# How far will PETA go?



## Ceicei (Jan 23, 2005)

First it's animals, now fish.  What next?

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600106702,00.html

   [font=Georgia,Verdana]The Fish Empathy Project stopped in Salt Lake City on Saturday to discourage Utahns from eating fish. Consumers should remember fish are not only "highly intelligent animals," but they are loaded with cancer-causing chemicals, according to the touring program sponsored by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA).

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   Read the rest of the article in the link.

   - Ceicei
[/font]


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## MA-Caver (Jan 23, 2005)

I remember the old saying... "Fish is brain food." Seems to me these folks are proving that they've never eaten fish before, because if they did... they'd be smart enough to realize just how *stupid* their ideas really are. Traditonal fishes (Halibut, Cod, Mackrels, etc. are caught far from any chemical/industrial plants. 
According to Christian beliefs God created man and gave him dominion over all the beasts in the land, birds in the air and fish in the seas. This basically meant we are supposed to eat them as well as care for them and to help nature stay in harmony. 
The only thing I agree with PETA is that how our foods should be better prepared. Cleaner and healthier slaughterhouses and so forth. Of course PETA's (which should mean     *P*eople *E*ating *T*asty *A*nimals  )  don't even eat meat or if they do then they're hypocrites. 
Animals are just animals and they're food for us, pure and simple. 
Don't like it? Don't eat it. Pure and simple. Leave the rest of us 20 oz. T-bone  steak lovers alone!


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## BrandiJo (Jan 23, 2005)

actual according to gen 1:29 I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so. 
he gives us every tree that has fruit and seen and the beasts (animals) birds and other stuff he gives green plant 


but after the flood it became accepable to eat some animals ...only clean kinds (ugh and thats a long one to explain) and now its really not followed cus i dont know why...i try (its a church thing kinda goes with being seventh day adventist) to but sometimes pep. pizza sounds too good


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## MA-Caver (Jan 24, 2005)

Clean animals (at the time) meant no bottom feeding "sea-foods" i.e. lobsters, crabs, shellfish and fish that are... err, bottom feeders. It also included animals that root, live in their own (or others) fecal matter, pigs is the prime example, especially those that were penned up. Thus unclean animals. 
One would think the primary reason for it was because there were no sanitary methods (invented) to ensure a (relatively) germ free slab of bacon or ham. 
The Jewish Torah has it more in depth I think. 
But looking back on it, it does make sense no? 



> From *Pulp Fiction:*
> VINCENT
> Thanks a bunch.
> (to Jules, who's nursing his coffee)
> ...


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## Kempojujutsu (Jan 24, 2005)

PETA has even gone to Fishing Tournaments trying to distrub fishing anglers. Bang on there boats, honking horns, getting in the way, doing any thing to cause trouble. Most fishing tournaments practice catch & release methods. If I caught a PETA I don't think I would release it. :revenge:


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## kenpo tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

People should probably be more focused on the suffering of their fellow humans - children especially - who have little or nothing to eat, no warm place to live, or anyone to care about them. Granted, a counter argument could be made that animals need advocates too. Then do your part and adopt and spay/neuter an animal - give it a good home. Then give your time or a donation to a charity which will benefit other people.

Throwing red paint or animal blood on a person wearing fur is counterproductive.  People think PETA members are 'nuts' and will therefore avoid and villify them despite their so-called good intentions.  Present your case in clear, concise and realistic language and you just might get some sympathetic attention.


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## OUMoose (Jan 24, 2005)

Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> PETA has even gone to Fishing Tournaments trying to distrub fishing anglers. Bang on there boats, honking horns, getting in the way, doing any thing to cause trouble. Most fishing tournaments practice catch & release methods. If I caught a PETA I don't think I would release it. :revenge:


"Catch and release" fishing ranks right up there with "sport" hunting as one of the more senseless things we as humans have come up with to entertain ourselves, IMO.  Sure, you let the fish go.  Go you.  Why did you feel the need to bait the fish in the first place and make it impail itself on a big friggin hook?  How long is that fish gonna live now that it has a nice big hole in it from where you jamed a metal spike through it's flesh and released it back into the water, which we ALL know is clean.    

*rant off*

Sorry.  I don't believe in PETA's actions when it comes to their protest methods as others have mentioned (throwing paint/blood on people, etc).  Then again, when they disrupt an activity that has no apparent constructive use, perhaps it's not such a bad thing.  If you're going to fish, eat what you catch or give it to someone who needs it.  Don't make the animal suffer for your entertainment.


