# Greetings from Florida



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Hello to all my fellow martial artists around the internet. I just got a new phone and I'm not used to all the social networking and browser features yet so please forgive me as I'm on a tiny screen. I live in Florida, USA and I have been practicing martial arts on and off for about 25+ years now. I recently became an enforcer or bouncer at a private security agency here in Southwest Florida where I work as a security enforcement officer on the weekends. I'm also the founder of my own Gung Fu system called the Nameless Boxing style or Mou Meng Kuen in Cantonese, which is just a name I recently came up with, not to be confused with Shapeless Boxing and other TCMA styles with similar names or meanings. Before recently Mou Meng Gung Fu had no name and was not really a distinct martial art system or school of thought. Several martial artists from many different schools and styles have influenced me on my own personal journey throughout the years and Mou Meng Kuen is merely the result of that experience. I am not a self-proclaimed master of martial arts, nor do I really have any students apart from my closest family and friends. I'm not really interested in street fighting or sport fighting, or in doing anything really amazing and hard to do. My martial art is very simple. It doesn't require much strength, energy, flexibility, training time or training space to learn my style. Mou Meng Kuen is just a very basic training method designed for self-defense, healthy fitness and longevity. I will probably make a more in-depth elaboration of Mou Meng Gung Fu in the future. But for now I just wanted to introduce myself and say hello to all of the other martial artists here. Like many others, I registered with this group to learn and study new things for my own personal growth and development in martial arts. I am really interested in getting to know everyone here and also maybe sharing some of my knowledge and experience with all of you as well. Thank you ahead of time for accepting me into your MA circle. I hope I learn a lot. Kudos.


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## CB Jones

Welcome to the board


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Thank you.


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## Tames D

Welcome.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Hello and thank you for having me.


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## Jenna

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Hello to all my fellow martial artists around the internet. I just got a new phone and I'm not used to all the social networking and browser features yet so please forgive me as I'm on a tiny screen. I live in Florida, USA and I have been practicing martial arts on and off for about 25+ years now. I recently became an enforcer or bouncer at a private security agency here in Southwest Florida where I work as a security enforcement officer on the weekends. I'm also the founder of my own Gung Fu system called the Nameless Boxing style or Mou Meng Kuen in Cantonese, which is just a name I recently came up with, not to be confused with Shapeless Boxing and other TCMA styles with similar names or meanings. Before recently Mou Meng Gung Fu had no name and was not really a distinct martial art system or school of thought. Several martial artists from many different schools and styles have influenced me on my own personal journey throughout the years and Mou Meng Kuen is merely the result of that experience. I am not a self-proclaimed master of martial arts, nor do I really have any students apart from my closest family and friends. I'm not really interested in street fighting or sport fighting, or in doing anything really amazing and hard to do. My martial art is very simple. It doesn't require much strength, energy, flexibility, training time or training space to learn my style. Mou Meng Kuen is just a very basic training method designed for self-defense, healthy fitness and longevity. I will probably make a more in-depth elaboration of Mou Meng Gung Fu in the future. But for now I just wanted to introduce myself and say hello to all of the other martial artists here. Like many others, I registered with this group to learn and study new things for my own personal growth and development in martial arts. I am really interested in getting to know everyone here and also maybe sharing some of my knowledge and experience with all of you as well. Thank you ahead of time for accepting me into your MA circle. I hope I learn a lot. Kudos.


Hi and welcome aboard!  you have a simple ethos to your new style.. simplicity is good for me  where do you see your new art going? you would want to gain students? is just for you? Wishes to you


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## Buka

Welcome aboard, MMGF, and best wishes in developing your art.


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## oaktree

Where in Florida? Some good schools in Florida.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Welcome. I hope you stick around so we can learn some things from you too.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

My apologies, I didn't see all of your responses until just a little bit ago. Thank you thank you.

A little bit about myself:
- I am not a master of Martial Art
- I have 25+ years of off & on experience in Martial Arts
- I trained under various teachers
- I trained at various schools and locations
- I am the founder of Mou Meng Kuen
- I claim no rank in any System
- I do not publicly teach Martial Art


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

More about myself:

As far back as I can remember, I always had an interest in martial arts. As a 3-year-old boy in the late 80's, I had exposure to a lot of fighting in cartoons and movies. Ninja Turtles, Bat Man, G.I. Joe and other TV shows are honestly what made me play with sticks to begin with. Then as I matured, my interest started to grow. Eventually, I found myself enrolled in a traditional Tae Kwon Do program ran for children 5-6 under a Korean instructor named Master Dewey Troung Tyler.

I was only there for 2 months (2-3 times a week) before I lost interest after failing to break a brick. I just wasn't old enough to understand yet, so I dropped out. But I still practiced some of the techniques he showed me, despite not knowing how to use them. When I turned 14-yrs-old, I watched a lot of movies like Indiana Jones and Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, which made me interested in trying again. My neighbor happened to be a man twice my age whom everyone called Mister Rokko, who just happened to be a brown-belt Shotokan Karate junior instructor at that time. I became his backyard private student for 6 months, at which time he brought me to his instructor (Grandmaster Santella) and had me tested with the other Shotokan Karate students. I was awarded 3 ranks by the end of it and earned a red-belt. For teaching me, Sensei Rokko earned a black-belt and was also promoted to the rank of Master or senior instructor (I believe that was in 1999).

To be continued...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> More about myself:
> 
> As far back as I can remember, I always had an interest in martial arts. As a 3-year-old boy in the late 80's, I had exposure to a lot of fighting in cartoons and movies. Ninja Turtles, Bat Man, G.I. Joe and other TV shows are honestly what made me play with sticks to begin with. Then as I matured, my interest started to grow. Eventually, I found myself enrolled in a traditional Tae Kwon Do program ran for children 5-6 under a Korean instructor named Master Dewey Troung Tyler.
> 
> I was only there for 2 months (2-3 times a week) before I lost interest after failing to break a brick. I just wasn't old enough to understand yet, so I dropped out. But I still practiced some of the techniques he showed me, despite not knowing how to use them. When I turned 14-yrs-old, I watched a lot of movies like Indiana Jones and Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, which made me interested in trying again. My neighbor happened to be a man twice my age whom everyone called Mister Rokko, who just happened to be a brown-belt Shotokan Karate junior instructor at that time. I became his backyard private student for 6 months, at which time he brought me to his instructor (Grandmaster Santella) and had me tested with the other Shotokan Karate students. I was awarded 3 ranks by the end of it and earned a red-belt. For teaching me, Sensei Rokko earned a black-belt and was also promoted to the rank of Master.


What is the experience you have with CMA? From what you've sated so far, I've kind of assumed a CMA was our primary art.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

kempodisciple said:


> What is the experience you have with CMA? From what you've sated so far, I've kind of assumed a CMA was our primary art.



I haven't gotten that far yet. But I will, in due time. Just relax and absorb everything I say about myself. It will give you a better perspective.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

More about myself:

Prior to 1999, martial art was just an off and on hobby for me. But by the age of fifteen, I was beginning to take it more seriously. I invested countless hours in internet research, library books, films and movies, studying as much as I could about the martial arts. That's how I found out about legends like Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee, who really influenced me as a teenager. I was also infatuated with Shaolin spirituality and Shaolin Kung Fu, and it was through this exposure to Shaolin's fame and mysticism that drew my energy to it. I wanted to be like Bruce Lee, or the Shaolin monks, so that's when I became more passionate and decided to learn Chinese martial arts. By the year 2000, I was studying the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and applying it to my Shotokan Karate style. That's how I found out about the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute.

To be continued...


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

More about myself:

I continued to practice Karate over the years, modifying it and adapting it to myself as I trained. Being young, I wanted to test my skills. I had some exposure to bare-knuckle boxing and illegal street fighting as a result. In the year 2000, I enrolled in a western fencing studio. I went to 4 lessons, but the classes were too expensive so I dropped out. Shortly afterwards, I met a grandmaster named Sifu David Gallaher who accepted me as his student. Sifu Gallaher forced me to empty my cup and forget everything I had learned previously from other styles. It was at that moment when I began my training in Wing Chun Kuen.

To be continued...


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

More about myself:

I met two Karate practitioners in the year 2000 who would later become like brothers to me. One was my junior, a Kyokushin stylist named Brother Erik Klow, and the other, my senior Master Maruyama who was a Shotokan instructor (and a senior student of Hung Suen Wing Chun Kuen). Following this, I met another man named Grandmaster Gallaher who started training me in Yip Man Wing Chun Kuen, a style that heavily influenced my future training. From the year 2000 to around 2005, my primary focus was on Wing Chun and sparring. Towards the middle of 2003, my Wing Chun was getting better, and soon I started taking additional side classes in Jeet Kune Do, the martial art that Bruce Lee founded. I did some WC/JKD training with my Sihings (Wayne King Jr., Jay Koller and Gary Leverson- all now Sifus at their own locations) as well as some Sayoc Kali training and sparring under 2 of Grandmaster Gallaher's other FMA students. Through the Wing Chun connection, I met a lot of TCMA stylists from a lot of different schools and martial arts during that time period. The heavy cultural exchange would have a big effect on my training.

To be continued...


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

More about myself:

In 2004, I met a 34th generation Shaolin warrior monk by the name of Shi Yan Ming, who showed me some TCMA demonstrations. It was at this time I began to take more of an interest in Qi Gong and Tai Chi, which also complimented my TCMA training. Then in 2005, I began backyard private training with Sensei Mears, a Kodokan Judo and Brazilian Jiujitsu black-belt holder from GM Santella's institute. I continued to train privately with Sensei Mears for a few years, then after a break from martial arts, we both re-enrolled at GM Santella's institute and joined the MMA program. During the MMA classes we would train using MMA's methodologies and orthodox structure, then for backyard private training we would practice WCK/JKD and traditional Judo/Aikido, mixing all of our different elements together. At that time, we simply refered to it as "Martial Arts" training.

To be continued...


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## Tony Dismukes

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Then in 2005, I began backyard private training with Sensei Mears, a Kodokan Judo and Brazilian Jiujitsu black-belt holder from GM Santella's institute. I continued to train privately with Sensei Mears for a few years, then after a break from martial arts, we both re-enrolled at GM Santella's institute and joined the MMA program.


By "GM Santella" I presume you mean this guy? The Instructors - Martial Arts University

If so, I've got a question for you. During your time at "Soke" Santella's academy, did he claim to hold a black belt in BJJ? If so, did he say who awarded it?

I ask because:

His bio is curiously vague on specifics. He claims to hold black belt or teaching credentials in 9 arts but doesn't say what any of them are. Neither he nor any of his instructors list any background or qualifications in BJJ.
Nevertheless, his academy offers BJJ classes and BJJ is listed as one of the major programs for the school.
I can't find any indication elsewhere that Mr. Santella holds rank in BJJ or is a qualified instructor.
When you were posting as Fujian Animal over at Martial Arts Planet, you made some claims regarding his Judo qualifications that were wildly incorrect. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you were repeating what you had been told rather than making up those claims on your own. If so, I'm wondering what other sorts of stories he might have told.

