# All kinds of requirements to rip students off! Is this normal?



## kehcorpz (Jul 30, 2016)

Do you also have stuff like that in your dojo?

I checked out stuff online and they're all very similar and try to create extra costs for the students everywhere they can!

For example you have to buy shirts and pants at their online shops! You can't just go there with your own white shirt.

Noooh, you need to buy white shirts from their store which have their symbol on them. And they are way overprice!

You also have to buy the protection equipment at their store, too!!!

And what also REALLY bothers me is that in one school for example there's a summer break which lasts 1,5 months. During
this time there's no training. Nothing! And you still pay for it cause you join for 12 months and you pay for 12 months!

Now imagine there are spring breaks and winter breaks, too, then you get 2-3 months every year without training but full pay.

I don't want to pay for the teacher's hotel costs when he's on vacation. Argh.

Would you accept any of this? Seriously stuff like this already upsets me so much that I think I won't even consider checking
out places like that.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2016)

My gym doesn't. But we are a bit different.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 30, 2016)

They benefit from pricing people out. If you feel that a requirement that a class be uniform, and that you wear the uniform, or a school T-Shirt is just too much out of pocket, you might not be in their demographic.


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## JR 137 (Jul 30, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Do you also have stuff like that in your dojo?
> 
> I checked out stuff online and they're all very similar and try to create extra costs for the students everywhere they can!
> 
> ...



Part of a lot of martial arts is uniforms.  Everyone wears the same thing.  Everyone at my dojo wears a white gi with the same patches.  No exceptions.  My former dojo allowed a t-shirt during the summer that they sold.  It had the organization's logo on it.  You could wear that or the gi.  You could buy your gi anywhere, but the t-shirt was only available through them.

That's not a McDojo thing, that's an everyone wears the same thing thing.

My former dojo also had everyone wear the same sparring gear.  It had our organization's logo on it, only available through them.  It was priced a little bit less than catalog price (pre-internet days). Why? Two fold - everyone wore the same thing, and there was no question about the safety gear.  Not McDojo stuff to me.

My former organization's founder was a Vietnam vet and former career Marine.  Hence the uniformity.  Not McDojo stuff.

As for the cost of the dojo in question's policies, add everything up including tuition for a full year.  Compare the total cost to others' total cost.  Then judge if they're ripping people off.  Could be McDojo, could be normal.

Looks like you found yet another dojo to avoid.  How's that working out for you?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 30, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Do you also have stuff like that in your dojo?
> 
> I checked out stuff online and they're all very similar and try to create extra costs for the students everywhere they can!
> 
> ...



How DARE they pay their bills? Why... I'll bet they actually PAID for their last meal, too, rather than digging it out of a dumpster behind the McDonalds.



kehcorpz said:


> And what also REALLY bothers me is that in one school for example there's a summer break which lasts 1,5 months. During
> this time there's no training. Nothing! And you still pay for it cause you join for 12 months and you pay for 12 months!



WHAT??? Who the hell does this person think they are? How DARE they take a vacation???



kehcorpz said:


> Now imagine there are spring breaks and winter breaks, too, then you get 2-3 months every year without training but full pay.



Now imagine that you actually got off your butt and trained, instead of just whining on the internet.



kehcorpz said:


> I don't want to pay for the teacher's hotel costs when he's on vacation. Argh.



How DARE they earn a living? They should be living in their mothers basement and teaching this stuff for free, 24/7/365!



kehcorpz said:


> Would you accept any of this? Seriously stuff like this already upsets me so much that I think I won't even consider checking
> out places like that.



That's ok. It's pretty clear that you don't have any intention of ever actually training.[/QUOTE]


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## Tired_Yeti (Jul 30, 2016)

I'm with you, OP. Personally, think it's ridiculous. I understand the need for club logos during competition. So you should need ONE uniform with patches, etc. The rest is merchandising. Unless you need to wear a colored belt for some reason, seems you could train in nearly anything. 


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Danny T (Jul 30, 2016)

We require students to wear our Training Center shirt and pants.
We require BJJ students to wear our Training Center Gi.
We require our Muay Thai students to wear our Training Center thai shorts and training center shirt.
We require our CSW & MMA students to wear our training center fight shorts and training center shirt.
We require our students to pay a fee to train.

We require our student to have basic equipment, gloves, wraps, shin guards, mouth guard, groin protection. We have this in stock but they can purchase elsewhere as long as it is of good quality that we approve.

We provide focus mitts, thai pads, belly pads, kicking shields, skip ropes, heavy bags, speed bags, double end bags, grappling dummies, weights, tread mill, stationary bike, rowing machine, kettle bells, dumb bells, sledgehammers, tires, weighted sledge, medicine balls, slam balls, battle ropes, boxing ring, outside training area with heavy bags. Matted training floors, padded walls, crash pads for throws, clean rest rooms, clean changing rooms, 5000 feet of clean mopped matted training areas. Electricity, water, AC/Heat, music, a place for students to safely keep their personal items while training, parking lot, and toilet paper, paper towels, tissue paper, soap, tape, cleaning supplies, trash bags, trash disposal, insurance, and so much more.

We also have staff available to speak with any student or family member concerning anything that has to do with the training center, training, equipment, safety, other concerns. They like to pay their bills and to take care of their families also so of course they require payment for their services.
Let's see seems there is something else rather important...Oh yea; we also provide the instruction for all schedule classes year round.

If we are a McDojo because of what we charge and what we require students to wear so be it.


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## JR 137 (Jul 30, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> How DARE they pay their bills? Why... I'll bet they actually PAID for their last meal, too, rather than digging it out of a dumpster behind the McDonalds.



Exactly.  Every business needs to make money, or they cease to exist (even not for profit businesses). Every person needs to make money, or they cease to eat.

Well, I guess every business except for MA schools and every person except for MA teachers.  MA schools are built by magic fairies, require no maintenance, and aren't required to pay taxes and utilities.  MA teachers get all their nutrition from the air they breathe, and the same fairies that built their schools give them whatever they want, whenever they want because everyone knows MA teachers are the only people in this cruel and crazy world who can and are making a difference.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 30, 2016)

How much is the yearly fee?


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2016)

I ain't saying she's a gold digger but she ain't messing with no broke ninjer.

Ultimately this is why you support clubs you feel have integrity because the clubs that want to squeeze the extra cash are operating on basic economic principles. If people vote with their wallets then the clubs will have to become competitive to survive.

I don't like having to buy the team gear. I do a martial art that does not force that issue.


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## Tames D (Jul 30, 2016)

@ Kehcorpz: Did you ever get that MRI? It must have been ok if you are only worried about paying a dojo for a service.


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## Balrog (Jul 31, 2016)

We require uniforms.  Saturday is casual day - black workout pants and an ATA t-shirt, which they can buy from us or at a tournament.  Sparring gear is branded and mandatory, because our insurance won't cover incidents using non-branded gear.

Now the closings during the summer....if it's for 6 weeks, I personally would not bill for that time.  One week is not an issue, two weeks is stretching it.  But that brings up another thought:  vacations...what a concept.  I need one badly.


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## Tez3 (Jul 31, 2016)

Tired_Yeti said:


> I'm with you, OP. Personally, think it's ridiculous. I understand the need for club logos during competition. So you should need ONE uniform with patches, etc. The rest is merchandising. Unless you need to wear a colored belt for some reason, seems you could train in nearly anything.
> 
> 
> "Re-stomp the groin"
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk




The OP has been at this for weeks and weeks, looking for excuses not to train instead just asking questions on here. I doubt this place is how he says, it's just another excuse not to train or even start training.


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## frank raud (Jul 31, 2016)

Do judo. White gi, no patches. No tshirts, no protective gear. But I doubt you will.


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## Tired_Yeti (Jul 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The OP has been at this for weeks and weeks, looking for excuses not to train instead just asking questions on here. I doubt this place is how he says, it's just another excuse not to train or even start training.



Oh, I see. That's pretty weird. If you don't want to do it, then don't. Who needs an excuse? Bottom line: You do what the club requires or you find a new club...or go back to sitting in a dark room playing Call of Duty all day, I guess.

OP, I understand fussing about the extra clothing purchases, etc. but you can't reasonably expect someone to spend YEARS training, earn a 3rd Dan, then just train you for nothing. Martial arts training costs money (like ALL hobbies).


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Jul 31, 2016)

Tired_Yeti said:


> Oh, I see. That's pretty weird. If you don't want to do it, then don't. Who needs an excuse? Bottom line: You do what the club requires or you find a new club...or go back to sitting in a dark room playing Call of Duty all day, I guess.
> 
> 
> "Re-stomp the groin"
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk



Since his first post in May it's been questions then reasons why he can't train this or that.


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## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?

I simply refuse to pay monthly fees if you get no training at all for 1,5 months. This is crazy.

And the fees are pretty high. It's 45 euros. You train 4 times per months. This means every session costs 10 euros.
This is pretty crazy when you think about it.


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## Phobius (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?
> 
> I simply refuse to pay monthly fees if you get no training at all for 1,5 months. This is crazy.
> 
> ...



Just find a club and train already. Stop caring if it is good or bad. Take the one club that gives you most classes per dollar to start out with. After you have trained it for a while to get some exercise can you start worrying about what is best. Right now best for you is just to get your *** off the couch.


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## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

The problem is that in most schools you have to sign up for 12 months! This means you cant just train a while and see how it goes and then switch to something else.

