# kubotan dual



## Porong (Jul 1, 2019)

I am legally considered a martial arts expert ( so this means if I brutalize any one it could show up as a deadly weapons charge) I am of the opinion that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 or is the number 8 but any way can you think of any tactical advantage if I have a dna cather kubotan on a key chain its own key chain and on the other end I put a pointed kubotan? thoughts please thank you.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2019)

Porong said:


> I am legally considered a martial arts expert ( so this means if I brutalize any one it could show up as a deadly weapons charge)



As was explained to you about a month ago, this is false.



> I am of the opinion that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 or is the number 8



It's six, but that's not too important.



> but any way can you think of any tactical advantage if I have a dna cather kubotan on a key chain its own key chain and on the other end I put a pointed kubotan? thoughts please thank you.



So you want to have a kubotan, linked to another kubotan? Why? I don't necessarily see the issue with it (provided you actually know how to use a kubotan),but you wouldn't necessarily need two that are connected to each other...that sounds more likely to just be tougher to fit in and grab out of your pocket. If you want two, put one thats easily accessible from each hand (right and left pockets for instance), so if one of your hands is pinned you can still grab one.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

Read that about five times to understand the question.

No. Kubotans are a trick weapon. If you suddenly find yourself in a conflict with a dude who you think can beat you up. A kubotan is not really going to make up the difference.

Where as Kubotans are perceived as really real weapons and so elevate you to a GBH rather than an assault.

Only my left hand is deemed a deadly weapon.

But it is so deadly they named a street after it.


----------



## Porong (Jul 1, 2019)

Well I am not sure if any one considered the laws are possibly different in different places my instructor did say it could potentially be assessed as a deadly weapons charge his wife is also a martial arts instructor and a lawyer

And when I asked a police officer he said that the court will have to make the decisions on what will be accessed is this not true? I mean if I want l legal advice is it not truly the best advice to ask an attorney?  I mean it would seem this is not the appropriate forum for legal advice?( Not All countries have the same laws) 

I basing my opinion on what my instructor and a police officer told me sorry if not everyone agrees but some times people dis agree on things can we  agree that this is not a legal advice forum and if I am worried perhaps I should seek legal counsel?  Pehaps we will have to agree to disagree and move on please? Thank you


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

Regardless of the legal nature what if someone thinks you kubotan is a knife and pulls out a weapon that time much more dangerous than a kubotan?


----------



## Porong (Jul 1, 2019)

I the issue is I think I issue is legally I think the choices are kubaton or pepper spray certain laws for transport for of knives lawyers have argued it may not be the best to carry a knife for defense charges are possibly more serious if the aggressor could win case against you I belive the problem with tear gas and or pepper sprays it an aersol I think raid teams use gas masks when sprays are used because of potential inhalation etc ps I think I read possibly sprays don't work on intoxicated or drug addicts I think the mini baton is more likley less dangerous than having a spary or a knife in my location is is prohibited to have electronic restraining device so I really think the mini baton is the best legal option in my area obviously it will do not good against a gun but I think I would rather carry a mini baton than nothing at all.


----------



## Porong (Jul 1, 2019)

If you get into trouble any thing will be better than nothing is it true?
Also just because you have the thing does not mean you have to use it. Also I am watching a video on mini baton right now if something happens it could possibly ade escape even if  firearms permits are not used here I would tend to think firearms are much more dangerous if you don't know how to use them than regular hand weapons and as previously stated citizens here are prohibited from conceal carry as general rule the police do not issue permits concealed weapons permits to average citzens it seem the logical legal option is a mini baton I already explain why I don't like Sprays I am certainly not traveling to places wearing a gas masks so I can safely use spray without fear I think the kubaton even though legal to carry is it not a variation of the deadly yawara stick and therefore could be very dangerous if properly used is that not true? I mean I would think if you have one I think could be very effective if properly used and would be better than nothing don't you agree as stated before three are weapons restrictions I think is the only logical legal option here


