# Shinden Fudo Ryu- Karai Article



## 301stSpartan (Nov 5, 2006)

*Shinden Fudo Ryu,*
_The from the Heart, Explanation of how to Remain Unshakeable in Battle_ 

*Working with the One-handed lapel Grab, or Katate Mune Dori* 

These days, casual fans of the Japanese flipping and wrestling sport of judo expect the action to begin once the competitors come to grips with one another. Hands take hold of thickly quilted wrestling jackets and the excitement begins. To the more seasoned eye however, the decisive battle has already been won by the time that the competitors, known as judoka have secured their holds. Few people are aware of the significant drama that unfolds in just the initial seconds of a judo match. Even fewer realize the degree of influence in determining ultimate victory that the first contact of the players actually has. Judo, is an art of psychology, mechanics, and timing. These three aspects mix, mingle, and give rise to the infinite variety of movement combinations that make judo an entertaining delight to behold. 

New, inexperienced judo players are not yet sensitive to the fact that how a match transpires is hugely influenced by how it starts. In judo, the early stages of training presuppose that a mutual kumitai, standing position of engagement, exists between training partners before most upright exercises commence. This saves a lot of time and spares many potentially sprained fingers. At the same time, this training norm has created an inadvertently rare area of study; instruction on how to close with and dominate an opponent usually comes as the product of pure experience these days. 

As with any sport, judo has ruses, tricks, and tactics to ensure success. One such tactic involves detecting the path along which the opponent can be moved the easiest, inserting a fulcrum point along the way, and applying force in such a manner that a minimal amount of effort produces massive results. In order to apply this concept, the position of a judokas grip on his adversary is important. For the most part, the further away along the lever arm, from the fulcrum point, that force is applied, the better. Here, arises one of the seeming contradictions of judo. On the one hand, judoka seek to be very close to one another, which allows them to jockey for maximal physical balance. One the other hand, each judoka wishes to apply leverage force as far away from his fulcrum on the opponent as possible. This apparent contradiction very much makes judo like a physical game of chess. 

Strategies to both stalemate and dominate a match, center on the clever placement of the hands and arms. In any moment during a match, a judoka will have a primary grip, defined as such, because it is the point of contact that he has with his opponent that affords the most control over movement. As such, the primary grip is usually taken somewhere on the torso, whether it be on the lapel, at the shoulder, in the back of the collar, or even around the waist is not of consequence. The grip taken up by the judokas other hand is not classified as secondary, but complimentary. The arm sleeves, trouser cuffs, and collar, are all common places for this type of grip. 

It is advantageous for a judoka to secure a primary grip quickly in the match, such as grabbing the opponents left lapel with his right hand. A judoka can further such an early advantage by preventing the opponent from gaining a primary grip of his own. 

A host of tactics and ruses exist that allow the judoka to deny the opponent the opportunity to gain a firm grasp of him. When seizing an opponents lapel with the right hand, a judoka can often use his right elbow, to keep an opponents outside arm at bay. A judoka can also use his free left hand to prevent an opponent from gaining a controlling hold on his torso. A judoka in such a circumstance, controls the center of the match. 

In modern, sport judo, the battle for control of the center of a match usually unfolds with something resembling a fencing match, as opponents slap, tap, and jockey with their free arms. The judoka first to establish a grip on his opponent seeks to capitalize upon his advantage, by denying his adversary a useful hold on him. The other judoka tries to stabilize his situation in any way that he can. Without a primary grip established, he has no way to effectively control the distance between him and his opponent. If he steps too far away with his feet, hell be put off of balance, and quickly thrown. If he steps too close, hell be thrown by just the simplest of rotations. Perplexities, such as these are precisely the basis of judos allure. It is every bit a game of mental strategy as it is a sport of physical competition. 

