# Gas pricing



## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2008)

It was just about three months ago gas was an ever rising 2.25 a gallon. I pissed and moaned and pissed and moaned. Now with gas crossing the 3.50 mark here in Texas, I find myself saying good Lord please bring back the 2.25 cents a gallon gas. Funny how a few months and higher prices efeect our daily perspective on life.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 22, 2008)

Gas just went to $3.69 today here in Alma, small town USA.  I have to wonder why we are paying 4 billion a month to be in the middle east if gas is going to continue to sky rocket like this.


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Gas just went to $3.69 today here in Alma, small town USA. I have to wonder why we are paying 4 billion a month to be in the middle east if gas is going to continue to sky rocket like this.


 
I have to agree, my van cost 72.63 to fill up today and my wife little pontiac took another 27.81 and she had a half of tank of gas. I need a horse and buggy.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 22, 2008)

Yah, gas prices aren't any better here and I recall griping about $2.25 myself but now the BRIGHT side is within a few months or even weeks we'll wish for the $3.60 per gallon prices... :uhyeah: <totally sarcastic> (but not to you Terry!)


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Yah, gas prices aren't any better here and I recall griping about $2.25 myself but now the BRIGHT side is within a few months or even weeks we'll wish for the $3.60 per gallon prices... :uhyeah: <totally sarcastic> (but not to you Terry!)


 
I will agree a couple of months and we will be begging for the 3.59 a gallon.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 22, 2008)

We will easily rise above $4.00 a gallon during the summer.  I would advise anyone that I know to invest in energy stocks.  However, think through these stocks very, very carefully.


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## mrhnau (Apr 22, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I have to agree, my van cost 72.63 to fill up today and my wife little pontiac took another 27.81 and she had a half of tank of gas. I need a horse and buggy.



Don't worry Terry. They will find some kind of "turd disposal tax" they can attach to your horse and buggy. You won't even notice the difference


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## newGuy12 (Apr 22, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> We will easily rise above $4.00 a gallon during the summer. I would advise anyone that I know to invest in energy stocks. However, think through these stocks very, very carefully.



Or manufacturers of paramilitary gear.  There will be a big need for that once the police state comes, due to the collapse of our society.  Once gas reaches a certain critical price, the distribution of food stuffs will fail.  That's when the fun starts -- martial law.

Buy ANYTHING now with US Dollars -- stocks, gold, Euros, anything -- because before long the US Dollars will be worthless -- dump them now.


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> We will easily rise above $4.00 a gallon during the summer. I would advise anyone that I know to invest in energy stocks. However, think through these stocks very, very carefully.


 

I agree, do you have any suggestion at all Brian help a friend. :rofl:


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## FieldDiscipline (Apr 22, 2008)

Keep smiling guys.  Over £5.50 a gallon here.  At two dollars to the pound...


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 22, 2008)

2000  	price of crude oil: $27.39 Adjusted for Inflation: $33.39
2001 	price of crude oil: $23.00 Adjusted for Inflation: $27.29
2002 	price of crude oil: $22.81 Adjusted for Inflation: $26.61
2003 	price of crude oil: $27.69 Adjusted for Inflation: $31.62
2004 	price of crude oil: $37.66 Adjusted for Inflation: $41.84
2005 	price of crude oil: $50.04 Adjusted for Inflation: $53.77
2006 	price of crude oil: $58.30 Adjusted for Inflation: $60.73
2007 	price of crude oil: $64.20 Adjusted for Inflation: $64.92
2008    price of crude oil: $115+

So, here's my question. Since I'm starting to see people stating that we'll top $4 and maybe even hit $5 a gallon by late summer, and no fall drop back expected, what is the cause?

Oil prices have just about doubled in the last year. That's insane. 

Also, gas by year, then rate and inflation adjusted rate info
http://www.fintrend.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Gasoline_inflation_chart.htm


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## MJS (Apr 22, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Gas just went to $3.69 today here in Alma, small town USA. I have to wonder why we are paying 4 billion a month to be in the middle east if gas is going to continue to sky rocket like this.


 
I drove by 2 stations on my way to work and it was the same price you listed.  Another month or so and I'm sure we'll hit $4.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 22, 2008)

Like maybe these or these?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 22, 2008)

In Alma we had two stations selling gas at $3.39.  You would have thought that we had a gas ration situation as the lines were how shall we say incredible.  

Folks I am a very, very positive person but tough times are coming.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 22, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I agree, do you have any suggestion at all Brian help a friend. :rofl:


 
I wish I could help more but would be afraid that I might give you bad advice.  Still my friends in the field keep telling me to do the same.  Energy stocks!


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 22, 2008)

I miss my 55 cent fillups on the local indian res. (1998)


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## theletch1 (Apr 22, 2008)

I was going through the glove box of my work truck today as I dropped it off at the shop and found a fuel receipt from July of 2003.  Diesel was $1.29 per gallon.  I fueled up Friday and paid $4.40 per gallon.  I run through about 60 gallons per day at work.  That puts me at $1320.00 per week.  I just run a local, daily 300 mile run.  The guys that own their own rigs, run 4000 miles a week are catching it hard.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 22, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I was going through the glove box of my work truck today as I dropped it off at the shop and found a fuel receipt from July of 2003.  Diesel was $1.29 per gallon.  I fueled up Friday and paid $4.40 per gallon.  I run through about 60 gallons per day at work.  That puts me at $1320.00 per week.  I just run a local, daily 300 mile run.  The guys that own their own rigs, run 4000 miles a week are catching it hard.


Indeed, my older brother drives OTR in a full sized semi/trailer, at an average of 3-4 K miles a week, and he's fortunate at this time *not* to be an owner/operator, though he at one time considered it, but his company is doing cutbacks on drivers because of these fuel costs. 
Funny how Diesel used to be cheaper than gasoline. 

