# Some interesting points from Klaus Brand



## KPM (Jan 16, 2017)

The 8 "mistakes" in a lot of people's Wing Chun!

The 8 Most Dangerous Mistakes of "Wing Chun" Systems | Sifu Klaus Brand • International Academy of WingChun • IAW EN


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## Callen (Jan 16, 2017)

Well, he does call himself a "Grandmaster of Wing Chun"... Guess he feels entitled to find "mistakes" in other Wing Chun system's core principals, assuming he'll be following up with how _his_ system provides unique answers to those mistakes mentioned.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 17, 2017)

I am so lost when I read that article. It made me ask myself one question: why does this guy even bother practicing Wing Chun, given how many principles he finds incorrect?


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## geezer (Jan 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> The 8 "mistakes" in a lot of people's Wing Chun!
> 
> The 8 Most Dangerous Mistakes of "Wing Chun" Systems | Sifu Klaus Brand • International Academy of WingChun • IAW EN




He seems to be over-reacting to some of the approaches taught in the EWTO ...where he came from. His WC has moved so far from it's WT roots that it almost looks like Karate -- at least in terms of how "hard" it is.  The only thing he hasn't changed is his uniform and hair-style which are a close copy of Leung Ting as he dressed and looked back in the 80s.


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## DanT (Jan 17, 2017)

I agree with a few of his points:

-guard hands too low
-too much weight on back leg
-too many punches per second
-punching always from the centre
-not using power (or just being weak in general)

Obviously we can talk about the advantages and disadvantages of having a back heavy stance for hours, but the low guard and throwing 1000 weak chain punches per second seems to be a big problem at least in my opinion that I see to often.


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## KPM (Jan 17, 2017)

DanT said:


> I agree with a few of his points:
> 
> -guard hands too low
> -too much weight on back leg
> ...



I agree with you Dan and had reached the same conclusion.  I think the article is a bit over-stated at times, but had good points in those areas.  Most modern fighters are definitely "head hunters" and WCK guys typically hold their guard too low.  Not having enough power and trying to throw the typical flurry of chain punches is also an all too common problem.  Punching from the center I did not agree with as he stated it.  But you included the qualification "always"...which is what I would agree with.  There is nothing wrong with punching from the center.  However, all too often that is the ONLY way WCK guys seem to know how to punch.  To be really effective you have to be able to punch well from multiple angles.  That's why I really like the way JKD will use hooks, shovel hooks to the body, overhand punches, etc as well as Wing Chun punches.


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## Marnetmar (Jan 17, 2017)

There isn't anything inherently wrong with the points he's making, but if you watch his demos its quite clear that the solutions he's coming up with are worse than the original problem:


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## DanT (Jan 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> I agree with you Dan and had reached the same conclusion.  I think the article is a bit over-stated at times, but had good points in those areas.  Most modern fighters are definitely "head hunters" and WCK guys typically hold their guard too low.  Not having enough power and trying to throw the typical flurry of chain punches is also an all too common problem.  Punching from the center I did not agree with as he stated it.  But you included the qualification "always"...which is what I would agree with.  There is nothing wrong with punching from the center.  However, all too often that is the ONLY way WCK guys seem to know how to punch.  To be really effective you have to be able to punch well from multiple angles.  That's why I really like the way JKD will use hooks, shovel hooks to the body, overhand punches, etc as well as Wing Chun punches.


 I agree 100%.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> The 8 "mistakes" in a lot of people's Wing Chun!
> 
> The 8 Most Dangerous Mistakes of "Wing Chun" Systems | Sifu Klaus Brand • International Academy of WingChun • IAW EN


Under informed nonsense goes on


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## wingchun100 (Jan 17, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> Under informed nonsense goes on


 
Just like the beat goes on.


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## Cephalopod (Jan 17, 2017)

I'm all in favor of the importance of striking power...but...
If one may dare to judge from his videos, it seem that he and I have differing opinions on what power, well, _is.
_
Imagine if you will...

Tiger Woods has just smoked off a 380 yard drive. He pauses at the end of the swing. His arms and shoulders are flexed and his veins are bulging. His whole body trembles and quivers from the effort. The end of his club shakes erratically. His reddening face is locked in a grimace of supreme exertion...

Sounds ridiculous? Of course!

Why is it any less ridiculous for a fighter / martial artist?


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## drop bear (Jan 17, 2017)

The one puch a second was a bit silly.  I am all for hitting people hard.  But i am pretty sure i can get a combination in a bit faster than that. 

