# Karate vs. the Knife.



## arnisador (Jan 12, 2003)

A commonly heard statement in the FMA is that most traditional martial artists aren't prepared to face a competent knife-wielding attacker. It's a given that _anyone_ is in bad shape if he or she is unarmed and the opponent has a knife--those are long odds--but there's a belief that traditional karate, Tae Kwon Do, aikido, etc., defenses are especially unrealistic. Certainly I have often seen people in these systems practice defenses against knife attacks that are lunge/reverse punches while holding a knife, which is an unrealistic attack if the attacker is knowledgeable about knives and knife fighting.

What do karateka think? As a former karateka who is now a FMA practitioner, I know that studying the FMA made it clear to me that I knew much less about defending against the knife than I had thought I did! On the other hand, the one time I was attacked with a knife (omitting the time I was able to get away), I did use some of my karate training as well as my FMA training.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 12, 2003)

Here's the reason I believe most karate and karate-like systems don't appear to have realistic knife defenses:  they don't really train you on how to use a knife.  You're taught defenses against a weapon you don't use, so can't fully understand.  It's sort of like a defensive driving instructor telling you how to drive safely, when he himself doesn't know how to drive at all.

The only way to truly appreciate this problem is to do some bladework with an experienced FMA practitioner, or possibly a student of a Southeast Asian system that also trains blades.

I've had years of Okinawa-te training, and just my first blade lesson with my FMA training was a real eye opener. 

Cthulhu


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## Yari (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Here's the reason I believe most karate and karate-like systems don't appear to have realistic knife defenses:  they don't really train you on how to use a knife.  .
> 
> Cthulhu *



I believe this is true for most styles.

If you don't how to use the weapon, be it a strick, kick, knife, bo, gun what ever, you'll never know what it really takes to defend yourself against it. (YOu don't know what your up against).

/Yari


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## sammy3170 (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *A commonly heard statement in the FMA is that most traditional martial artists aren't prepared to face a competent knife-wielding attacker. It's a given that anyone is in bad shape if he or she is unarmed and the opponent has a knife--those are long odds--but there's a belief that traditional karate, Tae Kwon Do, aikido, etc., defenses are especially unrealistic. Certainly I have often seen people in these systems practice defenses against knife attacks that are lunge/reverse punches while holding a knife, which is an unrealistic attack if the attacker is knowledgeable about knives and knife fighting.
> 
> What do karateka think? As a former karateka who is now a FMA practitioner, I know that studying the FMA made it clear to me that I knew much less about defending against the knife than I had thought I did! On the other hand, the one time I was attacked with a knife (omitting the time I was able to get away), I did use some of my karate training as well as my FMA training. *



Thats the exact reason I started training with the scientific Fighting Congress as we did very little knife defence and nothing on learning how to wield a knife.

Cheers'
Sammy


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## Cthulhu (Jan 13, 2003)

And of course, the best defense, if possible, is to just run away.  Even an unskilled person can use a knife.  It's not hard to grasp the concept of 'pointy end goes in the other guy'.  

Cthulhu


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## yilisifu (Jan 13, 2003)

I think that most martial artists aren't adequately prepared for such situations.  Most of the "standard knife defenses" I've seen over the years simply will not work and in many cases, they leave the defender very vulnerable.

   Yilichuan teaches very effective defensive tactics against the knife and the training for these defenses is progressive and considered a very important part of training.

   The same is true for handguns (provided the armed aggressor is close enough to reach out and caress).


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## KennethKu (Jan 13, 2003)

Does any one has an opinion on Krav Maga's  defence against armed attack?


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 17, 2003)

I agree with the point that if your not trained in a weapon then you don't fully know how to defend against it. At my dojo we are very knowledgeable about how to defend and attack against weapons in our system kama, sai, katana, bo, tonfa, and nanchaku. But we don't focus on too much knife defense. We don't train in knife's so we don't practice defense against them too often.


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## yilisifu (Jan 17, 2003)

Defense against weapons is actually a specialty of Yilichuan.  One set of defensive maneuvers works against virtually any hand-held weapon (that is, a weapon which requires one to strike with it) such as the knife, bludgeon, baseball bat, razor blade, sword, or whatever.
   A second set is designed for use against firearms (handguns).

