# The point of testing students



## PhotonGuy (Sep 22, 2017)

Some martial arts schools don't test students, rather they simply promote the student when the student is ready. The student might put on a demonstration with the purpose of showing off what they've learned and so forth but unless their performance affects the outcome, another words, unless there's the possibility of failing and not being promoted as well as the possibility of passing and being promoted than its not a test. Its a demonstration, plain and simple. Now, Im not saying such methods are wrong or bad but there are some schools that require a student to pass a test in order to be promoted. Their performance during the test determines whether they get promoted or not. Now, some might ask what's the point of having a test that the instructor should know if the student is ready or not to promote without having to test the student. Well, the point of testing the student is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you're taking a test and the outcome depends on how well you do there is a certain amount of psychological pressure that you have to deal with. So that's why some schools use tests.


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## jobo (Sep 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial arts schools don't test students, rather they simply promote the student when the student is ready. The student might put on a demonstration with the purpose of showing off what they've learned and so forth but unless their performance affects the outcome, another words, unless there's the possibility of failing and not being promoted as well as the possibility of passing and being promoted than its not a test. Its a demonstration, plain and simple. Now, Im not saying such methods are wrong or bad but there are some schools that require a student to pass a test in order to be promoted. Their performance during the test determines whether they get promoted or not. Now, some might ask what's the point of having a test that the instructor should know if the student is ready or not to promote without having to test the student. Well, the point of testing the student is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you're taking a test and the outcome depends on how well you do there is a certain amount of psychological pressure that you have to deal with. So that's why some schools use tests.


its much the same in school? What's best? An exam that shows a student can preform on the day under pressure, or course work that shows a level of consistent excellence over a longer period. Which of those is the fairest test and which gives the most accurate assessment of ability?.

i think continuous assessment is fairest and best, but personally I'm lazy but good at performing under pressure, so i do best at exams, i just use to copy other peoples course work, but you can't cheat at ma assessments unless you have,a twin


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## CB Jones (Sep 22, 2017)

I like how my son's school and lineage handles it.

You need 3 black belts from the lineage to nominate you for testing.

All black belts from the lineage are allowed to sit on the panel and vote.  Each black belt gets as many votes as they are dan (1st dan has one vote, 5th dan has 5 votes and so on).

You need 90% of the votes to be awarded black belt.

Before voting, black belts have opportunity in private to address the panel with concerns they have with the candidate.

It serves as some quality control, but also creates a feeling of accomplishment and camaraderie to be judged and accepted by ones peers.


We do something close to that in our UC program.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 22, 2017)

I like the way my school does it:  no tests, no promotions, no belts.

It works for us.

One's mileage may vary.


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## jobo (Sep 22, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I like the way my school does it:  no tests, no promotions, no belts.
> 
> It works for us.
> 
> One's mileage may vary.


that's interesting, we had a thread where i said belts were at best a,distraction and every one else said they were invaluable, i suspect that was because they all had black bests or above and didn't like to,admit they had wasted dollars and years on something with no intrinsic value.

why does your,school not bother with them ?


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## jobo (Sep 22, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I like the way my school does it:  no tests, no promotions, no belts.
> 
> It works for us.
> 
> One's mileage may vary.


that's interesting, we had a thread where i said belts were at best a,distraction and every one else said they were invaluable, i suspect that was because they all had black bests or above and didn't like to,admit they had wasted dollars and years on something with no intrinsic value.

why does your,school not bother with them ?


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## Danny T (Sep 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial arts schools don't test students, rather they simply promote the student when the student is ready.


What does, "when the student is ready" mean?



PhotonGuy said:


> Well, the point of testing the student is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you're taking a test and the outcome depends on how well you do there is a certain amount of psychological pressure that you have to deal with. So that's why some schools use tests.


Every time I work with a student outside of teaching or coaching it is a test. In the same class I can be teaching, coaching, or testing and other than beginners they know when they are being taught or coached and when they are being tested.


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## Balrog (Sep 22, 2017)

Our students are evaluated throughout the testing cycle.  If they aren't ready, they don't get permission to test.  If they do get permission and have a bad hair day at the testing, they don't promote.

Simple as that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's interesting, we had a thread where i said belts were at best a,distraction and every one else said they were invaluable, i suspect that was because they all had black bests or above and didn't like to,admit they had wasted dollars and years on something with no intrinsic value.
> 
> why does your,school not bother with them ?


I don't recall anyone calling them invaluable. Several pointed out the value they found in both belts and testing/promotion. Most of us are not terribly wrapped up in the concept, and don't really think about our belts (black or otherwise) much.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's interesting, we had a thread where i said belts were at best a,distraction and every one else said they were invaluable, i suspect that was because they all had black bests or above and didn't like to,admit they had wasted dollars and years on something with no intrinsic value.
> 
> why does your,school not bother with them ?


I don't recall anyone calling them invaluable. Several pointed out the value they found in both belts and testing/promotion. Most of us are not terribly wrapped up in the concept, and don't really think about our belts (black or otherwise) much.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> its much the same in school? What's best? An exam that shows a student can preform on the day under pressure, or course work that shows a level of consistent excellence over a longer period. Which of those is the fairest test and which gives the most accurate assessment of ability?.
> 
> i think continuous assessment is fairest and best, but personally I'm lazy but good at performing under pressure, so i do best at exams, i just use to copy other peoples course work, but you can't cheat at ma assessments unless you have,a twin


I think a combination is a good fit, like exists in many grade schools. It could be done without one or the other. My students don't get much stress in their belt testing early on. I haven't decided what the testing will be precisely as they near black belt - that likely depends how I think the curriculum is doing at testing them along the way, and what I want to test for, besides technical proficiency.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 23, 2017)

Danny T said:


> What does, "when the student is ready" mean?


If the instructor sees that the student is ready.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I like the way my school does it:  no tests, no promotions, no belts.
> 
> It works for us.
> 
> One's mileage may vary.


So I take it your school doesn't use a ranking system, not all schools and not all styles do.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I like the way my school does it:  no tests, no promotions, no belts.
> 
> It works for us.
> 
> One's mileage may vary.


So your school doesn't have a ranking system I assume. Not all schools and not all styles do.


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## Danny T (Sep 23, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> If the instructor sees that the student is ready.


So the student has already shown the instructor proficiency in the material to be tested right? So really the test is not a measure of the student's knowledge and skill but a formality for he/she has already shown the instructor the proficiency to be ready to test.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> So the student has already shown the instructor proficiency in the material to be tested right? So really the test is not a measure of the student's knowledge and skill but a formality for he/she has already shown the instructor the proficiency to be ready to test.


I've seen this used three ways:


As you describe - the test is a formality. 
As I use it - the test is a chance to look for anything I missed. 
As a chance to see them perform under stress and/or to create some struggle, one more thing for them to achieve (the latter not really being a martial purpose, but a development purpose).
I think that's actually 4 - #3 should probably be split.


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## JR 137 (Sep 24, 2017)

Testing can be used for other things too...

1. Quality control.
Look at this class and teaching schedule: http://www.seido.com/fileuploads/HonbuFullSchedule.pdf
With several hundred students and classes running from 7:30 am-9 pm, students are going to get overlooked if there's not a solid plan in place.  Some students might not ever see the CI if their personal schedule conflicts with the school's schedule.  If I was a student there taking classes under different instructors, there could be too much variation in when the difference instructors thought I was ready.

Testing students from different schools also serves as quality control.  If teachers consistently bring students who don't perform as well and/or fail, that can be addressed.  If students from a particular school are all performing specific standardized techniques differently from the rest of the schools, that can also be addressed easily.  With a central figure testing students from affiliated schools, the CI is held accountable for his/her students.  These issues continually arise and get addressed.

2. The test is part of the learning process itself.
Students learn to pass AND fail gracefully.  Especially the kids.  They learn they have have to put in the work, and they have to perform when it matters most.  They still have to perform every day in training, otherwise they won't test; but they also have to perform well when the pressure's really on. They're not going to get a participation award in the form of a promotion.  They have to earn it.  If and when they fail, they're taught they need to work harder and/or smarter if they want to be successful.  If the student didn't accomplish their goal, they've got to change their approach.  That's a life lesson that can't be simulated the same way and to the same extent without the testing process.
There's been students over the years who've been forced out of their comfort zones and are better for it. I remember a female student in my previous organization who refused to spar with males.  She was told from the beginning she'd have to during her training and especially during her black belt test where she'd spar with men she didn't know.  She wasn't from my dojo and none of us knew what her issues were, but it seemed obvious to me that there was some form of abuse from male(s) in her past.  She was a wreck during the required sparring, but she got through it admirably.  She later on told me and a few others that it really helped her personally.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> So the student has already shown the instructor proficiency in the material to be tested right? So really the test is not a measure of the student's knowledge and skill but a formality for he/she has already shown the instructor the proficiency to be ready to test.


the grade is meaningless outside the context of the organisation that awards it. As long as they consistently apply the same method so as one green belt means the same as any other green belt then all is good.

putting someone through a test doesn't mean they have superior skills to one awarded on I going observation, in fact the opposite may be true, 

pressure inflicted in a test situation is not the same as presure arising from say a confrontation, measuring the ability to perform under one, doesn't mean they can perform under the other


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## marques (Sep 24, 2017)

A test may be a true test, not just a demonstration. It may be a written exam or assessment (I did), it may be something exceptional for evaluation purposes (as heavy sparring), or something quite usual, but in front of a jury rather than only one instructor.

I also graded in another school in order to jump a few levels and start sparring and going to more advanced classes. Again, it was needed because only one or two instructors there could grade and these ones didn't even know me before the evaluation. It also makes grading easier and fairer. Dozens of students do the same at the same time. The ones whom success pass. Simple.

Some schools don't grade at all (as Systema), which makes more difficult, at first, knowing where are the ones we should pay attention. 

All different, for different public. All fine.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> pressure inflicted in a test situation is not the same as presure arising from say a confrontation, measuring the ability to perform under one, doesn't mean they can perform under the other


This is key, IMO. Even the hardest tests I've been through didn't generate the fight-or-flight response as experienced when physical violence is imminent. I got value from the struggle of the test, but it wasn't (IMO) a way to get used to that kind of stress.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen this used three ways:
> 
> 
> As you describe - the test is a formality.
> ...



Particularly 3


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## FighterTwister (Sep 24, 2017)

Testing provides the student the right to pass or not based on how well they understand the subject matter in theory and practical application.

