# Global Kenpo Council



## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

If we could develop such a vehicle...... who should be in it, what would you have each do, how would you structrue it, for what purpose, what would be the curriculum flexability (if any), and how would you start it.........

 :asian:


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 3, 2004)

That would be a dream!..if you had some amswers to your questions.I have always felt that Kenpo could be a more competitive MA than Teakwondo has become,don't give up getting answers!


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## RCastillo (Mar 3, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> If we could develop such a vehicle...... who should be in it, what would you have each do, how would you structrue it, for what purpose, what would be the curriculum flexability (if any), and how would you start it.........
> 
> :asian:



To start out, a member of all major systems of Kenpo to be reperesented on the board with rotating Leadership every year. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> To start out, a member of all major systems of Kenpo to be reperesented on the board with rotating Leadership every year. :asian:



That sounds like a good idea, but maybe a 2 year term v.s. just one year, but longer than that, would be possibly too dominant toward one person or philosophy.

:asian:


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 3, 2004)

There would need to be a board of "major members"


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> There would need to be a board of "major members"



That also sounds good.... Who would you think would be on that board....  Who do you consider "Major Members" or leaders?

:asian:


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 3, 2004)

Is Al Tracy still alive?Larry Tatum?


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> Is Al Tracy still alive?Larry Tatum?



Last I knew of they were.

 :asian:


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 3, 2004)

The list of possible " board if directors" could be quite long.I can think of as many as 50 people qualified.I'd start by seeing who would want to do it.One thing about Kenpo systems that I have come to realize is that ther are far more registered Black Belts than any other system in the world,and Masters as well.That would be my sugestion,put out as many "feelers" as posible to see who would be interested.Then look at that list.Try to pick the ones who represent the most schools as possible,then a few independants  to keep the rest of then honest.Then,the hard part,get them ALL together to agree(HaHa!)on a constitution.It can be done though with the right leadership!


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> The list of possible " board if directors" could be quite long.I can think of as many as 50 people qualified.I'd start by seeing who would want to do it.One thing about Kenpo systems that I have come to realize is that ther are far more registered Black Belts than any other system in the world,and Masters as well.That would be my sugestion,put out as many "feelers" as posible to see who would be interested.Then look at that list.Try to pick the ones who represent the most schools as possible,then a few independants  to keep the rest of then honest.Then,the hard part,get them ALL together to agree(HaHa!)on a constitution.It can be done though with the right leadership!



Good thoughts..... so post you possible list.

 :asian:


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 3, 2004)

go to www.kenponet.com he flame achives,family tree would be a good place to start


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## Old Guy (Mar 3, 2004)

Identify those who are the best in certain areas to have them bring their specialties to the art...encyclopedia, speed, power, knife, stick, ground fighting, etc.  Bring them together as the council.

Cheers,
OG


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> go to www.kenponet.com he flame achives,family tree would be a good place to start



Too easy... and not really effective {IMHO}..... To broad a list because, many are Dead, inactive, disappeared, changed systems, etc.  we need specific names to start a qualified list, then make calls if anything is to advance.

 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

Old Guy said:
			
		

> Identify those who are the best in certain areas to have them bring their specialties to the art...encyclopedia, speed, power, knife, stick, ground fighting, etc.  Bring them together as the council.  Cheers, OG



Another great comment but no names to start the list with.   :idunno:    :lookie:


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## MisterMike (Mar 3, 2004)

You have to get like-minded people to come together for the same cause. Even if you find the skilled ones, they may have no interest. There's a lot of ego out there. Good luck though  :asian:


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## Seig (Mar 3, 2004)

If I were to seriously consider such an endeavor, I would have to look to the model of our government.  There are very specific guidelines.  First off, like any governing body, a constitution must be written and ratified.  Once a basic framework was in place, then the leaders should start being elected.  Again, I would use our government as the model with a president, vice president,(regardless of organization) and a congress.  The congress also has the sub-division of Senators (regardless of organization) and Representatives (X number allowed from each organization with a sliding scale depending on size and geographics).  Each of these offices is an elected official.  Some of the whole governing body, others from their area of residence.  Each's term is also governed to a set amount of time before they can be re-elected or ousted.  In a situation like this, were I writing the draft of the constitution, I would spell out that the President and Vice President must be from different organizations and at least a rank of 7th degree(legitimate).  While in office and presiding over anything official, no actual rank designator would be worn as it would be counterproductive and irrelevant.  I would further stipulate that each Senator be at least 5th degree and each representative at least a second degree.  Each to be elected by Kenpo practitioners.  The poll keepers would not be allowed to run for office while holding those positions. With a governing body in place, committees could be formed that could look into issues of curriculuum.  Once a committee has reached a resolution it is presented to the "House" and then the "Senate", etc.  AS with anything as large as Kenpo, there must be checks and balances to keep the whole thing from becoming lopsided or just an extension of someone else's organization.  One of the things that would need to be addressed early on in terms of curriculuum is not wether 32-24-16 is more valid, but what constitutes quality of technique.  Sub-Commitees for promotions could also be convened, world wide.  This would allow a common standard to be set forth, regardless of curriculuum.


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## ikenpo (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, 

I suppose the thought would be to have a blanket organization that encourages unity among the various groups. One of the main concerns should probably be quality of instruction and understanding of concepts and principles.  At some point there should be the goal to share best practices among the various groups to allow the system to grow from the collective synergy. I think it would be a mistake to try to conform everyones techniques only because there will always be different methods of execution. Of course the die hards may argue otherwise. Without this kind of flexibility such a group will never materialize.

