# New Yang Rank System



## grydth (Feb 28, 2007)

Thanks to Eastwinds directing me to the Yang Family internet site (see videos thread), I learned the Yang Family has instituted, and is now testing for, a formal rank system. 

There are 9 ranks: 3 eagle ranks for beginner, 3 tiger ranks for intermediate and 3 dragon ranks for advanced.

Any feelings on whether Tai Chi systems adopting a formal rank structure is  good, bad or a little of both?

I'll bravely go out on a limb and say it is a little of both. 

Their "Purpose" section sounds convincing, especially the part about standardized training. There's been some, ahem, spirited debate over what "Yang Style" really means.... and these ranks will distinguish the Yang Family from the many Yang derivatives.... (to include my beloved Cheng Man Ching system.)

Possible bad results - many people are drawn to Tai Chi for its informality, for its lack of testing and ranking. This may make some teachers and students uncomfortable enough to leave. One may like standardized training, but others prize an art that lets them learn as they wish, what they wish.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2007)

grydth said:


> I'll bravely go out on a limb and say it is a little of both.


 
Hedging your bets that way isn't bravely going out on a limb! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I'm just giving you a hard time, i actually agree with you.  Ranking systems can be a bit of both.

I'm not sure it will effectively standardize anything, tho.  There are so many Yang derivatives already that I think it will be impossible to pull them back together.  OK, so the family itself can set standards for what they teach from this point forward.  But I think the rest is out of their grasp.  And these derivatives certainly came from the Yang family originally, maybe even from the extended family, uncles, cousins, etc. from prior generations.  They are still "Yang", regardless.

Things change.  It's inevitable.  Any standardization that they manage to accomplish will be very limited, in my opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2007)

I don't like it at all.

It is basically politics and money making and standardization does not necessarily mean better. Look at any McDojos and that is all the farther you need look.

And how can you standardize Taiji? Not everyone develops the same especially when it comes to internal. 

And the Yang family has been very vocal as to what is and what is not Yang style Taiji and as far as I am concerned I agree with them as far as Cheng Manching is concerned, it is not Yang style. It is a good style but it is no more Yang style that Yang style is Chen. 

There has never been a belt system in Taiji and for a group that is clinging to Yang Chengfu as their standard, who never had belt rankings by the way, I find it a bit odd. 

But whatever they do does not bother me nor will it bother my sifu. The Yang family is the Yang family and I will stop there before I start to rant and or cite a riot.

*NOTE

As a point of reference this is the ranking system of the Yang family*
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/association/ranking/index


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 28, 2007)

This appears to go beyond just a ranking system.  It looks to me to be an attempt to standardise Yang Taiji across the board.  

The site XS quoted even mentions standardised clothing!

Personally I think Taiji, Yang Taiji specifically, will lose something through this process.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> This appears to go beyond just a ranking system. It looks to me to be an attempt to standardise Yang Taiji across the board.
> 
> The site XS quoted even mentions standardised clothing!
> 
> Personally I think Taiji, Yang Taiji specifically, will lose something through this process.


 
Thats the Yang family site
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/home
Click association
Click ranking and your there

And what I find interesting is that the Chen family has a pretty good grasp on their family style. They know who trains with them and who has trained with them. And yet they have no such ranking system or a big concern about strict standardization.


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## grydth (Feb 28, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> This appears to go beyond just a ranking system. It looks to me to be an attempt to standardise Yang Taiji across the board.
> 
> The site XS quoted even mentions standardised clothing!
> 
> Personally I think Taiji, Yang Taiji specifically, will lose something through this process.



I'd be interested in hearing more on this from your perspective.... what specific(s) do you see as being possibly lost? Do you see any potential gains? Should other systems adopt anything like this?


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## grydth (Feb 28, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Hedging your bets that way isn't bravely going out on a limb!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Anybody who comes to me seeking bravery or skill well deserves the deed to the bridge they walk away with... :idunno:

In a serious vein, I wonder with all the Yang type offshoots out there whether this is not an intentional act on the Yang family's part to restore their primacy? I wonder whether the tree trunk was in danger of being swamped by all the offshoots.

Could they be telling potential students, "Accept no substitutes?"

It will be interesting to see if any other major family adopts a similar scheme.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 28, 2007)

grydth said:


> I'd be interested in hearing more on this from your perspective.... what specific(s) do you see as being possibly lost? Do you see any potential gains? Should other systems adopt anything like this?


 

I quite like the grading system the Yang family have proposed.  Its a bit nicer than coloured belts or sashes, but very standardised.  But what I can see is that this becomes an avenue for those less scrupulous to take advantage, and taiji already has way too many of those people.  I can see why they have proposed this system, so that they can regain some control over Yang taiji.  Perhaps it will also offer points of comparison between taiji and other styles, who can say.

The thing is, taiji, and the internal arts in general, in my opinion have a freedom that I can see being very constrained by this system.  Also, it does not allow for the gifted student to progress more rapidly.

All in all, though I'm not being very clear, Yang taiji may suffer from a possibly half thought out system.  The various other styles, however, may benefit if people are put off.


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## grydth (Feb 28, 2007)

Now that may be the $64,ooo,ooo question..... how well thought out was this? With no access to their inner sanctum I wonder if we'll ever know.

