# Myth Busters



## Victor Smith (Jun 9, 2007)

Time for Myth Busters

1. Only the evil American's would ever wear tattered old obi.
2. Japanese JKA cannot move to be effective self defense.

Yahara Kata: Unsu
Clips from 1982-84 JKA All Japan Championships (Kata Finals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkoxYbMipkA

Note all of these Japanese JKA competitors are wearing tattered old
obi.

And my observation their movement potential for their Unsu kata
would surely work in any self defense situation. Frankly they're
very good.

So there you have it, another Myth busted!


----------



## chinto (Jun 9, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Time for Myth Busters
> 
> 1. Only the evil American's would ever wear tattered old obi.
> 2. Japanese JKA cannot move to be effective self defense.
> ...


 

I have to agree. I have seen and met more then one older karateka who is of an okinawan style who wore a "tatterd obi" and have and continued to visit Okinawa to train under extreemly senior senseis or even hanshi on okinawa wearing them.


----------



## Andrew Green (Jun 9, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> 2. Japanese JKA cannot move to be effective self defense.



I think judging effectiveness based solely on solo kata performance is a wee bit of a stretch...


----------



## Victor Smith (Jun 10, 2007)

Andrew,

And where does one look to judge effectiveness?

Those individuals were moving with great control and alignment. Not perfect, but effective in my experience.

You take your accumulated experiences training with good instructors, you take your accumulated experiences training your own students and you evaluate potential.

And that's where I draw my opinion.

pleasantly,


----------



## Cirdan (Jun 10, 2007)

"Martial Arts progress from kata, to kumite, to combat" 

Potential is good, but it gets you exactly nowhere if you don`t tap into it.


----------



## tellner (Jun 10, 2007)

Plenty of people wear raggedy-*** belts. Japanese wash theirs new or old no matter how many times the "never wash your belt" myth is repeated
Nice forms although I think they were holding way too much tension. What exactly was this supposed to prove about how well they can fight?


----------



## chinto (Jun 11, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I think judging effectiveness based solely on solo kata performance is a wee bit of a stretch...


 

yes and no.  meany of the people who do martial arts and have done them for years have had the unfortunent experiance of being in a real confrentation. cant say for sure they have been in the case of the vidio, but i would say that there is a fairly good chance that they would be effective in combat if they were accosted.


----------



## tellner (Jun 11, 2007)

I'm sorry, but I still don't buy it. Yes, they look strong. Yes, they have some precision and speed. But lots of people can look good moving around solo. The worst pro boxer looks great when he's shadowboxing or working the bag. In other words, the video clip doesn't even come close to proving what you say it does. Something to the opposite when you think about it. Are these actually the techniques these guys would use in a fight? I'd lay you plenty of six to five or even seven to ten that the answer is "No". If they're spending that much time perfecting what they don't use to fight it detracts from the stuff they'd really use.


----------



## Victor Smith (Jun 11, 2007)

Thank you I understand the difference in our opinions.

Where I work with my students to use each and every nuance of our kata technique to drop people, and in turn when I see someone who's abilty to move is what I'm trying to develop in my students, my assumption is that they have the ablity to use what they're doing.

BTW this is a decades spanning study for my students.

Of course that's just an assumption on my part, and I can't prove those Unsu performers know how to use what they've developed, but it's so difficult to find someone who has developed themselvles to that ability my assumption is they are capable of using what they practice.

I see things that way because my instructors did and do the same. Ernest Rothrock in Tai Chi and Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai (Northern Eagle Claw), Tristan Sutrisno (Shotokan, aikido, silat tjimande), the Late Sherman Harrill in his 40+ years work in Isshinryu, each in their different tradition work to utilize each movement to drop an attack.

It may be presumptious of me but that is what we work towards, with of course varyin degrees of success.

It is with that filter my decision is based.


----------



## chinto (Jun 12, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Thank you I understand the difference in our opinions.
> 
> Where I work with my students to use each and every nuance of our kata technique to drop people, and in turn when I see someone who's abilty to move is what I'm trying to develop in my students, my assumption is that they have the ablity to use what they're doing.
> 
> ...


