# Bulletmen and Steve Hayes



## Connovar (Apr 22, 2005)

I have been told that Mr. Hayes has been using a bulletman type technology in their training. Since I trained with Steve and Rumiko back in the earlier days and have also trained at RMCAT in the bulletman technology I am curious as to how they integrated it with their system. Anyone have experiece regarding that and how it integrated with the training. Steve always was an innovator which is one of things I liked about training with him. Thanks.


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## arnisador (Apr 22, 2005)

What do you mean by bulletman technology?


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## Cryozombie (Apr 22, 2005)

If I recall correctly, the Bulletmen are stress training gurus that suit up in big foam "armor" and you go full tilt on them.

The subject has been brought up about Toshindo doing this... of course people have expressed Pros and Cons to this type of training.


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## Don Roley (Apr 22, 2005)

Go to www.RMCAT.com to see some bullet men suits in action. The suits that Hayes uses is a bit different. IIRC, there is a little legal/copyright situation that prevents Him from using the thing that makes Quinn's guys look like Bullet on legs. He has to use a system that does not totally enclose the head and kneck, which has some real problems as a good bash to the head can do damage to a kneck like whiplash.


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## arnisador (Apr 22, 2005)

I've seen him quoted in ads for them.


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## Tengu6 (Apr 23, 2005)

SKH does not use the Bulletman system, he was involved at a seminar with them and thats where the quote came from in the ad's but he uses the Redman suit from Macho which can not sustain the same head and neck trauma that the Bulletman suit can.



Padded assailant training is very beneficial (imo) if used correctly. It can teach us a lot about speed and most importantly your Balance. Also, the adrenal training is great but you dont necessarily need the suit for that.



There are things padded training can provide that non padded training cant and vice versa. IMO a combo of padded and non padded training is the way to go.



Here is the redman suit.


http://www.macho.com/self.shtml

Markk Bush


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## Connovar (Apr 24, 2005)

Thanks for the redman link. It isnt the same thing. I noticed the head and groin shots were listed for "accidental" light contact. At RMCAT we were lifting the bulletmen on to their toes or off the ground sometimes with the knee shots.

Still I can see how it would help with the taijitsu since back then at least there wasnt much sparring. Its good to see taijitsu changing and growing. Some of the people I trained with were a great bunch and enjoyed training with them.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 24, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Still I can see how it would help with the taijitsu since back then at least there wasnt much sparring. Its good to see taijitsu changing and growing.


More often than not, sparring does the opposite thing for your taijutsu. The evolvement of the Takamatsuden systems does not depend on sparring.


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## Connovar (Apr 24, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> More often than not, sparring does the opposite thing for your taijutsu. The evolvement of the Takamatsuden systems does not depend on sparring.


I agree with you. Taijitsu has changed  both technically and functionally since 1981 when I first began training in the system. In the early 80's its primary focus was utilitarian combat. As such a lot of modern weapons and concepts were incorporated. For example we trained in escape and evasion using both ancient and modern concepts. Similiar we trained with both and modern weapons. However in the early 90's the focus changed to becoming more a demonstation art much like aikido, where the focus went away from a more utilitarian focus to one demonstrating the subtleties of a historical system. Given that sparring, would probably get in the way of learning subtle classical technique.


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## stephen (Apr 24, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I agree with you. Taijitsu has changed  both technically and functionally since 1981 when I first began training in the system. In the early 80's its primary focus was utilitarian combat. As such a lot of modern weapons and concepts were incorporated. For example we trained in escape and evasion using both ancient and modern concepts. Similiar we trained with both and modern weapons. However in the early 90's the focus changed to becoming more a demonstation art much like aikido, where the focus went away from a more utilitarian focus to one demonstrating the subtleties of a historical system. Given that sparring, would probably get in the way of learning subtle classical technique.


 :idunno:  ?????


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## Connovar (Apr 24, 2005)

stephen said:
			
		

> :idunno: ?????


More recent taijitsu has focused on historical reconstruction similiar to the way civil war enthusiasts recreate civil war battles and battle techniques. For example they dress up in civil war uniforms, practice volley fire and demonstrate typical battle field scenarios. In a similiar direction you have taijitsu practioners dressing up in japanese clothing wearing japanese style shoes and sometimes will even dress up in samurai costumes. They will practice fighting with and against ancient weapons such as naginata, kusarifundo etc. etc. They will demonstate classical methods fighting with a focus on each particular schools unique points.

The early taijitsu was more functional in that both modern and ancient techniques were taught with a eye towards the most functional techniques. It didnt matter whether they were modern or ancient and often were a blend. 

Of course that doesnt meen all the current taijitsu styles dont work on functionality or that the early taijitsu did not address the historically accurate aspects. It was just that one focused on one more then the other. There is nothing wrong with either focus. My brother enjoyed standing in lines and firing volleys at the opposing side with his musket and I prefered tactical handgun shooting. We both had fun and that is the bottom line in the end.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 24, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> In the early 80's its primary focus was utilitarian combat.


According to who? And how does that compare to nowadays?



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> However in the early 90's the focus changed to becoming more a demonstation art much like aikido, where the focus went away from a more utilitarian focus to one demonstrating the subtleties of a historical system.


Says who?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 24, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> More recent taijitsu has focused on historical reconstruction similiar to the way civil war enthusiasts recreate civil war battles and battle techniques.


Do you think these guys would agree?  
www.specwog.bujinkan.hr 



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> For example they dress up in civil war uniforms, practice volley fire and demonstrate typical battle field scenarios.


Come again??



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> The early taijitsu was more functional in that both modern and ancient techniques were taught with a eye towards the most functional techniques. It didnt matter whether they were modern or ancient and often were a blend.


Now here's what I've been thinking about for a while. Do you know for a fact that the focus in Japan at the time was on the same things commonly practiced in America back then?


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## Connovar (Apr 24, 2005)

I dont know for a fact what they trained in Japan at that time. I do know however what Manaka and Hatsumi taught when they came to the US in the early days and it didnt conflict with what we were doing here. I was there and I saw it. I see it now and its different. As we had joked back then the "invasion of the scroll collectors" was occurring. They in fact won.

Times have changed taijitsu had more of a paramilitary emphasis at that time and perhaps it is well that it changed in order to become more popular. Also today with all the concerns about terrorism doing the things we did back then might be problematic. For me I enjoyed it more when we trained our taijitsu outdoors even in inclement weather, practiced climbing and rappelling, did combat shooting and even practiced e and e skills in the streets of little old Germantown, Ohio. Each to their own and may each benefit in their studies.

I would imagine although I havent talked to Steve or Rumiko in many years, is that the To-Shin Do is similiar to what he did first which was to update classical taijitsu principles to a modern focus and for that I will always respect Steve.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 24, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I dont know for a fact what they trained in Japan at that time. I do know however what Manaka and Hatsumi taught when they came to the US in the early days and it didnt conflict with what we were doing here.


Suppose it was the other way around, and Hatsumi sensei simply adjusted to it...?



