# 10th Dan?



## SamT (Jul 1, 2008)

Most of my experience with the martial arts is in Tang Soo Do, which is a Korean art. Under most Korean arts, the highest obtainable rank is 9th Dan, which I believe is because 10th Dan is viewed as perfect. To us, perfection is unattainable.

However, I've heard of 10th Dans in Japanese martial arts, and if you'll pardon my ignorance, what does it mean when one achieves 10th Dan? Does it mean that that person has perfected their art? Or does it mean something entirely different?

Thanks in advance.


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## arnisador (Jul 1, 2008)

It depends on the art! For some it's a unique rank for the grandmaster; for others, no. Ninjutsu and judo have super-ranks above 10th (with caveats--e.g., in judo you have to be dead first).


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## girlbug2 (Jul 1, 2008)

In Kenpo it is indeed attainable for a grandmaster to achieve 10th degree. It does not mean perfect however. Beyond that I'm not sure what the specific requirements are.


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## dancingalone (Jul 1, 2008)

> However, I've heard of 10th Dans in Japanese martial arts, and if you'll pardon my ignorance, what does it mean when one achieves 10th Dan?



These days it generally means you're looking at an organization head or an inheritor of a style, assuming this is a truly 'traditional' art.  Personally, I don't really even pay attention to the rank of a person anymore, since ranks are so inflated.  There there plenty of outstanding sensei out there who are lowly sandans or godans.

Here in the US, it seems like there's a 10th dan who created his own art falling out of every tree you shake.  Overranked people are truly a pestilence in the martial arts.


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## pgsmith (Jul 2, 2008)

As Arnisador said, it depends upon the art. In order to get a better idea of the dan ranking system, it is necessary to have some information about where it came from. Jigoro Kano, the creator of modern judo, was the first to apply the dan, or step, ranking system to the martial arts. He was a school teacher and saw that the swim teams used this system. He thought it would be a good way of differentiating skill levels in his newly created judo. It proved very popular, and was adopted by the Japanese karate systems when they began to become prominent in Japan in the early 1900's. 

Today, the majority of schools use a dan ranking system, usually consisting of ten steps. Ten is an arbitrary number though, and I know of at least one organization that is up to fifteen dan ranks. Many of the old koryu arts use both dan ranks and menkyo certificates, or don't have any dan ranking at all. The problem in any ranking system is that it is only applicable _within a given system_. There are many umbrella organizations which grant dan ranks. These are meant to maintain consistency across schools, usually for competition as in judo or kendo. Due to the veritable plethora of umbrella organizations within the karate community, it is very difficult to assign a skill level based solely upon dan ranking within a particular art. Since there is no oversight organization for the martial arts (thank goodness!), it is up to individual organizations to set criteria as to what constitutes a proper skill level for any particular rank.

Most people who aren't directly involved in the martial arts, and many who are, don't understand that any rank is irrelevant outside of the organization that granted it. Many older organizations that have well publicized (not to mention difficult) criteria for their rankings are acknowledged amongst themselves. A hachidan (8th dan) in kyudo with the all Japan kyudo federation would be granted the honor due to a hachidan within the all Japan kendo federation, as would a hachidan within the all Japan iaido federation. Organizations such as these are well known and familiar with each other. Meanwhile, if you take a hachidan from the American jujitsu Federation (just to pull a name out of my hat), they'd have no idea what to make of him although, being Japanese, they'd still be polite.  

Therefore, it is pretty hard to answer your question without knowing the specific art to which you refer.

Hope that helps, and doesn't just confuse things!


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## Grenadier (Jul 2, 2008)

There are some ranking systems that are somewhat universally recognized by a large number of Karate-ka, though.  If someone is willing to test with the USA-NKF or the WKF, he can obtain a dan ranking by performing the requirements, in front of the panel.  Such ranks go from shodan through hachidan.  

http://www.usankf.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=30


The USA-NKF even specifically states, that their ranking system is not meant to replace or promote any particular style of Karate, and that you have to hold at least an equivalent ranking in your own system, before being allowed to test for an equivalent ranking with the USA-NKF.  

Still, just because someone holds a USA-NKF or WKF Dan certification doesn't mean that every Karate school will (or even should) accept their ranking.  It's up to the school, of course.


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## thetruth (Jul 6, 2008)

arnisador said:


> It depends on the art! For some it's a unique rank for the grandmaster; for others, no. Ninjutsu and judo have super-ranks above 10th (with caveats--e.g., in judo you have to be dead first).




I believe that the current grandmaster of a style should be 10th dan.  This rank can be taken by their successor when they pass away.   If a founder/grandmaster passes away before they name a successor then regardless of what happens I don't believe anyone should ever be able to take that rank. They should show respect for them.   All of this ***** about being ranked by ones own organisation/students is deplorable and makes a mockery of the martial arts.  It then becomes an ego issue.   As for the ranks above 10th dan such is Ninjitsu, well I believe that they would need to have a very tight reign on the way people are ranked as this could cause more issues.  I don't want to comment too critically on this as I am unaware of the inner political workings of the Bujinkan.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Senjojutsu (Jul 6, 2008)

*High Dan Ranks Rant #1:*
Long ago and far away the used to teach arithmetic to elementary school students. You use to learn that eight is twice as much as four, and that ten would be 2 1/2 times as much as four (Now they care more about diversity & self-esteem in school). However for the few adults still here, the one major trouble with assigning numeric values to ranking is the *inherent quantification* involved because of arithmetic. So your styles tenth dan must be superior to this other styles fifth dan. Knowledgeable industry people know this is not true, but damn - those 15th dan ninja must be able to walk through walls, eh?

As noted by Mister Smith, Japanese TMA have used titles/licenses to denote a hierarchy that was not numeric. How many people on this board would know if a Duke title outranks a Baron within European nobility hierarchy. Therefore you get into adjectives that are themselves are quantifiers; master becomes grandmaster, which then becomes great grandmaster. 

Also some Japanese koryu headmaster succession protocols deal with other factors. Such as family line inheritance - or other lifestyle criteria outside of just pure performance/merit. BTW, the correct answer on the Duke vs. Baron example is - as a true-blue American  I dont believe in European titles of nobility!


*High Dan Ranks Rant #2:*
When people talk about tenth dan ranks or fifteenth dan ranks, my two immediate thoughts are:
1) What criteria were used and by whom in awarding such high rank?
2) Just as important, what requirements were used in awarding your preceding awarded rank, as in how did you get your 6th dan rank or 13th dan rank?

This year in early May in Kyoto, Japan a ranking examination within the disciplines of Jodo, Iaido and Kendo was done by a major organization. This was a keystone event because there were dozens of 7th dan participants trying for their 8th dan ranking.

*The success (pass) rate of the dozens who tested during this Kyoto event was under six percent (6%) in each of the three martial arts. Think about that!* 

Now as a grizzled MA veteran, somehow, I know perhaps some organizational politics may have been involved in some minor manner within these promotions. 

But compared to these self-promoted _I founded my own style_ rankings, well to be polite, just get out of the floor and show me your skill level with techniques, or lead a seminar and show me your teaching abilities. 

Also as long as I am in a judging mood, after the seminar lets go to the pub and have a brew or two, see how you interact with others within a social setting. Is the Chosen One 10th dan holder a pompous cheap bastard who stiffs the waitress?

end rant
:soapbox:


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## Grenadier (Jul 9, 2008)

Senjojutsu said:


> So your styles tenth dan must be superior to this other styles fifth dan. Knowledgeable industry people know this is not true, but damn - those 15th dan ninja must be able to walk through walls, eh?




It depends from one style to another, of course.  

