# Wolfgang's Principle?



## CDZ19 (Jun 11, 2007)

I'm not sure what the exact name of the principle is, but I know that after kicking banana trees (or for the western world in this day and age, heavy bags) the nerves in your shins deaden and it becomes much harder. Making your kicks that much more lethal, depending on how hard your shins are. I don't know much about it, but apparently the nerves are replaced by some kind of protein...(?)

My questions are, what is the name of this effect? Is it Wolfgang's principle?

Secondly, can you apply this principle to the rest of your body so that you become like armor (I.E. Fists, Midsection)? Or is that just what weightlifting is for?

Thirdly, can this process hinder growth if you start at an early age?

Lastly, if any of the above is true at all...is Muay Thai my best bet, or can this be applied in any other Art?


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## savior (Jun 11, 2007)

watch at 5:30, it fully explains the principal at 6:10 minutes


Fight Science is schhwweeett! Check out the second episode for muay thai I think


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2007)

Actually, deliberately deadening the nerves in your body is a bad idea.  Pain is your friend.  It tells you when you are injured.  Just because you don't FEEL the pain, doesn't mean there isn't a problem.  You could have a serious injury or infection, but because you don't feel it, you don't get it treated, and it kills you dead.  Our bodies have pain receptors for a very good reason.

A systematic pounding on the bones of the body can cause the bones to react by "thickening", adding bone growth to that part of the body.  This is a natural way that the body responds to such conditioning, as long as it is at a reasonable level and not done to an injurious level.  This, when done properly and over time, can toughen the body, cause you to feel less pain, and allow the body to withstand trauma better.  But actually deadening the nerves is a bad bad bad idea.


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## CDZ19 (Jun 11, 2007)

Ahh, so it's not deadening the nerves that I'm looking for...but hard body training. 

Is it possible to get that in Muay Thai? Or does that just come naturally, no matter what discipline you study?

Also, is it possible to get really far in a year's worth of training?

I'm not talking about those guys in the link posted above...that's beyond ridiculous, and I'd hope to even be HALF that good in ten years. Lol. All I had to say after watching that was, "WOW!" ;


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2007)

CDZ19 said:


> Ahh, so it's not deadening the nerves that I'm looking for...but hard body training.
> 
> Is it possible to get that in Muay Thai? Or does that just come naturally, no matter what discipline you study?
> 
> ...


 

Yes, but you need guidance to make sure you are doing it correctly.  It isn't too hard to overdue it and end up hurting yourself.  In the Chinese arts, you follow the pounding by rubbing in a good quality dit da jow linament, which helps you heal more quickly.  But getting a good linament is not always easy.  You can find it in places like San Francisco's Chinatown, but I have no idea if it is good quality, or some cheap crap being passed off as Dit Da Jow.  Some of the high level kung fu guys brew it themselves, and sell it, but everyone has their own recipe.

If you do this kind of training on your hands and forearms and don't do it right, you can lose the use of the fine motorskills in your hands.  You might be able to destroy a Humvee with a punch, but it gets tough to write a letter, eat a bowl of cereal, wipe your own butt and zip up your jeans.

I imagine the Muay Thai people have similar practices, but exactly what they are, I don't know.

You could probably make noticable progress in a year, but again, this is assuming you have the guidance to do it right.  Don't be too eager.  You can fall into a trap and suffer for it down the road.

The truth is, you need to ask yourself if there is a real need for this kind of practice, for yourself.  What are your goals?  Do you want to be a Muay Thai competitor?  Maybe you need some of this training, then.  Do you just want to learn a self-defense art, but not be a heavy competitor?  You probably don't need this kind of training.  Simply training on a fairly solid heavybag, and similar striking surfaces, can give you enough conditioning.  It still helps if you use a type of Dit Da Jow afterwards, but it is less critical if you are working on these kind of "softer" equipment.  But if you are kicking something solid like tree trunks, you definitely need a good linament.  

So give a good critical look at what you want out of training, before you start doing this kind of thing.  While the fantasy of having rock-hard shins and whatnot can be attractive, you really might not need it, and might not want it once you experience the reality of it.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 11, 2007)

Very fine advice for martial arts in general, *FC* :rei: (sorry, the Rep Gnomes say "No!" today ).


