# Comparisons between Systema/ROSS and Bujinkan arts



## pknox (Oct 23, 2003)

While browsing around and reading about both arts, I have begun to think that they perhaps share at least some common basis in their philosophy.  Systema and ROSS both seem to strive for freedom of movement, where the practitioner is not bound by the formal patterns of orthodox technique.  Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (BBT) also seems to place a great deal of emphasis on henka, or developing a unique style of response that is not bound by pre-set patterns, but instead responds to events as they happen, using whatever skills and attributes the practitioner may have available to them.  Does anyone else feel that there is a philosophical link, in terms of movement and response strategies, between these two RMA and BBT?  Has there been any cases where individuals have cross-studied in both disciplines, and if so, was there any overlap?


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## NYCRonin (Oct 23, 2003)

I know there are a couple in the Mtalk roster who have had  experience in both arts - BJK and Systema. I am one of them.
BJK is closer to the classical MA than Systema - in movement and training a students responses to attack. Systema is MUCH more free-form. It would not take any martial training at all to discern the differences between practitioners.
BJK has a large body of 'tactics' that a practitioner at least becomes familiar with. 
Though an art preserved by the military, there is less of an emphasis in tactics and ancient weaponry in Systema (although one will study, if even briefly, skills against military-style attacks - snipers and such - and perhaps even the use of firearms, in particular the AK-47).
To both arts, movement is movement - the knife thrust is a thrust as is a punch. Still, I have found BJK more stylized in its movement, in general; but still encourages free reaction in its members. It does not always succeed, many stay at the technique level - at least until they have years of training. Systema actively attempts to keep a student 'free' fro the beginning.
Philosophically? That is a tough one. In many ways - we would have to compare classicalism against intuitivism. This is a chapter in itself. 
Rituals play an important part of the higher levels of BJK training...you wont see this in Systema at all. 
I have had interesting discussions with an advanced member of our family that contrast certain philosophical/religious precepts of both arts. My comrade, whose name you would all recognize; sees little in common. I see quite a few, probably because I am more familiar with the densho scrolls of BJK and the writings of Dr. Hatsumi, Mr. Hoban and other BJK noteables. Ultimately, they both have 'goodness' and 'following the path of God' (please do not get hung up on the use of the word 'God' here, let it suffice to say that we are referring to ones individual understanding of God).
A term that would be acceptable to members of both communities might be "To become a force for good in the world".
There are those, however; in the RMA who view oriental arts and philosophies as detremental to the human spirit and soul - and are quite adamant in their belief. They have their reasons and I will not attempt to speak for them. Perhaps, because I have a more direct experience with BJK, I see things differently.

There has also been the dreaded 'political' monster that is alive and well in the larger BJK community that we in Systema have (so far and hopefully forever) avoided for the most part. The certification of a student or instructor does not go through the many steps (with requisite 'testing' fees sent to Japan). I saw this in other arts - the political monster is always hungry and prefers cash as its favorite food. Dont get me wrong - business is business...and the BJK community is huge compared to ours. Its just that we are small and have avoided it all - I personally like it. 


As far as overlap goes - I have found little in the actual 'techniques', have found the philosophies similar on many points and believe them both to be amongst the most important contributions to the worlds martial knowledge to emerge in the last 50 years. Systema is just getting started finding its place in the MA community as a whole.


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## Jay Bell (Oct 23, 2003)

Bujinkan and RMA have a lot in common...on the other end, they have very little.

In Japanese budo, there is a concept called "Shu-Ha-Ri".  Essentially, it is learning the form of a technique, changing the form of the technique (henka) and throwing the technique away.

In RMA, it is more "Ha-Ri".  There is a principle that isn't engrained in one specific pattern (waza).  As the situation changes, even in the beginning stages, the result adapts with what is happening.  One could also say that RMA exists plainly in the "Ri" realm.

Bujinkan spends less emphasis on the "Shu" stage of training then most Japanese budo I have encountered....making it closer, in principle, to RMA.

As far as a mental approach, I feel that they are very similar.  They both have a "Ninpo" approach to them...and this is found through every stage of training.  I often joke with people that I never began to understand Ninpo until a Russian taught it.

If we look at structural similarities, I personally think there are none.  There are no ranks in Systema....and even without them, on the whole, people understand their place in things.  Everyone in RMA tends to have a beginners approach to training, regardless of years served.  In Bujinkan, things aren't quite so clear.  People tend to pay attention to a Dan number then what the person has to share**.  In Bujinkan...the "beginner's approach" tends to be something sought after as ego takes seat.

**I witnessed at Tai Kai green belts who were sluffed off as training partners by Dan grades from other parts of the country.  As I sat back and watched (3 person group...I was watching people around me during my turn out), these two Dan grades *could* have learned a great deal from the green belts....if only their egos and attitudes were left at the door.  They had difficulties walking, much less working on what Hatsumi sensei had shown.

One thing that is a great similarity is the idea of using what is at hand.  Many times in Bujinkan, techniques are shown with a weapon...and how the technique can remain the same, no matter what is available.  This also exists in RMA.


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## sniperB-4 (Oct 25, 2003)

having studied both arts (even though i am very new at RMA) I can see many similarities between the two. My ninpo instructor always focused on natural body movement and relaxation. From what I have seen of systema from Vlad's videos and from Brian is that even though ninpo/ninjitsu have this in their system, systema takes it to another level of function. Also, ninpo/ninjitsu arts are tec. focused where as systema is not. The thing that i enjoy is that there is less hype, bad attitudes and fakes in the RMA as opposed to ninpo/ninjitsu.


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