# Which Sword?



## Jade Tigress (Dec 12, 2007)

I need some feedback. I'm going to post a link. Please look at it and tell me if you could have any one you wanted, which one would it be? I appreciate your help. :asian: 

Swords

**edit**
There are a couple other sword categories, if you'd rather have one from another category, please let me know which one. Thanks again!


----------



## Sukerkin (Dec 12, 2007)

I can't really advise on the Tai-chi style weapons linked there as it's not my area of expertise but I can say that the 'Samurai' swords on offer are junk of the highest order so I don't know if that low quality reflects on their other offerings.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 12, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I can't really advise on the Tai-chi style weapons linked there as it's not my area of expertise but I can say that the 'Samurai' swords on offer are junk of the highest order so I don't know if that low quality reflects on their other offerings.


 
I agree with Sukerkin on this that the Japanese Swords on this site are *absolute junk*!  Take that for what it is worth.


----------



## Zero (Dec 12, 2007)

What do you want the sword for; just as decoration on the mantlepiece or for competition display or for more formal training such as tameshigiri (cutting) and or even a legitimate shinken (proper swords with fully live blade)??

No offense but I assume you are just starting out with swords or sword training and it's hard not knowing what discipline you are in but I agree with the other links so far as to the examples of japanese swords (and I can only assume also for the chinese etc) being junk!! - unfortunately even just for any decorative purposes I would imagine these would be pretty lame.

Paul Chen 'practical' katanas and the like are to my experience relatively good value and of adequate quality for most purposes and also have a good quality finish and detail and the live blades are suitable for tameshigiri.  There are of course higher level swords but if your budget is not in the $1000's then there's no need.

Sorry but my advice can only be on katana as that is what I use and again I recommend checking out the Paul Chen practical series online - there are other Chen swords such as the Kotetsu or Champagne series which are quite beautiful and pracitcal - but if you are entry level be careful as these will definitely take off a finger or limb and serious study should be done first.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2007)

Hey JT, 

I can't really recommend any of these, but it depends on what you want it for.

If you want to use if for practicing forms, any of them will probably work.  Both for Tai Chi, as well as external forms.

But understand that none of these are real weapons.  Some of them actually have a guard and pommel made out of wood, with a thin sheet of brass over the top to make it look like metal.  There is no weight to balance the blade, and no real strength.  It's a stage prop that will probably work for forms, but just understand that.  It's not real.

Most of these have very light blades.  This is due to the Modern Wushu phenomenon, where people need to be lightning-fast for performance and competition sake.  I personally hate these things.  They are made of some superlight metal, and again, are just stage props.  Really, they are toys and I often wonder why adults want to play with toy swords.  I quit doing that when I was about 12.

I personally like to use a real weapon.  It needs to be a real blade, made of good quality steel, and beefy enough to actually be useable.

The hilt needs to have a solid guard and pommel, both for strength and to balance the blade.  In the Chinese Martial Arts world here in the US, it's hard to find this kind of thing.  That's why I've been building my own.

I get blades made by Angus Trim.  He makes Western European style swords and I rebuild the hilt to be more appropriate for Chinese martial arts.  Angus uses 5160 spring steel, the same stuff used to make leaf springs for trucks.  It's a good, tough, durable steel that can take some punishment and hold an edge.  

His stuff isn't cheap, costing up to several hundred dollars depending on the model.  And again, it's a European hilt which doesn't work so well for Chinese martial arts.  I've tried, and a cross guard just kind of gets in the way.

If you want, i'd be happy to discuss the possibility of making something for you, but it's a project that will take a bit of time.  Go into the User Galleries, I think on Page 2 I have a gallery with pictures of some of my work.  It won't be cheap, but it will be a real weapon that you could actually walk onto a battlefield with, and it will be about 10,000% better than any of these in the link you posted.  But if all you want is something inexpensive to practice forms with, any of those will do.  Just understand that they are not real weapons.

I can give you links to look at Angus Trim's work, but I'll have to do that this evening as I don't have them on my computer here at work.  But if you do a google search for angus trim swords, you will probably find him.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 12, 2007)

As it has already been said, it depends on what you want it for.