How would/could you start it? Regionally would be the best idea. Challenge each state to come together to form groups that support each others seminars, share technique ideas and best practices on training and teaching. I could see Houston, San Antonio and Austin doing this given their proximity. El Paso and Dallas would be a little more of a challenge given the distance, but it is very possible with the right people leading the charge. Ultimately things like this have the potential to be stifled by the big three (Money, Egos and Money)Instead of a global council I would suggestion regional collectives that tie together and then build from that. 

In regards to leaders of this council, I think too many chiefs would be a mistake. I think if you had regional collectives each one could have technical advisors for that region that assist to move the system forward and at the same time confer with each other on advances in the system. But they wouldnt have any authority on how clubs or schools ran their programs. No one I know is looking to pick up a dictator.  Also larger states could have more than one collection of technical advisors to cover a particular area.

Finally, they should look outside they system, or to Kenpoist with expertise in organizational development and money management. The two areas we have failed at so often.

In terms of who these collective leaders should be? I suppose regionally the Indians could collectively choose the chiefs will be. We already know who the big names are, but the question is could you find the sleepers that are grinding away everyday training hard at the system?  I dont know they may be too busy training to get involved in any kind of politics. 

Just my thoughts, jb :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 4, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> If I were to seriously consider such an endeavor, I would have to look to the model of our government.  There are very specific guidelines.  First off, like any governing body, a constitution must be written and ratified.  Once a basic framework was in place, then the leaders should start being elected.  Again, I would use our government as the model with a president, vice president,(regardless of organization) and a congress.  The congress also has the sub-division of Senators (regardless of organization) and Representatives (X number allowed from each organization with a sliding scale depending on size and geographics).  Each of these offices is an elected official.  Some of the whole governing body, others from their area of residence.  Each's term is also governed to a set amount of time before they can be re-elected or ousted.  In a situation like this, were I writing the draft of the constitution, I would spell out that the President and Vice President must be from different organizations and at least a rank of 7th degree(legitimate).  While in office and presiding over anything official, no actual rank designator would be worn as it would be counterproductive and irrelevant.  I would further stipulate that each Senator be at least 5th degree and each representative at least a second degree.  Each to be elected by Kenpo practitioners.  The poll keepers would not be allowed to run for office while holding those positions. With a governing body in place, committees could be formed that could look into issues of curriculuum.  Once a committee has reached a resolution it is presented to the "House" and then the "Senate", etc.  AS with anything as large as Kenpo, there must be checks and balances to keep the whole thing from becoming lopsided or just an extension of someone else's organization.  One of the things that would need to be addressed early on in terms of curriculuum is not wether 32-24-16 is more valid, but what constitutes quality of technique.  Sub-Commitees for promotions could also be convened, world wide.  This would allow a common standard to be set forth, regardless of curriculuum.


One man's legit 7th degree, is another man's fraud whom doesn't own enough schools to justify his or her rank. I don't know, its never going to happen, so why worry about the details?
Sean


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## bdparsons (Mar 4, 2004)

Am I mistaken or hasn't this already been tried with the American Kenpo Senior Council, now defunct?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 4, 2004)

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Am I mistaken or hasn't this already been tried with the American Kenpo Senior Council, now defunct?  Respects,  Bill Parsons Triangle Kenpo Institute



AKSC is not defunt.  Just isn't as active as is could be at this point.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 4, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> One man's legit 7th degree, is another man's fraud whom doesn't own enough schools to justify his or her rank. I don't know, its never going to happen, so why worry about the details?  Sean



Legitimized rank IS a concern and challenge today.  Now, who says that someone has to "own" a number of studios to justify rank????  You never know what the future may hold... so you can't say "it's never gonna happen" to anything.  No one's worrying about anything.   Just conversing on a topic that I was curious on what others feelings and comments are...

Have a coke and a smile.... :uhyeah: 

 :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 4, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Legitimized rank IS a concern and challenge today.  Now, who says that someone has to "own" a number of studios to justify rank????  You never know what the future may hold... so you can't say "it's never gonna happen" to anything.  No one's worrying about anything.   Just conversing on a topic that I was curious on what others feelings and comments are...
> 
> Have a coke and a smile.... :uhyeah:
> 
> :asian:


Last summer a certain DKL listed the requirements for levels of Black belt on the Kenponet. You should check it out.
Sean


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

Mr Tatum is still alive and kicking.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> Is Al Tracy still alive?Larry Tatum?


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

You have brought up some very good points that need to be looked at.

Thank You

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Seig said:
			
		

> If I were to seriously consider such an endeavor, I would have to look to the model of our government.  There are very specific guidelines.  First off, like any governing body, a constitution must be written and ratified.  Once a basic framework was in place, then the leaders should start being elected.  Again, I would use our government as the model with a president, vice president,(regardless of organization) and a congress.  The congress also has the sub-division of Senators (regardless of organization) and Representatives (X number allowed from each organization with a sliding scale depending on size and geographics).  Each of these offices is an elected official.  Some of the whole governing body, others from their area of residence.  Each's term is also governed to a set amount of time before they can be re-elected or ousted.  In a situation like this, were I writing the draft of the constitution, I would spell out that the President and Vice President must be from different organizations and at least a rank of 7th degree(legitimate).  While in office and presiding over anything official, no actual rank designator would be worn as it would be counterproductive and irrelevant.  I would further stipulate that each Senator be at least 5th degree and each representative at least a second degree.  Each to be elected by Kenpo practitioners.  The poll keepers would not be allowed to run for office while holding those positions. With a governing body in place, committees could be formed that could look into issues of curriculuum.  Once a committee has reached a resolution it is presented to the "House" and then the "Senate", etc.  AS with anything as large as Kenpo, there must be checks and balances to keep the whole thing from becoming lopsided or just an extension of someone else's organization.  One of the things that would need to be addressed early on in terms of curriculuum is not wether 32-24-16 is more valid, but what constitutes quality of technique.  Sub-Commitees for promotions could also be convened, world wide.  This would allow a common standard to be set forth, regardless of curriculuum.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 4, 2004)

Wow...this sounds SOOOOO familiar...

