# Isn't Bas Ruttens hook delivered in this study suboptimally executed?



## Axiom

From a boxing perspective that is. It just looks weird to me, and I'm not even a boxer!


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## JR 137

It does look a bit awkward, but I think it's because he was going for all out power, without thinking as much about speed and protecting himself.  Speed in regard to distance between point A and B, not radar gun hand speed, if you know what I mean.

Also, it doesn't matter if he's using good form or not for the purpose of the study.  If he hits the bag the same way every time, the only difference should be the amount of force of bare fist, MMA glove, and boxing glove.  If you or I hit the bag, the end result would be the same in regards to the different gloves and bare fist; we'd have different amounts of force, but the differences in the gloves and fists would be consistent.

I'm not sure how many times he actually hit the bag.  Hopefully he hit it a lot and they took an average for each type.  I say this because it doesn't look like he didn't hit solidly with the knuckles when he had the boxing gloves on.  It looks like he hit more with his fingers, as evidenced by the white area on the gloves.  Or maybe it's just me.

Either way, it doesn't look like a textbook hook.  But he'd easily kick my butt anyway


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## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> It does look a bit awkward, but I think it's because he was going for all out power, without thinking as much about speed and protecting himself.  Speed in regard to distance between point A and B, not radar gun hand speed, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Also, it doesn't matter if he's using good form or not for the purpose of the study.  If he hits the bag the same way every time, the only difference should be the amount of force of bare fist, MMA glove, and boxing glove.  If you or I hit the bag, the end result would be the same in regards to the different gloves and bare fist; we'd have different amounts of force, but the differences in the gloves and fists would be consistent.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how many times he actually hit the bag.  Hopefully he hit it a lot and they took an average for each type.  I say this because it doesn't look like he didn't hit solidly with the knuckles when he had the boxing gloves on.  It looks like he hit more with his fingers, as evidenced by the white area on the gloves.  Or maybe it's just me.
> 
> Either way, it doesn't look like a textbook hook.  But he'd easily kick my butt anyway



I know it's irrelevant for the study, but I actually think a textbook hook from the same Bas Rutten would generate more force. Someone wrote in the comment section that Bas was never formally trained in boxing so that's why his technique looks home cooked, because it is!


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## Anarax

Axiom said:


> From a boxing perspective that is. It just looks weird to me, and I'm not even a boxer!



When he struck it with the boxing glove it looked like his arm was open at a wider angle. It looked fine with the MMA glove and bare knuckle. Bas is known for using this "all of the above" strike as he refers to it as. He has used it in professional fights to strike the liver and spleen. Granted the strike is delivered higher up in the boxing/mma glove video, but the mechanics are very similar. Here's the video of him explaining and demonstrating it.


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## MA_Student

Who cares how it looks if it hits you you're going down


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## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> It does look a bit awkward, but I think it's because he was going for all out power, without thinking as much about speed and protecting himself.  Speed in regard to distance between point A and B, not radar gun hand speed, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Also, it doesn't matter if he's using good form or not for the purpose of the study.  If he hits the bag the same way every time, the only difference should be the amount of force of bare fist, MMA glove, and boxing glove.  If you or I hit the bag, the end result would be the same in regards to the different gloves and bare fist; we'd have different amounts of force, but the differences in the gloves and fists would be consistent.
> 
> I'm not sure how many times he actually hit the bag.  Hopefully he hit it a lot and they took an average for each type.  I say this because it doesn't look like he didn't hit solidly with the knuckles when he had the boxing gloves on.  It looks like he hit more with his fingers, as evidenced by the white area on the gloves.  Or maybe it's just me.
> 
> Either way, it doesn't look like a textbook hook.  But he'd easily kick my butt anyway



Apparently he also hit harder than anyone else ever had on that show.


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> I know it's irrelevant for the study, but I actually think a textbook hook from the same Bas Rutten would generate more force. Someone wrote in the comment section that Bas was never formally trained in boxing so that's why his technique looks home cooked, because it is!



Probably not.

A textbook hook is not really about battering its way through a guard with the most amount of force as you can muster.

It is about finding a position of vulnerability and hitting the right spot at the right time.

The reason for this is there are only so many punches you can throw without collapsing. So you have to make the shots count for more effect with less energy expenditure.

Eg. Connor Mc Gregor.


