# An 8 year old black belt walks into your school.....



## IcemanSK (Oct 4, 2006)

True story. I had an 8 year old & his mom walk in last night for the 1st night of class. He is a black belt from another school in town. (Mom said that after 3 years, it got too expensive,there). I asked about a KKW certificate & mom said that it was "coming in December." My cynicism tells me that if a student leaves a school before getting his cert. his instructor won't send it in. The child has the respectful attitude of a child who has spent 3 years in a dojang, but I got blank stare when I mentioned forms (Tae Guek, Pal Gue or Koryo). 

I've got a call into my instructor to discuss how to handle this, but I'm curious. Have any of you instructors/school owners come across this? What did you do? If you haven't yet, how would you handle it?


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## searcher (Oct 4, 2006)

None that young, but I would work it the same as if they were an adult.   They can have their rank "recognized" but after 1 year of observation.   They have the option to start over, if they wish.   I will not let just anybody walk in and wear their rank, unless they are invited by me for a particular reason.   Not every BB has had their rank recognized after 1 year, but most "true" BB's do.    They still don't have rank with me, but they still have that option.


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## TraditionalTKD (Oct 4, 2006)

Unless they have verifiable rank through a recognized Federation (Kukkiwon, ITF etc.), they get to start over as a white belt. They probably have too many bad habits for me to really recognize them as a black belt student anyway. And having a certificate from some third rate organization doesn't cut it either. It'll be good for their ego anyway.
The other exception, aside from recognized Federation, would be an Instructor my Instructor knows and can vouch for.


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> True story. I had an 8 year old & his mom walk in last night for the 1st night of class. He is a black belt from another school in town. (Mom said that after 3 years, it got too expensive,there). I asked about a KKW certificate & mom said that it was "coming in December." My cynicism tells me that if a student leaves a school before getting his cert. his instructor won't send it in. The child has the respectful attitude of a child who has spent 3 years in a dojang, but I got blank stare when I mentioned forms (Tae Guek, Pal Gue or Koryo).
> 
> I've got a call into my instructor to discuss how to handle this, but I'm curious. Have any of you instructors/school owners come across this? What did you do? If you haven't yet, how would you handle it?



Iceman---this is a genuine `adult' belt, a dan? It's not a---what do they call it?---a `poom' grade? I know that there's supposed to be a distinction, and a lot of schools won't give a dan below a certain age (16 or whatever), but do give a poom, and when the child reaches the minimum age, s/he gets to test for a full dan BB. That's not what's going on with this young student, I take it... [?]


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2006)

Personally, I'd just have the kid put on a white belt.  Just tell him that things are different here, what he will be learning is different, and while he may have a black belt in his other school, in your school he is a white belt.


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## rmclain (Oct 4, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> The child has the respectful attitude of a child who has spent 3 years in a dojang, but I got blank stare when I mentioned forms (Tae Guek, Pal Gue or Koryo). quote]
> 
> I wouldn't worry about this too much unless the child wants to keep his rank. (I'm still amazed at instructors awarding a black belt at such a young age).  I've met many adult "black belts" from other schools (karate or Taekwondo), that resulted in the same result when asking about their forms.
> 
> ...


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## Kacey (Oct 4, 2006)

I agree with the statements made by others.  The one thing I would check is if the boy knows a different form set - say, the Ch'ang H'on patterns.  If he does know them up to black belt, then I would let him keep his rank, but make it clear that he has to learn everything color belts in your school learn to become black belts, and he won't be testing until he does - could be several years.

If he knows no patterns at all, then I agree with FC - tell him the requirements are different, that he has to start over because so many things are different, and possibly consider multiple gup gradings if he shows knowledge of the techniques that comprise the patterns while not knowing the patterns themselves; if that's the case, then learning the actual patterns shouldn't take long.  Otherwise, he'll have to start over.  I've done the same thing with adults - I had one student who was a 1st gup in the WTF who joined my class as a white belt and worked his way back up; he tested for BB last year.

If the child (or the parent) objects, then suggest a list of other places he can train.  The fact that mom moved him because it was getting too expensive is suggestive of other potential problems.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 4, 2006)

Kacey said:


> If the child (or the parent) objects, then suggest a list of other places he can train. The fact that mom moved him because it was getting too expensive is suggestive of other potential problems.


 

I would agree with you (about other problems) under other circumstances. The school he left is a comericial school with a lot of "extras" for students of higher rank. Mine is a non-profit school out of a community center. I don't think these folks have a lot of money. However, given the circumstances in which they came to me, I have my eyes wide open for things to not be as they appear. In regards to the possiblity of him knowing the Chang Hon Forms, I didn't broach that subject cuz he said he was WTF & wore a WTF dobok.


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## MJS (Oct 4, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> True story. I had an 8 year old & his mom walk in last night for the 1st night of class. He is a black belt from another school in town. (Mom said that after 3 years, it got too expensive,there). I asked about a KKW certificate & mom said that it was "coming in December." My cynicism tells me that if a student leaves a school before getting his cert. his instructor won't send it in. The child has the respectful attitude of a child who has spent 3 years in a dojang, but I got blank stare when I mentioned forms (Tae Guek, Pal Gue or Koryo).
> 
> I've got a call into my instructor to discuss how to handle this, but I'm curious. Have any of you instructors/school owners come across this? What did you do? If you haven't yet, how would you handle it?


 
Are the TKD forms pretty universal or do they vary from org. to org.?  I ask this because if they do vary, that could be the reason for the blank stare.  Is it normal for the certificate to come later or is it something that is given at the time of the BB test?

I guess you could do it either way.  You could have him start at white belt and move on from there, or you could have him still wear the BB, but tell him that he has to go back and learn things from the beginning, the way that you do them at your school.

Mike


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## Kacey (Oct 4, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> I would agree with you (about other problems) under other circumstances. The school he left is a comericial school with a lot of "extras" for students of higher rank. Mine is a non-profit school out of a community center. I don't think these folks have a lot of money. However, given the circumstances in which they came to me, I have my eyes wide open for things to not be as they appear. In regards to the possiblity of him knowing the Chang Hon Forms, I didn't broach that subject cuz he said he was WTF & wore a WTF dobok.



The reason I say this is because a fair number of WTF dojangs use the Ch'an H'on forms, either as an additional set or as the only set; so do a fair number of places that teach what they call "karate" - because when they started no one knew what TKD was, so they called it karate, instead.  I knew a student like that; he was in a karate class (it said so on the patch) but when I asked him to show me a form, it turned out to be Won-Hyo; his instructor had taken the Ch'ang H'on patterns he liked, modified some of them a little, and dropped the ones he didn't like - and then called the whole thing karate.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 4, 2006)

MJS said:


> Are the TKD forms pretty universal or do they vary from org. to org.? I ask this because if they do vary, that could be the reason for the blank stare. Is it normal for the certificate to come later or is it something that is given at the time of the BB test?
> 
> I guess you could do it either way. You could have him start at white belt and move on from there, or you could have him still wear the BB, but tell him that he has to go back and learn things from the beginning, the way that you do them at your school.
> 
> Mike


 
For the most part (there are exceptions, of course) a school under the WTF banner, would do either the Tae Guek or Pal Gue forms. As far as the certicate from the Kukkiwon (WTF's parent) they come after the test, generally. I have a feeling that the mom paid the money for the test, the child was tested, & then mom was told, "Black belt classes are more than under belt classes." (And it was more than she could afford).


