# Is American Kenpo Fake?



## JKDJade (Nov 1, 2020)

Wait up y'all...before you guys start bashing. Let's talk about this and ponder.

I've studied Kenpo, both Parker and Tracy...long enough to go from wow, look at my cool black gi and patches, man I'm the next American Ninja...then to went to...him this is cool, these moves are so deadly, I can't use it all in a tournament and my sensi is a bad ***, so bad *** he can take on multiple people in a bar fight will texting...then went, well, these moves are ok, but will they really work? Then went to question them and restudy them....pressure test and reapply...then went...hmmm, well they don't all work, but I still look cool in my black GI and my strikes are fast now, maybe I didn't waste all my time and money.

Then went, f#$% these katas and...let me just box, kick and grapple...then went...let me reexamine Kenpo, then went, yea maybe I'll try some Kung Fu (southern fist) hey this is cool...let me try black tiger kung fu...hey this cool...wait a minute..wasnt't my kenpo supposed to be Kung Fu...or quanfa...neither of these looked like my Kenpo...then went, wait minute, what was the whole point of my kenpo journey? Then went, will I entered not being able to move or strike... hmm I can do that now.. and pretty decent. Bullshido or not, maybe it wasn't so bad.


My point is we have an art that is based on some dude named Mitose, who has a shady background, and other named Chow, whose background seems a little more solid, but has lots of gaps...then you add in Parker, who let's face it was more business man than martial artist, who put together a curriculum that is supposedly a mix of Japanese and Chinese systems...but is it? I mean, yes a block is a block, a punch a punch, and kick a kick, but is American Kenpo really based off Japanese and Chinese systems, perhaps, but to what degree?

If we took out the Japanese techniques out of American Kenpo, how much would be left? And from what is left, how much is truly quanfa, and how much is parker bullshido?

Similarly, if we took out the quanfa/kung fu out of American Kenpo, what would remain? And from what is left, how much is OK Karate, and how much is Parker Bullshido.

I don't know gents, take basic strikes, stances, and holds, and blocks out of the system, and you have 200 and something techniques. Some are decent, other very questionable.

Anyways, what are peoples thoughts on this? And yes, before someone says, aren't all MA fake? I mean, at some point, some dude said hey, look at that tiger...now check this out, this is called a tiger claw and hit his buddy ..of course after recovering from the tiger claw strike, his friend watched a snake kill a rat...and a few days alter retaliated with a snake finger strike to his freind's throat..and bam kung fu was born haha.


BTW I am convinced if Parker was creating kenpo, say not 1960-1980, but let's say 2000's, we would all be on this forum calling it Bullshido. Especially since Parker would not look good in MMA shorts...I don't think anyone would have even taken the dude seriously, and we certainly would not be taking his friend/former friend in his checkered GI seriously either,..btw has anyone actually seen Al Tracy's son in his Florida dojo... if that guy couldnt turn his son into a proper fighter/martial artist...why would anyone trust his style.

CHANGE MY MIND.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 1, 2020)

I’m not here to change your mind.  Your mind is made up.  And that’s fine.

Some people find it very useful and valuable.  Others do not.  As is true with most things in life. 

I’m an ex-Tracy Kenpo guy and I recognize the issues you raise (some, anyways, while others don’t strike me as relevant).  In the end I went in a different direction and left Kenpo.  But that’s me.  Others feel differently.

Your mileage may vary.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 1, 2020)

Parker's system was definitely karate (with a Polynesian flavor) with a lot of speedy, close-in techniques.   In some ways it resembled original Okinawan style in this respect, along with stress on leg checks/attacks and simultaneous defense and offense.  At the time, (1970's) this was innovative in karate as it was then practiced in Japan and the West.  (This gap has closed over the last decade or two as the original Okinawan style has been "rediscovered.")

His kenpo was very systemized/organized (which aided his business model) and taught many solid concepts in biomechanics and tactics.  While the validity of Parker's lineage has long been suspect, and he was definitely a business oriented promoter, he was a physical force to be reckoned with.  His personal technique was not pretty, but I have been struck by him several times and I can attest to his surprising speed and power.  His early students were successful competitors and excellent technicians.

 There were a number of people who did not care for his personality / ego (which I fully understand) but to call the style fake or bullshido is, I think, inaccurate.     *Note - my kenpo experience is from the 70's and it may be that more recent instructors have degraded the system - I cannot speak to that.  I can speak to the fact that his patch was very cool and he would not, indeed, look good in MMA shorts.


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## JKDJade (Nov 2, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Parker's system was definitely karate (with a Polynesian flavor) with a lot of speedy, close-in techniques.   In some ways it resembled original Okinawan style in this respect, along with stress on leg checks/attacks and simultaneous defense and offense.  At the time, (1970's) this was innovative in karate as it was then practiced in Japan and the West.  (This gap has closed over the last decade or two as the original Okinawan style has been "rediscovered.")
> 
> His kenpo was very systemized/organized (which aided his business model) and taught many solid concepts in biomechanics and tactics.  While the validity of Parker's lineage has long been suspect, and he was definitely a business oriented promoter, he was a physical force to be reckoned with.  His personal technique was not pretty, but I have been struck by him several times and I can attest to his surprising speed and power.  His early students were successful competitors and excellent technicians.
> 
> There were a number of people who did not care for his personality / ego (which I fully understand) but to call the style fake or bullshido is, I think, inaccurate.     *Note - my kenpo experience is from the 70's and it may be that more recent instructors have degraded the system - I cannot speak to that.  I can speak to the fact that his patch was very cool and he would not, indeed, look good in MMA shorts.




Great points...I have some sort of respect for the man. He did create a good business model. He codify a system that outlasted his own time on earth. His style has created some good fighters and good martial artists over the years. My issue is two fold:
1. The origins of his art. When I read, "Mr Parker studied Kung Fu and added the circular motion of kung fu into his art ". Really, what style of Kung Fu, what linage, which master? Anyways you get the point. 
2. In today's society we are quick to judge and an opportunist like Parker, would have never been able to create a system, as we would have laughed him. Maybe the joke is on us, maybe its not 

Although today we have our fair share of Parkers ie, Youtube Martial Art masters..insert names here (Karate Nerd...Sensei Seth...Jake Mace... Freddie Lee....)


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## punisher73 (Nov 2, 2020)

Let's go back in time to when it was first "created".

