# How to fight back if someone pushes you down?



## somehumanperson (Oct 8, 2016)

I am a college girl and recently got into a situation (it didn't go very far but it kind of freaked me out) and I realized I have no upper body strength to force someone off me. I always assumed if it came to it I would be able to get out of a situation if I really wanted to (dumb I know).

Is there a move or trick for someone with a slight build to get out of this kind of situation and force someone off?

Thanks if you take the time to respond!


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

Hi, welcome to MT. It must have been a very scary thing for you to have experienced and I really hope you have recovered. The thing is there is quite a lot you can do but I'm afraid there aren't any quick fixes or tricks we can teach you over the internet. Some will tell you that you can do this or that but doing it without been actually shown how to is going to be difficult. You won't trust the techniques enough to be able to use them when you need to. The best thing I think would be for you to take some martial arts training, it will give you more benefits than just learning some techniques. Are you up for learning martial arts? I'd suggest BJJ if you are, it will give you confidence in dealing with situations like this as well as more strength and certainly more techniques. Choking someone out with your legs is always good!


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## Buka (Oct 8, 2016)

Welcome to Martialtalk, somehumanpeson.

Any Martial training will more than likely help, but by your description, I agree with Tez, and the best part - the training is really kind of fun.


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## Hanzou (Oct 8, 2016)

Yeah, Bjj would be your best bet. In training you'll have larger men on top of you trying to impose their will. Bjj will teach you how to escape, or counter them.


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## Tames D (Oct 8, 2016)

I agree with all of the above. The only thing I would add is, look into a women's self defense workshop in your area. It can help you expedite what you need to know/do when/if  a situation like this happens to you again. A good class can give you some "tools" specially designed to help you defend yourself immediately.


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

There's often BJJ classes for women only which you might find more comfortable but I'd suggest you train with the men, you will then be more confident of your skills and that they work. The vast majority in men in martial arts are cool so don't worry too much about training with them.


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## Hanzou (Oct 8, 2016)

One more thing; Try to find a Gracie Jiujitsu school/affiliate. They tend to be more self defense oriented. If there isn't one in your area, any Brazilian Jiujitsu school should be fine.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 8, 2016)

I know most people on here don't like online Martial Arts courses but even if it's just a concept, I would always recommend the guys at Enter Shaolin, especially for women's self defense. They are very good at showing how someone weaker can use physics to overcome a stronger opponent. Take a look at some of their youtube videos and see what you think:






That said, the first step to successful self-defense is awareness. By carefully observing someone's body language and behaviour you can predict what they will do. Of course this doesn't help you if they come at you from behind, but awareness of your surroundings is definitely something worth learning.


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

Frankly, it's irresponsible to tell people to look at a video and let them think they'll be 'safe'. There are a lot of reasons we 'don't like' online videos, you cannot learn self defence from a video simple as. It creates a sense of false security as the viewer tries these things out on friends and family who of course aren't going to resist, there's no instructor to point out where you are going wrong and to make that little tweak which is going to be the difference between getting out of a move and not getting out.
'Physics' means nothing to someone being attacked, they need techniques they've trained until they are instinctive, that they know work because they've tried them on resisting opponents. Women need to be confident that what they learn will work, you do not get that through watching videos, quite honestly you stand better chance playing video games.


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

Women's Self Defence Programme - Gracie Barra Belfast (Northern Ireland) - Belfast's Premier Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ) Academy

Self Defense for Women at Marcio Cruz BJJ Tampa


Just a couple of examples of BJJ for women especially but the normal classes will be as good.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Frankly, it's irresponsible to tell people to look at a video and let them think they'll be 'safe'. There are a lot of reasons we 'don't like' online videos, you cannot learn self defence from a video simple as. It creates a sense of false security as the viewer tries these things out on friends and family who of course aren't going to resist, there's no instructor to point out where you are going wrong and to make that little tweak which is going to be the difference between getting out of a move and not getting out.
> 'Physics' means nothing to someone being attacked, they need techniques they've trained until they are instinctive, that they know work because they've tried them on resisting opponents. Women need to be confident that what they learn will work, you do not get that through watching videos, quite honestly you stand better chance playing video games.



I understand that which is why I called it a concept. Also, you can easily test these techniques our on friends and family while they are providing resistance. You can provide resistance without pain just to test techniques, just as you can spar with resistance without harming your opponent too much. As for the false sense of security, you can get the same thing with a self defense class. The danger with learning self defense techniques is they can give you a false sense of security, and as a result you do things that you normally wouldn't that put you at risk of attack. For example, let's say there is a dark narrow alley that you always avoid on the way home because you are scared of getting attacked in it. Then you go to a self defense class, learn your techniques to perfection and think to yourself, "I can defend myself now" and so take that dark narrow alley home and get attacked. Even if you manage to defend yourself from the attack and escape, your false sense of security has put you at risk. The irony is that the self defense class has put you more at risk than you were before.


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## drop bear (Oct 8, 2016)

lots of moves and tricks to get up. lots of moves and tricks to hold someone down.

If college you mean America then you should be able to get world class wrestling for basically nothing.

who do tend to know a bit about holding people down and getting back up.


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## marques (Oct 8, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I am a college girl and recently got into a situation (it didn't go very far but it kind of freaked me out) and I realized I have no upper body strength to force someone off me. I always assumed if it came to it I would be able to get out of a situation if I really wanted to (dumb I know).
> 
> Is there a move or trick for someone with a slight build to get out of this kind of situation and force someone off?
> 
> Thanks if you take the time to respond!


I am afraid there is no trick... Or more precisely, there are many many and they all may fail. So, at the end, you need to be able to choose the best option automatically, as well as plan B and C... (Yep, not so simple, this is why people keep studying it for decades).

Let's assume there is a trick. You would need to learn from an acknowledgeable person and practice a lot. A forum may indicate a way, at best. Good luck.


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## Hanzou (Oct 8, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I understand that which is why I called it a concept. Also, you can easily test these techniques our on friends and family while they are providing resistance. You can provide resistance without pain just to test techniques, just as you can spar with resistance without harming your opponent too much. As for the false sense of security, you can get the same thing with a self defense class. The danger with learning self defense techniques is they can give you a false sense of security, and as a result you do things that you normally wouldn't that put you at risk of attack. For example, let's say there is a dark narrow alley that you always avoid on the way home because you are scared of getting attacked in it. Then you go to a self defense class, learn your techniques to perfection and think to yourself, "I can defend myself now" and so take that dark narrow alley home and get attacked. Even if you manage to defend yourself from the attack and escape, your false sense of security has put you at risk. The irony is that the self defense class has put you more at risk than you were before.



The problem with his "concepts" are that they're overcomplicated, and "kung fu'd up" from wherever he originally got them. An eye poke from behind? Seriously?

For example his defense against a choke from behind was this;






Bjj's defenses against a rear choke from behind is this;






Bjj's defense comes from old school Judo. Our Kung Fu friend probably concocted that defense on his own, not putting much consideration into the variables. His ground fighting tactics (which is specifically what the OP was asking for) are laughable, and I'm being generous.

Irregardless, Tez is quite right, you really should learn this stuff from a qualified instructor, not a video. Additionally, there are no "tricks" to any of this. She would need to practice this stuff consistently over a span of time for them to serve her reliably in a real confrontation.

I can attest to the fact that a woman skilled in Bjj is a handful to deal with. The first person to ever choke me out in Bjj was a female purple belt about half my size, and she did it by being exceptionally good at escaping my top pressure.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 8, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I am a college girl and recently got into a situation (it didn't go very far but it kind of freaked me out) and I realized I have no upper body strength to force someone off me. I always assumed if it came to it I would be able to get out of a situation if I really wanted to (dumb I know).
> 
> Is there a move or trick for someone with a slight build to get out of this kind of situation and force someone off?
> 
> Thanks if you take the time to respond!


Reach up, take there pulse, on the neck, there, and simply push. The laws of nature force his hand, or feet, in this case.


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Also, you can easily test these techniques our on friends and family while they are providing resistance. You can provide resistance without pain just to test techniques, just as you can spar with resistance without harming your opponent too much.



What nonsense. If resistance is used and I very much doubt that friends and family would do it properly, what if the technique newly learnt from the internet doesn't work, which there is a high probability it won't, what does the person do then with no instructor to show how it done?



Midnight-shadow said:


> The danger with learning self defense techniques is they can give you a false sense of security, and as a result you do things that you normally wouldn't that put you at risk of attack.



Don't be absurd. In decades of training I've never known anyone say 'ooh look, now I can defend myself I will go do lots of extremely stupid things.'



Midnight-shadow said:


> For example, let's say there is a dark narrow alley that you always avoid on the way home because you are scared of getting attacked in it. Then you go to a self defense class, learn your techniques to perfection and think to yourself, "I can defend myself now" and so take that dark narrow alley home and get attacked



You are deluded or very naïve, self defence instruction is not just physical it's mental as well, people are far more likely to be careful and thoughtful about where they walk, how they behave and what they do after training than before.



Midnight-shadow said:


> The irony is that the self defense class has put you more at risk than you were before.



Wonderful advice to give someone scared of being attacked. You are talking out of your backside, I'm sure you think it helps but trust me it doesn't.
Yes, people do train for years, I have but there is good instruction available which doesn't take years to be able to defend yourself, which is why I suggested BJJ. It's not my main style but I do train in it. I'm competent not a instructor, still lots to learn but within a short time I could certainly manage to do what the OP asked...to get a man heavier than myself off me. I have confidence in a stressful situation I can do it because of the training, I know it works, the instructor has shown me variations of things that work for me being smaller and I have other techniques I can call on if and when needed. I can recommend karate too because that's my first style but the OP wanted specific techniques for certain situations, BJJ will fulfil that wish very well and hopefully the OP would enjoy training enough to explore BJJ some more and perhaps other styles too at a much later date.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> What nonsense. If resistance is used and I very much doubt that friends and family would do it properly, what if the technique newly learnt from the internet doesn't work, which there is a high probability it won't, what does the person do then with no instructor to show how it done?



Then you go back and rewatch the video. And I'm not just speaking out of my *** here. I'm not the strongest guy by a long shot by I've tried the techniques taught by Enter-shaolin on my body builder friends who have gone at me with all their strength and had success against them. Obviously we weren't in a high pressure situation and I was given the time to put the techniques into action, but with more practice I am sure I could use them in a high pressure situation.


