# How Brutal Were Your Black belts?



## Brmty2002 (Sep 28, 2017)

I remember when I started Karate, the black belts of the class would hit you with a stick if you got a Kata wrong. I don't do this and this practice stopped a long time ago.
Tell me your stories, did your sensei beat your a**?
Did you black belts hit you with sticks?


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## Martial D (Sep 28, 2017)

No, but my WC sifu used to hit me really hard if I messed up during chi sau or one of our attack/defense drills.

I guess that's not the same as getting whacked with a stick from behind, but it certainly gets your attention.


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## Danny T (Sep 28, 2017)

Never had a martial arts instructor really hit me in training.
Sparring yes, training no. Tapped or popped during drills with control... yes...may times. Hit no.
My instructors always maintained excellent control.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Sep 28, 2017)

Not in my Case but when we do technique we make a little contact just a tap to make you feel it


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## drop bear (Sep 28, 2017)

Mine yelled at me once.


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## Brmty2002 (Sep 29, 2017)

Guys, I tell you, there are some crazy people out there. But quite often, they are heaps dedicated.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2017)

My teacher would beat on me all the time.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2017)

I never think of any of the teachers I have had, including my GM, as being brutal.  It wasn't done.  Did they sometimes cause pain?  Yes, but it was to demonstrate a technique.  I am not sure how to say it so it doesn't sound funny, but it was obvious they were ensuring I knew the correct application of the technique and its effects, not taking pleasure in hurting me.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 29, 2017)

i have lots of stories,, not all mine but some that were told to me.  
....like this one...
 (since its not my story, the names have been changed and initialized to protect the innocent  )
 back in the 1960's  AR and JM were training in Okinawa.  there was one Okinawan senior that had a dislike for Americans or so it seemed.  there is an part of training where the sensei or sempai would "test" the students.  the student would stand in a sanchin stance and the sempai would punch and kick the student to help the student find his center and work on conditioning. (the point was not to beat the crap out of the student)  well this one Senior would really punch and kick AR and JM  with everything he had.  but AR said he was not going to let this guy win and would not give him the satisfaction to see how much it hurt.  after one such session the two students walked down the hill after class heads held high ,, then totally collapsed under a tree,  they couldnt walk any further.  legs and arms bruised and beaten.. AR said " one day im gonna get that SOB....well that Sensei passed away in 2014.  AR is still alive and kicking.  so at least he outlived the guy.
(AR also has a reputation to be a very tough guy....he knocked me out demonstrating a technique once back in 2001)


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2017)

Brmty2002 said:


> Guys, I tell you, there are some crazy people out there. But quite often, they are heaps dedicated.


I make it a point to not train with crazy people.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 29, 2017)

here is a clip of sanchin testing


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Mine yelled at me once.


You're such a snowflake, DB.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

I had one who would give a moderate whack with a bamboo stick if your leg was off in some stances. It wasn't often, so you never knew when it was coming. He'd walk around the edges of the mats, and sometimes he'd have that stick behind his back. So, you'd finish a technique and "whack". Not a word, on those occasions.

I didn't get any of that, because I was VERY low rank under him. Those who were higher rank under him did, though.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 29, 2017)

the worst and most painfull i ever received was from a Daito- ryu aiki guy named Dan Harden.  i walked into his dojo with black belts in karate and aikido,  so maybe he wanted to "show" me something. but i was working with him and he did a judo style throw and i landed on my side in a textbook breakfall but this particular throw ends with the nage landing on top of you.  i learned that day the meeting the ground with a 200 pound body landing on top of you is worse than any punch someone can dish out.  broken ribs?  oh yes.  something i will never forget.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> the worst and most painfull i ever received was from a Daito- ryu aiki guy named Dan Harden.  i walked into his dojo with black belts in karate and aikido,  so maybe he wanted to "show" me something. but i was working with him and he did a judo style throw and i landed on my side in a textbook breakfall but this particular throw ends with the nage landing on top of you.  i learned that day the meeting the ground with a 200 pound body landing on top of you is worse than any punch someone can dish out.  broken ribs?  oh yes.  something i will never forget.


Wow, broken ribs just because he wanted to "show" you that his dick is bigger?  

Did he at least offer to reimburse your medical expenses?


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## Buka (Sep 29, 2017)

We didn't have any black belts other than our instructor. And he was a pansy.
No disrespect intended.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2017)

Buka said:


> We didn't have any black belts other than our instructor. And he was a pansy.
> No disrespect intended.


