# video clip of assault



## KenpoTex (Feb 22, 2005)

This video clip  from a pizza joint in Akron shows how easily things can get out of hand.

For anyone who has problems viewing this, basically what happened is that a guy in line at a pizza place says something about a woman "cutting" in line,  so an employee says something to her.  She goes nuts, calls her boyfriend in and he proceeds to beat the crap out of the guy who complained about her.  It was bad enough that the attacker was sentanced to four years for assault.


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## asangria (Feb 22, 2005)

Amazing how many people just stood there not trying to intervene.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 22, 2005)

Bad guy was already on probation. Going away even longer.

 Poster child for legalized retroactive birth control.

 Cthulhu


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## shesulsa (Feb 22, 2005)

asangria said:
			
		

> Amazing how many people just stood there not trying to intervene.


 Did you see the size of that guy?  I'm not sure I would have intervened either, other than to call the cops.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 22, 2005)

Ya I was thinking the same thing... very big guy... which probably gave him license to go ahead and start doing that. 
The whole thing really disgusts me, the big guy just hauling off even if it were a few choice words. The mentality that it takes to do that is almost Tysonesque. Savage and without deliberation. 
Also disturbing that people went on as if it didn't happen, the manager trying to get the woman to leave and big boy comes back in and the manager wisely retreats back behind the counter. 
I'm just sicken by it all.  :barf: 
Lovely society our children are growing up in isn't it?


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## ppko (Feb 22, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> This video clip from a pizza joint in Akron shows how easily things can get out of hand.
> 
> For anyone who has problems viewing this, basically what happened is that a guy in line at a pizza place says something about a woman "cutting" in line, so an employee says something to her. She goes nuts, calls her boyfriend in and he proceeds to beat the crap out of the guy who complained about her. It was bad enough that the attacker was sentanced to four years for assault.


Good punches, but I would have had to of jumped in but not everyone has that mentality


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## Flatlander (Feb 22, 2005)

After the first shot, I don't think that the victim could have done very much.  That was a pretty devastating blow.  This clip is excellent confirmation that awareness is crucial to personal safety.


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 22, 2005)

It's a sad commentary on the state of our society, but we - meaning society and the law in general, breed this type of behavior. I would be willing to bet that if someone had attempted to intervene, there would be some sort of arrest or some dumb lawsuit brought against the person who tried to help. The size of the guy determined that some serious physical technique(s) were called for. that alone would have most likely resulted in real damage, which from some greedy attorney's viewpoint would have meant a pay day. Sounds crazy right?....Remember cases where the bad guy sued the home owner, because he hurt himself while breaking in and the bad guy won!........


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 22, 2005)

Fat, out of shape thug.  Big, slow punches.  Guys easily 360 plus.  White guy should have ran.  I'd have probably punched the woman as hard as I could for starting it.  Guy might still have kicked my butt, but at least i'd have had the satisfaction of breaking her jaw.


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## KajuMom (Feb 22, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> After the first shot, I don't think that the victim could have done very much.  That was a pretty devastating blow.  This clip is excellent confirmation that awareness is crucial to personal safety.



Exactly what I was thinking, after that first blow to the jaw and being knocked to the ground, many people would be disabled and unable to do much. I can't imagine how the victim's head must have felt-could he even see anything for a few seconds?

Also notable that the attacker didn't do much leading leading up to the first hit to let victim know what might be coming: No raising of hands in threatening manner, tucking of chin, nothing that showed he was "getting ready" to fight that I could see in the video. That first punch came out of nowhere.

I was shaking when watching--very scary.


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## Danjo (Feb 22, 2005)

The guys watching were spineless cowards.


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## Tgace (Feb 22, 2005)

Disgusting .....One patron with a can of OC (if its legal there) may have made a difference.


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## psi_radar (Feb 22, 2005)

The victim was definitely trying to be contrite and submissive and not very aware, looking down and away from his assailant. A placating, "I don't want any trouble" hand-fence along with some range retreat--or even a preamptive shot in this circumstance--might have been his best course of action. Shame on the spectators--that guy could have easily been killed right in front of them.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 22, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Fat, out of shape thug.  Big, slow punches.  Guys easily 360 plus.  White guy should have ran.  I'd have probably punched the woman as hard as I could for starting it.  Guy might still have kicked my butt, but at least i'd have had the satisfaction of breaking her jaw.


My father taught me something that I hold true to this day. "There's NO excuse for hitting a woman." 
The white guy actually had no where to go in a manner of speaking. The woman would've blocked him and the big guy smacked him very hard. There was no warning. I don't think even awareness would've helped in this case as the white guy was distracted his own arguments and the blow was quick and devastating.
What gets me are two things. The obvious and terrible non-involvement of the other patrons. All morning I was thinking/asking myself would've I've said/done something? Seeing the sheer size of the man and knowing my own skinny butt would'nt have much except give him something else to pound on. If I was a CWP carrier would've I drawn? Because if I did then I would've *had* to shoot the guy. He was HUGE. Merely pointing the weapon at him would've enraged him further... if that were possible. 
The second thing was the utter viciousness of his attack. One hit was all it took but he kept pounding on him. Unleashing whatever rage that he had built up inside him, mebbe he would've gone too far if he had eaten those four pizzas they (must've had to ordered...just for him) and had his appetite sated. It looked to me he was spoiling for a fight, anytime anywhere kind of mentality. Any excuse what-so-ever. Savage, animal and wholly barbaric.  I wonder if there was a cop in the joint and the cop interviened would he have even listened? Or would he gone through the cop like he did the customer? He carried with him the attitude of "*just didn't care*". 
I'd hate to be that big guy's kid. 

