# Understanding Wing Chun's Centre Line



## Jaz (Mar 13, 2022)

Hi Everyone, I made this video about three ways that the Centre Line Theory can be understood. I talk about it as the following:

A) a target zone.
B) the shortest distance between your attacking tool and the target.
C) a method of getting to a position whereby your opponent can offer the least resistance - with the inclusion of the Centre Line being like a plumb line through the centre of the body.

These ways of understanding it deal with the doctrine of assuming that the opponent is bigger, faster and stronger than you.
Do you know or use any other ways to understand it and apply to Wing Chun? If you want to check out the video, here's the link:


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 13, 2022)

I'm curious to see what others say.  I don't train Wing Chung so my center line concept of different.


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## wckf92 (Mar 13, 2022)

Jaz said:


> Hi Everyone, I made this video about three ways that the Centre Line Theory can be understood. I talk about it as the following:
> 
> A) a target zone.
> B) the shortest distance between your attacking tool and the target.
> ...



Hi Jaz. Welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting.

My two cents regarding centerline:
1) I cover & protect mine
2) I attack his
3)...using a weapon that takes the most direct path to the target
4) 1, 2, and 3 ideally take place at the same time given the circumstances.


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## Eric_H (Mar 13, 2022)

The most common answers regarding centerline are "shortest distance from A to B" or "the line running down the middle of the body".

For Hung Fa Yi, we have 3 elements:
* Self Centerline (Body alignment)
* Kiu Sao centerline (targeting)
* Energy centerline (balanced contact)

You can only have the third piece after contact, the first two are possible from Bai Jong. 

For us, centerline is the driving difference of WC vs other kung fu. No centerline = no wing chun.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2022)

I like to train 2 different ways. To protect my centerline from

1. inside out - you occupy the centerline; your opponent has to go around it. You then separate his arms away from his head (separate hands strategy).
2. outside in - you invite your opponent to attack your centerline, you then attack his attacking arm (anti-missile strategy).


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## Jaz (Mar 13, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Hi Jaz. Welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting.
> 
> My two cents regarding centerline:
> 1) I cover & protect mine
> ...


Good point about covering and protecting your centre line, whilst attacking your opponent's. Usually, people see Wing Chun as attacking and defending, in terms of applying the techniques - i.e. deflecting a punch, whilst delivering your own strike. Looking at this in terms of defending and attacking the Centre line brings about the bigger picture. Nice one.


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## geezer (Mar 14, 2022)

I genuinely liked the video, and it featured an array of really good WC and WT people ...but as far as communicating what centerline theory is about, all I heard was _blah blah blah _while I was enjoying the visuals. No worries though. It's not your fault I have a really short attention span. 

Also, maybe part of the problem is that it's pretty tough to verbally explain centerline theory in a way that covers all WC branches and lineages. And, even within a single lineage a verbal explanation alone won't cut it. It's a lot easier to explain while physically demonstrating so the student can hear, see and feel what you are talking about. And even then it takes a while.

Anyway thanks for posting the clip!


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## Jaz (Mar 15, 2022)

geezer said:


> I genuinely liked the video, and it featured an array of really good WC and WT people ...but as far as communicating what centerline theory is about, all I heard was _blah blah blah _while I was enjoying the visuals. No worries though. It's not your fault I have a really short attention span.
> 
> Also, maybe part of the problem is that it's pretty tough to verbally explain centerline theory in a way that covers all WC branches and lineages. And, even within a single lineage a verbal explanation alone won't cut it. It's a lot easier to explain while physically demonstrating so the student can hear, see and feel what you are talking about. And even then it takes a while.
> 
> Anyway thanks for posting the clip!


Oh no!!! Is that how I came across 🤦🏽‍♂️😂!!! I guess that it must be difficult to listen to someone talk at length about a topic - especially if they have a droney voice like mine! It definitely is difficult to explain the various ways of understanding the centre line theory. Feeling the explanation will always be way better than listening to it. Thanks for the feedback!


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## Martial D (Mar 15, 2022)

It's really just mechanics. When the elbow is on center the arm is both very hard to collapse, and at the optimal point to drive forward for the wingchun punch. From there you can build on theory such as angle of attack and alignment and strategies to get to advantageous position.


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## geezer (Mar 15, 2022)

Martial D said:


> It's really just mechanics...


Agreed, and yet sometimes the simplest things can be the hardest to get across.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 15, 2022)

Eric_H said:


> No centerline = no wing chun.


If we look at from the general MA point of view,

- You can use a circular punch to knock down a straight punch.
- You can't use a straight punch to knock down a circular punch.

The circular punch has physical natural advantage over the straight punch (because it covers a space and not just a line).

When you use straight punches, how do you deal with your opponent's circular punches that come around your centerline?

In the following clip, the staff is similar to the circular punch. The spear is similar to the straight punch. The staff can attack in 2 dimensions. The spear can only attack in 1 dimension.

When you stab your spear at your opponent's chest, if your opponent blocks it, he then swings his staff to hit on the side of your head, how to you deal with it? If you try to use spear to block his staff attack, his staff swinging force may knock your spear down.


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## wckf92 (Mar 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we look at from the general MA point of view,
> 
> - You can use a circular punch to knock down a straight punch.
> - You can't use a straight punch to knock down a circular punch.
> ...



Simple, you move.


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## Martial D (Mar 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we look at from the general MA point of view,
> 
> - You can use a circular punch to knock down a straight punch.
> - You can't use a straight punch to knock down a circular punch.
> ...


The thing about that though is the straight punch is much faster. Multiply that with the fact that there is no reaction time for the initiator and you are left needing to be orders of magnitude faster than the other guy to knock down a straight punch with a circular one. Very very low percentage.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we look at from the general MA point of view,
> 
> - You can use a circular punch to knock down a straight punch.
> - You can't use a straight punch to knock down a circular punch.
> ...


I understand the point you are attempting to make, but I believe your example is not accurate.  Both staff and spear have a rich body of techniques that include thrusts, swings, battering strikes, circular moves, etc.  They are both spherical in their possibilities.  

They said, straight punch can attack the root of a circular punch at the shoulder, and disrupt the circular punch before it lands.  Lots of possibilities for either side of the argument.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 15, 2022)

Martial D said:


> The thing about that though is the straight punch is much faster. Multiply that with the fact that there is no reaction time for the initiator and you are left needing to be orders of magnitude faster than the other guy to knock down a straight punch with a circular one. Very very low percentage.


It depends on how large that your circular punch is. If you use small circle, your circular punch can be as fast as your straight punch.

This is why the spear uses small circle to defect opponent's spear attack.

The spear has only 3 techniques.

- small counter clockwise circle,
- small clockwise circle,
- stab.

If you think the straight line is always faster than the circle, the ancient spear fighting record showed that the spear small circle could deflect the straight line attack.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 15, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Both staff and spear have a rich body of techniques that include thrusts, swings, battering strikes, circular moves, etc.  They are both spherical in their possibilities.


Again, the spear only has 3 techniques. All the other techniques came from the staff technique.

Both WC system and spear fight are very similar. Both emphasizes on the straight-line attack. The spear has small circular moves used for defense, IMO, the WC system should have it too.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again, the spear only has 3 techniques. All the other techniques came from the staff technique.
> 
> Both WC system and spear fight are very similar. Both emphasizes on the straight-line attack. The spear has small circular moves used for defense, IMO, the WC system should have it too.


Do you believe this? My spear has far more than three techniques.  And if other techniques came from staff, so what?  If they work with spear, then they enrich spear.  The spear is very versatile.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 15, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you believe this? My spear has far more than three techniques.  And if other techniques came from staff, so what?  If they work with spear, then they enrich spear.  The spear is very versatile.


You have just made my point. There exists no pure straight-line attack weapon. Even a straight-line attack weapon should also include circular attack/defense movement.

In other words, as a fighting system, straight line attack by itself is not enough.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 15, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you believe this? My spear has far more than three techniques.


This is why in CMA, the staff training is always before the spear training.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The main purpose of the spear weapon is to use the spear head to stab. Of course, you can use both ends to swing, but that's not the main purpose of the spear weapon.
> 
> You can use the other end of your dagger to hit on your opponent's chest. But that's not the main function of that dagger.


The main purpose of a spear is to kill the enemy.  It can be done in many ways.  If you can only see the spear point, you miss all the other possibilities.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why in CMA, the staff training is always before the spear training.


I don’t think it needs to be.  

The spear is a foot soldier’s weapon.  It was easy and quick to train (relatively speaking).  It was cheap to make, and easy to arm a lot of guys with it.  Conscripts were brought in and given a spear, then drilled in its use.  I do not believe they were taught staff first, if they were meant to fill the ranks of spearmen.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2022)

geezer said:


> Agreed, and yet sometimes the simplest things can be the hardest to get across.



Especially for me who quite often wants to be off center.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2022)

Circular punches beach straight punches when the circular path interrupts the linear path.


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## wckf92 (Mar 16, 2022)

@Jaz  Sorry your thread got hijacked. It only took 2 pages for us to drift from WC's centerline to spears and staffs.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> @Jaz  Sorry your thread got hijacked. It only took 2 pages for us to drift from WC's centerline to spears and staffs.


Next time start with spears so we'll end up with WC center line.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Circular punches beach straight punches when the circular path interrupts the linear path.


Is most Wing Chun trapping linear or circular?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> @Jaz  Sorry your thread got hijacked. It only took 2 pages for us to drift from WC's centerline to spears and staffs.


You may choose the spear as your weapon. But you don't know what weapon that your opponent may use.

When you try to use your spear to stab a hole through your opponent's chest, your opponent also tries to use his Guan Dao to cut your head off. Who will win?

Through ancient history, we can see sometime spear won against Guan Dao. Other time we see Guan Dao won against spear. When you train spear, do you also train how to deal with your opponent's Guan Dao (or the other way around)?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Simple, you move.


Dodging will work. But should there be other options?


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## wckf92 (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may choose the spear as your weapon. But you don't know what weapon that your opponent may use.
> 
> When you try to use your spear to stab a hole through your opponent's chest, your opponent also tries to use his Guan Dao to cut your head off. Who will win?
> 
> ...



You completely missed the point dude. If you want to discuss spear vs kwan dao then start your own thread instead of derailing this one.


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## wckf92 (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Dodging will work. But should there be other options?



I stated "move" because in your example you said the other guy moved. Just pointing out that you attempted to create a scenario by saying Person A could move out of the way yet Person B should just stand there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> You completely missed the point dude. If you want to discuss spear vs kwan dao then start your own thread instead of derailing this one.


Instead of discussing "spear vs. Guan Dao", will it make you to feel better if we discuss "straight punch vs. circular punch"?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> I stated "move" because in your example you said the other guy moved. Just pointing out that you attempted to create a scenario by saying Person A could move out of the way yet Person B should just stand there.


This is why I use the spear vs. Guan Dao example. You can use Guan Dao to block spear. You don't always need to dodge.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may choose the spear as your weapon. But you don't know what weapon that your opponent may use.


Sure you do. Unless they're using a handgun, there's not a lot in the way of concealable weapons that would be a good choice against a spear.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you try to use your spear to stab a hole through your opponent's chest, your opponent also tries to use his Guan Dao to cut your head off. Who will win?


I will. Or they will. Or we both will. Or neither.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> Through ancient history, we can see sometime spear won against Guan Dao. Other time we see Guan Dao won against spear. When you train spear, do you also train how to deal with your opponent's Guan Dao (or the other way around)?


When you train block, parry, trap, evade, riposte, etc, it doesn't really matter if they're trying to poke you with a spear, a sword, or their index finger.


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## wckf92 (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I use the spear vs. Guan Dao example. You can use Guan Dao to block spear. You don't always need to dodge.



Hard to comment because I don't know anything about spear or Guan Dao. But WC (and WC pole) contain linear and non-linear motions. So in theory I am agreeing with you and always have agreed with you on this point you bring up every so often about linear vs non-linear. 
Straight can defeat curved, and curved can defeat straight. 
In your clip/gif...the spear dude could use straight to defeat Gaun Dao guy as Guan Dao guy is pulling his weapon back.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> When you train block, parry, trap, evade, riposte, etc, it doesn't really matter if they're trying to poke you with a spear, a sword, or their index finger.


All I'm trying to say is the WC centerline principle should include "linear vs non-linear".


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## wckf92 (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All I'm trying to say is the WC centerline principle should include "linear vs non-linear".



WC protects center both ways. 
Linear: It protects center in this way by the entire system being focused on conditioning our behavior to "primarily" favor being on center, attacking on center, etc. 
Non-linear: Life is not always as perfect as we'd like, same goes for fighting...so WC contains ideas that protect center if we are not there or need to return to center.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Hard to comment because I don't know anything about spear or Guan Dao. But WC (and WC pole) contain linear and non-linear motions. So in theory I am agreeing with you and always have agreed with you on this point you bring up every so often about linear vs non-linear.
> Straight can defeat curved, and curved can defeat straight.
> In your clip/gif...the spear dude could use straight to defeat Gaun Dao guy as Guan Dao guy is pulling his weapon back.


