# Belt Companion



## kroh (Jan 17, 2006)

How many people out there train with the kodachi (short sword...wakizashi)?  If you do train with it what systems is it from?

Curious...
Regards, 
Walt


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## TheBattousai (Jan 17, 2006)

I train with the wakizashi. I receive my training in it threw my kobujutsu practice.


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## Swordlady (Jan 17, 2006)

I train with a daisho (katana and wakizashi) in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.  Up to fairly recently, only the senior students wore the wakizashi, since it is harder to train with two swords in your obi.  However, since all the Yagyu students in Japan train with BOTH swords from the beginning, my sensei decided to allow all of his students to carry a wakizashi as well.  It does add an extra element to my training, and I had to adjust certain movements to work around the extra sword in my obi.  Oh...and it *is* kinda a pain sometimes, though I've gotten used to it.


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## kroh (Jan 17, 2006)

Are the techniques that you learn done as snap draw techniques or is it a naked blade (blade already from the scabbard) cirriculum?  

And does the traditional lines of Swordsmanship carry the use of this weapon?  I know the Nitten Ichi Ryu have methods for using it and I am some what aware of the Kashima Katori Shinto Ryu having it in their system.  

Does anyone know how it was used in the old days?

Regards, 
Walt


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## kroh (Jan 17, 2006)

Always a pleasure to see you Sword Lady San.  In YSKR, when is the sword drawn ( the kodachi )?  Do you practice it in conjunction with the long sword or does it have its own seperate cirriculum?  

Same question to you too theBattosai...

Regards, 
Walt


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## Swordlady (Jan 17, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> Are the techniques that you learn done as snap draw techniques or is it a naked blade (blade already from the scabbard) cirriculum?
> 
> And does the traditional lines of Swordsmanship carry the use of this weapon? I know the Nitten Ichi Ryu have methods for using it and I am some what aware of the Kashima Katori Shinto Ryu having it in their system.
> 
> ...


 
All of the solo _kata_ in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu start with the swords sheathed.  The kenjutsu _kata_ is done with swords drawn (usually with bokken, though I've seen high-ranking Yagyu sensei demonstrate kenjutsu _kata_ with live blades - whoa!)

From what I understand, the original _koryu_ all used the daisho in their fighting systems (I may be wrong in this assessment; I'll have to check).


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## Swordlady (Jan 17, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> Always a pleasure to see you Sword Lady San. In YSKR, when is the sword drawn ( the kodachi )? Do you practice it in conjunction with the long sword or does it have its pwn seperate cirriculum?
> 
> Same question to you too theBattosai...
> 
> ...


 
The pleasure is mine, Kroh.    To answer your question, the wakizashi is sometimes used in conjuction with the katana (I don't know every kata yet, but I have learned a couple where both swords end up drawn), and there are some kata where only the short sword is used (the long sword would not be in the obi for those kata).


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## kroh (Jan 17, 2006)

I started to train in Yagyu Shinkage ryu with a local study group about a week before I blew out my knee (1998).  When my knee was put back together I tried to look for the group again and they had since closed down (along with the aikido school it was in, the gentleman who ran it retired).  I had two classes.  Bum Deal.  

In any event, when the kodachi is used solo, are the movements done from kneeling or standing?

Regards, 
Walt


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## Swordlady (Jan 17, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> I started to train in Yagyu Shinkage ryu with a local study group about a week before I blew out my knee (1998). When my knee was put back together I tried to look for the group again and they had since closed down (along with the aikido school it was in, the gentleman who ran it retired). I had two classes. Bum Deal.



Bummer about your training.    It's very hard to find schools that teach original _koryu_.  The only other YSKR school in the US I know of is in Tampa, Florida.  Though there is an Owari YSKR (my group is Edo) group somewhere in upstate New York (I have to double-check where).



> In any event, when the kodachi is used solo, are the movements done from kneeling or standing?


 
Both.  I know some wakizashi _kata_ where I start from a kneeling position, and others where I'm walking into an attack.