If Bush wants to go out with the same popularity rating that he held a few days after 9/11 then he'd need to do something about these gas prices and quick. I'm not even going to think about any assistance from Cheney since he's openly admit that he doesn't care about the country at all, the feeling from me is mutual towards him. 
But a summit I think with China that focuses on the fuel costs might be in order. China will soon face the same rising costs (if they aren't already) and will affect their economy. 
Together our two countries can (as the largest consumers) or should get the prices down per barrel. The Euros as well can join in the fight to drive the price per barrel down.


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## Ping898 (Apr 22, 2008)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Keep smiling guys. Over £5.50 a gallon here. At two dollars to the pound...


but in my experience you have much better public transportation at least in the cities than over here....


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## Big Don (Apr 22, 2008)

Ping898 said:


> but in my experience you have much better public transportation at least in the cities than over here....


Public transport is good in other countries for one reason: people use it. Weather by choice or by lack of options, public transportation works in other countries because the public uses it. There have been many public transportation ideas in the US that failed for the one simple reason: No one used it.


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## Kreth (Apr 22, 2008)

And you thought it was just a movie... If you'll excuse me, I need to stock up on ammo.


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## Big Don (Apr 22, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> If Bush wants to go out with the same popularity rating that he held a few days after 9/11 then he'd need to do something about these gas prices and quick.


 Such as? 





> I'm not even going to think about any assistance from Cheney since he's openly admit that he doesn't care about the country at all


 Another baseless accusation? Don't you get tired of making them?





> But a summit I think with China that focuses on the fuel costs might be in order. China will soon face the same rising costs (if they aren't already) and will affect their economy.


 Negotiating with a net importer of fuels is not going to bring prices down. Negotiations with EXPORTERS could help.





> Together our two countries can (as the largest consumers) or should get the prices down per barrel. The Euros as well can join in the fight to drive the price per barrel down.


How? We cannot refuse to buy it and portions of our government will not allow us to drill for and refine our own oil, so how?


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2008)

Kreth said:


> And you thought it was just a movie... If you'll excuse me, I need to stock up on ammo.


 
I was just saying that the other day to my wife, the time is now.


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## Big Don (Apr 22, 2008)

> For instance, in 2004 Exxon Mobil earned more money -- $25.33 billion -- than any other company on the Fortune 500 list of largest corporations. But by another measure of profitability, gross profit margin, it ranked No. 127.


Those bastards!


> Most financial institutions, such as commercial banks, are routinely more profitable than Exxon Mobil was in its third quarter. For example, Exxon Mobil's gross margin of *9.8 cents of profit for every dollar of revenue* pales in comparison to *Citigroup Inc.'s 15.7 cents* in 2004. By percentage of total revenue, banking is consistently the most profitable industry in America, followed closely by the drug industry.


 Lets have a windfall profits tax on banks! 
Article





Oil Industry Taxes Have Outpaced Oil Industry Profits Since 1977
Remember, *ALL costs* incurred by corporations are passed on to the consumer in higher prices.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 22, 2008)

Kreth said:


> And you thought it was just a movie... If you'll excuse me, I need to stock up on ammo.


 
Absolutely that and fuel!


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## Twin Fist (Apr 22, 2008)

the current price is being driven by the price of crude AND the speculators on the commodities market.

The president could, by emergency order, take gasoline OFF the commodities market.

that would drop the price alot right there. But hte government taxes the crap out of gasoline, they LIKE it when the price is high


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## theletch1 (Apr 22, 2008)

The fastest way to drop fuel prices the most precipitously is to kill the fuel tax...both state and federal.  'Course the gubmint wouldn't want to lose their profits any more than anyone else would, I guess.


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## HKphooey (Apr 22, 2008)

I just paid $4.50 for a pint of Guiness.  It is all relative and the price will always go up if we are willing to pay it.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 22, 2008)

The price of gas is directly related to the current weakness of the US Dollar.  The federal reserve has jacked up inflation with the rate cuts and current economic conditions have people dumping USD like smallpox blankets.  Supplies are tightening, but nothing so severe that it would cause these kinds of price hikes.  

Oh, and then there is this...some people say that Oil will be trading at $180 dollars a barrel in the near future.


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## crushing (Apr 22, 2008)

When gas hit $2.00/gal in 1999 (at least here in Michigan) and the price of crude doubled per bbl in just a couple years I gave up getting very emotional about gas prices.  I was actually surprised prices fell below $2 for a little while, then I was surprised again years later when it feel back below $3 for a little while.  It was supposed to hit $4 a couple years ago for July 4th weekend, then again last Christmas and now again for this July 4th.

I think beliefs like that help the speculators drive up futures prices.  I'm hoping that the belief that this pricing bubble is about to explode and the bottom will fall out (like the tech bubble/stock market in 1999) will catch on and this will provide some market correction in the prices.

So don't spread rumors that gas will be $4 by July 4th, start spreading the truth that by July 4th there will be a huge market correction in the price of oil and it's time to short the stuff!


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## MA-Caver (Apr 22, 2008)

Big Don said:


> > Originally Posted by *MA-Caver  *;
> >
> > If Bush wants to go out with the same popularity rating that he held a few days after 9/11 then he'd need to do something about these gas prices and quick.
> 
> ...


Such as getting the taxes down on gasoline at the pumps. Talking with those exporters as you suggested would be a better idea, though I doubt they'll listen as they probably know the moral of the Golden Goose. 


Big Don said:


> > Originally Posted by *MA-Caver  *;
> > I'm not even going to think about any assistance from Cheney since he's openly admit that he doesn't care about the country's opinion at all
> 
> 
> Another baseless accusation? Don't you get tired of making them?