----------



## Porong (Jul 1, 2019)

Sprays could be inhaled

Also just because you have the thing does not mean you have to use it. Also I am watching a video on mini baton right now if something happens it could possibly ade escape even if firearms permits are not used here I would tend to think firearms are much more dangerous if you don't know how to use them than regular hand weapons and as previously stated citizens here are prohibited from conceal carry as general rule the police do not issue permits concealed weapons permits to average citzens it seem the logical legal option is a mini baton I already explain why I don't like Sprays I am certainly not traveling to places wearing a gas masks so I can safely use spray without fear I think the kubaton even though legal to carry is it not a variation of the deadly yawara stick and therefore could be very dangerous if properly used is that not true? I mean I would think if you have one I think could be very effective if properly used and would be better than nothing don't you agree as stated before three are weapons restrictions I think is the only logical legal option here


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

Porong said:


> If you get into trouble any thing will be better than nothing is it true?
> Also just because you have the thing does not mean you have to use it. Also I am watching a video on mini baton right now if something happens it could possibly ade escape even if  firearms permits are not used here I would tend to think firearms are much more dangerous if you don't know how to use them than regular hand weapons and as previously stated citizens here are prohibited from conceal carry as general rule the police do not issue permits concealed weapons permits to average citzens it seem the logical legal option is a mini baton I already explain why I don't like Sprays I am certainly not traveling to places wearing a gas masks so I can safely use spray without fear I think the kubaton even though legal to carry is it not a variation of the deadly yawara stick and therefore could be very dangerous if properly used is that not true? I mean I would think if you have one I think could be very effective if properly used and would be better than nothing don't you agree as stated before three are weapons restrictions I think is the only logical legal option here



Ok. So if you pull out your kubotan and the other guy pulls out some pepper spray.

Do you think you will win that fight?


----------



## Porong (Jul 1, 2019)

There are few legal options o here rather take risk with a kubotan than encounter a crazy person and be unarmed

Also I am not going to travel places wearing a gas masks so I don't have to fear the use of aErosols sprays


----------



## Porong (Jul 1, 2019)

Pepper  spary is not incredibly dangerous just because you have the thing does not mean you have to use it


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

Porong said:


> There are few legal options o here rather take risk with a kubotan than encounter a crazy person and be unarmed
> 
> Also I am not going to travel places wearing a gas masks so I don't have to fear the use of aErosols sprays



That's fine. Say crazy person has pepper spray. Are you going to try to attack him with your kubotan?

This is the biggest issue kubotans have is every other weapon is better.

A can of vegetables will hurt a guy more than a kubotan.


----------



## Porong (Jul 1, 2019)

I DON'T know about where you are but most deadly or dangerous weapons are illegal hear it think I will take my chances with the kubotan rather than be caught unarmed


----------



## pdg (Jul 2, 2019)

Porong said:


> I DON'T know about where you are but most deadly or dangerous weapons are illegal hear it think I will take my chances with the kubotan rather than be caught unarmed



Where are you?

The law is a funny thing, and quite honestly a police officer is almost never a good source of legal advice.

A lawyer/attorney (whatever is what in your location) is only one step up from that as well, unless it's their area of expertise - even then you'll likely get 3 different answers from 2 different 'experts', especially in grey areas...

I'm certainly no expert, but I know the basics for where I live - and the most basic of that is that anything at all will be legally treated as a weapon if used as such.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 2, 2019)

Oh Lord.


----------



## frank raud (Jul 2, 2019)

Porong said:


> can you think of any tactical advantage if I have a dna cather kubotan on a key chain its own key chain and on the other end I put a pointed kubotan


  Well, you're not asking about the advantage of putting a side handle on a kubaton, so there's that as a positive note. If I understand correctly, you want to attach two different styles of kubatons together, into what would seem to be a miniature set of nunchaku. Advantages? Absolutely none that I can think of. Bulky, yet compact, hardly intuitive as to which side to use (I assume with two different styles of kubaton, there is a reason to have them being different), too small to be used effectively as a flail.

