# Category Completion



## bdparsons (Dec 8, 2005)

Category Completion seems to be one of the most widely used and least explained terms in all of EPAK. What is your definition of this term, how does it apply to how you use/approach the art and can you give specific examples where it is demonstrated? 

Respects, 
Bill Parsons 
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## MJS (May 30, 2007)

Bumping this up for discussion!!  Any thoughts on this topic?


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## ChadWarner (Jun 2, 2007)

bdparsons said:


> Category Completion seems to be one of the most widely used and least explained terms in all of EPAK. What is your definition of this term, how does it apply to how you use/approach the art and can you give specific examples where it is demonstrated?
> 
> Respects,
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


 
This is one Senior's approach.  Not mine, not my branch.  So it is not really widely used, if a lot of people from that group post I can see how one might get that impression.  I understand the use of the word and I disagree with it.   The exercises used to describe the "concept" are better suited to strip mall karate studios that waste time on nonscense.  Commercial biased kenpo cats and sub cats into oblivion.  It is a waste of time unless you spend the time to figure out it is a waste of time and why.   

Why do I feel it is a time asassin?  1) doesn't create more power (2) doesn't help to pick the optimum angle of excution/retraction (3) doesn't increase mental/pysical/perceptual speed (4) Does't aid in balance/recovery (5) doesn't aid in target creation.  If your going to tear movements apart, take out components and examine movement in them and begin refinement...Well not smart to tell someone a category is completed until you personaly have completed it and are prepared to back up the intel with notation.  For me this not something useful.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 2, 2007)

Technique relationships are where it is used. As long as it is not used as a "crutch" I have no use for it. If you want to get down and technical about the relationships, defining the category & thoroughly giving examples then I have no problems with it. 
If in class a question is asked about what is this move, movement related to in another tech. or on the opposite side, and you have an answer that's cool. If you blurt out Cat. Comp. otherwise I think I might throw up on you.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2007)

ChadWarner said:


> This is one Senior's approach. Not mine, not my branch. So it is not really widely used, if a lot of people from that group post I can see how one might get that impression. I understand the use of the word and I disagree with it. The exercises used to describe the "concept" are better suited to strip mall karate studios that waste time on nonscense. Commercial biased kenpo cats and sub cats into oblivion. It is a waste of time unless you spend the time to figure out it is a waste of time and why.
> 
> Why do I feel it is a time asassin? 1) doesn't create more power (2) doesn't help to pick the optimum angle of excution/retraction (3) doesn't increase mental/pysical/perceptual speed (4) Does't aid in balance/recovery (5) doesn't aid in target creation. If your going to tear movements apart, take out components and examine movement in them and begin refinement...Well not smart to tell someone a category is completed until you personaly have completed it and are prepared to back up the intel with notation. For me this not something useful.


I wouldn't say assasin, but you do have to devote percentages of time equal to the importance you feel it has. I love a quote from Mr. Parker, "Board Breaking will help your art about 2%; therefore, you should devote 2% of your practice time on board breaking,".
Sean


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## ChadWarner (Jun 3, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I wouldn't say assasin,


 
I would and I did

"I love a quote from Mr. Parker, "Board Breaking will help your art about 2%; therefore, you should devote 2% of your practice time on board breaking,".

As far as I know Mr. Parker abandoned board breaking-  

 I don't believe in 2 percenting anything.  Don't leave holes in your game.  That requires a lot more than 2 percent.


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## jazkiljok (Jun 3, 2007)

bdparsons said:


> Category Completion seems to be one of the most widely used and least explained terms in all of EPAK. What is your definition of this term, how does it apply to how you use/approach the art and can you give specific examples where it is demonstrated?
> 
> Respects,
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute



i would say any term that is widely used but as yet to have been defined is a highly suspect one and best ignored. we don't need to make meaning out of muck.

if the person who coined it wants to define it and explain its practical use in learning how not to get your behind kicked-- only then i think you can get a useful discussion.

peace.


