# kicks that can kill an opponent



## onibaku (Aug 26, 2007)

I want to know more about kicks that does deadly damage. If that kick is better if you jump or just standing


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## aplonis (Aug 26, 2007)

I can't imagine that you'll find any reliable stastical data on this question...at least not that anyone currently out of jail will be willing to admit to.

I assume you are wanting to know for the sake of humanitarian avoidance, yes? For that all you need is a copy of Grey's Anatomy and very little imagination. Just thumb through it, noting the vital organs and such. Then ask yourself questions like these?

Q1. How hard must I not kick the floating ribs so as to avoid stoving the jagged end of a broken one into the lung?

Q2. How hard must I not kick snap kick straight upwards into the chin so as to avoid separating the vertabrae of the neck?

Q3. At what angle must I not shatter a femur so as to avoid a fatal nick to the femoral artery?

Q4. Where must I not hook kick so as to avoid rupturing a kidney?

Basically, just look at the rules for tournament sparring and avoid doing whatever is most stringently outlawed.

I do mostly TKD. But anatomy is the same for every MA. You should want to know such things primarily so as to avoid them. Unless, that is, you are confronted by an armed opponent on the street, or several of them, whereupon all such courtesies are to be prudently laid aside.


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## Kacey (Aug 26, 2007)

onibaku said:


> I want to know more about kicks that does deadly damage. If that kick is better if you jump or just standing



According to your profile, you have a black belt in karate, and have studied or are interested in Hung Gar, Hwa Rang Do, Iaido / Kendo / Kenjutsu, J.K.D., Karate, Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do... how is it that with such rank and wide-ranging experience you do not already know this?


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 26, 2007)

onibaku said:


> I want to know more about kicks that does deadly damage. If that kick is better if you jump or just standing



Any kick will kill you.  If done by the right person, at the right target with the right power and tool.

I look forward to your answer to Kacey's question.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 26, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Any kick will kill you.  If done by the right person, at the right target with the right power and tool.


Exactly.



> I look forward to your answer to Kacey's question.


So do I.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 26, 2007)

Kacey said:


> According to your profile, you have a black belt in karate, and have studied or are interested in Hung Gar, Hwa Rang Do, Iaido / Kendo / Kenjutsu, J.K.D., Karate, Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do... how is it that with such rank and wide-ranging experience you do not already know this?


Nice catch Kacey... onibaku your answer?

Just out of curiosity... _what_ (specific type)  Karate do you have a BB in?


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## elder999 (Aug 26, 2007)

onibaku said:


> I want to know more about kicks that does deadly damage. If that kick is better if you jump or just standing


 

Well, my deadliest one is a downward stomp on a prostate assailants head or throat-generally, jumping is unecessary for that one, no matter how many times I've enjoyed the Bruce vs. Bob Wall fight in _Enter the Dragon._ :lol:


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2007)

I would say a stromp to the thoat while the person is down would do alot of damage and possibly kill them.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 26, 2007)

I could slightly nudge someone with my toe, off the edge of a cliff and kill him dead.:ultracool
Sean


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## Lisa (Aug 26, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Any kick will kill you.  If done by the right person, at the right target with the right power and tool.



This is very true.  The kick is only good if the one doing the kick has enough skill to make it deadly.


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## onibaku (Aug 26, 2007)

I'm just asking for your opinion


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## Boomer (Aug 26, 2007)

ooh...oooh....I got one!  I learned one from Ed Norton in American History X, he makes this guy bite the curb of a sidewalk, then stomps his neck.


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## jks9199 (Aug 26, 2007)

onibaku said:


> I'm just asking for your opinion


And, given what little I've seen of your posts so far...

I'm not going to give you my opinion.  I don't trust you or your motives...


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## chinto (Aug 26, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Any kick will kill you. If done by the right person, at the right target with the right power and tool.
> 
> I look forward to your answer to Kacey's question.


 

I have to agree with this statement.   I also have to wonder with your profile how you would NOT know this information.


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## Doc_Jude (Aug 27, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Well, my deadliest one is a downward stomp on a prostate assailants head or throat-generally, jumping is unecessary for that one, no matter how many times I've enjoyed the Bruce vs. Bob Wall fight in _Enter the Dragon._ :lol:



"prostate assailants"???


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 27, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> "prostate assailants"???



Now that's gotta kill!


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## elder999 (Aug 27, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> "prostate assailants"???


 

Yeah, that's me-always in too much of a hurry to check spelling or use the quote function.....er..I meant "prostrate," obviously....kind of funny, though-had  my prostate assailed by the doc just last month..:lol:


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## CoryKS (Aug 27, 2007)

"Prostate Assailants" would be a great name for a band.


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## elder999 (Aug 27, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> "Prostate Assailants" would be a great name for a band.


 

Oooh, I know, I know-_Dr. Feelbad, and the Prostrate Assailants._:lol:


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## theletch1 (Aug 27, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Oooh, I know, I know-_Dr. Feelbad, and the Prostrate Assailants._:lol:


Yeah, I've heard of them somewhere put can't *put my finger* on where.


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## chinto (Aug 28, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> "prostate assailants"???


 

Now that has to be one dangerous assailent!!!  .. I dont think I want to know how that comes about though!!! :uhoh:

LOL>.... gota say.. I cant spell even with a dictioninareee  so I cant critisize .....


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## chinto (Aug 28, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Oooh, I know, I know-_Dr. Feelbad, and the Prostrate Assailants._:lol:


 

ohh ya..dont forget their number one greatest hit!! that is " now bend over and spred em." fallowed by "please turn your head and cough" 

LOL:roflmao::roflmao:


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## chinto (Aug 28, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Yeah, I've heard of them somewhere put can't *put my finger* on where.


 


Y I K E S ! !


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## Doc_Jude (Aug 28, 2007)

Jeee-zus, this is the best thread drift I've seen in a while. Classic.

"Prostate Assailants". I love it!


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## chinto (Aug 29, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> Jeee-zus, this is the best thread drift I've seen in a while. Classic.
> 
> "Prostate Assailants". I love it!


 

to Quote Mike Row from "Dirty Jobs"... "OH GOD!" ( as the sewage comes out right by him in the sanfrancisco sewer......)  LOL


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## Zero (Aug 29, 2007)

"prostate assailants"???[/quote]
Hehe!! Classic!! Don't ever spar with Elder999 - if you value your prostate!! Sounds nasty!


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## chinto (Aug 30, 2007)

Zero said:


> "prostate assailants"???


Hehe!! Classic!! Don't ever spar with Elder999 - if you value your prostate!! Sounds nasty![/quote]


hmm yes but what if the sparring partner for elder999 turns out to be female?? what differnt technique will he use... wait.. we may not want to know :erg:

LOL


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## Last Fearner (Aug 31, 2007)

onibaku said:


> I want to know more about kicks that does deadly damage.


 
I can't think of a more irresponsible thing to do than to fulfill such a request of this nature online.

With all the terrorists I see on the news practicing Martial Art kicks, and wanting to learn what we do, to all the gangbangers who would love to back up their criminal activities with deadly kicks, to the average goof-ball who does not have the patience, dedication, and discipline to learn the Martial Art from a genuine instructor who knows better than to answer this question in the first week, month, year of training.



Kacey said:


> According to your profile, you have a black belt in karate, and have studied or are interested in Hung Gar, Hwa Rang Do, Iaido / Kendo / Kenjutsu, J.K.D., Karate, Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do... how is it that with such rank and wide-ranging experience you do not already know this?


 
Thank you for challenging this, Kacey! 



jks9199 said:


> And, given what little I've seen of your posts so far...
> 
> I'm not going to give you my opinion. I don't trust you or your motives...


A very bold and brave thing to say, and I concur 100%  My respect to you for saying so!

onibaku, my advice to you is to respect your instructor and your art by asking these specific kinds of questions to the proper people, at the appropriate time - - not on an open, internet forum.

