# Bunkai and practical application with Sip Soo



## Karate_Dave (Dec 26, 2008)

Good day!

I have trained for over 11 years in various martial arts, but now want to slow down and examine the kata/hyung I know.  The biggest questions I have are about Sip Soo (Tang Soo Do).  I am unsure about the meaning of the moves, especially in the begining.  I can perform the Hyung, but wish to know what I'm supposed to be doing. 

Any input would be great.


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## jks9199 (Dec 26, 2008)

Karate_Dave said:


> Good day!
> 
> I have trained for over 11 years in various martial arts, but now want to slow down and examine the kata/hyung I know.  The biggest questions I have are about Sip Soo (Tang Soo Do).  I am unsure about the meaning of the moves, especially in the begining.  I can perform the Hyung, but wish to know what I'm supposed to be doing.
> 
> Any input would be great.


Try working with a partner...


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## MBuzzy (Dec 26, 2008)

Any specific examples of moves that you would like to discuss?  Several of the moves appear in other hyung and while I have never examined Ship soo, I have some of the others.


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## Yossarian (Dec 27, 2008)

Sip Soo is a form I have hardly explored aplication wise. There are a few ideas on this thread here.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000062;p=2


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## JT_the_Ninja (Dec 27, 2008)

One application of the first few moves that my sa bom nim showed me was of someone grabbing your collar (same-side grab on a dobok lapel). The hand on the side that was grabbed comes up to hold the hand in place while the other simultaneously comes up to hyperextend the elbow (hence why they meet in the middle - it's a matter of timing and simultaneity). It's not blatantly obvious, and it's almost assuredly not the only one there is (why have them pass over each other, instead of one behind, which would fit more neatly with that particular application), but it's the one I know best.

On the first one, pulling back the left hand to the side, to me, means you're gonna follow up with an attack from that side, but that's just me.

The "fold-over" of the left hand before the knife-hand "block" to the right is also tricky, because although they might naturally follow from the previous move, they don't have to. The first move is wrapping around your opponent's neck, behind the head. Then you step and chop -- this is why you sort of step *into* the move -- almost implying a knee to the gut with the right knee. 

There's a lot more, but I'm sure the thread Yossarian posted has these and more.

Tang Soo! I've been training for about 9½ years, so I know what you mean by wanting to shore up the hyung you know.


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## Karate_Dave (Jan 1, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> Any specific examples of moves that you would like to discuss? Several of the moves appear in other hyung and while I have never examined Ship soo, I have some of the others.


 
I must tell ya'll after a few days browsing here I feel like a white belt again...lol... I trained for many years in NJ and always is a dojang/dojo.  Never from a book.

I've received several ideas about possible meanings for the beginning of the kata, now the application of the down push block before the right chop in the beginning... ideas?


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## MBuzzy (Jan 1, 2009)

Karate_Dave said:


> I must tell ya'll after a few days browsing here I feel like a white belt again...lol... I trained for many years in NJ and always is a dojang/dojo.  Never from a book.
> 
> I've received several ideas about possible meanings for the beginning of the kata, now the application of the down push block before the right chop in the beginning... ideas?



By down push block and chop are we talking about moves 1-3 basically?  The two opposing motion movements followed by the choong dan soo do mahk kee?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jan 2, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> By down push block and chop are we talking about moves 1-3 basically?  The two opposing motion movements followed by the choong dan soo do mahk kee?



If so, *points a few posts up*


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## Makalakumu (Jan 2, 2009)

Here is a TSD version of Sip Soo.  I like to throw a Shotokan version because this is where our hyung come from and sometimes looking at the roots helps you understand application.  This is Jitte.  While I'm at it, here is the Okinawan version of this kata.

This progression is very important if you are going to understand kata application.  You have to see where the kata comes from in order to understand where changes have been made along the way and in order to understand how the various moves were applied closer to a lineage that traces back to a time when the kata was being used in self defense.

Sip Soo is Jitte.  Jitte means Ten Hands, here is the Wiki on the kata.



> The mastery of Jitte (translated: "ten hands") should in theory enable one to face ten adversaries. Its origin is from the Tomari-te school. Some claim that the name, Jitte, is derived from the position of the raised fists, resembling a type of sai known as a jitte, which occurs a number of times in the kata. This rather short kata of only 24 movements contains a number of defenses that can be implemented against the bo. It is somewhat unusual in that the kata does not end exactly where it begins. Also known in some styles as Sip Soo.


 
I checked youtube for some good bunkai for sip soo, but I've not been able to find any.  Most people seem stuck in looking at moves in the (punch/block) paradigm.  If you look at the Okinawan version, however, a lot of the moves that we would consider as _strikes_ or _blocks_ certainly aren't performed that way.

Here is my suggestion for an application to the so called _mountain block_.

The Okinawan version of this kata supports this application.  If you look at the entrance that this technique is performed and the angles that the arms are held, you can clearly see that someone could be carried and thrown on their head.

Shotokan used to teach this throw, but it was taken out of their basics list some time in the 70s.  The bottom line is that applications for sip soo will not make sense unless you consider a full range of technique.  From strikes, to blocks, to throws, to joint locks, etc.


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## astrobiologist (Jan 10, 2009)

Right on maunakumu...

A knowledge of the martial arts is always weakened by a closed mind.  Any person training in a style that claims that their style has no grappling or there is no striking or no trapping or no breathing exercises just hasn't really examined their style effectively.  Sip Soo is a great form for examination.  Thanks for posting the link to the shoulder throw.  I agree completely.  The shoulder throw is a totally viable application of this movement.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2009)

You know, there is a lot more then that.  It's threads like this that motivate me to finish my book as fast as I can.  Knowing about it is one thing.  Taking time to practice them is another.  Having a curriculum that effectively teaches this material is another thing altogether.  It will be interesting to see how this material is received by the TSD community.

Sip Soo is a great form.  When you understand all of its applications, you can definitely see why it is named Ten Hands.


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