I doubt that they could walk through walls, but if someone were appointed a 15th Dan by Hatsumi sensei, for example, I would feel quite comfortable in saying that they must be pretty darn good.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 11, 2008)

> I believe that the current grandmaster of a style should be 10th dan. This rank can be taken by their successor when they pass away.



That's pretty much what a Mankyo Kaiden is. A certificate of total transmission, these are usually given when someones given everything they've got and are ready to pass the ryu on.



> Is the Chosen One 10th dan holder a pompous cheap bastard who stiffs the waitress?



Never stiff the waitress, especially if you intend to eat or drink there again. Last thing you want is 'less than amiable' service.:whip1:


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## Pacificshore (Jul 13, 2008)

I like to equate 9th dans and above as CEO's of any large organization.  It doesn't mean any one of them have prefected their art, it just means that they have met whatever "goals" necessary to obtain that ranking.  Sometimes obtaining such ranking can be done through self promotion (and we can often time figure those types of "CEO'S" upon hearing them speak and refer to themselves in the 3rd person , or age vs. time in the arts), or by a vote of your peers, etc.

At any rate, many if not all have made some significant contributions into their art, and at some point in time no longer take an active teaching aspect, but dessiminates the information through their executives beneath them.  Hope this makes some sense


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 1, 2008)

SamT said:


> Most of my experience with the martial arts is in Tang Soo Do, which is a Korean art. Under most Korean arts, the highest obtainable rank is 9th Dan, which I believe is because 10th Dan is viewed as perfect. To us, perfection is unattainable.
> 
> However, I've heard of 10th Dans in Japanese martial arts, and if you'll pardon my ignorance, what does it mean when one achieves 10th Dan? Does it mean that that person has perfected their art? Or does it mean something entirely different?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I'm not too familiar with tenth dan rankings in Japanese martial arts, though I don't believe that kendo ranks go above eighth or maybe ninth.  With taekwondo, I have a hard time taking most who claim tenth dan seriously.  For one, it is supposed to be posthumous.  Please note: I _don't_ mean that I can't take their _skill_ seriously; they may be fantastically skilled practitioners, but oddly, nearly every advertisement that I see with a tenth dan master pictures some guy who's younger than I am, and at forty one, I am not that old.  Traditionally, both in JMA and KMA, there are age minimums for certain ranks.  Ninth dan is generally over forty in KMA.  

Daniel


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## Keikai (Aug 2, 2008)

Within my own style of ju jutsu there are age restrictions on what grade can be awarded. We grade to 3rd dan via technique and above that you need to be of a certain age and have done something significant to improve your own knowledge and skill as well as contribute to both the art and your school.

Minimum ages start with 30 for 4th dan, 45 for 7th, 60 for 9th and 70 for 10th. You don't have to die to get that one but my teacher was 80 odd and while offered a 10th dan remained a 9th.

While he was a "grand" man and master the thought of the term "grandmaster" makes me cringe at the best of times. What on earth is a "grandmaster"? What does it signify? My own view is one of a person with more ego than substance particuarly when they award themselves and insist on the "title"..


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 4, 2008)

I view the term 'grand master' the way I view the term 'upper management'; you have authority over or have trained up other, lower ranking masters and possibly own multiple schools.

Daniel


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## nadia (Oct 16, 2008)

Grandmaster is a Title.
sure, half the grandmasters today are complete frauds but speaking about their lies on public forumns is not going to change that.

rather demonstarte to people and those masters what a true Martial artist is about.

Our Honour, respect, Skill and Passion.

I have experience in Judo and karate where your goal is to acheiev higher belts and i do admit that this is the wrong aim.

this is why i balance my walking of the way by practising Taji Gong where the only titles are 
Junior student
student
senior student
teacher
and then our deceased sifu Kenny Gong, may his wisdom live on...

so yeh, ignore rank, title's and other such labels, just judge people on thier technique and honour code.

some fraud looking masters are actually very skilled and some are not, dont judge until you know.


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## hpulley (Oct 16, 2008)

I don't think most students even know the difference between a shodan belt and a godan belt.  It doesn't really matter as accomplished martial artists show what they know by demonstrating, not by parading a belt around. Ranks are not to be ignored, IMO, but they are not the most important thing.  I've been helped by some excellent kyuu belt senpai and conversely I've found some dan grade senpai to be very poor teachers, even though they are very proficient at their own art.

In the two schools where I have some experience (one is judo/BJJ, other is karate/kobudo/taiji) the ranks up to about yondan (4th black belt) are mostly based upon a person's ability and after that it is more based upon what you have done for the art rather than what it has done for you.  Of course even in the kyuu ranks you help your kohai so really everyone is teaching to a degree but of course the dan grade senpai lead the class during the warmups and basics and they train the lower kyuu grades for the kihon.  My karate dojo's sensei is a godan (5th) and he is very good but for him to proceed to rokudan he would need to do some original work, write a book, etc. but he is improving all the time and introducing new (to the dojo, old from Asia) techniques and if he can manage to put them into writing/pictures I'm sure he can make that book.  The head sensei of the organization which is across Canada plus a dojo or two in the USA is a kudan (9th).

In Judo Canada it is similar and ranks above 4th dan indicate that you are advancing the sport on more than a local level.  The higher the dan, the higher the advancement of the sport and they are more honorary than anything.  There may be an exam for kodansha but it is more a demonstration of ability than anything else.  Most old judokas of such a high rank don't participate in randorii anymore but they can teach very well.  Even in kyuu ranks Judo Canada is all about participation points so you must either compete or help out in tournaments, etc. and this only increases with the dan grades.  This actually turned me off from it as I wanted a martial art, not a sport but it is what it is.


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## pgsmith (Oct 16, 2008)

> sure, half the grandmasters today are complete frauds but speaking about their lies on public forumns is not going to change that.


Probably not, but more information is ALWAYS a good thing! 

If a person is thinking of joining a martial arts class, I'm sure they would Google the instructor. If the instructor is a fraud, and his fraudulent practices are being discussed on the internet, this will show up in that search. If the prospective student decides that that the instructor is talented enough that his lies don't matter, then so be it. However, it can prevent someone from going to said instructor in complete ignorance, and only finding out later that he was a fraud.


> I have experience in Judo and karate where your goal is to acheiev higher belts and i do admit that this is the wrong aim.


Not necessarily. It depends upon what you are in it for. It is very much like saying that your aim should not be to win games in the local recreational basketball league. If you are practicing a competitive sport, which many judo and karate dojo are about, then you should compete to win. In order to compete properly, you should advance in rank so your competition is at the same level. Therefore, your goal *should* be to achieve higher ranking. However, if you are in a traditional MA dojo where competition does not play such a large part, then knowledge and personal improvement should be your goal.


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## Brian S (Oct 17, 2008)

Keikai said:


> Within my own style of ju jutsu there are age restrictions on what grade can be awarded. We grade to 3rd dan via technique and above that you need to be of a certain age and have done something significant to improve your own knowledge and skill as well as contribute to both the art and your school.
> 
> Minimum ages start with 30 for 4th dan, 45 for 7th, 60 for 9th and 70 for 10th. You don't have to die to get that one but my teacher was 80 odd and while offered a 10th dan remained a 9th.
> 
> While he was a "grand" man and master the thought of the term "grandmaster" makes me cringe at the best of times. What on earth is a "grandmaster"? What does it signify? My own view is one of a person with more ego than substance particuarly when they award themselves and insist on the "title"..


 
 I'd like to echo this quote! The age thing really has gotten lax. 30yr old 8th and 9th dans? I guess it comes from 5yr old shodans!!??


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## yorkshirelad (Mar 24, 2009)

Brian S said:


> I'd like to echo this quote! The age thing really has gotten lax. 30yr old 8th and 9th dans? I guess it comes from 5yr old shodans!!??