But yes, the worse thing about it all was the bystanders total non-committment to the whole thing. Even afterwards. That was the worse thing.  :idunno: Oh well, the guy opened his mouth when he should've kept it shut. Not my fight (what fight? that was a beating). I'm not gonna get killed over some stranger, and so forth.  
Granted that there was the shock and then fear factor involved because again the big-guy had the advantage with his size and viciousness. Even if he was out-numbered would've it made a difference. Sadly we'll never know. 

The guy only got four years. FOUR years. Guess it wasn't severe enough huh?


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## OULobo (Feb 22, 2005)

Cthulhu said:
			
		

> Bad guy was already on probation. Going away even longer.
> 
> Poster child for legalized retroactive birth control.
> 
> Cthulhu



or CCW permits.




			
				MACaver said:
			
		

> My father taught me something that I hold true to this day. "There's NO excuse for hitting a woman."



Any self-defense situation is reason enough to hit a woman. If my life or safety is in danger I wouldn't think twice about decking a female. 



			
				MACaver said:
			
		

> But yes, the worse thing about it all was the bystanders total non-committment to the whole thing. Even afterwards. That was the worse thing.  :idunno: Oh well, the guy opened his mouth when he should've kept it shut. Not my fight (what fight? that was a beating). I'm not gonna get killed over some stranger, and so forth.
> Granted that there was the shock and then fear factor involved because again the big-guy had the advantage with his size and viciousness. Even if he was out-numbered would've it made a difference. Sadly we'll never know.
> 
> The guy only got four years. FOUR years. Guess it wasn't severe enough huh?



In the very least, I figure the shop owner should've called for the police the minute the first punch landed or before. Like Cthulhu said, he'll get more after his probation violation is added in. Looks like we're sending another beast to gladiator school.


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## Danjo (Feb 22, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> My father taught me something that I hold true to this day. "There's NO excuse for hitting a woman."


What if she's going after your kid with a knife? Absolutes are difficult to defend.


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## Klondike93 (Feb 22, 2005)

Cthulhu said:
			
		

> Bad guy was already on probation. Going away even longer.
> 
> Poster child for legalized retroactive birth control.
> 
> Cthulhu



4 years + extra for parole violation, puhlease :idunno: that dirt ball will be back out in 18 months or less for good behavior. That's justice for ya, guy's trying to kill the person and he get's what amounts to a slap on the wrist for a career criminal.


 :ultracool


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## Danjo (Feb 22, 2005)

Klondike93 said:
			
		

> 4 years + extra for parole violation, puhlease :idunno: that dirt ball will be back out in 18 months or less for good behavior. That's justice for ya, guy's trying to kill the person and he get's what amounts to a slap on the wrist for a career criminal.
> 
> 
> :ultracool


Should have gotten an extra 5 years for being stupid enough to do that on video.


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## traz (Feb 22, 2005)

wow, thats terrible. 

For starters, I obviously feel terrible for the victim, but he probably should have realised something was coming when the big tough boyfriend came in, squared up, and faced him. That would have been my cue to move 

Also...I can't believe that people were standing around. Thats sickening. Not only that, at least 2 of them visible in the camera were big enough to take the attacker on. Plus I"m sure somewhere behind the counter the employee could have found some kind of weapon. Sickening


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 23, 2005)

I've seen this kind of assault before, bystander apathy usually kicks in. The best thing to do when the guy walks in the door his hit him as hard as you can in the head, preferably with something heavy, before he ever even swings. When he walked in the door the guy should have known what he was there for. I've hit more than one man because I knew he was coming to hurt me. Of course that's easy for me to say I guess as i'm 6'5 290, so this guy wouldn't have the size on me.  Still, a handful of pepper in the face from one of the pepper shakers off one of the tables and then hitting this guy in the head with one of the large glass dried cheese shakers would have changed the entire outcome of that fight. I'd have still probably punched the woman when I got done, because as soon as her man started losing, she'd have jumped in.


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## MJS (Feb 23, 2005)

Many people today just don't want to get involved, and in many cases, I can't blame them.  Many fear retaliation for getting involved, reporting an incident, etc. and that is probably the main reason people keep to themselves.  Then you have the other group of people that report an incident, but want to remain anony.

I suppose you can't blame people for not stepping in.  Here, you have a very large, enraged man and his GF, who is also enraged.  Someone stepping in, could have also been on the receiving end of his assault.  

The guy that got hit did not appear to be aware of what was going on, because when this womans BF confronted him, he was looking down at his cell, completely unaware of his surroundings.  It also seems like nobody, especially the employees of the pizza place, made any attempt to call the police.  