(Note to the mods - don't worry, I'm not going to engage in any fraudbusting on this forum. I'm just gathering info to see if I need to start some investigations elsewhere.)


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Tony Dismukes said:


> By "GM Santella" I presume you mean this guy? The Instructors - Martial Arts University
> 
> If so, I've got a question for you. During your time at "Soke" Santella's academy, did he claim to hold a black belt in BJJ? If so, did he say who awarded it?
> 
> I ask because:
> 
> His bio is curiously vague on specifics. He claims to hold black belt or teaching credentials in 9 arts but doesn't say what any of them are. Neither he nor any of his instructors list any background or qualifications in BJJ.
> Nevertheless, his academy offers BJJ classes and BJJ is listed as one of the major programs for the school.
> I can't find any indication elsewhere that Mr. Santella holds rank in BJJ or is a qualified instructor.
> When you were posting as Fujian Animal over at Martial Arts Planet, you made some claims regarding his Judo qualifications that were wildly incorrect. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you were repeating what you had been told rather than making up those claims on your own. If so, I'm wondering what other sorts of stories he might have told.
> 
> (Note to the mods - don't worry, I'm not going to engage in any fraudbusting on this forum. I'm just gathering info to see if I need to start some investigations elsewhere.)



I never said he learned BJJ "at" GM Santella's school, just that he was "from" that school. While I was at GM Santella's school, all we practiced was Karate (in the 1990's), Judo and MMA (in the 2000's). I do not recall him ever making any personal claims about himself lol. All he ever cared about was training. This might seem odd to you, but to be honest I never asked for his credentials. I didn't have to. He was a good teacher. I met many martial artists from that school.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

More about myself:

Between the years 2005 and 2010, there was a lot of cross-training and sparring going on in Sensei Mears' garage-style "Martial Arts" program. I was his assistant 80% of the time. We trained with our closest friends and family members. It was very informal, very casual, very neighborhood friendly. I eventually branched off from Sensei Mears' garage and started cross-training in Brother Jon Young's backyard also, which was just 2 streets away. Whereas the training at Sensei Mears' garage was more tactically geared for Street Defense (with protective gear and metal knives), the training in Brother Young's backyard was mostly geared towards traditional Bokuto Sword Freestyle Fencing drills (without protective gear) and improvised WCK/FMA knife-weilding techniques (using sticks instead of knives), with some sensitivity drills and philosophical discussions pertaining to martial arts. By the year 2012, stylized systems no longer mattered to me. I was doing everything- researching my own experience, absorbing the useful, discarding the useless, and adding what was specifically my own. A different non-classical "Martial Arts" program emerged, the foundation of what I would refer to many years later as Wumingquan (or "Nameless Boxing").

To be continued...


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Tony Dismukes said:


> (Note to the mods - don't worry, I'm not going to engage in any fraudbusting on this forum. I'm just gathering info to see if I need to start some investigations elsewhere.)



No investigation necessary. I have pictures and videos to show you. 

P.S.- I just recently started training with George "Rat" Adkins from the Sherdog UFC/MMA industry. I hope to get some better footage of this experience in the future. I just hope he doesn't beat me up too badly (Lol). But stay tuned for more about that as well. We literally just started training together.


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## Buka

You can use the "Gallery" to post all your photos. Might be easier than filling up a thread.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

More about myself:

To this day, I continue to learn and grow as a martial artist. I am far more experienced and advanced than I was 10 years ago. However, I have also learned quite a bit about patience, respect and humility. I am still learning, still evolving, still reaching for the stars. In December 2016, I coined the term "Mou Meng Kuen" in reference to my personal style of which I am the founder. Many years ago, I shed my biased prejudice against martial arts that I do not understand or have no natural skill at. Since then I have shed any and all previous ranks, trophies, and certificates that I might have recieved in the past. I do not claim to be a master of martial arts. I no longer hold a rank in any system. I do not teach martial arts, except to my close family and friends. I am not interested in sport fighting or making money. I am more passionate about the MA training itself and learning, improving and evolving as a martial artist. In the past, I was very cocky and arrogant, delusional and misinformed, not to mention very angry. But through my studying and training in martial arts, my temperament has improved and my open-mindedness has expanded. I no longer believe in stylized training. I no longer promote violence as a means to an end. My art is becoming ever so softer than what it used to be. This is not the end of my story, however. It's merely the beginning. Who knows where I'll be, or what my martial art will look like 10 years from now? I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Until then, this is where I leave off. Keep flowing.

A martial artist in progress...


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Buka said:


> You can use the "Gallery" to post all your photos. Might be easier than filling up a thread.



Thank you.


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## Tony Dismukes

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I never said he learned BJJ "at" GM Santella's school, just that he was "from" that school.


Okay, thanks. FYI, when you say "_I began backyard private training with Sensei Mears, a Kodokan Judo and *Brazilian Jiujitsu black-belt holder from GM Santella's institute*_", most people will interpret that to mean that Mr. Mears was awarded his BJJ black belt at Mr. Santella's institute.

If this wasn't the case, do you happen to know who Mr. Mears earned his BJJ black belt under?



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> While I was at GM Santella's school, all we practiced was *Karate (in the 1990's),* Judo and MMA (in the 2000's).


I thought you didn't train at Santella's place until the late 2000's?



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I do not recall him ever making any personal claims about himself lol. All he ever cared about was training. This might seem odd to you, but to be honest I never asked for his credentials.



No problem. Lots of students (especially the less experienced ones) don't think to investigate their chief instructor's credentials beyond "he's wearing a black belt." It's just that you made those claims regarding Mr. Santella's Judo credentials over at MAP, so I figured someone must have given you that misinformation.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> No investigation necessary. I have pictures and videos to show you.



Not to worry. You aren't the one I would be investigating. You don't claim any rank or special mastery in anything. I'm looking at Mr. Santella. We in the BJJ community are pretty stringent about policing false claims of BJJ rank - especially black belt.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I just recently started training with George "Rat" Adkins from the Sherdog UFC/MMA industry



Uh, you might want to rephrase that. There's no such thing as "_the Sherdog UFC/MMA industry_." George Adkins is a former MMA competitor who never did nearly well enough to make it into the UFC (pro record 2-8-0). He may be an excellent martial artist and training partner, but he was never part of Sherdog or the UFC and unless he's training fighters now, he hasn't been part of the MMA industry for about 12 years now.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, thanks. FYI, when you say "_I began backyard private training with Sensei Mears, a Kodokan Judo and *Brazilian Jiujitsu black-belt holder from GM Santella's institute*_", most people will interpret that to mean that Mr. Mears was awarded his BJJ black belt at Mr. Santella's institute.
> 
> If this wasn't the case, do you happen to know who Mr. Mears earned his BJJ black belt under?
> 
> 
> I thought you didn't train at Santella's place until the late 2000's?
> 
> 
> 
> No problem. Lots of students (especially the less experienced ones) don't think to investigate their chief instructor's credentials beyond "he's wearing a black belt." It's just that you made those claims regarding Mr. Santella's Judo credentials over at MAP, so I figured someone must have given you that misinformation.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to worry. You aren't the one I would be investigating. You don't claim any rank or special mastery in anything. I'm looking at Mr. Santella. We in the BJJ community are pretty stringent about policing false claims of BJJ rank - especially black belt.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, you might want to rephrase that. There's no such thing as "_the Sherdog UFC/MMA industry_." George Adkins is a former MMA competitor who never did nearly well enough to make it into the UFC (pro record 2-8-0). He may be an excellent martial artist and training partner, but he was never part of Sherdog or the UFC and unless he's training fighters now, he hasn't been part of the MMA industry for about 12 years now.



Forgive me but that's a barrage of questions and I'm not so good with typing/quoting like you are. But I will try to answer you the best I can. Just take everything I say with a grain of salt, as some of your questions pertain to vague memories I have from 10-15 years ago. But here it goes.

I am not sure where Sensei Mears learned BJJ from. I know he was a member of GM Santella's gym. It's possible he learned BJJ from GM Santella himself. I know GM Santella has certificates from the Inosanto Martial Arts Academy under Sifu Richard Bustillo, and many other trophies, certificates and awards in several martial art systems. Other than that, I can't tell you very much other than what I was exposed to.

Sensei Rokko was another member of GM Santella's gym. In the late-90's era, Sensei Rokko was teaching me Shotokan Karate, and for testing purposes we went to GM Santella's gym. That was prior to my training in Judo and MMA, which I would return to his gym for in the mid-2000's (so actually, I was there during 2 different time periods). I left for a while, did some TCMA training, then eventually went back to learn MMA.

When I said I didn't check GM Santella's credentials, it's because I didn't have to. His entire gym was full of credentials, certificates, trophies, ribbons and newspaper articles. He was a well-known instructor in the community. He had several assistant instructors all teaching different classes at the gym. Some pretty big names flew all the way from mainland Japan to instruct the classes there. I really was impressed by his martial abilities. I didn't feel the need to question his authenticity.

As to your comments about George Adkins and Sherdog, you may or may not be correct. I don't know too much about the UFC or how it works. I just know his name is mentioned on Sherdog's official web site. I also know he did TKD and NHB for a while, became a MMA coach and then a sport-fighting referee for some time. I know he has a lot of big name friends in the MMA world. Other than that, I have no comment.


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## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> View attachment 20569


OK first off this is not how you hold a sword so it makes me think the bokuto traditional sword classes were really just guys in a backyard swinging swords at each other.


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## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> View attachment 20572


This is very bad form and anyone who practices Japanese sword arts will say the same.


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## oaktree

What exactly did the shaolin monk teach you in regards to taijiquan and qigong? It is a little odd that he would teach anything related to taijiquan.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> This is very bad form and anyone who practices Japanese sword arts will say the same.



Who said anything about restricting oneself to Japanese sword arts? I practice Wumingquan, please don't mistake that for something else.


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## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Who said anything about restricting oneself to Japanese sword arts? I practice Wumingquan, please don't mistake that for something else.


OK then it's really bad mechanics in holding a Japanese sword and shows someone who doesn't understand the how and why you don't hold a sword like that.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> OK then it's really bad mechanics in holding a Japanese sword and shows someone who doesn't understand the how and why you don't hold a sword like that.



Who said it was a Japanese sword? Mind you, that's an old picture by the way. Someone already bashed me for holding my elbows up like that (refering to a different picture where I'm doing the same technique, just unarmed). But we already discussed why such opinions are irrelevant. Again, this is Wumingquan, please don't confuse it with other martial arts. I don't have the same stylized mentality that you do.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> What exactly did the shaolin monk teach you in regards to taijiquan and qigong? It is a little odd that he would teach anything related to taijiquan.



In 2004, I met a 34th generation Shaolin warrior monk by the name of Shi Yan Ming, who showed me some TCMA demonstrations. Who said I was his student? Be careful how you interpret things. My communication skills on the internet are not so good.


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## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Who said it was a Japanese sword? Mind you, that's an old picture by the way. Someone already bashed me for holding my elbows up like that (refering to a different picture where I'm doing the same technique, just unarmed). But we already discussed why such opinions are irrelevant. Again, this is Wumingquan, please don't confuse it with other martial arts. I don't have the same stylized mentality that you do.