Dennis:  What mission do you propose for this council?  How would it be different from the AKSC and all of the other organizations?  

If we know what you are looking for, we could help with the nominations.

And...how would you structure a counciul diverse enough to be thoroughly inclusive that could agree on enough stuff to actually be productive?


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

I'd like to make a suggestion.

What if one purpose was to validate.

There are so many associations and schools out there. Some are real and others are not so real. If the association could help to bring credit to people who are real so that current students and would be students can have some form of re assurance in who they are studying with.

When Mr Parker was alive there werent a million and one different Kenpo Associations. There were a few but it seems to have exploded now with 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th generation students teaching.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Wow...this sounds SOOOOO familiar...
> 
> Dennis:  What mission do you propose for this council?  How would it be different from the AKSC and all of the other organizations?
> 
> ...


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## Rick Wade (Mar 4, 2004)

Maybe we could use our current rank structure.

YOu musst be a 8th or above for President elected by all certified members.  That way the Governing body goes in the direction of the mass.  You would have to pay annual dues and throw at least one huge seminar and a tournament a year.  I would like to see this opened to all Kenpo stylist that are decendents (for lack of a better word) of Ed Parker.  We could set it up with our goverment as a model (but I don't want to pay taxes ha ha).   The Board would also offer testing.  Each association that belongs to this board would actually have the same status as like one of our states.  Just some thoughts.

Thanks

Rick


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

Rick

It would be nice if this could be open to all Kenpo practitioners but do you think the current politics could pose a problem in setting up of the kenpo government  ?

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Maybe we could use our current rank structure.
> 
> YOu musst be a 8th or above for President elected by all certified members.  That way the Governing body goes in the direction of the mass.  You would have to pay annual dues and throw at least one huge seminar and a tournament a year.  I would like to see this opened to all Kenpo stylist that are decendents (for lack of a better word) of Ed Parker.  We could set it up with our goverment as a model (but I don't want to pay taxes ha ha).   The Board would also offer testing.  Each association that belongs to this board would actually have the same status as like one of our states.  Just some thoughts.
> 
> ...


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## Rick Wade (Mar 4, 2004)

Absolutely that is what would be so good about it.  Th governing body would take care of minor problems like that.  If there were enough associations in this body people would want to join after awhile.  The governing body would settle these problems.  

just so pasing thoughts.

Rick.


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## Old Guy (Mar 4, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Another great comment but no names to start the list with.   :idunno:    :lookie:



I could start with Huk as "encyclopedia".   I would need some help with some of the other areas since I can think of several others that fall into some of the other catagories, like Paul Mills and a few others for "speed".

Cheers, 
OG


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Wow...this sounds SOOOOO familiar...
> Dennis:  What mission do you propose for this council?  How would it be different from the AKSC and all of the other organizations?
> If we know what you are looking for, we could help with the nominations.
> And...how would you structure a counciul diverse enough to be thoroughly inclusive that could agree on enough stuff to actually be productive?



Wow is right!!!!!! 

I was just curious as to what people would be interested in if such and animal were to exist and be functional.  The AKSC is there but status quo.  I don't quite know what the ambition or goals are for the group at this time.

I know there is several items on the table which include the clarification,  recording, improvement, expansion, of areas like....

Communication between Instructors and groups
A detailed historical outline
Kenpo Brotherhood issues
Kenpo Traditions (old and new)
Ranking issues
Curriculum issues
Insurance issues
Business interests
Tournament competition
Instructional Seminars and Camps
Certification issues
A Global Kenpo Council of Knowledgeable Seniors to assist
any Group with issues pertaining to our Art of Kenpo
and more......

Who, what, when, why, how, are all questions that need to be answered, but so far there have been a lot of good ideas thrown out to think of and to organize thoughts on.   I am not looking for anything specific as these questions will need much group discussion and thought.  To make a council like this work it takes lots of work but it all starts with ideas.  I have my own personal ideas, which fundamentally parallel with the AKSC, but getting the machine moving is another story.  I will take lots of help, patients and teamwork I think, if it is to ever become a reality and become a group with enough diverse groups that are willing to work together for the good of Kenpo.    So at this point, any suggestions and ideas are appreciated.... what ever they are.   I hope that answers your question.

 :asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Mar 6, 2004)

I would nominate the people in "The Journey". I think that's a good point to start from, as they were regarded as one of the most active members in their generations.

Also, I'd see it more as a wise men council that a government following the rules of election of the USA. And I wouldn't do it proportionate to the number of members in a certain association, but more like one association, one vote, going from local areas to regional to national to international. This way, we have a local council for local affairs, then the regional council, etc. Just my 2 cents.


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## Maltair (Mar 6, 2004)

Where I work, when we are training a new guy, we always send then to a differant shift to get certified. It really helps to make sure that nothing was missed. As a trainer, you know what you taught them, so you won't really dig for an in depth answer. A tester would.

We could have a section that does all the testing in their area, or have certified testers in regions.

