# Kempo Jujitsu/ Cross-training with Bujinkan Ninjutsu



## Ryan_ (Jun 5, 2018)

Hey, I am currently a 9th kyu student in Bujinkan Ninjutsu but I have also considered cross-training and was wondering if any of the members here have studied both and could tell me whether these styles compliment each others techniques?


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

What I say may start a war of words but here goes 

Ninjutsu oh dear your being conned I'm afraid as it is not what you thin or are being taught it is ...yes Ninja did exist but there are no un broken lineage schools ...no matter what they claim they are not authentic and definitely not is in any way what you are being taught. 

In answer to your question Train in an art that has lineage and is what it claims to be and can prove it (even modern systems ) don't waste your time with any so called Ninja school ...they are not real ...it may be fun but it not real ...what they are teaching is no secret art it is taken form other arts and if you do not believe me go look at the research and look at the scrolls and when the last one was actually written ...you might get a shock


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## Ryan_ (Jun 5, 2018)

Yes, there are many frauds in martial arts and especially ninjutsu, but having done my research and actually attended classes - I am definitely satisfied with my training.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

Ok but you are being conned sir as what you are being taught is not what they are claiming ...they may be teaching you techniques etc but it is not ninjutsu lol...go look at the scrolls and in them I do not think that you will find any of your hand to hand stuff nor your sword stuff 

What they are claiming is not what ninjutsu is ...


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

Go and train with a good dojo that will teach you authentic tech ...There are many many on here that will teach you good sound skills that do have a lineage and can prove it ...what you are studying is not in any way what you think it is ...it is not Ko-ryu


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## Ryan_ (Jun 5, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Ok but you are being conned sir as what you are being taught is not what they are claiming ...they may be teaching you techniques etc but it is not ninjutsu lol...go look at the scrolls and in them I do not think that you will find any of your hand to hand stuff nor your sword stuff
> 
> What they are claiming is not what ninjutsu is ...



Of course it's not ninjutsu - that art died hundreds of years ago - that does not also mean i'm being conned. Bujinkan ninjutsu is specifically stated often as ninpo taijutsu or otherwise to avoid the confusion between them. The ancient "shadow warriors" were very good, and I doubt they left many traces...

Also for the lineage - it was very easy to trace my instructors back to the founder of the art (who happens to also have his lineage published online)

If anyone is able to help me and tell me if these two arts would compliment each other, that would be great.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

Sorry you misunderstood me ...I am not knocking you or your teacher 

Shinobi no mono are pretty well documented in fact and there is no taijutsu  hence why I said what I did .... 

Yes your founder is a very gifted man in many ways and he is a very good Martial artist of that there is no doubt and yes I have seen his lineage many times and yup when I lived in Japan but it still is not ninjutsu ...if you do not believe me then and why should you ...go and ask a native Japanese that is a martial artist and they will tell you 

If you want a system then look at Daito-ryu or even Nihon Goshin Aikido they will serve you way better


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

As for the Sword ...staff etc then there are a wide variety of schools that will teach you that some Ko-ryu and some gendai budo seriously they will serve you better and longer and have a wealth of depth that no ninjutsu or whatever it is called has or will ever have


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> What I say may start a war of words but here goes
> 
> Ninjutsu oh dear your being conned I'm afraid as it is not what you thin or are being taught it is ...yes Ninja did exist but there are no un broken lineage schools ...no matter what they claim they are not authentic and definitely not is in any way what you are being taught.
> 
> In answer to your question Train in an art that has lineage and is what it claims to be and can prove it (even modern systems ) don't waste your time with any so called Ninja school ...they are not real ...it may be fun but it not real ...what they are teaching is no secret art it is taken form other arts and if you do not believe me go look at the research and look at the scrolls and when the last one was actually written ...you might get a shock


Lineage is only as important as we consider it to be. Many arts have myths, legends, exaggerations, misunderstandings, and even outright falsehoods in their lineage stories. None of that really has much effect upon the usefulness or suitability of the art.


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## Headhunter (Jun 5, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> What I say may start a war of words but here goes
> 
> Ninjutsu oh dear your being conned I'm afraid as it is not what you thin or are being taught it is ...yes Ninja did exist but there are no un broken lineage schools ...no matter what they claim they are not authentic and definitely not is in any way what you are being taught.
> 
> In answer to your question Train in an art that has lineage and is what it claims to be and can prove it (even modern systems ) don't waste your time with any so called Ninja school ...they are not real ...it may be fun but it not real ...what they are teaching is no secret art it is taken form other arts and if you do not believe me go look at the research and look at the scrolls and when the last one was actually written ...you might get a shock


The op wasn't asking for your opinion on his style he was asking about cross training in another style


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Sorry you misunderstood me ...I am not knocking you or your teacher
> 
> Shinobi no mono are pretty well documented in fact and there is no taijutsu  hence why I said what I did ....
> 
> ...


How does that one word - and its implied or stated lineage - change the suitability of the art?

Heck, NGA has some questionable provenance. As does Daito-ryu. It's entirely possible neither is precisely what their most recognized proponent/founder stated. That doesn't really change the techniques.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

my apologies ... I stand corrected 

I was not knocking anyone at all I was merely stating that there is no such thing as taijutsu contained within ninjustsu my mistake


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## Headhunter (Jun 5, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> my apologies ... I stand corrected
> 
> I was not knocking anyone at all I was merely stating that there is no such thing as taijutsu contained within ninjustsu my mistake


No you didn't you literally said he was being conned by taking ninjutsu


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

Ok conned may be the wrong word 

But there is no direct anything in Ninjutsu there are the manuals and there are the claims but none of the claims stand up and there is and there never ever was any taijutsu in Ninjutsu no where in any of the scrolls will you find that 

sorry I just cringe when ninjutsu is stated as it is not what most seem to think it was ...and was is the word


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## wab25 (Jun 5, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> If anyone is able to help me and tell me if these two arts would compliment each other, that would be great.


I advise people to pick an art to start with, then get a good basis in that art. Once you have a basis in an art, then you can branch out and study different arts. The reason I say this is because at the beginning, each art is trying to mold you into the way they do things. The way they move, the way they respond the way they attack. This is not only teaching you the techniques, but the principles and strategies. They are laying your foundation, upon which you will build your art. It is very hard to lay two different foundations, at the same time. What you will most likely end up with is a random assortment of different techniques. Once you have a solid foundation, you can add to that foundation with new principles, new strategies... But, you will be adding to a solid foundation.

As to those particular arts... pick the one you like best to be your primary art. As far as I am concerned, they are both fine arts... which one will you train more regularly?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> Hey, I am currently a 9th kyu student in Bujinkan Ninjutsu but I have also considered cross-training and was wondering if any of the members here have studied both and could tell me whether these styles compliment each others techniques?


When you say that you're a 9th kyu, how long does that mean you've been training? I'm unfamiliar with the #of ranks or time in rank in bujinkan, and my response will depend on that


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 5, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> When you say that you're a 9th kyu, how long does that mean you've been training? I'm unfamiliar with the #of ranks or time in rank in bujinkan, and my response will depend on that


9th kyu is the first rank in the Bujinkan, and it usually doesn’t take long to be promoted. Most likely the OP has not been training more than a few months.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> 9th kyu is the first rank in the Bujinkan, and it usually doesn’t take long to be promoted. Most likely the OP has not been training more than a few months.


In this case, my recommendation to @Ryan_ is that he stays just focused on Bujinkan for the moment, at least for the first year or so. From what I understand of Bujinkan, the styles are close enough in purpose, but different enough in action, that it may slow progress down at the start.

Regarding the stuff about you being conned, I wouldn't worry about that. Bujinkan is a legitimate system, from what I understand, and we have no way of knowing from just what you've told us if your teacher is legitimate, or being straight-forward or not with you. Just like you can't know just by knowing I train PTK if I'm being conned or not.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

Guys that word was the wrong choice of word and that is my fault ...

I am in no way saying that the teacher is not teaching properly or that there is any fault with the op 

I was referring to the use of Ninjutsu that was my fault not to make that clearer. That was my mistake


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Guys that word was the wrong choice of word and that is my fault ...
> 
> I am in no way saying that the teacher is not teaching properly or that there is any fault with the op
> 
> I was referring to the use of Ninjutsu that was my fault not to make that clearer. That was my mistake


I get what you're saying, and in general agree with it. People see the word ninjutsu and think it's something it's not (and I would not be surprised if that's done intentionally, or even marketed that way). I just wanted to make sure OP knew that the style itself could still be legitimate, even if the name of the overall style is misleading.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 5, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I get what you're saying, and in general agree with it. People see the word ninjutsu and think it's something it's not (and I would not be surprised if that's done intentionally, or even marketed that way). I just wanted to make sure OP knew that the style itself could still be legitimate, even if the name of the overall style is misleading.