Mike


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## Danjo (Feb 23, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Many people today just don't want to get involved, and in many cases, I can't blame them. Many fear retaliation for getting involved, reporting an incident, etc. and that is probably the main reason people keep to themselves. Then you have the other group of people that report an incident, but want to remain anony.
> 
> I suppose you can't blame people for not stepping in. Here, you have a very large, enraged man and his GF, who is also enraged. Someone stepping in, could have also been on the receiving end of his assault.
> 
> ...


This is sad but true. The concept of sacrifice and risking personal loss in order to defend one's freedom is nearly gone. I'm not talking about going to war in another country, but rather deciding to clean up one's streets and neighborhoods. Allowing the criminal to win and, in effect, rule the streets. We stand by and tell them, "You're right. Go ahead and do what you want to here." These type of vermin only do what they do because they know that there is no imediate price to pay for it. If every time some piece of scum like those in the video tried to do this they got beat down by those standing around, it wouldn't take very long for it to stop. We sell our souls an inch at a time and one incident at a time. First they beat up the guy next to you. Next it's your turn.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 23, 2005)

My 2 cents...

1) I HATE that attitude, you know the one that says "Im entitled, so to hell with the line, Im goin first"... its made even worse when, the dumb... female dog in heat... was wrong but  got her Boyfriend to kick the crap out of the guy.

HOWEVER

2) The Guy probably thought he was being clever, mouthing off on his cell phone about how it was gonna take longer because someone cut into the front of the line... as Shihan Ed Martin always tells us: "Discourtesy is not a Survival Trait". The guy could have been more patient and less snide. Ive been there... and while its tempting to mouth off, it does no good.

And finally:

3) I would have grabbed a chair and beat the crap out of that chicks Boyfriend with it... because "Officer, I swear I thought I saw a knife in his hand and thought he was killing that guy!"


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## RRouuselot (Feb 23, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> Good punches, but I would have had to of jumped in but not everyone has that mentality


 Really?? I thought his punches were pretty wild.....they didn't look skilled like  Tysonesque type punches. They looked like some big dumb thug that is used to using his size to his advantage. They were effective...but then "sucker punches" usually are.


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## RRouuselot (Feb 23, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> 1) Fat, out of shape thug. Big, slow punches. Guys easily 360 plus. White guy should have ran. 2) I'd have probably punched the woman as hard as I could for starting it. Guy might still have kicked my butt, but at least i'd have had the satisfaction of breaking her jaw.


 1)Agreed, but I think if a big thug like that was in my face I would have gotten off my damn cell phone and paid attention to the problem at hand. 

 2( Not sure I would have done that.


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## RRouuselot (Feb 23, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> My 2 cents...
> 
> 1) I HATE that attitude, you know the one that says "Im entitled, so to hell with the line, Im goin first"... its made even worse when, the dumb... female dog in heat... was wrong but got her Boyfriend to kick the crap out of the guy.
> 
> HOWEVER


 1)    Unfortunately I have to deal with people like the woman and her boyfriend quite often. 

   I work on a military base and for some odd reason many spouses of military members think their spouses rank carries over to them and also carry over to the civilian part of the base. 

   I had a woman come in my office and started going through my office space looking for an appointment book while I was away at the head. When I came back she was standing there holding the file that actually had other people confidential info in it. I asked her what she was doing and what gave her the right and she said she needed it. I told her she shouldnt go through other peoples desks and I doubt she would like it if I came to her office and did the same thing. She got pissy with me because her hubby was in charge of Protocal on base. She left and came back about an hour later with hubby in tow and he started to get in my face and said you and me well talk later. So I asked him is that a threat of physical violence. 

   He said take it any way you want it..I said OKpicked up the phone called the MPs and told them to remove a dirt bag from my office. They came over and threw him out. 

   Later I found out he hit an enlisted man in his office and was carted off to jail for the night.

   This guy is the head of Protocol on base, slugged a soldier while at work and spent a night in jail for it and still remains at his job.


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## Gray Phoenix (Feb 23, 2005)

> After the first shot, I don't think that the victim could have done very much. That was a pretty devastating blow. This clip is excellent confirmation that awareness is crucial to personal safety


That first punch ended it. Everything else was just for show. 

This is the most important thing martial arts has taught me. We have had many peopel come in to our dojo and think that we can predict the sucker punch, or levitate out of the way. Situational awareness, and training/trusting the hairs on the back of your neck or whatever else you want to call it, is the only thing that will really help you when things go bad. in the heat of the moment, you may panic, your technique may be off, but being aware of your surroundings and peoples behaviour will compensate for most of that by telling you when to bug out. 

So whats the solution? :idunno: 

People will blame society for raising this kind of person, then complain about what a sad society we live in. I'm sure that society has influenced him, how could it not. I grew up in the same society and have never done anything like this to anyone. (although sometimes I think I should have). So society cant take all the blame or an equal share. Otherwise, a majority of people would be like this. It is the family, and the INDIVIDUAL that must take responsibility for that INDIVIDUALS actions. 
I prefer to to look at the majority of hard working people who take care of their own, and regard our society with pride. I find I'm much happier this way. It doesnt pay to be a "vicitcrat".


