# Uechi vs Kempo...My dilemma



## Steele (Jul 17, 2008)

Great Site!! 

I have an inner battle going on......I am a Uechi practitioner, with about 5 yrs of training in Uechi. I enjoy the style.

I have recently been exposed to American Kempo..I am taking a 12 week sparring/mma class at a local Kempo school.

The instructor is a Kempo 7th Dan. I always had a negative bias towards Kempo due to what my traditional Uechi instructors always told me. We are sparring against some Kempo practitioners in this class, these guys are good.

My impression has about Kempo has changed due to my participation in this class. 
So much so that I may take  up Kempo. I feel like I am cheating on my wife by looking at another style, but I must say Kempo looks to be a very practical style. 

Anybody else ever have this problem?


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## jkembry (Jul 17, 2008)

At my dojo we have a student that is almost the opposite.  He is a Black Belt in Okinawan Kenpo and had begun studying Uechi-ryu.  He is accepted and every now and then some Kenpo comes out.  You're right that these guys are good.  And, the lesson that I learned from him and all the others at my dojo is that all forms of MA have their place...for me I am enjoying Uechi-ryu and will keep at it.  It seems to fit my peronality, age and body style.


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## stickarts (Jul 17, 2008)

Steele said:


> Great Site!!
> 
> I have an inner battle going on......I am a Uechi practitioner, with about 5 yrs of training in Uechi. I enjoy the style.
> 
> ...


 
I have found it comes largely down to the teacher. If you find a good teacher in the style then you will benefit. There is nothing wrong with taking a look at what other styles have to offer and forming your own opinions. I expanded to two other styles but never left Kenpo, which is my base. I have learned lots from each style.


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## Jdokan (Jul 17, 2008)

Are you looking to do both?.....do both....I started in Uechi...moved to kenpo and now study Kali/Silat....Still do my kenpo and use some of my stances from Uechi.....


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## arnisador (Jul 17, 2008)

stickarts said:


> I have found it comes largely down to the teacher.



I imagine this is the difference here! It's about how it's trained and how that matches what a student wants. But if you find a good fit...excellent!


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## Steele (Jul 17, 2008)

Jdokan said:


> Are you looking to do both?.....do both....I started in Uechi...moved to kenpo and now study Kali/Silat....Still do my kenpo and use some of my stances from Uechi.....


Did you study both simultaneously? They are very different styles. I am finding just by observing the Kempo students that their system is much more fluid than Uechi, I find Uechi very linear, where Kempo seems to be fluid.

I just enjoy sparring and fighting with these guys. They are very good, I assume it comes from their base system. It was amazing the difference between who I spar with in our (Uechi) dojo compared with the Kempo students.
The other thing is we at the Uechi school do ZERO bag work, or contact work. Which is a little frustrating because you need to train like you fight. I understand kata, kumite, and bunkai have their place. But if you don't kick a bag on a regular basis ....how do you know you are going to be able to deliver a good kick/punch? Form is great, but the bag does not lie, you kick it or punch it...you know exactly where you stand.


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## Jdokan (Jul 17, 2008)

Steele said:


> Did you study both simultaneously?
> 
> The other thing is we at the Uechi school do ZERO bag work, or contact work. Which is a little frustrating because you need to train like you fight. I understand kata, kumite, and bunkai have their place. .


 
NO I studied Uechi for a year when I was 15/16....My instructor moved and in those days there was the proliferation of instructors as today...My Kenpo training came about 3 years later...
We did alot of bag & body work....Sounds more Instructional than style....
In this crazy sue happy world some Instructors minize their opportunity to get a lawsuit.....


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## arnisador (Jul 17, 2008)

Steele said:


> But if you don't kick a bag on a regular basis ....how do you know you are going to be able to deliver a good kick/punch?



Heh, with the Uechi toe-knuckle kick it might be just as well you don't kick a bag! But it sounds like the training methods at the other school better suit your expectations.