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> For me I enjoyed it more when we trained our taijitsu outdoors even in inclement weather, practiced climbing and rappelling, did combat shooting and even practiced e and e skills in the streets of little old Germantown, Ohio. Each to their own and may each benefit in their studies.


Funny, a lot of that doesn't really sound like *taijutsu* training to me...



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> I would imagine although I havent talked to Steve or Rumiko in many years, is that the To-Shin Do is similiar to what he did first which was to update classical taijitsu principles to a modern focus and for that I will always respect Steve.


On what basis can you say that this isn't done in the Bujinkan nowadays?


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## Don Roley (Apr 24, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> More recent taijitsu has focused on historical reconstruction similiar to the way civil war enthusiasts recreate civil war battles and battle techniques.



That is outside my experience in that art.

Yes, there is some exploration of how armor and such could alter the ways you move. But the emphisis is not on re-enacting, but rather understanding the reasons and principles in order to be free to adapt them as needed in the modern age.

Take a look at the last Daikomyosai. I did not go, but have the DVD. The mornings had Hatsumi run around in armor and detail the kata as they were used in the past. In the afternoon, he took it off and taught various ways the principles could still be used if you knew them.

I think your example of a civil war re-enactment society is off. I would say that it is closer to the way that Army officers still study civil war battles. The don't do so in order to try to fight them in the same manner. They do so because they are trying to get down principles of combat and the ways that men wage war changes so much that trying to get too specific narrows the utility.


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## Connovar (Apr 24, 2005)

> Funny, a lot of that doesn't really sound like *taijutsu* training to me...


Thus my reason for stating that it is different now than it was done in the 80's. Where you there? You see irritated for some reason. Do you expect things to stay static?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 25, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Thus my reason for stating that it is different now than it was done in the 80's. Where you there? You see irritated for some reason. Do you expect things to stay static?


I wasn't there, but many people I've talked to who were often tell me that the only reason there was so much rock climbing, firearms training, e and e, and general ninja-like activities, was because the available knowledge on taijutsu as taught in the Bujinkan (BWT, with the term taijutsu I'm referring to the most important part of Bujinkan training whatsoever - unarmed combat training) at the time was minimal compared to nowadays. I'm told that this changed to a large extent when people started travelling to Japan and noticed that the training focus there didn't have very much in common with what they were used to.

I mean, we don't want people who can disassemble an AK-47 in their sleep whilst never even having heard of kihon happo, do we...?


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## stephen (Apr 25, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> The early taijitsu was more functional in that both modern and ancient techniques were taught with a eye towards the most functional techniques. It didnt matter whether they were modern or ancient and often were a blend.




Well, it's good to know that the Americans in the 80's had it right. Too bad all that knowledge from Japan eventually came and polluted the enviroment. 


/stephen


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## Don Roley (Apr 25, 2005)

Umm... not speaking as a moderator here, just as a concerned participent in this thread.

Maybe we should kind of leave all the other issues about whether Toshindo or Bujinkan now or in the old days is better, etc outside of this conversation and keep talking about the use of armored assailent scenario training in Toshindo.

 :asian:


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## Connovar (Apr 25, 2005)

Sounds like a good idea to me as this thread is getting distracted. Has anyone here actually done the bulletman in Steve Hayes program. The bulletmen at RMCAT attack in an unscripted manner and the individual has to fight them off using whatever method they find best. Is that how Hayes does it or does he for example use the padded assailant as an opportunity to go full contact yet using a specific technique?


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## Deaf (Apr 25, 2005)

I don't know if you missed the previous post however, SKH does NOT teach or implement the "bulletman" training within his program.  He uses the "red man" suit from macho which I have participated in during their testing procedures for rank when I was training with them 

All that was done was the red man dude attacked the the student who was being tested for their next rank.  Specific attacks were used to meet the specific requirments for the next rank the student was testing for.

That was all it was.  I don't know if that is still the way it is being used today.


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## Michael Stinson (Apr 25, 2005)

From Mr. Hayes:

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/peyton.php

In To-Shin Do we do utilize various training equipment as ONE tool to our training.  Depending upon the level of training students may be asked to use gloves, chest protectors, head and face protection, arm/shin protection, etc.  These are in no way used all the time...they are for one specific type of training.

I do know the Redman suit has been utilized in Dayton during graduations, and likely it is used at other times, but I personally have not seen it brought out all that often.  The standard equipment as I mentioned above is far more common.

There are pros and cons to all types of training.  One must understand the limitations of the various methods and what you are gaining/losing while utilizing each.


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## Connovar (Apr 25, 2005)

It sounds like a reasonable way to provide some higher degrees of contact during the training process. Does the person in the redman suit resist in any significant manner during the testing process using the suits.

Another thing in bulletman training was the use of what termed "woofing"
The defender was always faced initially with various levels of verbal confrontation meant to confuse or intimidate prior to attack. Inappropriate response would always draw an attack. An appropriate response may or may not prevent an actual attack. Is something like this also being done with the redman suit?


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## Michael Stinson (Apr 25, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Another thing in bulletman training was the use of what termed "woofing"
> The defender was always faced initially with various levels of verbal confrontation meant to confuse or intimidate prior to attack. Inappropriate response would always draw an attack. An appropriate response may or may not prevent an actual attack. Is something like this also being done with the redman suit?


I can't speak for the redman suit exercises they do in Dayton as we personally don't have one in my school and I haven't really done much with them while visiting Dayton...but the idea of 'woofing' is certainly utilized. I encourage my students to play with all sorts of scenarios and methods of 'interviewing'.

'Hey...got the time?'
'Spare change mister?' - as he edges closer.
'Know the way to the bus stations?
Bump as they pass by one another.
'What are you looking at?!'
Etc.

I encourage the uke to sometimes walk away based on how the encounter develops. In some of the training I have done we have 'closed door' sessions where we pull out heavier language.

We often get loud...try to startle the uke as the attack occurs...lots of other fun stuff. Again these are more tools to play with...not the only methods of training.


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## Connovar (Apr 25, 2005)

Sounds you are doing some good work there. Steve was one of the best instructors I had in over 35 years of MA and you are lucky you get train with him. Take care.


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## Shogun (Apr 25, 2005)

I do not like the idea of a padded suit. while it can give you an idea of how hard you area capable of hitting, there is a major con.

when police get certified to carry a Tazer, or OC spray, they have to be on the recieving end so they know what it feels like, and what they are capable of doing. I beleive Taijutsu (and all martial arts) should be the same way. If you want to beat on something, buy a punching bag.


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## Connovar (Apr 25, 2005)

Frankly I am surprised Shogun that you only advocate striking a bag etc and not a living moving human being. As you know in you BJJ and NHB the value of fighting a resisting opponent with full power strikes and throws greatly advances your skills. Some systems such as taijitsu dont usually spar full contact for a variety of their own reasons. It seems to me then, that use of fully padded suits (redmen, bulletmen, etc) cannot help but add another dimension to their training. As you know it can be harder to get a solid strike against a moving, resisting  opponent than one that is standing still. Also the timing needed to hit hard against a moving target is also improved. Please explain your thoughts. Thanks.