Not really, especially when it comes from the horse's mouth. In a word... "So?" 
[yt]0BeFCOUqsWA[/yt]


Big Don said:


> > Originally Posted by *MA-Caver  *;
> > But a summit I think with China that focuses on the fuel costs might be in order. China will soon face the same rising costs (if they aren't already) and will affect their economy.
> 
> 
> Negotiating with a net importer of fuels is not going to bring prices down. Negotiations with EXPORTERS could help.


We could negotiate with the Saudi's but since we've been showing that we are willing to pay already for their excessive pricing already... why would they lower them. They know we are dependent upon them and thus it is political extortion or blackmail knowing that the government will pay and pass the cost down to us the consumers. So why should they? If we won't buy it someone else will. They don't care as long as their coffers are filled they'll keep charging whatever they want.


Big Don said:


> > Originally Posted by *MA-Caver  *;
> > Together our two countries can (as the largest consumers) or should get the prices down per barrel. The Euros as well can join in the fight to drive the price per barrel down.
> 
> 
> How? We cannot refuse to buy it and portions of our government will not allow us to drill for and refine our own oil, so how?


The people of _this_ country at least DO have the power to tell the government what to do. They need to speak up and fight for it. Dunno about China (or India). Truckers are beginning to protest by not driving and making their deliveries late. This may be a small part but I see a beginning. People will eventually get fed up with it. I know I already am.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 22, 2008)

carver, 
you are using a comment made about opinions on THE WAR and applying it to gas prices?

thats a stretch, by any definition


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## Big Don (Apr 22, 2008)

Not being wholly controlled by polling is bad, according to some. I guess we should elect Hillary, then we can return to a presidency that can't do a damned thing with out an opinion poll. 
We do not live in a direct democracy, where every person's opinion about every subject matters. Whining will not change this. That you are complaining that the Vice President of the United States can and does think for himself is interesting.


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## newGuy12 (Apr 22, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> AND the speculators on the commodities market.
> 
> The president could, by emergency order, take gasoline OFF the commodities market.



_*POINT!*_

<newGuy12 looks at the corner judges...>
red flag, red flag, red flag


*Point goes to Red (Twin Fist)*


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## MA-Caver (Apr 22, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> carver,
> you are using a comment made about opinions on THE WAR and applying it to gas prices?
> 
> thats a stretch, by any definition



The war *is* related to gas prices. 


by the way there is only *1* r in caver ... at the end. :wink1:


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## newGuy12 (Apr 22, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Truckers are beginning to protest by not driving and making their deliveries late. This may be a small part but I see a beginning.


Independent truckers are history, toast.  They just don't know it yet.  This is just part of big corporations (in this case, trucking / freight companies) running out small guys.

If I thought the country could make it through another 4 years, I would hope that McCain would win.  That way the Dems won't have to inherit the wind.  But I seriously don't think we could make it, so the Dems have to take it this time.

And they will, thanks to Cheney and Bush.  They have given us two gifts that you get a LOT of mileage out of:

1) unpopular war
2) unpopular economy

You can spin all of the other talk that you want, just keep your center -- you're gonna get awfully dizzy!


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## Twin Fist (Apr 22, 2008)

the war was already there before 2001 NewGuy, it's just that the presidents before this one didnt fight back


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## MA-Caver (Apr 22, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> the war was already there before 2001 NewGuy, it's just that the presidents before this one didn't fight back


That's because the presidents before didn't have money owed to THEM which they wanted back from Saddam for helping to finance his war against Iran which he lost anyway.


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## Big Don (Apr 22, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> That's because the presidents before didn't have money owed to THEM which they wanted back from Saddam for helping to finance his war against Iran which he lost anyway.


Care to prove that assertion?


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## MA-Caver (Apr 22, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Care to prove that assertion?



Just what I remember seeing on 20/20 a while back.


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## FieldDiscipline (Apr 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> And you thought it was just a movie... If you'll excuse me, I need to stock up on ammo.





terryl965 said:


> *I was just saying that the other day to my wife*, the time is now.





Brian R. VanCise said:


> Absolutely that and fuel!



Great minds think alike.  So was I.


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## Big Don (Apr 23, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Just what I remember seeing on 20/20 a while back.


Typing the word NO would have saved you dozens of keystrokes, and been more honest.


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## punisher73 (Apr 23, 2008)

Just heard on the news that the new Fortune 500 was out and that Exxon posted a $40 BILLION PROFIT this year!  Their net revenue was over 400 billion.  You can't convince me that the little bit more per barrell is costing us that much at the pump when you make that much in profits.


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## MJS (Apr 23, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Just heard on the news that the new Fortune 500 was out and that Exxon posted a $40 BILLION PROFIT this year! Their net revenue was over 400 billion. You can't convince me that the little bit more per barrell is costing us that much at the pump when you make that much in profits.


 
Good points.  Its all about the money.  I'm surprised nobody is looking into price gouging, because IMO, we're being gouged bigtime!


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 23, 2008)

Of course Congress is looking into it. They even called a meeting with Big Oil and had them hold out their wrists so they could lightly tap them again. Gas went up again after the meeting. 

*How Gas Prices Work*
http://money.howstuffworks.com/gas-price.htm

I remember reading something about where OPEC itself prefers oil to be around 50-60 a barrel, as that's what they see as the sweet spot. Speculation and the commodities morons are who have driven the costs way up...one guy even sold at a loss so he could brag he was the one to crack the 100/ line.


Saw this, though I think the rates are from 2005.
http://fabulously40.com/article/2171/Price-of-gas-from-around-the-world/


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## MA-Caver (Apr 23, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Typing the word NO would have saved you dozens of keystrokes, and been more honest.


 To say No would've been a lie. 
I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try to start fights or goad people into it. I have no need for it neither should you.