 

I have known some men who were exelent in kata, and I know for a fact are devestating in combat when accosted.  I do not study shotokan or any of the japanese systems, but I do study an Okinawan system of Karate and can say that they would be and have been extreemly efficent and effective in combat when they have had the unfortunent experiance to need to use that trainig. 
If all I have to judge by is their kata preformance, then I would go with the one who can do kata well. This may or may not be a dangerous assumption, as there is no garantee that they understand the aplications of what they have trained in. but, if they have trained for years and achieved the dan rank in any system ( or its equivelent) then I would say there is a better then 60% chance they will be more effective then some one who has not trained in a systemized combat training regemin. this does not mean there are not some dangerous thugs and others out there who have not trained in a system, but that if they trained in a traditional system that is not sporterized and optimized for sport type bouts,  but retians the original system then it is efficent and effective in combat or it would not have survived. After all, survival and self defence is why martial arts system of both armed, and unarmed were developed.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jun 12, 2007)

The strength, power, speed, and precision of stance and technique within the form  would all translate into a good fighting combination. Combine this with the years of experience the practitioner surly has to reach the rank he has and all the knowledge time and effort to be as good as he/they are plus all the techniques he/they most likely know from the form would say that the practitioner just might have a good chance in a fight.  Nothing is ever positive but much can be surmised from the intensity and correctness of the form.


----------



## chinto (Jun 13, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> The strength, power, speed, and precision of stance and technique within the form would all translate into a good fighting combination. Combine this with the years of experience the practitioner surly has to reach the rank he has and all the knowledge time and effort to be as good as he/they are plus all the techniques he/they most likely know from the form would say that the practitioner just might have a good chance in a fight. Nothing is ever positive but much can be surmised from the intensity and correctness of the form.


 

I tend to agree very much with that statement!


----------



## Can (Jun 21, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Note all of these Japanese JKA competitors are wearing tattered old
> obi.



The key is "old obi".  They weren't wrapped around a tree, sanded or any other nonsense like that.  There are people who do that, and you can tell.  The old obi don't have strings hanging from them like the belts of people who want to look more experienced than they are.  The strings that dangle from the young phony's belt wore off the belt that's actually old.


----------



## chinto (Jun 25, 2007)

Can said:


> The key is "old obi". They weren't wrapped around a tree, sanded or any other nonsense like that. There are people who do that, and you can tell. The old obi don't have strings hanging from them like the belts of people who want to look more experienced than they are. The strings that dangle from the young phony's belt wore off the belt that's actually old.


 
I have to say never seen one like that, but then my sensei has been wearing the same obi for about 12 or more years I think. there are indeed no loose threads hanging off it or any thing like that. its just woarn and turned mostly white as the black layers have woren away.


----------



## Victor Smith (Jun 25, 2007)

When I first observed aged obi, about 35 years ago, they were ones that had been work so long the section of the obi where the knot was tied were just strings the belt having separated at that point, on some of them, and those obi were stone white too.  Those who wore them in the mid 70's in the Penna, NJ, Md area were also the senior instructors with 15+ years in the arts at that time. (This was not everyone, but some of them).

My own obi after about 12 years of 5 to 7 days a week wearing began to have the belt separate on me, and greatly fade.  My first obi was a cheap one. I replaced it with a better obi and now about 20 or so years later it's still looking black, but there is some fraying too.

People wear what they wear, but allowing a working obi to age and grow with one is not just a current custom.

Nor is it of much consequence.

The obi is a modern convenience in martial arts history and there is no logic that implies it will be worn very long in the future either.


----------



## chinto (Jun 25, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> When I first observed aged obi, about 35 years ago, they were ones that had been work so long the section of the obi where the knot was tied were just strings the belt having separated at that point, on some of them, and those obi were stone white too. Those who wore them in the mid 70's in the Penna, NJ, Md area were also the senior instructors with 15+ years in the arts at that time. (This was not everyone, but some of them).
> 
> My own obi after about 12 years of 5 to 7 days a week wearing began to have the belt separate on me, and greatly fade. My first obi was a cheap one. I replaced it with a better obi and now about 20 or so years later it's still looking black, but there is some fraying too.
> 
> ...