This is what keeps me from just trying something out. This is like if you want to check out a tv series you have to buy all 20 seasons instead of just buying season 1 and it
it sucks you dont by any more seasons.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Do you also have stuff like that in your dojo?
> 
> I checked out stuff online and they're all very similar and try to create extra costs for the students everywhere they can!
> 
> ...


None of that is onerous. Many traditional schools wrap the cost of a uniform in their start-up fees (not much different from the shirt they're requiring). The cost for 12 months (a year) would be higher if they had classes during those weeks they are closed. Take the total, divide it by 10.5, and that's your monthly rate. If they're quoting a monthly rate and multiplying by 12, they need to fix the math. The protection gear purchase shouldn't be a big deal if you are getting a price simliar to what you'd pay elsewhere for similar gear. Likely the few dollars they make on that helps keep the monthly cost down. My only objection would be if there's no option for paying monthly, as most students don't last out a year. 

If the overall amount is higher than you'd pay for similar training and gear elsewhere, then go elsewhere. If not, it doesn't really matter how they structure the payments (aside from the requirement for annual payment).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?
> 
> I simply refuse to pay monthly fees if you get no training at all for 1,5 months. This is crazy.
> 
> ...


That's not terribly expensive, at least not for the states. A school that doesn't have 100 students probably wouldn't be able to stay open charging that little, what with the cost of rent, utilities, insurance, etc. There'd be no income for the instructor.

As for Judo and self-defense, it's the first art I actually had to use for defending myself, and it worked quite well.


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## Azulx (Jul 31, 2016)

Yeah man I feel you on that. Uniforms,psshhh, what are we in high school? You and I both know that uniforms are incredibly unrealistic for self-defense. Like who wears their gi around in public? I rather wear my real clothes, because that what I will be wearing if I get jumped. Judo, that's bull. Try Amerido-te. It's incredible. Honestly you should only be training MMA in a cage no uniforms it's the most realistic. Juw-jitsu is where it's at as well. But, and this is is a BIG but, only juw-jitsu if it's FREE. If they charge it's McBlowjo and those are the worst kind of dojos. The one's that charge, stay far way from those. I heard the best street juw-jitsu instructors are found in alley ways, completely free. Look for guy in the trench coat, that's Sifu. Tell Sifu you want to learn fo free. He tell you yes just for the price of an organ. Trust me bro that's where it's at. If all else fails, Master Ken is getting his 13th Dan in Amerido-te and has over 2 years experience so he will probably give you the best bang for your buck too.


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## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

But these are not uniforms.

In the wing chun schools you have to wear white shirts and black pants. That's what they wrote me in the emails as replies.

But you can't just buy yourself a normal white shirt and black pants. Noooh, you need to buy their white shirts  and black pants from the store which have little symbols

and these shirts are way more expensive and overpriced.

And their protection equipment is very likely also much more expensive than on the free market. I'd rather buy equipment where it's the cheapest.

What if their stuff sucks and comes from China and contains all kinds of toxins? I bet they buy cheap and sell high.

They are definitely not doing this to save the students from having to look online for good equpiment....


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But these are not uniforms.
> 
> In the wing chun schools you have to wear white shirts and black pants. That's what they wrote me in the emails as replies.
> 
> ...


Yes, they are uniforms. They may not be "traditional", but if everyone's wearing the same thing, that's a uniform. It's what "uniform" means.

And you may be looking at a dissimilar shirt for cost comparison. If I were choosing shirts for training, I'd choose something significantly beefier than a "normal" shirt. And it would end up costing more - perhaps a lot more. If it's twice as expensive, but lasts 5 times as long, it's a better deal for the students. Plus, maybe some marketing for the school, which gets more training partners and keeps costs down.

You say they are "definitely not doing this to save the students money". How do you know. I buy uniforms at wholesale and sell them below retail to ensure my students buy quality gear. Same with sparring gear. You're assuming something not yet in evidence. You've even had another instructor emphasize that they require students buy their gear for insurance and safety purposes.

Either go check it out in person and make an informed decision, or just quit assuming and go do something else with your time.

No excuse for what you're doing.


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## Danny T (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But these are not uniforms.
> 
> In the wing chun schools you have to wear white shirts and black pants. That's what they wrote me in the emails as replies.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the World.
1. The world isn't here for you.
2. That includes the Martial Arts world as well.
3. It will cost you $$$ for anything of value.
4. In the martial arts it will cost you time, money, physical effort, mental effort, loyalty, respect of self and others, discipline, equipment, travel, and much more.

It is easy to find excuses or to find fault when that is what you are looking for. No place is perfect, no instructor is perfect, no student is either.


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## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.

One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.

How silly is this? Ever heard of washing machines? Why do I need 3 pairs or more when I can just wash the stuff after a training?

This is just plain silly.

Yeah, I'll directly buy 10 pairs. No wait, better make it 15. Do you accept credit card?


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## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

I forgot that the schools also have mandatory exams which, of course, also cost extra money. 

I just want to learn to defend myself and not get a diploma. This is once again just to rip off people.


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## Danny T (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.
> 
> One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.
> 
> ...


Hey they let you know up front you probably need more than 1 set of uniforms. That is better than you finding out afterwards. We have students who train every day. It may be hard for you to understand or even believe but they actually appreciate having more than one uniform. Some even do a couple of classes a day and want clean dry clothes for their next class.
Yeah that is just plain silly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.
> 
> One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.
> 
> ...


"Probably" means a recommendation. Don't think you need it, don't buy them until you're sure.

You're still making excuses. Those will get you absolutely nowhere anywhere in life.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I forgot that the schools also have mandatory exams which, of course, also cost extra money.
> 
> I just want to learn to defend myself and not get a diploma. This is once again just to rip off people.


Again, not necessarily. Some charge too much for that, some (like a school I used to train in) just do it to recoup for the time and cost of testing, belts, certificates, etc.

Personally, I build that into my fees for now. I may change my mind later.

If you don't want ranks, find a school that doesn't have them. They are fairly traditional in many arts, and most follow the traditions of their arts. That's not a rip-off, and ranks do serve a useful purpose (though they are certainly not necessary).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.
> 
> One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.
> 
> ...


Oh, and I personally have 3 uniforms. I teach twice a week. Do the math - that's more uniforms than I have classes. It's just to make sure I always have a clean one (including a spare, in case of seminars, etc.), without having to do a load of laundry every time. In my entire training career, I've ALWAYS had at least two uniforms in rotation.


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## JR 137 (Jul 31, 2016)

Staying here and constantly posting about how bad every school and art around you are does have a solid benefit - you've saved plenty of instructors many headaches.

If you're this nit picky now, I can't imagine how bad you'll be once you step foot in a school.  I never thought I'd say this to anyone, but...  I don't think the martial arts are for you.  You should endlessly contemplate a different hobby.


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## Juany118 (Jul 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The OP has been at this for weeks and weeks, looking for excuses not to train instead just asking questions on here. I doubt this place is how he says, it's just another excuse not to train or even start training.



I wouldn't say that.  I think what he is doing is first, looking for a school that caters to him like high end service industries, say an expensive restaurant, but at a bargain price.

Second he doesn't want to do what many of us did.  First many of us have exposure to numerous arts.  We might have said "damn that was a waste of 6 months at the school" but we have said exposure.  When we finally found the right fit of art AND teacher, it could have taken years.  I think he honestly wants to find a place to settle down an learn BUT wants to do so without the growing pains. In other words they came here hoping to avoid the hurdles many of us have already overcome.

The problem is there MUST be growing pains.  Everyone is physically and mentally different so what works for me may be a square peg to their round hole.  Next the teacher.  Any martial art experience can be made, or broken, by the teacher.


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## kuniggety (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?
> 
> I simply refuse to pay monthly fees if you get no training at all for 1,5 months. This is crazy.
> 
> ...



Yeah, because getting good at grabbing people and throwing to the ground, choking them out, or breaking their limbs isn't beneficial at all for self defense.

$60 (~55 euros) is a typical going rate for once a week in the US. That's the price of a few pizzas. Sooooo expensive.

The 6 week break while still collecting tuition is a little bunk to me though.


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## Azulx (Aug 1, 2016)

@kehcorpz I can't tell if you are joking or not, but if you aren't I'll put a couple things into perspective for you. I started my first formal MA training about 2 years ago. My first art was Tae Kwon Do/ Korean Karate. I had to pay a $50 lifetime membership fee, which included a "free" uniform. This uniform was a 6 oz. white gi, that whole sales for about $18. That's right I payed $50 for an $18 gi. Do I care no, because it's a business. The classes were 2 times a week, for $75. That is actually the average price of schools in my area. Some TKD schools were up to $150 a month. Then I got very very VERY lucky. My instructor left the school and started his own club at a Recreation Center. There he charged $20 a month for 3 times a week. Then I bought two gis for $85 one was a 8 oz and the other was a 10 oz. Those uniforms were much better and now I don't have to worry about washing just one uniform. We also allow the use of our club shirt instead of the jacket it's $15 not bad for a shirt. The my luck continued. I met a guy who volunteers at a local gym and teaches self-defense jiu-jitsu for no cost. All I had to do was buy Jiu-Jitsu Gi, this was $50. So uniforms are pretty regular. Gym fees are regular. What are you even willing to pay? Are you even willing to pay? My range would be no more than $200 a month and at least 4 classes a week. If I was to join a commercial school and not a small MA club.


