# Australian bujinkan



## unitedwestand

Hi all, 

I have to say, with the little bits I actually know of this art, and in particular throughout Australia, I am indeed impressed.

I have seen (footage of) the following:

Tim Bathurst
Greg Hinks
Andrew Netes
Andrew Jarvis
Duncan Mitchell
Duncan Stewart
John Cantor
Ed Lomax
Jamie Mac Aninch
Darren Horvath

All of the above are actually quite different, yet all excellent.

Can anybody tie a story together about when and where the Bujinkan originated in Australia and who actually trained with each other to begin with?

Coincidently, I think all of the above, are probably ranked the highest (although to me this means very little as there would surely be lower ranked guys superior to them and vice versa) in Bujinkan Australia with the exception of S. Jarvis, Steve Revnac, Lindsay Hawke, Craig Guest, Scott Shulze, Robin Doenicke and Gillian Booth????

I do not know the story behind Andrew MacDonald, Beattie, Greg Alcorn, Gary Bailey, Chris West etc.

An unbelievable line-up of folk within Australia?!!! You don't 'have to' go outside the country to train with elite craftspeople. Of course, each country would have a great line-up but I am most impressed at the shape of the Australian Bujinkan climate at the moment.

Respectfully yours,


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## Chris Parker

Yes, I can. Not sure how well it would be recieved, though...


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## dbell

Chris Parker said:


> Yes, I can. Not sure how well it would be recieved, though...



Tease!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Chris Parker said:


> Yes, I can. Not sure how well it would be recieved, though...



Fire away Chris!


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## savagek

Mr. Parker, 

People need to here the history yours and others so they can begin to put the picture together much like me building puzzles with my kids. 

Once enough of the pieces are turned over common threads appear and folks can assemble the puzzle. History so profoundly effects the present and the future of a subject. 

So yes please let us know. Much like the history here in the USA most dont really know it... 

Be well and Gassho, 

Ken Savage 
Bujinkan Shidoshi
Winchendon MA. USA
www.winmartialarts.com


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## Chris Parker

Hmm. Okay. But this is only because you all asked, right? I have tried to keep my time as agenda free as possible, and keep my feelings and opinions of other practitioners to myself, and will endeavour to do the same here, but certain things may spill out simply as a matter of telling the story. Remember, this is my take on how things happened, and are in no way definitive or representative of the feelings or opinions of others. With that said, here we go.

*Can anybody tie a story together about when and where the Bujinkan originated in Australia and who actually trained with each other to begin with?
*
While the list in the OP does include a few of the earliest students, it is not the beginning of the Bujinkan in Australia (or New Zealand, or Papua New Guinea). Your list misses the man who actually did start things here.

In the mid-to-late 70's a young Wayne Lee Roy read a book by Andrew Adams on Ninjutsu, and was intrigued. His father was a boxer, and he had trained in a number of arts since his early teens, including a form of karate, boxing, and Tong Long Kung Fu (Praying Mantis). He began a correspondance with Japan, addressing his letters to Hatsumi Sensei, who passed them on to the most experienced English speaking senior, Toshiro Nagato. Wayne Roy and Nagato Sensei exchanged letters for about a year, with Sensei Roy making his first trip to Japan in 1979. Due to a slight misunderstanding and cultural confusion, as well as a bit of serendipity, Sensei Roy actually spent the first few months living with Nagato Sensei, as well as having him as a teacher.

He later got a job, moved out on his own, and continued to attend the classes. During this first year in Japan, he met Hatsumi Sensei once, at a group meeting which had a number of Westerners involved.

When he returned to Australia, he set about creating the first Bujinkan schools in Brisbane, his home city. Initially, it was basically in a backyard, but soon grew. People came from around the country to learn the art, and Sensei Roy also spent time visiting other cities to give demonstrations and generate interest.

In 1983 he went back to Japan for a year again, this time training directly under Hatsumi Sensei. This included the time when Tanemura Sensei left to form the Genbukan. He was awarded Rokudan as he left. 

When he returned, Sensei Roy turned his focus from teaching in a Japanese fashion to teaching in a way that reflected the Australian psychology and the types of violence that are commonly seen here. This began a move away from the Bujinkan mainstream, however he and his organisation remained members of the Bujinkan. When Hatsumi Sensei came out for the first Australian Tai Kai, around 60-65% of all attendees were from his schools. Sensei Roy had created the largest group of Ninjutsu schools in the Southern Hemisphere.

As time went on, though, Sensei Roy's focus on teaching and training in an Australian-focussed way lead to him going to the US to teach and learn with Stephen Hayes, Charles Daniel, Robert Bussey, and more. This of course took precedence over trips to Japan, especially with texts such as the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki (which he was using to teach from back in the early 80's, well before most of the Bujinkan outside of Hatsumi Sensei, and Charles Daniel who had given Sensei Roy his copy), and the translations of the various densho and makimono (again courtesy of Charles). So he remained a Rokudan, and does to today.

The early students included a few of the names mentioned above. Gillian Booth, for instance, was graded by Sensei Roy to be the first Australian female Ninjutsu black belt. Among the students was a young man who had trained in a sword art (Hokushin Ryu Iaido, I think...), named Ed Lomax. Sensei Roy had been shown very little sword work in Japan, with the focus being more on Hanbo, so he invited Ed to teach him what he knew. He then took Ed's swordwork and created a sword syllabus for his schools training. Ed has never really gotten over this.

He has repeatedly criticised Sensei Roy in a number of publications over the fact that Sensei Roy wasn't shown much sword in Japan, and had to "steal" Eds, which Ed said was something he couldn't respect. Of course, this is all in hindsight now, as Ed stayed with Sensei Roy for a number of years, earning black belt grades with him. Ed later left Sensei Roy, went to Japan, and came back higher ranked and having been told by Hatsumi that he was the Australian representative (according to Ed - I have heard of Hatsumi saying similar to a number of people, basically setting them up against each other... I'm not getting into that, but there are theories about this), and set himself up against Sensei Roy.

In 2000, after a number of his former students had been promoted (very fast) above him, and used this to tear down Sensei Roy and his schools (even though they were all Bujinkan), Sensei Roy left the Bujinkan. 

There's a lot more, obviously, but I'm not going into that here. Hopefully this is enough for now. In essence, the origins of the Bujinkan in Australia are Wayne Roy and his schools. Many (but not all) of the major guys in Australia started in his schools, and earnt at least their black belts with him. These days Sensei Roy's organisation is known as Jyukutatsu Dojo (The School of Self Mastery), which reflects his personal approach of utilising martial arts as a vehicle for personal development in all aspects of your life.


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## stephen

Do you mean Ishizuka sensei instead of Nagato sensei?


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## Chris Parker

No, I mean Nagato.


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## Cryozombie

That's interesting Chris.  His story sounds a lot like Stephen Hayes' here in the U.S.


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## unitedwestand

Thanks for that mate, 

I did know a bit of background on Wayne Roy (and how he was one of the, if not the prominent guy at the time in Australia). He had Mike Hammond and maybe Mike Tattoli on board who do their own things now too I think?

I was sort of curious as to how the boys far away in WA (Jarvis boys, Mitchell, Hawke, Netes etc) got started as well as Horvath and Mac Aninch etc.

I will assume (which is dangerous to do of course) based on what you said, that there would be a strong probability that the above trained with or under Roy, or one of his seniors.

Cheers


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## Chris Parker

Yeah, the Mikes were with us. As for the others, many either trained with us initially, or trained with guys who trained with us. In terms of the early days, Wayne Roy was the only source for Bujinkan in Australia. A few years later, Richard Jones (from memory) moved from the UK to Tasmania, and was the first guy with any experience who wasn't a part of our organisation at all. As the years went on, obviously, new people came to the art with no ties to Sensei Roy or his organisation. 

Cryo, yeah, there are some definate similarities to Hayes' story and his organisation (including a few that I'm not going to discuss here...), but there are also some big differences as well.