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart


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## chinto (Sep 1, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> I can't think of a more irresponsible thing to do than to fulfill such a request of this nature online.
> 
> With all the terrorists I see on the news practicing Martial Art kicks, and wanting to learn what we do, to all the gangbangers who would love to back up their criminal activities with deadly kicks, to the average goof-ball who does not have the patience, dedication, and discipline to learn the Martial Art from a genuine instructor who knows better than to answer this question in the first week, month, year of training.
> 
> ...


 

yep look at his other post/question.. I personaly doubt he has any training in martial arts.. or if he does,he is very very new to it by the question.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 1, 2007)

I would sadly but wholeheartedly concur with what *Kacey* and *LF* pointed out so well.  

Not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with being new to the arts or even in trying to sound lke you know what you're talking about, of course.

In the first case, we all start somewhere and being a beginner is one thing that _always_ passes .  

In the second, it is one thing to be able to 'talk the talk' for a post or two, quite another to try and hold a debate with people who really are experienced .

*Oni*, if it's simply that you didn't want to feel out of your depth and so pretended greater experience than you do, don't worry about it; that sort of thing can be forgiven if admitted.  Maintaining a deception on the other hand is a sure-fire way not to have an enjoyable residence as a member.

From your posts elsewhere, particularly your views on kata, I would suspect that you could really benefit from associating more with people like you'll find here at MT.  Learning comes in many forms but one of the best is found in listening to those who have gone before and know of what they speak.


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## thetruth (Sep 4, 2007)

aplonis said:


> Q1. How hard must I not kick the floating ribs so as to avoid stoving the jagged end of a broken one into the lung?
> 
> Q2. How hard must I not kick snap kick straight upwards into the chin so as to avoid separating the vertabrae of the neck?
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone has such control that they could perform any of the above techniques and only harm their assailant enough to end the fight but not cause serious damage.  I'd also be interested to meet someone who can shatter a femur with a kick too.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 4, 2007)

thetruth said:


> I'd also be interested to meet someone who can shatter a femur with a kick too.



I dont do seminars. :wink1:


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 4, 2007)

Yeah, I thought that looked funny. 
Try breaking the tibia/fibula before you try to jump right up to one of the strongest bones in the body.


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## Tez3 (Sep 4, 2007)

thetruth said:


> I don't think anyone has such control that they could perform any of the above techniques and only harm their assailant enough to end the fight but not cause serious damage. *I'd also be* *interested to meet someone who can shatter a femur with a kick too.*
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
Ross Pettifer in his fight against Rob Evans


http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4990






 
It says ankle smash but it wasn't his ankle it was his femur.


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## thetruth (Sep 5, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Ross Pettifer in his fight against Rob Evans
> 
> 
> http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4990
> ...



No it wasn't, it was both his tibia and fibula and the person who performed the kick broke their leg.  The above discussion was regarding someone kicking someones thigh and breaking the big bone in their upper leg.  I personally believe leg kicks in that sense belong only in the ring anyway.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2007)

thetruth said:


> No it wasn't, it was both his tibia and fibula and the person who performed the kick broke their leg. The above discussion was regarding someone kicking someones thigh and breaking the big bone in their upper leg. I personally believe leg kicks in that sense belong only in the ring anyway.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
You were there then and saw _both_ bones break? I assume too you know both the fighters and were with the medics?. 
i give you an example of  a bone in the leg being broken as you didn't seem to think it could be done and you come back saying oh well it wasn't the right bone. I give up.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 5, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> You were there then and saw _both_ bones break? I assume too you know both the fighters and were with the medics?.
> i give you an example of  a bone in the leg being broken as you didn't seem to think it could be done and you come back saying oh well it wasn't the right bone. I give up.



Major bones of the leg:
Thigh-Femur
Knee - Patella
Lower leg/shin - Tibia & Fibula







& just an FYI, there is NO WAY for the ankle to fold like that, above the ankle joint, without a tib/fib fracture. It's the same as the forearm. If only the radius is fractured, the ulna would still hold the arm straight, it wouldn't  fold as we saw in the vid where the fighter stepped back and the leg wouldn't bear any weight w/o folding.

This is most basic biology. I don't need to be there to recognize the injury or the mechanism of injury.


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## elder999 (Sep 5, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> This is most basic biology. I don't need to be there to recognize the injury or the mechanism of injury.


 
That's an excellent explanation of what occurred.

I think it might be possible, though, to break a hip at the femoral neck with a kick, but it would be wholly dependent upon the health of the target-or lack of it-and proper positioning. Not exactly something one could rely upon, but it could happen.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2007)

Rob says thanks for the information, he didn't realise that the doctors had got it so wrong. After all it was only _his _leg.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 5, 2007)

elder999 said:


> That's an excellent explanation of what occurred.
> 
> I think it might be possible, though, to break a hip at the femoral neck with a kick, but it would be wholly dependent upon the health of the target-or lack of it-and proper positioning. Not exactly something one could rely upon, but it could happen.



Cosidering that the femoral neck is so surrounded by muscle/connective tissues and of course, the pelvis, I think that the limited access to that portion of the femur would pretty much rule out the chance. This kind of fracture almost always occurs in the elderly incurred during a fall. Kind of a "I've fallen & I can't get up/broke my hip" scenario. Of course, a strong enough kick to the upper portion of the femur could result in a fracture that close to the hip joint, though I'm inclined to believe that in most healthy adults, the hip would dislocate before the femur would break. 

You're making me think, *elder999*, & I don't like it one bit. No, sir. Now I'm going to disturb my dusty medical library (one shelf).


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 5, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Rob says thanks for the information, he didn't realise that the doctors had got it so wrong. After all it was only _his _leg.



If the fighter that suffered a tib/fib fracture is under the impression that he fractured his femur, then he was either misinformed, or he's ignorant of basic anatomy. If you believe him after seeing this video, I suggest you consult a doctor or a medical professional that you trust, since you don't trust us.


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## elder999 (Sep 5, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> Cosidering that the femoral neck is so surrounded by muscle/connective tissues and of course, the pelvis, I think that the limited access to that portion of the femur would pretty much rule out the chance. This kind of fracture almost always occurs in the elderly incurred during a fall. Kind of a "I've fallen & I can't get up/broke my hip" scenario. Of course, a strong enough kick to the upper portion of the femur could result in a fracture that close to the hip joint, though I'm inclined to believe that in most healthy adults, the hip would dislocate before the femur would break.
> 
> You're making me think, *elder999*, & I don't like it one bit. No, sir. Now I'm going to disturb my dusty medical library (one shelf).


 
I said, considering the health of the target-degenerative stress fracture at the femoral neck occurs for athletes at relatively young ages, resulting in hip replacement-see several judo people, Chuck Norris, Bo Jackson (remember, "Bo knows whatever?") and Hulk Hogan. Prior to their hip replacement, they were all vulnerable to just the scenario you've mentioned (I've fallen, and I can't get up) and it consequently wouldn't take much of a powerful kick to cause that kind of damage....though why one would kick someone there in a self-defense situation escapes me.....unless, of course, they trained exclusively in Muay Thai, and kicked there out of habit-though they'd be more likely to aim for the nerves, a little lower, it still might be enough to cause a break at the femoral neck, dependent upon the other variable, which would be the positioning/stress of the target at the time the kick landed.....
....all speculation on my part, but I think it's possible-just not very likely.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 5, 2007)

elder999 said:


> I said, considering the health of the target-degenerative stress fracture at the femoral neck occurs for athletes at relatively young ages, resulting in hip replacement-see several judo people, Chuck Norris, Bo Jackson (remember, "Bo knows whatever?") and Hulk Hogan[...]all speculation on my part, but I think it's possible-just not very likely.



Agreed.


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## elder999 (Sep 5, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> Agreed.


