# Five Dragons Facing Four Winds



## LanJie (Jul 5, 2008)

Hello,
I was wondering if anyone had a video of the form Five Dragons Facing Four Winds. 

I could not find any on Youtube. 

I used to study Shaolin Kenpo. I study kung fu now and I have a video of every form I had except this one and I would like to see what it is like again.

I would really appreciate any help.

Regards,
Steve


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 5, 2008)

LanJie said:


> Hello,
> I was wondering if anyone had a video of the form Five Dragons Facing Four Winds.
> 
> I could not find any on Youtube.
> ...


 
I've seen it on video somewhere, just have to remember where. I, myself, haven't done this form in a long, long time, so I would be hesitant on digitizing it ... hope you can understand that.


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## LanJie (Jul 5, 2008)

I found a link to a version of Five Dragons Facing Four Winds. 

The version I was taught had many alterations and looked a lot different but it is close enough to give me a idea of what it was like.

Here is the link.

Five Dragons Facing Four Winds
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb146/capemartialarts/MattKempoPage/?action=view&current=FiveDragons.flv

This page also has similar material to what I had in my old school.

One Pinan (Hand Form One in my School)
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/...ttKempoPage/?action=view&current=onepinan.flv

One Kata (Hand Form One in my School)
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/...attKempoPage/?action=view&current=onekata.flv

Two Kata (Hand Form Two in my School)
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/...attKempoPage/?action=view&current=twokata.flv

Three Kata (Hand Form Three in my School)
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/...tKempoPage/?action=view&current=threekata.flv

Statue of the Crane (Shaolin Crane in my School)
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/...MattKempoPage/?action=view&current=Statue.flv

Swift Tigers (Swift Tiger in my School)
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/...empoPage/?action=view&current=SwiftTigers.flv


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## Matt (Jul 5, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> I've seen it on video somewhere, just have to remember where. I, myself, haven't done this form in a long, long time, so I would be hesitant on digitizing it ... hope you can understand that.



Perhaps you saw it at my site?

It is the version as done by Ken Warner. 

The vast majority of Shaolin Kempo info is available there. 

Matt


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 5, 2008)

Matt said:


> Perhaps you saw it at my site?
> 
> It is the version as done by Ken Warner.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah Matt ... LOL ... once I saw the link posted, it hit me. I'm getting old, what can I say.


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## Matt (Jul 5, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> Yeah Matt ... LOL ... once I saw the link posted, it hit me. I'm getting old, what can I say.



That's all right - I had to check my site because I couldn't remember if it was there off the top of my head. And it's my site...


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## marlon (Jul 10, 2008)

Shihan Ingariola has it on his 4th degree black belt dvd.  his web site is www.shaolinkempo.com


respectfully,
marlon


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## RevIV (Jul 10, 2008)

I can say that i see my version in there a little bit, but all in all it is different then the way i do it.


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## marlon (Jul 10, 2008)

RevIV said:


> I can say that i see my version in there a little bit, but all in all it is different then the way i do it.


 

from which one, Jesse? K.Warner or Shihan I's?
marlon


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## LanJie (Jul 10, 2008)

I always loved the name of the Form.  Does anyone know the orgin of the name Five Dragons Facing Four Winds?


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## RevIV (Jul 12, 2008)

marlon said:


> from which one, Jesse? K.Warner or Shihan I's?
> marlon


 
Ken W. is much different then mine, angles and all.  Prof. I's version is more similiar to mine.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 12, 2008)

Off Topic:

Matt 
love your site
nicely set up


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## MeatWad2 (Jul 14, 2008)

Seems to be a Fred Villari special...meaning he made it up.


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## Danjo (Jul 15, 2008)

If there are only four winds, why are there five dragons? Are two facing the same wind? Sorry to get deep here.


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## RevIV (Jul 15, 2008)

Danjo said:


> If there are only four winds, why are there five dragons? Are two facing the same wind? Sorry to get deep here.