Parker spent a LOT of time on basics and getting those down and making them functional.  Then you started to learn all of the techniques.  He created a business model to attract students and most jumped right into the techniques without the basics to make them functional.  

Now, lets use another example to show why it isn't "fake" or "bullshido".  BJJ has been shown to be effective by a lot of people.  BUT, lets say that the new Machado model that he uses to train "Hollywood" people that really limits the hard training so they don't get boo-boos and that becomes super widespread and everyone starts to train in that method.  No takedowns so you don't have to learn to fall, everything starts from the knees and no experience in dealing with strikes and more serious techniques are removed to prevent injury.  

Would you look to BJJ's roots and its effectiveness or look to the "new version" of it and say that it is "fake"?

Same thing with a lot of martial arts.  They were created by people who knew how to fight and apply their art, then as it became more popular it became watered down to market it and make money.  If you look at a kenpo "offshoot" like Kajukenbo, those guys are still known for their fighting because they have kept it small and the quality high.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 2, 2020)

JKDJade said:


> 1. The origins of his art. When I read, "Mr Parker studied Kung Fu and added the circular motion of kung fu into his art ". Really, what style of Kung Fu, what linage, which master? Anyways you get the point.



James Woo (not James Wing Woo of Shuai jiau, he is a different fellow) and Ark Yuey Wong, both in Los Angeles.  In Ark Wong’s school is where Mr. Parker met Danny Inosanto.

Information about both fellows can be readily found on the internet, and both were well known in the Chinese martial arts community.


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## JKDJade (Nov 3, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Let's go back in time to when it was first "created".
> 
> Parker spent a LOT of time on basics and getting those down and making them functional.  Then you started to learn all of the techniques.  He created a business model to attract students and most jumped right into the techniques without the basics to make them functional.
> 
> ...



Good points and agree with you on Kajukenbo.


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## Rusty B (Nov 10, 2020)

I have no experience with kenpo, however, it never interested me as I've heard that it's specifically designed to evolve on an individual basis... and, as a result, no two kenpo schools are alike.  I suppose that doesn't matter to some people, and it does to others.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Nov 22, 2020)

Kenpo aint fake its very usefull remeber kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day street fighting it apply logic and practically its also a thinking art


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## Rusty B (Nov 22, 2020)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Kenpo aint fake its very usefull remeber kenpo karate is an *updated system based on modern day street fighting it apply logic and practically its also a thinking art*



Look man, no disrespect to you or Kenpo... but I gotta throw the BS flag whenever I hear this type of claim.

What could possibly happen to you now, that couldn't have happened to you in the days of Gichin Funakoshi and Kano Jigoro?

Cutting and stabbing weapons, melee weapons, and guns existed back then too.  Take out the guns, and every possible armed and unarmed scenario you could think of were experienced by homo erectus.

"Modern-day street fighting?"  As opposed to what?

That phrase seems to be made up - as a marketing ploy to generate demand.


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## Rusty B (Nov 22, 2020)

What's funny is that, if a local martial arts school that try to sell surviving "modern-day street fighting" had a commercial on TV... I think I could picture exactly how it would look:

It would start with a clip from a Bruce Lee movie taking place in China while it was occupied by Japan, and then you hear the caption "This may have worked back then, but today... you're going to need THIS!"

Then it cuts to the scene where someone practicing the art taught by that dojo is beating up a group of thugs in 2020.

To most people, this ad would be convincing.  To the critical thinker, the only difference between the two scenarios is that the guys in 2020 are wearing jeans and Nikes and there's bunch of graffiti all over the buildings in the background.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 22, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Look man, no disrespect to you or Kenpo... but I gotta throw the BS flag whenever I hear this type of claim.
> T
> What could possibly happen to you now, that couldn't have happened to you in the days of Gichin Funakoshi and Kano Jigoro?
> 
> ...



The difference is this - Back in the old days, martial arts was not generally taught to thugs and other commoners, so few had any formal fighting instruction.  Additionally, there were no movies, YouTube, or TV, so even this informal instruction was not available.  Nowadays, more of those one might have to fight have access to seeing and learning fighting techniques and have the ability to practice them at a school or home or gang crib.  Therefore, a higher percentage of potential attackers have martial training and ability than in the past.   Kenpo is a quick, efficient style that has the capability of handling this situation, as do several other styles.  Of course, as often previously discussed, the individual's skill and fighting spirit are paramount.


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## Rusty B (Nov 22, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> The difference is this - Back in the old days, martial arts was not generally taught to thugs and other commoners, so few had any formal fighting instruction.  Additionally, there were no movies, YouTube, or TV, so even this informal instruction was not available.  Nowadays, more of those one might have to fight have access to seeing and learning fighting techniques and have the ability to practice them at a school or home or gang crib.  Therefore, a higher percentage of potential attackers have martial training and ability than in the past.   Kenpo is a quick, efficient style that has the capability of handling this situation, as do several other styles.  Of course, as often previously discussed, the individual's skill and fighting spirit are paramount.



LOL, you can't be serious.  If your argument is "they didn't see it on TV back then," or "your common street thug is a martial artist now," then you really need to do some deep thinking on who you think the idiot is.

Not only are your claims false, but they would be meaningless even if they were true.


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> What's funny is that, if a local martial arts school that try to sell surviving "modern-day street fighting" had a commercial on TV... I think I could picture exactly how it would look:
> 
> It would start with a clip from a Bruce Lee movie taking place in China while it was occupied by Japan, and then you hear the caption "This may have worked back then, but today... you're going to need THIS!"
> 
> ...







__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=872850496484183


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> The difference is this - Back in the old days, martial arts was not generally taught to thugs and other commoners, so few had any formal fighting instruction.  Additionally, there were no movies, YouTube, or TV, so even this informal instruction was not available.  Nowadays, more of those one might have to fight have access to seeing and learning fighting techniques and have the ability to practice them at a school or home or gang crib.  Therefore, a higher percentage of potential attackers have martial training and ability than in the past.   Kenpo is a quick, efficient style that has the capability of handling this situation, as do several other styles.  Of course, as often previously discussed, the individual's skill and fighting spirit are paramount.



Martial arts has a big history of being taught to thugs and commoners.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Martial arts has a big history of being taught to thugs and commoners.



Yep, for western boxing... if you look up the history of any fighter from Mike Tyson's generation or earlier (and we're talking going over a century back)... odds are, they've had some run-ins with the law.

