# How important is ukemi?



## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

Geof Gleeson, the British Judo Association head coach, was one of the first to question the importance of ukemi in judo.  Anton Geesink, the Dutch '64 Olympic judo gold medal winner, also question the efficacy of ukemi, and Gerald LaFon, a former American judo coach, openly doubted the usefulness of ukemi to judo.  Yet others have sworn to the utmost necessity of Ukemi is to judo training.  What are your views of the continued practice of teaching beginners to first learn to fall in traditional judo?


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## Jim (Sep 17, 2004)

I think it depends on what type of Judo you do.


If you do the type of sport Judo where you'll lose points for having yourself thrown on the ground (either shoulder vs. full back) then I'd suggest that Ukemi may not be as important to you as keeping yourself from being thrown by whatever means necessary.

However, if you do not learn/teach/pass on your Ukemi skills then you run the risk of not ever truely learning the throws.

If you mean to do, for argument's sake, Seioe Nage 'full throttle' vs. a resisting opponent and they haven't got good Ukemi skills I would implore you to make sure your insurance cover is up to date.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 18, 2004)

Hi Jim,

I am of the opinion that ukemi is a crucial part of judo training and its absence is to diminish Kodokan judo and Dr. Kano's maxim of 'maximum efficiency'.  

I was curious as to other opinions on why it would be lessened in the judo training curriculum?



			
				J Jim said:
			
		

> I think it depends on what type of Judo you do.
> 
> 
> If you do the type of sport Judo where you'll lose points for having yourself thrown on the ground (either shoulder vs. full back) then I'd suggest that Ukemi may not be as important to you as keeping yourself from being thrown by whatever means necessary.
> ...


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## Andrew Green (Sep 18, 2004)

What do you mean?

Not having beginners do the solo falling drills, or not teaching them how to fall at all?

I don't see much use for the solo falling drills, I find it is easier to get people falling correct simply by starting off slow on the takedowns (low impact) and working up.

The solo drills IMO do not very well represent the way you ever actually fall apart from in those drills...


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## Ceicei (Sep 18, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The solo drills IMO do not very well represent the way you ever actually fall


I have to agree with you on this.  When solo falling, I've seen people almost "contort" themselves on the way down because it isn't "natural" or as real.  It is much easier to learn how to fall correctly when working with another person.

- Ceicei


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 18, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> What do you mean?
> 
> Not having beginners do the solo falling drills, or not teaching them how to fall at all?
> 
> ...


Hi Andrew,

I mean learning how to fall independent of being thrown.  Falling solo (?)

I believe learning to fall independent of throwing techniques is an important judo skill in and of itself.  As important as a choke, armbar, hip throw etc.

Some countries only teach how to fall in conjuction with learning to throw, not independently.  I feel this is a mistake.  Yet those countries use success in tournament to justify this absence of teaching solo falling, and my interpretation is your short changing your student by not teaching solo falling.

What do you think of falling as an independent skill seperate from throws, chokes, etc.?


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## Andrew Green (Sep 18, 2004)

"What do you think of falling as an independent skill seperate from throws, chokes, etc.?"

Correct falling is important. Keeps you from getting hurt.  The solo drills are pretty useless and not in any way useful.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 18, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> "What do you think of falling as an independent skill seperate from throws, chokes, etc.?"
> 
> Correct falling is important. Keeps you from getting hurt. The solo drills are pretty useless and not in any way useful.


This is where I would tend to disagree, that the solo drills are useless.  Since judo is also a way of life, the solo falling skill is applicable to self-reliance other than a street fight.  Being able to survive a fall from a considerable height, say a fall from a three story building, has been attributed to ukemi from judoists who have experienced such a fall. 

So once again, judo is not just about contest, it has other little perks that help out in your day to day routine.  And learning to fall correctly, independent of the other judo techniques, is justified and productive.