The specific criteria for each level, defines what is needed to master and demonstrate before moving up in rank.

First you should be aware of your own skills and self-assessing being true to yourself (knowing self or self-awareness is a good test of cahracter) and prove to the teacher that you have successfully accomplished the level and requirement’s met at that level and ready for the next.

In this way it really provides both the student a quality of achievement and rank well deserved and the teacher feedback that their training methods and structure of developing their members as martial artist is successful in teaching and preserving the martial art they teach in form and quality.

I personally think thats the correct approach to take because your are responsible as a teacher and guide and will eventually sign off as to whether they can go on and start their own practice as a qualified and proven martial artist in the style you teach.

The “Practical Assessment” is a demonstration of techniques and skills in a physical act of showing what you have mastered proving you’re ready for the next level.

The “Theoretical Assessment” is either understanding  terms and names of each movement and maybe some theory as to what it is that they are doing this could be part of the demonstration as well but tested as two parts in the assessment process if that makes any sense or a written examination of the theory that must be successfully met as requirements of assessment for approval of promotion to next rank.

Some instructors I have trained with do this as formal way of qualifying and testing the ability and knowledge as they move to senior ranks.


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## Danny T (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen this used three ways:
> 
> 
> As you describe - the test is a formality.
> ...


If performing under stress is a requirement or something you are making a judgement on have you not already seen them under stress? I agree stress is an important factor and as I've state already, I am testing my students all the time and other than those just beginning they know it. 
Every time I pull someone out to work with them, ask questions, have them show or demonstrate a technique then demonstrate and explain 3 different possible applications for that technique and 3 different counter and re-counters they are being tested. Now I want to see it done in sparring with different set ups.


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## Danny T (Sep 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> If the instructor sees that the student is ready.





PhotonGuy said:


> Particularly 3


If you haven't seen the student perform under stress as yet then you haven't seen the student is ready have you?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So I take it your school doesn't use a ranking system, not all schools and not all styles do.


Yup.


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## Danny T (Sep 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yup.


But there is a methodology I'm certain that the instructor/s utilize to know the training & learning is proper and the student is progressing even though there is no rank or formalized testing. There is a standard that a student must reach or attain before giving them more information or for the lack of better terms higher level information, yes?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> If performing under stress is a requirement or something you are making a judgement on have you not already seen them under stress? I agree stress is an important factor and as I've state already, I am testing my students all the time and other than those just beginning they know it.
> Every time I pull someone out to work with them, ask questions, have them show or demonstrate a technique then demonstrate and explain 3 different possible applications for that technique and 3 different counter and re-counters they are being tested. Now I want to see it done in sparring with different set ups.


The stress I'm referring to is the stress of being tested, of being under obvious scrutiny and singled out. There's some value in students learning to overcome and perform under that stress. The stress of standard performance (in the dojo, someone trying to punch them, for instance), yes that should already have been examined.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> If you haven't seen the student perform under stress as yet then you haven't seen the student is ready have you?


If that's something you're testing for (using a test format that induces that performance stress), I don't know how many instructors "mini-test" for that along the way. I can think of some ways to see at least some of the student's reaction.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> If you haven't seen the student perform under stress as yet then you haven't seen the student is ready have you?


That's the point of the test, to see the student perform under stress.


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## Danny T (Sep 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's the point of the test, to see the student perform under stress.


So you are saying the instructor really does not know it the student is ready. That is why I asked you what does ready mean. 
When it comes to testing under me, I know my student will pass because they have already done so. They have done so within the training, under pressure and stress, under several different scenarios with several persons and in sparring. When in a formal test the test isn't for me. It is for the student it is a confirmation to they not me, if they had not already passed the test they wouldn't be up for the formality of the test. Others do differently. I simple asked what does 'ready' mean?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> So you are saying the instructor really does not know it the student is ready. That is why I asked you what does ready mean.
> When it comes to testing under me, I know my student will pass because they have already done so. They have done so within the training, under pressure and stress, under several different scenarios with several persons and in sparring. When in a formal test the test isn't for me. It is for the student it is a confirmation to they not me, if they had not already passed the test they wouldn't be up for the formality of the test. Others do differently. I simple asked what does 'ready' mean?


To me, "ready" means "almost certain to pass".


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

I'm getting a bit lost here, you can't recreate the stress of someone say, trying to cave your head in with a club, by making people perform a dance in front of a few dozen people and a few judges. Ones a bit of stage fright, the other is life and death. Some people of course love to be centre of attention and show off, they won't even get the stage fright.

others will be cripes by it, but be more than able to calmly take the bat of an attacker,

if the stress caused by the exam has no carry over to ma in the real world, why even bother trying to measure performance against it ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm getting a bit lost here, you can't recreate the stress of someone say, trying to cave your head in with a club, by making people perform a dance in front of a few dozen people and a few judges. Ones a bit of stage fright, the other is life and death. Some people of course love to be centre of attention and show off, they won't even get the stage fright.
> 
> others will be cripes by it, but be more than able to calmly take the bat of an attacker,
> 
> if the stress caused by the exam has no carry over to ma in the real world, why even bother trying to measure performance against it ?


As I mentioned earlier, that stress is not (IMO) about preparing them for combat, but about preparing them for other challenges in life. It's something to overcome or deal with (for those who experience it in any quantity).

The only time I see it as directly relevant to MA is when they are nearing "instructor" level. For many, being a student in a test is nothing compared to the stress of the first time you have a bunch of students staring at you, and some are good enough to spot if you do something wrong.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> As I mentioned earlier, that stress is not (IMO) about preparing them for combat, but about preparing them for other challenges in life. It's something to overcome or deal with (for those who experience it in any quantity).
> 
> The only time I see it as directly relevant to MA is when they are nearing "instructor" level. For many, being a student in a test is nothing compared to the stress of the first time you have a bunch of students staring at you, and some are good enough to spot if you do something wrong.


it wasn't really you i was aiming my question at, we sort of agreed a few posts back, rather the others suggesting that testing under a pressure is " pressure testing" of the techniques.

there is certainly a pressure not to make a fool of yourself, that's if you actually care, but no pressure on the techneque, unless it in corporate someone try to hit you, or similar


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> it wasn't really you i was aiming my question at, we sort of agreed a few posts back, rather the others suggesting that testing under a pressure is " pressure testing" of the techniques.
> 
> there is certainly a pressure not to make a fool of yourself, that's if you actually care, but no pressure on the techneque, unless it in corporate someone try to hit you, or similar


what might spice it up was if the crowd all had apple they could throw at you during the test and you lose marks if any hit you


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial arts schools don't test students, rather they simply promote the student when the student is ready. The student might put on a demonstration with the purpose of showing off what they've learned and so forth but unless their performance affects the outcome, another words, unless there's the possibility of failing and not being promoted as well as the possibility of passing and being promoted than its not a test. Its a demonstration, plain and simple. Now, Im not saying such methods are wrong or bad but there are some schools that require a student to pass a test in order to be promoted. Their performance during the test determines whether they get promoted or not. Now, some might ask what's the point of having a test that the instructor should know if the student is ready or not to promote without having to test the student. Well, the point of testing the student is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you're taking a test and the outcome depends on how well you do there is a certain amount of psychological pressure that you have to deal with. So that's why some schools use tests.



It depends upon the school and really the chief instructor (owner or head of the school); if the school belongs to a bigger organization, the martial history of (traditions held within) the school, the business practices of the school (business models), all of these can help determine how the tests are done and what the purpose is for.   What some might see as bad according to their school's belief system might be great for another school; what some people see as abuse others see as necessary for a tough fighter, what some people see as sound business practices such as testing on a timed schedule and increasing belt fees (as a way to help fund the school), others tend to test students when they are ready and have set (that never rise) no test fees.   It all can be good.

As a member of a larger organization made up of of largely like minded independent karate/TKD schools we have flexibility in how we do things.   As my program has grown (still small by many standards) I have the ability to promote my students using my curriculum that is similar in many ways (such as kata, basics, etc. etc.) to the parent organization but it is different to reflect my martial arts studies outside of my primary art of TKD.

When I test my students it is in small tests made up of different ranks and sometimes the same rank.  My program is mostly kids so I grade them differently than young adults and adults.  For instance many times I will hold a student back if they are failing to do something like I had one student who stayed at a intermediate rank for 9 months (he was ready for the next rank in May) however he wouldn't correct his stances, and his kata performance was off (because his stances sucked etc. etc).  He knew the material, he could spar, kick high, etc. etc. but he wouldn't correct his stances and basics, he missed the test date and had to wait until August (the next test).   He finally shaped up and corrected things right before the exam, which I knew he could do so I approved him to test.  But I have another little girl who is extremely sensitive and tender hearted, for her her struggles are different from the boy being rebellious (in a sense).   It took her many months to get through her beginner level to be able to test for Green, in fact her brother tested at the same time for the same rank (he held himself back for her) and to look at both of them testing together for the same rank you would have thought I went to soft on her, but she hard the harder hill to climb and her brother is probably the rank above her skill wise.   I tell my students that if they give up they fail, but they have have earned the right to test and that they all can pass otherwise they wouldn't be standing in front of everyone.

So during the exams I throw them curve balls to put them under pressure, but unless they are going to give up (and fail) they will pass the exam.   I've had students throw up and get sick from stress during the test, others black out on kata, others get a hard hit during sparring etc. etc., many times running the exam I don't hear about it until afterwards.  But all of these students had to face individual challenges not to give up on the test  even though I pretty much guaranteed them their next rank as long as they didn't give up.  I believe the student earns the rank in class.    I believe it is important for the student to be "tested" in front of others, family and friends, and it isn't just a demonstration, but it is also an approval process.   That higher authorities (instructors) approved of me (the student) in front of my peers (class mates), my parents and friends.



jobo said:


> its much the same in school? What's best? An exam that shows a student can preform on the day under pressure, or course work that shows a level of consistent excellence over a longer period. Which of those is the fairest test and which gives the most accurate assessment of ability?.
> 
> i think continuous assessment is fairest and best, but personally I'm lazy but good at performing under pressure, so i do best at exams, i just use to copy other peoples course work, but you can't cheat at ma assessments unless you have,a twin



Jobo
I'm the exact opposite I do horrible at tests, and knowing this I think that continuous assessment is best as well.   My last test in 2011 for kobudo was my worst, it was for my 1st degree in kobudo.   It was also my first exam where I believed and accepted the fact that I failed and was prepared to face the embarrassment of being the 2nd highest rank (6th dan) on the floor failing a test that students of much lower rank than I (brown belts) were going to pass.  During the exam I blacked out on a kata (completely), I dropped my tonfa during a kata or rather it came flying out of my hand (due to carpal tunnel issues), but I still didn't give up.  I came out strong for all of my one steps etc. etc.   My first exam for Orange belt 30 yrs prior to that exam was just as bad with me doing all the blocks to the wrong names (it was in Korean).   Back then I still had to not give in to the shame and embarrassment of being the screw up on the floor.   My instructor then (in 1981) recognized what was happening and told us testing, that we earned our rank on the floor during class, that the exam was a formality.  My same instructor in 2011 explained to the class in so many words the similar points, when I screwed up that test. 