If just practicing a form you can always go with the wooden version it is cheaper

If you want something for training form that is a little more realistic you want Combat Steel which on that page is $85.99
If you are looking to go out and go to war with one you want none that you have listed. 

There are a few very good people out there making high quality Chinese swords but only a few and they are considerably more expensive. There is one guy down south somewhere that makes them out of Damascus steel and there is also a guy from China that I believe makes them as well somewhere around WashingtonDC. 

If you like I will get there names and post them. 

And just as a note to all that posted and all that will. 

The Jain, which is what the link is to, is for more than just Taiji. Even though they are called taiji swords there are a lot of CMA styles that use it. It is considered a higher level weapon than the Dao. Basically it took a lot more skill to use and not break it in a fight.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 12, 2007)

Sorry I had to do a separate post on this; due to network issues on my end, not MT, I cannot edit anything I can only post. 

One thing to take into account when buying a Chinese Sword for training that I have not seen as much of a need for consideration in training a Japanese sword. DO you want a sharp sword? Japanese Swords tend to be very sharp but from what I can tell early training does not include swinging the sword around your head and in very close proximity to your body like some Chinese styles do. I have a real Dao but it is not sharp and in my training over the years I have cut copper pipes with it by accident, taken a chuck out of a concrete floor more than once, cut a linoleum floor or two and given myself multiple bruises that would have been considerably more serious if it had been sharp.


----------



## Tames D (Dec 12, 2007)

I would have to agree with the comments given.


----------



## Blindside (Dec 12, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Hey JT,
> I can give you links to look at Angus Trim's work, but I'll have to do that this evening as I don't have them on my computer here at work. But if you do a google search for angus trim swords, you will probably find him.


 
http://www.angustrimdirect.com/

His line up has changed significantly in the last year or so, and he has developed a non-historical jian.


----------



## Sukerkin (Dec 12, 2007)

Some very good and detailed advice above, *Xue* especially speaking with that valuable voice of experience in the related arts :rei:.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2007)

Blindside said:


> http://www.angustrimdirect.com/
> 
> His line up has changed significantly in the last year or so, and he has developed a non-historical jian.


 
ah, it says the images of the Jian are coming in the future.  I didn't know he was developing these, it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.

I will say one thing, it makes a big difference if the maker of a sword actually practices the art of that sword.  I've seen swords made by people who have no training with the weapon, and they have been pretty dismal.  That is, both "pretty", and "dismal."  Some very attractive, and completely unuseable pieces.  Having training in the art gives you perspective on what qualities make for a useable weapon.  Angus makes some great european swords, and I assume he knows how to use them.  If he doesn't have training in the Chinese arts (which he may have, I honestly don't know) he may not design it as well as it could be.  

I'm looking forward to seeing what he has made.


----------



## Blindside (Dec 12, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> ah, it says the images of the Jian are coming in the future. I didn't know he was developing these, it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
> .....
> Angus makes some great european swords, and I assume he knows how to use them. If he doesn't have training in the Chinese arts (which he may have, I honestly don't know) he may not design it as well as it could be.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing what he has made.


 
Did you see the Tac 32" gim on the same page?

I think most of his sword background is from tai chi, or at least he has referenced handling characteristics of different swords against the jian.

Edit: I did a quick google, see this review of a tai chi swordsmanship seminar, but yes, its safe to say, he has a background in Tai Chi. 
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/booksvideos/chineseswordsmanship/?page=seminars


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Did you see the Tac 32" gim on the same page?
> 
> I think most of his sword background is from tai chi, or at least he has referenced handling characteristics of different swords against the jian.
> 
> ...


 

I missed that pic, I was looking at the TAC Jian, image forthcoming.

I gotta say, he makes good blades, but I don't like the idea of the slimmed down gim like this.  The guard needs to have a bit of "blockiness" to it, it's actually fairly essential in handling the weapon.  It looks like the guard is just a continuous part of the blade itself, making it flat with the blade.

In using the gim/jian, we often hold the sword in a reverse grip, and a somewhat blocky guard is important for getting a good grip on the weapon.  

Some of the cutting techs include precision stabs and cuts, and bracing the forefinger behind the guard is also important.  I'm not sure how comfortable a flat guard would be for this.  And a flat pommel doesn't give much weight for counterbalancing the blade.  The pommel should also be hefty enough to use as a bludgeon in close quarters, as I am sure he knows.  

