# Wing Chun ranking system proposal.



## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 29, 2013)

Greetings to my fellow martial artists but at this time more specifically to my brothers and sisters in the Wing Chun/ Ving Tsun family.  As most of you probably know, Wing Chun, under the Ip Man family linage, never had and type of visible ranking system.  Some schools have incorporated belts or sashes like other styles of Kung-fu however, that does not match anything the Great Grandmaster did. They only used t-shirts. I agree that there is a need for establishing a visible skill level system and have developed and proposed one to my federation, the International Applied Wing Chun (IAWC) System.  I recently developed a ranking that uses 4 primary colors but also has subparts of the primary colors providing the Wing Chun system the latitude to use as many or as little as they desired but would set a consistent standard for Wing Chun world wide.  Please view the You tube vid at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdCr...diAvTUA&feature=em-comment_received&lch=email and please feel free to email me your input.  I want to see Wing Chun go to a whole new level worldwide and if that is going to happen, we must stop cutting each other down.  A famous proverb says, "a house divided against itself cannot stand."  nor will we as a martial art be able to stand, grow and improve if we continue to do likewise.  The "PROS" far out weigh the "CONS" in incorporating the shirt colors. It will provide consistent skill standards to achieve the color of shirt the student is wearing making Wing Chun tournaments, skill testing, transferring to a different school and just providing a clear progression within the art a "WIN" for all WC schools.  Thanks for listening and I hope to hear what you all think.


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## Cyriacus (May 29, 2013)

Yes. Wing Chun is a house. It must expand around the world as one united order. All hail the new world order.
Having ranks will totally do that, and wont at all divide the union even further based on what proofs those ranks.

:lurk:


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## WingChunIan (May 29, 2013)

Having a coloured T shirt does no more to prove your ability than a coloured belt or sash. They have no place in Wing Chun IMO and I would never consider introducing them. You learn what you are ready to learn when you are ready to learn it and are judged by your ability not by time served or the colour of your belt \ sash \ T shirt.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 29, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Yes. Wing Chun is a house. It must expand around the world as one united order. All hail the new world order.
> Having ranks will totally do that, and wont at all divide the union even further based on what proofs those ranks.
> 
> :lurk:



Cyriacus, thank you for your input.  My heart is just to see the art grow to its greatest potential and if it's going to happen, there must be some structure.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 29, 2013)

Ian, I fully agree.  A colored shirt does not prove a person's ability just like we've seen in other arts where a person has a black belt and their martial abilities don't validate the belt color that they are wearing however, visible goals for students, consistency in teaching, having the ability to see progression and providing a "standard" of knowledge level that coincides the colors with a curriculum IMO would give schools a tool to use in how they train / teach their students.  I also agree that each student's learning ability is different and that they shouldn't advance until they achieve what ever the standard is for that WC systems' curriculum.  Thank you for your input.


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## StormShadow (May 29, 2013)

In my kwoon, we only have certificates that says you basically have a handle of the material of that level.  There are no belts/slashes ect.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 29, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> In my kwoon, we only have certificates that says you basically have a handle of the material of that level.  There are no belts/slashes ect.


Storm Shadow, thank you for your input.  I am actually drafting up some certificate examples to show to my chief master to get his opinion/ input.  I would love to dialogue with you on how your kwoon does it.  I'm envisioning (for example) green shirt level knowing the 1st & 2nd forms (Sil Lim Tao/ Chum Kiu) Medium-Advanced level Chi Sau along with training drills and strengthening exercises. The certificate would start at green (in my system) and would continue on from there.  The shirt and patches would be the associated with knowledge and their ability to apply the technique prior to that.  Your thoughts?


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## Xue Sheng (May 29, 2013)

Name one Chinese martial art that has a universal ranking system that all follow or that has managed to unify anything

Now tell me how much the Chinese Duan system unified the CMA house....

Now tell me about how much all those Wing Chun styles out there that are not from Ip Man are going to jump on board the Wing Chun Unification band wagon...

