# Three Seeds of Wing Chun



## KPM (Dec 28, 2020)

Did anyone learn this concept in their lineage?  So far I have seen it in Ho Kam Ming/Augustine Fong lineage, Wong Shun Leung lineage, and Lee Shing lineage (maybe from Lok Yiu?).


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## hunschuld (Dec 28, 2020)

Directly CST and Yip Ching, indirectly Jiu Wan. Without consulting my notes I can't remember if Yip Chun taught it or Moy Yat. In Lo Kwai its taught as part of the elbow concept.

Nice clear direct explanation. You would be a good teacher


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## Marnetmar (Dec 28, 2020)

I think one clue is that tan and bong are somewhat mechanically opposite of each other, almost as if they were the same technique performed forwards and backwards in time (this would be literally true if you switched a regular tan out for a sinking tan or "tun sau"). The question then would be where fuk sau comes into the picture. Could one conceivably argue for it being an intermediate between the two?

In any case, all three are spiraling motions, so I think that is where you'd begin if you wanted to crack the riddle.


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## KPM (Dec 29, 2020)

Marnetmar said:


> I think one clue is that tan and bong are somewhat mechanically opposite of each other, almost as if they were the same technique performed forwards and backwards in time (this would be literally true if you switched a regular tan out for a sinking tan or "tun sau"). The question then would be where fuk sau comes into the picture. Could one conceivably argue for it being an intermediate between the two?
> 
> In any case, all three are spiraling motions, so I think that is where you'd begin if you wanted to crack the riddle.



Do you actually watch my video??


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## Callen (Dec 29, 2020)

We often talk about the "detachable hand" when referencing the idea of Fuk, reinforcing the concept that any tool (hand) can be re-attached (applied) to the same elbow principals that are consistently trained throughout the entire system. I'm impressed KPM, that's very WSLVT of you


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## geezer (Dec 29, 2020)

KPM said:


> Do you actually *watch my video??*



_I did._ And I found your analysis interesting. 
In the original branch of the Yip Man lineage I studied (WT), we also referred to _tan, bong and fook-sau_ as the "three seeds" of Wing Chun. But the concept wasn't pursued and dealt with in depth. We had other ways of viewing and understanding our techniques.

One important thing about that branch of WC is that _bong, tan and fook _all borrow your opponent's force.... i.e. you don't deliberately throw out a tan or bong, rather you throw out a strike. If you encounter superior force coming in from your opponent and crossing your bridge, then _their_ attack bends or compresses your arm into _tan, bong, fook,_ etc. 

According to this idea of using your opponent's energy to form and power your defense: 

_-Tan_ happens when your bridge intercepts energy coming wide of center. It receives and spreads the energy aside to the same side (or thumb-side) of the body. 

-_Bong_ happens when energy crosses your bridge, angling across your body and rolling your wrist over and bowing your arm into _bong-sau_ ...which guides the energy to the opposite side of the body.

_-Fook-sau, _also referred to as "bridge-on arm" or "controlling-hand", is more neutral as it can absorb and direct incoming force downward (jum or jut-sau) or re-direct it to either side. Your arm sinks into _jum_ to re-direct downward or across to the inside, or else scooping into an elbow-up _huen_ or_ kau-sau_ to re-direct the force to the outside.

We use all of the above together with turning and steps in _dan-chi_ and _poon-sau, _fleshing out these "seeds" into the myriad of techniques that make up the Wing Chun repertoire. And I've become especially focused on how you can apply this in dan-chi of late since injuring my left shoulder last year and becoming essentially a "one-armed swordsman" as my old sifu used to say. 

When I do use both arms, I must be super soft as any force whatsoever can cause considerable pain in my left shoulder which can last for days. But, at the very least, I am becoming much softer and more attuned to incoming energies since "powering through" is no longer an option.

On the other hand, the way _you _look at these "seeds" regarding _elbow position_ provides another dimension that I find useful. For example, in _dan-chi,_ from a _fook-sau_ position, when you receive a strong palm the typical response in my lineage is to neutralize it with converting _fook_ to _jum_ and absorbing the force by sinking the elbow to softly re-direct the incoming attack downward (we do _not_ snap the wrist downward with a sharp jut-sau as I have seen some members of the Augustine Fong branch do). 