 
5 dragons in reference to the 5 animals of SKK and how the dragon can turn into any of them at any time.  4 winds, self explanatory.


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## Danjo (Jul 15, 2008)

RevIV said:


> 5 dragons in reference to the 5 animals of SKK and how the dragon can turn into any of them at any time. 4 winds, self explanatory.


 
So are all five animals dragons then?


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## DavidCC (Jul 15, 2008)

Actually Dan I know you are just fooling around but you might know that in Chinese tradition the dragon is actually composed of body parts from the 9 other sacred animals.  So the literal answer is NO you have it backwards, the 5 animals are not dragons, but the dragon is all 5.


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## Danjo (Jul 15, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Actually Dan I know you are just fooling around but you might know that in Chinese tradition the dragon is actually composed of body parts from the 9 other sacred animals. So the literal answer is NO you have it backwards, the 5 animals are not dragons, but the dragon is all 5.


 
I keep picturing Will Farrell's character in Starsky and Hutch. "_Alright guys, I'm not gonna lie to you. This is gonna get kinda weird... TWO DRAGONS."_ 

But seriously, If the Dragon is made up of 9 animals, then why only five dragons? I mean the form says "FIVE DRAGONS" not "FIVE ANIMALS THAT THE DRAGON TURNS INTO" and why all five, if there are only four winds to be faced? See how deep philosophy can get so quickly?


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## DavidCC (Jul 15, 2008)

Danjo said:


> I keep picturing Will Farrell's character in Starsky and Hutch. "_Alright guys, I'm not gonna lie to you. This is gonna get kinda weird... TWO DRAGONS."_
> 
> But seriously, If the Dragon is made up of 9 animals, then why only five dragons? I mean the form says "FIVE DRAGONS" not "FIVE ANIMALS THAT THE DRAGON TURNS INTO" and why all five, if there are only four winds to be faced? See how deep philosophy can get so quickly?


 
Well, if you fall 7 times and rise 8, from that elevated perch you can see that there are really 9 winds (the 8 cardinal directions plus the one I just broke).


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## marlon (Jul 16, 2008)

well i do agree that GM Villari made this up, however, the meaning of the name i think is to be able to change from one fighting style to the next fluidly as needed...five dragons 4 directions or any direction  the form moves from static to fluid, from runnnignaway to offense, from scurrying away on the ground to fighting from the ground to fighting standing up...the form is about changing and adapting so dragon and from any position so four winds.  Of course i could be wrong, this is how i see the form

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Danjo (Jul 16, 2008)

So what kind of dragon are we talking about then? Komodo Dragon? Smaug from the Hobbit? Puff the Magic Dragon? How did a mythical creature (aside from the aforementioned Komodo) come to be identified with the sort of flexibility you describe? Most of the dragons I've heard of either just fly and spray fire out of their mouths or else play with "Little Jacky Paper" and his ball of twine.


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## MarkC (Jul 16, 2008)

Komodo dragons are nasty beasts. I advise staying away from them.


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## DavidCC (Jul 16, 2008)

Danjo said:


> So what kind of dragon are we talking about then? Komodo Dragon? Smaug from the Hobbit? Puff the Magic Dragon? How did a mythical creature (aside from the aforementioned Komodo) come to be identified with the sort of flexibility you describe? Most of the dragons I've heard of either just fly and spray fire out of their mouths or else play with "Little Jacky Paper" and his ball of twine.


 

Hey Dan I know you are bored with the summer off so why not go read some Chinese mythology.  If you are interested in traditional martial arts it would do you some good.

but really I think you are more interested in mocking people; maybe your time would be better spent training.


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## Danjo (Jul 16, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Hey Dan I know you are bored with the summer off so why not go read some Chinese mythology. If you are interested in traditional martial arts it would do you some good.
> 
> but really I think you are more interested in mocking people; maybe your time would be better spent training.


