# Not taken seriously



## azmyth (Jan 5, 2008)

I just came from another forum, where basically unless your BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or some modern combatitive fighting system. Your style is junk. TKD and Aikido seem to get the brunt of the jokes. 

Why? Why are TKD practitioners bashed so much? aren't there bad schools and bad instruction in all arts? It mainly comes from "grapplers". I find that everyone here seems to be very humble, and open minded.. where as alot of people who train in a few of the styles I listed above (not all of them mind you, but alot) are very cocky. And everything thats not what they do is crap. I know it shouldn't matter what someone else thinks of the art I study. But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.

Martial arts is martial arts.


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## theletch1 (Jan 5, 2008)

As an aikido-ka I can honestly say "I feel your pain".  For many any art form that dedicates a good portion of it's time to the "sport" aspect gets ridiculed as not being a true martial art.  For others, if there is a sport aspect that doesn't involve their particular view of "martial sport" gets ridicule.  One would hope that as these individuals age/mature and get more experienced in the arts that their tone will become moderated.  As for aikido, it isn't an art with a lot of "flair".  That is, you really can't see what's going on since much of the technique involves changes in energy direction or pain compliance that rely on manipulating a small portion of the human body.  

This sort of stuff used to bother me a great deal.  Made me doubt my choice in the art that I study.  Eventually, I came to realize that I wasn't studying for the folks that would ridicule my, or anyones, art.  I was studying for ME and I was getting what I wanted from the art so it didn't make one whit of difference what others with less maturity thought of it.

I really appreciate your comments about the difference that you saw between other forums and MT.  Most folks that come here with a bad attitude don't last long.  Either they can't get anyone here to bite on their troll bait or they cross too many lines and wind up on the banned member list.  Glad you're here and contributing to our community.:asian:


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## exile (Jan 5, 2008)

azmyth said:


> I just came from another forum, where basically unless your BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or some modern combatitive fighting system. Your style is junk. TKD and Aikido seem to get the brunt of the jokes.
> 
> Why? Why are TKD practitioners bashed so much? aren't there bad schools and bad instruction in all arts? It mainly comes from "grapplers". I find that everyone here seems to be very humble, and open minded.. where as alot of people who train in a few of the styles I listed above (not all of them mind you, but alot) are very cocky. And everything thats not what they do is crap. I know it shouldn't matter what someone else thinks of the art I study. But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.
> 
> Martial arts is martial arts.



Three words, azmyth: Olympic martial sport. That's the long and short of it, I think.

TKD's current profile is that of a mass-participation martial sport whose schools depend heavily on 'Little Tiger' after-school participation by young children, and teaching focuses on street-absurd point-scoring foot-tag, with rank advancement dispensed on a regular basis as long as your contract payments are up to date. That's _it_. There's no other reason, so far as I can see. We know it's not all like that, not by a long shot&#8212;but unfortunately, it's true that Olympic TKD sparring rules _do_ emphasize virtuoso high kicks that are pretty unsuitable to street conditions and workaday garments, with minimal use of hand techs (due to scoring rules and judging practice); that there are McDojangs aplenty out there which emphasize self-esteem and confidence, and discipline for younger students, far more in their curriculum than ways of deflecting a roundhouse while closing the distance from the outside and breaking your attacker's jawbone with a horizontal elbow strike to his face. 

There have been endless discussions of this on MT; rummage around in the archives and you'll see. And there are MA sites that we all know and don't love which essentially slander the rich depth of not just TKD, but traditional Asian MAs in general, by taking these kinds of abuses and sport-driven, cash-driven practices as the actual content of the art, rather than one possible line of development which is hardly necessary, given the technical possibilities we all know are there. It's not just TKD that gets this treatment: karate gets slammed too, and the CMAs get their share of cheap, uninformed shots as well.

The thing you have to ask, azmyth, is, who is contributing to these sites' threads, and who is taking their hostile, derisive sniping seriously? People with in-depth knowledge of the MAs, people who've been in the fighting arts line of work for decades, know better than to dismiss any of the TMAs in this way. Sure, there are problems there, especially with the more commercially successful ones&#8212;TKD is certainly included here&#8212;but for every problem, there are usually a dozen possible solutions, and I think that's the case here as well. In the end, you can't worry about what hostile yahoos who get their jollies indulging information superhighway road rage have to say about TKD or any other TMA. We know better. As for the people you're talking about on those other sites, bury them in sleep....


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## searcher (Jan 5, 2008)

I think right now all of the striking arts are having to rebound from the early 90's Gracie success and what it did for the modern martial arts.   If you give it enough time it will come full-circle and things will even back out.   The guys you are talking about have not really studied TKD or the other styles that they bash on and so they go off of ignorance in their remarks.   Don't sweat it or give it too much thought, you will find your time better spent training.   JMO.


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## Brad Dunne (Jan 5, 2008)

theletch1 gave a good response to your question, but I will venture an additional viewpoint. Grapplers, in general, mostly the younger players get filled with the "macho" attitude. This is primarily due to the fact that their dealing with heavy physical contact (body on body) and strength / physical force becomes an important factor in their training. Same goes for the Muay Thai folks, they train hard and like to hit hard, so again were dealing with physical strength applications in their techniques.


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## AceHBK (Jan 5, 2008)

It is something that you have to let roll off your back.  Most of the time they are just followers and as you know the weather always changes and those people are fickle to where the wind blows.

They act like all these combative sports are such much better than TMA's.  Liek if they went to Korea, they could beat every person b/c all they know is TKD and their combative sport could wax the floor with all of them.

These people usually end up getting their butts handed to them because they don't realize that it is the person and not the art.  Those are likely to be the same people who when they get a BB they feel like they are invincible.

And I hate to admit it but it is really the new American idea.  MMA is something that Americans can claim as their own and of course many feel like it is unbeatable and everything else is trash.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 5, 2008)

azmyth said:


> I just came from another forum, where basically unless your BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or some modern combatitive fighting system. Your style is junk. TKD and Aikido seem to get the brunt of the jokes.
> 
> Why? Why are TKD practitioners bashed so much? aren't there bad schools and bad instruction in all arts? It mainly comes from "grapplers". I find that everyone here seems to be very humble, and open minded.. where as alot of people who train in a few of the styles I listed above (not all of them mind you, but alot) are very cocky. And everything thats not what they do is crap. I know it shouldn't matter what someone else thinks of the art I study. But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.
> 
> Martial arts is martial arts.


 
Welcome to the world of Internet forums, my friend. The truth is, every forum is a community, and some communities, such as MT, are healthy because the moderators and such are more concerned with running a decent internet community that provides a place for all stylists to feel welcome - not a community that exists solely to promote an agenda and bash other styles that don't fit said agenda. Most of the people who art bash are either ignorant, insecure in their own art, or both. You should never listen to them, they are just a waste of time because they have nothing better to do than to bash another art. As far as the cockiness, you will find that in every martial art - unfortunately, stupidity and arrogance are universal. You will find Taekwondoin who do the same thing - if it isn't flashy and sporty, they will bash it endlessly! You must also understand that at one point it was the strikers who bashed the grapplers endlessly and called what they did ineffective, now it is the other way around. Once strikers figure out how to defeat grapplers again, the argument will shift the other way, and so. Like I stated earlier - you need not waste your time by listening to what they say. The most important thing is that you choose a style that meets your own personal needs as a martial artist. Nobody can tell you what your own personal needs are, you must figure that out for yourself and choose the style that best meets them and satisfies you as an individual. If your style does this for you, then you are all set. Everybody who does something different is going to tell a million reasons why what you do is crap and what they do is the holy grail. If you are secure in what you do and you truly believe in your art, then ignore them or tell them to get lost. They are not worth debating with in the first place.


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## azmyth (Jan 5, 2008)

Well I can tell where the martial artists I want to be associated with hang out.

I'm very humble when it comes to martial arts. I feel like we should all be one big happy family. Martial artists are a very small part of society, and all of us are shunned at some time or another by someone for our "hobby" or "skill". So I just dont get why we all have to bash each other rather than learning from each other. 

I think the gracie's are amazing. I actually rooted for Royce when he fought Matt Hughes. I Like the martial arts, in ALL its facets. I love learning about all the different styles, and learning about their history and just everything I can soak in. I guess everyone can't be that way, and I just need to do my thing and not worry about anyone else. 

I'm not gonna name the other forum i am sure you all can make your own guesses as to which one I am referring to.


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## jks9199 (Jan 5, 2008)

Unfortunately, both TKD and Aikido have suffered from how they've been handled in the West.

TKD has become a very successful business; I think in my area probably 70 to 80 percent of the commercial schools are some variant of TKD, and most of them have a large focus on the daycare/before & after school programs, and kids's programs.  That's not to say there're no "legit" schools for adults, you just have to look harder.  Add the Olympic/sport TKD approaches, with various musical kata, hands down sparring, and all the rest, and it's easy for people who don't look beyond that outer surface to think that there's nothing more to it.  I was lucky; I got to see the way they teach TKD to the South Korean military, and to know that there are other ways TKD can be taught.

Aikido probably got treated WORSE!  It got absorbed by New Agers who were into "harmonizing" and "unifying" with their partners (no opponents, please, that's aggressive), and few people have seen the more functional, more vicious side outside of the first two (maybe three) movies Steven Seagal did.  

Throw in the current hype regarding Muay Thai, Jujitsu (especially Brazillian Jujitsu), and MMA as being "the closest thing to the real deal" (been there, done that... and they're not that close) and "ultimate combat sports" (there's a new one every decade or so... except when one of the old ones gets recycled...) and you have a lot of misinformed people running their mouths.  Ever notice how ALL grappling in MMA is described as "jujitsu" and all the striking tends to be called "Muay Thai?"  I'd love to see someone with a really good background in a traditional striking martial art (maybe Isshin ryu karate, for example) and a good ranking in Judo or even traditional jujutsu be identified as such in the MMA competitions -- and fight from their background.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 5, 2008)

azmyth said:


> Well I can tell where the martial artists I want to be associated with hang out.
> 
> I'm very humble when it comes to martial arts. I feel like we should all be one big happy family. Martial artists are a very small part of society, and all of us are shunned at some time or another by someone for our "hobby" or "skill". So I just dont get why we all have to bash each other rather than learning from each other.
> 
> ...


 
Glad to know. You sound like a very nice and humble person, so I am glad that you are a member of our community. You know, there are so many questionable forums out there these days that we could get a pretty nice sized thread going on them, but we don't do that here on MT . Jokes aside, I am with you on the martial family thing. We are all brothers and sisters in the arts, so we should be working together, not against each other. There is so much we can all learn from each other if only the egos can be put aside. TMA, MMA, so what? We are all part of the same family. I personally love them both (even though I am sad that my favorite MMA competitor is going to retire .)


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 5, 2008)

BTW, I am WTF Taekwondo, so I definitely know what you mean...As Taekwondoin, be it ITF or WTF, we catch a lot of flak. Just keep on doing what you do and having a good time at it.


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## Laurentkd (Jan 5, 2008)

Without reading any replys and off the top of my head I can think of two reasons.
the first seems to apply mostly to TKD- I think because there are so many TKD schools you just see a lot more poor quality schools.  I know in my 20 mile radius there are probably a dozen tkd schools, but I can only think of one judo school and it is very small.  So if someone drives around looking at schools they are going to see several low quality TKD schools, just because of percentages.

