# Criminal background checks on FMA students?



## Carol (Jul 25, 2007)

Are formal criminal background checks on FMA students necessary?

With FMA training encompassing impact weapons (such as sticks), edged weapons (such as knives) and sometimes firearms...a FMA student is quickly taught applications of lethal force.

Some folks say that background checks should be run on the FMA students that are taught to fight with lethal force.  

Other folks think this isn't necessary, as one does not need FMA training to be lethal with a club, knife, or firearm.

What do you think?


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 25, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Are background checks on FMA students necessary?
> 
> With FMA training encompassing impact weapons (such as sticks), edged weapons (such as knives) and sometimes firearms...a FMA student quickly learns deadly applications to their art.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting question. As much as people on message boards complain about price as it is, I can't imagine they would bankroll the extra expense of running background checks on each and every student. Yes, it would have to apply to ALL students, or you would be opening that ole descrimination scenario. It will be interesting to see how people respond to this question. Maybe background checks are inexpensive, but I don't know, least-wise where I am, it is America and its capitalistic economy. I  imagine it would cost a bit.

Good question Carol, can't wait to see the responses.


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## arnisador (Jul 25, 2007)

Doing background checks is overkill, but being careful to whom you teach offensive use of the knife isn't!


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## jks9199 (Jul 25, 2007)

Who's gonna do 'em?

Instead, rely on instructors to have some sense of the students they teach.  While I don't teach a FMA - I won't teach someone that I suspect will abuse what I teach.  (And it's got it's edged weapons, stick weapons, and dangerous techniques, too!)


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 25, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Are formal criminal background checks on FMA students necessary?
> 
> With FMA training encompassing impact weapons (such as sticks), edged weapons (such as knives) and sometimes firearms...a FMA student is quickly taught applications of lethal force.
> 
> ...



Background checks are cost prohibitive based upon what most will want to pay for their training. 

Besides why would I pay for a back ground check when I can go trian in art "Y" with no background check.

Now, are the FMA likely to have some bozo's that want to learn knife fighting and other ways to hurt people? Yes.

But, I think with a decent subject progression one should be able to get to know their students to see if they are likely to be at risk of being a bad guy. 

My Balintawak instructor who took privates only did a form of back ground check though in his students. He would take a new student from someone who could be verified by an existing student or someone else he knew over someone who just wanted to learn but did not have any references. This kind of background check is possible but it also limits your students.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 25, 2007)

arnisador said:


> Doing background checks is overkill, but being careful to whom you teach offensive use of the knife isn't!


Pretty much sums it up for me, too. Gotta trust your gut, even though it's not 'scientific'.


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## Gordon Nore (Jul 28, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Are formal criminal background checks on FMA students necessary?
> 
> With FMA training encompassing impact weapons (such as sticks), edged weapons (such as knives) and sometimes firearms...a FMA student is quickly taught applications of lethal force.
> 
> ...



I doubt that an FMA (or other martial art) instructor would legally be able to conduct such a check in most jurisdictions; however, the point of your question is not lost on me. My son trains under a well-respected Kali Guro, who personally screens his students, trains them very hard, and carefully monitors their practice in class. My son is 17, thirty years my junior, with hands like a brick-layer and very good skills, with or without a stick or knife.  I'm glad he's one of the good guys.

That said I don't know that the average bully or thug would have the discipline to respond to authority or submit to the rigorous physical training that goes with a well-run FMA (or other) school. I figure they would just go pick up a Glock some place.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 29, 2007)

Gordon Nore said:


> That said I don't know that the average bully or thug would have the discipline to respond to authority or submit to the rigorous physical training that goes with a well-run FMA (or other) school. I figure they would just go pick up a Glock some place.


This has always been my position, too. The guys with no heart, the ones who may abuse the training, won't stick it out anyway. It's a self-screening process.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 29, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> This has always been my position, too. The guys with no heart, the ones who may abuse the training, won't stick it out anyway. It's a self-screening process.


 
This is an excellent point!