 
So this is a Chinese form then?


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## marlon (Jul 16, 2008)

Danjo said:


> So what kind of dragon are we talking about then? Komodo Dragon? Smaug from the Hobbit? Puff the Magic Dragon? How did a mythical creature (aside from the aforementioned Komodo) come to be identified with the sort of flexibility you describe? Most of the dragons I've heard of either just fly and spray fire out of their mouths or else play with "Little Jacky Paper" and his ball of twine.


 

often in chinese mythology dragons are associated with magic and in particular shape shifting ability.  the form was created by fred villari and he chose to use a chinese icon to convey what he wanted to teach thrtough the form and probably enjoyed the benefits of marketing something exotic as well.  Nonetheless and very good form

marlon


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## DavidCC (Jul 16, 2008)

Danjo said:


> So this is a Chinese form then?


 
it is as Chinese as Fred Villari could make it!  ROFL


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## Jdokan (Jul 16, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> it is as Chinese as Fred Villari could make it! ROFL


 This form came to fruition shortly after a meal at Weilus' Rt !1 North In Suagus, MA..... LOL.............


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## MeatWad2 (Jul 25, 2008)

In all honesty, when I learned the form from Mr. Villari, he said that the "5 dragons" are the 5 animals and the 4 winds are the 4 main directions one travels in (North, South,  East and West).  You guys are seriously making the form more difficult than it needs to be.  Instead of complicating the thing, just take it for what it's worth.


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## FeralKenpo (Jul 27, 2008)

This form seems so stagnant. In _my _experience with CMA their forms are more alive. I really hope I don't seem like I'm bashing this form or Villari but, what is with the falling down backwards onto the ground? What is he doing on the ground?


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## marlon (Jul 27, 2008)

FeralKenpo said:


> This form seems so stagnant. In _my _experience with CMA their forms are more alive. I really hope I don't seem like I'm bashing this form or Villari but, what is with the falling down backwards onto the ground? What is he doing on the ground?


 
the most basic application is a throw, judo has a similar move.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Danjo (Jul 27, 2008)

marlon said:


> the most basic application is a throw, judo has a similar move.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
So he's practicing GETTING thrown? Kind of odd for a kata. Sort of like reacting to getting punched.


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## DavidCC (Jul 28, 2008)

yeah Danjo, it's just that supid :/

uki waza
ura nage
yoko otoshi
hikikomi gaeshi
and more

now that you have that kaju BB maybe it's time for you to expand your horizons.


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## Danjo (Jul 28, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> yeah Danjo, it's just that supid :/
> 
> uki waza
> ura nage
> ...


 
Most of the time in kata, the reaction to an offensive technique  is to demonstrate the defense for it, i.e., blocks for punches etc., not the reaction to having it done sucessfully to you. Not saying that breakfalls shouldn't be practiced, just that it's odd to see them in a form. If it is supposed to be demonstrating a throw as you suggest, then I just misread his post.  The throws that you're talking about probably wouldn't fit in well with the Kaju philosophy of staying off the ground if possible.


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 28, 2008)

Ya know, maybe it's just me, but I would think you all might have a little more imagination. Could it not be that a person drops underneath say a side kick then racks 'em in say the privates, or maybe the front kick into the inner thigh then the side kick into the privates, before rolling out to the next opponent. And yes, I'm being sarcastic, open the mind. I don't know, I'm just using my imagination. I'll definately ask the question when I get the chance.


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## Danjo (Jul 28, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> Ya know, maybe it's just me, but I would think you all might have a little more imagination. Could it not be that a person drops underneath say a side kick then racks 'em in say the privates, or maybe the front kick into the inner thigh then the side kick into the privates, before rolling out to the next opponent. And yes, I'm being sarcastic, open the mind. I don't know, I'm just using my imagination. I'll definately ask the question when I get the chance.


