# You afraid to die?



## Jenna

A pointed and personal but very simple question for all my soft-outer hard-inner Martial Talk thinkers 

Just looking for a paragraph of inspiration I never quite seem to get what I want picking random books..... but anyway I found this and it is an exhortation to perform daily meditation on INEVITABLE death..... Hmmm and well that's the Hagakure for ya and yes right here Ch 11 if yous do not believe me and I know a very few of us would claim to walk a warriors path to that extent or anything like it but I think it is an interesting thought beyond its face value because maybe it is an exhortation NOT to be morose but because thinking of our death can shake us awake and make us realise what we are LIVING for.

So.... if you have ever performed that meditation or had a passing thought for your own death.... Q: are you afraid to die, afraid of the WAY you might die, afraid of the what after?

Thank you for sharing 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

I think I can admit I am afraid to die and afraid of dying itself. And there is also a sadness too for not having done what I know I could do and for not having given what I know I could give. But that is all the more reason to plough on while it lasts and not make an easy target of myself. And maybe that is NOT the sound of inevitability after all? or maybe that bright light at the end of the tunnel is just the light of an oncoming train.... who knows!! LOL 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## terryl965

Well I have never meditated about my death, but I'm differently not affaid of dieing in fact when GOD calls upon me I will be reading and waiting for him.
Terry


----------



## Jenna

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Well I have never meditated about my death, but I'm differently not affaid of dieing in fact when GOD calls upon me I will be reading and waiting for him.
> Terry


Hey Terry 
True faith as yours is a wonderfully supportive thing to have. Can I ask how you would feel if you were to be called by God particularly about having to leave your loved ones behind? Thank you for sharing this.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## terryl965

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Terry
> True faith as yours is a wonderfully supportive thing to have. Can I ask how you would feel if you were to be called by God particularly about having to leave your loved ones behind? Thank you for sharing this.
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
I would hope my loved ones would understand, when GOD calls he needs us in the kingdom that he provides for  us, it is not my place to question the intent and my love ones will understand this. Sorrow will be there for a brief moment but then glory would fill my heart for the family will see the true meaning of GOD intentions.
Terry


----------



## Jenna

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I would hope my loved ones would understand, when GOD calls he needs us in the kingdom that he provides for us, it is not my place to question the intent and my love ones will understand this. Sorrow will be there for a brief moment but then glory would fill my heart for the family will see the true meaning of GOD intentions.
> Terry


:asian: Thank you for sharing this Terry and do you think they really WOULD understand? It takes a great deal to understand such an incomprehensible thing as having a loved one taken away

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Lisa

I am just afraid of leaving things undone.  I have two children that I have a responsibility to and the selfish part of me wants to be around to see them grow up and to share their joys and sorrows in life.  Dying anytime soon would be like not seeing the rest of a really good film.  I just want to be around to see the ending.


----------



## mantis

Jenna said:
			
		

> A pointed and personal but very simple question for all my soft-outer hard-inner Martial Talk thinkers
> 
> Just looking for a paragraph of inspiration I never quite seem to get what I want picking random books..... but anyway I found this and it is an exhortation to perform daily meditation on INEVITABLE death..... Hmmm and well that's the Hagakure for ya and yes right here Ch 11 if yous do not believe me and I know a very few of us would claim to walk a warriors path to that extent or anything like it but I think it is an interesting thought beyond its face value because maybe it is an exhortation NOT to be morose but because thinking of our death can shake us awake and make us realise what we are LIVING for.
> 
> So.... if you have ever performed that meditation or had a passing thought for your own death.... Q: are you afraid to die, afraid of the WAY you might die, afraid of the what after?
> 
> Thank you for sharing
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



I'm not afraid to die, im afraid of what i would be doing when it happens or the last thing i did before it happens.


----------



## Kreth

Thanks for reminding me. I need to delete some porn...

:uhyeah:


----------



## Phadrus00

Jenna,

A thought provoking question to be sure!  *smile*  Am I afraid to die?  No, but I will be bummed when it happens.  Am I afraid of the method of my death?  Yes and my reasons are very immediate which I will explain.

I will be "bummed" on that final day because there will be no more "tomorrow".  You see I love my life.  I love cooking, training, working, talking, touching, loving, the whole she-bang as it were.  My last day will mean that there will not be another day to experience and grow.  It will be nice if there is a whole other level on the other side but I'm not banking on it.  I am milking every last moment out of this life and in the end I want to be able to say something akin to a line from Gattaca: "I didn't save anything for the return trip".  

Now to the method of my death, therein lies a more pressing issue.  You see last year I was diagnosed with Diabetes, a disease that has touched my family many times, most recently by claiming the life of one of my cousins who was all of about 25 at the time.  It's an insidious disease, chronic in nature and nasty in presentation and progression if left unmanaged.  It brought my mortality to my immediate attention and it is never far from my thoughts.  I have the specters of blindness and amputation singing backup to my old friend death and they are not the kind of groupies you want to party with.

I am not afraid of death, I just want to hit it at high speed with all my faculties and not burden the friends and family that make my life so rich and rewarding.  I think we all here can think of people in our lives that we would be willing to die for.  For me there are several for whom I would lay down my life for without hesitation.  What my condition has forced me to realize is that the tough decisions I have to make in my everyday life such as what to eat, to go to the gym, to check my sugar levels are things that I do because I want to Live for those very same people and Live Well.

Perhaps I can offer this new interpretation of a classic line:

"Death is easy, Living Well is Hard..."

Rob


----------



## stone_dragone

Being here in Iraq I am faced daily with the very real truth that my physical end is just one mortar attack away; for my brothers on the line it is just one roadside bomb away; for my brothers in the air, it is just one RPG away.

I have the benefit of knowing this and living like its going to be tomorrow.  Yes, I miss my family and hope that when the day comes for me to shake loose this earthly coil that it will be with them near and my son grown with children of his own.  I, however, am also not afraid of death or dying because I know that it is an answer to my Lord's call and it is better to be absent in the body and present with the Lord.  I know that until He is ready, not one hair on my head will see harm and when He is ready that nothing I do can stop it from happening.  I know that He has given me my family and will care fore them much better than I ever could.

All that being said, I firmly believe that the Father has an "Idiot Clause"...go ahead and jump off of a building to see if he will save you, you just enacted the idot clause.

Trust God, but lock your car.

My two cents...


----------



## Flying Crane

I have thought about this from time to time.  On a philosophical level, no I am not afraid to die.  I don't WANT to die, I am not TRYING to die, but I don't think I am afraid of it.  When my time comes, then I guess I will see if I can face it with calm and dignity.

I think most people aren't really afraid of being dead, but perhaps are afraid of the act of dying.  It's quite a dramatic change to undergo.  It can be painful, and it can be slow.  Here's to hoping it's quick and painless!


----------



## Ray

I'm not afraid to die; not looking forward to it; I plan on resisting, kicking and screaming every step of the way though.


----------



## Bigshadow

I don't believe I am afraid of death.  I don't feel as though I have to "do things" before I die.  I am content with what I have experienced.  However, it breaks my heart to think of the sorrow my loved ones will feel when that time comes.  At the very least I hope that I remain long enough to see my son become an adult so that I know my job of preparing him for the world is finished, although, I prefer to meet death peacefully as an old man with my loved ones around. Lastly, I hope I can leave my loved ones with plenty of fond memories to last them the rest of their lives.


----------



## fireman00

I'm not really afraid of dying, I'm more afraid of how I'll die (being a vol firefighter I've seen all KINDS of bad deaths ) and the impact it will have on my wife.


----------



## Nomad

Personally, I don't see the point in being afraid to die.  No matter how much you want to, you won't be able to prevent it.  Nor am I particularly afraid of how I will die, since once it happens, that won't really matter.

I *hope* it's not through my own stupidity, and try daily to remove that potential cause, but we all have those moments...

In the end (pun intended), I guess it's true that you need to plan for the future but live each day as if it's your last.  Don't hold grudges, especially against those you love, and let them _know _you love them at every opportunity.  You never know when your last opportunity to tell them might come.


----------



## tshadowchaser

I am afraid of the many nasty long pain filled ways I might die but I accept the fact that it will happen someday and will face it as bravely as i can.  Actualy i am interested to see if any thing comes after but Im not in any rush to find out.


----------



## green meanie

_"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you cross over the great divide._

_Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse turns the wise one to fools and robs the spirit of its vision._

_​_​_When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home." -__Chief Tecumseh_

:asian:​


----------



## Ceicei

green meanie said:
			
		

> _ -__Chief Tecumseh_
> 
> :asian:​



So who is Chief Tecumseh?  Very intriguing quote....

- Ceicei


----------



## Jenna

Lisa said:
			
		

> I am just afraid of leaving things undone. I have two children that I have a responsibility to and the selfish part of me wants to be around to see them grow up and to share their joys and sorrows in life. Dying anytime soon would be like not seeing the rest of a really good film. I just want to be around to see the ending.


Thanks Lisa  I understand this completely. And I'd guess that even if you knew your two little ones had absolutely everything they needed and wished for you would still want to be the one to provide it for them? Is this selfishness? I do not believe it is because selfishness implies something inherently wrong whereas this is a love as plain as the back of your hand. Thank you for sharing

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

mantis said:
			
		

> I'm not afraid to die, im afraid of what i would be doing when it happens or the last thing i did before it happens.


Hey mister mantis  to have no fear of death is quite a thing. When you say you are afraid of what you would be doing but not of death itself does that imply you are a believer in the concepts of heaven and hell? Are you worried about getting "caught out"? I am sorry if I am misinterpreting what you have said. Thank you for sharing 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Kreth said:
			
		

> Thanks for reminding me. I need to delete some porn...
> 
> :uhyeah:


Hey mister Kreth I can tell you have thought about this already  Yeah reading some of your posts it is clear you are one of the masterdebaters on these forums! LOL, well you started it   and there is me thinking that a cool musician would have groupies to satisfy their lustful whims? No?  Man the touring scene just ain't what it is cracked up to be. I would say thanks for sharing but.... pfffft TOO much, ha!

Go easy now leave some for L8r, LOL


----------



## Jenna

Phadrus00 said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> 
> A thought provoking question to be sure! *smile* Am I afraid to die? No, but I will be bummed when it happens. Am I afraid of the method of my death? Yes and my reasons are very immediate which I will explain.
> 
> I will be "bummed" on that final day because there will be no more "tomorrow". You see I love my life. I love cooking, training, working, talking, touching, loving, the whole she-bang as it were. My last day will mean that there will not be another day to experience and grow. It will be nice if there is a whole other level on the other side but I'm not banking on it. I am milking every last moment out of this life and in the end I want to be able to say something akin to a line from Gattaca: "I didn't save anything for the return trip".
> 
> Now to the method of my death, therein lies a more pressing issue. You see last year I was diagnosed with Diabetes, a disease that has touched my family many times, most recently by claiming the life of one of my cousins who was all of about 25 at the time. It's an insidious disease, chronic in nature and nasty in presentation and progression if left unmanaged. It brought my mortality to my immediate attention and it is never far from my thoughts. I have the specters of blindness and amputation singing backup to my old friend death and they are not the kind of groupies you want to party with.
> 
> I am not afraid of death, I just want to hit it at high speed with all my faculties and not burden the friends and family that make my life so rich and rewarding. I think we all here can think of people in our lives that we would be willing to die for. For me there are several for whom I would lay down my life for without hesitation. What my condition has forced me to realize is that the tough decisions I have to make in my everyday life such as what to eat, to go to the gym, to check my sugar levels are things that I do because I want to Live for those very same people and Live Well.
> 
> Perhaps I can offer this new interpretation of a classic line:
> 
> "Death is easy, Living Well is Hard..."
> 
> Rob


Hey Rob  thank you for stopping by and I have to say I am amazed at your lack of fear over dying itself. But I doubt it is bravado from what I have read of yours and so I gotta hand it to you!!   Yes diabetes wow... my dad has this and much fuss over keeping the sugar below 7 right? And yet he cannot help himself with a big gobful of Ben and Jerrys for which I am his worst enemy! so I understand maybe on some very distant plateau what you are saying. Be strong though, keep your mind open to the notion of regeneration. Belief is an unstoppable thing I am convinced of it. 

For me it is a fear of drowning or suffocation having been hospitalized many times with asthma but these things  are not to dwell on morbidly these are the things that Tsunetomo was imploring the warrior caste to think on to charge and envigorate their lives. What greater impetus to live our lives than the acknowledgement that they are finite.  No more procrastination, no more daydreaming no more communicating in riddles with loved ones and friends.... maybe

I understand your "high speed" sentiment and giving your life for another and while this I think is the highest sacrifice I would URGE you never to willingly let yourself be a victim of your affliction. As martial artists we are fighters not victims. Fight it and BELIEVE you will win and  NOTHING is impossible.