I guess I gotta say, I'm not a fan of these Tactical models he has made.  Even in the European designs, I much prefer the traditional pieces with full hilts.

check out this website:  http://www.atrimasa.com/Products.html

These guys customize Angus Trim swords with their own hilts and scabbards in wood and leather.  It's all European style, but I think they do some very nice work.  Of course it's hard to tell for sure until you actually get to hold one in your hands, but from the photos, they look very good.


----------



## Blindside (Dec 12, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> check out this website: http://www.atrimasa.com/Products.html
> 
> These guys customize Angus Trim swords with their own hilts and scabbards in wood and leather. It's all European style, but I think they do some very nice work. Of course it's hard to tell for sure until you actually get to hold one in your hands, but from the photos, they look very good.


 
At one point I owned three Atrims, but I'm down to one, a bastard sword with the fittings were done by Christian Fletcher.  Take a peek at his website for some tricked out Atrims.  

http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fletcher/Hilt_Customizations.html


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2007)

Blindside said:


> At one point I owned three Atrims, but I'm down to one, a bastard sword with the fittings were done by Christian Fletcher. Take a peek at his website for some tricked out Atrims.
> 
> http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fletcher/Hilt_Customizations.html


 
yup, i've seen his stuff too, very nice.

What made you decide to get rid of the other two?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 12, 2007)

Not one of the ones I was talking about in my previous post but this will give you some idea of cost on better Chinese Swords

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/huanuo/


----------



## Steel Tiger (Dec 12, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> As it has already been said, it depends on what you want it for.
> 
> If just practicing a form you can always go with the wooden version it is cheaper
> 
> ...


 
Just to add to what Xue had to say.  The specifics of the weapon need to suit you.  Traditionally the length of jian suited to a person was about the length of an arm plus the length of the hand.  This means from person to person the same style of sword is going to vary quite a lot.  On the page of swords there was no information about the lengths which makes it difficult to have any idea which would be more suitable.

I have to say, I just use a wooden one for training.  That way I don't cut myself or destroy furnishings (which I have done with a staff, poor lights).


----------



## Jade Tigress (Dec 12, 2007)

Thank you everyone for your honest opinions. I really appreciate that about my friends on MT. 

I'm not looking for myself, or someone else for that matter. As far as "the real deal", I do have an excellent source. Anthony DiCristofano is my former brother-in-law, and while I don't see him often anymore, we remain on good terms. My question revolves around an ebay experiment.

Sorry I wasn't more clear in my OP. I posted before work in the morning when not only is my time limited, but I'm still working on sufficient supplies of caffeine. lol! 

As far as the jows and herbs on the site, I've used them and they are superior in quality. The swords however, look like all the other swords on ebay. 

Thanks again everyone. :asian:


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2007)

They probably are the same swords.  I see these all over the place, they are pretty common, like dirt.  These are the standard imported crap that comes in from China.


----------



## Blindside (Dec 12, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> yup, i've seen his stuff too, very nice.
> 
> What made you decide to get rid of the other two?


 
I was getting out of sword collecting and was looking to thin my collection.  The only European stuff I have left is that bastard sword and an Albion viking, they both feel way too good in the hand to get rid of.   All the other sharp and pointy stuff is Filipino now.  

Lamont


----------



## Langenschwert (Dec 13, 2007)

Blindside said:


> fittings were done by Christian Fletcher.


 
Christian Fletcher is an excellent craftsman.  I can personally vouch for him as he made the scabbards for my two Albion longswords, which are on his site as well.  

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 13, 2007)

Blindside said:


> I was getting out of sword collecting and was looking to thin my collection. The only European stuff I have left is that bastard sword and an Albion viking, they both feel way too good in the hand to get rid of.  All the other sharp and pointy stuff is Filipino now.
> 
> Lamont


 
Gotcha.  It's funny, but it's easy to start feeling like you can never have too many swords...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 13, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Gotcha. It's funny, but it's easy to start feeling like you can never have too many swords...


 
By this are you suggesting that it is possible to actually feel that you DO have too many swords?

