# Ground Seminar in Kenpo????



## Fastmover (Jul 23, 2003)

Im curious about the picture posted from the Homecoming camp
that shows Mr. Labounty on the ground doing an armbar? There
has been thread after thread about ground fighting within the
Kenpo system and excuss me for one more but I found this picture
to be very interesting if this was indeed taught at a Kenpo camp.

To anyone who was there or knows, what context was this presented at the seminar? Im am also curious which technique..
...........within the Kenpo system this is refering to or was it
something outside of Kenpo system that was taught???

Please take it easy on me!!!

Comments and Ideas?


John


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 23, 2003)

Fastmover:  Dang!  You beat me to it.  

I'd bet on outside.  Question is...is it the Zen Budokai Aiki-Jujitsu armbar or is it the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu armbar?


----------



## Wes Idol (Jul 23, 2003)

Mr. LaBounty did not talk about any specific art, just ways of how to break the arm from that position, period.  In doing so, the fulcrum could be the hip, the thigh...but not the groin.

WI, HI
UKS


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 23, 2003)

First Im not going to make a comment about using the groin as a leverage point to break the arm.......I could get into trouble! LOL!

I always enjoyed learning and working these armbars. Im sure others ave experienced this, you spead part of the class working on your top game and then when it came time to train
or spar, you never got the chance to do the armbar because you were on bottom the rest of class. In fact I think I was on bottom for a good six months to a year!!!!! Yes Im a slow learner!

This brings up a very good point maybe? Since some in Kenpo do not work on the ground, how in the world are they ever going to be able to get into a position to break the arm? Its my opinion, mine only, Breaking the arm is the easy part, positioning yourself there to do it is the hard part. How do you folks out there within the Kenpo curriculum address achieving a superior position?

John


----------



## Iron Dog (Jul 23, 2003)

Mr. Idol is right, Mr. Labounty does not mention any particular art. In fact at the Seattle seminar he wanted us to know that what he shows are "failure drills" (I hope that's what he called them). That is, taking targets of opportunity that present themselves when the Kenpo techniques fail or are overcome. I know he is versed in Ne-waza and other ground work, but he makes it very clear that he is a Kenpo man. He is also very good at chokes and takedowns.
I'm not sure what he was doing in Pasadena, but his focus has been on these failure drills in the last two or three seminars I've taken from him. My first art was Ju-Jutsu and while purists could find fault IMHO I think he is trying to make it possible for every one to do them. Hope this helps..
Patrick


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *First Im not going to make a comment about using the groin as a leverage point to break the arm.......I could get into trouble! LOL!
> 
> I always enjoyed learning and working these armbars. Im sure others ave experienced this, you spead part of the class working on your top game and then when it came time to train
> ...



If you'll examine the extensions to the EPAK curriculum you'll see a myriad of ways to put yourself in that position, and many others I might add.    There's a beautiful guillotine choke for the extension of Repeated Devastation, and a nice over the shoulder arm lock in the extension of Raining Claw, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Elfan (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *This brings up a very good point maybe? Since some in Kenpo do not work on the ground, how in the world are they ever going to be able to get into a position to break the arm? Its my opinion, mine only, Breaking the arm is the easy part, positioning yourself there to do it is the hard part. How do you folks out there within the Kenpo curriculum address achieving a superior position?
> John *



Those Wonderful Considerations Listed somewhere in Infinite Insights:

Attitude->Environment->Range->Position->Maneuver->Target->Weapon->Angle->Cover

I'm bringing this up to make 2 point:

1) Kenpoists look at this position sutf.
2) "breaking the arm is the easy part, positioning yourself there to do it is the hard part." This is "backwards" thinking.     Any grappler I've ever worked with controlled position, then chose the best maneuver, target, weapon etc. to get the desired effect. 

So to answer your question, on how a kenpoists is ever going to get into this position to break their arm... well they aren't, or aren't going to think about it like that at least.  They are going to control Attitude, Environment, Range, Position etc. and possibly choose locking the arm long as a tactic if they so choose.

This wasn't meant as a slight to you, just trying to show how a kenpoists thinks. Does this make sense?


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> 
> Any grappler I've ever worked with controlled position, then chose the best maneuver, target, weapon etc. to get the desired effect.
> 
> ...


