# disadvantages of MT(for self defense)



## cfr

Same disclaimer as last time. Let me first start off with the disclaimer that I dont train at a full blown MT gym. I dont want to step on any toes here. (I seem to do that often enough in the Kenpo forum.)   :ultracool 

I watched MT fights the other night for my first time. Some of the things they got me wondering about how good it would be for self defense. Two thing in particular:

1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.

Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???


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## arnisador

Concessions to the fact that it's a sport, I suppose--with the groin not a target and tackling disallowed, they must optimize for the situation, as boxers do. The question is, does the realism of the training make up for it?


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## moving target

MT is a sport, I don't think people get in a street fight thinking it will be like a ring fight, the benefit of training in any kind of sport is that you can sharpen specific tools.


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## Touch Of Death

cfr said:
			
		

> Same disclaimer as last time. Let me first start off with the disclaimer that I dont train at a full blown MT gym. I dont want to step on any toes here. (I seem to do that often enough in the Kenpo forum.)   :ultracool
> 
> I watched MT fights the other night for my first time. Some of the things they got me wondering about how good it would be for self defense. Two thing in particular:
> 
> 1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
> 2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.
> 
> Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???


Squaring off by facing eachother is not as dangerous as you were taught. Minimizing your targets by completly turning your body limits missle attacks, but thes guys have round house kicks from hell. The trade off for speed and mobility is well worth it for their purposes. I'll use a saying from the movie SWAT, "Sometimes the right thing to do isn't the right thing to do." 
Sean


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## KennethKu

cfr said:
			
		

> .....
> 1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
> 2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.
> 
> Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???



MT as practiced for self defence and combat is NOT constrained by the sport rules. Needless to say that is also true for all MA practiced in combat.  People are not morons. Every practitioner knows the difference between sparring in the rings and combat and adapts the MA accordingly.


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## OULobo

I think the "squared stance" can be explained, as already mentioned, by the idea that the groin is not a target in Muay Thai, which is a sport and the competitors are expected to abide by the rules. I often hear that early competitors wore coconuts for protection. 

The fully erect stance is IMO idea for mobility and power generation.


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## Azagthoth

Hey Cfr,
I can maybe explain some of what you're asking..the reasons you see muay thai guys in the kind of straight up, almost squared stance make sense after you practice the art for awhile.  One of the big things is that if you get sideways like other arts, ie. with the front and back feet in line perpendicular to the opponent, a muay thai leg kick will put you right on the ground, since it will usually hit both legs right behind the knees.  We have seen this many times at our school where both MT and TKD are taught....the TKD guys learn very quickly when they come to MT sparring class that the sideways TKD stance is a bad idea   Also, this stance allows for the most power from the roundhouse kick, and it's the easiest stance to be in for throwing elbows and knees, which we are quite fond of.  

As other people mentioned in replies, the groin is not a target in sport MT so we tend to not worry as much about getting hit there, although in a street situation I would tend to worry about it alot.

As far as being easy to take down, you'll probably find that if you aren't very confident in methods of taking people down, this won't be as easy as it seems...most MT people I work out with are very familiar with how to sprawl, as we know that there are fights outside of the muay thai ring.  Also you have to make sure you don't eat knees while shooting..ouch.  

Hope that helps a little!


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## soccer50

you stand however u want to stand in the ring. 

and from the looks of it, u've never gotten in a fist fight. there is no stance is fist fights. everythign is fast and constantly moving.  Muay Thai teaches you to hit fast and hard. and keep you hands up. watever martial art that "teaches" you "street defence" is bull$h|t. thats the kind of crap that will get you really messed up. and the instructor probabnly hasnt even fuohght a real fite.


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## cfr

soccer50 said:
			
		

> you stand however u want to stand in the ring.
> 
> and from the looks of it, u've never gotten in a fist fight. there is no stance is fist fights. everythign is fast and constantly moving.  Muay Thai teaches you to hit fast and hard. and keep you hands up. watever martial art that "teaches" you "street defence" is bull$h|t. thats the kind of crap that will get you really messed up. and the instructor probabnly hasnt even fuohght a real fite.



Admins thanks for deleteing my last response. 


