# Comparing Ryukyu and Tracys



## Searcher (Dec 26, 2002)

After much debate I am moving on to another style.  
I live in the Lexington, Ky area and two of the better choices before me are a Tracy's school and someone who teaches Ryukyu kempo.
My current style is loaded down with katas, literally dozens.  I am looking for a style that is more concerned with techniques and sparring than memorizing a lot of katas.  Ideally I would like a style that has a traditional base, has somewhat of an old school approach as far as intensity and conditioning, but is definitely rooted in real world self defense and sparring.  
I am not looking for a style that is completely entrenched in tradition and from what little I have gathered, Ryukyu kempo seems to be a very traditional Okinawan type karate style (of course I could be wrong on that one).  Not that that's bad, it's just not what I'm looking for. 
Any help on what these two styles consist of as far as how many katas, what sorts of techniques, drills, and what kind of sparring is done would be greatly appreciated.  Especially if someone has experience with both.
Thanks.


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2002)

Ryukyu Kempo is typically _very_ kata-based. Nowadays the name is strongly identified with pressure point techniques in the States. Is it a DKI (George Dillman) group?

You might also ask in the Karate forum here.


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## Searcher (Dec 26, 2002)

Yes it is a Dillman affiliate.  Are they reputable for real self defense, do they only focus on pressure point stuff?


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## Sigung86 (Dec 26, 2002)

Hate to turn of a prospective student, but you have two kata per belt in Tracy's... Gotta work for it and learn what is there.  Insofar as RyuKyu Kempo... It too has lots of kata.  If the school you are looking at is an offshoot of a traditional RyuKyu school, it might have a changed syllabus... But I doubt it would.

I would suggest that you go and visit both schools ... Ask questions and note the answers.  Best answers gets the student. :lol:

Dan Farmer


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Searcher _
> *Yes it is a Dillman affiliate.  Are they reputable for real self defense, do they only focus on pressure point stuff? *



Opinions vary widely on the DKI material. Often a DKI school will teach its own traditional style of karate with DKI interpretations. There's a lot I like in my experiences with the DKI material, and that I find very useful, but Mr. Dillman himself is now teaching no-touch knockouts and other very questionable material. I'd encourage you to check out the school and see what they teach. Also, check out the Karate forum here for many discussions on Mr. Dillman and his methods.


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## sammy3170 (Dec 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Ryukyu Kempo is typically very kata-based. Nowadays the name is strongly identified with pressure point techniques in the States. Is it a DKI (George Dillman) group?
> 
> You might also ask in the Karate forum here. *




Yes Dillman does Ryukyu Kempo but it ain't his style.  He probably popularised it over there but there are plenty of other schools not affiliated with DKI who are just as good.   Also not all schools affiliated with DKI are Ryukyu Kempo schools. As long as they pay their fees and have him for seminars now and again they can be a DKI member.  I do Ryukyu Kempo and yes there are a lot of kata. To first dan we are required to know about 12.  So what; if they benefit you're learning and self defence who cares.  Also everything we do in class we do for a reason. ie chambering the non punching hand at the hip is never for power or anything like that, it always represents a grapple etc etc  When you say tradition be careful.  Anyone who says the reason they do something is because it's traditional means that they don't know why they do it.

Cheers
Sammy


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## Searcher (Dec 27, 2002)

Thanks for the help.  I will check out the karate forum as well.  I don't have any interest in no-touch knockouts to be quite honest.
I've already contacted both teachers and plan on visiting both.  The Ryukyu teacher also says he teaches principles of Small Circle Jiujutsu and Modern Arnis which seems in keeping with Dillman's association with Prof Wally Jay at least.
I had really thought I was done with learning lots of katas, but I suppose if the number is within reason and actual applications are done, then I'm ok with it.  I've been studying for approx 7 years and know a little over 50 katas.  And I could know more if  I went to all of the extra classes and seminars offered.  To me that's a lot.
And I know what you mean by tradition, a lot of people use that to cover up shortcomings.


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## Searcher (Dec 27, 2002)

Can anyone offer their experiences with Tracy's ?  I'm mainly looking for insight into effectiveness and how the style is taught, not if it's better than one thing or another.


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## Sigung86 (Dec 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Searcher _
> *Can anyone offer their experiences with Tracy's ?  I'm mainly looking for insight into effectiveness and how the style is taught, not if it's better than one thing or another. *



Perhaps I can be of some assistance.  My real name is Dan Farmer.  I am a 6th Dan in Tracy Kenpo with training and teaching experience in Kenpo going back to 1971, so with that in mind  I hope you will understand that I am a little biased.

