# Your ranking system



## Seig (Nov 10, 2004)

I read the link provided about what the stars mean. What I found interesting was the 15 degrees of black belt. I study American Kenpo. We only go up to 10, could you please elaborate more on your ranking system?


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## jibran (Nov 10, 2004)

Ben Cole made a good post about this on MAP:


			
				bencole said:
			
		

> Soke made mention of the idea of the "additional" five levels of tenth dan as early as 1983.... Although they are called "Eleventh dan", "Twelfth dan", etc. those are merely heuristics to separate the differences. All of these ranks are different forms of tenth dan, although they are given out in a particular order--which makes the "eleventh", "twelfth", etc. labeling adopted by some seem sensical. The ranks are as follows:
> 
> Judan Chigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Earth aka "11th Dan")
> Judan Suigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Water aka "12th Dan")
> ...


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## AnimEdge (Nov 10, 2004)

I think the highest i heard mine go up to is 5th
I think i can tel yall this 
anyhow you must do not only that lvl but everything below it during that test
we have in American Ninutsu(RBWI):

-White(Default)
This is the default sence all youneed to know is the school rules and stances

-Green(6months or so)Im at 
You have the basics down: Kicks, Punches, Knees, Elbows, and basic techs

-High-Green(8months)I will be early Dec 
You have the basic guarding down: Guarding, Evasion, more complex kicks and punches few more basic techs

-Blue
More complex kicks and punches, lotsa combinations,break falls,fakes and feints, and redirection skills

-High-Blue
Even more complex Kicks, more combinations, sweeps, and pain and point pressures

-Purple
Join Manipulations, Throws, and basic weapon jamming and take downs

-High-Purple
Lotsa ground drills and ground techniques and ground subbmisions

-Brown
Lots of Trapping, and a whole lot of Half Staff Club and Bo staff tech and disarms

-High Brown
Lots of Claw, Kubaton and short stick and sword tech, disarms and so on

-Red
Lots and lots of knife and net and wall stuff

-High-Red
Projectile,stealth, 2-1, 3rd party, sentry removal and guns

-Black
Everything! above and a 3 hour ***-being kicked sparing session

There is higher ones but there pretty hush hush about it, all i know is most dont go up much higher at my school becouse they basicly to be a 2nd you have to do like the balck belt test twice and so on but im unsure


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## Dale Seago (Nov 10, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> I read the link provided about what the stars mean. What I found interesting was the 15 degrees of black belt. I study American Kenpo. We only go up to 10, could you please elaborate more on your ranking system?



From the FAQ page at my site: 



> *Q:* What about belt ranks - kyu and dan grades?
> 
> *A:* These are a recent development in Japanese arts. The old arts have shoden, chuden, and okuden (low, middle, and advanced) levels, with the hiden or secret oral teachings passed only to a select few. Bujinkan students do not receive kyu or dan ranks in any of the nine systems, but Hatsumi sensei has instituted such grades for the Bujinkan "umbrella" organization. The current rank structure is modern, in the sense that kyu and dan grades are used; yet it also harks back to the ancient shoden/chuden/okuden form in that there are three general levels of training and understanding.
> 
> ...


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## Satt (Dec 2, 2004)

Is there a standard ranking system in the Bujinkan? If so, what are the ranks called and the belt colors in order??? Thanks a lot. I probably should know this, but I am still a beginner.


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## Tengu6 (Dec 3, 2004)

The standard rank system in the Bujinkan Is as follows:

*White Belt* = Mukyu (before rank) - No patch
*Green belt* = Kyu levels (9-1) - Red patch w/white border and kanji
9th kyu = no stars
8th kyu = 1 silver star
7th kyu = 2 silver stars
6th kyu = 3 silver stars
5th kyu = 4 silver stars
4th kyu = 1 gold star (all siver stars are removed at this point)
3rd kyu = 2 gold stars
2nd kyu = 3 gold stars
1st kyu = 4 gold stars
*Black Belt* = Dan levels (1-15) - Red Patch w/black border and black kanji
Star cycle starts over - starting with none
Shodan (1st dan) = no stars
Ni dan (2dn dan) = 1 silver star
San dan (3rd dan) = 2 silver stars
Yon dan (4th dan) = 3 silver stars
Go dan (5th dan) = Red Patch w/black kanji outlined in white and a white border (no stars)
Roku dan (6th dan) = 1 gold star
Nana dan (7th dan) = 2 gold stars
Hatchi dan (8th dan) = 3 gold stars
Kyu dan (9th dan) = 4 gold stars
Ju dan (10th dan) = orange/tellow patch with green kanji and a light blue border - No stars
11th through 15th dan I am not sure if stars are worn

By 5th dan one should have seen and be able to effectivly demonstrait the scrolls from all 9 ryu. Rank given beyond 5th kyu is based on skill, proficiency and the ability to "flow", interchanging portions of the techniques as needed in a given situation.