Thanks for agreeing with me on linear vs. non-linear.

In the past many years, I have spent almost all my training time in "linear vs non-linear". I had tested my strategy against many people (such as boxers). My test was simple, I would ask my opponent to throw

- 20 straight punches, I then try to use my circular punches to deal with it.
- 20 circular punches, I then try to use my straight punch to deal with it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Non-linear: Life is not always as perfect as we'd like, same goes for fighting...so WC contains ideas that protect center if we are not there or need to return to center.


One of Ip Men's students (Jeffery Law) told me that Ip Men once taught his students to use right Tan Shou to block a right hook punch. Does that violate the WC centerline principle in your opinion?


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## wckf92 (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One of Ip Men's students told me that Ip Men once taught his students to use right Fu Shou to block a right hook punch. Does that violate the WC centerline principle in your opinion?



If it protected my centerline, then no. But, that seems very strange to use a right fook sau vs right hook. I would never use that. Your (Yip Man's) choice would be chasing hands in my opinion.


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## Martial D (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It depends on how large that your circular punch is. If you use small circle, your circular punch can be as fast as your straight punch.
> 
> This is why the spear uses small circle to defect opponent's spear attack.
> 
> ...


Sure. History also shows that punching punches out of the air pretty much never happens. And we have a much larger sample size.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> If it protected my centerline, then no. But, that seems very strange to use a right fook sau vs right hook. I would never use that. Your (Yip Man's) choice would be chasing hands in my opinion.


In one Hong Kong tournament, a CLF guy threw a right hook punch at a WC guy. The WC guy used left Tan Shou to block it. The right hook knocked down the left Tan Shou and still hit on the WC guy's head. The WC student went back and asked Ip Men. That was Ip Men's answer to him.

This is why I was interested in the question, "Besides dodging, what's a WC guy's solution to deal with a hook punch?"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Sure. History also shows that punching punches out of the air pretty much never happens.


That's called metal strategy - to use knife to cut through wood. The purpose is to hurt your opponent's arm.


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## wckf92 (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In one Hong Kong tournament, a CLF guy threw a right hook punch at a WC guy. The WC guy used left Tan Shou to block it. The right hook knocked down the left Tan Shou and still hit on the WC guy's head. The WC student went back and asked Ip Men. That was Ip Men's answer to him.
> 
> This is why I was interested in the question, "Besides dodging, what's a WC guy's solution to deal with a hook punch?"



Hmmm...interesting. I would say it is not the fault of the Tan Sau...but of the practitioner.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 16, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Hmmm...interesting. I would say it is not the fault of the Tan Sau...but of the practitioner.


That is usually the case.  To think there is a specific answer to a specific attack is erroneous.  It depends on circumstances and the skill of the person.  There could be many good solutions and many bad ones and which is which could also depend on the person.  

This isn’t an input-output box.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> It depends on circumstances and the skill of the person.  There could be many good solutions and many bad ones and which is which could also depend on the person.


If A uses boxing guard (or left WC Tan Shou), do you think B's right hook punch can knock down A's left arm and still hit on A's head?

I just don't think A's body structure is strong enough to handle that heavy swing.

I have tested this over and over myself. My testing result strongly support my conclusion - One may think he can use his left arm to stop a full body rotation right hook punch, the reality is he can't.


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## wckf92 (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If A uses boxing guard (or left WC Tan Shou), do you think B's right hook punch can knock down A's left arm and still hit on A's head?
> 
> I just don't think A's body structure is strong enough to handle that heavy swing.
> 
> ...



I have never had any issues with Tan sau being able to withstand heavy hooks. So my results obviously differ from your results. So perhaps it is the individual?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If A uses boxing guard (or left WC Tan Shou), do you think B's right hook punch can knock down A's left arm and still hit on A's head?
> 
> I just don't think A's body structure is strong enough to handle that heavy swing.
> 
> ...


I think it depends.  How powerful are A and B?  How good are they at what they do?  Are they really on their game today, or are they having trouble pulling it together?  Didn’t eat breakfast today?  Didn’t sleep well last night?  I think it’s impossible to say fully yes or no.  Your test results may be reliable for you.  Your data is valid and can be used by others to help them evaluate.  But I really think it depends.


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## Martial D (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's called metal strategy - to use knife to cut through wood. The purpose is to hurt your opponent's arm.


I get why you would do it if it worked. If you had some magic power that put the other guy into slow motion while you still moved at full speed it would definitely be worth exploring.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

Martial D said:


> I get why you would do it if it worked. If you had some magic power that put the other guy into slow motion while you still moved at full speed it would definitely be worth exploring.


Have you ever accidently roundhouse kick and hit on your opponent's sharp elbow joint? I have. It was not pleasant.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you ever accidently roundhouse kick and hit on your opponent's sharp elbow joint? I have. It was not pleasant.


Of course. And sometimes that really sucks for the kicker. On the other hand, sometimes it really sucks for the kickee.


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## Martial D (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you ever accidently roundhouse kick and hit on your opponent's sharp elbow joint? I have. It was not pleasant.


Well yes. Many times.

But I'm not sure how that relates to the feasibility of punching punches out of the air.

I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt to have your arm punched while you are punching. I'm sure it would. It's not something I've ever experienced or seen happen though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Well yes. Many times.
> 
> But I'm not sure how that relates to the feasibility of punching punches out of the air.
> 
> I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt to have your arm punched while you are punching. I'm sure it would. It's not something I've ever experienced or seen happen though.


When 2 arms hit against each other, whoever has tough arm will win. In order to apply the metal strategy, some serious training will be needed. Nothing will come for free.


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Especially for me who quite often wants to be off center.


I like that! 

Of course if you don't know where "center" is ...how can you effectively off-line and get that angle?


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2022)

Martial D said:


> _Well yes. Many ti_mes.
> 
> But I'm not sure how that relates to the feasibility of punching punches out of the air.
> 
> I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt to have your arm punched while you are punching. I'm sure it would. It's not something I've ever experienced or seen happen though.


Punching at your opponent's punches??? Well, wouldn't most fighters _avoid _that?

1. If you have boxing gloves on, you couldn't depend on significantly damaging your opponent's fist or arm, so better to focus on the main targets, right?

2. or, if you _don't_ have gloves on: 1. You might connect fist to fist or fist to elbow ...and that's risking breaking your hand.

3. Also, while you're targeting hands and arms which are small, fast targets, the other guy is targeting bigger, higher percentage targets close to the center of mass. That's why in WC we say "Don't chase hands!" Works for boxers and shooters too.


Now in self-defense oriented arts like _Eskrima_ where you might be holding a fist-load, palm-stick, a small metal flashlight, or even a cell phone, not to mention knives, etc. the equation changes completely. 

If I have something like a hard, heavy _palm-stick_, I would definitely try to hit my opponent's hands on the way in.


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If A uses boxing guard (or left WC Tan Shou), do you think B's right hook punch can knock down A's left arm and still hit on A's head?
> I just don't think A's body structure is strong enough to handle that heavy swing.
> I have tested this over and over myself. My testing result strongly support my conclusion - One may think he can use his left arm to stop a full body rotation right hook punch, the reality is he can't.


John, I really don't know any good WC/WT/ VT people who advocate wading into a strong hook punch and believe that tan-da sau will automatically take care of everything! 

In WC boxing, like all boxing,  distance, position, timing ...and yes, even dodging are all part of the reality of a fight.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Especially for me who quite often wants to be off center.


This is me all day.  I'm more than happy to be off the center line.  I don't try to defend it like Wing Chun does.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All I'm trying to say is the WC centerline principle should include "linear vs non-linear".


I agree with everything but the Wing Chun part lol.  I'm more than happy for them to stay linear.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> This isn’t an input-output box.


Depends on the approach.  There are somethings you can do that will trigger an expected movement in your opponent that you can capitalize on.  It's pretty consistent and reliable.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When 2 arms hit against each other, whoever has tough arm will win. In order to apply the metal strategy, some serious training will be needed. Nothing will come for free.


I would hate to train on that tree.  Too rough for me lol.  I need smooth bark.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Depends on the approach.  There are somethings you can do that will trigger an expected movement in your opponent that you can capitalize on.  It's pretty consistent and reliable.


Sometimes, and it depends.  I wouldn’t bet my life on it.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is me all day.  I'm more than happy to be off the center line.  I don't try to defend it like Wing Chun does.


Who are we to speak for all Wing Chun? 

You said before, you've never even trained it.  But based on your training, that's not entirely accurate.

I think you know a little Wing Chun, but don't know it.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I was interested in the question, "Besides dodging, what's a WC guy's solution to deal with a hook punch?"


Aside from *dodging*, which is a pretty effective defensive tactic, Wing Chun contains a number of different, relatively orthodox boxing guards that cover the sides of the head.

Crane and Dragon styles are well known for this sort of thing, covering the head.  In the literature it's often referred to as a Crane's wing or a Dragon's limb, often accompanied by howling techniques, and fierce elbow strikes.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Who are we to speak for all Wing Chun?
> 
> You said before, you've never even trained it.  But based on your training, that's not entirely accurate.
> 
> I think you know a little Wing Chun, but don't know it.


Me know Wing Chun ewww. Ha ha.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Who are we to speak for all Wing Chun?
> 
> You said before, you've never even trained it.  But based on your training, that's not entirely accurate.
> 
> I think you know a little Wing Chun, but don't know it.



I don't think you need to speak for wing change to discuss centerline theory.

I mean it is either a concept that works or it is one that doesn't.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I don't think you need to speak for wing change to discuss centerline theory.
> 
> I mean it is either a concept that works or it is one that doesn't.


Hung Kuen has, maybe seven center lines, Bagua has eight.  Wing Chun has one.  But really, there are no center lines.  That's the big secret.  Lines are important when learning how to do something, once it comes time to use it, hopefully you're not thinking geometry.  That's what "it hits all by itself means.

When Anderson Silva KO'd Tito Ortiz in boxing, he credited Wing Chun.  Of course, Tito had just just offended both Bruce Lee AND the Shaolin, so he had it coming.









						Tito Ortiz ready to deal with Anderson Silva’s ‘Wing Chun, Bruce Lee bullsh*t’
					

Tito Ortiz will be competing 10 pounds lighter than he did in his UFC career when he boxes Anderson Silva at Triller Fight Club this Saturday in Hollywood, Fla.




					www.mmafighting.com


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Me know Wing Chun ewww. Ha ha.


What I meant was a senior Jow Ga trainee probably knows 98% of what's in Wing Chun, even if they don't realize it.

Now think of the opposite, imagine a Wing Chun trainee who spends some time in Gong Ji Bo.  Limitless new possibilities.

Here's n center line observation about Wing Chun, ever notice what's common between the Snake and Crane styles?  The Crane has two weak legs, the snake is basically one long leg.  This makes both vulnerable to grappling animal styles like Tiger and Dragon.

We've all seen that, the single leg demolishing Snake-Crane fighters who forgot (or more likely never learned) their Dragon.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Especially for me who quite often wants to be off center.


If I attack your

- center (front door), I may have to deal with both of your arms (because both of your arms can reach me).
- blind side (side door), I only have to deal with one of your arms (because your back arm is jammed by your leading arm).

I like to attack the

- center (front door) for kicking.
- blind side (side door) for punching.

My circle running footwork is mainly to reach to my opponent's side door (or back door).


----------



## Callen (Mar 17, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I was interested in the question, "Besides dodging, what's a WC guy's solution to deal with a hook punch?"


Fair question. Standing in one place with a "blocking" mentality will eventually get you hit. A lot of folks think they can just throw out a taan and all the work is done for them. Like most striking systems, Wing Chun requires controlling the distance, utilizing timing, angling for position, etc...


----------



## Callen (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> But really, there are no center lines. That's the big secret. Lines are important when learning how to do something, once it comes time to use it, hopefully you're not thinking geometry. That's what "it hits all by itself means.


Yep, exactly.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2022)

Callen said:


> Standing in one place with a "blocking" mentality will eventually get you hit.


The term "blocking" may not be the right word. I prefer to call it "limb hits limb" instead.

In theory, when 2 limbs hit on each other, whoever has the toughest limb will win. The attacker doesn't have any advantage.

For example, the contact force should be felt by both,

- when your opponent throws a body rotation hook punch at you, if you also throw a body rotation hook punch back at him.
- when you opponent throws a low roundhouse kick at you, if you turn your shin bone into his kick.

Of course, the smart strategy should be to use the strong part of your limb to hit on the weak part of your opponent's limb.


----------



## Callen (Mar 17, 2022)

Jaz said:


> Do you know or use any other ways to understand it and apply to Wing Chun?



“Centerline” can be many things, and I also agree with what others have said about it being way over-thought. IMO, it comes down to how the mechanics of the system are understood. Like so many things, centerline is a training tool.

