# 'Knife Epidemic' in U.K.



## arnisador (Dec 8, 2003)

In the U.K., the rising number of knife attacks is being labeled an 'epidemic' and part of a rise in 'knife culture':

http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/paperboy.cfm?id=1343952003
http://www.news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=637&id=1341852003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3244709.stm


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 8, 2003)

Typical.  Blame inanimate objects for the actions of people.


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## arnisador (Jan 21, 2004)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040120/ap_on_re_us/brf_prison_blades_1



> LANCASTER, Calif. - More than 1,000 prison inmates have been restricted to a single building for the past two weeks while guards search for 100 utility-knife blades stolen from a paint shop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Makalakumu (Jan 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Typical.  Blame inanimate objects for the actions of people. *



How about a waiting period?


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## Cruentus (Jan 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Typical.  Blame inanimate objects for the actions of people. *



Maybe they should institute manditory licensing and registration for anything sharp; knives, scissors, toe nail clippers, staplers, etc.

You know, because this has worked so well for gun control!

:rofl:


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## dearnis.com (Jan 22, 2004)

well, that's it right.  Too hard to get guns in the UK or prision, so they find other weapons.


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 22, 2004)

It's not hard to get guns in the UK at all.  It's not hard to get weapons (or drugs) in prison, either, though obviously it is more difficult than outside.  Violence is culturally determined, not spawned by the availability of tools.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 1, 2004)

Gee...Weren't crime and violence s'posed to go away when they banned guns?  Maybe if they ban all the weapons then it will stop...yeah right.


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## Clive (Mar 30, 2004)

It's true there is an epidemic, I had a bad case last week.


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 30, 2004)

sounds like people in the UK need to be more polite!


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## OUMoose (Mar 31, 2004)

Personally, I blame the French.  Not sure how they play into it, but I'm sure they do somewhere... /nod


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## OULobo (Mar 31, 2004)

It's an epidemic alright, the disease somehow abstructs all common sense. 

It's simple, if you take away the criminals' favorite toys, they just find other things to play with.


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## arnisador (Mar 31, 2004)

'Epidemic' seems an inapprorpiate word. It's a bunch of people breaking the law, for reasons that are essentially as *OULobo* indicates, I think.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 20, 2004)

I just returned to the states after living in the UK for 4 years.

Legally......they have issues!
I have never in my life known of a legal system that has been given the ability to read peoples minds....its amazing!
There,you get arrested for "intent"if you carry ANYTHING for defense...why?
Because they KNOW if you have ANYTHING...you WILL use it offensively.
I have a friend who was arrested for being in possesion of a lock-blade with a 2 3/4in blade....only because it LOCKS.He uses it for work,but because it has a lock....he got done.
You can't even own a multi-tool if it locks...thats an offensive weapon.
Now,granted,if you use a knife in a legal self-defense manner,you can win the court case....THEN,you get charged with carrying the weapon in the first place!
 And they think the way around the problem is to penalise the whole country for the acts of one idiot.
I am an instructor,32 years in the martial arts,raised as an outdoorsman where knives have been a part of my upbringing and my families for generations......I know how to respect the use of knives.
But to the British courts....I was a felon just for being in possesion...they KNEW I was going to do something "aweful terrible" with a knife.
If one person does something bad with an object....they want to take it away from the whole country.......
I told a policeman I could kill with a toothbrush....
does that meant "trained" dentists should be prepared to do some overtime in the future?!
Education is the way round problems......Not penalising the whole country.
But as I like to say;
I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6!


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## someguy (Apr 20, 2004)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> I told a policeman I could kill with a toothbrush....
> does that meant "trained" dentists should be prepared to do some overtime in the future?!
> QUOTE]
> Not going to say anything about British dentestry not going to say it not going to say it...
> ...


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## satans.barber (Apr 20, 2004)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> I have a friend who was arrested for being in possesion of a lock-blade with a 2 3/4in blade....only because it LOCKS.He uses it for work,but because it has a lock....he got done.



He shouldn't have, you're entitled to carry things you need for work. But, a lock knife is the same as a fixed blade knife in the eyes of the law, and so they're not legal carry unless you need it for work.

Ian.


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## arnisador (Apr 20, 2004)

Thanks for the inside info. *Bammx2*!


