# Ninjutsu



## shiro (Jul 29, 2004)

I have found some of the letters on this site interesting, But it seems to Me some people jump alittle to quick with their opinions.

I am a student of Mr. Hayes and find Him to be a Great Instructor,and Martial Artist! He teaches a side of the Martial Arts that very few Instructors do(not just Bujinkan).

We seek not to walk in the footsteps of the old ones We seek the things they sought!
Best wishes everyone.


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## Shogun (Jul 29, 2004)

> He teaches a side of the Martial Arts that very few Instructors do


Would that be the Toshindo side?

I have some of his "classical" series of Taijutsu. good stuff. dont want to test though, cause I be banned from Bujinkan.


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## shiro (Jul 29, 2004)

No that is not what I am refering to.

I do not take His toshin do But I have come to understand it alot better over the last few years.

Do You know Mr. Hayes.Or trained with Him? Where do You train?


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## gmunoz (Jul 30, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> I have found some of the letters on this site interesting, But it seems to Me some people jump alittle to quick with their opinions.
> 
> I am a student of Mr. Hayes and find Him to be a Great Instructor,and Martial Artist! He teaches a side of the Martial Arts that very few Instructors do(not just Bujinkan).
> 
> ...


Shiro,

As a student of Mr. Hayes, please elaborate on your training with him.  Are you in Dayton?


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## Flatlander (Jul 30, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> I have found some of the letters on this site interesting, But it seems to Me some people jump alittle to quick with their opinions.
> 
> I am a student of Mr. Hayes and find Him to be a Great Instructor,and Martial Artist! He teaches a side of the Martial Arts that very few Instructors do(not just Bujinkan).
> 
> ...


Shiro, welcome to the board!  Enjoy your stay here.  Martial Talk is a place for a friendly discussion of the arts, with a calm and laid back atmosphere.  Look around, and you'll find a wealth of good knowledge spread throughout the various forums here.  Happy posting


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## shiro (Jul 30, 2004)

I am new to this site so I have had to go back and read some of the letters to up date myself. I had alot of Questions about Mr. Hayes relationship with Mr. Hatsumi
Mr. Hayes does go to Japan to train still. Does teach His modern Toshin Do and still gives Out Bujinkan Rank grades. Most of my Questions were answered in the New revised Book Secrets from the Ninja rand Master.
Two Questions
1. Why would Hatsumi write this book with Mr.Hayes?And then update it?
2. Why hasen't Mr. Hatsumi wrote books with anyone else other than(Grandmaster book of Ninja training)?
I have come to believe Mr.Hatsumi cares greatly for Mr Hayes and Mr.Hayes for Mr.Hatsumi.


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## Shogun (Jul 30, 2004)

The DVD I use is "classical" but I am not sure if it is Bujinkan or Toshindo...



either way, I can tell the difference. I thought only his new stuff was Toshindo, but I cant take a chance on Booj banning.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 30, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> 2. Why hasen't Mr. Hatsumi wrote books with anyone else other than.



I believe he has.  Jack Hoban mentions one he worked on with Hatsumi on his site, and (I may be mistaken, someone else could correct this if I am wrong) "Understand? Good Play" was written with the assistance of Benjamin Cole...

Its simply not true that Hayes is the only one Hatsumi has done books with.


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## Shogun (Jul 30, 2004)

He wrote a forward for Stephen Turnbull


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## Cryozombie (Jul 30, 2004)

Heres a small list from Amazon:

The Way Of The Ninja: Secret Techniques
by Masaaki; Hatsumi, Ben Jones  

Stick Fighting 
by Masaaki Hatsumi, Quintin Chambers

Understand? Good. Play!--Words of Consequence 
by Masaaki Hatsumi, Benjamin Cole 

Ninpo: Wisdom for Life 
by Masaaki Hatsumi, Joe Maurantonio


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 30, 2004)

Good information folks.

Can we get the names of these books, perhaps, and the DVD.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 30, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Good information folks.
> 
> Can we get the names of these books, perhaps, and the DVD.



Look at my post above this... I posted the names of the books


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## Shogun (Jul 30, 2004)

Stephen Turnbull's book was called "Ninja"    It has a subtitle but I dont know what it is.


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## Enson (Jul 30, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> either way, I can tell the difference. I thought only his new stuff was Toshindo, but I cant take a chance on Booj banning.


you can do it in secret...:angel:
maybe we can find some answers here... if not i still think its a cool picture. i can't read it so maybe someone can interpet.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_178288//Yahoo!+Photo+Album/hatsumi1---1.gif?gr63_CBBN7TVABZs


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## Cryozombie (Jul 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> you can do it in secret...:angel:
> maybe we can find some answers here... if not i still think its a cool picture. i can't read it so maybe someone can interpet.
> http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_178288//Yahoo!+Photo+Album/hatsumi1---1.gif?gr63_CBBN7TVABZs



Looks to me like its the names of the nine schools...


