# A Nation Of Wimps



## Bob Hubbard (Dec 17, 2004)

* A Nation Of Wimps *





*Author: *Hara Estroff Marano   *Source: *Psychology Today 




*Title: *A NATION OF WIMPS
http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detaila.html?id=11725









Maybe it's the cyclist in the park, trim under his sleek metallic blue helmet, cruising along th dirt path...at three mile an hour. On his tricycle

 Or perhaps it's today's playground, all-rubber-cushioned surface where kids used to skin their knees. And...wait a minute...those aren't little kids playing. Their mommies--and especially their daddies--are in there with them, coplaying or play-by-play coaching. Few take it half-easy on the perimeter benches, as parents used to do, letting the kids figure things out for themselves.

 Then there are the sanitizing gels, with which over a third of parents now send their kids to school, according to a recent survey. Presumably, parents now worry that school bathrooms are not good enough for their children.

 Behold the wholly sanitized childhood, without skinned knees or the occasional C in history. "Kids need to feel badly sometimes," says child psychologist David Elkind, professor at Tufts University. "We learn through experience and we learn through bad experiences. Through failure we learn how to cope."

 Messing up, however, even in the playground, is wildly out of style. Although error and experimentation are the true mothers of success, parents are taking pains to remove failure from the equation. 

*Submitted by and Thanks to: * The good folks at Arts and Letters Daily (http://www.aldaily.com/)

  [*Read Full Story*]


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## Phoenix44 (Dec 17, 2004)

I don't think it's skinned knees they were worried about. Pediatric head injuries in bicycle accidents decreased by about 60% after helmet laws were introduced.

I agree that the occasional C in history is a good thing, though.


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## Scout_379 (Dec 18, 2004)

the clip doesnt do the full article justice.  Altogether it is a very ineresting read.  

 Using helmets is just about being smart, but I think it's more about the parents running with ther hand on the back of the bike for too long.


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## Zepp (Dec 18, 2004)

Great!  Now I have more ammunition for the next time I want to argue with my mother about how she screwed up my sister and I. 

Seriously, this is a good read for anyone who raises or teaches children, or who will some day.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 18, 2004)

I read the artical as well and believe it has some very valid points.


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## TonyM. (Dec 18, 2004)

Nothing new here. Parents have been debating the pros and cons of mollycoddling for millenia. Everyone agrees it is bad and everyone continues to do it.


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## Phoenix44 (Dec 18, 2004)

Zepp said:
			
		

> Now I have more ammunition for the next time I want to argue with my mother about how she screwed up my sister and I.


Tell it to your shrink.  Leave your mom alone.  Another way to put it would be, "You should always give your kids something to tell their shrinks sometime in the future."


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## Zepp (Dec 19, 2004)

Uhh, Phoenix, did you notice the little smiley at the end of my sentence that looked something like this ?  I was kidding.

I did actually print the article out to show it to my mother, but that's because she's a psycologist and I thought she'd be interested in it.


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## Feisty Mouse (Dec 19, 2004)

TonyM. said:
			
		

> Nothing new here. Parents have been debating the pros and cons of mollycoddling for millenia. Everyone agrees it is bad and everyone continues to do it.


 not everyone.  I've met quite a few who have the "that which does not kill you makes you stronger" mentality.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 19, 2004)

Yeah, the "C" in history point and about having to learn from bad experiences....

In my opinion, we should learn from bad experiences as soon as possible while those "bad experiences" are still: finding out that poo taste bad, learning that humans can't fly, long fall on hard surface hurts. See if we learn from bad experiences young, we wont face the bad consequences of learning from bad experiences at age 25 when those equal: jail, courtroom, fines, loosing close friends, drugs, teenage pregnancy, etc. See, the consequence is much smaller as a kid, if you can learn from bad experiences then, its much better for all of us. Did that make sense at all?

7sm


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 19, 2004)

When I was in school, I always heard about "the curve", and "blowing the curve".  When I hit a snag, I had the "Needs Improvement" in red ink....my nephew gets 'feel-good' babble on his.

Growing up, my playground had huge slides, monkey bars, and a ton of swing sets.
Today, that same playground has 1 swingset with 'safety' seats, no slides, no monkey bars...but it does have a little 'play area'.  Most of it is now a grassy field.

We now have helmet laws for bikes.  My mother this last summer gave me the big lecture on how I need one.  I'm 34.  I've done the 'stuntman' bit so often, the old ECW guys are amazed.  I've had at least 1 car-involvement accident.  Never wore helmet, gloves, pads, etc.  I'm still here.

