# The Khazar Myth and the new antisemitism



## Archangel M (Jun 8, 2010)

A continuation of the discussion about the politicization of Jewish ancestry, genetics and the "Khazar Myth".

http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=2220



> It is one of the great ironies of the 21st century that anti-Zionists and anti-Semites on both the Left and the Right, have returned to racialist arguments against Jews that most of us thought had died out after World War II.
> 
> One of the most bizarre aspects of this "re-racializing" of anti-Semitism is the role played by the Khazar myth.
> 
> ...



This should fit right in with some peoples "tin hattery":



> I discovered scores of neo-Nazi websites claiming that "Khazar Zionists" were really behind the 9/11 attacks. I found thousands of websites claiming that "Khazar Jew-pretenders" are in a conspiratorial league with Freemasons, the Vatican, the Illuminati and others to control the world.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 8, 2010)

How can anyone ever answer this question when both sides have been spun so much that no one can say anything without being accused of bias and discredited?


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## CanuckMA (Jun 8, 2010)

It has been answered. No evidence has ever been found supporting a mass conversion of Khazars to Judaism. The King and possibly some of the nobility likely did and installed Judaism as the official religion. But it was a political move to fend off the Xtian and Muslim neighbours.

Multiple credible genetic studies have been made on the Jewish population, all pointing to a common ancestry in the Middle East.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 8, 2010)

That's an interesting claim.  "Credible" is often in the eye of the beholder and "science" produced by these sources can be manipulated to show what is politically correct.  Have there ever been studies done by skeptics?  The problem with research done on religious topics is that they are so loaded with bias that they tend to self-confirm, especially when the studies are done by believers.  So, how have these credible sources avoided that problem?


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## elder999 (Jun 8, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> That's an interesting claim. "Credible" is often in the eye of the beholder and "science" produced by these sources can be manipulated to show what is politically correct. Have there ever been studies done by skeptics? The problem with research done on religious topics is that they are so loaded with bias that they tend to self-confirm, especially when the studies are done by believers. So, how have these credible sources avoided that problem?


 
It's not "research done on a religious topic," it's _genetics,_ generally performed by _geneticists_. There are papers publlished by the American Journal of Human Genetics that demonstrate as much, with various nuances for admixing that did take place There are over 25 pages of titles of abstracts on Jewish genetics on that page-part of what's motivated these studies is exclusively "Jewish" genetic disorders and diseases-further proof of common antecedents.

That those antecedents are, in *fact* in the Middle East neither confirms any claim on Israel or the historicity of the Bible, though others may use it as such, but the facts, _as we understand t_hem, are incontravertible in this instance.


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## Archangel M (Jun 8, 2010)

Come on.

The ONLY reason this is an issue is because people want to use it as justification for making "Jews don't belong here" claims against Israel.

A common theme in Jewish history and still being bandied about. As disgusting as it is.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 8, 2010)

elder999 said:


> It's not "research done on a religious topic," it's _genetics,_ generally performed by _geneticists_.



The genetics, in this case, just so happen to be linked to a religious (and loaded) topic.  How many good scientists have been guilty of confirmation bias when it comes to religion?  This isn't a question that is going to disprove anything, but I think it hints at a reason for skepticism.

Also, the fact that a study was performed by geneticists and that a lot of people agreed that certain groups of Jews are related may or may not relate to the Khazars.  Where is the connection?  

What about other converts?  It would be electrifying to discover that the entire Jewish diaspora was related and linked back to Israel, but when I read this study, it doesn't seem to support that.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 8, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Come on.
> 
> The ONLY reason this is an issue is because people want to use it as justification for making "Jews don't belong here" claims against Israel.
> 
> A common theme in Jewish history and still being bandied about. As disgusting as it is.



That's one half of the propaganda for sure.  What do you think "experts" on the other side would say?  What questions would such a skeptic (assuming they are skeptical) ask?

Imagine if a middle eastern university was able to recreate the results of these experiments?


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## elder999 (Jun 8, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Also, the fact that a study was performed by geneticists and that a lot of people agreed that certain groups of Jews are related may or may not relate to the Khazars. Where is the connection? .


 
Very well: Here are the conclusions of *THE AMERICAN CENTER OF KHAZAR STUDIES*-conclusions based in part on that very study, as well as the others on this page, though you'll note that Ostrer's is at the top-youll also not that the authors include Ostrere, _Li Hao_, Morrow and Burns-not exactly common "Jewish" names:



> Key findings:
> *The main ethnic element of* Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and *most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. *The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E.


 


maunakumu said:


> That's one half of the propaganda for sure. What do you think "experts" on the other side would say? What questions would such a skeptic (assuming they are skeptical) ask?
> 
> Imagine if a middle eastern university was able to recreate the results of these experiments?


 
They aren't skeptical. Most Arabs share these same identifying genes.

Again, from the previous webpage:



> Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.


 
At this point I'd suggest that perhaps your study of this matter has been confined to people who have an agenda, and that that agenda is influencing your thinking.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2010)

Some old saw about negative proof fallacy...

The geneticists studied seven known Jewish communities.  That doesn't sound like a comprehensive study.  Perhaps people who converted en-masse were not part of these groups?



