# Shotokan and Tang Soo Do



## Makalakumu

I'm starting this thread to discuss the similarities and differences in the two arts.  For those of you who have trained in both or have knowledge of both, please post!


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## oldnewbie

Let me add that I am curious as well.
 I train(ed) in Shotokan, but my instructor passed away in November. I have dabbled in Hapkido for a couple of months, and am thinking about Tang Soo Do.

 Any help would be appreciated.


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## Yossarian75

The main differences I have noticed are use of the hip, muscle tension and emphasis on kicks. Take the low block for example, in TSD you turn the hip back when you chamber the hands and turn into the block, in Shotokan its the other way round. Knife hands come from the hip in TSD, a lot more kicks than Shotokan. 

The forms are essentially the same with some differences. Techniques are performed more relaxed in TSD. Ive trained with several TSD people who came from a Shotokan background and they adapted very quickly and really enjoyed it, give it a go and see.


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## oldnewbie

Thanks for the infomation.


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## tsdclaflin

I'm no shotokan pro, but I started my marital arts training with 8 months of shotokan, and now I have a black belt in Tang Soo Do.

In both arts, the key to power was said to be in the hips.  Interestingly enough, sometimes they generate power from the hips in opposite ways.  As an advanced gup, I "learned" how to use my hips like I did as a white belt in shotokan.

Forms are similar.  Shotokan emphasized deep strong stances and very strong techniques.  TSD has emphasized repetitive fast strikes.


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## Pale Rider

There are of course similiarities and there are differences.  As stated the biggest differences are in the hip movements, but there are more.  If you pay close attention to the techniques also being used (i.e. kicks... you will see that TSD uses more hip movement and rotation whereas Shotokan kicks mainly for snap and speed.  Hands - TSD  utilizes the hip rotations here again more so then Shotokan.)

If TSD utilizes more hip rotations then Shotokan then does that make TSD better? - No, not necessarily. Shotokan because it uses snap and speed as it's primary weapon - a typical Shotokan martial artist can hit faster then a typical TSD, it just wouldn't have the power.  Power comes from torque - the yin/yang must be used. All three axis must be applied in order to accumulate full power, and that is something that Shotokan doesn't use.

So do we say that a TSD martial artist can beat a Shotokan martial artist?  NO!  The Shotokan martial artist will more then likely land a technique faster then a TSD by the speed and snap of their technique, and could win the battle.

The forms are almost identical again, but the TSD stands "more upright" then the Shotokan martial artist who uses more of lower stances. 

The techniques in the forms are almost identical except that the Shotokan's techniques are closer to the body and uses more linear motion to their technique (the fastest way between two points is a straight line theory), whereas TSD uses the circular theory (although it may be shorter to go straight, the momentum accumulated by the circle creates torque).

I hope that this helps some...

TS!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

I started training with Sensei James V. Morrone, Jr. in Dearborn Michigan in 1974. At that time Sensei Morrone was a Ni-Dan (2nd dan) in Shotokan. His instructor is Sensei Hidetaka Nishiama, President of the JKA-USA. 

I am at this time a senior student to Grand Master Chung Il Kim in Tang Soo Do. I have continued to train with Sensei Morrone to this day. What I have seen by studying both Shotokan and Tang Soo Do over the last 30 years is that both systems use both linier and circular techniques. The hip rotation in the hand technique is practically identical; wile the hip usage in the kicking technique is very different.

The primary differences in these to similar systems are in the application of the individual techniques, and in the hyung/kata. 



*Lets go back in history for this one*



Funakoshi was a student to Itosu. He went to Japan and over a period of time started the Shotokan. Using his pen name Shoto and the prefix kan for school.

In 1922 Funakoshi published his book, Karate-Jutsu. Hwang Kee found a copy of this book in the library in the train station in Korea, where he was working. Hwang was I believe 20 or 21 at the time. In this book, Funakoshi showed all of the kata that Hwang used to incorporate Tang Soo Do. Hwang didnt learn these Hyung/Kata in China as has been stated and taken as gospel since 1947.