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## Shogun (Apr 25, 2005)

Well, I was refering mainly to Taijutsu, but in NHB/MMA training, we put on gloves, and spar at normal speed. this is different, MUCH different than Taijutsu training. I dont think one High ranking Bujinkan guy on here will advocate Full contact sparring. most dont even advocate light sparring/randori. In BJJ, sparring is necessary for development of proper application. but only after you have learned the technique properly. Taijutsu contains a lot of subtle movements, strikes, holds that cannot be learned properly from hitting a bulky padded, moving object. NHB and BJJ work on larger joint locks, and basic striking patterns mostly. Those redman suits are a joke IMO. I think you should experience the pain of a technique so you can fully understand this. 


KE


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## Connovar (Apr 25, 2005)

I presently train in both boxing and BJJ so I know where you come from and I can appreciate it. However one of the reasons I ultimately left the bujinkan was because of experiencing high level (5th Dan) taijitsu practioners fumble when the technique was put to the text by an aggressive resisting partner. As such it seemed like some level of sparring with contact would be helpfull if they so desired it. For example there is no good reason they could not simply grapple full speed just like we do with BJJ. The rules for submission would be followed and like at some BJJ schools the more dangerous locks such as ankle locks would not be allowed untill they are experienced in the control.

Striking arts could be done the same with of course some targets removed for safety reasons. Redmen suits if they arent too cumbersome could allow some reasonable high contact btw participant and thus increase the "aliveness" of the training. The ability to successfullyapply a technique against a fully resisting partner is the best way I know of to deermine if you have mastered a technique.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 25, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> For example there is no good reason they could not simply grapple full speed just like we do with BJJ.


Yes there is.



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> The rules for submission would be followed...


Mm-hmm. We all choose our own goals I guess. Mine is not to follow rules.



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> Striking arts could be done the same with of course some targets removed for safety reasons.


That would mean watering down the training, not upgrading it.



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> The ability to successfullyapply a technique against a fully resisting partner is the best way I know of to deermine if you have mastered a technique.


It is also a very good way to see if one's focus in training is to master techniques, or concepts.


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## Connovar (Apr 25, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Yes there is.


 

While I dont think it would be of much value to rehash the old nonsparring/sparring arguement here, with the mods permission I would like you to describe to me in detail why you cant do taijitsu technique full speed. This would be especially interesting because I use some of the taijitsu techniques I learned in exactly that way while doing BJJ


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## stephen (Apr 25, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> This would be especially interesting because I use some of the taijitsu *techniques* I learned in exactly that way while doing BJJ



Exactly!


/steve


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## Cryozombie (Apr 25, 2005)

As always, as members you have permission to post whatever you like, PROVIDING it stays within the rules of martial talk AND it stays polite.   I'm watching this thread, and I don't want to have to put my Mod hat on becuase it gets out of line.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 26, 2005)

I'm going to take the easy way out.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/sportmartialarts.html

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifedueling.htm


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## Don Roley (Apr 26, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> While I dont think it would be of much value to rehash the old nonsparring/sparring arguement here, with the mods permission I would like you to describe to me in detail why you cant do taijitsu technique full speed.



Well, if I could step in and deal with one issue....

I know that joint locks, etc can't be done at full speed and full force unless you want some damage done even if they are wearing one of these suits. Peytonn Quinn admits that his suits can't prevent damage from a _seoi nage_ bending the elbow joint the opposite way it was designed- and his suits are the best in the business. But his stuff is still one more tool you can use to expand your training potential.


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## Connovar (Apr 26, 2005)

My thoughts are that a bulletman or redman suit used with Taijitsu training may offer some middle ground btw sport full contact sparring and light contact sparring. I only suggest since I trained in the both the taijitsu world  and the MMA world and can see some merits of both sides positions regarding whether or not to spar to advance skills. I obviously might be biased because I have always liked to spar in one form or another.

The actual bulletman fighting methods actually a utilize what is very similiar to an ichimonji no kamae when facing off against an aggressor. However the hands are directed palm forword as postural signal for the aggressor to keep back. Initial strikes against the head then utilize palm strikes, eye strikes with the thumb(similiar) to the boshi(sp) utilized in taijitsu and elbows. Kicks were primarily shin or instep kicks to the groin and knees to groin and lower abdomen. So in some aspects it has a lot of similarity to taijitsu and works very well against aggressive hard charging opponents.


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## shinbushi (Apr 26, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I dont think one High ranking Bujinkan guy on here will advocate Full contact sparring. most dont even advocate light sparring/randori.
> KE


 Actually there are a few :wink:


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## Michael Stinson (Apr 26, 2005)

shinbushi said:
			
		

> Actually there are a few :wink:


Heh...I was thinking about you, but didn't want to bring you into it


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## Shogun (Apr 27, 2005)

Oh yeah...I forgot about you....sorry....ha haha.

I like Randori, but the way it should be done is much different than "sparring". look at two aikidoka perform Randori. this is the way i like it. kinda like in Seago-san's video clip.


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## Connovar (Apr 30, 2005)

Thats right it is different because the type of training that is needed to truly learn a technique is one that is alive. Aikido sparring is still just a variation of dead training, but it is fun to do and fun to watch.


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## Shogun (Apr 30, 2005)

> it is fun to do and fun to watch


Darn tootin!


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## arnisador (May 1, 2005)

Agreed--Aikido randori sure sends bodies flying far and wide!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 1, 2005)

Dead training comes out of dead minds. No amount of sparring will take care of those.


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## Connovar (May 1, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Dead training comes out of dead minds. No amount of sparring will take care of those.


Since 99% of bujinkan training is dead are you sure you still want to say that?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 1, 2005)

That is your definition. Not all agree, certainly not those with insight in the aforementioned system.


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## Don Roley (May 1, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Since 99% of bujinkan training is dead are you sure you still want to say that?



That may be your experience with the training from the old days under Hayes influence, but it is not really what I see where I am. It all depends on your definition of "dead." If you mean, "non-sport" then you are probably right. But slowly the idea that kata training is not just going through a dance with your partner is spreading out from Japan.


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## Connovar (May 1, 2005)

Its okay that the training is by definition primarily dead training, since the intent of the system is not to create fighters. The system is designed for people who want to recreate historic japanese warefare much like the SCA recreates medieval warfare. That is okay. Its just not designed to create fighters for the modern environment. Bye the way I trained in the system for eleven years and taught for five years so I am reasonably knowledgable in the system.


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## Deaf (May 2, 2005)

Dead training?  Recreate historic japanese warfare?  Not designed to create fighters for the modern environment?

Bold statements there and to be honest with you, totally full of crap.  If that is the case then please explain to me why soo many law enforcement, military, personal security agencies etc.  train within the system and highly regard it as a very effective system?

~Deaf~

Oh and 1 quick question... 11 years in what system?  SKH's system or actual bujinkan?  Good thing you quit teaching huh!




