# Questions and then some



## donald1 (Dec 1, 2014)

i stated this title broadly mainly because i always have questins (i guess im just a curious person) i dont mind if others post questions, if you have any question someone may answer it. (i put it here because not all the questions are related and instead of making a new tgread for all my questions i thought it be smart to just put them here)​​my first question. in martial arts anid if you want to be specific you could say the system: karate, tkd, or jiu jitsu. and if you wanted more specific you could say the style: goju(karate), shotokan(karate), isshinryu(karate) and even more specific the type of style: meibukan(goju), jundokan(goju), shoreikan(goju) 
my question, can you get more specific? also do i have this down correctly or is some of it mixed up?


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## Steve (Dec 1, 2014)

I don't understand the question.  Are you looking for something like a martial arts version of the heirarchy of biological classification?


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## donald1 (Dec 1, 2014)

yes please


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## Steve (Dec 1, 2014)

I don't think anyone's done this.  When you get your draft done, I'd love to see it!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2014)

The "family tree" for most Martial Arts will either be a snarled, tangled incestuous mess or inaccurate.

You can generally find out the lineage of an individual, but of the entire art? Dubious, at best.


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## K-man (Dec 1, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> The "family tree" for most Martial Arts will either be a snarled, tangled incestuous mess or inaccurate.
> 
> You can generally find out the lineage of an individual, but of the entire art? Dubious, at best.


Even individuals aren't easy to track. In Goju for example, the lineage of two of the biggest names, Morio Higaonna and Gogen Yamaguchi, have a tangled web.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 1, 2014)

donald1 said:


> i stated this title broadly mainly because i always have questins (i guess im just a curious person) i dont mind if others post questions, if you have any question someone may answer it. (i put it here because not all the questions are related and instead of making a new tgread for all my questions i thought it be smart to just put them here)​​my first question. in martial arts anid if you want to be specific you could say the system: karate, tkd, or jiu jitsu. and if you wanted more specific you could say the style: goju(karate), shotokan(karate), isshinryu(karate) and even more specific the type of style: meibukan(goju), jundokan(goju), shoreikan(goju)
> my question, can you get more specific? also do i have this down correctly or is some of it mixed up?



If I understand the question, from a Chinese Martial Arts POV, I believe you are looking at lineage, and depending on hw far you go back you can get pretty specific. However it tends to be the most important people in the lineage that define what you do


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## Tez3 (Dec 1, 2014)

Is there a particular reason you want to know this or is it general sort of research? 
Not that I can help sadly, it's an area I know little of. I imagine it could be very interesting but involved. Good luck with your research though.


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## Cirdan (Dec 2, 2014)

Try to make a precise model for something as complex and fluid as this and the model will end up even more complicated than what it represent which in this case will be.. probably a mess. Better to study what the arts are than to try to "classify" them in neat little boxes.


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## Zero (Dec 2, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> Try to make a precise model for something as complex and fluid as this and the model will end up even more complicated than what it represent which in this case will be.. probably a mess. Better to study what the arts are than to try to "classify" them in neat little boxes.


I agree but if someone has the time or inclination then it would still be a pretty interesting task (not something I'd undertake).  Surely this has been done or attempted though before?  What would be interesting would be to be able to carry out this classification for all systems (ok, "main/mainstream" systems, otherwise it may take several lifetimes) and to show the interrelationships between them, ie when they were first influenced, altered or even instigated by other styles, such as gong fu on karate, etc.


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## Cirdan (Dec 2, 2014)

Zero said:


> I agree but if someone has the time or inclination then it would still be a pretty interesting task (not something I'd undertake).  Surely this has been done or attempted though before?  What would be interesting would be to be able to carry out this classification for all systems (ok, "main/mainstream" systems, otherwise it may take several lifetimes) and to show the interrelationships between them, ie when they were first influenced, altered or even instigated by other styles, such as gong fu on karate, etc.



Oh I agree it is facinating. Take Patric McCarthy`s translation of the Bubishi and the theories he put foreward about how karate came to be for instance. However even at this early point in the art`s history things are anything but clean cut and "mainstream" is hard to indentify. It is not going to fit in a neat little chart at any rate.


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## Zero (Dec 2, 2014)

Well mainstream (while at the same time being the most deadly of arts) is obviously goju ryu (Okinawan), and everything else kind of just (d)evolves out of that   : )


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## Cirdan (Dec 2, 2014)

Which is why tho I am a Wado stylist we also have certain Goju Ryu elements. 

Shizendo Karate What we teach


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## jezr74 (Dec 2, 2014)

Something like this? Martial Arts Lineage Project Putting martial arts history into perspective


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## Tez3 (Dec 2, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Something like this? Martial Arts Lineage Project Putting martial arts history into perspective




Good grief! Talk about small world!  I clicked on there and found someone I knew from when I was in the RAF. I wasn't doing martial then so didn't know he did.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 2, 2014)

To properly understand lineage, you have to start with the sun source of all martial arts - Sinanju.


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## donald1 (Dec 2, 2014)

two quick questions please, 
this one is about kobudo; ko means old do means way of now my queation is what does bu mean koBUdo

second one okinawan styles like wadoryu, shitoryu, or gojuryu are okinawan but later okinawa became part of japan; could one this day and time say they are japanese


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## Cirdan (Dec 2, 2014)

Wado is not Okinawan in origin donald, it is sometimes called the most Japanese style.


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## Carol (Dec 3, 2014)

donald1 said:


> two quick questions please,
> this one is about kobudo; ko means old do means way of now my queation is what does bu mean koBUdo
> 
> second one okinawan styles like wadoryu, shitoryu, or gojuryu are okinawan but later okinawa became part of japan; could one this day and time say they are japanese



As far as kobudo, bu means war or martial but do not rely on a literal translation. The term 'kobudo' could refer to koryuu, or it could refer to traditional Okinawan weapon stylings.  

As far as Okinawan styles, it wouldn't be correct to refer to them as Japanese.   If you look in the Kenpo area, you'll see references to arts that are still called "Hawaiian" even though Hawaii is very much a part of the U.S. today.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 4, 2014)

donald1 said:


> two quick questions please,
> this one is about kobudo; ko means old do means way of now my queation is what does bu mean koBUdo



As Carol said, it is the term for "martial"… basically, kobudo 古武道 is "old martial ways". The more common usage is for Ryukyu Kobudo, which dominantly refers to weaponry systems associated with the Ryukyu Kingdom (which contains Okinawa), covering such weapons as Bo, Tonfa, Nunchaku, and Sai, but also less commonly known weapons, such as Eku (oar), Tuite, Kaiken, and more. This area of knowledge is sometimes seen alongside karate systems (more often Okinawan systems, but sometimes Japanese ones as well), although it strictly speaking is more of a separate art.

The other usage sometimes seen is as a synonym for Koryu 古流, which more literally refers to "old styles". Depending on the system and instructor, there might be a preference to refer to these arts as "Kobudo", or just "Budo" (martial ways), or "Koryu Bujutsu" (old style martial arts). It's not as common as the Ryukyu Kobudo usage, so most will automatically assume the Okinawan form.



donald1 said:


> second one okinawan styles like wadoryu, shitoryu, or gojuryu are okinawan but later okinawa became part of japan; could one this day and time say they are japanese



As Carol also said… no. It would not be correct at all. And I don't think I'd class Wado Ryu as Okinawan… at all…


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> As Carol said, it is the term for "martial"… basically, kobudo 古武道 is "old martial ways". The more common usage is for Ryukyu Kobudo, which dominantly refers to weaponry systems associated with the Ryukyu Kingdom (which contains Okinawa), covering such weapons as Bo, Tonfa, Nunchaku, and Sai, but also less commonly known weapons, such as Eku (oar), *Tuite*, Kaiken, and more. This area of knowledge is sometimes seen alongside karate systems (more often Okinawan systems, but sometimes Japanese ones as well), although it strictly speaking is more of a separate art.



Tuite, as I have always understood the term, is not a weapon. It is a system of joint locks and pressure points geared towards pain compliance. Is there some other meaning to the word that leads you to include it in a list of weapons?


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## Chris Parker (Dec 4, 2014)

Ah, dammit… good catch!

Yeah, that was me getting a bit muddled in my head… I was thinking of the Tinbe/Timbe (small shield often used alongside a short spear, called a Rochin, from memory), getting muddled up with the alternate term for Tonfa (Tuifa), and misremembering a term… oops.

You're absolutely right, Tuite is an unarmed concept, focused on joint locks and pain compliance.


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## K-man (Dec 5, 2014)

donald1 said:


> second one okinawan styles like wadoryu, shitoryu, or gojuryu are okinawan but later okinawa became part of japan; could one this day and time say they are japanese


Donald, as has been said, Okinawa was part of the Ryukyu kingdom. It was a centre for trade, including trade between Japan and China but in the early days more closely linked to China. They also had close blood ties to China through the 36 families. In 1879 Japan annexed the islands and abolished the monarchy. So technically Okinawa is Japanese, just that many of the Okinawans still refer to themselves as Okinawnan rather than Japanese.

When it comes to martial art, I differentiate between Okinawan and Japanese karate because although it originated in Okinawa, karate in Japan developed more along the sport path while in Okinawa a lot of the older traditional training has been maintained.

Again, as has been said, Wado Ryu is a Japanese style of karate but certainly the closest to the Okinawan styles. So Goju Ryu, Shito Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Uechi Ryu and Isshin Ryu are Okinawan and although there are offshoots of these most others are Japanese styles derived from the Okinawan.


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## donald1 (Dec 6, 2014)

flinching ... whats a good way to prevent that? in kobudo class most of the time i dont flinch but sometimes. im going to ask my instructor this question but i thought id ask here too cause sone people say different things


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2014)

Flinching is not necessarily something you have to avoid. If you do it intentionally, it's called evading the strike. 
Exposure is the single best way to control your flinch response.


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## Buka (Dec 6, 2014)

The lineage of American Karate, as I know it,  goes something like this -
Men came back from overseas military service in the 40's and on. They started teaching the fighting arts they had learned overseas. Their art/teachings morphed as input from other arts came in, and the needs pertaining to American society concerning personal self defense (correctly conceived or not) arose. And that continues.

Please do not mistake those statements as disrespect or the downplaying of historical significence. We are a very young art, still wet behind the ears.


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## donald1 (Dec 7, 2014)

when martial artists ad dr. to their title what does that mean?

what does xing yi translate to
thanks


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## K-man (Dec 7, 2014)

donald1 said:


> when martial artists ad dr. to their title what does that mean?
> 
> what does xing yi translate to
> thanks


I would think that they have an unhealthy ego. I know of one, who shall remain nameless, who quotes an amazing array of titles, including a doctorate, from non-existent institutions.  But it looks good if you are promoting yourself.

As to xing yi, sorry, no idea.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 7, 2014)

donald1 said:


> when martial artists ad dr. to their title what does that mean?


most of the time it means they bought their rank in a soke factory.  Possibly they just want to look impressive but i have yet to find a institution of higher learning the has a doctorate of martial arts program  say nothing of having one in a specific style


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## K-man (Dec 8, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> most of the time it means they bought their rank in a soke factory.  Possibly they just want to look impressive but i have yet to find a institution of higher learning the has a doctorate of martial arts program  say nothing of having one in a specific style


In fairness, Tetsuhiro Hokama is a real Doctor of Philosophy, an incredible martial artist and a really nice guy.