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## Josann (Jul 17, 2008)

You mentioned that the class is a 12 week sparring/mma class. I'd wonder if this class is fundamentally different than the regular kempo curriculum. If the emphasis is on sparring then it makes sense to cross train with them in sparring and mma at times and keep uechi as your base style. I am biased. I am a uechi godan with 18 years in that style.That being said, you have to go with what works for you. I know that around five years in any style you begin exploring other styles, wondering how you style compares, should I cross train etc. 

I've cross trained in aikido - which was not a good fit for me - and jujitsu which was. 

Find out what the regular kempo classes are like. If not exactly what you want then pay a mat fee and sparr with them 1-2 times per month. I enjoy sparring with my son who trains muy thai and mma. Lots of fun, occasionally humbling, but keeps my uechi fresh and interesting, at least for me. I no longer spar in the rigid uechi sanchin but have learned to maintain sanchin and move. I found out what works for me from my uechi and what does not.

Your karate is ultimately YOUR karate. You may get the best of both worlds or you may decide to switch styles. If you do switch, be sure not to second guess yourself and just do it.


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## Steele (Jul 18, 2008)

Josann said:


> You mentioned that the class is a 12 week sparring/mma class. I'd wonder if this class is fundamentally different than the regular kempo curriculum. If the emphasis is on sparring then it makes sense to cross train with them in sparring and mma at times and keep uechi as your base style. I am biased. I am a uechi godan with 18 years in that style.That being said, you have to go with what works for you. I know that around five years in any style you begin exploring other styles, wondering how you style compares, should I cross train etc.
> 
> I've cross trained in aikido - which was not a good fit for me - and jujitsu which was.
> 
> ...


I do enjoy Uechi quite a bit. I now find myself questioning the style practical applications, i.e will it save my a** in a street confrontation?
It seems Kempo is geared more towards these applications. Which is why it looks to me to be more practical.
Any thoughts on this?


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## arnisador (Jul 18, 2008)

I thought Uechi was quite practical, but again, it all depends on how you train it. Can you do both for a month or two? After the specialized MMA class you might find it different and decide you want a true MMA class instead. If this is a _specialized _class at their school, it sounds like it's not their regular training.


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## Josann (Jul 18, 2008)

I agree as well. It is how you train and especially how you learn the bunkai. I feel sparring and self defense ar different things. The more you spar the better you get at sparring. I think that can be accomplished by sparring as often as possible with whomever you can. When you begin to spar with the mma guys or the jujitsu guys you quickly learn how limited merely sparring can be in a drawn out stand up confrontation specially if you get taken down.

At around 6-8 years into uechi ryu I did a lot of sparring, competed, and felt good about it. It is natural at the shodan/nidan ranks to question yourself and many drop out at that time for whatever reasons. A few years later after watching a lot of mma I began to study some small circle jujitsu. I realized the practical applications of uechi, especially the grabing after many of the blocks, the close the distance attitude, and was pleased to learn that uechi is great as a standup system that is able to move into trapping and grappling range if needed. I've never trained in kenpo. but to me this makes uechi very practical. 

I also feel that having only 8 kata, as uechi does, makes the techniques more ingrained and automatic. I myself would shy away from a system that had too many kata.

Okinawan systems like uechi ryu, goju ryu,isshin ryu etc are often criticized for being too rigid and traditional. This is a gross misunderstanding of how to train. Karate to me is all basic, automatic techniques that you can utilize with out a lot of setup. Sparring is one part, admittedly a very fun part, of the curriculum. 

I admit I came to uechi in my 30's and if I was young, coming up today I'd probably have a go at mma. If you train mma you quickly will learn whether or not you can defend yourself. Mma is make or break but the confidence that that gives one is extremely powerful. I,unlike a lot of traditional martial arts people believe that mma is extremely practical in what it teaches. What I like about okinawan style karate is that it can be a lifetime study and part of a long term healthy lifestyle. You don't see a lot of 40+ guys in mma dojos.

