# Fugukukai and Karl Geis



## SammyB57

Any info or input on the Fugukukai or Karl Geis?


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## kilo

Sure what do you want to know?


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## SammyB57

Everything under the sun. Or whatever you feel like sharing.


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## AdamD

The Fugakukai was founded by Karl Geis and Miyake.  Originally the Fugakukai was and still has its primary teachings from the Tomiki-Ryu Aikido.  What seperates Fugakukai from other Tomiki schools is, we do not participate in competition and we owe a great deal to the Kito-Ryu and Mr. Geis's teacher Osawa.  Osawa,being a great Judo teacher, beleaved in throwing on the move. In other words, you continue to walk or skiash threw the uke while maintaining the throw. The other side of the coin is, if the throw does not work you immedietly go to a different throw and so forth, untill Uke has fallen.


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## MarkBarlow

My initial Aikido training was under Karl.  He's an incredible teacher with a true gift for making complex ideas easily understood.  

It always surprises me when I encounter instructors of other Aikido styles who have nothing but contempt for both Fugakukai and Shodokan/Tomiki.  A few years ago I attended a workshop in Los Angeles with a very well known Japanese Aikidoka and he was very complimentary all weekend, until he asked what style I studied.  After hearing that I'd trained under Karl Geis and Tetsuro Nariyama, I couldn't do anything right in his eyes.


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## okashiibudo

There's a lot of that. I don't know where it comes from.

My sensei is a rokudan from Karl's school. While we're not part of the Fugakukai, we do teach the same non-competition Tomiki aikido. However, what we do isn't very well accepted with the greater aikido community - to the extent that I've been told by a Tomiki sensei in Japan that because of my lineage, what I'm doing isn't really aikido.

It's frustrating.

Anyway, if you're looking for information on Karl Geis, I'd recommend his website: http://www.karlgeis.com/.


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## morph4me

MarkBarlow said:


> It always surprises me when I encounter instructors of other Aikido styles who have nothing but contempt for both Fugakukai and Shodokan/Tomiki. A few years ago I attended a workshop in Los Angeles with a very well known Japanese Aikidoka and he was very complimentary all weekend, until he asked what style I studied. After hearing that I'd trained under Karl Geis and Tetsuro Nariyama, I couldn't do anything right in his eyes.


 


okashiibudo said:


> There's a lot of that. I don't know where it comes from.
> 
> My sensei is a rokudan from Karl's school. While we're not part of the Fugakukai, we do teach the same non-competition Tomiki aikido. However, what we do isn't very well accepted with the greater aikido community - to the extent that I've been told by a Tomiki sensei in Japan that because of my lineage, what I'm doing isn't really aikido.
> 
> It's frustrating.


 
I and some others here train in Nihon Goshin Aikido and we can identify with these two points, We've heard that what we do isn't Aikdio because our style doesn't come from O'Sensei's lineage. We've heard that we shouldn't call our art Aikido, and all the rest of that crap. I don't  find it frustrating and I bother trying to enlightent the other person, their ignorance is their sensei's problem to handle.


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## okashiibudo

morph4me said:


> I and some others here train in Nihon Goshin Aikido and we can identify with these two points, We've heard that what we do isn't Aikdio because our style doesn't come from O'Sensei's lineage. We've heard that we shouldn't call our art Aikido, and all the rest of that crap. I don't find it frustrating and I bother trying to enlightent the other person, their ignorance is their sensei's problem to handle.


 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not losing any sleep over it. It just gets a bit old after a while, to know that when you travel, you'll have to find a dojo or club from your particular lineage to train in, or else not train at all.

But I can say that, in my opinion at least, the aikido taught by Karl Geis and his direct lineage is perfectly effective, straight-up no-BS aikido, and it should be more widely accepted by some of the folks who've bashed it. 

I must admit, though, that I'm not familiar with Nihon Goshin Aikido at all. Can you point me to it?


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## morph4me

Here are a couple of links that you can take a look at. We are a very small association and are located mostly on the east coast, with a couple of dojos in New Mexico and Washington state. Theletch or I will be happy to answer any questions you may have, either here or in PM's.

http://www.aikidoinc.com/bowe.asp

http://aikidoschoolofselfdefense.com


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## theletch1

Yeah, always happy to answer questions.  Many of the hombu stylist will tell us that we should refer to our style as aikijujitsu rather than aikido because of this, that, or the other thing.  The lineage thing has always really irked me when taken to the extreme of putting someone down like that.  Study what you want, call it what you want.  If it works it works.  If it doesn't then time will tell the tale and the art will disappear.

As for finding a dojo that teaches your style or not training at all, well, my friend, if you show up at my door to train you're welcome to train.  I don't care what other style of aikido you study so long as you understand that it's my dojo and you are a guest.  I'm always looking to train with other aikido-ka (and really any other stylist out there) to learn other ways of doing things.  Several members of this board have standing offers to visit and train at our school here in the Roanoke, Va area.  Check the link in my sig line for my local school.