The organization should req active participation in their forum. At least read the news once a month. In this forum will be regionals, seminars, questions, a password protected area for the governing body. Use of the "submit a poll" could be a powerful tool. artyon:


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Mar 6, 2004)

Kenpomachine said:
			
		

> I would nominate the people in "The Journey". I think that's a good point to start from, as they were regarded as one of the most active members in their generations.
> 
> .


 
What chu talkin' bout Willis.   A NOT SO GOOD idea is to start with people in the Journey.

Dark Lord


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## donald (Mar 6, 2004)

There should be a board of the highest ranking legit kenpo blackbelts. That would appoint reps in the various clubs/studios around the world. The GKC would be a organization that provides training help, worldwide competetions, material certifications etc.. That is operated as a "business" to assist trainees of all levels. Using fees collected through dues, seminars, manuals, etc..

 :asian:


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## Ceicei (Mar 6, 2004)

donald said:
			
		

> There should be a board of the highest ranking legit kenpo blackbelts. The GKC would be a organization that provides training help, worldwide competetions, material certifications etc.. That is operated as a "business" to assist trainees of all levels. Using fees collected through dues, seminars, manuals, etc..
> 
> :asian:


Isn't that what existing organizations do?

- Ceicei


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## Bill Smith (Mar 6, 2004)

Mr. C, I think it would be a great dream if it was ever to happen. I think everyone in American Kenpo wants or would like to have a unified association or council. The one think that would get in the way of it happening is "egos". To benefit off of every Kenpo seniors teaching would make a well rounded Kenpo stylist. I was always taught that everyone in some point in their training learns and knows the base technique but everyone executes it differently. That's where the egos issue comes into play. It's not "I do that tech different than you or mine is better" but it is the signature of you that comes out not whos is better.

A good start is to have a group meeting with the seniors to see if a common goal in American Kenpo could be done. Find out what everyone thoughts, good and bad are and build from there.

If this makes no sence (I'm even confused) don't hold it against me. Also, didn't mean to anger or upset anyone. Just my two cents.

Mr. C, sorry I missed your call. I wasn't in when you called and saw it on my caller ID when I got home. I'll give you a call during the week.

Yours in Kenpo,
Bill Smith


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## Kenpomachine (Mar 7, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> What chu talkin' bout Willis.   A NOT SO GOOD idea is to start with people in the Journey.
> 
> Dark Lord



That would be only while the local councils worked their representatives from down up. But in the end, it is the practitioners that elect their representatives. And that's also assuming we have enough common sense to chose the best representative and not the one that promises the most.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 7, 2004)

Honestly, I don't think it would be a good idea to have a council that had any oversight over anything. I think there are too many differences, even from school to school within the same organization, to facilitate central control. There are many schools out there teaching American Kenpo that derives from Ed Parker, but is not strictly EPAK. And there are many schools out there teaching Kenpo that didn't come from Parker at all, would they be allowed membership? I think there was a time when this could have worked, and that time has passed.

However, I also desire a unified Kenpo association, and I think one could still be achieved. I think an association similar to NAPMA would be a great benefit to us all. Most of you know NAPMA, basically they charge minimal yearly fees and give you tons of business assistance and advice. They don't have any actual control that over what you teach or do though. I think a Kenpo association that operated in this fashion would be great. They could still have high ranking Kenpo practitioners in positions of power within the association. They could give technical and business advice, and sponsor events. They could be a binding force within the Kenpo community without trying to control the kenpo community. A guide, rather than a dictator. From there, it would be up to them to either prosper through success and hard work, or fail like so many others.


-Rob


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## donald (Mar 7, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Isn't that what existing organizations do?
> 
> - Ceicei



Not in my experience. What I received was a nice certificate, and a couple of decent patches. To be fair. I must mention that I was sent a news letter every now, and then, but even that was usually very out of date. Much like some of the "web sites" listed at various cyber places. I would like the aforementioned GKC. To be a real hands(see my previou post) on outfit. Anything less would be a waste of time.

 :asian:


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 7, 2004)

I would like to see a governing body for the purpose of competition,after all competition is the best promoter of Martial arts.With that said,a word of caution should be in order.Look what has happened to teakwondo.The USTU has become the dominating U.S.body with the WTF as the world body.Neither one of the organizations will interfere with individual school operations what-so-ever.What they have done is establish a central testing and rank registration body-that part is good.What bad they have done IMHO is to make competion so important that most TKD schools only teach what is required in competition.Kenpo can have one advantage over them,for the most part,we do not have any orientals that outrank us MA wise or politically,so that BIG problem won't even exist.We do not want such an organization to "water down" the art of Kenpo in any way like TKD has become.We do not want competition rules that take away anything from teaching real self defense.Creation of a world or national governing body can be a very good thing though.Rules can be established that won't take anything from the ART.To do this,rules must be agreed apon and strickly enforced.No bowing to presure from anybody.I'd love to be able to enter or coach a student in local competitions that will qualify for state competions that winners will qualify for national comps.and on and on.America has a great potenial for comp. and literally thousands of willing competitors.There already are some good tournaments going,but the number of potential competitors are too small.That's one thing we have to face when we think about what do we do to increase enrolement,what are potential students/parents looking for,what other arts are they looking at and what are we loosing students to.I hate that we have to consider the business end of things,but we all have bills to pay and we have to be able to attract students on a consistant basis to be able to keep going.Ok,enough of my rambling,let's all research the most sucessfull MA organization there is,The USTU,figure out what they do right,and figure out how we can do it better!


