# Master and Grandmaster titles



## andyjeffries (Jan 21, 2015)

From another thread:



Earl Weiss said:


> I stand corrected. Reminds me of the time when I invited Nam Tae Hi to teach. he referred to me as "Master" and I was a 6th Dan.   So as not to get into hot water I told the assembled that while flattered I was not a "Master" but I knew better than to correct my senior. ...They laughed.



Most Kukki-Taekwondo consider you to be a Master at 4th Dan, so I'd have called him Master Piller anyway.

The interesting one comes at Grandmaster...  This is diverging from my original thread on side kick improvements, so I've split it out.

What do you consider the requirements for the title Master and Grandmaster where you are?

Master for us has always been fairly fixed - 4th Dan Kukkiwon is Master rank.  There are some that say "it's not until 5th Dan", but 4th Dan is where promotion privileges as well as full graduation from the Master Training Course at the Kukkiwon take place, so that's where I feel it should be too.

Grandmaster seems to be fluid.  My instructor always said - when another grandmaster or your instructor calls you grandmaster, then it's effectively giving you the right to that title.  A rather rude guy on the instructor course told my instructor that he isn't one (my instructor is 8th Dan Kukkiwon, 9th Dan Changmookwan and KKW 1st Class instructor) because the requirement is 9th Dan KKW and 1st Class.

I asked my contact at Changmookwan HQ in Korea and they said that it's an automatic title at 9th Dan CMK/KKW, but as above, if your seniors call you Grandmaster then that is valid too.

So, what are your thoughts?


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 21, 2015)

There is a book called "Living the Martial way" Good book on many counts.  Without naming names he talks about an org that reduced the rank where the term "Master"  was used. (Seems pretty clear it was the KKW) His point was "How can you be a master of a system when the entire syllabus is not taught to you at the time you reach that level."

 He addresses about 20 pages to this topic. 

At the end of the day,the title adheres when the Seniors / Org. have dictated it appears.

Oh, and I think I saw an articl;e about this somewhere
https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...ghB2AzAFVbnt8A0YSH46JlfPV1uw==&attredirects=0


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 21, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> There is a book called "Living the Martial way" Good book on many counts.  Without naming names he talks about an org that reduced the rank where the term "Master"  was used. (Seems pretty clear it was the KKW) His point was "How can you be a master of a system when the entire syllabus is not taught to you at the time you reach that level.
> 
> At the end of the day,the title adheres when the Seniors / Org. have dictated it appears.



Interesting thoughts.  I suspect at higher ranks what you say is correct.  Although there would possibly be some differences based on what the highest rank was.  In the 60s, we were told that the highest  belts in TKD were 8th Dan.  If we were told they should be addressed as Grand Master, I don't recall that (of course, I was being taught by a 6th dan, not a 7th or 8th dan).

In the Hapkido I studied, 4th Dan was considered a master, and 7th and 8th Dan were Grand Masters.  I presume it was the same in TKD in the 60s, but as I said, I don't really know for sure.  There was a time when they considered going to 10th Dan, but I think so many of the long time GM just weren't interested, so they reverted back.

I never delved into it, but I always associated those titles with European titles such as Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master.  An experienced journeyman was considered very knowledgeable, but wouldn't have necessarily known everything.  Perhaps not even a new master.  I think probably the amount of experience played a part as well as some kind of recommendation and testing.  I could be completely out in left field since I really don't know anything more about that.

I wonder if MA are the same?  Since there is more than one level of master, and more than one of grand master, at what point is one expected to know everything?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 21, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> At the end of the day,the title adheres when the Seniors / Org. have dictated it appears.



This.
When I first met my instructor, he was a 3rd Dan. He'd been one for something like 20 or 25 years because he'd simply declined to promote. Since then he's been pushed to 5th Dan despite his reluctance.
Our Kwanjang called him Master Valdez at 3rd Dan, so that was good enough for me.

It's worth remembering that these are western titles. I am not even sure that Korean _*has*_ words for these titles. Certainly, the terms commonly used in schools (Busabum, Sabum, Kyosa, Kwanjang...) are all various ways of saying teacher.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 21, 2015)

andyjeffries said:


> What do you consider the requirements for the title Master and Grandmaster where you are?