			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> Its okay that the training is by definition primarily dead training, since the intent of the system is not to create fighters. The system is designed for people who want to recreate historic japanese warefare much like the SCA recreates medieval warfare. That is okay. Its just not designed to create fighters for the modern environment. Bye the way I trained in the system for eleven years and taught for five years so I am reasonably knowledgable in the system.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 2, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Its okay that the training is by definition primarily dead training, since the intent of the system is not to create fighters. The system is designed for people who want to recreate historic japanese warefare much like the SCA recreates medieval warfare. That is okay. Its just not designed to create fighters for the modern environment. Bye the way I trained in the system for eleven years and taught for five years so I am reasonably knowledgable in the system.


From this I can only rule out that you haven't bothered to read earlier posts in this thread and that you lack understanding of taijutsu training. It almost sounds like you are trying to tell us, the practitioners of said system, how we should be training in order to fit in with your biased view of the Bujinkan?


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## Kreth (May 2, 2005)

====================
Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Kreth
-MT Moderator-

====================


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## rutherford (May 2, 2005)

It wasn't obvious until the last post by Connovar but it should be now.

 :feedtroll


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## Connovar (May 2, 2005)

Let me put it this way. One of the things I enjoyed the most from the bujinkan was using the Bo and in my own subjective opinion I was reasonably good with it. Its a lot of fun to train with. I enjoyed training the traditional kata that utilized it. However under no circumstance would I consider myself a bo fighter (if there was such a term). The reason is simple. I have never gone full free sparring moderate to heavy contact with a bo where my objective was to defeat my opponent while he is doing the same to me. Thus I have no true fighting experience with the bo.

Alive training requires you to go full contact full speed sparring fighting (whatever term you want) to demonstate you can pull off the techniques under the dynamics of a fight. I have not seen bujinkan members do that but thats ok, they are not trying to be fighters. The only objective evidence I have seen is that bujinkan students can perform  traditional taijitsu techniques within the rigid guidelines of two man kata, or pehaps multiperson demonstrations where the individuals are not trying to defeat each other.If you have video clips of exceptions I would like to see them.

I have never seen Hatsumi, Hoban etc demonstrate such ability either. They are wonderfull at demonstating certain techniques and for that they should be commended, but they have never demonstrated their ability to fight at least as far as I know. (Again, if anyone has an video or even documented written proof I would appreciate  your sharing it.

This is my basis for describing the bujinkan as a demonstration system and not a fighting system.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 2, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Alive training requires you to go full contact full speed sparring fighting (whatever term you want) to demonstate you can pull off the techniques under the dynamics of a fight. I have not seen bujinkan members do that but thats ok, they are not trying to be fighters.


That's right. Not fighters. Warriors.

Furthermore, alive training as we see it in the Bujinkan, is something that requires uke and tori to train and attack with intent and the correct distance to actually do damage. It requires that the individuals themselves find the correct dynamics to deploy - hence the oft heard phrase, "this stuff cannot be taught, it has to be discovered for yourself".

Then there is the issue of sparring with weapons. From my perspective, kata training or, if you prefer "combat scenarios" with heightened intensity and lesser margins of error than usual, is far closer to the real thing than regular sparring matches. Because sparring, by it's very nature, fosters a give-and-take mentality. And with weapons such as bo staffs and swords, if you mess up during the initial contact, you cannot and should not count on being able to correct that mistake. There is no room for a sparring mentality when just being touched will harm you. And being touched multiple times will kill you. The intent and focus of what you're doing HAS to reflect the degree of danger inherent in the situation.



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> I have never seen Hatsumi, Hoban etc demonstrate such ability either. They are wonderfull at demonstating certain techniques and for that they should be commended, but they have never demonstrated their ability to fight at least as far as I know. (Again, if anyone has an video or even documented written proof I would appreciate your sharing it.


Seek up the aforementioned individuals and attack them for yourself. In the case of uncle H, he has clearly stated at taikais and elsewhere that he accepts and deals with whatever attack you feel like using against him. 

You really should have been training a bit more before you state things like this...


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## Connovar (May 2, 2005)

Hmmmm a warrior. What wars have you fought in. To many claim the title of warrior when they have never fought in a war. I dont claim it because I have never fought in a war. I have fought many times, but never in a war. 

The best way to learn to swim is to swim. You come to me and say you can swim. So I say there is a pool and show me. Instead you say, we have practiced swimming strokes in the shallow end and you even demonstrate to me some nice strokes such as the crawl, side stroke etch while you are standing the shallow end. Would you call yourself a swimmer at this time. I certainly hope not. However if you could show yourself going back and forth across a deep pool you would then be a swimmer.

Its the same way with fighting. The best way to learn to fight is fight. Its been proven that way in virtually all the combative arts whether it is fencing, boxing, wrestling, judo etc etc. You learn some techniques and you practice them and then try them out by fighting.  I hadnt seen much of any fighting in the bujinkan during my years with them, but they do nicely demonstrate technique.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 2, 2005)

Unfortunately, with the swimming analogy, people tend to confuse their backyard pool with the ocean.

:CTF:


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## Connovar (May 2, 2005)

Its certainly better to swim in a pool before you try tackling the ocean!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 2, 2005)

It is not, however, the same thing. Fooling oneself into thinking that they are is a dangerous mistake.

And before we go any further, I might as well rehash this old issue as well: it is well known that the average Bujinkan practitioner has a lousy understanding of kihon compared to what is preferable. Before that issue is solved, we have other things to worry about than how and when we should employ sparring as a regular addition to training.


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## MisterMike (May 2, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> This is my basis for describing the bujinkan as a demonstration system and not a fighting system



I'm thinking that maybe you are just new to the martial arts in general, making statements like this. I've never heard of a demonstration system. It could be your own term, or one that helps you differentiate -DO styles from -JUTSU styles, but it just isn't commonly used in conversation.



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> The best way to learn to fight is fight



Not really. The best way to die is to get into a lot of fights.



			
				Connovar said:
			
		

> Its been proven that way in virtually all the combative arts whether it is fencing, boxing, wrestling, judo etc etc.



Fencing, boxing, wrestling and judo are not combative arts. Most have been turned into sports.

I'm not going to nitpick everything you've put down, but would rather you look a little longer and a lot deeper at the Bujinkan and martial arts in general before making any final statements on their application to "real" combat, whatever form it takes.


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## Connovar (May 2, 2005)

Demonstration art is a much better way to describe it then calling it a fighting art, simply because the practioners dont fight. That is unless you can show evidence that they truly do fight. As I said earlier I spent 11 years in the bujinkan and never once saw anyone fight. Lots of kata's etc, lots of talking about what ifs, but never fighting.

I am not dead so I guess fighting isnt as deadly as you think it is. This has included competitive and street fights. Many martial arts have difficulty making the transition from dojo to street, but at least most of them fight. I seriously doubt the ancient japanese never sparred in their training. Does it say in the scrolls that they should never spar?


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## rutherford (May 2, 2005)

Connovar, first you've taken this thread way off topic.  Whether there is sparring in the Bujinkan and whether there should be sparring in the Bujinkan is not really appropriate for the Toshindo forum.  There are several very long threads on sparring in the Bujinkan, if you want to revive one of them go ahead.

