# Daito Ryu & Asayama Ichiden Ryu



## Guy Preston

I've just watched an interview with Tanemura Shoto sensei (Genbukan/KJJR) where he discussed similarities between Daito Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu.

He mentions that both originate in Aizu, and I've read somewhere else that Takeda Sokaku may have used Asayama Ichiden Ryu to help arrange Daito Ryu into a simply categorised system.

I personally don't really see the similarities? Apart from AIR's Shoden kata 'Ete Nage' and Chuden kata 'Gyakute Nage' both resembling DR's 'Kote Gaeshi'...

I've seen and read a number of times Kondo Katsuyuki saying that it's very important in DR to off balance your opponent the moment you come into contact, yet in Asayama Ichiden Ryu there are often preparation movements in kata before opponents are off balanced.

Also in AIR many of the Taijutsu kata are the way they are because of the applications using hishigi, that doesn't seem to be the case with DR.

Can anyone add any input regarding similarities between the two, or evidence of there being connections between the two?...


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## Chris Parker

Hi Guy,

Firstly, I'd like to ask how much exposure to either Asayama Ichiden Ryu or Daito Ryu you have... then, of course, clarify which lines of each you're talking about. But to address a couple of things in your post, Takeda Sokuku didn't really arrange anything in Daito Ryu (let alone anything in Daito Ryu being classed "simply"!), as the bulk of that was done by his son, Tokimune.

In terms of similarities, there are connections with the reiho, as well as a some similarities in tactical approaches. The prevalence of focus on joint locks over throws, particularly aimed towards the wrists, and so on are what I'd look to over simple similarities of techniques.


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## Guy Preston

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Guy,
> 
> Firstly, I'd like to ask how much exposure to either Asayama Ichiden Ryu or Daito Ryu you have... then, of course, clarify which lines of each you're talking about. But to address a couple of things in your post, Takeda Sokuku didn't really arrange anything in Daito Ryu (let alone anything in Daito Ryu being classed "simply"!), as the bulk of that was done by his son, Tokimune.
> 
> In terms of similarities, there are connections with the reiho, as well as a some similarities in tactical approaches. The prevalence of focus on joint locks over throws, particularly aimed towards the wrists, and so on are what I'd look to over simple similarities of techniques.



Hi Chris,

I am in no way an authority in either system above - I have done some training in both, and through seminars, Genbukan vids, Kondo Katsuyuki vids/books/articles, Kato Shiyemitsu vids, etc... have built up some understanding (as I find it of interest I pretty much watch and read anything I come across, but don't profess this to be understanding anywhere near the level of being a part of the Ryu, or a substitute for training, etc... it's just an interesting topic for me, hence the question if anyone can shed any more light)  

I just found the point about the two coming from the same place, and similarities to be an interesting topic... thought could be a good discussion... 

What's your exposure like? Am I right in thinking your org originates with Bujinkan training?

Regarding the categorising of the system, as I said it was something that sprung into my memory while watching the interview, I think I just remembered wrong - as I'm aware of Tokimune doing alot of work in that area - thanks for the claification...Do you know though, if Asayama Ichiden Ryu was actually an influence in the way he did this? or do you think that is hearsay?

In regard to the similarities - thanks for the pointers, I was considering at too much of a superficial level. 
I guess there is an argument though, that if you take it too far the other way, you could pretty much say that most systems have similarities in one way or another.

But why have these 2 been singled out? I think that's were the area they originated comes in though as a factor, as you mentioned Reiho being similar I'd guess that is probably a reflection of the area? The same perhaps with the preference for certain techniques over others?..


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## Guy Preston

Description of Iwaki Hideo's Asayama Ichiden Ryu book on Amazon...
_'Takeda Sokaku apparently re-arranged the curriculumn of Daito Ryu during the Meiji era into a more comprehensive format based on Asayama Ichiden Ryu. Keishi Ryu, which was created by the Japanese Police School, adopted the technique maegoshi of Asayama Ichiden Ryu as one of their five basic techniques' 

_This was bugging me, as could clearly remember reading somewhere a while back that it was Takeda Sokaku who was influenced by Asayama Ichiden Ryu.... As it turns out, I did read that, it's just a shame the source wasn't too reliable!!.... at least I know it's not my memory that was at fault!!!


