# Flag Burner Duct-Taped to Flagpole



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2009)

http://www.military.com/news/article/flag-burner-pilloried-by-veterans.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS



> Flag Burner Pilloried by Veterans
> September 28, 2009
> Times Union, Albany, N.Y.
> 
> ...


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## crushing (Sep 28, 2009)

Besides the theft, vandalism, flag desecration and vigilantism.

Is it common to fly these flags again?  At my local VFW Post we have a flag that was flown over troops overseas and presented to our Post, but we have it in a case on display in the canteen.  Depending on the weather, flags can get pretty beat up in short order flying outside.


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## harlan (Sep 28, 2009)

Buzz words: public pillory, desecration, hunted down, villagers.

Thought I was reading early American fiction for a minute.


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## MA-Caver (Sep 28, 2009)

harlan said:


> Buzz words: public pillory, desecration, hunted down, villagers.
> 
> Thought I was reading early American fiction for a minute.


However it was described... it (the punishment) was deserved!


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## Errant108 (Sep 28, 2009)

I take it that the flag he burned was not his property?


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## Steve (Sep 28, 2009)

As a veteran, I don't like to see the flag disrespected, but he should be punished for vandalism... not for burning the flag.  This sort of vigilantism just doesn't seem right to me.

It also kills me how people wave the flag to appear patriotic but know next to nothing about flag etiquette (which, bottom line, is what it is. Not law. Not dogma. Etiquette). At rallies for both sides (such as the recent 9/12 rally in DC), there are always flags waved vigorously then casually thrown away at the end of the day. People buy flags to put on their car windows, and then leave them there as they get rained on, shredded from the wind and faded from the sun. People leave their flags out at night without lights. It's really kind of ridiculous and rude, but that's about it. In cases like this, where someone vandalizes someone else's property, it's illegal. Otherwise, it's just ignorant.

In my opinion.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> As a veteran, I don't like to see the flag disrespected, but he should be punished for vandalism... not for burning the flag.  This sort of vigilantism just doesn't seem right to me.
> 
> It also kills me how people wave the flag to appear patriotic but know next to nothing about flag etiquette (which, bottom line, is what it is. Not law. Not dogma. Etiquette). At rallies for both sides (such as the recent 9/12 rally in DC), there are always flags waved vigorously then casually thrown away at the end of the day. People buy flags to put on their car windows, and then leave them there as they get rained on, shredded from the wind and faded from the sun. People leave their flags out at night without lights. It's really kind of ridiculous and rude, but that's about it. In cases like this, where someone vandalizes someone else's property, it's illegal. Otherwise, it's just ignorant.
> 
> In my opinion.



Well said.

I once noticed a very tattered flag flying over a local home audio store and called them on the phone. The manager said he'd inform the owner.  The very next day there was a nice new flag flying over the building.  That was nice - and unexpected.

As a member of the American Legion, I have been well-indoctrinated on proper flag etiquette.  Wish more people cared enough about it to bother.  Seems many are 'patriotic' as long as it's not any particular effort for them to be so.


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## Steve (Sep 28, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well said.
> 
> I once noticed a very tattered flag flying over a local home audio store and called them on the phone. The manager said he'd inform the owner. The very next day there was a nice new flag flying over the building. That was nice - and unexpected.
> 
> As a member of the American Legion, I have been well-indoctrinated on proper flag etiquette. Wish more people cared enough about it to bother. Seems many are 'patriotic' as long as it's not any particular effort for them to be so.


It's funny how it gets around, too. I bet if you looked at the official portrait photos of the top executives in the federal government, you'd find several who are seated on the wrong side of the flag. It's considered very bad form to sit for a portrait with the American flag on your left side.

Edit:  Just to add, this is considered wrong, too, but it's more of an unnofficial rule:  The stripes should run down and to the right as you view it.  






Like this:


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## Omar B (Sep 28, 2009)

He's lucky that's all he got if you ask me.  But it's common for people not to know flag etiquette.  In college the place I worked had a day care next door and the lady who owned it put up a flag in the window.  Problem was, the flag was backwards, I had to let her know that was a sing of distress and she needs to change it.  Not too long after I said it some cops who usually hang out at where I work came by and went in and fixed it for her.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2009)

Omar B said:


> He's lucky that's all he got if you ask me.  But it's common for people not to know flag etiquette.  In college the place I worked had a day care next door and the lady who owned it put up a flag in the window.  Problem was, the flag was backwards, I had to let her know that was a sing of distress and she needs to change it.  Not too long after I said it some cops who usually hang out at where I work came by and went in and fixed it for her.



Upside down is the nautical sign of distress, rather than backwards.  However, you still did good.  Some folks also use flags as curtains, which isn't really kosher.  And we've had the discussion about US flag patches on athletic uniforms such as martial arts gi's.  Understandable patriotism, but technically a no-no.


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## Omar B (Sep 28, 2009)

Person across the street from me put up one of the hugest flags I've ever seen one July 4th, it was great ... then it stayed up for months, night and day, in the weather and even got snagged on an electrical wire.  Amateurs.


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## Archangel M (Sep 28, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> It's funny how it gets around, too. I bet if you looked at the official portrait photos of the top executives in the federal government, you'd find several who are seated on the wrong side of the flag. It's considered very bad form to sit for a portrait with the American flag on your left side.
> 
> Edit:  Just to add, this is considered wrong, too, but it's more of an unnofficial rule:  The stripes should run down and to the right as you view it.
> 
> ...



