# Why the opening action??



## karatejj (Jul 13, 2017)

Hey guys!

I am having difficulty understanding the big argument on this forum and all the hate. Sifu KPM is teaching me a lot with his wing chun boxing channel- I just love those lessons because boxing is where I started and where I still am best if I am honest.

But then LFJ wing chun is seen in video not looking same as everyone else wing chun. Why is this difference? I don't understand it because I am learn from both guys. 

I heard interesting comment from LFJ on the forum about his view of the opening action of first form SLT?? Well I thought this might be good way to resolve the difference in views we have here, and to come to an agreement about the system we share?

Why is it you do the first action of SLT? What does it mean to you're system of WC???


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## karatejj (Jul 13, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> The thing is, you haven't seen LFJ's Ving Tsun because he doesn't dare to show it or he's shy. One or the other anyways, we haven't seen his ubersupreme Ving Tsun.



Thought he post some videos? I seen a few anyway. Looked different to wing chun I do, no close range for starters!!


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## DanT (Jul 13, 2017)

What opening action are you referring to?


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## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Thought he post some videos? I seen a few anyway. Looked different to wing chun I do, no close range for starters!!


He hasn't. It's phantom WC.

But it's Uber effective!


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I am having difficulty understanding the big argument on this forum and all the hate. Sifu KPM is teaching me a lot with his wing chun boxing channel- I just love those lessons because boxing is where I started and where I still am best if I am honest.
> 
> ...



In the WC I was taught the first action is a double grab/pull back fists as feet go from together to neutral stance.


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> He hasn't. It's phantom WC.
> 
> But it's Uber effective!




There has been some videos posted man, have a look back though the old threads! I can't find a link now, sorry.


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> In the WC I was taught the first action is a double grab/pull back fists as feet go from together to neutral stance.



Cool interpretation man, I like it! So you are getting a kind of front cross choke hold with this move??


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Cool interpretation man, I like it! So you are getting a kind of front cross choke hold with this move??


No, the arms don't cross. It's like a lapel grab and pull back /sink to stance. Once in stance it's the cross arms down/up to attain center.(although there are also a few practical applications for this besides getting center too)


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> There has been some videos posted man, have a look back though the old threads! I can't find a link now, sorry.


No, he has posted videos of other guys he says do something similar. Never him or those he trains with.


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## Danny T (Jul 14, 2017)

The first actions are about:
Clearing the mind, relaxing the body, pushing the elbows forward while keeping the arms and hands relaxed. Opening the stance, hip structure, training elbow position, defining the centerline, defining the 6 major gates, pushing & pulling with the elbow...and a lot more.


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> No, he has posted videos of other guys he says do something similar. Never him or those he trains with.



Don't see why it needs to be him? As long as it is what he does, then complaining is just hating IMO!

I have not post pictures on me training. Have you post pictures of yourself?


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> No, the arms don't cross. It's like a lapel grab and pull back /sink to stance. Once in stance it's the cross arms down/up to attain center.(although there are also a few practical applications for this besides getting center too)



Sounds not like wing chun I know. Do you have video or pics to show what you mean (does not need to be of you!!)


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Danny T said:


> The first actions are about:
> Clearing the mind, relaxing the body, pushing the elbows forward while keeping the arms and hands relaxed. Opening the stance, hip structure, training elbow position, defining the centerline, defining the 6 major gates, pushing & pulling with the elbow...and a lot more.



Wow dude, sounds complex and deep stuff! I don't have so much technique stuff in my wing chun.


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## Danny T (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Wow dude, sounds complex and deep stuff! I don't have so much technique stuff in my wing chun.


It is just wing chun 101


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Sounds not like wing chun I know. Do you have video or pics to show what you mean (does not need to be of you!!)


It's kind of a long story. I did show a video of my slt some months ago, but it's gone now. 

PM if you want the long version.


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## Juany118 (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> He hasn't. It's phantom WC.
> 
> But it's Uber effective!


Actually over time he has posted a number of tutorials of Weng Chun Kuen, Tang Yik Dummy, and pole work etc.  If you watch the videos most recently referenced you can actually rather easily logic out how to find the videos.


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Actually over time he has posted a number of tutorials of Weng Chun Kuen, Tang Yik Dummy, and pole work etc.  If you watch the videos most recently referenced you can actually rather easily logic out how to find the videos.


Ok, links. 

I've asked him for videos of himself or his school lots of times, I'm pretty sure there aren't any.


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## Juany118 (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Ok, links.
> 
> I've asked him for videos of himself or his school lots of times, I'm pretty sure there aren't any.



I am not going to be your research assistant any longer since when videos are posted you figure out a way to dismiss them anywho but I will give you a hint (which tbh I am surprised I have to give because it seems quite simple really).  If you watch the videos we have immediate access to you will hear a name.  Then you just go to this thing on Youtube we call a "search" bar.  You then enter that name with the name "wing chun".  After that magic happens and more videos appear.


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## wckf92 (Jul 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Actually over time he has posted a number of tutorials of Weng Chun Kuen, Tang Yik Dummy, and pole work etc.  If you watch the videos most recently referenced you can actually rather easily logic out how to find the videos.



You two are talking about two different people I think. 
MD is inquiring about LFJ
Juany is talking about KPM


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

LOL. Being condencending and clueless at the same time isn't a flattering combination.

LFJ has never shown himself or his school in the entirety of his tenure here.


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> You two are talking about two different people I think.
> MD is inquiring about LFJ
> Juany is talking about KPM


I don't know why he would assume I was talking about kpm when his name hasn't come up. If that's the case he wasn't following the conversation very well.


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## Juany118 (Jul 14, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> You two are talking about two different people I think.
> MD is inquiring about LFJ
> Juany is talking about KPM


Oh if I misunderstood, my bad because indeed I am speaking of KPM and since his videos have been shown more than a few times around here I was confused


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> No, the arms don't cross. It's like a lapel grab and pull back /sink to stance. Once in stance it's the cross arms down/up to attain center.(although there are also a few practical applications for this besides getting center too)


@T_Ray 

I see you hit the 'disagree' button without leaving any sort of follow up.

What precisely are you disagreeing with here?


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> It's kind of a long story. I did show a video of my slt some months ago, but it's gone now.
> 
> PM if you want the long version.



Thanks man, have sent you ar PM!


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> LOL. Being condencending and clueless at the same time isn't a flattering combination.
> 
> LFJ has never shown himself or his school in the entirety of his tenure here.



Im confused why he would need to show himself?? Hes showed videos of the wing chun he does. Should be enough for anyone?


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## T_Ray (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> @T_Ray
> 
> I see you hit the 'disagree' button without leaving any sort of follow up.
> 
> What precisely are you disagreeing with here?


For various reasons I tend to keep my involvement on this forum to a minimum... usually to "agree" or "disagree", "like" or "dislike"....But to clarify a little, I will add that I disagree that those opening movements are in the form in order to "attain centre" (whatever that means exactly?), or that they have specific applications.


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

Maybe not in the WC you were taught.

Cross arms down then up, separate and bring back.

The cross is on centerline, training the body to feel where it is. One application is if someone grabs the wrists low. Cross and bring it up to break the grip.


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## Callen (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Im confused why he would need to show himself??


He doesn't. Likewise, no one else on here needs to post videos of themselves in order to share opinions or discuss the concepts of the system either.


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Callen said:


> He doesn't. Likewise, no one else on here needs to post videos of themselves in order to share opinions or discuss the concepts of the system either.



Agree. This dude tells me in PM he post video here in mid 1990s and that it was deleted (no *** sherlok). But he posted one so seems all ok to him.

But he still demands a video of this LFJ guy asap, demanding in unfriendly way.

He sounds crazy man!


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Agree. This dude tells me in PM he post video here in mid 1990s and that it was deleted (no *** sherlok). But he posted one so seems all ok to him.
> 
> But he still demands a video of this LFJ guy asap, demanding in unfriendly way.
> 
> He sounds crazy man!



Ya.. I responded to your pm.


Today at 9:53 AM



*karatejjOrange Belt*
Hi, would love to see you're form if you can send a link?

Thanks
kjj

KARATEJJ, TODAY AT 9:53 AMREPORT
REPLY
Today at 9:58 AM



*Martial DPurple Belt*
The video has been deleted. 

Basically, I trained WC for 4 years in the mid 90s, but back then, before the internet, the idea of lineage never crossed my mind. So I posted a video of me doing SLT so the experts here could see it and tell me what lineage it was. Turns out it was an IP man variation probably from the Fred Wong school, although it's not identical.

MARTIAL D, TODAY AT 9:58 AMREPORT
REPLY
Today at 10:39 AM



*karatejjOrange Belt*
I thought you said you had it too send?

KARATEJJ, TODAY AT 10:39 AMREPORT
REPLY
Today at 10:48 AM



*Martial DPurple Belt*
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

MARTIAL D, TODAY AT 10:48 AMREPORT
REPLY
34 minutes ago



*karatejjOrange Belt*
1. Im not sure there was martial talk in mid 90s

2. mid 90s is lot longer than a few months, ur changin you're story?? Seems odd

3. you said u would send me the long version, assumed this was long version of the video, not long version of unlikely story, lol

KARATEJJ, 34 MINUTES AGOREPORT
REPLY
32 minutes ago



*karatejjOrange Belt*
so you are sayin that you post a video in mid 1990s (20+ years ago, lol) on martial talk, and that it isn't around any more. You didn't keep any copy, and sounds like u not longer training wing chun, but you like talk about it a LOT?

You think LFJ is a bad guy because he has not post video of himself when u demand it, lol

What is ur problem with LFJ again? U sound crazy man!

KARATEJJ, 32 MINUTES AGOREPORT
REPLY
7 minutes ago



*Martial DPurple Belt*
LOL

It's becoming evident you have trouble reading. 

Have a nice day


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

so you keeps video from 1990s to post here on MT

Then it gets deleted from MT for mystery reason (you havent bin here long, maybe mods would tell us why it happened?)

and mean while you have deleted original video that you keep since 1990s, while demanding videos of other people (why??) and get insulting when they not provide it.

You still sound crazy man!!


