# Buy your way to Heaven! The Catholic Church brings back indulgences!



## Makalakumu (Apr 30, 2012)

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/02...ven-the-catholic-church-brings-back-indulgen/



> These days, you can get a deal on anything. Even salvation! Pope  Benedict has announced that his faithful can once again pay the Catholic  Church to ease their way through Purgatory and into the Gates of  Heaven.
> 
> Never mind that Martin Luther fired up the Reformation because of them: Plenary Indulgences are back.
> 
> ...



This is the ultimate retirement plan...


----------



## 72ronin (Apr 30, 2012)

haha ridiculous.
Its not enough to fleece them while alive, guilt trip them over dead relatives aswell.

Maybe they will need a receipt at the pearly gates


----------



## granfire (Apr 30, 2012)

:hb:


----------



## Omar B (Apr 30, 2012)

_Send your money to Jesus Christ
Mail order your eternal life
Bend your mind, make you turn around
Don't believe it when they tell you
That eveng god needs money
God needs money from you

-Nevermore, Godmoney_


----------



## oaktree (Apr 30, 2012)

I thought if you accept Jesus as your lord and Savior and believe he  died
For our sins you go to heaven.


----------



## Carol (Apr 30, 2012)

Confess on the Octave of Easter and all your sins get wiped away, no charge.


----------



## Omar B (Apr 30, 2012)

oaktree said:


> I thought if you accept Jesus as your lord and Savior and believe he  died
> For our sins you go to heaven.



And in this story Heaven is not a stripper but a place?  No thanks.


----------



## Buka (May 1, 2012)

I know this is an open forum, but you guys are besmirching my religion.

I think you should all send me twenty dollars.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 1, 2012)

Well, revenue is down, churches are closing due to lack of membership, less old people are snuffing it and leaving it all to the Church.

Like any other business, they gotta make up for the shortfall somehow, so now you can once again 'buy' your way into 'Heaven'.

Hey, how else are they going to afford ball gags for the annual Altar Boy Orgy?


----------



## granfire (May 1, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Well, revenue is down, churches are closing due to lack of membership, less old people are snuffing it and leaving it all to the Church.
> 
> Like any other business, they gotta make up for the shortfall somehow, so now you can once again 'buy' your way into 'Heaven'.
> 
> Hey, how else are they going to afford ball gags for the annual Altar Boy Orgy?



Hmmm.
Only in enlightened western countries...(and in the US particularly here in the South, the only businesses that are striving are check cashing/car title loans and churches, go figure...)

Poor Benedict....</sarcasm>


----------



## Bill Mattocks (May 1, 2012)

Thank God for all the non-Catholics to tell me what's wrong with Catholicism.


----------



## granfire (May 1, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thank God for all the non-Catholics to tell me what's wrong with Catholicism.



When Martin Luther pointed it out he was still a staunch Catholic.
Or is he too German for you?
(dangit, so is the incumbent...)

But rest assure, Catholicism isn't the only game in town that sells salvation for cold hard cash. We got about 2 pages in the phone book worth of clubs similar. Did I say club, I mean church, of course! 

(I'd never mock a person's personal believes - within reason, naturally - but organized religion is a racket.)


----------



## Makalakumu (May 1, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thank God for all the non-Catholics to tell me what's wrong with Catholicism.



Do you extend the same standard to all religions?

I think the Catholics should start a mutual fund that invests in the afterlife. Buy yourself eternal bliss on a sliding scale where some forms of bliss are better then others.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 1, 2012)

why do any of you care if you dont believe in religion or what ever why do you care how a Catholic spends their money?
Or what they believe?


----------



## granfire (May 1, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> why do any of you care if you dont believe in religion or what ever why do you care how a Catholic spends their money?
> Or what they believe?



The same as any other con game in town. 
I don't care how anybody spends their money, as long as they pay their due bills and feed their kids and animals. 


The point of the original post, in the middle of the 15th century some guy found it absurd that the church sold salvation to the highest bidder. 

But these days you don't have to form a new religion, you can just switch denominations.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 1, 2012)

Well thats fine you feel its a con game but there some really unplesant posts ball gags and rackets really?  Why do you care?  Its not your money what would you rather they buy?