Your insights and knowledge are fascinating. If I ever have the opportunity to meet Dan Inosanto, I will let him know how you feel LOL.  :uhyeah: My instructor grew up in the Phillipines and got into lots of fights. How you came up with all this profound wisdom is totally beyond me.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

Cfr,

The stance that Kru Chai teaches us, is not 100% squared off. You are at a slight angle, to make good use of your hands, while still enabling you to make effective use of your elbows, knees, and kicks. Your groin is not completely exposed, but it wouldn't take much to get in there either. To completely square off, is to give up the body placement needed for effective punches. Also, when practicing MT there should be some slight movement within your stance, so you will hardly ever be standing completely straight up. You must keep in mind, not all Muay Thai is the exact same from school to school. Stances, techniques, and mechanics will change a little bit from gym to gym. Additionally, learning to sprawl is among the first things we are taught to help prevent such shooting situations. 

 :asian:


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## Kris

As far as stances go, i can see many reasons for a more squared off approach. I'm having a hell of time trying to break my old karate habits to learn muay thai, and that includes using a deep and less squared off stance. Not only does this limit your punches severly, it also leaves that front foot wide open to leg sweeps which if you have a more squared off stance you can recover from.

my 0.02 late in the evening....


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## legend29

I'll just say what my Kru says over an over to people who wonder if Muay Thai is a good reality based martial art as opposed to just being a sport.

" Muay Thai is more than a sport. People play football and basketball, but people don't play Muay Thai ! It doesn't get more realistic than that "


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## AdrenalineJunky

Hey everyone, new guy here. Having done Muay Thai for over 10 years, I can say that it is an art that geared for combat. MT is a lot like boxing: there are few strikes to learn, and the rest is training. Many people do not understand the level of training that the fighters endure. I saw a perfect example of this the other day. The gym I train at also has instructors who do JKD, and I believe that the instructor incorporates some MT in to those workouts. However, when some of the JKD students showed up for the MT class, they realized how hard-core the MT workouts are. Regarding the stance, I have never found it to be a disadvantage in either sparring or street situations. I think it's a pretty agile stance, which allows me to move in and out, as well as laterally without sacrificing my ability to throw strikes.


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## jukado1

Basic fact, Muay Thai is not self defense, self defense is self defense. but if you think that an advanced mt fighter could not defend themselves, its been nice knowing you.  MT does not teach how to stop a take down, how to defend against a choke, or weapons attacks. But if you check with some of the top teachers you'll find out that these things are covered in MT self defense training.  If you really look with an open mind, you'll see that no martial art has all the answers in self defense, but the more of them you study, the more you can learn.


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## bluenosekenpo

cfr said:
			
		

> Same disclaimer as last time. Let me first start off with the disclaimer that I dont train at a full blown MT gym. I dont want to step on any toes here. (I seem to do that often enough in the Kenpo forum.)   :ultracool
> 
> I watched MT fights the other night for my first time. Some of the things they got me wondering about how good it would be for self defense. Two thing in particular:
> 
> 1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
> 2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.
> 
> Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???



i'm not 100% sure but i believe another advantage to this stance is to permit the fighter to block the roundhouse kick(from either side) with either his knee, elbow or combo of both. input from muay thai guys requested to substantiate thet. regards  :asian:


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## auxprix

I'm not in MT, but rather Judo. I just wanted to put a little insight into the takedown thing, since that is pretty much all we do.

We basically stand in a square stance as well. I believe it is harder to perform a throw or takedown on an opponent who is squared off. First of all, the square stance tends to provide a more even balance. As long as the fighter is flexible while square, it can be difficult to take them down. The side stance is very week in Judo, and is usually an indication that you have been set off balance and are about to be taken down. If I were personally wrestling a side stance, all I would probably have to do is pull the sleeve toward me and slip my foot behind the heel.

This is just from a Judo perspective. I am by no means a MMA expert,  but I thought it may be helpful.


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## loki09789

jukado1 said:
			
		

> Basic fact, Muay Thai is not self defense, self defense is self defense. but if you think that an advanced mt fighter could not defend themselves, its been nice knowing you. MT does not teach how to stop a take down, how to defend against a choke, or weapons attacks. But if you check with some of the top teachers you'll find out that these things are covered in MT self defense training. If you really look with an open mind, you'll see that no martial art has all the answers in self defense, but the more of them you study, the more you can learn.


