# Military Application of Jump Kicks



## Makalakumu (Nov 21, 2003)

Perhaps in a self defense situation, jumps kicks may not be very effective.  In a military situation where lines of people rush at each other and attempt to kill, perhaps the powerful strike in a jump kick is more applicable.  To tie this to modern day self defense, jump kicks could be a long range first strike method.  For instance,  a crime is being committed to your loved ones and/or property and you witness this and would like to end the altercation as quickly as possible.  You run up and use a jump kicking technique.  To me, the speed and power of this technique would make it usefull in that situation.

upnorthkyosa


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## progressivetactics (Nov 21, 2003)

I think you are confusing 'flying' kicks and jump kicks.

Remember, the object of a "jump kick" is to Jump up and kick.
A flying kick travels through the air. It all depends on which leg you push off of.

Jump kicks are very useful in self defense, where flying kicks are much difficult as your opponent is less likely to stay put while you jog your 3 or 4 steps to begin flight.

bb


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## ABN (Nov 21, 2003)

From a military perspective, bear in mind that the average soldier will be encumbered by a fair amount of gear that is both heavy and bulky. This makes gravity that much more of an opponent in addition to the human one you're facing.

[edit] sorry also wanted to add that you have to factor terrain into the equation as well. Most situations that you would find yourself enagaged in a CQB situation are environments that don't facilitate kicks or H2H involving extensive range of motion. (i.e. urban, wooded, mountain,etc)

   I'm sure there are many other factors but these are the two big ones that immediately spring to mind. 

Regards,

andy


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## Makalakumu (Nov 21, 2003)

So, how do you think these techniques are usefull?


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## Zepp (Nov 21, 2003)

I've heard before that the jumping kicks now used in TKD and TSD were used to unseat riders on horseback.  That doesn't sound very credible to me, but I suppose that a very (and I mean _very_) skilled practitioner could manage it.

I think flying kicks are always a no-no in any situation where there is real danger.  (Unless you like to ambush your opponents by launching yourself at them from a balcony.)  Jumping kicks can be used in a self-defense situation, but they are completely dependent on the element of surprise, i.e. waiting until your opponent is in real close where he would never expect you to kick to his head.  And if you use one, you'd damn well better hit them hard with it, otherwise you could be in for a world of pain.

I think there's good reason why modern militaries don't tend to include jumping kicks in their hand-to-hand curriculum.


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## progressivetactics (Nov 21, 2003)

agreed, but also,  Training is what makes a martial artist good at doing difficult techniques.  We train regularly on all parts of our art, so we can do those things that seem un-expected, or dangerous, if the time/occasion arises.  Of course jump kicking is dangerous, but so is hook punch, if you don't train properly/often.

The jump back kick is very sneaky, and very very powerful.  The jump front kick is a straight quick attack and extremely hard to defend against, if done properly.  Remember, jump kicks indicate you jump up to hit, but not that you attack the head.  You can jump up, and still kick the groin, abdomin, chest, what ever.

I have also been taught it was for attacking horse back riders...and while possible, i doubt my fat *ss would have been very successful. 

bb


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## MountainSage (Nov 21, 2003)

It is possible that jumping kick were used to unseat horse riders.  Traditional Mongolian type horses were much shorter than modern horse.  Mongolian horses average less than 5 foot at the back compared to 6+ feet with modern breeds.  These older breeds were in southern China and probably Korea in the very early days. So, it was probably true many, many years ago, but unlikely in modern times.

Mountainsage


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## Marginal (Nov 21, 2003)

I've heard similar things said about high kicks in general. (Used to unseat horsemen.) If you think about it though, it makes zero sense. Even a 5' horse'd mean you'd have to be firing a kick about a foot better than that just to hit the rider high enough to disrupt their center of gravity. Then you still have to account for the fact that stirrups tend to keep the rider from popping off the horse even after a solid hit. 

Also begs the question, why didn't those ancient warriors actually think, and use spears and pikes? Far superior tool against someone on horseback vs any kind of kicking, and no successful army was ever known to fight bare handed, which makes one wonder why they'd bother developing such a risky tactic at all. 

Has all the earmarks of a MA myth IMO. 

The way my first instructor explained jumping kicks to me still makes the most sense to me. There's no real mythic reason needed. A kick's most powerful when fired straight out from the hip. Has the most leverage and range at that point. When you start angling your leg up, you sacrifice range and power. The jumping kick allows you to hit a higher target with optimal power and range. Handy in HTH in some situations, lousy against horsemen, tanks, or badgers.


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## MountainSage (Nov 22, 2003)

you make a vaild point, marginal.  One thing that I might point out to improve the line of thought is that in Asia during the time period we are discussing stirrup were not used by riders.  Stirrups were not invented until the time of the knights in Europe.  I guess the Asians figure it wasn't very far to fall from a short horse.  I agree this kicking people from horseback is probably myth, but sure sounds good to help promote a particular MA and it could have happened a few times, midget horses you know .