I think it is good to question, maybe cross train and keep it all fresh. Again, these are my somewhat biased opinions. I believe that as long as you are training in something that you enjoy-uechi, kempo, mma, aikido etc - it's all good.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 19, 2008)

No contact in Uechi Ryu surprises me as I have seen videos of Uechi Ryu in Okinawa and its contact heavy especially training sanchin, using the makiwara and other tools.  Something tells me you are not getting all there is to be offered in the Uechi Ryu dojo you are in.


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## Steele (Jul 19, 2008)

Brandon Fisher said:


> No contact in Uechi Ryu surprises me as I have seen videos of Uechi Ryu in Okinawa and its contact heavy especially training sanchin, using the makiwara and other tools. Something tells me you are not getting all there is to be offered in the Uechi Ryu dojo you are in.


 
We do Sanchin testing, but not very often..once a month. we do kotikitae every class, but how hard you go depends on who you are working with. You don't want to start pounding a brand new student.

Kumite, once it is learned we try to go as hard and realistic as possible. We do ZERO bag work. No makiwara training, no specific self defense, just kata and kumite.

Sparring, we spar once maybe twice a month. I dont know what other schools do as far as sparring goes. I do understand sparring is a sport.

I do feel practicing on a bag or pads for kicks and punches let's a student know how effective and powerful these applications can be and whether they are doing them properly. Am I wrong in this assumption?


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## Josann (Jul 19, 2008)

Quote :  "I do feel practicing on a bag or pads for kicks and punches let's a student know how effective and powerful these applications can be and whether they are doing them properly. Am I wrong in this assumption? "

Absolutely not. But, I would prefer to do the bag-makiwara work outside of class time. A bag in your own basement or backyard is a great way to train when you can't get to the dojo. I like the idea of doing something every day as part of the training. Kata and bagwork are great ways to do that. I don't think that you can always fault the school as no school is going to do everything you want unless you are the sensei. You can even do kotikitae solo by useing a wooden dowel or small wooden bat for the arms and legs. Rolling out the shins with a rolling pin is another neat trick to maintain your conditioning. 

I'm curious as to where you train uechi and if your dojo is part of a larger association such as Okikukai. NAUKA, Kenykai etc.

A you tube search of what's out there in the uechi world is also good food fro thought, as is this site: http://uechi-ryu.com/m/


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## Steele (Jul 19, 2008)

Josann said:


> Quote : "I do feel practicing on a bag or pads for kicks and punches let's a student know how effective and powerful these applications can be and whether they are doing them properly. Am I wrong in this assumption? "
> 
> Absolutely not. But, I would prefer to do the bag-makiwara work outside of class time. A bag in your own basement or backyard is a great way to train when you can't get to the dojo. I like the idea of doing something every day as part of the training. Kata and bagwork are great ways to do that. I don't think that you can always fault the school as no school is going to do everything you want unless you are the sensei. You can even do kotikitae solo by useing a wooden dowel or small wooden bat for the arms and legs. Rolling out the shins with a rolling pin is another neat trick to maintain your conditioning.
> 
> ...


I am familiar with that web site. So are you?

I study under an Okikukai school listed on their website. I understand we can't do everything in class. 
I used to study at a school which is part of the Uechi Ryu Karate Assoc. The curriculum there was different. That was a Uechi school, The one I am at now is a Shoehei school. The reason I changed schools is that I moved.
I do train on my own, try to do at least one kata per day. Lift wieghts etc.
I enjoy the Sensei I have now, just different from what I was used to that's all.
All I know is that I enjoy Martial Arts and Uechi/Shohei want to continue training for quite a long time. 
The purpose of my post was just to see if other people think feel etc.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 19, 2008)

Bag and makiwara work is essential to building strong karate just as is kumite.  Koteaite is something that should be built up slowly I don't disagree with that but some contact is needed to build up the conditioning.


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