# Nerve Strikes



## KenpoKTI (Jul 26, 2002)

Hello All,

My first post...WOO HOO!!!

Last night, my sensai (Seig) showed my brown belt 3 group to use a nerve strike in a technique (Returning Storm) instead of brute power.  Since I don't know where the nerves that are targeted, I was wondering if anyone knew of a good source of nerve strikes (preferably online).  Thanks.

:idunno: Kile :idunno:


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## tarabos (Jul 26, 2002)

I don't know of any online references containing a "map" of all the nerves in the human body, i would direct you to borders bookstore if you really want a comprehensive list. but if you do plan to start studying nerve strikes and manipulations, i say go for it...but be careful and do it under the supervision of a knowledgable instructor. you can mess somone up pretty good by striking nerves, and you can also be trying to go for a nerve, but wind up doing different kinds of damage instead. 

that said, assuming you study AK, i would look for the nerve strikes in your techniques where they occur most often and would be most useful and practical to use. there's a plethora of nerves in the forearm and wrist, and many kenpo techs. hit the nerves in the neck often. techniques like delayed sword and five swords can attack nerves in the neck if done properly. and usually when you deliver a hard striking block to someone's inner forearm, you're catching a bunch of nerves. lots of possiblities all over the place. 

you can also check out Geroge Dilman's site to see if he has any info up on it...not sure that he has anything like you're looking for on his website though.


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## fist of fury (Jul 26, 2002)

Maybe this will help you get started

http://pressurepointfighting.com/public_html/dim_mak_taiji_points.htm


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## Seig (Jul 26, 2002)

Kile,
I cannot stress enough what Tarabos has said.  The strikes I have shown you, nerve or otherwise is the benefit of over 15 years of studying that particular topic.  This is not something you can simply pick up and read up and be able to do.  To understand the way the nerve strikes work, you have to understand anatomy and the nervous system.  There is a lot more to it than simply striking a nerve.  The ones I have shown in class are the ones that are not going to do permanent damage if you do them wrong.  Half of being able to do nerve strikes is knowing how to UNDO them as well.  There are nerve strikes through out the curriculuum and as I feel you guys are ready for them, i will reveal them, in a controlled manner.  Please, do not go off on your own and try and study them and then apply them.  i will guide you through them as your skills and understanding progress.  I do this for the safety of everyone involved.:asian:


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## Doc (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoKTI _
> 
> *Hello All,
> 
> ...



"If it were that easy, everyone would be doing it. The higher you get, the less people know what you're talking about." - Ed Parker

Charts are only a very general reference and all of them are a little different. They don't begin to tell you what you need to actually use them. Besides all the reference material is for people lying down in a supine position, not upright, active, and aggressive. I thought you said you had a teacher. Why aren't you asking him? And if he won't tell you ...........


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## ikenpo (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Kile,
> This is not something you can simply pick up and read up and be able to do.  To understand the way the nerve strikes work, you have to understand anatomy and the nervous system.
> ...



Wow,

Way to stifle some interest. At third brown my thought would be that there would be a certain amount of maturity that would allow a free thinking adult to explore whatever they wanted without fear that they are going to go around trying to hit someone on L-5, TW-17 or S-5 or whatever just for fun. If they do then something has failed in the process of conveying the potential severity of practicing martial arts. 

When you tell a person "don't" do something you immediately create a barrier or wedge in your relationship. Now that person will feel a little like they are "going behind your back" if they open a book or read something on nerve strikes and they can not come to you to discuss what they may have seen because they know they have gone against whatever "authority and control" they have given you over them in their monthly payment to you for martial arts lessons. 
:shrug: 

jb


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## ikenpo (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> I thought you said you had a teacher. Why aren't you asking him? And if he won't tell you ........... *



Doc,

Way to bring a little Kenponet to Martialtalk...

We normally save the blatent disrespectful comments for KN where everyone can anonamously rip on each other  (as you know). 