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## somehumanperson (Oct 8, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> That said, the first step to successful self-defense is awareness. By carefully observing someone's body language and behaviour you can predict what they will do. Of course this doesn't help you if they come at you from behind, but awareness of your surroundings is definitely something worth learning.



The problem is that this person wasn't a random stranger it was a person I assumed I was friends with. Apparently they were just drunk and "kidding around" but I didn't find it very funny. I'm not scarred for life since nothing really happened other than that but it just made me want to be less helpless in the future


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## somehumanperson (Oct 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Hi, welcome to MT. It must have been a very scary thing for you to have experienced and I really hope you have recovered. The thing is there is quite a lot you can do but I'm afraid there aren't any quick fixes or tricks we can teach you over the internet. Some will tell you that you can do this or that but doing it without been actually shown how to is going to be difficult. You won't trust the techniques enough to be able to use them when you need to. The best thing I think would be for you to take some martial arts training, it will give you more benefits than just learning some techniques. Are you up for learning martial arts? I'd suggest BJJ if you are, it will give you confidence in dealing with situations like this as well as more strength and certainly more techniques. Choking someone out with your legs is always good!



Thank you  I guess I should look into some martial arts courses in my area. I'm just not the most athletically gifted person and don't want to feel like an idiot there in a course that's probably mostly guys with a sporty background.


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## marques (Oct 8, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I'm just not the most athletically gifted person and don't want to feel like an idiot there in a course that's probably mostly guys with a sporty background.


Any gym will understand your fitness level and demand according to (if they want to keep customers...). And they will put at the level. Not the best excuse.


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## msmitht (Oct 8, 2016)

To be specific you should learn the technical lift, the up kick (s), knee stomp and bicycle kicks first. All you can learn at a self defense class at your local BJJ school or in one of their classes.


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## KangTsai (Oct 8, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I am a college girl and recently got into a situation (it didn't go very far but it kind of freaked me out) and I realized I have no upper body strength to force someone off me. I always assumed if it came to it I would be able to get out of a situation if I really wanted to (dumb I know).
> 
> Is there a move or trick for someone with a slight build to get out of this kind of situation and force someone off?
> 
> Thanks if you take the time to respond!


If you're simply talking about pushing someone to create distance, there are a plethora of very simple techniques (e.g. push kick to the thigh) that frankly, you can learn yourself. I too recommend you take a martial arts class.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Frankly, it's irresponsible to tell people to look at a video and let them think they'll be 'safe'. There are a lot of reasons we 'don't like' online videos, you cannot learn self defence from a video simple as. It creates a sense of false security as the viewer tries these things out on friends and family who of course aren't going to resist, there's no instructor to point out where you are going wrong and to make that little tweak which is going to be the difference between getting out of a move and not getting out.
> 'Physics' means nothing to someone being attacked, they need techniques they've trained until they are instinctive, that they know work because they've tried them on resisting opponents. Women need to be confident that what they learn will work, you do not get that through watching videos, quite honestly you stand better chance playing video games.



I have a question: Did you even watch the video I linked? Or did you see mention of an online course and immediately hit the reply button in order to berate me for even considering it? You assume the techniques in the video don't work when you have no idea what's in the video and quite frankly all the drawbacks you have talked about regarding learning from videos can apply to real life lessons too. For example:

1. Resistance. You say that friends and family aren't going to resist, but the exact same can be said of very nervous people in a self defense class. In fact, I would argue that strangers in a self defense class are more likely to hold back for fear of hurting someone they don't know and don't trust in an unfamiliar environment. And even if they do resist a lot they aren't going to use lethal intent as you would face in a real life situation.

2. No Instructor. You are naturally assuming that the instructor knows what they are talking about, but they might not be. Granted an instructor might be able to see what you are doing wrong, but a well explained and clear video can show you, not to mention that when it comes to self-defense techniques it's pretty obvious if it doesn't work, in which case you can go back to the video and watch it again.

3. A false sense of security. As I've already mentioned you can get this from a class just as easily as from a video. How do you know the techniques work? By testing them, and you can do this from a video just as easily as in a class. Simply find a training partner and see what happens.

Please note, I am not saying just watching videos is going to help you in self defense, but if you watch an instructional video and then practice the techniques shown with a partner, you get the same result as you would from a class, assuming the techniques in the video actually work. Now, if you watch the video and have an issue with the techniques shown, then I will happily listen, but this blind prejudice towards instructional videos and online courses is quite frankly ridiculous to my mind.


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## KangTsai (Oct 8, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> if you watch an instructional video and then practice the techniques shown with a partner, you get the same result as you would from a class, assuming the techniques in the video actually work.


That mostly depends on how well the video was produced. From all the technique videos I've watched, small but critical technique details are often missed out.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 8, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> The problem with his "concepts" are that they're overcomplicated, and "kung fu'd up" from wherever he originally got them. An eye poke from behind? Seriously?
> 
> For example his defense against a choke from behind was this;
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. One thing I will say about the self defense techniques from Enter-shaolin is they require a good understanding of energy transfer and control, which is used a lot in Chinese Internal Martial Arts. These techniques takes a great deal of time to learn but once you have mastered the control of the energy, it doesn't matter how strong or big your opponent is because you negate their strength. Now, looking at the BJJ defense videos, the problem I have is you are expecting a smaller person to throw a much larger opponent. I don't practice BJJ so correct me if I'm wrong but I'd be amazed if you could use those moves on someone who is a lot bigger and stronger than you. Even in the video (granted the instructor is talking a lot), the instructor is bigger than his opponent and is getting out of breath using those moves. That first throw he does seems to use a lot of energy and strength to pull off, that a smaller or weaker person might not be able to.


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## drop bear (Oct 8, 2016)

Wait if it is the individual not the art.  Why don't videos work?

Just curious.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 8, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> Thank you  I guess I should look into some martial arts courses in my area. I'm just not the most athletically gifted person and don't want to feel like an idiot there in a course that's probably mostly guys with a sporty background.


Don't worry too much about that. Most schools have a mix of athletic levels among beginners, and most students are very welcoming to new students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 8, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Thanks for the reply. One thing I will say about the self defense techniques from Enter-shaolin is they require a good understanding of energy transfer and control, which is used a lot in Chinese Internal Martial Arts. These techniques takes a great deal of time to learn but once you have mastered the control of the energy, it doesn't matter how strong or big your opponent is because you negate their strength. Now, looking at the BJJ defense videos, the problem I have is you are expecting a smaller person to throw a much larger opponent. I don't practice BJJ so correct me if I'm wrong but I'd be amazed if you could use those moves on someone who is a lot bigger and stronger than you. Even in the video (granted the instructor is talking a lot), the instructor is bigger than his opponent and is getting out of breath using those moves. That first throw he does seems to use a lot of energy and strength to pull off, that a smaller or weaker person might not be able to.


Those moves work quite well on a much larger person. We have very similar techniques in NGA, and I actually find them easier on a larger person than on someone my own size.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Wait if it is the individual not the art.  Why don't videos work?
> 
> Just curious.


::GRUMBLE::


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## Hanzou (Oct 8, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Thanks for the reply. One thing I will say about the self defense techniques from Enter-shaolin is they require a good understanding of energy transfer and control, which is used a lot in Chinese Internal Martial Arts. These techniques takes a great deal of time to learn but once you have mastered the control of the energy, it doesn't matter how strong or big your opponent is because you negate their strength.



Didn't you say that you mastered these techniques by watching  video?



> Now, looking at the BJJ defense videos, the problem I have is you are expecting a smaller person to throw a much larger opponent. I don't practice BJJ so correct me if I'm wrong but I'd be amazed if you could use those moves on someone who is a lot bigger and stronger than you. Even in the video (granted the instructor is talking a lot), the instructor is bigger than his opponent and is getting out of breath using those moves. That first throw he does seems to use a lot of energy and strength to pull off, that a smaller or weaker person might not be able to.



It's the same principle found in the one armed shoulder throw in Judo;







And yes, a smaller person can definitely do it on a bigger person. Try it sometime.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 8, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Didn't you say that you mastered these techniques by watching  video?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said I was able to do them on someone providing resistance who was a lot stronger than myself. I would need to practice them for a long time to be able to do it in a real life situation.


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## Steve (Oct 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> lots of moves and tricks to get up. lots of moves and tricks to hold someone down.
> 
> If college you mean America then you should be able to get world class wrestling for basically nothing.
> 
> who do tend to know a bit about holding people down and getting back up.


Wrestling is more commonly available in high school.   College can be more difficult.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Did you even watch the video I linked?



yes I did



Midnight-shadow said:


> said of very nervous people in a self defense class



I'm not talking about going to a self defence class I'm talking about going to a BJJ class.



Midnight-shadow said:


> You are naturally assuming that the instructor knows what they are talking about, but they might not be.



Well yes, the classes I'm talking about do have very good instructors. If you noticed only you are talking about 'self defence classes', I'm talking about BJJ classes for a start. You can think I've been too hard on you but we are talking about something very serious here, people's lives and safety, this isn't the time for faffing around with things that may or may not work. I have little time for 'self defence' course for a number of reasons and I am not talking about them for the OP. I mentioned a specific style for a specific reason. Yes a good many other styles with teach you to defend yourself but I believe at this moment in time it's BJJ she needs.
*I posted the BJJ videos* *which are NOT self defence videos* *by the way but advertising for BJJ clubs and systems, to show that there are classes out there that a woman will feel comfortable in so don't bother critiquing the techniques you see in them, that would be silly. *Your comment likewise.

As a woman I've never felt out of place in a BJJ class, as an older woman I've been made to feel very welcome even when I've been the only female in the class of younger men. Not all were fit, not all hot shot BJJers, there were all standards of fitness and knowledge. There is nervousness to start with, there always will be when doing something new but you aren't thrown to the lions, you aren't pushed beyond what you can do just a little further and the satisfaction at every achievement even small ones is lovely.

If the OP could post up the area she's in there's many of us who can recommend good places to train BJJ in.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2016)

What ever you decide. make sure the school has a self-defense focus and perspective of teaching martial arts.  Training for self-defense is not the same as training for sport.  Those who train for self-defense will have additional training in things like awareness, recognizing intent. positioning (how not to place yourself in a vulnerable situation). Things like this tend to come up in discussion when the school trains martial arts from a self-defense perspective.

