# Does this happen in this day and age?



## Sylo (Dec 14, 2008)

I'm not sure this is even real. But I found it the other day surfing for black belt testing videos.

I thought maybe you guys could help me analyze it, to see if this ever happens or is even legt. What art is it?





*Mod Note: Content Warning - Language*


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## Twin Fist (Dec 14, 2008)

well, itis a japanese karate style, i can tell that, dont recognize the kata or the patches tho

but, sylo, it didnt look all that out of bounds for a black belt test. In our school, you fight till you pass out. if that is 15 or 30 fights, so be it. The lack of gear is odd, but thats common in japanese dojo. Same with the low kicks to the legs. In some japanese schools that normal.

what struck you as being so unbelievable?


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> well, itis a japanese karate style, i can tell that, dont recognize the kata or the patches tho
> 
> but, sylo, it didnt look all that out of bounds for a black belt test.


 
I don't recognise the style either but it looks like normal semi contact sparring to me, as TF says about right for a BB grading.


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## Sylo (Dec 14, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> well, itis a japanese karate style, i can tell that, dont recognize the kata or the patches tho
> 
> but, sylo, it didnt look all that out of bounds for a black belt test. In our school, you fight till you pass out. if that is 15 or 30 fights, so be it. The lack of gear is odd, but thats common in japanese dojo. Same with the low kicks to the legs. In some japanese schools that normal.
> 
> what struck you as being so unbelievable?


 
I guess I'm just not used to seeing people "fight".

It looked full contact to me. The guy could barely even stand at the end. Several of them left with bloody noses. The punches to the face are what kind of weirded me out. To me its easier to block/withstand a kick than it is a direct punch to the face. The fact that they used no safety equipment was also kind of alarming.  I guess, I'm not old school enough. I just didn't know schools still beat each other to a pulp.


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## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2008)

Going through the comments, the guy who posted the video says it's Shito-ryu.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I guess I'm just not used to seeing people "fight".
> 
> It looked full contact to me. The guy could barely even stand at the end. Several of them left with bloody noses. The punches to the face are what kind of weirded me out. To me its easier to block/withstand a kick than it is a direct punch to the face. The fact that they used no safety equipment was also kind of alarming. I guess, I'm not old school enough. I just didn't know schools still beat each other to a pulp.


 

If it had been full contact they would have KOd each other! They were hardly beating each other to a pulp lol, it was just sparring. They would have had the only safety equipment they needed , a gum shield and a groin guard.

Punches to the face are obviously better avoided but can't be all the time, it's good to know that you can take a punch if necessary, what do you think will happen in a street fight/attack if you aren't used to fighting?

The bottom line in martial arts is fighting however you want to dress it up with philosophy or other high minded talk. It's fine to say that it's character forming, the way of peace etc etc but of what use is any of this if you can't fight?


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## Sylo (Dec 14, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> If it had been full contact they would have KOd each other! They were hardly beating each other to a pulp lol, it was just sparring. They would have had the only safety equipment they needed , a gum shield and a groin guard.
> 
> Punches to the face are obviously better avoided but can't be all the time, it's good to know that you can take a punch if necessary, what do you think will happen in a street fight/attack if you aren't used to fighting?
> 
> The bottom line in martial arts is fighting however you want to dress it up with philosophy or other high minded talk. It's fine to say that it's character forming, the way of peace etc etc but of what use is any of this if you can't fight?


 

Now that I am watching it again. I agree.

It seems more brutal, because they allow more striking area. Like the leg kicks they were doing, and the takedowns. We spar about this hard, but with pads.. but we are not allowed to punch to the face. We can kick to the head, but no direct face contact. I don't think learning to take a punch to the face is something that I need to "Train". There is this thing called adrenaline, that will kick in. I've been bashed in the leg with a baseball bat at full force and got up and kept going. Some people will react differently, but I'm not sure you could teach someone to "take a punch". Maybe you can. My motto is, don't get hit. I know this is not ever 100% possible. But I train to elevate the odds that I won't get hit. My main issue with what they were doing.. is injury. What good am I going to be on the street when the night before my fellow student cracked my shinbone in class? I just think there should be a line drawn as to how heavy you go with it. I have to get up and go to work the next day.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Dec 14, 2008)

I recognized the kata Seiunchin in there, and up until the sparring it looked a lot like the black belt test in my dojo back in Illinois, with full-speed, full-force attackers that you have to demonstrate bunkai on.  Our test doesn't include the sparring, but the promotion ceremony does.  It's definitely not hard to believe that this happens on some traditional or hardcore dojo.  I am a little concerned about the fact that the person going up for his black belt had to fight lower ranks--as I recall, if you are fighting to earn your black belt, shouldn't you be fighting people your rank and higher?  Oh well, though, I'm not the sensei


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

Brutal? I disagree, it's sparring. They won't have injured each other, we don't other than a bloody nose now and again. They weren't fighting hard enough to seriously hurt each other. That's what we call semi contact, full contact is much harder.
Being punched in the face is different from being hit anywhere else and I wouldn't bank on adrenaline kicking in. I didn't say you needed to train it, I said it was useful to know that you could take it if necessary. You can train all you like to avoid getting hit but when push comes to shove, you will be hit I promise you. 

It's one of the things I despair of that when there are people who spar properly others think it's brutal and we should all be 'touch' or points sparring. I understand that people can be put off martial arts by this but what good is just being able to 'touch' your opponent going to do?


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## elder999 (Dec 14, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Brutal? I disagree, it's sparring.


 
Yeah. Compared to a kyokushin test from 30 years ago, and most sparring today, that was fairly mild, except for the fact that I think he fought everyone there at least once-that'll test you a little, and a test is, after all, supposed to be a *test*. :lol:


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

Anyone done the 10 man kumite? or even 100 man!


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## elder999 (Dec 14, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Anyone done the 10 man kumite? or even 100 man!


 
More like the 50 man _"just keep standing,"_ than kumite......ah, youth. :lol:


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## Sylo (Dec 14, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Brutal? I disagree, it's sparring. They won't have injured each other, we don't other than a bloody nose now and again. They weren't fighting hard enough to seriously hurt each other. That's what we call semi contact, full contact is much harder.
> Being punched in the face is different from being hit anywhere else and I wouldn't bank on adrenaline kicking in. I didn't say you needed to train it, I said it was useful to know that you could take it if necessary. You can train all you like to avoid getting hit but when push comes to shove, you will be hit I promise you.
> 
> It's one of the things I despair of that when there are people who spar properly others think it's brutal and we should all be 'touch' or points sparring. I understand that people can be put off martial arts by this but what good is just being able to 'touch' your opponent going to do?


 

I just want to make it clear, that I don't agree with "touch" sparring.
My school doesn't do it. If I kick you, you will feel it and it will probably hurt.. pads or not. But, we also have guidelines to avoid injuries. Now from the video here different eyes will see different things. I can't really tell exactly how hard those kicks are. But I do know that by the end of it the tester can barely even stand up, and is limping pretty badly. Now, maybe he isn't injured. In that sense, its all well and fine. I leave class on occasion with a bruised shin or leg or something. I've gotten my fair share of bloody noses as well. I don't agree with tappity tap. I'm just saying that I don't need to be leaving class with broken or severely bruised bones. Thats hurting more than its helping. I agree that will only truly learn something by being put in that situation. But doctors don't learn to do surgery on folks, by cutting on people without health problems. This video is not that bad, after watching it a few times. The face punching is really the only thing questionable about it.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I just want to make it clear, that I don't agree with "touch" sparring.
> My school doesn't do it. If I kick you, you will feel it and it will probably hurt.. pads or not. But, we also have guidelines to avoid injuries. Now from the video here different eyes will see different things. I can't really tell exactly how hard those kicks are. But I do know that by the end of it the tester can barely even stand up, and is limping pretty badly. Now, maybe he isn't injured. In that sense, its all well and fine. I leave class on occasion with a bruised shin or leg or something. I've gotten my fair share of bloody noses as well. I don't agree with tappity tap. I'm just saying that I don't need to be leaving class with broken or severely bruised bones. Thats hurting more than its helping. I agree that will only truly learn something by being put in that situation. But doctors don't learn to do surgery on folks, by cutting on people without health problems. This video is not that bad, after watching it a few times. The face punching is really the only thing questionable about it.


 

Bear in mind that this is a video of a grading not an everyday training class, as elder said, it's meant to be testing!


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 14, 2008)

I didn't see anything wrong with the testing.

I think it is a great way to learn experience for fighting in a controled setting.

Some may get the impression that its hard or ugly but so is fighting on the street.

If you do not train in a realastic manner,pressure testing then you are practicing dead form.

I have gone all out like that before I bled but in the long run I felt better prepared for a fight then if I just practice Kata in a mirror.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

Why is punching to the face questionable? It seems perfectly reasonable to me, why wouldn't you? What are the basic punches for if not hitting in the face?


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## Cryozombie (Dec 14, 2008)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> I am a little concerned about the fact that the person going up for his black belt had to fight lower ranks--as I recall, if you are fighting to earn your black belt, shouldn't you be fighting people your rank and higher? Oh well, though, I'm not the sensei


 
I'd say not always.  Different people attack different ways, and I think its good to fight people of all ranks.  Not just people who are better than you.   I think IF I were an instructor, I would want to see how a person reacts to many types of attacks and skill levels, not just watch them get beat down by someone with more experience.  I actually think that you put your students at a disadvantage by making them "win" against someone higher ranked.  If they don't, I'd say its a measure of their ability (on bot sides) and if they do, it MIGHT be dumb luck and no indicator of their skill.  And IMHO, if a 1st dan can kick the crap out of 2nd or 3rd Dans, maybe the 1st should be 2nd or 3rd, and the 2nd or 3rds should bounce back to first. Eh?


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 14, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> If it had been full contact they would have KOd each other! They were hardly beating each other to a pulp lol, it was just sparring. They would have had the only safety equipment they needed , a gum shield and a groin guard.
> 
> Punches to the face are obviously better avoided but can't be all the time, it's good to know that you can take a punch if necessary, what do you think will happen in a street fight/attack if you aren't used to fighting?
> 
> The bottom line in martial arts is fighting however you want to dress it up with philosophy or other high minded talk. It's fine to say that it's character forming, the way of peace etc etc but of what use is any of this if you can't fight?



That's my take on it. Would be interesting to see the whole test to see what else he had to do. We only saw one kata, I believe. But black kumite in a grading should be intense. There is this element of  breaking the candidate down and seeing what s/he has under the stress of this event. 

I was surprised that they we're wearing pads, but that's what they signed on for.


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## myusername (Dec 14, 2008)

Looks pretty good to me. There is a Goju Ryu Karate Organisation that has classes in London and Bristol that incorporate a 30 man kumite as part of their shodan testing! I can imagine it looking pretty similar. Tez you probably know of this organisation as I remember you have mentioned being a fan of Neil Groves from UK MMA in previous posts. Neil Grove is mentioned in the DKK fighters section of the first link and the 30 man kumite is mentioned in the Yudansha1 section.

http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/

http://www.combat-karate.co.uk/


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

myusername said:


> Looks pretty good to me. There is a Goju Ryu Karate Organisation that has classes in London and Bristol that incorporate a 30 man kumite as part of their shodan testing! I can imagine it looking pretty similar. _Tez you probably know of this organisation as I remember you have mentioned being a fan of Neil Groves from UK MMA in previous posts. Neil Grove is mentioned in the DKK fighters section_ of the first link and the 30 man kumite is mentioned in the Yudansha1 section.
> 
> http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/
> 
> http://www.combat-karate.co.uk/


 

Certainly do know of them, Gavin Mulholland posts up on the Iain Abernethy site and I've read some of his articles in both MAI and Trad Karate, I've never met them (needless to say my instructor has, he just seems to get everywhere to train with people) they have a very good reputation.
Rumour control has it that Neil has been signed on a 3 fight deal with UFC.

Certainly this isn't sparring for the McDojos ( subject of the month on mT I think lol) but I think it's what a lot of us are doing. There are surprising few injuries I think because people though sparring hard are sparring with control.


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## Brian King (Dec 14, 2008)

Sylo a warning would have been nice. Something like
***WARNING FOUL LANGAUAGE*** Video not safe for work or appropriate for children. 

Regards
Brian King


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

Brian said:


> Sylo a warning would have been nice. Something like
> ***WARNING FOUL LANGAUAGE*** Video not safe for work or appropriate for children.
> 
> Regards
> Brian King


 
You understood the words? More than I did lol, but yes I did suspect the words were probably not the nicest and a warning should have been posted.