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## Steve Scott (Sep 18, 2004)

Hello all,
I remember reading just about everything Geoff Gleeson and others wrote about ukemi back in the 1970's and discussing the matter with coaches in the 1970s and 1980s about ukemi as well. I remember hearing some of the leading competitive coaches (at that time) tell us that "breakfalls are for losers."  Then, other leading coaches took the opposite view.
In fact, as a young coach, I experimented a fair deal in not teaching ukemi to beginners.  I gave it a fair try and was objective about the subject.  Here's what I came up with...
1-Ukemi (breakfalls) are fundamental for safety in judo.  I found that athletes can't aggressively randori when they are not skilled in ukemi.  I also found that ukemi teaches confidence.  Knowing that you can instinctively fall safely is reassuring and helps a judoka learn judo more fully.
2-In discussing breakfalls with some top wrestling coaches, I discovered that many wrestling coaches told me that they would welcome some system of fallng safely during practice for wrestlers.  Many injuries take place in that sport as a result of not landing well. My experience in sambo is that back in the ealry days of sambo in the USA, we had a lot of collegiate wrestlers show up to the sambo nationals (in the 1970s and early 1980s).  I remember several of these guys getting broken arms and dislocated elbows from landing poorly from a hard throw from a judo athlete or someone skilled in the throws of sambo.  These collegiate wrestlers simply did not know how to land safely.  I also saw a kid (about 20 or so) land in a neck bridge and they carted him out on an ambulance gurney.  Fortunately, he didn't break his neck, but it could have easily happened.  He simply didn't know how to fall and his opponent slammed him with a hard throw.
3-Ukemi teaches an athlete to move more freely (something I touched on in #1) and more confidently on the mat.  Example...I did a judo clininc at a club where the coach did not teach ukemi at all.  He believed that "breakfalls are for losers" (a quote that was popular then) which was common during that time (in the 1980s) in some places in the United States.  Anyway, I was teaching okuri ashi barai (sliding foot sweep) and used one of his athletes as an uke.  As I demonstrated the throw, the young man hesitated quite a bit in being my uke.  I wondered what he was trying to prove. This young man had a brown belt on and had about 5 years of judo training and had competed in several junior nationals and was about 20 years old.  I stopped the demonstration and told him to relax and that I was just demonstrating how to do the move so he didn't need to resist it. When I threw him, he landed with a hard "thump", took the force of the fall directly in his ribs and just laid there.  He was hurt.  I did the throw properly and with skill...this is one of my favorite throws and I had never hurt anyone doing it before, not even in a tournament.  What happened was, he simply landed poorly and took a hard shot. He didn't slap the mat or take a breakfall in any way.  He got up after a few minutes, but was shakaen.
I asked his coach why he didn't take a good breakfall and his coach simply replied "breakfalls are for losers."  His coach told me he would rather see an athlete break an arm or rib than take a fall and "be a loser." (This comment brings up a lot more questions on ethics in coaching, but I'll leave that to another discussion.)
I realized why the young man resisted initially.  He was unsure of himself when falling and he instinctively resisted me.  
Now, this may sound good to those who want to win judo matches, but if every randori round or every throwing practice went like this, no one would learn much of anything.  Taking a fall in randori isn't anything to be ashamed of and if you don't know how to fall safely, you will end up getting hurt quickly and often.
Also, one other point which may be of interest.  In 1981, I attended a national training camp where a young, upcoming "innovative" (his description of himself) judo coach had 2 or 3 female adult athletes attending.  I heard this young coach tell his athletes on the first day of camp, just before randori was to start for the session, "I don't want to see you take any falls. Breakfalls are for losers and you're not losers."  No kidding...this is the truth...the very first round of randori, one of this guy's female black belts was doing randori with another female black belt and she got thrown with a harai goshi.  This woman stuck her arm out in an attempt to stop the throw (or possibly attempt a turn-out) and the arm broke.  This took place at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs and we had a trainer there to give her immediate first-aid and she was taken to the hospital.  But, here was a good example of why ukemi is important in judo.  I might add that even though the young lady did not do a breakfall, she was still thrown. The breakfall would have simply allowed her to avoid injury and continue with the training camp.  
I've been in judo over 39 years and practiced it in 14 countries with members of various national teams and national training camps, as well as in local dojos.  My conclusion is that ukemi is important for not only safety, but overall judo development.
Something else to consider.  I remember in my physical education theory classes in college that safety is one of the things physical educators should teach.  Teaching the skills of any sport or physical activity safely and allowing for some measure of safety was, and is, a part of teaching physical education.  So it's not only in judo that safety is considered important. In addition to ukemi, I use crash pads in my dojo, but we often do lots of nagekomi (throwing practice) moving about the mat and crash pads are not useful for this drill.  This is where ukemi is important for good judo practice.
Several years ago, I wrote an article in my "Inside Judo Newsletter" (now out of print) titled "Are Breakfalls For Losers?" making the points I did here.
Ukemi is very useful and if you look at it objectively (as I have tried to do over the years), I believe you will come to a similar conclusion as me.  I teach it and encourage my atheltes to use it. I might add that I work hard on defense and hip blocks with my competitive athletes so they won't have to use ukemi in a tournament...but if they get caught cleanly I would rather them land safely than get injured. Also, not everyone who does judo is a competitive athlete.  
Anyway, that's my contribution to the subject.
Steve Scott