If Hwang had learned these hyung/kata directly from an instructor (from Okinawa) he would have had a much deeper understanding of Bunkai, Henka and Oyo. It has been my experience with EVERY Tang Soo Do practitioner that hasnt been exposed to the Japanese or Okinawan training, that they have a shallow understanding or the hyung/kata. 

*(this has been one of the reasons that so many practitioners view Hyung/Kata training as simply a vehicle to use to get to the next rank. Hyung/Kata are the bedrock of EVERY Karate system. They are the indentification of the system)*​ 
In the past, when I have made this statement, it has upset many Tang Soo Do practitioners. Then when we have gotten together to train, and they see what the differences are, they understand what I am discussing, and why.

I am not the only Tang Soo Do practitioner that has come to this understanding. There are many of us out here that have taken the time to study and develop a deep understanding of the Bunkai, Henka and Oyo.

I began training with Kaiden-Shihan Garner Train, from Clio, Michigan about 8 years ago in Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu. This system, again uses the same kata, but the Bunkai, Henka and Oyo go to a deeper understanding of the Kyusho and Tuite in the Bunkai. 

*It seems that the more I learn, the more I realize there is out there that I still dont know. This is one of the great things about training in martial arts... you can go on forever, and with an open mind, never come to the end of your quest for knowledge!!!*

When I see a posting that lays claim that a practitioner from one system will win over a practitioner from another system I have to say that this is not a good statement to make. Every instructor, regardless of system or organization brings unique strengths to the table, as do each student. It is the competitor that has put in the most effort in preparation, with the highest level of understanding and ability to use that which he/she has developed that will prevail, regardless of system or organization affiliation.

I have seen great Shotokan Senseis, I have seen Shotokan Senseis that should not be teaching anyone anything I have seen Tang Soo Do Sa Bom Nim of the same You have to take each on a case by case basis.

Then you have to understand that chemistry between one instructor and a given student may not be the same between that same instructor and a different student.

I was in a Tae Kwon Do school in West Bloomfield, Michigan several years ago and heard the instructor (a 2nd dan) make a negative statement about Grand Master Willie Adams. G.M. Adams is one of the finest Isshinryu practitioners, world wide. I asked him why he would make such a statement about such a phenomenal practitioner. He had heard it from a new student of his that had trained in G.M. Adams school for one month I guess that she had a different experience then the thousands of students that have trained with him (my self included) over the years. I cautioned him not to repeat such frivolous statements. 

*This posting is getting long-winded (its just my A.D.D. kicking in).*



I will close with:

Dont look at the system, dont look at the organization, get to know the instructor. Find out by watching his/her students. 

1) Do they look like they know what they are doing?

2) Do they look like they are simply moving along in a mindless fashion?

3) Does the instructor have the ability to communicate with EVERYONE?

4) Can he/she communicate with YOU?

These are just a couple of questions to find the answers to

If anyone would like to discuss these issues further, please contact me directly

Here is my contact information:

Master Jay S. Penfil
7th Degree Black Belt
Tang Soo Do

International Association of Korean Martial Arts
Grand Master Chung Il Kim-President (MDK Pin #475)
3250 West Big Beaver Rd., Suite 110
Troy, MI 48084

jaypenfil@sbcglobal.net
248-614-3934, ext. 209-office
248-561-5700-cell

Ill look forward to hearing from you soon,


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## Jonathan Randall

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I'm starting this thread to discuss the similarities and differences in the two arts. For those of you who have trained in both or have knowledge of both, please post!


I can only speak of the similiarities and differences of the two arts based upon my experience with two schools - an unafilliated Shotokan Dojo and a Federation TSD Dojang. In my experience, TSD had more of an emphasis on the waist twist as well as a greater emphasis on kicking in even the lower gups. I would have to say, however, that TSD and Shotokan have more in common than TSD and most TKD, IMHO.


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## Pale Rider

I agree 100%.  That is exactly what I stated above.  Great post


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Just curious.. does Tang Soo Do have throwing and joint locking? If yes, were they imported from Hapkido or are they native to Tang Soo Do as taught by Mr. Hwang Kee?