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## Troy Wideman

Hello Guy,

As Chris stated, I am curious as to your ranking in Asayama Ichiden Ryu? I am currently training the Menkyo level and can see similarities. 
One thing that is for sure is that one of the main martial arts (Ryu Ha) in the Aizu area was Asayama Ichiden Ryu. There is tons of information about Sokaku Takeda (Sorry if I misspelt his name), having trained in the martial arts of the area. Therefore, I think it is easy to say he would have been exposed to this art. As to the extent it affected Daito Ryu, who knows. However, both arts have similarities as well as differences.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman



Ninniku Dojo said:


> I've just watched an interview with Tanemura Shoto sensei (Genbukan/KJJR) where he discussed similarities between Daito Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu.
> 
> He mentions that both originate in Aizu, and I've read somewhere else that Takeda Sokaku may have used Asayama Ichiden Ryu to help arrange Daito Ryu into a simply categorised system.
> 
> I personally don't really see the similarities? Apart from AIR's Shoden kata 'Ete Nage' and Chuden kata 'Gyakute Nage' both resembling DR's 'Kote Gaeshi'...
> 
> I've seen and read a number of times Kondo Katsuyuki saying that it's very important in DR to off balance your opponent the moment you come into contact, yet in Asayama Ichiden Ryu there are often preparation movements in kata before opponents are off balanced.
> 
> Also in AIR many of the Taijutsu kata are the way they are because of the applications using hishigi, that doesn't seem to be the case with DR.
> 
> Can anyone add any input regarding similarities between the two, or evidence of there being connections between the two?...


----------



## Guy Preston

Troy Wideman said:


> Hello Guy,
> 
> As Chris stated, I am curious as to your ranking in Asayama Ichiden Ryu? I am currently training the Menkyo level and can see similarities.
> One thing that is for sure is that one of the main martial arts (Ryu Ha) in the Aizu area was Asayama Ichiden Ryu. There is tons of information about Sokaku Takeda (Sorry if I misspelt his name), having trained in the martial arts of the area. Therefore, I think it is easy to say he would have been exposed to this art. As to the extent it affected Daito Ryu, who knows. However, both arts have similarities as well as differences.
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Troy Wideman



Hi Troy,

As my previous post, I don't claim to hold any grade in Asayama Ichiden Ryu - I just find it an interesting topic, and an interesting point mentioned on an interview I watched... 

Thansk


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## Troy Wideman

Hi Guy,

No problem, it just appeared from your first post that you were comment as if you had training experience within the ryu ha. The videos that are posted by the Genbukan are on a superficial level. A lot of the inner points are not discussed or shown. Your right it is an interesting topic and one I have looked at extensively myself. I think to get to the bottom of it you would have to speak with Sokaku Takeda which is not possible anymore. There are a lot of similarities between the two styles, however, there are marked differences as well.....

As you get higher within Asayama there are even more similarities.

What is your back ground in training. Are you with the Genbukan, Bujinkan, etc. I hate the habit on forums not to use your real name.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman



Ninniku Dojo said:


> Hi Troy,
> 
> As my previous post, I don't claim to hold any grade in Asayama Ichiden Ryu - I just find it an interesting topic, and an interesting point mentioned on an interview I watched...
> 
> Thansk


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## Guy Preston

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi Guy,
> 
> No problem, it just appeared from your first post that you were comment as if you had training experience within the ryu ha. The videos that are posted by the Genbukan are on a superficial level. A lot of the inner points are not discussed or shown. Your right it is an interesting topic and one I have looked at extensively myself. I think to get to the bottom of it you would have to speak with Sokaku Takeda which is not possible anymore. There are a lot of similarities between the two styles, however, there are marked differences as well.....
> 
> As you get higher within Asayama there are even more similarities.
> 
> What is your back ground in training. Are you with the Genbukan, Bujinkan, etc. I hate the habit on forums not to use your real name.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Troy Wideman




Hi Troy,

My background is mostly gendai Jujutsu to be honest, but with instructors who favour Aikijutsu styles, particularly Daito Ryu.

I have also trained in Genbukan/KJJR, although for me it was the KJJR side of things I was interested in rather than Ninpo. It was actually Tanemura sensei that gave me the dojo name Ninniku... 