 
Of course, the odds of a break are increased by a stomp to the femur of a _prostrate_ assailant.....:lol:


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 6, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Of course, the odds of a break are increased by a stomp to the femur of a _*prostrate*_ assailant.....:lol:



Of all the people that wouldn't let that die, I never thought it would've been you.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 6, 2007)

What can *THE BROWN* do for you?


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## Last Fearner (Sep 6, 2007)

thetruth said:


> I don't think anyone has such control that they could perform any of the above techniques and only harm their assailant enough to end the fight but not cause serious damage.


Well, truth, you might not "think" anyone has such control, but the truth is that many of us do.



thetruth said:


> I'd also be interested to meet someone who can shatter a femur with a kick too.


Allow me to introduce myself..... I am Chief Master D. J. Eisenhart. :mst:

If you would prefer to meet in person, call my school for an appointment. 



Doc_Jude said:


> Yeah, I thought that looked funny.
> Try breaking the tibia/fibula before you try to jump right up to one of the strongest bones in the body.


That is the general idea, Doc. First you learn the power of a kick to break smaller bones, then work your way up to being able to break larger bones. Once you have attained the ability to do certain kicks correctly, there is not any bone, in any human body - - no matter what the condition of the bone or the surrounding muscle, that can not be broken. Excessive fat on a morbidly obese person might make access to some bones difficult, but alternate bones and joints would then be targeted.

The femur is not as difficult to break with a kick as some non-kickers might think. From a medical standpoint, all one needs to do is consult medical journals and records to see how many femurs have been broken over the years in accidents (automobile, mountain climbing, sports: football, soccer, etc.). Don't think for a moment that I can not generate sufficient power to destroy a femur, nor that it would be too difficult to target and break instead of popping the hip or knee (either of which might occur as well).  This is exactly what we train to do in Taekwondo, and many of us are quite capable of doing it very well.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 6, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> First you learn the power of a kick to break smaller bones, then work your way up to being able to break larger bones. Once you have attained the ability to do certain kicks correctly, there is not any bone, in any human body - - no matter what the condition of the bone or the surrounding muscle, that can not be broken. Excessive fat on a morbidly obese person might make access to some bones difficult, but alternate bones and joints would then be targeted.
> The femur is not as difficult to break with a kick as some non-kickers might think. From a medical standpoint, all one needs to do is consult medical journals and records to see how many femurs have been broken over the years in accidents (automobile, mountain climbing, sports: football, soccer, etc.). Don't think for a moment that I can not generate sufficient power to destroy a femur, nor that it would be too difficult to target and break instead of popping the hip or knee (either of which might occur as well).  This is exactly what we train to do in Taekwondo, and many of us are quite capable of doing it very well.



I'm more than familiar with broken bones, but that's not the point. We can see that bones are easily broken, as the above video proves. The kicker broke two of his own bones with one blow. What skill...

& for the record, I "don't think for a moment" about anyone here. I do my damndest to never assume that I know someone else's skills from their internet social skills.

Back to the subject of training to break "any bone" in the body... many folks train to NOT be broken, whether through conditioning, flexibility, or movement. That kind of hard training can easily turn into a Rock VS Hard Place scenario. Personally, I don't train to break bones, there are much more vulnerable structures that I can damage to the same effect. Attacks to muscles, nerves, connective tissues, organs, and joints, for example.

JMO, of course...


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## Last Fearner (Sep 8, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> I do my damndest to never assume that I know someone else's skills from their internet social skills.


 
Ouch!  That sounds like a jab.

Do you mean to imply that my natural cheery disposition is not being accurately reflected in my internet social skills once again!?! :ultracool



Doc_Jude said:


> & for the record, I "don't think for a moment" about anyone here.


Well, perhaps not anyone specifically, but when "thetruth" said this....



thetruth said:


> I'd also be interested to meet someone who can shatter a femur with a kick too.


 
.... and you replied with this....



Doc_Jude said:


> Yeah, I thought that looked funny.
> Try breaking the tibia/fibula before you try to jump right up to one of the strongest bones in the body.


 
It just sounded to me like you were agreeing that it would be rare, if not unheard of to meet someone who could kick hard enough to break the femur.  I'm simply saying that there are many out there who can (mostly in kicking systems like Taekwondo), and I happen to be one of them.  I'm not special in that way, but I am qualifying my comments by relating my personal training abilities.

If you and "thetruth" are not primarily kickers, and you don't train to break bones, then I can understand your doubts.  However, to dismiss the notion that it can be done, or even that it is relatively easy for someone who is specifically trained to do it seems to me to be an assumption about a whole lot of people and their skills.  No offense intended.  I just wanted to set the record straight about when you said, "Yeah, I thought that looked funny."  Perhaps I misunderstood what you thought looked funny, but it sounded like you were supporting "thetruth's" comment about wanting to meet someone who could break a femur. :idunno:



Doc_Jude said:


> Back to the subject of training to break "any bone" in the body... many folks train to NOT be broken, whether through conditioning, flexibility, or movement.


 
While we can toughen our bodies to shield against medium power attacks, and learn to position and move them to prevent breaking, I have yet to find anyone, or any method of training which will make the body tough enough to stop a full power kick from breaking the bones within.  That's like training to be able to stand in front of a speeding locomotive, and expect no serious injury.



Doc_Jude said:


> Personally, I don't train to break bones,


 
Understood.



Doc_Jude said:


> there are much more vulnerable structures that I can damage to the same effect. Attacks to muscles, nerves, connective tissues, organs, and joints, for example.


 
Yes, I am aware of those techniques and targets as well, and train on that quite often.  However, since the comments at hand were not about alternative methods of self defense, but the likely-hood of someone being able to break a femur with a kick, my response was aligned with that topic.


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## Last Fearner (Sep 8, 2007)

thetruth said:


> No it wasn't, it was both his tibia and fibula and the person who performed the kick broke their leg. The above discussion was regarding someone kicking someones thigh and breaking the big bone in their upper leg.


 
I just took a look at that video for the first time, and I would have to agree with the appearances that both the tibia and fibula broke from the impact on the opponents leg as he shielded against the kick.  The attacker's leg folded at what appeared to be 3 to 6 inches above the ankle which indicated it wasn't an ankle injury, but it was broken well below the knee.  The break was sufficient enough to cause a complete bend when it folded, thus it appears to have been both bones in the lower leg that snapped.

In any case, this being the result of a poorly executed attack rather than someone attacking the femur with a kick, it tends to support the argument against the Muay Thai philosophy of kicking with the shin for power rather than the instep or ball as in Taekwondo.  I would still be interested in any videos that show a kick (such as a side kick) attacking the femur about mid-way between the knee and the hip.


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## Tez3 (Sep 8, 2007)

The truth about the kick that broke Robs leg was that it was a freak accident, what you see on the video distorts the actual break, it wasn't nearly as bad as it appears. The bone broken gave way when Rob stood on it not when he was kicked. It was cracked when Rob blocked Ross' kick then broke all the way when Rob put his leg on the floor. The sound of it giving way could be heard clearly. Last Fearner is quite correct in that it wasn't a good kick. The video however is distorting it quite badly.


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## theletch1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> The truth about the kick that broke Robs leg was that it was a freak accident, what you see on the video distorts the actual break, it wasn't nearly as bad as it appears. The bone broken gave way when Rob stood on it not when he was kicked. It was cracked when Rob blocked Ross' kick then broke all the way when Rob put his leg on the floor. The sound of it giving way could be heard clearly. Last Fearner is quite correct in that it wasn't a good kick. The video however is distorting it quite badly.


Regardless of the details of the break, Tez, I cringe everytime I see that video.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 8, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> The truth about the kick that broke Robs leg was that it was a freak accident, what you see on the video distorts the actual break, it wasn't nearly as bad as it appears. The bone broken gave way when Rob stood on it not when he was kicked. It was cracked when Rob blocked Ross' kick then broke all the way when Rob put his leg on the floor. The sound of it giving way could be heard clearly. Last Fearner is quite correct in that it wasn't a good kick. The video however is distorting it quite badly.