I learned Goju-ryu and Wado-ryu Karate, and those two Karate styles has many throwing techniques (but from different sources, Goju-ryu took its throws from Kata applications, Wado-ryu took its throws from Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu).


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## mtabone

Hello,

Tang Soo Do naturaly has joint locks, grappling, and throws. Though I am sure over the years more and more has been added from various places. 

I hope this helps. 

TANG SOO!

Michael Tabone


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## jujutsu_indonesia

mtabone said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Tang Soo Do naturaly has joint locks, grappling, and throws. Though I am sure over the years more and more has been added from various places.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> TANG SOO!
> 
> Michael Tabone


Thank you for the information. May I know at which belt ranks these techniques will be taught? Are they looks like those of Judo or more like Chinese Qinna-Shou? Any pictures?


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## mtabone

Hello jujutsu_indonesia,



Now a little on myself before I answer this question. I trained in Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan from 1992 to 1995 then Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan from 1995 to present (and of course, beyond). In both these styles of the same system throws, grappling, and joint locks where taught. We started learning joint locks in the form of defense against being grabbed at about the 6-9 month mark. It then develops in this way through hand grabs of all kinds to include the arm bars, etc, and such to more and more grappling. As time marches on, the teaching of the throws are then taught. The joint locks are more inline with that of Jujitsu then most anything, and the throws are mostly like Aikido throws. We learn proper falling, rolling, etc. From the time you start learning the joint locks you are introduced to more and more of the grappling and throws, but seeing both of those are not required material on tests, it is not necessarily something that has a set pace to be learned. 

Since the throws are not required material, some people dont learn it, and some people dont necessarily teach it, or know they are teaching it. But, it is there for anyone who wishes to learn and practice it.


I hope this helps.

TANG SOO!!!


Michael Tabone


p.s.  sorry no pics that I can find yet to better illustrate my point.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

mtabone said:
			
		

> Hello jujutsu_indonesia,
> 
> 
> 
> Now a little on myself before I answer this question. I trained in Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan from 1992 to 1995 then Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan from 1995 to present (and of course, beyond). In both these styles of the same system throws, grappling, and joint locks where taught. We started learning joint locks in the form of defense against being grabbed at about the 6-9 month mark. It then develops in this way through hand grabs of all kinds to include the arm bars, etc, and such to more and more grappling. As time marches on, the teaching of the throws are then taught. The joint locks are more inline with that of Jujitsu then most anything, and the throws are mostly like Aikido throws. We learn proper falling, rolling, etc. From the time you start learning the joint locks you are introduced to more and more of the grappling and throws, but seeing both of those are not required material on tests, it is not necessarily something that has a set pace to be learned.
> 
> Since the throws are not required material, some people dont learn it, and some people dont necessarily teach it, or know they are teaching it. But, it is there for anyone who wishes to learn and practice it.
> 
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> TANG SOO!!!
> 
> 
> Michael Tabone
> 
> 
> p.s.  sorry no pics that I can find yet to better illustrate my point.


Thank you Mr. Tabone for your information. It's good to know that the traditional Tang Soo Do is a complete martial art (striking and grappling/throwing), and I heard you have Bo-Jutsu techniques too? Is this true?

In terms of percentage, how much percentage of Tang Soo Do came from Japan? I assume the throws and grappling came from Japanese arts, while the strikes and kicks came from Korean and Chinese arts, and the forms from Okinawan arts... am I correct?


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## Makalakumu

Its not so easy to break down the art like that.  Our forms are okinawan, but we also have other forms that we practice.  The yuk ro and chil sung series, those came from Hwang Kee and were heavily influenced by his training in china and by some old Korean texts on martial arts.  

Alot of our kicks and strikes are seen in many other arts and they way we put them together depends on the lineage of the teacher...for instance, my teacher is heavily influenced by Okinawan-te so our Tang Soo Do has more of that kind of flavor.  I've seen other teachers present a more Japanese approach that is reminiscent of Shotokan.