That cool as I said what is being taught I do not know and as you say it could be quite effective and the teacher could and probably is very genuine.

It was and is a marketing style and that grew from the Ninja boom era of the TV and Movies and it was and still is to some extent a money maker. It just always makes me cringe when I here that word and then anything tagged onto it. There is no doubt that Ninjutsu existed but as a Martial Art alone it really did not and it was most certainly not a hand to hand combat art ... Yes some of the "Ninja" were from more humble backgrounds but then some again were Samurai and Ninjutsu was taught in the schools that the Samurai studied in ...yes all be it only to a select few but it was not some mystical underground all defeating art and there was no taijutsu at all lol


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2018)

In general cross training anything with anything works because it develops your martial skill in a different context. Which develops better body control and mental elasticity.
(The short version of that concept)

But bujinkan. I haven't seen any that is good and instructors I have met kind of freak me out a bit. And may crack a collective fit if you cross train.


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## Ryan_ (Jun 5, 2018)

My instructor grades every 25 lessons - Funnily enough my lesson today, my instructor made it clear that what we were doing was jujitsu techniques.

While I did start this thread to seek advice - I didn't plan on starting another for a while at least, but my thought was closer to a few months than to a year.

I will be training bujinkan more regularly ( 2 classes per week in town vs 1 class per week)

Thanks for the advice everyone.


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## Ryan_ (Jun 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> In general cross training anything with anything works because it develops your martial skill in a different context. Which develops better body control and mental elasticity.
> (The short version of that concept)
> 
> But bujinkan. I haven't seen any that is good and instructors I have met kind of freak me out a bit. And may crack a collective fit if you cross train.


I wouldn't worry about my instructor minding cross-training, considering there was another person who cross-trained BJJ


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> I wouldn't worry about my instructor minding cross-training, considering there was another person who cross-trained BJJ



Cool. then wrestle.

Wrestling is the absolute bare bones of grappling. Which is almost the core of understanding human movement when it comes to fighting. 

And understanding how fighting works in real time.

There are other arts that will take the concept further like BJJ for example.But wrestling will pretty much transport into every other martial art.

If the only thing you learn is willpower. You will still be miles ahead of other martial artists.


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## Ryan_ (Jun 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Cool. then wrestle.
> 
> Wrestling is the absolute bare bones of grappling. Which is almost the core of understanding human movement when it comes to fighting.
> 
> ...


The only things close (and i'm being generous here) for me are:
Judo
kenpo jujitsu
ninjutsu
Kuk Sool won


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> The only things close (and i'm being generous here) for me are:
> Judo
> kenpo jujitsu
> ninjutsu
> Kuk Sool won



Do judo then.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2018)

To the OP: I've just agreed with @drop bear on his suggest of Judo. When the two of us agree on something, it's either indisputable genius, or completely wrong. I'll leave it to you to figure out which it was this time.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> To the OP: I've just agreed with @drop bear on his suggest of Judo. When the two of us agree on something, it's either indisputable genius, or completely wrong. I'll leave it to you to figure out which it was this time.



hell must have frozen over because i agree as well.  however he will probably disagree with my agreement with him and i will have to disagree with that disagreement.......so maybe everything is still ok in the world.


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> To the OP: I've just agreed with @drop bear on his suggest of Judo. When the two of us agree on something, it's either indisputable genius, or completely wrong. I'll leave it to you to figure out which it was this time.



You just like agreeing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You just like agreeing.


Had to be done.


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## dunc (Jun 7, 2018)

Hi

Cross training is generally a good thing as long as where the styles overlap you're clear on why things are done differently and choose your approach wisely

The issue for beginners doing this is that you'll get a lot of conflicting advice/tuition and if you're not really, really clear on what you want to achieve and therefore how to navigate those conflicts it can confuse you and slow down your progression

Generally I agree with the advice to reach a decent level of proficiency in one style first, but it's not a hard and fast rule

I don't really know Kenpo Jujutsu, so can't comment on how well it would compliment Bujinkan Taijutsu training. The Bujinkan is a very open/adaptable style with deep roots in Japan so it tends to work well other styles with Japanese origins (BJJ, Judo, Koryu etc) and finding a style with a degree of sparring will help you as the Bujinkan doesn't do much of this kind of training (again it's important to understand why and be clear on your objectives as they relate to pressure/sparring)

If anyone is interested in the lineages of the old school arts taught in the Bujinkan then you may enjoy reading:
1) Sean Askew's posts on facebook etc - he's sharing a lot of his research into working his way back up the lineage and it's both fascinating and rigorous
2) Kacem Zoughari' book on the history of ninjutsu and how this relates to the Bujinkan. Kacem has a PHD in this stuff from a Japanese university

Probably, given some of the passionate, but in my view ill-informed posts here it would make sense to educate oneself on this topic 

Hope this helps


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## oldwarrior (Jun 7, 2018)

Can I then ask what are the deep roots of the Bunjinkan ???

And what lineages are you referring to ....???


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## dunc (Jun 7, 2018)

I'm no historian so am probably not the best person to opine on Bujinkan history

If you're interested in the subject then I'd suggest looking into the sources outlined above - they're going to be better informed than folks with varying degrees of knowledge posting on this forum


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## drop bear (Jun 7, 2018)

Op. Why are you doing martial arts in the first place?


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## oldwarrior (Jun 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Op. Why are you doing martial arts in the first place?




Were you asking me that question?


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## pdg (Jun 8, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Were you asking me that question?



He asked OP - that's Original Poster - the person who started the thread (or Original/Opening post, like "as mentioned in the OP")...


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## oldwarrior (Jun 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> He asked OP - that's Original Poster - the person who started the thread (or Original/Opening post, like "as mentioned in the OP")...



Ok sorry need to put my glasses on lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 8, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Ok sorry need to put my glasses on lol


Well, you're not OLDwarrior for nothing.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Well, you're not OLDwarrior for nothing.




LOL this is true ....just found my glasses ....and the bonus is........now I can see to oil the wheels on my walking frame to lol


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## oldwarrior (Jun 8, 2018)

dunc said:


> I'm no historian so am probably not the best person to opine on Bujinkan history
> 
> If you're interested in the subject then I'd suggest looking into the sources outlined above - they're going to be better informed than folks with varying degrees of knowledge posting on this forum




I am not going to get into a muck figh with you over the Bujinkan or Ninjutsu ok ...I'm not ill informed lol (blind without my glasses lol) Yes the word "conned" was strong and needed to be rephrased but apart from that all I said can stand up ...


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 8, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Can I then ask what are the deep roots of the Bunjinkan ???
> 
> And what lineages are you referring to ....???


Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. These are historically verified Koryu arts that Takamatsu (Hatsumi’s teacher) is known to be a credentialed master in. (They aren’t “ninjutsu” arts,  but only 3 of the claimed 9 arts which make up the foundation of the Bujinkan are supposedly ninjutsu.)

We don’t know whether the other systems which are listed under the Bujinkan’s auspices have a history preceding Takamatsu, but those 2 are legit.


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## dunc (Jun 8, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> I am not going to get into a muck figh with you over the Bujinkan or Ninjutsu ok ...



Cool and thanks



oldwarrior said:


> I'm not ill informed lol (blind without my glasses lol) Yes the word "conned" was strong and needed to be rephrased but apart from that all I said can stand up ...



Apologies - I didn't mean to suggest that you were in informed, just that a lot of posters on this subject seem not to have done much research

Separate question, but have you looked into the research done by Kacem and Sean that I referenced to & if so what are your thoughts?


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## Ryan_ (Jun 8, 2018)

As for why I started martial arts-
I originally studied Kong Soo Do when I was very young (around 7, I think) because I was getting bullied so my parents let me learn that so I could learn to defend myself. I eventually left there due to personal reasons, and started learning Bujinkan due to me wanting to get back into MA of some form.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 10, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> As for why I started martial arts-
> I originally studied Kong Soo Do when I was very young (around 7, I think) because I was getting bullied so my parents let me learn that so I could learn to defend myself. I eventually left there due to personal reasons, and started learning Bujinkan due to me wanting to get back into MA of some form.