I think sometimes, we worry too much.  Yes, stuff can happen, but should we all walk around in armour 24/7 just in case?  I'm reading a cook book, and there was a warning in there to wear safety glasses.  Y'know, I've never seen anyone on any cooking show wearing em.  Never seen them on Iron Chef.  Not on Emeril, Mario or Alton.  In 20 years of cooking, I've gotten hot oil once, on the eye. That was a few days ago.  Is it risky?  Yup.  But no more than walking down the street, IMO.

Kids are too sheltered, too managed, to controled today.  They need the room to make mistakes, to get hurt, to learn.  Shelter them too much, and too long, and they will be eaten alive by the world.  Is it any wonder kids are fatter today than before?  The 30 minute scheduled play period isn't enough to burn it off...they want to run around, we call it ADD and drug them.  If they act 'different', we tag them with a different name and start 'behavioral modification therapy'.   5 yr old makes a finger gun, goes 'bang bang', and gts a month off for violating the schools 'zero weapons' policy.  6 year old smooches a class mate, and is removed for class for 'sexual harassment'.

You know, if I was in school today, they'd have me executed fast.  I used to play guns all the time...I used to kiss the girls and make em cry....I used to play DnD....oh my gawd!  I even listened to heavy metal and wore a trench coat.  

I truely feel for the kids today...I really do.

I'm going to do my part though.  I'm going to spend some time with my nephew.  He's 10, takes a suplex full tilt and doesn't even blink. And...since I'm the uncle, I'm in charge of the fart jokes.


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## shesulsa (Dec 19, 2004)

Yeah, with all those helmet and seat belt laws, our supply of organ donations has dwindled dramatically.  Fewer people are dying due to accidents now, so there's not as many donor organs to help those with organ damage or disease.  We must be losing many more people to disease than to accident these days.

 Perhaps more tragic is the car seat laws for children.  

 Okay, dark sarcasm over.

 I grew up in L.A. and I was almost kidnapped several times on the few and rare occasions my mom actually let me walk to the store.  Then there were the geek freaks who ganged up on geeks like me  and beat the living snot out of them - one kid at our HS died because he dared to show up.  I was scared crapless that if I didn't go right home my mother would murder me,  chop me up, barbeque me and feed the neighborhood my remains, so I didn't show up to my challenge.

 I dunno.  There are lots of folks who are no worse for the wear, but then there's lots that are better off because of it.

 There's something to be said for exposing children to a measure of danger, and you certainly can't protect them forever.  I think one must pick one's battles.​


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## Lisa (Dec 19, 2004)

I guess I am guilty to an extent of the above.  Things have changed in the world.  There is no doubt.  My outlook on the world changed the day I gave birth to my first child.  Nothing is more precious and nothing deserves my protection more.  I am guilty of play dates when they are younger.  Guilty of coddling them and guilty of being over protective. 

 But when my daughter comes home three or four times a year with a letter from the school board about some "van" following children home and my friends daughter gets followed off the bus and has some idiot expose himself to her and I read things like Shesulsa wrote, then I am glad to be an over protective parent.

 My oldest is spreading her own wings.  I don't know all of her friends really well for she is just making some new ones in her new highschool.  She is a good judge of character so far, and I trust her ideas about people.  She has a sense to weed out the bad and avoid them.  The one thing I always remember is what my friend's mom told me.  If you want to know what kind of kids your children are hanging with, invite them along to family events.  That closeness with the parental units will most likely make the "bad" kids leave cause they won't want to be anywhere near mom and dad.  

 Shesulsa hit the nail on the head... pick your battles.  Have faith in your kids.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 19, 2004)

I'm not saying don't be protective...Gawd only knows I don't want to see anything happen to my nephew.  I'm just saying, moderation, y'know?

It just seems to me, that everything is getting so sanitized, and structured, that the 'spontanuity' and 'randomness' of youth is being lost.  We as adults do the getup, goto work, work, come home, dinner, take the kids to their event (classes, games, shows, etc), come home, and pass out "dance" 5 days a week.  Part of being a kid is just 'doing', randomly, wandering and exploring.  I think it's missing for too many kids today.

The predators are a problem, I admit.  It seems like every time you turn on the tv or read the paper that theres another one out there.  This priest, that teacher, this neighbor, that relative, that friend, that polititian, etc.  Who is there that you can trust?  All you can do, is what you can do, and hope and pray that it is enough.  A key point however, is to do that protecting without seriously impacting the childs ability to interact with others.  I think that means that as time goes on, you must relax the retraint.  

Sometimes, you can go too far.  A person I know, 24, still lives at home, still has a curfew, has never had a 'sleepover', must check in regularly when out, all friends must be 'approved' by the mother, etc.  She's a nice gal, but completely incapable of being on her own, without the maternal management.  I knew a couple that got married to escape controling parents...they've been evicted twice, apartments totally pigstyes...they haven't got a clue when it comes to 'housework'.  Mommy did it all for them.