OK fine bad form for holding a Chinese sword though the tsuba, and blade look to be a Japanese sword you then posted another picture of someone holding an obvious katana wall hanger and said you trained in traditional bokuto sword(which sounds a little strange most people would say kenjutsu or name the actual ryuha)


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## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> In 2004, I met a 34th generation Shaolin warrior monk by the name of Shi Yan Ming, who showed me some TCMA demonstrations. Who said I was his student? Be careful how you interpret things. My communication skills on the internet are not so good.


So he showed you some forms and didn't teach you anything ok....So then you started to learn Taijiquan and Qigong or you just were interested in it and read some books on it? I actually practice Chen Taijiquan and Qigong as well.


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## oaktree

"traditional Bokuto Sword Freestyle Fencing drills"
There is no such things as Traditional Bokuto sword freestyle fencing drills. The closest thing that comes to this would most likely be Kenjutsu which uses Bokken and they are not freestyle  but carefully develop sequences and arrangements for the most part.


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## Tony Dismukes

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I am not sure where Sensei Mears learned BJJ from. I know he was a member of GM Santella's gym. It's possible he learned BJJ from GM Santella himself.



That's why I'm trying to track down whether Mr. Santella is actually ranked in BJJ himself. My current research points towards no, but I'm still investigating.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> When I said I didn't check GM Santella's credentials, it's because I didn't have to. His entire gym was full of credentials, certificates, trophies, ribbons and newspaper articles



Just for future reference, should you happen to attend another school down the line, having a gym "_full of credentials, certificates, trophies, ribbons and newspaper articles_" tells you nothing useful unless you investigate exactly who issued those credentials, certificates, trophies, and ribbons and exactly what they are for. (The newspaper articles will almost always be promotional fluff with a local reporter repeating whatever the instructor told him.)



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> As to your comments about George Adkins and Sherdog, you may or may not be correct. I don't know too much about the UFC or how it works. I just know his name is mentioned on Sherdog's official web site.



Just to help clarify things for you:

MMA is a sport, with amateur and professional fighters competing in a wide variety of small-time and big-time promotions.

The UFC is currently the largest business running professional MMA events. They usually hire only top-tier MMA competitors who have proven themselves in smaller promotions.

Sherdog is a website for MMA fans that provides reporting and commentary on the MMA scene. One thing they do as part of that reporting is collect results from various pro MMA events and tally up the fight records of the competitors in those events.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> OK first off this is not how you hold a sword so it makes me think the bokuto traditional sword classes were really just guys in a backyard swinging swords at each other.



You mean like this? Lol


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## Flying Crane

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> View attachment 20595
> 
> You mean like this? Lol


Is that you?  Tom Cruise?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> OK fine bad form for holding a Chinese sword though the tsuba, and blade look to be a Japanese sword you then posted another picture of someone holding an obvious katana wall hanger and said you trained in traditional bokuto sword(which sounds a little strange most people would say kenjutsu or name the actual ryuha)



Chinese sword, Japanese sword, etc. I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. Until you give up the very notion of style, how can you taste my tea? You're over-analyzing, making simple matters too complex. Stop thinking so much, it's good for the mind but it cheats the body over time. In all my years, I have seen many styles. Different cultures use different swords. Sometimes they use the same swords. FMA uses katana-type swords, but they use them very differently as opposed to their JMA counterparts. Is it right then to say that FMA is wrong? That they have bad form? Or to be the devil's advocate, is it right for FMA stylists to say that JMA stylists are wrong? That they have bad form, or no true understanding of how to wield a sword? I don't think it's true, or even fair to say that. I do not believe that "this" style is better than "that" style. There are no bad martial arts. Only bad students. Until you liberate your mind from such stylized thinking, you will never have an understanding of me or my style.


----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> View attachment 20595
> 
> You mean like this? Lol


Showing a movie picture doesn't help your case. At best it shows you copied a movie at worse it shows a lack of proper handling of a sword. Looking at your picture and Tom cruise the kamae holding and postures look different too. To be blunt your posture with a sword looks like a MySpace picture that impresses naruto fans.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Flying Crane said:


> Is that you?  Tom Cruise?



Tom Cruise lol


----------



## Flying Crane

Ok, a good system teaches you how to do something optimally.  When it comes to a sword you don't need good skill or knowledge to be dangerous with it.  Stab him with the pointy end, cut him with the edge.  It's pretty intuitive.  But that doesn't mean you are doing it optimally, or with any real skill, and you might be as dangerous to yourself as you are to the other guy. That style that you are prone to disparage is a methodology, used to build some genuine skill and knowledge.  It isn't about moving in a stylized way.  That is a different thing,and I suspect you don't really comprehend that.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> Showing a movie picture doesn't help your case. At best it shows you copied a movie at worse it shows a lack of proper handling of a sword. Looking at your picture and Tom cruise the kamae holding and postures look different too. To be blunt your posture with a sword looks like a MySpace picture that impresses naruto fans.



Have you ever practiced NHB traditional Bokuto Sword Freestyle Sparring in your Kenjutsu classes? If not, if all you do is practice pre-arranged sequences with a bokken, then how do you know if your Kenjutsu is really any good? Have you ever trained without a helmet or facemask? Have you ever had your fingers broken, or felt the sting of a wooden sword across your neck? If not, then what good is it? What are you learning? How to practice safety in live combat with a real sword? What good is that against a true sword fighter, one who is not afraid to be cut or stabbed? He will run you over with your own sword. Trust me, I have seen it happen before.


----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Have you ever practiced NHB traditional Bokuto Sword Freestyle Sparring in your Kenjutsu classes? If not, if all you do is practice pre-arranged sequences with a bokken, then how do you know if your Kenjutsu is really any good?


I can't practice something that doesn't exist lol. There is no such thing as nhb traditional bokuto sword freestyle sparring. If you came to our kenjutsu class and said any of this our teacher would just say please leave. 
My kenjutsu is good because I practice the way my teacher tells me who learned it from his teacher and so on as the tradition is one of the oldest sword schools in Japan.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, a good system teaches you how to do something optimally.  When it comes to a sword you don't need good skill or knowledge to be dangerous with it.  Stab him with the pointy end, cut him with the edge.  It's pretty intuitive.  But that doesn't mean you are doing it optimally, or with any real skill, and you might be as dangerous to yourself as you are to the other guy. That style that you are prone to disparage is a methodology, used to build some genuine skill and knowledge.  It isn't about moving in a stylized way.  That is a different thing,and I suspect you don't really comprehend that.



Wielding a bokuto successfully requires way more understanding than this. It's not as easy as stabbing with the pointy end and cutting with the edge. Even a Kendo practitioner knows that. Bokutos are made of wood and shaped like an actual sword. Use it improperly when sparring, and you will break your sword. So actually it requires a lot of understanding to weild a bokuto in freestyle sparring. Takes years to master. I have broken quite a few bokuto swords over the years, usually due to my own improper handling. But if I do it right, I could probably break your sword without losing mine. The bokuto I have hanging on my wall right now is one example. I broke 4 swords with that 1 sword.


----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Chinese sword, Japanese sword, etc. I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. Until you give up the very notion of style, how can you taste my tea? You're over-analyzing, making simple matters too complex. Stop thinking so much, it's good for the mind but it cheats the body over time. In all my years, I have seen many styles. Different cultures use different swords. Sometimes they use the same swords. FMA uses katana-type swords, but they use them very differently as opposed to their JMA counterparts. Is it right then to say that FMA is wrong? That they have bad form? Or to be the devil's advocate, is it right for FMA stylists to say that JMA stylists are wrong? That they have bad form, or no true understanding of how to wield a sword? I don't think it's true, or even fair to say that. I do not believe that "this" style is better than "that" style. There are no bad martial arts. Only bad students. Until you liberate your mind from such stylized thinking, you will never have an understanding of me or my style.


What you don't seem to understand is the very style or school has its own particular way of doing things, technique is only the surface, but each sword school has certain characteristics unique to that school. Saying the jigen Ryu and Katori Shinto Ryu are the same as Chen taijiquan jian shows lack of understanding of swordsmanship.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> What you don't seem to understand is the very style or school has its own particular way of doing things, technique is only the surface, but each sword school has certain characteristics unique to that school. Saying the jigen Ryu and Katori Shinto Ryu are the same as Chen taijiquan jian shows lack of understanding of swordsmanship.



I would have to agree with you on that. But I never made those claims. You did. Your stylized way of thinking has put false words in my mouth. I never said any of that. Not once did I say that.


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## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I would have to agree with you on that. But I never made those claims. You did. Your stylized way of thinking has put false words in my mouth. I never said any of that. Not once did I say that.


What false words? I spoke about how your sword handling is not good at least from a Japanese sword and Chinese jian stand point if you are doing some Korean FMA mixture ninja turtle thing well not much I can say as I don't train in Korean ninja turtle.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> What false words? I spoke about how your sword handling is not good at least from a Japanese sword and Chinese jian stand point if you are doing some Korean FMA mixture ninja turtle thing well not much I can say as I don't train in Korean ninja turtle.



"Saying the jigen Ryu and Katori Shinto Ryu are the same as Chen taijiquan jian..."

Those false words. Please don't play coy with me. I know you're not here to learn anything. You wanted this opportunity to knit-pick at me. You wanted to knit-pick at my history. You wanted to knit-pick at my style. I posted these things in order to oblige you. I acknowledge and respect your opinion of my style, but I will not tolerate any disrespect. It's obvious you are throwing subtle insults into your analogy. That's fine and dandy, but I don't have to respond to it. You stood up for Dale when he was in the wrong. He got in trouble for it, and now you're mad at me. I'm no Einstein, but I'm not a complete idiot. That's okay. I don't really feel like I have to defend myself, or my style. It speaks for itself. Some martial artists will be fond of it. Some will not. You can go ahead and do all the knit-picking you want. As for me, I'm going out back to do some training. Good luck with your stylized investigations.


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## oaktree

"Saying jigen Ryu and Katori Shinto Ryu are the same as Chen jian" your point was not to be caught in styles I used those three styles as a reference to point out that styles have different methods not saying you said.

You came on this site with a style you created so when you say things that do not add up or are different people question it.
I actually am not mad at you however I will comment and correct something that is an error or ask for clarification. Dale is responsible for his own actions. I was saying Dale is a no bs kinda of guy and very well known in Chinese martial arts.
Because when people Google your style name they will be brought here and frankly something are strange so we ask questions.


----------



## Flying Crane

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Wielding a bokuto successfully requires way more understanding than this. It's not as easy as stabbing with the pointy end and cutting with the edge. Even a Kendo practitioner knows that. Bokutos are made of wood and shaped like an actual sword. Use it improperly when sparring, and you will break your sword. So actually it requires a lot of understanding to weild a bokuto in freestyle sparring. Takes years to master. I have broken quite a few bokuto swords over the years, usually due to my own improper handling. But if I do it right, I could probably break your sword without losing mine. The bokuto I have hanging on my wall right now is one example. I broke 4 swords with that 1 sword.