My second opinion is that right now because MMA is such a current fad, the vast majority of those training (including BJJ) haven't been in the arts that long.  Everyone thinks their art is the greatest when they first start training, and if even the seniors you look up to in your art have only been training for the last 10 years or so then of course everyone is going to say that their art is the best.  It just shows a lack of long term training- they have yet to see the holes in their art, the benifits of other arts, or even recognize aspects of their art that are the same or even influenced by other arts.Maybe I am under estimating the length of time MMA/BBJ type training has been around, but it all seems relatively new to me 

The people you do NOT see saying their art is superior to all others are those who have been training for a long time, whether it is Master Stoker in TKD or Tez in MMA.  I think it is just a maturity issue. 
Now on to read everyone else's responses...


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## azmyth (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys.

I think the MMA fad (I love watching it as much as the next guy) has caused there to be alot of armchair martial artists who don't have the martial arts background to treat all arts with a fair look.

I'm not a fan of the way ATA runs things, but I can't deny that those that are skilled in it are good at what they do. We are in the 21st century, and these days schools cannot make it on bread alone. You almost have to have the kids programs, the extra curriculur demo team, etc. to make a living. But like already mentioned that doesn't mean the teaching and instruction isn't there as well.

The last school I attended.. (quit for this reason) was kind of a hybrid art. He also taught "MMA" which I thought was silly since the term MMA seems to be more of a ruleset on how you can fight vs. a style of fighting. Most people who think MMA.. like said already think automatically.. Muay Thai and BJJ. Yet there are plenty of guys who don't do either, that are just fine. Cung Le.. I think is what? San Shou? He's one of my favorite fighters in MMA today. He has a very good attitude about things. Anyway, back to the story. We had more adults than kids.. but sadly the "type" of adult we had were those with the "I want to be a UFC fighter" mentality. They don't know anything at all about martial arts.. they just want to beat someone up.

We had weapons classes as well... and we had a few people who would never show up for those, and would never show up for empty hands class unless we were sparring. The rest of the classes they did attend were the MMA classes. Most of them didn't follow the rules of the dojo with bowing, yelling, and just generally being reverent. It was just "fighting class" to them. They don't care how many movements Chon Ji has in it, or who it is named after, or anything. They just want you to show them how to put someone in a rear naked choke so they can be just like Chuck Liddell or whoever the BIG thing is in MMA today.

I enjoy MMA.. but I do not enjoy this new group of "we train to fight" martial artists.. who don't really seem to be martial artists at all. If I had rank in both BJJ and Muay Thai.. I'd be offended If I was called an "MMA fighter".


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## ArmorOfGod (Jan 5, 2008)

This thread should keep going, but also azmyth should click here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52919
I think tkd has some very serious image issues and that thread talked about how to fix a lot of them.
The major tkd associations need to put their foot down and stop showcasing their 4 and 6 year old black belts.  Every time I see tkd on tv, there is a black belt who isn't old enough to tie his shoes yet.  Also, the tkd community needs to put a stop to claims that the art of tkd is over 1,000 years old.  It's not and that's okay. 
AoG


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2008)

I go on an MMA forum and to be honest TMA subjects never come up, so there's no TKD or karate bashing but what there is though is plenty of armchair critics. We basically know who all the fighters, promoters and people who actually train MMA are who go on and the health/training/fighting conversations are great but then you have the keyboard warriors who've never been near a gym or club in their lives. they'll pull to pieces a fighters performance without ever knowing what it's like to actually step up and fight someone. 
I don't think America can claim MMA as Ace suggests, it was going around the world at the same time, it can claim UFC though. Many of us here though were watching Pride before we saw UFC. Check out chuck Liddels background as well as most of the top MMA fighters.
Personally rather than argue with people who probably never train in _anything_ other than pressing keys on a keyboard I'd not bother going on the forums that bash other arts.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 6, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I go on an MMA forum and to be honest TMA subjects never come up, so there's no TKD or karate bashing but what there is though is plenty of armchair critics.


 
Lot's of armchair critics is very true Tez.  TKD can be a very, very effective system of personal protection.  Old style TKD was brutal and taught to the military who were feared.  Trust me anyone who has seen or heard about the ROK training will admit that it is Spartan and really tough.  So TKD can hold it's own.  

Now why does TKD get hammered alot?  Well it does come down to Dojang's that are run with the almighty dollar in mind.  That does have alot to do with it.  Also these same Training Halls are predominantly kid oriented so the art will take a hit for that.  Funny thing is that almost all of the BJJ schools that I know have kid's in them now and are beginning to go for strong kid's classes.  Heck back in the day you were lucky to get a Blue Belt in BJJ in two years or more.  Now there are some schools guaranteeing a Blue Belt in a year.  So the dollar is starting to play a role in BJJ too.  That is a big factor in how people view an art that and also unfortunately ring success.


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## K31 (Jan 6, 2008)

Cognitive dissonance.


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## azmyth (Jan 6, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Lot's of armchair critics is very true Tez.  TKD can be a very, very effective system of personal protection.  Old style TKD was brutal and taught to the military who were feared.  Trust me anyone who has seen or heard about the ROK training will admit that it is Spartan and really tough.  So TKD can hold it's own.
> 
> Now why does TKD get hammered alot?  Well it does come down to Dojang's that are run with the almighty dollar in mind.  That does have alot to do with it.  Also these same Training Halls are predominantly kid oriented so the art will take a hit for that.  Funny thing is that almost all of the BJJ schools that I know have kid's in them now and are beginning to go for strong kid's classes.  Heck back in the day you were lucky to get a Blue Belt in BJJ in two years or more.  Now there are some schools guaranteeing a Blue Belt in a year.  So the dollar is starting to play a role in BJJ too.  That is a big factor in how people view an art that and also unfortunately ring success.



I brought up both these points in the other forum and all it got me was a pocket of flames. I know about TKD's history, and what it was used for. The major problem is, this new breed of "martial artists" thats emerged since the UFC era cares nothing for history, and factual evidence of the arts. If Royce Gracie or whoever, can beat everyone then.. every art that isn't the art they do in UFC is useless. The problem with UFC is.... its so standardized now (which it has to be) that every fighter LOOKS like they are trained in BJJ.. when some of them are just really good wrestlers, really good judo practitioner's, etc. But the average armchair critic looking to get into UFC.. is of course going to shun everything thats not "beat your brains out" type training. Most of these type people were not martial arts enthusiasts until it became more like "street fighting". I have watched countless 80s MA movies, countless FC Karate fights, looked up information on countless different styles. I have nothing against boxing.. and in my eyes its just as "martial" as anything else.. but you don't see many boxers coming to a martial arts forum trying to bash everything thats not boxing (I'm sure it does happen from time to time)

I look at it this way. There wouldn't be this MMA fad today, if it weren't for traditional martial arts of ALL styles. Apparently these new kids didn't watch UFC 1. I competed in a tournament not long ago, and a BJJ school was there.. they had more kids than my TKD school has.. go figure that one.

I will never bash anyone elses style, as they are all great. I will say however, that I wish the age of the "muscled up jock" who just wants to learn to fight so he can go to the UFC.. would end. There are some really good martial artists in the UFC and they are being jaded by these wanna be's. Cung Le is a great example of what an MMA fighter SHOULD be about


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## CuongNhuka (Jan 6, 2008)

If it makes you guys feel any better, Cuong Nhu gets a lot of crapp too. Our matterial is blended, so we're accussed of teaching of crappy Martial Arts (or flawed Martial Arts). We realise that almost everything in Martial Arts can be found in Kata, so we're acussed of doing nothing but Kata. We do Vietnamese Animal Forms, and the response to that are just hilarious (they don't seem to realise that there is more then one way to do Tiger Claw). People also don't seem to understand what a demostrastion is.

Anyways, sport schools really deserve the negitive reputation, but they're not limited to Tae Kwon Do, there are alot of Sport Karate, Sport Kung Fu, and Sport Jeet Kune Do. Not to mention, every school of Boxing, Wrestling, Kick Boxing, BJJ, or MMA is basicly a sport school. I'm sorry, but there is little reason to train in those styles other then sport.
Now then, are ther non-Sport Tae Kwon Do schools? OF COURSE! I think that no one is willing to bash Jhoon Rhee, he trains harder then most Americans, and is older then most of the people who train hard! I understand that he does 500 push ups, 500 sit ups, and runs 2 miles EVERY DAY! Considering that, I doubt if any is willing to say anything negitive about him.


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## chrismay101 (Jan 6, 2008)

I like watching the UFC fights and i think a high skill level is required what ever art you do but I think certain martial arts may work better than other arts in it. but in end the UFC has lots of rules about what you can and can't do. its not 2 men enter 1 man leaves

when watching the ufc not all/alot of the fighters have black belts or any belts sometimes in a martial art. they dip in take what they want.
there are lots of exceptions gracie for example. they do what they consider to works they don't care about tradition.

in the second fight between matt hughes and george st pierre(sorry about spellings) matt kept trying to take george down but with a good defence he was able to keep the fight up right and the striker went to town on the grappler.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 6, 2008)

Perhaps the main allure of MMA is that it allows its practitioners to create their own martial style and train it the way that they think is best - full contact with full resistance. A lot of people either don't have the patience to put up with what we do in TMA, or they just plain don't like it. No problem, some things are not for everybody. I think that MMA gives people a chance to truly explore and find their own "thing" without restricting them to a particular tradition or culture. MMA is really big in the US. In the US, we don't like being restricted. We love the freedom of personal creativity, so naturally something like MMA is going to be more appealing to us. Another thing that I have noticed is that a lot of non-asians hate walking into an art and being marginalized because they are not from the culture. It is not a widespread problem, but it is a problem nonetheless. I have been to TKD schools that were run by Korean instructors and I noticed that the Korean students were treated much differently (favoritism) than the American students. Something like MMA, which is more open and inclusive, would also be more appealing to anybody who has experienced this unfortunate practice within the arts. There are a lot of people who don't like having to bow down to the far east, or any other culture, for that matter. MMA gives them a martial platform without forcing a particular tradition or culture upon them. I personally love the traditional stuff, but I understand that it is not for everybody. So it is a case of different strokes for different folks. Of course, both sides claim superiority, but that is just plain silly. It all comes down to individual proficiency.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 6, 2008)

I so hope that the Iceman doesn't retire. He is one of the guys that really made me a fan of the UFC. A traditionalist who likes the UFC, go figure .


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## azmyth (Jan 6, 2008)

I enjoy MMA as well. I'm about as traditional as they come.

What I don't enjoy.. is being from the south and seeing all the redneck, bully, brawlers who have never had any interest in martial arts.. til they found out they could now beat the crap out of someone else.

they come into my school to talk to the instructor about MMA (old school) and they look at us like we are inferior to them. I don't understand why, we are all on the same "side". 

I love MMA because its the closest thing to televised Martial arts tournaments we can get.

Does anyone else remember when ESPN had Isshinryu tourneys?