In Japanese Koryu arts some of the practitioners were awarded a Menkyo Kaidan certificates in their teens. Examples of this include, Takamatsu sensei (13 years old) and Tanemura Sensei of the Genbukan (15 years old). If tenth dan is reserved for the Soke, then Menkyo Kaidan would be approximately equivelant eighth or ninth Dan. The restriction on age for most koryu is a relatively recent phenomenon.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> In Japanese Koryu arts some of the practitioners were awarded a Menkyo Kaidan certificates in their teens. Examples of this include, Takamatsu sensei (13 years old) and Tanemura Sensei of the Genbukan (15 years old).


 
Menkyo/kaiden is a pre-organization practice. 

Most organizations will consider you a master at fourth or fifth anyway. In some organizations, you can reach fourth dan by the age of fifteen. It really depends on the org, but there is no dan equivalent to a menkyo/kaiden. 



yorkshirelad said:


> If tenth dan is reserved for the Soke, then Menkyo Kaidan would be approximately equivelant eighth or ninth Dan. The restriction on age for most koryu is a relatively recent phenomenon.


Of course the age/dan is recent. The whole kyu/dan system in the martial arts is recent, less than a hundred years.  Also, when Koryo arts were founded, you didn't have millions of practitioners worldwide looking to get involved.  Dealing with a worldwide membership count wasn't an issue at the time; the school was based in one location with maybe a few senior students teaching in the same region.  

Tenth dan doesn't automatically make you a soke equvallent. Some systems go up to 15. There is only one soke at a time, whereas tenth dan is _usually_ conferred to you by an organization or you have gone out and started your own org and promoted yourself to 9th or 10th dan. 

Modern orgs that use the kyu/dan system exercise complete control over the nature and practice of the art. You don't inherit sokeship at any dan. The 'soke' in a modern MA is a board of directors or the head of whatever organization regulates the art. 

Daniel


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## Dale Seago (Mar 24, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Tenth dan doesn't automatically make you a soke equvallent. Some systems go up to 15.


 
The only one I know of that does is mine, the Bujinkan. See http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks

This ranking system has no relevance to, or meaningful points of correspondence with, ranking in any other organization or art.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> The only one I know of that does is mine, the Bujinkan. See http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks
> 
> This ranking system has no relevance to, or meaningful points of correspondence with, ranking in any other organization or art.


Bujinkan is the only legitimate system that I am aware of that goes to fifteen, though I have seen ads for guys in magazines who claim to be thirteenth dan in taekwondo or hapkido, so I suppose that there are other systems that get into dans in the teens.

Daniel


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## Senjojutsu (Mar 25, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Bujinkan is the only legitimate system that I am aware of that goes to fifteen, though I have seen ads for guys in magazines who claim to be thirteenth dan in taekwondo or hapkido, so I suppose that there are other systems that get into dans in the teens.
> 
> Daniel


However neither Tae Kwon Do or Hapkido are JMA, which goes back to the opening post's question.

So outside of the Ninjers - name one Japanese-centric MA organization whose leaders have something higher than 10th dan rank?

Here is a link regarding 10th dans in Kodokan Judo:

http://www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm

Again even a 10th dan doesn't convey perfection or an end to learning, think of it as the apex rank awarded by the organization. Or like an Oscar awarded for "lifetime achievement".

But at that altitude, it may be more to determine who gets to line up first at the buffet table, or more succinctly when Numero Uno dies, does it convey order of succession? _(Maybe not by the way - succession sequence has other influences.)_


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 25, 2009)

Senjojutsu said:


> However neither Tae Kwon Do or Hapkido are JMA, which goes back to the opening post's question.
> 
> So outside of the Ninjers - name one Japanese-centric MA organization whose leaders have something higher than 10th dan rank?


 
Wasn't the point.  Since outside of Bujinkan, these guys seem to be either self appointed or hold rank through someone who is, I'd be more surprised if some white guy _hadn't_ appointed himself as a higher than tenth dan in a JMA.  But I'm not going to comb Blackbelt Magazine's advertising archives in an attempt to find one.

In any case my point was the same thing that you state below:



Senjojutsu said:


> Here is a link regarding 10th dans in Kodokan Judo:
> 
> http://www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm
> 
> ...


I agree with you on both of these paragraphs 100%.  In a large org, when numero uno dies or steps down, their successor is generally voted in by the officers of the org.

Daniel 

Daniel


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## arnisador (Mar 25, 2009)

Senjojutsu said:


> Here is a link regarding 10th dans in Kodokan Judo:
> 
> http://www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm



In Judo you can, in principle, go to 12th (posthumously). Even Spinal tap only went to 11!

In some other JMAs, esp. some weapons systems, the limit is 5th or 8th.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 27, 2009)

In aiki ninjutsu 10th dan means you have been awarded menkyo kaiden in the system and have permission to make any changes to the way you teach the art and still be a recognized Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu instructor.

no one has attained it yet or will attain it for a very long time.


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## Milt G. (Jul 26, 2009)

Hello,
Sorry I am late on this one. 

Yes, sadly, ranking has become more inflated the last 20 years, or so.

Used to be only a half dozen, or so, Judan in all the world.  Now there seems to be that many per metropolitan area!

All the more reason we have to actually see what an instructor can do, and not always trust a specific ranking.  If they can "dance", it will show!  Especially important as there is no one governing body, and the standards are different for most organizations.  Of course, skill can be considered somewhat subjective.  I have seen many highly skilled junior Dan grades, and less skilled high Dan grades.

I think that having physical/curriculum based requirements to Godan is good.  The higher levels (above, say, Godan) for contribution to the art, teaching and administrative position within the organization.  I do know that some of the inflated ranking is due, in part, to allowing students the ability to promote.  I have seen quite a few schools that have head instructors at Sandan, or below, and that have many advanced students "log jammed" below their teachers level.  I can see some "adjustments" made, in this case, to help facilitate the continued growth and advancement of the student base.
Certainly not to diminish the standards of the art, though.

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 27, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> I think that having physical/curriculum based requirements to Godan is good. The higher levels (above, say, Godan) for contribution to the art, teaching and administrative position within the organization.


I agree with your post, but I do find this part a bit odd: higher levels?  Usually, administrative dans began at about fifth or sixth in _most_ systems.  Many systems do not even have a tenth; kendo only goes to eighth at this point (ninth was eliminated).  Those that do have one often do not have anything higher that is not posthumous (I know that the Bujinkan and maybe the other X-kans go higher than tenth).

In any case, I am totally with the main thrust of your post.

Daniel


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## Milt G. (Jul 27, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I agree with your post, but I do find this part a bit odd: higher levels? Usually, administrative dans began at about fifth or sixth in _most_ systems. Many systems do not even have a tenth; kendo only goes to eighth at this point (ninth was eliminated). Those that do have one often do not have anything higher that is not posthumous (I know that the Bujinkan and maybe the other X-kans go higher than tenth).
> 
> In any case, I am totally with the main thrust of your post.
> 
> Daniel


 
Thanks, Daniel, for your reply.

I know that arts, groups and organizations do things differently.  Some time ago, many systems terminated at Godan.  These days many go somewhat higher, in varying degrees.  No pun intended. 

I do not know if I would feel comfortable advertising myself above 10th Dan, though.  Even if that were the case...  I mean...  What would people think???  

Thanks again,
Milt G.


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 28, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> (I know that the Bujinkan and maybe the other X-kans go higher than tenth).



Only Bujinkan afaik. In Genbukan, 10th is highest, but only attainable by the one who will become grandmaster. The highest grade presently awarded is 8th, and Genbukan exists for 25 years already.


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## yorkshirelad (Jul 28, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Menkyo/kaiden is a pre-organization practice.
> 
> Most organizations will consider you a master at fourth or fifth anyway. In some organizations, you can reach fourth dan by the age of fifteen. It really depends on the org, but there is no dan equivalent to a menkyo/kaiden.
> 
> ...