Martial arts is no different than anything else. Train for purpose.  If you want to be good in Martial Art sport then train for sport.  If you want to be good in martial art self defense then you train for self defense.

Whatever you do.  Don't learn from a video.  Get some face time with students and teachers.  Many of them have stories about situations that can help you as well and that's on top of learning the martial arts.


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## Steve (Oct 9, 2016)

Personally, I think any Bjj school would be great, and more is made about the self defense "focus" than reality warrants.  You will be well served by training in a style that focuses on developing core strength, agility and a healthy lifestyle.

Most of the rest is to take common sense steps to avoid high risk behaviors. 

The advantage BJJ has over other styles is the emphasis On ground fighting.   If a guy pushes you down, you will be learning skills that directly address returning to your feet and/or defending yourself on the ground.

This street vs sport thing is overblown, and sport arts have many advantages over "street" arts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> Personally, I think any Bjj school would be great, and more is made about the self defense "focus" than reality warrants.  You will be well served by training in a style that focuses on developing core strength, agility and a healthy lifestyle.
> 
> Most of the rest is to take common sense steps to avoid high risk behaviors.
> 
> ...


There is sometimes over-emphasis on that focus. However, if someone is wanting to learn to defend themselves and BJJ is a good fit for them, I'd suggest they go look for a BJJ school that deals with self-defense (I think most Gracie schools do?), because they'll be more likely to deal with scenario training that's for the street early on, rather than the octagon. Training to defend against BJJ attacks is mostly useful for competition, though this training will also help better develop the principles. Early on, it's good if the instructor actually focuses on teaching some defenses against the kinds of attacks a BJJ'er would know better than to try.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> yes I did
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, I misread. So you would choose a BJJ class that focused on self defense (as opposed to sport or fitness) over a specialised self defense course? Maybe I should give BJJ a try, even though the school I'm with practices dog style kung fu, which is ground fighting focusing more on take-downs and holds using your legs rather than your arms.


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## Steve (Oct 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> There is sometimes over-emphasis on that focus. However, if someone is wanting to learn to defend themselves and BJJ is a good fit for them, I'd suggest they go look for a BJJ school that deals with self-defense (I think most Gracie schools do?), because they'll be more likely to deal with scenario training that's for the street early on, rather than the octagon. Training to defend against BJJ attacks is mostly useful for competition, though this training will also help better develop the principles. Early on, it's good if the instructor actually focuses on teaching some defenses against the kinds of attacks a BJJ'er would know better than to try.


That's fine.  I think the idea that it must be "self defense" oriented is overstated.  Not that it isn't a valid point, but really more that the distance from sport to self defense is a short one.  Shorter. I think, than the distance between " self defense oriented " and self defense, in some cases.


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## Hanzou (Oct 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> There is sometimes over-emphasis on that focus. However, if someone is wanting to learn to defend themselves and BJJ is a good fit for them, I'd suggest they go look for a BJJ school that deals with self-defense (I think most Gracie schools do?), because they'll be more likely to deal with scenario training that's for the street early on, rather than the octagon. Training to defend against BJJ attacks is mostly useful for competition, though this training will also help better develop the principles. Early on, it's good if the instructor actually focuses on teaching some defenses against the kinds of attacks a BJJ'er would know better than to try.



Even training against a Bjjer is good for learning how to escape from under someone larger than you, maybe even better since a Bjjer will know how to keep you in that position and apply top pressure. A side mount is a side mount whether you're doing sport or self defense. The only thing missing from sport practice would be the striking component. However, if you're really good at escaping positions, you can really learn strike defense in your spare time. The main thing is learning how to escape those positions, which a sport school can teach just as well as a school based in self defense.

Again, I can personally attest to how good women become at Bjj escapes after just a few months of practice. The fact that they tend to be smaller forces them to be more agile and be better at escapes and counters, whereas larger males tend to stand their ground and push back, trying to establish top position, and be more aggressive.

I think you as an Aikidoka would appreciate that.  Personally as a larger male, I always envied the smaller practitioner. I really think they end up being better in the art in the long run.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Ok, I misread. So you would choose a BJJ class that focused on self defense (as opposed to sport or fitness) over a specialised self defense course? Maybe I should give BJJ a try, even though the school I'm with practices dog style kung fu, which is ground fighting focusing more on take-downs and holds using your legs rather than your arms.



'Specialised' self defence course which are on for only so many weeks are a waste of time and money. The participants learn x amount of techniques per week which they promptly forget because they aren't practised repeatedly so that they become instinctive. They are usually more complicated techniques than non martial arts people can take in. They simply don't remember the techniques let long try to remember how they went when under stress.

I chose BJJ that has self defence techniques for the OP for specific reason, that she asked for techniques/tricks to get someone off her. Unless you are a young, lighter weight woman you can't imagine the horror of being pinned down by a man lying on you, trying to be intimate with you. Knowing that even in that position she isn't helpless and can get herself out of it makes a huge difference. At this moment she doesn't want takedowns, kicks, punches and holds, she wants something that will give her confidence in a similar situation to the one she found herself in. However by taking up self defence BJJ class I hope she will go on to learn other things which will give her even more confidence, strength and I hope enjoyment of training ( it is addictive because apart from anything else it's such good fun). If after training for self defence the sport appeals then it's all good.



gpseymour said:


> I'd suggest they go look for a BJJ school that deals with self-defense




This is why I posted up the links to BJJ self defence, not for a critique of BJJ techniques lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> That's fine.  I think the idea that it must be "self defense" oriented is overstated.  Not that it isn't a valid point, but really more that the distance from sport to self defense is a short one.  Shorter. I think, than the distance between " self defense oriented " and self defense, in some cases.


I can agree with that. There's less difference - especially in the long run - between a sport-oriented BJJ school, for instance, and one that maintains more of a SD orientation. So long as neither wanders too far off to one side (SD school losing the focus on testing against a resisting opponent, which appears to be a key part of BJJ, or sport school getting too focused on preparing for the test of the competition and losing some of the functionality of the art beyond competition). I think the difference is especially small when we speak of BJJ, because its roots are on both sides of that spectrum, keeping it fairly well centered.


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## Kickboxer101 (Oct 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> Personally, I think any Bjj school would be great, and more is made about the self defense "focus" than reality warrants.  You will be well served by training in a style that focuses on developing core strength, agility and a healthy lifestyle.
> 
> Most of the rest is to take common sense steps to avoid high risk behaviors.
> 
> ...


I agree do people really if a random drunk attacked a world champion boxer or kickboxer that the fighter would lose just because they fight in a ring


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Even training against a Bjjer is good for learning how to escape from under someone larger than you, maybe even better since a Bjjer will know how to keep you in that position and apply top pressure. A side mount is a side mount whether you're doing sport or self defense. The only thing missing from sport practice would be the striking component. However, if you're really good at escaping positions, you can really learn strike defense in your spare time. The main thing is learning how to escape those positions, which a sport school can teach just as well as a school based in self defense.
> 
> Again, I can personally attest to how good women become at Bjj escapes after just a few months of practice. The fact that they tend to be smaller forces them to be more agile and be better at escapes and counters, whereas larger males tend to stand their ground and push back, trying to establish top position, and be more aggressive.
> 
> I think you as an Aikidoka would appreciate that.  Personally as a larger male, I always envied the smaller practitioner. I really think they end up being better in the art in the long run.


Oh, I have no issue with that, Hanzou. My point was that a beginner, especially, will learn usable defensive techniques faster if they are not trying to deal with the skill of someone who specifically knows how to stop them. I don't know how most BJJ schools train (okay, not sure I know much about how ANY of them train ), but in most styles a starting focus on self-defense usually leads to teaching a few simple, repeatable techniques that wouldn't come into play against a skilled opponent, because they wouldn't commit the common errors. So, I can teach a student how to off-balance an average person who has them down pretty quickly, but that same technique won't work on someone with a year (or probably less) BJJ, because they'll avoid giving the positions an untrained person would give. I'd expect what works on a BJJ person to mostly work on untrained people, but will take more learning. That's the primary advantage at the beginning of an instructor taking a self-defense approach to the art - any art. After a year or so (at the most), I'd expect SD-oriented BJJ looks a lot like good sport-oriented BJJ, if both are true to the full curriculum.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2016)

One thing to remember, that on this thread we are looking to help one lass who wants to learn something specific, we should try to help rather than debate 'sports v self defence' etc etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> I agree do people really if a random drunk attacked a world champion boxer or kickboxer that the fighter would lose just because they fight in a ring


Using a world champion ANYTHING in that sentence is beyond the point. For good combat sport (I refer to sport that doesn't lose sight of effectiveness), a successful fighter at any level should be able to deal with common empty-hand attacks. The only limitations would be with sports like boxing, where they don't deal with getting tackled so might have difficulty there, and perhaps with grappling-only sports whose exponents might tend to train in ways that leave them inordinately exposed to strikes.


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## Kickboxer101 (Oct 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Using a world champion ANYTHING in that sentence is beyond the point. For good combat sport (I refer to sport that doesn't lose sight of effectiveness), a successful fighter at any level should be able to deal with common empty-hand attacks. The only limitations would be with sports like boxing, where they don't deal with getting tackled so might have difficulty there, and perhaps with grappling-only sports whose exponents might tend to train in ways that leave them inordinately exposed to strikes.


Maybe not tackles but boxers do get clinched and do learn how to work out of the clinch or how to hit from the clinch. Obviously not as much as wrestling or judo but they do deal with clinch work


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> boxers do get clinched and do learn how to work out of the clinch



Yeah the ref tells them to break it up.

and this helps the OP how?


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## Hanzou (Oct 9, 2016)

Some basic stuff to help the OP until she gets into a school:
Basic mount escape:





If you have problems with it, check out Rickson Gracie's breakdown of it;






Hip escape drills:





You can find the various applications for the hip escape on youtube.


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## Steve (Oct 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> One thing to remember, that on this thread we are looking to help one lass who wants to learn something specific, we should try to help rather than debate 'sports v self defence' etc etc.


Agreed.  I only bring it up to suggest it's not that big a deal, and if she finds a good BJJ school, it really isn't that big a deal if it's sport or street. The self defense applications can be learned after the basics. And it's not as big a leap as some would imply.


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## Jenna (Oct 9, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I am a college girl and recently got into a situation (it didn't go very far but it kind of freaked me out) and I realized I have no upper body strength to force someone off me. I always assumed if it came to it I would be able to get out of a situation if I really wanted to (dumb I know).
> 
> Is there a move or trick for someone with a slight build to get out of this kind of situation and force someone off?
> 
> Thanks if you take the time to respond!