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## searcher (Jan 6, 2008)

azmyth said:


> What I don't enjoy.. is being from the south and seeing all the redneck, bully, brawlers who have never had any interest in martial arts.. til they found out they could now beat the crap out of someone else.
> 
> they come into my school to talk to the instructor about MMA (old school) and they look at us like we are inferior to them. I don't understand why, we are all on the same "side".


 
Yeah, I am with you on that.   I had a guy I used to work with tell me that all the karate guys were a bunch of wusses and we could not fight.   He would always say that "wrastlin" was far better and how he had beat one of those karate guys up.   I know the guy he beat on.   The kid was about 130 lbs and the redneck is about 300 lbs.   Not much of a match-up.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 6, 2008)

exile said:


> Three words, azmyth: Olympic martial sport. That's the long and short of it, I think.



No, that's got nothing to do with it.  Boxing, Judo & Wrestling are also Olympic sports and are very well respected in the circles that attack TKD and Aikido.

What gets TKD the negative rep is the high quantity of really young students, often with high ranks.  The large number of schools teaching under the name TKD that are more like day care centres then gyms.  TKD might have a large range of quality in schools under that name, but there are a lot of really bad schools in terms of fighting skill on the bottom end.  Partially its just numbers, there are a lot of TKD schools.  And partially it is marketing, TKD as a whole has positioned itself as a very kid orientated and commercial system.  Not all schools fit that mould, but the ones that do are the ones that stand out.

I wouldn't worry too much though, the people that criticise the most are usually the ones that watch TUF & WWE, but never actually train anyways.


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## azmyth (Jan 6, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> No, that's got nothing to do with it.  Boxing, Judo & Wrestling are also Olympic sports and are very well respected in the circles that attack TKD and Aikido.
> 
> What gets TKD the negative rep is the high quantity of really young students, often with high ranks.  The large number of schools teaching under the name TKD that are more like day care centres then gyms.  TKD might have a large range of quality in schools under that name, but there are a lot of really bad schools in terms of fighting skill on the bottom end.  Partially its just numbers, there are a lot of TKD schools.  And partially it is marketing, TKD as a whole has positioned itself as a very kid orientated and commercial system.  Not all schools fit that mould, but the ones that do are the ones that stand out.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much though, the people that criticise the most are usually the ones that watch TUF & WWE, but never actually train anyways.



Yep. ATA is one of the biggest factors. It is probably the most well known TKD org other than the ITF and WTF. Its more of a summer camp than a martial arts program, from what I have seen. There was an ATA school that came and did a demo at a local festival here. There were 7 year old 2nd degrees, camo belts, and neon nunchucks, and plastic bo staffs. Even for demonstration standards it wasn't very good. Don't get me wrong, I have seen plenty of GOOD ATA students, but those just happen to be the ones who still focus on training through all the fluff. I asked about an ATA school nearby here when i was looking for a new school just to check all my options. They wanted 120 dollars a month, plus a contract, plus they had all these little extra programs that cost more. Oh, and if I wanted to bring my whole family.. they had a plan for me. I don't see anything wrong with this, as long as they don't try to market themselves as being for self defense. They do teach alot of good technique from what I have seen.. its just that they don't reinforce it, and since everything is on a time limit to get your 7 year old to black belt in 1 year.. alot of stuff slides by. 

I guess it really all comes down to being popular. The more popular something is, the more crap it gets. The sad thing is.. if TKD was the art that was dominating UFC.. it would be the art all the bully brawlers would be flocking to.

I like TKD, in all its forms. I like Karate, kungfu, Muay Thai, Judo.. etc.
Its all about finding your niche and finding a good school to fulfill it. I like to kick, and I like to stretch my body to its limits and do things that are out of comprehension for most people. So, with that TKD is just he right art for me. I enjoy point sparring, and doing forms, and learning about the arts history. I also enjoy seeing the occasional display of flying kicks associated with TKD. I think I would enjoy Hap kido and Tang Soo Do as well, but trouble is finding a school around here. Its either.. bad MMA school, TKD (where I am at now), or BAD ATA TKD.


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## exile (Jan 6, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> No, that's got nothing to do with it.  Boxing, Judo & Wrestling are also Olympic sports and are very well respected in the circles that attack TKD and Aikido.



But there's a big difference between those three activities in particular and TKD, Andrewnamely, fighting range. The reason why the people on the Site We Don't Like and similar places have a few good things to say about those particular activities is that their range corresponds to the extremely close range that corresponds to a real streetfight. While these sports _are_ Olympic sports, they're widely seen by people who profess to take a hard-***, realistic view of MA in relation to streetfighting as realistic in their training and applicability to what happens to you in a bar fight or parking lot assault. Boxers are typically toe-to-toe, the ground grappling arts are still closer range, and that trumps the fact that these sports are also based on artificial rules and scoring systems.

The problem with TKD's Olympic avatar is that it rewards techniques which make sense in terms of the kind of spectacle that plays well with ringside judges, but which are widely seen as hopelessly out of touch with real street violence. It's the fact that TKD has become so widely popular in its Olympic sparring guise, rather than its brutal old-school CQ versionsthat provokes the kind of response that Azmyth is talking about. The phenomenon you're talking aboutthe 'Little Tigers' babysitting side of itis part and parcel of the reduction of the martial content of the art in its most widely known form, but I don't think that's the thing that really yanks these guys' chains. It's the 810 ft. fighting distiances that the sport imposes via its Olympic scoring system.


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## YoungMan (Jan 6, 2008)

But if Tae Kwon Do focused on strictly close quarters hard core street realism, there wouldn't be much room for anything else. The art would never advance. Think of it like this: if you constantly had to psychologically prepare yourself for assault, you'd never get anything meaningful done because your whole life would be directed toward fending off an attack.
I agree with Andrew's assessment: Tae Kwon Do gets so much disrespect from other stylists because it basically sold its soul for Olympic glory. At one time, that was admirable. Korea was a Third World Country, and nobody thought the Olympics was feasable.
However, to raise its awareness and get bodies in the door, the Kukkiwon essentially gave rank to all who wanted it. Which led to a legion of "Instructors" who were (or claimed to be) Kukkiwon certified, teaching inferior technique to gullible students.
The end result is that much of what passes for TKD technique these days is, quite frankly, shoddy. Certainly nothing like what the old school black belts strove for. I used to get my butt whupped by guys who had extremely powerful technique, and couldn't care less about medals. Not that they were constantly in danger of assault, but their motivations were certainly more noble. And these were Kukkiwon black belts.


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## exile (Jan 6, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I agree with *Andrew's assessment: Tae Kwon Do gets so much disrespect from other stylists because it basically sold its soul for Olympic glory.* At one time, that was admirable. Korea was a Third World Country, and nobody thought the Olympics was feasable.



Hey wait... that's what _I_ was saying, YM! Andrew was _disagreeing_ with me. I mean, I don't _think_ I'm imagining that...



YoungMan said:


> However, to raise its awareness and get bodies in the door, the Kukkiwon essentially gave rank to all who wanted it. Which led to a legion of "Instructors" who were (or claimed to be) Kukkiwon certified, teaching inferior technique to gullible students.
> The end result is that much of what passes for TKD technique these days is, quite frankly, shoddy. Certainly nothing like what the old school black belts strove for. I used to get my butt whupped by guys who had extremely powerful technique, and couldn't care less about medals. Not that they were constantly in danger of assault, but their motivations were certainly more noble. And these were Kukkiwon black belts.



Right, there's been a general diminution in quality as the martial content of the art gets diluted for sport purposes. But Andrew was arguing that the real problem was the focus on young children and lowered standards. The two go hand in hand, in a way, but a lot of the people who knock TKD, maybe most of them, have never been in a dojang, I suspect. For them, the 'public' vision of TKD is (in the by-now clichéd phrase) sparring foot tag on the `combat' side and something dangerously like Korean wushu on the forms competition side (that Chloe Bruce video from a few weeks back was very unnerving, and not in a good way). It's what they perceive as combat-irrelevance that pushes their buttons.

A lot of other good points have been made above about the nature of the criticism that being channeled toward TKD from You Know Where and similar places, and what drives that. The thing is, the reason why TKD is such a big target for these yobs is that the disparity between its claims to combat effectiveness and the extreme artificiality of its Olympic sport manifestation work together to paint a big 'Kick Me Here' sign on its butt, at least in certain quarters... those that azmyth is thinking of, for example...


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## AceHBK (Jan 7, 2008)

Questions really should be:

Do you really care what others think about it and how they perceive it?


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## Cirdan (Jan 7, 2008)

Go to any TKD demonstration and you`ll be more than likely to find a bunch of high ranked very young black belts throwing a movie-fu show. The ones doing traditional TKD (Shotokan), a system well able to do the job, are hard to spot.


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## azmyth (Jan 7, 2008)

I honestly don't mind the movie-fu demo's if the skill is there in the other areas too, but they normally aren't. Most orgs focus only on that, and this is not TKD.

I know this is a lame example.. but if you have ever seen the movie "Best of the Best" they kind of paint a picture of how TKD should be viewed in my eyes. Respected as a deadly and useful art if trained properly.

Heck the "IF" factor is all I am asking for. But, the "you know who" folks are so jaded.. that its basically like "If one of the other people with a chip on his shoulder thinks TKD sucks... so should I" Some of them don't know a darn thing about the art.. they are just following the crowd.

They'll deny that they'd ever get kicked or hit.. because their art is so much more superior.. its almost like they have this superman complex. I don't doubt that if I got thrown to the ground.. without some sort of ground training I'm screwed.. but that doesn't mean I can't still do some damage.

In my eyes, TKD is an art of multiple purpose....

Self Defense, Sport, Exercise, mental fitness, showmanship, speed, agility, and heart. 

The old saying "it doesn't need to look pretty if it works" is true.. but isn't it cool, than it could be both in TKD? Thats how I look at it anyway.

I'll save my flashy kicks for demo's, and keep my front kicks and sweeps for the street.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 7, 2008)

about taekwon do, there are many things that i like and some that i think could be better.  
 i never really thought about it before but i think it is true that in taekwondo, there is a tendancy to want to show that taekwondo is a brutally powerful fighting art. in the process, there is too much focus on power and less on skill.
  which is strange considering that in my opinion, for taekwondo one needs a high level of body controll, skill as well as flexibility.  the focus on kicking alone opens entire worlds of kicking and kicking combinations.  also i find taekwondo is one of the most beautiful aesthetic martial arts. 
  i myself, value kicking just as i do striking with hands,  and am capable of fighting without hands if need be.   i have had contact with taekwondo since i was a teenager and it further helped me further build on my kicks, that i had been practicing from bujinkan, karate and kungfu.  
  if someone knows how to make the kicks connect, doesnt matter what style it is kyokushin or taekwondo or whatever, then it is a very powerful style.


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## azmyth (Jan 7, 2008)

exactly. 

problem is, people have painted a picture containing 720 spin kicks and 8 year old black belts.


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## KEritano (Jan 7, 2008)

azmyth said:


> exactly.
> 
> problem is, people have painted a picture containing 720 spin kicks and 8 year old black belts.


 
Unfortunately, it is the TKDists who have painted this picture, not ordinary people.  Flash and youth make for great demos and shows.  Real self-defense doesn't do well on the big screen.