You have to see my point, menkyo Kaiden represents complete transmition of the art, therefore the highest rank excluding inheritor, or soke. My comments were to try to put the whole rank thing into perspective. If thirteen year olds were given menkyo Kaiden (Takamatsu and I believe Tanemura recieved his first Menkyo kaiden at 15) then there should be no difference between that and a 15 year old child being say fifth, six, or even eighth Dan.
I'm not saying I agree with this sentiment, I'm just saying that traditionally children have been awarded high rank in Koryu.


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## yorkshirelad (Jul 28, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Only Bujinkan afaik. In Genbukan, 10th is highest, but only attainable by the one who will become grandmaster. The highest grade presently awarded is 8th, and Genbukan exists for 25 years already.


Technically Bujinkan go to 10th Dan and the subsequent ranks are all levels of 10th Dan. This can be confusing, so I believe even Hatsumi has begun using the terms 11th Dan, 12th Dan ect.


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## Live True (Jul 28, 2009)

Being a relative newbie, I can't speak to the politics or from years of experience, but I do know that one of the leaders in my style, Sensei George Mattson was just recently promoted to 10th Dan (last Saturday, in fact).

In this case, it was an honor conveyed upon him by the organization he founded (IUKF-International Uechi Karate Federation) and his numerous past students.  Sensei Mattson has taught Uechi Ryu for over 50 years and is recognized as a the first American taught Uechi-Ryu in Okinawa and the first to bring this style to America.  While I understand this title was given as an honor, he did perform the Seisan kata for all in attendence at his summer camp, just prior to being awarded this title.

As I understand it Uechi has two ranks that run concurrently from sixth degree onward.  Master titles are honorific titles awarded for contributions to the art and follow: Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi, and Hanshi Sei.  Dan Ranks are based on demonstrated skill and flow from Godan (fifth) to Rokudan, Nanadan, Hachidan, Kudan, and Judan. We do not have a rank after this.

Obviously, when you get to the last few Dan ranks, there is a bit of overlap.  I do not think you can seek to "test" for any ranks after Godan, and must be invited to "test".

Perhaps it is my ignorance, but it appears this ranking was given out of respect, and not to build or pad a resume.  In all my interactions with Sensei Mattson, he has been a humble, freindly, and honorable man.  I think the fact that I am a relative newbie (just under 3 years), live several states away, and have had interactions with the man say volumes as well (I readily admit I moderate one of the forums on his website, as a disclaimer). I have, though, been impressed with his humble freindliness and longevity in the art.  I do not think he is perfect, but he has certainly made significant contributions to the art's growth and existence. Is this not what master and dan ranks should be?

I realize that master/dan ranks are not equal across all styles or even all schools.  But I think it does those teachers who have earned their titles a great disservice to immediately assume most higher ranks are "gimme's".  Why not let the person show thier worth before you assume..both in how they carry themselves and also in how they perform?

Humbly offered and posted,


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 28, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> You have to see my point, menkyo Kaiden represents complete transmition of the art, therefore the highest rank excluding inheritor, or soke. My comments were to try to put the whole rank thing into perspective. If thirteen year olds were given menkyo Kaiden (Takamatsu and I believe Tanemura recieved his first Menkyo kaiden at 15) then there should be no difference between that and a 15 year old child being say fifth, six, or even eighth Dan.
> I'm not saying I agree with this sentiment, I'm just saying that traditionally children have been awarded high rank in Koryu.


Good points, though I would venture that those two individuals are exceptions to the norm.  Most youngsters cannot write a symphony, though Mozart did.

Also, Menkyo Kaiden and tenth dan do not automatically equivocate.  Dan ranks above fifth are generally awarded more for what one has done for the art rather than for their technical ability and exhaustive knowledge in the art.  Time in grade is a factor as well, so in many orgs, a fifteen year old may not even be able to hold a rank higher than first dan.  The kyu/dan system awards rank on a different basis than what an Menkyo/Kaiden is awarded for.  By fifth dan, a student has often learned an arts complete curriculum and has likely been teaching for several years, frequently in their own dojo.  Thus, the entire curriculum has already been transmitted to them. 

In any case, the big issue with tenth dans seems to be not their age, but that so many seem to be self promoted.

Daniel


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jul 28, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In any case, the big issue with tenth dans seems to be not their age, but that so many seem to be self promoted.
> 
> Daniel


This issue does cause heated debate and there is no real answer to how 10th Dan should be awarded, more so in the Gendai and western systems.

A former teacher of mine was promoted to 8th Dan by a board of quite distinguished masters and he tested for the rank. He has a great deal of experience in two forms of gendai jujutsu and American Kenpo. His testing panel included three very well known "old school" Kenpo Grandmasters, two Jujutsu Grandmasters one of whom was also a Lua grandmaster, one other Lua grandmaster, a founder of Lima Lama and a very prominant Shorin ryu master and yet, many in the Kenpo community refused to recognize his rank. The strange thing is that of those who refused to recognize some had awarded themselves their 10th Dan.

The problem is there is no real standard for 10th Dan. There is no true International governing body for all martial arts and if there was, (like IMAF for instance) people would just ignore it, in favour of quick, self promotion.

Mr Parker was once asked what basis he had for promoting himself to 10th Dan and his answer was (i'm paraphrasing) "I observed the standard of my peers and ranked myself accordingly." Regardless of what anyone says, Ed Parker was a true 10th Dan because he truly founded his own art and developed concepts and principles that had not been covered before. I would say that the worth of a 10th Dan is the acceptance of one's students and peers.


----------



## Milt G. (Jul 28, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> This issue does cause heated debate and there is no real answer to how 10th Dan should be awarded, more so in the Gendai and western systems.
> 
> A former teacher of mine was promoted to 8th Dan by a board of quite distinguished masters and he tested for the rank. He has a great deal of experience in two forms of gendai jujutsu and American Kenpo. His testing panel included three very well known "old school" Kenpo Grandmasters, two Jujutsu Grandmasters one of whom was also a Lua grandmaster, one other Lua grandmaster, a founder of Lima Lama and a very prominant Shorin ryu master and yet, many in the Kenpo community refused to recognize his rank. The strange thing is that of those who refused to recognize some had awarded themselves their 10th Dan.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,
Should 10th Dan be awarded by a single person, or a group?  If a person, I would assume someone who already holds said degree?  If a group, what should be the make up, or motive?

Can anyone under 10th Dan bestow such an "honor"?

All of the 10th Dans out there today got them some how...  Some self appointed, some "awarded" by an organization or a person.

So, I wonder what begot the FIRST 10th Dan?  Then, perhaps, the second...?

Ideas, theorys???

Thank you,
Milt G.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 28, 2009)

Just for the record, I do not consider a self promotion to be automatically bad.  

An eighth dan breaking off and self promoting as an organizational head really does not bother me in the least.  

But if it is a matter of' 'he-has-one-so-I-want-one-too' with a barely fifth dan jumping to tenth 'just because', then I think that it is silly.  And when it is done entirely because they know that they can sell more DVD's, then I have a bit of a problem with it.

Daniel


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jul 29, 2009)

My former Sensei was a 4th Dan for years before I met him and for 7 of the almost 12 years I was with him. (The man started Jujutsu in 1962)

His Sensei had stopped practicing the style of Jujutsu our's taught.
Some in our Doj asked the Sensei if he was ever going to promote our Sensei.

 He did 1 better, he bestowed on our Sensie his own Kai of the Ryu, effectivly making himna 10th Dan.

 He was the same the minute before the 10th as he was the minute after.
He also could not get used to being called Soke, so he banned the title in class.