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## CDZ19 (Jun 11, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, but you need guidance to make sure you are doing it correctly.  It isn't too hard to overdue it and end up hurting yourself.  In the Chinese arts, you follow the pounding by rubbing in a good quality dit da jow linament, which helps you heal more quickly.  But getting a good linament is not always easy.  You can find it in places like San Francisco's Chinatown, but I have no idea if it is good quality, or some cheap crap being passed off as Dit Da Jow.  Some of the high level kung fu guys brew it themselves, and sell it, but everyone has their own recipe.
> 
> If you do this kind of training on your hands and forearms and don't do it right, you can lose the use of the fine motorskills in your hands.  You might be able to destroy a Humvee with a punch, but it gets tough to write a letter, eat a bowl of cereal, wipe your own butt and zip up your jeans.
> 
> ...




Lol, if anything I just don't want to have a body like mush anymore. That and seeing as how at this point, I'm getting into all kinds of new hobbies...it wouldn't hurt to have another cool set of abilities as well. 

To be perfectly honest with you, you're absolute right, after reading your post and thinking about it for a while...I might not need it as badly as an acutal Muay Thai competitor, or any other actual competitor of any other discipline for that matter. Which is what I'm not aspiring to be...at the moment.

Right now, my main concerns are:

1. Trying something new
2. Getting stronger in the process as I don't "traditional" sports anymore...I still want to stay in shape
3. Being able to defend myself from your normal attacker

While I think a little bit of that training may be good...it's not necessary to push it to the extreme like a competitor might...maybe later on should it even appeal to me in that manner.

Make no mistake about it, be it Muay Thai or any other discipline I decide to get into...I will be asking MANY questions about this type of overall body conditioning to my teacher. 

Man, I've only been here a few days and already the information I'm getting before I REALLY get into MA has been nothing short of invaluable. 

Thanks a lot.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2007)

CDZ19 said:


> Thanks a lot.


 
You're welcome.  Just be smart about your training, especially with this kind of conditioning thing.  The short term benefits may not outweight the long-term problems that you might develop, and you might not even realize you are doing it until the damage is done.

A little historical perspective might also be appropriate.  In places like Old China, for example, like 200 years ago and such, I think people had a much greater need to defend their own lives, than we do today.  So that kind of training was worth it.  And most people probably didn't have professions where they needed the fine motor skills.  They didn't spend time at a computer typing, and such, so maybe they could tolerate the injury, because it meant they could defend themselves better.  And they also developed the medicines to minimize the injury sustained in the training.  But times have changed.  Most of us don't need to defend ourselves frequently or ever, and developing that kind of toughness isn't necessary.  

again, if you do it right, you can do it with little real damage, but just be aware of the dangers and be cautious.


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## savior (Jun 12, 2007)

Muay Thai is a great martial art, one of the best in my opinion.

Asking questions is a good thing, especially about body hardening, but let me give you one word of advice, NEVER use the "rolling-pin-on-shins strategy" or you will find yourself in a wheel chair in a few years.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2007)

savior said:


> Muay Thai is a great martial art, one of the best in my opinion.
> 
> Asking questions is a good thing, especially about body hardening, but let me give you one word of advice, NEVER use the "rolling-pin-on-shins strategy" or you will find yourself in a wheel chair in a few years.


 

Thanks for jumping in.  Is that something that kills the nerves?


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## CDZ19 (Jun 12, 2007)

What other arts do they teach this type of training?

I know for a fact that Judo, Jiu-Jitsu and probably Aikido don't seeing as how they don't have the need for striking. 

But I could be wrong...


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## savior (Jun 13, 2007)

The pin-on-knee strategy is an old practice in which the thai fighter would take a rolling pin or bottle, and roll the object up and down their shins.. at first, it seemed like a good idea because the constant rolling effect helped develop calcium deposits on top of the shin, thus making the shin harder.. however, as time grew on, the once indestructable shins became brittle and often broke..

moral of the story: condition your shins by just kicking a heavy bag


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## CDZ19 (Jun 13, 2007)

savior said:


> The pin-on-knee strategy is an old practice in which the thai fighter would take a rolling pin or bottle, and roll the object up and down their shins.. at first, it seemed like a good idea because the constant rolling effect helped develop calcium deposits on top of the shin, thus making the shin harder.. however, as time grew on, the once indestructable shins became brittle and often broke..
> 
> moral of the story: condition your shins by just kicking a heavy bag



Well that takes care of that...but what about the fists? Keep hitting a heavy bag as well?

Is hitting sand bad for the knuckles?

Also, is Muay Thai the only art that such training takes place, or are there other disciplines?


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