I can guess that the Yang powers looked out on a world where they were in very real danger of losing control of their 'brand name'......... and/or where a strict set of Yang up and comers looked at a chaotic world with no uniformity, no system. 

I'd bet the time limits could be waived for a true prodigy, or favored one, but I can see those frustrating some..... on the other hand, this may have been a reaction to the proliferation of "Masters" with 1 year of experience!

What will other families do? I did read a Chen Master interview where he appeared very critical of what he was seeing out there.....


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## charyuop (Feb 28, 2007)

I think the idea is not that bad. Finally trying to standardize the Yang style is not a bad idea. You see too many different versions of the Yang style. They are the Yang family and I think they have the right to standardize their style. If it is different just give to it a different name and stop passing it for what it is not.
I personally do 2 Yang Cheng Fu styles. One after my Sifu and one after a video I had bought in the past (actually many videos, very well detailed). There are many things different in the 2 version and I like them both so I do both, but I am sure if I go study under the Yang family their forms will be different from the 2 I am doing at the moment.

Just my 2 cents...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2007)

grydth said:


> I did read a Chen Master interview where he appeared very critical of what he was seeing out there.....


 
Which Chen master and critical of what, the Yang ranking system or something else?


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## grydth (Feb 28, 2007)

charyuop said:


> I think the idea is not that bad. Finally trying to standardize the Yang style is not a bad idea. You see too many different versions of the Yang style. They are the Yang family and I think they have the right to standardize their style. If it is different just give to it a different name and stop passing it for what it is not.
> I personally do 2 Yang Cheng Fu styles. One after my Sifu and one after a video I had bought in the past (actually many videos, very well detailed). There are many things different in the 2 version and I like them both so I do both, but I am sure if I go study under the Yang family their forms will be different from the 2 I am doing at the moment.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...



Your pennies always welcome on any thread I start!

Standardization seems be be coming up a lot - do you see any other motivations? Do you think other Tai Chi families may follow up with such a system?

( By the way - The Tai Chi videos thread is revived, so if you've found one that's outstanding, please list it there for everyone!)


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 28, 2007)

charyuop said:


> I think the idea is not that bad. Finally trying to standardize the Yang style is not a bad idea. You see too many different versions of the Yang style. They are the Yang family and I think they have the right to standardize their style. If it is different just give to it a different name and stop passing it for what it is not.
> I personally do 2 Yang Cheng Fu styles. One after my Sifu and one after a video I had bought in the past (actually many videos, very well detailed). There are many things different in the 2 version and I like them both so I do both, but I am sure if I go study under the Yang family their forms will be different from the 2 I am doing at the moment.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...


 
Standardising the forms is fine and would bring the control that the family is probably looking for, but the concept of standardised clothing still bothers me.


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## East Winds (Mar 1, 2007)

I practise Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. (i.e. the form as taught by the Yang Family today; in my case Yang Zhen Ji the second son of Yang Cheng-fu). This is also the form as being taught by Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun. I am also a member of the International Yang Style T'ai Chi Ch'uan Association. I do not participate in the grading system, and there is absolutely no pressure on me to do so. We all know that there are a huge variety of "Yang" styles out there many of which are simply bad. There are a great many more "Masters" out there making a very nice living on the backs of the Yang family. I think the grading is merely a way of saying that if you are graded and recognised by the IYSTCCA, your taiji will be following the form as finally transmitted by Yang Cheng-fu. I personally have no problem with that. I think it is a way of stabilising the form that is recognised by the Yang Family. Nor do I have a problem with uniforms. I would suggest that many schools provide T-shirts with their school logo on, both as a way for their students to show their school and of course as a source of revenue for the Instructor. Where I do have a problem is if they become a "required element" of learning a system. I would wish to have no part of that and I do not think there is any intention of the Yang Family to enforce any thing like that.

I am not sure how many of the other family systems have or intend to have grading systems, but then I am not sure that many other family systems have suffered the way the Yang family has.

Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is a beautiful and effectively martial form which should be preserved as Yang Cheng-fu transmitted it. Any other form should be called something different so that there is absolutely no confusion.

Just my two cents worth

Very best wishes

P.S. That was almost a rant. Must stop reading Xue Sheng's posts :rofl:


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## grydth (Mar 1, 2007)

East Winds said:


> I practise Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. (i.e. the form as taught by the Yang Family today; in my case Yang Zhen Ji the second son of Yang Cheng-fu). This is also the form as being taught by Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun. I am also a member of the International Yang Style T'ai Chi Ch'uan Association. I do not participate in the grading system, and there is absolutely no pressure on me to do so. We all know that there are a huge variety of "Yang" styles out there many of which are simply bad. There are a great many more "Masters" out there making a very nice living on the backs of the Yang family. I think the grading is merely a way of saying that if you are graded and recognised by the IYSTCCA, your taiji will be following the form as finally transmitted by Yang Cheng-fu. I personally have no problem with that. I think it is a way of stabilising the form that is recognised by the Yang Family. Nor do I have a problem with uniforms. I would suggest that many schools provide T-shirts with their school logo on, both as a way for their students to show their school and of course as a source of revenue for the Instructor. Where I do have a problem is if they become a "required element" of learning a system. I would wish to have no part of that and I do not think there is any intention of the Yang Family to enforce any thing like that.
> 
> I am not sure how many of the other family systems have or intend to have grading systems, but then I am not sure that many other family systems have suffered the way the Yang family has.
> 
> ...