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## Shogun (Jul 30, 2004)

> you can do it in secret...


Not sure if that would work.?.



> No that is not what I am refering to.
> 
> I do not take His toshin do But I have come to understand it alot better over the last few years.
> 
> Do You know Mr. Hayes.Or trained with Him? Where do You train?


Are you a student in the metaphorical sense? or do you train directly under SKH? I dont know Hayes personally, but, like I mentioned, have some of his home courses. My Ninjutsu training is Done thru a Shodan in my area. I also practice Aikijutsu, Tushkahoma, Jujutsu (shodan), and some backyard wrestling. I have_ some_ experience in TKD, Karate, Eskrima (cabales), Hapkido, JKD, BJJ, and various bits and peices that I did for like a week.

What kind of Training do you have?

Cheers,
Kyle


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## shiro (Jul 30, 2004)

All of the books You mentioned was not coaurthered they were translations.
The DvDs are from Mr. Hayes Classical Warrior training Study course(see quest web page for info)
I  think Mr. Hatsumi says it all in the updated part of the book point blank.
If You have not read the new book please do It is very good. 
Thank You


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## shiro (Jul 30, 2004)

17yrs training in Shotokan Karate and Shaolin Kung-Fu 14yrs in Seiei Ju-Jutsu, 1yr in Aikido, Around 4yrs in Ninjutsu(Budo Tai Jutsu) 3yrs under Mr. Hayes not long distance.
Who is the Shodan?
I hope this helps clar up Your Questions Shogun.
Thank You


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## Don Roley (Jul 31, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> I have come to believe Mr.Hatsumi cares greatly for Mr Hayes and Mr.Hayes for Mr.Hatsumi.



Have you asked Hatsumi personally about the matter? If you care enough to try to convince other people that Hastsumi likes Hayes to start a thread, why not take the time to challenge your convictions and ask Hatsumi in private about the matter?

Or perhaps you can ask people who were at the Honbu just after this years Tai Kai what Hatsumi said. Do you think that every last person who was there would lie about it? Can you find anyone who was there that disagrees with what has been reported here?

There has been many, many flame wars here. This matter has been discussed and there has been a lot of ill will generated by it. It would perhaps be better if you sought out Hatsumi or one of the people who were at the announcement and challenge your convictions by asking them rather than open up yet another can of worms.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 31, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> All of the books You mentioned was not coaurthered they were translations.
> 
> Thank You



Uh... yeah.  

Quintin Chambers did not TRANSLATE Stick fighting he co-authored it... Atsuko Chambers did the Translation.  Check page 10 of said book.  it referes to Hatsumi and Chambers both as "Authors" and Atsuko is aknowlaged for translating.

I cant speak for the others off hand, but I have stick fighting in my hand as I write this... 

You're Welcome.


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## shiro (Jul 31, 2004)

If You have one of the Classical DvDs Taijutsu,Kenjutsu,bojutsu,Shurikenjutsu KihonThen those are considered  Mr.Hayes Classical Warrior Arts training course. The ToShin Do Course Says Mountains of Strenth,Waves of power, Lighting Strikes e.t.c. From what I can tell the Classical Warrior training is What Mr. Hayes learned From Mr. Hatsumi for the most part, Only they know for sure> Good Luck





			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> The DVD I use is "classical" but I am not sure if it is Bujinkan or Toshindo...
> 
> 
> 
> either way, I can tell the difference. I thought only his new stuff was Toshindo, but I cant take a chance on Booj banning.


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## shiro (Jul 31, 2004)

[I have not ask Mr. Hatsumi. I read the words he said in the Grandmaster book of warrior training. I was at the last TaiKai I do not know any of the Instructors You are refering to that heard Mr. Hatsumi say anything about Mr. Hayes If You could tell Me their Name I will try to contact them and hear that side of it. I was by no means trying to open  a can of worms. I have no ill will toward anyone Quest or Bujinkan. I will say I Was at the last two TaiKais( met Mr. Hatsumi once) And did get some bad looks from a few not many while wearing my QuestCenter Gi. I am lucky to train with Mr.Hayes and In the Bujinkan and Have no bad blood toward either side. I am sorry If You thought I was trying to start trouble. I just wanted people who are not lucky enough to travle to Japan and be with Mr. Hatsumi there is a book that Has His feels on the subject they can buy. If You like You can send me a private mesage about this matter further . Thank YouQUOTE=Don Roley]Have you asked Hatsumi personally about the matter? If you care enough to try to convince other people that Hastsumi likes Hayes to start a thread, why not take the time to challenge your convictions and ask Hatsumi in private about the matter?

Or perhaps you can ask people who were at the Honbu just after this years Tai Kai what Hatsumi said. Do you think that every last person who was there would lie about it? Can you find anyone who was there that disagrees with what has been reported here?