And hey if any well meaning soul gives you chocolate as a gift  and you just know your doc will get all shouty at you for eating it well go on now post it to me  LOL  

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

stone_dragone said:
			
		

> Being here in Iraq I am faced daily with the very real truth that my physical end is just one mortar attack away; for my brothers on the line it is just one roadside bomb away; for my brothers in the air, it is just one RPG away.
> 
> I have the benefit of knowing this and living like its going to be tomorrow. Yes, I miss my family and hope that when the day comes for me to shake loose this earthly coil that it will be with them near and my son grown with children of his own. I, however, am also not afraid of death or dying because I know that it is an answer to my Lord's call and it is better to be absent in the body and present with the Lord. I know that until He is ready, not one hair on my head will see harm and when He is ready that nothing I do can stop it from happening. I know that He has given me my family and will care fore them much better than I ever could.
> 
> All that being said, I firmly believe that the Father has an "Idiot Clause"...go ahead and jump off of a building to see if he will save you, you just enacted the idot clause.
> 
> Trust God, but lock your car.
> 
> My two cents...


Hey there stone_dragone sir 
Wow you are in Iraq right now?? Man I want to take a second to say I know you are just doing your job and your duty but THANK YOU for being there. Phew that is really something I can not say or begin to imagine! I could only ignorantly guess that the extreme position you are in is a touchpaper to your faith and belief and it is good and positive for you to have reconciliation between your faith and your situation. Thank you for sharing this and the Idiot Clause is a keeper for sure! And for the very little it is worth I wish you strength and hope that your morale and that of your unit is high and most of all safe home to you all.

And not that it will mean much but I can look it up but what is your rank if it is ok for me to ask?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I have thought about this from time to time. On a philosophical level, no I am not afraid to die. I don't WANT to die, I am not TRYING to die, but I don't think I am afraid of it. When my time comes, then I guess I will see if I can face it with calm and dignity.
> 
> I think most people aren't really afraid of being dead, but perhaps are afraid of the act of dying. It's quite a dramatic change to undergo. It can be painful, and it can be slow. Here's to hoping it's quick and painless!


Hey Michael 
I completely agree with the sentiment you are relaying here and  facing death with calm and dignity is certainly something to aspire to. I am certain you have been in dangerous situations before I wonder how you held it together maybe as some sort of a benchmark reaction for the curtain call?

Do you see yourself with the "famous last words" or maybe literally a few droll lines of gallows humour falling from your lips? Is that the sort of dignity you mean?  I don' t know I cannot imagine....

But yeah quick and painless would be best and I am sure I can think of some pretty nice ways to go... ahem  Thanks Michael for sharing.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## mantis

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey mister mantis  to have no fear of death is quite a thing. When you say you are afraid of what you would be doing but not of death itself does that imply you are a believer in the concepts of heaven and hell? Are you worried about getting "caught out"? I am sorry if I am misinterpreting what you have said. Thank you for sharing
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



Regardless.  Would you want your life to end when you are doing something good and honorable, or doing something stupid?


----------



## Jenna

mantis said:
			
		

> Regardless. Would you want your life to end when you are doing something good and honorable, or doing something stupid?


Hey mister mantis 
Yes I understand what you mean. Personally if I ever get around to doing something good or honourable I will be in a better position to compare 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## mantis

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey mister mantis
> Yes I understand what you mean. Personally if I ever get around to doing something good or honourable I will be in a better position to compare
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



I'm sure you already do


----------



## Jenna

Ray said:
			
		

> I'm not afraid to die; not looking forward to it; I plan on resisting, kicking and screaming every step of the way though.


Hey there Ray  
I like your attitude I really do but.... what happens if ya don't see it coming? Like those old Chaplin or Stooges films how do you kick and scream and resist an upright piano on the head?? Thanks for this!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:
			
		

> A pointed and personal but very simple question for all my soft-outer hard-inner Martial Talk thinkers



Good Idea. 



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> Just looking for a paragraph of inspiration I never quite seem to get what I want picking random books..... but anyway I found this and it is an exhortation to perform daily meditation on INEVITABLE death..... Hmmm and well that's the Hagakure for ya and yes right here Ch 11 if yous do not believe me and I know a very few of us would claim to walk a warriors path to that extent or anything like it but I think it is an interesting thought beyond its face value because maybe it is an exhortation NOT to be morose but because thinking of our death can shake us awake and make us realise what we are LIVING for.



This is true for many. 



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> So.... if you have ever performed that meditation or had a passing thought for your own death.... Q: are you afraid to die, afraid of the WAY you might die, afraid of the what after?
> 
> Thank you for sharing
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



I have thought about this. :asian:



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> Q: are you afraid to die,



No. 



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> afraid of the WAY you might die,



I had read a story in High School about a person who as alive and yet could not move or communicate. 

This used to bother me.

Then I went through a long period in HS where I watch my Mom die of Cancer. I thought about death a lot then. I realized there is no real nice way to be dead. 

Although recently, with some older relatives and memory issues and also stroke issues and the loss of mobility has come back into my mind again. 

I am debating with myself right now what is worse. 

Loosing Memory and not knowing? 

Loosing Physical Capability to move and ability to communicate, but to still have the capaibility to think and comprehend. 

I am debating and thinking that it is the state of being aware but unable to move and or communicate with others. 



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> afraid of the what after?



No, I have lived my life the best I can. A small joke I have with a friend of mine: 

Friend: In Heaven ready to go to earth, Hey look there is a short line over there?  

Me: What is it? 

Friend: It says Job. 

Me: Hey who needs a carear anyways lets go for the Job. 

*** Welcome to the Life of JOB.  *** 

 No disrespect to religions or Christianity, just a small joke between friends.


----------



## Jenna

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I don't believe I am afraid of death. I don't feel as though I have to "do things" before I die. I am content with what I have experienced. However, it breaks my heart to think of the sorrow my loved ones will feel when that time comes. At the very least I hope that I remain long enough to see my son become an adult so that I know my job of preparing him for the world is finished, although, I prefer to meet death peacefully as an old man with my loved ones around. Lastly, I hope I can leave my loved ones with plenty of fond memories to last them the rest of their lives.


Hey David  
Yes I agree the pain of the ones left behind is the hardest thing to get a grip on and so how much worse for you thinking of your son. But life does go on somehow and I do not think it is a bad thing to think on our deaths as a reminder perhaps not to treat our loved ones and friends as unfairly or even plain badly as we sometimes do  for we may fall out the one day and have no one to make up the next. 

I think you are spot on though regarding the perpetuity of memories these never leave us and even though they fade or blur they are still imprinted in us like old files on your PC you might think you deleted them from out of the recycle bin but they are never truly gone until the disk is wiped  Thank you for sharing this!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

fireman00 said:
			
		

> I'm not really afraid of dying, I'm more afraid of how I'll die (being a vol firefighter I've seen all KINDS of bad deaths ) and the impact it will have on my wife.


Hey mister fireman00 
Man! So you are another one out there risking your neck for all of us. That makes you something special and I think it is just WAY too easy to overlook guys like you out there with no greater thought than preserving life. This is amazing and thank you for making me think about what you are doing. 

I would love to not be afraid of dying but find that an incredibly difficult one to grasp. I wonder how you have managed to do that yourself? But yes there are many gruesome and horrible ways to die between accidents criminality and disease so much to choose from huh? But this I would wish to make us think on the here and the now and stop wasting time and words....

I wish God speed you home to your wife and the old pilots' adage is true about any landing you walk away from... I wonder do pilots really have that belief or  with all their technology and reliability is it just lipservice? As you are in extreme situations I guess quite a lot do you have a similar "any landing..." viewpoint? Thank you!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Good Idea.
> 
> 
> 
> This is true for many.
> 
> 
> 
> I have thought about this. :asian:
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> 
> 
> I had read a story in High School about a person who as alive and yet could not move or communicate.
> 
> This used to bother me.
> 
> Then I went through a long period in HS where I watch my Mom die of Cancer. I thought about death a lot then. I realized there is no real nice way to be dead.
> 
> Although recently, with some older relatives and memory issues and also stroke issues and the loss of mobility has come back into my mind again.
> 
> I am debating with myself right now what is worse.
> 
> Loosing Memory and not knowing?
> 
> Loosing Physical Capability to move and ability to communicate, but to still have the capaibility to think and comprehend.
> 
> I am debating and thinking that it is the state of being aware but unable to move and or communicate with others.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I have lived my life the best I can. A small joke I have with a friend of mine:
> 
> Friend: In Heaven ready to go to earth, Hey look there is a short line over there?
> 
> Me: What is it?
> 
> Friend: It says Job.
> 
> Me: Hey who needs a carear anyways lets go for the Job.
> 
> *** Welcome to the Life of JOB. ***
> 
> No disrespect to religions or Christianity, just a small joke between friends.


Hey big Rich  Thank you for this. Yes I too watched a very close and dear friend die from cancer days after his 23rd birthday he was just over six months from diagnosis to his last breath. This is a disease I despise so I can relate to the horror you must have gone through with your mother. But yet you came through you are still here and so the conclusion is time is a healer after we are gone for those we leave is this how you see it?

There is really NO pleasant state of vegetation mental or physical I believe this would be the hell for many people of seeing a face but not being able to reach out or of recognising a voice but not knowing who was speaking to you. Nope I will take a lightning bolt or better yet dies peacefully in sleep at the age of 120, LOL.

Actually is there anything to be said for living fast and dying young? You strike me as someone who might have a view....

Oh and one other pertinent question Rich, what happens to you personally when you go?

Thank you again for sharing 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Nomad said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't see the point in being afraid to die. No matter how much you want to, you won't be able to prevent it. Nor am I particularly afraid of how I will die, since once it happens, that won't really matter.
> 
> I *hope* it's not through my own stupidity, and try daily to remove that potential cause, but we all have those moments...
> 
> In the end (pun intended), I guess it's true that you need to plan for the future but live each day as if it's your last. Don't hold grudges, especially against those you love, and let them _know _you love them at every opportunity. You never know when your last opportunity to tell them might come.


Hey Nomad 
You are quite correct fear serves no purpose whether in a fight or when facing death. Fear however has a way of breaking any fences you might put up to keep it under control don' t you think?

Ahh, live each day as if it is your last. I love this sentiment and I wish I could abide by it would I be here doing what I am doing all the mundane stuff or would I be off exploring the world exploring myself seeking knowledge and enlightenment and fun and thrill that would be great but like most of us I do not do these things or live my life as if tomorrow I die. And the reason?  I do not believe I will die tomorrow. I almost WISH for a crash believe me and god forgive me for it but I have sat on a plane and wished forit to come down and to survive it because aircrash survivors must have a calmness and a sense of no fear that few of us will ever have. Odd maybe but well....

But yes the live each day as though it were your last is a nice thought but maybe not workable for most of us.

oh btw are you a nomad with a direction or are you wandering aimless like Kane in Kung Fu?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I am afraid of the many nasty long pain filled ways I might die but I accept the fact that it will happen someday and will face it as bravely as i can. Actualy i am interested to see if any thing comes after but Im not in any rush to find out.


Hey tshadowchaser 
So you so not know what comes after? What do you believe? Maybe soul and spirit really is nothing more than electrical sparks across neural synapses and once that stops a blank maybe and a ceasing to exist? Or maybe you will reincarnate and maybe you are already a reincarnation who knows. What do you think?

btw, what does your username mean please?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

green meanie said:
			
		

> _"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you cross over the great divide._
> 
> _Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse turns the wise one to fools and robs the spirit of its vision._
> 
> 
> _When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home." -__Chief Tecumseh_
> 
> :asian:​


Hey mister green meanie 
This is a very thoughtful quote thank you. Is this an otherwise random thought or have you chosen this as a reflection of how YOU live YOUR life and face YOUR death? Will you "sing your death song and die like a hero going home"? Because those you leave behind will they be grateful for a heroic death song? And you will be too overcome with sadness at leaving them for acting like a hero. Is this right??  Me? it will inevitably be more a whimper and a gasp than a rebel yell.

Still this is a provoking and meaningful quote and I would not wish to take that away from you. Thank you sincerely for sharing.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## lonecoyote

My father taught me how to die. Brave, kind, last three months after his bypasses, amputations, and kidney removal were some of the best of my life. He became fearless, somehow manifested a fearless heart, let all the love he had show right on his sleeve. I used to wheel him out to the seawall and we would talk for hours, also stopping and talking to folks, strangers who would stop and were somehow drawn to him. His death was slow and painful, but also like the most noble movie you've ever seen or book you've ever read. Amazing and transcendant. Not too many drugs, he bore the pain as an obligation, not too much sadness, a little crying here and there mostly with a hug. When it was time to go, he fought like hell, not because he was afraid but because he said that is what you're supposed to do.