Now that a group of us have left him, we felt it would be trashy for us to do what others have done in the same situation and self promote, at this point.

 My feeling is,, when we are ready to promote someone to the next rank below us, then we will go one higher. Untill then I am happy with my rank, 4th dan is good enough for a 36 year old and would feel like a joke with anything higher than 6th before reaching 50. (and we will probably cut it off there.)


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## yorkshirelad (Jul 29, 2009)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> He also could not get used to being called Soke, so he banned the title in class.


Your sensei was right not to use the title Soke in class. He should be refered to as Sensei. This would be like Donald Trump insisting on being called CEO by his subordinates.
There is no criteria for 10th Dan. Ohtsuka was awarded his 10th in Wado ryu by the Japanese government after recieving a yondan from Funakoshi. Granted, he did have a menkyo Kaiden in JuJutsu. Can you imagine if I advertised that I had a 10th Dan and Barack Obama had awarded it to me?
The inheritor of Kara Ho Kenpo, Sam Kuoha was awarded his 10th by professor Chow's advisor and GP, Dr Donald Perry in a letter, the letter was co authored by Professor Chow's wife Patsy. No one can deny that GM Kuoha is the real deal and a true 10th Dan.
If someone decides to promote themselves to 10th Dan and teach I have no problem with it. Sooner or later they will be villified as a great martial artist or exposed as a fraud.
Personally, at this point in my life, I cannot understand why anyone would want the responsibility of 10th Dan. We are all seasoned Martial Artists (I expect) and we all know that as instructors our students rey on us for much more than martial arts instruction. I cannot fathom the responsibility of the head of an association that holds the goals, dreams and in some cases lives of the mulittudes in their hands. I feel the same way about the President of the US. Why anyone would want that job is beyond me.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 29, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> Your sensei was right not to use the title Soke in class. [...] This would be like Donald Trump insisting on being called CEO by his subordinates.



In fact it would be worse, because Donald Trump _is_ the CEO, but a 10th dan is not a sokeship. This person would not have been a soke.


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## yorkshirelad (Jul 29, 2009)

arnisador said:


> In fact it would be worse, because Donald Trump _is_ the CEO, but a 10th dan is not a sokeship. This person would not have been a soke.


I reread Ceasar's post and noticed that his teacher was given his own "Kai of the ryu". I thought, when I first read the post that the teacher was given/began a ryu, which would've warranted the title of Soke.Maybe Hanshi would have been more accurate.

Whatever title was or wasn't used it has become apparent that some are using embarassingly lofty titles to somehow, perversely elevate their worth as people and Martial Artists, while at the same time using the titlwe out of context.

There are some associations now where the highest ranks come with the title O'Sensei.

Btw, I am not in anyway condemning Ceasar's teacher. My perceptions are based on my experience of many Martial Arts Associations.


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## Milt G. (Jul 29, 2009)

Hello,

It is interesting how "titles" are so flaunted these days.  Perhaps because we, as humans, want to be noticed and affirmed?  I think many miss the true meaning of the titles.  

Traditionally, titles were given to you by others and not spoken to you in your presence.  Like "Oh, that is Shihan so and so".  But you would never use the title to refer to the practitioner in their presence.  That is disrespectful, as the senior should have some humility, and as such be uncomfortable with hearing that.  And never encourage it.  Who welcomes any unnecessary discomfort?

I hear of teachers answering the phone by saying "Master such and such", or "This is grandmaster bla bla bla".  Kind of makes me laugh.  If he were truly known to be a "master" he would not have to remind everyone every chance he/she got the opportunity.  It would be well known already.  

Those of a high skill level, and perhaps ranking, should stand out because of the way they practice their art, carry themselves, and treat other people.  The real "master's, Shihan's, Soke's, etc..." will not be the ones proclaiming it for themselves, or wearing the titles on their uniforms.  They will be the quiet, unassuming ones who sit back, watch, and practice with a calm spirit and a smile.  We have all seen them, right?

I am not saying that the above is always the case, but it is most often the case...  IMHO.

Thank you,
Milt G.


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jul 29, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> It is interesting how "titles" are so flaunted these days. Perhaps because we, as humans, want to be noticed and affirmed? I think many miss the true meaning of the titles.
> 
> ...


 You have a very good point. For instance, Ueshiba was never refered to as O'Sensei in his presence, it was a informal name given by his students when refering to him. To his face, his students called him Sensei.

Now people are using the term O'Sensei as a title when refering to themselves, it's just embarasing.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 30, 2009)

But what if you are an Irishman of the Senseigh clan?  After Ellis Island mangled your family name, might not you then really be *O*'Sensei?

Daniel


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## mwd0818 (Jul 30, 2009)

I was referred to by an Okinawan stylist the other day as Sensei.  He's perhaps 20 or 30 years my senior and I'm guessing has just a few more years in the arts than I do.  I laughed and told him not to call me that, it's just weird . . . 

Then again, I teach and train in American arts, and we generally stay away from most of the titles and honorifics used in Japanese or Chinese (or Korean).  I stick with Mr. for the kids, and for adults, well, you can call me what you want, and if its disrespectful, we can work that out on the mat.


----------



## Milt G. (Jul 30, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> You have a very good point. For instance, Ueshiba was never refered to as O'Sensei in his presence, it was a informal name given by his students when refering to him. To his face, his students called him Sensei.
> 
> Now people are using the term O'Sensei as a title when refering to themselves, it's just embarasing.


 
Hello,
I agree.  A little "interesting" to me that one would take, much less, refer to themselves as, such a lofty title.
I know of, perhaps, a handful of practitioners in the last 100 years who would qualify for the title "O-Sensei" IMO.  The founder of Aikido was one. 
Oh well, many different persons, and personalities to consider.
Thanks for your reply.
Milt G.


----------



## Milt G. (Jul 30, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> I was referred to by an Okinawan stylist the other day as Sensei. He's perhaps 20 or 30 years my senior and I'm guessing has just a few more years in the arts than I do. I laughed and told him not to call me that, it's just weird . . .
> 
> Then again, I teach and train in American arts, and we generally stay away from most of the titles and honorifics used in Japanese or Chinese (or Korean). I stick with Mr. for the kids, and for adults, well, you can call me what you want, and if its disrespectful, we can work that out on the mat.


 
Hello,
I do not think that "Sensei", "Sifu", "Teacher" or "Instructor" are inappropriate titles if one, in fact, teaches.

What I usually refer to as "interesting" are the titles above those.  Starting with the first level above.  Not that I feel them inappropriate by and large, I do not.

I just feel that some of their useage(s) is "over emphasized".

Could very well be an American thing. 

Thank you,
Milt G.


----------



## mwd0818 (Jul 30, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> I do not think that "Sensei", "Sifu", "Teacher" or "Instructor" are inappropriate titles if one, in fact, teaches.



It was strange just because I would consider him a Senior to me, in which case, I am not a teacher, but rather a student.  That, and well, more titles . . . Inappropriate?  No.  Strange?  Yes.

Signed,

Almighty Great Grand O'Master Shihan Hanshi Soke Sensei Kai Roku Ippon SeoiNage Kobudo Geisha

^That's what happens when you let Americans with no real knowledge of language come up with their own titles . . .


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 30, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> It was strange just because I would consider him a Senior to me, in which case, I am not a teacher, but rather a student. That, and well, more titles . . . Inappropriate? No. Strange? Yes.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> ...


It would be nice if my girlfriend were a kobudo geisha.

Daniel


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jul 30, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It would be nice if my girlfriend were a kobudo geisha.
> Daniel


Yes, I like being slapped about by the ladies too.