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## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

*facepalm*


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

post your video. host it somewhere and post it. Or stop demanding other people provide videos to you


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Callen said:


> He doesn't. Likewise, no one else on here needs to post videos of themselves in order to share opinions or discuss the concepts of the system either.



Agree. This 4 year 90s wing chun trainee "Martial D" seem to have chased away a very knowledge guy with lots to share by hounding him for videos and being rude. 

Great job man. Well done


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> *facepalm*



Still crazy


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Maybe not in the WC you were taught.
> 
> Cross arms down then up, separate and bring back.
> 
> The cross is on centerline, training the body to feel where it is. One application is if someone grabs the wrists low. Cross and bring it up to break the grip.



Now you say the opposite what you said before



			
				Martial D said:
			
		

> No, the arms don't cross


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## Phobius (Jul 14, 2017)

Take a deep breath. Get some sleep. Life will feel a lot better tomorrow.

No need to get worked up on a forum, no matter how angry we get forums will just continue to slap us anyways. Better to smile and take those slaps like we are the boss.


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## KPM (Jul 15, 2017)

Callen said:


> He doesn't. Likewise, no one else on here needs to post videos of themselves in order to share opinions or discuss the concepts of the system either.


 
I agree!  However,  anyone that consistently tells others that there wing Chun is broken or wrong, and that is very critical of others when they post video, and yet are never willing to post video of themselves....IMHO, these people lose some credibility and respect for what they might have to say.  If you are going to "talk the talk" on a forum, you better be willing to "walk the talk" as well! Which one a forum means sharing video of yourself showing that you actually do wing chun!


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## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> I agree!  However,  anyone that consistently tells others that there wing Chun is broken or wrong, and that is very critical of others when they post video, and yet are never willing to post video of themselves....IMHO, these people lose some credibility and respect for what they might have to say.  If you are going to "talk the talk" on a forum, you better be willing to "walk the talk" as well! Which one a forum means sharing video of yourself showing that you actually do wing chun!



I'm not sure about this dude. It is great you have video showing you're wing chun boxing and I learn a lot! But I also learn a lot about different way from reading described by LFJ.

Why do anyone need lose credibility not posting video?

So you guys disagree about best way for wing chun. Big deal, who cares? Looks stupid too keep argue about it!!


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## KPM (Jul 16, 2017)

karatejj said:


> I'm not sure about this dude. It is great you have video showing you're wing chun boxing and I learn a lot! But I also learn a lot about different way from reading described by LFJ.
> 
> Why do anyone need lose credibility not posting video?
> 
> So you guys disagree about best way for wing chun. Big deal, who cares? Looks stupid too keep argue about it!!




No it looks stupid to comment about things you no nothing about.  You don't know LFJ's track record here and how he has behaved in the past. That is, unless you do and you are simply back to troll us all again with another fake identity!


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## LFJ (Jul 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> No it looks stupid to comment about things you no nothing about.



Good you realize this. So, stop posting to tell me and others what is or isn't WSLVT.


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## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> No it looks stupid to comment about things you no nothing about.  You don't know LFJ's track record here and how he has behaved in the past. That is, unless you do and you are simply back to troll us all again with another fake identity!



WTF are u talking about man?? 

I got wrong thread before. Both you guys, why the opening action?? Give some answer!


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## LFJ (Jul 16, 2017)

You said you already read my views on it.


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## Martial D (Jul 16, 2017)

You're both wasting your time. This guy can't make head or tails of basic English.


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## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

Martial D said:


> You're both wasting your time. This guy can't make head or tails of basic English.



I notice you're answer was full circle total opposite of itself. So speak for ur self man!!


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## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

LFJ said:


> You said you already read my views on it.



I did man, just wanting to get all in one place so we can sort this stuff out and stop argue.

Plus I forgot what you say exactly, run it buy me again??


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## KPM (Jul 16, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Maybe not in the WC you were taught.
> 
> Cross arms down then up, separate and bring back.
> 
> The cross is on centerline, training the body to feel where it is. One application is if someone grabs the wrists low. Cross and bring it up to break the grip.



I was taught something similar.  At a very basic level crossing the arms teaches the beginner to define the centerline.  This was done because mirrors were not typically available.  Pulling the hands back to the sides is really just to set you up for the next section.  You can interpret that as starting to teach the lop sau motion as well, and after you have learned the closing section it can be seen as a wrist grab escape in concert with the Teut sau motion.

Now I am sure that LFJ would laugh at this since his VT is so extra special and different from everyone else's!


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## Martial D (Jul 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> I was taught something similar.  At a very basic level crossing the arms teaches the beginner to define the centerline.  This was done because mirrors were not typically available.  Pulling the hands back to the sides is really just to set you up for the next section.  You can interpret that as starting to teach the lop sau motion as well, and after you have learned the closing section it can be seen as a wrist grab escape in concert with the Teut sau motion.
> 
> Now I am sure that LFJ would laugh at this since his VT is so extra special and different from everyone else's!


LOL at this t_ray guy. Obviously he was there when we both were learning Wing Chun, that he should be able to disagree that we were taught a certain thing. 

Some people on this board are downright hilarious in their passive aggressiveness.


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## Juany118 (Jul 16, 2017)

karatejj said:


> I'm not sure about this dude. It is great you have video showing you're wing chun boxing and I learn a lot! But I also learn a lot about different way from reading described by LFJ.
> 
> Why do anyone need lose credibility not posting video?
> 
> So you guys disagree about best way for wing chun. Big deal, who cares? Looks stupid too keep argue about it!!



His point, I believe is this...

Some people 'round these parts demand to see videos justifying almost every description of other's lineages.

On occasion they will produce videos themselves BUT they produce their own videos on demand with far less frequency, even when requested.


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## KPM (Jul 16, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> His point, I believe is this...
> 
> Some people 'round these parts demand to see videos justifying almost every description of other's lineages.
> 
> On occasion they will produce videos themselves BUT they produce their own videos on demand with far less frequency, even when requested.



Yeah.  Try like never in LFJ's case!  He never has and never will.  But he is unwilling to open himself to the same kind of criticism he so freely aims at others!


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## anerlich (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> No, the arms don't cross. It's like a lapel grab and pull back /sink to stance. Once in stance it's the cross arms down/up to attain center.(although there are also a few practical applications for this besides getting center too)



The part where you cross the arms low, high and then draw the fists back, though I doubt it was included in the form for that purpose, in my lineage has a very strong resemblance to the arm movements in the basic jiu jitsu cross collar choke from guard. I teach a fair number of my instructor's wing chun students jiu jitsu, and I always refer them to that part of the form as a reference for the cross collar choke. It works.


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## anerlich (Jul 17, 2017)

The main reason people don't post videos here is that they open themselves up to criticism and flamage. Mostly undeserved. Who needs that?


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## LFJ (Jul 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> Yeah.  Try like never in LFJ's case!  He never has and never will.  But he is unwilling to open himself to the same kind of criticism he so freely aims at others!



I have never demanded video from anyone.

Just about no one on this forum has posted videos of themselves.

And, I open myself to criticism from people who know what they're talking about.

If you think the opening action tells you where your center is, or breaks wrist grabs, then you only know hair and skin.

What could you possibly tell anyone about VT?


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## KPM (Jul 17, 2017)

anerlich said:


> The main reason people don't post videos here is that they open themselves up to criticism and flamage. Mostly undeserved. Who needs that?



No one needs that!  But he who is willing to dish it out should also be willing to take it!  And LFJ is obviously unwilling to take what he is willing to dish out!


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## SOD-WC (Jul 17, 2017)

ive only started WC not long ago but i always thought the opening action WAS to find the centre line?
if its something else hidden or not well known in really curious about what else could it be!!!


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## KPM (Jul 17, 2017)

LFJ said:


> I have never demanded video from anyone.
> 
> Just about no one on this forum has posted videos of themselves.
> 
> ...




So enlighten us all Master!  What does it represent in your uber special advanced VT?

And, BTW I did state that what I was saying was basic.  Yet you and you "yes man" disagreed.  Funny thing is that Joy disagreed as well, and I'm pretty sure I first learned this from him nearly 30 years ago when I was initially working on SNT.  So I sense a strong bias here from more than one person.  I expect at this point it wouldn't matter what I write.  You guys will find a way to disagree with it!   And IMHO, to just disagree with someone without explaining why you disagree and providing your alternate explanation is pretty low,unfriendly", and not at all in the spirit of a Discussion forum.


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## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> ive only started WC not long ago but i always thought the opening action WAS to find the centre line?
> if its something else hidden or not well known in really curious about what else could it be!!!



It is, but it also has application. One such is to break the grip on your wrists, another (as mentioned by anerlich) is a collar choke. A third would be a low arm trap/block.


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## KPM (Jul 17, 2017)

Strange?  I just noticed that the "dislike" on my post was from a new account for "vajramusti5".  Joy's original account still exists.  So was that you Joy?  Or is someone trying to impersonate you?


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## SOD-WC (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> It is, but it also has application. One such is to break the grip on your wrists, another (as mentioned by anerlich) is a collar choke. A third would be a low arm trap/block.


thanks, i can see the application of the other two but need to actually see if i can do a collar choke in that position. im thinking more of a flying v into someones neck like a wrestling move LOL


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## KPM (Jul 17, 2017)

Double post


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## Danny T (Jul 17, 2017)

In my training Forms are a mnemonic teaching device, some have multiple aspects or layers.
Likewise for the opening movements and positions of SLT. It isn't about an application.


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## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> I was taught something similar.  At a very basic level crossing the arms teaches the beginner to define the centerline.  This was done because mirrors were not typically available.  Pulling the hands back to the sides is really just to set you up for the next section.  You can interpret that as starting to teach the lop sau motion as well, and after you have learned the closing section it can be seen as a wrist grab escape in concert with the Teut sau motion.
> 
> Now I am sure that LFJ would laugh at this since his VT is so extra special and different from everyone else's!



Cool, good anser. Now we are egtting somewhere!


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## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

anerlich said:


> The part where you cross the arms low, high and then draw the fists back, though I doubt it was included in the form for that purpose, in my lineage has a very strong resemblance to the arm movements in the basic jiu jitsu cross collar choke from guard. I teach a fair number of my instructor's wing chun students jiu jitsu, and I always refer them to that part of the form as a reference for the cross collar choke. It works.



