# Those peacefull Palistinians.....



## Twin Fist (Mar 12, 2011)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/us-palestinians-israel-violence-idUSTRE72B0B920110312

(Reuters) - A Jewish  couple and three of their children were stabbed to death in bed in a  West Bank settlement in what Israeli officials said Saturday was an  attack by one or more Palestinians who broke into their home.


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## billc (Mar 12, 2011)

Don't worry, it was probably only members of that radical 10 percent, so there really isn't a problem is there.  At least they didn't kill an abortion doctor.


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## billc (Mar 13, 2011)

Here is an article about the killing of the Jewish family.  I found it at Pajamasmedia.com

http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2011/03/13/naming-the-dead/

From the article:

I first heard about this disgusting act of barbarism from a headline on the Drudge Report. The New York Times, which really never disappoints, today carries a piece under the title &#8220;Israel Approves Settlement Construction.&#8221; Five members of  &#8220;an Israeli family&#8221; &#8212; antiseptically left unnamed by the Times &#8212; were knifed to death in their sleep but the gravamen of the story was that the Israelis responded by deciding to build more settlements on the West Bank, a decision, our former paper of record sniffed, that &#8220;the attack and the government response threatened to drive Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking even further out of reach.&#8221;

What&#8217;s wrong with this picture? The dwindling prospects of &#8220;Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking&#8221; is not equally the fault of that butchery and Israel&#8217;s decision to build more settlements, as the Times implies. That sort of moral equivalence is in fact a moral outrage.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 13, 2011)

Fact remains that those settlers are in a war zone, and are an impediment to the peace process.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 13, 2011)

blaming the victim who was stabbed to death in thier beds.....


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## CanuckMA (Mar 13, 2011)

Not blaming the victims, but they are living in a dangerous place. And there are reports that they had left their doors unlocked and the fence was in need of repairs. There's blamingf the victim, and then there's mitigating risk.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 14, 2011)

what part of this story is more imporatant?


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## CanuckMA (Mar 14, 2011)

Both are important. It should not be lost that a large majority of the settler movement is far right extremists who will not settle for less than the entire Biblical Israel, 'from the Nile to the Euphates'. They put themselves in harm's way for political reasons. While I don't condone the murders of a family, remember that the parents were not poor little innocent folks.


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## Big Don (Mar 14, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> remember that the parents were not poor little innocent folks.


Yeah, raising children is a crime worthy of death.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 14, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Yeah, raising children is a crime worthy of death.


 
Raising children in the middle of hostile territory to make a political point is not the wisest choice.


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## Big Don (Mar 14, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Raising children in the middle of hostile territory to make a political point is not the wisest choice.


There hadn't been terrorism in Itamar since 2002, so, is living in Israel "Raising children in the middle of hostile territory to make a political point"
Probably their fault because they were Jews, then...


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## CanuckMA (Mar 14, 2011)

Big Don said:


> There hadn't been terrorism in Itamar since 2002, so, is living in Israel "Raising children in the middle of hostile territory to make a political point"
> Probably their fault because they were Jews, then...


 
They're in the West Bank, not Israel.


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## Big Don (Mar 14, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> They're in the West Bank, not Israel.


Do you understand how nations get land?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Do you understand how nations get land?


Do you understand that because this is a process of getting land that people don't want to part with, the occasional settler may be stabbed in their bed.
Sean


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## Twin Fist (Mar 14, 2011)

hold up

there was a war, the arabs LOST so they dont get to set any terms

The Israelis WON, so if they want to build a settlement there, THEY CAN, that land was war booty, won in war.

plus, let me remind you that the "peacefull palistinian" stabbed an INFANT to death in it's crib.


yes, please, lets continue to make excuses for the murderer of INFANTS


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> hold up
> 
> there was a war, the arabs LOST so they dont get to set any terms
> 
> ...