Your Two Pence always welcome in any discussion I provoke....er, I mean initiate...

Let me be devil's advocate: "Suffered" is a strong verb..... in what specific way(s) have they suffered? 

Has the proliferation of Yang type styles not been of help to them as well? Did it not assist the Yang family in crowding out other styles in many markets?

If "suffered" is the best way to define this process, why did they do nothing for so long? In American law, it is called "sleeping on one's rights." 

You appear able to opt out of the testing/ranking requirements and out of the dress code..... what would be your feelings and actions if you were told that you had to follow them? What will happen to Yang if this becomes strictly enforced?

"Devil's Advocate" means this: I personally think you are raising some sound points and I'd think the discussion would profit from more of your input. (If you're going to blame CMC, then we can in a freindly manner cross swords:jediduel:

Thanks again.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 1, 2007)

First I will say I am having a real hard time being the kinder gentler more diplomatic Xue here. I will admit I have my problems with the Yang family and I will not go into those here since that would be a different post.

I have just read through the Yang ranking system again, admittedly I have not read through them in several months. The last time I read them the Yang family still had their old webpage not the current one. I have read through them and done my best to stay calm.

Now not training with the Yang family I can say I am not really sure of all that is involved in the testing for their ranking system and I would appreciate any insight from any that do train with them as to whether or not I am missing something here.

I have read through the system from Beginner to gold dragon (interesting choice of color there by the way since even today in China a gold or yellow dragon is historically associated with the emperor) 

I have noticed this same pattern over and over again in each rank, except of course copper through golden dragon (I will get to those later) every rank requires test of 

1 - Traditional Yang style hand form (I am assuming they are talking about 108, 103, the long form or whatever else it is called) 
2  Test of theory
3  Respect the moral code.

It is at 3rd rank I see the addition of sword and saber form (I am again assuming they mean jian and dao)
4th rank  Intermediate rank it gets interesting in a contradictory sort of way based on alleged Yang family philosophy of Yang Chengfu designed the ultimate Yang style and there can be no improvements. If this is the case where did the 49 form come from and why was it necessary. It certainly was not designed by Chengfu.

5th and 6th ranks are much the same as 4th.

Now to get to 6th rank takes a minimum of 8 years of study not sure if that is good or bad.

Advanced rank starts at 7th rank pretty much says that you are a master of Yang Taiji and they will not longer test you, of course you have been training Yang Taiji for 13 years minimum by that point. But in order to get to the copper Dragon it appears that you must be published in subjects Taiji and have a high level of martial virtue. 

8th is much the same but takes at least 5 more years and of course 9th has no years attached but you have to have achieved great success in work, research and theory of martial arts.

Now this is all fine except I am noticing the complete lack of the word application the complete lack of push hands and the complete lack of associated Yang taiji qigong. Now this is where I hope someone that trains with the Yang family can tell me it is there as part of the training somewhere between beginner and Golden Dragon, they just forgot to mention it in the ranking system.. 

Now beyond the above I really have no desire to get into an argument or major discussion on this. This ranking system is Yang family politics at its best in my opinion and I have been involved in it up to my eyeballs before and I have no desire to get back into it at all beyond this. 

My Yang style comes from Tung Ying Chieh and I am incredibly happy about that. And there are some Yang stylist who train with the Yang family that are in this Yang ranking system who have told me that what I do is not Yang style because of this and Tung Ying Chieh was a second rate student of Chengfu (no one on MT but this did happen on the Yang website  now there some respect and moral code for you). Now I wont put my thoughts on that comment here because it is again a different post

To end this and to be incredibly honest I have spent more time with the Chen family than Yang, but that is not saying much really since I have spent no time at all with the Yang family nor do I plan to.


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## East Winds (Mar 2, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

The 49 step was introduced to cope with and comply with competition rules. It is purely a competiton form. In competition the usual time allocated to bare hand form is 10 minutes. It would be imposible to complete the 103 form in that time. Now I do not necessarily agree that competions are a good thing, or for that matter ranking systems, but I do see their purpose and do not denegrate anyone who feels the need to participate in any of these systems. 

It is highly unlikey that the Yang Family has any intention of making any of these things "compulsory", therefore I think that speculating on possible outcomes is sterile. The very fact that I personally do not like the Cheng Man-ching form does not mean that I cannot respect its practitioners. There are many fine practitioners of this form here in Scotland. I have also incidentally worked with Katy Cheng (CMC's daughter) when she came over to Scotland. I would hardly have done that if I disrespected the system.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 2, 2007)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> The 49 step was introduced to cope with and comply with competition rules. It is purely a competiton form. In competition the usual time allocated to bare hand form is 10 minutes. It would be imposible to complete the 103 form in that time. Now I do not necessarily agree that competions are a good thing, or for that matter ranking systems, but I do see their purpose and do not denegrate anyone who feels the need to participate in any of these systems.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you

What about qigong, push hands and applications?

Also I had no intention of implying that you had or would disrespect any one of any style, I am sorry if I gave that impression :asian:

The statement I was referencing to was made on the Yang family site by one of its members. 