There has been many, many flame wars here. This matter has been discussed and there has been a lot of ill will generated by it. It would perhaps be better if you sought out Hatsumi or one of the people who were at the announcement and challenge your convictions by asking them rather than open up yet another can of worms.[/QUOTE]


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## Don Roley (Jul 31, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> [I have not ask Mr. Hatsumi.



Then you should ask him if you really want to know the truth and are not merely blindly defending Hayes. You certainly should not be relying on a book that was written well before I met my wife. People's feelings change you know.

Check the back posts and you will find at least one person who was there when Hatsumi made his announcement. My advice is to contact these people privately. I know that certain Japanese will give you their true feelings if you ask them politely in private and not in public.


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## shiro (Jul 31, 2004)

Let me put this in order

1.The book(revised and Updated) just came out in 2003. I take it You have not read it. (One of His student and Quest Center owner takes and passes His Godan test given by Mr. Hatsumi)
2. I must be missing the one person You mention in the past letters here because I don't see it, Please help Me on this.

3. Who are the other people You are refering to?

4.I am not blindly defending Mr. Hayes I have listen to what He has said and what Mr. Hatsumi has stated (in print)

5. And as I said before I have no problem with ither side. 
Thanks for Your help


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## kenanderson (Jul 31, 2004)

Mr. Shiro,

Here are three people that you can contact in reference to the announcement at the recent tai kai:

Ed Lomax
Luke Molitor
Ben Cole

I refuse to put their e-mail addresses out on the internet, but you are welcome to PM me. 

- Ken Anderson


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## Enson (Jul 31, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> Let me put this in order
> 
> 1.The book(revised and Updated) just came out in 2003. I take it You have not read it. (One of His student and Quest Center owner takes and passes His Godan test given by Mr. Hatsumi)


just because it has been revised doesn't mean a whole lot. what part was revised. i could still be most of the old content but just have some new pictures. 

i'm suprised that you and don don't know each other. it seems like you would have not been let into the taikai with your quest logo on your gi. from what i have read here no one is allowed to train with skh that is in the buji. doesn't that work vice versa? again more questions are starting to stir within me.:idunno: it sounds to me (although i'm just a spectator in the buji thing) like... don't give your money to anyone else outside the buji for training, but others can give their money to us. i am assuming here. i will happily retract my statement if someone clears this up for me.:jediduel:


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## Shogun (Jul 31, 2004)

> Who is the Shodan?


click here



I hope we can get the confusion out of whether or not Booj members and Quest members are allowed to train ateach others events. from what I know, SKH's Toshindo is "Sanctioned" by Hatsumi, but I am not sure if his classical menjo come from Hatsumi. Does everyone know that SKH will certify one in certain areas of classical Ninjutsu?

could he do that if he was in the bujinkan?


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## shiro (Jul 31, 2004)

1st Thank You Mr. Anderson for letting me know some names I will contact them.
2nd Mr. Hayes Toshindo does not get cert. by Mr. Hatsumi.  Only his Shadows training goes through Mr. Hatsumi(If You wish).
3. The book has new info with Mr. Hayes talking to Mr. Hatsumi Since He started Toshin-Do and How Mr. Hatsumi feels about the confustion.
4. I train with Mr. Hayes and I did go to the TaiKai 02/03 with my Quest Gi on(the only one). and My rank does come From Mr. Hatsumi in His Bujinkan System My rank From Mr Hayes is for His Warrior Classical Training(Check Quest web page.
Thanks Latter


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## Deaf (Jul 31, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> 1st Thank You Mr. Anderson for letting me know some names I will contact them.
> 2nd Mr. Hayes Toshindo does not get cert. by Mr. Hatsumi.  Only his Shadows training goes through Mr. Hatsumi(If You wish).
> 3. The book has new info with Mr. Hayes talking to Mr. Hatsumi Since He started Toshin-Do and How Mr. Hatsumi feels about the confustion.
> 4. I train with Mr. Hayes and I did go to the TaiKai 02/03 with my Quest Gi on(the only one). and My rank does come From Mr. Hatsumi in His Bujinkan System My rank From Mr Hayes is for His Warrior Classical Training(Check Quest web page.
> Thanks Latter




Well sorry to bust your bubble here Shiro but that quote for that update on the book is actually quite old.  In fact it was back when SKH took a bunch of his students to Japan (when skh first started his Toshindo deal).  I can't remember the exact date however if I remember correctly, this was about 6 or 7 years ago.  Why SKH is just NOW publishing the update?  Who knows and frankly I'll keep my opinion to myself on that one.

So you train with SKH and you are enjoying your training.  Then good for you and I wish you the best of luck.  However please keep in mind as you seem to be doing that SKH is no longer Bujinkan nor is he affiliated with Bujinkan per Hatsumi Sensei request.