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## donna (Dec 14, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Anyone done the 10 man kumite? or even 100 man!


The style I was training in has the 100 man kumite as part of the second dan test. To qualify to take the test you usually have to have had your first dan for a min of six years.


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## Sylo (Dec 14, 2008)

Brian said:


> Sylo a warning would have been nice. Something like
> ***WARNING FOUL LANGAUAGE*** Video not safe for work or appropriate for children.
> 
> Regards
> Brian King



I'm sorry. I was actually watching this from work (no speakers) so I didn't actually hear the audio. And actually its not something I would have expected to hear in the first place. 

Had I known about it I would have issued the warning.

On the subject at hand though.

My issue with this is.

In every altercation I have ever been in. It lasted all of a few seconds at best. This isn't teaching me anything at all. I have always been taught to strike hard and fast. I don't want my opponent getting back up. In a real fight, its for keeps its not to dance around each other for 3 minute rounds. I'm not saying you guys are wrong. I'm just saying that even THIS type of sparring is nothing close to how a real "street" fight would be. Its spur of the moment, stuff. Almost every fight I have ever been in lasted just seconds. I'm not giving my opponent time to do anything. Now, it would be different if the idea of this was to completely subue the attackers.. but realistically how would that work? 

I don't think anyone would sign up for classes knowing that at the end of the term they will have to beat people to a bloody pulp before they are given a black belt. I agree that this is not even close to being that. But, its alot more rough than anything I see around here. And those schools aren't all mcdojos. I've taken my fair share of punches to the face and other places without ever having taken a single martial arts lesson. 

I'm not saying that I'm against harder testing, with full or close to full contact. Because I've done some of that myself. I'm just saying, that its 2008.. almost 2009 and even if it was a test... I don't think I should have to beat the living crap out of someone else to prove I know what I am doing. The fact that I shouldn't have to should prove that. 

As long as its controlled so there are no serious injuries then I'm fine with harder contact. You can't know what to do if you get hit, if you never feel it right?

I just don't follow the "you need to beat the crud out of 10 people in a row" to prove you deserve your belt. I seriously doubt I will ever have the pleasure of having 10 people hate me enough to have to fight all of them 1 after the other. And I'm positive they wouldn't fight me 1 by 1.. lol

To me its just as unrealistic as UFC. Its just another way to set things up by rules. Noone will ever know what a "Real" fight consists of until they are in one. Martial arts should give you the edge, but will never be able to 100% show you exactly what to do.. because it just isn't the same thing. I don't care how hard you spar, its still staged.

But to each his own. Different strokes for different folks.


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## The Kai (Dec 14, 2008)

Odd - using your skill in karate to hit people


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## Blindside (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> To me its just as unrealistic as UFC. Its just another way to set things up by rules. Noone will ever know what a "Real" fight consists of until they are in one. Martial arts should give you the edge, but will never be able to 100% show you exactly what to do.. because it just isn't the same thing. I don't care how hard you spar, its still staged.
> 
> But to each his own. Different strokes for different folks.



Yes it is unrealistic, but its a test, what do you think is being tested here?


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Blindside said:


> Yes it is unrealistic, but its a test, what do you think is being tested here?



I'll let my instructor decide that.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I'm sorry. I was actually watching this from work (no speakers) so I didn't actually hear the audio. And actually its not something I would have expected to hear in the first place.
> 
> Had I known about it I would have issued the warning.
> 
> ...


 
Well if thats your idea of beating the living whatsit out of someone I don't think you've actually seen many fights, you probably don't mean to but you are coming over as sounding patronising and superior.
In this day and age, yes people are still training as training has always been done,traditionally. It's the way of the warrior. Warriors fight.
The fighting done in the UFC is a sport please don't compare it to street fighting, it takes skill to fight in MMA. Any idiot can brawl in the street and does.
In the Parachute Regiment here part of their training is milling, it's recruit fighting recruit under the eye of the instructors. It may be seen as barbaric _in this day and age_ but it teaches valuable lessons. This was taken a while back and some of these young men were killed in Afghanistan recently. 
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Incidentally the instructor reffing this is one of our pro MMA fighters and instructors.

As Blindside says you have to think what is being learned by sparring in this grading.


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## seasoned (Dec 15, 2008)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> I recognized the kata Seiunchin in there, and up until the sparring it looked a lot like the black belt test in my dojo back in Illinois, with full-speed, full-force attackers that you have to demonstrate bunkai on. Our test doesn't include the sparring, but the promotion ceremony does. It's definitely not hard to believe that this happens on some traditional or hardcore dojo. I am a little concerned about the fact that the person going up for his black belt had to fight lower ranks--as I recall, if you are fighting to earn your black belt, shouldn't you be fighting people your rank and higher? Oh well, though, I'm not the sensei


 
It is a BB test so if you are asked to show up, or do, on your own, it is assumed you can take it. The only way to test for BB is to have been sparring like this, up through the ranks. Generally the lower belts are to get you tired and the higher belts bring on the abuse. White Gis define a traditional style, Goju Ryu Karate possibly.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Well if thats your idea of beating the living whatsit out of someone I don't think you've actually seen many fights, you probably don't mean to but you are coming over as sounding patronising and superior.
> In this day and age, yes people are still training as training has always been done,traditionally. It's the way of the warrior. Warriors fight.
> The fighting done in the UFC is a sport please don't compare it to street fighting, it takes skill to fight in MMA. Any idiot can brawl in the street and does.
> In the Parachute Regiment here part of their training is milling, it's recruit fighting recruit under the eye of the instructors. It may be seen as barbaric _in this day and age_ but it teaches valuable lessons. This was taken a while back and some of these young men were killed in Afghanistan recently.
> ...


 

I'm not trying to sound superior. I don't feel thats an issue. I don't see what this teaches, and you guys do. There is nothing wrong with that. Its just a difference of opinion. To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time. I don't see a problem in this video. I don't think its realistic, but nothing is. I just don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" way to test. Its up to my instructor to determine what is acceptible.. not me. If he wants me to play fist acuffs with 10 people 1 by 1.. then thats what I will do. This guy can fight 10 guys in a row and still be standing at the end. Thats what this video teaches me. He can hold his own, in a far fetched scenario that will never happen in a million years. Lets see him take on all 10 at the same time. To me its kinda like the "breaking is pointless" argument. If you want to get technical.. it can all be considered pointless to a degree. I applaud those who still go to this length to have full contact sparring matches at their BB tests. You guys are keeping the tradition alive. No disrespect meant and I hope none was taken.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I'm not trying to sound superior. I don't feel thats an issue. I don't see what this teaches, and you guys do. There is nothing wrong with that. Its just a difference of opinion. To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time. I don't see a problem in this video. I don't think its realistic, but nothing is. I just don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" way to test. Its up to my instructor to determine what is acceptible.. not me. If he wants me to play fist acuffs with 10 people 1 by 1.. then thats what I will do. This guy can fight 10 guys in a row and still be standing at the end. Thats what this video teaches me. He can hold his own, in a far fetched scenario that will never happen in a million years. Lets see him take on all 10 at the same time. To me its kinda like the "breaking is pointless" argument. If you want to get technical.. it can all be considered pointless to a degree. I applaud those who still go to this length to have full contact sparring matches at their BB tests. You guys are keeping the tradition alive. No disrespect meant and I hope none was taken.


 

I don't think it's teaching how to fight in the street, that will be done in class. What I believe it's teaching and testing is more esoteric, it's testing whether he has heart, whether he has confidence, that he doesn't panic, doesn't sit and cry because he's been hit. It tests the saying if you like 'knocked down 8 times, got up 9'. It's looking to see if he has it inside him to carry on long after he's tired and wants to give up and sit down. it's testing character.

By the point he gets to grading they will know he whether he has the skills to defend himself and he has the techniques, now they want to see if he has 'heart'.

You are looking at it merely as a physical training exercise, *it's not* it's a _*very big mental test*_. The by products of sparring of course are as we said, knowing you can take a punch *if *neccessary, being able to hit etc. This of course is what the class works for, this grading is to test his mettle.

There are some clubs that will have multiple attackers not just one on one.


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## The Kai (Dec 15, 2008)

It is not testing a actual fight situation, but his spirit


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

The Kai said:


> It is not testing a actual fight situation, but his spirit


 
You managed to get what I was meaning into one sentence! Exactly right to my mind.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> You managed to get what I was meaning into one sentence! Exactly right to my mind.


 
You should have just said that in the first place!

That guy does have heart.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> You should have just said that in the first place!
> 
> That guy does have heart.


 
We did keep hinting lol! We wanted you to take it at more than face value, besides you sounded so shocked that people should actually be hitting each other!! 

I think too that you should remember as old fashioned as it seems a lot of us enjoy fighting ( I know, shock, horror lol) it's fun, honestly! it's one of the reasons people enjoy doing MMA, not for SD but for the joy of combat.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

I'm going to take a slightly different approach to this video and say that his sparring technique was pretty sloppy.

I understand that in this type of testing, he's testing more than just his technique...he's testing to see how much intestinal fortitude he's got, and, much as a real fight will look like, good technique isn't always there.

That being said, I don't really understand the point of sparring the way that they were, either...like sylo was saying, we spar that hard, but we have pads, and we don't punch to the face.  And even if we did punch to the face, we wouldn't try to kill eachother doing it.  

What I'm referring to about the technique being sloppy is that from the first fight to the last, they all looked more like a brawl than a potential blackbelt fighting.  I don't expect any fight to look like they do in the movies, but I do expect a potential blackbelt to handle a fight better than throwing wild punches that sometimes land.  

The benefit that I can see to sparring in that way is that it does give the person testing a gut-check.  I agree that in order for someone to earn a blackbelt, they have to work just as hard as he did in that video, just not in the same way.

Basically, I can see both sides of the argument on this one...I like to spar hard, and I like the feeling of hitting and getting hit.  But I don't think an accurate way of testing someone for a blackbelt is to put them in a room and tell them to try to injur their opponent.  I may have been taught differently than most, but *I'm not fighting to hurt the other person, I'm fighting to keep them from hurting me*.  And that's not what I saw in the video.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> We did keep hinting lol! We wanted you to take it at more than face value, besides you sounded so shocked that people should actually be hitting each other!!
> 
> I think too that you should remember as old fashioned as it seems a lot of us enjoy fighting ( I know, shock, horror lol) it's fun, honestly! it's one of the reasons people enjoy doing MMA, not for SD but for the joy of combat.


 

I think people should be getting hit, and doing the hitting. I don't think it should be injury inducing to the point where I need to see a doctor. What good is a banged up soldier? Should a marksman have to see how many bullets he can dodge to prove he can shoot a rifle? Thats my point. This guy can obviously take a lick and keep on ticking. I'm sure many of us here can do the same, myself included. We don't pansy spar at our school. I have been hurt, and have hurt others plenty of times. I do not like the feeling of hurting or injuring my fellow students. We aren't learning anything that way. I like brandon's point about *I'm not fighting to hurt the other person, I'm fighting to keep them from hurting me. *Thats where I was trying to go with it. My ability to hurt another person is not what I should be tested on. I can hurt someone right now, no black belt needed.


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## myusername (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I'm not trying to sound superior. I don't feel thats an issue. I don't see what this teaches, and you guys do. There is nothing wrong with that. Its just a difference of opinion. To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time. I don't see a problem in this video. I don't think its realistic, but nothing is. I just don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" way to test. Its up to my instructor to determine what is acceptible.. not me. If he wants me to play fist acuffs with 10 people 1 by 1.. then thats what I will do. This guy can fight 10 guys in a row and still be standing at the end. Thats what this video teaches me. He can hold his own, in a far fetched scenario that will never happen in a million years. Lets see him take on all 10 at the same time. To me its kinda like the "breaking is pointless" argument. If you want to get technical.. it can all be considered pointless to a degree. I applaud those who still go to this length to have full contact sparring matches at their BB tests. You guys are keeping the tradition alive. No disrespect meant and I hope none was taken.



I think people are making very valid points about this being a test and more a test of spirit and heart than anything else. But I would still argue and maintain that this type of sparring and experience does teach something. At the end of the day it is pressure testing. Look at how crisp and perfect his techniques are when he is doing his katas and bunkai. Then look at what happens when he meets a fully resistant opponent. There is a hell of a lot of grabbing and tusselling. The instructors need to see how the student adapts his technique and training to a little bit of chaos. The guy did so well, there was no showboating or posturing he just got down to business and you could see the level of the mans skill when he managed to fly out a kick from nowhere whilst under pressure and the dynamics of his punches when he was using the non punching arm to pull the opponent on to his punch. I imagine that the man is able to do this because he has been taught how to do this. This type of full on traditional sparring teaches people how to use their techniques under pressure.