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## Autocrat (Jan 24, 2005)

Hmmm... the extremists are always a problem... ranging from animal rights and anti-testing groups through to civilian armies and terrorists.   You will always encounter that small dark group of humanity that go a few steps beyond the normal actions of others and enter th terrority of violence, anti-social behavior, fear inducement etc.

The problem I have is that I can kind of understand why.  I strongly disagree with harming others, with labeling, hounding, stalking, shooting, blowing things up etc..... yet when you have tried for so long to be heard, treated with respect, or feel so strongly about something and nothing is done... well, you either quit the campaign, or take it in a different direction.

Inmclude egotistical people, or those with ulterior motives, and you end up with those core groups that do the wrong things... but probably for the right reasons! (As far as they are concerned the reasons are good, for others they may not be!)

The problem seems to be drawing the lines between perspectives, aknowledgement, inacting upon problems and producing results that satisfy all involved.

As an example....
You go to your club to train... have done for years...every time you park up, get out, lock up, enter the building, get changed, warm up etc.... you have a solid routine.
All of a sudden, new shops open up locally, and you can't park anymore.  No spaces are left.  So you ask about new parking, or parking permits, or a simple soloution to the problem.  You leave earlier to get a space, and still can'....all the while you are told it is being looked into and will be sorted out to everyones benefit.....1 month, two months, 6 months.... you have resorted to parking 100 meters down the road, and one day you get clamped.... £50 fine...GREAT!   So what do you do?  You have as much right as anyone else!  You have been there for years, yet aren't considered above any of the newer ones...if anything, you are thought less of as you aren't spending £XXX money in the shops!
You then notice these stickers in the new-shoppers cars, permitting them to park during certain times for free!, whilst you have to either park ages away, or pay extortionate amounts for a ticket......

So what would your reactions be?
If you lert it lie, you suffer for no reason!  If you take action, most others will see you as an extremist, though some of your fellow club members may support you - be it openly or covertly!

Now take that scenario and switch the details... you home town is invaded, and the other towns ignore you or won't openly support you.  Or your pet cat is stolen, and you end up seeing someone wearing it.... your prize car, worth a fortune due to it's rarity is damaged or stolen.... the scenario shouldn't matter, the result shoould be the same!

An odd example... yet considers most of the issues that these people have from their perspective.... once you have answers, take the perspective of the new-shoppers, of the local/original shops, of the new shops etc... it's convoluted and there is no real way to make everyone happy!

The key is getting people to talk and to listen... yet things like money, land, bribes, hate and fear get in the way.... talk falls on deaf ears etc.

Shame, but humans suck in general.
Specifically for the PETA.... most of them seem to be of the ulterior motive group... i.e. violence, general disturbance and little in the way of communicating.... more a fact of the method ofr methods sake rather than ends justify the means, of means justify the end!


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## MisterMike (Jan 24, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> Then again, when they disrupt an activity that has no apparent constructive use, perhaps it's not such a bad thing.



It may not be apparent to PETA and others, but going fishing with your kids is a form of family activity, learning about nature, history and tradition, and the booboo on the fishy's lip will go away instead of him ending in the frying pan.

There are also laws against disrupting a legitimate hunt, which these "activists" have no trouble breaking.


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## OUMoose (Jan 24, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> It may not be apparent to PETA and others, but going fishing with your kids is a form of family activity, learning about nature, history and tradition, and the booboo on the fishy's lip will go away instead of him ending in the frying pan.
> 
> There are also laws against disrupting a legitimate hunt, which these "activists" have no trouble breaking.


True, but the example I was quoting was of a Fishing tournament.  Also, it's usually a little more than a booboo.  I've been fishing many times in the past and see hooks go through the fish's eye or completely through the bottom of their mouth.  So, to extrapolate to a larger animal, if someone took a meathook to your cheek, then let you go abouts on your merry way, would that "booboo" just heal?

As far as the law goes, I agree that they're in the wrong with their not-so-peaceful protest activities.


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## 8253 (Jan 25, 2005)

I like steak, not PETA!!!!


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## MA-Caver (Jan 25, 2005)

Autocrat said:
			
		

> Hmmm... the extremists are always a problem... ranging from animal rights and anti-testing groups through to civilian armies and terrorists.   You will always encounter that small dark group of humanity that go a few steps beyond the normal actions of others and enter th terrority of violence, anti-social behavior, fear inducement etc.
> 
> The problem I have is that I can kind of understand why.  I strongly disagree with harming others, with labeling, hounding, stalking, shooting, blowing things up etc..... yet when you have tried for so long to be heard, treated with respect, or feel so strongly about something and nothing is done... well, you either quit the campaign, or take it in a different direction.
> 
> ...



