# Are the days of specialists numbered?



## TMA17 (Oct 3, 2018)

With MMA growing so rapidly, it appears that specializing in one art is declining.  Self Defense systems are growing too - Krav Maga, JKD among others. 

Are the days of becoming a black belt in any one art becoming less common?  BJJ is one that many seem to continue to stay with although I read only 1% get their BB.

Jack of all trades vs master of none.

It’s a trade-off depending on your goals.  One could easily spend 5-10 years of his or her life dedicated to one art.


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## now disabled (Oct 3, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> With MMA growing so rapidly, it appears that specializing in one art is declining.  Self Defense systems are growing too - Krav Maga, JKD among others.
> 
> Are the days of becoming a black belt in any one art becoming less common?  BJJ is one that many seem to continue to stay with although I read only 1% get their BB.
> 
> ...




That an interesting post 

Could it be that MMA is the current thing? as in the latest fashion? (not knocking any MMA btw ) just like when Karate first "exploded on to the scene ? 

One art only, That imo is down to the individual themselves and what they wish to get from MA. 

Will single art systems stand the test ? Imo yes they will. Will the TMA schools continue I hope they do, they have ridden many storms and changes and I imo will continue


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## marques (Oct 3, 2018)

“It’s a trade-off depending on your goals.“

It is the answer. 

You may want some activity after daytime job and a specialised martial art that delivers BB at some point may fit the bill.

If you choose MMA or a self defence system, it may still be a smart option to somehow specialise on something, for time economy and due to biological limitations. You may excel at sprinting or running marathons. But I haven’t seen anyone excelling at both.


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## skribs (Oct 3, 2018)

One thing is that most TMAs start off focused, and then expand into something more well rounded at the higher levels.  

Taekwondo starts off with strikes, but adds in grappling techniques later on.  Hapkido starts with grabs and adds in strikes later on.  It's only the sport arts (Olympic TKD, wrestling, boxing) that stay limited in scope as you get more advanced, because the rules of those sports prevent anything else.


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## pdg (Oct 3, 2018)

I may be well off the mark basing the following on a sample of 3 clubs...

MMA seems to be moving toward what could almost be described as a TMA of sorts.

With dedicated gyms (at least nearish me) that explicitly state they only do MMA it looks like they're treating it (and teaching it) as an art all of it's own.

It may still take the techniques it likes from a multitude of other systems - but what current system can honestly say it's completely original and has never been influenced by other arts?


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## pdg (Oct 3, 2018)

Oh, and there appears to be a belt system in MMA (in at least some quarters) too...


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## PiedmontChun (Oct 3, 2018)

Some if it is branding or marketing. To say "we teach MMA" in 2018 conveys a certain description - a nice neat package of techniques and fighting style to potential students, familiar to them based on watching UFC style matches where essentially everyone is using a similar mix of Muay Thai, Boxing, and nogi BJJ for the most part, and any other bits are almost trivial.

Years ago, you would have had to articulate an explanation of which particular arts were incorporated, in what way, and why, in order to really explain a hybrid art. Since its familiar, it just needs less introduction now.


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Are the days of becoming a black belt in any one art becoming less common?  BJJ is one that many seem to continue to stay with although I read only 1% get their BB.



Most likely it's due to taking, on average, 7-10 years to earn a BB in BJJ, vs. 2-3 years in most other MA's.


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## pdg (Oct 3, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Most likely it's due to taking, on average, 7-10 years to earn a BB in BJJ, vs. 2-3 years in most other MA's.



Which reinforces the whole thing that a black belt in one art cannot be compared with a bb in another art.

If I continue to test (and pass) at the minimum time in each grade, it'll be 4 years to earn BB for me. The "average" that has been quoted by "my" club and org is more like 5-6 years.

That could be 3rd Dan in other arts...


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## Flying Crane (Oct 3, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> ...it appears that specializing in one art is declining.



I disagree.



> Are the days of becoming a black belt in any one art becoming less common?



No.



> One could easily spend 5-10 years of his or her life dedicated to one art.



Or even 70 years.


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## Headhunter (Oct 3, 2018)

No. Mma has its place as does every style.mma has been around for decades and all the traditional styles are still going


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## now disabled (Oct 3, 2018)

pdg said:


> Which reinforces the whole thing that a black belt in one art cannot be compared with a bb in another art.
> 
> If I continue to test (and pass) at the minimum time in each grade, it'll be 4 years to earn BB for me. The "average" that has been quoted by "my" club and org is more like 5-6 years.
> 
> That could be 3rd Dan in other arts...




getting to 3rd dan in 6 years ... you might but I doubt it, you'd be pushing it big time


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## pdg (Oct 3, 2018)

now disabled said:


> getting to 3rd dan in 6 years ... you might but I doubt it, you'd be pushing it big time



It's doable in some places, easy in some others, unlikely elsewhere and impossible in yet more.