In your post you use the example of car manufacturing



Sylo said:


> To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time.



Well I would argue that a great deal of pressure testing goes into making cars safer. Have you seen the crash test dummies been driven at full speed into a wall? It is a way of pressure testing the car's impact bars, seatbelts, airbag etc. I would not want to get into a car that the manufacturers had not used pressure testing at some stage in the design phase.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I'm going to take a slightly different approach to this video and say that his sparring technique was pretty sloppy.
> 
> I understand that in this type of testing, he's testing more than just his technique...he's testing to see how much intestinal fortitude he's got, and, much as a real fight will look like, good technique isn't always there.
> 
> ...


 

The technique is a good point and worth discussing. they did look as if they were brawling at one point but a good comment was made at the bottom of the video where they said when you are completely knackered techniques go out the window! I don't think we saw the whole grading to take into account how tired he was, my black belt grading took hours and I had to spar like that at the end of it, when I was exhausted and I'm sure my techniques were totally sloppy. You run on instinct and if someone is tryng to hurt you damn right you hurt them back. You need that little voice inside you when it looks like you are on your last legs and can't go on saying dammit get up and hurt that SOB! Not nice, but can you honestly say that if someone is trying to hurt you or yours in anger that you could treat it as a training exercise and not try to hurt them back?  

We spar without using headguards and using 4oz MMA gloves. Headguards give you a false sense of security, they do take the edge of a strike but to be effective they should be wrapped around the brain itself not the outside skull. The brain will still rebound off the skull causing brusing/bleeding even with a headguard on. Boxers spar with headguards but it doesn't stop damage. Punching with barehands is safer than using pads, you can only hit so hard with bare hands, with gloves or pads you can hit much harder and cause much more damage to your opponent. The damge with bare fists is limited. Bare knuckle boxing has always been less damaging than with hands bound in hard tape then with big gloves on, there's no hand pain to limit the punch. 

I don't think they were going full out though it probably looks like that on video. It seemed only to be 60/70%. It's hard to judge on a few minutes of a grading but I wouldn't say that sparring was out to hammer people.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

myusername said:


> I think people are making very valid points about this being a test and more a test of spirit and heart than anything else. But I would still argue and maintain that this type of sparring and experience does teach something. At the end of the day it is pressure testing. Look at how crisp and perfect his techniques are when he is doing his katas and bunkai. Then look at what happens when he meets a fully resistant opponent. There is a hell of a lot of grabbing and tusselling. The instructors need to see how the student adapts his technique and training to a little bit of chaos. The guy did so well, there was no showboating or posturing he just got down to business and you could see the level of the mans skill when he managed to fly out a kick from nowhere whilst under pressure and the dynamics of his punches when he was using the non punching arm to pull the opponent on to his punch. I imagine that the man is able to do this because he has been taught how to do this. This type of full on traditional sparring teaches people how to use their techniques under pressure.
> 
> In your post you use the example of car manufacturing
> 
> ...


 

That was my point. they are dummies.. not human beings.

I'm not fighting someone with the intentions of injuring or hurting them unless my life is at stake.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

myusername said:


> I think people are making very valid points about this being a test and more a test of spirit and heart than anything else. But I would still argue and maintain that this type of sparring and experience does teach something. At the end of the day it is pressure testing. Look at how crisp and perfect his techniques are when he is doing his katas and bunkai. Then look at what happens when he meets a fully resistant opponent. There is a hell of a lot of grabbing and tusselling. The instructors need to see how the student adapts his technique and training to a little bit of chaos. The guy did so well, there was no showboating or posturing he just got down to business and you could see the level of the mans skill when he managed to fly out a kick from nowhere whilst under pressure and the dynamics of his punches when he was using the non punching arm to pull the opponent on to his punch. I imagine that the man is able to do this because he has been taught how to do this. This type of full on traditional sparring teaches people how to use their techniques under pressure.
> 
> In your post you use the example of car manufacturing
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely spot on!! many people have the idea their perfectly honed techniques are going to work on the street and their fight will look as pristine as a Jet Li film fight, it doesn't work that way though. Fights look untidy. People tussle and brawl even the best MA will, the trick as this guy showed is to be able to pull off your techniques regardless.


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## myusername (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> That was my point. they are dummies.. not human beings



I'm sorry but I honestly can not see how this can be the same point...



Sylo said:


> To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time



I may have read it wrong but I'm seeing your point as being, the guy designing safety features for a car does not need to have been in a car crash to do that job? And you are comparing this to the video to make the argument that the karate student does not need to be in an actual fight to be able to fight? Am I right? 

If I am right then the point I was trying to make in answer, but may not have been very clear, is that using your same analogy, the designer of the car may not need to be in an actual car crash to do his job but he should certainly pressure test his design under conditions as close to an actual car crash as he can to ensure that it works. Otherwise it is all just theory. Just as the Karate student needs to pressure test his technique under fully resistant conditions to ensure that they work. Otherwise it is all just theory. The sparring in that video is pressure testing.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

myusername said:


> I'm sorry but I honestly can not see how this can be the same point...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'm still firm on my stand that I will not fight someone with the intent on injuring them, unless my life is at stake and I have every intention of ending theres. I am taught to end the fight, not to see how long I can last. This video proves nothing for me. I can get just as exhausted running around in circles for 3 hrs. If they want to test this guy. bring in a street punk and tell him to put him out of commission and time how long it takes him to do so.

I really do understand what you guys are saying. I just don't see the need for it in the year 2009. There are plenty of ways to come to the same result as what this guy did, without him having a cracked shin the next day.

We have just been taught that if we fight, its to kill. I don't see doing it any other way.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

In regards to technique...

I completely agree that your technique is going to suck if you've given all you've got before you get to the sparring aspect...that's the point when you have to dig down deep, and that's how you find out how much heart you have.

And I think you may be right, Tez, that we're not seeing the full test to be able to see exactly why his fights looked the way they did.

But, my point is that he still had enough energy to throw haymakers and try to connect right hand powerpunches aimed at the jaw numerous times throughout most fights...it seemed more like he was an average guy in a bar fight than a trained blackbelt trying to end the fight quickly.  Now, there were some times that looked like he was doing pretty well...he seemed in control at certain points...but he didn't appear to be in control throughout the fights.  

To me, that's the name of the game.  If you can control the direction of the fight, then you've already won.  He didn't seem to be doing that...rather, he seemed at times to be fighting from desperation...and I understand that was from being exhausted.

I don't know...I mean, when I sparred for my 1st dan testing, I sparred 2 guys that were bigger than me seperately for 3 minutes rounds, and then I sparred 2 guys that were the same size as me at the same time for 3 minutes...and they were all the same rank or higher...and we at least wore headgear and mouthguards.  And we sparred hard...at least as hard as they were sparring on that video.  I was plenty tired by the time we were through, but when we sparred, it didn't look like that video did...granted, we weren't trying to simulate fighting, either.

And something else...I'm at work, and can't hear the audio, but I understand that there was strong language involved...something else I disapprove of.  I know that they were all adults in the building, but it's a respect thing, and foul language shouldn't have a place in any dojo/dojang.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I'm still firm on my stand that I will not fight someone with the intent on injuring them, unless my life is at stake and I have every intention of ending theres. I am taught to end the fight, not to see how long I can last. This video proves nothing for me. I can get just as exhausted running around in circles for 3 hrs. If they want to test this guy. bring in a street punk and tell him to put him out of commission and time how long it takes him to do so.
> 
> I really do understand what you guys are saying. I just don't see the need for it in the year 2009. There are plenty of ways to come to the same result as what this guy did, without him having a cracked shin the next day.
> 
> We have just been taught that if we fight, its to kill. I don't see doing it any other way.


 

Kill? thats being over dramatic.

 And who had a cracked shin? I've not seen a cracked shin even in the many full contact MMA fights I've watched over the years.

Being taught to end a fight is fine supposing you are fighting someone who cannot fight, isn't a skilled as you nor as fit. What if you are facing an opponent/attacker who is fit, powerful and has techniques at least as good as yours, or you are facing someone high on drugs who feels no pain and seems to be fitted with the duracell bunny batteries who will take every strike and shrug it off?  The ones the police taze, rubber bullet etc and still stand there. Not all fights have the luxury of ending in a few seconds. What if you've just finishes a long days work, been training and been up all night with a crying baby and then you are attacked? Or you have the flu/cold/virus? 

Pressure training works, if I'm in trouble I'd be happy to have this guy watching my back, I don't want someone who's dojo techniques and spirit haven't been tested.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Kill? thats being over dramatic.
> 
> And who had a cracked shin? I've not seen a cracked shin even in the many full contact MMA fights I've watched over the years.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah your right "kill" is a little strong. I don't disagree with "testing" ones heart and spirit. But I don't need to knock someones teeth out to do that. Thats what I keep stressing. If you want to do that, its fine and I have no issue with that. But I won't be doing it, and I won't feel like any less of a martial artist just because I refuse to purposely hurt someone else.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 15, 2008)

As Brandon points out above, we've not seen the whole test, so it's hard to guage. I personally like the kumite -- although I would be padded from head to toe -- but it is way beyond me. If I took that grading when I took mine, at 46, I would not have passed. This seems to me to be a school that serves younger, more rough-and-ready folks.

Would have been nice to see more kata and demonstration of technique to get a better feel, but this is a greatest hits reel.


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## myusername (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I really do understand what you guys are saying. I just don't see the need for it in the year 2009. There are plenty of ways to come to the same result as what this guy did, without him having a cracked shin the next day.



I'm finding this debate really interesting as it goes to show how differently people can percieve the same piece of footage. We have obviously arrived at two completely different opinions. I personally feel that the sparring was hard but safe, bar a few bloody noses and bruises as far as I could see no one got seriously hurt. It served it's purpose of testing the student's spirit and also his techniques against a variety of different attackers using full resistance.

Can you honestly not see the benefits of this type of pressure testing? What other ways are there that would test the same thing as effectively?


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## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I really do understand what you guys are saying. I just don't see the need for it in the year 2009. There are plenty of ways to come to the same result as what this guy did, without him having a cracked shin the next day.



In your opinion, how do you train toughness and reaction under extreme pressure without being exposed to some pain and fear under fatiguing conditions?


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> In your opinion, how do you train toughness and reaction under extreme pressure without being exposed to some pain and fear under fatiguing conditions?


 

Fear will never be a part of a controlled class setting. I'm not ever going to be scared of someone I see 3 times a week, that I joke around with, and enjoy my class time with. I'm not going to all of a sudden become angry at this person for 3 minutes at a testing. We spar as hard as these guys are doing at my school.. but we at least wear shin guards and headgear/mouth piece. We also don't punch directly to the face. The head is fine, but not to the face. The fact that they didn't get injured doesn't change the fact that they easily could have.

As brandon explained..

at our 1st dan tests..

we will be subject to spar 1 on 1 with semi to heavy contact, then we will spar 2 on 1, and then possibly 3 on 1. 3 minute rounds of each, maybe multiple rounds. I will be moving, and executing the entire time. I will be just as tired as this guy is, and I will have pushed myself just as far as this guy did. But, I will have lessened the risk of leaving with any broken bones. I think you guys think I am afraid of pain, and don't want it to "hurt". Thats far from the truth. It should hurt, but It should still be safe. Getting hit with a haymaker to the jaw at pretty good force, doesn't seem all that safe to me. I have enough issues, don't want wires in my face. I'd rather exert all my force with gear, than pull my moves because we aren't wearing anything to keep me from seriously injuring myself or them.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> Yeah your right "kill" is a little strong. I don't disagree with "testing" ones heart and spirit. But I don't need to knock someones teeth out to do that. Thats what I keep stressing. If you want to do that, its fine and I have no issue with that. But I won't be doing it, and I won't feel like any less of a martial artist just because I refuse to purposely hurt someone else.


 
My point is that the video didn't show full contact fighting, it was semi contact, they weren't knocking each others teeth out nor were they KOing each other. If it had been I would have agreed with you, there no teeth were missing, no noses broken, no shins bust, a bit of exhaustion thats all. Full contact would have been so much harder.
It was quite mild stuff really. 
He didn't do this...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ekaP_EO1I&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kbv7T1LMGyg&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EP3KS6nOKFw&feature=related


A good watch actually lol!