Perhaps the people who didn't get killed in the war, consider the matter unsettled. I'm sure once they read your post they might change their attitude, but I doubt it. Americans kill babies all the time, does that make the United States un-peacefull?
Sean


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## Big Don (Mar 14, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Perhaps the people who didn't get killed in the war, consider the matter unsettled. I'm sure once they read your post they might change their attitude, but I doubt it. Americans kill babies all the time, does that make the United States un-peacefull?
> Sean


 Yeah, the losing party rarely considers losing a good thing, does that make it OK to murder children in their beds?
UH? WHAT? Americans kill babies all the time? WTF?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Yeah, the losing party rarely considers losing a good thing, does that make it OK to murder children in their beds?
> UH? WHAT? Americans kill babies all the time? WTF?


Don, you took a single crime commited by some criminal and blamed the Palastinian population. I'm sure that someone in the US killed a baby, say, just last night. Does that mean all Americans are to blame?
Sean


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## Big Don (Mar 14, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Don, you took a single crime commited by some criminal and blamed the Palastinian population. I'm sure that someone in the US killed a baby, say, just last night. Does that mean all Americans are to blame?
> Sean


Are there a bunch of Americans running around, what has been called, in this thread, a "War zone" specifically targeting non-combatants, then cheering the resulting murders?
No. Not by a long shot.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 14, 2011)

Either you agree that it is OK that the occasional child is murdered, or you agree that Palestinians are not peaceful but murderers instead?  No.

There is middle ground.

It is horrible what happened.  The people who did it should be found and punished.

It is also true that most Palestinians do not stab Jewish people to death in their beds.  If they did, there would be a lot more murders.  It's self-evident.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 14, 2011)

Bill,
people in gaza were handing out CANDY to celebrate these deaths

soooooo, i am thinking the average palistinian is apparently just ****ing fine with stabbing jewish babies in thier cribs


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 14, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Both are important. It should not be lost that a large majority of the settler movement is far right extremists who will not settle for less than the entire Biblical Israel, 'from the Nile to the Euphates'. They put themselves in harm's way for political reasons. While I don't condone the murders of a family, remember that the parents were not poor little innocent folks.


 
funny how when people who choose to live in an earthquake zone, hurricane zone, tornado zone, flood zone, or fire zone are effected they are victims who need everyones help... yet when someone who lives in what you are deciding to term a war zone.... no war there btw Israel owns it. Terrorist problem sounds more like it..then they are part of the problem?? interesting.. which makes me wonder would you consider the people who died in 911 in the towers as part of the problem? hrmm


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## granfire (Mar 14, 2011)

Well, it's the 'West Bank' it is not considered Israel, or the Israely government would not be able to shut the Palestinian population out at the boarder everytime the wind blows. 

The settlers are by their nature, as mentioned above, not exactly innocent lambs. That are in fact more like instigators, finger in your eye type of people. It's a sticking point in Israely politics that they continue to allow settlements in area like the Westbank, Gaza strip and previously the Golan Hights as well, I am sure, even though the public conscensus has come to the conclusion that this is not right. 

I don't consider Palestinians as being angels, however their counterparts are non either. 

Killing a family in their beds is not something anybody can condone. But chances are if they would have been approached during day light they would have covered the area with a spray of machine gun...because, yes, those settlers are not a bunch of meek pioneers (which does not go together anyhow) but, like I said, pretty much finger in your eye instigators. Making a point.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 14, 2011)

ok well I was under the impressiont hat Israel did in fact "own" or control those areas and the issue was other then who owned it, but rather who should live there?


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## granfire (Mar 14, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> ok well I was under the impressiont hat Israel did in fact "own" or control those areas and the issue was other then who owned it, but rather who should live there?



I think the ownership of those above mentioned strips is still something of a sticky point, why else would they still be marked on all the new maps. 

It's a politicum, it does no longer reflect reality, true, but the reality is also not quiet reflected in legal means. Jerusalem is still divided, moving east as a jew is risky. Many years ago there was some sort of uproar about a Jewish business man wanting to build an appartment building in east Jerusalem - for Jewish inhabitants. 