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## azmyth (Jan 7, 2008)

the real TKDists out there understand that a 720 kick is not effective on the street, and flinging around a plastic bo staff is pointless..

but, the people "watching" on the outside that know nothing about TKD only see this picture. So I guess your right, but its only a certain group of TKDists who are painting this picture.

would be nice if they would show the other side of the paper too.


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## dancingalone (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't think the fancy kicks are the main culprit.  Most people are rational enough to realize they are just the 'show' part of TKD.  Where TKD falls down is the advent of no-contact sparring and 5 year old black belts.  There's also a new emphasis of character development over self-defense training which I find very troubling.


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## exile (Jan 7, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> I don't think the fancy kicks are the main culprit.  Most people are rational enough to realize they are just the 'show' part of TKD.  Where TKD falls down is the advent of no-contact sparring and 5 year old black belts.  *There's also a new emphasis of character development over self-defense training which I find very troubling.*



Do you get the sense that this has become almost a mantra for TKD schools and publications, much more so than any other MA, including Japanese karate (where, apparently, it was Funakoshi in his postwar writing who really got the ball rolling on the 'character perfection' line)?


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## Andrew Green (Jan 7, 2008)

720 spin kicks and other fancy stuff takes a lot of skill, athleticism and training to be able to do, I have a lot of respect for any school that can get young kids motivated to train to that level.  It might not be "real fighting", but who cares, they are in better shape with far better motor skills then 99% of other kids there age (and adults).


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## Andrew Green (Jan 7, 2008)

exile said:


> But there's a big difference between those three activities in particular and TKD, Andrewnamely, fighting range.



That too, but that's not because it is a Olympic sport, but because of the rules that where used.  Open tournament style point fighting is no better, probably worse in my mind, and Olympics had nothing to do with that 

I think a lot of what went wrong with TKD was in the importance certain groups placed on making it "unique".  People have been fighting for thousands of years, trying to come up with a "unique" format is going to disconnect it from other formats.  Of course had they not gone for the "unique" approach, it would have just been kickboxing


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## azmyth (Jan 7, 2008)

I guess I can just say...

I like TKD, I like the fancy kicks, and I like about breaking my neck trying to do them correctly. 

to each his own.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 7, 2008)

azmyth said:


> I guess I can just say...
> 
> I like TKD, I like the fancy kicks, and I like about breaking my neck trying to do them correctly.
> 
> to each his own.


 
That is about it.

If you like it and are happy with it who cares what anybody else thinks


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## dancingalone (Jan 7, 2008)

exile said:


> Do you get the sense that this has become almost a mantra for TKD schools and publications, much more so than any other MA, including Japanese karate (where, apparently, it was Funakoshi in his postwar writing who really got the ball rolling on the 'character perfection' line)?



Absolutely.  For background info, I've moved around a lot in the last eight years for career reasons, and so I've have to check out various dojos and dojangs for training opportunities.  I don't really discriminate by style as I think excellent tuition can be found anywhere, in a big studio or in a backyard, in a TKD or TSD school or in a boxing gym.  Time after time however I've been drawn to either tae kwon do or the other many flavors of karate.

In my observation, the karate schools (Okinawan or Japanese) believe in the dojo kun and they recite it before and sometimes after every practice, but it doesn't permeate the atmosphere as it does in TKD.  It's just part of the practice ritual and then you get on to the sweating and pain dealing.  

Meanwhile, at many dojangs I've visited, they have a student oath (the dojo kun), but they also do lots of activities I consider superfluous.  Examples are the phrase of the week... something you are supposed to meditate upon at home and then you say it as you enter the training floor, like 'Courtesy, Sir!' or 'Harmony, Sir!'.  Another example I chuckled at was when the school owner told me she would make me a better person and make me a better performer in life through TKD.  In response, I politely thanked her and crossed her off my list.  I'm already pretty successful at my career and I have a loving family that can fill in what others gaps I am missing.  I don't need TKD for that.  Whatever happened to just teaching students how to defend themselves in an altercation?  I guess that went away with skyrocketing insurance premiums.

The chain schools that cater to children are the worst in terms of promoting this 'character' stuff.  You probably know which ones I am referring to.  They generally have gaudy uniforms with lots of patches and stripes.


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## exile (Jan 7, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> Absolutely.  For background info, I've moved around a lot in the last eight years for career reasons, and so I've have to check out various dojos and dojangs for training opportunities.  I don't really discriminate by style as I think excellent tuition can be found anywhere, in a big studio or in a backyard, in a TKD or TSD school or in a boxing gym.  Time after time however I've been drawn to either tae kwon do or the other many flavors of karate.
> 
> In my observation, the karate schools (Okinawan or Japanese) believe in the dojo kun and they recite it before and sometimes after every practice, but it doesn't permeate the atmosphere as it does in TKD.  It's just part of the practice ritual and then you get on to the sweating and pain dealing.



That's one of the things I hope that TKDin the hoped-for change to more practical and realistic attitudes I envision for itwill get back to. Sweating and pain dealing sounds, from all I've heard, like the Kwan era in a nutshell.



dancingalone said:


> Meanwhile, at many dojangs I've visited, they have a student oath (the dojo kun), but they also do lots of activities I consider superfluous.  Examples are the phrase of the week... something you are supposed to meditate upon at home and then you say it as you enter the training floor, like 'Courtesy, Sir!' or 'Harmony, Sir!'.



:disgust: _Sickening!!_




dancingalone said:


> Another example I chuckled at was when the school owner told me she would make me a better person and make me a better performer in life through TKD.  In response, I politely thanked her and crossed her off my list.  I'm already pretty successful at my career and I have a loving family that can fill in what others gaps I am missing.  I don't need TKD for that.



Don't you just hate it when you get that prissy, holier-than-thou attitude? The arrogance underlying it is... hard to describe adequately. 




dancingalone said:


> Whatever happened to just teaching students how to defend themselves in an altercation?  I guess that went away with skyrocketing insurance premiums.



Between that, and the fact that a lot of people use TKD as a mainstay after-school activity for their kids and would be horrified at the thought of them actually learning effective self-defense (partly because, I'm guessing, no one wants to think of their kids being in that kind of danger, so a certain amount of denial is involved), yes, the whole tendency in much TKD instruction seems to be anything _but_ SD. We're a martial art, folksbut it's OK, you parents and insurers, we don't have anything to do with actual violence! 



dancingalone said:


> The chain schools that cater to children are the worst in terms of promoting this 'character' stuff.  You probably know which ones I am referring to.  They generally have gaudy uniforms with lots of patches and stripes.



We have a few of those in some of the malls around here.... I really consider myself lucky that I didn't wind up at one of those places when I first got started, though I don't think I'd have stayed around very long if I had....


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## AceHBK (Jan 7, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> If you like it and are happy with it who cares what anybody else thinks


 
I so agree. Why even worry about what others think?


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## azmyth (Jan 7, 2008)

trying not to start another topic...

I was just on ATA's website, looking at videos... the sparring looked like it was pretty rough contact compared to what I have seen/heard..

did they change things around?


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## Blindside (Jan 7, 2008)

If TKD wants to be portrayed as a serious fighting art, many schools really need to change their presentation.  My kali instructor rented space from a TKD instructor for awhile.  The front windows of the school were covered with the images of three anime kids in dobuks kicking, punching, and using a shinai.  I have no idea about the quality of TKD taught there, but but "serious fighting art" was not the first thing that sprang to mind.

Lamont


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## Andrew Green (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, some schools cater to people looking to train hard, some cater to people wanting to brag about there coloured belt and awsome deadliness, and some cater to parents wanting to brag about there kids belt.

Anime kids in the window is going after soccer moms more then anything, wanting there little 6 year old to look adorable in his white suit and black belt, yelling and looking "fierce" with his glow in the dark nunchuks.

And much to the dislike of several "old school" practitioners, that is the image a lot of TKD schools are pushing forward to represent the style.


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## azmyth (Jan 7, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Well, some schools cater to people looking to train hard, some cater to people wanting to brag about there coloured belt and awsome deadliness, and some cater to parents wanting to brag about there kids belt.
> 
> Anime kids in the window is going after soccer moms more then anything, wanting there little 6 year old to look adorable in his white suit and black belt, yelling and looking "fierce" with his glow in the dark nunchuks.
> 
> And much to the dislike of several "old school" practitioners, that is the image a lot of TKD schools are pushing forward to represent the style.



and this would be wonderful if they seperated it as something else.. but they promote this as what "TKD" is as a whole.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 7, 2008)

Same thing happened to Karate, in fact a lot of those old school TKD schools probably used "Korean Karate" to promote themselves back in the day.  I also imagine Amateur wrestlers are not found of having WWE and like organizations use the name "wrestling" either. Or the full contact fighters that now see countless "kickboxing" classes that are really just a aerobics variation.

It sucks, but nothing can really be done about it.  Promoting something under a name everyone recognizes will turn out better results then if they came up with a new name.  It's also a funny line to draw, where does TKD (or any other art) end and a new name become required?

But like karate, TKD now has a bunch of different branches, which are not always related in anything more then the loosest meaning of the word. "Tae Kwon Do", like "Karate" has become a generic umbrella term.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 7, 2008)

Look, at the end of the day, some of those guys have a point.  Not all arts are created equal.  Many arts emphasize low percentage techniques, questionable techniques (like one-hit kills), and stuff that is just plainly made up (like chi balls or no-touch knockouts).  I would even freely admit that my own art suffers from some of these flaws.

On the application end, many arts have also been associated with poor training methods, with some validity.  The points have already been well made about the commercial structure of American TKD.  Similarly, any school that discourages sparring, or uses heavily padded light contact point sparring, and calls it self-defense is heavily flawed.  You just are not ready to say that you know how to defend yourself if you have never been hit hard, or no one has ever resisted the performance of your techniques.

Could the people you are talking about be a little more level headed and not be jerks about their criticisms?  Sure.  Does being a jerk make them wrong?  No, it does not, and some of their criticisms are valid.

If you want to benefit the most in the exchange, incorporate their criticisms and make what you do better and more effective.  After all, we are talking about defending your life, you might as well do it as effectively as possible.



azmyth said:


> I'm not gonna name the other forum i am sure you all can make your own guesses as to which one I am referring to.



Oh, don't worry, the word gets filtered out.  If you try to describe said forum in a way that won't trigger the filter, you'll have that filtered too and get a stern note from a moderator.

I'm sure it's a very mature and effective way to do things.


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## The Last Legionary (Jan 7, 2008)

Gotta love filters. Me, I prefer Brita, but thats a personal thing. Now if they are filtering out another websites URL here, there is probably a very good reason. Porn, Spam, Anti Social Behaviour, Hate Speech, Lack of Personal Hygiene, Cooties, etc. Of course, only an absolute **** head would thumb their nose in public at board staff, purposefully work to avoid an in place filter, or ignore clearly posted rules about such things. Are you such an ****? Can you pull your head from this deep dank hole within which it is stuck, and if so, will you then wash your hair or simply comb it through?

As to the site you love and lament, I know it well. One usually must bathe after visiting using strong disinfectant. I feel my IQ goes up 50 points once I navigate away from it. Too much Bull by product.

