# Five forms to Black Belt



## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

Has any of the members here checked out James Ibrao's new video course Five Forms to Black Belt.  I have heard some good things from people eho have emailed him and phone him about the course.  they are still waiting for their free preview tape.  does anybody have any news on this course?

The forms are Gom Gong Kuen, Si Ping Kuen, Book Set (Bun Gi), Gung Gi, and Tiger and Crane.

What does everyone think about learning 5 forms to become a black belt.

Here is the URL
http://www.thebelt.com


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## GouRonin (Jan 14, 2002)

The ranking system and structure is seriously flawed in North America.


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## arnisador (Jan 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *
> What does everyone think about learning 5 forms to become a black belt.
> *



I understand that in olden times it was common for a karateka to know only 3 or perhaps 5 forms, and to say that it sufficed to know one well.

I would think that 5 forms would be plenty if one trained the techniques in them properly. What isn't clear to me is that one gets more than the forms--one needs exercises and drills for working with partners and for developing attributes as they say.

I can't say that the name of the system, *5 FORMS TO BLACK (BELT)*, is very appealing however.


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## GouRonin (Jan 14, 2002)

...that Ed Parker said that if a person knew his system's Long 4 form, backwards and forewards, then he would hang a black belt on that person anyday.


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

I have learned Tiger and Crane, and I will tell you it is a major form in itself.  When doen properly it is Tiger section, Crane section, and then Tiger section again.  It hold many basics, and is quite hard.  I have heard of chinese schools that have this as the only requirement for their white sash(Black Belt).


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## John_Boy (Jan 15, 2002)

Wing Chun only has 3 forms (empty hand), BUT there is a whole lot of other stuff that is learned and developed along with that.  I think one of the keys is how the forms are trained and what else goes into your develpment....if there is more than those five forms...should it be called Five Forms (and other stuff)to Blackbelt?

Just kidding of course about the last line...


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 15, 2002)

I do believe from what i read on the site that the forms are the entire curriculum.  Of course you are taught the basics to do the forms on that tape.  But the primary criteria is the Five Forms


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## GouRonin (Jan 15, 2002)

In some styles forms were how they passed the style down. It was a way to remember the art. However they spent long hours working the forms and it's mechanics.


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 15, 2002)

With a style like the Five Forms to Black Belt, I believe you are expected to have a very strong grasp of all the mechanics of the form.  James Ibrao has always had high standards so I believe he will be watching the submissions with a very keen eye.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by John_Boy _
> *Wing Chun only has 3 forms (empty hand), BUT there is a whole lot of other stuff that is learned and developed along with that.  I think one of the keys is how the forms are trained and what else goes into your develpment....if there is more than those five forms...should it be called Five Forms (and other stuff)to Blackbelt?
> 
> Just kidding of course about the last line... *



Actually, Yip Man Wing Chun only has 3 empty hand forms, 2 weapons forms, and a set of movements on the wooden dummy that can be considered a form.  There is one form of Wing Chun that only teaches a set (I think around 40 or so) of self-defense movements and other forms of Wing Chun with quite a few more forms than three.

This info is from _Complete Wing Chun_, by Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie, & Y. Wu.  I got lucky, my library had a copy.  Check your library.  Lots of neat information in that little book.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Jan 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *
> This info is from Complete Wing Chun, by Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie, & Y. Wu.  I got lucky, my library had a copy.  Check your library.  Lots of neat information in that little book.
> *



Sounds interesting, thanks. I am interested in this issue of how many forms various styles of kung fu have (just curiousity). I know that southern praying mantis also has from 3 to many depending on the substyle.

Just one set of 40 self-defense movements! Many would agree that less can be more. When I see kung fu systems with dozens of forms I ask myself if any one person can truly learn and integrate all those movements into a system that works for them. I imagine they draw a substyle of their own from them and transmit the forms as an encyclopedia for the next person to draw from, with the thought that they may take something very different from them.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> Sounds interesting, thanks. I am interested in this issue of how many forms various styles of kung fu have (just curiousity). I know that southern praying mantis also has from 3 to many depending on the substyle.
> ...



