# Kicks and the hips



## BuddhaGirl (Feb 16, 2006)

Tonight during my 4th class I had the pleasure of learning a bunch of new kicks. I have always had what I consider tender hips..meaning it doesn't take much to make them sore. After doing these kicks my hips were screaming at me. 

Is there any kind of exercises or stretches that can help me strengthen the hips and avoid this discomfort. I was very hesitant to do some of the kicks and I don't want to feel that way.

Is this just a normal reaction to doing these kicks for the first time or am I just an old bitty who will just have to suffer through it?

Kerry


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## SAVAGE (Feb 16, 2006)

Hips are actually immoveable, with the rest of the body moving to generate rotation. I.e., the hips don't do anything, the rest of the body does and the hips just follow along. If you were, somehow, able to move your hips independently, you would likely injure the cartilage (meniscus) within your hip joints. Indeed, this _can_ be done if you fail to recognize the dependency hips have. 

I am not sure if this iswhat you are asking....but I hope this helps!


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 16, 2006)

I just had a bit of soreness/tightness in the hip/upper leg area after doing the kicks and  wondered if there was some way to strengthen this area so that in the future I don't have as much discomfort.


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## Carol (Feb 16, 2006)

I also have tenderness in my hip areas, and have had it prior to doing Kenpo.  It may be related to a sciatic nerve issue, at least, that is what mine is.  Chiropractic treatment has helped somewhat, but not much else has.

Remember the Tiger Balm


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## Xequat (Feb 16, 2006)

If I understand what you're talking about, I would recommend either chiropractic or massage to get it tender, then an exercise that I sometimes used to do was to stand there and throw a very slow side kick/side thrust, whatever, to get my leg horizontal.  Then, hold it out as well as you can, then make little circles, clockwise then counter-clockwise, maybe 10 each way.  Then, of course, switch legs.  After it got crazy sore, which it always does at first, I'd lie on my back and sort of Indian-style cross my legs and pull my knees in until the outside of the upper leg stretches.  That's hard to describe without showing you, but I hope it helps.


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## SAVAGE (Feb 16, 2006)

Well if your starting out..some pain is expected...it could be due to various factors...not warmed up enough..or over stretching...actually stretching cold muscles is not good...i.e stretching before doing your laps....I recommend skipping for 5 mins and then doing the following stretches:

Hip stretch Waist toner- Lie flat on your back with your arms extended OVER your sides....rise both your feet to point at the ceiling and bring both legs to the right while you look left...then change as you swap turn your head to look in the opposite direction!

2. Lie on the floor with your bum against a wall...the let your legs open and climb slowly down to wall inch by inch..untill you get a good stretch! Please ensure that your back is flat on the floor at all times!

3.  hold onto a wall with your left hand..and with your right hand grab your knee and lift it towards your chest!

these should help as begginer exercises..as with everything do not overexert yourself and consult with a physician before beggining!

I dont know how much pain you are in but it may warrant a medical opinion...take care..and good luck with your training!


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 17, 2006)

Proper warm-ups and basic stretching exercises before and after class are essential.  Hopefully your instructor is getting the job done here.

What you need to do is warmup to the point where you are breaking a light sweat, the do light stretching.

After class is the best time to do heavy stretching when the muscles are really warm and expanded.  As you cool down, the warm muscles will constrict again and create a tight feeling.  Stretching while they are still warm will reduce the constriction, leading you to become more limber is a shorter amount of time.

Chiropractic will only help with the hips in the event that the joint becomes dislocated.  I know this from experience.  My wife used to work for my original Chiropractor and he had to put my hip back in on a regular basis.

My hip problem comes up often in side, round and hooking kicks.  Also, if I end up stepping out to quickly and accidntally over extend my stance.  Over a period of time, I learned how to tell what my hip feels like when it is in proper place and when it is out - even slightly.

The funny thing is - many people have hips that are slightly out of joint and never know it.  They just maybe walk a little odd, think that one leg is slightly longer than the other and just learn to live with the discomfort.

I think everyone who trains in martial arts should see a sports oriented chiropractor on a regular basis, and make sure he checks your hips.
Regular treatment will improve your overall health, help avoid injuries in your training and improve your performance.