If I am not mistaken, like Judo, MT is a sport version of a combative system.  If the fighter in MT understands how to translate sport skill to the street then it can work.  The biggest rep that MT has IMO is its full contact training for toughness both mental and physical and the fitness/conditioning.

I am not a fan of 'one way' training, but if a guy can make his 'hammer only' tool box work because he is tougher and more fit and combines it with good judgement (either from lessons learned or tactical training/street training) then I sure as hell don't want to have to deal with him/her.


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## muaythaifreak

You would probably be ill advised to attempt to block a round kick with your elbow as it will undoubtedly be smashed if the kick is thrown with the proper force.  Round kicks are blocked with the shin.  Preferably the upper shin.  I have seen it done with the knee as a "destruction" block, (similar to blocking a jab or right cross with your elbow.), however, I think the possiblility of a knee injury outweighs the possible benefit of causing the kicker to break their shin.  (which rarely happens).  

As to MT having no defense against grappling/throws/ weapons, the assumption that MT has none is simply incorrect.  SPORT MT certainly does not, however TRADITIONAL MT has many.  Check out Krabi Krabong, memai muay thai, and muay boran.  There is a plethera of these techniques present in traditional MT.  The MT you see today is what has evolved over the past 100 years or so as a national pastime and organized sport.  Traditional MT has been around by some accounts for 3000 years, by others for 2000.  What is presented in the ring is merely the tip of the iceburg.


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## bluenosekenpo

muaythaifreak said:
			
		

> You would probably be ill advised to attempt to block a round kick with your elbow as it will undoubtedly be smashed if the kick is thrown with the proper force.  Round kicks are blocked with the shin.  Preferably the upper shin.  I have seen it done with the knee as a "destruction" block, (similar to blocking a jab or right cross with your elbow.), however, I think the possiblility of a knee injury outweighs the possible benefit of causing the kicker to break their shin.  (which rarely happens).
> 
> As to MT having no defense against grappling/throws/ weapons, the assumption that MT has none is simply incorrect.  SPORT MT certainly does not, however TRADITIONAL MT has many.  Check out Krabi Krabong, memai muay thai, and muay boran.  There is a plethera of these techniques present in traditional MT.  The MT you see today is what has evolved over the past 100 years or so as a national pastime and organized sport.  Traditional MT has been around by some accounts for 3000 years, by others for 2000.  What is presented in the ring is merely the tip of the iceburg.





sorriy, i guess i didn't explain that very well, i didn't mean a destruction with your elbow but basically presenting a wall with that side of your body, or (taken from lana muay thai)

http://lannamuaythai.com/cgi-bin/s?...hniques__guards_blocks.html&m=398279760200000

 :asian:


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## muaythaifreak

Yep, that's how it's done!


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## Littledragon

cfr said:
			
		

> Same disclaimer as last time. Let me first start off with the disclaimer that I dont train at a full blown MT gym. I dont want to step on any toes here. (I seem to do that often enough in the Kenpo forum.) :ultracool
> 
> I watched MT fights the other night for my first time. Some of the things they got me wondering about how good it would be for self defense. Two thing in particular:
> 
> 1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
> 2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.
> 
> Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???


Every martial art has its disadvantages and cons. Muay Thai lacks the ground fighting and grappling techniques, you are right they fight squared leaving their body vulnerable for open attack, and yes the raise their front foot making it clear which foot they will kick with but also Muay Thai in the ring and in the street used for self defense is different. The Muay Thai fighter in the ring is thinking about winning and knocking his opponent out, the Muay Thai fighter in the street is thinking about how his life is on the line. Muay Thai is very effective for self defense because just imagine one Muay Thai kick to the leg hitting the nerve will end the fight just there. Every style has its disadvantages, its the advatanges you want to focus on. 

Tarek Hussein (16)


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## muaythaifreak

It's anything but "easy" to take a Muay Thai fighter to the ground.  Most take downs require that you get your center of gravity lower than your opponents, with MT fighters, the low game is usually quite strong.  Not to mention the lower your center of gravity is, the closer your head is to my knees which is a bad place for your head if your up against a thai fighter that knows his business.  I'm not saying a thai fighter cannot be taken down, I've been taken down a number of times, but I don't think the people who have taken me down would say it has been an easy task.  