Tracy Kenpo is a technique based system.  There are 10 techniques for the yellow belt with some variations The other belts have 30 techniques per belt plus variations.  The kata, or forms, if you will, are relatively easy to learn, and are specific to Kenpo, but they can be quite intricate.  They are not like the traditional Okinawan or Japanese forms.  I say this, because I do not know what your previous training is.   The techniques for each kata are taught in the belt before, so that you will have a much easier time placing the kata in a useful form.
And with your background in kata, you should find it relatively easy to put the Kenpo forms together.

The system itself is what Ed Parker taught before he began developing American Kenpo.  It is, much to the chagrin of  American Kenpo Stylists, and often Tracy Practitioners, what we like to call a repository of Kenpo Technique.  The techniques are generally full and complete, and often bottom heavy with variations that will often times seem to be dealing with minutiae, such as different hand forms to be used in the same motion.  However  The general overall motion training is good, the defense concepts and applications are very effective.  They are more spoon-fed than other systems.

I dont want you to think however that it is simple.  You will get out of it as much as you are willing to put into it.  You will see a whole different perspective if you have been used to dealing with more traditional styles.

Ive taught these same techniques and methods to Military Special Ops personnel, Government employees, and police, city, county and state in Missouri and other countries.  Several of my students have gone to the military.  One was asked to come back after his active posting in USMC Swimmer/Scouts (Kind of a USMC Delta Force) as a hand to hand combat instructor based solely on what he used that I had passed to him in the form of Tracy Kenpo.

Kenpo is imminently adaptable to weapon fighting, both one handed and two handed, it lends itself well to fighting in full military pack and it is as simple or complex as you want to make it..

You will hear a lot of hassling back and forth between American Kenpo and Tracy Kenpo stylists, much of it good natured, some of it not so good natured, but in the words of Frank Trejo  Its all good.

I don't know that I have covered anything you want to know, as you have not asked for specifics... I have given a very, very light overview of what I think you were, generally, getting at.  Regarding effectiveness ... The techniques have saved my bacon a couple of times in actual application.  As KenpoJoe Rebelo says, I hope I was of some service.  If you have specific questions, please feel free to contact me at:

Sigung@ythi.net 

or  You can call me at 636-745-3058.  I am unavailable usually Sunday to Tuesday due to an extremely heavy work schedule, but you can always leave a message and Ill call back or call on Wednesday through Saturday.  LOL!

Take care, be well, and Happy New Year

Dan Farmer


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## arnisador (Dec 27, 2002)

It's common to have DKI Ryukyu Kempo, Wally Jay's SCJJ, and Remy Presas' Modern Arnis (my style) taught together. They used to tour together as the "Big Three" and of course exchanged techniques. Modern Arnis has SCJJ techniques in it.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *My name is Dan Farmer.  I am a 6th Dan in Tracy Kenpo, been at it since 1971.
> 
> Tracy Kenpo is a technique based system which is what Ed Parker taught prior  to his constant "up grading" and evolution ane eventual development of what today is known as "American Kenpo".
> ...



As Mr. Farmer stated..... Kenpo is the way to go!  But it all depends upon the individual studio and instructor that you get that will make all the difference.  (that is with anything)

Dan and I have taked much over the past couple of years and enjoy the talks.  One day we will get together and really have fun! LOL

Whereever you go....... check out the school for yourself and be sure you feel comfortable and like the atmsophere .... then go with your gut.

:asian:


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## cdhall (Dec 27, 2002)

Hi Searcher,

My original teacher taught a derivative of Tracy Kenpo or Pre-Tracy Parker Kenpo so I have some familiarity with Tracy Kenpo.  However later I switched to an Ed Parker American Kenpo teacher (who had a background similar to mine) so there is a difference between the two but this is not really the point of my post.

This being my background and since I was born in Lexington Kentucky, I went to the Tracy HQ school in Lexington in 1994 while I was visiting my Mom.  The guy who was running the place was very nervous to have me in there being friendly and asking questions.  At the schools I have been to anyone can come in and watch a class, but this guy just wanted me to go away.  He seemed to be teaching 2-3 lessons at once, rotating between them.  There seemed to be a few people there in Private Lessons and a few people in the back in a group workout in a larger area.  He let me stay in the lobby for a bit as he went back to his teaching.  I was probably there less than 10mins altogether.

I am curious to know if they let you in to watch a class and how they treat you when you visit.  I had called ahead I think and when I went in I think I introduced myself as someone with previous experience who was curious about them and had heard that this was the Headquarters school.

