# Sia (or Zia...whatever it is)



## DBZ (Mar 7, 2009)

So i have a pair of sia(the thing that the red ninja turtle has lol) that my wife bought me a while ago and i just pick em up and flip them around once in a while. Does anybody know of a book or website i could learn something from? forms mabey? My training in TKD does not cover any weapons except what to do if you get attacked with a knife. I would really love how to use them, I learned how to do the basics with my nunchacku from a book so im pretty sure i could learn this too


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## tellner (Mar 7, 2009)

They're called "Sai" in Okinawa and Japan, Cabang in the Malay world. Many Okinawan Karate schools teach traditional weapons including the sai.


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## DBZ (Mar 7, 2009)

Sai, sorry i spelled it wrong. I want to learn more about them. the most I know is what movies has shown me. I would love to find a good book about them.


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## searcher (Mar 7, 2009)

I am all for people trying to learn new things and I think some can learn some things from books and videos, but never try to learn a weapon on your own without an instructor right there with you.     There is a very high risk of you doing serious damage to yourself and everything around you.     Find the nearest Okinawan karate school to you and go there.    Tell them what you are wanting to learn.    They may not have a Kobudo instructor there, but they might.     If they do not have one, go find a seminar that has sai instruction.

This will save you from hurting yourself.


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## redantstyle (Mar 7, 2009)

> Find the nearest Okinawan karate school


 
.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 7, 2009)

DBZ,

I hate to tell you, but you will probably end up with a page worth of replied much like the ones you've already gotten.  In the case of weapons, even Sai, which seem somewhat safe, your best bet is to always find an instructor.  Just think if instead of going in to a TKD school to learn, you picked up a book....only add spinning metal.   

There are probably a few good books out there, but learning a weapon from a book or DVD is in general not a good idea.  Just saying this because there have been quite a few questions like this on MT and it usually ends up turning in to a debate on the pros and cons of distance learning.  A Kobudo or Isshinryu school would be able to teach you sai.  Actually, learning a weapon does quite a bit for the practice of your empty handed art.  I'm in Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do as well as Haidong Gumdo (Korean sword) and the sword has made a big difference in my TSD.  

An Amazon search shows a handful of book or DVDs, but of course, they won't get you anywhere close to what real instruction could....and there is the possibility that you can hurt yourself.  Not saying that you are inept or anything.  I say this from experience.  Every man in the world thinks that if you give them a sword, they can handle it no problem....but I can't tell you how many times while learning I hit myself (with a mokgum) in various body parts learning sword.  A live blade is of course quite different from a pair of sai....but the same idea applies.


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## Sandstorm (Mar 7, 2009)

I will just join in and add to the others' comments. Get a good instructor. Chances are, your learning from the Nunchaku book, wether it's Fumio Demura or Yamashita or whoever, they cannot possibly teach you the same way an instructor can. I didn't even start Bo staff until Brown Belt, so chances of you walking into a Dojo and asking to learn Sai and they accept, are minimal at best. A proper Kubodo school would be your best bet, though I don't know how easy it is to find one in your vicinity. If you really want to learn it, you'll find a way

Self instruction via books and dvd's = trouble and imperfection.

Good luck with your search and stay safe.

Regards
John


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## arnisador (Mar 7, 2009)

You'll find sai book on Amazon (e.g., by Fumio Demura) but you definitely need an instructor.


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## searcher (Mar 7, 2009)

MBuzzy-I would almost say that sai is "somewhat" safe, until he chambers the sai and runs a yoku(prongs) into his abdomen or chest.     I have seen this and it is not pretty.    That along with various bruises and the occasional broken body part.


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## DBZ (Mar 7, 2009)

I will try to find a instructor but it may take a while. I know alot of TKD and TSD instuctors, I even know an akido and hopkido instructor. but I know ZERO japan or okinawa instructors. I find it funny that everybody that is not in a MA sees my uniform and says " do you take karate?!" and I always roll my eyes and say no but I would love to meet somebody that truly knows a form of karate lol


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## searcher (Mar 7, 2009)

DBZ-where are you in Ohio?    I will try to find you someone.


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## DBZ (Mar 7, 2009)

I am about one hour north of columbus, I live in the country the citys around me are mansfield, marion, mt. gilead, fredericktown. Im willing to drive to columbus.


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## arnisador (Mar 7, 2009)

searcher said:


> MBuzzy-I would almost say that sai is "somewhat" safe, until he chambers the sai and runs a yoku(prongs) into his abdomen or chest.     I have seen this and it is not pretty.



I knew someone who did this while chambering the sai (like chambering a punch, but you can no longer have the palm up in chambered position when holding the sai). It left a heck of a scar on her.