It looks to me that it was broken upon the kick but didn't fold until he tried to bear weight with the injured leg. When he makes contact, it definitely looks as if the leg bent forward in an unnatural way as the kick was retracted. 
Watch the vid again, you can see it. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3tU2LglxnI

here too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMJgBW_3Dm4

Two vids on YouTube... I wonder how many times it happens that don't make it to the Internet? Maybe it's not as freak an accident as one might think...


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 8, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> Ouch!  That sounds like a jab.
> 
> Do you mean to imply that my natural cheery disposition is not being accurately reflected in my internet social skills once again!?! :ultracool



Nothing was meant by it at all. Just my point that often things are misconstrued over this medium. A facetious remark on my part is taken as a personal attack... who hasn't dealt with that?  :angel:


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## Big Don (Sep 8, 2007)

Given a choice, I prefer to use a kick that makes them _wish_ they were dead...


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 9, 2007)

Big Don said:


> Given a choice, I prefer to use a kick that makes them _wish_ they were dead...



I can get behind that... :highfive:


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 9, 2007)

OK FOLKS let me put it to you in its true value

any kick that connects with force can kill as a result of complications to the nervous system. the circulatory system. or the a few other systems. it can be be accident or on purpose but it happens


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 9, 2007)

Those videos! Ew.  Toe curling or what?!


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## chinto (Sep 10, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> Well, truth, you might not "think" anyone has such control, but the truth is that many of us do.
> 
> 
> Allow me to introduce myself..... I am Chief Master D. J. Eisenhart. :mst:
> ...


 

as some one who has treated such accedents as  you mentioned I can tell you that a femur is very dificult to brake compared to any other bone in the body.  the knee is much more vulnerable, as is the ankle and tib/fib and pelvic gurdle and a lot of other bones. so I would say if its for real and in combat, kicking the femur rather then the knee or other targets is less then practical or smart. ( this from an Ex-EMT)  take my word for it, its easier to brake all the other bones then the femur. 
Take out a knee is just as effective and efficent at stoping some one in any situation.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 10, 2007)

chinto said:


> as some one who has treated such accedents as  you mentioned I can tell you that a femur is very dificult to brake compared to any other bone in the body.  the knee is much more vulnerable, as is the ankle and tib/fib and pelvic gurdle and a lot of other bones. so I would say if its for real and in combat, kicking the femur rather then the knee or other targets is less then practical or smart. ( this from an Ex-EMT)  take my word for it, its easier to brake all the other bones then the femur.
> Take out a knee is just as effective and efficent at stoping some one in any situation.



I absolutely agree. The only bone that I would attack the femur with intent to break it would be the calcaneus, or heel. 
Though this, in general, violates my "hard weapon = soft target / soft weapon = hard target" rule. But for power kicks like this, I'd trust a kick using the heel over a shin kick to attain the result I want & still have me come out injury free in the end.


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## Last Fearner (Sep 10, 2007)

chinto said:


> take my word for it, its easier to brake all the other bones then the femur.
> Take out a knee is just as effective and efficent at stoping some one in any situation.


 
Got a news flash for ya.  I've been studying the Martial Art for 42 years, and teaching for nearly 30.  I already know that the femur is the largest and most difficult bone to break, and that breaking a knee, elbow, rib, tibia, fibula, radius, ulna or even humerus would be easier, so you're not telling me anything new.

However, since the discussion wasn't about picking easier targets, nor what I would choose to do to be more effective in stopping someone in the street (but thanks for the advice! :ultracool), I was addressing the question about the likelihood that the femur could be broken with a kick - - and yes, it can be done with relative accuracy and consistency if you know how, and have the power in your kick.

If anyone wants to see the number of discussions about broken femurs, just do an internet search (Google other search engine) with the key words "broken femur."  You will find incidents from sports, roller blading, skate-boarding, bicycle and motorcycle accidents, and on and on.  The femur does get broken quite often, and a powerful kick directed through the center will snap it just the same.

You know, you can tear down a ten story building by hand, or demolish it with cranes and a wrecking ball, but if you've got the explosives, and you know where to place the charges, you can bring it down much quicker and easier with one huge blast!  I don't mind delivering a little extra power to a femur rather than popping the knee joint - - makes no difference to me.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 10, 2007)

... & humility is still as abundant as ever in the martial arts community 



> However, since the discussion wasn't about picking easier targets...



Actually, the discussion is titled "Kicks that can Kill an Opponent". Why don't we move the bone-breaking kick discussion, since any broken bone below the waist will most likely NOT produce a timely death.


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## thetruth (Sep 10, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> Well, truth, you might not "think" anyone has such control, but the truth is that many of us do.
> 
> 
> Allow me to introduce myself..... I am Chief Master D. J. Eisenhart. :mst:
> ...



I think we're a little far apart for me to be popping in to your school.  If you say you can do these things then good for you.  I have trained with some very capable instructors and am yet to find one who would suggest attacking the femur assuming it would break (knees yes, even shins but not thighs).  I'm happy to believe you as it makes zero difference to me whether you can or cannot do it

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 10, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> ... & humility is still as abundant as ever in the martial arts community
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the discussion is titled "Kicks that can Kill an Opponent". Why don't we move the bone-breaking kick discussion, since any broken bone below the waist will most likely NOT produce a timely death.



Actually, I'm with LF here.

I also think that a broken femur has got a shot at killing your opponent.


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## theletch1 (Sep 10, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> ... & humility is still as abundant as ever in the martial arts community
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the discussion is titled "Kicks that can Kill an Opponent". Why don't we move the bone-breaking kick discussion, since any broken bone below the waist will most likely NOT produce a timely death.


It is, indeed, kicks that can kill an opponent.  I think the OP was, well, I don't really know what he was thinking but it certainly wasn't just which bones are easier to break.  So, anyone have a kick in mind that can really kill or do we continue this circular discussion for another 10 or so pages?


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 10, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Any kick will kill you.  If done by the right person, at the right target with the right power and tool.



Letch, there you go.


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## Tez3 (Sep 10, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Regardless of the details of the break, Tez, I cringe everytime I see that video.


 
As I said you should have heard it! Serious accidents _are very rare_ in MMA thankfully.

A kick to injure a chap is Kingeri!


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## exile (Sep 10, 2007)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please folks, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Bob Levine
-MT Moderator-


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 10, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Actually, I'm with LF here.
> 
> I also think that a broken femur has got a shot at killing your opponent.



Okay. Please explain for us how breaking someone's femur would cause death during a hand to hand conflict. Because that's what we're talking about, not some lucky chance bone fragment _maybe_ nicking the femoral artery or something like that.


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## Last Fearner (Sep 10, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> ... & humility is still as abundant as ever in the martial arts community


Apparently, so is disrespect toward instructors. This is an open conversation to extract information, knowledge and share experience. I save humility for street conversations, but here I think we can dispense with such notions. I am not stating what I can do for bragging purposes, but I believe there are many others who can do it as well. I'm simply answering question that was raised about the subject of breaking femurs, and using my own personal training and experience to back up what I say.



Doc_Jude said:


> Actually, the discussion is titled "Kicks that can Kill an Opponent". Why don't we move the bone-breaking kick discussion, since any broken bone below the waist will most likely NOT produce a timely death.


Well, Doc, we could do that, but I have made it clear that the OP was an unreasonable request of deadly information in my opinion, and others have questioned the Original Poster's motives who does not even seem to be participating in the thread any more. Thus, I would hope we have moved on from that.  Considering the many other people here (yourself included) who have debated the issue of the femur, a video about a lower leg break in competion, and "prostrate assailants," I take your sudden desire to drop the issue with a grain of salt.