Sigh.

Ok then.


----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Wielding a bokuto successfully requires way more understanding than this. It's not as easy as stabbing with the pointy end and cutting with the edge. Even a Kendo practitioner knows that. Bokutos are made of wood and shaped like an actual sword. Use it improperly when sparring, and you will break your sword. So actually it requires a lot of understanding to weild a bokuto in freestyle sparring. Takes years to master. I have broken quite a few bokuto swords over the years, usually due to my own improper handling. But if I do it right, I could probably break your sword without losing mine. The bokuto I have hanging on my wall right now is one example. I broke 4 swords with that 1 sword.


Um....if you are breaking your bokken so often  you are not practicing correctly and the goal isn't to break your bokken or the other guys. I practiced with my teacher and students and visited other schools never saw someone break a bokken during practice even when we did practice pretty hard. I am thinking you are swinging it like a bat in your nhb traditional bokuto sword freestyle sparring.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> Um....if you are breaking your bokken so often  you are not practicing correctly and the goal isn't to break your bokken or the other guys. I practiced with my teacher and students and visited other schools never saw someone break a bokken during practice even when we did practice pretty hard. I am thinking you are swinging it like a bat in your nhb traditional bokuto sword freestyle sparring.



Bokuto, not bokken. Your words, not mine. I can see your perspective now, so allow me to clarify. Sometimes you swing it like a bat. Sometimes you don't. In motion, with no form or preset movement, no sequences and no stylized pattern, all you can do is respond to your opponent in whatever way you can. Efficiency is whatever works. Do whatever comes natural (but remember I'm also speaking to you from a WCK perspective as well). The bokutos I broke over the years were the result of incorrect handling. I did say that already, no need to emphasize. I did say the last 4 bokuto swords I broke were broken by my 1 bokuto hanging on the wall. That's at least some testimony to at least one skill I have learned, if nothing else. But wooden swords are not the only thing my bokutos have broken over the years. However, no serious or life-threatening injuries have ever occured during my sparring sessions (not in the last 10 years since Wumingquan's foundation) and actually, due to our persistent training and dedication, we have really received less and less injuries over the years, through better handling and natural learning from pain. I should also probably mention that bokuto freestyle sparring isn't really a primary core teaching or even a fundamental part of Wumingquan, nor do we train with weapons. This photos are just for demonstration. Btw, the man holding the katana above his head. That is GM Santella, and I'm not sure what you see wrong with his posture, or with mine.


----------



## oaktree

A bokken or bokuto often used interchanging I guess more technical bokuto may be used though in Japan i have heard both and my teacher used bokken


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## oaktree

What ryuha swings the sword like a bat? Did your teacher teach you this?! 
GM Santella looks like a guy who studied Karate and thought swords are cool let me add my karate stance and hold the sword with a baseball grip. 
Let me explain what waza teaches you in swordsmanship because you think you can just grab a bokken and start having sword battles. The waza in some cases teaches you how to handle certain attacks and defense, how to develop the correct footwork, the correct distancing, and timing which was developed by people who actually fought with swords on the battlefield there is a lot going on then what appears in a waza and a lot of secrets and henka that only students are shown.
I have not broken mine yet had mine for years but then again I do not slam mine like a baseball bat.


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## BuckerooBonzai

Oh dear God, this is becoming another train wreck.  So painful!  WHY do I keep reading these threads???


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## CB Jones

BuckerooBonzai said:


> Oh dear God, this is becoming another train wreck.  So painful!  WHY do I keep reading these threads???



because who doesn't like a good train wreck


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## oaktree

Apparently there already exist a wumingquan style!


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## clfsean

I want my 46 seconds back ...


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> A bokken or bokuto often used interchanging I guess more technical bokuto may be used though in Japan i have heard both and my teacher used bokken



GM Santella was not my fencing instructor, just for the record. The bokuto is a solid wooden practice sword with a slightly curved blade, much like a katana. Yagyu village is said to have started the practice of bokuto sword freestyle sparring, though the Yagyu-ryuha is very different from what I practiced.

Miyamoto Musashi was famous for fighting fully armed foes with only one or two bokken. Musashi defeated Sasaki Kojiro with a bokken he had carved from a boat oar. The bokken is a wooden sword too, but it usually has a guard/tsuba and is made from lighter wood (at least that's what I think of when I hear the term "bokken").

The bokuto I trained with was made from harder wood and does not have a tsuba/guard to protect the hands. This wooden sword is more similar in appearance to the bokuto used by Yagyu Muneyoshi, but the style I practiced was very different. As you may remember, Yagyu Muneyoshi is famous for his duel against Hikida Bungoro, who defeated him with a shinai. The shinai is another wooden sword made from a bundle of bamboo sticks bound together with a tsuba/guard to protect your hands.


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## oaktree

Did you learn actual swordsmanship from a teacher and if so what type?

I learned Chen taijiquan jian form, Katori Shinto Ryu(currently) and some exposure to FMA sword work.


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## hoshin1600

where is that bunny with a pancake on its head ?  my forehead is getting sore from banging it 


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> . The bokuto is a solid wooden practice sword with a slightly curved blade, much like a katana. Yagyu village is said to have started the practice of bokuto sword freestyle sparring, though the Yagyu-ryuha is very different from what I practiced.
> 
> Miyamoto Musashi was famous for fighting fully armed foes with only one or two bokken. Musashi defeated Sasaki Kojiro with a bokken he had carved from a boat oar. The bokken is a wooden sword too, but it usually has a guard/tsuba and is made from lighter wood (at least that's what I think of when I hear the term "bokken").
> 
> The bokuto I trained with was made from harder wood and does not have a tsuba/guard to protect the hands. This wooden sword is more similar in appearance to the bokuto used by Yagyu Muneyoshi, but the style I practiced was very different. As you may remember, Yagyu Muneyoshi is famous for his duel against Hikida Bungoro, who defeated him with a shinai. The shinai is another wooden sword made from a bundle of bamboo sticks bound together with a tsuba/guard to protect your hands.



Seriously???

i would suggest  you to do a lot of reading of threads on this sight. we just covered bokken VS bokuto like a few weeks ago.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> Apparently there already exist a wumingquan style!



That's interesting. I've never seen that style before. It looks very different from what I practice. Not the same style. I have never met that guy before. I don't know who that is.


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## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> That's interesting. I've never seen that style before. It looks very different from what I practice. Not the same style. I have never met that guy before. I don't know who that is.


Well according to him his style has been around for a good 30 years. You might have to change your name it might be copyrighted.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> Did you learn actual swordsmanship from a teacher and if so what type?



I'm pretty sure I already answered this question more than once. But I will answer it again. Sigh.

Let me put it to you in a more stylized way, since that seems to be the only way you can relate or understand. You can call my style "Furīsutairu Furu-Sesshoku Supāringu" if it helps. You could say that Brother Jon Young was my "Sensei" in that "system" if you want, along with the fellas from Sensei Young's classes. Who were their teachers? Don't know, don't care. Again, I am not a weapons expert, nor do I claim to be a master of anything except for maybe Wumingquan (and even that is debatable). Wumingquan is not focussed on weapons training, only on ways to disarm an opponent. I am 33-years-old. I have been practicing martial arts on and off for most of my entire life. Fencing is really, really, really not a big part of my training. I actually find it kind of funny that some martial artists are knit-picking at my style and making such a big deal over things which mean so little to me. That was years ago. Lol

I am a martial artist. I do not practice Karate, or Kenjutsu, or Taijiquan, or BJJ, or MMA, or Taekwondo, or Wing Chun, or JKD, or FMA or Muay Thai, or Jujutsu or Crazy YouTube style Wumingquan or whatever else you want to call it. I practice Wu Wei style Wumingquan, and until you get that through your thick skull, I'm afraid there's no hope for you in any of my threads or postings. You will just be wasting your own time and energy.


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## oaktree

So you acknowledge you don't study an actual sword ryuha but basically you and some guys banging wooden swords in a backyard with out any authentic or qualified training. I don't think you can say you study wumingquan if someone is already teaching that and may have copied righted that name.

Again, you came on this site about your style you created and the claims and your pictures are up for people to question and critique, if I created my own style with some vague generalization, inconsistencies then you bet people would ask questions. I am not saying you are a fraud, what I am doing is trying to get a better understanding what you are trying to do, and educate the average person who may come on to this thread thinking there actually is a nhb traditional bokuto sword art. You can do what you want to however if you continue to make claims on a public forum, do not be surprised if people more knowledgeable on subjects comment on them.


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## DaleDugas

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> More about myself:
> 
> As far back as I can remember, I always had an interest in martial arts. As a 3-year-old boy in the late 80's, I had exposure to a lot of fighting in cartoons and movies. Ninja Turtles, Bat Man, G.I. Joe and other TV shows are honestly what made me play with sticks to begin with. Then as I matured, my interest started to grow. Eventually, I found myself enrolled in a traditional Tae Kwon Do program ran for children 5-6 under a Korean instructor named Master Dewey Troung Tyler.
> 
> I was only there for 2 months (2-3 times a week) before I lost interest after failing to break a brick. I just wasn't old enough to understand yet, so I dropped out. But I still practiced some of the techniques he showed me, despite not knowing how to use them. When I turned 14-yrs-old, I watched a lot of movies like Indiana Jones and Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, which made me interested in trying again. My neighbor happened to be a man twice my age whom everyone called Mister Rokko, who just happened to be a brown-belt Shotokan Karate junior instructor at that time. I became his backyard private student for 6 months, at which time he brought me to his instructor (Grandmaster Santella) and had me tested with the other Shotokan Karate students. I was awarded 3 ranks by the end of it and earned a red-belt. For teaching me, Sensei Rokko earned a black-belt and was also promoted to the rank of Master or senior instructor (I believe that was in 1999).
> 
> To be continued...



So the brown belt who taught you was "rewarded" with the rank of master or senior instructor?  Umm, he was a brown belt, how did he jump to master rank or sernior instructor rank?

Something sounds very fishy with the no name material, that seems to have a lot of names being dropped.


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## DaleDugas

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> View attachment 20567



Remember, he says he is an "enforcer" for a local security agency.

Oh boy...


----------



## TwentyThree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Chinese sword, Japanese sword, etc. I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. Until you give up the very notion of style, how can you taste my tea? You're over-analyzing, making simple matters too complex. Stop thinking so much, it's good for the mind but it cheats the body over time. In all my years, I have seen many styles. Different cultures use different swords. Sometimes they use the same swords. *FMA uses katana-type swords, but they use them very differently as opposed to their JMA counterparts. Is it right then to say that FMA is wrong?* That they have bad form? Or to be the devil's advocate, is it right for FMA stylists to say that JMA stylists are wrong? That they have bad form, or no true understanding of how to wield a sword? I don't think it's true, or even fair to say that. I do not believe that "this" style is better than "that" style. There are no bad martial arts. Only bad students. Until you liberate your mind from such stylized thinking, you will never have an understanding of me or my style.



Pardon me, but I couldn't help but notice this comment, and I was curious, do you have some examples of this claim, bolded above?  I am unaware of a "katana-like" blade used in the FMA's.

