# Real Wing Chun Competitions



## geezer (Mar 7, 2010)

After reading a seemingly endless number of threads debating WC vs MMA, or bemoaning the lack of WC in MMA, or stating that WC is useless against MMA, or that WC is just too damn deadly for MMA, or that WC is really there, it just becomes _invisible_ when practiced in the ring along with MMA, or... (well you get the idea)... anyway, I've concluded that what WC (and WT,VT, etc.) really need is it's own full-contact competition format similar to what some other TMAs have managed to develop and promote. 

Personally, as I've said on other threads, I'd like to see full-contact bouts with some protective gear to allow for the most open and flexible rules possible, while maintaining a reasonable amount of safety. I'd like to see kicks and leg attacks, punches, elbows, grapples, sweeps and throws, and for the fighting to continue for at least 8 to 10 seconds on the ground after a throw before having to break. Something like this would really allow chunners to both pressure test and showcase their system at the same time, without it ending up looking exactly like an MMA bout. 

The question is could this ever come about with the limited number of WC schools and practitoners (all lineages), and with all the politics and jealosies between groups? It has been tried before without much success. But, if you _could_ successfully promote such competitions, would they benefit the Wing Chun style as a whole?


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## Nabakatsu (Mar 7, 2010)

Where do I sign up?!
Seriously though, that would be awesome. I think this type of thing would definitely assist and promote WT. Lat sau is awesome, chi sau is awesome. But it's not enough! too many rules and regulations, self expression of the wt system without too strict a format would be so damn nice!


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## geezer (Mar 7, 2010)

Nabakatsu said:


> Where do I sign up?!
> Seriously though, that would be awesome. I think this type of thing would definitely assist and promote WT...



I agree... but such competition would be best if open to other styles too. If someone can come in and kick some Chunner's butt using boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai or even Tai Chi... _good for them_. Anybody who's been around the block knows that there are guys out there who can use other stuff to get the job done. And if it happens that your 'Chun can't handle it, it's time to adapt and evolve! I mean, isn't that the whole point?


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## dosk3n (Mar 8, 2010)

I would love to be a part of setting somthing like this up and think it would be a great advancment in the style. I dont agree with letting other styles be able to compete also as thats more of a mixed art competition and they are already around. I think the idea going towards a WC only competiton but allowing any lineage to compete would be great.

You always hear people saying WC wouldnt work in a competition enviroment as its too dificult to award points for eg in other styles you get one hit, you get a point and you step off to start again. With WC there are alot of combos which is why this would not work.

What would work however would be judging system where you have say 3 judges set up to judge things like how much of what we saw was WC, How much controlling was used and who actually won. This way the rounds would last longer and they would be able to adapt the 8 seconds of fighting on the ground like you mentioned above.


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## Nabakatsu (Mar 8, 2010)

I like both ideas, maybe the first few days, purely wc, than let the top 5-10 guys fight in the all martial art comp the following days.. who knows.. both sound like a blast tho!


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## dosk3n (Mar 8, 2010)

Now does anyone know the first thing about setting this sort of thing up as I dont ha ha.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 8, 2010)

In the early to middle 1990's, there was an annual Kung Fu competition somewhere in the north east (don't rememebr the city or state), that actually had a division designated to Wing Chun.  There was actually forms and a chi sao competition just for Wing Chun practitioners.  They also had a push hands division for Tai Chi.  Not sure if the thing exists or is conducted anymore.  It's been years since I saw anything on it.  I knew some of the people who participated in the competitions.


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## chisauking (Mar 8, 2010)

I've always advocated chisau \ gwohsau in wing chun. However, I would just like to highlight a few points for people to consider.

1) Try to resist the temptation of sparring too early. Your wing chun tools has not embedded into your body\subconcious yet, so you are only using your own natral reactions.
2) The R.O.E.S set (rules, Objective, Environment, Stake) will influence your 'conclusion' of fighting.
For example, if you wear gloves, your understanding of how to hit for real will be limited. Because of the proctection offered by your gloves, you can hit how you like. However, in a real fight, if you hit someone's head or skull, you will most likely break your hands. Training without gloves will show you the best choice of tools and where to hit.
Try to wear your normal daily footwear for sparring. Without wearing shoes\boots for sparring, you are forming a misleading 'conclusion' of fighting. A lot of people think that it's easy to take people down, but that's only because without wearing shoes, your opponent can withstand your kicks to their face, and even if you could get through, in all probability your feet will get damaged by his hard skull. Personally, I always wear Dr Martin boots for sparring, since it's my daily footwear. When my opponent trys to go for my leg, I always stomp kick them in the face, or if they lead with their hand, I will whip kick their fingers.
Whether you beleive it or not, 'gearing up' will give you many false feedbacks.

3) Try to apply your wing chun 'tools' in your sparring. All too often, people spar -- but you won't see a single wing chun tool being used. If you can't apply your wing chun tools, concepts, principles, ask yourself why.
4) High intensity gwohsau is quite dangerous, so you must work on a progressive basis. Steadly increase your intensity & power in correlation to your increase in skill. Also, try not to go beyond the intensity & level that you can't control, and take your partner's level into consideration.
The Chinese has an old saying: 'prevention is better tha cure'. The 'model' of learning is designed to minimise the potential for injury -- that's why we don't put our students into sparring until they are ready. When I did western boxing, my coach put me in the ring for light sparring after 4-weeks. I don't see a problem in this, but one must acknowledge the greater potential, or greater risk, for injury with this 'model' of learning.
5) No matter how intensive your sparring, it still isn't fighting. Only a fool would delude themselves into thinking sparring = fighting. Fighting is such a personal thing, with so many variables, no matter how you spar, you still can't emulate true fighting. Therefore, one must be 'honest' with your sparring lessons. Don't think just because you can take your partner down in a nicely padded gym, with them not wearing shoes, you can do the same in reality. Try to replicate as faithfully as possible the R.O.E.S of reality. For example, you will NEVER meet an opponent on the street, wearing boxing gloves, with no shoes, so try to avoid training in this manner. Always, always try to work up to full intensity & pressure with chisau & gwohsau. So many schools that I've seen work at such low intensity, they would have problems with my mum! Being able to cope with 50% pressure means just that. It doesn't guarantee you can handle 60%, 70% 80%, 100% Ask yourself 'whether the techniques\tools that you are using in the gym would really work in REALITY (not just in a gym).

My ideas isn't very well articulated, but I think most of you would get the gist of what I'm trying to impart. 

Different lineage place geater emphasis on sparring, so try to look for WSL lineage schools if you can, because they tend to focus more on this front.

All that's left to do is for me to wish you guys 'happy bashing each other up!'


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 9, 2010)

As a note, I found Tiger Claw's Kung Fu Magazine Annual competition for June 12th, 2010. There is a division for Wing Chun . . . weapons form and chi sao. See the link for info:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/info/tournament/index.php

Looks like it will be in San Jose, California. If you're in the area, might be something to go see.


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## blindsage (Mar 9, 2010)

chisauking said:


> Try to wear your normal daily footwear for sparring. Without wearing shoes\boots for sparring, you are forming a misleading 'conclusion' of fighting. A lot of people think that it's easy to take people down, but that's only because without wearing shoes, your opponent can withstand your kicks to their face, and even if you could get through, in all probability your feet will get damaged by his hard skull.


There are knockouts from bare footed kicks to the head in competitions all the time. But yes adding shoes changes the dynamic.


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## bully (Mar 9, 2010)

I must say it does make you think.

70% of the time when I am out, pub etc I am wearing trainers/Kwons. (Too old to be dressed up for clubbing!!)

The other 30% I am in smart shoes, ie restaurant or something. Mainly when I am with my Mrs. These shoes would NOT be good for Wing Chun at all, may have to rethink and get docs like Chisauking as this would be a time when some scrot would probably have a go. Those smart shoes I wear aint even good for running either.

Good points guys.


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## chisauking (Mar 9, 2010)

Bully:

I kid you not when I'm telling people about Dr martin shoes\boots. 

I've been wearing docs now for over 20-years. I run in them, go out to restaurants in them, work in them, spar with them! In fact, I go through between 3- to 4-pairs of docs every year! I don't think anyone else can wear these footwear out so quick.

Ho, ho, ho, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought I was a rep for the company.

In fact, if you see all my photos on the net, or some of my clips, you will see that I'm telling the truth.


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## bully (Mar 9, 2010)

chisauking said:


> Bully:
> 
> I kid you not when I'm telling people about Dr martin shoes\boots.
> 
> ...




I can't disagree, that 2nd photo on Gary's site of the weekend I met you shows you wearing docs.

Hope your well and I hope i haven't gone off topic too much.


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## chisauking (Mar 9, 2010)

I don't think we have gone off topic, because Geezer's main contention is about sparring, and I think it's a valid point to highlight the fact that sparring can only be realistic if we try to emulate reality as much as possible, which means wearing our normal footwear in fighting.

Since I'm on this forum, I may as well expand a little on what Geezer said.

Geezer said: After reading a seemingly endless number of threads debating WC vs MMA, or bemoaning the lack of WC in MMA, or stating that WC is useless against MMA, or that WC is just too damn deadly for MMA, or that WC is really there, it just becomes _invisible_ when practiced in the ring along with MMA, or... (well you get the idea)... anyway, I've concluded that what WC (and WT,VT, etc.) really need is it's own full-contact competition format similar to what some other TMAs have managed to develop and promote. 

There are many points to cover here, so I will only address the main ones.
1) Sometimes, the truth may not be easy to accept.
2) I know many use the 'wing chun is too deadly' excuse, but for those that can truly apply wing chun, it is the truth. How's it possible for us to apply the tools which makes wing chun so effective given the constrints in a sporting context, without injuring our opponent?
3) For wing chun to work, one must be prepared to apply. For example, if someone tries to take you down, you can't respond in a half hearted way. You must respond with commitment & power in order to stop him.

It's not that good wing chun people don't want to spar more with people outside our practice, it's a question of how we can do it without totally rendering our tools completely useless & being fair to both parties.

If one tries to copy the MMA formulae, what will come out most is MMA methods & dynamics -- it has too, because as I've already stated many times, the environment & rules will determine the best tools to use, and the most efficient way to train. For example, by wrapping one's hands with large pillows, our effectiveness in using the yat-gee keun is as useful as a third hand condom, and then the best way to hit is in a boxing type manner. Wing chun punches relay on speed, precision, deep penetration with our end knuckles, atracking weak points of the body. Putting gloves on in wing chun is akin to putting a nib on a foil -- no matter how fast, accurate, sharp the point, it doesn't damage any more. So, what do we resort to? Answer:MMA \ boxing type of punches & exchange, using lots of power to try and knock out our opponent. We can no longer finish the job using a few punches, so now we have no choice but to exchange many blows with our opponent -- ala western boxing.

Can you see the pattern forming from training against the wing chun grain? We are no longer training \ honeing our wing chun punches any more; we have shift emphasis onto western boxing.

I know many people will disagree with me...but one only needs to see the 1000s of utube clips out there, which would verify my point. Can any body see wing chun punches applied during sparring when exponents are 'geared up'? Does it look like wing chun punches?

That's why I agree with Geezer that wing chun could do with its own gwohsau platform, where its own practitioners can put their skills to the test. However, I still think there would be huge problems to overcome. For example, many long term wing chun practitioners think wing chun should look like MMA in application, and in doing so, they adopt the same sort of sparring rules & environment. Then, you go back to square 1: how do we spar within MMA type of ROES set without totally rendering our tools completely useless & being fair to both parties? Because, now, we are sparring with MMA people who thinks they are doing wing chun.

I have nothing against MMA; I'm merely stating that one can't advance & develop one's wing chun skills by using the MMA way.


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## mook jong man (Mar 9, 2010)

chisauking said:


> I don't think we have gone off topic, because Geezer's main contention is about sparring, and I think it's a valid point to highlight the fact that sparring can only be realistic if we try to emulate reality as much as possible, which means wearing our normal footwear in fighting.
> 
> Since I'm on this forum, I may as well expand a little on what Geezer said.
> 
> ...


 
Mate you are spot on , there have been a few times when I have sparred friends with boxing gloves on and even wearing smaller bag type gloves and the alteration you had to make to your technique was ridiculous.

There is no problem with the circular type punches , but if they start throwing them down the centreline you have to open up your centreline so wide to try and deflect that you could drive a truck down there or even worse just lift your gloves up and use them as a shield.

 A lot of the time it was so irritating that we just took the gloves off and hit each others head gear with bare fists or palm strikes.

one of our main techniques against a straight punch is to use what we call a counter-pierce , which is a Tan Sau that intercepts on the out side of the opponents wrist , it deflects the punch and strikes through in one motion , hitting either the throat with the fingers or you can change it to a fist and hit the face.

Its next to impossible for you to intercept at the wrist and slide up the forearm when they have gloves on , so right off the bat you have already lost wrist control and leverage.

You can try and use a Pak Sau , but again you have to open up your centreline to intercept , and I prefer to use a Tan Sau because I consider there is a greater margin for error compared to the Pak Sau because of the larger coverage area of the forearm compared to the hand.