The inspiration for the vast majority of judo technique was, of course, the martial arts. In its early days, judo was an activity partaken in mostly by people who had some form of systematic, combative training already under their belts. Training in late 1800s concerned itself with clarifying what was prohibited in a match, as much as it sought to educate participants on what they could do. The situation at the Kodokan was akin to someone setting up a marksmanship competition center in the Wild West. On a simple target range, a shooter does not need to fire from behind cover, because no one is shooting back at him. In judo, you do not need to wear gloves because no one should have razor blades concealed in their robes. 

Common knowledge of any ancestrally bequeathed combat strategy has faded now, and judos wild hombrés of yesteryear are long gone. Yet today, scores people routinely turn to the martial arts for insight into self-defense and personal protection, resulting in many heated conversations and much consternation. Sadly, the ability to put the knowledge that is available into context is what is most lacking. Thoughts like, If the most powerful people use it to fight in a cage for millions of dollars, it must be good enough for me. And, If I can avoid a three-foot razor blade, swung at me with someones entire bodyweight behind it, I can avoid most anything. are not uncommon at all. 

Lets say the opponent has closed in on you, and secured a grip on one of your lapels. In the opponents mind you are immediately limited in some manner. Whether or not you choose to agree with this is entirely up to you. You can act in a manner where the supposed limitation is not a factor at all. If you reach for his torso or head, you will be magnifying the limitation; you will be reaching with less than full control because of his grip on you. However, if you clearly assess the moment, you will see that all that he really has on you is a one-handed lapel grab. Work directly against this and you will once again be fighting without a disadvantage of balance, reach, or control. 

There are two other major dynamics that evolve into the one-handed lapel grab situation. The first is the break-away. This occurs whenever in the course of extremely close range fighting, you are able to break one arm free. In judo, this can occur when you voluntarily relinquish your primary grip, and break that arm completely free of the opponents reach. If you miss the opportunity to work against the opponents initial one-handed lapel grab, the break away can allow you to re-create another one-handed grabbing situation. 

The other one-handed grab dynamic that I will cover involves weapons. Here the opponent takes a hold of you, to limit your motions, so that he can bash, smash, or skewer you with some nasty weapon that he has in his free hand. Here again, working directly against the grab will give you more reliable results than trying to move straight into the path of a weapon, while he has some degree of control over you. 
It is important to note, that nowhere did I describe the scenario in which you are just standing still, when someone grabs your lapel and starts yanking you around. Yet, this is the scenario that everyone trains for. Dont do it, youll be missing the valuable advantages that knowing how to work with grabbing attacks can give you. 

I present below some of the ideas for training with the one-handed lapel grab scenario I have developed after training with some motions supposedly derived from the an old samurai jujutsu system known as Shinden Fudo Ryu.

*Shinden Fudo Ryu*, The from the heart explanation, of how to remain unshakeable in battle. 

*DakenTaiJutsu*, Unarmed fighting with striking as a primary focus 


*Traditional Fighting Example: Karai (Mist thunder) *

The Initial Situation:

*Attacker Actions:*
The opponent closes in to control and throw you. 

*Note:* The Shinden Fudo Ryu system of training contains specific experiences intended to impart a certain degree of familiarity with what it looks like to have an opponent close the distance, and try to throw you down. This fighting example goes beyond that and is intended to further sharpen your awareness of how this sort of attack unfolds. Karai involves direct work against the opponents initial, primary grab. You can also train with this example later in the fight; after you have been locked-up by the opponent in a judo-type, lapel-and-arm hold, break your right arm completely free, then practice the fighting concepts below. 

*Defender Actions:*
a. Cover the attackers lapel grabbing, right hand, with your left hand
*Note: *Your covering hand also works as a movement sensor. You can feel through your covering hand, whether the opponent is pushing, pulling, leaning, or twisting. Your sense of touch, allows you to detect these things much sooner than your sense of sight does. 

b. Step back with your left leg. 
*Note: *Here we are setting up the opportunity for the opponent to support himself more through his left arm and hand. 

c. Deliver a right punch to solar plexus. 
*Note: *This punch does two key things. First, it works in much the same way that a primary grip does, it keeps the opponent at a comfortable distance. Second, the sudden force from the punch, causes the opponent to subconsciously bend forward slightly. 