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## kroh (Jan 17, 2006)

Tampa seems to be a hotbed for the Japanese Sword.  They have a big Toyama Ryu pressence down there as well.  Might have to take a field trip.  

Does the YSKR practice test cutting and if so do you use the kodachi also?  

I know what you mean about the scarcity or koryu instruction but it seems that with the advent of the internet it is easy to find (all hail mighty google...)

Regards, 
Walt


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## Walter Wong (Jan 17, 2006)

In Nami Ryu, it is required to train with daisho.  The 2nd blade can either be Wakizashi or Tanto or Aikuchi.  I've done tameshigiri once with a Wakizashi and Aikuchi (same as tanto only it is without a tsuba).  Wakizashi behaves pretty much like a sword.  Only smaller and faster.  It's a powerful 2nd blade.  With Aikuchi, I couldn't cut through a single mat for the life of me.  Will take more training and experience.  I'm not exactly on Wakizashi/Tanto training, but the training surrounds itself around sword training.  Right now, I currently wear an Aikuchi in my obi when training with Katana.  Wearing a Wakizashi or Tanto/Aikuchi affects how you use the sword and teaches many lessons.  Form and technique is reinforced in Nami Ryu with the Katana moreso when wearing a Wakizashi.  But with some training, it doesn't take long to get used to that extra handle sticking out of your obi.  I personally like wearing Aikuchi cause it's smaller and a little more out of the way but still can get in the way if not training with the sword correctly.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 17, 2006)

hey Walt, do the teachers you study under offer any MJER?
i believe that is what Michael Brown Sensei teaches.....is it not?
i would love to study sword seriously, but the closest place to me is in toronto, about 1 1/2 hours away.


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## Walter Wong (Jan 17, 2006)

I'm in Boston.  The place where I learn MJER is in Cambridge, MA under Cuong Nguyen Sensei.  I'm not sure where in Toronto teaches MJER.  But I wouldn't doubt there is a qualified sensei up there to teach MJER.  MJER as far as I know do not train with a 2nd blade in their belt and only focus on just the Katana work.

My Nami Ryu instructors that I train with in New Hampshire never done MJER but had some years of Toyama Ryu under their belt prior to their Nami Ryu training.


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## Swordlady (Jan 17, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> Tampa seems to be a hotbed for the Japanese Sword.  They have a big Toyama Ryu pressence down there as well.  Might have to take a field trip.



There you go!   Catching a seminar ever so often would be good, especially if you don't have regular access to a legit teacher.



> Does the YSKR practice test cutting and if so do you use the kodachi also?



I don't know about the other YSKR instructors, but my sensei doesn't put all that much emphasis into cutting.  It's too expensive for us to do on a regular basis; most of us don't have that much money to go around.  Not only that, preparing the mats is a royal PAIN (not difficult, but it is tedious work); we normally go through over 100 mats at our annual test cutting.  We have one "official" test cutting day a year (usually in the late summer or fall), though we also sometimes come across an opportunity for test cutting at a Sword Fest or something.  And yes, some of the students use the wakizashi for test cutting.  I haven't tried using the short sword yet, but know that it is harder than the long sword.


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## kroh (Jan 17, 2006)

Blackcatbonz said:
			
		

> hey Walt, do the teachers you study under offer any MJER?
> i believe that is what Michael Brown Sensei teaches.....is it not?


 
You are correct sir.  Mr. Brown moved to North Caolina so I don't have the opportuity to train with him at the moment.  I am under two of his instructors.  The school has an MJER sword club and a senior practitioner comes down once a week to make sure things go the way they're supposed to.  They meet a couple of times a week.  I was invited to join the club tonight when regular class was letting out but I have a couple of irons in the fire and can't just yet.  Maybe in a couple of weeks.  Very nice of them to offer.  