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## Doc (Jun 4, 2007)

ChadWarner said:


> This is one Senior's approach.  Not mine, not my branch.  So it is not really widely used, if a lot of people from that group post I can see how one might get that impression.  I understand the use of the word and I disagree with it.   The exercises used to describe the "concept" are better suited to strip mall karate studios that waste time on nonscense.  Commercial biased kenpo cats and sub cats into oblivion.  It is a waste of time unless you spend the time to figure out it is a waste of time and why.
> 
> Why do I feel it is a time asassin?  1) doesn't create more power (2) doesn't help to pick the optimum angle of excution/retraction (3) doesn't increase mental/pysical/perceptual speed (4) Does't aid in balance/recovery (5) doesn't aid in target creation.  If your going to tear movements apart, take out components and examine movement in them and begin refinement...Well not smart to tell someone a category is completed until you personaly have completed it and are prepared to back up the intel with notation.  For me this not something useful.



Chad, I think you should stop holding back and tell us how you really feel. ( I agree. )


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2007)

ChadWarner said:


> I would and I did
> 
> "I love a quote from Mr. Parker, "Board Breaking will help your art about 2%; therefore, you should devote 2% of your practice time on board breaking,".
> 
> ...


 Who told you that?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 5, 2007)

ChadWarner said:


> This is one Senior's approach. Not mine, not my branch. So it is not really widely used, if a lot of people from that group post I can see how one might get that impression. I understand the use of the word and I disagree with it. The exercises used to describe the "concept" are better suited to strip mall karate studios that waste time on nonscense. Commercial biased kenpo cats and sub cats into oblivion. It is a waste of time unless you spend the time to figure out it is a waste of time and why.
> 
> Why do I feel it is a time asassin? 1) doesn't create more power (2) doesn't help to pick the optimum angle of excution/retraction (3) doesn't increase mental/pysical/perceptual speed (4) Does't aid in balance/recovery (5) doesn't aid in target creation. If your going to tear movements apart, take out components and examine movement in them and begin refinement...Well not smart to tell someone a category is completed until you personaly have completed it and are prepared to back up the intel with notation. For me this not something useful.


 
I disagree.  Especially on points 3 and 5.  Looking at the reverses and opposites (Cat Com) has helped me immensly in recognizing positions and using that recognition to enhance my target awareness, target acquisition, target creation and the three speeds.  Cat Com theory, study and practice has played a big part in improving my response time to variable attacks (the three speeds).  Also as a result of increased awareness and perception my ability to go from point A to point B mentally exceeded my ability to do it physically.  This led to more practice of "grafting" and "spontaneous response" which improved my balance and recovery as my transitions among attacks become more complex before becoming simple.  This increase in balance and recovery promoted better accuracy and this study of positional relationships made me study more indepth the angles needed to effect the same response from slightly different but similar positions.  All of this practice improved my focus, coordination and timing which naturally enhanced my power and force generation by improving my master keys for power such as Back Up Mass, Torque, Marriage of Gravity, Directional Harmony, etc.  I guess I just flatly disagree.  Cat Com has provided a valuable roadmap towards my improving all areas of my Kenpo practice.


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## ChadWarner (Jun 5, 2007)

Doc said:


> Chad, I think you should stop holding back and tell us how you really feel. ( I agree. )


 
What?!  Me?


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 6, 2007)

Take the finger set as an example of Category Completion. We use a straight horizontal finger thrust, vertical finger thrust, upward finger thrust, both right and left. The system basics even teach a back four finger thrust over the shoulder (fingers spread for margin for error), vertical thrust to the side. What is left, hmmmmm rear thrust below the waist or the inverted vertical straight finger thrust? Could they be done? Sure! Are they useful or practical? Probably not. So simply, Category Completion is the process in which you can index categories of motion thus enabling you to decipher what is useful and what is not.

At least it's the way I look at it.:asian:


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## Blindside (Jun 6, 2007)

kenpo3631 said:


> Probably not. So simply, Category Completion is the process in which you can index categories of motion thus enabling you to decipher what is useful and what is not.


 
Have all categories of "useful motion"  been completed in American Kenpo?  Are any of the categories completed with less than useful motion?  

Lamont


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 6, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Have all categories of "useful motion" been completed in American Kenpo? Are any of the categories completed with less than useful motion?
> 
> Lamont


 
To answer your question...the way I see it YES. It is up to us to find them and catalog them for our own reference. Having a good instructor to guide you down the path helps too

Mr. Parker used to say...

_"Catagorize your moves as: useful, unuseful, and, useless"_ 
The Zen of Kenpo pg 126

He also used to say ...