Leading up to the exam I was teaching my own students this same (kobudo) material, along with working out with others outside of normal classes (the monthly kobudo class and my regular classes) and basically had a better understanding of the material because of my training than probably everyone else on the floor testing.   Which the chief instructors acknowledged by passing me, they knew me, they knew I had a bad day.

I share this because 36 years ago had my instructor made me feel like I was a screw up in front of everyone as we tested and failed me, I probably would have dropped out, but he didn't, he used my screw ups on a test to teach me (and those there that listened) a very important lesson.   I needed the martial arts because it helped me way beyond just getting and advancing in rank.  Now I'm the one who is guiding my students and taking on that responsibility.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> what might spice it up was if the crowd all had apple they could throw at you during the test and you lose marks if any hit you


Don't give people any ideas, Jobo. That's just funny enough to be worth doing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> So during the exams I throw them curve balls to put them under pressure, but unless they are going to give up (and fail) they will pass the exam. I've had students throw up and get sick from stress during the test, others black out on kata, others get a hard hit during sparring etc. etc., many times running the exam I don't hear about it until afterwards. But all of these students had to face individual challenges not to give up on the test even though I pretty much guaranteed them their next rank as long as they didn't give up. I believe the student earns the rank in class. I believe it is important for the student to be "tested" in front of others, family and friends, and it isn't just a demonstration, but it is also an approval process. That higher authorities (instructors) approved of me (the student) in front of my peers (class mates), my parents and friends.



I haven't gotten to the point where I throw curve balls during a test yet, but likely will as students progress. My own instructor had a policy for black belt tests that something had to be corrected on the spot. He'd pick something that was arguably wrong, and make you correct it before you could go to the next technique. The point was to put you under some stress, and to see if you could make a correction on the spot (something he feels is important for that rank/level).

I've thought about the idea of testing in front of a group. We never did it. Most tests were just the testee, the instructor (maybe an instructor-in-training, too), and a partner for the parts that required a partner. The scenario tests included all the students of a specified rank, but the doors were closed to everyone else - both students and observers. I like the idea of putting at least some of that in front of a group, though that only works when a group is available. Do you often have non-student observers for adult tests?


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> So you are saying the instructor really does not know it the student is ready. That is why I asked you what does ready mean.
> When it comes to testing under me, I know my student will pass because they have already done so. They have done so within the training, under pressure and stress, under several different scenarios with several persons and in sparring. When in a formal test the test isn't for me. It is for the student it is a confirmation to they not me, if they had not already passed the test they wouldn't be up for the formality of the test. Others do differently. I simple asked what does 'ready' mean?



Some students might appear ready, they might have the techniques down, they might have good adequate skill, but then when they take the test they fail. Why? Because they froze up during the test or they let their nerves get the better of them and so they didn't perform up to par. So some instructors might see that a student is ready in terms of knowledge, skill, and technique but the student might still not be ready in terms of being able to function under the pressure of a test. So how do you find out if the student is ready to function under such pressure? By the student taking the test.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The only time I see it as directly relevant to MA is when they are nearing "instructor" level. For many, being a student in a test is nothing compared to the stress of the first time you have a bunch of students staring at you, and some are good enough to spot if you do something wrong.



That's why you start out as an assistant instructor. And as an assistant instructor you will mostly be teaching students who are beginners, students who are white belts and maybe students who are a belt or a few belts higher.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some students might appear ready, they might have the techniques down, they might have good adequate skill, but then when they take the test they fail. Why? Because they froze up during the test or they let their nerves get the better of them and so they didn't perform up to par. So some instructors might see that a student is ready in terms of knowledge, skill, and technique but the student might still not be ready in terms of being able to function under the pressure of a test. So how do you find out if the student is ready to function under such pressure? By the student taking the test.


but that would just be stage fright, the justification for having a test seems to that the,student may fail, for,a reason that has nothing to do with their ma,ability, that's just odd!


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's why you start out as an assistant instructor. And as an assistant instructor you will mostly be teaching students who are beginners, students who are white belts and maybe students who are a belt or a few belts higher.


Agreed, except for the ranks. As a student instructor, I was expected to be able to teach any of the techniques, so I could have students of any rank, under the supervision of the chief instructor of the school. As an associate instructor (I'm not sure which you would equate to "assistant instructor"), I had to run classes without backup (so, no chief instructor present). There's an extra stress that first time you are in front of a class with no backup. It gets easier pretty quickly for some folks, more slowly for others. I think I had it easier than most, because of some experience outside MA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> but that would just be stage fright, the justification for having a test seems to that the,student may fail, for,a reason that has nothing to do with their ma,ability, that's just odd!



For some of us, we're hoping to provide tools that help beyond just MA ability. If that is part of the goal, tests that go beyond MA ability aren't that odd.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

It's worth noting that although the stress of being under scrutiny isn't the same as the stress of being under attack, they do utilize most of the same systems (both psychologically and physiologically). Mastering oneself under one of them likely provides some benefit under the other, though I know of no research to support (or contradict) that.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's worth noting that although the stress of being under scrutiny isn't the same as the stress of being under attack, they do utilize most of the same systems (both psychologically and physiologically). Mastering oneself under one of them likely provides some benefit under the other, though I know of no research to support (or contradict) that.


hmm, i don't like birds near me, though i cope quite,well with doing a talk to a,couple of hundred people, decreasing my stress at public speaking has not helped one bit with my bird stress, i have great doubts that if someone,attacks me with an axe, its going to be much help there either,


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I haven't gotten to the point where I throw curve balls during a test yet, but likely will as students progress. My own instructor had a policy for black belt tests that something had to be corrected on the spot. He'd pick something that was arguably wrong, and make you correct it before you could go to the next technique. The point was to put you under some stress, and to see if you could make a correction on the spot (something he feels is important for that rank/level).
> 
> I've thought about the idea of testing in front of a group. We never did it. Most tests were just the testee, the instructor (maybe an instructor-in-training, too), and a partner for the parts that required a partner. The scenario tests included all the students of a specified rank, but the doors were closed to everyone else - both students and observers. I like the idea of putting at least some of that in front of a group, though that only works when a group is available. Do you often have non-student observers for adult tests?



Well curve balls might be something as simple as having a beginner student doing a rear leg front kick moving forward to doing a front kick with the front leg going then moving backwards.  For a beginning student this could be a challenge, not hard but still something they might not have done a lot if ever in the Yellow belt class.   So what if it takes them a few tries, do they give up or buckle down and try harder?  I might have the students face different directions (and/or) doing different kata at the same time so that they can't rely on watching others.  On my black belt exam my instructor called me out on the floor to face another instructor who pulled out a pair of nunchaku and I was told to take them away from him.    They still laugh about how big my eyes got.

Generally my tests were at my instructor's home dojo and in attendance were those testing, those helping out, the instructors and maybe a friend or family member or two.   At my shodan test in his home dojo; my parents, my brother, and sister, were the only outsiders present.  First time any of them ever saw what I did by practicing karate.   Although I had some tests in regular schools, and at seminars, gyms, etc. etc. my main tests in the karate/TKD were at the home dojo.  Which was a two car garage which was converted to his dojo.  We had 7 black belt board members, 2-3 brown belts to spar with, plus a couple of 1st dans who were my dojo mates (going for 2nd I think) all in a 20 X20 ft garage in TX heat in August  with no AC nor exit but the side door for ventilation.

In regards to my adult tests I try and have other instructors come and sit on the exam boards; but my adults is my Presas Arnis class, my younger students do the TKD.  At our last Presas Arnis test we had more board members than students testing.  We had instructors from as far away as Houston (5 hrs), Stephenville (1 1/2 hrs), Dallas (1 hr), Grand Prairie (1 hr) all to support our school.  Plus we had family and friends of the students testing.


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## Danny T (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> hmm, i don't like birds near me, though i cope quite,well with doing a talk to a,couple of hundred people, decreasing my stress at public speaking has not helped one bit with my bird stress, i have great doubts that if someone,attacks me with an axe, its going to be much help there either,


Yep.
The affects of stress is the same.
Being prepared for one cause of stress is not going to prepare you for a different cause.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

my attitude to this topic is coloured by my glass half empty attitude, i cant see the point taking any test where the result is a get a grade/ belt that tells me and the world I'm not very good,  if it was a test for something worth while like a black belt then i might. jump through some hoops to get it, BUT for  a green belt I'm not getting phyced up about it and I'm not performing tricks to an audience, they can either give it to me on merit or i won't bother .


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> hmm, i don't like birds near me, though i cope quite,well with doing a talk to a,couple of hundred people, decreasing my stress at public speaking has not helped one bit with my bird stress, i have great doubts that if someone,attacks me with an axe, its going to be much help there either,


It's unlikely to be a large effect, in any case. As I said, I haven't seen any research on whether there's a link, and if so, under what circumstances.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> but that would just be stage fright, the justification for having a test seems to that the,student may fail, for,a reason that has nothing to do with their ma,ability, that's just odd!


Dealing with stage fright can be a requirement for advancement. Much of the martial arts is mental and that involves dealing with emotional and psychological challenges.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Dealing with stage fright can be a requirement for advancement. Much of the martial arts is mental and that involves dealing with emotional and psychological challenges.


its only a requirement for advancement at ma, if you keep doing tests, get rid of the tests and its no disadvantage at 
all


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> its only a requirement for advancement at ma, if you keep doing tests, get rid of the tests and its no disadvantage at
> all


Or for performing at competitions, or delivering demonstrations, or for teaching.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Or for performing at competitions, or delivering demonstrations, or for teaching.


non of those are actually an advancement of ma, ability.
you could argue they may eventually lead to an advancement, but just doing them it not in its,self an advancement of,ability


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## Flying Crane (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> But there is a methodology I'm certain that the instructor/s utilize to know the training & learning is proper and the student is progressing even though there is no rank or formalized testing. There is a standard that a student must reach or attain before giving them more information or for the lack of better terms higher level information, yes?