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## charyuop

theletch1 said:


> As for finding a dojo that teaches your style or not training at all, well, my friend, if you show up at my door to train you're welcome to train. I don't care what other style of aikido you study so long as you understand that it's my dojo and you are a guest. I'm always looking to train with other aikido-ka (and really any other stylist out there) to learn other ways of doing things. Several members of this board have standing offers to visit and train at our school here in the Roanoke, Va area. Check the link in my sig line for my local school.


Oximoron?? You welcome other Aikidoka to train at your dojo as long as they realize they are guest, but you like to train their styles?

I have read before people finding uneasy because they learnt one way of doing things and then because they have to move, they go to a new dojo and have problems to adapt. I don't think that should be a problem. If you go to a dojo you learn what is taught there...in the future you will find your own Aikido when you have knowledge enough to decide.


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## theletch1

charyuop said:


> Oximoron?? You welcome other Aikidoka to train at your dojo as long as they realize they are guest, but you like to train their styles?
> 
> I have read before people finding uneasy because they learnt one way of doing things and then because they have to move, they go to a new dojo and have problems to adapt. I don't think that should be a problem. If you go to a dojo you learn what is taught there...in the future you will find your own Aikido when you have knowledge enough to decide.


 
Not an oxymoron at all.  What I mean by that statement is that I don't expect someone to come to my dojo and tell me that what I am doing is wrong because his/her style doesn't do it that way.  I expect them to be courteous enough to point out that there are differences between the way my style does it and the way theirs does it.  At that point we can explore the differences.  I would not dream of walking into another man's dojo and telling him that what he was doing was wrong...because I am his quest.  It's a simple matter of respecting your host.


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## morph4me

theletch1 said:


> Not an oxymoron at all. What I mean by that statement is that I don't expect someone to come to my dojo and tell me that what I am doing is wrong because his/her style doesn't do it that way. I expect them to be courteous enough to point out that there are differences between the way my style does it and the way theirs does it. At that point we can explore the differences. I would not dream of walking into another man's dojo and telling him that what he was doing was wrong...because I am his quest. It's a simple matter of respecting your host.


 

I understand what Jeff is saying. I've dealt with some of these people at seminar's telling one of my students that the technique he was doing wasn't correct, and then teaching him the way they did it at his dojo. The fact was that the student was a beginner and he was doing the technique incorrectly, but the guy teaching him got offended when I demonstrated the way we do it, and he had to tap:idunno:.


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## okashiibudo

Thanks for the invitation. I don't get up that way very often, but if I do I'll certainly stop in and check you guys out. As for me remembering that I'm a guest, to consider myself a guest in your dojo would be an honor.

I understand all the different angles of this question that have been posted. I'm afraid my post was poorly written. What I meant was that, while yes many of us train in different styles, there are also Tomiki schools here in the US and elsewhere that would not recognize the training of someone who comes from a Geis school (the same is true of some non-Geis schools as well, of course). 
My school is not part of Fugakukai, but we owe a lot to them. My teacher, most of our senior guys, and basically our style itself, came from Geis Sensei's school. The aikido he teaches is different in some respects from the Tomiki aikido taught in many other places, and it doesn't look much like what's taught within the Shodokan in Japan. But it's perfectly legit and was designed by Tomiki Sensei himself, along with some of his senior shihan, including Geis Sensei.

My post was meant to lament what I see as unnecessary fractionalization of the art, which is mainly due to ignorance and personal prejudices. I don't mean to turn this thread into a kumbaya love-fest about different styles and all that, but I would personally like to see some reconciliation between aikido organizations, wherever possible, and better acceptance of the Geis system (and others) wherever applicable.

I love the idea of NGA, now that I've read a little on it. Thanks for the heads-up; I didn't even know it was out there.


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## theletch1

I know where you're coming from.  The fractionalization isn't just restricted to the aikido world.  You'll see it in every art form.  Lineage, IMO, holds an undue sway in the MA world.  It's a good way to show that there is some legitimacy to an art for someone just reading about it but real legitimacy can only come from training in the art.  It spreads from within an art to looking down on other arts because they don't follow the same doctrine that you do.  One hard style puts down another, one soft style does the same and then it's hard vs soft and so on.  That's one of the great things about Martialtalk.  We get to share concepts with so many other styles and learn that we really aren't as alien to one another as we may have thought.  Good luck in your journey.


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## morph4me

I think the fractionalization is based on the fact that we are drawn to arts whose focus is in line with our own preferences. 

I've been involved with NGA for the last 20 years or so, I've also studied Aikikai and Tomiki. The focus of NGA is self defense, Tomiki is sport application, and Aikikai has a more spiritual focus. The only way that I can see the fractionalization ending is for everyone to see the value of the other arts and the point of view of the practioners of those arts. That's a tall order for most people.


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## okashiibudo

morph4me said:


> I think the fractionalization is based on the fact that we are drawn to arts whose focus is in line with our own preferences.


 
Agreed. Except that a lot of the fractionalization occurs within each art. Within Tomiki aikido, there is a heavy rift between those who believe that Tomiki is entirely a sport-oriented art, and those (like the Fugakukai) who believe that is was only adapted for sport, but is in fact a viable self-defense system.

Obviously, I (like anyone) have my opinions on the matter, but of course I wouldn't want to cast dispersions on anyone else's opinion either. We're all aikidoka as far as I'm concerned.


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