# What Do The Tenets of Taekwondo Have to Do With Hate?



## dancingalone (Nov 20, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> In everything I've ever read about what constitutes the pure martial art aspects of TKD.......there is included a philosophical aspect that seeks to embody in us positive characteristics........and HATE is not and cannot be one of them. Therefore, to both sides of the debate, if HATE in any way forms the basis of your arguments, especially if you claim to be a participant in the "art", your points are moot from the first word.



This new thread seemed appropriate instead of sidetracking the sport TKD thread.  I thought chungdokwan123 made an interesting point and I thought it would be good for further discussion.

Regardless of whether one "hates" sport TKD or not, let's consider his point that you cannot be a taekwondoist if you hate.  Is that necessarily true?  We all have negative emotions from time to time:  sadness, greed, anger, and yes, hate.  Obviously some of us feel these more strongly than others, perhaps even to the point of excess or loss of control.   

We should all strive to be better people, to show kindness and patience to others despite any notion of warrant.  But if we don't manage to be perfect paragons of virtue or even if we choose to let a negative emotion win for a time, does that necessarily contradict the tenets of taekwondo? 

I learned the tenets of taekwondo as Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self Control, Indomitable Spirit.

Where does it say one cannot hate?  Self Control, perhaps?  Is this debateable?  

As a further discussion point, where is the balance in all of this?  Yin and Yang or Um and Yang.  One cannot exist without the other and it seems too ascetic to deny oneself everything deemed 'negative'.


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## granfire (Nov 20, 2009)

Self control vs hate, LOL


'Hate' is a grossly overused word. Most often the emotion does not reach past a strong dislike. Drama.


Or energy, misdirected.

One has to be ultimately clear that such negative emotions only affect one self and hardly ever in a constructive way.

back to the tenets, they the essence of what makes tough situation endurable. Positive, strong aspects.

The ITA has added a couple more to the seven we already had, strength, wisdom, added to Honor, courtesy, integrity, Self-control, perseverance, courage and community. Hate and anger usually clouds one's judgment.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 20, 2009)

aint nothing wrong with hate.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 20, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> aint nothing wrong with hate.


 
Agreed.  I think plenty of people can embody the tenets of TKD, Courtesy, Integrity as set codified by General Choi,  from other historical sources, (all systems calling themselves TKD may not adopt these tenets, yet in certain circumstances  (many Americans who may follow the temnets very likely hae Osama Bin Laden) hate something or someone. 

I like to think I embody the tenets, yet I hate the taste of Broccoli.  The degree of hate for the taste of broccoli and Olympic Sparring are about the same.   For those who like the taste of Broccoli, carry on.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 20, 2009)

Personally, I don't feel that hate has any place in the martial arts - or for that matter in most of daily life.  Hate leads to a lack of self control and a disregard for other people.  To me, I have no desire to really hate anyone.  There are certainly some people that I really don't like and some things that I really don't like, but I wouldn't say that it reaches into hate in any way.  Another thing that hate breeds, which has no place in martial arts is temper.  A bad temper will do nothing but make yourself and those around you unhappy and miserable.  Call me an idealist, but I strive to be happy myself and to see those around me happy.

But, many people are perfectly happy with their hate and that is their perogative.  I wouldn't disqualify them from the practice of martial arts, but I would have serious issues with entrusting the knowledge of how to injure or kill others to a person with no self control and a bad temper.


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## dancingalone (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm big on balance.  Too much of a good thing, like medicine for example, can be equally bad for your health.  I don't look upon hate as something to be always avoided - it's an unavoidable part of the human condition.  If we say we do not hate, it's only likely that we've never had sufficient stimulus to make us hate.

Mr. Weiss gave a good example of bin Lauden as a possible figure where it may be 'valid' to hate him.  I don't think it incompatible at all for someone versed in the Tenets nonetheless to harbor some strong grudge or dislike in their heart.



> but I would have serious issues with entrusting the knowledge of how to injure or kill others to a person with no self control and a bad temper.



I agree to a point.  I recall from some of your previous posts that you also have some experience in aikido like myself.  I've always been bemused that the founder of aikido was by his own account an angry violent man when younger, and I often ponder what the practice of karate was like before it became almost universally taught as a "Do", rather than as a pure fighting system.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 20, 2009)

Balance is good - extremes are bad.  Call me a buddhist...

True, I have a bit of aikido experience, the gentle art.  But I believe the even O'Sensei would agree that anger and temper won't help you win a confrontation.

But there was certainly a time when Karate was a pure combat fighting art, although I believe that many of their practices were designed to instill a sense of calm and preparedness, even during combat - your mind is more clear if you are able to keep your temper in place and control the release of adrenaline...


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## MBuzzy (Nov 20, 2009)

hehe, and SOME temper and just a little self control can be ok...


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## granfire (Nov 20, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> But, many people are perfectly happy with their hate and that is their perogative.



That is actually quiet funny. Hate and happy in one sentence.

But seriously when you analyse it closer you might find that 'hate' shifts control from yourself to the object of your hate. Or it's used as excuse to behave badly.

Bin Laden for example. Poster boy for hate. His hate of the US caused the whole trouble. largely founded on rumors, half truth and outright lies. I am sure, he is perfectly fine with his hate, too.

From where I am looking at, hate really does not mix well, actually with civilized life in general.

hate, IMHO is an emotion that takes too much energy.


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## ATC (Nov 20, 2009)

Well if you live by the tenants then you can hate just as long as you don't act on that hate. The tenants should bind you from letting that hate get the best of you.

Some schools also have a set of commandments that help support or strengthens the tenets. I know we do. They may vary from school to school but they go something like this.

1.Be loyal to your country.
2.Be a good son or daughter to your parents.
3.Be faithful to your spouse.
4.Be on good terms with your brothers and sisters.
5.Be loyal to your friends.
6.Be respectful to your elders.
7.Respect and trust your teachers.
8.Never take a life unjustly.
9.help build a more peaceful world.
10.Always finish what you start.