 
Well, now you're hitting on one of my key issues with kata. Why should one have to use imagination at all? Why aren't the moves "bunkai" explained when the form is taught? It's not like some ancient Chinese or Okinawan form where the creators took their secrets to the grave. The guy who made this one up is still alive. Presumeably he had a particualr technique in mind when he put it in there no? Why do all of these black belts not know the bunkai for their forms?


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## marlon (Jul 28, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Well, now you're hitting on one of my key issues with kata. Why should one have to use imagination at all? Why aren't the moves "bunkai" explained when the form is taught? It's not like some ancient Chinese or Okinawan form where the creators took their secrets to the grave. The guy who made this one up is still alive. Presumeably he had a particualr technique in mind when he put it in there no? Why do all of these black belts not know the bunkai for their forms?


 

there is a set of blocks then a trap pulling the person into the throw. that is the bunkai i have, i have not reason to believe that this is not what Villari taught.  As for imagination, i agree that a cetrtain amount of preset application is good, then in order to grow and keep your practice 'alive' you need to see more and not limit yourself to one application.  There are supposedly complete systems built around one form, if the bunkai one a single response for each move then this would be impossible,.  Even with Okinawan and Chinese styles.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Jdokan (Jul 28, 2008)

Danjo said:


> So he's practicing GETTING thrown? Kind of odd for a kata. Sort of like reacting to getting punched.


 I think an important piece of the puzzle here is for the opponet that is getting throw is to being thinking "what could I do to defend against this?" 
To me each time I am being the uki I think beyond just getting punched...(although there are times when you want to be lazy...Busy world you know)...Seriously...I try to always gauge/evaluate the effectiveness of the technique that is being used against me....My thoughts range from how can I get out of this to "Holy Crap!!!  THAT was effective.... left me totally incapable of reacting"

I do though agree with your point that for some practitioners it may present the wrong training image....I never want my students/partners to practice getting hit....


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 28, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Well, now you're hitting on one of my key issues with kata. Why should one have to use imagination at all? Why aren't the moves "bunkai" explained when the form is taught? It's not like some ancient Chinese or Okinawan form where the creators took their secrets to the grave. The guy who made this one up is still alive. Presumeably he had a particualr technique in mind when he put it in there no? Why do all of these black belts not know the bunkai for their forms?


 
I have to agree with you there, but the point remains, why close off the mind? Does a move have no meaning because someone doesn't tell you what it is? I have some kung fu forms, and let me tell you, when I ask for bunkai, even from the GM, I get sometimes 5 or 6 possible applications for the movement in question. So, whether the person or persons that made the form passed on the original application or not, there are many possibilities. Just because the person that made the form isn't available to me to give me his/her thought doesn't mean the form is useless. Just my two cents.


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## Danjo (Jul 28, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> I have to agree with you there, but the point remains, why close off the mind? Does a move have no meaning because someone doesn't tell you what it is? I have some kung fu forms, and let me tell you, when I ask for bunkai, even from the GM, I get sometimes 5 or 6 possible applications for the movement in question. So, whether the person or persons that made the form passed on the original application or not, there are many possibilities. Just because the person that made the form isn't available to me to give me his/her thought doesn't mean the form is useless. Just my two cents.


 
I agree that that is what we are stuck with with many of the ancient forms. They only passed on the application to a few, or in some cases one, students and the rest of us are left scratching our heads as to what the move could have meant. Add the various stylistic changes over the years and pretty soon not even the creator of the form would recognize it. Oh well.


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 28, 2008)

Danjo said:


> I agree that that is what we are stuck with with many of the ancient forms. They only passed on the application to a few, or in some cases one, students and the rest of us are left scratching our heads as to what the move could have meant. Add the various stylistic changes over the years and pretty soon not even the creator of the form would recognize it. Oh well.


