# Cross Ranking....In A System You Never Trained In.



## MJS (Nov 10, 2008)

So, what are your thoughts on that?  Someone has a rank, doesn't matter if its a low rank or high rank, in an art, that they have not trained in.  Something thats honorary?  Perhaps, but why would someone want to accept something that they have no prior background in?

Looking for everyones thoughts on this.


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## ackks10 (Nov 10, 2008)

MJS said:


> So, what are your thoughts on that?  Someone has a rank, doesn't matter if its a low rank or high rank, in an art, that they have not trained in.  Something thats honorary?  Perhaps, but why would someone want to accept something that they have no prior background in?
> 
> Looking for everyones thoughts on this.




 honorary?,,well mike that's where some peoples heads are,i once had this man come into my school, and after class was done he came up to me and asked if can talk with me in my office, so we did and i though he wanted to know about kenpo, but he said (oh he was bout 65) that  the people that lived over him always bothers him, and that he had to go and talk with them about the noise, he said that one day the man got really upset with him and said that they were going to get him, i told him to call the police, he said he can't because his wife is scared,i said what do you want from me???he said (you guessed it)if i had a cert, from you saying that i was a BB, i would show it to him and that might help me, well anyway i could not help him, but that came to mind,


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## geezer (Nov 10, 2008)

MJS said:


> So, what are your thoughts on that? Someone has a rank, doesn't matter if its a low rank or high rank, in an art, that they have not trained in. Something thats honorary? Perhaps, but why would someone want to accept something that they have no prior background in?
> 
> Looking for everyones thoughts on this.


 
Cross-ranking?!? Never heard of it. Doesn't make much sense either. Now, instead of a certificate of "rank", how about selling them a T-shirt. When I go to sombody's seminar, if I like what they teach, I say forget the "participation" certificate. Get me a cool T-shirt with your logo. Besides, ever try to wear a certificate?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 12, 2008)

I know guys who get honorary cross-ranks in stuff all the time. One kenpoist I know is wicked with joint destructions. After a seminar weekend to a bunch of jujutsuka, they gave him an honorary 9th in jujutsu. He doesn't claim to be a 9th, and nobody's gonna knock on his door for system successorship when the soke of that lineage kicks the bucket. But they were impressed enough with his logic and ability, that they chose to honor him with the highest compliment they could conjure.

Is that what you're referring to?


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## Carol (Nov 12, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I know guys who get honorary cross-ranks in stuff all the time. One kenpoist I know is wicked with joint destructions. After a seminar weekend to a bunch of jujutsuka, they gave him an honorary 9th in jujutsu. He doesn't claim to be a 9th, and nobody's gonna knock on his door for system successorship when the soke of that lineage kicks the bucket. But they were impressed enough with his logic and ability, that *they chose to honor him* with the highest compliment they could conjure.
> 
> Is that what you're referring to?




Honor is really what its all about, yes?  

The meaning gets lost if one automatically substitutes "honorary" with "unearned"

The kenpoist showed honor to the jujitsu system (as a structure)  with his skills.  The soke showed honor to the kenpoist with the rank. 

The kenpoist showed honor to the jujitsuka by not letting it go to his head. 

The jujitsuka showed honor to the kenpoists by (presumably) not throwing a fit over the compliment.


There are undoubtedl honorary ranks that aren't that smooth or that clean, but I think the underlying intention is that of honor and not disrespect.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 12, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Honor is really what its all about, yes?
> 
> The meaning gets lost if one automatically substitutes "honorary" with "unearned"
> 
> ...


 
Missed you.


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## Carol (Nov 12, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Missed you.



Missed you too.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 12, 2008)

I am not for honorary ranks at all and will never issue any in IRT. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   Nor do I expect or want any from anyone else. 



Carol it is good to see you again!


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## Carol (Nov 12, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I am not for honorary ranks at all and will never issue any in IRT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very good to see you too Brian.  Its good to be back home.


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## Kenpo17 (Sep 5, 2009)

As it is said, once you earn your belt rank you never loose it, this also includes in other arts in which you have never studied before.  Even though you hold a higher rank for example lets say you are a purple belt in Kenpo and you start learning Taekwondo, you start learning taekwondo as a purple belt but you are really learning the white belt curriculum in that art.