Let me know how your visit goes.  I would have thought they would have been more eager to see a "prospect."  But this was almost 10 years ago now so I will not be surprised to hear that things might be different.


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## Sigung86 (Dec 27, 2002)

Well Doug,

Let's put a negative spin on things!  :lol:

I suspect that the teacher was not as nervous as you perceived.  It is often easy to put our interpretation on other peoples actions.

Tracy International has a very well rounded and complete Instructor training program that teaches the instructor how to deal with the public in a business manner as well as in the studio.  Tracy International is, if nothing else, a  business venture.  I suspect that there were other things going on ... And teaching a class would be more important than stopping everything to talk to you.  Remember, from a strictly business sense... I have 20 paying students at a time taking private and group lessons... I am going to take care of them first.  And a number one rule is that you don't let anyone in to watch private lessons... That's why they're called "Private". :lol:

Not having been there, I don't know for sure, but he may have been upset that the person who would have, or should have been there to greet and help you, wasn't there and he got put on a bad spot.  Sounds like it if he was stuck teaching two or three privates and a group.  Bad scheduling on somebodies part.  it's a matter of perspective and perception.

Just a way of looking at it.  It didn't make sense for an instructor to be nervous and evasive, on purpose and not without reason.  Kenpo is very important, but continuity of the school is, essentially, paramount, otherwise there's no place to teach the Kenpo and no one to teach it to.

Dan


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## cdhall (Dec 27, 2002)

I hope the guy was overbooked.  There was no one in the lobby when I arrived and I do remember that I called  to get driving directions because I was from out of town.

I wanted to see how the very successful guys kept their shop.

I am hoping Searcher comes back not understanding how I could have gotten that impression.  

But we used to tease the Tracy guys a good deal several years ago so my apologies if any of that crept in.
:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *I have 20 paying students at a time taking private and group lessons...  *


How can that be? If I pay for a private class, I should recquire that the instructor be there only for me. Just my opinion....


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## Sigung86 (Dec 28, 2002)

Please re-read the "whole" post KM!  

Thanks,

Dan


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## RCastillo (Dec 28, 2002)

To Wright City, Mo!  FAST

I'm missing out on what Mr. Farmer has to offer. With him teaching all these other people, I'm isolated here in Texas.

Let's see, what Interstate do I hit to get out of here?


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## Kirk (Dec 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Let's see, what Interstate do I hit to get out of here?*



I-10 West to I-35 North.  Don't let the door smack in the hind
end on your way out!


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## RCastillo (Dec 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I-10 West to I-35 North.  Don't let the door smack in the hind
> end on your way out!
> *



Hey, my butt ain't that big, I've been working out on them fancy Ellipitcal trainers!


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 28, 2002)

Those machines are really good to work out on. If you use your upper body also you can get a total body work out. Very low impact on the knees as well.


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## arnisador (Dec 28, 2002)

They make me feel uncoordinated! It's tough to get the hang of them (for me at least).


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 28, 2002)

I think their awesome! You can pop off 5 or 6 miles in no time with them. Get off of the machine dripping wet with sweat and know you had a good work out.


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Please re-read the "whole" post KM!
> *



Sorry I missquote you, Dan :asian: 

It was meant for 


> He seemed to be teaching 2-3 lessons at once, rotating between them.



in Doug's msg.

Lucía


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## cdhall (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Sorry I missquote you, Dan :asian:
> It was meant for
> in Doug's msg.
> Lucía *



Dan seems to be a good guy and Mr. C likes him so I'll bring this up so Dan can put the rumor to rest.

After I left the Tracy HQ I later learned that one of the successful Tracy business tips is to book multiple private lessons at one time so that you can start Doug off with something and have him work on it, go to Bob, start off Jim... and rotate like a circuit so that you are getting paid for 3+ half hours simultaneously.  I have heard this number as 8 simultaneous lessons, but I just don't understand how that could work.

When I heard this it made me think that may have been what was going on wth this guy.  I'm sure Dan can kill this rumor and set us straight which is why I brought it up in response to your question.

And again, my experience was with one guy, one day so there are any number of explanations. I do want to hear how your visit turns out and now that I know Dan is a Tracy guy I may even email him to ask about other stuff I've heard.  Like I may have said earlier, for some reason I can remember bashing on Tracy stuff at some point in history, but I am not sure why because the school I started off with was really Heavily influenced by both Tracy business and teaching practices.  They called themselves descendants of Ed Parker but they techniques they taught were Tracy techniques and their business model was Tracy based as well I think.