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## MJS (Apr 23, 2008)

I was reading an article in the paper the other day about the gas prices, and how many people are resorting to riding bicycles to get around.  Certainly a good idea and not only will it save gas, but it'll give people some good exercise.

The down side of that is bad weather, and time of day, to name a few things.  I work 4pm-12am.  I'm not riding a bike at that hour.  Its only Apr. 23 and today its supposed to reach 80.   I love the nice weather, but when its HHH (Hazy, Hot and humid) I'll need a shower by the time I get to my destination.

Small, fuel conservative vehicles?  Yes, thats an option too, but not for everyone.  Carpooling?  Another good option.  Public transportation?  Another option, but a limited one.  

In the end, nothing will happen, the oil companies will get richer, while we pay the price literally.  Oh well....


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## Twin Fist (Apr 23, 2008)

I expect to see a rush to produce the two person only smart cars that get 50+ mpg

mind you, you get passed by a big rigs and it'll blow you off the road if you are driving one, but for in town driving they are the future.

But like I said, Bush could take gasoline off the commodities market and set the price by executive order.

the only people hurt by this action would be the oil companies.

And they dont vote.

screw them


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## newGuy12 (Apr 23, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> the only people hurt by this action would be the oil companies.



And speculators / investors.  Screw them, too.  This is too important.


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## Big Don (Apr 23, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> To say No would've been a lie.
> I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try to start fights or goad people into it. I have no need for it neither should you.


I asked if you cared to prove the assertion you made, you couldn't, that is neither starting a fight, nor goading, unless asking for honesty is belligerence.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 23, 2008)

Big Don said:


> I asked if you cared to prove the assertion you made, you couldn't, that is neither starting a fight, nor goading, unless asking for honesty is belligerence.


Well asking me to be honest is as close to accusing me of just "making stuff up" to gain attention to myself. A preposterous idea. 
I could spend hours trying to google for an episode or a transcript that may not exist on line. Frankly I don't have the time for that. Nor do I feel the need to have to prove it. Least of all to you. 

You're on my ignore list now. 

Apologies to Mods and OP for my part in this off topic nonsense.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 23, 2008)

Gents, behave please. Danke.


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## Nolerama (Apr 23, 2008)

In my opinion, I hope the nastier the pump prices get, more people decide to relocate closer to their jobs, move into city cores, and take alternative modes of transportation.

People will become more fit because they will walk/bicycle everywhere. They will be more aware of their surroundings and that of their neighbors because they feel a camaraderie with them, going through these "tough times." People will care about their city again.

However those "tough times" will simply be a transitional phase into whatever mode of propulsion we come up with that's cost-effective and consumer friendly.

One thing prevents us from doing so, thereby decreasing the demand for petroleum, and loosening the Oil Cartel's noose on the American consumer.

It's called comfort.

We like our SUVs in the suburbs and driving a few blocks to shop at a mall, where we wait in traffic to simply park our vehicle.

Then we buy what's perceived as cheaper food in the form of McDonald's, Burger King, KFC, etc not knowing it's cheaper because even though it costs more to transport, so many people buy it that they can lower the retail costs, thereby screwing the local farmer bringing quality produce/meat to local markets the masses don't even go to anymore.

Americans like comfort and we don't want to give it up.

I suggest ride a bike. Live near work. Form better communities, and throw a few tax-exempt bucks into your nearest non-profit vegetable co-op.

It sounds like a hippie thing to do. I see it as the future.


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## mrhnau (Apr 23, 2008)

First, very well written. 


Nolerama said:


> In my opinion, I hope the nastier the pump prices get, more people decide to relocate closer to their jobs, move into city cores, and take alternative modes of transportation.


There is something to be said about moving up rather than out, but I don't think that will be happening en masse any time soon.


> People will become more fit because they will walk/bicycle everywhere. They will be more aware of their surroundings and that of their neighbors because they feel a camaraderie with them, going through these "tough times." People will care about their city again.


"tough time" tend to bind communities together. I'll agree with that. However, over time, that binding tends to lose its strength. Local communities bind together after a tornado, a hurricane, or a disaster. Those don't last long. You get something more long term, like 9/11 or Katrina, do you still feel any national unity?



> However those "tough times" will simply be a transitional phase into whatever mode of propulsion we come up with that's cost-effective and consumer friendly.
> 
> One thing prevents us from doing so, thereby decreasing the demand for petroleum, and loosening the Oil Cartel's noose on the American consumer.
> 
> It's called comfort.


Thats very true.



> We like our SUVs in the suburbs and driving a few blocks to shop at a mall, where we wait in traffic to simply park our vehicle.
> 
> Then we buy what's perceived as cheaper food in the form of McDonald's, Burger King, KFC, etc not knowing it's cheaper because even though it costs more to transport, so many people buy it that they can lower the retail costs, thereby screwing the local farmer bringing quality produce/meat to local markets the masses don't even go to anymore.
> 
> Americans like comfort and we don't want to give it up.


No, I don't think we will. We like the freedom of choice. I like being able to choose between some tiny, non-safe shoebox car and some honking big SUV. If I work my butt off, and can afford that gas, then I should have that right.  The more expensive it becomes, the less people will do so though... For me anyways, it comes down to an issue of freedom, and not having government regulate the decisions you make.



> I suggest ride a bike. Live near work. Form better communities, and throw a few tax-exempt bucks into your nearest non-profit vegetable co-op.
> 
> It sounds like a hippie thing to do. I see it as the future.


Hey man, if thats what you choose to do, more power to you! Out of curiosity, do you do that? I hear tons of politicians saying things like this, but hypocrisy tends to win the day.

I think there are alot of benefits to what you suggest. Healthier people, less cost of living, better environment. I won't debate that. If you make such a decision, please be so kind as to not condemn me for not making the same decision, and please be so kind as to not try and legislate such a decision. If I want that kind of lifestyle, I want it by CHOICE not by FORCE.