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## just2kicku (Sep 5, 2009)

Kenpo17 said:


> As it is said, once you earn your belt rank you never loose it, this also includes in other arts in which you have never studied before.  Even though you hold a higher rank for example lets say you are a purple belt in Kenpo and you start learning Taekwondo, you start learning taekwondo as a purple belt but you are really learning the white belt curriculum in that art.



What? I came back to Kaju a brown belt in Tae kwon do and started right back at the begining....a white belt. I do not agree with cross ranking or "honorary" ranking.

I put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into my art, and if someone came in and got a BB just cause they were a black in an other art I feel would be a slap in my face. They may have put the same effort into their art, but not in my art and vice versa. 

I say you start a new art, you start at the beginning. Including wearing a white belt.


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 5, 2009)

Over the years, I've had a handful of instructors attend one of our seminars and expect to receive rank at the end of the day.  I'm not talking about a certificate of participation but a black belt for 6 to 12 hours of training.  Invariably, these are the guys with Nascar dogi and who offer everything but Tibetan Yak Wrestling at their schools.  I've kept the business card of one of these jokers.  He "taught" BJJ, Karate, Muay Thai, Combat Aikido, Savate, Cane Master, TKD and Krav Maga.  I would have been more impressed if he had been able to execute one decent technique during the entire weekend he was on my mat.

I've never understood the desire to collect paper.  After all, without the knowledge and ability that should accompany it, certificates are nothing but a waste of trees.


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## Danjo (Sep 6, 2009)

Cross-ranking is a search for legitimacy that not only doesn't work, it makes both the recipient and the giver illegitimate once they get caught doing it. No one will ever take the recipient seriously again, nor will they take the rank issued by the giver serious again either (even if there are some that actually earned it from him).


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## still learning (Sep 6, 2009)

Hello, Kinda like a jack of all trades...yet Master of NONE!

background:.
Master of dishwasher
Master of carpet cleaning
Master of Mopping
Master of Broom
Master window cleaner
Master laundry and dryer

Have belts in all the systems listed.....giving by the wife! (former PRO)..

Aloha,  ...still learning the vacumn...two more years


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## girlbug2 (Sep 6, 2009)

I would guess in many cases it's honorary. However one other possibility comes to mind. Let's say somebody is a BB in one style, who then decides to start training another style. He's not drawing from an empty well so to speak--a lot of those skills and moves may translate. For certain, the principles behind the styles will translate. Maybe he's also a natural, a prodigy. Anyway, he may humbly start out as a white belt in the new system, but when he's sparring he beats the pants off of students of a much higher rank than himself. It would be _downright embarrassing_ for any dojo to have a white belt cleaning the clocks of their green and brown belts...so he is promoted quickly to brown belt. It's a matter of the school's saving face.


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## Stonecold (Sep 6, 2009)

Do you realy want to wear a rank you have not earned. Some people are all about the belt ect... what about skill, knowledge, ability in that art.


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## Danjo (Sep 6, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> I would guess in many cases it's honorary. However one other possibility comes to mind. Let's say somebody is a BB in one style, who then decides to start training another style. He's not drawing from an empty well so to speak--a lot of those skills and moves may translate. For certain, the principles behind the styles will translate. Maybe he's also a natural, a prodigy. Anyway, he may humbly start out as a white belt in the new system, but when he's sparring he beats the pants off of students of a much higher rank than himself. It would be _downright embarrassing_ for any dojo to have a white belt cleaning the clocks of their green and brown belts...so he is promoted quickly to brown belt. It's a matter of the school's saving face.


 
Clearly someone of previous experience in an art that has a lot of cross over material (blocks, strikes, kicks etc.) will move up more quickly than one who is starting from the beginning. They may test far more quickly for their back belt than the average beginner. However, that's not the same as cross-ranking if he is actually testing and has the material.

The way it's done at our school, is an adult brown belt or black belt from another style wears their belt and school/style patch from their previous art on their gi until they have the time and material to _test_ for that rank in Kajukenbo. They do not get to take off their school/style patch until they have _tested_. This way, everyone knows they are not a beginner in the _martial arts_, but no one mistakes them for a _Kaju_ black or brown belt either.