Hell, some have even had run-ins with the law after their career was over - such as Peter McNeeley and Hector Camacho.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

Another thing I'd like to add... even if it was true that the common thug had a martial arts background (a statement that is completely wrong, and laughably so) who are you doing kumite/sparring with at the dojo?  Now if your head sensei is paying homeless guys to come in and spar with you, I could see this argument having some merit.  Otherwise, all martial artists are trained to fight other martial artists.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 23, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Another thing I'd like to add... even if it was true that the common thug had a martial arts background (a statement that is completely wrong, and laughably so) who are you doing kumite/sparring with at the dojo?  Now if your head sensei is paying homeless guys to come in and spar with you, I could see this argument having some merit.  Otherwise, all martial artists are trained to fight other martial artists.


Wait..you're saying you don't have random homeless people come into your dojo to spar with you? Let me guess, you guys aren't even using dirty/bloody knives when you spar as well?


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Wait..you're saying you don't have random homeless people come into your dojo to spar with you? Let me guess, you guys aren't even using dirty/bloody knives when you spar as well?



You mean I'm being ripped off?  Dammit, I hate it when that happens!


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## punisher73 (Nov 23, 2020)

This has been a discussion before on what being "trained" means.  Many career criminals practice and train techniques that have worked for them even though they have no "formal training" of going to a school.  There are various videos online showing inmates in prison gathering and practicing various techniques of coming off a wall during a patdown search or various disarming techniques.  There is also the practice of "slap fighting" used by many to practice their hand techniques that is a form of sparring. 

But, as to the "updated" streetfighting for "todays methods".  Again, I view it as a marketing fad.  About the only difference would be that the original karate was designed as a "civilian self-defense" model and did not take into account professional soldiers using it (sorry to bust the myth on using karate on the ancient battlefield) or agreed upon ego conflicts.  It was designed for someone to put a big hurt on someone and injure them or maim them to get away since there was no real "law" when they would be traveling in between villages.

If you are going to "update" your self defense model, it should be reflected in things like de-escalation techniques and postures, understanding verbal set ups by criminals, utilizing less lethal methods than eye-gouges etc.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> There are various videos online showing inmates in prison gathering and practicing various techniques of coming off a wall during a patdown search or various disarming techniques.



This actually IS a martial art.  It's called jailhouse rock.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

@isshinryuronin , did you agree with what @punisher73 just said?  You know that what he said is as equally citical as my comments on what you said, right?

Looks like you're issue with me is personal.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 23, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> @isshinryuronin , did you agree with what @punisher73 just said?  You know that what he said is as equally citical as my comments on what you said, right?
> 
> Looks like you're issue with me is personal.



Yes, I agree with him that even jailed criminals can informally learn MA (this was clearly one of my points).
And I agree with him that original karate was designed for civil defense, not warfare.
I also agree that de-escalation techniques are good.

Clearly in these modern times, people have a greater access to information (including MA) than before.  What I don't agree with is how you can state my posting is personal against you?  Your attitude is baseless and leads me to believe you think way to much of yourself.

However, I did take your advise and did some "thinking on who I think the idiot is."  Didn't have to think too deep, though, to know it isn't me.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Yes, I agree with him that even jailed criminals can informally learn MA (this was clearly one of my points).
> And I agree with him that original karate was designed for civil defense, not warfare.
> I also agree that de-escalation techniques are good.
> 
> Clearly in these modern times, people have a greater access to information (including MA) than before.  What I don't agree with is how you can state my posting is personal against you?  Your attitude is baseless and leads me to believe you think way to much of yourself.



He also said that the concept of a martial art being updated for modern day street fighting is a marketing ploy... yet, not only did you not bring any smoke to him, but you agreed with it.



> However, I did take your advise and did some "thinking on who I think the idiot is."  Didn't have to think too deep, though, to know it isn't me.



You'd better think deeper about that if you can claim with a straight face that a man is more dangerous because he watched a Chuck Norris flick last night.


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## Steve (Nov 23, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> The difference is this - Back in the old days, martial arts was not generally taught to thugs and other commoners, so few had any formal fighting instruction.  Additionally, there were no movies, YouTube, or TV, so even this informal instruction was not available.  Nowadays, more of those one might have to fight have access to seeing and learning fighting techniques and have the ability to practice them at a school or home or gang crib.  Therefore, a higher percentage of potential attackers have martial training and ability than in the past.   Kenpo is a quick, efficient style that has the capability of handling this situation, as do several other styles.  Of course, as often previously discussed, the individual's skill and fighting spirit are paramount.


Is this something you think is true, or is it something that is independently verifiable?  It sounds a little far fetched to me.  

First, you say that bad guys train in martial arts more now than in the past.  Do you have any evidence to support that?
Also, are you saying that bad guys didn't know how to fight because they didn't have a formal training regimen?  Because that's a logical leap.
Are you saying that formal training is better than informal training?  Again, I'd say that's debatable, at least. 

More than anything, I'm not understanding the conclusion.  I mean, let's say that your assertions are accurate... that bad guys today receive more formal training than the bad guys of the past.  So, presumably, they are better trained and more capable.  Are you suggesting that they aren't training in Kenpo?


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## Buka (Nov 23, 2020)

JKDJade said:


> Wait up y'all...before you guys start bashing. Let's talk about this and ponder.
> 
> I've studied Kenpo, both Parker and Tracy...long enough to go from wow, look at my cool black gi and patches, man I'm the next American Ninja...then to went to...him this is cool, these moves are so deadly, I can't use it all in a tournament and my sensi is a bad ***, so bad *** he can take on multiple people in a bar fight will texting...then went, well, these moves are ok, but will they really work? Then went to question them and restudy them....pressure test and reapply...then went...hmmm, well they don't all work, but I still look cool in my black GI and my strikes are fast now, maybe I didn't waste all my time and money.
> 
> ...





JKDJade said:


> Wait up y'all...before you guys start bashing. Let's talk about this and ponder.
> 
> I've studied Kenpo, both Parker and Tracy...long enough to go from wow, look at my cool black gi and patches, man I'm the next American Ninja...then to went to...him this is cool, these moves are so deadly, I can't use it all in a tournament and my sensi is a bad ***, so bad *** he can take on multiple people in a bar fight will texting...then went, well, these moves are ok, but will they really work? Then went to question them and restudy them....pressure test and reapply...then went...hmmm, well they don't all work, but I still look cool in my black GI and my strikes are fast now, maybe I didn't waste all my time and money.
> 
> ...