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

myusername said:


> I'm finding this debate really interesting as it goes to show how differently people can percieve the same piece of footage. We have obviously arrived at two completely different opinions. I personally feel that the sparring was hard but safe, bar a few bloody noses and bruises as far as I could see no one got seriously hurt. It served it's purpose of testing the student's spirit and also his techniques against a variety of different attackers using full resistance.
> 
> Can you honestly not see the benefits of this type of pressure testing? What other ways are there that would test the same thing as effectively?


 
I can certainly see the benefits. I just see the risks as being far higher than the benefits in this case. I just feel the same result can be reached without risking injury.. thats all. It is interesting how differently people can view video footage and purvey it. I don't see this as anything other than differing analyzations of a particular subject. To me the guy looks like he's trying to hurt his fellow students. It doesn't look controlled.. it looks like wild swinging, and at one point he looks cocky because he's manhandling them.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> My point is that the video didn't show full contact fighting, it was semi contact, they weren't knocking each others teeth out nor were they KOing each other. If it had been I would have agreed with you, there no teeth were missing, no noses broken, no shins bust, a bit of exhaustion thats all. Full contact would have been so much harder.
> It was quite mild stuff really.
> He didn't do this...
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM&feature=related
> ...


 

You guys have a better eye for control than I do.. it doesn't look controlled to me.. so maybe I'm just overseeing things.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> Fear will never be a part of a controlled class setting. I'm not ever going to be scared of someone I see 3 times a week, that I joke around with, and enjoy my class time with. I'm not going to all of a sudden become angry at this person for 3 minutes at a testing. We spar as hard as these guys are doing at my school.. but we at least wear shin guards and headgear/mouth piece. We also don't punch directly to the face. The head is fine, but not to the face. The fact that they didn't get injured doesn't change the fact that they easily could have.
> 
> As brandon explained..
> 
> ...


 


We don't know that the people he sparred with were fellow students of his. Many organisations have several clubs/schools grading together. As I explained before headguards don't save you from brain injury.

I passed my BB test at 49, a female against all male students who didn't go easy on me, they were all sizes and ranged from pro MMA fighters to heavyweight karateka. I've been punched in the face but if you are it's your fault lol! Block, duck or whatever your style teaches you to do. If it doesn't a punch in the face teaches you PDQ!

All places I have trained at train safely, we don't kill each other in training!!


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> You guys have a better eye for control than I do.. it doesn't look controlled to me.. so maybe I'm just overseeing things.


 
I ref MMA fights and yes that is controlled, the fact there were no injuries isn't by accident, it's by control.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I ref MMA fights and yes that is controlled, the fact there were no injuries isn't by accident, it's by control.


 

I stand corrected.

you don't happen to have video of your BB testing do you?

I'd be interested to see.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> My point is that the video didn't show full contact fighting, it was semi contact, they weren't knocking each others teeth out nor were they KOing each other. If it had been I would have agreed with you, there no teeth were missing, no noses broken, no shins bust, a bit of exhaustion thats all. Full contact would have been so much harder.
> It was quite mild stuff really.
> He didn't do this...
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM&feature=related
> ...


 
First of all, I want you people to know that you're going to get me fired trying to watch all of these videos at work...and I'm blaming all of you who post them...lol.

But seriously...those videos of knockouts look closer to how we spar in class...those competitors didn't look like they were brawling.

Now, if the person testing had to fight 10 different people in the same fashion as those videos, then yeah, I can see how that would be effective...but what I'm saying is that the way the sparring looked during that testing, there didn't appear to be any clear rules...(I still can't hear audio, so I don't know if the rules were explained verbally or not).  It appeared to be something very much akin to a streetfight.

Whether or not they were going full force, 70%, 30%, or whatever, it still looked sloppy and unimpressive, as well as fairly uneffective.

I understand the point that a typical fight isn't going to be against someone else who is trained, but even if it is, the fight should be controlled by the person who is better trained, which in this case should be the person testing for blackbelt.

If he is expected to be judged on how much heart he has, why not just require him to defend, and make it illegal for him to attack?  To me, that would be much more effective than see him swinging for the fences against every person he spars or fights.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I ref MMA fights and yes that is controlled, the fact there were no injuries isn't by accident, it's by control.


 
I saw this, and I wanted to add in that when I'm saying that the person testing for blackbelt should have controlled the fight, I'm not referring to the fact that noone was seriously injured and that they were controlling how much power they used...rather, I'm referring to the fact that he didn't control his opponents...i.e., the pace and direction of each fight was not dictated by him.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> you don't happen to have video of your BB testing do you?
> 
> I'd be interested to see.


 
We don't video gradings, I can show you a photo of my front tooth which is now a crown that has to stay stuck in with superglue as the dentist won't fix it until I stop martial arts!! yep it got knocked out, the real tooth went the same way. 
My grading took all day, in the morning and afternnon I had to go through all my katas and line work many times. In the evening I had to do them all again with the two childrens classes then in the adults class I had to do the warm up then the self defence techniques we do then roll with the guys on the floor then stand up sparring. It wasn't full contact as far as they were concerned but I got to go for it full out. I was fitter then but was still absolutely chin strapped when I'd finished, I didn't even have the strength to take my belt. My previous club had been one where you more or less paid for you belts so I never knew whether I'd earned them. My present instructor devised a black belt test that would prove to me ( no one else really ) that I earned it. In August next year after nearly six years I'm going for my 2nd Dan, I have to up my fitness big style but am determined  no one will go easy on me because of age or gender!

I suppose I'm used to full contact fights ( we have our own promotion here) and watching fighting so the video didn't seem to be very full on. I wouldn't say when you are fighting you are so much trying to hurt someone as trying to outwit them and win. It's physical chess, the fun is in out manoevering them not hurting them. Injuries in MMA fights are rarely serious, cuts, bruises etc. the odd serious injury is rare enough to make the news and seems shocking.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I saw this, and I wanted to add in that when I'm saying that the person testing for blackbelt should have controlled the fight, I'm not referring to the fact that noone was seriously injured and that they were controlling how much power they used...rather, I'm referring to the fact that he didn't control his opponents...i.e., the pace and direction of each fight was not dictated by him.


 
I'm guessing the point of videoing the grading was so they can go over this and correct what they think was wrong. I wonder if those he was sparring were also grading?


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> My point is that the video didn't show full contact fighting, it was semi contact, they weren't knocking each others teeth out nor were they KOing each other. If it had been I would have agreed with you, there no teeth were missing, no noses broken, no shins bust, a bit of exhaustion thats all. Full contact would have been so much harder.
> It was quite mild stuff really.
> He didn't do this...
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM&feature=related
> ...


 

I can't watch these at work..

but BrandonLucas and I are from the same school.. so if he says its similar to what we do. I trust his judgement.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I can't watch these at work..
> 
> but BrandonLucas and I are from the same school.. so if he says its similar to what we do. I trust his judgement.


 

Myusername's and my instructor have trained together so I know his training and mindset will be similiar to mine. My instructor is from the Geoff Thompson way of looking at martial arts 'school'.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I'm guessing the point of videoing the grading was so they can go over this and correct what they think was wrong. I wonder if those he was sparring were also grading?


 
That's a valid point as well.  It's hard to tell exactly what's technically going on as I can't hear any audio...

But even if the others were testing as well, it didn't really seem like *anyone* really controlled the fights.  To me, it really looked like both people were more or less reacting to what the other was attacking with, but not reacting with anything effective.  Basically, brawling.

I guess that's really my biggest hang up about the testing itself, is the fact that the sparring wasn't anything more than basically brawling for periods of time.  

And, since I'm at work and can't turn the volume up on the video, is the language used pretty bad, or is pretty typical?  Basically, is it something that would be censered on a post here?  If that's the case, I still feel like someone should address that issue as well...I know that this was a bunch of guys working out and getting worn out, but to me, profanity in a dojo/dojang is disrespectful....if I were grading this test, if the profanity was stronger than a couple dammit's and hell's, I would count off.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> That's a valid point as well. It's hard to tell exactly what's technically going on as I can't hear any audio...
> 
> But even if the others were testing as well, it didn't really seem like *anyone* really controlled the fights. To me, it really looked like both people were more or less reacting to what the other was attacking with, but not reacting with anything effective. Basically, brawling.
> 
> ...


 
I haven't heard it.. but I was warned by what I think was a forum mod about it. So I would say it was bad enough.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> That's a valid point as well. It's hard to tell exactly what's technically going on as I can't hear any audio...
> 
> But even if the others were testing as well, it didn't really seem like *anyone* really controlled the fights. To me, it really looked like both people were more or less reacting to what the other was attacking with, but not reacting with anything effective. Basically, brawling.
> 
> ...


 

It's eminem type music, could be him actually, needs an expert to tell. personally it doesn't worry me as I can only tell a couple of words from the noise lol!
Perhaps the person videoing was 'reffing' the fight? It may have been a 'showpiece' just for the video, with everyone trying to keep out of the way. I wish we had access to the original people to find out what they thought, it may be completely different to everything everyone has posted


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> It's eminem type music, could be him actually, needs an expert to tell. personally it doesn't worry me as I can only tell a couple of words from the noise lol!
> Perhaps the person videoing was 'reffing' the fight? It may have been a 'showpiece' just for the video, with everyone trying to keep out of the way. I wish we had access to the original people to find out what they thought, it may be completely different to everything everyone has posted


 
Good point...knowing the whole story would help, wouldn't it?  lol


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> It was quite mild stuff really.
> He didn't do this...
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM&feature=related
> 
> ...


 
That fourth clip was really impressive.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> That fourth clip was really impressive.


 
Pretty good I thought! :ultracool


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## Brian King (Dec 15, 2008)

*Sylo wrote*


> I'm sorry. I was actually watching this from work (no speakers) so I didn't actually hear the audio. And actually its not something I would have expected to hear in the first place."
> 
> Had I known about it I would have issued the warning.


 
Understood sir, but how about fixing your carelessness and going back to your original post and editing in some kind of warning or asking a moderator to do so? The language used in the music and on the video cannot be typed here as the online censor correctly blocks it out. If I played that song at work or used that language myself I would possibly have my job terminated out of fear of hostile work environment and/or sexual harassment lawsuits. Not all work environments are so restrictive but many are. I have heard worse language of course but repeated use of the N word, F word the MF words and many others is not appropriate for many work environments and is not appropriate for children.

*Tez wrote*



> You understood the words?


 
LOL yah, too many years working in the clubs I guess.

Brian


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Brian said:


> *Sylo wrote*
> 
> 
> Understood sir, but how about fixing your carelessness and going back to your original post and editing in some kind of warning or asking a moderator to do so? The language used in the music and on the video cannot be typed here as the online censor correctly blocks it out. If I played that song at work or used that language myself I would possibly have my job terminated out of fear of hostile work environment and/or sexual harassment lawsuits. Not all work environments are so restrictive but many are. I have heard worse language of course but repeated use of the N word, F word the MF words and many others is not appropriate for many work environments and is not appropriate for children.
> ...


 
I'm just showing my age lol! 

This raises a whole new thread, on the Study though I think, about what is acceptable music doesn't it! One of our fighters have an Enimem song as his entry music, a lot of fighters have similiar lyrics and I've heard these songs on the radio, in public and other places yet no one blinks an eyelid although it blatently uses words they'd find offensive if used in conversation. I imagine being young the posters of the original video didn't think anything of it other than they liked the music, yet to others it's offensive. An odd part of our society.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

Brian said:


> *Sylo wrote*
> 
> 
> Understood sir, but how about fixing your carelessness and going back to your original post and editing in some kind of warning or asking a moderator to do so? The language used in the music and on the video cannot be typed here as the online censor correctly blocks it out. If I played that song at work or used that language myself I would possibly have my job terminated out of fear of hostile work environment and/or sexual harassment lawsuits. Not all work environments are so restrictive but many are. I have heard worse language of course but repeated use of the N word, F word the MF words and many others is not appropriate for many work environments and is not appropriate for children.
> ...


 
I apologize. Like I said, I don't have speakers. I cannot hear any of these videos. I will post a note on the original thread. I suppose I won't post videos from work.

The fact that they are playing offensive music alone.. turns me off.


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## elder999 (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I apologize. Like I said, I don't have speakers. I cannot hear any of these videos. I will post a note on the original thread. I suppose I won't post videos from work.
> 
> The fact that they are playing offensive music alone.. turns me off.


 

They probably added the music when they posted the video.


