# What makes people believe absurd conspiracy theories?



## Chrisinmd (Jan 23, 2021)

What makes people believe absurd conspiracy theories?  Are they stupid or just naïve?  Mentally ill?  Or are people just easily manipulated and controlled by others?

 For example QAnon is a disproven and discredited far-right conspiracy theory alleging that a cabal of Satan-worshipping cannibalistic pedophiles is running a global child sex-trafficking ring and plotting against (former) U.S. president Donald Trump, who is fighting the cabal. 

So what would make someone believe this crazy ****?  Or things like Alien Abductions or that the world is actually flat not round.


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## drop bear (Jan 24, 2021)

Mostly it is conformation bias.





Same reason people do Aikido.


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## drop bear (Jan 24, 2021)

I mean bear in mind enough people are wanting to learn to use healing crystals to sustain multiple $300 courses.

Certificate in Crystal Healing

And there is no difference between someone who is trained in healing crystal use and someone who isn't. 

Because they don't work. 

There is literally no way you can use a healing  crystal better than anyone else.


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## Buka (Jan 24, 2021)

It's a little bit more complex than that.

Belief can be a very strong thing, life is complicated.

As for conspiracy theories themselves, the term "conspiracy theory" is taught in certain classes of United States Federal Law Enforcement. I've taken some of those classes.

Certain former Presidents were good at this. I'm sure some of their advisors took some of the same classes that I did.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 24, 2021)

Who told you I believe in conspiracy theories? Who was it, who TOLD you?? Was it them??? Ohhhhh I bet it was them.... all part their consumerist plots and plan for power... yeeeeeeeeehhhhh


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## _Simon_ (Jan 24, 2021)

I think part of it is having secret knowledge that 'no one else knows', has a falsified effect of boosting your sense of importance or 'rightness'.

That and deep, deep insecurity, anti-authoritarian and trust issues.

But hey, that's not to say that all conspiracies are wrong because a few come through as true I'm sure! But I'm talking about the ones that are clearly delusional.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

Chrisinmd said:


> What makes people believe absurd conspiracy theories?  Are they stupid or just naïve?  Mentally ill?  Or are people just easily manipulated and controlled by others?
> 
> For example QAnon is a disproven and discredited far-right conspiracy theory alleging that a cabal of Satan-worshipping cannibalistic pedophiles is running a global child sex-trafficking ring and plotting against (former) U.S. president Donald Trump, who is fighting the cabal.
> 
> So what would make someone believe this crazy ****?  Or things like Alien Abductions or that the world is actually flat not round.


im not at all sure that a cabal of predatory peodophile in posistion of great influance is all that inaccurate to be honest .

 J E anyone ?


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

Chrisinmd said:


> What makes people believe absurd conspiracy theories?  Are they stupid or just naïve?  Mentally ill?  Or are people just easily manipulated and controlled by others?
> 
> For example QAnon is a disproven and discredited far-right conspiracy theory alleging that a cabal of Satan-worshipping cannibalistic pedophiles is running a global child sex-trafficking ring and plotting against (former) U.S. president Donald Trump, who is fighting the cabal.
> 
> So what would make someone believe this crazy ****?  Or things like Alien Abductions or that the world is actually flat not round.


a lot depends whoch conspiracy theory to be honest, a fair number of them have at least a kernal of truth in them and others are just krazy, but they all get lumped together that as anything that doesnt fit the approved view to automatically insane

i ran a test on one very orthodox site of conspiracies and asked them to pick which were true and which id made up

and nobody picked the fact the uk govenment had been delibratly releasing bio matter on to the uk population in the 1970s as an experiment, as being true, coz everyone knows our govenment wouldnt do that, but they did. just as they delibratly lined up service personnel in the blast zone of nuclear wrapons to see how many died of cancer.

once you accept that democtatical elected govenments ate actualy capable of thibgs like that, it then should make you wonder what else they did and got away with

if for instance they got their hands on alien technology or allien abductuons were happening, would they lie about it

almost definetly yes, so the fact they say neither of these things are true, doesnt carry much weight


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I mean bear in mind enough people are wanting to learn to use healing crystals to sustain multiple $300 courses.
> 
> Certificate in Crystal Healing
> 
> ...


well thats not ultimately true, there is science to support healing crystals and before you jump on me, its the science of placibo, which doesnt have a high succese rate with inoperable cancer, but does with slightly less serious conditions, so much so that its often  hard to split the effectiveness of a course of treatment from someone who belives they are on a course of treatment, just the fact they belive they are being cared for, can show a major up turn in health ,

so yes healing crystal can work if you belive they will, just as sugar pill can help if you belive they will


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

Chrisinmd said:


> What makes people believe absurd conspiracy theories?  Are they stupid or just naïve?  Mentally ill?  Or are people just easily manipulated and controlled by others?
> 
> For example QAnon is a disproven and discredited far-right conspiracy theory alleging that a cabal of Satan-worshipping cannibalistic pedophiles is running a global child sex-trafficking ring and plotting against (former) U.S. president Donald Trump, who is fighting the cabal.
> 
> So what would make someone believe this crazy ****?  Or things like Alien Abductions or that the world is actually flat not round.


It's because they only expose their minds to one type of mindset for a long period of time.  They have basically willingly "brain washed" themselves.

Conspiracies and Cult followings often fulfill a subconscious need.  Usually the need to feel important, or to know something that someone else doesn't know.  Or to be special.  You can often tell which needs the leader or the creator is trying to satisfy, because they repeat it.  For example.  Things that have been said over the years.

1. I love the poor uneducated - There is a group of people who believe they are just as smart as people who go to college yet they choose not to go to college but feel the need to always prove to someone they are smarter.
2.  I know more than.... - This addresses #1. and the empty void of wanting to know something that no one else knows. This also distances willingness to seek other sources of knowledge or to even verify information. We often see this in religions where some will say all your answers are here and they will hold up a book.
3.  I can do a crime and I would still have followers - This addresses the mindset of those who are willing to look in the other direction when a crime is done.
4. I'm the chosen one - This is a major red flag, because it's the same thing all cult leaders say.  In reality if a person has to declare that they are the chosen one then they are probably not the chosen one.  "The chosen one" would be something that one could not declare for themselves.
5. Only I can fix the problem -  This is another isolation technique to get people to void everyone else but the leader.
6. Believe Me - Again an isolation technique.  Don't believe anyone else only believe them.
7. No one is better than me - Another isolation technique

There are more examples - All of these have been used by other cult leaders and mass manipulators through out history.  The key is to soak the minds so they do not think on their own. By soaking I mean you submerge it into one perspective and not introduce it to another.

Examples of things that may seem familiar
    Lying and Liars
        The great masses of the people . . . will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one.
        Adolf Hitler: Mein Kampf  source: Adolf Hitler: Quotes

The manipulation of humans is an interesting subject because you see the same pattern over and over again.  But the key is to always soak those brains in one mindset.

If you want your shirt to only be yellow, then you must only soak it in Yellow Dye.  Allowing another dye to enter will dilute or take over the color of what you want your shirt to be.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> I think part of it is having secret knowledge that 'no one else knows', has a falsified effect of boosting your sense of importance or 'rightness'.
> 
> That and deep, deep insecurity, anti-authoritarian and trust issues.
> 
> But hey, that's not to say that all conspiracies are wrong because a few come through as true I'm sure! But I'm talking about the ones that are clearly delusional.


I feel the same way.  One of the biggest things is to prey on insecurities and fill that subconscious need.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> just as they delibratly lined up service personnel in the blast zone of nuclear wrapons to see how many died of cancer.


This one isn't true. It's true that they were put in the blast zone. But they weren't studying how many people would die from cancer.  There are a number of things that could be studied by doing this and not just cancer.  Much of what they did was out of ignorance of radiation.  It's no difference than timex using radioactive material for their watches.

Did the military know that the bomb was was dangerous - of course.   Did the military know the extent of the danger?  Definitely not.  Compare the way radioactive anything is handled today with how it was handled back then.  The only difference is that there was a lot of ignorance back then in comparison to it now. Do you think they would have tested those things above ground if they really understood the dangers of it?  You could tell they were clueless by how you see scientist handle the materials back then. They were like kids playing with a loaded gun.

They knew the bomb was dangerous, but they didn't know to what extent.  I'm not giving them a pass.  Ignorance has killed more people and destroyed more things in this world than anger and hate.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's because they only expose their minds to one type of mindset for a long period of time.  They have basically willingly "brain washed" themselves.
> 
> Conspiracies and Cult followings often fulfill a subconscious need.  Usually the need to feel important, or to know something that someone else doesn't know.  Or to be special.  You can often tell which needs the leader or the creator is trying to satisfy, because they repeat it.  For example.  Things that have been said over the years.
> 
> ...


all of that can be appkied equalky to the govenment, the advertising industry,the media, the tptb,

its extremly difficult to prove anything to be real or imaginary,  with out referance to an aurthority figure, who said it was and you belived

i bet someone told you the earth was a sphere and you belives them, coz they were your 3 grade teacher and knew everything, very few people have ever attempted tofind out for themselvess if this was so, the ancient greeks managed it not like its that hard to do

which of course it isnt, which makes most as incorrect as flat earthers and just as gullible,  in fact more gullible, as at least fe have tried to apply logic to it rather than simply accepting it as true


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I mean bear in mind enough people are wanting to learn to use healing crystals to sustain multiple $300 courses.
> 
> Certificate in Crystal Healing
> 
> ...


My wife used to believe in that and was all into the crystal stuff. Then years later she got breast cancer so there's that.   The reoccurring theme for her is the desire to be special.  It's not special as someone cares for you special. It's special as in being more than just an average human.  So far it seem she no longer seeks to fill that need.