Thanks.


----------



## DaleDugas

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> "Saying the jigen Ryu and Katori Shinto Ryu are the same as Chen taijiquan jian..."
> 
> Those false words. Please don't play coy with me. I know you're not here to learn anything. You wanted this opportunity to knit-pick at me. You wanted to knit-pick at my history. You wanted to knit-pick at my style. I posted these things in order to oblige you. I acknowledge and respect your opinion of my style, but I will not tolerate any disrespect. It's obvious you are throwing subtle insults into your analogy. That's fine and dandy, but I don't have to respond to it. You stood up for Dale when he was in the wrong. He got in trouble for it, and now you're mad at me. I'm no Einstein, but I'm not a complete idiot. That's okay. I don't really feel like I have to defend myself, or my style. It speaks for itself. Some martial artists will be fond of it. Some will not. You can go ahead and do all the knit-picking you want. As for me, I'm going out back to do some training. Good luck with your stylized investigations.



 I am not in the wrong son.  You have red flags popping up left and right.

You have come on a very public form spouting more fortune cookie bs than a Chinese Restaurant.

I did not get in trouble for it.  They locked the thread.  Big Difference.

You claim to be an "enforcer" for a local security agency, yet your pictures are of this stick thin little person.  

Who you enforcing at the local mall?

You are not an "enforcer", you are a deluded skinny person who seems to have left real teachers and now plays with friends in garages and back yards and claims to have founded a chinese based martial arts system without really training other than a little wing chun. 

Does Shifu Gallaher know you founded your own system?  

What would he say if we contacted him and showed him all these photos and posts?

You claim to have been studying for years but your posts state otherwise. You are an on again off again kind of student.

You show us you are a wannabe who should train more and stop claiming they founded their own system.

No one here believes you, son.  No one.  But keep digging that hole....


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> So you acknowledge you don't study an actual sword ryuha but basically you and some guys banging wooden swords in a backyard with out any authentic or qualified training. I don't think you can say you study wumingquan if someone is already teaching that and may have copied righted that name.
> 
> Again, you came on this site about your style you created and the claims and your pictures are up for people to question and critique, if I created my own style with some vague generalization, inconsistencies then you bet people would ask questions. I am not saying you are a fraud, what I am doing is trying to get a better understanding what you are trying to do, and educate the average person who may come on to this thread thinking there actually is a nhb traditional bokuto sword art. You can do what you want to however if you continue to make claims on a public forum, do not be surprised if people more knowledgeable on subjects comment on them.



So you acknowledge that you do not practice furīsutairu furu-sesshoku supāringu but basically you and some guys banging swords around differently in a Shinto-ryu dojo and Chen style taijiquan jian style with taolu and kata without any authentic freestyle full-contact sparring or training, with absolutely no experience in wumingquan (or in any style called wumingquan for that matter). And I'm pretty sure you can copyright a YouTube video. I'm not so sure you can copyright "wumingquan" especially if many people have different systems that are just as old by that name. Someone even mentioned that there is also a movie called wumingquan. You might want to inform that guy. Lol

Again I came on this site as a Wumingquan practitioner. I am not a JMA/FMA/JKD/MMA or kendo/kenjutsu practitioner. My authenticity was questioned by other members of this forum who challenged me through heavy interrogation and a barrage of scrutinizing questions, including even a few insults. So I obliged by answering the questions that were asked to the best of my ability. One member got into trouble for trolling my threads.

But now that I provided some information about myself, oh suddenly I'm not a fraud? Suddenly I'm not a liar? Suddenly my crappy style isn't so crappy. What changed everyone's minds all of a sudden? Is it the names of the people I claim to have trained with? Is it the pictures I shared? Is it my background in martial arts, or the fact I actually trained at several different schools under certified instructors? I noticed that nobody is really bashing me any more, regardless of whatever the reason is.

Instead, now the focus is on my background and the names of other martial artists in my circle. You just can't accept the fact that some people are different from you, can you? It bugs you to no end. You actually want a reason to scrutinize. You are going out of your way to find things that you don't like or agree with. That's the difference between you and me. I don't care as much as you do about stuff that isn't even important.

But what I really can't understand is how someone can claim they are more knowledgeable about a style they don't even practice (Lol). I don't come to your threads and scrutinize the way you train in Chen style taijiquan or Shinto-ryu kenjutsu. I don't practice those arts. So what gives you the right to question my style or the way I train? Seriously, you think you know all there is to know about using a bokuto? That's a very selfish claim, don't you think? The only misconceptions in this thread are the ones you brought with you. I practice Wumingquan, you do not. So maybe you and Dale should empty your cups and let me do the teaching here. Just saying.


----------



## oaktree

TwentyThree said:


> Pardon me, but I couldn't help but notice this comment, and I was curious, do you have some examples of this claim, bolded above?  I am unaware of a "katana-like" blade used in the FMA's.
> 
> Thanks.


Hey twenty three I guess FMA swords may appear more katana looking than say other swords to someone unfamiliar with swords, I will say my only exposure to FMA sword was the atienza style however the sword work was very different than how a katana is used


----------



## DaleDugas

You are deluded.

End of story.

You have not founded anything.

You are not an enforcer and you are not anyone that should be teaching and claiming they founded a martial arts system.

SMH


----------



## oaktree

Most sword schools if any practice in a way as you describe and if they decide to they already have a solid foundation.
I have not come across many who go all out freestyle sword fight simply that it really is to dangerous that's why kendo wears gear which even they follow rules.
In more advanced forms with weapons in Chinese arts they is more freestyle with weapons but only after a long time in training try like 10 years. The guy in the video learned from his teacher meaning someone was doing wumingquan style before you created it. As for copy right if someone decides to they can if they choose too. Making a movie that is in China may not have to follow copyright depends on the copyright and what you are doing it such as a movie portrayal.

Actually the other thread was closed and ya the name wumingquan sounded like a cartoon still and I do wonder why your family named you wei Wu or wuwei but hey whatever.  If I said I practice Chen taijiquan katana then yes by all means question me lol.  I don't know everything about the bokken but I can at least say you don't know go swinging it like a bat.


----------



## CB Jones

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> And I'm pretty sure you can copyright a YouTube video.



Correct



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I'm not so sure you can copyright "wumingquan"



I believe You would trademark the name not copyright it.


----------



## oaktree

To be honest wuwei you don't bother me, been in these boards so long seen so many guys come with a style they created just google shi shi Baguazhang and martial talk for example. You fit the classic style creator profile trained in some arts for a period of time, read jkd and read the laozi and created your own style. So when you came here telling us about your style name, the paradoxical nature of it, the weird nhb sword stuff we point it out. Most people who create their own style successfully do so after say 20 or 40 years and can clearly define what makes their style unique. In some ways it's like you learned some basics then said I'll call this wumingquan instead of wing chun and constantly change what wumingquan is. It's like playing a game with the kid who keeps changing the rules of what the game is then when people call him on it, he grabs his ball and goes home.


----------



## TwentyThree

oaktree said:


> Hey twenty three I guess FMA swords may appear more katana looking than say other swords to someone unfamiliar with swords, I will say my only exposure to FMA sword was the atienza style however the sword work was very different than how a katana is used


There are lots of different blades in the PI.  But a katana-like one I haven't seen (doesn't mean it doesn't exist...)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## oaktree

CB Jones said:


> Correct
> 
> 
> 
> I believe You would trademark the name not copyright it.


Here is one of my cartoon characters


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

I would say I was delusional if I claimed 30+ years of martial arts experience but couldn't even practice respect at a beginner level. I would say I was delusional if I tried to form an opinion about another martial artist based on gender, age, height or weight. I would say I was delusional if I thought I needed to ask someone else for permission to do my own thing. I would say I was delusional if I thought I knew more about someone's style than the founder does. I would say I was delusional if I spent all my time scrutinizing other martial artists than actually training. If that is the case, then yes I am delusional.

I have no further comments. I'm done talking to you about my style. It's obvious you don't even care. I don't even understand why you keep coming back or trolling my threads. I honestly don't look at your threads ay all. You don't even cross my mind. I'm too busy focussing on myself to worry about what you do. Just being honest.


----------



## oaktree

TwentyThree said:


> There are lots of different blades in the PI.  But a katana-like one I haven't seen (doesn't mean it doesn't exist...)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


A ginunting i guess would be the closest comparison if that is what wumingquan is referring to other than some slight resembling you are correct there is none.


----------



## oaktree

So if a style was founded by midgets can we not form an educated guess that they can't jump kick very high?


----------



## TwentyThree

oaktree said:


> A ginunting i guess would be the closest comparison if that is what wumingquan is referring to other than some slight resembling you are correct there is none.


That is what I was thinking but I could be wrong of course.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## CB Jones

oaktree said:


> Here is one of my cartoon characters



Ok?

I'm failing to see what point you are making


----------



## DanT

So in total (before teaching on your own in 2012):

-2 months TKD (1991)
-6 months Karate (1999)
-4 classes Fencing (2000)
-5 years Wing Chun (2000-2005)
-5 years MMA + FMA (2005-2010)

I don't feel like this is enough training to start your own style. I think the best thing for you is to find a good Wing Chun Sifu and finish your training. Then find a good teacher in another martial art and complete your training in that. Once you have reached a high level of skill in 3-4 martial arts, then create your own.


----------



## oaktree

CB Jones said:


> Ok?
> 
> I'm failing to see what point you are making


I was saying that my cartoon has a copyright for name over a trade mark


----------



## Tony Dismukes

DaleDugas said:


> So the brown belt who taught you was "rewarded" with the rank of master or senior instructor? Umm, he was a brown belt, how did he jump to master rank or sernior instructor rank?


Trying to stay within the bounds of the rules against fraudbusting here ...

If I'm following the story correctly, the brown belt who become an instructor was another student at Mr. Santella's school. (As was the "Judo/BJJ black belt" friend/instructor that MMGF did a lot of his work with.) Due to the MartialTalk prohibition on fraudbusting, I'm not going to publicly* go into the red flags I've found regarding Mr. Santella, but suffice it to say that it wouldn't even be surprising to see that sort of promotion going on.

If so, it's possible that a lot of the issues you're seeing with MMGF's understanding may go back to his previous head instructor.

*(Feel free to PM me for details.)


----------



## CB Jones

oaktree said:


> I was saying that my cartoon has a copyright for name over a trade mark



Right because it is a literary work or artists work.

For a business or school or organization etc you would get a trademark to protect someone else from using it.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

DanT said:


> So in total (before teaching on your own in 2012):
> 
> -2 months TKD (1991)
> -6 months Karate (1999)
> -4 classes Fencing (2000)
> -5 years Wing Chun (2000-2005)
> -5 years MMA + FMA (2005-2010)
> 
> I don't feel like this is enough training to start your own style. I think the best thing for you is to find a good Wing Chun Sifu and finish your training. Then find a good teacher in another martial art and complete your training in that. Once you have reached a high level of skill in 3-4 martial arts, then create your own.


Eh, a number of successful styles have been founded by people who started out with significantly _less_ training than that.