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## IcemanSK (Oct 4, 2006)

Kacey said:


> The reason I say this is because a fair number of WTF dojangs use the Ch'an H'on forms, either as an additional set or as the only set; so do a fair number of places that teach what they call "karate" - because when they started no one knew what TKD was, so they called it karate, instead. I knew a student like that; he was in a karate class (it said so on the patch) but when I asked him to show me a form, it turned out to be Won-Hyo; his instructor had taken the Ch'ang H'on patterns he liked, modified some of them a little, and dropped the ones he didn't like - and then called the whole thing karate.


 
I hear what you're saying, Kacey. But it was at the point at which I said "forms" that he looked puzzled. This kid's patches were plentiful & all WTF. I will test him on what he knows (even as far as kicks) to see what he knows. He actually said to me, "It's been 3 months, I'm not sure I remember how to tie my belt." His "unlearning phase should more difficult than most kids white belt stages.


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## Drac (Oct 4, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I'd just have the kid put on a white belt. Just tell him that things are different here, what he will be learning is different, and while he may have a black belt in his other school, in your school he is a white belt.


 
I'm with you Crane...


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> I hear what you're saying, Kacey. But it was at the point at which I said "forms" that he looked puzzled. This kid's patches were plentiful & all WTF. I will test him on what he knows (even as far as kicks) to see what he knows. He actually said to me, "It's been 3 months, I'm not sure I remember how to tie my belt." His "unlearning phase should more difficult than most kids white belt stages.



It's very strange. It's possible that the word `form' wasn't used at his old school---maybe the instructors there just called them poomsae or hyung?---but he should have at least recognized Taegeuk or Palgwe...

Do you know anything about this other school in terms of their requirements? What kind of reputation do they have? There's something that strikes me as kind of dodgey in awarding a child that young a BB in the first place; that's why I was wondering earlier if it was supposed to be a poom rather than a dan rank. Does the KKW have poom-level certificates? 

It might be better to try to get more information about just what went on there before making a decision. My first thought, like Flying Crane and Drac, was to just start him over at white. But if it turns out it was a poom or junior BB or whatever they call it, it might just a well to say, sure, you can keep the belt, but you have to go through the training from the white belt requirements on up.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2006)

Maybe if you start him at white, but be willing to advance him faster if he learns faster due to his experience.  Just let him prove that to you first, before doing it.  This way you give him credit for any legitimate training he might have had, but you aren't just taking his and his mom's word for it.

If he has forgotten how to tie his belt after 3 months away from training, then I suggest he might not have really learned much at all in 3 years at the other school.  He is probably a legitimate white belt anyway.  

I kind of have a problem with giving a kid that age a Black Belt, anyway.  I just have a lot of skepticism over that kind of thing, I think it's unrealistic and inappropriate.


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## matt.m (Oct 4, 2006)

My grandmaster has a kid come in on thursday's.  She is a red belt from another school.  This would equal our blue belt.  Because she is a little kid she cant do the forms after being out for a year.  However, she wears a white belt and stands in front of the green belts in line.  The green belts, myself and another adult friend are ok with it.  

The little kid works hard and has a great attitude, otherwise we would make her stand at the end.


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## searcher (Oct 4, 2006)

We definately don't want to drop our standards as many have already.   Just observe the kid for a period of time to get your own assessment of his level.   Even if he is truly a BB in another school, he may not be up to your standard.   Award rank according to where you think he fits.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 4, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe if you start him at white, but be willing to advance him faster if he learns faster due to his experience. Just let him prove that to you first, before doing it. This way you give him credit for any legitimate training he might have had, but you aren't just taking his and his mom's word for it.
> 
> If he has forgotten how to tie his belt after 3 months away from training, then I suggest he might not have really learned much at all in 3 years at the other school. He is probably a legitimate white belt anyway.
> 
> I kind of have a problem with giving a kid that age a Black Belt, anyway. I just have a lot of skepticism over that kind of thing, I think it's unrealistic and inappropriate.


 
I hear what you & Exile are saying, & I don't disagree with your thoughts. As exile said, I need to get more information. I know very little about his former instructor or what he taught this kid. I would assume the rank would have been poom, rather than Dan rank. If the mom can't find out anything about the boy's certificate, I'll talk to his instructor. Her English isn't great & the instructor is Korean. I need to know than I do now. If I can't find out from them, I'll find out from the instructor.


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> I kind of have a problem with giving a kid that age a Black Belt, anyway.  I just have a lot of skepticism over that kind of thing, I think it's unrealistic and inappropriate.



It _is_ unrealistic and inappropriate. And I really wonder, does the KKW actually recognize BB awards to children that young? There was a longish thread in the TKD some time ago about this very point---it got pretty heated---and I have this memory trace of someone saying they had looked up the KKW rules and something about a minimum age for full BB certification. The thread had a lot of backing-and-forthing about the wisdom of the poom/jr. BB rank, whether this was a McDojang invention to help increase revenue, and so on... but it might be worth checking out whether this other place actually _can_ award that young a child a full BB... it just doesn't make any sense.


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## Drac (Oct 4, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> I kind of have a problem with giving a kid that age a Black Belt, anyway. I just have a lot of skepticism over that kind of thing, I think it's unrealistic and inappropriate.


 
Again I must agree with Crane, an 8 yr old Black Belt....


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2006)

Bamm! back to white!:mst:


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## BrandiJo (Oct 4, 2006)

the first school i trained at, if you transferd in you went back to white but you got a nifty lil tape on your white belt that was whatever color your last belt was, and with each progressive belt untill you reached that color again.so your kid would have a white belt, but a nifty (tacky) black tape on it. still strokes there ego, but you get to retrain them ​


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

BrandiJo said:


> the first school i trained at, if you transferd in you went back to white but you got a nifty lil tape on your white belt that was whatever color your last belt was, and with each progressive belt untill you reached that color again.so your kid would have a white belt, but a nifty (tacky) black tape on it. still strokes there ego, but you get to retrain them ​



Hi Iceman---if it does turn out that there's something fishy about this BB situation with this boy (and it's really hard for me to imagine a legitimate BB for an eight year old, even a poom belt), BrandiJo's solution---which would salve feelings while still keeping the standards of your dojang intact---might be a good route all 'round. 

We're all interested in what you find out and what you decide---please keep us posted on how this plays out.


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## bydand (Oct 4, 2006)

BrandiJo said:


> the first school i trained at, if you transferd in you went back to white but you got a nifty lil tape on your white belt that was whatever color your last belt was, and with each progressive belt untill you reached that color again.so your kid would have a white belt, but a nifty (tacky) black tape on it. still strokes there ego, but you get to retrain them ​



That is a neat idea, shows that they are beginning in your art, but has rank in something else.  Interesting thought...


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## Makalakumu (Oct 4, 2006)

I require any new student who comes in my door to put on a white belt (except for students in my teacher's lineage).  