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## gmunoz (Jul 31, 2004)

*An article I came across:*

*Rumors and Worries*

A Musubi Journal interview with Stephen K. Hayes

Some confusion has arisen in the past year in regards to just who is and is not a recognized and legitimate teacher of Dr. Masaaki Hatsumis Bujinkan Dojo martial arts. Claims and counterclaims have appeared in forums on the Internet and the popular commercial on-line services. Many members have written to us with queries as to who to believe. They want to know what is true. Some seem to fear that the new Quest Centers are evidence that our founder Stephen K. Hayes has somehow parted company with his original teacher Masaaki Hatsumi. Others claim that Masaaki Hatsumi no longer recognizes Stephen K. Hayes as his senior-most Western Hemisphere student. In the following interview, Nine Gates Institute founder Stephen K. Hayes comments on the controversy: 

Musubi Journal: What is at the bottom line beneath all these rumors?

Stephen K. Hayes: The bottom line is that Masaaki Hatsumi is my teacher. You just cant change the facts. Yes, I was awarded a graduate certificate of program completion several years ago, but I still see my martial arts teacher each year. He still continues to endorse my teaching work here in the West. 

My wife Rumiko received her Shihan senior master teacher degree from Masaaki Hatsumi. We are still very much a part of the family. 

MJ: How is Masaaki Hatsumi involved with your Quest Centers?

SKH: I think of our Quest Centers as our tribute to my teacher Masaaki Hatsumi. They are a salute to his vision of bringing the once-hidden Japanese warrior arts to a world sorely in need of higher ideals. It is well-documented that I went to Japan twenty-some years ago and discovered the ninja art of Masaaki Hatsumi. After years of training in a tiny little Noda City dojo with an obscure master of the martial arts, I wrote a series of books that blew the lid off thirty-four generations of secrecy. Because of those books, the western world then had access to Masaaki Hatsumi and his Bujinkan Dojo martial arts. When I left Japan to move back to the United States in the early 1980s, the Bujinkan was unheard of. Within two years, I had put the Bujinkan on the map to the point where the 1980s were referred to in martial arts circles as the decade of the ninja. Today, as a result of that work, thousands of people call themselves students of Masaaki Hatsumis Bujinkan Dojo. That is my way of saying thank you to my teacher. 

MJ: How are your new Quest Centers structured?

SKH: At the October 1996 Festival in Ohio, we made public our final plans for the establishment of a group of martial arts schools united in their approach to teaching Kasumi-An Bujinkan Dojo taijutsu as a form of self-protection and personal empowerment. We have come up with an approach that will allow people in many situations to participate. At this point, we are committed to creating a group of schools that fit into the two following categories: 

Schools Owned by Stephen K. Hayes: November 1996 was the debut of a network of my Stephen K. Hayes Quest Centers in Ohio and California. These and further training halls will be staffed by teaching professionals who share my vision of what martial arts training is supposed to be. Far beyond the conventional stereotype of martial arts schools as we know them today, our new Quest Centers focus on all the technologies that allow us to evolve into tatsujin, or fully actualized human beings operating effectively in all areas of life.

We train and license member schools to use documented and scripted taijutsu self-protection martial arts and Life Enhancement Technologies lecture, discussion, and meditation curriculum programs for each week of the students training from 1st day white belt through 1st degree black belt. We train and license member schools to use documented and scripted school management programs for each task and employee position in the school. We provide member schools with access to a full line of professionally-designed sales tools and products bearing our center name and logo, instructor training at one of our training centers, and construction guides for building new training centers in a manner similar to my own. 

MJ: What do these new Quest Centers mean in regards to your relationship with Hatsumi Senseis Bujinkan Dojo? 

SKH: Hatsumi Sensei has been my martial arts teacher for over twenty years now. Nothing can change the reality that I got what I got under his direction, despite these silly rumors on the Internet. I still issue Bujinkan Dojo degree licenses from Hatsumi Sensei to my senior students. 

MJ: But you are calling them Quest Centers and not Bujinkan Dojos.

SKH: Our Quest Centers actually make up an advanced education system designed to lead to fully developed human beings. Bujinkan Dojo taijutsu for self-protection is one thing that we offer at the Quest Centers, one part but not the total package. The new centers involve much more than just the physical actions of taijutsu. Therefore, the name of the Quest Centers reflects more than merely kick and grab technique, and so it would not be accurate to label these centers Bujinkan Dojos. 

MJ: Some people interpret this as you breaking away from Masaaki Hatsumi. Why is it that some people like to claim that you no longer train with Hatsumi Sensei? 

