# The GOLDEN SCORE: A Necesssary Evil?



## Patrick Skerry (Sep 9, 2004)

Another concept borrowed from sports and applied to the martial arts is The Golden Score, otherwise known as sudden death overtime.

If a tie or no points is achieved during a four minute judo match, a second match of five minutes immediately begins and the first score will win, whether by koka, yuko, shido, or ippon.  But will the first penalty decide the match too?

Prior to the Golden Score, the judges would raise the flags but the decision was not always unanimous.  The Golden Score takes the decision from out of the hands of the judges, but it doesn't encourage good judo, since the lowest score, or penalty, wins.

The Golden Score is meant to encourage attacking judo, but attacking judo is sloppy judo, so the question: is the Golden Score a necessary evil?


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 10, 2004)

Okay, new Idea..DRINKING GAME
1 Drink for "Kano"
1 Drink for "Blue Gi"
1 Drink for listing an html link
1 Drink if we are informed we are "wrong"
1 Drink for "Sloppy Judo"

Let's get good and drunk!


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 10, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Another concept borrowed from sports and applied to the martial arts is The Golden Score, otherwise known as sudden death overtime.
> 
> If a tie or no points is achieved during a four minute judo match, a second match of five minutes immediately begins and the first score will win, whether by koka, yuko, shido, or ippon. But will the first penalty decide the match too?
> 
> ...


Well I dont' see it as an evil, and from a sporting standpoint it is exellent way to finish a match. And any judo can be good judo


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Okay, new Idea..DRINKING GAME
> 1 Drink for "Kano"
> 1 Drink for "Blue Gi"
> 1 Drink for listing an html link
> ...


i'm sorry...this game is too dangerous...we'd all be dead from alcohol poisoning long before we finished going through the posts...


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 10, 2004)

> Okay, new Idea..DRINKING GAME
> 1 Drink for "Kano"
> 1 Drink for "Blue Gi"
> 1 Drink for listing an html link
> ...


 :cheers: 
:drinkbeer :drinkbeer :drinkbeer :drinkbeer :drinkbeer 

:burp: 
:barf:


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Well I dont' see it as an evil, and from a sporting standpoint it is exellent way to finish a match. And any judo can be good judo


I agree as far as sports are concerned that any form of 'sudden death overtime' is an excellent and exciting way to finish a match.  But as you see, judo is being re-engineered as a sport, the IJF contest rules have been purposely manipulated to encourage 'attacking' judo (which is an oxymoron) to attract hordes of ticket buying (and beer swilling) spectators.

The newly devised 1997 IJF rules penalize defensive judo.  The four minute matches are designed to encourage continuous action for the sole purpose of spectator entertainment.  And finally, the 'Golden Score' awards victory to the first point (or penalty), from koka to ippon.  This will only encourage sloppy judo.

I also agree with you that "...any judo can be good judo." only as long as its judo, and not a mixture of Sambo, wrestling, and BJJ stuff, and calling it judo.

So the 'Golden Score' does have its good qualities, but it will promote awful judo.


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 10, 2004)

Oh darn, no drinks. Wait, I think I can take one for being "Wrong". Cheers!


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

also have to drink for bringing up 1997 IJF rules...



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> I agree as far as sports are concerned that any form of 'sudden death overtime' is an excellent and exciting way to finish a match. But as you see, *judo is being re-engineered as a sport*, the* IJF contest rules* have been purposely manipulated to encourage 'attacking' judo (which is an oxymoron) to attract hordes of ticket buying (and beer swilling) spectators.
> 
> The newly devised *1997 IJF rules* penalize defensive judo. The four minute matches are designed to encourage continuous action for the sole purpose of spectator entertainment. And finally, the 'Golden Score' awards victory to the first point (or penalty), from koka to ippon. This will only encourage *sloppy judo.*
> 
> ...


Drink up!


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Oh darn, no drinks. Wait, I think I can take one for being "Wrong". Cheers!


Just to be briefly 'off topic' what is your opinion of the 'repechage' in judo plus the Golden Score?


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 10, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Just to be briefly 'off topic' what is your opinion of the 'repechage' in judo plus the Golden Score?



Well it did I belive give us the Bronze for Jimmy Pedro. Today the year is 2004 and if the higher ups want judo to be played like this, I'll abide by it.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Well it did I belive give us the Bronze for Jimmy Pedro. Today the year is 2004 and if the higher ups want judo to be played like this, I'll abide by it.


But the 1997 IJF change in judo contest rules are what is being used today in 2004, rule changes which a lot of judo people don't agree with, like people who represent the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Association.  

Also, I am not aware of any vote or discussion about these changes being put out to all practicing judoka.

I was recently in e-mail contact with a Mr. Ohlenberg of the Encino Judo Club and he said that the IJF contest rules only really have an impact on higher level major tournaments.  The majority of local and regional tournaments are mostly unaffected by the IJF indescretion.  Yet, I have seen first hand here in the Boston area, total adherence to the IJF rule changes at the local and regional level.  Tomorrow, Saturday, I will be attending a local shiai (acting shimpan), but hesitate to be controversial for the sake of the kyu grades.


