# hi iam new



## blackbelt4me (Apr 14, 2004)

hello,
   my name is chris and iam a 1 dan in soong moo kwan hapkido
and have been training for the past 5 yrs
   i hope to give some advice and help out my fellow martial artist`s
  :asian:


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## Shogun (Apr 14, 2004)

I am new, too. I used to post at fightauthority.com but the forum change became too confusing. I Study mainly Japanese martial arts, but have an interest in Hapkido. I know it came from Takeda's Aikijutsu, so I think it might work well for me. (I study Bujutsu)


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 14, 2004)

Welcome to both of you. I hope you both will feel at home here.
 Ask what questions you will .
 Chris would you tell us a little about soong moo kwan hapkido I am not fimilar with this system.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 14, 2004)

Sung Moo Kwan is recognized by both the KHF and the Kido Hae as being the first Hapkido school. It was began by Doju Ji Han Jae, and passed on the Hwang Duk Kyu. Master Julian Lim was appointed head by Hwang Duk Kyu, and that appointment recognized by Kido and KHF. It is the Kwan that I am a member of, and enjoying the training it puts forth.

It means school of martial accomplishment and is romanized several ways. It is not to be confused with the TKD system, which if memory serves means Pine Tree School, but I could be off on that point.

Hope this helps.


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## blackbelt4me (Apr 15, 2004)

thx`s for the welcome guys
   shogun kinda explained it to a point
  basicly like aikido,in my stlye we also have kumdo=korean sword
  short staff defense
    bo
   cane<iam doin right now
   naunchaks,hard to spell
pressure point strikes
    grappling
   it`s i at least think a great all around martial art
   i still enjoy it and will never give up my training


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## Chris from CT (Apr 15, 2004)

blackbelt4me said:
			
		

> hello,
> my name is chris and iam a 1 dan in soong moo kwan hapkido...



Welcome aboard Chris.  
 :asian:


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## blackbelt4me (Apr 15, 2004)

:asian: thx`s


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## iron_ox (Apr 15, 2004)

Hello,

I live in Chicago also, where do you train, out of interest?

Kevin Sogor


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## blackbelt4me (Apr 15, 2004)

oh wow   well i train in westchester
   at lions tae kwon do hapkido
   master jung kyu cheon
 are you close to me?? 
   i live in cicero
where do you train at???


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## cali_tkdbruin (Apr 15, 2004)

blackbelt4me said:
			
		

> hello,
> my name is chris and iam a 1 dan in soong moo kwan hapkido
> and have been training for the past 5 yrs
> i hope to give some advice and help out my fellow martial artist`s
> :asian:



Welcome *blackbelt4me*, I too am a Korean martial artist. We'll be looking forward to your input...  :asian:


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## blackbelt4me (Apr 15, 2004)

just ask
i will be glad to help:asian:


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 16, 2004)

Cali,

What kind of TKD do you do? Are you WTF, ITF or other? How long have you been practicing?

Black,

Who do you study with? I have found a noticeable lack of Sung Moo Kwan guys here in the US. I did a google search and only came up with one school, but a busload of SMK TKD... though I also did not go through all the pages, as it was some god-aweful number.


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## fawkesburning (Apr 16, 2004)

The old KHA is now the Korean New Martial Arts Hapkido Federation. The schools outside of Korea are represented by Jin Pal Hapkido Federation.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 16, 2004)

Also, the Simmudo people are connected. I don't know the exact relationship with them. I can say that the KHA is actually the KHF. There is ample history to show that, so if someone tells you otherwise, just tell them to do the research. All you have to do is run a google search with the following:
korea hapkido federation, korea hapkido association, history


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## fawkesburning (Apr 16, 2004)

The KHA run by Hwang Duk Kyu is the one I was refering to.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 17, 2004)

I understand that... but I am clarifying to you that the KHA was actually started by Master Ji, Han Jae who was his teacher. It changed its name circa 1980, but only in English. I have no problem with the new name because it is not misleading. There is also another KHF which is misleading in English but not in Korean. Dae Han means Korea but so does Min Kook. Just in different ways. So the translation is the same. There is an explanation here: http://hapkidokorea.org/english/user_faq.php

I had heard that there have actually been a number of suits between the KHF, and so-called KHA. Master Hal Whalen was actually certified by the KHA before it became the KHF. He would be a good resource to contact for more information.

The reason I point this is out is for clarity. Far too many organizations and teaches do not look into claims enough to realize they have been duped, or in some cases, are simply unaware of history. We owe it to students to pass on accurate history, so in order to do that we must research.