SKH: Well, the truth is that I have been very fortunate in my life. I have attained the kind of success in life that I set out to attain thirty years ago. I literally made my dreams come true; Black Belt Hall of Fame, seventeen published books, friendship with movie stars and powerful people, being asked to travel with the Dalai Lama as security escort, not to mention the obvious worldly symbols of success that my family displays. Of course, all the notoriety that comes along with success creates envy and resentment in those who see their own lives lacking in power and success. Instead of being inspired by the work of their superiors to strive for greater possibilities, the envious attempt to pull down those above them. 

MJ: Why is there so much confusion about your relationship with Masaaki Hatsumi?

SKH: Masaaki Hatsumis Bujinkan dojo training hall network is not set up along conventional Japanese martial art organizational lines. If we were set up like the judo Kodokan or the aikido hombu, where all members are supervised by a central authority, the teachers of Dr. Hatsumis martial art would operate in a well-defined and authentic hierarchy. As it is, Bujinkan license holders are strung together only in their claims of having been trained by the grandmaster or one of his senior instructors. Oddly enough when compared to other martial traditions in Japan, there is no enforcement of any system of respect for seniority. 

MJ: It wasnt that way in the old days, was it? Why isnt there the kind of respect for seniors that we would expect in the Japanese martial arts? 

SKH: Dr. Hatsumi has set up his system in such a manner that all teaching members operate autonomously of one another. I understand that this seems to be the same sort of set-up that Bruce Lee left behind for his Jeet-kune-do. Nobody knows what is true. This is very confusing to people outside of the art, in that there do appear to be contradictory claims as to just who is legitimately licensed and who isnt. The positive effect of such an unorganized organization structure, however, is that all teachers claiming to be authorized by the grandmaster have the responsibility to interpret the art and demonstrate its power in their daily lives rather than simply rely on political hierarchy to support their claims of mastery. It also gives us all a lot of freedom, something that is crucially necessary if this art is going to move into the Western world as a thing of value and not just an odd hobby for eccentrics. The bad news is that there is a lot of confusion. The words freedom and chaos describe the same phenomenon.

MJ: What about people who claim that you do not spend much time in Japan anymore? 

SKH: This is somewhat true, in that I spend more time in the West now than I do in Japan. After graduating from the program, it was my duty to set out into the world to test out what I had learned. Japan is now like a wonderful retreat for me. It is always a refreshing escape to go back, but my work lies here in the West. 

MJ: But some people say that they are in Japan learning things from Masaaki Hatsumi now and you are not. 

SKH: Yes. That is true. It was my turn to be there studying in the 1970s. Now twenty years later in the 1990s they are going through the lessons I went through when I was back there at their stage of training. As a graduate, it is my job to test out and prove in the world what I learned when I was a young man there as a student. 

MJ: Dont you feel that you are missing something by not being there in Japan now? 

SKH: Nostalgically, I consider Japan my hearts home. I really enjoy it there, and of course half of my daughters family lives there. It would be fun to give up all the challenge and work here in the West and go back, but it would not be proper for me to live in Japan at this point. It is like graduating from a university. After all the degrees, it is time to go out in the world and see what you can do. If I were still to be in Japan going through the same lessons again and again, I would be hiding from the challenges and responsibilities of life. People look down on the professional student who never leaves the classroom to face real life. No, this is where I belong. There is much important work to be done, and we are just now setting things in motion. 

- Stephen K. Hayes​


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## shiro (Jul 31, 2004)

Deaf if that is true than How is He able to give out rank through Mr. Hatsumis Bujinkan org? Today Now 
The interviews took place in 1998 two Years after Mr. Hayes started His ToShin Do System. Either way Mr. Hatsumis Talks about His relationship with Mr.Hayes and the rumors people keep spreading. 
Thank You for Your input.


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## Shogun (Aug 1, 2004)

So if I tested, I would recieve rank in Bujinkan? odd. kinda.



What would be cool is that I could finally get my Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu credentials. sweet.



Oh, and Don, I found a name. Who is Doug Wilson? I know he trained under Oguri for a year, but other than that....?



And what is up with the themes for Bujinkan? like how 2002 was TYR themed.......!?!


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## shiro (Aug 1, 2004)

Only through His Shadow of Iga class not His classical warrior course.
Each Year Mr. Hatsumi focuses on a specific Ryuha.


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## gmunoz (Aug 1, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> Only through His Shadow of Iga class not His classical warrior course.
> Each Year Mr. Hatsumi focuses on a specific Ryuha.


 
Is there any way you can scan your credential from Mr. Hayes that is certified by Dr. Hatsumi and post it to this forum somehow for folks to see?  Mr. Hayes has said on many occasions that he is extends licenses certified in Bujinkan by Dr. Hatsumi.  Let us all see it if possible.  That would clear things up real good.


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## Deaf (Aug 1, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> Deaf if that is true than How is He able to give out rank through Mr. Hatsumis Bujinkan org? Today Now
> The interviews took place in 1998 two Years after Mr. Hayes started His ToShin Do System. Either way Mr. Hatsumis Talks about His relationship with Mr.Hayes and the rumors people keep spreading.
> Thank You for Your input.