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## Dean Whittle

Chris has done an admirable job in summarizing Wayne Roy's 20yr involvement in the Bujinkan as the first Australian to train in Japan and bring it back to Australia (although he wasn't the first Australian to train in Japan, there were two before him ... but that's another story). But I just wanted to clarify a few small things:

Mr Roy's first trip to Japan was in 1980.

Mr Roy returned to Japan on three occasions, roughly 1983, 1986/7 and 1990, it was at the end of this trip that he was graded to Rokudan.

he received his copy of the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki from Nagato-sensei at the end of his initial stay, not from Charles Daniel, however I understand he also received another version from Robert Bussey (who also got his from Nagato-sensei).

Gillian Booth was not the first Australian female black belt, that was Leonie Furner, followed by a number of others. Ms Booth was graded to Shodan by her Instructor Maureen Jensen who was Mr Roy's representative in Sydney at the time.

I don't believe Ed Lomax received any dan grades from Mr Roy, I believe he was graded by Andrew McDonald (IIRC) and left Mr Roy's Organisation thereafter. 

Michael Tattoli was one of the first homegrown New South Welshmen to be graded to Shodan by Mr Roy, along with Dean Gum (retired) and Dion Kalos, this was around early '87. 

I'm not too sure of Mike Hammond's history, I know he was part of our organisation at some stage but I don't know who he trained under in Sydney.


By way of background, I've been training in Mr Roy's organisation since 1986 and was privy to much of went on over the years. As Chris highlighted there's much more than what is indicated above however this is a brief overview of some of the barebone facts, based on my memory.

With respect


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## Cryozombie

Chris Parker said:


> Cryo, yeah, there are some definate similarities to Hayes' story and his organisation (including a few that I'm not going to discuss here...), but there are also some big differences as well.



Yeah, I wasn't implying anything by it, just an observation on a couple guys who got started, changed it up for their environment and left to do their own thing eventually.  Up until recently the whole politics of the art bugged the crap out of me... meaning I cared who and what you were.  Now, aside from some goofy folks and some obvious frauds, I just don't give a damn.  

I might call someone to task on an obvious lie or falsehood... but the politics mostly mean nothing to me anymore: they are worthless.


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## Dean Whittle

stephen said:


> Do you mean Ishizuka sensei instead of Nagato sensei?


 
Stephen,

Hatsumi-sensei passed on Mr Roy's letters to Nagato-sensei because he indicated that he would be basing himself in Tokyo (for ease of employment) as opposed to Noda. Since Nagato teaches in that area and speaks English, he got the letters.

With respect


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## CMM

Greg Alcorn was, unfortunately for him, my training partner at my very first lesson, at Ayase in 1999.

Lessons that I remember from that day:
1.) Mr. Alcorn was a super nice, helpful guy.
2.) Hatsumi-sensei's class at Ayase is a terrible setting for one's first lesson. 

Sorry for the derail; seeing "Greg Alcorn" in the first post brought back a fun memory.


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## Greg Alcorn

Ha ! I wondered why my ears were burning...... Perhaps Ayase is the best place to start training....and perhaps people who have not been conditioned to be compliant are the best training partners....

I think I'm part of the third generation of the Australian Bujinkan. I have Andrew Macdonald to thank for years of authentic training here in Sydney during the 90's and encouraging many of his students including me to go to Japan. 1999 seems like so long ago now.....


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## Macca59

Hah!  

"Those that speak do not know and those that know do not speak."

mmmm.


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## unitedwestand

Thanks Greg, 

Can you give a bit of a synopsis if you don't mind and have time about who your prime instructors, partners and students were.

Have you trained with many of the guys from SA and WA i.e. Ed Lomax and Andrew Netes?


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## Greg Alcorn

Since you asked, my bujinkan teachers were Andrew Macdonald and Nagato sensei. There are many people much more knowlegable about the bujinkan in Australia than me, so I think I have said enough.....Good luck in your martial arts journey everyone.


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## unitedwestand

Thanks Greg, and best of luck with yours.


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## Gemini Mage

Dean Whittle said:


> Chris has done an admirable job in summarizing Wayne Roy's 20yr involvement in the Bujinkan as the first Australian to train in Japan and bring it back to Australia (although he wasn't the first Australian to train in Japan, there were two before him ... but that's another story). But I just wanted to clarify a few small things:
> 
> Mr Roy's first trip to Japan was in 1980.
> 
> Mr Roy returned to Japan on three occasions, roughly 1983, 1986/7 and 1990, it was at the end of this trip that he was graded to Rokudan.
> 
> he received his copy of the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki from Nagato-sensei at the end of his initial stay, not from Charles Daniel, however I understand he also received another version from Robert Bussey (who also got his from Nagato-sensei).
> 
> Gillian Booth was not the first Australian female black belt, that was Leonie Furner, followed by a number of others. Ms Booth was graded to Shodan by her Instructor Maureen Jensen who was Mr Roy's representative in Sydney at the time.
> 
> I don't believe Ed Lomax received any dan grades from Mr Roy, I believe he was graded by Andrew McDonald (IIRC) and left Mr Roy's Organisation thereafter.
> 
> Michael Tattoli was one of the first homegrown New South Welshmen to be graded to Shodan by Mr Roy, along with Dean Gum (retired) and Dion Kalos, this was around early '87.
> 
> I'm not too sure of Mike Hammond's history, I know he was part of our organisation at some stage but I don't know who he trained under in Sydney.
> 
> 
> By way of background, I've been training in Mr Roy's organisation since 1986 and was privy to much of went on over the years. As Chris highlighted there's much more than what is indicated above however this is a brief overview of some of the barebone facts, based on my memory.
> 
> With respect


Hi there Mr Whittle,
I am new here and came across your comment as part of my serch for Ninjutsu origins in Aust. Would you mind if I could know the names of the other two people who trained in Japan before Mr. Roy. I am attempting to assemble a genealogy .
Cheers Rob.


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## Dean Whittle

Rob,

It appears that the first Australian to study with Hatsumi Masaaki was Laszlo Abel, who made these comments in an interview with Stanley Pranin (Aikido Journal) in 1992.

"I arrived in September of '76. 

When I came to Japan, ... I had contacted a style of ninjutsu. This was before the popularization and commercialization of that art. I was completely ignorant as to what ninjutsu was. Even the Japanese at that time knew it only through TV shows and comic books and I suppose a lot of people nowadays think ninjutsu is flying around in the air, swimming under-waterdoing superhuman feats. So I came to Japan and did about eight months of training out at Noda City in Chiba Prefecture with Hatsumi Sensei. 

I think the reason I did not continue there again was the commercialization. I distinctly remember one night getting changed with a Frenchman, Laurent Tressiere, who had trained there for a long time. Hatsumi Sensei came into the changing room, and said in the course of the short conversation, "Study here, take the techniques back to your country, charge a lot of money for them, and send it back to me." That's what turned me off. "

Mr Abel went on to study with Nawa Yumio for many years and passed away in 2009.

According to Nagato-sensei, the other Australian who studied prior to 1980 was a guy who was in Japan on his honeymooon, studied for one night and was never seen again.

With respect


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## Gregh

Greg Alcorn said:


> Ha ! I wondered why my ears were burning...... Perhaps Ayase is the best place to start training....and perhaps people who have not been conditioned to be compliant are the best training partners....
> 
> I think I'm part of the third generation of the Australian Bujinkan. I have Andrew Macdonald to thank for years of authentic training here in Sydney during the 90's and encouraging many of his students including me to go to Japan. 1999 seems like so long ago now.....



