# United Studios of Self Defense (USSD)



## albertsmith

Anyone Here ever heard of United Studios before? If so please Relate your good or bad experiences with this organization. I have both which I will relate in later post. I just want to hear if others have had similar issues with this Villari's spin off. Please reply soon! 

 signed,

 Al


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## DavidCC

I was sent to a town in Colorado for a week last year, and wanted to do some training.  I went to USSD's web site and downloaded a "free week of class" coupon.  I study Shaolin Kempo but different from USSD.

I went to the school and the instructor (an attractive woman BTW) was very polite, letting me watch a kids class (as that was the activity at the moment I was there) but once she realized I was never going to be a revenue stream, she had no more time for me.  If she had asked me I woud have paid per class that week, but her attention to me ended with "I live in Nebraska and am just here for the week".

It all worked out for the best I just drank with an old friend all week instead.  No harm no foul


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## psi_radar

I'm curious, what town were you visiting?


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## Rick Wade

DavidCC said:
			
		

> I was sent to a town in Colorado for a week last year, and wanted to do some training.  I went to USSD's web site and downloaded a "free week of class" coupon.  I study Shaolin Kempo but different from USSD.
> 
> I went to the school and the instructor (an attractive woman BTW) was very polite, letting me watch a kids class (as that was the activity at the moment I was there) but once she realized I was never going to be a revenue stream, she had no more time for me.  If she had asked me I woud have paid per class that week, but her attention to me ended with "I live in Nebraska and am just here for the week".
> 
> It all worked out for the best I just drank with an old friend all week instead.  No harm no foul




I will second that I went in there.  I was going to be in town for three weeks I was visiting a city north of San Diego and I told them I would pay except they wanted some outrageous price so I politely declined.  I found an EPAK school and worked out there for free I taught a couple of the classes but it was an hour drive but it was worth it.

V/R

Rick


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

albertsmith said:
			
		

> Anyone Here ever heard of United Studios before? If so please Relate your good or bad experiences with this organization. I have both which I will relate in later post. I just want to hear if others have had similar issues with this Villari's spin off. Please reply soon!
> 
> signed,
> 
> Al


This is the same advice I've told everyone that inquires about USSD



RUN AWAY.

Dark LorD


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## John Bishop

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> This is the same advice I've told everyone that inquires about USSD
> 
> 
> 
> RUN AWAY.
> 
> Dark LorD


All I can add is RUN FAST


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## Lotus Flower

Come on guys, give'em a chance.  They can't all suck.  I mean there's got to be one or two good ones out there.  In that I mean good teachers with that system.  I can't say alot for their business practices however.


M


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## Rick Wade

Lotus Flower said:
			
		

> Come on guys, give'em a chance.  They can't all suck.  I mean there's got to be one or two good ones out there.  In that I mean good teachers with that system.  I can't say alot for their business practices however.
> 
> 
> M




I wouled have to disagree with you for a couple of reasons that fact that they are a chain with the same mission statement.  Since they all have the same mission statement they all want to make money.  It is all about the bottom line and they have lost focus on what a studio is there for.

V/R

Rick


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## The Kai

The USSD is primarily a money maker.  From what I've seen of Charles Mattera and Steve Damascas decidely less then impressed.  But wait, they bought themselves a monumnet outside the shoalin temple did'nt they??


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## Thunderbolt

I have watched their classes and spoke to their instructors. My family member studied with them BEFORE.

besides run fast and run away, i have a few words for you. DON'T BOTHER TO GO THERE.


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## Bode

> fact that they are a chain with the same mission statement. Since they all have the same mission statement they all want to make money.


 Not trying to start a fight, but aren't there Kenpo schools and organizations with the same mission statement (And association fees)? By that logic, there must be a lot Kenpo schools which are all about money. 

 To me, fee's and mission statements help set the standards for a school and aren't necessarily a bad thing. At least you know what to expect. 

 I haven't personally had experience with USSD except some exposure through a friend. Running fast is fine, but why? Can someone give some reasons? I would really like to know as well. (I want to stop into one sometime and watch)


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Much of the inept skills associated with this group were discussed in the first couple page of the "Who is Fred Villari?" thread in the kempo/kenpo general forum.

Simply put: Kenpo/Kempo at its worst. Or pretty darned close. Technically, ethically, financially, etc.

Regards,

Dave


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## octopic

I have had a total of three different interactions with schools in the USSD organization. I will try and give a fair review of each of those interactions here.


1) In fall of 2001, I spent a week in Provo, Utah. The USSD school was a block away from the hotel I was staying at. I was a 1st degree brown at the time, prepping for my black belt test. I walked into the school, and talked with the instructor there (who was a 1st Dan). He let me work out with them for the whole week I was there without charging me. He could not have been more polite or inviting.

2) In the spring of 2004 I was in Palo Alto, CA for a job interview. I stopped by the USSD school there to see what there program was like. The instructor there was a 3rd Dan. He didn't seem to care very much about my previous training, and seemed to have a negative attitude towards anyone who wasn't from his direct lineage. He spent most of them time I was talking with him trying to push me to take the USSD China trip.

3) In the fall of 2004 I moved to the Northern Virginia area. The only Shaolin Kempo school within a 3-hour drive was a USSD school. I stopped by to talk with the instructor there. The instructor was a 2nd Dan (same as me), and had been in the system for less total time. He wanted me to sign a 1 year contract and pay him $250/month for lessons. This was basically twice what I had been charged at my last school where my instructor had considerably more experience in the system than I had. The school appeared to be well run, and despite their very high prices, had a ton of students. In the end I decided to teach some on my own and get together with Villari masters when I could go down to Florida or up to Connecticut.

In summary... Like any other chain of schools out there, USSD has both good and bad schools, both good and bad instructors. If you're curious about the USSD school in your area, go check it out for yourself.


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## jfarnsworth

octopic said:
			
		

> In summary... Like any other chain of schools out there, USSD has both good and bad schools, both good and bad instructors. If you're curious about the USSD school in your area, go check it out for yourself.



That's about the best advice you can give on the subject. Get on the mat and find out first hand. 
 :asian:


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## Danjo

Do not go there if you are serious about training because they are not. The forms are the same as more quality stuff, but the training is not. They promote for money and the instructors are usually less than quality. The odd instructor that DOES care, is usually not there for long before either quitting in disgust, or being asked to leave. There are FAR better places to train  for FAR less money. To what has been said earlier I would say, Run like your a** is on fire!!!


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## Seabrook

Danjo said:
			
		

> Do not go there if you are serious about training because they are not. The forms are the same as more quality stuff, but the training is not. They promote for money and the instructors are usually less than quality. The odd instructor that DOES care, is usually not there for long before either quitting in disgust, or being asked to leave. There are FAR better places to train for FAR less money. To what has been said earlier I would say, Run like your a** is on fire!!!


Danjo,

You are flippin hilarious! But from everything I have heard, you are absolutely right in your assessment.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Pacificshore

Just sayin', as much as USSD isn't for most, it is for some and so long as they enjoy their "training" more power to them :asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

This discussion came up on the Can Am forum a year ago.  Here is what I said then.  I'll say it again now.

From my first post there on this subject:  



> I have to agree with Clyde on this one. USSD = McDojo. A couple years ago, I decided to find a new school. I researched about 75 schools in my area (San Jose/SF Peninsula). I visited over a dozen schools. The most expensive: USSD. The lowest proficiency: USSD. I have some friends who have studied at USSD schools. I worked out at one for a while--because I just needed a place to work out that was really close to my home. You know you don't even have to study there to become an instructor? Just go to their instructor training camp for a few lessons and <poof> you are an instructor. Can't begin to tell you just how bad the schools I visited were...
> 
> But I will say this, just because I can't touch the keyboard without taking an opportunity to disagree with Clyde: I have visited/trained at some decent--even a couple great--TKD schools. The four USSD schools I've visited/trained at were as bad as the worst TKD schools--and a lot more expensive.
> 
> One more thing...WTF is up with the "Shaolin" lineage nonsense in USSD? The lineage is clearly: Chow, Emperado, Gascon, Pesare, Cerio, Villari, DeMasco, Mattera. None of them ever studied "Shaolin".



And here is my second post:  



> As far as "everybody goes through training and we don't let outsiders become instructors". Well, then things have changed in the last 7 years.
> 
> In 1994, the unaffiliated Kenpo school I trained at in Mt. View closed. Later that year, one of our newest Brown Belts joined a USSD school, attended the instructor's training camp, and a few weeks later was running the Mt. View USSD school as a Black Belt. He quit that school after a couple of years because he disagreed with the USSD's business ethics. He took several years off and started up at a local EPAK school where he now wears either an Orange or Purple belt (I think).
> 
> In 1996, I had a job where I traveled about 50% of the time, often overseas and often for 2 or 3 weeks straight. I was looking for a place to workout near my house in Sunnyvale. There was a USSD school. I made a deal with the instructor so I could workout. Went to a couple of group classes. Went on the road for a month. Came back. The instructor was gone and a new guy was running the school. He was a pretty nice guy, knew what he was doing--but had no Kempo training other than the USSD instructor camp. He didn't even bother to teach Kempo (since he didn't really know any). He taught Tae Kwon Do basics and some Hosinsul. I was traveling a lot and only working out a few times a month. I went on another long trip, came back, and another guy was running the school. I went to a couple of classes. He clearly didn't know what he was doing and the school closed a short time later.
> 
> Over the years, and as recently as 2002 and 2003, I visited a few more USSD schools in my area in Palo Alto, Mt. View, Los Gatos/San Jose, and Menlo Park on behalf of friends and relatives looking for a school and for myself. I have also visted several other schools, Kenpo, Kajukenbo, TKD, Ju Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, Karate, Muay Thai, San Shou, etc. I know what I've seen and I know how the USSD schools compare locally. And, the USSD schools up here do NOT compare favorably.
> 
> As for the accreditation from the "Head Abbot" of the Shaolin monastery...just what exactly did he give your leaders accreditation for?
> 
> Look, you may be at a very fine USSD school. You may be very skilled. You probably worked very hard for your rank. All of my comments are based on real experiences at local USSD schools.


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## The Kai

The shoalin money mill?  It's quite obvious that the chinese have finally figured out the ameriacans go ga-ga over the chance to take a picture standing next to Chinese person in orange robes.  And what they will pay sweeet money


The shoalin temple was bisbanded and unused for the last 20 some years.  There was a thing Called communist government in effect


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## clfsean

Actually it was put back together during the last 20 something years & stood empty from 1928-ish during the Civil War preceeding WWII until after Jet Li's "Shaolin Temple" movie came out on the mainland. Shortly after that there was a massive re-emergence of the temple. But most everyday people still didn't know where it was.


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## Kmac

My experiance with USSD wasn't the best. I started taking lessons there when i was around 13. After about 6 or 7 months....i was STILL a white belt! I had all the katas till blue belt down, but did the instructor notice? Not at all! He wasnt even there! He would bow in the class, then have one of his student leaders take over the rest of class while he sat in his office the whole time! :angry: 

Anyways, Like all the other guys said.........RUN!!!!!
IMO, Its a waste of time and money!


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## dianhsuhe

OK- I was NOT going to chime in here but feel compelled to share my experience at USSD.

I left a TKD school where my teacher moved in with my girlfriend and found the local USSD school... The instructor was VERY good, and it opened my eyes compared to the TKD training I had received (your mileage may vary) nothing against TKD, maybe the YMCA TKD I was taking was not high quality-

Anyhow, after about 3 years (for me) my instructor felt USSD was too commercialized and he started to try to find his Kempo roots, I followed... Thank goodness for him!  The rest is history!

Couple things:
1.  I know and have trained with TKD folks who are awesome, so I understand the practitioner makes the difference...So I do not pass judgement on entire styles based on my limited training in that art (1 year)

2.  There are a few good USSD instructors but in my opinion it is a watered down version of Kempo with a shakey lineage-

3. I just cannot recommend USSD to anyone who wants to find a serious Kempo/Kenpo school.  Find a Kosho, Kara-Ho, Kajukenbo, Shaolin Kenpo, EPAK, Goshin-jitsu, Tracy etc...

Thanks everyone!
Jamey
P.S> Again this is my opinion having trained up to brown-belt level with USSD then switching to a style where I  was the equivalent of an average yellow/purple belt.


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## jinco

As a USSD student, let me take up the cause on behalf of my dojo.

Now obviously, my experience at a single USSD dojo isn't neccessarily representative of the organization as a whole. I can only speak for my location. Also, what I'm looking to get out of MA may well be different than most of the folks in this forum. I'm 43, I never had any MA experience and I was looking for an opportunity to get in shape, have some fun and share something with my 9 year son, who was interested in learning the martial arts. I'm not especially concerned with streetfighting or competition, nor do the differences between various kempo styles particularly interest me, so take that into consideration when weighing my thoughts.

So here goes:

I've been with USSD for 9 months, during which time I've learned a tremendous amount, gotten into the best shape of my life and been surrounded by a remarkably knowledgeable, respectful and caring team of instructors. The classes -- both group and private -- are rigorous and well-organized, the material is presented in a clear and sensible fashion, and there is a constant stressing of the basics -- our chief instructor is a perfectionist when it comes to stances, footwork and targeting. 

Morale and camraderie among students is outstanding, especially considering the wide range of age and experience. Our chief instructor personally conducts almost every group class and the majority of my private lessons. He's an excellent teacher and communicator, who's shown great patience with a 43 year old guy who was, to say the least, a tad inflexible and slow at the start. He's also known when to push me to my limits. In short, he's sent me on my way to becoming a lifetime martial artist, when all I thought I was going to get out of it was a few months of decent workouts.

As for my son, he's hooked. He loves his classes, he's gobbling up material and he's gaining power and balance each day.

So there you go -- one man's experience with one USSD dojo. Take it for what it's worth, but if the other locations are anything like mine, I'm a fan.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

jinco said:
			
		

> As a USSD student, let me take up the cause on behalf of my dojo.
> 
> Now obviously, my experience at a single USSD dojo isn't neccessarily representative of the organization as a whole. I can only speak for my location. Also, what I'm looking to get out of MA may well be different than most of the folks in this forum. I'm 43, I never had any MA experience and I was looking for an opportunity to get in shape, have some fun and share something with my 9 year son, who was interested in learning the martial arts. I'm not especially concerned with streetfighting or competition, nor do the differences between various kempo styles particularly interest me, so take that into consideration when weighing my thoughts.
> 
> So here goes:
> 
> I've been with USSD for 9 months, during which time I've learned a tremendous amount, gotten into the best shape of my life and been surrounded by a remarkably knowledgeable, respectful and caring team of instructors. The classes -- both group and private -- are rigorous and well-organized, the material is presented in a clear and sensible fashion, and there is a constant stressing of the basics -- our chief instructor is a perfectionist when it comes to stances, footwork and targeting.
> 
> Morale and camraderie among students is outstanding, especially considering the wide range of age and experience. Our chief instructor personally conducts almost every group class and the majority of my private lessons. He's an excellent teacher and communicator, who's shown great patience with a 43 year old guy who was, to say the least, a tad inflexible and slow at the start. He's also known when to push me to my limits. In short, he's sent me on my way to becoming a lifetime martial artist, when all I thought I was going to get out of it was a few months of decent workouts.
> 
> As for my son, he's hooked. He loves his classes, he's gobbling up material and he's gaining power and balance each day.
> 
> So there you go -- one man's experience with one USSD dojo. Take it for what it's worth, but if the other locations are anything like mine, I'm a fan.



Ignorance is bliss.  Congratulations on finding bliss.


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## jinco

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Ignorance is bliss. Congratulations on finding bliss.


Thanks for the warm and respectful welcome. Speaks volumes for the obvious superiority of _your_ training.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

jinco said:
			
		

> Thanks for the warm and respectful welcome. Speaks volumes for the obvious superiority of _your_ training.



You know, the Ford Pinto was one of the best selling cars ever!


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## jinco

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> You know, the Ford Pinto was one of the best selling cars ever!


Yeah, my sister had one. Little red thing. She had a great time with it, and spent lots of time enjoying driving it around. Of course, had there been an internet back then she could have heard from self-described experts -- who never actually drove a Pinto -- how much better the AMC Pacer was. But alas, she was left to her own ignorance. And her own bliss.

Me too.