Take your time..... I can wait


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## Xue Sheng (May 29, 2013)

Oh and I should also add that all you have proposed has already been done....in TKD.... and it did wonders for TKD didn't it


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## StormShadow (May 29, 2013)

Certificates that state you have a clear understanding of a certain level, I am ok with, I am not to found of belts/slashes or anything that can be leaned on as a trophy. People seem to gravitate to wanting to earn a certain belt/some clothing to parade it around and showcase it.  It is my opinion that no one needs to know your level except for you and your sifu. Leveling should just be looked upon as progressing through the art and not become a factory of prestige for showmanship. As long as I am confident in my abilities, in my learning and practice, a clothing item does nothing more to validate me.  It is merely for show.  Which practitioners of wing chun should be humble.  Granted that's a perfect world but I try to follow the principles in everything I do as much as possible.


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## Tames D (May 29, 2013)

A few years ago I proposed a universal ranking system composed of colored ear rings, to replace the belt system. Levels 1-5 would wear a colored ring in their left ear. When the 6th level is earned you would be awarded a pink ear ring to be warn in the right ear.
Unfortunately it was not warmly received and I suffered a severe beating in the presence of my lady friends.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2013)

I'm not a wing chun guy anymore, but I am a CMA guy.  One thing that I really really REALLY like about my school is that we DON'T use a visible ranking/belt/T-Shirt system.  It really goes a long way to keep the training clear of all that obnoxious stuff.  It's better of without it.

There is no real unity out there in all this.  Each school will simply need to stand on its own two feet.  And that's perfectly OK, so far as I am concerned.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2013)

Tames D said:


> A few years ago I proposed a universal ranking system composed of colored ear rings, to replace the belt system. Levels 1-5 would wear a colored ring in their left ear. When the 6th level is earned you would be awarded a pink ear ring to be warn in the right ear.
> Unfortunately it was not warmly received and I suffered a severe beating in the presence of my lady friends.



well clearly you were not up to the Pink Earring level, or you would not have suffered such a beating.  Next time you'll know better.  :uhyeah:


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## wtxs (May 29, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> Cyriacus, thank you for your input.  My heart is just to see the art grow to its greatest potential and if it's going to happen, there must be some structure.




Admirable intention indeed.  In order Wing Chun to attain its great potential, the WC community as a whole must willing to SHARE their knowledge 100% ... with a bowl of popcorn and beer, I'm still waiting.

Far as for the "standard" concern, an governing body has to be in-place to over see its on-going implementation, now we're going to open another can of worm


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## StormShadow (May 29, 2013)

This is why I open myself to train with others of different lineages.  It's all about obtaining and achieving YOUR personal best kung fu, not anyone else. If someone else has knowledge and a great way of doing something, I want to learn it. I, myself do not hold any false pretenses or egos regarding my or anyone else's lineage.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 29, 2013)

Xue Sheng, thank you for your input.  Unfortunately, I am not as learned of the Chinese martial arts history as you are and could not tell you what impact Chinese Duan had on the CMA house nor am naïve to believe that all the Wing Chun families, styles and systems will jump onboard to this idea.  What I am saying is, if utilized properly, this can provide clear consistent progression of learning levels and can benefit the growth of the art.  It can show affiliation  and provide quality control/ oversight (QC).  I recently retired after serving 30 years in the US Army, planned missions, had numerous deployments and unfortunately attended many memorial services but as a leader we always trained or soldiers to don't settle for status quo or "this is how it's always been done".  Always look for ways to make it better and to give more than you take.  That's all I'm trying to do and I welcome constructive criticism.  When I started TKD in the mid 70's there were only 6 belts.  Now there are 12-13 depending on the school you go to.  A close friend of mine has a very successful martial arts school with a consistent 250+ students for the last 19 years and that's all he does.  We both came from the same Moo Duk Kwon TKD background but both have expanded our knowledge into other arts.  I questioned him on how they've changed from the old ways and how there are double the amount of belts now. I also expressed my concern about the quality of TKD each student reflected. He explained a hard reality that I know is true because I experienced it in the military.  Society has become "less hungry"  for martial arts and for most things that have a cost whether it be time, money or sweat. Many people are  more "what's in it for me?" focused but still want to try.  He said that he's adjusted teaching styles only giving the "old school" ways to those who show that they're hungry and show the potential and aptitude to learn.  The others he teaches to their level pushing them to their abilities and provides confidence, physical exercise and classes to fit their 45-60min time block.  The ones that stay for additional classes and are always seeking more, reap the benefits of the "old school student" (or old ways we're accustomed to) the others get what they put in but still benefit and are healtier and more productive citizens. As a leader my goal has always been to, by my example, inspire soldiers to set realistic goals, accomplish the mission (to include their mission in life), take personal responsibility for their actions, and always look for ways to improve yourself and your surroundings in  spite of what others may say.  I am merely trying my best to do that for my new found passion Applied Wing Chun Kung-Fu.  Thank you again for your comments.~