> Tetsuhiro Hokama is a 10th Dan Gojuryu Karatedo Hanshi, President of the Okinawa Gojuryu Kenshi Kai Karatedo Kobudo Association and founder of the first Karatedo museum in the World. Although not as well known in the United States compared to other Okinawan Gojuryu teachers, Hanshi Hokama is one of the most knowledgeable Gojuryu Karatedo masters. He has a deep understanding of the “Old Ways” of Karate.
> ....
> He obtained an honorary doctorate for karate studies in the U.S. in 2002 while leading his group expanding overseas, and later obtained a doctorate for physical education (martial arts) at the University of Mindanao in the Philippines in 2004. When the All Okinawa Karate Kobudo Federation of the Philippines was established on October 16, 2005,he was awarded Hanshi 10th dan by Chairman Masami Nakamura of the federation, and became it's supreme advisor.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 8, 2014)

Personally, I see no point in listing credentials that have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
Do people at the dojang care about my university degrees? Not in the least.
Do people in the ER care about my MA training? Only when they need help with someone who is combative. And even then they don't care what my rank is.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 8, 2014)

K-man  
No disrespect intended towards Tetsuhiro Hokama or anyone else that has completed a higher learning to get a college degree.
Dirty Dog
I  agree,  I see no reason to add a persons  higher learning certificate to your martial arts title. It most likely has no connection to you knowledge in the arts.


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## K-man (Dec 8, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> K-man
> No disrespect intended towards Tetsuhiro Hokama or anyone else that has completed a higher learning to get a college degree.
> Dirty Dog
> I  agree,  I see no reason to add a persons  higher learning certificate to your martial arts title. It most likely has no connection to you knowledge in the arts.


I certainly didn't take it that you were showing disrespect. I can't stand any of the grandiose titles that some MA people assume. I posted about Hokama because meeting him and having the opportunity to talk with him is a highlight of my martial art journey.

A lot of people train with or are taught by guys who have graded up through the years but have never trained with people at the highest level who themselves trained with people at the highest level. Therefore unless they do a lot of research they can be blissfully unaware of the full extent of their art. Hokama was taught by 10th dans who were taught by the original masters. His knowledge is second to none and he enjoys meeting people and talking about it. A truly remarkable man who just by coincidence has a martial art doctorate.


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## donald1 (Dec 10, 2014)

tatsuo shimabuku is brother to eizo shikabuku is he also brothers with zenryō shimabuku (ive been told theres 3 brothers)


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## TimoS (Dec 11, 2014)

donald1 said:


> tatsuo shimabuku is brother to eizo shikabuku is he also brothers with zenryō shimabuku (ive been told theres 3 brothers)


Zenryo and Tatsuo were not related


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## donald1 (Dec 11, 2014)

who was the third brother?


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## TimoS (Dec 11, 2014)

donald1 said:


> who was the third brother?


I don't think there was one, at least not someone in karate. Both Zenryo and Tatsuo studied karate with Chotoku Kyan and he had previously had a student whose name was Taro Shimabukuro, but I don't think he was related to either Tatsuo or Zenryo Shimabukuro. I could be wrong about that, but that's what I remember hearing. Apparently Shimabukuro isn't that rare a name on Okinawa


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## donald1 (Dec 11, 2014)

the other day i was talking with my mother. she brings my sister to karate. and latley she has came up with the idea the instructor has "favoratisms" her reason is because he occasionally gets on to her. but its almost like she only sees one side of the issue. the other side, im almost certain he gets on to her more often because of several reasons (im assuming the big one is memory, she comes to class and often forgets the forms she practice and other reasons but om not going too far into detail) yet her mom refuses to listen to reason. im just using thisas an example. im sure there are more difficult people, my question is; how do you deal with someone being difficult?


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## donald1 (Dec 14, 2014)

ive been practicing the niuwei dao 
(this one is mine)
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




for almost a year, and have recently been trusted with a second form and ive been thinking, maybe later on i might want a nicer dao. my question, what would the average cost of a good dao range?


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## donald1 (Mar 30, 2015)

Got another question! (Though may be an ignorant question)
At a siminar I was invited to we were doing a few basic small circle jujutsu... jijitsu? I dont remember spelling but my wuestion was; why is it called SMALL CIRCLE juijitsu
I assumed because it was because the wrist/finger locks we went over didnt involve a lot of movement on the user's side but I could be mistaken


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## K-man (Mar 30, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Got another question! (Though may be an ignorant question)
> At a siminar I was invited to we were doing a few basic small circle jujutsu... jijitsu? I dont remember spelling but my wuestion was; why is it called SMALL CIRCLE juijitsu
> I assumed because it was because the wrist/finger locks we went over didnt involve a lot of movement on the user's side but I could be mistaken


'Small Circle Jujitsu' is the name coined by Wally Jay for his form of martial art that was derived from many other sources.

Basically it is a system of training that can be applied across a broad range of martial arts that involve grappling.

Small Circle Jujitsu The History of Small Circle Jujitsu - Small Circle Jujitsu


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## donald1 (Apr 2, 2015)

another question please ...

just got my new kung fu uniform, yippee!(black with white trim) 
but to get to the point here... i know in karate they call their uniform "gi"
and i think TKD students call their uniforms "dobak" but my question is...
what do kung fu people call their uniform??
 i was looking on the internet i found a few different forrums where the question was asked 1 person used the term "saam"  and another person used the term "Xunlian Fu" though im sure the 2nd one is wrong but thought id mention it just in case
thought id ask here because maybe someone here might know
,thanks


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 2, 2015)

saam/samb is used in many places  ( never did learn how to spell it)


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## donald1 (Apr 28, 2015)

I got some questions... first questions is 5 elements (earth, wood, fire, metal, and water) and I was looking at a chart that showed both creation and destructive cycle (I think I have the two memorized but wanted to see if correct)
Creation; fire, earth, metal, water, wood
Destruction; fire, metal, wood, earth, water

Second question Chinese termonology... I don't know Chinese ive been working on a tai chi form the form has the number 10 in it, what is 10 in chinese also my new liuwei form (the instructor calls it "32 step" what is 32 and step in chinese. He stated it should be mandarin

Last question... he said theres different types of chinese he mentioned mandarin can you list a few other names (just the names dont need to go in depth answer unless you just feel like it)


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 28, 2015)

Metal produces water
Water produces Wood
Wood produces Fire
Fire produces Earth
Earth produces Metal

Metal defeats Wood
Wood defeats Earth
Earth defeats Water
Water defeats Fire
Fire defeats Metal

10 =   十   = shí
32 =   三十二   = Sān shí èr
Step =   步   = Bù

A few Chinese Dialects
Mandarin, Yue (Cantonese), Hakka, Wu


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## donald1 (May 9, 2015)

Ive been wondering this question for a while, in the goju forms I practice they all have bow before starting them. But while practicing kung fu forms there were some had no bow(im pretty sure thats what he said) my question, why?


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## K-man (May 9, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Ive been wondering this question for a while, in the goju forms I practice they all have bow before starting them. But while practicing kung fu forms there were some had no bow(im pretty sure thats what he said) my question, why?


Good question. I've never even thought about it. Normally bowing is a sign of respect and in a way of saying thank you. So before training, (bow) "thank you for agreeing to train with me" and after training, (bow) "thank you for training with me". We do the same in Aikido. It's a Japanese thing.

Now, when it comes to kata, I'm not quite sure. Certainly in competition it has two reasons. Firstly it is a bow to the judges (respect) and it also signifies the beginning of the performance. Likewise to signify the end and a thank you to the judge for watching.

In the normal performance of the kata, in training, we don't normally bow at the beginning but we bow at the end. For me it is probably because before performing the kata you empty the mind. Performing the kata you are working 'in the kata', that is the kata is doing what it means for you. When the kata is finished you come back to reality. The bow at the end is a kind of release.

Of course, when you are learning the kata and have an instructor with you, then it is like a training partner where you are bowing to each other as described above.


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## Chris Parker (May 10, 2015)

Rei ni hajimari rei ni owaru (礼に始まり礼に終わる).

(Budo) begins with a bow, and ends with a bow… The Budo Bum Budo Begins And Ends With Rei … at least, that's a Japanese art perspective… as for the kung fu systems, well, I suppose you'd have to ask the practitioners of the systems themselves to determine why they do or don't feature any particular aspect.


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## pgsmith (May 13, 2015)

In the Mugai ryu, and the Zen Nihon Battodo Renmei kata, the only time a bow is done is if the kata begins from a different direction than forward. You bow before turning to the required starting direction. Most of the kata begin from forward position, so there is no bow in the majority of them.


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## donald1 (May 19, 2015)

I got 2 questions please!

If my knoledge is correct originally cma martial arts didnt have belts, when did they start introducing them into styles?

Ive noticed in some cma forms And some of the forms have techniques where you lift your leg (maybe a kick) and you have toes facing down
Why toes facing down and not up?


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## K-man (May 19, 2015)

I don't know about the first so I'll leave that to the CMA guys but the second question is interesting. As far as I can recall, without going though every kata, we have just one 'kick' with the toes down and in the bunkai it is not a kick at all.


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## Shai Hulud (May 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> To properly understand lineage, you have to start with the sun source of all martial arts - Sinanju.


I see what you did there.

I don't think that's how you spell Pagratio though.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 20, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> I see what you did there.
> 
> I don't think that's how you spell Pagratio though.


Is Pagratio an alternate spelling of Pankration?

Anyway, Sinanju is over 4500 years old. Pankration is only around 2800 years old. Those Greeks are a bunch of Johnny-come-latelys.


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## donald1 (May 28, 2015)

Just 2 questions... about cma terms (Im not very familiar with them so I may be off on them) my first question,  where do they come up with these terms and form names? I think the instructor called one term golden rooster stands on one foot and forms like monkey steals peach?? Ive also heard it called white ape steals peach(wonder if its a big ape or a small ape) to me there are some terms that seem strange

Second question in class were going over a form and reached a point where it felt wrong. I knew we were leaving a few moves out but the instructor didnt think so. I usually am uncertain about things but on this situation im 100 % certain that a part was being left out but I dropped the topic completly and didnt argue. I dont think he would get mad but it seemed like the right thing to do. (Im sure one of the other instructors will mention it)
My question Was that the best choice on my behalf?


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## Xue Sheng (May 28, 2015)

Question 1

Translations from the Chinese idiom, some good some bad.


Question 2

Been there done that.

Talk privately and he/she may or may not admit it. If they do admit it ask why, if they don’t then it is up to you whether or not you want to push the issue or drop it.

My first sifu did that with a Taiji form. I took him aside afterwards and asked him about it. He first insisted that I remembered it wrong. Then I told him that if he liked, I could bring in the old video I have of him doing the form next week and show him. He then admitted he changed it to make it easier so students would stick with the form


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## donald1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Random question, what does tae kwon do translate? In a lot of karate schools "do" means way of.  Yet tae kwan do is korean I could imagine it might use korean terms yet. It was influenced greatly by shotokan karate.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Random question, what does tae kwon do translate? In a lot of karate schools "do" means way of.  Yet tae kwan do is korean I could imagine it might use korean terms yet. It was influenced greatly by shotokan karate.