----------



## granfire (May 1, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Well thats fine you feel its a con game but there some really unplesant posts ball gags and rackets really?  Why do you care?  Its not your money what would you rather they buy?



I don't care what they buy.

but if anybody other than the church would be offering said 'deal' you in your capacity as LEO would be involved. 


Ease up.
The con is legal. I am just amazed/amused that the same con from 500 years ago is resurrected. You gotta admit, that's bold!


----------



## WC_lun (May 1, 2012)

My step-father and his family are Catholic and they were thinking that this was something bygone in the time of Luther as well.  I don't bad mouth anyone's personal beliefs, but this kinda gives the church a black eye.  I know the Catholic church has stated a desire to convert people to the church.  A policy such as this does not help in that cause.


----------



## 72ronin (May 1, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Its not your money what would you rather they buy?



Well, at the risk of sounding.. rational, maybe food/clothing for someone not so well off. You know charity!
Erm.. What would Jesus do?  


Oh, and thanks for the negative rep Bill, is your set big enough to hand it out to the person who made the ball gag comment..


----------



## ballen0351 (May 1, 2012)

72ronin said:


> Well, at the risk of sounding.. rational, maybe food/clothing for someone not so well off. You know charity!
> Erm.. What would Jesus do?


Well.... Erm... Churches use alot of money for that very thing you know charity.  Im not Catholic  but I also could care less what they spend there money on.  Just like if it were a Muslim, Budist, or Jewish program.  Its between the person their Church and their god.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 1, 2012)

granfire said:


> I don't care what they buy.
> 
> but if anybody other than the church would be offering said 'deal' you in your capacity as LEO would be involved.


How so?  Its not illegal to donate money 
from the NY Times article:
You cannot buy one &#8212; the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 &#8212; but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one.


----------



## Makalakumu (May 1, 2012)

When is the line crossed by religious beliefs and most people consider them to be unreasonable?


----------



## ballen0351 (May 1, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> When is the line crossed by religious beliefs and most people consider them to be unreasonable?



When it effects others but donating money does not effect anyone else.


----------



## Tez3 (May 2, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> When is the line crossed by religious beliefs and most people consider them to be unreasonable?




I think in this case it only affects practising Catholics and like most things it's up to them what they think and do about it. I'm sure if they don't agree they won't pay, if they do it's not really the concern of anyone else. Is it unreasonable? I don't know and being honest I won't spend anytime worrying or even thinking about it, it's a Roman Catholic concern, doesn't effect anyone else, certainly not me so I'm not going to say it's either reasonable or unreasonable. Live and let live.


----------



## Makalakumu (May 2, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Live and let live.



Sure.  Spend your money on whatever you want.  If it doesn't hurt me, I don't care.

But does it affect you?  

The Catholic religion is very popular in Central and South America and the United States has been fighting a Drug War with various criminal groups in these areas for a long time.  Couldn't one of these king pins ramp up their business and kill a lot more people with the absurdness that they would go to heaven as long as they of balanced it with money and some community service?

Of course I don't believe the "drug war" is beneficial to society, nor do I believe in any religion.  Therefore, my response is contrived and should be viewed within that context.


----------



## elder999 (May 2, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I think in this case it only affects practising Catholics and like most things it's up to them what they think and do about it. I'm sure if they don't agree they won't pay, if they do it's not really the concern of anyone else. Is it unreasonable? I don't know and being honest I won't spend anytime worrying or even thinking about it, it's a Roman Catholic concern, doesn't effect anyone else, certainly not me so I'm not going to say it's either reasonable or unreasonable. Live and let live.



It's certainly nothing compared to Scientology, where the charges for the top 8 levels of "clear" are *hundreds of thousands of dollars.* Tom Cruise is an OT VI-whatever the **** that means-and it probably cost him the better part of half a million dollars to get there form OT V-whatever the **** *that *means. :lfao:

Money, while "*a* root of all evil," is also our social medium of exchange-the collection plate gets passed at churches, from the poorest to the wealthiest, and people drop money in it. I know, for a short part of my childhood, that collection plate paid my daddy's salary. Lots of people tithe-donate a tenth of their income to their church-we do, though it's a little more complicated than that, since Rita-that's the wife-is a Quaker, and I'm something else altogether.