_"Never discard knowledge that is not applicable to you, but store it"_
The Zen of Kenpo pg 126

So with that stated... just because it can be done doesn't mean it'll work. You may see a variation of a basic that is unuseful or useless for us in our given art performed by someone else in another system in which that particular basic (variation) may be useful to them, register it in the brain bank as it may indeed become useful to you someday.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 6, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> I disagree. Especially on points 3 and 5. Looking at the reverses and opposites (Cat Com) has helped me immensly in recognizing positions and using that recognition to enhance my target awareness, target acquisition, target creation and the three speeds. Cat Com theory, study and practice has played a big part in improving my response time to variable attacks (the three speeds). Also as a result of increased awareness and perception my ability to go from point A to point B mentally exceeded my ability to do it physically. This led to more practice of "grafting" and "spontaneous response" which improved my balance and recovery as my transitions among attacks become more complex before becoming simple. This increase in balance and recovery promoted better accuracy and this study of positional relationships made me study more indepth the angles needed to effect the same response from slightly different but similar positions. All of this practice improved my focus, coordination and timing which naturally enhanced my power and force generation by improving my master keys for power such as Back Up Mass, Torque, Marriage of Gravity, Directional Harmony, etc. I guess I just flatly disagree. Cat Com has provided a valuable roadmap towards my improving all areas of my Kenpo practice.


 
Dang, James. Good stuff.

I admitedly do not subscribe to category completion, but for no really insightful, edumacated reasons. My brain just won't wrap around it, and stay there. Kinda like calculus; I get it for a couple of minutes, then it slides right off the teflon.

D.


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 6, 2007)

ChadWarner said:


> This is one Senior's approach. Not mine, not my branch. So it is not really widely used, if a lot of people from that group post I can see how one might get that impression. I understand the use of the word and I disagree with it. The exercises used to describe the "concept" are better suited to strip mall karate studios that waste time on nonscense. Commercial biased kenpo cats and sub cats into oblivion. It is a waste of time unless you spend the time to figure out it is a waste of time and why.
> 
> Why do I feel it is a time asassin? 1) doesn't create more power (2) doesn't help to pick the optimum angle of excution/retraction (3) doesn't increase mental/pysical/perceptual speed (4) Does't aid in balance/recovery (5) doesn't aid in target creation. If your going to tear movements apart, take out components and examine movement in them and begin refinement...Well not smart to tell someone a category is completed until you personaly have completed it and are prepared to back up the intel with notation. For me this not something useful.


 
Your right it does nothing for the above. It helps you to catagorize your moves as useful, unuseful, and, useless

Creating more power...use your power principles

Pick the optimum angle of excution/retraction...should have been taught that in the ideal phase

Increase mental/pysical/perceptual speed....comes through years of study and practice

Aid in balance/recovery ...Practice your stances

Aid in target creation... Additional targets become available during the course of a technique through reaction (although you can target an area to generate a response that opens an additional target)....Comes from analytical study of motion.



> For me this not something useful



Sorry you feel that way


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 7, 2007)

kenpo3631 said:


> *Your right it does nothing for the above.* It helps you to catagorize your moves as useful, unuseful, and, useless
> 
> Creating more power...use your power principles
> 
> ...


 
I agree to disagree here.


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 7, 2007)

Category Main Entry: 
cat·e·go·ry 

Pronunciation: \&#712;ka-t&#601;-&#716;go&#775;r-&#275;\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ries Etymology: *con*Late Latin categoria, from Greek kat&#275;goria predication, category, from kat&#275;gorein to accuse, affirm, predicate, from kata- + agora public assembly, from ageirein to gather Date: 1588 1 : any of several fundamental and distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong
2 : a division within a system of classification 




Completion 

Main Entry: com·ple·tion 

 Pronunciation: \k&#601;m-&#712;pl&#275;-sh&#601;n\ Function: _noun_ Date: 1657 
1 : the act or process of completing 
2 : the quality or state of being complete 
3 : a completed forward pass in football 



*Concept *
Function: _adjective_ Date: 1896 *1* *:* organized around a main idea or theme <a _concept_ album> 
*2* *:* created to illustrate a concept <a _concept_ car> 