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 29, 2013)

I agree.  It will be a challenge.  I don't know if the WC world is willing to "share their knowledge" but someone has to start the dialogue.  Why not me?  I'm used to dealing with people with a "CAN'T DO" , "SHOUDN'T DO" or "WHY DO?" attitude.  I will do the best that I can do and hopefully inspire someone else to do more than I.  Thank you again for the dialogue and constructive input. I look forward to more input from you.


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## yak sao (May 29, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> My heart is just to see the art grow to its greatest potential and if it's going to happen, there must be some structure.



But we have structure. First SNT, then CK.........

As honorable a goal as it may be, we will never come together under one roof. That ship has sailed, or the toothpaste is out of the tube, or whatever metaphor works here.

I went away from rank some time back, but recently went to a club shirt that simply has wing tsun written in calligraphy over the left chest area.
As a short term goal kind of thing, I have different colors of calligraphy for various levels.
SNT level is a black shirt with white calligraphy.
CK level is a black shirt with blue calligraphy.
BT and MYJ are black shirts with red calligraphy.
Pole and knives are a black shirt with gold calligraphy.

It works in our little corner of the world...I saw no need to convene an international counsel.



https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wing-Tsun-Chinese-Boxing-of-Kentucky/392054967486652


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## WingChunIan (May 30, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> I agree.  It will be a challenge.  I don't know if the WC world is willing to "share their knowledge" but someone has to start the dialogue.  Why not me?  I'm used to dealing with people with a "CAN'T DO" , "SHOUDN'T DO" or "WHY DO?" attitude.  I will do the best that I can do and hopefully inspire someone else to do more than I.  Thank you again for the dialogue and constructive input. I look forward to more input from you.


With regard to a common ranking system or codified syllabus I would disagree that "someone has to start the dialogue" it is a discussion that is not worth having as it adds absolutely no value other than to A) the suppliers of whatever merchandise you choose to mark your ranks B) those few individuals who are appointed \ appoint themselves to oversee the implementation by lining their pockets and boosting their egos. Sharing knowledge is not about ranks and grades it is about open exchange, seminars, training camps and gatherings that are lineage independent are vehicles for this to happen that can and do take place, unfortunately they are few and far between


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## Zero (May 30, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> Ian, I fully agree.  A colored shirt does not prove a person's ability just like we've seen in other arts where a person has a black belt and their martial abilities don't validate the belt color that they are wearing however, visible goals for students, _*consistency in teaching*_, having the ability to see progression _*and providing a "standard" of knowledge level *_that coincides the colors with a curriculum IMO would give schools a tool to use in how they train / teach their students.  I also agree that each student's learning ability is different and that they shouldn't advance until they achieve what ever the standard is for that WC systems' curriculum.  Thank you for your input.



I, as many, have witnessed this approach in TKD and karate.  Belts/sashes/certificates do not by any means guarantee a consistency in teaching or a standardisation of knowledge between different schools/clubs/dojos.  One blackbelt's ability in kumite, kata or just general ability can vary markedly to a blackbelt of the same style in another school/club.  In fact you can see marked variations in the same club between those with the same belt (although if it is a smaller school with a good teacher this is less the case).

