# Wing Chun/Tsun and Eskrima



## geezer (Sep 5, 2008)

I have been training Wing Tsun and Eskrima off and on for a long time. Wing Tsun longer. Lately I've been really getting into a branch of Eskrima called DTE that is very practical and combative, and adaptable. I find that my Wing Tsun concepts are constantly informing my Eskrima. The systems have some fundamental differences resulting from the ranges and nature of the weapons employed. Outwardly the differences seem great. The Eskrima stances are predominantly front-weighted, a lot of power generation is circular as well as linear and generally, you will not be sticking to your opponent. At least when using longer weapons and at longer ranges. Yet DTE and WT share so much at the core or _conceptual_ level, that these outward differences seem trifling compared to what the arts have in common.

For example, the core concepts of WT/WC such as _simplicity, efficiency_, _economy of motion, yielding and borrowing the force_ of an opponent's attack, and being able to generate _short-range power_, are all central to the Eskrima I train. Perhaps this is because both are true combat arts...except that there are other combat oriented arts that _don't_ apply these concepts. More likely, it is more a result of a similar perspective on combat. I mean, _a WC/WT perspective_ of trying to find the most intelligent and effective way to defend yourself, even against a stronger attacker. (After all, why would an attacker come after you _if he didn't think he had the advantage?)_

So, anyway, I've found that sticking to these core concepts is really helping me in both arts. Not by blending or bastardizing them, but by finding a a common thread. So, I'm finding more than a bit of bong sau/fak sau in my DTE roof-block and follow through strike. A lot of tan of fook sau in my lateral parries, and a lot of gaun-sau in my floor block and downward parries. And the Escrima is adding some eye opening insights into my Wing Tsun too. For one thing, it makes me a lot more open minded about learning new stuff...like what I read on this forum. Traditional WT can get a little dogmatic sometimes... OK, _more_ than a little (sorry). 

Anyway, do any of you guys study FMAs or other arts along with Wing Chun/Tsun? How do they complement each other for you?


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## arnisador (Sep 5, 2008)

I did Wing Chun for a while and JKD much longer and I find that WC and the FMAs make a great pair! The WC sharpened my life hand and gave me a new perspective on some of the stick passing techniques, and the stick makes the WC trapping easier to visualize and is an area of application where it's essential.

Of course the general priniples you cite also match well!


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## mook jong man (Sep 5, 2008)

I did doce pares a few years ago for a little while it was very circular and i didn't find a lot of similarities. But when i started in illustrisimo there are a lot of concepts that are similar , there is one where if your stab is blocked by an arm you use the blade to rip his arm down and clear the path just like a fook sau .

 With the machete or sticks the strikes are very direct going straight from the guard to the target . My teacher was a state fencing champion so i think he has added fencing footwork , but it works great i can cover these big distances with one lunge and it has made my stepping with Wing Chun a lot faster .

 The stance is a lot different though , standing extremely side on, leaning forward with your chin tucked into your shoulder with most of the weight on your front foot . The lead hand holds the knife / stick / machete close to the body and the other hand guards your neck. 

Another big difference is that in Wing Chun you meet any incoming force with your arms in the optimum angle but in illustrisimo the blocks are done with the arms a lot closer to the body which is something i have to continually make sure i am doing because they want to come out all the time . 

All i heard in knife sparring was my teacher shouting " Get your arms back in ", just before a padded training knife would come thudding in to the face grill of my hockey helmet lol .


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## LoneRider (Sep 6, 2008)

My line of Wing Chun, taught by Armando Sainz, out of Neptune Beach, FL has some Escrima/Kali basing in the stick fighting courses that I've seen. 

 One such version is what we call sam sing sao (pls. excuse any spelling errors), whereupon with a partner you strike your inner forearms against each other and follow through, continue upward and strike inner forearms again and then go down and strike outer forearms together. We do the same with sticks to practice parrying. It proves how Escrima is great with weapons and without and how it readily integrates with Wing Chun.


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## geezer (Sep 6, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> ... in illustrisimo there are a lot of concepts that are similar , there is one where if your stab is blocked by an arm you use the blade to rip his arm down and clear the path just like a fook sau...
> ... it has made my stepping with Wing Chun a lot faster .
> 
> ...The stance is a lot different though , standing extremely side on, leaning forward with your chin tucked into your shoulder with most of the weight on your front foot . The lead hand holds the knife / stick / machete close to the body and the other hand guards your neck.
> ...



The Direct Torres Eskrima I'm learning now has a number of similarities with Kalis Ilustrisimo. And like you, I'm finding both the similarities and differences more _enlightening than contradictory. _In other words, the differences in stance, for example, make sense when range and weapons are factored in. And, they make you realize that even when fighting empty-handed, you can vary your approach to suit the situation. In short you become more versatile. Similarly, the differences in how you hold your arms make perfect sense if you are dealing with a blade... unless, of course you don't want to have any arms!

Now there are plenty of arts that _do contradict_ each other and probably should not be practiced together. I've always felt that the harder styles of karate, such as Shotokan, were incompatible with the yielding approach of Wing Chun/Tsun. Or Kempo, which although sometimes soft, has many elaborate and complicated techniques as contrasted with the simplicity and efficiency of WC/WT. Do any of you also practice these or other arts which may be hard to reconcile with WC/WT? How do you benefit?


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 6, 2008)

That is so true.Tae Kwon Do in no way compliments Wing Tsun,there was a lot that had to be un-learned.Sometimes I still find myself wanting to tense up,you always have to remind yourself to relax,recognise it correct it.I was fortunate enough to be able to watch some of the Guro Renee Latosa's class,I hung out for at least an hour, different but definitely complimentary.
How is Mr.Geezer? got your PM thanks,I feel your pain man I feel your pain....
lets not kill ourselves trying to be the young Roosters,remember treachery and cunning can overcome youth and skill anyday! (ha!ha!) I thouroughly believe that.....skill *can* overcome!