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## yorkshirelad (Jul 30, 2009)

All this talk about titles just reminded me of an incident that happened seven or eight years ago. I was speaking to Gene LaBelle and called him "Sir". He instantly got a fierce look on his face and hissed "My name's Gene, Domnic". I felt weird because the respect I have for him dictates that I call him sir, but he WANTS to be called by his name. Then I got to thinking. His name IS his title. When Ed Parker was alive, his name was important. Anyone in EPAK who has his name on their BB cert on the instructor line, is shown to be legit, the real deal. If the name didn't have Granmaster behind it noone would care. It's the same with Gene LaBelle. Noone has to say LaBelle Hanshi for anyone to take notice, they just have to say Gene LaBelle and the name is the seal of quality. I think all instructors should learn from this mindset.


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## mwd0818 (Jul 30, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> All this talk about titles just reminded me of an incident that happened seven or eight years ago. I was speaking to Gene LaBelle and called him "Sir". He instantly got a fierce look on his face and hissed "My name's Gene, Domnic". I felt weird because the respect I have for him dictates that I call him sir, but he WANTS to be called by his name. Then I got to thinking. His name IS his title. When Ed Parker was alive, his name was important. Anyone in EPAK who has his name on their BB cert on the instructor line, is shown to be legit, the real deal. If the name didn't have Granmaster behind it noone would care. It's the same with Gene LaBelle. Noone has to say LaBelle Hanshi for anyone to take notice, they just have to say Gene LaBelle and the name is the seal of quality. I think all instructors should learn from this mindset.



Unfortunately, too many instructors fail to understand why their name doesn't carry that weight, therefore they insist on the titles.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 30, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> All this talk about titles just reminded me of an incident that happened seven or eight years ago. I was speaking to Gene LaBelle and called him "Sir". He instantly got a fierce look on his face and hissed "My name's Gene, Domnic".


I am sorry, but unless he was expressing mock outrage for comedic value (or had asked you previously not to call him that), Gene was being rude.

In most circumstances, it is polite to address people as sir and maam.  This is not martial arts, but simple courtesy.  A sargeant telling a private in the military, "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is appropriate.  The same sargeant saying that to a retail clerk is rude.

Gene should simply have said, "Just call me Gene."

Daniel


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## yorkshirelad (Jul 30, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am sorry, but unless he was expressing mock outrage for comedic value (or had asked you previously not to call him that), Gene was being rude.
> 
> In most circumstances, it is polite to address people as sir and maam. This is not martial arts, but simple courtesy. A sargeant telling a private in the military, "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is appropriate. The same sargeant saying that to a retail clerk is rude.
> 
> ...


It does sound that way, but I negated to tell you that he had told me nicely to call him Gene numerous times before and I kept on with the "sir" business. It is a hard habit to break, when faced with ones elders and betters, but I finally got the message.

He also has that quirky, impish humour. As someone who is not close to him, I believe it would be hard to tell if he was simply joking around. It's best to er on the side of caution.


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## Milt G. (Jul 30, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> It was strange just because I would consider him a Senior to me, in which case, I am not a teacher, but rather a student. That, and well, more titles . . . Inappropriate? No. Strange? Yes.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> ...


 
Hello,
It is always surprising, and may sound strange, when your seniors acknowledge your teaching and learning skills.

We often refer to each other as "Sensei", regardless of our respective (no pun intended) rank or position.

Part of the journey, I think?

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jul 30, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am sorry, but unless he was expressing mock outrage for comedic value (or had asked you previously not to call him that), Gene was being rude.
> 
> In most circumstances, it is polite to address people as sir and maam. This is not martial arts, but simple courtesy. A sargeant telling a private in the military, "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is appropriate. The same sargeant saying that to a retail clerk is rude.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,
That is just "Gene"...  Quite a bit of comedy, and quite humble, too.  He will do almost anything for a laugh.  Did you know he has a pink gi??? 

One of the "living legends" of the martial arts, I think?

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## nails (Feb 5, 2011)

Its my understanding that in Judo you could theoretically progress past 10th Dan, except no one has lived long enough to receive it.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 6, 2011)

nails said:


> Its my understanding that in Judo you could theoretically progress past 10th Dan, except no one has lived long enough to receive it.



Technically, no. Only 10 dan levels have been defined.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 6, 2011)

Correct, and yet not. There is a 12th Dan which has only been awarded to Kano Sensei post-humously. Interestingly, I've found no indication of an 11th Dan ever being awarded (even to Kano before 12th).....


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 6, 2011)

Imo, they awarded that 12th dan so that noone would ever equal him in rank.
If he'd 'only' be 10th, then there would be people at the same level as him.
I guess that is why they made it a 12th instead of an 11th. That way they retained the option of someday instituting an 11th dan without having the same problem again.

Of course the kokodan can do whatever they want. They could award an 11th if they wanted to but at this time, that rank does not even exist.

This is not different from the 9th and 10th dan kendo. They still exist, but they are never aarded anymore.


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## jks9199 (Feb 6, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Imo, they awarded that 12th dan so that noone would ever equal him in rank.
> If he'd 'only' be 10th, then there would be people at the same level as him.
> I guess that is why they made it a 12th instead of an 11th. That way they retained the option of someday instituting an 11th dan without having the same problem again.
> 
> ...


Does 12 have a symbolic meaning in Japan?


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 6, 2011)

Good question. Not that I am aware of.
There are various 'special' numbers from 1 to 10, but iirc, 12 is not really special. I think it was just chosen to keep the option of an 11th open.

I'll ask my sensei tomorrow. He has a masters degree in Japanology.


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## Grasshopper22 (Apr 11, 2012)

My Ju-Jitsu sensei is a 10th Dan. In Ju-Jitsu, you only get your 10th Dan (after 9th Dan) if you've made a positive impact on the martial arts community, my sensei has a place in the martial arts hall of fame so he earned his then.


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## pgsmith (Apr 11, 2012)

> My Ju-Jitsu sensei is a 10th Dan. In Ju-Jitsu, you only get your 10th Dan (after 9th Dan) if you've made a positive impact on the martial arts community, my sensei has a place in the martial arts hall of fame so he earned his then.


  That all depends on the school. I know of several schools that are happy to grant someone a 10th dan as long as they'll either reciprocate, or pay for it. The same is true of many martial arts halls of fame. I was solicited for one a number of years ago when I'd done nothing of note to justify it. All I had to do was fill out the information for my biography, and return it with the $150 processing fee. Then, I could make my own travel arrangements, and pay my own way to their black tie banquet where my induction ceremony would take place. I told them no thank you. 

  A high rank and/or a position in one of the many halls of fame does not necessarily mean that someone is skilled and/or a good instructor. Research on the art in question, the association that has granted the high rank, and the instructor's teachers is the only way to determine credibility. On the other hand, if a person enjoys their training and are happy with it, then there's no real reason to worry about it.
​


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## Kinghercules (Apr 11, 2012)

nadia said:


> Grandmaster is a Title.
> sure, half the grandmasters today are complete frauds but speaking about their lies on public forumns is not going to change that.
> 
> rather demonstarte to people and those masters what a true Martial artist is about.
> ...




I disagree. 
We should call them out for what they are.
If they are fake then lets let them know that we know and everyone will know!!!


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## Kinghercules (Apr 11, 2012)

thetruth said:


> All of this ***** about being ranked by ones own organisation/students is deplorable and makes a mockery of the martial arts.  It then becomes an ego issue.
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:




IDk about that.....because when I think about it how did Mas Oyama get to 10th dan?
And Kenji Midori was a 5th dan when GM Oyama (his teacher) passed but he is now Shihan _Kenji Midori_ promoted by the World Karate Organization.
So who promoted him? It had to be his peers.  And I dont think one could say he doesnt deserve that rank considering his history in the art.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 12, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Nadia said:
> 
> 
> > so yeh, ignore rank, title's and other such labels, just judge people on thier technique and honour code.
> ...