----------



## green meanie

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey mister green meanie
> This is a very thoughtful quote thank you. Is this an otherwise random thought or have you chosen this as a reflection of how YOU live YOUR life and face YOUR death? Will you "sing your death song and die like a hero going home"? Because those you leave behind will they be grateful for a heroic death song? And you will be too overcome with sadness at leaving them for acting like a hero. Is this right?? Me? it will inevitably be more a whimper and a gasp than a rebel yell.
> 
> Still this is a provoking and meaningful quote and I would not wish to take that away from you. Thank you sincerely for sharing.
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
The quote seemed very much in line with the question asked. If anything is gained from it I hope it's the acceptance that for better or worse this is the life we've been given and we should try to make the most of it. Sometimes we're dealt a crappy hand but what the hell, play it anyway -'cause playing and losing is still better than not getting to play at all. Regards.
:asian:


----------



## green meanie

Here's another. Enjoy:

"_Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"_

_




_


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey big Rich  Thank you for this. Yes I too watched a very close and dear friend die from cancer days after his 23rd birthday he was just over six months from diagnosis to his last breath. This is a disease I despise so I can relate to the horror you must have gone through with your mother. But yet you came through you are still here and so the conclusion is time is a healer after we are gone for those we leave is this how you see it?



Time is a healer for those left behind. It is longer for some than for others. My mom was diagnosed and had surgery and the could not identify it and closed it backup. The Sloan-Kettering Research facilty in New York ended up getting the data and determining it was Adrenil Cancer and they wanted her out there in a couple of weeks. She lived in lots of pain and suffereing for just over three years of treatments and procedures. 

My Brother was younger than I and I think it took him longer than me to recover as he was upset when 7 years later My dad wanted to re-marry. 



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> There is really NO pleasant state of vegetation mental or physical I believe this would be the hell for many people of seeing a face but not being able to reach out or of recognising a voice but not knowing who was speaking to you. Nope I will take a lightning bolt or better yet dies peacefully in sleep at the age of 120, LOL.



Dying at an old age would be nice if I know who I am and can get around still. 



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> Actually is there anything to be said for living fast and dying young? You strike me as someone who might have a view....



Given my stupidity from my younger years I think I am living on borrowed time now.  Which may explain why I am into fast cars and driving them as such. I have a cruiser bike but thinking about the Kawasaki Ninja ZX, only I have to pay off some bills first.   



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> Oh and one other pertinent question Rich, what happens to you personally when you go?
> 
> Thank you again for sharing
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



Well since I have not burst into flames when I walk onto holy ground, I assume my Zen like beliefs will allow for further contemplation on a higher plane of existence. I said Zen Like, as I walk my own path, but do not find a religion that fits. Maybe have a beer or two with old friends, and discuss the meaning of existence. Maybe spend some more time re-incarnated back on earth not truly sure. 

Although I would like to have an old fashioned Cremation with a huge fire and roaring logs. Think Norse or Celt like. 

This way my atoms are returned into the enviroment to be used again, and not sealed in the ground in cement.  (* Just my thoughts and as I said this is my path and thoughts not trying to say it is right or wrong or if other should follow or not, just making a statement. *)


----------



## Jenna

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> My father taught me how to die. Brave, kind, last three months after his bypasses, amputations, and kidney removal were some of the best of my life. He became fearless, somehow manifested a fearless heart, let all the love he had show right on his sleeve. I used to wheel him out to the seawall and we would talk for hours, also stopping and talking to folks, strangers who would stop and were somehow drawn to him. His death was slow and painful, but also like the most noble movie you've ever seen or book you've ever read. Amazing and transcendant. Not too many drugs, he bore the pain as an obligation, not too much sadness, a little crying here and there mostly with a hug. When it was time to go, he fought like hell, not because he was afraid but because he said that is what you're supposed to do.


lonecoyote those are such poignant and inspiring thoughts I can add nothing  your father must have been a wonderful and serene gentleman and I am certain badly missed. Thank you sincerely for sharing 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## crushing

I'm not really that afraid of my own death, but I am a little concerned that in the confusion of such a life ending event, and that because around 110 people die a minute, that someone else's God might accidently take me home with her/him/it.


----------



## Flying Crane

Jenna said:
			
		

> For me it is a fear of drowning or suffocation having been hospitalized many times with asthma
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
As a scuba diver, I can relate to this fear.  I am terrified of drowning.  While it would only last for a few short minutes, I believe those minutes would be increasingly agonizing and panic stricken, until you mercifully black out.  

I love to dive so I keep doing it, but I am always very very conscious of the fact that I am visiting a world in which I do not truly belong.  Under such circumstances, one must tread with care, and understand the possible ramifications.


----------



## Flying Crane

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Michael
> I am certain you have been in dangerous situations before I wonder how you held it together maybe as some sort of a benchmark reaction for the curtain call?
> 
> Do you see yourself with the "famous last words" or maybe literally a few droll lines of gallows humour falling from your lips? Is that the sort of dignity you mean? I don' t know I cannot imagine....
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
Well, if I found myself on the gallows, you can bet yer *** I'm gonna have a few lines of gallows humor.  What more could I do?


----------



## Jenna

green meanie said:
			
		

> The quote seemed very much in line with the question asked. If anything is gained from it I hope it's the acceptance that for better or worse this is the life we've been given and we should try to make the most of it. Sometimes we're dealt a crappy hand but what the hell, play it anyway -'cause playing and losing is still better than not getting to play at all. Regards.
> :asian:


Oh yes it most certainly was in line with the question asked. But it is not maybe your personal answer to the question. But I do not want to push or be nosey so thank you again for that quote which is both relevant and useful.

With regard to playing that "crappy hand" and losing well it depends on how metaphorical you are being in your definition of the game.... in our daily game we play along no matter but I would be lying to you if I said I did not on occasion consider my hand so bad that forfeitting the game was certainly an option a bit like jumping before you are pushed and I would disagree with  you and say there is no fun in a game of certain defeat. But it is a testament to cowardice that here I am having a civil conversation with you sir. Maybe these thoughts are the same for us all who am I to say.

Regards to you too

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

crushing said:
			
		

> I'm not really that afraid of my own death, but I am a little concerned that in the confusion of such a life ending event, and that because around 110 people die a minute, that someone else's God might accidently take me home with her/him/it.


Hey Crushing  That is such a cool answer  You have a glib tongue but your humour redeems you!! Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Time is a healer for those left behind. It is longer for some than for others. My mom was diagnosed and had surgery and the could not identify it and closed it backup. The Sloan-Kettering Research facilty in New York ended up getting the data and determining it was Adrenil Cancer and they wanted her out there in a couple of weeks. She lived in lots of pain and suffereing for just over three years of treatments and procedures.
> 
> My Brother was younger than I and I think it took him longer than me to recover as he was upset when 7 years later My dad wanted to re-marry.
> 
> 
> 
> Dying at an old age would be nice if I know who I am and can get around still.
> 
> 
> 
> Given my stupidity from my younger years I think I am living on borrowed time now.  Which may explain why I am into fast cars and driving them as such. I have a cruiser bike but thinking about the Kawasaki Ninja ZX, only I have to pay off some bills first.
> 
> 
> 
> Well since I have not burst into flames when I walk onto holy ground, I assume my Zen like beliefs will allow for further contemplation on a higher plane of existence. I said Zen Like, as I walk my own path, but do not find a religion that fits. Maybe have a beer or two with old friends, and discuss the meaning of existence. Maybe spend some more time re-incarnated back on earth not truly sure.
> 
> Although I would like to have an old fashioned Cremation with a huge fire and roaring logs. Think Norse or Celt like.
> 
> This way my atoms are returned into the enviroment to be used again, and not sealed in the ground in cement. (* Just my thoughts and as I said this is my path and thoughts not trying to say it is right or wrong or if other should follow or not, just making a statement. *)


Hey Rich  Thank you again sir. Your poor mom had it rough and there is no fairness to a hard life that is ended amidst such pain. Yes I understand treatments and procedures and have seen the effects upon effects upon effects of chemo treatment and drugs to counteract imbalances caused by other drugs what a mess but for what it is worth my thoughts are with you thinking of your mother and thank you sincerely for sharing this.

And nothing wrong with fast cars there is freedom and liberation in speed but yes it can also be eternal liberation! And that Kawasaki Ninja will take you to eternal liberation faster than most. I know where you are coming from though I never feel so alive as when my back is pressed hard into the seat from pulling a few Gs and maybe that is a reflection of a lack of something more meaningful in my life that does not sound so far fetched to me.... and you? What is it you seek in flirting with such dangers?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> As a scuba diver, I can relate to this fear. I am terrified of drowning. While it would only last for a few short minutes, I believe those minutes would be increasingly agonizing and panic stricken, until you mercifully black out.
> 
> I love to dive so I keep doing it, but I am always very very conscious of the fact that I am visiting a world in which I do not truly belong. Under such circumstances, one must tread with care, and understand the possible ramifications.


hey Michael  wow SCUBA?? Man is there anything you can NOT do?? ha! Yes I agree I could never go diving for that exact reason. And I almost watch with a phobia those free divers I think they are called or anyway the guys and gals who dive deep deep deep with no equipment and then sit at the bottom holding their breath that is SO incredible and terrifying too even thinking about it. 

I can tell you the sensation of not being able to pull in a breath is terrifying a real "say your prayers girl" moment and there really is a magnetic sense of inevitability drawing you into it that is SO hard to fight no joke it is like I cannot fight this I have no weapons. This is how I know I will be so scared of dying having danced around its edges for many years. But still for many, these things give a perspective on the positive things in their lives and focus down attentions to what is REALLY important and to where the priorities should be and so there is light from darkness and it is all you truly intelligent people who can see this.

Thank you again
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Rich  Thank you again sir. Your poor mom had it rough and there is no fairness to a hard life that is ended amidst such pain. Yes I understand treatments and procedures and have seen the effects upon effects upon effects of chemo treatment and drugs to counteract imbalances caused by other drugs what a mess but for what it is worth my thoughts are with you thinking of your mother and thank you sincerely for sharing this.
> 
> And nothing wrong with fast cars there is freedom and liberation in speed but yes it can also be eternal liberation! And that Kawasaki Ninja will take you to eternal liberation faster than most. I know where you are coming from though I never feel so alive as when my back is pressed hard into the seat from pulling a few Gs and maybe that is a reflection of a lack of something more meaningful in my life that does not sound so far fetched to me.... and you? What is it you seek in flirting with such dangers?
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



What is it you seek in flirting with such dangers?

A test of my skills and myself. 

I also was an adrenaline Junky for a while when I was younger and much more stupid than I am today. Putting myself into spots to see if I could get out, and also enjoying the rush. So I do not think the speed is an issue of the rush as it can be, but having been there before, I do not think that is it. 

It may have to do with Control. Can I keep it under control can I push it the limit of my skills and of the capabilities fo the vehicle.  There are bikes and Cars out that I cannot dive to the max, as I do not have access to clsoed tracks for that. My access to clsoed tracks has max speed limits of 100 MPH which is good for most days. Take a car out and run a few laps, and I feel much better.   

You?


----------



## HKphooey

I have always tried to live each day as if it was my last (or the loved ones around me).  I tell my wife I love her each morning before my ride to work and before we go to sleep.  It has never lost any meaning for me.  I want to always know I was able to tell her I loved her one last time.  

I have tried to make sure I have done my best to help my friends and sometimes even strangers.  I truly believe there is a better place above and all my friends and family will always be in my heart.  

Knowing I was able to bring a smile to someone's face, a laugh to someone crying, or a shoulder to someone in need; helps me accept anything life or death brings my way.

Thanks for starting the thread.  Makes you stop and think.


----------



## BrandiJo

im 19 i dont think about dieing...im 10ft tall and bullet proof! 


umm i dont think im scared of dieing i mean i dunno belive im gonna go to heaven so whats so bad about that?


----------



## Nomad

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Nomad
> You are quite correct fear serves no purpose whether in a fight or when facing death. Fear however has a way of breaking any fences you might put up to keep it under control don' t you think?


 
Only if you let it.  I'm not talking about putting up a wall to deny it, I'm talking about giving it some serious contemplation and coming to grips with the fact that it really could happen at any time, and you may have no say in the matter.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> Ahh, live each day as if it is your last. I love this sentiment and I wish I could abide by it would I be here doing what I am doing all the mundane stuff or would I be off exploring the world exploring myself seeking knowledge and enlightenment and fun and thrill that would be great but like most of us I do not do these things or live my life as if tomorrow I die. And the reason? I do not believe I will die tomorrow. I almost WISH for a crash believe me and god forgive me for it but I have sat on a plane and wished forit to come down and to survive it because aircrash survivors must have a calmness and a sense of no fear that few of us will ever have. Odd maybe but well....
> 
> But yes the live each day as though it were your last is a nice thought but maybe not workable for most of us.


 
The mundane (work, boredom, traffic, tv, etc.) does have a way of intruding on what's really important, doesn't it?  I guess what I mean is to try not to have any major regrets about something you have been meaning to do/say/etc.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> oh btw are you a nomad with a direction or are you wandering aimless like Kane in Kung Fu?


 
LOL... great question!  I actually took the nickname Nomad from my days in university, when it was my pen-name for a humorous and off-color campus publication.  At the time, I was definitely wandering, sometimes aimlessly, sometimes with a goal.  I hope that in the years since, I've found some worthy paths (martial and otherwise) that have helped to define my "direction" in life.


