# Scam or no?



## deadhand31 (Jan 8, 2002)

There's something about my school that I'm not sure is a scam or not. When we test for 1st degree, we get certified by the Kukkiwon, or the Korean council on Tae Kwon Do. Now, to actually get our Kukkiwon ID, we have to stay within the school for a year after the test is passed. Is this a scam, or is this probationary period sanctioned?


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 15, 2002)

This is actually standard for the TKD world.  I have seen people waiting 4,5 and even 6 yrs to get their certification.  This is done to keep your money rolling in.  If you quit you will not get your certificate.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 15, 2002)

As an idea, call a few other TKD schools and ask them how their program works.  Do it anonymously though.


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## arnisador (Jan 15, 2002)

The 6 month to 1 year probationary period is not uncommon. I don't know if it's a money-making method or not.


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## fist of fury (Jan 18, 2002)

Seems suspcious to me I would take Kaith's advice and check around anonymously.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 20, 2002)

I _think_ the Kukkiwon is the main headquarters for either the WTF or ITF.  If this is the case, and they are actually sending your information there, then it may not be bogus.  I'm guessing it would be like registering a Shotokan black belt with the JKA.

Cthulhu


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## white dragon (Feb 11, 2002)

Kukkiwon is used for WTF. There's no need as far as I'm aware that you should have to stay at your school for an extra year after passing your grading. You may however have to wait a few weeks to recieve your certificate as it's got to be sent from Korea and recorded etc.  I can only assume this is bogus as durring my time at my club, we've had two black belt gradings and they got their Kukkiwon without having to wait. We sent off for them and then they came within the month.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by white dragon _
> *Kukkiwon is used for WTF. There's no need as far as I'm aware that you should have to stay at your school for an extra year after passing your grading. You may however have to wait a few weeks to recieve your certificate as it's got to be sent from Korea and recorded etc.  I can only assume this is bogus as durring my time at my club, we've had two black belt gradings and they got their Kukkiwon without having to wait. We sent off for them and then they came within the month. *



Whoops!  I forgot that the original post stated that he would have to stay at the school for a year.  That part definitely sounds like a load of dung.  Sounds like someone who has had a lot of his newly minted black belts leave soon after promotion.

Cthulhu


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## white dragon (Feb 12, 2002)

It's really sad reading all the little scams that happen to people, even little things like that.  I'm happy to say that as far as I know I'm not getting scammed for anything.... but you never know, sadly...


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## kickyou (Mar 22, 2002)

It is a scam.The instructor is just worried about you leaving and becoming his competition.


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## Damian Mavis (Apr 8, 2002)

My old instructor would make you wait one to 2 years for certification after getting your black belt and you know why?  If you quit in that time he just pocketed a few extra hundred dollars that were supposed to go to the federation.  Sleazebag.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## white dragon (Apr 8, 2002)

A few extra hundred dollars?!? What was that money meant to be for!?


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## TangSooGuy (Apr 8, 2002)

Well i'm going to play devil's advocate a little.

This may be a scam, but why assume it is just because you have to wait?

The probationary period is instituted in a lot of places I've been to, talked about, or heard of.  It can be a valuable tool for the instructor to determine whether you're going to act like a black belt once you test for it, or, in my opinion, act like an ungrateful brat and walk out the door.  part of beinga black belt involves loyalty.  part of being a black belt is contributing something back to your instructor and the school that got you there.  So ask yourself, if i can't wait 6 months to a year, do I really deserve it?

Ou mentality nowdays seems to be the whole "fast food" situation:  I paid my dues, now give it to me, and give it to me now.  I think that's sad, personally.

I don't know if I really argued my point well, but i have to ask what's so bad about waiting?  why do you want to  run out the door as soon as you get your black belt anyway?  That mentality just confirms the reason for the probationary period.  If you're going to walk away from your trainingas soon as i hand you the belt, why did i even bother letting you test?

Think about waht your instructor and your school has invested in you.

now, with all that said, I don't know all the details.  If they are charging you ridiculous fees for extras along the way, then look out for a scam.  But if they say we want to see how you conduct yourself before you get promoted, well that doesn't necessarily spell out scam to me.

By the ay, the way it's always been usedin my system is that you get the belt after you test, but you don't get official certification until you've passed through 6 months of probation.  It's a matter of giving someone the belt and the authority and seeing how they use it. Fogive me if this frame of reference has led me to misunderstand what others are saying.


