# Let's get this started...



## jks9199 (Jan 25, 2008)

OK... how many of you all want to out yourself?

In terms of defensive tactics...  How many of you have found your martial arts training to help?  Anyone in an agency that encourages outside martial arts training?  How about discourages it?

Personally -- I think my martial arts training has informed my DT choices, and given me that extra bit of confidence when I'm dealing with a dirtball.


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## Drac (Jan 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> OK... how many of you all want to out yourself?
> 
> In terms of defensive tactics... How many of you have found your martial arts training to help? Anyone in an agency that encourages outside martial arts training? How about discourages it?


 
The new Chief at my part time gig is all for training..The full time job is another story...Most of the ones that discourage it are the reminants of the good-ole-boys network that do not believe that "kar-rotty" is important and that NOTHING is better that a loaded sidearm...



jks9199 said:


> Personally -- I think my martial arts training has informed my DT choices, and given me that extra bit of confidence when I'm dealing with a dirtball.


 
Yes...100% true...


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## terryl965 (Jan 25, 2008)

I would have to agree with your last statement


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## exile (Jan 25, 2008)

Every bit of extra firepower in your arsenal is valuable, no? I'd have thought that even desk bureaucrats would get the general picture?

The South Korean military has proven in two horrifically dirty wars just how valuable their H2H combat skills were on the battlefield in stark life-or-death situations, due to their superior MA skills; I've posted many times how the Viet Cong field command was sufficiently impressed with that ability to direct their fighters to not engage with the Koreans if at all possible for that very reason. (Documentation supplied, eagerly, upon request.) I can't see how anyone could miss the point: you may not _have_ the firearm you really need available to you at the critical moment. What do you do then? Isn't the relatively small expense of training your valued LEO personnel in effective H2H techniques worth the savings in reducing additional risk to them?


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## jks9199 (Jan 25, 2008)

I've actually heard of more than one department that formally DISCOURAGES officers from seeking outside martial arts training!  I suppose the argument is that someone may use a technique that hasn't been vetted as an appropriate or approved use of force -- or would attend the classic, sport-oriented mall front McDojo.  But I don't get it...  I know that my martial arts training gave me tools to respond with better control and more effect, as well as the simple familiarity with being hit that many younger folk today don't get anywhere...


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## exile (Jan 26, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I've actually heard of more than one department that formally DISCOURAGES officers from seeking outside martial arts training!  I suppose the argument is that someone may use a technique that hasn't been vetted as an appropriate or approved use of force -- or would attend the classic, sport-oriented mall front McDojo.  *But I don't get it...  I know that my martial arts training gave me tools to respond with better control and more effect, as well as the simple familiarity with being hit that many younger folk today don't get anywhere...*



Exactly... and I've read Drac and other LEOs saying the same things on many occasions. I have to say, I don't understand that CYA-style argument that you've imagined coming down from the desk jockeys doesn't make much sense (though I can easily picture some PD spin-doctor coming up with something along those lines). Make a mistake with a firearm in a tense, and ambiguous situation and there is going to be very little left of the person who's been shot. Make a mistake applying a H2H combat technique to someone who turns out to have been innocent (or at least, not very dangerous), and most likely you'll still have someone with a pulse left, even if a not-very-happy someone. 

I just can't picture the reasoning of someone who'd rather see you use maximum force in a situation where you might be able to get away with much less. One thing I've noticed from various people on the board who are professionals in law enforcement is that they often talk about situations in which they really don't see deadly force as appropriate, if there's an effective alternative. I'd be willing to be that the majority of altercations that LEOs have to intervene in are of this type. So why the reluctance to train your force with a full range of response options? If it doesn't warrant a Glock 9, why force it up to that level just because you'd rather do other things with the money than provide officers with the resources to keep it at a lower level of force?


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## shesulsa (Jan 26, 2008)

exile said:


> I just can't picture the reasoning of someone who'd rather see you use maximum force in a situation where you might be able to get away with much less. One thing I've noticed from various people on the board who are professionals in law enforcement is that they often talk about situations in which they really don't see deadly force as appropriate, if there's an effective alternative. I'd be willing to be that the majority of altercations that LEOs have to intervene in are of this type. So why the reluctance to train your force with a full range of response options? If it doesn't warrant a Glock 9, why force it up to that level just because you'd rather do other things with the money than provide officers with the resources to keep it at a lower level of force?