d. Grab the opponents right shoulder with your right hand. 
*Note: *You are seeking to establish a handle on the opponent here. Grab any clothing in his shoulder area. If he has no clothes, grab the muscles of his trapezius, or neck. You can even grab his right ear with your thumb pointed downward. 

e. Switch the position of your feet, then pull the opponent down onto his front.
*Note: *While you are establishing your grip on the opponents right shoulder, step forward and slightly to the left with your left foot. As soon as the left foot lands, step rearward with your right foot, squatting as you go. 

The leverage for the takedown is as follows: His right hand, on your lapel, is the primary fulcrum. His right arm is the lever arm, thus you want it to be straight and stiff. You pull strongly with your right hand on his right shoulder, as you step back and squat. This brings the opponent forward and down. 

f. Put your right knee on the nape of his neck, and your left knee on his spine, somewhere just below his shoulder blades. This position will allow you to keep his arm extended up between your legs as you kneel on him. 

g. Hyper extend his wrist and elbow, by facing his palm upward, while applying downward pressure on it. 

Some Important Variations to the Standard Karai Example: 


*Variation One: Alternate Arm Pin

*a. Cover the grabbing hand again. 

b. Instead of stepping back with your left leg, step forward and to the right with your right leg. 

c. Hit to the solar plexus and grab the attackers right shoulder with your right hand again. 

d. Step back with your right foot, pulling the opponent down. 

e. This time, instead of keeping the opponents arm straight for hyper-extension, fold the arm at the elbow. 

f. When you have the opponent down and pinned with both of your knees, his arm will be twisted behind him, in a sort of hammer lock. 

g. Reach across his body to secure his other arm. Continue to apply pressure to his spine at the neck and below the shoulder blades. 


*Variation Two: To Keep Further Away from His Left Arm 
*
a. Now well cover his right grabbing hand, using our left hand. 
*Note: *It is important here to cover from the top. In other words, your left hand circles counter-clockwise, allowing your palm to come to rest on the back of his hand, and your finger tips to surround his thumb. 

b. Step forward and slightly left with your left foot. 

c. The special feature of this variation is what comes next; four sequential actions with your right arm. 

1. First, swing your entire right arm clockwise. As you come over the top of the circle, deliver your right elbow smash to the elbow joint of the attackers extended right arm. 
2. Your right arm continues through the target.
3. Next, strike forward with a clenched fist to the opponents solar plexus. 
4. Follow this with a right elbow strike to the lower right zone of his torso. 
d. Now, grab the opponents right shoulder. 

e. Pull him down while stepping backwards with your left foot. Pull his right arm out straight to your left to prevent him from rotating. 
*Note:* The angle of the takedown is different this time. The opponent is brought down somewhat sideways. You use your left-handed grip on his right arm to steer his torso into the proper front-downward position, as he falls. 

f. Secure both of his arms, like before. 

g. Once again, attack his spine with your knees. 



*Recommended Training: 

*Engage in free exchange training (randori). When the opponent tries to secure a hold on you, seek to apply Karai immediately. If you are unsuccessful, break your right arm free, and attempt Karai again. Remember, Karai takes an opponent down in a forward direction. So basically you have three variations of how to work against an opponents primary grip. But you can train with these from both the initial contact and from the break away situation, which gives you six options to train on. This doubles when you consider both the right and left sides, for a grand total of a dozen training opportunities for you and your partner.

Thoroughly practice the Karai fighting example and the variations that I have mentioned. Even though you are engaging in randori, it is important that you stick to the specifics of the techniques. You can not learn as quickly, if you are constantly inserting unknown variables into the equation. You can pressure test you understanding of the karai strategy by trying to seamlessly insert it into a match against any unsuspecting judoka.