Currently I'm training gendai again, but maintain a personal interest in the traditional.

i have seen more of the Ryu than just DVD's but not a great deal, my question is more along the lines of 'from what I've seen I can't see it, can anyone more knowledgable add anything?' 
Thanks

Guy (not sure if this is what you meant, but Guy is actually my real name :rtfm


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## Troy Wideman

Hi Guy,

Here is another interesting fact of the Aizu area. Takagi Yoshin Ryu was one of the main martial arts of the area to. Interesting ehhhh! In the higher levels of Takagi Yoshin Ryu there is a lot of Aiki principles applied. In the higher levels of Asayama there is also a whole suwari section of defences.

What rank did you obtain in the genbukan. Have we ever met?


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman



Ninniku Dojo said:


> Hi Troy,
> 
> My background is mostly gendai Jujutsu to be honest, but with instructors who favour Aikijutsu styles, particularly Daito Ryu.
> 
> I have also trained in Genbukan/KJJR, although for me it was the KJJR side of things I was interested in rather than Ninpo. It was actually Tanemura sensei that gave me the dojo name Ninniku...
> 
> Currently I'm training gendai again, but maintain a personal interest in the traditional.
> 
> i have seen more of the Ryu than just DVD's but not a great deal, my question is more along the lines of 'from what I've seen I can't see it, can anyone more knowledgable add anything?'
> Thanks
> 
> Guy (not sure if this is what you meant, but Guy is actually my real name :rtfm


----------



## Guy Preston

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi Guy,
> 
> Here is another interesting fact of the Aizu area. Takagi Yoshin Ryu was one of the main martial arts of the area to. Interesting ehhhh! In the higher levels of Takagi Yoshin Ryu there is a lot of Aiki principles applied. In the higher levels of Asayama there is also a whole suwari section of defences.
> 
> What rank did you obtain in the genbukan. Have we ever met?
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Troy Wideman



That was also mentioned in the interview I watched, it is very interesting. Is that where Aiki Ate & Aiki Nage would have come from in the KJJR Nidan kata? (Don't worry, won't give out any info in what those kata are)

I was Shodan in KJJR

Not sure if we've met before? I don't think so. We're you at the Togakure Ryu Taikai 2010?


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## Troy Wideman

Hi Guy,

No that is not Asayama Ichiden Ryu, that is actually a line of Daito Ryu that Tanemura Sensei picked up from Sato Kinbei Sensei. There are similar techniques in the sections though. There are also ground fighting patterns.

No unfortunately I did not attend that Tai Kai. Have you ever been over to the USA? 

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman




Ninniku Dojo said:


> That was also mentioned in the interview I watched, it is very interesting. Is that where Aiki Ate & Aiki Nage would have come from in the KJJR Nidan kata? (Don't worry, won't give out any info in what those kata are)
> 
> I was Shodan in KJJR
> 
> Not sure if we've met before? I don't think so. We're you at the Togakure Ryu Taikai 2010?


----------



## Guy Preston

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi Guy,
> 
> No that is not Asayama Ichiden Ryu, that is actually a line of Daito Ryu that Tanemura Sensei picked up from Sato Kinbei Sensei. There are similar techniques in the sections though. There are also ground fighting patterns.
> 
> No unfortunately I did not attend that Tai Kai. Have you ever been over to the USA?
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Troy Wideman




Not to any of the Taikai no... wish I had though!!


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## Chris Parker

Ninniku Dojo said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> I am in no way an authority in either system above - I have done some training in both, and through seminars, Genbukan vids, Kondo Katsuyuki vids/books/articles, Kato Shiyemitsu vids, etc... have built up some understanding (as I find it of interest I pretty much watch and read anything I come across, but don't profess this to be understanding anywhere near the level of being a part of the Ryu, or a substitute for training, etc... it's just an interesting topic for me, hence the question if anyone can shed any more light)
> 
> I just found the point about the two coming from the same place, and similarities to be an interesting topic... thought could be a good discussion...



Hi Guy,

Yeah, sorry about that, I wasn't trying to infer any particular level of exposure or experience for yourself there, and agree, it can be quite an interesting area of discussion. I was really just trying to get a baseline of how familiar you were with the multiple lines of Asayama Ichiden Ryu, or the different approaches of different lines of Daito Ryu etc, so that the conversation could go from there.