In my training for example, the emphasis is on chasing the opponent’s center. Our own centerline is really just a guide for the direct path of the elbow + punch. Proper elbow placement to allow firing-off the vertical punch, nothing more. Develop the punch through proper mechanics, and our own “centerline” is naturally developed as well. We then use those same elbow principles for all Wing Chun actions.

So when we talk about recovering or protecting our centerline, etc… It is about making sure we are in a good position to hit with a vertical fist. In this way of thinking our own centerline does not exist, it is dissolved into the mechanics, leaving the target as the focus. If the way is clear, hit.

Through my observation, when people put the idea of “centerline” (expected, idealistic results) ahead of prioritizing the development of mechanics, they will have an incomplete understanding of the system.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2022)

Jaz said:


> Do you know or use any other ways to understand it and apply to Wing Chun?


To me, the centerline principle can be as simple as, "If I put my arms in my centerline, all your linear punches will have to deal with my hands first." So, my centerline strategy will force my opponent to use non-linear punches. Since I only have to deal with non-linear punches, this will simplify the fight down to 50%.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 17, 2022)

One more thing I'd like to say about centerline. There are many in the WC community that worship it like a religion and will not violate it. In my opinion this is too rigid of a mindset. 
It is OK to cross your centerline (with the right training and behavioral conditioning which we get from the system). 
Some may read that and think "blasphemy"! And I'm ok with that. But IME wc hands work together in a cycle/recycle method; AND there may come a time when you will need to "seal out/off" your centerline from near-to-far because your timing was off...or maybe because the bad guy did something unexpected or with better timing/speed etc. 
To summarize: IMO your centerline is not some rigid wall that cannot be violated or crossed. It is an idea...and a dynamic one at that. 
~ End rant.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2022)

Jaz said:


> Do you know or use any other ways to understand it and apply to Wing Chun?


When you switch sides, your centerline will expose for a small amount of time. Your opponent can attack through your centerline right at that moment. This is why to switch sides in the middle of a fight is not a good idea.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What I meant was a senior Jow Ga trainee probably knows 98% of what's in Wing Chun, even if they don't realize it.
> 
> Now think of the opposite, imagine a Wing Chun trainee who spends some time in Gong Ji Bo.  Limitless new possibilities.
> 
> ...


Forgive me, I don’t speak any Chinese. Gongji bo? Is that rooster staff? LOL! Or Cock attack? Lmao I know I’m butchering this but I’m cracking myself up.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2022)

Here are 2 examples that one attacks through the centerline.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Forgive me, I don’t speak any Chinese. Gongji bo? Is that rooster staff? LOL! Or Cock attack? Lmao I know I’m butchering this but I’m cracking myself up.


It's one Chinese name for one of the most common stances in all combat sport.  It's the most common Jow Ga name, another name is Gi Ng Ma, named after positions on the sundial.

It's not in the Wing Chun forms, but it probably should be.  I think anyone who learns Wing Chun should already train it, but I'm just a dreamer.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's one Chinese name for one of the most common stances in all combat sport.  It's the most common Jow Ga name, another name is Gi Ng Ma, named after positions on the sundial.
> 
> It's not in the Wing Chun forms, but it probably should be.  I think anyone who learns Wing Chun should already train it, but I'm just a dreamer.


Can you post a pic of the stance please?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Can you post a pic of the stance please?


It's the classic lead foot forward, strong leg back stance used in boxing and grappling.  子午馬 (or 前弓後箭馬)

In arts like Jow Ga, Hung Ga, the stance is practiced for strenght as an elongated static pose, or as a transition with level changes later on.  In sparring, it's not done nearly as low, so you stay nice a loose and ready to pounce.

Once the legs are nice and strong, it becomes second nature.  Most common defensive stances in MMA stances are Ji Ng Ma (most other common Kung Fu stances like 4 parallel Horse or Goat Riding Horse are not for fighting).  The classic Muay Thai stance is a higher Ji Ng Ma/empty leg hybrid that usually favors forward facing hips, compared to the orthodox boxing stance, with the center of mass lower and hips somewhat the the side, compared to the Chinese Sanshou stances, which tend ever lower, but no so much as to lose mobility.

"Gong Gi Bo" means bow and arrow stance, "Ji Ng Ma" is a nod to "12 and 6"  or "11 and 5 stance" as in 12/6, 11/5 on the sundial, where the front toe and back heel are generally aligned to produce a stable, rooted posture.





__





						4 Most Used Stances In MMA – Law Of The Fist
					






					lawofthefist.com
				




Hung Ga Tiger version.






Jow Ga version.





Yogic version.





Mantis version.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

Cung Le spinning back kick setup version.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's the classic lead foot forward, strong leg back stance used in boxing and grappling.  子午馬 (or 前弓後箭馬)
> 
> In arts like Jow Ga, Hung Ga, the stance is practiced for strenght as an elongated static pose, or as a transition with level changes later on.  In sparring, it's not done nearly as low, so you stay nice a loose and ready to pounce.
> 
> ...


Ok bow stance. Got it. My rooster staff stance is strong!


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok bow stance. Got it. My rooster staff stance is strong!



A novice has trouble sitting in this for a few seconds, somebody with a little training can do it for a few minutes.

The key is to build it up like this, so that at higher levels, it feels like nothing.

Lactic acid...oh my.  I forget what that feels like from doing these so much.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

Butcher Lam, ever helpful with examples.

Monkey Steals peach, the center line is between your elbow and the opponents elbow.  Drunken Immortal fist...puts a whole new perspective on idea of "center line".  Sweeps involve moving in both directions on a center line.  And Deng Kiu, the rooting bridge...well when I learned that one, I started focusing more on the ground, one of the most impressive of the twelve southern bridges.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> A novice has trouble sitting in this for a few seconds, somebody with a little training can do it for a few minutes.
> 
> The key is to build it up like this, so that at higher levels, it feels like nothing.
> 
> ...


Tong Long Pai has that kneeling stance in one of the forms we have from there the Sam bo Jin


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Butcher Lam, ever helpful with examples.
> 
> Monkey Steals peach, the center line is between your elbow and the opponents elbow.  Drunken Immortal fist...puts a whole new perspective on idea of "center line".  Sweeps involve moving in both directions on a center line.  And Deng Kiu, the rooting bridge...well when I learned that one, I started focusing more on the ground, one of the most impressive of the twelve southern bridges.
> 
> ...


Very nice.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> A novice has trouble sitting in this for a few seconds, somebody with a little training can do it for a few minutes.
> 
> The key is to build it up like this, so that at higher levels, it feels like nothing.
> 
> ...


Thigh burners! I love it! Do it again, now faster!


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thigh burners! I love it! Do it again, now faster!


Now that's just crazy talk.  You can't love those things ha ha ha.  Jow Ga students are known for their poor counting skills.  By the time we hear "10" we would have already done 20 or more lol.  I'm the same with my weight lifting. I'm supposed to do 3 rounds but some how between round 1 and round 2 I forget what round I'm on.  So I do another just in case.lol


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 17, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thigh burners! I love it! Do it again, now faster!


Isometric exercises help to eliminate the burn of lactic acid.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's not in the Wing Chun forms, but it probably should be.



There is a stance very similar to this in some of the versions of WC pole form. So it is in the WC forms.


----------



## APL76 (Mar 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again, the spear only has 3 techniques. All the other techniques came from the staff technique.
> 
> Both WC system and spear fight are very similar. Both emphasizes on the straight-line attack. The spear has small circular moves used for defense, IMO, the WC system should have it too.


 "The spear has small circular moves used for defense"

What makes you think wing chun doesn't have it?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 18, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> There is a stance very similar to this in some of the versions of WC pole form. So it is in the WC forms.


To be honest I've never trained Wing Chun weapon forms specifically, but have all the major southern weapon forms (saber, staff, spear, blah blah), very similar.

I'll have to check out some videos, thanks.  But always found it odd not to find it in the empty hand forms, and assumed it was supplemental training somewhere else, so maybe that explains it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> There is a stance very similar to this in some of the versions of WC pole form. So it is in the WC forms.


Since the WC pole form uses different stances than the open hand form, do you think the WC pole form may come from other CMA system?

In theory, the weapon is the extension of the arm. The weapon technique should be similar to the open hand technique.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> do you think the WC pole form may come from other CMA system?



I have heard it did. I have heard that parts of it were extracted from something called 5th Brother Pole (or something like that?)...


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since the WC pole form uses different stances than the open hand form, do you think the WC pole form may come from other CMA system?
> 
> In theory, the weapon is the extension of the arm. The weapon technique should be similar to the open hand technique.


Yes, because the staff forms are ancient going back to the Sung Dynasty about a thousand years ago, and were memorializes in many of the Southern styles.  Wing Chun is a young art, but its staff form goes back to legendary folklore 900-1200ish AD.

So technically the CMA "system" is actually Yang family military staff training, because of the staffs importance for spear, gwan do, monks spade, and other long weapons.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 18, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> I have heard it did. I have heard that parts of it were extracted from something called 5th Brother Pole (or something like that?)...


The Fifth Brother's Eight Trigram staff, also the key Five Family staff form.  Probably the most famous staff form in all of China, thanks to Gordon Liu's depiction of the folk soldier.









						Hung Ga Kyun’s "Eight Trigrams Long Pole" (Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwan) - Practical Hung Kyun
					

The 4 most famous sets with the “single-ended” long pole (Daan Tau Gwan) are “Six and Half Point Long Pole” (Luk Dim Bun Gwan), “The Flowing Water Long Pole” (Lau Seui Gwan), “Left-Handed Fisherman´s Long Pole (Jo Sau Diu Yu Gwan) and the “Ng Long’s Eight Trigrams Long Pole” (Ng Long Baat Gwa...



					practicalhungkyun.com


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> So technically the CMA "system" is actually military staff training, because of the staffs importance for spear, gwan do, monks spade, and other long weapons.


I believe the techniques that you hold at the end of the staff came from the spear technique. During the ancient time, spear was illegal weapon. So people took the spear head off and pretend it was just a staff.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe the techniques that you hold at the end of the staff came from the spear technique. During the ancient time, spear was illegal weapon. So people took the spear head off and pretend it was just a staff.


Well the age of the forms goes back to Yang Ye's army defending the Northern Han from Liao, so it was used by imperial soldiers.  But yeah, the spear forms are practically identical, because 5B8T is specifically a single ended long staff form, lots of circling and poking, not a lot of big swings and translates almost perfectly to adding a point in the end.  I have seen waxwood staves that are actually sharpened to a point, rather than a steel tip.  Just as deadly.

Compared to other, rarer forms in the south like the Traveler's, Monkey staff and other "eyebrow" short double ended staff forms.

This is the dude who's army created the form according to the source of its legend (the actual 5th brother probably existed, Yang Ye had six sons, but 5th son didn't pull the form out of thin air, it was likely developed collaboratively by weapon masters of the day).









						Yang Ye - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




Modern scholarly research holds up that practically all empty handed sets are relatively new (less than 500 years), but weapon forms are super old and go back to the BC era.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well the age of the forms goes back to Yang Ye's army defending the Northern Han from Liao, so it was used by imperial soldiers.  But yeah, the spear forms are practically identical, because 5B8T is specifically a single ended long staff form, lots of circling and poking, not a lot of big swings and translates almost perfectly to adding a point in the end.  I have seen waxwood staves that are actually sharpened to a point, rather than a steel tip.  Just as deadly.
> 
> Compared to other, rarer forms in the south like the Traveler's, Monkey staff and other "eyebrow" short double ended staff forms.
> 
> ...



When ya think about it...kinda of makes sense. Long weapon. Easily procured for masses of foot soldiers. And, the length of it would keep relatively "untrained" soldiers at a distance to their opponent where blades would come into play. And also I would imagine the long distances of the pole / spear would be used against horses too.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> because 5B8T is specifically a single ended long staff form, lots of circling and poking, not a lot of big swings


There are big difference if we compare the

1. WC single end staff form - more poking. small circling, less big swings.
2. long fist double ends staff form - less poking, large circling, more big swings.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2022)

APL76 said:


> "The spear has small circular moves used for defense"
> 
> What makes you think wing chun doesn't have it?


It exists in the WC pole form. But does it exist in the WC open hand form?

Something like this - counter-clock half circle, clockwise half circle.






In open hand, it may look like this.


----------



## APL76 (Mar 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It exists in the WC pole form. But does it exist in the WC open hand form?
> 
> Something like this - counter-clock half circle, clockwise half circle.
> 
> ...


Yes it does exist in the empty hand forms, though to a large degree I suspect it will probably depend on the style of wing chun you do. 

It is a feature of the Yip Man wing chun I learned; and It is most certainly a central component of Sum Nung wing chun I learn. That said it doesn't appear, from what I have seen at least, to be that prominent in most Yip Man wing chun.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It exists in the WC pole form. But does it exist in the WC open hand form?
> 
> Something like this - counter-clock half circle, clockwise half circle.
> 
> ...