It's a good book with a lot of good information.  It covers the origins (or reputed origins) of each of the subsystems featured and contrasts and compares them.  I may end up buying it, since I neglected to take notes and now I can't find the damn thing.  I think I posted the ISBN in the library forum some time back.  I may have even put a review up.  Can't remember.

Okinawa-te has 12 short forms (now, only 6 are being taught.  Damn stupid, if you ask me.  Anyone I teach is learning all 12, like it or not!) and reportedly has 36 kata.  Considering the first kata has over 90 techniques/movements, it's safe to say that nobody (except maybe Doversola) knows them all.  Fortunately, the bulk of the system is in that first kata, the short forms, and the second kata.  Furthermore, there are many movements in the kata that have plenty of room for personal expression, so some parts of the kata vary from person to person.

After having learned the kata, I don't mind them so much.  While I was learning them, I definitely thought less was more 

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Jan 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Okinawa-te has 12 short forms (now, only 6 are being taught.  Damn stupid, if you ask me.  Anyone I teach is learning all 12, like it or not!) and reportedly has 36 kata.*



Would we recognize their names or are they idiosyncratic to the system? I don't ever recall learning a kata that was that long.

Searching...from Black Belt:
The Okinawa-te katas have unusual and beautiful names, like "The Falling Leaf," "The Bear," "The Python," "The Spearless Spear," and "The Tiger." Each specific kata is described by its titlefor instance in the Bear kata the performer's movements resemble those of a bear. In the Python kata his hands are like the heads of two snakes.

There is a link at the bottom of the page to some kata pictures.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 15, 2002)

That's from an OLD Black Belt article.  The pictures aren't really related to any kata I know of.

The two required kata are Sword & Hammer (unrelated to the kenpo thingy) and Falling Leaf.  Falling Leaf is first learned empty hand and later with sai.  There is also another required weapon form called Yawara, using a short club, but it's very short compared to S&H.  S&H has around 90 moves, and Falling Leaf around 60-70.

Another difference is that, in general, Okinawa-te forms do not start and stop in the same spot, like most traditional karate/TKD forms.  We face the same direction at start and finish, but end up in a different spot.

Basically, you kind of have to see them to appreciate the differences 

Cthulhu


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## warriorsage (Jan 16, 2002)

Hey there cthulhu, where do you study Okinawa Te and who with? I trained for about 15 months under Richard Triplett and thought it was a wonderful art. Gotta love that Sword & Hammer. I couldn't believe it was the first kata in the system. Drop me an email (warriorsage@yahoo.com) if you'd like or post here.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 16, 2002)

I trained under Sensei Charles Kindall while he was stationed in Florida during his time in the U.S.A.F.  He is currently back in California, and I believe he's now training with Larry Delano, though he was with Mike Pecina for a while.

I'll drop you an e-mail soon.

Cthulhu

PS - Yeah, S&H is a bit much for a first kata


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *...that Ed Parker said that if a person knew his system's Long 4 form, backwards and forewards, then he would hang a black belt on that person anyday. *



I think Mr. Planas said this in the Journey.

Long 4 has about 20 techniques according to Mr. Billings' website 
http://www.kenpo-texas.com/
and was taught to me as the key form in the entire system.

I think on the 24 EPAK technique curriculum, if you just count the forms (no sets, no separate techniques-they are largely in the forms anyway), there are 5 Forms as well but some of them come in Long and Short versions.
Long and Short 1
Long and Short 2
Long and Short 3
Long 4
Long 5

So while I thought "5 Forms to Black" Sounded really stupid, I guess Mr. Parker only had 5 forms to Black as well.