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## kenposikh (Feb 17, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Tonight during my 4th class I had the pleasure of learning a bunch of new kicks. I have always had what I consider tender hips..meaning it doesn't take much to make them sore. After doing these kicks my hips were screaming at me.
> 
> Is there any kind of exercises or stretches that can help me strengthen the hips and avoid this discomfort. I was very hesitant to do some of the kicks and I don't want to feel that way.
> 
> ...


 
Hope this helps stolen from another thread here and used with the permission of Dr Dave,

*I've kept my mouth shut, but you asked for it...

*We rented a video-flouroscopy (VF) unit a couple years ago, and taped the open and closed chain joints in motion during the performance of basics. VF is ongoing X-ray...instead of a snapshot of a millisecod in time, it's watching TV. It's a several minute x-ray, used in physical medicine to either giude injection procedures, or to evaluate the movement of jonits for abnormal soft tissue findings. For example, someone beig taped in VF walking on a treadmill with a ruptured ACL on the right...the right knee will look very different, with an unatural "hitch" in it during gait, compared to the left. We were curious about some very specific things, relative to some concerns about biomechanics that had come about during a lecture on the effects of cumulative trauma sports injuries (i.e., guys who run wrong, swing their bat wrong, serve a tennis ball wrong, etc.). So we taped the hips and knees during specific types of kicks, the lumbar spine and thoraco-lumbar junction during lower extremity basics (kicks, small foot maneuvers, etc.), the shoulder during specific movements with the potential to create wear and tear for martial arts enthusiasts (reverse punches, upward blocks delivered to the side vs front, and backnuckles delivered to the side vs to the front). We also trained the VF on the cervical spine at the shoulders and base of skull while subjects from kenpo, kajukenbo, TKD, and boxing performed 5-10 repetitions of moves. We taped it, then analyzed the heck outta the tapes. I wish I had them still; I'm sure someone could make a PC friendly file of them, and we could post them here for all to see. But, to the point.

Front kicks are about the only kick that can biomechanically be done safely to chest height. Side kicks and roundhouses -- kicks delivered to the side of the body -- should not be delivered above the level of the belt; ideally, no higher than your own bladder (anatomically just slightly lower than the articulations of the hip joint). Doing so either 1) places more stress on intra-articular and peri-articular tissues than they were meant to have, or 2) requires accomodation and compensations at other places in the body (i.e., knees, spine at lumbo-pelvic junction, others) which create a whole set of injuries on their own. 

We are designed to step high and reach forward with a foot, then pull the ground we gained to us (relatively)...the gluteus max, hamstrings, sacrospinalis, contralateral adductors, and some buncha other muscles come into maximum play with actions similar to walking up a hill, or stairs, or reaching far forward in a sprinting stride, then recoiling the leg back to the body to take the ground you covered in the forward stretch phase of the running gait. A front kick is akin to placing your foot on the hillside up in front of your thorax, then changing your mind about going uphill and bringing it back down again. For someone who takes many high steps covering lots of ground (i,.e., hikers, etc.), the flexibility is there to allow this motion to normalize within the complexities of the hip joint and pelvic nutation/counter-nutation rhythems. 

Aside from the un-natural movements employed in martial arts, when, in the course of hunting and gathering, do we whip our leg out to the side, higher than our head? It is not in the natural repetoire of human motion. We can force it, but the price is compression of tissues that do not like to be compressed. 



 

Dig out Snells, Grays, Rohen & Yokuchi, or some other basic anatomy text (I copied some pics from the web, but can't figure how to place them). Look not only at the complex structure of the hip joint itself -- giving up flexibility for stability, and holding that stability in place through a twisted set of very tough ligaments and connective tissue structures -- but also at the relationships of the femoral head in the acetabulum, particularly in relationship to the fovea capitus (little hole in the ball part of the ball and socket hip joint). 



 








There is a ligament & accompanying blood vessel that feeds the hip, and communicates through this tiny hole in the head of the femur, *within* the joint capsule of the hip itself. The fibrous capsule of the hip is twisted to maintain an optimal strength-tension curve relationship, providing stability to the hip joint while facing the correct parts of the femoral head to the articulating surface of the acetabulum (the ball in the socket). Superficial and deep muscles that cross the hip joint support it further in specific planes of motion. There are hip flexors (muscles that move the thigh forward or pick the knee up towards the sky out in front of you), hip adductors and abductors (some that sway the leg away from you at the hip, and some that sway it back to you); extensors (butt muscles that lift your heel rearwards); and external and internal rotators (allowing you to turn your toes in, or out).