Since someone else brought up the allegation that a person could die from bleeding due to the severe nature of the wound created by breaking the femur (the OP did not specify how long for a person to die from the kick), I believe discussing the possibility or feasibility of making a particular kick, or damaging wound work, is well within the framework of the OP. One could continue to discuss that it might not be a 'one-shot' kick that kills an opponent, but rather a series of techniques to set up the kill, thus discussing which kicks could lead into a fatal attack (such as a femur break) is part of this discussion.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 11, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> Apparently, so is disrespect toward instructors. This is an open conversation to extract information, knowledge and share experience. I save humility for street conversations, but here I think we can dispense with such notions. I am not stating what I can do for bragging purposes, but I believe there are many others who can do it as well. I'm simply answering question that was raised about the subject of breaking femurs, and using my own personal training and experience to back up what I say.



How many femurs have you broken? 



Last Fearner said:


> Well, Doc, we could do that, but I have made it clear that the OP was an unreasonable request of deadly information in my opinion, and others have questioned the Original Poster's motives who does not even seem to be participating in the thread any more. Thus, I would hope we have moved on from that.  Considering the many other people here (yourself included) who have debated the issue of the femur, a video about a lower leg break in competion, and "prostrate assailants," I take your sudden desire to drop the issue with a grain of salt.
> 
> Since someone else brought up the allegation that a person could die from bleeding due to the severe nature of the wound created by breaking the femur (the OP did not specify how long for a person to die from the kick), I believe discussing the possibility or feasibility of making a particular kick, or damaging wound work, is well within the framework of the OP. One could continue to discuss that it might not be a 'one-shot' kick that kills an opponent, but rather a series of techniques to set up the kill, thus discussing which kicks could lead into a fatal attack (such as a femur break) is part of this discussion.



Do you have any data on femur fractures (compound or otherwise) leading to fatalities? I'd love to see it.


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## chinto (Sep 11, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> Got a news flash for ya. I've been studying the Martial Art for 42 years, and teaching for nearly 30. I already know that the femur is the largest and most difficult bone to break, and that breaking a knee, elbow, rib, tibia, fibula, radius, ulna or even humerus would be easier, so you're not telling me anything new.
> 
> However, since the discussion wasn't about picking easier targets, nor what I would choose to do to be more effective in stopping someone in the street (but thanks for the advice! :ultracool), I was addressing the question about the likelihood that the femur could be broken with a kick - - and yes, it can be done with relative accuracy and consistency if you know how, and have the power in your kick.
> 
> ...


 
ehh yes and no, as if they are runners and or say horse back riders the femer is harder to brake then say an office worker. but I do understand what you are saying. 
My  Point was that a femur was not a good choice if its for keeps. the K.I.S.S. princile is a thing that favors survival.  IE as in what will work just about no matter what.  

But I understand what you are saying, as a Broken Femur is a Life Threatening situation if not treated properly.


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## chinto (Sep 11, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Actually, I'm with LF here.
> 
> I also think that a broken femur has got a shot at killing your opponent.


 

YES a broken femur is a life threatening situation as it can lacerate the femural artery.... that and shock can kill. but there are a lot of other things that could be kicked or punched that would be a more sure taget.


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## chinto (Sep 11, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> How many femurs have you broken?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any data on femur fractures (compound or otherwise) leading to fatalities? I'd love to see it.


 

any laceration of the femural artery is life theatening... that is why EMT's and other medical professionals treat it as a major injury.  

personaly I would not pick the femur for targeting for a brake... it is the hardest bone in the body to brake. there  are a lot of more vulnerably and efficent targets to pick for attack.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 11, 2007)

chinto said:


> any laceration of the femural artery is life theatening... that is why EMT's and other medical professionals treat it as a major injury.
> 
> personaly I would not pick the femur for targeting for a brake... it is the hardest bone in the body to brake. there  are a lot of more vulnerably and efficent targets to pick for attack.



No, the temporal is hardest to break. It protects the inner ear. 

I'm familiar with the effects of femur fractures. What I am questioning is the practice of martial artists targeting the femur in order to effect a fracture or fatality.


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## Tez3 (Sep 11, 2007)

It is not the bleeding as such that will kill you ( though of course it can) it is the blood clot that can travel to the lungs or heart. Plus any bone that penetrates the skin is very dangerous.

I agree with LF, this discussion has taken a strange turn. I do regret mentioning the video now, I was there at ringside, I was there afterwards, I know what happened so don't appreciate people telling me I was wrong! And can I ask if 'brake' is an alternative spelling to 'break'? 

I would suggest the OP could well have been a trolling attempt and they are laughing their socks off at the moment.


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## Zero (Sep 11, 2007)

Last Fearner/Chief Master...? or whatever
_Apparently, so is disrespect toward instructors_

_-_ an instructor merits no further respect that anyone else, by default; they need to earn that either by their skill at imparting knowledge or their own fight record and/or ability.

_Got a news flash for ya. I've been studying the Martial Art for 42 years, and teaching for nearly 30. I already know that the femur is the largest and most difficult bone to break, and that breaking a knee, elbow, rib, tibia, fibula, radius, ulna or even humerus would be easier, so you're not telling me anything new.

However, since the discussion wasn't about picking easier targets, nor what I would choose to do to be more effective in stopping someone in the street (but thanks for the advice! ), I was addressing the question about the likelihood that the femur could be broken with a kick - - and yes, it can be done with relative accuracy *and consistency *if you know how, and have the power in your kick._

"With consistency"?? Aside from your years of training and instructing how much fight experience do you have - particularly full contact such as K1 or mma type experience?  How many femurs or other bones have you broken when fighting a resisting and able opponent by way of kicks?
Anything is possible (almost) in a fight, that goes without saying but I have not met tha man yet - and I have trained and fought some of the strongest and hardest fighters there are on a national and international level - who can consitently break a femur or bone of this type in competition or combat.

I can break a femur if you want to keep your leg in place when I do a downward stomp or axe-kick but aside froom freakish one-off femur breaks from muay-thai leg attacks etc good luck in a fight repeating this.

Which makes me think, despite your years devoted to the arts, that you're talking theoretical - please disuade me - but unless you've got some stats/experience to back these comments up they aren't worth much at all and are little use to anyone.


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## exile (Sep 11, 2007)

*Second Warning!*

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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 11, 2007)

> any laceration of the femural artery is life theatening... that is why EMT's and other medical professionals treat it as a major injury.





Doc_Jude said:


> I'm familiar with the effects of femur fractures. What I am questioning is the practice of martial artists targeting the femur in order to effect a fracture or fatality.



A contradiction?


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## Sukerkin (Sep 11, 2007)

Chaps, I think I'm failing to see what it is that has sparked your furore here.  Maybe I need to read the thread from the beginning .

Let's rephrase the apparent bone of contention (Yeah! Anatomy pun attack !) and see if peoples thirst for argument wanes somewhat.

I'm assuming that all who have made posts here are martial artists of considerable experience {tho' perhaps not many as long served as *LF* :sensei rei:}?

Taking that as a given, do any of us trully hold the conviction that you could not break such a bone if the circumstances presented themselves?  

Granted, when I had to fight in a life threatening situation I went for the much easier knee instead but I wouldn't categorically state that I couldn't have broken the thigh bone if that was the target I had.  I'd say that my chances would be much lower but I wouldn't put money on *not* being able to.

As *Exile* has strongly pointed out twice now, when debate of a technical point becomes an unseemly squabble then it is time to draw a breath and broaden focus again to recapture what the core of the discussion is attempting to achieve.

After all as the thread gets locked (and I guarantee it will if it continues the way it has) then no conclusion is reached and feathers remain ruffled needlessly.