We all have our reasons for studying our Arts and they are all personal and it is a personal journey what we get out of them too ...

The question I would suggest you ask yourself is why if you are just starting in the organisation and discipline you are do you feel you want to cross train ...

Forget the muck fights on lineage or credibility etc ... there has to be a reason that you feel so early on that you wish to cross train ...Only you can answer that question to yourself ...it does not matter what anyone else says (we all have and do have differing opinions and advice lol) ... All I would say and ask is why so early on ? ... Do you feel something is lacking in the system you are training in (no not knocking it at all just posing a uestion to ask himself) as so early on you are not going to see and get everything ... Patience may hold the key !!!??? Going to another system at the same time would it not more confuse as opposed to add to? 

I know even to this day as I have started by adding another discipline the instructor is forever having to say to me wrong stance and youe moving on your balls (feet) you should be on your heels. What I am trying to say is it confusing to me lol (ok I'm thick and old lol) but if I had done that at the start it could and may well have totally thrown me and then I would have achieved little ...

Just my thoughts as to things and maybe what you should be asking yourself before turning to others... get the answers from yourself then ask away ...if there is something missing then ask the folks where can I find that etc ....

anyways good luck and I hope you find your system/art and the answers from within


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. These are historically verified Koryu arts that Takamatsu (Hatsumi’s teacher) is known to be a credentialed master in. (They aren’t “ninjutsu” arts,  but only 3 of the claimed 9 arts which make up the foundation of the Bujinkan are supposedly ninjutsu.)
> 
> We don’t know whether the other systems which are listed under the Bujinkan’s auspices have a history preceding Takamatsu, but those 2 are legit.



Would this traditional Koryu art look anything at all like the black pyjamas training I would actually do should I walk in to a bujinkan dojo?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Would this traditional Koryu art look anything at all like the black pyjamas training I would actually do should I walk in to a bujinkan dojo?


It depends on the individual school. Some actually teach specific (2 person) katas from the original arts. Some are more focused on moves which are based on the principles of the older arts as interpreted by Hatsumi or the teachers under him. I think that this process of creative interpretation can sometimes get pretty far from the original source.

I have been told that when Takamatsu created his own branch of the older arts that he did make significant technical changes. Whether anyone but a student of another branch of Kukushin Ryu or Takagi Yoshin Ryu would notice those changes, I don’t know.

I do know that the training culture of the Bujinkan is significantly different from the koryu arts in general. However there is a genuine connection to the historical arts.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 10, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It depends on the individual school. Some actually teach specific (2 person) katas from the original arts. Some are more focused on moves which are based on the principles of the older arts as interpreted by Hatsumi or the teachers under him. I think that this process of creative interpretation can sometimes get pretty far from the original source.
> 
> I have been told that when Takamatsu created his own branch of the older arts that he did make significant technical changes. Whether
> anyone but a student of another branch of Kukushin Ryu or Takagi Yoshin Ryu would notice those changes, I don’t know.
> ...




All the Koryu have changed over time ...they have evolved to suit the times in which they are in /were in ...From the early years of the Tokugawa era (Edo period) they were not really needed as such and the Tokugawa for obvious reasons wanted the schools curbed to an extent ...I dont think I need to go into how they ran Japan and why it very well known. There were still shinobi-no-mono for sure but the numbers declined. From the time of the Meiji restoration onwards esp after the acts that basically "stopped" the Samurai class the shinobi-no-mono basically disappeared as well as they were no longer needed. 

Was Takamatsu shinobi-no-mono that I think is open to debate ...was he a skilled MA yes probably however again some of his exploits are again very open to debate. Is Hatsumi shinobi-no-mono ...no he is not ...is he Takamatsu's successor yes but as to if he has carried on it as Koryu in the schools he teaches ...again very open to debate. 

There is no hand to hand combat in Ninjutsu (read the shinobi scrolls and I don't think you will find any !!!) ...Shinobi were on the most part Samurai (ok lower class) or Ashigaru they were not Hinin (ok some maybe fell into that after the reduction and then the collapse of the Samurai class) and there were I do not think any total Sinobi schools (not even at the time of the Iga and Koka ) Shinobi techniques were taught yes but as part of a Ryu not as a stand alone. 

I guess the Bunjinkan gave and still does in certain terms give of the impression that it is a Ninja school ... It is not and never was or will be. 

As far as the black pj's lol well possibly they may have worn black (makes sense at night ) but if they were going in during daylight then they would have worn what they locals wore or whatever "army" they were infiltrating wore down even to the same style of embroidery and sword cords ...and all the rubbish about the mask is just that lol as in none of the scrolls is there any mention of that nor in any of the art work of the time that (I know of). You might think as it the iconic thing they might just have shown it or mentioned it in the scrolls lol!!! 

This is going to probably stir up muck but well I gonna say it anyway ... The Saaki test that Hatsumi did or does is well best described as what comes out of a bulls backside lol... I have no doubt that there are people who can sense things and preempt but his test is well as I said.

The Bunjinkan was formed I think in the 80's and that should tell something in itself lol... and it it did ride on the coat tails of the movie ...and comic industries and vice versa ...do they teach things that work...that up to the individual to decide are some of the schools descended from Koryu ... yes and no 

The Bunjinkan is what it is and no more ...but it will always stir up serious debate and conflict as to what it is


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## oldwarrior (Jun 10, 2018)

Oh and may aswell add that the iconic ninja sword (ninjato) it don't exist in reality lol...that an invention ...they used swords and yep possibly if they were going indoors they would carry a shorter one lol... and it may or may not have had a square tsuba ... but that would have been for practical reasons as if anyone has been in a traditional japanese house ...it has low beams ...so weilding a full size katana ummm it might get stuck and that be a bit of a problem lol so they probably did use a shorter version , it has been suggested that they may even have used a sword like that fashioned out of a naginata blade ...but a ninjato as portrayed ummm no ...and surprise surprise none of them have been found lol...plenty of that era of katana etc but no ninjato lol .............!!!!!!!!!


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## Ryan_ (Jun 10, 2018)

Reason I want to cross-train is mainly for competition which there is very little of in Bujinkan. 

However, I got the information I was looking for from this thread and thanks to those who contributed.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 10, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> Reason I want to cross-train is mainly for competition which there is very little of in Bujinkan.
> 
> However, I got the information I was looking for from this thread and thanks to those who contributed.




Then you have just answered the question to yourself ... Look to the arts that have a competition element and if that is what you wish to pursue then to be any good at that you may have to switch styles as confusion may enter the field ...just a thought


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 10, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Oh and may aswell add that the iconic ninja sword (ninjato) it don't exist in reality lol...that an invention ...they used swords and yep possibly if they were going indoors they would carry a shorter one lol... and it may or may not have had a square tsuba ... but that would have been for practical reasons as if anyone has been in a traditional japanese house ...it has low beams ...so weilding a full size katana ummm it might get stuck and that be a bit of a problem lol so they probably did use a shorter version , it has been suggested that they may even have used a sword like that fashioned out of a naginata blade ...but a ninjato as portrayed ummm no ...and surprise surprise none of them have been found lol...plenty of that era of katana etc but no ninjato lol .............!!!!!!!!!


Yeah, from what I understand the straight “ninjato” is a product of stage and film.

However, it’s also not something normally used in the Bujinkan either. Some of Steve Hayes’s early books mention them, but he wasn’t actually a very experienced practitioner at the time he wrote those and they contain a fair amount of misinformation.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 10, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, from what I understand the straight “ninjato” is a product of stage and film.
> 
> However, it’s also not something normally used in the Bujinkan either. Some of Steve Hayes’s early books mention them, but he wasn’t actually a very experienced practitioner at the time he wrote those and they contain a fair amount of misinformation.




the first appearance of the "ninjato" was actually in a comic lol...I forget the one but it was from the 50's I think (I stand to be corrected on that) ...Stephen Hayes took a lot of heat on what you refer to and that was due in part to guess who lol... he really took alot of very unfair heat on that as he did not invent it etc ...that was done in Japan lol


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## dunc (Jun 11, 2018)

The Togakure Ryu sword is a particular style - shorter (curved) blade, standard length handle and scabbard
Hatsumi has been very consistent on this, he's published dimensions etc publicly and in over 25 years of visiting him in Japan I've never seen him or any of his students talk about a straight ninjato 

However, Hatsumi-sensei does talk about the historical evolution of swords in Japan and simplistically they evolved from straight blades to curved tachi to katana, with a bit of polarms thrown in for good measure. The length of the blades changed over time as well. Sometimes he shows how the techniques would change according to the characteristics of the sword that you're using. Maybe this is where Hayes got it from...