That foot thing you mention... raising the lead leg and "bouncing" it so to speak.  That does not automatically tell you which foot is going to kick.  MT uses what's known as the "switch kick"  and done correctly, it's very effective.  However, the rear leg is normally the more powerful of the two and can be employed with almost equal quickness by a good fighter.  Don't let the stance fool you.  It may look awkward, but it facilitates very quick use of either leg as well as making inexperienced opponents make the same assumption you do.  (that the lead leg is the one that's going to be coming.)
Spar with some of the better MT guys in your school.  You'll see what I mean.


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## Littledragon

muaythaifreak said:
			
		

> It's anything but "easy" to take a Muay Thai fighter to the ground. Most take downs require that you get your center of gravity lower than your opponents, with MT fighters, the low game is usually quite strong. Not to mention the lower your center of gravity is, the closer your head is to my knees which is a bad place for your head if your up against a thai fighter that knows his business. I'm not saying a thai fighter cannot be taken down, I've been taken down a number of times, but I don't think the people who have taken me down would say it has been an easy task.
> 
> That foot thing you mention... raising the lead leg and "bouncing" it so to speak. That does not automatically tell you which foot is going to kick. MT uses what's known as the "switch kick" and done correctly, it's very effective. However, the rear leg is normally the more powerful of the two and can be employed with almost equal quickness by a good fighter. Don't let the stance fool you. It may look awkward, but it facilitates very quick use of either leg as well as making inexperienced opponents make the same assumption you do. (that the lead leg is the one that's going to be coming.)
> Spar with some of the better MT guys in your school. You'll see what I mean.


A good example is striking to clinch in and lean your head agasint the shoulder or side of the body in order not to get hit with any strike than take the person to the ground. No art is the best or superior so in order to be a good martial artist you have to be an overall well rounded fighter so if the Muay Thai fighter gets on the ground he better know some grappling, same with the grappler and any other martial artist.

Tarek


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## muaythaifreak

Don't forget that the standing clinch is a Muay Thai speciality.  We do it all the time.  So you better be able to play the stand up game pretty well if your going to do that.  But you're absolutely right about if a MT fighter goes to the ground.  Which is why I also study BJJ.


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## Littledragon

muaythaifreak said:
			
		

> Don't forget that the standing clinch is a Muay Thai speciality. We do it all the time. So you better be able to play the stand up game pretty well if your going to do that. But you're absolutely right about if a MT fighter goes to the ground. Which is why I also study BJJ.


Cool thats great. Great fighters must be well rounded, they must be able to strike and grapple like you do.



Tarek


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada

Interseting observations.......I find that the conditioning methods, and ability to generate power from training in MT, is very benificial, but as all arts it has its limitations.  If u can take the training methods of MT, and apply them to your style, it can be a great benifit, and complement your training.  Not to mention getting in the ring a few times for fun, for the experience.   
Stay open, do what your gut tells you..........

just one man's opinion


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## OC Kid

I find that MT is a simple art, few techniques no or very little open hand techniques and very few take downs, joint locks, throws ect.

Now with that being said, the strength of MT is in the simplicity of the art. Their punches and kicks are extremely powerful as well as the elbow strikes and knees. It is my experiance a trained MT fighter is a very dangerous person on the street. As a karate teacher who also trained MT I warn my students if they ever see a guy stand this way or hold their hands up this way be careful and do not fool with them.

On the other hand when I learned it was about 14 years ago from a little Japanese guy who could barely speak english, he was undefeated in Japan with over 300 fights. Now MT gyms instructors are everywhere. Much like karate there are a lot of Mc Thai schools so for present or future students like all MA students anymore becareful which school and where you train.


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## bignick

if a muay thai fighter knows how to tranistion from the ring to the street...they shouldn't have much of a problem defending themselves in an unarmed situation....the problem that you see all the time is people that train in sport styles like muay thai, tkd, judo and sport karate that don't realize that techniques have different applications outside the ring...we tkd people love our high kicks...watch the olympics...just blindingly fast...if they realize on the street to keep those kicks low...they'll do alright...it's when somebody thinks that the other person is going to fight them in the exact same style that they fight...especially against someone completely untrained...they can do anything...and they'll suprise you...cause they didn't know they're not "supposed" to do that...


