# Jujitsu as self defence?



## Im redy 4 u (Sep 30, 2007)

Can jujitsu be used as self defence.  How effective is it in a "real street fight?"  Aikido was developed from Jujitsu, so what are the differences?  The main one is that you use your opponents momentum to take them down in aikido?  Yes?  No?  What is better for a self defence art, Jujitsu or Aikido?  I'm sure they both have advantages and disadvantages, but what is better overall? I'd be interested to hear all your opinions, thanks.


----------



## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 30, 2007)

Jujitsu can definately be used as a reliable form of self defence depending on how it's taught.  There is specific sport jujitsu which is pretty much taught using only a gi and is mostly effective in the ring.  Then there is, some call it combat jujitsu, where you're taught with a gi and without a gi, this is geared more to street self defence.  

Aikido and Jujitsu are very similar and very different.  Both involve joint manipulations and using the attacker's force against them.  Both sacrifice the idea that the biggest and strongest will win to the one who has the more effective technique will win.  Some of the biggest differences are, Jujitsu trains strikes a lot more than Aikido does.  The majority of Aikido defences are taught from knife hand strikes or grabs.  

Both are very effective means of self-defence if you have the right instructor and the right frame of mine.

All of this is in my personal opinion!​


----------



## howard (Oct 1, 2007)

Could you clarify something?

When you refer to "jujitsu", do you mean classical Japanese Jujutsu, or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?

I think you'll be more likely to get the answers you're looking for if you clarify this point.


----------



## Im redy 4 u (Oct 1, 2007)

When I refer to "jujitsu" I mean Japanese Jujitsu.


----------



## howard (Oct 2, 2007)

Traditional Japanese Jujutsu was really only for self defense.  Some styles include weapons and battlefield techniques.  Others are focused on empty-hand techniques for use away from the battlefield.  I believe it's accurate to say that all styles included striking, locking, throwing and pinning techniques.

As far as I know, none of the old (koryu) styles had any sport / competition component.  That evolved later, primarily from Judo (which is the source of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu).

Aikido's technical base derives heavily from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, a sophisticated system that employs aiki techniques to disrupt the opponent's physical and mental balance as an integral component of its techniques.  The founder of Aikido held a teaching license in Daito-ryu and taught that art before he created Aikido.

Both Japanese Jujutsu and Aikido can be effective for self defense.  It all depends on the training approach of the particular school you're considering.

Hope this helps...


----------



## Darth F.Takeda (Oct 9, 2007)

IMO Jujutsu is one of the best SD arts there is. There are many other great arts, but many of those have a Jujutsu influence or are alot like Jujutsu. (Silat)

 It was developed over many generations in a nation that was in a constant state of cival war, those who used it were not monks trying to attain harmony and farmers but Warriors, who killed and maimed with it.

 It teaches throws, takedowns, head and neck manipulations and breaks,chokes and strangleation, joint locks and destructions, strikes, grappling and maiming techniques.
The intent was to either kill, maim or control and shame your adversary.

Allmost every military Hand to hand combat system is based on or partly on Jujutsu techniques.
Krav Maga- Lots of Jujutsu in it.
WW2 Hand to Hand- Judo and Jujutsu based.
MCMAP- The founder, George Bristol, in addition to being a Judoka and Karateka was also a student of my Sensei and trained with my Sempai.
 He intended for MCMAP to be Jujutsu with a few more kicks and ponches thrown in. The MCMAP Black belt is modeled after our Green belt.

Sensei was a cop in Rockland Co NY, you get alot of criminals from NYC there. He says he used Jujutsu to one degree or another every week.  What he learned as a teen worked so well when he became a cop, he went back into active training.

When I was in other arts, they would say "Now we will work on Self Defense techniques." and they would be bad versions of Jujutsu techniques. I was like "What is with all the punching, kicking and blocking we have been doing, I thought we were doing self defense?"

 It occurred to me that I should be doing Jujutsu for real, not second hand.