As to CMC I have stated many times that I like it and that CMC as it comes from William CC Chen is a very effective fighting style as well as having the internal aspects. If I had more time I would likely train it with the Sifu in my area, but as I said in another post it appears I may have 1 Sifu to many already.

However I did, just this morning notice a big difference as it applies to application between CMC and Traditional Yang. Not that they both would not work, they are just different.


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## pete (Mar 2, 2007)

grydth said:


> I learned the Yang Family has instituted, and is now testing for, a formal rank system ...
> 
> Any feelings on whether Tai Chi systems adopting a formal rank structure is good, bad or a little of both?


 
me, i don't like it. reeks of commercialism (motivational carrot waving and testing fees), control (where there is a carrot, there is also a stick) and politics.  carrots and sticks work well with jackasses, not people.

but then, i do not practice nor am i involved with Yang Family Style, so its really their business and not mine.  they have no influence over me, and i certainly have no influence on them. i am happy with my practice and training methods, i wish them happiness with theirs...

pete.


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## East Winds (Mar 2, 2007)

pete



pete said:


> me, i don't like it. reeks of commercialism (motivational carrot waving and testing fees), control (where there is a carrot, there is also a stick) and politics. carrots and sticks work well with jackasses, not people.
> 
> Are there any MA schools that are not commercial? :erg:
> 
> Very best wishes


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## dmax999 (Mar 3, 2007)

I have 2 points to make on this subject.

Point 1:
Splintering can harm.  Being a computer guy, I like Linux.  It is superior to windows, but because you have about 100 different distributions that each work a little different, you have trouble getting things to work across them all or getting help for your specific version.  Your system is better, but lacking in other ways because of the splintering.  I believe the Yang family is attempting to stop that a bit.  They may be having trouble teacing because people coming to their seminars are so far off while still claiming to do Yang style.

Point 2:
They seem to be lacking applications.  They are not admiting to the fighting set, not doing push hands, not doing applications.  This is a martial art, not a dance school.  I probably would agree with them a lot more if they were training martial artists and not coreographing dancers.

It will probably help in the long run, but they probably need to have two sets of ranks.  One for foms and one for fighters.  I realize most go to Tai Chi for non-fighting reasons, but Tai Chi's strength is in its fighting and they need to embrace that more.


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## oxy (Mar 4, 2007)

dmax999 said:


> I have 2 points to make on this subject.
> 
> Point 1:
> Splintering can harm.  Being a computer guy, I like Linux.  It is superior to windows, but because you have about 100 different distributions that each work a little different, you have trouble getting things to work across them all or getting help for your specific version.  Your system is better, but lacking in other ways because of the splintering.  I believe the Yang family is attempting to stop that a bit.  They may be having trouble teacing because people coming to their seminars are so far off while still claiming to do Yang style.
> ...



IANATCP, of course.

But strictly speaking, they are only for specifications testing - not teaching/learning.

Maybe the committee or whatever that decided this thing was assuming that the students who were taught applications and push hands etc properly would do the forms much more correctly than those who weren't. And since everyone here seems to be able to pick out who amongst Tai Chi students were taught proper applications etc, I'm sure the committee/whatever assumed they could pick them out too.

Your first point (a very good one) about forking in Linux OSes can actually be a factor in why applications can't be properly tested [yet]. If there is so much variation in the forms already, I can only assume that there are more differences in application theory vary much more than forms. In light of this, it would make more sense to wait for a standardised form to propagate itself back fully into the community before finally standardising applications.

The bigger problem I think is the testing of moral/martial code. It simply cannot tell the difference between someone who actually adhere to it from someone who just memorises the answers. Same thing happened to the civil examination system of Imperial China. People just started rote-memorising other people's essays on Confucian ethics but are as corrupt as the worst in the rest of the country. Needless to say, many dynasties degenerated into civil war due to this. Of course, there are many other examples around the world which shows it is impossible to make any moral/ethics tests useful in anyway.


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## marlon (Mar 4, 2007)

. I have also incidentally worked with Katy Cheng (CMC's daughter) when she came over to Scotland. I would hardly have done that if I disrespected the system.

Very best wishes[/quote]


How was the experience?  It is my understanding that cmc practitioners also learn the 103 form.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## SifuPhil (Mar 4, 2007)

As for my 2 centavos here...

1. Just look at the rest of the martial arts world and see what has often happened with the grading and "belting" of students.

2. If taijiquan is indeed based upon Taoist principles, I find it hilarious that they are attempting to impose an artificial order upon that which is meant to be natural.

But as was mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm not involved with their style; I do what I do apart from their labels, so as long as it never hinders me from pursuing my art, I wish them well.


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## grydth (Mar 4, 2007)

marlon said:


> . I have also incidentally worked with Katy Cheng (CMC's daughter) when she came over to Scotland. I would hardly have done that if I disrespected the system.
> 
> Very best wishes


 

How was the experience?  It is my understanding that cmc practitioners also learn the 103 form.

Respectfully,
Marlon[/quote]

At the risk of performing, "Hijack Own Thread", a secret CMC form, I would like to hear East Winds' tale of working with CMC's daughter as well.

Marlon - you often have some interesting views on Chinese arts - any further thoughts on the new Yang system?