A minimum requirement would be, IMHO, knowledge of the entirety of the formal syllabus of whatever art you study. If you're still learning new aspects of it I would say that either 1) you're not really a Master, or 2) Master means something more akin to what it means in the skilled trades where the title of apprentice, journeyman, and master are traditionally used. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this but if that is the approach one takes then they should be a bit less put off when people don't refer to them as Master (or Grand Master).



> Grandmaster seems to be fluid.  My instructor always said - when another grandmaster or your instructor calls you grandmaster, then it's effectively giving you the right to that title.  A rather rude guy on the instructor course told my instructor that he isn't one (my instructor is 8th Dan Kukkiwon, 9th Dan Changmookwan and KKW 1st Class instructor) because the requirement is 9th Dan KKW and 1st Class.



I have always thought the KKW called people Grand Master at 8th dan (and have met several who do use it at that rank). I didn't know it was supposed to be for 9th dans. Interesting.

In the ITF Grand Master is a title reserved for IX dan alone. I don't know of anybody who would actually tell a IX dan that they aren't a Grand Master to their face. If they did the most likely result would be having several very senior VIII dans all giving them a well-deserved lecture on manners.  Given the difference in organizational cultures I have trouble imagining an VIII dan referring to themselves as "Grand Master," although I know of at least one "ITF-style" organization which uses the term for VIII dans.



> I asked my contact at Changmookwan HQ in Korea and they said that it's an automatic title at 9th Dan CMK/KKW, but as above, if your seniors call you Grandmaster then that is valid too.



Out of curiosity, is the title Grand Master that you refer to here simply Kwan Jang? Or is it a different Korean term? Or is it just what is used when speaking English?

The ITF uses specific titles which, as far as I am aware, are unique. VII and VIII dan use Sahyun (사현) while IX dan is referred to as Sasung (사성). 사 translates as "teacher" while 현 is relates to virtue or wisdom, thus Sahyun could loosely be translated as "wise teacher." Sasung uses the same character for teacher and 성 which means "sage." Sasung therefore means "teacher-sage."

Pax,

Chris


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 21, 2015)

No longer being in the Korean arts anymore comes from a complete outsider at this time.
I have heard of many Korean instructors being called Grandmaster at 7th or 8th but My question is what is the head of the system given for a title.  Should not the head of the system/organization be the one and only grandmaster whit every one under him/her just being a master? Why confuse people with so many Grandmasters?

edit    this is asked with true respect and an enquiringly mind


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 21, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> No longer being in the Korean arts anymore comes from a complete outsider at this time.
> I have heard of many Korean instructors being called Grandmaster at 7th or 8th but My question is what is the head of the system given for a title.  Should not the head of the system/organization be the one and only grandmaster whit every one under him/her just being a master? Why confuse people with so many Grandmasters?
> 
> edit    this is asked with true respect and an enquiringly mind



The head of a Korean system is the Kwanjang (nim is an honorific, basically "respected", and is only used in reference to the Sabum, Kwanjang, etc. Never in reference to oneself.) but Kwanjang is roughly equivalent to Headmaster. As in "Head of the school". Strictly speaking, if you run your own school, you're Kwanjang, regardless of rank.
As for Grandmaster... I don't really know... our Kwanjang (8th Dan KKW, 9th Dan MDK) just signs "Master". The signatures I have from GM CHO, Hee Il say "Master". I've never asked, but it's entirely possible that to their way of thinking, the "Grand" is equivalent to "nim" and never used for oneself.
As I said, I am unaware of a Korean word that actually translates as "Master" or "Grandmaster",and I believe that these titles are merely western concepts that we're trying to shoehorn into an eastern setting.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 21, 2015)

,informative answer thank you


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## WaterGal (Jan 21, 2015)

There's an interesting idea I see here from a couple of posters, that a Master is someone that "knows everything".  By that standard, then, nobody is a Master.  As long as you keep training, you're going to learn something new.

But I think, past a certain point, the "new material" in the curriculum is largely a formality, to show that you're still training.


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## Buka (Jan 21, 2015)

My TKD instructor is an eighth. Under his direction, his students and my students address me as Kwanjang-nim, even though I was a fourth, explaining that it symbolized my being the director and chief instructor of a dojo. We also addressed him as Kwanjang-nim. (Hey, I just do as I'm told) The titles of Master and Grandmaster weren't used in either of our organizations.

For the last twenty years I go by the title of Coach. He's still Kwanjang-nim, though.