The curriculum that I teach is designed to bring people to standards that I set.  And the ranks that my students earn are educational tools.  Besides, recognizing rank in other arts just brings up a whole heck of alot of problems...with one of them being ego.

Its best not to go there.


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## terryl965 (Oct 4, 2006)

Iceman and everybody else if he is a KKW student then his rank would be a 1st poom under the age of 15 which he is, but here lies the problem to be KKW you have to be in there guidelines which mean Tae Gueks or Pal gwe poomsae, with that being said if he does not know this set then he is not KKW and competed as such, which means house BB so you have the honor to accept or make him start over, which the latter is better since you are with GM Sell now Iceman. If he is a 1st poom then his certificate does not take but 4-6 weeks to get so I really doubt if he is a KKW student.

Now before everybody jumps on a band wagon about if the Kukkiwon gives out Pooms rank yes they do and they are legitament rank under there guidelines and are not consider a Dan until 15 and they send ib to have it changed from poom to Dan rank.
Master Stoker


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## Kacey (Oct 4, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> I hear what you're saying, Kacey. But it was at the point at which I said "forms" that he looked puzzled. This kid's patches were plentiful & all WTF. I will test him on what he knows (even as far as kicks) to see what he knows. He actually said to me, "It's been 3 months, I'm not sure I remember how to tie my belt." His "unlearning phase should more difficult than most kids white belt stages.



I imagine it will be quite difficult.  I've had both kids and adults come in at various ranks; the adults with red belts who knew the Ch'ang H'on patterns uniformly chose to start lower than their previously earned rank (between white and green belt, depending on when they started and how long they'd been out); the kids started at their previous ranks because they happened to come from classes with syllabi that matched mine, and were only different in technical details - which did, generally, increase the time before the first testing, as they changed the details.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 4, 2006)

While I do not teach kids at all.  I do have alot of different people from other systems come in and they start where everybody else starts but probably will advance at an accelerated rate.  Rank really does not transfer well from style to style or school to school.  Sure if the child is KKW certifide and could perform your forms flawlessly to your level and had their certificates then you probably would want to acknowledge their rank.  If that is not the case then you should start them over but at an accelerated rate based on the individuals skills.  If they are really interested in learning then they will not have a problem with this.  Good luck.


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

terryl965 said:


> Iceman and everybody else if he is a KKW student then his rank would be a 1st poom under the age of 15 which he is,



hi Terry, yes, that's what I was dimly remembering from that old TKD thread---you posted a bit in that one, right?




terryl965 said:


> but here lies the problem to be KKW you have to be in there guidelines which mean Tae Gueks or Pal gwe poomsae, with that being said if he does not know this set then he is not KKW and competed as such, which means house BB so you have the honor to accept or make him start over, which the latter is better since you are with GM Sell now Iceman.



I would have to agree w/Master Stoker here: if it wasn't a KKW certified poom, and has no status at all outside his prior dojang, and there's no reason on earth why you should be expected to conform to their (rather suspect) standards. 



terryl965 said:


> If he is a 1st poom then his certificate does not take but 4-6 weeks to get so I really doubt if he is a KKW student.



It sure does look a bit thick, that `black belt'. If it's not a real KKW certification, then all bets are off. And it sure doesn't sound as though they made him work through a Palgwe or Taegeuk curriculum to get it. 



terryl965 said:


> Now before everybody jumps on a band wagon about if the Kukkiwon gives out Pooms rank yes they do and they are legitament rank under there guidelines and are not consider a Dan until 15 and they send ib to have it changed from poom to Dan rank.
> Master Stoker



Terry, I'm pretty sure that no one who's posted on this thread so far is going to take the line that just because KKW has poom as a legitimate rank, a house-awarded `black belt' corresponding to poom has to be taken as legitimate in any other dojang. The question I have---'cause I think you're probably dead right, and there _is_ no KKW certification coming---is, who made up the story that Iceman got from the boy's mother---his previous dojang, or his parents? It sounds almost certain that one or the other fabricated the whole business...


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## terryl965 (Oct 4, 2006)

exile said:


> hi Terry, yes, that's what I was dimly remembering from that old TKD thread---you posted a bit in that one, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Exile I would imagine the school over the parent the parent have nothing to gain from the story but the school sure does. At any rate exile you are right on the money with all your commits.
Terry


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

terryl965 said:


> Exile I would imagine the school over the parent the parent have nothing to gain from the story but the school sure does. At any rate exile you are right on the money with all your commits.
> Terry



Thank you, sir---and yes, it does seem more likely, as you say, that the school was pulling a fast one on this woman and her child. The one good side of it all is that the boy wound up in Iceman's dojang and will now have the chance to learn real Taekwondo. 

But you have to figure, if they were feeding this family the line about the status of his training, they must be doing the same thing up and down the line---and a lot of kids are going to be coming out of there with BBs that mean very little. Probably more than a few adults, too.


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## Kwan Jang (Oct 4, 2006)

I think that your idea of talking to his former instructor to really understand what is going on is your best bet. Regardless of your decision towards his rank, the more informed you are, the better you can serve a student.

 For what it's worth, when a new (or potential) student comes into my school, and is concerned about their rank in a previous school/system; I tell them that I did not issue them their rank, so it is not my place to take it away. However, this is not their previous school and at our school they will need to learn our cirriculum and meet our standards for any rank. I believe there is no point in "reinventing the wheel" and that if their skill and ability is up to the level of our students of that age and level, then they will be promoted to that level. 

One advantage we have is that ours is a MMA system (though our trad. base is TKD) and while they may have comparable skills to our red belts in TKD (for example), do they have the same level of skill as our red belts in BJJ, Muay Thai, and the FMA's? You could use the same point regarding his lack of knowledge of required forms or any other part of your cirriculum that his previous school may have neglected (like waitng until he was older/more mature before awarding him even a poom. I actually am in favor of the poom, but only in exceptional cases and NEVER that young, but that is just my own view). This would at least allow you to bring him up to par without compromising your standards and those of your school, but still give you a chance to give value to this child and his family.


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## JasonASmith (Oct 4, 2006)

Does anyone else see the delicacy of this situation?
I am sure that it's not that big of a deal, but this could turn into a real cluster, couldn't it?


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

Kwan Jang said:


> This would at least allow you to bring him up to par without compromising your standards and those of your school, but still give you a chance to give value to this child and his family.



This sounds like the right balance. It should be possible to make it clear that the student needs to make up the deficiencies of their previous training, but to do so in a way which encourages and supports this child, rather than approaching it purely negatively. If he and his mother can be made to understand that he is going to get a lot more depth and breadth now, and that his previous exposure to TKD, to whatever extent, might well allow him to master the skills necessary to advance more rapidly than a complete beginner, then he will be able to begin his new training with Iceman full of optimism and enthusiasm rather than disappointment.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 4, 2006)

Wow, I didn't think I'd get so much response out of this question. Thanks to you all for your input. And keep it comin'.