I'm not going to try and change your mind, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I liked Ed Parker a great deal. He did a lot for me and a lot of folks I know. And we weren't even his students. He didn't have to do any of that, but he did. I think you would have liked him.

And he could fight like a son of a *****.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

Buka said:


> And he could fight like a son of a *****.



Only speaking for myself, that part is not in question for me; nor whether or not kenpo is legit or effective.

What IS in question is whether or not there is anything now, that didn't exist a century ago, that a martial art can be updated to take into account.

Other than ludicrous claims that people are more dangerous because they saw some kung fu on TV, or "everybody" is taking martial arts these days (which wouldn't matter, because you spar with your fellow martial artists at the dojo anyway)... I still have yet to see an answer.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 23, 2020)

Steve said:


> Is this something you think is true, or is it something that is independently verifiable?  It sounds a little far fetched to me.
> 
> First, you say that bad guys train in martial arts more now than in the past.  Do you have any evidence to support that?
> Also, are you saying that bad guys didn't know how to fight because they didn't have a formal training regimen?  Because that's a logical leap.
> ...


I think the idea is that because bad guys get more formal training, that means that the system needs to be better. So if system A was good enough to beat people back when people had no clue about fighting, now that people do it doesn't work anymore. So you need an improved system to take into account that you might fight against someone who actually nows how to fight, and also adapt to the changes in fighting style that have happened over the years (pre-UFC stuff doesn't work as well anymore in comp, for instance).

Kinda similar to an argument I've heard about BJJ. If you took someone who was an world champ of BJJ in the mid-90s, and placed them into a modern tournament, they wouldn't do well. Due to a combination of BJJ itself evolving, making some things that used to work obsolete, and larger popularity resulting in a larger talent pool, raising the quality of the competition. Now take that argument and apply it to self-defense.

Note: I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the argument; I've gone back and forth on my thinking about it a few times. Just explaining it.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think the idea is that because bad guys get more formal training, that means that the system needs to be better. So if system A was good enough to beat people back when people had no clue about fighting, now that people do it doesn't work anymore. So you need an improved system to take into account that you might fight against someone who actually nows how to fight, and also adapt to the changes in fighting style that have happened over the years (pre-UFC stuff doesn't work as well anymore in comp, for instance).



But, again - and this is, like, my third or fourth time saying this - you spar with your fellow martial artists at the dojo anyway.  ALL martial artists have ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists.  As a matter of fact, this is one of the most common arguments used by people who question the effectiveness of traditional martial arts.



> Kinda similar to an argument I've heard about BJJ. If you took someone who was an world champ of BJJ in the mid-90s, and placed them into a modern tournament, they wouldn't do well. Due to a combination of BJJ itself evolving, making some things that used to work obsolete, and larger popularity resulting in a larger talent pool, raising the quality of the competition. Now take that argument and apply it to self-defense.



Yeah, but... if we're talking about competitive sports, rules change all the time and fighters have to adjust accordingly.



> Note: I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the argument; I've gone back and forth on my thinking about it a few times. Just explaining it.



Ah, got it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 23, 2020)

There are two updates that I think without a doubt are needed for a *self-defense based *school.

The first is what punisher already said. Something that's made leaps and bounds in the last few decades is the field of psychology. And a lot of that is used to manipulate others, de-escalate, and by LEO for hostage situations and the like. All of that is useful and I would bet that older systems didn't have as much of that (or were based around myths more than now)

The second is a change in weapon defense focus. Not sure what weapons used to be used, but there should be more of a focus on guns then there was when kenpo at least was created (1940s). Guns are more advanced than they were, and I assume concealed guns are more popular then they were in the 1940s or earlier. So if I saw an ad advertising a school as modern day, those would be the two things (along with possibly a larger focused on ground fighting just due to trends) that I would expect to see.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 23, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> But, again - and this is, like, my third or fourth time saying this - you spar with your fellow martial artists at the dojo anyway.  ALL martial artists have ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists.  As a matter of fact, this is one of the most common arguments used by people who question the effectiveness of traditional martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I laughed when I saw the Ah, got it. Glad I added that note in.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Guns are more advanced than they were, and I assume concealed guns are more popular then they were in the 1940s or earlier.



Are you sure about that?  Probably the most popular and most widely used semi-automatic pistol used to this day - i.e., the 1911 - became available in, well, 1911.  Often affectionately referred to as "the pistol that won two world wars."  And it's not the first semi-automatic pistol.  The double action .38 special has been around longer than that, and is still used to this day.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 23, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Are you sure about that?  Probably the most popular and most widely used semi-automatic pistol used to this day - i.e., the 1911 - became available in, well, 1911.  Often affectionately referred to as "the pistol that won two world wars."  And it's not the first semi-automatic pistol.  The double action .38 special has been around longer than that, and is still used to this day.


I'm not actually. I know very little about guns, which is why I assume it.  

I just looked it up, and apparently since the 60s has been hovering between 40 and 50% per gallup, so I guess my assumption was wrong. And I'll take your word for it regarding pistols/what's commonly used. So then the biggest thing would be the incorporation of psychology, if the goal of the system is self-defense.


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## Rusty B (Nov 23, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm not actually. I know very little about guns, which is why I assume it.
> 
> I just looked it up, and apparently since the 60s has been hovering between 40 and 50% per gallup, so I guess my assumption was wrong. And I'll take your word for it regarding pistols/what's commonly used. So then the biggest thing would be the incorporation of psychology, if the goal of the system is self-defense.



I'm no expert on guns myself, just in case someone here who is wants to come tear me a new one.

There are many different brands and models of 1911, double action 38. sp revolvers, etc... and yes, some are of higher quality than others, and even the ballistics of the .45 ACP and the .38 SPC have improved over the years.

However, to the degree that it should affect civilian martial arts training, I'd say, is pretty nil.  I seriously doubt that kenpo, or any other martial art, is going to tell that you can afford to take more risks with a guy who has a Hi-Point than a guy who has a Ruger, or that you should even check to see what kind of gun the guy has in the first place.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 23, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> He also said that the concept of a martial art being updated for modern day street fighting is a marketing ploy... yet, not only did you not bring any smoke to him, but you agreed with it.