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## drop bear

So while these hooks all knocked people out.






This guy can brace his head and survive hard punching.


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## Axiom

drop bear said:


> Probably not.
> 
> A textbook hook is not really about battering its way through a guard with the most amount of force as you can muster.
> .



I'm simply extrapolating based on the fact that his body did not appear to be in unision, like a textbook hook, when delivering the technique. But anyway, I was mainly interested in if it was deemed correct.


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I know it's irrelevant for the study, but I actually think a textbook hook from the same Bas Rutten would generate more force. Someone wrote in the comment section that Bas was never formally trained in boxing so that's why his technique looks home cooked, because it is!



You think you can teach Bas Rutten then? He's a karateka not a boxer, he's an MMA fighter not a boxer, if he hits you, you go down, it's as simple as that. He doesn't have to be 'text book' correct, in MMA there's no 'correct'... it works or it doesn't. You KO your opponent or he KOs you, getting hung up on 'correct' technique is pointless especially when he's only hitting a bag not an opponent.


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You think you can teach Bas Rutten then? He's a karateka not a boxer, he's an MMA fighter not a boxer, if he hits you, you go down, it's as simple as that. He doesn't have to be 'text book' correct, in MMA there's no 'correct'... it works or it doesn't. You KO your opponent or he KOs you, getting hung up on 'correct' technique is pointless especially when he's only hitting a bag not an opponent.



That's irrelevant. The thread is not about whether his punch works or not. It's posted in a boxing thread for the technique geeks only.


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## Buka

Bas Rutten isn't a boxer, either.

Nobody throws punches the same way against an opponent as they do on a bag used to measure some form of force/power. Especially on camera, for a tv show. Some may disagree, probably not anyone who's actually done it. Your intent is not the same. Nor are your mechanics.






Sure is a fun guy to watch, though.


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## Danny T

Bas also states he it's not going to be a straight, it's not going to be an uppercut, it's not going to be a hook. It's going to be kinda all of the above.
When it comes to Bas and punching...his are text book Bas not boxing.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> That's irrelevant. The thread is not about whether his punch works or not. It's posted in a boxing thread for the technique geeks only.


Does it work? I don't know ask the 28 people he's beaten and the 13 he's knocked out


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Does it work? I don't know ask the 28 people he's beaten and the 13 he's knocked out



Sigh. I didn't ask if it works, I asked if it was correct from a textbook perspective. People are really struggling here..


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## Axiom

Danny T said:


> Bas also states he it's not going to be a straight, it's not going to be an uppercut, it's not going to be a hook. It's going to be kinda all of the above.
> When it comes to Bas and punching...his are text book Bas not boxing.



Okey, I didn't know that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Sigh. I didn't ask if it works, I asked if it was correct from a textbook perspective. People are really struggling here..


Purely because I'm a noodge, in the OP you actually asked if it was suboptimal, from a boxing perspective. If it knocks out boxers (and it does), that would probably mean it's pretty optimal for him. You clarified it later, but again, I'm a noodge sometimes.


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## Danny T

Axiom said:


> Okey, I didn't know that.


Did you not view the video you posted?


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## Axiom

Danny T said:


> Did you not view the video you posted?



Not the full clip


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> That's irrelevant. The thread is not about whether his punch works or not. It's posted in a boxing thread for the technique geeks only.



You asked if it was 'suboptimal' the answer is no, it works. He's not a boxer so why would you question his technique on a boxing thread? He's an MMA fighter so isn't going to do things the way a boxer would. If you'd put the OP in the general martial arts  or the MMA and competitive arts site then you would have had different answers, as it is you are asking about someone who is not a boxer and whether his technique is good boxing technique, why would it be?   




Axiom said:


> Sigh. I didn't ask if it works, I asked if it was correct from a textbook perspective. People are really struggling here..



No, people aren't struggling here at all. See the quote below. You are asking the wrong question. 



kempodisciple said:


> Purely because I'm a noodge, in the OP you actually asked if it was suboptimal, from a boxing perspective. If it knocks out boxers (and it does), that would probably mean it's pretty optimal for him. You clarified it later, but again, I'm a noodge sometimes.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Sigh. I didn't ask if it works, I asked if it was correct from a textbook perspective. People are really struggling here..