Frankly, very few stick with it long enough to reach black belt in Kajukenbo, even doing it this way.


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## MJS (Sep 6, 2009)

Kenpo17 said:


> As it is said, once you earn your belt rank you never loose it, this also includes in other arts in which you have never studied before. Even though you hold a higher rank for example lets say you are a purple belt in Kenpo and you start learning Taekwondo, you start learning taekwondo as a purple belt but you are really learning the white belt curriculum in that art.


 
Ummm...maybe I'm not following you here.  If I'm reading right, your logic is....I'm a 3rd degree in Kenpo, yet if I went to a BJJ school, I'm learning as a 3rd degree?  No, nobody can take my rank away from me.  I busted my *** for it, its mine until the day I die.  However, if I go to another school, I'm starting from ground zero.  Sure, the inst. will most likely acknowledge your rank from the other art, but frankly, I wouldn't want to wear the same rank, especially if I'm doing another art.  If I were to start taking TKD, I'm wearing a white belt, not my Kenpo BB.

I switched from the Parker system to the Tracy system.  Yes, I still wore my 3rd degree.  Its still a Kenpo system, and many of the techs and katas a very close.  My teacher told me to wear my belt, so I did.  I didn't strut around though, as if I was a 3rd in that school.  Once I completed the material that that school taught, I tested for a BB in that system in that school.  

Of course, the purpose of this thread was to discuss being awarded rank in an art that you've never trained in.  For example...I move to California and go to a Kajukenbo school.  The inst. at that school, knowing that I have a MA background, but not a Kaju background, hands me a 3rd degree BB in Kaju, complete with diploma.  I call BS on that one.  Why?  Why the hell would I want to wear a belt that I didn't earn????  IMO, only someone with bad intent does something like that.  

If you want to recognize someones acomplishments in the arts, and give them some honorary thing, thats fine, but that person should NOT under any circumstances, lead people to believe that they put in any blood, sweat and tears, into that belt.  Doing so, would give a false impression.


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## just2kicku (Sep 6, 2009)

MJS said:


> Ummm...maybe I'm not following you here. If I'm reading right, your logic is....I'm a 3rd degree in Kenpo, yet if I went to a BJJ school, I'm learning as a 3rd degree? No, nobody can take my rank away from me. I busted my *** for it, its mine until the day I die. However, if I go to another school, I'm starting from ground zero. Sure, the inst. will most likely acknowledge your rank from the other art, but frankly, I wouldn't want to wear the same rank, especially if I'm doing another art. If I were to start taking TKD, I'm wearing a white belt, not my Kenpo BB.
> 
> I switched from the Parker system to the Tracy system. Yes, I still wore my 3rd degree. Its still a Kenpo system, and many of the techs and katas a very close. My teacher told me to wear my belt, so I did. I didn't strut around though, as if I was a 3rd in that school. Once I completed the material that that school taught, I tested for a BB in that system in that school.
> 
> ...


 
Well stated, 100% concurrence from me.

I kinda read that also, in a way he's right, your rank will never be taken away, IN THAT SYSTEM. In another system I think you start at the beginning. I did it, Twin Fist is doing it, Danjo did it, and Searcher is doing it.

Although you would probably advance faster then someone coming off the street, you should still start at the beginning. 

I think this is where these guys that are 35 years old, have MA resumes that are a mile long and would take twelve lifetimes to get. I personally would not want to train under someone like that.


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## mwd0818 (Sep 7, 2009)

I think there are three types of cross ranking:

1) Honorary rank - as a thank you.
I think this was more appropriate in earlier times (when rank was tested and earned for more often) and when people really worked as complete martial artists and there were fewer masters around.
*Example*
Another master (say from Jiu-Jitsu), comes to my seminar that I'm giving on Advanced Kenpo Self-Defense Fighting Theories.  We meet, talk, and he brings a boatload of students to the next seminar because he enjoys the striking part so much.  I love it because he's bringing my more people and helping exposure.  We talk, maybe train together and share ideas, and as a parting gift, we award each other honorary Black Belts in each other's arts in gratitude for service and dedication.