Hatsumi has stated that anyone NOT training with him in the last 10 years continuously is NOT true Shihan....as the level of his teaching has dramaticly changed or I should say progressed due to the practitioners having gotten better to a point that he can now elevate his level of teaching......regular training means just that TRAINING....not merely showing up for a photo op with Hatsumi.

this is a primary reason for the 11th through 15th dans are to say "these are TRUE shihan. The ranks are based more on character and contribution (not monatary) to the Bujinkan.

Hope that helps a bit.

Markk Bush


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## Tengu6 (Dec 3, 2004)

Ju dan (10th dan) = orange/*yellow* patch with green kanji and a light blue border - No stars



typo........

Markk Bush


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## Tengu6 (Dec 3, 2004)

I should also note that some schools add other colored belts to split things up a bit...most notably a brown belt around 5th or 4th kyu


Also, most schools do not use the star system so often..mostly because rank is generaly not a huge focus for Bujinkan practitioners.....it is more about the training....but some like the formality.

Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (Dec 3, 2004)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> By 5th dan one should have seen and be able to effectivly demonstrait the scrolls from all 9 ryu.



I take it you are nowhere near fifth dan. How long have you been training?

Here are the facts, I have only a few things in my notes from the Gikan ryu, Gyokushin ryu and Kumogakure ryu, and I think that is more than 99 percent of the fifth dans out there. The vast, vast majority of people can not identify anything outside of the 6 schools that are commonly taught. Even Manaka says he only teaches the 6 schools becasue that is all he was taught. And as nice as it would be to say that the typical fifth dan could show knowledge from all 6 schools, most probably cannot even tell the differences in the ways of recieving an attack between the Koto, Gyokko and Shinde Fudo ryu.

Fifth dan is not that big of a deal. Sorry to come down a little strict, but I don't want people to start thinking the wrong thing. And the idea that the typical fifth dan even has seen something from all 9 schools is certainly wrong.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 3, 2004)

Don,

I know what you say is true. Mark and I have conversed over our personal E mails and he is a super nice guy and is a great bennefit to the Bujinkan and not like so many of the crazies we run into every year. I myself have the notes to six of the ryu that are nearly complete, and like him I am still learning. The fact is, as Long as I train in this art I will always be learning. I myself am just a Shodan trying to learn and help others along the way. 

There have been individuals in the past claiming to have Gikan, Kumigakure, or Gyokushin, but eveybody out there that I hang around still claims that Sensei has not taught them yet. Besides that we may never learn them. Sensei has said from the beginning that only a few will get the full range of ninja skills. (At least that is what Hayes put into his book) If It turns out that I get the knowledge, fine, if not, there is enough in six ryu to keep a person occupied for the rest of their lives. I personally feel that I am blessed to have received what I have up to this point in my studies of this art. Thanks for reminding us all about what is truly out there.


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## Tengu6 (Dec 3, 2004)

Don you are correct, my bad. The techniques are vast and you right about the 3 elusive ryu. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to say one would have a pretty good understanding of the 9 ryu at Godan. It had been said my many that just because those ryu are not extensively covered (and as you mentioned some have not seem much if anything from them specificly), it does not mean they havent been taught. Charles Daniel made this comment that just because those ryu have not really been outright taught as techniques exclusive to the given ryu does not mean that they have not been taught at all.......meaning they may closely resemble those of other ryu and therefor Hatsumi sees no need to show them. I think when posed with that question Charles said "how do you know you havent seen them"? Of course this is not from Hatsumi's mouth so one can only speculate.

It may also be worth mentioning that what you see by Godan is very much dependant on what your teacher has seen...and taught. Some people have spent varying amounts of time in Shodan only to pass the Godan test at a Taikai event.

I too do not want to give a false impression, upon further reviewing my post I also would like to say that there is no set curriculum that says "at such and such level this is taught"

I should also state that the Bujinkan is not a collection of techniques that need to be regurgitated to pass rank.........it is about understanding movement an flow, with various portions of techniques melding together as the aplication dictates in the moment.

Thanks for bringing that up Don.

Markk Bush


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 3, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> (At least that is what Hayes put into his book)


Riiiiiiight.

As far as I know, there are several shihan who have been taught Gikan ryu.


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## Jay Bell (Dec 3, 2004)

Chris,

When you say that your notes are almost complete...are you saying that about the full ryu, or what has been shared in Bujinkan training?