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## Blindside (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I apologize. Like I said, I don't have speakers. I cannot hear any of these videos. I will post a note on the original thread. I suppose I won't post videos from work.
> 
> The fact that they are playing offensive music alone.. turns me off.


 
The music was added in later, like many people do on youtube.  As for the people offended, you have a volume knob, use it.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 15, 2008)

*MOD NOTE*

Please report concerns so we can look into them faster.  

Content directly linked to must conform to our own content polices (ie no linking to porn). There are some small exceptions allowed in The Study, and only with advanced notice to avoid "Surprises".


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Blindside said:


> The music was added in later, like many people do on youtube. As for the people offended, you have a volume knob, use it.


 

To the point sir!! Tbh I don't find it offensive, bemusing more like lol!

It's what modern music is these days, I'm sure the posters didn't see anything disrespectful or even mean it, this is music they listen to everyday and just seemed apt for the video in their view.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

Brian said:


> *Sylo wrote*
> 
> 
> Understood sir, but how about fixing your carelessness and going back to your original post and editing in some kind of warning or asking a moderator to do so? The language used in the music and on the video cannot be typed here as the online censor correctly blocks it out. If I played that song at work or used that language myself I would possibly have my job terminated out of fear of hostile work environment and/or sexual harassment lawsuits. Not all work environments are so restrictive but many are. I have heard worse language of course but repeated use of the N word, F word the MF words and many others is not appropriate for many work environments and is not appropriate for children.
> ...


 
Just a quick note about this:

I also am at work, watching the video...and have my speakers muted for this very reason...actually, surfing is discouraged here, so I'm not even supposed to be watching the video.

I agree a note should be added to the OP, and I think we all share your concern as far as the language goes, but I think it's also fair to say that it was an honest oversight, and before you attempt to open any other videos from any website or forum, it's usually best to have your speakers either muted or very, very low.

Not to mention this request could have been posted with a slightly better "tone".


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

I can't seem to edit the original. can someone help?


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Just a quick note about this:
> 
> I also am at work, watching the video...and have my speakers muted for this very reason...actually, surfing is discouraged here, so I'm not even supposed to be watching the video.
> 
> ...


 

I don't open anything at work with speakers on, period.

You never know when its going to be a rickroll. In this case I am glad I don't have speakers so I don't even have to worry.


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## myusername (Dec 15, 2008)

It's only Eminem! He should definately be taken with a vey large pinch of salt. I'd worry more about my boss finding me watching footage of people beating the crap out of each other than I would them finding out I had very bad taste in music!

As for being suitable for children, The video title is called "Brutal Karate Test!"


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I guess, I'm not old school enough.


 
Please don't take this wrong but lets just go with the above quote and be done with it.


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## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> Fear will never be a part of a controlled class setting. I'm not ever going to be scared of someone I see 3 times a week, that I joke around with, and enjoy my class time with. I'm not going to all of a sudden become angry at this person for 3 minutes at a testing. We spar as hard as these guys are doing at my school.. but we at least wear shin guards and headgear/mouth piece. We also don't punch directly to the face. The head is fine, but not to the face. The fact that they didn't get injured doesn't change the fact that they easily could have.
> 
> As brandon explained..
> 
> ...



My experiences were considerably different.  The first thing my teacher taught was you must be rid of your fear of being struck - the flinch reflex must be eradicated before you can learn anything of substance.  Sure you can practice footwork, learn a few kicks or punches, etc, but the mastery of the advanced material will elude one if one if constantly shirking from contact or worse freezing up and closing one's eyes.

Part of eradicating fear involved lots of lots of hitting.  From Sensei, from your sempai, from your classmates.  It's just part of martial arts in my opinion.

I understand everyone has their own ideas, but I see nothing brutal or out of the ordinary within these videos.  It's not exactly my idea of a black belt test, but I respect it more than many that I have seen on Youtube.


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## MJS (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I can't seem to edit the original. can someone help?


 
I can offer some assistance.   What is it you're trying to do?


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> My experiences were considerably different. The first thing my teacher taught was you must be rid of your fear of being struck - the flinch reflex must be eradicated before you can learn anything of substance. Sure you can practice footwork, learn a few kicks or punches, etc, but the mastery of the advanced material will elude one if one if constantly shirking from contact or worse freezing up and closing one's eyes.
> 
> Part of eradicating fear involved lots of lots of hitting. From Sensei, from your sempai, from your classmates. It's just part of martial arts in my opinion.
> 
> I understand everyone has their own ideas, but I see nothing brutal or out of the ordinary within these videos. It's not exactly my idea of a black belt test, but I respect it more than many that I have seen on Youtube.


 
I can agree with your point of view...but...

Go back and watch the video from start to finish, and then explain how any of what the guy did resembled anything to do with a martial art, other than throwing his leg at the other guy in an awkward fashion.

It was nothing but brawling from start to finish, pure and simple.  And while I give the guy huge props for being able to last that long going that hard against that many people, it shows absolutely nothing of his martial arts skill...only that he has the ability to brawl for a long time....and not very well, in my opinion.

Like it was stated before, we may not be seeing what all exactly is included in the test, or what the true purpose of the test was supposed to be...but I seriously hope it wasn't a test on using techniques that were taught within that martial art.   The guy can hit hard, and can take some pretty hard hits himself...but I still don't see how this could be any kind of test of actual martial skill....not to mention that some of the white belts that he fought were giving him a run for his money while he was still fresh.


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## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Go back and watch the video from start to finish, and then explain how any of what the guy did resembled anything to do with a martial art, other than throwing his leg at the other guy in an awkward fashion.
> 
> It was nothing but brawling from start to finish, pure and simple.  And while I give the guy huge props for being able to last that long going that hard against that many people, it shows absolutely nothing of his martial arts skill...only that he has the ability to brawl for a long time....and not very well, in my opinion.



Well sure.  There's a lot about his technique as well as understanding of range that I would critique.  His stances in his kata are not exacting either; he stands too high and his center of gravity is somewhere above his hips.  If I hadn't recognized the trademark cat stances, albeit executed in an _interesting_ manner, I would have pegged him for a Kyokushin guy.  

Lots to work on, but he surely knows that.  Still, his school looks to be light years above the McDojo on the corner of the block.   I have nothing bad to say about them.


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## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> Well sure.  There's a lot about his technique as well as understanding of range that I would critique.  His stances in his kata are not exacting either; he stands too high and his center of gravity is somewhere above his hips.  If I hadn't recognized the trademark cat stances, albeit executed in an _interesting_ manner, I would have pegged him for a Kyokushin guy.
> 
> Lots to work on, but he surely knows that.  Still, his school looks to be light years above the McDojo on the corner of the block.   I have nothing bad to say about them.



And so it goes back to that.

Maybe I'm wrong in what I thought the definition of mcdojo.. seems we need to find a new term.

Mcdojo = school hell bent on finding any and all ways to charge you money for everything. They don't care about anything other than money. Everything else is tossed out the window.

Crapojo = school who doesn't seem to be out of line in anything other than the instruction, which is mediocre or just plain wrong.

I don't think we know enough about these guys to make any sort of informed decision on what kind of school they are. Its pretty "ghetto" for a lack of a better term.. but thats about all  I can say about it. Looks aren't everything though.


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## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2008)

Sylo said:


> And so it goes back to that.
> Maybe I'm wrong in what I thought the definition of mcdojo.. seems we need to find a new term.
> 
> ....
> I don't think we know enough about these guys to make any sort of informed decision on what kind of school they are



<shrugs>  Poor quality = poor quality whatever term you want to use.  'Ghetto' sensibilities aside, the effort and desire shown in that video is light years beyond many other such videos I've seen.  I can tell that much.  If it's not for you, great.


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## Brian King (Dec 16, 2008)

_*Off topic sorry* but there have been several posts referenced._

*Mod Note: Content Warning  Language*

Thank You.

*BrandonLucas wrote*



> Not to mention this request could have been posted with a slightly better "tone".


 
You are probably correct. I should have just reported the post with that triangle symbol thingy but I thought a word to the wise would result in a warning being posted. In this case it took two separate posts but only one day so that is not too bad. I thought it worth it so that Sylo and others posting links in the future would maybe take a moment to post a warning if they feel the need to post a link that is offensive. My bad...sorry Bob.




> I think we all share your concern as far as the language goes, but I think it's also fair to say that it was an honest oversight, and before you attempt to open any other videos from any website or forum, it's usually best to have your speakers either muted or very, very low.


 
That is of course good advice for those that are able to watch videos while at work. It is in my opinion, up to the people posting on this forum to be aware of what they are posting. The responsibility is theirs. If a woman gets raped do you blame the girl for the way she dresses or for being out late at night or do you blame the rapist? 

Some lessons I have learned LOL, some the hard way. When we post on a public forum we should be aware that it not only can it be out there forever but that it represents who we are and what we think at that particular moment in our lives. If we post in haste with lots of spelling and grammar errors it shows that we do not care, it is like dressing in wrinkled clothing picked up off the floor. If we post using offensive language it shows that we not only have limited vocabulary but that we are selfish feeling that we have to vent no matter who might be reading. If we post things that are incorrect and do not attempt to correct those things it shows that we are unprofessional in our attitude. 

In the first post Sylo said that he found this video the other day while surfing. And then later posted the explanation that he was watching the video at work with no speakers so didnt actually hear the audio. He also said that had he known about the foul language he would have issued a warning. Then eagerly returned to the subject of the post and the controversy he was working thru without attempting to post a warning. This eagerness is very understandable and I can totally emphasize with wanting to defend views and to clarify posts. Again this is my opinion but if you have a video/article link, especially if you have it for a lengthy time period, you should know what you have before you post it. I remember that MMA star (Matt Hughes I think?) who had his picture taken holding up a fans t-shirt. The logo and web site on the t-shirt was tied to some kind of raciest web site and Mr. Hughes had to defend himself from charges of racism. It is sloppy. If we are sloppy in our posting, when we control the time that we have to post, I believe it reflects on our nature. Rather than telling people that click on links they should have their speakers off it would be wiser I feel to take a moment and check what we are posting. But that might just be me. I do now know that any link that Sylo posts is suspect and I will probably not bother to open it at all, no matter at home or at work. Once bitten twice shy and all that. I do not think he is a bad person or evil or anything like that quite the opposite rather, still, he was not willing to take the time to check what he was posting and when made aware of what he was posting did nothing to remedy the oversight until a second notice. I am grateful that he finally did seek to remedy the omission and a warning was placed in the OP. Perhaps a lesson learned?

BrandonLucas I applaud you defending your friend/student. That is nice and loyalty should always be recognized and lauded. I am sorry you did not like my tone. I apologize since the tone of one or both of my posts seems to have offended you especially since neither was addressed to you LOL at least I did not subject you to unwanted foul language. Believe it or not the second post was edited several times toning down my disappointment that no attempt was made to correct the oversight other than admitting it was an oversight, I am afraid that I am much like a bull in a china shop when it comes to being tactful and civil and often have to figuratively bite my tongue and count to ten before even organizing my thoughts into a rational conversation let alone before hitting the enter button on anything that I have written. Even with that I often fail and offend rather than communicate in my attempts to be honest without being needlessly offensive. LOL I have even waited days and sought others opinions before deciding to post or not to post on some threads here on MT because I am aware of my nature and that I can be rather terse and mean with my writing. I continue to work on this short coming and thank you for the reminder that much work is still needed.

*Blindside wrote*



> As for the people offended, you have a volume knob, use it.


 
Actually sir, I just closed the window and did not finish watching the video. If there had been a warning I would not have opened the link to begin with. When CDs and movies are sold they have warning labels on the covers, when movies or shows are shown on Television or in theaters they have ratings so that people are not surprised. If I go into a seedy bar I can expect to hear foul language so I limit my exposure to those places, the 3 S rule applies. I do not expect to hear unnecessary foul language from links here on MT. There are other MA forums that have lots of foul language both written in the posts and on the links posted. I do not visit or contribute to those forums. Martial Talk has higher standards and the people that post here also have higher standards or should have higher standards. I agree that there is an off switch and a volume knob and do use both but I also appreciate a little advanced notice of when I will have to use them. The language was offensive by definition but I was not offended. I have little respect for those that are compelled to use foul language unnecessarily and even less for those that earn money doing so yet do not call for censorship just the right to not be assaulted it. Those that enjoy that stuff are welcomed to it, just keep it to yourselves and allow me to avoid it. Is that too much to ask? 