   Training for defense against an armed aggressor requires step-by-step training on a regular basis.  Practicing it just once in a while won't do the job.

   Of course, we also train to fight WITH a blade.  The Yili knife-fighting techniques are considered secret techniques and are extremely effective.


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## Robbo (Jan 17, 2003)

> against weapons in our system kama, sai, katana, bo, tonfa, and nanchaku.



What are the chances of being attacked with these weapons?

Or...does a defense against a edged weapon work regardless (to some extent)?

Rob

Apparently I posted too late...see above


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 18, 2003)

Yes I agree Robo, the Bo is actually not that hard to believe. If your about to get into a fight with someone and they see a broomstick laying around then it could be used as a bo. We use our sai defense techniques for a knife. We practice defense against a knife it's just not aimed directly for knife.


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 18, 2003)

Yes defense against an edged or small bladed weapon (katana, sai) does work to some extent.


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## Robbo (Jan 18, 2003)

> We use our sai defense techniques for a knife



I guess I'm getting nitty-gritty here but...

Wouldn't it be more appropiate to use sai defense as for against a club? A sai doensn't have much in common with a knife except for the pointy tip.

It's just that self-defense are going to be boken up in to catagories such as against clubbing weapons, slashing/stabbing weapons discharging weapons, flexible weapons

A knife fighter is not going to stab you the same way you would stab with the sai. The short compact subtle movements that would do great damage with a knife would be ineffective if done with a sai.

The method of attack with some of the 'traditional' weapons does not seem to not translate well to what is happening in the street today.

This is how I would look at attacks from the 'traditional' weapons,

kama ---> dangerous club
sai ---> club
katana ---> big knife (run very fast in other dir)
bo ---> big club
tonfa ---> ???
nanchaku ---> chain or flexible

Using the sai as an example I don't see the correlation to a knife attack. And I have no idea what a tonfa would translate to.

Rob


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## arnisador (Jan 18, 2003)

A typical knife attack is actually very often either a box-cutter (basically all edge, not stabbing) or a shank such as a screwdriver (basically stabbing only, no edge). So a sai has aspects of a large shank.

What types of empty-hand defenses does one use against a sai?


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## Robbo (Jan 18, 2003)

> What types of empty-hand defenses does one use against a sai?



Assuming you've dropped your katana?

Sorry, just kidding.

Learning those techniques to preserve the traditional aspects is cool. But the amount of work you have to put into weapons vs. empty hand is considerable.

I would rather give my training partner a screwdriver or a box cutter with the blades removed and see how the defenses actually prove out. Do the bulk of the work with the weapons that you will most likely be attacked with and move it backwards to traditional weapons when you've got it down.

If you want to put it into a generic format then get a 4-6" knife, short (6") and long club (12-18") and chain. If you could defend against these consistantly then I would say you have a good shot on the street (pun intended)

But firearms are a whole other consideration.

Rob


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 18, 2003)

As I've said before there is very little knife defense. We are a very traditional martial art. We know how to defend against the jabs of a sai so I think that that could somewhat be translated against a knife. Very vaguely so. Arnisador to answer your question you can hit pressure points on the arm and do grabs also. I haven't done training against or with anything but a Bo and very vaguely with a katana so I'm not fully qualified to answer your questions. I have seen others do defense works with these weapons.


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## IMAA (Jan 19, 2003)

Very interesting I ran upon this,  I was just discussing this yesterday with a gentlemen that had came to me for a lesson in FMA knife training.  He is a traditional Karateka.  

  We discussed the use of edged weapon training within karate.

  And as we discussed it,  he and I agreed that the normal % of training of the edged weapon that he recieved and what I learnt as a Karateka was that from a "lunge, thrust" rather than a slash.
or an over head downward stabbing motion.  And from both our experience we played with several different things that we were taught and what the normal defense was.   THEN I pulled a "reality check" on him and from he thrust, stab, lunge I pulled back and began to slash,  low and behold all the traditional knife techniques became rather quickly useless.   Then after that I had his undivine attention and I began illistrating some of the FMA knife work,  on how we guide, follow, contour, and re-direct etc... he was just blown away.  By the end of the 2 hour training session we had, he had felt he came away with a new outlook on knife/edged weapon attack training.   And for further notion he is a L.E.O. so it defenitly would possibly save his neck on the street had he ever or will ever encounter such a situation.   