Peace.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

jinco said:
			
		

> Yeah, my sister had one. Little red thing. She had a great time with it, and spent lots of time enjoying driving it around. Of course, had there been an internet back then she could have heard from self-described experts -- who never actually drove a Pinto -- how much better the AMC Pacer was. But alas, she was left to her own ignorance. And her own bliss.
> 
> Me too.
> 
> Peace.



Peace as well.  You know, if you want a place to workout for yourself and as a cub-scouts replacement for your son, I am sure it is fine.  If you want to learn martial arts, you can probably find better and at a lower price.


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## The Kai

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Peace as well. You know, if you want a place to workout for yourself and as a cub-scouts replacement for your son, I am sure it is fine. If you want to learn martial arts, you can probably find better and at a lower price.


Amen!!:hammer:


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## Thunderbolt

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Peace as well. You know, if you want a place to workout for yourself and as a cub-scouts replacement for your son, I am sure it is fine. If you want to learn martial arts, you can probably find better and at a lower price.


May I add something

USSD = cardio-kickboxing + childcare center


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## Thunderbolt

jinco said:
			
		

> As a USSD student, let me take up the cause on behalf of my dojo.
> * USSD SUCKS BIG TIME*


* After reading your post, the last and bold sentence is the SMARTEST thing you ever said*

and I wholeheartly agree.


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## MHeeler

jinco said:
			
		

> As a USSD student, let me take up the cause on behalf of my dojo.
> 
> Now obviously, my experience at a single USSD dojo isn't neccessarily representative of the organization as a whole. I can only speak for my location. Also, what I'm looking to get out of MA may well be different than most of the folks in this forum. I'm 43, I never had any MA experience and I was looking for an opportunity to get in shape, have some fun and share something with my 9 year son, who was interested in learning the martial arts. I'm not especially concerned with streetfighting or competition, nor do the differences between various kempo styles particularly interest me, so take that into consideration when weighing my thoughts.
> 
> So here goes:
> 
> I've been with USSD for 9 months, during which time I've learned a tremendous amount, gotten into the best shape of my life and been surrounded by a remarkably knowledgeable, respectful and caring team of instructors. The classes -- both group and private -- are rigorous and well-organized, the material is presented in a clear and sensible fashion, and there is a constant stressing of the basics -- our chief instructor is a perfectionist when it comes to stances, footwork and targeting.
> 
> Morale and camraderie among students is outstanding, especially considering the wide range of age and experience. Our chief instructor personally conducts almost every group class and the majority of my private lessons. He's an excellent teacher and communicator, who's shown great patience with a 43 year old guy who was, to say the least, a tad inflexible and slow at the start. He's also known when to push me to my limits. In short, he's sent me on my way to becoming a lifetime martial artist, when all I thought I was going to get out of it was a few months of decent workouts.
> 
> As for my son, he's hooked. He loves his classes, he's gobbling up material and he's gaining power and balance each day.
> 
> So there you go -- one man's experience with one USSD dojo. Take it for what it's worth, but if the other locations are anything like mine, I'm a fan.


Congratulations on finding a school that fits YOUR needs.  For any of us, that's all we can hope for.  Apparently, your prefacing comments went unheeded. That's too bad, as it causes unwanted hostility.  See above examples.

For those of you who feel the need to jump on this guy, I have to ask why?  He's not claiming that anyone else need to attend his school.  All he did was to post his personal experience.  I see no "ignorance" on his part.  He himself stated that all he was looking for was fitness and fun.  Sounds to me like he found it.  For that, he gets a hard time?

Jinco, once again, congrats on finding a school that you enjoy.  I hope you and your son make the best of it.  Too bad that you had to get a taste of the darker side of the arts here.  Good luck. :asian: 

MH


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## Michael Billings

As a member, not a mod, what are you doing OFK?  The guy is stepping up for where he is and you say "ignorance is bliss"?  He may have a great teacher, the teacher may have other experience, regardless it is a positive environment for he and his son to train and do something together.  I say good for him, and support him in his choice.  I guess ignorance is bliss when you don't know any more than you do about the specific instructor, and you certainly don't know what this particular parent and student are learning and experiencing.

 Not a "MT Friendly Response" and I want to apologize on behalf of the Board to the new member, but then again I cannot as it may happen again.  Oh well.

 -Michael


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## hammer

While I cant relate to that particular studio being over here in Oz, it cant be as bad as this www.*kenpo**4**kids*.com

Cheers 
Hammer


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## octopic

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Ignorance is bliss. Congratulations on finding bliss.


OFK, besides being rude, that wasn't particularly constructive.  Seriously, you do not even know which school the guy is at.  As I've said before, there are some great instructors in the USSD organization, and it is certainly possible that this guy has one of them.  That said, you should also consider that his goals are very different than yours.  Even a bad McDojo instructor may have plenty to teach someone who has never taken martial arts before.  Now, it may be, that after some time at this school, that he decides he wants more.  If that is the happens, I, for one, would hope that he considers this a friendly enough environment to come for advice to.

Jinco, congratulations on finding a school that fits your needs, and that of your son's.


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## jinco

Thanks to all who responded in the spirit in which I posted....


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## Ceicei

Jinco,

 I'm glad you enjoy where you train. There is always a gold nugget to be found with good instructors even among the "commercial" model.  People forget sometimes that it is the martial artist that makes the art, not the art making the martial artist. 

 Keep us updated with your progress!! I also have two sons who are involved in American Kenpo (EPAK) with me, so I understand how the martial arts can become a family activity.

  - Ceicei


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## tshadowchaser

Jinco, 

 First  I want to welcome you to Martialtalk. I hope you enjoy your time with us. We have some very knowledgeable posters here so feel free to ask what questions you have and also feel free to answer as you already are doing. I would ask you to forgive those who sometimes make rude, crude statements when they have nothing to add to the discussion, sorry but it happens on all forums.


It's been a while since I have run into a USSD studio, in fact I wasn't even aware that they still exsisted. From what I can remember of them the instructors joined the group for reasons rangeing from financial , advertiseing, other helpful ideas. As a single identity they looked small and might not be able to make a school run, but as a group they had help with learning how to market themsleves and thus where able to run the schools they had dreamed of from the time they where white belts. As with any organisation I'm sure there are good instructors in the group and bad ones, there are most likely people who love to teach and those who love ripping off "john Doe'


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## MJS

Jinco...Welcome to the forum!  Enjoy your stay! :ultracool 

Second...Lets keep in mind that we should be discussing the topic of the thread..USSD.  While we are all going to have our thoughts about this org. lets not start to take personal shots at one another.  We need to keep in mind that there are many arts, schools, etc. out there, some good, some bad.  Ultimately, its up to the person training in X art or at X school, to determine if thats what suits them.  If we are not a part of that org. and we don't think that they are anything but a McDojo, we really don't have anything to worry about then, because we're not a part of it!

I started training at a Villari school.  While it is not the same org., it did originate from the same place.  At the time I really didn't know much about any art and that happened to be the first school I joined.  My instructor ended up breaking away from that org. and went to EPAK.  IMHO, that was a good move, especially once I saw the wider assortment of things it offered.  To this day, I look at it like this...if it wasnt for that first school, I probably would never have had the chance to get exposed to the many other arts out there.

Mike


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## Jonathan Randall

MJS said:
			
		

> Jinco...Welcome to the forum! Enjoy your stay! :ultracool
> 
> Second...Lets keep in mind that we should be discussing the topic of the thread..USSD. While we are all going to have our thoughts about this org. lets not start to take personal shots at one another. We need to keep in mind that there are many arts, schools, etc. out there, some good, some bad. Ultimately, its up to the person training in X art or at X school, to determine if thats what suits them. If we are not a part of that org. and we don't think that they are anything but a McDojo, we really don't have anything to worry about then, because we're not a part of it!
> 
> I started training at a Villari school. While it is not the same org., it did originate from the same place. At the time I really didn't know much about any art and that happened to be the first school I joined. My instructor ended up breaking away from that org. and went to EPAK. IMHO, that was a good move, especially once I saw the wider assortment of things it offered. To this day, I look at it like this...if it wasnt for that first school, I probably would never have had the chance to get exposed to the many other arts out there.
> 
> Mike


Exactly! I started at a dojang that many on this board, including myself now, would consider a McDojo. HOWEVER, like the satisfied poster from USSD, it got me in the best shape of my life up to that point. And yes, I did learn some things, including an overhead block that saved me from getting knocked out and possibly severely injured at a video arcade when I was a freshman in college.

Listen, folks. Here's a man who wants to spend some quality time with his 9 year old son in an activity that they both enjoy and is doing so. He's also increasing his level of physical fitness dramatically and is enjoying himself in the process. LAY OFF! 

Thanks to those who intervened on this man's behalf. Welcome to MartialTalk!!!


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## Satori

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I'm new and I wanted to share my USSD experience.

My struggling single mother scrounged up enough money to enroll me in USSD for my 10th birthday.  I was in heaven!  I got to wear cool outfits, and when I got good enough, I got to wear a cool black outfit!  Woo Hoo!

My instructor was very nice, and some students/assistants there were very good.  

4 years later, I was brown 1st (last colored belt).  I was all ready to test for black, and studied every day for at least an hour.  I was certain that I'd pass the test.

Well...remember the struggling single mother part?  Well, the black belt test, at the time, was around $500.  Needless to say, we couldn't afford it.

Did my instructor give me a break?  Did he try to work with me?  

No.  I wasn't allowed to test, and had to remain at that rank until I could come up with the money.  As an adult, I couldn't care less, but as a 14 year old kid who had worked is **** off...THAT HURT.

8 years later I went to a local USSD to see about taking it up again.  The "Chief Instructor" was about my age at the time, and had less experience than me.  Still...this didn't stop him from wanting to charge me $225/month and push the 2 year contract.  

Also, last year I was hired by a non-profit organization to teach martial arts to low-income children.  I wanted my students to have an MA organization to back them, so I called USSD about their "Instructor Certification Program". 

Not only did it cost way too much, but they required that I charge my students AT LEAST $100 month (this is MINIMUM, and I'd be making very little money).  

Needless to say, I found sponsorship elsewhere, and happily continued charging my students $25/month.

Just my experience with good old USSD.

May you achieve
Satori


----------



## The Kai

$225 a freakin month??


----------



## The Kai

$225 a freaking month??


----------



## Satori

I agree, it is startling enough to post twice.

May you achieve
Satori


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Yup, peple may dis me for being negative about someone who found happiness at a USSD school.  But the truth remains.  USSD is a crying shame at any price.  It is almost criminal at the prices they charge.  And anyone who is happy there...well, I won't be sending that person out to buy a used car for me.


----------



## Thunderbolt

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Yup, peple may dis me for being negative about someone who found happiness at a USSD school. But the truth remains. USSD is a crying shame at any price. It is almost criminal at the prices they charge. And anyone who is happy there...well, I won't be sending that person out to buy a used car for me.


i'm suprised to see some people here don't like the way you replied in your previous posts. The truth hurts.! Why can't we accept it like the way it is and move on. If being negative helps another person from stopping being insanity, it's definitely helpfuls.


Sure, the guy and his son are happy at USSD but at the price USSD charges him, i would like to see him and his son spend 20 dollars at fitness center and still get in shape and have fun there. Of course, he and his son will still have plenty of money for a healthy chinese buffet and 2 movies tickets + disneyland tickets for entire family in this summer afterward Talk about fun.!

if anybody claims to be happy for paying $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to get what they want when they can have another option to achieve their goals with minimum of $$$,  it's certainly stupid.


----------



## The Kai

Do we say nothing let this poor guy pay thru the nose, beleive that he is learning a martial art.  So he will wind up poorer, dissillusioned and willing to tell anyone within earshot KARATE SUCKs. 


 Much easier this way


----------



## Ray

hammer said:
			
		

> While I cant relate to that particular studio being over here in Oz, it cant be as bad as this www.*kenpo**4**kids*.com


Oh my gosh.   What is this world coming to?


----------



## octopic

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> i'm suprised to see some people here don't like the way you replied in your previous posts. The truth hurts.! Why can't we accept it like the way it is and move on. If being negative helps another person from stopping being insanity, it's definitely helpfuls.


Diplomacy -n. - The art of telling someone to go to Hell and having them feel good about it. (with apologies to Caskie Stinett)

Telling someone that they're an idiot isn't particularly helpful.  Now, if I wanted to help convince the USSD student about their organization, I might ask them where they're from, find a good instructor in the area, and strongly encourage them to go check them out.  Calling someone a moron automatically puts them on the defensive, and you're not going to get through to them.  All insulting them does is make you feel good about yourself.  Anyway, you can take this advice or leave it, after all, it is just my opinion.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

octopic said:
			
		

> Diplomacy -n. - The art of telling someone to go to Hell and having them feel good about it. (with apologies to Caskie Stinett)
> 
> Telling someone that they're an idiot isn't particularly helpful.  Now, if I wanted to help convince the USSD student about their organization, I might ask them where they're from, find a good instructor in the area, and strongly encourage them to go check them out.  Calling someone a moron automatically puts them on the defensive, and you're not going to get through to them.  All insulting them does is make you feel good about yourself.  Anyway, you can take this advice or leave it, after all, it is just my opinion.



Yup.  You are right.  Insulting someone doesn't pursuade them.  And, I wasn't trying to be diplomatic.  Clearly, the guy read all the previous posts with real life horror stories and big bold-lettered warnings.  Instead of asking why people didn't like USSD, he jumped to its' defense.  Clearly diplomacy was failing.  What do you do when diplomacy fails?  You rattle sabers!  How do you rattle sabers on the internet?  You insult someone.  

I'm not just an a-hole.  I'm an a-hole with a college degree and an agenda. :asian:


----------



## Bill Lear

hammer said:
			
		

> While I cant relate to that particular studio being over here in Oz, it cant be as bad as this www.*kenpo**4**kids*.com
> 
> Cheers
> Hammer


OH MY GAWD! They have a full sized tiger mascott named *Kenpo Kenny*!!! The web site is definately geared for kids. I don't personally know them, nor do I know how they move. The mascott thing seems a little weird to me.

Their choice to call themselves Sensei so-and-so is a little off the mark. I've always been told that the title "Sensei" was applied after your surname, not before it. At least thats what my Japanese friends tell me. Besides, (and I could be wrong here) aren't they teaching American Kenpo?


----------



## The Kai

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Yup. You are right. Insulting someone doesn't pursuade them. And, I wasn't trying to be diplomatic. Clearly, the guy read all the previous posts with real life horror stories and big bold-lettered warnings. Instead of asking why people didn't like USSD, he jumped to its' defense. Clearly diplomacy was failing. What do you do when diplomacy fails? You rattle sabers! How do you rattle sabers on the internet? You insult someone.
> 
> I'm not just an a-hole. I'm an a-hole with a college degree and an agenda. :asian:


Within the SK camp it is a case of isolation.  Conversation beween teacher and student


Teacher "We are the best kenpo, you've ever seen"
Student "May I compete with other styles?"
Teacher "No"
Student "May I attend a seminar with other Kenpo school?"
Teacher "No"
Student "My brother is in town, he too studies a different style of Kenpo.  may I work out with him this weekend?"
Teacher "No, under no circumstances"
Student "But why not?  I thought we were the best Kenpo I've ever seen?"
Teacher (with a sly grin) "_And we're gonna keep it that way_"


----------



## octopic

The Kai said:
			
		

> Within the SK camp it is a case of isolation. Conversation beween teacher and student
> 
> 
> Teacher "We are the best kenpo, you've ever seen"
> Student "May I compete with other styles?"
> Teacher "No"
> Student "May I attend a seminar with other Kenpo school?"
> Teacher "No"
> Student "My brother is in town, he too studies a different style of Kenpo. may I work out with him this weekend?"
> Teacher "No, under no circumstances"
> Student "But why not? I thought we were the best Kenpo I've ever seen?"
> Teacher (with a sly grin) "_And we're gonna keep it that way_"


That isn't an attitude that I've seen from any of the SK people that I've worked with.  For example, my first SK instructors also had black belts in American Kenpo, and would set up tournaments between our school and their old AK school.  One of the principles of SK is that we're completely shameless.  We'll steal anything that works from anywhere.  That's why you see the combination of techniques from all over the place taught in the system.  Now, I'm sure that there are people with the attitude quoted above, but in my opinion, they've lost one of the things that makes the SK style great.