Exact what I said!!

Then he said but hands don't cross, contradict himself!

And lol hes agree with you're post ROFL


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## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> No one needs that!  But he who is willing to dish it out should also be willing to take it!  And LFJ is obviously unwilling to take what he is willing to dish out!



Does LFJ demand video from folks? I never seen??


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## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> ive only started WC not long ago but i always thought the opening action WAS to find the centre line?
> if its something else hidden or not well known in really curious about what else could it be!!!



Me too


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## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> So enlighten us all Master!  What does it represent in your uber special advanced VT?
> 
> And, BTW I did state that what I was saying was basic.  Yet you and you "yes man" disagreed.  Funny thing is that Joy disagreed as well, and I'm pretty sure I first learned this from him nearly 30 years ago when I was initially working on SNT.  So I sense a strong bias here from more than one person.  I expect at this point it wouldn't matter what I write.  You guys will find a way to disagree with it!   And IMHO, to just disagree with someone without explaining why you disagree and providing your alternate explanation is pretty low,unfriendly", and not at all in the spirit of a Discussion forum.



Agree, people should go more detail. 

Can you give more than basic interp explain above? I want to learn more about wing chun and ur about the only guy willing to share it!!


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## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> It is, but it also has application. One such is to break the grip on your wrists, another (as mentioned by anerlich) is a collar choke. A third would be a low arm trap/block.



Huh? I mentioned collar choke and you said no because wrist don't cross??



			
				KarateJJ said:
			
		

> Cool interpretation man, I like it! So you are getting a kind of front cross choke hold with this move??





Martial D said:


> No, the arms don't cross. It's like a lapel grab and pull back /sink to stance. Once in stance it's the cross arms down/up to attain center.(although there are also a few practical applications for this besides getting center too)



explain please?


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## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

Danny T said:


> In my training Forms are a mnemonic teaching device, some have multiple aspects or layers.
> Likewise for the opening movements and positions of SLT. It isn't about an application.



Cool, whats this multiple layers teaching? Please go more deep because I only have basic understanding it looks like. You guys know way more!!


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## wckf92 (Jul 17, 2017)

@karatejj 
1. have you asked your instructor/Sifu about your questions regarding "the opening move"? 

2. tell us your thoughts on it. What do you think it is for?

3. What style/version or lineage of WC are you learning?


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## KPM (Jul 17, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Does LFJ demand video from folks? I never seen??



In the past LFJ has indeed refused to believe what someone has said if they could not produce video to back it up.  The most recent example on another thread was when a prominent TWC master said he had no problem using his style in competition and LFJ refused to take his word for it without video. But the bigger issue is that LFJ freely and frequently criticizes videos of others but has refused when asked to provide video of himself showing how he would do it better, or even to illustrate or clarify something he has been saying about his system.  He feels free to hide behind a set of initials, be argumentative and critical of others, and never really say who he is or where he studies.  He wants to be seen as the authority on WSLVT on this forum, but is unwilling to share any video of himself that shows he can actually "walk the talk".  So IMHO, he lacks credibility here.


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## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Huh? I mentioned collar choke and you said no because wrist don't cross??
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just stop responding to my posts. Explaining things to you is a waste of both of our time, as you can't understand basic English.

This will be my last reply to you.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Just stop responding to my posts. Explaining things to you is a waste of both of our time, as you can't understand basic English.
> 
> This will be my last reply to you.



Its ok dude, I won't keep stomping you wit you're own mistake. I can be teh bigger man. If u too ashame to talk to me afterward..well that you're problem, LOL


----------



## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> thanks, i can see the application of the other two but need to actually see if i can do a collar choke in that position. im thinking more of a flying v into someones neck like a wrestling move LOL


Well, the way I was taught it was a little different than most WC I've seen.

Most seem to cross up by rotating the arms in such a way that the left arm is in front on the bottom, and when you cross up the right arm is in front.

The way I do it, the right wrist circles underneath so the left wrist is in front the entire time. This makes the grip break more effective, and lends itself better to the collar choke.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> @karatejj
> 1. have you asked your instructor/Sifu about your questions regarding "the opening move"?
> 
> 2. tell us your thoughts on it. What do you think it is for?
> ...



I ask and he says it define centre line, like some other guy here say. 

I not really have too many thought about it. All I know LFJ say some place that too understand it is a mark of the real wing chun. Other knowlege sifu like KPM and Danny T also refer to the "basic understand" and teh "deeper knowledge". So have to say I really curious now!!

I am learn a fusion of wing chun and boxing. Searching for it what was brought me too here!


----------



## LFJ (Jul 17, 2017)

The action is not an application of any sort; neither a freeing hand nor collar choke. (Are you choking children or little people?)

It imparts strategic information regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking.

It's directly related to the last three actions, but not as freeing hands, which is also directly related to the action that ends almost every section of CK, which is also directly related to the BJ action that goes underneath, which is all related to _daan-chi-sau_, _pun-sau_, and _laap-sau_.

In fact, it's a main conceptual thread that runs through the entire system.

Now, why would a wrist-grab escape  be that important?? It's not! No one has ever grabbed my wrist while I was taking a leak.

That is skin and hair people came up with looking at the shapes while having no information!

It's not a nifty self-defense technique. It's imparting strategic information on a way of free fighting.


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 17, 2017)

LFJ said:


> The action is not an application of any sort; neither a freeing hand nor collar choke. (Are you choking children or little people?)
> 
> It imparts strategic information regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking.
> 
> ...



Cycling the hands...
above, underneath, etc...


----------



## LFJ (Jul 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> In the past LFJ has indeed refused to believe what someone has said if they could not produce video to back it up.  The most recent example on another thread was when a prominent TWC master said he had no problem using his style in competition and LFJ refused to take his word for it without video.



Wrong.

The thing is, he was acting as if he could brush off any criticism by claiming to have been a competitive fighter.

He does that to people all the time. But, but I was unable to find any record to support his claim, written or otherwise.

When asked for proof, he stopped talking.

Now, I don't claim to be anything. I just discuss the system as I know it. I've never demanded video from anyone, and don't know or care who any of you are "in real life".

No one is required to make their information public, especially not because some tough guy on the internet says you lack credibility if you don't show your face. That's just deflecting possibly valid criticism, which is what you get when you openly share your views on a discussion forum.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

LFJ said:


> The action is not an application of any sort; neither a freeing hand nor collar choke. (Are you choking children or little people?)
> 
> It imparts strategic information regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking.



Every single movement in SLT has fighting application.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Every single movement in SLT has fighting application.



That people made up by looking at the actions without explanation and thinking, hmm, what could that be?


----------



## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

LFJ said:


> That people made up by looking at the actions without explanation and thinking, hmm, what could that be?


If it works, it works. It doesn't matter much to me if it falls within the confines of your special version of wslvt.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Every single movement in SLT has fighting application.


@T_Ray

I can't help but wonder about the efficacy of a system where the movements you train do not translate to fighting application. 

There is already a name for that sort of movement: Dance


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 17, 2017)

@Martial D
I noticed you just wrote to T_Ray...but I didn't see his post(?)...did I miss it?

edit: disregard...I just saw where he disagreed with one of your posts.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> @Martial D
> I noticed you just wrote to T_Ray...but I didn't see his post(?)...did I miss it?
> 
> edit: disregard...I just saw where he disagreed with one of your posts.


Ya, he seems to be one of those passive aggressive types. Will disagree but too intimidated to actually post a response.


----------



## T_Ray (Jul 17, 2017)

#27


----------



## LFJ (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> If it works, it works. It doesn't matter much to me if it falls within the confines of your special version of wslvt.



Most application ideas that are made up based on what an action looks like rather than knowledge of a  sound fighting strategy usually don't work.



Martial D said:


> I can't help but wonder about the efficacy of a system where the movements you train do not translate to fighting application.



They translate to fighting strategy and particular skills to carry it out, not "here's what to do when someone grabs your wrist".


----------



## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Most application ideas that are made up based on what an action looks like rather than knowledge of a  sound fighting strategy usually don't work.
> 
> 
> 
> They translate to fighting strategy and particular skills to carry it out, not "here's what to do when someone grabs your wrist".


Well, all things considered, I'll take your opinion on this matter under advisement, for a second, before I toss it in the bin with the other unsupported BS the internet has given me today.

'fighting strategy and ways to carry it out' huh? But definitely not application? ROFL.

It seems to me that you are learning within a limited scope if you haven't been taught any application. And you say other people's wc is incomplete/broken?


----------



## karatejj (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> 'fighting strategy and ways to carry it out' huh? But definitely not application? ROFL.



Hey dude, not sure what ur find funny?

He just sayin it not set up fake type kung fu moves like monkey steal peach, more like buildin you're skills. At least that how I reed it. Not sure what so hard to understan here, lol


----------



## LFJ (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> It seems to me that you are learning within a limited scope if you haven't been taught any application.



Why would you think a concept-based approach would be the more limited understanding of actions than "this is a wrist-grab escape"?

How often is someone grabbing your wrist while your hand is in front of your crotch?

Sounds like opportunities for use of this escape are pretty limited.

Oh, it can also be a standing collar-choke? Another high-frequency move, right?

That's why it's the very first thing taught in the first form to a beginner. High-percentage, too, right?


----------



## DanT (Jul 17, 2017)

If you are referring to the crossing hands motion at the beginning of all 3 forms, it is referred to as Gao Cha Sao.

It's primary purpose is to define the centre line.

It also functions to teach the limits of the central line in certain Wing Chun lineages.

Some schools teach it as a block for certain kicks. (I don't).


----------



## KPM (Jul 17, 2017)

LFJ said:


> The action is not an application of any sort; neither a freeing hand nor collar choke. (Are you choking children or little people?)
> 
> It imparts strategic information regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking.
> 
> ...




Yeah thanks! You go on and on and say very little.  All that above and yet you never describe what this "strategic information" actually is, or what this "main conceptual thread" is.  Once again you try to come off sounding like an expert but actual said very little of any real substance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 17, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Why is it you do the first action of SLT? What does it mean to you're system of WC???