These are not our actual commandments but they are pretty close. I have to apologize for not know the exact terms of ours. That's pretty bad of me as we test the color belts on this regularly. I have gotten 1 or 2 worded incorrectly.

"Bad teacher bad".


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## granfire (Nov 20, 2009)

ATC said:


> Well if you live by the tenants then you can hate just as long as you don't act on that hate. The tenants should bind you from letting that hate get the best of you.
> 
> Some schools also have a set of commandments that help support or strengthens the tenets. I know we do. They may vary from school to school but they go something like this.
> 
> ...



Well, it doesn't state you had to be a good teacher!


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## miguksaram (Nov 20, 2009)

It has pretty much been said, but allow me to repeat the idea in my own words.  'Hate', and 'Love' for that matter, have been overused to a point that their meaning has been watered down.  We use 'hate' freely when we dislike something but at what point does it begin to lose its impactive meaning?  'I hate sparring' 'I hate a pedofiles.'  Is the dislike for sparring equal to that of disliking someone who rapes kids? I don't think so.     Using the term Love is the same thing.  Do I hold the meaning of love for pasta the same as the love for my wife? Not at all.  Yet, I do find myself using the term quite loosely.  

Does the term 'Hate' have anything to do with the Tenets?  I don't feel it does.  I practice Courtesy, Integrity, Self Control, Perserverance, and Indomitable Spirit.  I can still hate a pedofile without breaking any of these tenents.  These tenets describe how I should act, not how I should feel.


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## Nomad (Nov 20, 2009)

Seems to me that if there is a tenet or precept or statement against hate, it's there as a reminder of what to strive for.  

No one enters a philosophy of any kind if they already embody all aspects of it; otherwise why would you bother since there's nothing to work towards in terms of self-improvement?

A statement like "Treat everyone with respect" or "Never act from anger" to give a couple of examples clearly acknowledge that sometimes we are inclined to do exactly what the statements warn against, and are a simple reminder that we should seek a different way to act/react.  Same thing with hate.


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## granfire (Nov 20, 2009)

Nomad said:


> Seems to me that if there is a tenet or precept or statement against hate, it's there as a reminder of what to strive for.
> 
> No one enters a philosophy of any kind if they already embody all aspects of it; otherwise why would you bother since there's nothing to work towards in terms of self-improvement?
> 
> A statement like "Treat everyone with respect" or "Never act from anger" to give a couple of examples clearly acknowledge that sometimes we are inclined to do exactly what the statements warn against, and are a simple reminder that we should seek a different way to act/react.  Same thing with hate.




Well, of course rules and guidelines are put forth to change curren behavior.


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## Joab (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm a Christian, Christians arn't supposed to hate. I still do hate at times, but I try not to, and when I do I confess it and repent, and hope to not hate again. I like the words "righteous anger" better than hate. If somebody is trying to kill me they are going to make my wife a widow and my sisters lose a brother, it ain't going to happen!

 That's the way I try to look at things anyway.


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## Marginal (Nov 20, 2009)

It's possible to disagree, even disagree strongly without hating an issue or the people who hold opposing opinions. 

http://www.comdo.com/reference02.html

Taekwon-Do students should attempt to practice the following elements of courtesy to build up their noble character and to conduct the training in an orderly manner as well.

1) To promote the spirit of mutual concessions
2) To be ashamed of one's vices, contempting those of others
3) To be polite to one another
4) To encourage the sense of justice and humanity
5) To distinguish instructor from student, senior from junior, and elder from younger
6) To behave oneself according to etiquette
7) To respect others' possessions
8) To handle matters with fairness and sincerity
9) To refrain from giving or accepting a gift when in doubt​
IMO, trying to see things from the other person's point of view (#1) helps diffuse a lot of the hard feelings.


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 21, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> > I like to think I embody the tenets, yet I hate the taste of Broccoli.  The degree of hate for the taste of broccoli and Olympic Sparring are about the same.   For those who like the taste of Broccoli, carry on.
> 
> 
> Interesting......establishing a parallel between one's dislike of broccoli and a philosophical divide that can only serve to damage a very respectable art.
> ...


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 21, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> > This new thread seemed appropriate instead of sidetracking the sport TKD thread.  I thought chungdokwan123 made an interesting point and I thought it would be good for further discussion.
> 
> 
> Me thinks I've created a philosophical poop storm.
> ...


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 21, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> Earl Weiss said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting......establishing a parallel between one's dislike of broccoli and a philosophical divide that can only serve to damage a very respectable art.
> ...


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 22, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> chungdokwan123 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh well, that's why restaurants have menus.  Lots of foods are respected and even good for you. That doesn't mean you should like them or repect them.   are the respected good for you foods damaged by those who don't like them?
> ...


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## dancingalone (Nov 22, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> It would be impossible to separate one's self from everything negative.....we're human.  It's just that I see so much contention in a sphere of life where there should be more attempts at unity.....then again, perhaps my naivete has gotten the better of me?
> 
> I'm truly interested in folks' opinions on the matter.



I think one can take the 'feel good' character-building aspects of martial arts too far.  I think your post that started this discussion is far too extreme a position.  Dissent & differing opinions are all essential attributes of individuals - it is no wrong to value different things.  And that's before we even bring taekwondo into the discussion.  Taekwondo is a martial art, sometimes a martial sport - it's not an exercise in http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&...resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=homogeneity&spell=1homogeneity nor should it be a religion.


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## terryl965 (Nov 22, 2009)

One should try to live there lifes with great Tenets and not just inside the dojaang


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 22, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I think one can take the 'feel good' character-building aspects of martial arts too far.  I think your post that started this discussion is far too extreme a position.  Dissent & differing opinions are all essential attributes of individuals - it is no wrong to value different things.  And that's before we even bring taekwondo into the discussion.  Taekwondo is a martial art, sometimes a martial sport - it's not an exercise in homogeneity nor should it be a religion.