> Ostrer says... 'We really see the events of the  Jewish diaspora in the genomes of Jewish people.' ... Ostrer says that  the researchers are extending their analysis to more Jewish populations.


This doesn't sound definitive to me.



> At the same time, there are traces of European (including Western Slavic)  and Khazar ancestry among European Jews.


How much is a trace?  If the studied groups were insular and they were surrounded by converts, ANY amount may be telling?

Again, it doesn't sound definitive.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2010)

elder999 said:


> At this point I'd suggest that perhaps your study of this matter has been confined to people who have an agenda, and that that agenda is influencing your thinking.



Perhaps, but then again, I'm talking to you guys and reading what you link and post and considering your positions, so does that count as broadening my research?  I probably should be working on the work that gets me paid...lol.


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 9, 2010)

What on earth does this matter? Whether the DNA confirms this or that, Jews live in Israel. No matter what the outcome is, it will remain theirs.

This is kinda like arguing that the US does not belong to the Americans because they stole it from the indians, so now everybody has to ship out. While you argue the former back and forth, it won't make any difference because the latter is not going to happen. Or for example my own beloved Belgium has changed hands so many times over the last centuries that is has been nicknamed 'battlefield of Europe'.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> What on earth does this matter? Whether the DNA confirms this or that, Jews live in Israel. No matter what the outcome is, it will remain theirs.
> 
> This is kinda like arguing that the US does not belong to the Americans because they stole it from the indians, so now everybody has to ship out. While you argue the former back and forth, it won't make any difference because the latter is not going to happen. Or for example my own beloved Belgium has changed hands so many times over the last centuries that is has been nicknamed 'battlefield of Europe'.



I agree completely.  Whether there is a link or not, it doesn't really change anything.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2010)

I don't remember genetics coming up in the UN when the Jews were pleading their case to be allowed to have a homeland. The case was made using solid facts, this was accepted by the majority of countries and Israel was reborn.

The genetics issue was brought up in two ways, one by Koestler who thought if he could prove that Jews weren't actually not Jews they would be free from the stigma of being 'Christ killers' and thus stop the persecutions. It didn't work, it was turned against the Jews instead to prove they didn't have the right to settle in Israel. Others use it to discredit Jews saying they 'fell' from the proper path and therefore deserve persecution anyway. A somewhat no win situation there.

There is no 'new' anti semitism' it's never gone away, as in the past it's always been there in varying degrees but it has always been with us. I'm not sure sane and rational people can understand the sheer hatred that is displayed toward Jews. There really are people who believe we contrrol the world, eat babies, hold satanic rites etc and will attack us physically.

Again there is two subjects here which should be separated, they are the Jews and Israel. What Israel does like any other country is up to it's government and it's people. What Jewish people around the world do is up to them, many Jews don't agree with the way the Israeli governemt handles things but Jews around the world should not be held responsible for what Israel does, indeed there are Jews who believe Israel shouldn't exist and refuse to acknowledge it. No one blames all Catholics because the Italian government does something they don't like. Start seeing the two 'communites' as two different entities.

We've been through the reasons why the Jews (secular and religious) should have a homeland in Israel. I'm not going to repeat them in detail but none of the arguments were religious, I've never said 'oh Jews should live their because of the Bible, because of King David' etc, the arguments have been purely practical, that Jews have always lived there, owned a great deal of land there so it's entirely feasible that other Jews could live on that land. The Balfour Declaration promised Jews a homeland in Israel, this promise being made by the then current 'owners' of the country. The United Nations holding a vote on the 'ownership' of Israel by majority gave the land to the Jews. None of this is a religious argument. 

One of the biggest anti Semites in history, Hitler actively recruited Arabs in the area, the Mufti of Jerusalem actually going to live in Germany after being declared wanted by the British for his anti Jewish activities. This anti semitic teaching was passed through the Muslim religious teaching system and you will still find Arab leaders quoting from the protcols of Zion when denouncing the Jews. Yasser Arafact was the Mufti's nephew and virulently anti semitic ( probably not realising our common genetics).

As I've said previously though, the situation between the Arabs and Jews is not religious, it's about wanting land and water. The Israelis have spent considerable efforts to bring water to the desert so much so that other Arab countries such as Saudi actually employ them in secret of course to build irrigation schemes for them. Water means more land can be made productive and of course more valuable therefore desirable.

It could be argued that the carving up of the Middle East after the First World is the seat of many of the problems in the Middle East including that of Iraq and Afghanistan, we sowed seed of destruction there when we took some gamiles and made them 'royal' then carved up the land ignoring age old boundaries and tribal lands. We are reaping now what we sowed then as with Germany after the First World War.

There's much muddled thinking going on where Israel and the Jews are concerned, much of it religious hokum from Christians believing that rebuilding the Temple will bring the end of the world nearer (and you'd want to do that why?), much is muddled thoughts about Jewish beliefs and lack of knowledge about Judaism. ( I joking said I didn't want my photo taken (vanity) and was told very seriously that my decision was respected because they understood I didn't want my soul stolen by the camera, this from 'born again happy clappy' people). 