None taken.  Oh wait - you were never my student!


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 29, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> None taken.  Oh wait - you were never my student!



Buka has trained with everyone. Maybe he was , you can never be certain.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Buka has trained with everyone. Maybe he was , you can never be certain.


Agreed. And if they weren't martial artists, then he has eaten a sandwich in their presence or some such thing.


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## marques (Sep 29, 2017)

Not much in that sense. It was more 'inadequate language' for our mental toughness, they said. But they were 'untouchable', even looking sleepy!!

Often we could feel the pain of a strike or lock, but it was almost always with control and no relevant damage. Apart a couple of exceptions for training and evaluation purposes.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 29, 2017)

No. My instructor's are professionals. There is no punishment administered. A student can be an uke and come away with some minor pains or bruises, but that's not at all the same thing.


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## MA_Student (Sep 30, 2017)

Tbh if a black belt beats you with sticks because you made a mistake or anything at all really they're not true black belts or martial artists they're just bullies with a big ego who think they can get away with anything.

If a black belt tried to hit me for any reasonoutside of a demo or sparring situation or anything that's not related to training I'd try and hit him right back. Not saying I'd win but I wouldn't just stand there and take it.


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## Hyoho (Sep 30, 2017)

Most of my life in Japan teaching to compete in national championships. Weekends at fighting practice with other campus. I have seen some very brutal sensei in my time. But we always got the same results and better with professional approach. 

Worst thing with us is new students hyperventilating and collapsing due to the extreme tension of a new killing pace.


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## WaterGal (Sep 30, 2017)

I would not train with someone who beat their students with sticks just for making a mistake. Telling kids to do push-ups if they're goofing off, okay, or kicking someone out of class, sure, but I find corporal punishment entirely unacceptable.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 30, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Tbh if a black belt beats you with sticks because you made a mistake or anything at all really they're not true black belts or martial artists they're just bullies with a big ego who think they can get away with anything.
> 
> If a black belt tried to hit me for any reasonoutside of a demo or sparring situation or anything that's not related to training I'd try and hit him right back. Not saying I'd win but I wouldn't just stand there and take it.



Hitting students with sticks is a great way to get a lawsuit.


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## JR 137 (Sep 30, 2017)

I'm assuming the "stick" in question is/was a shinai?

I've seen one used in a way I'd call appropriate if it's a consenting adult, but it's a fine line IMO...






That's Shigeru Oyama when he was in Kyokushin.  He founded World Oyama Karate later on.  IMO he's not using the shinai as punishment, it's a way to condition, remind the student of posture, keep them focused, etc.  The shinai has a very loud sound when it hits, as it's essentially a bunch of bamboo strips tied together.

I'm not saying I'd like it, but I'm sure some people accept it.  Horses for courses and all.  I've seen other videos of the kata Sanchin being done by students where the instructor hits them with the shinai.  Again, conditioning, focus, posture, etc.  I've also seen videos of people sparring and the instructor will hit a student with a shinai if he's backing away, stalling, not aggressive enough, etc. The teacher in the Kyokushin episode of Fight Quest had one in a scene or two.  These things may sound brutal, but they're not if done the right way.  Again, there's a fine line.  Shigeru Oyama seemed like he had one a lot of videos I've seen.  He was known as a tough as nails instructor who genuinely loved and cared about his students.  By all accounts, he wasn't doing it to beat on his students, he was using it as a supplementary teaching tool.  I guess it's one of those things you have to experience to truly understand.  I've never trained under him, but I know several people who have.  My CI was around him way back in the 70s Kyokushin era.  He's got nothing but great things to say about him.


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## Hyoho (Sep 30, 2017)

Sorry to say I think this guys a fecking idiot and has a total disrespect for a weapon designed "NOT" to inflict injury. If you can get the best out of your students by 'not' doing that.


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## JR 137 (Sep 30, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Sorry to say I think this guys a fecking idiot and has a total disrespect for a weapon designed "NOT" to inflict injury. If you can get the best out of your students by 'not' doing that.


Is this in response to my post or the original post?


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## Hyoho (Sep 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Is this in response to my post or the original post?



Your post. I have trained teams to win the All Japans 'twice' and All Japan individuals winners using this weapon.  A shinai is used to hit protected areas. There are 'other' methods of getting the best. Most are already natural born fighters when we choose them. Just a matter of tapping in and channeling that ability.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 1, 2017)

Why does a black belt test need to be brutal? If you know the technique, and can apply it in a legitimate circumstance, why do you need to either: prove that you have the stamina to fight X other black belts for X amount of time, or 

Prove that you can beat people going for the same rank as you.