Taekwondo translates as 'the way of kicking and punching'. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 26, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Ive noticed in some cma forms And some of the forms have techniques where you lift your leg (maybe a kick) and you have toes facing down
> Why toes facing down and not up?


When your toes is facing

- down, it's called "spring". You use your "instep" to kick the groin (low kick), or chin (high kick). The kicking path will be an "upward curve".
- up, it's called "kick". You use the "ball of the foot" to kick the belly/chest (middle kick). The kicking path will be an "downward curve".

Since all Kung Fu guys wear shoes, even the toes up kick can be seen as toes "straight" kick. It's the kicking path whether it's an "upward curve", or "downward curve" that you should look for.

Also most of the Kung Fu kicks don't pull the kicking leg back. The kicking foot will land as far as you can. This will make the "downward curve" more noticeable. This will serve the purpose of "closing the gap" and "use kick to set up punch".

In the following traditional CMA clips, the "downward curve" can be seen. You probably won't see this in the modern Chinese Wushu training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 26, 2015)

donald1 said:


> If my knoledge is correct originally cma martial arts didnt have belts, when did they start introducing them into styles?


As far as I know, the Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) may be the only CMA system that had belt ranking in the ancient time. During the Ching dynasty, the Chinese wrestlers in "善扑营 (Shan Pu Ying) - camp for good wrestlers" would be divided into 3 different ranks,

- the 1st grade "仆虎 (Pu Hu) - attacking tiger",
- the  2nd grade "仆虎 (Pu Hu) - attacking tiger",
- the 3rd grade "仆虎 (Pu Hu) - attacking tiger".

They would draw different salary.


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## donald1 (Aug 8, 2015)

I got 2 questions same subject;

In class generally a lower belt would be preffered not to correct a higher rank.
I know its showing respect and I personally never had trouble in this area (I have noticed some people make this mistake before but very rare though). My question exactly how does it show respect?

 Also what are your thoughts on the subject?(I ask this question because I like to see other peoples perspectives)


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Is Pagratio an alternate spelling of Pankration?
> 
> Anyway, Sinanju is over 4500 years old. Pankration is only around 2800 years old. Those Greeks are a bunch of Johnny-come-latelys.


You guys have some strange ways of pronouncing Kenpo.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 8, 2015)

donald1 said:


> I got 2 questions same subject;
> 
> In class generally a lower belt would be preffered not to correct a higher rank.
> I know its showing respect and I personally never had trouble in this area (I have noticed some people make this mistake before but very rare though). My question exactly how does it show respect?
> ...



In general, it is assumed that the higher ranked person knows more than the lower, and therefore lower ranks shouldn't correct higher. 
Is this always true? Of course not. And the less difference in rank, the less likely it is to be true. A 9th geup may very well have a better roundhouse kick (for example) than an 8th. And they may offer suggestions about this. If it's done respectfully, it shouldn't be a real problem. 
The same may be true of a lower rank who has prior experience, especially in a similar art. 
The bigger the difference in rank/experience, the less likely it is that it would be appropriate for the lower ranked student to offer advice. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## donald1 (Sep 3, 2015)

Quandao, kwandao and, guandao? Same weapon spelled different ways or 3 different weapons?

Liuweidao and niuweidao
If my knoledge is correct liuweidao is "willow leaf" dao and niuweidao is "ox tail" dao. Completely different meanings. Yet smelled almost the same. Thoughts??


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## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Yet smelled almost the same. Thoughts??



"A rose by any other name will smell as sweet"  Shakespeare.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Quandao, kwandao and, guandao? Same weapon spelled different ways or 3 different weapons?
> 
> Liuweidao and niuweidao
> If my knoledge is correct liuweidao is "willow leaf" dao and niuweidao is "ox tail" dao. Completely different meanings. Yet smelled almost the same. Thoughts??



Pinyin
Wade-Giles
Yale

3 different ways to Romanize the same thing... when it reality is is spelled this way 偃月刀

Do you mean Liuyedao (柳叶刀) or willow leaf saber
Niuweidao ( 牛尾刀) which was primarily a civilian weapon which is also the oxtail dao

The Chinese basically look at all Dao as a knife and there are just different types of knives, that is why they are all "dao" but if you compare 柳叶刀 to 牛尾刀 the spelling is rather different, accept for the 3rd character of course, dao (knife)


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## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2015)

It's 'sabre'....just saying


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2015)

Yeah those silly Chinese mess that up all the time 

But Dao (刀) means knife and I believe the direct translation of Liuyedao (柳叶刀) willow leaf knife and Niuweidao ( 牛尾刀) is actually Ox Tal Knife, Jian (剑) means sword


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## donald1 (Sep 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> "A rose by any other name will smell as sweet"  Shakespeare.


Strange... I thought for certain it said "spelled" but I guess its close enough


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## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Strange... I thought for certain it said "spelled" but I guess its close enough



 Ah but we say spelt not spelled that would be the Scottish play and the witches.


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## donald1 (Sep 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but we say spelt not spelled that would be the Scottish play and the witches.



I say whatever I feel like ... th@t ○r ₩hat €ver $ounds g0od!


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## donald1 (Sep 9, 2015)

I was reading some posts about people getting in trouble for simply carrying knives. And I thought for a second well... I usually have my dao in the back of my car (4 door car) ive never been pulled over (except once because tail light out) so ive never had trouble with it before but thought; would there be any problems me leaving it in the car(I keep it sheathed) I also have a large baseball bag I can put it in just in case leaving it sheathed isnt enough. Thoughts?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 9, 2015)

Depends in your local laws. When Sue and I go someplace, odds are that there will be at least two guns and knives in the car. Possibly more. But in Colorado, open carry is legal, and concealed carry without a permit is legal on or in your property. Your car is your property. So if I want to stash 8 guns, 12 knives and 6 swords in my car, it's legal. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## donald1 (Sep 17, 2015)

Two questions in regards yang style tai chi.

- who founded yang style tai chi? If my knoledge is correct it is one of those family martial artists styles so im guessing the founder last name is yang?
- who came up with the 108 step form?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 17, 2015)

donald1 said:


> - who founded yang style tai chi? If my knoledge is correct it is one of those family martial artists styles so im guessing the founder last name is yang?



Yang Luchan 

Yang family Website



donald1 said:


> - who came up with the 108 step form?



Yang Chengfu, Yang Luchan's grandson

Yang family Website


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## donald1 (Sep 23, 2015)

This october 9th I get to go to oklahoma and meet some cma people. There is going to be a lecture too. Whats a MA lecture? Ive been to college lectures many times, are they similar. (Sit quietly and listen and take notes)?

When someone uses the title doctor (dr.) In martial arts what does that mean, is it a rank?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2015)

donald1 said:


> This october 9th I get to go to oklahoma and meet some cma people. There is going to be a lecture too. Whats a MA lecture? Ive been to college lectures many times, are they similar. (Sit quietly and listen and take notes)?
> 
> When someone uses the title doctor (dr.) In martial arts what does that mean, is it a rank?



My experience is this. and lecture is a lecture is a lecture.

As for the doctor bit, it generally means they are either an MD (Medical Doctor) or a PhD in whatever they majored in while in college and it really has little to do with Martial Arts


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## geezer (Sep 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yeah those silly Chinese mess that up all the time
> 
> But Dao (刀) means knife and I believe the direct translation of Liuyedao (柳叶刀) willow leaf knife and Niuweidao ( 牛尾刀) is actually Ox Tal Knife, Jian (剑) means sword



Some years back I remember reading a thread in which two people bitterly argued as to whether _"dao"_ meant sword or knife. The person who spoke Chinese insisted that _dao meant knife _and _jian meant sword, _the official sources backed him up, and that was that. The other pointed out that regardless of whatever the standard or official Chinese English translation might be, that _in the martial arts_, a bloody _huge _blade meant for killing people (like many larger versions of _dao) _would be unhesitatingly be called a sword or saber by the vast majority of English speaking people. And that language is essentially democratic and _determined by the speakers_, not some "official authority".  You have to admit, he had a point. But the argument went on for several pages without ever being resolved.

Perhaps it's best to admit that vastly different cultures categorize their worlds differently. _Dao _in Mandarin apparently describes a category of objects that includes things that English speakers would commonly call knives and things that they would call swords, sabers, and so on. Exact one to one translation is simply not possible. Probably the easiest thing is to just use the Chinese terms and avoid the whole issue. ...Except that being tone-deaf, I can't even pronounce the simplest Chinese terms in a way that native speakers can understand.


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## donald1 (Sep 24, 2015)

Usually I end up doing poorly when attempting to pronounce chinese words. That and I only know a few words to begin with, mostly form names and even then I mostly say the english translation. 

Its a good thing my instructor speaks English


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 24, 2015)

geezer said:


> Some years back I remember reading a thread in which two people bitterly argued as to whether _"dao"_ meant sword or knife. The person who spoke Chinese insisted that _dao meant knife _and _jian meant sword, _the official sources backed him up, and that was that. The other pointed out that regardless of whatever the standard or official Chinese English translation might be, that _in the martial arts_, a bloody _huge _blade meant for killing people (like many larger versions of _dao) _would be unhesitatingly be called a sword or saber by the vast majority of English speaking people. And that language is essentially democratic and _determined by the speakers_, not some "official authority".  You have to admit, he had a point. But the argument went on for several pages without ever being resolved.
> 
> Perhaps it's best to admit that vastly different cultures categorize their worlds differently. _Dao _in Mandarin apparently describes a category of objects that includes things that English speakers would commonly call knives and things that they would call swords, sabers, and so on. Exact one to one translation is simply not possible. Probably the easiest thing is to just use the Chinese terms and avoid the whole issue. ...Except that being tone-deaf, I can't even pronounce the simplest Chinese terms in a way that native speakers can understand.



It is actually quite possible..dao means knife. Sifu/shifu means teacher and Sigung/shigong means teacher's teacher. How any non Chinese speaker chooses to use it is entirely up to that person not matter how incorrect their usage might be. For that matter Kung Fu means hard work, it does not mean martial arts. Although that has become so prevalent it has been accepted to mean Chinese martial arts. But in the west, we see a dao and call it a sword, because that is what it is to us. But trying to say that Dao means sword is just wrong.

The Chinese categorize things differently so there are a number of things they categorize as "Knife" and there are a number of things they categorize as a sword. That is why you have various Dao and various Jian. But then they also categorize a number of things a cow too so that is why you see a whole lot of animals, we would not call a cow, with niu in the name. Does not matter the dialect; Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese, they are follow these catagories. It is just their word for it sounds different. However the Chinese character used is the same


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## geezer (Sep 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> It is actually quite possible..dao means knife.



Forgive me, but I _really_ don't understand what you are saying, _Xue_. How can you say that dao means knife? _Dao_ means _dao. _No more and no less.

"Knife" is an English word and construct. It has many meanings but generally would not describe the large bladed weapons that the Chinese include in the category of _dao._ Other things that the Chinese call _dao _might fit right into our English conception of knife. But overall, Chinese categories obviously do not correspond  precisely with our categories. So Dao is dao and knife is knife.