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 10, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> But the 1997 IJF change in judo contest rules are what is being used today in 2004, rule changes which a lot of judo people don't agree with, like people who represent the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Association.
> 
> Also, I am not aware of any vote or discussion about these changes being put out to all practicing judoka.
> 
> I was recently in e-mail contact with a Mr. Ohlenberg of the Encino Judo Club and he said that the IJF contest rules only really have an impact on higher level major tournaments.  The majority of local and regional tournaments are mostly unaffected by the IJF indescretion.  Yet, I have seen first hand here in the Boston area, total adherence to the IJF rule changes at the local and regional level.  Tomorrow, Saturday, I will be attending a local shiai (acting shimpan), but hesitate to be controversial for the sake of the kyu grades.



Um..judo is NOT a democracy, they don't NEED to send out changes to all of us judoka. *shakes head* Are you really THAT important?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Um..judo is NOT a democracy, they don't NEED to send out changes to all of us judoka. *shakes head* Are you really THAT important?


Its not about me.  It's about judo.

And again I agree with you that judo is not a democracy - but who is in charge?

Is it the IJF?  Is it the IOC?  Is it the Kodokan?  Is it the AJJF?  Is it the USJA?  Is it the USJF?  Is it the USJI?  Is it JudoAmerica?  They all think they are in charge of determining judo's future!  

I am simply requesting clarification.

The implementation of the Golden Score was done by only one, not all, of these governing bodies.

To keep this thread on topic, the Golden Score is a necessary evil only if you are willing to see judo become a sport.


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 10, 2004)

And that's what Judo is. Now. Not then, not when it started, now. Think it'll just stop, various people will relinquish power and it'll be all hunky dory as you say Kano meant? You're tilting at windmills. But tilt away!


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> And that's what Judo is. Now. Not then, not when it started, now. Think it'll just stop, various people will relinquish power and it'll be all hunky dory as you say Kano meant? You're tilting at windmills. But tilt away!


So you think the Golden Score is tilting at windmills?  There is nothing Quixotic about the Golden Score, it is real and being practiced as we type.  Yet, I am among the opinions that the Golden Score will only encourage Godan judo (as Dr. Kano referred to poor judo practice).


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 10, 2004)

You should write a book on all this. Really.


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

i still want to know where kano was critical of Kyuzo Mifune's judo....as you stated in another thread


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> i still want to know where kano was critical of Kyuzo Mifune's judo....as you stated in another thread


I've been googling that question since yesterday, for some reason JudoInfo.com has crashed.  I'm filtering through other sources.

Politics being what they are, Dr. Kano criticized Kyuzo Mifune's judo but still promoted him.  Dr. Kano, as an old man, reluctantly promoted Mifune sensei to judan.  Just as the various schools of ju-jutsu reluctantly accepted judo.


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

so what you're saying is that all you have for evidence is, "I said so..."...honestly...if Kano was a man of such high ideals and a genius as you refer to him...there's no way he would've promoted a bad judoka


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> so what you're saying is that all you have for evidence is, "I said so..."...honestly...if Kano was a man of such high ideals and a genius as you refer to him...there's no way he would've promoted a bad judoka


What makes you think Mifune sensei was a bad judoka?


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 10, 2004)

Oooh boy. Here we go again. And of course judoinfo crashed, you've over loaded it by looking up the "truth". Nice turn away above btw


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Oooh boy. Here we go again. And of course judoinfo crashed, you've over loaded it by looking up the "truth". Nice turn away above btw


And your further thoughts regarding the golden score are?


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## Flatlander (Sep 10, 2004)

Mod Hat off.

My thoughts regarding the 'Golden Score' are: should one choose not to practice one's art as a sport, one should care not about sporting rules.  Furthermore, should one refuse to answer others' questions regarding their martial education in a consistent fashion, one is usually a troll.  An illegitimate poster.  One without credibility.  An armchair martial artist.  A wanna be.

Those are my thoughts on the 'Golden Score'.


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

what's the difference between the golden score and a regulation judo match...where it can be one by a single ippon...regular judo matches are sudden death, too...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> what's the difference between the golden score and a regulation judo match...where it can be one by a single ippon...regular judo matches are sudden death, too...


Excellent question, that is the whole point, why the 'Golden Score' in the first place?  What was on the IJF's mind?  The promotion of $port$ or the betterment of judo?


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

so, patrick, how long have you been studying judo


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Mod Hat off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> so, patrick, how long have you been studying judo


Since I was eight, I made Shodan two months ago.  All through local and regional shiais, round robin, and the bad point system.


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## Flatlander (Sep 10, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> THEN if one chooses not to practice one's art as a sport, THEN sporting rules should not be _imposed _on them.


Absolutely.  This would be a function of your instructor, not the art.  If there is difficulty in finding non-sport oriented instruction, what does that tell you about the state of the art itself?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Absolutely. This would be a function of your instructor, not the art. If there is difficulty in finding non-sport oriented instruction, what does that tell you about the state of the art itself?