Some of my past experience includes Toyama Ryu which was taught as an adjunct program for the Kempo group I was a part of.  The Toyama Ryu has kodachi elements in it and I hope to go to Boston soon to see if they can help me further my education in this system(as I am very eager to learn more of the system.  Very different from the sword I learned while in jujutsu.).  I am also hoping to go to Boston to visit with Mr. Wong and trade techniques ( and grab a bite to eat!) if he is availble.



			
				Swordlady said:
			
		

> we normally go through over 100 mats at our annual test cutting.


 That sounds like a lot of fun.  Sign me up!  Thanks for all the info so far...very groovy.



			
				Walter Wong said:
			
		

> In Nami Ryu, it is required to train with daisho. The 2nd blade can either be Wakizashi or Tanto or Aikuchi. I've done tameshigiri once with a Wakizashi and Aikuchi (same as tanto only it is without a tsuba). Wakizashi behaves pretty much like a sword. Only smaller and faster. It's a powerful 2nd blade. With Aikuchi, I couldn't cut through a single mat for the life of me. Will take more training and experience. I'm not exactly on Wakizashi/Tanto training, but the training surrounds itself around sword training. Right now, I currently wear an Aikuchi in my obi when training with Katana. Wearing a Wakizashi or Tanto/Aikuchi affects how you use the sword and teaches many lessons. Form and technique is reinforced in Nami Ryu with the Katana moreso when wearing a Wakizashi. But with some training, it doesn't take long to get used to that extra handle sticking out of your obi. I personally like wearing Aikuchi cause it's smaller and a little more out of the way but still can get in the way if not training with the sword correctly.


 
Sounds like this training is pretty cool.  Got to watch the handle of that second blade when drawing out the sword.  Gets in the way when you are trying to line everything up for replacing the blade too.   

Thanks for all the info...keep it commin!
Regards,
Walt


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## Henderson (Jan 17, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> I started to train in Yagyu Shinkage ryu with a local study group about a week before I blew out my knee (1998). When my knee was put back together I tried to look for the group again and they had since closed down (along with the aikido school it was in, the gentleman who ran it retired). I had two classes. Bum Deal.


 
Hey Walt,

I know Erik Johnstone Sensei teaches MJER in Rhode Island, and is a direct student of Carl Long Shihan.  If you're interested I can post a link to his website for you.

Respects,

Frank


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## kroh (Jan 17, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> Hey Walt,
> 
> I know Erik Johnstone Sensei teaches MJER in Rhode Island, and is a direct student of Carl Long Shihan. If you're interested I can post a link to his website for you.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Frank...Thank you for the shout...I would be greatful if you posted the link.  I could always use more friends who cut things into little pieces.

Regards, 
Walt


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## Henderson (Jan 17, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> Hey Frank...Thank you for the shout...I would be greatful if you posted the link. I could always use more friends who cut things into little pieces.


You're welcome. Johnstone Sensei is one of the finest people I know. A fine practitioner and hell of an historian of the Arts. He teaches in Richmond and Cranston, RI. See site at...

http://members.cox.net/shindokan

Frank


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## Walter Wong (Jan 18, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> Some of my past experience includes Toyama Ryu which was taught as an adjunct program for the Kempo group I was a part of. The Toyama Ryu has kodachi elements in it and I hope to go to Boston soon to see if they can help me further my education in this system(as I am very eager to learn more of the system. Very different from the sword I learned while in jujutsu.). I am also hoping to go to Boston to visit with Mr. Wong and trade techniques ( and grab a bite to eat!) if he is availble.


Hi Walt.

I'm not aware of any Toyama Ryu group up here in Boston.

But yeah, just PM me when you're coming up and we can arrange to meet up.


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## kroh (Jan 18, 2006)

Walter Wong said:
			
		

> just PM me when you're coming up and we can arrange to meet up. [


 
So I saw your post and followed a bookmarked link back to the Toyama study group and sure enough they hit me with a big "error 404."  So I guess that they are not there anymore.  Must not have been that serious a group.  

Anyhoo... We'll set something up.



			
				Henderson said:
			
		

> See site at...


