# Splashing Hands



## yamabushi

I am looking for some history about "splashing hands." I have seen that a video exists by James McNeil. Has anyone seen it? Can anyone point me in the right direction? Is it a subset of a system? Is it a Wing Chun term?


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by yamabushi _
> *I am looking for some history about "splashing hands." I have seen that a video exists by James McNeil. Has anyone seen it? Can anyone point me in the right direction? Is it a subset of a system? Is it a Wing Chun term? *


Well, I'm not sure that I have found a good resource but I found a Web Site that gave this...





> "Splashing Hands is an extremely practical, no-nonsense art. It features quick shuffling footwork, similar but faster than that used by the famous Mohammed Ali, and low-focused straight leg kicks. These are combined with jabs, punches, elbows, hammer-fists, chops and finger pokes thrown with blinding, machine gun-like rapidity. Opponents have a difficult time defending against the kind of attacks carried out by a fighter trained in Splashing Hands because of the speed with which the techniques are delivered as well as the sheer number of strikes and kicks the opponent has to deal with in a short period of time".



I found several websites that are offering the complete Splashing Hands system on two VHS or DVD's. I'm allways a little leary of video systmes that are "the complete and utmost street fighting system". But I haven't heard of splashing hands until right now so maybe I've just stumbled onto some bad websites. Try a google search for "Splashing Hands".

7sm


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## Samurai

I have one of the two video from James McNeil on Splashing Hands.  It is BORING!!  The techniques are ok, but they are presented in a way to cure the insominac.  They look a lot like Wing Chun meets Kenpo Karate.

--Jeremy Bays


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## yamabushi

Thanks for the help....It seems from the web site that it is one of those systems that is rather unusual. Perhaps it is a subsystem or a subset of some well known system. I ordered the videos and perhaps they may be boring. I find,however that videos that are all jazzed up are trying to sell the practitioner rather than allow him to inject his own personality. Once they arrive and I view them, I may feel they are boring...or not...I will post an opinin in case any one else is interested. If any one has found more info, I am still researching. Thank you


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## streetwise

Splashing Hands is not a style, it is, as you surmised, a subset or group of techniques using a single concept. Many Southern CMA systems (like WC)will have something similar, though you will not find the techniques called "splashing hands", I think that the name is something James McNeil came up with.


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## keith1892

No, Splashing Hands is a style of Chinese gung fu.  www.littlenineheaven.com shows the Sifu James McNeil, who learned from Master Haumea Lefiti.  The system is very effective and has internal aspects in it.  If you want to learn Splashing Hands, I strongly suggest finding a teacher and using the video as a reference and/or guide.  Sifu James McNeil is my teacher and is an amazing martial artist.  Don't base the system or the teacher off of these videos.


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## Touch Of Death

This has little to do with your question, but a good splashing hands demo, is done by one of the ghosts in the movie, "Big Trouble In Little China"
Sean


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## Black Tiger Fist

keith1892 said:
			
		

> No, Splashing Hands is a style of Chinese gung fu. www.littlenineheaven.com shows the Sifu James McNeil, who learned from Master Haumea Lefiti. The system is very effective and has internal aspects in it. If you want to learn Splashing Hands, I strongly suggest finding a teacher and using the video as a reference and/or guide. Sifu James McNeil is my teacher and is an amazing martial artist. Don't base the system or the teacher off of these videos.


Not to bust your bubble or diss your sifu in anyway ,but "Splashing Hands" is not a traditional chinese martial art. It is a creation of Mc Neil's or his sifu. This does not mean it's not/is effective though.

Many have done this learned a number of techniques and then labled it with their own name. I really don't know much about Mc Neil ,but it seems noone knows much about Mc Neil except those that buy his books and are students of his or within his lineage.

This is from the website you posted in your thread.



> Later in Taiwan he learned 'Splashing Hands' from a famous general. Before he left Taiwan he asked his teacher where he could finish his training in Splashing Hands. His teacher gave him a letter to give to Master Ark Yuey Wong asking him to accept Tiny as his student. At first Master Wong refused claiming he knew nothing of the style. However, with Tiny's persistence he was finally accepted.


Ark Wong Yuey is known for many styles ,but i've never heard of him having any knowledge or anything to do with "Splashing Hands" ,plus he's a name that comes up alot from the mouths of many fruads within the CMA community.

Ark Wong Yuey is a name that brings many a TCMA stylist a strong since of hatred ,because it is said he taught anything to anyone for a price. So many ppl claim him as their teacher even those that teach nothing but kenpo/kempo hybrids.

I'm not saying that Mc Neil is a fake or fruad because i don't know him ,but he's surely a secretive person.

jeff


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## Tony

I believe this Art was taught to the Emporer's bodyguards.


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## Black Tiger Fist

Tony said:
			
		

> I believe this Art was taught to the Emporer's bodyguards.


Sadly, just about every style claims that samething.

Ok here's some new info Splashing Hands does exist ,but it's not a style like Mc Neil claims. It's a ging or type of power generation.

I still think it's something that Mc Neil or his sifu is trying to claim though ,as a style.

jeff


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## wude108

Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> Sadly, just about every style claims that samething.
> 
> Ok here's some new info Splashing Hands does exist ,but it's not a style like Mc Neil claims. It's a ging or type of power generation.
> 
> I still think it's something that Mc Neil or his sifu is trying to claim though ,as a style.
> 
> jeff


whats up jeff? splashing hands is a sub system of the southern five animal/family system...  and regarding some other info posted, master lefiti learned the system in taiwan from a retired general who gave him a introduction letter to gm wong..  and i am told by my teacher that gm wong taught the system to 2 main people sifu lefiti and his grandson. hope that helps....

peace,

matt


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## punisher73

I copied this from a reply that Dr. Chapel (sorry but can't get the accent over the 'e') over from the kenpo forum here.  This might explain why Ark Wong is associated alot with kenpo and why "splashing hands" seems alot like kenpo in appearance.

---------------------------------------------------
Although GM Wong was the acknowledged head of Five Animal Qung fu, he also was the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America. It is here where the legendary Haumea &#8220;Tiny&#8221; Lefiti landed with a letter from his original teacher when he was discharged from the Marine Corp. &#8220;Tiny&#8221; was older than Parker but they shared Polynesian Roots and a military kinship because he too had served in the coast guard. Parker however was lucky enough to be stationed in Hawaii which allowed him to continue training with Chow and receive his black belt in Kenpo, Jiu-jitsu, and karate-do while still in the military.

The Chinese influences are great in many areas, from a number of sources. The earlier foray into Chinese Arts saw Ed Parker Sr. beginning to emulate in many ways his Samoan Senior at Ark Wong&#8217;s. Having a similar body build made Parker very comfortable with the explosive handwork of &#8220;Splashing Hands&#8221; he saw with &#8220;Tiny.&#8221; To put it mildly, &#8220;Tiny&#8221; was a monster who had himself, a great deal of influence on martial artists in Southern California. Consider him a bigger, stronger and yes, faster Ed Parker and you have &#8220;Tiny&#8221; at that stage of Parker&#8217;s development. Ultimately, &#8220;Tiny&#8221; left to join Ed Parker&#8217;s black belt Tino Tuiolosega in the formation of the original &#8220;Lima Lama&#8221; organization at Parker&#8217;s suggestion. This influenced others like the late Sal Esquivel to spend time at Ark Wong&#8217;s as well. Danny Inosanto also was no stranger to Ark Wong&#8217;s school before leaving to be with Parker, before going on the road once again with Bruce Lee and also studying Kali and Silat.

Make no mistake. Ed Parker was a student of Ark Wong, and although he spent time with many Chinese Masters, Ark Wong was probably the biggest Chinese influence with Five Animal and Splashing Hands. Even more than his relationships with James (Wing) Woo, or Lau Bun who was his primary Hung Gar influence. 

----------------------------------

It doesn't give the history of splashing hands, but it explains where the kenpo connection comes in to play.


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## Blending Hand

If you are looking for some information about "Splashing Hands," try researching Mok Ga.  I believe that is the original name of the system studied by Mr. Lefiti.  I had the opportunity to attend the Christmas party at Sifu Douglas Wong's school (White Lotus) a year, or 2 ago.  At the party the students gave a demo of Mok Ga "Splashing Hands."  Sifu D. Wong was a first generation student of Ark Wong, as well as Mr. Lefiti (his portrait is proudly posted on the wall with his additional masters).  The demo was great, like everything that comes out of Sifu D. Wong's kwoon.  This is one of the systems that is taught at the school.  The excessive slapping is a unique characteristic of the system that is also strikingly similar to Mr. Parker's American Kenpo.  My take on it is that it ensures relaxation while striking/blocking/checking.  A "whipping torque" is what I use to describe the blocks and strikes of the art (hence the Kenpo saying that, "Strikes are the intermissions of relaxation.")  Very powerful, sometimes difficult method of execution, since relaxation during combat is not a natural reaction.  This makes Mr. Chapel's earlier post make even more sense about the Parker(Kenpo)/Lefiti(Splashing Hands) connection.  I am convinced of it!  Mr. Chapel is a great source of knowledge on this topic, being that he was around Ark Wong's school in L.A. Chinatown for some time. In addition, Mr. Chapel was the only person to respond to my post on a kenpo forum a while back, in regards to Mr. Lefiti.  This is a part of EPAK history that many are not aware of.  There is definitely a connection there somewhere!  Hopefully, he can add something to this.  As far as the name "Splashing Hands," I am not sure of its origin, or if it was made up over the years.  I hope this helps you out.  One more observation that I have made is that Aside from Kenpoists, Lima Lama practioners exhibit these same slapping characteristics as well.  Some of their techniques I have seen seem even softer, in nature, than some Kenpo techniques.  As we know, Mr. Lefiti was one of the founders of the Lima Lama system.  Who knows??  Just observations!!! 

Ever since I saw an old 8mm (black n white, no sound) 3-4 minute video, actually it was copied onto beta (yeah, remeber beta) of Mr. Lefiti I have been somewhat on a quest to find out more about him.  Mr. Chapel's description of him was right on.  Simply, awesome!  I really do hope it helps you out.  

Also, a quick side note:  In regard to my screen name "Blending Hand." It is not associated with Splashing Hands.  I have never studied this particular system.  It basically refers to parries, or the passive, aggressive motion of redirecting an attack.  Just FYI

Take care, 
Jay Brett


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## Darksoul

-Blending Hand, WELCOME to Martial Talk!!! I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this particular thread, but wanted to say hello. Need to get something going here in the Chinese forum, but I'm merely a beginner to Kung Fu. Must think of new topics. Anyways, welcome again!!

A---)


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## Blending Hand

Thanks for the nice welcome!  Been reading for awhile and thought I would jump right on in.  Look forward to talking in the future.

Jay


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Interesting addendum to this. While watching some footage of Mr. Parker in the old days, one can see a transition from a rigid, robotic Japanese influence, to a whipping, circular and semi-circular influence that took place over a couple of years (before/after). Mr. Chapel commented that the difference was Mr. Parkers training in Splashing Hands. His movements from Hawaii were closer to the Japanese pre- his exposure to A. Y. Wong, but had become faster and more fluid "rapid-fire" after his exposure to Mr. Wong and Mr. Lefiti.

There are still a few alive who were there, and part of it as it unfolded. I hope we will be able to successfully preserve their recollections for posterity's sake.

Dave


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## wude108

whats up all, my sifu has studied splashing hands for a while now and has done a lot of research on this subject and could not find anything about mok gar other than douglas wongs info... that doesnt mean it isnt but if you look at mok gar there are a lot of kicks that do not conform to the theory used in splashing hands.. also my sifu has contacted gm wongs grandson in the past regarding this system and he mentioned nothing about mok gar...  there are also animal forms to this system but we cant find anyone who still practices or learned them because of master lefiti's death..  do you have a copy of that 8mm??? personally i love the system....



peace,

wude


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## wude108

sorry but i forgot to mention that i believe master lefiti's family were and still are lima lama???  ok i think thats all........


peace


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## keith1892

Yes Sifu McNeil is a highly secretive person.  This system was called "Splashing Hands" b/c it is actually called San Soo, which is a general term that refers to street fighting.  This title was given to it to distinguish it from other arts.  It is in fact a system that was developed at the shaolin temple in the late 1700s.  Nothing is made up of it and is an effective system.  For those who want to know or are interested, the animal forms are still preserved among few.   Master Ark Yuey Wong kept his knowledge of the art as a secret for he wanted only those who thought were worthy to learn it.


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## warriorofheaven

Greetings,
I am Richard Baron the instructor of the Little Nine Heaven Chicago Branch.  My website http://www.kungfupower.com/.  I will take the time to answer your questions as long as they are respectful.  You can email them to me at warriorofheaven1@aol.com I will email you a response and you can choose to post it if you wish.  My Kung Fu brother Chris Lomas in England deals with pretty much the same set of questions we are getting from this site at this link. 
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51159&page=3&pp=15&highlight=splashing+hands  He does a good job of explaining, so I will not repeat those answers, but I may clarify them if you dont understand something.  I will be happy to answer any other questions.  You can also get information in the numerous articles written about Little Nine Heaven and the various systems of Kung Fu we instruct at http://www.littlenineheaven.com/articles.html  L9H is also featured in the current May and June 2006 issue of Inside Kung Fu Magazine.  You can also tell by the depth and breathe, of the articles that there is plenty more evidence regarding the back ground of our systems.   We also have schools literally all over the world.  
http://www.littlenineheaven.com/schools.html
As well as quite a bit of positive feedback.
http://www.littlenineheaven.com/feedback.html

Splashing Hands Questions.    

First take a look at what system we are discussing.  This is some text from my website to help fill in some blanks about what we are discussing.  


Splashing Hands Kung Fu:
Splashing Hands Kung Fu is an extremely practical, no-nonsense, street-effective fighting system. It combines jabs, punches, elbows, hammer-fists, chops and finger pokes, thrown with blinding, machine gun-like rapidity, along with quick, shuffling footwork, and low-focused straight leg kicks. It prepares the fighter physically and mentally to engage any combat or tactical situation with or without weapons. You will learn that a fight begins as soon as the opponent begins fighting you in his or her mind, and as soon as this is expressed, you must explode into action. Splashing Hands is an infighting system. Working close to the opponent is of paramount concern. Double blocks, single blocks and strikes, along with sophisticated rolling hands techniques  simultaneously defensive and offensive, draw the opponent into an attack and pull him dangerously off balance. Once the opponent goes down, the fighter continues to stick to him, keeping up the attack until the opponent has been subdued. Splashing Hands was developed in the early 1700s at the Shaolin Temple of Northern China. Historically, it was only taught to a few students: the monks in charge of guarding the temple gates. But even after it was introduced to fighters not associated with the Shaolin Temple, it never became a widely-practiced art. Those who knew the effectiveness of the system were reluctant to share their knowledge with others. However, the style was taken to Taiwan where a former nationalist army General Wong taught a few selected students, among which was Haumea F. Lefiti. 
The Lineage: 
Splashing Hands was introduced to the United States by Haumea F. Lefiti (1930  1973). Know as Tiny to his Friends, the towering over 6 foot Samoan was a great teacher of the martial arts. In his early 20's, he joined the US Marine Corps during the Korean War, and fought for his country. At one time when attacked by the communists he was separated from their troupe. Tiny roamed the hills trying to find his group. It was 80 days before he was reunited with the American troops. During the 80 days, he survived on plants and wild life, with nothing to drink except snow water. He was also active in many battles and fought to attain 'Pork Chop Hill.' He received many medals, including a silver star for valor. Tiny expected his students to be honest, patriotic, and to have respect and love for all people. He always stressed that the strong should always help the weak, that one should always be modest about one's abilities, and never be the one to start a fight, but also never to run. When he returned to the United States from Taiwan Tiny continued to train with Master Ark Yuey Wong. http://www.littlenineheaven.com/spteacher.html
http://www.kungfu5family.com/  Ark Yuey Wong Website.

Lao Tzu James W. McNeil was one of Tinys top students, and is now the lineage holder of the Splashing Hands System. Lao Tzu James W. McNeil has been learning, living and teaching the inner mysteries and secrets of the traditional, internal kung-fu arts for forty years. In the course of history, knowledge like his was normally reserved for the elite few within the closed circles of the oriental Taoist societies. Until McNeil came on the scene, it was unheard of for any outsider, let alone a white American, to be accepted as a student by the great martial art Masters of China and Taiwan. McNeil has had the rare privilege to study with such greats as Master Hsu Hong-Chi, The Man With the Magic Hands' (Hsing-I & healing arts, Sifu Chi Chen-Yen (Tzu Men-Chuan -the rare and deadly art of Poison Fingers'), Hsu Ting-Ming (Chinese psychic healing), Master Pan Wing-Chow (original Chen style Tai-Chi) and perhaps the greatest of them all, the living legend, Master Chiao Chang-Hung (Little Nine Heaven Kung-fu, Shih-Shui, Pa-Kua, and Taoist mediation). Sifu Richard Baron is one of Lao Tzu James W. McNeils top students.
http://www.littlenineheaven.com/sifumcneil.html Information on Lao Tzu James W. McNeil.   He trains every day, his normal training day is at least four hours or more of practice alone, not counting anytime teaching.  He has been able to do many things in his training that I have never seen any other martial artist do.  Like break bricks with a poke from his finger tips, drill a hole through a brick with his finger, cause the Chi and blood to go into his hands causing them swell for use in both fighting and Chinese healing, and many other interesting and amazing feats of kung fu.  You can actual see him doing these things in his iron hand video.  He is also lightning fast, and the lineage holder of a number of systems of martial arts.  I have been training with him for many years, and I can vouch for his integrity and his desire to help his students achieve success in their lives and their Kung Fu.  
About Me www.kungfupower.com 
Sifu Richard Baron is the founder and instructor of the Chicago branch of the Little Nine Heaven Internal Kung Fu School. He studied a variety of martial arts since 1988, since 1997 he has been training with Lao Tzu James McNeil, learning some of the higher levels of martial arts including Hsing-I, Splashing Hands, Ba Kua, Chen Tai Chi Shih-Shui, Tzu Men Chuan, Iron Hand Taoist Meditation, and a variety of other martial arts and skills. Sifu Richard Baron has taught more than a thousand students Splashing Hands Kung Fu. 

Some video of Splashing Hands Kung Fu


 http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/syllabus3/index.html  Make sure you observe both the simple and long techniques.  The simple ones actually tell a person more about the style than the long forms.  Also the speed of the system is slowed down for the clip it is actually much faster.  You can see that the Splashing Hands system is completely unique, not a hybrid of Kempo or any other art.  You can also refer to my kung fu brothers comments here about that as well.  As far as a relationship to Kempo to the Splashing Hands system, it is possible the origins of Kempo are found in the Splashing Hands system considering that Ed Parker was one of the students ArkYuey Wong and Master Lefiti.  I have never heard my teacher say anything about Ed Parker or Kempo for that matter.  Two of my school brothers are masters of Kempo, that in the past ran and owned Kempo schools and both suggested that the origins of Kempo may be found in Splashing Hands not the other way around.  Again go look at the system and see for yourself.  Doesnt look like anything close to Kempo to me.  I am not however a martial arts historian and am not making this claim about Kempo's origins, although I have seen evidence to prove some of that, if some one can prove this theory that would be interesting to some of those reading this.   
 http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51159&page=3&pp=15&highlight=splashing+hands . 


Any further questions email them to me.  If you are interested in becoming a student or checking out the school feel free to call or email.  The school I run is small focusing on small classes 3-10 people, intensive classes, and private lesson.  Every one receives lots of personal attention and the focus of classes is fighting for life and death situations (combat), and for improving health.  I hope you have found this information helpful in your search for quality instruction.   

Regards

Richard Baron


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## 7starmantis

Welcome to MartialTalk Mr. Baron. Its good to have you here. If you have any questions please feel free to ask. There have been lots of questions about your style of kung fu so its good to have you hear to answer them.