I'm not sure what filled it or what changed it for her.  It could be the fact that she finally got to see how those same people who believed in the crystal and spirituality stuff weren't as pure has they claimed to be.  The last 4 years in the US has exposed a lot of what's wrong in society and she got to see that play out in the groups she used to be a part of.   She tells now tells me often how people in those spirituality groups weren't as "angelic" as they claimed and pretended to be.  When it all came down to making the important decision, they sold out.  I had been telling her that for the longest.  I guess she just needs to see it for herself.  It took her many years to get out of that mindset.  She used to soak her mind in that stuff daily.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This one isn't true. It's true that they were put in the blast zone. But they weren't studying how many people would die from cancer.  There are a number of things that could be studied by doing this and not just cancer.  Much of what they did was out of ignorance of radiation.  It's no difference than timex using radioactive material for their watches.
> 
> Did the military know that the bomb was was dangerous - of course.   Did the military know the extent of the danger?  Definitely not.  Compare the way radioactive anything is handled today with how it was handled back then.  The only difference is that there was a lot of ignorance back then in comparison to it now. Do you think they would have tested those things above ground if they really understood the dangers of it?  You could tell they were clueless by how you see scientist handle the materials back then. They were like kids playing with a loaded gun.
> 
> They knew the bomb was dangerous, but they didn't know to what extent.  I'm not giving them a pass.  Ignorance has killed more people and destroyed more things in this world than anger and hate.


no mate, they knew very well what radiation was and what it did to living organisms, and they delibratly out people in the danger zone, and i mean DELIBRATELY,  there was no other reason for most if them to be there, british troops were told to stand up just make sure they got the full blast

talk about gullable, do you really think the cleverest people in the world who built the bomb didnt know about radiation sickness,  they had already seen it in japan,  didthey think they had bad sunburn


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> all of that can be appkied equalky to the govenment, the advertising industry,the media, the tptb,


definitely.  It's not limited to just cult leaders and dictators.  It's also not a bad or good thing by default.  If you want to be an incredible martial artist then soak your brain into everything martial arts and train as if that was the only thing in life.  Your social life and work life may suffer but you'll be extremely good at. 

Soak your brain into everything that's science.  for example. A marine biologist.  You'll end up being one of the best in your field.  Your conversation range may suck but you'll be the best at being a marine biologist.  Steven Hawkins had a similar experience by force.  Restricted to a chair he soaked his brain into the science of his choice.



jobo said:


> its extremly difficult to prove anything to be real or imaginary, with out referance to an aurthority figure, who said it was and you belived


There's a lot that one can prove to be real.  Just as there is a lot that cannot be proven at this time.  Sometimes proof is beyond our intelligence.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> definitely.  It's not limited to just cult leaders and dictators.  It's also not a bad or good thing by default.  If you want to be an incredible martial artist then soak your brain into everything martial arts and train as if that was the only thing in life.  Your social life and work life may suffer but you'll be extremely good at.
> 
> Soak your brain into everything that's science.  for example. A marine biologist.  You'll end up being one of the best in your field.  Your conversation range may suck but you'll be the best at being a marine biologist.  Steven Hawkins had a similar experience by force.  Restricted to a chair he soaked his brain into the science of his choice.
> 
> There's a lot that one can prove to be real.  Just as there is a lot that cannot be proven at this time.  Sometimes proof is beyond our intelligence.


im talking about you proving the world is a sphere , you only belive that to be true coz someone told you it was, now there are lot of people who can prove that, but your not one of them


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> i bet someone told you the earth was a sphere and you belives them, coz they were your 3 grade teacher and knew everything, very few people have ever attempted tofind out for themselves if this was so,


Nope in third grade I was at a private school and the class that I was in was really heavy on science like advanced level.  Probably a 6th or 5th grade level of science.  It didn't matter if the students were ready for that level, we all got it and had to study it.  They didn't just tell the students, they explained, it and showed it with models. They did the same thing with topics about plants. Things that I learned in the 3rd grade, I didn't see again until the 7th grade.  My 4th, 5th, and 6th grade years were almost completely science free.  I went to my first public school in the 4th grade.  I hated it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> do you really think the cleverest people in the world who built the bomb didnt know about radiation sickness,


Where you and I differ is that you think they were clever.  While I don't think they were clever at all.  It's like people being too smart for there own good without realizing the dangers of what they do.

When I see scientist not wearing radioactive suites while looking at samples that came from those test sites, then I'm thinking they aren't as clever as you think they are.

Compare 2 things.  The discovery of the Atom bomb and the creation of radiation protection.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Where you and I differ is that you think they were clever.  While I don't think they were clever at all.  It's like people being too smart for there own good without realizing the dangers of what they do.
> 
> When I see scientist not wearing radioactive suites while looking at samples that came from those test sites, then I'm thinking they aren't as clever as you think they are.
> 
> Compare 2 things.  The discovery of the Atom bomb and the creation of radiation protection.


they were the greatest scientific minds in the whole world, some the greatest scientific minds that have ever been or likely to be

but you dont think they were clever enough to know what radition was, ok, post me a picture of openhiemer stood in the blast zone


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> im talking about you proving the world is a sphere , you only belive that to be true coz someone told you it was, now there are lot of people who can prove that, but your not one of them


Live camera feed from space.  You have 2 choices.  You can believe it or don't.  Accept it as proof or don't


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> they were the greatest scientific minds in the whole world, some the greatest scientific minds that have ever been or likely to be


According to who?  You?  There are scientist who have already surpassed them in their own field of study.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Live camera feed from space.  You have 2 choices.  You can believe it or don't.  Accept it as proof or don't


well exactly, yoyr defering to an aurthority figure,  in this case nasa, that could be cgi, quite easily, you have noway of knowing if its real or not just that you trust nasa not to lie to you, so belif with out proof,  again


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> but you dont think they were clever enough to know what radition was, ok


Nope.  I don't.  Just the same way scientist have discovered things in our lifetime only to discover many years later that it's harmful.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> According to who?  You?  There are scientist who have already surpassed them in their own field of study.


no, who has surpassed neils bohr, he invented quantum mechanics, in fact he "invented "the atomic bomb, before there was even a war,

he is undoubtedly  one of the finest minds there have ever been or likely to be

the germans tried to recruit him, it may all have turned out cery differently if they had done so

now be honest,  you never heard of him have you ?, these days he nostly only famous have having had a major fall out with einstein


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> no, who has surpassed neils bohr, he invented quantum mechanics, in fact he "invented "the atomic bomb, before there was even a war,
> 
> he is undoubtedly  one of the finest minds there have ever been or likely to be
> 
> ...


Steven Weinberg
Stephen Hawking
Edward Witten
Alan Guth
Peter Higgs


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Steven Weinberg
> Stephen Hawking
> Edward Witten
> Alan Guth
> Peter Higgs


all great people, in what way have they surpassed neils bohr?, just writing a list of contempary scientists  doesnt actually support the point , ut just show youve google scientist

he is lije einstein and a good few others from the 1910/ 20s, they conpkwly redesignes our understanding of physics, others have built on their work, but could never be said to have surpassed it, unless they to do something original that completly changes our understanding of physics of those higgs is the closest


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> all great people, in what way have they surpassed neils bohr?


You got the names. look it up for yourself why take my words? Determine that on your own.



jobo said:


> just writing a list of contempary scientists doesnt actually support the point , ut just show youve google scientist


 And yet you still got the names.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You got the names. look it up for yourself why take my words? Determine that on your own.
> 
> And yet you still got the names.


i know their work, ive put a great deal of time in to understanding hawkin radiation and the higgs boson

you said they had supassed bohr, its up to you to say why you think that is so, not for me to guess your mind


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> you said they had supassed bohr, its up to you to say why you think that is so, not for me to guess your mind


 It's not up to me. you are the one hung up on this issue. prove it or disprove it to yourself.  Either way works for me


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not up to me. you are the one hung up on this issue. prove it or disprove it to yourself.  Either way works for me


okok il put it down as you have no idea, that works for me


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> okok il put it down as you have no idea, that works for me


It's not about me.  It's about you.


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## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's because they only expose their minds to one type of mindset for a long period of time.  They have basically willingly "brain washed" themselves.
> 
> Conspiracies and Cult followings often fulfill a subconscious need.  Usually the need to feel important, or to know something that someone else doesn't know.  Or to be special.  You can often tell which needs the leader or the creator is trying to satisfy, because they repeat it.  For example.  Things that have been said over the years.
> 
> ...



I read through the entire thread but chose to respond to this post since it has the most content and seems most relevant. I will say I agree with you... in part. I do fully agree that the manipulation of humans is an intriguing topic but I also strongly feel the word manipulation is misunderstood and unsavory to many people. 
Even the definitions can seem opposing:
ma·nip·u·la·tion
/məˌnipyəˈlāSHən/
_noun_

1.
the action of manipulating something in a skillful manner.
"the format allows fast picture manipulation"


2.
the action of manipulating someone in a clever or unscrupulous way.
"there was no deliberate manipulation of visitors' emotions"
In 1.1 the word 'skillful' resonates with me loudly. Sadly so does 'unscrupulous' in 2.2.  

To be certain, you are spouting some higher minded thinking. But you are giving your opinion based on the same conditions you are bashing against; in short, your exposure and experiences. 
That is so common to the point of being blasé.   
Clearly, you are looking at all things from the same perspective. So is that not 'the pot calling the kettle black'? 

Until you, me, or anyone else has proven through their own tangible and reinforced evidence that what they say is worth listening to, it means very little. This is 100% true, 100% of the time. You are basing your perspective on how 'loud' or prevalent these truth's have been presented. Sensationalism and manipulation at it's finest. 

Bear in mind, almost Everything as we know it is in a state of flux. What is true today will quite possibly not be true tomorrow. Use your radiation exposure in the early days as proof positive. 

I truly believe the way information is presented, received, and accessed will change radically in the next 10-20 years; just like it has in the previous equal length of time. 

As an example; your argument that All knowledge should be common knowledge to everyone. How is that at all possible when everything is changing in real time?
Another example of this is physics (which seems to be what you and @jobo have centered on). Many, many 'concrete' laws in physics have been either disproven or modified. But, my oh my, how many things have been discovered and/or invented based on the physical laws of the current time. Where would we be without them? 