Because of minimum time in grade (amongst other things) it's not possible in my chosen art.


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## now disabled (Oct 3, 2018)

pdg said:


> It's doable in some places, easy in some others, unlikely elsewhere and impossible in yet more.
> 
> Because of minimum time in grade (amongst other things) it's not possible in my chosen art.




Yes no worries at all,  Sandan in that time frame the experience and background will not be there, that is even before we get to the dedication side (time spent). I do accept that in some places etc yes it may well be so


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2018)

Are the days of specialists in MMA numbered? No. We just had a nice rash of Bjj specialists appear in MMA and they did quite well, and there's more coming since I guess there's more money in MMA than in pro Bjj sports.

The average martial artist will train in whatever they want, but I do believe that some TMAs are definitely heading towards extinction.


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## Buka (Oct 3, 2018)

I believe all Martial Arts styles evolve. Even traditional ones.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2018)

Buka said:


> I believe all Martial Arts styles evolve. Even traditional ones.



Eh, oftentimes in the TMAs any attempt at evolution causes a splintering of the style. Wing Chun and Aikido being major examples.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh, and there appears to be a belt system in MMA (in at least some quarters) too...


I only know of one instructor who has such a system. He actually doesn't use it for his MMA fighters, just for the hobbyists in the gym who are learning the same material (although under a different name).


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> With MMA growing so rapidly, it appears that specializing in one art is declining.  Self Defense systems are growing too - Krav Maga, JKD among others.
> 
> Are the days of becoming a black belt in any one art becoming less common?  BJJ is one that many seem to continue to stay with although I read only 1% get their BB.
> 
> ...


I don't know that this is true for the majority of martial arts students. I train at a MMA gym where there are classes available in multiple disciplines for no extra charge. Even there, I'd guess no more than half the students consistently train in more than one art. Lots of people still train at schools which have one curriculum (TKD or whatever) and never experience anything else.


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## pdg (Oct 4, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I only know of one instructor who has such a system. He actually doesn't use it for his MMA fighters, just for the hobbyists in the gym who are learning the same material (although under a different name).



Have a Google for "MMA belt system" or similar, there are plenty of results.


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## TMA17 (Oct 4, 2018)

What lead me to post this was an article about how MMA schools are popping up in Asia a lot, even China. Then there are self defense systems like Krav Maga or JKD which blend in many arts.  The issue with this approach, it appears, is you never get good enough at one thing.  

For example, here is Philly Self Defense's Grappling program:

*"Rough & Tumble Catch Wrestling / Vale Tudo Self Defense"*

As with all of our curriculum emphasis is placed on practical self defense methods. JKD Grappling is an amalgamation of standing grappling and ground-fighting methods found in many different arts. Combat Submission Wrestling (CSW), Catch-as-Catch-Can, Submission Arts Wrestling (SAW), Jiu Jitsu, Catch Wrestling, Judo, Shooto, Sambo, Kali Dumog & Silat make up a significant part of our JKD Grappling.

These arts are seamlessly integrated with striking to create our JKD Grappling curriculum. There is heavy emphasis on grappling fundamentals and the self defense aspects of close quarters fighting. While we thoroughly encourage sport and competition, it is by far not the only means in which the art can be performed and appreciated. At their roots martial arts were intended for self defense, before evolving into competition.

As with all of our instruction we have a stepped progression that emphasizes Self Preservation followed by Self Perfection. Our Grappling classes include the full range of fighting possibilities which include techniques from both standing and grounded positions.

• Standing Grappling / Trapping, Clinch work & Takedowns
• Positional & Space Control
• Escapes & Reversals
• Striking
• Submission / Locks / Chokes & Strangles


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> What lead me to post this was an article about how MMA schools are popping up in Asia a lot, even China. Then there are self defense systems like Krav Maga or JKD which blend in many arts.  The issue with this approach, it appears, is you never get good enough at one thing.
> 
> For example, here is Philly Self Defense's Grappling program:
> 
> ...