Of course.  Sifu decides.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> non of those are actually an advancement of ma, ability.
> you could argue they may eventually lead to an advancement, but just doing them it not in its,self an advancement of,ability


Those are all parts of some people's MA journey. As such, they are part of MA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course.  Sifu decides.


I think Danny's point is that Sifu's decision is not that much different from a BJJ instructor deciding it's time to award a blue belt, or my decision that it's time to test a student on the first set, so I can move them to the second.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> my attitude to this topic is coloured by my glass half empty attitude, i cant see the point taking any test where the result is a get a grade/ belt that tells me and the world I'm not very good,  if it was a test for something worth while like a black belt then i might. jump through some hoops to get it, BUT for  a green belt I'm not getting phyced up about it and I'm not performing tricks to an audience, they can either give it to me on merit or i won't bother .



And this is why nobody will remember your name.

One thing I have noticed with the guys who are really successful is there is no not bothering.

Our guys do a fight camp before a fight which hopefully puts them in the best position to succeed in their test.

If belts were treated the same way I think it would produce better martial artists.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Those are all parts of some people's MA journey. As such, they are part of MA.


an ma journey perhaps, but not an advancement of ma ability, which is what you said they were


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## JR 137 (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed, except for the ranks. As a student instructor, I was expected to be able to teach any of the techniques, so I could have students of any rank, under the supervision of the chief instructor of the school. As an associate instructor (I'm not sure which you would equate to "assistant instructor"), I had to run classes without backup (so, no chief instructor present). There's an extra stress that first time you are in front of a class with no backup. It gets easier pretty quickly for some folks, more slowly for others. I think I had it easier than most, because of some experience outside MA.


The most stressful thing for me was when I was an assistant instructor (I was a brown belt at the time). My sensei had me assisting him in class, then had me teach a few on my own (he was always in the office or lurking and giving me feedback afterwards).  I got pretty confident, then one day my sensei  decided to line up as a student in my class. Talk about not wanting to mess up.

If I genuinely didn't know the answer to a student's question, I'd always say "I'll ask sensei and let you know."  Well, a student asked a question early on in class that I couldn't answer (he didn't do it on purpose). I looked over at my sensei, and he just grinned and shrugged his shoulders.  I told the student "I don't know, but I'll ask sensei when he's available and let you know."  According to my sensei I did great and I didn't appear to be nervous.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> an ma journey perhaps, but not an advancement of ma ability, which is what you said they were


No, actually, I didn't. Go back and look at my posts.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And this is why nobody will remember your name.
> 
> One thing I have noticed with the guys who are really successful is there is no not bothering.


I'm not , not bothering to lean and improve my ma, i am not bothering to perform like a circus seal in order to get a grade that means nothing at all to me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The most stressful thing for me was when I was an assistant instructor (I was a brown belt at the time). My sensei had me assisting him in class, then had me teach a few on my own (he was always in the office or lurking and giving me feedback afterwards).  I got pretty confident, then one day my sensei  decided to line up as a student in my class. Talk about not wanting to mess up.
> 
> If I genuinely didn't know the answer to a student's question, I'd always say "I'll ask sensei and let you know."  Well, a student asked a question early on in class that I couldn't answer (he didn't do it on purpose). I looked over at my sensei, and he just grinned and shrugged his shoulders.  I told the student "I don't know, but I'll ask sensei when he's available and let you know."  According to my sensei I did great and I didn't appear to be nervous.


That sounds nerve-wracking. I'm doing that the first chance I get!


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm not , not bothering to lean and improve my ma, i am not bothering to perform like a circus seal in order to get a grade that means nothing at all to me.


The grade is just a marker along the way. The testing shouldn't be a big deal if you're making progress - just more of the stuff you do in classes, but being checked for specific problems you might need to work on (very much like what your instructor does in classes). If you don't like tests, move to a style that doesn't use them. You'll still be checked for specific problems you might need to work on, and evaluated from time to time to see if you're ready for some sort of next level of information and training.


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No, actually, I didn't. Go back and look at my posts.


you added your ridder on the the end of my sentence on advancement, of ma ability


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The grade is just a marker along the way. The testing shouldn't be a big deal if you're making progress - just more of the stuff you do in classes, but being checked for specific problems you might need to work on (very much like what your instructor does in classes). If you don't like tests, move to a style that doesn't use them. You'll still be checked for specific problems you might need to work on, and evaluated from time to time to see if you're ready for some sort of next level of information and training.


no, I'm just declining  to take them, I'm aware of my progress or lack of it, the test has no value to me


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## jobo (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The grade is just a marker along the way. The testing shouldn't be a big deal if you're making progress - just more of the stuff you do in classes, but being checked for specific problems you might need to work on (very much like what your instructor does in classes). If you don't like tests, move to a style that doesn't use them. You'll still be checked for specific problems you might need to work on, and evaluated from time to time to see if you're ready for some sort of next level of information and training.


no, I'm just,declining to take them, I'm aware of my progress


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course.  Sifu decides.



So when your sifu sees that a student is ready to learn more material he teaches the student that material and there is no need for rank.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think Danny's point is that Sifu's decision is not that much different from a BJJ instructor deciding it's time to award a blue belt, or my decision that it's time to test a student on the first set, so I can move them to the second.


It is less formal, there is no belt and no rank.  It's just, "ok, come here, let me show you something..." like any other training day.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So when your sifu sees that a student is ready to learn more material he teaches the student that material and there is no need for rank.


Yup.  It's an ongoing process.  we just show up and train and some days Sifu teaches something new, and other days he does not.  Nothing mysterious about it.


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## Danny T (Sep 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course.  Sifu decides.


And that decision is base on the student being ready.
As my Sifu has impressed upon me "Give them what they need when they are ready for it. Let them see some of what they want but only give them what they need until they are ready for more."


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## Flying Crane (Sep 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> And that decision is base on the student being ready.
> As my Sifu has impressed upon me "Give them what they need when they are ready for it. Let them see some of what they want but only give them what they need until they are ready for more."


Yes.  And?  I don't understand what is revolutionary about any of this...


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## Danny T (Sep 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes.  And?  I don't understand what is revolutionary about any of this...


I can also see that others value an award system as belts/rank with testing to a standard.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Sep 24, 2017)

In my Karate class you have to be ready to test before you get promoted if your not ready to test you wil not get promoted until your ready you cant just test right away and not knowing your stuff you will look foolish infront of the judges in my class we have a term called green light green light is the term when your ready to test you have all your requirement ready and get ready to test for example when the Sifu said Mike i gave you the green light it means its the sign that you are going to test In My school you will get 2 tips also 1 for the sets and form and the other is for the basic and technique when you have the 2 tip your ready to test. if your in the advance class and you are green to black belt you havve either june or december to test the Sifu will always say your ready to test in june or he might say to the other student your ready to test on december but ypu have to past the pre test before you do the real test and its hard not easy


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## drop bear (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm not , not bothering to lean and improve my ma, i am not bothering to perform like a circus seal in order to get a grade that means nothing at all to me.



Do you only bother to do part of what is needed to be a martial artist? 

Do you think people who compete are better at their martial arts?


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yup.  It's an ongoing process.  we just show up and train and some days Sifu teaches something new, and other days he does not.  Nothing mysterious about it.


I see. Well obviously that system works where you train. Right now I am doing Goju Ryu. Certain material you don't learn until you advance in rank. Right after I was promoted from white to yellow I was taught some new techniques and some new forms which I was not taught as a white belt. I had just passed the yellow belt test although I was still wearing a physical white belt when I was taught new stuff since my instructor had not yet picked up my new yellow belt.


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## jobo (Sep 25, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Do you only bother to do part of what is needed to be a martial artist?
> 
> Do you think people who compete are better at their martial arts?


i don't consider my self a martial artist, it not really an English expression, I'm certainly not good enough to consider myself an artist, I'm a middle aged bloke learning karate. I'm as good as i am and will be as good as i can be. Having,a grades test will not make me better, much less better sooner.

the lower belts use a kata demonstration as the test, I'm not good at dancing , i refuse to take kata seriously as a test of my karate ability. There are people of a higher grade who i can knock over with ease, their grades haven't made them better than i am. They spend Time. Learning kata, i spend time getting fitter and,stronger and faster.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 25, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I can also see that others value an award system as belts/rank with testing to a standard.


Sure.  But I was getting the impression some folks were trying to equate the fact that sifu decided when it is time to teach something new, with a test and a promotion.

It is most definitely not the same thing.


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## Danny T (Sep 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure.  But I was getting the impression some folks were trying to equate the fact that sifu decided when it is time to teach something new, with a test and a promotion.
> 
> It is most definitely not the same thing.


In some schools and some organizations it is and so that is the only way they know how to relate it.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 25, 2017)

Danny T said:


> In some schools and some organizations it is and so that is the only way they know how to relate it.


I think that would be an extreme, tho.  That implies that every new technique and idea brings with it a test and promotion.  I'm sure every school has some body of curriculum that is taught between promotions.  Ours is the same, just remove the tests and promotions altogether.


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## Danny T (Sep 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that would be an extreme, tho.  That implies that every new technique and idea brings with it a test and promotion.  I'm sure every school has some body of curriculum that is taught between promotions.  Ours is the same, just remove the tests and promotions altogether.


I am talking about the curriculum.


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## drop bear (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> i don't consider my self a martial artist, it not really an English expression, I'm certainly not good enough to consider myself an artist, I'm a middle aged bloke learning karate. I'm as good as i am and will be as good as i can be. Having,a grades test will not make me better, much less better sooner.
> 
> the lower belts use a kata demonstration as the test, I'm not good at dancing , i refuse to take kata seriously as a test of my karate ability. There are people of a higher grade who i can knock over with ease, their grades haven't made them better than i am. They spend Time. Learning kata, i spend time getting fitter and,stronger and faster.



You are not in competition with them. You are in competition with you.

I am a small fish in a big pond so my opinion on training progression is different.

I am not knocking guys over who are more goal oriented than me.