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 23, 2003)

Please explain so that I might understand.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Please explain so that I might understand. *



I'm not  holding back, it's just you're not familiar with the material so it would be a moot point.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Iron Dog (Jul 23, 2003)

Fast Mover: I'm with you and the whole part of making mistakes is what I think Mr. labounty is talking about. I don't want to speak for him and I wasn't in Pasadena, but what Mr. O'briant and Elfan(?) were saying sounds pretty good to me, though I'm not familiar with the techniques they were speaking of ...yet.
I studied Ju-Jutsu (Japanese) for about 15 years and the arm bar was certainly one of those opportunities that Mr. Labounty speaks of. But you're right, why? I think it's one of those extensions to a problem that has arisen and one way to handle it. Now that I'm back in American Kenpo, the opportunities are endless one more tool in the tool box. Many people simply do not, can not and will not make the proper entry into most of the submission holds. But I think there is an chance they may want to know more and they can choose to stay within this wonderful system and add to it, or go to a qualified instructor in the grappling arts and spend a long time there. That way if they stay in that art for 15 years, they'll know what a: broken arm, 3 dislocated shoulders, torn knee cartliage and being choked out 500 times is like, especially at 56 years of life
I'm learning a lot from this thread about Kenpo, thanks to you and all....and I don't think your a trouble maker...
Patrick


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *I'm not  holding back, it's just you're not familiar with the material so it would be a moot point.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Clyde you assume too much because you dont know me at all. I have been in Kenpo since 1980 so feel free to explain yourself and how you do things. Thats the point of these discussions is to get different points of view. As always I respect you enough to value your opinion or I wouldnt ask. Would I be wrong to expect the same respect from you? If you do not feel like discussing these things why do you feel the need to make comments? 

By the way How long have you been at Kenpo, Just curious?


----------



## Michael Billings (Jul 23, 2003)

Sigung Labounty had us rolling around on the ground at NCKKA Spirit Camps and his "Gatherings" back in the early 1980's.  His experience originally in Judo, branched and grew as did Kenpo.  Japanese Ju-Jitsu and hard style Shotokan mixed in, then Kenpo from the get go.  

Eclectic?  ... Heck, I know for a fact he has forgotten more than I have learned in my 24 years in Kenpo, not to mention the Take-Ones-Dough I did for 3 years and Shotokan before that.  He just plane humbles you - and it happens all at once, real fast.  Then you have to break out the Dit Da Jow or Tiger Balm.  

Oss


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Clyde you assume too much because you dont know me at all. I have been in Kenpo since 1980 so feel free to explain yourself and how you do things. Thats the point of these discussions is to get different points of view. As always I respect you enough to value your opinion or I wouldnt ask. Would I be wrong to expect the same respect from you? If you do not feel like discussing these things why do you feel the need to make comments?
> 
> By the way How long have you been at Kenpo, Just curious? *



Are you familiar with the entire technique curriculum for the EPAK as outlined in Book 5 Infinite Insights?    If not, then it would be a futile effort on my part.     I've been studying the system of Kenpo for a mere 17 years.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Sigung Labounty had us rolling around on the ground at NCKKA Spirit Camps and his "Gatherings" back in the early 1980's.  His experience originally in Judo, branched and grew as did Kenpo.  Japanese Ju-Jitsu and hard style Shotokan mixed in, then Kenpo from the get go.
> 
> Then you have to break out the Dit Da Jow or Tiger Balm.
> ...



Its good to see fellow Kenpoist taking all things into consideration and using every tool inside and outside of Kenpo to become more effective. Its these type of individuals I respect the most. 

There is a time and place with the  preparatory self defense considerations taken into account in going to the ground as well as staying on your feet. Having the vacabulary to be successful at each is important I feel. 

By the way Micheal your comment about the Dit Da Jow and Tiger Balm, you seem to know me all too well.

Be Good


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Iron Dog _
> *Mr. Idol is right, Mr. Labounty does not mention any particular art. In fact at the Seattle seminar he wanted us to know that what he shows are "failure drills" (I hope that's what he called them). That is, taking targets of opportunity that present themselves when the Kenpo techniques fail or are overcome. I know he is versed in Ne-waza and other ground work, but he makes it very clear that he is a Kenpo man. He is also very good at chokes and takedowns.
> I'm not sure what he was doing in Pasadena, but his focus has been on these failure drills in the last two or three seminars I've taken from him. My first art was Ju-Jutsu and while purists could find fault IMHO I think he is trying to make it possible for every one to do them. Hope this helps..
> Patrick *



Interesting post.  The drills sound very good.  Its definately worth having something that you can use, if you find yourself getting into a jam.  Its also interesting though, that while he makes it clear that he is a Kenpo man, that he would still fall back on something from another art?  Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, so forgive me if I am.  Thats just the way it sounds to me.  I say this due to the purists that seem determined when they say there is no need to study anything else, yet Mr. Labounty seems to state the complete opposite?  Sounds to me like it would be a good idea to have a little crosstraining under your belt if you find yourself getting jammed up!