However, you'll find that all of them are filled with personal perspectives, as each has their own take on the art.  Some dojo do more sparring than others.  The Bujinkan Chicago Dojo comes to mind, as well as Shihan David Dow's Bujinkan Anko Dojo (shinbushi, posted to this thread but ignored by you).

Some dojo do more sport fighting than others.  Shihan Greg Kowalski's career as a bare-knuckle and point-karate tournament fighter comes to mind.

Second, your comments about "demonstration art" are insulting and show your personal agenda.  You're making sweeping generalizations about an art which you left (assuming we believe you were ever a member).  You're spreading disinformation and trolling, plain and simple.

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a combat art and battlefield tested.  There are Bujinkan members who have used their skills for survival, and there are Bujinkan members around the world at war right now.

Connovar, good luck with your training.  I hope you never need to use it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 2, 2005)

If it wasn't for this being an internet forum, I'd say Connovar is arguing merely because he likes the sound of his own voice. I'm going to keep away from this debate until he stops making sweeping biased generalisations and starts responding to the arguments of myself and others. Even then, I'd prefer if we could take it in the more appropriately named thread.


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## Connovar (May 2, 2005)

Actually the title is regarding bullet men. Bulletmen are used as part of sparring training. I was hoping that Steve Hayes was perhaps incorporating some sort of live training in his dojo. It doesnt sound like anyone here has much experience with that. I left the bujinkan because after many years of training and watching results from that training, it became clear the bujinkan system is a very poor system for training individuals to fight. Its a great system if you want to learn techniques but does not do well at giving individuals the skills to apply them in real life. There are 3 valid reasons not to spar. 1)being physically unable, 2)dojo insurance issues 3)fear of getting hurt which translates into less people training and less income for the school.The use of bulletmen and/red man suite would help with no 2 and no3 and perhaps even no 1.

If this is a combat art, when was the last time any of you were in combat?


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## Cryozombie (May 2, 2005)

-MOD NOTE-

KEEP THIS CONVERSATION POLITE AND ON TOPIC.  One Moderator warning has gone ignored, DO NOT ignore a second one.

-Technopunk
-MT SENIOR MODERATOR


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## Shogun (May 2, 2005)

I still am not liking the idea of a "pillow" suit in which people beat on. it reminds me of a kid's class in Karate where they take turns hitting the bag.


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## Tgace (May 2, 2005)

Body padding is only a tool that is useful to demonstrate specific points...much like simunitions is a great tool in gun circles. However you arent going to train a new shooter entirely with simunitions weapons.

I dont think anybody is saying the bulletman suit is being used for ALL training.


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## Connovar (May 2, 2005)

I have no experience with redman suits, but from first hand knowledge I can say the trained bulletman dont let you just hit on them. Essentially they come in very hard and very fast. They will attempt to tie you up and take you to the ground and are actively trying to counter you techniques. The defender is actively trying to land hard accurate shots to sensitive spots on the attacker which of course are padded. For example the groin is heavily padded enough to take full power kicks to the groin. You can do full power strikes to the eyes etc. And these guys move fast. I see this as a method of getting some of the advantages of sparring without all the injuries.As an addition to sparring it allows to attack targets you normally coudnt due to safety restrictions. Therefore it could be usefull for those systems that dont spar and yet also be valuable to systems that do.


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## Tgace (May 2, 2005)

Agreed..bulletman/redman suits are extremely useful. Regardless of the "you should know what it feels like" philosophy, you just cannot deal out and should not take that kind of damage on a regular training basis....


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## r erman (May 2, 2005)

Lot of different topics being discussed in this thread...

As far as body suit training goes, there are some awesome applications for using it.  It is not like kids karate...Look at a RMCAT video.  Or, maybe better, Tony Blauer and his HIGH GEAR(his suit) training.  You cannot do a lot of what they do without it.  Period.

As far as sparring.  There are major benefits.  I've concluded--after many threads here and on other boards--that it is no longer worth the time to argue why isolated or not-so-isolated sparring is an important _part_ of training.  If people feel that they are consistently generating results with the way they are training, then more power to them.  I have a different training paradigm, based on my experience.  

One thing that was touched on that hasn't really been answered was the question about sparring in Japan.  Yes, warriors in Japan sparred.  Non-lethal duels between swordsmen were common.  Many samurai practiced sumo to add a non-cooperative base and augment their jujutsu/taijutsu.  In the Edo-period, taryu jiai was common amongst different jujutsu schools.  In the Meiji era this was common as well--the founder of Judo studied two systems of jujutsu that had randori as an important part of the training along with kata geiko.

One of my favorite historical quotes, from around the year 1700, in a Kenjutsu treatise called Heiho Zakki by Yamada Heizaemon:



> in order to really reach an understanding of mortal combat it is necessary for both adepts to don men, kote, and other pieces of protective equipment and forge oneself through the confusion encountered by engaging in daring unrestricted training.


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## Cryozombie (May 2, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I have no experience with redman suits, but from first hand knowledge I can say the trained bulletman dont let you just hit on them. Essentially they come in very hard and very fast. They will attempt to tie you up and take you to the ground and are actively trying to counter you techniques. The defender is actively trying to land hard accurate shots to sensitive spots on the attacker which of course are padded. For example the groin is heavily padded enough to take full power kicks to the groin. You can do full power strikes to the eyes etc. And these guys move fast. I see this as a method of getting some of the advantages of sparring without all the injuries.As an addition to sparring it allows to attack targets you normally coudnt due to safety restrictions. Therefore it could be usefull for those systems that dont spar and yet also be valuable to systems that do.


 Im curious to know, if they are that heavily padded, and you are landing blows that they can shrug off, how do they react realistically to them?  if they are coming full force and you whack em in the... family jewels... do they react like they were popped in them, or keep coming?  What about shots to kusho points designed to open a larger target or facilitate a throw, how do these suits work in those situations, or are they best for, well... standard, Blocking, punching and kicking?


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## Shogun (May 2, 2005)

Thats almost pretty much what I was gonna say. If the idea is to hit vital areas and sensitive areas, and they are padded, than there is no reaction or response from the attacker. This makes this type of training more useless. in the beginning, I was only against it slightly, but now that you are SUPPOSED to hit padded vital areas, with no response, than I just dont get it.

Having done a little Kali, I know that the some of the systems (ex; sayoc) use "flinching" or automatic responses to create openings. Budo Taijutsu does this too. please explain the purpose of these suits, because I am a little confused.


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## Connovar (May 2, 2005)

Its dangerous to assume an attacker will respond to an attack in a specific manner. People dont always respond to pain like you would expect. Personally I was once attacked and the first strike was a knee to the groin hard enough to raise me on my toes. I was then thrown the hood of a car and my head was slammed repeatedly backwards onto the hood.I should have been done at that time but all I remember was how pissed I was that the guy had kneed me in the balls. Without further details I walked away winning that one. The point of that story is if you today kicked me in the balls and bounced my head a few times off a car hood I would definitely be out of it, but the emotional tone allowed the body to override the pain response. 