THIS is the most essential argument facing issues of force today.  I also think we need to open this discussion up in a respectful fashion to improve morale, trust, service, cooperation.

For those of you who have found your martial arts training helpful and useful, I'd like to know what you feel specifically - either as a category or an approach, whatever you want to offer - is lacking, missing or needs improvement in your official LEO training.  The generality above is given, but the money question is *how do you get there?*  What does it mean to you?

Is it:

Weapons retention?
Controlled cuffing techniques?
Effective takedowns with minimal injury?
Effective h2h contain and control techniques?
Simple but essential angles and approaches for make-or-break techniques?


YOU tell us.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 26, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I've actually heard of more than one department that formally DISCOURAGES officers from seeking outside martial arts training! I suppose the argument is that someone may use a technique that hasn't been vetted as an appropriate or approved use of force -- or would attend the classic, sport-oriented mall front McDojo. But I don't get it... I know that my martial arts training gave me tools to respond with better control and more effect, as well as the simple familiarity with being hit that many younger folk today don't get anywhere...


 
Unfortunately the above is true in regards to many police department's.  Locally we have one department that trains and certifies it's officer's and reserves every three months. (Firearms, PPCT & Defensive Tactics, CPR, etc.)  We are working out details now to incorporate IRT into their program as the Sergent/training officer is a student and friend of mine.  They are the best trained officer's in the area and it does show.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Some of the other departments in the area are just not interested in training and it is discouraged.  However, several officer's do like to get some extra skill sets on the side.

As to using my skills during arrests.  I would always say that they came in handy and even more important possibly that the skill sets was the confidence that I had gained from the training!  This confidence that I had always helped my partner's as well.


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## redfang (Jan 26, 2008)

We're in the process of getting regular trainings going in our police/fire training center. It'll be mostly mma oriented, bjj, kickbox, tkd, and a lot of circuit training and conditioning. Till now, folks have been pretty much on their own, but a lot of us who train and a local school have been given the okay to organize somehat, use city facilities and open it up to all who are interested. Looking forward to it.


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## blackxpress (Jan 26, 2008)

Disclaimer: I'm not actually in LE but have trained under LE self defense trainers for the past two years.  That said, I can't imagine why any dept. would DISCOURAGE training but I know they do.  My former Sensei was a retired cop from S. Fla. and had been a self defense trainer for various agencies down there for years.  When he moved to N. Ga. he went to the local Sheriff's office and asked who did their training.  He was told they didn't train and that the Sheriff didn't really believe in it.  Seems rather silly to me.  Some of those deputies could use the workout, at the very least.  As I said, I'm not in LE but I'm pretty sure you can't legally just go around shooting anyone who fails to comply with your orders.  When you tell a guy to turn around and place his hands on the car, what do you do if he wants to fight instead and you don't have any backup?  The last thing you want is to end up rolling around on the ground with some drunk trying to get your gun.  Most of the LE self defense stuff that I've trained in is based in Jujitsu.  It's designed to quickly gain submission and control.  Seems to me every officer would profit greatly from such knowledge.


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## Drac (Jan 26, 2008)

One of the biggest problems concerning training comes from a lot of the old time coppers who *ALWAYS* tell me and the younger officers that they fought some black belt and beat the chicken soup outta him...My arguments that they have *NEVER* encountered a TRUE black belt falls on deaf ears..It become a rallying cry for those who don't want to do anything...

I had one of my Sgts tell me that he was too old to engage in fistacuffs, he'd just shoot me...My answer is IF you can get your gun...My department doesn't restrict anyone who would like to train, the problem is it would interfere with their bowling, darts of fantasy football...Priorities...