MT Super Mod
7starmantis
Adam C


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## tshadowchaser

As a member who reads posts and askes question once in a while i wnt to say
warriorofheaven, first let me say welcome to martial talk
next let me say that the statement 





> Any further questions email them to me


  bothers me. If you are not willing to answere questions except by email why bother posting here in the first place except to promote yourslef and your school


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## warriorofheaven

There have been a lot of questions about Splashing Hands Kung Fu.  I would like to put those questions to rest.  I have in my previous post given people the tools to go find out more if they are not satisfied with the answers I have posted.  
I hope people will visit my website at www.kungfupower.com and join the many Little Nine Heaven Internal Kung Fu Schools located throughout the world.  I welcome students or those currious about the systems we instruct to come try out a class at my school and see for yourself the quality of the art, the instruction, and combat effectiveness of our systems.


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## warriorofheaven

I will try to keep up with the posts here at this site, but there are at least 6 other sites I am trying to keep up with as well.  Emailing me martial arts quetions makes it easier for me to respond more quickly, and know where to post the response, and who I am talking too.  I also believe that training, teaching, and spending less time in front of the computer is a better lifestyle.  My time for this is limited.  I apologize for any inconvience.  Thank You for your patience with that.


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## merc

Hope this will shed a little light on the system of splashing hands, though I do not recall the system being called by the term "splashing hands" originally Sifu Haumea Lefiti, to whom I was a student for about 2 years in the early 70's, the school went by the name Haumea Lefiti Kung Fu at least that's what was posted on the front of the school in Huntington park, California which was rather small in comparison to a Hopkido Dojo across the street run by Bon Soo Han. I do recall that painted on one of the inside walls was a Lima Lama School emblem and that they had a business relationship with a Lima Lama School in the L.A. area and would gather every year to compete in Ed Parkers Long Beach Internationals. I remember that the system was highly influenced by Polynesian tradition and they also gave demonstrations in fire dance. One thing to consider is that a requirement for first degree black belt was to perform a form called "Small Cross Pattern". This form is characteristic of the Choy Li Fut system and I believe it to be one of the original sets in Choy Li Fut. I have seen both Lima Lama and Choy Li Fut and both have similarities to Haumea Lefiti Kung Fu. This I can tell you with all honesty Haumea Lefiti Kung Fu or Splashing Hands as you may want to call it is one of the most effective and devistating systems of self defense I have seen. It is very direct and very effective when used offensively on the inside of your opponent. There are untold questions about Sifu Lefiti and his untimely death that remain a secret that deal with some questionable health hazards when performing some technique from this particular art and soon after his death the school closed. I hope this helps restore some respect and answers your question as to weather splashing hands is an art. I would like to believe that splashing hands does exist and probably has Shaolin influence but Haumea Lefiti Kung Fu is and was a eclectic form of self defense.


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## merc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Interesting addendum to this. While watching some footage of Mr. Parker in the old days, one can see a transition from a rigid, robotic Japanese influence, to a whipping, circular and semi-circular influence that took place over a couple of years (before/after). Mr. Chapel commented that the difference was Mr. Parkers training in Splashing Hands. His movements from Hawaii were closer to the Japanese pre- his exposure to A. Y. Wong, but had become faster and more fluid "rapid-fire" after his exposure to Mr. Wong and Mr. Lefiti.
> 
> There are still a few alive who were there, and part of it as it unfolded. I hope we will be able to successfully preserve their recollections for posterity's sake.
> 
> Dave


Yes I was there back in early 70's and was a student of both Sifu Haumea Lefiti and Sifu Wong, and can tell you that it was Harder back then " Old School" No term like "splashing hands" was ever used and the style was Haumea Lefiti Kung Fu.


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## chris lomas

Hi everyone. This is my first post I am Chris Lomas (www.splashinghands.com) and teach in Manchester UK. Its nice ot see Splashing Hands discussed as I find it to be a fantastic fighting art.

Hi Merc its nice to hear about people who trainined under Huame. Yes he did advertise as Lefiti's Kung Fu (or method of self defence) as did his students when they first opened schools shortly after his death. However he when asked about the origins of the style he would say it was called splashing hands. Still what's in a name:idunno: 

He was associated with Lima Lama when it acted as an association (originally I believe it wasn't a style but a group of martial artists sharing information under the guidence of Tino - Tiny's cousin(?) hence when it became a style the splashing hands influence was still there (most pronounced in the hand work, I think). 

The full system of Splashing Hands consists of fundermental moves (on the square, line drills), 30 basic patterns (sections, browns, advances) Nine Forms (four Corners, Advances Linked, Short Cross, Combination, Butterfly, Dragon, Tiger, Snake and Crane). 

IMO the fundermentals and 30 basic patterns and first two forms were from the general in Taiwan (who refered to his art as Splashing Hands - Taiwanese GM Chaio Chang Hung also recognised the style as such on a visit to Laoshi's school in 1984, having known Huame's first teacher). 

After that the forms show more of Ark Wong's influence (although the moves are basically all the same just with slight variations to hightligh different applications/varations), and may have been Arks method of teaching (Ie altering his southern style forms to a northern style framework).

Merc, I work very hard at maintaing levels of training, my students never stop warm-up drilling until the school is thick with sweat and at least 5,000-10,000 basic techiques have been performed. It try to model my schools training as closely as possibly to Tiny's - it has cost me many students. They are also expected to maintain rigourous personal practice.

My teacher (laoshi McNeil) has given me permission to film instructional DVDs of the animal forms (I have done three, two to go before realise). These were post-black sash forms. Whilst my presenting skill is very much in the 'Bunny in the car light' mode , the forms are very good and rich in fighting techinques.

PS Hi Rich, hope your well.


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## merc

Yes I remember the rigerous training methods of the Haumea's school and the countless repetitions to gain perfection in some what simple applied technique.  As to my comment that it was different back then, old school, that it was much harder, I remember that Tiny's method of teaching was some what brutal and a slow learner was quickly punished by a bamboo strike to the top of his head or a famous stiff kick between his legs that sent him gasping for breath in the corner of the room.  There was rumor that he would take a newly ranked black belt out on a drinking binge before giving him his certificate and would quickly get him drunk with a pre-planned attack by other black belts that he was not in relation to just to test his ability to defend himself.  You can see how this method of instruction can lead to liability suits and ultimately a schools closure.  This is what I meant by ther term old school back in the late 60's and early 70's in the streets of L.A.  Many of the schools were filled with street wise kids that knew already how to defend themselves and were looking for a mentor.  It was a time of hard knocks and racism where Hispanics took to Lima Lama and Africian Americans formed BKF and Ed Parkers International was some what reserved for Parker students.  What makes Haumea Lefiti's style so effective is the simplicity of what is taught and the overkill of repetition to gain long term memory retrieval "It is only by being lost in ones technique that one can learn the art of TRANSITION."  It is nice to hear that the art is still being taught the old way and is so complete in Haumea's honor.

Your friend,

Merc


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## chris lomas

Merc,
I love hearing any recollections about Tiny, the school etc- thank you.
Similar drinking binge thing happened in my teachers case, only it was some old streetfighter (he had no idea it was going to happen) and he had to fight him in the backroom of a pub- he 'failed' (ouch) the first time and had to retake some two years later against the same guy, he says he still remembers the feeling when that guy entered the room the second time 

I have been researching for a book on the style, as I worry about the complete method being lost - some time I'd love to chat/pm you for your recollections if that would be okay?
Best respects 
Chris


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## Jagdish

I would like to ask if the self slapping to one's body has any negative side effect to ones health.If so then which part of the body should be avoided to be slapped?

Yours,

Jagdish


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## merc

I have practiced many of the sets and combinations for many years just the way they were shown to me by sifu Lefiti and have not suffered any long term effects from striking my body other than an occasional unwelcomed welt.  Though, I have shown these techniques to very few of my students and because I have not been in contact with anyone that knows this system or its techniques other than myself, I cannot say that there has been any negative health effects.  Other systems like Lima Lama or Choy Li Fut have similar technique that strike their upper body and I have not heard of any long term negative effects by doing so.  Hope this helps.


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## chris lomas

Yes, I think so long as you stirke the areas in the forms (Ie. Shoulder, abdomen, occasional forearms) it is fine. I have never seen anyone damage themselves (apart from superficial bruising when they first start training hard). However slapping other places (over the heart lungs, liver spleen etc) could be harmful so make sure you learn a good method from a good teacher.
 My teacher - echoing Merc's experience - also has kept up hard practise and is by far the healthiest person I have ever seen (without even taking into account his age!). In fact from a TCM view the stimulation of the dantien and next to the lung channel could be seen as very beneficial.
(PS Merc have you seen much Tombei? Some lineages of it seem to have very similar handwork, I would be interested in oyur opinion)


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## Jagdish

Gentlemen:

Thanks for both of your answers.

Yours,

Jagdish


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## Jagdish

Nobody has mentioned the slapping to the biceps. Does it have any use as a slapping surface?

Yours,
Jagdish


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## merc

Yes, let me add to this a little more in detail, if a practitioner maintains contact with the upper shoulder area and upper abdominal off the central conception line, he or she should be fine without having any negative effects.   There are two places to avoid when making contact, 1) is on the chest below the collar bone and in the crease of the arm.  There are two dominent meridians that lie in this area, one is related to lung and the other is related to pericardium.  Pericardium is the element of fire and lung is the element of metal.  Since fire melts metal in the cycle of destruction it is possible to activate these two points negatively.  Especially after one has attained a sense of heavy hands that add to the problem.  2) The other area is directly over your heart and is in line with conception 17.  This is an energy point and lies very close to kidney 23.  These two points can also be activated by precise striking in this area and should be avoided at all times.  If you make contact on the shoulder area above the collar line or on the abdominal area off your center line, you should be fine.  As for striking the biceps, I do not.

Chris, as for your question about Tombie, please give me more information on this, as I am in the dark.  As I stated before, Sifu's art was influenced somewhat by Polynesian tradition.  That's all I can say.  If one is determined to find the roots of any system, there are blue prints which don't change much over the years.  The authenticity of any system can be judged by its blue prints.  One is in its footwork, sometimes charted out in patterns that have not changed too much from its creator, other factors to consider are do the strikes in the sets and forms work with meridian (vital press) striking?  Still others can be based upon research of its creator or founder going back into the persons life history  and last and most important is that I feel research into weapons originally used in any system can show authenticity to its original origin.  Hopes this helps the both of you.

Peace, your friend Merc.


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## 7starmantis

What exactly is the application to slapping your body as far as fighting goes?

7sm


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

7starmantis said:
			
		

> What exactly is the application to slapping your body as far as fighting goes?
> 
> 7sm


 
In a kenpo word: Rebounding. Microseconds matter in combat. Rather than striking a "1" strike (in FMA terms) and returning to a chamber before sending out the next strike, letting the one carry through under it's own momentum until it contacts some part of your own body allows you to re-start into a new direction with a new strike in about 1/4 the time involved with re-chambering the strike for the next hit. Like skipping stones off the waters surface....the time the stone is in flight, it's a natural weapon hitting an opponent, and passing through the target, instead of stopping on it. Skipping off the water at an angle that sends it back into motion is the self-slap. Up and away into the next leap is the next strike, incidently on its way to the next hit.

This is one of the main ways it's been used in advanced kenpo (Mr. Parker was also a student of Mr. Wong, and a contemporary of Mr. Lefiti). Unfortunately, this application of it has been lost by most kenpoists, who now slap themnselves at inappotoriate times, in an attempt to mimic Mr. Parker. Withouth the context of meaning, the content becomes meaningless. Watching the old man in blazing away at his top speed, you could see and feel and hear the power & speed that resulted from this body-blitz approach to motion. Ah, well. Whaddya gonna do.

Regards,

Dave

PS - This is just based on my own, very likely inadequate understanding of the contributions made by splashing hands into kenpo. I'm basing it on the radical differences in Mr. Parkers own movements, pre- and post- SH training. Particulalry, what he called the gasseous phase of movement, which didn't really exist before he implemented these ideas into Chinese kenpo.


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## chris lomas

exactly, well put. You can use 7 star systems strike of the fist-forearm for a similar purpose, like a yielding pak sau (or can be used with a damaging 'bounce' of the attackers limb). The incorporated 'Plum Blossom' sets (I think there are four in some lineages of 7*) show a similar 'slipping' usage.
The slapping also helps define the last point you can cross yourself, avoiding trapping or weaking striking that over crossing causes. It helps give a shock of ging on the moment of striking, helps condtion and is vary confusing to an attacker.
Merc, I meant some of the tombei I have seen has variation of the self slapping, even identical to the basic jab punch. Although the footwork is very different and the systems differ greatly. Also Zimen chuan's  (word/poison finger boxing) three gate training is very similar in principle as a method of teaching heavy relaxed whipping bounce.
Highest respects,
Chris


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## merc

Yes my hat is off to the both of you.  This is a very good explaination of why slaping hands "respectively" is so effective, as it all comes down to speed.  Principle in point "*Opportunity for success lies within six seconds* *or less*" and I have based all effective martial technique upon this exclusive principle.  Chris, yes you are right, three gates training is very similar, but without the rigerous training that Sifu required.  I feel that any good technique applied with constant drilling developes ease of transition and this ultimately developes ease of movement and enlightenment of speed.  This combined with a solid and balanced foot pattern ultimately builds devesitating power thus (jing).  Chris, on a personal note, what principles do you find of utmost importance in your instruction of splashing hands?


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## chris lomas

Interesting question. In terms of learning the skill, lots of shuffle drills in the square to teach basic technique linkage, foot and hand connection and centredness, with the spine as an axle. Then taking that centredness into line drills (close the gap etc) before learning the browns. Once the brown are learnt they must do them 1-10 in fifteen seconds or less in any order (1-10, 10-1, evens up odds down etc), and we start putting together complex combinations - as you say mastering transistion. Over time forms are incorporated (but not emphasised) and time limits given to be able to perform them (correctly) in before progressing.
Alongside all of this we practise simple reacion drills (blocking on the shuffle, change, reverse shuffle etc) basic apps for the browns etc. But most importantly always with several options from the attacker so the student remains sensitive and changable in every drill, never a factory machine. We also use the browns sensitivity drills for this. We also greatly stress being attacked in a non stop -street type of way, using line drills. Eventually the attacker wears gloves and a headguard and maintains a contiual street attack until the defender strikes them several times with good enough power and accuracy that without the guard they would have dropped (or at least left good openeings). I feel only sparring cause the subconsious assumption that the other guy will be interested in blocking you (as they spar against brother Martial artists), whereas most streetfighters do not attempt to block only strike and if you cant defend a continual powerful attack at the same time as striking then you will either end up punching whilst punched or (worse) simple being defensive and having no chance of winning.
High repetition causes the body to find the easiest way, so I always stress that they must go beyond the shoulder ache and calf pains so the body finds new, more effieicent methods. Stopping halfway will only reinforce habitual patterns. However for this to work they must also drill "as if fighting their worst enemy, when fighting their worst enemy feel as if at home practising". That way the motion is linked subconsiously to fighting (for it to come out) and means that people extend properly etc.
In fighting applications we still stress the theories "true not true" "Touch go kiss" and "punch and punch". When I first heard these theories I thought they were too simple to be worthwhile, yet now I greatly value them as great truisms of streetfighting, yet seem very alien to people with sport-influence background.
Merc, what drills do you maintain? Have you discovered any good adaptions? What other styles do you practice/teach? do you find they mix well? Also if you have any stories, or things you would like to say in the book I am writing, I would love to hear them (if you want to message me you name I will, of course, attribute them to you) as I am trying to put peoples experiences in to stop it being dry - unfortunately there are not that many sources who had contact with Huame still findable.

Highest respects,
Chris


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## 7starmantis

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> In a kenpo word: Rebounding. Microseconds matter in combat. Rather than striking a "1" strike (in FMA terms) and returning to a chamber before sending out the next strike, letting the one carry through under it's own momentum until it contacts some part of your own body allows you to re-start into a new direction with a new strike in about 1/4 the time involved with re-chambering the strike for the next hit. Like skipping stones off the waters surface....the time the stone is in flight, it's a natural weapon hitting an opponent, and passing through the target, instead of stopping on it. Skipping off the water at an angle that sends it back into motion is the self-slap. Up and away into the next leap is the next strike, incidently on its way to the next hit.


 Ok, I may just be a little daft, but I'm not sure I understand your point here. I mean I understand letting your attack carry through. We do that alot in mantis, and I understnad grabbing the hand, or hitting the hand with a strike or kick, we use that as well. However, it seems that striking the body with the opposite hand is a wasted movement no? It ties up both hands while you may need the other hand to block or attack. Slapping your own chest while striking takes away part of your defense or guard. Also, slapping a moving stirke not only removes power from it but changes its direction (even if minimally). How do you combat these issues while using the slapping technique? I mean, I'm not suggesting chambering yoru attacks at all (I am of course a mantis person) but applying a slap (force) to your attack removes needed precision in my opinion and occupies both hands while only utilizing one. Voluntarily adding a changing point to a strike would be a bad habit to get into in drills no? Or is this something done in forms and drills that is not used in application or fighting?

I guess I understand your explination as far as "rebounding" but that dose not apply to slapping ones own chest with one hand while striking with the other does it?

7sm


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Ok, I may just be a little daft, but I'm not sure I understand your point here. I mean I understand letting your attack carry through. We do that alot in mantis, and I understnad grabbing the hand, or hitting the hand with a strike or kick, we use that as well. However, it seems that striking the body with the opposite hand is a wasted movement no? It ties up both hands while you may need the other hand to block or attack. Slapping your own chest while striking takes away part of your defense or guard. Also, slapping a moving stirke not only removes power from it but changes its direction (even if minimally). How do you combat these issues while using the slapping technique? I mean, I'm not suggesting chambering yoru attacks at all (I am of course a mantis person) but applying a slap (force) to your attack removes needed precision in my opinion and occupies both hands while only utilizing one. Voluntarily adding a changing point to a strike would be a bad habit to get into in drills no? Or is this something done in forms and drills that is not used in application or fighting?
> 
> I guess I understand your explination as far as "rebounding" but that dose not apply to slapping ones own chest with one hand while striking with the other does it?
> 
> 7sm


 
To start, I don't advocate self-slapping for self-slapping's sake. We don't just Kong thump ourselves. The slap checks and proprioceptive self-cues -- properly used -- contact self at specific points in movement. Unfortunately, this application in kenpo was under-represented in the main, and is largley ignored or lost. But not completely.

The functions are both biomechanical, and proprioceptive, and are placed and timed to accentuate an action, rather than stunt it. As a study, like I metioned, most kenpo folk don't do it well...unless, by chance, they have cross-trained in a kung-fu system that includes similar body checking mechanisms. Most attempt to mimic Mr. Parkers slapping, and without the information about how and why, create mis-steps. Like slapping the chest when it don't apply.

An example: In kenpo is a technique called 5 swords. It is a "recent" development over an older "7 swords". In newer versions, there this whole bending the guy over thing. I mention this so that kenpo readers will know that I'm not holding to the bending-over version, but rather to a peppering-the-guy version.

In it, there is a sequence of movements in about the middle...right foot forward stance: Right vertical punch (delivered low, like an uppercut), followed by a left outward handsword to the high line with the rear hand, followed by a right inward handsword to the same area with the lead hand. The uppercut is supposed to be a power move. The right inward handsword is supposed to be a power move. The left outward handsword, sandwiched in the middle, is a short move to help gauge the distance and location of the target for the right inward chop. Delivered with chambering, they would be three distinct movements, with the hands either chambered at the hip as in karate, or held up in checks as in chinese systems.  

A biomechanics side track: For each joint, the body has some directions it likes to move, and some it ain't so fond of. Joint mobility is typically allowed degrees of freedom in one plane, but limited freedom in another. Consider the knee: Great flexion/extension, not so great to have that same amount of joint surface translation in the side-to-side direction. To prevent or limit movement in the medial-lateral plane, MCL and LCL ligaments act as "check ligaments", checking the side to side movement.  Now, if there is a consciously controlled movement in the directions allowed by the joint, and the movement is ballistic and fast (such as throwing a front snap kick), the body will avoid subluxation or injury to the joint by neurologically inhibiting that action...i.e,  slowing it down before it gets too far. This happens unconsciously, and reflexively, as the instability near the end of the range of motion is sensed in the receptors in the joint. In studies with "locking" knee braces with very minor plasticity at end range (tight springs, rather than locking hinges) subjects kicked harder (soccer sports physio experiment, with a psi measure-thingy on the ball/target) when the knee had an artificially-induced stopping point, then when the athlete had to stop the forward momentum of the kick themselves.  So, let's go back to the 5-swords..