Yes, in the first form.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> But yeah, the spear forms are practically identical, because 5B8T is specifically a single ended long staff form, lots of circling and poking, not a lot of big swings and translates almost perfectly to adding a point in the end.  I have seen waxwood staves that are actually sharpened to a point, rather than a steel tip.  Just as deadly.


This is not my experience.  We have a staff form that we call “fifth brother staff” and it is exactly what you say that it is not in the above.  

It is double-ended (but gripped and used from one end at a time, not gripped in the middle), contains lots of sweeping strikes and far fewer pokes, and really does not resemble spear at all, at least when compared to an actual spear set.

I believe that the name is used widely for sets found within different systems, that are not the same set.  I do not believe it is possible to trace an existing set to a specific ancestral set, I believe the name is simply popular and over time it was applied by many people to many sets. 

That’s my take on it, anyways.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Yes, in the first form.


Could you point out at which point of this form?






I expect something like this.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Could you point out at which point of this form?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At 2:45


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> This is not my experience.  We have a staff form that we call “fifth brother staff” and it is exactly what you say that it is not in the above.
> 
> It is double-ended (but gripped and used from one end at a time, not gripped in the middle), contains lots of sweeping strikes and far fewer pokes, and really does not resemble spear at all, at least when compared to an actual spear set.


The Fifth Brother Eight Trigram form is pretty standardized in China, especially around spearwork and other long weapons, and it's most heavily tied to Wong Fei Hung's lineage and the Yang family spear forms.  It's found in others but not popularly.  Generally it's safe to say the 5 Southern Family arts kept this form going, although others like Wing Chun would definitely know about it and train it.  

But everyone loves to change things. If you are doing something different than this, I'd love to see a video, because chances are it's not the canonical 5B8T form, it's modified.

Yes, a lot of this is common in CMA.  And in my world the old film beats later video.  And no, it's entirely possibly to link modern forms with ancient weapons forms.  The ancient Chinese were meticulous about documenting stuff.  I have stele, artwork, pictures before even the advent of cinema.

Lam Chun Fai does the best version on camera in the last 100 years, but my YouTube skills aren't working very well at the moment...here's some old B&W, and Wing Lam in Technicolor.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

Not to mention, Gordon Liu basically set the standard for 5B8T in the 80's.

"I'm here to deliver the poles...the poles of righteousness!"


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The Fifth Brother Eight Trigram form is pretty standardized in China, especially around spearwork and other long weapons, and it's most heavily tied to Wong Fei Hung's lineage and the Yang family spear forms.  It's found in others but not popularly.  Generally it's safe to say the 5 Southern Family arts kept this form going, although others like Wing Chun would definitely know about it and train it.
> 
> But everyone loves to change things. If you are doing something different than this, I'd love to see a video, because chances are it's not the canonical 5B8T form, it's modified.
> 
> ...


Yup, that is exactly not what our fifth brother staff set is.  Perhaps the eight trigrams designation makes a difference, I don’t recall hearing that part in the name we use.  Maybe they are two different sets distinguished by that. 

But hey, what do I know?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Yup, that is exactly not what our fifth brother staff set is.  Perhaps the eight trigrams designation makes a difference, I don’t recall hearing that part in the name we use.  Maybe they are two different sets distinguished by that.
> 
> But hey, what do I know?



Trigrams are deep kung fu knowledge, so...not suitable for Saturday afternoon.  That said,

I spent the afternoon researching the history of southern staff forms (Shahar, Judkins), I have a whole set of notes outlined specific to Wing Chun, so the basic transmission of material from old Song dynasty military drills, through Shaolin Temple, and later to Ming Dynasty and later on Red Opera boats is a little clearer.

The staff (spear) forms came into the Wing Chun families via just a handful of routes (a few key real and Shaolin-trained legendary figures), but by the time Ip Man learned (some of) Wing Chun, they had become unmistakably southern (the single ended long staff as boat oar) but he (according to certain gossip) would only teach them for huge sums of money.  While I don't buy into that sort of talk lightly, Ip Man was an opium addict for some time, so the idea of him fleecing students for cash and giving them substandard staff training doesn't seem far fetched.  You could, at the same time, get singled ended staff training in other southern schools.

However, the good news is that a common webwork of the 5B8T form connects several arts  The Yang family staff forms (northern Han) contained just a handful (about six and a half...) of key techniques, these later on circa Ming dynasty became what China now associates as Fifth Brother Eight Trigram staff, which if you know Hong Kong cinema has become immortalized with Hung Kuen flair, but is way older than that.

To Young Wing Chun, this is the "Six and a Half Point Staff" technique.  That's why I find the comments like "oh this makes more sense with a weapon in your hands" enlightening.  Because it's true, whether or not you're holding anything.

Sigong Kwok has a great video on this.






I have no idea what school this kid is in, but it's clearly 5B8T.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

And just because it's Saturday, this is the best staff duel ever caught on film.  Somebody once told me this was fake movie stuff, I asked them if they could pull it off.  Crickets.

In reality, these are two very skilled 5B8T masters.  They goofed this movie's name in the English though.  8 _Diagrams_???  Come on, dude.  Know your kung fu!

(Eight trigam _double _ended staff!??)


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2022)

I’m not supposed to post our stuff on the internet, but I found this on YouTube.  It is not our fifth brother staff (I don’t actually know what this set is, Bak Hoc definitely has some variations from one school and lineage to another) but this is the type of technique that our fifth brother staff has.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m not supposed to post our stuff on the internet, but I found this on YouTube.  It is not our fifth brother staff (I don’t actually know what this set is, Bak Hoc definitely has some variations from one school and lineage to another) but this is the type of technique that our fifth brother staff has.


that makes me super tired just watching it.  If you told me that is the lesson for to today, I would be like "time to pretend to pass out and hope for the best" lol


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Trigrams are deep kung fu knowledge, so...not suitable for Saturday afternoon.  That said,
> 
> I spent the afternoon researching the history of southern staff forms (Shahar, Judkins), I have a whole set of notes outlined specific to Wing Chun, so the basic transmission of material from old Song dynasty military drills, through Shaolin Temple, and later to Ming Dynasty and later on Red Opera boats is a little clearer.
> 
> ...


Dang...that dude in the kwok video must have the worst pole shocking skill I've ever seen LOL


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> that makes me super tired just watching it.  If you told me that is the lesson for to today, I would be like "time to pretend to pass out and hope for the best" lol


It is some really effective material.  I’ve pretty much stopped using flexible waxwood and use hickory instead.  Those techniques will pulverize your head and beat you into the dust.   It is absolutely lethal.  I think perhaps people tend to forget how lethal a stick/staff is.  I think in many peoples’ minds, staff plays second fiddle to something like sword.  People like the obvious lethality of a steel blade.  But skillful staff will kill you just as dead, and will break your sword for good measure.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m not supposed to post our stuff on the internet, but I found this on YouTube.  It is not our fifth brother staff (I don’t actually know what this set is, Bak Hoc definitely has some variations from one school and lineage to another) but this is the type of technique that our fifth brother staff has.


Fujian Crane style, which makes sense.

Here's a similar example, Fujian Crane dude actually borrowed a Wing Chun longstaff to do this form.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Dang...that dude in the kwok video must have the worst pole shocking skill I've ever seen LOL


Which one, the bearded guy or the bald guy?


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Which one, the bearded guy or the bald guy?


The dude in the video with kwok


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Fujian Crane style, which makes sense.
> 
> Here's a similar example, Fujian Crane dude actually borrowed a Wing Chun longstaff to do this form.


No, not Fujian crane.  This is Tibetan.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> The dude in the video with kwok


OH, there are actually 2 or 3 guys in the video with him, the first has a beard, the second is bald.  They both look a little, er, outclassed.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> No, not Fujian crane.  This is Tibetan.


Makes senses, there's a long cultural connection between the two.

Keep in mind both went through centuries and centuries of military dynasty pressure to be effective or die on the battlefield.  The family lineages still teach them because they're effective, and relatively simple, compared to some of the goofy wushu sporty flashy stuff.

I sometimes find it mentioned that Tibetan White Crane and Fujian White Crane aren't related.  The truth is they have separate origins but were combined centuries ago by various styles, Wing Chun being just one.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Makes senses, there's a long cultural connection between the two.
> 
> Keep in mind both went through centuries and centuries of military dynasty pressure to be effective or die on the battlefield.


I have always understood that Tibetan and Fujian crane developed independently.  They do not share a history, one did not derive from the other, they did not diverge from a common ancestral method.  If you look at their forms, they are quite different.  Not just the choreography, but the foundation and fundamental methodology of their techniques.  To even the casual observer it is evident that they are completely different approach.

Different people in different geographic regions found inspiration in the same animal and the fact that they both call their system White Crane is coincidental.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I have always understood that Tibetan and Fujian crane developed independently.  They do not share a history, one did not derive from the other, they did not diverge from a common ancestral method.  If you look at their forms, they are quite different.  Not just the choreography, but the foundation and fundamental methodology of their techniques.  To even the casual observer it is evident that they are completely different approach.
> 
> Different people in different geographic regions found inspiration in the same animal and the fact that they both call their system White Crane is coincidental.


Wing Chun contains both, so do all Five southern family fist methods.  Jow Ga has both.  They definitely share a history.  It's like two cousins getting married, really.

Read here on the "Journey to the South", part and the Ten Tigers of Canton.  That's the connection between Tibet and Fujian kung fu.  And Wong Fei Hung himself was the son of one of them, of course.





__





						Tibetan White Crane - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> OH, there are actually 2 or 3 guys in the video with him, the first has a beard, the second is bald.  They both look a little, er, outclassed.


Oh sorry...the dude with the beard at 2:36


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I think perhaps people tend to forget how lethal a stick/staff is.


I'm reminded every time it gets out of control and smashes my knee or shin lol.  I didn't start out liking the staff.  IT was something that grew on me. The more I used it the more I enjoyed it,  People probably down play it because it seems like a really simple weapon after all it's just a stick, just swing it. lol.  Its a very misleading weapon.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Wing Chun contains both, so do all Five southern family fist methods.  Jow Ga has both.  They definitely share a history.  It's like two cousins getting married, really.
> 
> Read here on the "Journey to the South", part and the Ten Tigers of Canton.  That's the connection between Tibet and Fujian kung fu.  And Wong Fei Hung himself was the son of one of them, of course.
> 
> ...


I am definitely familiar with the history of the system and am aware of the influence it has had on Hung ga.  I suppose at some point these things come into contact with each other and there can be some influence of one upon the other, in both directions.  None of this stuff remains “pure” (if that can even be defined) for very long. 

I see similarities in aspects of Choy lay fut and Jow ga, again it isn’t surprising that some ideas become widespread and find a place within other systems.  I confess I don’t know much about Fujian crane, but all that I have seen of it indicates it is a different inspiration of the crane.  I am aware that Fujian crane may be an ancestor or at least heavy influencer of wing Chun.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm reminded every time it gets out of control and smashed my knee or shin lol.  I didn't start out liking the staff.  IT was something that grew on me. The more I used it the more I enjoyed it,  People probably down play it because it seems like a really simple weapon after all it's just a stick, just swing it. lol.  Its a very misleading weapon.


Yeah, I agree.  And the sword holds kind of a mystical/romantic place in our imagination so I think people see it as the pinnacle or something.   But honestly, as long as I have the room to use it properly, I would choose Staff over sword any day of the week, if my life depended on it.  Even more so for the spear.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2022)

My apologies to the Wing Chun folks, i seem to have seriously derailed the thread.  It was not my intention.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I am definitely familiar with the history of the system and am aware of the influence it has had on Hung ga.  I suppose at some point these things come into contact with each other and there can be some influence of one upon the other, in both directions.  None of this stuff remains “pure” (if that can even be defined) for very long.
> 
> I see similarities in aspects of Choy lay fut and Jow ga, again it isn’t surprising that some ideas become widespread and find a place within other systems.  I confess I don’t know much about Fujian crane, but all that I have seen of it indicates it is a different inspiration of the crane.  I am aware that Fujian crane may be an ancestor or at least heavy influencer of wing Chun.


Definitely!  The Ten Tigers certainly knew of each other, and interacted, in each other's styles (and in fiction, they even formed a 10-man super kung fu team, basically the first Chinese Avengers).  One of them was Leung Kwan, whose dynamic tension form I am mastering as we chat.  He taught Wong Fei Hung the Iron Wire, that form now has numerous variations based on personal flare, but you can still spot the old, canonical stuff, compared to weird new stuff people are doing that...is definitely not the Shaolin Iron Wire of Wong Hei Hung or Lam Sai Wing.

Let's move away from animals then and focus on the Plum Flower Boxing, which obliterates (imo) the whole concept of a single centerline and is supposed to be fundamental training in Wing Chun, but probably isn't.  I don't meet many Wing Chun students that have ever heard of this.