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## grydth (Jul 29, 2007)

This is a sound topic, Carol, as you can almost see it on the horizon....

My initial reactions, though, are: Why? What's the plus side, the intent of such a mechanism?

As jks noted, who would do it? 

As 14Kenpo has previously noted, any process would have to apply to all MA to avoid being voided in the courts for discrimination. This would be an enormous undertaking, with costs to be born by all of you. 

What would happen, then, if the background check showed a past crime? Would the person be disqualified, and if so, for what crimes? Would we have a new crime of teaching a banned person MA? What about the person with a troubled past who wanted MA as a means of helping get their life together? 

Final question: what would come next? Once government regulation starts, it usually is relentlessly intrusive.... like a choking vine. Maybe all teachers and practitioners would be licensed and registered...maybe surveillance cams and raids on dojos. Enormous fees would be imposed.... but, of course,  it would be "for the children.":barf:


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 29, 2007)

I haver to agree with much of what has been said already.

At what point and for what crimes do we disgualify a person from studying?  If a crime was commeted 15-20 years ago so we give the person a chance or not?  What happened to a person paying their dues in prison and not being judged again for the same crime?

Not saying I would let some people in my school if certian crimes where known to me but I think I might just consider the circumstances and the time (years after the crime) that they asked to study

Proper instruction over time should weed out those that want a quick way of hurting others


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## kalikg (Aug 16, 2007)

Another intrusion by the Government?  No thanks.  I have seen instances where martial arts have turned mean, potentially bad young men into upstanding, confident citizens (one in BJJ and several others in Goju)!  What if there had been a screening process in place then?  What would these guys be doing now?  Not that there shouldn't be responsibility involved with who is taught...Mr. Parson's Balintiwak instructor sounds like a perfect example of this by taking on only students who are vouched for by a current student.  Now that's community responsibility in action.

Now, why background checks for  FMA?  Is it because it (generally) is a bladed art?  Well, what about Iaido?  I believe the Spanish have an excellent knife fighting system; what about that one?  And then there's Kung Fu with all of those darned swords and sharp pointy spear thingys; certainly those fellas should implement background checks.  MMA; those guys and girls can be brutal...Hey, you know Tai Chi has combat applications too....hmmm.

Remember the slippery slope...my vote would be NO to background checks!


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## lightning (Sep 1, 2007)

for me doing background checks is just wasting time,what if you did for example and you found out the criminal is not the student, but the instructor wherein you are both studying in, what would you do?and remember in this day and age we can fabricate almost anything or cover up mostly anything.

there is also the question of, what if that so called criminal, is trying his best to reform himself or has already paid for his crimes,what then?


here's a little trivia for everybody,here in the philippines,especially in quiapo,most of the crooks here, enroll themselves in fma schools,so they can defend themselves against attacks from their would be victims.scary isn't it?


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## Morgan (Sep 23, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Are formal criminal background checks on FMA students necessary?
> 
> With FMA training encompassing impact weapons (such as sticks), edged weapons (such as knives) and sometimes firearms...a FMA student is quickly taught applications of lethal force.
> 
> ...


 
That's a very good question, but the logistics and costs are daunting. Add to that the time interval betwen the submission to the authorities and the response.  In all likelihood it will not be a quick turn-around.  There are numerous public and private agencies that are required by law to seek a criminal background check before someone can be employed and/or enter formal training.  It takes several weeks to months to get the reports back for these groups.  How and why would anyone expect that a martial arts school request would be honored any sooner/faster?  Since it is imperative to strike while the iron is hot, most school owners need to take a practical point of view regarding a potential new student.  Enroll them as soon as they show their money!  If they don't that potential student is going to leave one building and move on to another school and lay their money down on the counter.

Morgan


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## Charleston Combat (Sep 24, 2007)

Why not background checks on all martial arts? Filipino Martial Arts is just more combat oriented than most. But, all Martial Arts are potentialy lethal. It's up to the instructors to weed out these bad seeds. If you do it for one, you must do it for all.  Brad


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