On the uppercut with the right hand, the body will beging slowing it down if it is unsure of the distance left to travel, or force expenditure upon reaching the target. So, as the right hand shoots to the blow, the left hand slaps the right biceps, just where it starts to ascend under the anterior deltoid. This acts as a temporary check ligament, giving the body a cue as to when it's good to stop, how far it's safe to proceed without damage. That uppercut can be thrown harder in close quarters then one without that slap-check. (try it on a heavy bag). Additionally, the left hand is now "proprioceptively primed". With the body always asking "where am I?", the more feedback we can give all the parts, the better job the brain can do of coordinating the movement and power of these parts in synchrony.

So, the left chop takes off to it's target from the right bicep check location, instead of from a hip or floating check. Try throwing left outward chops in each of the 2 following ways...1) hand "near" the right shoulder, but not touching, and note the reaction time from when you say "go" in your head, to when it hits, as well as how HARD it hits, then 2) just touch your right shoulder with one finger of that left hand, and note the reaction time.

Next...why the slap, then, if it only takes a touch? Any strong agonist activity also increases attenuation of the muscles in the antagonist. So, bringing your hand sharply to you, and thumping/pulling into your own body, also raises the tonicity, conversely lowering the level of activation for primary agonistic contraction, of the muscle that would fire it off in the opposite direction (a flexed bicep makes it easier to fast-fire a tricep then a flaccid arm). In short, the left chop can take off from the runway faster after slapping self. The appearence of the whole thing is that we just slapped ourselves on the chest (which some do, not knowing any differently), but what we really did was to target the upper humerus, to provide a temporary check ligament against the forward translation of the arm in forward flexion and elevation (the planes of movement the shoulder engages in with an uppercut).

The final inward handsword...prior to throwing it, it should move (as the short left chop goes out) up toward the head, with a couple fingers touching the crown of the skull, and the palm turned as if about to throw a baseball pitch. Why? good god...I've got a 150-page text here on the biomechanics of throwing that I couldn't possibly summarize in this post. Suffice it to say the mechanics of a 90-mile per hour pitch generate more force at the end of the stroke than a "point of origin to point of contact" inward chop that comes from a floating check positioned towards the front of the body.

The backnuckle delivered to the side of the body is another great example of common slap-check application, but rather than re-write it, I'll try to find the post and paste a link to the thread. In a nutshell, the slap is again placed at the front of the shoulder joint, to act as a check ligament. The body senses the increased stability, and no longer fearing posterior-to-anterior sprain, strain, or luxation of the gleno-humeral joint, no longer inhibits the backnuckle musculature, taking the speed and power out of it in mid-flight. It is allowed to complete it's path with full recruitment, because a safety mechanisms has been super-imposed over the proprioceptors and mechano-receptors of the joint.

So, the slaps, properly done, are placed to AID in the generation of power, and not inhibit it. But, again, you won't see this in a lot of the kenpo out there. While most do the 5-swords uppercut check at the biceps, that's about where it ends.There should be self-slaps accompanying almost every move in every technique and form, but with the absence of proper information about how and why, it's just noise and interference. Content, without context, lacks meaning.

Regards,

Dave


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## merc

Gentlemen, you are leaving out a crucial element to the Haumea system and that's the foot work that plays a crucial role in angle and range that is constantly changing from off center line to direct center line and back.  Sometimes simplistic moves such as turning on the ball of your front foot exposes other tools of availability and shifts the center of a good stylist forward sometimes redirecting his opponent off his attack line momentarily.  This leaves the opponent exposed or stunned.  In my system we call this the principle of delay and we work this theory to optimum effect.  Still as much as you may question its effectiveness, I have seen both Kempo and the Haumea system and by far the Haumea is truly unique.  Chris, I asked what principles you hold of importance to your system.  This is only because I feel that the principles of any system are by far the most valued and trusted imprints of a teachers legacy.  Unfortunately, Sifu Haumea left very few that I still remember.   This was not because the system was elementry in form but only that Sifu did not express too much about the complexity of the art.  Most students did not ask.  You have to understand this as Tiny's presence in the room was overpowering.  He was truly a warrior without question.  Though he had somewhat of a humorous side as well, I remember him most for wearing a heavy black gi, pant bottoms with sandals on his feet and multi-colored Hawaiian shirt when not on the floor teaching, of course.  I have since that time trained with some newer masters and unfortunately my style has become somewhat eclictic to say the least.  I have drawn a division between deceptive outside engagement and direct infighting, thus given up on all ability to master both left and right side equally, but you will be happy to know that over 30 years of exposure to self defense I still prefer Sifu Haumea's system when practicing infighting though I have used its techniques equally on the outside as well.  Our footwork pattern is a subset system from Bukti Negara Pentjak Silat shown to me by my mentor Guru Cliff Stewart.  This footwork pattern has very common similarities to Splashing Hands, but the box is somewhat intricute in design kind of like Splashing Hands on steroids, it can be somewhat complex in its design to a beginner but reveals itself through the principle of the clock, a principle used by the late Mr. Lee.  It's somewhat simplistic to understand as all our movement starts from Wu Chi or center stance (Earth).  Your opponent is always at 12 o'clock thus stepping forward on a direct center line to your opponent (closing the gap) would be 12:00 side stepping inward and to the side off center line and outside of his direct punch would be 9:00 respectivly.  Well I'm sure you feel this is pretty simple and yes we do try to keep it somewhat simplistic in nature, but the method use of this footwork pattern is to set up angle and direction of strike, you see guru was a student of Hideki Frazier who taught the Dillman theory of pressure point attack.  This component used with the footwork pattern of Silat allows us to document all technique by somewhat of a formula nature, example L/F to 9:00 at SI 7 at 3:00 R/F to 9:00 L/F to 1:00 GB31 to GB20 at 5:00.  We use other principles as well and many drills to build connection, rooting, and transition.  Above all principles we hold to in highest esteem they are the principle of range "No block can succeed without adequate range" and the principle of verticle alignment "that you must break the verticle alignment of your opponent before any throw can succeed".  These are just a few and it is very difficult to understand our system without a deeper discussion of its complexity and its simplicity but I will leave you with this, I know how quick the hands and feet of a good Haumea stylist can be.  We have adapted much use of Chi Sao in our system and it has allowed us to transcend our understanding of connection allowing our students to ultimately free flow and create themselves.  I have found one practice to be of great asset.  It is not uncommon for me to expect more transition understanding by allowing more advanced students to practice in a strobe light environment.  This allows them to actually see frame by frame the complexity of their movements and in time become even quicker than before.  Warning though a strobe light setting can be somewhat medically hazardous to some people, so experience with caution.

Your friend, sincerely Merc


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## chris lomas

That interesting. I have adapted push hands with the shuffle to try to teach flow. The points thing is over my head I'm afraid. How did you get the idea for the strobe light?
Best Chris


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## merc

Hello Chris,  hope you are well, yes we use push hands as well in our system used as a prepitory exercise for silk reeling and Chi Sao, silk reeling has hidden defensive blocks which are very similar to Wing Chun.  We have a signature block in our system called parry reinforcement which is given to all new students upon their first lesson.  I have seen similar technique to this done by other schools, and most call it cross blocking of some sort.  There is a video by James Ibrao made by Banana Graphics that shows this block, but he calls it the double pat and claims to be the creator, well it bears a very strong similarity to the Pa Kua transitional change hand movement.  The reason I mention this block is to give you a better understanding of angle and direction in our system and how important it is for documentation of technique, without it future students can dilute and lose essential elements of importance.  The block is broken down into front hand (Pac Sao) direction of contact is at 2-3:00.  Being that your front center line is always 12:00.  The guard hand is held at center chest line and reinforces the Pac Sao with a Tan Sao block to 12:00 or 1:00.  The movement is forward and off center line and is described as left foot (L/F) to 9:00 followed by the rear foot which is placed slightly behind the front foot described as (R/F 9:00) this creates a very tight stance and it is stressed that the rear foot point towards the 1:00 position which allows for the knee to have proper direction to target pressure point GB31 on the leg.  We stress proper angle and position into all our opening technique and by doing so allows for proper direction upon striking your opponent.  This is the essential element in pressure point defense that can't be learned from a book.  You can see how this type of documentation could be so vital to thoroughly learning a form such as Siu Sup Ki Kuen or small cross "respectively".  As for your question about the strobe light, guru required that all hand drills be enhanced with low vision lighting to give difficulty in the problem solving stages. We have only adpoted his training and theories and have taken this exercise a step further by using the strobe light as a enhancement tool in such training exercises as de-escalation of force and verbal conflict.  This is where traditional meets modern allowing students to find what works and what doesn't in a realistic environment as possible including plastic chairs, tables, lots of screaming and yelling, loud music and of course a strobe light setting.  This causes chemicals to react in the brain which enhance long term memory conditioning.  Students deal with a stress enduced environment and come away with new found skills of confidence.  This is kind of like the old masters final test of courage and skill for their student.  It is our sparring exercise as we hold true to the principle of a 6 second engagement and control during attacks.

Your friend, Merc

P.S.  My brother in law trained with James Ibrao for a number of years and James may have new Haumea, would this help in your research?


_What does one truly hear in combat? Through all the sounds of chaos and hell?  The only sound one truly hears is the sound of limp bodies that hit the ground._


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## eyebeams

Splashing Hands is not only not an old style, it's not even called Splashing Hands. It's a subset of Mok Gar techniques called &#38378;&#25163; -- "san soo" or sanshou," in fact (sound familiar?). Thanks to martial broken telephone, these techniques were most likely spun out into a seprate sub-art as Lefiti and McNeil elaborated on them.

This does not make Splashing Hands valueless. Arts have been founded on less, after all, and if they're effective one must respect how they have been elaborated.


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## kal

> It's a subset of Mok Gar techniques called &#38378;&#25163; -- "san soo" or sanshou," in fact (sound familiar?). Thanks to martial broken telephone, these techniques were most likely spun out into a seprate sub-art as Lefiti and McNeil elaborated on them.



What makes you say that?

I have no knowledge of Mok Gar -- and only seen a small bit of Splashing Hands --and so I am genuinely interested to hear how you infer this. Are you basing it on the fact that the Chinese characters are the same? Or do you see techniques within Splashing Hands that you can identify as coming from Mok Gar?

I agree with you when you say that if an art is effective one must respect how it has been elaborated, but I am curious to know what makes you think that such elaboration has taken place in Splashing Hands.

Can you recommend anywhere (book, website etc.) that shows the techniques in the Mok Gar subset that you say is called San Soo? 

I have always been very fascinated by the history and evolution of martial arts styles. Just recently I was chatting with a researcher who has some very interesting theories about the real origin of Aikijujutsu (the parent art of Aikido) and which are totally contrary to the official history.


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## eyebeams

kal said:
			
		

> What makes you say that?
> 
> I have no knowledge of Mok Gar -- and only seen a small bit of Splashing Hands --and so I am genuinely interested to hear how you infer this. Are you basing it on the fact that the Chinese characters are the same? Or do you see techniques within Splashing Hands that you can identify as coming from Mok Gar?
> 
> I agree with you when you say that if an art is effective one must respect how it has been elaborated, but I am curious to know what makes you think that such elaboration has taken place in Splashing Hands.



Long legs and short hands are the main characteristic of both. Several sources call Lefiti a Mok Gar master and it is plausible that Wong knew Mok-style techniques. Furthermore, Mok and Hung styles are often either taught together or are components of Five Families systems.

Another indication is that the "sanshou" style with those characters (not the same characters as sport sanshou) hasn't ever been found in China. For one thing, arts that end in something other than "quan" are pretty rare. For another, it's entirely plausible that the "sparkling hands" characters used by SH are actually a secondhand translation from phonetics, which makes it much like other "sanshou" subsystems arts have developed over the years as abbreviated training courses. Jimmy Woo's Kung Fu San Soo is another example of a kung fu "sanshou" subsystem that has turned into its own thing. Sometimes these short systems are also "gate" traditions that teach a system in a short period to turn out effective fighters while leaving the full corpus of kung fu for eadvanced students. There's a White Eyebrow school in London, ON that's done this recently. 

In addition, Lefiti may have taken influences from kenpo and lima lama. I believe it comes down to Mok Gar because of Lefiti's background and the Mok style being a common element of the teachings of all of *his* teachers, as well as Mok Gar's short hands/long legs.



> Can you recommend anywhere (book, website etc.) that shows the techniques in the Mok Gar subset that you say is called San Soo?



Mok Gar's not a very common style on its own, but parts of it are to be found in Hung Gar and Five Families systems. Hung Gar in particular tens to pick up parts of other arts to supplement its characteristically Southern core.


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## kal

What about all this business about SH originating with temple guards at the Northern Shaolin temple?


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## chris lomas

Eyebeams,
After having researched this (including watching and learning froms from both southern and northern Mok Gar teachers) I can personally see no co-relation - aside from normal aspects of Kung Fu they are very different. Humae did learn Mok gar from Ark Yuey Wong (alongside techniques from the other four families, 10 animals etc) and other styles with Ralph Shun. This means he had no need to invent lineage etc. I have seen Ark Yuey Wongs Mok form and, again, it is very different from splashing hands. 

My teacher says that Huame told him Splashing Hands was taught to him as a system in Taiwan, Chiao Chang Hung (from Taiwan) also recognised it as a style. Seeming (who is Ark Yuey Wongs heir) says Huames knew the system known as Splashing HAnds from Taiwan before learning under Ark Yuey Wong (he says it on a forum thread, though I have lost it it is probably searchable). My Teacher also says the 'legendary' origin of the system was told to Huame by the same teacher. I am sure Huame Contributed from his own background and knowledge at least to the training methods and drills of the system.

Huame was also fluent in seven languages so IMHO unlikely to make a translation error. I believe that San Shou (or free-fighting techniques) has quite different intonation and characters to San Shou meaning Splashing Hands. In fact that is why we use english to stop confusion.
However Douglas Wong (founder of White Lotus system), who studied for a time with Huame, felt that it was white crane/Mok gar based system - he has a wide influence due to his brother (Curtis) owning IKF and being a well known instructor - that is why Mok Gar comes up when talking about the system.

  Again I am not trying to argue with anyone as I would love to know the basis of such a ingenius and usable system (whether traditional or modern/eclectic doesn't 'matter' to me - I am a Martial Artist primarily not too bothered where a concept comes from so long as it is usable), however without other proofs and no evidence to support other theories I just follow the 'traditional' idea.

Merc, Thanks for your help thus far.


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## kal

It doesn't seem that the history of Splashing Hands is in any worse position that that of other, well-known and "mainstream" Chinese martial arts.

Look at Wing Chun. Despite being such a well known and accepted style, the history is clouded with undertainty. You can't even pinpoint the era of the origin of Wing Chun, with different sources conflicting to the tune of hundreds of years! Not to mention that there is question whether Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun were real people.

Tai chi as well. Again, there is doubt about when exactly Chang San Feng lived and if he even existed at all.

Unfortunately, it seems that Chinese martial arts were generally less documented than their Japanese counterparts and that makes any attempt at verifying history a very hard (if not imposible) task. By contrast, many of the classical Japanese arts kept very meticulous written records and this makes it a lot easier to trace things back even to the 15th century in some cases.


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## chris lomas

Absolutely,
IMO Splashing Hands often get 'questioned' more harshly then other 'unknown' systems for two reasons 1. The guy who chiefly represents it (My teacher Laoshi McNeil) is a westerner 2. We use the western term for the name. Its bizzare because of course some lineages are going to be passed to hard working western students, and anyone can buy a chinese-english dictionary. Again Huame was teaching before the kung fu series/'bruce lee' explosion so Kung Fu was relatively unknown so he would have gained little from calling it 'Kung Fu'.
I know two old guys (one 84 the other 92ish) who both learned in there youth what they simply refer to as 'Kung Fu', when questioned further 'Shaolin'. In many schools you tended to just train hard rather then be a walking historical textbook .


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## merc

I believe absolutely that splashing hands is an art of Kung Fu developed many centuries ago by masters long since been forgotten for whatever reason we may ponder. I have never seen Mok Gar though I would like to and as far as San Soo, I did practice with a close friend who was ranked under Sifu Chuck in Burbank, CA (San Soo), though he never discussed the origin of San Soo other than it being created by Grand Master Jimmy Woo back in the 30's. As far as Tsoi Lee Ho Fut Hung, this was never discussed and I see no similarities of any kind between this system and Splashing Hands, as you may want to call it. Back then the most important thing was practice, you didn't ask too much about the origin of a particular style, only that Kung Fu back then was divided into soft and hard styles. I do not give complete credit for the creation of this system solely to the Chinese, it has too much similarity to Polynesian cultural dance and it is my belief that this may have had some type of impact on this system and that it is quite possible that Chinese masters elaborated on this theory of defense. There was a culture of people in a dense tropical forest off the waters of Orinoco River around the border of Brazil and Venezuela, these people were called Yanomamo and they were fierce warriors of the jungle that would challenge one another within the community or surrounding villages, to chest pounding duels taking hallucinagentic drugs to heighten their courage. These people strike a close similarity to the people of Polynesia, Samoa and New Zealand, all of which tested their bravery by acts of fierce warriorship. The people of Polynesia settled into the area somewhere around the 7th-13th century and probably migrated from South/East Asia since there is linguistic and aguricultural similarities, passing through Melanesia, Western New Guinea, Indonesian Province of Papua and South of Solomon Islands, bear in mind that the Chinese culture goes farther back than 5000 years and that trade was common during the Ming Dynasty. I believe that many systems of self defense and quite possibly splashing hands has been around hundreds of years before Bodhidharma influence in 527AD with the Lo Han set that may have strong origins from India and quite possibly date back to Egypt. There is a book out by Gavin Menzies called "1421 The Year China Discovered America" that is worth reading. It basically states that on March 8, 1421, the largest armada the world has ever seen, set sail from Beijing to circumnatigate the globe and did so a century before Magellan and 70 years before Colombus discovered the new world, if this is so, I wonder what influence the colonies they left throughout the world had? and I wonder what treasures they brought back to China in 1423? Maybe splashing hands, who knows. All I can really say is that when I studied splashing hands from Sifu Haumea, he had this look in his eyes, the same look I saw many years later studying under Sensi Benny "The Jet" and the same look that the Gracies had when doing seminars and ultimately the same look the delta teams had on Ft. Bragg, NC. These guys didn't care where a good technique came from, the only thing they cared about was: 
*"Is it quick and was it efficient".* So what makes an art acceptable and somewhat authentic? Well is it practical, and if so then splashing hands certainly qualifies if I was in a pinch in a dark alley and had only one friend to help me, you can bet he would know splashing hands.
MERC


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## chris lomas

Merc,
Your information is fasinating as always. It is unfortunate that I am no scholar and not the smartest at this research buisness.

 It is amazing how many people will abrasively 'question' a system and how few will then stand toe to toe with you to recieve the answer. You are absolutely right (fighting is not a 'nice' thing) but without it as a -the-  fundermental justification and measure of martial arts they are just an empty talking shop. 
PS that isn't a critisism of people here, theres questioning and 'questioning' (see below)!!

For example my teacher, who has always been humble yet has learnt under five great masters - being passed lineage by 3 of them(!) still training hard in his mid 60s, has been attacked on Bullshido (a forum where many of the lowest of the low dregs of wannabe life hang out) particulalry for his teaching Splashing Hands, yet I will not even bother debating on that site as I know there is not a man there who will be prepared to back up statements by visiting my school (thats an invitation to the Bullshido guys...-). Yet they remain happy simply snipe from beneath their little rock . Sorry bit off topic but this attitude bugs me as they act as if they are 'defending' martial arts whereas many are just sounding off about there MMA predjudices that everything should look like Muay Thai and BJJ (and yet the best MMA practisioners I know are very open to different methods - again anything that works).