----------



## hammer

> Bill Lear]OH MY GAWD! They have a full sized tiger mascott named *Kenpo Kenny*!!! The web site is definately geared for kids. I don't personally know them, nor do I know how they move. The mascott thing seems a little weird to me.


 www.*kenpo**4**kids*.com



> Ray,Oh my gosh. What is this world coming to?


Gentlemen, it is not my intendtion to high jack this thread, from its original topic,although I can shed some light on the subject,

Kenpo4 kids.com is the an *Embarrassment*
It is the junior system of Mr Speakman AKKS, assosiaction here in Australia and where ever else, Headed by *Founder Tom Cullen*,
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







> The web site is definately geared for kids


True,though it's easier to blindly lead those that would nt know any different!! And the sad thing is they also attempt to teach Adults.



> I don't personally know them


While nice enough people, they *HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE ART.WHAT SO EVER.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*



> nor do I know how they move


Mr Lear, It is fortunate that you can't see how they move,as it is *sickening *to your very core, as so many poor misslead souls are being taken for a ride and releaved of their hard earnt,*$$$$*

*"Its a joke", *

I could go on!!!!!, but in the interest of not exposing what KENPO4KIDS or the AKKS is here in AUSTRALIA I will leave it there, 

For any further disscussion relating to my post you are welcome to email me.

Cheers 
Hammer


----------



## gmkuoha

I have heard many stories before about this organization including if you do them wrong they will use strong arm tactics (car bombs, etc.) with you. I have a vague knowledge of their leaneage or background. Would someone that knows for a fact enlighten me? An organization or a system without a strong foundation or leaneage has nothing. Professor Chow used to tell me that you can build two homes along side of each other, both looking exactly the same, but on one of them you have only an inch of concrete and the other a foot. Eventually the one that was built on an inch will collapse, while the other will remain true. So it is in the martial arts...train in a system that has no or little foundation and soon it will collapse, either in business on out on the street (which is worse as it could costs you your life).
 Grandmaster Kuoha


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

gmkuoha said:
			
		

> I have heard many stories before about this organization including if you do them wrong they will use strong arm tactics (car bombs, etc.) with you. I have a vague knowledge of their leaneage or background. Would someone that knows for a fact enlighten me? An organization or a system without a strong foundation or leaneage has nothing. Professor Chow used to tell me that you can build two homes along side of each other, both looking exactly the same, but on one of them you have only an inch of concrete and the other a foot. Eventually the one that was built on an inch will collapse, while the other will remain true. So it is in the martial arts...train in a system that has no or little foundation and soon it will collapse, either in business on out on the street (which is worse as it could costs you your life).
> Grandmaster Kuoha



Mr. Kuoha:  You are correct that a building on a weak foundation will collapse.  But perhaps it won't collapse until there is a storm.  Unfortunately, large chains that refuse to interact and compete with other schools/arts never have to weather the storm and the students never get to see how inferior their system is.


----------



## Thunderbolt

gmkuoha said:
			
		

> I have a vague knowledge of their leaneage or background. Would someone that knows for a fact enlighten me?
> Grandmaster Kuoha


Here is what I know about this organization. The top guy of this organization (CEO) used to be a 7 or 8 degree blackbelt from Fred Villary ( Grandmaster of Shaolin Kempo). For some reasons, he no longer associates with Fred Villary and decided to associate with Nick Cerios.

From what I read, there was a problem between him and Nick Cerios. I guess things didn't work out as expected. Any way, Nick Cerios promoted him to 9 or 10 degree BEFORE *thing* didn't work out.

if you or anybody ever go to his HQ (headquarter), you will see a picture which has 3 persons: Chow, Nick Cerios, and him. 

That is something that he wants everybody to believe ,but If you ever go to Fred Villary black belt family tree, you will see his name there.

Btw, thank you for your reminding about their strong arm tactics. I guess they must learn it from terrorist bootcamp in Middle East


----------



## Thunderbolt

octopic said:
			
		

> Diplomacy -n. - The art of telling someone to go to Hell and having them feel good about it. (with apologies to Caskie Stinett)
> 
> Telling someone that they're an idiot isn't particularly helpful. Now, if I wanted to help convince the USSD student about their organization, I might ask them where they're from, find a good instructor in the area, and strongly encourage them to go check them out. Calling someone a moron automatically puts them on the defensive, and you're not going to get through to them. All insulting them does is make you feel good about yourself. Anyway, you can take this advice or leave it, after all, it is just my opinion.


if you read a thread which you see everybody tells you NOT to go to this school with good reasons and you still go there, there is something wrong. Of course, nobody will ever stop you from doing it if that is your decision.

my point is very simple. If you spend $$$$ at 1 karate school to learn MA, you can tell your instructor to make sure what he teaches you will save you in a conflict situation because if you receive 100000 dollar medical bill or whatever it is, your money is not well-spent. If you complain about it later on, please remember this "WE TOLD YOU SO."

In a right mind person, nobody will spend $$$$$$$$$$$$$ to learn how to get in shape. Yes, people still do it. I'm not sure if these people are aware that they are still not geting in shape even though they spend a lot of money.

Just look how many work out programs we have in this world. Everybody tells you it will get you in shape. None actually works. The only thing that works is YOU.


----------



## Ceicei

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> my point is very simple. If you spend $$$$ at 1 karate school to learn MA, you can tell your instructor to make sure what he teaches you will save you in a conflict situation because if you receive 100000 dollar medical bill or whatever it is, your money is not well-spent. If you complain about it later on, please remember this "WE TOLD YOU SO."


 Even if you learn from the very best, top-notch, highly respected, "non-mcdojo" school for $ or from a backyard dojo for free, you still *cannot guarantee* that you will be saved in a conflict situation and never get a 100,000 dollar medical bill.   

 - Ceicei


----------



## The Kai

That is true.  But you will never be gouged on prices, surprised with hidden costs, be able to work out with friends, and actually be able to spar without feeling like you are being served up a warm piece of buttered toast


----------



## Thunderbolt

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Even if you learn from the very best, top-notch, highly respected, "non-mcdojo" school for $ or from a backyard dojo for free, you still *cannot guarantee* that you will be saved in a conflict situation and never get a 100,000 dollar medical bill.
> 
> - Ceicei


what is the point of learning MA if it is the case.? Perhaps, i should establish my *emergency fund* early


----------



## MJS

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> what is the point of learning MA if it is the case.? Perhaps, i should establish my *emergency fund* early



The Martial Arts does not turn us into Supermen and ensure that we will survive every conflict that we may find ourselves in.  If there was one art out there that did do that, then there would only be 1 Martial Art school and everyone would be there.  Does it give you an advantage over someone? Yes, but again, it does not make you invincible.

Mike


----------



## jinco

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Yup. You are right. Insulting someone doesn't pursuade them. And, I wasn't trying to be diplomatic. Clearly, the guy read all the previous posts with real life horror stories and big bold-lettered warnings. Instead of asking why people didn't like USSD, he jumped to its' defense.


How dare I! LOL. 

Here's the thing -- there's a set way of thinking regarding USSD on boards like these, and anyone who dares disagree with it is a heretic. So I presented my personal experiences -- unlike the hearsay that passes for wisdom from most folks -- and I get thrown a pity party for being such a gullible sap.

OK, fine. I could care less about impressing a bunch of cyber-warriors. But really, save your concern. I'm 43, I've owned my own business for close to 20 years, I'm skeptical as hell and I know when I'm getting taken for a ride -- and when I'm getting what I pay for. And, based on the amount, the quality and depth of instuction I receive at USSD, I consider my money (a _good_ deal less than $225 a month, by the way) to be a solid value. Sorry if that doesn't fit with the world you've created, but what can I tell you.....

Feel free to have the last word you so clearly crave. I'm off to train.


----------



## Ceicei

Not all "chains" are identical in treatment and service to another (and this applies to other industries as well). I've learned this a long time ago. True, a franchise is more likely to be consistent, but even then, there are differences. I've learned that places/services do vary because of who runs the particular place and the quality of their staff.

 To say that his school sucks just because another in a different place does is using a very big brush to stereotype. It is people who makes it good or bad.

  - Ceicei


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

jinco said:
			
		

> How dare I! LOL.
> 
> Here's the thing -- there's a set way of thinking regarding USSD on boards like these, and anyone who dares disagree with it is a heretic. So I presented my personal experiences -- unlike the hearsay that passes for wisdom from most folks -- and I get thrown a pity party for being such a gullible sap.
> 
> OK, fine. I could care less about impressing a bunch of cyber-warriors. But really, save your concern. I'm 43, I've owned my own business for close to 20 years, I'm skeptical as hell and I know when I'm getting taken for a ride -- and when I'm getting what I pay for. And, based on the amount, the quality and depth of instuction I receive at USSD, I consider my money (a _good_ deal less than $225 a month, by the way) to be a solid value. Sorry if that doesn't fit with the world you've created, but what can I tell you.....
> 
> Feel free to have the last word you so clearly crave. I'm off to train.



Well, I am glad you like your hamburgers.  Go taste some steak and then come back and tell us all how satisfying your hamburgers are.


----------



## kungfulee

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Well, I am glad you like your hamburgers. Go taste some steak and then come back and tell us all how satisfying your hamburgers are.


 
To true!
I would never train their again.


----------



## PG_ShaolinKempoKarate23

hmmm,
I go to USSD and believe me it's CRAP!!!:jedi1: 

Here's a list of kenpo schools that are better:

any American Kenpo schools(other than Bobby Lawerence Karate Centers)
any Tracy Kenpo schools
any Kajukenbo schools
any other Shaolin Kempo schools
Kenpo4Kids(believe it)

Now here's a list of schools that are worse:

.......ummm

yeah, you get the idea:supcool:


----------



## Flying Crane

I once had a franchise owner in the San Francisco area try to recruit me to teach in one of his schools.  I went and met with him and some of his people for an hour or two.  What I saw was enough to make me politely decline his offer.  A year or two later, his schools started closing down.


----------



## Danjo

I like Shaolin Kempo as far as it goes. It offers more versatility than the Shotokan I took did. It seemed to be a blend of Karazenpo and Shotokan karate. I could care less about the lineage of something as long as it works. However, the USSD does not teach it the way it should be taught and from what I understand, most of the current Villari schools don't either these days. Nothing is drilled to perfection and if the training gets too hard, the instructors make people stop. If they don't, then they get reprimanded by their higher-ups. Money if far more important to them than quality. The reason that I'm not so down on Villari's schools is that the instructors that came from Villari seemed to be markedly more skilled than those who had merely trained in the USSD even though the art itself was identical. But now, Mattera and Demasco have a column in Black Belt every month, so maybe they're the real deal after all


----------



## dianhsuhe

Having trained in that style I am of the opinion that it is a watered down commercial style of Kempo designed for marketing rather than self-defense training.  I AM into the history, lineage and hard-core training though which may be different for each individual...

I admit there were some VERY skilled individuals in that system but I feel it may not have been due to the style but in SPITE of the style.

My instructor got involved in Kara-Ho Kempo and we never looked back, this was in the early 90's so I cannot comment on anything recent in the USSD org.

So the USSD opened my eyes after taking TKD for a couple years but Kara-Ho Kempo did the same thing after leaving USSD- No comparison!

This is just my .02 cents, and is based on my training and experience in that system- FYI**

James


----------



## Danjo

dianhsuhe said:
			
		

> Having trained in that style I am of the opinion that it is a watered down commercial style of Kempo designed for marketing rather than self-defense training. I AM into the history, lineage and hard-core training though which may be different for each individual...
> 
> I admit there were some VERY skilled individuals in that system but I feel it may not have been due to the style but in SPITE of the style.
> 
> My instructor got involved in Kara-Ho Kempo and we never looked back, this was in the early 90's so I cannot comment on anything recent in the USSD org.
> 
> So the USSD opened my eyes after taking TKD for a couple years but Kara-Ho Kempo did the same thing after leaving USSD- No comparison!
> 
> This is just my .02 cents, and is based on my training and experience in that system- FYI**
> 
> James


 
I'm sure that's true. I was comparing Shotokan to SKK, not Kara Ho (of which I have only a passing knowledge based on Kuoha's books). I wasn't bashing Shotokan either as there are many fine karateka from that style that I wouldn't want to mess with, just that there is more variety of technique etc. in SKK. Of course, knowing a few techniques very well beats knowing a lot of them poorly (as the saying goes).


----------



## kungfulee

PG-SK23 LOL thats so true.

Hey did you guys hear of damasco leaving USSD?I read it on another forum.


----------



## mantis

albertsmith said:
			
		

> Anyone Here ever heard of United Studios before? If so please Relate your good or bad experiences with this organization. I have both which I will relate in later post. I just want to hear if others have had similar issues with this Villari's spin off. Please reply soon!
> 
> signed,
> 
> Al


i went to like 2 studios
shouldnt be enough to judge the entire organization tho
the 2 studios i went to did not impress me at all
everybody in class was doing his own thing and the teacher was outside talking to some random people!
i think this depends on the teacher, so if you find a good one go for it


----------



## kungfulee

Danjo,
I thought charles  mattera changed the forms after he left VILLARIS?


----------



## Danjo

kungfulee said:
			
		

> Danjo,
> I thought charles mattera changed the forms after he left VILLARIS?


 
Nope. Just some slight modifications. You'd see the same level of differences between individual studios though. The system was virtually the same up to the Shodan level.


----------



## kungfulee

Anybody here know where charles mattera received his 9th degree? I can't find it on any web site even their web site www.ussd.com


----------



## kungfulee

MJS said:
			
		

> Jinco...Welcome to the forum!  Enjoy your stay! :ultracool
> 
> Second...Lets keep in mind that we should be discussing the topic of the thread..USSD.  While we are all going to have our thoughts about this org. lets not start to take personal shots at one another.  We need to keep in mind that there are many arts, schools, etc. out there, some good, some bad.  Ultimately, its up to the person training in X art or at X school, to determine if thats what suits them.  If we are not a part of that org. and we don't think that they are anything but a McDojo, we really don't have anything to worry about then, because we're not a part of it!
> 
> I started training at a Villari school.  While it is not the same org., it did originate from the same place.  At the time I really didn't know much about any art and that happened to be the first school I joined.  My instructor ended up breaking away from that org. and went to EPAK.  IMHO, that was a good move, especially once I saw the wider assortment of things it offered.  To this day, I look at it like this...if it wasnt for that first school, I probably would never have had the chance to get exposed to the many other arts out there.
> 
> Mike


Do you still train there?


----------



## kungfulee

jinco said:
			
		

> How dare I! LOL.
> 
> Here's the thing -- there's a set way of thinking regarding USSD on boards like these, and anyone who dares disagree with it is a heretic. So I presented my personal experiences -- unlike the hearsay that passes for wisdom from most folks -- and I get thrown a pity party for being such a gullible sap.
> 
> OK, fine. I could care less about impressing a bunch of cyber-warriors. But really, save your concern. I'm 43, I've owned my own business for close to 20 years, I'm skeptical as hell and I know when I'm getting taken for a ride -- and when I'm getting what I pay for. And, based on the amount, the quality and depth of instuction I receive at USSD, I consider my money (a _good_ deal less than $225 a month, by the way) to be a solid value. Sorry if that doesn't fit with the world you've created, but what can I tell you.....
> 
> Feel free to have the last word you so clearly crave. I'm off to train.



Hey jinco,
Does your instructor know why mattera wont put villari as his former instructor in the manuals?


----------



## James Kovacich

So how does Jeff Speakman fit into this? This guy in Australia joined Speakmans group? I've spoken to Jeff and he really comes off as a respectful guy.


----------



## kungfulee

Does anybody know where mattera got his 9th?


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya

I am actualy curious about Demasco.  Who is this guy and who did he get his 1st, 2nd , 3rd ...etc Dan from ???.    I understand that his current rank was given to him by the Abbot of Shaolin Temple.


----------



## kungfulee

Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> I am actualy curious about Demasco.  Who is this guy and who did he get his 1st, 2nd , 3rd ...etc Dan from ???.    I understand that his current rank was given to him by the Abbot of Shaolin Temple.