You disagree that people should be judged based on their technique and behavior?


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## Kinghercules (Apr 12, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You disagree that people should be judged based on their technique and behavior?



Yup.
Ive met a few ppl that self train and learned from videos.  Yes they might look good, they might understand the technique, they maybe honorable and respectful.....but when it comes down to it they're a fake BB.  From my understanding, ppl that self trained back in the days (lets say 1800's early 1900's) would go out and prove themselves.  Not postin videos on Youtube about self defens! And yes Im thinkin about someone in particular. LOL!!!  There's this guy on Youtube (and Ive been lookin for the damn video to post it) that has a school and is a 6th dan in TKD ( probably a 7th or 8th by now) and he was younger then me.  When I asked him who trained him come to find out that he bought his **** online!  And I was lookin at his classes and what he was teachin and he was teachin crap to lil kids! 

So yeah if you fake Ima say you fake.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 12, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Yup.
> Ive met a few ppl that self train and learned from videos.  Yes they might look good, they might understand the technique, they maybe honorable and respectful.....but when it comes down to it they're a fake BB.


If you (the general you) know what you're looking at, you'd be able to pick out the video trained or those trained by someone who picked something up but didn't really practice the art it came from.  It always comes down to small details that cannot be picked up from video learning or from learning from someone who simply learned a lot of tricks for his repertoire but never practiced the arts from which those tricks came.

I was taught a couple of iai kata by a former instructor.  He never claimed to hold rank in iaido (he is a kendo guy), but he had picked it up and was sharing it with some of us for fun.  I learned ipponme and a friend videoed me performing it.  I posted it in the Japanese sword section because I was curious as to what feedback I would get from iaidoka.  I got quite a bit of good feedback.

I now train at a koryu kenjutsu/iaijutsu dojo and looking at the old video, I can find even more wrong with it.  Given that I had no formal iai training at the time, it looked pretty good.  But if I were passing myself off as an iai master, anyone who has six months of iai under their obi could have picked it apart.

Lack of formal training shows up in technique.  No way to avoid it.  Which is why I found it odd that you would not judge the veracity of an instructor based in part on his or her technique.



Kinghercules said:


> From my understanding, ppl that self trained back in the days (lets say 1800's early 1900's) would go out and prove themselves.  Not postin videos on Youtube about self defens!


And just what is your understanding of people 'self training' in the nineteenth and early twentieth century?  Do you have names for any of these self trained luminaries?  I ask because in the time period you mention, the technical content of most arts was not well known or readily learned without an instructor unless  you were talking about fisticuffs and wrestling, which have been part of western culture for centuries. 



Kinghercules said:


> And yes Im thinkin about someone in particular. LOL!!!  There's this guy on Youtube (and Ive been lookin for the damn video to post it) that has a school and is a 6th dan in TKD ( probably a 7th or 8th by now)


Ranked with whom?



Kinghercules said:


> and he was younger then me.


And how old are you?



Kinghercules said:


> When I asked him who trained him come to find out that he bought his **** online!


If he bought rank, that would indicate a person of dubious character, which would fall under the category of behavior or code of honor.  You are judging him based in part on this, which falls in line with Nadia's comment.

If he trained online (video training essentially), then that indicates a flawed foundation in his technique, which also falls in line with Nadia's comment.

Based on your response to my question, I'd gather that we think along similar lines, though I am not overly motivated to call out the fakes.  

The general public is willingly ignorant with regards to the martial arts.  Most will spend weeks and months researching a five hundred dollar television, but will do no research whatsoever prior to signing an MA contract that will cost them thousands.  With the volume of information available, there simply is no excuse for that.  If they cannot be bothered to gather basic information about the school, then I see no need to sound the alarm.  



Kinghercules said:


> And I was lookin at his classes and what he was teachin and he was teachin crap to lil kids!


Crap in what way?  Not saying you're wrong, but saying 'crap' could mean almost anything.  Also, did you visit his school?  Your header says that you live in DC.  If the school is in this area (I'm not to far outside of DC), would you mind posting a link?



Kinghercules said:


> So yeah if you fake Ima say you fake.


Take this for what it's worth, but you would greatly enhance the quality of your posts if you would treat this as an internet forum and not as instant messaging or text messaging.


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## chinto (Apr 15, 2012)

in Okinawan Karate, 10th dan equals Hanshi, ( head man)  and there is normally only one in a style. the belt is completely red, in most styles below that from 6th or 7th dan ( depending on style normally the red and white "candy cane obi " is worn. ( is red and white alternating bands, a red section then white then red again.


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## Gentle Fist (May 14, 2012)

You guys are all wrong!!!

The great Soke Calkins once taught us here on MT that

(1st Dan + 1st Dan)+ Membership to Eagle Fed = 10th Dan

:BSmeter:


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2012)

chinto said:


> in Okinawan Karate, 10th dan equals Hanshi, ( head man)  and there is normally only one in a style. the belt is completely red, in most styles below that from 6th or 7th dan ( depending on style normally the red and white "candy cane obi " is worn. ( is red and white alternating bands, a red section then white then red again.


Superman's belt is red.  No wonder he fights so well!  And here we all thought it was super powers.


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## Chris Parker (May 15, 2012)

(Psst... Daniel... Superman's trunks are red, his belt's yellow.... sorry...)


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 15, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> (Psst... Daniel... Superman's trunks are red, his belt's yellow.... sorry...)


Get with the program Chris.  Trunks are so 2010.  Superman ditched the trunks last year.


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## Chris Parker (May 15, 2012)

Ha, fair enough... So he's all grown up, huh? Looks younger though... I take it this is part of the whole reboot thing, yeah?


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 15, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, fair enough... So he's all grown up, huh? Looks younger though... I take it this is part of the whole reboot thing, yeah?


Yes.  They rebooted the entire DC Comics universe.  Hopefully, they can avoid the buildup of bad plot lines that crept in after the last reboot in 1985.


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## Black/Red Block (Sep 3, 2012)

I get supprised everytime I see a 40 to 50+ 10th Dan, I think how many years between the levels

I am the head of my school but I am still only Sandan (3rd Dan) I WILL serve the time that is expected as how would I expect a student to do what I'm not able to do myself.

I believe that the Titles that we see around the place especially with some schools that have been "self-awarded" IF they did the reasearch that you would expect from someone at that level, you would expect them to know that these titles can only be awarded by Japan's Budokai etc.

Under the National governing Body that I am with the timescales between each grade from Godan (5th Dan) to Judan (10th Dan) is 5 years whereas in most it increases with each level. Even then it still takes 43 years to gain Judan from day 1 whitebeltwith the bear minimum timescales.

Normally it would take the average person 58 years to get to Judan (10th Dan) again with the bear minimum timescales.

So as an average 50 years training the minimum age should be around 60 years old!!! NOT 40!!!


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## Chris Parker (Sep 3, 2012)

Sure.... but you also have to realize that that is your organisation, and there is no such thing as a standard application of dan ranks. If a different art/organisation decided that they wanted to award a dan grade every three weeks, that's up to them. They could have 50 dan grades, if they wanted to. All dan means is "level", how many "level's" there are is completely up to the art (and the heads of it) themselves. You might want to read pgsmiths post on the first page for more details on that.


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## Egon (Sep 3, 2012)

I didn't read all posts in thread..

Dan grade have meaning in organisation that issued it, not in other organisations (unfortunately, we have green belts with 10 years of experience and 8th dan worse than that green belt mentioned...really wide span looking worldwide). I think we cank now something about (or believe in) ranks issued by big and proved organizations of martial arts..let's say Bujinkan for Ninjutsu, any of mayor three ITF grupations, and so on..