I'm in the information gathering stage of it at this point. I've asked his folks to talk to Master X & find out the details of his test & certificate. (Especially, if it was really sent for). The kid's father told me today that the boy tested in March. The father told Master X then that the family was going to move out of town soon after the test. They did not for whatever reason. They left the dojang in July due to the cost. Master X called them after they left to get the boy's information for the KKW cert. (Why then & not in March? I wondered). His father was going to talk go this evening & talk w/ Master X to get details & find out when the cert. was coming. I told the father that, if he paid for it in March (which he did) it should be here long before now. He seemed very determined to have a talk w/ Master X after I told him that. 

I had the same questions that Master Stoker raises. "If he tested for KKW Poom, he should know Tae Guek or PalGwe forms." This I will find out tomorrow. If he doesn't, this boy & his folks have been sold a bill of goods. Great snazzy uniform, nice belt, but no real Taekwondo. Regardless of what belt he winds up with in my class, he'll learn solid Taekwondo. If I find that a KKW cert. has his name on it, I'll accept him as a poom. But, I'll also bring him up to par. After all, he is only 8....he's got plenty of time to learn.

I'll keep ya posted.


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## terryl965 (Oct 4, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> Wow, I didn't think I'd get so much response out of this question. Thanks to you all for your input. And keep it comin'.
> 
> I'm in the information gathering stage of it at this point. I've asked his folks to talk to Master X & find out the details of his test & certificate. (Especially, if it was really sent for). The kid's father told me today that the boy tested in March. The father told Master X then that the family was going to move out of town soon after the test. They did not for whatever reason. They left the dojang in July due to the cost. Master X called them after they left to get the boy's information for the KKW cert. (Why then & not in March? I wondered). His father was going to talk go this evening & talk w/ Master X to get details & find out when the cert. was coming. I told the father that, if he paid for it in March (which he did) it should be here long before now. He seemed very determined to have a talk w/ Master X after I told him that.
> 
> ...


 

Iceman you will do a great job of training him and getting him into KKW shape I have no doubt.


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## Terryowl (Oct 5, 2006)

Here is a fine example of the "belt factory" experience.

A child of 8 comes from another system. The child's parents spent a fortune for his training. His parents have no idea what they did or how the child was trained.

Sounds like a system they had going around the Michigan grade school/high school systems a few years ago, it was called "KICKS" or something..they who participated in it, said it was called TKD..we would get these kind of students regularly, and asked of any former training, or belt ranking, "white belt with black tip" or "purple belt with green stripe".

Asked about form's or what not, there weren't any form's or such. It was a basic self defense for up to 6 weeks. I think parents get bilked on this one.

I'd say, "good, he's a black belt in that system, I respect his rank, but in this school, it is a new system, he has to come up from white on up".

It doesn't matter, he is young. And if his parents are supporting his training, then they too want wants best for their child's interest.

It's like this..in the sytem I trained in, you maybe a 3-4th Dan in TKD, and then suddenly you decide to take up the HKD side, guess what? Your a White belt, regardless of your status. It's that simple. Or vise versa, you are involved in the HKD side of it, and then suddenly you wanted the TKD side of it, you started white and worked up.

It's "OK" to "belt" the kid! After all the kid's that I have seen train, go through the same identical training as an adult does.  Why should their belt be any different, because of age? But IMHO, a child with "black belt" level, should wear the red/black belt that indicates, they are a "JR. black belt". Until they reach that certain age.

It's basically like the ranking of this forum/site. You start out "white belt" and work your way up the ladder. LOL!


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## exile (Oct 5, 2006)

terryl965 said:


> Iceman you will do a great job of training him and getting him into KKW shape I have no doubt.



Terry's speaking for me and a lot of other people too. It _sounds_very much as though the dojang head was handing them a line all along and figured his outfit was off the hook b/c the family was moving, and then, when they didn't, started going through this charade to keep them off his case. I foresee all kinds of stories about the slow Korean postal system, holdups at the KKW, office staff there `losing the data', imaginary correspondence with the staff there leading to frustration... but he'll keep trying... etc....keeping them at arm's length so long that they eventually drop the whole thing. I hope I'm wrong about that, but it just...sounds...so..._fishy_. To me, it sounds like this little boy and his family were mistreated. The good part is that now he'll get some really training. The bad part is that there are still a lot of people at the other place paying big bucks for bogus belts and fancy patches.


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## kosho (Oct 5, 2006)

I had  a student come from a different school. She had a 2nd degree black belt...  I looked at her  and  we talked about  what she could do  and what she forgot. ( 4 hrs)  I placed her at the rank of Green belt in my school  and told her i would bring her to that level  and we would  go  from there. She is doing well  and is a strong role model in my school. *ALSO  I do Not give Rank of Black belt*  to  kids under tha age of 16.  even if  they  started with me  at  5 yrs old...  The kids  earn youth ranks  and when at 12 start adult ranks...  Youth rank goes up to Brown belt,  Than  at  adult ranks  they are started at Blue  belt...this  has worked really well for me..   and  the parents  are all on board...
Hoped this helped.


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## exile (Oct 5, 2006)

kosho said:


> I had  a student come from a different school. She had a 2nd degree black belt...  I looked at her  and  we talked about  what she could do  and what she forgot. ( 4 hrs)  I placed her at the rank of Green belt in my school  and told her i would bring her to that level  and we would  go  from there. She is doing well  and is a strong role model in my school. *ALSO  I do Not give Rank of Black belt*  to  kids under tha age of 16.  even if  they  started with me  at  5 yrs old...  The kids  earn youth ranks  and when at 12 start adult ranks...  Youth rank goes up to Brown belt,  Than  at  adult ranks  they are started at Blue  belt...this  has worked really well for me..   and  the parents  are all on board...
> Hoped this helped.



Kosho---I hope a lot of students are lucky enough to find their way to your dojang---the policy you describe sounds right on the money. Perfect combination of encouragement and maintenance of standards...


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## Nomad (Oct 5, 2006)

I would do as my instructor does... tell the new students that it's great that they went so far in their previous school, but that you need to evaluate them, and that you likely have teaching differences, etc. to the other school.  Ask them to wear a lower belt for now (probably not white since they're not a beginner... green maybe?), and let them know that they need to cover certain parts of the syllabus to truly earn the belt they're wearing.  If they are knowledgeable in the techniques and have a good attitude, they are likely to be promoted fairly quickly.  

This way, they don't feel like they're starting over from scratch, and you have options based on your observations of what they know and what they need to know to earn the rank.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 5, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Does anyone else see the delicacy of this situation?
> I am sure that it's not that big of a deal, but this could turn into a real cluster, couldn't it?


 

I think I see your point. But please, say more.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 5, 2006)

Nomad said:


> I would do as my instructor does... tell the new students that it's great that they went so far in their previous school, but that you need to evaluate them, and that you likely have teaching differences, etc. to the other school. Ask them to wear a lower belt for now (probably not white since they're not a beginner... green maybe?), and let them know that they need to cover certain parts of the syllabus to truly earn the belt they're wearing. If they are knowledgeable in the techniques and have a good attitude, they are likely to be promoted fairly quickly.
> 
> This way, they don't feel like they're starting over from scratch, and you have options based on your observations of what they know and what they need to know to earn the rank.


