# Defending yourself cold



## Jimi (Mar 2, 2006)

Opinions welcome, What do some of you think about the fact that most street attacks happen quickly and some trained skills take too much warm up or prep. EXAMPLE: Jump spinning hook kick to the head. Granted many TKD practioners may pull this off with little or no warning, but what of those who can not. Does anyone share my opinion that skills that can be done cold are more practical than ones that require much more maintenence. If your skills can not be done effectively cold so to speak you are at a disadvantage. Please do not take issue with the fact that I used TKD jump spinning kicks as an example, not taking pot shots at TKD, want opinions on responding cold to a threat. PEACE


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## evenflow1121 (Mar 2, 2006)

If you have a good teacher usually you will have a good balance of both. Not only cold techniques, but no matter how well attuned you may be, you may just encounter a situation that caught you off guard, afterall you are only human.


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## Jimi (Mar 2, 2006)

Thanks for the reply, I agree we are all human. I feel that if in a sudden situation, I am not capable of the of what I was when I was 19. My tool box of skills so to speak is simple yet trustworthy given that the dice don't roll too funny in a dangerous situation. Thanks again for the reply. Peace


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## rutherford (Mar 2, 2006)

I think that if you already have a good level of conditioning, it is important to sometimes try to defend yourself cold and experience the difference.

The "good level of conditioning" bit is important.  If you don't already have a good range of motion and strong joints you're just asking for an injury by training without a warmup.


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## Jimi (Mar 2, 2006)

Excellent input Rutherford. Thanks, I agree whole heartedly! Peace


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 2, 2006)

I am not a fan of aerial kicks in a real fight. I have always said that if you are using aerial kick you better be darn sure of your target. 

But the times I have had to use something cold I tended towards the use of Qinna and redirection (using their force against them).

I however do agree that a good level of conditioning is a good thing to have. I also agree with if you have a good teacher you should have a pretty good balance.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 2, 2006)

I try to incorporate stretching and fitness into my daily life, so that when I get to the dojo to train, I don't need to warm up. I show up and I am ready to start training. My opinion is an attacker isn't going to wait for me to stretch and get ready, so why do I need to show up and stretch and warm up.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 2, 2006)

I think anyone that initiates a fight with a jump spin kick outside of sport karate / tkd rules is in for a whopping....

That said, fight or flight hits, adrehnaline kicks in and you'll not realise you pulled something until the next morning


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## scottcatchot (Mar 2, 2006)

From My experience, In real life self defense situations people tend to fair better with what they are most comfortable with. SImple straight forward techniques usually work better for most peopel in those situations due to the whole adrenaline and gross motor skill thing. People tend to resort to what they how they train most. Case in point, I heard a story of a group of police officers who were killed during a shoot out. They found spent brass in the rookies pockets. COme to find out, the range instructer really had an issue about keeping his range clean and so he made everyone pick up their spent brass before they reloaded.


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## Jonathan Randall (Mar 2, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I think anyone that initiates a fight with a jump spin kick outside of sport karate / tkd rules is in for a whopping....
> 
> That said, fight or flight hits, adrehnaline kicks in and you'll not realise you pulled something until the next morning


 
True and true.

Also, I would suggest several mini workouts a week where you practice techniques that can be done on a rainy day, in high heels or a tuxedo and while you are recovering from the flu. In other words, simple, high probability techniques such as low-line kicks and palm strikes, hammerfists and elbow strikes.


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## Flatlander (Mar 2, 2006)

Agreed.  Its also a good idea to have some simple redirects, grabs, and intercepts that are quick and reactionary, and drill these things daily.  Work the agility regularly.  Try not to be where the street attacks are.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 2, 2006)

Hi Jimi,

I agree with your assessment of using simple techniques in a sudden attack on the street. I also think that this would happen naturally anyway, as your go into a survival mode mentality, opposed to your everyday consciousness. In that mode of thinking, it is usually straight forward and simple. Using high maintenance techniques would put you at a disadvantage if done cold. The very fact that we do them effectively only when we're already warmed up during class, and only think of not attempting them, until we are properly stretched proves this. I say train hard and keep it simple when it goes down!