To me the situation is much like the American settlers moving into Indian territories. On many levels actually, from the support of the powerful to the results on an individual level.

Israel does control the area, true enough. As to the matter of who should live there....I have the impression the settlers are ther with the intention to displace the Arabic (AKA Palestinian) population. Supposedly there are 2 different set of rules for those 2 groups: The Jewish settlers can build anything, any where, any time, the others don't and often find their houses crumbling under a rocket. I don't know if it is indeed true, but the hint of impropriety makes for good fuel.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 14, 2011)

Israel controls the border with the WB. The territory, like Gaza, was aquired in the '67 and '73 wars. However, they are not part of Israel. They are usually reffered to as 'occupied' or 'disputed'. 

The government's attitude towards the settlers varies depending as to who is in power, but in the event of an actual peace agreement and the formation of a Palestinian State, a lot of those setllers will be forcibly removed from the WB. Look at the withdrawal from Gaza. 

And while the WB is a lot more stable than Gaza, it's actually one of the fastest growing economies in the region, there are still extremists on both sides who like nothing better than to stir the pot.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 14, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> Bill,
> people in gaza were handing out CANDY to celebrate these deaths



Several news sources reported that "members of Hamas" handed out candy in Rafah.  I have yet to see any verified sources; so far the only reputable news sources have only said 'reportedly'.

But let's say it happened...for the sake of argument...



> soooooo, i am thinking the average palistinian is apparently just ****ing fine with stabbing jewish babies in thier cribs



Is the average Palestinian handing out candy?  The entire nation is just convulsed with joy?

Again, I am not saying that murdering babies is just fine and dandy, or that there are not Palestinians who celebrated the news of the murders.  I *am* saying that the average Palestinian isn't interested in murdering Jewish settlers in the disputed territories, or those settlers would all be dead.

So I have to reject that reasoning.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 14, 2011)

It's the same logic that says Israel is commiting genocide on the Palestinians at the same time complaining that the small borders can't contain the growing Palestinian population.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 14, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Israel controls the border with the WB. The territory, like Gaza, was aquired in the '67 and '73 wars. However, they are not part of Israel. They are usually reffered to as 'occupied' or 'disputed'.




not by israel. The israeli's WON, it is thiers


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## granfire (Mar 14, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> not by israel. The israeli's WON, it is thiers



Well, if they claim it, why all that nonsense...
Truth is, it's not been undisputed or verified or ratified or signed off on in any treaty.
Unlike Pommern, and East Prussia which had been lingering in a simmilar fate of unfinalized ownership, apparently the natives object to the conquerers.

Maybe if things were finalized things could settle to something that would qualify for normal in many parts of the world. 

It's a lot of the Zionistic BS that plays into the settlement politics.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 14, 2011)

I instinctively want to argue with that, John, as the re-invention of Israel is 'our' fault in the first place.  

For it was the Jewish people that 'lost' quite some time ago (tho' it has to be said that some small number of Jews have still lived in the region for all the intervening centuries).  

But given that the British Empire played that "You lost so it's ours" game quite successfully I'd feel something of a historical hypocrite to so argue.  After all, possession by conquest is one of the oldest games in the book.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> not by israel. The israeli's WON, it is thiers


You keep talking like this is a game and people are just being poor sports. The people that live there don't want to be put into refugee camps, so that Israeli families can settle. Is that so hard to understand? Can't some of this just be a reaction, to being displaced?
Sean


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## Twin Fist (Mar 14, 2011)

losing has consequences. 

when the arabs LOST, they lost that land. They should learn to wage war better.

This is the same as the confederate states shelling the north, and setting off car bombs north of the mason dixon line TODAY.

I am gonna guess you would be less forgiving of that..,...........


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## Big Don (Mar 14, 2011)

granfire said:


> Well, if they claim it, why all that nonsense...
> Truth is, it's not been undisputed or verified or ratified or signed off on in any treaty.
> Unlike Pommern, and East Prussia which had been lingering in a simmilar fate of unfinalized ownership, apparently the natives object to the conquerers.
> 
> ...