As to TKD, most arts are just jealous that they know how to rake in the dough, and have nice big training centers, while the rest of em eek out an existence living in strip malls and time shared YMCA's. If your average "real" art would market half as effectively as the local TKD school, they might change things. Problem is, flash is what sells the most.  As for TKD, a trophey won't save you on the street, but a good teacher can show you how to transition what works in sports to something effective on the street. 

*IV*


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## Empty Hands (Jan 7, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> Of course, only an absolute **** head would thumb their nose in public at board staff, purposefully work to avoid an in place filter, or ignore clearly posted rules about such things. Are you such an ****?



Probably.



The Last Legionary said:


> Can you pull your head from this deep dank hole within which it is stuck, and if so, will you then wash your hair or simply comb it through?



Probably not.


The Last Legionary said:


> As to the site you love and lament, I know it well.



I don't "love" it, but some of the members therein have a point, as I have expounded on.


The Last Legionary said:


> As for TKD, a trophey won't save you on the street, but a good teacher can show you how to transition what works in sports to something effective on the street.



The problem is, you fight how you train.  If you train with your hands at your sides and to only perform high, flashy kicks, then that is what you will do under pressure.  If you do that, you will get slaughtered in real life.

Sure, not all TKD schools train you that way, but we are talking about perceptions here, and a great many schools do train that way.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 7, 2008)

To my anonymous commenter: you're kind of what I am talking about.


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## shesulsa (Jan 7, 2008)

Say, folks - howzabout we get back to the topic?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 7, 2008)

azmyth said:


> I just came from another forum, where basically unless your BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or some modern combatitive fighting system. Your style is junk. TKD and Aikido seem to get the brunt of the jokes.
> 
> Why? Why are TKD practitioners bashed so much? aren't there bad schools and bad instruction in all arts? It mainly comes from "grapplers". I find that everyone here seems to be very humble, and open minded.. where as alot of people who train in a few of the styles I listed above (not all of them mind you, but alot) are very cocky. And everything thats not what they do is crap. I know it shouldn't matter what someone else thinks of the art I study. But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.
> 
> Martial arts is martial arts.


TKD exhibits an alternative way of thinking compared to the other arts. It is because of that you are going to get some chuckles.
Sean


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## YoungMan (Jan 7, 2008)

Modern Tae Kwon Do has developed two serious problems in my opinion:

1. A student-based approach. By this I mean the curriculum is designed to make students happy, exist as cheap day-care for kids, and provide a family oriented place to kill a couple of hours. If you ask people why they attend a certain school, most likely they will tell you they like the Instructor and the fellow students. And that's great. Why go someplace you hate?
However, back in the old days, the Instructor didn't teach his class to make you happy. He taught what he taught regardless of how you felt about it. He had goals in mind-your happiness not being one of them.
This is one reason I do not advocate full-time teachers. To me, some of the worst Instructors are full time. In their endless quest to maintain enrollment and make happy students, they have compromised the integrity more than anyone.

2. The other problem is the increasing superficiality of Tae Kwon Do-the removal of its holistic nature. In the old days, you could focus on different aspects depending on where your skills lay. Don't like sparring? There's always forms, one-step, self defense etc. 
These days, in its quest for Olympic glory and world credibility, Tae Kwon Do has excluded all those who don't share its dreams of producing Olympic champions. Everything it does seems to be guided by the desire to make better athletes and champions, leaving the other 99% behind. It's great to have that opportunity; but Tae Kwon Do should no more be defined by its Olympic sparring than you are defined by your job. Yeah, it's important, but it's not all you are. Tae Kwon Do must reassert its multi-faceted nature. If you don't or can't do Olympic sparring, there are still plenty of options available.


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## Cirdan (Jan 8, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> In my observation, the karate schools (Okinawan or Japanese) believe in the dojo kun and they recite it before and sometimes after every practice, but it doesn't permeate the atmosphere as it does in TKD. It's just part of the practice ritual and then you get on to the sweating and pain dealing.
> 
> Meanwhile, at many dojangs I've visited, they have a student oath (the dojo kun), but they also do lots of activities I consider superfluous. Examples are the phrase of the week... something you are supposed to meditate upon at home and then you say it as you enter the training floor, like 'Courtesy, Sir!' or 'Harmony, Sir!'


 
I find the whole "We shall build a better world trough Taekwondo" attitude a bit disturbing. From what I`ve seen it looks almost like kids in class are taught loyalty to the art like soldiers are expected to be loyal to their country. What happened to just let people build skill and focus and confidence trough old fashioned hard workouts?


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## exile (Jan 8, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> I find the whole "We shall build a better world trough Taekwondo" attitude a bit disturbing. From what I`ve seen it looks almost like kids in class are taught loyalty to the art like soldiers are expected to be loyal to their country. What happened to just let people build skill and focus and confidence trough old fashioned hard workouts?



This strange tendency in TKD is something I suspect can be traced to the horrific conditions under which the art emerged&#8212;the whole experience of the Kwan founders trying to get started under the savagely hostile conditions of the Japanese occupation, and the almost immediate followup of the Korean War and the emergence of the Rhee autocracy and the Park dictatorship, with a very heavy military element pervading the whole of Korean society at the time (and it was a _long_ time). The association of TKD with Gen. Choi, the Tiger commandos and Marine divisions; of these individuals and institutions with the ultimate success of the ROK army (viewed widely then in a desperate time,  as the bedrock institution of the South); and therefore, by a kind of weird syllogism, of TKD with the preservation and salvation of the country from a Communist conquest, gave rise to a view of TKD which would almost _have_ to be different from what we would think of as a 'normal' view of what a MA is and what it's for. 

TKD is associated with the 'soul' of Korea in a way that I don't think any other MA is; conversely, as I've suggested in another thread, it differs from other TMAs in that it's owned, in essence, by a national state, rather than being a locally developed, homegrown product the way the CMAs are and, to a lesser extent, Okinawan and Japanese karate are (via the ryu system). The two aspects are connected, I believe.

I can actually _see_ this for Korea; what I find bizarre is how completely so many American schools and institutions have taken over the kind of reverential attitude, so clearly based (to my eyes, anyway!) in the facts of South Korea's horrific wartime and postwar experience and running so counter to what I think of as the rambunctious practicality of American cultural attitudes... :idunno:


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## dancingalone (Jan 8, 2008)

I was browsing another TKD forum and I came across this gem. (If I am breaking any rules, please let me know and I'll edit my post.)

"I think that people start martial arts for many reasons and most of those that do start do not see the what I consider the most important pqart of what we do. That is self control, respect and the life qualities that are taught in [our organization]. There is great value in having a system that sets standards and has some control over the quality of its instruction. To many, that seems like a Mcdojo but to me that seems like an organization."

I respect his right to have his views about training TKD... But, it's not my view.  Organizations like the Boy Scouts exist to promote moral values.  Let's use them instead of diluting a combat system like TKD.


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## granfire (Jan 8, 2008)

Ah, yes, Art bashing, favorite past time of the testosterone controlled world of MA boards.

here is my take:

The criticism usually comes from the young males who consider themselves 10 foot tall and bullet proof. Instant gratification may play a roll, machismo guaranteed. 

The 'moral overhead' is frowned upon anyhow, screw traditions. BJJ is a fashion statement (right now our umbrella organization has expanded the SD ground escapes into BJJ to be taught at the centers)

But to each their own. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it.
I don't need to defend my choice of art I practice. It gives me what I need and I adore my instructors. I am - unlike the 20ish male - fragile and well aware of my shortcomings and cannot afford to be busted up in what is, though a large part, only a fraction of my life.

The West lacks the connection between the physical aspect of the art and the mental segment. meditation is suspicious to most, where extroverted emotions are more common. We have tenets we recite before each class, and I try to fill them with meaning in my everyday life, but they are nothing outrageous, just common sense and courtesy.

So, while grappling is fun and a welcome change in pace, we promote it as another tool, to be able to get back to what we train for primarily: stand up and fight. But it does not give me the other things that make the art for me: the discipline and concentration to perform the seemingly meaningless.

In short, I gave up a long time ago to give a rat's behind about what other people think. I march to a different drummer in most aspects of my life, I enjoy childrens/youth literature more then most 'adult fiction', watch anime and cartoons and play MMPORPG with gusto where I am a minority...

I do TKD because it is fun, I like the people and it's good for my mind and body. And if you don't like it, that's tough luck for you, and only you.

(and that was a generic you, as this is the TKD forum!  )

Now, of course with anything that popular, you will find a lot of shadow behind the light. It brings out the best in people, but the worst in some as well. Profiteering and money grabbing, false masters and such. Not to mention politics and egos.


Oh, and in my area, even tho we are the largest MA school in town with the greatest staying power, hardly anybody does taekwondo, most go to 'Karadee' :2xbird:


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 8, 2008)

Actually, taken from some of what exile was saying about the "soul" of Korea, it makes a little bit more sense.  

In some sense it would seem that the Korea viewpoint of Taekwondo is much more a way of life than a way of fighting.  It can *out* of a fight for survival but it came to be much more about fighting than fighting, if you will.  "Indomitable Spirit", "perseverance", etc.. the will to fight and overcome, etc...  Starting with yourself, and out to the world you face.  Taekwondo started as a means of survival through which those characteristics were applied, but it later became a tool through which those characteristics were learned and exercised and demonstrated.

And from that point of view, Taekwondo would be more important as a way of life than a way of fighting, if you will.  And in a sense, the mental, emotional, and physical self-discipline, control, and strength to learn the forms and the techniques is more important than the actual fighting usage of those techniques.  And making that aspect of Taekwondo accessible to all, kids, women, men, anyone, is of more overall importance than making it applicable in combat for warriors.

So in that respect, to the people who created the art (not the individuals but the culture) and the people who are the caretakers of the art in it's home, Taekwondo does, intentionally, grow away from it's roots as a fighting system

And since we in the West don't see Taewondo as our national identity, or 'soul', we don't have the same goals or perspectives


I'm not saying I agree with this direction and mentality, but now it starts to make a little more sense


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## YoungMan (Jan 8, 2008)

I would agree with that assessment. If you want to understand Tae Kwon Do, you must understand the culture and nation that gave rise to it. The mistake is to think that because TKD doesn't advocate beating someone down, it is less effective. To the contrary. Although it does have an arsenal of punishing techniques that are quite capable of causing pain, it is also a balanced philosophical art that tries to  uplift. If all you see is Olympic sparring, you really get a distorted picture of what Tae Kwon Do encompasses.
Unfortunately, Westerners do tend to get turned off by the philosophy, culture, bowing, and etiquette. But that's part of TKD. It really is much more than just fighting. Fighters tend to have a short lifespan/career anyway. Martial arts is about your whole lfe, not just what you do in a ring.


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## azmyth (Jan 8, 2008)

granfire said:


> Ah, yes, Art bashing, favorite past time of the testosterone controlled world of MA boards.
> 
> here is my take:
> 
> ...



I'm marching right along with ya!

As soon as I get home and get this new massive gaming video card hooked up.. I'm gonna go over  my form a few times, and then jump into EQ2, WoW or Vanguard.. and pwn some noobs in my kind of combat.. the kind where i can't get hurt


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## Blindside (Jan 8, 2008)

With regard to the original post, about TKD not getting the respect it "deserves" on those other boards.  Those boards do generally demand some sort of "ring proof" that the style is effective.  Even if the assumption is that ring = real life is false, why doesn't TKD have their respect?