My only suggestion to knife fighting as i have heard is to understand the knife, you must explore its whole option and play with it, spar with it, (training of course) and search for what works.  Instead of practicing a thrust disarm,  Slash at the opponent, cut at the opponent, once you thrust turn and slice at the arm,  thats realistic knife training.  Go for the throat, the abdomonin, the leg, the kidney,  areas of high arterial location, such as the armpit, wrist, back of knee, ackilies tendon, inside the elbow area, back of the hand... these are common knife attack areas aginst a skilled knife fighter...    Just something to practice with if your interested in learning knife defense.... MAIN THING NOT TO TRY TO DO, IS GO FOR A DISARM,  IF IT IS THERE THEN SO BE IT,  GOAL TO KNIFE FIGHTING IS MAINLY TO DETER IT, OR MANAGE YOURSELF AWAY FROM IT, FIND AN EQUALIZER, LEARN TO MANUEVER AWAY RATHER THAN TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE WEAPON.    I was once told a rather unique statement in knife fighting,  "thiers only 2 types of people that leave a knife fight"
THE WOUNDED and or the DEAD.   A good chance that if you attack a knife weilder and try for a disarm and even as an accident you could end up getting a nasty cut.  

Just my outlook on edged weapons.
Cory


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## yilisifu (Jan 19, 2003)

Well put.  I tell my students that if they become involved in such a confrontation, they are guaranteed to get cut.  Then the only question is whether or not they have a strong enough spirit to continue to the end or if they'll "turtle-up" and die.

   We try to make our knife-defense training as realistic and as practical as possible.  

   Fortunately, the majority of thugs out there who pull knives on citizens aren't well-trained in the use of the weapon.  But learning it's use and also how to defend oneself against it gives you an edge (no pun intended).


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## Matt Stone (Jan 19, 2003)

I have to agree with my Sifu...

Something I think most folks forget is that the typical idiot we are up against is _not_ a trained martial artist.  The "bad guy" is unlikely to have the discipline, money, dedication or time to put into training in martial arts, regardless of style.

So training against a sai, bo, nunchaku or tonfa wielding attacker, though a faultless practice in and of itself, would be completely different than dealing with a box cutter weilding, frightened sociopath bent on separating you from your wallet.

I think that if we are going to classify styles into MMA, TMA, etc., we need to define TMA in more detail, to include traditional arts that make use of continual development to deal with advances in technology (just as our archaic ancestors did to deal with the use of weapons instead of simple bare hands), and those that have decided to focus on preservation of the ancient techniques instead.  In the latter case, arts such as iaido, kendo, kobudo come to mind.  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Old Warrior (Jan 19, 2003)

Remembering back to the 60's and early 70's when I studied karate, all of the defensive knife techniques we practiced  had one thing in common - the attacker always commited himself to the thrust.  This allowed all the techniques to work.  We never practiced against a slasher or a knife wielder who was also a martial artist.

Although it is many years later, I remember clearly having reached the conclusion that an unarmed person wasn't likely to win a kinfe fight and that flight is the best defense.  The second best defense was to find a weapon of convenience and try and beat the crap out your attacker anyway you could.  Also, we never practised against multiple attackers with knives.  It is my experience that cowards and thugs are rarely alone and therefore the liklihood of surviving a serious encounter with a few miscreants, unscathed, is minimal.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *  I have to agree with my Sifu...
> 
> Something I think most folks forget is that the typical idiot we are up against is not a trained martial artist.  The "bad guy" is unlikely to have the discipline, money, dedication or time to put into training in martial arts, regardless of style.
> So training against a sai, bo, nunchaku or tonfa wielding attacker, though a faultless practice in and of itself, would be completely different than dealing with a box cutter weilding, frightened sociopath bent on separating you from your wallet. *



I have to echo those sentiments.
Most  nunchaku wielding numnuts do the Bruce Lee version with the weapon which is not that difficult to defend against. In fact I would rather face him than the guy with the box cutter any day.





> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *  I think that if we are going to classify styles into MMA, TMA, etc., we need to define TMA in more detail, to include traditional arts that make use of continual development to deal with advances in technology (just as our archaic ancestors did to deal with the use of weapons instead of simple bare hands), and those that have decided to focus on preservation of the ancient techniques instead.  In the latter case, arts such as iaido, kendo, kobudo come to mind.
> *



Again I agree.
Using Kobudo as a practical weapon art today doesnt make much sense. 
However, the lessons learned from training in Kobudo are useful in empty hand encounters. (Footwork/hand motion/balance/timing/power etc)
 Heck, just training with a weapon in your hand is good for muscular development if nothing else.


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## IMAA (Jan 19, 2003)

quote: Originally posted by Yiliquan1 
I have to agree with my Sifu...

Something I think most folks forget is that the typical idiot we are up against is not a trained martial artist. The "bad guy" is unlikely to have the discipline, money, dedication or time to put into training in martial arts, regardless of style.
So training against a sai, bo, nunchaku or tonfa wielding attacker, though a faultless practice in and of itself, would be completely different than dealing with a box cutter weilding, frightened sociopath bent on separating you from your wallet. 


I agree to a certain point with this,  however thier are alot of THUGS / Gangsters / Common Punks who don't have any idea or degree of understanding how to use a weapon to harm someone, but one thing that has always kinda bothered me in a way, is " how easy would it be for them to learn"?  VIDEO's are put out all the time so someone can make a quick dollar and teaches techniques on knife fighting or weapon fighting and that video could easily get into the wrong hands ie.  Thugs, Gangsters.  And Alot of them do this.   I work in corrections and see it all the time...so it pays to have some idea of knowledge behind how to defend against someone that is skilled.  Not just martial artist.  Gang Bangers fight each other every day to hone thier skills of fighting just aswe as martialartist hone ours.  Yet some train for sport, some for street and some for other martial artist.  So if your gonna train martial arts and learn a defensive technique against any weapon I feel you must train it for all its worth so you can defend it against any situation. You never know if thier will be a time to defend against that weapon weather in tournament, or street survival.   A trained knifer that has all intent to harm you,  WILL!  Just hard facts.  you wont even see it coming.... thats the cold fact of a reality knife weilding attack.  If you see it coming then I think the truth is he wants you to have a chance to defend against him or he really has no buisness with the knife.  If he has intent to do you in,  YOU WOULDNT EVEN SEE IT COMING......

Thanks
just my 2 cents worth.

Cory


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2003)

I was reading Hock Hocheim's CQC magazine the other day. He points out that George Harrison defeated a knife-wielding attacker, despite being injured. There's evidence that not all attackers are equally skilled--though someone attacking a celebrity is surely a special case.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 2, 2003)

Waving the knife is intended primarily to intimidate. The one who is going to stab you may not bother to show you the knife first.


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## yilisifu (Feb 2, 2003)

True.  In any encounter against a knife, you're probably going to get cut.  A single thrust or cut causing immediate death (as seen in Hollywood) is extremely rare.
   So the question is, after you've been hit and you're bleeding, how are you going to respond?  Are you going to"turtle up" and let the aggressor finish the job or are you goingto fight back with everything you've got (and anything you can get your hands on)?


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## chufeng (Feb 2, 2003)

> A single thrust or cut causing immediate death (as seen in Hollywood) is extremely rare.



Say it ain't so...
Does that mean a shaken to the forehead won't work either?

But seriously, most knife injuries are superficial...the ones that penetrate the abdomen may eventually kill you (2 weeks later after you get septic from the spilled bowel contents into the peritoneal space)...even those that cause significant bleeding won't cause you to die right away...you've got plenty of time to kill the bastard that killed you...
The slash across the windpipe WILL NOT kill you...
Now if the carotids are hit, maybe...but the angle of attack is wrong with a lateral slash...

If you've got time (if you've got time...run...unless you are defending a loved one) take off your shirt or jacket and use it as a shield...wrap your arm and then hide behind your arm...

Expect to get cut...don't fear it, though, it doesn't hurt any worse than getting hit by a stick (I know, I've taken a hit from a big knife)...it may not bleed right away, either...so go after the sucker and take him out...

:asian:
chufeng


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## vin2k0 (Apr 15, 2003)

should i be worried if i do very little training against weapons?! i rarely train against knifes but wouldnt be confident in defending against one, and have never practised defending against any other type of weapon. Maybe my normal training could be applied to defending against weapons? But to what extent?


