# Firearms training?



## AlecBeach (Jun 10, 2018)

Would you guys know how to disarm someone with a gun?


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## CB Jones (Jun 10, 2018)

Yes....shoot them probably multiple times until they no longer a threat.


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## Danny T (Jun 10, 2018)

Yes. I know several.
Depending the situation, Distance, positioning, and other factors disarms can be an option.
Not a good one but can be done.
You've got to get close enough to be able to control the weapon while not being in the line of fire. A lot easier said than done. You've got to move a lot longer distance than the bad guy only needing to move a finger 1/2 of an inch.
What about if the bad guy never gets close enough for that to be an option?


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## CB Jones (Jun 10, 2018)

Also if you fail at the disarm....


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 11, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Also if you fail at the disarm....



Good point.

Like any technique, one must practice, practice, practice.  Then practice some more.  That sounds tedious, and can be.  But that should get as much or more practice as any other technique one practices from ones art.

And also, not a thing that I think even most police departments do (and harder for a school), you should have a blank round in a plugged barrel to get used to the fact that the weapon will likely fire and make a lot of noise as well as kick a bit.

EDIT:  By the way AlecBeach, welcome to MT.  You might want to go to the Meet and Greet sub-forum and tell us a little about yourself.


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## Danny T (Jun 11, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Also if you fail at the disarm....


Yeah...goes to not being a "good option"


oftheherd1 said:


> And also, not a thing that I think even most police departments do (and harder for a school), you should have a blank round in a plugged barrel to get used to the fact that the weapon will likely fire and make a lot of noise as well as kick a bit.


Be very careful with blank rounds and make certain you use a plugged barrel.
Most blank rounds use a plastic or wax type of wad that can seriously hurt and even kill.
Use a Battlefield or Live Fire specific type of blank designed for live fire training. These rounds have no wadding to be projected from the muzzle. However, most are designed to be used *18 inches* from the muzzle.
As to kick back when grabbing a firearm it is something to be aware of but there is very little that will be transmitted into you. Loud noise, yes. Powerful kick back...very little, most is directed toward the person pulling the trigger. On a semi auto pistol I can hold the slide between my thumb and  index finger with ease much less using the whole hand.

It's not the noise or kick back to be concerned with but where is the muzzle pointed.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 11, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Yeah...goes to not being a "good option"
> 
> Be very careful with blank rounds and make certain you use a plugged barrel.
> Most blank rounds use a plastic or wax type of wad that can seriously hurt and even kill.
> ...



Bolded;  Good for you.  But I suspect most people could not, both because of the kickback (depending on the weapon off course) and the accompanying noise, along with the stress and desire to escape.  Of course, even without practicing with the noise, a lot of practice will make you do it right, noise, kickback or whatever.

But I do agree with care when using blanks.  Back in the day, when I was in the infantry, as I recall, our blanks had plastic or wax or something.  Now the grenade launcher round was crimped.


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## Danny T (Jun 11, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Bolded;  Good for you.  But I suspect most people could not, both because of the kickback (depending on the weapon off course) and the accompanying noise, along with the stress and desire to escape.  Of course, even without practicing with the noise, a lot of practice will make you do it right, noise, kickback or whatever.
> 
> But I do agree with care when using blanks.  Back in the day, when I was in the infantry, as I recall, our blanks had plastic or wax or something.  Now the grenade launcher round as crimped.


As with most all things 'training' is a must.
And I believe even with a little specific training most can perform such an action.
Most of the people who are in the military are average normal people who receive only a few hours of firearms training could perform the actions we are discussing with a few minutes of training.
Now I'm not advocating every one to go out and train for such because I feel there are other options that are going to be safer and of higher percentage to even get to do.


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## WaterGal (Jun 11, 2018)

I did some handgun training at a range once that had mock firearms with an air cartridge in them that created a loud noise and kickback. I don't know where you'd get something like that, but I'm sure it would be much, much safer than a real gun with a blank.


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## Buka (Jun 11, 2018)

AlecBeach said:


> Would you guys know how to disarm someone with a gun?



Yes.

And welcome to MartialTalk, Alec.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 11, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> I did some handgun training at a range once that had mock firearms with an air cartridge in them that created a loud noise and kickback. I don't know where you'd get something like that, but I'm sure it would be much, much safer than a real gun with a blank.



Virtra weapons do that but I don't know if they sell the mods separately.  You have to have your own weapon (real) to modify, well I guess they would sell you weapons too for a higher price.  They then sell a virtual projected environment that is computer controlled.  Works pretty well.  But the whole setup is a little costly.


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2018)

AlecBeach said:


> Would you guys know how to disarm someone with a gun?



We send in the RAF. 

Welcome to MT, do you want to introduce yourself over in the Meet and Greet section?