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## jarrod (Mar 7, 2009)

i'm going to be the voice of dissent here. assuming you have a good base in some form of martial arts, i.e., enough to know if something you're about to do is absolutely stupid or not, you can self train a weapon so long as your goal is just to flip them around from time to time like you said. if you expect true proficiency, you will need instruction of course. but it sounds like you just want to play around with some sai, like i suspect 90% percent of us on this forum did when we were kids.

speaking of which, from about ages 9-13 i "trained" with nunchaku, sai, tonfa, & assorted other "ninja weapons" & had absolutely zero MA experience or training. i didn't exactly master them, but i could spin them around. i still have all my fingers & i'm not sterile or anything. 

jf


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## searcher (Mar 7, 2009)

Here is one for you to check out.   They say they have Kobudo available.

http://www.adonaifinearts.com/karate

They would be able to help you with the sai.


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## lklawson (Mar 9, 2009)

DBZ said:


> I am about one hour north of columbus, I live in the country the citys around me are mansfield, marion, mt. gilead, fredericktown. Im willing to drive to columbus.


You're not too far from Ken Pfrenger.  He won't teach you sai, but he'd be glad to pile on some Irish Stick, Navaja, Sombo, or Carpathian Ax.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jarrod (Mar 9, 2009)

man, i wish there was a good WMA group near me.  i've visited/trained at a few & i dunno...can't i learn how to use an ax without playing d & d, or wearing funny clothes?  

jf


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## Grenadier (Mar 9, 2009)

Find yourself a martial arts school that teaches sai as part of their kobudo training.  

The school need not be an Okinawan Karate school, as there are quite a few Japanese Karate schools (Shotokan, Wado Ryu, etc) that teach one of the "big three" styles of kobudo (Matayoshi, Yamanni Ryu, Ryu Kyu).  

Above all, though, get competent live instruction.  When working with sai, it's very important to have good mechanics, as a bad set of mechanics can result in injury to one's self, and not just from hitting yourself with the metal sai.  I've seen self-trained practitioners who end up with elbow injuries, forearm injuries, hand injuries, etc., from sheer wear and tear, due to their shoddy mechanics.  

No matter how good a video may be, and no matter how correct, it cannot tell you if you are doing things right or wrong.  Videos and books are good for enhancing the knowledge of one who already has knowledge of the weapon's use, but even then, no book can replace a competent instructor.  

Yes, there are some amazingly talented people who were able to pick up a sai, receive a minimal amount of instruction with it, and become masters, but those people are the very rare exceptions to the rule.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2009)

Ok - perfect example here of why a DVD or Book doesn't work.  I was testing in sword last night.  One of our requirements is to put out candles with the sword (using a straight down cut, stopping at the wick).  I was doing 5 candles last night.  I have practiced this on my own and with other students many times, but it is only the 3rd or 4th time that I've done it with my instructor watching.  I've always been able to do 1 or 2, but never 5.  I did about 4 cuts with her watching with no luck.  Then she said "Squeeze with your pinkies and try not to bounce back up after you stop."  And the next cut, they all went out.

That is something that I NEVER would have known if she wasn't sitting there.  I've watched it done a thousand times in DVDs, live, etc.....but you need an instructor to watch and see those little things and poof...it works.  Weapons are funny like that.


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## lklawson (Mar 9, 2009)

jarrod said:


> man, i wish there was a good WMA group near me. i've visited/trained at a few


I had to start one.  ;-)

There's a fella over on MyArmoury who's profile says he's from KC: Gary Venable

The Kansas City Fencing Association might be able to point you in the right direction or might have a few "closet HEMA/Historical-Fencing" members.



> & i dunno...can't i learn how to use an ax without playing d & d, or wearing funny clothes?


Now that you mention it, there are a few folks in the SCA who are also interested in WMA/HEMA/Historical-Fencing.  Might be a good place to look.  You'll still find an assortment of SCA folks who just want to do the s*C*a thing but they're nice folks.  I know one top name instructor who (along with his wife, also an instructor) is former SCA and another who still participates.  I also know several practicing WMA students and a few "locally known" instructors who still participate in SCA.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## DBZ (Mar 9, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> That is something that I NEVER would have known if she wasn't sitting there. I've watched it done a thousand times in DVDs, live, etc.....but you need an instructor to watch and see those little things and poof...it works. Weapons are funny like that.


 
I have come to realize that I am goin to have to track down an instuctor for this. I want to do more than just flip them around, I want to ge good at them. I picked my nunchukus at class one day and started flippin them around, and the green belts watchin me thought it was great but anyone who really knows how to use them would have known I was just goofin of.


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## Grenadier (Mar 9, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> Then she said "Squeeze with your pinkies and try not to bounce back up after you stop." And the next cut, they all went out.
> 
> That is something that I NEVER would have known if she wasn't sitting there. I've watched it done a thousand times in DVDs, live, etc.....but you need an instructor to watch and see those little things and poof...it works. Weapons are funny like that.


 
Same here. I tried learning the Yamanni Ryu sai kata Kishaba No Sai Sho on my own, but just couldn't quite understand the one part where you're gripping the sai on the outside of the tines, no matter how many times I had looked at the video. 