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## KenpoTex (Apr 21, 2004)

There was a discussion on England's weapons laws on another board I'm involved with and one of the guy's on that forum said that there's a law that requires you to prove you have a reason for carrying anything that could be used as a weapon.  For example, if you're carrying a screwdriver you'd better be a mechanic or a carpenter, otherwise it's considered possession of a deadly weapon.  I don't know if it's accurate but it wouldn't suprise me based on the other idiotic laws they've made in the last few years.  
  And as far as the guns v. crime topic, I saw a stat. the other day that said that gun crime has increased by 40% since they banned gun ownership.  Go figure.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 21, 2004)

actually.....

gun crime has risen 70% since they banned hadguns.
the UK has approxamately 28 shootings everyday,about 10,280 as compared to the US amount of 11,000.
per capita...they have us beat by a long shot.
 And the gun crimes are getting worse as we go along.
They have the only law enforcement community that does not carry guns.
They have special units for that.
2 weeks befor eI left in march....an entire van load of police was sprayed with full auto fire.
 Knowing the problems they have there,they are finally starting to realise that the same thing that worked 100yrs ago...can't work now.
I do not promote vigilanties...but they need to realise that just because you defend yourself to the full extent,without going overboard,that everyone will not become as such.
I like the country..thats why I am going back for work,but damn....the laws concerning the safety of you and yours......ooooweeee! lets catch up y'all!


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## satans.barber (Apr 22, 2004)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> actually.....
> 
> gun crime has risen 70% since they banned hadguns.
> the UK has approxamately 28 shootings everyday,about 10,280 as compared to the US amount of 11,000.
> ...



Where on earth are you getting these ridiculous statisitcs from?

Ian.


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## Andi (Apr 22, 2004)

I was wondering that...


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## Bammx2 (Apr 22, 2004)

well,lets see.....

Some very good friends who work for the met police,security officials at Heathrow....By reading news papers(i.e,the Daily mail,NOT the star)
Working on the door for almost 3 years...I was only there for 4.
I also traveled quite a bit and got see some things first hand from variuos places.
The BBC wouldn't lie.....would it?!
Bad example...I know.
And just because you don't know this....why is it rediculous?
I didn't limit myself to one place,I searched things out to find out what the news wasn't reporting.
I was in contact with a lot of police officers....that was mainly where I got my "rediculous" stats from.
I almost forgot.......
A&E stats from around the country!
Now THEY know a thing or 2 the news AND the police won't tell.
Sorry if I got it wrong....


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## arnisador (Apr 10, 2005)

Is this still a hot issue there?


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## Bammx2 (Apr 10, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Is this still a hot issue there?


Even more so now.
 Like I said in another post,if certain people get thier way,they want a mandatory 5 years sentence for knives..or the people who use them.
If it's someone like a chef or butcher,the knives MUST be in a locked box for trans....or else.
None of these laws have gone into effect,yet,but that is what they are hoping for.
 The head of Nottingham police department announced publicly last month,his department is screwed!
 He has appealed to other police agencies to help with the crime cases since they are so under maned and crime has gotten WAY out of hand.
As soon as he made the announcement....parliament was all over the news sayin he was wrong...like they know squat!
 The POLICE also know the UK IS on the thresh hold of total anarchy.
Screw what the mp's say...he is speaking for the beat police.
Speaking of....assaults on police have gone up 300% in the last 2 years.
Oh yea...the "multitools"...they are getting banned as well.
The government honestly act as if the public is too stupid to make thier own decisions.We're NOT,ya know!
Did you know...it's ILLEGAL to put a plug outlet in the bathroom here?
"safety reasons"
 What moron ACTUALLY tried to dry thier hair WHILE in the shower?!
:shrug:
So yea...it has gotten pretty bad and they REFUSE to change things.Arrogance really.
But the government has backed theselves into a corner.They squeezed so tight,everyone has fallen through thier fingers...kinda like squeezing sand....cept the "sheep".
After talking to loads of people,it was basically concluded,if the they legalised things like pepper spray,asp batons,stun guns and things for general self-defense...it would be total chaos in the streets! For about 6 months or less...then the criminals would back way off because the field would be leveled...but we can't have that,can we?


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## arnisador (Apr 11, 2005)

Sheesh! Well, thanks for the update.


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## Simon Curran (Apr 11, 2005)

Sharp Phil said:
			
		

> It's not hard to get guns in the UK at all. It's not hard to get weapons (or drugs) in prison, either, though obviously it is more difficult than outside. Violence is culturally determined, not spawned by the availability of tools.