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## pdg (Jun 11, 2018)

AlecBeach said:


> Would you guys know how to disarm someone with a gun?



Put your finger over the end of the barrel so the bullet can't get out.

Or point over their shoulder and say "look out", then flip the safety on while they're distracted.

In either case, they'll be really confused and probably just hand the gun over because they'll think it's broken.


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## pdg (Jun 11, 2018)

Danny T said:


> On a semi auto pistol I can hold the slide between my thumb and index finger with ease much less using the whole hand.





oftheherd1 said:


> Good for you. But I suspect most people could not, both because of the kickback (depending on the weapon off course) and the accompanying noise,



On the majority of small to medium calibre gas operated semi auto pistols the biggest contributor to recoil (or kickback if you will) is the mass of the slide moving.

The force exerted by the gas pressure to make the slide move really isn't that large, and I'd say that if you're capable of lifting a pint to drink it you'd have sufficient hand strength to stop the slide, well, sliding.

Note, that doesn't stop the gun firing that time, but it stops it self loading another round.

Probably not a high value move, but if you can grab and redirect that first shot (and hold the slide with that grab) you've effectively just turned a firearm into a knuckle duster.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> On the majority of small to medium calibre gas operated semi auto pistols the biggest contributor to recoil (or kickback if you will) is the mass of the slide moving.
> 
> The force exerted by the gas pressure to make the slide move really isn't that large, and I'd say that if you're capable of lifting a pint to drink it you'd have sufficient hand strength to stop the slide, well, sliding.
> 
> ...



Don't a lot of (edit) techniques incorporate that into the move; directing the muzzle away from you as you seek control of the weapon?


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## pdg (Jun 12, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Don't a lot of (edit) techniques incorporate that into the move; directing the muzzle away from you as you seek control of the weapon?



I can't speak for very many of the techniques, but the ones I've seen don't seem to put much weight on the grab part - it appears to be more redirect and control the arm to then control the weapon.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> I can't speak for very many of the techniques, but the ones I've seen don't seem to put much weight on the grab part - it appears to be more redirect and control the arm to then control the weapon.



Wow, I didn't know that.  I would always want to control the weapon first so that if possible, it is never pointed at me during the rest of the technique.  Wow.


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## pdg (Jun 12, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Wow, I didn't know that.  I would always want to control the weapon first so that if possible, it is never pointed at me during the rest of the technique.  Wow.



Like I say, I have very little experience in how the techniques are 'usually' taught - I can only go off the few times I've personally seen someone demonstrate in a civilian capacity (and the comedy of YouTube)...

In those instances it was to deflect the arm, wrap it, then turn around to use both your hands to unhook their fingers from the weapon (no mention of what about their other arm and the fact you're stood there with your back to their front).

It was basically exactly what they also showed for a knife disarm...

Of course, they had a 100% success rate.


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## Buka (Jun 12, 2018)

To me, disarms are far easier against a firearm than against a knife. You may have a different opinion, which is fine. I'm still struggling with knife disarms after a bajillion years.

With firearms, I disagree with concentrating on controlling the arm as opposed to the weapon. If you're controlling the arm the handgun can still go off, and if there's other people around that's a big problem. Of course, the same holds true when controlling the weapon, people around you are always in danger.

Firearms are long range weapons. If one is right close to you and you haven't yet been shot, it's kind of an invitation. It's saying, "please, oh please, take this and shove it up my ...."

There are of course caveats. If you are learning disarms from Martial Arts teachers who are not experienced with firearms it's like learning to fly a plane with someone who's never even been in a simulator. So be really careful what you believe.

And learn the mantra - "blade the body, blade the body, blade the body."


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 13, 2018)

pdg said:


> Like I say, I have very little experience in how the techniques are 'usually' taught - I can only go off the few times I've personally seen someone demonstrate in a civilian capacity (and the comedy of YouTube)...
> 
> In those instances it was to deflect the arm, wrap it, then turn around to use both your hands to unhook their fingers from the weapon (no mention of what about their other arm and the fact you're stood there with your back to their front).
> 
> ...



I agree with you and @Buka.  I would say the preference is that the firearm is not pointing towards anyone.  That may not always work and you have to decide if you are going to take a bullet yourself or hope for a quick different opportunity.  Never any guarantee when defending against weapons.  Speed and accuracy of movement is paramount.  If you are not faster than your opponent, or not more accurate, you may well be in trouble.

Also, the way I was taught was not exactly to control the arm against a knife.  The first concern was the knife so as not to be injured by it.  We might use a wrist grab and use it to stick the knife in our attacker, or block movement of the arm with a sudo strike while simultaneously grabbing the wrist for an arm lock.  But always the first consideration was not being cut or stuck with the knife.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 13, 2018)

pdg said:


> On the majority of small to medium calibre gas operated semi auto pistols the biggest contributor to recoil (or kickback if you will) is the mass of the slide moving.
> 
> The force exerted by the gas pressure to make the slide move really isn't that large, and I'd say that if you're capable of lifting a pint to drink it you'd have sufficient hand strength to stop the slide, well, sliding.
> 
> ...