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## Tez3 (Aug 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I wouldn't say that.  I think what he is doing is first, looking for a school that caters to him like high end service industries, say an expensive restaurant, but at a bargain price.
> 
> Second he doesn't want to do what many of us did.  First many of us have exposure to numerous arts.  We might have said "damn that was a waste of 6 months at the school" but we have said exposure.  When we finally found the right fit of art AND teacher, it could have taken years.  I think he honestly wants to find a place to settle down an learn BUT wants to do so without the growing pains. In other words they came here hoping to avoid the hurdles many of us have already overcome.
> 
> The problem is there MUST be growing pains.  Everyone is physically and mentally different so what works for me may be a square peg to their round hole.  Next the teacher.  Any martial art experience can be made, or broken, by the teacher.



Have you read all his posts on all his threads, I have which is what leads me to say what I did.


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## Juany118 (Aug 1, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Have you read all his posts on all his threads, I have which is what leads me to say what I did.



Oh I have, as such I have come to one of two conclusions, he is either a troll OR waiting for someone to tell him "this martial art and these techniques are the secret sauce...find a place that teaches this...". Everything else, if not a troll, is a person who appears to be looking for an excuse not to take a chance himself and learn by experience (and cash) what art or teacher in his area works for him.  I have little doubt in either case that he engages in hyperbole to justify the inaction however.

I basically see the questions as a product of our internet age. 
1. Expect product reviews on-line to tell you what to buy. (Us)
2. Expect some place to provide a steep discount vs the others (the actual providers.)

The problem is we all study the art today that we do because it fits us so the reviews are suspect and you will not find big differences in price on brick and mortar swords, which is what Martial Arts schools are.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

kuniggety said:


> Yeah, because getting good at grabbing people and throwing to the ground, choking them out, or breaking their limbs isn't beneficial at all for self defense.
> 
> $60 (~55 euros) is a typical going rate for once a week in the US. That's the price of a few pizzas. Sooooo expensive.
> 
> The 6 week break while still collecting tuition is a little bunk to me though.


By my estimation, he's not actually still collecting tuition. The OP refers to an annual payment. If the school is closed for 6 weeks, I don't see how you can manage to pay for the entire year and not include those 6 weeks - that's just how an annual fee works. Presumably (and it's an assumption, yes) the annual fee is to cover 46 weeks, rather than 52.


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2016)

Azulx said:


> @kehcorpz I can't tell if you are joking or not, but if you aren't I'll put a couple things into perspective for you. I started my first formal MA training about 2 years ago. My first art was Tae Kwon Do/ Korean Karate. I had to pay a $50 lifetime membership fee, which included a "free" uniform. This uniform was a 6 oz. white gi, that whole sales for about $18. That's right I payed $50 for an $18 gi. Do I care no, because it's a business. The classes were 2 times a week, for $75. That is actually the average price of schools in my area. Some TKD schools were up to $150 a month. Then I got very very VERY lucky. My instructor left the school and started his own club at a Recreation Center. There he charged $20 a month for 3 times a week. Then I bought two gis for $85 one was a 8 oz and the other was a 10 oz. Those uniforms were much better and now I don't have to worry about washing just one uniform. We also allow the use of our club shirt instead of the jacket it's $15 not bad for a shirt. The my luck continued. I met a guy who volunteers at a local gym and teaches self-defense jiu-jitsu for no cost. All I had to do was buy Jiu-Jitsu Gi, this was $50. So uniforms are pretty regular. Gym fees are regular. What are you even willing to pay? Are you even willing to pay? My range would be no more than $200 a month and at least 4 classes a week. If I was to join a commercial school and not a small MA club.



We are $120 a month. 6 days a week. No holidays. We trained on Christmas.


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## Grenadier (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.



Schools sell merchandise at a slightly higher price, in order to bring money into the school.  Monthly rent doesn't take care of itself, and I highly doubt that the electric company and water works will decide not to charge you anything.  

A school isn't going to be any good to anyone, if it goes out of business.  

Sure, you could probably buy your own uniforms from the usual bulk sources (AWMA, Century, etc), and save a few bucks.  However, the school's owner would probably benefit a lot more, if you simply bought from him / her at that slightly elevated price.  While it's certainly true that as a beginner, it's more of a matter of "what can the school do for me," as you become more advanced, it also becomes a matter of "what can I do for the school."  




> One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.



That's quite a valid point.  



> How silly is this? Ever heard of washing machines? Why do I need 3 pairs or more when I can just wash the stuff after a training?



It's not silly at all.  I actually have 3 gi's that I use, so that I don't have to fire up the washing machine after every day.  If you had to use the washing machine every day, that would get quite expensive, since I'm pretty sure that you're not going to waste a laundry cycle on only one uniform.  This is, of course, assuming that you have your own washing machine.  Otherwise, if you had to go to the coin laundry every day, you'd be burning through a lot more money than what you would had you bought more than one uniform.  



> This is just plain silly.



No, it's simply logical and practical.  I'm going to be a bit blunt here and simply suggest that you do the math.  You will see that I am right.  



> Yeah, I'll directly buy 10 pairs. No wait, better make it 15. Do you accept credit card?



You're not going to win any appreciable level of sympathy here, especially with your exaggerated statements.  

Many of the folks in this community are advanced practitioners, who have been at it for decades.  They have an idea of what it takes to operate a school, and that it's not all daisies and roses.


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## kuniggety (Aug 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> By my estimation, he's not actually still collecting tuition. The OP refers to an annual payment. If the school is closed for 6 weeks, I don't see how you can manage to pay for the entire year and not include those 6 weeks - that's just how an annual fee works. Presumably (and it's an assumption, yes) the annual fee is to cover 46 weeks, rather than 52.



I was thinking about that too. I have seen/heard of schools doing an auto-payment for a reduced rate. Maybe it's because I haven't trained at a small enough school but I haven't seen any shut down like that. If the instructor takes a break then assistant instructors just cover for them for awhile.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

kuniggety said:


> I was thinking about that too. I have seen/heard of schools doing an auto-payment for a reduced rate. Maybe it's because I haven't trained at a small enough school but I haven't seen any shut down like that. If the instructor takes a break then assistant instructors just cover for them for awhile.


Yeah, that was my experience, too. If I go on vacation, though, there's nobody to take over. The study groups can continue (any student can marshal those), but there's nobody else to teach classes.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 1, 2016)

Would it not bother you if you have to sign on for 12 months and then think okay at least I get 12 months of training for 45 bucks every month
which means if you train 4 times per month every single training costs 10 bucks and THEN you find out that the teacher likes to take breaks which
last 6 weeks and during this time you get no training at all?

And the 6 week break is only for summer. I bet during winter and spring he also takes breaks. THEN they should clearly tell you in the description
how long you actually get to train per year.

Stuff like this really pisses me off. And what also bothers me is that most websites do NOT even tell you the exact prices they only give you vague ranges telling you that the exact price can be discussed when you go there for free training. 

Why not simply tell the people how much it costs in the first place? Why try to lure them into the school first?!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Would it not bother you if you have to sign on for 12 months and then think okay at least I get 12 months of training for 45 bucks every month
> which means if you train 4 times per month every single training costs 10 bucks and THEN you find out that the teacher likes to take breaks which
> last 6 weeks and during this time you get no training at all?
> 
> ...


No, because I'd just do the math this way: $540 per year = 11.74 per week (assuming 46 weeks). That's less than my students pay.

As for not giving an exact price, in many cases it's because there are options. My students can sign up for 2/week or (when I start offering more) unlimited/week. They can save money by paying by quarter or year. They get a discount if they have multiple family members attending. Sometimes I run a Groupon deal. If I put all of that on my site, fewer people will show up. It's an established effect (pretty much anyone in sales knows this): too many options leads a portion of customers to NOT buy.


----------



## Grenadier (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Why not simply tell the people how much it costs in the first place? Why try to lure them into the school first?!



Because not all schools are equal.  Some people who are simply looking at dollar amounts are going to automatically avoid schools that are even slightly more costly than the cheapest school.  

You may want to look the experiences shared by others, when it comes to running a commercial school.  I think you'll find such reading to be very educational and informative.  

The easiest way to help someone make an informed decision is to have them come into the school, so that he can see what goes on, that the people are receiving quality instruction, that the facility is a good one, and that it's also a safe place to train.  Web pages or phone calls aren't going to tell the whole picture. 

I've had some people come in and initially balk at having to pay a bit more than what the bottom feeder of the area charges, but once they see how classes are run, how the students are getting excellent returns on their investments of time and money, and that they can train in a healthy and safe manner, that price difference becomes a non-issue.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?



Who the hell told you that? First off it doesn't suck for self defense. It is very viable for self defense, and second don't listen to people when it comes X style sucks and y style is better.

That kind of thinking will not help you, right now you literally nothing about anything,you have to experience these things before you can even come close to an accurate and valid opinion.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> No, because I'd just do the math this way: $540 per year = 11.74 per week (assuming 46 weeks). That's less than my students pay.
> 
> As for not giving an exact price, in many cases it's because there are options. My students can sign up for 2/week or (when I start offering more) unlimited/week. They can save money by paying by quarter or year. They get a discount if they have multiple family members attending. Sometimes I run a Groupon deal. If I put all of that on my site, fewer people will show up. It's an established effect (pretty much anyone in sales knows this): too many options leads a portion of customers to NOT buy.