 
Thanks for posting that Frank.  I have been on that site before but the studio near where I am only has classes in the morning and I have to be into work at 5:30.  The Richmond studio is a bit out of my reach at the moment but I will keep the site marked and once things clear out a bit I will probably give him a ring.  

Walter, I know that on Mr. Williams' site he has photo's of him doing paired sword attacks (evil warra...DIE!) with the twin weapons.  Have you touched on any of this training yet?  Also, Is some of the torite-kogusoku or kumi-uchi excersizes that Nami Ryu does, is the kodachi or tanto employed?  For example, you have a guy locked up or off balance in a compromising position...do you end it with a strike from the obi with the weapon?

Regards,
Walt


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## Walter Wong (Jan 18, 2006)

So far the extent of my Nami Ryu training has only been with Katana, Iai and Kenjutsu work with it, and various falling and rolling and rolling with sword and drawing it.  And a little tameshigiri with various Samurai weapons next to Katana.

I haven't gone that far enough into the curricullum to start drawing my Aikuchi.  Or work with Wakizashi techniques.  They are still based around the sword though.

There's alot in the Nami Ryu curricullum that I have yet to begin training in.  Just working on some very basics and core principles.

There is 2 sword work of course.  But that's later on.

The seminar's this weekend in PA.  Why don't you take a drive down and meet me there and meet James Williams and everyone else.
http://www.yrjj.net/Jan06Seminar.html

You can get there a little faster than me.  I have to drive an extra hour of driving than you to get there.  A 5 hour drive for me once I get onto 95 south.


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## kroh (Jan 18, 2006)

Walter Wong said:
			
		

> So far the extent of my Nami Ryu training has only been with Katana, Iai and Kenjutsu work with it, and various falling and rolling and rolling with sword and drawing it. And a little tameshigiri with various Samurai weapons next to Katana.
> 
> I haven't gone that far enough into the curricullum to start drawing my Aikuchi. Or work with Wakizashi techniques. They are still based around the sword though.
> 
> ...


 
I wish I could go this weekend but other obligations have me firmly planted in Rhode Island.  No worries...Hopefully there will be another opportunity soon.  

Regards, 
Walt


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## Walter Wong (Jan 29, 2006)

There will be.  I think beginning this year, there's gonna more Nami Ryu seminars on the east coast.  Just keep checking http://www.yrjj.net/firstpage.html for upcoming seminars or http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/seminars.html for updates for more seminars.  Seminars seem to just get added to the schedule as the year goes by you have to keep checking maybe like twice a month.


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## arnisador (Jan 29, 2006)

These are usually announced in the Seminars forum on E-Budo too.


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## kroh (Jan 29, 2006)

Thanks for the info Walter and Arnisador.  I am looking forward to training in Nami Ryu in the near future as the system looks very interesting and from the sound of it moves like some of the jujutsu I have seen in the past.  Very cool stuff.

Another system that practices with the kodachi is the Suio Ryu (a koryu).  I don't know if your friends that practice in the Ryuha actually do it, Walter, but I know that they train to acknowledge the presence of the short sword in the belt.  There is supposedly methods of kogusoku in the system as well where they wear the shortsword while doing it.  Makes things interesting.  

Regards,
Walt


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## Walter Wong (Jan 29, 2006)

One of my Suio Ryu friends talks about seeing a Wakizashi worn in obi while using Katana in his class.


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## kroh (Jan 30, 2006)

Do they actually wear it when they do it or do they just work out as they they have one there (proper sayabiki as though sporting a kodachi)?

Regards, 
Walt


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## Walter Wong (Jan 30, 2006)

I'm not sure cause I haven't seen a Suio Ryu class myself yet.  I would imagine that if they're not physically wearing a second blade in their obi, that their practice is with the consideration that there is a second blade in their obi when using katana.  And I'm assuming you just wear a second blade in your obi when you can afford one or something.

I thought you are Suio Ryu student with the Providence group Walt?