----------



## FearlessFreep

I'm a Christian abd believe in heaven and an afterlife and such...I'm not afraid to die for myself but I know if I died it would make life very difficult on a practical matter (to say nothing of emotional) for my wife and kids...I don't fear my death, I fear failing my family


----------



## Kacey

I am not afraid to die, but I am afraid of dying in certain ways.  Two of my grandparents died slowly, of age related illnesses - one of emphysema and Parkinson's, and one after 10 years of slow decline following a series of strokes.  One lived to 94, was sick for 3 days (pnuemonia), and died in her sleep - which sounds pretty good.  The remaining grandparent is still alive at 96, but is deaf, nearly blind, incontinent... he is existing, not living, as his body slowly gives out, although his mind is still good.  Any kind of long, lingering illness, especially with physical debilitation, is a thought that scares me.  It's not the death, it's the method of dying that I am worried about.

From my father's bridge club (where, at 71, he's one of the young'uns):  "When it comes my time to die, I want to go peacefully, in my sleep... not screaming in fear like his passengers."


----------



## Makalakumu

I am afraid to die.  My fear of death puts my seat belt around my lap.  My fear of death makes me put a helmet on when I ski or ride a bike.  My fear of death makes me put my PFD on when I am canoeing.

I'm afraid of the regret that everyone in my life would feel.  I'm afraid of the "thought" of the pain they would feel.  My hope is that when I die, I will be old enough that people will expect it and the parting will not be so bitter.  

I think that everyone, at some level, is afraid to die.  It's a natural instinct that preserves life.  Would our species have lasted this long without this inborn fear?  Probably not.  And I think that humans know this, instinctually.  Think about how we view people who don't fear death?Nuts.  Crackpots.  Crazies.  Psychos.  You name it.  

Is it possible to override this instinct?  Yes.  But even then, people are still afraid and only their conditioning allows them to overcome that fear.


----------



## Makalakumu

From a spiritual perspective, I'm afraid of death because I don't believe in God.  I do not believe in Heaven or Hell or Souls.  I think that when we die our consciousness melts into disorder.  The energy that enervated my being is conserved and transformed into other forms to be used by other life forms in the physical web.  It is not taken and preserved outside of our physical universe and it no longer contains any information about me.  

When I die, I will be gone...forever.  Entropy will take the unique circumstance that is me and undo it.  As it will undo every single thing that I do in this universe, from my genetic line, to anything I leave behind, Time will erase everything.

With that in mind, one can see that I am in no hurry to die.  Every single conscious moment is unique and precious and wasting a single one of this is utter foolishness.  Heaven needs to happen in the "hear and now" or it will never happen at all, IMO.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Regardless of my spiritual beliefs, I do not fear death.  Observation has shown, time and time again, that nothing really begins or ends.  My life has been a continuous spectrum of experience, one thing moving softly (well, sometimes harshly) into the next.  I have seen nothing that supports the perception that all ends with death; therefor, it holds no fear for me.  It is simply another move to another place.

Lao-tzu wrote:
"_Once you've found the mother,_
_thereby you know the child._
_Once you know the child,_
_thereby you know the mother,_
_not perishing though the body die._"
--Tao Te Ching 52, Thomas Cleary translation


----------



## Ceicei

I do not fear death for I know that all must die sometime.  It is my hope that when I do, my death will be meaningful and have purpose.  I do wonder at times, what legacy have I created?  I see my legacy already with my family, but what of my friends and others I associate? :idunno:  

I suppose that is all that matters--my family and loved ones will have me within their hearts.  Whether it extends to others with similar thoughts, I guess I won't know while I'm alive.

- Ceicei


----------



## green meanie

BrandiJo said:
			
		

> im 19 i dont think about dieing...im 10ft tall and bullet proof!
> 
> 
> umm i dont think im scared of dieing i mean i dunno belive im gonna go to heaven so whats so bad about that?


 
That's the spirit girl! Hang on to that for as long as you can. :asian:


----------



## Hand Sword

no.


----------



## Makalakumu

Wouldn't any safety precautions taken be rooted in a deep seated fear of death?

From a scientific POV, an instinctual "necrophobia" in homo sapians is well accepted.  In fact, a great many studies have been done to show how humans can overcome this fear.  Anyone who faces death regularly on the job, must have some sort of anti-death conditioning or they wouldn't be able to do their jobs.  

Even then, the fear of death doesn't go away, it is just buried by an overwhelming conditioned impulse.  A good example of this are the Samurai, IMO.  Another good example is the parent who rushes into a burning building to get their children.  Their fear of death is momentarily buried by another overwhelming impulse.  When all is said and done though, that fear will come back with a vengeance...and that can lead to PTSD.

I don't mean to be telling everyone that has answered "No" that they are probably wrong in their assessment.  Maybe you really don't fear death.  I don't know you.  However, I have a good experiment that will test your conclusion about yourself.  

Right now, in whatever situation you find yourself, imagine that you are holding a pistol in your right hand.  You put one bullet in the carriage and spin it.  Now imagine putting that pistol to your head and pulling the trigger.  Can you do it?  Put a couple more bullets in the carriage and spin it.  Can you pull the trigger?

I couldn't and to be honest with everyone, it is because I fear death.


----------



## Phadrus00

mantis said:
			
		

> Regardless. Would you want your life to end when you are doing something good and honorable, or doing something stupid?


 
Ummm how about something VERY Naughty!  *evil grin*

Rob


----------



## mantis

Phadrus00 said:
			
		

> Ummm how about something VERY Naughty!  *evil grin*
> 
> Rob


that would be a shame man
at least give me time to smoke a cig afterwards so it doesnt look like it killed me!


----------



## Phadrus00

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Rob  thank you for stopping by and I have to say I am amazed at your lack of fear over dying itself. But I doubt it is bravado from what I have read of yours and so I gotta hand it to you!!


 
My pleasure Jenna and you are much too kind.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> Yes diabetes wow... my dad has this and much fuss over keeping the sugar below 7 right? And yet he cannot help himself with a big gobful of Ben and Jerrys for which I am his worst enemy! so I understand maybe on some very distant plateau what you are saying. Be strong though, keep your mind open to the notion of regeneration. Belief is an unstoppable thing I am convinced of it.


 
It is an excellent point.  I believe we shape our own reality in very tangible ways.  I will think regenerative thoughts!  *smile*




			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> For me it is a fear of drowning or suffocation having been hospitalized many times with asthma but these things are not to dwell on morbidly these are the things that Tsunetomo was imploring the warrior caste to think on to charge and envigorate their lives. What greater impetus to live our lives than the acknowledgement that they are finite. No more procrastination, no more daydreaming no more communicating in riddles with loved ones and friends.... maybe


 
Indeed!  Loving Life, living without regret, embracing our passions and the blessings in our life.  What better testament to our unaviodably finite existance.  *smile*



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> I understand your "high speed" sentiment and giving your life for another and while this I think is the highest sacrifice I would URGE you never to willingly let yourself be a victim of your affliction. As martial artists we are fighters not victims. Fight it and BELIEVE you will win and NOTHING is impossible.


 
*smile*  No retreat, no surrender Jenna.  Way too much to live for.  Fighting this with everything I have, and I'm still learning new stuff!  *grin*



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> And hey if any well meaning soul gives you chocolate as a gift and you just know your doc will get all shouty at you for eating it well go on now post it to me LOL
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
I will send it Post Haste...Pun intended.. *smile*

Rob


----------



## Phadrus00

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> My father taught me how to die. Brave, kind, last three months after his bypasses, amputations, and kidney removal were some of the best of my life. He became fearless, somehow manifested a fearless heart, let all the love he had show right on his sleeve. I used to wheel him out to the seawall and we would talk for hours, also stopping and talking to folks, strangers who would stop and were somehow drawn to him. His death was slow and painful, but also like the most noble movie you've ever seen or book you've ever read. Amazing and transcendant. Not too many drugs, he bore the pain as an obligation, not too much sadness, a little crying here and there mostly with a hug. When it was time to go, he fought like hell, not because he was afraid but because he said that is what you're supposed to do.


 
He sounds like a helluva guy.  You must be very proud of him!  I'm so sorry for your loss but your story of his last days is inspirational.  

Thank you!

Rob


----------



## crushing

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Wouldn't any safety precautions taken be rooted in a deep seated fear of death?


 
Very interesting and good points.

When considering safety precautions we should consider that some may fear a great loss of quality of life more than death.


----------



## Makalakumu

crushing said:
			
		

> Very interesting and good points.
> 
> When considering safety precautions we should consider that some may fear a great loss of quality of life more than death.


 
I would say that the two are inseparable.  And, in fact, the former often leads into the latter because it is so overwhelming and the separation is not made by our psyche.  

BTW - I've noticed that not many would pull that trigger...

Here is another test.  You make a fool of yourself at work.  Your boss hands you a knife and tells you to commit seppuku.  Do you do it?

I can predict this answer.  Absolutely no one would.  However, it should be noted that the Samurai did do this.  And even they often did not committ the act without a great amount of fear.  Most often, they were assisted in the act with an unseen swift blade to the neck.

This is just another manifestation of the deep seated fear of death that is instinctual in all humans.


----------



## Nomad

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I am afraid to die. My fear of death puts my seat belt around my lap. My fear of death makes me put a helmet on when I ski or ride a bike. My fear of death makes me put my PFD on when I am canoeing.


 
I think you're mistaking a lack of fear of death for a desire for it.  This is a huge leap, IMO.  Doing stupid things that put your life at risk is not defying death... it's just doing stupid things.

Everyone will die.  Death could come at any time... whether driving through traffic on the way home tonight, jumping into the pool, or even sitting here typing on my computer.  

Going out of your way to flirt with death (like in your russian roulette argument) is a sign of a mentally unbalanced person and is very likely to end your life prematurely.  

I have a lot of things to live for.  My wife, my daughters, a whole bunch of places that I would like to see and things I want to do.  Therefore I will take reasonable precautions (seat belts, etc) to attempt to prevent injuries and prolong my life.  But I am not *afraid *of death.  

If you don't understand the difference, then I'm not sure what else I can tell you.


----------



## Makalakumu

Nomad said:
			
		

> I think you're mistaking a lack of fear of death for a desire for it. This is a huge leap, IMO. Doing stupid things that put your life at risk is not defying death... it's just doing stupid things.
> 
> Everyone will die. Death could come at any time... whether driving through traffic on the way home tonight, jumping into the pool, or even sitting here typing on my computer.
> 
> Going out of your way to flirt with death (like in your russian roulette argument) is a sign of a mentally unbalanced person and is very likely to end your life prematurely.
> 
> I have a lot of things to live for. My wife, my daughters, a whole bunch of places that I would like to see and things I want to do. Therefore I will take reasonable precautions (seat belts, etc) to attempt to prevent injuries and prolong my life. But I am not *afraid *of death.
> 
> If you don't understand the difference, then I'm not sure what else I can tell you.


 
For discussion purposes, I think that the separation between "fearing death and "going out of the way to avoid death" is very relevant this threads question.  IMO, it goes right to the heart of the matter.  I believe that the two are linked.  The inherit fear of death is the prime motivation for efforts to avoid it.  With that in mind, I would say that your characterization of someone who would go out their way to flirt with death is right on.  Going further, I would say that a person like that is truly not afraid of death.  And that person would be a rare individual indeed.

If you think there is a difference, I would be greatly interested in reading your rationale for their separation.


----------



## Nomad

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> For discussion purposes, I think that the separation between "fearing death and "going out of the way to avoid death" is very relevant this threads question. IMO, it goes right to the heart of the matter. I believe that the two are linked. The inherit fear of death is the prime motivation for efforts to avoid it. With that in mind, I would say that your characterization of someone who would go out their way to flirt with death is right on. Going further, I would say that a person like that is truly not afraid of death. And that person would be a rare individual indeed.


 
I'd have to respectfully disagree with you here.  I think there are many reasons and motivations to avoid death beyond fear.  Not wanting to upset or leave your family who depend on you for financial support, guidance, love, and a whole host of other things is certainly near the top of my list.  Having other things you would like to do or accomplish is also up there.

There are many fates worse than death.  Ending up in a vegetative state with my family forced see and support me (a al Terry Schiavo) would be one of them, and I have gone so far as to put a clause in my will (and have talked to likely decision makers in my family) telling them to pull the friggin' plug already if I'm ever in this position.

Otherwise losing my mind (dementia) or being in huge amounts of pain for a prolonged period (as in some cancers) would be other fates worse than death, and IMO are far more worthy of fear.  Still, I won't lose sleep over these (hopefully) unlikely possibilities... it makes a lot more sense to just get on with living instead.


----------



## Bigshadow

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This is just another manifestation of the deep seated fear of death that is instinctual in all humans.


My opinion is...  I don't want to die, but I really don't fear it.  However, I do not want to hasten it either.  Don't confuse not fearing death with wanting death.

I believe to not fear death means having the peaceful knowledge that things won't be left undone, one has a clear conscious and happy with the life they led.  To elaborate further, living an unbalanced life just might leave someone feeling as though something is missing and that they then may wish they had longer and then fearing death.