I was taught that the 1st move of SNT is just to "send energy from your body through your shoulder joint, elbow joint, wrist joint, and all the way to your finger tip". In order to do so, your

- shoulder joint,
- elbow joint,
- wrist joint

have to be relax enough to let the energy to flow through. This training will also be repeated in the 3rd WC Biu Tze form that you strike your finger tip forward instead.

As far as the application, it can be used as:

- Your left hand grab on your opponent's right wrist.
- Your right hand grab on your opponent's left wrist.
- You press his left arm against his own right arm.
- You free your left hand and ...


----------



## LFJ (Jul 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> Yeah thanks! You go on and on and say very little.  All that above and yet you never describe what this "strategic information" actually is, or what this "main conceptual thread" is.



I said regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking. It's not a "if they do this, you do that" that you can get over a forum. Best learned in person.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 17, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Why would you think a concept-based approach would be the more limited understanding of actions than "this is a wrist-grab escape"?


It's more than just that, but that is an application of the movement, and it works.


> How often is someone grabbing your wrist while your hand is in front of your crotch?


Seriously? People grab the wrists low a lot in street altercations. You obviously grew up(or are growing up) in a much different sort of neighborhood than I did.



> Sounds like opportunities for use of this escape are pretty limited.


Something is certainly 'limited' here, I'll give you that.



> Oh, it can also be a standing collar-choke? Another high-frequency move, right?
> 
> That's why it's the very first thing taught in the first form to a beginner. High-percentage, too, right?


Yes, yes it can. SLT has many layers. Sucks for you you are learning from some mystical guru that never actually comes out and explains anything, yet instead smugly hides behind nebulous abstract concepts as if it were some hidden wisdom passed down from god himself.

...or maybe that's just you. I dunno. Fact is that escape and that choke both work, I've used them both many times..and honestly I will take two functional applications over a whole years worth of your smug musings any day of the week.

Luckily for me there are functional applications for ALL the movements in SLT, so I don't need to settle for just the two. Maybe one day I'll teach them to you.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 17, 2017)

Martial D said:


> LFJ said:
> 
> 
> > How often is someone grabbing your wrist while your hand is in front of your crotch?
> ...



Sounds like a rough neighborhood!


----------



## SOD-WC (Jul 18, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I was taught that the 1st move of SNT is just to "send energy from your body through your shoulder joint, elbow joint, wrist joint, and all the way to your finger tip". In order to do so, your
> 
> - shoulder joint,
> - elbow joint,
> ...



Is there a feeling or a cue of some sort when u can finally relax those 3 joints to send the energy to the finger tip? i still struggle at relaxing my shoulders 
also i havent started the other 2 forms so im not gona even start to try to understand them.


----------



## yak sao (Jul 18, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> Is there a feeling or a cue of some sort when u can finally relax those 3 joints to send the energy to the finger tip? i still struggle at relaxing my shoulders
> also i havent started the other 2 forms so im not gona even start to try to understand them.



Think of slinging water off the ends of your fingers.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jul 18, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Thought he post some videos? I seen a few anyway. Looked different to wing chun I do, no close range for starters!!



I am not sure who you thought you saw, but I have never seen LFJ share a video here.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 18, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I am not sure who you thought you saw, but I have never seen LFJ share a video here.



You had me on ignore, genius.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 18, 2017)

yak sao said:


> Think of slinging water off the ends of your fingers.


My sifu explained it as a firehose. He showed us all a cool party trick to demonstrate this principle;put your hand on my shoulder, and directly resist as I try to collapse your arm at the elbow. Of course he could easily collapse it.
Now imagine your arm is a fire hose, firing out water at full velocity. Of course now the energy is forward instead of up, so the arm becomes difficult or impossible to collapse. 
I've won many a free beer with that...


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 18, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> i still struggle at relaxing my shoulders.


To rotate one arm forward while rotate the other arm backward can help you to relax your shoulder joint.


----------



## SOD-WC (Jul 18, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To rotate one arm forward while rotate the other arm backward can help you to relax your shoulder joint.



Do you mean rotating at the shoulder joint while my arm moves out?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 18, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> Do you mean rotating at the shoulder joint while my arm moves out?


Like this.


----------



## geezer (Jul 18, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Like this.



So _that's _how Biu Tze is supposed to conclude!


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 18, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Like this.



Ha!!!...a former dance move of mine from the 80's!!! Hahahahahaha


----------



## SOD-WC (Jul 18, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Like this.


ahhhhh now i get it thanks!!!! 

is that also a secret WC move to confuse and finish multiple ppl off in one swift move LOL


----------



## karatejj (Jul 19, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Like this.



Think this not too much too do wit wing shun!!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 19, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Think this not too much too do wit wing shun!!





SOD-WC said:


> i still struggle at relaxing my shoulders ...


It helps to loose up the shoulder joint. It has nothing to do with WC.


----------



## anerlich (Jul 20, 2017)

LFJ said:


> How often is someone grabbing your wrist while your hand is in front of your crotch?



Shihan Patrick McCarthy, one of the more knowledgeable humans alive on Karate, bunkai, etc. etc. explained the apparent preponderance of wrist grab counters in TMA this way:

"If I can grab your throat or testicles, I can be damn sure you'll be trying to grab my wrist".



LFJ said:


> Oh, it can also be a standing collar-choke?



I said earlier that IMO the hand and arm movements in the cross collar choke are similar to those used in the opening sequence of the forms the way I do them, and I often tell Wing Chun students new to BJJ to move their arms in a similar fashion to complete the cross collar choke. I regard this as a fortuitous coincidence for that particular Jiu Jitsu teaching situation rather an indication of any application or intent by the developers of Wing Chun, who probably wouldn't have recognised a collar choke if it came up and bit them on the a$$.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled sniping and backbiting.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

anerlich said:


> Shihan Patrick McCarthy, one of the more knowledgeable humans alive on Karate, bunkai, etc. etc. explained the apparent preponderance of wrist grab counters in TMA this way:
> 
> "If I can grab your throat or testicles, I can be damn sure you'll be trying to grab my wrist".



Well, I'm not in the habit of going around grabbing people's balls.

So, I wouldn't need this to open every form, or be so central to my fighting strategy.

It's great you WC ball-grabbers have counters to the counter planned out.



> I said earlier that IMO the hand and arm movements in the cross collar choke are similar to those used in the opening sequence of the forms the way I do them, and I often tell Wing Chun students new to BJJ to move their arms in a similar fashion to complete the cross collar choke. I regard this as a fortuitous coincidence for that particular Jiu Jitsu teaching situation rather an indication of any application or intent by the developers of Wing Chun, who probably wouldn't have recognised a collar choke if it came up and bit them on the a$$.
> 
> Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled sniping and backbiting.



Martial D talked about collar chokes being an intended part of the action.

So, his WC teaches a wrist-grab escape from a ball-grab counter, and a collar choke for ground fighting as its opening action.

Seems legit.


----------



## geezer (Jul 20, 2017)

I've kept off this thread since I really don't see the point in taking a long time to craft a response when everybody seems to have their mind made up. So just this:

Applications are fun things, like tricks or baubles to show a beginner to catch their interest and keep them training. And, some tricks can be useful. But good VT/WC is not a bag of cheap tricks.

The opening movements in our VT/WC:  Extend arms, pushing elbows forward to g_ow cha tan-sau_, dropping straight down to _gow cha gaun-sau_, and roll arms inside (variant of _kwun sau_) and back up to _gow cha tan sau_, then withdrawing elbows and chambering fists high and horizontal, next to the chest... 

These movements and positions are fundamental, and are expressed in almost all techniques. The elbow powering the arm, the shoulders dropped, relaxed, even, and square to the opponent --never "bladed", the wrists in tan sau crossed precisely on center, insuring correct position. There's the efficiency of the crossed _gaun sau_, falling exactly along the vertical mid-line and not deviating even a centimeter off-center, the rolling of the arms in the _kwun-sau _variant, passing from _gaun_, through _dai-bong_, and then back to tan sau, and the opening of the chest as the elbows pull back to chamber...

There is _so much _here that is essential as a mater of position and structure, and that appears in a thousand techniques and movements, that to explain it away with trick applications ...like a choke, freeing from a grip, or a testicle grab, just seems cheap and empty to me. Or as LFJ said, _"skin and hair"._


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 20, 2017)

The opening of HFY SNT uses Tai Sao (long arm lifting) before sinking the bridge/body and opening into Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma.

What it's meant to do is define your space and the theories we use to draw the mental model before moving into specific techniques. The Tai Sao represents Box Theory (What I can influence vs what I can't, front to back space) and the sinking shows 5-line theory (left-to right positions of structural correctness) and Tien Yan Dei (vertical positions of structural correctness).

Once you've defined how to operate in each of the three dimensions, the form moves along to the specific syllables. Each move of the opening can be used as techniques, but the theory/mode of operation is what's most important.


----------



## yak sao (Jul 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've kept off this thread since I really don't see the point in taking a long time to craft a response when everybody seems to have their mind made up. So just this:
> 
> Applications are fun things, like tricks or baubles to show a beginner to catch their interest and keep them training. And, some tricks can be useful. But good VT/WC is not a bag of cheap tricks.
> 
> ...



I agreed already to your post but I just had to add....... YES!!!!!!!


----------



## Callen (Jul 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> Applications are fun things, like tricks or baubles to show a beginner to catch their interest and keep them training. And, some tricks can be useful. But good VT/WC is not a bag of cheap tricks.


Good insight!

Wing Chun is concept based. It is a misconception that there is always an application. Applications or drills can be called upon to illustrate how things function, but you should never think in terms of applications. A big part of the learning curve is realizing that Wing Chun can create specific behavior and natural responses for fighting.



geezer said:


> There is _so much _here that is essential as a mater of position and structure, and that appears in a thousand techniques and movements, that to explain it away with trick applications ...like a choke, freeing from a grip, or a testicle grab, just seems cheap and empty to me. Or as LFJ said, _"skin and hair"._


Well said!


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> There is _so much _here that is essential as a mater of position and structure, and that appears in a thousand techniques and movements, that to explain it away with trick applications ...like a choke, freeing from a grip, or a testicle grab, just seems cheap and empty to me. Or as LFJ said, _"skin and hair"._



But, by the same token, introducing variations of complex two-arm actions before even looking at the basic punch just seems excessive for the opening action of the very first form.