"Pure" movements will consist of one or more of these motions, preferably not combining more than 2 sets of motion. I.e., hip flexion with external rotation (iliopsoas, with assistance from some of the deep 6 and piriformis, plus either gracilis or sart...can't recall specifically, been too long and am too lazy to fetch a reference)...the motion used in picking your leg up, and stepping forward with it towards a front twist. There are no natural combinations for picking your leg up and out to the side, straightening it, then elevating it to chest level or above. It's made possible by the assistance of abdominal and lumbar lateral flexors (i.e., quadratus lumborum, others), and by a quick contraction of major external rotators (gluteus medius), complemented with a counter contraction of hip flexors and thigh extensors (psoas, sartorios, quads, etc.). This combination of possible, but unnatural, motions essentially forces the femoral head to engage in an infero-lateral glide within the acetabulum. Not possible as a true movement, so hip flexion takes over and, at the last moment, pulls the ball rearward in the socket to allow for the forward relative movement of the kicking leg (in the roundhouse), or the snapped-forward movement of the hip joint when a side kick is delivered to 8:30 or 3:30, since the hip jonit wil not allow for straight lateral elevation to a true relative 3:00 or 9:00 at high altitudes. 





*Muscular anatomy is what the thing is. Biomechanics is what it does. The muscles listed at the top of the chart are for internal or external rotation...obturator niternus and externus, superior and inferior gamellus, quadratus femoris, gluteus minimus, and piriformis. The closest muscle to lateral elevation is the tensor fascia latae...only about the size of a silver dollar, and clearly not designed to carry the full weight of the limb into lateral elevation.*

On VF, there is a violent snapping of the hip in the joint, starting on one path, then being suddenly and forcefully yanked in another. This places undue stress on a number of structures:
1. The fibrous hip capsule
2. The articular hyaline cartilage of the hip joint (a slick, shiny surface joints are supposed to glide over)
3. The artery & ligament as they communicate through the fovea capitalis
4. The sacroiliac ligaments on both the ipsilateral and contralateral sides relative to the kick, but more on the ipsilateral side
5. The lumbar discs and zygoapophyseal joint capsules of the bottom three spinal articulations.

I guarantee that, after only one year of high kicking in any of the planes other than a front kick, and even there higher than your own sternum, you will start having cracks in the articular surfaces of the hip joint; stress injuries (sprains & strains) to the fibrous hip capsule & assisting musculature, annular fissures to the bottom 2-3 lumbar discs, facet joint damage to at least the bottom three articulations of the low back, and tissue degradation within the hip joint itself secondary to compromised blood supply. Additionally, I have seen the before and after x-rays of the hips of guys who have spent about a year of training in kicking arts (most specifically, TKD & Thai, as well as "match-style" kenpo). There is an early degenerative change visible on plain film x-ray called a "sub-chondral cyst". Basically, this is where a rough load was placed on the joint, and a tiny fracture occurred in the plates between the different levels of cartilage & bone, causing some hyaline cartilage -- the smooth, glassy stuff -- to get pushed under pressure to the area just beneath the outer shell of main bone; like a piece of carpet getting pushed under itself. On x-ray, it looks like intermittent bubbles along the articulating surfaces of the hip joint. It is an early sign of advanced degeneration. A bad thing. It means the biomechanics of the hip have been compromised, and with every step, the wear and tear on that joint is greater than it would have been without the cysts. On film, it's like seeing 45 year old hips in 25 year old men. All from kicking high.

It ain't just a theory, folks. Many years ago, some fringe nutjob made a connection between smoking, and lung cancer. It started with the simple observation that smokers got it a lot more than non-smokers. Then for years the tobacco companies denied it, while thoracic, cardio and lung surgeons knew better. Kicking high in any plane is a bad idea. Here's the early warnings; time will show more of this surfacing as the effects of age are exacerbated by the effects of poor kicking habits. But we'll never get the funding the medical community got for cancer research, so we need to listen to subtler signals and signs. Tess feels it in her cage, because the pelvis and hips can't get there without enlistnig the back for help. People feel it in their knees, because with the stability of the hip joint compromised, somebody has to hold your ridiculously imbalanced butts up off the floor. (incidently, also causes knee damage, by placing increased stress on the menisci in the knees via semi-membranosis, plantaris, and other muscles that go from hip to knee and foot/ankle/foreleg to knee). The hip joint and low back joints on the side of the kicknig leg take a beating, while the knee of the supporting leg takes one.