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## fawkesburning (Apr 17, 2004)

tomato tomahto I was just pointing out that your master's master (lim->Hwang)is now affliated with Kim Jin Pal. I don't care if they call themselves the Super Duper Korean Hapkido Guys. Dosn't affect my life. I just thought that you might want  to hook up with them since you were lamenting about the  kwan.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 17, 2004)

Dear Sir,

I am an Oh Dan in Sung Moo Kwan. I have never lamented about my Kwan, though I appreciate the concern. I think you must have me mixed up with someone else.


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## fawkesburning (Apr 17, 2004)

<<have found a noticeable lack of Sung Moo Kwan guys here in the US. I did a google search and only came up with one school,>>

Mabe lamenting was too strong


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 17, 2004)

I think so. Lament implies plaintive, wistful, or dissatisfaction. I made an observation. There are only a few of us. I don't fit in the lament category. Personally, I like being in a small Kwan.


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## iron_ox (Apr 17, 2004)

Hello all,

Hey Fawkesburning, whenever someone opens a comment with "I'm an Oh Dan" just ignore the rest - who cares what rank you are Clay!  This guy has put four posts here, all with the best intent and you want to pull your rank crap...

Frankly, there are lots of very old Sung Moo Kwan people in North America that predate Mr. Clay's lineage - they are just not all on "Google" which all of you know is the home all all great martial research - but hey since your teacher is the keeper of Sung Moo Kwan he should know them all right?

Fawkesburning, you keep questioning and exploring - right or wrong, there is no mega-protocal here  - and the self important schmucks who think there is should simply be laughed at - ask, question and learn, these rank pullers all have stuff to hide somewhere...

Kevin Sogor


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## fawkesburning (Apr 17, 2004)

The funny part is that I was trying to be helpful by pointing out that there are people connected to the Kwan here in the US. Hwang and Kim both studied under JI. They both have 9th dans from Ji. They have aligned their 2 organizations. So... your master Lim's master Hwang has a representative in the United States in Kim Jin Pal.

And Frank, the SinMoo Guys are connected because that is Ji's Kwan. Same teaching new name.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 17, 2004)

Actually, Master Ji says that Sung Moo Kwan is different. That is what he reportedly told some Sin Moo guys. It was my understanding that he indicated that Sin Moo is "more advanced". I cannot speak to that because I did not hear it.

Hwang Duk Kyu passed reign of the SMK over to Master Julian Lim, who has the appropriate paperwork. Irrespective of who Master Hwang's representative may be, I answer only to Master Lim. He is recognized by Hwang Duk Kyu, the Korea Hapkido Federation and the Kido Hae (Korea Kido) as the Kwanjangnim of Sung Moo Kwan. You can view the certificates at www.jlim.net in the galleries.

All I indicated is that when I searched for it, I found only one school using the keyword Sung Moo Kwan.


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## fawkesburning (Apr 17, 2004)

Look Frank I don't care who you are buying your next rank from. I just thought that you would perhaps like to work out with a master where you actually live. 

<<I answer only to Master Lim.>> What are we in some cheesy Kung Fu movie?!


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 17, 2004)

Ok first off, I didn't insult you, or your organization. Don't insult me. I didn't buy my rank from anyone. I was evaluated two weeks ago for six hours.

If you want to actually talk about SMK, great. But don't start making personal attacks. I am not, nor will I tolerate it. I have spent 25 years working on getting to this point.

As far as Master Lim goes, you are correct, I answer only to Master Lim, in orther words, I am not a member of any other organization and don't answer to them.

As far as training with another Master, that was not offered. I was not invited. I am planning on training with some Sin Moo guys later in the year, because I was invited by them to attend. I know you are not aware of my personal situation, but I wont be able to attend any events until later in the year, thanks to a rapidly approaching due date. I am missing the first American KHF instructor's course because of it. I am hoping to attend some events later in the year though. If your organization has some public events later in the year, then perhaps I will be able to attend. I'm always up for good training.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 17, 2004)

Kevin,

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I am not pulling rank. I am identifying that I have a level of proficiency and that I am happy to be in a small Kwan. To me, being in a small kwan means that rank is not easy to attain, or it would be larger. Does that logic not make sense?

Irrespective of lineage, all SMK people are related, just as we are related to our Sin Moo cousins. Argueably, we are cousins to all modern schools of Hapkido, as some say they derive from SMK. I am not willing to take that step.

I am well aware that I am a junior to some, and a senior to others. To some I am an excellent Hapkido player, and to others merely adequate. There are those that I would like to be proficient enough to be able to walk in their shadow. There is no shame in being at any stage of the path. The important thing is that we are on the path.