East Winds - I sense some internal inconsistency in your position. If your theory as to why the new rank/uniform system was instituted is correct, how can it possibly be "sterile" to discuss the results if the system is not compulsory? Indeed, if it is not, won't this result in yet more Yang divisions?  If it is not, what good can it bring?


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## grydth (Mar 4, 2007)

SifuPhil said:


> As for my 2 centavos here...
> 
> 1. Just look at the rest of the martial arts world and see what has often happened with the grading and "belting" of students.
> 
> ...



I believe you addressed this point in the conclusion of your book, *Tai Chi For Seniors*,  specifically in the section entitled, "So When Do I Get My Black Belt?"

My compliments on your work, which our group has found most useful.


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## marlon (Mar 4, 2007)

[.

Marlon - you often have some interesting views on Chinese arts - any further thoughts on the new Yang system?




I assume you mean the ranking system.  Please bear in mind i am a newbie in tai chi and an outsider.  It seems a bit tacky to mean the rank structure and from reading it it is not very clear what you need to score 6.5 or whatever.  From my understanding of taiji it does not fit.  however, as many people have been using the /Yang family name to make money i see this as an attempt to control thier family style and earn some money from it.  I see nothing wrong with earning money but this may backfire on them because it seems to be going to far.  BTW do you know you can buy yourself into the Yang family now.  it is my understanding that all certified instructors pay a fee (one time or yearly i am not sure) and are called part of the Yang family.  it is strange and i think it will not work. I hope for the Yang family that it does not burn them.  The knowledge is out there and has been for a long time and skill level has always been the yard stick.  most people want to learn taiji and are less concerned with what family it is.  People will just teach and not call it Yang style and it will not matter so much to the students as long as they learn effective taiji.  also, i think Chen style is beginning a big push into main stream taiji and because of the look of it more martially minded beginners will gravitate towards it and Yang style could suffer in the number of its new practitioners.  Those who study it now and know it as an effective MA will not necessarily be disturbed but perhaps this is motivating the yang family as well to be better organized to handle a new level competition for students

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## grydth (Mar 4, 2007)

Interesting that someone else also perceives an aggressive push by Chen style in the market place. I had first noted some roughly worded articles in what I see as marginal publications...... this month in Tai Chi magazine there is a very impressive interview with Chen Master Chen Zhenglei. An impressive read, and educational whatever one's style may be.

I wonder if the Yang actions are in response to hearing the Chen foot steps...


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## East Winds (Mar 4, 2007)

For you guys who think the Yang's are doing something unusual or unethical with their grading system, have a look at this link

http://www.taichicentre.com/grading2007.php

grydth,

"I wonder if the Yang actions are in response to hearing the Chen footsteps"

Looks like the Yangs are are in the lead and its the Chens who are following? :rofl:

Very best wishes


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## marlon (Mar 4, 2007)

Just to be clear.  i do not think that the Yang's are doing anything unusual or unethical in the martial arts world at all.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## grydth (Mar 4, 2007)

East Winds said:


> For you guys who think the Yang's are doing something unusual or unethical with their grading system, have a look at this link
> 
> http://www.taichicentre.com/grading2007.php
> 
> ...



I must say that "unethical" is not a term I used....... I think "unusual" could be supported given the Yang Family's own history alone.

The link appears to be to grading for *Wushu* practitoners. While hosted at a Chen Center, this does not appear to be Chen grading. Even while you appear mistaken on this point, the Wushu gradings do lend you some support in that Yang is not alone in introducing gradings.

I hope nobody is taking offense at this thread..... On this Forum, we genuinely can differ without taking things personally, engaging in out of control rants or talking down an entire system. Whatever one may think of gradings alone, both traditional Yang and Chen Styles are wonderful systems deserving of our respect.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 4, 2007)

grydth said:


> I believe you addressed this point in the conclusion of your book, *Tai Chi For Seniors*,  specifically in the section entitled, "So When Do I Get My Black Belt?"
> 
> My compliments on your work, which our group has found most useful.


Thank you, Grydth - it's always nice to know someone has gotten some use from the book.



			
				grydth said:
			
		

> Whatever one may think of gradings alone, both traditional Yang and Chen Styles are wonderful systems deserving of our respect.


Very true. As one who might be considered a "gray beard" in the MA world, I've seen a few proposed ranking systems appear, seemingly out of nowhere. Whether they take hold or not seems to depend upon the sincerity and intent of the founders. 

I think it's always well to remember that a grade, any grade, is just a marker on the side of the road - if you're constantly striving to become better at your chosen style, the marker will soon be in the distant past. That's when you realize that it wasn't the marker itself that was important - just the point of reference it afforded.


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## East Winds (Mar 5, 2007)

I thought my little "smiley" at the end of my post would have indicated that I was not posting too serious a reply or that I had been upset by previous posters!!!!!

Irrespective of being a "Wushu" grading, this is a well established Chen school who regularly host Chen Xiaowang seminars, taking students to a grading, presumably conducted by Chen stylists. That's all I was trying to say.

As Sifu phil says, these are only markers on a journey which no one is forced to undertake if they do not wish. My teacher says, "When you are climbing the mountain, don't look up to see how far you still have to go. Look back and see how far you have come". 