So I will say the same phrase to you that I recently said to @skribs; 'paralysis by analysis' is So true and applicable to your list.


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## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

i came accross a site called" stolen history" which i though would be intresting, as with out doubt popular history has beem exstensivly edited rewriten, to remove some of the less savoury bits,

however, it reaches a whole new level of crazy,  im not sure if im allowed to link?

the people are dedicated beyond beliefs , they have invested years in there reseach and can pull really obscure historical documents.

however the net result of this research, is there was a global flood in the early 1800s, this may have been the biblical flood or it may have been a mud flood, there is little consensus,  which lead the the death of billions and a complete rewrite of history , there are variations, they also have an obsession with star forts and giants, occasionaly dinosaurs and a particular intrest in siberian forests  or the lack there of.

its both impresive in the amount of research they do and extremly funny and occasionally you learn something, i read the peace treaty from the war of 1812 last night, how many have,done that i wonder

now if i could only work out what happened to those,Siberian forests


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I do fully agree that the manipulation of humans is an intriguing topic but I also strongly feel the word manipulation is misunderstood and unsavory to many people


You would be correct on all points here.  I myself don't like the term manipulation and when I talk about it, I have to first remind myself not think of it as something as good or bad.  There's a lot stuff about manipulation that is hard to stomach.  It's like medicine.  You know the validity of it, but it's still going to taste like crap.lol.



dvcochran said:


> But you are giving your opinion based on the same conditions you are bashing against; in short, your exposure and experiences.


To speak from personal experience is common.  We all experience this world directly or indirectly.  The amount of exposure we have and from which side of that exposure will play a large role in how we understand things.



dvcochran said:


> Clearly, you are looking at all things from the same perspective. So is that not 'the pot calling the kettle black'?


We all have perspective even though they may seem similar in some areas it doesn't make it the same.  5555555555 is not the same as 5555555554.  No matter how similar it may be in some areas it is still not the same in another.  

In terms of calling the kettle black that will depend on what part.  If you are talking about Manipulation, then I'm not calling the kettle black.  No one can live on this planet without manipulating someone in one direction or the other.  If you have kids, then you know you do it often, but probably don't refer to it as manipulation because it comes with that negative imagery.

If you are talking about me soaking my brain in only one perspective.  I don't do that.  You may have heard me say many times that I always try to keep balance.  So if I find myself not willing to listen to other perspective or at the very minimum hear other perspectives then I know that at that point I'm not in balance.  I'm a news junkie but when I feel like I'm hearing the same thing over and over on a perspective, then I will turn the news off and not watch it for a few weeks.  It doesn't matter which news channel does this.  That's just me.

I have discovered that my mind is more steady when I know which perspectives are out there.  I don't need to know all of them.  I just need to nor more than my own and I can't personally define those other perspectives.  So for me. I will ask you about your perspective vs trying to tell you how you are without first asking you to share your perspective.



dvcochran said:


> You are basing your perspective on how 'loud' or prevalent these truth's have been presented. Sensationalism and manipulation at it's finest.


Actually I haven't said anything much about what is true and what isn't true.  I pretty much left it open for others to make their own assumptions about what I stated. I could be wrong, but I don't think I mentioned the word *true* or *truth* in anywhere. 
I was already aware of the behavior of people who lie and which type of people use this strategy of lying and brain washing.  Dictators, Cult Leaders, Parents, Marketers, Politicians.  This is why I always have to get into the correct mindset when talking about Manipulation



dvcochran said:


> Bear in mind, almost Everything as we know it is in a state of flux. What is true today will quite possibly not be true tomorrow. Use your radiation exposure in the early days as proof positive.


Everything we know is not in a state of flux. I will be a black American regardless if I wake up tomorrow or not. I could wake up dismembered and that would never change that truth.  You have to look at the context of which I made my statement about radiation. It doesn't apply to everything. It just applies to somethings, specifically about the topic or radiation as there has been a history of humans not fully understanding radiation.  There are a lot of things that I wouldn't apply that line of thinking to.

The problem with applying it to everything is that it also applies to what you think will be true. That means that what you think is untrue today will eventually proven true.  But apply that same rule again, and the truth of that comes tomorrow will also be proven untrue.  If you continue that cycle then nothing is true because the future will ultimately prove that it's untrue.



dvcochran said:


> I truly believe the way information is presented, received, and accessed will change radically in the next 10-20 years; just like it has in the previous equal length of time.


I believe this as well. The fact that we are communicating the way that we are speaks volumes. 



dvcochran said:


> As an example; your argument that All knowledge should be common knowledge to everyone. How is that at all possible when everything is changing in real time?


Not sure if that's my argument.  If I were to make an argument along the lines of that it would be "History Repeats itself."  "All life is a pattern and by understanding the pattern, we can understand the things to come."  We watch Jobo prey upon patterns all the time.  We usually refer to it as "stirring the pot" or "pushing buttons"  but it's nothing but pattern recognition.  Jobo recognizes the patters and behaviors and then exploits them. Which is again Manipulation.



dvcochran said:


> Another example of this is physics (which seems to be what you and @jobo have centered on). Many, many 'concrete' laws in physics have been either disproven or modified. But, my oh my, how many things have been discovered and/or invented based on the physical laws of the current time. Where would we be without them?


yeah that's Jobo in Manipulation mode with that coversation  We were originally talking about radiation and test subjects to see how long cancer would grow.  to  Physics and Quantum theories and scientist who are the smartest that the world has ever seen.  While totally ignoring the fact that science has created things and accomplish things that scientist in the past were unable to do.  I just didn't feel like getting into with Jobo on that today.  Then I'm called a scientist of Google.  not sure what that mean.  Nothing wrong with looking up names.  None of that changed my perception that the scientist of today are more knowledgeable than those of the past, evident by how many things exist today that didn't exist in 1938.  So naming someone who is "better" just doesn't matter.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> i came accross a site called" stolen history" which i though would be intresting, as with out doubt popular history has beem exstensivly edited rewriten, to remove some of the less savoury bits,
> 
> however, it reaches a whole new level of crazy,  im not sure if im allowed to link?
> 
> ...


When things get way out there you have to start looking at the historical documents that they claim to be using.
The flood that you are talking about is something popular among religions that believe that the earth is only 2020 years old .  Where year zero is the beginning of the earth.  Some guy years ago tried to hand me a brochure.  He was part of a homeschool group and was mad that the movie we showed said that water is millions of years old and that it's the same water that dinosaurs were drinking.   That set him off.  After the tour he singled me out and gave his rant about how humans and dinosaurs lived together and that I needed Jesus, and I should go to the church in the brochure that he handed me.  There haven't been many days stranger than that. Not sure why he focused on me, but damn.  I will forever remember that it happened lol.

According other sources there have been multiple great floods that have occurred in various places.  They have found multiple documents from many places in the world about a big flood.  The only thing is that these documents were not created during the same time period, nor did the flooding happen in the same part of the world.

I've read many treaties in highschool history.  I hated every minute of it. I didn't score high on those test either.  So I've read treaties but couldn't tell you much about them.  I can't even say that I would enjoy reading them now.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> So I will say the same phrase to you that I recently said to @skribs; 'paralysis by analysis' is So true and applicable to your list.


Actually I haven't done much analysis on it.  I just pointed out a pattern and recognize that it's similar to what other people and leaders have done. In other words it follows the same or similar rule sets and beliefs.  

I will usually post tons of links when I'm in my analysis mode.


----------



## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You would be correct on all points here.  I myself don't like the term manipulation and when I talk about it, I have to first remind myself not think of it as something as good or bad.  There's a lot stuff about manipulation that is hard to stomach.  It's like medicine.  You know the validity of it, but it's still going to taste like crap.lol.
> 
> To speak from personal experience is common.  We all experience this world directly or indirectly.  The amount of exposure we have and from which side of that exposure will play a large role in how we understand things.
> 
> ...


true scietific genius,  that original thought that changes the whole way we virw,science/ the world/ the universe comes around about every 200 years or so, so every 10 generations or so we get one genius

in the early 1900s we had half a dozen of them at the same time, a really bizare cluster of genius,,,, thats why there has beem a dramatic  increace in the rate of  technological exspantion,  these are people who were born before the invention of the internal conbustion engine who saw us through  atomic power  and though to the moon landing,  all the micro electronics and computers ate down to the original work they did in cica 1920,  all those that have come since have refined and redirected the original thought they did, with out themselves being greatly original.

even now the next generation of computing is dependent on what they did, way back then,there is enough there to keep us progressibg till the next original  genius comes along, about 2070 should do it


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> true scietific genius,  that original thought that changes the whole way we virw,science/ the world/ the universe comes around about every 200 years or so, so every 10 generations or so we get one genius
> 
> in the early 1900s we had half a dozen of them at the same time, a really bizare cluster of genius,,,, thats why there has beem a dramatic  increace in the rate of  technological exspantion,  these are people who were born before the invention of the internal conbustion engine who saw us through  atomic power  and though to the moon landing,  all the micro electronics and computers ate down to the original work they did in cica 1920,  all those that have come since have refined and redirected the original thought they did, with out themselves being greatly original.
> 
> even now the next generation of computing is dependent on what they did, way back then,there is enough there to keep us progressibg till the next original  genius comes along, about 2070 should do it


That was in an era of HUGE leaps in technology, which I do not think can be ignored. For example, look at the 300 years prior. Boring by comparison. I wonder if/when it will happen again, if ever. I do not see it happening in our lifetime. 
Sadly, I am very concerned we are headed towards another world war in our lifetime. 
This new regime in the US is scary as hell and it hasn’t even been a week. 
Liberalism hard at work.