I'm good with this - as long as it is disclosed as such.  One important thing here . . . it's not a promotion for either of us.  We would both be advanced dans (5th+) and we just awarded each other a 1st Degree.  Why?  As a thank you.  We might mention it, but neither would claim to teach the other art, and we both (as mentioned earlier) would simply respect it.

2) Equivalency Cross-Ranking
There are plenty of really similar arts around.  A lot of Japanese Karates, Hawaiian-based Kenpo/Kempos, Jiu-Jitsus, etc.  You walk into my school, demonstrate techniques and I think, "You are a Shodan . . . you don't know my forms yet, but that's irrelevant.  You're skill is what I would put at this level, therefore, welcome."  You don't know my forms yet, but if that's not the main thrust of the school - then that's alright.  I think about Judo ranking where your rank is a direct reflection on your competitive abilities.  You might walk in off the street, beat a black belt and receive your Shodan.  If that's the structure of your system, that's fine - it's earned.

3) Historical/Ancestor Cross-Ranking
Similar to the above, but if your art derived from arts X, Y and Z, and you master style A, then there is something to be said about saying you have a certain level of proficiency in arts X, Y and Z - maybe not the same, but some.  I'm ok if an ancestor art recognizes you at a certain rank because of it.

I may have missed other legitimate examples, but these are about all that I can see as being legitimate cross ranks, and really, all of them go against the original post - an art that you have NEVER trained in.  All of these imply SOME level of training, or direct equivalency.  The only one I can think of is if I want to award Obama a Shodan for being President of the US.  Honorary, and just like doctoral degrees that get handed out at Universities.  Then again, few presidents go around listing there Ph.Ds:

Harvard
Yale
Notre Dame
Arizona State
UC-Davis
UT
Florida State
Michigan
Michigan State
Flint Community College
Greater Allegheny College of Nursing
ITT Tech
Podunk Techincal School for Welding

Ah - just found the problem with cross-ranking . . . Obama will start teaching welding and nursing at the same school...


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## Danjo (Sep 7, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> I think there are three types of cross ranking:
> 
> 1) Honorary rank - as a thank you.
> I think this was more appropriate in earlier times (when rank was tested and earned for more often) and when people really worked as complete martial artists and there were fewer masters around.
> ...


 
I don't really like this one. To me, if something is honorary, then it should only be in certain very narrow cases. I remember when they gave Sean Connery a black belt in Karate because of his movie You Only Live Twice, where James Bond was doing training in the movie and used a lot of Karateka in it. It was ceremonial and no one ever would be in danger of believing that Connery earned his black belt from them. To me, unless there is a big public ceremony hyping the honorary status of the belt awarded, then it shouldn't be done.

For the sort of thing that you mention above, I think a certificate of appreciation is sufficient.




mwd0818 said:


> 2) Equivalency Cross-Ranking
> There are plenty of really similar arts around. A lot of Japanese Karates, Hawaiian-based Kenpo/Kempos, Jiu-Jitsus, etc. You walk into my school, demonstrate techniques and I think, "You are a Shodan . . . you don't know my forms yet, but that's irrelevant. You're skill is what I would put at this level, therefore, welcome." You don't know my forms yet, but if that's not the main thrust of the school - then that's alright. I think about Judo ranking where your rank is a direct reflection on your competitive abilities. You might walk in off the street, beat a black belt and receive your Shodan. If that's the structure of your system, that's fine - it's earned.


 
This one is totally bogus IMO. If the forms aren't the same etc., then it's not the same art and there should be no cross-ranking.



mwd0818 said:


> 3) Historical/Ancestor Cross-Ranking
> Similar to the above, but if your art derived from arts X, Y and Z, and you master style A, then there is something to be said about saying you have a certain level of proficiency in arts X, Y and Z - maybe not the same, but some. I'm ok if an ancestor art recognizes you at a certain rank because of it.


 
Maybe in the old days, but now there should be plenty of legitimate black belts to train under in a given art so that you would not need to be cross-ranked by someone from a parent art. When Adriano Emperado gave Ed Parker an 8th degree, it was just a show of solidarity between Chow's first black belt (Emperado) and one of Chow's later black belts (Parker). Parker didn't really need the rank from Emperado, and was in fact heading up his own system by that time. But again, it was a public show of support, and there was no mistaking what it was about.