Odd.  Very interesting.  Something to meditate on.  What if you had a Kenpo School and only required the forms.  Would you then require that each person be able to do the form against attackers?
And explain exactly what was going on?
Would you teach it this way from the beginning?
Would it be much different than what goes on now?
I have not done an analysis but does anyone know if all 154 (base) techniques are accounted for in the forms?  I know they are not present in the forms with their extensions and I know the form versions vary very slightly from the Self-Defense techniques as well.
Interesting. :idunno:


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## brianhunter (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I think Mr. Planas said this in the Journey.
> 
> Long 4 has about 20 techniques according to Mr. Billings' website
> ...



Keen observation man!!! You learn something new eveyday! Glad you pointed that out to me! I think in the Q and A thread Mr. C was once asked if he could only take a few things from Kenpo what would they be and he listed the forms maybe there is a little something to that


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

Thanks, Brian.
It was a revelation to me as well.
:asian:


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## Sigung86 (Dec 31, 2002)

In Kenpo, as in most "Chinese" systems, the core of the system is found in its forms.  They may not include the long versions of the techniques, but the core will surely be there and the rest could be extrapolated.

I agree with Dennis...  If you were limitedin what you could take from the system, the forms would be my number one on every list I made.

Dan


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## cdhall (Jan 10, 2003)

FYI
http://www.thebelt.com/Home/home.htm

John Busto
and
John Gilmore

have become the first graduates from the Black Belt and Instructor training programs respectively.

Odd that Mr. Gilmore was not the first Black Belt and the first teacher?

I know we used to have Book Set and Tiger and Crane in our system.  But I bet Doc would say that it is almost impossible to learn something like this purely by video.  Wouldn't it be?  I mean I know I could learn the form but there would be nuances or even glaring instances where I would be doing something "wrong" or less than optimal. 

The tapes might be a great reference for the forms and how to teach them though once you know them properly.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *FYI
> I know we used to have Book Set and Tiger and Crane in our system.  But I bet Doc would say that it is almost impossible to learn something like this purely by video.  Wouldn't it be?  I mean I know I could learn the form but there would be nuances or even glaring instances where I would be doing something "wrong" or less than optimal.
> 
> The tapes might be a great reference for the forms and how to teach them though once you know them properly. *



I don't know book set or tiger and crane but I have seen the descriptions of the forms somewhere on the 'net. After taking a look see all I can tell you is your not going to learn via video tape or reading the descriptions. Your going to have to have someone standing beside you helping along move by move.


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## cdhall (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I don't know book set or tiger and crane but I have seen the descriptions of the forms somewhere on the 'net. After taking a look see all I can tell you is your not going to learn via video tape or reading the descriptions. Your going to have to have someone standing beside you helping along move by move. *



I'm going to ask Mr. Duffy about this.  He knows Book Set and Tiger and Crane.  If he likes Mr. Ibrao's tapes he may want to teach this... he might like all the forms and it would give us another class to offer if he is interested.


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## Sigung86 (Jan 10, 2003)

Actually , Neither Book Set, nor Tiger Crane would be that difficult to learn from tape, provided the cameras are positioned correctly.

Dan


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 10, 2003)

I know someone who learn six long from video, and then, in a visit to his former instructor had it corrected and polished. And it wasn't that bad... But he was already a good black belt.


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## cdhall (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Actually , Neither Book Set, nor Tiger Crane would be that difficult to learn from tape, provided the cameras are positioned correctly.
> 
> Dan *



Thanks Dan,

I'm pretty sure I could mimic the moves but wouldn't there be something like a weight shift or foot position or something I'd be likely to miss in the form that might be important or make a difference?


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## cdhall (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *I know someone who learn six long from video, and then, in a visit to his former instructor had it corrected and polished. And it wasn't that bad... *



Yes.  This would be the way to do it.  I'd think that ideally, you'd want to get the moves, but before you really started to work it hard, you'd want to get the instructor (Mr. Ibrao) to go through the whole thing for you.  That would be best.  I'm thinking Mr. Duffy might go for that idea since he has the stuff already.  He could bring Mr. Ibrao to camp or something and go over 1-2 forms there perhaps. 