 Traditional / Combat Jujutsu can be hard to find, but it is worth the search. It took me years but I have stayed with it ever sense.
 I love Kali and Silat, I train in them, but I am still training in Jujutsu and allways will be a Jujutsuka primarily.


----------



## thefunfairvip (Oct 15, 2007)

as a long term exponent of tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu bujitsu, i was advised by my instructor to go out and experience other "arts" with the intention of broadening my own understanding of these systems and to place them in a  hierarchy within my own mind as to their compared effectiveness in actual combat.

in comparing judo vs jujitsu, judo would win hands down. the principle reason for this is that, although judo is a sport and is taught as a sport, its techniques work extremly well. with practice, these techniques could have varying degrees of success on the "street", but this is entirly dependent upon the players skill level. in contrast, the techniques of jujitsu are utterly futile in any context and can be viewed at there worst on programs such as those with octagon ring tournaments. jujitsu exponents always seem to have appauling balance, tend to walk straight into the oncoming attacks and have a general lack of dynamics. watch the olympic judo players and you will see a different class of skill altogether.

i hope this insight is informative.


----------



## Yari (Oct 15, 2007)

Im redy 4 u said:


> Can jujitsu be used as self defence. How effective is it in a "real street fight?" Aikido was developed from Jujitsu, so what are the differences? The main one is that you use your opponents momentum to take them down in aikido? Yes? No? What is better for a self defence art, Jujitsu or Aikido? I'm sure they both have advantages and disadvantages, but what is better overall? I'd be interested to hear all your opinions, thanks.


 
I do both, and would say it really depends on the perosn that teaches in that certain styl, and what the perosn emphesizes.

/Yari


----------



## Aaron Fields (Oct 15, 2007)

I work as a firefighter in a major metro and have a perspective on street violence.

In truth, no style really prepares a person for street violence.  I will say that no matter what you practice, being in shape, aware of your surroundings, and use to physical contact is what will give you an advantage.  In addition, stress managament is critical to "success" in a street setting.

To be honest, I'll take a rugby player on my side over most combative/combative sports advocate any day.

I would suggest that everyone interested in "self-defense" spend some time at a major trauma center.  It is sobbering and will rid you of any illusions.

All that being said, practicing a combative or combative sport will not hurt you in most cases.

The major traits required for successful self protection, is stress management and all around fitness.

Best Regards,
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org


----------



## Yari (Oct 15, 2007)

Aaron Fields said:


> ....
> 
> The major traits required for successful self protection, is stress management and all around fitness.
> ......


 
Could you elaborate on what you mean stess management is?

/Yari


----------



## Aaron Fields (Oct 16, 2007)

Yari

Sure I can explain a bit.  Though I am no psychologist I will do my best to summarize.  I will explain my background a bit, so you understand my angle on this subject.  I am a firefighter in a major metro and teach fire skills, in addition to coaching and participating in my combative sport.  Prior, to the fire service I was an educator, so my focus is on training methodology.  Nevertheless, in dealing with stress&#8230;&#8230; 

As we all know stress comes in many forms.  The type I am referring to is the variety, which occurs in &#8220;fight or flight&#8221; type situations.  This stress is induced in acute situations and requires the application of skills.  


In other words the ability to function in settings that are chaotic and involve high risk.

In lines of work such as firefighting, military, law enforcement, it is not uncommon to have new members &#8220;lock up&#8221; in these types of situations.  If not entirely frozen it is also common to have the skills that the individuals were proficient with in training situations become sub par in actual application.  This is not only evident in practical skills but also in observations and decision-making.

Based off experience, all these types of occupations have incorporated methods of including stress into training, hoping to overcome these tendencies.  

What I am saying is that unless a person has drilled stress management, they are not prepared for actual violence.  Or more to the point they are unprepared to apply their skills at a high level.  Though competitive fighting is a step in the right direction towards gaining the stress managment skill, it still lacks the chaotic nature of actual "self defense" situations.  IE the context and the rules are clear and defined. 