> dancingalone
> ".......made an interesting point and I thought it would be good for further discussion."


But not anymore?

I'm not criticizing a differing opinion......perhaps the mode and depth of said, but not the opinion........nor the opinion giver.



> I think one can take the 'feel good' character-building aspects of martial arts too far.


Really?  A person can develop too much character?  

If we want to draw parallels to aid in discussion, then let's draw more relevant ones.  I could expound upon the state of today's society and point to our having turned away from the basic tenets of our country's founding......the Constitution.  Philosophically relevant, perhaps.....but not specifically relevant.

Or we can try this:  Let's accept for a moment that any TKD discipline that engages in sparring has a sport aspect to it.  I don't think that's stretching the boundaries.  Now, let's look at other sports.....and the multitude of negative press that accompanies them.  Scandal, corruption, and brushes with the law on behalf of participants abound.  Michael Vick, Mike Tyson, the recent exploits of the players from the University of Tennessee......and on and on and on.  Where were the basic tenets and character building facets of the sports in which they engaged?  Do they even exist?

Let's ask another question.  Separate for a moment TKD practitioners into "sport" versus "art" groups.  This is not to suggest that there isn't a coupling between the two.....not at all.  For most there very likely is.  Yet which group would be more likely to encounter trouble with misrepresenting marital arts in general by misusing their skills for nefarious purposes?

Would that be the group more grounded in heavy character building through universally accepted tenets, or the group more focused on "sport"?

I beg to differ with your contention.  While I agree that TKD shouldn't be a religion, perhaps a bit more homogeneity would be beneficial......and more importantly, I submit that it is the very basis of TKD philosophies that make it, as with other traditional arts, as separate and distinct from other activities as it is possible to be.  

Or perhaps you would prefer that our art morph into something resembling UFC?  

Ground-and-pound anyone?


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## dancingalone (Nov 22, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> But not anymore?
> 
> I'm not criticizing a differing opinion......perhaps the mode and depth of said, but not the opinion........nor the opinion giver.



I'm discussing the topic.  Just because I disagree with your perspective doesn't mean I'm stepping over the line or being rude.  Please re-read everything I wrote before coming to any conclusion along those lines.



> Really?  A person can develop too much character?



Perhaps.  TKD is at its core a fighting system.  I am simply saying some may be binding more into it than they should.  If you want a surfeit of philosophy, I would suggest studying it as its own subject, as it deserves much more attention than a few fortune cookie sayings during an hour long TKD session.



> If we want to draw parallels to aid in discussion, then let's draw more relevant ones.  I could expound upon the state of today's society and point to our having turned away from the basic tenets of our country's founding......the Constitution.  Philosophically relevant, perhaps.....but not specifically relevant.



Yeah, that's even further out into left field.  So I wouldn't go there.



> Or we can try this:  Let's accept for a moment that any TKD discipline that engages in sparring has a sport aspect to it.  I don't think that's stretching the boundaries.  Now, let's look at other sports.....and the multitude of negative press that accompanies them.  Scandal, corruption, and brushes with the law on behalf of participants abound.  Michael Vick, Mike Tyson, the recent exploits of the players from the University of Tennessee......and on and on and on.  Where were the basic tenets and character building facets of the sports in which they engaged?  Do they even exist?



I wouldn't even begin to compare NCAA football with pro boxing with taekwondo either traditional or sport.  Apples and oranges.



> Let's ask another question.  Separate for a moment TKD practitioners into "sport" versus "art" groups.  This is not to suggest that there isn't a coupling between the two.....not at all.  For most there very likely is.  Yet which group would be more likely to encounter trouble with misrepresenting marital arts in general by misusing their skills for nefarious purposes?
> 
> Would that be the group more grounded in heavy character building through universally accepted tenets, or the group more focused on "sport"?



I probably wouldn't be the one to ask about that.  I'm for returning TKD more universally towards an effective fighting system, not one for sport or for teaching children how to be nice to one another.



> I beg to differ with your contention.  While I agree that TKD shouldn't be a religion, perhaps a bit more homogeneity would be beneficial......and more importantly, I submit that it is the very basis of TKD philosophies that make it, as with other traditional arts, as separate and distinct from other activities as it is possible to be.



Not really.  The tenets of TKD are clearly inspired by the various dojo kun recited by karate-ka across Japan and Okinawa.  Most Shotokan dojos used one similar to this one:

_Seek perfection of character
Protect the way of the truth 
        Foster the spirit of effort 
        Respect the principles of etiquette and respect others
        Guard against impetuous courage and refrain from violent behavior.          _ 

The tenets of TKD (courtesy, integrity, etc) are very similar indeed and probably owed a great deal to what Gichin Funakoshi promulgated.

As for more homogenuity, I don't support it.  There are too many TKD groups around the world all with distinct expressions of what TKD means to them.  I see this as a plus rather than a minus because frankly there are many groups I could never see myself training with either because their focus is elsewhere than self-defense practice or because they're too consumed with internal politics.



> Or perhaps you would prefer that our art morph into something resembling UFC?
> Ground-and-pound anyone?



Well, I practice a traditional karate curriculum with plenty of close range work.  It probably resembles ground and pound more than it does sport taekwondo.  I prefer it that way myself.

[/quote]


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> But not anymore?
> 
> I'm not criticizing a differing opinion......perhaps the mode and depth of said, but not the opinion........nor the opinion giver.
> 
> ...


 
You do know that UFC is actually a trade name for a competition and not a martial art?

I'd also like to point out that MMA fighters don't punch or kick the referees.