Just some more thoughts.


----------



## Carol

I'm not afraid to die, I'm more afraid to live...and the suffering it entails.


----------



## Makalakumu

Nomad said:
			
		

> I'd have to respectfully disagree with you here. I think there are many reasons and motivations to avoid death beyond fear. Not wanting to upset or leave your family who depend on you for financial support, guidance, love, and a whole host of other things is certainly near the top of my list. Having other things you would like to do or accomplish is also up there.


 
Yet, all of these can be summed up as fear.  You fear upsetting people.  You fear leaving your family.  You fear not being able to take care of your responsibilities.  You fear not living the life you want.  All of them could be viewed as just manifestations of the instinctual fear of death.


----------



## Jenna

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> From a spiritual perspective, I'm afraid of death because I don't believe in God. I do not believe in Heaven or Hell or Souls. I think that when we die our consciousness melts into disorder. The energy that enervated my being is conserved and transformed into other forms to be used by other life forms in the physical web. It is not taken and preserved outside of our physical universe and it no longer contains any information about me.
> 
> When I die, I will be gone...forever. Entropy will take the unique circumstance that is me and undo it. As it will undo every single thing that I do in this universe, from my genetic line, to anything I leave behind, Time will erase everything.
> 
> With that in mind, one can see that I am in no hurry to die. Every single conscious moment is unique and precious and wasting a single one of this is utter foolishness. Heaven needs to happen in the "hear and now" or it will never happen at all, IMO.


Hey John 

Well I bow deeply to you because you are the first to admit to your fear of dying openly. If I had a prize you may well be a contender for it. I think fear is a thing few are willing to admit to and this is natural and maybe perceived as a sign of weakness. Ok perhaps a martial arts forum is not the place to admit such a fear but I am SO glad to hear your words and maybe know I am not irrational or the only one to hold such a fear. You say ...


			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Think about how we view people who don't fear death?Nuts. Crackpots. Crazies. Psychos. You name it.


 

I think this is true to an extent but perhaps is in some ways more typical of the likes of you and I who have no great faith and you go so far as to say you do not believe in God at all as is your proper right but yes for those who say they DO NOT FEAR DEATH and yet have no God or faith well for me I cannot help but think for the most part bravado and bluster and an dogged unwillingness to confront the issue and this is a fear in itself. However I am fully prepared to accept that there are many without faith who in their various ways have reconciled dying with continuity or with an inevitability that curbs the fear and makes it less potent.

Regarding your Entropy idea while I understand the idea I admit I am not certain how it applies here but regardless if I truly thought that every trace of me would be systematically erased simply by the attrition of sands of time against the rock of my legacy then I tell ya that would take me to a whole nuther place altogether. I am not one for believing in the here and now simply because in the here and now I am not who I can be I am not doing what I want and for the most part I am not enjoying every minute of it therefore I forego the idea of the here and now and living every day as if it were my last and I settle instead for the "might be" and the "possibly" and the "who knows" and this is a poor way to be and so my question to you if you are here is how do you do what you do? How do you be the very best you can be ALWAYS and how do you NOT waste time as I do in daydreams and impossible wishes and how do you throw off the shackles of the mundane and make as you say --your every conscious moment unique and precious-- because to know this is to know how to suppress or eliminate the fear of dying altogether.

Thank you for sharing 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Regardless of my spiritual beliefs, I do not fear death. Observation has shown, time and time again, that nothing really begins or ends. My life has been a continuous spectrum of experience, one thing moving softly (well, sometimes harshly) into the next. I have seen nothing that supports the perception that all ends with death; therefor, it holds no fear for me. It is simply another move to another place.
> 
> Lao-tzu wrote:
> "_Once you've found the mother,_
> _thereby you know the child._
> _Once you know the child,_
> _thereby you know the mother,_
> _not perishing though the body die._"
> --Tao Te Ching 52, Thomas Cleary translation


Good day Jim my pleasantly yolky friend  

I think to say "regardless of your spiritual beliefs" is to take away a major part of what quells the potency in the fear of dying, no? Your spiritual beliefs must help you in this tho? I like the idea of continuity I really do but can I ask where is the continuity FOR YOU as a person once you die does your EGO continue or are you only continuing as part of the big machine which like a tree can shed its leaves or even whole branches without any fear of ceasing to exist. Leaves and branches are assimilated into the soil and become fuel and food for the tree and this is the continuity of nature. However the leaf and the branch are not the leaf and the branch as they were when they were attached to the bough and branch would you be at all sad to no longer have this attachment to your persistent memory your soul your mind your ego your id call it what you will?

And thank you for sharing the Lao Tsu thought. He also said that "life and death are one thread -- the same line viewed from different sides" .... and I like this because there is a wonderful implication by his choice of words of a TWO WAY path between life and death and death and life rather than our wearied vision of a fixed journey or path with a terminal destination. This is nice.... no? Anyway thank you again for sharing your thoughts!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

HKphooey said:
			
		

> I have always tried to live each day as if it was my last (or the loved ones around me). I tell my wife I love her each morning before my ride to work and before we go to sleep. It has never lost any meaning for me. I want to always know I was able to tell her I loved her one last time.
> 
> I have tried to make sure I have done my best to help my friends and sometimes even strangers. I truly believe there is a better place above and all my friends and family will always be in my heart.
> 
> Knowing I was able to bring a smile to someone's face, a laugh to someone crying, or a shoulder to someone in need; helps me accept anything life or death brings my way.
> 
> Thanks for starting the thread. Makes you stop and think.


Hey now HKphooey quicker than the human eye 

This is just SO sweet and there is great profoundness in the simplest things and I am envious of you telling your wife  but these things are preparation in case the worst happens to us on the day or through the night at least we have not finished on a minor ninth but on a major seventh, ha!   But is this REALLY the same as saying you live each day like it was your last??  I have asked already forgive me but I wonder when you ride to work what work are you doing at that place? Is it the very best you can do and that you can BE for happiness? You have unlimited options open are you as happy as you can be doing what you do and I am not for a minute trying to put words into your mouth no sir. But I hear this sentiment often and am amazed at how it sounds to my ears because if I was living today as if it were my last would I really be sitting here wherever I am... oh yes coffee and chocolate gateau mmmmm, sorry, ha! but would I really be typing this   is this the best I can do at this moment? and for you the same question?? Of course you will not reply to me now to prove the point, ha! You are off living your life and being the best you can be but this is good and if I do not hear from you then thank you for sharing and you are lucky for having your wife and your wife is lucky for having you and all the best of my wishes for your happiness

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I'm a Christian abd believe in heaven and an afterlife and such...I'm not afraid to die for myself but I know if I died it would make life very difficult on a practical matter (to say nothing of emotional) for my wife and kids...I don't fear my death, I fear failing my family


Hey there Jay 

Your strong faith gives you something that cannot be taken away EVER and that is hope and while you are faithful there is ALWAYS hope and you do well to keep that close to you! And yes for you one day Jesus will come and take you out of this shell but have you ever a thought for how the Lord may time his intervention? Naturally you believe that you will go at the appointed time but are you philosophical enough to say that even though the time may not seem appropriate for you that it in some way was the ONLY time for you to die according to that which is predetermined for you? I mean you are young you could go tomorrow with a great amount unfulfilled and all the people you have not yet touched upon or spoken to. Or you and your wife and children may finally be enjoying your life to the fullest and you are plucked up suddenly from it. Or on the other side of that coin -- and not to be morbid -- you may be suffering for a long long time you may have lost faculties or be bound and chained in that awful non compos mentis state. In this situation it is a merciful release but still we would all wish never to be abandoned for any long time in these chains - but it DOES still happen. I am sorry for meandering but my question I should have asked outright is.... is there such a thing as the wrong time -- too soon or mercilessly late for you to die? 

Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Jenna said:
			
		

> I think to say "regardless of your spiritual beliefs" is to take away a major part of what quells the potency in the fear of dying, no? Your spiritual beliefs must help you in this tho?


Jenna:
I'm not saying they don't help.  They do, in another sort of way altogether.  My faith helps define what lies ahead.  That's all it does.  I came to the conclusion that life, in one form or another, exists past death (and before birth) some time ago.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> I like the idea of continuity I really do but can I ask where is the continuity FOR YOU as a person once you die does your EGO continue or are you only continuing as part of the big machine which like a tree can shed its leaves or even whole branches without any fear of ceasing to exist. Leaves and branches are assimilated into the soil and become fuel and food for the tree and this is the continuity of nature. However the leaf and the branch are not the leaf and the branch as they were when they were attached to the bough and branch would you be at all sad to no longer have this attachment to your persistent memory your soul your mind your ego your id call it what you will?


 
You mean, will 'Jim' exist afterwards?  That's the tricky question, really, isn't it? In my mind, I will return to the Unity when I move from here.  My experiences in this plane will contribute to that whole; but, 'I' will no longer exist as a discreet unit of life.  I firmly believe that I will join life itself, much as the leaf and bough that fall become, again, part of the tree.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> And thank you for sharing the Lao Tsu thought. He also said that "life and death are one thread -- the same line viewed from different sides" .... and I like this because there is a wonderful implication by his choice of words of a TWO WAY path between life and death and death and life rather than our wearied vision of a fixed journey or path with a terminal destination. This is nice.... no? Anyway thank you again for sharing your thoughts!
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
I do like that quote, as well.  As a species, we tend to think linearly (which is reasonable, as we live in linear time); but, it's not the only way to see things.

Thanks for this thread, Jenna.  Good on ya!

egg


----------



## Nomad

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Yet, all of these can be summed up as fear. You fear upsetting people. You fear leaving your family. You fear not being able to take care of your responsibilities. You fear not living the life you want. All of them could be viewed as just manifestations of the instinctual fear of death.


 
We obviously view things differently here, and I truly think you have twisted my words on this to suit your viewpoint.  I gave these as *reasons* not to be overly stupid and reckless, and to try to come home at the end of the day.  You turn it and say this proves that I am afraid of death.  This is a logical fallacy.

Fear kills the spirit.  We have all met those who have been paralysed by their fears; who won't go to the beach because they're afraid of drowning, who freeze when they're anywhere above the 1st story of a building (sometimes even inside, with no possibility of actually falling!), who are terrified of dogs, or scared to go out at night in case they are mugged/raped/killed, etc.  Every day people allow fear to control their actions and stop them from doing things they otherwise might enjoy greatly.  

I am not claiming to be some superhuman who is immune to fear.  If you pointed a loaded gun at my head, I have no doubt that I'd be scared.  But I really don't think that's what we're talking about here (maybe I'm wrong).  

To be afraid of death is pointless... eventually, it will find you.  Sometimes you might see it coming (illness) and sometimes you won't (car crash).  I like to think (and yes, I realize I won't really know until it's here) that I'll face my end with a degree of calm and dignity.  In the meantime, the point is to live your life fully and without regrets so that if it happens to be cut short you've still made a good run of it. 

If you allow fear of anything (death, heights, dogs, etc) to dictate your actions, then it rules you completely.


----------



## Jenna

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I'm not afraid to die, I'm more afraid to live...and the suffering it entails.


Hey Carol 
The hardest battle to win is the battle over yourself. Look down at your knuckles and tell me those are not cuts and scars and lifted skin from battles fought already. Because only when you tell me those are not really cuts will I allow you to fall down a victim. Until then let those knuckle scars taughten and hurt and remind you that you are a fighter and not a victim and wrap up your hands tightly and put your gloves back on and remember the path to the championship is fought one round at a time

Seconds out please....

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## green meanie

I ain't scared. :asian:


----------



## Makalakumu

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> My opinion is... I don't want to die, but I really don't fear it. However, I do not want to hasten it either. Don't confuse not fearing death with wanting death.


 
I don't think "not fearing death" automatically equates with "wanting death."  A daredevil who foolishly risks life and limb isn't seeking death and they obviously do not fear it.  However, a daredevil who carefully calculates his/her risks and takes the proper safety precautions may not fear the risk, but certainly fears death.  Otherwise why would they even take those precautions?


----------



## Jenna

green meanie said:
			
		

> I ain't scared. :asian:


Hey green meanie 

Thank you for your no-fluff reply. If you will allow me to ask you a no-fluff question....  how do you know?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## green meanie

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey green meanie
> 
> Thank you for your no-fluff reply. If you will allow me to ask you a no-fluff question.... how do you know?
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
I don't know. How do you know if you are? 

Now. Are you asking me if I've been in life threatening situations? Was I afraid I might die when I was? Then the answer is 'yes' to the first and 'no' to the second. I've been there and looked it in the eye. I'm on the other side of it now and there isn't any going back.

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Aye?


----------



## Makalakumu

Nomad said:
			
		

> If you allow fear of anything (death, heights, dogs, etc) to dictate your actions, then it rules you completely.