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## oldwarrior (Jun 11, 2018)

dunc said:


> The Togakure Ryu sword is a particular style - shorter (curved) blade, standard length handle and scabbard
> Hatsumi has been very consistent on this, he's published dimensions etc publicly and in over 25 years of visiting him in Japan I've never seen him or any of his students talk about a straight ninjato
> 
> However, Hatsumi-sensei does talk about the historical evolution of swords in Japan and simplistically they evolved from straight blades to curved tachi to katana, with a bit of polarms thrown in for good measure. The length of the blades changed over time as well. Sometimes he shows how the techniques would change according to the characteristics of the sword that you're using. Maybe this is where Hayes got it from...




No buddy he didn't get it from there lol ....I'm not going to go into it big time but he took alot of heat for that and it genuinely wasn't his fault ... 

There is and always will be controversy surrounding Hatsumi ...just bear in mind the way the Japanese do things ...By that I mean it is face and that should more or less say it all ....no one in Japan will publicly say much as it loses face and as Hatsumi has been honoured then if they do then they lose face ...it is enough to know that he knows that they know and if that don't make sense then ...well you don't get how things work there lol....(and that is not a personal slur on you  btw)


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## dunc (Jun 11, 2018)

I'd genuinely be interested to know how how the straight ninja sword thing came around
As someone who's been kicking around the buj for many years with good connections in Japan (& some understanding of how things work there culturally) my conclusion is that it was most probably a misunderstanding stemming from the discussion of the broader evolution of swords in Japan 

I have only ever seen the Togakure Ryu sword being positioned as having a shorter curved blade, normal sized handle & scabbard
FWIW some swords of this style have survived, but probably other ryu / people used similar tactics too


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 11, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> Reason I want to cross-train is mainly for competition which there is very little of in Bujinkan.
> 
> However, I got the information I was looking for from this thread and thanks to those who contributed.


If your goal is to compete, im seconding (fourthing?) The judo idea. And this is coming from someone with a kempo-jujitsu background. Theres just a better competitive field for judo


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## Ryan_ (Jun 12, 2018)

dunc said:


> I'd genuinely be interested to know how how the straight ninja sword thing came around
> As someone who's been kicking around the buj for many years with good connections in Japan (& some understanding of how things work there culturally) my conclusion is that it was most probably a misunderstanding stemming from the discussion of the broader evolution of swords in Japan
> 
> I have only ever seen the Togakure Ryu sword being positioned as having a shorter curved blade, normal sized handle & scabbard
> FWIW some swords of this style have survived, but probably other ryu / people used similar tactics too


I've not seen this ninjato thing either!



kempodisciple said:


> If your goal is to compete, im seconding (fourthing?) The judo idea. And this is coming from someone with a kempo-jujitsu background. Theres just a better competitive field for judo


I forgot my town (actually next town but walking distance) also has kickboxing, so those 2 will be considered once I'm satisfied with my bujinkan basics not to slow down my progress


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## oldwarrior (Jun 12, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> I've not seen this ninjato thing either!
> 
> 
> I forgot my town (actually next town but walking distance) also has kickboxing, so those 2 will be considered once I'm satisfied with my bujinkan basics not to slow down my progress





Is your school teaching any sword??? 

The other poster and I were discussing a certain part of a debate that has been going on for quite some time and if you don't know about it then stay outta it lol....as it before your time and well I'd just leave it and concentrate on your system or any other you feel you wish to study


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## pdg (Jun 12, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Is your school teaching any sword???
> 
> The other poster and I were discussing a certain part of a debate that has been going on for quite some time and if you don't know about it then stay outta it lol....as it before your time and well I'd just leave it and concentrate on your system or any other you feel you wish to study



See that red bit next to @Ryan_ in the message header, that says [op]?

That means he started the thread (so no part of it is "before his time"), it's also kind of his to direct if he so chooses - it was partly your contribution that mildly took the thread off topic here.

Maybe do a bit of research about who is posting before telling them to keep out of it?


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## oldwarrior (Jun 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> See that red bit next to @Ryan_ in the message header, that says [op]?
> 
> That means he started the thread (so no part of it is "before his time"), it's also kind of his to direct if he so chooses - it was partly your contribution that mildly took the thread off topic here.
> 
> ...


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## pdg (Jun 12, 2018)

@oldwarrior this would be easier if you learned how the quote facility worked...

It's not about me being "high and mighty", it's about your lack of etiquette in taking over a thread and telling the OP to keep out of it because you've decided it's about something else.

Him saying "I haven't seen it either" isn't really debating one way or the other, and you specifically said it was between you and the other poster, which you don't get to decide either way I'm afraid.

Maybe you're used to everyone just going along with what you say, but you'll have to get used to people simply not caring about your opinion - welcome to the internet, it's a brave new world where you (or I) mean s.f.a.

I really thought you'd understand that bit a little more after your goodbye speech.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 12, 2018)

By your good graces and by tour leave sir I stand corrected ok ...not all of us are so internet savvy as you are


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> There is and always will be controversy surrounding Hatsumi


Eh, at this point most of the relevant facts are reasonably well established. What you make of them is up to you.

We know Hatsumi learned 9 arts from Takamatsu, was awarded soke status for those arts, and now teaches his interpretation of them.

We know that 3 of these arts are claimed to be "ninjutsu" systems.

We know that Hatsumi's current teaching includes not only the original kata and applications, but also new techniques based on his personal interpretation of the principles of those 9 arts.

We know that most of the 9 arts in question are not documented to exist before Takamatsu. At least 2 of them are known to be legitimate historical systems that Takamatsu was a qualified instructor in. Neither of these are ninjutsu systems.

We can only speculate as to the origin of the remaining Takamatsuden arts. We do know that their claimed history is at the very least exaggerated. Did Takamatsu create them out of whole cloth? Did he "reconstruct" them based on historical documents of other systems. Did he learn them from someone else who created them or exaggerated their history? Probably no one living today knows for sure, including Hatsumi.

We know that during the 80's Hatsumi leaned heavily on marketing his system as "ninjutsu", even though most of what was taught in the Bujinkan didn't even derive from the 3 supposed ninjutsu arts (whatever their provenance).

We know that over time he began to de-emphasize that aspect. "Ninjutsu" became "Ninpo Taijutsu" became "Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu" became "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu." Some Bujinkan teachers (especially in the West) still use the "ninjutsu" or "ninpo" branding, probably based on when they began their own study.

What's left for controversy?

There's the question of whether the Bujinkan arts are effective for their claimed purpose. Of course, people will argue for and against the effectiveness of every martial art in existence.

There's the godan ("sakki") test. I have my own opinion regarding that, but most people outside the Bujinkan either don't know or don't care enough to argue about that.

There's Hatusumi's approach to awarding ranks. I'm inclined to roll my eyes at this approach, but people in the Bujinkan have accepted it and it's not really relevant to folks outside the organization.

There's arguments to be made regarding Hatsumi's personal character and approach to teaching. I don't have the best impression of him, but I don't know him personally. Many people who know him and have trained with him for years do think highly of him. I'm not in a position to tell them they're wrong.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There's Hatusumi's approach to awarding ranks. I'm inclined to roll my eyes at this approach, but people in the Bujinkan have accepted it and it's not really relevant to folks outside the organization.



Doesn't that bring his ethics in do doubt? So that we really can't take his word as an expert on ninjitsu?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Doesn't that bring his ethics in do doubt? So that we really can't take his word as an expert on ninjitsu?


Regardless of our dislike of a lack of ethics, lack of ethics doesn't erase expertise in an area.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Regardless of our dislike of a lack of ethics, lack of ethics doesn't erase expertise in an area.




That is true


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Regardless of our dislike of a lack of ethics, lack of ethics doesn't erase expertise in an area.



Sort of. 

The point is regardless of what he was taught he could be handing down any old thing.

Chopper Reid for example was a legitimate gangster. An would in theory Be an expert in the Melbourne underworld.

Except he also liked to just make stuff up.