Example...the Takagi Yoshin ryu has kihon and basic fundemental aspects that I have never seen shared within Bujinkan.  Koto ryu, the levels of training we are given is a small part of the entirety of the ryu.

This is one of the reasons that I lost a lot of faith in note taking (beyond feeling).  A lot of technique grabbers and documenters have a hard time (myself included) understanding the bigger picture.  Others like the novelty of having everything on paper...as though the value is the paper and not what's learned.

In the years that I was part of the Bujinkan, I saw a "step sequence" that was similar to how Kumogakure ryu would move....and a few random ideas concerning Gikan ryu from a close friend who had worked on it in Japan.  And I had to travel far distances to just have those shared.  Go figure.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 3, 2004)

I am saying what has been shared. I have seen several different lists from different places of what is supposed to be out there and compared my notes to to those and comparitively speaking to those lists they are almost complete.I am not nor ever will try to mislead anyone about what I am or have. 

And Nim, are you talking about Japanese Shihan Or the american Shihan. Now before someone goes off on me for saying american Shihan, Please know I have had some teachers that say it is a title reserved for the japanese and the americans have adopted it. I dont Know what is correct here. So bear with me.


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## Satt (Dec 3, 2004)

Ok, thanks for the good answers guys. I am also curious where the stars go. Do they go on the belt, or the collar, or where...??? Thanks again.


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## Kreth (Dec 3, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> I am also curious where the stars go. Do they go on the belt, or the collar, or where...??? Thanks again.


They go just above your patch.

Jeff


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## Satt (Dec 3, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> They go just above your patch.
> 
> Jeff


Ok bare with me... Is the patch on your chest or your shoulder or where??? Thanks.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 3, 2004)

Let me also add to my above posts. These notes were neatly typed up and printed and have come to me from many places. Ed sent me five ryu, I already had Kukishin Ryu. No I have not worked on all the kata but have worked on at least the shoden (I know there are different  names for the Gyokko levels) level of them. I have been exposed to many of the kata from a teacher to help me to undrstand the feeling of the ryu. Not just the shoden levels of these things either. I still have much to learn and explore, so dont bash me too badly.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 3, 2004)

Left Chest


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 3, 2004)

I was talking about European shihan, even though I find it unlikely that the Japanese haven't been taught anything at all.

Those interested in exploring Takagi Yoshin ryu indepth might want to check out Arnaud's manual from www.budomart.com that among other things lists every technique with a brief explanation to each. No, no pictures.


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## Satt (Dec 3, 2004)

Thanks


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 3, 2004)

I have arnauds Notes, I also have a copy of Charles daniels original notes and another copy from Ed. They are not always the same but close. Henka at its best!!!


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## Jay Bell (Dec 3, 2004)

> Those interested in exploring Takagi Yoshin ryu indepth might want to check out Arnaud's manual from www.budomart.com that among other things lists every technique with a brief explanation to each. No, no pictures.



No it doesn't.  There are more techniques.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 3, 2004)

I think this example right here is why sensei say to train with as many as possible. No-one seems to have exactly the same notes. I have seen that from the copies I have. Some have more or less notes than others. I feel that there is more out there but in reality, i will never have it all. Neither do i need it all. 

I am only looking to train and do as well as I can for me. If i have something that i have learned that is a benefit to someone else, i will not hold it back from them. This is just me. I have been exposed to too many people that want to treat this art like they have been given the golden apple and then do not want to show it to others. This is not what sensei wants. At the 2002 taikai which was the lowest priced taikai here in the U.S. from what I understand, he looked out and saw a sea of green. He loved that there were so many green belts at that taikai. I think Sensei wants people to learn and understand his art, not to aquire knowledge and then treat it as "my precious". I have found it is impossible to give away all you learn and figure out. More will and has always come.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 3, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> No it doesn't. There are more techniques.


If that rumor's true, then would it praytell have anything to do with ne waza?


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## Kreth (Dec 3, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> I think Sensei wants people to learn and understand his art, not to aquire knowledge and then treat it as "my precious".


Well, it's tough to establish your own ninja empire if you give away all your info, and this is the goal for some 

Jeff


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## Jay Bell (Dec 3, 2004)

> If that rumor's true, then would it praytell have anything to do with ne waza?



If by 'ne-waza', you mean rolling around like BJJ does, no.  There are fundemental techniques that are not taught (openly?) in the Bujinkan.


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## Satt (Dec 3, 2004)

Well, I went out and bought my green belt just for preparation. I think it is really cool that you just wear the green in the Bujinkan until you get your black. I am getting really excited to actually study with a real instructer!!! This will force me to just think about what I am learning instead of my belt color. Oh yeah, by the way Chris, I am sorry I got you hooked on MT. I have been so addicted and I am sure you are getting there too. He he.