I'm not familiar with all the stuff Eric is describing above for his system. It's obviously not YMVT, but it makes more sense to establish your parameters before getting into specifics, and simple before complex.


----------



## KPM (Jul 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've kept off this thread since I really don't see the point in taking a long time to craft a response when everybody seems to have their mind made up. So just this:
> 
> Applications are fun things, like tricks or baubles to show a beginner to catch their interest and keep them training. And, some tricks can be useful. But good VT/WC is not a bag of cheap tricks.
> 
> ...



Good post!  But the difference here is that you admit that there is a basic interpretation or layer and that simple applications can be described to keep a beginner's attention.  In contrast, LFJ laughed at everyone that offered a basic interpretation for beginners, required some significant goading to get him to actually post his own answer to the OP, and then was rather vague and didn't give a very good explanation.   LFJ laughed at the "skin and hair" and then gave a somewhat deficient "muscle and bone."     I know you are agreeing with him in multiple threads to try and get him to play nice.  But I think it is a lost cause.  He is just going to feel justified in carrying on in his usual fashion.


----------



## KPM (Jul 20, 2017)

T Ray, you laughed at people providing a basic layer interpretation as well.  Why are you being LFJ's "yes man"??


----------



## anerlich (Jul 20, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Well, I'm not in the habit of going around grabbing people's balls.
> 
> So, I wouldn't need this to open every form, or be so central to my fighting strategy.
> 
> It's great you WC ball-grabbers have counters to the counter planned out.



I regard much of what you do on here, like cherry picking phrases from people's posts for ridicule, taking the most twisted interpretation of their words, etc. As mental masturbation. Since mental masturbation's physical counterpart is not a large logical (or physical) distance from grabbing the testicles, I figured you'd be down with it. My bad, apologies.

Many if not most Chinese and Japanese styles have the groin as a legitimate target, I've learned a number of forms from other styles which regard the groin and throat (whose use as a target you overlooked for ridicule, pick up your game) as targets.

Perhaps the PBWSLVT conceptual approach scorns the use of actual anatomical targets. You guys might never want to actually hit anyone anywhere, lest the PBWSLVT conceptual foundation collapse like the wave condition in Schrodinger's famous experiment when the box is opened, and the poor cat's ultimate fate becomes reality rather than theory.

Is the above mental masturbation? Perhaps, but compared to yourself I am a struggling dilettante.

Can this primarily physical endeavour be over-conceptualised? Are we in danger of becoming the theoreticians scorned by Terence Neihoff on KFO?

My sidais Ethan Dunham won his MMA fight in Adelaide last week. My stuff works. You can stick your conceptual validation in that place near the objects you don't want to grab.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

KPM said:


> I know you are agreeing with him in multiple threads to try and get him to play nice.



Riiight, because no one could ever agree with any point I make, and no one could ever disagree with you.

It's funny to watch you get all pouty when people think for themselves and don't pat your back.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

anerlich said:


> My sidais Ethan Dunham won his MMA fight in Adelaide last week. My stuff works.



By ball-grab submission, was it?


----------



## anerlich (Jul 20, 2017)

RNC, thanks for asking.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

anerlich said:


> RNC, thanks for asking.



Izzat an application of bringing the arms back in from double _faak-sau_ in SNT?

Or by "your stuff" do you mean the BJJ and not the TWC?


----------



## geezer (Jul 20, 2017)

LFJ said:


> But, by the same token, introducing variations of complex two-arm actions before even looking at the basic punch just seems excessive for the opening action of the very first form. I'm not familiar with all the stuff Eric is describing above for his system. It's obviously not YMVT, but it makes more sense to establish your parameters before getting into specifics, and simple before complex.



I totally agree about establishing your parameters and introducing simple, single aarm actions first, before complex double arm ones. 

Perhaps my use of the term _'kwun sau_" was misleading. Of course. it is commonly applied to a two-arm rotation into _tan-bong-sau_. My old Chinese sifu _also_ applied that term to the internal rotation of the arms up from double _gaun-sau_ to double _tan-sau_ in the opening movement. it does not refer to the classic two-arm rotation into the _tan-bong-sau_ position (although _the seed is there_ for those who can see it). Generally we explain the double-armed movements of SNT, such as this opening sequence in terms of single arm actions. 

As such, this _"kwun" _or rotational movement functions to 1. begin building the basic rotational path the hands follow when punching and performing most basic techniques with the hands rotating one over the other, and 2. in the specific rotating transition from _gaun-sau_ to _tan-sau,_ the arm flexes through a _dai-bong_ position, rotates internally, and then rolls into _tan-sau._ 

Although this particular sequence is not emphasized in drills and practice until later in the training, it s an _essential movement_ in our branch of YMVT with our emphasis on "flexible bong" sau and "springy energy". This emphasis may be branch-specific, since I do not believe you have mentioned anything like it in your WSL-VT.


----------



## anerlich (Jul 20, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Izzat an application of bringing the arms back in from double _faak-sau_ in SNT?
> 
> Or by "your stuff" do you mean the BJJ and not the TWC?



You ask dumb questions, bro. Almost like you're trying to push my buttons or something.


----------



## geezer (Jul 20, 2017)

anerlich said:


> You ask dumb questions, bro.* Almost like you're trying to push my buttons* or something.



Almost???


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> My old Chinese sifu _also_ applied that term to the internal rotation of the arms up from double _gaun-sau_ to double _tan-sau_ in the opening movement. it does not refer to the classic two-arm rotation into the _tan-bong-sau_ position (although _the seed is there_ for those who can see it).



Okay, that's a relief.



> the basic rotational path the hands follow when punching and performing most basic techniques with the hands rotating one over the other,



You punch with elbows out, like hitting a speedbag or something?



> "flexible bong" sau and "springy energy". This emphasis may be branch-specific, since I do not believe you have mentioned anything like it in your WSL-VT.



Yeah, no such thing for me.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

anerlich said:


> You ask dumb questions, bro. Almost like you're trying to push my buttons or something.



Well, then I guess you're talking about BJJ and not TWC. I agree, then. It works.


----------



## anerlich (Jul 20, 2017)

Guess away. I do not seek your agreement.


----------



## geezer (Jul 20, 2017)

LFJ said:


> ...You punch with elbows out, like hitting a speedbag or something?



_Nope_. In our opening movement to SNT, the elbows flex outward (like a _dai-bong_) to allow the hands to rotate inside and back up to _gow-cha tan-sau_ position. The path of the punch is the internal rotation. But the flexing to a dai-bong position happens when the arm is pushed or pinned down, as with a a_ jut, gum, or pak-sau. _This is part of the training of our springy or flexible bong-sau.

Regardless of lineage, when most people receive a strong, outdoor _pak-sau_, this is a pretty normal response. Either your arm flexes, or you resist stiffly and your body will be jolted out of position. On the other hand, responding to an indoor _pak-sau_ this way takes considerably more training, and takes a long time to get down. It wasn't until I struggled to internalize that response that I realized that the key was right there in the opening of SNT, in one of the very first moves I ever learned.

For the record, we are talking about slightly different sequences here. Here' WSL demonstrating the movement discussed at about 0:09-10:






Now, here's a woman performing the same sequence in the LT version at about 0:6-8:


----------



## KPM (Jul 20, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Well, then I guess you're talking about BJJ and not TWC. I agree, then. It works.



I would guess that the winning RNC needed some considerable "set up" to achieve, and that "set up" was likely the TWC that made it possible.  But then I am capable of applying common sense rather than just seeking to argue with anyone and everyone whenever I can!


----------



## dudewingchun (Jul 20, 2017)

anerlich said:


> My sidais Ethan Dunham won his MMA fight in Adelaide last week. My stuff works. You can stick your conceptual validation in that place near the objects you don't want to grab.



Cool man. Is there any footage of that fight? Saw his Sherdog profile (I think), good to have WC guys competing like that.


----------



## anerlich (Jul 20, 2017)

dudewingchun said:


> Cool man. Is there any footage of that fight? Saw his Sherdog profile (I think), good to have WC guys competing like that.



I can't find a vid after a brief look, and the live stream seems to be no longer available. I imagine I'll come across footage at some stage and will post it if I can. Some of his earlier fights are on Youtube.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

KPM said:


> I would guess that the winning RNC needed some considerable "set up" to achieve, and that "set up" was likely the TWC that made it possible.  But then I am capable of applying common sense rather than just seeking to argue with anyone and everyone whenever I can!



Well, I haven't seen the guy fight, but based on all the TWC fights I've seen, I'm willing to bet he never achieved flank, as is the central strategy of the style, and that the RNC was set up by ground fighting skills rather than TWC.

Wanna put money on it and see when Anerlich posts the video?


----------



## KPM (Jul 20, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Well, I haven't seen the guy fight, but based on all the TWC fights I've seen, I'm willing to bet he never achieved flank, as is the central strategy of the style, and that the RNC was set up by ground fighting skills rather than TWC.
> 
> Wanna put money on it and see when Anerlich posts the video?



Well, if his TWC allowed him to survive on his feet long enough to get to the ground and apply that RNC, I would call that part of the set up and the thing that enabled him to achieve that RNC.  Otherwise he would have likely been knocked out rather than choked out!


----------



## anerlich (Jul 20, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Wanna put money on it and see when Anerlich posts the video?



Your recent posts indicate that no good will come of posting any video on this forum. So, sorry NI, I won't be posting it. LFJ will need to find other subjects for his scorn, resentment and negativity.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 20, 2017)

KPM said:


> Well, if his TWC allowed him to survive on his feet long enough to get to the ground and apply that RNC, I would call that part of the set up and the thing that enabled him to achieve that RNC.  Otherwise he would have likely been knocked out rather than choked out!



Well, since it's not going to be posted, we won't know if he got taken down, but got the upper hand once on the ground.


----------



## KPM (Jul 21, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Well, since it's not going to be posted, we won't know if he got taken down, but got the upper hand once on the ground.



Doesn't matter.  I'm sure you'd find something about it to criticize!


----------



## LFJ (Jul 21, 2017)

KPM said:


> Doesn't matter.  I'm sure you'd find something about it to criticize!



Every fight has something to criticize.

I criticize my own performance as well, as does every serious fighter at any level.