Why is this concept so hard to understand? By its shear definition it should be easy. The fundementals to Kenpo are its basics. We are taught them by side, method and angle. I.e. right upward vertical hook kick _or_ left inward horizontal elbow _or_ an upward elbow break, etc. There are also only so many ways you can work on an opponent's arm given the way we work our opponents weapons, I.e. on top, underneath , to the inside or the outside of the weapon. If we explore the written curriculum there are only so many basics written. I believe Mr. Parker intentionally had this done to give students a starting point. It was left up to the student (with the assistance of a qualified instructor and through anaylsis of the Universal Pattern) to find the other ways in which to employ basics. It is also my belief that Mr. Parker wanted students to do this to have them find out for themselves what was useful, unuseful or useless. I am sure if one were to go through all the ways to do a hook kick I am sure you will find a method that would be useless. I believe that Mr. Parker included the "practicable" methods into the forms and techniques to illustrate their use. I also feel that he left some out "on purpose" to make us do some of the work. I found that the answers you work the hardest to find are the ones you most never forget.

For creating power I only know of 3 main power principles. Back Up Mass, Marriage with Gravity (Back Up Mass used primarily Vertically), and Torque. There is also the odd man out - Borrowed Force. At anytime we may use any combination of the these. Where would category completion fall here? I guess you can apply the concept to power priciples.

As I stated before in regard to picking the optimum angle of execution/retraction, this should be covered in the ideal phase of the technique when it is taught to you. We are expected to find the variations through practice with your partner. The standards are the standards. Five Swords ends with a downward hammering chop for a reason, you can do the chop with a different method of execution, but why?

Increasing mental/physical/perceptual speed I feel would come through practice of the material on a person and the aid in balance/recovery would come through stance work.

As far as aiding in target creation, I thought additional targets became available during the course of a technique through reaction (a factor inherently built in by Mr. Parker) , whether is be from us evading or redirecting the attack or by physically making him react through striking. I don't see how target creation fits in with the Category Completion Concept.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 7, 2007)

kenpo3631 said:


> Category Main Entry:
> cat·e·go·ry
> 
> Pronunciation: \&#712;ka-t&#601;-&#716;go&#775;r-&#275;\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ries Etymology: *con*Late Latin categoria, from Greek kat&#275;goria predication, category, from kat&#275;gorein to accuse, affirm, predicate, from kata- + agora public assembly, from ageirein to gather Date: 1588 1 : any of several fundamental and distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong
> ...




Thank you for the definitions....



> Why is this concept so hard to understand? By its shear definition it should be easy.


 
It's not hard to understand.  But by definition of it being a concept it is open to interpretation....many of which are not your own singular interpretation.   By the way did you mean to be condescending while disagreeing?  If so, unnecessary.



> The fundamentals to Kenpo are its basics. We are taught them by side, method and angle. I.e. right upward vertical hook kick _or_ left inward horizontal elbow _or_ an upward elbow break, etc. There are also only so many ways you can work on an opponent's arm given the way we work our opponents weapons, I.e. on top, underneath , to the inside or the outside of the weapon. If we explore the written curriculum there are only so many basics written. I believe Mr. Parker intentionally had this done to give students a starting point. It was left up to the student (with the assistance of a qualified instructor and through anaylsis of the Universal Pattern) to find the other ways in which to employ basics. It is also my belief that Mr. Parker wanted students to do this to have them find out for themselves what was useful, unuseful or useless. I am sure if one were to go through all the ways to do a hook kick I am sure you will find a method that would be useless. I believe that Mr. Parker included the "practicable" methods into the forms and techniques to illustrate their use. I also feel that he left some out "on purpose" to make us do some of the work. I found that the answers you work the hardest to find are the ones you most never forget.


 
O, this is a long lead in to the meat of your point of view and I'll cross reference it to mine.  Feel free to disagree but you need no be condescending when you do so.



> For creating power I only know of 3 main power principles. Back Up Mass, Marriage with Gravity (Back Up Mass used primarily Vertically), and Torque. There is also the odd man out - Borrowed Force. At anytime we may use any combination of the these. Where would category completion fall here? I guess you can apply the concept to power priciples.


 
Each power principle has two main directions it follows (except torque which can really go in any direction as it has multiple planes).  These two directions are the opposites and reverses to each other which is what Cat Com is.... "For every motion, principle or concept there is an opposite and a reverse".