I'm only putting this up to 
a) answer your question
b) give someone like Dan who really knows something a chance to clear this up for me and everyone else

Good luck and keep me posted and email me next week to see if I ticked Dan off and got killed by a flame.


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## RCastillo (Dec 29, 2002)

Now that you're bringing this up, and maybe Dan can help. Where do the Parker techniques/forms end, and Tracy material takes over? I'v been wondering about that lately.

I'd ask the Goldendragon, but he 's on sabatical?


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Now that you're bringing this up........ Where do the Parker techniques/forms end, and Tracy material takes over?
> 
> I'v been wondering about that lately.
> *



They don't end, the techniques and methodology of delivery were always Ed Parkers.  The difference is...... when the Tracy's left Ed Parker to pursue their own financial adventure (opening up kenpo franchises everywhere & developing their own assn.), they took with them the knowledge that they had acquired at the time.

However, they were not privy to any of  Ed Parker's new innovations, increased knowledge and expansion of the Kenpo system as it continued over the next 21 or so years.   Ed Parker did in fact re-name his system to American Kenpo in the 80's to distance himself from his original works (and what the Tracy's call Kenpo) as the updated and evolved "AK" is much more complete and detailed by comparison.  They are in fact the same "System" but must be viewed as from different eras.  The Tracy's as the older version, and now AK as the new improved system.  

AK has everything and more that the old original material had but streamlined and improved.  More of the "why's" are now available.   This is not to say that the original techniques or forms that are now practiced by the Tracy's are "no good" but rather some what out dated in knowledge.  Most of the forms are the same, the execution is the key to how the movements are delivered and explained which from my experience is not known by mainline Tracy's due to no contact or updates from the founder of the forms and system Ed Parker.  Today, many are updating their material due to the exposure to many of the AK seniors that share with others as well as the internet which closes the information and communications gap.

:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> Good luck and keep me posted and email me next week to see if I ticked Dan off and got killed by a flame.  *



Well, I can send you some rain there to kill that flame

But I can't still understand how rotating among "private" classes is any different to having the instructir giving personal attention to a student in a group class. At least mine knows how everybody's doing most of the time in class.

For me, a private class is to have the instructor alone for me for a certain period of time, full attention, with no other messing around. But maybe is a cultural difference between private meaning here in Spain and there...

Certainly, we cannot think the whole of Tracy's practitioners and instructors behave the same, so I'll continue thinking they're all good people. A tall person does not make the whole group he belongs to tall too, does he?


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## cdhall (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Well, I can send you some rain there to kill that flame
> 
> But I can't still understand how rotating among "private" classes is any different to having the instructir giving personal attention to a student in a group class.*



I agree with you that it is not.  When I teach I work with each student personally when I introduce the material and when I get back to them to check it.

Maybe I don't need to do this, it is hard to do in a big class.

But you are right.  Keep a positive outlook and get with Mr. C if you suspect anything fishy.


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## cdhall (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *They don't end, the techniques and methodology of delivery were always Ed Parkers.  The difference is.... *



What he said.


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I agree with you that it is not.  When I teach I work with each student personally when I introduce the material and when I get back to them to check it.
> 
> Maybe I don't need to do this, it is hard to do in a big class. *



Sure your students appreciate your efforts with them very much 
That talks of you really well:asian: :asian:


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## cdhall (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Sure your students appreciate your efforts with them very much
> That talks of you really well:asian: :asian: *



Thank you.  This does make the classes run a bit long, but I think that both of my teachers did this. I know my first one did.  My advanced classes with Mr. Duffy are almost private lessons anyway, there are less than 5 of us almost all the time.

It would speak better of me if someone else were saying it though, but of course I agree with you and I think they appreciate it as well.


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## RCastillo (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *What he said.  *



More clarification needed here. For example, the techniques that go to a certain level, where do techniques stop, as far as what Parker created. (The way the techniques were assembled)

Or, are you saying that everything Tracys has in all techniques , kata, were created by SGM Parker. (Up to 5th Black)


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## Sigung86 (Dec 29, 2002)

First of all Doug, I don't get all that pissed at anybody all that often... You have to be a real dimwit to incurr my ire, and there aren't too many of those out here... Thanks be to Heaven!:lol:

Dennis is pretty much right in his definitions and so on... Tracy's teaches the whole techniques when it is taught, whereas the EPAK Method is to teach the fundamental part of the technique, then add the frosting later as extensions.  About 15 years ago, an interview with Al Tracy created quite a furor when he declared that an EPAK Black Belt was the equivalent of a Tracy Blue Belt ( I believe that was his claim).  He was technically, if not really, right in that the techniques that are taught up to fifth Black including the extensions... are taught completely at a much earlier level... We then go on to other techniques.  But!  He left out a number of other factors that would make that claim patently false, if not somewhat misinformed.