Regards
Brian King


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2008)

I think what we have developing is a discussion on musical tastes, there are many people who think that Emimem is a valid musician and has as much right to be heard as Beethoven, many however find his music offensive.
Did I find it offensive? No. I have to say I didn't. It's part of youth culture ( and now I'm going to sound soooo old!) it's music that many of my students listen too, my son listens to, a warning perhaps that the music was rap would have been enough to my mind. When we train in the adults class it will be on the stereo. It's a musical genre that is very popular and as with much music tells a story.  
I don't use a computer at work, the civilians I know who do wouldn't have their computers speakers up loud enough to bother anyone if they played something like that.

About the content of the video, whether the techniques used were skilful or not, the intensity of the sparring wasn't such that it was brutal or unusual. It was semi contact sparring seen most weekends in karate competitions up and down the country. It's miles away from the TKD we've seen at the Olympics and it's not as full contact as MMA. As Dancingalone says if thats not for you fine but don't brand those of us who actually spar like we mean it as being brutal for this day and age! Looking down your noses at people who are trying to train sincerely isn't helpful.


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think what we have developing is a discussion on musical tastes, there are many people who think that Emimem is a valid musician and has as much right to be heard as Beethoven, many however find his music offensive.
> Did I find it offensive? No. I have to say I didn't. It's part of youth culture ( and now I'm going to sound soooo old!) it's music that many of my students listen too, my son listens to, a warning perhaps that the music was rap would have been enough to my mind. When we train in the adults class it will be on the stereo. It's a musical genre that is very popular and as with much music tells a story.
> I don't use a computer at work, the civilians I know who do wouldn't have their computers speakers up loud enough to bother anyone if they played something like that.
> 
> About the content of the video, whether the techniques used were skilful or not, the intensity of the sparring wasn't such that it was brutal or unusual. It was semi contact sparring seen most weekends in karate competitions up and down the country. It's miles away from the TKD we've seen at the Olympics and it's not as full contact as MMA. As Dancingalone says if thats not for you fine but don't brand those of us who actually spar like we mean it as being brutal for this day and age! Looking down your noses at people who are trying to train sincerely isn't helpful.



We spar more like the guys in the video than we do the Olympics. We just wear at least some safety gear when we do it. We spar pretty hard as well. Its not light contact. Not looking down at you guys at all. Some parts of that video look worse than others. 

As for the warning about the audio. I'm trying to get that fixed. It may have been faster to just have reported the thread in the first place if it was that offensive. I am tyring to take the steps to get it corrected.


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

MJS said:


> I can offer some assistance.   What is it you're trying to do?




I'm trying to edit the original post with a warning about the music in the background.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I'm trying to edit the original post with a warning about the music in the background.


 
I think a warning that its rap music would be enough, you could offend a lot of other people by posting up that their favourite music is offensive!


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think a warning that its rap music would be enough, you could offend a lot of other people by posting up that their favourite music is offensive!


 

I was just going to say something like...

(Advisory Notice: Music may be Offensive to some listeners)


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 16, 2008)

Ok, on the topic of offensive material:

Bob posted a note on one of the pages of this thread that the material subjected to this site should be within the realm of the rules and regulations set by admin and the mods.  I also know that there is now a warning on the OP, so no harm no foul...

But I don't want any one person taking the blame...it's a double-edged sword.  Sylo should have gone back and attempted to edit the OP when notified that there was offensive language, and by the same token, I think it's a wise thing to be careful and wary of what you open and when you open it.  I'm at work while posting this, and we have rules against surfing...now, that doesn't really mean that I'm not going to surf at all, but rather, I'm going to be careful while I'm surfing.  So for anyone who reads this, I would advise on both sides of the issue, be careful of what you post, and also be aware of what you open before you open it...have your speakers either low or off, and read any comments about the material first...and if posting a video or link, please be mindful of anything offensive or not safe for work.

Now, on to the video itself:

I'm not bashing the video for being semi or full contact.  That's not the issue for me.  For me, it's more about the fact that this was supposed to be a blackbelt test.  I still don't see anything in that video to indicate that he was ready to test for a blackbelt.

The form was shaky...the stances weren't solid, and the techniques were barely recognizable.

The sparring...I still fail to see anything in that video that would indicate a knowledge of any martial art.  From the first fight to the last fight, the guy testing was not "sparring" or "fighting" with anything that made any sense...it just seemed like bar-room brawling to me.  There was no technique in any kick or punch thrown from any person.  The punches that were thrown were some of the worst haymakers I've ever seen someone actually throw.  The kicks that were thrown could have possibly had some technique, except that I've seen kids in highschool do the same thing that were not trained in anything at all.

Basically, everything presented on that video was sloppy at best.  I'm not arguing the fact that the guy was going at it hard...I know he was...when you're not able to stand at the end of your testing, you've gone at it pretty hard.  And I also understand that we're possibly not seeing the whole testing, so we don't know for sure what all has happened or what the rules were.  But, the video, presented the way it is, is presented as a black belt test.  There are things edited out.  There are things that weren't taped.  But all we have to go on is what's presented in that video.  The guy looked pretty fresh when he got ready to spar his first opponent, so I don't see how being winded or exhausted can be a valid reason for the lack of technique.

And I can certainly hope that he did learn from his mistakes in that video...but what concerns me is that all the students fought the same way.  It didn't appear that anyone had control of anything...it was just a bunch of random kicks and punches thrown with the intent of hurting the opponent, i.e. brawling.  In other words, all of these students in this video were taught in the same manner.  

I'll go out on a limb and say that while the actual training may have been hard and focused on physical toughness, the technique was very lacking, and stops short of being a martial art.  What I saw in that video resembled more of what a toughman competition would look like, minus the sloppy form.

Now, please note that I'm seriously not trying to bash the guy in terms of what he's capable of.  I'm just trying to point out that what I saw in that video does not resemble a martial art at all.  Even people who posted comments on the video were hard pressed to identify the style.  Not because it's an unpopular style, but because there was no "style" to speak of.  I wouldn't necessarily say that it's far and away from the McDojo on the corner or in the mall...the fact that they allow harder contact than your average McDojo doesn't change the fact that there was no skill involved in what was shown.

I do agree with saying that if it's not for you, it's not for you.  But, the same statement applies to McDojos as well.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 16, 2008)

On the question in the origianal post.

It looked verry much like a normal Black Belt test to me.  But then I have been around a little while and all tests back in the old days where brutal


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 16, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> On the question in the origianal post.
> 
> It looked verry much like a normal Black Belt test to me. But then I have been around a little while and all tests back in the old days where brutal


 
That's what I don't understand.  How can this be a valid test if no one at the testing is showing any knowledge of the martial arts?  The form was sloppy, the sparring was simply brawling at best, and not extremely brutal, actually.  I have seen worse, but I would expect more from a black belt that's testing.

I'm all for bleeding in class and getting banged and bruised up.  I think it helps learn what the martial arts is all about.  But, from that video, there was nothing that showed martial arts training.  And I'm not speaking from a modern standpoint; rather, I'm speaking from a martial artist stand point.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2008)

I understood the OP to be not so much about the techniques but the contact made. he seemed disturbed that they were making too ha5rd a contact. It didn't seem to be about the actual techniques.
As I've said and was pointed out on the video comments, when exhausted techniques can go straight out of the window.
The question probably is, when you were absolutely cream crackered would you fight him, could you show better techniques and could you beat him? Thats the bottom line always, if you fight will you win?

When black belt tests are like this, you know you've earned your belt. All the perfect katas/forms in the world don't mean  a thing unless you can fight to win.


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## dancingalone (Dec 16, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I'm not bashing the video for being semi or full contact.  That's not the issue for me.  For me, it's more about the fact that this was supposed to be a blackbelt test.  I still don't see anything in that video to indicate that he was ready to test for a blackbelt.
> 
> The form was shaky...the stances weren't solid, and the techniques were barely recognizable.
> 
> ...




Some styles or schools put a premium on effort and intensity over pure technique.  They pay lip service to kata.  The main focus is on kumite and since you're thrown into the fray at an early time, sometimes you might develop some ugly rush-and-crush tactics that you never let go of, since it works a lot of the time.  If you ever stop by a kyokushin school you'll know what I am referring to.  (I am of course generalizing.)  

At the same time, I daresay they would have some interesting things to say about other schools that don't match their ferocity.  It's harder than many think to face down someone big and strong, who may not have refined technique but nonetheless is used to LOTS of contact and has a working idea on how to strike.

I don't have a huge issue with anything you're saying, Brandon, other than it not being necessarily better than a McDojo.  I think you're far off the mark there.  Tough training, no matter how brutish or unrefined, is better than soft, unrealistic practice.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2008)

Remember this?
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=1264j...********/forums/showthread.php?t=78705&page=2

Rhetorical question, which is better the video in the OP or this?


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I understood the OP to be not so much about the techniques but the contact made. he seemed disturbed that they were making too ha5rd a contact. It didn't seem to be about the actual techniques.
> As I've said and was pointed out on the video comments, when exhausted techniques can go straight out of the window.
> The question probably is, when you were absolutely cream crackered would you fight him, could you show better techniques and could you beat him? Thats the bottom line always, if you fight will you win?
> 
> When black belt tests are like this, you know you've earned your belt. All the perfect katas/forms in the world don't mean a thing unless you can fight to win.


 
It was a mixture of both.

It looked more brutal to me, because the guy as brandon has stated several times looked like he was just throwing junk and not paying attention to any sort of technique.. even when he is fresh. Random wild haymakers, and such. He looked like he was trying to hurt those people from my point of view. I kept waiting to see techniques implemented from his art, but all I saw was random haymakers. Stuff untrained fighters would do. I thought a test was something that made you show that you know what you've learned?

TKD is primarily kicking so you wouldn't see me doing many punches to the face anyway, save a few backfists etc. But our sparring is alot more intense than this is. We do wear some safety gear.. but Its alot more fast paced than this was. I still agree with Brandon.. it looks like bar brawling to me. Winded or not.


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## dancingalone (Dec 16, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I kept waiting to see techniques implemented from his art, but all I saw was random haymakers. Stuff untrained fighters would do. I thought a test was something that made you show that you know what you've learned?



What makes you think his school doesn't train haymakers?  They very well might or perhaps he has some boxing experience and his instructor is OK with him using it.

Lots of different arts do things differently because they value or emphasize different things.  I rarely kick with my instep because in my style it's liable to be broken by a crushing elbow block, but I know the majority of Korean stylists out there primarily use the instep for the roundhouse kick.  Their rule set is such that they don't have to worry about it.

It's dangerous to judge exclusively through the lens of your own martial arts.  I'll leave it at that.


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Remember this?
> http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=1264j...********/forums/showthread.php?t=78705&page=2
> 
> Rhetorical question, which is better the video in the OP or this?


 

Ha....

This is not even a question.

See thats my point. I can't agree that either of these video's are "good". This one is obviously a Mcdojo, and is 100% exactly what happens at schools like that.

The other video, because we don't know anything else other than what the video shows us.. looks like unstructured brawling in my eyes. Let me see if I can dig up a video of what I would consider a "good" test of sparring skill. I'm not sure youtube has any. My school is not like either of these videos. We spar hard, but we spar alot safer and alot more controlled and skillful than these guys do.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 16, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> Some styles or schools put a premium on effort and intensity over pure technique. They pay lip service to kata. The main focus is on kumite and since you're thrown into the fray at an early time, sometimes you might develop some ugly rush-and-crush tactics and you never let go of, since it works a lot of the time. If you ever stop by a kyokushin school you'll know what I am referring to. (I am of course generalizing.)
> 
> At the same time, I daresay they would have some interesting things to sat about other schools that don't match their ferocity. It's harder than many think to face down someone big and strong who may not have refined technique but nonetheless is used to LOTS of contact and has a working idea on how to strike.
> 
> I don't have a huge issue with anything you're saying, Brandon, other than it not being necessarily better than a McDojo. I think you're far off the mark there. Tough training no matter how brutish or unrefined is better than soft, unrealistic practice.


 
I agree with much of what you're saying as well, and I understand that different schools and different martial arts are going to be taught differently.  

I'm not looking for perfect technique in form or sparring.  I'm really not, because I understand that in a SD situation, like Tez pointed out, your technique isn't going to be what it is in class, more than likely...so if you train that way, you'll be better prepared if the time ever comes to defend yourself.

I don't think I'm far off the mark about this particular school not being any better than a McDojo, though.  It's true that tough training is better than soft, unrealistic practice.  But I don't agree that if the training is unrefined, that it would still make it a legit school.  To me, their technique wasn't so much unrefined as it was almost non-existant. 