> As I stated before in regard to picking the optimum angle of execution/retraction, this should be covered in the ideal phase of the technique when it is taught to you. We are expected to find the variations through practice with your partner. The standards are the standards. Five Swords ends with a downward hammering chop for a reason, you can do the chop with a different method of execution, but why?


 
In studying the multiple angles, opposites and reverse you will find what is optimal for many situations. The ideal phase is only one specific situation and even then the angles of execution/retraction do not have the same optimal angles due to our individual differences.  The idea is sound but in actuality it does not work.  People having different bone structures and ranges of motion will cause deviations in what an 'optimum' or optimal angle is.



> Increasing mental/physical/perceptual speed I feel would come through practice of the material on a person


 
A person doing what? giving resistance, being compliant, being non compliant?  And what are you practicing on the person? ideal phase, formualtion, what-ifing.  If it's anything other than ideal then Cat Com becomes highly applicable as that is what leads to a greater understanding of angles, positions, etc.



> and the aid in balance/recovery would come through stance work.


 
Stance work as in stance set? or forms? or sparring? or resistance training?  Balance and recovery while trying to effect a moving and thinking target is quite an exercise.  Even without thinking about it your brain is analyzing the different positions and angles and cataloging what is working and what isn't.  If you grapple for example you try to push and it doesn't work the opposite is a pull.  That's active practice of a CAt COM concept and in doing so your balance and recovery are being worked on as you try to maintain an advantageous position over a moving and thinking target.



> As far as aiding in target creation, I thought additional targets became available during the course of a technique through reaction (a factor inherently built in by Mr. Parker) , whether is be from us evading or redirecting the attack or by physically making him react through striking. I don't see how target creation fits in with the Category Completion Concept.


 
Additional targets come through reaction but what reactions you get and what targets you get are often a direct reflection of what actions you choose.  Your chooses are dependent on what you have been exposed to with regards to the executions of your basics.  The executions of your basics in their varying angles, directions, methods of execution, etc. is trained by examining them.  Cat Com is ONE way of examining them.

So.....You think of Cat Com as merely a system of organization and seem to disregard the active use of the organization.  I see Cat Com as a system of organization.......with the purpose of outlining in a logical, consistent, and organized way what I need to work on.  Cat Com starts the process and is the foundation by which all the other aspects are built upon.  This is my interpretation.  There are several more.  The mere fact that my interpretation is different from yours doesn't mean that your idea is "difficult to understand".  It's undertood.  I just disagree as I see a more indepth use for a concept you define as merely a system of classification and cataloging.  Classified and cataloged to do what? What is the purpose?  What is knowledge without an applied use? And since this is a martial art/self defense system that applied use is physical combat more often than not.

1) Kenpo is the basics...you said that.

2) Cat Com is the process by which all the basics are explored in many different ways to find how, why to emply them...you said that.

3) Everything we do in Kenpo (Target Creation, Power Generation, Balance, Angles of execution/retraction, the thre speeds) is a direct reflection on our application of and understanding of the basics (not just physical basics but conceptual and principle basics as well).

4) So if Cat Com is how the basics and their employment are explored and the other things are built on the basics....how does Cat Com not apply to the things that are built from the base that Cat Com explores?


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## Doc (Jun 7, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> [/FONT]
> 
> Thank you for the definitions....
> 
> ...



"Right on." - Isaac Hayes


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 7, 2007)

Mr. Hawkins:

I'm glad you're one of the good guys.

Dave


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 7, 2007)

> It's not hard to understand. But by definition of it being a concept it is open to interpretation....many of which are not your own singular interpretation. By the way did you mean to be condescending while disagreeing? If so, unnecessary.


 
First, nothing I posted was meant to be condencending. The definition of "concept" means organized around a main idea or theme, in our case motion, or created to illustrate a concept, I.e. conceptual box theory. 