I did Wing Chun for a couple years alongside my karate (out of personal interest in certain ideas such as centre line - but I genuinely put a lot of effort into my time and training there) and at this school there was the use of blackshirts and you got a certificate as you progressed, ie si lum tao "mastery" (ok, hardly mastery...) etc. While I only comment from a couple years experience in WC, from what I saw there is really no need to add belt ranks and on a "global" basis and I fail to see how this in itself would "unify" the nobel house of WC.  From my high school TKD days, that was a highly politicised style / "sport" : )  - just as polarised and political as WC is - and belts and uniform progression / gradings did nothing to allay this - and I really do not think this assists in the passing on and sharing of knowledge at all.  

Openess, disengagement of ego and inter-training between sifus and styles and allowing one's students to do the same will propogate the arts and the dissemination of the knowledge they have to offer (but given the emotions involved, the money/business perceived to be on the line I don't see this happening).


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## J W (May 30, 2013)

yak sao said:


> But we have structure. First SNT, then CK.........



I agree with this. We already have 6 "levels" in WC. Why the need to add colored belts or shirts?


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> Xue Sheng, thank you for your input. Unfortunately, I am not as learned of the Chinese martial arts history as you are and could not tell you what impact Chinese Duan had on the CMA house nor am naïve to believe that all the Wing Chun families, styles and systems will jump onboard to this idea. What I am saying is, if utilized properly, this can provide clear consistent progression of learning levels and can benefit the growth of the art. It can show affiliation and provide quality control/ oversight (QC). I recently retired after serving 30 years in the US Army, planned missions, had numerous deployments and unfortunately attended many memorial services but as a leader we always trained or soldiers to don't settle for status quo or "this is how it's always been done". Always look for ways to make it better and to give more than you take. That's all I'm trying to do and I welcome constructive criticism. When I started TKD in the mid 70's there were only 6 belts. Now there are 12-13 depending on the school you go to. A close friend of mine has a very successful martial arts school with a consistent 250+ students for the last 19 years and that's all he does. We both came from the same Moo Duk Kwon TKD background but both have expanded our knowledge into other arts. I questioned him on how they've changed from the old ways and how there are double the amount of belts now. I also expressed my concern about the quality of TKD each student reflected. He explained a hard reality that I know is true because I experienced it in the military. Society has become "less hungry" for martial arts and for most things that have a cost whether it be time, money or sweat. Many people are more "what's in it for me?" focused but still want to try. He said that he's adjusted teaching styles only giving the "old school" ways to those who show that they're hungry and show the potential and aptitude to learn. The others he teaches to their level pushing them to their abilities and provides confidence, physical exercise and classes to fit their 45-60min time block. The ones that stay for additional classes and are always seeking more, reap the benefits of the "old school student" (or old ways we're accustomed to) the others get what they put in but still benefit and are healtier and more productive citizens. As a leader my goal has always been to, by my example, inspire soldiers to set realistic goals, accomplish the mission (to include their mission in life), take personal responsibility for their actions, and always look for ways to improve yourself and your surroundings in spite of what others may say. I am merely trying my best to do that for my new found passion Applied Wing Chun Kung-Fu. Thank you again for your comments.~



I mean no offense and I do not want to discourage you but you really need to learn a lot more about the culture and the history and the politics of the style. These are not soldiers and they do not have to listen nor do many want to, they don't go on missions, they teach Wing Chun and to some it is not a job, it is not a mission it is thier life.

It has been my experience that once you get an affiliation of an organization or a board that oversees such thing&#8230; it goes bad rather quickly and things get watered down and pushed to the side and the focus changes from the art&#8230;.to the rank&#8230; and that is not a good thing in my opinion in Chinese martial arts.

The best advice I can give you is learn about Wing Chun, not the forms or that applications but the art, the history of the art, the culture it comes from and the politics and then think about the belt ranks and standardization. 