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## fawkesburning (Apr 17, 2004)

First I'm not a member of either organization. So I'm not trying to insult any organization. You - I'm starting to think  are a real jack ***. I was just trying to be freindly with the original post. Hwang's KHA was active under that name until 2002 or 3. Lim was a part of that Org. There are people from that org in the US. That's all I was saying. But you apparently just like to hear yourself talk. If you are the Frank Clay that was associated with Hackworth then yes IMO you bought your way into hapkido. You suspect that its true (won't fully admit it to yourself) that's why you are so defensive. You were a Tang Soo Do instructor got caught up with Hackworth, He offered  you rank, you took it and then he burned you. LAY IT OUT FRANK - admission is the first step to recovery. If Master Lim is willing to justify your rank so be it. Clean slate. Its ok we all make mistakes.  But why you have to go to Malaysia to find someone to train under is beyond me. There are plenty of excellent Masters in the US.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 17, 2004)

Before this turns ugly, can I slip a quick question in here? 

Is the Kwan (Sung Mu) that is being discussed the same Sung Mu Kwan Hapkido started by Ji in 1957 in Seoul or are we talking about a tradition that co-incidentally has the same name? My understanding was that with the coup in 1961 and Ji's fall from grace the original Sung Mu Kwan was disbanded. Since we are not using Korean or Chinese characters I must rely on the English tranliteration and am getting a little confused. Julian Lim apparently has identified his approach as Song Mu Kwan Hapkido but I don't know what the lineage is nor what the relationship with the Hapkido tradition. Unless you guys are going to publish scorecards so the rest of us can keep the players straight, a little help would be appreciated.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Cthulhu (Apr 17, 2004)

Moderator Warning.

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-


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## Disco (Apr 19, 2004)

Question, primarily for Mr. Clay, but anyone with knowledge of Kukkiwon certification. I reviewed the site of Master Lim and looked at all the certificates he presented. The only certificate I was familiar with was the TKD Kukkiwon. Now I ask this question under the format that perhaps certificates awarded abroad (not in the U.S.) are different from those awarded here. Master Lims Kukkiwon certificate is totally different from any that I have received and those of my GrandMaster (who is Korean). Can anyone address this question? Thank you in advance for any information.

 :asian:


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## glad2bhere (Apr 19, 2004)

I thought this whole Kukkiwon cert issue was something akin to the recent split between the World Kido Assn and the Kidohae. By this I mean that a quick shift in politics caused an abrupt shift in who would stand behind what paper and who wouldn't. No wonder most of the people who practice KMA in Korea are kids. What adults would put up with the constant twists and turns as personalities jockey for power, influence and recognition?!? I mean we have enough of that right here in the States. Just look at all the recent stuff about "kwan" recognition!  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Apr 19, 2004)

I wouldn't know why the World Kido Assn or the Kidohae would have anything to do with Kukkiwon certifications. I was under the assumption that the Kukkiwon was the sole authority for WTF certifications.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 19, 2004)

Oooopppsss---

Sorry. I was afraid that wouldn't come out very well. What I meant was that I had come to understand that people thought that the policies of the Kukkiwon were pretty much set in concrete and what I think I am hearing is that there is variance in policy depending on time and the personalities involved. I mentioned the WKA/Kidohae only because they were a clear example of what happens when this occurs.  Sorry for the confusion. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Apr 19, 2004)

I was also under the understanding that Kukkiwon policy was very strict. But what has transpired in just the last few months, within the KMA's in general, gives one reason to pause and ponder. 

It would be very helpful if Kukkiwon knowledgeable people would comment on the certificate displayed on Mr. Lims site. As I stated prior, I have never seen a certificate from the Kukkiwon that looks like that. Just wondering if they issue different certs for different countries. I don't think they do, but verification from other's would be appropriate.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 19, 2004)

Disco,

Sorry, I cannot address this question for you. I am not involved with Kukkiwon Taekwondo. I can say this... in Malaysia, martial arts are government regulated. if something is not right, there are serious issues.

I have found Master Lim to be very open when asked questions. Of course treat him in the manner that you would want to be treated (respectful). His contact information can be found at www.jlim.net.

I wish I could help more, but I cannot.


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## Chris from CT (Apr 19, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> By this I mean that a quick shift in politics caused an abrupt shift in who would stand behind what paper and who wouldn't. No wonder most of the people who practice KMA in Korea are kids. What adults would put up with the constant twists and turns as personalities jockey for power, influence and recognition?!?