 

well I know my sensei has been teaching for over 30 years, and I think its just a matter of the obi still does its job and is ok. Who knows he might replace it some day. but I also know that it is not uncomon for some one to wear their obi till they need to replace it becouse it is woren out.


----------



## truth_seeker87 (Jul 14, 2007)

In Ryukyu Kempo was pretty much don't wear our black belts after black belt. Yudansha normall wear Hakamas, however they are not as skirt like and more pant-like. Plus we don't have to do the big holding when we tie up our Hakama just fold it up.


----------



## chinto (Jul 16, 2007)

truth_seeker87 said:


> In Ryukyu Kempo was pretty much don't wear our black belts after black belt. Yudansha normall wear Hakamas, however they are not as skirt like and more pant-like. Plus we don't have to do the big holding when we tie up our Hakama just fold it up.


 

interesting. ... the only time our black belts wear their hakama is when they are officiating at a testing...


----------



## Ray B (Jul 16, 2007)

truth_seeker87 said:


> In Ryukyu Kempo was pretty much don't wear our black belts after black belt. Yudansha normall wear Hakamas, however they are not as skirt like and more pant-like. Plus we don't have to do the big holding when we tie up our Hakama just fold it up.


 
I always wondered about Oyata Sensei's hakama being different.
Can you tell us a little about it?

http://www.ryu-te-supplies.com/Hakama.htm

Thanks in advance.


----------



## TEScott (Jul 16, 2007)

One thing I know about these is that they are called nobakama or field hakama.  I don't know why Oyata Sensei settled on this particular style of clothing.  It certainly gives a unique look.  I think he even used to make them at one time a long time ago.


----------



## Ray B (Jul 17, 2007)

It looks more utilitarian and it makes sense that they were
wore in the fields, a little like the American Cowboy's chaps.
My understanding of the typical hakama was that it hid the
footwoork of the swordsman. A farmer doesn't need to hide his feet.

Thanks again!


----------



## Jdokan (Jul 17, 2007)

With regards to aged obi: I have this a measure of the individual as it relates to how much they work out...To the point I have heard HORROR stories of BB's intentionally trying to age their belt by excessive washing even rubbing against trees to break down the fibers....

Looking at the other issue of forms vs effectiveness....One of the toughest fighters I personally had the pleasure of exchanging with didn't have the "greatest/prettiest" looking form....I try to rememeber basic engineering processes...form follows function........  Now that doesn't mean I am not one of the pickiest Instructors...I used to drive students crazy because I wanted things done the absolute best possible...angles, acccuracy, speed, etc....
for what it's worth....
Peace,
Jeff


----------



## Boomer (Jul 19, 2007)

Jdokan said:


> form follows function


 

I wonder...does it?
I suppose the term "function" has changed thru the years with martial sport and so.

The traditional kata I practise seem to follow function, but I wonder about the ones with backflips and music.....


----------



## Victor Smith (Jul 19, 2007)

Boomer,

While Hidy Ochiai was using back flips in his Washin-ryu forms back in the 70's and music began being attached to forms in the 70's too (Jhoon Rhee's Bethovan's 5th form and Gary Michank's 'Superman Theme' form, they obviously have form following function.

You see it in the movies all the time. In the movies you move and the music appears auto-magically.


----------



## chinto (Jul 19, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Boomer,
> 
> While Hidy Ochiai was using back flips in his Washin-ryu forms back in the 70's and music began being attached to forms in the 70's too (Jhoon Rhee's Bethovan's 5th form and Gary Michank's 'Superman Theme' form, they obviously have form following function.
> 
> You see it in the movies all the time. In the movies you move and the music appears auto-magically.