Martial arts is about learning to fight, either to defend or attack. You can dress it up with as much pseudo philosophical bumpf as you like but it's fighting. I doubt the originators of karate etc used little phrases to soften the reasons for learning killer strikes nor used martial arts as a moral code. Their moral values and beliefs came from their religions not their martial arts, for them the two may have been interchangable but it's a relatively modern concept that martial arts should provide moral training as well. 

Don't think that because you have a written code that you are better than anyone else, the most sporting, generous and upright people I know happen to be MMA practitioners and fighters so don't sneer at us, it goes against your 'respect' stuff somewhat doesn't it?


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## dortiz (Nov 22, 2009)

You could go even further and really look at some of those founders and their histories. That would really make you wonder about those tenants.
I say leave it at that, Its nice to recite them and strive to be better people.
So lets all keep trying. Thats about all we can do. 

Dave O.


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## dancingalone (Nov 22, 2009)

> but it's a relatively modern concept that martial arts should provide moral training as well.



Well said, Tez.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Well said, Tez.


 

Ta!

I think all this moralising is due to the way we look at things nowadays. We can't admit that we enjoy such things as weapons, fighting and combat sports, learning to fight doesn't mean we enjoy going around beating people up but it's unfashionable to be what is called over here 'hard', we have to be seen to be soft and happy clappy hence the emphasis on martial arts morality 'training' so that people think it's something other than it is. 
By having all these moral 'rules' we are saying 'look, we aren't really learning to kill and maim people, it's to make us into better people, really, honestly', we're telling people to ignore all the physical parts, they are just a side issue and concentrate on 'respecting each other' etc etc.
The thing is though, good people will respect others, will try to lead good lives and a moral life, we don't need brainwashing at martial arts classes, reciting endless cliches. 
We need to stand up and say, yes we are martial artists and make no apologies for it. We are proud of what we do and will not make excuses for learning to fight. We don't need mealy mouthed pseudo religious high priests negating our pride in what we do by spouting endless lists of behaviours at us some of which are spurious.
If I feel I have a vice I don't lie down and roll around in shame, I do my damndest to get rid of it. I have no feeling of contempt for others who may have vices either, not my place to judge. To judge is setting myself above others, hardly humble. As for the giving and receiving of gifts when in doubt, claptrap. It's meaningless as is 'promoting the spirit of mutual concessions', sounds like a trade agreement.

Here's the one rule that everyone should live by, martial artist or not
"treat everyone as you would be treated" short, simple to the point, read,mark and inwardly digest then get on with the rest of your life. More training, less talk.


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 24, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> > I'm discussing the topic.  Just because I disagree with your perspective doesn't mean I'm stepping over the line or being rude.  Please re-read everything I wrote before coming to any conclusion along those lines.
> 
> 
> I  never mentioned rudeness on anyone's part.
> ...


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 24, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> > You do know that UFC is actually a trade name for a competition and not a martial art?
> 
> 
> That's exactly my point.....without the philosophical aspect of TKD to guide its practitioners in the correct application of the art......you risk devolving into something resembling the aforementioned.
> ...


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 24, 2009)

dortiz said:


> You could go even further and really look at some of those founders and their histories. That would really make you wonder about those tenants.
> I say leave it at that, Its nice to recite them and strive to be better people.
> So lets all keep trying. Thats about all we can do.
> 
> Dave O.



To which founders and histories do you refer?  The stormy beginnings of TKD and the intrigue contained therein?  In the end, however, it really doesn't matter.  

In humankind, enlightenment generally emanates from degeneracy.  Otherwise, there is nothing by which to compare.


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 24, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Ta!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > Ta!
> ...


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## dancingalone (Nov 24, 2009)

"I  never mentioned rudeness on anyone's part."

It sure seems like that was the direction you were moving in with your remark.

""Fortune cookie sayings"?  Is that the extent of what you receive in training?  Or is that what you relegate the basic tenets of TKD to?"

Most schools spend perhaps a hour per practice session, yes?  Seems an awfully short time to pack in ma instruction AND moral building too.  In that context, 'fortune cookie' probably isn't too far from the truth.

"I didn't."

You did.  You wrote a whole paragraph about the US Constitution and the Founders.

"I made no comparison between them in the context of sports.  But is there even the same availability of guiding principles within other athletic activities as there tends to be as in martial arts?  "

There may be.  It's still apples and oranges since you're talking about professional endeavors where the goal is to win a sporting contest.   


"I'm not talking about singing Barney songs in a day care setting, but more to the point......I didn't realize that TKD in general was no long an effective fighting system in the first place.  Is that your position?  "

I think it's obvious that TKD is not an effective fighting system for many, particular if they attend one of those schools that are more about building character and rewarding good sportsmanship than about effective self-defense.

"You don't support the notion of homogeneity, yet you desire a "universal return" of TKD to an effective fighting system.  You have quite a conundrum there."

It's actually not an inconsistent statement.  TKD is foremost a fighting system.  If you don't train to defend yourself (dare I say it?) or FIGHT, then you're not doing taekwondo at all.  You're dancing in a gi.  It's the various curricula across schools that I support diversity in.


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## miguksaram (Nov 24, 2009)

chundokwan said:
			
		

> Would that be the group more grounded in heavy character building through universally accepted tenets, or the group more focused on "sport"?


I am confused on this question.  Tenets of Taekwondo are taught regardless if the school is "traditional" oriented or "sport" oriented.  So why would you think that those who persue sport aspect would not be grounded in the heavy character building?  If anything I would thing they would be more grounded in character building because they tend to face an aspect in training that many "traditional" schools are scared to teach, which is failure.  

In sports you don't always win and from your loses you figure out what type of person you are.  In the tradtional setting it seems everyone is a winner regardless if they deserve to be or not.


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## granfire (Nov 24, 2009)

I think there is a lot of confusion. The Warrior's code was really not established until the Warrior class had virtually no job anymore but lits and lots of time.