Speaking of that "something else," though-I've been to the homes of Navajo roadmen and medicine men who had a price list on the back of their front door for various ceremonies. Anthony Davis-a Comanche/Pawnee man, one of my mentors in the Native American Church, and the inspiration for that handle (elder999 :lol: ) I go by, didn't believe in taking money, and wouldn't (and I'll tell my very last Anthony story in a moment) but thought a great deal of one of my very favorite roadmen, because he ran my first peyote meeting, the Navajo, Gerry Ettcity, who *always* takes a fee for running a ceremony-sometimes even a *truck* or _medical procedure_. :lfao: 

Here's Anthony - "White Thunder," (on the winter day in 1911, when he was born in Pawnee, Oklahoma, there was a thunderstorm, with snow, so that was his name) talking about race, in a movie (made by some _posers_, but still)-he died a while back, at 94, and I miss my friend very much:






The last meeting I went to that Anthony ran was in El Paso, Texas. He'd run a ceremony for a woman down there who had cancer-shortly after the ceremony, she went back to the doctors and the growths they'd found were all gone-it happens sometimes-they call it "ideopathic"-which, just like in the case of the scarring of my lungs, means they have no idea what caused it.:lfao: She offered to sponsor a meeting for Anthony to thank him for her healing, and he said:_No, daughter-I'll run that meeting for you, and you can thank The One who did the healing._ So a ninety some odd year old man traveled hundreds of miles to sit up praying-literally all night-at no charge.It was kind of awesome-those people down there, almost all Hispanic, were almost all _terrified _of him: he was really *fierce*-and he was in fine form, wearing his white bucksin outfit and singing just like he was famous for it-*'cause he was*-it was *good* to see him that way. Shortly after my first Sundance, he took my eagle feathers and made a fan for me-an Anthony Davis fan is something of a prize, even if its made of macaw feathers, never mind eagle or red tailed hawk-and he didn't charge me a dime. You can see some of Anthony's fans here, in another documentary with a part about him.
*
God*, I miss him.

My dad would marry people-it was his part of his *job*, and a perfectly good way to screw up a Saturday, especially if you were a 12 year old boy tapped to play acolyte for Mass, if they had one. He'd take whatever the couple offered, afterward-there was no charge, but he certainly didn't turn away a "donation," and I can remember once going home with $20 myself...:lfao:

Miss my dad, too-of course.....

So the Catholic church takes money. Big deal. They're certainly not going to get any of mine, or John's, and if it offers some comfort and order to those that do give, what of it?


----------



## Makalakumu (May 2, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> When it effects others but donating money does not effect anyone else.



Well, what if a grown man still believed in Santa Claus?  What if they made a fool of themselves giving the postman a letter addressed to the North Pole with all of their wants and dreams written upon it?  What other irrational things might this person believe because this irrational belief was never challenged?


----------



## Makalakumu (May 2, 2012)

elder999 said:


> So the Catholic church takes money. Big deal. They're certainly not going to get any of mine, or John's, and if it offers some comfort and order to those that do give, what of it?



Thank you for your story, I really appreciate reading it.  I also appreciate the thought you put into picking your videos.  Very appropriate.

That said, what of it?

In essence, by not challenging this, aren't we acknowledging multiple standards for truth?  Aren't we able to have a slow and rational conversation about these things?  And, if you're Catholic (of which I am no longer, but I was born and raised Catholic and completed a few sacraments) do you have any reservations about this?  Judging from my sharing on social media of this same story, a lot of my family seems to think this is highly controversial.


----------



## elder999 (May 2, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Well, what if a grown man still believed in Santa Claus? What if they made a fool of themselves giving the postman a letter addressed to the North Pole with all of their wants and dreams written upon it?



The postal service would deliver it. He'd think Santa got it.

Maybe Santa would....:lol:



Makalakumu said:


> What other irrational things might this person believe because this irrational belief was never challenged?



World peace?

The inherent goodness of man? :lol:

The supremacy of the scientific method, and knowledge gained thereby? :lfao:


----------



## elder999 (May 2, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> In essence, by not challenging this, aren't we acknowledging multiple standards for truth?



"Truth" is _relative._ There *are* multiple standards for "truth."