He received 1st- 7th from fred villari  www.villarisonline.com      He left villaris in 1993 and joined ussd.
He has about 8 schools on the east coast.


----------



## shodan_spike

Yeah, I used to train at United Studios in Woodbridge, CT.  Steve DeMasco was a 7th dan at the time.  He eventually received his 8th and 9th degrees over the next 4 or 5 years.  The information I have found on these promotions have mentioned him being _recognized _as a 7th, 8th, 9th and ultimately 10th degree (although the 10th degree promotion was thru the Shaolin Temple...I don't know who administered the other promotions...).  Steve Demasco received his 10th dan shortly before I stopped training in Kempo.

I have no idea where Charles Mattera received his promotions from.  He is also a 10th degree Black Belt, just like DeMasco...and I always thought there could only be one 10th degree to a system, though I know of 3 or 4 in American Kenpo...

I haven't been able to find much info at all on Charles Mattera.  I actually hadn't ever heard of him until a few years into my Kempo training...

Does anyone know anything?


----------



## Danjo

shodan_spike said:
			
		

> Yeah, I used to train at United Studios in Woodbridge, CT. Steve DeMasco was a 7th dan at the time. He eventually received his 8th and 9th degrees over the next 4 or 5 years. The information I have found on these promotions have mentioned him being _recognized _as a 7th, 8th, 9th and ultimately 10th degree (although the 10th degree promotion was thru the Shaolin Temple...I don't know who administered the other promotions...). Steve Demasco received his 10th dan shortly before I stopped training in Kempo.
> 
> I have no idea where Charles Mattera received his promotions from. He is also a 10th degree Black Belt, just like DeMasco...and I always thought there could only be one 10th degree to a system, though I know of 3 or 4 in American Kenpo...
> 
> I haven't been able to find much info at all on Charles Mattera. I actually hadn't ever heard of him until a few years into my Kempo training...
> 
> Does anyone know anything?


 
He went out and got it from people outside of his system like a lot of others do. It' s a lot of commercialized hype really.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

shodan_spike said:
			
		

> and I always thought there could only be one 10th degree to a system, though I know of 3 or 4 in American Kenpo...


 
Only 3 or 4? man I remember the days when the number of 10'ths I knew was that low. Those were the days :sits back and remembers:

I can count over 10 at this point.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Only 3 or 4? man I remember the days when the number of 10'ths I knew was that low. Those were the days :sits back and remembers:
> 
> I can count over 10 at this point.


 
Ya can't throw a stone without hitting one...


----------



## James Kovacich

Danjo said:
			
		

> He went out and got it from people outside of his system like a lot of others do. It' s a lot of commercialized hype really.


Mostly all 10th's went that route in 1 way or another. Emperado didn't receive his 10th from his instructor. It was from the Hawaii Chinese Physical Culture Association. Who promoted Gascon to 10th? Emperado promoted Parker to 8th and then if I'm not mistaking he promoted himself to 10th.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

akja said:
			
		

> Mostly all 10th's went that route in 1 way or another. Emperado didn't receive his 10th from his instructor. It was from the Hawaii Chinese Physical Culture Association. Who promoted Gascon to 10th? Emperado promoted Parker to 8th and then if I'm not mistaking *he promoted himself to 10th*.


 
He who? Emperado or Parker?


----------



## bdub2000

Well, I am new to the USSD, have been doing it for a month and my personal experience is-

Although my instructor does seem to be concerned with money, he seems to care more about his students. He trains me exhaustively and to the point of perfection. The higher ranked students know their material very well and are very disciplined. 

Although expensive, the material I have already learned is well worth it. Plus, since this organization is run like a business, treat it like one! What I mean is you should Negotiate the price, I negotiated the deal to $150 a month, no contract, just a month to month basis. 

Just my 2 cents... but the USSD has been good to me, and the only way to say THEY SUCK and RUN LIKE HELL is to visit every single studio to make sure that the USSD in whole does in fact suck, cause I know there are branches of every art that aren't up to par.


----------



## mr. leffew

_I have had a total of three different interactions with schools in the USSD organization. I will try and give a fair review of each of those interactions here.


1) In fall of 2001, I spent a week in Provo, Utah. The USSD school was a block away from the hotel I was staying at. I was a 1st degree brown at the time, prepping for my black belt test. I walked into the school, and talked with the instructor there (who was a 1st Dan). He let me work out with them for the whole week I was there without charging me. He could not have been more polite or inviting.

2) In the spring of 2004 I was in Palo Alto, CA for a job interview. I stopped by the USSD school there to see what there program was like. The instructor there was a 3rd Dan. He didn't seem to care very much about my previous training, and seemed to have a negative attitude towards anyone who wasn't from his direct lineage. He spent most of them time I was talking with him trying to push me to take the USSD China trip.

3) In the fall of 2004 I moved to the Northern Virginia area. The only Shaolin Kempo school within a 3-hour drive was a USSD school. I stopped by to talk with the instructor there. The instructor was a 2nd Dan (same as me), and had been in the system for less total time. He wanted me to sign a 1 year contract and pay him $250/month for lessons. This was basically twice what I had been charged at my last school where my instructor had considerably more experience in the system than I had. The school appeared to be well run, and despite their very high prices, had a ton of students. In the end I decided to teach some on my own and get together with Villari masters when I could go down to Florida or up to Connecticut.

In summary... Like any other chain of schools out there, USSD has both good and bad schools, both good and bad instructors. If you're curious about the USSD school in your area, go check it out for yourself_

_This is a reply to your # 2 comment on the palo alto, ca location. the head instructor there was my red belt (asst instructor) until i placed him in that school. he has never had a good attitude and lacks life skills as well as martial arts skills. iwas in the past a district manager for ussd in the mid 90's and help build the northern california chain of schools. the original emperado/cerio to villari system is good if you learn it from the few who really know it. but they are rare. once you apply the american kenpo concepts and principles to motion and anatomical theory it makes the commerical schools really stand out on their lack of knowledge, skill ,understanding, application and execution of their art. business has always been at odds with consistant quality and depth of an art.1st and 2nd generation ed parker students were/are exceptional martial artists but have never made much money in the business. on the other side the ussd's, robinson's tkd, kovars ( these are local school chains in sacramento ca) have exceled in business but lack only teach motion primary with little depth and knowledge about what they are doing and why they are doing it and it shows in the schools. _
_ it is had to find a school that has all three key elements for true success. martial arts knowledge, depth and highly skilled, successful business practices and great instruction (delivery of the product). in my opinion the art you choose also make a major difference since you can choose one of now 4 choices, sport - traditional - mixed - self defense_
_since you are going to invest time and money you might as well choose the art that is going to make the most impact in your life and that is self defense._
_just some thoughts,  thank you,  mr. leffew_


----------



## Danjo

Not everyone that falls off of a five story building dies, but I don't think that it's irresponsible of me to say that "you don't want to jump off of one because you'll die if you do." I think you play the odds. Look, if you don't mind paying $150.00 per month and are satisfied with what you're getting there, then great.


----------



## AmericanKenpoChris

bdub2000,

Hi, what have you specifically learned this past month?

I am affiliated with no one and only represent myself, but I thought I was paying too much for lessons when I was charged $70 per month.

It's great that you are having fun.  Definately check out the Kenpo techniques called Five Swords, Lone Kimono, Grip of Death, Crossing Talons, etc.  I think the Orange belt curriculum of Kenpo with an "n" will blow your mind.  For the heck of it, pick up Larry Tatum's Orange belt dvds volume one and two, and you be the judge.  Once again I am not affiliated with Tatum, but am honestly trying to be helpful.

Chris


----------



## Jonathan Randall

mr. leffew said:
			
		

> _This is a reply to your # 2 comment on the palo alto, ca location. the head instructor there was my red belt (asst instructor) until i placed him in that school. he has never had a good attitude and lacks life skills as well as martial arts skills. iwas in the past a district manager for ussd in the mid 90's and help build the northern california chain of schools. the original emperado/cerio to villari system is good if you learn it from the few who really know it. but they are rare. once you apply the american kenpo concepts and principles to motion and anatomical theory it makes the commerical schools really stand out on their lack of knowledge, skill ,understanding, application and execution of their art. business has always been at odds with consistant quality and depth of an art.1st and 2nd generation ed parker students were/are exceptional martial artists but have never made much money in the business. on the other side the ussd's, robinson's tkd, kovars ( these are local school chains in sacramento ca) have exceled in business but lack only teach motion primary with little depth and knowledge about what they are doing and why they are doing it and it shows in the schools. _
> _it is had to find a school that has all three key elements for true success. martial arts knowledge, depth and highly skilled, successful business practices and great instruction (delivery of the product). in my opinion the art you choose also make a major difference since you can choose one of now 4 choices, sport - traditional - mixed - self defense_
> _since you are going to invest time and money you might as well choose the art that is going to make the most impact in your life and that is self defense._
> _just some thoughts, thank you, mr. leffew_


 
I'm in Sacramento and am familiar with the instructors mentioned. I think of Kovar's as the extremely successful "commercial" school and Bob Lile's EPAK school the hardcore, less commercial counterpart. Robinson's TKD has its less commercial counterpart in Andy Ahpo's Tang Soo Do school. However; there's room for both. Young children, in particular, who do MA as a short term hobby would probably fit in better at either Kovar's or Robinson's than at Mr. Liles or Andy Ahpo's less commercial and stricter schools. All four are legitimate schools; each targets and is appropriate for a slightly different audience. BTW, I believe that Mr. Robinson and Mr. Ahpo are friends and Mr. Kovar and Mr. Liles are as well.

Same with the poster satisfied with USSD - perhaps this is what's best for him at this time? I know my time in the ATA helped me better appreciate the training I got during my one year (only one year due to personal matters at the time) at Mr. Ahpo's school.


----------



## John Bishop

mr. leffew said:
			
		

> _the original emperado/cerio to villari system is good if you learn it from the few who really know it. but they are rare.  _



This is a common misnomer amons't some of the Cerio Kenpo and Shaolin Kempo people.  
Truth of the matter is, that George Pesare, Nick Cerio, and Fred Villari never took a day of Kajukenbo (Emperado) instruction.   And there are no Kajukenbo techniques or katas in the Shaolin Kempo system.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

John Bishop said:
			
		

> This is a common misnomer amons't some of the Cerio Kenpo and Shaolin Kempo people.
> Truth of the matter is, that George Pesare, Nick Cerio, and Fred Villari never took a day of Kajukenbo (Emperado) instruction. And there are no Kajukenbo techniques or katas in the Shaolin Kempo system.


 
Thanks for the clarification as I, personally, was misinformed on this matter as well.


----------



## James Kovacich

mr. leffew said:
			
		

> _ the original emperado/cerio to villari system is good if you learn it from the few who really know it. but they are rare.__mr. leffew_


Is there an Emperado connection?


----------



## DavidCC

John Bishop said:
			
		

> This is a common misnomer amons't some of the Cerio Kenpo and Shaolin Kempo people.
> Truth of the matter is, that George Pesare, Nick Cerio, and Fred Villari never took a day of Kajukenbo (Emperado) instruction. And there are no Kajukenbo techniques or katas in the Shaolin Kempo system.


 
I've always heard that Karazenpo was an off-shoot of Kajukenbo.  Did Mr. Gascon and friends throw away every technique when they started Karazenpo, starting from "scratch"???


----------



## James Kovacich

If there was a Kaju connection then Sonny Gascon appears to not mention it on his site. It really looks like he didn't even have a black belt went he took his Sijo title. http://www.karazenpogoshinjutsu.com/history.html


----------



## John Bishop

DavidCC said:
			
		

> I've always heard that Karazenpo was an off-shoot of Kajukenbo.  Did Mr. Gascon and friends throw away every technique when they started Karazenpo, starting from "scratch"???



Every style comes from somewhere.  Judo comes from jujitsu, shotokan comes from shorei ryu and shorin ryu.  But shotokan practitioners don't consider themselves a shorin ryu offshoot, or subsystem.  And Judoka don't consider themselves to be jujitsu practitioners, or a offshoot/subsystem of jujitsu.
Sonny Gascon trained in Kajukenbo before going his own way and developing Karazenpo.  I've never seen the Karazenpo ciriculum, so I can't say if it has some Kajukenbo techniques left in it or not.
George Pesare trained a few months with Gascon, up to purple belt (so says Gascon).  So he obviously didn't get the whole Karazenpo system.  He did later get a black belt in tae kwon do, so I guess you could call his system "tae kwon kempo".
Pesare's student, Nick Cerio also trained with Bill Chun and William Chow and received a black belt from them.  He put more changes into "Nick Cerio's Kenpo", including Japanese katas.      
Fred Villari, also says that he made more style changes before naming his system, Shaolin Kempo.  I have seen the cirriculum for Shaolin Kempo, and can say that there are no Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, club counters, knife counters, grab arts, alphabets, multiple attacker defenses) or katas in Shaolin Kempo Karate.


----------



## James Kovacich

So does anyone know if Sonny Gascon was a black belt before he created his own system?


----------



## James Kovacich

The reason why I ask about Sonny Gascon is that there is one Shaolin Kempo Brown Belt who has and continues to call me and my instructor fakes. My instructors judgement of me is justified and he and his instructors master certifications are documented.

 Yet all of the SSK Grandmasters are self promoted. I know Sonnys skill was great but according to there own &#8220;their own&#8221; standards, that&#8217;s not enough. Now it seems he may not of even had a black belt. If that is true then considering that all the SSK Grandmasters are self promoted, then I am being harassed on a personal level.
I hate to have to post like this because Sonny is a good man. But I am the one still being harassed by his downline.


----------



## Carol

akja said:
			
		

> I hate to have to post like this because Sonny is a good man. But I am the one still being harassed by his downline


 
OK but doesn't it make more sense to call out the harrasser rather than the senior?


----------



## John Bishop

Sonny Gascon was/is a black belt under John Leoning, who was under Emperado.   This is confirmed by  Emperado himself.   Leoning was a 5th degree in Kajukenbo and a 7th degree in kung fu.


----------



## Danjo

akja said:
			
		

> The reason why I ask about Sonny Gascon is that there is one Shaolin Kempo Brown Belt who has and continues to call me and my instructor fakes. My instructors judgement of me is justified and he and his instructors master certifications are documented.
> 
> Yet all of the SSK Grandmasters are self promoted. I know Sonnys skill was great but according to there own their own standards, thats not enough. Now it seems he may not of even had a black belt. If that is true then considering that all the SSK Grandmasters are self promoted, then I am being harassed on a personal level.
> I hate to have to post like this because Sonny is a good man. But I am the one still being harassed by his downline.


 
Hmmm....I have never been anything but tongue in cheek about my brown belt rank from Villari. Video training and testing is a joke in my opinion. I actually earned a brown in Shotokan years ago and know the difference. Lou Angel has a great deal of skill. Those he has promoted to high ranks in the martial arts very often do not. My comment on another forum about me outranking one of his 7th degree black belts in SKK was meant to be ironic because at least I didn't lie to get it the way he did. If you feel self conscious about having been given rank from someone that doesn't train in the art you "created" then I'm sorry you feel that way. How talented you are compared to the other high ranking Lou Angel black belt we know about, I couldn't say since we only know what you tell us about yourself. But given that he ranked that fellow so highly tells me nothing regarding your skill any more than the Villari certificate tells you about mine.


----------



## James Kovacich

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> OK but doesn't it make more sense to call out the harrasser rather than the senior?


Because we were called fakes, I pointed his lineages "gray area."


----------



## Danjo

akja said:
			
		

> Because we were called fakes, I pointed his lineages "gray area."


 
For the record. I didn't call Lou Angel a fake _black belt_ like I did ajka. I called him a fake _master_ because he promotes untalented people via long distances in styles that he doesn't know. I don't think he's the only one mind you.

But, I'll say no more about it because it was a private message that ajka has made public and I don't want to continue to sully MT this way.


----------



## James Kovacich

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Sonny Gascon was/is a black belt under John Leoning, who was under Emperado. This is confirmed by Emperado himself. Leoning was a 5th degree in Kajukenbo and a 7th degree in kung fu.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19177&highlight=sonny+gascon
post#14
John's earliest black belts in California were not until 1962-63.
Carlos Bunda and Bill Ryusaki were the first ones

post#15
In 1958 there are only 3 karate schools in all of So. California. Tsutomu Oshima's Shotokan school (1955), Ed Parker's Kenpo school (1956), and John Leoning Kajukenbo school (1958).