 
I guess we agree on something, or at least at some level. I just don't believe everything was meant to be black and white. Some times it benefits a person to open up the mind and think for themselves. My instructor and I go through some of this stuff and come up with various ways to apply the movements. They aren't always identical to the original, which plays to your comment of the creator not recognizing it, but then it enlightens and elevates the practitioner. So why is it wrong? I don't think it is, but I agree, some of these forms, especially those purposefully changed for no apparent reason other than to be different, from certain organizations not mentioned here, mainly in the SKK lineage, would not be recognized by the creator, and in many instances those changes may actually be laughed at and passed off as "ineffective".


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## Danjo (Jul 28, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> I guess we agree on something, or at least at some level. I just don't believe everything was meant to be black and white. Some times it benefits a person to open up the mind and think for themselves. My instructor and I go through some of this stuff and come up with various ways to apply the movements. They aren't always identical to the original, which plays to your comment of the creator not recognizing it, but then it enlightens and elevates the practitioner. So why is it wrong? I don't think it is, but I agree, some of these forms, especially those purposefully changed for no apparent reason other than to be different, from certain organizations not mentioned here, mainly in the SKK lineage, would not be recognized by the creator, and in many instances those changes may actually be laughed at and passed off as "ineffective".


 
Nothing wrong with being creative and expanding on what you were taught. Just seems like a good idea to know what the original thinking was behind something if it's possible.


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## DavidCC (Jul 28, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> may actually be laughed at and passed off as "ineffective".


 
that really goes both ways, as someone who practices modified version of much of the SKK material, we are befuddled by some of that stuff... jumping scissor kicks, slapping the floor - stuff like that.  But I'm sure others look at what we do the same way.  With the rise of YouTube and similar services, it is now possible for one curious individual to get a look at a multitude of other styles and artists; something that was nearly impossible even 10 years ago.  However I think that this can be bad becasue video is a poor representation, and also most marital artists (and people in general) are not as wise, educated or discerning as they believe.

It's easy to look at a video of something and be completely wrong for at least 4 reasons:

1) video is a 2 dimensional representation, you miss lots of nuance vs in-person observation in 3D. Single point of view often occludes half the mvoements.
2) video is visual and aural; you miss a lot of details that cannot be seen or heard even in the highest definition video image
3) it's easy to confuse "this one instance of execution" with "the ideal exectution"; confusing the performer and his idiosyncracies with the specifics of what the system teaches or how tha tperson might perform the next time or the previous time
4) with most things having multiple layers and categories of information, watching the same instance of something over and over never moves beyond that singular moment of teaching (at best) and so the real depth of any particular thing can never be reached.


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## terryl965 (Jul 28, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> I have to agree with you there, but the point remains, why close off the mind? Does a move have no meaning because someone doesn't tell you what it is? I have some kung fu forms, and let me tell you, when I ask for bunkai, even from the GM, I get sometimes 5 or 6 possible applications for the movement in question. So, whether the person or persons that made the form passed on the original application or not, there are many possibilities. Just because the person that made the form isn't available to me to give me his/her thought doesn't mean the form is useless. Just my two cents.


 

You know what 14 I have Okinawa and TKD and I was tought the same as you here is the set Bunkai but open your mind to all these other possibilities out there, keep an open mind and truely become one with your Art. Sorry could not resist adding my .02 cents here. carry on gentlemen.


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## Danjo (Jul 28, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> You know what 14 I have Okinawa and TKD and I was tought the same as you here is the set Bunkai but open your mind to all these other possibilities out there, keep an open mind and truely become one with your Art. Sorry could not resist adding my .02 cents here. carry on gentlemen.


 
The difference is that the forms from your respective systems are old and the original bunkai is lost, so what choice is there except to try to decode them? The same issue shouldn't exist with forms when the creator is still alive to clear these things up.


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## marlon (Jul 28, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Nothing wrong with being creative and expanding on what you were taught. Just seems like a good idea to know what the original thinking was behind something if it's possible.


 
i agree completely with this, which is why i prefer to see the person who created the form actually do it...this is a very important point

marlon


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## terryl965 (Jul 28, 2008)

Danjo said:


> The difference is that the forms from your respective systems are old and the original bunkai is lost, so what choice is there except to try to decode them? The same issue shouldn't exist with forms when the creator is still alive to clear these things up.