On a side note, I am in the early stages of writing a paper on education and skill aquisition.  Hopefully it will transition between educational arenas, and will explain teachning and training methodology from my different expeience, for both an occupational and sport setting.  I am focusing the paper on skill application.  In addition, it is going to explain some of the Russian style training techniques that I picked up while practicing in the former Eastern Block.


Best Regards,
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Oct 16, 2007)

JJJ is great for self defense, though it takes a little longer to get that sort of proficiency than, say, boxing or kenpo.  The techniques simply require more precision to carry off.

But once you have 'em, they provide excellent defense and one of the best ranges in terms of 'continuum of force', you can hurt, harm, maim or kill depending on your needs.


----------



## Yari (Oct 17, 2007)

Aaron Fields said:


> Yari.......
> In other words the ability to function in settings that are chaotic and involve high risk.
> .......


 

I do agree, but would like to hear your take on this. How do you do it, not at your work, but int he SD style you pratice.

/Yari


----------



## Keikai (Oct 17, 2007)

thefunfairvip said:


> in comparing judo vs jujitsu, judo would win hands down. the principle reason for this is that, although judo is a sport and is taught as a sport, its techniques work extremly well. with practice, these techniques could have varying degrees of success on the "street", but this is entirly dependent upon the players skill level. in contrast, the techniques of jujitsu are utterly futile in any context and can be viewed at there worst on programs such as those with octagon ring tournaments. jujitsu exponents always seem to have appauling balance, tend to walk straight into the oncoming attacks and have a general lack of dynamics. watch the olympic judo players and you will see a different class of skill altogether.
> 
> i hope this insight is informative.


 
I guess you have not seen good ju jutsu. If you are basing your opinion of ju jutsu on octagon ring fighting then I would suggest that is too narrow a view. Ju jutsu is about dealing with dynamic attacks such as strikes, weapons, strangles and chokes in every possible way of being attacked, body holds etc. Learning how to deal with a full scale striking attack requires a lot of training and a greater range of skills than are available to a judoka. The range of locks alone is far greater than the elbow locks that judoka train. Most of the throws and a many more than are done in judo are available to ju jutsuka. 

Judo is fine for a very skilled person but they still are limited to throwing only techniques and locks on the ground that often place them in a vunerable position due to the rules that judo is trainied under.

If you want good self defence then ju jutsu is the way to go.


----------



## WesternCiv (Oct 22, 2007)

> JJJ is great for self defense, though it takes a little longer to get that sort of proficiency than, say, boxing or kenpo. The techniques simply require more precision to carry off.
> 
> But once you have 'em, they provide excellent defense and one of the best ranges in terms of 'continuum of force', you can hurt, harm, maim or kill depending on your needs


 
Totally agree - JJJ is one of the best SD systems, which is why so many military and police programs utilize jujutsu techniques.  

As a newbie to JJJ I hate to admit that I believe I would be less successful in a self defense situation now, after six months of training, than I would have been before I started jujutsu.  I just don't have the techniques down yet.  My only prior training was in Wu Wei Gung Fu ( a JKD varient) and I felt like it was quicker to become self defense proficent, albeit at a lower level.

The advice you will see on this board is true - the best art for you is going to be one that you enjoy and has a good teacher.  

I'm very lucky to have found KJJR JuJutsu in my area.  It has quality instruction and I enjoy the training.


----------



## matt.m (Nov 24, 2007)

Like Tae Kwon Do, Judo is a Martial Art and a sport.  It is all in how you train and are taught.  Traditional Judo is fabulous for self defense, match style Judo.....not so much.


----------



## elliemay (Jan 31, 2008)

I agree with KeiKai.  I am a small woman, 5'3, 108lbs, and have been studying Hakkoryu, Yoshitsune and most recently Small Circle Jujitsu.  Jujitsu is such a vast style really and very effective as self defence.  I feel quite comfortable taking down even some pretty large men.  Of course size does not equal pain threshhold as we all know.