The first man to raise a fist ... is the first one to run out of ideas. ~ H.G. Wells
Hurting people to get attention is what a toddler to an adolescent child does. Extremists are those who go too far in expressing their frustration at not getting their way. 
As far as PETA folk goes, they are fighting their own natural in-based nutritional requirements. We are ominivores, like bears. We eat both MEAT and Veggies. We require BOTH to sustain ourselves and to have a natural balance for our bodies, our lives. Our teeth shows this. Molars for grinding up fiberous foods (veggies) and cainines for tearing meat. 
These people who go too far in saying AWWW poor widdle animals, poor widdle defenseless animals, we're too cruel to them just so we can eat. I find it ludicrous to think that a _fish_ suffers pain in the same manner that we do. Animals do feel pain, a response to damaged nerves. 
They're animals dammit. Nothing more. Not reasoning intelligent beings as we are. They haven't done ANYTHING to make their lives better. They eat, sleep and make little versions of themselves that grow up to eat, sleep and make little versions of themselves. They'll act the way that nature intended for them to act. Be territorial out of instinct and survival. They are not the same as we humans and these idjits need to realize that. Animals don't create art for art's sake, they don't entertain each other. Sit and watch a herd of cows for a couple of weeks, first of all you're gonna see them do the same thing hour after hour, day after day, secondly you're gonna go outta your mind with boredom just watching a big dumb animal stand there and chew on it's own vomit (cud). Nice huh? 
Hurting people that continue to hunt, fish, eat meat and ignore their pleas to stop is just childish and stupid. Don't like it, dont' join us.  

Oh, and I'll have that 20 oz. t-bone steak medium rare. Ah lak a little blood for the flavor, along with the fat .


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 25, 2005)

I realize that eating animals is wrong, but has anyone asked the veggies how they feel?
Maybe we should form a group against the blatent vegetable slavery and consumption?

Or maybe I'll just go have a nice tuna salad.


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## deadhand31 (Jan 25, 2005)

I keep sending a question in to PETA, but they never respond. The question is:

If we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat?


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## Tgace (Jan 25, 2005)

MMMM..lemon chicken in a peta pocket. Oh wait a minute....


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## BrandiJo (Jan 25, 2005)

um humans are made outta meat too...but you wouldnt go around eating people. I see there arugement, the college im going to is an all vegitarian campus, and i can see the heath benifits ...i still stop by burger king every now and then and i still eat some things i pry shouldnt, but there are deffinate valuse in not eating meat, our bodies can and do survive well on eating veggies, grains, and fruits


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## someguy (Jan 25, 2005)

I'm one of the vegitarians.  Yes we are nuts.  I disagree with PETA on this one though.
If a person wants to talk about it I will but if they don't then I'm not about to go out and start forcefully converting people to vegitarianism.  
Bah i cant spel wroth a crud


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## kenpo tiger (Jan 25, 2005)

I don't know that it's necessarily vegetarianism or veganism that PETA is advancing.  There are vegetarians/vegans who will eat meat -- eggs, fish specifically -- as part of their diets but still consider themselves vegetarians/vegans.  The PETAns have a larger agenda and are aggressive in pushing that agenda on others.

I thought vegetarians/vegans were peaceful people.:idunno:


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## Tgace (Jan 25, 2005)

PETA


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## Makalakumu (Jan 26, 2005)

I would consider myself to be pretty liberal, but this is one of the major disagreements that I often have with my political peers.  

*I hunt and I fish and I do it for fun.*

In this country there are very few people who really _need _ the meat they can gather with their own hands.  I don't.  In fact, its much easier to go to the store.  Yet, when I kill, I take the meat home with me anyway.  In a very real sense, this is wasteful of the animals that were commercially slaughtered for my consumption in the market.  Yet, I kill anyway.

Why?  _Fun _ is part of it...

There is something special about killing and eating.  There is something primal and something that I think that humans, in our current society have lost.  I see so many people who really have no idea where there meat comes from.  Most don't even want to know.  Personally, when I kill, I feel like I am garnering an old pragmatic wisdom by participating in something that my species has evolved to do.  With my weapons of death, I slip back in time and I become aware of myself in ways that I can't describe right now.  

If you ever meet me (or my children, because I teach these skills to them) you will meet a gentle man who loves everything around him, but underneath that veneer, there is something primal and brutal - beautiful.  There is blood and humanity.