Also as you alluded to , the mechanics and the force of the punching is altered and seems to become more circular than linear in order to accommodate the size of the gloves.


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## blindsage (Mar 10, 2010)

Do you run into these same problems with MMA style gloves?


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## Nabakatsu (Mar 10, 2010)

I've found I am able to do chain punches with the gloves we use for applications and lat sau ect in class. they are small, but labeled as mma training gloves. I don't think "Real" mma gloves would be THATTT much bigger. Besides, the power doesn't come from the arm in my lineage, it comes from the footwork and body unison. 

The biggest problem I foresee is being able to get within the range I would want, everyone is looking to counterstrike or take you to the ground. HAVING to be the aggressor is the only thing I dislike. I've been playing around with tools as to how to fix this.. 
staying in IRAS and moving 1 foot at a time to shift around incoming "possible energy" keeps you relatively uncommitted, and whenever they get closes enough, you can execute a quick circle step and than use chasing steps to stay in, hopefully he isn't a "roid-ed out beast" but I spose that's the risk one takes when stepping into a ring.


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## geezer (Mar 10, 2010)

Nabakatsu said:


> ...I've been playing around with tools as to how to fix this..
> *staying in IRAS* and moving 1 foot at a time to shift around incoming "possible energy" keeps you relatively uncommitted...


 
Duh... _what's IRAS_? "Something... something... adduction stance"?  At least it sounds like you mean "Character-Two Adduction Stance" (aka Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma). I think EBMAS may be using updated terms I'm not familiar with. A little help please!


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## chisauking (Mar 10, 2010)

MJM sez: Also as you alluded to , the mechanics and the force of the punching is altered and seems to become more circular than linear in order to accommodate the size of the gloves. 

csk: Well, you are much more articulate than me on describing this point. 

They have to be more circular because 1) they have to circumvate round theor opponent's gloves 2) with head gear & gloves, the only way to make any significate impact is by 'throwing' all your body weight into the punch, sometimes at the expense of one's balance & mobility.

I would just like to expand on 1 more point regarding wing chun punching.

As I've said many times, your objectives will determine the best way to apply your tools. If your objective is to simply hit your opponent, or try to 'knock' him out, then one would apply the punch in 1 way. If your objective is to inflict maximum injury to your opponent, you must apply the punch in another way.

I will let the members think about this idea.


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## mook jong man (Mar 10, 2010)

blindsage said:


> Do you run into these same problems with MMA style gloves?


 
To be honest I haven't worn them , all my hard sparring years were before MMA gloves come out.

But I have tried various other things like weight training gloves etc , so yeah MMA gloves are small enough so that you could probably still use proper technique.

But with any sort of gloves on I felt that there was something missing , like I was a bit blind or something.
What was missing was the tactile sensory input from my hands , It was blunted somewhat .

I could move in and hit , but the finesse in close range trapping and wrist latching was gone because I couldn't feel much.
So I think bare hands for Wing Chun is best , maybe they just have to invent better head gear , preferably some that doesn't ruin your peripheral vision.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 15, 2010)

I used to do pretty much bare knuckle comps using wing chun techniques. 

I even did my last karate knockdown using wing chun footwork and movement

Wing chun is an extremely good art to learn and use for MMA

Yet as Ive said so many times, in MMA tournaments it is suicide to go in with just wing chun techniques

The reason competitions are not always great for realism are thus :-
Your opponent has tiem to study you before a match
There are usually gloves involved making it difficult not to use tension (try closing your fist with gloves on - you will inevitably tense yoru arms)
Your opponent will come from the other side of the ring/cage/mat, meaning he has an advantage to perform long range techniques (think TKD, MT, karate etc)
There is a lot of space in the rings/mats/cages to move around. In bar fights/streets, you will often be able to close your opponent to tight spaces where wing chun is much more effective

Those are just a couple of reasons. Obviously wing chun does still have use even with those hinderences, but you do need to have backup tools

Everyone always used to say BJJ was king in the ring and nothing could defeat it. If you look nowadays there are pretty much NO black belt BJJ guys fighting

I would love to see knockdown wing chun, or even a really good chi sao competition. Alan Orr tried to arrange this at SENI a few years back, but sadly it didnt really work and it came off as looking poor
I truly admire his effort to arrange it though (ie rather than discuss it, he just put it together and let it speak for itself)

And the end of the day, I will testify that wing chun does work. My friend was telling me the story of Stone Soup the other day which made me think of a lot of traditional arts that claim that the art works
Basically a tramp goes up to a house and knocks on the door. A woman answers and the tramp asks her for some water so that he can make stone soup. She cant believe that someone would make soup from a stone so duely gives him the water and watches

He puts the stone in the water and places it over the fire. He then sighs and says 'if only they had some tomatoes, it would make the stone soup taste phenomenal'. The woman, eager to make the stone soup work goes and grabs some tomatoes. Then the tramp states that the soup will be great, but would be even better with some chicken. She goes and grabs some chicken and the tramp puts it in. He then says that the soup just wouldnt be stone soup without some onions.....
It goes on until the soup contains numerous ingredients and basically cons the woman

That is what happens with a lot of styles - they add boxing, BJJ, escrima, judo etc to their art but still call it 'pure' 

In Kamon, whilst the foundation art is wing chun, we also get students into sparring with boxing gloves and get them doing clinchwork. Advanced level students are expected to be able to handle themselves on the floor, in a stand up clinch and in a long range spar. They can do this anyway they like, but the recoomended route is to use other styles. So the art is not exactly wing chun anymore. It is wing chun with all that other experience. Yet when I see other schools do this they shout to the heavens that they are pure wing chun etc and that pure wing chun will work. Sometimes you have to let go and realise that whatever works is the best thing to do!!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 15, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> In Kamon, whilst the foundation art is wing chun, we also get students into sparring with boxing gloves and get them doing clinchwork. Advanced level students are expected to be able to handle themselves on the floor, in a stand up clinch and in a long range spar. They can do this anyway they like, but the recoomended route is to use other styles. So the art is not exactly wing chun anymore. It is wing chun with all that other experience. Yet when I see other schools do this they shout to the heavens that they are pure wing chun etc and that pure wing chun will work. Sometimes you have to let go and realise that whatever works is the best thing to do!!


 
I am going to get myself into trouble here and likely should just stop typing and hit the back button and forget I ever saw this thread. 

First, nice to see you are back posting Kamon and this response is not actually directed at you but it does point out something I have felt about Wing Chun for quite sometime now that is not such a good thing for Wing Chun IMO.

This bit actually is what I am talking about



Kamon Guy said:


> They can do this anyway they like, but the recoomended route is to use other styles.


 
I trained Wing Chun Briefly and I do honestly believe it works but the problem I see with a lot of Wing Chun today is what I have called...and this is where I am going to get into trouble.....what I have called the cult of Wing Chun (there is a similar Cult of Taiji by the way but they are much less likely to survive a fight unlike those in Wing Chun that I do believe would have a fighting chance).

Wing Chun tends to train "ONLY" with Wing Chun and they can get very good within the world of Wing Chun but throw in something outside of Wing Chun and they can get rather confused rather quickly due to the complete lack of training outside of Wing Chun. Now I am not saying Wing Chun is the only style that does this, a lot of styles get into their own little cult type of thinking. The "my style is best" kind of thing so why should I waste my time training with someone else. 

My last walk down the Wing Chun path put a spot light on this. I have for years trained Taijiquan and I have also trained Sanda and Xingyiquan, not as long as Taiji but longer than Wing Chun. No matter how hard I tried during the training of applications I could not stop my defenses from being Taiji and my attacks (90%) of them were Xingyiquan. The defense part got frustrating because I was trying to work on Wing Chun but the attack bits is where I found this issue. Absolutely no one in class could defend against any Xingyiquan attacks. They were something that they had not seen before and were completely befuddled. Until they finally asked the Sifu how to defend against this. 

I am no great master and at best in things Xingyi a beginner and my Wing Chun Sifu, who is in my opinion highly skilled and well trained (student of Ip Ching) could only stop me. We were at a stalemate. I had options in my head as to what to do and I am sure if I tried he had responses but there we stood locked and no where to go. 

He had never dealt with this type of attack either since all he had trained over the years was Wing Chun with Wing Chun people. I later apologized for my lack of ability to break out of my prior training habits and decided I should just stop trying to train Wing Chun. This is not because I saw any lack in Wing Chun however. I did however see a long long time and a whole lot of work to break out of my prior training ad I simply did not want to do that at this stage of the game. 

Also I still do very much like Wing Chun and I still do feel it is very effective. But I do not think a competition made just for Wing Chun people would help Wing Chun. I do believe that if those that were trained in Wing Chun would get into a bit of cross style sparing that would help wing Chun (or any style) immensely, if for no other reason than giving a Wing Chun person exposure to other attacks and other defenses and learning how to deal with them.

And before the beatings begin I would also like to say I have always felt a combination of Wing Chun and Judo would be a damn devastating combination in regular old fighting and in MMA competitions. 

OK now to see if I am brave enough to click the "Submit Reply" button


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## wushuguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I agree with Xue,

In part most any people will become "narrow minded" if their career of WC is limited to only vs WC and only against WC in their own school. This is not limited to WC, but in any art.

As martial artists, if we want to grow and improve our art, it isn't that we find the lackings in our style, but the lacking of understanding how to apply the principles and adapt to other situations.

If have the chance to hang out with martial artists from other styles, then it give one a chance to test the principles against something one isn't comfortable with. if need be, adapt, change something, etc. I think if one is good at putting the WC principles into use, then when faced with unknown situations, we can quickly grasp the mechanics of it and learn to incorporate that into our own movements. grappling with those principles in mind, it might not look like bjj, but look like some very interestingly applied wc.

that said, when i was studying WC, we had made kind of a fight club in our neighborhood, where the rules were fairly limited but safety still key, that gives people of all kinds of disciplines a chance to have a go and test their skills against other arts, as well as to grow. in this friendly competition setting we also did group fights, like 1 against 2,3,4,5. the 1 usually lost, but against group odds we measured our progress at how long it took to lose or how many of the group we can defeat before losing or giving up.


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## chisauking (Mar 15, 2010)

You know, I love it when people challenge wing chun & its principles. It's what makes us grow. It makes us question the validity & effectiveness of this wonderful art...

However, if people were only a little 'truthful' in their 'conclusion' or how they arrive at their conclusion.

99.9% of all people that state wing chun isn't effective, it isn't complete, it lacks ground work, it needs western boxing, it needs BJJ, it needs AK47, (put what you think wing chun lacks here.............), didn't 'test' wing chun in the environment in which it was intended for; they tend to be people with only a superficial level of wing chun comprehension, people who'd probably learnt from a 13th or 14th generation wing chun coach.

In most cases, it tend to be people who's totally 'brainwashed' by tv programs, so they chop & change wing chun so much in order to 'test' wing chun in an environment & context in which wing chun was never meant to be used. 

I would like to ask all the members who believe wing chun to be lacking in some way, how did you arrive at your 'concluson'? Did you have sufficient wing chun skills at the time of testing? Did you learn from a reputable teacher with actual combat experience? Were you 100% committed in applying wing chun, and were willing to do whatever it takes? Was the 'test' conducted under realistic conditions under combat rules?


xue sheng sez:I trained Wing Chun Briefly and I do honestly believe it works but the problem I see with a lot of Wing Chun today is what I have called...and this is where I am going to get into trouble.....what I have called the cult of Wing Chun (there is a similar Cult of Taiji by the way but they are much less likely to survive a fight unlike those in Wing Chun that I do believe would have a fighting chance).

Two points I would like to address:

1) Wing chun is such a high level & profund art, it takes quite a lot of experience & time before one can truly comprehend & apply its tools. All too often, people with very little experience & actual time training with a good teacher, tend to make all sorts of silly statements.

2) The cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun people. In fact, many, many intelligent MMA people act in the same manner. They believe that the 'ring' is the gospel truth, and ALL fighting methods should be measured by its success in this way. They laugh at other people because their training model doesn't fit in line with the MMA model of training. They cite how unrealistic chisau training is, whilst training without shoes, wearing gloves, helmets, in a nicely padded ring, with a referee to stop the fight once someone taps out (as though this is in any way what happends in reality). They don't beleive a word of what people tells them, despite those people having many actual combat experiences.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> 1) Wing chun is such a high level & profund art, it takes quite a lot of experience & time before one can truly comprehend & apply its tools. All too often, people with very little experience & actual time training with a good teacher, tend to make all sorts of silly statements.


 
The Sifu I trained with was highly skilled and well trained and had a good lineage and was an inside student and yadda yadda yadda whatever....