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## Yari (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by vin2k0 _
> *should i be worried if i do very little training against weapons?! *



If you want to defend yourself against a we<pon, you should atleast try it, to see if your assumption of the situation is correct. And then you would know your answer.

/Yari


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## vin2k0 (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yari _
> *If you want to defend yourself against a we<pon, you should atleast try it, to see if your assumption of the situation is correct. And then you would know your answer.
> 
> /Yari *



I have tried defending against a weapon, but only as some people have already discussed... in an un-realistic way. For example, against someone lunging with a knife.


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## yilisifu (Apr 16, 2003)

We begin with standardized forms of attack, then move to more freestyle-type defensive maneuvers.  There are a few principles involved to which students must adhere, and the training is effective.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *We begin with standardized forms of attack, then move to more freestyle-type defensive maneuvers.  There are a few principles involved to which students must adhere, and the training is effective. *



If I were to sum up the way I teach and practice, YOU JUST SAID IT!!:asian:


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## moromoro (Apr 25, 2003)

against a highly skilled knife attacker empty hands defense is almost impossible regardless of the art


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## arnisador (Nov 28, 2005)

moromoro said:
			
		

> against a highly skilled knife attacker empty hands defense is almost impossible regardless of the art


 
That's a common opinion in the FMA, and I agree. But I find that Karateka are less likely to think so!


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 30, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> That's a common opinion in the FMA, and I agree. But I find that Karateka are less likely to think so!


 
As a person I agree with the FMA guys that it is impossible to defend empty-handed against a guy trained in FMA-style knifes.

Nevertheless, Wado-ryu Karate-Do does have a set of techniques (10 basics, with 3-5 henka each) to defend against SINGULAR knife attacks, it's called Tanto Dori no Kata.

On the other hand, many Wado-ka told me that these knife defenses came not from Karate but from Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu, Wado-ryu inherited it from GM. Otsuka (the founder), so we're back into square one


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## TimoS (Nov 30, 2005)

In our karate we have 10 defenses against knife attacks. Most of them have the attacker lunging at us (some don't). Personally, I wouldn't want to try my luck with those against anyone wielding a knife, in real life that is (during practise and especially during belt examinations upper belts have to defend against a sharp knife), but then again I view those mostly as training tools that develop footwork, locks etc. and maybe as something that could be used in a tight spot. Hope I never need to find out if those really work


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## arnisador (Nov 30, 2005)

You train with a live blade?!? That's living dangerously!


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## TimoS (Dec 1, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> You train with a live blade?!?



Sensei insists, so we comply  No accidents so far, but you have to be 2. kyu, or testing for it, before you have to defend against a live blade. That gives you typically 2 - 3 years of training. 

The reason behind his insistence is, as I've understood it, that with a wooden knife your reactions aren't the same. E.g. in tankensabaki 2 defender turns the knife hand towards the attackers throat to unbalance him (a bit hard to explain). Now, if the attacker has a wooden knife, his reactions aren't the same as when a live blade is used. When a live blade is approaching your throat, you instinctively pull back your head. As you do this, you eventually unbalance yourself. Naturally, we don't do this stuff at full speed


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## tellner (Dec 1, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> As a person I agree with the FMA guys that it is impossible to defend empty-handed against a guy trained in FMA-style knifes.



Very difficult, but not impossible. The moment you say it's impossible to defend against XYZ you have said that you are willing to give up and die. That's not a very good mindset to have going into a fight.


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## tellner (Dec 1, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Sensei insists, so we comply  No accidents so far, but you have to be 2. kyu, or testing for it, before you have to defend against a live blade. That gives you typically 2 - 3 years of training.
> 
> The reason behind his insistence is, as I've understood it, that with a wooden knife your reactions aren't the same. E.g. in tankensabaki 2 defender turns the knife hand towards the attackers throat to unbalance him (a bit hard to explain). Now, if the attacker has a wooden knife, his reactions aren't the same as when a live blade is used. When a live blade is approaching your throat, you instinctively pull back your head. As you do this, you eventually unbalance yourself. Naturally, we don't do this stuff at full speed



There are times when it is useful to make things more dangerous. Regular force-on-force training with sharp knives is stupidly dangerous.