I'm asking based on your apparent lack of understanding of how various weapons work (asking about side handles on Bos, dual kubatons), what exactly are you a martial arts expert in?


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 2, 2019)

pdg said:


> Where are you?
> 
> The law is a funny thing, and quite honestly a police officer is almost never a good source of legal advice.
> 
> ...



There are alot of attorneys out there that do not practice criminal law or aren'tknowledgeable in self defense but love to give advice on it.....and it's usually worthless.

I once argued with an attorney for 30-40 minutes on a self defense case before he admitted he had never read Graham v. Conor.  Everything he said went directly against that ruling.

So if you are going to get advice....make sure the person has a background in it and is knowledgeable.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 2, 2019)

Porong said:


> I am legally considered a martial arts expert ( so this means if I brutalize any one it could show up as a deadly weapons charge) I am of the opinion that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 or is the number 8 but any way can you think of any tactical advantage if I have a dna cather kubotan on a key chain its own key chain and on the other end I put a pointed kubotan? thoughts please thank you.



Quit trollin bro.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 2, 2019)

A kubotan is basically a toothbrush with the bristles removed. Why not just beat dudes up with an actual toothbrush? Im sure the charges would be less and you'll look like a stud when the story gets told.


----------



## Buka (Jul 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> A kubotan is basically a toothbrush with the bristles removed. Why not just beat dudes up with an actual toothbrush? Im sure the charges would be less and you'll look like a stud when the story gets told.



God, I so love this post.


----------



## Buka (Jul 2, 2019)

Porong said:


> I am legally considered a martial arts expert.



Thank God someone is.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 2, 2019)

Judged by 12 to be carried by 6 when the sentence is death.    Worth noting capital punishment is still around in some countries.  

Serious response: the blunted Kubatons, i think look a little less weaponry so you MIGHT be able to get away with them as a key fob or something.  If you want a stabbing improv weapon i would suggest a pen or something though.      i would place them as the better than nothing criteria if you need a weapon.  

You might just be better off carrying a flashlight, its like a kubaton in hitting, but you can blind people with it and also use it to see at night and its not a weapon so many people wont take it off you/overlook it.     Pending design anyway.


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 2, 2019)

Attach keys to lanyard and voila....keychain


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 2, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> There are alot of attorneys out there that do not practice criminal law or aren'tknowledgeable in self defense but love to give advice on it.....and it's usually worthless.
> 
> I once argued with an attorney for 30-40 minutes on a self defense case before he admitted he had never read Graham v. Conor.  Everything he said went directly against that ruling.
> 
> So if you are going to get advice....make sure the person has a background in it and is knowledgeable.


I always get a laugh when someone has a family friend who happens to be an attorney "do them a favor."  They don't know the rules, they don't know the regular deals...  Usually, the prosecutors take pity on them... before they send their client up th river.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 2, 2019)

Porong said:


> Well I am not sure if any one considered the laws are possibly different in different places my instructor did say it could potentially be assessed as a deadly weapons charge his wife is also a martial arts instructor and a lawyer
> 
> And when I asked a police officer he said that the court will have to make the decisions on what will be accessed is this not true? I mean if I want l legal advice is it not truly the best advice to ask an attorney?  I mean it would seem this is not the appropriate forum for legal advice?( Not All countries have the same laws)
> 
> I basing my opinion on what my instructor and a police officer told me sorry if not everyone agrees but some times people dis agree on things can we  agree that this is not a legal advice forum and if I am worried perhaps I should seek legal counsel?  Pehaps we will have to agree to disagree and move on please? Thank you


It's a complicated question.  But I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that requires martial artists to register, or automatically assumes their hands are "deadly weapons."

Attorneys are great sources for legal advice.  But it has to be in the scope of their practice, because most have -- at best! -- a single class on criminal law in law school.  There's a difference between a finish carpenter and a rough carpenter and a cabinetmaker... even though they all use similar tools to shape wood.  Same thing with attorneys; a patent lawyer is not a criminal lawyer...