I don't know.  He may just tell me to do Long 3 on the left side and shut up.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I don't know.  He may just tell me to do Long 3 on the left side and shut up.  *



:rofl: That is all just too true!!:rofl: :rofl: 

Although I would like to learn them, eventually in time if applicable.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I don't know.  He may just tell me to do Long 3 on the left side and shut up.  *



Is there? It's quite simmetrical.
Or you're talking about short 3? Or is that I'm getting crazy?


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 10, 2003)

Just a variation is all. Start the form off of the left side instead of the right. It's always up for a heated arguement.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 10, 2003)

I see the reason for this in short 3, but the benefit you can get by doing it in long 3 is not that big.


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## Sigung86 (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Thanks Dan,
> 
> I'm pretty sure I could mimic the moves but wouldn't there be something like a weight shift or foot position or something I'd be likely to miss in the form that might be important or make a difference? *



Hi Doug,

With good camera work, I would venture not.  Having been able to do both for a long number of years, I watched the Tracy Training Videos and they are pretty spot on, and would not be that difficult to learn from.

The trick to learning anything by video is careful, very careful observation, and the ability to "NOT" over complicate things in your mind.  If there's not an elephant in the raspberry patch, don't try to create one.  :lol:

Actually, the quality of most of the big name instructor tapes are very good.  But you have to remember that I have long been an advocate of learning by distance with video.  I tried to get my "ancient of days" instructor to do so back in 72, but he felt that there might be much that might be missed.  And he really didn't think the Video Camera/Video Recorder/Players would ever come down in price enough to be a household item.  

I didn't have the benefit of years of harping on him like Vic LeRoux did on Chuck Sullivan, otherwise, you might very well have been chasing down and lusting after my videos (LOL!!!  Now there's a thought that is scary!)

If the video is clear and the explanation by the instructor is good, I wouldn't have a problem, at all, with learning something from a video tape.  It's just motion, not magic!  :idea:   And most certainly not something to be afraid of.

Take care and be well my friend ...

Dan Farmer


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## cdhall (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *I see the reason for this in short 3, but the benefit you can get by doing it in long 3 is not that big. *



Right.
I was just trying to indicate that he my rather me do something Kenpo related than bug him about something else.  Even if it was a very esoteric exercise.

I'm not up on which forms are required on both sides, but you are right in that Long 3 (like Long 4) is "symmetrical."  I don't think my original teacher required both sides of a form after Long 2.

I think Mr. Duffy says that Theoretically you need to be able to do Short 1-Long 3 on both sides and I think this is supported by Infinite Insights Book 5.  I'm not sure.  Normally I'd look it up, but I guess I'm getting lazy.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I think Mr. Duffy says that Theoretically you need to be able to do Short 1-Long 3 on both sides and I think this is supported by Infinite Insights Book 5.  I'm not sure.  Normally I'd look it up, but I guess I'm getting lazy.  *



Nah! But they are in the book that way. I was only required to do the forms on one side. Now I'm going back through doing them on my own on both sides. If I were to say it would be do short 1 - short 3 on both sides but who am I, just a peon:shrug: .


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## cdhall (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Nah! But they are in the book that way. I was only required to do the forms on one side. Now I'm going back through doing them on my own on both sides. If I were to say it would be do short 1 - short 3 on both sides but who am I, just a peon:shrug: . *



Thanks Jason. 

"Long 3 Right & Left Sides" is listed as a 3rd Brown Requirement on pg 81 of Book 5.

If anyone else was curious.


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## marshallbd (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *With a style like the Five Forms to Black Belt, I believe you are expected to have a very strong grasp of all the mechanics of the form.  James Ibrao has always had high standards so I believe he will be watching the submissions with a very keen eye. *


 I am interested in Sifu Ibrao's program and will be purchasing it in the near future....He is very available to speak with and willing to help.  If nothing else it will give me something to work on at home.  I am moving to a remote are of west virginia and the closest Kenpo instructor is 4-5 hours from my new home.  I plan on training once per month with that instructor but want something else for at home.