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## arnisador (Dec 1, 2005)

tellner said:
			
		

> Very difficult, but not impossible. The moment you say it's impossible to defend against XYZ you have said that you are willing to give up and die. That's not a very good mindset to have going into a fight.


 
I agree. On any given day, anything can happen, and one may be able to escape and live to tell the tale at the least. But, a trained knifer is an extremely dangerous opponent. Frankly, a dedicated knifer is very dangerous--if he is willing to take a shot to get in a stab, it's likely to be a bad day.


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## arnisador (Dec 1, 2005)

tellner said:
			
		

> There are times when it is useful to make things more dangerous. Regular force-on-force training with sharp knives is stupidly dangerous.


 
I don't think partner training with a live blade is a good idea. For added realism we often use aliminum training knives, which look real and have that metal feel. There's also the Shockknife, of course! I find that training with a trusted and honest partner works well for me.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2005)

I have recently reorganized and streamlined my kenpo curriculum (this was discussed in other threads, so I don't want to rehash it all here) but one of the things I did was to eliminate almost all of the knife defenses.  I think they were very very dangerous and would probably get you killed.  There were only one or two things that I felt had a nugget of promise, so I kept them.  All the others, out the door with the rest of the trash.

I don't think it is impossible to defend against a knife wielding opponent, but I think it is very dangerous and for most people, unlikely to be successful.  I dont hold any personal fantasies about this, and I certainly know which group I belong to.


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## chinto01 (Dec 1, 2005)

I do not want to sound like the party pooper here but have you considered looking for another training school just in case TimoS? The insurance company will have a field day with this if someone gets hurt at our dojo while training with live blades.

in the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## TimoS (Dec 1, 2005)

chinto01 said:
			
		

> I do not want to sound like the party pooper here but have you considered looking for another training school just in case TimoS?



No, because quite honestly this is one of the best, if not the best, sensei around here.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2005)

chinto01 said:
			
		

> I do not want to sound like the party pooper here but have you considered looking for another training school just in case TimoS? The insurance company will have a field day with this if someone gets hurt at our dojo while training with live blades.
> 
> in the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


 
ya got a good point here.  He may be the best sensei around, but one nasty injury with a live blade, and I'll bet his financial woes force him to shut down.  Leave it to the insurance companies to spoil all the fun, but it's a fact of life.

Additionally, what if someone actually got killed or maimed?  how's that for spoiling the fun...


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## The Kai (Dec 1, 2005)

If thet are all adultd and they know that they can opt out of any phase of the training, well, let em' train


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## eyebeams (Dec 1, 2005)

I think the problem is that modern karate bunkai are too influenced by jujutsu and Japanese martial arts, where committed attacks are a large part of the preparatory training.

The techniques ought to be much more proactive, starting with adopting a proper posture to recieve an attack. Since a blade often comes out of nowhere, you need to stand at an angle that creates affective distance when a suspicious person closes in.

Receiving techniques are also designed to present minimum exposure of the limbs to injury by presenting the bony side to the attacker.

It's all still very chancy, but one effective defense I've worked against a rubber knife is gedan barai/ura zuki using sen no sen, against a stab for the belly (coming in at about 8:00 from the defender's vantage point). You *immediately* (attack as soon as it is presented, because you will execute  during its extension) press the weapon arm and hit while moving forward. From there you can run away by moving the the right side or attempt to apply a restraint. One of the better ones looks like the awful, awful "X- block," but isn't. It's more like the FMA idea of controlling the weapon by attacking at two different angles.

This is different than defending step through thrust with a step and block. It's proactive and explosive. It *still* doesn't work all the time; luck is a big deal. Plus, the danger is that your commitment creates the problem, when you could have run away. Then again, if you run, you might get stabbed too.


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## Sensei Paul Hart (Dec 17, 2005)

I think that the problem with most of the defense applications, be it empty hand or weapons is that Karate is no longer a fighting art to most, but a sport and a thing we teach our children. The post about using other weapons, specifically the Sai, had some validity in that if you learn to defend against all weapons and you learn also to use all traditional weapons, the weapons on the street will fall into some category in which you have knowledge. A belt? How about a chain whip. A Knife? There are so many bladed weapons, we could go Chinese here or stick with a Japanese Tanto. Do we really think the warriors of yesterday were not prepared if they lost their weapon to defend with the bare hand?