540 for the entire year!? Geez I would kill for that price. My place is like 1grand a year.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> 540 for the entire year!? Geez I would kill for that price. My place is like 1grand a year.


Agreed. When I last trained full-time, I was paying something like $1,400 a year.


----------



## kehcorpz (Aug 1, 2016)

Ok maybe there are good reasons not to tell the exact price right away.
But the first impression which I get from that is negative. If I feel being ripped off
then I also wouldnt feel comfortable going there. Then it wouldnt work.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Ok maybe there are good reasons not to tell the exact price right away.
> But the first impression which I get from that is negative. If I feel being ripped off
> then I also wouldnt feel comfortable going there. Then it wouldnt work.



Do you know how expensive it is to run a dojo? I can show you some values from my business homework if you'd like, from my portfolio I made my hypothetical Dojo wouldn't even start making any money until the SECOND YEAR it would be open.


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## WaterGal (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?
> 
> I simply refuse to pay monthly fees if you get no training at all for 1,5 months. This is crazy.
> 
> ...



Why is that crazy?  Where I live, $10/class is pretty normal for a fitness-type class.  I think the yoga place in my town charges ~$15/class unless you buy a season pass, and I don't live in an urban or expensive area.

If the guy is saying "it's 45 euros per month, and you still have to pay during the 6 weeks I go on vacation", that does seem like a strange way of billing, and I can understand why someone might balk at that.  It would probably better for him to say that it's 54 euros a month for 10 months worth of classes and you won't be charged for the 8 weeks he's closed (assuming he takes a Christmas vacation, so another 2 weeks off).  But that's just marketing - it's the same amount of money in total.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 1, 2016)

The thing is that it's not even set in stone how long you actually get to train per year!

How long his "personal vacations" last is up to him. He may be away 6 weeks and maybe the next year he's aways 8 weeks and then?

Whatcha gonna do then? Change schools? You can't do that. You have to pay for the rest of the 12 months.

ALSO the stuff he teaches is his very own system of wing chun which means that if you switch to another school you'll probably have a hard
time adapting!


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

Then pay month to month. That or make friends with some of the other students and train with them in the the sifus off time. There are ways around these problems if you are willing to actually solve them instead of just using them as excuses to not even try.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 1, 2016)

But in this school you cannot pay month for month.


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## Juany118 (Aug 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, that was my experience, too. If I go on vacation, though, there's nobody to take over. The study groups can continue (any student can marshal those), but there's nobody else to teach classes.



Yeah, my school is small but we have assistant instructors, which is good because his "day job" has him on the road teaching classes and giving presentations.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But in this school you cannot pay month for month.


Yes but most schools, while there may not be "teaching" allow students to form "study groups" where senior students help people practice what has been taught to date.  Have you asked if such groups exist?


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> No, because I'd just do the math this way: $540 per year = 11.74 per week (assuming 46 weeks). That's less than my students pay.
> 
> As for not giving an exact price, in many cases it's because there are options. My students can sign up for 2/week or (when I start offering more) unlimited/week. They can save money by paying by quarter or year. They get a discount if they have multiple family members attending. Sometimes I run a Groupon deal. If I put all of that on my site, fewer people will show up. It's an established effect (pretty much anyone in sales knows this): too many options leads a portion of customers to NOT buy.



Pretty much.  My Brother in Law is an assistant instructor at a local TKD school.  When I told him my school has two fee schedules $60 a month for part time (my current schedule since I work 12 hour shifts) and $80 for full-time he said "what?!?!?" That's cheap.  I had to explain that the School is mostly non-profit and the Sifu got a deal on the lease for the space because the school is in the same building as his day job, a Consultancy he's the CEO of, then it made sense to him.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Would it not bother you if you have to sign on for 12 months and then think okay at least I get 12 months of training for 45 bucks every month
> which means if you train 4 times per month every single training costs 10 bucks and THEN you find out that the teacher likes to take breaks which
> last 6 weeks and during this time you get no training at all?
> 
> ...



Seriously dude.  Do boxing.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Seriously dude.  Do boxing.



But the gloves and mouht piece and headgear will be too expensive! They are ripping me off!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> The thing is that it's not even set in stone how long you actually get to train per year!
> 
> How long his "personal vacations" last is up to him. He may be away 6 weeks and maybe the next year he's aways 8 weeks and then?
> 
> ...


Whining, griping, and excuses. Still.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Yes but most schools, while there may not be "teaching" allow students to form "study groups" where senior students help people practice what has been taught to date.  Have you asked if such groups exist?


This is what I did for my students for the times when I'm not there.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2016)

Hmm took you off my ignore list when I saw you had started a new thread (was not logged on). Figured with the break you were gone you had actually started training, and were reporting your progress. Apparently not. Back to ignoring


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Who the hell told you that? First off it doesn't suck for self defense. It is very viable for self defense, and second don't listen to people when it comes X style sucks and y style is better.
> 
> That kind of thinking will not help you, right now you literally nothing about anything,you have to experience these things before you can even come close to an accurate and valid opinion.



Yeah I was trying to tell him elsewhere that, for the most part, there is no "better" or "worse" MA if they were created to fight other MAs so if a technique didn't work for you it is possibly a valid answer to say "you did it wrong.". 3 things are the primary sources of failure imo, if the instructor is a good one...

1. You made a mistake
2. The other guy was better than you.
3. Your skill was equal but the other guy was physically superior to you (size, strength, speed, conditioning etc)


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Yeah I was trying to tell him elsewhere that, for the most part, there is no "better" or "worse" MA if they were created to fight other MAs so if a technique didn't work for you it is possibly a valid answer to say "you did it wrong.". 3 things are the primary sources of failure imo, if the instructor is a good one...
> 
> 1. You made a mistake
> 2. The other guy was better than you.
> 3. Your skill was equal but the other guy was physically superior to you (size, strength, speed, conditioning etc)



Exactly, some people believe there are better styles and is a "best style". Those people tend to be I'll informed or drank too much of the kool aid.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Exactly, some people believe there are better styles and is a "best style". Those people tend to be I'll informed or drank too much of the kool aid.



So any method anybody comes up with is as valid as any other method.

Where is that ww3 guy when people are saying this? 

Because people were apparently incorrectly saying his method was flawed.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So any method anybody comes up with is as valid as any other method.
> 
> Where is that ww3 guy when people are saying this?
> 
> Because people were apparently incorrectly saying his method was flawed.



There is a difference between a legitimate fighting system that has been tested time and time again vs some random **** someone makes up on the spot.


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> There is a difference between a legitimate fighting system that has been tested time and time again vs some random **** someone makes up on the spot.



Not if all styles are equal.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Not if all styles are equal.



You're splitting hairs. You know what I mean.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You're splitting hairs. You know what I mean.



No idea what you mean. 

If there are styles that are unequal. How are styles equal.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> No idea what you mean.
> 
> If there are styles that are unequal. How are styles equal.



You're being unBEARable and that's normally my thing.

Anyway I guess I was wrong. I'll realobarate, the majority of fighting styles, mainly the ones that have been around for a long time therefore stood the test of time and have been tried and tested time and time again. Are pretty equal, and success vs other styles will always depend on the practitioner and not in the style itself.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You're being unBEARable and that's normally my thing.
> 
> Anyway I guess I was wrong. I'll realobarate, the majority of fighting styles, mainly the ones that have been around for a long time therefore stood the test of time and have been tried and tested time and time again. Are pretty equal, and success vs other styles will always depend on the practitioner and not in the style itself.



So if a crap style lasts long enough it becomes a valid style.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

It won't last long if it's crap.


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## Juany118 (Aug 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It won't last long if it's crap.


Ahh but the "MMA is best" people will try to tell you otherwise.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Ahh but the "MMA is best" people will try to tell you otherwise.



And they also tell me ed hardy and tapout shirts make you look cool. I been steadily worrying less and less what others think and it has resulted in me enjoying what I do more and more.


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## Blindside (Aug 2, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It won't last long if it's crap.



Unfortunately there isn't much of a selection process in martial arts these days.  The sport martial arts have a great method of testing out there material in a competitive method, everyone who doesn't play in those arenas has no such guarantees.  The crap that is out there is unbelievable, and long lived, the very survival and continued propagation of the kiddie karate franchises attest to that.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Unfortunately there isn't much of a selection process in martial arts these days.  The sport martial arts have a great method of testing out there material in a competitive method, everyone who doesn't play in those arenas has no such guarantees.  The crap that is out there is unbelievable, and long lived, the very survival and continued propagation of the kiddie karate franchises attest to that.



That's the thing though, karate has been tried and tested countless times and just when it is considered obsolete or inferior it always comes back and becomes relevant again.

Just because there exists bad examples doesn't make the entire art bad. I can name two shitty mma gyms off the top of my head ( I won't because that's against the rules), but that doesn't make mma or any of its arts bad simply because there are bad places for it.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 2, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> That's the thing though, karate has been tried and tested countless times and just when it is considered obsolete or inferior it always comes back and becomes relevant again.
> 
> Just because there exists bad examples doesn't make the entire art bad. I can name two shitty mma gyms off the top of my head ( I won't because that's against the rules), but that doesn't make mma or any of its arts bad simply because there are bad places for it.