In terms of the systems coming from the same place, you'll find, should you get into the Koryu side of things much, that typically geographically local systems will tend to have similar reiho and other considerations, as there will be a relative amount of cross-over, and culturally shared ideals and concepts, simply due to the fact that they are neighbours, really. It's interesting, but in a way, not much more unusual than members of a certain community (say, a particular State) all having similar slang, vernacular, and accents. To take the US, a New York accent is different to a Texan one, or a Californian one. Same in Australia, a Queenslander will pronounce some words differently to a Victorian, or a South Australian... and the accent can be different as well. This is obviously a generalisation, but it's the same type of idea. 



Ninniku Dojo said:


> What's your exposure like? Am I right in thinking your org originates with Bujinkan training?



Yeah, my organisation was the original Bujinkan schools in Australia (note: this was before there was any other Kan), however my exposure is from outside of the Bujinkan approach. Additionally, neither of those Ryu-ha are (formally) part of the Bujinkan syllabus' (with there being no connection to Daito Ryu in the Bujinkan, really). That said, I know some practitioners of different lines, and have had some very interesting discussions with them (primarily on Asayama Ichiden Ryu).



Ninniku Dojo said:


> Regarding the categorising of the system, as I said it was something that sprung into my memory while watching the interview, I think I just remembered wrong - as I'm aware of Tokimune doing alot of work in that area - thanks for the claification...Do you know though, if Asayama Ichiden Ryu was actually an influence in the way he did this? or do you think that is hearsay?



Honestly, I don't know of any real, hard evidence one way or the other. I know of certain claims, but I always take those with a grain of salt, as it's often a way to add to the reputation of the teacher/system in question, not necessarily one based in a lot of fact. It could have been some influence, certainly. But I don't think it was a particularly big one.



Ninniku Dojo said:


> In regard to the similarities - thanks for the pointers, I was considering at too much of a superficial level.
> I guess there is an argument though, that if you take it too far the other way, you could pretty much say that most systems have similarities in one way or another.



Ha, yeah. All arts use hands to grab or hit with, for instance... 



Ninniku Dojo said:


> But why have these 2 been singled out? I think that's were the area they originated comes in though as a factor, as you mentioned Reiho being similar I'd guess that is probably a reflection of the area? The same perhaps with the preference for certain techniques over others?..



Why were they singled out? Honestly, because Tanemura teaches a line of each, and can make a very informed comparison between the lines he has received. As a slight aside, though, it might be noted that the reiho found in the Genbukan line isn't necessarily the reiho of Asayama Ichiden Ryu according to other lines.... 



Ninniku Dojo said:


> Description of Iwaki Hideo's Asayama Ichiden Ryu book on Amazon...
> _'Takeda Sokaku apparently re-arranged the curriculumn of Daito Ryu during the Meiji era into a more comprehensive format based on Asayama Ichiden Ryu. Keishi Ryu, which was created by the Japanese Police School, adopted the technique maegoshi of Asayama Ichiden Ryu as one of their five basic techniques'
> 
> _This was bugging me, as could clearly remember reading somewhere a while back that it was Takeda Sokaku who was influenced by Asayama Ichiden Ryu.... As it turns out, I did read that, it's just a shame the source wasn't too reliable!!.... at least I know it's not my memory that was at fault!!!



Iwaki is an interesting fellow, and the book's quite a good piece of work. I don't know that I'd necessarily be taking what he says there as gospel, though, as it really is more hearsay than documented fact. Additionally, the comments about Keishi Ryu taking Maegoshi is not a reference to the line/s that we're discussing here, so isn't actually that relevant.

To show what I'm talking about, here are a range of clips of different forms of Asayama Ichiden Ryu:





Asayama Ichiden Ryu Heiho. This line is sometimes considered the "mainline", and has no real unarmed portion. It is known for it's use of kama (a large, single or double sickle), the wearing of a particular form of hakama, and for their Iai... which is done paired, rather than solo, as seen here.





This is interesting... here we have a Bujinkan member (who don't teach Asayama Ichiden Ryu) teaching the Genbukan line of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu. The Reiho seen is taken from Yagyu Shingan Ryu.





Nakashima Atsumi teaching a related line of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu.