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## just2kicku (Sep 7, 2009)

> 1) Honorary rank - as a thank you.
> I think this was more appropriate in earlier times (when rank was tested and earned for more often) and when people really worked as complete martial artists and there were fewer masters around.
> *Example*
> Another master (say from Jiu-Jitsu), comes to my seminar that I'm giving on Advanced Kenpo Self-Defense Fighting Theories. We meet, talk, and he brings a boatload of students to the next seminar because he enjoys the striking part so much. I love it because he's bringing my more people and helping exposure. We talk, maybe train together and share ideas, and as a parting gift, we award each other honorary Black Belts in each other's arts in gratitude for service and dedication.


 
Nope, gotta disagree. You want to say thanks, give em a t- shirt from the seminar and take him to lunch. I think that thank you BB is a crock.





> 2) Equivalency Cross-Ranking
> There are plenty of really similar arts around. A lot of Japanese Karates, Hawaiian-based Kenpo/Kempos, Jiu-Jitsus, etc. You walk into my school, demonstrate techniques and I think, "You are a Shodan . . . you don't know my forms yet, but that's irrelevant. You're skill is what I would put at this level, therefore, welcome." You don't know my forms yet, but if that's not the main thrust of the school - then that's alright. I think about Judo ranking where your rank is a direct reflection on your competitive abilities. You might walk in off the street, beat a black belt and receive your Shodan. If that's the structure of your system, that's fine - it's earned.


 
Same system OK, but when someone, who comes in to learn Your art they shouldn't be ranked by you until they learn YOUR system 




> 3) Historical/Ancestor Cross-Ranking
> Similar to the above, but if your art derived from arts X, Y and Z, and you master style A, then there is something to be said about saying you have a certain level of proficiency in arts X, Y and Z - maybe not the same, but some. I'm ok if an ancestor art recognizes you at a certain rank because of it.


 
Don't agree with this one either, But, what it all boils down to with all of these is that these things happen. And there's really nothing you can do to stop it. It's this crossranking BS that gives the fakes a mastership from everything from karate to underwater basket weaving.


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## MJS (Sep 7, 2009)

Danjo said:


> I don't really like this one. To me, if something is honorary, then it should only be in certain very narrow cases. I remember when they gave Sean Connery a black belt in Karate because of his movie You Only Live Twice, where James Bond was doing training in the movie and used a lot of Karateka in it. It was ceremonial and no one ever would be in danger of believing that Connery earned his black belt from them. To me, unless there is a big public ceremony hyping the honorary status of the belt awarded, then it shouldn't be done.
> 
> For the sort of thing that you mention above, I think a certificate of appreciation is sufficient.
> 
> ...


 


just2kicku said:


> Nope, gotta disagree. You want to say thanks, give em a t- shirt from the seminar and take him to lunch. I think that thank you BB is a crock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'm with both of you on this.  My thoughts exactly!


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## mwd0818 (Sep 7, 2009)

First, let me just say my earlier post wasn't necessarily an endorsement of those types of cross-ranks, but at least a recognition of some legitimacy to them.



Danjo said:


> I don't really like this one. To me, if something is honorary, then it should only be in certain very narrow cases. I remember when they gave Sean Connery a black belt in Karate because of his movie You Only Live Twice, where James Bond was doing training in the movie and used a lot of Karateka in it. It was ceremonial and no one ever would be in danger of believing that Connery earned his black belt from them. To me, unless there is a big public ceremony hyping the honorary status of the belt awarded, then it shouldn't be done.
> 
> For the sort of thing that you mention above, I think a certificate of appreciation is sufficient.


 
I agree that a certificate would be more applicable than an honorary rank.  I mentioned that I saw it more as something earlier in a tight community, but I definitely agree that it would be in a public forum.  I think there are important factors in it.  One, it would be in a large setting.  Two, it would be a rank that is NOT a promotion.  I decide to launch a big tournament and Rickson Gracie comes to help me secure a grappling division.  He endorses it, it becomes the largest Striking/Grappling tournament this side of the Pecos.  In a ceremony, as a thank you for his contribution and in recognition of his skills, I present him an honorary Shodan before the Black Belt Fighting Championship.  Sure - I'm ok with that.  Not a big fan of it, but I can see it happening.