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## drop bear (Oct 1, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Why does a black belt test need to be brutal? If you know the technique, and can apply it in a legitimate circumstance, why do you need to either: prove that you have the stamina to fight X other black belts for X amount of time, or
> 
> Prove that you can beat people going for the same rank as you.



Hardship is ultimately how you make a fighter.

Actually Kudo is mad keen for that kind of thing. My coach who is a champion MMA fighter and a guy ian bone who is a champion MMA fighter both did their black belts for kudo at the same time.

Which meant some bunch of poor bastards had to fight both of them full contact.

Which seems a bit rough considering.

The ruleset is fairly unrestricted.


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## Hyoho (Oct 1, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Why does a black belt test need to be brutal? If you know the technique, and can apply it in a legitimate circumstance, why do you need to either: prove that you have the stamina to fight X other black belts for X amount of time, or
> 
> Prove that you can beat people going for the same rank as you.



 If you have done the work preceding that particular grade its easy.  That's the reason we have a time limit between grades. Time to reach that level.

Yet again we seem to see a "back belt" as some god like attainment. Grades are recognition of the level we have already reached although some seem to think otherwise.


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## JP3 (Oct 1, 2017)

My Iaido sensei cut off my head one time because I looked at him funny.

Nah.  Never had a teacher do anything offensive to me. I did have a couple of them whup my a$$ in class however, when I got stupid and: A) thought that I was better than I was; or B) Thought I'd like to test my skills on them (See A).  Hardheaded. But, I did learn fast, and with the learning, came less and less of a need to test it or show it off.  

It was like it was working or something.


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## JR 137 (Oct 1, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Your post. I have trained teams to win the All Japans 'twice' and All Japan individuals winners using this weapon.  A shinai is used to hit protected areas. There are 'other' methods of getting the best. Most are already natural born fighters when we choose them. Just a matter of tapping in and channeling that ability.


No argument from me here.  I respect your opinion and agree.  The shinai used that way isn't something I'd seek out, and there are other ways.  But I deeply respect Shigeru Oyama and the methods he used too.  IMO he did it in a way that didn't cross the line and was effective for his students.  He's trained some very high level competitors, such as Joko Ninomiya and Willie Williams, both of whom are in that video.

The shinai sounds so much harder than it actually is.  And he's using it with high ranking and consenting adults.  If he genuinely wanted to exercise his authority over them and/or throw a beating on them, I'm quite sure Shigeru Oyama didn't need a shinai to do so.

Again, differences of opinion and nothing more IMO.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 1, 2017)

Brmty2002 said:


> I remember when I started Karate, the black belts of the class would hit you with a stick if you got a Kata wrong. I don't do this and this practice stopped a long time ago.
> Tell me your stories, did your sensei beat your a**?
> Did you black belts hit you with sticks?


I've been roughed up in sparring, but that's part of what sparring is about. Hitting someone with sticks for making mistakes has no place in any modern school.


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## Grenadier (Oct 1, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> That's Shigeru Oyama when he was in Kyokushin.  He founded World Oyama Karate later on.  IMO he's not using the shinai as punishment, it's a way to condition, remind the student of posture, keep them focused, etc.  The shinai has a very loud sound when it hits, as it's essentially a bunch of bamboo strips tied together.
> 
> Shigeru Oyama seemed like he had one a lot of videos I've seen.  He was known as a tough as nails instructor who genuinely loved and cared about his students.  By all accounts, he wasn't doing it to beat on his students, he was using it as a supplementary teaching tool.  I guess it's one of those things you have to experience to truly understand.  I've never trained under him, but I know several people who have.  My CI was around him way back in the 70s Kyokushin era.  He's got nothing but great things to say about him.




If he and his brother are anything alike, I'd have to strongly agree.  

I've met Shihan Yasuhiko Oyama (he had three schools in the Birmingham, Alabama area at one time) several times, and have never known him to be anything other than a dedicated instructor of Kyokushin Karate, who wants his students to be the best they can be, both as Karate practitioners and as human beings.  Yes, he is known as being a challenging instructor, but he does so in a way that was encouraging towards each and every one of his students.