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 2, 2019)

Porong said:


> Well I am not sure if any one considered the laws are possibly different in different places my instructor did say it could potentially be assessed as a deadly weapons charge his wife is also a martial arts instructor and a lawyer
> 
> And when I asked a police officer he said that the court will have to make the decisions on what will be accessed is this not true? I mean if I want l legal advice is it not truly the best advice to ask an attorney?  I mean it would seem this is not the appropriate forum for legal advice?( Not All countries have the same laws)
> 
> I basing my opinion on what my instructor and a police officer told me sorry if not everyone agrees but some times people dis agree on things can we  agree that this is not a legal advice forum and if I am worried perhaps I should seek legal counsel?  Pehaps we will have to agree to disagree and move on please? Thank you


You are 100% correct this is not the appropriate forum to get legal advise from. Hmm, going to a MA forum for legal advise. Do you go to a dance forum for you medical advise?


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 2, 2019)

Porong said:


> Pepper  spary is not incredibly dangerous just because you have the thing does not mean you have to use it


Maybe not dangerous as far as long lasting effects are concerned.
Have you been sprayed with pepper spray yet? If not, you need to try it before making such a ludicrous statement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

Porong said:


> Well I am not sure if any one considered the laws are possibly different in different places my instructor did say it could potentially be assessed as a deadly weapons charge his wife is also a martial arts instructor and a lawyer
> 
> And when I asked a police officer he said that the court will have to make the decisions on what will be accessed is this not true? I mean if I want l legal advice is it not truly the best advice to ask an attorney?  I mean it would seem this is not the appropriate forum for legal advice?( Not All countries have the same laws)
> 
> I basing my opinion on what my instructor and a police officer told me sorry if not everyone agrees but some times people dis agree on things can we  agree that this is not a legal advice forum and if I am worried perhaps I should seek legal counsel?  Pehaps we will have to agree to disagree and move on please? Thank you


Yeah, you should talk to an attorney. One who is not related to a martial artist, and who practices criminal law. What the officer told you sounds like he was humoring your question. I've talked to a number of LEO and attorneys from different places, and have yet to find one (though one might well exist) where martial arts training classified empty-hand as a weapon, legally. It could be considered a factor in what charge is brought, but absent a weapon, there's no weapons charge in any location I'm aware of.

Back to the question of the kubotan. I have some training with one, and could make some use of it. I'm not sure it's worth it, unless you can carry it in a quick-draw sheath. The value is transitory (some things are better empty-handed), but it can reinforce some locks and pins, and can serve to harden a punch (though I'm not convinced this is good for the puncher). Unless you're well trained in its use, the kubotan is just a stick that gets in the way. Adding another to the end just means there's even more stuff in the way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

Porong said:


> If you get into trouble any thing will be better than nothing is it true?


Only if you know how to use it well. For most folks who carry a kubotan, it will actually be worse than not having it - it's a fairly technical little weapon that doesn't add much advantage to untrained users.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

Porong said:


> I DON'T know about where you are but most deadly or dangerous weapons are illegal hear it think I will take my chances with the kubotan rather than be caught unarmed


In almost every situation, there's something lying about that's a better weapon than a kubotan.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> Attach keys to lanyard and voila....keychain



Some handy mace attached to your key chain seems ideal.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Some handy mace attached to your key chain seems ideal.


Perhaps a mace and a can of mace, attached by a lanyard?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2019)

Ok. This is a cute little tactical torch that I picked up the other day. It has little cookie cutters on the front so if I hammer fist someone in the face with it I am sure it will hurt. (Issues there if I don't want someone running to the cops with no face. )



 

This is as much of a dark alley as I could be bothered with.


 

And this is the real self defense value of my little torch. I can see a bad guy from a hundred meters and run away.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps a mace and a can of mace, attached by a lanyard?



Shotgun tazer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Shotgun tazer.


For the win.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Ok. This is a cute little tactical torch that I picked up the other day. It has little cookie cutters on the front so if I hammer fist someone in the face with it I am sure it will hurt. (Issues there if I don't want someone running to the cops with no face. )
> 
> View attachment 22311
> 
> ...