Unfortunately most styles are a shell of the fighting art Karate use to be, IMHO. It falls on us to change that back. Just as the Yin/Yang constantly flows one to the other we should try to allow are art to flow back to a more effective time. Vince Morris, an excellent Shoto stylist is doing this right now. If you have access to the old ways do some research and find out whats missing.


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## chinto (May 27, 2007)

moromoro said:


> against a highly skilled knife attacker empty hands defense is almost impossible regardless of the art


 

agenst a skilled user of most weapons, if you are unarmed you are provably screwed! put something between them and you and run like hell.  

there are techniques that will work agenst most people with a knife, but it will not be like the movies. I was told long ago if a blade is involved you will get cut minumum, so if you can run away... run like hell. but if you can't run, and cant hide?  got nothing to loose, take the man out. dispatch him as fast as you can. can I take the avaridge street punk with a box cutter/sheet rock knife? provably. could i take a skilled FMA or other blade trained man with a bolo or other blade he has trained long and hard with? I dont know.. quite posibly not. the big thing is that most knife altercations are ambushes. If you are ambushed with a knife .. especialy if the knife man is trained, you will provably never see the blade till its in your annatimy and or cut you badly.  people who are serious and trained tend to from what I know of it, do NOT wave the blade around like in west side story. they try to not let you know there is a knife involved..enless its a bolo or large blade like that, and then well when you see it its already in the slash or thrust and provably to late to do any thing but try and get out of the way!


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## chinto (May 27, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> ya got a good point here. He may be the best sensei around, but one nasty injury with a live blade, and I'll bet his financial woes force him to shut down. Leave it to the insurance companies to spoil all the fun, but it's a fact of life.
> 
> Additionally, what if someone actually got killed or maimed? how's that for spoiling the fun...


 
Oh ya, insurance will be impossible to get for him I am sure if some one gets any kind of deep cut. 

If some one gets killed or maimed, well most hospitals are requiered to report any knife wound that is not " I cut my finger with the kitchen knife" kinda thing. and a death or maiming will defenently get law enforcement and all kinds of things involved.  not a happy thing no matter how it ends up.


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## Em MacIntosh (May 28, 2007)

I think the biggest problem with knife defense in traditional karate, (or any other system I've seen first hand) is that they don't have the aggressor attacking with a knife properly.  Anyone who's half good with a knife won't let you know they've got it until it's in you.  You also have to wonder what constitutes successful defense against a knife attack.  Without a cut?  Good luck.  I'd feel successful if I had enough left in me to crawl to a hospital or call an ambulance.  Can you take the pain of the first stab and still fight back?  How about the next one?  My guess is that you'll keep fighting because you have no choice, but pain takes a lot of energy out of you once the adrenaline has done all it can.  First choice is always to run, second choice would be improvised weapons, third choice isn't somewhere I want to go and I hope I never found out.  A jacket is a good improvised weapon.  A belt can work too if you're quick.


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## chinto (Aug 21, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I think the biggest problem with knife defense in traditional karate, (or any other system I've seen first hand) is that they don't have the aggressor attacking with a knife properly. Anyone who's half good with a knife won't let you know they've got it until it's in you. You also have to wonder what constitutes successful defense against a knife attack. Without a cut? Good luck. I'd feel successful if I had enough left in me to crawl to a hospital or call an ambulance. Can you take the pain of the first stab and still fight back? How about the next one? My guess is that you'll keep fighting because you have no choice, but pain takes a lot of energy out of you once the adrenaline has done all it can. First choice is always to run, second choice would be improvised weapons, third choice isn't somewhere I want to go and I hope I never found out. A jacket is a good improvised weapon. A belt can work too if you're quick.


 

yep, that is true.. a good knife man will provably only let you know he has the blade as it goes into your body... at least that would tend ot be his or her real ambition in using it. after all if you dont know there is a knife till its in you.. how do you defend agenst it?.. but if you know there is a blade involved your chances of survival go up astronomicaly as aposed to ambush where you have no clue of the threat present.  I have had a cop tell me that good knife men love an ambush and hate a fight.


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