I also believe that most of major martial arts groups require technical improvement up to 6. 7. dan grade, and after that your dans are awarded by what you do for you art and organisation..so that's how I see highest ranks. Probably 8,9, or 10 dan from some group isn't better then 5 or 6 dan from same group, but he have higher rank because he runs school(s), issue books, promote art..

This having said I discard any possibility that technical skill of highest ranks, 8+, is something special and that they are perfect and best. But, in any serious organisation that kind of rank can't be given' to somebody who isn't great martial artists for loooong period of years, who isn't a gentlemen and who isn't overall great person, most highest ranks I met were persons that can be your idol and you won't mistake.

About those self proclaimed highest ranks, I don't take them very seriously. Most of them that I met were good practicioners of some art, modified it a litlle, given it a new name and self promote himself to 10th dan. Damn, maybe 20 out of 100 people on this boards can do the same thing. Not sying they are bad, but most of them are simple regular folks trying to make extra money by calling himself 10th dan. I always preffered big grupations with traceable timeline, where you can approx. now what and who to except.


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## Black/Red Block (Sep 4, 2012)

Egon said:


> I didn't read all posts in thread..
> 
> .....................
> 
> ...



ACTUALLY, I've met a few 8th Dan and above Martial Artists who I would definately NOT consider as Idols or Role Models. Some have been the most egotistical, self-important "people" I know and I pray that I would never end up like them, if I did someone tell me and I'll quit martial arts forever. Respect is earned NOT expected

We've had the likes of Hanshi Cook, serving time for certain offences and I'e read about others too.

My opinion of a senior grade is just someone who has been training longer than I have, they're not a Demi God or someone to be worshipped. I hate those Senior grades who you can't directly speak to except through a Senior Dan grade who will ask the quest to the 10th Dan even though you're stood right infront of them too.

I could say I'm Soke X or Shihan X etc as I am the most senior instructor and no one is higher than me but I haven't. I could self award myself 8th Dan etc but I won't because I have respect for myself.

Unless they've been training for 50 years+ don't even tell me you're a 10th Dan (Ninja School is the exception as 10th Dan I think is the equivalent of 5th)

OSU


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## Egon (Sep 6, 2012)

I agree with you, respect is earned..and no title guarantee anything. My experience is very good and some masters I met really influented my life as they are great role models. Guess I move in a good circles


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## Meitetsu (Sep 17, 2012)

I found a book that talks about the Kendo 8th Dan test (passing rate 1%).  Some of the highlights:
[FONT=HGS&#34892;&#26360;&#20307;]&#20843;&#27573;​[FONT=HGS&#34892;&#26360;&#20307;] [/FONT]
[FONT=HGS&#34892;&#26360;&#20307;]8 dan[/FONT][FONT=HGS&#34892;&#26360;&#20307;] [/FONT]​[/FONT]
​
&#8220;With a passing rate of just one percent, what kind of training did the people who passed do?  We add up the&#36074; _shitsu_ or quality and&#12288;&#37327; _ry__&#333;_ or volume of their &#31293;&#21476;_keiko__._&#8221;​


Case studies of people who passed. 



 #1



Mr. Kamei&#20096;&#20117;  

Passed on the first test. 




&#8220;I was transferred out into the country and didn&#8217;t have regular access to training.  I worked on maintaining my leg strength before my test.  Even if I had to work late, I would stop at a park on my way home and do sets of sprints.&#8221;


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## Meitetsu (Dec 7, 2012)

arnisador said:


> It depends on the art! For some it's a unique rank for the grandmaster; for others, no. Ninjutsu and judo have super-ranks above 10th (with caveats--e.g., in judo you have to be dead first).


I heard this lady got 10th dan but upon investigating it was from the American Judo association not the Japanese one.
*Keiko Fukuda (&#31119;&#30000; &#25964;&#23376; Fukuda Keiko, born April 12, 1913) is the highest-ranked female judo practitioner in history, holding the rank of 9th dan from the Kodokan and the United States Judo Federation (USJF), and 10th dan from USA Judo, and is the last surviving student of Kan&#333; Jigor&#333;, founder of judo.  She is a renowned pioneer of women's judo, being the first woman promoted to 6th dan (c. 1972), and later 9th dan (2006), by the Kodokan. She is also the first and, so far, only woman promoted to 10th dan in the art.[SUP][8][/SUP] After completing her formal education in Japan, Fukuda visited the United States of America to teach in the 1950s and 1960s, and eventually settled there. She continues to teach her art in the San Francisco Bay Area.*


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## Mauthos (Dec 7, 2012)

Just found this thread and having skim read it I don't particularly have any issue, just found it interesting.

Sure, it should be hard work to get to 10th Dan in any art (if attainable) and generally the guys that do are in their 60's.  For example the heads of my Kenpo organisation in the UK and Ireland are, P. Kennedy - 10th Dan (64), J. Birch - 9th Dan (57), A. Fitzgerald - 8th Dan (63).

However, you only grade to 6th Dan in this association and with the minimum time requirements this should take 20 years (from 1st Dan) so essentially if you managed the minimum of approximately 4 years to 1st, it should take you a minimum of 24 years to get to 6th Dan.

Now this isn't always going to be the way, I achieved my 1st Dan relatively quickly (3.5 years), however, due to time out because of work and injury I only achieved my 2nd Dan this year, 6 years after my 1st.  It doesn't bother me, but it does mean that I still have 18 years to go to get to the dizzy heights of 6th Dan which will make me 53 and then it is a guess as when I will be deemed worthy to be awarded further rankings.

The reason why I am waffling is that after 6th Dan there is no prerequisite time to your next Dan grade, it is mainly awarded on your contributions to the art, what you have done, how you have promoted it etc.

We have a 6th Dan, J. o'Keefe (SP?) who recently was awarded his 7th Dan and I believe he is only 40.  Therefore, with the amount of classes he runs, schools that are affiliated to him and his junior instructors and the amount he does for the art etc (the guy is a work horse and a really nice guy).  It is feasible that he could be awarded the remaining grades each year and therefore become a 10th Dan at 43 (however, this is very unlikely as no matter what you do it is still a long hard/fought journey to earn the awarded ranks).

Anyway, my waffle is basically to say that I can see it possible in certain arts for people to attain 10th Dan at an unusually young age.

My 2 pence.


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## seasoned (Dec 7, 2012)

As was mentioned early on in the thread and I feel needs reinforcement, your personal name far precedes any rank you have on your waist. When people hear your name, that should equate to competence, not the other way around. 
There is a certain criteria that precedes high rank and without this, your high rank is hollow.


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## GrandmasterP (Dec 7, 2012)

9th Duan is the top ranking in China under the official system covering external and internal MA that's only been around since the late nineties though.
No belts as such that I'm aware of for TaiChi or QiGong. Top people in Chinese Health QiGong Association are 9th Duan.


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## Guy Preston (Dec 17, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> [/FONT]
> 
> It depends from one style to another, of course.
> 
> I doubt that they could walk through walls, but if someone were appointed a 15th Dan by Hatsumi sensei, for example, I would feel quite comfortable in saying that they must be pretty darn good.



Not necessarily, rank isn't important to Hatsumi, if you look across the Bujinkan organisation you find good and bad instructors, even in the high grade levels, i cant remember the source, but Hatsumi has spoken of this in interview and suggested it is by design (for every 500 good instructors you get 500 bad ones, or something along those lines, forgive me if I've butchered it!) take Richard Van Donk for example he is 15th Dan, his own bio says 11th Dan 2000, 12th Dan 2001, 13th Dan 2002, 14th Dan April 2004 and 15th Dan December 2004!!

Without commenting on RVD's skill level, that rate of promotion would suggest super hero ability, I don't think the YouTube clips show a Super hero in action...


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