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## Jay Bell (Dec 4, 2004)

Jason,

Have you talked to the instructor?  Most have students where white until they receive their green belt.


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## Satt (Dec 4, 2004)

Oh I know, I just bought it just to have it you know. I am sorry I made it sound so bad. I have my white belt from To-Shin Do to. I even had bought a blue belt for incase I made that to. My main comment though was I think it is cool that the Bujinkan just has one belt. It keeps things simple you know. This is my last comment.


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## Jay Bell (Dec 4, 2004)

Nono, you didn't make it sound bad at all.  I just didn't want you to show up day 1 and be told that you had the wrong belt on


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 4, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> If by 'ne-waza', you mean rolling around like BJJ does, no. There are fundemental techniques that are not taught (openly?) in the Bujinkan.


I should know, I've practiced them. What I wondered what whether or not it's true that these come from Takagi Yoshin ryu and Shinden Fudo ryu.


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## Jay Bell (Dec 4, 2004)

I think we're crossing wires here.  For clarity -- there are waza from Takagi Yoshin ryu as well as Shinden Fudo ryu that are done from a seated position.  That is not the information I was referring to as not being done within Bujinkan training.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 4, 2004)

I was at a seminar once were Papasan (Ed Martin)  did some kata from Takagi Yoshin Ryu from Seiza, sitting in a chair, and from standing. It was pretty wild stuff. The chair you are in makes a pretty good weapon.


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## Don Roley (Dec 4, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Let me also add to my above posts. These notes were neatly typed up and printed and have come to me from many places. Ed sent me five ryu, I already had Kukishin Ryu. No I have not worked on all the kata but have worked on at least the shoden (I know there are different  names for the Gyokko levels) level of them. I have been exposed to many of the kata from a teacher to help me to undrstand the feeling of the ryu. Not just the shoden levels of these things either. I still have much to learn and explore, so dont bash me too badly.



Let the bashing begin!  :whip: 

In all seriousness, you have hit a sore spot with me and I have to stand up and say that if you are trying to learn from notes, you are just plain wrong. You can't learn the kata from notes. I do not mean it is difficult, I do not mean you have to work harder I am saying that it is impossible to learn the kata from notes. The same goes for video tapes.

Oh sure, I know people who use them as references for what they have learned. And I know at least one guy here in Japan that goes through the motions from notes he got like you before he shows up to his teacher's class. But after he shows what he practiced, the teacher shows him the real stuff and the important points that can't be conveyed by notes.

I dare say, the kata cannot be conveyed by seminars or brief visits to Japan. They need to be learned, practiced and then at a later date reevaluated by the teacher for errors that have crept in and more stuff of deeper understanding shown.

The problem in the Bujinkan is that there are so few people that learn this way. I once had a video on bojutsu from a non-Japanese. I was learning bojutsu from one of the Japanese shihan at the time. Almost everything the teacher pointed out to me as a mistake and bad habit, the guy was doing. I have had conversations with guys here in Japan and we wonder how people can show up for only a few weeks to Japan at a time and teach all the kata from a school later on. In a month of training here you are probably only going to see a handfull of kata. Yet there are several people giving seminars on all the kata of a particular school. That is just plain wrong. I do not think people should be practicing the kata they get off of notes and I think it is unethical for teachers to teach the same. I have not had the complete kata of any one school taught to me by a qualified teacher. But if I ever become a teacher I will only show those kata from those schools I have learned and had corrected at a later class.

I'll get off the soapbox now. :soapbox:


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 4, 2004)

Don, 

I do respect your oppinion, however, I am pretty isolated as far as good teachers are concerned. I drive long distances,go and sleep in tents, floors, cots and were ever i can find a cheap place to lay my head, all to bring back things for my students and do the best i can to learn this art. I know I have alot of teachers above me that are pleased with what I am doing. I dont make excuses, I train hard, and never ask for anything other than an opportunity to learn. 

The thing I have a problem with is those people that live or visit there, attain knowledge and then keep it like it was their most precious possestion and never communicate it to the rest of us. I really dont care for the pompass megadans that treat others as if they were their domain and if you want to learn you must learn it from me. Or this, I am the only one teaching that has it right. 

My question to you is this, what would you have me do, quit? No sir, it has not been easy on me to learn what i have, and it has been dang hard doing this, raising two boys and holding down a job for the past 16 years to provide for my family. So pardon me if I have people above me who care and want the best for those of us who train here. They give me their best and i them.


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## Don Roley (Dec 4, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> My question to you is this, what would you have me do, quit?