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## marshallbd (Apr 27, 2004)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> I am interested in Sifu Ibrao's program and will be purchasing it in the near future....He is very available to speak with and willing to help.  If nothing else it will give me something to work on at home.  I am moving to a remote are of west virginia and the closest Kenpo instructor is 4-5 hours from my new home.  I plan on training once per month with that instructor but want something else for at home.


SO HAS ANYONE SEEN IT? :asian:


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## KenpoTess (Apr 27, 2004)

Hey Beau.. you have your Capitals on~!!


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## marshallbd (Apr 27, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Hey Beau.. you have your Capitals on~!!


Sorry....didn't notice that....see what happens when you get into a hurry?  So how was the seminar with Mr C?  I'm so sorry I couldn't make it....I actually started out that way and broke down....


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## KenpoTess (Apr 27, 2004)

No problem Beau   when one types in Caps it means 'Yelling' on the internet. 

Seminar was fantastic
See This Thread


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## marshallbd (Apr 27, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> No problem Beau   when one types in Caps it means 'Yelling' on the internet.
> 
> Seminar was fantastic
> See This Thread


Thanks for the Link and the explanation...I am lost when it comes to "nettiquet" (sp?).  It took me forever to realize what LOL meant!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 9, 2004)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> SO HAS ANYONE SEEN IT? :asian:


I have seen the Gom Gong Kuen video and, technically, is a good production.  It shows the form from several angles, repeating the moves several times.  The form was broken down into about a dozen parts, each part being explained fully by Sifu Ibrao.  Sifu performed the form at the end of the video.

I begin this system in January and will post my progress.  Please forgive my ignorance in advance for I am old and new to MA.

Thank you,

jim


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## Karazenpo (Dec 9, 2004)

Look at Hapkido..........it's a great system but no forms. The thing about forms starting and ending on the same spot and facing front came about with the advent of tournament karate, in the old forms it didn't matter. Look at Professor Chow, I'd say he built a 'pretty good' foundation with only Naihanchi shodan!


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## Doc (Dec 29, 2004)

GouRonin said:
			
		

> ...that Ed Parker said that if a person knew his system's Long 4 form, backwards and forewards, then he would hang a black belt on that person anyday.


The operative word is KNEW. NOT be able to perform.


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## Doc (Dec 29, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> The operative word is KNEW. NOT be able to perform.


Additionally I started and studied at Ark Wongs Kwoon in LA's Chinatown in the fifties and early part of the sixties, and "learned" the Splashing Hands and Five Animal Forms. However it meant nothing to me until I met Parker later and he began to explain to me what the hell I was doing. Doing and knowing aren't the same. You can learn to do on video but you can't know from video.


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## The Kai (Dec 30, 2004)

Ha Ha ha Ha ha 5 forms to black

Honestly, if some scmuck wants to buy his belt this way, is it ggod.  Sure under these conditions
1.) Don't tell people that you actually got your ranking thru the mail!  Please make up a story about actually practicing the art live
2.) Don't teach.  Period
3.) Don't compete, ever.  reverse the situation, your skills are so awesome that you don't want to hurt anyone
4.) Don't ever demonstrate your skills, again claim your are just protecting those around you
5.) Don't ever talk about the dedication, sacrifice, effort, sweat, bruises you recieved during your "training days"
6.) If you meet some fool, doing the whole "Dojo" thing.  Please do not attempt to ever say "Yeah, I know" or "Yeah been there".  Do not equate the ardous wait next to your mail box for 10 months with that "Dojo" thing

Please go ahead and 
1.) decribe your training program as "reasonable priced" or "No sweat, to Black belt"
2.) Throw a few historical names into your descripitions, instead of personal antedotes
3.)Now that you've invested 9-10months into your training and have recieved your "No Sweat Black Belt", by all means please go for the Internal arts programs (only 10 more months).  and we will mail you the Super Kung Fu Certificate in the mail. If you don't have that kind of time, we offer a 4 month  Jeet Kune Do free form tape

anyone got any other suggestions?
Todd


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 30, 2004)

Freakin' brilliant.  Love it.


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