If so BLASPHEMER:enguard:

If not never mind&#8230;:yinyang:


----------



## Blindside (Dec 13, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Gotcha. It's funny, but it's easy to start feeling like you can never have too many swords...


 
Yeah, but the thinning was also funding a "things that go bang" collection, in which you get that exact same feeling.

Lamont


----------



## Blindside (Dec 13, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> By this are you suggesting that it is possible to actually feel that you DO have too many swords?


 
I take it you haven't run out of wall space yet (wall space, mantle space, leaning-in-corner space).


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 13, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> By this are you suggesting that it is possible to actually feel that you DO have too many swords?


 
I suppose some people might think so, but they are clearly mental cases and ought to get psychiatric treatment.

My wife has been thankfully accomodating with my interest in sharp pointy things, which also includes spears and archery equipment.  I picked up a few books on making bows and arrows by hand, the old fashioned way.  Hopefully I'll get some time to try my hand at that before long.  I'm slowly turning my home into a One Stop Midievalist Supply Center...


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 13, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Yeah, but the thinning was also funding a "things that go bang" collection, in which you get that exact same feeling.
> 
> Lamont


 
I understand the sentiment.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 13, 2007)

Blindside said:


> I take it you haven't run out of wall space yet (wall space, mantle space, leaning-in-corner space).


 
Ahh that's easy... buy a bigger house 

Actually I do not really have that many swords all I have is what I use to train, but it is something I have always wanted to collect. 

Found a nice antique Dao in Beijing but I decided not to buy it due to weight and trying to get it on a plane but I have regreted it ever since.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 13, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> I suppose some people might think so, but they are clearly mental cases and ought to get psychiatric treatment.


 
OK, I was worried there for a minute



Flying Crane said:


> My wife has been thankfully accomodating with my interest in sharp pointy things, which also includes spears and archery equipment. I picked up a few books on making bows and arrows by hand, the old fashioned way. Hopefully I'll get some time to try my hand at that before long. I'm slowly turning my home into a One Stop Midievalist Supply Center...


 
My wife has not been what I would call accommodating about my NEED for more swords...  Actually I would say she is the exact opposite of accommodating when it comes to me buying more swords. But on our next trip to Beijing I am going to see what I can find but then that means shipping and that can be a problem with getting things back to the US undamaged.


----------



## Blindside (Dec 13, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> My wife has not been what I would call accommodating about my NEED for more swords... Actually I would say she is the exact opposite of accommodating when it comes to me buying more swords. But on our next trip to Beijing I am going to see what I can find but then that means shipping and that can be a problem with getting things back to the US undamaged.


 
I am lucky enought to have married a woman who likes sharp and pointy things, the second birthday present I bought her was a sword.  Unfortunately she is not nearly as much as a fan of the gun habit... I mean collection.    

Lamont


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 13, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> My wife has not been what I would call accommodating about my NEED for more swords... Actually I would say she is the exact opposite of accommodating when it comes to me buying more swords. But on our next trip to Beijing I am going to see what I can find but then that means shipping and that can be a problem with getting things back to the US undamaged.


 
Well you see, I'll let you in on a little secret: when you are actually MAKING these things, and there is the business element attached where it is understood that you intend to sell them and making a little money from doing so, it works in your favor.  Of course as you develop your skill in making them, you need to have swords to practice your manufacturing techniques and perfect your art.  Maybe some of these will be sold, maybe some will be kept.  Maybe some are for sale, but in the mean time you still have them around...and they start to accumulate, but you still sell some once in a while so you can justify it all...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 13, 2007)

Blindside said:


> I am lucky enought to have married a woman who likes sharp and pointy things, the second birthday present I bought her was a sword. Unfortunately she is not nearly as much as a fan of the gun habit... I mean collection.
> 
> Lamont


 
sharp and pointy things to my wife means acupuncture needles and since she is very well trained in all the points I tend to agree...IF I know whats good for me :uhyeah:



Flying Crane said:


> Well you see, I'll let you in on a little secret: when you are actually MAKING these things, and there is the business element attached where it is understood that you intend to sell them and making a little money from doing so, it works in your favor. Of course as you develop your skill in making them, you need to have swords to practice your manufacturing techniques and perfect your art. Maybe some of these will be sold, maybe some will be kept. Maybe some are for sale, but in the mean time you still have them around...and they start to accumulate, but you still sell some once in a while so you can justify it all...