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## arnisador (Sep 6, 2008)

Modern Arnis incorporates elements of Shotokan, but it has been smoothed out to fit the FMA!


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## geezer (Sep 6, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Modern Arnis incorporates elements of Shotokan, but it has been smoothed out to fit the FMA!



Even though it's hard to imagine finding much common ground between Wing Chun/Tsun and really hard syles like Shotokan, I _can_ see Shotokan and FMAs, and _also_ WC/WT  and FMAs. Sometimes I feel like the FMA's are the bridge between so many approaches. Cool, huh?


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 6, 2008)

Integration? Hey,what a revolution,maybe evolution? But consider, what you would call Wing Tsun?So complete...............maybe add this .....or that....what would you call it?


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## mook jong man (Sep 7, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> Integration? Hey,what a revolution,maybe evolution? But consider, what you would call Wing Tsun?So complete...............maybe add this .....or that....what would you call it?


Since you mentioned tae kwon do i had an instructor once that was an ex south pacific tae kwon do champion who left that art to study Wing Chun. 

In chi sau he could trap their hands and drop an axe kick on their shoulder. He acknowledged that he wouldn't try it in a real situation but it was a neat trick none the less.


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 7, 2008)

That....is cool


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## UrBaN (Sep 7, 2008)

Wing Chun, FMA, Silat. Same family arts.


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## graychuan (Sep 12, 2008)

I have the first 12 Striking set down pretty good now. We have done some basic blocking and disarming with Punyo techniques. I have the basic 5 movements of a 2-person drilling set. Three to the inside and Two to the outside blocking and countering. Any of these sound familiar? I remember learning a striking set very similar if not the same from Master Joe Pierro of Shaolin Kempo. Haven't done any Heaven Six yet.
  Just started 8-15-08 and its only 1 hour a week but I have 3 training partners that I can drill with constantly.


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## graychuan (Oct 11, 2008)

Here is an update of drills and such from my last 2 months of Kali/Escrima. My chi was up so naturally I threw in some spear work and chi sao.

Enjoy...or not!


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## profesormental (Oct 12, 2008)

Greetings.

Nice vid, Mr. Gray. Looked like 6 1/2 point spear... 

Flow and footwork on the 12 angle drill is up to par.

Here is an interesting consideration.

With a weapon, a person has high lethal capacity with very little training compared to the same with natural weapons.

A grandma with a knife is deadlier than many black belts. I've faced both. And my grandma used a machete.

Although, my grandma could deliver a vicious beatdown with a large kitchen spoon, wooden spoon, shoes pancakes or anything she could get her hands on...

Thus, in my case, I allocate more training time to empty hand, reactionary defensive methods and sports.

I keep my escrima and weapons training to about 2 at most 3 hours a week.

It is a sensible schedule to learn these skills. Although, I do have planned an intensive trimester of escrima training. It all has to do with learning methodologies and personal priorities.

The positioning of the arms in escrima is a matter of strategy and tactics, yet that is another topic.

Thanks again for the vid.

Juan M. Mercado

P.S. the training methodologies of Wing Chun and seoveral FMAs are similar, so integration is natural and feasable. I encourage it.


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## graychuan (Oct 12, 2008)

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> The positioning of the arms in escrima is a matter of strategy and tactics, yet that is another topic.
> 
> ...


 
Thank You.


Your always welcome.


P.S. Youre not kidding! I havent seen a WC forum or group that doesnt have a Kali/Escrima/Arnis/etc. section and _vice versa_. As much as I trust my own experience in the arts and classical weapons I never really could contribute one way or another because I hadnt studied Sticks yet. Now that I am a humble two months in I cant help but to notice the basic drills of footwork are almost if not identical to Sek Ma and Som Gat Ma footwork in WC.
Most intersting is how the art Kali/Escrima/Arnis/IllustrussiWho? are all actually complete Fillipino Martial Arts that take you through a whole science of Sticks to Swords to Knives to Emptyhands. A Very Complete System. 
Ive posted before about how Wing Chun as a teaching system teaches you from the inside-out although you fight outside-in. ( Ex. Slt-in close basic hand movements, CK- bridging sinking controlling, Bil Gee-closing bridging to gain initial contact or if contact is lost, like going to multiple opponents.). In Kali it seems to go from Sticks to Shortswords to Knives to Empty Hands.... Outside-in. Our Basic class structure is Warm-ups, drills, partner drills, basic technique with single stick, then with tantos(_we like the tantos because they are cheap, and sturdy. You can really file a cutting motion on an oponent without it folding up or bending like the plastic or rubber knives_.), then the same technique again with empty hands. Havent done anything with double sticks yet except the Heaven Six strikes.
Guru Ignacio is Philipino of Chinese ancestry. He originally learned from uncles in the islands. His grandfather actually moved to America not long after Guru and his training continued. Guru also has training in the Villabrille-Lacoste system. He has told of how in the old tribes one could tell the leaders from the soldiers because the highest rank chief had the smallest blade. I thought this was way kool.:ultracool
I do not have the form but from what I have seen the Baat Chaam Dao has a ready stance with one hand slightly back and the other forward, both on guard and one leg slightly back. This is the way I am taught in Ignacio as well.
There is basic Form, Strikes, Blocks , Structure( Alot of triangles!!!) and Footwork but Ignacio doesnt concentrate on specific applications as much. More natural flow and _forward momentum belive it or not_( Its very apparent at the knives and empty hand stage).
Now remember my resume, Kempo14, TCC10,WC2, KALI 2/12. So for what all that hot air is worth Im having a blast an getting a **** good workout.


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