Mountainsage


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## Marginal (Nov 22, 2003)

Hmm. I've heard mixed reports on the stirrup aspect. The mongols used 'em, and quite a few peoples used simple soft loops as stirrups which also provide additional stability etc. 

Also might be worth noting that people have been getting taller over time right along with their horses.


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## someguy (Nov 22, 2003)

I do belive a long spear would work much better than a jmp  or flying kick.  Then again there is the concern of supplies.  So if it was a well suplied unit it would be better to NOT try a flying or jump kick.


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## Marginal (Nov 23, 2003)

There's still the matter of how difficult it is for someone to sharpen a stick/cut down a sapling and sharpen that vs someone developing their legs to the point where they can leap 6 feet into the air to unhorse someone. Even a poorly provisioned army should've been able to muster a better defense than jump kicking for little cost. (Especially prior to industrialization.) 

Unhorsing attackers with a jump kick really makes very little sense. (Even jumping 4 feet to kick someone off a tiny pony'd still result in the kicker having a massive disadvantage in regards to momentum and the weight behind the incoming horsemen. Even if the kick was successful, I'd wager good odds of the kicker ultimately being trampled for their trouble.) 

MountainSage is on the mark IMO. It seems more like a way to romanticise the technique and give it a "legendary" level application, give it some feel of great antiquity etc than something that was ever a viable tactic. Another way to lay claim to the idea that the arts are thousands of years old etc.


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## MountainSage (Nov 23, 2003)

guys,
maybe more like a posturing threat to any future enemies. "We have warrior that can unseat your horsemen with just a jumping kick, we don't need no spears."  What I've hear and read about the Asian cultural, "keep face" is so important this seems like a viable situation.  I wonder what the original source of information about using jumping kick for military application was drawn from.  If it was drawing, then the source would be very subjective.

Mountainsage


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## Marginal (Nov 23, 2003)

Could've gone about like this in the 1960's or so too for that matter:

Student: Why do we do jumping kicks?
Instructor: (Thinking) Knock people off horseback?
Student: Why do we do palm strikes?
Instructor" Becuase you'll be able to drive the nose bone up into the brain, causing instant death....


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2003)

I think about the first time I saw jump kicks in action.  I was on my butt looking at a guy who had just flown across the room and kicked me.  Quite effective, I assure you.  Whether your jumping up or flying, the kicks are similiar and could be effective.  Think about the stories of Hwa Rang.  One about them defending a bridge comes to mind, but I can't remember the specifics.  I think these kicks had application in battle because they are powerful, fast and intimidating.  They allowed the user, if they survived which would indicate successful, to keep moving to the next target.  Perhaps in our day and age, we do not understand the application anymore because of the changing nature of society.  I can see two guys fighting, though, and one of them has a friend.  In order to jump in, a jump kick could come in quite handy.


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## Marginal (Nov 24, 2003)

I've seen quite a few jump kickers crowded and smashed to the ground for their trouble too. Horses can close distance faster than people can, and they can do mean things like rear up and batter people with their hooves etc. I don't see how a given culture makes them less vunerable to that particular tactic. Their mileage may vary I suppose... 

The Scottisn, the Spartans, the Romans etc all have stories of lone warriors on bridges/narrow places holding off armies. No record of jumpkicking in those though.


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## Tommy_D (Apr 10, 2004)

As a hard and fast rule I follow, any kick that takes both feet off the ground, is asking for trouble.  It so very easy for your opponent to redirect your energy/momentum when you are in mid air.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 10, 2004)

As a former 11B, I cannot think of any practical application for a jump kick. If I have to fight hand to hand, something has gone terribly wrong.


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## dosandojang (Apr 11, 2004)

for Master Clay. (I was 5811/5816 USMC MP, SRT TM LDR)


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 11, 2004)

I knew something had to be wrong with you... not only a jar head but an MP and SRT.... 

Bit thats ok, we like you anyway.


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## loki09789 (Apr 11, 2004)

dosandojang said:
			
		

> for Master Clay. (I was 5811/5816 USMC MP, SRT TM LDR)



I have to agree with the current day military types:  Very few practical uses for jumping/flying kicks in modern tactics/warfare:

1.  Air Burst explosives/machine gun fire dictate low profile work.  I think that is why so many military types are buying into the grappling stuff or the standard takedown finish of basic techniques.

2.  Fatigue/formation:  In a firearms/maneuver warfare environment, troops are moving alot and the chance of injury in the one timer or repeated landings from jump/flying techniques would increase the already high risk of injury.  Plus, you could get behind or too far ahead of a formation in the attempt.  Grenades, firearms, call for fire, waiting, formation integrity seem to be the standards of the day.

3. With the possible shift to peacekeeping/non combative contact these types of techniques would seem as abusive/excessive as the Rodney King business if it was observed.  THere are more effective technological/technical/tactical choices that get the job done without furthering the already existing perception of brutallity by LEO/Combatives operators.


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## dosandojang (Apr 11, 2004)

for Master Clay!!!


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