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## chinto (Sep 11, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> It is not the bleeding as such that will kill you ( though of course it can) it is the blood clot that can travel to the lungs or heart. Plus any bone that penetrates the skin is very dangerous.
> 
> I agree with LF, this discussion has taken a strange turn. I do regret mentioning the video now, I was there at ringside, I was there afterwards, I know what happened so don't appreciate people telling me I was wrong! And can I ask if 'brake' is an alternative spelling to 'break'?
> 
> I would suggest the OP could well have been a trolling attempt and they are laughing their socks off at the moment.


 
actualy in a femur brake shock is a huge killer.  often the patent will go into shock .... and people shock kills. a femural artery bleed from the tib lacerating the artery will defenently couse shock and again.. depending on things you bleed out or shock kills you. 

however, I think brakeing the femur is the least likely of effective things to acomplish in a combat situation.  I AM NOT saying it can not be done, just that it is unlikely to be sucsessfull compared to  most other choices you would have.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 12, 2007)

Usually, people go into shock from a femur fracture from the pain. There is also a high chance of infection from a compound fracture, and even more pain. Exposed bone is very painful. 
I may be wrong, but I doubt that anyone here has ever broken someone else's femur with a kick. Maybe with a bat. It just doesn't happen very often. Most often when you see a femur fracture it's a "down & under" car accident injury, or a fall. It's not a common fight injury by any stretch of the imagination, since the femur needs to be stationary in order to deliver sufficient force to break it. 
I've never heard of it happening & no one should consider it a common fight injury, despite what people say on the internet. Besides, I believe that the original spirt of the thread, however inappropriate for this venue, was a discussion of attacks that produce a timely fatality, not an attack that will produce complications resulting in a fatality from shock or loss of blood volume or infection or embolism or whatever.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 12, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> A contradiction?



How so? Seriously...


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## chinto (Sep 12, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> Usually, people go into shock from a femur fracture from the pain. There is also a high chance of infection from a compound fracture, and even more pain. Exposed bone is very painful.
> I may be wrong, but I doubt that anyone here has ever broken someone else's femur with a kick. Maybe with a bat. It just doesn't happen very often. Most often when you see a femur fracture it's a "down & under" car accident injury, or a fall. It's not a common fight injury by any stretch of the imagination, since the femur needs to be stationary in order to deliver sufficient force to break it.
> I've never heard of it happening & no one should consider it a common fight injury, despite what people say on the internet. Besides, I believe that the original spirt of the thread, however inappropriate for this venue, was a discussion of attacks that produce a timely fatality, not an attack that will produce complications resulting in a fatality from shock or loss of blood volume or infection or embolism or whatever.


 
I would have to agree the pain is a major part of what couses the shock to set in. and I allso agree that a broken femur in a fight is a very rare injury as well. usualy a broken femur is the result of major trauma in a car accedent or some other  violent impact such as a fall from 20 feet or more.. that kind of thing. the femur is the hardest bone to brake after all..


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 12, 2007)

chinto said:


> I would have to agree the pain is a major part of what couses the shock to set in. and I allso agree that a broken femur in a fight is a very rare injury as well. usualy a broken femur is the result of major trauma in a car accedent or some other  violent impact such as a fall from 20 feet or more.. that kind of thing. the femur is the hardest bone to brake after all..



No it's not. The Temporal is hardest. Well, it's the hardest bone.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 12, 2007)

folks if you really want to kill someone with a kick, kick them in the groin hard enough and displace their testicles enough and shock sets in immediately and they die


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## chinto (Sep 13, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> No it's not. The Temporal is hardest. Well, it's the hardest bone.


ahh but it takes more force to brake the femur, at least that is what they tought and what I tended to see as an EMT back when I carried the little blue card.


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## Last Fearner (Sep 13, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> How many femurs have you broken?


Hmmm.  I would ordinarily expect such a question from a non-martial artist or even a low ranking color belt, but then....?



Doc_Jude said:


> Do you have any data on femur fractures (compound or otherwise) leading to fatalities? I'd love to see it.


Please do not use a quote from me, then ask for data about femur fractures that lead to fatalities.  I am not the one who suggested this.  I said that others brought up the allegation that a femur could lead to death, but my part in this conversation has simply been to help alleviate the doubt that a femur is so extremely difficult to break by those who are at a level of training where this is a snap (pun intended ).



Zero said:


> Last Fearner/Chief Master...? or whatever


whatever??  hmmmm.




Zero said:


> _-_ an instructor merits no further respect that anyone else, by default; they need to earn that either by their skill at imparting knowledge or their own fight record and/or ability.


http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=850226#post850226

Please, read it a time or two.  Perhaps you will understand.
 




Zero said:


> "With consistency"?? Aside from your years of training and instructing how much fight experience do you have -


lol - - actually, quite a bit (army, LEO, Security Work, Night Club Bouncer, and many encounters in civilian life).  I even chased a hotel thief through the streets of Seoul, Korea once, and physically subdued him. :ultracool




Zero said:


> particularly full contact such as K1 or mma type experience?


Ok, lets keep the humor out of this serious debate. :lfao:




Zero said:


> How many femurs or other bones have you broken when fighting a resisting and able opponent by way of kicks?


Ok..... here we go again.  All right, here is my answer.  Femurs: none.  However, I have broken ribs with a spin side kick (most of my fights are intended to be non-damaging).  I have had my own bones broken in accidents (ribs, collar, humerus, and a knee joint popped in wrestling), so I know what it feels like, and what level of force it took.  I've seen others get bones broken and noted the type of force.

Now, I have never broken anyone's finger in a fight, but I have been in control with a hold that could do it, and I am fairly familiar (through those years of training) about how much force it takes to break a finger.  In all of the street fights I have been in, I have never broken anyone's wrist, elbow, lower leg, or lower arm either, but I still teach students how to do it, what kind of force it would require, and tell them how easy it is to accomplish in a real fight.  Some fights are a struggle, and you never know what is going to happen.  Typically, I can not say, "In this fight, I am going to break the guys left ulna and radius, followed by his right femur."  However, I have been in plenty of real-life, struggling, resisting fights, where I had the justification to break any of those bones, and had the opponent incapacitated, under control, or aligned for just such a break at the blink of an eye.

You see, what you really need to understand (apparent by your questions) is that most instructors, high ranking Black Belts, Masters and Grandmasters have never broken all of the bones that they teach how to break.  We often teach how to gouge and injure eyes, but have never actually done it.  We teach how to collapse the trachea with a Hansonnal Bakkat Chigi (single knife-hand outward strike), but have never collapsed a trachea for real.  We teach hundreds, or even thousands of ways to kill an attacker, but have never killed anyone.  Does that mean that we don't know what we are talking about, or that the techniques we are teaching our students are ineffective and worthless?  Do you really believe that we are not capable of doing these things in an instant if we want to?

The fact is, the Martial Art knowledge has been created, tried and tested in real life and death combat by Masters long ago, and many time since.  They teach that knowledge to their students, and some become Masters of it to the satisfaction of the original warriors.  They pass on that knowledge to the next generation of disciples without ever having killed anyone or broken those bones themselves.

I can snap two or three #2 pencils at one time with my bare hands.  Do you really think I can not break someone's finger with the same force?  Do I have to break someone's finger for you to believe that I can do it, or are you just convinced that I am not fast enough or skilled enough to set up such a technique and make it work.  Well, that is what I train for, teach, and have been able to do in real life without actually breaking the bones.  The same goes for any other part of the body.

You say a person has to be stationary, or if the are able bodied and moving about in a fight, it would be too difficult.  We are not amateurs at this.  Most fights I have encountered have involved instances where the attacker is standing still, is within kicking range, is flat footed, knees at optimum angle for a femur break or a dislocated knee.  If my opponent is too mobile, then a strike to an area that incapacitates them is the set up that I do before breaking a bone.  I have the real-life experience, and years upon years of training to know how to manage a fight, and bring my opponent under control, injured, restrained, or incapacitated momentarily.  I know that I can have the two or three seconds it takes to aim accurately at the femur (or anywhere else) and not miss, because I have been in those situations many times before.  Just because I have not executed the finishing blow, does not mean that I could not have.