*Regarding the pain an animal feels...*

This fall, I stood in my tree stand and took an easy shot at a four point buck.  Something flicked in my eye, so I was slightly off.  The arrow went into the animals guts and it ran off.  The rest of the day, I tracked the deer by following its blood trail through the snow.  It was starting to get late, so I called the wife on the cell and told her what was happening.  She told me to quit and go back in the morning, but I thought I could hear the deer up ahead so I kept up my pursuit.  I came upon the animal in a clearing.  It had collapsed from blood loss and exhaustion.  When it saw me, it struggled to its feet and attempted to run.  I pulled my knife and gave chase.  Weakened, the deer slipped and fell.  I fell on it, grabbed it by the head and cut its throat.  The deer grunted and was quiet.  The forest was quiet.  The snow was cold and the blood was warm.  I think about that animals pain and its lasts moments and I know that it is not the only one to suffer.  I am not the only one to cause such suffering.  Do the wolves care when they take a moose in the snow and begin eating it while it is still alive?  Why should I be different?

*This brings me to the point Catch and Release fishing.* 

My cat had kittens last spring.  During the summer, she would take the little ones outside.  Then she would proceed to catch a bird or a rodent and wound it so it couldn't escape.  The animal, still alive was brought back to the kittens so they could practice killing.  They are very innefficiant and the animal's suffering must have been great.  When the animal expired, they abandoned their play and went inside to get some food.  Without that practice, how could they ever become better?

Are my children any different?  I took my three year old daughter fishing last summer.  We caught a whole bunch of sunfish and perch and I put them into a bucket.  She was excited and happy and so was I.  Experimenting, she took a stick and poked at the fish in the bucket.  They swam out of the way easily.  Then I drained some water out of the bucket and picked one up.  I showed it to my daughter and then she proceeded to pick up a fish to show me.  I know many adults, children, and entire families, where not a single person could do what she just did.  The wriggly slimy thing, for some reason, has become dangerous and menacing.  My daughter has not fear of such things.

My earliest memory (I was two and a half) is of picking up a live fish and handing it to my father.  I remember how the fish filled my hands and dissappeared into my fathers.  He was like a god at that moment....

upnorthkyosa


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## Baytor (Jan 26, 2005)

I have a couple of problems with PETA.  They seem to care more about animals than people.  Sure, bunnies are cute and all, but couldn't they spend some of that money feeding kids here in America that live below the poverty level   (that's a subject for another thread though) ?

My biggest problem is that they send money to ultra extremist groups like the ALF/ELF.  For those who may not know, the Animal Liberation Front and the Earth Liberation Front are the largest terrorist groups in America, causing over 60 million dollars in damage.  These are the fruitcakes who destroy research labs and spike trees.  They claim that they don't hurt people at all, but they have left secondary explosive devices behind in labs they trashed at the U of M that were designed to kill first responders.  

I'll try to find a link for documenting that.


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## kenpo tiger (Jan 26, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I would consider myself to be pretty liberal, but this is one of the major disagreements that I often have with my political peers.
> 
> *I hunt and I fish and I do it for fun.*
> 
> ...


I read your post with trepidation, and actually felt sick to my stomach during the paragraph about the wounded deer.

Wait.  This isn't what you think.

I am glad you had the insight to realize that the animal would be better off dead than wounded and suffering.  I don't know many hunters - perhaps two or three - and they all think the way you do.  

Personally, I can't stand it when I see an animal in pain.  

I do not have the courage to kill an animal.  I hope I never have to.

My husband and I spend a lot of time in Arizona.  As many of you know, it's a beautiful place but getting very built up very rapidly.  As a result, the desert wildlife have fewer places to live and some are becoming quite bold.  We were playing golf and I hit the ball into 'the desert', as the out-of-bounds is referred to.  My husband and the two men we were playing with were quite far ahead of me, so I walked over by myself to find the ball.  After I hit it, I heard bushes rustling behind and beside me.  I continued walking, as it could have been anything, including snakes, which we are warned not to try to deal with.  I was walking along the edge of the fairway and still heard the noises behind and next to me, so I stopped and turned around.  It was two coyotes, maybe ten feet away from me.  I heard my husband and the other men yelling something, but then my experience resembled yours with the deer - it got very quiet and I was very aware of the two coyotes, one of which locked eyes with me.  I wasn't afraid, just curious as to why the two were standing still and not charging me (I know -- what was I waiting for).  I assumed a guarding stance and held my golf club in a way that I could use it as a weapon if I had to but not in a threatening manner.  Wasn't the case.  The coyote I locked eyes with seemed satisfied that I wasn't a threat, stuck its head out as if to say 'not this time' and the two of them took off back into the desert.  I don't know if I could have hit it if it came to that.  Glad I didn't have to make the choice.  Funny thing was that I felt some sort of primal (to borrow your term) communication passing between me and the coyote, an understanding, if you will.  That is probably what would prevent me from ever being a hunter.