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## kroh (Jan 30, 2006)

Nope...I have taken a few classes with them as far as seminars and open houses but I have yet to officially sign on.  I have been facinated by sword arts for years but to have a legitimate koryu in my back yard is such a great opportunity (to be fair, I have also been told about MJER Iaido and MSR Jodo but those are the only koryu I could find).  Unfortunately, right now I have one of those scheduales that I am trying to get rid of.  It only allows me to train in limited times right now but as soon as I get a free minute I am going down there to hook it up.  

The class meets twice and sometimes three times a week.  I have spoken to the person in charge of the club several times (a consumate professional in the realm of Japanese martial arts with a sincere love for what she is doing and technical knowledge for what they are teaching). She has graciously told me that when my scheduale clears i can come back and be considered for training.  The people from their group that I have met were all really nice and judging from the atmosphere people just come in, do their thing,  and some times socialize a bit before going home.  Excelllent training enviornment with no BS.

With your Nami ryu training, have you worked with other weapons besides the sword?  IF so, do you still wear the kodachi in your obi or do they even sometimes wear the "long and short" while doing stuff like glaive or long/short staff?  

Regards, 
Walt

P.S. This whole thread is all about getting some serious information not based on anime or what kind of sword to buy into a thread watched over by some genuine sword folks (who also lurk on other boards such as the one captained by Mr. Williams or Sword Forum Int.).  I really enjoy learning about the different facets of Kenjutsu and this is one that is not often exponded upon.  

Thanks :asian:


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## Walter Wong (Jan 30, 2006)

I know that once you sign up with Suio Ryu, you make a vow to only practice Suio Ryu and nothing else.  It's a complete commitment to Suio Ryu so cross training with another Ryu is forbidden.  So be sure to try other Kenjutsu around before finalizing any decision to do Suio Ryu.  There is a Jikishin-kai style of MJER in Rhode Island I believe and I think that's lead by Tom Duffy.  If you want seitokai style of MJER you'll have to come to Boston www.bostoniaido.com
As far as Nami Ryu, I'm taking regular courses of it with 2 certified Nami Ryu instructors in New Hampshire while attending the seminars down in PA for more personal attention from James Williams Sensei himself while practicing with another Nami Ryu newbie here in Boston to keep up in between taking classes and seminars.  JSA is just harder to find it seems as quality training is so spread out in very few areas.

As far as other weapons, I mostly been training with Katana and recently began the Aikijujutsu training.  When it came to tameshigiri, I've cut with Aikuchi (tanto without tsuba), wakizashi and Naginata.  It was more like the instructor wanted me to get a taste for other weapons as they still use the same body mechanics as the sword with some subtle differences.  I couldn't cut the mats with Aikuchi or naginata for the life of me.  Aikuchi being the small knife it is, I only managed to hack up the mat.  But interesting my instructor could cut through a single rolled mat with the aikuchi no problem.  And with naginata, I ended up batting the mat smacking it right off the stand.  Wakizashi was more successful with cause it behaves close to a Katana.  So Wakizashi makes a very powerful second sword.  Aikuchi or tanto being the small knife it is is more ideal for jujutsu/aikijujutsu purposes.  Naginata well, you can clear a dance floor with that. 

What other JSA styles have you trained or dabbled in besides Suio Ryu?  Did you mention something about Toyama Ryu before?


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## kroh (Jan 30, 2006)

Most recently _Toyama Ryu_.  It was taught as an adjunct to the Kempo system I was a part of.  Good stuff.  I have extensive time in FMA styles as well.  It is a nice break (and sore muscles the next morning) from doing mostly JSA.  I also get more out of it from examining such a different approach to sword method.   Of course there is always the obligatory dabbling when going to camps and the like.  I really liked Aikido weaponry but I only had six months of aikido total so it really never amounted to very much.  The only art I really lamented about so far was _Yagyu Shinkage Ryu_.  They taught it at the aikido dojo I was a part of(study group).  I only had three classes.  I had only learned some very basic draws (basically pulling out the sword and putting it back without lopping off a toe) and was working on those ( all the while wanting to do some of the kata with the red leather wrapped shinai %-} ) when I blew out my knee in a jujutsu class I was taking on the side.  Back in 98 I was doing a lot of cross training.  We were doing some free grappling after class and the guy put his foot through my knee.  Had to get major surgery and that pretty much killed any training for a while that involved anything like aikido or kenjutsu.  Bum deal.  Nurses and PT's were pretty hot though!