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## RhythmGJ (Jan 21, 2015)

Interesting discussion. I am totally unfamiliar with Korean arts, but as I've recently re-entered the TMA world, and have been studying a number of different traditions (Japanese, Filipino, Brasilian, Russian, along with Western/European fencing), and have even taken a lesson with a Chinese practitioner of Japanese Kenjutsu (!)... Needless to say, keeping my various "Coaches, Guros, Tuhans, Sifus, Senseis, Shihans, Instructors, Professors, and Masters" straight has been a bit of a daunting task.

I recently saw this article that gives a little perspective on the whole "honorific title" thing. It would be interesting to hear your responses (although admittedly, the author is focusing on Japanese tradition rather than Korean, or anything else).

Anyway, here's the link:

Honorifics in Meibukan NOX Dojo Markham Karate





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 22, 2015)

Buka said:


> For the last twenty years I go by the title of Coach.



At my gym the standard term of address for instructors is either their first name or "coach." I'm still getting used to be called "coach", but I kind of like it. It doesn't imply that I'm on some elevated level compared to the students - just that I have some insights to help them improve.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 22, 2015)

RhythmGJ said:


> Interesting discussion. I am totally unfamiliar with Korean arts, but as I've recently re-entered the TMA world, and have been studying a number of different traditions (Japanese, Filipino, Brasilian, Russian, along with Western/European fencing), and have even taken a lesson with a Chinese practitioner of Japanese Kenjutsu (!)... Needless to say, keeping my various "Coaches, Guros, Tuhans, Sifus, Senseis, Shihans, Instructors, Professors, and Masters" straight has been a bit of a daunting task.
> 
> I recently saw this article that gives a little perspective on the whole "honorific title" thing. It would be interesting to hear your responses (although admittedly, the author is focusing on Japanese tradition rather than Korean, or anything else).
> 
> ...



I largely agree with the sentiments in the article. I have heard some westerners refer to themselves as "Master," in Taekwon-Do but their attitude when doing so made it apparent they were simply using it as a title, similar to how one would introduce themselves as "Dr. So-and-so" if they were a doctor. In both situations a person could use the title simply because that's what they are, or to show people how awesome they are ("Hey, I'm a DOCTOR, and you're not!"). That being said, I don't really care for people introducing themselves as Master/Sahyun and know some very senior practitioners who, when meeting someone or introducing themselves will simply use their name and no title.

Generally speaking, titles are for other people to use in reference to the person who has them.

And if you are having trouble remembering which title goes with which person when you're talking to them I have found that you can't go wrong with  simple "sir" or "ma'am" (and a bow).

Pax,

Chris


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## andyjeffries (Jan 22, 2015)

chrispillertkd said:


> I have always thought the KKW called people Grand Master at 8th dan (and have met several who do use it at that rank). I didn't know it was supposed to be for 9th dans. Interesting.



I think most do consider it at 8th Dan (whether that is Kukkiwon rank or Kwan rank), this was one guy saying that.



chrispillertkd said:


> Out of curiosity, is the title Grand Master that you refer to here simply Kwan Jang? Or is it a different Korean term? Or is it just what is used when speaking English?



Just English titles.

Another interesting version I had heard is that Master is someone who has the right to promote other people (so in Kukkiwon terms a 4th Dan).  And when you have one of your students go from white belt to master rank then you are a Grandmaster.  Thinking in terms of Father (when you are old/high enough rank to have your own children/students) and Grandfather (when when one your children/students is old/high enough rank to have their own).  An interesting way of thinking it.

I definitely don't think of Master as having complete mastery of the art, it's just a title that expresses that you know enough, well enough to give others Dan rank.  If it meant complete mastery, then it surely would only be at 9th Dan - and there'd be no need for Grandmaster as any title.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 22, 2015)

Well, FWIW, my initial comment on the title "Master" was that it should entail "*knowledge* of the entirety of the formal syllabus of whatever art you study." If one doesn't know the system one can't be a Master in the first place, IMNSHO. That's why I personally prefer the ITF's way of handling things (you aren't considered a Master until VII dan). You can promote students to dan rank when you're certified as an International Instructor (minimum of IV dan).

I know other organizations handle things differently and more power to them. They just have a different concept of what a Master is. On a sliding scale I would say that the ITF has an understanding of Master being _closer_ to one who has mastery of a system while the KKW is _closer_ to the apprentice/journeyman/master skilled trade understanding. I could be wrong, that's just how it seems to me.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 22, 2015)

andyjeffries said:


> I think most do consider it at 8th Dan (whether that is Kukkiwon rank or Kwan rank), this was one guy saying that.