 
If you really think about it, the fear of death already rules most people completely.  I will use myself as an example.  When I drive, I put on a seatbelt because I don't want to die.  When I ride a bike, I put on a helmet because I don't want to die.  When I canoe or kayak, I put on my life jacket because I don't want to die.  I don't drink and drive because I don't want to die.  I don't smoke because I don't want to die.  I don't have lots of promiscuous unprotected sex because I don't want to die (my wife would kill me!).  This litany goes on and on and on and I think that in most people it would be easily repeated.  

IMO, it is hard for me to understand why people would say that all of these precautions do not stem from a fear of death.  That is what I'm hoping someone will explain.  

upnorthkyosa

ps - nomad, I'm not trying to twist your words or "win" any debates or arguments.  I'm just trying to discuss this very interesting topic.  :asian:


----------



## Makalakumu

green meanie said:
			
		

> I don't know. How do you know if you are?


 
Because I do everything I can to preserve my life...in most circumstances.


----------



## Carol

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Carol
> The hardest battle to win is the battle over yourself. Look down at your knuckles and tell me those are not cuts and scars and lifted skin from battles fought already. Because only when you tell me those are not really cuts will I allow you to fall down a victim. Until then let those knuckle scars taughten and hurt and remind you that you are a fighter and not a victim and wrap up your hands tightly and put your gloves back on and remember the path to the championship is fought one round at a time
> 
> Seconds out please....
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
Jenna my friend 

You are one heck of a coach.  Thanks for taping me back up!  The bell is about to ring for the next round.  I'm ready, lemme at 'em


----------



## Jenna

green meanie said:
			
		

> I don't know. How do you know if you are?
> 
> Now. Are you asking me if I've been in life threatening situations? Was I afraid I might die when I was? Then the answer is 'yes' to the first and 'no' to the second. I've been there and looked it in the eye. I'm on the other side of it now and there isn't any going back.
> 
> "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
> 
> Aye?


Well now I have nothing but veiled admiration for those like your good self who do not have this fear. No really because to have the capability to repress something so natural as fear of dying is a serious feat  and I can only assume you are not bluffing because only a fool would not realise the only person they deceive in such a bluff is themselves. I guess you are not a climber or a caver or a speed-freak biker or a skydiver or a white water rafter because to get the thrill from these activities the participant requires some modicum of fear for their lives -- and knowing they will survive of course -- but without the fear there is no true enjoyment of the risk. 

I am not certain if you would deign to be a Star Trek watcher but even so you will know what I mean if I say your position is very "Spock" and I sincerely hope that works out well for you

I wonder in what other ways you get your kicks you cannot possibly be a thrill seeker. A side issue of course I apologise

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I do not fear death for I know that all must die sometime. It is my hope that when I do, my death will be meaningful and have purpose. I do wonder at times, what legacy have I created? I see my legacy already with my family, but what of my friends and others I associate? :idunno:
> 
> I suppose that is all that matters--my family and loved ones will have me within their hearts. Whether it extends to others with similar thoughts, I guess I won't know while I'm alive.
> 
> - Ceicei


Hey Ceicei  Thank you SO much for looking in!

Yes legacies are the only meaningful and realisable continuity and to think on the trail you have cut through this life and of the marks you have put on people (good ones I mean) to meditate on this often is surely a good thing for seeing your life quantitatively if such a thing is possible?

But you hit on a key point when you say "I guess I won't know while I'm alive" because this points out another factor that is a major cause of regret I think and that is that we do not always ASK the important questions of people of family and friends while we are alive and we leave so much ASSUMED and really do not know things for certain. that is interesting and thank you for making me think on it.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Nomad

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> If you really think about it, the fear of death already rules most people completely. I will use myself as an example. When I drive, I put on a seatbelt because I don't want to die. When I ride a bike, I put on a helmet because I don't want to die. When I canoe or kayak, I put on my life jacket because I don't want to die. I don't drink and drive because I don't want to die. I don't smoke because I don't want to die. I don't have lots of promiscuous unprotected sex because I don't want to die (my wife would kill me!). This litany goes on and on and on and I think that in most people it would be easily repeated.
> 
> IMO, it is hard for me to understand why people would say that all of these precautions do not stem from a fear of death. That is what I'm hoping someone will explain.
> 
> upnorthkyosa
> 
> ps - nomad, I'm not trying to twist your words or "win" any debates or arguments. I'm just trying to discuss this very interesting topic. :asian:


 
Hmmm... even though everything here on both sides is written in plain English, I feel like we're speaking different languages here (and I mean this respectfully).  For me, "I don't want to die" does not equate with "I fear death"... for reasons already given in my previous posts.  And with that, I really can't think of anything else to say that wouldn't be rehashing.


----------



## Nomad

Jenna said:
			
		

> I guess you are not a climber or a caver or a speed-freak biker or a skydiver or a white water rafter because to get the thrill from these activities the participant requires some modicum of fear for their lives -- and knowing they will survive of course -- but without the fear there is no true enjoyment of the risk.


 
OK, wait a minute... so the only reason to do these activities is to obtain joy by risking death?  This seems a stretch to me.  A climber challenges himself, his skill and technique to get to the top of an obstacle in front of him.  Does he do this only so he can feel the exhilaration caused by the possibility of falling?  I don't think so.  

A caver is exploring areas that most people will never get a chance to see, often a place with beautiful limestone sculptures and other features.  You think his only motivation comes from the possibility of getting lost, falling, or otherwise dying in the cave?

In all of the activities you've mentioned, there are multiple reasons to do them.  One of these reasons may be because the person is an adrenaline junky... which does not necessarily mean that they only get off through their fear of death!  The sensations of skydiving have often been compared to the exhilaration of actually flying, and I think the "fear of death", while it may add something to the experience for some people is more likely to put people off these activities.

A big waterslide is exhilarating for the speed you obtain on the way down, but the risk is probably the same as (or less than) crossing an intersection.  I don't think there's a solid connection here (or in any of your examples) with being afraid of death (or not).


----------



## Makalakumu

Nomad said:
			
		

> Hmmm... even though everything here on both sides is written in plain English, I feel like we're speaking different languages here (and I mean this respectfully). For me, "I don't want to die" does not equate with "I fear death"... for reasons already given in my previous posts. And with that, I really can't think of anything else to say that wouldn't be rehashing.


 
Fair enough...:asian: 

Anyone else want to take a shot at separating the concept of "I don't want to die" from a "fear of death."

In my opinion, it seems as if one naturally flows into another, as I have stated above.  

Another point I would like to make is that I think that humans are pretty darn good about rationalizing their fear so they can get on with their lives.  Sometimes, however, we go to far and get ourselves into trouble.  Most people call this "bad judgement" although sometimes it can just be an "accident."


----------



## Jenna

Nomad said:
			
		

> OK, wait a minute... so the only reason to do these activities is to obtain joy by risking death? This seems a stretch to me. A climber challenges himself, his skill and technique to get to the top of an obstacle in front of him. Does he do this only so he can feel the exhilaration caused by the possibility of falling? I don't think so.
> 
> A caver is exploring areas that most people will never get a chance to see, often a place with beautiful limestone sculptures and other features. You think his only motivation comes from the possibility of getting lost, falling, or otherwise dying in the cave?
> 
> In all of the activities you've mentioned, there are multiple reasons to do them. One of these reasons may be because the person is an adrenaline junky... which does not necessarily mean that they only get off through their fear of death! The sensations of skydiving have often been compared to the exhilaration of actually flying, and I think the "fear of death", while it may add something to the experience for some people is more likely to put people off these activities.
> 
> A big waterslide is exhilarating for the speed you obtain on the way down, but the risk is probably the same as (or less than) crossing an intersection. I don't think there's a solid connection here (or in any of your examples) with being afraid of death (or not).


Hey mister Nomad 
I am simply using these as a metric but if the analogy does not suit you then do not worry about dwelling on the literal interpretation. Let me instead invite you to step out of the question a little and allow me to ask you what is it that you ARE afraid of?

Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Dying is easy. Living is the hard part. Particularly if you want to do any of it well.

Best Regards,

Dave


----------



## bydand

Kreth said:
			
		

> Thanks for reminding me. I need to delete some porn...



Oh man Kreth, that is too funny.  

As for the question, no I'm not afraid of death, but sometimes the manner of death frightens me.  I watched my Grandfather slowly die a bit at a time from Alzhimers, and my father-in-law die from lung and brain cancer. I wouldn't want my kids to witness either of those ways of departing.  I too believe like Terry of an afterlife with God, so the thought of leaving this world behind for what I believe is waiting isn't difficult.  I love my life, I love every day I get to spend on this spinning ball of insanity with my family, and in no way wish it to come to an end anytime soon.  I just pray that when my number is up, I don't linger.  Kinda hope it happens with a fishing rod in hand, better with a lunker on the end of the line as well, but beggers can't be choosers.


----------



## green meanie

Jenna said:
			
		

> Well now I have nothing but veiled admiration for those like your good self who do not have this fear. No really because to have the capability to repress something so natural as fear of dying is a serious feat and I can only assume you are not bluffing because only a fool would not realise the only person they deceive in such a bluff is themselves. I guess you are not a climber or a caver or a speed-freak biker or a skydiver or a white water rafter because to get the thrill from these activities the participant requires some modicum of fear for their lives -- and knowing they will survive of course -- but without the fear there is no true enjoyment of the risk.
> 
> I am not certain if you would deign to be a Star Trek watcher but even so you will know what I mean if I say your position is very "Spock" and I sincerely hope that works out well for you
> 
> I wonder in what other ways you get your kicks you cannot possibly be a thrill seeker. A side issue of course I apologise
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
Nomad answered this rather well already but I'll still make a few small additions. It's not a repression... it's just letting go. Not bragging. I've just been through a few situations where you either break down or break through. I don't see my position as being very 'Spock' -emotionless, etc. I'd like to think I'm the opposite, if anything.

Are the activities you described just for those with a death wish? They don't sound like the sort of thing someone who is afraid of dying would engage in. Those are the kind of things that someone does when they want to live life to the fullest and it's fear that holds us back. Isn't it?

_"The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure that you seek." -Joseph Campbell_


----------



## Robert Lee

Life and death are the same part of liveing. And death is the end to liveing. Those left behing mourn death they miss that living person. they are perhaps what makes death feared. I my self do not look at death as something I fear when it comes I probably will not know It. The people I new will though and Thats the only thing I wonder of How does one tell others not to mourn.


----------



## someguy

I'd say I'm not afraid to die.  I don't really know.  I haven't ever been near death.  On my most shalllow level I am not afraid of death.  I conciously don't fear death.  Maybe when I must face it I will cower.  Only time will tell.
As for a spiritual level.  I have blind faith.  really that is what faith is after all.  It is blind.  I can try to rationalize what I do not know.   But, the purpose of faith is for the unknown isn't it?  So blindly I am ready for death.


----------



## John Brewer

When a loved one dies we mourn for our selves. On a physical level I fear death because I love my life. I train in a church (the best of both worlds for me) and I have a great wife and son. But I know if I die I will be with the Lord. As  Christians my family will mourn because they miss me and celebrate because I'm in a better place. 

John


----------



## Brother John

Jenna said:
			
		

> So.... if you have ever performed that meditation or had a passing thought for your own death.... Q: are you afraid to die, afraid of the WAY you might die, afraid of the what after?
> 
> Thank you for sharing
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


The meditation you suggest is very useful in helping a person sort and prioritize their life!!!

I'm not afraid of death, nor of what's to follow it. My beliefs and faith lead me to believe that neither is to be feared. 
The two things that DO concern me most about MY death:
1: WHEN? I have a family that counts on me a great deal. Two young children that need me in their life, a young....BEAUTIFUL wife that needs my support and wants my love. I don't want to leave until I MUST. I can't pass on to my other duties until I take full care of these. I'll just have to trust that Deity knows exactly when that will be!

2: HOW? I'd really rather not deteriorate and have an extremely LOW quality of life until I dwindle away. I'd also not want my death to be on the conscience of others (witnessed by loved ones, leaving emotional trauma or scars). I'd also REALLY like to not die from any kind of cruelty or victimization.

Interesting topic. 
Thank you

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John

BTW: Jenna...


I Like your avatar there: It looks like your angel needs to potty though.

;-)

Your Brother
John


----------



## Jenna

Brother John said:
			
		

> BTW: Jenna...
> 
> 
> I Like your avatar there: It looks like your angel needs to potty though.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Your Brother
> John


Hey now someone's Brother John  Thank you for your above thoughts... And sadly I have to get a bit shouty with you  for mocking you just leave my angel alone you mister! And I see you looking at her through the eyes of a father and not a lover but even still you might be able to discern she is an angel and thus sworn to temperence and sobriety and abstinence from appetites and she is finding herself a little more um...  pent up frustrated in.... OTHER ways if you follow. Now you can close your mind again and return to mundane thoughts, ha!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Fair enough...:asian:
> 
> Anyone else want to take a shot at separating the concept of "I don't want to die" from a "fear of death."
> 
> In my opinion, it seems as if one naturally flows into another, as I have stated above.
> 
> Another point I would like to make is that I think that humans are pretty darn good about rationalizing their fear so they can get on with their lives. Sometimes, however, we go to far and get ourselves into trouble. Most people call this "bad judgement" although sometimes it can just be an "accident."