Let me pick a nit (you probably know that is what nitpickers do; pick nits ).  Gas operated weapons let a small amount of the gas to be diverted out of the barrel to a piston head to move the bolt backwards.  Most simi or auto pistols I am aware of use blow back to move the slide back.

But I get your point.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 13, 2018)

how do i disarm someone with a gun?   offer them a Klondike Bar in exchange for the gun.....works every time.


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## pdg (Jun 13, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Let me pick a nit (you probably know that is what nitpickers do; pick nits ).  Gas operated weapons let a small amount of the gas to be diverted out of the barrel to a piston head to move the bolt backwards.  Most simi or auto pistols I am aware of use blow back to move the slide back.
> 
> But I get your point.



Yes, fair distinction on something I worded badly...

It's still relatively easy to stop it chambering another round though.


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## Tez3 (Jun 13, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Let me pick a nit (you probably know that is what nitpickers do; pick nits ).




British schools years back used to have nurses to check children's hair for nits, getting off lessons for 'Nitty Nora' to check your head was great fun...………...


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## pdg (Jun 13, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> British schools years back used to have nurses to check children's hair for nits, getting off lessons for 'Nitty Nora' to check your head was great fun...………...



And they had a special comb too.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 13, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> British schools years back used to have nurses to check children's hair for nits, getting off lessons for 'Nitty Nora' to check your head was great fun...………...



When I was a kid we used to accuse other kids of having cooties.

A quick google of the term:

The earliest recorded uses of the term in English are by British soldiers during the First World War to refer to lice that proliferated in battlefield trenches.

The lice of the First World War trenches nicknamed "cooties" were also known as "arithmetic bugs" because "they added to our troubles, subtracted from our pleasures, divided our attention, and multiplied like hell


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 13, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> how do i disarm someone with a gun?   offer them a Klondike Bar in exchange for the gun.....works every time.



That would make an interesting commercial.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 13, 2018)

pdg said:


> And they had a special comb too.



Those still exist; really close teeth to catch not only the nits/cooties, but their eggs.

Who is the dummy who misdirected this from gun defense to nits?  

Oh, me.


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## jks9199 (Jun 13, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> And also, not a thing that I think even most police departments do (and harder for a school), you should have a blank round in a plugged barrel to get used to the fact that the weapon will likely fire and make a lot of noise as well as kick a bit..


No.

Just plain NO.

Even with the best preparation, there's always a possibly of something being sent out of the barrel.  That's what killed Brandon Lee... and others have been hurt.  Use marking cartridges, use Airsoft-type guns, etc... but make sure that whatever you use is designed to be used for training and then use appropriate safety measures.  If you want to get used to the sound (auditory exclusion during an actual gun disarm will probably negate any issues...), use blanks fired in the vicinity but pointed in a safe direction.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 14, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> No.
> 
> Just plain NO.
> 
> Even with the best preparation, there's always a possibly of something being sent out of the barrel.  That's what killed Brandon Lee... and others have been hurt.  Use marking cartridges, use Airsoft-type guns, etc... but make sure that whatever you use is designed to be used for training and then use appropriate safety measures.  If you want to get used to the sound (auditory exclusion during an actual gun disarm will probably negate any issues...), use blanks fired in the vicinity but pointed in a safe direction.



Sounds like all good ideas.  Thanks.


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## AlecBeach (Jun 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> On the majority of small to medium calibre gas operated semi auto pistols the biggest contributor to recoil (or kickback if you will) is the mass of the slide moving.
> 
> The force exerted by the gas pressure to make the slide move really isn't that large, and I'd say that if you're capable of lifting a pint to drink it you'd have sufficient hand strength to stop the slide, well, sliding.
> 
> ...


Only problem is the first round firing


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## pdg (Jun 29, 2018)

AlecBeach said:


> Only problem is the first round firing



Hence the second two paragraphs and the caveat of redirecting that first shot...


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## AlecBeach (Jun 30, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Yes....shoot them probably multiple times until they no longer a threat.


Good idea


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## AlecBeach (Jun 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> Put your finger over the end of the barrel so the bullet can't get out.
> 
> Or point over their shoulder and say "look out", then flip the safety on while they're distracted.
> 
> In either case, they'll be really confused and probably just hand the gun over because they'll think it's broken.


Damn... I should have known...


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## APOModern (Jul 1, 2018)

I wonder if there is a specific practice or study dedicated to this technique...