 
Okinawa you are right but TKD yes General Choi passed but when he was alive he said the same thing and showed variation of the Tuls. In KKW thye are still very much around that invented the Poomsae and still they show other variationof said techs.

When I took some Kenpo the instructors always showed some different way to interped what it was they was teaching.

I will just be a by standard here and learn from those that have more knowledge about these forms.


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 28, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Nothing wrong with being creative and expanding on what you were taught. Just seems like a good idea to know what the original thinking was behind something if it's possible.


 
I agree, just not always possible. With ancient forms, cause the originators are no longer with us. With more current forms, especially SKK, cause people don't communicate. All we can do is move on, doesn't mean the forms are completely worthless.


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## John Bishop (Jul 28, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> that really goes both ways, as someone who practices modified version of much of the SKK material, we are befuddled by some of that stuff... jumping scissor kicks, slapping the floor - stuff like that.



Look at Kajukenbo "Palama Set 8".  Those moves were never meant to have a  typical bunkai type application.  It's called the "kicking kata", there are no hand movements, just kicks.  It's basically just a drill to practice various kicks.  
Looks like some of those movements found their way into some of the SKK kata's.  That's where interpretation problems begin, when techniques are taken out of sequence from one form and rearranged into another form.

Palama Set 8 vid clip


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## DavidCC (Jul 28, 2008)

That's very interesting, and it does resemble in many sections some of Pesare's kata.

When I talk to our students about applications taken from kata, I see that they tend to want to be very literal, and that they tend to see the dividing lines between one application and the next in only the most obvious places.  "Block, strike; oh that must be the end of this bunkai, on to the next one" but from what I have learned, it is not really that simple, and what some see as immaterial transitions between the obvious movesis often where te coolest stuff lies hidden.

This is one reason I am starting to favor SETS over KATAS, because nobody expects any hidden secrets in a SET.  It is exactly what it appears to be.  But people are always looking for "bunkai" in Kata, and seem sometimes to miss the forest for the trees.

But I have to ask... why does he place his hands on the ground in this form?


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## John Bishop (Jul 28, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> But I have to ask... why does he place his hands on the ground in this form?



To keep from falling over when you crouch that low.  Again that kata doesn't have any "bunkai", your just practicing different kicks and balance.


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## Matt (Jul 28, 2008)

Danjo said:


> The same issue shouldn't exist with forms when the creator is still alive to clear these things up.



Yep.


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## marlon (Jul 28, 2008)

The same issue shouldn't exist with forms when the creator is still alive to clear these things up.[/quote]

Except Villari, master Fritz and master Grupposso are not talking outside the organization and frankly everyone i have met from in the organization is ...unaware that there are questions to be asked.  So at this point one either quits or makes the best of things.  My opinion is that the system is to good to quit and perhps master Fritz will step up or whenever Fred dies others will open up...but until then we take the advice of Master Ed Parker junior, and do not sell ourselves short!

respectfully,
Marlon


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## ponaterchip (Jul 29, 2008)

I personally don't have this form yet but I currently train  directly under one of GM Villari's Seven Dragons and can tell you from first hand experience he has the bunkai to every form.  He tells me that that's how GM Villari teaches the forms.  That is he learns the application right along with the movements of the form.  When we work on bunkai there is a set "basic" application that is taught right along with the form, as well as a number of more advanced applications that we are meant to discover on our own.  Thus forcing us to explore and better understand the material.  I have also had experience with a couple of other Villari instructors who had no clue as to the bunkai because the didn't care to ask they just assumed they knew everything already.

I don't normally post on the net but felt this would add to this very interesting topic.


