# Putting Other Martial Artists Down



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 16, 2017)

We've all seen some 'questionable' MA skills in person, at seminars, on videos, and in books.  I think everyone understands that some people are not what they represent themselves to be.

I don't think that calling them out for ridicule is a good way to go, though.  In the cases where I might have done so myself, I'm sorry.  I was wrong if I did that.

Tearing down someone else doesn't say much good about me or my skills.  My gaze should be inward, my notice of flaws should be those I have, not those others have.

Most of us are simply doing our best here.  Some of us are better than others.  And yes, there are frauds and scam artists.  They will reap what they sow, and do not need my help to do so.

2 cents for today.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 16, 2017)

I agree Bill,  everyone is on their own personal journey. If one is further ahead than others there is no need to disparage those who are behind you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2017)

This is why in all online discussion, it's better to stay on the subject and not to let "YOU" and "I" to get involved. I may explain why I don't agree with you. But I should never say or ask,

- You don't know.
- How long have you study?
- Who is your teacher?
- What's your mother's maiden name?
- ...

I try to stay away from threads such as "What do you think of Jake Mace?" I can smell "personal attack" 100 miles away.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We've all seen some 'questionable' MA skills in person, at seminars, on videos, and in books.  I think everyone understands that some people are not what they represent themselves to be.
> 
> I don't think that calling them out for ridicule is a good way to go, though.  In the cases where I might have done so myself, I'm sorry.  I was wrong if I did that.
> 
> ...



Just what I'd expect from someone whose martial arts is huā quán xìu tǔi 

I agree with your post by the way


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## marques (Oct 16, 2017)

I avoid saying someone is ridiculous. But it is what I think when someone pretends or really believes s/he is the real deal, knowing "everything" and considering everyone ignorant, but doesn't have a clue about what is saying or doing.

No issue with not great instructors when they are honest. Like "I am still in training but can teach the basics and you cannot find this X anywhere close, anyway." Or "X is my speciality and X is what you can learn from me. If you are looking for Y, maybe it is not the right place for you."


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## Steve (Oct 16, 2017)

What is this a reaction to?   In general, I think this forum errs on the side of indulging posters with questionable skills.  Did something happen that bothers you?


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## Martial D (Oct 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We've all seen some 'questionable' MA skills in person, at seminars, on videos, and in books.  I think everyone understands that some people are not what they represent themselves to be.
> 
> I don't think that calling them out for ridicule is a good way to go, though.  In the cases where I might have done so myself, I'm sorry.  I was wrong if I did that.
> 
> ...


I don't think there are any scammy types among the regular voices here. Generally when the type of discussion you are referring to comes up it's in reference to someone in the public sphere.


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## Steve (Oct 16, 2017)

Nevermind.  I think I found the thread to which you are referring.  Wowzers.


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## TigerHeart (Oct 16, 2017)

It is normal in YouTube videos.  Several martial experts bashing each other.  I believe they are not frauds or scammers, but they amusing to watch.  I could name a few.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 17, 2017)

Agreed. 

We will never know everything. I like lowly people, because they are wise & always grow, while the self-righteous, or at least those who claim to know everything, remain in a stagnant position - they aren't willing to open themselves up to knowledge.

I like all Martial Arts. Karate inspired me as a little girl, even though it's not what I'm practicing today. Every art has something beautiful & informative to offer. 

Every individual has something to teach, whether it's related to MA or not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2017)

I think most of us, at at least one point in our training, weren't what we thought we were. For me, the most notable episode was probably around purple belt (that would be about 9 or 10 years in, I guess). So I try to have a kind thought for someone who thinks they are much more skilled, better prepared, or more knowledgeable than they are. Egos trigger me a bit, ignorance less so.

I also know that nearly every person's story can be made to sound like a great training journey, a far-fetched story, or a hoaky attempt at learning ninjerish. So I try not to get too wrapped up in how their story is told until I learn a bit more about them and what they know.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 17, 2017)

there is a difference between just dragging someone down because they are still learning and knocking someone who is a "know it all".    some people like to pretend (or even think they are) experts in every facet of martial arts.   i will put my neck out there for this statement but ....i tend to not post in the BJJ, ninjutsu or WC forums because they are for the most part outside of my circle of competence.  however there are people out there who have an opinion on everything about everything and are convinced that they know better than everyone else.   i see no problem in knocking them down a few pegs.  the issue then becomes one of intent and personalities.  sometimes cockiness is a sign of youth and/or inexperience, how do we judge cockiness from arrogance in an on line forum setting?  i am not sure.   i know there is a difference between being petty and tearing someones technique apart for the sake of feeling superior and having a debate on subjects.  i love debate,  but i try my best to not shred someone on their technique.  i have enough experience to know there are a million ways to do things, many of which i do not like but that doesnt mean a darn thing.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 17, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> there is a difference between just dragging someone down because they are still learning and knocking someone who is a "know it all".    some people like to pretend (or even think they are) experts in every facet of martial arts.   i will put my neck out there for this statement but ....i tend to not post in the BJJ, ninjutsu or WC forums because they are for the most part outside of my circle of competence.  however there are people out there who have an opinion on everything about everything and are convinced that they know better than everyone else.   i see no problem in knocking them down a few pegs.  the issue then becomes one of intent and personalities.  sometimes cockiness is a sign of youth and/or inexperience, how do we judge cockiness from arrogance in an on line forum setting?  i am not sure.   i know there is a difference between being petty and tearing someones technique apart for the sake of feeling superior and having a debate on subjects.  i love debate,  but i try my best to not shred someone on their technique.  i have enough experience to know there are a million ways to do things, many of which i do not like but that doesnt mean a darn thing.



_"Truly confident people are able to transcend the "cocky-confident" persona, & manage to reach a level of self-belief without all the trappings of arrogance & narcissism that seem inherent in a generation that are taught to constantly broadcast their photos, opinions, & good news to the entire world"._

I'm sorry that you find some Ninjutsu students to be like this. It's a pity... I guess some will like the idea of forming a community of unique people, & others will feel too superior to do that.

I, personally, have learned that confidence lies in being a raw & vulnerable human being. Pretentiousness & superiority is for the weak, in my opinion.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> _"Truly confident people are able to transcend the "cocky-confident" persona, & manage to reach a level of self-belief without all the trappings of arrogance & narcissism that seem inherent in a generation that are taught to constantly broadcast their photos, opinions, & good news to the entire world"._
> 
> I'm sorry that you find some Ninjutsu students to be like this. It's a pity... I guess some will like the idea of forming a community of unique people, & others will feel too superior to do that.
> 
> I, personally, have learned that confidence lies in being a raw & vulnerable human being. Pretentiousness & superiority is for the weak, in my opinion.



I'm sure he didn't say anything negative about Ninjutsu students. All he said about Ninjutsu was this 


hoshin1600 said:


> ....i tend to not post in the BJJ, ninjutsu or WC forums because they are for the most part outside of my circle of competence.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I'm sure he didn't say anything negative about Ninjutsu students. All he said about Ninjutsu was this



I misinterpreted his message . Whichever way, I like when people get along, I dislike contention. 

The message was based on good intentions. 

My bad.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> I misinterpreted his message . Whichever way, I like when people get along, I dislike contention.
> 
> The message was based on good intentions.
> 
> My bad.


No problems, it just confused me ( I'm getting to the age where I am easily confused lol) I have to say contention doesn't bother me, I couldn't have done my job if it had though at all times more peaceful solutions were always sought!


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> No problems, it just confused me ( I'm getting to the age where I am easily confused lol) I have to say contention doesn't bother me, I couldn't have done my job if it had though at all times more peaceful solutions were always sought!


In your case, I suspect that has little to do with age.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We've all seen some 'questionable' MA skills in person, at seminars, on videos, and in books.  I think everyone understands that some people are not what they represent themselves to be.
> 
> I don't think that calling them out for ridicule is a good way to go, though.  In the cases where I might have done so myself, I'm sorry.  I was wrong if I did that.
> 
> ...



If we are at our best, we should all act as you suggest; with understanding and compassion.  In life in general as well as here on MT.  I try, but fail more than I like to admit.

Honest disagreement without rancor can be beneficial.  Putting down others in a petty way usually does the same to us.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> No problems, it just confused me ( I'm getting to the age where I am easily confused lol) I have to say contention doesn't bother me, I couldn't have done my job if it had though at all times more peaceful solutions were always sought!