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## LawDog (Jan 29, 2008)

Drac,
As a LEO trainer that was a thorn in my side when teaching Defensive Tactics to a few of the older, bigger veteran officers. Their response would usually be,
that martial arts stuff is just a bunch of crap. I just pull out my night stick and clobber them.
Many of the newer officers will state that they kicked the crap out of a black belt. After a little research I would usually find out that they had some assistance in doing this with either or the combination of,
* OC / Pepper Mace,
* Tazer,
* a few fellow officers,
* a blind side football charge,
* they had their light body armor on,
* held a flash light in their eyes just prior to their response,
* the B.B. was a 90 lb weakling and they were a body builder.
* they we not of a true black belt level.
There are many officer's who take their training seriously. You can usually spot one who does, he / she will be the one who is always cool and calm during any situation.


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## Drac (Jan 29, 2008)

LawDog said:


> Drac,
> As a LEO trainer that was a thorn in my side when teaching Defensive Tactics to a few of the older, bigger veteran officers. Their response would usually be,
> that martial arts stuff is just a bunch of crap. I just pull out my night stick and clobber them.
> Many of the newer officers will state that they kicked the crap out of a black belt. After a little research I would usually find out that they had some assistance in doing this with either or the combination of,
> ...


 
You speak the truth...There are only 3 in my dept that I know of, one I teach with and the other is a desk jockey....Some of the newer guys want to learn and I tell them to keep submitting requests to their Sgt and Lt and maybe it will happen...I just *HOPE* that the department listens to me and gets me a class of people that *WANT *to train and not the ones who show up because their Sgt or Lt say they have to...


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 30, 2008)

im not in that situation, but I was asked to give lessons on something durring high school and it was great to have the people there that wanted to learn but the people that were forced to be there we always a pain in the *** and I wanted to throw them out the window

B


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 30, 2008)

LawDog said:


> Drac,
> As a LEO trainer that was a thorn in my side when teaching Defensive Tactics to a few of the older, bigger veteran officers. Their response would usually be,
> that martial arts stuff is just a bunch of crap. I just pull out my night stick and clobber them.
> Many of the newer officers will state that they kicked the crap out of a black belt. After a little research I would usually find out that they had some assistance in doing this with either or the combination of,
> ...


 


Drac said:


> You speak the truth...There are only 3 in my dept that I know of, one I teach with and the other is a desk jockey....Some of the newer guys want to learn and I tell them to keep submitting requests to their Sgt and Lt and maybe it will happen...I just *HOPE* that the department listens to me and gets me a class of people that *WANT *to train and not the ones who show up because their Sgt or Lt say they have to...


 
I think that many just do not have the drive and are obviously not shown the importance from their supervisors.  When it is made a priority by the Chief then it will get down case in point the one local department that trains all the time.  Unfortunately many think that, "hey I went through the academy and that is enough."  Or if they are old timer's and I have encountered this locally myself where one 55ish overweight out of shape Sgt. said to me, "I do not have time for any of that. (as he patted his side arm)  Plus my knee bother's me when I train and I do not really think that anyone can take me down."  Now he is working in small town USA and is mostly a desk jockey but every now and then stuff does happen and he is woefully under prepared.  

Now those officer's that do train on their own.  Well they are in general better trained overall and have a mind set to do a really good job.


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think that many just do not have the drive and are obviously not shown the importance from their supervisors. When it is made a priority by the Chief then it will get down case in point the one local department that trains all the time. Unfortunately many think that, "hey I went through the academy and that is enough." Or if they are old timer's and I have encountered this locally myself where one 55ish overweight out of shape Sgt. said to me, "I do not have time for any of that. (as he patted his side arm) Plus my knee bother's me when I train and I do not really think that anyone can take me down." Now he is working in small town USA and is mostly a desk jockey but every now and then stuff does happen and he is woefully under prepared.
> 
> Now those officer's that do train on their own. Well they are in general better trained overall and have a mind set to do a really good job.


 
Good post Brian....I had another Sgt tell me that the skills he aquired in the 15 years ago are enough...Well when ya just stand around and give orders ya don't need skills..I always point out to the other officers that I am 54 and carrying 50 extra pounds and I smoke..I have a banged up knee and had both legs broken and was pinned back together..They wouldn't last 2 minutes with me...I train whenever I can...