----------



## howard (Feb 1, 2008)

thefunfairvip said:


> in comparing judo vs jujitsu, judo would win hands down... in contrast, the techniques of jujitsu are utterly futile in any context and can be viewed at there worst on programs such as those with octagon ring tournaments. jujitsu exponents always seem to have appauling balance, tend to walk straight into the oncoming attacks and have a general lack of dynamics.


Um, what on earth are you talking about?

How much true Japanese Jujutsu have you seen?

Can you name even one JJJ person who has fought in the "octagon" using primarily JJJ?

Perhaps your complaint is with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?


----------



## kaizasosei (Feb 2, 2008)

actually, there were jujutsu movements very strong in the early days.  i believe the 40s and 50s.  the movement seemed quite legit to me.  scores of techniques and overall good fighting system still employing some principles of ju.  but it seems to me, that instruction from japan came to a stop at some time.  perhaps the arts were getting too violent or dangerous..?? maybe the teachers stopped teaching.??  i really dont know.

however what i know is that the quality of jujutsu started going down majorly. 
it turned into a sort of western jujutsu that ended up more like a type of karate without the form of karate.  lots of cheap as well as destructive moves, eye gouges, kicks to knees etc.. really might be ok for a serious nasty selfdefense situation.  but i wonder just how much of the art part there is left.  not saying that some more skillfull and authentic lineages didnt continue as i think there were some.  however, generaly there was a move to choose more striking in the system.
  i personally like to stay standing up if possible. but i am comfortable on the ground too.  in my opinion the bjj displays more art in their system than such modern jujutsu.   one time i actually invested in a video that was quite the waste of cash i think...basic type move was-block-smash-eyegouge-apply crude armlock+ pretty much all the moves were like that.
true balance between striking and grapling arts seems difficult to achieve in an art.

j


----------



## MarkBarlow (Feb 2, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> actually, there were jujutsu movements very strong in the early days.  i believe the 40s and 50s.  the movement seemed quite legit to me.  scores of techniques and overall good fighting system still employing some principles of ju.  but it seems to me, that instruction from japan came to a stop at some time.  perhaps the arts were getting too violent or dangerous..?? maybe the teachers stopped teaching.??  i really dont know.
> 
> however what i know is that the quality of jujutsu started going down majorly.
> it turned into a sort of western jujutsu that ended up more like a type of karate without the form of karate.  lots of cheap as well as destructive moves, eye gouges, kicks to knees etc.. really might be ok for a serious nasty selfdefense situation.  but i wonder just how much of the art part there is left.  not saying that some more skillfull and authentic lineages didnt continue as i think there were some.  however, generaly there was a move to choose more striking in the system.
> ...



I get the impression you haven't spend much time around tradition-based Jujutsu systems.  While the bastardized styles you mention certainly exist in Jujutsu, they are also in Karate, Kung Fu, etc... True Jujutsu may be hard to find, but it does exist.

The style I study is a branch of a small family bugei system taught by the Takikawa (or Takikgawa, whichever you prefer) family.  While Akayama Ryu Jujutsu focuses on only a small aspect of the bujutsu taught, we have retained the practicality and effectiveness required by the Samurai.  We make no bones about being gendai but I know from personal experience and those of other students that the system works for civilians, LEO and military.

There are several hard-core Jujutsuka who post regularly here who have equal or superior training to mine.  Please don't assume that one or two lackluster videos you've watched are the end-all and be-all of Jujutsu.
True, tradition-based Jujutsu is incredibly effective.  The majority of military and LEO h2h training is based on Jujutsu and that is a ringing endorsement.


----------



## kaizasosei (Feb 2, 2008)

> I get the impression you haven't spend much time around tradition-based Jujutsu systems. While the bastardized styles you mention certainly exist in Jujutsu, they are also in Karate, Kung Fu, etc... True Jujutsu may be hard to find, but it does exist.
> 
> The style I study is a branch of a small family bugei system taught by the Takikawa (or Takikgawa, whichever you prefer) family. While Akayama Ryu Jujutsu focuses on only a small aspect of the bujutsu taught, we have retained the practicality and effectiveness required by the Samurai. We make no bones about being gendai but I know from personal experience and those of other students that the system works for civilians, LEO and military.
> 
> ...




i get the picture.  sounds awesome.  ill take your word for it.  
i knew that good jujutsu existed. i think lots of it got absorbed by many other martial arts.  
your ryuha sounds interesting.  what other things do you teach or specialize in? 

i agree naturaly, jujutsu would be ideal for police work.  

j


----------



## howard (Feb 2, 2008)

MarkBarlow said:


> True Jujutsu may be hard to find, but it does exist.