There is a very large divergence in how the two systems are taught, and I will not vouch for one, necessarily, being better than the other.  It is down to a matter of personal taste.  How you want to get from point a to point b.  I acutally, like both systems very much.  Tracy People who badmouth EPAK are doing so from a base of ignorance, likewise EPAK people who slam on Tracy"ites" do the same.  Both deliver a very tremendous amount of fighting/self defense capability.  Both are immediately useful, and both are imminently effective.  What more do you need?

The difference is the delivery of the knowledge involved and the way that it is disseminated.  We used to, on occasion, laugh at the EPAK Analysis Paralysis... AFter all, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick... Very few of the angles of this, that and the other were really definable, nor were they necessary when in fact, anybody could simply learn the motions...  Again... A platform of ignorance... I find, personally, after exposure to Dennis and some other fine American Kenpoists, that even though we don't always talk the same language, we still understand one another... Sort of like Brits and Americans being two people divided by a common language. :lol:

As to private lessons... I've never done multiple private lessons in my life.  Nor do I believe that Al Tracy ever condoned that.  I do  imagine, and I could be wrong, that the people who do things like that are simply greedy... And not too terribly concerned with quality...  Nor value for money... You pay for privates and privates are what you get.

Please, all of you, feel free to ask me questions... I think you have found, in the past, that I am a reasonable thinking person, except for that one time in Philadelphia! :lol:

I will do my best to always be truthful, fair, and as unbiased as possible.  

Take care,

Dan Farmer


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *More clarification needed here. For example, the techniques that go to a certain level, where do techniques stop, as far as what Parker created. (The way the techniques were assembled)
> 
> Or, are you saying that everything Tracys has in all techniques , kata, were created by SGM Parker. (Up to 5th Black) *



No it is not that easy.  To get hold of the real picture you would need to  work thru a couple of belts and examine what is taught and compare the similarities and differences........ this will be enlightening for you I'm sure.  Hard to do any other way.  You need to get into the meat of the material.

A great majority of the techniques are similar..... the difference is often times in the actual application...... many "look" to the eye identical, but when the explanation comes out.... a great difference in the end result.

The rearrangement concept was also learned and utilized by Al Tracy and he structured many techniques himself.  Even though they may be different...... they still have the "skeletal structure" of Ed Parker's original concepts, design, flow, and application.   Al Tracy was exposed to these ideas and his learning period with Ed Parker.   So there are many "Tracy only" techniques in their system but you can still tell the root of where they came from based upon the body movement and striking patterns which are unique to Kenpo.

Dan is close in his understanding but off base in some areas.  He points at the "Delivery of knowledge" which is partially correct, but also there is much knowledge missing from the Tracy's curriculum....... it is more physical or sequence oriented vs. knowledgeable based, not saying that they don't understand to some degree about the movements just not the overall depth.

There are parties on both sides that are grossly misinformed!  Too many AK guys as Dan says are "bookworms" and can't really effectively make any of the material work,  likewise many in the other  camp are very physical but lack current technology that would make them even more powerful and faster during execution not to mention a more informed instructor.

Even at its worst...... Kenpo is a super art!!  Which is one of the unique aspects of it.  Even when not done to its finest it is still a lot better than some arts out there......... but then again, it all depends upon the individual effort and skill applied.

:asian:


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## cdhall (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *No it is not that easy...
> 
> Even at its worst...... Kenpo is a super art!! *



Mr. Castillo, 

I am not familiar enough with the Tracy stuff to comment intelligently and Mr. C has covered everything I would have said if I knew enough to say it!  

Besides, if I were trying to compose an answer for you I'd probably call him and check my facts.

Mr. C's quote reminds me of Jonathan Frakes' quote about Star Trek the Next Generation several years ago.  He said "When it's good, it's the best show on Television.  And when its bad, it's still very good."  Or something very close to that.

Naturally I think Mr. C is right about the comparisons between Tracy and Parker and this may be because much of what I know about it comes from him directly or indirectly anyway.

From my experience with Mr. Swan, we had techniques there that now seem to me to be poor imitations of stuff Mr. Duffy got later from Mr. Parker and I think this is just an example of 1960 Parker Kenpo vs 1980 Parker Kenpo.  And I have seen and read about other Tracy techniques that seem to be developed as Mr. C described, so that is all I know.  