Anyhow, Merc, how do you remember the structure of Sifu Huame's classes going? What two person apps/drills did he really focus on regularly. When did he start people 'sparring' etc. Basically any snippets of information are always greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance,
Respects
Chris


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## merc

Well ok, I will try to recollect as much as I can about the school and Sifu Haumea. I remember distinctly that the school was rather small in comparison to other schools I have been to since that time and I have been to quite a few over the years. There was a small office area in front that opened to a rectangle room with a trophy showcase against the far side wall, I think. It was always somewhat dark as the lighting I remember during daytime classes was sometimes produced through the outside light that came in through the front door. There were no mats and the floor was of concrete and painted, I believe. There was a Lima Lama symbol on the West side wall and the North side wall had a back door which lead to a small walkway between 2 buildings. It was rather cool there as the sun did not penetrate down between these 2 buildings and I liked this place because it was somewhat quiet and peaceful. The classes composed of lots of basic drills and students sometimes lined up to be tested on wheather they were wearing a cup that day, sometimes you were just asked and if you said that you had forgotton to put one on you sometimes were kicked between the legs anyway just to enforce your memory next time around. This is how it went lots of commands, lots of yelling, sometimes leading into personal profanity directed towards a slow student. This I remember very well as I was not by any means at the top of the class. The drills seemed to focus on the "browns" though I have seen Sifu McNeil's tape on this and there are some basic variations but overall it is somewhat the same. Drills were stressed in the beginning of class (close the gap, double punch, re-direct, etc.) this all done as a warm up exercise I believe since I don't recall any stretching or yoga for warm up, Ha Ha! Then came the browns done by command stressing proper foot work (foot placement) and always speed challenging slower students to always keep up with the rest of the class then we paired up sometimes you had a favorite person that you liked working with and sometimes you got paired up with a more advanced student who didn't hold to much back. I have seen Sifu McNeil's tape, his students do not step in with the right cross, this is one thing I remember distinctly that the right cross was always delivered by stepping in with the right foot and that the stiff kick was stressed to be directed towards the groin area and planted center line of the attacker though I remember brown #3 being a heel kick to the groin after the pivot and brown #4 was the sweep though there was four strikes after the sweep and one palm strike directed towards the head with the right hand, left hand slaping the right wrist (open palm strike). Sifu Haumea taught class every now and then and I remember that though he was somewhat strict in his teaching it was a treat in comparison to Sifu Tino who was just down right "mean". So as much as I can remember basic drills were given by command somewhere to the tune of 500-1000 reps completely just for warm up then browns were given to the same tune sometimes less sometimes more then the class divided and paired off, always stressing more speed and contact. Class normally ended with advance students performing a particular form (small cross, snake, etc.) Sparring was stressed only if you were to compete in an upcoming tournament and I didn't see too much of this in open class. Well I hope this helps you somewhat understand your system, bear in mind that my recollection of the structure of teaching is somewhat shadowed by time, but the highlights I have given you, I recollect to be as true as I can possibly remember.
Your friend Merc


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## 7starmantis

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> To start, I don't advocate self-slapping for self-slapping's sake. We don't just Kong thump ourselves. The slap checks and proprioceptive self-cues -- properly used -- contact self at specific points in movement. Unfortunately, this application in kenpo was under-represented in the main, and is largley ignored or lost. But not completely.
> 
> The functions are both biomechanical, and proprioceptive, and are placed and timed to accentuate an action, rather than stunt it. As a study, like I metioned, most kenpo folk don't do it well...unless, by chance, they have cross-trained in a kung-fu system that includes similar body checking mechanisms. Most attempt to mimic Mr. Parkers slapping, and without the information about how and why, create mis-steps. Like slapping the chest when it don't apply.


Ok, I can see that, but aren't you still using one hand to make contact with your own body when it could be used to make contact with the opponent or attacker? It seems your tying up both hands to do a technique that only uses one hand. I'm talking of a purely fighting situation here however.

7sm


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## merc

Yes, I often wondered this myself if dropping my guard hand was in my best interest and the added movement of striking my body (splashing hands) was really needed for the purpose of infighting, but then a principle disclosed itself over time as I started to relate to keeping your elbows as close to your center line as possible for added strength. Try this test: if a person of agressive nature shakes your hand and overly squeezes, there is not much you can do-Just take it! but if you point your index finger straight out, mimicing a gun pointing back at him, it strengthens the entire hand preventing him from doing harm, simple huh? Well the same theory holds true for elbows aligned within center line and feet straignt foward when in a horse stance (Mah Bu). The farther your elbows exceed off center line, the weaker your arms will be and if your feet are canted away from your center line, the weaker your legs will be. And yes I know this is somewhat simplistic but the same theory hold true for your shoulders when striking. If your shoulder is held in place tightly to your center line, it makes the strike much stronger. This is one of the main reasons I believe why "Splashing hands" opposite hand comes back to your body- to train yourself "not to turn your shoulders too much on the inside during infighting". Still don't believe this? well then try this trick, there is a technique in Aikido called "Nikyo" it is a simple wrist grab (better if you know this technique) but here goes: Your opponent grabs your wrist either same side or cross side grab, you counter this move by traping his hand on your wrist then wraping your attacked hand around his wrist applying force downward towards you and the floor/ground. If you don't know this technique, it will take a few times to learn it and those that do know this technique will tell you first hand--HA HA "get it" that it is almost impossible to resist the pain. But here is the trick, your opponent reaches in and grabs your wrist (you are in a wu chi position) you step with your opposite side "foot" (the side that has not been attacked)forward and in just off center line (center line will always point towards 12:00 in front of you) keep your forward shoulder "forward pointing towards 10:00 or 2:00 and try to resist his attack once more, you will find that the forward shoulder and the structure of the rear elbow make your position very strong. This same theory hold true in splashing hands by allowing the shoulder to never exceed past your flank and always structurally align with your opposite arm creating one "massive unit". This is important in splashing hands and I was taught that the hand always rebounded off your body for quicker response, is it important not to drop your guard hand, well the guard hand cannot respond to an attack unless there is connection with the lead hand, without connection you are too close to your opponent to offer any effective defense. I was taught that the hands recoil off your body much like water that splashes against rocks, it simply bounces off and connects once more to its forward position. If you look closely at the opening sequence in many of splashing hands techniques you will see that the hand that slaps the shoulder bounces back at a high position and the hand that slaps below the chest strikes at a lower position. The reason for this is becuase they have anticipated the attackers arm being either fully extended or somewhat in a recoiled position allowing them to attack low line to the body then striking high line to the head or neck area for maximum results with minimal effort of neurological response. You can see that this type of training is very direct and maximizes time efficiently and it is not uncommon for a beginner student to effectively strike his opponent with a flury of combinations sometimes throwing out 4 to 5 strikes per second. Hope this gives you a better understanding of Sifu Haumea's system of splashing hands.
MERC


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## chris lomas

Merc Thanks a lot for your continued time and help. We do several varations of the browns so the ones on the videos are just one example  (that said did you ever find out why they are called 'browns', my teacher never asked, so we just don't know:idunno:!).

As for stepping in on the right cross, could you reiterate that? I was a little uncertain what you meant. I know we tend to pivot a little on the back foot (but don't stress to beginners as they tend to throw too much uncentred body weight behind it) do you mean a little advancing step (so presumable like a jump shuffle forwards) or a slight side step (like brown ones first step)?

Thanks again, respects,

Chris


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## merc

sorry can't help you on the "browns issue" as I am in the dark myself!
Though your (on video) browns look much more like beginning purple belt "sets 1-8" as i remember it somewhat. But I do remember that the attacker always jab in place then step in with a right cross, there was though variations to this. Is there anymore video's planned for the future?
                                                  Your Friend: MERC


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## 7starmantis

Merc, Thank you for your responses so far. I think I understand your point from your last post. We are simply comming from different ideas or philosophies of fighting I believe. I must confess, I'm a mantis fighter all the way so my guage is a little biased towards our principels and methods. I'll outline a few reasons the "slapping" is confusing to me or I do not agree with it. It is find that we disagree, thats the beauty of different systems and styles.

1.) Loosing contact. In mantis we stress contact at all time, so to voluntarily slap your own body with one hand breaks that principle. You would have to break contact with your opponent to make contact with your own body. Or, you would have to drop guard to do so. Thats why I find it confusing.

2.) Your description of "why" centers around creating strength and resisting your opponents techniques. In mantis we do not resist but yield and "go with" the opponents techniques. Thats one of our key weapons is to move with a technique so the opponent hasn't even realized he hasn't performed the technique until he runs into our own attack or series of attacks. We call this "opening and closing the door". Take the same technique you mentioned "Nikyo". Your approach (which I'm not sayign is wrong, just different) is to align the body to resist the technique or pain. From my training I would attempt to yield to it and attack myself. For instance I would want to "get ahead" of the downward movement and bring my body in, bending at the elbow. I would initially use the bent elbow to attack the opponent as well (this is all of course considering I couldn't just let go of the grab at the beggining). See, this way, the opponent is still sending his "force" or "energy" or "center" downward and my elbow would be coming upward. I wouldn't need strength or much power as his downward movement would meet my elbow. 

3.) Again you speak of being weak from the elbows, while I rely on that "weakness" to yield and move with my opponent. I dont want to be strong enough to resist a technique I want to be relaxed enough to move with the technqiue and finish the circle into an attack of my own.

Just some differences I see in our training...pretty interesting.

7sm


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Merc, Thank you for your responses so far. I think I understand your point from your last post. We are simply comming from different ideas or philosophies of fighting I believe. I must confess, I'm a mantis fighter all the way so my guage is a little biased towards our principels and methods. I'll outline a few reasons the "slapping" is confusing to me or I do not agree with it. It is find that we disagree, thats the beauty of different systems and styles.
> 
> 1.) Loosing contact. In mantis we stress contact at all time, so to voluntarily slap your own body with one hand breaks that principle. You would have to break contact with your opponent to make contact with your own body. Or, you would have to drop guard to do so. Thats why I find it confusing.
> 
> 2.) Your description of "why" centers around creating strength and resisting your opponents techniques. In mantis we do not resist but yield and "go with" the opponents techniques. Thats one of our key weapons is to move with a technique so the opponent hasn't even realized he hasn't performed the technique until he runs into our own attack or series of attacks. We call this "opening and closing the door". Take the same technique you mentioned "Nikyo". Your approach (which I'm not sayign is wrong, just different) is to align the body to resist the technique or pain. From my training I would attempt to yield to it and attack myself. For instance I would want to "get ahead" of the downward movement and bring my body in, bending at the elbow. I would initially use the bent elbow to attack the opponent as well (this is all of course considering I couldn't just let go of the grab at the beggining). See, this way, the opponent is still sending his "force" or "energy" or "center" downward and my elbow would be coming upward. I wouldn't need strength or much power as his downward movement would meet my elbow.
> 
> 3.) Again you speak of being weak from the elbows, while I rely on that "weakness" to yield and move with my opponent. I dont want to be strong enough to resist a technique I want to be relaxed enough to move with the technqiue and finish the circle into an attack of my own.
> 
> Just some differences I see in our training...pretty interesting.
> 
> 7sm


 
7Sm:

The strategic objectives of SH are somewhat different than from the Tong Long schools. In SH, the idea is to attack your opponent with a barrage that's too much to keep up with. The rest of the technical stuff follows from that simple idea. In most systems, there is a "re-chambering" of a weapon prior to bringing it back into play. If your objective is a rapid-fire barrage, re-chambering takes a natural weapon out of play for too long. So the strikes, rather than going out-back-out-back, are "stacked" on eliptical orbits that shorten their path by bumping into the body (instead of going behind it or to the side of it), and the bouncing off the body sends it back into the onslaught of the barrage sooner, rather than later. 

So, you are correct in that it is a violation of a positioned guard. But the objective is not to be both defensive and offensive at the same time. Rather, to be so overwhelmingly offensive with blitzes and pressing the attack, that the guy defensing can't keep up, and will -- eventually and inevitably -- miss one, starting a cascade of misses that leads to him becoming a human striking bag.

While I have not trained in SH specifically, I have trained with some of Mr. Tino's boyz while he was in Samoa, and you can see the distinct influences in the movements and training drills that are infused into Lima Lama, and do not come from kenpo or kajukenbo.

Regards,

Dave


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## chris lomas

Nice explantion
By the by 7*, one of my Splashing Hands brothers also teaches 7* from Lee Kam Wing(sic?) HK lineage. I am sure he is in the ideal position to help you with serious comparision if you are interested PM me and I'll give you contact details.
Best Chris


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## 7starmantis

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> 7Sm:
> 
> The strategic objectives of SH are somewhat different than from the Tong Long schools. In SH, the idea is to attack your opponent with a barrage that's too much to keep up with. The rest of the technical stuff follows from that simple idea. In most systems, there is a "re-chambering" of a weapon prior to bringing it back into play. If your objective is a rapid-fire barrage, re-chambering takes a natural weapon out of play for too long. So the strikes, rather than going out-back-out-back, are "stacked" on eliptical orbits that shorten their path by bumping into the body (instead of going behind it or to the side of it), and the bouncing off the body sends it back into the onslaught of the barrage sooner, rather than later.


 Yeah there are some big differences, but this is actually a similarity. One of the major core points of mantis is to overwhelm your opponent with such aggressive action and violence that you...well...overwhelm them. I agree with the chambering point, in mantis we do not attack and then pull back and then attack, it should be fluid from one to the next. However, I have to say that even bringing the attack back enough to "bounce" off your body is too much "chambering" and wastes precious time and energy. We stress no wasted movements, and just in my own opinion, that is a wasted movement as one could attack quicker without bringing the arm back to their own body. I just dont see the natural progression of a punch returning to the punchers body. Its no big deal, just different philosophies, but instead of bringing the punch back to the body to reinitiate an attack, we simply change weapons so to speak. If a punch misses its target, we go to the elbow, then the shoulder, then the hip, then the knee, etc. We also work so heavily on "feel" so that when something misses (or even connects) we can change the attack even into a different angle or direction using its natural circle. My major issue with bringing the hand or arm back to the body is that we use heavy trapping. Bringing my arm back to my body regardless of intent is going to get it trapped and my center taken. WE stay in contact all the time when fighting so someone voluntarily bringing their arm back to their body is really escorting my arm and attack into their body as well.



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> So, you are correct in that it is a violation of a positioned guard. But the objective is not to be both defensive and offensive at the same time. Rather, to be so overwhelmingly offensive with blitzes and pressing the attack, that the guy defensing can't keep up, and will -- eventually and inevitably -- miss one, starting a cascade of misses that leads to him becoming a human striking bag.


 I can see that, but its important to understand that there will be opponents who can "steal the attack" from you and then your left with no defense. It seems your relying on the fact that you will overwhelm them enough to end the encounter, but what if you dont? Without some training on at least defending into another attack, its quite a gamble isn't it?



			
				chris lomas said:
			
		

> Nice explantion
> By the by 7*, one of my Splashing Hands brothers also teaches 7* from Lee Kam Wing(sic?) HK lineage. I am sure he is in the ideal position to help you with serious comparision if you are interested PM me and I'll give you contact details.
> Best Chris


 I have trained with Sifu Lee before and my Sifu and Sigung have trained extensively with him, but our lineage is a bit different from his. We focus a bit more on some of the soft principles and "feel" than most LKW lineages do. I guess you could say we use more Tai Chi principles in our fighting. 

7sm


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## chris lomas

Remember the hand coming back is in lue of another (opponents) body part being availble. If they are actively involved, then you will be bouncing off the attacking limb (ie simulataneous blocking and striking) not bringing back to the shoulder, that is just training maximum extentsion of the theory, not often the practicality . As well that it is coming back only so long as the striking arm goes forward. Also if used as a yielding pak sau it does not cross to the point of being trapable. 7* does this help? I am not smart so maybe not getting your points -sorry.
PS Didn't mean to imply you were LKW student, just letting you know my friends background as he has good success blending the arts (he got best fighter in the Mantis Lei Tei competition heldin Hungary the other week).


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## 7starmantis

chris lomas said:
			
		

> Remember the hand coming back is in lue of another (opponents) body part being availble. If they are actively involved, then you will be bouncing off the attacking limb (ie simulataneous blocking and striking) not bringing back to the shoulder, that is just training maximum extentsion of the theory, not often the practicality . As well that it is coming back only so long as the striking arm goes forward. Also if used as a yielding pak sau it does not cross to the point of being trapable. 7* does this help? I am not smart so maybe not getting your points -sorry.
> PS Didn't mean to imply you were LKW student, just letting you know my friends background as he has good success blending the arts (he got best fighter in the Mantis Lei Tei competition heldin Hungary the other week).



Yes that does answer my questiosn alot better, I was more interested in the application of it rather than the theory behind it. IT makes much more sense now that you have explained the fighting application of it.

I wasn't reacting to your mentioning LKW, sorry if I came across as such. I just wanted to point out that our family is quite a bit different from his lineage. 

7sm


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## kal

Black Tiger Fist said:


> Not to bust your bubble or diss your sifu in anyway ,but "Splashing Hands" is not a traditional chinese martial art. It is a creation of Mc Neil's or his sifu. This does not mean it's not/is effective though.
> 
> Many have done this learned a number of techniques and then labled it with their own name. I really don't know much about Mc Neil ,but it seems noone knows much about Mc Neil except those that buy his books and are students of his or within his lineage.
> 
> This is from the website you posted in your thread.
> 
> Ark Wong Yuey is known for many styles ,but i've never heard of him having any knowledge or anything to do with "Splashing Hands" ,plus he's a name that comes up alot from the mouths of many fruads within the CMA community.
> 
> Ark Wong Yuey is a name that brings many a TCMA stylist a strong since of hatred ,because it is said he taught anything to anyone for a price. So many ppl claim him as their teacher even those that teach nothing but kenpo/kempo hybrids.
> 
> I'm not saying that Mc Neil is a fake or fruad because i don't know him ,but he's surely a secretive person.
> 
> jeff


 
Hi,
This thread has been dormant for some time, but I was wondering if anyone had made any progress recently on tracing the origins of the style back any further. On this and forums, there have been several theories offered (e.g. Mok Gar) but no hard evidence as far as I can see.


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## Doc

punisher73 said:


> I copied this from a reply that Dr. Chapel (sorry but can't get the accent over the 'e') over from the kenpo forum here.  This might explain why Ark Wong is associated alot with kenpo and why "splashing hands" seems alot like kenpo in appearance.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Although GM Wong was the acknowledged head of Five Animal Qung fu, he also was the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America. It is here where the legendary Haumea Tiny Lefiti landed with a letter from his original teacher when he was discharged from the Marine Corp. Tiny was older than Parker but they shared Polynesian Roots and a military kinship because he too had served in the coast guard. Parker however was lucky enough to be stationed in Hawaii which allowed him to continue training with Chow and receive his black belt in Kenpo, Jiu-jitsu, and karate-do while still in the military.
> 
> The Chinese influences are great in many areas, from a number of sources. The earlier foray into Chinese Arts saw Ed Parker Sr. beginning to emulate in many ways his Samoan Senior at Ark Wongs. Having a similar body build made Parker very comfortable with the explosive handwork of Splashing Hands he saw with Tiny. To put it mildly, Tiny was a monster who had himself, a great deal of influence on martial artists in Southern California. Consider him a bigger, stronger and yes, faster Ed Parker and you have Tiny at that stage of Parkers development. Ultimately, Tiny left to join Ed Parkers black belt Tino Tuiolosega in the formation of the original Lima Lama organization at Parkers suggestion. This influenced others like the late Sal Esquivel to spend time at Ark Wongs as well. Danny Inosanto also was no stranger to Ark Wongs school before leaving to be with Parker, before going on the road once again with Bruce Lee and also studying Kali and Silat.
> 
> Make no mistake. Ed Parker was a student of Ark Wong, and although he spent time with many Chinese Masters, Ark Wong was probably the biggest Chinese influence with Five Animal and Splashing Hands. Even more than his relationships with James (Wing) Woo, or Lau Bun who was his primary Hung Gar influence.
> 
> ----------------------------------
> 
> It doesn't give the history of splashing hands, but it explains where the kenpo connection comes in to play.



Keep in mind that the term "Splashing Hands" was not a strict style term, but more a euphemism for what is essentially a Mok-Gar off-shoot style taught with a hig degree of exclusivity. It was in many eyes, the modern "Kenpo" of its day. that is stripped down and dirty fighting with no underlying philosphical or cultural restrictions, with only the goal of devastating maximum destructive fighting ability.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

Holy Cow!  This thread is over four years old! :yakko:


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## Doc

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Holy Cow!  This thread is over four years old! :yakko:



Well you know you just bounce around and see something you want to comment on. 