No one or two or five gyms/kwoons/dojos/whatever prove or disprove the validity of an entire art.  How do you test the validity of what a MMA gym teaches?  You ask who the fighters are and what their fight records are.  Oh, you don't produce fighters?  Hmmm, that should raise red flags.  

How do you do it for a karate studio? How do you do it for Joe Bob's Tactical Fisticuffs that just opened up with all the new evolved fighting method?


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> No one or two or five gyms/kwoons/dojos/whatever prove or disprove the validity of an entire art.  How do you test the validity of what a MMA gym teaches?  You ask who the fighters are and what their fight records are.  Oh, you don't produce fighters?  Hmmm, that should raise red flags.
> 
> How do you do it for a karate studio? How do you do it for Joe Bob's Tactical Fisticuffs that just opened up with all the new evolved fighting method?



I guess our rows of medals and attics full of trophies have something to do with it.


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## Juany118 (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> No one or two or five gyms/kwoons/dojos/whatever prove or disprove the validity of an entire art.  How do you test the validity of what a MMA gym teaches?  You ask who the fighters are and what their fight records are.  Oh, you don't produce fighters?  Hmmm, that should raise red flags.
> 
> How do you do it for a karate studio? How do you do it for Joe Bob's Tactical Fisticuffs that just opened up with all the new evolved fighting method?



That is why to me you should NOT only look for a Martial art that fits you but an instructor that is appropriate.  Below is a rough approximation of how I did things and it took me almost a year to find a guy that wasnt a 35-45 minute drive away that taught Inosanto Kali and as a combative to boot. If my Guro/Sifu ever retires I will like be forced to drive that far because it's only other place that teaches it as a combative in the area. Critiques of the following process are appreciated.

Before you even try the school out...

1. Look for a Martial art that was designed for combat/real fighting vs point sparing.

2. Talk to the instructor.  Don't ask him what he teaches you should know that before calling/emailing.  Rather be honest and say something like I did.  I made it clear to numerous instructors that I was a LEO looking for martial arts training that first and foremost had practical street applications.  I lucked out maybe in that I had 3 instructors that said yes (the two Kali and one KM) but a number that were honest the other way as well.  Some may have hedged and said "well it can be used for self defense" but they were honest and said that for my application, not so much.

3. Listen to how they describe their style of teaching.  Do they say "street encounters" or "combatives" vs "self defense", "competition" and "discipline".  If they say things similar to the first 2 ask them if they teach outside the school.  If they say they do seminars and blocks of instruction for local, state or federal LE (which can be verified rather easily) you are probably on the right track.  Don't be afraid to ask if they have experience in real defense situations.

I say this one because if they teach stuff to LEOs it will get around if its crap on the street and the contracts will dry up.

Try them out, most schools let you at least for a class or two.  If they do...

1. Do they have tween or younger black belts?  That imo is a red flag.
2. Do they spar when you are there?  If not ask their rules.  If their sparring is point based and stopped, to me this is a red flag.  If however the sparring is all out for seniors, (controlled for juniors), and then after time, safety stop, tko or submission etc, an evaluation is done this is a good sign because fights don't stop for points.  Example when we spar with Knives in Kali we put chalk on the knives.  Our uniforms are black.  After a sparring session the Guro/Sifu evaluates who got cut more, where and how severely based on the chalk marks but during the fight it is all out.  If you aren't breathing heavy you did something wrong.  Yes we wear gloves, forearm guards eye protection and helmets (if the head has been declared a viable target.)
3. What techniques are taught.  Just about every Martial art has "cheap shots." Are they taught or simply talked about?

There are other things as well, some you may not discover for weeks or months after you start, but these I think are a good starting point to determine if you should sign that contract.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 2, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I guess our rows of medals and attics full of trophies have something to do with it.



So competition is your measurement of how to judge good karate?  I am totally fine with that but I suspect many karateka would disagree.  And would note that most of the competition that many karate schools (or TKD or Kenpo or whatever) now compete in is a far cry from what the scrum that is a real fight.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Ahh but the "MMA is best" people will try to tell you otherwise.



Unless you are wearing a belt.  Then the entire mechanics of fighting changes.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> So competition is your measurement of how to judge good karate?  I am totally fine with that but I suspect many karateka would disagree.  And would note that most of the competition that many karate schools (or TKD or Kenpo or whatever) now compete in is a far cry from what the scrum that is a real fight.



That was kinda my point with how you spar actually.  Fights don't go punch>block>kick>block>punch>punch>point "break!"

Fights don't even always go until one side quits/taps out.  I fight usually goes balls to the wall until one or both parties are literally incapable of continuing, it gets broken up by A LOT of people (or authority figures) or one person seeing an opening to run like their life depended on it.  Also, not always but often, the point method of sparring tends to have people focused on simply hitting and not getting hit.  This dynamic means that often your strikes aren't as strong as they could be.  In a real fight you can't be afraid to take a hit because it may cost you a point.  Instead you need to be willing to let your butt hang in the breeze a bit not only so you can land serious hits but minimize the risk of handing the initiative to the other guy.

This isn't to say point fighting is completely without benefit.  Example, often a competition will, based on points, force you to execute a balance of techniques (like some Must Thai I have seen) or force you to focus on the key techniques (I have seen Savate competitions where 3 punches in a row is still only worth one point, same as a single punch, they must be broken up with kicks and knees.) This can be good, especially for new students, in adapting to a new martial art.


----------



## Phobius (Aug 2, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Ok maybe there are good reasons not to tell the exact price right away.
> But the first impression which I get from that is negative. If I feel being ripped off
> then I also wouldnt feel comfortable going there. Then it wouldnt work.



I have the solution for you. Don't train martial art at all. Truth is you do not have what it takes.

You have a problem with risk of being ripped off or selecting the wrong school. Imagine the problems you will go through deciding whether to dodge left or right in a fight.

As for feeling ripped off, you get more ripped off driving your car. More ripped off when buying food, heck even paying for your place to live. You get ripped off paying taxes, eating at a restaurant, working.... heck you get ripped off by just breathing as someone is polluting the air at the expense of your health.

This is all business. And your teacher will never go on an 8 week vacation, reason being following:

1. He lives and breath Kung Fu. (hopefully).
2. He can not afford it.
3. He has a business to run and if students do not pay an additional 12 months then he will be unable to eat in a years time.
4. He wants his students to become great so they can become instructors and help out as well.

You however still fall into the category "currently not suited for martial arts training". Either prove us wrong or stay away from martial arts.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So any method anybody comes up with is as valid as any other method.
> 
> Where is that ww3 guy when people are saying this?
> 
> Because people were apparently incorrectly saying his method was flawed.


Strawman argument.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Not if all styles are equal.


Nobody said that. You're doing again what you've denied doing in the past: you are overstating someone's point (strawman fallacy) in order to be able to argue against it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Unfortunately there isn't much of a selection process in martial arts these days.  The sport martial arts have a great method of testing out there material in a competitive method, everyone who doesn't play in those arenas has no such guarantees.  The crap that is out there is unbelievable, and long lived, the very survival and continued propagation of the kiddie karate franchises attest to that.


Actually, competition is no guarantee of quality, beyond it being a good match for the sport in question. There are some competitions out there that feature what I'd call crappy martial arts, except that it's perfectly suited to that particular competition. Some competitions test the "fightability" of a system, while others only test the ability to win that particular type of competition.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> No one or two or five gyms/kwoons/dojos/whatever prove or disprove the validity of an entire art.  How do you test the validity of what a MMA gym teaches?  You ask who the fighters are and what their fight records are.  Oh, you don't produce fighters?  Hmmm, that should raise red flags.
> 
> How do you do it for a karate studio? How do you do it for Joe Bob's Tactical Fisticuffs that just opened up with all the new evolved fighting method?


You're assuming that the only valid purpose for MMA is MMA competition. There's a legitimate argument for MMA as a self-defense training method. Many folks training for self-defense have no interest in the beatings and injuries inherent in heavy competition (I train specifically to avoid getting things like head injuries). If someone was training folks MMA-style without entering them in competitions (perhaps only rolling/sparring within the school) that need not be a red flag, unless you are planning to compete.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> 3. Listen to how they describe their style of teaching.  Do they say "street encounters" or "combatives" vs "self defense", "competition" and "discipline".  If they say things similar to the first 2 ask them if they teach outside the school.  If they say they do seminars and blocks of instruction for local, state or federal LE (which can be verified rather easily) you are probably on the right track.  Don't be afraid to ask if they have experience in real defense situations.


Why do you consider "combatives" a better vocabulary word than "self-defense"? I know very few instructors who wouldn't consider those interchangeable - the former more "in vogue" today than the latter. And the use of the word "discipline" is not a bad thing - I'd want any instructor (teaching long-term students) to use that term, unless they teach with a very loose hand. 

It sounds like you're expecting them to know your script. I know an instructor who has taught DT at three different states' police academies (changing states as he moved over the last 20 years). He would use the term "self-defense". He is a retired LEO and has plenty of experience using the techniques he teaches, but I've never (even when he was talking to other LEO's) heard him use the term "combatives" or "street encounters".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> So competition is your measurement of how to judge good karate?  I am totally fine with that but I suspect many karateka would disagree.  And would note that most of the competition that many karate schools (or TKD or Kenpo or whatever) now compete in is a far cry from what the scrum that is a real fight.