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## ppko (Feb 23, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Really?? I thought his punches were pretty wild.....they didn't look skilled like Tysonesque type punches. They looked like some big dumb thug that is used to using his size to his advantage. They were effective...but then "sucker punches" usually are.


I agree what I was trying to say was that punches were effective and took out the individual rather fast.  So by good punches I mean effective (in this case) I do agree with you on this however.


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 23, 2005)

Actually, I personally blame a certain segment of society for these problems. That being our judicial system. We have all seen or read reports of victims being sued by the transgressor and the victim loses in court. How many times have we also heard of a person who has a multiple arrest record being arrested again for another serious crime? How in the world did he wind back up on the street? The drunk driver who's been arrested as many as 9 times and is still on the road and finally winds up killing some family coming home from church. The child molester who gets off on a technicality and proceeds to harm another child. The list goes on, but the point is made. When society in general, has little to no fear of judicial reprisal, things only go down hill.


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## Gray Phoenix (Feb 23, 2005)

If the beating warrented the death penalty, I dont believe for an instant, that it would prevented the fight.


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## FearlessFreep (Feb 23, 2005)

One thing to keep in mind in the "don't want to get involved" attitude is that it happened very quickly by a very anger individual.  Most people probably didn't have time to think of a good reaction as it's not something most people face every day.  Most people are also not trained for such situations so they really don't know *how* to respond


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## traz (Feb 24, 2005)

Gray Phoenix said:
			
		

> If the beating warrented the death penalty, I dont believe for an instant, that it would prevented the fight.


Really, Cause I do. And if not in this case, in many other cases.

We'll never know, but I honestly believe that there'd be less beatings if each beating resulted in the death penalty. How many assaults like that would happen, if the assaulter knew he'd be put to death once he did it?


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## RRouuselot (Feb 24, 2005)

traz said:
			
		

> Really, Cause I do. And if not in this case, in many other cases.
> 
> We'll never know, but I honestly believe that there'd be less beatings if each beating resulted in the death penalty. How many assaults like that would happen, if the assaulter knew he'd be put to death once he did it?


 
 Maybe, but dirtbags always think they can get away with it or beat the system.


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## Marginal (Feb 24, 2005)

traz said:
			
		

> Really, Cause I do. And if not in this case, in many other cases.
> 
> We'll never know, but I honestly believe that there'd be less beatings if each beating resulted in the death penalty. How many assaults like that would happen, if the assaulter knew he'd be put to death once he did it?


I mean, yeah. It works so well as a murder prevention tool afterall...

Head for an eye I say.


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## bayonet (Feb 24, 2005)

Gentlemen,  Scum bags like this are the reason, I assume, we all practice and study self defense.  We all can arm chair QB but from experience, being a white guy living in Hawaii I have had to defend myself. Things would have been different *MAYBE *if:
1. The victim kept his mouth shut.
2. be aware of your environment.
3. You have a man that size approaching you, get your hands up and create distance.
4. Palm heel the scum**** Edited to conform to MT's policy on Profanity in the nose or strike the throat.

If your going to get your *** kicked might as well get some licks in yourself. This attitude has saved my *** more than once. Hit and run. And the wusses standing around ought to be ashamed.
*Mr Parker said: Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6*.
No matter how good we are, the element of suprise always prevails.
Please respond gents, I'd like to hear your input further regarding this matter


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## KenpoTex (Feb 24, 2005)

Man, this thread took off since the last time I looked....

Anyway, my $0.02.

In this situation, he should have just kept his mouth shut.  Yeah, I don't like it when people cut in line or do something stupid in traffic, or...well you get the idea.  At the same time, as this incident illustrates, there are too many friggin psychos running around who will kill (or attempt to kill) you for nothing.  It's safer just to swallow your pride and let it go.  
  If you decide to say something be ready for a confrontation of some sort.  In this situation, as soon as the boyfriend walked in, he should have left.  Instead, he just stood there messing with his phone.  I think that he was probably trying to ignore the guy hoping that nothing would happen, instead he gave up his only chance to keep from getting his *** whipped.  
  What would I have done?  If I had been dumb enough to stick around at that point I would have tried the "fence" (hands up, "hey back off...") if that didn't work and he was still being agressive: low-line kick (knee or groin), chin-jab, strike to the throat etc. (some sort of "high pay-off" strike that would give me the opportunity to get lost).  If I had been one of the bystanders I probably would have hit him with a chair or smashed one of those pepper or cheese shakers that all pizza places have over his head.

The reason I originally posted the link to this video was to illustrate the importance of situational awareness and the potential danger of getting confrontational over something as trivial as the line at the pizza joint.

Good discussion y'all


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## RRouuselot (Feb 24, 2005)

I think I would have explained to the fat cow that cut in line something along these lines. Excuse me but we are all here waiting in line and none of us are more important than the other so we will just have to go in order by who got here first
 If she doesnt comply then I would ask the group does anyone mind if this lady cuts in front of everyone? I highly doubt anyone would say yes and I think that sort of peer pressure might have been more powerful.