However, if our partner steps in and attacks deeply with the force of his whole body, we_ use their force to turn our body_ and further deflect their attack across to the inside with our _jum_, or if our partner drives in with pressure to the outside to prevent or resist our turn, we convert our _fook_ to _huen/kau sau _and turn with his energy to the outside, guiding their incoming force wide of our body. ....Interestingly, this puts our arm in an _elbow-up position_ that you would place in the_ bong-sau_ family ...even though as "a controlling" movement, I would class it together with_ fook sau_.

So which understanding of these "seeds" is_ right?_ 

-Well, both are _wrong,_ especially if someone claims that their definition accounts for every situation and explains the whole WC system! Anyway, that's where my head's at these days. I'm much more interested in _exploring diverse ideas that actually advance my personal understanding _than building an absolute system of rules leading to another _WC dogma._ God knows we've had enough of those guys in WC ...and on this forum!

So, to sum up: Thanks for sharing your ideas. You've given me even more to think about and explore.


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## geezer (Dec 29, 2020)

Callen said:


> We often talk about the "detachable hand" when referencing the idea of Fuk, reinforcing the concept that any tool (hand) can be re-attached (applied) to the same elbow principals that are consistently trained throughout the entire system. I'm impressed KPM, that's very WSLVT of you



Detachable hands? Like this?


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## geezer (Dec 29, 2020)

Callen said:


> We often talk about the "detachable hand" when referencing the idea of Fuk, reinforcing the concept that any tool (hand) can be re-attached (applied) to the same elbow principals that are consistently trained throughout the entire system. I'm impressed KPM, that's very WSLVT of you



OK spoofing aside... I agree with your point. I don't think that's exclusive to WSL WC ...or even to WC in general. If you have proper structure, position and energy, etc. the "tool" at the end of your arm is interchangeable according to the situation.


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## geezer (Dec 29, 2020)

double post


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## wckf92 (Dec 29, 2020)

KPM said:


> Did anyone learn this concept in their lineage?  So far I have seen it in Ho Kam Ming/Augustine Fong lineage, Wong Shun Leung lineage, and Lee Shing lineage (maybe from Lok Yiu?).




To me and my way of thinking...when you attack (or defend) your basically attempting to Tan (wedge/spread) or Bong (tie up/jam) or Fook (subdue/control). Not any specific shape per se, just the idea behind the shapes.


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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)

has anyone here trained in the Leung Ting system?


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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)

asking because i am a Brit living in Germany & it´s what most do here. EWTO


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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)

most people worry about the roots or is this the real yip man wing chun/ Ving tsun / Wing tsun....etc   more important is does it work?


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## KPM (Dec 29, 2020)

geezer said:


> _I_
> 
> -Well, both are _wrong,_ especially if someone claims that their definition accounts for every situation and explains the whole WC system!



True!  I recognize that analogies like this will only take you so far and all break down at some point.  But after thinking about it for awhile now, what I came up with seems the most internally consistent....at least to me!


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## KPM (Dec 29, 2020)

has anyone here trained in the Leung Ting system

--See geezer's post #6 above.


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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)

KPM said:


> has anyone here trained in the Leung Ting system
> 
> --See geezer's post #6 above.


thank you i will..good to see some active people on here.


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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)

KPM said:


> has anyone here trained in the Leung Ting system
> 
> --See geezer's post #6 above.


then maybe he remembers Emin. i trained with him in the 90s.


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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)




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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)




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## yak sao (Dec 29, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> has anyone here trained in the Leung Ting system?


Yep...going on 26 years.


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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)

yak sao said:


> Yep...going on 26 years.


who did you train with?


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## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)

like a boxer foot work is important


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## geezer (Dec 29, 2020)

Hey Stanley! Great to have you on the forum.

Yeah, my WT sifu from 1980 through the early 90s was Leung Ting and my Escrima instructor was Rene Latosa. I was an instructor for both in the Phoenix area. I then dropped out of the martial arts for a long time to pursue my career and raise a family. I returned to training Wing Tsun/Wing Chun and Escrima around 2007 with my kung fu brothers, one of whom also trained with the EWTO and received his 5th level "practician/masters" rank jointly presented to him in Hong Kong by both GGM Leung Ting and GM Keith Kernspecht. However, like so many others, he eventually became "a rebel".

