# Brotherhood and Camaraderie In The Arts



## MJS (May 29, 2007)

Do you feel that its lacking?  Do you feel that its important?  Is it possible to have both mixed in with a learning environment?

Recently, while surfing the web, I came across a discussion on another forum.  Basically it seemed to me, that the above mentioned things were frowned upon and should be kept seperate.  Now, IMHO, I don't think that attending a seminar and having 99% of it consist of chatting with friends, and acting like its a noon time tea session, but on the other hand, I feel that you can still be social and train hard.  I've been to a number of seminars and camps.  Sure it was good to see old friends as well as make new ones, but once the session began it was all business!  There were no games...everyone was there to learn!

So, what are your thoughts on this?

Mike


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## Drac (May 29, 2007)

MJS said:


> I feel that you can still be social and train hard. I've been to a number of seminars and camps. Sure it was good to see old friends as well as make new ones, but once the session began it was all business! There were no games...everyone was there to learn!
> 
> So, what are your thoughts on this?
> 
> Mike


 
I attended my first Combat Hapkido seminar and didn't know a soul..We trained hard but still found time to form frinedships..Now when I return to the yearly seminar in Denver CO I look forward to seeing my friends and training with them...There SOULD be a brotherhood if you're in the MA, we share something that outsiders could never understand..My 2 cents...


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## Andrew Green (May 29, 2007)

I think there has to be.

We spend night after night hitting each other, messing with each others joints, and in general just beating the poop out of each other.  There has to be trust, and there has to be friendship there otherwise people get hurt.

When you put your personal safety in other peoples hands the way martial arts training requires you to do day after day you are going to develop a strong relationship and sense of trust.

My personal opinion is that you can learn more about a person in 10 minutes hard sparring then you can in an hour of sitting and chatting.


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## Danjo (May 29, 2007)

Me and my brother always beat each other up, so it's a natural mix for me.


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## Shotochem (May 29, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> My personal opinion is that you can learn more about a person in 10 minutes hard sparring then you can in an hour of sitting and chatting.


 
Andrew,

Will Rogers has nothing on you.....

My sentiments exactly.


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## Kacey (May 29, 2007)

I think that there needs to be some sense of camaraderie, because I think it helps improve learning.  Sure, you learn a lot during a good, hard work out - but without the camaraderie, you're beating on each other instead of helping each other learn - not that you can't do both, but there's a big difference, IMHO, between beating the crap out of someone, and that's it, and taking the time and effort (which usually only happens when there's some kind of fellow-feeling) to tell the other person what they're doing wrong and right, so the other person can improve, instead of leaving discouraged because they got beaten up, or lost a pattern competition, or couldn't make a throw work, or whatever, and don't know why.  Competition is a great learning experience - but so is coaching/instructing, both formally and informally - and it's that informal coaching/instructing that comes from the camaraderie*.*


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## John Bishop (Jun 1, 2007)

MJS said:


> Do you feel that its lacking?  Do you feel that its important?  Is it possible to have both mixed in with a learning environment?
> 
> Recently, while surfing the web, I came across a discussion on another forum.  Basically it seemed to me, that the above mentioned things were frowned upon and should be kept seperate.  Now, IMHO, I don't think that attending a seminar and having 99% of it consist of chatting with friends, and acting like its a noon time tea session, but on the other hand, I feel that you can still be social and train hard.  I've been to a number of seminars and camps.  Sure it was good to see old friends as well as make new ones, but once the session began it was all business!  There were no games...everyone was there to learn!
> 
> ...




Well, I know that in our system it's very important.  The Hawaiian spirit of "Ohana" (family) is a  large part of what we practice.  It helps people achieve and learn more if they have the support and friendship of their classmates.  And the spirit of Ohana is practiced no matter who's Kajukenbo school you walk into around the world.     
I could have one of my white belts visit a school while on vacation anywhere in the world, and expect that the instructor and school will welcome him to work out and go out to eat after class.  No mat fees, no sales pitches.  In fact the visitor usually gets a gift from the school, like a tee shirt, or pin, etc.  
When we have seminars, there's always talk and food, but it's after the workouts.  I've never been to a Kajukenbo seminar where there was just a seminar.  Usually there's 3-4 one hour teaching blocks, and then the BBQ's get fired up.  If it's not in a location where we can BBQ, then we all hit the local pizza place.   Typical price: $25-$35 for the seminars, $5.00 for the BBQ.