Mike


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 24, 2003)

Jeez, I go home for one night and I come back and instead of talking about how wonderful the Pasadena homecoming was, we are talking about Kenpo on the ground and cross-training again.  

Woo-hoo!  Let the rehash throw-downs begin!


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *When you are referring to getting to the positions, are you referring to the standing aspect, the ground, or both??
> 
> As for standing, a lock is not something you should look for, its something that you happen to fall into.  The value of the lock flow comes into play here.  As for submitting the person.  Well, if you are lucky to find yourself with an armlock, why control the person with it when you can just snap the arm?  Of course, this all depends on the situation.  Not every one that you find yourself in, is going to warrant a break.  Sometimes its just a controlling situation.
> ...


If a person trains to take advantage of the long arm while in a contact manipulation situation, it should not matter wheather you  are standing or on the ground. I see nothing wrong with looking for counters. Could you explain why it is a bad idea.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Clyde you assume too much because you dont know me at all. I have been in Kenpo since 1980 so feel free to explain yourself and how you do things. Thats the point of these discussions is to get different points of view. As always I respect you enough to value your opinion or I wouldnt ask. Would I be wrong to expect the same respect from you? If you do not feel like discussing these things why do you feel the need to make comments?
> 
> By the way How long have you been at Kenpo, Just curious? *


Why don't you ask Clyde to just pretend we are familiar with kenpo so he can explain why groundwork is only valuable when taught as an extension to the myriad of techniques that he has been taught. If isolating ground techs is wrong perhaps he could explain why instead of just telling us we would not understand until we became as enlightened as he.


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Jeez, I go home for one night and I come back and instead of talking about how wonderful the Pasadena homecoming was, we are talking about Kenpo on the ground and cross-training again.
> 
> Woo-hoo!  Let the rehash throw-downs begin! *



Hey, at least I didnt start it this time!!

Mike


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Hey, at least I didnt start it this time!!
> 
> Mike *


I do this only in your name.


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *If a person trains to take advantage of the long arm while in a contact manipulation situation, it should not matter wheather you  are standing or on the ground. I see nothing wrong with looking for counters. Could you explain why it is a bad idea. *



Not quite sure what you're saying here??  I never said anything about anything being a bad idea?  In reference to the armbar that was shown in the pic of Mr Labounty, I was referring to if the arm is properly secured against the body, and you are in the proper position on the ground--IE- close to the opp---then that arm bar is pretty hard to counter.  Of course you want to be able to counter a lock..I never said that you shouldnt, so I'm not sure where you are coming from here.  Please explain?

MJS


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 24, 2003)

Mike:  I think I'll just be quiet and watch TOD, Clyde, and Sigung86 fight it out on this and a couple of other threads.  Can you believe the latest battle of words started over a question of whether Kenpo was Athenian or Spartan?  No wonder we have so many separate associations in Kenpo!


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *I do this only in your name. *



I can feel the love!!


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Mike:  I think I'll just be quiet and watch TOD, Clyde, and Sigung86 fight it out on this and a couple of other threads.  Can you believe the latest battle of words started over a question of whether Kenpo was Athenian or Spartan?  No wonder we have so many separate associations in Kenpo! *



I agree!!   

Mike


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

you said it was a bad idea to look for an armbar, and I'm saying it is not. My statements are not in reference to countering armbars. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Mike:  I think I'll just be quiet and watch TOD, Clyde, and Sigung86 fight it out on this and a couple of other threads.  Can you believe the latest battle of words started over a question of whether Kenpo was Athenian or Spartan?  No wonder we have so many separate associations in Kenpo! *


I never put the art in either catagory. I was refering to "human behavior" that song the Sugar Cubes did before Bjork left the band.


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *you said it was a bad idea to look for an armbar, and I'm saying it is not. My statements are not in reference to countering armbars. Sorry for the confusion. *



Ok--gottcha!  A little confusion on my end to--appologize for that on my end.  Let me say that again.  Considering that there are numerous locks, and in the heat of battle things move quickly, I guess I was trying to say that rather than sit there and say, "I have to get this arm bar." you should take advantage of whatever is given to you.  If the armbar is there, take it, if its a wrist throw, take it, a finger lock, shoulder lock, etc, etc.

Depending how you are positioned and how your opp. is positioned, will depend on what type of lock you get.