There has to be a point, or series of points where they are allowed to "grow up".


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## Lisa (Dec 19, 2004)

Bob, 

 I agree with you.  Everything does seem to have the fun or spontanaity choked out of it.  Slowly and surely I am learning to let go.  To allow them the opportunity to be independent.  It is harder for me then it is for them.  I think that is what scares us parents the most, the fear of the unknown and what we read and see and worry is going to happen to them.  Most kids are willing and able to cut the apron string, it is us parents that aren't 

 Like I said... ya gotta have faith in your kids.  My job (and sometimes I have a hard time with this) is not to hold their hand and clear their way through life but to walk along beside them, pick them up when they fall, brush them off and let them go on.


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## Kreth (Dec 20, 2004)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The predators are a problem, I admit.


The predators are a problem because our wonderful judicial system tends to insist on "rehabilitation" rather than punishment, in spite of the fact that studies have shown a marked tendency towards repeat offenses. Personally, I don't see why the ACLU has such an issue with involuntary sterilization of sexual predators (preferably with a dull, rusty spoon)... 

Jeff


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## raedyn (Dec 20, 2004)

I'm a fairly new parent still (only 1 kid, and she's not quite 2), but I'm a pretty relaxed parent. I don't FEEL relaxed, but contrasted with other mothers I know... yeesh!

Like I go out for coffee to an indoor playground with several women with kids ranging in age from 18 months to 4 years. I let my tyke toddle off and do her own thing. I look over regularly and if she's about to jump off of a tower, I go stop her. Or if I hear her crying I go fix it. But I figure that she will learn better if I'm not interfering all the time. I purposely go to this place because I know it is a kid-friendly enviroment and it's a pretty safe place for her. Some of the other moms are so uptight I almost (not quite) feel like I'm a negligent mother. They're contsantly stopping their kids from going here, touching that, don't put that in yr mouth, blahblahblah. They don't like one coffee place in town because they wash the tables down with a wet cloth instead of spraying them all with disinfectant between customers. *rollseyes* I worry that these women are gonna give themselves ulcers and their kids complexes from trying so hard to protect them.

I think the worried parents are coming from the right place. They are just doing what they can to protect their kids. But I think you have to find a balance. I put my kid in a proper car seat, and I don't let her bath alone, but I also let her explore on her own as often as possible - with mom nearby watching, but keeping my mouth shut.


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## raedyn (Dec 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> The predators are a problem because our wonderful judicial system tends to insist on "rehabilitation" rather than punishment


Well, it CLAIMS to insist on rehabilitation, but it doesn't do a good job of the things that are shown to make a difference in reducing re-offending.
But that's a different thread!


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## loki09789 (Dec 20, 2004)

Scout_379 said:
			
		

> the clip doesnt do the full article justice. Altogether it is a very ineresting read.
> 
> Using helmets is just about being smart, but I think it's more about the parents running with ther hand on the back of the bike for too long.


Or calling schools/teachers about issues like "Johnny thinks that you don't like him and is worried that it is hurting his grades" or trying to get their kids off the hook for cheating/plagerism...you name it.

Accountability is out of vogue for kids now.  They can't be frustrated, mad, disappointed....only happy and fulfilled....

even though educational philosophies talk about a 'state of agitation' (whether that means frustration, fear, curiosity, ambition....) as the best mentallity for learning to imprint on a person.


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## Kreth (Dec 20, 2004)

I live in a college town, so I see first-hand every day the effects of our current generation's upbringing. The majority of today's college kids expect special treatment in everything from traffic tickets to cover charges for bar bands. I especially get a kick out of the underage college girls who will flirt with me (a part-time bouncer) in an attempt to get into a bar, and then pull a Sybil and start calling me every name in the book (most of them not allowed here) when they realize I'm not playing their game.

Jeff


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## loki09789 (Dec 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I live in a college town, so I see first-hand every day the effects of our current generation's upbringing. The majority of today's college kids expect special treatment in everything from traffic tickets to cover charges for bar bands. I especially get a kick out of the underage college girls who will flirt with me (a part-time bouncer) in an attempt to get into a bar, and then pull a Sybil and start calling me every name in the book (most of them not allowed here) when they realize I'm not playing their game.
> 
> Jeff


I gave my 9th graders a week (5 full class periods) to work on a final essay and a project that was suppose to help them identify an author's writing style (pick a chapter and cite every example of certain lit. devices - repetition, imagery, long (40+ word) sentences....).  I also made it clear that, though I wasn't assigning 'homework,' that they would have to plan their time well to make sure they met the due date of FRI.

They were, literally in some cases, in tears over how it was 'too much' and that I wasn't being 'fair.'