If the two Crane methods we just discussed influenced all sorts of other arts (even Okinawan...) then Plum Flower Boxing is an ever wider scale.  It's a canonical Shaolin training method that made it's way into everything: CLF, Hung Ga, Bagua, Wing Chun, Five Ancestor Fist...so if you train those and never heard of it, it's yet another key to the puzzle.

Are you familiar with 5 point Plum Flower work?  This is something else that seems to be missing from a lot of Wing Chun schools, but it's so fundamental you have to wonder if not, then why??  Meihuaquan is one of the most diverse styles in China, and definitely impacted Wing Chun, and it's today found in various forms in all the more modern styles, so why isn't this sort of thing taught in every Wing Chun school?

When I said Wing Chun has 1 centerline, I forgot to mention it really has this many.  And many more...

This video had me at the fridge.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Are you familiar with 5 point Plum Flower work?


If people have never heard about the plum flower long fist system, they should heard about the boxer rebellion. The main boxer rebellion members trained the plum flower long fist system.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If people have never heard about the plum flower long fist system, they should heard about the boxer rebellion. The main boxer rebellion members trained the plum flower long fist system.


The White Lotus Rebellion, the Eight Trigram Rebellion, sure.

100,000+ Buddhist warriors invaded the Forbidden City, once.  They were brutally put down by the Emperor.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Are you familiar with 5 point Plum Flower work?



Yes. It was part of my WC training. And, IMO, contains many hidden gems


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 20, 2022)

Just my opinion but the dude in that video has done the plum flower jong a major injustice. Lots to break down and discuss in that video but to keep it short I'll just stop there. LOL.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Just my opinion but the dude in that video has done the plum flower jong a major injustice. Lots to break down and discuss in that video but to keep it short I'll just stop there. LOL.


If you mean the part about not using actual poles for stance work, I totally agree.

They're called plumb flower _poles_ for a good reason.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> If you mean the part about not using actual poles for stance work, I totally agree.
> 
> They're called plumb flower _poles_ for a good reason.



Yeah that part...and others. 

How he was saying to just go around the plastic cones was weird.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Yeah that part...and others.
> 
> How he was saying to just go around the plastic cones was weird.


I find these sorts of videos sort of adorable.  Here's an older dude in his garage trying to figure out Kung Fu.  Good for him.  He clearly learned something basic and made a cute clip.  Sometimes the super amateurs are the best. Cones!

It's food for my own thought, I have a 6 point pole setup at home.  Maybe I just feel sympathy.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I find these sorts of videos sort of adorable.  Here's an older dude in his garage trying to figure out Kung Fu.  Good for him.  He clearly learned something basic and made a cute clip.  Sometimes the super amateurs are the best. Cones!
> 
> It's food for my own thought, I have a 6 point pole setup at home.  Maybe I just feel sympathy.



Yeah if one has never been through that training...ya really can't even relate.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> If you mean the part about not using actual poles for stance work, I totally agree.
> 
> They're called plumb flower _poles_ for a good reason.


The term "pole" may be mis-used here. By definition a pole has larger diameter than a staff.

This is a pole.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The term "pole" may be mis-used here. By definition a pole has larger diameter than a staff.
> 
> This is a pole.
> 
> View attachment 28249


It's not that kind of pole, dude.  Think bigger, and footwork.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

The Eight Drunken Immortal Fist!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's not that kind of pole, dude.  Think bigger, and footwork.


I'm talking about the WC 6 and 1/2 points pole.

The "hand striking pole" that I had learned when I was 11 require that your fingers cannot hold on to the entire pole. This way, when your opponent's pole slides along your pole, his pole won't be able to hit on your fingers.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I have a 6 point pole setup at home.



Yeah same here. I'm an advocate of this "old school" training.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm talking about the WC 6 and 1/2 points pole.
> 
> The "hand striking pole" that I had learned when I was 11 require that your fingers cannot hold on to the entire pole. This way, when your opponent's pole slides along your pole, his pole won't be able to hit on your fingers.


Oh, my bad.  That's good.

But Wing Chun on Plum Flower poles.  Center lines??


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I have a 6 point pole setup at home.  Maybe I just feel sympathy.


Actually you can mark on the ground, it should work the same.

I like to mark A-B on the ground as my current feet positions. I then mart A'-B' on the ground as my next feet position. I then jump from A-B into A'-B' and then back over and over. This way when I move in, I only need one hopping.

Footwork like this:


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Definitely!  The Ten Tigers certainly knew of each other, and interacted, in each other's styles (and in fiction, they even formed a 10-man super kung fu team, basically the first Chinese Avengers).  One of them was Leung Kwan, whose dynamic tension form I am mastering as we chat.  He taught Wong Fei Hung the Iron Wire, that form now has numerous variations based on personal flare, but you can still spot the old, canonical stuff, compared to weird new stuff people are doing that...is definitely not the Shaolin Iron Wire of Wong Hei Hung or Lam Sai Wing.
> 
> Let's move away from animals then and focus on the Plum Flower Boxing, which obliterates (imo) the whole concept of a single centerline and is supposed to be fundamental training in Wing Chun, but probably isn't.  I don't meet many Wing Chun students that have ever heard of this.
> 
> ...


I guess none of this is stuff that I spend my time on.  I don’t really have anything to add, in terms of Wing Chun centerline.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Actually you can mark on the ground, it should work the same.
> 
> I like to mark A-B on the ground as my current feet positions. I then mart A'-B' on the ground as my next feet position. I then jump from A-B into A'-B' and then back over and over. This way when I move in, I only need one hopping.
> 
> Footwork like this:


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 20, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess none of this is stuff that I spend my time on.  I don’t really have anything to add, in terms of Wing Chun centerline.


So much for your "Tibetan White Crane" style then.

Heh.  Not even a Lion's Roar or Hop Gar note?

KUNLUN MOUNTAINS DUDE!  Come on, try.


----------



## APL76 (Mar 21, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The term "pole" may be mis-used here. By definition a pole has larger diameter than a staff.
> 
> This is a pole.
> 
> View attachment 28249


I think you meant Log.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> So much for your "Tibetan White Crane" style then.
> 
> Heh.  Not even a Lion's Roar or Hop Gar note?
> 
> ...


Excuse me?  So much for my Tibetan crane?  What are you going on about?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Excuse me?  So much for my Tibetan crane?  What are you going on about?


Always something new to learn.  I'm here to help you!  Kunlun Mountains!

If you didn't learn Plum Flower Pole techniques in your Tibetan Crane, you missed out on a lot (of fun) but THIS material definitely ties your arts and Wing Chun centerline theory together nicely.  Two professional Eastern history scholars agree.  We're getting to the roots, pun intended, of the lotus.






Personally I hate plums.  But Lotus root, omg...are you a fan too?  This version is Korean, obviously.


----------



## hunschuld (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Excuse me?  So much for my Tibetan crane?  What are you going on about?


He is being a schmuck trying to impress with his "deep" knowledge. Tibetan white crane, Lions Roar and Hop gar are different names for  variations of the same system. In the early 80's Chen sifu, my first wing chun teacher, shared a school with one of the few acknowledged Hop Gar masters at that time, Ku sifu, who taught me Chi Gung among other things.  I met experts in many styles of kung fu that would stop at the school to pay their respects


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2022)

hunschuld said:


> He is being a schmuck trying to impress with his "deep" knowledge. Tibetan white crane, Lions Roar and Hop gar are different names for  variations of the same system. In the early 80's Chen sifu, my first wing chun teacher, shared a school with one of the few acknowledged Hop Gar masters at that time, Ku sifu, who taught me Chi Gung among other things.  I met experts in many styles of kung fu that would stop at the school to pay their respects


Well, I am certainly aware of the relationship between the three sisters methods that descended from Lions Roar.  I just don’t see much in there to contribute on a discussion of centerline in Wing Chun.  Ive already contributed to a derailment of this thread, I didn’t see good reason for doing more.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

hunschuld said:


> He is being a schmuck trying to impress with his "deep" knowledge. Tibetan white crane, Lions Roar and Hop gar are different names for  variations of the same system.


Deep, hmm.

They're names for different systems that interconnect between places like the Kunlun Mountain ranges and southernmost China.


----------



## hunschuld (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess none of this is stuff that I spend my time on.  I don’t really have anything to add, in terms of Wing Chun centerline.


 Wing Chun centerline concepts can be very deep or a very simple explanation of many varied ideas or applications. Most centerline ideas used today stem from Yip Mans simplification. There were no food stamps in Hong Kong is 1950. Yip man had to eat and his only marketable skill was wing chun. He changed or simplified many things so he could teach people to fight as fast as possible. Students winning fights= more students and it worked. Wing Chun had become by accident the martial art of the educated middle and upper class in Fatshan he now had to teach the masses so he simplified things and he stopped teaching certain things as he got older. For example early students were taught kneeling stance. He changed a move in the dummy after an early student really hurt someone in a fight using the move. You never see the original in Yip Man dummy forms now.Centerline was simplified although some students had more expanded views. So nothing is right or wrong and nothing is better just different ways of expressing. Few have the skills necessary to actually use expanded knowledge in a fight anyway.

Basic centerline starts with the original wing chun martial salute, which you never see, then the cross hands done at the opening gives another center line concepts and it goes on each form including the weapons expands on the concept including changing angles and footwork.

Plum flower footwork is in all wing chun. Training on posts or piles was lost because you have to have a yard in your school to bury them and Yip man for one did not have an out door training yard but its still there you just have to unlock it. No different than Wing chun throws. They are in every form just kinda lost because throwing = injuries unless you have the proper training set up and students are able to protect one another from injury.


----------



## hunschuld (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Deep, hmm.
> 
> They're names for different systems that interconnect between places like the Kunlun Mountain ranges and southernmost China.


No, at least not 40 years ago. All from the same source.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I am certainly aware of the relationship between the three sisters methods that descended from Lions Roar.  I just don’t see much in there to contribute on a discussion of centerline in Wing Chun.  Ive already contributed to a derailment of this thread, I didn’t see good reason for doing more.


If you want to understand what the "centerline in Wing Chun" has to do with the other arts, read "The Creation of Wing Chun" by Ben Judkins.  Plum Flower Pole is right on topic, so is White Ape kung fu, Lion's Roar, Hop Ga Kuen, and every other southern family with a "Ga" in it.

The biggest fallacy promoted by kung fu students is that any arts grew up in a vacuum.  None of them did, Wing Chun is practically the godchild of Tibetan animal styles.  This is also a very sticky subject with Chinese folk...Tibet...etc.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

hunschuld said:


> No, at least not 40 years ago. All from the same source.


Historians disagree with you, bub.

Wait, that would be 1982...you've confused me.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Always something new to learn.  I'm here to help you!  Kunlun Mountains!
> 
> If you didn't learn Plum Flower Pole techniques in your Tibetan Crane, you missed out on a lot (of fun) but THIS material definitely ties your arts and Wing Chun centerline theory together nicely.  Two professional Eastern history scholars agree.  We're getting to the roots, pun intended, of the lotus.
> 
> ...


Of course I am familiar with what plum flower pole training is.  I don’t believe I have missed out on anything.  To me, this falls into the same category in which I put More Forms:  interesting, probably useful if you have it (so long as it doesn’t go off the deep end and just become too much material to keep on top of) but if you don’t, you aren’t missing anything.

There are plenty of good ways, both traditional and modern, with which to train solid skills.  None of them are mandatory.  All of them are simply one tool among many.  If your toolbox of training methods has a rich variety, then you are doing just fine.  To suggest that the absence of one particular training method somehow represents a key deficit is something that I cannot agree with. 

As to how this relates (or does not relate) to wing Chun centerline theory, I have no idea and as I said early, I don’t have anything to contribute.  My wing Chun training was many years ago and I have not kept up on it.  I’m not the expert in that field.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course I am familiar with what plum flower pole training is.  I don’t believe I have missed out on anything.  To me, this falls into the same category in which I put More Forms:  interesting, probably useful if you have it (so long as it doesn’t go off the deep end and just become too much material to keep on top of) but if you don’t, you aren’t missing anything.
> 
> There are plenty of good ways, both traditional and modern, with which to train solid skills.  None of them are mandatory.  All of them are simply one tool among many.  If your toolbox of training methods has a rich variety, then you are doing just fine.  To suggest that the absence of one particular training method somehow represents a key deficit is something that I cannot agree with.
> 
> As to how this relates (or does not relate) to wing Chun centerline theory, I have no idea and as I said early, I don’t have anything to contribute.  My wing Chun training was many years ago and I have not kept up on it.  I’m not the expert in that field.


That's cool.  I thought you said you didn't know what Plum Flower had to do with Wing Chun after the Staff form discussion between Kunlunquan and southern Crane styles.  I've been going over my books all weekend long trying to be helpful.