Why is it so important to believe that Christians converted? Is it another reason to beat us with a stick, 'look the Jews take Christians souls and condemn them to hellfire'. If I tell you what is involved in converting how it will take at least 5 years will you understand it's unlikely that mass conversions were held? If I tell whats involved with being a religious Jew will you see how hard it is? If I show you the abuse, the terror endured by many Jews will you understand why many don't convert, in fact it's why the conversions are the other way? I really think that people imgaine conveting is a case of someone standing there saying 'right you lot you're all Jewish now, let's eat'. 

Israel doesn't exist because of genetics it exists through mandates and international law, it exists because the majority of the world's countries voted for it to exist. It exists because of people's belief in hard back breaking work carving out arable land from the desert. It exists to give to give hope to those trapped in horrendous circumstances, yes there are still some, Jews in Pakistan and the arab countries while Russia is becoming increasingly more violent towards Jews. It exists to say 'We will remember'. It exists to say 'Never Again'.


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## elder999 (Jun 9, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> I agree completely. Whether there is a link or not, it doesn't really change anything.


 
Then why argue with the science? If someone- a geneticist or biologist-had discovered a link between old world horned vipers and the Mojave Desert sidewinder, you wouldn't be questioning it....oh, wait a minute, there *is* such a link..:lol:....moreover, if someone found a genetic link between the Hopi and the people of Siberia or Tibet, I'd wager you'd have no problem with it.....oh, wait a minute, there *is *such a link, etc., etc., etc.......



Archangel M said:


> Come on.
> 
> The ONLY reason this is an issue is because people want to use it as justification for making "Jews don't belong here" claims against Israel.
> 
> A common theme in Jewish history and still being bandied about. As disgusting as it is.


 
Well, I dunno-I'm willing to give Scott the benefit of the doubt on this one. 

It's worth pointing out that I'm not pro-Zionism or pro-modern Israel, in fact, I'm probably closer to the opposite, and I'm quite prejudiced against modern colonialism-*all* colonialism, really (*Yes, Bruno, all of this long belongs to the Indians, to my way of thinking*...:lol: )..... but you can't really argue with the_ scientific facts_, whatever side of the question you're on......not unless you've an axe to grind.....

The genetic record indicates that the "conversions" you're speaking of were more of a case of Jewish men moving into an area and marrying local women-this is why the mitochondrial DNA is more nuanced and complex than Y chromosones, and why Jewish people in each region obviously share DNA with the surrounding populace-eventually, though, once a Jewish community was established, the men would not longer to women from outside the community, and would marry (breed) within their communities.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2010)

elder999 said:


> Then why argue with the science? If someone- a geneticist or biologist-had discovered a link between old world horned vipers and the Mojave Desert sidewinder, you wouldn't be questioning it....oh, wait a minute, there *is* such a link..:lol:....moreover, if someone found a genetic link between the Hopi and the people of Siberia or Tibet, I'd wager you'd have no problem with it.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> What on earth does this matter? Whether the DNA confirms this or that, Jews live in Israel. No matter what the outcome is, it will remain theirs.


 
It matters because the argument that Ashkenazi Jews are all of European descent, therefore have no ancestral ties or rights to that land is being made to de-legimitize Israel. 

Fact is, there has been a constant Jewish presence in Israel. Moreover, over the past 3,000 years, the only time that little piece of land was under it's own rule was when the Jews ruled it. From 70 C.E. to 1948, it has been under the control of:
The Romans (70-313)
The Byzantyne (313-636)
Ruled from Damascus and Baghdad (636-1099)
The Crusaders (1099-1291)
The Mamluks (1291-1516)
The Ottoman Empire (1516-1918)
The British (1918-1948)

The myth of the Khazars is the underlying current behind statements like Helen Thomas'.

It is part and parcel of the 'new' Anti-Semetism. Criticize everything Israel does, demonize Israel, and argue that they are a colonial power because, after all, they're just a bunch of Europeans. 

The new argument is that it's not Anti-Semetism, it's criticism of Israel. Israel is now just a euphemism for Jews. 

The actions of the Israeli government are not above criticism. It's Israel's national sport. Just go read Israeli newspapers. 

The line is crossed when Israel gets criticized for actions that other nations have a right to.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2010)

There is little to be honest that Jews haven't been blamed for, in the OP it stated that some websites were used to blame Jews for 9/11. I asked that people treat Israel and the Jews as two different subject but no one does, as Canuck says, criticising Israel now is the same as criticisng Jews. 

Israel exists legally, it exists under international law yet everything Israel does is deemed illegal by some. Countries even alliances can march into other countries without the condemnation Israel gets for just defending herself. Ah but wait, people don't want Israel defending herself do they?


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 9, 2010)

Thank god I'm an atheist...


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## Carol (Jun 9, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Thank god I'm an atheist...



Oh don't worry.  They'll be after you soon enough. 

Might have to go underground.  Should I start a speakeasy?  I could put up pictures of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and charge big bucks for watered down drinks.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Thank god I'm an atheist...


 
So are many Jews.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2010)

elder999 said:


> Well, I dunno-I'm willing to give Scott the benefit of the doubt on this one.