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## MJS (Feb 24, 2005)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Actually, I personally blame a certain segment of society for these problems. That being our judicial system. We have all seen or read reports of victims being sued by the transgressor and the victim loses in court. How many times have we also heard of a person who has a multiple arrest record being arrested again for another serious crime? How in the world did he wind back up on the street? The drunk driver who's been arrested as many as 9 times and is still on the road and finally winds up killing some family coming home from church. The child molester who gets off on a technicality and proceeds to harm another child. The list goes on, but the point is made. When society in general, has little to no fear of judicial reprisal, things only go down hill.



Boy, isn't that the truth!!!  I could just see it all now.  Thug clearly assaults victim IFO many witnesses.  Victim defends himself and in the process, injures thug.  Thug turns around and sues for injuries that HE received from victim!  

I say, "Well, I didn't ask you to assault me, so I guess you get what you deserve!!"

Mike


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## Schtankybampo (Feb 24, 2005)

No. Sorry, folks, but Gray is right. The death penalty wouldn't have prevented this beating. Because our judicial system has been poked full of holes. 

The thug was beaten as a child, it's not his fault.
The woman has systematic line-cutting disorder.
All the bystanders were frozen in place by post-traumatic stress syndrome due to flashbacks of the OJ trial.
You couldn't hear it on the tape, but the guy actually made a comment to the woman based on her size/race/sexual inclination.

There are SO many ways around the justice system. I live in LA. I could stop my car on the freeway, grab someone out of the car in front of me, beat the tar out of him, steal his ride, and probably claim PTSD as well as road rage. These are excuses now! I've got enough crap in my past to gun down an office building....

BUT I DON'T. I don't cut people off in traffic. I don't cut in line. I don't assume that my time is more valuable than yours. I don't assume that I have a RIGHT to do something abhorrent simply because I woke up having a bad hair day.

Four years is ridiculous. The man is an animal. The woman is just as bad. Go ahead, flame me. Put 'em both down. Not as a deterrant, as insurance that they don't BREED. 

M


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 24, 2005)

In all honesty I don't think the fat slob would have attacked if he didn't see the guy all passive on his cell phone. A little more aggressive response might have mitigated the situation.  The predator saw that there wasn't going to be much of a fight, so he attacked.  Predators don't like to fight, they like to destroy.  If it comes to a fight, many times they'll back away.


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## masherdong (Feb 25, 2005)

Big boy goin away for awhile.  Especially since he violated his probation.  Can you say, "Come here big boy"?  lol


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## Aaron Little (Feb 25, 2005)

OK this is a different angle on the Pizza Beat Down video. This one shows what the news edited out and has some original audio with it. I have to wonder why it was edited like it was. It looks like the victim was all fine on tangling with the woman. Too bad he never noticed what was standing behind her. It is real interesting how his posturing changes when the boyfriend steps up.

http://media2.big-boys.com/officebrawl.wmv

If the link does not work then go here

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/officebrawl.html


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## MJS (Feb 25, 2005)

Aaron Little said:
			
		

> OK this is a different angle on the Pizza Beat Down video. This one shows what the news edited out and has some original audio with it. I have to wonder why it was edited like it was. It looks like the victim was all fine on tangling with the woman. Too bad he never noticed what was standing behind her. It is real interesting how his posturing changes when the boyfriend steps up.
> 
> http://media2.big-boys.com/officebrawl.wmv
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting this Aaron!!! :asian:   WOW, it certianly goes to show the importance to getting both sides of the story before we can accurately form an opinion of what happened.  The papers are infamous for editing key things, but of course, who wants to buy a boring paper, right?  Unfortunately, due to this editing, as I said, key things are often left out.

Its apparent that the victim had no problems getting in the face of this woman.  Unfortunately, he lost that motivation when the BF came in, as he was too busy looking at his phone, to see that punch coming.  Had he kept that same attitude, things may have been different.  

Mike


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 26, 2005)

Granted, the victim wimped out but the final equation is that he was still assualted. The woman caused the problem and actually also assualted him. Even though he opened his mouth, I personally would most likely have done the same thing - I'm tired of all these people just constantly stepping on and over everybody, because they have gotten away with it for so long it has become second nature to them. As pointed out, if he would have kept that same attitude with the guy, perhaps things may have been different, although it's doubtful. In our society today, it's almost like going back in time to the old west. Lots of guns and lots of bad people looking for a mark. The object lesson here is if you open your mouth, be prepared to back it up or just shut up and be stepped on!


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## Danjo (Feb 26, 2005)

There's an old saying in the military, "Is this the hill you want to die on?" One must ask themselves that question before provoking a situation that could escalate into a fight. One never knows what could happen. Not to say that one should allow the woman to cut in line with impunity, but politeness can go a long way. However, once the fight is one, it's on. Time to throw out the "what should I have done?" portion and get to kicking tail.


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2005)

Brad and Danjo brought up some good points.  We certainly need to think before we speak, but if we do speak, we had best be prepared to deal with the outcome.  

We also need to keep in mind that either one of these people (the attackers) could have had a weapon, which could have lead to a much more serious situation.