 
I'm going to check to see if he has a poom belt cert. (under 15 years old, BB) from his instructor. If so, then he's earned that rank & he will keep it. He will still have an awful lot to learn in my program. He won't be testing anytime soon. I will say this again about this child, he has the respect & attitude of someone who has spent 3 years in a dojang. That is nice to see. Too many others I've seen don't.


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## AceHBK (Oct 5, 2006)

How different would this conversation be if he was an adult??

If hedoesn't know all of his forms but is at a BB level for everything else, why not keep him at BB and have him work and know each of his forms?  

Being that this is a 8yr old child, stripping him of what he has worked 3 hard years for seems a bit harsh.  If he shows a willignness to learn your way why not let him keep his belt and make sure he picks up what u feel under your school rules he should know.

If this same situation rose about with a teenager or even an adult would the same rules apply or is it b/c he is 8 it is inconceivable that he is not capable of bieng that good?

After over 2 years of TKD I could never remember my forms for the life of me.  I would learn one but after I got to my next belt level I would slowly forget it.  Does it mean that I am not dedicated or not a true certified TKD'er with whatever belt I have now b/c I cant remember a form?  Of course not.  What it means is that I need to go back and work on it IF the dojang I attend says it is mandaotory to move FORWARD.

Leave him where he is and let him work on what u feel that he is lacking. Since he is 8 he has plenty of time to get things to where you feel it is satisfactory.

I think it is ticky tack to do that to a child or an adult.  If their skill is deficient then move them to where you feel they fall in your school and move from there.  If he needs to know previous forms then let that be the first thing that he learns.  I would think that if the situation was reversed and he knew all his forms and was great with them but was terrible at applications and sparring, would you move him back to white belt?

I refuse to take something away from someone especially a child that has worked hard for even if I believe that the standards are different than mine.  Leave them where they are and improve on what they have and go over what they missed.

I have never been big on the certification thing and I think to a large extent people put too much emphasis on it.  Everyone says the kid is too young and what not but hell go to China and kids at 8 are probably pretty damn good and have been practicing before 5.  You see and work with the kid, make your judgements on that rather than "he is 8..and cant remember forms or doesnt know them....bust him to white belt.  Make him humble.  Show him why your the better teacher."  Too much ego.

If forms is the only issue, let him keep his black belt and make him work on all his forms and let him test then under you if that is really all he is lacking.

Some say he needs to be retrained if he has bad habits.  Well what you may consider a bad habit maybe better for him.  After 3 years of training we all have our own stlye of TKD and how we perform it.  Isn't "perform it the best way it works for u and your body" a saying?  Now of course make sure he knows the proper way but if it a certain way works for him why try and retrain?  Why not work with it and add something or make slight adjustment instead of reprogram.

If he has EVERYTHING that you say he does for someone who has spent 3 years in a dojang then why move him to white belt?


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## IcemanSK (Oct 5, 2006)

Well said, AceHBK.

Here's the latest on my young charge. I talked to his mom, today. She said she would talk w/ Master X's wife tomorrow. She feels she'll get the truth & get the real answer as to whether or not a KKW cert was filed. Mom & Dad paid a good deal of money for the cert., they want to get what they paid for. The good news is that she has video tape of his poom test. That will make it easier to "proof" his test. Mom also told me she spoke to other parents who's kids tested a year before her son: they had not received certs. either. Mom was feeling like she'd been mistreated & lied to. I'm honestly surprised she's so willing to have her son take TKD again.

I evaluted my young charge. I should have figured saying poomsae (rather than forms) would click with him. That said, he only knew Tae Geuk Il Chong, however. He recognized Koryo when I showed it to him. 

Good news is, he's my student now. The mom seemed comforted by the fact that, Since I work for a non-profit Community Center, I don't make a dime teaching Taekwondo. I do it because I love the art & i love teaching kids.


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## Ceicei (Oct 5, 2006)

Sounds like a good resolution.  I'm sorry that your young charge isn't getting a certificate.  Certificates often have sentimental value for those who earn their black belts. 

What did you decide to do about his rank?  Are you letting him wear his black belt or have him start over at white, or perhaps evaluate and put him at a rank somewhere in between?

- Ceicei


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> Here's the latest on my young charge. I talked to his mom, today. She said she would talk w/ Master X's wife tomorrow. She feels she'll get the truth & get the real answer as to whether or not a KKW cert was filed. Mom & Dad paid a good deal of money for the cert., they want to get what they paid for. The good news is that she has video tape of his poom test. That will make it easier to "proof" his test. Mom also told me she spoke to other parents who's kids tested a year before her son: they had not received certs. either. Mom was feeling like she'd been mistreated & lied to. I'm honestly surprised she's so willing to have her son take TKD again.



Yes---sounds like a someone is running a real snake-oil operation. That boy's mother is right: they've both been mistreated, and it sounds like they're not the only ones there who've been. 



IcemanSK said:


> I evaluted my young charge. I should have figured saying poomsae (rather than forms) would click with him. That said, he only knew Tae Geuk Il Chong, however. He recognized Koryo when I showed it to him.
> 
> Good news is, he's my student now. The mom seemed comforted by the fact that, Since I work for a non-profit Community Center, I don't make a dime teaching Taekwondo. I do it because I love the art & i love teaching kids.



In the end, Iceman, it probably was the best thing that could have happened for your student and his family. He's going to get really good training, and his dan belt, when he gets it up the line someday, will have real meaning. It's just a pity that he _isn't_ going to have a real certificate when they thought he was getting KKW certification, but at least he's on track now.


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## MBuzzy (Oct 6, 2006)

Another question - Iceman, I know that you teach at a community Center, but do you chare test fees?

For the other instructors out there....8 year old OR adult, if you were to have them starting at a lower rank, would you charge them a test fee again?  More specifically, would you charge them a test fee for Black Belt when they made it, seeing as how those test fees can get rather expensive at some places....

That would be another big issue in my mind if I were the parent - would I have to repay for tests that I thought I had already paid for?


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

Ceicei said:


> What did you decide to do about his rank?  Are you letting him wear his black belt or have him start over at white, or perhaps evaluate and put him at a rank somewhere in between?
> 
> - Ceicei



I was wondering that too. If he knows at least one Taegeuk and sort of knows Koryo, white belt seems a bit too junior.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 6, 2006)

MBuzzy said:


> That would be another big issue in my mind if I were the parent - would I have to repay for tests that I thought I had already paid for?



That would be something for the instructor to explain - you paid for the tests and got nothing to show for it, basically you were scammed.  My tests are real and if you want to sit them, then you'll earn a real grade with a real recognised certificate after it.

It also depends how much the instructor charges - if he then says his dan grading is only $1000 then it's all another veneer of ********.  If it's say 50% above the Kukkiwon fee (included) then it sounds a lot more real.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 6, 2006)

MBuzzy said:


> Another question - Iceman, I know that you teach at a community Center, but do you chare test fees?
> 
> For the other instructors out there....8 year old OR adult, if you were to have them starting at a lower rank, would you charge them a test fee again? More specifically, would you charge them a test fee for Black Belt when they made it, seeing as how those test fees can get rather expensive at some places....
> 
> That would be another big issue in my mind if I were the parent - would I have to repay for tests that I thought I had already paid for?