Circumstances from all the years have made me dislike contention so much, I guess. 

But, as they say;

_"If you suffer it is because of you; if you feel blissful it is because of you. Nobody else is responsible - only you & you alone. You are your hell & your heaven too"._

May I ask what your position was/is? By the sound &/or looks of it, it's a military position?  

If you have some pointers on how to deal with this particular circumstance, please do share. I could do with some knowledgeable advice. When people fight or are negative, I tend to ignore them & I just keep myself busy. 

However, if ever I had to be surrounded by random people who get into a fight, I wouldn't really know how to react to it. I would probably avoid it & walk away...


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> May I ask what your position was/is? By the sound &/or looks of it, it's a military position?



I was in the RAF for a few years then in the MoD in a uniformed but civilian capacity. The UK has the Home office police which everyone knows but also a couple of smaller forces.


How I deal with posters on here entirely depends on how they treat me. It depends on the situation, who is fighting and why they are fighting on how I'd approach it but on the whole you have to do what is best for you, walking away is a very good solution, nothing wrong with that at all. It often depends on gender how people approach things, if I had to walk up to a bunch of squaddies who'd been out drinking and I needed to see their Id cards, ask them where they'd been I'd take a humorous approach, probably said 'c'mon lads get them out', which of course they'd take the wrong way but they'd laugh and I'd say 'non, no your Id cards, I can't take too much excitement in one night'. They'd remain in their good mood and I could deal with them like that and get the info I wanted. I have seen however a male colleague walk up to a bunch of lads and demand in a very authoritarian voice to see there ID's, they lads got stroppy and we had to all wade in to stop him being assaulted. for many being in a position of 'power' means they have to always be aware of their dignity and pride, whereas I, because I'm not able or going to fight a bunch of lads ( or females which is much worse) don't believe it's beneath my dignity to chat to people or to deal with them with a sense of humour. You get back what you deal out.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 17, 2017)

Steve said:


> What is this a reaction to?   In general, I think this forum errs on the side of indulging posters with questionable skills.  Did something happen that bothers you?



I saw a thread calling out some video by some martial artist.  I went and looked at it, and my first reaction was negative regarding the person's skills.  Then I stopped and thought about my reaction and what it really said about me.  So I did not post on the thread.  I started this one instead.  I realize my own guilt in this area; mea culpa.  I thought I'd share that and make a public statement about my intent to try to do better.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We've all seen some 'questionable' MA skills in person, at seminars, on videos, and in books.  I think everyone understands that some people are not what they represent themselves to be.
> 
> I don't think that calling them out for ridicule is a good way to go, though.  In the cases where I might have done so myself, I'm sorry.  I was wrong if I did that.
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with pointing out where someone has flaws in martial arts.  That's what the teacher does to the student when teaching forms. The teacher constantly points out what you are doing wrong and then makes you do it over until you get it correct or "correct enough."

I don't have have trouble with calling people out.  In my eyes, it's not so much about doing it, as it is about how it's done. To me it's like reading a lie or reading incorrect information that no one ever corrects because everyone feels that there is a highroad in not saying anything.  I don't look at criminal and say that I shouldn't feel what I feel and that I should look at my own flaws instead of pointing out the criminal's flaws.  I'm not the one who made the error of doing the crime.

If I see someone who does a martial arts technique wrong, then I see no problem with pointing it out.  At the very least is shows in my ability to recognize when something isn't right. Will I get things wrong from time to time? Of course, but that shouldn't stop me from pointing out when I think or know something is wrong.

We are literally seeing this willingness not to correct or speak out in today's politics and we can see how that willingness to not speak up is turning out.  If it's wrong then say so.  If you think it's wrong then say so.  Either way it'll create a good discussion about how you are correct (or incorrect) and why. 

Sometimes the truth may seem like a put down but it isn't.  It's just that the truth sucks sometimes.  Sometimes someone seems like they are putting down another person, but it's really not a put down.  It's just how that person feels. It's their perspective.



Bill Mattocks said:


> I saw a thread calling out some video by some martial artist. I went and looked at it, and my first reaction was negative regarding the person's skills. Then I stopped and thought about my reaction and what it really said about me.


Your first reaction was negative about the person's skills.  Not sure why you think you should hide your negative reaction about someone's skills.  You can still talk about that person's skills without putting them down.  You can still point out their flaws without putting them down.

A flaw is a flaw regardless if it is ours or not.  The only time you should let another person's flaw cause you to reflect on your own, is when you have a similar flaw.  Ask yourself, do you look at the crimes of a rapists or murder and think.  hmmmm. I should think of my own flaws and not point out theirs.  Do you look at your politics in that same light?  When you see someone doing something wrong do you try to bring attention to it? Or do you stay silent, ignore what that person is doing and only think about your flaws?

The only time martial arts put downs are really put downs is when it gets personal.  Everything else is just a perception.  Some will see comments as putdowns and others won't.   If you put yourself out there on video then expect the feedback, both good and bad.  For example:  I put this out there knowing that some people would think that this is stupid and that it doesn't help.  I don't care because I know it helps, I've seen first hand how it helps.  I welcome any negative comment about it.  The only time it becomes a put down when it becomes about me and not the techniques.  Once I start getting.  "Dude you are stupid," "you are a F-ing idiot," "you don't know what you are doing,"  then it becomes personal.   Comments like this aren't about my techniques, it's about me.   It's not about what I'm doing, it's about me.  





Don't hide what you feel.  Especially if you still feel that way about what you see after self-reflecting.  If it's a personal attack then you can keep it to yourself.  If it's an observation then share it.  What you see may open the eyes of others or help them to see things in a different light or perspective.  Saying what see may also be a learning experience for you where someone can respond and give you a perspective that you may not have thought about.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I see someone who does a martial arts technique wrong, then I see no problem with pointing it out.



The problem there though is you may be criticising the way they do something yet that is how their style does it. Take something very simple like a rising (Jodan Uke) block, in Wado Ryu we do it one way, in Tang Soo do and TKD they do it another way. You can't call any of them out because that's how they teach it, it's the same with quite a lot of techniques. How you think it should be done doesn't mean they are wrong for doing it another way. There's plenty of discussion on how to do kicks for example, do you hit with the instep, ball of foot, top of foot, shin etc. A lot of arguments happen because a video or even a description of a technique is not understand properly and there's cries of 'that won't work', when it often will. I won't post up descriptions of techniques because I'm pants at it, I find it so hard to describe how to do something, I can teach and correct it easily but I can't write how to do it properly.


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## CB Jones (Oct 17, 2017)

I have a different outlook.

That MA is a professional YouTube personality.  He is making money from those videos and his fame.  He is not an individual just sharing videos of himself.  He is seeking fame and fortune through his social media platforms.

He has put himself into the arena of being a public figure which leads to both positive and negative comments about him during discussions.....just like any other celebrity whether they be an actor, athlete, fighter, politician, etc... that just comes with fame.

Fact is negativity also benefits him because it drives more hits and views to his social media platforms....which in turn generates more revenue.

No need in feeling guilty about doing exactly what he wants you to do.....give him more exposure.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The problem there though is you may be criticising the way they do something yet that is how their style does it.


This isn't a problem.  If I'm criticizing something that is the way they do something in that style, then I can be corrected.  Someone correcting me means that I learn and others learn because I stated what I saw and understood.  



Tez3 said:


> Take something very simple like a rising (Jodan Uke) block, in Wado Ryu we do it one way, in Tang Soo do and TKD they do it another way. You can't call any of them out because that's how they teach it, it's the same with quite a lot of techniques.


These type of discussions don't come about when a person sits and says nothing and assumes that "that's how their style does it."  Saying nothing doesn't promote discussion. What you say my be true. But it also may be true that it's how "they do it" is just flat out wrong for self-defense purposes or even on the most basic level, correct form, which is needed to prevent injury.  An incorrect horse stance is incorrect regardless of "how they do it."  Do a horse stance wrong and your knees will suffer.  Ironically.  A certain someone stated in a video to a student that their knees may hurt and that the student has to just work through the pain, and then the instructor talked about how has been nursing injuries for 20 years.  In kung fu if you knees hurt then 90% of the time you are doing something wrong which is damaging the knees.  Some things are just incorrect.