Danjo said:


> This one is totally bogus IMO. If the forms aren't the same etc., then it's not the same art and there should be no cross-ranking.


 
About my second point in being of equivalent ability.  I actually think this is the most legitimate form *IF* your ranking is based on competitive abilities (fighting skills) and not forms and techniques necessarily.  Arts like judo that have this I can agree with.  If I walk in a flip your best Black Belt on his butt even if I have an unorthodox style, I can see someone awarding it even though I don't know the names of your techniques and forms.  This, again, I can only see if that's the way you test and promote.  If you require knowledge of forms and techniques and don't put fighting ability at the top of the requirements, then this is bogus.  But if you are competing in the environment of the style (say Judo), and can win in the confines of those rules using a different variety of training, then I'd say you have earned it.  Again, it would still be "'honorary" in that I wouldn't think you can teach my art, but you've obviously proved your worthiness in it.



Danjo said:


> Maybe in the old days, but now there should be plenty of legitimate black belts to train under in a given art so that you would not need to be cross-ranked by someone from a parent art. When Adriano Emperado gave Ed Parker an 8th degree, it was just a show of solidarity between Chow's first black belt (Emperado) and one of Chow's later black belts (Parker). Parker didn't really need the rank from Emperado, and was in fact heading up his own system by that time. But again, it was a public show of support, and there was no mistaking what it was about.



I think the biggest part of the cross-ranking though is the HONORARY part of it.  If I don't NEED rank from you, but you give it to me as an honor, and everyone knows it as such, then sure.  The problem is when you give me a rank, I claim it and start presenting as an EARNED rank.  If I'm a 5th or 8th or 10th (legitimate) and you give me an honorary Shodan for services to the arts that you've benefitted from, then whatever.  Would a certificate of appreciation be more appropriate?  Probably.  Personally, I'd rather you give me an engraved katana . . . those are great tokens.  But if all you have is an old Black Belt that you want to say thank you with . . . ok . . . 

Additionally, if you doing it for "solidarity" (Emperado to Parker based on Chow lineage) then great.  Again, it all comes back to the point:

It's an honor and to be treated as such.

The only exception is in a pure sport art in which your skills exceed the norm of the sport and rank is defined by ability in that sport.

I will also admit that the my third point about styles used to form the art is rare if ever possible to be legitimate unless you are leaving the ancestor arts relatively unchanged.


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## Milt G. (Sep 7, 2009)

Hello,
I see "cross ranking" as a political tool as well.  A back scratching kind of thing.

While I do not, generally, agree with cross ranking, I do feel that if the arts are VERY similar, or very closely related, that THE QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR may make an appointment of ranking to another.  It is generally not made at the same level, but a portion of past training and knowledge is considered.  When you allow one to wear a certain level belt in your school, you ARE recognizing some skill and ability.  Sometimes that is all that cross ranking is.  I like the way Mr. Weston's group does it.  

This thing, as previously stated, happens all of the time.  While there is some misuse, as in anything, most of what I have seen I would consider appropriate.  

In actuality...  Who really cares.  The burden of rank rests on the recipient and the appointing authority.  Frauds and "under achievers" are quickly identified and acknowledged.  Most practitioners with time in will know who can really "dance", right?  I will always want someone to "show me", rather then tell me, anyway.  So...  Does it really matter?  I have seen legitimate rank holders of varying levels of skill.  Much high rank is often "administrative" as well.  I have seen excellent practitioners of low rank and so-so practitioners of high rank.  All just my opinion, of course.

In the end that is all it really is.  Just someone's opinion.
Cross ranking is one of those "double edged swords".  Can be good, or otherwise.  Again, it comes down to the individual.  The individual who decides to do it, and the individual that must become and live what has been bestowed on them.

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 14, 2009)

in regards to cross-ranking, all I can say is, "why would I throw away a perfectly good opportunity to become a white-belt again?"

As far as honorary ranks go, I don't need rank. My credentials are my head and my fists. If you want to honor me, spread my good name and help me build my reputation. That's a better political move than an HonoraryBB anyway. Instructors stake their career on their reputation, and good rep comes from people, not paper.


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