Hey there  Do not know if you are still around or got your answer?? Some people here have given good practical advice and suggestions.  I would not repeat what is said, only it sound to me that you maybe feel your confidence overall has taken a knock from this?  I imagine this can only be made worse that the person who did this on you was or is a friend.  This could feel like a sort of double blow maybe.  I know people this can cause them to question their selves at some levels.  You have supportive friends there with you?? You know I think you are brave and I think you are awesome to post this here, because you know there are always other girls in similar situations that wonder oh goodness what do I do now to stop this happening.  Thank you for posting.  I do not have much to add only there are lot of ways for you to gain back the confidence that is yours as a young woman that you deserve to have and to keep for always.  Physical training of any kind will help yes, does not have even to be fancy martial arts to make you in some way unhurtable, can be just doing a little fitness routine or do a few little things in your college gym or a dance class or jogging or whatever, and but mostly I would just want to urge you to take this incident in context of your life as an entirety and not allow it to define anything too much about you. Please let us know how you get on and what you make of it all and what you decide. ANd anyway, you are not just somehumanperson, you are awesomehumanperson  A bientot, Jxxxx


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## Kickboxer101 (Oct 9, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I am a college girl and recently got into a situation (it didn't go very far but it kind of freaked me out) and I realized I have no upper body strength to force someone off me. I always assumed if it came to it I would be able to get out of a situation if I really wanted to (dumb I know).
> 
> Is there a move or trick for someone with a slight build to get out of this kind of situation and force someone off?
> 
> Thanks if you take the time to respond!


Sort of off topic but did you get the police involved even if it didnt go far it's still assault


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## Kickboxer101 (Oct 9, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> Thank you  I guess I should look into some martial arts courses in my area. I'm just not the most athletically gifted person and don't want to feel like an idiot there in a course that's probably mostly guys with a sporty background.


I wouldn't worry about that these days there's plenty of woman into martial arts and not all sporty guys either. In my experience the guys who do martial arts aren't that sporty if they were they'd be doing their own sports instead of martial arts. I know that doesn't apply all the time and sure there may be some sporty guys but even if they are if your at a good school it shouldn't be a problem


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## Juany118 (Oct 9, 2016)

Welcome somehumanperson and I would also second Tez with one addition.  Try different arts/self defense methods, then pick the one that feels right to you.  Any method of self defense isn't just about learning physical techniques, it's also about how your personality and mind mesh with them.  Some people don't do well with grappling heavy arts because getting that close is uncomfortable and thy never truly overcome it.  So find the school/art/method and teacher that "fits", that just feels right.  That is, imo, an important and often overlooked portion of learning to defend oneself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Maybe not tackles but boxers do get clinched and do learn how to work out of the clinch or how to hit from the clinch. Obviously not as much as wrestling or judo but they do deal with clinch work


That's why I didn't use a clinch as the example. The physics of a clinch aren't the same as someone making a stupid, unskilled tackling attempt to get you down so you can't move while they hit you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> Agreed.  I only bring it up to suggest it's not that big a deal, and if she finds a good BJJ school, it really isn't that big a deal if it's sport or street. The self defense applications can be learned after the basics. And it's not as big a leap as some would imply.


This is true of BJJ, by all reports.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Try different arts/self defense methods, then pick the one that feels right to you



If you want to train self defence rather than just the thing you want to know how to get out of, I'd add. My answer of BJJ was specific to the situation and the question asked by the OP. If she wants to go on and train self defence then yes have a look around but for the specific answer to the specific question I'd still say BJJ.


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## Ademadis (Oct 9, 2016)

Hi OP, late to the party but hope everything's ok!

There's a lot of good advice here to go over and I have nothing to really add, only thing I want to repeat is the importance of actually attending regular martial arts classes. There are no 'tricks', it's all mentality and technique. Martial arts and self defence is in reality incredibly hard to learn (initially, I've not yet met a single person that can't improve somehow), it's so much easier if you have a class assisting your learning experience and a good teacher who can constantly push and expand your knowledge. Yes watch videos, but apply them with the nuances and mastery you gain in full classes.

Good luck! If you ever want to discuss any techniques or ask a question you can find us all here 

Extra:
Also, with regards to the incident; Whatever this friend did to you it wasn't 'bants' and it wasn't right. You didn't deserve it and he had no justified reason to put you in that position, it's unacceptable. If he ever does anything like it again tell someone and raise hell, you are COMPLETELY in the right to do so.
Us at MT, your friends, family and the law are all on your side. Always remember that.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> Extra:
> Also, with regards to the incident; Whatever this friend did to you it wasn't 'bants' and it wasn't right. You didn't deserve it and he had no justified reason to put you in that position, it's unacceptable. If he ever does anything like it again tell someone and raise hell, you are COMPLETELY in the right to do so.
> Us at MT, your friends, family and the law are all on your side. Always remember that.



I wish I could do more than just 'agree' to this, it's the best thing I've read for a long while. thank you.


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## drop bear (Oct 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Oh, I have no issue with that, Hanzou. My point was that a beginner, especially, will learn usable defensive techniques faster if they are not trying to deal with the skill of someone who specifically knows how to stop them. I don't know how most BJJ schools train (okay, not sure I know much about how ANY of them train ), but in most styles a starting focus on self-defense usually leads to teaching a few simple, repeatable techniques that wouldn't come into play against a skilled opponent, because they wouldn't commit the common errors. So, I can teach a student how to off-balance an average person who has them down pretty quickly, but that same technique won't work on someone with a year (or probably less) BJJ, because they'll avoid giving the positions an untrained person would give. I'd expect what works on a BJJ person to mostly work on untrained people, but will take more learning. That's the primary advantage at the beginning of an instructor taking a self-defense approach to the art - any art. After a year or so (at the most), I'd expect SD-oriented BJJ looks a lot like good sport-oriented BJJ, if both are true to the full curriculum.



Nah. The advanced move is just the beginner move done better.


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## Juany118 (Oct 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> If you want to train self defence rather than just the thing you want to know how to get out of, I'd add. My answer of BJJ was specific to the situation and the question asked by the OP. If she wants to go on and train self defence then yes have a look around but for the specific answer to the specific question I'd still say BJJ.



Tez, the only reason I said what I did is because I know some people are completely twitchy about in close...even if they know the techniques they panic and as I sometimes say "vapor lock" when it comes to physical techniques.  So if it is as simple as a matter as you say, just addressing a particular situation, I recommend the use of tools.

Now mayhaps this attitude only applies in a place like the US...(I don't know if OC, https://www.amazon.com/Comtech-Stinger-Keating-Re-designed-Manipulator/dp/B006U4CPUS, and other such tools are legal elsewhere).  I have just personally experienced (yes only anecdotal) that techniques from any specific MA only work if you really study it and/or practice it AND even if it's simply study one technique it has to "fit".  Example I know cops who only know wrist locks, then I know cops who we call "hat holders" (not sure if that has meaning in GB or not) because even getting in that close to do a wrist lock, after years of confrontation, is beyond them.  Thing is that technique has to "fit" and some people just don't fit with grappling.  So if it doesn't fit or you can't do the training to overcome your natural reaction train with a tool.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Tez, the only reason I said what I did is because I know some people are completely twitchy about in close...even if they know the techniques they panic and as I sometimes say "vapor lock" when it comes to physical techniques



Again though, I said that if you are young, female and not strong having a larger, stronger male on top of you who is trying to be intimate is horrendous, especially in this case where it was someone known to the girl, you don't carry weapons and have them ready to use against those you consider friends.  Wrist locks won't work in that situation either, it needs specific techniques to get a bigger man off you, I believe BJJ provides those specific moves, wrist locks, throws, etc etc will not do that.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2016)

drop bear said:


>



That vid perfectly illustrates why the OP should join a proper Bjj gym. You can learn the escapes to get you from up under someone, but you also need to be taught the potential follow-ups to the escape.

In that vid the woman hip escaped, but then slid right into open guard to prevent her opponent from re-establishing top control. If you're not trained by a certified insructor you're not going to understand why that's important.


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## Juany118 (Oct 10, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Again though, I said that if you are young, female and not strong having a larger, stronger male on top of you who is trying to be intimate is horrendous, especially in this case where it was someone known to the girl, you don't carry weapons and have them ready to use against those you consider friends.  Wrist locks won't work in that situation either, it needs specific techniques to get a bigger man off you, I believe BJJ provides those specific moves, wrist locks, throws, etc etc will not do that.



Oh I agree with everything you say, don't get me wrong, except the weapon thing.  Now admittedly I have a degree of paranoia that most don't so even if I am going to my parents house I have some sort of weapon on me and I am not required by my boss to do so.  I also just used wrist locks as an example of a common grappling manuver.  I have just seen people, including victims, that have trained in grappling but when it comes to an "out of training" scenario, they mentally "lock up" in terms of performing the grappling stuff.  Our OP may not have this mental block, in that case awesome.  If they do then I just suggest an alternative, even with friends or family see a self defense tool like a condom, better to not need it and have one than need one and not have it.   The OP though is the only one who can be the judge of this though.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2016)

I think the problem someone who has been the victim of an attempted assault is going to have is more trusting someone not to do it when a similar situation of intimacy crops up, I think far from having a mental block about grappling they will go into it too fast before being sure they are going to be assaulted. Preparation is good but pre-empting a situation which isn't going to happen because that's not what the chap has in mind is going to be a problem.


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## somehumanperson (Oct 10, 2016)

Jenna said:


> Hey there  Do not know if you are still around or got your answer?? Some people here have given good practical advice and suggestions.  I would not repeat what is said, only it sound to me that you maybe feel your confidence overall has taken a knock from this?  I imagine this can only be made worse that the person who did this on you was or is a friend.  This could feel like a sort of double blow maybe.  I know people this can cause them to question their selves at some levels.  You have supportive friends there with you?? You know I think you are brave and I think you are awesome to post this here, because you know there are always other girls in similar situations that wonder oh goodness what do I do now to stop this happening.  Thank you for posting.  I do not have much to add only there are lot of ways for you to gain back the confidence that is yours as a young woman that you deserve to have and to keep for always.  Physical training of any kind will help yes, does not have even to be fancy martial arts to make you in some way unhurtable, can be just doing a little fitness routine or do a few little things in your college gym or a dance class or jogging or whatever, and but mostly I would just want to urge you to take this incident in context of your life as an entirety and not allow it to define anything too much about you. Please let us know how you get on and what you make of it all and what you decide. ANd anyway, you are not just somehumanperson, you are awesomehumanperson  A bientot, Jxxxx



aww thank you  it seems a bit extreme to start a martial art based on one incident. I guess I was just looking for a "magic trick" to avoid situations like this in the future. I'm okay I just don't like feeling weak and defenseless and this made me think of things differently.


