# Using Control-consequences and punishment



## KenpoSterre (Aug 28, 2006)

As an instructor how do you handle it when students dont use control in the classroom? What if a student is repeatedly striking a women in the breast. How do you handle people not following directions(repeatedly).

In my school if you don't use control they make the students take off their groin guard and continue sparring. If it was a one time offense or they were just going to fast(say we were supposed to do halfspeed and a student goes fullspeed) is ten pushups on the nuckles. Do you think this is harsh?

When a student disobeys you what are your punishments?

KenpoSterre


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## Kacey (Aug 28, 2006)

KenpoSterre said:
			
		

> As an instructor how do you handle it when students dont use control in the classroom? What if a student is repeatedly striking a women in the breast. How do you handle people not following directions(repeatedly).
> 
> In my school if you don't use control they make the students take off their groin guard and continue sparring. If it was a one time offense or they were just going to fast(say we were supposed to do halfspeed and a student goes fullspeed) is ten pushups on the nuckles. Do you think this is harsh?
> 
> ...


It's hard to give a specific answer to this one - the answer is too situational.  Is the student a child or an adult?  What was the exact offense?  How many times has the incident (or similar incidents) occurred?  Was it intentional or due to a lack of control?  What is the student's rank?  Does the student understand what, and why, s/he did wrong?  Did anyone get hurt, and, if so, how badly?  All of these, and potentially more, will be part of my determination of consequences.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 28, 2006)

I think making them take their groin protection off is a huge mistake.  Seems like they'd be opening them selves up for a lawsuit if an injury occurred.

The schools I've been in, there was always the "bruiser".  If you showed a lack of control or something similar, you ended up training with/sparring him, after the instructor had a quiet word with him.  I was the bruiser for a while in one school.  Can be a rewarding job.

Jeff

Jeff


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## Carol (Aug 30, 2006)

I'm not an instructor, but....male or female if I saw a close friend or family member (or God forbid even myself) being repeatedly struck in the sex organs, I'll be reporting the incident to 911 before anything else.  The instructor can explain his/her side of the story to the police.  

It is absolutely inexcusable for an instructor to have lost control on the mat to the extent where students are being sexually assaulted.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 30, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I'm not an instructor, but....male or female if I saw a close friend or family member (or God forbid even myself) being repeatedly struck in the sex organs, I'll be reporting the incident to 911 before anything else. The instructor can explain his/her side of the story to the police.
> 
> *It is absolutely inexcusable for an instructor to have lost control on the mat to the extent where students are being sexually assaulted*.


 
so a woman getting struck on the breasts constitutes a sexual assault?

In some self defense classes......women are taught to target a man's groin; is that sexual assault also?


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## KenpoSterre (Aug 30, 2006)

its seldom happens that people are asked to take off their groin guard. I have never seen it happen but rather heard it form one of the instructors. I reckon it must happen if the student is seriously hurting students even after given warning and made to do pushups. If a purple belt accidently strikes someone too hard but they are not bleeding they get a reprimanding. IF a blue belt however hurts someone he gets pushups. ITs a matter of rank, injury, experience, and who they hurt I think.


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## Kacey (Aug 30, 2006)

The problem comes in when one uses physical injury as a means of punishment for causing physical injury - I mean, what are you teaching someone if they hurt someone, and the punishment is that others are allowed to hurt them?  The most obvious answer is that you are teaching someone that it's okay to hurt someone:  you have caused pain, therefore it is okay for others to cause you pain.  It's not a lesson I would want to teach.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 30, 2006)

i think the best punishment for someone causing a disruption is simply asking them to leave.
It's their dime and if they wanna waste it being a jerk.......tell them thanks and send them out the door.


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## Aikironin (Aug 31, 2006)

Years ago, I had a judo instructor that if one of his students was being a bit excessive to lower ranks, we would immediately go to a round robin like training, where he would insert himself into the rotation about 2-3 persons ahead of the offender.  Once he became paired up with the offending party, he would "spice" it up a bit, if you catch my meaning.  And everyone knew what was happening and why it happened.  The offending student either a) left never to return or b) attitude improved tremendously and repeat offenses were non existent.  
This may not be the most desired course of action, but it is an effective one.


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## zDom (Aug 31, 2006)

The rule around our TKD dojang was,

"The lower belt sets the pace" meaning, the level of contact.

Pretty much the same sort of deal as Aikironin mentioned.

If an upper belt was too hard on lower belts, they soon found themselves spending a lot of time paired up with the instructor who was more than happy to go as hard and heavy as the offender wanted.