I did not address the marketing issue at all, much less agree or disagree.  Please quote me where you say I agreed with this particular statement.



Rusty B said:


> You'd better think deeper about that if you can claim with a straight face that a man is more dangerous because he watched a Chuck Norris flick last night.



I said nothing of the kind.  However, I believe the widespread exposure of MA to the general population has led to more people getting some knowledge, that if they _practice_ it (formally or informally) their fighting skills will be somewhat better than if they saw or knew nothing of it at all.



Steve said:


> First, you say that bad guys train in martial arts more now than in the past. Do you have any evidence to support that?



I only rely on my intuitive comment above, which (to me) seems very reasonable.



Steve said:


> Are you suggesting that they aren't training in Kenpo?



I did not address this point at all.  They can be training in any kind of style (or non-style).



Rusty B said:


> ALL martial artists have ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists.



This is not true.  Original karate was used (as previously mentioned by Punisher and myself) as a civil self defense method against random aggressive individuals (some of which may have had some MA training.)  To say "ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists" would only be (somewhat) true post-1920's after it was introduced into the Okinawan/Japanese school systems sport karate developed.  Keep in mind that tournament sport karate is much different than true Okinawan karate as originally (and sometimes still) taught.


----------



## Steve (Nov 23, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I only rely on my intuitive comment above, which (to me) seems very reasonable.
> 
> I did not address this point at all.  They can be training in any kind of style (or non-style).
> .


Hmmm...  so is Kempo gonna help protect you against bad guys 2.0 (aka, formally trained bad guys)?  I think you're being oddly cagey about this. 

For what it's worth, if your training only helps against someone who is incompetent, that's not great training. I mean, the entire idea of "civilian defense" training or whatever you call it seems very silly.

1:  So, I understand you're a carpenter.  Can you build me a deck better than I could built it myself?
2:  Well, that depends.  Have you ever built anything out of wood before?
1:  No.
2:  Then the answer is maybe!


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 24, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> This actually IS a martial art.  It's called jailhouse rock.



Not talking about that.  Jailhouse Rock/52 Blocks basically came about from the kung fu craze and incorporated elements of kung fu (and some other arts) into western boxing.  I would agree that it is taught and trained as a martial art.  Also, VERY few people are trained in it (comparision of other formalized training).  

Not everything that is done in a jail/prison is "jailhouse rock" or "52 blocks".  99% of the inmates/gang members nowadays wouldn't even know what those terms were in regards to actual fighting unless they heard the references to it in some older rap songs.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 24, 2020)

Steve said:


> entire idea of "civilian defense" training or whatever you call it seems very silly.



This idea comes from _Hanshin_ Patrick McCarthy, karate's most respected historian and researcher, and formerly one of the top tournament fighters in the USA.  He is fluent in Japanese, has lived overseas, and has worked and studied with martial art masters at the highest levels in Japan, Okinawa and China.  He is best known for his translation and commentary of the _Bubishi_ which is one of the earliest writings on the roots and concepts of what we now call karate.

What seems very silly is stating that just because karate was developed to fight in non-military (civil) self-defense situations, it is somehow not able to defend against other trained fighters.  A good martial artist should be able to handle trained or untrained attackers (sometimes those not formally trained can be more dangerous).


----------



## Steve (Nov 24, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> What seems very silly is stating that just because karate was developed to fight in non-military (civil) self-defense situations, it is somehow not able to defend against other trained fighters.  A good martial artist should be able to handle trained or untrained attackers (sometimes those not formally trained can be more dangerous).


If this is what you intended to say earlier, I think we're saying the same thing.  Your earlier posts appeared to suggest that martial artists historically trained only to defend themselves from untrained "thugs" etc.  I'm glad to learn that isn't what you meant.


----------



## Cynik75 (Nov 25, 2020)

Looking at this videos I can say kenpo master Fred Villari is a moron:


----------



## drop bear (Nov 25, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Not talking about that.  Jailhouse Rock/52 Blocks basically came about from the kung fu craze and incorporated elements of kung fu (and some other arts) into western boxing.  I would agree that it is taught and trained as a martial art.  Also, VERY few people are trained in it (comparision of other formalized training).
> 
> Not everything that is done in a jail/prison is "jailhouse rock" or "52 blocks".  99% of the inmates/gang members nowadays wouldn't even know what those terms were in regards to actual fighting unless they heard the references to it in some older rap songs.



 boxing or Wrestling?

You think they were the province of rich people?


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> boxing or Wrestling?
> 
> You think they were the province of rich people?



Huh?  I honestly don't understand what you are asking.  Here is my original post:
_This has been a discussion before on what being "trained" means. Many career criminals practice and train techniques that have worked for them even though they have no "formal training" of going to a school. There are various videos online showing inmates in prison gathering and practicing various techniques of coming off a wall during a patdown search or various disarming techniques. There is also the practice of "slap fighting" used by many to practice their hand techniques that is a form of sparring._

Someone posted a comment that what I was referring to was "Jailhouse Rock", which is what I replied to specifically that I wasn't talking about that (the quote you quoted).

I don't think boxing or wrestling is the province of rich people.  I think both have a history of being done by all groups of people, at least here in the USA.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 25, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> I don't think boxing or wrestling is the province of rich people.  I think both have a history of being done by all groups of people, at least here in the USA.



I always thought it was the opposite.  Often, poor rural people get made fun of for being into "rasslin."

As for boxing... I'd be hard-pressed to name a first generation boxer from either the past or present that didn't grow up poor.  Off the top of my head, Canelo Alvarez is the only one I can come up with.


----------



## wab25 (Nov 25, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> There are many different brands and models of 1911, double action 38. sp revolvers, etc... and yes, some are of higher quality than others, and even the ballistics of the .45 ACP and the .38 SPC have improved over the years.


Okay I have to ask...
How would you change your gun disarm if you were disarming a .45 ACP verses disarming a .38 SPC? What changes would you need to make to disarm a Glock? How does the improved ballistics effect your gun disarm technique?


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 25, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Okay I have to ask...
> How would you change your gun disarm if you were disarming a .45 ACP verses disarming a .38 SPC? What changes would you need to make to disarm a Glock? How does the improved ballistics effect your gun disarm technique?



You're preaching to the choir.  I was making that same point earlier; I was just acknowledging what someone else said.


