# Any stance should work... with training



## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2008)

I was reading a thread in the kenpo/kempo section on stances 

And I do agree that stances and the training of stances is very important, but I began to think about my own training and the styles I train or have trained. And I feel that if you can only fight or defend from specific trained stances you have a problem.

I do believe that stances are very important because they teach you many very important things proper body alignment, root, power, etc and without a proper stance, which also means without proper stance training, you have nothing, no root, no speed and no power. Without that knowledge of stance you could end up fighting on a faulty foundation and be far from effective when you might just need it most.

But with all that I also feel that in reality your basic fighting stance should be any stance you happen to be in at the moment. If attacked you really need to be able to respond from however you happen to be standing and you likely will not have time to get into any proper MA related stance before the attack.

Xingyiquan for example put a lot of emphasis on stance training (Santi Shi) and it is the basis, the root, of Xingyiquan. It is where your strength speed and power comes from and the training of santi shi will train you to get into the proper stance and use the proper form without thinking and it becomes automatic, and it really needs to be. But if you are attacked you likely will not be in santi so you really need to know how to respond form any position you are in. But it is because of the base training of Santi that you will then automatically revert to it and you will not have to think about how to respond or how your body should be aligned or how to move, it is all there and that is gained from a proper stance and proper stance training. BANG!!! Your are Attacked. Respond with Piquan (if the situation rates piquan that is) Now you are only going to be able to respond with piquan properly if and only if you have done extensive training of santi shi. You will not have time to think my foot goes here my focus goes here  You need to automatically respond and if you have trained santi you respond fast, you are able to root and you have a whole lot of power. But you were not initially standing in santi so you need to know how to defend form any stance you are in.

The Sanda I train has no official stance but that does not mean you dont train a stance, if you are doing Tuishou you are training a stance and you do a lot of tuishou in sanda and it is similar but not exactly the same as Taiji or Xingyi tuishou. But regardless you are training a stance but the basis is to be able to respond to or defend against an attack from anyway that you might be standing in at the moment. 

And I am just wondering what others views of this are?


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## DavidCC (Jun 27, 2008)

wouldn't part of your initial reaction to a surprise attack be to obtain a stable position (stance) from which to further defend or retaliate?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 27, 2008)

It speaks to being in a ready position at all times. Obviously you can't choose the direction of the suprise but you can be in better positions than others.
Sean


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## cfr (Jun 27, 2008)

What's a "ready position at all times"? This is sincerely a question of ignorance, not of disagreement.


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## Kacey (Jun 27, 2008)

cfr said:


> What's a "ready position at all times"? This is sincerely a question of ignorance, not of disagreement.



I don't want to speak for Touch of Death, but it speaks, IMHO, to a combination of awareness and readiness.  I find myself automatically shifting when I'm off balance, into a stance (formal or informal) that is balanced and easy to move from - it doesn't really matter what I'm doing; it could be walking the dog, doing yard work, waiting in line at the grocery store, whatever.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2008)

What I am trying to say is Stances, training stances and understanding stances is very important to martial arts. Without training the stances of your chosen style you miss the root or the base form which all your martial arts comes from.

However if you expect to start any confrontation in that stance or even get into it at all you are likely in for a shock, if attacked you will not have time to think about it. BUT the understanding of that stance will help you defend yourself. However if your defense is dependant on that stance you may have a big problem. You need to be able to apply what you know form any way you happen to be standing.

Also if when you feel threatened and if you get into your systems given stance you may have just escalated the situation to something it never would have been if you have stood there differently. It is, IMO, better to not give away your intensions and be able to do what needs to be done from a less aggressive posture.

My Xingyi sifu would take, what appears to be, an incredibly non-confrontational stance if he feel threatened. But from there he can apply any of the Xingyi he knows and hat application comes form the understanding of santi shi.

There was as story I posted here a couple of years ago about a woman that was a Sanshou fighter in NYC, She was walking on the street late one night and a guy appeared out of no where and grabbed her by the waist and tried to knock her down. There was no time to take a defensive position, she rooted and punched him in the face. He fell backwards and tried again and got more of the same thing and decided to run away. She knew how to fight no matter what her physical position and the punch was not even a thought it just happened. She did not think of a stance or rooting it also just occurred. She never even took the stance you se sanshou fighters get into in the ring. Without that basic understanding and a whole lot of training things could have gone a whole lot different. And if she needed to get into a stance for fighting she would not have been able to respond since she was holding a bag of groceries and talking on the cell phone.