You have Olympic TKD that is full contact ring sport, with millions of participants, and is being pushed farther every year.  The simple question is why haven't you seen successful translations of one ring sport to another.  You certainly see elements of Muay Thai, wrestling, boxing, BJJ etc in mainstream kickboxing and MMA events.  Why hasn't TKD made the jump?  Certainly no one on that "other" board said this guy couldn't fight: 



 
Given the size of Olympic TKD why haven't you seen a swamping of standup striking events by crossover competitors?

Lamont


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 8, 2008)

I'll admit that after I've been back in Taekwondo training for awhile I want to take a short at a local amateur MMA competition


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## exile (Jan 8, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> In some sense it would seem that the Korea viewpoint of Taekwondo is much more a way of life than a way of fighting.  It came *out* of a fight for survival but it came to be much more about fighting than fighting, if you will.  "Indomitable Spirit", "perseverance", etc.. the will to fight and overcome, etc...  Starting with yourself, and out to the world you face.  Taekwondo started as a means of survival through which those characteristics were applied, but it later became a tool through which those characteristics were learned and exercised and demonstrated...
> 
> So in that respect, to the people who created the art (not the individuals but the culture) and the people who are the caretakers of the art in it's home, Taekwondo does, intentionally, grow away from it's roots as a fighting system
> 
> ...



I'm thinking aloud a bit here... but I believe you can see this very unique and emotionally extremely intense relationship between Koreans and TKD in the treatment of the hyungs.   The names of Okinawan and Japanese kata typically involve naturalistic imagery&#8212; _Empi_, 'flying swallow', _Gankaku_, 'Crane on a rock',  _Hangetsu_, 'half-moon'&#8212;or simple statements of performance properties of the kata, e.g., _Nijushiho_ 'twenty-four steps', _Gojushiho_ 'fifty-four steps', _Jitte_ 'ten hands' and so on. Compare these names with what you find in the ITF tuls, for example&#8212;_Dan-Gun_, the legendary semi-divine founder of Korea, _Do-San_, patriotic hero of the prewar resistance to the Japanese occupation, _Won-Hyo_, named for the monk who introduced Buddhism into Korea, _Jun-Gun_, a hero named after a Korean patriot who was executed in 1910 for the assassination of Hiro-Bumi Ito, the first Japanese Governor-General of Korea under the Occupation... the list goes on, Mythological and legendary heros, patriotic martyrs and generals. The WTF forms are associated with more abstract notions, but kind of groan under the weight of the Buddhist philosophy and cosmology that have been written into them. It's clear that the hyungs in TKD bear a huge burden of political and cultural symbolism, and there's a lot very intense feeling invested in them; look at the incredible hostility to _Juche_, with its associations (for many South Koreans apparently) of what they took to be General Choi's betrayal of his own nation by his contacts with the North. Look for example at the discussion here, containing this representative excerpt:

_Juche means &#8220;self reliance&#8221;. In 1956 when the unity of the communist world broke up, the North Koreans began to stress a philosophy of self-reliance & independence. The philosophy revolves around the concept that man is master of his own destiny & that he should remain independent of all outside influences. This implies that there should be no spiritual or psychological dependence in accepting outside assistance. Although the doctrine stresses the centrality of human beings in the world, the North Korean people are to achieve this by their subordination to their leader; this supported the rule of Kim il Sung & his son&#8217;s subsequent succession...

A further reason why the pattern Ko-Dang did not sit well with the North Korean leader was that it was named after Cho Man-sik, a political leader who vied for power as a party leader, in direct opposition to Kim il Sung, in the early days of modern North Korea. As a leader of the Chosun Democratic Party he was imprisoned by the Russians to prevent a democratically elected party.​_
Pretty heavy, eh? I mean, this is just a MA _form_ we're talking about! But it's completely characteristic of the incredibly charged nature of TKD's symbolism and the cultural and political traumas that its own history, and the attitudes of the Korean people to it, reflects.

The more I look at it, the more I think that the gulf between the American and Korean perceptions of TKD is just unbridgeable, and in a sense, that's fine. There is no reason why people in this country cannot write their _own_ interpretation and use of the technical contents of this art, without trying to ingest a complex and often tragic cultural iconography that for the Koreans seems to be at least as important as the martial aspect&#8212;_now_, if not in the early days when it was pretty much just a practical fighting tool reflected its origin as Koreanized Shotokan/Shudokan karate. As I say, what I find disturbing is the degree to which Americans seem willing to buy into what, for us, is just the mystification of a potentially very practical fighting art. We aren't Koreans, we don't really get the cultural/philosophical/political symbolism, we don't share anything like the same history and have no way to see the same _meaning_ in TKD as the Koreans do. Which is _fine_. But by the same token, it makes no sense for us to believe we have to buy all the 'spiritual guidance' fluff that people have been complaining about in this thread. In Korea, it might make sense; over here, it's just dilletantism, cultural dabbling and posing, 'playing pretend'... however you want to put it.


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## Steel Tiger (Jan 8, 2008)

I have been reading through this thread with interest for the last few days because I have often wondered why TKD is so vilified in the MA world.  why haven't other arts suffered similarly.  There has been some scoffing I guess, but nothing like what TKD catches.



Blindside said:


> Given the size of Olympic TKD why haven't you seen a swamping of standup striking events by crossover competitors?


 
I think that the reason that we are not seeing TKD competitors in MMA contests is not because they can't cut it as many would have us believe, but because in MMA competition you cannot win an Olympic medal.  Why go into a competition where you will most likely have to roll around on the ground to win a few thousand dollars when you could compete for your country and win one of the most prestigious sporting prizes there is?  





exile said:


> I'm thinking aloud a bit here... but I believe you can see this very unique and emotionally extremely intense relationship between Koreans and TKD in the treatment of the hyungs. The names of Okinawan and Japanese kata typically involve naturalistic imagery _Empi_, 'flying swallow', _Gankaku_, 'Crane on a rock', _Hangetsu_, 'half-moon'or simple statements of performance properties of the kata, e.g., _Nijushiho_ 'twenty-four steps', _Gojushiho_ 'fifty-four steps', _Jitte_ 'ten hands' and so on. Compare these names with what you find in the ITF tuls, for example_Dan-Gun_, the legendary semi-divine founder of Korea, _Do-San_, patriotic hero of the prewar resistance to the Japanese occupation, _Won-Hyo_, named for the monk who introduced Buddhism into Korea, _Jun-Gun_, a hero named after a Korean patriot who was executed in 1910 for the assassination of Hiro-Bumi Ito, the first Japanese Governor-General of Korea under the Occupation... the list goes on, Mythological and legendary heros, patriotic martyrs and generals.


 
Very interesting juxtaposition.  One often thinks of the Japanese arts as tools of nationalist fervour, especially from between the wars, but they've got nothing on TKD.  That is a very heavy burden for a martial art to carry around.  It kind of makes me glad I don't do TKD because I know I would get interested in who all these people were and what they did.  There is an interesting implication with these names though.  A Korean performing these tuls would, I expect, be taught to contemplate the deeds of the persons they were named after.  How would Americans feel about forms called, "George Washington" or "Abraham Lincoln".  It would be tough to just switch off and do an "Abe Lincoln" without thinking about the man.





exile said:


> The more I look at it, the more I think that the gulf between the American and Korean perceptions of TKD is just unbridgeable, and in a sense, that's fine. There is no reason why people in this country cannot write their _own_ interpretation and use of the technical contents of this art, without trying to ingest a complex and often tragic cultural iconography that for the Koreans seems to be at least as important as the martial aspect_now_, if not in the early days when it was pretty much just a practical fighting tool reflected its origin as Koreanized Shotokan/Shudokan karate. As I say, what I find disturbing is the degree to which Americans seem willing to buy into what, for us, is just the mystification of a potentially very practical fighting art. We aren't Koreans, we don't really get the cultural/philosophical/political symbolism, we don't share anything like the same history and have no way to see the same _meaning_ in TKD as the Koreans do. Which is _fine_. But by the same token, it makes no sense for us to believe we have to buy all the 'spiritual guidance' fluff that people have been complaining about in this thread. In Korea, it might make sense; over here, it's just dilletantism, cultural dabbling and posing, 'playing pretend'... however you want to put it.


 
And yet for all this TKD is still the most popular martial art in the world.  It may get ridiculed by some areas of the martial arts world but it still attracts thousands each year.  Can any other art say the same?

I, too, am no fan of the blind cultural immersion that one sees so often with Asian MAs.  I have seen a few too many Jujutsu and Aikido instructors so overwhelmed by their Nihonophilia that their classes made little sense.  The same is likely happening in TKD but with the addition of _truly_ parochial cultural references.  A lack of understanding or a misunderstanding and the presentation of such a failure must have an effect on the perception of the art.


All I can really say to all of you who are TKD practitioners is just keep doing what you do, whether it be improving the quality of life, learning effective combat techniques, or pursuing Olympic immortality.  It doesn't really matter what macho young hot-bloods say during their dick-measuring contests as long as you are content in yourself.


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2008)

All I can say is WOW I need a day or two to take in this entire thread. When I really get everything into perspective I will post my feelings.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 8, 2008)

_Which is fine. But by the same token, it makes no sense for us to believe we have to buy all the 'spiritual guidance' fluff that people have been complaining about in this thread. In Korea, it might make sense; over here, it's just dilletantism, cultural dabbling and posing, 'playing pretend'... however you want to put it._

I agree.  I mean, I started TKD at 35. My motivations and character traits for hardwork, perseverance, etc, are pretty much well developed for whatever they are. TKD gives me a chance to explore them, but for neither me nor my kids to I see it as the prime mover in building those characteristics.  As an American I have a different cultural heritage from which I may draw inspiration for our culture, and TKD just isn't part of it.

But now it makes more sense to me why WTf and KKW would develop forms and sparring with little combat practicality.  It;s not a 'watering down' of TKD, but a growth of TKD into a wider acceptance that is all about those character developing aspects. I mean it's "watered down" in the sense of a practical combat fighting system, but that's not what TKD really is to them, if you will.

That;s not to say that's what *I want from Taekwondo.  I *do* want a practical self-defense system at the root of it.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 8, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> I think that the reason that we are not seeing TKD competitors in MMA contests is not because they can't cut it as many would have us believe, but because in MMA competition you cannot win an Olympic medal.  Why go into a competition where you will most likely have to roll around on the ground to win a few thousand dollars when you could compete for your country and win one of the most prestigious sporting prizes there is?



Respect and hard fighting, as well as popular acclaim.  If not for that, wouldn't everyone be into Judo or TKD for the Olympic appeal?

Also, I do think that some TKD'ers have competed in MMA, although I don't recall details.



Steel Tiger said:


> How would Americans feel about forms called, "George Washington" or "Abraham Lincoln".  It would be tough to just switch off and do an "Abe Lincoln" without thinking about the man.



Really, really weird.  I wouldn't like that at all.  It would seem artificial and jingoistic, especially since those two notable fellows had nothing notable to do with martial arts.  Even the "Americana" seems a bit weird to me, although I've gotten used to it.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> As an aikido-ka I can honestly say "I feel your pain".


 
Holy smokes did this thread take off in a hurry.