The "tactical" flashlights (how did "flashlight" become a word for something that is, really, an electric replacement for a torch???) has changed the market so much, it's hard to find a usable small light that doesn't have the "cookie cutter" at the tip. Personally, I prefer not to have them, so the danged thing is less likely to be viewed as an intentional weapon. As you said, the light is the really important function.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The "tactical" flashlights (how did "flashlight" become a word for something that is, really, an electric replacement for a torch???) has changed the market so much, it's hard to find a usable small light that doesn't have the "cookie cutter" at the tip. Personally, I prefer not to have them, so the danged thing is less likely to be viewed as an intentional weapon. As you said, the light is the really important function.



I would rubberized it so it doesn't leave marks.


----------



## pdg (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The "tactical" flashlights (how did "flashlight" become a word for something that is, really, an electric replacement for a torch???) has changed the market so much, it's hard to find a usable small light that doesn't have the "cookie cutter" at the tip. Personally, I prefer not to have them, so the danged thing is less likely to be viewed as an intentional weapon. As you said, the light is the really important function.



The 'tactical' torches are a bit of a grey legal area here, so there are plenty on the market with a plain rounded lip over the lens (really just enough to protect the glass if dropped).

Try searching for something like "18650 rechargeable" or simply "LED" torch - and use the word torch instead of flashlight - and you're more likely to get hits for units designed for the UK market


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

pdg said:


> The 'tactical' torches are a bit of a grey legal area here, so there are plenty on the market with a plain rounded lip over the lens (really just enough to protect the glass if dropped).
> 
> Try searching for something like "18650 rechargeable" or simply "LED" torch - and use the word torch instead of flashlight - and you're more likely to get hits for units designed for the UK market


Good idea - I'll give that a shot!


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 3, 2019)

The only real issue presented in torch territory i have been made aware of, if it has those bevels on the end.     Someone might look at them and go "nope" and take it off you if you are going somewhere they do weapons checks or something.    Hell sticking a mag light in your car to hit people with is a good idea, you have a legal defence for carrying it and it makes a handy club.  

Your probably only going to get into dangerous weapon territory and not deadly though as its not designed to maim.    (pending how it works in your area of course)


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 3, 2019)

There's no legal gray area for heck sake.

There's no list of things which are and are not weapons in the eyes of the law. A baseball bat isn't a weapon until it's used as one, then it is.

And bottom line, for like the billionth time, no one giving learned advice here is going to pay your fines or serve your prison time because they gave you stupid advice about the legality of carrying assault hamsters or whatever.

Figure it out.


----------



## pdg (Jul 3, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There's no legal gray area for heck sake.
> 
> There's no list of things which are and are not weapons in the eyes of the law. A baseball bat isn't a weapon until it's used as one, then it is.



Actually, there is a list of things considered only useful as weapons here that 'nobody' is allowed to carry around under any circumstance, and a list of things that have a secondary use as weapons which are allowed to be carried 'with good reason' (certain tools etc.)

Pretty much anything can be used as a weapon - and will be dealt with as such in a legal setting (e.g. baseball bat, credit card, tin of beans).

The grey area with tactical torches is that it is currently (at my last check) undecided whether they are on the list of weapons or not. If they make the list, they're effectively banned for carry, if they don't then they'll be in same category as a tin of beans...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

pdg said:


> Actually, there is a list of things considered only useful as weapons here that 'nobody' is allowed to carry around under any circumstance, and a list of things that have a secondary use as weapons which are allowed to be carried 'with good reason' (certain tools etc.)
> 
> Pretty much anything can be used as a weapon - and will be dealt with as such in a legal setting (e.g. baseball bat, credit card, tin of beans).
> 
> The grey area with tactical torches is that it is currently (at my last check) undecided whether they are on the list of weapons or not. If they make the list, they're effectively banned for carry, if they don't then they'll be in same category as a tin of beans...