I only know a little of James McNeils background from old friends in the Chinese Community and bumping into him a couple of times. While it is true he did study a little bit with Sifu Lefiti, he wasn't a black sash and I think made maybe green? Although I don't know who orignated the term, "Splashing Hands" I did hear Ark Wong and Ed Parker use it a few times in reference to what was essentially Mok-Gar. 

But Huamea Lefiti didn't teach strict Mok-Gar either, but infused all of his experiences into his teaching, which he ultimately deemed "Combat Limalama." The euphamistic Splashing Hands term may have been a transitional thing while all parties searched for an identity for the "almost but not quite" Mok-Gar.


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## chris lomas

Doc, hate to argue but Sifu McNeil was certainly black sash (I think the last black sash given). He is pictured in a newspaper article at Huames funeral with the other 7 black sashes. He also has the certificates etc.. etc. Please don't post stuff like that without proof, there is enough BS rumour and hearsay in Martial Arts already. If you think that's untrue maybe you should email him, I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you about where you got that idea.

Also he is the only one (to my knowledge) who has kept the system alive in its original form (for example, Huame only taught the animal forms post-black sash as I'm sure you know). He has confirmed lineage from several other (highly respected) Kung Fu Masters in Taiwan (Chaio Chang Hung, Chin Cheng Yen etc.) so he has no need to make stuff up (he cops a lot of flack for keeping this system alive).


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## newtothe dark

I have met Sifu McNeil a couple of times and he seemed very Knowledgeable and very forthcoming seems to be a man of high standard. just my .02$


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## Doc

chris lomas said:


> Doc, hate to argue but Sifu McNeil was certainly black sash (I think the last black sash given). He is pictured in a newspaper article at Huames funeral with the other 7 black sashes. He also has the certificates etc.. etc. Please don't post stuff like that without proof, there is enough BS rumour and hearsay in Martial Arts already. If you think that's untrue maybe you should email him, I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you about where you got that idea.


Let me repeat what I said sir, *"I only know a little of James McNeils background from old friends in the Chinese Community...*  I know most of the people who made black sash, and none of them recall McNeil getting beyond green. That doesn't mean he didn't make sash somewhere else. In my eyes it doesn't really matter. Knowledge and skill trumps belts and rank all day. If he knows his stuff, its good enough for me.



> Also he is the only one (to my knowledge) who has kept the system alive in its original form (for example, Huame only taught the animal forms post-black sash as I'm sure you know). He has confirmed lineage from several other (highly respected) Kung Fu Masters in Taiwan (Chaio Chang Hung, Chin Cheng Yen etc.) so he has no need to make stuff up (he cops a lot of flack for keeping this system alive).


I'm not questioning his credentials because I don't know. But when you say *kept the original system alive in its original form* what system are you speaking of? 

You see, I do know from being there, that there is no original "Splashing Hands" system that Tiny ever taught to my knowledge. 

In fact, "Splashing Hands" was a descriptive euphemistic slang term for a derivative of Mok-Gar. Tiny never actually named his style, or his teaching "Splashing Hands." He described it to me personally (1 st person) as more "Combat Mok-Gar," which is what "Splashing Hands" was supposed to be." 

But Tiny taught a personal blend and interpretation of the Mok-Gar he learned in Taiwan, with the Five Animal and Mok-Gar blend he learned from Ark Wong, distilled into his own personal fighting system. Later still, he was to call it his own "Limalama." But, even this is not to be confused with other interpretations of Limalama taught by Tino Tuiolosega, and later Sal Esquivel and Richard Nunez. All different.

I don't know who orignated the term, "Splashing Hands" I did hear Ark Wong and Ed Parker use it a few times in reference to what was essentially Mok-Gar, but it was more a reference differentiation from other material dominant in Ark Wongs teaching. Like you would take an automobile, strip it down and soup it up. Its still a car, but you might call it a "Hot Rod" instead. This is the sense I have of the term "Splashing Hands." Not a true style but a 'nickname' of sorts of particular teachings in the Ark Wong lineage.

James McNeil may have liked the name, and chose to call the interpretion of what he had learned by this term. Maybe he heard someone use it. I don't know. However, this style name is not in the Lineage of Ark Wong, Tiny Lefiti, Ed Parker, (or anyone else as far as I know). Only Mok-Gar-Five Animal has that lineage distinction. And outside that lineage, James McNeil is the only one who uses the term.

Huamea Lefiti didn't even teach strict Mok-Gar let alone "Splashing Hands," which he ultimately changed from "Combat Mok-Gar to "Combat Limalama." Once again. the euphamistic "Splashing Hands" term was never an "official" style, at least not in the Ark Yuey Wong, Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti, Edmund Kealoha Parker Lineage I'm very familiar with.


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## chris lomas

Hi, Doc,
People like Doug Wong (of 'White Lotus' fame who also studied with Huame), and the late Ralph Shun (Huames Kung Fu Brother and friend under Ark Yuey Wong both acknowledge(d) Sifu McNeil as a black sash under Huame, that may help clear up your thoughts about his grade.

 Also Sifu McNeil was kept on green for a looonnnggg time, this may be where this misconception comes from. He often tells the story that Huame said he was ready to grade for Brown, but he was being (mock) humble and said 'No, Tiny I'm not ready' So Huame didn't grade him for over 2 years while lots of new students passed him by. When he finally did he said 'If I say you'r ready, you're ready'.

By original form I mean as Huame taught it (I.e just as you presumably teach Kempo as the legendary Ed Parker did). Who else does, for example, the Short Cross, Combination the way Huame did it (seriously?). Sifu McNeil has 8mm footage of himself and his Kung Fu brothers performing it at competitions etc. No one else seems to practice Huame's versions of the various forms.

 Yes it was known as 'Polynesian art of Self Defence' as well as 'Lefiti Kung Fu', he then joinged 'Lima Lama' but Sifu McNeil says that when he asked he said it was based on Zan Shou he learned in Taiwan, but as the name was so close to San Soo and San Shou it was refered to in English as Splashing Hands. As to the name, I don't feel its very important.
Best Chris


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## Doc

chris lomas said:


> Hi, Doc,
> People like Doug Wong (of 'White Lotus' fame who also studied with Huame), and the late Ralph Shun (Huames Kung Fu Brother and friend under Ark Yuey Wong both acknowledge(d) Sifu McNeil as a black sash under Huame, that may help clear up your thoughts about his grade.
> 
> Also Sifu McNeil was kept on green for a looonnnggg time, this may be where this misconception comes from. He often tells the story that Huame said he was ready to grade for Brown, but he was being (mock) humble and said 'No, Tiny I'm not ready' So Huame didn't grade him for over 2 years while lots of new students passed him by. When he finally did he said 'If I say you'r ready, you're ready'.
> 
> By original form I mean as Huame taught it (I.e just as you presumably teach Kempo as the legendary Ed Parker did). Who else does, for example, the Short Cross, Combination the way Huame did it (seriously?). Sifu McNeil has 8mm footage of himself and his Kung Fu brothers performing it at competitions etc. No one else seems to practice Huame's versions of the various forms.
> 
> Yes it was known as 'Polynesian art of Self Defence' as well as 'Lefiti Kung Fu', he then joinged 'Lima Lama' but Sifu McNeil says that when he asked he said it was based on Zan Shou he learned in Taiwan, but as the name was so close to San Soo and San Shou it was refered to in English as Splashing Hands. As to the name, I don't feel its very important.
> Best Chris


Sounds good to me. Next time I talk to Doug I'll mention it. I acknowledge all of those names, (and more) that Tiny used for the/his art. I too don't feel it is important, nor have any real concerns about rank. McNeils lineage is clear, and I saw him there myself.


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## chris lomas

Doc,
I tend to see a lot of Lefiti's hand motions in Kenpo, but his 'shuffle' footwork doesn't seem to be used. Is this so it would blend more easily with his former training or for more 'root'? We don't get much Kenpo in England (unfortunately it seems to have remained quite American-based) so I only go of the little I have seen.
Best
Chris


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## Doc

chris lomas said:


> Doc,
> I tend to see a lot of Lefiti's hand motions in Kenpo, but his 'shuffle' footwork doesn't seem to be used. Is this so it would blend more easily with his former training or for more 'root'? We don't get much Kenpo in England (unfortunately it seems to have remained quite American-based) so I only go of the little I have seen.
> Best
> Chris



The footwork is there, but in not in the commercial version of Kenpo that doesn't place an emphasis on stances, or stable structure as Tiny did. Commercial Kenpo is all about mimicking the hand movements they've seen Parker do, not realizing where it came from and how much is missing. Parker emulated his senior, Tiny. What I teach is much closer to the origin having been a student of Ark Wong first, and later Ed Parker, and not taught 'commercial kenpo' based on motion.


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## kal

Doc said:


> But Tiny taught a personal blend and interpretation of *the Mok-Gar he learned in Taiwan*, with the Five Animal and Mok-Gar blend he learned from Ark Wong, distilled into his own personal fighting system.


 
So was it Mok Gar he learned in Taiwan? I always thought it was something else, something called Zan Shou Quan.

Doc, do you have any idea who the Taiwanese Mok Gar teacher might have been? Did Tiny ever mention his name?

Also, do the characteristics of today's Splashing Hands i.e. the shuffles on the cross and the slapping of oneself all exist in Mok Gar?


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## Doc

kal said:


> So was it Mok Gar he learned in Taiwan? I always thought it was something else, something called Zan Shou Quan.


I've heard that as well.


> Doc, do you have any idea who the Taiwanese Mok Gar teacher might have been? Did Tiny ever mention his name?


Actually that was between he and Sifu, and neither ever talked about it that I heard.


> Also, do the characteristics of today's Splashing Hands i.e. the shuffles on the cross and the slapping of oneself all exist in Mok Gar?


I don't really have an understanding of what someone would now call "Splashing Hands." It, for me, was a non-existent style even back in the day. I think the Chinese Arts just like more modern ones suffer from semantical descrepancies in their identity. What I called Splashing Hands was just a nickname, a throw-a-way term from a particular perspective of stripped down teaching of the time for certain elements of Mok-Gar.

These terms have been influenced by the Japanese mindset where style names actually meant a specific, non-changing "way" of doing something. Whreas in the Chinese Arts it was a reflection of a particular philosophy from a "family style head."

Both Ark Wong, Jimmy Woo, and Ed Parker all said, "They're all the same." There is this huge body of knowledge, and how you choose to teach it, and what part you choose to focus upon, is why some give it a style name. There was a time when these style names meant more. Now the answer is to talk about philosophy of execution, training, and goals of the teacher. Call it whatever you want, Splashing Hands? Mok-Gar? Kenpo? It's all the same, and none of the same.

For me, spending an inordinate amount of time trying to tie down a name, is not as important as my continuing education of the science of execution. Some have called what I do different things on different nights based on their own background. Some say kenpo, some say not. Some say Five Animal, some say not. I've even heard Splashing Hands, I say not, but does it really matter. My teacher called it kenpo. But he called all of his work kenpo and it is all different depending upon when you learned, and what he wanted to teach you. So I call what I do, "Kenpo as I learned from my teacher in a method and manner he didn't seem to teach anyone else that I know of." Shortened to SubLevel Four or SL-4 Kenpo. There are elements of all observers recognitions, and why shouldn't it be? There truly is only one correct way to do something physically, so when you do these correct.....

*"Call any of it what you will, as long as you do it looking up after I knock you down." - Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti*


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## kal

> I don't really have an understanding of what someone would now call "Splashing Hands." It, for me, was a non-existent style even back in the day.


 
Let me be more clear: I am talking about the characteristic moves that you'll see if you watch one of James McNeil's classes or his videos.



> I think the Chinese Arts just like more modern ones suffer from semantical descrepancies in their identity.


 
Regardless of the whole "They're all the same" philosophy, there ARE certain characteristics that make styles easy to recognise.

You see someone doing bong sao, using a wooden dummy or doing siu lum tao, it's a pretty good guess that it's wing chun. You see someone with hand position resembling a praying mantis ... well it's probably because he's doing praying mantis style. You see someone walking the circle doing palm changes, probably baguazhang.



> "Call any of it what you will, as long as you do it looking up after I knock you down." - Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti


You can knock me down so that I'm looking up at you, but that still doesn't make Baguazhang the same as Xingyiquan, or Wing Chun the same as Choy Li Fut. 

What are some of the things that I would call characteristics of Splashing Hands? well, these are the techniques or the ways of moving which I have only seen in that style. 

Example are:
- Shuffling footwork
- Shuffles and drills inside a painted box on the floor
- Slapping the shoulder or side of body while the other hand strikes
- Practicing strikes with relaxed, open hands which look like you are shaking water off the hands.
- Stiff legged front kick 
- Donkey kick
- The Browns
- The Advances
- The Sections
- Four Corners Form (and other forms)

These are some of the things I have never seen in any style except James McNeil's Splashing Hands, and it would be interesting to see if they are present in Mok Gar.

P.S.


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## newtothe dark

PHP:
	

[I]What are some of the things that I would call characteristics of Splashing Hands? well, these are the techniques or the ways of moving which I have only seen in that style. 
 
Example are:
- Shuffling footwork
- Shuffles and drills inside a painted box on the floor
- Slapping the shoulder or side of body while the other hand strikes
- Practicing strikes with relaxed, open hands which look like you are shaking water off the hands.
- Stiff legged front kick 
- Donkey kick
- The Browns
- The Advances
- The Sections
- Four Corners Form (and other forms)
 
These are some of the things I have never seen in any style except James McNeil's Splashing Hands, and it would be interesting to see if they are present in Mok Gar.
 
P.S.[/quote][/I]

The Slapping of one side and hitting with other hand and the Shaking off type hand postures I have seen in a few Fukien styles as well.


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## Doc

kal said:


> Let me be more clear: I am talking about the characteristic moves that you'll see if you watch one of James McNeil's classes or his videos.
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of the whole "They're all the same" philosophy, there ARE certain characteristics that make styles easy to recognise.
> 
> You see someone doing bong sao, using a wooden dummy or doing siu lum tao, it's a pretty good guess that it's wing chun. You see someone with hand position resembling a praying mantis ... well it's probably because he's doing praying mantis style. You see someone walking the circle doing palm changes, probably baguazhang.
> 
> 
> You can knock me down so that I'm looking up at you, but that still doesn't make Baguazhang the same as Xingyiquan, or Wing Chun the same as Choy Li Fut.
> 
> What are some of the things that I would call characteristics of Splashing Hands? well, these are the techniques or the ways of moving which I have only seen in that style.
> 
> Example are:
> - Shuffling footwork
> - Shuffles and drills inside a painted box on the floor
> - Slapping the shoulder or side of body while the other hand strikes
> - Practicing strikes with relaxed, open hands which look like you are shaking water off the hands.
> - Stiff legged front kick
> - Donkey kick
> - The Browns
> - The Advances
> - The Sections
> - Four Corners Form (and other forms)
> 
> These are some of the things I have never seen in any style except James McNeil's Splashing Hands, and it would be interesting to see if they are present in Mok Gar.
> 
> P.S.


And what if the characteristics you recognize are not in someone else's assessment of these arts? What if someone teaches Wing Chun without any of those things, because he chooses a different teaching method? What if the "Splashing Hands" I remember doesn't look like what McNeil is doing? Is it still Splashing Hands? What makes your definition gospel to anyone but you?

I understand the necessity for some to be married to styles for identity sake. But you miss my point. All of these "styles" evolve and change over time predicated on who teaches it, and their personal preferences. THEY think they're still doing Wing Chun, so who are any of us to tell them different? People older in the arts than I, (and I'm over 60) taught me its all the same, with philosophical exceptions of who teaches what. I'll stick with that, and continue to grow while others argue about style identities that won't improve their performance. At my age I don't have the energy for useless information, that will not help me physically.


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## kal

Here are some examples of the style that is today called Splashing Hands.

Here are the 10 Browns:




 
And here is the 4 Corners form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLZqIiavozk&mode=related&search=

Notice how in the 4 conrners form, there is a lot of shuffling on the spot, where the upper body and spine do not really move, but the feet shuffle on the (imaginary!) axes of a cross on the ground.

And here is a description of the syllabus of the Splashing Hands style:
http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/syllabus/oldsyllabus.html

You can also see the cross and box painted on the floor.

It definitely looks like a style.


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## kal

Doc said:


> What if someone teaches Wing Chun without any of those things


Then he's probably a fraud!
(Yes I'm aware that there are some non-Yip Man lineages of Wing Chun around such as nanyang or yuen kay sang , but trust me, none of the frauds I've seen were teaching anything connected to genuine Wing Chun.) 



> What if the "Splashing Hands" I remember doesn't look like what McNeil is doing?


That would definitely be interesting, and I certainly would like to understand where the differences came from.



> What makes your definition gospel to anyone but you?


What the head/lineage holder of the system says.



> All of these "styles" evolve and change over time predicated on who teaches it, and their personal preferences.


 
Yes I agree with you ... for example look how many different styles of taijiquan or even xingyichuan there now are.

But the thing is that I believe even when styles evolve or branch out, they still retain the core or essence of what made them what they were. call it the "operating system" if you like. No matter how much personal preferences a Bagua instructor has, I doubt his Bagua will ever evolve into Hung Gar.


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## Doc

kal said:


> Then he's probably a fraud!
> (Yes I'm aware that there are some non-Yip Man lineages of Wing Chun around such as nanyang or yuen kay sang , but trust me, none of the frauds I've seen were teaching anything connected to genuine Wing Chun.)
> 
> 
> That would definitely be interesting, and I certainly would like to understand where the differences came from.
> 
> 
> What the head/lineage holder of the system says.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I agree with you ... for example look how many different styles of taijiquan or even xingyichuan there now are.
> 
> But the thing is that I believe even when styles evolve or branch out, they still retain the core or essence of what made them what they were. call it the "operating system" if you like. No matter how much personal preferences a Bagua instructor has, I doubt his Bagua will ever evolve into Hung Gar.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion, whatever you choose to base it on. But what it really comes down to is, "that's the way you feel." Some/many may feel different with more years, experience, and knowledge than you. Than what? I feel it isn't important in reality, you do. Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has at least two, right & wrong.


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## kal

Ok, fair enough.

Back to the original topic, these links should illustrate what James McNeils style the he calls Splashing Hands looks like.

I would be interested to hear if any of these look like what you saw Tiny Lefiti doing.



> Here are the 10 Browns:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the 4 Corners form:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLZqI...related&search=
> 
> Notice how in the 4 conrners form, there is a lot of shuffling on the spot, where the upper body and spine do not really move, but the feet shuffle on the (imaginary!) axes of a cross on the ground.
> 
> And here is a description of the syllabus of the Splashing Hands style:
> http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/syll...dsyllabus.html


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## Doc

kal said:


> Ok, fair enough.
> 
> Back to the original topic, these links should illustrate what James McNeils style the he calls Splashing Hands looks like.
> 
> I would be interested to hear if any of these look like what you saw Tiny Lefiti doing.



Nope! Tiny looked like Ed Parker only bigger and faster. But that is only a point of reference for those that didn't know them both. Truth is, Parker looked like Tiny only smaller. Tiny was his senior.


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## chris lomas

Doc,
Thats certainly interesting as I have some footage of Huame doing some basics whilst teaching a class, as well as my Kung Fu brother Frankie Fick having searched out another Huame black Sash to compare the four corners, and as I have said Sifu McNeil has quite a bit of footage of him and his borthers doing the browns, advances short cross and combination, and they all seem similar in approach? Names are names, but differences are actualities which can be explained, perhaps you could help me out.
C (doing the browns) is only a learner (my student) as I presume is D, (the four corners) who learns under Langdon (my Kung Fu brother in Canada) both could do with more extension and waist mobility, and they are going fast (too fast) for the camera and therefore messing up a bit with the balnced and rooting, but the basic movements seem right to my understanding?
I understand what your saying about martial arts, I always hope to get to the point where I call myself a martial artist rather then 'a chinese stylist' or whatever, however I do not want to be accussed of misrepresenting Huame's approach so I would like to know differences...?
PS www.Manchesterkungfu.com is my website so any inaccuracies I would be especially interested in.
PPS I likes the Huame quote, anymore decent ones 

*****Opps sorry you modified your post as I did mine and put more information down! However I would still be interested in a little more info*****


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## kal

Hello Doc,
I don't think I did a good job of explaining the characteristics of Splashing Hands and especially the shuffling on the cross.
This article I found does a much better job than I could:
http://littlenineheaven.com/gallery/1984/index.html

Another interesting point is that Grandmaster Chiao Chang Hung from Taiwan saw Splashing Hands being taught when he came to visit James McNeil's school in the UK and recognised it. He told James McNeil that he thought it was an extinct style and was surprised to see it being practiced in USA of all places!!! He then told him to look after the system.