Nothing like a Hawaiian style BBQ


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## student68 (Jun 1, 2007)

This is one of the best things about our dojo, the sensei always teaches brotherhood among the students but not just the ones trianing with him at his dojo, but all, both we and himself meet , "share and learn" he always says.
The camaraderie is the biggest part of why I train with those guys, They are like Brothers to me and in a way Sensei is like our dad , but I do out rank him in age.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 1, 2007)

I feel that in my area, things have gotten far better.  
When the first generation of teachers hit this area (1950's-80's), the hostility was open and brutal.  When the second generation of instructors started becoming the more prevelant group (80's-2000), there was dissention, back stabbing, and lots of politics, but they stayed somewhat sociable.  Now the 3rd group is becoming the main group of teachers, and we are just getting along fine (for the most part).  We help competing schools at tournaments, seminars, and workout get-togethers.  We even send eachother students in cases such as a student wants a particular style or doesn't want to drive as far.

AoG


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## kidswarrior (Jun 3, 2007)

MJS said:


> Do you feel that its lacking?  Do you feel that its important?  Is it possible to have both mixed in with a learning environment?
> 
> Mike



Good question, Mike. I may have said before that of the two main schools I've been associated with, one had a strong brotherhood, but was weak in the MA's, while the other had awesome MA's, but behaved terribly: lots of lording it over the lesser belts by higher ranks, virtually no safety rules, and laughing wasn't allowed--_ever _(even at oneself). 

Neither extreme represents the MA's to me. I like to work hard, play hard, have fun, go home a little bruised and bloodied and knowing you're a part of a group that cares about each other. To me, that's premier training, and while I've never had such teachers (other than short-term seminars), I seek to be one to my students. That's all I can control.


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## Rabu (Jun 3, 2007)

In the Kuoshu school where I practice, spending time outside of the Kwoon is as important as spending it inside.

Regular Brazillian Barbeque (not regular enough sadly, can never have enough) and nights out to music shows have been the theme.  Getting together at the chosen restaurants for dinner occasionally also happens.

Brotherhood is essential.  I wouldnt want to practice with a bunch of people who dont want to know me.

Rob


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## Hand Sword (Jun 4, 2007)

MJS said:


> Do you feel that its lacking? Do you feel that its important? Is it possible to have both mixed in with a learning environment?
> 
> Recently, while surfing the web, I came across a discussion on another forum. Basically it seemed to me, that the above mentioned things were frowned upon and should be kept seperate. Now, IMHO, I don't think that attending a seminar and having 99% of it consist of chatting with friends, and acting like its a noon time tea session, but on the other hand, I feel that you can still be social and train hard. I've been to a number of seminars and camps. Sure it was good to see old friends as well as make new ones, but once the session began it was all business! There were no games...everyone was there to learn!
> 
> ...


 


Coming up the way I did, and seeing it transform into what it became, From my point of view, I would say that it is lacking. There are exceptions to this, as there is with everything. But, I would say, with regard to the big picture, it is. As for the importance thing, again, I feel it depends. People can get instruction in any kind of manner, fast food style, come and go, etc.. and be satisfied. However, Personally, I would go with a yes
if asked in person, or strongly recommend it. It makes a great atmosphere, and facilitates the learning process. To that end, yes it can be mixed into a learning enviroment. Some of us do it still, or used to experience it.


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## MJS (Jun 8, 2007)

John Bishop said:


> Well, I know that in our system it's very important. The Hawaiian spirit of "Ohana" (family) is a large part of what we practice. It helps people achieve and learn more if they have the support and friendship of their classmates. And the spirit of Ohana is practiced no matter who's Kajukenbo school you walk into around the world.
> I could have one of my white belts visit a school while on vacation anywhere in the world, and expect that the instructor and school will welcome him to work out and go out to eat after class. No mat fees, no sales pitches. In fact the visitor usually gets a gift from the school, like a tee shirt, or pin, etc.
> When we have seminars, there's always talk and food, but it's after the workouts. I've never been to a Kajukenbo seminar where there was just a seminar. Usually there's 3-4 one hour teaching blocks, and then the BBQ's get fired up. If it's not in a location where we can BBQ, then we all hit the local pizza place. Typical price: $25-$35 for the seminars, $5.00 for the BBQ.
> 
> Nothing like a Hawaiian style BBQ