No, stay within what you have been taught since that is probably enough and more than 99 percent of the people in martial arts will ever see. The basics, done right, are much better than trying to learn from kata notes.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 4, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> No, stay within what you have been taught since that is probably enough and more than 99 percent of the people in martial arts will ever see. The basics, done right, are much better than trying to learn from kata notes.


This is what I do, I go by these rules, everything begins and ends with kihon, Ultimately everything is henka. I always try to stay within the framework of the principles taught. I use the kata to find new ways to learn the kihon and sanshin, and in turn I get insights to the kata. I have never said i know anything or everything, In fact the more I learn, the less I know.

I have had the notion lately that all the Ryu are made up of the Kihon and sanshin. But this is requiring more and more research and training. 

And Just for the record in my above post, i was not mad or upset, but I will state my oppinion, and give others the right to state theirs. Have a good day sir


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## Tengu6 (Dec 5, 2004)

With all due respect to Don, who are you to say what can and cant be done? Video tapes, notes, whatever medium......if you start with what you know and see if what is in the notes fits with those pricipals..or if you know "what" to look for on a video, you can learn.............I would say that it is not possible unless you have experience with a qualified instructor first so you know what to look for.......and I dont think you can outright substitute traiing with a teacher for video's and notes............but it can, and is being done with success.......this is confirmed whenever someone in this situation visits Sensei in Japan and discovers they are doing it right.

I think we would agree that these techniques are tried and true from centuries on the battlefield..these techniques originated as thought and then troubleshooted and finly field tested.......this was before it could be taught by an instructor.

Notes and vidoes are not the best way..........but they are good supliments. Chris studys any way he can.....and when he shows his findings to instructors up to 15th Dan, his findings are confirmed.

Yo may have a strong opinion on this, and most likely many people agree with you, but that does not make it truth.

With respect,
Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (Dec 5, 2004)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> With all due respect to Don, who are you to say what can and cant be done?



I am saying what I do based on my knowledge and experience with the katas and the teaching methods I have experienced both in America  and here in Japan.

And if I don't have a right to say something one way, who has the right to say anything another way?


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## Tengu6 (Dec 5, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I am saying what I do based on my knowledge and experience with the katas and the teaching methods I have experienced both in America and here in Japan.
> 
> And if I don't have a right to say something one way, who has the right to say anything another way?


Not saying you dont have the right to say your opinoin, just what qualifies you to say it as absolute fact as opposed to saying "in my opinoin..." or "I find that....." You stated that your opinion is based on what YOU do here and in Japan.......does not mean that someone else may find differently.

Your opinion is always welcome as far as I am concerned........by listening to your opinions I may find that mine are wrong.

With Respect,
Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (Dec 5, 2004)

Well Markk, I state things as fact because from where I sit, they are facts. They also reflect the statements of what I hear from Japanese experts on the matter who do not state things as their opinion, but as facts just as I did.

I have experienced what you feel to be a valid way of learning the kata, and I have also trained under qualified instructors who knew the kata on a weekly basis as I described. To me, there is no comparison. You cannot learn the kata from seminars, videos and especially notes. I have experienced that, and I have experienced being the uke for a teacher holding menkyo kaiden in the art showing the kata, and then coming back after a while and learning it again for correction.

You can learn a lot from training in the kata at a seminar, especially if you learn it like Hatsumi teaches it with a lot of time taken to explore various aspects of it. But you do not learn the kata _qua_ kata. There are certain things you can teach with a small group over an extended period of time that you cannot with a large group for a weekend. You have to accept your limitations and adapt to the medium as best you can. But if you want the full impact of the kata as they were meant to be transmitted, you have to learn them by that method- and they were not transmitted by notes.


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## Tengu6 (Dec 5, 2004)

I wonder why Hatsumi has stated that he has continued to learn from Takamatsu for 0ver 30 years since his passing. He has stated that he reads and rereads his notes and personal letters and finds that they continue to teach him to this day, in fact not only do they teach him, but they mean different things as he progresses.......all from the same writtings. Perhaps Hatsumi sensei is unaware of your facts.

Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (Dec 5, 2004)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> I wonder why Hatsumi has stated that he has continued to learn from Takamatsu for 0ver 30 years since his passing. He has stated that he reads and rereads his notes and personal letters and finds that they continue to teach him to this day, in fact not only do they teach him, but they mean different things as he progresses.......all from the same writtings. Perhaps Hatsumi sensei is unaware of your facts.
> 
> Markk Bush



Because Hatsumi went through personal training on a one-on- one basis for 15 years _before_ he went through his notes and letters.

What we are discussing is the complete opposite.


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## Tengu6 (Dec 5, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Because Hatsumi went through personal training on a one-on- one basis for 15 years _before_ he went through his notes and letters.