I still think the PETAns go too far.


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## Baytor (Jan 26, 2005)

Here's something peta would also hate.  Whack a penguin (it likes it)!  

http://www.birdcheck.co.uk/whackthepenguin.htm


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## Baytor (Jan 26, 2005)

Ok, I found the article I was looking for.  Here's the quote regarding Peta supporting ELF/ALF.

"ELF receives its funding through a number of sympathetic and allied organizations,  as well as from wealthy and other benefactors.  In addition, ELF has received support from elements of the animal rights movement, to which it is closely linked.  In January 1995, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) reportedly gave a $45,200 contribution to the Rodney Coronado support committee.  Coronado, an ELF activist, had been convicted of an arson attack against a research facility at Michigan State University.  (The previous year PETA had given a $25,000 loan to Coronados father.)  In August 1999, PETA gave a $2,000 contribution to David Wilson, the then-public spokesman for ALF and, in April 2001, PETA made a $1,500 contribution to the North American ELF to support their programs and activities.  "


For those that would like to read the full article, it's here.
http://www1.umn.edu/dcs/earthliberationfront3pub.htm

Oh, and the reason that I goup the ALF/ELF togather is because they  declared solidarity and support for each other in September of 1993.


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## Deuce (Jan 26, 2005)

I just find the whole idea of peta's actions to be quite silly. If you don't believe in eating meat or killing fish, fine. Just don't go around and cause problems for the people that do. I support the idea of expressing your beliefs and decisions, but it shouldn't be to the extreme of being a major pain in the a** for those who disagree.

Sure, we're dealing with natures animals, and they should be respected. But we're also dealing with natures food chain and those who participate should also be respected. 

I mean what's next? Let's go and wipe out all animals that are carnivorous or ones that fight and harm other animals? 

I think that as humans, hunting is instictive, and that may be why some of us enjoy it. Much like sexual activity. It's natures way of improving our chances of survival as a species.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 26, 2005)

Deuce said:
			
		

> I just find the whole idea of peta's actions to be quite silly. If you don't believe in eating meat or killing fish, fine. Just don't go around and cause problems for the people that do. I support the idea of expressing your beliefs and decisions, but it shouldn't be to the extreme of being a major pain in the a** for those who disagree.



In my opinion, there is an interesting reciprocity between the extreme interventions of a pro-life activist and a PETA activist.  Both of them exhibit behaviors that are stunningly similar and their response to each other usually exhibit some form of "if you don't agree fine, just don't go around and cause problems for the people that do."

Imagine a world where people listen to each other...


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## MA-Caver (Jan 26, 2005)

Deuce said:
			
		

> I mean what's next? Let's go and wipe out all animals that are carnivorous or ones that fight and harm other animals?


I think we already done that. Bears, wolves, cougars and the like. Don't see any running around town do you? But of course that was because they were a threat to US, people, not to their natural prey... weak and sick animals of which those aforementioned predators made no distinction. I mean a pack of wolves don't sit around before a hunt arguing over what to hunt next; "Aww man, we ate moose last week, lets go for deer." 
Thankfully we didn't wipe them predators out...not totally. We just encroached upon their natural habitats so we could grow our crops of nice vegetables.


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## The Prof (Jan 26, 2005)

In Florida we have these very huge roaches, up to two inches long.  Each year there is a (get ready for this) "roach racing contest."  A few years back, PETA made an appearance stating (on TV) that "roaches have right too."   :erg:

Oh well, I guess we all have our little "pet" peaves don't we?


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## kenpo tiger (Jan 26, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> In my opinion, there is an interesting reciprocity between the extreme interventions of a pro-life activist and a PETA activist. Both of them exhibit behaviors that are stunningly similar and their response to each other usually exhibit some form of "if you don't agree fine, just don't go around and cause problems for the people that do."
> 
> Imagine a world where people listen to each other...


I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there.  It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.


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## kenpo tiger (Jan 26, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> I think we already done that. Bears, wolves, cougars and the like. Don't see any running around town do you? But of course that was because they were a threat to US, people, not to their natural prey... weak and sick animals of which those aforementioned predators made no distinction. I mean a pack of wolves don't sit around before a hunt arguing over what to hunt next; "Aww man, we ate moose last week, lets go for deer."
> Thankfully we didn't wipe them predators out...not totally. We just encroached upon their natural habitats so we could grow our crops of nice vegetables.


Okay - who're you dancing with?  You can't post a pic like that w/o an explanation!!