Err.."to the left side"? Do you mean to the viewer or the subject? The flag should be to the left of a person facing you. I was always taught that the flag is like a squad leader in a military formation if you were facing the platoon. Senior man to the left. As to the stripes, that is typically for when the flag is displayed hung from a wall. Its not really adhered to when attached to a standard.

If you are implying that those photos are wrong. I think you are wrong.

http://www.simmieknox.com/official/clinton2.htm


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## crushing (Sep 28, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Err.."to the left side"? Do you mean to the viewer or the subject? The flag should be to the left of a person facing you. I was always taught that the flag is like a squad leader in a military formation if you were facing the platoon. Senior man to the left. As to the stripes, that is typically for when the flag is displayed hung from a wall. Its not really adhered to when attached to a standard.
> 
> If you are implying that those photos are wrong. I think you are wrong.
> 
> http://www.simmieknox.com/official/clinton2.htm


 
I initially misread Steve's post too and had a somewhat similar response, but also including the Federal Code: Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7, Part (k).   You may want to look again more carefully at what he posted.  I'm glad I did!  ;-)


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## Archangel M (Sep 28, 2009)

What about it?

 (k) When used on a speaker's platform, the flag, if displayed
    flat, should be displayed above and behind the speaker. When
    displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag
    of the United States of America should hold the position of
    superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the
    position of honor *at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces
    the audience.* _(HIS right - YOUR left)_ Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the
    left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience _("other flag" meaning as in a State flag or otherwise)_.

All those photos have the flag on the SUBJECTS RIGHT.

*Ahhh..OK sorry Steve I get it. You are showing the photos as examples of how the stripes should run and not as examples of wrong placement.

Got it.*


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 28, 2009)

In this particular case, I've no problem with how it was handled.


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## Omar B (Sep 28, 2009)

It's as simple as printing a little sheet of paper in the package with the flag that contains all the rules.  They just sell 'em in a plastic bag for the most part ... yes, some dumb people actually need flag instructions.


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## Steve (Sep 28, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Err.."to the left side"?


I mean to the person's left. Sitting to the right of the flag. All of the photos you've displayed correctly have the subjects sitting with the flag to their right hand.





> As to the stripes, that is typically for when the flag is displayed hung from a wall. Its not really adhered to when attached to a standard.


It's considered bad form to have the stripes running away. It's not a "rule" but is considered proper etiquette in the military as well as federal government, particularly in official portraits. 

Look at the stripes in the pictures you posted, as well as the ones for Bush and Cheney that I posted. Now look at the first picture I posted. THAT one isn't... wrong... but it's not right, either. It would be considered better form to position the flag so that the stripes run from left to right as viewed. Does that make sense? Believe me. I'm not wrong on this, although I might not be explaining myself clearly.

Edit: Just read the rest and it looks like, while I wasn't clear, it all got figured out. 
Edit 2:  If you've got a few minutes, do a Google image search for _official portrait federal. _   What's his name above is pretty much the only one whose stripes run right to left, away from him.  As I said, it's not a rule, but it's a very widely held convention.


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## shesulsa (Sep 28, 2009)

Omar B said:


> It's as simple as printing a little sheet of paper in the package with the flag that contains all the rules.  They just sell 'em in a plastic bag for the most part ... yes, some dumb people actually need flag instructions.



People read instructions?


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## Archangel M (Sep 28, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Edit: Just read the rest and it looks like, while I wasn't clear, it all got figured out.
> Edit 2:  If you've got a few minutes, do a Google image search for _official portrait federal. _   What's his name above is pretty much the only one whose stripes run right to left, away from him.  As I said, it's not a rule, but it's a very widely held convention.



Just a little "signal error". I am now five by five.


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## Gordon Nore (Sep 28, 2009)

> The 21-year-old appeared intoxicated when he entered the VFW post on the day of the alleged act, Normile said. When the man was refused service for not having a proper ID, he ran out in a fit of anger. He cut the rope of the flag, which had once flown over troops in Iraq, and ignited it with a cigarette lighter.



I assume the VFW post serves liquor, as they do at Canadian Legion halls. So if I read this right, he burned the flag, which was not his property, because he was refused service while intoxicated and lacking ID.

I'd be curious to know what he would have faced legally, if not civilly, for destruction of property, etc, had the VFW turned him over to the police in what the article describes as a patriotic town.

Personally, I'm not fond of vigilantism, but I suspect he may have gotten away more easily than if this had gone through channels.


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 28, 2009)

IMO the intoxicated undesirable got off way too easy.

BUT--and this is the part people are missing--he CHOSE the flagpole punishment in place of facing charges, no one "strung him up".


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## grydth (Sep 28, 2009)

Before anyone cheers on the justice done, happy endings, got what he deserved, etc, etc.......note the location. Yep, this happened, not in Texas, but in the Peoples Republic of New York.

Which means...... How will this story _*really *_end?

Hints: What is the travel time from the ACLU office in NYC to Happy Valley?
         Who Wants to be a Millionaire?


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## d1jinx (Sep 28, 2009)

My favorite punishment for flag burning is in a video.  the idiot who sets an american flag on fire, then he explodes on fire, running and screaming..... idiot got what he deserved.


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