----------



## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> That was in an era of HUGE leaps in technology, which I do not think can be ignored. For example, look at the 300 years prior. Boring by comparison. I wonder if/when it will happen again, if ever. I do not see it happening in our lifetime.
> Sadly, I am very concerned we are headed towards another world war in our lifetime.
> This new regime in the US is scary as hell and it hasn’t even been a week.
> Liberalism hard at work.


i dont disagree,  but i dont want the thread shutting down by straying into contempary history, ,i have a really bad feeling that society has changed for the worse over the last few months ,


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Sadly, I am very concerned we are headed towards another world war in our lifetime.


 When you start thinking like this then you should take a look at previous World wars.  First determine what it actually takes to have one. Then see if there is anything that meets those requirements. Don't follow what other's say when you do this.  These are things you should be able point out and verify on your own using other resources outside of the main one you use.



dvcochran said:


> This new regime in the US is scary as hell and it hasn’t even been a week.


What are you scared of?  Vaccinations?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> i dont disagree, but i dont want the thread shutting down by straying into contempary history,


I agree with this part.



jobo said:


> i have a really bad feeling that society has changed for the worse over the last few months ,


Not sure what bothers you.   We still have COVID-19 and it's behaving exactly like I thought it would.  Maybe your original view was too optimistic?


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You would be correct on all points here.  I myself don't like the term manipulation and when I talk about it, I have to first remind myself not think of it as something as good or bad.  There's a lot stuff about manipulation that is hard to stomach.  It's like medicine.  You know the validity of it, but it's still going to taste like crap.lol.
> 
> To speak from personal experience is common.  We all experience this world directly or indirectly.  The amount of exposure we have and from which side of that exposure will play a large role in how we understand things.
> 
> ...


Well said. 

I HATE when people seem to have the idea that history repeats itself engrained into every facet of life. While I know it has been true on many occasions it is such a restrictive and confining mindset to me. 

I had forgotten that you are a black man. So let me ask you this; I am a white guy, you are a black guy. Why does either fact mean anything at all? If you feel that it does then you are refusing to leave history where it should be, in the past. Remember it, study it? Sure. Learn from it? Absolutely! Repeat it? Only in the positives. This is a personal decision afforded by the freedoms of our country. That can be as good (or bad) as we choose it to be. 
I have said this many times before; I don’t even recognize a person’s color unless there is a reason to. Do your job and treat me fairly and we are good.  Act like a fool or a POS and again, color doesn’t matter. 

I did mean to get off on a tangent. I very much align with your thinking in this thread. 

I am typing this from my phone and realized it was somewhat annoying typing ‘color’ so many times.


----------



## jobo (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> When you start thinking like this then you should take a look at previous World wars.  First determine what it actually takes to have one. Then see if there is anything that meets those requirements. Don't follow what other's say when you do this.  These are things you should be able point out and verify on your own using other resources outside of the main one you use.
> 
> 
> What are you scared of?  Vaccinations?


what the last three world wars( yes there have been three) required was for a combination of britain, france, the germans and russia to fall out about things, like who rules the world. then for either  the spanish, the japanise or the american to join in

its not at all unlikley that we will fall out with france in the very near future, but im not seeing a war comning out of it.


the possibility for america, china and russia to fall out about who rules the world seems almost endless, china has been testing the  american resolve  against taking Taiwan back only today or yesterday now


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> When you start thinking like this then you should take a look at previous World wars.  First determine what it actually takes to have one. Then see if there is anything that meets those requirements. Don't follow what other's say when you do this.  These are things you should be able point out and verify on your own using other resources outside of the main one you use.
> 
> 
> What are you scared of?  Vaccinations?


I have studied the wars quite a lot. Strategy is kind of my jam. 
When I hear Mitt Romney compare the last administration to the time after Lincoln I shutter and just have to scratch my head. We had such a fresh breath of non-political and record breaking leadership it is shocking how fast politicians are jockeying to figure out where the lay in the new landscape. How are people not alarmed at what has already happened? Relations with and around foreign countries have already changed. How it that not indicative?


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> what the last three world wars( yes there have been three) required was for a combination of britain, france, the germans and russia to fall out about things, like who rules the world. then for either  the spanish, the japanise or the american to join in
> 
> its not at all unlikley that we will fall out with france in the very near future, but im not seeing a war comning out of it.
> 
> ...


You are not factoring in how much world power has shifted to the east/middle east.


----------



## Anarax (Jan 24, 2021)

Chrisinmd said:


> What makes people believe absurd conspiracy theories?  Are they stupid or just naïve?  Mentally ill?  Or are people just easily manipulated and controlled by others?
> 
> For example QAnon is a disproven and discredited far-right conspiracy theory alleging that a cabal of Satan-worshipping cannibalistic pedophiles is running a global child sex-trafficking ring and plotting against (former) U.S. president Donald Trump, who is fighting the cabal.
> 
> So what would make someone believe this crazy ****?  Or things like Alien Abductions or that the world is actually flat not round.



Conspiracy theories exist all over the spectrum, but there are plenty that are completely unfounded. The two biggest dynamics in play with the unfounded ones are ignorance and confirmation bias.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I had forgotten that you are a black man. So let me ask you this; I am a white guy, you are a black guy. Why does either fact mean anything at all?


Because it matters to other people who may think or believe differently than you.  For example.  If it doesn't matter to you and it doesn't matter to me.  Then in the context of you and me, it doesn't matter.  But  If we bring a 3rd person who thinks differently, and that person says. I get 3 meals a day because I'm black and you get 1 means a day because you are white, then it matters because the 3rd person has made it matter.

So any perception of one's existence that affects you in a positive way or a negative way matters in the context of how people see your existence.  This doesn't apply just to race, it also applies to gender, financial rank, society rank, tribe, etc.  This has been case for thousands of year.  

When I say History repeats itself, it is often referring to the behaviors that lead to the same or similar actions that were done in the past.  If we take a look at human behavior across the centuries we see that we still behave in many of the same ways as our ancestors. If you accept that this true then you can identify patterns that may trigger similar responses.  



dvcochran said:


> This is a personal decision afforded by the freedoms of our country. That can be as good (or bad) as we choose it to be.


There are some things that you can choose and some things that you cannot choose.  This is also shown consistently of in history.  While the US. was building "their freedoms" the freedoms of others were taken away.  I'm pretty sure that Native Americans didn't choose to lose their lands. No effort was made to include Native Americans as equals.  So I'm sure that wasn't something that was done by the choice of Native Americans.  It wasn't a "personal decision for them."  In reality I cannot champion freedom if I do not champion the freedom of others.  I definitely cannot champion it, if I think my freedom is more significant the the freedom of others.  If freedoms apply to one group but not another then it's not real freedom.  You can see this theme in history in various parts of the world too.  Caste systems and Tribal systems come to mind when everyone is of the same skin color.



dvcochran said:


> I don’t even recognize a person’s color unless there is a reason to.


 Statement's like this put you at the risk for only recognizing someone's color when there is something bad. Hence the term "reason to."  I always recognize a person's color because that's part of who they are.   What I don't do is allow skin color decide if that person is friend or enemy.   There's nothing wrong with you recognizing me as a black American or black person, or Afro-American.  pick the one that's easier for you.  Walk around and say that you chat with this black guy all the time.  That's fine too. There's no problem with that. As long as you don't feel that you NEED to say it or point it out.  But I would rather that you see me and my differences than to think that non exist.  It's ok for us to be different.  My whole family is different. Embrace that about people and don't think that there "has to be a reason" to see skin color.

Just don't let skin color be the deciding factor on how you treat people.  The benefit or recognizing skin color is that when people ignorantly claim that "White people do this" black people are like that." you can step up and defend your friend who doesn't look like you and tell that person who made the ignorant statement that they are wrong about their assumptions.

It's also ok if my race doesn't come up to mind when you respond.  I come on here nor dwell on what race other people are. I see it.  But that's the extent of it. But I don't look at people doing kung fu and say, oh that person is white or oh that person is black.  I don't actively point that out to myself.  I know that this isn't everyone. But for me,  I personally take pride that most of my friends aren't black.  If I were to count all of my friends then there would be a good mixture of people.  But again that's just me enjoying the differences of others.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I did mean to get off on a tangent.


Your fine .  I don't have any negative impressions towards you.  I feel good that you can be open about thing like that.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> what the last three world wars( yes there have been three) required was for a combination of britain, france, the germans and russia to fall out about things, like who rules the world. then for either  the spanish, the japanise or the american to join in
> 
> its not at all unlikley that we will fall out with france in the very near future, but im not seeing a war comning out of it.
> 
> ...


I think China treasures there economic growth too much to get into a major War with multiple countries going at each other.  Their gain on the global scale was not as a result of trying to have a war with the world.  They have succeed where Russian and Germany have failed in the past.   They were able to gain more global influence and that Russia has and more than what Germany and Japan were able to get out of WWII.

Their best interest is to preserve what allowed them to have such large economic gains and continue to gain in global power by continuing to stay on the same path that has allowed their country to make the gains that it has made.

China and the US will bark at each other. Both will try to reduce each other's global partnership.  If anything, I would watch to see how the Russia China relationship continues to partner on Economic issues.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Relations with and around foreign countries have already changed. How it that not indicative?


I would watch this more than anything else.  Specifically our relationships with countries who are our allies.  There's some repair that is needed and it's going to take a long time to make those repairs.  Economic wise, it's a bad time to be an isolationist country.   Relationships are everything.  If you gotta kick some Martial Arts butt, in a multiple attack scenario then it's better to have friends to help you out, than to go it alone.   This applies in all aspects not just war.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Because it matters to other people who may think or believe differently than you. For example. If it doesn't matter to you and it doesn't matter to me. Then in the context of you and me, it doesn't matter. But If we bring a 3rd person who thinks differently, and that person says. I get 3 meals a day because I'm black and you get 1 means a day because you are white, then it matters because the 3rd person has made it matter.
> 
> So any perception of one's existence that affects you in a positive way or a negative way matters in the context of how people see your existence. This doesn't apply just to race, it also applies to gender, financial rank, society rank, tribe, etc. This has been case for thousands of year.
> 
> When I say History repeats itself, it is often referring to the behaviors that lead to the same or similar actions that were done in the past. If we take a look at human behavior across the centuries we see that we still behave in many of the same ways as our ancestors. If you accept that this true then you can identify patterns that may trigger similar responses.