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## Makalakumu (Jan 26, 2005)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there.  It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.



I'm not so sure about that.  I bet its a good bet that a pro-lifer and a PETAn are on opposite ends of the political spectrum...which makes the simarities I pointed out above all the more interesting.


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## Tgace (Jan 26, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *kenpo tiger*
> _I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there. It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives._


The problem I have with that concept is that they are placing human life on the same level as animal life. While I love my dog, If my house caught fire, Im going back in for my children...the dog can find his own way out.

BTW: HOLY **** thats a huge mountian lion!!


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## Baytor (Jan 26, 2005)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there. It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.


Ok I want everyone to take note here.  I'm gonna defend PETA by splitting hairs here.  

While I disagree with a lot of the crap PETA does, I do agree with one of their primary philosophies, as I think we all can.  That is this:  Don't hurt animals.  While I do occasionally hunt, and fish even less, when I do, I make sure that the animal is killed as quickly and cleanly as possible.  While I think that some peta members are well intentioned, I also a lot of them are a bit on the loopy side.  I think that these loopy ones are the ones calling the shots.  While I think that they are goofy, I don't think that they really want people to get hurt.  They do, however, support those who take more drastic action.

The organization that is more willing to hurt people and do damage is the Animal Liberation Front.  Also, I think it is wrong to associate all pro lifers with the few crazies that are willing to kill.  It is very interesting, though, how similar and different people can be at the same time isn't it?

Here's some good Peta for everyone.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 26, 2005)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Okay - who're you dancing with?  You can't post a pic like that w/o an explanation!!


I'm a gentleman... I don't kiss and tell.  :supcool:


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## Blindside (Jan 26, 2005)

Penn and Teller did a BS show on PETA.  Some of the stuff that they revealed were amazing, like that PETA euthanizes animals....  Good show and funnier than heck, especially them walking around in all leather outfits and eating lots of gratuitous meat.  They don't really pretend to be unbiased on this topic (or any other for that matter.)  

Lamont


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## kenpo tiger (Jan 26, 2005)

Of course there are extremists in most every group you will encounter in this world. But -- because of those few, the others are grouped into the *loopy* designation as well.

I have nothing against those who go hunting because, believe it or not, there are times where hunting could be justified for the sake of the animals. We have a deer population in the Northeast which has been growing disproportionately to the few areas of free space left for them to live. So what's the call here? Does *one* allow the deer to starve to death because there are too many and too few areas to feed, or does the municipality take measures and allow a controlled hunt to minimize the animals' suffering? Controversial, for sure.

My beef with PETA and ALF is that they have no business imposing their beliefs on others. but you knew I'd say that, didn't you? There will always be a market for furs and especially leathergoods as well as steakhouses galore. To walk up to a total stranger, throw blood or paint on their fur coat and rail at them about animal rights? You're getting nowhere in a hurry, except to alienate others to your cause.

PS - c'mon Ralph.  We won't tell a soul...


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## Feisty Mouse (Jan 26, 2005)

I take a little break, and miss these things....

I am not crazy about PETA.  I used to like them - now, not very much at all.  My reasons are different than others some have already listed.  I don't care that they like animals - I'm all for it.  I'm just dandy with them liking vegetarianism - anyone interested can pick up the old, but still useful and classic Diet for a Small Planet by Frances Moore Lappe for a introduction into why veggie diets can be more healthy, and more people eating veg. diets can be sustained with the same piece of earth.  

The problem I have with PETA is the manner in which they (or supporters) have raided research labs.  Have you ever seen lab animals - like rats - "freed"?  

Anyways.

I would like to address something someone mentioned, I believe MACaver, I could be wrong.

Fish flesh *is* becoming more toxic - fish in the Atlantic in particular.  Coal-burning plants across the Midwest affect the rain quality, and when the rain comes down in the East, Northeast, and in the ocean, there are high levels of toxins, including mercury, in the water.

So yes, fish flesh can be quite polluted.  Canned tuna now is not recommended for small kids or pregnant women, because of the high mercury levels in it.

Farmed salmon is also high in PCB levels, whereas wild salmon does not have those high levels.

By all means, take your kids hunting and fishing, if it is an enjoyable family time.  I would assume and hope everyone is also teaching their kids about the responsibilities of taking another life, even if it's "just" a fish or "just" for food. 

Also, if you live near large factories or plants, especially coal mines or coal plants, please be careful of what you eat.  The higher on the "food chain", the more concentrated the toxins typically are in an animal's flesh.  

If you'd like to learn more about the toxins we as humans are carrying around, check out http://www.bodyburden.org/ .