You are not the first and you will not be the last, there is a 1st generation Ip Man student in Hong Kong who believes there needs to be a standardization of all Wing Chun styles and curriculums. There are also those of that generation who do not... I do not think Ip Chun does or Ip Ching but I am not sure there... but with that said, they do not teach the same way either

My final words here are to &#8220;Applied Wing Chun&#8221;&#8230;.. all Wing Chun is applied, or at least that was my experience


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> I agree. It will be a challenge. I don't know if the WC world is willing to "share their knowledge" but someone has to start the dialogue. Why not me? I'm used to dealing with people with a "CAN'T DO" , "SHOUDN'T DO" or "WHY DO?" attitude. I will do the best that I can do and hopefully inspire someone else to do more than I. Thank you again for the dialogue and constructive input. I look forward to more input from you.




You are not the first, probably wont be the last, but who knows, you may succeed, I don't believe you will but then I could be entirely wrong and what does the opinion of a nameless faceless person on a web page matter anyway.

You likely have the western side of things understood and what you propose may fly with that side of the equation, not all of them but more than the eastern side.

You have to understand that in this, particularly dealing with the older Chinese teachers, your desire to do this does not produce in them a desire to respond, care or take any of this seriously. They do not have a can't do, shouldn't do, or why do attitude. They already know why and I doubt they will change. But they have this great way of doing things that I am not sure you are use to. The "go ahead and do" or the go away and then you happily leave believing in your success or you just leave and they go on doing what they have always done because it works. They simply do not take you seriously and see no reason to discuss debate or argue with you at all or for that matter talk to you. I have seen this myself in a few of those old school guys, I saw one completely deny any knowledge of martial arts when I knew he had been at it for around 50 years. I have even asked them why they said what they said or did what they did and it comes down to they simply saw that as the best way to make someone go away.

Basically you are going there looking for a fight and they will not give you one

I wish you luck


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> You are not the first and you will not be the last, there is a 1st generation Ip Man student in Hong Kong who believes there needs to be a standardization of all Wing Chun styles and curriculums. There are also those of that generation who do not... I do not think Ip Chun does or Ip Ching but I am not sure there... but with that said, they do not teach the same way either



Not to mention the fact that not all Wing Chun comes thru Ip Man.  There are other lineages that trace back to pre-Ip Man, and do not go thru Ip Man at all.  They are somewhat different and distinct, but still legitimate Wing Chun.  But they are well established and separate.

Try bringing all these people under one umbrella and getting them to agree to an overall standardization, with ranks, etc...  Well, I've got 5,000 cats roaming on the open prairie that I'm trying to herd in one direction, just me and my trusty horse...


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## geezer (May 30, 2013)

Our organization already has a well developed and standardized instructional curriculum, complete with a system of ranking and colored shirts: white, gray, black, and black with red trim for instructors. Oh and then for Master Level (for the very few that ever reach it) it's red with black trim. Its a good solid approach, but I can't imagine why other WC/VT/WT groups who teach substantially different material would want to adopt our system, and we would never adopt theirs. Different clans of Wing Chun vary significantly in both technique and theory ...even within the same lineage. 

I believe _MA Lover 1963_ has good intentions, but still has a bit to learn about the fractious world of WC where high level "masters" and "grandmasters" frequently refer to each other as "idiots"...even in public!


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## jks9199 (May 30, 2013)

Perhaps it's just my outside seat... but it seems like MA Lover has a solution that's in search of a problem.  It seems to me that, within each organization, Wing Chun schools have their systems of determining and signifying status that work for them.  Across organizations, just like the rest of the martial arts world, it's hard to make a meaningful comparison based solely on signifiers like t-shirts.  Think about the differences in black belts (or any other ranking...) across TKD organizations...  It's not going to be much better, unless you can somehow unify ALL of the Wing Chun organizations.  I think you have a better chance of creating world peace and bringing Christianity (Catholic, Protestant, and all others), Judaism, and Islam into harmony.