JowGaWolf said:


> There are some things that you can choose and some things that you cannot choose. This is also shown consistently of in history. While the US. was building "their freedoms" the freedoms of others were taken away. I'm pretty sure that Native Americans didn't choose to lose their lands. No effort was made to include Native Americans as equals. So I'm sure that wasn't something that was done by the choice of Native Americans. It wasn't a "personal decision for them." In reality I cannot champion freedom if I do not champion the freedom of others. I definitely cannot champion it, if I think my freedom is more significant the the freedom of others. If freedoms apply to one group but not another then it's not real freedom. You can see this theme in history in various parts of the world too. Caste systems and Tribal systems come to mind when everyone is of the same skin color.



It is the comments in these two sections that stand out to me when I talk about living and being affected by the past. A comparison like the one you make in the first paragraph is just irrational to me. I get the point you are making but it just seems like a poor and very outdated example to use. It does not exist in our US society. I am VERY thankful for that and imminently aware of the implications. We have done missions trips all over the world and the conditions I have seen people living in have broken my heart many times.  
Do I feel bad for what happened to Native Americans and African Americans? Absolutely. Do I (me directly) feel responsible for it? Absolutely not. We are all equally yoked today. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. I hope that does not come across wrong or cross. 
I do not feel either of us really understand what is like to live in a country like Ukraine or Russia. That is the point I was trying to make about our freedom's afforded. It includes everyone today. 



JowGaWolf said:


> Statement's like this put you at the risk for only recognizing someone's color when there is something bad. Hence the term "reason to." I always recognize a person's color because that's part of who they are. What I don't do is allow skin color decide if that person is friend or enemy. There's nothing wrong with you recognizing me as a black American or black person, or Afro-American. pick the one that's easier for you. Walk around and say that you chat with this black guy all the time. That's fine too. There's no problem with that. As long as you don't feel that you NEED to say it or point it out. But I would rather that you see me and my differences than to think that non exist. It's ok for us to be different. My whole family is different. Embrace that about people and don't think that there "has to be a reason" to see skin color.
> 
> Just don't let skin color be the deciding factor on how you treat people. The benefit or recognizing skin color is that when people ignorantly claim that "White people do this" black people are like that." you can step up and defend your friend who doesn't look like you and tell that person who made the ignorant statement that they are wrong about their assumptions.
> 
> It's also ok if my race doesn't come up to mind when you respond. I come on here nor dwell on what race other people are. I see it. But that's the extent of it. But I don't look at people doing kung fu and say, oh that person is white or oh that person is black. I don't actively point that out to myself. I know that this isn't everyone. But for me, I personally take pride that most of my friends aren't black. If I were to count all of my friends then there would be a good mixture of people. But again that's just me enjoying the differences of others.



I am not surprised by the response, try as I may to prevent it. Believe me when I say my family is a rather strange mixed bag. See, I truly do not think in the vein you mention until it comes up. My "reason to" reference was more along the lines of "look for the tall black guy wearing the red shirt". I seems futile trying to defend or prove that position when it seems at every corner there is someone who refuses to let the past go. I live in redneck USA and I know both sides are living large. Why is it wrong for me to say I refuse to let it affect my sphere. 

Want to say it Loudly again; I give 2 sxxts what color you are. Just do your job. 
I think we see eye to eye.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would watch this more than anything else.  Specifically our relationships with countries who are our allies.  There's some repair that is needed and it's going to take a long time to make those repairs.  Economic wise, it's a bad time to be an isolationist country.   Relationships are everything.  If you gotta kick some Martial Arts butt, in a multiple attack scenario then it's better to have friends to help you out, than to go it alone.   This applies in all aspects not just war.


Agree. So why are we disrupting relations with our neighbor to the North? Makes no sense at all. Putting all the economics aside, having access to resources is really what wins wars in the end.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

Bye the bye, I appreciate the banter. I need the distraction.


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2021)

What do we know about conspiracy theories?

A Game Designer’s Analysis Of QAnon

Couple of interesting articles I've read recently that tackle the same points from different directions.  I think the idea of guided apophenia is very interesting.


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2021)

What do you do when a flat earther leans over to you, gives you a knowing look and says, "Conspiracy theories.  What kind of person falls for those? Am I right?". That's what discussions like this with people who think covid 19 is a hoax is like.  I'm honestly not sure how to process that.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Do I feel bad for what happened to Native Americans and African Americans? Absolutely. Do I (me directly) feel responsible for it? Absolutely not


You shouldn't feel responsible.  I know you weren't born or involved in that so I wouldn't hold that against you.  My point of mentioning that is to show that sometimes we don't get to choose.  I can bring a more updated version but don't take it personal.

Segregation, women's rights, religious freedoms for one group but not another.  Those people didn't get to choose.  But again, on the other side of all of that we can see where improvements were made and where equality was the goal.  It's it perfect. nope. but it's movement in the right direction.  But as I've stated history has a tendency to repeat itself.  While discrimination still occurs very little is done on the basis of race.   Instead it now based on gender. Some of those same arguments that were used for race discrimination are now the same arguments used for sexual discrimination.

I only bring up things in the past so you can compare the actions that happened then that are happening or that fairly recent as history goes.  I don't know anything about your family but there's a chance that in the future your family will become as diverse as mine if it's not already so. If and when this happens and you are still living, you will view things from different perspective. 



dvcochran said:


> it just seems like a poor and very outdated example to use. It does not exist in our US society.


 Again repeating trends.  It doesn't matter when it happened as much as it keeps repeating and it's not always the same group of people.  Where I agree with Jobo is .  'If it happened the first time, what would make me think it won't happen again."
















This is what Jobo was talking about.  Using US soldiers as guinea pigs to test the effects of the atom bomb testing. I agree with him on this part. Just not the part about the test being done to see how fast cancer grows. 





This is about the historical trends of family separation of families that have occurred in the US.







dvcochran said:


> I do not feel either of us really understand what is like to live in a country like Ukraine or Russia.


To be honest  I don't want to know what it feels what it like.  If we (any American or any person in our country)  know how that feels due to something the US has done to us, then it means we ignored the signs and didn't stop it before it happened.  It's my responsibility as much as it yours.  It's your responsibility as much as it is mine.  While we didn't do the deeds before our birth we are responsible for what we do in our lives today.  Just my opinion on it.  If we ignore that responsibility then it is our fault. 

When history asks who stood up for what was morally right and fair. What will our answer be?


dvcochran said:


> Believe me when I say my family is a rather strange mixed bag.


I believe you when you say it.  You don't talk much about your family.  I'm not saying you have to, but if I say something inaccurate about your family then correct me on it.  Don't let me continue on "stupid street" lol.  Be a friend. Don't let me walk around with a booger hanging out of my noise.  Don't let me walk around with bad breath. lol  Those are things I can correct. lol.



dvcochran said:


> Why is it wrong for me to say I refuse to let it affect my sphere.


I will have to take your word on it.   It's just that I look at things slightly different.  Everything affects my sphere in one way or another.  It's not always a negative thing, it's mostly positive even when it's one of those times I've put my foot in my mouth and learned that I didn't know what I was talking about.  Other times it's just a blip on the radar and after that it's like what you stated.  Race doesn't come up until something is mention that makes me think of it.  

The thing that I appreciate about this conversation we have is that we are having it and it was fairly open about our perspectives without either one of us feeling like one was trying to "make the other person feel this way."   At least I hope I wasn't making you feel that way as it wasn't my intent.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. So why are we disrupting relations with our neighbor to the North? Makes no sense at all. Putting all the economics aside, having access to resources is really what wins wars in the end.


 Assuming we are looking at the same thing. Your guess is good as mine.  This may we one of those things where there's no rational reason to do so.  The year is young and new players are on the board, so we'll watch and see how the world reacts.  

I would be happy just to get rid of Covid-19  After months of some doctors and scientist stating that there is no need to worry about deadly mutations and that it's rare.  Now we have 2  new strains that are believed to be more deadly than the original.  If that's the case then a lot of world priorities will change. hopefully for the better.

You are also right about having resources, can't fight or win a war without them.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2021)

Steve said:


> What do we know about conspiracy theories?
> 
> A Game Designer’s Analysis Of QAnon
> 
> Couple of interesting articles I've read recently that tackle the same points from different directions.  I think the idea of guided apophenia is very interesting.


That's scary. Grade A Mind Warp.  I feel good amount the stability of my mind, but that sounds like some stuff to be very cautious of.  Like something that once it finds a way in, that it will just continue to pull you in. 

 All it needs to do is to "grasp on a thread" of possible truth in order to unravel reality.  There are going to be some really screwed up minds in the future.

The only thing I can think of that would fix something like this this is to run head on into reality in a bad way.  Like things would have to get so bad that the person would no longer trust what comes from that group.  So far the only thing I've seen that's strong enough has been death and suffering.  People think that this is a US problem.  I'm hear to report that this is something that is spreading around the world as far as the Philippines.

My brother-in-law believes the the conspiracy that the OP quoted.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's scary. Grade A Mind Warp.  I feel good amount the stability of my mind, but that sounds like some stuff to be very cautious of.  Like something that once it finds a way in, that it will just continue to pull you in.
> 
> All it needs to do is to "grasp on a thread" of possible truth in order to unravel reality.  There are going to be some really screwed up minds in the future.
> 
> ...


Yeah, and the really scary thing is that the people who are deep in the conspiracy game believe they are stable in the head too! And so deep are they in that bubble that there's often nothing that can convince them of their delusion until the proverbial s**t hits the fan and things go really bad... that's why in cults they really have to get taken for a ride, lose their family, money, trust of themselves and people outside the group, everything before they start to see that hey... something's not right here...