Mike


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## KenpoNoChikara (Feb 27, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Brad and Danjo brought up some good points. We certainly need to think before we speak, but if we do speak, we had best be prepared to deal with the outcome.
> 
> We also need to keep in mind that either one of these people (the attackers) could have had a weapon, which could have lead to a much more serious situation.
> 
> Mike


Too True. Not suprised about the way that news station edited the tape...Can't belive everything you hear or see, I guess.


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## bushi jon (Feb 27, 2005)

The guys watching cowards! I feel sorry for the guy what beating


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## Danjo (Feb 28, 2005)

Here's another thought to consider. Ask yourself the next time you go to the dojo, studio, dojang, kwoon, etc. "Is what I'm learning here making me able to deal with what I saw on that clip?"


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## Bammx2 (Feb 28, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Here's another thought to consider. Ask yourself the next time you go to the dojo, studio, dojang, kwoon, etc. "Is what I'm learning here making me able to deal with what I saw on that clip?"


HOOAA!!!
 Thats the question right there!
Exxellent point!


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Here's another thought to consider. Ask yourself the next time you go to the dojo, studio, dojang, kwoon, etc. "Is what I'm learning here making me able to deal with what I saw on that clip?"



I second that..Excellent point!!!  This is one of the reasons, me and many others are always talking about aliveness and making sure that we realize the huge importance of keeping our training as real as we can.  Sure, we can look at this clip and say that the guy is out of shape, maybe moved a little slower, etc. but the fact remains that he was a very large man, who was bent on causing the victim some serious harm.  

Mike


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## masherdong (Feb 28, 2005)

> Here's another thought to consider. Ask yourself the next time you go to the dojo, studio, dojang, kwoon, etc. "Is what I'm learning here making me able to deal with what I saw on that clip?"


That is a good point.  The answer to that is yes!


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## PragmaticMartialArtist (Feb 28, 2005)

Self defense is a personal issue.  What I mean is, only you are responsible for defending yourself physically and legally.   In the United States there is no duty for the non-law enforcement citizen to come to anyone's rescue. In fact, the act of physically helping can lead to your arrest or a civil suit if your perception of the situation is wrong.  I am not advocating doing nothing.  For the crowd in the clip, all that may been needed was verbal aggression.  Watch the nature channel and see how chimpanzees, or baboons confront a leopard.  The animals scream, throw their arms up.  What you don't see are the animals do is trying to knock the leopard out or choke out the leopard.  

The situation is sad because the incident reflects we are a society of individuals unwilling to help by simply saying "No", "Stop".   Yes, the owner said something, but think how much more powerful the dynamics of the situation would have been if everyone started to yell stop.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 1, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Here's another thought to consider. Ask yourself the next time you go to the dojo, studio, dojang, kwoon, etc. "Is what I'm learning here making me able to deal with what I saw on that clip?"


Yeppers, definitely agree with the others. Honestly speaking, I just don't know for myself. I see someone who'd be able to swallow me whole by oiling me down and pinning back my ears... Man, I think I'd probably would've found another way outta that situation before it got out of hand. 

The additional clip definitely shows the "victim" didn't help matters by getting back into the woman's face. There are people who just-don't-care. Obviously the big boy and the woman were evident of the type. 

Sheesh
Like I said I'd hate to be their kid.


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## Danjo (Mar 1, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> Yeppers, definitely agree with the others. Honestly speaking, I just don't know for myself. I see someone who'd be able to swallow me whole by oiling me down and pinning back my ears... Man, I think I'd probably would've found another way outta that situation before it got out of hand.
> 
> The additional clip definitely shows the "victim" didn't help matters by getting back into the woman's face. There are people who just-don't-care. Obviously the big boy and the woman were evident of the type.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all of the kind words and rep points everyone! I guess this goes to show that one thing that could be taught is how to de-escalate a situation with dignity. Talking someone down is a good skill to have, and should be taught along with how to defeat someone physically if needed. We as teachers have to do that all of the time. There are programs that help with this, but I'll have to see if I can find out what they are. Tone and hand position are part of it from what I have read. Keeping the hands low but in front of you etc. If anyone else has a good idea on this, please pitch in here.


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## Thunderbolt (Mar 1, 2005)

we live in a very violence world and people always think that bigger means better. Of course, our justice system is really bad. If our justice system is good, we don't have any bad people running around in our neighborhood.

it's really shock to see some people stand there and watch another beat a person. I can't believe it either.

during my course of life, i learn 2 things.

1- If i think that i have more chances of winning, i'm in. If the odd of me loosing is more than winning, i'll be out.

2- I don't let *bad* people come close to me. If they are close to me, I'll attack them with everything i get. Think about it? when you let some guy big such as this black dude comes close to you, you are finished.

this white dude should say something to black lady when she was being a *****. If she didn't back up, i'll finish her up and her boyfriend all together.

when i see a cop, i'll explain the situation later.

i believe in self-defense and i should be able to defend myself under any circumtance when my safety is no longer guaranteed.

it doesn't matter if a bad guy attacks me first or NOT. When she and her boyfriend come back, i know that i'm on the move. Of course, when they are back, they have bad intention.

if they aren't, they won't be back. Since they have bad intention, i'll not let the situation get out of control.

bottom line, who is better in a position to determine when i'm in danger besides me.?

i won't let the judge or cop or anybody else decide for me. I'll take it in my own hand.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 3, 2005)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> we live in a very violence world and people always think that bigger means better. Of course, our justice system is really bad. If our justice system is good, we don't have any bad people running around in our neighborhood.
> 
> it's really shock to see some people stand there and watch another beat a person. I can't believe it either.
> 
> ...