You know this isn't just a problem with attempting to directly translate Mandarin to English. Direct, word for word translation is imperfect even among closely related languages such as English and German. Take the German _messer_ for example. The word means _knife_, but in fact it is a sword. One that in Chinese would be called a dao. Nevermind that in_ English_ it is absolutely a sword. Now there are specific historical reasons why this sword was called a messer (knife) in German. But I think even Germans of the period fully realized that a big kriegmesser (literally war-knife) was more than a knife. See the clip below:






Or check out this picture: http://www.lutel-handicraft.com/files/products/11005B.jpg

So in German a _messer_ (wink, wink) in English a _backsword_ or _saber_, in Chinese a _dao_. Translation is such an imperfect process (sigh).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Usually I end up doing poorly when attempting to pronounce chinese words. That and I only know a few words to begin with, mostly form names and even then I mostly say the english translation.
> 
> Its a good thing my instructor speaks English


There are 300,000 English words. There are only 30,000 Chinese characters. When you learn Chinese, you only need to learn 1/10 amount of words.

By using

- Chinese, I can remember 60 different CMA techniques as 60 different Chinese characters.
- English, I have to use 115 English words to remember the same 60 techniques.

That's the beauty of the Chinese character. It's much more condensed.

踢(Ti) - Forward kick,
撮(Cuo) - Scooping kick,
粘(Zhan) - Sticking kick,
撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting,
靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze,
彈(Tan) - Spring,
挑(Tiao) - Hooking kick,
纏(Chan) - Foot entangling,
合(He) - Inner hook,
掏(Tao) - Inner knee seizing,
...


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## geezer (Sep 24, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are 300,000 English words. There are only 30,000 Chinese characters. When you learn Chinese, you only need to learn 1/10 amount of words.
> ...



Well, English has many more words than any one person knows or uses. Being a "bastard" language assimilated containing bits and pieces of so many other languages, it has a _huge_ range of words. I believe I remember years ago watching a documentary series on the English language in which it was stated that for this reason the total number of words in English was roughly double that of many other European languages including French, Spanish and German. This allows for great subtlety and nuance in speech. It can also contributes to confusion and misunderstanding.

Regardless of the total number of words in the O.E.D., apparently one can function with far fewer. As a high school art teacher, I can attest that a lot of my students seem to get by with shockingly limited vocabularies.


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## donald1 (Sep 24, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are 300,000 English words. There are only 30,000 Chinese characters. When you learn Chinese, you only need to learn 1/10 amount of words.
> 
> By using
> 
> ...



are Characters the same thing as words?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2015)

donald1 said:


> are Characters the same thing as words?


1 Chinese character may equal to more than 1 English words. For example, *扣(Kou) - knee seize.*


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2015)

geezer said:


> Forgive me, but I _really_ don't understand what you are saying, _Xue_. How can you say that dao means knife? _Dao_ means _dao. _No more and no less.
> 
> "Knife" is an English word and construct. It has many meanings but generally would not describe the large bladed weapons that the Chinese include in the category of _dao._ Other things that the Chinese call _dao _might fit right into our English conception of knife. But overall, Chinese categories obviously do not correspond  precisely with our categories. So Dao is dao and knife is knife.
> 
> ...



I'm not going to go here after this, because it will get real silly, and you can go with whatever you wish but talk to any Chinese linguist (I am not one nor to I pretend to be) to a native Chinese speaker and dao "Translates" to knife. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. What any westerner wants to do with the meaning and "direct" translation after that does not realty matter.

Dao is a "category" that is all like cow or dog or horse to the Chinese, it is a category.

And if you want to get really technical Dao is the romanization of the "sound" you get when you read *刀* and the character *刀* "translates" :to knife.

Now I am not going to argue this, discuss this or go further with this, can't help the reality of it or those who have misconceptions about it, just like those that call themselves grandmasters and use the title sigung/shigong for that....and again, to anyone that knows the language sigung/shigong means teacher's teacher...not grandmaster...

and for the record, German is not any dialect of Chinese

Ich finsihed, auf Wiedersehen

I would have used the Chinese, but apparently that is up to interpretation as to what it means when written


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## geezer (Sep 25, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not going to go here after this, because it will get real silly...



Absolutely silly. I mean really, ...we are literally arguing semantics! 

Anyway, my whole point was _not _to disagree with you. I know from previous posts that you have lived in China, speak Mandarin and have a Chinese wife. I do not speak any dialect of Chinese and _absolutely_ defer to your authority in how the Chinese view _dao_.

My point about the term was _entirely different_ and comes from having studied social anthropology and linguistics a long time ago. A very influential professor of mine, David Murray (Experts - David W. Murray - Hudson Institute)  made quite a point about how different cultures organize their worldviews in markedly different ways, breaking reality down into very different categories which in turn are expressed through their languages. Their language, in turn also influences how they perceive their world by imposing it's constructs upon their human perception.

Let me give an example. Prof. Murray did his doctoral research on the Navajo reservation in northern Arizona and New Mexico, and became one of very few non-Navajos to speak that very difficult, tonal language. In our seminars, he shared with us that in the Navajo language, the colors we, in English, call blue and green are _the same_. That is to say that Navajo has _one term that includes both blue and green_. Native Navajo speakers simply deconstruct reality differently. That does not mean that they cannot distinguish between shades of blue and green. They just call them the same thing.

The problem comes when you try to translate Navajo linguistic constructs into another language, such as American English. There is no single word to word correspondence. Prof. Murray pointed out that this sort of conceptual variance is, of course, especially true of very different cultures like the Navajo, Anglo-American, and Chinese, for example. But to a lesser degree these kinds of differences are still apparent when comparing different Western cultures (such as the English and German example previously referenced), and even can create misunderstandings between sub-cultures who are said to speak the same language. Like me a Yank getting totally confused reading some of _Tez's_ posts. 

So, I really have _no opinion_ about how the Chinese view _dao_. I was just noting that they certainly seem to use the term differently than we use the English tem "knife". And if such a relatively straight-forward term can create such confusion, imagine how much confusion there must be for us Westerners trying to comprehend the subtleties of the more abstract concepts involved in TCMA.

Dao (knife)
http://www.angelsword.com/photos/oriental/bk123-693a.jpg

Falchion (sword)
http://www.peterjohnsson.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/falchion.jpg

Saber (sabre/sword)
http://www.sailorinsaddle.com/media...S_MAMELUKE_SABER_RELIC_634460979076686250.jpg


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2015)

Never lived there by the way.

You run into something similar in Mandarin for he and she the spoken word for both is Tā, but the characters are different 他 (he) 她 (she). This can make for some rather embarrassing conversation, in English, with a native Chinese speaker, because they tend to use he and she interchangeably.


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## geezer (Sep 25, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> You run into something similar in Mandarin for he and she the spoken word for both is Tā, but the characters are different 他 (he) 她 (she). This can make for some rather embarrassing conversation, in English, with a native Chinese speaker, because they tend to use he and she interchangeably.



This could be quite useful in some circles. My daughter has a lot of friends in the local LGBT community and believes that English really needs to develop gender-neutral pronouns. Sounds like the Chinese are way ahead of us there.

Now about what folks call a "knife", apparently there is some disagreement even in the English speaking world:


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## Buka (Sep 26, 2015)

The english language is crazy. Take the term "world wide web" for example. It's three syllables long. Until we, here in America, shorten it to WWW......which is nine syllables.

I hope we don't shorten it anymore, it will take three minutes to say.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 26, 2015)

Buka said:


> The english language is crazy. Take the term "world wide web" for example. It's three syllables long. Until we, here in America, shorten it to WWW......which is nine syllables.
> 
> I hope we don't shorten it anymore, it will take three minutes to say.



I write 3W at work


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## kuniggety (Sep 27, 2015)

I am a student of languages. I studied French in high school (I still remember enough for survival/basic conversational needs), a little Japanese in college (and lived here) but am a loser and never took advantage of the opportunity to get fluent, have a bit of knowledge of Mandarin (but no real practice using it), and am at the basic conversational graduating to conversational level Thai (i.e. It's becoming my strongest foreign language). I've also taken stabs at Tagalog. I find it fascinating the different ways cultures express certain ideas. English and French share a lot in common but the vocabulary of English is huge which has been commented on. Thai and Mandarin are very similar. They are both 5 tone, similar grammar, and gender neutral pronouns. The writing is starkly different, however with Thai having a more proper "alphabet". Then there's Japanese which doesn't share roots with any other language but it's pronunciation is a subset of English and has a derivative of the Chinese writing system. I've found the 80/20 rule to hold strongly true. That is: 80% of them time you use 20% of the language. English might have 300k words but the guesstimated literacy of a college educated fluent speaker is in the 30-40k range. In everyday speech we use less than 1/10 of that. In just about any language you can have basic conversational ability with 1k words and advanced speech with 2k-3k. Usually 5k+ you're considered fluent in a language.


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## donald1 (Sep 27, 2015)

I got another question, I asked my instructor about the lecture (going to MA event and theres going to be a lecture) his reply mostly philosophy. Well whrn I think of philosophy I think of things like socrates, renee decartes, free will vs determinism, or theory of mind. Usually MA dosnt cross my mind when thinking about philosophy. My question, what is their relation??


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 27, 2015)

Is it a Chinese marital art, if so then there is a lot of Chinese philosophy, same for Japanese

Chinese Philosophy

Japanese Philosophy

Although I will admit I have never heard of a purely philosophical lecture associated with CMA. If it is there, it tends to be integrated


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## donald1 (Sep 27, 2015)

I asked my instructor through text message and he said t look up daoism. And I did. though I only read enough to learn its also called taoism (I think it called them the same thing) though I plan on researching more on that tommarow


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## kuniggety (Sep 27, 2015)

donald1 said:


> I asked my instructor through text message and he said t look up daoism. And I did. though I only read enough to learn its also called taoism (I think it called them the same thing) though I plan on researching more on that tommarow



Taoism is Daoism. When writing Mandarin using Western script, the "t" is usually used to indicate the Western "d" sound.


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## donald1 (Oct 2, 2015)

I got two questions please. 
1. When people discuss MA and philosophy;  what are some examples that someone may discuss?

2. MA without kata (forms) all the different ma styles I practiced have forms. Im curious, what do styles without forms do? Do they focus on techniques and and uses for techniques?


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## Chris Parker (Oct 3, 2015)

Question 1: Go to the lecture and find out. Different arts will mean different things. Some will apply philosophical concepts (such as Taoism, listed above), some will apply their own (martial) philosophies… the thing to remember is that a philosophy is not the same as philosophy (in regards to an academic study).

Question 2: Depends on the art.

So, to recap… 1: Depends on the art. 2: Depends on the art.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 6, 2015)

donald1 said:


> I got two questions please.
> 1. When people discuss MA and philosophy;  what are some examples that someone may discuss?



What Chris said



donald1 said:


> 2. MA without kata (forms) all the different ma styles I practiced have forms. Im curious, what do styles without forms do? Do they focus on techniques and and uses for techniques?