I have been training for 11, in 4 more I will be able to use my notes?



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> What we are discussing is the complete opposite.


No it isn't, I said that I believe it could be done if one had the proper instruction and knew what to look for and how to work through it. I also stated it was the the best or preferred way..........but a possibility none the less.

Markk Bush


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## Jay Bell (Dec 6, 2004)

The bit that bothers me here is the fact that the "group" is going off of ego-ist instinct.  While those who know (Don in Japan) and trying to be up front and dispell such nonsense.

The amount of teachers that teach off of notes...with no background as to said notes, save for two weeks a year, and leave their students stunted.  If that's where you'd like to roam, then so be it.  But you are *NOT* playing the game as you'd like to imagine it.

Get real with your training.  Videos and notes won't do you anything.  That's fact...no matter how much of a prodigy you imagine yourself to be.


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## Tengu6 (Dec 6, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> The bit that bothers me here is the fact that the "group" is going off of ego-ist instinct. While those who know (Don in Japan) and trying to be up front and dispell such nonsense.
> 
> The amount of teachers that teach off of notes...with no background as to said notes, save for two weeks a year, and leave their students stunted. If that's where you'd like to roam, then so be it. But you are *NOT* playing the game as you'd like to imagine it.
> 
> Get real with your training. Videos and notes won't do you anything. That's fact...no matter how much of a prodigy you imagine yourself to be.


 
Arent you projecting quite a bit into this? Ego-ist instinct? Those who know? Know what? I hav enever heard of Don before I saw this board. Ed Martin, Jack Hoban, Bud Malmstrom, Shiraishi.I know them and have trained with them.......While I respect Don and imagine he has great skills....I have found his beliefs to differ with Shihan that I trust and know.

No disrespect meant Don, none at all. I do agree with Jay that this is getting pointless and I will not continue with this post.

Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (Dec 6, 2004)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> I have been training for 11, in 4 more I will be able to use my notes?



Just speaking as a person, and not a moderator, can we put aside the nasty sarcastic remarks like this and deal with the facts? Basic fact, notes are what you write AFTER you get the physical training.



			
				Tengu6 said:
			
		

> No it isn't, I said that I believe it could be done if one had the proper instruction and knew what to look for and how to work through it. I also stated it was the the best or preferred way..........but a possibility none the less.
> 
> Markk Bush



Define "proper instruction" please. Do you mean someone who has learned the kata as I describe and you merely use the notes to get some familiarization before class? If so, we are on the same page. But if you talking about someone who is just a high ranked instructor with no specific training in the kata, not only no but hell no.

And the big problem I have with your statement is this,



> knew what to look for and how to work through it



One of the defining aspects of a student is that they do not know what to look for or the proper way to work through it. You might as well be trying to pick up a surgical textbook without any medical training. You need teachers to show you what is in the kata and what is supposed to be taught in the kata so that you do not overlook or misinterpet important aspects. If you knew what to look for, you would not need to train in the kata. People getting together trying to figure out what is important in the kata is a recipe for going off in some pretty weird directions with your training.


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## Tengu6 (Dec 6, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Just speaking as a person, and not a moderator, can we put aside the nasty sarcastic remarks like this and deal with the facts? Basic fact, notes are what you write AFTER you get the physical training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I know I said I wasnt going to post on this but I couldnt resist here. Martial arts is a science.......science is taught by instructors......BUT, someone had to experiment and work through the known facts at hand (instruction from qualified Shihan) in order to make progress in uncharted areas. Yes I know these ares have been "charted" but in terms of working on your own (not entirely on your own but with limited access to Shihan).

And yes, we both agree that notes are something you use after you have had instruction. However we may dissagree that, IMO, after some years of instruction (different for everyone) you may be able to work through notes written by others using what you "Know" as a starting point and continually revisiting that point.

One important fact to remember is that god did not put this stuff on the earth with an instructor........it was developed the same exact way I mentioned above. Some died in the process, some did not.

I never said this was as good a way to learn as having direct instruction, and I have stated numerous times that it is in no way an adequate substitute....just that is is simply possible that is all.

I dont want anyone to think that you can just get a few DVD's and earn your Shodan, that is not what i am saying.

Hatsumi also says he cannot teach this, you have to steal it from him.

Anyway, thanks for your insight,
Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (Dec 6, 2004)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> Martial arts is a science.......science is taught by instructors......BUT, someone had to experiment and work through the known facts at hand (instruction from qualified Shihan) in order to make progress in uncharted areas. Yes I know these ares have been "charted" but in terms of working on your own (not entirely on your own but with limited access to Shihan).