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## DavidCC

chris lomas said:


> PS www.Manchesterkungfu.com is my website so any inaccuracies I would be especially interested in.


 
I am curious how you can trace it back to the 1700s at the Shaolin temple, specifically the "Northern Shaolin Temple".  If the "Splashing Hands" taught now is indeed a derivative of Mok Gar, (which clearly it is based on the posts from Doc and also from the histories at your website and others) how does that reconcile with Mok Gar being known as a "southern system"?  Maybe my geography is bad, is the northern shaolin temple in southern china?  It's a big place I suppose that could be possible.

thanks!
-david


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## kal

This "Mok Gar" thing is just a theory. It's not proven.

Lefiti's Splashing Hands teacher, a Nationalist General in Taiwan, told him that the art originated with the Shaolin Temple where it was used to train the temple guards and was kept as a secret or elite art.


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## chris lomas

Also the 'Northern' thing is a webmasters mistake (therefore my responsibility!) as I often say that although the style is southern its footwork (particularly in the later forms) is more Northern in _appearance_, this has been misinterpreted. This will be rectified as soon as the updated website is up (unfortunately the text is embedded in pictures so, aparrently, can't be simply changed).
Best
Chris


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## DavidCC

Thanks, kal, and Chris.


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## kal

I also found this more recent article which does clearly state that the Splashing Hands style is from the northern Shaolin Temple.

http://littlenineheaven.com/gallery/magazine articles 2003/index.html

It's a great article. Very informative. 

I quote:

"_Splashing Hands is truly a system of Shaolin origin. During the 1700s, it was developed and founded at the original Temple, which is located on the north summit of Shon Shanin Hunan province, China."_

Doesn't say anything about Mok Gar.


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## DavidCC

LOL  I've asked about what looks like some confused information on that guys web site, and in order to support what it says you point to a magazine article by the same guy.  Just, from a logical perspective, that doesn't really help.


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## Doc

DavidCC said:


> LOL  I've asked about what looks like some confused information on that guys web site, and in order to support what it says you point to a magazine article by the same guy.  Just, from a logical perspective, that doesn't really help.


My bugaboo is we're really discussing "names." What you call something is just not as important as some want it to be. I realize identities are tied up in these names, but if we spent as much time on trying to do what what we do well, as what we call it, we all might be better. Look at you Dave, you are in Shaolin, yet employ elements of SL-4. In your school I don't think they make a distinction. Something either works or doesn't. But the I can see the point for those "artisitic styles" where identity is important, as opposed to pragmatic self-defense styles where what works is the most important thing.


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## kal

DavidCC said:


> LOL I've asked about what looks like some confused information on that guys web site, and in order to support what it says you point to a magazine article by the same guy. Just, from a logical perspective, that doesn't really help.


 
John Winnen has a website??????


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## DavidCC

I was referring to Winnen's quoting of McNeill...


And of course you remind us of the more important take on it all Doc... works or not works?  that is the question.


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## Doc

DavidCC said:


> I was referring to Winnen's quoting of McNeill...
> 
> 
> And of course you remind us of the more important take on it all Doc... works or not works?  that is the question.


Well historically in the Ark Wong, Kwai Sun Chow, Haumea Lefiti, Ed Parker lineage, this is what the Kenpo's, Combat Mok-Gar, Combat Limalama's/Splashing Hands, are supposed to be about. Ark Wong was a maverick traditionalist, in that he taught traditionally but he would share the information others would not. So he embraced a Tiny, or Ed parker, or even a young black kid, and taught us. But it took the original Chow, Tiny, and Parker to make a modern break in tradition to concentrate on functional self-defense. Much like the originators of the Mog-Gar off-shoot scrapped the cultural acoutrements in favor of pure fighting skills. No meditation, just how to fight effectively. Studying with Ark Wong taught me much, but it was Ed Parker who brought it into focus I could understand and apply. Parker opened up that information for me, defined its application, and made it make sense to me outside of its purposely schrouded historical context.


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## Flying Crane

Doc said:


> My bugaboo is we're really discussing "names."...


 
Keep in mind, folks, that often several separate, distinct systems ended up with the same name in the Chinese arts.

Just for starters, I can list off Tibetan White Crane, Fukien White Crane, and White Crane of Omei, all of which share a similar name but are completely different from each other.  They have a different history, different development, and different technical approach.  I suspect that the originators of these arts focused on different aspects of the animal, developed their techniques on those aspects, and gave it a name that happened to be similar to other methods even tho the arts themselves are not related.

I suspect something similar of Northern Preying Mantis and Southern Preying Mantis.  They are not simply variations of the same art.  They are separate and distinct and do not share a history.

It's entirely possible that there was something known as "Splashing Hands" that comes from the Northern Shaolin Temple around the 1700s, and that could be entirely different from what Doc is referring to that was taught by Ark Wong and Mr. Lefiti, which sounds like it was never really a concrete name of a system but rather a description of what was happening.

Just wanted to add perspective, as some might be comparing apples to oranges...


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:


> Keep in mind, folks, that often several separate, distinct systems ended up with the same name in the Chinese arts.
> 
> Just for starters, I can list off Tibetan White Crane, Fukien White Crane, and White Crane of Omei, all of which share a similar name but are completely different from each other.  They have a different history, different development, and different technical approach.  I suspect that the originators of these arts focused on different aspects of the animal, developed their techniques on those aspects, and gave it a name that happened to be similar to other methods even tho the arts themselves are not related.
> 
> I suspect something similar of Northern Preying Mantis and Southern Preying Mantis.  They are not simply variations of the same art.  They are separate and distinct and do not share a history.
> 
> It's entirely possible that there was something known as "Splashing Hands" that comes from the Northern Shaolin Temple around the 1700s, and that could be entirely different from what Doc is referring to that was taught by Ark Wong and Mr. Lefiti, which sounds like it was never really a concrete name of a system but rather a description of what was happening.
> 
> Just wanted to add perspective, as some might be comparing apples to oranges...



Yeah much like we all know that all "kenpo" with the same name is the same isn't it?


----------



## Flying Crane

Doc said:


> Yeah much like we all know that all "kenpo" with the same name is the same isn't it?


 
Aye, and the Mitose/Chow/Parker rooted kenpo variations are not the only arts that use the name.  How about Okinawan Kempo and Shorinji Kempo for starters?  I think you'd have to look pretty hard to find a concrete link between these, yet there's that pesky word again, makes one think they are all the same thing...


----------



## kal

I'm still waiting for someone to explain which parts of Splashing Hands look like Mok Gar.

Does anything in any of the video clips or articles I posted resemble Mok Gar?


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to explain which parts of Splashing Hands look like Mok Gar.
> 
> Does anything in any of the video clips or articles I posted resemble Mok Gar?



All of the punches, kicks, strikes and footwork, and none of the punches, kicks, strikes, and footwork.

I remember sitting on a Kata Panel at a traditional Karate-do tournament. One of the participants announced a Shotokan form. He was grade poorly by one of the judges. I later asked him why, and he said his punches looked more Kyokushikai than Shotokan. Please! Why are we trying to pick fly sh**t out of pepper?

Let's see now. You want us to compare similarities to 1; and art admittedly that may have the same name but be entirely different depending upon family branch and teachers. And 2; compare that to an art that admittedly has a nebulous origin, and in fact may not be an actual style at all but, simply a slang term for a derivitive of a style that had no real paramters, that turned out to not actually be that style at all, taught by someone who ultimately changed its name at least twice, to another name and style. All of this on top of the muddied origin and characteristics of ancient arts in general.

Clearly the so-called differences between arts and their names is important to you. It would appear it is not as important to others. My lineage is one of pragmatism. I think in modern terms, there are those that study a martial art for artistic sake, and those that study for practicallty. I'm from the practical school, and don't find these discussion, once they get to a certain point, productive. That is why I haven't answered, but perhaps others will engage you in what I feel is a discussion that has run its course. I hope you find whatever you're looking for sir.


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> Let's see now. You want us to compare similarities to 1; and art admittedly that may have the same name but be entirely different depending upon family branch and teachers. And 2; compare that to an art that admittedly has a nebulous origin, and in fact may not be an actual style at all but, simply a slang term for a derivitive of a style that had no real paramters, that turned out to not actually be that style at all, taught by someone who ultimately changed its name at least twice, to another name and style.


 
Well, yes!

I'm not the one who said that it was Mok Gar. The person who identified it as Mok Gar is the one that needs to explain how and why he came to that conclusion. 

If it's as hard to compare similarities as you say, then how did someone come up with the idea that it was Mok Gar in the first place? 



> All of this on top of the muddied origin and characteristics of ancient arts in general.


 
We're not really talking about ancient history here. We're talking about a person (Lefiti) who was alive and teaching only 40 years ago. So if he really created his Splashing Hands out of Mok Gar it should be easy to verify.



> Clearly the so-called differences between arts and their names is important to you. It would appear it is not as important to others. My lineage is one of pragmatism. I think in modern terms, there are those that study a martial art for artistic sake, and those that study for practicallty. I'm from the practical school, and don't find these discussion, once they get to a certain point, productive. That is why I haven't answered, but perhaps others will engage you in what I feel is a discussion that has run its course. I hope you find whatever you're looking for sir.


 
Pragmatism is one thing. 

But there is also the question of integrity and honesty here. You see, when the origin of Splashing Hands and its existence as a style is being questioned, by extension that means that the honesty of either James McNeil or Tiny Lefiti is also being questioned. 

I'm not saying you are wrong. It may be that you are quite right that Splashing Hands never existed. But what I am trying to say is that the answer to the question is important for some people because of the honesty issue.


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> Well, yes!
> 
> I'm not the one who said that it was Mok Gar. The person who identified it as Mok Gar is the one that needs to explain how and why he came to that conclusion.
> 
> If it's as hard to compare similarities as you say, then how did someone come up with the idea that it was Mok Gar in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> We're not really talking about ancient history here. We're talking about a person (Lefiti) who was alive and teaching only 40 years ago. So if he really created his Splashing Hands out of Mok Gar it should be easy to verify.
> 
> 
> 
> Pragmatism is one thing.
> 
> But there is also the question of integrity and honesty here. You see, when the origin of Splashing Hands and its existence as a style is being questioned, by extension that means that the honesty of either James McNeil or Tiny Lefiti is also being questioned.
> 
> I'm not saying you are wrong. It may be that you are quite right that Splashing Hands never existed. But what I am trying to say is that the answer to the question is important for some people because of the honesty issue.



Consider that people represent things as they understand them. In the Ed Parker Kenpo lineage(s) you can talk to 10 of his first generation students on almost any topic and get 10 different answers. None of them are necessarily wrong or dishonest, but are expressing views as they understand what was presented to them through the filters of their own experiences.

Having been in the arts just over 50 years has led me to a point where much of what people have to say about their history is irrelevant. It doesn't take long to determine the validity of their background and the efficacy of their ability.

Bruce Lee was essentially a legitimate couple years student having began his training at 15/16 and arrived in America in the Pacific Northwest at the are of 19 as his own master. Not being knowledgeble, but physically gifted, he continued to learn from everyone he came in contact with. At the tender age of 24 he was giving demos and wowing the traditionalist at Parker's 1st tournament, and few challenged his capabilities. On paper, Lee should have been a bust. In reality he was impressive if not yet knowledgeable.

My point is in the combat arts, honesty is determined by skill and knowledge, not by certificates or lineages. I know people with legitimate exposure to Ed Parker teaching, with genuine rank certificates, and on paper are "honest" to their lineage. In reality, they are awful as martial artists. Unless you're entering into a business contract, I'd take the "honesty" a person shows me on the training floor over "honesty" on the wall any day. Its the nature of the arts. If "paper honesty" is your only barometer, you might miss some really good opportunities to expand on your only knowldge and ability.

*There is no such thing as pure ... when pure knuckles meet pure flesh, that's as pure as it gets. - Ed Parker*

Notice he didn't mention the name of a style or its origin. Life's short - study and train while you can, argue about names and their origin later. But then, that's an old man perspective. If you want to be a history student of the arts, just do that and leave the fighting to the "pure." That was Sifu's perspective and so it was Ed Parker's. Perhaps that is the true origin of what you seek. It didn't matter as much to those who came before you, as it does to you. Maybe you should take their lead.

*"That's my take, but then I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller*


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> Consider that people represent things as they understand them. In the Ed Parker Kenpo lineage(s) you can talk to 10 of his first generation students on almost any topic and get 10 different answers. None of them are necessarily wrong or dishonest, but are expressing views as they understand what was presented to them through the filters of their own experiences.


 
Doc, I see what you are saying, but I think that in this case things are different. It's not a matter of interpretation or filters ... *either Lefiti learned SH from General Wong in Taiwan or he didn't.* I don't see where there is room for filters.



> My point is in the combat arts, honesty is determined by skill and knowledge, not by certificates or lineages. I know people with legitimate exposure to Ed Parker teaching, with genuine rank certificates, and on paper are "honest" to their lineage. In reality, they are awful as martial artists. Unless you're entering into a business contract, I'd take the "honesty" a person shows me on the training floor over "honesty" on the wall any day.


 
Once again I see what you are saying. But let me ask, where do you draw the line? What about frauds like Shaolin-Do or Ashida Kim? If they are good teachers does that mean people should overlook the fact that they're fakes and lied about their backgrounds?


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> Doc, I see what you are saying, but I think that in this case things are different. It's not a matter of interpretation or filters ... *either Lefiti learned SH from General Wong in Taiwan or he didn't.* I don't see where there is room for filters.


No you don't. Because I knew Sifu, and his abilities, I could care less. Clearly he knew something when he showed up to Ark Wong's because Sifu Wong accepted him at an advanced level. What it was or where he learned it has no impact on me whatsoever.


> Once again I see what you are saying. But let me ask, where do you draw the line? What about frauds like Shaolin-Do or Ashida Kim? If they are good teachers does that mean people should overlook the fact that they're fakes and lied about their backgrounds?


I don't draw a line, people like you do. There has always been and always will be frauds in the arts. There is nothing you can do about it. We have a plethora of them in kenpo, a few calling themselves "succesor and Grandmaster." Got an email from an old friend Grandmaster Sifu Doo Wei today who is experiencing the same thing with people using his name and lineage. 

There is nothing you can do about it. Credibility begins and ends with the individual. Some will embrace the frauds, some won't. Either way, it will show up in the end. I remember at Mr. Parker's 1st International Tournament. He invited someone who was considered to be one of the biggest frauds of the time. This guy had wrote books as an expert on just about every art, and therefore had pissed everyone off really good. The "legitimate" guys were outraged at Parker for inviting him. "How could you?" they all asked. "This guy is a fraud and you know it." Parker told them, "Yes this guy may be a fraud but he has a considerable following. And, how is anybody going to know the difference if they don't have anyone to compare him to? He's here and so are his followers. Now, go show people how good you are compared to him."

Either you can get all worked up over something you can't do anything about, or you can get better and smarter at what YOU do. It's a choice. I made my choice a long time ago.

-30-


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> What it was or where he learned it has no impact on me whatsoever.


 
Ok, let me put it a different way.

Let's say (hypothetically) that some people arrive here from China and announce that they knew Ark Y Wong from China and they say that they never ever remembered him learning any form of kung fu in China. They say that he invented the whole Ng Ga Kuen system while he was in America, and then fabricated a story about having learned it in China.

Wouldn't you, as a student of his, feel the slightest bit curious to know if this was true or not? 

You are right that it's not going to affect your ability. I agree with you totally. But you mean you wouldn't feel just a bit curious or interested to know what the story behind it was?


----------



## beknar

Here's something I thought about a while back.  If the system is as effective as one thinks it is, if it really is as awesome and the training will make you a Certified Bad-***, why lie about it?

If there was one lie told about it, could there be others?  Could the effectiveness of the system also be in question?  What about the training methods of the teacher?  Does that explain why the teacher never spars with his students?  Maybe it explains why the school NEVER goes to competitions or why they never ever fight other schools of the more 'traditional' brand.

There might be something to the old saying 'where there's smoke, there's fire'.


----------



## Doc

beknar said:


> Here's something I thought about a while back.  If the system is as effective as one thinks it is, if it really is as awesome and the training will make you a Certified Bad-***, why lie about it?
> 
> If there was one lie told about it, could there be others?  Could the effectiveness of the system also be in question?  What about the training methods of the teacher?  Does that explain why the teacher never spars with his students?  Maybe it explains why the school NEVER goes to competitions or why they never ever fight other schools of the more 'traditional' brand.
> 
> There might be something to the old saying 'where there's smoke, there's fire'.


Sparring? Competition? None of the old masters believed in either. Both are modern products, and have never been indicative of any system except those created for that purpose. If that is where you are, then what you're studying is suspect in the tradition.


----------



## beknar

Doc said:


> Sparring? Competition? None of the old masters believed in either. Both are modern products, and have never been indicative of any system except those created for that purpose. If that is where you are, then what you're studying is suspect in the tradition.


 
You're kidding, right?


----------



## Doc

beknar said:


> You're kidding, right?



Funny, I thought you were. But then I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.


----------



## kal

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Chiao Chang Hung recognised Splashing Hands if it was not a style???

He saw it being trained in USA and expressed surprise because he recognised it from Taiwan, but thought that it had died out.

So if it really was not a style, how do you explain GM Chiao recognising it?


----------



## kal

Still waiting ...

Isn't it funny how people are happy to go around saying that Splashing Hands was not a style (i.e. implying that Tiny Lefiti or James McNeil are frauds), but then have no answer when presented with a fact like Chiao Chang Hung recognising the system.


----------



## Flying Crane

Doc said:


> Sparring? Competition? None of the old masters believed in either. Both are modern products, and have never been indicative of any system except those created for that purpose. If that is where you are, then what you're studying is suspect in the tradition.


 

I believe DOC is absolutely correct in this.

Old China certainly had it's share of challenge matches and whatnot, but they had very little in common with today's tournaments and sloppy flailing competition style sparring that so many people seem to think is the grand pinnacle of martial arts training.  Back in old China, a challenge match often meant the loser was either maimed for life or outright killed, and his school was closed permanently in disgrace.  His students might become students of the winner.  In short, the fighting that went on in these challenges was absolutely for real, and the consequences were also.  It was not a game.  And I am sure none of them ever even thought about winning a plastic trophy painted to look like gold...

But for most people, they never took part in these matches.  They simply practiced their art with the purpose of having an effective method of defending themselves from the local criminal element.  This was also often life-and-death serious.


----------



## Flying Crane

beknar said:


> Here's something I thought about a while back. If the system is as effective as one thinks it is, if it really is as awesome and the training will make you a Certified Bad-***, why lie about it?


 

Time for another check on perspective.

Chinese martial arts in particular are sort of interesting for the oral history that they pass on.  If you look at the traditions passed down in various of the arts, they make for some pretty impressive claims, so far as legacy and lineage and events go.

But I think much of this oral history is subject to being taken with a grain of salt.  Seems like everyone wants to link the origins of their art to either a famous person or a mystic of some kind.  They all trace their roots to the Shaolin Temple, or a famous General from 1000 years ago, or a wandering and mysterious daoist monk who appeared out of the mists to pass on his knowledge before disappearing again, never to be seen.  And nobody thought to get his name before he went...

Nobody wants to consider the possibility that their art was actually developed by the local butcher.  Or the trash collector.  Or the tax collector.  Or a simple soldier in the army.  The fact that the art is very effective should be enough, but often that is not the case.  So they make up these stories that really cannot be verified or disproved, and it lends a certain mystical respect to their art.  And once these stories have been passed on for a few generations, it becomes "truth".  

In short, people have reasons for lying.  The funny thing is tho, that doesn't exactly make it untrue either.  Again, it's just a matter of perspective.

So give this some thought, and think about all the fantastic stories you have heard over the years.  It might add perspective to some things...