It's a lot of the anti-Semitic BS that plays into the settlement politics. Israel is the ONLY nation in history asked by so many to "return" land that they took, after they were ATTACKED.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> losing has consequences.
> 
> when the arabs LOST, they lost that land. They should learn to wage war better.
> 
> ...


Actually, it isn't the same at all. The North didn't decide to settle the south into camps; so, Northerners could settle that land. 
Sean


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## granfire (Mar 14, 2011)

Big Don said:


> It's a lot of the anti-Semitic BS that plays into the settlement politics. Israel is the ONLY nation in history asked by so many to "return" land that they took, after they were ATTACKED.



I don't put it on anti semitic BS. I am putting it on BS.

The sad fact is, nobody wants those poor bastard Palestinians. I think Jordan has washed their hands of it, the rest of the world has no use for them, unless of course to fuel the entifada...

Israel would like them gone rather yesterday than today. 

Fact is, you can't right a wrong with another wrong. The people who live there now are pawns on international politics. 

I keep thinking id Israel just draw the borders the way they actually read as of now and gave those palestinians Israely pasports and all that jazz, quit treating them as nondesirables things could change dramatically.


But then again, I think Nostradamus foresaw the end of the world when there is peace in the Middle East....


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2011)

Big Don said:


> It's a lot of the anti-Semitic BS that plays into the settlement politics. Israel is the ONLY nation in history asked by so many to "return" land that they took, after they were ATTACKED.


Being anti-semitic, and being against Israeli occupation of disputed land is not the same thing, Don.
Sean


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## Big Don (Mar 14, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Being anti-semitic, and being against Israeli occupation of disputed land is not the same thing, Don.
> Sean


In my book, when you use the word Zionist, as if it is a slur, that crosses the line.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2011)

Big Don said:


> In my book, when you use the word Zionist, as if it is a slur, that crosses the line.


I have never done that; however, I will keep that in mind.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2011)

Big Don said:


> In my book, when you use the word Zionist, as if it is a slur, that crosses the line.


If a Palistinian were to use the term as a slur, it would make sense that they were saying Pro-Israel.
Sean


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## Big Don (Mar 14, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I have never done that; however, I will keep that in mind.
> Sean


I didn't mean to imply that you did, however, if you look up thread, you'll see it used that way.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 15, 2011)

Israel does not want the WB. They don't want Gaza either. Problem is, neither do Egypt and Jordan. Israel tried to give it back. It didn't work. So now those to territories are in a no-mans land. Gaza is ruled by Hamas, Israel has totally withdrawn. The WB is a bit more fluid, usually more stable. It may be controlled and secured to a large extent by Israel, but it is not part of Israel. The reason Israel can'y justy declae a border is that while some settlements are deep inside the WB, a lot are just by the border. The Green line does not work. It will require a lot of give and take. Jerusalem is an issue, but so is Hebron.


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## Big Don (Mar 15, 2011)

The Two State Solution, is worthless, it is impossible to have two nations live peacefully side by side when one is dominated by a terrorist organization whose charter demands the destruction of Israel. The Israelis have tried everything short of mass suicide to gain peace, and yet, nothing is ever good enough.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2011)

you cannot bargain with fanatics


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> you cannot bargain with fanatics



Quotable line there.


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Big Don said:


> In my book, when you use the word Zionist, as if it is a slur, that crosses the line.




I said Zionistic and as I understand it it describes the ultra right faction of the political spectrum who also support the settlement politics.


never knew it was a slur.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2011)

it very much IS a slur gran


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Well one never ceases to learn.


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## Blade96 (Mar 15, 2011)

I don't even really know what a 'zionist' is.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 15, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> it very much IS a slur gran


No it isn't. It can be meant as a slur but, it most surly is not a slur. Get a flippin' clue. Thank you.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 15, 2011)

granfire said:


> Well one never ceases to learn.