Hey greg "a" , havent seen you in a long time , hope you are well . I remember quite a few painfull nights of training with you and pete when you were living in japan , ha ha , greg "b"


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## Gregh

unitedwestand said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have to say, with the little bits I actually know of this art, and in particular throughout Australia, I am indeed impressed.
> 
> I have seen (footage of) the following:
> 
> Tim Bathurst
> Greg Hinks
> Andrew Netes
> Andrew Jarvis
> Duncan Mitchell
> Duncan Stewart
> John Cantor
> Ed Lomax
> Jamie Mac Aninch
> Darren Horvath
> 
> All of the above are actually quite different, yet all excellent.
> 
> Can anybody tie a story together about when and where the Bujinkan originated in Australia and who actually trained with each other to begin with?
> 
> Coincidently, I think all of the above, are probably ranked the highest (although to me this means very little as there would surely be lower ranked guys superior to them and vice versa) in Bujinkan Australia with the exception of S. Jarvis, Steve Revnac, Lindsay Hawke, Craig Guest, Scott Shulze, Robin Doenicke and Gillian Booth????
> 
> I do not know the story behind Andrew MacDonald, Beattie, Greg Alcorn, Gary Bailey, Chris West etc.
> 
> An unbelievable line-up of folk within Australia?!!! You don't 'have to' go outside the country to train with elite craftspeople. Of course, each country would have a great line-up but I am most impressed at the shape of the Australian Bujinkan climate at the moment.
> 
> Respectfully yours,



United , you have named most of the main people in the bujinkan as well as a few others who dont relly train in japan . I can tell you the were abouts of most of regular guys . 
Myself ( greg hinks if you havent worked it out ) moved back to north queensland where I grew up , after a 14 year stay in perth . I have been back in townsville now for 7 years and still am training in japan regularly with Hatsumi sensei and Nagato sensei , and any other shihan I can fit in . 
Since leaving  perth the Jarvis brothers have turned the training over to Chris West and Lindsay Hawke down south and Gary Bailey in scarboro . 
Dont know what happened to Steve Revnak , the last time I saw him was sometime around 94-6, so I havent seen or heard of him since .
Duncan Mitchell moved to brisbane where he runs a dojo with the help of Warren Cross .
Jamie MacAninch is still training in the beenliegh area .
Tim Bathurst now lives in melbourne as well as Peter Meden , both are running dojo`s .
Ed Lomax and Scott Shultz are in adelaide with many of there students now running there own schools .
Stephen Joyce moved to cairns where he now runs a dojo . 
Dale Heers was living and training in alice springs but has left and moved to the atherton tablelands in north QLD .
Darren Horvarth spends most of his time training in japan .
Gillian Booth , Peter White , Scott Abercrombie , John Cantor , Andrew Beattie and more , whose names I cannot remember at the moment , all live and train  in the sydney area .
Duncan Stewart , Robin Doenicke , and a few other aussies live and train in japan .
Thats about all the people that I know from my training in australia and japan , of course there are others and If I have forgotten you I am sorry , gregh


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## Gemini Mage

Dean Whittle said:


> Rob,
> 
> It appears that the first Australian to study with Hatsumi Masaaki was Laszlo Abel, who made these comments in an interview with Stanley Pranin (Aikido Journal) in 1992.
> 
> "I arrived in September of '76.
> 
> When I came to Japan, ... I had contacted a style of ninjutsu. This was before the popularization and commercialization of that art. I was completely ignorant as to what ninjutsu was. Even the Japanese at that time knew it only through TV shows and comic books and I suppose a lot of people nowadays think ninjutsu is flying around in the air, swimming under-waterdoing superhuman feats. So I came to Japan and did about eight months of training out at Noda City in Chiba Prefecture with Hatsumi Sensei.
> 
> I think the reason I did not continue there again was the commercialization. I distinctly remember one night getting changed with a Frenchman, Laurent Tressiere, who had trained there for a long time. Hatsumi Sensei came into the changing room, and said in the course of the short conversation, "Study here, take the techniques back to your country, charge a lot of money for them, and send it back to me." That's what turned me off. "
> 
> Mr Abel went on to study with Nawa Yumio for many years and passed away in 2009.
> 
> According to Nagato-sensei, the other Australian who studied prior to 1980 was a guy who was in Japan on his honeymooon, studied for one night and was never seen again.
> 
> With respect


Thanks Dean for that little nugget.
Do you know if Laszlo opened any schools in Aus. And their possible decendants ?
Was Mr. Roy one of his students ?
Rob.


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## Gemini Mage

Greg Alcorn said:


> Ha ! I wondered why my ears were burning...... Perhaps Ayase is the best place to start training....and perhaps people who have not been conditioned to be compliant are the best training partners....
> 
> I think I'm part of the third generation of the Australian Bujinkan. I have Andrew Macdonald to thank for years of authentic training here in Sydney during the 90's and encouraging many of his students including me to go to Japan. 1999 seems like so long ago now.....


Hi there Mr. Alcorn,
I'm a bit fuzzy on what you meant by 3rd generation ? 

Rob...


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## Dean Whittle

Rob,

My apologies for the delay in replying, I didn't notice your question until today.

Mr Abel states quite clearly that he left Hatsumi's dojo because of perceived 'commercialisation' back in 1976 or 1977. He then became a student of Nawa Yumio and stayed in Japan until his death last year. Therefore he would not have established any Bujinkan schools in Australia, there would be no 'descendants' and Mr Roy was never his student.

With respect


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## alburyscott

Sorry to come in so late, but I was wondering if any of you knew anything of Steve McKeon (sp?)? I did one or two classes with him, in Hawthorn or Kew, 12 or so years ago, and it inspird me to (finally) find someone near here to train with.

I had about a 10 or 11 year layoff, and knew nothing about him or the bujinkan in general, but he seamed to move impressivly for someone who know nothing at the time.


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## alburyscott

Opps I ment I knew nothing at the time....not him.


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## Chris Parker

Hi Scott,

Hmm, Steve McKeown.... this may be tricky. Steve was, from memory, a student with us in the early days, he took a copy of the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki (the version that Nagato Sensei gave Mr Roy when he left Japan the first time) and published it under the name Sakushin Dojo back in the early/mid 90's (without our or the Bujinkan's permission, I might add). In terms of his background other than that, let's just say that tales of his training have been greatly exaggerated (mainly by Steve, from what I've heard, such as claims of training with Sato Kinbei and others). I haven't seen him in action myself, so I can't comment on that, though.

That said, who are you training with these days?


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## alburyscott

I am now training with a bujinkan shidoshi-ho who is herein Albury, Cameron Horsburgh (I am sure he wont mind me saying his name on a forum......he does have a web page after all). His Shidoshi is nearby too, so we see a bit of him too.

He is also encouraging of us going to visit other dojo's, he is just keen for us to learn (but being older, and having a 2 year old child and my own buisness means that I don' t get that chance often). 

Thank you so much for your reply Chris


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## Chris Parker

Not a problem. Shizen Bodai Dojo, by any chance? (That just happens to be the website I've found, that's all...) Looks like a nice space there!

All the best with your training.


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## alburyscott

Thats it! It is the only school I could find in this area (other than a Kevin Hawthorn school, which among other things is 50 odd mins away, so is one of the reasons I am not training there).

You dont do sat classes by any chance do you, I would love to meet you and maybe train when I am in Melb some weekends.


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## Chris Parker

Ha, I'd hope there were other reasons (apart from distance) that would keep you out of the KH schools? Not that we need to go into them here, of course....

Once every two months or so I teach a three hour workshop on a particular subject, essentially to allow us to go into more detail on a particular subject than we can during regular class time. The next one will be either 12th March, or 9th April (haven't decided yet). I can send you a PM when I have an idea of when (and what) I'll be teaching, if you'd like.


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## Tez3

Read this thread with interest, really though someone is going to have to explain how the Japanese martial art was adapted for the Australian personality as stated in an early post! 

I have all sorts of thoughts going through my mind! 


I'm always interested in the East/West mix in martial arts and how the Japanese would have taken to an Australian rather than an American asking to train?


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## Chris Parker

Hey Tez,

I'll see if I can give a basic idea of what was meant by that.

In Japan, there is a culture of belonging to a group, which leads to students having a greater tendancy to stay with a particular school for a while, whereas in the West, the average life of a martial art student is about 9 months. This means that while a Japanese student may be expected to stick around for 10, or 15 years, or more, and can therefore be given a form of training that works over that amount of time, but a Western (Australian) student should be given skills that can be applied pretty much straight away.