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## jobo (Sep 25, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You are not in competition with them. You are in competition with you.
> 
> I am a small fish in a big pond so my opinion on training progression is different.
> 
> I am not knocking guys over who are more goal oriented than me.


but its fighting. You are by defintion in competition with someone


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## Danny T (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> but its fighting. You are by defintion in competition with someone


One of the differences in being a martial artist and something else...fighting.
There is far more to being a martial artist than being a fighter though we use fighting methodologies. Many are in the martial arts for fighting, many are not. Many are not in competition with anyone other than themselves. Hard for some to understand but there you go.


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## jobo (Sep 25, 2017)

Danny T said:


> One of the differences in being a martial artist and something else...fighting.
> There is far more to being a martial artist than being a fighter though we use fighting methodologies. Many are in the martial arts for fighting, many are not. Many are not in competition with anyone other than themselves. Hard for some to understand but there you go.


but no matter how you dress it up,, if you are good at MARTIAL arts you are good at fighting. If your not good at fighting your not good at martial arts, to pretend otherwise is fantasy,


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## Danny T (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> but no matter how you dress it up,, if you are good at MARTIAL arts you are good at fighting. If your not good at fighting your not good at martial arts, to pretend otherwise is fantasy,


I do know and have seen even more who are excellent and excel in some aspects of the martial arts but are poor fighters.


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## jobo (Sep 25, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I do know and have seen even more who are excellent and excel in some aspects of the martial arts but are poor fighters.


well they are not good at the martials,arts then, they may be good at dancing or yoga or flower arranging, but that isn't the purpose of the ma


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## Danny T (Sep 25, 2017)

They are good at different aspects of martial arts. There is more to Martial Arts than just fighting. 
Look I understand your premise and understand 'your' consideration as to what the martial arts are...to you.
What you don't or won't consider is the Martial Arts as a whole is more than fighting or being able to fight. 
I don't like that there persons who are high level martial artist who can not fight but that is a fact.


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## JR 137 (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> but no matter how you dress it up,, if you are good at MARTIAL arts you are good at fighting. If your not good at fighting your not good at martial arts, to pretend otherwise is fantasy,


But you don't have to be a good fighter to be a good teacher.  Cus D'Amato trained 3 hall of fame boxers   - Floyd Patterson, Jose Torres, and Mike Tyson.  He also mentored at least two great trainers - Teddy Atlas and Kevin Rooney.  Rooney had some success as a pro, Atlas didn't.  D'Amato never fought professionally.

If boxing is a martial art, D'Amato, Rooney and Atlas are great martial artists.  Yet none of them were great fighters.


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## jobo (Sep 25, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> But you don't have to be a good fighter to be a good teacher.  Cus D'Amato trained 3 hall of fame boxers   - Floyd Patterson, Jose Torres, and Mike Tyson.  He also mentored at least two great trainers - Teddy Atlas and Kevin Rooney.  Rooney had some success as a pro, Atlas didn't.  D'Amato never fought professionally.
> 
> If boxing is a martial art, D'Amato, Rooney and Atlas are great martial artists.  Yet none of them were great fighters.


no they are great trainers, you don't have to be a great runner to train runners, but on n the other hand if you train a great runner, that doesn't make you a great runner or even any sort of runner, just a great trainer


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> you added your ridder on the the end of my sentence on advancement, of ma ability


Pointing out what else it was applicable to.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> no, I'm just declining  to take them, I'm aware of my progress or lack of it, the test has no value to me


As I said, you'll still be examined, regardless of whether you take a test or wear a colored belt. The test is just an extra tool for your instructor. If you choose to forego that tool, I'm not sure why you're training at that school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> It is less formal, there is no belt and no rank.  It's just, "ok, come here, let me show you something..." like any other training day.


I understand. There concept is the same. When I awarded my students their belts, there was nothing formal about it. I actually strangled each with their new belt in a demonstration during class, then told them to go change it before they rejoined the class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2017)

Danny T said:


> And that decision is base on the student being ready.
> As my Sifu has impressed upon me "Give them what they need when they are ready for it. Let them see some of what they want but only give them what they need until they are ready for more."


I think the only difference is the "ready" applies to a single piece of information in his case, and to a "next" group of information when talking about tying curriculum to rank and/or tests.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes.  And?  I don't understand what is revolutionary about any of this...


There's nothing revolutionary about it. I think that's the point. The process is pretty similar, belts/tests or no.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure.  But I was getting the impression some folks were trying to equate the fact that sifu decided when it is time to teach something new, with a test and a promotion.
> 
> It is most definitely not the same thing.


I see it as very similar. I do both in my program. I determine when a student is ready for their next bit of information. And from time to time, I decide they are probably ready for the next group of bits of information. When I decide the former, they get something new. When I decide the latter, they get a test where I look for any systemic issues I want to fix before they move to the next group of bits.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> but no matter how you dress it up,, if you are good at MARTIAL arts you are good at fighting. If your not good at fighting your not good at martial arts, to pretend otherwise is fantasy,


That depends how people define "martial arts". Many folks include arts derived from martial/combat/fight training, even if combat/fighting is no longer a focus.


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## JR 137 (Sep 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That depends how people define "martial arts". Many folks include arts derived from martial/combat/fight training, even if combat/fighting is no longer a focus.


Such as sword arts and kobudo/kobujitsu.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that would be an extreme, tho.  That implies that every new technique and idea brings with it a test and promotion.  I'm sure every school has some body of curriculum that is taught between promotions.  Ours is the same, just remove the tests and promotions altogether.


So are there different classes for beginner, intermediate, and advanced students? Most sports and activities do function like that even if they don't have official ranking systems they do have different classes depending on the levels of the students.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> no, I'm just,declining to take them, I'm aware of my progress


Not everybody cares about earning rank but if you do go to a school that uses rank and you don't eventually go up in rank you might not be taught some of the more advanced material. Often, a school will not teach a student certain material until they reach a certain rank.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 26, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So are there different classes for beginner, intermediate, and advanced students? Most sports and activities do function like that even if they don't have official ranking systems they do have different classes depending on the levels of the students.


No, but we are a very small group who meets in his back yard.  Still, traditionally, Chinese martial arts did not use belts and tanks the way the Japanese systems do.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I see it as very similar. I do both in my program. I determine when a student is ready for their next bit of information. And from time to time, I decide they are probably ready for the next group of bits of information. When I decide the former, they get something new. When I decide the latter, they get a test where I look for any systemic issues I want to fix before they move to the next group of bits.


Ok, well in our case, it's just training and running a class.  It is not testing and promoting.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There's nothing revolutionary about it. I think that's the point. The process is pretty similar, belts/tests or no.


Except that in our case there are no tests and no belts.  We just train and sifu teaches.


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## jobo (Sep 26, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Such as sword arts and kobudo/kobujitsu.


but you are still training how to effectively use what ever weapon it may be, so the same criteria applies, how good you are is dependent on how well you can utilise the weapon.


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## jobo (Sep 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> As I said, you'll still be examined, regardless of whether you take a test or wear a colored belt. The test is just an extra tool for your instructor. If you choose to forego that tool, I'm not sure why you're training at that school.


no i cant be examined, with out an examination, i can be assessed,
i like the school, and the teacher and the stuff I'm learning, plus they let me take my dog along


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## Tarrycat (Sep 26, 2017)

We don't make use of public displays like promotions whenever we are tested (although, I like it, it's entertaining & you meet a lot of new people who are like-minded). 

However, some Genbukan schools have what they call a "Tai Kai", where hundreds of students from all over the world gather in a selected country, where they train together. I speak under correction; I THINK the grandmaster joins the event in order to teach, giving all students the opportunity to train with him. I've seen an event like this on Youtube when Masaaki Hatsumi attended it.

During these events, students will also be granted the opportunity to grade if they feel ready. 

In our dojo, my Sensei will observe your progress & decide when you're ready to grade. You can say that he tests you as you're transitioning to the next level. 

We do have formal dates set for grading, & we have time to prepare. However, we cannot prepare for attacks; we have to practice the kata at home. 

I agree that testing under pressure is a good thing - I think that how well your mind is trained will reflect in your kata when you're in public surroundings.


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## Tarrycat (Sep 26, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> We don't make use of public displays like promotions whenever we are tested (although, I like it, it's entertaining & you meet a lot of new people who are like-minded).
> 
> However, some Genbukan schools have what they call a "Tai Kai", where hundreds of students from all over the world gather in a selected country, where they train together. I speak under correction; I THINK the grandmaster joins the event in order to teach, giving all students the opportunity to train with him. I've seen an event like this on Youtube when Masaaki Hatsumi attended it.
> 
> ...




As for why testing is needed; it's to observe if the student is actually making progress. It makes the Sensei aware of which kata the students are struggling with & enables them to take a different approach to their teaching, if needed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, well in our case, it's just training and running a class.  It is not testing and promoting.


My point is that, for me at least, the testing and promoting is just one part of the process. It's how I chunk up the curriculum, more than anything else. I'd say it's a bit like what I've heard from folks in Wing Chun, where they learn one form for a while, then when they are adept enough at that, they add another form. A similar process for me, except I change a belt color and have a bit of testing between. I rather like both ways, and seriously considered ditching student belt colors and just going with white (student) and black (instructor), or even just having everyone (myself included) wear white. In the end, it was easier to maintain what I was used to, so I kept colored belts and adjusted curriculum to make them fit my approach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Except that in our case there are no tests and no belts.  We just train and sifu teaches.


Agreed. As I said, to me the only difference is really that I have belts and do a test every year or so. The approach is much the same.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> no i cant be examined, with out an examination, i can be assessed,
> i like the school, and the teacher and the stuff I'm learning, plus they let me take my dog along


Do you think it must be a formal test for someone to examine your progress?


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## jobo (Sep 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Do you think it must be a formal test for someone to examine your progress?


no i think by defintion that an exam requires an examination,
i also think an exam must be to verify the standard i have reached, not the progress i have made, though you will try to,argue that its the same thing it clearly isnt, grades,are awarded based on having demonstrated the required level, they do not measure progress,  , i may have made no progress at all since the last grade, but,still meet the requirements of this grade


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> no i think by defintion that an exam requires an examination,
> i also think an exam must be to verify the standard i have reached, not the progress i have made, though you will try to,argue that its the same thing it clearly isnt, grades,are awarded based on having demonstrated the required level, they do not measure progress,  , i may have made no progress at all since the last grade, but,still meet the requirements of this grade


Examining you doesn't require a formal test:

First definition of examine: "verb (used with object), examined, examining. 1. to inspect or scrutinize carefully"

I examine students' techniques every class. I test them maybe once a year.