Once again, I offer the "68 degree rule.":




elder999 said:


> At John 18:37, 38 we find this interchange of words between Jesus and Pontius Pilate (which started when Jesus was on trial):
> Pilate: &#8216;You aren&#8217;t a king, are you?&#8217;
> Jesus: &#8216;You are saying that I&#8217;m a king. This is why I was born and why I came into the world, *to testify to the truth*. *Everyone who is on the side of truth listens to my voice*.&#8217;
> Pilate: &#8216;*What is truth?*&#8217;
> ...


----------



## Makalakumu (May 2, 2012)

elder999 said:


> "Truth" is _relative._ There *are* multiple standards for "truth."
> 
> Once again, I offer the "68 degree rule.":



Well, ****, what I offer is a good idea.

I would pay a small amount of money to ensure my path into Heaven, because, I might be wrong.  The Catholic Church needs to offer plans that target this greater majority of folks that are convinced that everyone else's beliefs are ********, but doubt their own belief system at the same time. 

I think you might be surprised how many people would make micro-oh **** it's true-donations.


----------



## granfire (May 2, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> How so?  Its not illegal to donate money
> from the NY Times article:
> You cannot buy one  the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567  but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one.



_DONATE_, no.
But being parted from your hard earned money for the promise of something that is either non existent or - in this case - rather vague and arguably not in the hands of the recipients of the funds.
I think that is pretty much the essence of a con.
As I understand the premise of doing good stuff  - like donate and do good things - has always been considered means to fill in some potholes on the road to heaven. 
But this seems like they are abandoning the round about way, or rather adding the more direct way (if only to their coffers).

But hey. Two years ago my Father in law had a bout with colon cancer. It wasn't smooth sailing though he was lucky that they did not have to do chemo or radiation. he seems to think he cheated death and found religion....now every time I leave him alone with my husband he is starting something about the book of revelations and how this TV preacher he sends money to is oh so good (I have never heard him go on about it though).
I am personally floored that the man who always made fun of his wife's church things....falling for the TV preacher con...


----------



## ballen0351 (May 2, 2012)

Is it a con?  If it helped him and gave him hope and the will to fight on then to me thats not a con.  It gave him something to believe in during hisbtine of need and at the very least even if you dont believe in the power of praywr it helped keep his spirit up which is a big thing in medicine.  I give money to my church not because i think it will help my path to heaven but because the church uaes that money to help others.  No different then my donations to Wounded Warrior and St Judes hospital.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 2, 2012)

Also as i read up on this your not donating directly to the church for the indulgences your just donating to a charoty you cant directly buy an indulgence thats not allowed by the church.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 2, 2012)

Again i ask why do you care if a grown man believes in Santa?  How does that effect you?  How does it effect man kind in general if steve jones 45 year old from Macon Ga still believes in Santa?  Or if he believws Elvis is alive or Area 51 has space aliens or Big Foot roams the pacific northwest.  Or if i have a ghost in my house.  Why do you care?





Makalakumu said:


> Well, what if a grown man s
> 
> till believed in Santa Claus?  What if they made a fool of themselves giving the postman a letter addressed to the North Pole with all of their wants and dreams written upon it?  What other irrational things might this person believe because this irrational belief was never challenged?


----------



## Empty Hands (May 2, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Again i ask why do you care if a grown man believes in Santa?  How does that effect you?  How does it effect man kind in general if steve jones 45 year old from Macon Ga still believes in Santa?  Or if he believws Elvis is alive or Area 51 has space aliens or Big Foot roams the pacific northwest.  Or if i have a ghost in my house.  Why do you care?



"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire


----------



## ballen0351 (May 2, 2012)

Empty Hands said:


> "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire



The last time I checked the only atrocities commited by Santa were not bringing me that bike I wanted when I was 6.


----------



## Tez3 (May 2, 2012)

Empty Hands said:


> "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire




Nobody however is making anyone believe anything, people will always believe what they wish. No one makes people believe in UFOs etc, probably quite the opposite as most people will scoff at you if you say they exist.

The idea of drug lords or any criminal carrying on their 'trade' in the belief they will be forgiven is laughable, if they were in any way Christian they wouldn't be doing in the first place! I doubt they care whether they think they are going to hell or not.

It's the _love_ of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself.