Japan is also a relatively "safe" place, compared with many Western countries, so the immediacy of self defence skills isn't anywhere near as high a priority.

The last point is in the methods of teaching. In most Asian cultures, there is the concept of "Believe what you're told - Do what you're told - Don't question what you're told". This leads to little explaination, as it becomes assumed that you will be told when you're ready to know, if you're not told, then it's not something you should be worried about (known in Japanese as the concept of Nyunanshin, or Junanshin). Western students, on the other hand, tend to prefer explainations, and asking questions, and we're geared up (through our education system) to expect answers when we ask them.

So, in short, training held a lot more explaination of the lessons, there is less variation in order to get the skills rather than the longer-term Japanese approach, and there is a higher emphasis on modern street assaults. For more details, I'd suggest going to my schools site (in my signature) for explaination.


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## shirobanryunotora

greetings to all who use this forum.my name is robert roma.i do not xpect many of you to kno who i am-so here goes.am internet newbie so bear with me.my son showed me how to googl and such during a letter translation he was doing for me to go to soke hatsumi.the posts re early oz bujinkan connections and history captured my interest.why?cos i too was there.i was the first of ed lomax's "sth oz students"to go to japan.i have much to tell of those early days which may interest you all-any interest?til the next-rr


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## shirobanryunotora

most of your comments on the bujinkan and aust early history are generally correct.there are some small points of issue.tanemura was a student of takamatsu before hatsumi was.takamatsu chose hatsumi as soke.this upset tanemuras sense of how things should have been done and so he eventually left bujinkan after hatsumi had control.thus only technically a hatsumi student after takamatsu retired.from what i know and remember of those times tanemura was technically hatsumi's "elder brother"training wise etc


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## Chris Parker

Okay, Im going to have to ask you to back that statement about Tanemura being a student of Takamatsu before Hatsumi with something, as it's not something that anyone (including Tanemura Sensei) claim. The one and only time that Tanemura and Takamatsu were even in the same room was a single day when Hatsumi brought a group of his students to meet Takamatsu. In fact, everything in that post is incorrect (the reason that Tanemura left, who was whose student, who was whose "sempai", who was "kohai", even to the idea of Takamatsu "retiring"). Can you back up anything you have posted here?


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## shirobanryunotora

sure can do-refer"secrets from the ninja grandmaster" soke hatsumi and sk&r hayes etc- think around pg10-11 where soke hatsumi acknowledges that he was training with a teacher studying kobujutsu as i recall and says"...that teacher was himself a student of toshitsugu takamatsu,who eventually became masaaki hatsumi's teacher..." etc-from memory the students involved in those early days of bujinkan 1980-1990 should remember this episode as i do cos i was there and remember the shihans discussing these events involving tanemura and hatsumi and takamatsu and other events too


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## Chris Parker

That teacher was Ueno Takashi, not Tanemura. You're getting very mixed up there. And as far as Ueno Sensei being Takamatsu's student, there is a fair bit of contention there. Hatsumi always used to describe him as such, but other sources all indicate that they were more colleagues who shared information than teacher and student (ie Takamatsu got as much from Ueno as Ueno got from Takamatsu).

You're also getting a little confused with Tanemura leaving the Bujinkan, by the way. Where you're coming from is Takamatsu apparently was sending letters to Tanemura as well as Hatsumi, and indicated to Tanemura that he should be the one to take over from Hatsumi as the 35th Head of Togakure Ryu.  When Hatsumi became ill in the early 80's and didn't hand over the Sokeship, Tanemura did feel a bit put out. But that is not the reason he left (although it is possibly a reason he sought out so many other students of Takamatsu upon leaving).


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## shirobanryunotora

furthermore to my data on tanemura-his bio on wikipedia(2010version) states that his sensei includes such as takamatsu toshitsugu,kimura masaji,akimoto koki,sato kinbei,kobayashi masao,tanemura sadatsune,(after takamatsu ret.both)masaaki hatsumi and fukumoto yoshio(who began training with takamatsu at same time as hatsumi-circa 1957 and travelled together on same train-refer same wikipedia ref bio on hatsumi) please keep in mind that the early days were rather convoluted espec.when masters got ill etc but think and hope my version is the correct one???


----------



## Chris Parker

shirobanryunotora said:


> furthermore to my data on tanemura-his bio on wikipedia(2010version) states that his sensei includes such as takamatsu toshitsugu,kimura masaji,akimoto koki,sato kinbei,kobayashi masao,tanemura sadatsune,(after takamatsu ret.both)masaaki hatsumi and fukumoto yoshio(who began training with takamatsu at same time as hatsumi-circa 1957 and travelled together on same train-refer same wikipedia ref bio on hatsumi) please keep in mind that the early days were rather convoluted espec.when masters got ill etc but think and hope my version is the correct one???


 
Not quite, let's update you, shall we?

Tanemura Sensei claims Takamatsu Sensei as his most influential teacher, even though h only trained that one day with him, as he is the source of what he learnt under all the other teachers. His first teacher was his father (Tanemura Sadatsune), who was a practitioner of Ono-ha Itto Ryu. Akimoto Koki was Akimoto Sensei (Hatsumi Sensei's senior under Takamatsu, and the inherritor of Gikan Ryu until it reverted to Takamatsu when Akimoto Sensei died)'s son; Kimura Masaji was a close neighbour of Takamatsu's , leading to more training under Takamatsu than anyone else had; Sato Kinbei was a teacher of a range of arts, like Ueno he was more colleague than student of Takamatsu's; Kobayashi Sensei and Fukumoto Sensei were also students of Takamatsu's while Hatsumi was learning there. Fukumoto Sensei was awarded the "Ura Soke-ship" of Togakure Ryu, and it is from him that Tanemura Sensei claims his Togakure lineage.

Once more, Tanemura Sensei was not a personal student of Takamatsu in the sense of teacher guiding the physical techniques of the student. All of the other teachers on that list were sought out and learnt under after Tanemura left to form the Genbukan.


----------



## shirobanryunotora

yep agree could have mixed names up but you seem a  touch sensitive on these matters.was just trying to clarify these events and having been there when a lot of these were happening just wanted others to know there are alternate views just as valid-and by that i mean many strong personalities were exercising their talents to convince others to "join" their side so to speak though for bujinkan members its important to remember that in the end takamatsu-"the last living ninja" chose hatsumi to be the next soke not tanemura or takashi etc-hope this helps-til the next rr


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## shirobanryunotora

do not have data to challenge whether tanemura was a real student of takamatsu's though wikipedia bio seems to say so-not sure how reliable wiki is etc-tanemuras comments at the time indicate what i said earlier-i am just the messenger so to speak- tanemura was very upset or acted that way and his heated comments included such as i have indicated-truth or not is debateable i guess-was just pointing out another side to the story that many are not aware of


----------



## Chris Parker

No, I'm not being sensitive on this, it's just that your initial post in this thread was so completely out of whack with reality that it needed to be corrected. It should also be remembered, though, that Takamatsu chose Hatsumi to be the next Soke of the lines he gave Hatsumi.... he gave other lines of the same arts to other people, remember. Hastumi is not the one and only recipient of Takamatsu's lines. I could refer you to a court case involving the Gikan Ryu Sokeship, if you'd like, or we could look at a comparison between Koto Ryu in the Bujinkan and Genbukan... perhaps the Ishitani and Mizuta Den Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu's?

With regard to Tanemura's bio, that is lifted straight off the Genbukan sites, and I have explained the references. Once more, I'm not going into the reasons surrounding Tanemura's departure, as there have been many versions floating around over the last 20+ years, most only partially correct at best (such as the "I was meant to be the Soke!" one). I will also debunk an argument over Hatsumi's mothers funeral, as that was not a factor either.