----------



## James Kovacich

I was questioning whether or not Sonny had a black belt before creating his system in 1958. His downline seem to frown upon that.


----------



## James Kovacich

Danjo said:
			
		

> For the record. I didn't call Lou Angel a fake _black belt_ like I did ajka. I called him a fake _master_ because he promotes untalented people via long distances in styles that he doesn't know. I don't think he's the only one mind you.
> 
> But, I'll say no more about it because it was a private message that ajka has made public and I don't want to continue to sully MT this way.


I haven't posted it anywhere but if want it to. You did not call anyone a fake master. You called us both fakes.


----------



## Danjo

akja said:
			
		

> I haven't posted it anywhere but if want it to. You did not call anyone a fake master. You called us both fakes.


 
Sigh... Here is the quote you are refering to. (I _do_ save my out-going PMs) So you might want to re-read it.

"You and Angel are fakes. He's a fake master who hands out rank to anyone that asks for it, and you sure as hell are a fake black belt. "

Now I am done with this.

(Apologies to the Forum. Please feel free to delete any part of this that is offensive)


----------



## Ceicei

Now please shake hands and move on....


----------



## James Kovacich

I don't care about that stuff so much as as people always find fault in other organizations. I'ts messed up to be called out like that from an organization thats has it's own dirt.
 Go to Gascons website and he states he's nonpolitical. But his downline attacks other orgs. Thats politics. Our org is non political and the only politics we have to deal with comes from the outside.

My biggest point in all this is that it is 100 times better to being promoted by an established outside organization that to self promote oneself.

I've been slammed and by many people downline from that org of self promoted grandmasters but I didn't self promote myself.


----------



## James Kovacich

Danjo said:
			
		

> Sigh... Here is the quote you are refering to. (I _do_ save my out-going PMs) So you might want to re-read it.
> 
> "You and Angel are fakes. He's a fake master *who hands out rank to anyone that asks for it, *and you sure as hell are a fake black belt. "
> 
> Now I am done with this.
> 
> (Apologies to the Forum. Please feel free to delete any part of this that is offensive)


 
You have issues with me and one other person. WHO else under Hanshi do YOU feel undeserving? Do I just get you so mad that you don't know what you're typing?

You only seem to be nice on this forum.

I would like to see your list of all these undeserving overranked martial artists. If you don't have a list then it is a personal issue for you against me. You don't know me from adam. You have no video or anything to justify these assumptions that you have about me. You don't know me at all except from the forums. You asked me for video. Who are you to ask me for video to prove myself to you? You offered those youngsters on the other forum a video which you never sent them or posted for them. You asked me if I wanted to continue our discussion on Bullshido forums. Again who are you to ask me these things. You're line is the dirty one. You really should produce you're list of "our" underserving and overranked martial artists. 

And on the topic of giving out rank. You should research your WHOLE upline.


----------



## Danjo

akja said:
			
		

> You have issues with me and one other person. WHO else under Hanshi do YOU feel undeserving? Do I just get you so mad that you don't know what you're typing?
> 
> You only seem to be nice on this forum.
> 
> I would like to see your list of all these undeserving overranked martial artists. If you don't have a list then it is a personal issue for you against me. You don't know me from adam. You have no video or anything to justify these assumptions that you have about me. You don't know me at all except from the forums. You asked me for video. Who are you to ask me for video to prove myself to you? You offered those youngsters on the other forum a video which you never sent them or posted for them. You asked me if I wanted to continue our discussion on Bullshido forums. Again who are you to ask me these things. You're line is the dirty one. You really should produce you're list of "our" underserving and overranked martial artists.
> 
> And on the topic of giving out rank. You should research your WHOLE upline.


 
Look akja, you're always the one piping up when I write something about something that has nothing to do with you, not the other way around. I'll drop the whole thing and move on.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

=============
Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jonathan Randall
-MT Moderator-


----------



## Lisa

I have removed the last two posts on this thread.

The rules & policies of MartialTalk are in place to ensure we maintain a FRIENDLY discussion of the Martial Arts. The recent posts in this thread have shown a disregard, if not for just the specific rules, then to the intent of the MartialTalk community.

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile).

This is a final warning.

 Thank you.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super  Moderator


----------



## marlon

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Every style comes from somewhere. Judo comes from jujitsu, shotokan comes from shorei ryu and shorin ryu. But shotokan practitioners don't consider themselves a shorin ryu offshoot, or subsystem. And Judoka don't consider themselves to be jujitsu practitioners, or a offshoot/subsystem of jujitsu.
> Sonny Gascon trained in Kajukenbo before going his own way and developing Karazenpo. I've never seen the Karazenpo ciriculum, so I can't say if it has some Kajukenbo techniques left in it or not.
> George Pesare trained a few months with Gascon, up to purple belt (so says Gascon). So he obviously didn't get the whole Karazenpo system. He did later get a black belt in tae kwon do, so I guess you could call his system "tae kwon kempo".
> Pesare's student, Nick Cerio also trained with Bill Chun and William Chow and received a black belt from them. He put more changes into "Nick Cerio's Kenpo", including Japanese katas.
> Fred Villari, also says that he made more style changes before naming his system, Shaolin Kempo. I have seen the cirriculum for Shaolin Kempo, and can say that there are no Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, club counters, knife counters, grab arts, alphabets, multiple attacker defenses) or katas in Shaolin Kempo Karate.


 
Hello master Bishop,
When i trained briefly in Kajukenbo here in Montreal (about six months until family time constraints made it too time consuming to continue)  I really enjoyed it and although the grabs and such were technically different much of what i saw of the alphabet and the forms had siomilarities.  a friend of mine in San Diego has dropped the Okinawan forms and adopted the monkey danses into the SK he teaches and as we exchanged notes the similarities decrease significantly.  However, Prof.Kimo's forms are apparently more similar.  So, i guess it would be more proper to say that shaolin kempo has kajukenbo roots.  i like to think of them as related arts.  What do you think of that classificaction?   As soon as i can i must get back to some of Costas classes and learn some more kajukenbo

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## John Bishop

marlon said:
			
		

> Hello master Bishop,
> When i trained briefly in Kajukenbo here in Montreal (about six months until family time constraints made it too time consuming to continue)  I really enjoyed it and although the grabs and such were technically different much of what i saw of the alphabet and the forms had siomilarities.  a friend of mine in San Diego has dropped the Okinawan forms and adopted the monkey danses into the SK he teaches and as we exchanged notes the similarities decrease significantly.  However, Prof.Kimo's forms are apparently more similar.  So, i guess it would be more proper to say that shaolin kempo has kajukenbo roots.  i like to think of them as related arts.  What do you think of that classificaction?   As soon as i can i must get back to some of Costas classes and learn some more kajukenbo
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



I assume your talking about Costas Beralis, one of Philip Gelinas's students.  As far as I know much of Philip's Kajukenbo teaching is from the "Chuan Fa" branch, which came about long after Sonny Gascon left Kajukenbo.  
But I have to agree that similarities can be found in just about all martial arts.  One time I was doing a cover story on Fumio Demura.  One of the techniques he did for the article was identical to a Kajukenbo club counter, with the exception of one strike.  Now I know Kajukenbo has no connection to Shito Ryu karate.  But there are Okinawan karate techniques in the Hawaiian kenpo systems, so they will appear sometimes in kenpo, Karazenpo, and Kajukenbo.  
Now, would it be proper to say SKK has Kajukenbo roots?  Possibly, but very minimal.  But you have to ask yourself this question.  If George Pesare was a purple belt in Karazenpo (not Kajukenbo), a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and a black belt in Judo in his early days of teaching, wouldn't his root system and lineage be Tae Kwon Do or Judo?  And then the system went to Nick Cerio who also obtained kenpo rank from Professor Chow, and a couple other teachers of kung fu and jujitsu.  So again the purple belt knowledge of Karazenpo gets diluted some more in it's passage to Fred Villari.   
As to the katas Kimo teaches, I'm really not familiar with the katas that Walter Godin and Martin Buell adopted into their system.


----------



## RevIV

Hi,
Just chiming in here.  I heard a Rumor that CNG received his 10th dan grand master title just recently.. anyone else here this.?
In Peace
Jesse


----------



## John Bishop

RevIV said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Just chiming in here.  I heard a Rumor that CNG received his 10th dan grand master title just recently.. anyone else here this.?
> In Peace
> Jesse



From the horses mouth:

http://christophergeary.com/autobiography-19.php


----------



## Danjo

Rotflmfao!


----------



## Carol

John Bishop said:
			
		

> From the horses mouth:
> 
> http://christophergeary.com/autobiography-19.php


 
*wistful thoughts*  

And I remember him from when he was only a 7th.  Ahh so long ago.  Why, it was the beginning of this month...


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

speechless. I mean, what do you say to somthing like this?


----------



## Blindside

You know, I read something like this and come to the realization that I am a big loser.  I mean, I started martial arts the same time as Mr. Geary and we're about the same age, and given his spotty training early on, I probably have more time in.  Yet I look at all he has accomplished.... I mean 10th degree, thats AWESOME!  He went from 7th to 10th in less time than I would be allowed to go from 2nd to 3rd, thats freakin' amazing!  Then I look down at my belt and see the lowly double bars of a 2nd degree, and think "God, I must suck."


----------



## Hand Sword

I guess some of us are slow learners, and just not as gifted as others.


----------



## Danjo

Blindside said:
			
		

> You know, I read something like this and come to the realization that I am a big loser. I mean, I started martial arts the same time as Mr. Geary and we're about the same age, and given his spotty training early on, I probably have more time in. Yet I look at all he has accomplished.... I mean 10th degree, thats AWESOME! He went from 7th to 10th in less time than I would be allowed to go from 2nd to 3rd, thats freakin' amazing! Then I look down at my belt and see the lowly double bars of a 2nd degree, and think "God, I must suck."


 
At least you realize it about yourself. It's the first step toward getting help. I might suggest that the first thing you do is go to the art museum and have your diploma's framed in gold. BTW, have you thought of having your certificates certified by a notary public? If not, then it's no wonder why you're where you're at compared to CNG.


----------



## Danjo

Did anyone notice that his certificates are dated September 1st 2006? So he's not a 10th degree until then?


----------



## Hand Sword

Danjo said:
			
		

> At least you realize it about yourself. It's the first step toward getting help. I might suggest that the first thing you do is go to the art museum and have your diploma's framed in gold. BTW, have you thought of having your certificates certified by a notary public? If not, then it's no wonder why you're where you're at compared to CNG.


 
Those are some good ideas. Maybe we can add a photo, digitally altered, putting you in the picture with an esteemed master, holding your "rank certificate", and shaking their hand.


----------



## Carol

Danjo said:
			
		

> Did anyone notice that his certificates are dated September 1st 2006? So he's not a 10th degree until then?


 
He probably post-dated his checks


----------



## Carol

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Those are some good ideas. Maybe we can add a photo, digitally altered, putting you in the picture with an esteemed master, holding your "rank certificate", and shaking their hand.


 
To hell with digitially altered photos.  We've got an unaltered photo of Blindside and an esteemed master.  He's got his rank certificate...right here.


----------



## Danjo

Geary: "On July 10, and July 12, 2006, I received a letter and two certificates in the mail from Dr. Nesbitt (click here to view)."

*Hmmmm...recieved them in the mail eh? That just reeks of legitimacy!*

Geary:The Black Belt Certification says that I have been promoted to &#8220;Judan 10th Dan&#8221; rank and &#8220;found to be of good character, sound morals, and a leader among martial artists everywhere.&#8221; The other certificate says that I am the Founder of my system, Christopher N. Geary&#8217;s Shaolin Ch&#8217;uan Fa, and that I am &#8220;hereby registered with The International Martial Arts Masters Federation as Soke/Head of Family with all rights and privileges hereto appertaining.&#8221; 

*Do these rights and priveleges include vandalizing student's cars etc.? Any Soke's out there to confirm this one?*

Geary: Being promoted to Tenth Dan by Dr. Nesbitt made me the second youngest Judan (tenth-degree black belt) Grandmaster in the world at age 35, and the youngest person in the United States ever to have achieved this rank through legitimate means. 

*Geary's International Dictionary of Omaha: legitimate, adj., 1. To aquire through the mail 2. something obtained by purchasing it or begging for it. ex.: "I just bought a legitimate Judan today."*

You might wonder why I used the word &#8220;legitimate&#8221; above. Many people are unaware that some martial artists try to trick the public by promoting themselves to the rank of tenth-degree black belt or by having their students promote them.

*No! Say it ain't so!*

 Needless to say, this type of promotion is meaningless. Legitimate black belt promotions are made only by someone of higher rank, not self-proclaimed or awarded by someone of lower rank (such as a student). 

*Now Honestly, would any of us have known that you don't get rank from juniors if he hadn't told us this? Thank you CNG!*

During my career in the martial arts, in my black belt rankings, I have _received_ ranks, titles, and recognition from seven different martial artists/organizations of higher rank than myself. 

*Notice he didn't say he EARNED rank from anyone.*

I was honored to be promoted by Dr. Nesbitt, who began training in the martial arts in 1974 and holds the rank of Tenth Dan in two systems. 

*I expect that Geary will beat THAT measly record!*

Dr. Nesbitt is President of the International Martial Arts Masters Federation, Vice-President of the Sayokan World Federation, and President of the United States Sayokan Federation. He is a tenth-degree black belt, Founder, and Grandmaster of the Pylsungdo martial art system, and he is also a tenth-degree black belt in Sayokan Goshinkaikan, a Turkish martial arts system. Dr. Nesbitt has 47 schools in Turkey, as well as schools in Iran, Pennsylvania, and New York.

*Well, if he's a master of Sayokan Goshinkaikan, then he must be for real!*

Dr. Nesbitt compared Pylsungdo and Sayokan as follows: &#8220;Pylsungdo is real-life self-defense, with no equipment&#8212;no gloves, no headgear, no footgear. The only equipment we use is a mouthpiece and a groin cup. 

*This visual is not a pleasant one. Some uniform eh? I'd haul *** away from some dude dressed like that so fast, I'd set my own record!*

&#8220;My other tenth-degree black belt is in Sayokan Goshinkaikan, the Turkish martial art system founded and led by Yabgu Nihat Yigit of Ankara, Turkey,&#8221; Dr. Nesbitt continued. &#8220;Nihat is like a brother to me, and as a matter of fact we call each other brother. He is one of the finest martial artists and individuals I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and training with. In 2002 the Turkish government asked me to come over and review the Sayokan system so they could decide whether to approve it. In Turkey you can&#8217;t even teach a karate system unless it&#8217;s approved by the government. I reviewed the system and told them it was one of the best I&#8217;d ever seen. I had such an interest in it that the government promoted me to tenth-degree black belt in the system and asked me to take it under my direction. Yabgu Nihat Yigit had created this system, but he didn&#8217;t have anyone over him. He asked me if I would be his overseer, and I told him he didn&#8217;t need me to oversee him, but I would be glad to help him in any way I could. I promoted him to Tenth Dan so that his system could be legitimate as far as politics. He asked me to be a vice-president of the federation in Turkey. I started a Sayokan federation in the United States and then transferred it back to Ankara, Turkey. I&#8217;m the president of the federation in this country.&#8221;

*I love it when the government promotes people to tenth degree due to interest. Man, that makes it legit!*

They hear about my name and my organization, and they read about me. I don&#8217;t try to sound boastful; I don&#8217;t have to impress anybody. I&#8217;m a Christian, and I try to be a humble man; I try to be like Jesus.

*Who would Jesus promote to tenth degree?*

That&#8217;s why hearing from somebody like Christopher N. Geary is refreshing. I checked out his credentials to make sure he was legitimate before I decided to go ahead. I&#8217;ve done that, and he&#8217;s very legitimate. I believe in him, and I&#8217;m going to help him in every way I can.&#8221;


*Ooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaay*

Dr. Nesbitt believes that too often, decisions about upper rank promotions are made solely on the basis of politics.