Tez3 said:


> A lot of arguments happen because a video or even a description of a technique is not understand properly and there's cries of 'that won't work', when it often will.


I'm personally familiar with this because this is what my life was like for the first 4 or 5 months on martial talk.  You know what happened.  I showed videos that it was possible, I explained my techniques better, I learned where people were misunderstanding me. Some people learned something knew others were just happy to see I was just talk. But something good came out of it.  It sparked a discussion and I shared things that I normally wouldn't have shared.  Then everyone complained about me posting my videos every time so I stopped doing it lol.



Tez3 said:


> I find it so hard to describe how to do something, I can teach and correct it easily but I can't write how to do it properly.


Nothing in my life is easy except for screwing up so. I might as well try something difficult.   We do what we can and we try to enlighten others through discussions.  If one person understands you then they may be able to show a video or explain what you are saying in a way that someone else will understand.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> These type of discussions don't come about when a person sits and says nothing and assumes that "that's how their style does it."



What though if I don't actually care how someone else does it? I have many years experience in my styles and quite a few years experience in MMA but I don't know as much as I might or as much as I want to so I'd rather stay focussed on my training and my knowledge. I won't take advice from people in videos I haven't trained with before (there's only one person I've trained with and will use only his videos) because I cannot learn from videos, I'm a person who has to 'do' and be corrected by an instructor in person. 



JowGaWolf said:


> But it also may be true that it's how "they do it" is just flat out wrong for self-defense purposes or even on the most basic level, correct form, which is needed to prevent injury.



How, though, do you know that the technique is wrong or won't work? If you watch a video the people in it may be doing it wrongly so the technique done properly will work perfectly well. This is especially true when it's not your style. Watching videos is so unsatisfactory to my mind, I don't watch them. How would I know that a CMA move is done correctly on a video? I could watch it and think 'wow that would never work' but then it turns out the demonstrator is doing a bad job and the technique works perfectly. It's  a mare's nest and you can't trust videos by people you don't know doing styles you don't do.


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## wab25 (Oct 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This isn't a problem. If I'm criticizing something that is the way they do something in that style, then I can be corrected. Someone correcting me means that I learn and others learn because I stated what I saw and understood.


When I see someone doing something wrong or a little different, I like to take the approach "Hey, we do that like this, I noticed you did it a different way and I was interested in why..." This usually leads to a good discussion of the differences, and neither side has to be defensive. Many people will be honest and respond with "well, I am supposed to do it better on this part, but I am still working on it..." In my experience, I have had better discussion and learned more, than when I pointed out "Hey dude, you are doing it wrong."

One thing I learned, once I start teaching, is that people learn differently. They start at different points, learn through different methods at different rates. I have had students who can watch and do. I have had some where it takes a long while to even approach the thing they saw. When teaching a new technique, most people can learn it 50% in a class. Then over the course of a few weeks practice, they get to 75%. They work on the that last 25% for the rest of their lives. There are many people out there, that will hardly get 1% in that first class. They will spend weeks and months trying to get to 10%. 

Most people can at least fake: get off the line, brush block, off balance and reap foot. I have had students where it will take weeks just to get the starting stance close, and weeks more to move the correct foot and hand first. Then we start working on where those parts go. It is really frustrating when you have a student like this, work very hard to get the first 10% of a technique down only to have some do gooder step up and show them first how bad their technique is, and then show them an entirely different version of that technique... which this student has no chance at getting. The added confusion means a longer road for the student to learn the first technique. 

Sure, we could have coordination tests for prospective students... but I am not sure I could pass one of those  The problem is that these issues are not only for the new guys who don't know their right from their left. Sometimes other arts, do things in different orders, or different emphasis. In my other training, I have worked hard to get things into muscle memory, so they happen without thought. When studying a new art, it has been very hard for me to do things counter to the patterns I have already learned, in order to do the new art. 

In both cases, what is needed is a lot of repetition. Each time, work on the next parts that will make the biggest change. Thats where a good instructor comes in. He knows the student, and hopefully, knows what next changes will be most beneficial to that student. Each student, may need to work on different things in a different order. 

In each of these situations, approaching that person with "Hey I am interested in why you do it that way..." allows for an open discussion. Knowing where people are coming from adds a lot to why they are doing it that way. I also think you can help them out better as well. There may be a principle or trick you know in your version (or even in another technique you know) that will help the other guy out a lot more, once you understand where he is. He will certainly listen to your advice a lot more than you if started with "Dude that is so wrong."


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> What though if I don't actually care how someone else does it? I have many years experience in my styles and quite a few years experience in MMA but I don't know as much as I might or as much as I want to so I'd rather stay focussed on my training and my knowledge. I won't take advice from people in videos I haven't trained with before (there's only one person I've trained with and will use only his videos) because I cannot learn from videos, I'm a person who has to 'do' and be corrected by an instructor in person.
> 
> How, though, do you know that the technique is wrong or won't work? If you watch a video the people in it may be doing it wrongly so the technique done properly will work perfectly well. This is especially true when it's not your style. Watching videos is so unsatisfactory to my mind, I don't watch them. How would I know that a CMA move is done correctly on a video? I could watch it and think 'wow that would never work' but then it turns out the demonstrator is doing a bad job and the technique works perfectly. It's  a mare's nest and you can't trust videos by people you don't know doing styles you don't do.


I don't fear being wrong. So I never ask myself "What if I'm wrong." If I'm wrong then I can either learn from it or not.  If you don't care if it's done incorrectly or correctly then people who criticize shouldn't bother you.  How much do you care about criticism of how sewage is treated in Waycross Georgia with one method vs another?  

How do you know that a CMA technique is done incorrectly? Because CMA Practicioner and knowledgeable people will come out and share their thoughts on what they are seeing.  Some of which, may be people who you have confidence in.  For example, there are people here who I have confidence in. When they share their insight and say it's incorrect then I have confidence that they are probably correct.  

Some people will watch horrible videos and think that those are the best videos.  You can either share your concerns or let them find out on their own.  

You can tell which people like to bash vs people who are willing to highlight things that don't sit well with them.  If they sound like Joe Rogan, then they are probably bashing and talking down on martial artist.  If someone is taking the time to talk about what they see and the concerns that they have then they probably aren't bashing.

I'm all for not hurting feelings but not at the expense of not pointing at something that I think is wrong.  I rather speak my mind and be corrected than not to speak up when I think I see something wrong.


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## Paul_D (Oct 17, 2017)

I was at a multi style seminar earlier this year and one of the instructors kept taking the mick out of the Ninjutsu Instructor, asking how come he could still see him, and 'he's going to show me how to become invisible later'.  It was all rather uncomfortable and embarrassing for everyone on the mat.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you don't care if it's done incorrectly or correctly then people who criticize shouldn't bother you.



That is a strange statement to make, I care whether things are done correctly or not in my styles, that's enough. I believe in quality not quantity. I am not going to be concerned whether all styles are done correctly or not because that would make me a dilettante. Not liking criticism doesn't come into it.

There's also the difference between 'correctly' and 'efficiently'. this is something I found out when I started MMA about 18 years ago. In karate we are taught to a technique correctly as you say, all of us whatever height, weight or flexibility issues we have so for some these techniques work better than they do for others. In MMA though one can take a techniques and perform it correctly however it may not work well for you but you can tweak it, until it does. What that means is you could see me doing a techniques in karate and approve of it's 'correctness' but it wouldn't actually work well for me then you could see me doing the same technique in MMA but tweaked to make it work for me and you would say it wasn't correct and therefore shouldn't work. 



JowGaWolf said:


> Some people will watch horrible videos and think that those are the best videos. You can either share your concerns or let them find out on their own.



I don't watch videos, I simply don't have the time to trawl through videos to see whether they are doing things correctly or not. I find it difficult to learn anything from videos, the only ones I do watch are Iain Abernethy's and that's to remind me of things I've learnt already or to expand on something I've already learnt in person. I don't understand either why I should be concerned about whether a CMA technique is done properly or not, it seems to me that I'd be poking my nose in something I'd didn't understand and would quite right be rebuked for it, rightly so.


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## Anarax (Oct 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We've all seen some 'questionable' MA skills in person, at seminars, on videos, and in books.  I think everyone understands that some people are not what they represent themselves to be.
> 
> I don't think that calling them out for ridicule is a good way to go, though.  In the cases where I might have done so myself, I'm sorry.  I was wrong if I did that.
> 
> ...