For those of you worried that you are eating overfarmed or overharvested fish (i.e. more fishing = collapse of fisheries), check out

http://seafood.audubon.org/

where you can download a little pocket guide.  It's a couple of years old now, I think, but still highly relevant.  For your dining-out evenings, rather than your dining-in.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jan 26, 2005)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I have nothing against those who go hunting because, believe it or not, there are times where hunting could be justified for the sake of the animals. We have a deer population in the Northeast which has been growing disproportionately to the few areas of free space left for them to live. So what's the call here? Does *one* allow the deer to starve to death because there are too many and too few areas to feed, or does the municipality take measures and allow a controlled hunt to minimize the animals' suffering? Controversial, for sure.


 - no, we reintroduce wolves. :wink2:


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## The Prof (Jan 26, 2005)

Amen. I believe that you are right!





			
				kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure if you scratch a PETAn, in many cases you'll find a pro-lifer lurking there. It always amazes that those people will employ ultra-violent means, including taking lives, in the name of saving lives.


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## Adept (Jan 26, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> While I love my dog, If my house caught fire, Im going back in for my children...the dog can find his own way out.


 Yeah, but if an armed assailant broke into your house and set it on fire as you knocked him out, would you run back in to get the dog or to drag out the criminal?

 Or if you had to choose between your dog, and a convicted serial killer on death row?


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## Tgace (Jan 26, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> Yeah, but if an armed assailant broke into your house and set it on fire as you knocked him out, would you run back in to get the dog or to drag out the criminal?


Neither...


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## The Prof (Jan 26, 2005)

PETA people have nothing better to do with their lives, why? because they probably don't have one. I have never killed an animal in my life. I could never hunt and kill an animal. But I have caught many fish. While I don't kill animals, I don't mind others doing so. I let them take care of my carnivorous cravings. So, bring on the burgers, Bambis mom, Donald Ducks dad and whatever. Roast em, fry em, bake em either way, they sure taste good.



			
				Baytor said:
			
		

> Ok I want everyone to take note here. I'm gonna defend PETA by splitting hairs here.
> 
> While I disagree with a lot of the crap PETA does, I do agree with one of their primary philosophies, as I think we all can. That is this: Don't hurt animals. While I do occasionally hunt, and fish even less, when I do, I make sure that the animal is killed as quickly and cleanly as possible. While I think that some peta members are well intentioned, I also a lot of them are a bit on the loopy side. I think that these loopy ones are the ones calling the shots. While I think that they are goofy, I don't think that they really want people to get hurt. They do, however, support those who take more drastic action.
> 
> ...


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## Makalakumu (Jan 27, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> - no, we reintroduce wolves. :wink2:



This may be a thread hijack, but the issue of predator reintroduction is something that I think that looks good on paper, but has some serious issues.  Feisty, that pic that MCaver posted is a predator.  _A dangerous predator_.

In the west, in areas where wolves are not favored, mountain lions reign.  I saw a mountain lion on a hunt in Montana once.  My uncle's dogs treed the beast and we road our horses well clear.  The cat that I saw was about as big as the one in the pic and watching is sit in the tree was like looking at one giant coiled muscle.  I couldn't take my eyes off it and I could feel my horse tense.  Then the thing leaped.  Or, I should say, took off like a rocket.  It cleared at least 50 feet with that one jump and disappeared so fast that it seemed like a dream.  

Mountain lions hunt by hitting their prey from behind.  That 50 foot leap, done by a 200 + lbs cat usually breaks the neck of anything it hits.  If the prey is still struggling, the cat will literally tear it apart.  

In Boulder Colorado, a town where a friend of mine lives, the environmentalists worked hard to establish "green" areas around the city.  There are trails everywhere and it truly is a beautiful place to live.  For a few years, it was great fun.  Then, these "green" areas attracted wildlife, though and following the wildlife, came the mountain lions.  Runners and bikers began to disappear and reappear as dismembered corpses.  Some animals because so audacious as to grab children right in front of their parents...

Near my home, mountain lions are being reintroduced...or are reintroducing themselves.  There are deer everywhere, so there is a lot of food.  Yet, I think that people need to be clear about the dangers of some of these animals.  Travel in pairs.  Keep your kids close.  Carry two guns in each group.  Two horses were killed on a ranch this summer by mountain lions...They are here to stay.  