Now, will it be the future? That I can't gauge. I doubt we will ever be 100% city centric and bicycle riding, but you never know. Given time and population growth, it may become more important in future centuries to consider this more seriously...


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## terryl965 (Apr 23, 2008)

Well I beleive this just say it all

*To our valued customers:

The rising costs of fuel and material have forced our manufacturers to make price increases at the beginning of May. Effective Monday May 5 some of our prices will be adjusted to reflect these industry-wide increases.

Attached, please find a list of the wholesale price changes effective Monday, May 5 2008. Also, please visit our wholesale web site, **http://wholesale.awma.com/**, where you can always see the most up-to-date wholesale prices. 

As always, Asian World of Martial Arts will continue to provide you with the exceptional personal service you've come to expect from a family business. Thank you once again for your understanding and your continued business.
*

Even Martial art supplys are going though the roof.


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## Nolerama (Apr 23, 2008)

mrhnau said:


> First, very well written.
> 
> There is something to be said about moving up rather than out, but I don't think that will be happening en masse any time soon.
> 
> ...



I actually work with a few groups that advocate city-centric thinking and alternative modes of transportation from a consumer point of view (weird, huh?). 

I try my best to live and work as best as I can to adapt to what I perceive as the future. So yeah, I'm a little biased, and by no means would I condemn those who do not think along my strand of thought.

Americans have choice. That's one of the most beautiful things about the US. However, I wonder if that choice will ever be hampered not by government regulation, but by sheer overindulgence. I have full confidence in humanity's ability to adapt to, say, complete lack of petroleum. I would just hate to see that the transition from fossil fuel to another source as a painful thing for many Americans.

Cheers.


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## kempo-vjj (Apr 23, 2008)

I heard a little of the news article about the gas companies saying that there huge profits were really in line with the type of business they are in. Ok, maybe I can except that....at some point. Here in my city we have raised the sales tax by 1 cent to raise millions of dollars to pay for a new basketball court for the coming sonics basketball team and schools projects. So over a couple of years we raised millions for just Oklahoma city sales tax. So now you take raising gas by 50 cents over 1 year for everybody!! Thats a lot of money even since the gas companies talk with congress. Is there anyway the goverment could be skimming the top for goverment programs. CIA gots to get it's money some how. I myself feel the war has had a direct / indirect cause. How can gas be stable for years and then become so unstable? I have just bought a used 1980's motorcycle. $10 to fill up, ride all week.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 23, 2008)

The car manufacturers can build an efficient, safe, reliable vehicle. They choose not to.  In the 80's when I started looking for a car there was a carburator (not fuel injected) car out there that got 60 MPG. We're not happy to top 30mpg, but 30 years ago we could do 2x that.  This wasn't a little paper thin rice burner rust in a weekend car. It was pretty beefy. Don't remember the name though...started with an S.

SUV Hybrids are out, doing 35-40 MPG. No need to drive the 12mpg chuggers.   

Here, go get 285 MPG.  Prototype? Sure, but if it was at an affordable price, I'd buy one. So what if it's a 2 seater.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 23, 2008)

Here.  Go buy a bug and get 76 mpg
http://www.max-mpg.com/
http://gas2.org/2007/12/12/how-to-get-76-mpg/


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## Nolerama (Apr 26, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Here.  Go buy a bug and get 76 mpg
> http://www.max-mpg.com/
> http://gas2.org/2007/12/12/how-to-get-76-mpg/




Or you can run your car on french-fry juice.
http://www.greasecar.com/


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## Twin Fist (Apr 26, 2008)

Wish i could afford to buy a new car that could do this......

or we could just SET the price at something affordable, and oil companies could learn to live with lower profits.


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## Lisa (Apr 26, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Wish i could afford to buy a new car that could do this......
> 
> or we could just SET the price at something affordable, and oil companies could learn to live with lower profits.



I have a family member who works for one of the oil companies in Alberta.  The rate of pay she gets, the bonuses and the use of the company jet to take her to and from seminars is umm...well amazing to say the least.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 26, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Wish i could afford to buy a new car that could do this......
> 
> or we could just SET the price at something affordable, and oil companies could learn to live with lower profits.


That would require government regulation of the oil industry, which I don't think they would go for.  Personally, though it's against much of my views of how things should be....I'd make an exception here.  Make them public utility companies.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 26, 2008)

Bob,
right there with ya. I DESPISE the idea of the government  getting involved in business generally, but in this case, I am all for it. 

i can go without bananas if bananas get too expensive.

As a nation,t he USA simply ceases to function is gas gets too high

the price of EVERYTHING else goes up as the price of gas  goes up. Soon people cant go to work to earn money to buy food, when that happens, the nation as an entity stops working


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Apr 26, 2008)

In this thread, I am seeing an interesting psychological phenomenon.  People seem to be willing to put aside their philosophical beliefs on government for an economic incentive.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 26, 2008)

becasue the constitution isnt a suicide pact. The survival of the nation is more important than anything else.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 26, 2008)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> In this thread, I am seeing an interesting psychological phenomenon.  People seem to be willing to put aside their philosophical beliefs on government for an economic incentive.


In my case, it's more of a 'lesser of 2 evils'.

On one side, it's a belief that government involvement should be minimal verses a death spiral as the nation heads into a recession as basic necessities of life become impossible for the average person to obtain.  

Food prices are skyrocketing and shortages are beginning to develop as certain staples are diverted to fuel production, and transportation costs double and triple the prices.  Truck drivers are paying -thousands- of dollars in gas and diesel, home heating was at record highs, and people are getting to the point of having to decide if they will eat or travel to work.  We're not there yet, but I can see it coming.