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## still learning (Mar 3, 2006)

Hello, Most of us will get an " adrenline response" nature way of warming us up for (fight or flee). The hardest thing is to relax and not cloud our minds with the wrong emotions of the moment.

Breath deeply, calm your mind, try very hard to talk your way out of it? ..be ready to explode! (killer instinct). Always prepare to die and accept death...................fight like there is no tommorrw.....because the person/persons you are facing may want to destroy you.......Aloha


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## Drac (Mar 3, 2006)

scottcatchot said:
			
		

> They found spent brass in the rookies pockets. COme to find out, the range instructer really had an issue about keeping his range clean and so he made everyone pick up their spent brass before they reloaded.


 
That is a true story..Thankfully our range instructor was not that anal...


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## Jimi (Mar 3, 2006)

Thanks for all the great responses, pretty much my opinion as well. I like the fact that the opinions expressed are based on the understanding that most street self-defense situations force you to respond from almost a dead cold start. PEACE


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## Shirt Ripper (Mar 3, 2006)

scottcatchot said:
			
		

> From My experience, In real life self defense situations people tend to fair better with what they are most comfortable with.


My forehead=your nose.  Every "altercation" I have found myself in has turned into a close range push-pull type scuffle.  Seems to be the norm as well.  Head strikes and elbow because, although, I have a basic understanding of punching I have no technical practice and one or two bad experiences.

I practice/study Aikido.  My experience in it is too limited to say whether or nor I could/would utilize any specific techniques but perhaps some of the ideas...


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## Tony (Mar 4, 2006)

If i had to defend myself on the spur of the moment without having time to use flashy kicks, i would either run or if i had no choice use dirty tactics like a kick to the groin which doesn't need to be a high kick. I have just started Wing chun to supplement my kung fu training and there is hardly much of a warm up, just going through sil lim tao and some stepping and punching.

There are many things you can do without needed to warm up, such as using your hands to strike or grab vital areas. An attacker off the street doesn't need to warm up to take a swing at you but obviously using high jump spinning kicks are not a good idea.  Besides you may be wearing awkward clothing that doesn't allow you to use your high kicks so its important you can be effective with hand strikes, elbows and even throws when need be but try never to go to go to the ground. I Would avoid that at all costs and if i were my training would help me but then again its always hard to knwo what i would do in that situation. 

I think its always best to run and if you do get cornered, that run should have warmed you up a little, but make sure it doesn't wear you out.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> Opinions welcome, What do some of you think about the fact that most street attacks happen quickly and some trained skills take too much warm up or prep. EXAMPLE: Jump spinning hook kick to the head. Granted many TKD practioners may pull this off with little or no warning, but what of those who can not. Does anyone share my opinion that skills that can be done cold are more practical than ones that require much more maintenence. If your skills can not be done effectively cold so to speak you are at a disadvantage. Please do not take issue with the fact that I used TKD jump spinning kicks as an example, not taking pot shots at TKD, want opinions on responding cold to a threat. PEACE


 
Great thread!  This is one of the reasons why I try to gear my training to keep everything simple.  The more elaborate you get, ie: a spinning/jumping kick, kicking high, etc., the more you risk not being able to pull the move off.  Of course, everyone is different, so someone my just naturally be flexable, spend more time working on flexability, etc., so of course, it may be easier for them.

Mike


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## Southwell (Mar 4, 2006)

Good thread, I like to stretch in the morning and evening to keep loose but as for kicking high in a street fight, I would stick to low kicks and get the job done fast.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 4, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply, I agree we are all human. I feel that if in a sudden situation, I am not capable of the of what I was when I was 19. My tool box of skills so to speak is simple yet trustworthy given that the dice don't roll too funny in a dangerous situation. Thanks again for the reply. Peace




Pesonally I would rather be in a conflict with a 19 year old then with a 45 year old. The 19 year old will bluster, and also use strength. The 45 year old will want to hurt you know and get it over with ASAP. 