Well I'm not going to start a freakin flame war on this subject but just ignore the fact that I was there.  And no they are not giving rank from Hatsumi Sensei at all but then again, nevermind the rantings of someone who used to be there.

Enjoy your Toshindo training.


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## gmunoz (Aug 1, 2004)

Would that be considered a "has been" or "used to be?"


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 1, 2004)

Play nice


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## kenanderson (Aug 1, 2004)

To all, 

This announcement was made in March/April 2004, not at any of the taikais in 2003. 

- Ken Anderson


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## gmunoz (Aug 1, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Would that be considered a "has been" or "used to be?"


That was intended as a joke.  Take no offense please. Life is serious enough as a it is.


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## shiro (Aug 1, 2004)

I can not scan it The cert is to be for my scanner, it is around 17.5 inch by 12 inch sorry. It did come from Mr. Hatsumi with His seal It is just like the ones Richard Von Donk give for His ABD schools allthe kyu ranks should look the same except for wear it states Your kyu.
Has anyone here ever emailed Mr. Hayes to ask Him for Your self? Or just email Him and ask.
Go to the dayton Quest Center call or ask by email
Thank You
Mr. Anderson Have sent those emails just waiting on a reply thanks


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## Shogun (Aug 2, 2004)

> Only through His Shadow of Iga class not His classical warrior course.


How is this offered? I didnt think he did it anymore.....?



> Each Year Mr. Hatsumi focuses on a specific Ryuha.


I know. I was wondering more like "why"? or which ryuha have been done? etc



> Mr. Anderson Have sent those emails just waiting on a reply thanks


Could we possibly get the outgoing message posted here? that would start.....

ps SKH's quest centers are slow to respond. It usually takes 3-5 days. must have lots of mail, or are lazy. lol.


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## shiro (Aug 2, 2004)

I have emailed the people Mr. Anderson has given me. No one has emailed me back with info.
I am not sure why people like to attack Mr.Hayes I myself am greatful He brought this art to America and I have a chanc to study it with Him.
Thank You for everyones input here and Any questions that I feel I can help with I will.


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## gmunoz (Aug 2, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> How is this offered? I didnt think he did it anymore.....?
> 
> 
> I know. I was wondering more like "why"? or which ryuha have been done? etc
> ...


Called and spoke with Don at Quest Center Hombu in Dayton.  I inquired about the Shadows of Iga and he did confirm that this class is offered through the Dayton Hombu.  It is similar, although much more extensive, than the Khihon video curriculum offered by Mr. Hayes.  Too much material and can't be exactly put all in a DVD curriculum.  Don also confirmed that although it is not a part of the Buji organization, it is definitely a certification signed and endorsed by both An-Shu Stephen K. Hayes and Soke Masaaki Hatsmui.  

Hope this info helps.


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## gmunoz (Aug 2, 2004)

Oh yeah, it took me about 30 seconds to connect via telephone and 3 minutes to get my questions answered - not 3 to 5 days.  About being lazy? I couldn't tell by phone. Could be though.


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## Shogun (Aug 2, 2004)

> I am not sure why people like to attack Mr.Hayes


Nothing I've said was in the direction of an attack. I am supporting SK hayes. I just want the truth. Before Shiro and gmunoz had accounts here on MT, I was one of the only ones supporting Hayes, Toshindo, and the quest centers. Just ask around.



> Oh yeah, it took me about 30 seconds to connect via telephone and 3 minutes to get my questions answered - not 3 to 5 days. About being lazy? I couldn't tell by phone. Could be though.


I was refering to emailing. since that is what was originally posted.....

I just want SOMEONE to find answers, prove or disprove, then post the info here. Good luck,
KE


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## shiro (Aug 2, 2004)

I am glad someone call to confim what I had said.
Good for You.
Iwas not refering to You per say Shogun.


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## Shogun (Aug 2, 2004)

Ok. it just seemed like it.


cheers,
Kyle


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## Don Roley (Aug 2, 2004)

Shiro's comments were directed towards people like Kreth, Ed Lomax and anyone else who has talked to Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan and reported what they said rather than going merely on what Hayes and his followers say.

But of course, I think that anyone who cares about the matter should talk in private to Hatsumi or one of the Japanese who trains with him on a weekly basis. I notice that some people seem reluctant to do so. So instead we risk a scremaing match on the internet.


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## Shogun (Aug 2, 2004)

That is where I stand. I simply want to know the truth. I wouldnt know how to go about talking to Hatsumi or a Shihan. but I would like it if someone would solve this riddle.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 2, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Shiro's comments were directed towards people like Kreth, Ed Lomax and anyone else who has talked to Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan and reported what they said rather than going merely on what Hayes and his followers say.
> 
> But of course, I think that anyone who cares about the matter should talk in private to Hatsumi or one of the Japanese who trains with him on a weekly basis. I notice that some people seem reluctant to do so. So instead we risk a scremaing match on the internet.