Yes indeed.

There was a good discussion recently on another forum about why there is so little legitimate Japanese Jujutsu in the US. Compare the situation with JJJ to that of the Korean arts. Dozens of KMA people have immigrated to the US and opened schools. Why don't we see this with JJJ? There are probably cultural factors at work.

Regarding some of the comments about striking, and about the "art" aspect of Jujutsu, I can speak with hands-on knowledge only of one stlyle (Daito-ryu). I can tell you that Daito-ryu makes liberal use of strikes, in fact, atemi is one of the seven methods of applying aiki that the "mainline" (Kondo) organization recognizes. There is also considerable emphasis in the training on _rei_ (etiquette). In fact, some newcomers find the training too formal for their liking in that respect. However, the techniques themselves were originally intended, above all, as ways of injuring and eventually killing an enemy. That's why you see the symbolic _todome_ (finishing, or killing, strike) at the end of so many Daito-ryu techniques.

I wish there were more legitimate JJJ dojos in the States. IMO it's a beautiful and very effective art of self defense.


----------



## MarkBarlow (Feb 2, 2008)

I've been studying Jujutsu for over 30 years.  If you think it doesn't get respect now, you should have been around in the 70's.  Thanks to bad magazine articles and worse video tapes, Jujutsu was seen by most other martial arts as worse than useless.  

To combat this image, my sensei had an open-door policy at his dojo and sought out other styles and instructors to have them visit.  He wanted them to see the effectiveness of Jujutsu and also give us the opportunity to train with and against other styles.

It's discouraging to see someone add a couple of wrist locks or throws to their Karate program and say they are teaching Jujutsu.  It's comparable to me teaching a few kicks and thinking I'm capable of teaching TKD.  

As for atemi, Akayama Ryu incorporates a fair amount but most of it is open-handed and knees and elbows are prevalent.  When you consider that Jujutsu is designed for mid or close range use, many of the strikes and kicks of Karate or TKD are impractical.  There are strikes and kicks that are unique to Jujutsu and attempts to reconstruct it by using elements of karate, Judo and Aikido do not do it justice.


----------



## kaizasosei (Feb 2, 2008)

some judoka can be quite spectacular in their throws and midairtakedowns.  but usually, when you think of japanese kicking arts'  you think of karate.  that's it.  although actualy karate as it is now hasn't existed for all that long.  
i myself greatly value kicking.

ive been studying tons of chin na techniques recently.  there are some similarities between koryu jujutsu and chin na, i find.




j


----------



## howard (Feb 3, 2008)

MarkBarlow said:


> It's discouraging to see someone add a couple of wrist locks or throws to their Karate program and say they are teaching Jujutsu.  It's comparable to me teaching a few kicks and thinking I'm capable of teaching TKD.


We have a parallel situation in Hapkido.

Some TKD teachers go to weekend Hapkido seminars or take a few private lessons with a Hapkido teacher, and the next thing you know they're marketing Hapkido instruction. Teaching a couple of wrist and elbow locks does not equate to Hapkido.

I believe that some of this is attributable to the sport direction that a lot of modern TKD has taken. Because of that, some TKD programs recognize that there may be benefits to adding some Hapkido self defense to what they teach.

If you compare the Aikijujutsu-based art that Choi Yong Sul taught (the original base of Hapkido) to TKD, you find that they are very different arts. Just as Jujutsu and Karate are.


----------



## Yari (Feb 4, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> ..... koryu jujutsu .....
> 
> j


 
Just out of curiosity ... what style koryu jujtutsu are your praticing?

/yari


----------