 
The Community Center serves a neighborhood that is very poor. We charge a nominal fee for 11 weeks sessions. Testing fees are strictly what my organization charges. They are quite reasonable & I don't tack on anything. As I said, the mom is going to talk to Master X's wife tonight & see if she can't get what they've paid for. I'm encouraging them to go that route first. (Heck, even small claims court, maybe). With the money they paid, Master X was more than compensated to file for a KKW cert. now. 

I'll do everything I can to help him get what he tested for. In small claims court, the video of him testing for poom belt wouldn't look good for Master X.

I was scammed for my 2nd Dan (Took the test, got a phony ITF cert.) I don't want it too happen to anyone else if I can help it. The instructor who gave me the phony cert. used to say, "What does the Korean say on your belt? It says, 'this guy paid too much for this belt.'" He was obviously foreshadowing what would happen to me. Like I said, I don't want that to be true for this kid.


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> The instructor who gave me the phony cert. used to say, "What does the Korean say on your belt? It says, 'this guy paid too much for this belt.'" He was obviously foreshadowing what would happen to me.



?? Boy, is that _cynical_! Gives you a good idea of what's lurking out there in (Mc)dojang-land...

If the boy's mother mentions, pointedly, in her chat with the owners that she has the film of the successful poom test, they may be able to connect the dots and decide to cooperate, without her actually having to tell them up-front that she'll see them in court if they don't do what they contracted to do. I have a feeling people like that are playing the percentages and it's not worth their while facing a lawsuit that they could very likely lose.


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## matt.m (Oct 6, 2006)

Iceman, your heart is in the right place my man.  Oh, a few pages worth of posts ago I was talking about the little 8 yr old girl from another school that was a red belt.  Well we sat down and asked her how many tests she had.  We, along with her uncle that is a brown belt in our org. figured her out to be a blue belt.

We showed her the number of belts and how they coorelated etc.  She had been out of TKD for a year and doesn't remember any poomse at all.  However, she is the most respectful and sincere little kid.  It is ok in her eyes to be taught by a lower ranking adult belt because she doesn't understand etc.

I think a lot of the things about the characteristics you describe about the little boy with this girl are very similar.

Good for you for helping this kid.


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## Kacey (Oct 6, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> I'll do everything I can to help him get what he tested for. In small claims court, the video of him testing for poom belt wouldn't look good for Master X.
> 
> I was scammed for my 2nd Dan (Took the test, got a phony ITF cert.) I don't want it too happen to anyone else if I can help it. The instructor who gave me the phony cert. used to say, "What does the Korean say on your belt? It says, 'this guy paid too much for this belt.'" He was obviously foreshadowing what would happen to me. Like I said, I don't want that to be true for this kid.



These are the types of things that make you a good instructor, and Master X the operator of a McDojo.  Kudos to you for doing what is right for the student, and not just what is easiest for your class.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Oct 7, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> He actually said to me, "It's been 3 months, I'm not sure I remember how to tie my belt."



:xtrmshock

IMHO, call me a hardass if you want, but this youngster is not prepared to wear or sport a black belt that's affiliated with any type of repudiable Taekwondo organization/federation/club, etc., etc.


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## AceHBK (Oct 7, 2006)

The main thing is to not punish the kid for what he may lack.  It is the past instructor's fault for his students short comings if he wasn't a good teacher.  

You want to make sure that you don't crush his spirit or self confidence.  Kids are fragile and so therefore handle it was ease.


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## ajs1976 (Oct 7, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> True story. I had an 8 year old & his mom walk in last night for the 1st night of class. He is a black belt from another school in town. (Mom said that after 3 years, it got too expensive,there). I asked about a KKW certificate & mom said that it was "coming in December." My cynicism tells me that if a student leaves a school before getting his cert. his instructor won't send it in.



Have you checked the KKW website to see if he shows up?

There is a check for Poom/Dan link on the homepage.  http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/index.jsp


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## IcemanSK (Oct 7, 2006)

doc clean said:


> Have you checked the KKW website to see if he shows up?
> 
> There is a check for Poom/Dan link on the homepage. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/index.jsp


 
Funny you should mention that. I wanted to give Master X the benefit of the doubt that he had it in process. I looked: no dice. I'll find out next week what Master X told the parents.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 7, 2006)

AceHBK said:


> The main thing is to not punish the kid for what he may lack. It is the past instructor's fault for his students short comings if he wasn't a good teacher.
> 
> You want to make sure that you don't crush his spirit or self confidence. Kids are fragile and so therefore handle it was ease.


 
This is in the front of my mind at every step with this kid. He came to my program: so he's not soured on TKD after the experience w/ Master X. I don't want him to feel like his black belt is worthless (& therefore making him worthless by wearing it) etc. 

I talked w/ an instructor friend in my organization about it today. He said that in 12 years, he's had about 5-6 such situations. Only one has stayed with it. Some were kids, some adults. Most couldn't handle the change of expectations of their techniques needing being better. That's seems like a natural difficulty that would be hard to overcome. "It was good enough at the last school, why not here?" Heck, "different technique" is hard for most people.

Thanks for the reminder, Ace!


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 8, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> ...Have any of you instructors/school owners come across this? What did you do? If you haven't yet, how would you handle it?


Boy, that's a tough call. If he can't do the requirements then he shouldn't proceed on to new material. I'd say let him keep his belt but he will have to learn all of the filler requirements to get him to his rank in your school.

I'm less than 3 weeks away from opening my own school and I hope this doesn't happen to me. I won't be teaching the TKD curriculum so it might be easier for me. Good luck. I'm going to keep checking back on this thread.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 8, 2006)

jfarnsworth said:


> Boy, that's a tough call. If he can't do the requirements then he shouldn't proceed on to new material. I'd say let him keep his belt but he will have to learn all of the filler requirements to get him to his rank in your school.
> 
> I'm less than 3 weeks away from opening my own school and I hope this doesn't happen to me. I won't be teaching the TKD curriculum so it might be easier for me. Good luck. I'm going to keep checking back on this thread.


 

I appreciate your thoughts Mr. Farnsworth. I don't plan on teaching him any NEW material, except for the specific one steps that the white & yellow belts know. He'll be 1st poom for a lloongg time.


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## terryl965 (Oct 8, 2006)

Iceman have you checked the Kukkiwon website to verify his claim and frankly I do see a major problem you will have, Let talk shall we. I be very blount and may offend some people but it is not my intentions.

1) He took the test like you saw on the video in your opinion did he past I would say NO, with the standards that your organization has he would be a white belt and you my friend knows that all to well.

2) If a student cannot remember a set of Poomsae he has been doing for over two years than he is no BBB not even a poom and you know that, I have 3 eight year old Kukkiwon Pooms at my school they know every poomsae and I'm not bragging just stating a fact and a lot of schools poom know all there form so again no way no how a BB

3) And to me this is the most important thing to consider to your school that has just been open for the general public what are you telling your students to bring in a child that does not know his Tae Kwon Do material and you let him stay at a level you do not teach, this is what it says go there to get a BB in a little time and I'll accept it when you come back.