----------



## granfire (May 2, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Is it a con?  If it helped him and gave him hope and the will to fight on then to me thats not a con.  It gave him something to believe in during hisbtine of need and at the very least even if you dont believe in the power of praywr it helped keep his spirit up which is a big thing in medicine.  I give money to my church not because i think it will help my path to heaven but because the church uaes that money to help others.  No different then my donations to Wounded Warrior and St Judes hospital.



yeah, it's different.

You 'donate' to the church directly, you buy the head guy a new silk robe, in the addition to the hundreds he already has.

You donate to wounded warrior or St Jude's you buy somebody services they don't already have a lot of.

But, as i said. you bills are paid, your kids and pets are fed, it's up to you if you want to buy a lottery ticket or absolution from the church. 

And yes, Voltaire was not too far off. the history's dark points are preceded my some con-artist brainwashing the masses to do their evil bidding.


----------



## Makalakumu (May 2, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> The idea of drug lords or any criminal carrying on their 'trade' in the belief they will be forgiven is laughable...



It's not laughable, it's historical.  When Indulgences could be bought back in Martin Luther's time, all kinds of hideous men, who happened to have money, bought one way tickets into Heaven.  Why shouldn't we expect that again?  

That said, I think the essence of what many posters are saying is that we need to leave people alone who believe unreasonable things if those beliefs hurt no one.  Is it impolite to criticize people's unreasonable beliefs?  If so, how far are we willing to extend that concept?


----------



## granfire (May 2, 2012)

Empty Hands said:


> "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire



I tend to agree....



ballen0351 said:


> The last time I checked the only atrocities commited by Santa were not bringing me that bike I wanted when I was 6.


deliberately obtuse, aren't we....



Tez3 said:


> Nobody however is making anyone believe anything, people will always believe what they wish. No one makes people believe in UFOs etc, probably quite the opposite as most people will scoff at you if you say they exist.
> 
> The idea of drug lords or any criminal carrying on their 'trade' in the belief they will be forgiven is laughable, if they were in any way Christian they wouldn't be doing in the first place! I doubt they care whether they think they are going to hell or not.
> 
> It's the _love_ of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself.



Well, look at the mafia bosses. The old guard, the original ones...a lot of them good staunch Catholics...with all the stuff about the commandments and such, many were said to be generous to their communities - and church. 
One can only assume whether or not they wanted to by salvation. 

But there are a few people who excell in the art of warping people's minds. making them believe the ridiculous, to have them commit the atrocious. 
History books and the news are full of those stories. 
The good reverend who herded his flock to the jungles of South America...while popular lore has it it was mass suicide, some people say it was outright murder...
to assaulting people who's 'lifestyle' does not agree with the current religious order's doctrine. 
The crusades....
the pogroms throughout history, the genocide committed on all kinds of peoples, in the name of religion.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 2, 2012)

granfire said:


> yeah, it's different.
> 
> You 'donate' to the church directly, you buy the head guy a new silk robe, in the addition to the hundreds he already has.


Actually I know exactly where my money goes that I donate to the church Im on the board and it must be approved by the board before it is spent.  Also my pastor does not wear any robes normally hes not even wearing a tie we are very casual in our dress code.



> You donate to wounded warrior or St Jude's you buy somebody services they don't already have a lot of.


Fact is I have alot less control over what they do with my money then I do at my church


----------



## ballen0351 (May 2, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> It's not laughable, it's historical.  When Indulgences could be bought back in Martin Luther's time, all kinds of hideous men, who happened to have money, bought one way tickets into Heaven.  Why shouldn't we expect that again?


People wont all of a sudden start committing hideous acts just because now they can BUY a way into heaven.  People that will comit these acts will commit these act no matter what people that wont commit these acts wont.  



> That said, I think the essence of what many posters are saying is that we need to leave people alone who believe unreasonable things if those beliefs hurt no one.  Is it impolite to criticize people's unreasonable beliefs?  If so, how far are we willing to extend that concept?


We dont need to extend the concept to anything else because none of that matters on this topic.  This topic is about indulgences nothing more or less.


----------



## Tez3 (May 2, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> It's not laughable, it's historical. When Indulgences could be bought back in Martin Luther's time, all kinds of hideous men, who happened to have money, bought one way tickets into Heaven. Why shouldn't we expect that again?
> 
> That said, I think the essence of what many posters are saying is that we need to leave people alone who believe unreasonable things if those beliefs hurt no one. Is it impolite to criticize people's unreasonable beliefs? If so, how far are we willing to extend that concept?