Wishing you best luck and good training,


Vern Jeffery


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## furyu (Nov 6, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> *Shinden Fudo Ryu,*
> _The from the Heart, Explanation of how to Remain Unshakeable in Battle_
> 
> Thoroughly practice the Karai fighting example and the variations that I have mentioned. Even though you are engaging in randori, it is important that you stick to the specifics of the techniques. You can not learn as quickly, if you are constantly inserting unknown variables into the equation. You can pressure test you understanding of the karai strategy by trying to seamlessly insert it into a match against any unsuspecting judoka.
> ...


 
I am not sure why you had to double post this in both the subforums of the Ninjutsu forum here.... Also, don't take this post as a personal attack. It is a commentary that your post has created the opening for.

I have only quoted part of this post but I will comment on the non quoted portions as well as the section above. First, the technique you describe is a very vague approximation of the densho form of the technique. The variations that you list are nowhere near what the official henka of the kata Karai are. 

How do you know what Shinden Fudo Ryu is? Have you been taught the formal techniques? In the dakentaijutsu section of the densho there are 2 official henka for each kata. It is different for the jutaijutsu section and different still for the other sections (hmm). The henka are part of the form, to help you capture the essence of the kata. Contrary to popular practice, doing whatever the hell you want is not the correct way to understand the arts of the Bujinkan. Studying the kata, history and most importantly, training with someone who has been fully instructed in the school(s) is the way to understand the arts of the Bujinkan. How many of us can say that we have done that? (I do not put myself in that class either - which is why I don't post on the internet about why this Ryu or that Ryu is all about). 

Personal training notes should probably stay that way...

Matt


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## 301stSpartan (Nov 6, 2006)

Mr. Hildreth,

You are absolutely right. I agree with you completely. My intention in making this post does not have anything to do with trying to understand the Bujinkan arts. I just wanted to give readers, who may be on their own, some food for thought on how they could take a concept such as the one I have illustrated and train with it.

I really don't know the first thing about Shinden Fudo Ryu.

I have posted in both Ninjutsu sub-forums because I wanted Stephen's people to read my post as well.

Best regards,

Vern


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## 301stSpartan (Nov 6, 2006)

As I think about it, the reason that I have decided to spend my time posting on the Martial Talk forums at all, and in the ninjutsu forums in particular, is that it really irks me that so much effort and electronic ink is spent trying to iron out all of the esoterica of the martial arts and a lot less effort is spent on discussing actual ways to train and study.

Who really cares what the official henka to the kata Unryu is?

Who really cares who was in the dojo of Ueno Takashi Sensei in 1955.

Who really cares if the Bujinkan has the last historically traceable ninjutsu ryus in its curriculum?

Much more important questions to ask yourself are, "What does this all mean to me?" and "How can I use all of this?"

The trick to ninjutsu is three fold: Have a good heart, work hard, and keep going. It is just that simple.

Ninjutsu is a really screwy thing in that it is very easy to find yourself putting a tremendous effort into the smallest of its details and then to suddenly realize that you are way off track from where you need to be.

My advice is to always ask yourself where you need to be.

Best regards,

Vern Jeffery


Oh! One more thing: Please do not try to pull ninja rank on me. I couldn't care less if you are a 15th Dan or the Pope.


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## bydand (Nov 6, 2006)

There is a hell of a way to start out.


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## Bigshadow (Nov 6, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> As I think about it, the reason that I have decided to spend my time posting on the Martial Talk forums at all, and in the ninjutsu forums in particular, is that it really irks me that so much effort and electronic ink is spent trying to iron out all of the esoterica of the martial arts and a lot less effort is spent on discussing actual ways to train and study.



That is simply not true!  There is quite a bit of information on MT regarding actual ways to train and study.  Actually you won't find many of the regulars here discussing the esoteric parts of ninjutsu.  What you see is many first time or new posters asking the same old questions over and over again and other first time or new posters who have some agenda or point to prove and starts of with a heated thread, much like you see here   However, if one would take the time to dig through the threads, there are alot of nuggets of gold buried here on MT, many of which are training related.  



301stSpartan said:


> Oh! One more thing: Please do not try to pull ninja rank on me. I couldn't care less if you are a 15th Dan or the Pope.