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## FighterTwister (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> no i think by defintion that an exam requires an examination,
> i also think an exam must be to verify the standard i have reached, not the progress i have made, though you will try to,argue that its the same thing it clearly isnt, grades,are awarded based on having demonstrated the required level, they do not measure progress,  , i may have made no progress at all since the last grade, but,still meet the requirements of this grade



Yes I 100% agree with this statement as the only correct view to have.

The standard is the target set by the teacher, and the target is an achievement reached by the student!

Hence the examination should be "Practical and Theoretical" ...... imho


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> no i think by defintion that an exam requires an examination,
> i also think an exam must be to verify the standard i have reached, not the progress i have made, though you will try to,argue that its the same thing it clearly isnt, grades,are awarded based on having demonstrated the required level, they do not measure progress,  , i may have made no progress at all since the last grade, but,still meet the requirements of this grade


Oh, and don't try to assume what I will argue. You are actually correct that a test typically actually measures against a standard. Making progress in that area may not be necessary. If I were to test one student's kicks every year for a new rank, he would never need to make any progress (in that area) to get each new rank, because he entered the school with kick (from prior training) that would meet my standards for black belt. However, a good instructor isn't only testing to the standard. They will want to see progress overall (not necessarily in a single area, like that student's kicks). If someone gets their yellow belt and isn't any better a year or two later when they test for orange, there's a problem. Either they aren't trying, or I'm not a good instructor for them. The only exception would be if they were simply already so skilled that they aren't likely to make much progress in a year, in which case, why haven't I promoted them higher?


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## JR 137 (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you are still training how to effectively use what ever weapon it may be, so the same criteria applies, how good you are is dependent on how well you can utilise the weapon.


Yes, but realistically speaking those weapons aren't used for fighting anymore.  People don't typically challenge each other to a duel with samurai swords, people don't typically bust out nunchucks, etc.


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## jobo (Sep 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Examining you doesn't require a formal test:
> 
> First definition of examine: "verb (used with object), examined, examining. 1. to inspect or scrutinize carefully"
> 
> I examine students' techniques every class. I test them maybe once a year.



you appear to be putting a test of ability higher up the hierarchy than an examination of ability, , that's not the ussual way round.

you seem to be using test ,examination and,assessment as inter changeable words, when they denote quite different things


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## jobo (Sep 26, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Yes, but realistically speaking those weapons aren't used for fighting anymore.  People don't typically challenge each other to a duel with samurai swords, people don't typically bust out nunchucks, etc.


well no, people don't ussual challenge each other to pistols at dawn either, but yet lots of people with guns,spend time at the range practising,c how to use them effectively, just in case


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> you appear to be putting a test of ability higher up the hierarchy than an examination of ability, , that's not the ussual way round.
> 
> you seem to be using test ,examination and,assessment as inter changeable words, when they denote quite different things


I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first sentence, Jobo (not saying there's anything wrong with it, I'm just not following the meaning).

Test and examination are sometimes used interchangeably, though I don't think I've used "examination" - I typically use the word "test" for that. Examine and assess are not the same, but closely related. When I examine a student's technique, I am making an assessment of their progress.


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## jobo (Sep 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first sentence, Jobo (not saying there's anything wrong with it, I'm just not following the meaning).
> 
> Test and examination are sometimes used interchangeably, though I don't think I've used "examination" - I typically use the word "test" for that. Examine and assess are not the same, but closely related. When I examine a student's technique, I am making an assessment of their progress.


, in the sphere of learning, as apposed to going to the doctors or the mechanic, then a test has a,very different meaning than a examination. You can using semantics argue, that a test examines and an exam tests. But they are completely different concepts.
MA seems not to follow other leaning models and uses the term test, when it would be an examination in most other learning environments.
that's only really a problem if you then merge the two when discussing learning and validation theory.which is what we are discussing here. I want to use the,accepted academic defintions and you don't. Hence our confusion at the point the other one is making


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 26, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> No, but we are a very small group who meets in his back yard.  Still, traditionally, Chinese martial arts did not use belts and tanks the way the Japanese systems do.


I see. If its a small group than there would not need to be separate classes for different students at different levels. The uniform of traditional Chinese systems often did use a belt but it had nothing to do with rank, it was simply a part of the uniform. The color of the belt, usually a red belt, would not change. You would start with a red belt and you would finish with a red belt.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 26, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. If its a small group than there would not need to be separate classes for different students at different levels. The uniform of traditional Chinese systems often did use a belt but it had nothing to do with rank, it was simply a part of the uniform. The color of the belt, usually a red belt, would not change. You would start with a red belt and you would finish with a red belt.


Well, actually those uniforms were rarely worn.  They might be worn for a formal demonstration or a special event, but not typically for training.  Most schools wear something pretty low-key, some workout pants and a tee-shirt, often with no sash.  That might vary from school to school, and might vary if the school is more commercial and open to the public vs. a smaller, more private arrangement such as my school.

Some Chinese schools have adopted the use of belts and ranks similar to their Japanese counterparts, but that is a modern adaptation and is not consistent by a long shot.

Actually to be truthful, my sifu did use a ranking system back in the 1970s when he had an open, more commercial school.  He closed that a long time ago and has only been teaching a handful of students in his back yard ever since.  While I have been aware of the ranks, in the time I have trained with him there has been zero emphasis on testing and ranking.  It seems to be something left in the past.


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## JR 137 (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> well no, people don't ussual challenge each other to pistols at dawn either, but yet lots of people with guns,spend time at the range practising,c how to use them effectively, just in case



I'm sure there's someone in the world defending him/herself with a gun at any given minute.  There is a realistic point to training it.  I haven't ever felt the need nor desire to, but it's not because I feel a gun is something I'll genuinely never need.

I can say any of the above about any traditional MA weapons, samurai sword or other sword included.

So a person who trains in a sword art, or archery or any other similar can be a very good martial artist without ever having to actually use those skills outside of training, nor have to be a good fighter.

I don't know... what was the real point to this sidetrack anyway?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> , in the sphere of learning, as apposed to going to the doctors or the mechanic, then a test has a,very different meaning than a examination. You can using semantics argue, that a test examines and an exam tests. But they are completely different concepts.
> MA seems not to follow other leaning models and uses the term test, when it would be an examination in most other learning environments.
> that's only really a problem if you then merge the two when discussing learning and validation theory.which is what we are discussing here. I want to use the,accepted academic defintions and you don't. Hence our confusion at the point the other one is making


You are the one arguing semantics. The term "exam" is common usage for an important test. You just must try to find something wrong with my statement, so are attempting to force it to mean something besides what you know quite well it meant.


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## jobo (Sep 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You are the one arguing semantics. The term "exam" is common usage for an important test. You just must try to find something wrong with my statement, so are attempting to force it to mean something besides what you know quite well it meant.


it means nothing,as you won't define the terms you are using,
when you have decided what is a test and what is an exam, a discussion might have some point,


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 26, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, actually those uniforms were rarely worn.  They might be worn for a formal demonstration or a special event, but not typically for training.  Most schools wear something pretty low-key, some workout pants and a tee-shirt, often with no sash.  That might vary from school to school, and might vary if the school is more commercial and open to the public vs. a smaller, more private arrangement such as my school.
> 
> Some Chinese schools have adopted the use of belts and ranks similar to their Japanese counterparts, but that is a modern adaptation and is not consistent by a long shot.
> 
> Actually to be truthful, my sifu did use a ranking system back in the 1970s when he had an open, more commercial school.  He closed that a long time ago and has only been teaching a handful of students in his back yard ever since.  While I have been aware of the ranks, in the time I have trained with him there has been zero emphasis on testing and ranking.  It seems to be something left in the past.


Well yes I do know that some Chinese martial arts schools, kwoons as they're called, do use colored sashes to denote rank but as you said that is rather modern and was not used in the old school traditional Chinese systems. I've also seen Chinese systems that use a ranking system that's based not on belt color but rather on patches. You would wear a certain patch depending on your rank, and the patch for the lowest rank and the highest rank were identical, it was just an empty circle. The philosophy behind that was that when you reached the highest rank you had gone full circle and had reached a new beginning. Thus you were back where you started.


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## geezer (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> no* i cant be examined, with out an examination*, *i can be assessed*, i like the school, and the teacher and the stuff I'm learning, plus they let me take my dog along



Interesting. Is this a personal distinction? Or perhaps something more characteristic of British English rather than my humble colonial dialect? ...Out here in the sticks, the word "assessment" is pretty much interchangeable with "examination" these days.

Language changes. In a previous century, I spent my last two years of high school at an old-fashioned boys' preparatory boarding school. Instead of being a "juniors" or "seniors" we were referred to as "fifth formers" and sixth formers. Our teachers were "masters" and the principal was the "headmaster". And, at the end of each semester, we didn't just take tests, we "sat for exams" which took hours, and our answers were written out longhand in "bluebooks".

Now, as a high school teacher, when I conclude my semester teaching my students take a final "assessment".  Apparently, at least in American public education, the term exam is a bit passe   ...as is paying teachers a livable wage ...but I digress.

Regardless, whether you prefer _exams_ or _assessments_, and whether such testing is formal or not, you are examining the students' performance and progress. Hell, give a kid a magnifying glass and he or she can "examine"  bug without the bug having to sit for an examination!

Good thing too. Can you imagine having to grade those teeny-tiny blue books?


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## jobo (Sep 26, 2017)

geezer said:


> Interesting. Is this a personal distinction? Or perhaps something more characteristic of British English rather than my humble colonial dialect? ...Out here in the sticks, the word "assessment" is pretty much interchangeable with "examination" these days.
> 
> Language changes. In a previous century, I spent my last two years of high school at an old-fashioned boys' preparatory boarding school. Instead of being a "juniors" or "seniors" we were referred to as "fifth formers" and sixth formers. Our teachers were "masters" and the principal was the "headmaster". And, at the end of each semester, we didn't just take tests, we "sat for exams" which took hours, and our answers were written out longhand in "bluebooks".
> 
> ...



its very unusual in English to get two words, let alone three that are completely inter changeable, that they are different usually means the correct use is,different. Assessment , test and exam all denotes different things, particularly in a learning environment, so it makes no differance informally , but if i take my feet to the doctors to be examined, and he tells me to jump up and down to test them, I've been short changed i want them examined, if i take my car to the mechanics to have my brakes tested and he examines, but no test, then i still don't know if they work or not, as he hasn't tested them. 

if someone assess my roof as being leak free, that's of no use to me as he has nether tested nor,examined it.

all very different uses.