I do not doubt Wing Chun works and works well. However if all you ever do is test yourself against Wing Chun people and absolutely no one else you are going to have problems. He (my Sifu) could not figure out how to effectively defeat my Xingyiquan, he could only stop it. And that is not due to anything lacking in Wing Chun or his Wing Chun skill. It is because all he ever trained against was Wing Chun. If he and I or he and anyone else worked together using a style other than Wing Chun I have no doubt he would figure out, rather quickly, how to defeat it using Wing Chun (no other style added). But only seeing Wing Chun and only expecting Wing Chun you can end up with this deer in the headlights kind of thing when someone trained in another style uses said style against Wing Chun.



chisauking said:


> 2) The cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun people. In fact, many, many intelligent MMA people act in the same manner. They believe that the 'ring' is the gospel truth, and ALL fighting methods should be measured by its success in this way. They laugh at other people because their training model doesn't fit in line with the MMA model of training. They cite how unrealistic chisau training is, whilst training without shoes, wearing gloves, helmets, in a nicely padded ring, with a referee to stop the fight once someone taps out (as though this is in any way what happends in reality). They don't beleive a word of what people tells them, despite those people having many actual combat experiences.


 
I think I said that already... that it was not exclusive to Wing Chun.... see 



Xue Sheng said:


> ....the cult of Wing Chun (there is a similar Cult of Taiji by the way but they are much less likely to survive a fight unlike those in Wing Chun that I do believe would have a fighting chance)....
> 
> ....Now I am not saying Wing Chun is the only style that does this, a lot of styles get into their own little cult type of thinking. The "my style is best" kind of thing so why should I waste my time training with someone else.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 16, 2010)

A complex thread involving several different issues. Rather than making a long winded post- some opinions:

1. Wing chun is not about usinga fixed set of techniques- it's about training the wing chun person using key wing chun principle.

2 A wing chun person should be able to adapt to using gloves if gloves are used in a match. Working on devloping what is called short power IMO is the key.

3.Nothing wrong in working with wing chun against other styles.Developing experience doing it is the important thing. The key problem in using wing chun is that many people that I see have mot learned wing chun 101 well-the stance, the turns, the footwork, the horizontal and vertical positioning and developing timing.


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## chisauking (Mar 16, 2010)

xue sez: The Sifu I trained with was highly skilled and well trained and had a good lineage and was an inside student and yadda yadda yadda whatever....

csk: May I ask who your sifu was? I know sifu Yip ching's method very well, so in all probability I would know your sifu.

I do not doubt Wing Chun works and works well. However if all you ever do is test yourself against Wing Chun people and absolutely no one else you are going to have problems. He (my Sifu) could not figure out how to effectively defeat my Xingyiquan, he could only stop it. And that is not due to anything lacking in Wing Chun or his Wing Chun skill. It is because all he ever trained against was Wing Chun. If he and I or he and anyone else worked together using a style other than Wing Chun I have no doubt he would figure out, rather quickly, how to defeat it using Wing Chun (no other style added). But only seeing Wing Chun and only expecting Wing Chun you can end up with this deer in the headlights kind of thing when someone trained in another style uses said style against Wing Chun.

csk: This is a very common presumption. ALL good wing chun practitioners would have a good understanding of the working \ mechanics of movements & would have experiences with different styles. One does not need to have fought \ sparred with every system under the sun in order to be able to counter it. There are only so many ways people can enter your defence, and as long as you understand those permutations of attacks, you would have your lines covered.
I would like to ask you a simple question: Have you ever sparred or fought with an African tribesman? No? Then, does that mean you have NO answers to his method of attack?
If you can think on a higher level, wing chun works regardless of one's path of entry. Thinking of styles vs styles is low level thinking and is extremely limited.

Lastly, I know you'd said the cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun practitioners, but I wanted to make clear that this 'mentality' isn't exclusive to traditional ways of training. It also applies to people who mix martial arts, but I never see any such claims directed at them.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> xue sez: The Sifu I trained with was highly skilled and well trained and had a good lineage and was an inside student and yadda yadda yadda whatever....
> 
> csk: May I ask who your sifu was? I know sifu Yip ching's method very well, so in all probability I would know your sifu.
> 
> ...


 
Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?

Do you currently train only Wing Chun and if so do you ever spar anyone form another style?



chisauking said:


> Lastly, I know you'd said the cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun practitioners, but I wanted to make clear that this 'mentality' isn't exclusive to traditional ways of training. It also applies to people who mix martial arts, but I never see any such claims directed at them.


 
I don't see a cult attitude around "real" MMA competitors as much, although it does exist. Most of the time they are to busy training and looking for ways to win. However there is most definitely a MMA cult, a rather LOUD one, around the edges


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 16, 2010)

Xue - you raise a good point and one that is extremely valid. There are a lot of cult wing chunners who believe that wing chun will save them in every scenario.

You also get people defending wing chun too much. Every style has its problems. I recently had an altercation with three guys where I used only wing chun and it was extremely effective. Yet I have also experienced altercatins where I have been taken to the floor, or pressed up against the hood of a car. Wing chun struggles in these environments. 

I love it when people reply to that with a snobby comment such as - 'well, you obviously havent done enough wing chun' etc. That's nonsense. I have never seen a Sifu with better knowledge of wing chun than Kevin Chan and he says to use what works. Sure if you can fight using wing chun on the floor then great, although it rarely works. 

At the moment there is no fighter in the UFC, Pride etc that uses just one art. Some will have a core/foundation art, but they will have trained other techniques as well. Those chunners who want to remain pure (often from the school of William Cheung or Leung Ting) are very misguided. If you are just looking to learn an art, then great, but to develop as a martial artist you need to eveolve your art and experience all different types of training


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## wushuguy (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> Lastly, I know you'd said the cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun practitioners, but I wanted to make clear that this 'mentality' isn't exclusive to traditional ways of training. It also applies to people who mix martial arts, but I never see any such claims directed at them.


 i think that's because most traditional martial artists don't really care much about mma or take it seriously. mma is entertaining, and many do have a cult like thought, thinking mma is the best thing since peanut butter and jelly.

while having wing chun competitions might make some headway into the entertainment spotlight, i think if we keep doing martial arts with the self-defense attitude, there's no real need for competition, but  it doesn't hurt to try out our skills against practitioners of other arts. it helps us to learn our own even better.


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## chisauking (Mar 16, 2010)

wusuguy sez: while having wing chun competitions might make some headway into the entertainment spotlight, i think if we keep doing martial arts with the self-defense attitude, there's no real need for competition, but it doesn't hurt to try out our skills against practitioners of other arts. it helps us to learn our own even better. 

csk: And this is my main point of contention, wushuguy. As I have already said, I'm all for sparring & testing with other styles, but how do we do it with mean is the question.

In my experience, I have found that unless you are committed, wing chun seldom works against agressive people from other styles, that's intent on getting through. For example, one of my friends that I've sparred with is a Thai boxer. Pound for pound, I've never met anyone that's as strong as him, and when he punches a pad, you can hear a loud crack around the room. During our sparring, I can stop all his attacks....I can ALWAYS kick his knee or gwai-garn him in the face, however, because we are friends, I don;t really want to hurt him, so I only use a small % of my power. Now, here's the problem. Because I don't 'finish' him, he always continue & hits me despit my stopping after I'd countered him easily, and it usually ends with an 'exchange of blows'. I know in my heart that if I were to use full power, he will go down. So, what do you do? Use partial power, and your opponent WILL get through. Use full power, and someone will end up in hospital. In fact, the last time we'd sparred, I got fed up with him continuing after I'd yet again stopped my attack, so I'd upped my power to the next level. I dropped him with a simple palm. Result? I've never seen him since. Believe it or not, I've lost quite a few friends in the past because I'd put them on the floor from chisauing.

Another good example is all those clips that you see of people being taken down. You see the guy trying to take his opponent down is 100% intent on acheiving his objective, whilst the other guy is playing the part of the wing chun mannequin, standing there just like a dummy, without attemting to resist the slightest.

All in all, I'm not saying wing chun is invincible, or trying to discredit other approaches. However, what I'm trying to convey is for anyone to judge or conclude whether a method is effective or not, they must use that method in the way & environment that it was meant to be use. They must be 'truthful' in their 'test'. One must use the punch in the way it was meant to be use; one must use the kicks with conviction, ready to inflict damage.

Take the example of taking a racing car for a test drive. If you test drive that car in a muddy field, how accurate would your assessment of that car's effectiveness be? 

I hope all the people on this forum don't beleive a word I say. All you have to do is be truthful with yourself. Go and gwohsau without proctection, using heavy footwear, and you will find out whether the dynamics changes. Add conviction and intent, using the tools as it was meant to be used, and you will see for yourself the results.

But, be warned, injuries WILL occur and you might lose a few friends\sparring partners in the process.


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## chisauking (Mar 16, 2010)

sue shung sez: Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?

Do you currently train only Wing Chun and if so do you ever spar anyone form another style?


csk: Yes, when I was in my teens, I'd trained in western boxing. I think my coach was Mr Bankcroft, teaching at Worcester's boxing club. I gave up because I didn't like hurting\punishing my opponents.
I also took up Lau Gar kuen.

Although I love all martial arts, I only train exclusively in wing chun now, simply because that's the ONLY way for ME to reach my personal best in this wonderful method.
I've sparred with many people from different styles, as well as many people from different wing chun branches. I love to gwohsau with people, but I never do so in a 'ring' context, because in MY experience, wing chun doesn't work in this context and it will only end in an exchange of blows, which does nothing for the development of wing chun skills.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> sue shung sez: Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?
> 
> Do you currently train only Wing Chun and if so do you ever spar anyone form another style?
> 
> ...


 
Well I am not sure if this post is for me or not since I am not sue shung but&#8230;.

Also I will apologize in advance but your responses in the script notation of &#8220;&#8221;xxx sez&#8221; is driving me nuts

Thank you and I was not talking about the ring, I was talking about training with other styles. And the fact that you do is a good thing. But my original point was that, although I know Wing Chun is effective, it is the propensity of some Wing Chun people to train only Wing Chun (which is fine) and train only with other Wing Chun people (which is OK too) and refuse to train with other styles because they feel Wing Chun is so good it would be a waste of time. But it is that "training with only Wing Chun people&#8221; bit that can eventually hurt them. Or at the least shock them when what they have trained doesn&#8217;t work against another style. And this is not a lack in the style it is a lack in the training. They have trained and trained to respond against attack A, B or C with response A, B or C but when attack D hits them they are lost.

But then, as I said before, not only fond in Wing Chun. It is just that I tended to run into it there more often.
.


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## chisauking (Mar 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng sez: Also I will apologize in advance but your responses in the script notation of xxx sez is driving me nuts

csk: Well, it does help if I can read properly, lol.

In regards training exclusively with a select group of people, I'm afraid you get that with many people. They are too afraid to chisau outside of their own class, let alone spar with outside people.

I don't know why this is so, but I guess it's an ego thing. Once you 'cross hands' with other people, your skills will be revealed, so, in order to hid their level, they don't spar outside of class.

Strangely, once someone reach sifu\teacher level, they are even more reluctant to train in public.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> Xue Sheng sez: Also I will apologize in advance but your responses in the script notation of xxx sez is driving me nuts
> 
> csk: Well, it does help if I can read properly, lol.
> 
> ...


 
If it is any consolation, many Taiji people are much worse and considerably more delusional 


And before attacked from the Taiji side of MT I have been training taiji for over 18 years now


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2010)

_Originally Posted by chisauking: "*sue shung* sez: Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?"_

A boy named Sue!? LOL. OK, now that's pretty silly! LOL

But seriously now, for those of us who don't know a lick of Chinese (Cantonese or Mandarin) and were brought up in the pre-Pinyin era of "Wade-Giles" (sp?) romanization, _How do_ you pronounce "Xue Sheng"? I always assumed it was something like "Shway"... and what does it mean?



Xue Sheng said:


> I was talking about training with other styles. And the fact that you do is a good thing. But my original point was that, although I know Wing Chun is effective, it is the propensity of some Wing Chun people to train only Wing Chun (which is fine) and train only with other Wing Chun people (which is OK too) and refuse to train with other styles because they feel Wing Chun is so good it would be a waste of time...



I gotta side with Xue (however the heck you say it) on this one. I really enjoy training WC, but you've got to take the blinders off. At the risk of being trite, consider that well known quote from Sun Tzu dating back perhaps 2,500 years: 

_"If you know your enemy and yourself, you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy or yourself, you will succumb in every battle..."_


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

geezer said:


> _Originally Posted by chisauking: "*sue shung* sez: Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?"_
> 
> A boy named Sue!? LOL. OK, now that's pretty silly! LOL
> 
> ...


 
My name is 'Sue'! How do you do 

Well it is spelled Xue Sheng but it is pronounced Throat-Warbler Mangrove 

Xue = Shway
Sheng - Shung
meaning = student



geezer said:


> _"If you know your enemy and yourself, you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy or yourself, you will succumb in every battle..."_


 
Exactly.. and oh so many in MA today do not understand this at all


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## chisauking (Mar 16, 2010)

_"If you know your enemy and yourself, you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy or yourself, you will succumb in every battle..."_ 

It's all in the CONTEXT. Or, in other words, the ability to comprehend what's actually being said.