----------



## shirobanryunotora

Chris Parker said:


> That teacher was Ueno Takashi, not Tanemura. You're getting very mixed up there. And as far as Ueno Sensei being Takamatsu's student, there is a fair bit of contention there. Hatsumi always used to describe him as such, but other sources all indicate that they were more colleagues who shared information than teacher and student (ie Takamatsu got as much from Ueno as Ueno got from Takamatsu).
> 
> You're also getting a little confused with Tanemura leaving the Bujinkan, by the way. Where you're coming from is Takamatsu apparently was sending letters to Tanemura as well as Hatsumi, and indicated to Tanemura that he should be the one to take over from Hatsumi as the 35th Head of Togakure Ryu.  When Hatsumi became ill in the early 80's and didn't hand over the Sokeship, Tanemura did feel a bit put out. But that is not the reason he left (although it is possibly a reason he sought out so many other students of Takamatsu upon leaving).


are you sure of your data saying tanemura only trained one day with takamatsu is correct??? why then would previous soke takamatsu send letters to tanemura offering sokeship etc to a one day student?? you admit in other text letter or letters between takamatsu and tanemura occurred pls xplain???not sure you have timeline correct or some fudging goin on somewhere???


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## Chris Parker

Yes, I'm sure. It is verified by every single source on the subject, by the way. That includes Hatsumi stating that he only took his students to see Takamatsu once, Tanemura confirming the same, and so on. There are a number of people that I've only ever had written communication with, it's really not that difficult or unreasonable to think that Takamatsu communicated with Tanemura by writing letters, he was well known to send letters frequently.


----------



## shirobanryunotora

Chris Parker said:


> No, I'm not being sensitive on this, it's just that your initial post in this thread was so completely out of whack with reality that it needed to be corrected. It should also be remembered, though, that Takamatsu chose Hatsumi to be the next Soke of the lines he gave Hatsumi.... he gave other lines of the same arts to other people, remember. Hastumi is not the one and only recipient of Takamatsu's lines. I could refer you to a court case involving the Gikan Ryu Sokeship, if you'd like, or we could look at a comparison between Koto Ryu in the Bujinkan and Genbukan... perhaps the Ishitani and Mizuta Den Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu's?
> 
> With regard to Tanemura's bio, that is lifted straight off the Genbukan sites, and I have explained the references. Once more, I'm not going into the reasons surrounding Tanemura's departure, as there have been many versions floating around over the last 20+ years, most only partially correct at best (such as the "I was meant to be the Soke!" one). I will also debunk an argument over Hatsumi's mothers funeral, as that was not a factor either.


interesting comments mr parker-my question to you is direct-where you there at the time? if you were not, then your data is rather secondhand and possibly biased in some way that you might not be aware of-note that you stated just as i did that important thing is to remember that takamatsu chose hatsumi-glad we agree on that-yep know bout funeral episode though you dont seem aware of tanemuras visits to mrs hatsumi as well?


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## shirobanryunotora

Chris Parker said:


> Yes, I'm sure. It is verified by every single source on the subject, by the way. That includes Hatsumi stating that he only took his students to see Takamatsu once, Tanemura confirming the same, and so on. There are a number of people that I've only ever had written communication with, it's really not that difficult or unreasonable to think that Takamatsu communicated with Tanemura by writing letters, he was well known to send letters frequently.


yep agree letter communication would be norm though offering sokeship through the post seems stretching things does it not??


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## Chris Parker

shirobanryunotora said:


> interesting comments mr parker-my question to you is direct-where you there at the time? if you were not, then your data is rather secondhand and possibly biased in some way that you might not be aware of-note that you stated just as i did that important thing is to remember that takamatsu chose hatsumi-glad we agree on that-yep know bout funeral episode though you dont seem aware of tanemuras visits to mrs hatsumi as well?


 
Oh dear lord... would you mind repeating that with my comment in context? I said that it was important to remember that Hatsumi was chosen as successor to the lines he inherrited not to everything Takamatsu had. I might also point out the "Ura Soke" side of things... in other words, Takamatsu awarded the Soke line of Togakure Ryu to two people!

As to where I was, no, I wasn't there. But I have had a number of conversations with people who were, and they are verified by the story that Tanemura puts forth as well, and it is not to do with who was awarded Sokeship of anything. And yes, I am aware of the visits to Mrs Hatsumi, Tanemura was rather close to the family. I am also aware of the visits to Takamatsu's widow as well, before we go there.

And I never said that Sokeship was being offered, as after Takamatsu had passed it to Hatsumi it was no longer his to confer. He did indicate that he believed that Tanemura Sensei would be the best successor to Hatsumi, when Hatsumi decided to pass it on.


----------



## shirobanryunotora

Chris Parker said:


> Oh dear lord... would you mind repeating that with my comment in context? I said that it was important to remember that Hatsumi was chosen as successor to the lines he inherrited not to everything Takamatsu had. I might also point out the "Ura Soke" side of things... in other words, Takamatsu awarded the Soke line of Togakure Ryu to two people!
> 
> As to where I was, no, I wasn't there. But I have had a number of conversations with people who were, and they are verified by the story that Tanemura puts forth as well, and it is not to do with who was awarded Sokeship of anything. And yes, I am aware of the visits to Mrs Hatsumi, Tanemura was rather close to the family. I am also aware of the visits to Takamatsu's widow as well, before we go there.
> 
> And I never said that Sokeship was being offered, as after Takamatsu had passed it to Hatsumi it was no longer his to confer. He did indicate that he believed that Tanemura Sensei would be the best successor to Hatsumi, when Hatsumi decided to pass it on.


am aware that takamatsu offered lineages to at least two people-thats xactly what i have been trying to get across-there was much angst generated at the time between the different people hoping to get such lineages that much more than what can be nicely said here went on and some of your comments seem cut and dried when the reality of the situation at the time was definitely not so-this also applies to your previous summary of early days on oz-as said elsewhere i was there too and could tell much of my viewpoint of such episodes as between ed lomax and wayne roy for example that show a different take on oz early days-til the next rr


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## shirobanryunotora

unitedwestand said:


> Thanks for that mate,
> 
> I did know a bit of background on Wayne Roy (and how he was one of the, if not the prominent guy at the time in Australia). He had Mike Hammond and maybe Mike Tattoli on board who do their own things now too I think?
> 
> I was sort of curious as to how the boys far away in WA (Jarvis boys, Mitchell, Hawke, Netes etc) got started as well as Horvath and Mac Aninch etc.
> 
> I will assume (which is dangerous to do of course) based on what you said, that there would be a strong probability that the above trained with or under Roy, or one of his seniors.
> 
> Cheers


hi n hope this helps-the wa boys; jarvis brothers,craig turbett and steve revnak etc got their bujinkan data from such as wayne roy,ed lomax and andrew macdonald in the early days-i spent quite some time with them in japan and oz after 1983-as for darren horvath he was a lil later ed lomax student-helped on the security team(as i did and several other security licensed students of ed's) for the first oz taikai in adelaide 1992 with soke hatsumi and shihan nagato-my home town btw-i remember them as enthusiastic and dedicated students of the bujinkan and have many photos and memories of training and other moments-each of their stories is precious and unique-til the next rr


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## shirobanryunotora

unitedwestand said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have to say, with the little bits I actually know of this art, and in particular throughout Australia, I am indeed impressed.
> 
> I have seen (footage of) the following:
> 
> Tim Bathurst
> Greg Hinks
> Andrew Netes
> Andrew Jarvis
> Duncan Mitchell
> Duncan Stewart
> John Cantor
> Ed Lomax
> Jamie Mac Aninch
> Darren Horvath
> 
> All of the above are actually quite different, yet all excellent.
> 
> Can anybody tie a story together about when and where the Bujinkan originated in Australia and who actually trained with each other to begin with?
> 
> Coincidently, I think all of the above, are probably ranked the highest (although to me this means very little as there would surely be lower ranked guys superior to them and vice versa) in Bujinkan Australia with the exception of S. Jarvis, Steve Revnac, Lindsay Hawke, Craig Guest, Scott Shulze, Robin Doenicke and Gillian Booth????
> 
> I do not know the story behind Andrew MacDonald, Beattie, Greg Alcorn, Gary Bailey, Chris West etc.
> 
> An unbelievable line-up of folk within Australia?!!! You don't 'have to' go outside the country to train with elite craftspeople. Of course, each country would have a great line-up but I am most impressed at the shape of the Australian Bujinkan climate at the moment.
> 
> Respectfully yours,


hi-have contacted some of those named-tim bathurst,ed lomax and andrew macdonald re your query-they are all training partners of mine from the japan trip in 1990 i recall-wil update you on their reply later etc-as dean whittle has noted elsewhere the early days data he knows is somewhat different than say chris parker's-diff.first female dan-diff.grading data re ed lomax and wayne roy-diff.data re who first aussie in japan and etc-am trying to clarify these with those that were there with me at the time-wil update what info i get when i get it etc-til the nxt rr