Rules always indicate that the reality is vastly different.

However, back to hate and the benefits of having and cultivating it.

Frankly, I don't think there is one. And that epiphany is quiet old.

Like Obsession does one no good, love taken to extreme, hate hampers the course of action.

Hannibal crossed the Alps because of hate. Not much came from it, other than a bunch of dead people, including Hannibal.

Hate is a destructive force. Nothing more, nothing less. The proverb 'revenge is a dish best served cold' did not evolve by chance.

The tenets don't exclude or admonish hate, but acknowledge it's impact, thus Self Control.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 24, 2009)

i disagree

hate is GOOD

hate motivates

hate reminds

hate feeds

hate is your friend


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## granfire (Nov 24, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i disagree
> 
> hate is GOOD
> 
> ...




hate eats you up and destroys you. 

As it stands dislike is much healthier, and does not prevent me from dishing it out should need and opportunity arise.


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## miguksaram (Nov 24, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i disagree
> 
> hate is GOOD
> 
> ...


So, by your phrase here it is good to be racist since they pretty much feed on hate.  Hate motivates them and feeds them.


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2009)

I've always like supreme indifference myself.


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## Gorilla (Nov 24, 2009)

One thing is for certain "Hate" destroys those who fall prey to its seduction!!!  Hates surely is a fraud!!!  Hate has fueled the Nazis and the KKK and many more.  Those who practice in the end destroy themselves!!! It is a fitting end!!!!

Those who hate are easily defeated by those with intelligence!!!! History has proven this to be true time and again!!!


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## Twin Fist (Nov 24, 2009)

sorry, this statement is .................. really not smart



miguksaram said:


> So, by your phrase here it is good to be racist since they pretty much feed on hate.  Hate motivates them and feeds them.




hate for a GOOD reason, not a stupid one.

hating someone JUST for the color of thier skin? thats stupid

I hate criminals. HATE them, thats a good hate.


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 25, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> "I  never mentioned rudeness on anyone's part."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 25, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> chungdokwan123 said:
> 
> 
> > > No, what is out is people thinking they are better than the rest of us simply because they do a martial art with catchphrases.
> ...


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 25, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> > I am confused on this question.  Tenets of Taekwondo are taught regardless if the school is "traditional" oriented or "sport" oriented.  So why would you think that those who persue sport aspect would not be grounded in the heavy character building?
> 
> 
> That's not my position.  I asked a rhetorical question.  Yet, would you deny that there are some schools that do not really focus on the character question?
> ...


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## Tez3 (Nov 25, 2009)

Chungdokwan, your English is idiosyncratic to say the least, makes it harder to understand.

I don't think hate is necessarily bad, a hatred of poverty could lead a person to do great good. A hatred of tyranny can bring it down. There are many more examples.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 25, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I've always like supreme indifference myself.


 
Then would dislike intensely be OK 

Oh and just for the sake of clarification, not to Tez but to the thread

hate
&#8211;verb
1. to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.  
2. to be unwilling; dislike: I hate to do it.  
3. to feel intense dislike, or extreme aversion or hostility. 
&#8211;noun 
4. intense dislike; extreme aversion or hostility. 
5. the object of extreme aversion or hostility. 


Would it be OK to dislike or hate doing a form improperly?


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 26, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Chungdokwan, your English is idiosyncratic to say the least, makes it harder to understand.
> 
> I don't think hate is necessarily bad, a hatred of poverty could lead a person to do great good. A hatred of tyranny can bring it down. There are many more examples.



I could attempt to be a bit more colloquial......yet I fear I would just end up right back at the point from which I began.

My writing style, indeed much of my speech is heavily influenced by writings from the 1700s.  Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Joseph Story, John Locke, and Montesquieu are among the many from that era who inspire me in my study of Constitutional law, and given that said endeavor has been a lifelong passion, I would assume that much of the flowery and somewhat poetic vocabulary of that time has crept into my own communications.  My apologies.

I stand at the brink of digression concerning the topic at hand.  I find myself in what appears to be a singular minority regarding my thoughts on the importance of our tenets.  

I do realize that much of the use of the word "hate" is nothing other than simple semantics.  I would not attempt to suggest that I myself am not guilty of it, but that in addition to religious beliefs, I have these simple tenets to expunge it as well as to attempt to prevent its emanation.  I simply feel that they are an important component of my TKD and they can strengthen the character of others.......which I see as a dire need given the state of society today.

Perhaps I am simply the oddball here?


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## Cirdan (Nov 26, 2009)

chungdokwan, how do you build moral building into the instruction? I would expect a good MA club to be a place where the members respect each other, but what more than this can you do? Reciting some text for a few minutes won`t change anything, people will still be who they chose to be for better or worse.


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> I could attempt to be a bit more colloquial......yet I fear I would just end up right back at the point from which I began.
> 
> My writing style, indeed much of my speech is heavily influenced by writings from the 1700s. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Joseph Story, John Locke, and Montesquieu are among the many from that era who inspire me in my study of Constitutional law, and given that said endeavor has been a lifelong passion, I would assume that much of the flowery and somewhat poetic vocabulary of that time has crept into my own communications. My apologies.
> 
> ...


 

When I was studying at university, an ancient place of learning whch was founded in February 1495 giving it plenty of time to consider the subject of writing, I was taught that one should write clearly and concisely, with passion if one wished but always with clarity.
 I'm afraid you may think you are writing poetically and even 'flowery' but sadly you are not. You are making a very common mistake of using 'big words' to explain something that should be writen plainly and therefore without ambiguity. Your writing far from being pleasant is conceited and open to misunderstandings. Some sentences make no sense whatsoever I'm afraid.

You may be copying 18th century writers but they were only writing as was common then complete with, to them, slang words and phrases in the style of the times. If they were writing today they would write as we do. If _you_ did we'd understand you.

