# The graphic results of knife fighting



## Bigshadow (Mar 14, 2006)

This is the graphic results of a knife being used on a law enforcement officer attempting a disarm.  This appears to be distributed by a deputy U.S. Marshal.

BEWARE! These are explicitly graphic so BEWARE!

http://kukan.active-logic.com/docs/knifeinjury.pdf


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## Flatlander (Mar 14, 2006)

Well, that was thoroughly disgusting.  

I reiterate that the images are graphic, and really quite unpleasant to look at.

However, it's a reality check for anyone who has discounted the danger of the blade......


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## shesulsa (Mar 14, 2006)

Yes it is.  And since the victim is an LEO, I daresay he was likely clothed at the time of the attack.  Your knife at work, people. Sensitive stomach? look away ...


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 14, 2006)

Guy must not have been wearing a vest. They wont stop puncture attacks, but a knife wont be able to slash through a vest like that.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 14, 2006)

Dang! How big was that knife anyway? Those look more like sword cuts than a knife. Geez... Must've been painful just to sit up and have the photos taken. 
Wonder how many stitches it took altogether? 

Yeah, what a knife, a sharp knife can do in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. 


Hope the LEO is okay after all of that.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 14, 2006)

I would have to agree that he was probably not wearing his vest.
Definately some graphic photos of what can happen in a knife fight.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Jimi (Mar 14, 2006)

This re-enforces what one of my instructors told me years ago. Beware the blade!


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## samurai69 (Mar 14, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> Dang! How big was that knife anyway? Those look more like sword cuts than a knife. Geez... Must've been painful just to sit up and have the photos taken.
> Wonder how many stitches it took altogether?
> 
> Yeah, what a knife, a sharp knife can do in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.
> ...


 
More likely a razor or box cutter


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 14, 2006)

Also shows the difference between slashing and stabbing. The guy lived. Slashes look ugly but you can survive them...keep fighting.


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## scottcatchot (Mar 14, 2006)

very intense, thats why you don't play around and try to be fancy with someone who has a knife. (Of course I am not saying that is what the officer did by the way)


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## Bigshadow (Mar 14, 2006)

They are very graphic and explicit, however, it gives a very sobering reminder of the results of using a knife.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 14, 2006)

first step in knife defense:  run away

second step in knife defense: run away faster


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 14, 2006)

second scary thought:

the guy wielding the knife probably didn't know what he was doing.  those slashes were across the back, chest and stomach.  a trained attacker would have hit the brachial artery, femoral artery, major tendons....

so those nasty photos were of what an *untrained* attacker can do to a trained defender.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 14, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> second scary thought:
> 
> the guy wielding the knife probably didn't know what he was doing.  those slashes were across the back, chest and stomach.  a trained attacker would have hit the brachial artery, femoral artery, major tendons....
> 
> so those nasty photos were of what an *untrained* attacker can do to a trained defender.


Well granted that may be true. But keep in mind that even a trained knife weilder may try to go for those various points you mentioned but not always be successful. An officer is (supposed to be) trained to _protect_ those vitals. 
In a (mutual) knife fight I'm going to try for those vitals myself and then some, but at the same time I'm going to be protecting mine best as I can, and if in doing so I'm unable to reach those in my opponent then I'm going to inflict as much bodily damage as possible. If the fight is one sided (me, weaponless) then I'm going to protect the same vitals best as I can while trying to avoid the blade altogether.


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## Flatlander (Mar 14, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> An officer is (supposed to be) trained to _protect_ those vitals.


Sadly, this isn't necessarily the case.  In my understanding, by and large, standard LEO combat training is weak and insufficient, both in terms of armed and unarmed conflict.  So, IMO, they are no more trained to protect their vitals areas than any other regular untrained shmoe.  They are, however, trained in awareness and the protection of life, i.e. - don't let the bad guy get even close enough to do that. 

Quite obviously, a mistake had been made here - not enough back up, unsafe practices, etc.  Which is really too bad.


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## MSUTKD (Mar 14, 2006)

He should have used flashlight defense, that would have saved him. lol

ron


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## Bigshadow (Mar 14, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Sadly, this isn't necessarily the case.  In my understanding, by and large, standard LEO combat training is weak and insufficient, both in terms of armed and unarmed conflict.  So, IMO, they are no more trained to protect their vitals areas than any other regular untrained shmoe.