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## dunc (Jun 13, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Eh, at this point most of the relevant facts are reasonably well established. What you make of them is up to you.
> 
> We know Hatsumi learned 9 arts from Takamatsu, was awarded soke status for those arts, and now teaches his interpretation of them.
> 
> ...



In terms of tracing the lineage back: Sean Askew is doing a good job of researching this and is sharing his findings publicly on facebook etc

Whilst these kind of things are never black and white he’s pretty much found Takamatsu’s teacher and shown him to be a respected martial arts instructor from Iga (plus other interesting connections with the ninja side of things)


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## oldwarrior (Jun 13, 2018)

dunc said:


> In terms of tracing the lineage back: Sean Askew is doing a good job of researching this and is sharing his findings publicly on facebook etc
> 
> Whilst these kind of things are never black and white he’s pretty much found Takamatsu’s teacher and shown him to be a respected martial arts instructor from Iga (plus other interesting connections with the ninja side of things)




Are you talking about Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Sort of.
> 
> The point is regardless of what he was taught he could be handing down any old thing.
> 
> ...


That's a valid point. But then, even folks without known character flaws often make stuff up, misremember stuff, and change what they were taught. Of the three, the latter doesn't really bother me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 13, 2018)

dunc said:


> In terms of tracing the lineage back: Sean Askew is doing a good job of researching this and is sharing his findings publicly on facebook etc


Do you have some links?


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## dunc (Jun 13, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Are you talking about Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu ?



If you're interested in the history, then have a look at Sean's facebook pages here - Sean Askew

He's very open about his findings and sharing original sources, updating as he goes etc


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 13, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Doesn't that bring his ethics in do doubt? So that we really can't take his word as an expert on ninjitsu?



His approach to awarding ranks is bizarre (and IMO kind of pointless), but not necessarily a reflection of ethical issues. I have other reasons for having my doubts about his character, but since I don't have first hand knowledge of the man I will keep those to myself.



drop bear said:


> Sort of.
> 
> The point is regardless of what he was taught he could be handing down any old thing.
> 
> ...



We can already be pretty certain Hatsumi isn't passing down pure unchanged techniques from centuries ago. 

Takamatsu is known to have made changes to his branch of the two arts that we know are historically legit. Even if he didn't create the other seven arts himself, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't have put his own spin on those as well.

Additionally, we know that Hatsumi has put his own creative spin on "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu", showing new applications which were not in the original Takamtsuden curriculum.

I suppose that if he was sufficiently dishonest, you might suspect him of fudging the specific kata and applications that he says he learned directly from Takamatsu. I don't know what his motivation would be for doing so, though. We have a little bit of video footage of Takamatsu and it seems consistent with what Hatsumi has taught as the "traditional" elements of the Takamatsuden curriculum.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 13, 2018)

dunc said:


> If you're interested in the history, then have a look at Sean's facebook pages here - Sean Askew
> 
> He's very open about his findings and sharing original sources, updating as he goes etc


Interesting quote from Sean in the comments on one of his posts theorizing about Takamatsu's teacher:

_"but I would think of our lineage as a list of masters rather than Soke’s. Soke hinted to me strongly in our last conversation that the lineage is not to be taken literally and to think of it more as a code...."_


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## dunc (Jun 13, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting quote from Sean in the comments on one of his posts theorizing about Takamatsu's teacher:
> 
> _"but I would think of our lineage as a list of masters rather than Soke’s. Soke hinted to me strongly in our last conversation that the lineage is not to be taken literally and to think of it more as a code...."_



Yeah I think it’s probably more like this






And not so much like this


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## Chris Parker (Jun 16, 2018)

This... might not be short....



Ryan_ said:


> Hey, I am currently a 9th kyu student in Bujinkan Ninjutsu but I have also considered cross-training and was wondering if any of the members here have studied both and could tell me whether these styles compliment each others techniques?



Hi Ryan,

I'll come back to this with your more complete list of options, I just wanted to have your OP in full as a reference at the beginning of this post.



oldwarrior said:


> What I say may start a war of words but here goes
> 
> Ninjutsu oh dear your being conned I'm afraid as it is not what you thin or are being taught it is ...yes Ninja did exist but there are no un broken lineage schools ...no matter what they claim they are not authentic and definitely not is in any way what you are being taught.



Okay, before I get into the rest of this thread, something that hasn't been mentioned, but really should be, is that this forum has a very strict No Fraud-Busting rule... in other words, it doesn't matter what you personally think of a system, stating that it is fraudulent, a con, or anything similar is not permitted here. If you haven't received formal warning about this, I would keep it in mind.

That said, what precisely do you know about what Ryan is being taught? Or what is being claimed? You do realise that the vast majority of the Bujinkan are far more than aware of how little of the material is even related to claimed "ninjutsu" teachings, and that the majority is more "standard" budo, with it's origins in the teachings of Takamatsu Toshitsugu... to the point that the Bujinkan doesn't refer to it's teachings as "ninjutsu" at all these days... and have used the term "Budo Taijutsu" since the mid-90's? The simple fact is, though, that the earlier term "ninjutsu" is a simple way to differentiate themselves from other Japanese artforms, and has a more immediate recognition with potential students than the term "Budo Taijutsu", so is still seen and used as a form of "shorthand" for the organisation... particularly for people who have been around a while.



oldwarrior said:


> In answer to your question Train in an art that has lineage and is what it claims to be and can prove it (even modern systems ) don't waste your time with any so called Ninja school ...they are not real ...it may be fun but it not real ...what they are teaching is no secret art it is taken form other arts and if you do not believe me go look at the research and look at the scrolls and when the last one was actually written ...you might get a shock



This is in no way an answer to his question, and frankly is something you should be called on. Your perspective on what you think Ryan is being told is based in absolutely nothing he has said, and is your own hangup. I sincerely recommend you get over it.



oldwarrior said:


> Ok but you are being conned sir as what you are being taught is not what they are claiming ...they may be teaching you techniques etc but it is not ninjutsu lol...go look at the scrolls and in them I do not think that you will find any of your hand to hand stuff nor your sword stuff
> 
> What they are claiming is not what ninjutsu is ...



You don't know what he's being taught, or what is being claimed. Especially in the Bujinkan, you get guys who are very much into the fantasy, and you get guys who know what they're doing, and anywhere in-between. You are in no place to make any of the suggestions you are... and, again, fraud-busting... not done here.

Additionally, simply stating "look at the scrolls" is far too vague to have meaning... what scrolls? From where? Which schools? What are the scrolls about? What era are they from? How do you think "ninjutsu" is defined? By who? When?



oldwarrior said:


> Go and train with a good dojo that will teach you authentic tech ...There are many many on here that will teach you good sound skills that do have a lineage and can prove it ...what you are studying is not in any way what you think it is ...it is not Ko-ryu



Who said anything about koryu? And who says it's not what he thinks it is? He thinks it's a Bujinkan dojo... are you saying it's not? And who says his dojo is not a "good one" with "authentic technique"?



oldwarrior said:


> Sorry you misunderstood me ...I am not knocking you or your teacher



No, you're calling his teacher (and entire organisation) a fraud and a con. How was that misunderstood?



oldwarrior said:


> Shinobi no mono are pretty well documented in fact and there is no taijutsu  hence why I said what I did ....



Well, we could go down the whole "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" thing... we could revisit which scrolls you think are the only sources... or a range of other aspects... but the important thing is that you are applying one definition without looking at how it's changed in a number of ways... 



oldwarrior said:


> Yes your founder is a very gifted man in many ways and he is a very good Martial artist of that there is no doubt and yes I have seen his lineage many times and yup when I lived in Japan but it still is not ninjutsu ...if you do not believe me then and why should you ...go and ask a native Japanese that is a martial artist and they will tell you



Mind you, ask a native Japanese that is a martial artist about koryu, and be prepared to get a blank look... what I'm saying is that, outside of a much smaller community than many in the Bujinkan (particularly Westerners) want to realise, such arts just aren't that well known, or understood by the general populace of Japan either.. martial artist or no.



oldwarrior said:


> If you want a system then look at Daito-ryu or even Nihon Goshin Aikido they will serve you way better



I'm sorry, you're stating that the Bujinkan is a "con" because the lineage isn't verified in a number of the traditions taught there, but then you cite Daito Ryu?!? Who claim to go back to Minamoto Yoshitsune? Really? Nihon Goshin Aikido are very open about where their methods come from, and that they are modern (gendai), so that's not so much an issue... but Daito Ryu? Really? I mean, I love Daito Ryu... but you're really picking the wrong art to cite as a counter there... 



oldwarrior said:


> As for the Sword ...staff etc then there are a wide variety of schools that will teach you that some Ko-ryu and some gendai budo seriously they will serve you better and longer and have a wealth of depth that no ninjutsu or whatever it is called has or will ever have



Again, who said anything about sword or staff or anything similar?!?! From the request of this thread (cross training in Kempo Jujitsu), there's no indication at all that the weaponry side of the Bujinkan is even a factor here... and why would you suggest that the waza and methods of the Bujinkan are not going to teach sword or staff? Staff in particular the Bujinkan (and Hatsumi) are quite well known for... it's considered one of the great strengths, coming from the Kukishin Ryu (a school Takamatsu was a legitimate Shihan of before going off on his own path), to the point that a famous Shindo Muso Ryu practitioner, Quintin Chambers of Hawaii, collaborated with Hatsumi to produce a book on the short staff methods Hatsumi was teaching... apparently Chambers-sensei still brings out those techniques from time to time... his students call them "sensei's pain sticks"... ha!