*Rather than money.*

Dr. Nesbitt explained what is involved in being a teacher of teachers: &#8220;The Grandmaster has to guide teachers. You have to be able to show a teacher what it means to look at a student when they walk in the door and know whether they&#8217;ve had a bad day and how far to push them or back away from them. Or maybe you need to just give them a smile and a hug and say &#8216;I love ya!&#8217; That&#8217;s what a Tenth Dan is. A Tenth Dan is not about how good somebody can fight or how good somebody can kick.

*Whew! Thank God it isn't about kicking or fighting ability! Man, I bet Geary was sweating that one! And, I can't remember my instructor ever telling me that he loves me. Oh well.*

For every belt rank, there has to be another level of maturity.

*Yep.35 years old is the level needed for a tenth degree.*

Some people may wonder why someone would be promoted from seventh-degree to tenth-degree rather than from seventh to eighth to ninth and finally to tenth. Dr. Nesbitt said, &#8220;I promoted Christopher from Seventh to Tenth Dan because he has done something that most men at his level haven&#8217;t done. I know that he can run his own system, because he&#8217;s been doing it for many years. It appears to me that his goals are high, and he has a great love for his students. He is a man of integrity and sound character. When you have a man like that, you want to give him the best that you can give him so that he can be the best and provide for his students the best way. If I had only given him Eighth Dan, there&#8217;s not really much difference from Seventh Dan. If you are below the rank of Tenth Dan, there&#8217;s always somebody who is looking to have authority over you&#8212;somebody *who thinks that your students should pay them money instead of you*. I didn&#8217;t want that. I wanted Christopher to have the freedom to do anything he wanted to do in his system. He has worked so hard he shouldn&#8217;t have to be *taking the money from his students* and giving it to someone else, because he&#8217;s doing all the work.&#8221;

*I think we're getting to the core truth here.*

On July 11, 2006, I took my Tenth Dan and Founder of System certificates to an art gallery to be framed. As I was leaving, my mind flashed back to a conversation that took place in the mid-1990s when I called Nick Cerio&#8217;s office to ask him a question.

*And to lie to them about how long you had been training.*

The person who picked up the phone was Kathy Costa, who happened to be one of the editors of the State of the Arts magazine published for members of Nick Cerio&#8217;s organization, the NCIMAA. Kathy and I started talking, and I mentioned that I intended to develop my own system by choosing the best elements from other systems and teaching them to my students. Kathy replied, &#8220;It would be very immature and irresponsible for you to develop your own system without getting permission first.&#8221; 

*And she was right.*

Some people might have let their plans be thrown off course by a comment like that, but I didn&#8217;t. I believe that if you want something in life, you have to be willing to go after it.

*Not earn it, but "go after it"*

If my technique was not what a person was looking for, I would fix it and come away with a certificate that very few people were humble enough to try for.

*It's because they had integrity.*

There are many martial artists who talk instead of listen. You can find them all over the Internet; in fact, some people call them the &#8220;keyboard warriors.&#8221; They try to cover up their lack of ability by hiding behind the number of years they have been in the martial arts, telling people you have to be a certain rank for a number of years before being promoted. To me, just putting in time is not important. Ability and initiative will get you where you want to go, not sitting around and waiting for things to happen.

*'nuff said.*


----------



## Hand Sword

:erg:


----------



## Blindside

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> To hell with digitially altered photos. We've got an unaltered photo of Blindside and an esteemed master. He's got his rank certificate...right here.


 
Sweet!  Could someone who is good at photoshop have Rich's right arm handing me my Judan certificate in a gold frame.

This is so cool!

Lamont

PS: I'm fairly glad that Rich lives on the other side of the US from me....


----------



## Carol

Blindside said:
			
		

> PS: I'm fairly glad that Rich lives on the other side of the US from me....


 
Oh, no doubt.  Especially since as Judan you are *delivering* the kick to Mr. Parsons for your rank instead of *receiving* it. :rofl:

Dang, it must be good to be Soke!


CNG says:  "We talked for a while and Dr. Nesbitt checked out my background, and he decided to promote me to the rank of tenth-degree black belt (also known as Tenth Dan), the highest black belt ranking in the martial arts."

All you need to do is talk for awhile and submit to a background check?  I can pass one of those.

Now that I'm thinking of changing schools, I was worried that I'd have to start all over at white belt again.  Maybe I can start all over as Soke instead!  Woot!!  artyon:


----------



## marlon

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I assume your talking about Costas Beralis, one of Philip Gelinas's students. As far as I know much of Philip's Kajukenbo teaching is from the "Chuan Fa" branch, which came about long after Sonny Gascon left Kajukenbo.
> But I have to agree that similarities can be found in just about all martial arts. One time I was doing a cover story on Fumio Demura. One of the techniques he did for the article was identical to a Kajukenbo club counter, with the exception of one strike. Now I know Kajukenbo has no connection to Shito Ryu karate. But there are Okinawan karate techniques in the Hawaiian kenpo systems, so they will appear sometimes in kenpo, Karazenpo, and Kajukenbo.
> Now, would it be proper to say SKK has Kajukenbo roots? Possibly, but very minimal. But you have to ask yourself this question. If George Pesare was a purple belt in Karazenpo (not Kajukenbo), a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and a black belt in Judo in his early days of teaching, wouldn't his root system and lineage be Tae Kwon Do or Judo? And then the system went to Nick Cerio who also obtained kenpo rank from Professor Chow, and a couple other teachers of kung fu and jujitsu. So again the purple belt knowledge of Karazenpo gets diluted some more in it's passage to Fred Villari.
> As to the katas Kimo teaches, I'm really not familiar with the katas that Walter Godin and Martin Buell adopted into their system.


 
Thanks for the info.  I will revise my understanding. I do not particularly like tdk though, and none of kempo looks like it...but in the end truth is thruth.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## bayonet

Ol'Geary is now a tenth. In a few more months he will be the first ever 11th Dan. I am amazed he hasn't claimed SL4 status after Doc's visit. He probably knew better. Let's see here:

Chuck Sullivan 10th Dan: 49 years active
Hee IL Cho 9th Dan: 55 years active

I wonder what Clyde has to say about this! :rofl:

People in Nebraska actually buy into this guy. Hey Geary..OPS! my bad...Grandmaster...baiter...go tune a meatwhistle..

PS. Your two handed grab self defense technique video was just brilliant!:rofl:


----------



## James Kovacich

I'm not making excuses for Geary because I think he likely suffers from ADD. I just want to comment on this 

"Chuck Sullivan 10th Dan: 49 years active
Hee IL Cho 9th Dan: 55 years active"

It's been said that 50 years active does not equal 10th degree. Is there any reason to claim the 10th without your instructor giving it to you?

I especially would like to hear from John Bishop. When it comes down to it, his word, more times than not is pointing in the right direction.


----------



## John Bishop

akja said:
			
		

> I'm not making excuses for Geary because I think he likely suffers from ADD. I just want to comment on this
> 
> "Chuck Sullivan 10th Dan: 49 years active
> Hee IL Cho 9th Dan: 55 years active"
> 
> It's been said that 50 years active does not equal 10th degree. Is there any reason to claim the 10th without your instructor giving it to you?
> 
> I especially would like to hear from John Bishop. When it comes down to it, his word, more times than not is pointing in the right direction.


 
Well, we have a gentleman who was a green belt in 1994. And between 1995 and today, he found one organization that video promoted him to brown belt, and 6 months later 1st degree. Then he found another organization that promoted him from there a few more times up to 7th degree. Then he found another organization that would give him another 6th degree. And yet another organization that would give him another 7th degree. And finally another organization that decided to just skip 8th and 9th degrees, and give him a 10th degree. All this without actually ever physically training under any of the 10th degrees who promoted him. 
So how does that make these organizations look? Not very good, would be an extremely polite way of describing these kinds of organizations. 
My black belts train in my classes side by side with all the other students, to earn their promotions. And when they've put in the appropriate amount of time training and teaching, their promotion is free. Now can these 5 organization heads say the same thing?


----------



## James Kovacich

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Well, we have a gentleman who was a green belt in 1994. And between 1995 and today, he found one organization that video promoted him to brown belt, and 6 months later 1st degree. Then he found another organization that promoted him from there a few more times up to 7th degree. Then he found another organization that would give him another 6th degree. And yet another organization that would give him another 7th degree. And finally another organization that decided to just skip 8th and 9th degrees, and give him a 10th degree. All this without actually ever physically training under any of the 10th degrees who promoted him.
> So how does that make these organizations look? Not very good, would be an extremely polite way of describing these kinds of organizations.
> My black belts train in my classes side by side with all the other students, to earn their promotions. And when they've put in the appropriate amount of time training and teaching, their promotion is free. Now can these 5 organization heads say the same thing?


I understand where your coming from and I'm not making excuses for any orgainization. And I also want to say that Kajukenbo today, has blossomed into maybe the cleanest schools. Kajukenbo instructors are all respected but some of their sister arts don't share that. But this is the question I wanted your opinion.

It's been said that 50 years active does not equal 10th degree. Is there any reason to claim the 10th without your instructor giving it to you?


----------



## AmericanKenpoChris

I guess that we all want to be someone special and our lives to count for something.  My interests have always been centered around music, karate, and comedy.  I am 34 and have come to the realization that I will never be a rock star.  I will never be as funny as Gilbert Godfrey.  I guess Chris Geary just wanted to be the best Fred Villari that he could be.

I personally started karate to be able to defend myself some 22 years ago.  I haven't been in any fights since grade school and don't plan to be in any in the near future, but really don't care if I am not a 5th by now.  If were a tenth at my age, what would I look forward to?  I look forward to a lifetime of attaining knowledge.  I guess I will never be as special Chris Geary, but that's okay.


----------



## John Bishop

akja said:
			
		

> But this is the question I wanted your opinion.
> 
> It's been said that 50 years active does not equal 10th degree. Is there any reason to claim the 10th without your instructor giving it to you?


 

My personal feelings on 10th degree ranks is that there should be 1 per system. And when that one passes on, there would be a successor appointed, or elected. 
That's where the problem lies. Some system leaders do not make it clear who they want to be their successors. Or even have one highest ranked student that would obviously be the highest ranked if the leader unexpectedly died. 
In all practicality, if you've been training and teaching for 50 years, your instructor has probably passed on. So you probably wouldn't be promoted to 10th degree by him. And then there's always the traditions of only being able to promote someone to ranks 1 or 2 degrees below your own. 

But I guess your main question is, whether it is better to promote yourself to 10th degree, or have a outside organization promote you. 
There's no simple cut and dried answers to that. Some of the main things that most people in the martial arts consider the measure of promotions are: 1. time in their art, 2. Contributions to their art, 3. Contribution to the proliforation of their art.
Now days many people bring up Mr. Parkers name when they point out "self promotions". And then use that as a justification for others who have self promoted to 10th degree. 
In reality Mr. Parker was one of the first pioneers of karate in America. He helped make karate what is in America today. Before he promoted himself to 10th, he was already a 8th degree and had created a system/organization that already was a large international system. He also had been in the martial arts for over 30 years. Nobody at the time questioned his qualifications to be the 10th degree of American Kenpo. And someone else with the same qualifications probably would'nt be questioned about their self promotion either. 
So it's simply rediculous to say that Mr. Parker's self promotion is not valid because it didn't come from an outside organization. 
We've all seen these "outside organizations" and silly "sokeship councils" that promote anyone who's check dosen't bounce. And I think most martial artists agree that it's illegitimate for anyone to promote someone in a system outside their own. 
This is all just my own opinion. But, I have seen a whole lot of 10th degrees, and I can say that the standard for 10th degree seems to be very wide.


----------



## kungfuninja

Dango thats hilarious!!

It's funny how you guys talk about self promoting. Charles mattera of ussd promoted himself to 9th and maybe tenth?


----------



## James Kovacich

John Bishop said:
			
		

> *1)* My personal feelings on 10th degree ranks is that there should be 1 per system. And when that one passes on, there would be a successor appointed, or elected.
> being able to promote someone to ranks 1 or 2 degrees below your own.
> 
> 
> *2)* Now days many people bring up Mr. Parkers name when they point out "self promotions". And then use that as a justification for others who have self promoted to 10th degree.
> In reality Mr. Parker was one of the first pioneers of karate in America. He helped make karate what is in America today. Before he promoted himself to 10th, he was already a 8th degree and had created a system/organization that already was a large international system. He also had been in the martial arts for over 30 years. Nobody at the time questioned his qualifications to be the 10th degree of American Kenpo.
> 
> *3) And someone else with the same qualifications probably would'nt be questioned about their self promotion either. *
> .


 
*1*) Thats what sets Kajukenbo apart. Grandmaster does not mean 10th degree.

*2)* Mr. Parker was a rare one, over time. You and I both know what Sijo felt and said in Sept. 1987 but none the less Mr. Parker has done more than most for the martial arts.

*3)* That pretty much was what I was looking for. along with part 1. Thank you.


----------



## Danjo

kungfuninja said:
			
		

> Dango thats hilarious!!
> 
> It's funny how you guys talk about self promoting. Charles mattera of ussd promoted himself to 9th and maybe tenth?


 
If I remember right, Charlie claims to have gotten them from the Shaolin Abbot from China along with Steve Demascos. Whatever.


----------



## bdub2000

I saw some photos of Matterra and Demasco's promotion ceremony in China at a shaolin temple... (promoted together)


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

bdub2000 said:
			
		

> I saw some photos of Matterra and Demasco's promotion ceremony in China at a shaolin temple... (promoted together)


 
Goes to show you what money can buy and influence can gain. Awarded mastery at Xiaolin should = been training there a spell, and know THEIR stuff backwards and forwards, in your sleep, upside down. Now, what do you suppose the chances are that either one of them has spent the last 25 to 40 years training in China?

Tourist dollars -- enough of them -- can get you anything. Including BS promotions, with pictures and pretty certificates.

These guys make me sick. And if we're lucky, the next great plague will take them first.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Gentle Fist

CNG is now a 10th?

LOL !!!

His video that was posted by Professor Shuras speaks volumes.  That guy isn't even the level of a 3rd kyu in most systems.  I can care less what rank he claims, but to think that he is teaching and corrupting kids and young adults, just sickens me.  Geary can have his paper rank, but will he be able to save his @ss when the time comes?  

I started 10 years before Geary and still consider myself young in the arts.  Some people seem to be in such a rush all the time.

I think CNG proves the example that rank in the U.S. means nothing today.


----------



## bayonet

Amen to that FistLaw. I am the same age as Ol Grandmaster baiter Geary and have bled and sweat for my Shodan ranking in ONE art. I believe the Golden Dragon says"Time will either promote you or expose you". Well Nebraska's worst is on the map and believe me, CNG is NOT well regarded here in Hawaii. Small state, word travels fast in the Kenpo/Kempo world, AKA the "coconut wireless". I would like to see how CNG would perform in a technique line with Clyde!!!!:rofl: Ever hear the Van Halen tune "Somebody get me a doctor"


----------



## BlackCatBonz

heck........he only had his 5th dan at the beginning of 2005.
the guy must be some kind of martial arts genius.


----------



## KENPOJOE

John Bishop said:
			
		

> This is a common misnomer amons't some of the Cerio Kenpo and Shaolin Kempo people.
> Truth of the matter is, that George Pesare, Nick Cerio, and Fred Villari never took a day of Kajukenbo (Emperado) instruction. And there are no Kajukenbo techniques or katas in the Shaolin Kempo system.