Interesting. I wonder where he got his information. I also wonder what rank he happens to hold 

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 22, 2015)

Titles aside, the whole issue of rank, historicaly vs current is frought with issues.   reading He Young Kims book, he relates that Lee Won Kuk became a 4th Dan in Shotokan in 4 years.  We know the history of General Choi being a second in Shotokan and then an Honorary 4th in the CDK which may or may not have been because it was a civilian gym and he was military and then there was the rise in rank for lee won Kuk and General Choi from 4th to 9th and the timelines were? 

in the ITF it takes many 25-30 years to reach 7th Dan.  I saw Han Cha Kyo cert and he was K-8-6 in 1973.  He was born in 1934 so he was all of 39 years old and in those days they rarely started as young children. 

While training may have been harder and Mc Dojangs aside, training and knowledge now is much better than in those days.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 22, 2015)

I think how mastery can be considered depends how the syllabus is weighted i.e. where the material requiring physical mastery is covered. By 4th dan, there aren't many new physical testing requirements that are really going to push a person or ask them to demonstrate any new principles. The majority of the physical aspects have been covered and drilled in / mastered. After that, more mind and spirit along with teaching and testing, and furthering the growth of Taekwondo.

I also think that these titles get blown out of proportion. I would take actual respect over a title any day.


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## Buka (Jan 22, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> At my gym the standard term of address for instructors is either their first name or "coach." I'm still getting used to be called "coach", but I kind of like it. It doesn't imply that I'm on some elevated level compared to the students - just that I have some insights to help them improve.



I like the "Coach" thing. I'll go out that way.

You go with the flow. For the first ten years I taught, my students only addressed me by my first name. Later, as I trained under various Instructors, they insisted my students address me as...whatever. Later still, it would be something else. Now it's just Coach. (Pay dues long enough you do what you want)

The only good thing about the various monikers - you run into folks who trained with you a year or two, which was a big part of their lives, but it's a blip on the radar in yours. Five to thirty years have past, they don't look anything like they did before, their hair, age, weight, health, posture - it's all different. When they call you by....whatever, you know from what era/school/circumstance/state they're from and you can remember them easier. I like to remember people, but sometimes it's just hard.

I address anyone in the arts by however they're addressed. Be it Master, GM, their first name, Shihan, Sensei, Coach, Kwanjang-nim, Sabu-nim, Proffessor, Sifu, Sir, etc, it's all good.  Martial etiquette is big in my book and that's what I go by.  Outside the dojo they're just another old, scarred son of a ***** like me and we say whatever we want to each other.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 23, 2015)

When developing the IKSDA as a formal governing authority for the schools under our umbrella we deliberated long and hard on the topics of master and grandmaster.  Looking around the martial arts world it's easy to see that there is an inundation of grandmasters/supreme grandmasters/ultimate grandmaster etc.  We wanted to officially and properly recognize the instructors within our group while staying away from all the nonsense.  

What we officially decided was this;  master would be the rank of 4th Dan.  At this rank the complete system, as far as syllabus is concerned has been learned (taking into account that depth of learning will always continue to be added regardless of Dan rank as well as continuing education).  

For the title of GM we debated whether to even use it or not.  We finally decided that within the entire association there would be only one GM and that would be the highest ranked individual that also held the position of IKSDA Director.  This would be the Dan rank of 9th Dan.  So within the IKSDA, there is only one 9th Dan who is the only GM.  The highest Dan rank that can be achieved otherwise is 8th Dan and the title of master.  When the GM formally retires then he appoints a successor.  But he is allowed to retain the title of GM as a point of honor.


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## dancingalone (Jan 25, 2015)

If I could do away with titles like master or grandmaster, I would.  Stick with the Korean honorifics for teacher or instructor and leave it at that.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 25, 2015)

dancingalone said:


> If I could do away with titles like master or grandmaster, I would.  Stick with the Korean honorifics for teacher or instructor and leave it at that.



I've always been fascinated by the fact that Japanese/Okinawan Arts have ingrained "sensei" into the Western lexicon, but Koreans have not done that with Sa Boem. I'd like to see the Korean terms used instead of "master," also. 