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## Brother John (Mar 8, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> If we could develop such a vehicle...... who should be in it, what would you have each do, how would you structrue it, for what purpose, what would be the curriculum flexability (if any), and how would you start it.........
> :asian:


To answer this at all I'd first have to ask what the over-riding purpose or mission for such an entity would be in the first place.
Honestly, I wouldn't see a need.

Your Brother
John


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## Bill Lear (Mar 8, 2004)

I don't think there should be a "Global Kenpo Council". Why do we need one? How would we benefit from it? What would be the drawbacks? There isn't a Global Barber Shop Coucil, is there? Could it be that the men out there who practice cutting hair are confident enough in their art that they don't need "Global" leadership?  :asian:


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## pete (Mar 8, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> ...after all competition is the best promoter of Martial arts.



disagree



			
				Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> ...for the most part,we do not have any orientals that outrank us MA wise or politically



huh?, and what else "no irish need apply"?



			
				Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> ...We do not want such an organization to "water down" the art of Kenpo in any way like TKD has become



organizations don't water down the arts, people do

i'd really be concerned about joining any organization that would have me as a member...

pete.


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## Rick Wade (Mar 8, 2004)

I would like to amplify on my previous comments.  I think that this is a great Idea but you have to come up with a mission statement, and stick to it.  You can't try and replace any organization.  The true organizations will continue to thrive with or without you.  I also think if the GKC is worth while the real organizations will eventually join.  As far as governing curriculum and content among the schools the GKC will not be able to do that because that would go against all of the different organizations.  There for you could let all of the different offshoots of EPAK into the Organization.
:asian: 
Thanks


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## MisterMike (Mar 8, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I don't think there should be a "Global Kenpo Council". Why do we need one? How would we benefit from it? What would be the drawbacks? There isn't a Global Barber Shop Coucil, is there? Could it be that the men out there who practice cutting hair are confident enough in their art that they don't need "Global" leadership?  :asian:



The weak usually find strength in groups. It's a herd mentality but never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

Large groups have more people therefor more $$$ which also equals power. That's why the rest of us have to be the loudmouth critics.

Any group that comes together should be exposed for what it is. Some are good, some are bad.


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## parkerkarate (Mar 8, 2004)

Wow global, I never thought of that. It would be very cool. Meeting people from all around the world. But wouldn't it be a problem because who would be the President? What orginazation would head it, so on and so forth?


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 9, 2004)

Interesting.....  A highly diverse group of Leaders that run their own organizations, but pay dues to be a part of a giant conglomerate who's only real benefit appears to be the ability to legitimize someone's rank.  Why is this the only thing they can do?  Well, they can't exactly put out manuals, because that would mean that there would be a standardized curriculum.  How do you expect to standardize a curriculum among organizations that already have detailed curriculums in place?  Besides the only way to get everyone to agree is to use vague generalities in every area of the art just to include the various philosophical viewpoints.  Isn't that what Ed Parker did to begin with?  Didn't he sell a very general curriculum to the MASSES?  Before you answer think about this: If he didn't, then the techniques wouldn't be "just ideas or vehicles" they would be *THE WAY* you do things.  

By the way, who would decide which people are legitimate enough to vote on legitimacy?  What happens if the people who are found illegitimate do not abide by the Global council's decree?  Does the Global council then engage in slanderous campaigning to "out" this horrible wretch?  Can they impose sanctions or fines?  Maybe they should develop a SWAT team to go close down schools they don't like.  Screw free enterprise, let's start our own little mafia.

An organization like the GKC would be about as useful and effective as the United Nations.  Sure they can posture and say a lot of tough things, but in the end the grand promises of Utopian splendor would be anything but.  Such an organization would trip over itself and would only be as powerful as its strongest backer.  Which, in this case, doesn't necessarily mean the best teachers, curriculum, quality, etc., rather it would be about which organization could market and or promote the best ( in other words $$$$$$)

By the way didn't we see someone try something like this just a little while ago?  I think there was like a Homecoming Camp or something that everyone was making a big to do about. I also seem to remember someone ranting about how all of us that thought it would fail were stupid, and how we are all eating our words now.  Well I would just like to ask, what happened to that grand utopia?  Seems like they have spent more time dealing with legal issues than anything else.  So much for Utopia.

As for the Kenpo Senior Council, I thought that was a joke.  I didn't know they even existed, until just a few posts ago.  Shows you how influential they actually are.


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## Seig (Mar 9, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo,

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for showing how someone attempting something positive is an absolute waste of time.  I see the errors of positive thinking now!  Gee, and here I was all misguided and thinking the Seniors deserved some respect, what was I thinking of?  Thank you for setting me back on the path of negativity.


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## Michael Billings (Mar 10, 2004)

Embrace the DARK SIDE Seig, is this an unusual post by Kenpo Yahoo?  Let those who have those opinions go their merry way, besmirching the memories of those who tried to make something better, and keep the flame alive.

 The reality bites in a lot of ways, but it is way too late to call it back, and if positive reframing does not work, there are always those who can say "I told you so" ... and everyone knows how most people feel about those who like to say "I told you so."  Kenpo Yahoo finds his own level, you don't need to join him down there.  I understand the sentiment however and respect it.

 -Michael


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 10, 2004)

> I see the errors of positive thinking now!



I never said you couldn't think positively, but if you want your Global council to work the aforementioned issues will need to be addressed.  What suggestions do you have for dealing with inter-organization cooperation?  What would be the benefits associated with such a conglomerate? Do the benefits if any really warrant the need for such an organization?  Some people have mentioned they would like to see the Council and subsequent organization set up like a government.  So how do you keep such a large group of instructors with their checks and balances, from turning into a Martial Bureaucracy?  No one said you couldn't be positive, but maybe you should be a little more realistic.