HI FOLKS
Dear John, [and no, it won't be one of "those"  letters,LOL]
After reading your post, I felt I had to say something regarding it. You have admitted in the past that you have never studied Shaolin Kempo and were not familiar with it. As a Black Belt in several of the various Chuan fa/Kempo/Kenpo arts, I have seen numerous similarities and many times exact duplications of various Kajukenbo material. Having studied Karazenpo Goshinjutsu,Shaolin Kempo. Kenpo Karate [New England based], Ed Parker's American Kenpo, David German's T.A.I. Kenpo, as well as  Bill Gregory's Kajukenpo-Pai Lum, I have always focused on searching out the similarities and differences between the various incarnations of the art. 
I also studied Kajukenbo for a short time with the only Rhode Island certified Kajukenbo through the I.K.A as well as attended Kallaii Griffin's past Kajukenbo event [and plan on attending this years too!] I look forward to obtaining the new Kajukenbo series of DVDs to further research the similarities.
I will write a far more detailed post on this topic in the near future, however, I can catagorically state several points:
The lineage of the new england based kenpo that is based on karazenpo goshinjutsu uses the exact same salutation ["Right foot out on elbows"] as the Kajukenbo palama sets.
2. the kajukenbo opening [A left vertical outward blaock with a simultaneous right front 2 knuckle/horizontal thrust/seiken punch <sometimes with a right front snap kick in some kajukenbo lineages] is a frequently used technique in several of the shaolin kempo forms [2 kata,hansuki,5 pinan,etc...] This motion stems from the southern chinese kung fu styles.
3. As I was viewing the Gary Forbach kajukenbo self defense tapes [#2,punch counters,#3 club counters, and #4 Knife counters] I saw many similar techniques and exact techniques taught in our kenpo curriculums, everything from the classic "return to sender" use with both the club and knife.
4. when I learned the "monkey dances"  of the Kajukenpo Goshinjutsu system as taught to me by Prof. Mike Rash and Sigung Brad Namahoe, It was obvious to me that these forms were almost EXACTLY IDENTICAL to the Kajukenbo "Palama Sets" that I had seen in my past Kajukenbo training in Rhode Island. When I trained in Kempo Jutsu under Prof. Feliciano "Kimo" Ferreira and learned his first form, Again, it was almost indential to the Kajukenbo kata [no surprise as his main instructor was Walter Godin].
I will be more than happy to write a far more detailed post regarding the similarities and identical actions,techniques,forms,etc... on another thread. But, i did feel that this particular post had to be addressed. In closing, I feel to say that the New England originated kenpo styles have no kajukenbo in them is inaccurate and although Mr. Bishop may have made that statement,He did not do so from an educated and diversified viewpoint. Therefore, he is incorrect in that statement.
Thank you for your time,
KENPOJOE


----------



## John Bishop

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> HI FOLKS
> Dear John, [and no, it won't be one of "those"  letters,LOL]
> After reading your post, I felt I had to say something regarding it. You have admitted in the past that you have never studied Shaolin Kempo and were not familiar with it. As a Black Belt in several of the various Chuan fa/Kempo/Kenpo arts, I have seen numerous similarities and many times exact duplications of various Kajukenbo material. Having studied Karazenpo Goshinjutsu,Shaolin Kempo. Kenpo Karate [New England based], Ed Parker's American Kenpo, David German's T.A.I. Kenpo, as well as  Bill Gregory's Kajukenpo-Pai Lum, I have always focused on searching out the similarities and differences between the various incarnations of the art.
> I also studied Kajukenbo for a short time with the only Rhode Island certified Kajukenbo through the I.K.A as well as attended Kallaii Griffin's past Kajukenbo event [and plan on attending this years too!] I look forward to obtaining the new Kajukenbo series of DVDs to further research the similarities.
> I will write a far more detailed post on this topic in the near future, however, I can catagorically state several points:
> The lineage of the new england based kenpo that is based on karazenpo goshinjutsu uses the exact same salutation ["Right foot out on elbows"] as the Kajukenbo palama sets.
> 2. the kajukenbo opening [A left vertical outward blaock with a simultaneous right front 2 knuckle/horizontal thrust/seiken punch <sometimes with a right front snap kick in some kajukenbo lineages] is a frequently used technique in several of the shaolin kempo forms [2 kata,hansuki,5 pinan,etc...] This motion stems from the southern chinese kung fu styles.
> 3. As I was viewing the Gary Forbach kajukenbo self defense tapes [#2,punch counters,#3 club counters, and #4 Knife counters] I saw many similar techniques and exact techniques taught in our kenpo curriculums, everything from the classic "return to sender" use with both the club and knife.
> 4. when I learned the "monkey dances"  of the Kajukenpo Goshinjutsu system as taught to me by Prof. Mike Rash and Sigung Brad Namahoe, It was obvious to me that these forms were almost EXACTLY IDENTICAL to the Kajukenbo "Palama Sets" that I had seen in my past Kajukenbo training in Rhode Island. When I trained in Kempo Jutsu under Prof. Feliciano "Kimo" Ferreira and learned his first form, Again, it was almost indential to the Kajukenbo kata [no surprise as his main instructor was Walter Godin].
> I will be more than happy to write a far more detailed post regarding the similarities and identical actions,techniques,forms,etc... on another thread. But, i did feel that this particular post had to be addressed. In closing, I feel to say that the New England originated kenpo styles have no kajukenbo in them is inaccurate and although Mr. Bishop may have made that statement,He did not do so from an educated and diversified viewpoint. Therefore, he is incorrect in that statement.
> Thank you for your time,
> KENPOJOE



Actually, the Shaolin Kempo system is recorded on DVD's by Fred Villari and several others, so the cirriculum is out there for everyone to see, including myself.  So please feel free to point out any of the SKK techniques that are identical to the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo (which was the only Kajukenbo Method during Sonny Gascon's Kajukenbo training).  
The cirriculum of the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo is also recorded for historical accuracy in "Emperado's WKO" series.  
You, being on the east coast should know that almost all the instructors of kajukenbo there have training backgrounds in kenpo systems several generations removed from Kajukenbo.  You should also know that GM Kalaii Griffin came into the Kajukenbo organization from EPAK after SGM Parker passed away.   Sijo Emperado told us at the time, that he "accepted him into the organization out of respect for Ed Parker".  But GM Griffin teaches his own method of Kajukenbo which draws from his training in jujitsu, kenpo, kung fu, and other systems he studied.  
So who taught you Kajukenbo in Rhode Island?  Does his training come directly from Kajukenbo, or did it come thru the Pesare, Cerio, Villari lineage?  
As to the salutation in the Palama Sets, there are actually 3 used by the differant Kajukenbo branches, and the X-block & horse stance used on Villari's DVD's is just half of the Kajukenbo salutations.  Since Villari  claims to be the founder of Shaolin Kempo Karate, I would assume he's the authority on the system.   
So are you trying to say that Pesare's Kenpo, or Nick Cerios Kenpo, or Shaolin Kempo, or Kajukenpo Pai Lum are all the same or similar to Kajukenbo?  That's a pretty far stretch.  Sort of like saying Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Gosoku Ryu, and Kyokushin Kai are the same as Shorin Ryu, because they're only 3-5 generations removed from Shorin Ryu.  
In Kajukenbo, we don't claim to be the same as Danzan Ryu jujitsu, even though 2 of our founders came from Danzan Ryu.  We also don't claim to be the same as Kara-ho or kenpo jujitsu, because one of our founders came from that lineage. 
The Shaolin Kempo people need to establish their own identity, instead of claiming to be from, or the same as Kajukenbo.  I see people making claims on their websites that they are offshoots, sub-systems, or branches of Kajukenbo.  There are only 3 authorized branches of the Original Kajukenbo system; Chuan fa, Tum Pai, and Wun Hop Kuen Do.  And the 3 remaining founders are the only 10th degrees in all the Kajukenbo branches.    
So again.  I've got DVD's of the Shaolin Kempo Cirriculum from it's founder Fred Villari, and DVD's of the Kajukenbo cirriculum from our founder, Adriano Emperado.  So please tell me where the identical technique combinations and katas are.
Anyway, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of the east coast kenpo variants.  Just that they are not the same or similar to Kajukenbo.


----------



## Danjo

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> HI FOLKS
> Dear John, [and no, it won't be one of "those" letters,LOL]
> After reading your post, I felt I had to say something regarding it. You have admitted in the past that you have never studied Shaolin Kempo and were not familiar with it. As a Black Belt in several of the various Chuan fa/Kempo/Kenpo arts, I have seen numerous similarities and many times exact duplications of various Kajukenbo material. Having studied Karazenpo Goshinjutsu,Shaolin Kempo. Kenpo Karate [New England based], Ed Parker's American Kenpo, David German's T.A.I. Kenpo, as well as Bill Gregory's Kajukenpo-Pai Lum, I have always focused on searching out the similarities and differences between the various incarnations of the art.
> I also studied Kajukenbo for a short time with the only Rhode Island certified Kajukenbo through the I.K.A as well as attended Kallaii Griffin's past Kajukenbo event [and plan on attending this years too!] I look forward to obtaining the new Kajukenbo series of DVDs to further research the similarities.
> I will write a far more detailed post on this topic in the near future, however, I can catagorically state several points:
> The lineage of the new england based kenpo that is based on karazenpo goshinjutsu uses the exact same salutation ["Right foot out on elbows"] as the Kajukenbo palama sets.
> 2. the kajukenbo opening [A left vertical outward blaock with a simultaneous right front 2 knuckle/horizontal thrust/seiken punch <sometimes with a right front snap kick in some kajukenbo lineages] is a frequently used technique in several of the shaolin kempo forms [2 kata,hansuki,5 pinan,etc...] This motion stems from the southern chinese kung fu styles.
> 3. As I was viewing the Gary Forbach kajukenbo self defense tapes [#2,punch counters,#3 club counters, and #4 Knife counters] I saw many similar techniques and exact techniques taught in our kenpo curriculums, everything from the classic "return to sender" use with both the club and knife.
> 4. when I learned the "monkey dances" of the Kajukenpo Goshinjutsu system as taught to me by Prof. Mike Rash and Sigung Brad Namahoe, It was obvious to me that these forms were almost EXACTLY IDENTICAL to the Kajukenbo "Palama Sets" that I had seen in my past Kajukenbo training in Rhode Island. When I trained in Kempo Jutsu under Prof. Feliciano "Kimo" Ferreira and learned his first form, Again, it was almost indential to the Kajukenbo kata [no surprise as his main instructor was Walter Godin].
> I will be more than happy to write a far more detailed post regarding the similarities and identical actions,techniques,forms,etc... on another thread. But, i did feel that this particular post had to be addressed. In closing, I feel to say that the New England originated kenpo styles have no kajukenbo in them is inaccurate and although Mr. Bishop may have made that statement,He did not do so from an educated and diversified viewpoint. Therefore, he is incorrect in that statement.
> Thank you for your time,
> KENPOJOE


 
Kenpojoe,

I thought Id chime in here since this is something that Ive given a lot of thought and study to.  When I started training with John Bishop a few months ago, I had a lot of questions about the similarities between Shaolin Kempo Karate (SKK) and Kajukenbo (KJKB). I loaned John my Villari DVDs and I already had the WKO DVDs. We (along with another SKK guy who is now a KJKB black belt) came to the conclusion that there was one part of one technique that was similar in the entire system. KJKB Punch Counter #6 and SKK Combination (or Defensive Maneuvers if youre from the USSD) #4 have similar beginning moves. They are not identical because in SKK they are performed against a Japanese Karate forward punch attack and in KJKB they are performed against a boxers reverse punch attack. Therefore, the SKK uses an upblock for its opener and KJKB uses an outside block.

But that was it. No other combinations in common in the entire white to black belt curriculum. Zip. Sure they both have similar basics such as front snap, side snap, side thrust, roundhouse and back kicks. They both have forward punches and cat stances etc. and up, down, inside and outside blocks, but so does every style of karate I have ever seen. So that gets us nowhere in terms of similarities of art.

SKK is much more Japanese in flavor than KJKB is. As mentioned above, all of the Combos/DMs are done against a standard karate forward punch in SKK, whereas in KJKB they are against boxers punches.

In SKK, the club and knife counters are not standardized like they are in KJKB. When I was in the USSD, every instructor made up his or her own or else borrowed them from some tape etc. that they had seen. (Side note: The USSD under Mattera is identical in terms of technique content to Villaris. I also got the entire white to black belt tape series from them when I was there, though they dont sell them to the public at large).

I thought SKK was a good art. I thought it was better than the Shotokan I studied due to its versatility etc. But it was taught poorly in the USSD for the most part. I also dont think that theres anything wrong with people tracing their lineage and history, i.e., who trained whom and when and where etc. but to say that SKK and KJKB are essentially the same is misleading because there are no techniques in common that I have seen. 

Everyone knows that Gascon trained in KJKB. But he apparently changed a lot when he created Karazenpo Go Shinjitsu. Then Pesare changed even more and added and deleted, then Cerio had all of his changes, then Villari did some more. So what we have now in SKK looks nothing like KJKB in my opinion. I'm not saying it's inferior as an art, but it's sure as hell different.

Respectfully,

Dan Weston


----------



## texasbmas

99% of you people have no clue about ussd,you sit here and talk so much crap but do you really dont know anything except what these washed up karate instuctors that make 35k a year or less at there studio tell you.

ussd is the most sucessfull chain of studios in the world and many instuctors in ussd make more than many doctors and other high paying jobs
do they charge alot of money? yes but when you are running a business you have too.all of there studios are at easy access locations and open 9 hours a day for the customers conveinence,not some instuctor that works as a plumber then teaches after work for three hours .and no mattera did not self promote himself he was tested at the temple and recived his 10th degree.
so all you looser instructors keep talkin crap and reading your martial arts profesional magazine and making everyone money except yourself,while mattera drives around in his aston martin vanquish.


----------



## Danjo

texasbmas said:
			
		

> 99% of you people have no clue about ussd,you sit here and talk so much crap but do you really dont know anything except what these washed up karate instuctors that make 35k a year or less at there studio tell you.
> 
> ussd is the most sucessfull chain of studios in the world and many instuctors in ussd make more than many doctors and other high paying jobs
> do they charge alot of money? yes but when you are running a business you have too.all of there studios are at easy access locations and open 9 hours a day for the customers conveinence,not some instuctor that works as a plumber then teaches after work for three hours .and no mattera did not self promote himself he was tested at the temple and recived his 10th degree.
> so all you looser instructors keep talkin crap and reading your martial arts profesional magazine and making everyone money except yourself,while mattera drives around in his aston martin vanquish.


 
Thanks man. You have just confirmed what everyone here has been saying.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

texasbmas said:
			
		

> 99% of you people have no clue about ussd,you sit here and talk so much crap but do you really dont know anything except what these washed up karate instuctors that make 35k a year or less at there studio tell you.
> 
> ussd is the most sucessfull chain of studios in the world and many instuctors in ussd make more than many doctors and other high paying jobs
> do they charge alot of money? yes but when you are running a business you have too.all of there studios are at easy access locations and open 9 hours a day for the customers conveinence,not some instuctor that works as a plumber then teaches after work for three hours .and no mattera did not self promote himself he was tested at the temple and recived his 10th degree.
> so all you looser instructors keep talkin crap and reading your martial arts profesional magazine and making everyone money except yourself,while mattera drives around in his aston martin vanquish.


 
Proof to me there is a problem. It's called "sold out".

Are they successful financially? Absolutely. So is McDonalds. And the food is crap; just like the martial content of 99% of the USSD schools. And the 1% that ain't crap? Usually an instructor drafted by the need for cash from another system.

You can't make great wine from crappy grapes.


----------



## texasbmas

lets face reality ,ussd has over 140 studios with over 50 thousand students they have helped alot of people loose weight gain self confidence etc.. i love people that use the term sell out ,ussd is using the same material that was taught to mattera by nick cerio just in a larger scale. bands sign multi million dollar deals are they selling out .no they accomplised what they set out to do and thats to let millions of people hear there music and become successfull. is that not what everyone sets out to achieve?


----------



## Danjo

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Proof to me there is a problem. It's called "sold out".


 
It's not about good instruction, it's about *MONEY*.



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Are they successful financially? Absolutely. So is McDonalds. And the food is crap; just like the martial content of 99% of the USSD schools.


 
But they're open 9 hours per day for their studen...er..._*CUSTOMERS.*_



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> And the 1% that ain't crap? Usually an instructor drafted by the need for cash from another system.


 
Plus they don't last there for long because they won't attract and retain enough *CUSTOMERS.*



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> You can't make great wine from crappy grapes.


 
Nuff said.


----------



## Danjo

texasbmas said:
			
		

> lets face reality ,ussd has over 140 studios with over 50 thousand students they have helped alot of people loose weight gain self confidence etc.. i love people that use the term sell out ,ussd is using the same material that was taught to mattera by nick cerio just in a larger scale. bands sign multi million dollar deals are they selling out .no they accomplised what they set out to do and thats to let millions of people hear there music and become successfull. is that not what everyone sets out to achieve?


 
First, he wasn't taught by Cerio despite the stories he tells on his website. He was taught everything by Fred Villari.

Secondly, When you primary goal is to retain students rather than impart good martial arts instruction, you are going to be delivering an inferior product.