Wow, that seems like a mess. I checked their website and I couldn't find info on their actual instructors. Is ONE guy teaching all of that?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> With MMA growing so rapidly, it appears that specializing in one art is declining.  Self Defense systems are growing too - Krav Maga, JKD among others.
> 
> Are the days of becoming a black belt in any one art becoming less common?  BJJ is one that many seem to continue to stay with although I read only 1% get their BB.
> 
> ...


The 1% to BB is a common statistic (probably a bit high, even) among arts that use rank and take a while to get to that one. It's just indicative of the time it takes and the fact that people's priorities change over the years.

I think it's becoming less popular to be a specialist in a single portion of combat (other than BJJ - some great marketing has held them out of that). More arts are gaining or recovering areas they didn't pay attention to in the past - "striking" arts are getting more grappling work in their training, etc. But I don't think we're heading to an un-branded future. MMA has become a brand, to the public. They have an expectation of what that brand of training provides, and that's not terribly different from the way expectations grew for "karate" and "kung fu" (not always actually those arts) in the past. I expect more schools will start to advertise the mixture they offer, and there will probably be less focus on belts and ranks, overall, though not necessarily within any school or organization.

My hope is that we start to see more mixed-TMA schools, where qualified instructors in different arts come together to offer a wider range of options together. After all, that's really what MMA is - as a "style" - at its core.


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## TMA17 (Oct 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Wow, that seems like a mess. I checked their website and I couldn't find info on their actual instructors. Is ONE guy teaching all of that?



No their instructors are legit.

Allen Chambers | CSW Association

Philadelphia Self Defense

LINEAGES | Chambers Defensive Arts


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know that this is true for the majority of martial arts students. I train at a MMA gym where there are classes available in multiple disciplines for no extra charge. Even there, I'd guess no more than half the students consistently train in more than one art. Lots of people still train at schools which have one curriculum (TKD or whatever) and never experience anything else.


From that, I'd guess you guys have the usual collection of what you call hobbyists. We (the hobbyists) will tend more toward a single discipline, because we only have so much time to give, and we get more out of a single discipline. At the same time, training someplace like that gym opens up a lot of possibilities for folks like me who sometimes have more time on our hands for weeks or months at a time. I suspect - and hope - that's someplace MMA gyms will have a deep long-term influence on MA. More people will be exposed to more disciplines, even if they really only train significantly in one.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> No their instructors are legit.
> 
> Allen Chambers | CSW Association
> 
> ...



Ah he's one of Paulson's boys. That explains it.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> The issue with this approach, it appears, is you never get good enough at one thing.


Says who?

And, “good enough” for what, exactly?


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> One thing is that most TMAs start off focused, and then expand into something more well rounded at the higher levels.
> 
> Taekwondo starts off with strikes, but adds in grappling techniques later on.  Hapkido starts with grabs and adds in strikes later on.  It's only the sport arts (Olympic TKD, wrestling, boxing) that stay limited in scope as you get more advanced, because the rules of those sports prevent anything else.



Interesting how different styles teach.  In the Hapkido I studied, our first seven techniques were using strikes against wrist grabs; fists, knife edge, palm, hammer, and elbow.  But I think it is healthy to have different styles and the different emphasis each has.


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## Buka (Oct 5, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Eh, oftentimes in the TMAs any attempt at evolution causes a splintering of the style. Wing Chun and Aikido being major examples.



I find the splintering of styles to be a positive thing in the progression of Martial Arts. Not all splintering, obviously, but a good part of it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 5, 2018)

Buka said:


> I find the splintering of styles to be a positive thing in the progression of Martial Arts. Not all splintering, obviously, but a good part of it.



Yeah, I'm talking more about what happens when someone comes up with something new, and some people start saying "X isn't doing real X anymore!" Wing Chun vs Ving Tsun is a prime example of this.

In Bjj when someone comes up with something new, like Bravo's 10th Planet JJ, most of us check out what he's doing and happily call it all Bjj. For example, I loved the Ghost Escape from 10th planet, liked it way better than the standard side control escape, and used it all the time. Instead of kicking me out of the school for using a 10th Planet technique, my instructor asked me to show it to him so he could learn it and teach the rest of the class.


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## wanderingstudent (Oct 5, 2018)

I thought it would be interesting to meet up with my Brothers and Sisters, years from now and see how things have evolved.  Not wanting to wait another 15 - 20 years, I've been reaching out to various Uncles; this is on-going so I don't have much to report.

Lucky for us, we are experiencing things now and don't have to rely on "old stories".  Better yet, folks should document changes.

This actually touches on another pet peeve, about multiple interpretations of one style.


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