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## shirobanryunotora

Dean Whittle said:


> Chris has done an admirable job in summarizing Wayne Roy's 20yr involvement in the Bujinkan as the first Australian to train in Japan and bring it back to Australia (although he wasn't the first Australian to train in Japan, there were two before him ... but that's another story). But I just wanted to clarify a few small things:
> 
> Mr Roy's first trip to Japan was in 1980.
> 
> Mr Roy returned to Japan on three occasions, roughly 1983, 1986/7 and 1990, it was at the end of this trip that he was graded to Rokudan.
> 
> he received his copy of the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki from Nagato-sensei at the end of his initial stay, not from Charles Daniel, however I understand he also received another version from Robert Bussey (who also got his from Nagato-sensei).
> 
> Gillian Booth was not the first Australian female black belt, that was Leonie Furner, followed by a number of others. Ms Booth was graded to Shodan by her Instructor Maureen Jensen who was Mr Roy's representative in Sydney at the time.
> 
> I don't believe Ed Lomax received any dan grades from Mr Roy, I believe he was graded by Andrew McDonald (IIRC) and left Mr Roy's Organisation thereafter.
> 
> Michael Tattoli was one of the first homegrown New South Welshmen to be graded to Shodan by Mr Roy, along with Dean Gum (retired) and Dion Kalos, this was around early '87.
> 
> I'm not too sure of Mike Hammond's history, I know he was part of our organisation at some stage but I don't know who he trained under in Sydney.
> 
> 
> By way of background, I've been training in Mr Roy's organisation since 1986 and was privy to much of went on over the years. As Chris highlighted there's much more than what is indicated above however this is a brief overview of some of the barebone facts, based on my memory.
> 
> With respect


hi-have just spoken to ed lomax-from his point of view deans version closer to the truth-ed 1st dan graded by andrew macdonald-7th kyu by w.roy-ed left w.roy before got dan grade-a.mac graded at time 3rd dan by sh.nagato-1st female BB in oz was l.furner though seems to recall that highest graded oz female at time came to be hilary dyer a 3rd dan who also was in japan circa 1991-dispute btween ed & w roy was much more than what has already been said-in essence he feels that the early days in oz revolved around more than 1 personality-he cites many discussed here and others that all contributed to the expansion of bujinkan in oz-he recalls w roy starting to teach after only ten mths training-and yes mentioned w roy sword work was iado learnt off him-both andrew mac and tim bathurst have retnd my call though not chatted yet-wil tel their view later-til the next rr


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## Stealthy

It would be worth using capitals for peoples names here as some may take it as implied rudeness.

Trust me, the capitals are worth it.


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## shirobanryunotora

Stealthy said:


> It would be worth using capitals for peoples names here as some may take it as implied rudeness.
> 
> Trust me, the capitals are worth it.


Thanks for the tip-definitely no rudeness intended.Did not realise anyone would think such-had heard not to use full capital words but not the opposite concept.Apologies to all mentioned and will keep in mind for future.


----------



## Stealthy

shirobanryunotora said:


> Thanks for the tip-definitely no rudeness intended.Did not realise anyone would think such-had heard not to use full capital words but not the opposite concept.Apologies to all mentioned and will keep in mind for future.


 
Haha yes that one is just as important, people can fly off the handle and start jumping up and down about being yelled at if you use all capitals.

OTT.


----------



## JohnF

Its Nice to see how people like Greg Alcorn, Andrew Beattie and Paul Desilva have tried to rewrite History.

They say they trained under Andrew Macdonald, Little do people know, that they started their training under a Darren Hastings. 

Andrew as a Sandan came to Sydney, Darren Help set up the Epping Dojo, at a Church Hall on the corner of Mardsen Rd & Mobbs Lane. Darren was graded to 6th Kyu, when andrew decided to return to Japan, leaving Darren to run the dojo as a 6th Kyu. 

Darren was graded to shodan by some winging Pom from from Tasmania, who ripped Darren off hundreds of Dollars. I know this for a fact as I trained in Hobart with him, and he bousted about it, the same way as he back stabbed a yank called Robert Bautgarten. 

Darren was graded to Nidan by Andrew on one of his whirl wind tours. 

Greg , Andrew and Paul received Ky grades from Darren. Nidan & Shidoshi. So it was darren that introduced the 3 to Ninjutsu, Paul was brought to training by a mate of his who had a drinking problem. 

Shortly after his Nidan was awarded a mad scot , by the name of Gordon Simmons arrived at the Dojo, a man with a questionable driving record. Simmons couldn't get the grades he wanted and now trains in Genbukan. 

Paul, Greg and some other guy a motor mechanic started training with Gordon, while also training at Darrens Dojo. They lied to darren about certain things and openly underminded  Darren's Training at the Epping Dojo. 

Darren told them to leave the Dojo, Paul attempted to blackmail Darren by making false accusations that he was screwing female students. Darren still told them to leave. 

Darren grew sick of the ******** within Bujinkan. The lack of support and the childish behaviour of Ninja wankers. 

So History has been revealed to the truth.


----------



## Dean Whittle

There's quite a good interview in this month's (June) edition of Blitz magazine with Robin Doenicke, in which he talks about his training in the early-to-mid 90s before heading over to Japan to live.

Admittedly for us old-timers, the early-to-mid 90s wasn't that long ago ... nevertheless it's a reasonable piece, which includes a photo of a very young Wayne Roy, circa 1984.

With respect


----------



## Greg Alcorn

Wonder who JohnF is ? Care to discuss this post with me in person ?


----------



## Chris Parker

Yeah, I was wondering who that was as well, Greg... Always classy to come along, make a single comment like that, and disappear. I have to say, the "Primary Art and Ranking" he put on his profile is a little odd, as well..."Shinobi 5th Dan". Hmm.


----------



## Tez3

JohnF said:


> Its Nice to see how people like Greg Alcorn, Andrew Beattie and Paul Desilva have tried to rewrite History.
> 
> They say they trained under Andrew Macdonald, Little do people know, that they started their training under a Darren Hastings.
> 
> Andrew as a Sandan came to Sydney, Darren Help set up the Epping Dojo, at a Church Hall on the corner of Mardsen Rd & Mobbs Lane. Darren was graded to 6th Kyu, when andrew decided to return to Japan, leaving Darren to run the dojo as a 6th Kyu.
> 
> Darren was graded to shodan by *some winging Pom *from from Tasmania, who ripped Darren off hundreds of Dollars. I know this for a fact as I trained in Hobart with him, and he bousted about it, the same way as he back stabbed a yank called Robert Bautgarten.
> 
> Darren was graded to Nidan by Andrew on one of his whirl wind tours.
> 
> Greg , Andrew and Paul received Ky grades from Darren. Nidan & Shidoshi. So it was darren that introduced the 3 to Ninjutsu, Paul was brought to training by a mate of his who had a drinking problem.
> 
> Shortly after his Nidan was awarded a mad scot , by the name of Gordon Simmons arrived at the Dojo, a man with a questionable driving record. Simmons couldn't get the grades he wanted and now trains in Genbukan.
> 
> Paul, Greg and some other guy a motor mechanic started training with Gordon, while also training at Darrens Dojo. They lied to darren about certain things and openly underminded Darren's Training at the Epping Dojo.
> 
> Darren told them to leave the Dojo, Paul attempted to blackmail Darren by making false accusations that he was screwing female students. Darren still told them to leave.
> 
> Darren grew sick of the ******** within Bujinkan. The lack of support and the childish behaviour of *Ninja wankers.
> 
> *So History has been revealed to the truth.