Our throws and locks mimic some japanese systems.  Some flavors of Tang Soo Do have lists that remind one of Yawara.  Other systems practice the tuite in the okinawan forms.  Tang Soo Do is very fluid and interesting.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

If that's the case, then Tang Soo Do and one of the arts I practice (Wado-ryu) has some similarities  Both TSD and Wado-ryu are influenced by Shotokan, and yet uses original Okinawan names. And both are influenced by Yawara (Jujutsu).


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## Andy Cap

I used to get hung up on this subject. Tang Soo Do is Shotokan, etc.  Truth is that we never ask where Shotokan came from.  Because where Shotokan came from is also where Tang Soo Do came from.  And where did the style or concepts that Shotokan was based on come from?  

 If you are a Tang Soo Do practitioner, and have been doing so for a good amount of time - I would imagine you have read Hwang Kee's first book.  

 In Hwang Kee's first book he describes the term "Ryu Pa" - water flows down divided.
 Essentially what Hwang Kee states is that children adopt traits of both of their parents.  If mother and father joined together form a common thread, when they pass and the children join with their wife or husband, the thread is altered because of the new addition.

 So, I would imagine that if you could sit down with Hwang Kee and ask him if the arts are similar or if Tang Soo Do came from Shotokan - he would probably say "Ryu Pa" and smile.


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## Makalakumu

Water flowing down divided, comes from a source.  Hwang Kee believed that knowing the source was important, that is why he included all of the history in his book.


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## Andy Cap

Exactly, and is Shotokan the main source for Tang Soo Do?  No.  It does play a significant role no doubt there.  However, what/where Tang Soo Do or Soo Bahk Do or Tae Kwon Do are today, is not where they were yesterday.  Evolution occurs everywhere, including martial arts.


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## Master Dave

Greetings everyone,
I cross trained in Shotokan for 20 years in Detroit under the late Master Edwards and Master Bell, however we were always told the art is karate-do and shoto was Funakoshi's pen name and that kan was hall, therefore shoto's hall. So we called it karate - do. When I met Master Bell I was a dan in Tang Soo Do, much younger and extremely flexible, and with a bit of a chip on my shoulder. All that soon changed. My first experience in Karate -Do came as an invitation to train at Master Bell's home. Along with running the old Detroit dojo he had a dojo in the basement of his home. The session began at 11:00pm and lasted until around 3:00am. The physical training was similar to how we trained in Tang Soo Do back in the early years... late 1960s and early 1970s, before we found out that everything we do is bad for us...lol, but yet a bit more intense. We would walk in the front stance while carrying our partner on our shoulders. We kicked from the squat position. There were no fancy high kicks just front kick, back kick, side kick, and round kick. We did squat jumps up and down the floor. The katas / hyungs were so close with the exception of the speed in performance. The Heian Kata's seemed to be moving at a faster pace up the middle with a short burst or exsplosion of technique. We did one and three step engagements similar to our Ill Soo Shick and Sam Soo Shick. Now I was in trouble for I haden't trained in this manner...no stepping back challenging from a ha dan makee (low Block) and waiting for you to kiap...you were attacked at random with no warning and had to immediately counter. in three step engagement you were attacked from three different directions not a straight line. To say the least I was embarrassed and in trouble. I was now in unfamilar territority and was clueless. Oh before I forget, in the start of the class all knelt down first on one knee then on both in order, I sat cross legged boy did I get some stares lol. Thought I'd share that with you. I then watched in amazement as they did kumite not kata with weapons, tonfa against sai, sai against staff, nunchaku against nunchaku, I didnt know to be scared or to want to jump in there! Then came kumite, I thought I would fair well, I thought wrong! Low round kicks to the back of my legs, back fist to the head and face, low kicks to the thighs, elbows, knees, everything we were ever told we could not do in Tang Soo Do class we did in karate - do.... very old school. All I knew to do was to cover as best I could. I formed a lasting friendship and relationship to this day with Master Robert (bobby) bell. and continued to train in karate-do with him until a few years ago. We became best of friends. I watched his children grow up and he mine. His son Chris now heads the Tornado School of Karate in Detroit. They were our guest a few weeks ago. Chris took over class at my dojang while Bobby and I sat there sharing stories of the old days. I believe the two arts compliment each other, Hwang kee knew this I believe, with our dynamic kicking and speed mixed with karate-Do's powerful stances and strikes this was a great combination. Tang Soo Do is a living art It's my belief we should learn as much as possible like the blue of the ocean the water must continue to flow, and not become stagnant. Incorporate from other systems such as shotokan (karate-do) jujitsu, hapkido, learn weapons, learn grappling and ground fighting, bunkai and pressure points....Make it your Tang Soo Do!