Hey John  thank you for your contribution to this thread. I am afraid I can only make a conjecture on the  disctinction being made between the two concepts and that is that people see the admission of the first as natural due to enjoyment and desire to prolong life whereas admission of the second seems to be akin to wearing a tshirt that says COWARD.

I think there is a big problem with people admitting genuine fear and this is not news or anything revelationary but for those in particular who can lay NO great claim to utmost faith in their hereafter, for those people to NOT admit they are afraid to die is a FEAR in itself and  in not admitting they are afraid to die such folk are actually admitting their fear BY PROXY and this is merely my thoughts on the matter. I hope this makes some sense and does not sound overly condescending. Fear is natural and nothing to be ashamed of. I have admitted mine and you yours and I cannot help but imagine the world would be a COMPLETELY different place if so many people GENUINELY had no fear of their deaths and surely SO MANY things would be turned on their head if people really were free from the fearful shackles of dying, no??

I do not buy into this talk for a minute but at the same time I have respect for the views of everyone who has posted their thoughts and for the inviolable right for them to hold such views. Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Brother John

I'll take my chastizement.....

I DO also like your tag at the bottom of your posts.
Ahimsa Pratisthayam Tat Samnidhau Vaira Tyagah
_"For the one who is established in non-violence, all hostilities cease in the presence of that one."_

The ultimate in 'self-defense'.
:asian: 

Your Brother (everyone's brother)
John


----------



## Carol

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'll take my chastizement.....
> 
> I DO also like your tag at the bottom of your posts.
> Ahimsa Pratisthayam Tat Samnidhau Vaira Tyagah
> _"For the one who is established in non-violence, all hostilities cease in the presence of that one."_
> 
> The ultimate in 'self-defense'.
> :asian:
> 
> Your Brother (everyone's brother)
> John


 


Brother John,

Where the HECK have you been?????????????

You have been MISSED!!!!

I do hope you stay around and post more often.  Your insight and knowledge is fantastic.   Please stick around...wouldya?  Please?

Your sister in Kenpo,
Carol


----------



## Brother John

Namaste sister...
thank you.

It's good to be missed by good people.
I've still been doing my martial arts, but I've taken more time to continue other studies and practices as well... plus to spend a GREATER amount of time with my wife and children!!!

Thank you for noticing my absence
That's probably the best compliment I've had in a long time.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Laeticia

Hi Jenna, thanks for the interesting topic! 

I certainly don't want to die. I don't fear death "actively", as in think about it every day and night, but I certainly try to minimize all possibilities of it happening.

Funny thing is, others (esp. my elder relatives) fear me dying much more than I do myself. Every spring when it's time to take my bike out my granpa reminds me that it could stay in his garage all the summer, he wouldn't mind, or even asks me if I have been thinking about selling it. My aunt gave me some clippings from a medical journal speaking about lead poisonings gotten from badly ventilated indoor shooting ranges. Still, I continue to drive my bike and shoot, I just try to minimize risks of me getting hurt while doing these things. On the other hand, I'm terribly afraid of water. I don't like it, and I can't swim even though I've learned to do it several times. My relatives don't try to stop me from going near water, on the contrary they try to get me to swim. I try to limit the situations where I might have to immerse myself in water (how many credible reasons can you come up with for the PE teacher to not to have to swim in junior high when normally you have swimming at least 4 times a year?).

I do fear death of my loved ones, though. I feared my grandpa could die before I get back to Finland to see him again. Nothing wrong with him or anything, but he IS getting older every day and he acknowledged it himself when we parted. I fear for my boyfriend when he's skydiving (although he hasn't done it but once or twice/year these 2-3 years we've been togheter), I trust his skill but stuff can happen. I managed to scare him once quite good as I was half hour late from practise and he knew I should've come with my bike (bike didn't want to start so I had to take the bus..).

IMO, the reason I don't fear my own death but do fear swimming is that having to swim is more probable than dying. I know I can't live forever, but being young and all I just don't KNOW it. Having never been faced with it too radically, having no one die in front of my eyes, I can't say I've ever faced it really. So I guess I fear it, but as something that's still far away. The death of others is much easier to "see", esp if they are more prone to it due to age or hobbies.

Sorry for the rambling, having to speak french daily kills my ability to think in english... 

Cheers,
Laeticia


----------



## fireman00

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey mister fireman00
> Man! So you are another one out there risking your neck for all of us. That makes you something special and I think it is just WAY too easy to overlook guys like you out there with no greater thought than preserving life. This is amazing and thank you for making me think about what you are doing.
> 
> I would love to not be afraid of dying but find that an incredibly difficult one to grasp. I wonder how you have managed to do that yourself? But yes there are many gruesome and horrible ways to die between accidents criminality and disease so much to choose from huh? But this I would wish to make us think on the here and the now and stop wasting time and words....
> 
> I wish God speed you home to your wife and the old pilots' adage is true about any landing you walk away from... I wonder do pilots really have that belief or with all their technology and reliability is it just lipservice? As you are in extreme situations I guess quite a lot do you have a similar "any landing..." viewpoint? Thank you!
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
Jenna - Thanks for the kind words, when we get toned out I always make sure to give my wife a hug and quick kiss then utter the fireman's prayer - "dear God, please don't let me ***** up".  

There is SO much that can go wrong in a structure fire thanks to illegal renovations that divide up rooms into sub-rooms so what looks like an easy house to clear is now a rats maze, houses can be filled with garbage that can make it VERY difficult to search for vicitims , floor collapses, roof collapses, facade collapses - but being careful and training with 40 GREAT guys makes it a somewhat safer.

Being a vollie is an excellent way to give back to the community and there's a spot for all shapes, sizes, ages and both sexes on a fire department; from driving the apparatus, filling air bottles, passing out water bottles/ cold towels, helping direct traffic, manning the radio room, helping out with fund raising - there is always a need for more man/ woman power.

Not to go way off topic, but today (Saturday) after running through a rehersal for our black belt banquet my fire dept was paged out to assist with a water rescue - a young child fell into the Delaware River (good sized and fast running in spots).  The child was last seen thrashing around in the water and then went under. I grab my gear bag, jump into my X , turn on my 4 ways and blue light and started the 5 mile drive from town X to my town. Through one major intersection I must have gotten the finger from at least 4 people who refused to yield ( with one fine individual offering both of his middle fingers ) to the point of jamming the intersection and I was pleased to hear a number of 4 letter words of encouragement from at least two of these fine folks   Once I managed to get through the intersection and to the station we geared up and started off to the scene with two boats - thank God that the child was pulled out of the river by some canoers a couple hundred yards down stream and we were cancelled while enroute, the child (so we hear) will be fine.  

But I can't get over how angry these 4 people were; the ones who refused to yield - was 30 seconds of their time that important?  I would offer that these would be the same folks who would scream to the papers that it took the fire department or rescue squad way to long to respond when THEY were the folks in trouble and needed assistance.  These same folks would most likely not even think about volunteering to help out. 

Sorry to vent but I feel better now


----------



## Ceicei

Jenna said:
			
		

> I think there is a big problem with people admitting genuine fear and this is not news or anything revelationary but for those in particular who can lay NO great claim to utmost faith in their hereafter, for those people to NOT admit they are afraid to die is a FEAR in itself and in not admitting they are afraid to die such folk are actually admitting their fear BY PROXY and this is merely my thoughts on the matter. I hope this makes some sense and does not sound overly condescending. Fear is natural and nothing to be ashamed of. I have admitted mine and you yours and I cannot help but imagine the world would be a COMPLETELY different place if so many people GENUINELY had no fear of their deaths and surely SO MANY things would be turned on their head if people really were free from the fearful shackles of dying, no??
> 
> I do not buy into this talk for a minute but at the same time I have respect for the views of everyone who has posted their thoughts and for the inviolable right for them to hold such views. Thank you
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



There are quite a lot of things that I do fear.  The martial arts have taught me much how to handle many of these fears, and for that, I have become stronger.

Now related to your comment and the topic, It is not death itself that I fear, but rather, the *process* of some ways of dying.

- Ceicei


----------



## Jenna

Laeticia said:
			
		

> Hi Jenna, thanks for the interesting topic!
> 
> I certainly don't want to die. I don't fear death "actively", as in think about it every day and night, but I certainly try to minimize all possibilities of it happening.
> 
> Funny thing is, others (esp. my elder relatives) fear me dying much more than I do myself. Every spring when it's time to take my bike out my granpa reminds me that it could stay in his garage all the summer, he wouldn't mind, or even asks me if I have been thinking about selling it. My aunt gave me some clippings from a medical journal speaking about lead poisonings gotten from badly ventilated indoor shooting ranges. Still, I continue to drive my bike and shoot, I just try to minimize risks of me getting hurt while doing these things. On the other hand, I'm terribly afraid of water. I don't like it, and I can't swim even though I've learned to do it several times. My relatives don't try to stop me from going near water, on the contrary they try to get me to swim. I try to limit the situations where I might have to immerse myself in water (how many credible reasons can you come up with for the PE teacher to not to have to swim in junior high when normally you have swimming at least 4 times a year?).
> 
> I do fear death of my loved ones, though. I feared my grandpa could die before I get back to Finland to see him again. Nothing wrong with him or anything, but he IS getting older every day and he acknowledged it himself when we parted. I fear for my boyfriend when he's skydiving (although he hasn't done it but once or twice/year these 2-3 years we've been togheter), I trust his skill but stuff can happen. I managed to scare him once quite good as I was half hour late from practise and he knew I should've come with my bike (bike didn't want to start so I had to take the bus..).
> 
> IMO, the reason I don't fear my own death but do fear swimming is that having to swim is more probable than dying. I know I can't live forever, but being young and all I just don't KNOW it. Having never been faced with it too radically, having no one die in front of my eyes, I can't say I've ever faced it really. So I guess I fear it, but as something that's still far away. The death of others is much easier to "see", esp if they are more prone to it due to age or hobbies.
> 
> Sorry for the rambling, having to speak french daily kills my ability to think in english...
> 
> Cheers,
> Laeticia


Hey Laeticia  wow what a gorgeous name and thank you for making these points it is good to get your view!

Yes I completely understand what  you are saying here and one thing you said in particular has me thinking.... You say "The death of others is much easier to "see", esp if they are more prone to it due to age or hobbies" ... 
And I think that is a wonderful observation that we may not fear our own deaths because we do not always see that we are making a path towards that eventuality. Thank you for giving me something else to think on! 

Oh and I know ABSOLUTELY what you mean about speaking french after having spent almos every weekend  for the last 18 months there trying to escape London reality I find it difficult --and sometimes do not even wish to TRY to get myself out of the way and back to english and even typing I hear myself as though in french and this is weird but the language is so flowing and soft and well.... romantic and so different from the lilting passionate italian or fiery and staccato spanish or angry german let alone the humdrum english. Are you in France teaching can I ask?? I em envious of you being there and where are you can I ask without seeming nosey??? Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Swordlady

Jenna said:
			
		

> Q: are you afraid to die, afraid of the WAY you might die, afraid of the what after?



Those are some deep questions you asked.  I don't think about death often, but when I do, I'd like to think that I'm not afraid to look at death squarely in the face.  But...I haven't really been in a situation (yet) where death was literally knocking on my door, so I don't know how I would actually react if/when that day comes.

One of my fears of dying is that it may be a painful death.  Or one that is slowly debilitating.  That is one of the things I do fear about getting old.  I fear losing my memory and facilities.  I worked with older Americans in a previous job.  Some were healthy, and others were stricken with a number of ailments, many of them due to advanced age.  I wondered sometimes how I will age.  Will I remain healthy, or will I suffer the sometimes adverse affects of aging?  I'm not going to remain young forever.

I have to admit, a great part of me wants my death connected to a noble ends (e.g., sacrificing my life to save another).  But would I necessarily want to forfeit my own life so prematurely?  I probably wouldn't know without facing such a situation.

I do believe in a heaven and a hell.  Sometimes I worry if I'm going to end up in the right place.  I worry that my life isn't "good enough" in the eyes of God.  The only thing I can do is to move full speed ahead with my life, and try to be the best I can be.  Hopefully, that will be good enough.


----------



## Laeticia

Jenna said:
			
		

> Are you in France teaching can I ask?? I em envious of you being there and where are you can I ask without seeming nosey???


Not nosey at all!

I'm actually here studying japanese as a Erasmus exchange student. I'll live in Paris until end of June, so if you plan on escaping here and fancy a cup of coffee etc. give me a nudge ok? I promise to speak a horrible english and even more horrible french with my lovely nordic accent. 

And back to the thread... 

Cheers,
Laeticia


----------



## MA-Caver

Long winded answer ... fair warning, because I put off replying a tad longer than I intended because I wanted to read each post and then reflect my views on them. 
Fear of dying is the subject then. 