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## somehumanperson (Oct 10, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Sort of off topic but did you get the police involved even if it didnt go far it's still assault


no, I don't want to get anyone involved. It didn't go very far and a lot of people wouldn't have even taken it the way I did. I just want to be able to stand up a bit more for myself in the future.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> aww thank you  it seems a bit extreme to start a martial art based on one incident. I guess I was just looking for a "magic trick" to avoid situations like this in the future. I'm okay I just don't like feeling weak and defenseless and this made me think of things differently.


There are many of us who started because of one incident that left us feeling that way.


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## somehumanperson (Oct 10, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> Hi OP, late to the party but hope everything's ok!
> 
> There's a lot of good advice here to go over and I have nothing to really add, only thing I want to repeat is the importance of actually attending regular martial arts classes. There are no 'tricks', it's all mentality and technique. Martial arts and self defence is in reality incredibly hard to learn (initially, I've not yet met a single person that can't improve somehow), it's so much easier if you have a class assisting your learning experience and a good teacher who can constantly push and expand your knowledge. Yes watch videos, but apply them with the nuances and mastery you gain in full classes.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your response, I know it wasn't cool. That's why I'm so pissed and I want to make sure no one ever does that again. I don't care if it was a joke or not or if he was just drunk. It's not happening again ever.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> it seems a bit extreme to start a martial art based on one incident



Nah, do it because it's amazing fun, the people are great and you end up fitter, more confident and positive with killer moves! Seriously, you can do it as a hobby/sport/for fitness/for defence but whatever I guarantee you will end up as addicted as we are ( over 40 years and counting) enjoying the camaraderie, the jokes, the sheer exuberance of it.


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## somehumanperson (Oct 10, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think the problem someone who has been the victim of an attempted assault is going to have is more trusting someone not to do it when a similar situation of intimacy crops up, I think far from having a mental block about grappling they will go into it too fast before being sure they are going to be assaulted. Preparation is good but pre-empting a situation which isn't going to happen because that's not what the chap has in mind is going to be a problem.



I like to think of myself as a very careful person, I don't just go off with drunk strangers (not that people who do still deserve to be assaulted) or do stuff like that. But I still like to go out and hang out with people and I really thought this person was someone who would never do this kind of thing. The thing is I feel weird since I don't know if I'm overreacting since I wouldn't consider it assault for someone to push you down and hold you there for a few seconds but I just got creeped out since I really tried to get him off and I don't know if I could have if he wasn't "just joking".


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I like to think of myself as a very careful person, I don't just go off with drunk strangers (not that people who do still deserve to be assaulted) or do stuff like that. But I still like to go out and hang out with people and I really thought this person was someone who would never do this kind of thing. The thing is I feel weird since I don't know if I'm overreacting since I wouldn't consider it assault for someone to push you down and hold you there for a few seconds but I just got creeped out since I really tried to get him off and I don't know if I could have if he wasn't "just joking".


I wasn't there, and am not in your skin, but it doesn't sound like you're overreacting. I am not fond of people playing physical power games with unwilling participants, and that's what this sounds like.


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## Jenna (Oct 10, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> aww thank you  it seems a bit extreme to start a martial art based on one incident. I guess I was just looking for a "magic trick" to avoid situations like this in the future. I'm okay I just don't like feeling weak and defenseless and this made me think of things differently.


To want the magic trick is I am certain just what anyone would think  Weak and defenceless I get that, it make sense thank you for clarifying  You were pushed down and held by someone who you felt was a friend. To me that would be difficult enough to rationalise or make much sense of. I ask my self what would I do. Well, maybe have you spoken or approached this person with someone you CAN trust? I mean just to tell them straight it was not appropriate nor welcome nor would you like to imagine it would ever happen again? Maybe they just have no clue how it have affected you? Maybe they did not mean it the way it happened.  You can set them straight.  For the sake of others too.  I could not advise just suggest  x I am sure you have other ideas of what it might take to make you feel more confident again? Like MA is certainly an idea over a longer time if you are minded to try it, and but maybe there are others too that come from your own friendships and relationships and your other social supports?? 

You feel defenceless that make sense too.  Maybe some time it is like something of you is taken away even in just a silly incident.  Fact is, like in this one single instance maybe you had not the defence, that is fact, and but then again there is not anyone here like lots of expertise in MA who have not found theirselves on the wrong end of something unexpected. And these are people who have done this for many years and would not consider their selves defenceless  I just mean there is no absolute and nor does one incident declare anything about you if you follow? Feeling a thing to be true of your self does not always mean it *is* true  x 

And yes, I think it is natural to just want the magic trick, we all do this at some point is true  x Thinking of things differently is not such a bad thing maybe.  And martial arts, sure, it is a magic trick, just like any magic trick maybe take a little time before doing it on stage maybe.. I wonder if the magic trick is in you already, maybe it has just dropped down and needs fetched back out again  Hope you get your answers my awesomehumanperson friend, even if you do not feel awesome because of actions of this misguided friend does not mean you are not awesome all the same.  Everybody here think you are awesome and have courage to come here and be so open about what happened and to try to get back   Wishes xxx


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## Deleted member 34973 (Oct 10, 2016)

A lot of great answers, I would add that whomever you train with, actually has real world experience with the self defense technique. 

I mean really, what good does it do to train with someone who only has dojo or competition experience. JMO


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2016)

Jenna said:


> Everybody here think you are awesome and have courage to come here and be so open about what happened and to try to get back



*Absolutely!*
You are not over reacting at all, anything physical anyone does to you that you don't like and don't want is assault in the legal sense as well as the moral one. We've had people complaining here in the UK because the police have been putting anti spit hoods on some they arrest, but until you have been spat at ( which is assault) most people have no idea what it's like. It's disgusting, often dangerous and something you do not want to be covered in yet they say the police are over reacting, they aren't, a face full of someone's spit is beyond disgusting.
The fault is all your friends, no one has the right to make anyone feel uncomfortable or fell under pressure. I rather suspect he thought he'd chance his arm and perhaps you'd be receptive to the idea of something more. He's the one in the wrong,, he's lucky though, I'd have broken both his collarbones and watched his arms dangle but that is just me lol, I may be a little OTT at times. ( cos really one collarbone would have been enough).
Don't beat yourself up, live well and enjoy your life.


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## Ademadis (Oct 10, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I like to think of myself as a very careful person, I don't just go off with drunk strangers (not that people who do still deserve to be assaulted) or do stuff like that. But I still like to go out and hang out with people and I really thought this person was someone who would never do this kind of thing. The thing is I feel weird since I don't know if I'm overreacting since I wouldn't consider it assault for someone to push you down and hold you there for a few seconds but I just got creeped out since I really tried to get him off and I don't know if I could have if he wasn't "just joking".



Aye you've got it right, the general rule of self defense is "if you can,don't be there".
And honestly you're not overreacting.
You're concerned for your safety, that's always a legitimate concern no matter what made you worry.

I'd still say at least have a go with martial arts, most clubs do the first couple of sessions free so you've got nothing to loose.

Also bump to what Tez says, martial arts are great fun, good for fitness and really good for growing confidence


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> aww thank you  it seems a bit extreme to start a martial art based on one incident. I guess I was just looking for a "magic trick" to avoid situations like this in the future. I'm okay I just don't like feeling weak and defenseless and this made me think of things differently.



Magic tricks just take a lot of behind the scenes work.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 11, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> Thank you  I guess I should look into some martial arts courses in my area. I'm just not the most athletically gifted person and don't want to feel like an idiot there in a course that's probably mostly guys with a sporty background.



For whatever it is worth, when I started Hapkido, I was in my 40s, in pretty good shape, and years before, had studied TKD for 18 months or so.  How hard could it be?  

Suddenly I seemed to have lost all muscle control.  But I soon learned to look for the little things that made it work (often after the 2nd or 3rd time I was shown).  If you want to, you learn can too.  And then it gets easier.  Although some may not wish to admit it, just about everybody goes through the same thing.  I am sure it must be the same for BJJ.  Don't worry about such things!

You may not know, but arts like Hapkido, Aikido, BJJ, and others, are generally considered grappling arts.  In the Hapkido I studied, we didn't learn ground techniques until after 1st degree black belt.  BJJ on the other hand either starts out learning takedowns and escapes, or gets to it quickly.  I can't say much about BJJ for sure since I have never studied it.

BTW, I don't know where you are, but many colleges and universities in the US will have a martial art class as part of their curriculum for a gym requirement, for at least 1 semester/quarter, or as an elective..  You might look into that. 

Good luck with your search for a solution.  Don't be afraid to come back and ask more questions.  There are people who always wish to help.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 11, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> no, I don't want to get anyone involved. It didn't go very far and a lot of people wouldn't have even taken it the way I did. I just want to be able to stand up a bit more for myself in the future.



Just as kind of an aside, don't be too quick to think that way.  Your "friend" hasn't learned anything that way if you don't at least tell him   He may think that type of action is an OK joke, or worse, a way to further a relationship.  Something as simple as firmly telling him, alone, or better yet, with a trusted friend, male or female.  If he learns something positive for his relationships, good for him.  Regardless, it might begin to give you a little more feeling of being in charge of your life.  As Jenna pointed out, that is important as well.

Has this person said anything since then, or made any other attempts at verbal or physical interaction?


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I can agree with that. There's less difference - *especially in the long run* - between a sport-oriented BJJ school, for instance, and one that maintains more of a SD orientation.



I bolded the important part in that statement. In the *long* run, a BJJ practitioner should be able to fight effectively regardless of whether he/she trains in a sport or street oriented school. In the *short* term, a student at an exclusively sport oriented school will likely be at a disadvantage in a street assault situation because they won't have spent the time training against the sort of attacks their assailant will likely use and they won't yet have the fundamental body skills to adapt on the fly to an unfamiliar context.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 11, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> The thing is I feel weird since I don't know if I'm overreacting since I wouldn't consider it assault for someone to push you down and hold you there for a few seconds but I just got creeped out since I really tried to get him off and I don't know if I could have if he wasn't "just joking".