_"I stand at the brink of digression concerning the topic at hand. I find myself in what appears to be a singular minority regarding my thoughts on the importance of our tenets_"

I'm sorry, this sentence is nonsense and shows great conceit on your part, a competent wordsmith will phrase it using good English and grammar so that it doesn't end up sounding as if from a character in a Restoration comedy.
I love the English language, it has words that can thrill, impassion, inspire and explain. I would recommend to you John Aubrey's 'Brief Lives' and having an open mind.


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## girlbug2 (Nov 26, 2009)

That number 9 on Marginal's list: does it refer to attempts at bribery?


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> That number 9 on Marginal's list: does it refer to attempts at bribery?


 
I don't understand 1 or 2 either and 5 is just odd.


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## Cirdan (Nov 27, 2009)

Imagine joining say, a gun club and when you arrive at the shooting range the instructor recites a text on how to build a better world trough markmanship. :lol:

Or in ice skating, mountaineering or simply chopping wood. Why not? Those activities can be used as much for self improvement as MA, can they not?


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> > When I was studying at university, an ancient place of learning whch was founded in February 1495 giving it plenty of time to consider the subject of writing, I was taught that one should write clearly and concisely, with passion if one wished but always with clarity.
> 
> 
> Perhaps the alleged lack of clarity is but a lack of comprehension skill on behalf of the reader?  Frankly, I'm a bit taken aback in that I've never received such a complaint before.  Perhaps I should start crafting my responses in German, which is my second language, in that I cannot seem to express myself competently in English.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps the alleged lack of clarity is but a lack of comprehension skill on behalf of the reader? Frankly, I'm a bit taken aback in that I've never received such a complaint before. Perhaps I should start crafting my responses in German, which is my second language, in that I cannot seem to express myself competently in English.
> ...


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> chungdokwan123 said:
> 
> 
> > > Throwing your dummy in the corner eh? Another conceit.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > chungdokwan123 said:
> ...


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## granfire (Nov 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> chungdokwan123 said:
> 
> 
> > Tez3 said:
> ...


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## Cirdan (Nov 27, 2009)

chungdokwan123 said:


> You seem to be the lone complainant here.


 
Well your posts do come across as the somewhat pompous writings of an induvidual with an inflated opinion of himself. Just didn`t see the need to chime in on this since I prefer to stick to the topic at hand. However you might concider listening to Tez` words, your tone can really make you hard to take serious.


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## girlbug2 (Nov 27, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Imagine joining say, a gun club and when you arrive at the shooting range the instructor recites a text on how to build a better world trough markmanship. :lol:
> 
> ?


 
Well they do call Colt 45s "peacemakers". You may be on to something!


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 28, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> > Well your posts do come across as the somewhat pompous writings of an induvidual with an inflated opinion of himself.
> 
> 
> Friend, I looked back at my posts and truly saw nothing that could be construed as pompous.  If you will check back, I think you'll find that I've asked as many questions as I've offered opinions.  I haven't suggested that I can do anything better than anyone else.  I haven't challenged other opinions as being incorrect.....at most I've merely offered a differing opinion.  If you feel otherwise, I do apologize to you.  I would offer to improve myself in this regard, however, I simply do not see where I could have offended anyone.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2009)

A deranged castigator, well there's an almost Shakespearan insult for you lol!

If someone will tell me how to put that under my avatar and username I shall certainly use it!

I will add however my castigating is purely verbal, none of that hanky panky thank you.

Chungdokwan, in your posts and replies to people, not just to me you have been dismissive, sarcastic and at times verging on insulting. You bring up MMA then claim not to be talking about it, being very sharp with me at one poiont. Don't bring something up if not willing to discuss it. You have been quite pompous about others posts too so it's interesting when you take offence at your posts being criticised. 
I'll allow that you may not have realised your sharpness at some points, that you are new to here and maybe haven't taken our measure yet. Stick around and you'll find that fitting in even when you are as eccentric as I am is easy.


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## dortiz (Nov 28, 2009)

Sometimes threads just need to go away.


Dave O.


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## Cirdan (Nov 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> A deranged castigator, well there's an almost Shakespearan insult for you lol!
> 
> If someone will tell me how to put that under my avatar and username I shall certainly use it!


 
You should, I certainly would. It is high praise indeed.

And about the eccentrics here, it is part of why I stick around. Just another word for interesting.


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## terryl965 (Nov 28, 2009)

What a great way of saying I love you!!!!!


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 29, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> > Chungdokwan, in your posts and replies to people, not just to me you have been dismissive, sarcastic and at times verging on insulting.
> 
> 
> I'm going to give you an example of how you obviously do not thoroughly read, and/or comprehend what I have posted.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2009)

So much for letting me have the last word rofl! :lfao:

The UFC comment was a snide comment about MMA yes, then you chose to remind me that this thread was about TKD, somewhat sharply actually but you brought the subject up and showed a lack of knowledge about MMA, you confirmed this in a later post. 

It's impossible to criticise incorrectly! No, it wasn't the broccoli thing. You posted first so I'm allowed to reply. 

_I'm allowed to be eccentric, I'm English._

You've made some big assumptions about, not just me, but the people here. You came across as being superior in your beliefs and anyone who didn't agree was somewhat lower down the food chain than yourself. The subject is whether one should include moralistic teachings into martial arts, most of think that we have been brought up properly, have our own moral values and therefore don't appreciate having mottos, phrases etc introduced into our training as if we were ignorant savages targeted by missionaries. 

You have your opinion we have ours, discourse doesn't have to be acrimonious (see, I can do the big word thing too!) but you came in waving your 'tenets' as if you were at war against the unbelievers. And you were surprised we didn't fall at your feet? My, even G-d and Constitution were on your side, amusing. The conceit slips in and out of your words like a snake around prey.


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## granfire (Nov 29, 2009)

all over sudden I am craving popcorn...