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## Shiro_Ryuu

Hi everyone, I'm a new member here who is a Tae Kwon Do black belt but now is doing Muay Thai and as Jiujitsu. I think that one of Muay Thai's weaknesses in a street fight is that if the fight ever does go to the ground, the trained fighter would lose his advantage if he was not trained to fight in the ground. I have heard that Muay Thai doesn't teach ground fighting because the Thais used to think that if you are ever in the ground in a fight, you have already lost.


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## OULobo

Shiro_Ryuu said:
			
		

> Hi everyone, I'm a new member here who is a Tae Kwon Do black belt but now is doing Muay Thai and as Jiujitsu. I think that one of Muay Thai's weaknesses in a street fight is that if the fight ever does go to the ground, the trained fighter would lose his advantage if he was not trained to fight in the ground. I have heard that Muay Thai doesn't teach ground fighting because the Thais used to think that if you are ever in the ground in a fight, you have already lost.



That may be from the old military principle. The idea was that if you fell in combat and began wrasslin', you would either be trampled or the at the mercy of the spears/bayonets of those around you. If you were lucky the surrounding soldiers were yours and they would kill your attacker, if not then the enemy soldiers would kill you. Either way your abilities on the ground were essentially stall tactics for the ultimate outcome of what was going on up above.


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## OC Kid

I agree. Most of the Thai fighters I trained with/fought ect could hit so hard if they connected first there wouldnt be much left in their enemy. I used to fight a lot as a kid. Kid = 13-29 years old. I never went to the ground either in the ring or behind the bar (tav). If a fight ever went to the ground it was because I didnt do what I was supposed to do.

But FWIW it is wise to learn some ground work not as a all and all end but in case you do go down you can get back up.

Like I said in a previous post, if you go down in the street someone is going to be stomping a mud hole in you.


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## PeachMonkey

Shiro_Ryuu said:
			
		

> I have heard that Muay Thai doesn't teach ground fighting because the Thais used to think that if you are ever in the ground in a fight, you have already lost.



Let's keep in mind, as well, that Muay Thai is a *ring art*, which doesn't incorporate ground-fighting... must like Western boxing in that respect.

Some of the more comprehensive Thai martial arts on this it's based, such as Krabi-Krabong, may have more about fighting on the ground.


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## DeLamar.J

Whenever a style is competing, the way they fight is going to be alot different than the way they street fight because of rules. Certain stances give you advantages in the ring vs in a street fight they wont. For example, BJJ. In the cage its almost unstoppable, on the street, they are open for a nice chomping attack with most of there good holds and setups. Biting is not anything to worry about in the cage, but on the street it is. People tend to forget that. Thats why I feel standup fighting is best in the street along with many other reasons. If someone trys to grapple me in the street, they are getting bit plain and simple!


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## ThuNder_FoOt

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Let's keep in mind, as well, that Muay Thai is a *ring art*, which doesn't incorporate ground-fighting... must like Western boxing in that respect.
> 
> Some of the more comprehensive Thai martial arts on this it's based, such as Krabi-Krabong, may have more about fighting on the ground.



On that same token, most Thai fighters have basic knowledge of groundfighting, such as spawling, mounting, etc... due to the realization of one of muay Thai's weaknesses.


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## AC_Pilot

Having trained in Muay Thai and JKD, I like the hard core training aspects and a bit of the foot work and defensive handwork, but I think little of Muay Thai as self defense. It's a hard core *sport*. Interception and destruction of a Muay Thai thigh kick is too easy, using reactive-muscle-kicks and the MT footwork does not blend into 95% of JKD theory. The only place I would use a Muay Thai kick would be (maybe) if a person was *down* at the right angle and I did not want them getting up again. Many other kicks would probably work there as well. Weng Chun low line kicks (Oblique as an example) Pananjakman and Savate and other kicks are far more effective in a street fight. But then that's JKD.. we take what works and cast out what does not. I studied Muay Thai mostly to learn how to intercept and destroy it, this is basic JKD theory.

Chino Muay Thai (Biting, pinching, eye gouging) is a great way to equalize against those *groundfighters on the street*. That way we can get back up on our feet where we can be way more effective, especially against multiple attackers.