I hope you don't learn yourself too much from Twin Fist. Zionists are proud to be Zionists.
Sean


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## CanuckMA (Mar 15, 2011)

granfire said:


> I said Zionistic and as I understand it it describes the ultra right faction of the political spectrum who also support the settlement politics.
> 
> 
> never knew it was a slur.


 
It is usually used not so much as a slur, but as a word instead of 'Jews' in a pegorative context.

A Zionist is a Jew who wishes the establishment and continued existence of the State of Israel. I'm a Zionist, and hardly a right-wing settler.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> No it isn't. It can be meant as a slur but, it most surly is not a slur. Get a flippin' clue. Thank you.
> Sean




that is a violation of the TOS


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 15, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> that is a violation of the TOS


So.


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> It is usually used not so much as a slur, but as a word instead of 'Jews' in a pegorative context.
> 
> A Zionist is a Jew who wishes the establishment and continued existence of the State of Israel. I'm a Zionist, and hardly a right-wing settler.




Then I shall extend my apologies to you should I have insulted you.


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> that is a violation of the TOS




Do you have this phrase hot keyed or something? You use it a lot (and usually on something benign, too)


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## Blade96 (Mar 15, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> A Zionist is a Jew who wishes the establishment and continued existence of the State of Israel. I'm a Zionist, and hardly a right-wing settler.



Ok, thanks.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2011)

i am trying to play within the rules Gran, something i didnt always do, and it is in fact a violation of the MT TOS


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i am trying to play within the rules Gran, something i didnt always do, and it is in fact a violation of the MT TOS



To be ignorant of alternate meanings of terms?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 15, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i am trying to play within the rules Gran, something i didnt always do, and it is in fact a violation of the MT TOS


Was it the use of the term flippin'? I was just wondering.
Sean


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## Sukerkin (Mar 15, 2011)

As with many words, whether something is a slur or not comes down to the intent of the speaker/writer.  Zionist, in our social context at least, is not a perjorative, being, rather, a description of a political position.

As an open note to all contributors on the site, there is indeed a set of standards of behaviour that are expected of posters here.  If you read something that you think transgresses those codes then the proper approach is to report the post via the authorised channels.

By all means, of course, ask someone to calm down if they are getting overly obnoxious about something and you think that perhaps you can head off a confrontation with a few soft words.

But at the end of the day, there are procedures in place and staff to ensure their execution.  Individual members do not need to perform the functions more properly performed by those who have volunteered to carry them out - they just need to bring any salient matters to the attention of said staff via the RTM feature.


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## fangjian (Mar 15, 2011)

touch of death said:


> was it the use of the term flippin'? I was just wondering.
> sean



i am extremely offended and you will cease and desist from such language!!!!!!


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2011)

granfire said:


> To be ignorant of alternate meanings of terms?



no, telling another poster to "get a flippin clue"

I have been dinged for less than that under the "rudeness" banner


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> no, telling another poster to "get a flippin clue"
> 
> I have been dinged for less than that under the "rudeness" banner



I am certainly clueless what you are speaking off, regular and flippin clues included.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2011)

dont worry about it Gran, it wasnt directed at you, since you are not continually rude. Like i said i am TRYING to play by the rules


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> dont worry about it Gran, it wasnt directed at you, since you are not continually rude. Like i said i am TRYING to play by the rules



Considering it was the 2nd pot shot you took at me, I am not worried but considerably annoyed.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 16, 2011)

gran, i am not saying i will always succeed, but i am trying to limit myself to attacking the opinion, not the person posting it

i may fail, but i will try.

please forgive me if you think i ever cross the line


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## Big Don (Mar 17, 2011)




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## granfire (Mar 17, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> gran, i am not saying i will always succeed, but i am trying to limit myself to attacking the opinion, not the person posting it
> 
> i may fail, but i will try.
> 
> please forgive me if you think i ever cross the line




Considering the way you are cavorting, toying and skipping over the line at your leisure, I am reserving judgment.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 17, 2011)

i dont believe i am.


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