----------



## geezer (Jul 21, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Every fight has something to criticize. I criticize my own performance as well, as does every serious fighter at any level.



Yeah. Honest self-criticism is essential for improvement and growth.

BTW,_ LFJ_, since you are open to criticism, why the secrecy? We know who _KPM_ is (Keith P. Myers, USA), who Anerlich is (Andrew Nerlich, Australia), of course I'm Geezer (Steve Frerichs, here in Phoenix, AZ).... so _who_ are you in real life? What country do you live in? And, if it's not too much to ask, who have you trained WSL-VT with? Obviously, they made a deep impression on you. How about sharing?


----------



## LFJ (Jul 21, 2017)

geezer said:


> BTW,_ LFJ_, since you are open to criticism, why the secrecy?



It's no "secrecy". I just don't care to share personal details on here and see no reason to. It's a discussion board, not a dating site.

Some people do. Some don't. No one is obligated to, or more "credible" if they do. Arugments need to either stand or fall on their own.

If you want to criticize my views on VT/WC/martial arts, you don't need to know my name, where I live, what I look like...

That's just KPM's last resort to discredit me when he talks himself into a corner but can't just be honest about it. As if not seeing my face invalidates all points I make.


----------



## KPM (Jul 22, 2017)

^^^^^^ You have no credibility when you make claims that you can't back up.  You have no credibility when you harshly criticize what others are doing in a video but won't produce a video that shows how you would do it better.  You have no credibility when you make fun of and denigrate what others choose to share in video, discouraging anyone from wanting to continue or begin to share video.  You have no credibility when you are consistently "unfriendly" towards people on the forum.   You have no credibility when YOU talk yourself into a corner and then use "double talk" and diversion to get out of it.  You have no credibility when you repeatedly refuse to answer questions or elaborate on what you are saying.  It shouldn't take goading and repeated prompting to get someone to share even a little bit about their system.  You're either here to share and discuss freely or you are not.  If you are just here to criticize others......


----------



## LFJ (Jul 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> ^^^^^^ You have no credibility when you make claims that you can't back up.



Such as? This is a claim you have not backed up.



> You have no credibility when you harshly criticize what others are doing in a video but won't produce a video that shows how you would do it better.



Even if I had no better solution, that would not invalidate my criticism of what you do.

That's just saying "if you can't make a video of yourself doing better, I don't have to consider valid criticism."



> You have no credibility when you make fun of and denigrate what others choose to share in video, discouraging anyone from wanting to continue or begin to share video.



That has nothig to do with credibility, anyway, but I don't make fun of it, I critically analyze it, and you choose to take personal offense because I don't pat your back like you want.



> You have no credibility when you are consistently "unfriendly" towards people on the forum.



Having a different point of view is not unfriendly.

I try to stay pretty technical in our discussions, while you call me every name you can get away with.



> You have no credibility when YOU talk yourself into a corner and then use "double talk" and diversion to get out of it.



That doesn't happen.



> You have no credibility when you repeatedly refuse to answer questions or elaborate on what you are saying.



I do that, it just depends on who I'm talking to and how confrontational they're being about things. That's why you don't get much, because you don't keep it technical.



> It shouldn't take goading and repeated prompting to get someone to share even a little bit about their system.



Same answer as above, but remember I have probably shared more in-depth information about my system than anyone else on this forum.



> You're either here to share and discuss freely or you are not.  If you are just here to criticize others......



Criticism is part of sharing and discussing freely. If you are not comfortable with criticism......


----------



## geezer (Jul 22, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Criticism is part of sharing and discussing freely. If you are not comfortable with criticism......



Sometimes_ I'm_ not comfortable with criticism. Maybe I'm just insecure. Apparently you are too. Otherwise, maybe you'd be more open about who you are? Maybe not.

Then again, as you correctly pointed out, _this is not an on-line dating site_. Too bad. I really think you and KPM would make a great pair. You know what they say, "opposites attract" ...and you two already argue just like an old married couple! 

So, without a clue as to who you are, or who you trained under, how do we know that you fairly represent the WSL-VT branch as you claim-to? I guess I'll have to go by the number of "likes" and "agrees" you get from other WSL-VT guys like T-Ray, Callen, and Lobo 66 on your technical explanations. And they do generally support you in that regard.

Now as to how you and your computer fiancee carry on with your endless online _spats_ --that I can do without! Don't think I'm alone in that either.


----------



## KPM (Jul 22, 2017)

*Such as? This is a claim you have not backed up.*

---Such as???  How about starting with your claim that WSLVT is not only exactly what Ip Man taught, but is the only version of his system that isn't "broken" or "incomplete"???  That is the claim that underlies almost everything you post on this forum.  That is the claim by which you judge what everyone else posts on this forum!



*That's just saying "if you can't make a video of yourself doing better, I don't have to consider valid criticism."*

----I considered what Phobius and Drop Bear had to say without any problem.  Your criticism was just much less valid, obviously biased, and stated in a rather "unfriendly" way.  But I'm not just talking about my videos.  You've done it with others as well.  



*That has nothig to do with credibility, anyway, but I don't make fun of it, I critically analyze it, and you choose to take personal offense because I don't pat your back like you want.*

---So responding with the little "funny" tab is not "making fun" of someone's post, when the post was not meant to be humorous?  



*Having a different point of view is not unfriendly.*

---But the way you present your point of view certainly is!  


*I try to stay pretty technical in our discussions, while you call me every name you can get away with.*

---Oh that's rich!   After the treatment I got from you and your buddy Guy B. over in the "other" forum recently!!!      You remember, don't you?  When you and Guy B. called me half a dozen different nasty names and the mods would do nothing about it?  At least the mods don't let you get away with that here!  

*That doesn't happen.*

---Yeah!  Dream on!  


I* do that, it just depends on who I'm talking to and how confrontational they're being about things. That's why you don't get much, because you don't keep it technical.*

---I'm not talking about me.  Several people have asked you direct questions recently that you have just ignored.  And this has certainly happened relatively frequently in the past.


*Same answer as above, but remember I have probably shared more in-depth information about my system than anyone else on this forum.*

----I don't think so.   And almost everything you share is after pages of drama and goading to get you to do it. 


*Criticism is part of sharing and discussing freely. If you are not comfortable with criticism.....*

---Oh, I have no problem with criticism.   But I have a problem with someone that is consistently overly critical and judgmental of others while at the same time being unwilling to back up what he says.  

---But Geezer is right.  Likely no one cares what we are saying (other than your "yes man" T Ray) and would rather we both just shut up.  So let's get on to better things.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 23, 2017)

KPM said:


> How about starting with your claim that WSLVT is not only exactly what Ip Man taught,



That's not a claim, but an informed opinion. I have outlined in great detail why it is very likely.



> but is the only version of his system that isn't "broken" or "incomplete"???



Again, not a claim I have made. Most common versions out there do seem to be non-fuctional and full of gaps. I've gone to lengths to show why, and you came to the conclusion yourself recently that it often doesn't work in sparring/fighting and needs WB to help it.



> That is the claim by which you judge what everyone else posts on this forum!



No. I judge everything I read or see fairly and independently, and that just happens to be the common result.



> Your criticism was just much less valid, obviously biased, and stated in a rather "unfriendly" way.



I have no bias, since what you or others do doesn't affect my training. You can do whatever you want.

I'm also not being unfriendly. I just try not to sugarcoat criticism so you don't get the wrong idea.

If my criticism is invalid then you should be able to show that while keeping the discussion 100% technical.



> ---So responding with the little "funny" tab is not "making fun" of someone's post, when the post was not meant to be humorous?



I haven't rated your videos "funny", only some of your posts in which you say things I find amusing.

I have only responded to your videos with technical comments; opinions or advice.



> After the treatment I got from you and your buddy Guy B. over in the "other" forum recently!!!      You remember, don't you?  When you and Guy B. called me half a dozen different nasty names and the mods would do nothing about it?  At least the mods don't let you get away with that here!



I think I just used the words liar and troll, when you were lying or trolling.

That's not the same as idiot, dense, and anything xxxx could stand for, which is just unnecessary insults.



> Several people have asked you direct questions recently that you have just ignored. And this has certainly happened relatively frequently in the past.



Last time you accused me of this it turned out that I had answered your question in the post immediately following it.



> almost everything you share is after pages of drama and goading to get you to do it.



Often because you divert the technical discussion.



> I have a problem with someone that is consistently overly critical and judgmental of others while at the same time being unwilling to back up what he says.



I don't choose what I agree with, so there is no being overly-critical. I just happen to disagree with most things you say or do. It is not my choice to be hard on you.

And, I do back up my criticism with ample explanation. Again, demanding video of me doing better is just deflecting the criticism.


----------



## KPM (Jul 23, 2017)

*Again, not a claim I have made. Most common versions out there do seem to be non-fuctional and full of gaps. I've gone to lengths to show why, and you came to the conclusion yourself recently that it often doesn't work in sparring/fighting and needs WB to help it.*

---Yet you have not proven that YOUR version of Wing Chun is any different.   And you won't post videos of yourself showing those technical differences to prove that what you do is any different or superior to what others are doing.  You post Chi Sau videos of PB because that's all you've got.  When asked to post your own video to illustrate your points you refuse.  Again, you can "talk the talk" but don't demonstrate that you can "walk the walk."   You want to be seen as the resident expert on WSLVT, but aren't able to demonstrate that you can actually "practice what you preach."  You frequently tell others that what they are doing is wrong, but won't show that you can do it any better.  No credibility.  


*I judge everything I read or see fairly and independently, I have no bias, I'm also not being unfriendly. *

---Holy moly!   Talk about lack of insight!  


*If my criticism is invalid then you should be able to show that while keeping the discussion 100% technical.*

---Hard to stay 100% technical when you repeatedly refuse to see or acknowledge any technical points that contradict your view.  That's why everything with you is an argument and NOT a "technical discussion."  And its like arguing with a fence post!  




*Last time you accused me of this it turned out that I had answered your question in the post immediately following it.*

---You answered the question after I goaded you into answering it....after over 50 posts on the topic.....a thread where you HAD posted multiple times WITHOUT answering the OP's question.