In at least some places in the US, there's some of the same, as far as the "only useful as weapons" category. I don't think there's a defined list anywhere of the "with good reason" type of tools, though.


----------



## pdg (Jul 3, 2019)

Oh, and then there are also different lists for classes of weapons...

There are those where possession at all is a criminal offence.

There are those that are allowed to be possessed under licence, without which any possession is a criminal offence.

There are those that you can legally own, but carrying off your own property is a criminal offence (some of these can be carried 'with good reason', such as taking a bo to an ma class etc.)

Anything else would likely come under 'weapon of opportunity' if used as such.


So, if tactical torches are deemed to be primarily a (disguised) weapon, then public possession would be a criminal offence.


----------



## pdg (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> In at least some places in the US, there's some of the same, as far as the "only useful as weapons" category. I don't think there's a defined list anywhere of the "with good reason" type of tools, though.



I'll concede that point - it's really open to situational discretion.

Although, it could be said that 'the list' of such items consists of "anything pointy, bludgeony or in any way scary".

Most days I have what is effectively a large karambit in my car - but because of my job it's a weeding tool. If I leave it in my car, by itself, while out for a jolly I'm really asking for a little trip to the station and an offer of legal representation...


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 3, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There's no legal gray area for heck sake.
> 
> There's no list of things which are and are not weapons in the eyes of the law. A baseball bat isn't a weapon until it's used as one, then it is.
> 
> ...


Based on a state appellate ruling, in Virginia... things are weapons.  The code section describing concealed weapons ends with the phrase "weapon of like kind" or something like that.  I'm being lazy and not looking it up for the exact words -- but the state Court of Appeals found that a Balisong style butterfly folding knife is NOT a weapon, after examining it in the light of several defitions of weapon.  It didn't matter what the person intended to do... just that he had the potential.


----------



## pdg (Jul 3, 2019)

jks9199 said:


> but the state Court of Appeals found that a Balisong style butterfly folding knife is NOT a weapon, after examining it in the light of several defitions of weapon. It didn't matter what the person intended to do... just that he had the potential.



That's interesting - a balisong is classified as an offensive weapon in the UK and has been illegal to carry since (iirc) the late eighties / early nineties.

In/around '95 a guy was arrested carrying one a few miles from my house and attempted to show good reason by saying he might need it to do something like cut his shoe laces if they became knotted :/

Even if he found a better good reason, the prosecution would still have gone ahead due to it's classification.

Unfortunately, I didn't post it on YouTube so I'm probably lying


----------



## pdg (Jul 3, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And bottom line, for like the billionth time, no one giving learned advice here is going to pay your fines or serve your prison time because they gave you stupid advice about the legality of carrying assault hamsters or whatever.



Just to clarify this point in particular.

My 'learned advice' is that if you're in the UK, either be damn sure what you'd like to carry isn't on any of the lists (or isn't 'of like kind' to anything on them), or don't carry anything.

Legally, I'd say - if in doubt, don't take it out...


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 3, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Ok. This is a cute little tactical torch that I picked up the other day. It has little cookie cutters on the front so if I hammer fist someone in the face with it I am sure it will hurt. (Issues there if I don't want someone running to the cops with no face. )
> 
> View attachment 22311
> 
> ...


L.E.D.'s are amazing. How durable to you think it will be? My little 2-cell AAA mag light is tough but I have had to replace the on/off button twice from regular use and banging/bouncing around in the back of my truck. Never used it as a force multiplier and always wondered how a small would hold up.
I used to carry a 6-cell C Mag light for a night stick. Replaced the bulb no telling how many times. Always carried spared in my vehicle.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> L.E.D.'s are amazing. How durable to you think it will be? My little 2-cell AAA mag light is tough but I have had to replace the on/off button twice from regular use and banging/bouncing around in the back of my truck. Never used it as a force multiplier and always wondered how a small would hold up.
> I used to carry a 6-cell C Mag light for a night stick. Replaced the bulb no telling how many times. Always carried spared in my vehicle.



Not sure. Energizer generally do a decent product. For durability I have found the three batteries in a little cage hold up better than end to end. 