As such the bulletmen are only to react to mulitple powerfull blow to an open area before responding. In this manner the defender is taught to proceed with their defense in  a very aggressive manner. It is expected that your attacker will probably be high on drugs and/or in a psychotic state and as such they will be resistant to the strikes you throw and not to be surprised about having to continue to aggressively continue the defense.


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## arnisador (May 2, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Its dangerous to assume an attacker will respond to an attack in a specific manner.


 Agreed. Some arts assume this and I think it's bad unless one explores all reasonable oucomes.


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## Cryozombie (May 3, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Its dangerous to assume an attacker will respond to an attack in a specific manner.


 I understand this, and to a certain extent I agree with it... however... 

 If you lose a certain amount of assumption you may as well forget training techniques alltogether.

 If you dont Assume kicking someones legs out from under them will make them fall, why learn to kick someones legs out from under them?  If you dont assume striking someone in the face will make them react to getting struck in the face, why learn to punch?

 I would tend to believe, from past experience, that everyone reacts differently, and yes, you will run into people who are not going to respond the way you anticipate, however... this is why your toolbox of techniques does not contain 1 single technique honed to perfection, but many many many tools you can put to use if one should fail you.  I would tend to believe that 90% of people, whom if struck in the face with a proper, hard solid blow, will react to that blow, and for the 10% who dont, you have the leg sweep.  

 So, again, if the Bulletmen are not going to react to a hit, because you cannot assume someone would, why bother training with them?  All it will teach you, based on that assumption, is that you will lose a fight.


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## Tgace (May 3, 2005)

Being able to whack away at somebody w/o fear of injuring him or you is a good thing...I dont see any problem with it at all, unless its done to the point where technique is being neglected. Working with somebody in an environment where the opponent never gives you any resistance is more a recipe for failure than training with this stuff IMO. 

Some people have never given or recieved a full force leg sweep against a moving opponent.....


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## Michael Stinson (May 3, 2005)

In reading over this thread it appears some of you really do not understand the point of the bulletman training that is done at RMCat or even how it is done.  The following is an article that describes one individuals experiences with it:

http://www.realfighting.com/0102/rmcat.htm

In particular to answer some assumptions placed into this thread:



> The bullet men do not drop or give up until they feel a certain number of techniques landed with enough power [through their padded suits] to incapacitate a real opponent. Also, the level of attack (against a student) is measured on a student-by-student basis, depending on, size, weight, sex, strength, etc.


All in all if you don't like this type of training cool...don't do it.  If you do, great, do it.


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## Cruentus (May 3, 2005)

My first time hearing about padded suit training was from Mr. Quinn's book "Real Fighting." I will say that at the time, having been mostly focused  the training methods in my art(s), I was very impressed by the book, and by the method. I desperately wanted to try padded suit training to see it's strenghts and limitations, as it appeared to be a sound training tool.

What I found from other martial artists at the time was a different story; a lot of naysaying from people who had no experience with padded suit training, or had instructors who didn't advocate padded suit training. The attitude boils down in its simplicity too: "because we don't do it, then it must be inferior."

I find this to be the trend in all martial arts. Many people seem to basically be expressing, "because we don't do it, then it must be inferior..." Obviously, though, this sort of thinking is not condusive of maximizing the effectiveness your combat training.

The mistake we run into here is in thinking that our _training_ fully mirrors reality. You want your training to be as applicable to reality (and increasing your skill for reality) as you can, but because by nature it IS TRAINING and not the real thing, you will run into limitations. I do not feel that there is 1 best way. And, you do yourself a disservice if you think that your full contact sparring, or aikido randori, or padded suit training, or taijutsu practice, or whatever, is EXACTLY what what real combat is like (or 'the best' substitute thereof). For those many martial artists who exhibit this narrow way of thinking, I hope for your safety that you never actually have to find out where your training is lacking during the unforgiving environment of a real encounter. 

Every training method has limitations, thus why it is called _training_ rather then _combat_ or _fighting_. No matter which method(s) you choose, a big contributer in being prepared for a real encounter is not in just in the effectiveness of the method, but in understanding where the method is weak so that you can be prepared for necessary adjustments needed for combat.

That all said, padded suit training does have limitations, just as every training method does.

However, it has some great advantages as well that other methods have difficulty in matching. I am proud to say that I am an associate instructor in a group that frequently incorporates padded suit training (livesafeacademy), and I have even been in the suit as the assailent myself. What a great experience.

I say that padded suit training, when done right, is a great method. Everyone should try it at least once, regardless of your martial discipline.

Paul


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## Cruentus (May 3, 2005)

Also, just to clear up a misconception:

As a padded instructor, you can gauge how hard the student is striking, where they are striking, and how effective they are hitting to be able to respond accordingly. If you are a good role player, you can make the scenario training very realistic.

Paul


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## Don Roley (May 3, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> The mistake we run into here is in thinking that our _training_ fully mirrors reality. You want your training to be as applicable to reality (and increasing your skill for reality) as you can, but because by nature it IS TRAINING and not the real thing, you will run into limitations. I do not feel that there is 1 best way. And, you do yourself a disservice if you think that your full contact sparring, or aikido randori, or padded suit training, or taijutsu practice, or whatever, is EXACTLY what what real combat is like (or 'the best' substitute thereof). For those many martial artists who exhibit this narrow way of thinking, I hope for your safety that you never actually have to find out where your training is lacking during the unforgiving environment of a real encounter.



Have you read Bob Orlando? He has a great quote somewhere in one of his books. It goes, "All training is a simulation of training. The key word is 
_simulation._"

I too like Peytonn Quinn and trained under him very, very briefly. I was wondering about something. When I checked the link to the red man suits there was a quote by SKH in the business package section. That package has an instructor suit and several students suits. Quinn has the students go through their stuff without any sort of armor. Does Toshindo differ in this aspect?

And if I read post #22 correctly, it would seem that this is not really used for training, but for testing. Is that correct? Quinn does not do it that way. I am rather disapointed if it is true.


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## Cryozombie (May 3, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> As a padded instructor, you can gauge how hard the student is striking, where they are striking, and how effective they are hitting to be able to respond accordingly.


 Paul, Ah-ha. You hit on the heart of my problem with this type of training, and, after reading this I understand better where MY hangup comes from...

  can I amend this Quote???

*If you are a GOOD instructor, you can guage...*

 Here is my experience with this "type" of training, take it for what it is worth... to all of you probably nothing... Back when I studied Hapkido we had somthing like a redman suit we used for the shcools "Womens Self Defense Program"... The "bad Guy" would put it on and attack women, and they responded.

 One of the Blackbelts decided this was a good tool for his "Street Sparring" class. (Different from the point sparring class, because you could strike the head, legs and use sweeps) He would put it on and you would "fight". He always... ALWAYS... kicked the snot out of me, and everyone else, because he ignored EVERYTHING we threw at him. My blows to the suit were totaly innefective in ways that sparring people out of the suit were not... becuase the suit was armor for him, more than a training tool for us. It used to frustrate me, because it made me feel like i couldnt DO anything.  I would equate it to imagining someone pissed you off, but they were in their car, so all you could do was beat your fist on their windshied while they laughed at you.