You aren't overreacting. That is assault in both the moral and legal sense.


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## Paul_D (Oct 11, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Then you go back and rewatch the video. And I'm not just speaking out of my *** here.


Yes you are.  I have been grabbed from behind without warning and the first I knew what the hell was going on, I was already on the ground.  You can practice techqniues all you want, but if your awarness is lacking you won't have time to pull anything off.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 11, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> aww thank you  it seems a bit extreme to start a martial art based on one incident. I guess I was just looking for a "magic trick" to avoid situations like this in the future. I'm okay I just don't like feeling weak and defenseless and this made me think of things differently.


The way I often explain it is this. Imagine that there really was some simple trick that you could learn and retain without any significant investment of time and effort which would enable you to physically overcome bigger, stronger opponents. Who do you think would be the first people to pick up said trick? If you answered "bullies, thugs, and muggers", give yourself a prize.

In just a hour or so, I can show you all the techniques you will ever need to defend yourself from the vast majority of physical attacks you are likely to ever encounter. Give me a few more hours and I can spend some time explaining some of the fine details and get you to the point where you can walk through some of the simpler moves.

That by itself is pretty much worthless.

What serious martial arts training does is help transform you into the sort of person who can actually use those techniques when the chips are down. It does that by developing attributes such as mental toughness, physical and emotional balance, awareness and control of your own body, sensitivity, tactical awareness, reflex speed, and more, as well as learning the physical movements to the point where they are a physical language that you can speak and comprehend, not just memorize. There's a reasonable argument to be made that the time and energy invested is out of proportion to the likelihood an average person has of actually being assaulted. Fortunately, as Tez noted above, there are a lot more benefits from the training process.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 11, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Yes you are.  I have been grabbed from behind without warning and the first I knew what the hell was going on, I was already on the ground.  You can practice techqniues all you want, but if your awarness is lacking you won't have time to pull anything off.


That depends what they do once they grab. The first time I used my MA in self-defense, a guy grabbed me from behind with a sloppy rear naked choke. He didn't take me down, so I took him down. It was what I'd call now a Shoulder Throw, but I learned it in Judo and forget what it was called there. I was kind of surprised it didn't hurt him, but that's probably because I was a bit off-balance when I threw him (very early in my training, so not good at fundamentals yet) and fell down during the throw. I think my fall absorbed some of his fall.


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## Paul_D (Oct 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That depends what they do once they grab. The first time I used my MA in self-defense, a guy grabbed me from behind with a sloppy rear naked choke.


Well of course if your attacker is incompetent then yes, you are in with a chance.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 11, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Well of course if your attacker is incompetent then yes, you are in with a chance.


Agreed. That's one of the points I make in discussions about training for self-defense. There are actually plenty of incompetent attackers, and some of their ill-conceived attacks give brand new openings or flat-out change which techniques are useful.


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## somehumanperson (Oct 11, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Just as kind of an aside, don't be too quick to think that way.  Your "friend" hasn't learned anything that way if you don't at least tell him   He may think that type of action is an OK joke, or worse, a way to further a relationship.  Something as simple as firmly telling him, alone, or better yet, with a trusted friend, male or female.  If he learns something positive for his relationships, good for him.  Regardless, it might begin to give you a little more feeling of being in charge of your life.  As Jenna pointed out, that is important as well.
> 
> Has this person said anything since then, or made any other attempts at verbal or physical interaction?



I have seen him briefly a few times and he has acted completely normal like nothing has happened. I am not very close friends with him but he's a friend of a friend and I just feel awkward getting people involved in this. I got pretty pissed at him that night after it happened and I think he understood that it wasn't funny. I'm just going to keep my eyes open a bit and hope he learned something and won't do it to anyone else again.

Thank you everyone for your replies, I am looking at some self-defense classes in my local area for this fall!


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 12, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I have seen him briefly a few times and he has acted completely normal like nothing has happened. I am not very close friends with him but he's a friend of a friend and I just feel awkward getting people involved in this. I got pretty pissed at him that night after it happened and I think he understood that it wasn't funny. I'm just going to keep my eyes open a bit and hope he learned something and won't do it to anyone else again.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your replies, I am looking at some self-defense classes in my local area for this fall!



Do be careful around him.  Hopefully he will never again do that to you or any other person.  I agree completely with your looking around for self defense classes.  Don't be afraid to look at taking up a martial art as well.  But always remember to do things that keep you safe.  Keep us informed if you don't mind.  Also never be worried about coming in here and asking for help or advice.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 12, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I am a college girl and recently got into a situation (it didn't go very far but it kind of freaked me out) and I realized I have no upper body strength to force someone off me. I always assumed if it came to it I would be able to get out of a situation if I really wanted to (dumb I know).
> 
> Is there a move or trick for someone with a slight build to get out of this kind of situation and force someone off?
> 
> Thanks if you take the time to respond!


 

I did not have time to read all the replies. However, there are many vulnerable areas you can reach when someone is that close: eyes, ears, nose, the hollow of the throat, or even reaching your hand down to squeeze the family jewels (although you would then need to keep your other hand up in case he tried to punch to get you off him).

Having said that, no amount of replies on here can replace training with an experienced teacher.


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## Langenschwert (Oct 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Didn't you say that you mastered these techniques by watching  video?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got rag-dolled in light randori by someone likely 80 lbs lighter than me with that very throw last week. Was as hard as I've ever been thrown in my life. I'm pretty sure that had we been going all-out, he would have still landed it, albeit not as prettily.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2016)

somehumanperson said:


> I have seen him briefly a few times and he has acted completely normal like nothing has happened. I am not very close friends with him but he's a friend of a friend and I just feel awkward getting people involved in this. I got pretty pissed at him that night after it happened and I think he understood that it wasn't funny. I'm just going to keep my eyes open a bit and hope he learned something and won't do it to anyone else again.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your replies, I am looking at some self-defense classes in my local area for this fall!



Some motivation.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I did not have time to read all the replies. However, there are many vulnerable areas you can reach when someone is that close: eyes, ears, nose, the hollow of the throat, or even reaching your hand down to squeeze the family jewels (although you would then need to keep your other hand up in case he tried to punch to get you off him).



Really? That's mansplaining, we do know there are various places we can attack if necessary however the attackers also know this and will go to some lengths to safeguard themselves usually by making sure the person they intend to abuse cannot move their arms or their legs, they pin them down. As I assume you aren't female you haven't the foggiest idea what it's like to be pinned down by a man heavier and stronger than you *who intends to have sex with you whether you agree or not.* Many men get pinned down in martial arts but none with that intent and in that way, it makes it very difficult to fight back but women do try you know and don't need to be told there are 'targets' they can attack.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Really? That's mansplaining, we do know there are various places we can attack if necessary however the attackers also know this and will go to some lengths to safeguard themselves usually by making sure the person they intend to abuse cannot move their arms or their legs, they pin them down. As I assume you aren't female you haven't the foggiest idea what it's like to be pinned down by a man heavier and stronger than you *who intends to have sex with you whether you agree or not.* Many men get pinned down in martial arts but none with that intent and in that way, it makes it very difficult to fight back but women do try you know and don't need to be told there are 'targets' they can attack.



Was the OP sexually assulted though? Or just got manhandled.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Was the OP sexually assulted though? Or just got manhandled.



'Just'?? There is no 'just', for someone who has been assaulted. Hands on someone who doesn't want hands on is assault. No ifs no buts.

Whinchun100 is doing the standard thing of not understanding what position a girl (non martial arts trained) can find herself in and thinks it's easy to list 'targets' she can go for easily. For him I'll explain. The girl can be on her back with the man ( stronger and heavier) laying between her legs, laying heavily on her hips, his chest on her chest and holding her arms down by the wrists  either above her head or out at the side ( one or two handed) and he's forcibly kissing her. So, what does she grab from the list wingchun100 provided? How does she escape using the targets from that list? The girl is struggling, but his weight is tiring her out plus she's terrified. So untrained and panicking what does she do?

The other question of course is trained, what does she do? ( assume she hasn't not got into that position to start with which is likely to be the case with BJJ she'd stop it before it got that far but humour me in this)


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> 'Just'?? There is no 'just', for someone who has been assaulted. Hands on someone who doesn't want hands on is assault. No ifs no buts.
> 
> Whinchun100 is doing the standard thing of not understanding what position a girl (non martial arts trained) can find herself in and thinks it's easy to list 'targets' she can go for easily. For him I'll explain. The girl can be on her back with the man ( stronger and heavier) laying between her legs, laying heavily on her hips, his chest on her chest and holding her arms down by the wrists  either above her head or out at the side ( one or two handed) and he's forcibly kissing her. So, what does she grab from the list wingchun100 provided? How does she escape using the targets from that list? The girl is struggling, but his weight is tiring her out plus she's terrified. So untrained and panicking what does she do?
> 
> The other question of course is trained, what does she do? ( assume she hasn't not got into that position to start with which is likely to be the case with BJJ she'd stop it before it got that far but humour me in this)



I agrre with the list of targets. Learn to escape and stand up and any targets you find along the way is a bonus.

edit. I will change this a bit.

Here are some positional get ups.





Wrestling that scores point to stand bak up. Folk wrestling is one has a whole arsenal of self defence stuff.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2016)

drop bear said:


> . Learn to escape and stand up and any targets you find along the way is a bonus.



That's why we all said you have to be taught by an instructor not learn from a video but from an untrained point of view, being pinned down as I showed so you cannot move those targets are useless. Just telling someone there's those targets isn't going to help at all, most of us already know where it's likely to an effective place to strike. In a sexual assault when you are being held down by a stronger, heavier man, with arms, hips and body being held down how does the untrained lighter weaker, girl escape.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 19, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> That's why we all said you have to be taught by an instructor not learn from a video but from an untrained point of view, being pinned down as I showed so you cannot move those targets are useless. Just telling someone there's those targets isn't going to help at all, most of us already know where it's likely to an effective place to strike. In a sexual assault when you are being held down by a stronger, heavier man, with arms, hips and body being held down how does the untrained lighter weaker, girl escape.



Quite so.  We all know escapes and counter attacks that can be used, but we are trained.  Even so, we might succumb to panic.  What about an untrained person?