Thanks, John, btw.  The only reason why I would question at all is that during my lifetime the track record of governments/corporations misusing science to bolster their political claims has been dismally poor.  We could be talking about Israel, the US, or Russia for that matter, and I'd question a claim they made, especially if it seems like there is evidence to the contrary.

What surprised me about this topic, now that I've learned more, is how politically and emotionally connected some of our Jewish MT members are over it.  I understand why it grew to be that way.  That said, I just wanted to say, there is nothing personal about my skepticism.  If my skepticism is rooted in ignorance, I'll accept that and move on.

The claim was made that these studies were definitive and the authors of the most recent study has basically stated that it isn't.  We've got history books in Eastern Europe that talk about mass conversions linking back to the Khazars.  This is being dismissed as anti-semetic and the genetic study is being used as the basis for this.  I wonder if the political and emotional pressure is forcing people to make the science say more then it really is saying.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> It matters because the argument that Ashkenazi Jews are all of European descent, therefore have no ancestral ties or rights to that land is being made to de-legimitize Israel.



Couldn't Israel simply say that there are plenty of people who chose to convert and we accept all of these people into our family and so it doesn't matter?  Would Christians deny their converts access to the Holy Land because they were not part of the original gene pool of Christians?


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## Archangel M (Jun 9, 2010)

Couldn't all these "Khazar" groupies drop the whole "You were not from there originally so get out" ********?


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> What surprised me about this topic, now that I've learned more, is how politically and emotionally connected some of our Jewish MT members are over it. I understand why it grew to be that way. That said, I just wanted to say, there is nothing personal about my skepticism. If my skepticism is rooted in ignorance, I'll accept that and move on.


 
We are connected because there is so very few of us. ALL of us have connections to the Shoah. Some much closer than others. We are weary of people questioning our legitimacy. Also, ALL of us has connections to Israel. We have family, friends, aquaintances living there. A lot of us visit regularly. It may be difficult to understand, but Israel is the only place where we can feel really comfortable. Look, I'm Orthodox. Israel is the only place I'm comfortable earing my kippa. It's also the only place I can know I can eat in the overwhelming majority of restaurants, even street food. 




> The claim was made that these studies were definitive and the authors of the most recent study has basically stated that it isn't. We've got history books in Eastern Europe that talk about mass conversions linking back to the Khazars. This is being dismissed as anti-semetic and the genetic study is being used as the basis for this. I wonder if the political and emotional pressure is forcing people to make the science say more then it really is saying.


 
While not dismissing out of hand, I'd be carefull with history books from Eastern Europe. Especially when it deals with Jewish history. Much of the Eastern Block countries were/are anti-semetic. Remember that the _Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ originated in Russia.


The Khazar thing has been largely debunked. Here's what we know for sure about that period. In order to not be absorbed either politically or culturaly by their Xtian and Muslim neighbours, the Khazar king declared Judaism as the official religion of the kingdom. He likely converted. It is likely that a part of the nobility did as well. Where the myth gets hard to confirm is that there is no physical evidence of a large number of synagogues in the country, nor is there any mention of a large Jewish settlement in that region. We can be somewhat obsessed with genealogy, some of it comes from trying to find relatives after the Shoah. But there is no evidence of Jews tracing their lineage through the Khazars.

Science pretty much says what science says. It was not one study, it was several. Some were medically driven, trying to answer questions about the preponderence of certain genetic diseases amongst Jews. Some were more socioligical, studying small isolated groups not assimilating.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Couldn't Israel simply say that there are plenty of people who chose to convert and we accept all of these people into our family and so it doesn't matter? Would Christians deny their converts access to the Holy Land because they were not part of the original gene pool of Christians?


 
See, that is OUR attitude. Once you convert, you are a Jew. We are not allowed to remind converts that they are converts.


Unfortunately, that is not the atitude of those using the Khazars to point out that the Jews in Israel are really Europeans and therefore have no claim to the land in the Middle East.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 9, 2010)

The way I understood the term Khazar was that it was a regional culture shared by all three Abrahamic religions. The Yezidi have a thing or two to say about all of them. LOL


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

It may very well be now.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 9, 2010)

Can someone enlighten me?
Historically speaking, why are Jewish People a target of antisemitism? Is it the whole killers of christ nonsense? Or is there more to it? Was it because the RC church, the Protestant churches and the Muslims had the advantage of numbers and money, therefore power, and they looked for easy scapegoats?


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Can someone enlighten me?
> Historically speaking, why are Jewish People a target of antisemitism? Is it the whole killers of christ nonsense? Or is there more to it? Was it because the RC church, the Protestant churches and the Muslims had the advantage of numbers and money, therefore power, and they looked for easy scapegoats?


 

If I knew that, I'd be making millions on the speaking circuit.

There is no one reason. Cahill, in _The gift of the Jews_ puts forth that the world never forgave us for giving them morality. Or as the old joke goes

Moses comes down from Sinai and addresses the People.
"Good news, I bargained Him down to 10, bad new is adultery is still in"​Jews have always been apart from their host countries. We speak a different language, eat different food, etc. When something goes wrong, blame the stranger. Look at the Black Death. Jews were blamed for it in a lot of places. Thing is, as part of our religious ritual before eating, we wash our hands. Men and women immerse in a Mikvah regularly. In short, we bathed. But the population around us only saw strange people that seemed unaffected.

