# Lemme stir the pot...



## Cryozombie (Jul 6, 2008)

Sakki: real or a parlor trick?

Discuss.


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## Archangel M (Jul 6, 2008)

The senses trained to perceive "natural" stimuli such as the sound of sleeves/the air disturbed by the blade, lights/shadows etc. Perhaps even on a subconscious level...that I may buy.

The mystical perception of "killing intent"? Im skeptical.


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## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> The senses trained to perceive "natural" stimuli such as the sound of sleeves/the air disturbed by the blade, lights/shadows etc. Perhaps even on a subconscious level...that I may buy.
> 
> The mystical perception of "killing intent"? Im skeptical.


There's something to it.  Is it some mystical energy?  I don't know.  But I've felt the intent from people that really wanted to hurt me.  I think it's something like the way you can feel when someone's looking at you, or it may be the result of the entire combination of senses and perceptions coming together.  I don't know if it's some mystical woo-woo stuff, or just some perception that we're wired with as human beings...

If you look at some of the videos of the Bujinkan sakki test that are on-line, you can see a difference in the way the folks who passed move compared to those who didn't.  The passes almost seem surprised that they've moved...


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## Archangel M (Jul 6, 2008)

Thats my way of thinking as well. Our brain filters out TONS of data every second. But the subconscious sees all. I think these "feelings" are a product of that "background noise data" bubbling up to the conscious level. Perhaps through training/experience a person can more easily tap into that well.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 6, 2008)

It is nothing mystical just something that is.  Anyone who has faced danger and perceived it before hand understands this.  Jks9199 is right on when saying that he knew someone meant him harm.  There are however ways to train this skill set.  They are subtle and fairly reliable but not mystical or magical by any means. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  This skill set is availble for everyone if they are willing to *acknowledge it*.


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## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is nothing mystical just something that is.  Anyone who has faced danger and perceived it before hand understands this.  Jks9199 is right on when saying that he knew someone meant him harm.  There are however ways to train this skill set.  They are subtle and fairly reliable but not mystical or magical by any means.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think one of the hardest things about this is to learn to listen to your instincts, to get that gut feeling and not discount it.  We have a set of Fighting Principles in Bando; the last one is to "sense dangerous situations."  You only learn to do this by practicing all the others, by training diligently and properly.

I was hugely fortunate to have a teacher who knew this, and could teach it.  I've seen people who know it -- but can't or don't teach it, and even more who don't know it at all.  I hope I am teaching my students... though I've got one that needs a bit of a reality check...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 6, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I think one of the hardest things about this is to learn to listen to your instincts, to get that gut feeling and not discount it. We have a set of Fighting Principles in Bando; the last one is to "sense dangerous situations." You only learn to do this by practicing all the others, by training diligently and properly.
> 
> I was hugely fortunate to have a teacher who knew this, and could teach it. I've seen people who know it -- but can't or don't teach it, and even more who don't know it at all. I hope I am teaching my students... though I've got one that needs a bit of a reality check...


 
Absolutely, trust those instincts and make that a major part of your everyday life.  Like you I have been fortunate as well to have good teachers that understood this.  Even before that however I was inducted into it in a couple of moments of violence.  Baptism by fire.


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## shesulsa (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm always curious as to why things that most people perceive as natural they are so willing to quickly call "mystic" when they are associated with tales of glory and older wisdom.  One might think these tales of glory are around to remind us to stop befuddling ourselves with looking at things on strange angles.

Subconsciousness ... intuition ... gut feeling ... sakki ....  Isn't it all the same thing?


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## Twin Fist (Jul 7, 2008)

pretty much what She said


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## mrhnau (Jul 7, 2008)

Might not be an aspect of sakki, but when I calm myself, my spirit and mind, I am indeed more aware. In this society, its really hard to be calm. So much noise, distraction, bills to pay, people to feed... hard to just live and be deeply aware of your surroundings.

I do seem to recall Hatsumi discussing that you can't really prepare for the test, and, if I recall correctly, said that the best idea might be to take walks. I find I actually observe more when I'm driving slow, or when I can sit down and actually be relaxed. Might be related?


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 7, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Sakki: real or a parlor trick?
> 
> Discuss.



As with anything, it could be both depending upon those involved. 



jks9199 said:


> There's something to it. Is it some mystical energy? I don't know. But I've felt the intent from people that really wanted to hurt me. I think it's something like the way you can feel when someone's looking at you, or it may be the result of the entire combination of senses and perceptions coming together. I don't know if it's some mystical woo-woo stuff, or just some perception that we're wired with as human beings...
> 
> If you look at some of the videos of the Bujinkan sakki test that are on-line, you can see a difference in the way the folks who passed move compared to those who didn't. The passes almost seem surprised that they've moved...