Third, Mattera was not taught by Cerio, but by Fred Villari.

Fourth, Mattera was Not taught by Cerio but by Villari.

Fifth, He and Demasco bought and paid for those ranking from the Shaolin Temple. Their system is nothing like the gymnastics that the monks there do.


----------



## texasbmas

i think i might know a little more about mattera than you,and yes nick cerio did teach mattera along with villari.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

texasbmas said:
			
		

> lets face reality ,ussd has over 140 studios with over 50 thousand students they have helped alot of people loose weight gain self confidence etc.. i love people that use the term sell out ,ussd is using the same material that was taught to mattera by nick cerio just in a larger scale. bands sign multi million dollar deals are they selling out .no they accomplised what they set out to do and thats to let millions of people hear there music and become successfull. is that not what everyone sets out to achieve?


 
Let's face reality...USSD churns and burns students for their hard-earned cash, providing inferior service with no quality control, specifically so that Mattera CAN drive whatever frickin car he wants. Most of the Black Belts (minus 1-2 exceptions who were already good before they joined the idiot...I mean Dark Side) I've seen come out of that diploma mill have been laughable, and ought to be embarassed. But they don't KNOW to be embarrassed by their lack of skill, because their instructor...the guy who BS'd them out of their money so he could make a decent income for himself and his organization...told them they are doing just fine, earned their rank, and are every bit as good as any other Yack Belt.

Why does he believe this? Because he was sold the same line of crap from Mattera & company. Because there was money on the line.

You cannot buy skill. You CAN bamboozle the public out of their money, and blow smoke up their butts about how great they are doing, now that the check has cleared. And you CAN buy rank from hungry representatives of a public tourist function in a foreign country (Shaolin).

Enjoy your experience, but don't for a second be fooled that you've learned anything worth a crap.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Flying Crane

texasbmas said:
			
		

> lets face reality ,ussd has over 140 studios with over 50 thousand students they have helped alot of people loose weight gain self confidence etc.. i love people that use the term sell out ,ussd is using the same material that was taught to mattera by nick cerio just in a larger scale. bands sign multi million dollar deals are they selling out .no they accomplised what they set out to do and thats to let millions of people hear there music and become successfull. is that not what everyone sets out to achieve?


 
I think this is an apples and oranges comparison.  A music band records music and plays live concerts.  Anyone can appreciate and enjoy music on some level.  It is essentially a passive activity for most people.

Martial arts training is completely active, both mentally and physically.  Most people are not up to the task.  Serving up martial arts to the masses is likely to produce many lousy practitioners, with only a very few quality ones.  It is evey more difficult to produce the few quality ones, because the curriculum has become so lousy for the masses, that the gifted individuals are working with inferior material and teaching methods.

The idea that martial arts are for everyone is a myth.  It is a marketing gimmick designed to bring in customers, to make a business grow, to make money.  I am not against business or making money, but quality martial arts and business do not go well together.  When martial arts becomes accessable to everyone and anyone, then it is guaranteed to be low quality.  The vast majority of people are unable to practice martial arts at a high level.  They lack the ability and the commitment.  

But anyone can listen to music and enjoy it on some level, pay for concert tickets and buy a music CD.


----------



## Blindside

texasbmas said:
			
		

> lets face reality ,ussd has over 140 studios with over 50 thousand students they have helped alot of people loose weight gain self confidence etc.. i love people that use the term sell out ,ussd is using the same material that was taught to mattera by nick cerio just in a larger scale. bands sign multi million dollar deals are they selling out .no they accomplised what they set out to do and thats to let millions of people hear there music and become successfull. is that not what everyone sets out to achieve?


 
I'm glad people have lost weight and gotten some self confidence, but can they defend themselves?  Out of the 20 or so students and instructors I have met from the USSD schools, none of them equalled a decent blue belt from the kajukenbo, American Kenpo, or Tracy Kenpo schools that I have practiced at.  I'm sure they are out there, if you have 50,000 students, someone may accidentally get competant.

Lamont


----------



## John Bishop

texasbmas said:
			
		

> 99% of you people have no clue about ussd,you sit here and talk so much crap but do you really dont know anything except what these washed up karate instuctors that make 35k a year or less at there studio tell you.
> 
> ussd is the most sucessfull chain of studios in the world and many instuctors in ussd make more than many doctors and other high paying jobs
> do they charge alot of money? yes but when you are running a business you have too.all of there studios are at easy access locations and open 9 hours a day for the customers conveinence,not some instuctor that works as a plumber then teaches after work for three hours .and no mattera did not self promote himself he was tested at the temple and recived his 10th degree.
> so all you looser instructors keep talkin crap and reading your martial arts profesional magazine and making everyone money except yourself,while mattera drives around in his aston martin vanquish.


 

Moderator Note:
Since you are a new member, I'm hoping you read the user agreement before you joined today.  But this post indicates that either you are not aware of our policies, or you choose to ignore them.  
*So, I'm going to request that you follow one simple rule.  Present your argument without attacking any members here.  Feel free to attack their arguments, but calling the members "loosers" will not be tolerated here.*


----------



## texasbmas

everyone is entitled to there opinoin,ussd has closed down maybe one or two studios in there history ,where other studios come and go like crazy they must be doing something right,its to bad you people are blinded by these washed up instructors on here that are so great becouse they say they are traditional ,big deal traditional dont pay the bills and if you want your style to stick around $49 a month lessons dont cut it that is why there has been such a huge increase in dojo failure.


----------



## texasbmas

for all of you who need ahistory lesson in the martial arts type in birthplace of the martial arts on any search engine and you will see that the shoalin temple is the place.that is a fact everything is an offshoot of shoalin kenpo


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

texasbmas said:
			
		

> for all of you who need ahistory lesson in the martial arts type in birthplace of the martial arts on any search engine and you will see that the shoalin temple is the place.that is a fact everything is an offshoot of shoalin kenpo


 
Yep. Somehow you've managed to best a multitude of minds here; people who have dedicated decades to the martial arts, it's practice; it's history...including researchers and authors in the field. Thanks for the history lesson.

FYI...kenpo is not even a Chinese word, much less an art from Xaolin temples in China. Everything is an offshoot of Shaolin Gung-Fu. Kenpo, as a word (much less an art), still has an unagreed upon history. But you would already know that. Because of the erudite scholar and historian you be.

Regards,

Moi.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

texasbmas said:
			
		

> everyone is entitled to there opinoin,ussd has closed down maybe one or two studios in there history ,where other studios come and go like crazy they must be doing something right,its to bad you people are blinded by these washed up instructors on here that are so great becouse they say they are traditional ,big deal traditional dont pay the bills and if you want your style to stick around $49 a month lessons dont cut it that is why there has been such *a huge increase *in dojo failure.


 
And a huge decrease in the quality of skills. Thanks for your contribution, USSD. Now, if you would please avoid further peeing in the kenpo gene pool...

Nobody here is arguing that USSD does not have a successful business model. As a chain, seperating people from their wallets, they are hugely successful.


----------



## Blindside

texasbmas said:
			
		

> for all of you who need ahistory lesson in the martial arts type in birthplace of the martial arts on any search engine and you will see that the shoalin temple is the place.that is a fact everything is an offshoot of shoalin kenpo


 
So explain to me how the Filipino martial arts owe their history to the Shaolin Temple....
How about the martial arts of India....
How about Europe....
Africa?
Mongolia?

please, enlighten us....

Lamont


----------



## Flying Crane

texasbmas said:
			
		

> everyone is entitled to there opinoin,ussd has closed down maybe one or two studios in there history ,


 
Here in the San Francisco Bay Area there used to be at least a half dozen or so a few years back.  I think only one now exists.


----------



## Xue Sheng

texasbmas said:
			
		

> for all of you who need ahistory lesson in the martial arts type in birthplace of the martial arts on any search engine and you will see that the shoalin temple is the place.that is a fact everything is an offshoot of shoalin kenpo


 
Actually that is not correct. 

Many of these claims you see, particularly on web sites, are putting the cart before the horse. They see Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua being taught currently at Shaolin and they then assume they all came from Shaolin and they do not. They came from somewhere else and are now trained at Shaolin as an option.

Not even all of the martial arts in China come from Shaolin (Buddhist - mainly external styles). 

There is Wudang (Taoist - mainly internal styles) which has it's own brand of martial arts, mainly internal and decidedly not Shaolin. 

There are also other martial arts that come from sources outside of Wudang and Shaolin. Shuaijiao is one of those. And one could argue so are Yiquan and Sanda as well. Actually the Chen family says they developed Tai Chi independently of both too.

Shaolins contributions are great but its contributions are mainly animal forms. It was also rather influential in many Okinawan and thereby Japanese Martial Arts too. 

And speaking of Japan, Sumo is a martial art too and it is decidedly not from Shaolin.


----------



## Carol

texasbmas said:
			
		

> everyone is entitled to there opinoin,ussd has closed down maybe one or two studios in there history ,where other studios come and go like crazy they must be doing something right,*its to bad you people are blinded by these washed up instructors on here *that are so great becouse they say they are traditional ,big deal traditional dont pay the bills and if you want your style to stick around $49 a month lessons dont cut it that is why there has been such a huge increase in dojo failure.


 
Your insults are neither enlightening nor appropriate.


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Actually that is not correct.
> 
> Many of these claims you see, particularly on web sites, are putting the cart before the horse. They see Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua being taught currently at Shaolin and they then assume they all came from Shaolin and they do not. They came from somewhere else and are now trained at Shaolin as an option.
> 
> Not even all of the martial arts in China come from Shaolin (Buddhist - mainly external styles).
> 
> There is Wudang (Taoist - mainly internal styles) which has it's own brand of martial arts, mainly internal and decidedly not Shaolin.
> 
> There are also other martial arts that come from sources outside of Wudang and Shaolin. Shuaijiao is one of those. And one could argue so are Yiquan and Sanda as well. Actually the Chen family says they developed Tai Chi independently of both too.
> 
> Shaolins contributions are great but its contributions are mainly animal forms. It was also rather influential in many Okinawan and thereby Japanese Martial Arts too.
> 
> And speaking of Japan, Sumo is a martial art too and it is decidedly not from Shaolin.


 
Yeah, absolutely right on here.  Shaolin is often put up on a pedestal and revered as not just the origins of Chinese martial arts, but even of all martial arts, and neither are true.  People have been fighting each other all over the world for as long as humans have been walking the planet.  Martial arts have developed in some way virtually everywhere.  In China and other parts of Asia, sophisticated martial arts existed long long before Shaolin ever had any at all.  Shaolin has certainly had a strong influence on many martial arts since it got into the picture, but there are still plenty of arts today that have no connection to the Shaolin temple.

With regards to Kenpo, I think its history is cloudy and undetermined and undeterminable.  I think it would be very difficult to establish a direct link to Shaolin.  At best, it would be traced in a very circuitious route, and may really have no connection at all.  Shaolin may have wielded some influence over what became Kenpo, but I doubt any of the Kenpo arts today can truthfully claim a link to Shaolin.  

Mattera and Demascos' link to the current Shaolin Temple today is, at best, a goodwill gesture and an attempt at a cultural brotherhood, and at worst simply a deceptive marketing ploy on both ends.


----------



## Danjo

texasbmas said:
			
		

> i think i might know a little more about mattera than you,and yes nick cerio did teach mattera along with villari.


 
Apparently you don't. Nick Cerio was the instructor of Fred Villari up to 2nd degree Black Belt, Charlie Mattera was an Orange Belt with Cerio when Villari left the school. He left with his instructor, Villari, and was skipped from Orange to Blue Belt by him (I had this from Mattera himself at a Shaolin Monk Show in Anaheim in 2003) He talked about how he'd never had a purple belt because he was skipped past it, and what a shame it was because it was his favorite color. From then on, it was pure Fred Villari up to 7th degree black belt in 1988. Mattera left F.V. in 1988 and started his USSD. He then went back to Cerio to get rank. He got Zero training from him, however, and Cerio soon broke off all contact with Mattera due to personal reasons. After Cerio died, Mattera put Cerio back in his lineage chart to make it look as though he was trained by him rather than Villari. When I mentioned Villari's name at my blue belt test, the "Masters" looked at me like I had cut a fart in an elevator. After Steve Demascos left Villari in 1993, he joined up with Charlie and ran the east Coast branch of the USSD. He had contacts with the new tourist attraction called the Shaolin Temple in China, and they both went there with a lot of cash and got rank from them. When they brought them to the USA in 2003, the USSD donated a reported 150,000 dollars to the Temple and had a monument erected at the Shaolin temple also with USSD carved on it.

Now, tell me where I am wrong here about Charlie Mattera.


----------



## Gentle Fist

Danjo said:
			
		

> Apparently you don't. Nick Cerio was the instructor of Fred Villari up to 2nd degree Black Belt, Charlie Mattera was an Orange Belt with Cerio when Villari left the school. He left with his instructor, Villari, and was skipped from Orange to Blue Belt by him (I had this from Mattera himself at a Shaolin Monk Show in Anaheim in 2003) He talked about how he'd never had a purple belt because he was skipped past it, and what a shame it was because it was his favorite color. From then on, it was pure Fred Villari up to 7th degree black belt in 1988. Mattera left F.V. in 1988 and started his USSD. He then went back to Cerio to get rank. He got Zero training from him, however, and Cerio soon broke off all contact with Mattera due to personal reasons. After Cerio died, Mattera put Cerio back in his lineage chart to make it look as though he was trained by him rather than Villari. When I mentioned Villari's name at my blue belt test, the "Masters" looked at me like I had cut a fart in an elevator. After Steve Demascos left Villari in 1993, he joined up with Charlie and ran the east Coast branch of the USSD. He had contacts with the new tourist attraction called the Shaolin Temple in China, and they both went there with a lot of cash and got rank from them. When they brought them to the USA in 2003, the USSD donated a reported 150,000 dollars to the Temple and had a monument erected at the Shaolin temple also with USSD carved on it.
> 
> Now, tell me where I am wrong here about Charlie Mattera.


 

OWNED!!!


----------



## Gentle Fist

Question for USSDers.

Some arts in the U.S. have commercial versions as well as "family" versions.  Is USSD strictly commercial or does it have a closed curtain curriculum as well?

Those who have been around the Kenpo block should know what I am referring to.


----------



## Danjo

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> Question for USSDers.
> 
> Some arts in the U.S. have commercial versions as well as "family" versions. Is USSD strictly commercial or does it have a closed curtain curriculum as well?
> 
> Those who have been around the Kenpo block should know what I am referring to.


 
Well, having talked to a number of instructors there, it's all about the money. They tested the celebrities right next to us in Lake Forrest, (Christian Slater and I went for Green belt at the same test session, and Steven Seagal's kids also trained there) and it seems that if there were a "Special Club" that they would be the one's who would have gotten it.

When I would go to the tests in Charlie's Lake Forrest HQ, I would work my butt off before testing to learn all of my material and be able to do it well. I would be standing next to people that forgot forms and combinations and some that even had to take a break and sit out part of the test. Well, at the end of the session, everyone got their tested for rank. When one of my fellow students that was testing at the same time asked one of the "Masters" what the deal was, the "Master" shrugged his shoulders and said, "It's a business." That's a quote I heard myself right from the mouth of Dennis B.


----------



## Gentle Fist

Danjo said:
			
		

> Well, having talked to a number of instructors there, it's all about the money. They tested the celebrities right next to us in Lake Forrest, (Christian Slater and I went for Green belt at the same test session, and Steven Seagal's kids also trained there) and it seems that if there were a "Special Club" that they would be the one's who would have gotten it.
> 
> When I would go to the tests in Charlie's Lake Forrest HQ, I would work my butt off before testing to learn all of my material and be able to do it well. I would be standing next to people that forgot forms and combinations and some that even had to take a break and sit out part of the test. Well, at the end of the session, everyone got their tested for rank. When one of my fellow students that was testing at the same time asked one of the "Masters" what the deal was, the "Master" shrugged his shoulders and said, "It's a business." That's a quote I heard myself right from the mouth of Dennis B.


 
WOW!!  That sounds horrible!  I only hear of schools/systems like this.  Which is more than enough for me.


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## MJS

*Thread Locked Pending Review.

MJS

MT Supermod*


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