This is the stuff I get fed up about and I am sure many others do also.  Whatever happened to having "what you know or can do" being the most important thing.   Some one says a certificate is no good and people get all freaked out.  So what?!  Can the person perform to the level of what they say their rank is?  That says volumes more about a person than some piece of expensive wallpaper hanging for people to go "oooo and ahhh" over.   If you cant walk the walk, then all there is, is just a joke hanging on the wall for people to see.

I can understand how having certification can be a necessary part of the martial arts.  In some countries you need to have government-recognized certification in order teach law enforcement or military personnel, etc.  But we do not have any government regulation nor does any organization govern over the entire martial art that I practice, so in my opinion certificates are worthless here.   _(Not to mention that here in the US, many adults and children are just given rank without the ability or knowledge)_

At my dojang I tell my students the certificate I give them means nothing outside of these walls.  I tell them straight out, what matters is what they have learned and what they can realistically do.  Bottom line.

All Im saying is that, if you find merit in what you are learning then that is whats important.  Personalities come and go from our lives but the knowledge that we take stays with us and makes us who we are.

Good night.  :hammer:


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## glad2bhere (Apr 20, 2004)

Dear Chris: 

In the final analysis I know you are right. Taken a step farther I could also say that I don't need to care what people do or what they say about themselves. Then I think back and I wonder how different things would have been had people pulled together a bit better regarding that con-artist in Florida, ya' know? Maybe some perspective is in order, I don't know. 

1.) OK, so the certs aren't what counts, and lets say that you are right that it is what a person does that really matters. Fine, I can buy that. Now when exactly is it that people are ever caused to show what it is that they can do? Absent such a demonstration of actual skill a person could represent themselves as anything at all, yes? And the consuming public doesn't know any better, right? I mean lets face it. A lot of the people who were taken in GOT taken in because they KNEW they were dealing with a charlatan who wouldn't ask too many questions---for a fee. Now what about the people who never had that chance?

2.) And what do we owe our art? Its certainly not up to me to single-handedly safeguard the KMA, is it? Or DO I owe my art SOME responsibility that impedes entrepeneurs from misrepresenting Korean traditions? I know I CAN sit by quietly and say its none of my business what goes on outside of my school, but SHOULD I? May I sit quietly while folks play fast and loose with language, terminology, offices, rank and institutions?

3.) Had people spoken-up prior to many of the recent problems, would things have still gone the way they did?  Nobody wanted to say anything about Choi and the ITF (they still don't) nor the recent financial embarrassments, nor the Olympic matters, and noone can pretend they didn't know it was going on. Everybody was oh-so-loyal to the leadership, but what did people owe the arts they represented? 

You are absolutely right, Chris. I could give a happy G-D about the paper and the ranks and the standings. What concerns me are the fractured values that allow people to represent themselves as they do and see nothing wrong with it. In a lifestyle that champions the cause of accountability, courage, integrity and accepting life on Lifes' terms, these people are cheap embarrassments at best; prostitutes at worst. Now who do we see about that?

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Apr 20, 2004)

I understand your feelings and to a degree, you are correct with your assessment. However, even though this country (USA), does not have governmental oversite (thank goodness), we are still indoctrinated with the proof of experience mandate. Go back to when you first started in the arts. You were introduced to a school/instructor and being brand-spanking-new, you either knew someone already training and took their word that the school/instructor was competent or you accepted at face value, the certificate hanging on the wall that stated that the person named had obtained a level of knowledge and was proficient at same. As a new addition into the arts, the average person would not know if the instuctor can "walk the walk", until they had received some training and became aware of what was correct and what was BS. By that time, one would have wasted time and money. That piece of paper serves as a portal in aiding judgement. Is it foolproof?...... we have seen that it's not. Even in the professional world (i.e. Medicine, Law, Engineering), there have been people that have circumvented the proper educational forums and granted themselves paper. But, the necessity of having that "real" piece of paper is still an important foundation to credibility. Like it or not, it is and will be a necessary adjunct for approval and acceptance by the general public and peers. People in todays society are/have been educated/assisted to a degree, on what to look for. Again, is it totally reliable?...... we know it's not, but it does assist in attempting to make an educated assessment on acceptance or rejection.