Of course, 99.5% of the individuals who create their own style with that sort of limited background lack the talent, brains, drive, spark, whatever to do a good job of it and their new system either fades away without making any impact or becomes the basis for a mediocre McDojo somewhere. It doesn't offend me as long as the person involved doesn't flat out lie about their background and qualifications. It's like small businesses. Most of them fail in the first year or two because the founder didn't understand the market or what was required or didn't have the talent or work ethic or whatever. A few go on to be great successes. So with martial arts.


----------



## Buka

Maybe this has nothing to do with the thread, but, I think to some extent,  a lot of non traditional Martial Artists, at least in striking arts, form their own way of teaching things. Maybe not a "style or a system", but it's unique to what they do and how they do it. Some really well known Martial Artists, too.


----------



## marques

Oh Tony, I admire your "fraudbusting" style and patience to explain even the basics. 


Tony Dismukes said:


> Most of them fail in the first year or two because the founder didn't understand the market or what was required or didn't have the talent or work ethic or whatever. A few go on to be great successes. So with martial arts.


Just adding something here. Martial skill is just a percentage of the skill required to be successful. A founder (leader, instructor...) needs to be charismatic and understand people and business. These 3 things alone perhaps brings more students than martial skill alone (with bad or no marketing and so on...).


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> So if a style was founded by midgets can we not form an educated guess that they can't jump kick very high?



What makes that an educated guess, and not a biased opinion? I wonder. But in short, "No," we can not make that biased opinion. For all we know, some midgets may have found a way to jump kick very high. If they have practiced Midget-style kickboxing for many years, regardless of whether they can kick very high or not, should I insult their style or make biased remarks based on their size? In short, "No," midgets have every right to be as passionate about their martial arts training as anyone else. But there you go, again, getting stuckup on stylized nonsense. I don't feel where you're coming from. All I feel is your skepticism and criticism. Which is fine, it doesn't bother me that you have questions. That's good. What bothers me is that I feel like you've trained for so long in what you do that you have actually become biased. You are stuck in your ways, and incapable of seeing anything else that does not fit in accordance with your ways. You are more interested in pressing your education on to others, rather than opening up your mind (emptying your cup) in order to learn new things. You keep spitting out names, schools, forms, styles, etc. You are completely off track and out of bounds. You can not taste my tea, until you empty your cup. If you are not interested in my tea, why come to my teahouse? There are plenty of other teahouses on this forum. I don't go to your teahouse and spit in your tea. So again, I have nothing really left to say to you guys. I'm not answering any more of your questions about me personally, my martial arts history, or the style that I practice now. You have lost my patience with your investigations.

If anyone else has any questions in regards to wumingquan or myself, feel free to PM me and I will oblige.

Thank you for your time.


----------



## TwentyThree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> What makes that an educated guess, and not a biased opinion? I wonder. But in short, "No," we can not make that biased opinion. For all we know, some midgets may have found a way to jump kick very high. If they have practiced Midget-style kickboxing for many years, regardless of whether they can kick very high or not, should I insult their style or make biased remarks based on their size? In short, "No," midgets have every right to be as passionate about their martial arts training as anyone else. But there you go, again, getting stuckup on stylized nonsense. I don't feel where you're coming from. All I feel is your skepticism and criticism. Which is fine, it doesn't bother me that you have questions. That's good. What bothers me is that I feel like you've trained for so long in what you do that you have actually become biased. You are stuck in your ways, and incapable of seeing anything else that does not fit in accordance with your ways. You are more interested in pressing your education on to others, rather than opening up your mind (emptying your cup) in order to learn new things. You keep spitting out names, schools, forms, styles, etc. You are completely off track and out of bounds. You can not taste my tea, until you empty your cup. If you are not interested in my tea, why come to my teahouse? There are plenty of other teahouses on this forum. I don't go to your teahouse and spit in your tea. So again, I have nothing really left to say to you guys. I'm not answering any more of your questions about me personally, my martial arts history, or the style that I practice now. You have lost my patience with your investigations.
> 
> If anyone else has any questions in regards to wumingquan or myself, feel free to PM me and I will oblige.
> 
> Thank you for your time.



Would you mind, please, answering my question about katana-like blades in the FMA's?  Thanks.


----------



## marques

Buka said:


> Maybe this has nothing to do with the thread, but, I think to some extent,  a lot of non traditional Martial Artists, at least in striking arts, *form their own way of teaching things.* Maybe not a "style or a system", but it's unique to what they do and how they do it. Some really well known Martial Artists, too.


Not two people are the same, nor have the same body. Everyone performs on his own way. Regardless the style. Some transmit what they learned as similar as possible, some put their personal print more freely (which may be better or not)...


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

TwentyThree said:


> Would you mind, please, answering my question about katana-like blades in the FMA's?  Thanks.



I don't practice FMA, so maybe you should ask someone who practices FMA (and I think someone already answered you, so you might want to research what they said first - I'm not an expert in FMA).


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu




----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> What makes that an educated guess, and not a biased opinion? I wonder. But in short, "No," we can not make that biased opinion. For all we know, some midgets may have found a way to jump kick very high. If they have practiced Midget-style kickboxing for many years, regardless of whether they can kick very high or not, should I insult their style or make biased remarks based on their size? In short, "No," midgets have every right to be as passionate about their martial arts training as anyone else. But there you go, again, getting stuckup on stylized nonsense. I don't feel where you're coming from. All I feel is your skepticism and criticism. Which is fine, it doesn't bother me that you have questions. That's good. What bothers me is that I feel like you've trained for so long in what you do that you have actually become biased. You are stuck in your ways, and incapable of seeing anything else that does not fit in accordance with your ways. You are more interested in pressing your education on to others, rather than opening up your mind (emptying your cup) in order to learn new things. You keep spitting out names, schools, forms, styles, etc. You are completely off track and out of bounds. You can not taste my tea, until you empty your cup. If you are not interested in my tea, why come to my teahouse? There are plenty of other teahouses on this forum. I don't go to your teahouse and spit in your tea. So again, I have nothing really left to say to you guys. I'm not answering any more of your questions about me personally, my martial arts history, or the style that I practice now. You have lost my patience with your investigations.
> 
> If anyone else has any questions in regards to wumingquan or myself, feel free to PM me and I will oblige.
> 
> Thank you for your time.



You set up a tea shop and sell horse water as tea then get upset that I tell the town people you are selling horse water you then say I don't understand your tea even if I am highly qualified(actually i am a tea snob and I drink only high end tea). You are welcome to my tea house anytime but my tea is high end high quality high price.


----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I don't practice FMA, so maybe you should ask someone who practices FMA (and I think someone already answered you, so you might want to research what they said first - I'm not an expert in FMA).


"FMA uses katana-type swords, but they use them very differently as opposed to their JMA counterparts. Is it right then to say that FMA is wrong? That they have bad form. "
This was your words couple pages back.


----------



## TwentyThree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I don't practice FMA, so maybe you should ask someone who practices FMA (and I think someone already answered you, so you might want to research what they said first).



Actually, you're the one who claimed:



> FMA uses katana-type swords, but they use them very differently as opposed to their JMA counterparts. Is it right then to say that FMA is wrong? That they have bad form? Or to be the devil's advocate, is it right for FMA stylists to say that JMA stylists are wrong? That they have bad form, or no true understanding of how to wield a sword?



*That's why I asked you.*   If  you're going to make a claim, surely you have a source for it, right?

I am an active FMA player and I study kobudo. I'm kind of a weapons nerd. That's why I perked up at this claim, and am wondering where it came from, as it's news to me.

Thanks!


----------



## DaleDugas

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> View attachment 20598


Speaking like a fortune cookie does not make you anything but a fortune cookie speaking dope.

You are a wannabe.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Tony Dismukes said:


> Trying to stay within the bounds of the rules against fraudbusting here ... it's possible that a lot of the issues you're seeing with MMGF's understanding may go back to his previous head instructor.
> 
> *(Feel free to PM me for details.)



You know, I sent a PM to DaleDugas offering to meetup with him in person (not to fight, but to talk peacefully) regarding GM Santella and some of the other guys I've trained with. GM Santella and I do not live very far from Dale, and neither one of us are very hard to find. You will see GM Santella's school (and off-shoot schools affiliated with it) advertised on the side of public buses, park benches, billboards and signs throughout Florida, and although his address is open to the public (the doors are always open), I don't think anyone I know has ever once challenged his authenticity. But anyways, I digress, as I'm no longer a member of that gym.

But I admire your efforts to bash the man privately in secret like a ninja in hiding. You must really have some bad blood with this guy. "Why?" is the question. But anyway, I don't have to defend GM Santella's honor. He's fully capable of handling himself. But I will point out the fact of what you're secretly trying to do here. If that is your prerogative, then go right ahead. I won't stop you.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

"FMA uses katana-type swords..."

Is that what I said? Perhaps I should have said "katana-like," though I doubt it would've made any difference what I said since people will only interpret words from their own personal perspectives. But I stand by what I said, regardless. Again, I am not an expert at FMA (for the 6th or 7th time), so I don't know the FMA term for such blades. To me, they looked like katanas back in the day. All I know is what I said before. "FMA uses katana-type swords, but they use them very differently as opposed to their JMA counterparts." That is what I said, you are correct and I stand by that statement. If you want a better answer, ask someone else who does FMA.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> But I admire your efforts to bash the man privately in secret like a ninja in hiding. You must really have some bad blood with this guy. "Why?" is the question. But anyway, I don't have to defend GM Santella's honor. He's fully capable of handling himself. But I will point out the fact of what you're secretly trying to do here. If that is your prerogative, then go right ahead.
> 
> I won't stop you.


No bad blood. I never heard of the guy before you mentioned him. I just did some research in order to get an idea of where you were coming from.

As far as why I'm not publicly listing the various red flags I found, it's because the Martial Talk terms of service prohibit fraudbusting. I agreed to those terms of service when I joined the site and I do my best to follow them. It's nothing to do with whether you would want to stop me.


----------



## marques

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> You know, I sent a PM to DaleDugas offering to meetup with him in person (not to fight, but to talk peacefully) regarding GM Santella and some of the other guys I've trained with. GM Santella and I do not live very far from Dale, and neither one of us are very hard to find. You will see GM Santella's school (and off-shoot schools affiliated with it) advertised on the side of public buses, park benches, billboards and signs throughout Florida, and although his address is open to the public (the doors are always open), I don't think anyone I know has ever once challenged his authenticity. But anyways, I digress, as I'm no longer a member of that gym.
> 
> But I admire your efforts to bash the man privately in secret like a ninja in hiding. You must really have some bad blood with this guy. "Why?" is the question. But anyway, I don't have to defend GM Santella's honor. He's fully capable of handling himself. But I will point out the fact of what you're secretly trying to do here. If that is your prerogative, then go right ahead. I won't stop you.


BJJ quality control (aka BJJ police).   You should know it.