----------



## wab25 (Nov 25, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> But, again - and this is, like, my third or fourth time saying this - you spar with your fellow martial artists at the dojo anyway. ALL martial artists have ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists. As a matter of fact, this is one of the most common arguments used by people who question the effectiveness of traditional martial arts.


I always love this assumption... When I train Danzan Ryu, I spar with other Danzan Ryu guys.... but I also spar with the new guys who just started. Who are the new guys? Some have no clue how to fight. Some know how to fight on the street. Some have taken other martial arts styles. The truth is, you don't really know what the new guy knows or how he is going to respond. In fact, the experienced guy sparring with the new guy has to factor in a lot of things. First he has to deal with whatever it is that the new guy knows: nothing, street fighting, boxing, judo, wrestling... Second, he needs to handle it in a way that does not hurt the new guy and does not get himself hurt. Third, he has to do all this while using the art that he is studying. (if you are in karate class, and the new guy goes for a Judo throw, because he is a black belt in Judo, and you counter and use a double leg takedown... that looks bad for the karate class...)

I have sparred with the new guys as part of Danzan Ryu, Karate, and MMA classes. The new guys have run the entire spectrum of never fought at all ever, to beat the tar out of people in bar room brawl guys, to high school and college wrestlers and people with more years of martial arts training then I have. I would like to say I whipped them all.... but we know that didn't happen. However, I did learn a ton and got to learn how to adapt quickly.


----------



## wab25 (Nov 25, 2020)

For me the biggest difference between the common thug and the common martial artist (is there such a thing?) is intent. Martial artists intend to train. They intend to compete. They intend try new fancy techniques. 

The common thug intends to hurt you. Thats a big difference. That is what makes the common thug harder to deal with than the guys you spar with... they don't intend to hurt you. Even if they are hitting you hard or throwing you hard, they don't intend to hurt you... they lose a sparring partner that way. Ever seen what happens in a common martial arts school when someone gets hit hard? The other guy stops to see if they are ok. When a common thug hits the other guy really hard, he hits him again and again and again...

In this sense, all martial arts are fake. If you have a reasonable expectation of going home after class... its fake. Even with the more competitive arts... the probability of you heading the hospital afterwards may be higher than if you are training mostly solo kata... but you still expect to go home every night instead of the hospital. Now when the common thug grabs you on the street and shoves you into the alley behind the bar and whips out his knife or brass knuckles... he is meaning to send you to the hospital or worse. If you can deal with that intent, it should not matter really what art you studied or who created it or who they learned it from.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 25, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I always love this assumption... When I train Danzan Ryu, I spar with other Danzan Ryu guys.... but I also spar with the new guys who just started. Who are the new guys? Some have no clue how to fight. Some know how to fight on the street. Some have taken other martial arts styles. The truth is, you don't really know what the new guy knows or how he is going to respond. In fact, the experienced guy sparring with the new guy has to factor in a lot of things. First he has to deal with whatever it is that the new guy knows: nothing, street fighting, boxing, judo, wrestling... Second, he needs to handle it in a way that does not hurt the new guy and does not get himself hurt. Third, he has to do all this while using the art that he is studying. (if you are in karate class, and the new guy goes for a Judo throw, because he is a black belt in Judo, and you counter and use a double leg takedown... that looks bad for the karate class...)
> 
> I have sparred with the new guys as part of Danzan Ryu, Karate, and MMA classes. The new guys have run the entire spectrum of never fought at all ever, to beat the tar out of people in bar room brawl guys, to high school and college wrestlers and people with more years of martial arts training then I have. I would like to say I whipped them all.... but we know that didn't happen. However, I did learn a ton and got to learn how to adapt quickly.



I came into the dojo untrained myself, but have some experience scrapping.

What I've noticed in myself, and others who come in to the dojo with either prior training in other martial art or who've grown up in environments where they've had to scrap, is that the new guys tend stick to the techniques that have been taught to them in karate so far.

For example, I remember one guy - who didn't stick around past the trial period, by the way - with prior boxing experience.  He actually made no attempts to block - my guess is that karate "uke waza" didn't feel natural to him, and that he didn't block the way boxers do (i.e., ducking your head behind your gloves) either because he felt it wasn't allowed, or because he was making a genuine attempt to put that aside so he can focus strictly on learning karate.

That's pretty much what I did (I'm "naturally" a clinch fighter).  As a matter of fact, I remember one of the first few times we were sparring; one of the instructors commented on the way I was bouncing, saying "You're not on the streets."

That almost sounds like techniques from outside of karate are not allowed.


----------



## wab25 (Nov 25, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> What I've noticed in myself, and others who come in to the dojo with either prior training in other martial art or who've grown up in environments where they've had to scrap, is that the new guys tend stick to the techniques that have been taught to them in karate so far.


I guess I was wrong. You are right, martial artists only spar against other martial artist who fight like they do. Thanks for setting me straight.


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## Rusty B (Nov 25, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I guess I was wrong. You are right, martial artists only spar against other martial artist who fight like they do. Thanks for setting me straight.



Huh?


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 25, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Huh?


Now you know how the rest of us feel reading your posts.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 25, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Now you know how the rest of us feel reading your posts.



^^^Coming from the guy who says one can become a martial artist from watching movies.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 25, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Nowadays, more of those one might have to fight have access to seeing and learning fighting techniques and *have the ability to practice *them at a school or home or gang crib





isshinryuronin said:


> getting some knowledge, that* if they practice* it (formally or informally) their fighting skills will be somewhat better



Since you still need help reading, Rusty, I have gone back and actually quoted just a couple of my posts on this thread (there are a couple more on another thread) which you did not do, that prove you are editing and taking out of context my comments to support your absurd position that I say you can "become a martial artist from watching movies." 

As anyone (without a twisted agenda) can plainly read in both quotes, I *never* said just watching a movie will be helpful.  You again ignore the parts about *"practice."*  And I *never* said one could become a martial artist by watching or playing around.  As my second quote plainly shows, I said "if they practice...their fighting *skills will be somewhat better*."  This is a far cry from becoming a martial artist.  Yet, you feel free to change the intended substance of my posts.

You have purposely misrepresented my comments many times.  Have you no pride in your reputation, or just happy being a troll?  I don't know if your malicious misquoting others here violates any rules of this chat site, but it is certainly not becoming of anyone in the martial arts and insults the intelligence of everyone else here.