To me stances and stance training are incredibly important but you need to be able fight from anyway you happen to be standing.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 27, 2008)

From my one-time-only (hopefully never again) incident of having to apply violence 'in the wilds', I found that 'stances' were as instinctive and fluid as the techniques I used.

From my personal experience, a 'stance' is no more difficult to utilise than any other movement and I must be severely missing the point because I don't see the problem.

You use whatever technique fits the circumstance and the stance that goes with that technique will be a part of the execution.  In training, other than at the very beginning, we were never taught to take a stance and execute a technique.  You execute the technique.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 27, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> ....if you expect to start any confrontation in that stance or even get into it at all you are likely in for a shock, if attacked you will not have time to think about it. BUT the understanding of that stance will help you defend yourself.


This sort of crystallizes my view of the purpose of stances and stance training. San Soo's fighting stance is, as Xue Sheng has said of some of his own experience, whatever position you happen to be in when the attack begins. My GM, if he knows it's coming, stands with feet comfortably apart and hands on hips.

That said, there _are _eight basic stances of the art. They aren't for 'setting' up to fight from, however, but to move to and through in order to use the whole body mass as a fist, a block, to take his balance, etc., capitalizing on whatever opening he offers up.

And more succinctly:



			
				Sukerkin said:
			
		

> You use whatever technique fits the circumstance and the stance that goes with that technique will be a part of the execution. In training, other than at the very beginning, we were never taught to take a stance and execute a technique. You execute the technique.


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## Big Don (Jun 27, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> It speaks to being in a ready position at all times. Obviously you can't choose the direction of the suprise but you can be in better positions than others.
> Sean


On your back being one of the less preferable...


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## Big Don (Jun 27, 2008)

Can _Situational Awareness _ be taught? How?


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## kidswarrior (Jun 27, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Can _Situational Awareness _ be taught? How?


Without a doubt, as I think Kacey illustrates in her post. But this is probably a topic for its own thread, since this one is about stances.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 28, 2008)

It's my opinion that a stance is actually one of the simpler aspects, as whatever stance you've gotten in to training several hundred or thousand times will be what you will revert to.....just make sure it's practical.

Footwork is what is tougher in the real world......as we all practice in nice, neat dojos with debris cleared away so we don't trip.....and when it REALLY hits the fan out in the 'wild', well... there's usually a curb here, a water meter there, a beer bottle behind you, a tree to your right.....it's either icy, muddy, or there's wet grass.....etc, etc, etc.......is your stance and footwork going to allow you to maintain your balance and move on such surfaces?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 28, 2008)

Big Don said:


> On your back being one of the less preferable...


Some people do quite well on there back. Its how I might fight a boxer or a TKD expert. 
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 28, 2008)

cfr said:


> What's a "ready position at all times"? This is sincerely a question of ignorance, not of disagreement.


Always sitting or standing with good posture, always have the foot you want forward in a fight nearest to possible danger. Believe it or not, the military really harps on this stuff too. 
Sean


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It's my opinion that a stance is actually one of the simpler aspects,



I think this depends on the style actually. Per my example of Xingyiquan the stance and the training of it is not simple but the understanding of it is incredibly important and without it, (this is more to the next part of your post) there is no foot work. But then the Xingyi stance is not all that complicated either, once you have survived the training of it :EG:.



sgtmac_46 said:


> Footwork is what is tougher in the real world......as we all practice in nice, neat dojos with debris cleared away so we don't trip.....and when it REALLY hits the fan out in the 'wild', well... there's usually a curb here, a water meter there, a beer bottle behind you, a tree to your right.....it's either icy, muddy, or there's wet grass.....etc, etc, etc.......is your stance and footwork going to allow you to maintain your balance and move on such surfaces?



Not being confrontational here but we don&#8217;t all practice in perfect conditions. I tend to practice outside as much as possible. Talk to some of the Systema guys and you will find they train a lot of different terrains and situations. Go to China and the majority of your training could be outside in all sorts of conditions. But I completely agree that training in a nice neat air-conditioned school is a whole heck of a lot different than having to do anything on a hot summer day or in a rain storm or on the grass, etc. And if all you ever did was train in near perfect conditions once you get outside of those the whole thing changes drastically.

If you practice your stance properly it should work anywhere but this goes to what I am saying it is likely that in any one of the places or situations you have posted that you will not be in any stance and therefore you should be able to defend yourself from any position but I still feel it is that basic training of stance that is a major factor in having that ability.