Working with an experienced Yamanni Ryu instructor who knew the kata, cleared it up in 1 minute, and cleaning up the rest of the kata took an hour of one on one instruction.  Trying to do all of the kata correctly took a good bit longer, since I had to unlearn more than just a few things.


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## still learning (Mar 9, 2009)

Hello, The Sai...was first use a farming tool and like most multiple use farming tools has duel use...Nunchucks, bo, and tonfa.

Sai was a good defense weapon against the swords...because Okinawans could not own any sharp instruments.

Just make sure you "Sai' do not have a sharp point..it is rounded and flat...for your safety.  

You may want to wear some kind of safety goggles for your eyes....

Many of us have two eyes only...sometimes can be replaceable by eye banks....Best to wear some kind of eye protection.

Sai can be use forwards,backwards,sideways...has unlimited moves for defense and attacks modes.

Learn from experience teachers.....as mention many times above!

Aloha


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## tellner (Mar 9, 2009)

The "Sai as farming tool" is a common story. I'm not sure it's actually true. The usual explanations are that it's for sticking holes in the ground to plant rice or that it was used as a horse picket. There are all sorts of traditional farming cultures in that part of the world who don't use a short trident to plant their rice. And as for the other, in an experiment a few years back one of my unindicted co-conspirators tried it. The horse pulled the sai out of the ground without even noticing it was there.

On the other hand, there are old, old pictures from the sub-continent showing it used as a weapon. The Malays have a pretty much identical weapon which doesn't have any other advertised use. The Okinawans have traditional weapons like the knuckle-duster which don't have any sort of plausible deniability.


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## Grenadier (Mar 9, 2009)

tellner said:


> The "Sai as farming tool" is a common story. I'm not sure it's actually true. The usual explanations are that it's for sticking holes in the ground to plant rice or that it was used as a horse picket. There are all sorts of traditional farming cultures in that part of the world who don't use a short trident to plant their rice. And as for the other, in an experiment a few years back one of my unindicted co-conspirators tried it. The horse pulled the sai out of the ground without even noticing it was there.


 

No kidding...  There were MUCH better tools for that purpose, than a sai.  

Here's an interesting read, by Oshiro Sensei:

http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo_sai.html


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## searcher (Mar 9, 2009)

tellner said:


> The "Sai as farming tool" is a common story. I'm not sure it's actually true. The usual explanations are that it's for sticking holes in the ground to plant rice or that it was used as a horse picket. There are all sorts of traditional farming cultures in that part of the world who don't use a short trident to plant their rice. And as for the other, in an experiment a few years back one of my unindicted co-conspirators tried it. The horse pulled the sai out of the ground without even noticing it was there.
> 
> On the other hand, there are old, old pictures from the sub-continent showing it used as a weapon. The Malays have a pretty much identical weapon which doesn't have any other advertised use. The Okinawans have traditional weapons like the knuckle-duster which don't have any sort of plausible deniability.


 

Todd, you are right on the money about the sai.    It was never a farming tool, it was used by Okinawan "Police."    If you look at the history of the sai, it is riddled with mis-information.   The sai and the gen(Hung Gar) served the purpose of detaining the BGs.     It is quite handy in a manor similar to handcuffs.


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## tellner (Mar 10, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> No kidding...  There were MUCH better tools for that purpose, than a sai.
> 
> Here's an interesting read, by Oshiro Sensei:
> 
> http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo_sai.html



Very interesting essay, Grenadier.

Rice farming is the original "back-breaking labor." And that's not a metaphor. Anything that's remotely more comfortable or efficient will win out. Bending double to poke little holes in the mud is uncomfortable and inefficient. Multiply that by dawn-to-dusk repetition over the entire planting season. There's no way a farmer would do that to himself. If his back is messed up, forget about the marauding Samurai. He won't be able to work, and his family will starve.


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## DBZ (Mar 10, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys. I did not think there were that many sai users out there


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## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 12, 2009)

DBZ said:


> I have come to realize that I am goin to have to track down an instuctor for this. I want to do more than just flip them around, I want to ge good at them. I picked my nunchukus at class one day and started flippin them around, and the green belts watchin me thought it was great but anyone who really knows how to use them would have known I was just goofin of.



Good on you. Remember that weapons are also often taught to enhance a particular aspect of martial arts (balance, explosive power etc), so you'll get more from your sai with proper instruction.


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## frownland (Apr 3, 2009)

Another avenue you might try in finding a teacher DBZ; we learn them in my Southern Chinese MA, although it has a different look and emphasis to what little I've seen from Japanese/Okinawan styles.


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## chinto (Apr 4, 2009)

OK here is my two cents worth. 

GO find an Okinawan style dojo.  most of them teach Kobudo/kobujitsu, and this is one of the traditional weapons taught as part of that. 

I would say that trying to learn that weapon from tapes or books is counter productive and will cost you more and teach you less then going to classes at a dojo. ( not to mention the unarmed stuff you will learn is cool too.)


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