Eh, thats ok, one of the SK Hayes guys gave me a negative hit to my for having a "bujinkan" attaitude... 

Better a 'Kan attitude than that of a deceptive liar I say.


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## shiro (Aug 2, 2004)

Please do not put words in my mouth. I have been waiting 1 and a half days for a return email from the people who I am told who was there nothing Yet.
I would like to say that Mr. Hayes has treated me honest and fair. Mr. Hatsumi seems like a great Person and I look forward to going to Japan in the future to train Hombu.
I have meet a lot of Instructors in the Bujinkan at the TaiKai events and Most were very nice. Mr. Hoban Mr. Malstrom, And even Mr. Von Donk was all very nice.
I am not attacking anyone on a personal level. I really don't have a problem with either side, It is nice to talk these things out 
(a few of Us) Talk to you latter


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## shiro (Aug 2, 2004)

Does any one now of a web page by Mr. Toshiro Nagato or a way to contact Him email,phone Etc.. You can personal Message.
Thanks


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## kenanderson (Aug 3, 2004)

Mr. Shiro,

Did you get in touch with any of them? What did they say? 

- Ken Anderson


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## Enson (Aug 3, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Better a 'Kan attitude than that of a deceptive liar I say.


would that be "Ghengis Kan". sorry i had too. :ultracool just kidding technopunk!

what is all the commotion about anyway?... i think gmunoz solved it with one simple phone call. he asked if the ninjutsu that is taught by an-shu hayes was endorsed or certified/signed by hatsumi. it is.

now about being deceptive liars i wouldn't know. maybe someone else is lying here saying that hayes' name was stricken from the recored as every training ninjutsu. that everyone will deny hayes even existed... that hatsumi hates hayes only in private and secretly wants to "off" him and all his ninja followers. i seriously doubt thats the case. maybe hatsumi likes hayes not only in public but in private too. i think that would make hatsumi sound like a much better person to follow. not someone that says one thing and another behind their backs. does that sound reasonable to anyone else?


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## Cryozombie (Aug 3, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> now about being deceptive liars i wouldn't know.



"Deceptive Liars" refered to the Troll who used to hang out here namd "Shadow Warrior" and the Negative Feedback was for calling him on a stupid lie he made online...  I was referencing that old post when I said decptive liar.

I wasnt refering to the people here now as Deceptive Liars...


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## Enson (Aug 3, 2004)

okay. sounds good to me. i misundertood.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 3, 2004)

Enson, thanks for clearing that up befor people took it wrong and flames started roaring across the thread.


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## Black Bhudda (Aug 7, 2004)

Very well said Shiro.....may I also spread my ultimate wisdom.......see if you can decypher this riddle my friend.

"A monkey who scratches his own a**, can climb no tree."
So saith the Black Bhudda.


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## shiro (Aug 8, 2004)

I need to know one thing first Black Bhudda
Are You the monkey or the tree?


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## Jay Bell (Aug 8, 2004)

...or the a**?


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## Don Roley (Aug 9, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> what is all the commotion about anyway?... i think gmunoz solved it with one simple phone call. he asked if the ninjutsu that is taught by an-shu hayes was endorsed or certified/signed by hatsumi. it is.



Did someone contact Hatsumi? I don't seem to be able to find a reference to anyone doing that in this thread. Shiro seems to be unbable to contact Nagato. He should ask Ed Lomax about Nagato, but he has not done that AFAIK. Better yet, come to Japan and ask Hatusmi/Nagato/ any other Japanese shihan what Hayes status is and talk about something else on the internet.


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## shiro (Aug 9, 2004)

According to Some I would be turned away. I am going to Japan next fall.  I did contact one of the people in question that was there but I promised them I would not speak of what we talked about(Per them).
I will ask Mr. Hayes about this.
And if Mr. Hatsumi baned the person that put Him on the map when He is still teaching the classical system then He is not the person I thought He was.(I hope He Is)
What is AFAIK? 
And if You don't like the truth I am saying don't read it FYI this is the U.S.A. !


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## Kreth (Aug 9, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> And if Mr. Hatsumi baned the person that put Him on the map when He is still teaching the classical system then He is not the person I thought He was.


Um, don't refer to Hatsumi Sensei like this. He's not Jesus, and you look like a nut for doing it.

Jeff


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## shiro (Aug 9, 2004)

1st I think of Hatsumi as a great Teacher and to ban Your most known and first student from the U.S.A. When he still teaches the classical way I think is wrong.
2.As far as Jesus well I will not commit on it. 
3. I think You are out of Line for name calling.