Because of our tradition of learning, we tend to be over represented in some circles. For a long time, the Church would only allow Jews to handle banking. We got good at it. And being dispersed all over, commerce was easy. All of a sudden, you have a people who keep to themselves, are educated, have some control over the treasury of the state, who are high up in the court and who travel and meet freely. 

The killing Jesus thing Jesus didn't help.

OTOH, I like to say

Look, we did not kill the dude. The Italians did. But even if we did, where would Xtianity be without the crucifiction?


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## CoryKS (Jun 9, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Can someone enlighten me?
> Historically speaking, why are Jewish People a target of antisemitism? Is it the whole killers of christ nonsense? Or is there more to it? Was it because the RC church, the Protestant churches and the Muslims had the advantage of numbers and money, therefore power, and they looked for easy scapegoats?


 
Take every criticism you've ever heard about capitalism and replace the word "capitalist" with "Jew".  The song remains the same, they've just changed some of the words.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> See, that is OUR attitude. Once you convert, you are a Jew. We are not allowed to remind converts that they are converts.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, that is not the atitude of those using the Khazars to point out that the Jews in Israel are really Europeans and therefore have no claim to the land in the Middle East.



So, it wouldn't be a political issue if the opposition to Israel didn't keep bringing it up?  For a Jew, a Jew is a Jew, no matter what?  

It seems to me that even if some Jews do not have direct biologic links to the majority, the bulk of the major communities do, so the argument being made by the opposition really doesn't have much to it no matter how one slices the issue we've been discussing.  What do you think?

Thanks for your dialogue, btw, I understand this issue a lot better now.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> So, it wouldn't be a political issue if the opposition to Israel didn't keep bringing it up? For a Jew, a Jew is a Jew, no matter what?
> 
> It seems to me that even if some Jews do not have direct biologic links to the majority, the bulk of the major communities do, so the argument being made by the opposition really doesn't have much to it no matter how one slices the issue we've been discussing. What do you think?
> 
> Thanks for your dialogue, btw, I understand this issue a lot better now.


 
That's the gist. Except that the opposition brings up the Khazars as a way to sever that tie.

We have our own internal battles about who is a Jew, mostly revolvng about validity of conversion, and in a huge way a political battle. But in effect, once you are a Jew, Israel welcomes you.


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2010)

First of all, it's not the Jews who are pushing the whole genetic thing, our claims were never based on science. The genetic thing came into play because there are people who wanted to prove that the Jews in Europe weren't from the Middle East and so had no claim on Israel. The Jewish claim wasn't made on genetics, and the Jews aren't hung up on the genetic proof. We believe our claims are based on legal precedences, mandates and international law as well as being morally right. 
However what the genetics prove is that the European Jews are from Middle East stock. Again this is probably more important to non Jews, if anyone was converted properly they are a Jew full stop. It's the Gentiles that seem to find they need proof that we are or are not from the Middle East. Mauna you are correct, it wouldn't be a political issue if the opposition didn't keep bringing it up, it's not our basis for our claim on Israel.

I'm totally passionate about this subject yes, my mother was the only survivor of her large family from the camps. As my father was an orphan I had no uncles, aunts or cousins growing up. to be the child of a survivor is difficult, to see so many people you have never met hate you is chilling, to read so much rubbish about yourself and your people is horrible, to be blamed for so much is truly depressing. We didn't kill Jesus, we don't kill babies and drain their blood, we didn't cause 9/11 and we don't want to take over the world. We want to live in peace and for us to live in peace we need Israel, not just to live there but for our security and our safety.

Many of you on other threads have said that being armed is an Americans right, that you need to be able to defend yourself against the bad guys, that having a weapon is protection for you and your famlies. Israel is our protection. It shows the world that Jews will defend themselves whereas before we were known to be 'victims' now because of Israel people know we are strong and will defend ourselves, Israel sends a message loud and clear to the world..NEVER AGAIN .. will anyone try to destroy our people without us fighting back, Israel is the home that Jews know will take them in when all else is lost,it's the one place that will always stand up for us, that's why so many Jews who have no intention on settling there support it financially, it is our home, our blood, our family, our security and our love.

Jerry Springer who lost a great many of his family in the camps including both his aged grandmothers, tells the story of his parents. His mother phoned him to ask him to persuade his father who was getting on in years and whose eyesight was failing, to give up his car and stop driving. Jerry duly did as his mother asked but his father said 'No, son, I can't I need the car because one day it may all start again and we will need to escape again'. My mother to her dying day kept a small bag of diamonds she'd had bought instead of putting the money in the bank, with her and my father's passports ( mine and my brothers too when we were young) together so if they came for her again we could escape....where to? Israel of course, our land, something that is truly ours. Many would say how can we be so insecure? the Jews in Germany had been there for centuries, many assilimilated, they'd fought for Germany in the First World War, they were Germans through and through but the day came when their country turned on them. That's why allowing the Jews to carry guns would have been no good, they wouldn't have seen that they need to be armed in their own country against their own people the Germans, who would never turn against them, this was their neighbours, their friends, people they grew up with but turn they did. They destroyed the Jewish families they'd lived next to all their lives. their neighbours turned them in to the Gestapo, moved into their houses, wore their clothes, ate off their plates.