I never knew that about the _Suio Ryu_ not being able to train in anything else.  I will say that they are very dedicated to spreading the art.  I know that they trave to Japan every once in a while to train with the head honcho of the art.  So far in the classes I have been to and the ones I have watched, I have only seen them doing the iaijutsu portion of the art.  Naginatajutsu, kogosoku, and kusarigamajutsu are all elements of the system I have not personally witnessed.  But I bet it would be cool to watch some of the seniors do it.  

Groovy
Walt


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## Walter Wong (Jan 30, 2006)

Yeah Suio Ryu seems to be a complete Samurai art itself.

I'm touching on Filipino martial arts right now.  A little more knife than stick.  But touching on stick little.  I know stick is actually practicing sword.  I guess it's kind of the Filipino's bokken.  FMA is alot of fun.

Well, let me know when you are hitting up Boston.


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## kroh (Jan 30, 2006)

Sure thing...We can trade notes on on the FMA stuff .  I have a few years under my belt.  I look forward to it...

Regards, 
Walt


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## Kusarigama (Feb 24, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> I never knew that about the _Suio Ryu_ not being able to train in anything else. I will say that they are very dedicated to spreading the art. I know that they trave to Japan every once in a while to train with the head honcho of the art. So far in the classes I have been to and the ones I have watched, I have only seen them doing the iaijutsu portion of the art. Naginatajutsu, kogosoku, and kusarigamajutsu are all elements of the system I have not personally witnessed. But I bet it would be cool to watch some of the seniors do it.


 
Katsuse Yoshimitsu Kagehiro Sensei, serving as the 15th Generation Headmaster of Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo, has requested that we practice no other sword art except the Suio Ryu. This does not include Kendo. 

It is our understanding that this principle would also apply to other weapon systems that are found in Suio Ryu, if you have been taught the Suio Ryu Techniques.

Other non-sword arts may be practiced but one would find his time more than filled up with the teachings of the Ryu.

Please note that Katsuse Sensei is planning a visit to the United States in August, 2006.

Please visit our web site for more informtion:

http://suioryu-usa.org/


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## Kusarigama (Feb 24, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> There is supposedly methods of kogusoku in the system as well where they wear the shortsword while doing it. Makes things interesting.


 
The Kogusoku techniques are practiced using a Wakizashi/saya combination.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 24, 2006)

Well this is way off base.

I do not train in an JMA.

I do train with a Wakizashi in my FMA. I enjoy it. I like the weight of the blade.


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## kroh (Feb 25, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Well this is way off base.
> 
> I do not train in an JMA.
> 
> I do train with a Wakizashi in my FMA. I enjoy it. I like the weight of the blade.


 
Not really way off base Rich.  I know that there are some Kuntaw (kuntao) as well as some silat styles that use a blade similar to the wakizashi.  Certain bolo techniques are perfect for that blade too.  Very cool that you use one.  If you don't mind me asking, what kind of blade do you use (ie, who made it?)

Hey Britt, Thank you very much for giving me the info about the Suio Ryu.   Other than a few opportunities, I have yet to go back and train with them.  I have met and spoken with all of them and they are a great group of people.  Very soft spoen and polite with a good sense of humor.  I hope that the scheduale I have clears up a bit so that I can train with them soon.

Regards,
Walt


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## Walter Wong (Feb 26, 2006)

The Wakizashi behaves close to a Katana.  Just smaller and faster.  For Kenjutsu/Iai, the Wakizashi makes for a very powerful 2nd sword.


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