To me, knowing how to stop my opponent entering my door is enough, I don't need to learn the zillions of permutations once he's inside.

And, that's the biggest problem with the people who's concerned with style vs style. Just in China alone, there are 100s if not 1000's of different styles. How do one even begin to learn all the possible methods? How do we enter the minds of our opponents? How do you know all your potential enemies?

Learn to close your door, my friend.


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> Learn to close your door...



Curious, my wife said the same thing to me this morning when I was on the can.


As far as learning about the enemy, I think we all agree that it's not only unwise, but impossible to try to learn specific defenses for every possible attack you might conceivably receive. But it's reasonable to consider how to respond to the general strategies and energies you will encounter, and to use an eskrima term, the "angles" from which common attacks may come. If most attackers are likely to have had experience with such things as wrestling/grappling, boxing, muay thai, or even a football player's/rugger's sort of tackling and brawling, then it makes sense (to me at least) to address these things in your training.


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## chisauking (Mar 16, 2010)

wrestling/grappling, boxing, muay thai, or even a football player's/rugger's sort of tackling and brawling, then it makes sense (to me at least) to address these things in your training. .......

Not to mention Mogolian boxing, Pakistani wrestling, ancient monkey boxing, turkish grappling, East end's head butting, korean boxing, dragon & phonix fist, lightning thunder foot, pan nam wing chun, veitnamese ving tsun, bing tsun, ling tsun, Chinese jade sword, jail fighting, mind & mental fighting, Shanghai water fighting, ping pong double fist, american football takedowns, basketball boxing, grass fighting, English pub brawling, Kurdish ninja rambling, etc., etc,



Good luck on your journey!


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## Xinglu (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> And, that's the biggest problem with the people who's concerned with style vs style. Just in China alone, there are 100s if not 1000's of different styles. How do one even begin to learn all the possible methods? How do we enter the minds of our opponents? How do you know all your potential enemies?
> 
> Learn to close your door, my friend.



I'm concerned that this can lead to a slippery slope eventually leading to, "it is pointless to train with people who practice other arts."  Your gongfu can only increase, by continually testing and developing.  This can only happen so much  by training only with other practitioners of your own art.  If I'm not mistaken, Yongchun means "eternal spring."  Which implies that it is always growing.  How is that growth going to happen without testing your strategies and tactics against those who are not familiar with them (and you are not familiar with theirs).  That is a true measure as to how much you are "growing" and in what areas you still need to grow.

It is not about learning every possible defense, it is about experience.  And the best way to experience your own art IS to pressure test it against something unfamiliar.

Furthermore, going with the door analogy: a shut and locked door will only keep an honest man honest.  Security is an illusion, nothing more then a pacifier.


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## chisauking (Mar 16, 2010)

xinglu: It is not about learning every possible defense, it is about experience. And the best way to experience your own art IS to pressure test it against something unfamiliar.

csk: So, are you familiar with every single fighting method in the world? Have you tested yourself against choi lay fut, heung keun, pak mei, tong long, cheung keun, mok gar, kee kar? If not, how do you become familiar? Again, can't you see the flaw in your statement, to 'pressure test' against something unfamiliar? How long do you expect to live?

Furthermore, going with the door analogy: a shut and locked door will only keep an honest man honest. Security is an illusion, nothing more then a pacifier. 

csk: I don't think you understood my 'door' analogy. A 'door' is a way in which your opponent can attack you, and there are only so many 'doors' in which he can enter by. Learn to 'close' those doors, and you will minimise the possible permutations of attacks.

No matter what styles\methods your opponents choose to use, they can only enter through those finite amount of doors, because there are only so many ways people can attack you by.

You can think of it in another way. If you want to stop people from getting into London, it's better to stop them from entering the UK in the first place. If you try to stop them once they are in the country, it's next to impossible because there are zillions of roads leading to London, so it's impossible to close all the possible permutations of entry.

It's no different in combat. Prevent your opponent from penetrating your defence, and you have minimise their options. Once they have pass your defence, they will have considerably more options.

Depending on one's actual combat experiences, one will either see those permutations of attacks -- or doors -- or they won't.

Oh, well, this real wing chun competitions thread is done for me. You people carry on enjoying yourself. No point being a forum parrot.


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## Xinglu (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> So, are you familiar with every single fighting method in the world? Have you tested yourself against choi lay fut, heung keun, pak mei, tong long, cheung keun, mok gar, kee kar? If not, how do you become familiar? Again, can't you see the flaw in your statement, to 'pressure test' against something unfamiliar?



Do you want an answer to this?  I'll go with the assumption that you do:

Of those you named:
CLF: yes
Pak Mei: yes

Plus many more that you didn't name.  And as I meet new practitioners and encounter new styles, I will hopefully be able to train with them and learn and grow. Don't you do this?  If not, why?



chisauking said:


> How long do you expect to live?


 Once again, I'll assume you were being genuinely curious and not just an ***.

I never expected to make it past 25, now here I am every year a gift.  I don't really care, I have already greatly surpassed my best hopes and expectations for longevity in life.  If I live to bee 100 I will still be attempting to grow as a martial artist, training, and refining. Why should I stop because of age?


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## Xinglu (Mar 16, 2010)

chisauking said:


> I don't think you understood my 'door' analogy. A 'door' is a way in which your opponent can attack you, and there are only so many 'doors' in which he can enter by. Learn to 'close' those doors, and you will minimise the possible permutations of attacks.
> 
> No matter what styles\methods your opponents choose to use, they can only enter through those finite amount of doors, because there are only so many ways people can attack you by.
> 
> ...



Hmmm I do like the analogy, you're right, I didn't understand what you were saying. 

I bolded a part that I feel is of importance, experience. Without it, you don't grow, and this is why pressure testing is important.  I seems that we actually agree on this point after all.


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2010)

I really don't see how this conversation devolved into another argument, especially when everybody was making pretty good sense for a while. Basically, what I was getting from all this was:

CSK: If you apply good WC principles, you should be able to handle whatever comes. _(sounds good to me)_

Xue and Xinglu: Yes, but it is also useful to train yourself against what the other guy is likely to do. _(yup, that makes sense too)_

My 2 Cents: CSK has a point, you can't train against everything, but you can pressure test yourself against the _most common_ other approaches... to see if you can hold it together when you encounter the unexpected. If you keep your wits (and your WC) about you,  then you should be able to handle it. And, if you test your WC and find it works, you will be so much more confident. If it doesn't work, then you know you what you need to train. 

...Besides, testing yourself against different approaches is _fun. _ Now what were you guys arguing about again?


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## Xinglu (Mar 17, 2010)

geezer said:


> I really don't see how this conversation devolved into another argument, especially when everybody was making pretty good sense for a while. Basically, what I was getting from all this was:
> 
> CSK: If you apply good WC principles, you should be able to handle whatever comes. _(sounds good to me)_
> 
> ...



You summed it up nicely me thinks.

Yes, it IS fun!

The only person talking about training against every thing is CSK, and I assume that it comes from a misunderstanding of what was being said. I take the opportunity to train with anyone who has the time for me.  It is good for me.  Every time I have heard it was good for them.  We all have a lot of fun and learn a lot from each other, and often continue to do it when we have the extra time.


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## chisauking (Mar 17, 2010)

I think it's important for me to state that I don't argue with people. Sometimes it may seem that way due to my style of writing, and how I try to convey my ideas, but if they were next to me as I type, they would see that I'm cool as a cucumber & generally smirking as I write.

Of all people, I probably understand the most that we don't all share the same thinking, simply because we all haven't travelled along the same path of life.

As I'd stated, I choose not to continue with this thread simply because I've put all my points across already, and I would only be repeating myself if I continued.

In any case, it's healthy that we challenge other people's ideas. After all, a forum would be extremely boring if we all agreed with each other, and slapped each other on the back after every response.

Until someone comes up with a format in which we all can spar in relative fairness, irrespective of style\method, I think I will just stick with chisau\gwohsau -- but that's another topic matter.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 17, 2010)

chisauking said:


> I think it's important for me to state that I don't argue with people. Sometimes it may seem that way due to my style of writing, and how I try to convey my ideas, but if they were next to me as I type, they would see that I'm cool as a cucumber & generally smirking as I write.
> 
> Of all people, I probably understand the most that we don't all share the same thinking, simply because we all haven't travelled along the same path of life.
> 
> ...


 
It took me a few posts... and getting past the "sez" stuff and being called sue but I got it  

And it truly was much appreciated; I do believe we are in agreement and thank you :asian:


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## Xinglu (Mar 17, 2010)

chisauking said:


> I think it's important for me to state that I don't argue with people. Sometimes it may seem that way due to my style of writing, and how I try to convey my ideas, but if they were next to me as I type, they would see that I'm cool as a cucumber & generally smirking as I write.
> 
> Of all people, I probably understand the most that we don't all share the same thinking, simply because we all haven't travelled along the same path of life.
> 
> ...



I certainly hope you argue!  

Argument:
Noun: 1. a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true; "it was a strong argument that his hypothesis was true"
2. a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal; "the argument over foreign aid goes on and on"

Argumentation: 
a course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating a truth or falsehood; the methodical process of logical reasoning; "I can't follow your line of reasoning"

too often people replace the words fighting and bickering with arguing. Which has led to the unfortunate vilifying of the term "argument".



chisauking said:


> Until someone comes up with a format in which we all can *spar in relative fairness, irrespective of style\method*, I think I will just stick with chisau\gwohsau -- but that's another topic matter.



I think this is quite to topic - Isn't this (the bolded part) what the MMA format is?  Now take that format and hold a WC competition, then the last day, have it be either open to all forms of CMA (which I think would be the most intriguing show case), or open to all forms of MA.  That way, the showcase is WC.  Those who only want to compete against other WC practitioners can do so.  And those who want to test it against other CMA, can.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 22, 2010)

Hahaha we are arguing about arguing!!! Arguing is productive because it is passionate debate. Everyone has ideas to offer and arguments allow people to see all the points raised more clearly

Its human nature to argue and as long as it isnt done in an aggressive way its fine

I think a lot of people really want to see wing chun represented in competition formate but the point is that it could never happen. Why? Simply because those that stick to 'pure' wing chun will find using a streetfighting art in a purely competitive format very difficult. Those that 'adapt' the wing chun to work in a more MMA style environment would be accused of not using wing chun!! 

I had this problem when I did my competitions - a lot of people couldnt identify the wing chun until they had another look at the videos

My advice to you guys is to try your art in various different formats - play with it and figure out ways of changing your art to adapt to the situation. I love playing with ideas such as 'how would I deal with using wing chun on a bus' or if I was dragged into a river etc. Weird thoughts but it gives you something to play with. I know that some people obsess too much by certain things (ie they want definitive answers on how to use wing chun against a gun etc, when there arent any complete answers)


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## KHayden (Mar 30, 2010)

I believe the only real way to test Wing Chun is bareknuckle with as few rules as possible. The moment you start adding rules for safety it becomes sport and not reality. People just have to be accept the possibility of getting hurt. If not anything that is done will be artificial.


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## bully (Mar 31, 2010)

KHayden said:


> I believe the only real way to test Wing Chun is bareknuckle with as few rules as possible. The moment you start adding rules for safety it becomes sport and not reality. People just have to be accept the possibility of getting hurt. If not anything that is done will be artificial.



But who is going to do this?

Even the guys on Wingchunfightclub don't seem to "fight" as often as they want to. That site was started purely to talk about and mainly practice realistic WC fighting.

In this day and age people have too much to lose, jobs, family, house etc. If you and I have a bareknuckle fight and you chain punched me in the face, a cracked cheekbone, black eyes and bust lips will not go down too well at home/life in general. 

There is also the threat of getting sued with such a litigious society at present. Maybe cops getting involved too.

I do agree with you though, it is the only way, but not practical now. Which is why the loss of the older WC guys who did fight actually fight in this way is such a huge loss.


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## KHayden (Mar 31, 2010)

I suppose you would just need people that are perfectly willing to take that risk. When UFC started it was all bareknuckle with few rules and no one was seriously hurt. Bareknuckle boxing still goes on in the UK. I think it would be good for all arts to go back to a more realistic training style. Sports oriented mentality is ruining martial arts.


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## dungeonworks (Apr 6, 2010)

bully said:


> But who is going to do this?
> 
> Even the guys on Wingchunfightclub don't seem to "fight" as often as they want to. That site was started purely to talk about and mainly practice realistic WC fighting.
> 
> ...



I dunno about all the old guys, but even Wong Shun Leung has been quoted as saying his roof top fights had some form of rules or value system of respect for not using certain attacks or targets.  What idiot would want to compete without some form of civility unless it was an even more idiotic death match or some assnine fantasy such as that?