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## Argus (May 30, 2013)

I'm afraid I'm a bit of an anarchist, and must throw my hat in the ring for disunity.


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## mograph (May 30, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I've got 5,000 cats roaming on the open prairie that I'm trying to herd in one direction, just me and my trusty horse...


Speaking of herding cats ...


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## Instructor (May 31, 2013)

I was inspired by Wing Chun's approach to belts that I run my local Hapkido program in that fashion.  We issue certificates to measure progress but rarely ever wear belts in practice.  On the occasions when a certain technique requires me to wear my dobak top I might tie mine on to keep the top closed that's about it.  i personally think ranking systems exist to motivate a generation with no attention span.


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## Dummy (May 31, 2013)

Belts and ranks add a sense of limitation and i am against it. Bruce lee had a sign hung up in the place where he and a handful of his students used to train it said " Having no way as the way , having no limitation as limitation "( rough translation).


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 31, 2013)

Instructor said:


> I was inspired by Wing Chun's approach to belts that I run my local Hapkido program in that fashion.  We issue certificates to measure progress but rarely ever wear belts in practice.  On the occasions when a certain technique requires me to wear my dobak top I might tie mine on to keep the top closed that's about it.  i personally think ranking systems exist to motivate a generation with no attention span.


 I agree.  The attention span of this generation is technology driven.  "microwave mentality", and wanting it all RIGHT NOW is beat of the drum that many of today's society march to. Thanks for the input.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 31, 2013)

To everyone who has been replying to my thread. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!! Your opinions, insight, professionalism and "boots to the head"  have truly been a blessing.  I hear all of you and am "listening" as well.   I was blessed to have been taught by many great teachers and leaders. Many of them reinforced the same mindset when it came to training or teaching.  "There are no bad students, just complacent teachers."  Even though I didn't (and still don't) fully agree with that, there is some truth to it.   We adjust our training and use whatever means necessary to teach, motivate and inspire them understand the task, accomplish the task and to disseminate it to the lowest level to the best of THEIR ability.  We understand that we can train 200 students with the same equipment, same instructors and same parameters and get different levels of quality, commitment and even understanding but all are moving forward and we can "adjust fire" as we go.  Many people today just quit!  In my generation the phrase was, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going!" now it's , "If the going gets tough, just quit.  Someone else will take care of it."  This not just about Wing Chun. It's about an attitude and using a tool (or many tools) to try to inspire learning. Please, I want everyone to know that I have no illusion that the entire WC world will get on board with this, start singing "We are the world" and have a "group hug" while putting on t-shirts. D)  Nor was that my intent.  I was just looking for something that I felt would be a useful tool for the system and to add in the teaching process.  Some may think this is "business or money" driven which I could see where some would think that however, my Sifu does not charge fees nor do I. I'm currently teaching at a close friend's school (under the covering of my Sifu) and I do not receive a dime.  As a matter of fact, I have paid out over a thousand dollars research and development of this idea and have given away many of the items to students just as an encouragement to them and to inspire them to continue in their training.  Will at some point I receive money for lessons?  Maybe...but that's not my heart.  That's not what's driving me. Teaching and inspiring others to learn, to be the best they can and to positively affect their families, environment and communities is what's most important to me.  When I was in my teens and my drive was to "get a black belt" my instructor used to always tell me, "It's not what's around your waist, it's what's in your heart that matters." I heard him but didn't listen until I had to spare some visiting black belts at our school.  I was only a senior green belt at the time which back then meant I had been studying for almost 2 years.  I was scared but my instructor said "You have been trained. Do what you know."  To my amazement I easily defeated each of them in separate rounds.  After they had left my instructor said, "See I told you that belts don't matter".  I then refused belt test for the next two years but prior to me leaving for college he made me accept my red belt.  I agree with many of you but what I'm trying to say is that I had to learn that lesson for myself and make that decision but the structure was there so I could see the path to start on.  I am grateful to all of you that we can discuss topics and even "agree to  disagree" yet be respectful and professional.  Thank you all again for your input.  Please continue and I will answer as much and as often as I can.  If any of you are ever in the Va. Beach, VA area you are welcome to stop in and share your knowledge. (or just share a burger )


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## Tony Dismukes (May 31, 2013)

Okay, now I'm curious.  How did you spend over $1000 dollars coming up with the idea of using colored t-shirts to indicate rank?