(The one in that photo is two end to end 123s but we will see how it goes.)

As far as a baton torch I have found led lenzer is by far the best although it is a 3D.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 3, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Not sure. Energizer generally do a decent product. For durability I have found the three batteries in a little cage hold up better than end to end.
> 
> (The one in that photo is two end to end 123s but we will see how it goes.)
> 
> As far as a baton torch I have found led lenzer is by far the best although it is a 3D.


Switched the Mag to an LED bulb and it made a huge difference.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 3, 2019)

pdg said:


> Just to clarify this point in particular.
> 
> My 'learned advice' is that if you're in the UK, either be damn sure what you'd like to carry isn't on any of the lists (or isn't 'of like kind' to anything on them), or don't carry anything.
> 
> Legally, I'd say - if in doubt, don't take it out...



UK is different.  It's like, the moon or something.  I'm talking about the good old USA.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 3, 2019)

jks9199 said:


> Based on a state appellate ruling, in Virginia... things are weapons.  The code section describing concealed weapons ends with the phrase "weapon of like kind" or something like that.  I'm being lazy and not looking it up for the exact words -- but the state Court of Appeals found that a Balisong style butterfly folding knife is NOT a weapon, after examining it in the light of several defitions of weapon.  It didn't matter what the person intended to do... just that he had the potential.



I sincerely doubt the court said that, but let's say it did.  My point is still pretty basic and easy to grasp.  If some knucklehead reads this, decides that balisongs are A-OK in VA because someone said so on the interwebs and gets his *** in a crack because of it, you're not going to prison for him, nor paying his fines or legal bills.  People have to do their own research or pay the 'stupid tax', which can be quite high at times.  And no, I'm not calling you stupid.  I'm saying anyone who decides to do something sketchy based on something someone else said was OK is going to have a tough road in life.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 3, 2019)

pdg said:


> Actually, there is a list of things considered only useful as weapons here that 'nobody' is allowed to carry around under any circumstance, and a list of things that have a secondary use as weapons which are allowed to be carried 'with good reason' (certain tools etc.)
> 
> Pretty much anything can be used as a weapon - and will be dealt with as such in a legal setting (e.g. baseball bat, credit card, tin of beans).
> 
> The grey area with tactical torches is that it is currently (at my last check) undecided whether they are on the list of weapons or not. If they make the list, they're effectively banned for carry, if they don't then they'll be in same category as a tin of beans...



That's pure BS.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> L.E.D.'s are amazing. How durable to you think it will be? My little 2-cell AAA mag light is tough but I have had to replace the on/off button twice from regular use and banging/bouncing around in the back of my truck. Never used it as a force multiplier and always wondered how a small would hold up.
> I used to carry a 6-cell C Mag light for a night stick. Replaced the bulb no telling how many times. Always carried spared in my vehicle.



It's going to vary _*enormously*_ from one light to another. 
If you want one that will handle abuse, consider one designed for diving, not one labeled tactical. They're not cheap, but if they can handle being bounced off the wall of a cave 500 feet down, I'm betting they can handle being bounced off a skull at a mere one atmosphere.
I carry several of THESE as backup lights when I'm diving. One with the video (very wide, no hot spot) head and two with the spot head. You're going to have to try hard to break one.


----------



## rondave72 (Jul 3, 2019)

I’d like to butt in to say that as fancy as flashlights can get, I’ve had a lot of luck with maglite’s AA versions over the years and they make a 275 lumen version now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Buka (Jul 3, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There's no legal gray area for heck sake.
> 
> There's no list of things which are and are not weapons in the eyes of the law. A baseball bat isn't a weapon until it's used as one, then it is.
> 
> ...



Assault hamsters....I gotta' get me some of them. And if I can get them to wear little green helmets...


----------



## rondave72 (Jul 3, 2019)

They can be vicious and if you don’t feed them they can turn on you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2019)

rondave72 said:


> I’d like to butt in to say that as fancy as flashlights can get, I’ve had a lot of luck with maglite’s AA versions over the years and they make a 275 lumen version now.