---So if I'm so wrong about you....why don't you answer Geezer's recent questions?  If I'm so wrong about you... why don't you start your own thread here and share something about your Wing Chun in a positive way?    But no, I'm pretty sure you'll just reply with more of the same.  Arguing.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 23, 2017)

KPM said:


> You post Chi Sau videos of PB because that's all you've got.



I can't remember ever posting a _chi-sau_ video of PB.

You seem oddly obsessed with his _chi-sau_ for some reason.



> When asked to post your own video to illustrate your points you refuse.  Again, you can "talk the talk" but don't demonstrate that you can "walk the walk."   You want to be seen as the resident expert on WSLVT, but aren't able to demonstrate that you can actually "practice what you preach."  You frequently tell others that what they are doing is wrong, but won't show that you can do it any better.  No credibility.



You're not getting it. This is an ad hominem.

Assuming my own VT sucks, that itself does not invalidate my criticism of your WC.

You still have to address the issues with your WC face-on.



> ---Hard to stay 100% technical when you repeatedly refuse to see or acknowledge any technical points that contradict your view.



By this you mean you want desperately that I agree with your technical points, and you get emotional when I don't and counter them instead, and you start name-calling.

Again, I can't just choose to agree with you and pat your back when I don't agree.

If your points are flawed I will not "acknowledge" them as true or valid to save you face. That would be dishonest of me.



> ---You answered the question after I goaded you into answering it....after over 50 posts on the topic.....a thread where you HAD posted multiple times WITHOUT answering the OP's question.



Wrong. I answered immediately when it was asked of me. You were shown to be mistaken. You even mistook Danny T's post for mine. 

You need to read more carefully, instead of searching for something to accuse me of in an emotional haste.



> ---So if I'm so wrong about you....why don't you answer Geezer's recent questions?



What my name is, where I live, etc.?

There is no need for you to know this.



> why don't you start your own thread here and share something about your Wing Chun in a positive way?



I prefer to discuss specific topics as they come up. So? 

Starting threads is not a membership requirement, just as posting videos or personal information are not.


----------



## geezer (Jul 23, 2017)

Mom, Dad, how about a nice glass of milk and then we all go to bed?


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 23, 2017)

geezer said:


> Mom, Dad, how about a nice glass of milk and then we all go to bed?



No thanks....I'll take a shot of whiskey instead...


----------



## geezer (Jul 23, 2017)

Seriously LFJ, there are some problems with your online discussions.

First of all, you claim not to be biased. _Of course you are biased._  Everybody has a bias. The fact that _you don't admit this_ weakens your arguments. I guess you could say that this attitude creates an immediate negative bias in me, as the reader. 

Secondly, you claim to back up your position with logical and totally convincing arguments. Well, you do write well and make some good points. But no oral or written discussion of theory and technique can be taken as absolute proof. Martial arts is not mathematics or an exercise in deductive reasoning.

Many highly logical and plausible theories are disproven when put to the physical test. So, lacking the means for open and public testing of what you say on a large scale --such as what we have with competitive martial arts, your theories remain nothing more than a well-informed _opinion_ backed by your personal experience, i.e. _testimonial evidence_ worthy of serious consideration, but a long way from an objective proof.

Finally, your inability to recognize the possible validity of opposing points of view leads you into tedious and quarrelsome arguments with other equally stubborn individuals. The fact that you cannot control this tendency, and moreover refuse to even recognize it in yourself, is a little disturbing. Is it possible that you don't realize how others perceive you? Honestly, I would expect a a little more introspection and humility from someone who is both obviously intelligent and who claims to be comfortable with criticism.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 23, 2017)

geezer said:


> First of all, you claim not to be biased. _Of course you are biased._  Everybody has a bias. The fact that _you don't admit this_ weakens your arguments.



How do you mean?

KPM is suggesting I purposefully disagree with him because I just want to argue or don't want him to be right.

There is no such bias in my arguments. And, if I wanted him to be wrong, I wouldn't comment at all.



> Secondly, you claim to back up your position with logical and totally convincing arguments. Well, you do write well and make some good points. But no oral or written discussion of theory and technique can be taken as absolute proof. Martial arts is not mathematics or an exercise in deductive reasoning.



We aren't stood in front of each other. This is a discussion board. You can take criticism into honest consideration, and test things for yourself, or run away from the problem and demand that I post video of myself doing better. This is taking personal offense to purely technical criticism.



> Finally, your inability to recognize the possible validity of opposing points of view leads you into tedious and quarrelsome arguments



Again, you seem to be assuming that I am choosing to disagree for the sake of argument.

I have actually given fair consideration to other views, but if in the end I don't find those views to be valid, it's not an "inability to recognize". You just have to live with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you.



> Is it possible that you don't realize how others perceive you?



No. I just don't particularly care. I come for technical discussion that has nothing to do with personality. Just keep things technical, emotions out of it, and we have no problem.


----------



## Phobius (Jul 23, 2017)

LFJ said:


> How do you mean?
> 
> KPM is suggesting I purposefully disagree with him because I just want to argue or don't want him to be right.
> 
> ...



I disagree with people here often and sometimes I feel like I am training a kind of WC so unlike everyone else here even though I train WT.

So LFJ, the technical terms you describe often fit my view and how I was taught WC.

Only difference of any kind is that my version may be more yielding but with a whipping tail with teeth. Yours in my view have horns and is slightly more standing it's ground.

Not easy to describe how I mean and maybe you won't understand but I agree much with what you write. But you sound like a dogma? Sometimes saying things that sound like your opinion is the right and only one.

This results in fight anytime someone disagrees or misunderstood you and don't have it in them to let it go.

I do not however believe one true martial art but many different ones all complete in their own way. The rest is just level of understanding from its practitioners.

Arguing art is always pointless unless someone can say they know their art 100%. Such a person is a liar or a believer. All others can only discuss what they know themselves and as such it only applies to themselves.


----------



## geezer (Jul 23, 2017)

LFJ said:


> ...I come for technical discussion that has nothing to do with personality. Just keep things technical, emotions out of it, and we have no problem.



Your best posts have been those where you have followed your own advice above. 

Next time you feel like getting into it with KPM, I suggest you re-read your own words. Same goes for the other party!


----------



## LFJ (Jul 23, 2017)

Phobius said:


> Arguing art is always pointless unless someone can say they know their art 100%. Such a person is a liar or a believer.



Why do you say that?

VT is designed to be quite simple. It can certainly be understood 100%. It's reaching perfect execution that always eludes. But, that's why we continue to train.

If one doesn't understand what they are doing it can lead to many misconceptions and degradation of the system if they try to develop upon what they don't understand, or simply get carried away with an incomplete idea.


----------



## Phobius (Jul 23, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Why do you say that?
> 
> VT is designed to be quite simple. It can certainly be understood 100%. It's reaching perfect execution that always eludes. But, that's why we continue to train.
> 
> If one doesn't understand what they are doing it can lead to many misconceptions and degradation of the system if they try to develop upon what they don't understand, or simply get carried away with an incomplete idea.



I did not mean anything by it besides this, when you understand your art to 100% there is no point in training it anymore other than it being fun.

When every single detail is available to you and you know everything... what else is there? I believe it is a general belief in Kung Fu that you never reach 100% understanding until after you died. Even if you yourself created your art.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 23, 2017)

Phobius said:


> I did not mean anything by it besides this, when you understand your art to 100% there is no point in training it anymore other than it being fun.
> 
> When every single detail is available to you and you know everything... what else is there? I believe it is a general belief in Kung Fu that you never reach 100% understanding until after you died. Even if you yourself created your art.



Okay, well, I disagree because as I just said, VT is designed to be simple and understandable, but, understanding it fully doesn't mean your execution will be perfect. 
_
That_ is why we keep training. 

Not to gather more and more information or new techniques, but to improve skills. 

Understanding just provides direction. 

If you don't understand the big picture and what you're actually doing at each stage, you're unlikely to end up with functional skills.


----------



## Phobius (Jul 23, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Okay, well, I disagree because as I just said, VT is designed to be simple and understandable, but, understanding it fully doesn't mean your execution will be perfect.
> _
> That_ is why we keep training.
> 
> ...



You and me clearly have a different opinion on what "understanding" or rather "knowing" means. (Understanding means you understand yourself, your opponent and your art in every single moment of your life. Clearly you understand your art but understanding yourself and your opponent is probably another matter.)

Since my opinion is the one that shaped my argument on "100%" I win. And my victory means exactly this, stop arguing about silly stuff like what I said because if you do not understand that then this is the very essence of what I was trying to say.

Now when we are past arguing my semantics, do you disagree with me about arguing martial arts being pointless? Instead we should focus our effort on A) explain ourselves and our techniques or B) walk away. Simply put you will never understand someone you can not discuss with, so why bother since it is not like that guy will understand you anyway. He will not wake up one day and say you are right and he is wrong. He will one day forget all about you and never think back and you spent a lot of effort and time in your life doing nothing good. Like I am doing now.  

Easy to give a tip to others that I do not follow myself.


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## LFJ (Jul 23, 2017)

Phobius said:


> (Understanding means you understand yourself, your opponent and your art in every single moment of your life. Clearly you understand your art but understanding yourself and your opponent is probably another matter.)



You initially said it's impossible to understand your art. That comes across as technical. 

Now you're getting all philosophical and talking about understanding other people at all times....



> do you disagree with me about arguing martial arts being pointless? Instead we should focus our effort on A) explain ourselves and our techniques or B) walk away. Simply put you will never understand someone you can not discuss with, so why bother since it is not like that guy will understand you anyway. He will not wake up one day and say you are right and he is wrong. He will one day forget all about you and never think back and you spent a lot of effort and time in your life doing nothing good. Like I am doing now.
> 
> Easy to give a tip to others that I do not follow myself.



Yes, I disagree. Understanding is important and often isn't immediately picked up by others just because you give them information. Especially when they are attached to their own understanding and resistant to being wrong and having to change.

I know some people I talk to are either too deeply invested in what they do (need to maintain sifu-status), or just too egotistical to learn.

But, this is an open forum and many people read it, just like other online forums I've posted on.

I've benefited from forum discussions myself, and I have received PMs from people who have benefitted from my posts. So, I'm glad to help, even if my discussion partner is hardheaded. That just helps make my points more obvious.