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## Argus (May 31, 2013)

While your intentions seem noble, I think you should rather appreciate the disunified and uncodified system that exists in traditional martial arts.

Do you really want to see Wing Chun become like modern Japanese sportive arts, such as Karate?

Do you think that we need to have ranks and gradings to motivate people?

Do you think that Wing Chun needs to become a regulated, controlled system with grading, curricula, rank, and a governing body?

I have to disagree on all levels. The beauty is that we don't have any of that. We learn the art for the sake of the art itself; not for sport or competition, and not to get grades or ranks. The art is rich, diverse, and earnest by virtue that it is not a governed and codified system. Of course you will have varying degrees of quality with this approach, and lineages will differ in what they perceive to be the right way of doing things, but this is the reality of any living, breathing martial art.

I fear the day when such an approach to martial arts no longer exists. I don't want grades and ranks. I don't want to learn to perform forms for an audience, or learn to fight in a competitive sparring or chisau context. And I don't want to see a governing body become mandatory to "authenticate" a system. And once these things become wide spread, they're almost impossible to escape.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 31, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, now I'm curious.  How did you spend over $1000 dollars coming up with the idea of using colored t-shirts to indicate rank?



Sending off template for embroidery, silk screening, patch prototypes, shirt purchases shipping etc. but that's not my point.  My point was that I'm not in this for the money.  "Leave more than you take." was the philosophy I was referring to.  Thanks~


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 31, 2013)

Argus said:


> While your intentions seem noble, I think you should rather appreciate the disunified and uncodified system that exists in traditional martial arts.
> 
> Do you really want to see Wing Chun become like modern Japanese sportive arts, such as Karate?
> 
> ...



Argus,  Thanks you for your response.  I'll try to answer in sequence.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            *Do you really want to see Wing Chun become like modern Japanese sportive arts, such as Karate? *-    No, that's not nor has been my desire.  My Sifu told me that WC was not designed or intended to be used against Wing Chun.  However, I recently saw where they had a World Wing Chun tournament in China last year with the Ip family sponsoring. I wouldn't mind going to see the different WC styles and visit China but at this point in my life I personally don't care about the competition aspect but if someone else does, more power to them. It looked like they had a large turn-out.  

*Do you think that we need to have ranks and gradings to motivate people?*      That depends on the person.  Some people are goal driven, others are not.  I just think it will provide a clear progression within the style for those to follow.  I know, and agree, that this is not for everyone.  I just built it based upon what I saw and how I thought it might be used to help teach students and provide structure.

 Do you think that Wing Chun needs to become a regulated, controlled system with grading, curricula, rank, and a governing body? There are "PROS" and "CONS" for both arguments.  I would love to believe that the WC/VT world would agree to a senior governing authority (like Kukiwon is for TKD) however, the reality is like some many of my constituents have so graciously pointed out.  "That'll be like herding cats" or "Nailing Jello to a tree."  To answer your question: "does it NEED to be regulated globally?" In my opinion....no.  Thanks again for the input.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 31, 2013)

J W said:


> I agree with this. We already have 6 "levels" in WC. Why the need to add colored belts or shirts?



We currently have no levels.  Just student and Sifu.  Thanks~


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 31, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, now I'm curious.  How did you spend over $1000 dollars coming up with the idea of using colored t-shirts to indicate rank?


 Sending off and paying templates for embroidery, silk screening, patch prototypes, shirt purchases shipping etc. but that's not my point.  My point was that I'm not in this for the money.  "Leave more than you take." was the philosophy I was referring to.  Thanks~


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## StormShadow (May 31, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> I agree.  The attention span of this generation is technology driven.  "microwave mentality", and wanting it all RIGHT NOW is beat of the drum that many of today's society march to. Thanks for the input.