Another line of the Taijutsu, related to, but not the same as the Genbukan line. Not the Reiho, which is markedly different.





Another line of the Heiho. This line has approached a line of the Taijutsu to begin to reincorporate Jujutsu back into their teachings, and are showing a form here.





More Asayama Ichiden Ryu Heiho, showing their Kamajutsu.





Just because I like their Kamajutsu...





And, mainly for comparison's sake to the Genbukan form (or very similar, demonstrated by the Bujinkan member), here is Iwaki himself demonstrating the Jodan no Kurai (the first formal level of the Ryu).

As you can see, there are huge differences in the various lines of Asayama Ichiden Ryu, some being fairly similar to the line that Tanemura holds, others being almost unrecognizable when put next to it.


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## Guy Preston

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Guy,
> 
> Yeah, sorry about that, I wasn't trying to infer any particular level of exposure or experience for yourself there, and agree, it can be quite an interesting area of discussion. I was really just trying to get a baseline of how familiar you were with the multiple lines of Asayama Ichiden Ryu, or the different approaches of different lines of Daito Ryu etc, so that the conversation could go from there.
> 
> In terms of the systems coming from the same place, you'll find, should you get into the Koryu side of things much, that typically geographically local systems will tend to have similar reiho and other considerations, as there will be a relative amount of cross-over, and culturally shared ideals and concepts, simply due to the fact that they are neighbours, really. It's interesting, but in a way, not much more unusual than members of a certain community (say, a particular State) all having similar slang, vernacular, and accents. To take the US, a New York accent is different to a Texan one, or a Californian one. Same in Australia, a Queenslander will pronounce some words differently to a Victorian, or a South Australian... and the accent can be different as well. This is obviously a generalisation, but it's the same type of idea.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, my organisation was the original Bujinkan schools in Australia (note: this was before there was any other Kan), however my exposure is from outside of the Bujinkan approach. Additionally, neither of those Ryu-ha are (formally) part of the Bujinkan syllabus' (with there being no connection to Daito Ryu in the Bujinkan, really). That said, I know some practitioners of different lines, and have had some very interesting discussions with them (primarily on Asayama Ichiden Ryu).
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't know of any real, hard evidence one way or the other. I know of certain claims, but I always take those with a grain of salt, as it's often a way to add to the reputation of the teacher/system in question, not necessarily one based in a lot of fact. It could have been some influence, certainly. But I don't think it was a particularly big one.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, yeah. All arts use hands to grab or hit with, for instance...
> 
> 
> 
> Why were they singled out? Honestly, because Tanemura teaches a line of each, and can make a very informed comparison between the lines he has received. As a slight aside, though, it might be noted that the reiho found in the Genbukan line isn't necessarily the reiho of Asayama Ichiden Ryu according to other lines....
> 
> 
> 
> Iwaki is an interesting fellow, and the book's quite a good piece of work. I don't know that I'd necessarily be taking what he says there as gospel, though, as it really is more hearsay than documented fact. Additionally, the comments about Keishi Ryu taking Maegoshi is not a reference to the line/s that we're discussing here, so isn't actually that relevant.
> 
> To show what I'm talking about, here are a range of clips of different forms of Asayama Ichiden Ryu:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asayama Ichiden Ryu Heiho. This line is sometimes considered the "mainline", and has no real unarmed portion. It is known for it's use of kama (a large, single or double sickle), the wearing of a particular form of hakama, and for their Iai... which is done paired, rather than solo, as seen here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting... here we have a Bujinkan member (who don't teach Asayama Ichiden Ryu) teaching the Genbukan line of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu. The Reiho seen is taken from Yagyu Shingan Ryu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nakashima Atsumi teaching a related line of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another line of the Taijutsu, related to, but not the same as the Genbukan line. Not the Reiho, which is markedly different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another line of the Heiho. This line has approached a line of the Taijutsu to begin to reincorporate Jujutsu back into their teachings, and are showing a form here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More Asayama Ichiden Ryu Heiho, showing their Kamajutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because I like their Kamajutsu...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, mainly for comparison's sake to the Genbukan form (or very similar, demonstrated by the Bujinkan member), here is Iwaki himself demonstrating the Jodan no Kurai (the first formal level of the Ryu).
> 
> As you can see, there are huge differences in the various lines of Asayama Ichiden Ryu, some being fairly similar to the line that Tanemura holds, others being almost unrecognizable when put next to it.



Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for taking the time to write this.

I was aware that there were different lines, but not just how different they could appear. Even forgetting the Daito Ryu comparison, just looking at where there are differences or similarities within the Asayama Ichiden Ryu lines is an interesting topic all on its own!!

Also, as above Tanemura sensei was discussing schools he has trained in above, and you also said that the Reiho in Genbukan may differ from others, it's also worth considering what similarities are inherent in the schools themselves, and what was as a result of learning from the same person, and the imprint of their opinions, movement, preferences, etc...

In the interview I watched Tanemura sensei also said that the weapons systems weren't transmitted so only Taijutsu now remains,  interesting that if that's was the case in that particular line, that in another line featured above they appear to have the opposite scenario and are reintroducing the unarmed portion through another line.


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## Chris Parker

Well, as Troy said above, Tanemura received a line of Daito Ryu from Sato Kinbei, who he also received his line of Asayama Ichiden Ryu from (coming from Ueno Takashi), but I believe (and Troy can confirm or correct this) that the current teachings of Daito Ryu are from a different instructor (and a slightly different line). I believe the instructors name is Nagao, but his full name is escaping me at present.


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## Guy Preston

Chris Parker said:


> Well, as Troy said above, Tanemura received a line of Daito Ryu from Sato Kinbei, who he also received his line of Asayama Ichiden Ryu from (coming from Ueno Takashi), but I believe (and Troy can confirm or correct this) that the current teachings of Daito Ryu are from a different instructor (and a slightly different line). I believe the instructors name is Nagao, but his full name is escaping me at present.



Hi Chris,

That fits with what I know...

I think Nagao also attended the recent GBK Taikai in Japan (wish I could have), Troy will be able to confirm better than I...


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## Chris Parker

Yeah, I know he's been at a few of them... and I've gotten some private reports of some recent ones that he taught at, which sounded fantastic.


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## Troy Wideman

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, I know he's been at a few of them... and I've gotten some private reports of some recent ones that he taught at, which sounded fantastic.



Hi Chris and Guy,

The Nidan patterns in the KJJR are from Sato's Kinbei Sensei's Line not Nagao Sensei's Line. Yes he taught at the most recent Tai Kai. I actually got the pleasure of demonstrating some techniques he showed with a good friend of mine, Sam Mendelson. The techniques were almost identical to Asayama Ichiden Ryu, interesting ehhh. 
    Only the Tai Jutsu was passed on with the Ueno Line, supposedly the sword and bo was lost. There supposedly was only 3 sword techniques in the original system. Who knows what the video's are showing, but as you know the Ueno Line did not pass on the weapons, only the higishi bo.
The bujinkan member demonstrating is Eddie Divintman , he actually was originally a Genbukan student. Eddie and I are friends and he is a very competent martial artist and has a great group. There are some marked differences on what he is showing and the Genbukan version. However, there are only so many ways you can twist a wrist, lol. Where did he learn it from? I know Hatsummi did receive a Menkyo kaiden in Asayama Ichiden Ryu from Ueno before parting ways. I think Hatsummi has showed some patterns in the past but you would have to ask a Bujinkan member to confirm this. Some of them are also similar to the way Iwaki does them. If you look at Iwaki's book there are all kinds of additions to the system added in, and not Asayama in its pure form.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Guy Preston

Hi Troy,

Do you know of anyone other than Tanemura sensei that teaches Sato Kinbei's Asayama Ichiden Ryu? I think his daughter is now in charge of his org, but from what I can see they seem to focus more on Chinese martial arts.. There was reference to Yawara and Jujutsu, but I didn't see anything for AIR

Thanks

Guy


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## Troy Wideman

Ninniku Dojo said:


> Hi Troy,
> 
> Do you know of anyone other than Tanemura sensei that teaches Sato Kinbei's Asayama Ichiden Ryu? I think his daughter is now in charge of his org, but from what I can see they seem to focus more on Chinese martial arts.. There was reference to Yawara and Jujutsu, but I didn't see anything for AIR
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Guy



HI Guy,

The interesting thing about Sato Kinbei Sensei is that supposedly his family didn't know all the lic in martial arts he had obtained. I believed when he was still teaching he focused on the Chinese systems and Daiwado. This is only what I have heard. 
There is a gentleman in the United States that was his student for quite a long time. His name escapes me, old age, ahahhaha. I believe he received a Menkyo licence in Asayama Iciden Ryu and Daiwado and possibly Yagyu Shingan Ryu. I will see if I can drum up his name today. I have heard good things about him but never met him personally. 