Another thing I've seen is that if people face alot of opposition and disagreement of their views, they mistakenly assume that they MUST hold the truth if it's causing such disruption.... (have seen that on this forum even) and sad they don't see that it's people simply calling them on their nonsense.

Statements like "ah they just don't understand...", "they just can't handle the truth" etc seem common...


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 25, 2021)

Conspiracy theorists are literally being played.
A game designer explains the success of QAnon, in terms of game design | Boing Boing


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think China treasures there economic growth too much to get into a major War with multiple countries going at each other.  Their gain on the global scale was not as a result of trying to have a war with the world.  They have succeed where Russian and Germany have failed in the past.   They were able to gain more global influence and that Russia has and more than what Germany and Japan were able to get out of WWII.
> 
> Their best interest is to preserve what allowed them to have such large economic gains and continue to gain in global power by continuing to stay on the same path that has allowed their country to make the gains that it has made.
> 
> China and the US will bark at each other. Both will try to reduce each other's global partnership.  If anything, I would watch to see how the Russia China relationship continues to partner on Economic issues.


well wars, at least war ready are a major boot for economics of a country, as long of course as you dont loose,

im sure china doesnt want a war, but china has numerous territory claims, with india, with japan and with Taiwan to name just three, they are currently pushing these. and of course there on going support  for rocket man and the reasobaly likely attack on the soulth 

its far from unlikely they will take decisive  military action in one or more of these.

america is sworn to protect japan,and soulth Korea  india has a huge army and a nuclear bomb and Taiwan looks a bit vulnerable,  a lot depends on if they view the new administration as weak how far they will push it.

the amount  of Chinese investment in the states, means that taking any action  at all, with have significant ecomonic consequences


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> What do you do when a flat earther leans over to you, gives you a knowing look and says, "Conspiracy theories.  What kind of person falls for those? Am I right?". That's what discussions like this with people who think covid 19 is a hoax is like.  I'm honestly not sure how to process that.


i see a great big stawman has entered the room.

ive not seen any one on here say iits a hoax,  its more that the infringment of freedoms are completly out of proportion  to the actual threat.

further  that the prescribed controls are border line useless,  if not infact seriously counter productive.

there is no doubt that the new more contagious( and possibly more deadly) versions are a direct result of the half hearted control measures, evolution  in action, if they ramp up the controls the virus will again respond,  they may as well have let the more friendly virus run its course, than annoy it into greater action


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> i see a great big stawman has entered the room.
> 
> ive not seen any one on here say iits a hoax,  its more that the infringment of freedoms are completly out of proportion  to the actual threat.
> 
> ...


Really scratching my head on what people find funny with your comments.


----------



## Buka (Jan 25, 2021)

My favorite conspiracy theorists have to be the flat earthers. I had to escort one off the property at the airport I work. I asked him "Is there like a fence on the edge so we won't fall off?" His eyes brightened when he told me, "No! That's one of the problems!"

Sad. But funny, too.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 25, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I have studied the wars quite a lot. Strategy is kind of my jam.
> When I hear Mitt Romney compare the last administration to the time after Lincoln I shutter and just have to scratch my head. We had such a fresh breath of non-political and record breaking leadership it is shocking how fast politicians are jockeying to figure out where the lay in the new landscape. How are people not alarmed at what has already happened? Relations with and around foreign countries have already changed. How it that not indicative?


***EDIT*** It was NOT Mitt who said this. It was Rand Paul. 
My senior moment for the day.


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Really scratching my head on what people find funny with your comments.


it passive agressive, they have no counter point  to make so just attempt to mock, it happens a lot on here


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 25, 2021)

Buka said:


> My favorite conspiracy theorists have to be the flat earthers. I had to escort one off the property at the airport I work. I asked him "Is there like a fence on the edge so we won't fall off?" His eyes brightened when he told me, "No! That's one of the problems!"
> 
> Sad. But funny, too.


The one's that are genuine about it, I just feel bad for. Can you imagine living with the fear that if you go out on a boat you might fall off the ocean? Or the paranoia that literally everyone who has been important for the last 500 years has been lying to you about something that obvious?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> it passive agressive, they have no counter point  to make so just attempt to mock, it happens a lot on here


Not that one, but I just genuinely find your posts funny sometimes, whether or not I agree with them. I think it's your writing style. But if a post makes me laugh, for whatever reason, I click 'funny'.


----------



## Steve (Jan 25, 2021)

Buka said:


> My favorite conspiracy theorists have to be the flat earthers. I had to escort one off the property at the airport I work. I asked him "Is there like a fence on the edge so we won't fall off?" His eyes brightened when he told me, "No! That's one of the problems!"
> 
> Sad. But funny, too.


Sad.  But funny, too.  Says it all.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that we have a problem right now, at least in parts of America, where a lot of folks are bought into conspiracy theories of one kind or another, but they don't know it.  They think they're rational, objective, and that their belief in conspiracies is perfectly justified and supported by... something.  We've seen evidence of this phenomenon on this very forum, and I'm confident that we all know people who are caught up in conspiracies.  

I think there are a couple of important threads to chase down here.  First, why do people in general fall into conspiracy theories?  Second, though, is can people who are caught up in conspiracy theories and irrational positions figure out that's where they are?  I mean, say you're completely bought into qanon... how do you know it when you're in it?  How can we, who aren't in it, help those who are gain some perspective and self-awareness?


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Sad.  But funny, too.  Says it all.
> 
> The point I was trying to make earlier is that we have a problem right now, at least in parts of America, where a lot of folks are bought into conspiracy theories of one kind or another, but they don't know it.  They think they're rational, objective, and that their belief in conspiracies is perfectly justified and supported by... something.  We've seen evidence of this phenomenon on this very forum, and I'm confident that we all know people who are caught up in conspiracies.
> 
> I think there are a couple of important threads to chase down here.  First, why do people in general fall into conspiracy theories?  Second, though, is can people who are caught up in conspiracy theories and irrational positions figure out that's where they are?  I mean, say you're completely bought into qanon... how do you know it when you're in it?  How can we, who aren't in it, help those who are gain some perspective and self-awareness?


a great number of the conspiracies have come true over the last 12 months, at that point your not going to convince people who predicited more or less the exact situation we find ourselves, that they were wrong

we are currently living im an Orwellian night mare of state control,  only time will tell if that ever actualy get reversed to previous level of self determination, freedom and freedom of exspresion, i have my doubts

we saw riots in Holland last night against  the removal of freedoms, im hoping this is a trend


----------



## granfire (Jan 25, 2021)

Chrisinmd said:


> What makes people believe absurd conspiracy theories?  Are they stupid or just naïve?  Mentally ill?  Or are people just easily manipulated and controlled by others?
> 
> For example QAnon is a disproven and discredited far-right conspiracy theory alleging that a cabal of Satan-worshipping cannibalistic pedophiles is running a global child sex-trafficking ring and plotting against (former) U.S. president Donald Trump, who is fighting the cabal.
> 
> So what would make someone believe this crazy ****?  Or things like Alien Abductions or that the world is actually flat not round.



Well, they are being gamed. 
Moved like pawns and it spirals out of control from there. 
[URL="https://www.thestreet.com/phildavis/news/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon"]A Game Designer’s Analysis Of QAnon[/URL]

This is quite the frightening read, to be honest. They are being put on a trail of non-existing evidence, and form conclusions vial circumstantial evidence. Or rather coincidental events. 
And of course since you can't prove the absence of something, there we go. You know, you can't prove there is no god, ergo there is, and so forth. 
And of course they flock to each other, and pat each other on the back and reinforce the bull puckey. 

The issue is the financing of the great game though. while the snowball effect takes care of some of the financial issues, the initial crazy had to come from somewhere.


----------



## Buka (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Sad.  But funny, too.  Says it all.
> 
> The point I was trying to make earlier is that we have a problem right now, at least in parts of America, where a lot of folks are bought into conspiracy theories of one kind or another, but they don't know it.  They think they're rational, objective, and that their belief in conspiracies is perfectly justified and supported by... something.  We've seen evidence of this phenomenon on this very forum, and I'm confident that we all know people who are caught up in conspiracies.
> 
> I think there are a couple of important threads to chase down here.  First, why do people in general fall into conspiracy theories?  Second, though, is can people who are caught up in conspiracy theories and irrational positions figure out that's where they are?  I mean, say you're completely bought into qanon... how do you know it when you're in it?  How can we, who aren't in it, help those who are gain some perspective and self-awareness?



I think a lot of people are lost. They then search for something to grab on to, become a part of.

Have you ever been spoken to by a devout Scientologist? I suppose I could say a "devout anything".

And I purposely said "spoken to" and not spoken with, because any interaction I've had, either professionally or personally, was initiated by them. Every single time. I must have the look of a chump in private life, I seem to attract them.


----------



## granfire (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> What do you do when a flat earther leans over to you, gives you a knowing look and says, "Conspiracy theories.  What kind of person falls for those? Am I right?". That's what discussions like this with people who think covid 19 is a hoax is like.  I'm honestly not sure how to process that.


"Put your mask on and stand 60 yards back"


----------



## drop bear (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> i see a great big stawman has entered the room.
> 
> ive not seen any one on here say iits a hoax,  its more that the infringment of freedoms are completly out of proportion  to the actual threat.
> 
> ...



What?

That isn't how it works at all.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 25, 2021)

Buka said:


> My favorite conspiracy theorists have to be the flat earthers. I had to escort one off the property at the airport I work. I asked him "Is there like a fence on the edge so we won't fall off?" His eyes brightened when he told me, "No! That's one of the problems!"
> 
> Sad. But funny, too.



Sovereign citizens.

 Because if they remove consent to be governed by laws suddenly you can't skull drag them or something.


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> What?
> 
> That isn't how it works at all.


thats not how evolution works? i think youl find it is exactly how evolution works


----------



## drop bear (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> thats not how evolution works? i think youl find it is exactly how evolution works



That a virus left to run its course doesn't mutate in to something worse?

Look up Spanish flu.