In short, if you value the idea of orthopedic surgery at a younger-than-necessary age, keep on high-kickin. In TKD? switch your focus from kicking high, to kicking hard at a lower elevation. Especially if you're a woman. The cards are already stacked against you for hip and bone health problems; why add to it? And if you're a man? Well...weren't all the pioneers and seniors mentioned earlier men? No one is immune to the effects of crappy, unwise biomechanics. It may look good and feel great when you do it, but it's a bad idea. I walk like an old man with a load in his pants because of the damage I did to my own hips and low back, training to kick high, fast & pretty. I used to be able to throw 100's of high repetitions in training, and could smack plenty-o-folk in the head while sparring without tipping my head back (the classic compromise made in TKD to help get the leg higher). With a 2nd ni TKD, I spent lots of time training jump spin kicks. I used to watch Gil Kim, from Hwarang-Do, do his...sucker would graze the cieling tiles with near vertical spreads. I decided I wanted to be able to do that, and actually got close. Now, I can barely throw 10 proper kicks knee-high before my back starts screaming at me. Then, it takes about 3 days of advil megadosing before I can walk in some semblence of normalcy. I gotta find some old photos or video so Doc doesn't think I'm just fibbin about having been able to kick, once.

Preventive medicine = Is it bad for you? Then stop it.

Regards,


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## MJS (Feb 17, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Tonight during my 4th class I had the pleasure of learning a bunch of new kicks. I have always had what I consider tender hips..meaning it doesn't take much to make them sore. After doing these kicks my hips were screaming at me.
> 
> Is there any kind of exercises or stretches that can help me strengthen the hips and avoid this discomfort. I was very hesitant to do some of the kicks and I don't want to feel that way.
> 
> ...


 
Anytime you begin a movement that is something that you've never done before, some soreness is going to be normal.  Proper warmups are very important.  How long are the warmups/stretching in class?  You may want to consider doing some warmups prior to the beginning of class.  At the end of class, you may also want to do some stretching after the class is over.

With time, once your body gets used to the movements that you're doing, you'll find that things get easier.

Mike


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 17, 2006)

Wow great advice all around! Thanks to everyone!

We did do a pretty good warm up prior to doing the kicks, probably a good 20 minutes or more of jumping jacks and push ups and jogging in place etc. I definately broke more then a light sweat  (but I was also proud that I kept up with a class full of guys half my age).

Today I feel pretty good actually. My hip feels just a bit tight, but not a lot of pain. Even last night, I can't say I was in a LOT of pain, just some tenderness after kicking. I will definately heed all of your advice and pay attention to the warm ups before and after. This morning I am gonna hit the gym and work this tightness out some.

Thanks again for all the great responses. Now if someone could tell me how to become more coordinated and less the stumbling bumbling idiot while trying to do these kicks, that would be perfect 

Kerry


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## kenposikh (Feb 17, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Wow great advice all around! Thanks to everyone!
> 
> We did do a pretty good warm up prior to doing the kicks, probably a good 20 minutes or more of jumping jacks and push ups and jogging in place etc. I definately broke more then a light sweat  (but I was also proud that I kept up with a class full of guys half my age).
> 
> ...


 
Hi Kerry,

did you read my earlier post? if so what did you and others think of it.


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 17, 2006)

Yes I did read your post. In fact I just read it again and I am going to print it out when I get to work today. Lots of great stuff in there. The roundhouse kick was the one that gave me the most grief last night btw.

I didn't feel quite so much discomfort when I did keep the kicks low, but in looking around the room I saw all the guys kicking up high and so I tried to follow suit thinking I wasn't doing them correctly. Apparently what you are saying is this is a no-no. So I think from here on out I will not try to do what they are doing, and just do what feels comfortable to my body. Thanks for the great info. As I said I will print it out and read it again and try to absorb it all later today. I will probably have some questions for you then. Thanks!


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## jonah2 (Feb 17, 2006)

kenposikh said:
			
		

> Hope this helps stolen from another thread here and used with the permission of Dr Dave,
> ......


 
Thanks Amrik for posting that. Dr Dave certainly has a wonderful way of explaining some technical stuff in way a dulard like me can understand and relate to.