Headhunter said:


> The op wasn't asking for your opinion on his style he was asking about cross training in another style



Damn straight!



oldwarrior said:


> my apologies ... I stand corrected
> 
> I was not knocking anyone at all I was merely stating that there is no such thing as taijutsu contained within ninjustsu my mistake



Again, the issue is that you are not defining things here at all.

To shorthand it for you, there are dominantly two ways that the term "ninjutsu" is applied... historically, it referred to the skills and application of espionage, spycraft, infiltration, and so forth, as well as being used to apply to methods employed by warriors largely located in the famous Iga and Kohka (Koga) regions of Japan. In a modern sense, it's used as an overarching term for a number of organisations that teach a variety of skills and schools (traditions), some of which are claimed to have some connection either geographically or historically to ninjutsu or related traditions.

Secondly, let's look at the term "Taijutsu". Essentially, it means "body skills". So you're saying there are no body skills in these infiltration and espionage traditions? You're saying the "scrolls" you reference don't contain any? I'm going to assume you're referring to things like the Bansenshukai, Ninpiden, Shoninki, yeah? None of those scrolls deal with combative applications, so if they represent the entirety of "ninjutsu" information, you may have a point... of course, each of them are focused on a certain aspect of the teachings of the schools they show... including the Ninpiden showing a range of tools and items used (including small concealed forms of weaponry...), but let's focus on Taijutsu as meaning combative unarmed methods.

Out of the 9 schools of the Bujinkan, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and Gikan Ryu are pretty much "bujutsu" systems (not "ninjutsu")... Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu are bujutsu traditions claimed to be from the Iga region of Japan (not "ninjutsu" per se, but "ninja-related" geographically, if you will), leaving Gyokushin Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, and Togakure Ryu. The first two of those have really been almost never seen or even mentioned... occasionally Hatsumi may say "this is with the feel of Kumogakure Ryu", or similar, but little to nothing formal is shown or taught... one belief is that neither of these "ninjutsu" schools actually have combative methods... they are purely 'ninjutsu" (espionage/infiltration). The last one is Togakure Ryu, which is where the whole idea of naming the entire Bujinkan after "Ninjutsu" comes from... 

Togakure Ryu claims 34 generations, and was the first school that Hatsumi was given the headmastership of... as a result, the early Bujinkan dojo (when it was the name of the building itself in the early 70's, before being applied to the organisation) was given the full title of "Bujinkan Dojo (teaching) Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu"... and that title was used to describe the teachings of the dojo, regardless of the system the particular methods came from. Later, the name was altered to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu to reflect the wider array of skills taught. 

But let's look at Togakure Ryu. Not sure if you know (it's not a particularly well known school even within the Bujinkan and other organisations), but Togakure Ryu is actually split into three scrolls... Ninpo Taijutsu, Ninja Biken, and Ninjutsu... with the biggest being the "ninjutsu" scroll. The other two are considered "supporting" methods for the ninjutsu side of things... to the point that the dominant context for the Taijutsu scroll is that you are discovered on an infiltration mission... most of the kata deal with escaping from guards and arrest attempts, rather than being engaging another warrior (as you get in, say, SFR, or Kukishin Ryu...). So, this "ninjutsu" school does have Taijutsu... it's just not what is most commonly seen... and is really quite a small portion of the school.



oldwarrior said:


> Ok conned may be the wrong word



Well...yeah.



oldwarrior said:


> But there is no direct anything in Ninjutsu there are the manuals and there are the claims but none of the claims stand up and there is and there never ever was any taijutsu in Ninjutsu no where in any of the scrolls will you find that



Again, you need to identify the scrolls you're referring to, and define ninjutsu (according to the application of the term).



oldwarrior said:


> sorry I just cringe when ninjutsu is stated as it is not what most seem to think it was ...and was is the word



Today, it's a name applied to identify the methods taught in the Bujinkan as an generic overarching term for ease of recognition... but even there, it's little applied within the Bujinkan itself, and is more used to have an immediate identified image for the public.



oldwarrior said:


> Guys that word was the wrong choice of word and that is my fault ...
> 
> I am in no way saying that the teacher is not teaching properly or that there is any fault with the op



Except you did say that. It's implied when you say that the OP should train somewhere "with a good dojo... with authentic techniques..." as opposed to where he is.



oldwarrior said:


> I was referring to the use of Ninjutsu that was my fault not to make that clearer. That was my mistake



No, you were referring to your perception of the use of the term ninjutsu.



oldwarrior said:


> That cool as I said what is being taught I do not know and as you say it could be quite effective and the teacher could and probably is very genuine.



This is true. You don't know what is being taught (both technically and in terms of identifying histories and so forth).



oldwarrior said:


> It was and is a marketing style and that grew from the Ninja boom era of the TV and Movies and it was and still is to some extent a money maker. It just always makes me cringe when I here that word and then anything tagged onto it.



Actually, no. The so-called "Ninja Boom" of the US was in the early-mid 80's... even through to the late 80's... and co-incided with Hayes coming back from Japan and opening schools for the first time... but much of that was just co-incidence... and Hayes' work, although benefitting from the "Boom", actually predated it... and may have helped drive it, rather than the other way around. That said, later joiners to the fold, as it were, certainly did take advantage of the popularity and interest in this less known approach to fudge the line between fantasy and the actual teachings of the school.



oldwarrior said:


> There is no doubt that Ninjutsu existed but as a Martial Art alone it really did not and it was most certainly not a hand to hand combat art ... Yes some of the "Ninja" were from more humble backgrounds but then some again were Samurai and Ninjutsu was taught in the schools that the Samurai studied in ...yes all be it only to a select few but it was not some mystical underground all defeating art and there was no taijutsu at all lol



Hmm... there are a number of things here that I'd seek clarification of exactly what you're meaning... for example "albeit to a select few" (uh... no... those that needed to know it were taught it... there was little "elite" about it in that regard), but I don't think they're important enough to get into now... and this is long enough as it is...



oldwarrior said:


> I am not going to get into a muck figh with you over the Bujinkan or Ninjutsu ok ...I'm not ill informed lol (blind without my glasses lol) Yes the word "conned" was strong and needed to be rephrased but apart from that all I said can stand up ...



No, I'd still say "ill-informed"... perhaps uninformed is better... you've clearly had some experience or exposure to the Bujinkan, and it wasn't what you were thinking or expecting... which is okay... and I'm not about to gloss over the lineage issues of a number of the schools contained there... but the fact is that much of your information has been lacking in a few ways... not least of which being unaware of what actually makes up the Bujinkan curriculum.



oldwarrior said:


> We all have our reasons for studying our Arts and they are all personal and it is a personal journey what we get out of them too ...
> 
> The question I would suggest you ask yourself is why if you are just starting in the organisation and discipline you are do you feel you want to cross train ...



This is a fair and good question.



oldwarrior said:


> Forget the muck fights on lineage or credibility etc ...



Of course, I do have to point out that all of the muck fightings on lineage and credibility in this thread have come from you... 