So, what do you suggest is a valid test of an art? I don't know any competitions that really look much like a real fight. MMA is about as close as you get, from what I've seen.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 2, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> And what also bothers me is that most websites do NOT even tell you the exact prices they only give you vague ranges telling you that the exact price can be discussed when you go there for free training.
> 
> Why not simply tell the people how much it costs in the first place? Why try to lure them into the school first?!


I don't list my prices on my website nor will I discuss price over the phone unless you have actually come in and done some complimentary training.
I want you know what you are getting, I want you to meet the staff and talk with them, I want you to meet some of the other students/members and speak with them. I want you to meet and speak with some of the instructors/coaches. I want you to actually see and experience what we have to offer. Then we will talk about the different membership options we have available and the associated cost. I want you have first hand knowledge of what you are purchasing.
If you don't come in you will never know if my price is of any value.
Also 'IF' you only come in because of price you will also leave because of price. I want members who value what we have to offer.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Why do you consider "combatives" a better vocabulary word than "self-defense"? I know very few instructors who wouldn't consider those interchangeable - the former more "in vogue" today than the latter. And the use of the word "discipline" is not a bad thing - I'd want any instructor (teaching long-term students) to use that term, unless they teach with a very loose hand.
> 
> It sounds like you're expecting them to know your script. I know an instructor who has taught DT at three different states' police academies (changing states as he moved over the last 20 years). He would use the term "self-defense". He is a retired LEO and has plenty of experience using the techniques he teaches, but I've never (even when he was talking to other LEO's) heard him use the term "combatives" or "street encounters".




I have just found a difference in experience tbh.  Most people who study martial arts, today, will say "self defense" even if they, or their students, have never known a blow to have been struck in anger.  However, again purely anecdotal your mileage may vary, those who can point to real world experience use the terms "street encounters" or "combatives" can draw on direct experience.  I also do not find discipline a bad thing...but I see and have heard the heads of schools dodge the two terms I previously mentioned and instead focus on discipline. Again just my personal experience.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I have just found a difference in experience tbh.  Most people who study martial arts, today, will say "self defense" even if they, or their students, have never known a blow to have been struck in anger.  However, again purely anecdotal your mileage may vary, those who can point to real world experience use the terms "street encounters" or "combatives" can draw on direct experience.  I also do not find discipline a bad thing...but I see and have heard the heads of schools dodge the two terms I previously mentioned and instead focus on discipline. Again just my personal experience.



Interesting. The only folks I've run into who use the term "combatives" are teaching Gracie Combatives (or something similar). It's a marketing term for them. Thanks for sharing your experiences.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> So, what do you suggest is a valid test of an art? I don't know any competitions that really look much like a real fight. MMA is about as close as you get, from what I've seen.



There isn't much of one these days, which is part of my point, there are few crucibles that really test people anymore.  What I find is that schools that test themselves in sport arenas have an approach to their training that is different, they understand resistance, they incorporate it into the not-sport side of things.  Or at least they do it more often.  



gpseymour said:


> You're assuming that the only valid purpose for MMA is MMA competition. There's a legitimate argument for MMA as a self-defense training method. Many folks training for self-defense have no interest in the beatings and injuries inherent in heavy competition (I train specifically to avoid getting things like head injuries). If someone was training folks MMA-style without entering them in competitions (perhaps only rolling/sparring within the school) that need not be a red flag, unless you are planning to compete.



I don't think everyone needs to compete, I do think that there needs to be regular infusions of a fighter's experience into a system otherwise it can go off the rails into fantasy land.  Most of the guys in my group are ex-Judo guys, they innately undestand resistance training even though what I teach is Kali.  I have been participating in Dog Brothers and other similar events for several years now to build my own experience in the fight game and several of my guys have also participated in Gatherings.  I actually have an internal policy for my club that to become a full instructor you will participate in a DB Gathering (exceptions for health/age reasons), I want my instructors to experience fighting strangers who they don't trust, it isn't a real fight but it is more like it than most things I can simulate.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Interesting. The only folks I've run into who use the term "combatives" are teaching Gracie Combatives (or something similar). It's a marketing term for them. Thanks for sharing your experiences.


My Guro/Sifu's day job is being the CEO of a consultancy that teaches everything from sex crimes and interrogation to unarmed combatives to firearms training.  That may also have something to do with it since, as I understand it, Gracie Combatives have a similar LE focus.

In the end my point really was (and it may have been missed) "know what you are really looking for, ask specific questions, expect similarly specific answers.  If you don't get them (one way or the other) move on.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> There isn't much of one these days, which is part of my point, there are few crucibles that really test people anymore.  What I find is that schools that test themselves in sport arenas have an approach to their training that is different, they understand resistance, they incorporate it into the not-sport side of things.  Or at least they do it more often.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think everyone needs to compete, I do think that there needs to be regular infusions of a fighter's experience into a system otherwise it can go off the rails into fantasy land.  Most of the guys in my group are ex-Judo guys, they innately undestand resistance training even though what I teach is Kali.  I have been participating in Dog Brothers and other similar events for several years now to build my own experience in the fight game and several of my guys have also participated in Gatherings.  I actually have an internal policy for my club that to become a full instructor you will participate in a DB Gathering (exceptions for health/age reasons), I want my instructors to experience fighting strangers who they don't trust, it isn't a real fight but it is more like it than most things I can simulate.


Okay, I see where you're coming from. My argument would be that what works in a competition is not necessarily what works in the street. I do like getting an infusion from someone trained to compete (even if it's just a sparring-heavy school), like a student I have now who trained 8 years in Shotokan with tons of sparring. I also want infusions from time to time from folks who have street experiences from a reasonable basis (LEO's, bouncers, etc.). The former brings me people who question our approach (which I value), because we teach how to avoid the resistance rather than always having to overcome it. The latter group brings a perspective that's more realistic - not dealing with people who are trained to counter your moves and know to some extent what you're about to try.

When I was in my 30's, I could play with Judo players. If they had equal training and skill in their art, they'd beat me (because we're playing their game), but I held my own. But that was me working against someone trained to stop me from throwing them, someone who understands the basic counters to grappling moves and can recognize most of the techniques coming their way. That's not reality on the street.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> My Guro/Sifu's day job is being the CEO of a consultancy that teaches everything from sex crimes and interrogation to unarmed combatives to firearms training.  That may also have something to do with it since, as I understand it, Gracie Combatives have a similar LE focus.
> 
> In the end my point really was (and it may have been missed) "know what you are really looking for, ask specific questions, expect similarly specific answers.  If you don't get them (one way or the other) move on.


You made your point quite well, actually. I just wanted to dig a bit at your reasoning for that part of it. I like to make sure I understand how people react to different wording, so I'm speaking to the right audience when marketing. I don't want everyone - just the folks who will get exactly what they need/want from what I teach.


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## Juany118 (Aug 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> You made your point quite well, actually. I just wanted to dig a bit at your reasoning for that part of it. I like to make sure I understand how people react to different wording, so I'm speaking to the right audience when marketing. I don't want everyone - just the folks who will get exactly what they need/want from what I teach.



And this is perfect tbh.  I know dang well my requirements are different than 95% of the people out there, at the moment, when I retire they will change (thank God) My point was more to clarify that the questions I asked were specific to my needs and people need to focus on "their needs" and apply some critical thinking when they listen to the responses.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> When I was in my 30's, I could play with Judo players. If they had equal training and skill in their art, they'd beat me (because we're playing their game), but I held my own. But that was me working against someone trained to stop me from throwing them, someone who understands the basic counters to grappling moves and can recognize most of the techniques coming their way. That's not reality on the street.



One of the problems with many "self-defense instructors" is that they don't know what "the street" is.  I don't.  I have been in two fist fights in my adult life, I have talked down an angry guy with a machete at close range.  I have done all the good good self-defense techniques of "don't be an *******" and "live in a decent neighborhood" and "avoid young males drinking alcohol" and "verbal deesclation" that I haven't had to do the "reality on the street" too often.  So I don't train for the untrained guy on the street, I train for a competent adversary, one that knows how to punch, grapple, and use a variety of weapons, I figure if I can deal with that then "the street" should be easier.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> That was kinda my point with how you spar actually.  Fights don't go punch>block>kick>block>punch>punch>point "break!"
> 
> Fights don't even always go until one side quits/taps out.  I fight usually goes balls to the wall until one or both parties are literally incapable of continuing, it gets broken up by A LOT of people (or authority figures) or one person seeing an opening to run like their life depended on it.  Also, not always but often, the point method of sparring tends to have people focused on simply hitting and not getting hit.  This dynamic means that often your strikes aren't as strong as they could be.  In a real fight you can't be afraid to take a hit because it may cost you a point.  Instead you need to be willing to let your butt hang in the breeze a bit not only so you can land serious hits but minimize the risk of handing the initiative to the other guy.
> 
> This isn't to say point fighting is completely without benefit.  Example, often a competition will, based on points, force you to execute a balance of techniques (like some Must Thai I have seen) or force you to focus on the key techniques (I have seen Savate competitions where 3 punches in a row is still only worth one point, same as a single punch, they must be broken up with kicks and knees.) This can be good, especially for new students, in adapting to a new martial art.



I don't think the point system in say, muay Thai has anything near the sort of effect you are suggesting.

A knock out will still win a fight regardless of points. This is exactly the same as a real fight.