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## white dragon (Apr 8, 2002)

Why give a belt to someone you're unsure is worthy of wearing it? Why not first wait 6 months or so then decide if they will conduct themselves in a manner respectful to the belt, THEN grade them. Rather than making someone pay for a grading, giving them a belt THEN making up your mind if they deserve to wear it.

The probation idea is good, but BEFORE you grade, not after so you have to pay more fees to the club. Some people CAN'T stay at their current club for another year after grading, people move, have children, doesn't mean they haven't earned their belt. My main club is a university club, people stay with us for 3 to 4 years normally. Some make it to black belt, but because they won't be at the university any longer we can't expect them to stay around for another year after getting a black belt, if they've earned one.

I kind of understand about not giving the certificate till a while after and making sure they're ready, but if you had yout doubts why grade them?


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## Damian Mavis (Apr 8, 2002)

I can understand 6 month waiting period but not 1 to 2 years which is what my instructor was doing.

After I left he made some changes.... people were always complaining they wanted  their certificate when they got their black belt so he would make his own school certificate and if they wanted an official federation certificate they had to pay another $350...so he basically doubled the price for something that was only supposed to cost a one time fee of $350

THEN.... people complained about that so he just started making his own "official" federation certificates that cost a couple dollars to make and gave those out with the black belts without ever having registered them through the federation or giving any money to the federation. YIKES

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## white dragon (Apr 8, 2002)

What the F*#k?!? You pay how much for a grading?!? I don't care even if it is for a blackbelt. He's grading you right, how can he justify charging that much to grade you?!? What is he doing that's worth paying $350 for? Do you get a free wide-screen tv with your belt or something??? And then asking for $350 more for your certificate is just plain WRONG. The cost of an official certificate is next to nothing, you may have to pay a little for postage but that won't be much as it'll just be a light poster tube.

Our club gives out certificates for all gradings, so that people have something they can keep as a momento. We also have grading/insurance books which are signed the day you grade, stating you've graded. This is proof of your grading and will be accepted in any club. If you want an official certificate for Kup gradings we do give them out but they'll take a couple of weeks to come in and we'll ask about £1.50 for it (just to cover the cost of postage). For a BB grading we always give out the official certificate, free. But again these will take a couple of weeks to come through. 

I can't see how that guy can even justify asking for the prices he expects you to pay. It's people like him that are giving TKD a bad name.


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## Damian Mavis (Apr 8, 2002)

The cost of an official certificate is about $200..hardly next to nothing haha.

Well... what federation are you with?  $350 Canadian is standard for black belt in Canada.... most of that money goes to the headquarters in Vienna (or used to until recently), it's what the federation charges for the "official" certificate...that's what they charge everybody... I think it's like $200 Canadian goes to federation and the rest goes to the tester who sits there testing you for 2 days at 6 hours each day. So..... either your instructor isn't giving out official certificates OR things are completely different for the UK ..OR your in another federation? 

As a side note.. (and I'm sure that all WTF isn't like this but) the only WTF school in my city is controlled by a 9th degree.... which means he sets his own prices, he charges $1000 for a black belt.  AND PEOPLE PAY IT! yikes

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## white dragon (Apr 8, 2002)

I'm with the WTF, actually to be fair I thinking abot it I think you do actually have to pay more for a BB certificate, something like £50 or so, but our club covers that in the cost of the grading. The grading by the way is £9, same as any other belt, although you will be there for a LOT longer  As far as I know this is pretty standard. A friend recently had to go to take his 4th Dan and paid something like £200 for this, including certificate. This was because 2 people needed to be flown in from Korea and the coast of them coming over to grade was devided out between the people grading that day. So if there had been more grading it would have cost less. Just luck of the draw really. I think if it gets any more than £250 they push it off for another 3 months or so, so more people can take the grading. 

$1,000 for a black belt? Yikes indeed! Man that better be worth the money, for that much I'd expect to be like Jet Li!


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## Damian Mavis (Apr 8, 2002)

Sounds like you guys get a pretty good deal going on in WTF in your part of the UK..or maybe just at your school.  The WTF school here run by a Grandmaster no less, is totally scamming by charging such outrageous prices....but he can do it because he controls the whole city for WTF.  Any other WTF school is shut down or put out of business by him ( he has the power and influence to do this because hes 9th degree) So if you want WTF Tae Kwon Do, you pay his prices...thankgod im ITF.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## white dragon (Apr 9, 2002)

Yet more corruption! It sounds stupid that in modern times people can still have other clubs shut down because they have the influence. It sounds just like being a gangster!