I have had some of both and it is like Microwave lasagna vs homemade.  Technically they may be the same thing, but one is so much better.  If I'm being invited over for dinner, I'll take the homemade stuff since they both require the same effort from me to partake of them.

I'm also glad I can't easily upset Dan.  Thanks Dan.  

I must say again that this particular website is an excellent resource for learning stuff like this.  I am sure  that if I walked into a Tracy school that I could not find this stuff out in 30mins but here I have Mr. C and Dan covering the topic pretty well.

Mr. C needs to set up a PayPal account and take donations on his site.  He gives out a lot of stuff.  Thanks Mr. C.

If I can help shed light anywhere I will, but I don't know much more about Tracy vs Parker and I agree with what Mr. C has said.

Mr. Castillo, I thought you had access to Mr. C for lessons?  You should bring him down to Corpus when he swings into Central Texas for his next seminar and let him teach a seminar at your school.  He could maybe show 2-3 EPAK techniques with Extensions so you and your guys can see how they are taught and then maybe he could just take questions and examine some of your stuff.

It would be a very, very valuable exercise.  He did a Kenpo Tools seminar at our camp in 2001 that I found to be maybe the best seminar I had ever been to and I have been taking seminars and going to camps since 1985.  And it would be a blast.

And I won't take my usual commission. :rofl: 

And if you guys don't stop calling me Mr. Hall, I'm going to get all weird.  Some of you out rank me by about 5 stripes in 2 arts!  

I guess cdhall, or Doug will be fine if you don't want to use my "handle" or whatever we use here.  Alias?  Nickname?  Login?  Member ID?  Whatever it is.  I let the guys call me Mr. Hall at the studio because I'm the 3rd seniormost student and Mr. Duffy likes instructors to be address that way, but it is weird having you guys call me that.  I guess though that if I weren't in Kenpo and we were all out somewhere we'd all be Mr. and Sir, so maybe I should just adapt and overcome? 

OK.  Back to your regularly scheduled programming. :asian:


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## Sigung86 (Dec 30, 2002)

OK Gents.  I was under the impression that the intent of this thread was to help a poster with some inisights into Tracy vs Ryukyu.  I then offered to assist with answering questions that people have regarding Tracy Karate.

Doug and Dennis ... I did not intend, nor will I participate in, a discussion that turns into who's system is bigger and better than who.  I was under the impression that I was working toward helping to dispel the myths and the differences that often time lead to bad feelings between the AK folk and the Tracy folks.  Not a question of who has what right.

Battering at my icons with your icons does not really solve any of the issues.  Telling me and other Tracy people that what you have is bigger and better doesn't really prove that it is.

What we have here is two different yet successful paths toward the same goal, that being, to successfully defend oneself in a life life threatening situation.  Some people do not feel the need to Analyze or intellectualize to the depth that American Kenpo has done so.  It is not a bad thing that American Kenpo does that.  What is bad is when you try to turn a thread into what this one appears to be devolving to.

Sorry... I'm not mad Doug, but you do seem somewhat intent on being there to back everything that Dennis says and clear your communications through him.  You also seem to be intent on making sure that everyone knows that you do not think very much of Tracy Karate.  Well Dang Doug!  We know it already.  Further, Dennis knows me well enough to know that if I were mad I would have been chewing and there would have been no question in your mind.  

That is not my intent.  These types of posts that intentionally badger people not of your belief system and of your hallucination of reality do nothing to create the unity that we all seem to be trying to pay  lip service to.  The prevailing posts from Dennis, and Doug tend to smack, ever so slightly, of insecurity.

That being said,  I don't believe I will post on this issue again.  Nor will I answer questions on this forum regarding differences, nor will I participate in who is better rants.  I will, however, be more than happy to answer any private emails that you may wish to send to me.

sigung@yhti.net

Take care,

Dan Farmer


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## cdhall (Dec 30, 2002)

I don't know what got Dan's attention but I'll recap here so everyone knows my position.

A) I had 7yrs experience with what was probably a heavily Tracy-derived system and I liked it then

B) I have about 11yrs in an EPAK system and I like it better now

C) I have never purposefully compared the two in any depth so I can't really tell anyone how stacks up vs the other 

D) Mr. C knows EPAK better than I do and I'm trying to defer Mr. Castillo to him instead of me for this reason

E) Dan knows Tracy stuff better than I do and as far as I know he is the most experienced Tracy guy here so if I have a question about Tracy stuff I will ask him myself (as I would ask Mr. C about EPAK) and I would encourage others to do the same (and not ask me directly anyway.  At least not first.)