As to cold, if you are aware of possible situations then you will not be completely cold. 

If it is 100% surprise and you are cold then you need use simple defense and create the room and time to move.


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## CuongNhuka (Mar 4, 2006)

Mmm I have had many similar thought waves. I go to a school with a gang problem the size of Canada (Im Canadian, so dont start). So Ive run myself through many drills to help me out, gone through the process of figuring out every possible place I might be attacked (I dont like gangsters to much), and made it clear to every one I will not hit unless *I KNOW YOU WILL REGRET IT, AND I WILL NOT. *So here is my advice, from personal experience, a research. 

When you fight hit with hands to the upper body (belt and up, but be realistic)
You can kick, but know when and were to kick. Best places are the groin (resort), inner thigh (be careful, not always a viable target), knees (resort, they could break), and thats really about it for the most part.
Knees, inner thigh sometimes, groin (resort), and abdomen. If you pull your opponent down, you could smash their face with your knee. A common tactic of styles from Southeast Asia, especially Thai.
Elbows to the side of the face. If you end up on the ground, you could go for the groin (resort)
Grappling can be good. Its mostly a matter of the kind of grappling. Low throws can be more realistic then high throws; takedowns can be more realistic then low throws. But he opposite could just as easily be true. If you are trying to restrain a mild threat, a take down and pin would be best. A high threat (say someones trying to kill you or someone else) a high, well executed, throw followed by either a painful lock, or break would be best.
Weapons, *ABSOLUTLY, FINAL, NO OTHER CHOICE, LAST RESORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *And then when you do, use no mercy, no compassion. Go in to kill, for there is no alternative. If you feel it is time to even hold one, then your opponent is of the intent to kill you, and feels he must, and will with no compassion. So now it is time for you to kill him. Unless you truly feel safe letting someone who wants to destroy you, walk away.
Words: best 
Use self-protection first. Try to avoid the situation all together. Go in a group, do your best to avoid having have to use self-defense. For this you must find out what self-protection means. I got off topic, but I feel it is necessary to say. 
Maybe sometime I should write down all my research onto one paper and see about getting it published. Say in black belt magazine, or a related one.

Sweet Bright Bless Your Blade,

John


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## beau_safken (Mar 5, 2006)

Ahh there are a lot of times I really like the training I got in Silat..this is one of them.  The entire system revolves around not being ready for an attack.  Just react.  Keep your kicks low and compact, get a hold of the guys head as soon as possible and control the weapon arm.  Not in that order...but point being just do something.  Dont worry about "Oh hell ya, lets do one of those flying bicycle kicks I did in class or something"  F that, just break that attacker in any way you can.  If you need to be ugly and not to any kata...who the F cares.  In a fight or flight situtation, you choose.  But if you choose to fight...you must do everything in your power to not only attack 110% but use enough force to ensure that person doesnt get a second attack when you walk away.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 6, 2006)

Awareness is the key here.  Virtually every self-defense situation has several indicators leading up to it.  Paying attention to your surroundings, to the people near you, to your own intuition will mean you never go into a situation 'cold'.  You won't have time to stretch and do a few jumping jacks, but you'll be ready to throw down.

Or better yet, to leave the area as quickly as possible.

For more on the subject, I recommend 'The Gift of Fear' by Gavin DeBecker.  He goes into detail on the most common 'pre-incident indicators' that should key you into hyperawareness.