With all due respect, where do you get the idea that it is not hard to get guns in the UK at all?
I was born and raised in the UK in a pretty harsh area, and although I know there were guns, it is incorrect to say that guns are not difficult to get hold of.

Bamm, whilst I agree with you, that the laws don't allow for the application of common sense, and the people who are likely to stab or shoot at random are pretty much unconcerned with whether a weapon is legal or not, I must admit that I am of the opinion that weapons beget more weapons, by that I mean that the toe rags who wouldn't normally be armed would be more likely to be armed if they knew that their potential prey was also likely to be armed.

Just an opinion...


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## Cruentus (Apr 11, 2005)

The more intrusive laws like these get, the more people that people will violently rebel against government and police. This is just the way it is...

Paul


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## Bammx2 (Apr 11, 2005)

Simon....

I'm stumped.I can't agree or disagree.
 I can definately see where you're commin from,but I can't say I fully agree....
but I can't say I disagree either....
hhmm...........


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## Simon Curran (Apr 11, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> Simon....
> 
> I'm stumped.I can't agree or disagree.
> I can definately see where you're commin from,but I can't say I fully agree....
> ...


I know what you mean, I would like to live in a society where weapons were totally unnecessary, but unfortunately I don't believe in Utopia...
Conversly, I also find weapons fascinating (as I am sure most blokes do...) and would like to have the freedom to make my own choice as to ownership, but I have never found a weapon necessary for myself, so if I did own one it would be more for recreation (sports shooting in the case of a firearm or martial arts in the case of a blade)


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## Simon Curran (Apr 11, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> The more intrusive laws like these get, the more people that people will violently rebel against government and police. This is just the way it is...
> 
> Paul


I agree with you to a certain extent, here in Denmark all weapons are banned, and the police are held in very low regard (they are themselves armed by the way) but I think that is more of a societal issue than one of rebellion.


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## arnisador (Apr 11, 2005)

Rebellion seems a bit strong, but I do see the point.


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## Simon Curran (Apr 12, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Rebellion seems a bit strong, but I do see the point.


Yeah, sorry I couldn't really think of a more appropriate word...
Nedd to get that damn thesaurus found out again


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## Bammx2 (Apr 12, 2005)

The only sure-fire way I see to end the "weapons "problem" is either stop all manufacture fo said "weapons",which would lead to banning all forms of combat since you can learn to use ANYTHING as a weapon,or give everyone the right have all access to them.

 I could honestly care less about the people "who see no reason" for them...If they don't want them,fine.Don't go near them.
And do NOT penalise me for for it just beacause they don't like something!
When all is said and done....NOTHING is going to stop crime!(not in our life time anyway) Criminals WILL find something,anything..to use as a weapon to hurt other people!
 And this garbage of "ban them to keep them out of the hands of thie criminals is " is exactly that....garbage!
 It's just a way to keep the revolving door of the legal system moving.
Face it...if there was no crime,some people who have a hard time makin a living. And I'm ok with that.
 Lets just say...forget the weapons.If person A doesn't like them,stay where you are safe.
 Person B might live in an area where they do need them to protect themselves.
 So lets change the subject.....
lets tackle CRIME itself.
NOT the instruments!


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## Simon Curran (Apr 12, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> The only sure-fire way I see to end the "weapons "problem" is either stop all manufacture fo said "weapons",which would lead to banning all forms of combat since you can learn to use ANYTHING as a weapon,or give everyone the right have all access to them.


And there we have the problem with the "intent" clause in UK law, to me it may look like a ball point pen, but change the context, and it is a potentially lethal weapon...
I have to say, I find myself constantly sitting on the fence with this issue, because as I said before, I think weapons are kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, but I also agree that it is wrong that the power effectively lies in the hands of the criminals who are going to use a weapon, laws be damned.


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## NeilX66 (Apr 12, 2005)

Just to correct a couple of the stats that are being thrown around on the thread according to the Home office reports for 2003, there were 10,340 firearm related offences commited in the UK, of this 68 were murders (figures from the British Crime Survey), for the same time period the US had 9,638 firearm related murders (figures from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports ), you only have to see the media response to a fatal shooting to realise that its still not that common in the UK.