There are two important points to this I'd like to address

There is a fine line between criticizing someone's techniques and people "tearing down" one another. People claiming that they are something they aren't are frauds, that's just a fact. We should avoid calling them something more colorful than that, but fraud or liar isn't a derogatory term if they have been dishonest. We live in the cyber age where claims can be easier challenged and more research can be done. That doesn't mean everything online is valid, but a lot of useful information can be found if searched with some discretion. There was a time as martial artists we were uneducated and ignorant on what quality teaching and training was. As martial artist we share our knowledge and experiences with others, so we should be honest when asked our opinion of someone.

If someone is solely participating in their own delusions, believing their own lies or buying into their own "legend", that's their own problem. However; it's dangerous when they dupe others into believing their lies and deceive them into a false sense of security. As martial artists that should bother us and we should voice our opinion when we see it. That doesn't mean a student of style X criticizes a technique from style Y because student X doesn't understand the techniques. Bad techniques are bad techniques though. For example I have a background in weaponry, I can more critically analyze knife or sword techniques than I could Greco-Roman wrestling techniques. Thus I try to avoid talking out of my element and leave the Greco-Roman criticizing to those that have studied it or something very similar.

In conclusion, I think there is a proper way of calling out bad teachings when we see it.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2017)

wab25 said:


> When I see someone doing something wrong or a little different, I like to take the approach "Hey, we do that like this, I noticed you did it a different way and I was interested in why..." This usually leads to a good discussion of the differences, and neither side has to be defensive. Many people will be honest and respond with "well, I am supposed to do it better on this part, but I am still working on it..." In my experience, I have had better discussion and learned more, than when I pointed out "Hey dude, you are doing it wrong."


  I agree with this.  But there are some things that are wrong.  Driving a car backwards on the highway into oncoming traffic is wrong.  It doesn't matter what is considered wrong in the school.  It is wrong and it will cause injury.   If your horse stance is not correct then it will cause injury.  It doesn't matter what the school says is the correct way.  If the stance is incorrect it will cause injury to the knees.

One day I'm going to make some WC videos and some Karate videos showing you guys how to do these techniques and I don't want anyone to tell me that I'm doing a technique wrong because that's how I do the techniques. I say it's WC and Karate then that's what it is because that's how I do Wing Chun and Karate. 

When I teach my students and they do something wrong then I tell them right away "That's wrong" or "That's not correct" or "Don't do it that way."  If they feel bad about then good, then maybe they either won't do it again or recognize when they have made an error and self correct.



wab25 said:


> In each of these situations, approaching that person with "Hey I am interested in why you do it that way..." allows for an open discussion.


I can see if the technique has multiple applications that aren't incorrect.  But I'm pretty sure no one is interested in seeing why I close my eyes when spar, punch, and kick.  I'm pretty sure no one says.. "Hey show me how to close my eyes when I punch."  Some things just are. For me it seems like there is either a plain denial or appeasement to not accept that there are correct ways to do things and incorrect ways to do things. 



Tez3 said:


> That is a strange statement to make, I care whether things are done correctly or not in my styles, that's enough. I believe in quality not quantity. I am not going to be concerned whether all styles are done correctly or not because that would make me a dilettante


  I was using "You" in general and not personal.  I know you well enough to know you care if something is done correctly or not.  You have personally demonstrated this in past posts.  I was just responding to your "what if" statements.

This makes sense to me.  I know I can't criticize every style.  I can talk about a few common techniques, strategies and concepts and criticize that.  I'm with you on this one. 



Tez3 said:


> There's also the difference between 'correctly' and 'efficiently'. this is something I found out when I started MMA about 18 years ago. In karate we are taught to a technique correctly as you say, all of us whatever height, weight or flexibility issues we have so for some these techniques work better than they do for others. In MMA though one can take a techniques and perform it correctly however it may not work well for you but you can tweak it, until it does. What that means is you could see me doing a techniques in karate and approve of it's 'correctness' but it wouldn't actually work well for me then you could see me doing the same technique in MMA but tweaked to make it work for me and you would say it wasn't correct and therefore shouldn't work.


I understand this as well. The stuff that I'm talking about as being wrong doesn't fall into this category.  



Tez3 said:


> I don't watch videos, I simply don't have the time to trawl through videos to see whether they are doing things correctly or not.


I watch videos but not with the focus or purpose to see if someone is doing something correctly.  When it comes to martial arts I watch the video in hopes that I'll either learn something (not actually have the ability just the knowledge that it exists), see something interested and enriching, or see something that will help me better understand my own training.  For example, WC may something insight on how to deploy a technique that they have and I may be able to use that same insight to deploy a Jow Ga technique.  Now when I watch Jake Mace it's to get some insight on marketing martial arts because he's good at it.  But that's a business thing for me and not a martial art thing for me.  



Tez3 said:


> I don't understand either why I should be concerned about whether a CMA technique is done properly or not, it seems to me that I'd be poking my nose in something I'd didn't understand and would quite right be rebuked for it, rightly so.


 CMA is not so unique that you don't can't recognize some things that you do understand.  I wouldn't mind if you criticized me about what you think I'm doing wrong or incorrectly when I spar or demonstrate the application of a technique.  Because you may be right about what you are seeing.  For me as a person I'm either going to:

tell you why it's done that way,
say I understand what you are pointing out and that you are right
to tell you that you aren't seeing an error and I'll follow up with an explanation or video showing me actually applying a technique
or thank you for letting me know that I was making an error with the technique.
If I'm completely wrong then I will apologize which many of you have already seen me do.  Being wrong doesn't mean that I'm stupid or incapable.  It just means that I'm wrong.  I don't see it as something that destroys character or image if a person is willing to learn from it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Driving a car backwards on the highway into oncoming traffic is wrong



It's not 'wrong' it's illegal. 



JowGaWolf said:


> CMA is not so unique that you don't can't recognize some things that you do understand. I wouldn't mind if you criticized me about what you think I'm doing wrong or incorrectly when I spar or demonstrate the application of a technique.



What I don't understand though is why I, an instructor in a different style, would want to criticise you. I don't feel the need to criticise you, I would only do that if you came into my class to learn from me and then it would be correction not criticism. For me it would be many things to criticise strangers when they train, impolite, presumptuous and none of my business. If you are wrong then it's up to someone who does your style to tell you so not me.

If you want to do Wado Ryu or MMA then I'm happy to advise to the best of my ability but I'm not going to offer advice to anyone outside those parameters.




JowGaWolf said:


> I say it's WC and Karate then that's what it is because that's how I do Wing Chun and Karate.



When you say 'karate' what style because that's just a generic name, there's a fair few different styles.


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## wab25 (Oct 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can see if the technique has multiple applications that aren't incorrect. But I'm pretty sure no one is interested in seeing why I close my eyes when spar, punch, and kick. I'm pretty sure no one says.. "Hey show me how to close my eyes when I punch." Some things just are. For me it seems like there is either a plain denial or appeasement to not accept that there are correct ways to do things and incorrect ways to do things.


When I was working my way through the ranks, at my home dojo... we had a guy for a couple years, who always closed his eyes when doing his techniques. One approach would be "Hey guy, you are doing it wrong, you need to open your eyes." When visiting people made such comments about him or to him, he would give them the finger, right then and there. When people took the approach of "Hey, I am interested in why you close your eyes..." or "Do you realize you close your eyes when you do that?" he would politely inform them that he was blind. Eyes open or not, he can't see anything... he finds that with his eyes closed, he gets fewer fingers in his eyes.

I met another martial artist at a convention. Very good martial artist, taught me a surprising amount for the little time we had together. But, his stances were all wrong, he was always leaning over too much. One could tell him that he is doing it wrong, because he isn't bending his knee enough. Or you could get to know him, and find out he had no knee on that leg. (his leg got blown up by a landmine, and at the time the best they could do for him, was give him a permanently straight leg)

Even if people are just plain doing it wrong, with out any excuse... they still don't like being called out on it by someone they don't know. You may have the best advice and be one hundred percent correct, but if you already offended them, they are not going to take your advice. 

If you show interest in them and learn the why behind the different. First they will take your advice better. Second, it gives you a chance to offer better advice.