_The fundamentals to Kenpo are its basics. We are taught them by side, method and angle. I.e. right upward vertical hook kick or left inward horizontal elbow or an upward elbow break, etc. There are also only so many ways you can work on an opponent's arm given the way we work our opponents weapons, I.e. on top, underneath , to the inside or the outside of the weapon. If we explore the written curriculum there are only so many basics written. I believe Mr. Parker intentionally had this done to give students a starting point. It was left up to the student (with the assistance of a qualified instructor and through anaylsis of the Universal Pattern) to find the other ways in which to employ basics. It is also my belief that Mr. Parker wanted students to do this to have them find out for themselves what was useful, unuseful or useless. I am sure if one were to go through all the ways to do a hook kick I am sure you will find a method that would be useless. I believe that Mr. Parker included the "practicable" methods into the forms and techniques to illustrate their use. I also feel that he left some out "on purpose" to make us do some of the work. I found that the answers you work the hardest to find are the ones you most never forget. _




> O, this is a long lead in to the meat of your point of view and I'll cross reference it to mine. Feel free to disagree but you need no be condescending when you do so.


 
You're right, that was the meat of my point of view. It's how "I" view the concept. I like to keep things simple.



> Each power principle has two main directions it follows (except torque which can really go in any direction as it has multiple planes). These two directions are the opposites and reverses to each other which is what Cat Com is.... "For every motion, principle or concept there is an opposite and a reverse".


 
Nicely put. However I look at Category Completion when refering to the "motion" I.e. "matched sets", "standard opposes'", basics, etc... Not so much the Power Principles. Heck you got forward, backwards, up and down, and torque is like you already stated. Simple

_As I stated before in regard to picking the optimum angle of execution/retraction, this should be covered in the ideal phase of the technique when it is taught to you. We are expected to find the variations through practice with your partner. The standards are the standards. Five Swords ends with a downward hammering chop for a reason, you can do the chop with a different method of execution, but why? _



> In studying the multiple angles, opposites and reverse you will find what is optimal for many situations. The ideal phase is only one specific situation and even then the angles of execution/retraction do not have the same optimal angles due to our individual differences.


 
*optimum angle *is what was addressed. Sure theier a many angles you can strike from that will cause different results, however I choose to base my satatements on the "ideal phase" of the technique. The vehicle to convey the proper "angles of execution" before exploring other avenues.



> The idea is sound but in actuality it does not work. People having different bone structures and ranges of motion will cause deviations in what an 'optimum' or optimal angle is.


 
Why doesn't it? A hammer is a hammer whether you are 5 ft tall or 6 ft tall. It's how you employ body mechanics and power principles to make it work. 

_Increasing mental/physical/perceptual speed I feel would come through practice of the material on a person _



> A person doing what?


 
On a person, I.e the opponent or "judo dummy" or "training partner" , you know someone to actually do the technique on.



> giving resistance, being compliant, being non compliant? And what are you practicing on the person? ideal phase, formualtion, what-ifing.


 
Depending on the belt level, and depending on what you feel like working on will dictate the degree in which your partner will react in training. The other half or knowing the Kenpo techniques is knowing the attackers side. I.e. how will the opponent most likely react when struck in a certain target. So if we were training and I kicked you in the groin I would expect you to bend forward at the waist, because 9 times out of 10 that's what generally happens. 



> If it's anything other than ideal then Cat Com becomes highly applicable as that is what leads to a greater understanding of angles, positions, etc.


 
I don't see it. Maybe knowing the other techniques in the sytem helped me with the what if and formulation.



> Balance and recovery while trying to effect a moving and thinking target is quite an exercise. Even without thinking about it your brain is analyzing the different positions and angles and cataloging what is working and what isn't. If you grapple for example you try to push and it doesn't work the opposite is a pull. That's active practice of a CAt COM concept and in doing so your balance and recovery are being worked on as you try to maintain an advantageous position over a moving and thinking target


 
I guess so. I'm thinking it is working strategy to get waht works TO work. 



> Stance work as in stance set? or forms? or sparring? or resistance training?


 
All of the above. After all Stances are are at the top of the basics list. Got to establish that base!



> Additional targets come through reaction but what reactions you get and what targets you get are often a direct reflection of what actions you choose. Your chooses are dependent on what you have been exposed to with regards to the executions of your basics. The executions of your basics in their varying angles, directions, methods of execution, etc. is trained by examining them. Cat Com is ONE way of examining them.


 
Isn't that what I said? 

_As far as aiding in target creation, I thought additional targets became available during the course of a technique through reaction (a factor inherently built in by Mr. Parker) , whether is be from us evading or redirecting the attack or by physically making him react through striking_.



> Cat Com is ONE way of examining them


 
I still don't see how target creation fits in with the Category Completion Concept. I guess it could. I just don't see it that way.