Mike


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Ok--gottcha!  A little confusion on my end to--appologize for that on my end.  Let me say that again.  Considering that there are numerous locks, and in the heat of battle things move quickly, I guess I was trying to say that rather than sit there and say, "I have to get this arm bar." you should take advantage of whatever is given to you.  If the armbar is there, take it, if its a wrist throw, take it, a finger lock, shoulder lock, etc, etc.
> 
> Depending how you are positioned and how your opp. is positioned, will depend on what type of lock you get.
> ...


Ok, I'll agree with the wish factor thing. I do feel that the armbar is almost always presenting itself but your thesis is sound. I feel the same pitfalls await us with basic kenpo techs as well; you can't force those either, they either present themselves or they do not.


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *When you are referring to getting to the positions, are you referring to the standing aspect, the ground, or both??  Getting into the position is the first thing.  If you position yourself properly and grab the arm properly, you should not even have your back totally on the ground, before the other person taps from the pain.  Staying in tight, and having the arm married to your chest, you should get about half way down before the person taps.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _



????????????

Where is the post??

MJS


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Why don't you ask Clyde to just pretend we are familiar with kenpo so he can explain why groundwork is only valuable when taught as an extension to the myriad of techniques that he has been taught. If isolating ground techs is wrong perhaps he could explain why instead of just telling us we would not understand until we became as enlightened as he. *



Ancient Kenpo secret my friend.  Can't share knowledge until you are ready for it my son!!  LOL!

MJS


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *When you are referring to getting to the positions, are you referring to the standing aspect, the ground, or both??  Getting into the position is the first thing.  If you position yourself properly and grab the arm properly, you should not even have your back totally on the ground, before the other person taps from the pain.  Staying in tight, and having the arm married to your chest, you should get about half way down before the person taps.
> 
> 
> Mike *



Sorry about the last post I messed up............again!


Anyway.....As I was saying breaking the arm while sitting back
is the easy part....maybe. From the mounted position, across side, or knee to the stomach if the guy on bottom knows what he is doing the arm bar may not present itself: HOWEVER, other things will present itself. If all you know is an armbar then the chances of being successful are a lot less. Here is why. When on bottom you must control your elbows and keep them in ...or  in Kenpo terms anchored. If the guy on bottom does this it will be hard to dig for the arm bar. Im assuming for the moment that we all know that extending the arms in anyway while on bottom sets up the arm bar. Good example how some Kenpo techniques can get you into trouble. It is for this reason I like to roll with Kenpo guys...they dont anchor their elbows and because of this they make my job easy. The key on the ground to being successful in defeating your opponent is having a full vocabulary of motion to fall back on. If the guy on bottom has his elbows tight against him then go for the choke or punch. As he defends the choke or punch go back to the armbar. Choke..Armbar..Choke..punch..Armbar...and back-in-forth. Defending this attack with be difficult. The point is your creating a reactionary set up and beating him with his response. From my experience from the mounted position the armbar "isnt just there" and I cant just grab the arm into position...unless the guy just doesnt know what he is doing. I have to work and attack to set it up which is what I meant by positioning yourself is the hard part. 

Also the guys that have those big gun arms that are very strong may not allow you to simply sit backwards and break the arm. Again positioning is the hard part.  Instead of sitting straight back against a strong guy try falling to either your left side or right side first, then moving to your back to the break. Even the strongest can not resist the leverage this puts on the arm. This is a prime example of how leverage can defeat strength on the ground, a key ingredient to be succesful on the ground. A reactionary set up and the use of angles of opportunity are an example of Kenpo concepts that help with acheiving greater leverage on the ground. 

In many cases within the Kenpo techniques such as throughout the many take downs in Long 5; Yes Clyde Long 5, we find ourselves standing to the side of our opponent. In this case if I had the arm there is no reason to go to the ground to get the arm bar and break the arm. It can be done from the standing position and personally this is what I would attempt.

NOW the flying armbar is another story...lol........

John


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

Very true!!  That is exactly what you want to do on the ground.  Giving the person something else to think about, will help you get to your original goal!  Good point about the armber while standing too!

MJS


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Sorry about the last post I messed up............again!
> 
> 
> ...



Odd you could take such much out of the little I posted, and take it the wrong way to boot.   Oh well

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Odd you could take such much out of the little I posted, and take it the wrong way to boot.   Oh well
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Clyde you are correct, you have posted very little about the subject and maybe if you would explain yourself I would understand where you are coming from. How about some
substance instead of small talk.

Then again, If you find the topic a moot point then feel free to start another thread of a topic of your choice. 

Be Good

John


----------



## Michael Billings (Jul 24, 2003)

You have monopolized the past 2 pages of this thread.  Maybe you should trade phone numbers.  Then to go back an dig for a remark by Clyde, it sure looks like you looking for a fight, not a discussion.