Maybe in retrospect you'll get my jokes about Mount Kunlun, flowers, and kung fu.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> If you want to understand what the "centerline in Wing Chun" has to do with the other arts, read "The Creation of Wing Chun" by Ben Judkins.  Plum Flower Pole is right on topic, so is White Ape kung fu, Lion's Roar, Hop Ga Kuen, and every other southern family with a "Ga" in it.
> 
> The biggest fallacy promoted by kung fu students is that any arts grew up in a vacuum.  None of them did, Wing Chun is practically the godchild of Tibetan animal styles.  This is also a very sticky subject with Chinese folk...Tibet...etc.


Sigh.  So here I am, continuing to contribute to thread derailment. 

I can only speak for myself.  I don’t know what others think or don’t think, regardless of my suspicions.  I know that none of this stuff formed or existed in a vacuum.  That is obvious to anyone who cares to contemplate it for a minute.  Human groups and cultures have intermixed and traded and shared and mingled for as long as the human species has existed.  This would affect all aspects of culture, including martial methods.  I have said this numerous times in the forums here, over the years.   That point has never escaped me.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Sigh.  So here I am, continuing to contribute to thread derailment.
> 
> I can only speak for myself.  I don’t know what others think or don’t think, regardless of my suspicions.  I know that none of this stuff formed or existed in a vacuum.  That is obvious to anyone who cares to contemplate it for a minute.  Human groups and cultures have intermixed and traded and shared and mingled for as long as the human species has existed.  This would affect all aspects of culture, including martial methods.  I have said this numerous times in the forums here, over the years.   That point has never escaped me.


I don't think you're derailing anything.  The topic is "understanding", that's not limited to how any one of us trained in particular.  That's a rich historial fabric you and I are both a part of.

If we really wanted to boil the ocean about lines, we could start discussing Chinese geomancy.  I'd prefer to stick to kung fu.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's cool.  I thought you said you didn't know what Plum Flower had to do with Wing Chun.  I've been going over my books all weekend long trying to be helpful.
> 
> Maybe in retrospect you'll get my jokes about Mount Kunlun, flowers, and kung fu.


I don’t know if plum flower poles have anything to do with wing Chun or not.  I only say that I am aware of what it is. 

If you are making jokes, I am not getting them.  Maybe that is why I am bewildered by what you are trying to say here.  I am reasonably well versed in Tibetan white crane.  That is what I spend my time and efforts on.  I have an interest in the history of the system, and I hold a reasonable level of skepticism for the stories and oral traditions that get passed down in the context of martial arts history and origin of systems.  I’ve done a bit of my own research in non-martial sources to verify the likelihood that our own creation story might be true.  I am satisfied that the elements of our story exist in the real world and our story could have happened, but I am in no way convinced that we have certainty that it DID happen.  That’s good enough for me.  So I am a curious fellow, but there are limits on how much time and energy I am willing to give it, because when the dust settles it doesn’t really matter and doesn’t affect my training or make me more skilled.   I am not an expert on the history or methods of all the other styles that exist.  I’ve trained in a few and have some knowledge of their history and methods, but I don’t claim to know it all.  If you are making jokes based on Chinese martial history and esoteric topics in Eastern philosophy, they are going over my head.

I don’t know what else to say.  I feel like to want me to engage in a discussion about which I don’t have the background to contribute.  Maybe I’ll learn something from reading this thread, and maybe I won’t.  
I’m kinda throwing up my hands here.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t know if plum flower poles have anything to do with wing Chun or not.  I only say that I am aware of what it is.
> 
> If you are making jokes, I am not getting them.  Maybe that is why I am bewildered by what you are trying to say here.  I am reasonably well versed in Tibetan white crane.  That is what I spend my time and efforts on.  I have an interest in the history of the system, and I hold a reasonable level of skepticism for the stories and oral traditions that get passed down in the context of martial arts history and origin of systems.  I’ve done a bit of my own research in non-martial sources to verify the likelihood that our own creation story might be true.  I am satisfied that the elements of our story exist in the real world and our story could have happened, but I am in no way convinced that we have certainty that it DID happen.  That’s good enough for me.  So I am a curious fellow, but there are limits on how much time and energy I am willing to give it, because when the dust settles it doesn’t really matter and doesn’t affect my training or make me more skilled.   I am not an expert on the history or methods of all the other styles that exist.  I’ve trained in a few and have some knowledge of their history and methods, but I don’t claim to know it all.  If you are making jokes based on Chinese martial history and esoteric topics in Eastern philosophy, they are going over my head.
> 
> ...


Didn't mean to badger you, bud.  I'm just here to share notes!


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I don't think you're derailing anything.  The topic is "understanding", that's not limited to how any one of us trained in particular.  That's a rich historial fabric you and I are both a part of.
> 
> If we really wanted to boil the ocean about lines, we could start discussing Chinese geomancy.  I'd prefer to stick to kung fu.


Well, if this stuff is all part of Wing Chun centerline theory, i am not knowledgable about it.  Threads often get derailed here, and it isn’t automatically a bad thing.  Some very interesting discussions often come out of those derailments.  But in this case I was just done because I didn’t really intend to get into the discussion.  I’m no expert on wing Chun, the topic of this thread.  I only meant to step in to point out that our fifth brother staff fits the description that you gave, of what fifth brother staff is not.  I was only saying, I don’t think we can trace hard connection lines so much, as lots of systems like to claim a connection to famous historical or mythological figures.  Often I believe these connections are fabricated and cannot be substantiated.  So I am not at all surprised that multiple forms from different systems and displaying very different techniques, would have a similar name.  I don’t see that as a bad thing or something to criticize.  These things simply represent a source of inspiration. 

Regardless of how well the Chinese liked to document things, I am unconvinced that one can adequately trace a particular sequence of physical movement back a thousand years or more.  Written description and drawings of techniques only get you so far.  Without something like video, or at the very least a tight sequence of progressive images that I find unlikely to be drawn by hand, I don’t think documentation can get you there, you just cannot describe the form clearly enough.  Lineage lists of who learned what from whom, over many generations, can be enlightening, but can also be prone to error.  Something can get named incorrectly, or things can get changed, or introduced from other sources under the same or similar name, there are just many many opportunities for error.  So I remain very skeptical of these claims of certainty in this kind of history.  But again, that is not an indictment because what really matters is, is this stuff effective and functional.  Weather or not we can trace the history back a thousand years, or examples of very different things that have a similar name, these things don’t matter.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, if this stuff is all part of Wing Chun centerline theory, i am not knowledgable about it.  Threads often get derailed here, and it isn’t automatically a bad thing.  Some very interesting discussions often come out of those derailments.  But in this case I was just done because I didn’t really intend to get into the discussion.  I’m no expert on wing Chun, the topic of this thread.  I only meant to step in to point out that our fifth brother staff fits the description that you gave, of what fifth brother staff is not.  I was only saying, I don’t think we can trace hard connection lines so much, as lots of systems like to claim a connection to famous historical or mythological figures.  Often I believe these connections are fabricated and cannot be substantiated.  So I am not at all surprised that multiple forms from different systems and displaying very different techniques, would have a similar name.  I don’t see that as a bad thing or something to criticize.  These things simply represent a source of inspiration.
> 
> Regardless of how well the Chinese liked to document things, I am unconvinced that one can adequately trace a particular sequence of physical movement back a thousand years or more.  Written description and drawings of techniques only get you so far.  Without something like video, or at the very least a tight sequence of progressive images that I find unlikely to be drawn by hand, I don’t think documentation can get you there, you just cannot describe the form clearly enough.  Lineage lists of who learned what from whom, over many generations, can be enlightening, but can also be prone to error.  Something can get named incorrectly, or things can get changed, or introduced from other sources under the same or similar name, there are just many many opportunities for error.  So I remain very skeptical of these claims of certainty in this kind of history.  But again, that is not an indictment because what really matters is, is this stuff effective and functional.  Weather or not we can trace the history back a thousand years, or examples of very different things that have a similar name, these things don’t matter.


Well all I can say is that it depends.  Chinese records are pretty meticulous in detail, including pictures.  And, the generational lineages do go back more than 1,000 years.  We're talking father to wife to son to daughter transmission for better or worse.  Inside that network of people, there are veins of people who became famous for kicking butt, healing, teaching, and so on.

As far as evidence, you have the extant styles today.  Wing Chun for instance didn't "spring" up, pun intended, out of nowhere.  Dr. Judkins for instance has traced it's lineage to dozens of styles, and hundreds of people, which is why any time you see claims of a single source claim in the lineages themselves for anything, you should doubt it.  It's rare to find any style that "owns" something special, center line included.

There are still people willing to get into fist fights over Ip Man being the only source for Wing Chun.  On the other side of the spectrum, there's us.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 21, 2022)

I have always wondered if Yip Man might have learned about the plum flower stuff at Dai Duk Lan alley? Perhaps cross-training or exchanging skills for skills with other kung fu peers? Just a thought...don't know for sure of course.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> I have always wondered if Yip Man might have learned about the plum flower stuff at Dai Duk Lan alley? Perhaps cross-training or exchanging skills for skills with other kung fu peers? Just a thought...don't know for sure of course.


There's a whole section in "Creation.." that has that stuff.  I'll try to summarize it later.  As usual it's a mix of fact and gossip.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well all I can say is that it depends.  Chinese records are pretty meticulous in detail, including pictures.  And, the generational lineages do go back more than 1,000 years.  We're talking father to wife to son to daughter transmission for better or worse.  Inside that network of people, there are veins of people who became famous for kicking butt, healing, teaching, and so on.
> 
> As far as evidence, you have the extant styles today.  Wing Chun for instance didn't "spring" up, pun intended, out of nowhere.  Dr. Judkins for instance has traced it's lineage to dozens of styles, and hundreds of people, which is why any time you see claims of a single source claim in the lineages themselves for anything, you should doubt it.  It's rare to find any style that "owns" something special, center line included.
> 
> There are still people willing to get into fist fights over Ip Man being the only source for Wing Chun.  On the other side of the spectrum, there's us.


Fair enough.  I do believe this stuff can be traced back a good ways, but I also believe we need to be open to the possibility that there are errors (perhaps many) in that history.  And yes, lots of influences along the way.  And yes, any “new” system was created on top of something that existed prior.  As we have both said, none of this exists in a vacuum.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Fair enough.  I do believe this stuff can be traced back a good ways, but I also believe we need to be open to the possibility that there are errors (perhaps many) in that history.  And yes, lots of influences along the way.  And yes, any “new” system was created on top of something that existed prior.  As we have both said, none of this exists in a vacuum.


Of the four pillars of Bak Hok, it's the sim in Tibetan White crane and derived styles that mostly deals with centerline, and it's closely related to Plum Flower Pole stepping.  You can see here the style of circular stepping around a central pole (4+1) or even in ancient tradition, 20+ poles.  I'm not the person most critical of Wing Chun here, but I will say that this is one of my pet peeves about a lot of Wing Chun, that lack of 360 degree awareness and obsession with go STRAIGHT AHEAD, before we even get to level changes, stuffing shoots, and dragon sprawls.

Same forms have been around in southern China since the Ming Dynasty or so, when this sort of stuff started to get more analytical and categorized.  Prior to then, most of these styles were simply not openly documented.  Our loss, but there's still plenty to work with to connect the dots.

Like, if I saw this picture and didn't know Hung Ga Kuen, I'd think it was Tibetan Hop Gar the rest of my life.  But it's really not...


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Of the four pillars of Bak Hok, it's the sim in Tibetan White crane and derived styles that mostly deals with centerline, and it's closely related to Plum Flower Pole stepping.  You can see here the style of circular stepping around a central pole (4+1) or even in ancient tradition, 20+ poles.  I'm not the person most critical of Wing Chun here, but I will say that this is one of my pet peeves about a lot of Wing Chun, that lack of 360 degree awareness and obsession with go STRAIGHT AHEAD, before we even get to level changes, stuffing shoots, and dragon sprawls.
> 
> Same forms have been around in southern China since the Ming Dynasty or so, when this sort of stuff started to get more analytical and categorized.  Prior to then, most of these styles were simply not openly documented.  Our loss, but there's still plenty to work with to connect the dots.
> 
> ...


How does “dodge” in TWC relate to centerline theory in wing Chun?

What are you saying about those pictures?  You feel they are hung ga and not hop ga?  I am not clear on what you are saying.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> How does “dodge” in TWC relate to centerline theory in wing Chun?
> 
> What are you saying about those pictures?  You feel they are hung ga and not hop ga?  I am not clear on what you are saying.


They're definitely Hop Ga, with Hung Ga in it. 

Because Hung Ga is older, and "gar" is overemphasizing the "r" at the end.  Brrr..  Even older, are the Tibetan styles that _they _hoovered up.

This is why I like the southern Five Animal system that sums all of this up into 5 animals, 5 elements, 12 bridges, 18 trigrams, 36 chambers, 108 whatever.  There are infinite directions, dude, I think we can all agree on that.  

But the Plum Flower is the most advanced thing I've ever seen in Wing Chun centerline theory.  Willing to go the distance, here.