Of course the femur break is not very common in fight statistics, because it is more difficult than other options, so most would opt for the easier break or other technique.  For those of us who could break hundreds of femurs during hundreds of fights, we seldom get into fights, and have the skills to end the fight without resorting to such a drastic blow.  So forget the statistics, and the "have you done it."  The real question is, how hard is it for someone who is trained to that level.  Most novice would think that executing a flip, or a foot sweep, or a choke hold would be too difficult in a real fight with an able bodied resisting opponent.  However, experts have little problems doing these things for real.  How many necks have they snapped at the end of the choke hold?  Perhaps none.  Does this mean that they could not have easily snapped the neck?  NO!





Zero said:


> Anything is possible (almost) in a fight, that goes without saying but I have not met tha man yet - .....


I've already introduced myself, but we'll have to meet in person another time.




Zero said:


> - who can consitently break a femur or bone of this type in competition or combat.


Someday, you might become just such a person.  Then you'll have someone else questioning how you know you can do it.




Zero said:


> and I have trained and fought some of the strongest and hardest fighters there are on a national and international level...



I hope you meant you have "trained with," or do you mean you are their teacher?




Zero said:


> I can break a femur if you want to keep your leg in place when I do a downward stomp or axe-kick...


Ok, now here you say you can break the femur.  You can do it, but at your years of experience, and your rank and skill, are you really at the top of your game - better than most Black Belts and Masters?  If not, then don't you suppose that if you, at your level, can break a femur, then there are many more who can break it with ease, and know how to set up such a break in a real fight?  Perhaps these are just things you have not learned yet, or encountered in your experience thus far.





Zero said:


> Which makes me think, despite your years devoted to the arts, that you're talking theoretical - please disuade me...


Zero, I really don't intend to dissuade you.  I'll explain the truth about training, and power, how easily bones can break when you have that much power and accuracy in your technique, but I leave it to you to figure out over time.

I don't mean any disrespect to you, but I have had many students over the past few decades ask the same questions, but usually with a more respectful tone.  That's fine - - no big deal - - I don't really mind the questions as much as the assumptions on the part of those in early stages of training that they have it all figured out.  I know people don't like to hear the "rank issue" brought up, however, please understand that I do get a little frustrated, after this many years, having white belts, and green belts, and red belts with blacks stripes, and beginner Black Belts (especially some who have never studied Taekwondo) telling a 6th Degree Black Belt what he can and can not do, or how difficult it would be for him to do it.  We are not amateurs at this, and it's not like these things have not come up before.  Each person just has to learn it for themselves over time and with the guidance of a qualified instructor.

Therefore, lacking a face-to-face introduction, and seminar to answer these questions thoroughly, I'm going to leave it at that.

With respects,
Last Whatever

No, don't take my word for it over the internet, but at the same time, don't tell me that I am being theoretical and don't know what I'm talking about.


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## Zero (Sep 13, 2007)

Last Fearner

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions and skepticism.  First off just because of my rank in belt colour terms under goju ryu don't go writing me off on experience; I've only been studying karate for 3 years but have been fighting and competing for over 20 years in martial arts.  Since switching to karate I've beaten enough black belts and dans of various styles in points and particularly full contact tournaments and touring clubs to know that it's not the colour of the belt but the guy who's waist its around that counts.  I'm happy to fight anyone of any grade to prove the point (excluding 6ft8", 150kg Samoans - got the pulp beaten out of me that time so don't want a repeat of that!).

That aside, thanks again for explaining your background and more about bone breaks which does lend a lot of credibility to your previous comments (which did sound like a lot of hot gas), apologies for any spurious remarks! - however having also had bone breaks and broken others' bones when fighting and having full appreciation for the technique and power required to be generated I still doubt your claims on consistency regarding targeting out and breaking the femur in a fight or even in a defense situation. I also have military experience and combat training and have been both on the door and trained security personel (assistant, not course instructor though!) so I'm not coming at this from just a green belt position in goju.

If I am in your State I will if time allows look you up as I am, despite going off on rants now and then, open-minded and always open to learning.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 13, 2007)

Can't rep you right now, *LF* so I'll just say that your last post above was excellently constructed and got some core points across very well.


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Can't rep you right now, *LF* so I'll just say that your last post above was excellently constructed and got some core points across very well.


 
I can and did, totally agree with your comments above.


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## Doc_Jude (Sep 13, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> Hmmm.  I would ordinarily expect such a question from a non-martial artist or even a low ranking color belt, but then....?



... & I expect claims of being able to easily break femurs with kicks from non-practicing internet blowhards... but then...?



Last Fearner said:


> Ok..... here we go again. All right, here is my answer. Femurs: none.



As I expected. 



> However, I have broken ribs with a spin side kick (most of my fights are intended to be non-damaging). I have had my own bones broken in accidents (ribs, collar, humerus, and a knee joint popped in wrestling), so I know what it feels like, and what level of force it took.



Again, as I expected.



Last Fearner said:


> Now, I have never broken anyone's finger in a fight, but I have been in control with a hold that could do it, and I am fairly familiar (through those years of training) about how much force it takes to break a finger. In all of the street fights I have been in, I have never broken anyone's wrist, elbow, lower leg, or lower arm either, but I still teach students how to do it, what kind of force it would require, and tell them how easy it is to accomplish in a real fight. Some fights are a struggle, and you never know what is going to happen. Typically, I can not say, "In this fight, I am going to break the guys left ulna and radius, followed by his right femur." However, I have been in plenty of real-life, struggling, resisting fights, where I had the justification to break any of those bones, and had the opponent incapacitated, under control, or aligned for just such a break at the blink of an eye.
> 
> You see, what you really need to understand (apparent by your questions) is that most instructors, high ranking Black Belts, Masters and Grandmasters have never broken all of the bones that they teach how to break. We often teach how to gouge and injure eyes, but have never actually done it. We teach how to collapse the trachea with a Hansonnal Bakkat Chigi (single knife-hand outward strike), but have never collapsed a trachea for real. We teach hundreds, or even thousands of ways to kill an attacker, but have never killed anyone. Does that mean that we don't know what we are talking about, or that the techniques we are teaching our students are ineffective and worthless? Do you really believe that we are not capable of doing these things in an instant if we want to?



Anyone can break a finger. But how can you teach with so little experience, what will work to break bones? If you've never done it, then you can really only imagine what it will do.



> Of course the femur break is not very common in fight statistics, because it is more difficult than other options, so most would opt for the easier break or other technique. For those of us who could break hundreds of femurs during hundreds of fights, we seldom get into fights, and have the skills to end the fight without resorting to such a drastic blow. So forget the statistics, and the "have you done it." The real question is, how hard is it for someone who is trained to that level.



What level would that be? The level of Pure Imagination?

If you've never done it, even on accident, then maybe you should just drop the unsubstantiated claims of how easily you _*could*_ do it if you wanted to. It's like talking to Ashida Kim dim mak proponents.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 13, 2007)

*Doc*, advice on the internet is always worth precisely the value of what you paid for it but I can only recommend that perhaps a re-examination of the way you're approaching your argument would produce better results.

You've been here a couple of months now and have posted quite a bit, so you know that strong moderation is the order of the day here at MT.  Straying onto the grounds of what can very easily be construed as a personal attack will not serve your purpose.  Particularly when the implications of some of what you are saying, such as the need to actually break bones before you can teach about bone breaking techniques, are of dubious legality.

A subject you know well and are passionate about is one with which it is difficult to calm and circumspect sometimes, I know but sometimes quiet speach reaches ears that forceful words do not.


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2007)

I broke a girl's toes once! Well actually she broke them on me, kicked me and I blocked. there, you see that makes me sooo experienced rofl!

Kicks that kill... that's the subject matter, it's a peurile, tasteless and rather pointless subject matter to be quite honest. 
Shall we accept that kicks as with all other strikes, if done properly and to the right part of the anatomy will kill then ask ourselves why we are wasting time we will never get back asking a respected martial artist questions about whether he's ever actually broken bones? I know that if I stand on a railway line and a train comes it will run me over and I will be killed, I don't actually have to test that out to know it to be true. It's also so sensible that if someone tells me that I will believe them.