Maglites are inexpensive. They're also cheap.
The backup lights that I linked are only 1000 lumen.


----------



## rondave72 (Jul 3, 2019)

I’ve gotten decades out of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Maglites are inexpensive. They're also cheap.
> The backup lights that I linked are only 1000 lumen.


I don't know. My 6-cell C-cell Mag I wore as a side baton because I rode patrol on a bike quite a bit and it was a little shorter than a PR-24. It was used its fair share in daily duties, survived two slides on the bike (a recovered wipeout where the bike is damaged), cracked a few skulls and the only thing I have ever replaced were bulbs. It is ugly enough from all the scratches and missing paint we used to joke about its appearance alone being a deterrent. This one is 33 years old and still working perfectly. My smaller 2-cell AAA lights have had the switch button replaced a couple times but to be fair they are on/off much more and treated roughly. They are at least 20 years old so no complaints.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 3, 2019)

rondave72 said:


> I’d like to butt in to say that as fancy as flashlights can get, I’ve had a lot of luck with maglite’s AA versions over the years and they make a 275 lumen version now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I replace my C cell Mag with a LED bulb (direct fit) that makes a huge difference.


----------



## Danny T (Jul 3, 2019)

I carry one similar to this


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2019)

Buka said:


> Assault hamsters....I gotta' get me some of them. And if I can get them to wear little green helmets...


Yeah, I'm thinking there's a market for the hamsters, and a great after-market business for assault gear.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I don't know. My 6-cell C-cell Mag I wore as a side baton because I rode patrol on a bike quite a bit and it was a little shorter than a PR-24. It was used its fair share in daily duties, survived two slides on the bike (a recovered wipeout where the bike is damaged), cracked a few skulls and the only thing I have ever replaced were bulbs. It is ugly enough from all the scratches and missing paint we used to joke about its appearance alone being a deterrent. This one is 33 years old and still working perfectly. My smaller 2-cell AAA lights have had the switch button replaced a couple times but to be fair they are on/off much more and treated roughly. They are at least 20 years old so no complaints.


Yeah, the only failures I've had with the bigger Mag-lites  has been when I left batteries in them too long and they corroded. I've had some issues with the little AA versions, though - they' seem to be a bit less sturdy.


----------



## John Codero (May 14, 2020)

My Kungfu teacher sifu Patrick van Steen is also a kubotan instructor. He mentioned that it is considdered as a keychain. And that the best one to are the one without a point at one end. There are judges who considder a point shaped one worse then on wothout point shape.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 14, 2020)

John Codero said:


> My Kungfu teacher sifu Patrick van Steen is also a kubotan instructor. He mentioned that it is considdered as a keychain. And that the best one to are the one without a point at one end. There are judges who considder a point shaped one worse then on wothout point shape.


This depends very much on what the local laws are where you live, so I won't comment too much on that. I've no clue what the laws are in the netherlands. But for a similar reasoning (can be considered something else, and blunt rather than a pointed object like a knife), I recommend people get a maglite like mentioned earlier in the thread.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 14, 2020)

John Codero said:


> My Kungfu teacher sifu Patrick van Steen is also a kubotan instructor. He mentioned that it is considdered as a keychain. And that the best one to are the one without a point at one end. There are judges who considder a point shaped one worse then on wothout point shape.


Given that we stop them from coming into the courthouse, and the TSA is supposed to stop them from going on planes, I don't think it's safe to make a blanket statement that they are considered key chains.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 14, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Given that we stop them from coming into the courthouse, and the TSA is supposed to stop them from going on planes, I don't think it's safe to make a blanket statement that they are considered key chains.


That's true in the US. A really quick google search agreed with what he said for the netherlands-apparently they are okay as long as they do not have a sharpened tip, but you cannot use more force than deemed appropriate (not sure if that's reasonable man appropriateness or something else). TI found a few sites suggesting that, none of them legal or official in any manner, but different countries (and states) have different laws.


----------