I'll make an exception to my strict view of the Constitution if it will help bring fuel and food costs down.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Apr 27, 2008)

Fair enough, but why not then support a constitutional amendment to change the rules, rather then change your strict constructionist view.  The amendment process is constructionalist, independent of what the amendment itself says.

Yes, such a tactic would be time consuming.  But further releasing the government to control whatever it would like without such a process would contribute to a further erosion.

And I would disagree, as would most I think, that the survival of the country is *more important than anything else*.  

To use a phrase from economics, perhaps this is simply (to a greater or lesser extent) a correction in the market.  Perhaps there is something greater that we should be working on rather then trying to consume as much as we can, as quickly as we can.

Of course, when you figure out what that is, let me know too.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 27, 2008)

I think we should go to war for oil.

Oh... wait...


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## Makalakumu (Apr 27, 2008)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> In this thread, I am seeing an interesting psychological phenomenon. People seem to be willing to put aside their philosophical beliefs on government for an economic incentive.


 
The reason we are in this boat in the first place is because our leaders in the early part of last century, put aside all semblence of following the constitution and bowed down to their corporate bosses.  We used to have a diversified field of transportation and of living, but the oil and auto companies basically put an end to that in favor of cars, roads, suburbs and industrial agriculture.  The government destroyed independent livlihoods in order to create a nation of employees.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 27, 2008)

"The reason we are in this boat in the first place is because our leaders in the early part of last century, put aside all semblence of following the constitution and bowed down to their corporate bosses. We used to have a diversified field of transportation and of living, but the oil and auto companies basically put an end to that in favor of cars, roads, suburbs and industrial agriculture. The government destroyed independent livlihoods in order to create a nation of employees."

as opposed to what? Did the president OREDER people to live int he burbs? Did the auto industry make cities not build rail systems? 

People WANTED to do so. Why? living in the city sucks. For that matter, how does living in the burbs conflict with the constitution?

I am seriously confused here.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> "The reason we are in this boat in the first place is because our leaders in the early part of last century, put aside all semblence of following the constitution and bowed down to their corporate bosses. We used to have a diversified field of transportation and of living, but the oil and auto companies basically put an end to that in favor of cars, roads, suburbs and industrial agriculture. The government destroyed independent livlihoods in order to create a nation of employees."
> 
> as opposed to what? Did the president OREDER people to live int he burbs? Did the auto industry make cities not build rail systems?
> 
> ...


 
No one ordered it, but it was encouraged.  After WWII, the federal housing commission gave millions of grants to returning veterans.  Roads and planned communities were constructed with federal dollars outside of city centers in order to encourage the use of oil and the automobile.  All economic plans form rail or other forms of mass transit were scrapped after major lobbying campaigns from corporate interests opposed to them.  

None of this has any constitutional mandate.  The federal government isn't supposed to form these corporate partnerships or use our tax monies to discourage one form of choice in favor of another.  All of this was a form of socialism and goes against the libertarian traditions in which our country was founded.

I guess, at any rate, all of this may have happened anyway without any government prompting.  Oil was cheaper then water in texas and people were looking for ways to put it to use.  It's too bad that some of the early thinkers who advocated conservation were eschewed in favor of those who wanted to sell it as fast as they could pump it out of the ground.

Regardless of how it happened, the suburban lifestyle is a high energy living arrangement that is probably inappropriate for the current energy market we now face.  No matter what, this is going to be a very painful time for Americans because its going to have to change.  We've thrown all of our eggs in one basket in regards to a living arrangement that is unsustainable.  I say keep the government out of it and let the price of gas do what it may.  People need to have the freedom to decide how they want to live their lives in response to this.  I don't want some corporate elite telling me how I should live my life.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 27, 2008)

The problem with your "let it sort itself out" scenario is that it will lead to national disaster.

AS gas prices go up, so does the price of everything else. We are already seeing it.

Just as an example, say I spend all my available cash on gas, so i stop eating lunch. That puts the waiter at the restaurant I would have gone to out of a job. He cant go look for a job, because he doesnt have any cash to buy gas.

Since times are tough, I stop putting money into my savings account, That means with less money comming in, the bank has to fire a teller. Plus, they cant give out any more small business loans, and that puts more people out of work

No new home loans, that puts the contractors out of work.

Since every single thing in this country is transported by truck from somewhere to somewhere else, the price of gas increases the price of everything.

The prices of gas goes up too high, the cost of shirts at walmart goes up, no one buys them, wallmart goes under, MILLIONS are out of work.

It cant be allowed to happen. If for no other reason than if the nation goes under, there wont be any tax dollars to divert to funding research into Mr Fusion.


screw HOW we got here, it is irellevant. We are here NOW and we have to fix it.

Taking gas off the commodities market and Capping the price of gas at something affordable hurts no one but the oil industry, and they are making obscene profits at anything over  $1 a gal. 

I would be willing to pull out of the middle east entirely to fund it. Take all that money and pour it into research for the future and drilling and refining for  the NOW.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 27, 2008)

How we got to this point matters a lot.  For the least of all reasons, its instructive that when the government attempts to do good for people, like giving returning veterans houses, building good roads so we can get to work from those houses, using federal money to build infrastructure to drill-refine-deliver oil products to keep the machine going, corporate interests will bend that goodwill for their own benefit.  

The reason why the oil companies are making so much and charging whatever they want is because they helped to create a system that holds our country over a barrel so to speak, literally and figuratively.  What will happen this time if we rely on the government to solve our problems this time?  Who will benefit?  

Right now, big agriculture is benefitting.  Ethanol production is being highly subsidized by the government in response to the energy crisis we face with oil.  Never mind that we basically are putting food into our gas tanks, creating global shortages and driving prices up everywhere.  An elite few are making a lot of money off of this and they only way that it is profitable is for the government to subsidize it.  

And it doesn't fix the problem!