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> That's why we all said you have to be taught by an instructor not learn from a video but from an untrained point of view, being pinned down as I showed so you cannot move those targets are useless. Just telling someone there's those targets isn't going to help at all, most of us already know where it's likely to an effective place to strike. In a sexual assault when you are being held down by a stronger, heavier man, with arms, hips and body being held down how does the untrained lighter weaker, girl escape.



Same way everybody else does. you get better at getting up than they do at holding you down.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Same way everybody else does. you get better at getting up than they do at holding you down.



Nope, that doesn't do it for someone who doesn't know martial arts.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 20, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Same way everybody else does. you get better at getting up than they do at holding you down.



That is true.  But a little too simplistic.  How many times would a woman need to be assaulted before learning how to get better at getting up?  Remember the OP was looking for the magic bullet, which we all pretty much agree isn't there.

Training and practice are what we usually say is needed.  Not only on the technique(s), but how to overcome panic, or, believe it or not, accommodate to just surviving. (Edited to add surviving).


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## wingchun100 (Oct 22, 2016)

She didn't say what to do if she was pinned down. If she had followed my reply with "what if I am pinned," then I could have said things to that too.

Mansplaining. Please. Not everything has to be a feminist rant from you. And the statement that you think you have to "explain" it to me is condescending. I gave a list with the honest intent of offering helpful suggestions. The only one who read the "typical male" thing into it was you.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 22, 2016)

Thank you though. You quickly reminded me why I am glad MT saw fit to install an ignore button. And no, I am not ignoring you because I am a wimp and you argued me into a corner. I'm ignoring you because you are condescending and judgmental, and honestly just plain rude.


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## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> She didn't say what to do if she was pinned down. If she had followed my reply with "what if I am pinned," then I could have said things to that too.
> 
> Mansplaining. Please. Not everything has to be a feminist rant from you. And the statement that you think you have to "explain" it to me is condescending. I gave a list with the honest intent of offering helpful suggestions. The only one who read the "typical male" thing into it was you.



Is this the kind of stuff you recommend WC?






Cause that's the kind of stuff being taught by quite a few TMAs.

And yeah, it's all bad.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Is this the kind of stuff you recommend WC?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah I guess only what your style teaches is what would work. [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Yeah I guess only what your style teaches is what would work. [emoji4]



My style definitely teaches what works. However, it isn't the only style that can.

However, what is shown in that Wing Chun video doesn't work, and actually has a very good chance of getting you seriously hurt. That arm bar "escape" is especially dangerous.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> My style definitely teaches what works. However, it isn't the only style that can.
> 
> However, what is shown in that Wing Chun video doesn't work, and actually has a very good chance of getting you seriously hurt. That arm bar "escape" is especially dangerous.



It is an example of methodology. The guy attacks and then doesn't move. Because of that the coach there can do any old thing and all his technical mistakes are forgiven. He does not get good feedback. Which is kind of the reason you have a partner in the first place.

Honest resisted training pretty much breaks that cycle from the get go. And the instructor would only loose his arm once to realise

 A. why you go the other way out of that arm bar.

B. why you avoid that move at all if you have old man shoulders.

 I think it is less about style there and more about a trend to be avoided.

So the arm bar escape done more right. Just in case anybody wanted to know.





And factoring in that your partner is not just going to lay there like a chump.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 24, 2016)

@drop bear For the first time, it seems like we are kind of sort of thinking along the same lines. 

That is all I dropped in to say.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Is this the kind of stuff you recommend WC?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not all bad, at least the parts I watched. It wouldn't work against someone skilled at those attacks they're simulating, but looks like it would be effective against someone who thinks they know how to do those things (or someone who sorta knows how or is just being sloppy). The counters he's demonstrating appear to be (hard to tell without hearing his explanations) designed to take advantage of some pretty elementary mistakes. The roll-out from the arm bar is a good example. I've had people make that sort of mistake. Someone with a solid BJJ background wouldn't leave that opening, but it does happen with ill-trained people. Maybe possible with a fairly new BJJ practitioner who is intoxicated, too.

I think it's really likely poorly-executed versions of those attacks will show up more often, as a result of people watching a lot of MMA and trying to figure out how to do stuff off YouTube.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It is an example of methodology. The guy attacks and then doesn't move. Because of that the coach there can do any old thing and all his technical mistakes are forgiven. He does not get good feedback. Which is kind of the reason you have a partner in the first place.
> 
> Honest resisted training pretty much breaks that cycle from the get go. And the instructor would only loose his arm once to realise
> 
> ...


Well, the partner just sitting there is pretty much necessary if you're going to demonstrate any move and be able to stop and talk about it along the way. We can't assume that's the only way they train these things, just because that's how he works when he demonstrates it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Not all bad, at least the parts I watched. It wouldn't work against someone skilled at those attacks they're simulating, but looks like it would be effective against someone who thinks they know how to do those things (or someone who sorta knows how or is just being sloppy). The counters he's demonstrating appear to be (hard to tell without hearing his explanations) designed to take advantage of some pretty elementary mistakes. The roll-out from the arm bar is a good example. I've had people make that sort of mistake. Someone with a solid BJJ background wouldn't leave that opening, but it does happen with ill-trained people. Maybe possible with a fairly new BJJ practitioner who is intoxicated, too.
> 
> I think it's really likely poorly-executed versions of those attacks will show up more often, as a result of people watching a lot of MMA and trying to figure out how to do stuff off YouTube.



I disagree. The overall technique was poor, and many of those counters simply wouldn't work if the person on top is larger than the person on the bottom.

That silliness with him grabbing his opponent's wrist and stopping punches is complete nonsense. The idea that someone on top of you is going to simply stop at your hips and not attempt to advance in order to pound your face in is also nonsense. If it was easy to control an advancing opponent on top by simply lifting your knees up, closed guard wouldn't be be necessary.

We also shouldn't excuse sloppy technique and bad instruction by saying that "maybe" they'll work on an untrained opponent. What if your opponent isn't untrained? What if those techniques don't work because they're based on half baked principles and you trained them with a compliant partner?

That armbar escape is especially dangerous because it initiates after the arm is being hyper extended. You should be initiating the escape before you reach that point as shown in Drop Bear's vid.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I disagree. The overall technique was poor, and many of those counters simply wouldn't work if the person on top is larger than the person on the bottom.
> 
> That silliness with him grabbing his opponent's wrist and stopping punches is complete nonsense. The idea that someone on top of you is going to simply stop at your hips and not attempt to advance in order to pound your face in is also nonsense. If it was easy to control an advancing opponent on top by simply lifting your knees up, closed guard wouldn't be be necessary.
> 
> ...


My point was that each of those counters can actually be useful in the context of a specific mistake. I can't tell if that's what he was talking about there (perhaps responding to a specific scenario), or if he didn't understand that a mistake would be necessary for each of those to work. For instance, with the arm bar escape, if the person trying to apply the arm bar doesn't lock down the base, there's no hyper-extension, which can leave that opening. If he thinks that's a valid escape to a proper application of the technique, he's wrong. If he's teaching that you can escape that way from a bad arm bar, maybe he isn't. I say 'maybe' because I'd have to experiment with that movement to see how much of an opening you'd need for it to be safe. In my mind, I'm picturing a couple of fundamental errors that could make that safely available, but I might be mis-imagining the torque point you'd run into by going that way.


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Well, the partner just sitting there is pretty much necessary if you're going to demonstrate any move and be able to stop and talk about it along the way. We can't assume that's the only way they train these things, just because that's how he works when he demonstrates it.



We can for two reasons.

If the partner ever hung on to that arm bar then old mate would never got to the point where he thought that was an actual defence.  Plus the other less obvious tragic performances.

And just because you dont see a guy training in a terrible manner on you tube does not mean he doesn't train that way. So we can assume he trains any way that fits our agenda.


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> My point was that each of those counters can actually be useful in the context of a specific mistake. I can't tell if that's what he was talking about there (perhaps responding to a specific scenario), or if he didn't understand that a mistake would be necessary for each of those to work. For instance, with the arm bar escape, if the person trying to apply the arm bar doesn't lock down the base, there's no hyper-extension, which can leave that opening. If he thinks that's a valid escape to a proper application of the technique, he's wrong. If he's teaching that you can escape that way from a bad arm bar, maybe he isn't. I say 'maybe' because I'd have to experiment with that movement to see how much of an opening you'd need for it to be safe. In my mind, I'm picturing a couple of fundamental errors that could make that safely available, but I might be mis-imagining the torque point you'd run into by going that way.



No. 

Just no. 

That is outright grasping for a silk purse out of a pigs ear. 

If someone does the worlds worst arm bar.  The correct technical escapes still work.  Having a messed up escape trained in to your arsenal to counter a messed up arm bar is physically worse than just screwing up.  Because at least someone can fix your screw ups.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> We can for two reasons.
> 
> If the partner ever hung on to that arm bar then old mate would never got to the point where he thought that was an actual defence.  Plus the other less obvious tragic performances.
> 
> And just because you dont see a guy training in a terrible manner on you tube does not mean he doesn't train that way. So we can assume he trains any way that fits our agenda.


I never assumed he doesn't train that way. And, sure, you can argue from an assumption (by saying, "assuming he trains that way..."), which is a reasonable way to make a point. It's not reasonable, however, to simply assume he trains that way because of a demonstration.

I do agree that the person assisting in the demo could put more appropriate tension in most of those pause points. Most students aren't very good at that, though. They relax too much when they pause. I often have to stop while demonstrating a technique and coach the student on what the tension should be at that point, rather than just working with a flaccid arm, as if my attacker fell asleep mid-attack.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> No.
> 
> Just no.
> 
> ...


That's a reasonable argument.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It wouldn't work against someone skilled at those attacks they're simulating, but looks like it would be effective against someone who thinks they know how to do those things (or someone who sorta knows how or is just being sloppy). The counters he's demonstrating appear to be (hard to tell without hearing his explanations) designed to take advantage of some pretty elementary mistakes. The roll-out from the arm bar is a good example. I've had people make that sort of mistake. Someone with a solid BJJ background wouldn't leave that opening, but it does happen with ill-trained people. Maybe possible with a fairly new BJJ practitioner who is intoxicated, too.
> 
> I think it's really likely poorly-executed versions of those attacks will show up more often, as a result of people watching a lot of MMA and trying to figure out how to do stuff off YouTube.