Tony is just investigating. Nothing personal, I guess.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

DanT said:


> So in total (before teaching on your own in 2012):
> 
> -2 months TKD (1991)
> -6 months Karate (1999)
> -4 classes Fencing (2000)
> -5 years Wing Chun (2000-2005)
> -5 years MMA + FMA (2005-2010)
> 
> I don't feel like this is enough training to start your own style. I think the best thing for you is to find a good Wing Chun Sifu and finish your training. Then find a good teacher in another martial art and complete your training in that. Once you have reached a high level of skill in 3-4 martial arts, then create your own.


Thank you. I had been trying to figure this out.
I have more than his entire training time in just one art, and I still would feel like a fraud teaching it.


----------



## CB Jones

Does this mean the train wreck is almost over?


----------



## TwentyThree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> "FMA uses katana-type swords..."
> 
> Is that what I said? Perhaps I should have said "katana-like," though I doubt it would've made any difference what I said since people will only interpret words from their own personal perspectives. But I stand by what I said, regardless. Again, I am not an expert at FMA (for the 6th or 7th time), so I don't know the FMA term for such blades. To me, they looked like katanas back in the day. All I know is what I said before. "FMA uses katana-type swords, but they use them very differently as opposed to their JMA counterparts." That is what I said, you are correct and I stand by that statement. If you want a better answer, ask someone else who does FMA.



I see.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

marques said:


> BJJ quality control (aka BJJ police).   You should know it.
> 
> Tony is just investigating. Nothing personal, I guess.



I'm going to give this the benefit of a doubt and talk about something that has nothing at all to do with me or my style. I don't want to, but here I go.

GM Santella does not make claims about himself. He does not go on the internet trying to make claims, nor is he interested in talking on a martial arts forum. GM Santella was a law enforcement officer the last time I saw him. He runs a school called S.D.S.I. ("Street Defense Systems Institute") in Florida, which offers classes in several different martial arts. It's a big name school and a lot of the local MMA fighters come from that school. In fact, other martial artists and masters have travelled all around the world from Hawaii, Japan, Brazil and other countries just to train at GM Santella's school. In regards to Brazilian Jiujitsu it is very possible that a few BJJ black-belt holders or masters visited S.D.S.I. in order to train with GM Santella, and also very possible that some of them stayed at S.D.S.I. afterwards to teach BJJ classes at GM Santella's gym. There are many rooms in that dojo where many different classes are being taught by certified instructors. It's almost comparable to an early-era Jing Mo institute, with several masters of different styles all teaching their own unique systems. As I mentioned before, I never had any reason to question that school's authenticity. I didn't exactly do a background check. If you guys want to do your own background check, go right ahead. But I doubt you will find much information on the internet in regards to what really goes on at GM Santella's gym. Like me, they are more concerned with training than with politics.

I hope this helps at least somewhat. I can actually almost hear GM Santella's voice right now, telling me to quit worrying what people say, get off the internet and go train (lol). I think I'll listen to this voice in my head. It's calling me into the backyard. See you guys later.


----------



## CB Jones

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> In fact, other martial artists and masters have travelled all around the world from Hawaii, Japan, Brazil and other countries just to train at GM Santella's school. In regards to Brazilian Jiujitsu it is very possible that a few BJJ black-belt holders or masters visited S.D.S.I. in order to train with GM Santella, and also very possible that some of them stayed at S.D.S.I. afterwards to teach BJJ classes at GM Santella's gym. There are many rooms in that dojo where many different classes are being taught by certified instructors. It's almost comparable to an early-era Jing Mo institute, with several masters of different styles all teaching their own unique systems.



I gonna need some popcorn for this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> Does this mean the train wreck is almost over?


Probably not.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Please pardon my vagueness. Some of the aforementioned recollections of my history are obscurely faded from memory (in other words, I forgot lol). I didn't keep many records back then, and to be frankly honest, I don't keep many records now. Wumingquan is the personal expression of the person who is teaching it to his family. I don't really need to record most events.

As far as my history is concerned, there is some confusion among members of this forum. All I can say is that you are asking me to dig through memories from many years ago. I can tell you that some of the dates probably criss-cross at some point. There were days when I'd train at one gym by day and then go to a different gym that very same night. There was also a lot of cross-training in different styles. Sometimes I would leave a school for many years, and then go back to it. A lot of knowledge exchange took place amongst some fellow martial artists who liked to help each other learn new things. A lot of experimenting and openness to all things MA related.

Sometimes we would practice WCK techniques while holding FMA weapons (as opposed to WC butterfly swords), or we'd practice FMA concepts while holding JMA weapons (like the bokuto). Sometimes we practiced gun disarms. Most of the time we didn't even practice with weapons (we would train unarmed, then just practice the same techniques while holding a knife for example). I had an exposure to many different styles and teachings. I can properly demonstrate and apply techniques that I don't even know the names of (lol). I researched my own experience. I absorbed what was useful. I discarded what was useless. I added what was specifically my own. Nothing more and nothing less. I apologize for any confusion.


----------



## DanT

kempodisciple said:


> Thank you. I had been trying to figure this out.
> I have more than his entire training time in just one art, and I still would feel like a fraud teaching it.


The way I see it, if you never learn to cook Chinese food properly, and then never learn to cook Italian food properly, and then dabble in some Korean cooking for 6 months, you wind up with a bad case of salmonella, and not good food.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Wei Wu style Mou Meng Gung Fu is a non-classical martial art system. Mou Meng Kuen (Cantonese for "Nameless Boxing") has been a family tradition for over a decade. Brother Wei Wu has trained in several martial art systems from various schools. He has training manuals, trophies and certificates in various styles under different masters and grandmasters. Brother Wei Wu is also the founder of what he now calls "Mou Meng Gung Fu," in order to prevent his siblings from stunting their growth by becoming stylized or opinionated. In this style, the system is molded to the individual. The individual is not molded to the style. They are expected to learn new techniques, and to test those techniques when training. Brother Wu Wei does not claim to be a master of martial arts. He also did not give his art a traditional ranking system. MMGF practitioners are refered to simply as brothers and sisters, juniors and seniors. He refuses to make a profit or teach Mou Meng Gung Fu to outsiders or the general public. This makes Mou Meng Kuen a secretive martial art with obscure training methods. Naturally, other schools question its authenticity and methodology. Brother Wei Wu's school only questions Mou Meng Kuen's methodology as they are always too busy training, sparring and experimenting with different tactics to answer to skeptics and politics. Brother Wei Wu wishes his art to stay alive and evolve with time.


----------



## BuckerooBonzai

I think we are about here in the train wreck process.


----------



## BuckerooBonzai

I think I can understand where Dr. Dugas is coming from. 

He appears to me (I do not know him at all and only know a bit of his background from what I have read here on the forum) to have devoted many decades to the study of CMA/culture/medicine and is extremely knowledgeable and to see someone making claims that are contradictory and VERY ostentatious are bothersome and irritating. 

We have the same thing in the military when we see people spotting off about their "Years of deployments in the sandbox with blood and guts everywhere" and then you find out that they have either never even deployed or never went outside the wire or only "deployed" to Kuwait.  Now if you want to see someone taken down in public viscously, look at some of the Stolen Valour stuff.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

DanT said:


> So in total (before teaching on your own in 2012):
> 
> -2 months TKD (1991)
> -6 months Karate (1999)
> -4 classes Fencing (2000)
> -5 years Wing Chun (2000-2005)
> -5 years MMA + FMA (2005-2010)
> 
> I don't feel like this is enough training to start your own style. I think the best thing for you is to find a good Wing Chun Sifu and finish your training. Then find a good teacher in another martial art and complete your training in that. Once you have reached a high level of skill in 3-4 martial arts, then create your own.



I did not learn much TKD in the 90's (actually I'm learning it now from George W. Adkins to be honest). I also recieved a TKD instructor's manual passed down to me by one of Sabum Richard Marcelin's students from the ATA (which has more in common with the ITF than WTF) and practiced many TKD-like kicks and exercises during my time in MMA throughout the years.

As for Okinawan Kara-te, that is a style I only use now for demonstrations and counter drills. I did receive about 6 months of 1-on-1 private backyard training (more or less) equivalent to maybe 2 years (more or less) of someone who only attended a Karate class in a Dojo three times a week. In those 6 months, I trained in traditional Shotokan Karate until my white belt turned into a red belt (or brown belt) naturally from all of the blood, sweat and dirt. It was actually very difficult making the switch from Kara-te to Kung-fu, and even today I feel like I am sometimes too rigid as a result of Kara-te.

As for fencing, I learned quite a bit through slicing/deflecting drills, freestyle full-contact sparring with different weapons, using different methods and styles, and through light-contact simulation sparring. I had exposure to Spanish saber-fencing, Japanese bokuto-fencing, and Filipino rattan-fencing for a time period before training on my own. Most of the techniques I use for gun disarms, I learned from FMA knife-sparring (using either metal spoons, dull butter knives or unloaded guns). I also use some fencing principles in my footwork, broken rhythm, lead jab and cadence. I picked those up from JKD and Spanish fencing. Other than that, I don't practice much fencing. My art is more focussed on un-armed street defense than it is on weapons training. But I do count my many years of experience in JKD (which is missing from your list) as part of my training also.

You also forgot to mention Western Boxing and Judo/Jujutsu/Aikido, which I also took as seperate classes apart from MMA (and I am still a student of Judo/Jujutsu/Aikido to this day, despite being the founder of MMGF).

I just wanted to clarify all that.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

BuckerooBonzai said:


> I think I can understand where Dr. Dugas is coming from... to see someone making claims that are contradictory and VERY ostentatious are bothersome and irritating.



Contradictory, maybe on some levels, yes. But ostentatious? Really? I don't think that's fair. Ostentatious implies saying things in order to seek attention by boasting or showboating. A lot of skeptic remarks were made and questions were asked simply because I _wasn't_ showing off or saying anything. I got scrutinized for it and called a fraud. All I did was answer the questions that were asked. Now you say I'm being VERY ostentatious and bothersome? Well, can't please everyone I guess. 

Look man, I didn't come here to show off, or to be punked around by a gang of bullies on a MA forum. I came here to be around like-minded individuals with a sincere honesty for learning martial arts. I'm here to learn, to exchange perspectives and gain knowledge. I'm not sure what other purpose anyone would have for being here, to be quite frank.


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## BuckerooBonzai

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Contradictory, maybe on some levels, yes. But ostentatious? Really? I don't think that's fair. Ostentatious implies saying things in order to seek attention by boasting or showboating. A lot of skeptic remarks were made and questions were asked simply because I _wasn't_ showing off or saying anything. I got scrutinized for it and called a fraud. All I did was answer the questions that were asked. Now you say I'm being VERY ostentatious and bothersome?



You know, I actually really thought about exactly what adjective to use in that sentence (I really am putting too much effort into this whole thing ... God only knows why?) and after reading almost all of the posts in your three (four?) threads, that was the one word that really jumped out at me.

Now I was not an English major (my wife was the Phi Beta Kappa English major) so maybe I am wrong but in my opinion (and I am not calling you a fraud or fake or anything, not even a bad person) you seem to have been very ostentatious in your threads. 