My first instructor, a Korean man, went by "Mr." or SBN. Even his business cards read, "Mr. Yun Kil Kim, Master Instructor." I have my students call me "Mr. Jensen," or SBN, as well.

My late grandmaster, on the other hand, was very formal (as is his wife, who now runs the organization after his death). In the 10 years I've known them, neither of them have ever called me by my first name (always by my title of either "Mr." or "Master"), even in causal conversation. 

I'm formal with others when I meet them. I'll call someone "Master" (if the title applies) & introduce myself as "Tom." More than once, the person has said, "call me by my first name."  Grandmaster is usually always grandmaster to me (on or off the mat) unless I've known them for many years, or outside of class. (Of those, there are only two people. One I grew up with, and the other is a man I trained with more than 30 years ago & have always called by his first name).


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> No longer being in the Korean arts anymore comes from a complete outsider at this time.
> I have heard of many Korean instructors being called Grandmaster at 7th or 8th but My question is what is the head of the system given for a title.  Should not the head of the system/organization be the one and only grandmaster whit every one under him/her just being a master? Why confuse people with so many Grandmasters?
> 
> edit    this is asked with true respect and an enquiringly mind


Senior Grandmaster, duh...


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## TrueJim (Jan 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Senior Grandmaster, duh...



Yah, it goes: Master, Grandmaster, Senior Grandmaster, Supreme Grandmaster, Imperial Grandmaster, Senior Supreme Imperial Grandmaster, and then Senior Supreme Imperial Grandmaster with a Cherry On Top.  But the Cherry is usually only awarded posthumously.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 27, 2015)

Head of Gym - Kwan Jang

Head of system term used by General Choi (and also Lee Won Kuk I believe)   Chong Shee Jah  (Phonetic Spelling also followed by Honorific "Nim")


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 27, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Yah, it goes: Master, Grandmaster, Senior Grandmaster, Supreme Grandmaster, Imperial Grandmaster, Senior Supreme Imperial Grandmaster, and then Senior Supreme Imperial Grandmaster with a Cherry On Top.  But the Cherry is usually only awarded posthumously.



Well, long ago I ascended to Super Duper Omnipotent Eternal Intergalactic Supreme Great Grandmaster.  My next level will add Imperial with the cherry.


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## Spookey (Feb 8, 2015)

Here are my thoughts, combined with some research of times past and present... 

First, we are taught that improvement never ceases so use of the term master (in Asian culture) doesn't mean "one who has mastered a subject", but rather more similar to a master craftsman. 

*Students:* (Jeja)

These are often referred to as pupils, or Jeja in Korean. They are generally less developed practitioners who are in the newer stages of martial arts training.

*Apprentices:* (Senior Students)

Much like a disciple, these persons are students who have grown beyond training as a hobby, and are devoted to learning the master's craft.

*Journeyman:* (Assistant Instructor / Boo Sabum or Jo Kyu Nim, etc.)

Having learned the basics of the master's craft they are fundamentally strong in the basics, yet still continue to gain wisdom on the finer points of the master's ideals. They may be tasked by the master craftsman to teach some portions of the fundamentals to a newer apprentice.

*Master:* (Master Craftsman / Senior Teacher / Sabum)

Not only has this person developed a high level of skill in the craft of reference, but they have also begun to develop a strong methodology for passing this on to others. 

*Senior Master:* (Headmaster / Grandmaster / Kwan Jang)

A leader in his field, one who continues to progress, and who even other master craftsmen admire and consult. Not only is his level of experience great, but also his actions to pass the craft on to other generations. He is truly the teacher of teacher!

Traditionally, as relates to Asian martial arts, the issuance of rank and title are two separate appointments.  While there may be a minimum rank standard, titles are not one in the same. For instance, no matter how long one studies a subject, they are not a teacher until they take on a students. Based on this logic, a martial scholar would not become a teacher until he took on teaching duties, and would not be a master until he had produced a quality student. Once that student reached a level of maturity and took on students of his own, then his teacher would be a master (one who has taught teachers) and yet a Grandmaster, one who has taught masters. 

Plain and simple, if you don't have children, don't plan on being a "Father", and if your children never have children don't expect to be called Grand Father.  

At the end of the day, to much emphasis is placed on titles, while not enough emphasis is placed on being of service to others. A master is not to be served, unless he is the master of slaves. A true master is one who provides infinite service to the development of others!

TAEKWON!