> Gee, and here I was all misguided and thinking the Seniors deserved some respect, what was I thinking of?



I never said seniors don't deserve respect, but how do you get so many Alpha male leaders to agree enough to get anything done?  Again what would be the benefits of having such an organization?  Nobody has mentioned why such an organization is necessary or even more beneficial than your average association.  Really the only thing that anyone has said is that it would be "COOL."


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 10, 2004)

> Let those who have those opinions go their merry way, besmirching the memories of those who tried to make something better, and keep the flame alive.
> 
> The reality bites in a lot of ways, but it is way too late to call it back, and if positive reframing does not work, there are always those who can say "I told you so" ... and everyone knows how most people feel about those who like to say "I told you so." Kenpo Yahoo finds his own level, you don't need to join him down there. I understand the sentiment however and respect it.
> Michael



Wait a minute now.....  when the IKKA was trying to get their crap together they spent forever talking about all the grand things that were going to happen.  A few of us wished them luck but openly stated our doubts in their ability to pull it off.  Shortly after the homecoming camp everyone was trying to rub our noses in the fact that they had one successful camp.  Well I'm here to tell you that one point on a graph does not indicate a trend, a fact that was brought to light shortly thereafter.  A few months after the camp we begin to hear about all the problems that the IKKA is experiencing, now there doesn't even seem to be an IKKA (at least for the moment).  So yes, you have to listen to me say I told you so, because I did call it.  

From a realistic standpoint how do you propose to make the conglomerate or "BIG KENPO" actually work?  What are the benefits of such an organization?  Do these benefits actually warrant the creation of such an org.?  Most of the big name instructors already teach seminars that are open to the public, and you can print up the EPAK curriculum straight off the web.  So other than testing what is the benefit of such an org?  Quality control can only be implemented in those schools that become members of BIG KENPO.  The crappy McSchools that are just in business to make money and don't care about quality aren't going to join such an org, this would take money out of their pockets.  So how is quality control a benefit?

I think it would be great to see the kenpo world gather around the campfire hold hands and sing koom-by-yah, but there are some real questions that would need to be answered, and issues that would need to be looked at in an objective manner.  

Seig, I'm sorry you had to stoop down to my level (right... :moon:  :2xbird: ).  I'm also sorry that you have neglected to answer any of the important questions, like how to make it work, or what the real benefits might be.  I'm not keeping you from your dream of reunification, I'm just stating my opinion which is based on what I've seen in the past.  If you thought that this was such a great idea, you wouldn't have been so easily dissuaded.  

By the way if you want to be pissed at me because the Easter Bunny isn't real you can go ahead and do that too.  I didn't kill him or anything, but then again I didn't kill the GKC either.  Oh well.......


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## Michael Billings (Mar 10, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo

 NO RESPONSE.

 -Michael


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## parkerkarate (Mar 10, 2004)

Could someone tell me why this is so bad. I thought that Kenpo people were suposed to be like a family. Isn't that what Mr. Parker wanted. I could be wrong but I do not understand why this is such  bad idea for some people. Meeting new people from different countries. THe only problem I would see is who would be the head of the orgaization, so on and so forfth.


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## rmcrobertson (Mar 10, 2004)

Whenever I read this argument, I become glad that I have a back yard, a lot of videos and books, and enough knowledge to keep me busy and learning for the rest of my life. 

Has anybody even noticed what happens every time some org like this gets ballyhooed? Taken into account what has happened even in the very traditional Asian "national," orgs? 

It's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned, that nobody will be able to get such a Thing together.


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## WhiteTiger (Mar 10, 2004)

To what purpose, what would be their authoirty?


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## parkerkarate (Mar 10, 2004)

I don't mean to be rude but what belt are you?


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## Rick Wade (Mar 10, 2004)

Let me start by saying that I am not part of any organization and I would like to see ONE organization (I personally don't care what it is called IKKA, GKC, high kicking society what ever).  I will support the GKC if their agenda offers something diffrent but good for Kenpo.  Right now Most credible Associations or Organizations are mostly the same to the students.  It mostly depends on where you live as to what organization you belong to.  Just to Cause more contoversy here are a list of my credible organizations not in any particular order:

LTKKA
AKKI
John Sepulvada org
UKS
IKKA (under ED Parker Jr.) (it will be back on its feet and better in the near future)
IKKO

These are the Major ones in my mind.
Now that doesn't mean that there aren't great instructors in and out of these organizations.  However I think that we are missing the Key word:  ORGANIZATION  If we were organized life would be much better.  That is why I would be in favor of a GKC.
artyon: 

Thanks


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## Michael Billings (Mar 10, 2004)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I don't mean to be rude but what belt are you?


 I am not sure that the question is relevant; state your objection or arguement, and don't try to lengthen your own line by cutting another's short. While I do not always agree with White Tiger (or anyone else for that matter) his history of posts and depth of knowledge appear to match his profile. Not everyone has the same lineage or perspective.

 Saying "I don't mean to be rude", is a lot like saying "with all due respect" then slamming someone. At least it appears to be in this context. Please correct me if I am wrong, but opinions can be criticized, without attacking the person. Saying "... what belt are you?", without qualifiers is attacking the person in some ways, not just his/her opinion or lack of experience or depth of knowledge.