No body is trying to pull ninja rank.  However, what you are asking readers of this thread to do is trust that you are in fact qualified to dole out advice to everyone and at the same time you don't want anyone else to speak from a position of authority?

There are many here that are well qualified to spar you with words regarding Shinden Fudo Ryu (although I am not one of them).

You really should relax a little, get to know the good folks here and not make an *** of yourself right out of the gate.  Nothing wrong with constructive criticism.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 6, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> That is simply not true! There is quite a bit of information on MT regarding actual ways to train and study. Actually you won't find many of the regulars here discussing the esoteric parts of ninjutsu. What you see is many first time or new posters asking the same old questions over and over again and other first time or new posters who have some agenda or point to prove and starts of with a heated thread, much like you see here  However, if one would take the time to dig through the threads, there are alot of nuggets of gold buried here on MT, many of which are training related.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Many good points in this post that bear reading through. 

I would advise that you get to know people here as well and also do some back reading in the Traditional Ninjutsu forum.  I think you will find quite a bit of good information and lots of video clips to peruse as well.  Good luck.


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## Don Roley (Nov 7, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> Who really cares what the official henka to the kata Unryu is?
> 
> Who really cares who was in the dojo of Ueno Takashi Sensei in 1955.
> 
> ...



Who are you to try to tell us what we should and should not discuss on an internet forum?

I tend to do more things involving taijutsu in actual practice, not - line. The stuff I do on- line is the type of thing you would talk about after class. I like talking about history with other  folks on- line. If I did not want to talk about it, I would spend less time here and more time practicing. Or I would just watch TV.

You may not like discussions about Ueno Takashi or how many official henka there are, but who are you to tell others that they should not talk about things like that? If someone tried to do the same thing to you, wouldn't you accuse them of being arrogent and controlling?

If you don't like discussiong like that, then don't read them. But let other people talk about what they want to talk about. Their conversations have no impact on you. If they spread bad information, then you might jump in and I would understand. But to try to tell people that that they should not talk about something just because you don't think it is something _in your opinion_ is important enough is just unbelievable.

Despite this, I welcome you to martialtalk. I hope you learn a bit and your experience here at martialtalk is more productive than the disaster that surrounded your posts over at Kutaki. If you change your attitude, I am sure we will not see a repeat of that mess.


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## Bigshadow (Nov 7, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> I hope you learn a bit and your experience here at martialtalk is more productive than the disaster that surrounded your posts over at Kutaki.



I must have missed that over on Kutaki, I am a member there too.


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## Bigshadow (Nov 7, 2006)

My previous post brings something to mind...  For what it is worth...  There are a lot of folks here and on our competitor's board who are also members of the Bujinkan who also read and post on Kutaki.  Some are very knowledgable and are an excellent source of information.  I am sure here, there, or in person, you will get the same answer from them regarding Bujinkan and it's training. 



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I tend to do more things involving taijutsu in actual practice, not - line. The stuff I do on- line is the type of thing you would talk about after class. I like talking about history with other folks on- line. If I did not want to talk about it, I would spend less time here and more time practicing. Or I would just watch TV.



I agree!  I could always watch TV, but that wouldn't be as interesting.


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## 301stSpartan (Nov 7, 2006)

Please accept my apologies for my tone. I agree that everyone should be able to write and post about anything that they want to. 

I seem to have a problem communicating properly with people on these Internet forums. I did make an *** of myself on Kutaki. I apologize for that as well.

Don Roleys point that he uses the forum to discuss the types of things that one normally talks about after class is well taken. The Internet seems ideal for that. As a kid, there was not a lot of people I could talk with after class, nowadays we have access to this global dojo via the web. In actuality, I enjoy researching the historical details of the martial arts too. In fact, one of my few threads on Kutaki was to inquire about some of the historical details surrounding Takamatsu Sensei. 

Of course, there are a lot of threads on Martial Talk dedicated to training methods and practices, I simply miss spoke on this point.