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## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2009)

granfire said:


> all over sudden I am craving popcorn...


 
 I do my best to entertain as well as inform roflmao! :ultracool

We've had threads before on religion inpinging into martial arts and the general opinion seems to be that there's no place for it in training. We live our lives according to our beliefs whether they involve a religion or not and we don't leave our morals and ethics at the dojo door so for instructors to start preaching, moralising or generally trying to 'convert' us it is a tad insulting if not actually condescending. 

Those of us who train children have all had at some time the parent that comes in wanting us to teach their child/ren 'discipline', good manners etc but that's not our role. These things have to come from our parents and guardians. Martial arts does teach many things, you have to learn self discipline to be any good, you have to learn patience, control and courtesy to be able to advance through the grades but frankly I don't believe you are taught this, you absorb it and learn it yourself, always the best way. If you have good well rounded instructors who behave correctly the students will follow their example, no amount of catchy phrases are going to replace a good example.

In the McDojos they will take your money and point to all the posters exhorting discpline, good manners etc but they are meaningless, it's the money that talks. A good instructor doesn't have to lecture you about being 'a good person', he's there to teach you martial arts and if he shows a good example in the way he treats people and in his own training, you will learn how far the virtues of self discipline, patience etc will take you. 


I'm going to go back to the subject of MMA as it was brought up, not by me I'll add. It's mostly thought that fighters/competitiors can't possible have any of the virtues that are considered essential by TMA practicitioners but in my experience this is hugely wrong. Knowing that you can cause great physical harm with your skills forces you to control those skills, to be disciplined when training and with your training partners. some may see the fights as mere brawls but on closer inspection which I invite you to take, you will find they are a mental challenge as well as a physical one. The sheer amount of control in an MMA fight would surprise you. Yes there are bloody noses, black eyes but there is also a huge amount of respect going on and at the end of the fight great cameraderie. I have seen great acts of sportsmanship as well as courtesy taking place in MMA. These are not things you learn from words plastering the training walls. This you learn by example and personal interaction with your training partners. It's also not unique to MMA, far from it, though this type of interaction, respect and control may however may be unique to martial arts overall.


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> > So much for letting me have the last word rofl!
> 
> 
> That's up and coming.....I wanted to try one last time to amplify my intentions to you.  I hold out the hope that it will not end up a superfluous effort.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2009)

This maybe my last post, it's been raining non stop for three days now and much of where I am is flooded so I may have to stop posting and go start building an ark! That's only partly a joke! Though I may be called into work.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/8385679.stm

To bring up the UFC and/or MMA then tell someone else it's off subject is a bit unfair. The UFC is a business not a martial art so it's irrelevant to a conversation such as this.

I see what you mean and understand *now* it was a mistype but couldn't have pointed it out not knowing it was such.

The problem with the internet as has been pointed out many, many times is that we have to take at face value what is written, we can't see the wry smile as words are uttered or hear the laughter in the voice. We can't see from the writer's face how he means his words to be taken so when sentences such as yours are read they are all we had to go on. The intent may have been far from pompous, you may be far from pompous but the words were and that's all we have on here. Face to face I would suggest the conversation would have taken a completely different turn.

I think when people suggest moral teachings in martial arts many of us are somewhat insulted. It smacks of big brother, it sets backs up. It much as if someone has come to your door telling you they 'have the way' and yours isn't good enough. You wouldn't expect to have such mottos up in other sports clubs or facilities so why martial arts?


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## miguksaram (Nov 30, 2009)

granfire said:


> all over sudden I am craving popcorn...


I'm craving steel wool for my eyes to stop me from continuing to read this.


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I'm craving steel wool for my eyes to stop me from continuing to read this.


 
You know you love it really!!


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## miguksaram (Nov 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You know you love it really!!


It's like watching a midget drag queen spanking a half naked clown...you know you don't want to look, but darn if you can't help but keep staring.


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## granfire (Nov 30, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> It's like watching a midget drag queen spanking a half naked clown...you know you don't want to look, but darn if you can't help but keep staring.



Now THAT officially made my day! :lfao::lfao::lfao:


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> A deranged castigator, well there's an almost Shakespearan insult for you lol!
> 
> If someone will tell me how to put that under my avatar and username I shall certainly use it!
> 
> ...


 
A foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.... Now THATS a Shakespearian insult 

Now could someone pass the popcorn opcorn: and the steel wool...  WHAT THE HECK is going on with that Midget


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2009)

Aaah and they say Americans don't have a sense of humour! 


chungdokwan and I thank you for your kind attention. We do our humble best to amuse and entertain! :boing2:


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## StudentCarl (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm more of a rookie in TKD than in life, so my ideas are simple:

Hate and anger are fuel, much like adrenaline.

They can be good because they give me energy and keep me from noticing injuries until later.

They can be bad because they cloud my judgment, thinking, and skills.

I think hate has it's own Um and Yang, and thus has an unavoidable place for all of us.  I try to keep such emotions in balance, as I would not want to be ruled by hate or the opposite--apathy.

I hope that my training will help me improve my judgment, thinking and skills so I can stay balanced (which includes tenets I think) in situations that provoke my hate, anger, or other disruptive emotions.


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## Tez3 (Dec 1, 2009)

StudentCarl said:


> I'm more of a rookie in TKD than in life, so my ideas are simple:
> 
> Hate and anger are fuel, much like adrenaline.
> 
> ...


 
I think it's interesting that you put apathy as the opposite of hate, I think that may well be true.
 I had a friend who used to train kickboxing and karate with me who I introduced to MMA, he fought professional rules for a while and when he retired saying he had become a much calmer person due to his aggression being given an outlet, through the hard training more than the fighting. 
I don't think you should expect too much from learning martial arts as far as your emotional life is concerned but I would say if you are taught properly you will learn the control needed to not flare up and start fights.