No rules fighting still goes on in Brazil without gloves.  They have VERY MINIMAL rules such as no biting or eye gouging.  Everything else goes.  Thats really dang close to what many in this thread are saying they would want in a competition, yet there are no video/film of these Wing Chun fighters in action.  Why???  You would think there would be SOMETHING SOMEWHERE for examination, aside the "arguable" Ving Tsun in the first couple UFC's when it was bareknuckle.  Jason Delucia used VT in several MMA competitions around the world and made a decent respectable career out of his skills, but eventually evolved with other styles including Aikido and shootwrestling I believe.  Alan Orr and his guys do good in MMA and have a 7 DVD series on how they adapted their Wing Chun into the cage with respectable results.

....and if the Vale Tudo is still not Chunny enough for you, why has anyone here not yet been into the "Felony Fights" yet?  They have ALL the rules some of you think you need for Wing Chun to be effective in competition.....NO RULES AT ALL!  The fights are setup from a dueling perspective.  In other words, you square off and go at it until one is knocked decisively unconscious or gives up.  You can wear gloves only if you want to.

Felony Fights Videos Online

Felony Fights Website

They even offer 2 on 2 or multiple attackers!

 :flame:is suit on!


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## Vajramusti (Apr 6, 2010)

Fights are fights- the rest are all simulations and they can come in different flavors.

Films are just films- but in Kurosawa's famous samurai film with the seven samurai- there was the scene where the best swordsman was challenged 
by someone. They decided to "spar" -the challenger cliaimed victory- but the samurai said that the challenger would have been killed in a real fight.

The challenger persisted and insited on a real fight.They fought with real swords--one well aimed,timed and controlled slash and the challenger was cut in half and died.

Just a film-but still interesting and instructive.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 6, 2010)

I have recently seen a lot of clips on the net of very good cage fighters saying they would hate to have a streetfight becuase it is different to what they do. Even Dana White had an interview (Special Features on the DVD 'Red Belt') where he stated that cage fighting is completely different to street fighting and is considered a sport

Dont get me wrong, cagefighters and MMA are extremely dangerous guys, but they train with rules and set conditions. They would probably handle themselves in most situations in the street. 

The difference with wing chun is that we get straight in and do not allow the opponent any room to disengage, back away or use weapons. In MMA events, the fighters try to wear their opponent down which is too slow (three rounds of five minutes each etc), and most of the time the situation is a draw!

You need arts that are effective at street level (such as wing chun). Yet to fight in a cage, MMA is king


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## dungeonworks (Apr 6, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> I have recently seen a lot of clips on the net of very good cage fighters saying they would hate to have a streetfight becuase it is different to what they do. Even Dana White had an interview (Special Features on the DVD 'Red Belt') where he stated that cage fighting is completely different to street fighting and is considered a sport
> 
> Dont get me wrong, cagefighters and MMA are extremely dangerous guys, but they train with rules and set conditions. They would probably handle themselves in most situations in the street.
> 
> ...



I see and agree with what you are saying about MMA Kamon, and personally know many MMA guys that kick butt in the cage and never took or recieved a strike outside it.  I also know many MMA guys that ARE street fighters and use the cage as an outlet for over aggression that has or will land them in the clink if they did not have it.  I feel for those naive enough to believe all or even most MMA figthers are just atheletes.  Heck, you can find MMA represented in the Felony Fights and even Karate and Tae Kwon Do I think.  I haven't seen Wing Chun in there yet.

Wing Chun is designed to end fights as fast as they start, is it not?  At least that is what is claimed a lot around here.  I still have not seen any fight videos of anyone claiming Wing Chun Ving Tsun or anyother spelling of the name of the art.  When someone does claim it is Wing Chun et al, it is usually shot down as not being WC at all.  Then, when it is related to MMA, if the WC guy loses, all hell breaks loose with stupid comments from people that I would strongly assume have never been punched let alone been in a real fight.  These WC people will trash MMA and come up with *EVERY EXCUSE IN THE BOOK* as to why WC won't work in competition of *ANY TYPE* but is *TOTALLY LETHAL* in the streets!  Are the laws of physics different in "The Streets" compared with the rest of the world???  There are all kinds of accessible bareknuckle, minimal rules, and no rules at all competitions in Brazil, USA, and I am sure the UK has them too as Bareknuckle boxing is a hefty part of their Heritage from what I understand.  I remember reading not long ago that it is making quite the resurgence in Ireland.

Anyways, the point of my post is this:  The competitions are out there that fit the requests of the postings above, with and without gloves (Bareknuckle boxing, boxing, K-1, Muay Thai, Kyokushin/Ashihara  tourneys...ect), stand up only no grappling (SanShou, ShuiCao, Bareknuckle boxing), stand up only and limited stand up grappling , *NO RULES OR LIMITATIONS AT ALL* (Felony Fights) and the like.  Chunner's want their art to be respected, otherwise this thread and the WC vs MMA threads would not happen and feelings would not be hurt over the lack of respect.  I see LOADS of WC in the movies, instructionals, pre arranged scenarios...ect, but not at all in surveilance footage of assaults, martial competition, nor have I seen it in a bar or on "The Streets".  Everyone seems to talk of the "The Streets" and then tries to rationalize statements with general estimations of what Fighter A would or would not do if Fighter B did.....  Where's the meat and potatoes video or filmed proof that WC is what everyone says in "The Streets".  The world is under video surveillance.  Somewhere there has to be footage.  I am not saying Wing Chun of any flavor is bad or useless as I would not be interested in it if I was not getting use of it and seeing it in my own sparring.  What I am saying is that many (most???) Chunner's on here have a seriously SKEWED and FANTASY vision of "The Streets" and Martial Sport.

Also, I am not pushing the Felony Fights, just that it is easy for all to see and they have no rules and I am using them as an example of what is out there.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 7, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> I see and agree with what you are saying about MMA Kamon, and personally know many MMA guys that kick butt in the cage and never took or recieved a strike outside it. I also know many MMA guys that ARE street fighters and use the cage as an outlet for over aggression that has or will land them in the clink if they did not have it. I feel for those naive enough to believe all or even most MMA figthers are just atheletes. Heck, you can find MMA represented in the Felony Fights and even Karate and Tae Kwon Do I think. I haven't seen Wing Chun in there yet.
> 
> Wing Chun is designed to end fights as fast as they start, is it not? At least that is what is claimed a lot around here. I still have not seen any fight videos of anyone claiming Wing Chun Ving Tsun or anyother spelling of the name of the art. When someone does claim it is Wing Chun et al, it is usually shot down as not being WC at all. Then, when it is related to MMA, if the WC guy loses, all hell breaks loose with stupid comments from people that I would strongly assume have never been punched let alone been in a real fight. These WC people will trash MMA and come up with *EVERY EXCUSE IN THE BOOK* as to why WC won't work in competition of *ANY TYPE* but is *TOTALLY LETHAL* in the streets! Are the laws of physics different in "The Streets" compared with the rest of the world??? There are all kinds of accessible bareknuckle, minimal rules, and no rules at all competitions in Brazil, USA, and I am sure the UK has them too as Bareknuckle boxing is a hefty part of their Heritage from what I understand. I remember reading not long ago that it is making quite the resurgence in Ireland.
> 
> ...


 
As I have mentioned before, I have used my wing chun in karate knockdowns, caged competitions and bare knuckle tournaments. I'll admit at times there were elements of other arts that I used, but most of it was traditional wing chun. The trouble is that a lot of wing chun moves are illegal in most 'respected' competitions. Not because wing chun is lethal - wing chun is as lethal as any other art. The point of wing chun is that it closes distance and then hacks away at the opponent with nasty moves 

You are completely right that most MMA guys are not just athletes and I hope you didnt take my original point to mean that. What I was saying was that the format of the UFC is sport based. The fighters themselves are very varied. One fighter I love to watch - Neil Groves comes from a karate background and uses it to devastating effect in the cage. However, I guarantee that he would do more damage outside the cage than inside! 

I do get tired of people on certain sites whinging that there are no fight vids of wing chun. If someone wants to follow me around with a camera and attempt to film me the next time i get set upon then be my guest. I got attacked by three guys two months ago and if it wasnt for my wing chun, I wouldnt be alive. Its as simple as that

Im a great advocate of learnng other styles and using what works, but I am specifically referring to the MMA idiots who insist that the cage is a proving ground. I found the cage easy compared to many confrontations Ive had in public and would rather fight in there than in the streets. 
Watching videos of boxers does not prove anything to me. I read a nice interview in Zoo magazine this week with the World Heavyweight champ who actually said that he wouldnt like to take on some of the Millwall fans because it isnt the same environment as the outside world

As for other types of competitions, there are loads. Chi sao competitions, wing chun fight tournaments, etc. There are plenty of examples on the net of wing chun in action, but I think most people ignore them and continue to bash wing chun. LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dungeonworks (Apr 7, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> As I have mentioned before, I have used my wing chun in karate knockdowns, caged competitions and bare knuckle tournaments. I'll admit at times there were elements of other arts that I used, but most of it was traditional wing chun. The trouble is that a lot of wing chun moves are illegal in most 'respected' competitions. Not because wing chun is lethal - wing chun is as lethal as any other art. The point of wing chun is that it closes distance and then hacks away at the opponent with nasty moves
> 
> You are completely right that most MMA guys are not just athletes and I hope you didnt take my original point to mean that. What I was saying was that the format of the UFC is sport based. The fighters themselves are very varied. One fighter I love to watch - Neil Groves comes from a karate background and uses it to devastating effect in the cage. However, I guarantee that he would do more damage outside the cage than inside!
> 
> ...



So you, compete/competed in various venues of martial sport, and fought in the street....and you cross train/trained in other styles.  How many chunners here lift their nose at the thought of cross training?  How many Chunners here lift their noses and critique everything without tasting it themselves or bash the videos of others work.  How many Chunner's here have *EVERY EXCUSE IN THE BOOK* as to why Chunner's do not compete using the almighty "It's too deadly for sport!" and "It was made for the Streets!" excuses.

....and then the aforementioned Chunner's wonder why Wing Chun is not as respected like a Muay Thai or MMA among the general Martial Arts population and get all persnickety when somebody asks for some form of validity or some video of it in action.  The reason is, it is not as SEEN and as with most self defense styles, looks nowheres near as fluid and pretty as it is in ChiSau or forms training.  Same with Karate, Judo, TKD, Jiujitsu of any flavor....ect.  You have been in fights Kamon Guy, you know what I am saying.  The moves and muscle memory are there on a smaller level, but things still go frantic when the adrenaline starts pumping or you are attacked while off guard from behind or the side or other awkward angle...ect.  In otherwords, I bet Chuck Norris don't fight like, nor as pretty as Cordell Walker does on Walker Texas Ranger! LOL

For the record, I am not dogging the art on Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun (or anyother spelling of the style) in any way...just the blinder wearing types that cannot see past what their sifu says....and that goes for ANY art.  I have conversed with a lot of Hapkido people of the same closed minded blinder wearing tunnel vision ilk as well.


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## dungeonworks (Apr 7, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> Fights are fights- the rest are all simulations and they can come in different flavors.
> 
> Films are just films- but in Kurosawa's famous samurai film with the seven samurai- there was the scene where the best swordsman was challenged
> by someone. They decided to "spar" -the challenger cliaimed victory- but the samurai said that the challenger would have been killed in a real fight.
> ...



Interesting?  Yes, I agree.  Instructive???  *NOT AT ALL!!!! * It was just a movie with a good story.

Good movie though...been YEARS since I have seen it.


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## Malleus (Apr 8, 2010)

On the topic of MMA:

The ring is a fantastic proving ground, for a multitude of reasons. Not least of all is the fact that it's a full on fight, with very little rules. Granted, you can't eyegouge, bite, fish-hook or headbutt, but such techniques are all easy to preform. I don't think an MMA fighter is going to be at a significant disadvantage 'on the street' because they can't practice them in the ring. Any nine year old can throw a headbutt.

As far as I'm concerned, what matters most in a real fight is unbridled aggression and power. Rapid, powerful strikes are how you knock someone out. There's no game playing or feeling the opponent out, just open up 100% and go for it. Gross motor skills don't suffer the same degredation as fine motor skills in a high-adrenaline situation. One-step sparring (like in my original style of TSD) may be pretty and impressive, but it's worse than useless in a real confrontation, because not only is it ineffective outside of a rigidly defined pattern, but it gives one the feeling of competency.

For a NHB fight, be it street or ring, aggression goes a long way, as does power. I think that unless you're fighting full-force occasionally as a form of pain inoculation, you're deluding yourself as to your abilities. I'm also adverse to "if x does this, counter with y and then z" thinking. It doesn't work. Perfect basic tools such as punches and kicks, and then learn how to use them effectively when you're getting pounded on. Everything else is academic. 

As to wing chun, I don't know much about it suffice to say I've never seen it in a cage or on the street. It doesn't mean it's ineffective, but I can't help wondering if it has such strong moves to offer, why has it not become more popular in NHB contests? Or even why have the skills offered not been poached and incorporated into MMA training regimes? (Maybe they have, but I've never heard of them.)


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## mook jong man (Apr 8, 2010)

Malleus said:


> As to wing chun, I don't know much about it suffice to say I've never seen it in a cage or on the street. It doesn't mean it's ineffective, but I can't help wondering if it has such strong moves to offer, why has it not become more popular in NHB contests? Or even why have the skills offered not been poached and incorporated into MMA training regimes? (Maybe they have, but I've never heard of them.)