I was trying to teach a series of lessons on outlining and organizaing essays to help them.  They insisted on talking after multiple reminders during one class.  I stopped teaching and told them that the essay would be a take home exam that was started in class.  THey immediately said that I did it because I hated their class.  I responded by saying that if they were so confident that they didn't need to pay attention to the help I was offering, I wasn't going to waste their time or mine by teaching something that they felt didn't need to be covered - 'hating' was nothing to do with my motive.

I think some of it is the developmental stage, but the way the authority structure has been set up around that 'stage' is letting them think that they can get away with murder.


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## raedyn (Dec 20, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I think some of it is the developmental stage, but the way the authority structure has been set up around that 'stage' is letting them think that they can get away with murder.


 The developmental stage is a huge part of it. I probably would have said you were a totally mean teacher when I was in grade nine. But a few years and life experiences later (9th grade is only 8 yrs ago for me, but it seems like a lifetime ago) I think yr approach is entirely reasonable. You're brave to work with teenagers. It's a challenging (and exciting) time.


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## Flatlander (Dec 20, 2004)

Well, I can't count the number of times I have almost killed myself, destroyed/burned down something of great value or importance, or otherwise screwed something up as a youth.  Every mistake I made has taught me something, and a lesson learned alone is a lesson more likely retained.  Of course, I understand that I should have been reprimanded for spraying starter fluid in nifty patterns on the workshop floor and setting them ablaze, or sneaking outside with dad's shotgun and a couple of 'misplaced' shells when left alone to see how bad a 12 gauge really kicks on my 12 year old shoulder, but parents can't catch everything.

If we can provide our children with the necessary tools to use their own minds to make their own decisions, that's probably the best we can do.

If mischevous behaviour is genetic, I'll have my hands full.  But hopefully, my daughter will have been equipped with the appropriate skill set to, at the very least, stay out of danger's way.


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## raedyn (Dec 20, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> If mischevous behaviour is genetic, I'll have my hands full. But hopefully, my daughter will have been equipped with the appropriate skill set to, at the very least, stay out of danger's way.


 Oh great. I have so much to look forward to.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Dec 20, 2004)

I consider myself extremely lucky to have grown up the way I did and when I did.   I started life off in my yard.  Later my world expanded to about a two block area around our house.  There were plenty of kids to play with in this neighborhood.  I could be two blocks away and hear my mother whistle for me for super.  Around fifth or sixth grade I was allowed to ride anywhere in our small town as long as I was home when the street lights came on.  About that time I also got my bb gun.  A friend and I would walk through town a few blocks, with our rifles in hand, to the creek where we hiked, fished, and shot at snakes from the top of the bridge.   If I ever have children I would want to raise them much like I was.  My niece and nephew are growing up in the same neighborhood I did in almost the same way I did.  My nephew rides wheelies down the street and tries to get "air" off the ramps he builds in our public street.  I don't worry about him being subject to peer pressure as he gets older because like me he's an individual and capable of making responsible decisions for himself.


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## shesulsa (Dec 20, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Well, I can't count the number of times I have almost killed myself, destroyed/burned down something of great value or importance, or otherwise screwed something up as a youth. Every mistake I made has taught me something, and a lesson learned alone is a lesson more likely retained. Of course, I understand that I should have been reprimanded for spraying starter fluid in nifty patterns on the workshop floor and setting them ablaze, or sneaking outside with dad's shotgun and a couple of 'misplaced' shells when left alone to see how bad a 12 gauge really kicks on my 12 year old shoulder, but parents can't catch everything.


 :erg::uhyeah: _*shesulsa has renewed respect for Flatlander now*_ :asian:

 Raedyn ... *sigh* ... good luck.


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## SenseiBear (Dec 20, 2004)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The predators are a problem, I admit.  It seems like every time you turn on the tv or read the paper that theres another one out there...


In my opinion, this is an improper risk assesment.  Yes, there are bad people out there, and random violence does occur, but the attention we focus on it causes people to be more afraid of it than needed.

In 2000, 41,945 people in the US died in auto accidents, compared to 15,517 people who were murdered. (http://www.unitedjustice.com/stories/stats.html)

And random violence only accounts for 14% of murders...  So you (or your children) are about 20 times as likely to die on the highway than being abducted/murdered...  But how many parents who don't want their kids walking to the park because it is too dangerous don't think twice about piling them into a couple of tons of steel, plastic and glass and driving at 70 mph 4 feet behind the car in front of them.

Don't pay attention to the news, learn what the dangers really are, who is likely to hurt you.

from http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm#relate


> *Victim/offender relationship*
> 
> Males were more likely to be violently victimized by a stranger, and females were more likely to be victimized by a friend, an acquaintance, or an intimate.
> During 2003 --
> ...


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