As for your certificate has no meaning outside of your dojang walls, I dis-agree. A good school with good instructor(s) then that piece of paper has far reaching meaning. It validates the person, school, instructor and discipline. That piece of paper signifies that the named person, can "walk the walk" and people wanting to learn can trust it's authorization. Otherwise, why even give certificates? From day one, the arts have always had some form of acknowledgement, on paper, to authorize the continuation and or expansion of a specific discipline or permission to start a new venue of learning. Seeing as "dojo busting" is no longer fashionable or practical, having a valid document is the only other recourse available.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 20, 2004)

You're right. At one time in our history MA teachers would simply show up at another school and challenge that new guy to a showdown. Certs have certainly been a step forward in that. However, that does not necessarily speak to the sentiments of my post. Please let me word this another way. 

Just like there are people who will present paper, worthless paper, that they bought, there are people who want to follow these folks and accrue worthless paper for themselves. In this way you have two MA cultures. You have people who want to train and want to learn and want to do and you have people who want to posture, want to dress-up and want to exploit an image. The question of my previous post is, essentially, to what degree might the do-ers want to intersect with or relate to the posers? Do-ers hope the posers will do things the right way, work the process and come by their credentials honestly, but when the posers don't there is really not a helluva lot the do-ers can do about it. The posers are not going to get out on the mat and demonstrate what they DON'T know. Its not illegal to buy standing in an organization as a substitute for real experience. Posers and wannabees will always talk, evade and posture. Futhermore they will accrue to themselves like-minded practitioners who want cheap validation for as little real effort as possible. The produce of these groups of wannabees are organizations and arts touted as "just as good as" the real thing-- except it is not the real thing. It is an imitation and there is little advocates for the real thing can do if people want to make and sell imitation MA. So I state my question again. To what degree do practitioners of actual MA want to relate to the imitators?  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Chris from CT (Apr 20, 2004)

Bruce and Disco bring up good points about how people can say they are anything they want and then falsely lead people into being taken advantage of.  To be totally honest, I would chalk it up to life experience.  Has everything been perfect for everyone?  No, of course not so why is this any different.  People make bad decisions sometimes. We all do it and then we learn from them.  That is just part of life.  

One way we stop that from constantly happening in our lives is to know about _(insert topic here)_ before we begin to be involved with it.  This goes for anything in our lives such as business opportunities, relationships, martial arts, etc.  Even after that we can get shafted, but what we do from there is up to that individual.  We can whine about it or learn from it.  Once again, chalk it up to life experience.  

Just a side note
One of the things that people will do if they are insecure with their abilities that their paper says is to keep their students secluded from other schools and stylists.  That is why it is great to see and attend high quality events like Master Wests Hapkido International Seminar and Master Campos Super Summer Seminars.  These seminars have tons of stylists from all different walks of life sharing what they have *on the mat.*   For the wallpaper grandmasters there is too much to loose by showing how little they really know.  I believe that is one of the main reasons why you wont see many misrepresent-ers at those seminars.  

Take care  :asian:


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## glad2bhere (Apr 20, 2004)

Dear Chris: 

I can send you a solid "amen" but you slipped a new one on me. What was that other seminar you mentioned. Master Wests' Internationale is a great experience, thats true. But whats this other one you mentioned? One should learn to spread the wealth when there is a high quality experience to be had, yes? 

BTW: How were the seminars that GM Lim did out in your neck of the woods? He came to Chicago and a good time was had by all, but then he went East and disappeared......

BTW #2. Did you think you would bew able to make it to Hal Whalens' for the pre-test weekend  May 1st and 2nd? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Chris from CT (Apr 20, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> What was that other seminar you mentioned. Master Wests' Internationale is a great experience, thats true. But whats this other one you mentioned? One should learn to spread the wealth when there is a high quality experience to be had, yes?



Master Michael Campos is the head of the Zendokai organization in NY and runs a large Martial Arts seminar every summer in up-state NY at Colgate University.  I think he's on his 22nd year running the event.  It is very much like Master West's, its a great time with a few hundred martial artists getting together for a weekend to train.  There multiple sessions going on at once so you always have a choice of which seminar you would like to take.  The only difference is that it has a more Japanese flavor to it than Korean and everything is on campus.   So many different styles and principles from many different martial arts including, Aikido, Ju-Jitsu, Pencak Silat, Escrima, Jeet Kune Do, Wing Chun, Taekwondo, Tai Chi, ZDK system, Shotokan, Goju, Muay Thai, Grappling, Boxing, etc.

For more info, Master Campos' website is...
http://www.superior.net/~zendokai/




			
				glad2bhere said:
			
		

> BTW: How were the seminars that GM Lim did out in your neck of the woods?  He came to Chicago and a good time was had by all, but then he went East and disappeared......