That is precisely what I gather from my LEO friends. They only get a few hours per year of hand to hand.  It really isn't much at all.  If they get any more, they usually have to pursue something outside of their work responsibilities.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 14, 2006)

The LE edged weapons work I've seen was very complex, long winded and only trained once in a blue moon and even then very compliantly. I'm sure it varys from force to force but this seems to be a common theme.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2006)

This is why i have discarded almost all the knife defenses that I was taught in kenpo.  I have no faith in them and I would not want to fool myself or a student into thinking they are reliable.  Better to know you aren't capable of dealing with the situation and just look for the first opportunity to run, then to think you can handle it and end up with your guts in your hands.

Until I learn something else that makes more sense, I am content to be realistic and recognize my own inadequacy.


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2006)

Yes, those pics. were nasty, but IMHO, its good for people to see exactly what a blade can do.  I agree with FC.  There are many knife defenses/disarms out there that IMO, would most likely get someone killed or seriously hurt.  I've always been a believer that if you want to learn defense against something like a blade, train in an art, such as the FMAs, that focus alot on blade work.  

Mike


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## lalom (Mar 14, 2006)

Wow.  Amazing (in a sad way).  I think every MA'er out there really needs to see reality up close and personal.  I pray for the LEO that he was able to be patched up enough and his family for the mental/emotional trauma of having to see that.  

Seeing all that makes me want to train... seriously train.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 14, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Yes, those pics. were nasty, but IMHO, its good for people to see exactly what a blade can do. I agree with FC. There are many knife defenses/disarms out there that IMO, would most likely get someone killed or seriously hurt. I've always been a believer that if you want to learn defense against something like a blade, train in an art, such as the FMAs, that focus alot on blade work.
> 
> Mike



Even with FMA training you are going to get cut. Going up against a weapon with any kind pf training is still a last ditch option. Better to have the training, but I wouldnt think that that couldnt happen to me because I take FMA.


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## Jimi (Mar 14, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Even with FMA training you are going to get cut. Going up against a weapon with any kind pf training is still a last ditch option. Better to have the training, but I wouldnt think that that couldnt happen to me because I take FMA.


Hear Hear! I Agree!


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Even with FMA training you are going to get cut. Going up against a weapon with any kind pf training is still a last ditch option. Better to have the training, but I wouldnt think that that couldnt happen to me because I take FMA.


 
Never said that having FMA training would make you immune to getting cut.  My first option, would be to get out of the situation.  If that was not an option, picking up something to use as a shield or to aid in your defense is another possibility.

My point was simply that the FMA based arts focus more on blade work than many other non weapon oriented arts out there.  The same could be applied to grappling.  If I wanted to learn how to defend a takedown or get better at taking someone down, I'd much rather seek out a grappler than someone unfamiliar with grappling.

Sorry for the confusion. 

Mike


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 14, 2006)

No. Im sorry for the confusion sir. I wasnt quoting you to disagree with your point. Just as a response to get a conversation going. And as a base for my opinion which is that some (not you) people get deluded into thinking they wont get cut or killed if they study some special MA. Its a crapshoot, training just gives you better odds is my point.


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## still learning (Mar 14, 2006)

Hello, Thanks for sharing that!  It will make you think more about what could happen when trying to disarm a knife attacker.  That Deputy is luckly to be alive with that much wounds.

Just a note: If you have no choice and corner/trap....always use two hands to hold the knife hand, if you are able to grap it, and use the rest of your body to strike back! (head butts,stomps,knees,kicks and BITING).

Many times you will not see the knife when approach by a attacker....the cuts will be fast and surprising...........awareness always.....Aloha


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## bshovan (Mar 14, 2006)

As i'm viewing this now while watching American Idol I can only say that if Randy and Simon were viewing these you would not go onto the next showing. Trying to keep it real and honest though, I did see many good principles but the overall applications were less to be desired.