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> Still waiting ...
> 
> Isn't it funny how people are happy to go around saying that Splashing Hands was not a style (i.e. implying that Tiny Lefiti or James McNeil are frauds), but then have no answer when presented with a fact like Chiao Chang Hung recognising the system.



Don't know McNeil. Did know Lefiti. Any implication that I suggested he was a fraud would be a serious stretch and damages the little bit of credibility you had left. Now you have none. McNeil I don't know one way or another, and don't care. He doesn't teach me.

Isn't it funny how people like to treat things they HEARD as facts that favor their postition? Didn't know you were such good friends with Chiao Chang Hung, and that he told you personally he "recognized the system."

Up to this point I've been rather benign in this discussion, stating my positions clearly without casting aspersions at, or on anyone and leaving you to your own delusions and predilictions of preference and beliefs. I ignored you because no matter how many ways you ask the question, the answer is not going to favor your position. You however, continue to want to force your position on others, and appear to not be satisfied with answers and want to restate questions over and over until you get the answer you want, that's fine. I have grand children who do the same. But now that you've drifted into inferring that I've said something I haven't about someone whom I've had great respect, you have placed yourself squarely in the kook camp of credibility. Now, that is probably as important to you, as the convoluted history of a bunch of splinter-off-shoot-interpretations-and personal preferences- arts are to me. If you want to prove the credibility of your teacher, (and I say your because I already know of the others, only YOURS is in question), do so on the training floor by being credible. If you can't do that, then the rest doesn't matter in my opinion. If that's not your preference, then the next time you're confronted physically, recite your teachers history and lineage, and badger the guy until he agrees with you that your teacher is one hell of a swell guy.


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> But now that you've drifted into inferring that I've said something I haven't about someone whom I've had great respect, you have placed yourself squarely in the kook camp of credibility.


 
LOL!

First of all I wasn't only referring to you. I am referring to *all* those people out there that keep on claiming that Splashing Hands isn't a genuine style and state that it is actually Mok Gar or Lima Lama or Hawaiian Lua or Prof Chow Kempo or god knows what. The theories just never stop coming ...

But when you actually ask these people (not just you) to explain and back up their hypotheses then they never do.

And no, you never actually directly explicitly said that Tiny Lefiti was a fraud. But when you say that Splashing Hands was never a real style then that contradicts what Lefiti said. And by extension, that would mean he was lying.



> Did know Lefiti. Any implication that I suggested he was a fraud would be a serious stretch


 
Remember, he said that he learned the style in Taiwan from a KMT general. You can't BOTH be right! 

Either Lefiti was telling the truth, in which case you are wrong, or Lefiti was lying, in which case you are right.

There is a name (Zan shou quan) and Chinese characters for the system, as well as a history dating to the Shaolin Temple guards. If you are right about Splashing Hands not being a style, then this would mean the name, Chinese characters and the history were all fabricated by someone, yes or no?

Finally, please stop bringing the whole "prove it on the training floor" story into it. This is a strawman -- nobody's physical ability is being discussed here.


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> But when you say that Splashing Hands was never a real style then that contradicts what Lefiti said. And by extension, that would mean he was lying.


I didn't know you knew "Tiny," or are you using "hearsay" again?


> Finally, please stop bringing the whole "prove it on the training floor" story into it. This is a strawman -- nobody's physical ability is being discussed here.


You still misunderstand. I'm not questioning anyones ability or knowledge at all. I just think energy is better spent on the things that really matter in what the "martial" arts are all about. Thanks for your civility. I appreciate it.


----------



## Flying Crane

kal said:


> LOL!
> 
> There is a name (Zan shou quan) and Chinese characters for the system, as well as a history dating to the Shaolin Temple guards. If you are right about Splashing Hands not being a style, then this would mean the name, Chinese characters and the history were all fabricated by someone, yes or no?


 
Going back to my post earlier post, Shaolin Temple Guards, as well as Imperial Guards is another common story in the history of many arts.  Sounds impressive, don't it?  That's why they like to work that into their history somewhere...

I dunno anything about splashing hands or mok gar, or lima lima or lua or Mr. Lefiti or any of the other things being tossed around here.  But I have tried to give some perspective in a couple of posts, I suggest you go back and re-read them and give them some contemplation.  you might start to see the bigger picture.

You may be truly practicing something known as "Splashing Hands", and it may have nothing to do with Mr. Chapel or Mr. Lafiti or any of the others.  I don't think you are gonna sway anyone here one way or the other, and it really doesn't matter 'cause at some point you are just trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.  Maybe it's time to let it go.


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> I didn't know you knew "Tiny," or are you using "hearsay" again?


So are you saying that Tiny Lefiti *didn't* claim to have learned the style from a general Wong in Taiwan?


----------



## kal

Flying Crane said:


> Chinese martial arts in particular are sort of interesting for the oral history that they pass on. If you look at the traditions passed down in various of the arts, they make for some pretty impressive claims, so far as legacy and lineage and events go.
> 
> But I think much of this oral history is subject to being taken with a grain of salt. Seems like everyone wants to link the origins of their art to either a famous person or a mystic of some kind. They all trace their roots to the Shaolin Temple, or a famous General from 1000 years ago, or a wandering and mysterious daoist monk who appeared out of the mists to pass on his knowledge before disappearing again, never to be seen. And nobody thought to get his name before he went......


 
Good points ... but IMO there is a difference in this case.

Yes, many Chinese styles (Wing Chun, Tai chi, etc.) have origin myths that are probably just myths. 

But here's the thing ... at least they are without a doubt 100% Chinese styles and still have a reasonable history and provenance to them. 

With Splashing Hands however, there appears to be the suggestion that it's not even a Chinese style and was made up in the 20th century in the USA.


----------



## Flying Crane

kal said:


> Good points ... but IMO there is a difference in this case.
> 
> Yes, many Chinese styles (Wing Chun, Tai chi, etc.) have origin myths that are probably just myths.
> 
> But here's the thing ... at least they are without a doubt 100% Chinese styles and still have a reasonable history and provenance to them.
> 
> With Splashing Hands however, there appears to be the suggestion that it's not even a Chinese style and was made up in the 20th century in the USA.


 
I made a suggestion a few days ago that often more than one system ends up with the same name.  White Crane comes to mind, as well as Preying Mantis.  Several systems use these names, and they are completely separate and were never connected to each other.

It's entirely possible this also happened with Splashing Hands.  there may well be a historical Chinese system known as Splashing Hands.  Apparently Mr. Lefiti also used the term to describe what he was doing at one point, but there may actually be no connection to the Chinese system that went by that name.  These things happen.  The name is useful and descriptive so it gets applied in more that one case.  

I don't know the truth of it, I'm just suggesting another reasonable possibility.


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> So are you saying that Tiny Lefiti *didn't* claim to have learned the style from a general Wong in Taiwan?



What I'm saying is you wouldn't know either way. You place a lot of faith in what others have told you, and assume they are true, unless of course they "heard" differently than you. I'll leave you with this thought from Lefiti.

"Assumptions are the mother of all f**ck ups." and I heard him say it myself.


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> What I'm saying is you wouldn't know either way. You place a lot of faith in what others have told you, and assume they are true, unless of course they "heard" differently than you.


 
OK, so if the General Wong in Taiwan story didn't come from Lefiti, where did it come from?




> I'll leave you with this thought from Lefiti.
> 
> "Assumptions are the mother of all f**ck ups."


 
I didn't know Lefiti had seen Under Siege 2.


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> OK, so if the General Wong in Taiwan story didn't come from Lefiti, where did it come from?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know Lefiti had seen Under Siege 2.



You just proved my point. Your point of reference is a movie. That's happens to be an old Marine Corps saying that predates the movie. Tiny passed away before the movie was made, but he was in the Marines you know. But then again, I guess you really don't. If you take everything as gospel, there is no reason to have a discussion because sooner or later things will contradict each other and you'll believe what you want. So what you should do, is just believe what you want and leave others out of the discussion you're having with yourself.


----------



## jus_dann

and i thought it was a chi kung set


----------



## kal

OK, so if the General Wong in Taiwan story didn't come from Lefiti, where did it come from?


----------



## chris lomas

As far as the history of this system goes, I have gone as far into it as I care to, I have nothing objectively conclusive (either way). However, I am happy with the system, have learn't plenty of others to compare and contrast it with and it comes out very favourably. As a method of learning to fight and continue to evolve as a fighter I find it second to none. 

However regarding the GM Chiao Chang Hung occurance, I was not there however I have spoken to several Kung Fu brothers who were (and have no vestage in the system) and they all confirm that it happened. However Chiao did not know it as _Splashing Hands_ but as by a different name (I forget what he called it).

I am absoulutely sure that GM Huame Lefiti with (as Seeming Ma recently told me) Ark Yue Wong's help, expanded, eleborated on _and _stripped the system down and surely added some of his previous martial arts in as well as a large dollop of his soul (anyone who practices a system hard and long enough understand this!). However Chiao probably recognised certain core motions. 

I tend to think the Browns, sections & four corner form come from Taiwan, the advances and other forms show a switch in tactics and stresses and I feel (am actually pretty sure) come from GM Ark Yuey Wong.

As I said earlier I have learnt some Mok Gar from other sources and cannot see similarities however we are again talking about labels. If anyone can point me to Mok sources similar to Splashing Hands I would be fasinated (the closest I have seen is the Choy-Mok style, which has a few (a very few) similar moves). Also Ark Yuey Wong taught a Mok form, but it was nothing like Splashing Hands, can anyone who believes it was Mok derived explain this? (genuine questions).

As for sparring, Docs right on. All the very old timers I have met did not stress this. If you are unsure about this do a little research of 99% of asian martial arts prior to the 60s. I spent years stressing sparring and still find it a useful training tool, however it can also develop deficiencies in the spirit/immediacy of the response. It took me years to realise this so I do not expect everyone to agree.

Best
Chris


----------



## Doc

chris lomas said:


> As far as the history of this system goes, I have gone as far into it as I care to, I have nothing objectively conclusive (either way). However, I am happy with the system, have learn't plenty of others to compare and contrast it with and it comes out very favourably. As a method of learning to fight and continue to evolve as a fighter I find it second to none.
> 
> However regarding the GM Chiao Chang Hung occurance, I was not there however I have spoken to several Kung Fu brothers who were (and have no vestage in the system) and they all confirm that it happened. However Chiao did not know it as _Splashing Hands_ but as by a different name (I forget what he called it).
> 
> I am absoulutely sure that GM Huame Lefiti with (as Seeming Ma recently told me) Ark Yue Wong's help, expanded, eleborated on _and _stripped the system down and surely added some of his previous martial arts in as well as a large dollop of his soul (anyone who practices a system hard and long enough understand this!). However Chiao probably recognised certain core motions.
> 
> I tend to think the Browns, sections & four corner form come from Taiwan, the advances and other forms show a switch in tactics and stresses and I feel (am actually pretty sure) come from GM Ark Yuey Wong.
> 
> As I said earlier I have learnt some Mok Gar from other sources and cannot see similarities however we are again talking about labels. If anyone can point me to Mok sources similar to Splashing Hands I would be fasinated (the closest I have seen is the Choy-Mok style, which has a few (a very few) similar moves). Also Ark Yuey Wong taught a Mok form, but it was nothing like Splashing Hands, can anyone who believes it was Mok derived explain this? (genuine questions).
> 
> As for sparring, Docs right on. All the very old timers I have met did not stress this. If you are unsure about this do a little research of 99% of asian martial arts prior to the 60s. I spent years stressing sparring and still find it a useful training tool, however it can also develop deficiencies in the spirit/immediacy of the response. It took me years to realise this so I do not expect everyone to agree.
> 
> Best
> Chris


Smart man who uses his energy wisely, and concentrates on his art and lets the incidentals playout as they will. I bet you're pretty good too. 

For the record there's sparring, and then there's "sparring." The sparring we did in the old days was a focused street technique sparring that forced you to concentrate on skills, where points were not a part of the equation. Point Competition sparring promotes and teaches bad habits and ineffective applications. Ark Wong called these sparring techniques "dances."


----------



## kal

chris lomas said:


> I tend to think the Browns, sections & four corner form come from Taiwan,


 
I think these things ... browns, sections, 4 corners ... are the key. It would be great to somehow trace these techniques back to Taiwan and possibly even find someone still practicng them today.

Other points that would be interesting to explore are:
- Who was the general in Taiwan?
- What did the general call his style?
- Who else did he teach it to, and are any of them still around today?
- What was the general's connection with Ark Y Wong?


----------



## DavidCC

kal said:


> Still waiting ...
> 
> Isn't it funny how people are happy to go around saying that Splashing Hands was not a style (i.e. implying that Tiny Lefiti or James McNeil are frauds), but then have no answer when presented with a fact like Chiao Chang Hung recognising the system.


 
I don't think anyone is implying that Tiny Lefiti was a fraud... however, what Doc rememebrs from the time he spent training with Mr. Lefiti seems to contradict the stories now being told... and as far as I know only one person in this thread has first hand experience with any of the principles.  I don't think it has to come down to "Doc is right or McNeil is a liar" although that seems to be where you want to take it... 

So, since I don't think anyone wil ever be able to prove conclusively, to the satisfactiopn of everyone involved, I've decided, for me, that it is completely useless (for me) to pursue that line of conversation any more.  Your Mileage May Vary.


----------



## kal

DavidCC said:


> I don't think it has to come down to "Doc is right or McNeil is a liar"


 
It would indeed be nice if this were so ... However, unfortunately there are too many things that Doc says that are directly contradictory to what James McNeil says.

Check out this FAQ for example:
http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/FAQ/FAQ Splashing Hands.html

Here are just a couple of things that are directly counter to what Doc says. I have underlined the parts that are contradictory.



> *Is Splashing Hands a traditional style as I have never heard of it?*
> 
> Yes it is a traditional style. See historyfor more information. If one compares it to other styles of Kung Fu the hands resemble some Tongbei/piqua systems, the power generation is similar to Baji crossed with white crane, the footwork is similar to Northern Preying Mantis systems. The shuffle is, as far as I know, unique to the system though it has similarities to the 'twisted cat stance' and the 'goat catcher' stances found in some systems.
> 
> Like any good system it is a 'complete' theory with a response to any attack stemming from a few basic concepts (ie it is not just a hash of many techniques but a method of power generation structure round unique usage of Kung Fu principles). Many systems of Kung Fu were relatively unknown, and many have died out. Whether a system survived was often not based on whether it was effective or not but whether historically a Master opened a school or not . Indeed often systems died out because a Master felt they were too effective to pass on to students.
> 
> Splashing Hands was learn t by Huame Lefiti in Taiwan from a  former General. Upon completion of his training  he was sent to Ark Yuey Wong  to continue training. It is a relatively unknown style as  Master Lefiti was the first person to openly teach the style to the general public opening his school in the early 60s. At the time he taught he would have gained nothing saying it was Kung Fu as this was before the West had been widely exposed to Chinese Martial arts and the term meant nothing to over 99% of the population. For the most part it was often known as Lefiti Kung Fu as he name was well known in the area so it sold on that basis - not the 'Kung Fu' aspect. His teaching and awesome skills are reported to have had quite an affect on Ed Parkers developing American Kempo and the Association of Martial Artists who eventually formulated the Lima Lama system.
> 
> In his lifetime Huame awarded seven black sash grades in Splashing Hands, however several of those individuals died and the others no longer practice the system. To our knowledge Master McNeil (my teacher) is the last teacher to know and teach  the complete system.
> 
> *Is it a complete system?*
> 
> Yes it contains unique Kung development skills, short fighting patterns, slow and fast forms, sinew strengthening exercises, hard qigong methods, sensitivity drills/patterns and much more. It is based on very simple ideas yet opened out to become a very comprehensive, all encompassing, system. See syllabus
> 
> *Why do you use the western term for the system? Why not the Chinese?*
> 
> This is for several reasons. The first is that it is simply easier. Nowadays most practitioners are Western and the name has meaning to us in English. If I were practicing tiger style I would be more likely to refer to it as 'Tiger' then "Hu Chuan"
> 
> The other reason in that Splashing Hands translates as Zan Shou  which is distinct from Henry Woos art of San Soo (different intonation) which was also taught in LA  and distinct from the Chinese for San Shou ('Free fighting'). However without using the characters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (which most westerners cannot read, and are tricky to reproduce electronically) great confusion would ensue if we used the Pinyin (western Character translation). So it is simpler to use the Western; only this has become a double edged sword as people now tend to believe that we mistranslated the term. Some people think that a Chinese name validities a system, this is ridiculous as Chinese-English dictionaries have been around for some time!



As I have said several times, I am NOT necessarily saying that Doc is wrong. For all I know, he could be 100% right.

The point I am trying to make is that Doc and James McNeil cannot BOTH be right simultaneously. There are just too many direct contradictions.

It would be good to know who is right and also to understand where any untruths (if any) originated from.


----------



## DavidCC

"Splashing Hands was learn t by Huame Lefiti in Taiwan from a former General. "

Well, it's got to be one of these 3, just by pure logic:   

Tiny's training in Taiwan was secret (at the time, although eventually he told it to McNeil and gave him permission to tell the whole world), so he just pretended for the benefit of the students at Wong's that "Splashing Hands" was something they just developed based on the Mok Gar they were doing at Ark Wong's, when really it was the Art of the Shaolin Temple Guards.  Not the monks, who were deadly enough, but the Guards, who, I presume, were even _more_ badd a$$ than the monks.

Or, Tiny made up all THAT and told it to McNeil for some reason he wanted him to believe it.

Or McNeil made it up in order to make his style sound more legitimate and authentic.

It would be very hard to prove any of these


----------



## kal

DavidCC said:


> "Splashing Hands was learn t by Huame Lefiti in Taiwan from a former General. "
> 
> Well, it's got to be one of these 3, just by pure logic:
> 
> Tiny's training in Taiwan was secret (at the time, although eventually he told it to McNeil and gave him permission to tell the whole world), so he just pretended for the benefit of the students at Wong's that "Splashing Hands" was something they just developed based on the Mok Gar they were doing at Ark Wong's, when really it was the Art of the Shaolin Temple Guards. Not the monks, who were deadly enough, but the Guards, who, I presume, were even _more_ badd a$$ than the monks.
> 
> Or, Tiny made up all THAT and told it to McNeil for some reason he wanted him to believe it.
> 
> Or McNeil made it up in order to make his style sound more legitimate and authentic.


 
Correct. Good post.

Options (2) or (3)  would mean that Doc is correct.


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> Correct. Good post.
> 
> Options (2) or (3)  would mean that Doc is correct.



For the record, I don't care whether I'm correct or not. I just remember what I remember.


----------



## DavidCC

kal said:


> Correct. Good post.
> 
> Options (2) or (3) would mean that Doc is correct.


 

Actually I think all 3 make you both "correct" whatever that means or is good for LOL


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> Correct. Good post.
> 
> Options (2) or (3)  would mean that Doc is correct.



I'm confused. What exactly did you say Tiny told you?


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> I'm confused. What exactly did you say Tiny told you?


 
Tiny didn't tell me anything. 

However, Tiny's student, James McNeil, has written that Tiny learned Splashing Hands froma  general in Taiwan and that the style originated with the Shaolin Temple guards in the 1700s.

Either he is right or you are right about the origin of Splashing Hands (and indeed its very existence as as style.)


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> Tiny didn't tell me anything.
> 
> However, Tiny's student, James McNeil, has written that Tiny learned Splashing Hands froma  general in Taiwan and that the style originated with the Shaolin Temple guards in the 1700s.
> 
> Either he is right or you are right about the origin of Splashing Hands (and indeed its very existence as as style.)



You said, that he said, that he said, so you say, one of us must be wrong. I submit to argue such a definitive point from so vague a position is counter-productive and borders on fanaticism or cultism. 

Some have given you a plausible explanation that avoids such a "if he is right, then he must be wrong" position that you have no rational reason to assume. 

Be careful arguing the correctness of undocumented history of which you have no first person knowledge, especially when they occurred before you were born. You take the chance of soiling the integrity of many people who have more credibility in these matters than you do sitting on the sidelines of history, pointing fingers for your own reasons or agenda.

Or put another way, I was there and personally knew Sifu Lefiti and many of his students, met James McNeil, studied with Ark Wong, Ed Parker, and I still don't know or have a definitive answer, just personal memories of what was said and done through the filters of my own eyes and experience of the time. If I'm unwilling to take that stance, than you should be working on your art in quiet and hushed tones of humility, before we stop wondering about McNeil, and start looking at you.