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2007)

East Winds said:


> IAs Sifu phil says, these are only markers on a journey which no one is forced to undertake if they do not wish. My teacher says, "When you are climbing the mountain, don't look up to see how far you still have to go. Look back and see how far you have come".


 
Actually speaking strictly form an Internal CMA stand point

"Focus on where you are"

If you are simply looking a taiji as nothing other than Taiji what is the big deal if you are training Yang, CMC or Chen.

If you are looking at it from a purely commercial stand point it appears that the Yang family is way in front on that one.

I am a long time Yang style practitioner but I will say I have always liked Chen better. I have been lucky enough to have a chance to talk to a Chen family member and I liked his attitude about Taiji better than that I read from the Yang family. However it is possible that if I talked to a member of the Yang family I could change my mind.

Following is a general response to all posters 

As for CMC, the absolute only problem I have with the style is the continued claim that it is Yang style or CMC Yang style. 

CMC is a great style, I rather like it, but it is no more Yang than Yang is Chen.


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## East Winds (Mar 5, 2007)

At the risk of starting a war :shrug: her is a quote I saw on another board :-

"Chen Man-ching was the man who gave so much to the Yang style by taking out so much of the art"

Not my quote, merely quoting someone else
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Very best wishes


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2007)

East Winds said:


> I thought my little "smiley" at the end of my post would have indicated that I was not posting too serious a reply or that I had been upset by previous posters!!!!!
> 
> Irrespective of being a "Wushu" grading, this is a well established Chen school who regularly host Chen Xiaowang seminars, taking students to a grading, presumably conducted by Chen stylists. That's all I was trying to say.
> 
> ...



I would respectfully question if a Wushu grading would be, "presumably conducted by Chen stylists." I have a close friend who's a Wushu stylist, and watching him do forms nicely illustrates Wushu as being a mix of several traditional family styles. 

Yet, Wushu is separate and distinct, with its own authority and Masters. 

I have not read of Chen using a grading system, and I do not understand how they could grade promotions for a style not their own. 

So...I can't see how a Chen stylist could do the gradings, even if the event is held in a Chen facility.

My personal knowledge on this is hardly definitive.... so if you can follow up on this event, and Chen Masters do indeed participate, that would be news, indeed.


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2007)

East Winds said:


> At the risk of starting a war :shrug: her is a quote I saw on another board :-
> 
> "Chen Man-ching was the man who gave so much to the Yang style by taking out so much of the art"
> 
> ...



An excellent topic to discuss - but honestly not here, it deserves its own thread. 

If you want to start a new thread and defend the quote, I'll happily - and respectfully - defend CMC. 

But I think "war" is too harsh, how about just a:whip1:


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2007)

To Chen family grading/ranking/Wushu ranking

The Chen family has no such grading system.

They do not have belts or time requirements or anything even remotely close to what the Yang family has put into place.

And as far as I know neither does Sun, Hao, Wu, nor Zhaobao. But I could be wrong about Sun, Hao and Wu. I do not know as much about them but I have not seen any ranking system associated with them.


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## dmax999 (Mar 5, 2007)

For the last couple of years the Yang family has been going with the attitude of "If you didn't learn it from us, its not traditional Yang Family style" I see the grading as just a continuation of that. Either jump aboard or be prepaired to have distinguished experts claim you do not perform any specific style of Tai Chi. Can you be a Catholic and not recognize the Pope as your spiritual leader, same thing they are going for.

I expect in the future you will have to be ranked by the Yang family to participate in Tai Chi competitions that involve them. The sad part is the best people in Tai Chi will probably ignore them and make winning one of those competitions worthless.

I wish them luck, and if things go good for them and they pursue it the right way we may be lucky and be able to tell a bunch of tree hugging yoga Tai Chi wannabees that they don't do Tai Chi and its something else. I don't really expect it to happen, but it might be nice to see. From what I read from them though they will embrace those individuals and then maybe the rest of us can then get on with the real Tai Chi. We will just have to wait and see how it goes.


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 5, 2007)

dmax999 said:


> I wish them luck, and if things go good for them and they pursue it the right way we may be lucky and be able to tell a bunch of tree hugging yoga Tai Chi wannabees that they don't do Tai Chi and its something else. I don't really expect it to happen, but it might be nice to see. From what I read from them though they will embrace those individuals and then maybe the rest of us can then get on with the real Tai Chi. We will just have to wait and see how it goes.


 
Ah yes! That most sublime of silver linings, telling new age wankers to wake up and stop annoying everyone else.  Sadly I don't really expect it to happen either.  It would be very strange indeed if the tree-hungers were the only ones doing *real* Yang taiji wouldn't it?


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2007)

I have heard rumors that there will soon be gradings for degree of "wankers"... any word on this? 

In the meantime, you've given me an idea for a new thread to upset everyone with....:soapbox:


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## East Winds (Mar 6, 2007)

It is interesting to read some posts here which seem to suggest  that by introducing gradings, the Yang Family have suddenly diluted their teachings. Why would the introduction of a grading system degrade Traditional Yang Family taijiquan? So far I have not seen anyone giving such an explanation.
Incidentally I do not speak for the Yang Family, not do I necessarily agree that gradings are a requirement in any Taiji system. 