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## AlecBeach (Jul 7, 2018)

APOModern said:


> I wonder if there is a specific practice or study dedicated to this technique...


I imagine there is.. I see videos all the time of people practicing with dummy guns in a Do-Jo environment. Maybe classes around me in Cali...


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## APOModern (Jul 7, 2018)

AlecBeach said:


> I imagine there is.. I see videos all the time of people practicing with dummy guns in a Do-Jo environment. Maybe classes around me in Cali...



I'd imagine it'd be tough to find that kind of stuff in your state, but maybe look around for a class or establishment for that


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

Yes, but not getting shot in the process wasn't excluded in the criteria mentioned!


Since it was brought up, simunition rounds work well for this type of training, i believe air soft might as well but i dont know if they can go out of battery.  This is for live training for a lack of better words, if you need to see if you will get shot or not while training and not just doing disarms.


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## APOModern (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Yes, but not getting shot in the process wasn't excluded in the criteria mentioned!
> 
> 
> Since it was brought up, simunition rounds work well for this type of training, i believe air soft might as well but i dont know if they can go out of battery.  This is for live training for a lack of better words, if you need to see if you will get shot or not while training and not just doing disarms.



Personally, I do airsoft for fun but have done it for force on force training with a company in my area near me a handful of times.  It's a good tool for getting someone comfortable with the physical aspect of being near a firearm without "real" danger.  Pretty cheap too.


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## AlecBeach (Jul 15, 2018)

APOModern said:


> Personally, I do airsoft for fun but have done it for force on force training with a company in my area near me a handful of times.  It's a good tool for getting someone comfortable with the physical aspect of being near a firearm without "real" danger.  Pretty cheap too.



Aren't those things bulky and toyish like the paintball stuff though?


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## jks9199 (Jul 15, 2018)

Airsoft and similar products resemble the real guns (at least in appearance and size).


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## APOModern (Jul 15, 2018)

AlecBeach said:


> Aren't those things bulky and toyish like the paintball stuff though?


Have to agree with the above post, some of them are very realistic.  I agree they can be toyish, but I have had some replicas that are 1:1 scale externally and have similar weight and feel.  For example, there are licensed glock replicas which resemble the 9mm handgun near perfectly, making them great tools for training disarming beyond just the blue dummy firearms.


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## AlecBeach (Jul 15, 2018)

APOModern said:


> Have to agree with the above post, some of them are very realistic.  I agree they can be toyish, but I have had some replicas that are 1:1 scale externally and have similar weight and feel.  For example, there are licensed glock replicas which resemble the 9mm handgun near perfectly, making them great tools for training disarming beyond just the blue dummy firearms.



That sounds pretty useful, where would you get that kinda thing?  Seems pretty pricey for just training if it's anything like a real firearm


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## APOModern (Jul 15, 2018)

AlecBeach said:


> That sounds pretty useful, where would you get that kinda thing?  Seems pretty pricey for just training if it's anything like a real firearm


You'd be surprised!  I have an Airsoft Glock 17 that's 1:1 scale and resemble the weight, feel, and look of a real one very almost identically that I've used for training.  Beats a brick of plastic and while it could be cheaper, I think it's a pretty solid investment for under 200 bucks Airsoft Glock Pistol - Modern Airsoft the Elite Force Airsoft Retail


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 15, 2018)

AlecBeach said:


> That sounds pretty useful, where would you get that kinda thing?  Seems pretty pricey for just training if it's anything like a real firearm



Just check your local laws as there are some weird laws for them in some places.


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## Danny T (Jul 16, 2018)

Some may find this interesting.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 16, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Some may find this interesting.



Just proves you need to  pressure test it like you do with knife disarms, surprised not more people get simunitions or at least air soft pistols to try them out.


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## Danny T (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> Just proves you need to  pressure test it like you do with knife disarms, surprised not more people get simunitions or at least air soft pistols to try them out.


Couple of things with the video.
1. The gunman knew the other guy was going to attempt the disarm. Being prepared mentally for that is a big factor.
2. There was no attempt to distract or avert the gunman's attention.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 16, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Couple of things with the video.
> 1. The gunman knew the other guy was going to attempt the disarm. Being prepared mentally for that is a big factor.
> 2. There was no attempt to distract or avert the gunman's attention.



And the gunman was also point blank range one handed grip.  

I just remembered a good point made in another video. Basically, its anecdotal on gun disarms being useful if there is a non violent issue with them.  A example he gave was him doing a shooting class and someone getting annoyed and storming off so he needed to remove the firearm from their persons, that sort of thing.  Just another viewpoint to take which i don't think it commonly thought about.    If i can find it i will link it either on this post or below.


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## paulschoon (Jul 22, 2018)

I think it really comes down to how well do you know what your doing how many hours have you practices for this and your ability to adapt to your soundings.


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