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> Be careful arguing the correctness of undocumented history of which you have no first person knowledge,


 
I am not arguing the correctness of any one side. I keep on telling you that.

At this time, I have no idea WHICH version is correct, so I can not argue the correctness of any of them.



> especially when they occurred before you were born.


 
I wasn't born in Biblical times either, but that doesn't mean that I don't know that there is a contradiction between what the 3 main Abrahamic religions say.


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> At this time, I have no idea WHICH version is correct, so I can not argue the correctness of any of them.


no, but you do insist that only one can be correct.


> I wasn't born in Biblical times either, but that doesn't mean that I don't know that there is a contradiction between what the 3 main Abrahamic religions say.


Now I know where you're really coming from. Enjoy.


----------



## kal

???


----------



## kal

Doc, I am really confused now.

I read an older post of yours (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269907&postcount=13)
where you state that Ark Wong was "the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America"

This seems to be different from what you have been saying in the present thread. Can you hep me understand what you mean?



> I actually began studying under Grandmaster Ark Yuey Wong in the late fifties. I was introduced into a very closed culture by a schoolmate who happened to be his nephew, Douglas Wong now Grandmaster himself of White Lotus and Sil-Lum and a good friend. His other nephew is Curtis Wong founder and publisher of Inside Kung Fu magazine.
> 
> The school at that time was located in the Los Angeles Chinatown at 302 Ord Street, around the corner from the Won Kok Chinese Restaurant. (All the seniors have eaten there at one time or another with Ed Parker Sr.) It was also up the street from Bruce Lee&#8217;s &#8220;secret&#8221; LA Chinatown Kwoon at 628 College Street on the other side of Broadway. It also at one time was on Daly Street, which is also basically &#8220;around the corner.&#8221;
> 
> *Although GM Wong was the acknowledged head of Five Animal Qung fu, he also was the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America.* It is here where the legendary Haumea &#8220;Tiny&#8221; Lefiti landed with a letter from his original teacher when he was discharged from the Marine Corp. &#8220;Tiny&#8221; was older than Parker but they shared Polynesian Roots and a military kinship because he too had served in the coast guard. Parker however was lucky enough to be stationed in Hawaii which allowed him to continue training with Chow and receive his black belt in Kenpo, Jiu-jitsu, and karate-do while still in the military.
> 
> The Chinese influences are great in many areas, from a number of sources. The earlier foray into Chinese Arts saw Ed Parker Sr. beginning to emulate in many ways his Samoan Senior at Ark Wong&#8217;s. Having a similar body build made Parker very comfortable with the explosive handwork of &#8220;Splashing Hands&#8221; he saw with &#8220;Tiny.&#8221; To put it mildly, &#8220;Tiny&#8221; was a monster who had himself, a great deal of influence on martial artists in Southern California. Consider him a bigger, stronger and yes, faster Ed Parker and you have &#8220;Tiny&#8221; at that stage of Parker&#8217;s development. Ultimately, &#8220;Tiny&#8221; left to join Ed Parker&#8217;s black belt Tino Tuiolosega in the formation of the original &#8220;Lima Lama&#8221; organization at Parker&#8217;s suggestion. This influenced others like the late Sal Esquivel to spend time at Ark Wong&#8217;s as well. Danny Inosanto also was no stranger to Ark Wong&#8217;s school before leaving to be with Parker, before going on the road once again with Bruce Lee and also studying Kali and Silat.
> 
> Make no mistake. Ed Parker was a student of Ark Wong, and although he spent time with many Chinese Masters, Ark Wong was probably the biggest Chinese influence with Five Animal and *Splashing Hands*. Even more than his relationships with James (Wing) Woo, or Lau Bun who was his primary Hung Gar influence. Ark Wong contributed &#8220;sets&#8221; and critical information. Lau Bun taught the initial Hung Gar and Choi Li Fut forms like &#8220;Tiger and the Crane,&#8221; James Woo provided the majority of the historical information for Parker&#8217;s &#8220;Secrets of Chinese Karate,&#8221; and it was the source of discourse that caused them to separate with two of Parker&#8217;s first black belts leaving with Woo. But James Woo collaborated on and provided the Two-Man Set that came to be known as the &#8220;Book Set,&#8221; as well as other forms. James Woo also taught Taiji Quon in Parker&#8217;s school for a period of time.
> 
> The &#8220;Star Block&#8221; was a variation on a Five Animal Blocking Routine, and was the beginning of all &#8220;sets.&#8221; The original &#8220;Finger Set&#8221; followed it almost immediately. Ark Wong was a major influence on Parker and is also the root of his understanding of structural integrity, internal energy, and nerve applications that I use today.
> 
> In all honesty although I studied with Ark Wong for several years, it was not until I actually met the legendary Ed Parker did he begin to explain what I had learned in a manner that I could really understand. I came to him with a great deal of information, but not truly understanding the applications because it was out of context until the &#8220;Kahuna&#8221; began to enlighten me as a wide eyed seventeen year old.
> 
> The Chinese martial arts community was a &#8220;closed shop,&#8221; with real information not generally taught to outsiders, and for the most part still is. They liked and embraced Ed Parker and even expressed their feelings of how much they liked him to his son after he passed. I was lucky to have a good friend named Douglas Wong.
> 
> Parker never really left &#8220;Chinese Kenpo,&#8221; but he Americanized it for his own consumption and personal art, and than created a commercial version for the vast majority of his students from the seventies on. Unfortunately, the complexities of the Chinese Sciences are not easily taught, nor were they intended to be, in general, available to most. That hasn&#8217;t changed. The level of knowledge required to teach is extradordinary. Although most lay the label of commercialization of kenpo at the feet of Ed Parker, it was actually the Tracy&#8217;s who started first and at least initially arguably more successfully.
> 
> If I were to do Ed Parker's personal tree, it would be Chow, Wong, Lefiti, with contributions by various others.
> 
> Although Ark Wong, Haumea Lefiti, and Ed Parker Sr., are no longer with us, James Wing Woo is alive and well to my knowledge.


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> Doc, I am really confused now.
> 
> I read an older post of yours (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269907&postcount=13)
> where you state that Ark Wong was "the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America"
> 
> This seems to be different from what you have been saying in the present thread. Can you hep me understand what you mean?



Yes you are, and probably destined to stay that way unless someone chooses to interpret what has been written so far. I nominate Flying Crane.


----------



## kal

OK, well in the meantime can you tell me what you meant by an acknowledged master of Splashing Hands?


----------



## kal

Still waiting ...


----------



## Flying Crane

Doc said:


> ...I nominate Flying Crane.


 
oooooohhhhh, I ain't got no dog in this race...:erg: :rofl:


----------



## kal

I know Flying Crane.

But I wish someone would shed some light on how Ark Wong could be "the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America" while at the same time Splashing Hands never existed as a style !!!


----------



## JamesB

kal said:


> I know Flying Crane.
> 
> But I wish someone would shed some light on how Ark Wong could be "the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America" while at the same time Splashing Hands never existed as a style !!!


 
From reading this thread (and coming in very late) I would say that it would be quite possible for someone to be a master at a methodology (splashing hands), but for that methodology to not exist as a strict style. 

It's like saying "sticky hands" or "push hands" is a style - it is not, it is a methodology shared by lots of different systems. Someone could be a push-hands master, but they would be a student of Chen-style Taijiquan (for example). I would propose that the same goes for "splashing hands" (this is Doc's argument if I understand correctly). Splashing-Hands was a training vehicle used to highlight and focus upon an approach found in this other system being mentioned (Mok Gah or something like that?)

OK so now "Splashing Hands" is being called a system and is taught as such by Mr McNeil. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with that. What I believe Doc is saying is that Splashing Hands was not referred to as a style 'back then' within the environment he found himself in. So what is being taught today as splashing-hands is very likely much broader in scope than what splashing-hands meant many years ago to those people - the term 'splashing hands' that used to describe a methodolgy is now being used to refer to an entire system that very likely incorporates other methodologies too. 

It's just a name. I kind of like it actually.


----------



## Flying Crane

JamesB said:


> From reading this thread (and coming in very late) I would say that it would be quite possible for someone to be a master at a methodology (splashing hands), but for that methodology to not exist as a strict style.
> 
> It's like saying "sticky hands" or "push hands" is a style - it is not, it is a methodology shared by lots of different systems. Someone could be a push-hands master, but they would be a student of Chen-style Taijiquan (for example). I would propose that the same goes for "splashing hands" (this is Doc's argument if I understand correctly). Splashing-Hands was a training vehicle used to highlight and focus upon an approach found in this other system being mentioned (Mok Gah or something like that?)
> 
> OK so now "Splashing Hands" is being called a system and is taught as such by Mr McNeil. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with that. What I believe Doc is saying is that Splashing Hands was not referred to as a style 'back then' within the environment he found himself in. So what is being taught today as splashing-hands is very likely much broader in scope than what splashing-hands meant many years ago to those people - the term 'splashing hands' that used to describe a methodolgy is now being used to refer to an entire system that very likely incorporates other methodologies too.
> 
> It's just a name. I kind of like it actually.


 

I think this is probably a pretty good suggestion.  I can see a lot of sense in it.


----------



## kal

> From reading this thread (and coming in very late) I would say that it would be quite possible for someone to be a master at a methodology (splashing hands), but for that methodology to not exist as a strict style.





Well here are some more puzzling statements:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=96053&postcount=49



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Tiny Lefiti - Splashing Hands, Five Animal
> (not Muk Gar)


 
and 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=96442&postcount=56



			
				yilisifu said:
			
		

> Splashing Hands just recently made it into the martial arts magazines via James McNeil....?


 


			
				Doc said:
			
		

> No Splashing Hands has been around as long as I can remember (I'm older than you).


 
And
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=100637&postcount=61



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Thus Grandmaster Wong known for &#8220;Five Animal&#8221; also was well versed in Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, *Splashing Hands*, and Taiji.


 
Note how Splashing Hands is listed along with other styles such as Hung Gar, Choy li fut. Not other methodologies (like push hands), but other styles.

This was in 2003. But somehow, between 2003 and 2007, Splashing Hands suddenly never existed as a style. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.


----------



## Doc

kal said:


> Well here are some more puzzling statements:



I seriously suspect you're destined to be dazed and confused no matter what. The subject has been explained as well as you're going to get. Accept it or not, is your choice. Let's see now, what was that definition of insanity?


----------



## kal

Doc said:


> Let's see now, what was that definition of insanity?


Claiming that taijiquan and kempo are the same perhaps?


----------



## Rabu

Kempo and Taichi Chuan being the same thing....

I remember talking to Larry Mangone about his study and desire to create 'Tai Kempo'.  A fusion of Taichi Chuan and Shaolin Kempo.

Maybe I misremember the individuals name, but I do remember he wore a lavender Gi....


----------



## DavidCC

This is the last time I am going to reply to you kal because now I can see the limitations of your thought process:



kal said:


> Claiming that taijiquan and kempo are the same perhaps?


 
Is that really all you got out of that thread?

the answer is very early in that thread:
"taught from a similar viewpoint of body mechanics before technique" (not an exact quote).  

But the fact that you totally missed that tells me a lot about your agenda; or maybe I shouldn't make assumptions, maybe this is informing me aobut your reading comprehension skills LOL.

so, what would you like to accomplish with this discussion?  I'm curious...


----------



## Doc

DavidCC said:


> This is the last time I am going to reply to you kal because now I can see the limitations of your thought process:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that really all you got out of that thread?
> 
> the answer is very early in that thread:
> "taught from a similar viewpoint of body mechanics before technique" (not an exact quote).
> 
> But the fact that you totally missed that tells me a lot about your agenda; or maybe I shouldn't make assumptions, maybe this is informing me aobut your reading comprehension skills LOL.
> 
> so, what would you like to accomplish with this discussion?  I'm curious...



Clearly, he's got an ax against McNeil. I've seen this before disguised as a "search for truth." The tip off is when you answer and they rephrase and ask again. It's an old litigation trick. "Because I didn't get the answer I'm looking for, - Let me ask it another way."


----------



## kal

edit


----------



## kal

edit: not worth it.


----------



## scythe1969

I was enjoying the reminiscing of the history more than the goal to be accurate in this thread... This post is mostly intended for Chris and partially for Merc.

Chris, I am currently being trained in Limalama by Master George Lugo. Master Lugo was a direct student of Master Tino and did know Master Haumea. If I understand the connection, my teacher would have been an adolescent/early 20s during the time period. He was mostly known by his nickname - 'Shoshi' back then. He learned 'Splashing Hands' (I can't attest to how much or the origin of the style, I just use the term because that's what 'Tiny' called it) from 'Tiny' and occasionally will teach us the forms and some of his 'browns' to us during our training. From what I've been told, the browns (don't know why they're named that either) were part of the Limalama training back then and each student had to come up with 12 of their own browns and in turn learn the 12 from each of the other students. Because of this there are certain browns that take on the style of the original student and Master Lugo says that in most cases will also identify the teacher when you see them performed. Master Lugo has taught us his browns and we continue to learn the others as created/interpreted by Sal, Jr., Richard, Tiny, and the other students/teachers of the time. I have seen some of the butterfly forms as well and I must say that they intriguing and quite powerful.

In any case, I just wanted to share some information for your research. I'm sure that if you had more questions, Master Lugo would be happy to fill in his knowledge and personal stories. I also have some really old footage of Tiny with his students training in a park and Tiny doing some form work in what appears to be a small room/dojo. If you would be interested in getting copies of this just let me know... they are, in a word, priceless.

I have always been fascinated by what I've seen of the splashing hands and I definitely see their influence in the Limalama. I hope that in the near future I will be able to introduce more of it into my training.

Regards,

Jeff


----------



## chris lomas

Jeff,
Valuable information for sure. 'Shoshi', I'm sure I have heard that name before robably from Sifu mcNeil. 

From what I've heard Lima Lama in its formation was originally more of an association of Martial Artists who shared stuff rather then a style, but over time it 'evolved' into its own thing, would that chime true to your knowledge of the history? Everyone always says Tino was an amazing martial artist so with him at the helm the art must be superb (being in the UK I have never really seen anything other then clips).

Certainly we have more then one way of doing the browns and Tiny seemed to find Change at the core of his art and would therefore, hopefully, pass that on to his students.

Thank you for your information I really appreciate it. I would love to get some footage if that would be possible (I will of course pay whatever is needed) PM me if that would be okay?
Best
Chris


----------



## scythe1969

Well, I spoke more about the whole time period with Master Lugo last night at training. He was 14/15 when he started training with Master Tino (much younger than I originally thought). He remembers all the original students and his age at the time explains why he calls most of them 'his teachers' even though technically they all would have been students. He has great stories from that time but it also illustrates that the training back then was much harsher and regimented than most of us have ever experienced.

As far as the history of Limalama is concerned... I know what I've been told and I don't claim to be a historian so locking me down to "quotable specifics" may be difficult. I know for sure that it is a conglomerate of the original Polynesian schools that are listed on the website. There is a distinct 'Polynesian Look' (my term) to the forms when they are taught in their original form. In order for us to get some of the subtleties ironed out we have been taught certain Polynesian dance steps to help work on flow. Master Tino had all the original students learn these tribal dances and some of these have forms hidden in the dance steps. There is also strong mixture of Boxing (Master Tino was an incredible boxer); a lot of our footwork (45 shuffle, walk lift, dragon shuffle, etc) has definitive traces of that. Now, the parts that I'm not sure of but have been taught as part of what I would call 'supplementary' techniques in my training are Butterfly, Dragonfly, Splashing hands and Hammer Fist (very similiar to the striking found in Lua). Last but not least there are aspects of 5 animal style Kung-Fu from Ark Wong and his Brown Monks. Predominantly, the Leopard and the Tiger. Again, this is what I've been told - not researched. As a personal note, I tend to be more of a practitioner than a historian...

I would be more than happy to share the various clips I have. My teacher has the original video tapes but I have converted most of them to some form of .mpg file so I'll PM you to work out the details of getting the files over to you. If you're interested in seeing some of the forms that we work on, I can pass on some of those as well (I video tape as much as I can just to have a frame of reference for my own training). There is a distinct difference between what I'm being taught and what is available for viewing on the web. One of the things that the art has had to deal with is its growth without Master Tino and now Limalama has become more of a mash-up of other things (Tae Kwon Do, Kenpo, etc) that were never there at the start. For instance, in its original form there were never any kicks above the waist. We only have 5 kicks and all of them are delivered low or with a stomp... Now that Rudy is back at the helm and the organization is being revitalized I'm hoping that we will be able to get back to the roots of origin. There is a ton of material to be passed on in this wonderful art.

I look forward to more dialog and I'll get the clips prepped for you as soon as I can.

Jeff


----------



## marlon

Doc said:


> I've heard that as well.
> 
> Actually that was between he and Sifu, and neither ever talked about it that I heard.
> 
> I don't really have an understanding of what someone would now call "Splashing Hands." It, for me, was a non-existent style even back in the day. I think the Chinese Arts just like more modern ones suffer from semantical descrepancies in their identity. What I called Splashing Hands was just a nickname, a throw-a-way term from a particular perspective of stripped down teaching of the time for certain elements of Mok-Gar.
> 
> These terms have been influenced by the Japanese mindset where style names actually meant a specific, non-changing "way" of doing something. Whreas in the Chinese Arts it was a reflection of a particular philosophy from a "family style head."
> 
> Both Ark Wong, Jimmy Woo, and Ed Parker all said, "They're all the same." There is this huge body of knowledge, and how you choose to teach it, and what part you choose to focus upon, is why some give it a style name. There was a time when these style names meant more. Now the answer is to talk about philosophy of execution, training, and goals of the teacher. Call it whatever you want, Splashing Hands? Mok-Gar? Kenpo? It's all the same, and none of the same.
> 
> For me, spending an inordinate amount of time trying to tie down a name, is not as important as my continuing education of the science of execution. Some have called what I do different things on different nights based on their own background. Some say kenpo, some say not. Some say Five Animal, some say not. I've even heard Splashing Hands, I say not, but does it really matter. My teacher called it kenpo. But he called all of his work kenpo and it is all different depending upon when you learned, and what he wanted to teach you. So I call what I do, "Kenpo as I learned from my teacher in a method and manner he didn't seem to teach anyone else that I know of." Shortened to SubLevel Four or SL-4 Kenpo. There are elements of all observers recognitions, and why shouldn't it be? There truly is only one correct way to do something physically, so when you do these correct.....
> 
> *"Call any of it what you will, as long as you do it looking up after I knock you down." - Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti*


 


Hello Doc, 
can you or anyone else elaborate on the foot work, please?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

from what i have seen on youtube the footwork seems to be built for one on one fighting and not multiple attackers, could this be why Mr.Parker's foot work is so different.  While striking the SH defender seems to be moving in anticpation of follow up strikes which seems wasted especially if there are multiple attackers.  I notice though that when the SH defender moves in for a skeletal manipulation it looks much more like kempo and the foot works changes in such a manner that it could accomadate a multiple attacker scenario?  Am i misunderstanding this completely?  I have only seen the youtube clips

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Doc

marlon said:


> from what i have seen on youtube the footwork seems to be built for one on one fighting and not multiple attackers, could this be why Mr.Parker's foot work is so different.  While striking the SH defender seems to be moving in anticpation of follow up strikes which seems wasted especially if there are multiple attackers.  I notice though that when the SH defender moves in for a skeletal manipulation it looks much more like kempo and the foot works changes in such a manner that it could accomadate a multiple attacker scenario?  Am i misunderstanding this completely?  I have only seen the youtube clips
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



That's an interesting observation I had not considered, and initially you would seem to be correct. In my contact and also recollections from observing a couple of Limalama black belts who were also students of mine, the quick "drag-step shuffle" appears to be the primary footwork. Very explosive and functional in linear offensive execution.


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## kal

merc said:


> There are untold questions about Sifu Lefiti and his untimely death that remain a secret that deal with some questionable health hazards when performing some technique from this particular art .


Does anyone know what really happened to him? What caused his death? Was it training?


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## Doc

kal said:


> Does anyone know what really happened to him? What caused his death? Was it training?



Heart attack and lifestyle choices, not the arts.


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