BuddhaGirl, I have had ongoing lower back and hip niggles over the last 5 years or so. I am sure they are down to 1 - incorrect kicking technique and 2 - trying desperately to do the high kicks like the kids do!.

After showing the Chyropractor(sp) the movements involved in both roundhouse and side kick at high level, his first comment was 'well you can stop that for a start'

I was given a couple of mild streches excercises that have helped dramatically. But, the one thing that has helped was to ignor high targets with anything but the front kick. 

Seek advice from someone who understands anotomy and run through the movements involved. This may be your instructor, however, a second opinion is always a good idea. You only have one body with no spare bits, you don't want to ware it out before your done living

jonah


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## kenposikh (Feb 17, 2006)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Thanks Amrik for posting that. Dr Dave certainly has a wonderful way of explaining some technical stuff in way a dulard like me can understand and relate to.
> 
> BuddhaGirl, I have had ongoing lower back and hip niggles over the last 5 years or so. I am sure they are down to 1 - incorrect kicking technique and 2 - trying desperately to do the high kicks like the kids do!.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Jonah,

yes Dr Dave is certainly a very knowledgeable man.

How's the training going? Well I hope

Hope to see you soon


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## eyebeams (Feb 17, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Tonight during my 4th class I had the pleasure of learning a bunch of new kicks. I have always had what I consider tender hips..meaning it doesn't take much to make them sore. After doing these kicks my hips were screaming at me.
> 
> Is there any kind of exercises or stretches that can help me strengthen the hips and avoid this discomfort. I was very hesitant to do some of the kicks and I don't want to feel that way.
> 
> ...



Try shoulder bridges. With your feet and shpoulders on the ground,push up to that you form a bridge with your hips at the highest point.

You ca also condition with seiza lifts. Sit in seiza (butt on your heels, knees forward) and push your hips up. For those, make sure your knees are properly warmed up.

Finally, leg lifts (front, back, cross body and side), squats, abs and lower back excercises should help. Legs and core ae what you want to hit.


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## jonah2 (Feb 17, 2006)

kenposikh said:
			
		

> Hi Jonah,


Amrik,
PM'd you - Thanks, Jonah


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## Jagdish (Feb 18, 2006)

I have some questions:

1.-Does a high back kick have the same negative effects?

2.-I have noticed most chinese systems don't have roundhouse kicks but cyclone/fan type kicks (stiff legs going diagonally upward, inwardly or outwardly).Are these kicks safe?

3.-working the core will minimize the negative effects?

Yours,

Jagdish


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## Doc (Feb 19, 2006)

Bad news. If your hips are sore and they weren't before, than you're kicking incorrectly. Your basic kicks can be done without injuring the body but it requires specific "index" points the legs must travel through to set up, an prevent injury to joints. keep all your kicks low for now, and never kick above your own waist.


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## Devin_Ken Ryu Kenpo (Feb 19, 2006)

well, splits would help alot, just doing a little at a time..


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## Doc (Feb 20, 2006)

Devin_Ken Ryu Kenpo said:
			
		

> well, splits would help alot, just doing a little at a time..


Negative. Damage to the hip flexors. Don't do them.


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## Doc (Feb 20, 2006)

Jagdish said:
			
		

> I have some questions:
> 
> 1.-Does a high back kick have the same negative effects?
> 
> ...


Anatomically, a high back kick has limited benefit. The higher you go, the harder it is to make contact with the proper kicking surface of the foot, the heel. When you canno longer kick with the heel without turning your foot outward, than you have reached your anatomical limitation.


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Negative. Damage to the hip flexors. Don't do them.


 
Doc,

What stretches do you suggest so as to avoid injury to the hip flexors?

Mike


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## Doc (Feb 20, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> What stretches do you suggest so as to avoid injury to the hip flexors?
> 
> Mike


The bilateral "splits." Unless you start a stretching rountine very young into adulthood, the hip flexors are very vulnerable to damage. All stretching should mimic walking type movements. Mild stretching to the hip flexors is ok, but don't overdo it.


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> The bilateral "splits." Unless you start a stretching rountine very young into adulthood, the hip flexors are very vulnerable to damage. All stretching should mimic walking type movements. Mild stretching to the hip flexors is ok, but don't overdo it.


 
Thanks Doc!:asian:


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