You have accused both Buka and myself of having something personal against you.  Can't speak for Buka (maybe too nice a guy) but you make it easy for me to have contempt for you.  You have no honor.

My apologies to all others for indulging my personal feelings in this matter.  Just wanted to set the record straight.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 26, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Huh?  I honestly don't understand what you are asking.  Here is my original post:
> _This has been a discussion before on what being "trained" means. Many career criminals practice and train techniques that have worked for them even though they have no "formal training" of going to a school. There are various videos online showing inmates in prison gathering and practicing various techniques of coming off a wall during a patdown search or various disarming techniques. There is also the practice of "slap fighting" used by many to practice their hand techniques that is a form of sparring._
> 
> Someone posted a comment that what I was referring to was "Jailhouse Rock", which is what I replied to specifically that I wasn't talking about that (the quote you quoted).
> ...



Ok. Criminals generally come from poor communities. Especially violent criminals. It is a socio-economic thing. 

In poor communities there is a tendency to learn Martial arts. Boxing  and wrestling in the old prize fighting days. Capoeira and bjj in the favelas. There are still silat gangs running around Indonesia. 

Criminals and Martial arts are a thing

Possibly more than rich people and Martial arts. Which is a fairly new development i think.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 26, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Since you still need help reading, Rusty, I have gone back and actually quoted just a couple of my posts on this thread (there are a couple more on another thread) which you did not do, that prove you are editing and taking out of context my comments to support your absurd position that I say you can "become a martial artist from watching movies."
> 
> As anyone (without a twisted agenda) can plainly read in both quotes, I *never* said just watching a movie will be helpful.  You again ignore the parts about *"practice."*  And I *never* said one could become a martial artist by watching or playing around.  As my second quote plainly shows, I said "if they practice...their fighting *skills will be somewhat better*."  This is a far cry from becoming a martial artist.  Yet, you feel free to change the intended substance of my posts.
> 
> ...



LOL, unless you rescind what you said about movies... your foot is still in your mouth.  All you're doing is trying to out different spins on it in an attempt to not make it sound stupid.

And it's not working.


----------



## Buka (Nov 27, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Since you still need help reading, Rusty, I have gone back and actually quoted just a couple of my posts on this thread (there are a couple more on another thread) which you did not do, that prove you are editing and taking out of context my comments to support your absurd position that I say you can "become a martial artist from watching movies."
> 
> As anyone (without a twisted agenda) can plainly read in both quotes, I *never* said just watching a movie will be helpful.  You again ignore the parts about *"practice."*  And I *never* said one could become a martial artist by watching or playing around.  As my second quote plainly shows, I said "if they practice...their fighting *skills will be somewhat better*."  This is a far cry from becoming a martial artist.  Yet, you feel free to change the intended substance of my posts.
> 
> ...


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## Buka (Nov 27, 2020)

That's six months worth of hard learned experience talking.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 27, 2020)

Buka said:


> That's six months worth of hard learned experience talking.



Looks like you've just revealed your motive behind asking the question.  But if you think you're going to silence me with that, you've got another thing coming.

But that's alright, because I'm about to make you my girlfriend if you want to go there.

If that's the face you really making at home, I've got something I can put in that mouth of yours.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 27, 2020)

By the way. Silat banned in Indonesia because they were having a kung fu hustle style war with each other.

East Timor bans local martial art, pencak silat, amid violence


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 27, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> But that's alright, because I'm about to make you my girlfriend if you want to go there.



Buka, it looks like you've made a special friend.  I'm jealous. 

Moderator, I did not quote Rusty B's next sentence, but it seems it should be enough to get rid of this guy who showed his true colors.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 28, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> I always thought it was the opposite.  Often, poor rural people get made fun of for being into "rasslin."
> 
> As for boxing... I'd be hard-pressed to name a first generation boxer from either the past or present that didn't grow up poor.  Off the top of my head, Canelo Alvarez is the only one I can come up with.



University boxing would be the exception.

Eg. Cambridge University Amateur Boxing Club


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Criminals generally come from poor communities. Especially violent criminals. It is a socio-economic thing.
> 
> In poor communities there is a tendency to learn Martial arts. Boxing  and wrestling in the old prize fighting days. Capoeira and bjj in the favelas. There are still silat gangs running around Indonesia.
> 
> ...



Originally, in Okinawa, it was only the upper caste that practiced martial arts.  The "poor people" were too busy trying to make a living.  If you look at all the early karate masters, they worked for the king in some capacity.  If you look at the history of boxing, it was taught to the upper caste as a method of self-defense against hooligans and other riff-raff.

I think it has always been a blend, what I think changes is the type of school were the person goes to learn.  For example, it used to be boxing was taught in clubs and community centers for free in many places.  Their location would make it so the lower income kids would go there as opposed to upper income people wanting to learn it.


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## Oni_Kadaki (Dec 2, 2020)

So, it would seem this thread deviated from the original point, but I would like to chime in on that original point regardless. When I lived in Tucson, I trained in Aikido (my main art) and Parker-style Kenpo for about six months simultaneously. I had just learned "Crashing Wings" (I believe that's the name), and had begun practicing it on my own a few times a week, when we began working a double wrist grab from behind technique in Aikido. A buddy of mine was my partner, and, having some street fighting experience, he liked to challenge me in the dojo. He asked for permission to get frisky, which I granted, and he, without warning, switched from a wrist grab from behind to an attempted full nelson. Without skipping a beat, I performed Crashing Wings, and successfully took him down. When I was helping him up, he asked what I had done, and I excitedly replied "Kenpo!"

I relate this anecdote to you because it earned Kenpo a special respect in my mind. I haven't tested out all of my techniques on unsuspecting opponents, or even many of them, but the fast acquisition of muscle memory of Crashing Wings, and the ability to perform it as I did, just by practicing it as directed, really left an impression on me. I've said before that I believe virtually all arts bring something to the table, and I believe Kenpo has an absolutely brilliant method of teaching it's techniques.


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## MFC__2020 (Dec 3, 2020)

Kempo is real.  A punch, kick, eye poke, are all real legitimate moves that can hurt an opponent.


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## Directional Harmony (Mar 14, 2021)

I mean all I can say is I've been in a few street fights and my kenpo saved my *** every time. Not sure what kind of proof you need for yourself. You will get out of kenpo what you put into it. A good instructor is knowledgeable about the concepts and principles and can guide you toward making it applicable to real world situations. As Parker said, "to hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, but to feel is to believe. "


----------



## Buka (May 1, 2021)

Had a nice phone chat yesterday with a good buddy who’s been running an American Kempo dojo, full time, in MA for forty something years now.