But you are trying to go by someone else's chart without any point of common reference. Where the heck are you going to end up like that.



			
				Tengu6 said:
			
		

> And yes, we both agree that notes are something you use after you have had instruction. However we may dissagree that, IMO, after some years of instruction (different for everyone) you may be able to work through notes written by others using what you "Know" as a starting point and continually revisiting that point.



And if you are wrong, dead wrong, you will not know thatyou are spinning off in weird directions. And it seems a bit egotistical to announce that you are so damn good you are qualified to do this when better people like the Japanese shihan will not train off of other people's notes. All you really seem to be doing by working on what you "know" is deeping you preconceptions and biases. The wonderfull thing about instruction is that it is supposed to be opening us up to new areas and ways. But if you only work on what you "know" then there seems to be little use for it as compared to staying with things you have been taught in person. 



			
				Tengu6 said:
			
		

> One important fact to remember is that god did not put this stuff on the earth with an instructor........it was developed the same exact way I mentioned above. Some died in the process, some did not.



And if you are wrong, your students will die. People developed the kata after their bitter experience to pass along in a certain way. How the heck are you going to gain that same experience? Playing with it in a dojo? If you have killed a person in unarmed combat, maybe you are in a position to talk about developing the kata as you describe. As for me, it all seems egotistical to compare oneself with the guys who paid for this stuff in blood.



			
				Tengu6 said:
			
		

> I never said this was as good a way to learn as having direct instruction, and I have stated numerous times that it is in no way an adequate substitute....just that is is simply possible that is all.



And if Hatsumi felt it was possible, he would probably tell us so. He might even come out with official notes for us to follow. And he would not be making all the comments he does about how even videos can't capture the whole essence of what he is doing.


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## Tengu6 (Dec 6, 2004)

We seem to be mis communicating. I agree with what you are saying, I must not be communicating my point well. I certainly dont think I am so good that I can do what the Shihan in Japan cant or would never attempt.


I imagine we could go back and forth all day to no avail and I see no point in that. I have no need to change your mind.

Markk Bush


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 6, 2004)

I was Talking to one of my Instructors last night and he made two points.

1 as mark has stated that Hatsumi Sensei trained with takamatsu for 15 years. There is only so much you can cram into 15 years of study. No matter what anyone says. The body must always catchup with knowlwdge. If one could not learn from the scrolls, why is the kata, techniques, etc. even bothered to be written down? 

2 If there was never any way of learning other than with a qualified instructor, then why would Hatsumi Sensei even bother to make video's of the Ryu, Taikai's, daikomyosai's, and not to mention the several books he has put out on the subject. If people have been to japan and were bringing the knowledge back as I believe they are supposed to, there would probably have been no need to do any of that. But the fact is people are selfish and want to hoard Knowlwdge to make themselves look big or more worthy than anybody else. Don, I dont know you, but how many times have you came over here and announced you are going to have a seminar to help us over here? And if you did bother, why dont you do this and teach one kata for the whole three days or a week. Some of us have lives, families, jobs etc, which makes it impossible to go there and live. There are more important things in life to me than martial arts.

I have seen so many people in this art that devote themselves entirely to this art that when they look up later on then discover that thay have allowed the best parts of life to pass them by. Most of the time, they are left in a ruined state of mind. Or, when I look at someone that has done that, all I see is that they have martial experience that they may or may not be able to use. There are a whole bunch of us over here that are committed to sharing knowledge and what we have learned, those who chose not to share are quickly becoming the dinosaurs as we call them, and no more use to us than a pile of bones in a museum. Yep, the dinosaurs lived and were a terrible formidable animal, but where is it now?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 6, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> 1 as mark has stated that Hatsumi Sensei trained with takamatsu for 15 years. There is only so much you can cram into 15 years of study. No matter what anyone says. The body must always catchup with knowlwdge. If one could not learn from the scrolls, why is the kata, techniques, etc. even bothered to be written down?


First off, the scrolls are utterly and completely useless for anyone who hasn't received training in the techniques written down therein. They are written in that manner on purpose.

Secondly, Hatsumi sensei trained with Takamatsu sensei for 15 years starting 1957. By then he was already a high ranking budo practicioner with both menkyo kaiden in a number of koryu as well as dan ranks in several gendai budo. This means he probably had pretty good control of his body from the beginning. 

Thirdly, he trained pretty much every week for two or three days full time each week. That in between 40 and 50 weeks a year should equal about 100 full days of training a year. The training dosage of most Bujinkan people nowadays can hardly be compared to that. 



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> 2 If there was never any way of learning other than with a qualified instructor, then why would Hatsumi Sensei even bother to make video's of the Ryu, Taikai's, daikomyosai's, and not to mention the several books he has put out on the subject.