 
Great post John!!  I think its great and I really do admire the "Ohana" that you guys all show at your events.  I'm sure there are politics like any art, but it seems when you guys have gatherings, everyone gets along, no matter what branch of Kaju you're from.  :ultracool

Mike


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## distalero (Jun 13, 2007)

It will exist for a few in any school; it's called personal friendship, but overall it won't exist for the group because it can't, so whether or not someone thinks it's "necessary", it's already a moot issue. It can't because human nature won't allow it to when the usual personalities are present, and they always are, especially where there are varying degrees of talent, and some person or board who judges talent. There will always be those who jockey and politic for "position" at the detriment of others, because they think that support and worth is somehow outside themselves. 

MA practice is no different from any other social structure, except that by it's very purpose it belies the belief that people "get along". Did anyone think the suggestion to take a defensive posture was for form?


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## Danjo (Jun 13, 2007)

distalero said:


> It will exist for a few in any school; it's called personal friendship, but overall it won't exist for the group because it can't, so whether or not someone thinks it's "necessary", it's already a moot issue. It can't because human nature won't allow it to when the usual personalities are present, and they always are, especially where there are varying degrees of talent, and some person or board who judges talent. There will always be those who jockey and politic for "position" at the detriment of others, because they think that support and worth is somehow outside themselves.
> 
> MA practice is no different from any other social structure, except that by it's very purpose it belies the belief that people "get along". Did anyone think the suggestion to take a defensive posture was for form?


 
I think it's a bit different than personal friendship. I think it's more like family, hence the "brotherhood" in the thread title. In a family there are always going to be those you like better than others, but they're still all family. When one of them acts badly, it reflects on you etc. and there is a general sense of connectedness that exists due to the central bond. The bond is the training. You can't have trained in the art and not trained in it at the same time. You might not be very good, your instructor might suck, it might have been a while etc., but you've still got more in common with others that have trained than with those that haven't.


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## distalero (Jun 13, 2007)

I take your point, Danjo. I have what might be a different experience of "brotherhood" from some, so maybe I'm drawing on that. Thing is, though, you yourself allude to family dynamics and how they are less than the deeper definition/experience of brotherhood, and the camaraderie that aries from it. With the deeper type, camaraderie is the expression; it can't help but follow brotherhood because it wants to celebrate. 

If the definition of both was meant to be the (very) general one (more a missused concept that a reality), then I'd agree with your point, sorta , but in my view (and experience) the general type frequently doesn't concern itself with camaraderie, and frequently promotes negative internal stuff ("family dynamics"). Negative internal stuff is nothing new, it's really the air we breath, but 'ol purist Distalero wanted it to be recognized for what it is.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jun 15, 2007)

Drac said:


> I attended my first Combat Hapkido seminar and didn't know a soul..We trained hard but still found time to form frinedships..Now when I return to the yearly seminar in Denver CO I look forward to seeing my friends and training with them...There SOULD be a brotherhood if you're in the MA, we share something that outsiders could never understand..My 2 cents...


I would have to agree with Drac. Friendship is important. It will help us to become better if we have friends that can make judgements about us and to correct us when we are making mistakes. 

B


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## tellner (Jun 15, 2007)

Some people say that students learn best in a friendly, supportive atmosphere. Others say that cutthroat competition brings out the best. We try to do both but don't tell the students which is in force on any particular day 

Seriously, it comes naturally with a good training group although there are things which can encourage or discourage it. Why?


Shared ordeal. You've all been through the same thing. That builds group cohesion.
The secret handshake. More shared experience plus shared purpose, shared values of one sort or another and a group identity based on something outside the individuals.
You could hurt each other badly if you were hostile, careless or malicious. Being friends or at least comrades reduces a lot of the tension and allows you to trust one another enough to work out hard together.
Feeling of being part of a separate elite.
Mutual support - you're with a group of people who don't think you're crazy to spend evenings whacking each other with sticks or wearing funny clothes.


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