That said...



oldwarrior said:


> there has to be a reason that you feel so early on that you wish to cross train ...Only you can answer that question to yourself ...it does not matter what anyone else says (we all have and do have differing opinions and advice lol) ... All I would say and ask is why so early on ? ... Do you feel something is lacking in the system you are training in (no not knocking it at all just posing a uestion to ask himself) as so early on you are not going to see and get everything ... Patience may hold the key !!!??? Going to another system at the same time would it not more confuse as opposed to add to?
> 
> I know even to this day as I have started by adding another discipline the instructor is forever having to say to me wrong stance and youe moving on your balls (feet) you should be on your heels. What I am trying to say is it confusing to me lol (ok I'm thick and old lol) but if I had done that at the start it could and may well have totally thrown me and then I would have achieved little ...
> 
> ...



This I agree with.

I teach a Takamatsuden school... as well as two Koryu study groups (one Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and one Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu). Each of my guys in the study groups have other arts that they have done, or are doing... sometimes even with me. And I'm always giving opposing corrections based on the art we're doing at the time...  in HNIR, I have to tell one of my guys to turn his rear knee in... then, the next night at the Takamatsuden school, tell the same guy to turn his rear knee out... because they simply directly contradict each other... which is confusing to him to say the least!



drop bear said:


> Would this traditional Koryu art look anything at all like the black pyjamas training I would actually do should I walk in to a bujinkan dojo?



Yes, and no... depending on the school, as Tony said... but not just the X-Kan school.... each of the koryu schools will also have their own character as well... in a way, a 'typical" Bujinkan class can be closer to a koryu class than, say, a judo or BJJ class... in other ways, they're very different. But you'd really need to have some understanding of both to get any real idea.



oldwarrior said:


> All the Koryu have changed over time ...they have evolved to suit the times in which they are in /were in ...From the early years of the Tokugawa era (Edo period) they were not really needed as such and the Tokugawa for obvious reasons wanted the schools curbed to an extent ...I dont think I need to go into how they ran Japan and why it very well known. There were still shinobi-no-mono for sure but the numbers declined. From the time of the Meiji restoration onwards esp after the acts that basically "stopped" the Samurai class the shinobi-no-mono basically disappeared as well as they were no longer needed.



Well... no, I wouldn't agree with that... while koryu have developed and changed (both in the sense of individual schools, and in the sense of the "form" of koryu that came about), the idea that from the Edo jidai koryu (well... they weren't "ko" ryu at that point...) weren't really needed is a bit of a misinterpretation... probably the majority of koryu we have are from the Edo period... only a few predate it... typically those that predate the Edo period were sogobujutsu, with "specialist" systems being far more of an Edo-hallmark... including both weapon and jujutsu systems. In fact, it could be easily supported that koryu continued to develop, and even thrive into the Edo period.. with a greater sophistication being achieved due to the relative peace allowing for greater development. Additionally, the usage of "spies" (Metsuke, Ometsuke, and so on) by the new Tokugawa government was a well known feature... essentially, ninja/shinobi-no-mono. At this point their usage was even more apparent than in the preceding Sengokujidai. As far as them not being needed as Japan moved into the Meiji Restoration, yes... although there are cases known of such skills being used in the Manchurian campaign... and persons such as Seiko Fujita taught skills at the famous/infamous Nakano school (which was an Officer training school... including the teaching of spy craft...).



oldwarrior said:


> Was Takamatsu shinobi-no-mono that I think is open to debate ...was he a skilled MA yes probably however again some of his exploits are again very open to debate. Is Hatsumi shinobi-no-mono ...no he is not ...is he Takamatsu's successor yes but as to if he has carried on it as Koryu in the schools he teaches ...again very open to debate.



Hatsumi has never claimed to be shinobi-no-mono (in terms of actively engaging in spy craft), and Takamatsu is often referred to in the X-Kans as "the last ninja" for that reason. As far as Hatsumi carrying on Takamatsu's traditions as koryu... well, no. Personally, I don't think he wants to... or is interested in treating the schools as koryu. Of course, the idea of a koryu ninjutsu tradition (the same way there are bujutsu koryu traditions) is not really one that has been claimed either... at least in those terms.



oldwarrior said:


> There is no hand to hand combat in Ninjutsu (read the shinobi scrolls and I don't think you will find any !!!) ...Shinobi were on the most part Samurai (ok lower class) or Ashigaru they were not Hinin (ok some maybe fell into that after the reduction and then the collapse of the Samurai class) and there were I do not think any total Sinobi schools (not even at the time of the Iga and Koka ) Shinobi techniques were taught yes but as part of a Ryu not as a stand alone.



What "reduction... of the samurai class"? And the idea of "hinin" and so forth, as well as the old "oppressed peasants" trope were ideas pushed by people such as Stephen Turnbull, and later adopted by Steve Hayes (since at least partially recanted)... it is not one that is taken seriously by the Bujinkan, especially not today... 



oldwarrior said:


> I guess the Bunjinkan gave and still does in certain terms give of the impression that it is a Ninja school ... It is not and never was or will be.



Well, we covered that earlier... it is not the common term used in the Bujinkan, and, when it is/was, it was as a simple term to relate the teachings rather than listing everything found in the organisation.



oldwarrior said:


> As far as the black pj's lol well possibly they may have worn black (makes sense at night ) but if they were going in during daylight then they would have worn what they locals wore or whatever "army" they were infiltrating wore down even to the same style of embroidery and sword cords ...and all the rubbish about the mask is just that lol as in none of the scrolls is there any mention of that nor in any of the art work of the time that (I know of). You might think as it the iconic thing they might just have shown it or mentioned it in the scrolls lol!!!



And... you think this is news to any Bujinkan members? By the way, black is not really ideal at night either... just sayin'.... 



oldwarrior said:


> This is going to probably stir up muck but well I gonna say it anyway ... The Saaki test that Hatsumi did or does is well best described as what comes out of a bulls backside lol... I have no doubt that there are people who can sense things and preempt but his test is well as I said.



Say, did you know that Daito Ryu teaches defence against attacks from behind for the same reason? As does Katori Shinto Ryu? And quite a few others? 



oldwarrior said:


> The Bunjinkan was formed I think in the 80's and that should tell something in itself lol... and it it did ride on the coat tails of the movie ...and comic industries and vice versa ...do they teach things that work...that up to the individual to decide are some of the schools descended from Koryu ... yes and no
> 
> The Bunjinkan is what it is and no more ...but it will always stir up serious debate and conflict as to what it is



Well... the Bujinkan itself began as the name for Hatsumi's personal dojo (as an homage/reference to Takamatsu) in the early 70's... before that he was running a training/study group for Takamatsu, teaching what he had learnt from Takamatsu that week... later, it became the name for the organisation (essentially as Hatsumi started licensing Westerners to go and start their own dojo, allowing them to use the Bujinkan name). But the idea of belittling the Bujinkan because it happened to come up at a time when there was a lot of media focus and attention/hype is like saying that BJJ is riding on the UFC's coat-tails... or that Chinese martial arts rode on the coat-tails of Chinese cinema, exemplified by Bruce Lee... or that early Karate and Judo exposure to the West rode on the Militaries coat-tails as servicemen trained in these arts in Japan and Okinawa... 



oldwarrior said:


> Oh and may aswell add that the iconic ninja sword (ninjato) it don't exist in reality lol...that an invention ...they used swords and yep possibly if they were going indoors they would carry a shorter one lol... and it may or may not have had a square tsuba ... but that would have been for practical reasons as if anyone has been in a traditional japanese house ...it has low beams ...so weilding a full size katana ummm it might get stuck and that be a bit of a problem lol so they probably did use a shorter version , it has been suggested that they may even have used a sword like that fashioned out of a naginata blade ...but a ninjato as portrayed ummm no ...and surprise surprise none of them have been found lol...plenty of that era of katana etc but no ninjato lol .............!!!!!!!!!



And, again, do you think that anyone in the Bujinkan thinks such a sword was genuinely used? There are no kata teaching them, it doesn't appear in any of the material... so, uh... kay? Oh, and you're arguing that there isn't any combative methods because ninjutsu is spying... but they used swords? Kay... 

What I'm saying is what is done in a Takamatsuden school is not what is seen in the movies... so using them to discredit the schools is, well, disingenuous to say the least.



oldwarrior said:


> the first appearance of the "ninjato" was actually in a comic lol...I forget the one but it was from the 50's I think (I stand to be corrected on that) ...Stephen Hayes took a lot of heat on what you refer to and that was due in part to guess who lol... he really took alot of very unfair heat on that as he did not invent it etc ...that was done in Japan lol



Actually, the earliest cited usage was in a movie in the 50's... not a comic... Stephen Hayes apparently saw one in a shop, and used it to teach his methods... there wasn't any real basis in what he got from Hatsumi, and no supporting evidence that Hatsumi ever taught that it existed. 



oldwarrior said:


> No buddy he didn't get it from there lol ....I'm not going to go into it big time but he took alot of heat for that and it genuinely wasn't his fault ...