Also what Chris said with one addition.... the 2 I have trained that say they do not have forms.....have drills....which are much like form with application


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## donald1 (Oct 16, 2015)

I liked the lectures. Sort of, some were interesting to listen to (my favorite one discussed "change" how forms change over time and other martial arts aspects. And even made comparison to stuff like nature.) Some were confusing and I when I get bored or very confused my concentration and focus seem to... disappear.  I dont like sitting still and quiet. Id rather try something but listening can be intetesting and have good information to learn.  Maybe one day id like to teach one 
My question, what is your opinion on MA related lectures?


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## geezer (Oct 16, 2015)

donald1 said:


> My question, what is your opinion on MA related lectures?



I can enjoy a MA discourse more if it is interspersed with demonstrations. Pure lecture format can seem pretty dry and far removed from the physical reality of the MA. Or maybe that's just my ADD talking. 


OK, ...when I was very young  I was really impressed by a couple of my professors. For a while, I actually planned to make a career in academia. And I always thought it would be cool to approach teaching martial arts with that kind of intellectual depth and rigor. Well, talk about driving students away in a hurry. Sheesh! 

If you want an example of what that's like read Kung-fu Tea. Good stuff, but dry. Ben Judkins, the author, is an academic and former professor at the U. of Utah:

Kung Fu Tea

BTW several MT members are highly educated academics. Thankfully they tend to be a lot less ponderous than Judkins.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 16, 2015)

donald1 said:


> My question, what is your opinion on MA related lectures?



The closest I got to one was with Yang Jwing Ming and it was a combined lecture, demo, hands on kind of thing and I found it a rather interesting and informative approach. however, if he just stood there for 3 hours and lectured I doubt I would have made it all the way through, no mater how entertaining he can be at times


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## Buka (Oct 16, 2015)

donald1 said:


> 2. MA without kata (forms) all the different ma styles I practiced have forms. Im curious, what do styles without forms do? Do they focus on techniques and and uses for techniques?



Yes. 
Grappling, sparring, two man drills, stretching, drilling up and down the floor, bag work, target mitts, kicking shields, various core exercises, etc.



donald1 said:


> I liked the lectures. Sort of, some were interesting to listen to (my favorite one discussed "change" how forms change over time and other martial arts aspects. And even made comparison to stuff like nature.) Some were confusing and I when I get bored or very confused my concentration and focus seem to... disappear.  I dont like sitting still and quiet. Id rather try something but listening can be intetesting and have good information to learn.  Maybe one day id like to teach one
> My question, what is your opinion on MA related lectures?



I'll listen to any Martial Art lecture. And just about from anyone, too. (within reason) I've always found them informative and enjoyable. A lot of times it's not the subject matter, but rather, the speaking ability of the person giving the lecture.

Also, if _you_ lecture - you sometimes pick up some technique and style.


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## donald1 (Nov 10, 2015)

Hot another question! Probably should have asked sooner. When I was at Oklahoma one of the things I did was make a donation to the one of the instructors their (I think they are making a new dojo or something) and people who donate get their name on a tile. i made one of the donations. And he asked if I have a chinese name... im standing there confused and thinking (why do I need a chinese name??) And now I have one.



 
My question what are they for?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 10, 2015)

The same thing "Donald" or "Joe Smith" or "Ritchie Cunningham' is for. It is just in Chinese the sir name comes first.


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## donald1 (Dec 30, 2015)

I was reading a list of techniques on a paper labelled as "straight line 64 palm ba gua zhang" 

Im curious... 
There are technoques like 

old buddhist monk holds an alms bowl

Hungry tiger digs to the heart

Two immortals praying

Theres more (those were just a few examples) a lot of them sound oddly specific
My question... who comes up with these names? What is their reason?
Is it based off some type of religion or mythology or possibly by observing there surroundings??? (Actually im pretty sure NOT all of them come from observation because you cant just look look out your window and find a lazy dragon lies on a pillow)


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 30, 2015)

They are Chinese idioms which can make it easier for a student (Chinese student) to understand what is going on


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 30, 2015)

Consider that Chinese characters are pictograms, they supposedly look like what they are. It's a way of symbology that is more direct than our Western redirection of words to sounds to rote memorization of word meanings.

Dragon Brings Tail is a pretty visual way of saying spinning back kick, eh? Fyi, I'm making that up, I don't study cma.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 30, 2015)

白鹤凉翅 
bai2 he4 liang4 chi4 
White Crane Spreads its Wings

抱虎归山 
bao4 hu3 gui1 shan1 
Embrace the Tiger and Return to Mountain

高探马 
gao1 tan4 ma3  
High Pat on Horse

In some cases it is simply what the form looks like
Taijiquan:White Crane Spreads its Wings and High Pat on Horse look like what the name says


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## geezer (Dec 30, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> In some cases it is simply what the form looks like. Taijiquan:White Crane Spreads its Wings and High Pat on Horse look like what the name says



Wing Chun later tended to break with this Chinese tradition of using poetic descriptions for movements or techniques. In WC the names tend to be very straightforward. Unfortunately, the movements themselves can still be very difficult to understand and apply properly!


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## Buka (Dec 31, 2015)

Embrace the Tiger and return to Mountain was always my favorite. In real life.

In movie life I gotta' go with Dragon seeks path and Dragon whips his tail. I could watch that scene every day.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 31, 2015)

geezer said:


> Wing Chun later tended to break with this Chinese tradition of using poetic descriptions for movements or techniques. In WC the names tend to be very straightforward. Unfortunately, the movements themselves can still be very difficult to understand and apply properly!



What!? You mean to tell me you don't get an instant understanding of Fook Sau (伏手) by translating it to the English "prostrating hand" or you don't have a clear understanding of (小念头) Siu Lim Tao by knowing it translates to "Little Idea"...SHEESH 

If I remember correctly in the training in Sanda was much easier to understand by knowing the name...things like like "zhuàng shù" (撞树) "Hit the tree"


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## donald1 (Dec 31, 2015)

If thats the easy part whats the hard pa rt... im going to bet its trying to pronounce it 

Last time I hit the tree I got a bruise across my hand... (both hands, I didnt learn the lesson the first time.) 

Lesson: dont mess with trees.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 31, 2015)

donald1 said:


> If thats the easy part whats the hard pa rt... im going to bet its trying to pronounce it
> 
> Last time I hit the tree I got a bruise across my hand... (both hands, I didnt learn the lesson the first time.)
> 
> Lesson: dont mess with trees.



NO!!!!

The lesson is....never...and I mean NEVER!!!!! trust a tree


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## donald1 (Jan 31, 2016)

3 questions please. (All three opinion based; no right or wrong answers)

1. Names. Do you call your instructor by his/her name or title (if your response is "title" do you refer to your instructor by title only in the dojo or outside of the dojo as well?)

2. What color MA uniform do you wear and why?

3. Grabs in sporting events. Do you allow grabs in MA sport events? Why or why not?


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## kuniggety (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm responding about BJJ since that's my current focus...

1. Coach. I haven't seen him outside of class, so not sure what I'd call him then. Probably Coach Jay. When I had a Brazilian for an instructor, I called him Professor.

2. My kimono/gi is blue. White, blue, and black are the most common with white being number one. Brown and purple are not uncommon (following the pattern of the same colors as the belts) but I've also seen some female cut pink ones and ran into a dude with a camo one. In general it's wear whatever color you want. I like blue so I wear blue.

3. We're a grappling art so yes, grabs are pretty essential.


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## pgsmith (Jan 31, 2016)

OK, but the answers are going to be a bit different ...
1) By title in the dojo, by name outside depending upon the circumstances and who we're with.
2) Black, because that's what we are instructed to wear.
3) No grabs, because you don't try to grab someone wearing swords as you'll pull back a stub.  Actually our competitions are non-contact and involve forms and cutting patterns only, so it really doesn't apply.


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## donald1 (Feb 11, 2016)

Tai chi and taijiquan; are they the same style or two different styles?

In tai chi forms or atleast the ones I do often use holding a ball (as seen in picture bellow) my question, why?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 11, 2016)

Tai Chi Chuan is Wade Giles Spelling
Taijiquan is Pinyin Spelling
Both come from 太極拳

So you have

Chen t'ai chi ch'uan
Yang t'ai chi ch'uan
Wu t'ai chi ch'uan
Wu/Hao t'ai chi ch'uan
Sun t'ai chi ch'uan

and

Chen tàijíquán
Yang tàijíquán
Wu tàijíquán
Wu/Hao tàijíquán
Sun tàijíquán


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## Tez3 (Feb 11, 2016)

donald1 said:


> 3. Grabs in sporting events. Do you allow grabs in MA sport events? Why or why not?



It'll depend on what you are grabbing I imagine


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 11, 2016)

donald1 said:


> 3 questions please. (All three opinion based; no right or wrong answers)
> 
> 1. Names. Do you call your instructor by his/her name or title (if your response is "title" do you refer to your instructor by title only in the dojo or outside of the dojo as well?)


Depends on the instructor/dojo, but generally will refer to them as 'sensei' 'sifu' or 'sir' during class time (if they ask me not to call them any of the above, I still end up calling them sir). Outside of class, I call all of them by their first name.



> 2. What color MA uniform do you wear and why?


I have blue, black, and white gis. The white gi I will wear mainly only if I am looking at a new dojo or style. I don't do it often, but have it just in case, since I consider it rude to wear a colored gi to a new dojo. The blue one I wear when i roll. It was a gift to me and is much heavier than my other gis, so I save it for rolling/grappling/throwing. Finally, I have multiple lightweight black gis. Those are my favorite, and if I am not grappling, and have permission I will wear one of them. They're the ones I wear most.



> 3. Grabs in sporting events. Do you allow grabs in MA sport events? Why or why not?


I don't participate in these.


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## Buka (Feb 12, 2016)

donald1 said:


> 3 questions please. (All three opinion based; no right or wrong answers)
> 
> 1. Names. Do you call your instructor by his/her name or title (if your response is "title" do you refer to your instructor by title only in the dojo or outside of the dojo as well?)
> 
> ...



I've been fortunate to have had many instructors. Some of whom are still alive. I call them whatever they wish, whatever is proper Martial protocol. Some I call by their first name, some by title. But that sometimes changes depending on where we are. If I'm with someone I consider my instructor and call him by first name (at his insistence), but we are somewhere else where protocol dictates otherwise, I go with the protocol. If we are completely outside of a Martial Art environment I'll call him whatever I think I can get away with. 

I wear a black gi. Have worn many colors over the years, but black is both my formal gi and my favorite gi.

Grabs - up to whoever sets the rules. I love grabs.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2016)

donald1 said:


> 3 questions please. (All three opinion based; no right or wrong answers)
> 
> 1. Names. Do you call your instructor by his/her name or title (if your response is "title" do you refer to your instructor by title only in the dojo or outside of the dojo as well?)
> 
> ...



1. by his first name in or out of class. Also Sifu, but only in class
2. Whatever I decide to wear, Traditional CMA, no uniforms
3. Don't do sports events, but walked away form an inter-school sparing class because they would not allow it. At that time, like now, I use qinna and I was not trained to spar like they wanted me to


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## donald1 (Mar 16, 2016)

How does daoism influence martial arts? Its philosophy and for some its a religion. Personally I dont really know anything significantly important about it and im uncertain how these two pieces fit together.


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## Steve (Mar 16, 2016)

donald1 said:


> How does daoism influence martial arts? Its philosophy and for some its a religion. Personally I dont really know anything significantly important about it and im uncertain how these two pieces fit together.