This surely is unnecessary, I don't have a view or knowledge of any of this but am following it with interest, however I don't appreciate these comments and I imagine I'm not alone in finding this language unsavoury. I haven't reported it because I suspect there won't be any more posts and if there are Chris will very ably put things correctly...without bad language!


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## JohnF

Mr Alcorn, 

It will be hard to talk in Person, since I am in Dublin Ireland. Where I study Shinobi and Ming Chuan under master John Fanning. Do you have a problem with that?

The Information was given to me by an Aussie , David Duckett , a Soldier I meet at a  Robert Bussey seminar,years ago Plus a US Navy sailor who trained under Robert Bautgarten from the USS Blue Ridge. Both had matching information, when spoken to seperately. 

So If you have two different sources with the same details, maybe there is credence to what they say. 

Do you deny ever training under Darren Hastings?

Regards
JohnF


----------



## Chris Parker

It would depend on where they got their information, John. If they both repeated a story told to them by the same person, then that would only count as one instance repeated twice.

And, in terms of your system, if you enjoy it, hey, great, but, uh, the number of red flags I find would drive a bull mad.

http://www.mingchuan.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=15

I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry going through that page....

Of course, it then gets funnier....

http://www.mingchuan.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=16


----------



## Tez3

JohnF said:


> Mr Alcorn,
> 
> *It will be hard to talk in Person, *since I am in Dublin Ireland. Where I study Shinobi and Ming Chuan under master John Fanning. Do you have a problem with that?
> 
> The Information was given to me by an Aussie , David Duckett , a Soldier I meet at a Robert Bussey seminar,years ago Plus a US Navy sailor who trained under Robert Bautgarten from the USS Blue Ridge. Both had matching information, when spoken to seperately.
> 
> So If you have two different sources with the same details, maybe there is credence to what they say.
> 
> Do you deny ever training under Darren Hastings?
> 
> Regards
> JohnF




He will mean discussing by either private message on here or by email. Then, if the discussion between you gets heated it doesn't derail the thread.


----------



## gregtca

Ming  irish ninja's , yep i beleave that - rolol , pmlol , im sorry but no NO NO NO NO and NO


----------



## Dean Whittle

Attacking the system John studies as valid or invalid does not counter the truth or otherwise of his story, it's a straw man. Highlighting that it comes to him 2nd hand is a better option, or perhaps just telling us your version of events.

With respect


----------



## Dean Whittle

John,

A straw man is an argumentative technique, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man for more details.

It's actually not the tactic I was thinking of, rather it was ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem), where by questioning the validity of the system you study it negates the truthfullness of the story you've relayed, when in fact the two things are unrelated.

I'm not supporting your story, although I have heard it before from different sources to your own, but the thread should stay on track (the history of the Bujinkan in Australia) rather than get sidelined by discussions about your training.

With respect


----------



## Chris Parker

Agreed, but there are also a number of examples that would put John's story under greater scrutiny, as it were. One is the system he is training in, as it shows a lack of discernment in terms of credibility (the idea of "Shinobi" being the older, Chinese form of Ninjutsu, for instance... when "Shinobi" is a Japanese word and Japanese pronunciation.... should be enough to set off warning bells in anyone who considers it being anything close to a genuine martial art, let alone having the heritage it claims), as well as the rather large number of personal accusatory and implied phrasings in the original post:

"... some whinging Pom from Tasmania..."

"... introduced by a mate of his who had a drinking problem...."

"... a man with a questionable driving record..."

There's just too much animosity below the surface to necessarily take it all on face value. I'm not saying that there isn't some form of accuracy to it, but it does seem to be rather skewed the way it's presented here. Additionally, I don't recall Greg saying that he spent his entire time under Andrew Beattie, so saying that he started under Darren Hastings doesn't mean that Greg doesn't consider himself to have primarily been a student of Andrews.

I'd be more interested in knowing where this story came to you from, John, and whether it's actually two different sources, or one with a chip on their shoulder spreading stories to attack others. At this point, the delivery of the claims lends them little credibility without further corroboration.


----------



## oaktree

There is no such word shinobi in Chinese.  If you reading the hanzi or Japanese kanji For ninja in Chinese its ren zhe but most likely Tan zi would be the word for a scout agent.It strange that a zhongguo ren would use a nihonjin Word from 1917 but I suppose the history is that during The first Sino Japanese war a ninja came to China fell in Love with a Chinese girl they had a son thus spawnsChinese ninjutsu its Chinese cause the leader was from China It's ninjutsu cause it came from japan.


----------



## Chris Parker

Right. This'll be the end of this part of the conversation. JohnF, if you wish to continue to discuss this, I suggest a PM to myself or Greg, as this isn't something that is needed to continue here for a number of reasons. To that end, I will try to address your comments so you don't think that anything is being swept under the rug, or ignored, but I will also explain why this is not continuing in a public forum.



Tez3 said:


> I haven't reported it because I suspect there won't be any more posts and if there are Chris will very ably put things correctly...without bad language!



That's the aim here.



JohnF said:


> As stated before, why don't we get in contact with the person (the instructor) himself. I am sure a search on the web can locate him, as I found him, if it is the same individual that David and Mike spoke about.
> 
> As for my Training in Ireland, Ming Chuan, and Shinobi have been taught since 1917. as Master fanning has records going back that far.
> 
> I do like Mt Whittles mature respect , to comments made.
> 
> I am just raising a point about the history and truth of Ninjutsu in Australia, as raised by David Duckett and Mike, both ex Bujinkan, as was Robert Bussey. lets ask the question of Greg and Paul, "did you or did you not train under the person discussed above?"
> 
> The truth is out there.



Firstly, you may notice that I've edited the quotes here. And what I've done is I've removed the instructors name in question (and have requested that the rest of the posts that mention him are similarly altered) on the request of the person themselves. Basically, he's feeling more than a little harassed due to a sudden influx of emails about things that happened 25 years ago that he barely remembers himself. Suggesting that people contact an individual who is currently active and promoting themselves is one thing, suggesting that contact be made with someone trying to quietly live their lives is another. That's why the post of yours was edited to remove their contact details in the first place. Not a good thing to put out there without someones permission, and all that.

I'll come back to your system, though, as that has proved relatively relevant.... 



JohnF said:


> Its Nice to see how people like Greg Alcorn, Andrew Beattie and Paul Desilva have tried to rewrite History.
> 
> They say they trained under Andrew Macdonald, Little do people know, that they started their training under a different instructor.
> 
> Andrew as a Sandan came to Sydney, said instructor Help set up the Epping Dojo, at a Church Hall on the corner of Mardsen Rd & Mobbs Lane. The instructor was graded to 6th Kyu, when andrew decided to return to Japan, leaving the instructor to run the dojo as a 6th Kyu.
> 
> The instructor was graded to Nidan by Andrew on one of his whirl wind tours.
> 
> Greg , Andrew and Paul received Ky grades from said instructor. Nidan & Shidoshi. So it was this instructor that introduced the 3 to Ninjutsu, Paul was brought to training by a mate of his who had a drinking problem.
> 
> Shortly after his Nidan was awarded a mad scot , by the name of Gordon Simmons arrived at the Dojo, a man with a questionable driving record. Simmons couldn't get the grades he wanted and now trains in Genbukan.
> 
> Paul, Greg and some other guy a motor mechanic started training with Gordon, while also training at this instructors Dojo. They lied to the instructor about certain things and openly underminded the instructors Training at the Epping Dojo.
> 
> The instructor told them to leave the Dojo, Paul attempted to blackmail the instructor by making false accusations that he was screwing female students. The instructor still told them to leave.
> 
> The instructor grew sick of the ******** within Bujinkan. The lack of support and the childish behaviour of Ninja wankers.
> 
> So History has been revealed to the truth.