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> That a virus left to run its course doesn't mutate in to something worse?
> 
> Look up Spanish flu.


that half **** controls dont breed super varients look up antibitic resistant bacteria

and the spanish flu didnt mutate in to some thing worse  it was lethal to begin with, then it mutated to be safe,, in fact it mutated its self out of existance, which is what killer viruses tend to do if you leave them alone, hence the number of people in the world


----------



## drop bear (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> that half **** controls dont breed super varients look up antibitic resistant bacteria
> 
> and the spanish flu didnt mutate in to some thing worse  it was lethal to begin with, then it mutated to be safe,, in fact it mutated its self out of existance



The bubonic plague?


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The bubonic plague?


not a virus,


----------



## drop bear (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> not a virus,



And so isnt subject to your version of evolution?


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And so isnt subject to your version of evolution?


its not my version of evolution, its the official version, not admittedly what you were told a elimentary school were they tend to dumb it down a bit for the audience

i said viruses tend to mutate to be come less deadly, which they do

you offer the bubonic plauge as a counter argument, which isnt a virus and so not subject to my statement above

it did however disapear of its own accord from Europe and was less deadly where it did occur so it follows similar patterns though not something ive looked into more deeply than that

be honest, you thought it was a virus? didnt you?

it wasnt helped by the fact they killed all the cats and dogs, as they though they were the carriers, who were keeping the rat population  down, so half arsed controls that do more harm than good are not a new thing


----------



## Steve (Jan 25, 2021)

Just to say, covid-19 was an example, not the point.  Derailing the thread with a pointless discussion about a specific conspiracy theory is actually a logical fallacy.  It's called a red herring.  To be honest, I have no interest in engaging in conspiracy theorists within their specific conspiracies.  That just doesn't seem like a very healthy discussion to have.  We went that route and in the face of overwhelming evidence, a few folks on this forum (4 or so, IIRC), just doubled down into 

The point is that if someone has been drawn into belief in a conspiracy theory, having a meta discussion about being drawn into conspiracies, in general, is kind of pointless.  At best, it results in some ironic (or funny) posts that demonstrate lack of self awareness.  But mostly, it just seems mean spirited and unproductive.  What I mean is, of course the person will point to other conspiracies and say, "Look at those nutters.  Glad I'm not like them.  The things I believe in (e.g., that the Earth is flat, or that Trump is waging a secret war against deep state pedophiles with links to the Democratic party, or that COVID19 is a hoax, hospitals have a vested interest in artificially inflating covid death rates, or that 5g networks are controlling peoples' minds, etc) are very reasonable.  Not like those other conspiracies like... (insert same list here)!"

I know we have some folks with some actual credentials in mental health.  I'm very interested in how we begin to deprogram people.  I mean, what do we do with people who are sucked in?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> I know we have some folks with some actual credentials in mental health.  I'm very interested in how we begin to deprogram people.  I mean, what do we do with people who are sucked in?


So first: I'm not addressing any specific conspiracy theories either. Or confirming or denying that any of your list is a conspiracy theory. With that out of the way..I'll answer this question.

The actual answer to this is that it's kinda tricky. It starts with leading them to figure out what the truth is on their own, asking questions where they have to answer with the opposing evidence/statements to what they already said. Then pull a _very_ subtle columbo "Just one more thing" on it. But ultimately you need to get them to convince you of what the truth actually is. If it turns into what they're arguing, the resistance to it goes away, because now they need the truth to be correct for them to remain right, rather than the fiction they've convinced themselves of. 

It doesn't sound easy, and it's not as easy as it sounds. There are fields of therapy devoted to this for specific truths (cognitive depressive truths, substance abuse, schizophrenic truths, etc.). And it's not always exactly like the above paragraph, but that's what all of them seem to boil down to.


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Just to say, covid-19 was an example, not the point.  Derailing the thread with a pointless discussion about a specific conspiracy theory is actually a logical fallacy.  It's called a red herring.  To be honest, I have no interest in engaging in conspiracy theorists within their specific conspiracies.  That just doesn't seem like a very healthy discussion to have.  We went that route and in the face of overwhelming evidence, a few folks on this forum (4 or so, IIRC), just doubled down into
> 
> The point is that if someone has been drawn into belief in a conspiracy theory, having a meta discussion about being drawn into conspiracies, in general, is kind of pointless.  At best, it results in some ironic (or funny) posts that demonstrate lack of self awareness.  But mostly, it just seems mean spirited and unproductive.  What I mean is, of course the person will point to other conspiracies and say, "Look at those nutters.  Glad I'm not like them.  The things I believe in (e.g., that the Earth is flat, or that Trump is waging a secret war against deep state pedophiles with links to the Democratic party, or that COVID19 is a hoax, hospitals have a vested interest in artificially inflating covid death rates, or that 5g networks are controlling peoples' minds, etc) are very reasonable.  Not like those other conspiracies like... (insert same list here)!"
> 
> I know we have some folks with some actual credentials in mental health.  I'm very interested in how we begin to deprogram people.  I mean, what do we do with people who are sucked in?


you just want to take any one with a different view than you and dehumanise them and belittle them by calling their mental health in to question.

you want to insult people but not engage in exploring those views, that rather coz you cant win a reasoned debate, so adhom


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So first: I'm not addressing any specific conspiracy theories either. Or confirming or denying that any of your list is a conspiracy theory. With that out of the way..I'll answer this question.
> 
> The actual answer to this is that it's kinda tricky. It starts with leading them to figure out what the truth is on their own, asking questions where they have to answer with the opposing evidence/statements to what they already said. Then pull a _very_ subtle columbo "Just one more thing" on it. But ultimately you need to get them to convince you of what the truth actually is. If it turns into what they're arguing, the resistance to it goes away, because now they need the truth to be correct for them to remain right, rather than the fiction they've convinced themselves of.
> 
> It doesn't sound easy, and it's not as easy as it sounds. There are fields of therapy devoted to this for specific truths (cognitive depressive truths, substance abuse, schizophrenic truths, etc.). And it's not always exactly like the above paragraph, but that's what all of them seem to boil down to.


but what if any one conspiracy  they belive is substantialy correct, then the therapy becomes state sponsered brain washing

the uk govenment lied about the wmds, people who called them out on it were called conspiracy theorists,  but hell they were right


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not that one, but I just genuinely find your posts funny sometimes, whether or not I agree with them. I think it's your writing style. But if a post makes me laugh, for whatever reason, I click 'funny'.


@jobo has the best spelling on the forum.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Just to say, covid-19 was an example, not the point.  Derailing the thread with a pointless discussion about a specific conspiracy theory is actually a logical fallacy.  It's called a red herring.  To be honest, I have no interest in engaging in conspiracy theorists within their specific conspiracies.  That just doesn't seem like a very healthy discussion to have.  We went that route and in the face of overwhelming evidence, a few folks on this forum (4 or so, IIRC), just doubled down into
> 
> The point is that if someone has been drawn into belief in a conspiracy theory, having a meta discussion about being drawn into conspiracies, in general, is kind of pointless.  At best, it results in some ironic (or funny) posts that demonstrate lack of self awareness.  But mostly, it just seems mean spirited and unproductive.  What I mean is, of course the person will point to other conspiracies and say, "Look at those nutters.  Glad I'm not like them.  The things I believe in (e.g., that the Earth is flat, or that Trump is waging a secret war against deep state pedophiles with links to the Democratic party, or that COVID19 is a hoax, hospitals have a vested interest in artificially inflating covid death rates, or that 5g networks are controlling peoples' minds, etc) are very reasonable.  Not like those other conspiracies like... (insert same list here)!"
> 
> I know we have some folks with some actual credentials in mental health.  I'm very interested in how we begin to deprogram people.  I mean, what do we do with people who are sucked in?


Wow. That clarified a lot about you. 
We all have the right to our opinions and I usually enjoy arguing a point with most anyone but you sir are an exception. I don’t think credentials apply to you but mental....
Downright creepy.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 25, 2021)

Buka said:


> I asked him "Is there like a fence on the edge so we won't fall off?" His eyes brightened when he told me, "No! That's one of the problems!"


I can actually picture this.  You make a statement think it something would click in his mind and make him think a little more.  But No. His little train just keeps going and says "No! That's one of the problems!"

The more I hear stuff like this the more I wish there were lions and tigers that would just pop out of no where and eat them up. lol  I looked at some of their models of the Universe which are the most interesting things. The repeating theme is that The earth is flat but everything else, the sun the, moon and other planets are spherical.  

But wait.  if the earth is flat why don't we fall off?
Answer: "from speaker Darren Nesbit, who referred to the "Pac-Man effect" as the reason why planes don't fall off the edge of a flat Earth, according to the science news website Physics-Astronomy.org. When a plane or other object reaches the edge of the horizon, such as when Pac-Man reaches the end of the screen, that object will teleport from one side of the planet to the other, a la Pac-Man entering from the other side of the screen"

People like that cannot handle reality at all.  Like they really don't understand how large this planet is.  This is a must watch.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The one's that are genuine about it, I just feel bad for. Can you imagine living with the fear that if you go out on a boat you might fall off the ocean? Or the paranoia that literally everyone who has been important for the last 500 years has been lying to you about something that obvious?


They should be the first tourist shot into space. Let them take video and photos.  They probably still won't believe but it would be interesting to see what they come up with as an excuse.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> but what if any one conspiracy  they belive is substantialy correct, then the therapy becomes state sponsered brain washing
> 
> the uk govenment lied about the wmds, people who called them out on it were called conspiracy theorists,  but hell they were right


The thing with that method is that it hinges on them being incorrect. You won't be able to make much progress on convincing someone based around their contradictions, if there are no contradictions to begin with.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 25, 2021)

I have a something that's true.

I'm actually an alien species that come from a planet far away.  My people used the same material that money is made of to enter a metamorphosis phase that grows wings on on our backs. These wings allow us to safely travel through space, but now I'm having trouble gathering enough money in order to start my metamorphosis.  There are about 5000 of us on this planet, which explains why rich people are so reach. We have to hibernate on top of money for 80 years.