As you so noted, our entire society is completely dependent upon cheap fossil fuel energy.  And I agree, our country is facing a major economic disaster because of this.  The problem isn't the price of energy though.  It's the society that's been constructed for us.  Nature determines the price of energy through its limitations.  We determine how we use this energy regardless of the limitations imposed by natural law.

Actually fixing the problem isn't a bait and switch game of taking one energy source and converting to another.  This will never solve anything because energy is never free.  The real problem is a society that is predicated on wasting energy at every point possible.  For example, why do I need to buy a pair of underwear that was made in China, when I can buy a perfectly good pair that was made by my neighbors in my home town?  The only reason I can even make the choice NOT to do that is because cheap fossil fuel energy makes it possible to use labor at nearly slave wages to undercut my neighbors livlihood!

That example is ubiquitous across all of our society and its important to understand that it never used to be that way.  At a certain point in time, American was self sufficient and we are a great enough country to do it again, we just can't do it in such a way that a ruling corporate elite can easily manage us.  

If we are going to survive as a free people, the Walmarts of this country have to go.  General electric, General Motors, and General Mills are ALL going to have to go.  We are going to have to go back to a system that is NOT centralized, not controlled by a few, but maintained by the will of many.  We need that network of small farms close to our cities producing food.  We need to those ma and pa small businesses back in order to make and sell our goods.  We need to take responsibility for our own energy needs because producing your own energy with the resources that surround you is always the most efficient way of producing power.  We need to completely reshape our ideas about just who we think we need to depend on.  

We need to relearn how to trust ourselves again and beleive in the greatness of our country's citizens.

Cheap fossil fuel energy made possible a centralized society where wealth and power could be consolidated into the hands of a few.  All of the "generals" that I listed above would not exist without it.  The dirty little secret is this, before those companies existed, people still lived fullfilling happy lives.  More fulfilling, IMHO, because it was easier to be a person rather then a consumer.

So this is why I say let the chips fall as they may.  America is filled with a bunch of great people who are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves.  We don't need the "generals" to manage our needs like a rancher manages cattle.  If the government steps in, the only reason it will do so is in order to maintain the corporate managed society that the elite crafted for us.

A different society is possible though.  A society in which people are in charge of their own destinies again.  Cheap fossil fuels is the only thing that makes the mass management of the globe possible.  It's the only thing that keeps the massive piles of wealth and capital in the hands of the few.  

I say let the market work and let this way of life die.  Let the price of fuel rise as high as the sky and let the "generals" whither on the vine for their own arrogance.  We don't need to be afraid because we are all smart enough to craft our own ways.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 27, 2008)

Ok lets go back to the 1950's
No walmarts, no real global corporations, lots of mom and pop businesses. 

Well, thats not too bad. 
But how do we get there? I can only really see two ways. Either:
1. The government steps in and basically re-creates the entire country, by force, and puts about half of all americans out of work
2. we let the nation destroy itself and rebuild from the ashes.

hmmmmm

while the idea sounds pretty good, I think the cost might just be a little too high. While your idea isnt a bad one, there really is no way to do it without destroying the country.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Ok lets go back to the 1950's
> No walmarts, no real global corporations, lots of mom and pop businesses.
> 
> Well, thats not too bad.
> ...


 
No, it won't be easy.  But the price of creating this unsustainable society wasn't easy either.  A LOT of people suffered the loss of their livlihood and freedom in order to do it.  All of us have been impoverished with the general devaluation of our currency the glut of cheap energy fueled.  One way or another, this way of life can't last and I am firmly convinced that if the government steps in to try and fix it, it will only make the problem worse for everyone but the corporate elite.  

For me, the choice is clear.  Do I want to live a wasteful life so I can depend on undemocratic corporate entities to provide for me or do I want to take care of myself and my family?


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 27, 2008)

You guys are both making good points.  We need to know how we got here so we can avoid a repeat, plus understanding that might help us find the solution.

The highways and the car were encouraged, while other systems like train and rail and bike were not.  Nations like Germany, Japan and a few others are decades ahead of the US in the use of rail to move people around.  Even Canada has better public transportation networks than any US city I've been in. 

Problem: Gas Prices are too high.
Why?


> EIA analysis of the petroleum market points to the cost of crude oil as the main contributor to the record high gasoline prices that we are now experiencing.
> 
> The cost of crude oil now accounts for almost 70% of the gasoline pump price. World crude oil prices are at record highs due mainly to high worldwide oil demand relative to supply. Other factors contributing to higher prices include political events and conflicts in some major oil producing regions, as well as other factors such as the declining value of the U.S. dollar (the currency at which crude oil is traded globally).


 http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/gasoline_faqs.asp#gas_prices

So, it's high mostly because it can be.  That Supply-Demand thing. 

How do we fix that?
Unfortunately, the only option I can see working is if the government steps in, takes control of the oil companies and starts regulating the prices. That might however also cause other problems as we do not control the source of the oil.

Another thing that needs to be done now, and done with serious effort is to find an alternate to oil that can be made available to people at an affordable rate that does NOT cause increases in pollution, food prices, etc.  Hybrids that combine gas, electric and solar. Total electric cars. Nuclear power.  Hydrogen fuel cells, corn gas, etc are all short term dead end bandaids.  

Corn goes up because it's now in demand.
As a result, less corn is grown for food, causing shortages.
Higher prices for feed corn = higher prices for chicken, beef and pork.
Higher fuel costs = higher costs of transporting food = higher prices for food.
This is the cycle that we're facing, and we need to get off, now.