I haven't read thru it all, but I wanted to comment on this comment by Theletch.

I'll offer a different perspective:  embrace the ridicule.  Let the uninformed, or the blatantly stupid, think whatever they want.  How does it hurt you?  If they think you do something lousy, then they will underestimate you and that is to your benefit.

Once upon a time, one's martial training was kept very close and secret.  You didn't want everyone else to know what you know, because you might need to actually defend you life with it someday.  It's a bit more of a modern phenomenon to thump our chests and announce to the world "my stuff is good too!!", but then in order to prove it, you get suckered into playing their game.

I won't play their game, and I don't care if they think what I do is worthless.  It's to my benefit that they think so.  When I hear morons bash any art other than what they do, I just sort of smile and nod, and keep my own mouth shut.

Those who don't know, are usually the one's with the biggest mouth.


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## Steel Tiger (Jan 8, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Respect and hard fighting, as well as popular acclaim. If not for that, wouldn't everyone be into Judo or TKD for the Olympic appeal?
> 
> Also, I do think that some TKD'ers have competed in MMA, although I don't recall details.


 
Well, yeah, I guess there are other things to go into MMA for.  As to everyone doing Judo and TKD for the Olympic appeal, some are just realists I suppose and know that they are not going to the Olympics, but still like to say they do an Olympic sport.  There is kudos and appeal in just the idea of participating in such a sport even if you will never go to the Olympics.






Empty Hands said:


> Really, really weird. I wouldn't like that at all. It would seem artificial and jingoistic, especially since those two notable fellows had nothing notable to do with martial arts. Even the "Americana" seems a bit weird to me, although I've gotten used to it.


 
But the Koreans whose names have been chosen for the tuls are not martial artists either, generlly speaking.  They are indicative of patriotic ideals.  It is quite clear that there are at least two types of TKD, and I'm not simply referring to technical differences.  There is Korean TKD and there is International TKD.  

This could actually be adding to the disrespect that TKD receives from so many other martial artists.  Afterall, there is a worldwide governing body (or maybe two) and yet the art itself is not the same outside Korea as it is inside (and, again, I'm not talking about technical aspects).  

I have to say I don't really know.  Like Exile, I'm just thinking out loud and expressing some things that came to me while reading through the thread.


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## exile (Jan 8, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> ... There is an interesting implication with these names though.  A Korean performing these tuls would, I expect, be taught to contemplate the deeds of the persons they were named after.  How would Americans feel about forms called, "George Washington" or "Abraham Lincoln".  It would be tough to just switch off and do an "Abe Lincoln" without thinking about the man.



Yes. As I understand it, that's the intention. Even more, you're supposed to be able to 'see' the characteristics associated with the man, or heroic culture figure, or some great historical scholar's thinking, _in_ the movements of the form itself. I swear, I'm not making this up. I have a book, _Taekwondo: Philosophy and Culture_, lavishly produced with supernaturally beautiful photographs of the Korean countryside and architecture, by Kyong Myong Lee, Professor of... are you ready?... _Sports Diplomacy_ at Chungcheong College, KKW 9th dan, Advisory Member to the WTF, KKW researcher, Deputy Secretary General of the WTF from 1991&#8211;1999... there's more (including 9 books on TKD) if you want to hear it! ) And this is what we read about the KKW/WTF hyung _Ilyeo_:


_Ilyeo means the thought of a great Buddhist priest of Silla Dynasty, Saint Wonhyo, which is characterized by the philosophy of oneness of mind (spirit) and body (material). It teaches that a point, a line or a circle ends up after all in one. Therefore, the poomsae represents the harmonization of spirit and body, which is the essence of martial art..._​
And there's lots more along these lines for all of the other WTF forms. I have read similar things about some of the ITF patterns, in which specific aspects of the form are related to episodes in the character's life (_Do-San_, which begins in a standard _joonbi _ 'ready' stance, is supposed to represent a man in handcuffsI've read somewhere&#8212;a clear reference to the source figure's life of opposition and repeated imprisonment during the Occupation). 



Steel Tiger said:


> I, too, am no fan of the blind cultural immersion that one sees so often with Asian MAs.  I have seen a few too many Jujutsu and Aikido instructors so overwhelmed by their Nihonophilia that their classes made little sense.  The same is likely happening in TKD but with the addition of *truly parochial cultural references.*  A lack of understanding or a misunderstanding and the presentation of such a failure must have an effect on the perception of the art.



Parochial, with a vengeance. 

I have to say, there's something paradoxical, and strange in a very deep way, about an art which is seen by those who developed it as so saturated, to the very core, in a particular local cultural and political history, and yet which has disseminated so widely. Something's gotta give, somwhere along the line!




FearlessFreep said:


> _
> But now it makes more sense to me why WTf and KKW would develop forms and sparring with little combat practicality.  It;s not a 'watering down' of TKD, but a growth of TKD into a wider acceptance that is all about those character developing aspects. I mean it's "watered down" in the sense of a practical combat fighting system, *but that's not what TKD really is to them, if you will.*
> 
> That;s not to say that's what *I want from Taekwondo.  I *do* want a practical self-defense system at the root of it._


_

I feel the same way. You and I, and pretty much all other Westerners, look at TKD and see something radically different, really fundamentally different, from what people in Korea see, is what I'm coming to think. And we have to go with what we see, not what they see, because we can't, and have no reason whatever, to see it the way they do. Our cultural experience has no connections with theirs, in the critical respects that TKD emerged in, which would lead us to understand TKD in the way they do._


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## Kacey (Jan 8, 2008)

Exile, for the most part I agree with you - but there's one part here that I need to give a different slant to:



exile said:


> look at the incredible hostility to _Juche_, with its associations (for many South Koreans apparently) of what they took to be General Choi's betrayal of his own nation by his contacts with the North. Look for example at the discussion here, containing this representative excerpt:



I can't speak for people in Korea, but I can speak for quite a few ITF practitioners I've met - either in person or on a BB somewhere - about why _they_ don't like Juche.  The symbolism, as you said, relates to a concept of self-reliance; on the face of it, this seems like a good thing.  The problem is, it's a _Communist_ theory of self-reliance - while the direct meaning from Gen. Choi is


> *[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, Sans Serif]JUCHE is a philosophical idea that man is the master of everything 			and decides everything. In other words, the idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny. It is 			said that this idea was rooted in Baekdu Mountain which symbolizes the spirit of the Korean people. The diagram 			represents Baekdu mountain.[/FONT]*


there are a few problems.  Juche was, indeed, introduced _last_ of all of the ITF patterns, and it _did_ replace Ko-Dang - but that's not why people don't like it.  It was introduced as an attempt to influence the Olympic Committee to include the ITF, rather than the WTF, in the Olympics, and the Communist ideal it represents is that man - _in the form of the Communist Party_ - is the master of his own destiny; a slight difference from the definition above, which is the one given to ITF students.  The "man" referred to in this definition is a general "man", not an individual "man", and the concept is used by the Communist Party in North Korea as a way to bolster the concept that individuals should do whatever the Party tells them.

It is _that_ interpretation that is why many ITF practitioners don't like Juche - in fact, many don't do it; they continue to practice Ko-Dang instead.  Some practice the physical movements of Juche, and call the pattern Ko-Dang... I learned both, and my students, as they reach I Dan and start to learn the tuls needed for II Dan, learn both; they are each part of the history and tradition of TKD, even though the inclusion of Ko-Dang disrupts the philosophical explanation of the reason for 24 patterns (24 = a day; by metaphor, a day = a life - thus, the 24 patterns represent an entire life).  Ko-Dang, however, is a historical revenant, and we continue to include it as such.


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## Cirdan (Jan 9, 2008)

Very interesting indeed. I did not know of the political influences inherent in the new forms, I only assumed the old shotokan kata were thrown out and hastily replaced so bogus claims could be made about TKD being the 2000 year old korean art. Sports diplomacy indeed. 

Well I am off to do some cross country skiing. (50 000 year old Norwegian art. Each and every time I slide my ski forward I symbolize the spear stabbing of King Olav the Holy at the battle of Stikklestad a thousand years ago. Hail Thor!)


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## exile (Jan 9, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Juche was, indeed, introduced _last_ of all of the ITF patterns, and it _did_ replace Ko-Dang - but that's not why people don't like it.  *It was introduced as an attempt to influence the Olympic Committee to include the ITF, rather than the WTF, in the Olympics,* and the Communist ideal it represents is that man - _in the form of the Communist Party_ - is the master of his own destiny; a slight difference from the definition above, which is the one given to ITF students.  The "man" referred to in this definition is a general "man", not an individual "man", and the concept is used by the Communist Party in North Korea as a way to bolster the concept that individuals should do whatever the Party tells them.



Yes, that's right in line with the North's old-style, unapologetic Stalinism (the old North Korean communists were always much more closely aligned with the Soviet Union than with China). The so-called 'New Soviet Man', a phrase you used to hear a lot during the '30s and '40s was exactly that&#8212;'man' as redesigned by the Party. I didn't realize that about the role of _Juche_ in the Olympic politicking... wheels within wheels, eh? 

It sometimes seems as if virtually _everything_ to do with TKD forms, whether of the WTF or ITF variety, is so freighted with conflict and extreme contention&#8212;a direct reflection of the really severe conflict that Korea itself has experienced over so much of its history, but also the play of considerable interpersonal conflict amongst many of the main players in the emerges of modern TKD.



Kacey said:


> It is _that_ interpretation that is why *many ITF practitioners don't like Juche - in fact, many don't do it; they continue to practice Ko-Dang instead.*



I'm not surprised. That kind of symbolic association was the kiss of death on the Korean peninsula and still is, I guess (and by extension). This is yet another instance of what I've noticed about forms specifically and the kind of culture of TKD in general&#8212;everything seems a matter of life and death, everything carries so much weight.  



Kacey said:


> Some practice the physical movements of Juche, and call the pattern Ko-Dang...



Right&#8212;the problem is the associations of the _name_.




Kacey said:


> I learned both, and my students, as they reach I Dan and start to learn the tuls needed for II Dan, learn both; they are each part of the history and tradition of TKD, even though the inclusion of Ko-Dang disrupts the philosophical explanation of the reason for 24 patterns (24 = a day; by metaphor, a day = a life - thus, the 24 patterns represent an entire life).  Ko-Dang, however, is a historical revenant, and we continue to include it as such.



That seems like a good way to do it. It's a nice illustration of how the nastiness of everyday political reality can mess up all attempts at symbolic neatness...


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## azmyth (Jan 9, 2008)

WoW. this thread is going off in all kinds of crazy direction.. interesting read!


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## exile (Jan 9, 2008)

azmyth said:


> WoW. this thread is going off in all kinds of crazy direction.. interesting read!



But see, it's all connected to the problem of why TKD isn't taken seriously by (some)people outside the art. There are several layers to the problem; it's not a simple, one-factor story. You have the problem of the Olympification of the sport, leading to it being diluted over time for combat application; the emphasis on rapid promotion and the after-school daycare aspect that have been noted, the political/historical/cosmological/symbolic complexity that makes things so obscure and counterintuitive from the US perspective especially, and ties into the seemingly excessive emphasis on a spiritual/moral/character-building essence of the art, as vs. combat effectiveness... these things _all _feed in...
'


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## IcemanSK (Jan 9, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Exile, for the most part I agree with you - but there's one part here that I need to give a different slant to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That's really cool info, Kacey! I was taught Juche in the early 90's but not given any meaning to it. Thanks for that!