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## MJS (Mar 15, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> No. Im sorry for the confusion sir. I wasnt quoting you to disagree with your point. Just as a response to get a conversation going. And as a base for my opinion which is that some (not you) people get deluded into thinking they wont get cut or killed if they study some special MA. Its a crapshoot, training just gives you better odds is my point.


 
Not a problem. 

I do agree with you though.  Pick up any Martial Art magazine and we'll see countless ads for people offering the latest, greatest, super secret, leave your attacker immobilized in 5 secs., death touch ads.  

After looking at those pictures, IMO, the best defense is get the hell out of the area if you can.

Great discussion and topic!:ultracool 

Mike


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## shesulsa (Mar 15, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> As i'm viewing this now while watching American Idol I can only say that if Randy and Simon were viewing these you would not go onto the next showing. Trying to keep it real and honest though, I did see many good principles but the overall applications were less to be desired.


I don't understand this post??


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 15, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I don't understand this post??


 
Well, not to put words into someone's mouth, but here goes anywats.  

Taking a pop culture reference that people will not understand in another 5 to ten years and applying it to the knife attack.

Ignore head wound as no pictures.

There is one knife wound across the chest horizontally. It is too high, it should be lower to debowel the person, assuming a kill was in order. I am unable to determine from this picture alone if the guy was right handed or left handed and which side of the body was first point of contact. Although if I had to guess I would say it was made left to right on the picture as the right side looks "lighter" like it was beginning to pull away or the person in the picture moved away. Could be backhand from right handed person or lefthanded forward slash.

One his right side of the person in the picture there is a cut just above the floating rib area. One again too high, if kidney is desired once again for a killing attack.

Two(three) on his back: one down and the other left to right and back zig-zag to the left again. This one lifts and comes back across.

Once again this is across the high portion of the back and not in a killing zone (* unless extreme blood loss *). I believe that the down strike was made first by the way that the cross back has created a little flesh wall.
The zig zag cam next with the deepest being the far left pulling out of the right and then back in with the pull out on the left side.

If I had to guess I would say the person left handed, or always missed their forhand stirke to close, or preferred the back hand strike. I still believe the left hand is more probable. 

If I had to reconstruct, the left hand of the knife wielder came out and cut the guy in the picture, he then dodged to he left which opened up his right side for theback hand strike of the knifer. As the guy went to get away, it looks like he was attacked from behind as he fell, and the strike down could have been to also knock him down as well, as there is evidence of a head wound. The zig-zag then followed up with the guys falling out of reach or trying to roll out of the way with his back exposed. 

The knifer could have run away at that point, or back up arrived, or the knifer could have thought the guy in the picture was as good as dead.

So, I believe the comment is that if it was done right, these would be pictures of a dead body and not of a person being worked on.


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## thetruth (Mar 16, 2006)

I just got that in my email.  If u have a gun USE IT.   
It isn't necessarily a good thing to run from a knife attacker as the inate predator in us can come into play when we turn our back on an attacker and they will just pounce.  Having your back turned also makes it easier as you are faceless.   

Cheers
Sam


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## Drac (Mar 16, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> This re-enforces what one of my instructors told me years ago. Beware the blade!


 
Yes..I recieved the same photos through the LEO network...Very Scary..


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## Bob D. (Mar 16, 2006)

I've seen these around and I think it was said this was a prison inmate not a LEO. 
Clean cuts look like razer or extreamly sharp knife!


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## RoninPimp (Mar 16, 2006)

Does anybody have any info on how the altercation that did this was finally ended?


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## Cryozombie (Mar 16, 2006)

Well, I'd hope the cop shot the dude...


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## RoninPimp (Mar 16, 2006)

It was said above that this was a inmate vs. another inmate. The guards breaking it up wouldn't have had firearms I don't think. Anybody know???


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Mar 16, 2006)

Greetings all,

Very interesting photos from an educational perspective, and even more interesting are the reactions that I see. Truthfully, these are not that bad. They are not good, but they are mostly superficial wounds. No vital targets were injured such as the throat, heart or other vital internal organs.

I have unfortunately seen this and more, and it has impacted my martial arts training since day one. In training we have produced equally devastating cuts on training materials using knives as small as 2 inches. Pretty scary huh?