It appears to me that what they're doing is just trying to hurt eachother, which is, what I think, was the concern in the OP.  Now, it doesn't appear that it was necessarily full force, but they were obviously hitting hard enough to hurt eachother, which appeared to be the goal.  

I'm not as concerned, however, with the amount of impact that was behind the punches and kicks.  I applaud them for hitting that hard, and wish more schools would adopt that way of thinking again.  In that aspect, I can see how the video can be compared to old-school training.

What I don't agree with is the method and intent in which they are hitting each other.  They aren't sparring to end the fight quickly...they aren't sparring to show correct technique in a real fight situation....they certainly aren't point sparring (thankfully!)...but it appears to me that they are simply trying to just inflict damage to their opponent for the sake of inflicting damage.  There is no rhyme or reason for the vast majority of the techniques thrown.  

The person testing continuously throws haymakers to each opponents jaw, usually with little success.  Almost the entire time he's fighting he does this, with little deviation from his "plan of attack".  At no point does he change up his attack...at no point does he appear to realize that what he's doing isn't working...he simply continues to throw wild punches until 1 or 2 land.  The leg kicks did appear to be somewhat effective, except that he didn't appear to understand how to use them effectively...he did the same with the kicks that he did with the punches, just throwing them until they landed. 

The reason that this is no better than a McDojo, to me, is that while they are training in a hard fashion, they are not actually being taught anything about how to defend themselves.  It looked from the video that the person testing was tough naturally, since there was no actual technique used from any of his opponents or from him.  No one showed any knowlege of locks, holds, throws, kicks, punches or blocks.  It didn't appear to be anything other than a street brawl against different opponents.

I'm not so much concerned about the form.  I do understand that some schools don't put much emphasis on forms, which is another topic all together.  I'm not saying that the stances have to be perfect, or the puches and kicks need to be stiff.  The form really just backs up what the sparring was like, for me.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2008)

Ah here we are ripping some Dojo to pieces because we've seen a few minutes on U Tube. 
How easy it is to criticise others, how easy it is to feel 'well we do it right' when we know nothing about the people in the clip. 
the advice being given on MT to people is that if you're happy with what you're doing, do it. yet here we are taking an unknown to pieces over techniques, style, intentisity and the poor chap has no right of reply. We've tried in all fairness to come up with reasons and explainations in lieu of the Dojo itself being able to explain. 
There's nothing wrong with the intensity of the sparring to my mind, the techniques, well I have an open mind and prefer not to criticise without the person being able to have the right of reply. 
We can all pick out stuff of U Tube we don't like, there's enough stuff out there goodness knows. perhaps we should stick to things where the person in the video can answer back rather than have every single part of him picked over and panned.


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> What makes you think his school doesn't train haymakers? They very well might or perhaps he has some boxing experience and his instructor is OK with him using it.
> 
> Lots of different arts do things differently because they value or emphasize different things. I rarely kick with my instep because in my style it's liable to be broken by a crushing elbow block, but I know the majority of Korean stylists out there primarily use the instep for the roundhouse kick. Their rule set is such that they don't have to worry about it.
> 
> It's dangerous to judge exclusively through the lens of your own martial arts. I'll leave it at that.


 

Maybe they do train haymakers. But, the point here is.. obviously they aren't teaching them proper use. As has already been pointed out. He's throwing the same 1/2 moves and never deviating from that. He looks to me like he WANTS to knock these people out. He doesn't want to subdue them quickly. If it were me and I knew I had to fight 10 people in succession. My training would lead me to want to deal with these fighters as fast as possible. By doing the most effective fight ending stuff first. We don't know what the rules of these matches were, other than it looks like there were none. What constitutes a fight ender here? Obviously he hurt the 1 guy's leg with the leg kick. And he busted at least one guys nose. Now, in normal circumstances neither of these things would end a fight. So how do you judge what would? He just doesn't like like he's trying to do anything but hurt these people. If you haven't landed anything after the 17th haymaker.. DO SOMETHING ELSE. He's overpowering most of these guys simply because he is bigger in some cases. He does look intimidating at times, and to me a tad cocky. Especially when he knocks them down or hurts them. I don't see respect either between fighters.. at certain points.. the guys he is beating down look like they are about to get mad and let anger get involved..

thats just how I view it.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 16, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> What makes you think his school doesn't train haymakers? They very well might or perhaps he has some boxing experience and his instructor is OK with him using it.
> 
> Lots of different arts do things differently because they value or emphasize different things. I rarely kick with my instep because in my style it's liable to be broken by a crushing elbow block, but I know the majority of Korean stylists out there primarily use the instep for the roundhouse kick. Their rule set is such that they don't have to worry about it.
> 
> It's dangerous to judge exclusively through the lens of your own martial arts. I'll leave it at that.


 
We seem to have alot of the same ideas, but we're looking at them differently, I think.

Your example for using the instep is a good example...and I'll add to that, if I may...

I am taught to kick with my instep and the ball of my foot in class...however, I rarely kick this way.  I use my shin, as it covers a greater range, can generate more force, and is less likely to be injured.  That being said, I understand the need to adapt my attack, and I use it regularly.

The person testing did not change or adapt his methods of attack...which would indicate that he didn't learn anything about using the attacks that were taught, even if they were, in fact, haymakers.

In order for a martial art to be effective, the person learning the art must be able to adapt to the fight.  The person testing did not do this at all...just kept plugging away with wild punches and kicks.


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Ah here we are ripping some Dojo to pieces because we've seen a few minutes on U Tube.
> How easy it is to criticise others, how easy it is to feel 'well we do it right' when we know nothing about the people in the clip.
> the advice being given on MT to people is that if you're happy with what you're doing, do it. yet here we are taking an unknown to pieces over techniques, style, intentisity and the poor chap has no right of reply. We've tried in all fairness to come up with reasons and explainations in lieu of the Dojo itself being able to explain.
> There's nothing wrong with the intensity of the sparring to my mind, the techniques, well I have an open mind and prefer not to criticise without the person being able to have the right of reply.
> We can all pick out stuff of U Tube we don't like, there's enough stuff out there goodness knows. perhaps we should stick to things where the person in the video can answer back rather than have every single part of him picked over and panned.


 

I'll go with this.

There are just going to be differing opinions we are human after all. Noone is right or wrong in this case.. its preference imo.

I don't think ATA/NASKA/WTF sparring should be even considered part of the martial arts.. and there are others who will defend it til death.

so.. to each his own.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Ah here we are ripping some Dojo to pieces because we've seen a few minutes on U Tube.
> How easy it is to criticise others, how easy it is to feel 'well we do it right' when we know nothing about the people in the clip.
> the advice being given on MT to people is that if you're happy with what you're doing, do it. yet here we are taking an unknown to pieces over techniques, style, intentisity and the poor chap has no right of reply. We've tried in all fairness to come up with reasons and explainations in lieu of the Dojo itself being able to explain.
> There's nothing wrong with the intensity of the sparring to my mind, the techniques, well I have an open mind and prefer not to criticise without the person being able to have the right of reply.
> We can all pick out stuff of U Tube we don't like, there's enough stuff out there goodness knows. perhaps we should stick to things where the person in the video can answer back rather than have every single part of him picked over and panned.


 
Please understand, this is nothing more than an enjoyable debate to me...I'm not out to bash anyone's school or art or anything of that nature.

Like I said before, there are many unknowns from the video...all we have to go on is what is presented within the video itself.  The video is up for scrutiny, IMO, simply because it was posted for public viewing.  If the dojo is concerned about bad publicity, or if the person testing didn't want the general public to see the video, I don't think it would have been posted.

But, again, I'm seriously not trying to bash any of this.  I'm not saying that my way of training is superior or anything of that nature, either...I'm just pointing out that while it may not be as "brutal" to some as it was to Sylo, I think it bears mentioning that it also wasn't effective.  And if we're to get a picture of what the dojo is like from that video, I personally wouldn't be impressed.  But, to be fair, I don't think that the video was meant to be a direct representation of the dojo itself, rather, it was meant to show the ability of the student testing for blackbelt.

However, when a student becomes blackbelt from a dojo, they, at that point, represent the dojo in their training...so, in a way, the video does, in fact, represent what's being taught.  

Just wanted to clear up where I'm coming from with this....I'm not trying to bash anyone or anything...just discussing.


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## elder999 (Dec 16, 2008)

Just a couple of things.

Someone mentioned things on the vid looking "ghetto" to them. Not 100% sure what they meant, but I thought I'd just point out that when it comes to fighting arts, "ghetto" is sometimes the way to go: kajukenbo came from what was essentially a ghetto. Back in the  day, Fred Hamilton's dojo in Harlem, while mostly straight up shotokan, produced some good fighters. Miyama ryu was created in what some would call a ghetto. What I'm trying to say is that when it comes to _applying_ a martial art, an environment like a ghetto, where people are more likely to have to use their skills in self-defense, becomes an excellent laboratory for development of martial skills.

As far as the content of the vid, well, yes, it looks sloppy, but we have no real context: no idea of what "rules" there were, if any, no idea of how long it had been going on, only that it was part of a test. I'll point out that if you think you're going to look like you do when you're sparring when you have to defend yourself in the streets, you're wrong. I'll also point out that fatigue and pressure are one analogue one can use in training for the fear, stress and physical reaction to adrenaline that take place in a real self defense situation.

I don't have any video of any of my tests, regretfully-I can say that towards the end of some of them, I'm sure that I looked just as sloppy. I don't have video of me in a 10 man kumite, or 15, or 30, or 50, but I can say that each time I'm pretty certain I felt like I looked just as sloppy after the 5th or 6th man. I'm dead certain I looked just as sloppy after the 10th or 11th. :lol:

As far as "brutality" goes, I'll offer the following:

Shokei Matsui was something of kyokushin prodigy. He earned 1st dan in a year, at age 14,and  won many championships in Japan, all fought with kyokushin type rules: full contact, leg kicks permitted, throwing permitted.
Until  he did it, in 1986, men who tested themselves with the 100 man kumite were permitted to do it over the course of two days. 

He took *4 hours.*

(I think it took me something like 6 hours to fight 50. :lfao

Considered a test for advanced kyokushin practitioners, and those off shoots of kyokushin-as well, perhaps,asanyone who decides to do it-the  100 man kumite is pretty simple, as far as rules go: kyokushin rules, full contact, leg kicks and throws permitted, knockdowns apply.One two minute round per man,(now). No undue breaks. Each man is fresh. The man being tested has to score a full point, then it's on to the next man. He also has to clearly have won 50% of the contests-he can't have too many points scored on him.

Here's a video of Shokei Matsui, sensei, showing him working out, highlights of some of his bouts at championships, and, at 1:54 in, portions of his 100 man kumite. If you look to the right, you'll occasionally see a sign showing the number of the man he's contesting against. While his form is, as far as I'm concerned, peerless, you'll see that as time goes on, his "sloppiness" becomes apparent, even to a layman, I would think.

Shokei Matsui 100 man kumite


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 16, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Just a couple of things.
> 
> Someone mentioned things on the vid looking "ghetto" to them. Not 100% sure what they meant, but I thought I'd just point out that when it comes to fighting arts, "ghetto" is sometimes the way to go: kajukenbo came from what was essentially a ghetto. Back in the day, Fred Hamilton's dojo in Harlem, while mostly straight up shotokan, produced some good fighters. Miyama ryu was created in what some would call a ghetto. What I'm trying to say is that when it comes to _applying_ a martial art, an environment like a ghetto, where people are more likely to have to use their skills in self-defense, becomes an excellent laboratory for development of martial skills.
> 
> ...


 
In terms of the "ghetto" reference, I tend to agree with you. If you need to augment your style of fighting to fit your surroundings, then by all means, apply what you know and adjust.  The problem is that none of the students adjusted their method of attack and defense.  If something didn't work, they just continued to throw the attack until it eventually did work...it wasn't just the person testing, but each opponent did this as well...that's what worries me about what is being taught. 

But that is not what happened in that video. The guy looked fairly fresh in the first fight shown, and it gets to be pretty apparent when he's at the end of the matches. Given what's shown, I'm not going to assume that he was tired or exhausted enough to warrant the brawling that was done.

The video you posted of Shokei Matsui shouldn't be compared to the video in the OP. First, Shokei Matsui was awesome to say the least. But, even taking that into consideration, there are actual techniques thrown by both opponents...it doesn't look anything like a street brawl like the original video did.

Now, I do understand and agree that realistic fighting is not going to resemble what actual sparring looks like...but I've seen enough real fights to know that what they were doing in that class wasn't impressive even on those terms.