 
My thoughts are 

The training can be very boring and repetitive.
It doesn't look flashy or cool.
Its not the flavour of the month.
There are very few qualified people to teach it properly and actually know what they are doing.
Silat is also a very effective art but you don't see that in the cage either , just because something is not seen in the cage doesn't mean it is not a valid fighting art.
We kind of stand funny , we do short little girly punches and practice a strange drill where two grown men face each other with their arms making contact with the other mans arms and rotating them.
It doesn't look very macho , and probably would not fit in with the heavily tattooed tough guy image that is so prevalent these days.
Most Wing Chun people are not interested in competition they have jobs and families and just want to do their two nights a week or whatever , learn some self defence , maybe lose a bit of weight and thats it.
They don't have neither the time  nor the inclination to put in the hard work required for conditioning and the extra training that would be needed.

They are just everyday people women , kids , old people .
For the reasons I outlined above a lot of the fit young aggressive men do not tend to last too long in Wing Chun.

As I said the training can be very boring and repetitive at the lower levels ,at least until you start learning Chi sau and a lot of them would leave before then.

They would prefer to go and do the arts that are more mainstream and popular such as Bjj , Muay Thai and Boxing.
Try telling people that you do Wing Chun and they give you a blank look and say " Wasn't that a crappy 80's band ".

To be honest I don't give a rats **** what people think , let them think Wing Chun's a load of crap.
It's only going to make our job a whole lot easier when we are underestimated.


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## Malleus (Apr 8, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> My thoughts are
> 
> The training can be very boring and repetitive.
> It doesn't look flashy or cool.
> ...


 
After writing my initial comment, I took it upon myself to look into wing chun on youtube. I was actually kinda impressed. The punching is weak (sweeping generalisation I know), but it's centreline attacks and rapidity are such that a hell of a lot of fighters from other styles don't seem to know what to do about it. It smothers them. I can't see them getting a knockout with it, but it's definately disorientating enough to look into further.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related (ugly I know, but the TKD guy has no clue what to do.)





 (goes on for 4 rounds, with the kickboxer becoming gradually more dominant and eventually winning, but the first round at least is interesting.)

I can only assume that the lack of KO power is the reason that MMA guys don't use the centreline chain-punching, because it seems to be effective enough otherwise. Thoughts?


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## dosk3n (Apr 8, 2010)

I have to disagree with you as there is a hell of a lot of power in a wing chun punch. 

Myth busters demonstrated the force difference between the one inch punch and a full on hook and there is a big gap between them but both were very powerful, and this was the one inch punch. Make it a full range punch with turning and add in the wall bag training and you have a devistating blow. Coupled with 4 - 6 of them a second and there is your knock out power.

The difference is the type of knock out though. As far as I am aware there are 2 types of knock out and I am no expert so Im sure someone will correct me, but there is one type where there is a nerve close to the jaw that when knocked will shut down the brain and knock you out.

The second is when you get hit hard and your brain moves to the side of your head and you are heat again without giving the brain time to move back to position then that will knock you out.

With Wing Chun you have more of a chance to get the latter and most people dont go in another and from my opinion seem to be more worried about getting in and getting out as fast as they can instead of going in and putting in a lot of power.

Thats just my thoughts.

Cant check the videos as I am at work and youtube is blocked.


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2010)

Malleus said:


> I can only assume that *the lack of KO power* is the reason that MMA guys don't use the centreline chain-punching, because it seems to be effective enough otherwise. Thoughts?


 
You _can_ get KO power into a bare-knuckle centerline punch if you put your _body_ behind it instead of just flailing away at 100 mph... but with gloves it's a lot harder, and you lose a lot of the "short-power" that is so important. So I'd agree that that may be one factor. Beyond that, I'd say that WC is works because it is a tightly integrated _system._ Each technique works in synergy with the rest, but would not work well out of context. You can't "cherry pick" WC techniques and expect them to work. And since the rules of the ring/cage effectively eliminate many parts of the WC system, what is left is an incomplete structure and not as effective. Arts that have evolved in the context of ring competition like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, and BJJ just seem to lend themselves better to this environment.


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## Malleus (Apr 8, 2010)

dosk3n said:


> .
> 
> Myth busters demonstrated the force difference between the one inch punch and a full on hook and there is a big gap between them but both were very powerful, and this was the one inch punch. Make it a full range punch with turning and add in the wall bag training and you have a devistating blow. Coupled with 4 - 6 of them a second and there is your knock out power.


 
Yes, I recall seeing 'Fight Science', which did a comparitive study between a variety of different styles. It wasn't particuarly scientific, given that they didn't weight match opponents, but Kung Fu punching came in at the weakest in terms of impact generated (Though the kung fu practitioner was also the smallest of the fighters being examined.) Nevertheless, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the sacrifice of the chain punching is that you cannot effectively throw your body into the punches: the recovery time isn't enough to allow the rapidity you guys show. Case in point, in the first video I provided, the TKD practitioner is covered in a wall of blows, but none of them even come close to knocking the guy down, or out. I know the counterargument is that the impact generated is still generally equal, because power = work/time, and if you if you can throw two wing chun punches in the time it takes to throw a cross, then the power level is equal. Unfortunately, it's impulse that counts more than power in a knockout. The terms are used rather interchangably.

A wing chun punch seems to have the advantage of coming from the centreline, where it is supported directly by the weight of the body. However, correct me if I'm wrong, there's little to no hip involvement, which ultimately limits power. 



> The difference is the type of knock out though. As far as I am aware there are 2 types of knock out and I am no expert so Im sure someone will correct me, but there is one type where there is a nerve close to the jaw that when knocked will shut down the brain and knock you out.
> 
> The second is when you get hit hard and your brain moves to the side of your head and you are heat again without giving the brain time to move back to position then that will knock you out.


 
That is my understanding of knockouts too: not only is there a mandibular nerve that is vulnerable, but the mandible itself can channel quite a lot of the impact straight into the brain. The second KO you mentioned is a concussion. As regards to chin knockouts, they still require a lot of power, and western boxers/ pro MMA fighters like to keep their chin tucked way down for just this reason. It's a trick everyone should follow, and I don't think it could hurt for a wing chun practitioner either.



> You can't "cherry pick" WC techniques and expect them to work. And since the rules of the ring/cage effectively eliminate many parts of the WC system, what is left is an incomplete structure and not as effective.


 
Out of interest, what are the parts of the WC system that are banned from the ring?


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## dungeonworks (Apr 8, 2010)

Malleus said:


> After writing my initial comment, I took it upon myself to look into wing chun on youtube. I was actually kinda impressed. The punching is weak (sweeping generalisation I know), but it's centreline attacks and rapidity are such that a hell of a lot of fighters from other styles don't seem to know what to do about it. It smothers them. I can't see them getting a knockout with it, but it's definately disorientating enough to look into further.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related (ugly I know, but the TKD guy has no clue what to do.)
> 
> ...



The Wing Chun punches do hurt....alot actually.   If the first one doesn't, then the next 25 will, at least that is the general thinking on straight blasting as I know of it.  One area I noticed great use of Wing Chun is ironically on the ground.  Wing Chun striking works wonders from your back on the ground compared to the wind up and toss of boxing or other arts....just my opinion and what I have found working for myself.

As far as those videos, that's what I'm referring to.  Look at the comments by other so called chunner's and the irony will present itself.  I enjoyed seeing what the Russian Chunner's are doing on YouTube, (since they are a bit far from the USA LOL).  They have little trouble against Muay Thai, Kickboxing, San Shou, or wrestling in the Kwoon matches they shown and yet still have people in the comments talking crap about how it is not Wing Chun because his pinky toe on his left foot was one micrometer out of place....ect.


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## Malleus (Apr 8, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> The Wing Chun punches do hurt....alot actually.  If the first one doesn't, then the next 25 will, at least that is the general thinking on straight blasting as I know of it. One area I noticed great use of Wing Chun is ironically on the ground. Wing Chun striking works wonders from your back on the ground compared to the wind up and toss of boxing or other arts....just my opinion and what I have found working for myself.


 
Interesting. I stumbled across a thread over on Bullshido looking at Wing Chun in MMA, and there were quite a lot of people (for Bullshido) agreeing that it would have a good use in ground and pound. I assumed they meant from a dominant position, but your interpretation makes more sense. Interesting.

I looked up a few tutorials on chain-punching and gave it a go on the heavy-bag tonight. I can't generate much power in comparison to my boxing strikes, but I was very impressed with the sheer speed you can throw them out at. Power might come with training, though I don't think it'll ever supercede my boxing training. A very nice and possibly useful adjunct though.



> As far as those videos, that's what I'm referring to. Look at the comments by other so called chunner's and the irony will present itself. I enjoyed seeing what the Russian Chunner's are doing on YouTube, (since they are a bit far from the USA LOL). They have little trouble against Muay Thai, Kickboxing, San Shou, or wrestling in the Kwoon matches they shown and yet still have people in the comments talking crap about how it is not Wing Chun because his pinky toe on his left foot was one micrometer out of place....ect.


 
Aye, well Youtube is definately one of the cesspools of the internet. You could be the greatest fighter of all times, simultaneously knocking out Gracie, Lee, Ali and Lesnar, and you'd still have the masses calling you a gaylord and challenging you fly to their country and try that stuff with them and see how it flies. They're also typically Navy Seals and taught Elvis Presley how to karate.

But must look into the Russians so, cheers.


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## dungeonworks (Apr 8, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> My thoughts are
> 
> The training can be very boring and repetitive.
> It doesn't look flashy or cool.
> ...



Then why do they generally get their knickers in a bunch when the topic of Wing Chun (*IN* or *VERSUS*) MMA or other arts or Wing Chun in sport competition comes up or video of a claimed chunner getting beatdown on YouTube comes up?  How can they gripe that Wing Chun is getting no respect from other arts that compete and have so much more exposure??  That is the part that confounds me.  Many chunners here and on other sites want all this major respect for Wing Chun the style but without exposure, and the nitpicking of those using it in sport (ala some YouTube and Orr's guys or Grado's guys) only compounds and fuels this argument.

I guarantee that if the next UFC champion claims Wing Chun as his base style, man, the Chun world would ALL OVER IT with "See I told ya so's" after years of "It wasn't designed for competition!" arguments against, just like the Karate guys when Machida won his belt. 

I have seen Silat in an ametuer MMA show in Goshen Indiana.  He won but by BJJ choke as he cross trains several arts from what he said.

....and again, I am not arguing or saying Wing Chun is worthless or something less.  Some of the guys I used to train with may likely whoop my a$$ with it and I would have no interest in it if I didn't see any value in it come out in my own sparring in JKD.


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## mook jong man (Apr 9, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> Then why do they generally get their knickers in a bunch when the topic of Wing Chun (*IN* or *VERSUS*) MMA or other arts or Wing Chun in sport competition comes up or video of a claimed chunner getting beatdown on YouTube comes up? How can they gripe that Wing Chun is getting no respect from other arts that compete and have so much more exposure?? That is the part that confounds me. Many chunners here and on other sites want all this major respect for Wing Chun the style but without exposure, and the nitpicking of those using it in sport (ala some YouTube and Orr's guys or Grado's guys) only compounds and fuels this argument.
> 
> I guarantee that if the next UFC champion claims Wing Chun as his base style, man, the Chun world would ALL OVER IT with "See I told ya so's" after years of "It wasn't designed for competition!" arguments against, just like the Karate guys when Machida won his belt.
> 
> ...


 
Because the people who generally get their knickers in a knot are one eyed , just the same as with religions or politics.

You get people from the Wing Chun camp , usually " The my stance is so good I'll never get taken to the ground " brigade who have never trained in grappling and on the other hand you get some MMA people dismissing Wing Chun as rubbish because it is not seen in the octagon when they haven't even trained in it and their sole exposure to the system is via youtube.

Both sides of the argument are born from ignorance in my opinion.
I enjoy training in Wing Chun and grappling , to me they are just different tools that I will use according to the circumstances that I am in at the time.

The Wing Chun system was not designed with the goal of competition in mind , it is a martial art that was formulated to protect life and limb and promote good health well into old age.

Regardless of the exposure that Wing Chun gets or doesn't get or what martial art fads come and go now and into the future Wing Chun will always be a useful , logical and practical method for  for self defence.

I do agree with you that if some Wing Chun based fighter does get up and start beating people in MMA then the " Chun world " will be all over it , but thats only human nature isn't.
Just the same as it is human nature for people to knock what they don't understand about Wing Chun.