Peace & Strength,

Jason Brick


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## Jimi (Mar 6, 2006)

I love the thoughtfull responses.  I always believed that no matter the prep. in training there is "almost" no chance to ready yourself on the street, especially when most attackers in the street are trying to take you out without you putting up a fight. I am sure Police records prove that attackers on the street can be very cunning and will give you no quarter. Thanks for the insights. PEACE


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## INDYFIGHTER (Mar 6, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I think anyone that initiates a fight with a jump spin kick outside of sport karate / tkd rules is in for a whopping....
> 
> That said, fight or flight hits, adrehnaline kicks in and you'll not realise you pulled something until the next morning


 
I agree with that totally!  You're not going to feel any pain when you're in the heat of battle.  The next day will be a different story!


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## Rick Wade (Mar 6, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> Opinions welcome, What do some of you think about the fact that most street attacks happen quickly and some trained skills take too much warm up or prep. EXAMPLE: Jump spinning hook kick to the head. Granted many TKD practioners may pull this off with little or no warning, but what of those who can not. Does anyone share my opinion that skills that can be done cold are more practical than ones that require much more maintenence. If your skills can not be done effectively cold so to speak you are at a disadvantage. Please do not take issue with the fact that I used TKD jump spinning kicks as an example, not taking pot shots at TKD, want opinions on responding cold to a threat. PEACE


 
The chances of me pulling off a jump spinning anything are Zero in the heat of battle.  This very question is why we do very little warm up before we start class.

V/R

Rick


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## Mr.Rooster (Mar 6, 2006)

With practice as often as possible and daily stretching you as an individual should find what you can that will work for you in instantaneous combat scenario's.  Of course, this is a very personal mission and we all ought to investigate our personal limitations and work on them.


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## wynnema (May 4, 2006)

if you want to be able to kick at your full height and with power, you need to do dynamic stretching twice a day, everyday.

This DVD is very good at showing you how to have high kicks without warming up.  Is from the Tom Kurz camp.

http://www.stadion.com/power.html


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## fireman00 (May 4, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> Opinions welcome, What do some of you think about the fact that most street attacks happen quickly and some trained skills take too much warm up or prep. EXAMPLE: Jump spinning hook kick to the head. Granted many TKD practioners may pull this off with little or no warning, but what of those who can not. Does anyone share my opinion that skills that can be done cold are more practical than ones that require much more maintenence. If your skills can not be done effectively cold so to speak you are at a disadvantage. Please do not take issue with the fact that I used TKD jump spinning kicks as an example, not taking pot shots at TKD, want opinions on responding cold to a threat. PEACE


 
No offense, but the most direct shot would be best - push kick to the diaphram, side kick to the knee, snap kick to the groin or knee to the ribs, elbow strike to the mouth ; with the appropriate number of strikes afterwards to ensure that the opponent realizes he/ she should move on.  These can all be done "cold" and would be most effective at stopping an opponent.

My first instructor always told us - go for what works not what looks good.


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## green meanie (May 4, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I think anyone that initiates a fight with a jump spin kick outside of sport karate / tkd rules is in for a whopping....
> 
> That said, fight or flight hits, adrehnaline kicks in and you'll not realise you pulled something until the next morning


 
Agreed!!!


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## still learning (May 4, 2006)

Hello, The adrenline response will heat/warm your body for a fight or flee response, you body will also numb it self from hits. Won't hurt as much till it is over.

In a real fight ..think...fight back ...keep it simple and do not get fancy. Things will happen very fast (it will seem like slow motion many times).

Focus on your tarkets you want to hit or destroy. Think about how 
to end this quickly. Go for the "eyes"..take their ability to see. (rake them)

Keeping moving around, don't stand there and exchange punches....use anything around you for weapons...no such thing as a fair fight...Run when you can...better to live a little longer...than try to act tuff!

Anyone can hit their head on the ground or wall or corner of something and get killed...best to run or leave at first chance.........Aloha

We practice something we call "one timing" ...10 of them...involves someone who wants to hurt you...we do simple techniques..blocks, strikes and run ......just seconds to do these......Aloha


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## Brandon Fisher (May 5, 2006)

I believe in the K.I.S.S. principle when it comes to reality self defense.