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## jim777 (Jan 9, 2008)

exile said:


> But see, it's all connected to the problem of why TKD isn't taken seriously by (some)people outside the art. There are several layers to the problem; it's not a simple, one-factor story. You have the problem of the Olympification of the sport, leading to it being diluted over time for combat application; the emphasis on rapid promotion and the after-school daycare aspect that have been noted, the political/historical/cosmological/symbolic complexity that makes things so obscure and counterintuitive from the US perspective especially, and ties into the seemingly excessive emphasis on a spiritual/moral/character-building essence of the art, as vs. combat effectiveness... these things _all _feed in...
> '


 
They do indeed. I really think the whole McDojo side of TKD training plays a very large part though, maybe the largest part. For example, last week at a family event I met up with a young cousin of mine (he's about 11) who has been taking TKD for about 4 years now (twice as long as I have for clarification). I asked him what rank he was at, and he proudly told me "6th Bo black belt". I'm immediately thinking this seems like a classic example of made up belts for the purpose of gathering test fees, and I congratulate him on his rank and dedication "to have come so far". I asked him what hyungs he knew, as I wanted to know if he was doing the same ITF hyungs as I'm doing, and he wasn't familiar with the word. So I asked "Patterns maybe, or kata, do those sound familiar?" And he said, "Oh yeah, we do those, but I don't know any of their names". He said his _sensei_ (yes, his TKD instructor tells the students to call him sensei) didn't require them to know the names of the patterns they did. I never bothered telling him what I was up to because it would have been like speaking latin to him. I just wished him luck and mentioned my concerns to his father.

Whenever I hear that anyone is taking TKD it obviously interests me as a TKD student myself. That said, it is too often disappointing to hear them describe their school and curriculum and feel from my point of view they aren't getting out of TKD what they could. I don't know that TKD will ever have much respect from the 'new to martial arts' MMA folks, but it would certainly help with the rest of the martial arts world if there were a lot fewer flavors of TKD, IMHO. Simply saying "I study TKD" doesn't really say enough to someone familiar with TKD. You need to add ITF, or WTF, or any of the many other flavors to give your fellow TKDers an idea of what you do and what branch of the art you're on. And that's to your fellow TKDers. From the outside of TKD, I think too many people just see TKD as the style of the "$400 dollars for the test 6th bo black belts".

again, just my $.02, and this has been a great thread


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## Laurentkd (Jan 9, 2008)

jim777 said:


> They do indeed. I really think the whole McDojo side of TKD training plays a very large part though, maybe the largest part. For example, last week at a family event I met up with a young cousin of mine (he's about 11) who has been taking TKD for about 4 years now (twice as long as I have for clarification). I asked him what rank he was at, and he proudly told me "6th Bo black belt". I'm immediately thinking this seems like a classic example of made up belts for the purpose of gathering test fees, and I congratulate him on his rank and dedication "to have come so far". I asked him what hyungs he knew, as I wanted to know if he was doing the same ITF hyungs as I'm doing, and he wasn't familiar with the word. So I asked "Patterns maybe, or kata, do those sound familiar?" And he said, Oh yeah, we do those, but I don't know any of their names". *He said his sensei * (yes, his TKD instructor tells the students to call him sensei) didn't require them ...
> 
> again, just my $.02, and this has been a great thread


 
I am not trying to bash anyone here, I am just asking because I am curious.  It seems that I have found that ATA schools often use a mix of Japanese terms such as _sensei_.  Does anyone here know why?


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## azmyth (Jan 9, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> I am not trying to bash anyone here, I am just asking because I am curious.  It seems that I have found that ATA schools often use a mix of Japanese terms such as _sensei_.  Does anyone here know why?




Bow to your Sensei (sorry I couldn't resist)


do you think the Cobra Kai was karate or TKD?


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## dancingalone (Jan 9, 2008)

I believe "kai" is Japanese, roughly meaning 'school'.  Karate Kid movie factoid:  the movie pays homage to the system of Okinawan Goju-ryu.  Mr. Miyagi's last name is an obvious reference of Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju-ryu.  In the third installment of the series, the kata Daniel learns is Seiunchin.


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## Laurentkd (Jan 9, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> I believe "kai" is Japanese, roughly meaning 'school'. Karate Kid movie factoid: the movie pays homage to the system of Okinawan Goju-ryu. Mr. Miyagi's last name is an obvious reference of Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju-ryu. In the third installment of the series, the kata Daniel learns is Seiunchin.


 

But that only means Daniel was learning an Okinawan art.... I guess we can only asume that the Cobra Kai were studying Karate.
But from now on I am going to pretend they were doing TKD.  I always thought Johnny was the coolest!!


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## dancingalone (Jan 9, 2008)

> But from now on I am going to pretend they were doing TKD.  I always thought Johnny was the coolest!!



Lots of TKD in that movie.  The Polynesian guy who lost to Johnny in the semi-finals was probably a Korean stylist with all his jump spinning crescent kicks.  Hate to say it, but the Kobra Kai were indeed karate people.  Whoever did the choreography of the fight scenes knew at least a little about the martial arts, since the way Johnny deal with his flashy semi-final opponent was with classic hard style karate tactics (block and reverse punch).

Now that I think about it, I remember the stuntman who stood in for Pat Morita in his action scenes was Fumio Demura, a well-respected shito-ryu man.

A couple of years ago, an authentic Kobra Kai uniform used in the movie (the bleach blond bully who Daniel knocks out in his first(?) bout) turned up on Ebay.  I would have loved to have bought it, but the opening bid was like $2K!


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## granfire (Jan 9, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> I am not trying to bash anyone here, I am just asking because I am curious.  It seems that I have found that ATA schools often use a mix of Japanese terms such as _sensei_.  Does anyone here know why?





maybe because Japanese has more mainstream references....anybody knows Sensei...but Sabumnim.....


(I learned a lot about Korea from the old names of the forms, my previous knowledge was derived from watching MASH....)


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## Steel Tiger (Jan 9, 2008)

exile said:


> But see, it's all connected to the problem of why TKD isn't taken seriously by (some)people outside the art. There are several layers to the problem; it's not a simple, one-factor story. You have the problem of the Olympification of the sport, leading to it being diluted over time for combat application; the emphasis on rapid promotion and the after-school daycare aspect that have been noted, the political/historical/cosmological/symbolic complexity that makes things so obscure and counterintuitive from the US perspective especially, and ties into the seemingly excessive emphasis on a spiritual/moral/character-building essence of the art, as vs. combat effectiveness... these things _all _feed in...
> '


 
There also seems to be a variation in the way that TKD is denegrated.  There is the obvious macho posturing that it is "no good on the street" that comes from a simple lack of understanding of, well, anything.  But there is also a more knowledgeable position which can see that TKD has a lot to offer but it is being made subservient to so much other stuff and is under such, seemingly, strict control that the content is being lost.  Unfortunately TKD seems to catch flak from as many directions as it has complicated internal features.

But there are some things that seem to me to just be foot-shooting coming from TKD.  I have been interestingly reading the threads about sine wave movement in TKD and I have to say the more recent developments in this area are not a good look for the art.  The theory seems quite sound (it doesn't gel all that well with the type of movement I am used to but different arts you know) and yet recent trends have me thinking no real thought is going into why students are bobbing up and down like corks in water.  

Having seen patterns performed with  and without this exaggerated movement I have to say, from an outsider's perspective, the exaggeration of sine wave movement really does TKD no favours.  It just seems to me to be yet another area in which some TKD practitioners are opening themselves up to criticism and, unfortunately, probable ridicule.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 9, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> There also seems to be a variation in the way that TKD is denegrated. There is the obvious macho posturing that it is "no good on the street" that comes from a simple lack of understanding of, well, anything. But there is also a more knowledgeable position which can see that TKD has a lot to offer but it is being made subservient to so much other stuff and is under such, seemingly, strict control that the content is being lost. Unfortunately TKD seems to catch flak from as many directions as it has complicated internal features.
> 
> But there are some things that seem to me to just be foot-shooting coming from TKD. I have been interestingly reading the threads about sine wave movement in TKD and I have to say the more recent developments in this area are not a good look for the art. The theory seems quite sound (it doesn't gel all that well with the type of movement I am used to but different arts you know) and yet recent trends have me thinking no real thought is going into why students are bobbing up and down like corks in water.
> 
> Having seen patterns performed with and without this exaggerated movement I have to say, from an outsider's perspective, the exaggeration of sine wave movement really does TKD no favours. It just seems to me to be yet another area in which some TKD practitioners are opening themselves up to criticism and, unfortunately, probable ridicule.


 
Sine wav move in TKD  I better go read that.

I may have forgotten it since TKD was years ago for me but I do not ever remember a Sine wav movement, but then this was pre-Olympic too. 

Since I left TKD, many years ago, I have gone back from time to time and looked a local TKD schools and most have been a disappointment from what I was use to. Of the 2 dozen or so I have checked out I have found only 1 that impressed me and that was also a Hapkido school as well. 

Sadly I do feel that some of TKD's problems are self imposed these days if for no other reason than the mass production of teachers both true and false that seems to have occurred. 

But TKD is not alone in this, my main art now is Taiji and if you are looking to not get taken seriously as a martial artist this is the art for you. And much of this is also self imposed due to the mass production of alleged teachers and real teachers lightening things up to gain more alleged masters.


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## Windsinger (Apr 10, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> BTW, I am WTF Taekwondo, so I definitely know what you mean...As Taekwondoin, be it ITF or WTF, we catch a lot of flak. Just keep on doing what you do and having a good time at it.


I hear that. I'm only recently involved with an ITF TKD school (which I think is a good school, but that's me), and I've already caught flak on another forum for it. I don't believe there is one Ultimate Martial Art(tm), but that each style can work for people who want to study it, work hard at it, and do it for the right reasons. TKD is where my interest lies. There are other styles I'd like to try, but TKD is going to be my base.

I have a friend who is trained in an insanely wide variety of martial arts. He comes from a family who believes that more martial arts you know, the better a person you are (which I can believe, if he is any kind of example of this philosophy). When I first trained in TKD (a badly failed attempt, but that's another thread), I talked to him about it. His opinion - TKD has some of the most powerful and amazing kicks he'd every tried. He said it has it's failings, but so does any martial art. I trust his opinion on this.

It just drives me nuts when people say a "sport" martial art (ie TKD, judo, etc) isn't a _real_ martial art. I even saw one person who has divided martial arts into martial arts and martial sports. What a load! If you train in a style _specifically_ for competitions, sure, I could see it not being as useful for defending yourself. But in that case, it's not a failing of the style. Rather it's because of where your focus is.

Then again, what do I know?  This is all just my opinion. YMMV.

Thanks for listening to me drone on and on.


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## StuartA (Apr 10, 2008)

azmyth said:


> But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.


Ignorance.. as to what is TKD the art, TKD the SD system and TKD the sport!



> Martial arts is martial arts.


'Fraid not.. some just play at it, others put a little more emphasis on the martial!

Stuart


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