And everyone's answer is who cares the guy can obviously punch better than the average guy so who cares if it's not textbook boxing


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## JowGaWolf

Axiom said:


> From a boxing perspective that is. It just looks weird to me, and I'm not even a boxer!


I don't think it matters for the experiment.  My guess is the scientist said hit this as hard and as safely as you can.  They would require that the hooks be thrown with the same technique / form each time because they are researching the gloves and not the punch.  But to your point that you later stated.  I'm of the belief that technique produces power.



Axiom said:


> I'm simply extrapolating based on the fact that his body did not appear to be in unision


This is the basis for generating power in martial arts but it may not be as much as a guiding principle in other sports.  I've seen some boxers do it and I've seen some just try to strike hard without little care of what structures are being sited together.  For example, this is probably not an issue for most MMA fighters.  You'll find some that understand that having everything working together is important and other who just don't care as long as they can hit hard.



Axiom said:


> I asked if it was correct from a textbook perspective.


From a textbook perspective, it will depend on which textbook you are looking at.  For Boxing, you'll get mixed answers,  For MMA they will most likely say that it's correct,  From a Martial Arts perspective, they will say it's all wrong.   From the perspective of the guy getting hit, he would say that it was hard enough even if it wasn't correct.  The correctness of technique will vary with the fighting system and fighting styles.   It could be that this punching technique is best for his structure (muscle tightness, strengths, weaknesses, strategy.)  Look at things this way.  There are a lot of things that boxers do that would be considered incorrect in Martial Arts.  But what boxers do is correct technique for boxers.  What Bas Rutten does would be correct technique for MMA.


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## Danny T

JowGaWolf said:


> .  What Bas Rutten does would be correct technique for MMA.


Nah...What Bas Rutten does would be correct for Bas.

When throwing hooks he say he doesn't worry about slipping or covering just pull your hand back and out about elbow height and punch. He even says "Yes I know I'm wide open"..."Just throw the hook hard"


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You think you can teach Bas Rutten then? He's a karateka not a boxer,,.



I know karatekas love to claim him as one of their own, but Bas Rutten quit Kyoukshin long before black belt  (in favour of Muay Thai) and was later awarded an honorary  2nd degree black belt based on his performance in MMA.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I know karatekas loves to claim him as one of their own, but Bas Rutten quit Kyoukshin long before black belt  (in favour of Muay Thai) and was later awarded an honorary  2nd degree black belt based on his performance in MMA.


No ones claiming him as their own....seriously do you realise how stupid that sounds...that's just facts, he's also a 2nd dan in taekwondo and shintai karate as well as kyoukshin


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> No ones claiming him as their own....seriously do you realise how stupid that sounds...that's just facts, he's also a 2nd dan in taekwondo and shintai karate as well as kyoukshin



She claimed that he's a Karateka. And stop reading Wikipedia.. Once again, Bas Rutten, Like Anderson Silva, were awarded a post honorary black belt in Taekwondo as well. Neither one reached anywhere close to black belt in that art either.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> She claimed that he's a Karateka. And stop reading Wikipedia.. Once again, Bas Rutten, Like Anderson Silva, was awarded a post honorary black belt in Taekwondo as well. Neither one reached anywhere close to black belt.


And he does do karate doesn't matter what belt if he did karate that means he did karate so she's right he does have a karate base....what's so difficult to understand...he's more of a karate guy than a boxer he never trained pure boxing in his life.

Also you serious? Anderson silva was seriously considering competing in the Olympics for taekwondo. You're letting silly things like belts cloud your judgement are bas rutten and Anderson honorary black belts who know who cares...what matters is they could destroy 90% of any black belts it's the skill that matters not the belt same with this thread who cares about his technique it obviously works for him so who the heck cares If it's proper technique


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> And he does do karate doesn't matter what belt if he did karate that means he did karate so she's right he does have a karate base....what's so difficult to understand...he's more of a karate guy than a boxer he never trained pure boxing in his life.
> 
> Also you serious? Anderson silva was seriously considering competing in the Olympics for taekwondo.



Andersson Silva capitalized on his honorary black belt after getting suspended in the UFC, and wanted to compete in Olympic Taekwondo. That does not change the fact the he did TKD as a kid and quit long before black belt. As did Bas Rutten. So let's get the facts straight.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Andersson Silva capitalized on his awarded black belt after getting suspended in the UFC, and wanted to compete in Olympic Taekwondo. That does not change the fact the he did TKD as a kid and quit long before black belt. As did Bas Rutten. So let's get the facts straight.