 

LOL that is bad!  its a shame that the rot is as old as it is.  personaly i find the gymnastics and other additions towards the "gymkata-esk kind of thing just plain sad, and laughable as far as what you see done when you do see a turnement on TV.  just plain sad.


----------



## Victor Smith (Jul 20, 2007)

Chinto,

I understand what you're saying but let's take it a bit further back, into China.

Many of the Northern Chinese systems incorporated gymnastic techniques in their training, and not just for flipping.  In fact those teachings became the root for those systems to form modern Chinese WuShu, combining extreme gymnastics and 'kung fu' techniques.

I've had some minor experience in Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai, Northern Eagle Claw, and they use the gymnastics as counters for many of the extreme locks they train with. An example might be a cartwheel out of an arm lock that could break your arm (just an illustration, not necessarily a true answer)

Of course there's a large difference from those actual usages and the gymnastics of modern tournments. Then again those who have those skills probably doing what the rest of us cannot do either.


----------



## Jin Gang (Jul 20, 2007)

Yes, modern wushu takes it to the extreme, but acrobatics are a part of many traditional styles.  Being able to fall, roll, and jump are fundamentals like punching, kicking, and stances.  Ditang Quan means "ground boxing", it's a traditional northern style from Shandong which, as its name says, is pretty much all on the ground.  Falling without getting hurt, rolling, and jumping up again are pretty important skills.  a somersualt/monkey roll is a good escape for grabbed foot, or to avoid falling on your face from a front sweep.  It also covers distance quickly to get out or into range, and can surprise someone not expecting it.  

but this thread started out being about old belts in karate, so not really sure how we ended up here  
Chinese masters seem to have a predisposition for wearing shiny, single colored silk outfits.  I'd say they probably wash their clothes regularly, to keep them so shiny.


----------



## eyebeams (Jul 21, 2007)

Jin Gang said:


> Yes, modern wushu takes it to the extreme, but acrobatics are a part of many traditional styles.  Being able to fall, roll, and jump are fundamentals like punching, kicking, and stances.  Ditang Quan means "ground boxing", it's a traditional northern style from Shandong which, as its name says, is pretty much all on the ground.  Falling without getting hurt, rolling, and jumping up again are pretty important skills.  a somersualt/monkey roll is a good escape for grabbed foot, or to avoid falling on your face from a front sweep.  It also covers distance quickly to get out or into range, and can surprise someone not expecting it.
> 
> but this thread started out being about old belts in karate, so not really sure how we ended up here
> Chinese masters seem to have a predisposition for wearing shiny, single colored silk outfits.  I'd say they probably wash their clothes regularly, to keep them so shiny.



You wear gym clothes most of the time in "traditional" CMA. I wish this was true in karate, since the dogi is pretty much irrelevant to most of the technique base. Plus, as an Okinawan MA guy who never bought a dogi, it feels odd to crosstrain with karate guys without one.

Yes, sometimes karate guys in Japan and Okinawa wear old belts, but it's really not the big deal you have here. Plus, a threadbare belt can't be used for certain exercises.

One of the subtexts of moving away from the dogi in some Okinawan arts is a general desire to assert a distinct identity for Okinawan arts. Seikichi Uehara generally tucked a dark top into his pants. Then again, Seikichi Uehara could do whatever the hell he wanted.


----------



## chinto (Aug 7, 2007)

eyebeams said:


> You wear gym clothes most of the time in "traditional" CMA. I wish this was true in karate, since the dogi is pretty much irrelevant to most of the technique base. Plus, as an Okinawan MA guy who never bought a dogi, it feels odd to crosstrain with karate guys without one.
> 
> Yes, sometimes karate guys in Japan and Okinawa wear old belts, but it's really not the big deal you have here. Plus, a threadbare belt can't be used for certain exercises.
> 
> One of the subtexts of moving away from the dogi in some Okinawan arts is a general desire to assert a distinct identity for Okinawan arts. Seikichi Uehara generally tucked a dark top into his pants. Then again, Seikichi Uehara could do whatever the hell he wanted.


 

yep, when you reach his rank and statious you can do as you wish I would think.


----------