Now, you mentioned how you correct your students. Thats different. They are your students, you know them and they know what they signed up for. When seeing other folks though, honey gets you more mileage, and you may learn a few things and in some cases, keep your feet out of your mouth.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 17, 2017)

I consider that despite what might appear to my eyes to be poor techniques, I'm not qualified to say.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 17, 2017)

Me and my best friend went out one night to play a game of pool (in the US) I  think it's "snooker" in the UK.  I approach the game just like MA. Correct stance, balance,  arm position ect.  As I watched my friend I was thinking his form is terrible, ,it's so wrong.  He proceeded to beat me every game and not by a small amount.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Me and my best friend went out one night to play a game of pool (in the US) I  think it's "snooker" in the UK.  I approach the game just like MA. Correct stance, balance,  arm position ect.  As I watched my friend I was thinking his form is terrible, ,it's so wrong.  He proceeded to beat me every game and not by a small amount.


So what was the worst thing that happened.
1. you lost the game
2. you were wrong about the assumption about the stance in related to pool (snooker)
3. you learned that the stance, balance, arm position ect. didn't play as big as a role as you thought it would

Now you have some insight that you didn't have before and you have narrowed the elements of what makes a good pool player.  Maybe your next theory will be centered around the angle in which the pool stick hits the ball and the effects chalk has.   Maybe you'll learn how to see the angles or measure the angles with the pool stick.  

Did you tell your friend that his stance was wrong?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Me and my best friend went out one night to play a game of pool (in the US) I  think it's "snooker" in the UK.  I approach the game just like MA. Correct stance, balance,  arm position ect.  As I watched my friend I was thinking his form is terrible, ,it's so wrong.  He proceeded to beat me every game and not by a small amount.


This is me when I play pool. My friends will laugh at me because I hold the cue stick incorrectly. Both in how I hold it, and how I look at the table when I'm shooting. I also apparently shoot lefty, even though I'm righty. Whenever I play with someone new, I always here comments about how "you're not holding it correctly", "you must be new to pool, here let me show you how to play", and other dismissive remarks. Until I end up winning.

While pool is incredibly different than martial arts, I think the argument of "if it works, it works" still applies, even if no one understands how it works, and you're breaking every rule for how it's supposed to work. Once they get consistently better than me, then I'll start changing.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> What I don't understand though is why I, an instructor in a different style, would want to criticise you.


Because your criticism may 

stop me from doing something that is harming my training
you may have a better insight on how to deploy an application such as a sweep.
you may have a better understanding of concepts such a baiting and counter punching
you may have a better understanding of a technique that is similar to what I'm trying to learn that helps me fill in the gaps that I may be missing.
you may have a better understanding of tactics and strategies related to fighting
you may have a better understanding of how most people attack.
you may have knowledge that is useful to me that helps me to improve
you may see gaps or things that I may not be taking into consideration when training an application
Just because you do not train in my system doesn't mean that your insight and perception of self-defense does not apply to the system that I train.  Every martial arts system has similarities and the system you train may have pieces to the puzzle in my system where my instruction wasn't as complete.  In some cases depending on closely related the 2 systems are, you may actually be able to help me understand a Jow Ga technique simply because it's similar to technique that you are successful in using.


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## CB Jones (Oct 17, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Me and my best friend went out one night to play a game of pool (in the US) I  think it's "snooker" in the UK.  I approach the game just like MA. Correct stance, balance,  arm position ect.  As I watched my friend I was thinking his form is terrible, ,it's so wrong.  He proceeded to beat me every game and not by a small amount.



Even though you might not be a master at pool.....had your buddy claimed to have been a master at pool then proceeded to stand on the table and try to use the pool cues like golf clubs to drive the balls into the pockets of other pool tables...would you:

1)  Accept that he is a proclaimed master of pool and join him 

2)  Realize he is not a master of pool but bite your tongue since you are not an expert yourself

3)  Call him on his B.S. and tell him to get down.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> While pool is incredibly different than martial arts, I think the argument of "if it works, it works" still applies, even if no one understands how it works, and you're breaking every rule for how it's supposed to work.


my understanding of pool is that it's all about the angles.  As long as those are correct then the other stuff doesn't matter unless it affect one's ability to get the angle correct


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> my understanding of pool is that it's all about the angles.  As long as those are correct then the other stuff doesn't matter unless it affect one's ability to get the angle correct


There's actually a pretty good comparison to martial arts (at least striking arts). What matters is you're able to strike the person with a lot of power while trying to prevent them from doing the same. As long as you can accomplish that, everything else doesn't matter unless it affects one's ability to achieve that goal.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Because your criticism may
> 
> stop me from doing something that is harming my training
> you may have a better insight on how to deploy an application such as a sweep.
> ...




I cannot however tell any of that from a video, as I've said before videos do not work for me, I'm not a visual learner, I can tell very little from a video. I prefer not to cast my net as wide as you, I do what works for me and I don't want a thousand techniques at my disposal. My methods are going to be different from yours by dint of size, weight and gender anyway. Searching so many systems to find answers seems more work than is necessary, I don't know any system that doesn't have answers. This is why I do Bunkai, the answers are in there you don't have to search for the holy grail of techniques. I want to be the cat that runs straight up the tree when the hounds are coming not the fox sitting there pondering which technique to use while they get closer.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 18, 2017)

I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to help someone or analysing their movements/skills, but I think that sometimes the TONE people use in helping others is what defines it as either being helpful, or then coming across as crass &/or rude. 

The underlying tone through which you communicate is very important in your daily dealings with people. You can help someone, & remain humble, or you can resort to criticising them & then coming across as a douche-kanoo. 

In our class, students will ask me to point out to them whenever I feel like they are doing something wrong, so that they can then improve on whatever it is that they are struggling with. I analyse their movements via the instructions of our teacher though, not based on my own knowledge (I don't have enough knowedge or skills to do that, lol), i.e. Let's say they stand in Ichimonji, & their heels aren't lined up, or perhaps their 45 degree angles are a bit off; I will then just point that out to them & the next time they do it, or after that, they will actually do it right, after which I will praise them for doing so. It's all about your attitude towards people. 

And if you carefully observe people's behaviour; they will not have a problem with you trying to help them if you come from a place of understanding & lowliness. If you tell them "Don't worry, I struggled with "xyz" technique as well when I was at your level, it takes time"; or "I'm also still struggling with "xyz" technique"; they can then RELATE to you as a human being & not feel bad or insecure for finding something difficult.

However, if you're coming from a place of superiority, someone who has little patience, someone who is critical, & someone who humiliates the mistakes or lack of skills of others, then people will definitely shy away from your "help".

It's all about vulnerability. If you cannot be vulnerable with people, they will always see you as a superior being & not be able to ask for your help, hence they will feel inferior to you. On the other hand, if you are honest & raw with them (bring your guard down & swallow your pride), they can relate to you & that then establishes a foundation for connection. 

Perhaps I'm coming from a place of too much estrogen to some on this thread? . I don't know, but it really does help, I've found at least. There could be millions of other options or scenarios to apply to a situation like this that I'm not aware of. So if someone disagrees, or has something to add, please do.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think it's "snooker" in the UK.



We have snooker and pool here, most likely it will be pool because snooker is played on a big table that most places can't fit in.



Tarrycat said:


> Perhaps I'm coming from a place of too much estrogen to some on this thread?



A word to the wise, you opinions are yours, be proud of them, don't apologise or suggest they are too 'feminine', gender doesn't matter here. Opinions don't come from your hormones but your experience and expertise.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 18, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I was in the RAF for a few years then in the MoD in a uniformed but civilian capacity. The UK has the Home office police which everyone knows but also a couple of smaller forces.
> 
> 
> How I deal with posters on here entirely depends on how they treat me. It depends on the situation, who is fighting and why they are fighting on how I'd approach it but on the whole you have to do what is best for you, walking away is a very good solution, nothing wrong with that at all. It often depends on gender how people approach things, if I had to walk up to a bunch of squaddies who'd been out drinking and I needed to see their Id cards, ask them where they'd been I'd take a humorous approach, probably said 'c'mon lads get them out', which of course they'd take the wrong way but they'd laugh and I'd say 'non, no your Id cards, I can't take too much excitement in one night'. They'd remain in their good mood and I could deal with them like that and get the info I wanted. I have seen however a male colleague walk up to a bunch of lads and demand in a very authoritarian voice to see there ID's, they lads got stroppy and we had to all wade in to stop him being assaulted. for many being in a position of 'power' means they have to always be aware of their dignity and pride, whereas I, because I'm not able or going to fight a bunch of lads ( or females which is much worse) don't believe it's beneath my dignity to chat to people or to deal with them with a sense of humour. You get back what you deal out.