And? Who cares they're still 2 of the best fighters of all time


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## Steve

Axiom said:


> I know it's irrelevant for the study, but I actually think a textbook hook from the same Bas Rutten would generate more force. Someone wrote in the comment section that Bas was never formally trained in boxing so that's why his technique looks home cooked, because it is!


Just to point out that the xomment section isn't what I would consider a reliable source of information.


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> And? Who cares they're still 2 of the best fighters of all time



No doubt. I just call BS when I see it. Nothing more than that. There are MMA-fighters with extensive traditional martial arts backgrounds. No need to try and mislead the readers with people who don't fit that bill.


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## MA_Student

Also I do find it quite funny how you're criticising someone's boxing technique...the same guy who posted a thread asking if he should start boxing or not


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> No doubt. I just call BS when I see it. Nothing more than that. There are MMA-fighters with extensive traditional martial arts background. No need to try and mislead the readers who don't fit that bill.



About Bas | Bas Rutten System

Karate, TKD and Muay Thai (not boxing).
''Sebastiaan “Bas” Rutten (Dutch pronunciation: [ˈbɑs ˈrʏtə(n)] is a Dutch retired mixed martial artist (MMA), Karate and Taekwondo blackbelt, and Muay Thai kickboxer."

Calm down. What you are doing is asking if a cricket batsman's technique is technically correct for baseball, just because a bat and a ball is involved in both games.



Axiom said:


> post honorary black belt



What's one of them then?


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> What's one of them then?



What?


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> What?



You wrote something, I quoted it asking what you were talking about.


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## Axiom

_ "Rutten submitted Japanese wrestler Kazuo "Yoshiki" Takahashi with an inverted heel hook during a grappling exchange which had been overconfidently initiated by Kazuo. The hold completely broke Takahashi's shin bone and gained Rutten an honorary 5th degree black belt in Kyokushin Budokai by Jon Bluming after he learned the fact"._


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> _ "Rutten submitted Japanese wrestler Kazuo "Yoshiki" Takahashi with an inverted heel hook during a grappling exchange which had been overconfidently initiated by Kazuo. The hold completely broke Takahashi's shin bone and gained Rutten an honorary 5th degree black belt in Kyokushin Budokai by Jon Bluming after he learned the fact"._



Says the man who told another poster to stop using Wikipedia. 

However he was already a 2nd Dan in that style. He wasn't given those, the 5th Dan was given but in many styles you often don't' grade after 3rd or 4th anyway. I don't know why you are so hung up on this, Bas Rutten is a black belt karateka, the 5th Dan wouldn't have been given if he didn't already have the other grades.


"Gus: How many different styles of fighting have you trained in? Do you have any ranks? Who do you consider your teacher?

Bas: Tae Kwon Do 2nd Degree, *Kyokushin Karate 2nd Degree*, Thai boxing yellow slip (just kidding), Kyokushin All round fighting 5th Degree (I received this after I defeated Takahashi. I didn’t do any test for this)."
Bas Rutten Interview



I don't know what you are trying to prove, and I still don't know what a 'post honorary belt' is.


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## JowGaWolf

Danny T said:


> Nah...What Bas Rutten does would be correct for Bas.
> 
> When throwing hooks he say he doesn't worry about slipping or covering just pull your hand back and out about elbow height and punch. He even says "Yes I know I'm wide open"..."Just throw the hook hard"


I said that as well.  There are no sets of techniques that define MMA so almost anything goes so long as it's effective and not illegal.


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> I'm simply extrapolating based on the fact that his body did not appear to be in unision, like a textbook hook, when delivering the technique. But anyway, I was mainly interested in if it was deemed correct.



Yes it is correct. Combat sports determine correctness by effect rather than athetics.

Which is the correct way to determine correctness.


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## drop bear

Danny T said:


> Bas also states he it's not going to be a straight, it's not going to be an uppercut, it's not going to be a hook. It's going to be kinda all of the above.
> When it comes to Bas and punching...his are text book Bas not boxing.



We call that one an undercut. Neat little punch.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> We call that one an undercut. Neat little punch.


None of my boxing-derived strikes are likely to be technically correct. From now on, I'm going to claim I learned them from Bas and DB, and that's why they are so "imperfect". Yep, that's my story from now on.