The one aspect that would change part of my view on the video is if each fight was actually timed, and the end of the fight was based on time running out rather than the opponent being put out of fighting commision or the instructor ordering them out. I do understand that he would need to be active for whatever the time limit calls for, but if you really look at the activity that he's showing during the matches, it's really nothing effective at all. He just randomly throws punches and kicks, and it seems like he's hoping that something will land.


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Just a couple of things.
> 
> Someone mentioned things on the vid looking "ghetto" to them. Not 100% sure what they meant, but I thought I'd just point out that when it comes to fighting arts, "ghetto" is sometimes the way to go: kajukenbo came from what was essentially a ghetto. Back in the day, Fred Hamilton's dojo in Harlem, while mostly straight up shotokan, produced some good fighters. Miyama ryu was created in what some would call a ghetto. What I'm trying to say is that when it comes to _applying_ a martial art, an environment like a ghetto, where people are more likely to have to use their skills in self-defense, becomes an excellent laboratory for development of martial skills.
> 
> ...


 
To me, this doesn't look as brutal. I think because we can clearly tell what the rules are, and when a fight stops/starts. He also looks like he knows exactly what he's doing, and is using the most effective techniques to end the fights with. He's not trying to slug it out, like the guy in the video I posted was. He's being methodical in his attacks. None of these fights are lasting longer than a few secs to a minute. He's using his skill to end the fights quickly with as little effort on his part as possible. 

I kind of wish we did this, watching it. I see this video in a completely different light than the one I posted. This guy knows his stuff, and even when winded and sloppy.. it still looks like he is careful gauging what to do next and not just trying to force his way through.


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## elder999 (Dec 16, 2008)

Sylo said:


> To me, this doesn't look as brutal. I think because we can clearly tell what the rules are, and when a fight stops/starts. He also looks like he knows exactly what he's doing, and is using the most effective techniques to end the fights with. He's not trying to slug it out, like the guy in the video I posted was. He's being methodical in his attacks. None of these fights are lasting longer than a few secs to a minute. He's using his skill to end the fights quickly with as little effort on his part as possible. .


 
Yeah, but  you have to keep in mind that in '86, when that took place, he was 4th dan, with 13 years of training, and a couple of world championships-as I said, _*peerless*_.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 16, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, but you have to keep in mind that in '86, when that took place, he was 4th dan, with 13 years of training, and a couple of world championships-as I said, _*peerless*_.


 
Watch his opponents as well.  None of them looked that bad...it was obvious that he clearly was better than the rest of them, but if you watch his opponents, you can get an idea of how someone of more "ordinary" status and rank would perform....and it still looks better than the original video did, IMO.


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> In terms of the "ghetto" reference, I tend to agree with you. If you need to augment your style of fighting to fit your surroundings, then by all means, apply what you know and adjust. The problem is that none of the students adjusted their method of attack and defense. If something didn't work, they just continued to throw the attack until it eventually did work...it wasn't just the person testing, but each opponent did this as well...that's what worries me about what is being taught.
> 
> But that is not what happened in that video. The guy looked fairly fresh in the first fight shown, and it gets to be pretty apparent when he's at the end of the matches. Given what's shown, I'm not going to assume that he was tired or exhausted enough to warrant the brawling that was done.
> 
> ...


 

On this note. Another put off of this school.. just purely going off this video with no other evidence. Clearly in the Last video, we saw defined rules and regulations for each fight. The fights were clearly "ended". In my video, the rules didn't to be clear and it seemed as if the teacher was sending in the other fighters at his own discretion vs. a time limit or a "fight ending" move.


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## elder999 (Dec 16, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Watch his opponents as well. None of them looked that bad...it was obvious that he clearly was better than the rest of them, but if you watch his opponents, you can get an idea of how someone of more "ordinary" status and rank would perform.


 
Well, yeah-it was in Japan. A lot easier to assemble 100 dan grade men, just to begin with, and, like it or not, the training standard was generally higher there than what you'er going to find in your run of the mill basement dojo in the U.S.



BrandonLucas said:


> ...and it still looks better than the original video did, IMO.


 
I agree, and that wouldn't be all that hard anyway :lol:. There's no comparison-nor was one intended.  It was just to demonstrate that what's shown in the OP isn't all that brutal at all-and, believe me Sylo, that 100 man kumite was fairly brutal. If you look closely, somewhere around bout #48-54, Matsui sensei takes several really hard punches to the body, and his physical  reaction is visible....


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Well, yeah-it was in Japan. A lot easier to assemble 100 dan grade men, just to begin with, and, like it or not, the training standard was generally higher there than what you'er going to find in your run of the mill basement dojo in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, and that wouldn't be all that hard anyway :lol:. There's no comparison-nor was one intended. It was just to demonstrate that what's shown in the OP isn't all that brutal at all-and, believe me Sylo, that 100 man kumite was fairly brutal. If you look closely, somewhere around bout #48-54, Matsui sensei takes several really hard punches to the body, and his physical reaction is visible....


 

Body punches always LOOK less brutal than punches directly to the face.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 16, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Well, yeah-it was in Japan. A lot easier to assemble 100 dan grade men, just to begin with, and, like it or not, the training standard was generally higher there than what you'er going to find in your run of the mill basement dojo in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, and that wouldn't be all that hard anyway :lol:. There's no comparison-nor was one intended. It was just to demonstrate that what's shown in the OP isn't all that brutal at all-and, believe me Sylo, that 100 man kumite was fairly brutal. If you look closely, somewhere around bout #48-54, Matsui sensei takes several really hard punches to the body, and his physical reaction is visible....


 
In terms of brutality, I think the main difference is that the video you posted has clear intentions of the techniques.  In other words, each time a punch or kick is thrown, it has purpose and direction.  The power with which the techniques were delivered with appropriate force...i.e., if the punch or kick was meant to lead to another technique, the force that the puch or kick was thrown with wouldn't prohibit another technique to follow, or for the direction of the fighter to change, if need be.

In the orginal video, the puches and kicks were thrown at random, with the sole intention of having KO power.  There was no action/reaction, only random puches and kicks being thrown at what appears to be full force or something close to full force.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2008)

You do realise it never said he passed?


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## Sylo (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> You do realise it never said he passed?




Your right it doesn't.

For all we know this could just be a bunch of guys who decided to order a few karate gi's from century.. and battle it out in someone's basement for the heck of it.

But its fun to speculate, and it gives myself and BrandonLucas something to do at work besides work (we work at the same company, go to the same TKD school, and Play in the same band together) I think we need to stop hanging out.. its getting weird.. lol


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 16, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Just a couple of things.
> 
> Someone mentioned things on the vid looking "ghetto" to them. Not 100% sure what they meant, but I thought I'd just point out that when it comes to fighting arts, "ghetto" is sometimes the way to go: kajukenbo came from what was essentially a ghetto. Back in the  day, Fred Hamilton's dojo in Harlem, while mostly straight up shotokan, produced some good fighters. Miyama ryu was created in what some would call a ghetto...



Fred Hamilton's name rings a bell. I found this (http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/fred-hamilton.htm), but I seem to recall his dojo being featured in a documentary about martial arts that was made in the seventies.



> As far as the content of the vid, well, yes, it looks sloppy, but we have no real context: no idea of what "rules" there were, if any, no idea of how long it had been going on, only that it was part of a test...


That would be nice to know. We only saw him do one kata and a little kihon kumite, which is not to say he didn't do more. If his test only lasted the duration of the video, well, I've seen rank handed out for less. It was intense, and his job was to get through it.



> I looked just as sloppy after the 5th or 6th man. I'm dead certain I looked just as sloppy after the 10th or 11th. :lol:


LOL. I was flat on the mats after fighting six people in varying combinations, and my sensei told the others to remove my pads for me because I was out of it. I was calling out, "Shins, shins...," asking someone to take off my shin pads, not knowing this had already been done. (Yes, pads everywhere -- complete and total wuss.) Then sensei gave me whiff of smelling salts.

I've been trained with the sense that the dan grading breaks the student down. Crisp technique begins to fall away, and the candidate is working with whatever is left, whether's s/he doing kumite, kata, or whatever. It goes as far as the candidate can go. All the younger, stronger men that I've seen grade were brought down to that last raw nerve -- the only difference being it took longer to do it with them than it did with me. 

Conversely, I've also seen Aikido dan gradings where it takes twenty minutes, but absolutely everything gets thrown at the candidate in that time, and the result has to be seamless. It's a different groove. Here's six minutes of my Hapkido teacher's Aikido sandan: 



 Everything but the kitchen sink thrown at him in a short period time. This sort of testing, done really well, is just as evocative the student's passion and skill.



> As far as "brutality" goes, I'll offer the following:
> 
> ... Shokei Matsui, sensei, While his form is, as far as I'm concerned, peerless, you'll see that as time goes on, his "sloppiness" becomes apparent, even to a layman, I would think.
> 
> Shokei Matsui 100 man kumite


This is astonishing. This is kumite that I get really excited watching. You do see Matsui faltering slightly under the weight of this task. I spotted one part where he looked like he couldn't lift his own arms. His above-the-belt kicking is really three kicks that I saw: leading round, spinning hook, and a few spinning side-kicks. That's the whole repetoire, and that's makes this masterful to me -- every every single one of those kick ans strikes is money. "Peerless" is the word for it.

Thanks for sharing that. This is really humbling to watch.

PS: Never fought fifty guys in my life.


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## SenseiBear (Dec 16, 2008)

Does what happen?  sparring during a test?  The testing candidate was a little uncontrolled fighting the purple belts, so I was glad the black belts gave him a little bit back - 

But did not look that extreme for mid contact sparring...

The form pieces at the beginning looked like a chunk out of Seiuchin Kata...


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 17, 2008)

nothing out of the ordinary to me, except maybe a lack of self control for being a black belt:asian:


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> You do realise it never said he passed?


 
That's a fair observation as well.  The only problem with this is that the other blackbelts that sparred him towards the end fought in the same manner as he did.

What I'm trying to get at here is that these people appear to be taught to fight the same way as the person testing is fighting, from the first fight to the last.  

And, he may very well be tired when the sparring starts, and we're not able to see what he had to go through before he started the sparring portion, other than doing 1 form.  But, he looked pretty fresh to me when he started on his first opponent.  His uniform was neat and in place, he didn't appear to be sweating that much, and looked like he had enough stamina to last.

I can understand losing technique and steam the further down the road you get against that many opponents.  But watch him against his first opponent...a white belt.  Same wild punches are thrown there as they were against the last blackbelt in the last fight.  No fatigue is evident in the first fight, but is very evident in the last...however, the way the punches and kicks are thrown do not vary.

But watch the other blackbelts toward the end of the video.  They fight the same way.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2008)

WARNING HARDCORE BIKERS FIGHT, BAD LANGUAGE ON SCREEN AND IN MUSIC.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO10tE6l9lw


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> WARNING HARDCORE BIKERS FIGHT, BAD LANGUAGE ON SCREEN AND IN MUSIC.
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO10tE6l9lw


 
I tried to hit the thanks button twice on that one...perfect post.


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## Sylo (Dec 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> WARNING HARDCORE BIKERS FIGHT, BAD LANGUAGE ON SCREEN AND IN MUSIC.
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO10tE6l9lw


 

So the guys in the video I posted are also competitive bicycle riders?

Man.. they are some multitalented gents


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2008)

Sylo said:


> So the guys in the video I posted are also competitive bicycle riders?
> 
> Man.. they are some multitalented gents


 

You can't tell with the gi bottoms though that they shave their legs!

Good fight though lol! I like the woman and the girl watching in the background lol! I watch the Tour de France and those guys are feisty to say the least. Almost as bad as jockeys! My daughter does MA and is a jockey, she says there's more fights betwwen jockeys than she sees anywhere else, if they think someone has impeded them they go at it fists flying. When they are actually riding in a race, lots of elbow strikes!


A freind of mine sent me the link for the bikers fighting, I though I was going to see big hairy Hells Angels lol!


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I tried to hit the thanks button twice on that one...perfect post.


 

Do you two do any actual work?


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## Sylo (Dec 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Do you two do any actual work?


 

Nope. not at all.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2008)

Sylo said:


> Nope. not at all.


 

I wanna work with you guys!


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Do you two do any actual work?


 
I would totally rep you if I could...

I'm working as I type this, actually.  Once you learn to multitask, it makes work actually seem fun.


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## Guardian (Dec 20, 2008)

Coming in late on this one.  I enjoyed that.


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