That is very true. If you approach people with a poor attitude, they will immediately put their guards up & respond in an aggressive tone as well.


It's very interesting to me how you've dealt with people like that. You treated them like your equal & that's why they reacted positively. Human behaviour has always been an interesting topic for me to study & to talk about. 



Perhaps it's sometimes just best to humour negative individuals or adversity as a whole. My father once told me that the best way to retaliate to adversity is by being resilient - to use adversity as a tool of motivation & as a source of strength to keep growing as an individual.


You gave me a lot to think about. Isn't it sort of reverse psychology that you used? Or what would you classify it as? Lol. I know a lot of people who participated at the border war, or worked in the police force (like my dad) that use reverse psychology quite often. It actually works quite well for them.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 18, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> We have snooker and pool here, most likely it will be pool because snooker is played on a big table that most places can't fit in.
> 
> 
> 
> A word to the wise, you opinions are yours, be proud of them, don't apologise or suggest they are too 'feminine', gender doesn't matter here. Opinions don't come from your hormones but your experience and expertise.



True that... . Thank you for the input, I will take it into consideration* 

I'm proud of my opinions in person, but on social media I don't want it to come across too harsh. It's very easy to misinterpret words without tone (or some tone at least) to them. 

I don't text much (text messaging I avoid like the plague). I only use it for logistic purposes, so I'm still working on it. On this forum I have found a lot of value, so I don't mind the texting. I have a hard time expressing myself through words, because I'm a very passionate person (understatement).


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 18, 2017)

I think something is being overlooked here.

People are referring to correcting students, such as students in their own schools.  That's something entirely different than what I referring to.  Obviously there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism of students one is supposed to be helping.  And if one is holding one's own students up to ridicule instead of making corrections; well that's a different issue, but just as bad.

I am speaking of people reacting negatively to other martial artists - not their own students - and judging them or holding them up to ridicule.  As I've said, I've done it, it was wrong, and I will try not to do it again.

Doing so makes several assumptions.

The first is that one is qualified to judge others.  If I look honestly at myself, I realize I am not.  Not even if the person in question is supposedly a member of the same basic style of martial arts I train in.

The second is that I am seeing what I think I am seeing.  Unless I was physically present, and actually involved in the session in question with the martial artist in question, I cannot be certain that I'm not seeing something that was not actually the case.

I point the finger of blame at myself primarily.  Let others gather from this what they may.


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## CB Jones (Oct 18, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think something is being overlooked here.
> 
> People are referring to correcting students, such as students in their own schools.  That's something entirely different than what I referring to.  Obviously there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism of students one is supposed to be helping.  And if one is holding one's own students up to ridicule instead of making corrections; well that's a different issue, but just as bad.
> 
> ...



Still....the martial artist in question is a YouTube celebrity getting paid for these videos.

It is a business.

He is a public figure and celebrity.

He is marketing himself to consumers....and consumers should be allowed to voice their opinions on the product he is selling.

Nothing wrong with stating your opinion as long as you realize it's just your opinion and stay civil with the discussion.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The first is that one is qualified to judge others. If I look honestly at myself, I realize I am not. Not even if the person in question is supposedly a member of the same basic style of martial arts I train in.
> 
> The second is that I am seeing what I think I am seeing. Unless I was physically present, and actually involved in the session in question with the martial artist in question, I cannot be certain that I'm not seeing something that was not actually the case.



This is how I feel, I know I don't pick up from videos enough information to judge anything so I rarely look at the videos posted on here. I also don't think I'm qualified to judge other people's techniques on video, in person it's different but even then I would just dive in if it were someone else's class.



CB Jones said:


> He is marketing himself to consumers....and consumers should be allowed to voice their opinions on the product he is selling.



They should but then if they are judging him they also will be judged by others who read their comments so they might want to bear that in mind.  If in doubt say nought is often a good thing to think about.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 18, 2017)

I try not to put down others as people or as martial artists. However I will, under certain circumstances, critique specific execution of martial arts.

Obviously, if someone posts video of themselves and asks for feedback, that is fair game. I do try to be diplomatic and encouraging while still offering constructive criticism if I have any.

When someone posts video of someone else and asks whether that would be a good person to learn from or a good technique to practice, then I think there is value in offering an evaluation of what is being shown. That doesn't mean trashing the subject of the query, just providing some perspective on what is being shown.

After 36 years in the martial arts I think I am qualified to offer critique on a lot of what is out there and I also have a pretty good idea of where I am not qualified to offer an opinion. I'm also aware of the fact that I am sometimes wrong, so I try not to overstate my case and I try to keep my commentary specific rather than offering sweeping judgments.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 18, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think something is being overlooked here.
> 
> People are referring to correcting students, such as students in their own schools.  That's something entirely different than what I referring to.  Obviously there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism of students one is supposed to be helping.  And if one is holding one's own students up to ridicule instead of making corrections; well that's a different issue, but just as bad.
> 
> ...




I understand your point 100%. What I said was a bit off topic, originally.



It's more a topic of casting judgment when nobody is perfect. It relates to what I said in some way. I stated that one should rather come from a place of understanding than looking down upon others. I just used all that as an example.



If someone is doing something (it doesn't have to be someone you know in person), & you question their techniques, you should come from a place of lowliness. Like you said, you cannot judge someone if you aren't in a position to do so - that's being humble. 



So then I guess all you can do is ask that person why they are doing it that way, & leave it at that. Perhaps you could ask someone who is, in fact, highly experienced to help you understand what the other person is doing right or wrong & take it from there.



I'm not certain whether or not to help someone like that or to give them some constructive criticism (based on a very experienced person's point of view), because every individual would react differently.



I would lean on pursuing to help them (not based on my own knowledge, of course), because I would want that person to improve & to not be a victim of any form of humiliation. There is nothing more humiliating than not doing something the right way (especially when you've been doing it wrong for years). I would rather have someone tell me I'm doing something wrong (in a nice way of course), than make a fool of myself.



Again, not everyone reasons like I do.



I've had some experiences in the gym when I wasn't using the equipment accurately & someone would correct me - I appreciated it.



If I am in the same boat, I will tell them that I'm struggling with some of the techniques too, but that with practice it will get better (not coming from a place of authority &/or superiority).



If the individual is very opinionated, set in their own ways, & is always looking for a way to justify that their methods are the only true methods (even when it's not right), then that becomes their problem. Sooner or later they will realise that there is much more to life than just their ways & means of doing things.



I don't have much else to add I guess. It's a subjective topic, so everyone will approach something like this in a different way. To me, there is a difference between helping someone & judging them. Your intentions will be pure & supportive VS. just being cruel.


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## TigerHeart (Oct 18, 2017)

The martial art school that I attend is all about respect.  Even a Hanshi respects me and he has 9th degree black belt.  When I first saw him, I thought he was very stuck-up.  The good thing is I was wrong about him.  He turns out to be a nice guy.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 18, 2017)

@Bill Mattocks

Just came across this on Sensei Ando site.

This is the last part of an article I just posted and I thought this bit was very applicable here

The rest of this is from Sensei Ando and his site
_
"One more thing…

If you already practice martial arts, then you know there’s a lot of trash talk out there between different martial arts styles… which is ridiculous! It’s ridiculous because we’re all on the same team.

The big difference isn’t between the people who practice this style and the people who practice that style, the big difference is between the people who practice martial arts and the people who don’t!

I got news for you—to the people who don’t study martial arts, we’re all a bunch of weirdos! That’s why we should stick together.

If you practice martial arts, then I’ll bet your life has gotten better. I’ll bet you also want your friends and family to share in that same experience, right?

So, instead of trashing each other’s arts, let’s start promoting them—all of them! Because I’d rather see my friends and family training in a style that I don’t practice than not training at all."_


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> @Bill Mattocks
> 
> Just came across this on Sensei Ando site.
> 
> ...