I also spar guys who are notorious for not dropping from a single punch


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## drop bear (Jan 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> I agree with you Dan and had reached the same conclusion.  I think the article is a bit over-stated at times, but had good points in those areas.  Most modern fighters are definitely "head hunters" and WCK guys typically hold their guard too low.  Not having enough power and trying to throw the typical flurry of chain punches is also an all too common problem.  Punching from the center I did not agree with as he stated it.  But you included the qualification "always"...which is what I would agree with.  There is nothing wrong with punching from the center.  However, all too often that is the ONLY way WCK guys seem to know how to punch.  To be really effective you have to be able to punch well from multiple angles.  That's why I really like the way JKD will use hooks, shovel hooks to the body, overhand punches, etc as well as Wing Chun punches.



You could to a certain level get away with pretty much just straight punching. But you would need to constantly cut angles better than they do.


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## KPM (Jan 17, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> Under informed nonsense goes on



And....another one-liner drive-by negative comment without elaboration.


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## Juany118 (Jan 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> I agree with you Dan and had reached the same conclusion.  I think the article is a bit over-stated at times, but had good points in those areas.  Most modern fighters are definitely "head hunters" and WCK guys typically hold their guard too low.  Not having enough power and trying to throw the typical flurry of chain punches is also an all too common problem.  Punching from the center I did not agree with as he stated it.  But you included the qualification "always"...which is what I would agree with.  There is nothing wrong with punching from the center.  However, all too often that is the ONLY way WCK guys seem to know how to punch.  To be really effective you have to be able to punch well from multiple angles.  That's why I really like the way JKD will use hooks, shovel hooks to the body, overhand punches, etc as well as Wing Chun punches.



When I read @Danny T 's response I wanted to say "so he wants to study TWC" .  The higher guard and largely 50/50 weight distribution are among the things often pointed out as different from other YM derived WC Lineages.  

However I don't see the rest as actually being reality in any WC I am aware of, if they exist they exist because of the teacher, not the art.  Yeah back in the 80's Sigung Cheung was tested by the University of Boston and punched for an average of over 8 punches a second that was demonstration only and we largely use chain punching simply as a training tool, it's not really a focus when it comes to fighting. This, in my experience is true of most Wing Chun.

Same with strikes, primarily WC strikes along the center line but I also have seen practitioners of other WC Lineages use an "L-Hook" punch (we call it a "Buffalo punch" in my school) as just one example.

Now I don't know the specifics of the WC taught by the Ting organization but based on my experience and research I got the feeling from reading that most of the "issues" he sees are things born of either his own ignorance, or he knows better but wants to take advantage of the ignorance of those whose experience with WC comes from a brief dabble, bad Sifu and/or YouTube videos.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 18, 2017)

geezer said:


> He seems to be over-reacting to some of the approaches taught in the EWTO ...where he came from. His WC has moved so far from it's WT roots that it almost looks like Karate -- at least in terms of how "hard" it is.  The only thing he hasn't changed is his uniform and hair-style which are a close copy of Leung Ting as he dressed and looked back in the 80s.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 18, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> [/QUOT
> 
> Geezer- right on target


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## Danny T (Jan 18, 2017)

Based upon the Wing Chun training I have and other lineages I've been exposed to I'm of the opinion this is not the same WC I know.


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## Juany118 (Jan 19, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Based upon the Wing Chun training I have and other lineages I've been exposed to I'm of the opinion this is not the same WC I know.


If you are talking about his "new" system, agreed.

I was more speaking to why Brand would make such a new system, while taking obvious pot shots at the "old" since some of those critiques made little sense to me, unless they were gross exaggerations for marketing purposes.  Sorry if it came off differently.


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## KPM (Jan 19, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> If you are talking about his "new" system, agreed.
> 
> I was more speaking to why Brand would make such a new system, while taking obvious pot shots at the "old" since some of those critiques made little sense to me, unless they were gross exaggerations for marketing purposes.  Sorry if it came off differently.



I think is was an exaggeration for marketing purposes.  However, as noted before Dan T and I agree that these points were fairly accurate for far too many WIng Chun people:

-guard hands too low
-too much weight on back leg
-too many punches per second
-punching always from the centre
-not using power (or just being weak in general)


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## Juany118 (Jan 19, 2017)

KPM said:


> I think is was an exaggeration for marketing purposes.  However, as noted before Dan T and I agree that these points were fairly accurate for far too many WIng Chun people:
> 
> -guard hands too low
> -too much weight on back leg
> ...



I highlighted the three that I found off.  (already agreed that while the first 2 aren't issues in TWC, they are in others).  I have seen the highlighted ones as things that often happen in the beginning but are "corrected" later if you have a good Sifu.  Now there are bad Sifu's that do the above no doubt, just trying to point out I don't think it's quite as universal as the criticism linked in the OP is universal.

From my experience, and those of acquaintances, some WC instructors teach the first two almost exclusively in order to ingrain the principles early on, not to train for actual fighting.  The last I highlighted, when it happens, can be a consequence of the first.  Some don't teach power, at first, because they are afraid (and I have actually seen it happen) that someone may focus too much on power and lose the ideas of relaxation and speed of a single punch, so they miss out on training some basic principles.