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## Makalakumu

Master Dave said:
			
		

> Greetings everyone,
> I cross trained in Shotokan for 20 years in Detroit under the late Master Edwards and Master Bell, however we were always told the art is karate-do and shoto was Funakoshi's pen name and that kan was hall, therefore shoto's hall. So we called it karate - do. When I met Master Bell I was a dan in Tang Soo Do, much younger and extremely flexible, and with a bit of a chip on my shoulder. All that soon changed. My first experience in Karate -Do came as an invitation to train at Master Bell's home. Along with running the old Detroit dojo he had a dojo in the basement of his home. The session began at 11:00pm and lasted until around 3:00am. The physical training was similar to how we trained in Tang Soo Do back in the early years... late 1960s and early 1970s, before we found out that everything we do is bad for us...lol, but yet a bit more intense. We would walk in the front stance while carrying our partner on our shoulders. We kicked from the squat position. There were no fancy high kicks just front kick, back kick, side kick, and round kick. We did squat jumps up and down the floor. The katas / hyungs were so close with the exception of the speed in performance. The Heian Kata's seemed to be moving at a faster pace up the middle with a short burst or exsplosion of technique. We did one and three step engagements similar to our Ill Soo Shick and Sam Soo Shick. Now I was in trouble for I haden't trained in this manner...no stepping back challenging from a ha dan makee (low Block) and waiting for you to kiap...you were attacked at random with no warning and had to immediately counter. in three step engagement you were attacked from three different directions not a straight line. To say the least I was embarrassed and in trouble. I was now in unfamilar territority and was clueless. Oh before I forget, in the start of the class all knelt down first on one knee then on both in order, I sat cross legged boy did I get some stares lol. Thought I'd share that with you. I then watched in amazement as they did kumite not kata with weapons, tonfa against sai, sai against staff, nunchaku against nunchaku, I didnt know to be scared or to want to jump in there! Then came kumite, I thought I would fair well, I thought wrong! Low round kicks to the back of my legs, back fist to the head and face, low kicks to the thighs, elbows, knees, everything we were ever told we could not do in Tang Soo Do class we did in karate - do.... very old school. All I knew to do was to cover as best I could. I formed a lasting friendship and relationship to this day with Master Robert (bobby) bell. and continued to train in karate-do with him until a few years ago. We became best of friends. I watched his children grow up and he mine. His son Chris now heads the Tornado School of Karate in Detroit. They were our guest a few weeks ago. Chris took over class at my dojang while Bobby and I sat there sharing stories of the old days. I believe the two arts compliment each other, Hwang kee knew this I believe, with our dynamic kicking and speed mixed with karate-Do's powerful stances and strikes this was a great combination.


The way you described Shotokan training was how my teacher described the Tang Soo Do he learned years ago.  In the subsequent years, the federations have changed many things...however, my teacher still holds to what he learned.



			
				Master Dave said:
			
		

> Tang Soo Do is a living art It's my belief we should learn as much as possible like the blue of the ocean the water must continue to flow, and not become stagnant. Incorporate from other systems such as shotokan (karate-do) jujitsu, hapkido, learn weapons, learn grappling and ground fighting, bunkai and pressure points....Make it your Tang Soo Do!


Absolutely.  This is a great bit of advice!  Thank you...

:asian:


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