> So.....You think of Cat Com as merely a system of organization and seem to disregard the active use of the organization.


 
Yes and no. I feel the system of Kenpo is an active use of organization.



> I see Cat Com as a system of organization.......with the purpose of outlining in a logical, consistent, and organized way what I need to work on. Cat Com starts the process and is the foundation by which all the other aspects are built upon. This is my interpretation


 
And that's where you and I differ, nothing wrong with that.



> So if Cat Com is how the basics and their employment are explored and the other things are built on the basics....how does Cat Com not apply to the things that are built from the base that Cat Com explores?


 
To be honest I used to get caught up in all the "sophistication" too. Then someone told me to look at it simply for what it's worth. In other words don't read too much into it, and you know what? My understanding of things became so much clearer. It is the way I choose to look at things. I am not saying you are right or wrong. It's you're opinion and you are entitled to as I am of mine.

Thank you for the excellent debate.:asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 8, 2007)

kenpo3631 said:


> First, nothing I posted was meant to be condencending. The definition of "concept" means organized around a main idea or theme, in our case motion, or created to illustrate a concept, I.e. conceptual box theory.............Yes and no. I feel the system of Kenpo is an active use of organization..............
> 
> Thank you for the excellent debate.:asian:


 
I got one question. How do YOU view Cat Com in the sense of being 'active' versus passive (passive to me meaning just a method of collecting and organizing)?  I'm interested in your point of view and this is not meant to be a loaded question.

Thanks for the debate as well, I enjoy a well thought out discussion.  My apologies for the "condescending" remarks.  Too much gets lost/misinterpreted in the translation of pure text.


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 8, 2007)

I don't look it as an "active" anything. I understand it to be a way of (for a lack of a better term), cataloging aspects of motion. There are only so many ways to do a basic or a manuever, not all of them or practical or useful. In addition there are, I feel, that the concept when paralleled with forms & technique practice acts as a guide to help the student determine what is useful, unuseful and useless. A perfect example of how I look at Category Completion would be with shuffles. You have the step drag, the drag step, the push drag, and pull drag. That's it for shuffles, category completed. See what I'm getting at?

I hope that made some sense:idunno:


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 8, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Darting Leaves is not really a "lost technique" *it's a category completion technique for the form*. In the previous technique _'Protecting Fans' you did a kick + eye poke with opposite hand opposite foot. In "Darting Leaves" you do a kick + eye poke with the same hand and foot._
> 
> But a solid list of "lost techniques" could go:
> 
> ...


 
Hmmmm..... seems like you knew what I was getting at all along.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 8, 2007)

kenpo3631 said:


> Hmmmm..... seems like you knew what I was getting at all along.


 
As I said.  I understand it well.  I just take the concept arguably "further" than the cursory use of cataloging.  I guess I just try to get more bang for my buck.  Cat Com roadmaps my practice.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jun 11, 2007)

I think it has a very small point but there are those that spend all there time chasing that dam puzzle and mean time they can't fight any better. It will help you get the big picture of where the knowledge is at but there is alot of fluff out there that is not very usefull.
I believe that 80% of the knowledge in EPAK can be found in 20% of the techniques, forms and sets. 
I am a bit on the rebel side here and think that once you learn a technique you should spend some time in a technique line but you need to break away from that and freaking spare. I see too many people out there with lots of red on there belts that can do a technique with someone standing there letting them hit them 40 times but watch them spare (that is if they do at all.) and they could not make there kenpo work at all.

Bunch of dam sissy out there!!!!!

hahahaha

Sorry guys just had to vent.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 11, 2007)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:


> I think it has a very small point but there are those that spend all there time chasing that dam puzzle and mean time they can't fight any better. It will help you get the big picture of where the knowledge is at but there is alot of fluff out there that is not very usefull.
> I believe that 80% of the knowledge in EPAK can be found in 20% of the techniques, forms and sets.
> I am a bit on the rebel side here and think that once you learn a technique you should spend some time in a technique line but you need to break away from that and freaking spare. I see too many people out there with lots of red on there belts that can do a technique with someone standing there letting them hit them 40 times but watch them spare (that is if they do at all.) and they could not make there kenpo work at all.
> 
> ...


 
Vent away. I agree.


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