It does make sense to train defenses against the untrained version of common street attacks (haymaker, headlock, tackle, etc) because

those techniques are extremely common in real world violence
even the untrained versions can be dangerous if you're not used to them
the defenses against those attacks are easier to learn than the defenses against their trained equivalents, but they make a good starting point for learning the principles which will apply against the more sophisticated versions
In contrast, an untrained armbar is both less common and less dangerous. Bozos who think they know Jiu-Jitsu because they watch the UFC aren't really much of a threat. If you're going to bother learning an armbar defense at all, it makes more sense to learn a real defense against the real technique.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I did not have time to read all the replies. However, there are many vulnerable areas you can reach when someone is that close: eyes, ears, nose, the hollow of the throat, or even reaching your hand down to squeeze the family jewels (although you would then need to keep your other hand up in case he tried to punch to get you off him).
> 
> Having said that, no amount of replies on here can replace training with an experienced teacher.





Tez3 said:


> Really? That's mansplaining, we do know there are various places we can attack if necessary however the attackers also know this and will go to some lengths to safeguard themselves usually by making sure the person they intend to abuse cannot move their arms or their legs, they pin them down. As I assume you aren't female you haven't the foggiest idea what it's like to be pinned down by a man heavier and stronger than you *who intends to have sex with you whether you agree or not.* Many men get pinned down in martial arts but none with that intent and in that way, it makes it very difficult to fight back but women do try you know and don't need to be told there are 'targets' they can attack.



I'd say it's less mansplaining and more "never-grappled-and-doesn't-know-how-it-works-splaining". I've had guys explain the same kind of ideas to me and my avatar pic makes it pretty clear that I'm not female, so I think it's less about gender and more about not knowing how things work on the ground.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd say it's less mansplaining and more "never-grappled-and-doesn't-know-how-it-works-splaining". I've had guys explain the same kind of ideas to me and my avatar pic makes it pretty clear that I'm not female, so I think it's less about gender and more about not knowing how things work on the ground.


I agree with this. I've even been taught some of those things, and I can see where they could actually come up when some knucklehead knocks you down and you have to work from there, but not if said knucklehead has some reasonable training.

The issue is that folks who haven't done any significant groundwork look at those "fixes" and think, "These wouldn't be legal in contests, so they won't be guarding against them. However, most of those (eyepokes, groin strikes, etc.) require the same access that a valid competition technique would require, and the ground-grappler is trained to avoid those. Thus, by accident, he is automatically guarding against those non-competition techniques. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but they are far fewer than an offhand examination would imply.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 25, 2016)

First of all, I HAVE grappled. Second, I have enough knowledge to know what does and does not work on the ground even if I don't grapple on a regular basis. My suggestions were more about what to do to prevent things before it even gets to the ground. The best way to handle being on the ground is to not get there. Some people ask, "How would WC defend against an arm bar?" And I say, "Don't let the guy get you in one!" Because once it is locked in, then it's a very tough spot.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I agree with this. I've even been taught some of those things, and I can see where they could actually come up when some knucklehead knocks you down and you have to work from there, but not if said knucklehead has some reasonable training.
> 
> The issue is that folks who haven't done any significant groundwork look at those "fixes" and think, "These wouldn't be legal in contests, so they won't be guarding against them. However, most of those (eyepokes, groin strikes, etc.) require the same access that a valid competition technique would require, and the ground-grappler is trained to avoid those. Thus, by accident, he is automatically guarding against those non-competition techniques. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but they are far fewer than an offhand examination would imply.


 
Most kuckleheads don't have training though. How many people out there do you think have taken martial arts classes for longer than, say, a month? And out of those, how many are dedicated enough to be any good?

Regardless, I am glad that at least some people around here have brains in their heads and don't see this as man/woman issues...when there aren't any.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Most kuckleheads don't have training though. How many people out there do you think have taken martial arts classes for longer than, say, a month? And out of those, how many are dedicated enough to be any good?



That's a very dangerous mind set to have. There are hundreds of thousands of young men in the US who practice wrestling in high school. That is martial arts training, and if you're on a wrestling team you're going to be good at it. There are even boxing programs in many US high schools where young men learn boxing. I would argue that a man who wrestled or boxed in all four years of high school is more dangerous than someone who earned a black belt in a traditional martial art. When you get to the collegiate level, that gap gets even wider.

Even outside of that, how many young men in the US are practicing American football where they learn how to tackle someone?

Those type of athletes tend to be bigger and stronger than the average male. They tend to be FAR bigger and stronger than the average female, and again there are hundreds of thousands of them out there. Some are well adjusted individuals, and some of them aren't.  A bunch of eye pokes and throat jabs isn't going to stop a trained wrestler from efficiently slamming you on a hard surface, which can knock you out on impact or worse.

You may like to roll the dice with your personal safety, but I don't.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> First of all, I HAVE grappled. Second, I have enough knowledge to know what does and does not work on the ground even if I don't grapple on a regular basis. My suggestions were more about what to do to prevent things before it even gets to the ground. The best way to handle being on the ground is to not get there. Some people ask, "How would WC defend against an arm bar?" And I say, "Don't let the guy get you in one!" Because once it is locked in, then it's a very tough spot.


I agree with this. Excepting the highly trained grapplers (who are an unlikely assailant), most grapplers wouldn't be able to get me to the ground (at least not all the way) to test my ground fighting ability. My primary work makes me harder to take down that I used to be, so that is my first (and best) defense. The ground work I practice isn't so much in case I get attacked by a grappler, but in case I get blind-sided and am on the ground before I know it, or I step on something and fall down. I rarely practice and never teach things like that BJJ arm-bar escape, because that kind of complex move is highly unlikely within the context of an attack. It's similar to my decision not to practice defenses against those KO diving kicks the Kyukoshin (did I even spell that right?) folks do.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Kyukoshin (did I even spell that right?)


Kyokushin


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> My suggestions were more about what to do to prevent things before it even gets to the ground. The best way to handle being on the ground is to not get there.



I don't think that came across in your original post. The original question was about what the OP could do once she was pushed down and pinned on the ground. Your answer never mentioned anything about preventing being pushed down, so it was reasonable to interpret as suggestions for how to escape the pin.



wingchun100 said:


> First of all, I HAVE grappled. Second, I have enough knowledge to know what does and does not work on the ground even if I don't grapple on a regular basis.



What exactly is your grappling background?


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## wingchun100 (Oct 25, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't think that came across in your original post. The original question was about what the OP could do once she was pushed down and pinned on the ground. Your answer never mentioned anything about preventing being pushed down, so it was reasonable to interpret as suggestions for how to escape the pin.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly is your grappling background?


 

Okay, I will concede that my original response was not clear. However, I have a good idea of where you are going with the question about my grappling background. Since I have a feeling no amount of experience will be "good enough," especially to someone whose main focus is grappling, I don't even see the point in answering it.

And on that note, I respectfully bow out of commenting further on this thread...which, I admit, I said I was doing before. What can I say? I let myself get drawn back into it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Kyokushin


Well, okay, if you want to get picky, Tony. I had all the right letters!


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> She didn't say what to do if she was pinned down. If she had followed my reply with "what if I am pinned," then I could have said things to that too.
> 
> Mansplaining. Please. Not everything has to be a feminist rant from you. And the statement that you think you have to "explain" it to me is condescending. I gave a list with the honest intent of offering helpful suggestions. The only one who read the "typical male" thing into it was you.



No, not a 'feminist' rant at all. There is no 'typical male thing, you are imagining something that isn't there. However as you are not a female you will not have experienced forcible and non consensual vaginal penetration and been held down in the position I have described so I described it. You don't know the horror of being pinned down in that way. Rather than be nasty in you comments perhaps you should ask a female about it. Then you can knock off the 'feminist rant' comments because frankly it's tiresome and just plain silly. Have a word with yourself mate.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd say it's less mansplaining and more "never-grappled-and-doesn't-know-how-it-works-splaining". I've had guys explain the same kind of ideas to me and my avatar pic makes it pretty clear that I'm not female, so I think it's less about gender and more about not knowing how things work on the ground



Yeah but that doesn't get the point over when someone is being condescending.

As for it being a man/woman thing that sort of came with the OP, a man assaulting or potentially assaulting a woman so how is it that wingchun100 thinks I brought gender into it? The OP a small, weaker female wanted to know how to take action when a larger male pushes her down with intent to sexually assault her. Now he's taking umbrage because I said he doesn't understand how a woman feels when pinned down in the manner I described. There's a fair few things I don't understand how men feel, it's a fact of life. I'm don't do feminist rants, I would prefer people on here not to know what gender I am in most cases hence the ambiguous username. however every now and again there is a subject I'm closer to because I'm female such as this one. I think what wingchun100 thinks he sees in me is actually are a reflection of himself, his anger, his aggression towards me etc. I don't worry, I have broad shoulders, he can project his anger on me, not good for him though.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 26, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Okay, I will concede that my original response was not clear. However, I have a good idea of where you are going with the question about my grappling background. *Since I have a feeling no amount of experience will be "good enough," especially to someone whose main focus is grappling, I don't even see the point in answering it.*
> 
> And on that note, I respectfully bow out of commenting further on this thread...which, I admit, I said I was doing before. What can I say? I let myself get drawn back into it.



Didn't you think you could have expected that when claiming grappling experience, grapplers on the forums might ask you to defend that?  As to how much experience would be "good enough," that probably needs to be taken in context, rather than dodged in a way that makes it seem even you don't think you have any real experience.

For all any of us know, your school has a early on block of instruction on how to use any of several grappling techniques to get back on your feet when you end up on the ground.  I (nor probably others) would not call you a grappler, but might, if your articulated it well, agree you have enough grappling training to speak to the question of the OP.

Rather, it appears you simply wanted to justify your previous comments, then try to wiggle out of an uncomfortable situation of having to admit you don't have the training or experience you implied.  You seem an intelligent person.  You seem passionate about martial arts. 

You can make a better impression by simply saying what you know and how you feel that will apply to the thrust of a thread.  If I or others agree or disagree, you shouldn't take it personally unless it is plainly so.  I as well as others, can have opinions too. Nor do I, and I don't think others at MT, expect you to be an expert practitioner of all martial arts.  So I don't think you make yourself look better by implying knowledge and experience you cannot justify when questioned about it.

Just my two cents for what it may or may not be worth to you.


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