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## still learning (May 5, 2006)

Hello, Most fights will be fast,furious,chaos,anything goes....non-stop till someone is hurt or quits...no time to think...just reactions to what you have learn. ..and very exhausting.

Many of you heard..." the way you train is the way you will fight!"  ..this is so true....hope you will never really find this out...(only by getting into a real fight you will know).

Those with the most endurance...will have the edge, after the first few minutes. Most fights do not last this long,(someone usually breaks it up).

Defending yourself cold...who will get a chance to warm-up...?  You can tell the other guy wait a few minutes....let me stretch and warm-up first?

In the mean time the other guy will be looking for something to hit you with?  ............NO harm in asking though......Aloha


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## Ross (May 5, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> I believe in the K.I.S.S. principle when it comes to reality self defense.


 
Sorry, K I S S? Haven't heard of that one - can you explain please?

Thanks


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## MJS (May 5, 2006)

Ross said:
			
		

> Sorry, K I S S? Haven't heard of that one - can you explain please?
> 
> Thanks


 
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

At least that is one version that I know.  There may be others.

Mike


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## MJS (May 5, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> I believe in the K.I.S.S. principle when it comes to reality self defense.


 
I second that!!!  Chances are, we may not have the time to go thru a long technique, as things are constantly going to be changing.  Simple, effective moves are the way to go IMHO.

Mike


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## FearlessFreep (May 5, 2006)

I just try to be aware of my body condition as the day goes by.  And I stretch throughout the day and pracicing kicking (in my work clothes).  This is really mostly so come class in the evening I'm ready to go, but it has the benefit that shuod I need to out of class, I'm ready to go.

Agreed though that a jump spin hook-kick is not my first thought when it comes to defending myself


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## Ross (May 5, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Keep
> It
> Simple
> Stupid
> ...


 
LOL D'OH!! I'll get my coat!


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## thescottishdude (May 5, 2006)

without warm up, you're likely to use punches, kicks (basic), blocks and arm grabs. don't expect to do any facy 3-step takedowns either.


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## Robert Lee (May 5, 2006)

Warm up is for training so you get less injurys. But real fights Have no warm up and you do waht you do. Besides high kicks are a danger zone on the streets You might get one off but the chance that you take might be aginst you in the end. Any high kicks should be follow up after you have loosened the person up some to allow it.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 5, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Keep
> It
> Simple
> Stupid
> ...


Thats exactly my point.  Thanks for clarifying it.


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## Jimi (May 5, 2006)

Weither you stretch hard daily or never at all, in a cold sudden self defense situation, kicks to the head are better done on a downed opponent. Sounds mean, brutal, but in a sudden attack you don't know for sure the attackers intent. Kicking someone while they are down in the heat of being startled to ensure your safety is one thing, kicking the **** out of someone over and over is another. Your attacker may very well have that same fate in mind for you. Seen it, been there , done that. Defending yourself cold is not only an athletic aspect of saving yourself, reacting to the rush, clash, snap of the situation is also a factor. More skillfull & fit warriors have fallen on battlefields unable to stand the suddeness of combat. That can be said for many victims on our streets as well. Skill and fitness are great attributes, but can not solely ensure anyones safety. WHEW! End rant. PEACE


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## crushing (May 5, 2006)

This thread reminds me of Inspector Clouseau and his servant, Kato.

A lot of good ideas here.  Thanks!


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## still learning (May 6, 2006)

Hello, Most attackers....usually do not warm-up or stretch either?   But they are prepare to get into the fight..hurt you..or go for the kill.

When they got you by surprise and things start to get worst...start preparing a plan!

Don't say I don't want to get hurt...wrong thing here...If the person attacks...I am going to fight back..no matter what happens....(using the killer instincts for survival).  "Go for broke"...there maybe no tomorrow...Aloha


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