This reminded me of something a professor told me in a religious studies class years back. Essentially, the more that two religions have in common(/common origin), the more you will see argument between them. Because whatever the difference is, someone at some point felt passionately enough about it to create an entirely new denomination/sect/religion/etc., and that passion got passed down. It's why you will see more arguments between people of the same overall religion (his example was Sunni and Shi'ite, IIRC, since it was a class on islam) then you will between people from different religions (Shintoism and Christianity for example). Taking the Sunni and Shi'ite example, the "to the people not practicing martial arts, we're all a bunch of weirdos" line holds true there. A lot of people don't care about the difference between sunni, Shi'ite, or whatever sect you might belong to, they'll just see your muslim and base their opinions on that. But that outside view, and knowledge of that view, doesn't tend to stop the internal conflict that occurs.

I can see that line of thinking work very well for martial arts. The people who complain about aikido (IMO) tends to be judo/jujutsu guys, the WC guys are always having arguments amongst themselves on this forum that no one else seems to care about, and I've seen a ton of arguments happen between different CMA artists near me, claiming the other CMA "isn't real", or some other nonsense.

On a more general level, the logic could work for martial arts as a whole. If the issue is that people get more emotional/angry/argumentative over differences they are passionate about, and most martial artists tend to be passionate about their art, then seeing an art you believe to be wrong, or your own art being portrayed in a view that you consider wrong, then you are much more likely to get argue about it, trying to prove that your art is better, or that art is worse, etc.


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## punisher73 (Oct 25, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think something is being overlooked here.
> 
> People are referring to correcting students, such as students in their own schools.  That's something entirely different than what I referring to.  Obviously there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism of students one is supposed to be helping.  And if one is holding one's own students up to ridicule instead of making corrections; well that's a different issue, but just as bad.
> 
> ...



Also, there are many videos that don't really say "what" the video is supposed to be.  I have seen some good martial artists that have put up a video that was trying to show something to a group of beginners and needless to say, the video was not very flattering to what I know their skill was.  Some martial artists are just not good "performers" to make what they do "pretty" even though it works.

I always think back to what my roommate in college said, "everyone sucks to somebody else".  We will always find someone who disagrees with someone as to their skill even if other people find the person in question very skilled.  Not every approach in martial arts is everyone's cup of tea.  I know my instructor has taught in a way that it is accessible to everyone, he leaves it up to the individual to how deep they go with their study and allows them to "pick their path" so to speak.  When he and I work together, I often get pulled aside and taught things that aren't taught to many others because of my focus and job.  So, I have a very different view of what I do than people who also study the same system.  Also, because of his approach, I have seen a lot of less than flattering videos of other students who just have fun doing what they are doing and even though I cringe when I put on my filters when I view it, and have to remember that the reason that they do it, is not even close to the reason that I do it.

People teach and share for different reasons in the martial arts, and those filters will color how we view what is being presented.  Our own experiences and studies will also add more color to how we view it.  I know I have seen discussion on here that someone has said that a certain technique doesn't work, or a certain situation won't happen, when I know from my own personal experience that it wasn't the case.


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## Buka (Oct 26, 2017)

Reading this thread for the first time, just wanted to add my two cents about pool. While understanding angles are a must [just like in striking] playing pool on a decent to world class level is really about two things. It is about stroke and it is about position. 

I guess that's like striking, too.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 26, 2017)

back when i was studying pool under Steve Mizerak,  he said: 
_"you cant control the balls, all you can do is control yourself"_
sounds a lot like Zen philosophy and martial arts to me.

(ok ok i lied........ i was studying his book    i never really met the guy, but he did really say that in his book, at least i think it was in his book, but then again it could have been my aunts second cousin removed, who new a guy who played a game of pool once.)


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## CB Jones (Oct 26, 2017)

Buka said:


> Reading this thread for the first time, just wanted to add my two cents about pool. While understanding angles are a must [just like in striking] playing pool on a decent to world class level is really about two things. It is about stroke and it is about position.
> 
> I guess that's like striking, too.



You also need a cool nickname like Fast Eddie, No Penny Benny, Memphis Flash, Gypsy George, etc...


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## jobo (Oct 26, 2017)

Buka said:


> Reading this thread for the first time, just wanted to add my two cents about pool. While understanding angles are a must [just like in striking] playing pool on a decent to world class level is really about two things. It is about stroke and it is about position.
> 
> I guess that's like striking, too.


having played 8 ball pool at international level( over 50s ) its mostly about temperament and tatics, every one is pretty dam good, its the ability to perform under pressure that makes the difference add in the tactical ability to tie a better player up and you can be extremely effective despite a skill deficit. Which is again i suppose is quite close to ma?


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## JR 137 (Oct 26, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> You also need a cool nickname like Fast Eddie, No Penny Benny, Memphis Flash, Gypsy George, etc...


You do, but as George Costanza’s “T-Bone” example taught us, you can’t give yourself a nickname.  And you can’t force it.


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## drop bear (Oct 26, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> You do, but as George Costanza’s “T-Bone” example taught us, you can’t give yourself a nickname.  And you can’t force it.



Anyone with the nickname bear or bull came up with that themselves.


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## jobo (Oct 26, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> You also need a cool nickname like Fast Eddie, No Penny Benny, Memphis Flash, Gypsy George, etc...


i was slow jo, the frames lasted as long as it took for my oppoint to get bored stiff, do some thing reckless and let me win, usually about 45 mins a frame, some times they just got bored and went home, playing me best of 5 was a day out


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## JR 137 (Oct 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Anyone with the nickname bear or bull came up with that themselves.


What about “The Russian Bear” Aleksandr Karelin?




I don’t think he gave himself that, or any other nickname.  And if he actually did, there’s not a thing anyone can do about it.  

Side note:  I love the tweet Joe Rogan had about that pic.  He said (paraphrased) “Any time I think I’m tough, I look at this pic and realize how much of a pu$$y I really am.”  I can’t stand Rogan, but that’s a classic line.  Easily one of the best and most real quotes ever.


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## Steve (Oct 27, 2017)

Nut shot, earmuff, mule.   A few of my favorite nicknames.  Not mine, fwiw.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2017)

I picked up two nicknames in high school: Lucky Charms and Captain Caveman. Luckily, only the latter stuck for very long (my best friend from HS and college still calls me "Cave").


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 27, 2017)

My nickname in the Corps was maddog. Still is. I've never called myself that.


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## CB Jones (Oct 27, 2017)

High school and college I was called Jonesey.  In the Academy, I was called Goose, and when I started working UC they called me Jax.


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## Buka (Oct 27, 2017)

Knew a guy called Scrap Iron, one called Favorsham, one called The Load and another called Wheatian Kazowie Bang Bang. None of them picked their nicknames, but all of them stuck. And they could all fight like the Dickens.

I had a lot of nicknames, but Jackface was the most common amongst my friends.


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## Paul_D (Oct 29, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> you can’t give yourself a nickname.  And you can’t force it.


Paul Ince did.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 30, 2017)

Buka said:


> Knew a guy called Scrap Iron, one called Favorsham, one called The Load and another called Wheatian Kazowie Bang Bang. None of them picked their nicknames, but all of them stuck. And they could all fight like the Dickens.
> 
> I had a lot of nicknames, but Jackface was the most common amongst my friends.



You travel in an interesting crowd.  By any chance do all of you keep old Dick Tracy comics around?


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## Buka (Oct 30, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> You travel in an interesting crowd.  By any chance do all of you keep old Dick Tracy comics around?



Lol. We've been friends a long time. Used to have snowball fights together, then started dating girls, running from the cops [not having done anything, just ran so, hopefully, they'd chase us] went to colleges, stopped just going to dojos and started living in the damn things - but that was just a thirty year phase, buying houses, became cops, travelled . Been an interesting ride, at least so far.

No comics, no, we were more of the Mad Magazine crowd. But we used to send Christmas cards like this.





"The Load" actually went on to become the Police Commissioner. We still give him crap about that.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 31, 2017)

Buka said:


> Lol. We've been friends a long time. Used to have snowball fights together, then started dating girls, running from the cops [*not having done anything, just ran so, hopefully, they'd chase us*] went to colleges, stopped just going to dojos and started living in the damn things - but that was just a thirty year phase, buying houses, became cops, travelled . Been an interesting ride, at least so far.
> 
> No comics, no, we were more of the Mad Magazine crowd. But we used to send Christmas cards like this.
> 
> ...