Wouldn't the answer to this depend entirely on the origin of each martial art?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2016)

donald1 said:


> How does daoism influence martial arts? Its philosophy and for some its a religion. Personally I dont really know anything significantly important about it and im uncertain how these two pieces fit together.



In some CMA, mostly internal arts and mostly in philosophy not religion. In Taijiquan it allegedly influence the making and use of the postures, In Bagua, that is where circle walking allegedly comes from, in Xingyi, like the other IMA styles, in the use of Qi and/or internal energy. I arts outside of China, the influence would be through the indigenous religions that were influenced by Taoism; example, in Japan there is some belief that Shinto was influenced by Taoism and Buddhism and there for any Japanese marital art that was influenced by Shinto would be "very" indirectly influenced by Taoism


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## donald1 (Mar 28, 2016)

I got 2 questions about that bouncing stuff you see some martial artists.
1. Why do people do it?
2. I could imagine it makes having a strong sturdy stance difficult.  Does it?


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## Buka (Mar 28, 2016)

Really hard to say why anyone does anything in MA. But, I think the answer to your first question is because whatever the venue they train and/or compete in, they've found they can get away with it and they seem to enjoy doing it. (I always thought there should be somebody on the sidelines with audio equipment tuned to the sound effect of _Sproing Sproing Sproing.)
_
I wish everyone would bounce. Fighting would be so much easier.

I don't know about the second question, never bounced much.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 28, 2016)

donald1 said:


> I got 2 questions about that bouncing stuff you see some martial artists.
> 1. Why do people do it?
> 2. I could imagine it makes having a strong sturdy stance difficult.  Does it?



I have no idea what you are asking, but I am going to say the answer is 42


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## mograph (Mar 28, 2016)

donald1 said:


> 1. Do you call your instructor by his/her name or title (if your response is "title" do you refer to your instructor by title only in the dojo or outside of the dojo as well?)


All of us, Anglo or HK, in English or Cantonese, address him as "Sifu." In English, we _refer_ to him as "Master Chau." I haven't paid attention to how the other guys refer to him in Cantonese: probably "Chau Sifu." Outside class, same thing. Master Chau is 83 and studied/taught at Jingwu, so he's old school. 



donald1 said:


> 2. What color MA uniform do you wear and why?


Street clothes all the way. 



donald1 said:


> 3. Grabs in sporting events. Do you allow grabs in MA sport events? Why or why not?


We do mostly Yiquan, which usually doesn't have sporting events. Sometimes we do Xingyiquan.


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## mograph (Mar 28, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Tai chi and taijiquan; are they the same style or two different styles?


As XS wrote: different spelling of the same thing. 



donald1 said:


> In tai chi forms or at least the ones I do often use holding a ball (as seen in picture bellow) my question, why?


It's an in-between posture, after one kind of action and before another. It helps you keep track of where your arms are, making it easier to engage full-body strength, IMO. It's knd of like regrouping.


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## WaterGal (Mar 28, 2016)

donald1 said:


> I got 2 questions about that bouncing stuff you see some martial artists.
> 1. Why do people do it?
> 2. I could imagine it makes having a strong sturdy stance difficult.  Does it?



You mean like in Olympic TKD competitions?  It's to stay light on your feet.  The WTF rules don't allow grappling at all, so competitors are less worried about having a strong sturdy stance than about being ready to rush in and kick as fast as possible at any second when they see an opening.


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## mograph (Mar 28, 2016)

Edit due to misinterpretation.


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## mograph (Mar 28, 2016)

donald1 said:


> In class generally a lower belt would be preffered not to correct a higher rank.
> I know its showing respect and I personally never had trouble in this area (I have noticed some people make this mistake before but very rare though). My question exactly how does it show respect?


We don't want to make the higher ranked artist lose face. Very bad in East Asian cultures.



donald1 said:


> Also what are your thoughts on the subject?(I ask this question because I like to see other peoples perspectives)


When in Rome, do as the Romans do. But really, it depends on the etiquette of the specific class/dojo. If the teachers are good, I'm fine with it. But in general, I won't correct an upper student's own form (hey, I'm not the master), but if I see that upper student _teaching_ the wrong form, I've been known to ask the teacher, within earshot of the upper student, what the correct form is for _myself_ ... but I'll leave it at that; I won't say "so why is _he_ teaching it wrong?"


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2016)

donald1 said:


> I got 2 questions about that bouncing stuff you see some martial artists.
> 1. Why do people do it?
> 2. I could imagine it makes having a strong sturdy stance difficult.  Does it?



It's a sport thing. That's why you see it in Olympic TKD sparring, or boxing. You won't see it (at least, not nearly as much) in non-sport sparring, especially if grappling and sweeps are being used.


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## donald1 (May 21, 2016)

Science... and martial arts. Do these two things belong?

And whats the thing with religion and martial arts like Christianity, catholicism, Judaism... ect.  How do religion and martial arts go together?


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## Buka (May 22, 2016)

I think science and Martial Arts go together just fine. 
As for the religion part of it - I'm not really religious, but back in the day we had an open door policy for fighting. One of the schools that frequently came down was a Christian Karate school taught by Joe Dugay. I don't remember what style they were, but they could flat out fight.


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## donald1 (May 27, 2016)

I got 1 question today, whats a triple warmer (the only one I know of is triple warmer 17; slightly below the ear I think)
But im not quite sure what they are.


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## Xue Sheng (May 27, 2016)

donald1 said:


> I got 1 question today, whats a triple warmer (the only one I know of is triple warmer 17; slightly below the ear I think)
> But im not quite sure what they are.



Sanjiao

May also want to look at Wuxing


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## Chris Parker (May 31, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Science... and martial arts. Do these two things belong?



No… because things like biology, anatomy, physics, biomechanics, geometry, even "soft sciences" like psychology have no place in martial arts… it's all just guesswork and hope… 

A little more seriously, why on earth wouldn't they? Many Western and Asian systems have referred to themselves as "martial sciences" (or similar) for centuries… 



donald1 said:


> And whats the thing with religion and martial arts like Christianity, catholicism, Judaism... ect.  How do religion and martial arts go together?



What do you mean by "the thing" with (Western) religions and martial arts?


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## donald1 (Jun 1, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> No… because things like biology, anatomy, physics, biomechanics, geometry, even "soft sciences" like psychology have no place in martial arts… it's all just guesswork and hope…
> 
> A little more seriously, why on earth wouldn't they? Many Western and Asian systems have referred to themselves as "martial sciences" (or similar) for centuries…
> 
> ...


Perhaps thats not the best way to phrase that last question. A better way of phrasing this; martial arts and religion, why do they combine these two?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Perhaps thats not the best way to phrase that last question. A better way of phrasing this; martial arts and religion, why do they combine these two?



IMO, mostly misunderstanding and myth

EDIT: Should also have added, mistranslation too


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## donald1 (Jun 1, 2016)

Pressure points on the tongue. While examining an acupuncture chart some of the miscellaneous points were located on the tongue. Im pretty sure people dont put acupuncture needles through it. What do they do with those points?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 2, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Perhaps thats not the best way to phrase that last question. A better way of phrasing this; martial arts and religion, why do they combine these two?



Who are "they" that are combining Western religions (your list was Christianity, Catholocism [difference there being…?], Judaism) with martial arts? I can only think of dominantly American dojo who teach things like "Christian Karate" and so forth… but it's really nothing at all to do with "combining" them… more just that the people in charge of the particular schools want to include both major areas of their lives… 



donald1 said:


> Pressure points on the tongue. While examining an acupuncture chart some of the miscellaneous points were located on the tongue. Im pretty sure people dont put acupuncture needles through it. What do they do with those points?



That would be a question for the acupuncturist whose chart you saw…


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## donald1 (Jun 2, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Who are "they" that are combining Western religions (your list was Christianity, Catholocism [difference there being…?], Judaism) with martial arts? I can only think of dominantly American dojo who teach things like "Christian Karate" and so forth… but it's really nothing at all to do with "combining" them… more just that the people in charge of the particular schools want to include both major areas of their lives…
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a question for the acupuncturist whose chart you saw…


Yes, stuff like "christian karate" (I used the word "they to describe people in general; nobody in particular)
I dont know for sure what they do ive never been to one. Im assuming it might be a normal martial arts class but also openly shares religious beliefs. But that is just my assumption.


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## donald1 (Feb 15, 2017)

I got  2 opinion questions,

How do you react to students who arrive at class late?

Do you think its important for your students to remember terminology?


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## kuniggety (Feb 15, 2017)

donald1 said:


> I got  2 opinion questions,
> 
> How do you react to students who arrive at class late?
> 
> Do you think its important for your students to remember terminology?



1. I shake their hand. Peoples' schedules are all different. It bugs me when people get worked up about it. If I can get away from work for a bit (I'm in a bit of a transition period currently) then I'll drop in a 1000 class as an early lunchtime. I never get there right at 1000. They usually assign me some burpees or whatnot, but that's really to ensure I'm warmed up before jumping in. It's the same if I go to a nighttime class. I've got two boys I'm taking care of. If they take too long on their hw, spend too much time playing at dinner, there is a wait for the childcare, etc then I'm not going to be right on time.

2. People should be learning terminology for a frame of reference. I should be able to say 'rear naked choke' and a submission grappler will instantly know what I'm referring to.


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## donald1 (Apr 19, 2017)

I got an opinion question,
If you have to defend yourself how likley are you to use words to try prevent the situation?


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## oaktree (Apr 19, 2017)

donald1 said:


> I got an opinion question,
> If you have to defend yourself how likley are you to use words to try prevent the situation?


Words have power they can influence the situation drastically. From a simple I'm sorry my mistake to let's see if you are tough enough. Verbally saying I don't want to fight also let's other witnesses who police may questioned to do their report only helps your case of self defense, using words can also let your opponent drop his guard long enough saying something like hey aren't you Mikey friend(everyone knows a Mike) his brain will switch over for a second to think about it then you nail him. Playing on his emotions such as hey man sorry about that my mom is in the hospital I was in a rush to see her and I wasn't thinking and spilled coffee on you. What I am saying is think use your words to your advantage to supplement your physical skill set


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 21, 2017)

donald1 said:


> I got an opinion question,
> If you have to defend yourself how likley are you to use words to try prevent the situation?



years ago I was security in a hospital that had a mental health and detox unit and I think I had 60 or more confrontation in the 2 months (out of 6 I worked there) that I kept track of the confrontations I had, and add to that I was also security for NYS for a few years and of all of the confrontations I had I used words to talk people out of doing what they wanted to do and probably 80% of the time word worked.


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## Steve (Apr 21, 2017)

donald1 said:


> I got an opinion question,
> If you have to defend yourself how likley are you to use words to try prevent the situation?


100%


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

donald1 said:


> i stated this title broadly mainly because i always have questins (i guess im just a curious person) i dont mind if others post questions, if you have any question someone may answer it. (i put it here because not all the questions are related and instead of making a new tgread for all my questions i thought it be smart to just put them here)​​my first question. in martial arts anid if you want to be specific you could say the system: karate, tkd, or jiu jitsu. and if you wanted more specific you could say the style: goju(karate), shotokan(karate), isshinryu(karate) and even more specific the type of style: meibukan(goju), jundokan(goju), shoreikan(goju)
> my question, can you get more specific? also do i have this down correctly or is some of it mixed up?