Oh, and I just went back and read a few of the posts on this thread. I won't be intercepting the MT kicker's shin, I'll put my elbow/knee/foot/toe strike into a target like that nice soft vulnerable thigh, maybe at the sciatic nerve. When that foot comes down the kicker will be disabled or in great pain. I won't try to evade, I'll simultaneously counter-attack.


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## Toasty

First of all its called Kino Mutai & has nothing to do with Muay Thai at all dude... its Filipino (and its not even agreed upon that it actually exists...)

Also, do think that BJJ and other grapplers are unfamiliar with biting & such? And that for some reason they can't bite you back?

Also, have you ever tried to actually "intercept" a real Muay Thai round kick outside of a training scenario?  Cause they seem completely unable to do in either pure Muay Thai competition or in MMA bouts either (as well a myself having used this on more than one occasion in real life).

jeez...


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## pnoy_kickfighter

jukado1 said:
			
		

> Basic fact, Muay Thai is not self defense, self defense is self defense. but if you think that an advanced mt fighter could not defend themselves, its been nice knowing you. MT does not teach how to stop a take down, how to defend against a choke, or weapons attacks. But if you check with some of the top teachers you'll find out that these things are covered in MT self defense training. If you really look with an open mind, you'll see that no martial art has all the answers in self defense, but the more of them you study, the more you can learn.


 I not an expert in Muay Thai but doesnt muay thai have any locks? I saw in a book that in muay thai you can "lock" your enemy and you can knee him. But then again maybe I read wrong.


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## cfr

pnoy_kickfighter said:
			
		

> I not an expert in Muay Thai but doesnt muay thai have any locks? I saw in a book that in muay thai you can "lock" your enemy and you can knee him. But then again maybe I read wrong.




Do you mean the clinch? If so, yes, MT teaches it.


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## automaton

This thread title  is on alot of different sites, Use the appropriate system.  Sport is sport as in ring muay thai.  In old style muay thai, you ahve a marital arts like mix: self defense, combative sport fighting, etc or you go military muay thai for self defense, krabi krabong in which certain systems are completely combative without dancing the weapons etc--all contain the headbutts, eye shots, throws, stomps, and shorter weapons like vertical fist short shots to use in a street fight or empty hand altercation. krabikrabong deasl with multiman and weapons attacks to complete the circle. All the tools of ring muay thai came from theolder arts adn they are all there in variation. Ring muay thai in thailand strictly deals with the business of getting a man ready for the ring.  Of course the training produces an excellent fighter but as we know in a real life altercation theres alot more components to be dealt with


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## Jagermeister

As many of you have discussed, it's been debated whether or not the technique of MT may give an edge in a street situation.  But what does give an advantage is the sheer toughness that comes from the intensity of MT training.  I'm not saying technique isn't important - it's the most important thing - but I think that we can all agree, that when it comes down to it, toughness counts - a lot, especially when considering that there's no perfect style, each having its pros and cons.

Edit:  Having said that, I'd like to add that I believe the technique of MT does give an edge, as well as the toughness.  The power is devastating.  In the dictionary, next to the word "power" should be a picture of a MT round kick being executed.


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## AdrenalineJunky

I'm a Thai fighter, and I was a bouncer for a long while. I also have a degree in Admin. of Justice and LEO training. I also wrestled in Junior High and Highschool. In real life, MT is a very useful striking system. I get this all the time, the : "well, if I did [insert unrealistic strike, lock, throw here] you'd have no defense against it." My answer is: "man-up, toss on the gloves and give'er a shot." In my experience, MMA gyms do not train Muay Thai the way Muay Thai gyms do. If you shoot on me, I will ram my knee through your jaw. How do you intent to kick me in the groin, push kick, soccer-style kick, side-kick. . .Muay Thai has all of those. . .it's nothing new to us; defending that is the bread-and-butter of Muay Thai defense. Sweeps. . .we have those, too. Take downs. . .they're there, as well. Bottom line: go spar with a Thai boxer, my Kenpo buddy was surprised the first time he sparred with me.