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## JR 137

Axiom said:


> _ "Rutten submitted Japanese wrestler Kazuo "Yoshiki" Takahashi with an inverted heel hook during a grappling exchange which had been overconfidently initiated by Kazuo. The hold completely broke Takahashi's shin bone and gained Rutten an honorary 5th degree black belt in Kyokushin Budokai by Jon Bluming after he learned the fact"._


Just as a point of order...

Jon Blumming's "Kyokushin Budokai" isn't Mas Oyama's Kyokushin.  Bumming had a high dan rank in judo before stepping foot in Oyama's Kyokushinkaikan dojo.  He trained there for a while, then left and formed his own art, which for all intents and purposes is an MMA art.  He named his art Kyokushin Budokai.  Kyokushin was all the rage back then, so it was possible that he was trying to ride its coattail a bit.  And Blumming, while an by all accounts an excellent practitioner and fighter, isn't a very reliable source for MA information.  He's contradicted himself quite often and many of his claims have been refuted.  But he is an excellent MAist nonetheless.


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## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> None of my boxing-derived strikes are likely to be technically correct. From now on, I'm going to claim I learned them from Bas and DB, and that's why they are so "imperfect". Yep, that's my story from now on.


If I were to teach you boxing, I would give you a set of techniques, principles, and rules to follow that the majority of boxing coaches would agree were technically correct.

If you were then to watch technical analysis of various world champions, from Ali to Tyson, you could probably find at least one great boxer consistently breaking almost every rule I taught you.

That doesn't mean these great fighters were moving suboptimally. It means they understood the rules well enough to know how and when and why to break them.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> If I were to teach you boxing, I would give you a set of techniques, principles, and rules to follow that the majority of boxing coaches would agree were technically correct.
> 
> If you were then to watch technical analysis of various world champions, from Ali to Tyson, you could probably find at least one great boxer consistently breaking almost every rule I taught you.
> 
> That doesn't mean these great fighters were moving suboptimally. It means they understood the rules well enough to know how and when and why to break them.


Since my boxing-derived punches are loosely derived therefrom, I'm likely violating more than they are. Perhaps that's why they box better than me...


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> None of my boxing-derived strikes are likely to be technically correct. From now on, I'm going to claim I learned them from Bas and DB, and that's why they are so "imperfect". Yep, that's my story from now on.



The term is unorthodox. Just so you know. I know some guys who have grown up learning very conventional boxing. It is interesting the difference.

Amateur boxers tend more towards the concept of technically correct. Pro boxers just kind of do their own thing.

So most people are not going off technically correct boxing.


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> However he was already a 2nd Dan in that style. He wasn't given those, .



How do you know that? He has been very public about dissatisfaction with Kyokushins sparring format.and why he transitioned to Muay Thai to get to punch people in the face.

Coupling together that comment, his  tender age, the timeline of switching styles back and forth, does that sound like someone staying long enough for second degree black belt?


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## Axiom

drop bear said:


> Yes it is correct. Combat sports determine correctness by effect rather than athetics.
> 
> Which is the correct way to determine correctness.



So....Has Bas Rutten ever KO*ed someone with that hook in competition? I'm not saying he hasn't, simply that it's by no means obvious simply because it was powerful. Have to be pragmatic to work as well.


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## Steve

Axiom said:


> So....Has Bas Rutten ever KO*ed someone with that hook in competition? I'm not saying he hasn't, simply that it's by no means obvious simply because it was powerful. Have to be pragmatic to work as well.


Has Bas ever KO'd someone with that hook?   Rumor is, he killed 7 with one blow.   Not in competition, though,.


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## Axiom

Steve said:


> Has Bas ever KO'd someone with that hook?   Rumor is, he killed 7 with one blow.   Not in competition, though,.



I know el guapo is a badass, but I have yet to see him KO any world class striker. withthat.  MMA japanese wrestlers is one thing... He did do well in Thaiboxing competition but I don't know what his trademark was.


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> So....Has Bas Rutten ever KO*ed someone with that hook in competition? I'm not saying he hasn't, simply that it's by no means obvious simply because it was powerful. Have to be pragmatic to work as well.



He does like to throw in competition.