I can perceive intent as well as project it. I have been places and been upset, and just breathed to stay calm and did not look at people, but those around me knew better than enter my space. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is nothing mystical just something that is. Anyone who has faced danger and perceived it before hand understands this. Jks9199 is right on when saying that he knew someone meant him harm. There are however ways to train this skill set. They are subtle and fairly reliable but not mystical or magical by any means.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Learning to let go and feel the force I mean your instinct is something that in a polite society most people have trained themselves to not do. This might be why those involved with violence sometimes are in such shock as there system is trying to catch up. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Absolutely, trust those instincts and make that a major part of your everyday life. Like you I have been fortunate as well to have good teachers that understood this. Even before that however I was inducted into it in a couple of moments of violence. Baptism by fire.



Having been in a situation where one has to learn to survive always helps. 



shesulsa said:


> I'm always curious as to why things that most people perceive as natural they are so willing to quickly call "mystic" when they are associated with tales of glory and older wisdom.  One might think these tales of glory are around to remind us to stop befuddling ourselves with looking at things on strange angles.
> 
> Subconsciousness ... intuition ... gut feeling ... sakki ....  Isn't it all the same thing?



It could be. And in my mind it is. But, I recognize I do not train the art in question and there could be something new for me to learn.


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## tellner (Jul 7, 2008)

The brain filters and processes an incredible amount of information. Very little of it bubbles up to the conscious mind. We spend a lot of time ignoring sensations, especially in noisy, hyperstimulating urban environments. 

There are plenty of martial arts which practice blindfolded sparring. Students learn to feel air currents and vibrations or hear pretty subtle things like the deadening of sound when someone steps in front of a ventilation duct. 

Occam's Razor, brothers. _Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem_. We can explain it without positing anything new, so there's no reason to add the woo-woo. 

I won't say it isn't "mystical" though. Training in many such traditions includes being aware of what is going on around you and separating it from what is going on inside your head. In that sense there is a "mystic" training process at work. But it's a very concrete matter-of-fact thing.


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## Shicomm (Jul 9, 2008)

It's a different game if you've only seen it on tape , having seen it for real is somthing else  
Imho it's very real but it's very hard to explain why


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## allenjp (Jul 9, 2008)

All I know is that every single time I spend more than a second looking at someone, they turn and look back at me. Especially when I'm driving in my car. Do they feel it? Do they see my face turned toward them out of the corner of their eye? I don't know.

If you read Cesar Millan's books, (the dog whisperer) he talks about animals perceiving what he calls energy. I think we all have seen how a lot of animals seem to almost have a sixth sense. Are they just picking up on sensory clues that we are not very intuned to? I don't know.

But it seems to me that whatever causes these phenomena can be intensified for the person that knows how to sharpen all their senses.

I have seen videos of this test, and it doesn't seem possible to me that it is not real. Just my .02 of a dollar.


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## Kreth (Jul 9, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> The senses trained to perceive "natural" stimuli such as the sound of sleeves/the air disturbed by the blade, lights/shadows etc. Perhaps even on a subconscious level...that I may buy.


Do some research on reaction speed. Once the blade starts moving downward in the godan test, it is physically impossible for you to hear or see something and react in time to not get hit.


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2008)

But some psychic ability to detect "killing intent" and then physically move is faster? Is the "intent" slower than the physical movement??


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## jks9199 (Jul 9, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> But some psychic ability to detect "killing intent" and then physically move is faster? Is the "intent" slower than the physical movement??


Well, intention pretty much has to precede action, right?  So, maybe whatever it is, maybe just "looking at extra hard", comes before the actual cut?

I know that in class, I've felt students intent to strike before they tried to hit me.  On the street, I've picked up on someone getting that "happy feet" feeling, or deciding whether or not to hit me before they did it -- and was able to prevent either by moving before them...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2008)

allenjp said:


> All I know is that every single time I spend more than a second looking at someone, they turn and look back at me. Especially when I'm driving in my car. Do they feel it? Do they see my face turned toward them out of the corner of their eye? I don't know.
> 
> If you read Cesar Millan's books, (the dog whisperer) he talks about animals perceiving what he calls energy. I think we all have seen how a lot of animals seem to almost have a sixth sense. Are they just picking up on sensory clues that we are not very intuned to? I don't know.
> 
> ...



Noticing when people are checking you out or if they notice when you are checking them out is something  definately to cultivate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






Kreth said:


> Do some research on reaction speed. Once the blade starts moving downward in the godan test, it is physically impossible for you to hear or see something and react in time to not get hit.



Absolutely!


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## Sukerkin (Jul 9, 2008)

I just wanted to say what an excellent thread this is ladies and gentlemen.  The principles discussed are precisely the same as what is termed _zanshin_ in the Japanese Sword Arts.

As only a nidan, I'm not sure that I'd be able to 'detect' an attack from behind from someone who was already standing there but we do train to prempt cuts without warning from sword-length range.  

It's not mystical as I would term it but you do certainly pick up on intent to strike before the sword begins to move.  The oddity is that if you concentrate too much on, say, watching the eyes/hands etc then you are less efficient at picking this up than the diffuse awareness ('wide zanshin' my sensei calls it) that a swordsman is expected to wear at all times when he is not actually engaged.