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## Odin

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> I'm a Thai fighter, and I was a bouncer for a long while. I also have a degree in Admin. of Justice and LEO training. I also wrestled in Junior High and Highschool. In real life, MT is a very useful striking system. I get this all the time, the : "well, if I did [insert unrealistic strike, lock, throw here] you'd have no defense against it." My answer is: "man-up, toss on the gloves and give'er a shot." In my experience, MMA gyms do not train Muay Thai the way Muay Thai gyms do. If you shoot on me, I will ram my knee through your jaw. How do you intent to kick me in the groin, push kick, soccer-style kick, side-kick. . .Muay Thai has all of those. . .it's nothing new to us; defending that is the bread-and-butter of Muay Thai defense. Sweeps. . .we have those, too. Take downs. . .they're there, as well. Bottom line: go spar with a Thai boxer, my Kenpo buddy was surprised the first time he sparred with me.


 
Clap clap! was discussing that the other day,mma gyms train muay thai completely  different I've watched ufc and pride and i see the 'muay thai' fighters and am always confused as to what the hell they are doing!

I get the same rubbish,I recently sparred with a karate dude up in the gym who doubted muay thai barbaric rubbish i think he called it,then went on to talk about all these karate blocks and counters and how he could grab my arm and position me over there to do this and that..he didnt because he had to be dman good to block/counter a push kick then a left,right hook, kick knee then clinch to show off.....the thing is I find hard with muay thai is that its hard to be nice when sparring...i mean i couldnt just elbow the dude in his head could i...that would just be mean.


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## Jagermeister

Odin said:
			
		

> ...the thing is I find hard with muay thai is that its hard to be nice when sparring...i mean i couldnt just elbow the dude in his head could i...that would just be mean.



Tough love.  lol.


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## Muay Thai Knee

Muay Thai is excellent for self defense. It is a no nonsense martial art.

The punches have serious power.
The kicks are lethal.
The elbows are really dangerous. 
The knees are the worst.

On top of all that it teaches you how to counter and attack in one movement. Your opponent throws a punch and you will parry the punch and elbow in the same motion. While your would be attacker is thinking that hurt. You follow through with a combo that you have done a gazillion times in training.

When I watch MMA it amazes me how few people get kneed in the face when they attempt a takedown. It's what I'd go for instinctively.


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## Jagermeister

Muay Thai Knee said:
			
		

> Muay Thai is excellent for self defense. It is a no nonsense martial art.
> 
> The punches have serious power.
> The kicks are lethal.
> The elbows are really dangerous.
> The knees are the worst.
> 
> On top of all that it teaches you how to counter and attack in one movement. Your opponent throws a punch and you will parry the punch and elbow in the same motion. While your would be attacker is thinking that hurt. You follow through with a combo that you have done a gazillion times in training.
> 
> When I watch MMA it amazes me how few people get kneed in the face when they attempt a takedown. It's what I'd go for instinctively.



I totally agree with you.

As far as the MMA matches are concerned, I think the idea is that unless the knee produces a knockout, you give up the takedown.  And if you feel you're at disadvantage grappling, that's not a good trade.


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## Muay Thai Knee

Jagermeister, thanks for that. It always bothers me when I watch UFC, pride etc I sit there thinking knee him in the bloomin' face.


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## Odin

Muay Thai Knee said:
			
		

> Jagermeister, thanks for that. It always bothers me when I watch UFC, pride etc I sit there thinking knee him in the bloomin' face.


 
Or elbow him in the back of the head/neck!......but that wouldnt be allowed.(")


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## Muay Thai Knee

That wouldn't be a KO move though. That would be possibly fatal.


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## bobodredd

The thing about UFC et al, is that there are rules, and as 'MuayThai Knee' posted, an instinctive knee would result in disqualification. From what i've seen, a muay thai knee could knock out an opponent diving in for a takedown, or floor grappling stint. OSIT


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## savior

if you watch most streetfighting videos, you'll see that people stand square most of the time.. also when they fight, they have absolutely no guard up and if they are hit (which is usually the case), they do not know how to adept to the confusion

muay thai fighters, as well as other MA, know how to respond to being hit, know WHEN and WHERE to hit an opponent, and have sharper reflexes


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## cfr

bobodredd said:


> The thing about UFC et al, is that there are rules, and as 'MuayThai Knee' posted, an instinctive knee would result in disqualification. From what i've seen, a muay thai knee could knock out an opponent diving in for a takedown, or floor grappling stint. OSIT


 
What do you mean? Knees to the face are legal, just ask Rich Franklin. Am I misunderstanding?


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