  -Michael
  Just Keepin' the Peace.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 10, 2004)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Let me start by saying that I am not part of any organization and I would like to see ONE organization (I personally don't care what it is called IKKA, GKC, high kicking society what ever).  I will support the GKC if their agenda offers something diffrent but good for Kenpo.  Right now Most credible Associations or Organizations are mostly the same to the students.  It mostly depends on where you live as to what organization you belong to.  Just to Cause more contoversy here are a list of my credible organizations not in any particular order:
> 
> LTKKA
> AKKI
> ...


. Hey, the organization I belong to isn't listed. I guess that makes it incredible. artyon:  :uhyeah: 
Sean


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 10, 2004)

I'll tell ya'll one thing that WKC could be a positive thing for,a central rank registration registry.What if someone earned rank a long time ago,and their school and instructors had died afterwards?Who do they look to ,to have a copy of it or for someone to verify their credentials?That is a worthwhile endevour of it's own.


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## Seig (Mar 10, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Embrace the DARK SIDE Seig, is this an unusual post by Kenpo Yahoo? Let those who have those opinions go their merry way, besmirching the memories of those who tried to make something better, and keep the flame alive.
> 
> The reality bites in a lot of ways, but it is way too late to call it back, and if positive reframing does not work, there are always those who can say "I told you so" ... and everyone knows how most people feel about those who like to say "I told you so." Kenpo Yahoo finds his own level, you don't need to join him down there. I understand the sentiment however and respect it.
> 
> -Michael


Michael,
I wasn't stooping, I was trying to elicit a specific response, and I got it, read on.




			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I never said you couldn't think positively, but if you want your Global council to work the aforementioned issues will need to be addressed. What suggestions do you have for dealing with inter-organization cooperation?


Inter-organizational problems will always exist. The only way to do realistically deal with it goes back to my goverment model. By setting it up in a way that all members get to vote on issues. Like any democratic body, compromises will have to be sought on a variety of issues. You and I fundamentally disagree on many things, I am sure, but does that mean that a middle ground or a commonality cannot be found? I don't think so.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> What would be the benefits associated with such a conglomerate?


I do not know all of the answers here, but there are some that would be obvious. First off, there would be a sanctioning body, this would help to root out and expose those that are giving EPAK a bad name in some quarters. I could probably write a dissertation on this but find this not the time or the place. It would also facilitate the passing of informatiuon between groups. There are what I call the purists and the evolutionists, both have valid ideas. Wouldn't be a positive thing to have a venue where these ideas could go back and forth? Then if someone did come up with a revolutionary new innovation, all could benefit from it. 


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Do the benefits if any really warrant the need for such an organization?


I believe so, there is too much bad kenpo and too many charlatans out there. This would provide a way for people new to Kenpo or those that have been defrauded into believing they are training with Ed Parker's secret ninja master to have a way to either validate their training or to invalidate something or someone that needs it. It would also provide a more open community to allow Kenpo to continue to grow. Look at people that have studied for years that wake up one day and find they have no instructor, this would make for a fall back scenario that would allow them to continue their journey in such a way that they would not continually have to start over.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Some people have mentioned they would like to see the Council and subsequent organization set up like a government. So how do you keep such a large group of instructors with their checks and balances, from turning into a Martial Bureaucracy?


That's the beauty of it, you can vote them out or impeach them.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> No one said you couldn't be positive, but maybe you should be a little more realistic.


 Negative does not always = realistic. There has never been a system that was perfect or even at it's best at it's inception. Everything has to go through grwoing pains and evolutions.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I never said seniors don't deserve respect, but how do you get so many Alpha male leaders to agree enough to get anything done?


So, you didn't say 





> As for the Kenpo Senior Council, I thought that was a joke.


?
I believe the "Alpha male leaders" agree more than you may think. Many of them maintain friendships to this day. It appears you are still thinking in terms of one person in charge indefinately. Since Mr. Mills and Mr. Tatum are both so popular on this board, I am going to use them as examples. Let's say that for the first term, Mr. Mills is President and Mr. Tatum is Vice President. Neither has autonamy, if they have a proposal, they have to put it to the "Congress" and "Representatives", once the idea has been worked out, it goes to the members. Once they have looked at it, it goes back up the chain. Is it efficient, probably not, but it is fair. I don't think the idea is to set up the Council of 12 to be the end all be all of Kenpo.


			
				Kepo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Again what would be the benefits of having such an organization?


Asked and answered. The benefits would continue to grow as the organization did.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Nobody has mentioned why such an organization is necessary or even more beneficial than your average association.


We see that argument all the time, standardization, not necessarily on curriculuum, but on quality. Also, validation. It might stop so many people that do not deserve ranks from putting them on in Mr. Parker's name.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Really the only thing that anyone has said is that it would be "COOL."


Ya know, it just might at that.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Seig, I'm sorry you had to stoop down to my level (right... :moon: :2xbird: ).


I didn't, I programmed you to respond in a manner I perceived you would.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I'm also sorry that you have neglected to answer any of the important questions, like how to make it work, or what the real benefits might be.


Actually, I posted very early on on how I would make a start of it. I'm not high enough on the food chain to "make it work". I also thought the benefits would be obvious to the open mind.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I'm not keeping you from your dream of reunification, I'm just stating my opinion which is based on what I've seen in the past. If you thought that this was such a great idea, you wouldn't have been so easily dissuaded.


I am not a Romulan. I do not see reunification as possible or realistic. What I see is a brotherhood built on friendship, comraderie, and commonality. I see Kenpoists supporting each other on their journeys. I still think it's a great idea and I was never dissuaded. I am really surprised you didn't see the sarcasm dripping from your screen. 


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> By the way if you want to be pissed at me because the Easter Bunny isn't real you can go ahead and do that too.


First off all, I am a jew.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I didn't kill him


No, I did and he was delicious. 