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## JR 137 (Oct 2, 2017)

Grenadier said:


> If he and his brother are anything alike, I'd have to strongly agree.
> 
> I've met Shihan Yasuhiko Oyama (he had three schools in the Birmingham, Alabama area at one time) several times, and have never known him to be anything other than a dedicated instructor of Kyokushin Karate, who wants his students to be the best they can be, both as Karate practitioners and as human beings.  Yes, he is known as being a challenging instructor, but he does so in a way that was encouraging towards each and every one of his students.


You're the first person I've spoken to who's actually met and commented on Yasuhiko Oyama.  Everything you've said is exactly how I've heard Shigeru Oyama described.  I briefly met Shigeru Oyama once when I lived a few minutes away from his White Plains, NY dojo.  I was looking to start training again and knew a few guys who trained there.  My CI was also in Kyokushin under Tadashi Nakamura during the Fighting Black Kings era, and the Oyama brothers and Nakamura regularly taught together.  My CI was in their classes a few times. They all said Shigeru Oyama was very demanding.  But he was equally loving of his students and wanted nothing but the best for them and from them.  I've heard so many Shigeru Oyama stories from people who were around him that it's like I knew him.  When I met him, even though it was barely more than a handshake and introduction, I knew everything they said was true.  Watching him teach the class I observed confirmed it all.  

Those guys weren't salesmen.  They taught the way they truly felt it was supposed to be taught.  People can argue the methods, but the motives were pure.

Thanks for the comments on Yasuhiko Oyama.  If you've got some stories, I'd love to hear them.  My CI didn't have much contact with him.  He was probably overshadowed by his brother and Nakamura back then.


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## Grenadier (Oct 4, 2017)

Regarding Yasuhiko Oyama, I do have an interesting story.  

I recall going to watch the World Oyama Knockdown Tournament (they used to hold it every year at Samford University), back when he and his brother would bring in fighters from Japan to compete, along with a fair number of other folks.  

Sometime in the last decade at one such event, I remember seeing how one particularly badly-behaving fighter lost in a split decision at the end, and the guy started screaming at the judges, and even started yelling at Shihan Oyama, hollering "WHAT WERE THEY LOOKING AT?!?  HOW COULD THEY NOT SEE EVERYTHING?!?" in a rather hysterical manner.   

Shihan Oyama simply waited for him to burn through his angry energy.  After the guy exhausted himself, Shihan Oyama calmly explained to the guy what happened without raising his voice at all, and in the end, the guy simply walked out of the venue, without causing any more trouble.  That was one rather impressive job of defusing an ugly situation, and keeping things calm and cool.  

That's certainly an important thing we can all learn from him, given how all too many people lose their heads in this day and age, and that often times, we have to deal with them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2017)

Grenadier said:


> Regarding Yasuhiko Oyama, I do have an interesting story.
> 
> I recall going to watch the World Oyama Knockdown Tournament (they used to hold it every year at Samford University), back when he and his brother would bring in fighters from Japan to compete, along with a fair number of other folks.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, that "like" was for the story, not your avatar. I actually compulsively checked my coffee cup for large, hairy spiders while reading it.


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## frank raud (Oct 4, 2017)

When I started training in the 80's, our instructors weren't using the shinai to correct your form, although a few of my instructors have stories about it being used on them. There are excercises that have, shall we say, gone out of fashion. We used to do leg raises, and have to hold them while the instructor walked around and stepped on everyone's stomach. They would just place there foot on some people and literally walk on others. The other one I'm glad we don't do anymore was reserved for the black belt only class. Last Sunday of the month. The entire class doing wall sits, and having an instructor walk across everyone's thighs. Made playing British Bulldog seem easy.


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## Buka (Oct 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just to be clear, that "like" was for the story, not your avatar. I actually compulsively checked my coffee cup for large, hairy spiders while reading it.



From the very first time I came on MT, Grenadier has the coolest avatar ever. A work of art, actually.

Sorry to derail. Move along now.


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## Brmty2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I had one who would give a moderate whack with a bamboo stick if your leg was off in some stances. It wasn't often, so you never knew when it was coming. He'd walk around the edges of the mats, and sometimes he'd have that stick behind his back. So, you'd finish a technique and "whack". Not a word, on those occasions.
> 
> I didn't get any of that, because I was VERY low rank under him. Those who were higher rank under him did, though.


Yeah, mine did that too. It hurts more when you don't expect it.


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## Brmty2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

Buka said:


> We didn't have any black belts other than our instructor. And he was a pansy.
> No disrespect intended.


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