Now to clarify when I am talking about training a stance I am not just talking about the legs. Proper stance training works the entire body.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2008)

cfr said:


> What's a "ready position at all times"? This is sincerely a question of ignorance, not of disagreement.


 
Whatever youre given styles main fighting stance is. Sorry I am using XS terminology and it is not universal and I sometimes forget that.

Basically it is good to train whatever your styles main fighting stance is but the chances of you being in it when attacked are highly unlikely and when you feel threatened to get into it immediately may just escalate things further and faster than they would have gone if you had not.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 28, 2008)

Since I have been practicing Santi it is easy for me to go into it and be natural. At first it was such a wierd stance and painful to sink into lol.
I like the Bujinkan or any X-kan kamae Shizen no kamae.
I find this and a combonation of a relaxed Santi to be ideal for me.
I think of stances to be transitions of movement from one set to another be it the process of blocking and retreating to attacking and advancing.
Of course you should be able to adapt to any way your body happens to be in transition or stance and this is where fundamentals come in.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 28, 2008)

Just to add a little 'real world' experience to the 'external conditions' part of the equation.  

When I studied Lau, I trained inside on a nice smooth wooden floor wearing a lovely, loose, non-constricting _gi_.

When I had to fight for real I was wearing cowboy boots and tight, multi-layered, patched jeans (plus a somewhat constricting waistcoat and jacket) in the archetypal dark alley on wet cobble-stones.  Everything worked.

A 'stance' is just standing 'right' when all is said and done, it's not a mystical spell that takes minutes to cast and requires perfect conditions.  It might be that I simply trained under a different regime but other comments suggest not.  A stance is not seperate from the technique, it's part of it and was, for me, as automatic as throwing a punch or kick in the first place.

I might just have been lucky, after all one incident is not much of a sample.  Can anyone else elaborate on how their training and the actuality matched up?


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 29, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I think this depends on the style actually. Per my example of Xingyiquan the stance and the training of it is not simple but the understanding of it is incredibly important and without it, (this is more to the next part of your post) there is no foot work. But then the Xingyi stance is not all that complicated either, once you have survived the training of it :EG:.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  I keep my stance simple.......a more or less traditional boxing stance, with the strong side rear, feet at 45 degrees, shoulders with apart, elbows in close, and the hands forward, chin tucked slightly.  T

hat also puts my sidearm away from whoever I am dealing with.  That's about standard operating procedure for 99% of police defensive tactics training out there.  KISS simple.


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## ares (Jun 29, 2008)

If you are just walking down the street and are attacked, then you won't be in any stance, but after the first reaction, you can put yourself in a much better position. In all the years of training, I will automatically get in a better position after some distance is put between the attacker and myself. I don't know what position would be, it would depend on the location and how many people were involved. In the beginning I don't feel that there is a stance you can get into being you don't know when the attack will be or with how many people. It may all come down to how fast you can process the information. Too soon and you could be considered  the aggressor and make things worse.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Can anyone else elaborate on how their training and the actuality matched up?


 
After many years in security and some of that in hospitals (emergency rooms) and one with a Mental Health and Detox Unit I sadly can say yes I can.

Since all confrontations were either in Uniform or in a sport coat it was noting like how I was training at the time but I was surprised at how much of my taiji rooting, absorb and redirect worked and that was followed by Qinna or just me simply holding the person down until they calmed down. But then most confrontations were avoided by Wordfu (happily). I can only remember one time where I ever took any type of stance and that was more to slow the person down (Bleeding Heroin addict) because I did not want to touch them to be honest. And it did stop them long enough (they were charging at me) and make them think (surprisingly) and stop and revert to screaming insults at me, which I much preferred. Later however it got nasty but at least I have gloves on by then and that is where the rooting and redirection of force came in very handy.

In that situation Taiji works much better than say Xingyiquan only because Xingyi tends to be very aggressive and is MUCH more likely to get you sued. But then I had not trained much Xingyi t that time. I did recently find out while working with some Wing Chun people that almost all of my defense is form Taiji and the majority of my attacks are Xingyiquan. Although as of today I am not sure if my responses to attack were not to some extent Sanda.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 29, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I did recently find out while working with some Wing Chun people that almost all of my defense is form Taiji and the majority of my attacks are Xingyiquan. Although as of today I am not sure if my responses to attack were not to some extent Sanda.