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## Rev Az (Feb 9, 2015)

andyjeffries said:


> From another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reading this thread, I see that most of you are speaking of TKD. I know very little of this system as I specialize in Japanese arts. Speaking from a Japanese standpoint, You become ELIGIBLE to become a Master at 5th Dan, once rank is reached you take master "classes" . Grandmaster is usually 10th Dan, but occasionally 9th Dan.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 9, 2015)

Rev Az said:


> Reading this thread, I see that most of you are speaking of TKD.



Just a wild guess here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is probably because this is the TKD forum...



Rev Az said:


> I know very little of this system as I specialize in Japanese arts. Speaking from a Japanese standpoint, You become ELIGIBLE to become a Master at 5th Dan, once rank is reached you take master "classes" . Grandmaster is usually 10th Dan, but occasionally 9th Dan.



That's painting an awful lot of different arts with a phenomenally wide brush...


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 9, 2015)

Rev Az said:


> Reading this thread, I see that most of you are speaking of TKD. I know very little of this system as I specialize in Japanese arts. Speaking from a Japanese standpoint, You become ELIGIBLE to become a Master at 5th Dan, once rank is reached you take master "classes" . Grandmaster is usually 10th Dan, but occasionally 9th Dan.


"Master" and "Grandmaster" are not terms typically used in the Japanese arts I'm familiar with. Can you explain which arts you are speaking of and which Japanese terms you are translating as "Master" and "Grandmaster"?


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> "Master" and "Grandmaster" are not terms typically used in the Japanese arts I'm familiar with. Can you explain which arts you are speaking of and which Japanese terms you are translating as "Master" and "Grandmaster"?




See post #27


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## Tez3 (Feb 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> "Master" and "Grandmaster" are not terms typically used in the Japanese arts I'm familiar with. Can you explain which arts you are speaking of and which Japanese terms you are translating as "Master" and "Grandmaster"?


I agree, I don't know any 'Grandmasters' in karate and I know people that are 6th, 7th and 8th Dans and a bit beyond.


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## Cirdan (Feb 10, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I agree, I don't know any 'Grandmasters' in karate and I know people that are 6th, 7th and 8th Dans and a bit beyond.



I don`t know any grandmasters in Karate either, however Ju Jitsu does use titles such as Renshi, Shian, Kyoshi and Hanshi. I don`t know their exact meaning however.


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## Rev Az (Feb 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Just a wild guess here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is probably because this is the TKD forum...
> 
> 
> 
> That's painting an awful lot of different arts with a phenomenally wide brush...


I found a forum and replied to it. I didn't realize that it was a TKD forum... and yes I was being very general. As mentioned jujitsu uses the title. As well as Aikido and ninjutsu.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 10, 2015)

Rev Az said:


> I found a forum and replied to it. I didn't realize that it was a TKD forum... and yes I was being very general. As mentioned jujitsu uses the title. As well as Aikido and ninjutsu.



So the brush gets a little less broad, but it's still too broad. The levels you mentioned apply to SOME jujutsu (if it's spelled jujitsu, I'd question its autheticity...) systems, SOME Aikido systems and SOME Ninjutsu systems.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 10, 2015)

Rev Az said:


> I found a forum and replied to it. I didn't realize that it was a TKD forum... and yes I was being very general. As mentioned jujitsu uses the title. As well as Aikido and ninjutsu.


I'll repeat my earlier question - what Japanese terms are you translating as "master" and "grandmaster'?

I've seen "Shihan" translated as "master instructor", although usually not as just "master." (I've also seen it translated as "senior instructor.") Different organizations have different rules for who is considered a Shihan. There are no universal rules matching the title to a given dan rank.

I'm not sure what term you would translate as "grandmaster." I've seen people use the term to refer to the soke of a system, but I don't think that's an accurate translation. Even so, it certainly wouldn't map to a dan ranking.


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## Rev Az (Feb 11, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So the brush gets a little less broad, but it's still too broad. The levels you mentioned apply to SOME jujutsu (if it's spelled jujitsu, I'd question its autheticity...) systems, SOME Aikido systems and SOME Ninjutsu systems.


I'm not a spelling major... I'm also not Japanese. I don't speak Japanese. Only the terms I was taught. All I can do is pass on what I was taught. I know for a fact the validity of my ninjutsu school, however the other two are American schools and I can only go from my experiences there and what I was told by the instructors.