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Sep 18, 2004)

In my own simple mind, invaluable. Any grappler runs the risk of heading to the ground in a defense situation, and you better know how to land, or expect to go "thud".

Personally, ukemi-waza have saved my life in simple slip-&-falls, household accidents, and laying down bikes.  Wouldn't leave home without them. 

D.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 19, 2004)

Thank you for the informative and awsome post on ukemi Sensei Scott;

what made me ask this question is that I just finished reading 'Judo For The West' 1967 G.R. Gleeson, and he alledgedly is one of the first to advocate doing away with ukemi in judo training.  Yet they get competition results from this methodology.  

Personally, in my lowly and newly acquired shodan mind, it doesn't make sense to omit ukemi as an individual component from judo.  Ukemi, in an of itself, has as much value as choking or armbars in judo training, at least in my opinion.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't think anyone will argue that learning how to fall safely is a uneccessary skill.  But there are other ways to do it, and the squat and slap type of routine is only one way, one that I don't particullarly care for.

The best way to teach throws, is by throwing people and helping them land correctly that way.  Not just toss them and hope for the best, but teach the fall with the throw and start off with low impact ones.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 19, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone will argue that learning how to fall safely is a uneccessary skill. But there are other ways to do it, and the squat and slap type of routine is only one way, one that I don't particullarly care for.
> 
> The best way to teach throws, is by throwing people and helping them land correctly that way. Not just toss them and hope for the best, but teach the fall with the throw and start off with low impact ones.


Andrew,

This is exactly the methodology of falling written about in the 1967 book: 'Judo for the West' by G.F. Gleeson, the former British National Judo coach.

A pragmatic teaching method, by learning to fall in conjunction with being thrown.

But then how does one learn to fall independently from being thrown?  As sensei Steve Scott wrote, a brown belt taught in the manner you just described had a traumatic experience with simple nage no kata, though he was an experienced competitor.  What if that brown belt had to take a fall without being thrown, such as tripping off a curb or slipping on a banana peel?  Should that be an unnecessary near-death experience for an experienced competitior?


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## Andrew Green (Sep 19, 2004)

First thing that is important is being adaptable.

Can't get that from taking static falls.

If you learn to fall from being thrown you will loose nothing that you would gain from squatting and slapping.

I can teach the exact same falls as those drills teach, but take control away from the person falling, making it harder to "cheat" and less controlled in that you don't know exactly when.  Wouldn't this better simulate a accidental fall outside of a training environment?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 19, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> First thing that is important is being adaptable.
> 
> Can't get that from taking static falls.
> 
> ...


Hi Andrew,

Your use of the term 'cheat' threw me (no pun intended) when mentioning taking away control from uke.  If I'm off here please correct me: How is it a cheat to teach someone to fall?

In my experience, one does not go from mat slapping directly to being thrown.  There are gradations from mat banging, to right shoulder rolls, to righ shoulder rolls off someone's crouching back, to right shoulder rolls in the air, to being thrown, then the throws also become progressively harder until one can be thrown in maki-komi safely.

I was taught that ukemi is a form of self-defense, just like ippon seoi nage in the Nage No Kata.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 19, 2004)

And a progression can exist without the mat banging too


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 19, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> And a progression can exist without the mat banging too


Hi Andrew,

Could you briefly describe the progression in your ukemi program without the mat banging for readers to analyze?  Thanks!