Can I suggest we take this discussion on a bit/close it down or no one bother posting again?

Perhaps we could instead discuss which kick we find the most effective for a. self defence    b. sparring or c. if we were challenged to an MMA fight which kicks would be consider the best to use from a prone position! Ok not a perfect question lol but a start perhaps..........?


anyone with a problem about my posts please feel free to pm me.


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## Last Fearner (Sep 13, 2007)

Zero said:


> Last Fearner
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions and skepticism.
> 
> apologies for any spurious remarks!


 
Zero,

Thank you for your very respectful reply. I accept your apology, and likewise, I apologize to you if I came on a bit too strong from the rank issue (some nights are worse than others for me as far as what stress of the day gets released on the ol' keyboard!)

Like some others in this discussion, I might not agree with what you say, or even how you say it, but I will defend your right to say it! Likewise, you might not agree with what I say or how I say it, but I'm still going to say it. 

I don't mean to dismiss your experience, knowledge and background at all. After all, I really don't know you. I agree that the belt around the waist does not absolutely determine knowledge and skill. There are those who have no belt, but are very skilled, and those who wear high ranking belts, but really don't know what they are talking about. I think we all have to get to know each other better to determine the reality of all that.



Zero said:


> If I am in your State I will if time allows look you up as I am, despite going off on rants now and then, open-minded and always open to learning.


I would love for you, or anyone else here from MT to stop by and visit my Dojang. You would be most welcome, and we could openly discuss many of these things. Just call first so I can be sure my schedule is clear. :ultracool

Last Fearner

Thanks to others for their positive comments. I appreciate your support and respect your opinions as well.


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## Last Fearner (Sep 14, 2007)

Hey, what's up Doc?

I want to start this post by saying that I think much of this discord comes from the impersonal medium of the internet that does not always convey points well, and I am not the best at expressing myself in quick posts. I understand your skepticism, but there are answers to your questions which might or might not satisfy your uncertainty, but the more you study the subject, the clearer it becomes.



Doc_Jude said:


> ... & I expect claims of being able to easily break femurs with kicks from non-practicing internet blowhards... but then...?


 
Doc, I'm trying to be truthful with you, and even helpful, but I think you went a bit to far with this comment. You have questions, and I have answers, but it is not easy to demonstrate the truth in words, and your abrasiveness makes it even more difficult.



Doc_Jude said:


> As I expected.
> Again, as I expected.


If this is all you can say to my reply, then you really didn't understand the entire response. Please read this post a little more carefully, and with an open mind. You really might learn something.



Doc_Jude said:


> Anyone can break a finger.


Are you sure about that? Is that a fact that you have data to back up? What if someone could not break a finger? What if they came to me for lessons. I've never broken anyone's finger, in combat or otherwise. Could I teach them how? If it is only the level of difficulty that is confusing you (a finger is easy, but a femur is hard) then consider this. To juggle two or three balls might be considered easy for some (not me), but they would say that juggling 5 or 10 is hard, and next to impossible. However, the people who do it for a living, and do it daily don't find it so difficult. It is really a matter of skill, and what you are used to being able to do.

I know that does not fully answer your question yet, but it is a pertinent point, so take it in for a moment, then combine it with the rest of my response.



Doc_Jude said:


> But how can you teach with so little experience, what will work to break bones?


First, I don't have "so little experience" as you put it. My experience covers everything up to and around the exact technique we are talking about. I will concede that if I, personally, have never broken a femur, then there is reason to doubt whether or not I can do it, however, that is not an absolute argument for the fact that I can not demonstrate my ability to do it.

Three questions arise:
1. Can it be done? (is the femur capable of being broken? has anyone ever kicked a femur and broken it?)

2. Can I personally do it? (short of actually doing it, and proving the fact, can a person test their abilities and demonstrate that they are capable?)

3. Would it be easy to do? (If attempted by a person who has been proven capable, would they find it easy or difficult to accomplish in a fight?)

To question one, I believe most will agree that femurs are capable of being broken, and I believe that there are fighters who have, intentionally, with accuracy and power, targeted a femur and broken them (when I have more time I will cite sources - or others can if they know of any).

To question two, it is not so much theory and speculation, as it is formula and common sense. I have never driven a car into a brick wall at 60 mph before, but I have driven a car at 60 mph, and I have hit other objects with a car before, so I am absolutely positive that I could do it if I wanted to, and I believe I know what the resulting damage would be (approximately).

To question three, any action or skill will seem difficult to those who are not so skilled at it. Having street-combat experience, being a fairly well versed instructor, and knowing how easily (from my own perspective) it is for me to tag an opponent where I want, set up a specific strike, and to turn a simple tap in sparring into a complete destruction, full power kick, I can honestly speak as to how "easy" something is for me to do.

For me, doing a running jump over a 5' high bar (like a track & field event), would be very difficult, and might seem impossible to me. However, to jump-spin hook kick someone 6' tall in the head is "easy" in my opinion. Others might consider kicking someone in the chest difficult, and say that I am full of hot air if I say jumping in the air, spinning backwards, and hook kicking a 6' tall guy in the head is easy. However, I'm 47 years old, I can do it, and I find it easy!



Doc_Jude said:


> If you've never done it, then you can really only imagine what it will do.
> 
> If you've never done it, even on accident, then maybe you should just drop the unsubstantiated claims of how easily you _*could*_ do it if you wanted to.


 
Ok, Doc, think about this. In my Army Basic Training at Fort Sill, OK., I earned the "expert" badge in Hand-grenades. This means that on an obstacle course, set up by Drill Sergeants who survived Vietnam, we crawled through the mud, and brush and woods, and threw dummy grenades at dummy targets (human figures, foxholes, and buildings with windows. I was good enough to hit the target consistently. We also went to a live grenade range and threw the ones that actually go boom!

Now if my training stopped there, then it would be theory as to what I could personally do in live combat. We know that grenades can be used in combat, and that the do kill when the get near a target, and that many soldiers have used them successfully. So then, it would be down to a question of, could Private Eisenhart do it in real combat. Fortunately for me, I never saw real combat, but lets assume for a moment that I did.

If I were to spend ten years in real combat, and instead of throwing live grenades, I threw smoke canisters near the enemy (the kind that mask your platoon's movements or signal what to do). Suppose that I was able to successfully function in combat, dodging enemy bullets without freezing up or getting killed.  If I could consistently and accurately place smoke canisters within inches of the enemy without every blowing anyone up, or killing them, then I would be able to deduce that, if I had chosen to throw a live grenade instead, the enemy would be dead.

How can I logically draw this conclusion. Well, the first part has been established. Hand-grenades have been proven to kill people when they go off, and other soldiers have used them successfully. All I have to do is demonstrate my ability to place the grenade, or a similar object, within the kill zone under combat circumstances, and it is logical that I would be successful at killing enemies with grenades.  Then I could say that it would be "easy" for me to do, even though I had never actually killed anyone with a grenade.

If a person holds a grenade in their hands, pulls the pin and releases the lever, I know what damage that grenade will do to their body. I don't ever have to have put a grenade in someone's hands myself, and kill them to know that I could do it. Statistics already exist for that. If I can demonstrate my ability to throw a grenade accurately at a target, then 1 + 1 = 2.

Medical research indicates about how much pressure it takes for various bones to break. If the pressure for breaking a femur (through skin, muscle and everything) is x, and a person shows they can kick with a power of x, then they can likely break a femur, but they might consider it difficult to do. If I can demonstrate that I can break boards with the power of 2x, then breaking a femur might be considered relatively easy to me, where it might seem difficult to you.

The only issue left is how easy and consistently it could be done in a real fight, and there is no way to prove that except to do it. However, with a few, one-on-one sessions with me, I think I could convince you that it is not as difficult as you think.

Anyhow, good luck with your future training, Doc, and I'll see you in the funny papers! :ultracool

Chief Master Darwin J. Eisenhart


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