The terms aren't used universally, unfortunately. I'd refer to Nihon Goshin Aikido as the "art", Aikido as the "family" (not Ueshiba's art - the classification from the DNBK, like "Karate-do"), and Shojin-ryu as a "style" or "sub-style" of NGA. Some would refer to Aikido (again the classification) as the "art" and NGA as a "style" (and Ueshiba's Aikido as a "style").

Perhaps there would be a cleaner classification in Japanese.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

Buka said:


> The lineage of American Karate, as I know it,  goes something like this -
> Men came back from overseas military service in the 40's and on. They started teaching the fighting arts they had learned overseas. Their art/teachings morphed as input from other arts came in, and the needs pertaining to American society concerning personal self defense (correctly conceived or not) arose. And that continues.
> 
> Please do not mistake those statements as disrespect or the downplaying of historical significence. We are a very young art, still wet behind the ears.


That's not entirely dissimilar to the history of Nihon Goshin Aikido, also brought back by a GI returning from Japan (in his case, in the early 60's).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

donald1 said:


> when martial artists ad dr. to their title what does that mean?
> 
> what does xing yi translate to
> thanks


If they don't actually have a doctorate-level degree from an accredited institution, I'd say it means they are at best insecure and at worst purposely trying to fool people into thinking they are something they are not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Personally, I see no point in listing credentials that have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
> Do people at the dojang care about my university degrees? Not in the least.
> Do people in the ER care about my MA training? Only when they need help with someone who is combative. And even then they don't care what my rank is.


For those who actually have a doctorate, I think some still hold onto the formality of that title in a way that was more appropriate 50 years ago (or more). There was a time when any title received (military, noble, educational, etc.) would be used in all occasions. Some still seem to prefer that approach, though the formality seems anachronistic to me today.


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## Jenna (Apr 22, 2017)

donald1 said:


> I got an opinion question,
> If you have to defend yourself how likley are you to use words to try prevent the situation?


If I *have* to defend my self? You mean physically?  What will words do if some one have made up their mind to try to harm? they must be physically paused and given time to think.. only then do words count for any thing.. in my experience..


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 22, 2017)

donald1 said:


> what does xing yi translate to
> thanks



I am going to assume you are taking Xingyiquan (形意拳)
Form and Mind or Form and Will boxing. Or from Wiki "Form-Intention Fist", and "Shape-Will Fist".

Xingyi/Hsing I


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

Jenna said:


> If I *have* to defend my self? You mean physically?  What will words do if some one have made up their mind to try to harm? they must be physically paused and given time to think.. only then do words count for any thing.. in my experience..


You know, I didn't read it that way the first time, but you have a point, Jenna. If we can still talk, I'm not yet at a point where I have to defend myself. And I'm not going to talk while defending myself, except to say things like "stop".


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## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If we can still talk, I'm not yet at a point where I have to defend myself.


I think there are some situations where that isn't the case, were you realise nothing you say or do is going to work as the other guy is determined that this is only going to end one way. Then Brain Engagement, which requires talking obviously, can be used to create the opportunity to pre emptively strike.


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

donald1 said:


> I got an opinion question,
> If you have to defend yourself how likley are you to use words to try prevent the situation?


words are very powerful in such a situation, you can either use them to calm the situation, or just as effectively to indecate strengh and confidence so they think twice about it. A simple " try it and see what happens" is quite effective in making them reconsider carrying out a threat


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## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> words are very powerful in such a situation...... or just as effectively to indecate strengh and confidence so they think twice about it.


They do indeed think twice, been there, got that T-shirt


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I think there are some situations where that isn't the case, were you realise nothing you say or do is going to work as the other guy is determined that this is only going to end one way. Then Brain Engagement, which requires talking obviously, can be used to create the opportunity to pre emptively strike.


Okay, that's a different interpretation, but quite valid. I was thinking of "have to defend" as that moment where the choice is no longer in my hands - meaning they've made it physical. There is sometimes that space between, as you point out.


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## donald1 (Oct 12, 2017)

i got 2 questions, both opinion questions

i like asking questions a lot. sometimes ill ask them during class or after depending on the question. obviously i don't ask while he is talking or while were going over something. however i'm curious though whats your opinion on questions during class. do you prefer to wait until the end of class or ask during class after he/she stops talking?

personally i don't think much about children in MA. i rarely see them but I've seen enough to be skeptical but, I've also seen a couple good ones too. adults can be just as troublesome too, but i'm curious what your general opinion of children in MA is?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 12, 2017)

donald1 said:


> i got 2 questions, both opinion questions
> 
> i like asking questions a lot. sometimes ill ask them during class or after depending on the question. obviously i don't ask while he is talking or while were going over something. however i'm curious though whats your opinion on questions during class. do you prefer to wait until the end of class or ask during class after he/she stops talking?



Depends. If it's a question about the application of a movement or why a movement is taught a certain way, then I'm good with asking while we're working on that movement. 



> personally i don't think much about children in MA. i rarely see them but I've seen enough to be skeptical but, I've also seen a couple good ones too. adults can be just as troublesome too, but i'm curious what your general opinion of children in MA is?



Kids and martial arts are a great match, if your expectations are reasonable.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 12, 2017)

donald1 said:


> i got 2 questions, both opinion questions
> 
> i like asking questions a lot. sometimes ill ask them during class or after depending on the question. obviously i don't ask while he is talking or while were going over something. however i'm curious though whats your opinion on questions during class. do you prefer to wait until the end of class or ask during class after he/she stops talking?
> 
> personally i don't think much about children in MA. i rarely see them but I've seen enough to be skeptical but, I've also seen a couple good ones too. adults can be just as troublesome too, but i'm curious what your general opinion of children in MA is?


I like the questions either way. Some students prefer to ask during class. Some prefer to ask after. I'm easily distracted and will go down the rabbit hole on a question, so I prefer questions that are on-topic during class, only because the off-topic ones usually lead me to change my topic.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 12, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Kids and martial arts are a great match, if your expectations are reasonable.


This.


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## JR 137 (Oct 12, 2017)

I generally ask directly related questions during transitions in class, ie about a movement in a kata after that kata is done.  Other questions can usually wait until after class.

Questions are good.  When I ask a question, often enough others have the same question or didn’t realize they were doing something wrong too.


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## donald1 (Apr 20, 2018)

Chinese terminology question does this mean thankyou? I wrote this 5 times on thankyou cards and I wanna know in advanced before I accidentally send an offensive card...
Xièxiè - 谢谢


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## _Simon_ (Apr 21, 2018)

donald1 said:


> Chinese terminology question does this mean thankyou? I wrote this 5 times on thankyou cards and I wanna know in advanced before I accidentally send an offensive card...
> Xièxiè - 谢谢



Yes it does mean thank you  (studied Mandarin for many years, I miss it actually!)


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## donald1 (Nov 2, 2018)

I got a question but before I ask I wanna start off by saying for the past two months I've been helping my instructor with an after school program and I have been assisting for almost 2 months now. Apparently the school was looking for an after school program and just happened to have a  bullying problem. Now they have a karate after school program. The first time I went I was a bit overelmed though all and all the experience is interesting. I get that some of these kids are young and just getting out of school but some of these kids just don't know how to act. Can be a real nuisance when some students want to learn while a small few can sometimes cause problems. I've already asked my instructor and got some advice from him and got some good advice but i also wanna ask here to see if anyone here has any tips.

My first question, what tips would you have for teaching kids?

Lastly, when a student acts up how do you respond? Do you take there belt? Remove a stripe? ask them to sit down? Also, how many warnings do you give the student beforehand?


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 2, 2018)

donald1 said:


> I got a question but before I ask I wanna start off by saying for the past two months I've been helping my instructor with an after school program and I have been assisting for almost 2 months now. Apparently the school was looking for an after school program and just happened to have a  bullying problem. Now they have a karate after school program. The first time I went I was a bit overelmed though all and all the experience is interesting. I get that some of these kids are young and just getting out of school but some of these kids just don't know how to act. Can be a real nuisance when some students want to learn while a small few can sometimes cause problems. I've already asked my instructor and got some advice from him and got some good advice but i also wanna ask here to see if anyone here has any tips.
> 
> My first question, what tips would you have for teaching kids?
> 
> Lastly, when a student acts up how do you respond? Do you take there belt? Remove a stripe? ask them to sit down? Also, how many warnings do you give the student beforehand?


Teaching kids is an art in itself .  Before giving an answer, I would ask you how old the kids are.   Generally, the younger the kids the lower the attention span can be.  Not always the case but I have found this to be true more often then not.   

Also what is the focus of the program ?  If it is considered an 'activity' for the kids that can be very different than kids that are signing up to learn karate specifically.   The difference being, kids that sign up for 'activities' in school are being signed up so that the child is 'entertained' for the time they are in class.  Kids that sign up because they are genuinely interested in learning karate are more willing to be disciplined.

Finally, it is important to know what teaching philosophy your head instructor subscribes to.   If they are from a school of thought that does not want to 'coddle' the kids then the way you will discipline will be different than an instructor that will use humour or calisthenics to get the kids attention.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2018)

donald1 said:


> I got a question but before I ask I wanna start off by saying for the past two months I've been helping my instructor with an after school program and I have been assisting for almost 2 months now. Apparently the school was looking for an after school program and just happened to have a  bullying problem. Now they have a karate after school program. The first time I went I was a bit overelmed though all and all the experience is interesting. I get that some of these kids are young and just getting out of school but some of these kids just don't know how to act. Can be a real nuisance when some students want to learn while a small few can sometimes cause problems. I've already asked my instructor and got some advice from him and got some good advice but i also wanna ask here to see if anyone here has any tips.
> 
> My first question, what tips would you have for teaching kids?
> 
> Lastly, when a student acts up how do you respond? Do you take there belt? Remove a stripe? ask them to sit down? Also, how many warnings do you give the student beforehand?



Never taught children but I can tell you two things I have noticed watching my youngest train over the years

The TKD school kept thing relatively simply and taught in short burst when teaching young children. THey did not get into complicated techniques, and did thing is shorter burst due to attention span of young children. Also had a paper that they sent home with kids that had to be filled out that had lists of things kids should do around the house, clean room, do homework, etc. and this had to be filled out and signed by the parents. It also had a direct relation to getting a belt (This part I did not agree with at all by the way)

The Aikido school, don't listen, or be disruptive, you are asked to leave the mat. After sitting there for a bit the sempai talks to the child about his or her behavior and they are let back on the mat. If they act up again, they are asked to leave the mat and not allowed back on. If it continues the parents are talked to, if it continues they are ask to leave the dojo. Once saw the head instructor and owner of the dojo kick his own grandchild off the mat for acting up and not listening the Sempai.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Never taught children but I can tell you two things I have noticed watching my youngest train over the years
> 
> The TKD school kept thing relatively simply and taught in short burst when teaching young children. THey did not get into complicated techniques, and did thing is shorter burst due to attention span of young children. Also had a paper that they sent home with kids that had to be filled out that had lists of things kids should do around the house, clean room, do homework, etc. and this had to be filled out and signed by the parents. It also had a direct relation to getting a belt (This part I did not agree with at all by the way)
> 
> The Aikido school, don't listen, or be disruptive, you are asked to leave the mat. After sitting there for a bit the sempai talks to the child about his or her behavior and they are let back on the mat. If they act up again, they are asked to leave the mat and not allowed back on. If it continues the parents are talked to, if it continues they are ask to leave the dojo. Once saw the head instructor and owner of the dojo kick his own grandchild off the mat for acting up and not listening the Sempai.