Would this happen now? No, because of Israel, our shield and our defender. We won't let Israel be destroyed, its that simple. With the current wars going on, people says it's good to die for your country, for us it's good to have a country to die for. And I for one will die for Israel if I have to. You can argue I'm British, yes I am and I won't be disloyal to the UK but I have my passport and a small velvet bag tucked away where I can get hold of it easily.

_By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. _
_Upon the willows in the midst thereof we hanged up our harps. _
_For there they that led us captive asked of us words of song, and our tormentors asked of us mirth: 'Sing us one of the songs of Zion.' _
_How shall we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land? _
_If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. _
_Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy. _

_Psalm 137_

And we remember.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 10, 2010)

Thank you Tez. 

We don't need genetics. Tez is Sephardi, I'm Ashkenaz. She's British, I'm Cabadian. We live 4,000 miles apart. But we could be brother and sister. We share 2 common languages. We share a common past. I'm a child of survivors. My parents we the only ones of their families to survive. Like a lot of survivors, they turned away from religion. They settled along the mainstream Montreal society. I went to French public school. Wich in Montreal in the 60s meant Catholic school. I was the only Jew in the school. It means I had to lie. I had to find excuses as to why I was not a Mass on Sunday. 

We celebrated Shabbat by lighting candles. We had a Seder and ate no bread at Pesach. We fasted on Yom Kippur. Easter was a difficult time. We learned at school how my people was responsible for the death o ftheir god. I really had to lie. And it was painfull. My friends spoke about the family dinner. Dozens of people. Pesach is around that time. I too would have a special night. We ate different food, we listened to the story of the Exodus. Our entire family was there. The 5 of us.

Israel means my children and their children and thei chilfren's children will never have to endure this. When you visit Israel, the passport control officer greets you with _Shalom_. It's a versatile word. It means peace. It means hello. But for a Jew, that Shalom means 'Welcome home'.

I was too young to really comprehend the Six-Day War. But I followed intensly accounts of the Yom Kippur War. I looked at a map and felt pride after Entebbe. I cried reading about the airlift of the Ethiopian Jews. Here was a group of people we did not know. But they were art of us. And they were in trouble. Planes were stripped bare. Pilots flew around the clock. There are accounts of crew sleeping in the cockpit while the plane was being refuelled, waiting to take off again. They did not know those people. But they knew they were Jews. And they were in need of help. And Israel was there for them. 

I'm a Canadian. Intensely proud of that fact. I never served in our armed forces, but if I'd had to, I would have. I would have laid my life for Canada. But I know what Canada did during the war. I know that she too was silent. I know that if the monster was to rise up again, there is only one place in the world for me. Half of us live outside Israel. If we had to we know we could all show up at her door. It would be an incredible strain. On the people, on the infrastructure, on the economy. But the passport control officer would smile and say _Shalom, welcome home_


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## Archangel M (Jun 11, 2010)

[yt]oCtjjNFokTw[/yt]


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## xJOHNx (Jun 11, 2010)

Funny comedian, but not my style.

Funny how every form of criticism is directly placed under 'antisemitism'


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## CanuckMA (Jun 11, 2010)

It's not the criticisim. Criticizing the government is Israel's national sport. It's it's the stridency and the imbalance.

Example:
Questioning why Israel does not allow constructoin material in Gaza is legit criticism.
Making it front page news and using the rethoric that is common raises it up a notch
Failing to point out that Egypt does the same thing is where it crosses from criticizing the actions of Israel into anti-semetism. 

It's the high-pitch rethoric and criticism of actions that if you remove the word Israel, everybody would say that the actions are justified.


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## xJOHNx (Jun 11, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> It's the high-pitch rethoric and criticism of actions that if you remove the word Israel, everybody would say that the actions are justified.


No, and that's just playing the victim.


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> Funny comedian, but not my style.
> 
> Funny how every form of criticism is directly placed under 'antisemitism'


 


And that's a very big cliche! It goes alongside that thing where the bully does something to his victim and then says 'where's your sense of humour?' and 'of course I'm not prejudiced some of my best friends are black'.

Tired old argument that, America takes a lot of flak for various things, a great deal of the worlds problems are lain at Americas feet, do you think thats because America deserves it or because there are people who hate America and will do anything and everything they can to destroy it such as 9/11? How do you feel about that criticisim, that it's fair, thats it's unbiased or is directed at America by people who are rabid in their hatred of all things American? Is it fair to criticise the actions of your government and your President or is it fairer to blame every single American? How do you feel about being blamed for the murder of the Muslims in the Balkans because Americans want all Muslims to die? There is virulent anti American feeling out in the world, you know it's unjustified, it's unfair and simply not the truth , it's fueled by hatred....the same is true of the criticism of the Jews. 
Criticise away as long as it's a fair point and criticism is levelled across the board. don't criticise us either for things your country has also done, it's doesn't make it necessarily right but the pot can't call the kettle black. Remember the American invasion of Grenada?