I mentioned the rank pulling thing because over on Kutaki I suddenly had high ranking people being short with me through their computers. My take away was that these people simply were not interested in thinking about the questions that I had poised or discussing martial arts training openly. Here at martial talk, I make one post and suddenly someone is pointing out that my description of the example kata in my article basically sucks and my Henka are atrocious. -- Well ok, points taken. 

Once again, I apologize for how I got my ball rolling here.

Moving on, would anyone be interested in discussing Ninjutsu/Ninpo related subjects along a separate tangent from the formal Dojo-style training?

By this I mean things like the physical conditioning that the ninja were legendary for, progressive training protocols to allow a person to succeed in a live fight, and open discussions of possible, alternative lessons that can be extracted from the formal training information.

Best regards,

Vern Jeffery


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## Kreth (Nov 7, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> Here at martial talk, I make one post and suddenly someone is pointing out that my description of the example kata in my article basically sucks and my Henka are atrocious. -- Well ok, points taken.


The title of your original post(s) gives the impression that you are describing the actual kata, not your interpretation thereof. Hence the flak, from people who are in a position to know.


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## 301stSpartan (Nov 7, 2006)

Jeff,

I can see what you mean.  Most of my post is not about Karai at all.  I should have made the title something like, "Seeing the Opportunity to Work Against a One-handed Grab", or something along those lines.


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## Bigshadow (Nov 7, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> Moving on, would anyone be interested in discussing Ninjutsu/Ninpo related subjects along a separate tangent from the formal Dojo-style training?
> 
> By this I mean things like the physical conditioning that the ninja were legendary for, progressive training protocols to allow a person to succeed in a live fight, and open discussions of possible, alternative lessons that can be extracted from the formal training information.




Certainly!  Just ask specific question to open of a discussion.  Maybe start a few threads with the questions.  Many of us who are serious about our training do enjoy discussing our art.  Just keep in mind, there are many things that are best described by feeling it and other things can be discussed (like the after class discussions).


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## furyu (Nov 7, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I can see what you mean. Most of my post is not about Karai at all. I should have made the title something like, "Seeing the Opportunity to Work Against a One-handed Grab", or something along those lines.


 
That may have been a better way to approach the subject.



301stSpartan said:


> Here at martial talk, I make one post and suddenly someone is pointing out that my description of the example kata in my article basically sucks and my Henka are atrocious.


As I said in my original post, I was not attacking you personally. 
I made no mention about the efficacy of your variations. The points you mentioned are fine. 



301stSpartan said:


> Oh! One more thing: Please do not try to pull ninja rank on me. I couldn't care less if you are a 15th Dan or the Pope.


Not sure why this came into play. I never mentioned my rank. 

Anyhow, my point was made in my original post.

No worries...

Matt


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 7, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> Please accept my apologies for my tone. I agree that everyone should be able to write and post about anything that they want to.
> 
> I seem to have a problem communicating properly with people on these Internet forums. I did make an *** of myself on Kutaki. I apologize for that as well.
> 
> ...


 
Good post Vern and we are happy to have you here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Please start a new thread regarding progressive training in Budo Taijutsu.  Thanks for posting.


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## jks9199 (Nov 7, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> Please accept my apologies for my tone. I agree that everyone should be able to write and post about anything that they want to.
> 
> I seem to have a problem communicating properly with people on these Internet forums. I did make an *** of myself on Kutaki. I apologize for that as well.
> 
> ...



Your original post was pretty well written, and it's clear you spent a fair amount of time in writing it -- but it also came across in a way that read as a pronouncement from on high about how to practice.  I don't train in the Bujinkan or any of the related schools; quite simply, I was fascinated by ninjutsu in the '80s, and find the discussion and information here interesting.  The Bujinkan taijustu practitioners here tend to be pretty gracious in their responses to "outsiders" like me, and I find some of their discussions enlightening about my own style (or how people relate to each other within a martial art).  