So what happened to Jackface?  I don't see him.  

Always good when we can look back and say we had an interesting ride, with more fun than regrets. 

I remember when if a cop saw somebody running, it was likely just assumed he had done something wrong, so they would run him down, then look for what he had done.  Ah the "good ol days."  Not assuming guilt because of running was one of the first things I learned.  Felt stupid when I was called out for it, but it made sense too, so I quit.  But as you no doubt recall, there weren't nearly as many joggers on the streets then, so running was assumed to be a reason for assumptions of wrong doing. 

Thankfully we've come a long way since then.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> So what happened to Jackface?  I don't see him.
> 
> Always good when we can look back and say we had an interesting ride, with more fun than regrets.
> 
> ...


Not always, about two years ago a friend and I were having a walk probably around 10PM in an upper middle class neighborhood (the town next to our college). We decided about whatever time to turn back and head back to the college. Apparently, unknown to either of us, we did this about half a block before a cop car was parked. Simply the act of turning away from the car and walking in the opposite direction was enough for him to follow us and start questioning us. Or it was the fact that this was a mostly white neighborhood, I'm Hispanic and my friend is Indian. Either way, they assumed guilt, so just started questioning us to see if we had done anything wrong.

Different time me and some other friends were actually running from some cops. We HAD done something, I think we had egged one of our friends cars for not hanging out with us (and later helped him clean it). About five minutes later, a cop car came into the parking lot we were hanging out in, so we just ran. He was too lazy to chase.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 31, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Not always, about two years ago a friend and I were having a walk probably around 10PM in an upper middle class neighborhood (the town next to our college). We decided about whatever time to turn back and head back to the college. Apparently, unknown to either of us, we did this about half a block before a cop car was parked. Simply the act of turning away from the car and walking in the opposite direction was enough for him to follow us and start questioning us. Or it was the fact that this was a mostly white neighborhood, I'm Hispanic and my friend is Indian. Either way, they assumed guilt, so just started questioning us to see if we had done anything wrong.
> 
> Different time me and some other friends were actually running from some cops. We HAD done something, I think we had egged one of our friends cars for not hanging out with us (and later helped him clean it). About five minutes later, a cop car came into the parking lot we were hanging out in, *so we just ran. He was too lazy to chase*.



Or hadn't heard of any crime you were likely to be running from. 

Do you think all cops are too lazy to do their job, or just that one?  Is it their job to chase after everyone who runs?

You don't like their actions in your first paragraph, nor the lack of action in the second.  Do you just dislike cops?  It is your right not to, for whatever reason of course.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Or hadn't heard of any crime you were likely to be running from.
> 
> Do you think all cops are too lazy to do their job, or just that one?  Is it their job to chase after everyone who runs?
> 
> You don't like their actions in your first paragraph, nor the lack of action in the second.  Do you just dislike cops?  It is your right not to, for whatever reason of course.


I actually find this response funny; it's probably the first time someone has accused me of disliking cops. About half my family are LEO so I'm normally the ones defending them to my friends.

In neither situation did I mean to complain or suggest that the cops did anything wrong.

In the first situation; if I was a police officer in a suburban white area, and I saw two people of different races walking towards me at night then suddenly turn away when I got in view, I would probably also be suspicious of it. I don't blame them, just pointing out that they were assuming guilt based on suspicions. To clarify, they didn't detain either of us, didn't do an unwarranted (or any) search of us, didn't abuse us in any way, just acted on their suspicions.

In the second situation; I guess lazy was the wrong word. I'm not suggesting they were too lazy to do their job, since no where in the job description AFAIK does it say that you have to chase anyone that you see running. Just pointing out that there was a reason for them to assume guilt if they wanted to, but they chose not to run us down. 

It really was not a complaint, just pointing out two separate instances, one where they acted on suspicions, and one where they did not (in different towns) to show that, based on my experiences, if there is a rule on assuming guilt, it doesn't seem to be a hard rule.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I actually find this response funny; it's probably the first time someone has accused me of disliking cops. About half my family are LEO so I'm normally the ones defending them to my friends.
> 
> In neither situation did I mean to complain or suggest that the cops did anything wrong.
> 
> ...


As a side note, while I am not an LEO of any sort, I would imagine that if I were, and I pulled into a parking lot to see 5 teenagers start running, and I hadn't heard of any nearby crimes, I would be too lazy to chase them. No reason wasting my breath on 5 people running in different directions, when I don't even know they did anything to waste my breath for.


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## CB Jones (Oct 31, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> So what happened to Jackface?  I don't see him.
> 
> Always good when we can look back and say we had an interesting ride, with more fun than regrets.
> 
> ...



What?

Running from police is still considered reasonable suspicion to conduct a stop and frisk and determine why suspect is running.

Nothing wrong with proactive policing.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 31, 2017)

Lots of people who have never worked in law enforcement do not know what it is, how it works, or what the rules are.  The media is just as bad.

In general, a police officer on duty has the right to stop anyone and ask them who they are and what they are about.  There is no probable cause required to believe a crime has been committed, it can be 'mere suspicion'.  Mere suspicion has been defined by the courts as basically what we call a 'gut feeling'.

The cops cannot arrest anyone for that, of course.  But they can detain, (and in most jurisdictions) perform a brief 'pat-down' for weapons only (for the officer's safety) and can ask basic questions.  If they feel the answers are not sufficient, but they do not have probable cause for an arrest, they can fill out a field interview card, which can be useful if a crime is later determined to have been committed in that general time and place or by people matching the general description of those in the FI cards.

Here are the typical standards used by cops and recognized by the courts in the USA:

Mere suspicion - gut feeling.   Nothing definable.

Reasonable suspicion - more than a gut feeling.  The cop can articulate what makes them think a crime has been committed and the person(s) they have stopped may be responsible.  Less than probable cause.

Between Reasonable suspicion and Probable cause is what is known as a 'Terry stop'.  It is a brief detention, and it may include the person being stopped being put in handcuffs - again, for the officer's safety.  If probable cause is not developed as a result of the stop, the handcuffs are removed and the person is free to go.  They are not under arrest, they are not charged with a crime.

Probable cause - the cop can define what happened, who did it, and a reasonable and prudent person would agree that the person(s) stopped are responsible.  This is often known as "PC" and it is necessary for things like pulling someone over in a traffic stop.  For example, the cop witnessed a car with a burned out taillight, and pulled over the car.  They have probable cause to believe that the driver is violating the law - because they saw with their own eyes that the light is burned out.

So yeah, when you walk towards a cop car, see it, then turn and walk away, that's 'mere suspicion' to many cops and reason enough to stop and ask questions.  It does not have to have anything to do with racial profiling.  The cop is simply using his or her basic intelligence and experience that says that a couple people who turn back upon sighting a police vehicle may have a reason for doing so.  If the stop does not provide PC for arrest, then a brief interview is generally the end of it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

Again, I have no complaint about being stopped. I included race because I don't know which one caused them to assume guilt, but either way it does not matter. I was just describing two different situations, both where there would be a reason, but nothing definitive, to be suspicious, but in one situation something was done and the other situation nothing was. I have no issue with how either situation played out, but those situations show, to me, that there is no hard and fast rule regarding suspicion/assumed guilt that has to be followed.


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2017)

Years ago we were babysitting a secure facility that was under renovation. A temporary fence had been put up, a six foot chain link job, and we were parked behind a sliding gate used for construction vehicles. There was a huge sign that read "DO NOT BLOCK DRIVEWAY". It was a humid, drizzly, late summer night, one of those nights in Boston that just fogs your windows no matter what you do.

My partner and I were in a brand spanking new SUV with all the bells and whistles, a real monster of a rig. A car pulls up and blocks the driveway. Four college age girls. They don't even notice our vehicle. A big bong comes out and they start smoking. Their windows immediately fog up. My partner and I look at each other and giggle. He gets out and quietly slides the gate open. We start our vehicle and slowly creep up to the side of their car. They have no idea we're there. We get to within six inches of their doors and stop. Then, both of us using two hands, turn on everything - blue lights, spotlights, fog lights, sirens, klaxon horns. You might say we startled them. You could hear the screams as the bong goes flying off their inside roof.

We kill the lights and sounds and my partner gets on the mike. "Ladies, please move your car. Go home." They did. Still makes me giggle.


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