----------



## wckf92 (Mar 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> But the Plum Flower is the most advanced thing I've ever seen in Wing Chun



Might explain why Yip Man either dropped it, or didn't teach it? Or just why it is basically unknown to today's wing chun folks?


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Might explain why Yip Man either dropped it, or didn't teach it? Or just why it is basically unknown to today's wing chun folks?


That's just it, it's not unknown to all Wing Chun schools.  Just some.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 21, 2022)

This is a great article.  I think the important takeaway is the so what, the styles split and recombined later on, before splitting again.  That's how it all works, people mix it up with other people.  So take "distinct" with a big pinch of pink Himalayan salt.









						Lama (martial art) - Alchetron, The Free Social Encyclopedia
					

While today the martial arts known as Lama Pai, Tibetan White Crane, and Hop Gar exist as relatively distinct lineages andor organizations, all originated with a single figure known as Sing Lung who arrived in Guangdong Province during the Qing Dynasty and taught a martial art then known as Lion's




					alchetron.com
				




Bonus points if you spot Master Ross.

Double bonus points if you spot Fe Kiu Saam.

Triple points if you can do both, and give an essay on Wing Chun centerline.  

By points, I mean love.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is a great article.  I think the important takeaway is the so what, the styles split and recombined later on, before splitting again.  That's how it all works, people mix it up with other people.  So take "distinct" with a big pinch of pink Himalayan salt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, so the topic of this thread has been changed to Tibetan martial arts, I guess..?


----------



## Old Happy Tiger (Mar 22, 2022)

If you want to see an awesome weapon... Wing Chun Dragon Pole.


----------



## O'Malley (Mar 22, 2022)

Old Happy Tiger said:


> If you want to see an awesome weapon... Wing Chun Dragon Pole.


That pickup line got me in trouble.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, so the topic of this thread has been changed to Tibetan martial arts, I guess..?


Hear me out partner.  Wing Chun centerline theory discussions are often about as fruitful as as wax bowel of them.  It's always a bit of the same thing.  It often ends poorly if there are any other arts in the room.

Wing Chun students always seem to hate to be told their exotic, Ming-era "theories" are really from much older arts (other than Shaolinquan), and in those arts when you see the webwork of lines they use for their theories, it undermines the idea that Wing Chin's is special or unique.

All these arts interacting with each other and sharing material, yet for some reason certain schools of Wing Chun seem to get far less than others, and worse will get locked into a pattern of centerline thinking and spend all their time on thoughts rather than building Wing Quan fa.

Worst of all, those people are the ones filling up the internet with videos about Wing Chun theories.  No need to name any, they sort of stick out to people who train alive.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 22, 2022)

Old Happy Tiger said:


> If you want to see an awesome weapon... Wing Chun Dragon Pole.


Yeah!  We discussed the 6.5 point pole earlier if you go through the older posts.  Dragon pole is basically a variant of Yang family (Song Dynasty, not Tai Chi) Fifth Brother Eight Trigram staff and some northern/western staff techniques, with some minor changes.

Because of that shared DNA, If you weren't told it was Wing Chun staff you could mistake it for others. I mistook Flying Crane's Tibetan White Crane staff video for Fujian White Crane because I leaned both in other styles that combined them 100 years ago, and they are more alike than different (only a relative handful of staff techniques that stand the test of time).

Centerline takes on a whole new meaning with a long staff, not to mention it becomes three dimensional.  And again I wonder why sooo many Wing Chun "sifus" either won't show their staff skills, or simply can't.  They learned some hand forms and the Character 2 Adduction stance, and from there to YouTube.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Hear me out partner.  Wing Chun centerline theory discussions are often about as fruitful as as wax bowel of them.  It's always a bit of the same thing.  It often ends poorly if there are any other arts in the room.
> 
> Wing Chun students always seem to hate to be told their exotic, Ming-era "theories" are really from much older arts, and in those arts when you see the webwork of lines they use for their theories, it undermines the idea that Wing Chin's is special or unique.
> 
> ...


I don’t know wing Chun well enough to verify any of that.  But I don’t see how posting a link to a Wikipedia entry about Tibetan martial arts is relevant.  Particularly without any commentary on how you believe it relates to wing Chun.  If you think it does, then make your case.  You are just posting up stuff without any explanation.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t know wing Chun well enough to verify any of that.  But I don’t see how posting a link to a Wikipedia entry about Tibetan martial arts is relevant.  Particularly without any commentary on how you believe it relates to wing Chun.  If you think it does, then make your case.  You are just posting up stuff without any explanation.


That last link wasn't Wikipedia dude, it's a beautifully rich and detailed Alchetron article on what we've been discussing, and my explanation is right there.

I'm being pretty concise, what is confusing you?  No shame in asking questions, I've been writing essays in good faith.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 22, 2022)

I don't think to strike out from the center of your chest is unique in WC. It also exists in the Xing Yi system.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> That last link wasn't Wikipedia dude, it's a beautifully rich and detailed Alchetron article on what we've been discussing, and my explanation is right there.
> 
> I'm being pretty concise, what is confusing you?  No shame in asking questions, I've been writing essays in good faith.


Sure but you linked to Wikipedia before that, and all those articles did was talk about what Tibetan martial arts are.  They didn’t make the connection to wing Chun.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure but you linked to Wikipedia before that, and all those articles did was talk about what Tibetan martial arts are.  They didn’t make the connection to wing Chun.


I mentioned the part of that Wiki article that was important to scroll down to, "Journey to the South", and the Ten Tigers, which is the hub that connects them to the arts of Yongchuanquan, as well as the Five southern family styles, which are basically compilations of all of these.   Snake, Dragon, Crane, years down the road.

The connection specific to Wing Chun is that a lot of what's shown online as "centerline theory" is considered such low level stuff in these other, older styles, one has to wonder why it's often promoted as advanced kung fu.  AS opposed to older Wing Chun training on the Plum Flower poles, with Plum Flower kicks that are very similar to both northern and southern Crane styles and a lot more advanced, yet absent from a lot of Wing Chun schools.

If this doesn't make sense to you still, I'm truly sorry.  This is the best I can do.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I mentioned the part of that Wiki article that was important to scroll down to, "Journey to the South", and the Ten Tigers, which is the hub that connects them to the arts of Yongchuanquan, as well as the Five southern family styles, which are basically compilations of all of these.   Snake, Dragon, Crane, years down the road.
> 
> The connection specific to Wing Chun is that a lot of what's shown online as "centerline theory" is considered such low level stuff in these other, older styles, one has to wonder why it's often promoted as advanced kung fu.  AS opposed to older Wing Chun training on the Plum Flower poles, with Plum Flower kicks that are very similar to both northern and southern Crane styles and a lot more advanced, yet absent from a lot of Wing Chun schools.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I think what you are doing is trying to support an agenda that is negative towards wing Chun by making claims such as what you post here: that you believe what some people apparently present as advanced wing Chun is low level in other systems.  You’ve made your feelings on wing Chun clear in the past.  I think you are pushing an agenda using connections that may not be able to be substantiated.


----------



## Old Happy Tiger (Mar 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I mentioned the part of that Wiki article that was important to scroll down to, "Journey to the South", and the Ten Tigers, which is the hub that connects them to the arts of Yongchuanquan, as well as the Five southern family styles, which are basically compilations of all of these.   Snake, Dragon, Crane, years down the road.
> 
> The connection specific to Wing Chun is that a lot of what's shown online as "centerline theory" is considered such low level stuff in these other, older styles, one has to wonder why it's often promoted as advanced kung fu.  AS opposed to older Wing Chun training on the Plum Flower poles, with Plum Flower kicks that are very similar to both northern and southern Crane styles and a lot more advanced, yet absent from a lot of Wing Chun schools.
> 
> If this doesn't make sense to you still, I'm truly sorry.  This is the best I can do.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Honestly, I think what you are doing is trying to support an agenda that is negative towards wing Chun by making claims such as what you post here: that you believe what some people apparently present as advanced wing Chun is low level in other systems.  You’ve made your feelings on wing Chun clear in the past.  I think you are pushing an agenda using connections that may not be able to be substantiated.


I think my record for sticking up for Wing Chun speaks for itself.  I rarely speak negatively about Wing Chun, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.  I'm a positively critical person of Wing Chun here who has actually trained it. You keep saying "I don't know enough to" ...and I've been nothing but helpful in response.  Now you're just throwing accusations.

This has nothing to do with my beliefs or feelings either.  You could just read the Wing Chun scholars I've talked about, or the article I shared on your own styles origin and relation to Wing Chun, or ask a question.

Instead you keep repeating a need for validation, but I've already done all that work for you.  The reading, the training, and connecting the dots between kung Fu directions and geometric patterns.  I spent the whole weekend marking passages in "Creation..." specifically for you.

I can see that effort wasted, because you're on the lookout for agendas.  Can't be helped, it's a common problem with students of kung fu.  Full cup and all.

One final effort for those with an actual interest in the thread topic.  This is my go to source for everything I've posted here and it substantiates every claim.  If you can't be bothered to read, don't blame me.





__





						The Creation of Wing Chun: A Social History of the Southern Chinese Martial Arts: Judkins, Benjamin N., Nielson, Jon: 9781438456935: Amazon.com: Books
					

The Creation of Wing Chun: A Social History of the Southern Chinese Martial Arts [Judkins, Benjamin N., Nielson, Jon] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Creation of Wing Chun: A Social History of the Southern Chinese Martial Arts



					www.amazon.com


----------



## geezer (Mar 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think my record for sticking up for Wing Chun speaks for itself.  I rarely speak negatively about Wing Chun, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.  I'm a positively critical person of Wing Chun here who has actually trained it. You keep saying "I don't know enough to" ...and I've been nothing but helpful in response.  Now you're just throwing accusations.
> 
> This has nothing to do with my beliefs or feelings either.  You could just read the Wing Chun scholars I've talked about, or the article I shared on your own styles origin and relation to Wing Chun, or ask a question.
> 
> ...


Well,_ Oily_ has made a few claims suggesting that most of the stuff Wing Chun is known for is also practiced in the other well known Southern Chinese systems, but that _other systems typically have additional stuff_ that is missing or has been lost from current Wing Chun systems.

And that sounds _critical._ But it's _not_, really. It's more _...descriptive _and accurate IMO. Especially regarding the Yip Man lineage, but it's also true, to some degree, of most other WC lineages. And to us WC devotees, that's not necessarily a _bad _thing.

_Judkins_ does a pretty good job of demythologizing the history of WC and putting it in its social context ...if you can handle his rather dry and academic approach. Personally, after completing my first college degree in social anthropology some 40 years ago, I got pretty sick of that approach and shifted my studies toward the visual arts. And, although I do appreciate what _Judkins _has done, my take on WC is more colored by the oral tradition, the folklore, and fables of its origin ...what I would call the _mythic soul_ of the system.

Interestingly, I find both the mythic and factual histories thematically more complementary than contradictory ...although, of course the mythic history is greatly exaggerated.

Now returning to the topic at hand, the story of Wing Chun is essentially one of a succession of great southern boxers who chose to pare away what they felt were low percentage movements to focus more deeply on a limited core of simple and effective close range striking techniques.

The vestiges of some of the other long bridge strikes and stances as well as close range grappling techniques are still there, and they are still taught by some teachers, but compared to most other traditional southern Chinese martial arts, WC's _strength_ ...and its weakness is its narrow focus.

Personally, I _like_ that. I have chose_n Yip Man lineage WC/WT/VT_ and likewise practice a simple and pragmatic brand of _Escrima_ I learned from Rene Latosa precisely for that reason. I like to train a limited curriculum in depth, and that works for me. Others will choose different approaches. It's all good.


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## Callen (Mar 22, 2022)

geezer said:


> Well,_ Oily_ has made a few claims suggesting that most of the stuff Wing Chun is known for is also practiced in the other well known Southern Chinese systems, but that _other systems typically have additional stuff_ that is missing or has been lost from current Wing Chun systems.
> 
> And that sounds _critical._ But it's _not_, really. It's more _...descriptive _and accurate IMO. Especially regarding the Yip Man lineage, but it's also true, to some degree, of most other WC lineages. And to us WC devotees, that's not necessarily a _bad _thing.
> 
> ...


If there was an "applause" emoji, I would have used it in response to this comment.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 22, 2022)

geezer said:


> Well,_ Oily_ has made a few claims suggesting that most of the stuff Wing Chun is known for is also practiced in the other well known Southern Chinese systems, but that _other systems typically have additional stuff_ that is missing or has been lost from current Wing Chun systems.
> 
> And that sounds _critical._ But it's _not_, really. It's more _...descriptive _and accurate IMO. Especially regarding the Yip Man lineage, but it's also true, to some degree, of most other WC lineages. And to us WC devotees, that's not necessarily a _bad _thing.
> 
> ...