F) I don't know about Comparing Ryukyu and Tracys so maybe I should not have posted anything in the first place

G) I like both Mr. C and Dan and I think they like each other as well

H) I'm not insecure.  I qualified for the AOK Texas State Championships in 3 divisions last year (took Regional first place in two of them) so I know I can stack up pretty well against a bunch of other styles and fighters.  Dan caught me off guard with this one, if anyone looks insecure I'd say it was him.  I must assume he took something I wrote very differently from what I meant.

I) Although Dan is not mad at me, I am very disappointed that he seems to have misunderstood some of my posting. I will contact him to be sure I know what he thought I said.  I hope most of my posts are internally consistent so that my intent is clear from what I said.  That is why they tend to be long posts. I don't want anyone to think I was veiling any threats or anything, I try to say what I mean and demonstrate how/why I think that.  I thought I did this by saying I'd been to Tracy's HQ 1 time.  I even confirmed that Dan was right in that you can't generalize too much based on one experience.

J) Naturally there will be differences of opinion all the time, but I don't see a problem with that as long as everyone is courteous and respectful.  Someone call me out here if you see something I did that was disrespectful and I'll apologize or clarify what I did.

I'm going to go email Dan.  I am confused about what is going on.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> OK Gents.  Dennis ... I did not intend, nor will I participate in, a discussion that turns into who's system is bigger and better than who.
> Dan Farmer*



No that was not my intent either.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> I was under the impression that I was working toward helping to dispel the myths and the differences that often time lead to bad feelings between the AK folk and the Tracy folks.  Not a question of who has what right.
> Dan Farmer*



Actually I was responding more to Ricardo and using you as a springboard (as I agree with many of your statements) not totally disagreeing with what you said but offering my point of view so as to help understand the differences that I see.
It was not an issue of "good or bad", or who is better, just the differences.  We already have our own opinions, and could change them anytime, if we wish.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> Battering at my icons with your icons does not really solve any of the issues.  Telling me and other Tracy people that what you have is bigger and better doesn't really prove that it is.
> Dan Farmer*



I wasn't trying to batter icons.  (what's an icon?)



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> What we have here is two different yet successful paths toward the same goal, that being, to successfully defend oneself in a life threatening situation.
> Dan Farmer*



Yes, I was in a Tracy system for 8 years  so I have had experience in both systems.  I did just fine for those years and developed decent fighting skills as well as form, but once given the opportunity to Study directly with Mr. Parker and learn from him the exact differences and understand the history, wow, did I have my eyes opened.  So, yes, you could say that I am a little prejudiced by what was revealed to me, but that is also why I don't mind sharing those lessons with others, that they might see as well.  That is my intent.  Touchy I realize, but with no malice.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> Some people do not feel the need to Analyze or intellectualize to the depth that American Kenpo has done so.  It is not a bad thing that American Kenpo does that.
> Dan Farmer*



I agree with you that all people don't feel the "need" for additional knowledge or canalization as well, but when someone asks about it, I will discuss the issues from my point of view with them.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> What is bad is when you try to turn a thread into what this one appears to be devolving to.
> Dan Farmer*



Shame on you for even thinking that.  I wouldn't do that........ I consider you a friend and ally.  Now Doug on the other hand is on his own.  lol



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> These types of posts that intentionally badger people not of your belief system and of your hallucination of reality do nothing to create the unity that we all seem to be trying to pay  lip service to.  The prevailing posts from Dennis, and Doug tend to smack, ever so slightly, of insecurity.
> Dan Farmer*



I can't speak for CD "Doug" Hall but was not trying to badger, or goad you at all....... (I'd rather do that on the phone, for a quicker response...LOL)  

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Dec 30, 2002)

I ain't no SPRINGBOARD!

My back ain't so good. But my biceps are MASSIVE PYTHONS BROTHER!  

With apologies to Hollywood Hulk Hogan!


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> * ...But my biceps are MASSIVE PYTHONS BROTHER!...
> *




What!!  Ricardo with massive biceps.   O.K. now I'm hurt.


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## RCastillo (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *What!!  Ricardo with massive biceps.   O.K. now I'm hurt. *



Get closer Jason, I'll wrap you up!:EG:


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 30, 2002)

After powerlifting for a year and a half I don't have massive biceps:wah: . Two days out of the week; pound the muscle with extraordinary amounts of sets (giant sets, supersets, flushing sets, half sets)  no massive biceps.


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## brianhunter (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *  After powerlifting for a year and a half I don't have massive biceps:wah: . Two days out of the week; pound the muscle with extraordinary amounts of sets (giant sets, supersets, flushing sets, half sets)  no massive biceps. *



If you would have learned what all the good little hulkamaniacs did you would have your own set of 24 inch pythons!!!!