I don't know that Seig deserved all of that...

just my thoughts I could be wrong, jb:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 27, 2002)

From nerve strikes I don't know, but since it looks as though they're no longer the issue anyway, let me put in on something I do know about.

The essential paradox of being a student in the martial arts, these days, boils down to this: on one hand, you have to shut up and trust the teacher you've chosen, and on the other you have to constantly think about what you're doing. One example of this: it looks as though Seig is exactly right to say, essentially, shut up and we'll get to it in good time--especially because, these days, one of the problems in American kenpo is that a lot of students aren't really willing to be students, and they're hoorawing their way into material they aren't ready for in any sense.

On the other hand, the problem is that the students have a point. I don't know Seig from a hatrack--so I certainly don't mean him, let me be absolutely clear--but martial arts, and kenpo in particularly, is just plain stuffed with examples of, "teachers," a lot more concerned with making themselves look good than teaching students. I won't even mention the flat-out fakes, the lazy guys who no longer work out but still remain masters, the money-grubbers...well, you know the list. In any case, students are unfortunately right to be wary and demanding.

Once upon a time, the story goes, none of this was an issue. Masters simply wished to transmit their legacy to the worthy; students came to the dojo with an innocent heart and an empty cup. Yeah, right. We never seem to quite be able to find these good old days outside movies, because when looked at closely, martial arts history is a mess. Why, exactly, did Shaolin get burned down? Politics, and egos...

So, I dunno. I do wish that this whole contradiction never came up, and that we all of us could be better trusted. But I teach, and my screwups go on forever...I am pretty sure of one thing, though, and it's that the demand for more technique now in the martial arts is going to lead straight to more of what we already got.

Well, rant over.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 27, 2002)

Let me put this back on track a little.  There are any number of books on anatomy in the book stores and you local doctor or  PT might be willing to help you get a good chart on the nerves in the arm or legs.    Looking at those books/charts is a start, but only a start.  A good instructor is also need as has been said because some of these points can and may cause perminate damage.  
  Learning to hit the right spot is a must. If you miss the spot and hit an artery or vein you may do damage to it (cause a bleed, cause a clot to form, which may come lose and kill you .
Shadow:asian:


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## satans.barber (Jul 27, 2002)

Surely this could just as easily happen in sparring, which most people do anyway. What's the difference?

Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

I remember sparring with Chape'l once and :rofl: 
hell, I wish I had one of those full armor men..... 

:asian:


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## Doc (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I remember sparring with Chape'l once and :rofl:
> hell, I wish I had one of those full armor men.....
> ...



Liar. I remember too and can still show you the spot where you you hit me with that weird "blitz" thing you did.


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## Doc (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
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You are wrong, I said nothing "blatant disrespectful" to anyone. I did pose some questions about a student teacher relationship I find quite valid.

First of all, Seig and I have communicated privately on this topic and are in agreement, so no slight to him. (And I might add allow some one who feels slighted to speak for themselves to avoid misunderstandings).  Additionally As a teacher my position  is a simple one. If you have a teacher and he won't give you information you want, then you should find another teacher rather than attempt to circumvent his manner of instruction.  If you think your teacher is wise enough to teach you than why are you questioning his decisions? If you don't think he is wise than move on, or  maybe you should just tell him what you want to learn and when you want to learn it.  After all you know best right? Better yet, teach yourself.

There are alot of people that actually believe they can go out and explore and "discover" all this information. Sorry to tell you but you can't. You can bounce around all you want from this guy to that, and in the long run you'll discover you got nothing of substance. I personally have never lost a student because he wasn't getting enough information.

My students will tell you I never deny anyone the right to explore, search, visit, workout, whatever they want to do, but if you think you know what's best in what and how I teach, than you should be teaching instead of me.

When it comes to nerve strikes etc., that is very dangerous information and any MD will tell you that. So when some guy says "My instructor only showed me a little bit but I want more," He's attempting to bypass his teacher in a dangerous area. Considering I don't know either one personally, I have to believe that there is a reason his techer is not giving him certain information, and I for one will not help him circumvent his instruction.