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> No, and that's just playing the victim.


 
'sigh'


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## Empty Hands (Jun 11, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> Failing to point out that Egypt does the same thing is where it crosses from criticizing the actions of Israel into anti-semetism.



No it doesn't.  If it did, every time I criticized human rights abuses in the US without noting the long litany of countries which are worse I would be "anti-American".  Every time I criticized aspects of Christianity which are patriarchal without noting that other religions are worse I would be "anti-Christian".  The topic is the topic, not everything else in the world must be brought into it.

In the case of Israel vs. Egypt, Israel gets the criticism because most people expect better.  Israel claims to be a democratic country which respects human rights.  Egypt is a semi-despotic state.  That's the same reason that the US was harshly criticized for using torture to prosecute our war, when it is far worse and far more extensive in other countries.  Criticizing torture when the US does it without mentioning it is worse in Syria or Somalia does not an anti-American make.


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## CoryKS (Jun 11, 2010)

So the obvious solution is for Israel to declare herself a military dictatorship.  Then she too can take advantage of the soft bigotry of low expectations.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 11, 2010)

Criticizing Israel for her actions agains Gaza while failing to mention that Egypt, who also shares a border with Gaza does the same or worse is criticizing Israel for the sake of criticizing Israel, and that borders on anti-semitism.

If you would only critcize the US human rights record, and never any other country, then yes, that's makes you anti-American. 

As I've said, it's not the criticism that bothers us. It's being singly criticized for actions that no other nation would get criticized for. 

It's being accused of commiting genocide when the Palestinian population is growing.

BTW, not mentioned very often is the fact that the West Bank currently has the fastest growing economy in the region. That the PA security forces have been so successful at stopping terrorist attacks on Israel that Israel relies on their intelligence reports. Contrast that with the situation in GAza. The only difference is that, while not perfect, the government in the WB is not lobbing rockets at Israel on a daily basis.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 11, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> So the obvious solution is for Israel to declare herself a military dictatorship. Then she too can take advantage of the soft bigotry of low expectations.


 

:rofl:


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> No it doesn't. If it did, every time I criticized human rights abuses in the US without noting the long litany of countries which are worse I would be "anti-American". Every time I criticized aspects of Christianity which are patriarchal without noting that other religions are worse I would be "anti-Christian". The topic is the topic, not everything else in the world must be brought into it.
> 
> In the case of Israel vs. Egypt, Israel gets the criticism because most people expect better. Israel claims to be a democratic country which respects human rights. Egypt is a semi-despotic state. That's the same reason that the US was harshly criticized for using torture to prosecute our war, when it is far worse and far more extensive in other countries. *Criticizing torture when the US does it without mentioning it is worse in Syria or Somalia does not an anti-American make*.


 
No but criticising America for torture while extolling the virtues of Syria or Somalia will make yo an anti America. That what's happening with Israel, it gets the criticisim while it's 'ah poor Palestinians'. . . . now t_hat's_ playihg the victim!


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## xJOHNx (Jun 11, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> And that's a very big cliche! It goes alongside that thing where the bully does something to his victim and then says 'where's your sense of humour?' and 'of course I'm not prejudiced some of my best friends are black'.
> 
> Tired old argument that, America takes a lot of flak for various things, a great deal of the worlds problems are lain at Americas feet, do you think thats because America deserves it or because there are people who hate America and will do anything and everything they can to destroy it such as 9/11? How do you feel about that criticisim, that it's fair, thats it's unbiased or is directed at America by people who are rabid in their hatred of all things American? Is it fair to criticise the actions of your government and your President or is it fairer to blame every single American? How do you feel about being blamed for the murder of the Muslims in the Balkans because Americans want all Muslims to die? There is virulent anti American feeling out in the world, you know it's unjustified, it's unfair and simply not the truth , it's fueled by hatred....the same is true of the criticism of the Jews.
> Criticise away as long as it's a fair point and criticism is levelled across the board. don't criticise us either for things your country has also done, it's doesn't make it necessarily right but the pot can't call the kettle black. Remember the American invasion of Grenada?


I'm actually a lot closer than you think. I'm from Belgium 
As far as I know, my country did not invade Grenada.

Belgium DID rob Congo from it's riches, enslaved alot of black people and was just plain nasty against the population. 
No point in hiding that, or not condeming it. 

I'll read the rest tomorrow, I'm off for the moment. Good night!


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> I'm actually a lot closer than you think. I'm from Belgium
> As far as I know, my country did not invade Grenada.
> 
> Belgium DID rob Congo from it's riches, enslaved alot of black people and was just plain nasty against the population.
> ...


 
Been to Belgium many times.

I'm well aware of what went on in the Belgian Congo and no, like many things that Britain has done there is no point in denying it but and heres a big but, was it the Christians in Belguim specifically that are to be blamed or is it the Belgian authorities? 