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## FighterTwister (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> its very unusual in English to get two words, let alone three that are completely inter changeable, that they are different usually means the correct use is,different. Assessment , test and exam all denotes different things, particularly in a learning environment, so it makes no differance informally , but if i take my feet to the doctors to be examined, and he tells me to jump up and down to test them, I've been short changed i want them examined, if i take my car to the mechanics to have my brakes tested and he examines, but no test, then i still don't know if they work or not, as he hasn't tested them.
> 
> if someone assess my roof as being leak free, that's of no use to me as he has nether tested nor,examined it.
> 
> all very different uses.



I see your point and agree with you here on that above point.

Although I see this as a common issue when people communicate especially in online social media Forums.

Language, perception and interpretations, expressions, terms and meanings are very tricky or are the trappings of communication and discussions especially in English because of its linguistics or expression complexity and its history  - More here on that......... English language - Wikipedia

If one just reacts hot on a  topic/discussion rather than stop research and think about it, there is normally some form of misunderstanding or error, it just happens.

So it just happened to be that you two guys got caught in that loop as you guys were sharing your views and opinions.

I continuously edit my posts after I post them for this very reason, language the choice of words and sometimes in correcting my post I lose the meaning or sentence structure of the point I'm making and start all over again.

Its one of the reasons I like being in Forums it helps me to be sharp on this area of writing a post because writing / language is an art form all to itself, is it not?

Your QWERTY Ninja skills LoL


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## Flying Crane (Sep 26, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes I do know that some Chinese martial arts schools, kwoons as they're called, do use colored sashes to denote rank but as you said that is rather modern and was not used in the old school traditional Chinese systems. I've also seen Chinese systems that use a ranking system that's based not on belt color but rather on patches. You would wear a certain patch depending on your rank, and the patch for the lowest rank and the highest rank were identical, it was just an empty circle. The philosophy behind that was that when you reached the highest rank you had gone full circle and had reached a new beginning. Thus you were back where you started.


I am aware that some Chinese schools use a ranking method of some sort.  Either way, it is a more modern adaptation.

There is an understanding of a senior student vs. a junior student, and it is typically a relationship between the individuals.  One can be a senior to one person, but a junior to another.  Most of these are personal relationships rather than an official ranking or position in the school.

There can be distinctions made between a beginner, intermediate, advanced student, and disciple as well, with specific curriculum for those levels.  I have learned up through the intermediate curriculum, but had no test nor promotion when sifu began teaching me the intermediate material.  He simply began teaching it to me.

Becoming a disciple is a specific step, but it is not a test nor a rank.  It is a request made by the student, and the sifu can accept or decline the request.  There is usually a ceremony to acknowledge the status.

The sifu agrees to teach the complete system to the disciples who are the next generation of the system and are responsible for passing it to the following generation and keeping the method alive.

You can be a teacher without being a disciple.  I have taught, I simply do not know the complete system.  However, what I have is actually a lot, it is plenty, and most people never learn this much of it anyway so I actually have a lot to teach.

Again, none of this comes with a test or a promotion, at least not in my school.


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## Danny T (Sep 26, 2017)

In the field of Education here in the U.S., these definitions are used:

A *test* or *quiz* is what is used to examine someone's knowledge of something to determine what he or she knows or has learned. Testing measures the level of skill or knowledge that has been reached.

*Evaluation* is the process of making judgments based on criteria and evidence.

*Assessment* is the process of describing, collecting, recording, scoring, and interpreting information of someone’s learning or skill with the goal of making improvements, as opposed to simply making a judgment or an evaluation.


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## geezer (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> ...its very unusual in English to get two words, let alone three that are completely inter changeable...



Well said. Even words that are nearly synonymous have subtle differences of connotation, and one reason English is such a wonderfully descriptive language.


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## geezer (Sep 26, 2017)

Danny T said:


> In the field of Education here in the U.S., these definitions are used:
> 
> A *test* or *quiz* is what is used to examine someone's knowledge of something to determine what he or she knows or has learned. Testing measures the level of skill or knowledge that has been reached.
> 
> ...




You'll note that there is quite a bit of overlap between these terms. In actual practice, I find that "educators", especisal those with administrative positions pay more attention to whatever the current trends in terminology are than thinking these things thorugh deeply! In other words, they really love to repeat whatever the current buzzwords and catchphrases are and invariably gravitate to whatever term has more syllables and sounds more erudite ...for example replacing simple, understandable words like "use" with "utilize" whether or not appropriate just because they think it makes them sound smarter!

Personally, I'll often take good straight-forward Anglo-Saxon English, however rough and guttural, over BS academic "ed-speak" couched in polysyllabic greco-latinate sesquipedalinisms any day of the week.

...now back to the topic...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 26, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial arts schools don't test students, ...


Sometime the student doesn't want to take the test. If you have trained MA for 20 years and still have a white belt on your waist, when you defeat some black belts, it will make them to feel bad, and make yourself to feel good.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> it means nothing,as you won't define the terms you are using,
> when you have decided what is a test and what is an exam, a discussion might have some point,


You are more capable than that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> its very unusual in English to get two words, let alone three that are completely inter changeable, that they are different usually means the correct use is,different. Assessment , test and exam all denotes different things, particularly in a learning environment, so it makes no differance informally , but if i take my feet to the doctors to be examined, and he tells me to jump up and down to test them, I've been short changed i want them examined, if i take my car to the mechanics to have my brakes tested and he examines, but no test, then i still don't know if they work or not, as he hasn't tested them.
> 
> if someone assess my roof as being leak free, that's of no use to me as he has nether tested nor,examined it.
> 
> all very different uses.


In that context.


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## Danny T (Sep 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You are more capable than that.


Capable but not willing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 26, 2017)

When I jointed in the YMCA Karate club in Austin back in 1972. I started as a white belt. One day a TKD black belt from Dallas (the Karate instructor's young brother) who challenged me in front of the whole class. After I defeated him in the match, he started to cry. He did know that I had over 10 years CMA training before that.

Sometime to wear a white belt do have advantage. If you lose in a challenge match, people won't say anything. If you win, you will make your opponent to feel bad big time.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I jointed in the YMCA Karate club in Austin back in 1972. I started as a white belt. One day a TKD black belt from Dallas (the Karate instructor's young brother) who challenged me in front of the whole class. After I defeated him in the match, he started to cry. He did know that I had over 10 years CMA training before that.
> 
> Sometime to wear a white belt do have advantage. If you lose in a challenge match, people won't say anything. If you win, you will make your opponent to feel bad big time.


Perhaps, but you could be accused of sandbagging.


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## Danny T (Sep 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I jointed in the YMCA Karate club in Austin back in 1972. I started as a white belt. One day a TKD black belt from Dallas (the Karate instructor's young brother) who challenged me in front of the whole class. After I defeated him in the match, he started to cry. He did know that I had over 10 years CMA training before that.
> 
> Sometime to wear a white belt do have advantage. If you lose in a challenge match, people won't say anything. If you win, you will make your opponent to feel bad big time.


A black belt challenged a white belt? Hmmm...what is the rest of the story?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 26, 2017)

Danny T said:


> A black belt challenged a white belt? Hmmm...what is the rest of the story?


The YMCA Karate instructor told his young brother (who just received a TKD black belt in Dallas) that there was a new student in his Karate class who knew Kung Fu (Back then Bruce Lee was still alive, and Kung Fu TV serious just started). The instructor's young brother challenged me in front of the class. Since I had never sparred with any TKD guy before, I played defense. My opponent liked to throw side kicks. When he kicked me, I used my left palm to block his kick, I then dropped my right elbow on the side of his foot (the metal against wood strategy). After he could no longer kick me. I jumped in from 15 feet away with one punch on his face and end that fight. Through the entire match, I only threw 1 punch.


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## Danny T (Sep 27, 2017)

So he didn't challenge a white belt he challenged a much higher level Kung Fu martial artist.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The YMCA Karate instructor told his young brother (who just received a TKD black belt in Dallas) that there was a new student in his Karate class who knew Kung Fu (Back then Bruce Lee was still alive, and Kung Fu TV serious just started). The instructor's young brother challenged me in front of the class. Since I had never sparred with any TKD guy before, I played defense. My opponent liked to throw side kicks. When he kicked me, I used my left palm to block his kick, I then dropped my right elbow on the side of his foot (the metal against wood strategy). After he could no longer kick me. I jumped in from 15 feet away with one punch on his face and end that fight. Through the entire match, I only threw 1 punch.


Im not sure if bringing your elbow down on his foot would be legal in a TKD match. It might get you disqualified. Anyway, if you were able to bring your elbow down on his foot, he needed to learn to bring his kicks back faster.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 3, 2017)

So anyway some people have said that if a student can decide whether or not to test that its not a good way to run a dojo and that its most likely a McDojo, as the term has been used. Students should not be able to test whenever they want. Well, I've never heard of a dojo that lets students test whenever they want. At a dojo I went to a student could only test if they were running a test, which was done approximately every four months.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway some people have said that if a student can decide whether or not to test that its not a good way to run a dojo and that its most likely a McDojo, as the term has been used. Students should not be able to test whenever they want. Well, I've never heard of a dojo that lets students test whenever they want. At a dojo I went to a student could only test if they were running a test, which was done approximately every four months.


It depends what you mean by "whenever they want". At the dojo I did most of my training at, once a student had all of the techniques for the next test, it was mostly up to the student to schedule their test with their instructor.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It depends what you mean by "whenever they want". At the dojo I did most of my training at, once a student had all of the techniques for the next test, it was mostly up to the student to schedule their test with their instructor.


I see. Well the dojo where I did most of my training, tests were scheduled about every four months. It was ultimately up to the student if they wanted to test although the instructor might recommend against it or tell you that you're not ready. The point is, though, that just because it was up to the student if they wanted to test that didn't mean a student could test whenever they wanted. Tests were done every four months so that's when a student could test.


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## JR 137 (Oct 3, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. Well the dojo where I did most of my training, tests were scheduled about every four months. It was ultimately up to the student if they wanted to test although the instructor might recommend against it or tell you that you're not ready. The point is, though, that just because it was up to the student if they wanted to test that didn't mean a student could test whenever they wanted. Tests were done every four months so that's when a student could test.


So in other words, any student could test once they were eligible?  By eligible, I'm assuming they met the minimum time in grade/number of classes.