Very best wishes


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 6, 2007)

*Attention All Users

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator*


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## dmax999 (Mar 7, 2007)

East Winds said:


> It is interesting to read some posts here which seem to suggest that by introducing gradings, the Yang Family have suddenly diluted their teachings. Why would the introduction of a grading system degrade Traditional Yang Family taijiquan? So far I have not seen anyone giving such an explanation.
> Incidentally I do not speak for the Yang Family, not do I necessarily agree that gradings are a requirement in any Taiji system.


 
I hope I did not imply this. I don't think the ranking will affect the quality of their teaching, but I do think it will change the quality of their students. I was only attempting to point out some possibilities, and I am personally hoping for their changes to improve Tai Chi for everyone. The problem of them making the changes required to gain a better "work ethic" of students will dissuade many other students. If the ranking system is just a money making scheme for them, as others have suggested, then the positivie outcome will not be the one we see.

I personally am hoping they improve things, as I don't know who else has the level of respect to be able to. If they move things in the correct direction I will be in line to get ranked with others that I feel are on the right path.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2007)

Teaching plan of Chen Style Tai Chi Quan for Foreigner - and no belt ranking system

http://www.cstjq.com/corpsvc/temp/T...1000001216&idModuleInfo=64707&idInfo=10076770


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## East Winds (Mar 8, 2007)

http://www.limingyue.com/

No further comment needed from me

Very best wishes


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## East Winds (Mar 8, 2007)

http://www.chenzhenglei.co.uk/chenzhenglei.php

Second paragraph is interesting

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2007)

East Winds said:


> http://www.limingyue.com/
> 
> No further comment needed from me
> 
> Very best wishes


 
I am not sure what you are trying to say here since the title mentioned was given by the Government and not the Chen family



> Master Liming Yue holds a 7th Duan Wei, *officially awarded by the Chinese Government National Martial Arts Association*.


 
Not awarded by the Chen family



East Winds said:


> http://www.chenzhenglei.co.uk/chenzhenglei.php
> 
> Second paragraph is interesting
> 
> Very best wishes


 


> He has been officially recognized as one of the Top *Ten Foremost Martial Artists by the Chinese State Government* and has been *awarded the honor of National Martial Arts Senior Instructor holding of 8th Duan Wei of Chinese Wushu (Martial Arts) Grading System*. He is also a Committee Member of China Physical Culture & Science Institute.


 
Yes it is and again not awarded by the Chen Family

These are awards given by the Chinese government, so I guess I don't know what you are trying to say.These are Chinese Governmetn Wushu awards not a Chen Ranking system.

All that your posts show is that the Chinese government does have a ranking system in its martial arts associations not that the Chen family has one.


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## East Winds (Mar 8, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

Chenzhenglei is President of the UK Chen Style Tai Chi Chuan Centre. The Instructors of this Centre are ranked according to the grading of the Duan Wei system. Here is an entry from Chenzhenlei's website http://www.chenzhenglei.co.uk/indoorstudents_uk.php

Here at least is a Chen Family member who has apparently no problem embracing a grading system for Taiji. The face of things to come??????

Very best wishes


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## grydth (Mar 8, 2007)

Perhaps I am misreading these sites' contents, but these appear to be about Chen masters who have also accepted high Wushu ranks from Mainland China. 

Where is the mention of Chen ranks or of the acceptance of a grading system in Chen Style?

By the way, thanks for finding and sharing these.


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## East Winds (Mar 8, 2007)

grydth,

Thanks for the input which is always valued. Gradings are gradings whether they are done by a family or done by a government. The Chen Tai Chi Centre say quite specifically that their Instructors are graded according to the Duan Wei system and they arrange trips for their students and Instructors to go to China to be graded.(As I mentioned in an earlier post) Note also that these Instructors are listed as Indoor students of Chenzhenlei.

 I never at any time claimed that the Chen Family used gradings I only pointed out that a member of the Chen family who was President of the Chen Tai Chi Centre apparently approved gradings in Tai Chi.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 All I'm saying is that you cannot condemn the Yang Family for introdicing a grading system but say that its OK for the Chen system to use a Government grading system.

In any case I wonder which would be the more appropriate. A Family grading themselves or a Family being graded by the Government!!!! 
:erg:
Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2007)

As for what Zhenglei does in England I do not know. I have not seen a family level requirement or listing of a ranking system from the Chen family nor have I seen Zhenglei use this system in the states, but that does not mean he doesn't, it means I have not seen it. But unlike the Yang family were Zhenduo and Jun are the family, Zhenglei is one of the family not the one making decisions for what the Chen family is to do. To be honest I am not sure who that is but I believe Xiaowang is older and there is at least 1 or 2 more currently teaching also I do not think Zhenglei is in charge at Chen Village. 

You might want to take into account the curriculum of the Chen family I posted a link to was for foreigners. This means they likely treat us different than Chinese on mainland China and I already know that is a fact and although I am not happy about it I do, sadly, feel it is justified. 

As for what the Yang's do that is their business and frankly I believe it is becoming exactly that to them. "A business". I don't like it but I doubt the Yang family cares much what I think. I don't train with them and don't plan to so I don't have to worry about it either. Except from the stand point that I believe it will, in the long run, make things worse for Taiji not better. 

As stated the Chen family has no such ranking system that is all. If one from the family uses the wushu system them good for him. I don't like that either, but it is still not from the Chen family.