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## LawDog (Jan 30, 2008)

Generally officers will not train unless they are getting paid overtime. Police Administration does not like to spend money on something that does not generate money back to the city / township. They will spend lots of money for training on things like radar, lidar, radar, lidar, radar, lidar, on board lap tops, used for running vehicle reg's and license info.(more income).


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## kailat (Jan 30, 2008)

I jumping late into this conversation;  I am a special deputy-reserve officer for the city of Muncie, In. (yes i know the infamous "armed and famous reality tv show") on past that part.

 But i too work part time security for the hospital and we have to alot of time restrain patients, and sometimes even visitors and on the rare instance that it does happen staff.  (go figure)

 But or cheif (also a close friend of mine) does allow and expect outside training.  I help him from time to time doing special training operations.  We teach DT's throughout our county and various other locations.  Ever since learning the DT's program ie. PPCT and the varius other methods of control techniques I can greatly respect the time that was put into it for the many "lazy" officers who do not wish to train on a regular basis.  I don't know about other depts, but within our own there are many.

 I actually got into law enforcement to teach defensive tactics to officers and to help better the dept and officer safety program.  It's so very hard to come in and have a program that teaches along side the PPCT course to officers that's seen all in the streets and have had to use deadly force or other issues.  They already have that john wayne mentality and nothng you can show them is worth thier time.  They do the mandatory training w/ a grain of salt goof off and move on.  I'd say usually on any given class I instruct I get alot of OOOH's and Ahhh's and thats cool but I could never do that!!  Well its alot of time in training, you can't do knife disarms and or even do evasive footwork and movements with minimal couple of hour training.  You have to have awareness and most of all "COORDINATION" man i've not seen a larger group of uncoordinated individuals than I have within my dept.  I say that w/ great laughter its comical watchng them trip over each other.  But I've been along side of them in many instances and they perform above and beyond in reality.  So no fault there.

 I just try to stay on path w/ what our standard prgram is taught and go outside the grey areas a bit, not to confuse or just throw a ton of info at them all at once.  We usually hold 2 to 3times a year DT classes so i pick up where we left off and round from there.

Generally, we take "big" guy and rough him up a bit to prove a purpose though, its been a good silence technique when the class gets unruley and out of hand.  

 some things I've really put alot of emphasis on in my own personal "hands-on" happenings is the joint locks, take downs, pressure points.  Whenever I have to detain an unruley patient, or anyone for that matter ie. perp, suspect whoever I experiment alot  ; )  I usually get positive reinforcement from negative situations in most instances.


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2008)

kailat said:


> IGenerally, we take "big" guy and rough him up a bit to prove a purpose though, its been a good silence technique when the class gets unruley and out of hand.
> 
> some things I've really put alot of emphasis on in my own personal "hands-on" happenings is the joint locks, take downs, pressure points. Whenever I have to detain an unruley patient, or anyone for that matter ie. perp, suspect whoever I experiment alot ; ) I usually get positive reinforcement from negative situations in most instances.


 
As large as my department is I always get the manpower requirments are too low to schedule a training class...If I roughed up one of the big guy/big mouth types they would run upstairs and file grievence...


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2008)

LawDog said:


> Generally officers will not train unless they are getting paid overtime. Police Administration does not like to spend money on something that does not generate money back to the city / township. They will spend lots of money for training on things like radar, lidar, radar, lidar, radar, lidar, on board lap tops, used for running vehicle reg's and license info.(more income).


 
Yep...They have dumped a small fortune into their mini-SWAT team..But buy some training equipment?? Don't hold your breath...


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## Drac (Feb 1, 2008)

Nothing will aggravate me more than hearing one of these older coppers whine how they got hurt once when they attended training at some local dojo, so they don't need any of that "Kar-otty crap"..It mostly seems to be the men that whine and complain.. I attended a class once where a pretty female officer asked me to be her training partner and we pounded the crap out of each other for the whole day..The Grandmaster was a little shocked to see rolling around on the floor with this female and asked me if "I had lost my mind"..I explained that I was what she would probably encounter on the streets during a call and *NOT* the smaller female that they had her partnered with..


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