My approach was much like what you describe from the Aikido school. I never had to kick a kid out - that wasn't my role there - but I was quick to sit one down if they started causing problems, or not following directions. It seemed to work pretty well with the troublesome kids.


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## pgsmith (Nov 2, 2018)

Dealing with kids, especially after school, can be a problem. The thing that worked best for me through my own two as well as a great many Scouts, is that they need some control. In my experience, a great part of kids acting out is because they are constantly told what to do and how to do it. After a full day of this in school, many will rebel even though they aren't meaning to be disruptive. By giving these kids a choice, and so a chance to make their own decisions, you enlist them into what you're teaching rather than simply becoming another in a long list of people telling them what to do.

  The choices don't have to be complex or particularly important, they just have to be something for the kids to own. For example, when one starts acting up, you can ask them personally if they'd rather perform warmup exercises, work on their kata, or help the other students to learn what you're attempting to teach them. Make sure you have a part of the mat designated for those that are working on other things, and you can circle around and check in on them periodically. Make sure they are aware that they can join back into what the rest of the class is learning by letting you know they're ready.

  An alternative is to devise two separate programs for each class such as one program that works on particular kata, and one program that works on particular techniques. Then you can very briefly describe what each program  will be at the start of each class, and allow the kids to decide which they'll work on. Given the fact that it is their decision to work on a particular thing, they'll tend to work harder and take more responsibility for themselves.

  It has been my experience that the less opportunities kids have to make their own decisions in life, the more they tend to act disruptively trying to take back some control, and the less developed their decision making skills are when they need them later in life.


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## JR 137 (Nov 3, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> It has been my experience that the less opportunities kids have to make their own decisions in life, the more they tend to act disruptively trying to take back some control, and the less developed their decision making skills are when they need them later in life.


I’m a school teacher, and my students range from 3 years old to 13 years old, depending on the subject. My physical education classes are 3 year old pre-k through kindergarten (I’ve taught that in a high school too).

Your comment is an excellent one that I haven’t heard before, and is dead on. I wish I heard it put that way when I first started out. 

The opposite is also true, however - the kids who are allowed to make every decision can be equally disruptive for basically the same reason - they want to keep that control.

2 kids, for the opposite reasons immediately stand out while I type this. I know both sets of parents outside of school, so I’ve got a good understanding of their background:

1. Kid who needs to take back some control:
6th grader. His mother is CONSTANTLY telling him what to do. Did I emphasize constantly? And when he doesn’t do what she expects, he’s immediately grounded for a minimum of a week, even for the littlest things. Most often 2-3 weeks. I HATE telling her he did something wrong in my class because I know the consequences will be way out of proportion. How does he act? He tells EVERYONE around him what to do. He tries to tell me how to run my class, and points out every mistake he thinks I’ve made. When he’s proven wrong, he implodes; crying, calling himself stupid, etc. He’s easily the most disruptive kid I have at his grade. Every teacher who has him or has had him agrees. Nothing any teacher has tried has made any difference because everything gets undone by his mother. Being nice, being “mean,” sitting him down and talking privately, consequences, et al have all failed. 

2. Currently in kindergarten. I’ve had him for 3 years now in PE. He’s the oldest of 2 kids, and parents let him do whatever he wants. They always ask him what he wants to do rather than tell him he’s doing something. Everything we do in class, he wants to do something else. And he disrupts everything until he gets his way. Example: yesterday we were playing “zombie tag.” When I told the class this, he raises his hand and says “I don’t like zombie tag. I want to play regular tag.” I tell him nicely that we’re playing zombie tag today. He’s eyes water up, he crosses his arms in front of his chest and sits down right in the middle of the gym. I ignore this (as it’s every time) and tell everyone to run away and start, and he starts screaming and crying. I use my talking to a 5 year old voice and mannerisms and explain why we can’t always play what we want to play to deaf ears. I pick him up and move him to the wall so he doesn’t get run over, and explain that we’re all playing something else today and if he’d like to play he can get up and play whenever he’s ready. He screamed and cried the entire remaining 35 minutes, saying he wants to play regular tag. It’s similar with every game he doesn’t want to play. And when we’re coincidentally playing what he wants to play, there’s still issues - he wants a different ball, different color ball, more than one, etc. He acts this way because he’s never told what to do at home. His father will say “let’s do this” and he’ll say “I want to do that” and his father will do whatever the kid wants. Practically every time. If his father say no, outright no or trying to redirect, he’ll do what he does in my class and get his way within a few minutes. Same for his mother, only it typically takes a bit longer, but not much longer to break her. Me? His tantrums have no effect on me. I got used to it within the first month of having him in my class. It’s like living next to train tracks - you don’t hear the trains go by after a few weeks.

Both kids are at the extreme opposite, yet for all intents and purposes, the end result is the same. And both kids are the most extreme example of it; most kids fall somewhere in between.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 3, 2018)

the one thing i found in teaching kids is that in most children, every problem the child has is a direct result of the parents.  i do not like teaching kids because it breaks my heart to see wonderful potential being soured and destroyed by horrible parents.  for every questionable trait the child has i can look at the parent and say..yup thats where that comes from...
while this may not be the exact answer your looking for,  i would work on "fixing" the parents.  if i were to teach kids in a dojo setting again, i think i would insist from the beginning that parents know that they are part of the childs program and education.  they would be instructed on THEIR  responsibilities if their child is to take classes,,  wash the childs uniform,  fold it and not allow it to be worn to bed as PJ's or stuffed under their pillow....show up on time......insure both they and their child address me in a respectable way (sensei or some such thing)....
basically i would explain to them my plan for their child's education in martial arts and make sure they are on the same page.  consistent  signals are important between both parents but also need to include the sensei if they are putting the child under his tutelage. we can only instill the advertised "confidence, self esteem ect "   if the  parents are on board as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 3, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> the one thing i found in teaching kids is that in most children, every problem the child has is a direct result of the parents.  i do not like teaching kids because it breaks my heart to see wonderful potential being soured and destroyed by horrible parents.  for every questionable trait the child has i can look at the parent and say..yup thats where that comes from...
> while this may not be the exact answer your looking for,  i would work on "fixing" the parents.  if i were to teach kids in a dojo setting again, i think i would insist from the beginning that parents know that they are part of the childs program and education.  they would be instructed on THEIR  responsibilities if their child is to take classes,,  wash the childs uniform,  fold it and not allow it to be worn to bed as PJ's or stuffed under their pillow....show up on time......insure both they and their child address me in a respectable way (sensei or some such thing)....
> basically i would explain to them my plan for their child's education in martial arts and make sure they are on the same page.  consistent  signals are important between both parents but also need to include the sensei if they are putting the child under his tutelage. we can only instill the advertised "confidence, self esteem ect "   if the  parents are on board as well.


This is one of the reasons I don’t like teaching kids. I want to coach the parents.


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## pgsmith (Nov 5, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> The opposite is also true, however - the kids who are allowed to make every decision can be equally disruptive for basically the same reason - they want to keep that control.


  Absolutely agree, I've dealt with those types also. The problem, as I see it, in that case is that they are given *too much* control. Nobody is born with a natural ability to make good decisions. It is something we all have to learn. Some kids are better at it than other due to environment, but they all have to learn. Neither extreme that you mentioned allows the child to properly learn how to make good decisions. Unfortunately, there is nothing out there that ensures that parents learn how to properly teach their children so it ends up falling on educators and volunteers for the most part.


			
				gpseymour said:
			
		

> This is one of the reasons I don’t like teaching kids. I want to coach the parents.



  When I was in Scouting, I felt like I spent almost as much time teaching parents as I did teaching the kids.


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## donald1 (Oct 21, 2019)

I haven't asked any questions here in a while... just 1 question today. I like hearing people's opinions.  What aspect of martial arts do you like doing the most? Sparing, Empty hand forms, Weapon forms, Basic stretches, Or something I didn't mention?

Personally at this point in my training I like the weapon forms the most. Its interesting learning weapons, seeing how different weapons are used, and learning the history behind them if possible.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 22, 2019)

Nice, love it .

Tricky one as I love alot about training...

Big fan of kata, even a strong basics session, sparring I do enjoy but the others trump it.

Also the philosophy and spiritual aspects of MA I'm very into.

Strangely I've never been interested in weapons at all! And never loved grapply/takedown work!


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## W.Bridges (Oct 23, 2019)

My favorite would have to be self-defense and sparring. Forms/patterns are my least favorite thing to do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2019)

donald1 said:


> I haven't asked any questions here in a while... just 1 question today. I like hearing people's opinions.  What aspect of martial arts do you like doing the most? Sparing, Empty hand forms, Weapon forms, Basic stretches, Or something I didn't mention?
> 
> Personally at this point in my training I like the weapon forms the most. Its interesting learning weapons, seeing how different weapons are used, and learning the history behind them if possible.


That varies by day, for me. Sometimes I'm more cerebral and want to tinker with a problem. Other times, I want to work hard and sweat.


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## dvcochran (Oct 23, 2019)

Now a days forms and SD practice would run a very close race.


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## Hanshi (Oct 24, 2019)

Why does an answer need to be so specific in the first place?  I never get anymore specific  than just answering "karate, aikido, jiu jutsu, etc.  As posted previously martial arts is much too convoluted to truly sift out much more than that.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 25, 2019)

Hanshi said:


> Why does an answer need to be so specific in the first place?  I never get anymore specific  than just answering "karate, aikido, jiu jutsu, etc.  As posted previously martial arts is much too convoluted to truly sift out much more than that.



It doesn't need to be. But it's a forum, and it encourages interesting and engaging discussion. It's okay to enjoy certain aspects more than others


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## donald1 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hanshi said:


> Why does an answer need to be so specific in the first place?  I never get anymore specific  than just answering "karate, aikido, jiu jutsu, etc.  As posted previously martial arts is much too convoluted to truly sift out much more than that.


You like all aspects of the styles equally? That's fair enough. Personally for me sometimes there are certain aspects within martial arts that interest me more than other aspects ,and of course just because I'm more interested in one than the others doesn't mean I'm not interested in them. I'm just more excited about certain aspects... in my case Its weapon forms.


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## JP3 (Oct 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That varies by day, for me. Sometimes I'm more cerebral and want to tinker with a problem. Other times, I want to work hard and sweat.


Generally, I'd say that, from the beginning way back in the dawn of my personal Stone Age, I've always enjoyed the instructive, playful, semi-competitive format of sparring the most. I couldn't get enough of it. Point sparring, light-to-medium impact sparring, rolling, randori… that's my thing I enjoy most in class. So, because I enjoy it the most, I focus on it the most, my mental energy is tightly focused and I don't get distracted, so I think I get the most out of that.

   Of course, I have to put in the work figuring things out to Do while sparring, but it's the sparring in its many aspects I enjoy the most.


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