Please Iceman you are a great teacher of our Art do not compomise the integrity that has been already taited by another Master X, explain that his training was not a waste of time he did learn somethings but it is alway better to start from a new and learn everything that he was suppose to learn and really recieve a BB that will be worth his wieght in Gold.

I know how passoniate you are Sir and some times starting with an emplty cup the water will fill so much faster than trying to regroup from someone or Master X mistakes, Please take the time and pray about what I have said and you will see the light at the end of a journey for a young mans future, recieving and keeping something with short cuts will only teach short cuts in life and to help this young man gain the responsibilities you can give him would be so rewarding in itself.

I wish you luck sir
Master Stoker


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## searcher (Oct 8, 2006)

This may have been asked offline or in a post and I missed it, but Iceman have you went to the other school and talked with MasterX?   I tend to bypass the student and go straight to the head of the problem.   This may be to direct for whatever town you live in, but it can be effective.   I am just trying to say that if this guy was producing crap in my town and in my organization I get pretty hot about it.   Don't start a war, but maybe a civilized confrontation is in order.


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## IcemanSK (Oct 8, 2006)

searcher said:


> This may have been asked offline or in a post and I missed it, but Iceman have you went to the other school and talked with MasterX? I tend to bypass the student and go straight to the head of the problem. This may be to direct for whatever town you live in, but it can be effective. I am just trying to say that if this guy was producing crap in my town and in my organization I get pretty hot about it. Don't start a war, but maybe a civilized confrontation is in order.


 

I hear what you're saying, Searcher. But the organization is the WTF & not a close-knit organization like the USCDKA (my main organization). Frankly, if it were the USCDKA, I'd be small potatoes compared to who would be on this guy for teaching like that. 

But, since it's another WTF school, I'd rather encourage the parents to talk to him first. If they don't get anywhere, perhaps I will talk to Master X at some point. But, I'd rather be known as the guy who teaches TKD well in my town. Word will get out.


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## matt.m (Oct 9, 2006)

Ok, I talked to my pop about what he would do.  He teaches hapkido but I got a comprable answer to what I find you may find as a decent compromise.

I put it in kids class scenerio for him so he knew to use kid diplomacy, so his answer was this and I am seeing my GM using this same thought process I will explain in a moment.

Dad said, "Start at white belt, if you are doing well then we will accelerate promote you and not charge you the testing fee."

I have a member of my class that made red belt as a kid, I have known him a long time.  Same organization, no biggie.  However, he began again as a white belt and is accelerating testing.  He was fine with that.  The guy is now in his 30's like me, I know there is a big difference in maturity between 32 and 8.  However, if you explain to the parents in this manner they can soften the disappointment blow.


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## Dillon Hall (Oct 11, 2006)

I think that it is sad that anyone would grant a Black Belt to an 8 year old. I an a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and I know that at least with my art that an 8 year old could not achieve such a rank. They would have to wait to be a little older before that happened. 
As for what to do, are your two studios affiliated with the same organization? If they are, you may consider allowing him to test for a rank appropriate to his level in your school or have him start over as a white belt. It makes little difference but if he does not know his Hyung or anything, certainly do not have a black belt 8 year old.


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## matt.m (Oct 13, 2006)

Dillon Hall said:


> I think that it is sad that anyone would grant a Black Belt to an 8 year old. I an a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and I know that at least with my art that an 8 year old could not achieve such a rank. They would have to wait to be a little older before that happened.
> As for what to do, are your two studios affiliated with the same organization? If they are, you may consider allowing him to test for a rank appropriate to his level in your school or have him start over as a white belt. It makes little difference but if he does not know his Hyung or anything, certainly do not have a black belt 8 year old.


 
Dillion, I see your point.  However, to say who cares if he knows his hyung?  That my friend is a substantial part of the Tae kwon Do cirriculum.  It is a big deal if a practitioner knows their poomse, very much so indeed.


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## matt.m (Oct 13, 2006)

Iceman,

Has there been a resolution to your new student yet?  I know it has been a touchy subject.


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## exile (Oct 13, 2006)

matt.m said:


> Dillion, I see your point.  However, to say who cares if he knows his hyung?  That my friend is a substantial part of the Tae kwon Do cirriculum.  It is a big deal if a practitioner knows their poomse, very much so indeed.



Very true, and it's also the case that the `black belt' in question was a poom rank, not a dan. I actually think it's a bit of stretch to hae poom grading for someone that young, but there's still a _big_ difference between poom and dan in the eyes of KKW.


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## Ceicei (Oct 13, 2006)

matt.m said:


> Iceman,
> 
> Has there been a resolution to your new student yet?  I know it has been a touchy subject.



Iceman,
I too am wondering (along with others); however, we are patient here.  This is a situation you would not want to rush.  Keep us updated when you do find out more information.

- Ceicei


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## exile (Oct 13, 2006)

matt.m said:


> Iceman,
> 
> Has there been a resolution to your new student yet?  I know it has been a touchy subject.



Don't want to camoflage Matt's query with my latest post, so will just echo his question (which I too am curious about)... any further outcomes at this point?


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## IcemanSK (Oct 13, 2006)

matt.m said:


> Iceman,
> 
> Has there been a resolution to your new student yet? I know it has been a touchy subject.


 

Here's what is going to happen with this child. We are going to recognize his rank without certifying his rank. Which means, he will be able to wear his rank, but he will have to get up to speed. Once he is, then he will be recommended (by me) for certification of his rank. He has a lot of work to do. If he is willing to work, he'll have rank that means something: because he'll know he earned it.

Regarding his KKW cert.: I told his mom to call the old school about the cert.every 2 weeks until December 9th (the day she was told the cert would be in). If Master X was smart, he ordered it this week. It might get here by Dec 9th.

Thanks for your questions & helping me to think of parts of it I need to consider. I would seriously doubt I'd grant a poom rank for a 8 year old if he/she was my student from day one. But I will get him up to where he needs to be...even if it takes until he's 15. I've been keeping his self-esteem in mind, his parent's distrust of TKD folks, as well as the standards of my organization in mind. I ordered a poom belt & dobok for him to recognize his rank for a few reasons. One reason is so he's not wearing his old school's dobok & belt. He's in a new school, things will be different here.


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## exile (Oct 13, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> Here's what is going to happen with this child. We are going to recognize his rank without certifying his rank. Which means, he will be able to wear his rank, but he will have to get up to speed. Once he is, then he will be recommended (by me) for certification of his rank. He has a lot of work to do. If he is willing to work, he'll have rank that means something: because he'll know he earned it.
> 
> Regarding his KKW cert.: I told his mom to call the old school about the cert.every 2 weeks until December 9th (the day she was told the cert would be in). If Master X was smart, he ordered it this week. It might get here by Dec 9th.
> 
> Thanks for your questions & helping me to think of parts of it I need to consider. I would seriously doubt I'd grant a poom rank for a 8 year old if he/she was my student from day one. But I will get him up to where he needs to be...even if it takes until he's 15. I've been keeping his self-esteem in mind, his parent's distrust of TKD folks, as well as the standards of my organization in mind. I ordered a poom belt & dobok for him to recognize his rank for a few reasons. One reason is so he's not wearing his old school's dobok & belt. He's in a new school, things will be different here.