Just my opinion but it might be one of the reasons you seem to have drawn as much fire as you have here.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

BuckerooBonzai said:


> You know, I actually really thought about exactly what adjective to use in that sentence (I really am putting too much effort into this whole thing ... God only knows why?) and after reading almost all of the posts in your three (four?) threads, that was the one word that really jumped out at me.
> 
> Now I was not an English major (my wife was the Phi Beta Kappa English major) so maybe I am wrong but in my opinion (and I am not calling you a fraud or fake or anything, not even a bad person) you seem to have been very ostentatious in your threads.
> 
> Just my opinion but it might be one of the reasons you seem to have drawn as much fire as you have here.



I'm sorry you feel that way. I really didn't mean to sound ostentatious. Honestly I don't mean to. I'm not that good with internet communication skills myself, so I understand what you mean by trying to find the right words sometimes. I will admit it is very difficult to communicate on-line. What could I do to improve my internet social skills in order to prevent these sort of misunderstandings in the future? I don't mind asking questions, providing answers and engaging in forum-based conversations. However, I want to make sure that my difference in style and grammar is not confusing to others. It is very difficult to relate to practitioners of other styles (especially in any of the styles I mentioned as part of my previous MA training) because when I for example say that I had some exposure to JMA or FMA, other martial artists from JMA or FMA traditions tend to automatically assume that I am still a modern-day practitioner of such traditions, rather than someone who has simply borrowed JMA or FMA elements and modified them to work fluidly with his own personal expression in martial arts (i.e. my experience with Karate, in which I had to discard almost the entire system in order to learn WCK). Even now, I feel like I am perhaps using a bad choice of words here. So how can I correct myself when making posts in order to prevent any misconceptions? I tried doing away with the mentioning of any style altogether as I felt that it might bring about misconceptions from the experts in those styles if I mentioned them. I refer to my own style as MMK in an attempt to break away from those other styles and traditions. KMA, JMA, CMA, JKD, FMA, MMA, etc. etc. etc. I may have had some training in those styles in the past, but style-wise, they have very little to do with the martial art I practice now (or have been practicing since at least 2007). I really hope to get that point across to anyone who plans to do research into my art, because as I had mentioned before, MMK should not be confused with other martial arts, even if some of our weapons and techniques do sound similar.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I did not learn much TKD in the 90's (actually I'm learning it now from George W. Adkins to be honest). I also recieved a TKD instructor's manual passed down to me by one of Sabum Richard Marcelin's students from the ATA (which has more in common with the ITF than WTF) and practiced many TKD-like kicks and exercises during my time in MMA throughout the years.
> 
> As for Okinawan Kara-te, that is a style I only use now for demonstrations and counter drills. I did receive about 6 months of 1-on-1 private backyard training (more or less) equivalent to maybe 2 years (more or less) of someone who only attended a Karate class in a Dojo three times a week. In those 6 months, I trained in traditional Shotokan Karate until my white belt turned into a red belt (or brown belt) naturally from all of the blood, sweat and dirt. It was actually very difficult making the switch from Kara-te to Kung-fu, and even today I feel like I am sometimes too rigid as a result of Kara-te.
> 
> As for fencing, I learned quite a bit through slicing/deflecting drills, freestyle full-contact sparring with different weapons, using different methods and styles, and through light-contact simulation sparring. I had exposure to Spanish saber-fencing, Japanese bokuto-fencing, and Filipino rattan-fencing for a time period before training on my own. Most of the techniques I use for gun disarms, I learned from FMA knife-sparring (using either metal spoons, dull butter knives or unloaded guns). I also use some fencing principles in my footwork, broken rhythm, lead jab and cadence. I picked those up from JKD and Spanish fencing. Other than that, I don't practice much fencing. My art is more focussed on un-armed street defense than it is on weapons training. But I do count my many years of experience in JKD (which is missing from your list) as part of my training also.
> 
> You also forgot to mention Western Boxing and Judo/Jujutsu/Aikido, which I also took as seperate classes apart from MMA (and I am still a student of Judo/Jujutsu/Aikido to this day, despite being the founder of MMGF).
> 
> I just wanted to clarify all that.


So at 14 years old, you trained until your belt literally turned red from blood, and got the equivalent of 2 years of practice in 6 months? 

Also, to clarify, why did you like my comment that I feel unqualified to teach, when I have more training in one art than you have in all of your arts? Are you agreeing with me that that amount of training does not make you qualified to teach? If you're creating your own style, I would hope you have a minimum of 10-15 years training in multiple arts (and I would not count anything below the age of 16 personally for that, although that's a topic for debate).


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## Buka




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## TwentyThree

So, here's why some of us are reacting... skeptically... to the things you've said here.  I'll narrow it down to what I can speak about with a little knowledge, as I don't have much of a background in KMA. JMA outside of kobudo (and I'm still a newb there), MMA, etc.

You said, specifically, you don't study FMA but you've borrowed "the concepts".  So basically, you've borrowed things from something you said you don't study.  I can tell you, after having studied for nearly nine years now, that it is highly unlikely that you've borrowed a "concept" from the FMA's.  You've copied a _technique _either someone showed you (very common to see this for FMA's), or you picked up off the internet via the YouTube dojo.  This is not the same thing as a "concept".

A martial arts style is more than a simple collection of techniques, that you can pick from this and that, pull it all together, and call it a new style. It's a series of perceptions and opinions about violence (how it happens and how to cope with it), strategic choices, and a viewpoint of the world, often developed under very specific conditions.  Within the FMA world, there are literally more styles than I can possibly name here, and often, the only thing we have in common with each other are the tools. The concepts - and what we think is important - can vary widely.

That being said, there isn't really anything that unique in the FMA's that can't be found in other styles when you look at techniques (in my specific lineage, it's one of our sayings - "It is all the same").  What we do exists in every other style in some way.  What makes an FMA style _a style_ (and in fact, makes any martial arts style a style), is how we organize our training, what strategy we employ in dealing with violence, and principles that form how we look at the world.  That's when the deeper meaning - the CONCEPTS of what we do - come to light.  By your own words, you haven't studied any of this.

You are basically doing wing chun with sticks.  Nothing wrong with that in principle, but it's not FMA's.

I think none of us care much if you want to do your own thing - plenty of us do that.  If it's you and your buddies playing around in a back yard or a garage, no harm done (except to yourselves, maybe, but you're a grownup).  Where it's bothersome is that you claim you are synthesizing _concepts _from styles you haven't seriously studied into your personal style.  You've made statements as fact that aren't true.  And you want us to take you seriously as a founder of a style, obviously.

That's going to get a reaction - and you got it.

Best of luck to you in your training.


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## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> *Wei Wu style Mou Meng Gung Fu *is a non-classical martial art system. Mou Meng Kuen (Cantonese for "Nameless Boxing") has been a family tradition for over a decade. Brother Wei Wu has trained in several martial art systems from various schools. He has training manuals, trophies and certificates in various styles under different masters and grandmasters. Brother Wei Wu is also the founder of what* he now calls "Mou Meng Gung Fu,*" in order to prevent his siblings from stunting their growth by *becoming stylized or opinionated*. In *this style*, the system is molded to the individual. The individual is not molded to the style. They are expected to learn new techniques, and to test those techniques when training. Brother Wu Wei does not claim to be a master of martial arts. He also did not give his art a traditional ranking system. MMGF practitioners are refered to simply as brothers and sisters, juniors and seniors. He refuses to make a profit or teach Mou Meng Gung Fu to outsiders or the general public. This *makes Mou Meng Kuen a secretive martial art with obscure training method*s. Naturally, other schools question its authenticity and methodology. Brother Wei Wu's school only questions Mou Meng Kuen's methodology as they are always too busy training, sparring and experimenting with different tactics to answer to skeptics and politics. Brother Wei Wu wishes his art to stay alive and evolve with time.


What I am reading from this is that there is 2 names for this now Wei wu style mou meng gungfu and mou meng gungfu? when you put your name in front and then style it is to show difference from another style such as Chen style taijiquan or yang style taijiquan. One second mou meng is a style then its not a style then its a secret martial art but its being talked about on a public forum so confusing.


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## Gerry Seymour

DanT said:


> The way I see it, if you never learn to cook Chinese food properly, and then never learn to cook Italian food properly, and then dabble in some Korean cooking for 6 months, you wind up with a bad case of salmonella, and not good food.


Or, perhaps, you end up taking just a couple of notes from each and creating an interesting new dish or two that you can produce well. You won't be highly skilled at any one of them, but the knowledge can still be cumulative. I wouldn't expect the average student to progress on that level of learning, but I've met a couple of instructors with only 3 years of experience in their art who were actually quite good at teaching the basics of that art, and with a depth of understanding I wouldn't normally expect from someone with so little experience. One of them had some experience in other arts (a bit less broad than the OP, but a mixture), and the other had only some dabblings besides his 3 1/2 years in his art. Both were competent instructors.

As for starting one's own style, that's just a matter of being able to bring pieces together that work well in combination under a unified set of principles. I've seen it done well, and I've seen it done badly. Experience doesn't seem to be proof against the latter.


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## hoshin1600

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I really didn't mean to sound ostentatious.


so you dont think you sound like this..


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Ostentatious implies saying things in order to seek attention by boasting or showboating.


but you post this....


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I really hope to get that point across to anyone who plans to do research into my art, because as I had mentioned before, MMK should not be confused with other martial arts, even if some of our weapons and techniques do sound similar.


trust me at this point no one gives a hoot about "researching " you art.   what does that mean ...why did you use the term research?   as if its a legit treasure that needs to be discovered.  a non ostentatious person would have said in any is interested in what i do.


then you post this ... and i can honestly say no one cares what any individual practices.  the point is you make posts that are deceptive and inflated to sound better than what the reality is.


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> As for Okinawan Kara-te, that is a style I only use now for demonstrations and counter drills. I did receive about 6 months of 1-on-1 private backyard training (more or less) equivalent to maybe 2 years (more or less) of someone who only attended a Karate class in a Dojo three times a week. In those 6 months, I trained in traditional Shotokan Karate until my white belt turned into a red belt (or brown belt) naturally from all of the blood, sweat and dirt.



for starters you never trained in Okinawan anything. you said you trained in the back yard with someone who new Shotokan which by definition is a mainland Japanese art. the fact that you didnt know that says something to me.
you practiced for 6 months, PERIOD   six months is not 2 years.  you think because it was in your back yard 1 on 1 that somehow that is better. well i can tell you from experience its not. it just isnt.
then that ostentatious pops up again....you trained so much and so hard your white belt was stained red... seriously ?  come on.  that makes you sound like a wannabe.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> He has training manuals, trophies and certificates in various styles under different masters and grandmasters.


again with the wannabe language. no one takes you have a manual as anything other than bravado BS. it means nothing.  trophies?  no one cares.  you didnt say you won anything, you said you have a trophy. big deal 
and your karate was with a brown belt stop saying you studied under so many masters its annoying


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## Grenadier

*Admin's Note:*

This thread is now closed.  No further replies will be accepted.  

On a side note, if you do not like what someone has to say about your training, then it's entirely within your own power to use the "Ignore" feature that is part of the Xenforo forum software.


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