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## Cirdan (Feb 11, 2015)

Rev Az said:


> I found a forum and replied to it. I didn't realize that it was a TKD forum... and yes I was being very general. As mentioned jujitsu uses the title. As well as Aikido and ninjutsu.



Um, I mentioned the titles Renshi, Shihan, Kyoshi and Hanshi which does not neccesarily translate to master or grandmaster.
To be more specific our Ju Jitsu club is a member of the World Kobudo Federation which issues the titles and certificates.


As for the spelling (how many variations is there, 20? 30?) with my extremely limited knowledge of Japanese I`d rather use _Ju Jutsu_ than _Ju Jitsu_ but it is not a big deal and I have never bothered to discuss it with my teachers at all. Anyone who question our club based on the name of the art are welcome to drop by anytime.


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## Rev Az (Feb 11, 2015)

Cirdan said:


> Um, I mentioned the titles Renshi, Shihan, Kyoshi and Hanshi which does not neccesarily translate to master or grandmaster.
> To be more specific our Ju Jitsu club is a member of the World Kobudo Federation which issues the titles and certificates.
> 
> 
> As for the spelling (how many variations is there, 20? 30?) with my extremely limited knowledge of Japanese I`d rather use _Ju Jutsu_ than _Ju Jitsu_ but it is not a big deal and I have never bothered to discuss it with my teachers at all. Anyone who question our club based on the name of the art are welcome to drop by anytime.


No one ( to my knowledge) is questioning you sir. I believe the insults from big bad Chris were meant for me... I think it's funny... internet tough guy.. they're all over. As for your post Cirdan, I don't know the literal translation either. And I'm certainly not going to judge a school based on its spelling...


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## Tez3 (Feb 11, 2015)

Rev Az said:


> No one ( to my knowledge) is questioning you sir. I believe the insults from big bad Chris were meant for me... I think it's funny... internet tough guy.. they're all over. As for your post Cirdan, I don't know the literal translation either. And I'm certainly not going to judge a school based on its spelling...




'Big bad Chris'? Oh dear, I think before you decide he's getting at you and you thinking he's some sort of internet tough guy, you might want to read what he posts a lot more than you have. I wouldn't take them as insults either, he's telling you from his considerable knowledge and experience how things are. Disagree by all means but don't assume you know better....because you don't actually.

spelling...well, yes it is important if it changes the sense of what you are trying to say and if it shows that something is not legitimate.


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## Cirdan (Feb 11, 2015)

Rev Az said:


> No one ( to my knowledge) is questioning you sir. I believe the insults from big bad Chris were meant for me... I think it's funny... internet tough guy.. they're all over. As for your post Cirdan, I don't know the literal translation either. And I'm certainly not going to judge a school based on its spelling...



Speaking about though guys, care to share some details about your training background? Your profile info is.. interesting.



> 7th Dan- ninjutsu
> 5th Dan- jujitsu
> 4th Dan- Aikido


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## Chris Parker (Feb 11, 2015)

Rev Az said:


> Reading this thread, I see that most of you are speaking of TKD. I know very little of this system as I specialize in Japanese arts. Speaking from a Japanese standpoint, You become ELIGIBLE to become a Master at 5th Dan, once rank is reached you take master "classes" . Grandmaster is usually 10th Dan, but occasionally 9th Dan.



Hmm. No.

Look, in some systems, maybe… and that's really about all you can say… as well as pointing out, of course, that such terms are typically used in Western iterations of such arts, or by Western practitioners of such arts that don't understand the Japanese terms… I have come across exactly zero Japanese arts that use the term "Grandmaster", for example… 



Cirdan said:


> I don`t know any grandmasters in Karate either, however Ju Jitsu does use titles such as Renshi, Shian, Kyoshi and Hanshi. I don`t know their exact meaning however.



Some systems can use those titles, yeah. Largely, Shogo titles (Shihan, Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi etc) were popularised by the Dai Nippon Butokukai, which existed from the end of the 19th through to the mid-20th Century… which makes it rather modern, in all consideration. The Dai Nippon Butokukai, really, eventually turned into the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, among other organisations, who have continued to use such terms within their various systems. 