I, on the other hand, am no one special. I learned that _very quickly_ the first time I met Emin back in the late 80s. But I do have an acquaintance with the WT system, both as it was taught here in the States, and also as presented in the EWTO. The EWTO curriculum that I have seen was very thorough and the standard of their instructors was quite high IMO. And as for Emin.... the guy is phenomenal.


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## yak sao (Dec 29, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> who did you train with?



Emin was my si-fu, and also trained with my si-bok Allan Fong.


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## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

geezer said:


> Hey Stanley! Great to have you on the forum.
> 
> Yeah, my WT sifu from 1980 through the early 90s was Leung Ting and my Escrima instructor was Rene Latosa. I was an instructor for both in the Phoenix area. I then dropped out of the martial arts for a long time to pursue my career and raise a family. I returned to training Wing Tsun/Wing Chun and Escrima around 2007 with my kung fu brothers, one of whom also trained with the EWTO and received his 5th level "practician/masters" rank jointly presented to him in Hong Kong by both GGM Leung Ting and GM Keith Kernspecht. However, like so many others, he eventually became "a rebel".
> 
> I, on the other hand, am no one special. I learned that _very quickly_ the first time I met Emin back in the late 80s. But I do have an acquaintance with the WT system, both as it was taught here in the States, and also as presented in the EWTO. The EWTO curriculum that I have seen was very thorough and the standard of their instructors was quite high IMO. And as for Emin.... the guy is phenomenal.


yes a lot of Kernsprechts students went & formed their own organisations here in Germany. This guy has schools in my area. Thanks for the welcome.


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## geezer (Dec 30, 2020)

Ja, I'm glad to see that the EWTO guys are integrating more bodenkampf into their kampfkunst. Unfortunately, I don't speak a word of German so I don't know what the heck I'm trying to say!!! 

As for myself, I always thought WT training needed more authentic groundwork in the early days. Now that they are moving in that direction, it's too late for me. I wrestled with some success as a kid, but now at 65 with back issues and a seriously messed up shoulder, a grappler just needs to give me a mean look to make me tap out. 

I had plans to start BJJ but first Covid, then injuries pretty much put an end to my dreams of ever grappling again. Maybe a good thing. I might have just hurt myself worse. Who knows?


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## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

geezer said:


> Ja, I'm glad to see that the EWTO guys are integrating more bodenkampf into their kampfkunst. Unfortunately, I don't speak a word of German so I don't know what the heck I'm trying to say!!!
> 
> As for myself, I always thought WT training needed more authentic groundwork in the early days. Now that they are moving in that direction, it's too late for me. I wrestled with some success as a kid, but now at 65 with back issues and a seriously messed up shoulder, a grappler just needs to give me a mean look to make me tap out.
> 
> I had plans to start BJJ but first Covid, then injuries pretty much put an end to my dreams of ever grappling again. Maybe a good thing. I might have just hurt myself worse. Who knows?


I am from Scotland but live in Germany. The Students mainly from Keith R Kernsprecht are forming their own styles or interpretations of WT such as Turkish wrestling in their system. Indeed Keith kernsprecht learned from Leung Ting who also changed the system of "Yip Man" wing chun. kernsprecht is also now using a system such as "Blitz Defence" a joke but it´s all about money making.


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> yes a lot of Kernsprechts students went & formed their own organisations here in Germany. This guy has schools in my area. Thanks for the welcome.



That's...... interesting.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2020)

geezer said:


> at 65 with back issues and a seriously messed up shoulder, a grappler just needs to give me a mean look to make me tap out.


The "body squeeze" can be integrated very easily with the WC striking skill. It's also easy on the back and shoulder.


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


>



So quick question..... Are there any chokes in that system?


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## stanly stud (Dec 31, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> So quick question..... Are there any chokes in that system?


I have never trained with him so not sure. would need to ask a guy i know who trains in this school of wing Tsun. as far as i know they do


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## Svarog (Jan 6, 2021)

In the style I am practicing there 'snake" and "crane" techniques when we talk about nature of the movements and force .


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## APL76 (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "body squeeze" can be integrated very easily with the WC striking skill. It's also easy on the back and shoulder.


Something to this effect is already there


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## wckf92 (Jan 7, 2021)

APL76 said:


> Something to this effect is already there



Yep!


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