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## Sirius (Sep 5, 2006)

Well, I'm not an instructor but at the school I used to go to there was a huge problem with excessive force. For example, my sister got a deep tissue bruise (through a hogu) that left her with labored breathing and chest pain for about six weeks. The doctor told her that sustained impacts of that nature could permanently hurt her. My sister is about 5'7" and at the time 140 lbs. The man who hit her so hard was over six feet tall and about 210. Also, one of my good friends was about a month shy of his twelfth birthday when he was intentionally struck in the jaw so powerfully that not only did it dislocate, but there was a fracture as well (this kid weighed about 78 lbs at the time. The man who hit him, about 130). My other sister was once struck so hard that she collapsed and could not breathe-she was literally screaming for breath. In all three cases, the perpetrators were not punished and at the time, actively encouraged. So I take this very seriously. 

At a good school, I think these offenses would have been taken seriously and the people punished, rather than cheered on (as is what happened in all three cases). TKD as a sport attracts a lot of ego and a lot of people with gargantuan chips on their shoulders and a lot of machismo to vent. If I ran my own school and an adult intentionally hit someone far too hard, especially if that person were much smaller than they were, I would punish them then publicly and if the behavior persisted, I would bar them from sparring. With kids, I'd go to their parents and again, if it persisted, I'd bar them from sparring until they learned a little self-control. You're not supposed to injure your classmates. Anyway, it's incredibly rude.


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## Grenadier (Sep 6, 2006)

As martial artists, we should always be practicing control.  We are responsible for watching out for each others' health and well-being when participating in classroom activities.  We are not there to deliberately injure our classmates / students.  

I must agree with BlackCatBonz.  If the offender refuses to tone it down, and especially refuses to cooperate after given multiple warnings, then I would gladly shred his contract, and tell him never to come back.  Any further attempts at coming into the school would be a matter of tresspassing.  

Someone who is honestly at our dojo to learn, is going to get the message after several warnings.  If it gets to the point of giving a stern warning, or even an ultimatum, then even the least intelligent of people can "get the message."  

If someone just shrugs off the warnings, then that's a person that I do not want at the dojo.  It's detrimental to the overall well-being, and when playing by the numbers, I'll gladly cut off a cancerous growth to save the rest of the body.


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## Drac (Sep 6, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:


> i think the best punishment for someone causing a disruption is simply asking them to leave.
> It's their dime and if they wanna waste it being a jerk.......tell them thanks and send them out the door.


 
A good answer...


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## Sigung86 (Sep 7, 2006)

These various answers are interesting... What I'd like to see is how long each person, who answered, has been active in the arts.  

Reason I'm asking is that some of these answers are really "Old School" - No cops.  No lawsuits.  Instant retribution.

Some are "New" Call 911 (not saying that's bad), walking him/her out the door to never return after repeated admonitions.

Just curious.

Of course, having said all that, let me qualify me.

I've been in the arts since 1962-3 time.  Been through some hard schools, and some new age schools.  My students, who I teach for no cost, spar with bare knuckles and feet, and takedowns allowed.  This is quite the teaching aid when it comes to learning control.  I also inform all students that your control is reciprocated... If you go hard, the other student goes hard... You hit too often, too hard, you suddenly can find yourself a target.  It's amazing how that tempers the fire of the sparring...


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## Bigshadow (Sep 7, 2006)

With us, they will get to train with the instructor for a quick demonstration of "How it is done".


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## matt.m (Sep 7, 2006)

zDom said:


> The rule around our TKD dojang was,
> 
> "The lower belt sets the pace" meaning, the level of contact.
> 
> ...


 

Yes that is the best policy.  Really humbles a bully or someone who just doesn't care for using control.  With little kids it is pushup time.  Mountain climbers are good to.  

I taught a beginners youth judo course and the boys would go full bore on girls, I made those kids strong.


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## Sam (Sep 7, 2006)

Well, at my school, this problem only occurs with a few egotistical teenaged boys and one or two of the old timers who have not caught up with recent times.

My nickname by one instructor is "The Enforcer", and he usually pairs me up with these people - not because I hit them with equal force, (although sometimes I do), but because I can use finesse to score on these brutes, and always let them set the pace. The theory is that it is embarassing for people like this to be scored upon relentlessly by a (sometimes lower ranking) smaller, girl. :whip1: I am in the unique position of being skilled enough to handle these idiots, but looking sweet and innocent... Maybe I am more evenly tempered because I am the fairer sex. :angel:

Or maybe I just love the look of shock on their face when I pull something like a spinning rear kick.


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