Because those are meant to be studied AFTER one has received proper training.



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> If people have been to japan and were bringing the knowledge back as I believe they are supposed to, there would probably have been no need to do any of that.


Have you been to Japan yourself? And if so, have you tried to write down the specifics of each class? Couldn't have left much time for training...



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> But the fact is people are selfish and want to hoard Knowlwdge to make themselves look big or more worthy than anybody else.


That, like excessive note taking, is reserved for what we call "kata collectors".



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Don, I dont know you, but how many times have you came over here and announced you are going to have a seminar to help us over here? And if you did bother, why dont you do this and teach one kata for the whole three days or a week. Some of us have lives, families, jobs etc, which makes it impossible to go there and live. There are more important things in life to me than martial arts.


There are other people who are most likely willing and capable to do that.



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> I have seen so many people in this art that devote themselves entirely to this art that when they look up later on then discover that thay have allowed the best parts of life to pass them by.


I don't quite think I'm following you here. 



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Most of the time, they are left in a ruined state of mind. Or, when I look at someone that has done that, all I see is that they have martial experience that they may or may not be able to use.


Surely you're not suggesting that a regurgitated or "made easy" version of budo taijutsu would make it more str33t applicable? Sure, there are people who only do what they've been told without practicing with insight, but more often than not that is what happens when people focus too much on memorizing kata.



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> There are a whole bunch of us over here that are committed to sharing knowledge and what we have learned, those who chose not to share are quickly becoming the dinosaurs as we call them, and no more use to us than a pile of bones in a museum. Yep, the dinosaurs lived and were a terrible formidable animal, but where is it now?


Nobody has "chosen" to withhold any kind of information in the Bujinkan, except with the case of Hatsumi sensei and ninjutsu, but that wouldn't have been the case of people's taijutsu was good enough. IMHO there are far too many people in the Bujinkan and in the rest of the martial arts community who are too eager to teach instead of keeping on learning. If you want to get real good, it's going to take time like a *****. It's been that way for over 1000 years now and I seriously doubt it's going to change.


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## Don Roley (Dec 6, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> I was Talking to one of my Instructors last night and he made two points.
> 
> 1 as mark has stated that Hatsumi Sensei trained with takamatsu for 15 years. There is only so much you can cram into 15 years of study. No matter what anyone says. The body must always catchup with knowlwdge. If one could not learn from the scrolls, why is the kata, techniques, etc. even bothered to be written down?



Reference and memory retention, not instruction. Have you not heard how Hatsumi has said that certain things were written down in wrong or criptic ways to not allow those not versed in the physical aspects to understand what is going on?



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> 2 If there was never any way of learning other than with a qualified instructor, then why would Hatsumi Sensei even bother to make video's of the Ryu, Taikai's, daikomyosai's, and not to mention the several books he has put out on the subject.



Reference and memory retention. If a qualified teacher was not needed, why would there have been so many teachers?



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> If people have been to japan and were bringing the knowledge back as I believe they are supposed to, there would probably have been no need to do any of that. But the fact is people are selfish and want to hoard Knowlwdge to make themselves look big or more worthy than anybody else. Don, I dont know you, but how many times have you came over here and announced you are going to have a seminar to help us over here?



Let me see if I get this straight, I am somehow responsible for your not knowing kata? Maybe someday I will move back to the states and start teaching. But I have a few years to get a lot, lot better first. I tend to think that if you are going to teach people something they will be relying on to save their life, you have the responsibility to make sure you know the subject matter as damn well as you can.



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> And if you did bother, why dont you do this and teach one kata for the whole three days or a week.



I do not know if even that will work. And I would rather teach the ten chi jin since there seems to be so many people that do not know it correctly or completely.



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Some of us have lives, families, jobs etc, which makes it impossible to go there and live. There are more important things in life to me than martial arts.



Same here. But we deal with the hand we are given and accept our limitations. If we do not know something, we should not teach it. If we can't get to the training, we work on what we do know. Complaining that we are too busy to learn something correctly and saying that it somehow gives us the right to do as we please just plains baffles me. You say there are things more important than martial arts and I agree with you, but why are you using that as an excuse to do what you like in martial arts? 

If you dropped out due to family comitments, then I would understand. But if you say you can only teach your students only stuff you got from notes because you are too busy I have to ask why you are teaching at all. I see people who teach as having a very great burden. I cannot imagine taking the trust people have in you and your knowledge lightly. They are relying on your knowledge to perhaps save their life. If you have not bothered to learn something completely, fully and the way it was supposed to be taught, then I think you should just decline to teach it and save that task for other instructors.


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