I have a great medical book, written by neurologists, called_ Zen and the Brain._  I've never read the whole thing, it's over 800 pages.  Didn't really need to, I was already on my way down the path when I bought the thing.  Sometimes I throw it out on the coffee table during parties and family get-togethers.

I had the same issue with Judkins (350 pages, got halfway through, decided to start jumping around), but the nice thing about _that _book is that there's 70 pages of footnotes, glossary of terms, works cited, and index.  It's very easy to look stuff up.  It's easy to see where some schools decided "weapons aren't important anymore", or "I live in an apartment in Hong Kong and have no plum flower pole garden".  I get it.  Sometimes I even cry for those people.

The topic of the thread is Wing Chun's centerline, and I've been pointing out the history of that centerline.  And by the measure of a lot of other (arguably more effective in competition) styles, this is a _bad _thing. A lot of Wing Chun schools seem to be missing part of the web.  It's easy to focus on what's in front of you above waist height, which is what most Wing Chun schools are hell bent and focused on.

But let's see some Wing Chun that deals with attacks from behind, or to the legs, that involves resistance.  See?  Wing Chun's parent and sibling styles all have 360 degree, multiple levels of elevation attack and defense.  Bruce Lee was unhappy with Wing Chun, otherwise he would not have created Jeet Kuen Do.  A positive critic of the style, like myself.  So where does it go all go south, pun intended, with Wing Chun's centerline theory?  The burden for proof of its effectiveness is at stake.


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 23, 2022)

geezer said:


> Now returning to the topic at hand, the story of Wing Chun is essentially one of a succession of great southern boxers who chose to pare away what they felt were low percentage movements to focus more deeply on a limited core of simple and effective close range striking techniques.


I think this was a major step in the cyclic evolution of MA.  Things start off simple and tend to grow more complex over time.  This is true in biology, culture, religion and MA.  CMA has a very long history and over the centuries accumulated a lot of stuff.  Like an old whale gradually gets covered in barnacles, or grandma's living room gets cluttered with vases, photos, and other mementos collected over the years.  This is natural and to be expected, but occasionally a good housecleaning is needed to scrape off the excess, otherwise things grow too unwieldly.

Aside from this, as Taoist philosophy made its impact on CMA during the 1500/1600's, the art changed some - not to become more effective in combat, but to conform to the principles of Tao's world view.  Over time, more and more weights seem to get added on.  Eventually, all this accumulation detracts from the effectiveness - of whales swimming, of navigating grandma's house, and of MA as well.

I find it interesting that the beginnings of Wing Chun in the very early 1800's closely match the beginnings of karate in Okinawa and they seem to share a Fujian Provence connection as well.  (This in part based on a short Google search on Wing Chun history - my only direct exposure to CMA being a 2 minute conversation with Bruce Lee at a tournament my sensei put on when I was a teenager.)  Okinawan karate is also fairly bare bones with "a limited core of simple and effective close range striking techniques."  But nowhere in the history/legend of karate is a link between the two mentioned, to my knowledge.  Could just be the time had come for this "paring away" step in MA evolution to occur.


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## wckf92 (Mar 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I mentioned the part of that Wiki article that was important to scroll down to, "Journey to the South", and the Ten Tigers, which is the hub that connects them to the arts of Yongchuanquan, as well as the Five southern family styles, which are basically compilations of all of these.   Snake, Dragon, Crane, years down the road.
> 
> The connection specific to Wing Chun is that a lot of what's shown online as "centerline theory" is considered such low level stuff in these other, older styles, one has to wonder why it's often promoted as advanced kung fu.  AS opposed to older Wing Chun training on the Plum Flower poles, with Plum Flower kicks that are very similar to both northern and southern Crane styles and a lot more advanced, yet absent from a lot of Wing Chun schools.
> 
> ...



Do you know if this book is still in print these days?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 23, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> But nowhere in the history/legend of karate is a link between the two mentioned, to my knowledge.


Between Okinawan karate and Wing Chun?  That's because the history of the Ryukyu was scrubbed clean of Chinese history by the Japanese Empire, but it can still be seen pretty easily in the styles themselves and how they're taught.  Japan was ultimately unsuccessful in dominating Okinawan culture, not to mention the rest of the Pacific, which is how the real history re-emerged.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 23, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Do you know if this book is still in print these days?


It is, actually.  You can purchase brand new hard and soft copies and used on Amazon.









						Northern Sil Lum #7
					

Sil Lum #7 is a lesser known but more interesting beginner's form of the Sil Lum system. Basically there are 40 moves that introduce fundamental strikes and kicks, both long and short range, utilizing footwork in the four directions of the petals of the plum flower (north, south, east and west.)...



					books.google.com
				




That's Wing Lam, the Hung Kuen master on the cover and one of the largest online Kung Fu retailers.  I believe he has his own publishing which is how he's able to keep a lot of these really old books in print.  Siu Lum #7 was first printed in 84!

And notice this (beginner) set is only 4 direction, 5 pole compared to the previous 5 direction, 6 pole plum (the last pole being the target).


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## wckf92 (Mar 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It is, actually.  You can purchase brand new hard and soft copies and used on Amazon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting. Thanks man!


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 23, 2022)




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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> View attachment 28272


Lol!


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## hunschuld (Apr 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> But let's see some Wing Chun that deals with attacks from behind, or to the legs, that involves resistance. See? Wing Chun's parent and sibling styles all have 360 degree, multiple levels of elevation attack and defense


 The joy of only reading  site once a month. You never what ROFLMAO things will you find when you come back.

So wing chun peeps are befuddled and defenseless if attacked from the side or behind! We just stand still and face the front.  If schools don't teach the complete system   or keep secrets including the throwing aspects the the fault is with teachers not the system


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 6, 2022)

hunschuld said:


> The joy of only reading  site once a month. You never what ROFLMAO things will you find when you come back.
> 
> So wing chun peeps are befuddled and defenseless if attacked from the side or behind! We just stand still and face the front.  If schools don't teach the complete system   or keep secrets including the throwing aspects the the fault is with teachers not the system


Yes, generally, they are pretty defenseless with few exceptions.  Which is the state of Wing Chun today compared to its peers inside and outside of China. 

To prove that ROFLMAO point, let's look at some Wing Chun throws.

...

LOL, That was fast.  And I think it proves your other point, most Wing Chun teachers are befuddled and defenseless themselves.  If they're not, it's pretty obvious to anyone with decent contact training or competition experience.  

We don't even have to go back to the first UFCs where all the Wing Chun fighters were demolished.  It's still happening, largely due to poor teachers, like you said.  You're one smart cookie.


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes, generally, they are pretty defenseless with few exceptions.  Which is the state of Wing Chun today compared to its peers inside and outside of China.
> To prove that ROFLMAO point, let's look at some Wing Chun throws.
> ...
> LOL, That was fast...


Hmmm....  the Wing Chun you've been exposed to didn't have throws?_ Really? _

Odd because that's _not _my experience. You might look up Wang Zhi Peng. He's integrated _a lot _of throwing into what he teaches.

Here's the first one that popped up on a quick search of YouTube:


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 9, 2022)

geezer said:


> Hmmm....  the Wing Chun you've been exposed to didn't have throws?_ Really? _
> 
> Odd because that's _not _my experience. You might look up Wang Zhi Peng. He's integrated _a lot _of throwing into what he teaches.
> 
> Here's the first one that popped up on a quick search of YouTube:


Throws are not typical to any of the common Wing Chun lineages, and real san da practice in Wing Chun is super rare.  It happens and that video is a good example but you'd be hard pressed to find many more like it.

Wang Zhi Peng is an exception (largely because his style is not just Wing Chun, he has cross trained extensively in Sanshou and Yiquan (with its Swimming Dragon forms)).

End of day, Wing Chun just doesn't have as much representation in Sanda and other pressure competitions compared to its peers.  I wish they did, but there is too much dogma in the art (Judkins points out that of all the Southern arts, Wing Chun has a particular issue with this).  A lot of Wing Chun students would say that video isn't even Wing Chun. They'd be both right and wrong.

True masters are able to easily bridge their arts, that's how good grappling makes its way into a Wing Chun school.  I know a few people who get this in Wing Chun, but they are uncommon.

For Wing Chun to have a good reputation for it, they kind of need to own it better.  Maybe someday. The dragons forms are mysterious and infinite after all.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 9, 2022)

And not to pick on Wing Chun too hard (it's from a place of true love) but in all honesty part of the core issue with its rep as a grappling art is due to the vast amount of silly theorycrafting videos that community puts out.

Rather than just stick to the basics of southern CMA and the styles composite animals/elements, which are as simple as possible, We get hit with vide after video about how the WC centerline beats boxing, grappling, and so on.  There's a southern Chinese saying about talking with your fists instead of your mouth.  At some point the theory guys forgot the hardest part of learning Wing Chun is the actual combat.

Guoshu is probably a big factor also.  By the time they organized in the early 20th century, Wing Chun was very rare, not widely practiced and so it never got the same exposure as other arts (nationally), until Bruce Lee made it famous, and even then it wasn't as popular as when Donnie Yen came on screen (which is a funny side story if you know anything about flying in and out of Hong Kong).


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## geezer (Apr 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> And not to pick on Wing Chun too hard (it's from a place of true love) but in all honesty part of the core issue with its rep as a grappling art is due to the vast amount of silly *theorycrafting *videos that community puts out.


_Theorycrafting_, eh. That's a new word for me. Seems spot on too. I believe that WC/WT blends well with grappling, in fact when i was younger, I found it worked well with basic wrestling ...so why not with other grappling and throwing arts too? But at age 66 with some back issues, I'll leave that to younger people. 

Unfortunately, IMO, the dogmatic way most WC/WT is taught pretty much drives good, capable and creative younger people away from the art. Which brings us to the next quote:


Oily Dragon said:


> There's a southern Chinese saying about talking with your fists instead of your mouth.


Lack of resistance-based training and competitions has replaced those who talk with their _fists instead of their mouths_ with those whose talk will get you _a fist in the mouth._ 

Now, like many martial arts enthusiasts, I'm really a hobbyist, not a fighter by temperament. But every art needs a core of fighter types to keep the art honest. Once, WC had some guys like that. 

Now days we seem to be on a long slide down into incompetence, irrelevance, and eventual extinction.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2022)

geezer said:


> I believe that WC/WT blends well with grappling,


If you can use double Tan Shou to separate your opponent's arms away from his head, you can achieve a head lock. You can then take him down with your leg skill.


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## hunschuld (Apr 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can use double Tan Shou to separate your opponent's arms away from his head, you can achieve a head lock. You can then take him down with your leg skill.


I am assuming you mean separate the opponents arms from your head not their head. ie. the opponent has you in a tie or plum  etc? I would comment further if I was sure I understood you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2022)

hunschuld said:


> I am assuming you mean separate the opponents arms from your head not their head. ie. the opponent has you in a tie or plum  etc? I would comment further if I was sure I understood you.


To separate your opponent's arm from your head, the elbow pressing works better.







You extend your

- left Tan Shou between your opponent's right arm and his head.
- right Tan Shou between your opponent's left arm and his head.

Your left arm wrap around his right arm. Your right arm wrap around his head.


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## hunschuld (Apr 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To separate your opponent's arm from your head, the elbow pressing works better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure ok  these are things that can work however you are looking at this as a throwing art person first. I In example one the opponents arm you are not elbow pressing has the inside position and  should be using a hooking /circular punch . If he uses his waist properly he will easily break the grip and land a powerful strike to the exposed side of your head.The waist action will also change the position so that he can lop the elbow press or huen away from it.
 In example 2 if you can headlock you can strike. Wing chun should perform the left arm wrap but the right will strike and the right leg will sweep /step through the opponents right leg thus striking and throwing simultaneously instead of just throwing


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## Callen (Apr 12, 2022)

geezer said:


> Now days we seem to be on a long slide down into incompetence, irrelevance, and eventual extinction.


It just separates the wheat from the chaff, like it has always done throughout the history of gong fu. It will likely still be here long after we're gone.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 12, 2022)

hunschuld said:


> In example 2 if you can headlock you can strike.


- A take down requires 2 or 3 contact points. 
- A strike only requires 1 contact point. 

If you can take your opponent down, you can punch him. The other way around may not be true.

The head lock is to use your forearm inside edge to hit on the back of your opponent's head. It can be a knock down strike by itself.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 15, 2022)

geezer said:


> _Theorycrafting_, eh. That's a new word for me. Seems spot on too. I believe that WC/WT blends well with grappling, in fact when i was younger, I found it worked well with basic wrestling ...so why not with other grappling and throwing arts too? But at age 66 with some back issues, I'll leave that to younger people.
> 
> Unfortunately, IMO, the dogmatic way most WC/WT is taught pretty much drives good, capable and creative younger people away from the art. Which brings us to the next quote:
> 
> ...



Ali once claimed he wouldn't travel across the world to kill poor people, but he'd be hell driven to do it to fight any other fighter willing to fight on the earth.

Howard Cosell once said the man was a threat to his toupee.


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