Perhaps it's laughable because for decades these people have being criminals doing some horrendous things and only now they can pay and be forgiven? hardly. They didn't care when there weren't indulgences so why start now? All of a sudden they are going to be really bad because they can pay their way into 'heaven'? 
I accept that criminals such as the Mafia have and do donate money to their churches but they've done that long before this selling of indulgences came back. It won't make any difference to their behaviour.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 2, 2012)

granfire said:


> Well, look at the mafia bosses. The old guard, the original ones...a lot of them good staunch Catholics...with all the stuff about the commandments and such, many were said to be generous to their communities - and church.
> One can only assume whether or not they wanted to by salvation.
> 
> But there are a few people who excell in the art of warping people's minds. making them believe the ridiculous, to have them commit the atrocious.
> ...



And there have been MILLIONS of other evil crimes that had nothing to do with Religion.  So What?  An evil person is an Evil person no matter what they give to a church they are still evil.  No amount of money will change that.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2012)

Martin Luther would not be pleased...but what the heck what was good for Pope Leo X is good for Pope Benedict XVI I guess..... However I doubt Pope Benedict XVI has done this for the same reasons Pope Leo X did it...well it may be for the same reasons but I doubt the what got them here was the same


----------



## elder999 (May 2, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> And there have been MILLIONS of other evil crimes that had nothing to do with Religion. So What? An evil person is an Evil person no matter what they give to a church they are still evil. No amount of money will change that.



On the other hand, Old Testament doctrine has it that the blood of bulls and goats can wash away sin.



> *Hebrews 9:22* : _according to the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission._





New Testament doctrine has it that the blood of Christ washes away sin.



> *Ephesians 1:7-*In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace



And it's a complicated theological argument from there. At one time the Catholic church granted indulgences-sometimes, as in the case of the Crusades, *wholesale*, and _in anticipation of sin yet to occur_-in other words, Crusaders were forgiven any evil they might commit in the quest to take the Holy Land.

Today, not so much, and really, who cares? Evil will be done-whether it will truly be forgiven, and the soul of the evil doer admitted to Paradise? Kind of between them and God, isn't it? I mean, maybe jihadis really do wind up in heaven with 72 virgins, if that's what they believe......




			
				Makalakumu said:
			
		

> That said, I think the essence of what many posters are saying is that we need to leave people alone who believe unreasonable things if those beliefs hurt no one.




Yep, yep. I'm from New York: _Thou shalt obey the Third commandment: *Mind thine own business*! And the fourth is like unto it*:Keep yer yap shut!* _:lfao:





			
				Makalakumu said:
			
		

> Is it impolite to criticize people's unreasonable beliefs? If so, how far are we willing to extend that concept?



And, again, this is a very flexible thing, isn't it? I don't think many people in the U.S., especially non-Muslims-and even quite a few Muslims, have any problem criticizing the jihadis belief in a virgin filled paradise as a reward for martyrdom.

That, though, harms others-_in that it makes acts of violence, warfare and terrorism* themselves *into redeeming religious ritual_, which is one difference from "buying your way to Heaven," where the commission of sins is separate from the redeeming act-while those that "buy their way into Heaven" may have committed terrible deeds, those terrible deeds are preumably separate from their religious observance, whether it is confessing those deeds and doing some form of penance, or simply paying cash. 

As for the "rudeness" of it, well-it isn't rude to say what you think of a belief, or write about it in a philosophical or theological critique, but it's the height of rudeness to offer an individual negative criticism about their personal religious beliefs when those beliefs don't harm anyone else, _even if they are harmful or potentially harmful to the individual._

Good example, the Sundance: on four occasions, one summer after the next, I went without food or water for four days, bound to a tree, dancing, blowing an eagle-thigh whistle, and gazing at the sun-I was bound to the tree by leather thongs attached to skewers that went through the flesh on my chest, and on the fourth day I broke the skewers free. One year, I dragged two buffalo skulls from skewers on my back.

View attachment $sundance.jpg

Pretty gross, huh? 