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2008)

I wouldn't think that the time between the intent to swing the sword and the actual swinging of the sword would be of any significant difference when it comes to reaction time. When fighting face to face you can notice things like the opponent glancing at where he intends to strike, picking up on patterns of movement and technique. All very quantifiable data.

I'm sure you can pick up on intent, but what is it that picks it up? Data enters the brain box through the senses. I still posit that the perception of "intent" is explainable through a conscious or subconscious sensing of stimuli. In the more "mystical" sense through a subconscious response to stimuli. Ive sensed peoples intent before as well. But if I looked back on it many "threat indicators" were present. Target glance, fist clenching, thousand yard stare, ignoring commands, jaw tightening, paling of the skin. As humans we all have similar reactions prefight. Some people can sense those indicators without consciously knowing about them. I think that this test is a different manifestation of the same phenomena.


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## allenjp (Jul 9, 2008)

Yeah, all that stuff is true, but during this test the pupil cannot see the soke, so they cannot pick up on visual clues like that. Also, he starts with the sword raised above his head, so they cannot detect him raising it to prepare for a strike. 

However they do it, it's amazing...and beyond my current abilities.


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## allenjp (Jul 9, 2008)

> Noticing when people are checking you out or if they notice when you are checking them out is something definately to cultivate.


 
Why do you think I was interested enough to notice that?


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## jks9199 (Jul 9, 2008)

I know there are at least one or two members of MT who have participated in this test.  I kind of hope they might post something about it...  though it seems to defy description.

I did come across THIS page some time ago, when I was looking for info on this test...


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Yeah, all that stuff is true, but during this test the pupil cannot see the soke, so they cannot pick up on visual clues like that. Also, he starts with the sword raised above his head, so they cannot detect him raising it to prepare for a strike.
> 
> However they do it, it's amazing...and beyond my current abilities.


 
True. But there could also be the skill of simply good estimation. You know there is someone behind you...you know what he is going to do...how long would I wait...NOW!!

If the test was a purely random attack at any time in any place and one could avoid it. That I would have a hard time explaining if it was consistently successful.


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2008)

Found a discussion on the topic here.

Some interesting opinions. One I never thought of is either a conscious or subconscious reaction to the audience sitting in front of you. And another poster had a good point when he said.



> And you apparently have to only get lucky once. It would be nice to see a careful experimental protocol with repeated trials to get good statistics.



Which has a point.

Interesting.


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## Kreth (Jul 9, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> True. But there could also be the skill of simply good estimation. You know there is someone behind you...you know what he is going to do...how long would I wait...NOW!!


Except I've seen people fail because they kept jumping too soon...


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## antihero.zero (Jul 9, 2008)

This probably will not be a very popular belief here, but I believe there is a subconscious connection between human minds that allows humans to share emotions.  I believe most humans have experienced this, but they usually dismiss these feelings as coincidence, or ignore them entirely.  Unless you've personally experienced what I'm referring to, you'll probably dismiss this post as "mysticism" talk.

I started studying Taijutsu when I was 12-years-old, and early in my training I performed an exercise where I was sitting outside meditating (mentally picturing myself inside a heightened perception bubble, where I could 'feel' every blade of grass move) and my brother/instructor would sneak up to me and try to touch me on the shoulder.  My goal was to raise my hand and point in the direction he was coming from right before he touched me.

After a couple years of this training, with regular meditiation, I eventually got so sensative that I could feel intention (feel the emotion of the person in question) through walls.  One time I had a friend sneak into my yard at midnight, and I could feel his overwhelming desire to attempt to be quiet as he did it.  I could feel him as he moved around my house, and I sort of followed him through the wall this way as he circled half the yard to make his way to the door to my room.  Another time I was woken out of a sound sleep because I could feel someone standing outside the wall where I was sleeping (another friend who had come to wake me late at night).

Science cannot explain this phenomenon, and people who say that it is simply your mind picking up subtle conventional perception cues have probably not experienced the event deeply enough to dismiss this notion.  Some animals hunt entirely by sensing tiny electrical impulses that build in the muscles of insects the moment before muscle contraction, and in this way they know when their pray is about to move.  It is possible that humans can also sense electrical impulses in the brain, or magnetic polarity changes, or smell pheromones, etc.  Regardless of how it happens, I am 100% certain that sensing another human's emotion is something a person can be trained to recognize.  Even untrained people experience this, which is why when you're sneaking up behind someone it is important to remember to dampen your intention while doing it.  You wouldn't want to be actively starring at their back and thinking, "I'm gonna get you..."  If you did this, they would be very likely to inexplicably turn around and lock eye contact with you.


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2008)

I used to do stuff like that with my buddies back in the big hair, ninjamania 80's days. The hand raising drill was in Hayses old books. Which I had all volumes of. I used to believe in things back then that I have a different perspective on now. Doesn't mean I'm right or anybody else here is wrong. Its just good conversation.

Different strokes for different folks.

There I go with the 80's references again.


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