When criticism is addressed to the Israeli government that is the correct form, to blame the Jews en masse isn't. All Israelis aren't Jews. the Knesset consists of member of parties as diverse as Communist (an Arab party) to Ultra Orthodox (anti Zionist), Orthodox (pro Zionist), there's far right, centre, far left, pensioners party,every shade of political thought going and not all members of the Knesset are Jews, there's also Arabs and Druze. There's three Arab political parties who hold seats in the Knesset. Plus there is a sizable number of Christian citizens in Israel as there is in Gaza, something people might like to take a look at is the persecution of Arab Christians by Hamas and the Muslimification of Bethlehem where Christians are being ousted from their homes.

By all means complain about and criticise the Israeli government and it's leaders but don't scream at all Jews.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 11, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> All Israelis aren't Jews.



Yet "strident" or biased criticism of Israel has been described in this very thread as "anti-Semitism".  It seems like Israel is synonymous with Jews in the minds of many defenders of Israel.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 11, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Yet "strident" or biased criticism of Israel has been described in this very thread as "anti-Semitism". It seems like Israel is synonymous with Jews in the minds of many defenders of Israel.


 
Actually, it's the reverse. Israel as become the new word for Jews. That is what many call the 'new anti-semitism' referred to in the thread title. The standard defense is that the criticizer is not an anti-semite, he's against Israel, or against Zionism, but is not criticizing those in particular. 

You'll disagree, that's fine. You're not the one living our reality. 

Here's a quick example of our reality. We have security at the door of our synagogue. I don't recall seeing that in churches.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 11, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> The standard defense is that the criticizer is not an anti-semite, he's against Israel, or against Zionism, but is not criticizing those in particular.
> 
> You'll disagree, that's fine. You're not the one living our reality.



I don't disagree that many criticisms of Israel may be motivated by anti-Semitism more generally.  What is becoming apparent in these conversations though is the arbitrary nature of when the criticism of Israel stops being directed at the country only, and starts being anti-Semitism.

The criticism must not be "strident."  One must always take care to include the laundry list of worse offenders when one criticizes Israel (a tu quoque logical fallacy, BTW).  The criticism must always be "balanced."

I certainly never take such care criticizing any other country, including my own.  If a country is doing something wrong, then it is wrong, no matter what anyone else is doing.  Bringing up the behavior of others is a red herring, just as the behavior of Islamic terrorists is used to justify the mistreatment and torture of prisoners by the USA.  My parents certainly never accepted such excuses when I was growing up, if I did wrong, then it was wrong, no matter what my sister or Timmy from school was doing.

The way this argument is constructed appears to accomplish two things: 1) deflect legitimate criticism and 2) deter legitimate criticism.  I don't like the arbitrary and self-serving nature of it.

None of this is to say that anti-Semitism doesn't exist, nor that Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself.  But both can be dealt with in good faith using the same standards that every other country must abide by.  Again and again, I come to the example of the USA for our recent behavior.  We deserved that criticism.  It didn't matter that 9/11 happened, nor that Islamic terrorists or Syria or wherever are worse.  We should have handled it better.  Our critics were not "anti-American" for making the criticisms.


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2010)

I totally fail to see where we are trying to prevent legitimate criticisim of israel when we've told you how much we critiicise it's and we aren't defending any particular action it's made just asking that people look at all sides before blaming the Jews for everything, as has been said we've been blamed for 9/11 among a great amonount of other things, this thread isn't about Israel in particular but anti semitism generally.


As for criticising America, you have tried that as a non American have you? Look at the thread titled 'something for everyone' an ex pop singer criticises America and us Brits get a strident post reminding us who won the war for us, yeah thanks.

As for anti semitic attacks in the UK do have a read of this.
http://www.thecst.org.uk/docs/CST-incidents-report-09-for-web.pdf


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## Tez3 (Jun 12, 2010)

For those that didn't read the CST report. From pages 26 and 27.


_"The distinction between antisemitic and anti-Israel activity is often_
_subtle and is subject to much heated debate and disagreement._
_Clearly, it is incorrect to define all anti-Israel activity as antisemitic_
_in content or motivation, yet it is also clear that much contemporary_
_antisemitism is expressed within the framework of, or is motivated_
_by, extreme feelings over the Israel/Palestine issue. Drawing out_
_these distinctions, and deciding on where the dividing lines lie,_
_is one of the most difficult areas of CSTs work in recording_​_and analysing hate crime."_
 
_"The political discourse used in an incident may also be the reason_
_why it is accepted or rejected as antisemitic. The exact nature_
_and content of each incident is assessed individually, but some_
_basic guidelines can be applied. For example, incidents that equate_
_Israel with Nazi Germany would normally be recorded as antisemitic,_
_whereas those that compare Israel to, for instance, apartheid_
_South Africa normally would not be. While the charge that Israel_
_practises apartheid upsets many Jews, it does not contain the same_
_visceral capacity to offend Jews on the basis of their Jewishness_
_as does the comparison with Nazism, which carries particular_
_meaning for Jews because of the Holocaust. There were 68 antisemitic_
_incidents recorded by CST in 2009 that involved the comparison_
_of Israel or Zionism with Nazi Germany."_

We do understand the difference between criticism of Israel ( though that should not be violent or threatening) and criticism of people just because they are Jewish_._ This isn't playing the victim nor do we believe we are above reproach in anything. As I said we ask that the criticism be fair and not violent, threatening or malicious.​


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