Nice to know someone else finds mix-and-match with styles to be effective. Maybe this is how stances really do work--across disciplines, calling on whatever training we've had. As *Skn *said, the stance is not separate from the technique. This is underscored by the anecdote you gave, *X S*, on the woman walking home who--through the whole attack--never got into a *stance*. Still, her stance training obviously gave her whatever platform she needed to launch her very effective counterattack. What else can we ask a stance to do?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 30, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Whatever youre given styles main fighting stance is. Sorry I am using XS terminology and it is not universal and I sometimes forget that.
> 
> Basically it is good to train whatever your styles main fighting stance is but the chances of you being in it when attacked are highly unlikely and when you feel threatened to get into it immediately may just escalate things further and faster than they would have gone if you had not.


Not so sure I agree. Some ready stances are more subtle than others.
Sean


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 30, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Not so sure I agree. Some ready stances are more subtle than others.
> Sean


 
Actually some styles have have none.... officially, they use natural ways of standing to train.

But if the stance is subtle is it better to train it or ignore training it?

If you are attacked will you be in it?

If you are not in it will training it have helped you defend yourself even though you are not in it?

Police/Military Sanda actually has no official stance. But if you train Tuishou you are still training a stance. You are learning how to root and how to direct force and power (and it sure as hell strengthens the legs &#8211; but I try to avoid mentioning the leg strength part since it invariably brings about the &#8220;I know a lot of ways to strengthen legs without stances&#8221; comment). But if you think of the applications of and who generally is trained Police Military Sanda it is kind of silly to think that you will ever be given the chance to take a stance. But because you trained properly you gain a lot from it, and in this case it is Tuishou. Which admittedly is extremely different than stance training in Xingyiquan. 

Taiji and Bagua also train stances but generally by performing a form. Except in the case of Chen style that does, depending on the teacher, train stances as stationary postures.


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## Tames D (Jun 30, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> *Actually some styles have have none.... officially, they use natural ways of standing to train.*
> 
> But if the stance is subtle is it better to train it or ignore training it?
> 
> ...


Absolutely!


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## gilgsn (Aug 5, 2008)

In systema, we have no stance.. A stance assumes that you know someone is attacking you, and that most likely, you are attacked by one opponent. Most real life situations will be much different than an 'agreed-upon' fight.  It can limit your mobility, and signal your opponent that you are ready and trained, which may make him more agressive or even pull out a weapon.. I think that indeed keeping a good form is more important. If there is trouble in the air, you can raise your arms in a non-agressive manner (scratch your head maybe..), and start breathing to relax and get some more oxygen in your blood.. We are used to move from a regular standing position, not a weird, unnatural one. When the stuff hits the fan, we'll revert to what's more natural. So, we might as well train from there..


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## bowser666 (Aug 5, 2008)

From my experience there are attacking/blocking stances, and also transitional stances. The former usual provide a stable root to either repel or strike from while the latter allows you to move in between stances. No one stance is perfect. Just be aware and block,  it wont matter if you are rooted or not.  Hands up and blocking is better than a good defensive stance after you get hit once. IMO


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 5, 2008)

gilgsn said:


> In systema, we have no stance.. A stance assumes that you know someone is attacking you, and that most likely, you are attacked by one opponent. Most real life situations will be much different than an 'agreed-upon' fight. It can limit your mobility, and signal your opponent that you are ready and trained, which may make him more agressive or even pull out a weapon.. I think that indeed keeping a good form is more important. If there is trouble in the air, you can raise your arms in a non-agressive manner (scratch your head maybe..), and start breathing to relax and get some more oxygen in your blood.. We are used to move from a regular standing position, not a weird, unnatural one. When the stuff hits the fan, we'll revert to what's more natural. So, we might as well train from there..


 
I've been waiting for a Systema person to answer and I agree. 

Interestingly enough the stance my Xingyiquan Sifu always recommended was to raise your arms in a non-aggressive manner. Form there he said he can go into any Xingyiquan defense/attack he needed to. And Xingyi is VERY big on training stances. But the stance is a root to use not something to jump into at the first sign of a problem.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 5, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interestingly enough the stance my Xingyiquan Sifu always recommended was to raise your arms in a non-aggressive manner. Form there he said he can go into any Xingyiquan defense/attack he needed to.


This reminds me of The Fence made famous by Geoff Thompson (but maybe he got it from Xingyi :mst. I use it/teach it for those situations in which you might have time to actually get into a stance. And have found it works exactly as your instructor says. 



> And Xingyi is VERY big on training stances. But the stance is a root to use not something to jump into at the first sign of a problem.


Exactly! :asian:


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