Knock outs can also be achieved without having to stand and trade. Or hanging your butt out in the breeze as you said. You can "real fight"smart and safely if you want. You choose how you want to fight.


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## Blindside (Aug 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I don't think the point system in say, muay Thai has anything near the sort of effect you are suggesting.
> 
> A knock out will still win a fight regardless of points. This is exactly the same as a real fight.
> 
> Knock outs can also be achieved without having to stand and trade. Or hanging your butt out in the breeze as you said. You can "real fight"smart and safely if you want. You choose how you want to fight.



I think he is referring to karate style stop and go point fighting.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> I think he is referring to karate style stop and go point fighting.



He specifically said muay Thai. I don't think he understands much about fight sports.


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## Blindside (Aug 2, 2016)

I missed that.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> If someone was training folks MMA-style without entering them in competitions (perhaps only rolling/sparring within the school) that need not be a red flag, unless you are planning to compete.



I know a lot of people who train MMA without wanting to fight as I know a good many traditional people who train but don't want to fight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> One of the problems with many "self-defense instructors" is that they don't know what "the street" is.  I don't.  I have been in two fist fights in my adult life, I have talked down an angry guy with a machete at close range.  I have done all the good good self-defense techniques of "don't be an *******" and "live in a decent neighborhood" and "avoid young males drinking alcohol" and "verbal deesclation" that I haven't had to do the "reality on the street" too often.  So I don't train for the untrained guy on the street, I train for a competent adversary, one that knows how to punch, grapple, and use a variety of weapons, I figure if I can deal with that then "the street" should be easier.


It should be, but there are things the unskilled guy will do that the skilled one won't. If you only practice for the skilled guy, you don't get to practice those things (big haymakers, tackles, for example). Also, if I train for sparring/randori (exclusively), then I'm training for how to work against someone who knows what I do, and that's easily the least likely possible scenario on the street. We all definitely need to work on how to deal with someone who is skilled, but that's not all we need.

Of course, the other side of this is also that I can't possibly teach a new student how to defend against me. I have to start them with how to defend against a bumbling idiot (which most of us were when we started) and work up from there.


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## Juany118 (Aug 2, 2016)

Blindside said:


> I think he is referring to karate style stop and go point fighting.


Yes; Karate, TKD etc.  I actually said somewhere that I see the traditional Thai system (as an example) as a good one.  Not only because it doesn't stop but the traditional one also looks for techniques.  If you don't use a good balance of techniques, say you are punching 75-80% of the time, you get gigged.  I am assuming you were responding to someone I have on ignore, the only one actually, since for some reason they troll virtually everything I say, even if they lack articulable facts or experience to present.  It especially frustrating at times since I have agreed with them on issues to say 95% on a point but they do a 180 over the 5%


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## drop bear (Aug 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Yes; Karate, TKD etc.  I actually said somewhere that I see the traditional Thai system (as an example) as a good one.  Not only because it doesn't stop but the traditional one also looks for techniques.  If you don't use a good balance of techniques, say you are punching 75-80% of the time, you get gigged.  I am assuming you were responding to someone I have on ignore, the only one actually, since for some reason they troll virtually everything I say, even if they lack articulable facts or experience to present.  It especially frustrating at times since I have agreed with them on issues to say 95% on a point but they do a 180 over the 5%



You make stuff up.  Blatantly.  And then deny you said it.


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## JR 137 (Aug 2, 2016)

Why didn't I think of this before...

The perfect art for you is Kyokushin karate.  Yes, you have to buy a gi that may be a bit expensive (they almost all use embroidered Isami brand), but it's a quality gi.  Many Kyokushin dojos are bare knuckle, so that cuts down on gear (except for a cup and mouthpiece; some strongly advise shin guards).

Kyokushin is bare knuckle/knockdown, so there's the whole what works and doesn't aspect.

Many have pay per lesson plans, so there's your no contract clause.

But I'm sure you'll find Kyokushin quite objectionable somehow.


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## drop bear (Aug 2, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Why didn't I think of this before...
> 
> The perfect art for you is Kyokushin karate.  Yes, you have to buy a gi that may be a bit expensive (they almost all use embroidered Isami brand), but it's a quality gi.  Many Kyokushin dojos are bare knuckle, so that cuts down on gear (except for a cup and mouthpiece; some strongly advise shin guards).
> 
> ...



There is a whole bunch of stuff that would work.

I think he is suffering from ninja disillusionment. Which I didn't get until a few years in.

You know where you do all this martial arts stuff and find out that even though you want it to be a certain way. It never actually is.

Like the first time you Spar multiples or Spar unarmed vs knife. And realise you are going to get hospitalised if you tried that for real.

You think it is going to be this.






And the reality is this.


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## JR 137 (Aug 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is a whole bunch of stuff that would work.



I'm just waiting to hear his reasons why Kyokushin sucks too.  I'm sure there's many deluded reasons.


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## drop bear (Aug 2, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I'm just waiting to hear his reasons why Kyokushin sucks too.  I'm sure there's many deluded reasons.



Yeah. Sorry I added to that. I assume he wants the fantasy on the packaging not what is actually in the box.


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## JR 137 (Aug 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Sorry I added to that. I assume he wants the fantasy on the packaging not what is actually in the box.



It'll be all great until someone throws a roundhouse to his head or punch to his ribs, he's got to do knuckle push-ups on hardwood floors, show respect to his teachers and classmates, etc.  Shouldn't they have to pay you for all that?

And I really like the "fantasy packaging and not what's actually in the box" line.  I've got to remember that one; it'll come in handy.


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## Tired_Yeti (Aug 3, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?
> 
> I simply refuse to pay monthly fees if you get no training at all for 1,5 months. This is crazy.
> 
> ...



Honestly, when considering if a martial art is "good" or not, you have to consider the context. A paintbrush is a perfect tool but it's not effective to drive nails. A hammer is a perfect tool but it's not effective to paint a wall.
True story: One time at work, I had a guy grab me and try to put me in a headlock. I executed a hip throw and tossed him onto the concrete floor. He wasn't hurt too badly but he stopped. In that case, Judo was effective. In other situations it might not be. What works and doesn't depends on the context.

Really, the only way to decide if a club is worth your time and money is to join, train, and after awhile you'll know if your getting what you want or wasting your time. Go for it!




"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Aug 3, 2016)

Tired_Yeti said:


> Honestly, when considering if a martial art is "good" or not, you have to consider the context. A paintbrush is a perfect tool but it's not effective to drive nails. A hammer is a perfect tool but it's not effective to paint a wall.
> True story: One time at work, I had a guy grab me and try to put me in a headlock. I executed a hip throw and tossed him onto the concrete floor. He wasn't hurt too badly but he stopped. In that case, Judo was effective. In other situations it might not be. What works and doesn't depends on the context.
> 
> Really, the only way to decide if a club is worth your time and money is to join, train, and after awhile you'll know if your getting what you want or wasting your time. Go for it!
> ...



Context goes down that rabbit hole though. 

It works on the street so it doesn't have to work anywhere else.


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## Tired_Yeti (Aug 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Context goes down that rabbit hole though.
> 
> It works on the street so it doesn't have to work anywhere else.


Meaning?


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## kehcorpz (Aug 3, 2016)

Danny T said:


> I don't list my prices on my website nor will I discuss price over the phone unless you have actually come in and done some complimentary training.
> I want you know what you are getting, I want you to meet the staff and talk with them, I want you to meet some of the other students/members and speak with them. I want you to meet and speak with some of the instructors/coaches. I want you to actually see and experience what we have to offer.



Ok I accept that.

Then tell me what exactly should one expect to get when you're checking a place out?

What if they're just like "you're new? ok, you can train with this guy here". and that's it?

What should be on my checklist so that I know if a place sucks or not?


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Ok I accept that.
> 
> Then tell me what exactly should one expect to get when you're checking a place out?
> 
> ...



Go step by step:

Step 1 - Get off your butt and actually go to a school.
Step 2 - Talk to instructor(s).
Step 3 - Watch a class
Step 4 - Get off your butt and go train.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 4, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Go step by step:
> 
> Step 1 - Get off your butt and actually go to a school.
> Step 2 - Talk to instructor(s).
> ...



This doesn't address my questions.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> This doesn't address my questions.



It does, actually.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 4, 2016)

No it does not. It does not even mention 1 indictator.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> No it does not. It does not even mention 1 indictator.


You're right it didn't you want to know why? Because we're not your instructors go to a school and ask the /instructor/ questions that's how you'll learn. I can't keep up with all your bs is there a reason why you haven't actually done it...


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## Juany118 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> This doesn't address my questions.



In a way it does.  Martial Arts training is like any other commerical product, the only way to actually be able to determine if it is worth the cost or a rip off is to actually try it.


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## drop bear (Aug 4, 2016)

Tired_Yeti said:


> Meaning?
> 
> 
> "Re-stomp the groin"
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk



Ok.  I teach drop bear fu.  Which is the ultimate self defence martial art.

Now i may not be able to make my techniques work on you in say a gym. But that is not the context i teach.

You may towel me up sparring but that is not relevant to what i do.

I have never won a competition but i am disadvantaged by rules.

But my method will work in self defence because it is specifically designed to work in that environment.

So my issue isnt taking functional techniques and ajusting them to a task. 

It is rationalising non functional techniques.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> No it does not. It does not even mention 1 indictator.