They were great!  Unfortunately, I had to miss a couple including the Chicago one.  It definitely got me pumped for our September trip to Korea.  How did you enjoy the seminar?




			
				glad2bhere said:
			
		

> BTW #2. Did you think you would bew able to make it to Hal Whalens' for the pre-test weekend  May 1st and 2nd?



I'm really hating this year of school because I am missing so many great events.. (Master West's March International, a couple of GM Lim's Seminars, Hal's KHF Event, GM Jang seminar in FL, etc).  I'm lucky I am making as many as I am.  I say this all the time to myself that "It will all be worth it in the end."   I'm graduating in the beginning of June and then I sit for the national exam at the end of June.  It's going to be a hell of a month!

If anything should change I will be there.

Take care.


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## Disco (Apr 20, 2004)

artyon: 

Seriously, were basicly all on the same page here. How far do we go with dealing with, as Bruce puts it, the posers. Well there's not a whole heck of a lot that can be done, except informing people and asking questions where everybody is privy to the answer. Other than that, it's "Caveat Emptor" - Buyer beware. We'll use the latest mini-series for example. Phoney certificates were awarded or brought, whatever the case may be. For those that sought the easy way and purchased a piece of paper, tough!, you got what you paid for. Now for those that have earnestly trained and put forth maximum effort. On behalf of all the people that are on the other side of that coin, I apologize for the way you have been treated and hope that you were able to find a new place to continue your journey in the arts. Now the really sad part to all this is that the party in question was/is supposed to be a "legit" MA. The only saving grace out of all of this is the training people received (for those that really trained), should be - I hope - valid. Again, this is based on the presumption that the party was in fact legit at one time. 

Now this is a sore spot, from my point of view, in relationship to the KHF. In my opinion, the KHF should retest all those people that were awarded  phoney KHF ranking, AT NO COST!.... It would go a long, long, loooooong way into showing people that they stand behind the tenents of Hapkido and that they are an organization worthy of respect. As it stands right now, it looks like money is all their really interested in. No disrespect intended to individuals, this is directed at the organization as a whole. A perfect example of what I mean is the cost of the up coming June seminar. $300+ is a big nut for a lot of people. Now the KHF states that it is a high point event, for they are/wish to be the premier Hapkido organization in the world. Well, saying and doing are two different things. Retest those people and you will have my respect, but telling me and charging me for it, gets you nowhere in my book. 

The bottom line to all this ranting is that organizations and the certifications coming from same are a fixture now. We cannot remove their positioning in todays world. The only thing that can be accomplished, is oversite of how they run and treat people. Our job, is to voice opinion and point out flaws, that can/should be corrected. If they are non-responsive, then walk away. For they are not worthy of your trust and membership. Yes, self validation is really all we honestly need. Can I walk the walk? But having the validation of peers only reinforces and expands the scope of our education and acceptance. As humans, acceptance is the rule. We are after all social beings.

Chris, good luck on your exam.................. :asian:


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## glad2bhere (Apr 20, 2004)

Dear Disco: 

"......Now this is a sore spot, from my point of view, in relationship to the KHF. In my opinion, the KHF should retest all those people that were awarded phoney KHF ranking, AT NO COST!.... It would go a long, long, loooooong way into showing people that they stand behind the tenents of Hapkido and that they are an organization worthy of respect. As it stands right now, it looks like money is all their really interested in. No disrespect intended to individuals, this is directed at the organization as a whole. A perfect example of what I mean is the cost of the up coming June seminar. $300+ is a big nut for a lot of people. Now the KHF states that it is a high point event, for they are/wish to be the premier Hapkido organization in the world. Well, saying and doing are two different things. Retest those people and you will have my respect, but telling me and charging me for it, gets you nowhere in my book......" 

It suddenly hit me as I was reading your post that we may not have addressed this earlier (or did we?). If not let me go on record as saying that if people paid for a fraudulent cert (and can prove it with a receipt of some sort--- maybe even the cert itself) I am in agreement that a retest for THAT rank is in order and should be conducted at no charge. I think where I got balled-up was in hearing that people were unhappy having to pay for a test at all. For me, paying for an experience is part of the cost of pursuing the art I have chosen--- end of discussion. However, I think that you are right that if a person can prove that they were defrauded then allowing for a re-test at no charge seems fair. I have heard tell, though, that people are coming along and saying they were defrauded of their (say) 3rd dan, when what they were certifying for was a first dan. Not kosher.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Apr 20, 2004)

Bruce, you bring up a valid point as to testing for the correct rank. I was addressing this for/toward the honest person who did train and test and was duped. But as I am writing this, I am thinking of your statement. To be perfectly fair to those affected, we must remember who did the teaching - testing. This opens up another venue for review. Did they really receive the proper training for the rank. This is in no way a reflection upon the person testing, for they were under instructorship and therefor trusted the party in question. I think the KHF has a duty to these people, beyond a piece of paper. Those that actually trained should be re-evaluated (pro-bono), to see if they were in fact properly instructed. It's all inhouse KHF curriculum so it should not be a problem. I hope the KHF reads these posts and takes into consideration the logic that is being addressed, on their behalf. From my own perspective, I am very apprehensive when asked to dole out a decent sum of money to people that do not have a great track record. They (KHF) needs to show people they are/have changed, not just offer lip service, that unto itself was a long time coming for what transpired. 