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## Danjo (Jul 29, 2008)

ponaterchip said:


> I personally don't have this form yet but I currently train directly under one of GM Villari's Seven Dragons and can tell you from first hand experience he has the bunkai to every form. He tells me that that's how GM Villari teaches the forms. That is he learns the application right along with the movements of the form. When we work on bunkai there is a set "basic" application that is taught right along with the form, as well as a number of more advanced applications that we are meant to discover on our own. Thus forcing us to explore and better understand the material. I have also had experience with a couple of other Villari instructors who had no clue as to the bunkai because the didn't care to ask they just assumed they knew everything already.
> 
> I don't normally post on the net but felt this would add to this very interesting topic.


 
More dragons? Okay, I'll bite: What are Villari's 7 dragons?


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 29, 2008)

Danjo said:


> More dragons? Okay, I'll bite: What are Villari's 7 dragons?


 
Let me guess ... his seven top students


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## ponaterchip (Jul 29, 2008)

The Seven Dragons are indeed Villari's top students (or in this case top masters).  Their job is to keep the organization together after something happens to GM Villari as well as to teach the system the way he intended it to be taught (i.e. the correct bunkai).

Seven Dragons is just a title give to these masters within the organization that is all.  It's just a name.


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## marlon (Jul 29, 2008)

ponaterchip said:


> I personally don't have this form yet but I currently train directly under one of GM Villari's Seven Dragons and can tell you from first hand experience he has the bunkai to every form. He tells me that that's how GM Villari teaches the forms. That is he learns the application right along with the movements of the form. When we work on bunkai there is a set "basic" application that is taught right along with the form, as well as a number of more advanced applications that we are meant to discover on our own. Thus forcing us to explore and better understand the material. I have also had experience with a couple of other Villari instructors who had no clue as to the bunkai because the didn't care to ask they just assumed they knew everything already.
> 
> I don't normally post on the net but felt this would add to this very interesting topic.


 
thank you for your post and the courage you have to post here.  You will find many here that are not necessarily pro-gm Villari.  Most are here to grow and become better martial artists and or scientists . Personally i appreciate his system and contribution to the martial arts very much, and my experience with the business practices are..unfulfilling.  I welcome you to share with us your positive experiences and knowledge and please do not let the bashing get to you.  You are lucky to have the instructors you have!

respectfully,
marlon


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## MeatWad2 (Aug 1, 2008)

ponaterchip said:


> The Seven Dragons are indeed Villari's top students (or in this case top masters).  Their job is to keep the organization together after something happens to GM Villari as well as to teach the system the way he intended it to be taught (i.e. the correct bunkai).
> 
> Seven Dragons is just a title give to these masters within the organization that is all.  It's just a name.



In all honesty, I have to question the abilities of some of the 7 Dragons.  I've seen them, and quite frankly, a couple of them don't deserve to be there at all.  The techniques that I've seen them teach (either via video or in person) aren't effective at all.  Why let a people like that take over the system?  The person that should be Villari's top student is Master Fritz.  Where is he nowadays?  Not anywhere in a school from what I've understood...


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## marlon (Aug 1, 2008)

MeatWad2 said:


> In all honesty, I have to question the abilities of some of the 7 Dragons. I've seen them, and quite frankly, a couple of them don't deserve to be there at all. The techniques that I've seen them teach (either via video or in person) aren't effective at all. Why let a people like that take over the system? The person that should be Villari's top student is Master Fritz. Where is he nowadays? Not anywhere in a school from what I've understood...


 

Master Fritz is teaching and teaching very well from what i know.  There was a Jshannon (sp?) on MT a while back who regularly learned from him.  He has an impressive body of knowledge and skill master Fritz.  Jshannon does not post on martial talk any more b/c he felt he had to defend his choice of organization overmuch.  However, i do agree of all the top students of GM Villari  John Fritz is clearly the only choice of successor...then there is politics which is not a useful topic of discussion

respectfully,
Marlon


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