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## Phobius (Jul 23, 2017)

And I edit my post because maybe I missunderstood you and apologize if I did.

Just think that arguing is not exchange of information, discussion is. Arguing on forum is like driving into a brick wall and expecting the wall to move.


----------



## LFJ (Jul 23, 2017)

Phobius said:


> Just think that arguing is not exchange of information, discussion is.


 
What do you call it then when I disagree with some information and give my opion on it?

I would call that discussion, but some would say if I don't just accept their explanations then I'm arguing for the sake of arguing.

That would be accepting for the sake of someone's sensative emotions. I don't do that because it's dishonest and we're all adults, I think.


----------



## KPM (Jul 23, 2017)

LFJ said:


> What do you call it then when I disagree with some information and give my opion on it?
> 
> I would call that discussion, but some would say if I don't just accept their explanations then I'm arguing for the sake of arguing.
> 
> That would be accepting for the sake of someone's sensative emotions. I don't do that because it's dishonest and we're all adults, I think.



You really don't get it, do you?  You can disagree with someone's opinion without turning it into an argument.  You can express your understanding, and let them have theirs.  But you don't do that.  You set out to prove them wrong, and typically go to lengths to do so.  That's why every discussion with you turns into an argument.  You always assume you are right and the other party is wrong, rather than just acknowledging that there can be different approaches to a situation or different viewpoints.  You don't just give your opinion.  You take it upon yourself to prove how wrong the other person's opinion is!


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## LFJ (Jul 23, 2017)

KPM said:


> You always assume you are right and the other party is wrong, rather than just acknowledging that there can be different approaches to a situation or different viewpoints.



Whenever I say you're wrong about something you are objectively wrong, and I demonstrate it.



> You take it upon yourself to prove how wrong the other person's opinion is!



In the other position I would be grateful for the help. This has happened before where someone has shown me something I hadn't seen or considered before, and I was happy to learn from it.

Taking personal offense and getting all upset when someone helps you is a bizarre way to react.


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## Phobius (Jul 24, 2017)

LFJ said:


> What do you call it then when I disagree with some information and give my opion on it?
> 
> I would call that discussion, but some would say if I don't just accept their explanations then I'm arguing for the sake of arguing.
> 
> That would be accepting for the sake of someone's sensative emotions. I don't do that because it's dishonest and we're all adults, I think.



Disagreeing and stating a good explanation is discussing. 

Writing things over and over again to someone not listening is often arguing. 

You and KPM are arguing because both parties are not interested in listening. Spend your energy on the rest of us after having stated that one or several good reasons you disagree on something


----------



## KPM (Jul 24, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Whenever I say you're wrong about something you are objectively wrong, and I demonstrate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You just proved my point!


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## anerlich (Jul 25, 2017)

A few photos of the aforementioned fight. Ethan Duniam in the 360 shorts:








LFJ said:


> Well, since it's not going to be posted, we won't know if he got taken down, but got the upper hand once on the ground.



Someone got taken down, but not Ethan. Commiserations if anyone was hoping otherwise.


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## LFJ (Jul 25, 2017)

anerlich said:


> A few photos of the aforementioned fight.



Well, congrats to your pal.

Would be nice to see the actual fight, though, because none of the pictures show TWC methods, neither the takedown nor the punching method, unless those are from the 4th form..?

You were posting this to say your stuff works, after all. But, then again, you wouldn't say what "your stuff" is; TWC, BJJ, or some other MMA elements.


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## anerlich (Jul 25, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Would be nice to see the actual fight, though, because none of the pictures show TWC methods, neither the takedown nor the punching method, unless those are from the 4th form..?



You're a real "glass half empty" sort of guy, aren't you?






"Will you knock it off with them negative waves? Can't you see how beautiful it is out here?"



LFJ said:


> You were posting this to say your stuff works, after all.



It does. Did you miss this photo?







LFJ said:


> Well, congrats to your pal.



Yes! That's more like it!


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## LFJ (Jul 25, 2017)

anerlich said:


> It does. Did you miss this photo?



That shows this guy won his fight, but not how.

You said by RNC, which is not a TWC technique.

The single punch image also shows non-TWC methods.

So, this can't be used to say TWC works, since as far as you've shown none was used.


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## anerlich (Jul 25, 2017)

I mainly put the photos up because Nobody Important asked about the fight. Not to prove anything about anything to Negative Nancies who can't take heart from the successes of others and have to rain on their parade.

Be positive! A Wing Chun guy won! A brother in the arts! Let it warm the cockles of your heart!


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## LFJ (Jul 25, 2017)

anerlich said:


> I mainly put the photos up because Nobody Important asked about the fight. Not to prove anything about anything



The fight that you first mentioned to say your TWC works;



anerlich said:


> My sidais Ethan Dunham won his MMA fight in Adelaide last week. My stuff works.





> Be positive! A Wing Chun guy won!



Yeah, I congradulated him.

However, it is not being negative to wonder where the TWC is when you post about this fight to say TWC works, but then images show all non-TWC methods, and it finished by RNC.

If he won the fight without using TWC at all, then the fact that he also trains TWC is irrelevant and claiming it as a win for TWC is stolen valor from his other coaches that trained him to win the fight with functional methods like BJJ, and the effort he put into that training.


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## anerlich (Jul 26, 2017)

LFJ said:


> If he won the fight without using TWC at all, then the fact that he also trains TWC is irrelevant and claiming it as a win for TWC is stolen valor from his other coaches that trained him to win the fight with functional methods like BJJ, and the effort he put into that training.



That he won his fight without using TWC is supposition on your part, and manifestly biased supposition, based on two action photographs.

Ethan's principal coaches are pictured with him below: Tracey Aldridge, and Brent Duggan. Both Red sashes in TWC under Rick Spain. They all live in a small town called Ulverstone on the North Coast of Tasmania. Not surrounded by famous MMA gyms or coaches. Tracey owns the gym where all are coaches. Ethan is a gold sash in TWC. This is a full time gym teaching Wing Chun, BJJ, kickboxing (for competition) and MMA. 

Anyone who does BJJ and MMA will have trained with coaches other than those at their home gym occasionally (I've done Pedro Sauer, Steve Maxwell, JJ Carlos and Rigan Machado, etc. etc.) but Ethan's main coaches in all aspects were Tracey, Brent, and earlier, Tracey's ex, Stuart Clayton. These people are deeply committed to their training and their students

Just because you can't imagine ever having the personal resources to pull off anything like this, doesn't mean that more capable people can't do it.

Stolen valour? You have no idea what you are talking about. You insult people who have achieved far more in martial arts than you ever will.

You are desperate to find holes in this presentation. None exist.

Look at yourself and what you are doing and see how nastily and disingenuously you are behaving. Why? How do your actions help you become a better martial artist or human being?

The winner and his coaches:


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## LFJ (Jul 26, 2017)

anerlich said:


> You insult people



I've insulted no one.

You should not be surprised by my reaction when you say "TWC works, look at this guy", then show pictures of non-TWC methods in a fight that was also won by non-TWC methods.

If he used TWC at any point in the fight that would be cool to see. Hopefully you can post it.


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## anerlich (Jul 26, 2017)

LFJ said:


> You should not be surprised by my reaction



Hell no. It was as predictable as the sun coming up this morning.



LFJ said:


> I've insulted no one.



So, the stuff about stolen valour was a compliment?


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## LFJ (Jul 26, 2017)

anerlich said:


> So, the stuff about stolen valour was a compliment?



If something other than TWC was used to win the fight (like BJJ), credit should go there rather than to TWC. This is not insulting anyone.


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## anerlich (Jul 26, 2017)

BJJ he learned at a TWC gym from TWC coaches. The credit goes to those coaches. I've taught BJJ at Tracey's former gym (the Tasmanian Wing Chun Association) myself as a TWC red sash  (yeah, OK, and as a BJJ black belt). I rolled with their students and I have to say they were tough and technical. One guy did travel to Dubai regularly for his work in the mining industry and got to train regularly with high level black belts there ... but .....multiple arts taught in the one gym by Wing Chun instructors. Who knew?

You might want to consider how you phrase your future posts. Lest some make the same mistakes I did and get the impression you *are* trying to push their buttons, or insult them, or something.


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## LFJ (Jul 26, 2017)

anerlich said:


> BJJ he learned at a TWC gym from TWC coaches. The credit goes to those coaches.


 
For the BJJ they taught him, not TWC.


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## anerlich (Jul 26, 2017)

Actually, to the athlete and the coaches.


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## LFJ (Jul 26, 2017)

anerlich said:


> Actually, to the athlete and the coaches.



For their training and coaching in BJJ, not TWC.


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## anerlich (Jul 26, 2017)

LFJ said:


> For their training and coaching


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## LFJ (Jul 26, 2017)

...of BJJ...not TWC.


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## Phobius (Jul 26, 2017)

LFJ said:


> ...of BJJ...not TWC.



You are saying they did not teach him TWC? Or are you saying when he fights he only used BJJ and did nothing but BJJ?

Noone wins a fight without being what they are, and what they are is usually a combination of all their training. They are fighters. Not TWC or BJJ fighters but simply fighters.


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## LFJ (Jul 26, 2017)

Phobius said:


> You are saying they did not teach him TWC? Or are you saying when he fights he only used BJJ and did nothing but BJJ?
> 
> Noone wins a fight without being what they are, and what they are is usually a combination of all their training. They are fighters. Not TWC or BJJ fighters but simply fighters.



If you've learned more than one striking method, you can of course choose to use only one or the other.

It was said he trained kickboxing for competition. Based on the information given and what has been shown, the striking method used was non-TWC. So, it appears he used a combination of kickboxing and BJJ, unless something more can be shown.

So, all I'm saying is the credit for which style was used to win the fight should go mostly to BJJ, for the takedown, groundwork, and RNC that finished it.


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## wckf92 (Jul 29, 2017)

LFJ said:


> The action is not an application of any sort; neither a freeing hand nor collar choke. (Are you choking children or little people?)
> 
> It imparts strategic information regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking.
> 
> ...



Might it also have something to do with the 135 degree bend in the arms(?)...with regard to striking, etc?
_***for context, I was recently reading an article where the author was interviewing Wan Kam Leung and he says in the article that 135 deg is very important..._


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