Not so much the state of the art, or of the instructor who also might have reservations, but the state of the governing body, or 'bodies' as in the case for judo.


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Since I was eight, I made Shodan two months ago. All through local and regional shiais, round robin, and the bad point system.


holy crap...a straight answer...although there is plenty of evidence that supports that you are really jack stay...or at least the person behind the jack stay persona...honestly...i don't think there are too many people that think you're only 19


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 10, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> holy crap...a straight answer...although there is plenty of evidence that supports that you are really jack stay...or at least the person behind the jack stay persona...honestly...i don't think there are too many people that think you're only 19


But I do believe that you are  a Rokyu in judo.


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

yes i am...and i'm honest about it...

just as honest as i was the time you asked me who my instructors were...and i told you...like i've asked you, but you've never even acknowledged the request...

i've been studying judo and jujutsu, both, for two years and have not tested from yellow belt to orange because i'm not that concerned about rank...i'm in it for the love of judo


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 11, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> yes i am...and i'm honest about it...
> 
> just as honest as i was the time you asked me who my instructors were...and i told you...like i've asked you, but you've never even acknowledged the request...
> 
> i've been studying judo and jujutsu, both, for two years and have not tested from yellow belt to orange because i'm not that concerned about rank...i'm in it for the love of judo


But you weren't being honest when you wrote you weren't coming back to this thread.  You are too inconsistant to be taken seriously.  Hecklers are routinely ignored in my dojo!


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## Flatlander (Sep 11, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> But you weren't being honest when you wrote you weren't coming back to this thread. You are too inconsistant to be taken seriously. Hecklers are routinely ignored in my dojo!


Which dojo is that?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 11, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Which dojo is that?


You know flatlander, to be perfectly honest, based on some of the odd responses to my posts, I really don't want to identify my dojo here.

P.S. I just came back from a monthly shiai, and the Golden Score was used twice.  Neither brown belt competitor had ever heard of it before.


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## Flatlander (Sep 11, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> You know flatlander, to be perfectly honest, based on some of the odd responses to my posts, I really don't want to identify my dojo here.


Fair enough, you're not required to provide that information if you're not comfortable doing so.


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## bignick (Sep 11, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> But you weren't being honest when you wrote you weren't coming back to this thread. You are too inconsistant to be taken seriously. Hecklers are routinely ignored in my dojo!


you're having trouble keeping your ducks in a row...i never said i was leaving this thread...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 11, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> what's the difference between the golden score and a regulation judo match...where it can be one by a single ippon...regular judo matches are sudden death, too...


Just to remain on topic, and with an intelligent question from this rokyu, not all regulation judo matches are sudden death overtime, which is the Golden Score.

During your initial four minute match (it used to be 12 minutes & 15 minutes in the Olympics), you can acuire points or penalties as time progresses.  But with the Golden Score, the first point or penalty decides the match.

But will this improve judo?  As the participants don't really care how they win in sudden death overtime, they'll do anything to win, particularly in major championships.  So this is one of the controversies of the 'Golden Score', it is just another way to promote attacking judo and not good judo.


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## bignick (Sep 11, 2004)

an ippon wins the match, as does a tap out or a choke out...at any time...yes there are various other ways to score and accumulate points...but every judo match is "sudden death" in the fact that it can be ended at any point...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 11, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> an ippon wins the match, as does a tap out or a choke out...at any time...yes there are various other ways to score and accumulate points...but every judo match is "sudden death" in the fact that it can be ended at any point...


But that in not what the 'Golden Score' means.  If you get tapped out or choked out during anytime during your initial four minute match, that ends it - no 'Golden Score'.  Only if there is a tie, or no points made at the end of the match, then it goes into 'Golden Score'.  The first point wins.

Its all engineered to entertain the $pectator$ at the expense of good judo.


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## bignick (Sep 11, 2004)

i'd much rather have the contest decided by the contestants themselves not referees that may or may not be impartial...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 11, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> i'd much rather have the contest decided by the contestants themselves not referees that may or may not be impartial...


One of the justifications for the Golden Score is that is eliminates the judges decision.  (But someone has to award the winning point?)

A criticism is that is just make for more lazy referees.  There was a paper at the IJF site about a lack of qualified international referee crisis.  The Golden Score isn't going to help train judges or refs, that's for sure.

A judo shiai is just as much technique testing for the referee's as it is for the contestants.


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## bignick (Sep 11, 2004)

and they still referee the match...you could argue about corner judges being less important...

a ref awarding the winning pointis a lot less objective than awarding the match based on intangibles such as dominance during the match...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 11, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> and they still referee the match...you could argue about corner judges being less important...
> 
> a ref awarding the winning pointis a lot less objective than awarding the match based on intangibles such as dominance during the match...


Yes that is true, not necessarily concerning the Golden Score, but very true nevertheless.

The issue with the Golden Score is will the penalty also decide the winner?  This will put a lot more power on the side of the judges, not the referree?  A lot of judo matches are won by the other guy accumulating more penalties than points.

Only time will tell how effecacious the Golden Score can really be.


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