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## miguksaram (Dec 1, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Aaah and they say Americans don't have a sense of humour!


 
Not only do we have a sense of humor but some of us actually get Monty Python, Benny Hill and Dave Allen at Large humor.


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## Tez3 (Dec 1, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Not only do we have a sense of humor but some of us actually get Monty Python, Benny Hill and Dave Allen at Large humor.


 

Benny Hill sadly is the lowest sort lol. 

I'd recommend Blackadder as well especially the ones set in the First World War, if you haven't seen the ending it's quite a shock. 

If you are going to have tenets up on your walls, a sense of humour must come up pretty high on the list. If you can laugh at yourself you will never be too full of pride, if you can laugh at fate too you're much more likely to go through life as a pleasant person to know and train with.
In my job a sense of humour is a must and is recognised as such by our employers, it will come up time and time again throughout training and is even mentioned on the job interview.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 1, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'd recommend Blackadder as well especially the ones set in the First World War, if you haven't seen the ending it's quite a shock.


 
 Blackadder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







Tez3 said:


> If you are going to have tenets up on your walls, a sense of humour must come up pretty high on the list. If you can laugh at yourself you will never be too full of pride, if you can laugh at fate too you're much more likely to go through life as a pleasant person to know and train with.


 
Truth is truth, To the end of reckoning. 

and 

There's the humour of it. 

Sorry, I appear to be stuck in Shakespeare


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## StudentCarl (Dec 1, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> If you are going to have tenets up on your walls, a sense of humour must come up pretty high on the list. If you can laugh at yourself you will never be too full of pride, if you can laugh at fate too you're much more likely to go through life as a pleasant person to know and train with.


 
Yes, I think sense of humor is an important part of not taking yourself or your life too seriously.  I'd say life experience is the best teacher of this lesson, yet there are those who don't learn to use perspective to manage their emotions.  They don't learn.  Practice is a great teacher only if you learn from it.  Role models and coaches often make all the difference.

Along with sense of humor, an open mind would be high on my list.


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## miguksaram (Dec 1, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Benny Hill sadly is the lowest sort lol.
> 
> I'd recommend Blackadder as well especially the ones set in the First World War, if you haven't seen the ending it's quite a shock.


 
Do not insult my demi-god Benny Hill, he will rise from the grave and smite you. ha.haha...I actually enjoy Blackadder, The Young Ones and Mr. Bean as well.


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## KELLYG (Dec 1, 2009)

I do not think that tenants have any thing to do with hate.  I do however think that their existence is important.   In a larger type class setting you may have people of all races, religions, and socio economic back grounds in one place at one time, with their main purpose > learning how to fight.  I do think that most parents do try to teach their children how to behave and have manners and to be respectful, but the success rate differers from parent to parent.  If tenants are on the walls then it is a subtle reminder of how to behave in that particular environment.  Can they be a bit cheesy yes, are they still important yes, are they a religious  no.


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## Gorilla (Dec 1, 2009)

I was at the Tuff-N-UFF Amateur MMA competition in Las Vegas.  I saw an example of "Hate" that disturbed me.  One of the fighter had the "SS" lightning bolts Tattooed on his chest, "SKINHEAD" Tattooed  on his Stomach and "WHITEPOWER" Tattooed on his back.  Thank God he lost!!!  If I was running that competition I would have pulled him from the card!  This type of Hate should not be tolerated!


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## Tez3 (Dec 1, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> I was at the Tuff-N-UFF Amateur MMA competition in Las Vegas. I saw an example of "Hate" that disturbed me. One of the fighter had the "SS" lightning bolts Tattooed on his chest, "SKINHEAD" Tattooed on his Stomach and "WHITEPOWER" Tattooed on his back. Thank God he lost!!! If I was running that competition I would have pulled him from the card! This type of Hate should not be tolerated!


 

We had a guy with similiar tattoes want to fight on one of our shows, he was told no and to go away in short sharp jerky movements. 

'Tuff-N-Nuff'? what sort of name for a fight night is that? It's hardly going to take forward the acceptance of MMA as a serious sport. It's a naff as hell.


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## Gorilla (Dec 2, 2009)

I don't like the name either.  It is a good show and a well attended event. Wanderlei Silva was @ this one and Dana White was at the one in October.  The name has become somewhat of a brand for them don't see it changing.  I like you would like to see MMA move toward more professionalism and get away from the tough guy brawler image.  

What is "NAFF"?


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## Tez3 (Dec 2, 2009)

Naff is 'uncool, tacky or unfashionable' there is another meaning where you can tell someone to naff off which is a mild way of saying FO so you aren't swearing. To us the 'Tuff n Nuff' sounds like 'toys r us' or 'spuds r us', cheap sounding as well as soft, believe it or not. To us it's a very funny name, it's something you'd call a kids cartoon character


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## Gorilla (Dec 2, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Naff is 'uncool, tacky or unfashionable' there is another meaning where you can tell someone to naff off which is a mild way of saying FO so you aren't swearing. To us the 'Tuff n Nuff' sounds like 'toys r us' or 'spuds r us', cheap sounding as well as soft, believe it or not. To us it's a very funny name, it's something you'd call a kids cartoon character



The translation gets lost over the Atlantic. I would agree cheap but not soft.  It is more like are you tough enough to fight in the ring not really soft.  It is fascinating to see how are common language is perceived/used so differently.  We dislike it for different reasons.


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## Tez3 (Dec 2, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> The translation gets lost over the Atlantic. I would agree cheap but not soft. It is more like are you tough enough to fight in the ring not really soft. It is fascinating to see how are common language is perceived/used so differently. We dislike it for different reasons.


 
Anything abbreviated with 'N' in it instead of 'and' is going to be laughed at here I'm afraid. To us it's very camp and the last thing fighters want to be seen as. I don't like the overly brutal names either though so am with you there.


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