Now to refocus back to the original question of the Kukkiwon certificate displayed on Mr. Lims site. Knowing that the parties participating all have ties back to the problem child, one can only wonder if the possibility of an additional bad certificate has possibly surfaced. I don't know this as a fact, but the difference in the certificate dictated my questioning. For all I know, my certificates may be bad, but I seriously doubt that. Just basing that on what I have seen from numerous other TKD/WTF peoples certificates, including my Korean Master instructor. I realize that Mr. Lim dosen't need Kukkiwon, he has Kwan ranking, but just verifying would clear the air, so to speak.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 20, 2004)

Oooopppsss... 

".....This opens up another venue for review. Did they really receive the proper training for the rank. This is in no way a reflection upon the person testing, for they were under instructorship and therefor trusted the party in question. I think the KHF has a duty to these people, beyond a piece of paper. Those that actually trained should be re-evaluated (pro-bono), to see if they were in fact properly instructed......." 

You lost me. I thought that the testing WAS a way of validating both the persons' ability to learn and retain and the teachers' ability to instruct and communicate. Are you teasing these two things into separate categories? The test against a standardized criteria would certainly test the students abilities to remember and execute techniques. I'm working to understand how one can go back one step and hold the teacher accountable. To me it would sound as if you automatically hold the teacher and his curriculum responsible if the student doesn't pass. Or am I missing something? I absolutely believe a teacher should be held accountable, I just don't know if you can do that with the students' test. Thoughts? 

BTW: Did you make the statement that Lim doesn't need the Kukiwon because he has "kwan ranking"? But if the kwan is one that he started for himself isn't that equivalent of the fox making up policy for the chickens? To whom would he be accountable in representing his kwan as a  HKD/TKD/TSD if his kwan is one of his own construction? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Apr 20, 2004)

You lost me. I thought that the testing WAS a way of validating both the persons' ability to learn and retain and the teachers' ability to instruct and communicate

Yes, you are right in your statement on testing. I was referring to the certain party that issued the bogus certificates. Perhaps the training that was being provided was also not on the up and up. If his standards for honesty are low then everything associated with him is suspect. The persons affected by all this need to be evaluated honestly as to where they actually stand in relation to KHF rank requirements. 

As for Mr. Lims Kwan ranking. If in fact it is his Kwan, then yes your assessment is correct. I was under the impression that he is the inheritor of that Kwan and not the founder.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 20, 2004)

Master Lim is certified by ChungDoKwan. He does not have his own Kwan in TKD. He trained with Park, Hae Man, who trained with either Master Uhm or Master Lee, Won Kuk.

As i stated earlier, in his country martial arts is regulated. You cannot hold yourself out to have a rank which cannot be validated by the government. I don't know how serious a crime it is, but in a country where one joint will get you the death penalty, nothing surprises me.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 21, 2004)

Disco: 

"......Perhaps the training that was being provided was also not on the up and up. If his standards for honesty are low then everything associated with him is suspect....." 

But then, how would this be accomplished? If the turkey was accomodating then maybe it would be a matter of submitting his curriculum for review preparatory to any of the students applying for testing. Of course there is nothing to say that he actually TAUGHT the curriculum and I wouldn't lay-off bets on his cooperation either.  The fact is that what we are dealing with is a very simple act of short-circuiting a process. People who want to exploit the Hapkido process for money do so because selling the image of having participated in the long and difficult process of Hapkido growth has a better profit magin than maintaining the process itself. I will also say (once again) that I don't think that the students are complete victims, Somewhere along the line they realized that they were getting something they had not worked for. When someone offers rank or standing albeit for relatively high premiums and with relatively moderate requirements I cannot believe that bells and whistles don't go off in someones' head.  NOW we are suppose to figure out a way to legitimize this because somebody was a "victim". I can see working with students who want to re-do what they have done but I don't see how we can legitimize the perp/teacher or his business venture. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Apr 21, 2004)

".......Sorry, I cannot address this question for you. I am not involved with Kukkiwon Taekwondo. I can say this... in Malaysia, martial arts are government regulated. if something is not right, there are serious issues....." 