			
				Kreth said:
			
		

> Um, don't refer to Hatsumi Sensei like this. He's not Jesus, and you look like a nut for doing it.
> 
> Jeff


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## Don Roley (Aug 9, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> According to Some I would be turned away.



There is a difference between "not welcome" and "turned away." I already posted a quote about how the Japanese (who are not big on public screaming matches and the like) will not confront a person, but will not correct or make suggestions to them.

Take soem time to read the book "Illuminated Spirit" if you want a good, non-Bujinkan, look into the way Japanese sometimes interact in matters like this.


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## Enson (Aug 9, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Did someone contact Hatsumi? I don't seem to be able to find a reference to anyone doing that in this thread. .


if hatsumi lives in japan and... well so do you... you contact him and let us all know. i would call but i have blocked long distance! hee hee!
peace


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## Cryozombie (Aug 9, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> if hatsumi lives in japan and... well so do you... you contact him and let us all know. i would call but i have blocked long distance! hee hee!
> peace



Don already has.  Those responses have been posted here.  And, the argument continues, because despite that the Quest students argue that its not true.

Who cares anymore.  Lets drop it and discuss training.


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## Enson (Aug 9, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Don already has. Those responses have been posted here. And, the argument continues, because despite that the Quest students argue that its not true.
> 
> Who cares anymore. Lets drop it and discuss training.


again i stand corrected. i must have missed that post. sorry about that don.:uhyeah:


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## shiro (Aug 9, 2004)

Has any of You seen the Takamatsu DvD?
On it Mr. Hasumi states that it is time to pass the Soke title on to someone else.
1. Who do You think? Not to argue just Opinion.
2. What do You think will happen to the Bujinkan after?


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## gmunoz (Aug 9, 2004)

I don't really know.  What I do know is that there will be some pretty jeolous and angry "cats" out there!  Pandamonium probably at first. It'll be interesing!


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## Enson (Aug 9, 2004)

maybe they'll make hayes soke!:jediduel: hee hee!!!


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## Cryozombie (Aug 9, 2004)

This topic has been discussed... and it is somthing that the members of the Bujinkan choose not to discuss.  It will be whomever Soke Hatsumi chooses, at the time he chooses.  Even he has refused to answer this question directly.

And yes, I have seen the Takamatsu DVD, its good stuff... makes ya kinda weepy.


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## Enson (Aug 9, 2004)

i know they choose not to discuss it. i think i read that before. it was a thread started by hanzo04 if i'm not mistaken.


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## shiro (Aug 9, 2004)

I am sure a non japanese will not be Soke.
I fore see something Along what happen to Ed Parkers org. after He died.


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## gmunoz (Aug 9, 2004)

Boy, what a response from TP!  Let's not discuss it!  Maybe it'll never happen!


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## Seig (Aug 10, 2004)

ADMIN NOTE

Keep the Discussion polite and respectful.
Seig
MT Operational Admin


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## Cryozombie (Aug 10, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Boy, what a response from TP!  Let's not discuss it!  Maybe it'll never happen!



Whats your damage dude?   If Hayes indicated to you he didnt want you discussing it would you?  If so, what kind of student would you be?  

Oh wait... you dont study under hayes, your "Shidoshi" is a freakin VCR.

Piss off.


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## Deaf (Aug 10, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> Has any of You seen the Takamatsu DvD?
> On it Mr. Hasumi states that it is time to pass the Soke title on to someone else.
> 1. Who do You think? Not to argue just Opinion.
> 2. What do You think will happen to the Bujinkan after?




You should really start another thread for this discussion.


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## gmunoz (Aug 10, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Whats your damage dude? If Hayes indicated to you he didnt want you discussing it would you? If so, what kind of student would you be?
> 
> Oh wait... you dont study under hayes, your "Shidoshi" is a freakin VCR.
> 
> Piss off.


Oh wait... I forgot you study under Hatsumi and that you live in Japan...


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## Kreth (Aug 10, 2004)

1. This is off-topic, and should be taken to its own thread, or preferably, not discussed at all.
2. As I've said several times before, discussing who will be the next Soke, is akin to chatting about who's getting what once your dear old grandad kicks the bucket. In a word, rude.

Jeff


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## shiro (Aug 10, 2004)

Mr. Hasumi Is not going to Die so thats alittle dramatic isn't.
I was just asking what people think. A lot of Orgs fall apart after the Head Soke Chooses to pass it on to the next.
Maybe this is what Mr. Hatsumi meant when He says that Instructors will have to stand or fall by their own name not His and their Dojos will have their names not His?
Thanks


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## Kreth (Aug 10, 2004)

Will you stop with the He and His crap?! It makes you look like some kind of cultist.

Jeff


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## KenpoTess (Aug 10, 2004)

* MOD NOTE

ENOUGH~!!
Thread Locked Pending Admin Review............

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-
*


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