I can tell you as a police officer, that we in America don't have a "Justice System", we have a "Legal System".  If anyone thinks that's the same thing, i've got a bridge to sell you.  There is nothing "Just" about our system, but there is plenty "Legal" about it.


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## mj-hi-yah (Mar 3, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Tone and hand position are part of it from what I have read. Keeping the hands low but in front of you etc. If anyone else has a good idea on this, please pitch in here.


Just to add to that we discuss in our school the idea of stepping into a guard so your body is in position for a confrontation, but as you suggest - with your hands low so you are ready but not threatening with fists up.


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## Simon Curran (Mar 5, 2005)

My opinion;

It is easy for all of us to sit by our computers playing "shoulda, woulda, coulda", but we weren't there.
That said, however, I wouldn't have stood around watching the guy get beaten within an inch of his life, even if he deserved it for playing the tough guy in front of the woman, and the frightened chld in front of the big ugly guy.
A lot of things come to my mind when watching the second clip, like "What if I were the white guy?", "What if someone squared up to my girlfriend like that?", "What if I were one of the by-standers?", or "What if I was the restaurant owner?"
I have seen big ugly guys throwing their weight around, and they aren't always in the wrong, I have also seen small mouthy guys going ballistic, but that doesn't necessarily make them right either.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

_FearlessFreep-One thing to keep in mind in the "don't want to get involved" attitude is that it happened very quickly by a very anger individual. Most people probably didn't have time to think of a good reaction as it's not something most people face every day. Most people are also not trained for such situations so they really don't know *how* to respond._

Good point-Many of times I have seen this. The brain is either used to seeing this, or "freeze". I myself, witnessed and not done anything as a bystander. Later to think; "Why didn't I do something". Only to answer myself in many scenarios, to which that guy may have had a gun. Or came back later with one. Was getting invlolved, hurt, or killed, worth it in this case?



_Kenpotex-In this situation, he should have just kept his mouth shut. Yeah, I don't like it when people cut in line or do something stupid in traffic, or...well you get the idea. At the same time, as this incident illustrates, there are too many friggin psychos running around who will kill (or attempt to kill) you for nothing. It's safer just to swallow your pride and let it go._
Been there, done this. People like the attacker were always evident in my lifestyle and areas of work and proximity. One learns to "swallow" a lot in order to survive. A friend of my brother did the same thing in a Chukee-E Chhese. What a specticle in a place for children. 


_SIMONCURRAN*-* It is easy for all of us to sit by our computers playing "shoulda, woulda, coulda", but we weren't there._
The victim, could have had more awareness. After all, if he had told a unsavory woman something, did he think that she was going to let it go? Many of times I fled a situation that I thought may result into something. And keeping my machoism, made a excuss to leave.



I was in a "Cutting the Line" scenario. The "Rude Lane Changing" scenario. the "Taking My Parking Spot" scenario. The "Bright Lights on My Rear" scenario. The "Mardi Gras Bead" scenario. The "Girlfriend Flirting to get the Boyfriend Jealous" scenario. And far too many more to list.

If the pizza establishment was in a "bad area", the pizza owner should have a uniformed police officer present on detail.

Knowing that the area was like that, I wouldn't have went there to get my pizza in the first place.

This video is not at all astonishing to me. I have seen many situations in real life happen that way and in some cases, became worse. I have seen people get shot, stabbed, ran-over", etc., to know that avoidance is the key.

Does this mean to live a life in paranoial state? No. But one must exercise caution when in such areas.

If one is walking in the woods and all of the caution signs are there, should such a walk be done or done hap-hazardly?


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## Tony (Mar 13, 2005)

Seeing this clip really disgusted me! I can't say I woudl ahve done anything myself if i were there becuse i know I would have been shaken by it! I have been in a situation where I cowered away. I was in apub with some female friends and because of a misunderstansing a guy in his 50s was acting very threatening towards us! I merely looked down at my drink wanting the situation to just go away and to this day I feel vey ashamed about it.

I'm not sure if my 6 years f Kung Fu would help me out at all if I was in a life or death situation. BUt I'm not about to prove myself. If someone did cut in front of me I wouldn't speak up because I'm no the kind of person who likes confrontation. However I do have a friend who is very highly strung, and did actually have a minor altercation with another man in a baker's shop. He merely grabbed him by the lapels and siad some words and pushed him back I think. But this kind of behaviour is very dangerous. I believe you should only fight when you have to. 

I hope that big guy gets what he deserves!