I know you "bouncers" out there who have grown up in this "martial arts exploration" culture find it hard to believe that there are things only a teacher can give you over an extended period of time when he sees you are ready for it, but it's true.

This is one of the major problems with the modern eclectic interpretations of the martial arts. Bruce Lee and others have convinced you that you can flitter around and then put "your own thing" together. Well you can, and that's all you'll have. Funny most of the guys you respect didn't do that, but for some reason you thnk you can. I have an idea everybody, let's start at the top, and work our way up.

OK rant over. Truth be told, it's about what you want out of it. If that's all you want, than I guess it's OK. Just don't be surprized when you find you don't really have much. 

Did I study with more than one person? Yes, I did, but I stayed with one man almost 30 years. My suggestion: As long as you continue to learn and improve, as well as respect your teacher, stay where you are. When you stop, move on. Like I said, I have never lost a student to another art or teacher.

PS: JB, you should know better. Almost everybody e-mails me on the side, and I make it a point to tell it as I see it without "political correctness" which I hate.


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## Sandor (Jul 27, 2002)

Doc,

Great post. 

:asian: 

Sandor


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## ikenpo (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
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Well,

I did say I could be wrong....You made some great points. 

jb:asian:


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## ikenpo (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
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The only thing I would add is that I don't consider myself a "bouncer" as you've labeled me, I'm a "MK bouncer" .... I know I personally only trained with my original instructor from 1986-93 (off and on through high school and college graduation) and my most recent instructor whom I spent 5 years with until I felt it was time to go...(and through those 5 yrs I had several people encouraging me to move on and train with them, but I was loyal to a fault, in the sense that I felt there was value there...when I didn't feel that anymore I had to leave...even if it meant not receiving my Black, that's how real I am). No disrespect to him because he is highly skilled and will kill you (well maybe not YOU, but you know what I mean), it was just time for me to go. 

I do agree that people can't just get it from just"exploring, organizing, catagorizing, etc..." although somebody did or it would exist, right? I didn't get that homeboy was trying to circumvent his instructor, but had a genuine interest in what he was exposed to and said "hey, there is a forum that people ask questions on, maybe I'll ask a question". And from Seig's response I didn't detect any instructor paranoia...I also didn't get from his (the student's) tone that he was gonna go off and create his own thing or that anyone in this folder is trying to create their own thing. I think they come here to share and learn. If that is wrong to do....then...well, I don't know..

I mean, when you "knocked me out" I wasn't like alright I gotta go out and do that to somebody and I'm gonna call it SL-20, no...I was like damn that dude is dangerous. I just thought to myself, "maybe one day I'll get a chance to train to that level" and I didn't leave my instructor either....

The final thing I'd add is whenever I've spoke of instructors keeping info to themselves...It has never applied to any 1st gens "I respect". 

The comment that, "Bruce Lee and others have convinced you that you can flitter around and then put "your own thing" together. Well you can, and that's all you'll have. Funny most of the guys you respect didn't do that, but for some reason you thnk you can. " Isn't me...Bruce Lee never convinced me of anything and I don't have any aspirations to create an organization,my own system, put out a video or dvd or streaming video or whatever you folks do now...

And I know you're not into the political correctness thing from the kind of emails you keep sending me at work...:rofl: 

Doc, I'll always respect you, but I won't always agree with you...

Respectfully, jb:asian:


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## Doc (Jul 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
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Wait till I see you.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 28, 2002)

picking on my JB........ he's cool, and bsides, I knew him first anyways...... lOl

:asian:


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## Doc (Jul 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
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You not supposed to agree with me all the time (til I convince you), and anyway I wasn't talking about you personally that was the generic "you" I was talking about.


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## Rob_Broad (Jul 28, 2002)

Nerve strikes can be a very exciting part of your kenpo journey, but they must be studied with great care.  I have seen a few instances where things went wrong because a person was not properly trained and it was frightening.

I love the idea of using nerve strikes in the self defenses, but I would want to go through them with someone with the proper knowledge before attempting anything.


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