Right, so to clear things up. 

Yes, Greg, Paul etc were students of this instructor first, however that instructor was under the authority of Andrew MacDonald, which means that Greg was perfectly fine in saying that he is/was a student of Andrew MacDonalds. You kinda spell that out in this post, so I'm not sure where you think the lie is. As far as the rest, the way the person in question remembers it, there was a different belief in the way training should be, and that was the cause of certain people leaving the dojo.

Essentially what we have here is a couple of guys (Paul, Greg etc) starting under a person who was running a dojo under the authority of Andrew MacDonald, hence being Andrew MacDonald students. Other people came in, some people got rank to greater or lesser degrees, and training beliefs led the individuals to go in different directions. Greg (and Paul) stayed under Andrew, and therefore consider themselves to be students of Andrew. The instructor himself eventually stopped teaching for Andrew for reasons that are theirs. Of course, the way you told it was a little more, uh, colourful, but that's about it. And the degree of negativity may not help your argument at all (it comes across as bitter, racist, and angry, really, and as the instructor in question has no idea who you are, or how you're affected by this, that's a little confusing).

One thing he did say, though, was that one of the things that pushed him out of the art was being introduced to this bizarre mash-up supposed system called "Shinobi", something about "Irish Chinese ninja arts?", which was just so bad that it took his heart out of what he was doing.

There's more to this, but it's not relevant to this. If you need more information, feel free to PM myself, and I'll happily tell you, though. But discussion of this person is not going to lead anywhere good for them, or anyone involved, and opening up this site to harassment suits isn't something that we should be aiming for. Deal?


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## Colin Power

Just found this thread so apologies if the interest has been lost.

I trained with Wayne L. Roy from 1983 till early 1987 ... some will say the Golden years. I won't add anything to the she said he said in the tread but would like to tell you about the fun things we got up to in those days and explain my perception of the training of those years.

As for names well we all called each other by last names as a sign of respect and discipline. My memory has faded with some of the names and most likely few will remember me as I tried to train and keep in the shadows so to speak. Well since training with Wayne Roy was more about exploring all aspects of ourself ... you had to come out of the shadows and grow as a human.

Glad to hear that Leonie was graded and even happier to hear she changed her name to Leonie Furner ... I knew her previous name and even her Maiden name( she would probably track me down and kill me if I revealed it). Very happy to also hear that Maureen Jensen pursued her Ninjutsu dream ... I have a soft spot for her, probably from the beatings she gave me.

So what did we get up to in those days that isn't often done in modern dojos...

We learnt to abseil and run down cliffs... haven't seen that in modern dojo brochures. We had a dedicated pool at one dojo to do water training in our gees... very hard to get out of a pool quickly and silently when you are fully clothed.

The first dojo was out the back of Roy senior's home... an open paddock surrounded by barbed wire fences which we dive rolled over in evasion training ... hopefully no cow pats on the other side. If it was wet cold and raining ... no excuse you were expected to attend training. Todays students... would they tolerate this approach?

Admission to training was after 2 interviews... 1st night come and watch the whole night without any explanations then an interview before you were asked to come back for a 2nd night of watching. If you weren't what Mr. Roy was looking for in a student you weren't asked back.This procedure loosened up over time from memory. It did sort out the people brought in by the hype of being a Ninja though.

Wayne Roy was always looking to integrate training into life so the senior student would go out to restaurants and nightclubs as a group to remember what you were learning were tools for life. We had fun and we were like a big family... sometimes we disagreed.

We explored the esoteric side of things with the help of a spiritual leader (for a better word) that Wayne Roy introduced to his senior students. Wayne was always looking to push the boundaries.

For me these were great years and I have moved on to find other great people to share the road with...

Stories...why did it go this way not that way...don't really care. Why did it splinter and fracture... who is to blame? Growth is to blame... when you create officers you also bring out emotions... some flare briefly some runaway like a bushfire.

The grading system as I understood it in the early days was... all dressed in black (funny that) junior student, senior student, instructor no time line on when you would achieve  any grading. You could be a senior student for life because instructors were those that were going to be sent out to instruct on full time basis (your job).

All in all it was Fun... it was crazy... it forced you to grow as a person.

With respect,

Colin Power (once a senior student of Wayne L. Roy)


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## Dean Whittle

Colin,

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

Although I wasn't based in Brisbane, we did similar events in Sydney. It was definitely out of the ordinary and not something that could be repeated these days.

All the best.

With respect


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## James Diamond Roberts

Howdy. I started training at surrey hills, Elizabeth st Sydney way back in about 87. Out of memory Sensei Brett Reed? Reid? Was the head instructor I think. Dion Kalos was also one of the teachers and a young Michael Tattoli. Had the pleasure and honor of meeting Dr Hatsumi back then also. What a shame girls and work got in the way. Really enjoyed the time back then and could certainly use the discipline again in my life!!


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## James Diamond Roberts

Colin Power said:


> Just found this thread so apologies if the interest has been lost.
> 
> I trained with Wayne L. Roy from 1983 till early 1987 ... some will say the Golden years. I won't add anything to the she said he said in the tread but would like to tell you about the fun things we got up to in those days and explain my perception of the training of those years.
> 
> As for names well we all called each other by last names as a sign of respect and discipline. My memory has faded with some of the names and most likely few will remember me as I tried to train and keep in the shadows so to speak. Well since training with Wayne Roy was more about exploring all aspects of ourself ... you had to come out of the shadows and grow as a human.
> 
> Glad to hear that Leonie was graded and even happier to hear she changed her name to Leonie Furner ... I knew her previous name and even her Maiden name( she would probably track me down and kill me if I revealed it). Very happy to also hear that Maureen Jensen pursued her Ninjutsu dream ... I have a soft spot for her, probably from the beatings she gave me.
> 
> So what did we get up to in those days that isn't often done in modern dojos...
> 
> We learnt to abseil and run down cliffs... haven't seen that in modern dojo brochures. We had a dedicated pool at one dojo to do water training in our gees... very hard to get out of a pool quickly and silently when you are fully clothed.
> 
> The first dojo was out the back of Roy senior's home... an open paddock surrounded by barbed wire fences which we dive rolled over in evasion training ... hopefully no cow pats on the other side. If it was wet cold and raining ... no excuse you were expected to attend training. Todays students... would they tolerate this approach?
> 
> Admission to training was after 2 interviews... 1st night come and watch the whole night without any explanations then an interview before you were asked to come back for a 2nd night of watching. If you weren't what Mr. Roy was looking for in a student you weren't asked back.This procedure loosened up over time from memory. It did sort out the people brought in by the hype of being a Ninja though.
> 
> Wayne Roy was always looking to integrate training into life so the senior student would go out to restaurants and nightclubs as a group to remember what you were learning were tools for life. We had fun and we were like a big family... sometimes we disagreed.
> 
> We explored the esoteric side of things with the help of a spiritual leader (for a better word) that Wayne Roy introduced to his senior students. Wayne was always looking to push the boundaries.
> 
> For me these were great years and I have moved on to find other great people to share the road with...
> 
> Stories...why did it go this way not that way...don't really care. Why did it splinter and fracture... who is to blame? Growth is to blame... when you create officers you also bring out emotions... some flare briefly some runaway like a bushfire.
> 
> The grading system as I understood it in the early days was... all dressed in black (funny that) junior student, senior student, instructor no time line on when you would achieve  any grading. You could be a senior student for life because instructors were those that were going to be sent out to instruct on full time basis (your job).
> 
> All in all it was Fun... it was crazy... it forced you to grow as a person.
> 
> With respect,
> 
> Colin Power (once a senior student of Wayne L. Roy)



Excellent work Mr Power. It was a lot of fun and many great memories.


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## Tez3

James Diamond Roberts said:


> Excellent work Mr Power. It was a lot of fun and many great memories.




I'm afraid he only posted the once and hasn't been back since 2013, the thread itself is 8 years old. Welcome to MT though, hopefully you'll find more recent threads and posts interesting.


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