But with this said I will very much research the Wushu system and compare it to the Yangs system and see what I can see.

But with all this said I will also say I like Zhenglei he is a very talented Martial artist

And additionally, push hands, applications and Qigong are part of the Chen curriculum. I have still seen nor heard no mention that it was part of the Yang family's curriculum. But I am very much hoping that it is.


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 8, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> But with this said I will very much research the Wushu system and compare it to the Yangs system and see what I can see.quote]
> 
> I have just been looking at the Wushu grading system for this very reason.  Guess What?  They are almost identical.  There are nine duan wei which seem to be grouped into sets of three - lower range, intermediate range, advanced range.  There did not appear to be any time requirements but to hold a six or greater one needed to have won the Chinese National Championship or have equivalent skill.


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## grydth (Mar 8, 2007)

East Winds said:


> grydth,
> 
> Thanks for the input which is always valued. Gradings are gradings whether they are done by a family or done by a government. The Chen Tai Chi Centre say quite specifically that their Instructors are graded according to the Duan Wei system and they arrange trips for their students and Instructors to go to China to be graded.(As I mentioned in an earlier post) Note also that these Instructors are listed as Indoor students of Chenzhenlei.
> 
> ...



Consider the respect mutual. I came to this Forum to learn, and I am grateful for some of the sources you have provided on this thread and others.

Your points above are valid. Only time will tell as to how the Yang gradings work out.... I wish them well.


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## dmax999 (Mar 8, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> And additionally, push hands, applications and Qigong are part of the Chen curriculum. I have still seen nor heard no mention that it was part of the Yang family's curriculum. But I am very much hoping that it is.


 
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/classes/
8PM Monday Seattle
6PM Tuesdays Redmond
Push hands training, right from Yang family web site. 
It could mean a whole range of stuff.

I didn't notice any king of push hands/applications requirements for their rankings, which is my concern about them.


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## East Winds (Mar 9, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

The Yang Family certainly teach Push Hands and weapons forms as part of their curriculum. Whether or not that is also part of their grading system, I could not say. I think it would be hard to imagine that it was not, certainly at least at the higher levels.

I have worked with both Liming Yue and Wang Hijun and have nothing but the greatest respect for their high level teaching. I have also worked with indoor students of Chen Xiaowang and love Chen style. Unfortunatley I still have so much to learn of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan that I fear I will never be able to go back to Chen style.

I personally do not like grading systems in Taijiquan but unfortunately I think they are here to stay. Grading systems seem to work well in many other MA systems, and I will do my best to see that the CMA's do not adopt them as standard. Unfortunately, like the invasion of the New Agers I think it will be a losing battle.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2007)

dmax999 said:


> http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/classes/
> 8PM Monday Seattle
> 6PM Tuesdays Redmond
> Push hands training, right from Yang family web site.
> ...



Thanks. I will have to check but I have heard that the push hands training with the Yang family is extra, meaning cost more. But not training with them I would not know this for a fact.



East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> The Yang Family certainly teach Push Hands and weapons forms as part of their curriculum. Whether or not that is also part of their grading system, I could not say. I think it would be hard to imagine that it was not, certainly at least at the higher levels.
> 
> ...



Does it cost more to learn push hands, is it extra, is it done as private lessons or is it included as a regular part of their curriculum for all?

Being rather short of time and not wanting to get into a rant right now all I will say is I have found that Chen Zhenglei does not use a ranking system such as the Yang family uses nor does he use the Wushu system. But if a school he is affiliated with wants to use it he has no problem with it. And if you are om Mainland China the government is big on thier Wushu system

Also I really need to address this statement



East Winds said:


> Grading systems seem to work well in many other MA systems,



Because I fully believe that they use to but today they are harming a lot of Martial Arts systems. And a lot of this comes from my very first exposure to a Ranking system over 30 years ago in Jujitsu that I judge all other systems by today and so far very few can compare today. It is this focus on "Time in training" and "written tests" that concerns me greatly and the complete lack of emphasis on sparing and application.


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## pete (Mar 9, 2007)

similar discussion started on EF yesterday, in'eresting huh...

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/...oard=Xing;action=display;num=1173402243;start=


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## East Winds (Mar 9, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

"As for what the Yang's do that is their business and frankly I believe it is becoming exactly that to them. "A business". 

I would have more sympathy for that statement if I could attend a seminar by Chen Xiaowang or Chen Zhenlei seminar free of charge or if I could train at Chen village for free. I do not know of a Family Taijiquan system that is not a business and to suggest the Yang family of being the only one is unfair.

I think that grading will unfortunately become  more and more common and I also think there will be more and more pressure applied to traditional family's by the Chines Wushu establishment to fall into line. Perhaps the Yangs could forsee this and introduced a grading system before they were "invited" to do so. There have already been suggestions in the UK that Taiji schools should come under the Wushu banner. I do not use gradings in my school and have no intentions of doing so in the future.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2007)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> "As for what the Yang's do that is their business and frankly I believe it is becoming exactly that to them. "A business".
> 
> ...


 
I did not mean to say that it was not a business to the Chen, Wu, Hao, Sun, or Dong families etc. Lets just say I trust the Chen family more than the Yang family and leave it at that.

And I will stop here because I really don't want an argument a rant or to give the admins any extra work.


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