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## Connovar (May 3, 2005)

Clearly the best training is full contact and full resistance with minumum protective gear and rules. However there are injury issues etc. jBulletmen are not without their problems but it can very successfully recreate the adrenalin stress and dynamics that are in a real fight. I dont think it would have much use for sport training. For example I am planning on sending my two daughters to a program which utilizes them. Neither of them have ever experienced what a really violent attack feels like and I think this exposure plus learning to apply techniques within that stress environment is the best way I can prepare them to defend themselves if they ever need to. 

I now box and do bjj for fun, but I would never try to classically box or try to take my opponent to the ground and armbar him in the real deal. My experience has been that only the simple things work when the crap hits the fan and the type of simple techniques that are used in bulletman training are the kind that work for real.


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## Tgace (May 3, 2005)

You can do stupid training with simunitions too, because everybody knows they are not real guns and you are not going to be killed.... its not about the equipment, its about the training.


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## Shogun (May 3, 2005)

I am not totally downplaying the ideas of bulletman, I just dont agree with it for reasons myself and technopunk brought up. and no, you cant assume someone is going to react a certain way, but you should at least have an idea of the types of openings. some of the attacks given will have automatic responses. stuff the body cant control. when the eyes are damaged, the hands will ALWAYS come up, as much as you fight it. ever been sprayed with OC? your hands WILL come up. you WILL go into Rhinorhea. same thing with the arm being cut or the neck. your other hand will support it. I can see bulletman being used for letting someone know how hard they can hit or grapple without breaking a hand or foot against a live target but to me, thats the extent.


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## Tgace (May 3, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I am not totally downplaying the ideas of bulletman, I just dont agree with it for reasons myself and technopunk brought up. and no, you cant assume someone is going to react a certain way, but you should at least have an idea of the types of openings. some of the attacks given will have automatic responses. stuff the body cant control. when the eyes are damaged, the hands will ALWAYS come up, as much as you fight it. ever been sprayed with OC? your hands WILL come up. you WILL go into Rhinorhea. same thing with the arm being cut or the neck. your other hand will support it. I can see bulletman being used for letting someone know how hard they can hit or grapple without breaking a hand or foot against a live target but to me, thats the extent.


True, but when are you ever going to use full power on another living, reacting person in training anyway? If you are doing that to each other on a regular basis to see "how a person is really going to react" I wouldnt stay around for too long. I plan on living a long tome and prefer to do it still with eyes, functioning joints etc.


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## Shogun (May 3, 2005)

Also true, but when are you gonna get attacked by a giant pillow who does not respond to automatic human reaction?


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## Tgace (May 3, 2005)

I dont know what the debate here is about...does SKH use this stuff all the time? To the detriment of technique training? Or is this just a case of "if he does it Im against it"?


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## Dale Seago (May 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I dont know what the debate here is about...does SKH use this stuff all the time? To the detriment of technique training? Or is this just a case of "if he does it Im against it"?



What I gathered from earlier in the thread is that he uses it for specific purposes, not as a general tool/methodology for free-sparring, and I think that has value.

What I don't like -- and this is just me, personally -- is the way some others use it in more general sparring practice, doing a lot of striking and kicking which wouldn't be effective against an armored opponent. If the way you train  is the way you fight, you should instead be using the methods we've developed over centuries to fight people wearing battle armor.


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## r erman (May 3, 2005)

> some of the attacks given will have automatic responses. stuff the body cant control. when the eyes are damaged, the hands will ALWAYS come up, as much as you fight it.



Actually I was going to post something similar to this yesterday.  Extension and retraction of the limbs is one of the few reactions you can reliably count on--but they aren't absolutes.  

And, btw, normally when the head is attacked--especially the eyes--the hands go out before they come in.  It is a flinch reaction of the body to regain balance.  The arms normally retract when a solid body shot is delivered.


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## Tgace (May 3, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> What I gathered from earlier in the thread is that he uses it for specific purposes, not as a general tool/methodology for free-sparring, and I think that has value.
> 
> What I don't like -- and this is just me, personally -- is the way some others use it in more general sparring practice, doing a lot of striking and kicking which wouldn't be effective against an armored opponent. If the way you train is the way you fight, you should instead be using the methods we've developed over centuries to fight people wearing battle armor.


Is this stuff being used to "simulate" armor? In my experience redman suits are just a tool to "let loose" on every once and a while, just a means to experience really throwing full force shots on a moving, thinking target without injury. The padding is meant to simulate body parts, not real armor.


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## Tengu6 (May 3, 2005)

This discussion has been hashed and rehashed so many times, that is why I have avoided it but Dale brings up something I completely agree with.

Using padding is a great tool if used properly. Making it the basis of a martial arts program is a mistake, IMO. The way RMCAT uses it is good. It uses 5 or 6 simple but effective techniques. Thier training is not to see if they can effectively apply the technique so much as it is to overcome the adrenal stess. Very effective IMO. 

I personaly use the padding to teach what it is like to deal with an attacker using full mass......meaning, he is plowing through you. What you learn from this is balance and use of kukan....two crucial factors. IMO, padding can be an effective tool if it is understood and used correctly.

Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (May 3, 2005)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> The way RMCAT uses it is good. It uses 5 or 6 simple but effective techniques. Thier training is not to see if they can effectively apply the technique so much as it is to overcome the adrenal stess



Which brings up the question I am trying to find an answer to. Post #22 of this thread says that the way Toshindo uses the redman suit is to test certain techniques for belt tests only. The emphisis seems to be not on using the suits to get the person used to dealing with adrenal stress situations. Is this really the case?


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## arnisador (May 3, 2005)

How does the manufacturer recommendit be used?


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## Tengu6 (May 3, 2005)

Don, the Quest curriculum does not use the adrenal stress training as RMCAT does. As SKH puts it, "the suits are used to apply a little more speed and intensity". I suppose on a certain level the adreanal effect comes into play but not at all like it is addressed with RMCAT training.

I suppose a point to bring up is that not all Quest Centers operate the same. Although that was the intention, many Quest instructors teach thier own way. My previous instructor who operates a Quest Center (I was there through the Quest Center trainsition) trains regularly with Soke and Shiraishi sensei. My point in mentioning this is only to say that it is possible that the Adrenal training is implemented in other Quest schools, but not likely if they havent recieved proper training.
Markk Bush


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## Shogun (May 4, 2005)

> And, btw, normally when the head is attacked--especially the eyes--the hands go out before they come in. It is a flinch reaction of the body to regain balance. The arms normally retract when a solid body shot is delivered.


Having witnessed many people being sprayed, and having been sprayed, when the eyes go out, the hands come up. the hands shooting out isnt guaranteed. the head also jerks back. and yes, when the body is hit, flinching occurs. so if someone is hit while wearing a suit, no flinching would happen, and if it did, it wouldnt be as much. I think the adrenal part of it is good, like dale said, specific purposes. 