Covered above.



oldwarrior said:


> There is and always will be controversy surrounding Hatsumi ...just bear in mind the way the Japanese do things ...By that I mean it is face and that should more or less say it all ....no one in Japan will publicly say much as it loses face and as Hatsumi has been honoured then if they do then they lose face ...it is enough to know that he knows that they know and if that don't make sense then ...well you don't get how things work there lol....(and that is not a personal slur on you  btw)



Yeah... I'd advise less assumption on what is known and not known about the culture of our arts... 



dunc said:


> I'd genuinely be interested to know how how the straight ninja sword thing came around



Don's got a decent blog on it, Dunc... he's a bit biased in a number of things, but it's probably one of the more correct (timeline wise) that you'll come across.



dunc said:


> As someone who's been kicking around the buj for many years with good connections in Japan (& some understanding of how things work there culturally) my conclusion is that it was most probably a misunderstanding stemming from the discussion of the broader evolution of swords in Japan
> 
> I have only ever seen the Togakure Ryu sword being positioned as having a shorter curved blade, normal sized handle & scabbard
> FWIW some swords of this style have survived, but probably other ryu / people used similar tactics too



Yep.



oldwarrior said:


> Is your school teaching any sword???



What?!? All Ryan said was that he'd never seen this mysterious straight sword... as covered, Bujinkan schools don't teach straight single edged "ninjato" swords... typically they simply use a fairly standard bokuto... as the majority of the sword work is done using a "regular" sword... such as for Kukishin Ryu material... 



oldwarrior said:


> The other poster and I were discussing a certain part of a debate that has been going on for quite some time and if you don't know about it then stay outta it lol....as it before your time and well I'd just leave it and concentrate on your system or any other you feel you wish to study



He just said he'd heard nothing about a "ninjato" in his school. 



oldwarrior said:


> Ok if he wants to debate it then no worries ...
> 
> As in time I was meaning that happened around 3 years ago
> 
> so don't get all high and mighty ok



Three years ago? And you think he's coming late to the party? Hmm.... 

Hi again, Ryan, sorry about the delay there... 



Ryan_ said:


> The only things close (and i'm being generous here) for me are:
> Judo



I'd probably say that this is the best bet... although it should be noted that it's said that when Takamatsu first saw Judo, he was rather critical of the methods used to throw (by bending the back)... that said, it's a Japanese, close-quarters grappling system based on throwing which will give valuable insight into application of such methods against both resistance and movement. It's a good way to understand the way a lot of the Takamatsuden methods are meant to work... especially, if you get to experience it, Shinden Fudo Ryu (Ju)Taijutsu... 



Ryan_ said:


> kenpo jujitsu



Kempo-jujitsu is a modern, Western hybrid of modern Western hybrid arts (Western takes on karate/kempo/chuan-fa, popularised by Ed Parker, and Western "jujitsu", basically basic judo with some more emphasis on lock flows and ground work). Despite the name, there is little similarity with Japanese arts.



Ryan_ said:


> ninjutsu



Well, you already know this one, as it's the one you're already training in... but your idea to wait until you've gotten a better grasp of it is one I'd agree with.



Ryan_ said:


> Kuk Sool won



Kuk Sool Won is a modern Korean system, ostensibly based on karate/TKD, but with a range of other methods and arts tacked on. It's a bit tacked together for my tastes, with little in the way of coherent basis and continuity to my eyes.

At the end of the day, though, the most important thing is that it will need to be a school you can attend (time-wise, financially, etc), and that you enjoy... and only you know that.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 16, 2018)

the voice of the Koryu ...keep going just keep going I am getting a good laugh ...

push all the credentials you want in my face and quote all you like like I gave my opinion you gave yours you want to continue this then lets do it in private


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## Headhunter (Jun 16, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> the voice of the Koryu ...keep going just keep going I am getting a good laugh ...
> 
> push all the credentials you want in my face and quote all you like like I gave my opinion you gave yours you want to continue this then lets do it in private


Lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2018)

Chris Parker said:


> This... might not be short....


We're surprised. 

I was wondering when this would catch your eyes - been waiting to see your take on what was posted here.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 16, 2018)

Chris Parker said:


> This... might not be short....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good to see you Chris.  You should swing by more often.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 16, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> We're surprised.
> 
> I was wondering when this would catch your eyes - been waiting to see your take on what was posted here.


I was half tempted to tag him just to hurry that along.


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## Ryan_ (Jun 16, 2018)

Chris Parker said:


> This... might not be short...


Well, novels aren't usually short.

in all seriousness though, that was an enjoyable read and for the questions, it would seem you would have already read my answers.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 17, 2018)

You ask what was said in private ok ...might not be so clear cut then 

Also this blew up because I would not agree with him on swords ...no surprise there as most Ko-ryu get their hakama in a tight knot when anyone dares do that... 

And the 3 was a typo lol...

all because I will not bow to and will not give up my credentials ....yup I have them ...do I need them nope as I have never nor will ever teach 

I will stand by what I said and if he don't like then tough ...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> You ask what was said in private ok ...might not be so clear cut then
> 
> Also this blew up because I would not agree with him on swords ...no surprise there as most Ko-ryu get their hakama in a tight knot when anyone dares do that...
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what any of those sentences pertain to, OW. It'll help others keep up if you quote portions of posts with your responses.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> We're surprised.
> 
> I was wondering when this would catch your eyes - been waiting to see your take on what was posted here.



Oh, I'm around... even if I'm not "here", I'm "here"... ha!



Flying Crane said:


> Good to see you Chris.  You should swing by more often.



What can I say, Michael? Life, neh?



Ryan_ said:


> Well, novels aren't usually short.
> 
> in all seriousness though, that was an enjoyable read and for the questions, it would seem you would have already read my answers.



Glad you got something out of it. Any questions you have, please feel free to ask.



oldwarrior said:


> the voice of the Koryu ...keep going just keep going I am getting a good laugh ...
> 
> push all the credentials you want in my face and quote all you like like I gave my opinion you gave yours you want to continue this then lets do it in private



Huh? I'm not "the voice of the koryu"... in fact, the only person who brought up koryu was you... as well as bringing up sword... staff... "ninjato"... and a whole host of other things that weren't a part of the discussion, but you decided you needed to bring up anyway... additionally, I pushed no "credentials" at all... and, while I get your opinion, I would (unlike Dunc) state that it is "ill-informed", so provided a counter voice to your honestly ill-spirited and borderline rule-breaking "opinions".



oldwarrior said:


> You ask what was said in private ok ...might not be so clear cut then



What?!? Who asked for anything? The only response to you since your little "blow off" of myself was Headhunter... whose entire response to your post was "lol"... 



oldwarrior said:


> Also this blew up because I would not agree with him on swords ...no surprise there as most Ko-ryu get their hakama in a tight knot when anyone dares do that...



Again, you are the only person who brought up koryu in this thread... I answered it and countered it... but the sword conversation is a DIFFERENT THREAD. Not this one. So no, it's not because you "would not agree with me on swords"... it's because your posts, I felt, required countering.



oldwarrior said:


> And the 3 was a typo lol...



Okay... and we knew that how? What was it meant to be?



oldwarrior said:


> all because I will not bow to and will not give up my credentials ....yup I have them ...do I need them nope as I have never nor will ever teach



Dude, it has nothing to do with "credentials", or teaching, or anything else... you have your profile locked to basically unreadable... there is little information you've given on your background, and what you have indicated has raised questions... so I wanted to get an idea of where you're coming from... I don't care if your entire martial experience is you once walked past Seven Samurai on a video store shelf... but having an idea of what your background is makes the conversation easier... so perhaps if you don't get so precious about things, you'll find you don't make "serious enemies" causing you to want to delete your account all the time... (even when I'm not "here", I'm "here"...).



oldwarrior said:


> I will stand by what I said and if he don't like then tough ...



It really has nothing to do with my liking it or not... if you post something that I feel is incorrect, misleading, mistaken, or misrepresentative, I will comment and offer a contrary viewpoint. You don't like that? Deal with it. It's what forums are for.


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## Steve (Jul 31, 2018)

Neat.


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