Iceman---sounds to me as if you've covered every important base here. He's a lucky kid, and his parents lucky parents, to have found your dojang. He can still feel he's done something worthwhile (which he has), he's now going to get real training and honest evaluation, and your school's standards are intact. And getting him into a new belt and dobok was exactly right---will help him flush that bad previous experience from his mind and feel at home in his new program. A very good day's work, all 'round!


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## IcemanSK (Oct 13, 2006)

exile said:


> Iceman---sounds to me as if you've covered every important base here. He's a lucky kid, and his parents lucky parents, to have found your dojang. He can still feel he's done something worthwhile (which he has), he's now going to get real training and honest evaluation, and your school's standards are intact. And getting him into a new belt and dobok was exactly right---will help him flush that bad previous experience from his mind and feel at home in his new program. A very good day's work, all 'round!


 

That's very kind of you to say, sir.:asian:


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## Kacey (Oct 13, 2006)

exile said:


> Iceman---sounds to me as if you've covered every important base here. He's a lucky kid, and his parents lucky parents, to have found your dojang. He can still feel he's done something worthwhile (which he has), he's now going to get real training and honest evaluation, and your school's standards are intact. And getting him into a new belt and dobok was exactly right---will help him flush that bad previous experience from his mind and feel at home in his new program. A very good day's work, all 'round!


 
I agree completely - you've done a great job recognizing the work he did for his previous instructor (after all, it's not the kid's fault) and still maintaining your own standards.  :asian:


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## terryl965 (Oct 13, 2006)

Iceman you made all the right decission.
You are a great admoiratio to us all.
Terry


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## matt.m (Oct 14, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> Here's what is going to happen with this child. We are going to recognize his rank without certifying his rank. Which means, he will be able to wear his rank, but he will have to get up to speed. Once he is, then he will be recommended (by me) for certification of his rank. He has a lot of work to do. If he is willing to work, he'll have rank that means something: because he'll know he earned it.
> 
> Regarding his KKW cert.: I told his mom to call the old school about the cert.every 2 weeks until December 9th (the day she was told the cert would be in). If Master X was smart, he ordered it this week. It might get here by Dec 9th.
> 
> Thanks for your questions & helping me to think of parts of it I need to consider. I would seriously doubt I'd grant a poom rank for a 8 year old if he/she was my student from day one. But I will get him up to where he needs to be...even if it takes until he's 15. I've been keeping his self-esteem in mind, his parent's distrust of TKD folks, as well as the standards of my organization in mind. I ordered a poom belt & dobok for him to recognize his rank for a few reasons. One reason is so he's not wearing his old school's dobok & belt. He's in a new school, things will be different here.


 
I have to chime in with the rest, you made imo the best possible decision with what you were given.  I salute you.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 26, 2007)

An Update:

Last week, my 8 year old BB's mom brought in the KKW Poom cert. that she actually received from Master X. I've checked it with the KKW Dan/Poom check on the KKW site. But it came up empty. Perhaps they haven't been able to update it, yet.

Yesterday, the mom asked, "When can he test again?" I resisted the urge to scream, & politely said, "BB tests aren't like color belt tests that come every few months. It's years in between tests. In your son's case, he needs to relearn every form & put in a lot of effort before he tests again."

I believe that there's a 50/50 chance that this cert. is legit. As I've said before, it's in my best interest to have a BB student. But I'm honestly not sure he'll stick around long enough to learn my way of training. Time will tell.


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## exile (Jan 26, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> An Update:
> 
> Last week, my 8 year old BB's mom brought in the KKW Poom cert. that she actually received from Master X. I've checked it with the KKW Dan/Poom check on the KKW site. But it came up empty. Perhaps they haven't been able to update it, yet.
> 
> ...



For his sake, let's hope he does, Iceman. He's gonna get a lot further going your route than the alternative. And his parents need to understand that what's important about MA training is content, not credential. The latter is valuable only if the content which the credential asserts really is there. For some reason it's hard for people to get their minds around this idea. But I suspect that if anyone can get it across to them, it's you. Good luck with this young fellow's ongoing saga!


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## TKDDAD (Jan 26, 2007)

*IcemanSK*

My son is 13 year old and is a KKW 1st Poom. I could see is KKW# dtd 5/5/2006 before the actual certificate arrivial on 5/29/2006. 

I also should mention that when looking up KKW Certificates the Country, Full First Middle and Last Name and Date of Birth has to match exactly or the KKW Certificate # will not display. (This you probably already know, I just posted that for those who didn't know.)

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/index.jsp

I don't think KKW would mail out a Certificate without first updating there database first. It would be an administrative processing procedure in any business or organization. Kind of like posting an invoice into accounts receiveable database before mailing it out to the customer. You can see the invoice from the web before it actually arrives to the customer.

After reading all the other posts on this thread, was curious as to how the student is progressing after three months?

What was the reaction of the other color belt students to having a younger student with a Black Belt that wasn't as skilled and knowledgeable as they were?

From what I have read so far, this student is in the proper hands now. 

Please keep in mind that I am veiwing this as a TKD Parent and not a TKD Master.

Best Regards,
TKDDAD​


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## terryl965 (Jan 26, 2007)

I have to agre with TKDDad here is certificate should be already posted but anything could have happened. How is the young man adjusting.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 26, 2007)

TKDDAD said:


> *IcemanSK*​
> 
> My son is 13 year old and is a KKW 1st Poom. I could see is KKW# dtd 5/5/2006 before the actual certificate arrivial on 5/29/2006.​
> I also should mention that when looking up KKW Certificates the Country, Full First Middle and Last Name and Date of Birth has to match exactly or the KKW Certificate # will not display. (This you probably already know, I just posted that for those who didn't know.)​
> ...


 

The reaction of my other students (the highest rank is only 8th Gup Gold belt) has been one of puzzlement. "This is a BB from another school?!" Seems to be their attitude, but not spoken comments (I wouldn't allow that!) They're kind to him, but they know I have a higher standard for them than this young mean's former instructor had of him. I try to show that they need to respect his achievement, & still try to have the best technique they can.

How's the young man doing? He tends to "phone in" class instead of really working hard to even come up to the ability of other 8 year olds in the class. I wish I could use him as an example of 1 or 2 good techniques, to include him in teaching, but I can't, yet.  I think it's time to suggest private lessons to mom so that we can get him up to speed. I'm doing that with a young lady who trained at another school for a few months before she attends my class. That way, she understands my expectations. She's very excited already.

I re-checked the KKW cert. (I didn't notice that his Nationality was listed as Mexican, not American, duh!) It is legit! I want to help him want to make that mean something to him. I really hope he sticks around.


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## bydand (Jan 26, 2007)

Sounds like this kid is lucky to have found your school and you for an instructor.  Hope he sticks it out.  Having high standards is tough when other schools around an area are turning out higher ranked students in much shorter time.  I think the true students of an art will see what a benefit it is to be lower ranking, and better trained; than the other way around.


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