Mountain Lions are not Wolves.  Wolf attacks on humans are extremely rare.  Yet, I am still wary.  I was ice fishing lake trout on Lake Saganaga a few years ago and I watched a deer tear out onto the ice.  A large pack of wolves was in hot pursuit.  There wasn't much snow, so the deer out ran the pack, barely.  So here I am, I've got three fish in front of me.  I've got their scent all over.  And there are twenty hungry, frustrated, wolves walking in my direction.  I got up, kicked the fish in three directions away from me, and backed away - slipping the safety off my gun.  The wolves grabbed the fish and disappeared.  If they had wanted to take me, there would have been nothing I could do.

Our "nature" myths have been propagated for a long time now.  "Walden" is not a "natural" forest.  

upnorthkyosa


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## PeachMonkey (Jan 27, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> In Boulder Colorado, a town where a friend of mine lives, the environmentalists worked hard to establish "green" areas around the city. There are trails everywhere and it truly is a beautiful place to live. For a few years, it was great fun. Then, these "green" areas attracted wildlife, though and following the wildlife, came the mountain lions. Runners and bikers began to disappear and reappear as dismembered corpses. Some animals because so audacious as to grab children right in front of their parents...


 I lived in Boulder and Colorado Springs, Colorado, for years, both places with mountain lions.  Neither city is being stalked by vicious predators.  Neither city is plagued by disappearances.  Moreover, the mountain lions were there first, yes?


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## Makalakumu (Jan 27, 2005)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> I lived in Boulder and Colorado Springs, Colorado, for years, both places with mountain lions.  Neither city is being stalked by vicious predators.  Neither city is plagued by disappearances.  Moreover, the mountain lions were there first, yes?



Yes, they were there first.  And yes, the city is not being over run with lions.  Yet, there have been reported incidences of attacks.  The story of a high school runner comes to mind...  

You can't pretend like this stuff doesn't happen.  Are they common?  That depends on your behavior.  

Anyway, on a larger scale, the issue of mixing predators and humans remains.  It may not always be the best option...and sometimes they (predators) do it of their own accord.


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## modarnis (Jan 27, 2005)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> I lived in Boulder and Colorado Springs, Colorado, for years, both places with mountain lions.  Neither city is being stalked by vicious predators.  Neither city is plagued by disappearances.  Moreover, the mountain lions were there first, yes?




I don't remember him saying people were being snatched out of the city.  If you read his post carefully, it seemed to be specific to designated green zones that were outside the city


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## Makalakumu (Jan 27, 2005)

A case of hunter harassment...



> Anti-Hunter Arrested for Protest- (01/13)
> Maryland
> 
> A Maryland animal activist welcomed in the New Year by harassing people hunting near his property. He now faces a series of criminal charges including hunter harassment.
> ...


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## PeachMonkey (Jan 27, 2005)

modarnis said:
			
		

> I don't remember him saying people were being snatched out of the city. If you read his post carefully, it seemed to be specific to designated green zones that were outside the city


 Having both read his post carefully for the syntax "around the city" and having lived in Boulder, where the green zones are in fact dispersed throughout the city, and having encountered mountain lions in both Boulder and Colorado Springs, I was comfortable with my previous interpretation, thanks.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 27, 2005)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Having both read his post carefully for the syntax "around the city" and having lived in Boulder, where the green zones are in fact dispersed throughout the city, and having encountered mountain lions in both Boulder and Colorado Springs, I was comfortable with my previous interpretation, thanks.



Check out this thread...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21214

Question - Could you describe your encounter(s) with the lions?


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## Feisty Mouse (Jan 27, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Yes, they were there first. And yes, the city is not being over run with lions. Yet, there have been reported incidences of attacks. The story of a high school runner comes to mind...
> 
> You can't pretend like this stuff doesn't happen. Are they common? That depends on your behavior.
> 
> Anyway, on a larger scale, the issue of mixing predators and humans remains. It may not always be the best option...and sometimes they (predators) do it of their own accord.


Well, mixing often happens because we've squeezed species out of what was once vast tacts of land and habitat.

I have no delusions about wolves being like big fluffy dogs, or mountain lions being happy kitties that will quietly leave people alone.

We have to consider the natural (or now, semi-natural) ecosystems we are trying to preserve as well.

Often reintroduction programs have not worked because people have decided to eliminate the reintroduced animals - which leads to fines and jail time, of course.

In some situations, I believe it is an intelligent thing to do.


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## 8253 (Jan 29, 2005)

Hey, who done that?  If your going to give me a bad point at least put your name on there.  I still dont like PETA, and I still like steak.


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## digitalronin (Jan 29, 2005)

Unfortunately the species they seek to preserve will become extint, but that in itself is part of the natural order.  They may prolong a species stay, but eventually it will bite the dust.   Even humanity's time on earth is limited, lets not get delusional and think we are going to be around forever.  


peace


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