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> How do you know that? He has been very public about dissatisfaction with Kyokushins sparring format.and why he transitioned to Muay Thai to get to punch people in the face.
> 
> Coupling together that comment, his  tender age, the timeline of switching styles back and forth, does that sound like someone staying long enough for second degree black belt?



How do I know that? because he said so...... I even gave you the quote where he said it and to whom.

Why are you arguing about him, why does it matter so much to you? It seems to me that you don't like him and are slagging him off because you want to discredit him. You said this was a thread about 'technique' but seem to be ranting because I called him a karateka. Well, even if he has done a minimum of karate then he's still a karateka.

You have started a thread about an _MMA_ fighter doing a _demo for a programme_ and are asking whether it's a good _boxing_ punch or not. That doesn't make sense.


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> How do I know that? because he said so...... I even gave you the quote where he said it and to whom.
> .



I'm not disputing that he holds the rank. What I am disputing is that he trained for the rank. He did not. Bas dabbled in both Taekwondo (which he claims himself he already left around green belt) and Kyokushin as a teenager before finally settling on Muay Thai as his stand-up.


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## Tony Dismukes

Axiom said:


> I'm not disputing that he holds the rank. What I am disputing is that he trained for the rank. He did not. Bas dabbled in both Taekwondo (which he claims himself he already left around green belt) and Kyokushin as a teenager before finally settling on Muay Thai as his stand-up.



You keep saying that. Do you have a source for that information? We know that Bas's 5th dan in Bluming's organization was an honorary rank. Do you have reasons for believing his 2nd dan wasn't earned? Even if he switched to Muay Thai in his teens, it's perfectly possible to earn a Kyokushin 2nd dan as a teenager.

As far as Bas's right hook, it's not orthodox by boxing, Muay Thai, or karate standards. (A rear hook to the head isn't really a standard fundamental in boxing anyway, although you can find pros using it. The lead hook is the standard technique.)

As far as Bas's technique goes, he generates power by driving off his rear leg, transferring his body weight from his rear leg to his front, while pulling his left shoulder back to aid in rotation of his hips and upper body to throw his right arm more forward. His right arm and shoulder lag slightly behind his body at the start of the rotation causing a slight elastic stretching of the muscles in his chest and front deltoids. These stretched muscles then contract before the fist makes impact, adding even more force.

It's a powerful strike, which suits Bas's style as a forward moving powerful brawler. It would be suboptimal for my style of fighting, but it certainly works well for him.


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I'm not disputing that he holds the rank. What I am disputing is that he trained for the rank. He did not. Bas dabbled in both Taekwondo (which he claims himself he already left around green belt) and Kyokushin as a teenager before finally settling on Muay Thai as his stand-up.



You are disputing he holds 2nd Dan but aren't showing us any reason to doubt him when he says he has it. You are also saying he 'dabbled' but not explaining what you mean by 'dabbling.' All you are coming out with is hearsay. When he says he has a 2nd Dan he earnt I see no reason to disbelieve him nor do I see what it has to do with his punching power.


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## Axiom

Let's drop this discussion. I have already stated how it's improbable that mr Rutten earned a second degree black belt  in the purported time he spent training as a teenager. If you want to believe he did earn it by training, then fine.


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Let's drop this discussion. I have already stated how it's improbable that mr Rutten earned a second degree black belt  in the purported time he spent training as a teenager. If you want to believe he did earn it by training, then fine.



You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. You can make all the statements you like but if you can't or won't back them up with facts then they are just your opinions.
This has nothing to do with any 'belief' especially not mine ( I don't actually care) that he gained his Dan grades by training, it has all to do with you telling us Bas Rutten is lying. You have started something you cannot finish, you has said that karatekas want to claim him, I know of no such thing, you state he didn't earn his grades, you show us nothing to back that claim up. All this because we told you he isn't a boxer yet you are critiquing his punches as if he were, to his detriment. Now you want to drop the subject, fine, but please understand how weak your points are when you provide no proof to back up your allegations. The man says he has the grades, why should we doubt him? You have a chip on your shoulder about him as well as a couple of others things, this isn't the place to brings your prejudices.


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## Steve

I don't think it's impossible for Bas to have a legit 2nd Dan in karate as a teenager, but if an 18 year old came onto this forum and alleged to be a 2nd dan, I expect he'd have to run the gauntlet.  Point being that both sides are reasonable, and neither side could possibly know the actual truth of the situation.


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