Humans have been helping my kind return to our planet.  if you want to help me or my kind.  send money to.

Jowga wolf
333 my wallet
Thakya, Ga 45555

In appreciation. I will send you one of my old  feathers as proof.  Not actual size.  Actual size is 50 ft. which is why it takes a lot of money to get my wings to start growing lol


----------



## Steve (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> you just want to take any one with a different view than you and dehumanise them and belittle them by calling their mental health in to question.
> 
> you want to insult people but not engage in exploring those views, that rather coz you cant win a reasoned debate, so adhom


All right, big guy.  You want some attention. I'll give you a couple of minutes.  

I think you're just confused and upset because the discussion I'm interested in isn't the one you're interested in.  For some reason, you take your inability to take the discussion down whatever rabbit hole you want personally.  I'm not interested in debating whether or not a particular conspiracy theory is whacky or not, whether that's covid, the flat earth society, flying spaghetti monsters, or that the earth is only somewhere between 6k and 10k years old.  I don't know what you think is dehumanizing about that, but that's really your cross to bear.  

I am interested in hearing from some folks strategies for talking to people about these things, but I want to be clear, I have no one on this forum in mind.  I really don't entertain any hope of convincing folks of anything here.  I do, however, have some people in my life whom I care about, who are deep down the QAnon train.  I can let them go, or I can try and bring some of them back.  Not sure how successful that will be, but they're worth the effort, I think.  For better or worse, when folks are so deep in a conspiracy, it is a mental health issue.  Or more precisely, it's something that people who are trained therapists will have some insight into.  Not suggesting that it's actually mental illness. 

So, bottom line, I know this is going to be hard for you to accept, but this isn't all about you.  In fact, it's not about you at all.  You could literally be pulled out of this thread and I wouldn't miss you at all. 

That you see of this as an insult and react the way you do says two things to me.  First, that on some level, you are worried that you're being manipulated into believing some crazy conspiracies (or at least, that your behavior or beliefs lead others to see you that way).  And two, that you have a broken and outdated view of mental health.  Again, it's a shame, but that's on you, not me.  

Alright.  That's it.  Have a nice day.


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> All right, big guy.  You want some attention. I'll give you a couple of minutes.
> 
> I think you're just confused and upset because the discussion I'm interested in isn't the one you're interested in.  For some reason, you take your inability to take the discussion down whatever rabbit hole you want personally.  I'm not interested in debating whether or not a particular conspiracy theory is whacky or not, whether that's covid, the flat earth society, flying spaghetti monsters, or that the earth is only somewhere between 6k and 10k years old.  I don't know what you think is dehumanizing about that, but that's really your cross to bear.
> 
> ...


so your not intrested in if theory is wacky or true, just in how to stop people beliving the wacky or true theory, makes sence?


----------



## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The thing with that method is that it hinges on them being incorrect. You won't be able to make much progress on convincing someone based around their contradictions, if there are no contradictions to begin with.


would you think it ethical or even legal to use that against the contradictions of say an organised religious belief


----------



## Steve (Jan 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> They should be the first tourist shot into space. Let them take video and photos.  They probably still won't believe but it would be interesting to see what they come up with as an excuse.


Didn't one of them actually kill himself trying to "prove" the earth is flat by shooting himself into space on a homemade rocket?  I'll have to see if I can find that.


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## Steve (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> so your not intrested in if theory is wacky or true, just in how to stop people beliving the wacky or true theory, makes sence?


LOL.  Sort of.  It's not that I'm not interested.  I mean, it's fun sometimes to watch Ancient Aliens and hear about what the Ancient Alien Theorists are proposing.  

If someone believes that aliens are the reason we have jet planes, you really don't owe them a counter argument.  It's just not needed.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Didn't one of them actually kill himself trying to "prove" the earth is flat by shooting himself into space on a homemade rocket?  I'll have to see if I can find that.


I heard about that, but didn't know he was a flat Earther.  I thought he was just someone who didn't realize how much math is required to get into space.

Just read up on him.
Dude was nuts.  He was trying to get into space in a steam powered rocket? Man he was totally unprepared.  In space with steam?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> would you think it ethical or even legal to use that against the contradictions of say an organised religious belief


As a member of a government, no. As a mental health counselor (ex-now), not unless there was significant evidence that it was contributing to a negative mental health state (that never came up while I was counseling, the only ways I could see it coming up are if someone was clearly in a cult, or they believed the religion was telling them to go out and kill people/themselves or something similar). And I'd be focusing purely on the positives/negatives they get from the religion, rather than the religion itself, if I were to address that at all. In my state trying to dissuade someone from a religion (or persuade someone to a religion) for theological reasons is a good way to lose your license. As someone discussing those things with friends, I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be ethical/legal.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I heard about that, but didn't know he was a flat Earther.  I thought he was just someone who didn't realize how much math is required to get into space.
> 
> Just read up on him.
> Dude was nuts.  He was trying to get into space in a steam powered rocket? Man he was totally unprepared.  In space with steam?


I'm just thinking of the type of friends I would have to have that would support me in something like that.  Seems more like something your enemy would encourage you to do lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 25, 2021)

My flat earth thoughts




He needed a wing suit


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## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> LOL.  Sort of.  It's not that I'm not interested.  I mean, it's fun sometimes to watch Ancient Aliens and hear about what the Ancient Alien Theorists are proposing.
> 
> If someone believes that aliens are the reason we have jet planes, you really don't owe them a counter argument.  It's just not needed.


im pretty sure no one has ever said that

you said you dont want to know if its wacky or not, you just want them to have mental health help so they stop believing  some thing you dont belive,

a significantly high % of scientist belive in the existance of aliens, hell they are spending billions trying to find the bugfers


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## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> As a member of a government, no. As a mental health counselor (ex-now), not unless there was significant evidence that it was contributing to a negative mental health state (that never came up while I was counseling, the only ways I could see it coming up are if someone was clearly in a cult, or they believed the religion was telling them to go out and kill people/themselves or something similar). And I'd be focusing purely on the positives/negatives they get from the religion, rather than the religion itself, if I were to address that at all. In my state trying to dissuade someone from a religion (or persuade someone to a religion) for theological reasons is a good way to lose your license. As someone discussing those things with friends, I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be ethical/legal.


well exactly , yet as far a delusions go a belief  in a deity is right up there with flat earth
.in fact most of the serious exponents of flat earth do so on religious grounds, that is it being the best fit to genesis,  it doesnt actually say that but its hard to reconsile a globe going round  the sun with the world of god, so flat earth and floods and pet dinosaurs .

if you took the religious crack pots of of the conspiracy  comnunities there wouldnt be to many left .


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> well exactly , yet as far a delusions go a belief  in a deity is right up there with flat earth
> .in fact most of the serious exponents of flat earth do so on religious grounds, that is it being the best fit to genesis,  it doesnt actually say that but its hard to reconsile a globe going round  the sun with the world of god, so flat earth and floods and pet dinosaurs .
> 
> if you took the religious crack pots of of the conspiracy  comnunities there wouldnt be to many left .


Except I haven't made the argument that any of it should be dealt with. I stated what would be effective for it, and if you notice each of the examples I gave were related in some way to negative mental health.


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## Steve (Jan 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> As a member of a government, no. As a mental health counselor (ex-now), not unless there was significant evidence that it was contributing to a negative mental health state (that never came up while I was counseling, the only ways I could see it coming up are if someone was clearly in a cult, or they believed the religion was telling them to go out and kill people/themselves or something similar). And I'd be focusing purely on the positives/negatives they get from the religion, rather than the religion itself, if I were to address that at all. In my state trying to dissuade someone from a religion (or persuade someone to a religion) for theological reasons is a good way to lose your license. As someone discussing those things with friends, I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be ethical/legal.


Positives and negatives is a key to this.  I don't have a problem with crackpot ideas.  Like I said, I actually enjoy watching ancient aliens (though I don't believe it). 

I think it's really only an issue when the conspiracy leads to either harm to the individual or harm to others.  Religion, for better or worse, is a red herring because it's a protected base.  Simply put, any discussion about it is moot because the way it's handled (crackpot or not) is protected. 

But generally, if someone believes in Sasquatch, no worries.  Big deal.  If someone believes you are Sasquatch and wants to capture and dissect you in the name of science ... Well maybe it's time for an intervention.

QAnon, as a relevant current example, is a delusion that is dangerous and so warrants some intervention.


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## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Except I haven't made the argument that any of it should be dealt with. I stated what would be effective for it, and if you notice each of the examples I gave were related in some way to negative mental health.


so a belief insupernatural  beings  isnt a negative, it majes me wonder what level of delusion you need for it to be come a negative


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## jobo (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Positives and negatives is a key to this.  I don't have a problem with crackpot ideas.  Like I said, I actually enjoy watching ancient aliens (though I don't believe it).
> 
> I think it's really only an issue when the conspiracy leads to either harm to the individual or harm to others.  Religion, for better or worse, is a red herring because it's a protected base.  Simply put, any discussion about it is moot because the way it's handled (crackpot or not) is protected.
> 
> ...


most conspiracies are protected under the right of free exspresion, but you want them to have help for mental health issues


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> so a belief insupernatural  beings  isnt a negative, it majes me wonder what level of delusion you need for it to be come a negative


Pretty sure I included examples.


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## Steve (Jan 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> most conspiracies are protected under the right of free exspresion, but you want them to have help for mental health issues


What are you talking about?  I'm not suggesting we arrest people for conspiracy theories though we saw on January 6 that believing in them can lead to actions that may get you arrested.

Right to free expression.  Lol.


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## dvcochran (Jan 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> My flat earth thoughts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But the shape of the body he lands on would not matter as long as it is underneath him. 
If you really want to get into the math read about how difficult it was for them to line that jump up and the variables they had to take into account. More precision involved than you may think.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 25, 2021)

Thread locked pending staff review.


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