Sure it did. The first indicator is your unwillingness to get off your *** and actually go to a school. That indicates that you won't learn anything at all.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 5, 2016)

well in our school we used black Gi and Patches too but you have to buy it the only patch you will earn is swat Team patch black belt club and outstanding attendance patch and yes you can buy T shirt too on summer I have like 6 T shirt and its worth it because my Instructor and his karate studio is the best even your sparring gear you have to buy it nothing is for free.  what the used of going to karate studio not buying their stuff


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## JR 137 (Aug 5, 2016)

Have you physically gone into a school to visit yet?


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## Historyofkarate (Aug 5, 2016)

I completely agree that that is frustrating even though they are just trying to pay the bills so they can keep their doors open. (Btw paying the bills to keep your door open at a martial arts school isn't an easy task.)


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## Andrew Green (Aug 5, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> This doesn't address my questions.



How's this: If any of your potential schools saw your profile here they likely would not accept you as a student, to big of a headache.

You seem to want a 5-star steak and lobster tail prepared by Gordon Ramsay personally, but at McDonalds prices... and to bring your own no-name soft drink instead of paying for one at the restaurant as they are marked up too much.

Quality has a cost.  Martial Arts schools are businesses.  We will do what is in the best interest of our students as a whole, because that makes us money.  We won't do what is in the best interest of a individual if it hurts everyone else.  Uniforms are a benefit to a school, it's part of the price of training.  It also benefits the students.  Testing fees?  Well, some will do them, others will just roll that into the monthly tuition, you're paying it regardless as it has a cost attached to it for the school.  

A school closing for a length of time is fine, as long as they are upfront.  Lots of schools are very kid based, and taking summer months off when the kids are out of school happens in some schools.  Getting a vacation when you own a business is a hard thing to do.  And guess what?  If they where open for those 6-weeks they'd probably bump the tuition up to cover it.


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## JR 137 (Aug 5, 2016)

Maybe they close for those 6 weeks because hardly anyone shows up?


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## KangTsai (Aug 14, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Do you also have stuff like that in your dojo?
> 
> I checked out stuff online and they're all very similar and try to create extra costs for the students everywhere they can!
> 
> ...



Yeah, my MMA place houses professionals so naturally they sell things. Clothes are about as costly as moderate clothes prices, and they sell branded gear. Very reasonable prices however and great looks honestly.

Also, since the gym is competitively active, that means it's ALWAYS open and classes are regular even throughout holidays. It costs ≈$16US a week for full access to the facility at any open time.


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## Tired_Yeti (Aug 14, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Yeah, my MMA place houses professionals so naturally they sell things. Clothes are about as costly as moderate clothes prices, and they sell branded gear. Very reasonable prices however and great looks honestly.
> 
> Also, since the gym is competitively active, that means it's ALWAYS open and classes are regular even throughout holidays. It costs ≈$16US a week for full access to the facility at any open time.


That's great! I used to train at a place that charged $65/month for only 2 nights/weekly. That was pretty much what everyone was charging around town. 




"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 18, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Self-defense is now ILLEGAL in the UK.
> 
> Self-defense is now ILLEGAL in the UK
> 
> ...





kehcorpz said:


> Do you also have stuff like that in your dojo?
> 
> I checked out stuff online and they're all very similar and try to create extra costs for the students everywhere they can!
> 
> ...



imho

seems kinda dodgy. i would try n look for another dojo because it seems like there ripping u of.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 18, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> imho
> 
> seems kinda dodgy. i would try n look for another dojo because it seems like there ripping u of.


Don't take anything that guy posts seriously look through his profile he thinks he knows everything that martial arts should do but refuses to even go and watch a class. He's basically the forum joke.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 18, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> seems kinda dodgy.



No, it seems like someone running a business who wants to keep the doors open, eat, AND live a normal live. You know, with days off and stuff.



senseiblackbelt said:


> i would try n look for another dojo



He's not looking for any dojo. He's looking for excuses not to train.



senseiblackbelt said:


> because it seems like there ripping u of.



Kind if like you were ripped off by whoever taught you English without explaining the difference between there they're and their?

And just an FYI, this is from the TOS you agreed to:


> *4.2.3 Leet-Speak / IM Shorthand / LOL-Speak*
> 
> Do not use "l33t speak" and IM style writing. Common abbreviations, such as ROFL (Roll On the Floor Laughing), IMHO (In My Humble Opinion), and other such commonly used acronyms are fine, but sentences written in text which replaces numbers and / or symbols for letters, is not allowed.


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## stonewall1350 (Aug 18, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Do you also have stuff like that in your dojo?
> 
> I checked out stuff online and they're all very similar and try to create extra costs for the students everywhere they can!
> 
> ...



You have to look around for the gyms that aren't about money. They are usually dirty, smell like sweat, and feature the adult practitioners who are blue collar. Not the rich kids. I found one in my town, though the gym owner requires you buy his equipment (so you don't show up with idiotic equipment and break your hand and sue him). But he keeps a ton of free gear and gives you major discounts on the equipment you do buy...even for arts he doesn't teach. 

that might explain why his has been In business for 25 years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> He's not looking for any dojo. He's looking for excuses not to train.




This.


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 19, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, it seems like someone running a business who wants to keep the doors open, eat, AND live a normal live. You know, with days off and stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i ripped myself off if that make sense.. i dont pay attention in english.. or in any other subject for the matter.

and about the whole abbreviation thing..

can i please know the reason why were not allowed to use abbreviations... its hard not 2. 
i mean its hard not to.


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 19, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Don't take anything that guy posts seriously look through his profile he thinks he knows everything that martial arts should do but refuses to even go and watch a class. He's basically the forum joke.



please dont tell me youre talking to me.

i dont think i know ' everything about martitalart' because i dont.


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## Tez3 (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> can i please know the reason why were not allowed to use abbreviations... its hard not 2.
> i mean its hard not to.



It's because most of us can't understand what you are talking about. To you and your mates it might be second nature to talk and write like this but for most of us it's not so we are left scratching our heads wondering what on earth you are talking about, it's called communication.


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## Tez3 (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> please dont tell me youre talking to me.
> 
> i dont think i know ' everything about martitalart' because i dont.



He's talking* to* you *not about* you. ( Remember the communication thing, this is why we write 'proper' English?) he's talking about the OP who has many threads like this one criticising martial arts.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> please dont tell me youre talking to me.
> 
> i dont think i know ' everything about martitalart' because i dont.


Yes I am talking to you about the op...


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> i ripped myself off if that make sense.. i dont pay attention in english.. or in any other subject for the matter.
> 
> and about the whole abbreviation thing..
> 
> ...


Here's the reason you're not allowed because that's the rules and you agreed to them my friend, if someone's naturally not got good English and they read abbreviations they won't have a clue what you're on about is it really that difficult to write for example you instead of u


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> and about the whole abbreviation thing..
> 
> can i please know the reason why were not allowed to use abbreviations... its hard not 2.
> i mean its hard not to.


Because I'm old and it looks like you are just hitting random keys. I have no idea that your trying to communicate something.


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 19, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yes I am talking to you about the op...


my mood got a whole lot betta. even though

dont u thhink thats a bit harsh i mean come on..


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 19, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> He's talking* to* you *not about* you. ( Remember the communication thing, this is why we write 'proper' English?) he's talking about the OP who has many threads like this one criticising martial arts.



critisizes martial arts? no offense to the op but if u critisize it so much y even bother being on this forum?



hoshin1600 said:


> Because I'm old and it looks like you are just hitting random keys. I have no idea that your trying to communicate something.



fair enough. ill try to use proper enligsh next time


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> my mood got a whole lot betta. even though
> 
> dont u thhink thats a bit harsh i mean come on..


No not at all when he first started on here everyone tried to help him but then he kept asking the same questions and acting like he knows everything because he watches videos and has made 0 effort to train that's why no one likes him here


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 19, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> No not at all when he first started on here everyone tried to help him but then he kept asking the same questions and acting like he knows everything because he watches videos and has made 0 effort to train that's why no one likes him here



hes better than me 

my questions are 100x worse. 
that one abt the kyokushin kata was cringeworthy.


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## Tez3 (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> critisizes martial arts? no offense to the op but if* u critisize it so much y even bother being on this forum?*
> 
> 
> 
> fair enough. ill try to use proper enligsh next time



This is what we have been asking ourselves lol!


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> hes better than me
> 
> my questions are 100x worse.
> that one abt the kyokushin kata was cringeworthy.


No he's not better than you because at least you train he doesn't he sits on his backside criticising and asking questions without bothering to do anything. It's not the questions that people don't like it's him not bothering to listen or even do anything


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> i ripped myself off if that make sense.. i dont pay attention in english.. or in any other subject for the matter.



Then it's time you did. Ignorance of this sort can be self-corrected.



senseiblackbelt said:


> and about the whole abbreviation thing..
> 
> can i please know the reason why were not allowed to use abbreviations... its hard not 2.
> i mean its hard not to.



No, it's not difficult. Not in the least. Firstly, what you're using are NOT abbreviations. They're slang at best and utter gibberish at worst. Using "Dr" instead of "Doctor" is an abbreviation. Using "2" because you're too lazy to write "to" and/or don't know the difference between "to", "two", and "too" is something else entirely.

This is an international forum, with members from many countries. Members for whom English is a second (or third...) language. Communicating under these circumstances can be challenging even when using real language. Replace actual words with gibberish and it becomes impossible.


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