He has black belt testing going on right now. His BB tests go for sixteen weekends in a row, sometime Saturdays, sometime Sundays and sometimes both days.

The first day of the test the student does a thirty mile bike run (I forget the time they have to do it in) has a five minute rest and then runs seven miles. Then four hundred meter run, then three hundred yard sprints.

I know what a lot of people say “that has nothing to do with Kempo”. Yeah, well it does with his.

As he says, in certain Self defense scenarios, you preach to people “run away”. I can tell you first hand all his students could do just that quite well.

He has the most successful long time dojo I know of, his students have great attitudes, are in great shape and are very successful. And they all fight quite well. And I tell ya, they know the Kempo material inside and out. And his school’s material is very extensive.

He has a crazy amount of students and makes a ton of money. And good for him, he’s an honest hard working Sensei.

So... it can be done.


----------



## Buka (May 2, 2021)

Buka said:


> Had a nice phone chat yesterday with a good buddy who’s been running an American Kempo dojo, full time, in MA for forty something years now.
> 
> He has black belt testing going on right now. His BB tests go for sixteen weekends in a row, sometime Saturdays, sometime Sundays and sometimes both days.
> 
> ...


As an update to the above, I spoke with him again today. One of the Black Belt candidates is a twenty six year old woman who's been training for twelve years. She's two weeks into her test and has come down with a nasty case of shingles. I've never heard of anyone that young suffering from this. A Doc who's a black belt in the dojo told me buddy she has to stop, so that's what they did.

Man, life ain't easy.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 2, 2021)

Which reminds me, I’m old enough to qualify for the shingles vaccine now.


----------



## dancingalone (May 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Which reminds me, I’m old enough to qualify for the shingles vaccine now.


Me too!  I actually got a mild case of shingles when I was in my early forties.  It happens.  I was fortunate to not have any nerve pain.  Just that weird splotching on my right bicep.  I definitely need to get in for that vaccine.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 7, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> Me too!  I actually got a mild case of shingles when I was in my early forties.  It happens.  I was fortunate to not have any nerve pain.  Just that weird splotching on my right bicep.  I definitely need to get in for that vaccine.


Not liking that you had shingles.  Just sharing the good idea.


----------



## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

JKDJade said:


> Wait up y'all...before you guys start bashing. Let's talk about this and ponder.
> 
> I've studied Kenpo, both Parker and Tracy...long enough to go from wow, look at my cool black gi and patches, man I'm the next American Ninja...then to went to...him this is cool, these moves are so deadly, I can't use it all in a tournament and my sensi is a bad ***, so bad *** he can take on multiple people in a bar fight will texting...then went, well, these moves are ok, but will they really work? Then went to question them and restudy them....pressure test and reapply...then went...hmmm, well they don't all work, but I still look cool in my black GI and my strikes are fast now, maybe I didn't waste all my time and money.
> 
> ...


Kenpo isn't fighting. EPAK is the study of motion inspired by fighting concepts. GM Frank Trejo was a real fighter and an EPAK master. I think we put too many expectations on to the training. 
The best trained karate person can still suck at fighting. Just as the best street fighters cannot always teach people how to fight. 

The real jewel of EPAK to me is that everything builds upon itself to help look at motion And combat in an artistic way.


----------



## RagingBull (May 28, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Parker's system was definitely karate (with a Polynesian flavor) with a lot of speedy, close-in techniques.   In some ways it resembled original Okinawan style in this respect, along with stress on leg checks/attacks and simultaneous defense and offense.  At the time, (1970's) this was innovative in karate as it was then practiced in Japan and the West.  (This gap has closed over the last decade or two as the original Okinawan style has been "rediscovered.")
> 
> His kenpo was very systemized/organized (which aided his business model) and taught many solid concepts in biomechanics and tactics.  While the validity of Parker's lineage has long been suspect, and he was definitely a business oriented promoter, he was a physical force to be reckoned with.  His personal technique was not pretty, but I have been struck by him several times and I can attest to his surprising speed and power.  His early students were successful competitors and excellent technicians.
> 
> There were a number of people who did not care for his personality / ego (which I fully understand) but to call the style fake or bullshido is, I think, inaccurate.     *Note - my kenpo experience is from the 70's and it may be that more recent instructors have degraded the system - I cannot speak to that.  I can speak to the fact that his patch was very cool and he would not, indeed, look good in MMA shorts.


To me what matters is that it works. who cares about lineage..etc
never tried it but yeah i think Parker was a clever man. Everyone wanted to make money & be the Grand master back in the day. 
Hell...he even trained Elvis the King !!


----------



## angelariz (May 28, 2021)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> So, it would seem this thread deviated from the original point, but I would like to chime in on that original point regardless. When I lived in Tucson, I trained in Aikido (my main art) and Parker-style Kenpo for about six months simultaneously. I had just learned "Crashing Wings" (I believe that's the name), and had begun practicing it on my own a few times a week, when we began working a double wrist grab from behind technique in Aikido. A buddy of mine was my partner, and, having some street fighting experience, he liked to challenge me in the dojo. He asked for permission to get frisky, which I granted, and he, without warning, switched from a wrist grab from behind to an attempted full nelson. Without skipping a beat, I performed Crashing Wings, and successfully took him down. When I was helping him up, he asked what I had done, and I excitedly replied "Kenpo!"
> 
> I relate this anecdote to you because it earned Kenpo a special respect in my mind. I haven't tested out all of my techniques on unsuspecting opponents, or even many of them, but the fast acquisition of muscle memory of Crashing Wings, and the ability to perform it as I did, just by practicing it as directed, really left an impression on me. I've said before that I believe virtually all arts bring something to the table, and I believe Kenpo has an absolutely brilliant method of teaching it's techniques.


Kenpo can be amazing. I spent a few years training with JKD guys that ran Kenpo schools. American Kenpo is my favorite form of Kenpo however there are many types and most of them have a lot of value in may ways. 

EPAK is great, but so is Kosho Ryu, many of the older Kempo/Kenpo systems. I am not a fan of Shaolin Kempo but im sure there are many competent SKK people as well.


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## RagingBull (May 28, 2021)

always thought this guy showed some good stuff. Jeff speakman


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