# Muscle Memory Vs conscious thought



## TAZ (Oct 20, 2003)

I throw this post out there for general discussion as it came up in the pub after training tonight. How much of what we do is conscious thought when we move and how much is the body moving on its own... I relate the following as this caused the discussion point... two years ago I tore my ACL (anterior cruciate ligament ) in my right knee very badly. To regain any sort of stability I needed to have an operation to graft part of my patella tendon in place of th damaged ACL. Now this is the interesting part, in discussing with the surgeon the following came out...tje ACL has an inbuilt understanding of proprioception i.e. the controlled extension of the leg to prevent it from hyper extending during walking etc... when the graft is put in place the tendon does not have this 'memory' and therefore you have to  learn to walk again..training the tendon to mimic the ligaments ingrained understanding of propreiaception... also he told me that over time the actual physical makeup of the tendon will change and become more akin in its consistency to the original ligament.. effectively becoming a tendon/ligament hybrid. My own experience  seems to follow this pattern...my proprioception is now ok but the 6 months of physio rehab was needed  for my body to 'learn' how to walk/run again...

So this got me thinking about the question..how much of what e do is the body doing what it already knows how to do and how much is conscious effort...I have my views but I am very interested to hear others take on the subject...

(Larry if you happen past this post..your opinion would be greatly appreciated)

Regards

Dave


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## pknox (Oct 20, 2003)

I think it varies based on the skill level of the individual.  

I think that when someone is highly trained, it is possible to make some movements almost instinctual.  In that case, most moves would be "the body moving on its own", as opposed to requiring conscious thought.  The more someone has trained in specific patterns, the higher the probability that the moves become instinctual.

In an untrained individual, I think conscious thought is relied upon more often, and the confusion that results is what leads to less than optimal technique.

In a way, our goal as martial artists is to do enough thinking about action to no longer have to think, but instead just act.


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## Furtry (Oct 20, 2003)

Taz, if I understood correctly, this is a nature vs. nurture question.
imo, it's nature first then we screw it up by nurturing it


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## pknox (Oct 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Furtry _
> *Taz, if I understood correctly, this is a nature vs. nurture question.
> imo, it's nature first then we screw it up by nurturing it *



Excellent metaphor. By training for a long period of time, we eventually hope to advance past technique, and in a way, return to nature.


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## NYCRonin (Oct 20, 2003)

In Systema, actually; its the other way around (almost). We work on recapturing the 'natural'. 
Technique? Whats that? When you recapture natural movement and the bodys ability to protect itself - (original freedom at its most pure) - the techniques happen and take care of themselves.

Very much the opposite of mainstream MA's.


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## Brian King (Oct 20, 2003)

Please pardon the rambling. I am thinking or trying to about this as I key. I sit here at work waiting for traffic to ease so that I can get home. TAZ I thought this an easy question but am starting to come up with more and more complicated answers. So I thought I would just write down my thoughts as they came and then see if they made any sense later. Here it goes.

Most of my training is trying to forget technique and to just move. I move better when my mind and body are so tired that to think is just too much work! During a recent seminar (see Gleason Thread) the comment was made about the mind getting in the way. I know that when I am trying to demonstrate a certain idea it is more difficult to pull it off than if it happens without thought. While sparring my best moves always seem to happen by accident! If I think to much I am to slow to pull the trigger and seem to spend all the time waiting for the opportunity to arise so that I can pull off whatever technique I am thinking about or wishing for (as in waiting for my opponent to throw a certain move or react in a certain way) If I just let go of the insecurity and trust my body I get in all kinds of shots and even when I take some shots I am quicker to turn those to my advantage by just going with the flow rather than getting tied up and stuck in the thinking game.



> So this got me thinking about the question..how much of what e do is the body doing what it already knows how to do and how much is conscious effort



Conscious thought hmm. I dont kill everyone I workout with even though I am not thinking about the movement so there must be some conscious thought, or does the body automatically dial back? Does it require conscious thought to dial it up to a higher level? If I am on the ground and evading and I see a chance to pop up is it conscious thought that brings me up? While  popping up I dont think about how to place feet, how to place hips, I just get up. Same with going down to the ground. While training I work on certain movements by setting up drills, which will bring out those movements. The movements that I am bringing out dont so much require conscious thought but rather conscious effort to forget the way I have been moving for the last 40+ years and remember more the way I moved as a child.

Short answer is that I train not to teach my body how to react but train to have my body remember the way it was before I fell down and skinned my knee and started to fear the ground. I train to learn to trust my instincts. I train to learn how to fail and to no longer fear failure.

I guess that I am having a problem with the conscious part of the equation. How much is conscious and how much subconscious thought. I am having a problem separating the two. Larry, Arthur help!!

See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian

No reason to use these smilies I just found them and thought them amusing.

:flushed: :toilclaw: 

heheheh I love these (guess ya can tell I have to go clean a building later tonight) and yes I am easily amused!


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