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## Andrew Green (Sep 19, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi Andrew,
> 
> Could you briefly describe the progression in your ukemi program without the mat banging for readers to analyze? Thanks!


Start with takedowns that are "soft"

Back heel trips, Ankle picks, body lock drops, etc.  Things that don't hurt.  Even start off on the knees if you like...

Work up on both takedowns / throws and falling at the same time...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 19, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Start with takedowns that are "soft"
> 
> Back heel trips, Ankle picks, body lock drops, etc. Things that don't hurt. Even start off on the knees if you like...
> 
> Work up on both takedowns / throws and falling at the same time...


Curious, it doesn't sound like you're talking about judo?  What is a "body lock drop(s)"?

Starting with "soft" throws (if such a creature exists in judo) is a good idea.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 19, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Curious, it doesn't sound like you're talking about judo? What is a "body lock drop(s)"?
> 
> Starting with "soft" throws (if such a creature exists in judo) is a good idea.


 
Why restrict yourself to Strictly Competition throws if Judo is a martial art?

Strikes are a part of Judo to, but very few train them regullarly

Anyway

Heel pick - Kibisu-gaeshi

Body lock is wear you grab the guy around the waiste and lock you hands.  Some very simple takedowns done from the side and the back involve sitting out to the side and draggin him down onto his back over top of you.  Very simple, very safe. Basically the same thing can be done when in a headlock or guillotene.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 20, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Why restrict yourself to Strictly Competition throws if Judo is a martial art?
> 
> Strikes are a part of Judo to, but very few train them regullarly
> 
> ...


Hi Andrew:

What are competition throws, and how do you restrict yourself to them?

Usually you do not learn the Kodokan Goshin No Kata and the Kishiki No Kata until you're past third dan.

Headlocks and guillotese chokes are not used in judo competition.

I like your opinions, but they're not very well informed in judo?

The types of 'take downs' you described are wrestling take downs.  The closest throw in judo to a 'take down' is either sumi gaeshi or the newly accepted 'ankle pick up' in the Kodokan's expanded Gokyu NO Waza.

But I still think ukemi 'solo training' is very important.


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## bignick (Sep 20, 2004)

what about morote gari...that's nothing more than a double leg takedown


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 20, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> what about morote gari...that's nothing more than a double leg takedown


Throw, bignick, throw!  Morote gari is a throw, you are airborne after the proper apllication of three parts of a judo throw: Kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake!  Takedowns don't have these.


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## bignick (Sep 20, 2004)

why don't they?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 20, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> why don't they?


As compared to a judo 'throw', a simple take down doesn't possess all three qualities of a throw: balance, entry, and execution.  These are the basic criteria of a judo throw which you must keep in mind for the rest of your judo life!!!

For example, a trip, pick-up, roll-over, or single leg dive simple 'knocks' down your opponent; in the eyes of judo, a knock down is really nothing in comparison when your opponent does a complete 360 circle and lands with a double-bounce on the tatami.  Maybe you haven't seen or experienced this yet?

In morote-gari, you butt uke in the chest with your shoulder, breaking his balance (kuzushi) to the rear while sweeping up both his legs, grabbing behind the knees (entry).  You continue this drive and sweeping motion (as I was taught) with your legs sideways so as to not get a foot in the groin by accident, driving uke into the tatami with much more height and power (execution) than with a mere takedown.

So judo has distinguished a great deal of difference between a throw and a take-down.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 20, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi Andrew:
> 
> What are competition throws, and how do you restrict yourself to them?
> 
> ...


Does Judo not also contain a "self-defence" element?  If it is a martial art and not just a sport as you keep saying than surely it must...  But yet you don't train basic headlock escapes?

Oh and for the record, Judo and wrestling are not all that different...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 20, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Does Judo not also contain a "self-defence" element? If it is a martial art and not just a sport as you keep saying than surely it must... But yet you don't train basic headlock escapes?
> 
> Oh and for the record, Judo and wrestling are not all that different...


I think Sensei Scott gave a great description on how different is judo from wrestling, and judo's ukemi was only one important difference.

And for information on judo's "self-defence" element, please visit the 'koshiki no kata' thread.


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