So, nationalize the US oil companies, stop giving them kick backs, stabilize US oil/gas prices so that that food prices will drop.  Stop growing corn for gas as there are other plants that have a better ROI for that, and fund the long term replacements so that they can be developed now, not in 20 years.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 27, 2008)

What He said ^

Though it would be nice to see Bush get on the phone with king Faud and let him know that we are getting tired of getting robbed. Oh sure, he will say "ok fine, the chinese will pay it" 

to which president Bush can reply, "ok, we have bought yours for the last 40 years to be nice, now we are gonna drill our own. Cancel all our orders. Oh, and by the way, since you wanted to be a jerk about it, we are pulling out all our troops from Saudi. And Iraq. And when iran takes over Iraq, then wants to invade you, call the chinese"


That will shut him up. Trust me, the Saudi's remember 1991 VERY well.


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## FearlessFreep (Apr 28, 2008)

Just something to toss into the conversation

This is an article from 2004

Just how high will oil prices go?

To sum up (since I only skimmed TFA anyway), the position is that most of the increase n prices is due to increased demand (mostly from India and China).



> I maintain the view that we may see sometime in future far higher prices than anybody envisions. The current oil bull market is purely a function of increased demand coming principally from Asia at a time global oil production has practically no spare capacity. China's car population has more than doubled since 2002.



It ends with this chilling prediction



> And, in the case that oil prices were to rise in real terms to their 1980s highs - well over US$ 100 - then the foundation for World War Three would be laid and most certainly begin to weigh heavily on equity prices for which I cannot share the prevailing widespread optimism anyway. Financial stocks have begun to weaken and this is an indication that something is not quite right!


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## terryl965 (Apr 28, 2008)

Well OPEC has said they believeCrude will go past $200.00 a barrel and for every 1% the US dollar fails the crude will go up four dollars so at this rate gas prices will be around $4.50 a gallon by mid June. Well that just grat and saya alot about us as a whole.


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## Nolerama (Apr 30, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> You guys are both making good points.  We need to know how we got here so we can avoid a repeat, plus understanding that might help us find the solution.
> 
> The highways and the car were encouraged, while other systems like train and rail and bike were not.  Nations like Germany, Japan and a few others are decades ahead of the US in the use of rail to move people around.  Even Canada has better public transportation networks than any US city I've been in.



I agree. Great points, and Bob's piqued my interest. I wonder why in, "the greatest country in the world" we don't have a high-speed nationwide rail system. In Japan, they use a magnetic levitation system to increase fuel economy and speed. That's a SALE to me as an American; and the American in me is a little jealous at the fact that we can't seem to have something like that.

As a consumer, I want choice outside of getting robbed by big companies who overcharge me because they bought their oil in futures and want to make a quick profit. I've used this example before, but I believe the mentality behind our higher pump costs/ record profits for oil companies lies in the same arena as the Enron scandal.

I live in St. Louis, MO, surprisingly one of the first places in the US to have a "subway" and has until only recently made an expansion on its light rail system. Unfortunately, this is still a driving town, where public transit is shunned because it's seen as a divider between the classes in this city (outside of going to ballgames where no one wants to pay for parking).

Give me a fuel cell-powered friction-reduced train that can allow me to commute from LA to NYC in four hours, for a few hundred bucks.

However I don't see that happening any time soon. No politician want to earmark something like that in this consumer-corporate government of ours. And there certainly wouldn't be any pork for this pork barrel in the form of instant monetary gratification.



Bob Hubbard said:


> Another thing that needs to be done now, and done with serious effort is to find an alternate to oil that can be made available to people at an affordable rate that does NOT cause increases in pollution, food prices, etc.  Hybrids that combine gas, electric and solar. Total electric cars. Nuclear power.  Hydrogen fuel cells, corn gas, etc are all short term dead end bandaids.



Even the plastic in bandaids are petroleum-based...



Bob Hubbard said:


> Corn goes up because it's now in demand.
> As a result, less corn is grown for food, causing shortages.
> Higher prices for feed corn = higher prices for chicken, beef and pork.
> Higher fuel costs = higher costs of transporting food = higher prices for food.
> This is the cycle that we're facing, and we need to get off, now.



Even with the demand in corn, American farmers are still asked to not grow it to control costs, while Mexican farmers are approaching a famine, since NAFTA has put a premium on American corn, and makes Mexico buy their corn from the US, leading to poorer Mexicans and more illegal immigration to the US from Mexico.

Why not spread the wealth?

American/Global conglomerates won't, because they don't like seeing a decrease in their profit margins.



Bob Hubbard said:


> So, nationalize the US oil companies, stop giving them kick backs, stabilize US oil/gas prices so that that food prices will drop.  Stop growing corn for gas as there are other plants that have a better ROI for that, and fund the long term replacements so that they can be developed now, not in 20 years.



That's the irony in this country, and no politician is going to bite the hand that feed him (or her). It's not like my $5 contribution to a Presidential candidate's campaign made a difference. Big companies own these people and our dependency on consumer goods means Big Companies OWN us lowly citizens.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 7, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I will agree a couple of months and we will be begging for the *3.59 a gallon*.


Well it's back... at least in my part of the country anyway... gas prices have been dropping thanks to crude dropping but the rate is a lot slower than it needs to be. 
Still an improvement... not much but an improvement. Perhaps all the talk of the U.S. planning off shore drilling helped knock the prices down (a wee bit). :idunno: who knows.


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## Kacey (Aug 7, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Well it's back... at least in my part of the country anyway... gas prices have been dropping thanks to crude dropping but the rate is a lot slower than it needs to be.
> Still an improvement... not much but an improvement. Perhaps all the talk of the U.S. planning off shore drilling helped knock the prices down (a wee bit). :idunno: who knows.



I wish it were back to $3.59 here... the best I've seen is $3.78.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 7, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I wish it were back to $3.59 here... the best I've seen is $3.78.



We have had $3.61.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2008)

We have $4.19.


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## Big Don (Aug 8, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> We have $4.19.


so do we


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## Makalakumu (Aug 8, 2008)

$4.43 on Oahu, but what else does one expect...


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