As many of you may know, I take my knife fighting and knife defense VERY seriously. It is photos like this that offer visual evidence that supports my constant comments to my martial arts brothers and sisters on the dangers of the blade. We need more training (physical and mental/attitude).

This is a sad reminder of how bad self defense can get. Just think of how many times we hear about an assault, shootings and stabbing in the news on a daily basis. And that&#8217;s if these incidents even make it to the news. Just today there was a report on a woman stabbed to death here in San Francisco. The worst part is we become too desensitized, and keep thinking that &#8220;this will never happen to me&#8221;, and so do not take proactive steps to prevent this.

I hope this will motivate us all to do more training, and hope and pray that we will never have to use it.

With brotherhood,
GM De Alba


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## Fedco (Mar 16, 2006)

Greetings, a little clarification on this photo. First this was a fed inmate and NOT a LEO. There are more pics of this, I'll see if I still have them.
This inmate was lucky, this was more or less a "warning." Probably a Bic razor blade melted into the end of a toothbrush, fairly common. As far as stopping the assault, Fed. correctional officers do not carry any type of weapons, the inmates will mostly ignore the officers orders to stop until more staff arrive and then surrender.


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## Flatlander (Mar 16, 2006)

Fedco said:
			
		

> Greetings, a little clarification on this photo. First this was a fed inmate and NOT a LEO.


How do you know this?  Is there a story somewhere that we can reference?


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## Fedco (Mar 17, 2006)

I work Fed. corrections.


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## Cirdan (Mar 17, 2006)

Fedco said:
			
		

> This inmate was lucky, this was more or less a "warning." Probably a Bic razor blade melted into the end of a toothbrush, fairly common.


 
Seems likely. The long cuts on the back and lack of stabs indicates a weapon unsuitable for stabbing and that grappling was involved.


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## Fedco (Mar 19, 2006)

More of these pics,but cann't post!


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## Bigshadow (Mar 19, 2006)

I had posted that it was a LEO based on the letter itself. As with anything on the internet, everything is not always as it seems.  As far as more photos, I must say for *me*, I have seen enough.


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## shesulsa (Mar 19, 2006)

Fedco said:
			
		

> More of these pics,but cann't post!


Fedco, PM me on this - email the pics to me and I may be able to post them if they are not too much more gruesome than already shown.

G


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 26, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Until I learn something else that makes more sense, I am content to be realistic and recognize my own inadequacy.



i've had the same thoughts/experience with the kenpo knife disarms.  i think the ones against an overhead attack might work, but nobody does that outside of horror movies.

krav maga (though very faddish these days) has some good responses to knife attacks.  simple, brutal, easy to remember.  you might want to check that out, or one of the similar arts like haganah or f.i.g.h.t.

of course, realistically, all i ever needed to know about knife defense i learned from my track coach.


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## aplonis (Mar 26, 2006)

As an itsy bitsy, teeny weeny prelude to such as this I had a look at the inside of my own left hand a few months ago after having layed it open accidentally with a box cutter. All healed up now, thanks. But something to reflect upon should I ever face the knife out on the street.

I'd never willingly stick around for a knife fight. But if ever there is to be a knife fight in my vicinity I hope to be carrying my Canemasters cane.  We practice with various toy daggars and such at our TKD school. And I am confident that no one armed only with a knife stands any chance against the cane.

Even so, if they'd permit me to retreat, I'd take them up on the offer. Guys what carry knives often have friends that do the same.

Gan Uesli Starling
http://wmtkd.us
Kalamazoo Chapter
Western Michigan Tae Kwon Do


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## Hand Sword (Mar 27, 2006)

Always avoid a knife fight! That said, don't underestimate the knife weilder or knife because you have a cane. They can make a mistake, get whacked, and try again.  If you make a mistake--Your dead! 
It's an easier and faster weapon to handle than a cane, and a lot more accurate.


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## Ric Flair (Mar 27, 2006)

pretty messed up.  Any Kali artist on here want to comment??????


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 27, 2006)

Ric Flair said:
			
		

> pretty messed up.  Any Kali artist on here want to comment??????



Read my comments back in the thread. Except my art would be Modern Arnis for the discussion of my blade work.


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## drummingman (Jan 11, 2008)

the link is no longer working.


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