 
You may have just given me an idea, I need to think about this, thanks


----------



## thardey (Dec 13, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Well you see, I'll let you in on a little secret: when you are actually MAKING these things, and there is the business element attached where it is understood that you intend to sell them and making a little money from doing so, it works in your favor.  Of course as you develop your skill in making them, you need to have swords to practice your manufacturing techniques and perfect your art.  Maybe some of these will be sold, maybe some will be kept.  Maybe some are for sale, but in the mean time you still have them around...and they start to accumulate, but you still sell some once in a while so you can justify it all...




Echo that!

I make swords and other pointy things for gifts. Of course, that also means I need to practice, and try the swords out, and learn new tricks . . . It's easier to justify the 100+ hours in the garage making a horrible din, that to justify the 500+ dollars for a mostly functional sword.

(Of course, the various tools and such for basic bladesmithing are a good range for Christmas presents, too!)

My handles and furnishings still leave a lot of detail work to be had, but the blade tempers and handling have been good, and getting better.

Besides, my wife turned over most of the decorating of the house to me -- so I have a few conversation-pieces hanging on the wall.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 13, 2007)

thardey said:


> Echo that!
> 
> I make swords and other pointy things for gifts. Of course, that also means I need to practice, and try the swords out, and learn new tricks . . . It's easier to justify the 100+ hours in the garage making a horrible din, that to justify the 500+ dollars for a mostly functional sword.
> 
> ...


 

Birds of a feather sir, birds of a feather.


----------



## Grenadier (Dec 13, 2007)

Hmmm, as pointed out, the swords aren't going to be of good quality.  

However, those are some pretty good prices on Dit Dat Jow, as well as Zheng Gu Shui and a few others items.  Looks like I'll be ordering some in January!


----------



## Zero (Dec 19, 2007)

_


thardey said:



			Echo that!
		
Click to expand...

_


thardey said:


> _I make swords and other pointy things for gifts. Of course, that also means I need to practice, and try the swords out, and learn new tricks . . . It's easier to justify the 100+ hours in the garage making a horrible din, that to justify the 500+ dollars for a mostly functional sword._
> 
> I agree fully!!
> There is hardly anything (a few, but not many) more satisfying than making or being involved in making a good sword or blade - be it purely functional or beautiful and decorative.
> ...


----------



## thardey (Dec 19, 2007)

Zero said:


> _
> 
> 
> thardey said:
> ...


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 19, 2007)

thardey said:


> Zero said:
> 
> 
> > The furniture is a whole different story.
> ...


----------



## Zero (Dec 31, 2007)

Thardey and FlyingCrane - thanks very much for that info on your set-up and 'production line' for making the blades.  All the best for the New Year!!


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2007)

Zero said:


> Thardey and FlyingCrane - thanks very much for that info on your set-up and 'production line' for making the blades. All the best for the New Year!!


 
You're welcome, and happy new year.

Yesterday I got to test drive my new toy: a combo belt/disc sander.  I've been doing all the wood work for my grips and scabbards by hand.  this means I saw them out, carve them out (altho I have a router for carving the blade grooves in the scabbard halves, but I still have to do a lot with mallet and chisel for a good fit), and I've been shaping the scabbards by hand using a planer and shaving away.  Yesterday I took a scabbard that I had started, but hadn't shaped yet.  It took me about an hour and fifteen minutes to shape the scabbard, whereas doing it by hand might have taken somewhere between 4-6 hours.  What a difference!

We picked up a table saw a while back and are looking at getting a band saw as well.  This will make cutting out the scabbard blanks a lot faster too.  I've been splitting the blanks by hand, clamping it into my work table and sawing a few inches, then flipping it around and sawing a few more inches, then over and over again.  It usually takes an hour or so to do that, for a scabbard blank that might be 36 inches long or so.  Once I get my band saw, it should take just a couple minutes.

I'm glad I spent the time doing several by hand.  I think I really learned a lot by doing so, but I'm really psyched about speeding up the work with my new tools!


----------