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## mook jong man (Apr 9, 2010)

Malleus said:


> Yes, I recall seeing 'Fight Science', which did a comparitive study between a variety of different styles. It wasn't particuarly scientific, given that they didn't weight match opponents, but Kung Fu punching came in at the weakest in terms of impact generated (Though the kung fu practitioner was also the smallest of the fighters being examined.) Nevertheless, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the sacrifice of the chain punching is that you cannot effectively throw your body into the punches: the recovery time isn't enough to allow the rapidity you guys show. Case in point, in the first video I provided, the TKD practitioner is covered in a wall of blows, but none of them even come close to knocking the guy down, or out. I know the counterargument is that the impact generated is still generally equal, because power = work/time, and if you if you can throw two wing chun punches in the time it takes to throw a cross, then the power level is equal. Unfortunately, it's impulse that counts more than power in a knockout. The terms are used rather interchangably.
> 
> A wing chun punch seems to have the advantage of coming from the centreline, where it is supported directly by the weight of the body. However, correct me if I'm wrong, there's little to no hip involvement, which ultimately limits power.
> 
> ...


 

The power of the punch comes from moving your body forward as a unified mass in synchronization with your arm , the faster you move your body forward the more powerful the punch.

The Wing Chun punch accelerates to the target and just before impact the hand closes which accelerates the strike even more and gives a penetrating type of force.

In the case of multiple strikes like chain punching the first punch will hit the head and cause trauma to the brain and as somebody already said the brain has no time to recover before the next punch comes in thus causing unconsciousness .

The power of the punches also come from the structure of the stance and depending on which lineage you are from internal energy may also be involved.

This method is different to the knockout caused by the centrifugal forces which usually act on someones head when they are hit by boxers hooks to the jaw.

To think of the Wing Chun punches as just a mere tool to bludgeon the opponent into submission is to sell the technique and the system short.

The vertical position of the fist and the knuckles used to strike with are in good skeletal alignment with the forearm .

The centreline chain punches provide a type of shield to the user as the opponent must deviate and come around them to attack.

The elbow down position affords very good protection to the ribcage as the punch is only out for a fraction of a second then back in positon again to protect.

The punches are economical in movement and at anytime they can be interrupted and converted into more defensive hand structures.

The vertical position of the fist and elbows in and down mean that we can use the bottom of the forearms to gain tactile information from the opponents arms and redirect his force.

This way of punching used in the correct range also has a built in trapping effect on the opponents arms as the Wing Chun mans forearms are continually sawed back and forth over the opponents arms as he is being hit and controlled.

From the chain punching position it is easy to latch or cutdown on the opponents arms to remove any attempt by him to block or protect himself .

To have your chin down would compromise the Wing Chun structure , and just make it easier for someone to pull your head and ultimately your body down.

The arms are used to defend the upper body in Wing Chun against hand strikes.
The posture must be kept upright , spine , head and neck in alignment without this a lot of concepts and principles in Wing Chun will fail.

Just like a plastic ruler on its end when you press on it , its quite strong if it is kept straight , but once it is allowed to bend then structural integrity is lost.
Also if your lineage is one that tries to cultivate " Nim Lik "or Wing Chun "Thought force" then proper alignment of the vertebrae up to the neck and head is a huge must.

I don't know what Wing Chun techniques would be banned from the ring , probably the usual stuff like attacking the eyes , the throat , the groin.

But having gloves on would seriously limit the effect of the Wing Chun punches , and wearing no shoes wouldn't give a low heel kick to the shin or knee quite the same stopping power as it would on the street with shoes on.

Also I wouldn't like to see somebody who's trained in Wing Chun for a long time use a Bil Gee elbow on someone in the ring , that elbow strike can generate immense power on a small surface area.
My late Sifu put a bouncer in hospital with a Bil Gee elbow strike that caved the guys sternum in. 


In my opinion it is the incredible power that can be generated in some of the techniques , when you have been on the receiving end of them from someone who is a genuine master then you would not like to see them used on a human being unless it was absolutely the last resort.

Probably in the future you will see some type of modified Wing Chun used in sport combat events but as with all the other arts they will also have training in a ground based system as well.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 9, 2010)

Whilst I hate to reference other martial artists other than myself, I would mention again that I know of at least two chunners who have active involvement in the MMA world. Alan Orr competes in MMA events and uses pretty much only wing chun and catch wrestling. Kevin Chan (my instructor) is very well known in the fight world and with a lot of professional cage fighters. He will testify everytime, the effectiveness of a wing chun punch. Certainly, if you are a big guy, then things like hooks and boxing punches will be suited for you. What people forget is that there are little guys out there who dont have the luxury of being put against an opponent who is their own bodyweight. I spar a lot, and being a massive guy means that smaller guys struggle. I often have to back off a little, because soem people are literally a third of my bodyweight and hitting them even half power would seriously hurt them. However, in a lot of wing chun techniques, size does not matter as much. Obviously big people are always a little harder to overpower as there is more mass to control

My point is that if you put a heavyweight UFC guy with a welterweight UFC guy, who do you think would win? Honestly?

Dungeonworks - people get their knickers in a twist in the wing chun world when people insist that the cage is the ONLY proving ground. I have fought in tournaments (when I did my karate knockdown two years ago I was a blue belt facing black belts), I have won self defence competitions 

http://www.kamonwingchun.co.uk/FeatureSouthEastMartialArtsFestival.asp

and yet people still whinge about 'evidence'. There are plenty of exchunners who compete in the MMA world but point blank refuse to acknowledge it. Even Chuck Liddell once mentioned how he enjoyed the traditional styles and found uses for each style - including wing chun. Mike Bispin was at SENO two years ago and was talking about wing chun and how he had admired it

So my gripe comes with people who insist that cage and competition environment is the only way to test your art. I dont agree.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 9, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> So you, compete/competed in various venues of martial sport, and fought in the street....and you cross train/trained in other styles. How many chunners here lift their nose at the thought of cross training? How many Chunners here lift their noses and critique everything without tasting it themselves or bash the videos of others work. How many Chunner's here have *EVERY EXCUSE IN THE BOOK* as to why Chunner's do not compete using the almighty "It's too deadly for sport!" and "It was made for the Streets!" excuses.
> 
> ....and then the aforementioned Chunner's wonder why Wing Chun is not as respected like a Muay Thai or MMA among the general Martial Arts population and get all persnickety when somebody asks for some form of validity or some video of it in action. The reason is, it is not as SEEN and as with most self defense styles, looks nowheres near as fluid and pretty as it is in ChiSau or forms training. Same with Karate, Judo, TKD, Jiujitsu of any flavor....ect. You have been in fights Kamon Guy, you know what I am saying. The moves and muscle memory are there on a smaller level, but things still go frantic when the adrenaline starts pumping or you are attacked while off guard from behind or the side or other awkward angle...ect. In otherwords, I bet Chuck Norris don't fight like, nor as pretty as Cordell Walker does on Walker Texas Ranger! LOL
> 
> For the record, I am not dogging the art on Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun (or anyother spelling of the style) in any way...just the blinder wearing types that cannot see past what their sifu says....and that goes for ANY art. I have conversed with a lot of Hapkido people of the same closed minded blinder wearing tunnel vision ilk as well.


 
Sorry I just read this....
Yeah i know what you are saying Dungeonworks. There are chunners who are a bit too blinded by wing chun to see anything else. I am a strong advocate of cross training and seeing what else is out there. Even if you are a wing chun 'purist' you can still see and appreciate other styles and the uses of them

I trained a few years ago with Choi Kwang Do and found it to be the worst organisation I had ever come across in 23 years of training. Yet there is still a lot of cardio training they did which was beneficial. What annoyed me the most is that I went to one of their 24 hour open training halls and asked if they allowed anyone in to train there (people from other styles). Instead of saying 'no' and letting it be, the owner turned his nose up and said 'there is no other style other than CKD'. Its one of the reasons why I left

I love competitions, but I get annoyed when people say that they need 'evidence' of it working. I have never seen any one style working in the cage, and I have never seen MMA working in the street. Does it mean they are useless? No

Wing chun is a good art. It has a lot of uses. If it didnt, I wouldnt train in it! Different arts are made for different things. Tae Kwon Do is pretty terrible close quarters. It doesnt make it rubbish. I do not rate wing chun on the ground at all. Does that mean the whole art is rubbish? No

There are ways of bringing wing chun into the cage, but it was never really designed for sport purposes. It is definately not 'too deadly' for th cage. There are numerous reasons why wing chun wouldnt be great in the cage and the main one being that the natural flow would be disrupted by the elimiation of certain techniques. Looking at moves such as the elbow, knife hand strike, palm strike, finger strikes, stamp kicks, etc, you would be hard pressed to see how a chunner could use his natural attacks in the cage. I use things like fut sao, muen guen sao to elbow quite a lot, but it would be banned in those sort of competitions

I know it sounds like whining but it would be like asking a boxer to enter the cage using only jabs. Sure he could do it, but he wouldnt be too successful

Peace out


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## mook jong man (Apr 9, 2010)

Try walking around the streets of Sydney on a Friday or Saturday night at 2 am and you'll find plenty of opportunities to test your art.

Except it won't be on a nice mat , there won't be adequate lighting , there will be no referee to stop it , you will probably have someone else with you that you have to protect ie (wife or girlfriend) , there will be no rules , weapons may or may not be involved and if your extremely lucky the attacker maybe the same size as you and be on his own.

But don't count on that its more likely to be a gang of Tongans /Samoans who are all built like brick outhouses or just as dangerous the gangs of Aboriginals who are likely to have done a bit of boxing , and last but not least the Lebanese gangs who have a penchant for carrying knives or hand guns.

So until martial athletes have to face those types of people in the Octagon under no rules with multiple attackers then it is not reality but an artificial construct , a sport.

The true reality is normal people , not elite athletes with million dollar sponsorships are getting attacked by these gutless thugs in the streets everyday and in my opinion you need a lightning fast , aggressive , low kicking style to cope with multiple attackers , that along with good positioning strategy and I reckon Wing Chun fits the bill.


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## dungeonworks (Apr 9, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Try walking around the streets of Sydney on a Friday or Saturday night at 2 am and you'll find plenty of opportunities to test your art.



Brother please, I grew up in and around Detroit, MI and live just outside (and visit frequently) the city of Flint, MI.  I could show you a million different Redneck bars you'd get the same at 2am (our bar closing time).  You're preaching to the choir on how bad a city can be! :uhyeah: :whip1:  I bet my suburban block or any country mile around here has more guns than the whole city of Sydney (We like our guns here...criminals and non criminals).  Around here, you bring a knife to a gunfight or rely just on Martial Arts *of any *alone, you are gonna lose.  It is very common and easier than ever to get a concealed carry permit (criminals don't usually care or bother because they are...well, CRIMINALS! LOL).  In Michigan, it is technically legal for open carry, but the cops will hassle you to no end and it is not worth the hassle unless you have your own law degree and are certified with the BAR assn. or have the cash to fight things in court.  Heck, even most small towns anywhere have places you do not go unless you are looking for trouble.



> So until martial athletes have to face those types of people in the  Octagon under no rules with multiple attackers then it is not reality  but an artificial construct , a sport.


Actually MJM, there was a story not long ago of an MMA fighter that just  fought after recovering from gunshot wounds after thwarting a failed  robbery attempt...failed because he fought back good enough before they  shot and ran.  Guy Metzger thwarted a home invasion a few years back.   Ken Shamrock has been in and out of detention halls and lived on the  streets before being adopted by Bob Shamrock.  I would be willing to bet  that the Nogueira's, (Thiago, Anderson, Wanderlei...ect) Silva's, and  many other Brazillian figters came from nastier streets than most of us  know (Curitaba and Rio De Jeniro).  The newer crop of UK fighters, some come from tough streets in England.  A LOT MORE are war veterans (some from elite military units), some  with purple hearts (notes war related injury) and other medals and  commendations.  *So where have the Wing Chunner's faced more of these situations than the rest of the martial arts world and therefore more competent and able to survive killer Tongan, Lebanese slasher, and Aboriginal boxing gangs?*  We have the same thing in ANY major US city with poor and destitute areas and even in some well to do small towns....I won't even mention the southern border states growing issues with WELL ARMED and WELL ORGANIZED Mexican and Columbian drug cartels....but I'd wager a good coin that there are far Far FAR more firearms in these gang's hands over here than anyother country in the world. 




> The true reality is normal people , not elite athletes with million  dollar sponsorships are getting attacked by these gutless thugs in the  streets everyday and in my opinion you need a lightning fast ,  aggressive , low kicking style to cope with multiple attackers , that  along with good positioning strategy and I reckon Wing Chun fits the  bill.


I can agree with this statement and add that so will Krav Maga and good training in most of the Fillipino and Indonesian styles....namely Kali and Silat, among other styles can accomplish the same thing.  The even TRUER reality of this is that it has been going on since the  first time one man desiring what another man has...and that predates  (and likely SPAWNED) the martial arts.  Curious though, why would you discount a man's self defense skills because of "million dollar sponsorships"?  Over here in the USA, MOST athletes in our major sports (especially boxing) come from poor and crime riddled areas.  Is it different in Oz?