One of the drawbacks about internet discussion groups is that they lack all the tones of voice and non-verbal communication that would go on if we all ended up in a bar together, and happened to discover this common martial art interest.  Smilies and emoticons can help.  It can also help if you're offering solid information if you take a moment when you're new to a forum and share something of your background.  For example, I've been training in one system (not, as I've mentioned Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu) for over 20 years.  Another thing that saves time is to review the existing threads and especially the "stickies" that are posted at the top of a forum, and don't go away.  Sometimes, you'll find an answer or explanation there.

But it also helps if you can take criticism/advice well, and respond positively, as you've done here.

I hope you enjoy MartialTalk.


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## 301stSpartan (Nov 7, 2006)

Thank you all for your kind and accepting words. Mr. Hildreth, I apologize to you directly. I realize that you stated that your response to me was not a personal attack. 

I agree that I just need to relax a bit with the preacher on a stump style of presenting information that I started with.

Mr. VanCise, you seem to be a great guy. Thank you for your patience with me. Although I am no expert on Budo Taijutsu, I would be happy to start a thread where we can all discuss different processes and training progressions that can be used to compliment training. For example, we could discuss a multi-tiered drill progression that I have found helps a person to manage the stress and anxiety associated with fighting, or we could discuss a step-by-step protocol for introducing more unpredictability and non-compliance by the uke during training.


Until next time,
Vern Jeffery


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## Koinu (Nov 7, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> we could discuss a step-by-step protocol for introducing more unpredictability and non-compliance by the uke during training.Vern Jeffery




This is quite an interesting statement. This should be a part of all normal training ! If you are training (both Uke Tori) in the correct manner this dynamic should exist within the confines of any normal training session. This does not mean that attacks that are not part of the Tec as shown by the instructor are added (as this is Randori and unless you are instructed to practice randori you should not ! ) or that there should be this constant physical resistance etc. What it means is both the Uke and Tori changing things in subtle ways like distance timing angels etc etc so even though you know what the Tec is you don't know what is is going to be the next time.
As for non compliance on the part on the Uke ( I would say Uke & TORI ) you should never give them anything they MUST take it from you or lost and if they give it back you must be willing to receive it back to allow them to understand their mistake (if it is a mistake and not Kyojutsu on their part). Ukemi however should never be taken you should have no choice but to use it due to the danger you face by not doing so. Many people seem to also be mistaken in believing that because openings are there that some mistake or incorrectness has resulted. Some (if not all ) tec's imho have opening by design but as you are not working on that part of that tec they may seem exploitable but if seen as a whole are just traps for young players. I had a guy I was training with once say OH I found an opening. I said ok attack me though it when ever you like. He did at speed and when he picked himself up of the floor rubbing his jaw after my elbow exploited the opening he created by attacking the opening he though was there he found that he was not so correct about that opening existing !


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## Bigshadow (Nov 7, 2006)

Koinu said:


> Many people seem to also be mistaken in believing that because openings are there that some mistake or incorrectness has resulted.



This happens alot when going slow with those who have had little training.  The slow speed is deceiving.  They tend to think they get there if they move twice the tori's speed in the middle somewhere.


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## Don Roley (Nov 10, 2006)

301stSpartan said:


> Most of my post is not about Karai at all.  I should have made the title something like, "Seeing the Opportunity to Work Against a One-handed Grab", or something along those lines.



Yes, that would have been best. If you had created a thread with that title and posted it in the general defense section, then there would have been people that agreed as well as people who disagreed with what you write. The discussion that went on would have been interesting.

But when you give a specific name to something and post it in a particular section, then you open yourself up to meeting that standard. In this case, what is Karai and what is the process of learning kata like it.

If you had given a judo name for something and not met the standards of the kodokan, you would be facing the same problem from a different group of members. But in the sections where you just talk about general things, no one gives you grief. But in sections where there are set standards for terms and such, the discussion is a bit more exact.

If you remember this, then we can have good discussions and learn from each other. Just don't use terms unless you meet the definitions of those that use them.


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