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Troy Wideman

Troy Wideman said:


> HI Guy,
> 
> The interesting thing about Sato Kinbei Sensei is that supposedly his family didn't know all the lic in martial arts he had obtained. I believed when he was still teaching he focused on the Chinese systems and Daiwado. This is only what I have heard.
> There is a gentleman in the United States that was his student for quite a long time. His name escapes me, old age, ahahhaha. I believe he received a Menkyo licence in Asayama Iciden Ryu and Daiwado and possibly Yagyu Shingan Ryu. I will see if I can drum up his name today. I have heard good things about him but never met him personally.
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Troy Wideman



The gentleman's name that was a student of Sato Kinbei Sensei is Duke Meade and he runs the Live Oak Dojo. He received various licences from Sato Kinbei Sensei.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Guy Preston

Troy Wideman said:


> The gentleman's name that was a student of Sato Kinbei Sensei is Duke Meade and he runs the Live Oak Dojo. He received various licences from Sato Kinbei Sensei.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Troy Wideman




Thanks for digging that out Troy,

I had a look at their website - http://www.liveoakdojo.com/instructor.html  looks interesting. It must have been a great experience for him to have trained in the way he has.

Something I'm not sure about though, is the comment on his profile - 'The only Certified Instructor of Sato Kinbei Sensei's teachings in North America'

What are your thoughts?

If Tanemura Sensei was not only a certified instructor of some of Sato Kinbei's systems, but actually became Soke of some, and has then certified his own students - wouldn't they be certified instructors of Sato Kinbei's teachings?? Albiet they are not direct students?

Similar to a Bujinkan Shihan for example who could be considered to be a certified instructor in the Takamatsuden arts, although not direct students of Takamatsu.

If so, there are a number of Genbukan instructors who hold licences in Ryu that came from Sato Kinbei.

Perhaps  'the only instructor to be certified by Sato Kinbei in North America' may be more appropriate. Not that this is a particularly big issue in the scheme of things, just something I noticed.

It also makes me cringe a little when people refer to themselves as 'Sensei' - I've always been under the impression that this is considered presumptuous? But then again, I can see the use on a website to get your point across...


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## Troy Wideman

Ninniku Dojo said:


> Thanks for digging that out Troy,
> 
> I had a look at their website - http://www.liveoakdojo.com/instructor.html  looks interesting. It must have been a great experience for him to have trained in the way he has.
> 
> Something I'm not sure about though, is the comment on his profile - 'The only Certified Instructor of Sato Kinbei Sensei's teachings in North America'
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> If Tanemura Sensei was not only a certified instructor of some of Sato Kinbei's systems, but actually became Soke of some, and has then certified his own students - wouldn't they be certified instructors of Sato Kinbei's teachings?? Albiet they are not direct students?
> 
> Similar to a Bujinkan Shihan for example who could be considered to be a certified instructor in the Takamatsuden arts, although not direct students of Takamatsu.
> 
> If so, there are a number of Genbukan instructors who hold licences in Ryu that came from Sato Kinbei.
> 
> Perhaps  'the only instructor to be certified by Sato Kinbei in North America' may be more appropriate. Not that this is a particularly big issue in the scheme of things, just something I noticed.
> 
> It also makes me cringe a little when people refer to themselves as 'Sensei' - I've always been under the impression that this is considered presumptuous? But then again, I can see the use on a website to get your point across...



HI Guy,

In a way he is correct. We are students of Tanemura sensei not Sato Kinbei Sensei, we have a link but not a direct line as teacher and student.
I am actually not sure of Mr. Meade's rank in Asayama Ichiden Ryu, I am assuming he has Menkyo but not positive. It appears he has a Menkyo Kaiden in Yagyu Shingan Ryu but not sure about Asayama. 

Sensei, just means teacher and it is not just used in the martial arts but Public school as well. 


Kind Regards,

Troy


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