I know personally I do have a sweet deal due to the type of club I go to. But my other club (when not at uni) charges a bit more for lessons (only about £3 a lesson) and all gradings up to 3rd Dan are free, including certificates.


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## Seig (May 18, 2002)

I'm not going to get into fees, but I will say this:  I got my first TKD BB in 1986, I got the certificate for it in 1995.  The instructor was a little difficult to get paper from.  His answer was, I know your rank, you know your rank and my people know your rank, why do you care?


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## Damian Mavis (May 18, 2002)

My old instructor would hold off as long as possible to get your certificate because if you quit then he got to keep the $200 it cost him to get the certificate (which you already paid for of course) and would only buy your certificate if you stuck around and bugged him long enough.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Kirk (May 18, 2002)

What about going to another school of the same style, and being
required to start over as white belt?  Scam or no?


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## Damian Mavis (May 18, 2002)

Right away?  I can understand starting over after a 6 year break from training but if you get a black belt in ITF TKD and go to another school right away you are automatically recognised as black belt.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## white dragon (May 19, 2002)

I think it depends on the situation, but I don't think any instructor has the right to take your belt off you (unless it's for a disipline reason). If he's unhappy with your techniques and doesn't think you're up to the standard he'd normally set for his students then I think just holding back on your gradings till he feels you've caught up seems better than stripping you of your belt. And simply taking a belt away because you're from a different organisation is sad as that's politics, not ability.


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## Kirk (May 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by white dragon _
> 
> *I think it depends on the situation, but I don't think any instructor has the right to take your belt off you (unless it's for a disipline reason). If he's unhappy with your techniques and doesn't think you're up to the standard he'd normally set for his students then I think just holding back on your gradings till he feels you've caught up seems better than stripping you of your belt. And simply taking a belt away because you're from a different organisation is sad as that's politics, not ability. *



I totally agree, yet it happened where I live.  A guy has been an
active b.b. for almost a decade now (from Maryland) ... he came
down here, and ended up leaving one school because the master
felt he should be a white belt.


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## fist of fury (May 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Well if it's the school I think it is then it's because it's a mcdojo and the instructor wants him to pay the money.


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## Damian Mavis (May 19, 2002)

Ya in a case like that it's definately all about the benjamins.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## deadhand31 (May 20, 2002)

With the WTF, once you get your Kukkiwon ID card (it's a photo id, legally recognized), any other WTF school will accept you at that rank. If you're under 16, however, it's different. you are able to get up to 2nd degree, but it will only be recognized as a junior level. when you turn 16, then you need to get recertified for the rank.


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## Bod (May 28, 2002)

Although this may seem like I'm going off topic I'm going to talk about Judo. I've been to schools of other styles where, yep, everybody wants a higher belt, so they have to pay one way or another.

Because in training people tend to go lighter on the lower grades and that the element of surprise is a big factor in throwing someone, there are constant complaints that people are not wearing their correct belts - i.e. too low. Many competitors hold off gradings until virtually forced to take them because they have to wear their true belt.

Not surprising then that gradings in Judo are virtually free (dirt cheap anyway). It's a supply and demand thing. Now maybe if you TKD guys would all conspire to hold off gradings for a year - say, like, form a union - then the price might fall dramatically!


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## white dragon (May 28, 2002)

well I'm taking a year out after summer and I might not grade for the year, but continue training at a different club. The main reason for this is because I think it'll be hard to find another class that teaches such a wide range of techniques and with such a high practicality value. the upside crossed my mind that I'd go back and fight in the same belt class as this year at the nationals... get an easy gold, hazzah. 

But then it dawned on me again that this would really suck for people I was fighting. I know how annoyed everyone get this year when a white belt one his gold... he'd been training for over 4 years, just never graded so he was fighting begineers. Doesn't say much about honour if you ask me.


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## Nightingale (May 30, 2002)

When I took TKD, the instructor didn't care what belt we were in what style (even if it was TKD elsewhere), he made us all start at white belts...I had a blue in TKD at that time, so he kinda pissed me off.