Of course, it didn't hurt *you*, or anyone else, and my reasons for doing it are just that: *my reasons*: no one forced me to do it, and it wasn't any kind of requirement-in fact, a fair amount of discouragement was offered before allowing me to commit to such a serious undertaking.We could certainly discuss the motivations for such an admittedly extreme act, or the belief system that undergirds the ceremony-whole books have been written about it-_but you can't criticize me for believing what I believe, and doing what I do, *without* being "rude."_

Of course, I forgive you, John-in advance of any potential rudeness. :lol:


----------



## Tez3 (May 2, 2012)

And the worst we can do is eat a bacon sandwich! though even that's allowed if the alternative is starvation...


----------



## granfire (May 2, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> And the worst we can do is eat a bacon sandwich! though even that's allowed if the alternative is starvation...



Didn't mean like a bacon shrimp sandwich, smothered in cream gravy?


----------



## jks9199 (May 2, 2012)

The Catholic Church has maintained the practice of granting indulgences for many years; there's a note in the front of the study Bible I used in elementary school that mentions a plenary indulgence for reading the Bible for a certain length of time.  Generally, they're attached to good works or prayer, though they can be attached to alms giving.  See HERE for a podcast discussing indulgences, or HERE for a textual account.  From the second link:


> To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.



Absolutely nothing here suggests that you can buy your way out of sin, and the indulgence only comes into play AFTER the sin is forgiven through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  (As a side note; committing a sin with the plan or intent to do it, and then go to confession, can be seen as invalidating the confession, or even a form of sacrilege since there was arguably a lack of true repententance or contrition.)  Perhaps a loose comparison might be made to a judge in a traffic case suspending all or part of the fine for an offense because the defendant went to traffic school or had a good record.

On another note -- I have a real issue with the nearly insulting, definitely patronizing attitude some of the atheists around here take towards those who believe, not to mention the open hostility towards the Catholic Church.  You don't have to believe as I do; that's entirely your choice and your right.  But that doesn't mean you get to attack me or others who believe, belittle us, treat us like children, or otherwise demean us -- you undercut your point.  Yes, I absolutely admit the Church has had its failings, in the recent past, and throughout its history.  But that doesn't mean that every priest, every bishop, or every cardinal is guilty, any more than .  As one example, in response to a comment above, diocesan priests are generally free to own property; they don't take a vow of poverty like most religious order priests do.  That said -- most only own a few sets of vestments, and often, those are gifts that they have received from family, friends, or congregations.  

EDIT:  One more thought on vestments...  They're work clothes for the priest, not unlike a cop's uniform or a firefighter's bunker gear.


----------



## granfire (May 2, 2012)

I think there is only one person who claims to be atheist, and I don't think he said anything about this.

I don't consider myself atheist. Not one bit.

However, I have seen a good many people damaged by organized religion.  And not just the Catholic church. There are plenty enough of the god clubs around here who don't pull punches. Consider me jaded in terms of all organized religion, regardless of denomination.

Then again, I was raised in a culture where most people go through the motions of 'Christianity' but mostly not. Unlike the US, when in Germany somebody tells you he/she is a Christian - again, any denomination - it is a strong step. Not like around my part where it takes more back bone to proclaim you don't see any sense in it. 
I don't think I have seen people being ridiculed/attacked over it.

On the other hand, around here everybody pushes religion to the forefront and is then in turn offended when A) called of on discrepancies or B) reminded that it can be intrusive. (I suppose it does not help my point when I fall over laughing when my neighbors collectively wonder if Catholics believe in Jesus...)

There is faith and there is following the lead lemming. 
The peeps in Rome have had a hard time making out the difference. But I guess having had a death grip on people's souls for over 1500 years, going on 2000 can skew your perspective.

And I am sorry, I will find equally amusing points in just about any form of organized religion. 


(If it wasn't for that bacon thing I could almost see myself looking into Judaism...question the question....)


Having said that, and while I am taking pot shots at the leadership, I will also dig through the lore of the religion of my friends and do such silly things as  bake a cake for the name sake saint's feast. Considering I have no earthy idea how that day is really celebrated. (yes, done did that, because he's a friend. sorry, cake got eaten before I thought of taking pictures)


----------



## Big Don (May 2, 2012)

Cash and Carry turns my stomach a little less than Explosions and Exxxctasy


----------



## granfire (May 2, 2012)

Big Don said:


> Cash and Carry turns my stomach a little less than Explosions and Exxxctasy



true.


----------