So long as it's an actual test where students fail if they haven't met the standards for their rank, I see no issues with it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. Well the dojo where I did most of my training, tests were scheduled about every four months. It was ultimately up to the student if they wanted to test although the instructor might recommend against it or tell you that you're not ready. The point is, though, that just because it was up to the student if they wanted to test that didn't mean a student could test whenever they wanted. Tests were done every four months so that's when a student could test.


I think the difference is the type of test. In a grappling-heavy art, it's difficult to test mutiple people at the same time when testing individual techniques. So there's no scheduled cycle of tests, and each test has to be scheduled individually.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> So in other words, any student could test once they were eligible?  By eligible, I'm assuming they met the minimum time in grade/number of classes.
> 
> So long as it's an actual test where students fail if they haven't met the standards for their rank, I see no issues with it.


Well tests were ran every four months so therefore the minimum time before you could promote would technically be four months. And yes students did fail if they didn't perform up to par.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think the difference is the type of test. In a grappling-heavy art, it's difficult to test mutiple people at the same time when testing individual techniques. So there's no scheduled cycle of tests, and each test has to be scheduled individually.


With grappling arts here are the ways I've seen for students to be promoted. In Judo you get promoted by going to tournaments and winning matches. Depending on your rank you would have to win so many matches against so many opponents of a certain rank or above in order to promote. In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, in which I am now currently training you get promoted when the instructor sees you're ready in which case you get a stripe on your belt or if you've already got so many stripes you go up a belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> With grappling arts here are the ways I've seen for students to be promoted. In Judo you get promoted by going to tournaments and winning matches. Depending on your rank you would have to win so many matches against so many opponents of a certain rank or above in order to promote. In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, in which I am now currently training you get promoted when the instructor sees you're ready in which case you get a stripe on your belt or if you've already got so many stripes you go up a belt.


Agreed. My point was about "when testing individual techniques".


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## JR 137 (Oct 4, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well tests were ran every four months so therefore the minimum time before you could promote would technically be four months. And yes students did fail if they didn't perform up to par.


Was the minimum time in grade 4 months for all kyu (colored belt) ranks?

Both schools I’ve been at had different minimums for different ranks; ie 10th kyu-6th kyu was 3 months, 5th-3rd was 6 months, 2nd and first were 9 months.  Or something like that.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Was the minimum time in grade 4 months for all kyu (colored belt) ranks?
> 
> Both schools I’ve been at had different minimums for different ranks; ie 10th kyu-6th kyu was 3 months, 5th-3rd was 6 months, 2nd and first were 9 months.  Or something like that.


Technically yes, the minimum time to go up a kyu grade was technically 4 months since tests were scheduled four months apart although particularly with 3rd kyu and above students would take longer. I never knew of any student who advanced from 3rd kyu to 2nd kyu or from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu in 4 months, it would take at least 8 months.


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## Anarax (Oct 6, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial arts schools don't test students, rather they simply promote the student when the student is ready. The student might put on a demonstration with the purpose of showing off what they've learned and so forth but unless their performance affects the outcome, another words, unless there's the possibility of failing and not being promoted as well as the possibility of passing and being promoted than its not a test. Its a demonstration, plain and simple. Now, Im not saying such methods are wrong or bad but there are some schools that require a student to pass a test in order to be promoted. Their performance during the test determines whether they get promoted or not. Now, some might ask what's the point of having a test that the instructor should know if the student is ready or not to promote without having to test the student. Well, the point of testing the student is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you're taking a test and the outcome depends on how well you do there is a certain amount of psychological pressure that you have to deal with. So that's why some schools use tests.



One of the things an instructor will look for in a test will be the students ability to perform under pressure. Having an entire room full of people watch you demonstrate techniques adds another dynamic to it.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 7, 2017)

Anarax said:


> One of the things an instructor will look for in a test will be the students ability to perform under pressure. Having an entire room full of people watch you demonstrate techniques adds another dynamic to it.


Exactly. And that to some extent mimics the real pressure you will be subject to in a real self defense situation should you ever be in one. And when you're not only in a room full of people watching you but your performance also determines whether you will pass or fail, that really brings on the pressure.


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## Balrog (Oct 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen this used three ways:
> 
> 
> As you describe - the test is a formality.
> ...


I like your 3/4.  Performance under stress is overlooked so often and yet it is so critical.  It is a major confidence builder, and we all know that confidence is a integral component of self-defense.

For students testing for Black Belt, SWMBO and I devise an "instructor's challenge" for them.  Perhaps it's a harder board break attempt.  Perhaps it's sparring multiple opponents.  It will be specific to that individual.  I don't really care if they are successful at it.  What I want to see is that they will tackle the challenge with no hesitation and do their best to succeed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 8, 2017)

Balrog said:


> I like your 3/4.  Performance under stress is overlooked so often and yet it is so critical.  It is a major confidence builder, and we all know that confidence is a integral component of self-defense.
> 
> For students testing for Black Belt, SWMBO and I devise an "instructor's challenge" for them.  Perhaps it's a harder board break attempt.  Perhaps it's sparring multiple opponents.  It will be specific to that individual.  I don't really care if they are successful at it.  What I want to see is that they will tackle the challenge with no hesitation and do their best to succeed.


I like that concept. I might even end up stealing it.


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## Balrog (Oct 8, 2017)

Can't steal a gift, bro.  Feel free to use as desired.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2017)

Balrog said:


> Can't steal a gift, bro.  Feel free to use as desired.


Don’t spoil my fun.


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## Balrog (Oct 9, 2017)




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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. My point was about "when testing individual techniques".



You just need a partner. You could test as many people as can fit on a mat.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You just need a partner. You could test as many people as can fit on a mat.


I can't watch 5 people perform the technique at the same time.


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## Prostar (Oct 25, 2017)

I used to take my students to my instructor for their black belt test.  The first thing he would tell them is that Jeff would not bring you here if you were not already qualified.  He then proceeded to put them through a test that I say they more had to survive than pass.  Those students will never forget that experience.


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## dvcochran (Nov 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is key, IMO. Even the hardest tests I've been through didn't generate the fight-or-flight response as experienced when physical violence is imminent. I got value from the struggle of the test, but it wasn't (IMO) a way to get used to that kind of stress.


I agree, but for most it is a good start to handling pressure.


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## dvcochran (Nov 12, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Testing can be used for other things too...
> 
> 1. Quality control.
> Look at this class and teaching schedule: http://www.seido.com/fileuploads/HonbuFullSchedule.pdf
> ...


I found the "Advanced White Belt" humorous.


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## JR 137 (Nov 12, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> I found the "Advanced White Belt" humorous.


I never really thought about that.  Now that you mention it, I agree.

The “advanced” part is basically used in place of getting a new colored belt every single time.  Instead of 10 colors there’s only 5.  Makes things simpler.

But yeah, somehow “advanced white belt” is a bit of an oxymoron.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I’ll never be able to read, write, or say it again without chuckling.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 13, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> I found the "Advanced White Belt" humorous.



Meh. Given that at least one system issues camo belts...


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 13, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Meh. Given that at least one system issues camo belts...


Is there an “advanced camp belt”?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 13, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> I found the "Advanced White Belt" humorous.


I think I’m going to start using that to describe some people...


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## dvcochran (Nov 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think I’m going to start using that to describe some people...


I'm not sure I am there yet.


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## Steve (Nov 13, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> I'm not sure I am there yet.


if you were an advanced white belt, your be there.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I never really thought about that.  Now that you mention it, I agree.
> 
> The “advanced” part is basically used in place of getting a new colored belt every single time.  Instead of 10 colors there’s only 5.  Makes things simpler.
> 
> But yeah, somehow “advanced white belt” is a bit of an oxymoron.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I’ll never be able to read, write, or say it again without chuckling.



That's how its done in BJJ. In BJJ from white to black there are only five colors, white, blue, purple, brown, and black. Then after black there are more advanced belts such as the coral belt which is alternating black and red and the very highest belt is the red belt. Very few people get the red belt and I've never heard of anybody outside the Gracie family getting it. At that point, though, rank is more or less just political. Anyway, with only five belts from white to black, you do have more advanced ranks in each belt. How advanced you are in a belt is symbolized by how many stripes you've got on your belt. You start out with a white belt with no stripes. When you first get promoted you get one stripe on your white belt. Each time you get promoted you get another stripe on your belt up to four stripes. Once you've got four stripes the next time you get promoted you go up a belt color. The exception to this is the brown belt which doesn't have any stripes so as far as I know its brown to black with no stripes in between.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's how its done in BJJ. In BJJ from white to black there are only five colors, white, blue, purple, brown, and black. Then after black there are more advanced belts such as the coral belt which is alternating black and red and the very highest belt is the red belt. Very few people get the red belt and I've never heard of anybody outside the Gracie family getting it. At that point, though, rank is more or less just political. Anyway, with only five belts from white to black, you do have more advanced ranks in each belt. How advanced you are in a belt is symbolized by how many stripes you've got on your belt. You start out with a white belt with no stripes. When you first get promoted you get one stripe on your white belt. Each time you get promoted you get another stripe on your belt up to four stripes. Once you've got four stripes the next time you get promoted you go up a belt color. The exception to this is the brown belt which doesn't have any stripes so as far as I know its brown to black with no stripes in between.


I like this to reduce the number of belts. It's the same principle as the bunch-of-belts approach, but without so much changing of belts, so less focus on the transitions.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I like this to reduce the number of belts. It's the same principle as the bunch-of-belts approach, but without so much changing of belts, so less focus on the transitions.



With the children they do have more belt colors. In the children's belt system there's a yellow belt and a green belt and I believe some other belts that are absent in the adult system. Usually somewhere in your mid teens you're considered an adult in terms of what belt system you use.

Anyway, there are less colors but you do get stripes on your belt and getting a stripe is a transition.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> With the children they do have more belt colors. In the children's belt system there's a yellow belt and a green belt and I believe some other belts that are absent in the adult system. Usually somewhere in your mid teens you're considered an adult in terms of what belt system you use.
> 
> Anyway, there are less colors but you do get stripes on your belt and getting a stripe is a transition.


Agreed. I think the color changes highlight the transition a bit more (and mean more old belts in the closet), so the tips probably help reduce the focus on the transitions. 

The NGAA has a similar approach for kids, though they re-use the same belt colors. Once a youth (originally at least age 13 - not sure how they handle this rule now) hits youth green (yellow, blue, green), they start training the adult material, so their next belt is adult yellow (yellow, blue, green, purple, brown, black).


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