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> but then again I didn't kill the GKC either. Oh well.......


No, you didn't. If you were to take your thoughts and concerns and put them into a positive manner and use constructive criticism with your obviously good critical thinking skills, think of what an asset you could be.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 10, 2004)

I think you misunderstood what I said or perhaps I wasn't clear when I said


> As for the Kenpo Senior Council, I thought that was a joke.



I did not mean that I thought it was a joke, like hey what a bunch of losers look at them.  What I meant was I thought it was a joke, like "hey that's not a real organization, it's something you made up."  

I imagined some guy sitting around, watching Star Wars a few too many times, and then saying," Hey you know what we need?  A Senior council, just like the Jedi have."  With all this talk about the "dark side" and/or "the force is strong in this one" b.s., I just figured this was another Star Wars joke that somebody made up a while back.  Especially since I hadn't heard of them doing anything within the community.  That's why I was surprised when Mr. Conatser brought up the Senior Council which I thought to be myth, or in otherwords someone's joke.

Anyway, at least your last response brought a little objective substance to the discussion.  Something being COOL only goes so far, then there has to be some sort of plan or reasoning to support it.  I think it would be cool if I could own and carry, in public (in the U.S.), a fully automatic M-4 with grenade launcher and silencer (obviously for the gun not the grenade launcher), but why the hell do I need a toy.... errr.. I mean firearm like this?  Sure owning such a weapon would be cool, but sorta unnecessary at least for my purposes.

I could really care less if anyone on this board likes me, but I am going to keep asking questions popular or unpopular?  Just because there are methods in place doesn't mean that they are good, or even what Mr. Parker intended them to be at this time.  It never hurts to question.  If there is a valid logical reason that can withstand a little scrutiny, much like science or mathematical hypothesis' must face, then it shouldn't be a problem to question these methods.  However, if they don't withstand scrutiny then a reason for failure must be found and/or an appropriate solution be drawn up.  

Anyway, I'm starting to meander between subjects so I'll shut up now.  Keep the Reunification Dream alive, if you so choose, but at least try to approach it in an objective manner.


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## Seig (Mar 11, 2004)

Now, that was a good post.


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## Rick Wade (Mar 11, 2004)

Pardon my mistake I do have a great deal of respect for Kenpo 2000.  My apologies.  And Yes Most all American Kenpo is incredible.  As long as we can remember that we can all get along.  I will consider this the first step in reconciling our chat room friendship.  Truce?

Respectfully
Rick


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 11, 2004)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Pardon my mistake I do have a great deal of respect for Kenpo 2000.  My apologies.  And Yes Most all American Kenpo is incredible.  As long as we can remember that we can all get along.  I will consider this the first step in reconciling our chat room friendship.  Truce?
> 
> Respectfully
> Rick


Truce. I have already forgotten what we were arguing about. :asian: 
Sean


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## DavidCC (Apr 30, 2004)

just for consideration, some thoughts from a manager: 

the bigger the goal, the bigger the miss. 

An organization has 2 parts - the leaders and the members. 

The best members belong to benefit from the fruits of the labors of the leaders, and eventually bear fruit themselves. The worst members belong in order to become leaders.

The leaders are a team that produce something - benefits for the members.

It won't come to exist in a vacuum so you have to include existing leaders of the community that you wish to assist. 

So, in light of all that...

You want to start a new organization, you have to start small - you need 2 things. You need a leadership team and you need to develop a benefit to offer.

To have a team you have to communicate. Establish a channel of communication between the leadership team. It must be open and available to address the group as a whole (not a phone list, more like a conference call) It must be frequently used. it must be private so that they can be candid. It must be personal so that it can be accountable. (that rules out a chat room or a forum). 

So, the bigger the goal the bigger the miss. Develop one benefit, and offer it to people. That's not an organization, it's just a service to anyone interested. If that takes off do it again, a few times and then you might have the beginning of an organization. Don't try to replicate the Federal Beuaracracy, do you realize how silly that sounds LOL. What has the gov't done for you lately hahaha Who will run K-OSHA?

Start small, involve the existing leadership of the community, develop and offer benefits of real value and let those who appreciate them evolve into an organization.

possible benefits, just taken from this website iI've read in the last week: produce new texts, teaching materials, or visual aids. competition sponsorship and sanction. rank testing and sanction. school locator and references database. Instructor instruction (quality assurance). a clearing house and / or laboratory or library for research. a museum. 

those are all very exciting ideas!

I could go on, but this post is already 3 times longer than I intended...

Thanks for your time...

David


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## Kenpomachine (May 1, 2004)

No, we don't hate it. And even less if the post is helpful and gives some good ideas and is positive


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## Fastmover (May 1, 2004)

Here are my short thoughts:

1. There are too many organizations..............extremely happy and successful
.........teaching and promoting their own philosophy. Why would these groups
want to join? At the moment there is something out there for everyone.

2. The seniors today, themselves do not agree on many issues involving Kenpo. If the seniors can not get together and agree with each other....
......then how are the rest of us expected to? Along these lines I do not think
such an venture would be successful without one true leader. 

3. We all can not politely discuss and respect each others different opinions 
on the forums, how would we ever do this within a close personal union?

4. So much of the leaders efforts would be spent dealing with political
 pressures and agendas that nothing would probably ever get done. Certainly
dealing with so many issues would take time away from teaching Kenpo.
Sorry Id rather see the seniors dedicating their time to teaching and doing
seminars to pass on their knowledge. 

I could be wrong and I hate being negative, but I dont think such 
an arrangement would work.

John


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