My kenpo instructor honors all belts from all styles. If you're a black belt in TKD and want to learn kenpo, you still wear your black belt if you want to, and are given all honors and respect normally accorded to black belts. However, he sticks your tail in the white belt class and only advance to the next class when he thinks you're ready.  Of course, if you actually wanted to start as white belt, he'd let ya, and his testing fees are only like $25 per rank (black is more, dunno how much...I'm only brown). so money isn't really that much of an issue if you want to start over and earn kenpo ranks too.  

Personally, I like starting over when I switch styles, because it lets me better measure my progress...don't think I'll be switching again, tho. Kenpo and I get along well.

If I walk into a school and the instructor tells me he charges a hundred bucks for a belt test, I walk right back out the door.


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## yilijunior (Dec 19, 2002)

My god??!!
I'm sure glad I'm with the organization I'm with...
Our dues are $30 a month, $10-15 (can't remember since last grading) for testing which my Sifu charges just to cover cost of new belt/sash, certificate, and card that says our new rank in case we go to another chapter of our group.
I couldn't imagine hundreds of dollars to test, or money paid for each part of the exam (i.e. empty hand, weapons, etc).
To each his own I guess?!


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## Nightingale (Dec 19, 2002)

there's nothing wrong with charging a small fee for a belt test, but hundreds of dollars is rediculous.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 19, 2002)

I paid $20 per belt test up to black, and I didn't have a problem with that all.  Black belt test was no charge. 

Cthulhu


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## Seig (Dec 20, 2002)

Different people have different takes on testing fees.  My people pay fees, a large percentage of what I charge is earmarked for the organization, what is left over is for me.  My school does not pay me, it supports itself, barely.  The money I collect for belts more often than not, winds up being poured right back into the school.  It's all a matter of perspective.


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## D_Brady (Dec 20, 2002)

Seig , I agree with you, I have a small club so I know what your talking about. I was curious on your thoughts on holding on to certificates as part of a probation. I personally don't agree with it. I never herd of a college telling someone they have to wait for a year after they graduate to receive there diploma.

 Or how about telling the MA teachers to hold the check for a year I bet that the would go over big. Again I'm just curious.


    Thank you  
                           Dan Brady.


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## Seig (Dec 20, 2002)

Dan,
    I hold certificates until the fee is paid, no longer.  I do not believe in probation.  For under belts, I promote them when I feel they are ready, period.  For upper ranks, when I feel they are ready, I recoomend them to Mr. C.  He and I then discuss when we should do a panel.  My students either get promoted, or they do not, no probation.


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## D_Brady (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks for the reply, sounds like your doing a great job up there,

         Dan.


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## Disco (Mar 22, 2003)

If your Instructor / Master feels your ready to test for Black Belt, then you have been deemed worthy. They have watched you train from white belt on up. Once you test, there should be no waiting period. You've trained and proved yourself and they allowed you to test. Keeping you hanging is just a ploy to keep you paying for training. Once you receive your Black Belt, a good school will give you a brake in price on your continued training because you are now expected to become an assistant instructor or instructor in training. 

If you think you are in a school that has a questionable instructor, you can check their background and certifications. For WTF instructors contact the USTU. They have a web site and they can also verify if your instructor has submitted your Dan ranking to the Kukkiwon or if your ranking has been listed. For the ITF, I'm sure they can do the same.


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## Chuck (Mar 28, 2003)

In our school there is no probationary Black Belt. My certification comes from the Kukkiwon, with no strings attached. I tested, passed and received my certification about six weeks later. I would have received it whether I continued or not.

Additionally, if you come into our school with a belt level from any other school it will be recognized by the instructors.

I was really fortunate to find the TKD school. I have felt from the beginning that Georgie Martinez is completely honorable. If you are ever in the Denver area, Martinez Brothers TKD should be checked out.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 4, 2003)

The probationary period isn't new and in several Japanese based arts your 1st. Shodan certificate (1st. degree bb) is actually a Shodan-Ho certification which represents a 1 year probationary period and after the first year, it becomes a permanant Shodan certification.


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## arnisador (Dec 29, 2003)

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## Kodanjaclay (Dec 29, 2003)

Many schools have a probationary period. Once you get your dan cert for example, you can always use that number to trace your dans with KKW. So even if your school fails to give it to you, you have other recourse, including Tort law for failing to provide something you paid for.

In some countries you must go through the NGB to Kukkiwon. The US does not fall in this category because the NGB does not have the required number of members based on percentage of KKW yudanja... then again, USTU may not be their NGB for much longer either.


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