I don't think this follows. 

If I call GM Lim he will tell me that everything is on the up&up. 

If I were to call the Malaysian government they would probably tell me that they saw the cert and everything is fine with them. Its not like they are authorities on the authenticity of certs, or that they call to Korean to validate a vitae. 

If the cert is a kukkiwon cert then certainly someone ought to be able to confirm the authenticity of the cert. Can't believe that this is THAT involved.

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Apr 21, 2004)

Bruce, on the contrary. It would not legitimize, it would only expand the overall picture of the person responsible for the problem. Your point on bells and whistles for moderate requirements is noted and most likely on the money. As for the buyers of rank, then they got what they paid for. I am addressing this mainly for the people that thought they achieved 1st or 2nd Dan. Now I am assuming that the KHF curriculum, which was applicable at the time all of this transpired, was not adheared to. Only physically showing an exam board of peers could validate their position. But for argument sake, lets say that the training was above board and followed procedures. Either way, these people need to be recertified to honestly justify their rank. I submit, that if the person is willing to stand and be counted, then they should be afforded the opportunity to do so - at no charge. Now should nobody come forward to avail themselves of the opportunity, then that says everything that needs to be said. The KHF may not agree, but I feel they owe that to these people and it would clarify a lot things with very little effort on their part.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 21, 2004)

Dear Disco: 

OK, I think I am back on track again. Then you ARE focusing the needs of the student, then and NOT the perp/teacher, right? Thats what I thought we were focusing on. To my way of thinking, if the perp/teacher has gone around the bend and is issuing fradulant certs he is pretty much a lost cause. Seems we were focused in the right place to begin with--- the student. Here are a couple of thoughts. 

1.) Given that the curriculum approximates Hapkido standards of one sort or another (KHF, HRD, KSW, SM etc.) it should be a simple matter of re-testing at no charge and re-certifying the individual. 

2.) Where the curriculum is a significant departure (Joe's School of Hapkido and Hair Restoration) I would think that the first get-together would be a fee-free assessment of the persons' ability and their published curriculum, with a diagnostic supplied that would get the person into compliance with the organization. Then the choice is whether they would want to take time out and get themselves up to speed. Their test/retest would be at a reduced rate. 

As I am writing this I am thinking of the students I get from other Hapkido schools in the area. Most don't stay when it turns out that I don't just automatically test them for their next belt when they show up. In fact I have a gueppie who is interested in testing for his BB and is willing to submitt to my curriculum in order to hit all the bases. In his case I will be testing him for each guep rank (6 through 1) at no charge and am waiving the mat time since he has already met the requirements of his previous school. He'll be picking up Yon Mu Kwan material as fast as he wants to master it (and he also comes to my sword class as well). When it comes time for testing for his BB he will pay the testing fee and that will be that. I suppose some would say that compromising my standards but I still feel he is testing albeit without cert and being appropriately prepared for getting a legit YMK Hapkido BB.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Adrian0903 (Apr 21, 2004)

In regard to KKW certification all dan above 4th are now gold/yellow paper, below are white background. So, Julian Lims KKW certs are original, if any one needs to check, just email/write or telephone the KKW stating the issue number.

In regard to Gm Park Hae Man he is Gm Umh Woon Kyu student although he always visited Gm Lee Won Kuk when in Virginia.

Adrian St.Cyrien


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## Disco (Apr 21, 2004)

(Joe's School of Hapkido and Hair Restoration) OK, what's wrong with that. It servers a two fold purpose. Kick Butt and LOOK GOOD doing it..... :idunno: 

I don't think your "compromising your standards" in the least. It's your (Yon Mu Kwan) curriculum and if the student can adhear to it, reguardless of time factor, then nothing is being subverted. I personally don't hold students back if they know the material and can function correctly. They will in time hit their personal wall and the time equation will rectify itself. 

My whole content of our discussion is directed at/for the benefit of the student. As you stated, the instructor went around the bend, so yes he is a lost cause from my perspective. But the honest, trusting student should not be punished for something he/she did not do. 

Everything else you addressed, I agree with.


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 21, 2004)

First of all,

Grandmaster does not exist in Korea. Master Lim goes by Master Lim. Second of all, Malaysia DOES verify the authenticity of the cert. This is how he found out that there were issues in regards to docs obtained from a certain marsupial, who incidentally denied any wrong doing there too.


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