Let me explain in a bit more detail what I mean.  I was taught chain punching and punching from the center the following reasons.  
1. to punch in a manner that maintains a degree of relaxation at certain points (don't tense up in the shoulder so it doesn't rise, telegraphing the punch.  Also to relax once your force is transferred so you can reposition that limb as needed more rapidly.)
2. to ensure you simply execute a straight punch properly.  Maybe it's just my instructor but we will actually use an adjustable reflex bag like this for some chain punching drills because the bag shows you if your straight punch is striking as it should.  Not simply the orientation of the arm but also the wrist/fist.  It's adjustability lets you refine where it flexes and how much to really get the technique down.  Not traditional training with this device but it works in my experience.





While the specific training methods may be different this is my experience in terms of purpose and it's shared by others who train in schools of different lineages in my area.  Yes the "brand new" student may be taught these two things before using power and that punching along the centerline isn't your only option, for the reason I noted above (above others). That doesn't mean that they are never taught the use of power.  Some teachers may indeed make the student wait a bit, but the time does come with many teachers.

That is why I proposed he may be also trying to take advantage of the "new" student to WC who doesn't quite understand the real purpose.  The idea of crawl>walk>run that many TMA's tend to use in training isn't necessarily something all students get these days.  I was just spitballing earlier that some of the criticisms we see here might be designed for the new and impatient student of WC.  Just spitballing though and obviously my experience is limited to my own training and that of those I am personally acquainted with.  /shrug


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## wckf92 (Jan 19, 2017)

Trying to follow this thread...
Why do some here think that "guard hands too low" is an issue?
Perhaps the WC'er is simply baiting his opponent(?)


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## KPM (Jan 19, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Trying to follow this thread...
> Why do some here think that "guard hands too low" is an issue?
> Perhaps the WC'er is simply baiting his opponent(?)



Well, there is a reason that boxers in training are quite frequently reminded to "keep your hands up!"   Holding guard hands too low is essentially the same as having no guard at all in this age where most fighters are "head hunters."   Baiting is one thing, but we are talking about a default or standard guard position.


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## Juany118 (Jan 19, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Trying to follow this thread...
> Why do some here think that "guard hands too low" is an issue?
> Perhaps the WC'er is simply baiting his opponent(?)


It's fine to bait an opponent at the "right moment" however in a real fight you can't have your "default" stance as a bait stance.  Not every opponent is easy to bait or "set up".  Some can't be at all.

It's actually why I shake my head in some debates.  I have said that when you fight you have to understand that your opponent is his/her own person, that they will make their own decisions so you have to be able to not just fight your own game (baiting, setting them up etc) but flow with that opponent and their game.  Let them show you when and where to strike when you can't, for whatever reason, impose your will on them.  Some think WC can somehow miraculously do something no other martial art can do, win solely by baiting and imposing your will upon the opponent.  This simply isn't possible as a universal concept in a real fight.  Thus if your primary "ready stance" is based on this concept, you are going to have issues when your opponent has enough skill, talent and/or experience to not be baited.


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## Juany118 (Jan 19, 2017)

KPM said:


> Well, there is a reason that boxers in training are quite frequently reminded to "keep your hands up!"   Holding guard hands too low is essentially the same as having no guard at all in this age where most fighters are "head hunters."   Baiting is one thing, but we are talking about a default or standard guard position.



Exactly.  You can actually see this in practice in MMA, I like to use the Rousey fights as an example.  She has an awesome ground game and used to dominate with it.  She would attempt to "bait" and impose her will on her opponent's to get to that ground game.  The two times she got destroyed by better strikers you see the strikers 1. Not taking the bait and 2. Flowing with her. 

She tries to bait them and move in for a take down?  They flowed with her, maintaining their striking range while staying outside her takedown range, all along raining blows where she left herself open to them because she had opened her guard as she moved for the takedown she couldn't get.  They closed and let her tell them where to hit.

The same things happens on the street and it doesn't even take a trained fighter.  An experienced brawler has learned the concepts the "hard way."


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## anerlich (Jan 22, 2017)

If that arm is holding a weapon, I definitely want to keep contact with / a hold of it.


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## Juany118 (Jan 22, 2017)

anerlich said:


> If that arm is holding a weapon, I definitely want to keep contact with / a hold of it.



Yes indeed, there are times when both are unarmed that this is important as well.  The main point about the idea of flow I mentioned is that you can't try to "force" it.  If, for whatever reason, you can't connect on your terms and you try to force it to happen anyway, you'll get clocked in a fist fight, stabbed in a knife fight etc.  Sometimes we can't even get control of that limb with the knife when we want to so you need to use distance and timing to avoid it until you can get that blade on your terms.  

Now "your terms" doesn't mean unscathed.  You can't be afraid of getting "just cut" or taking a punch, but like in the Rousey fights you can't just keep hanging your head against the wall.


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