That said I agree with BammX2, its not the weapon, its the person, making handguns (or knives, given the title of the thread ) illegal will not stop criminals using them as by there very nature they don't care about breaking the law, I was in the process of getting my firearms licence when the ban came into effect, I train in the filipino martial arts, which because of its involvement with blades I feel could soon come under threat, I have collected knives and swords since I was a teenager, and would hate to have them taken off me, why should I lose knives that I personally bought in Spain, or the Philippines, because some idiot with a 99p knife from a DIY shop doesn't know right from wrong.

Is knife related crime in the UK on the increase ? I think its hard to judge as there is a lot of media hype surrounding the issue, reminds me of the media feeding frenzy surrounding martial arts (especially ninja ) weapons a few years back. 

Bamm, I see you have Rapid Arnis as one of your styles, is that under Pat O'Malley ?

Neil


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## Bammx2 (Apr 12, 2005)

NeilX66 said:
			
		

> Just to correct a couple of the stats that are being thrown around on the thread according to the Home office reports for 2003, there were 10,340 firearm related offences commited in the UK, of this 68 were murders (figures from the British Crime Survey), for the same time period the US had 9,638 firearm related murders (figures from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports ), you only have to see the media response to a fatal shooting to realise that its still not that common in the UK.
> 
> That said I agree with BammX2, its not the weapon, its the person, making handguns (or knives, given the title of the thread ) illegal will not stop criminals using them as by there very nature they don't care about breaking the law, I was in the process of getting my firearms licence when the ban came into effect, I train in the filipino martial arts, which because of its involvement with blades I feel could soon come under threat, I have collected knives and swords since I was a teenager, and would hate to have them taken off me, why should I lose knives that I personally bought in Spain, or the Philippines, because some idiot with a 99p knife from a DIY shop doesn't know right from wrong.
> 
> ...


Neil,
Greetings!
1st,I must add...That I do know and agree with the corrections you have made and the only reply I can offer is...regardless of how many murders are gun related here in the UK...the "incidents" are still extrmely high for a country that touts to the world their "strict,no gun policy". According to the policy,there should be NO incidents other than the occasional moron who blows his "bollocks" off shooting skeet..or someone elses
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I stand corrected.

 In my classes...I do not teach the knife aspect of the philipine arts....or so to speak...
 I don't let the newbies know up front that they are transposable from the stick.And most have no idea!
 And being a 6 week old club...EVERYONE is a newb!
As time goes on...I shall be extremely careful what I teach and to whom.

And yes....
 I have officially become one of Pat O'Malley's brood!
ya don't have any dirt on him do ya?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





MABUHAY!


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## NeilX66 (Apr 13, 2005)

No real dirt as such, I trained predominatly under John Harvey when they were both Rapid Arnis, though Pats name is on my full instructors certificate, I trained a lot with Lucy, Pats wife, for many years, and we went through many gradings together, shared more than a few bumps and bruises  (and beers ). They are both great instructors with a wealth of knowledge.

Back on thread, I found an interesting stat the other day, Japan has one of the most restrictive gun ownership regs in the world, and while gun crime is very low, violent crime is extremley high, but worse, over 50% of it seems to be commited by the 14 - 17 year age group, you can understand the worries about a 'knife culture' in the government / police when you start seeing things like that, look at this weekends case, a 15 year old girl gets stabbed at a party, because she stood on someones foot ???, whats that about ?

I'm with you as well on teaching knife to beginners, I sometimes get them doing knife defence from a straight thrust, so when we do go on to the knife they aren't so scared of it, as for not seeing the relationship between stick to knife, I've had people who can't see the relationship between a solo stick drill and a partner drill, but we were all beginners at one point and everyone learns at there own pace

neil


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## TonyM. (Apr 13, 2005)

Reminds me of DC. In the late seventies they reported that 67 per cent of murders committed in DC were committed with weapons other than firearms. Good old fashioned knives, bricks and pipes.


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## arnisador (Nov 1, 2005)

Anyone know if this is still a hot issue in the British press? Probably they've moved on to other things by now.


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## arnisador (Dec 16, 2005)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_obj...--japanese-swords-to-be-banned-name_page.html



> SAMURAI swords are to be banned after becoming the weapon of choice for gangsters.
> Home Office Minister Hazel Blears told MPs this week she was "looking seriously" at outlawing the weapons.
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> 
> ...



Older news from Down Under:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1061207.htm
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/02/1056825457398.html


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16463987&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=the-last-samurai--japanese-swords-to-be-banned-name_page.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There can only be one?

Bad guys will find some way of using some form of a weapon.


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