One thing I must say is I appreciate your ability to take criticism.  An aspect of someone applying wing chun philosophy's to their life.


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## J W (May 31, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> We currently have no levels.  Just student and Sifu.  Thanks~



I was just referring to the forms. They are taught in the same sequence by most families of WC, so that's probably the closest you'll get to a common rank structure.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 31, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> One thing I must say is I appreciate your ability to take criticism.  An aspect of someone applying wing chun philosophy's to their life.


 Thanks SS. I love receiving feedback to see what others may think.  The good and the not so good.  Most of the CMA people I have encountered thus far on this forum have been straight forward, provided input and or feed back and for the most part, true professionals.  I "eat the meat and spit out the bones" and don't take it personally unless some one makes it personal.   I was once told, "If you don't want to know what I think, don't ask me."  I have asked and I appreciate the feed back.  And about "applying Wing Chun to my life.." it's more like applying my faith in life to my Wing Chun but thank you for the compliment and the post.


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## SamAbb (Aug 27, 2013)

The question posed by this thread is impossible. Wing Chun is a conceptual art that has many different interpretations and expressions.

Train hard. Introduce yourself by your experience in *years training* - simple.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (Aug 28, 2013)

SamAb, Thanks for your input.  We've implemented it in our school locally and it has had a real positive affect amongst the students.  I thought it would have been more of a motivator for the younger group but surprisingly the adults have really stepped up their game.  Is it the full-proof answer to all schools and situations?  I think not however, it is a tool that is working and giving the students a little more pride in how they do what they do.  We also implemented certificates with each promotion which have also been well received.  I recently drafted a proposed certificate for when a person reaches "Sifu" level they'll receive a certification similar to that of a "1st Degree Black belt" in traditional styles but not a belt.  This would allow a Wing Chun Sifu to teach on government/ military installations, college/universities and other venues where a written certification is a requirement to teach.  Again, not for everyone but it's working for us.  Thanks again for the input.~MAL1963


SamAbb said:


> The question posed by this thread is impossible. Wing Chun is a conceptual art that has many different interpretations and expressions.
> 
> Train hard. Introduce yourself by your experience in *years training* - simple.


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## SamAbb (Aug 29, 2013)

Nice one. Is everyone aware though that there is no universal system in Wing Chun. Are they aware that the grades, ranks, titles and certs only mean something within your school only? Be careful of that. Make people aware of it.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (Aug 29, 2013)

SamAbb said:


> Nice one. Is everyone aware though that there is no universal system in Wing Chun. Are they aware that the grades, ranks, titles and certs only mean something within your school only? Be careful of that. Make people aware of it.



Good evening SamAbb.  Yes, the students within our school are aware that most other Wing Chun schools do not have ranks, certs etc.  Thanks for your input and concern.


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## wtxs (Aug 30, 2013)

Martial Arts Lover1963 said:


> *Do you think that we need to have ranks and gradings to motivate people?*      That depends on the person.  Some people are goal driven, others are not.  I just think it will provide a clear progression within the style for those to follow.  I know, and agree, that this is not for everyone.  I just built it based upon what I saw and how I thought it might be used to help teach students and provide structure.



Wing Chun Kung Fu: To establish what defines Kung Fu ... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term)

The main goal of any individual in learning MA is to attain the highest skill level possible and the ultimate ability of effectively defend self and love ones.  Having said that, if this is not enough of an motive, no amount of belts, strips, bells and whistles are going to have any meaningful impact.  Accepting " it's good enough for me" only serves to short changing themselves and money unwisely spent ... but then, some are satisfied with just that level of accomplishment.

I "pass on" what I know freely.  From the onset, my people are informed they ARE expected to put forth the time and efforts in and out of class, and if they are not at least reasonably progressing along with the rest, and yes the are fast learner, maybe this commitment is not for them ... meaning, find another baby sitter. JMHO


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