> you should instead be using the methods we've developed over centuries to fight people wearing battle armor.


so basically dont punch and kick like you would an unarmored person.


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## Cruentus (May 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Paul, Ah-ha. You hit on the heart of my problem with this type of training, and, after reading this I understand better where MY hangup comes from...
> 
> can I amend this Quote???
> 
> ...



Techno,

You described what I feel is a mistake made by a lot of padded suit instructors; a mistake that actually moves the training away from reality rather then towards it.

From what I heard from other instructors, when the FIST suit was first introduced to the LE community, it wasn't being properly used. Instructors weren't reacting realistically or helping to build confidence of the officers, they were just beating the crap out of them. Now, though, the training has evolved.

The thing with being a suited instructor or role player, you have to actually train to be able to create realistic scenario's and to respond realistically. You can't just put the suit on and fight people like a stay puffed marshmello man who is invincable to techniques and expect them to get anything out of it.

Also, someone mentioned adrenal stress training, and I wanted to reiterate that scenario training is the single best way to create adrenal stress (outside of a realistic situation), and the suit is a great enhancement for that.


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## r erman (May 5, 2005)

> Having witnessed many people being sprayed, and having been sprayed, when the eyes go out, the hands come up



OC creates a different reaction all together.  We are discussing impact from a physical assualt, I thought.  You are right about the head going back, though.


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## Connovar (May 5, 2005)

My problem with OC sprays are all the fine muscle movements required to deploy it. You need to pull it out of the pocket, identify which end is the nozzle, turn off an safety device, hopefully know the wind direction and then you can spray. During our bulletman training especially in the early fights I witnessed several times people for example raise their hand back to swing a club and the club went flying out of their hands because they lost their grip under stress, I also saws knives dropped as they tried to deploy them. During a high stress incident this sort of behavior is common and I wonder if I could effectively employ an OC spray. I think I will settle for a kobutan instead.


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## Tgace (May 5, 2005)

I dunno, Ive seen OC employed in some pretty "high stress" situations without much trouble...besides spraying your partner or yourself in the process....


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## Connovar (May 5, 2005)

I am thinking of oc spray for your average civilian type. I would expect law enforcement officers etc would have better training and more experience with high stress events.


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## Cryozombie (May 5, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I think I will settle for a kobutan instead.


An excellent choice of small concealable, MOSTLY legal weapon.


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## Tgace (May 5, 2005)

Talking about "fine motor skills"...as an impact weapon its great...try getting a finger lock with one once the fists are flying.


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## Connovar (May 5, 2005)

I have never trained it except as a way of delivering blows. I always thought using it for armlocks etc was kind of silly.If I am willing to go for a submission then I dont need to use a weapon both ethically and legally


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## Cruentus (May 6, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I am thinking of oc spray for your average civilian type. I would expect law enforcement officers etc would have better training and more experience with high stress events.



My experience and others experiences with role playing OC are as follows:

If a person is able to get it out before the attacker is on top of them delevering attacks (even if it is only a second before) the success rate of being able to point and shoot the OC into the other guys face is pretty high.

If, however, their attacker is on top of them delivering attacks before they are able to get to their OC, then it is much more difficult for them to deploy the OC. At this point they have to get the threat to stop (or pause) through distancing techniques and empty hand force methods before I would recommend even attampting to get the OC out. Basically, at this point, the likelyhood of error is MUCH greater then if the OC was out before the physical violence.

So, as I trian/tell people, and as the company I am affiliated with that does OC training more specifically trains people: OC is not your silver bullet. It is part of a totality of your defense training. 

I know I am stating the obvious to most of you here, but how many times have you run into someone (usually a woman) who buys pepper spray at the store and expects that it will keep them out of harms way without any training at all? I have seen it lots. They need use of force training for their OC to truely be reliable.

Paul


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## Tgace (May 6, 2005)

True...I have the luxury of a batman utility belt with an OC holster. I keep the can stored in a specific manner so I can draw it ready to go.


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## Connovar (May 6, 2005)

I totally agree. To carry a weapon and not be properly trained in its use is an invitation for disaster.


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## Shogun (May 6, 2005)

> True...I have the luxury of a batman utility belt with an OC holster. I keep the can stored in a specific manner so I can draw it ready to go.


someimes its easy for us to forget not everyone carries around a duty belt and gear


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## arnisador (May 6, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> To carry a weapon and not be properly trained in its use is an invitation for disaster.


 Yes, I absolutely agree. That's just looking for it to be taken from you and used against you.


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## Shogun (May 6, 2005)

> Yes, I absolutely agree. That's just looking for it to be taken from you and used against you.


maybe. however, this is the reaon prison guards dont carry weapons inside the prison.


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## MrFunnieman (May 8, 2005)

Just finished reading the thread...whoah!

 Having trained more recently with Mr. Hayes than Deaf, but not having been there for about two years, I would like to comment about the use of the Redman suit at the Dayton Quest Center.

 It is used at nearly every belt graduation and we began incorperate the suit in regular classes.  I have read Peyton Quinn's books, but have not trained with him personally.  Mr. Hayes has trained with Mr. Quinn and they have met on several occasions (not having been a fly on the wall, I feel safe in saying martial arts/ self-defense was discussed).  I  think that Mr. Hayes was definitely influenced by this kind of training and through his experience and research he has decided it is an important element in the training of the students at the Quest Center.  

 We would also take advantage of the open mat periods on Saturdays and do more freestyle defenses using the redman suit.  The student suits consisted of head gear, gloves, knee pads, and elbow pads.  We also had a variation of the redman suit it was  a R.A.D. suit (Rape Aggression Defense), which had padding emphasized in other areas.  

 Please keep in mind that both suits were developed for law enforcement training and are not as specialized as the bulletman suits that Mr. Quinn uses.  

 I thought the suits had value in my learning process, but as has been discussed there are some shortcomings.  

 In general I have been agreement with most of what Connovar has had to say and I think that Tulisan has made some great points.  I strongly feel that frequently people with unpopular ideas are scrutinized and hen pecked with ferocity on this site.  I attribute that to some psychological defense mechanism that helps people to preserve their ego and the sancity of the way they train.  It is unfortunate that new insights are quickly shot down. I frequently do not comment on this site because of criticism newcomers receive.


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## Shogun (May 8, 2005)

> I frequently do not comment on this site because of criticism newcomers receive.


Thats true. noobs take the heat. but if you compare a monitored site like MT to sherdog or something, we are gentle fluffy creatures, here.



> I thought the suits had value in my learning process, but as has been discussed there are some shortcomings.


I agree. I think the suit can be beneficial, but only if the user is aware of its shortcomings.


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## Cruentus (May 10, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> True...I have the luxury of a batman utility belt with an OC holster. I keep the can stored in a specific manner so I can draw it ready to go.



Do you practice rapidly drawing and reholstering your OC while saying things like, "Make my day, Punk!" like Dog's cousin in that one episode of Dog the Bounty Hunter? :rofl:

Um....I'm just asking because that's what I do...


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