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## donald (Mar 13, 2005)

That lady who started all the ruckus is being further prosecuted by Ohio's Cuyahoga County Prosecutor. She already pled out, and served 6 months per the city(Cleveland,Ohio)prosecutor's office. From what I could gather of this. Is that the county is saying the city can not speak for them. Since this is a felony case, and apprently county jurisdiction. Even though she has ALREADY done the time!!!??? Does this smell like double jeopardy to anyone else? Admittedly she, and her co-hort did wrong, but she bargained in good faith, and has done the time. Does'nt sit well with me.

By His Grace,
1st John 1:9


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## donald (Mar 13, 2005)

I agree the cops should have been called pronto. The poor guy who took the beating. Let himself get beat. If nothing else he should of dropped, and covered. Looking at the floor like he did, instead of in his face got him sucker punched, and thrashed.  The guy who doled out the beating was slow, and clumsy. He was obviously a thug who smelled fear, and attacked. Nothing about how he handled himself. Suggested he was a "good" fighter. Just a big dude with no confidence in his own abilty. If he had any confidence in his own fighting ability. He would not of sucker punched a much smaller, and obviously frightened man. That man did nothing to deserve what was meted out. He only spoke up when the lady struck him. You could see in him that it was nothing but reaction. He made no threatening move on her, but reacted to her attack as not to be further molested by her. Then came trouble... I hope he recovers fully, and gets some self defense training.


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## OULobo (Mar 13, 2005)

donald said:
			
		

> That lady who started all the ruckus is being further prosecuted by Ohio's Cuyahoga County Prosecutor. She already pled out, and served 6 months per the city(Cleveland,Ohio)prosecutor's office. From what I could gather of this. Is that the county is saying the city can not speak for them. Since this is a felony case, and apprently county jurisdiction. Even though she has ALREADY done the time!!!??? Does this smell like double jeopardy to anyone else? Admittedly she, and her co-hort did wrong, but she bargained in good faith, and has done the time. Does'nt sit well with me.
> 
> By His Grace,
> 1st John 1:9


I thought this was in Akron. That means there is no jurisdiction from Cuyahoga County or City of Cleveland. Akron is Summit county.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 13, 2005)

Tony said:
			
		

> Seeing this clip really disgusted me! I can't say I woudl ahve done anything myself if i were there becuse i know I would have been shaken by it! I have been in a situation where I cowered away. I was in apub with some female friends and because of a misunderstansing a guy in his 50s was acting very threatening towards us! I merely looked down at my drink wanting the situation to just go away and to this day I feel vey ashamed about it.
> 
> I'm not sure if my 6 years f Kung Fu would help me out at all if I was in a life or death situation. BUt I'm not about to prove myself. If someone did cut in front of me I wouldn't speak up because I'm no the kind of person who likes confrontation. However I do have a friend who is very highly strung, and did actually have a minor altercation with another man in a baker's shop. He merely grabbed him by the lapels and siad some words and pushed him back I think. But this kind of behaviour is very dangerous. I believe you should only fight when you have to.
> 
> I hope that big guy gets what he deserves!


Don't ever be ashamed of not getting into a confrontaion. It takes more guts to stay out of one.


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## ginshun (Mar 14, 2005)

Tough situation.  

 The attacker(s) where for sure out of line, nobody is going to dispute that.  

 The victim?  I don't know, I don't think he did anything that even remotely warrented what he got, but he definitely could have handled the situation better.  It is easy for me to sit here, watch the video and say that though.  Whould I have handled it differently?  I'd like to think so, but its hard to know what you would do in that situation without actaully being in it.  I might have said something to her for cutting in line, but I don't think I would have let it get to the shouting match that it ended up in.  And the big boyfriend was standing there looking menacing for a while before he did anything, at the very least I'd like to think that would have been able to regognize the type of situation that was arising and that I wouldn't have been looking down at the floor while some big ugly dude was in that threatening of a position.

 As for the bystanders, as fast as it happened, I doubt that I would hae done much differently than any of them.  I may have been on my cell calling 911 as soon as I saw what was happening, but aside from that and maybe yelling something, I doubt I would have gotten involved.  That dude doing the punching was big and crazy, a comment from a bystander might have caused him to attack that person as well.  As for bashing him with a chair or stick or something, I doubt I would have done that either, as that may have ended me up in jail right next to him.  Especially if he was seriously hurt.  In a perfect world maybe I would have jumped in, but in the current lawyer filled world in which we live, I doubt it.

 Just my take on everything.


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## donald (Mar 14, 2005)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I thought this was in Akron. That means there is no jurisdiction from Cuyahoga County or City of Cleveland. Akron is Summit county.



You're absolutely correct. The Summit County Prosecutor is on the case. When I caught it on the news. They were interviewing the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor. In hearing what he was saying. It sounded like it happened in Cleveland. I apologize for not getting my facts straight.

By His Grace,
1stJohn 1:9


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## safeeagle (Mar 26, 2005)

Your right the guy didn't want any trouble. Can't say as I blame him. Wonder what a pre-emtive strike to the groin would have done to that thug.


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## Bammx2 (Mar 26, 2005)

safeeagle said:
			
		

> Your right the guy didn't want any trouble. Can't say as I blame him. Wonder what a pre-emtive strike to the groin would have done to that thug.


 
You'd probably have to rub chicken fat on yer foot to get between his thighs in the first place....

Thumb to the eye?


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