# So who taught who?



## John Bishop (Dec 7, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bveL-hWW_o&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3IQWhKnxLQ&feature=channel


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## Carol (Dec 7, 2008)

Hmmm...who made the tapes?  

Did Mr. Hassan make those tapes?  If he did, he committed a crime.  Pennsylvania requires that all parties consent to a recording of a telephone conversation. 

Did someone other than Mr. Hassan or Mr. Juchnik make those tapes?  If they did, they committed a federal crime.  FCC statues strictly forbid anyone to tape a telephone call if they are not an active participant in the call and do not have the consent of all parties to the conversation.

Sorry if that's slightly off topic...but I'm too much of a geek to not wonder...


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## Rabu (Dec 7, 2008)

Nice find.

Carol's insight is probably correct in regard to the violation of applicable laws.  I would trust to Mr Bishop to have some insight as to whether his posting or the original posting is in some violation considering his background in law enforcement.

Hassan Nimr Ramsey was the gentleman who went to prison for murder correct?  It was his actions which resulted in Mitose being prosecuted as a cult leader, correct?  How did that play out from the transcripts of the time?

Just placing the source for context.  Always look forward to seeing what can be brought up about the founders of the arts practiced here.

Perhaps a post or two on the originators of Kajukenbo would be good to see, as well as William Chow and some others from the west coast and Hawaii crowd of martial arts pioneers.

As always, you share insightful stuff.

Regards,

Rob


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## Matt (Dec 7, 2008)

Rabu said:


> Nice find.
> 
> Carol's insight is probably correct in regard to the violation of applicable laws.  I would trust to Mr Bishop to have some insight as to whether his posting or the original posting is in some violation considering his background in law enforcement.



The only state with a particular 'divulging' penalty I saw was Massachusetts (one of the 12 'two-party' states). Here's the link I found. Both California and Pennsylvania are 'two party states' in that consent must be given by both parties involved. There may be some chance of exception if this was a business call, but it seems that would really be stretching things. There's also the 'implied consent' possibility that one party said "i'm going to record this" and continuing the conversation implies that you agree. 

Apart from the phone law trivia, very interesting stuff. 

Matt


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## John Bishop (Dec 7, 2008)

You can look at it 2 ways.  
1. The clips have some historic value.  
or 2. They just show infighting between different factions.

I prefer to look at the historical value of these clips.  You are being privy to training discussions between 2 of the men who had close contact with James Mitose in the 70's.  You can look at it in a positive way, or negative way.   
What a treasure it would be to have taped conversations between men like Funakoshi, Kano, Itosu, Motobu, Chow, Emperado, etc.  
In the past Mitose has been described as a "enigma wrapped in mystery".  These conversations give you a little insight into the man and his teachings that has not been repackaged for magazine or book use.

As to the legalities of the audio tapes, that's between Hassan, Jucknik, and You Tube.  If they were recorded illegally, the statute of limitations has probably run years ago.  But I would not automatically assume that these men did not make it known to each other that they would be taking notes, or recording their discussions.


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## kempo (Dec 7, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> You can look at it 2 ways.
> 1. The clips have some historic value.
> or 2. They just show infighting between different factions.
> 
> ...


 
Point well taken!!


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## The Kai (Dec 7, 2008)

Not to say that anyone is right or wrong, but Mr Juchnik has always stresed the value of recording our histories
Besides that a little infighting and some history


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## punisher73 (Dec 8, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> As to the legalities of the audio tapes, that's between Hassan, Jucknik, and You Tube. If they were recorded illegally, the statute of limitations has probably run years ago. But I would not automatically assume that these men did not make it known to each other that they would be taking notes, or recording their discussions.


 
The recordings being legal or not is a non-issue. In the first audio clip that was there, you can hear Juchnik talk about the fact that he hadn't gotten to Radio Shack to buy some tapes and that he wanted to record the conversations so nothing was missed or misinterpreted.  It is right near the beginning when they talk about what time the call was supposed to be made.  This is right around the 38 second mark.

So the parties involved knew and consented to the conversations being recorded.


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## DavidCC (Dec 8, 2008)

BJ's position was that he and Mitose didn't do much physical training, that it was mostly priciple and theory.  Yet he was unable to discuss any of these things with NH.  Curious...


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## Doc (Dec 8, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> BJ's position was that he and Mitose didn't do much physical training, that it was mostly priciple and theory.  Yet he was unable to discuss any of these things with NH.  Curious...



"much?" You mean "any" right? My guess is that nobody taught anybody, but what does it matter? Lots of people taught by prominent names who suck, and a bunch of "nobody's" that are really smoking. It's all relative, and gets straightened out on the floor. The good creds of your teacher don't automatically fall to you. A person's creds begins and ends with them, good or bad.


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## MattJ (Dec 9, 2008)

Best. 
Post. 
Ever. 

Thanks, Doc.


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## DavidCC (Dec 9, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> BJ's position was that he and Mitose didn't do much physical training, that it was mostly priciple and theory. Yet he was unable to discuss any of these things with NH. Curious...


 


Doc said:


> "much?" You mean "any" right? My guess is that nobody taught anybody, but what does it matter? Lots of people taught by prominent names who suck, and a bunch of "nobody's" that are really smoking. It's all relative, and gets straightened out on the floor. The good creds of your teacher don't automatically fall to you. A person's creds begins and ends with them, good or bad.


 
BJ's "position" was 'not much'; didn't say I believed it!


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## punisher73 (Dec 9, 2008)

I guess that opens up the question of where BJ learned his material.  I have heard several people comment on his skill level.


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## Danjo (Dec 9, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> I guess that opens up the question of where BJ learned his material. I have heard several people comment on his skill level.


 
Wasn't he a Tracy guy at some point?


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## Twin Fist (Dec 9, 2008)

i think so


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## KenpoDave (Dec 9, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Wasn't he a Tracy guy at some point?


 
He was.  And in an interview in Black Belt some years ago, stated that he still teaches the original material he was taught as a Tracy stylist.  Don't know if that still holds.


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## The Kai (Dec 9, 2008)

BJ is a execellent martial artist he has strayed pretty far from Tracy root material
IMHO I see Pak-ua, Silat, escrima/arnis influences in BJ system


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## Skippy (Dec 19, 2009)

Who cares? The entire Mitose fact or fiction, truth or myth has been done to death. The man's dead & gone. Let it rest.


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## John Bishop (Dec 19, 2009)

Skippy said:


> Who cares? The entire Mitose fact or fiction, truth or myth has been done to death. The man's dead & gone. Let it rest.



Actually, it was put to rest on 12-9-08.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Dec 30, 2009)

John Bishop said:


> Actually, it was put to rest on 12-9-08.


 

R.I.P.
Mitose
  put to rest on 12-9-08.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 30, 2009)

yeah, i dont gett hat date, what happened then?


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## shesulsa (Dec 30, 2009)

It was the last date posted on this thread until *someone* necro-posted and stirred the ****. No worries - said user has obviously been banned.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 30, 2009)

oh, i get it now


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