Good job staying out of it Clyde.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Clyde you are correct, you have posted very little about the subject and maybe if you would explain yourself I would understand where you are coming from. How about some
> substance instead of small talk.
> 
> ...



I did

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9056


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2003)

I think some of us are just trying to find some answers regarding the pic that was posted.  I wouldn't say that anyone was monopolizing anything, instead, just trying to find some answers.  

MJS


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *You have monopolized the past 2 pages of this thread.........it sure looks like you looking for a fight, not a discussion.
> 
> Good job staying out of it Clyde. *



Looking for a fight??? Your misunderstanding my intensions completely. I am very passionate about my beliefs in certain areas and Im sorry this came across wrong. 

As for monopolizing the last couple of pages, wasnt my intension either. Ill shut up and go back to reading, hopefully Ill stay a martial talk yellow belt a lot longer!

"I thought we were in the trust tree...are we not?"



Be Good


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Looking for a fight??? Your misunderstanding my intensions completely. I am very passionate about my beliefs in certain areas and Im sorry this came across wrong.
> 
> As for monopolizing the last couple of pages, wasnt my intension either. Ill shut up and go back to reading, hopefully Ill stay a martial talk yellow belt a lot longer!
> ...


For god's sake, stop apologizing to these people.:soapbox:


----------



## Kirk (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *For god's sake, stop apologizing to these people.:soapbox: *



"these people"  .... and just who are "these people" ?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *"these people"  .... and just who are "these people" ? *


That would be the people he just apologized to. Your scroll bar not working?


----------



## KanoLives (Jul 24, 2003)

:boxing:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 24, 2003)

:deadhorse


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *:deadhorse *


I don't know; I can still see twitching.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2003)

In response to my photo on Mr. LaBounty's "arm bar shot".    The night before [during the technique lines] a few guys tried to do "arm bars" during their lines.  Only a couple were actually successful.  During the course of events, a couple of students asked Mr.  LaBounty why his arm bar didn't work.  The student had had told Mr. LaBounty that they had attended a prior seminar with someone on side arm bars, but were unable to make them work currently in the technique lines here.  Mr. LaBounty's response was I am tired tonight but tomorrow in my class I'll make it a point to illustrate my take on your question.  

The next day during Mr. LaBounty's 50 minute class, he took the first 3 minutes (and only 3 minutes) to show them briefly the maneuver.  The remaining 47 minutes of the seminar was on "Attacking the Gap" and no more on arm bars.

The brief corrections Mr. LaBounty illustrated were merely in bringing the opponent closer to the hips so as to be able to apply proper elbow placement and hand position.

Unfortunately, one photo has generated a thousand words .... er  I mean questions.

:asian:


----------



## Fastmover (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *  The night before [during the technique lines] a few guys tried to do "arm bars" during their lines.  Only a couple were actually successful.  During the course of events, a couple of students asked Mr.  LaBounty why his arm bar didn't work.  The student had had told Mr. LaBounty that they had attended a prior seminar with someone on side arm bars, but were unable to make them work currently in the technique lines here.
> 
> :asian: *



1. Thanks for filling in the gaps, I have to wonder why these guys couldnt get these armbars to work? Were their opponents resisting in the technique lines?

2. Why were these guys willing to go to the ground in the technique line? Did their opponent pull them to the ground or something? If not, It is a little odd that those that are so good on their feet, would be so willing to go to the ground. 

Again Thank you for the input.

Really Ill shut up and listen to comments.


----------



## Wes Idol (Jul 25, 2003)

Mr. Connatser's take on Mr. LaBounty's word choice (attacking the gap) is the same as my memory recalls.

WI, HI
UKS
http://www.uks-kenpo.com


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _*
> 1. Thanks for filling in the gaps, I have to wonder why these guys couldnt get these armbars to work? Were their opponents resisting in the technique lines?
> *



As mentioned in my post, I believe that they were just not close enough to gain proper control and position.  I don't think the opponents were resisting with any extra efforts.



> _Originally posted by Fastmover _*
> 2. Why were these guys willing to go to the ground in the technique line? Did their opponent pull them to the ground or something? If not, It is a little odd that those that are so good on their feet, would be so willing to go to the ground.
> Again Thank you for the input.
> *



Again, as stated earlier, these particular gentlemen had recently had a seminar on "arm bars" from another source and this was a fine time to "try out" their new found info to see if they could make it work.  I don't recall any opponents purposely taking them to the ground.  Just an opportune time to try something.

:asian:


----------