"I'll tell you what Mean Gene! I climbed that mountain brother! Ive been taken my vitamins and saying my prayers! These are the 24 inch pythons that slammed a giant"

All the hulkamaniacs know this......geesh whats this world coming to!


Hulkamania will live forever! BROTHER!!!!

Brian


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## Sigung86 (Dec 31, 2002)

Hulkawho???? :rofl: 

Dan


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 31, 2002)

Hulkaholic?? :rofl: :rofl: 
Or maybe Hulkavitmaniac...


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## jeffkyle (Dec 31, 2002)

It is working toward HulkaonProzac!


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 31, 2002)

Or Hulkaonsteroids.... Ah wait, that's not muscle then, that's water!!!


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 1, 2003)

Well, I've been training, taking my vitamins and a lot of protein. I don't remember praying for bigger muscles though.:shrug:  Maybe that's the problem. Oh, of course. It also depends on what is meant by massive, brotha! Definitions vary from person to person.


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## RCastillo (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Well, I've been training, taking my vitamins and a lot of protein. I don't remember praying for bigger muscles though.:shrug:  Maybe that's the problem. Oh, of course. It also depends on what is meant by massive, brotha! Definitions vary from person to person. *



Come, join me young Skywalker, and I will complete your trainning!:jediduel:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 1, 2003)

Um; me. I don't know join the tracy's side of the force. My instructor probably won't like that any. Maybe we can all talk in private about that one.    :rofl: :asian:  Let me set it up though then maybe you'll come over from the darkside to train with real warriors.


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## Sigung86 (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Um; me. I don't know join the tracy's side of the force. My instructor probably won't like that any. Maybe we can all talk in private about that one.    :rofl: :asian:  Let me set it up though then maybe you'll come over from the darkside to train with real warriors. *



Be very careful young Jason... Real warriors make up the art.  The art does not make the warrior.    

Dan


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 1, 2003)

Oh my, I'm not about to get in any debate of which art is better. (Leave me the He** out of that) I do love the martial arts however.


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## Sigung86 (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Oh my, I'm not about to get in any debate of which art is better. (Leave me the He** out of that) I do love the martial arts however. *



That is my point exactly, Little Brother.  The art doesn't make the man... The man makes the art.  Now you appear to be catching on!  That's ten points!  :lol:

Dan


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 1, 2003)

I _almost_ had this exact conversation a month ago. I was at a local tournament and one of the other black belts there had said his Okinowan-Te was the deadliest art on the planet. Well after a moment of thought I shrugged it off and said "ah, ok, cool". Then walked away from the conversation. Your point Mr.Farmer is understood.


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## Seig (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I ain't no SPRINGBOARD!
> 
> My back ain't so good. But my biceps are MASSIVE PYTHONS BROTHER!
> ...


 hehehehehe....compared to say.......my wife?


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## RCastillo (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *hehehehehe....compared to say.......my wife? *



Uh, I forgot, I bow to Master Tess!:asian:


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## KenpoDave (Jan 4, 2003)

Well, if you are in Lexington, you will be training in the World Headquarters, giving you access to the head of the system, a comprehensive instructor training program, and the chance to train with and learn from some of the top people in the system when they come to town.

As for the 2-3 lessons at once thing...I was teaching in Lexington in 1994.  To my knowledge, overbooking purposefully has never been a Tracy suggestion.  However...the stituation is familiar.

In Lexington, the layout of the school in 1994 was...a lobby up front, a hallway running down the center of the school to the workout area in back.  Down the hall, there were first 2 offices across from each other, followed by a private lesson room across from the kitchen, then 2 bathrooms and a shower, and 2 more private rooms across from each other.  There was one more private lesson room as you entered the back.

It was not uncommon for an instructor, especially Mr. Finn, to get behind.  People wander in, or the phone rings, or whatever.  But everybody gets there full lesson time.  We would, if this happened, have our student coming in go on in to an unused private room and begin warming up or reviewing while we finished the lesson at hand.  The goal was to have people not just sit and wait in the lobby, but rather to go on and work out a bit.  Occasionally, if time would not allow this, we would grab another instructor to sub for us on one of the lessons.  There would be a few moments spent setting that up, then on to lessons.

To someone walking in and hanging out for about ten minutes at a busy time of day, it would be easy to assume the head instructor was bouncing around from student to student.  Rest assured that everyone gets their time.  If not, standard policy is to offer a free extra lesson at another time.

 
Dave Hopper


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 4, 2003)

Thanks for making things clear


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