Often times I've contemplated or meditated about my own death, which as with all living things, must come. 
Is it that God calls us? Or is it fate, destiny or sheer chance that one happens to be where they are when they die? 
*



			From Dune: "When God wants a creature to die in a particular place he causeth that creatures wants to driect them to that place... "
		
Click to expand...

*You're driving home on the freeway from work, the dojo, or just visiting with friends and a drunk driver collides with your vehicle head-on killing you. Is that God calling, or just plain bad luck? 

I've more near-death experiences than I care to count myself; guns pointed at my face and cocked, knives thrust into my body, my own innards spilling out on to the floor when, as a child I fell upon a broken glass bottle, large rocks crashing inches from me when deep inside my beloved caves, car accidents, attacked by the scum of the earth (muggers) armed with knives and pistols, climbing up a 300 foot deep pit on a rope and finding it's beginning to fray as I reach the edge, and so forth. 

Was this God calling me home and I just failed to answer the phone? Did I spit in death's face and told him to go take someone else for I am not ready to die today? 
Or was God's hand in there somewhere sparing me each time, for a work I've yet to start or complete? A work that I may (or may not) be aware of?  Who knows? God does I guess. 

Being afraid of leaving things yet un-done is something that _shouldn't_ (IMO) concern us if our faith(s) in whatever God(s) we choose to believe (or not believe in) to take care of such things after we die, if our faith is strong enough. If it's there and you truly do believe then you can die in peace, trusting Him who is also sometimes known as the Almighty. 
For those who do not (choose) to believe in such things, then it really doesn't matter does it. For when you die; that's it, nothing more, knowing nothing, feeling and thinking ... nothing... so it doesn't matter... right?

The last thing that you do before you die. Ah yes, all of us wish to be in the midst of doing something noble and good for our fellow man. Like the police/firemen in the North and South towers of the WTC, or to die fighting as your plane crashes into a previously unknown field somewhere in Pennslyvania. Much more preferable than sitting at your desk when your world erupts in a ball of flaming vaporizing jet fuel before you even had a chance to look up form your computer terminal to see what's coming. Or to be one of those who sat helplessly in their seats as the plane hurtled towards one of the buildings. But since we know not the hour of our impending deaths we go on with our lives best as we may and as we see fit. 

We rarely choose the method of our deaths, save for suicides whether they be noble or selfish. We would like to think that we can choose them and go out peacefully, quietly or in a blaze of glory... or at least somewhere in between. We would like to think that we would appreciate the knowledge of the hour of our deaths. Yet there are many of us who would've been just as happy to remain ignorant. Cancer, diabetes, aids, lukemia and a dozen other diseases that would eventually bring us down should we the misfortune of getting them. 


			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> You're quite correct fear serves no purpose whether in a fight or when facing death. Fear however; has a way of breaking any fences you might put up to keep it under control don't you think?


 Yes, in one way but fear does sometimes throws up those same fences that will get you to run out (or in) that burning house or turn the steering wheel in time to avoid a collision, or to fight back and use your training to (try) knock the gun/knife out of an assailant's hand... it's a double edged sword; fear is. 
Dying bravely or dying in fear, IMO death is indifferent to either. When it comes, it's finished. We can fight it or plead with it, it won't matter. Death has a schedule to keep and won't be thwarted by those resisting or begging for a few more moments of life. 



			
				crushing said:
			
		

> I'm not really afraid of my own death, but I am concerned that in the confusion of such a life ending event, and that because around 110 people die a minute, that someone else's God might accidently take me home with her/Him/it.


Heh, you make me think of a quote from Alfred Hitchcock who spoke upon the differences between Horror and Terror.  He explained: 





> "Terror is when you're in a crowded room and know that there's a bomb about to go off and there's no way out.  Horror is after the bomb goes off and you're the only one left alive."


 The things that I do certianly seem like I court danger and death everytime I do them, but I'm really not. I am doing them as safely as possible as my training and common sense makes me. I make sure that I and all those with me (for I never do it alone), are being as safe likewise because knowing that even their failings can suddenly terminate the whole trip for me, and them. But I do them because the rewards at the end are well worth the risks taken. Same with scuba diving, rock climbing, sky-diving, and so forth. I want to live doing what I enjoy. If I die while doing so... then at least I will have died doing what I love. There may be a few moments of terror (such as the rope breaking and falling or hearing a large rock falling towards me and I've no where to go (been there done that... whew), but I will at least have died enjoying my life at that moment. 


			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I'm afraid to die. My fear of death puts my seat belt around my lap. My fear of death makes me put a helmet on when I ski or ride a bike. My fear of death makes me put my PFD on when I am canoeing.
> I'm afraid of the regret everyone in my life would fel. I'm afraid of the "thought of the pain they would feel. My hope is that when I die, I will be old enough that people will expect it and the parting will not be so bitter.
> I think that everyone, at some level, is afraid to die. It's a natural instinct that preserves life. Would our species lasted this long without this inborn fear? Probably not. And I think that humans know this instinctually. Think about how we view people who don't fear death. Nuts. Crackpots. Crazies. Psychos. You name it.
> Is it possible to over-ride this instinct? Yes. But even then, people are still afraid and only their conditioning allows them to over come that fear.


A great insight. 
Nomad, putting on a seat-belt, wearing a helmet, putting on a PFD, securing a harness and double checking a rope anchor, and checking the air in your scuba tank, and ensuring your parachute is folded properly so that it'll open without a hitch and so on... it's all common sense that helps avoid the possibilty of death. If common sense is to be interpreted as a "fear of death" then by all means I think it sounds like a smart thing to have around. 
For those who go out of their way or ignore or have an appalling lack of common sense go see www.darwinawards.com to find the best of these examples. 
I do have to agree with you Nomad however; on your point that being afraid of death _*is*_ pointless. It's going to happen whether you want it to or not, whether you know it or not, whether you expect it or not, whether you intend it to or not. 

Fear is something IMO, multi-faceted like a diamond. There are so many ways to fear that it's difficult to pin down one type of fear for each situation, circumstance, person, incident, thing, occurrance and so on. 
But I think you and upnorthkyosa need to stop and take a look at something both of you said before continuing on with your *ahem* debate... because they're exactly the same thing ... just said differently. 


			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> <snip> Is it possible to over-ride this instinct? Yes. But even then, people are still afraid and only their conditioning allows them to overcome that fear.





			
				Nomad said:
			
		

> If you allow fear of anything (death, heights, dogs, etc.) to dictate your actions, then it rules you completely.


Sounds like to me you guys just agreed upon the same thing here :uhyeah:

Oh by the way Nomad I couldn't resist 


			
				Nomad said:
			
		

> A caver is exploring areas that most people will never get a chance to see, often a place with beautiful limestone sculptures and other features. You think his only motivation comes from the possibility of getting lost, falling or otherwise dying in the cave?


 I can answer that with a definite "no" but admit that while there is a possibility, we (cavers) train long and hard to avoid those things happening... having personally been on several (real) rescues and numerous rescue trainings, I can affirm that it is an awful thing to have to have happened and it's a scary thing too (if it didn't kill you outright at first). Thus, fear definitely motivates me to learn what I can do to avoid these things from happening to me (or anyone else). 

The short answer (finally  ) to the main question; is simply "no, I am not afraid to die."  I don't want to and will fight it, but death is not that terrible. I saw it on the face of my mother the morning I went to wake her up and found her gone so many years ago. The peace and serenity that was on her countenance told me that I had nothing to fear. I've lived that way ever since. 

:asian:


----------



## MartialIntent

Yeah, I'm afraid to die... _absolutely_. I'm not religious and I often lose sight of why I'm here at all. I'd find it hard to believe that _anyone_ in this position saying they weren't afraid to die wasn't talking out their ar$e.

Martial arts people are great at dismissing fear. But dismissing it and facing it down in a confrontation are not the same thing. 

Well done to those previous who admit their fear. And to those that seemingly have no fear of anything even dying well, I'm undecided whether to congratulate you and try to glean your secret or to admonish self-deceit as the utmost vanity. 

Either way... Respects!


----------



## Nomad

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey mister Nomad
> I am simply using these as a metric but if the analogy does not suit you then do not worry about dwelling on the literal interpretation. Let me instead invite you to step out of the question a little and allow me to ask you what is it that you ARE afraid of?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
OK, fair enough.  I'm afraid of things happening to my daughters... that they could be abducted or seriously damaged while I was helpless to prevent it.  I'm afraid that, as a parent, I could do something to alienate them, drive them away from me, spoil them severely, or otherwise have them end up in a position of hating me later in life.

As the son of an abusive alcoholic woman and as someone with an addictive personality, I am afraid of the misuse of drugs and alcohol, and the effects they could have on me (so I don't do drugs, rarely drink, and channel my addictions into Martial arts and other relatively benign forms).

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I am afraid of ending up as a burden on my loved ones (eg. brain-dead on life support).  When I do go, I want to be remembered by those around me for how I lived, not how I died.


----------



## OUMoose

Jenna said:
			
		

> Q: are you afraid to die, afraid of the WAY you might die, afraid of the what after?


Short answer:  No, I'm not afraid to die.
Long'ish explanation:  I came to the realization that everyone dies at some point in my travels.  Being something of a paranormal junkie, there is the curiosity to find out what happens "after", but I'm in no rush to get there.  Still got quite a few things on this plane of existance that need to be taken care of.  Am I afraid of the way I might die?  Not really.  When it's time, it's time, and I will be full on kicking/punching/biting/ripping/etc hopefully.  Guess I have a somewhat negative view on it, as I realize that everyone's road may be different, but the destination in the end is the same.

I think we, as martial artists, have a somewhat heightened understanding of mortality.  Most of us quickly learn just how fragile we really are, and how a life can be snuffed out in the blink of an eye.  It is in that small glimmer of enlightenment that we learn to live every day a bit more fully, IMO.  We find moments to slow down and look at the scenery; to stop and smell the roses if you will.  I have yet to meet a serious martial artist who didn't have a fundamental appreciation for life and all it's grandeur. 

:asian:


----------



## pstarr

Some years ago, my eight-year old son was killed when he crossed a rural road and was struck by a car.  Since that day, I have had no fear of death.  I'm in no hurry - I have a lot of things I'd like to do before I shuffle off this mortal coil - but I know that the worst thing that can happen is that I'll be reunited with my boy.  And I have no fear of that-


----------



## elder999

Jenna said:
			
		

> .... if you have ever performed that meditation or had a passing thought for your own death.... Q: are you afraid to die, afraid of the WAY you might die, afraid of the what after?



Short answer:no. May as well be afraid of the sun coming up tomorrow, for all the good it will do.:lol: 

Of course, the question is more complex than that.

I was born with deficient, malformed lungs. I also developed aplastic anemia, and spent the better part of my childhood with doctors telling my parents and me that I had &#8220;2-3&#8221; years to live-it never got to be less than that, it just became part of my yearly physical, and each and every one of the many other trips to the doctor over the years. I also grew up in the age of &#8220;duck and cover&#8221;-a very special, government sponsored meditation on horrific death, just for children-at least, children who were intelligent enough to realize what a waste of time it was.
So, by the time my pediatrician sincerely asked me (at age 15) not to dance on his grave until his family left the cemetery, I was pretty unafraid of &#8220;death&#8221; itself, and had come to view it as the certainty that it is-it&#8217;s been my observation, for what it&#8217;s worth, that many of us live all our lives maintaining the illusion that we&#8217;re going to live forever.

I have no such illusions, and  thus, no fear of death itself-whatever comes afterward is a mystery, and not to be feared by me, but met with a sense of wonder and awe.(Emptiness, heaven or reincarnation-it&#8217;s something elder999 hasn&#8217;t experienced in this life&#8230;..)

Some people say, though, that *all* fear is fear of death, and I have, in my lifetime, known fear. I&#8217;m more than a little claustrophobic, but with a lifetime of working in Level A HAZMAT suits, ordinance disposal suits, and actually operating in a foam filled containment tent wearing SCBA, I&#8217;ve obviously learned to control it&#8230;..._isomewhat_

And I also have, of course, a lifetime of working around stuff that could kill me, and everyone around me&#8230;&#8230;.

Ordinance disposal-or any work with devices-is another sort of &#8220;daily meditation on death.&#8221; Ditto a lot of other things I&#8217;ve done, pleasurable and not so pleasurable-I sailed a crippled trimaran through a (barely) tropical storm in the Caribbean when I was sixteen, and, while I was (quite sensibly) scared out of my friggin&#8217; mind, I wasn&#8217;t about to get off the boat, and I wasn&#8217;t about to die-consequently, the entire experience was almost too much fun! When you get right down to it, simply driving down a busy freeway could well rival such an experience, on any given day..


Fear of not living, though:not living life as though each day truly were my last would truly be worse than death.


----------



## Bigshadow

pstarr said:
			
		

> Some years ago, my eight-year old son was killed when he crossed a rural road and was struck by a car.  Since that day, I have had no fear of death.  I'm in no hurry - I have a lot of things I'd like to do before I shuffle off this mortal coil - but I know that the worst thing that can happen is that I'll be reunited with my boy.  And I have no fear of that-


:asian:


----------