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## dungeonworks (Apr 9, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> Sorry I just read this....
> Yeah i know what you are saying Dungeonworks. There are chunners who are a bit too blinded by wing chun to see anything else. I am a strong advocate of cross training and seeing what else is out there. Even if you are a wing chun 'purist' you can still see and appreciate other styles and the uses of them
> 
> I trained a few years ago with Choi Kwang Do and found it to be the worst organisation I had ever come across in 23 years of training. Yet there is still a lot of cardio training they did which was beneficial. What annoyed me the most is that I went to one of their 24 hour open training halls and asked if they allowed anyone in to train there (people from other styles). Instead of saying 'no' and letting it be, the owner turned his nose up and said 'there is no other style other than CKD'. Its one of the reasons why I left
> ...



Actually, in the early UFC's Royce Gracie used one style successfully against larger opponents!  But I do see what you are saying.  I still don't get why Wing Chun is not looked at for ground striking though.  Just the basic punching alone works nearly like magic from on your back, side control, top control...wherever.  In my Wing Chun Novice opinion, ChiSau comes into play here more than anyother spot.  I know I have been hung to dry for the mear mention of using BJJ as a supplement to Wing Chun, but man, roll for five minutes with even light contact striking and it becomes strikingly evident!

A few posts ago, you mentioned some UFC guys talking about traditional martial arts.  The majority of them came from these arts.  Liddell trained under and has his black belt in Koei-Kan-Karate-Do (the same style I trained in and consider my base) before meeting and training with Hawaiin Kempo expert John Hackleman.  Bisping trained Tae Kwon Do I believe as did David Louaso, Stephen Bonnar, and others.  Sammy Barek claims Wing Chun lineage but says he uses little of it in the cage.  Dan Hardy is a Shaolin Kung Fu stylist originally and even lived and trained at some Chinese Temple for a few months with the monks.  Machida is Shotokan Karate as Im sure you know, Vitor Belfort has been training Shotokan for the last few years and you can see it in his movement and guard.  The list goes on....but the common denominator is that many elements and techniques of ALL styles represented in MMA have been removed to suit the rules.  Some styles have more than can be used, but know that even Karate and TKD (not to minimize them) have knee, downed opponent, eyeball, and throat strikes in the CQC techniques.

MMA is MIXED MARTIAL ARTS for a reason because NO STYLE alone fits the rule set.  Gone are the first 5 UFC's where it was style vs style match-ups and no one pure style is presently dominating nor are they even represented anymore....and I do miss the style vs style match-ups dearly!  It was topic for debate many of late nights as a kid growing up!


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## mook jong man (Apr 9, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> Brother please, I grew up in and around Detroit, MI and live just outside (and visit frequently) the city of Flint, MI. I could show you a million different Redneck bars you'd get the same at 2am (our bar closing time). You're preaching to the choir on how bad a city can be! :uhyeah: :whip1: I bet my suburban block or any country mile around here has more guns than the whole city of Sydney (We like our guns here...criminals and non criminals). Around here, you bring a knife to a gunfight or rely just on Martial Arts *of any *alone, you are gonna lose. It is very common and easier than ever to get a concealed carry permit (criminals don't usually care or bother because they are...well, CRIMINALS! LOL). In Michigan, it is technically legal for open carry, but the cops will hassle you to no end and it is not worth the hassle unless you have your own law degree and are certified with the BAR assn. or have the cash to fight things in court. Heck, even most small towns anywhere have places you do not go unless you are looking for trouble.
> 
> Actually MJM, there was a story not long ago of an MMA fighter that just fought after recovering from gunshot wounds after thwarting a failed robbery attempt...failed because he fought back good enough before they shot and ran. Guy Metzger thwarted a home invasion a few years back. Ken Shamrock has been in and out of detention halls and lived on the streets before being adopted by Bob Shamrock. I would be willing to bet that the Nogueira's, (Thiago, Anderson, Wanderlei...ect) Silva's, and many other Brazillian figters came from nastier streets than most of us know (Curitaba and Rio De Jeniro). The newer crop of UK fighters, some come from tough streets in England. A LOT MORE are war veterans (some from elite military units), some with purple hearts (notes war related injury) and other medals and commendations. *So where have the Wing Chunner's faced more of these situations than the rest of the martial arts world and therefore more competent and able to survive killer Tongan, Lebanese slasher, and Aboriginal boxing gangs?* We have the same thing in ANY major US city with poor and destitute areas and even in some well to do small towns....I won't even mention the southern border states growing issues with WELL ARMED and WELL ORGANIZED Mexican and Columbian drug cartels....but I'd wager a good coin that there are far Far FAR more firearms in these gang's hands over here than anyother country in the world.
> 
> ...


 
You have made some very valid points and I won't get into a debating war as to whether what country has the most scumbags per capita.
Scumbags are scumbags no matter the nationality.

The point I was ineloquently trying to make is that you need an art such as Wing Chun with its practical , economical , relatively easy to do movements for the people that are not particularly athletic , maybe elderly , might be of small build , might have a disability etc etc.

These type of people need an equaliser like Wing Chun to give them a fighting chance to survive a self defense situation , they can't all go and train with Ken Shamrock at the Lions Den.


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## dungeonworks (Apr 10, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> You have made some very valid points and I won't get into a debating war as to whether what country has the most scumbags per capita.
> Scumbags are scumbags no matter the nationality.
> 
> The point I was ineloquently trying to make is that you need an art such as Wing Chun with its practical , economical , relatively easy to do movements for the people that are not particularly athletic , maybe elderly , might be of small build , might have a disability etc etc.
> ...



"The Hood" is "The Hood", no matter the country, state/province, county, parrish, city, town, or village....and I totally agree scumbags aren't a monopoly just here in the USA.  

I wish Oz was closer.  I'd love to share a pint and talk Wing Chun with you so you could really see that I am not being negative or degrading.  Intention is HARD to imply over internet boards and I do type a lot (babble???  ) for fear of being misunderstood, but often times my mind is faster than my mouth which is LIGHT YEARS ahead of my typing fingers! :uhyeah:


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## mook jong man (Apr 10, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> "The Hood" is "The Hood", no matter the country, state/province, county, parrish, city, town, or village....and I totally agree scumbags aren't a monopoly just here in the USA.
> 
> I wish Oz was closer. I'd love to share a pint and talk Wing Chun with you so you could really see that I am not being negative or degrading. Intention is HARD to imply over internet boards and I do type a lot (babble???  ) for fear of being misunderstood, but often times my mind is faster than my mouth which is LIGHT YEARS ahead of my typing fingers! :uhyeah:


 
No worries mate , I can see your just hungry for info on good  Wing Chun.

But that is the Brits that drink from pints , over here in Australia we drink beer in a glass called a schooner or a smaller glass called a middy.

But since I gave up alcohol about 3 years ago you would have to settle for me buying you a beer and I would have an orange juice like a big girly man.


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## dungeonworks (Apr 11, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> No worries mate , I can see your just hungry for info on good  Wing Chun.
> 
> But that is the Brits that drink from pints , over here in Australia we drink beer in a glass called a schooner or a smaller glass called a middy.
> 
> But since I gave up alcohol about 3 years ago you would have to settle for me buying you a beer and I would have an orange juice like a big girly man.



See what I get for trying to be Mr. International???   Since you don't drink alcohol, maybe I could turn you on to a Soda (we call soda "Pop" here in Michigan, USA) made here in Michigan called Vernors then.  They even make diet if you don't want the calories of regular, but man it is good for a beer substitute!  You could bring that spread you Aussie's put on toast....I forget the name but an Aussie fellow Airbrush Artist told be about it and it is a staple I guess in the Aussie diet.

....but if OJ is what you want, my Mum lives in Florida!  Can't get better OJ here in the states than some good ol' Florida OJ! :ultracool

(....and this written from a guy with a bottle of Smithwick's Irish Ale in his coolie!  )


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## mook jong man (Apr 11, 2010)

When I did used to drink , I didn't mind some American beers like Samuel Adams or Miller they had a nice crisp refreshing taste compared to a lot of the Aussie beers .

The spread you are talking about is called Vegemite , we grow up on it here , its made from yeast extract , a by product of beer brewing.

We like it , but most foreigners reckon it looks and tastes like axel grease.
Your only supposed to smear a bit of it on your toast or sandwich , but a lot of Yanks trying it the first time have spread it on thick like it was Peanut butter or Nutella and then almost throw up when they find out how bitter it tastes.


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## bully (Apr 11, 2010)

You two should be tourist representatives for your areas!! Gangs, knives, guns...sounds great

Marmite is nicer, Vegemite tastes funny.

Im off for a pint.

Don't you drink pitchers in America? I did when I was last there.


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## mook jong man (Apr 11, 2010)

bully said:


> You two should be tourist representatives for your areas!! Gangs, knives, guns...sounds great
> 
> Marmite is nicer, Vegemite tastes funny.
> 
> ...


 
I think its pretty typical of all big cities these days Bully , but once you get away from the cities and go bush you find the pace of life a lot slower and the people generally a lot nicer.

You know when Vegemite first come out , it was called Parwill and its direct competition was Marmite.

So the ad campaign was " If Marmite.......then Parwill "
Just a bit of trivia for you.


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## bully (Apr 11, 2010)

Yeah I know mate, I liked it when I was in Oz. Didnt stay long enough but done the usual tourist thing, surfing at Noosa, dive the barrier reef, Whitsundays and that. Was on a whistlestop tour as was meeting my wife to be and her mates, I was traveling alone in NZ and popped over to see them.

If things continue to go downhill here, we may be heading your way for good:ultracool

Got 6 months to decide/find a job here then we are looking to emigrate.

We get more points for Perth though mate :-(


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 19, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> Actually, in the early UFC's Royce Gracie used one style successfully against larger opponents!  But I do see what you are saying. I still don't get why Wing Chun is not looked at for ground striking though. Just the basic punching alone works nearly like magic from on your back, side control, top control...wherever. In my Wing Chun Novice opinion, ChiSau comes into play here more than anyother spot. I know I have been hung to dry for the mear mention of using BJJ as a supplement to Wing Chun, but man, roll for five minutes with even light contact striking and it becomes strikingly evident!
> 
> A few posts ago, you mentioned some UFC guys talking about traditional martial arts. The majority of them came from these arts. Liddell trained under and has his black belt in Koei-Kan-Karate-Do (the same style I trained in and consider my base) before meeting and training with Hawaiin Kempo expert John Hackleman. Bisping trained Tae Kwon Do I believe as did David Louaso, Stephen Bonnar, and others. Sammy Barek claims Wing Chun lineage but says he uses little of it in the cage. Dan Hardy is a Shaolin Kung Fu stylist originally and even lived and trained at some Chinese Temple for a few months with the monks. Machida is Shotokan Karate as Im sure you know, Vitor Belfort has been training Shotokan for the last few years and you can see it in his movement and guard. The list goes on....but the common denominator is that many elements and techniques of ALL styles represented in MMA have been removed to suit the rules. Some styles have more than can be used, but know that even Karate and TKD (not to minimize them) have knee, downed opponent, eyeball, and throat strikes in the CQC techniques.
> 
> MMA is MIXED MARTIAL ARTS for a reason because NO STYLE alone fits the rule set. Gone are the first 5 UFC's where it was style vs style match-ups and no one pure style is presently dominating nor are they even represented anymore....and I do miss the style vs style match-ups dearly! It was topic for debate many of late nights as a kid growing up!


 
I know the point you're trying to make, but what we are saying is that many 'traditional arts' are much more geared up to the cage than others. Wing chun is a close quarter art working on the ability to freely mould from one shape to the other. The cage takes away this transitioning. Im sure there are ways you could use wing chun in the cage, but the point I always raise (and get shot down) is that you do need other arts to supplement it. Kevin Chan, who is proficient in numerous arts including BJJ still insists that he would use his wing chun in the street. Not because he cant box etc, but because he knows that wing chun is far more efficient at street level. 

Certainly there are ways of using wing chun on the ground, but you do need a grappling art to help (ie get into a side mount and then use close quarter elbows etc). Chi sao is a drill/spar. You can use elements of it in fights, but you cant use the actual poon sao motions. What you take away from chi sao is the sticking elements, movement, flow, structure etc

You are right that Royce only used to use one art when he entered the cage (as well as several other fighters - I think Dan Severn only used wrestling?). Yet this was the beginning of UFC where rules were limited

There is actually footage of wing chun vs knockdown karate guys (some good, some bad) on youtube. I train knockdown karate, and know that in a streetfight, a lot of the guys would be limited in positions like a clinch or on the ground or very closeup. In an intermediate to long distance, they rule. Again, it is just what format the competition is in

At the end of the day, there are a lot of fighters who have used wing chun and/or know of it and its effectiveness

If you are American, you have people like Sifu Grados who isnt bad at all in relation to the cross training aspect of wing chun. In London you have people like Kevin Chan, Alan Orr and James Sinclair who are very open minded on these topics and whose wing chun is extremely good

My own testimony should be good enough for those MMA nutters who whinge about chunners not entering the cage. Ive done it. Ive done knockdowns. Ive done open competitions in relation to self defence and won gold. There is nothing you cant do if you put yoru mind to it. Its just that sometimes, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole doesnt work


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