It's also interesting to note that such titles are not universally applied… Aikido's highest title is Shihan… which pretty literally means "teacher", or "model to be followed/example"… whereas in Kendo, it's Hanshi ("senior teacher", or literally "model warrior/gentleman", or "example of a person"). Other terms, such as Kyoshi and Renshi, are differing levels of teaching certification, which is really all the titles apply to. Again, though, the order, and application, varies from organisation to organisation, and are not all used in any one type of art. Within the Bujinkan, for example, you have yudansha (dan graded), Shidoshi-ho (junior teacher), Shidoshi (teacher), Shihan (senior teacher), a relatively recent addition of Dai Shihan (very senior teacher), and the Soke at the top (also known as Iemoto, and is really not "grandmaster", as much as "leader" of the ryu… or "caretaker" of it).

For the record, the translations are as follows:

Kyoshi (教師) - "teacher/teaching master"
Renshi (練士) - "Refined gentleman/warrior"
Hanshi (範士) - "Model gentleman/warrior"
Shihan (師範) - "Teaching model".



Rev Az said:


> I found a forum and replied to it. I didn't realize that it was a TKD forum... and yes I was being very general. As mentioned jujitsu uses the title. As well as Aikido and ninjutsu.



No, Ninjutsu doesn't use "master" or "grandmaster"… the Genbukan uses the Kyoshi/Renshi/Shihan titles, whereas the Bujinkan doesn't use Kyoshi or Renshi… and Shihan is used differently, and largely personally (there are debates about exactly what constitutes a "shihan" in the Bujinkan, as some choose to only apply it to certain persons, and not others, seemingly against the direction of Hatsumi… which is odd). Aikido doesn't use the titles at all, with Shihan being used only in some organisations… and a unique title of Doshu being applied to the successor of Ueshiba Sensei (who is also afforded the title O'Sensei, or "great teacher"). Jujutsu only uses it in certain organisations, and again, largely Western ones.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I'll repeat my earlier question - what Japanese terms are you translating as "master" and "grandmaster'?
> 
> I've seen "Shihan" translated as "master instructor", although usually not as just "master." (I've also seen it translated as "senior instructor.") Different organizations have different rules for who is considered a Shihan. There are no universal rules matching the title to a given dan rank.



Yep.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure what term you would translate as "grandmaster." I've seen people use the term to refer to the soke of a system, but I don't think that's an accurate translation. Even so, it certainly wouldn't map to a dan ranking.



The concept of Soke, or Iemoto, is a fairly complex one… and not one that I think we need to go into on the TKD forum… for here, it's sufficient to say that the term in no way means "grandmaster"… in fact, the Soke of a number of systems aren't even practitioners (such as Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu). In short, it's the person who is responsible for the safe keeping of the system… the legal inheritor, so to speak.



Rev Az said:


> I'm not a spelling major... I'm also not Japanese. I don't speak Japanese. Only the terms I was taught. All I can do is pass on what I was taught. I know for a fact the validity of my ninjutsu school, however the other two are American schools and I can only go from my experiences there and what I was told by the instructors.



Yeah… again, what school of Ninjutsu is this?



Rev Az said:


> No one ( to my knowledge) is questioning you sir. I believe the insults from big bad Chris were meant for me... I think it's funny... internet tough guy.. they're all over. As for your post Cirdan, I don't know the literal translation either. And I'm certainly not going to judge a school based on its spelling...



Hmm… "big bad Chris"? I hadn't even entered into this thread before this… and I didn't spot anyone else named Chris in the discussions you were having… hmm… 

Oh, and what Cirdan is saying is that "Jujutsu" is considered the correct romanization of "柔術", with the second character (術) not being able to be pronounced "jitsu". That would be a completely different word (実), with a very different meaning. Pretty much all authentic Japanese arts will use the correct transliteration, but many non-Japanese (or quasi-Japanese) variants use the older, incorrect spelling. It's even more apparent in Ninjutsu circles, for the record…


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## terryl965 (Feb 11, 2015)

Real simple KKW standards is 4th is consider Master and 8th is consider Grand Master. It is what it is and every single person I know in Olympic taekwondo is mainly called coach, but the title stay in the dojaang. Last thing Sabanim is a school owner not Kwanjanim that is for the kwon leader only.


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## WaterGal (Feb 12, 2015)

terryl965 said:


> Real simple KKW standards is 4th is consider Master and 8th is consider Grand Master. It is what it is and every single person I know in Olympic taekwondo is mainly called coach, but the title stay in the dojaang. Last thing Sabanim is a school owner not Kwanjanim that is for the kwon leader only.



Sahbum (사범) is Korean for "instructor".  Kwanjang (관장) means "training hall chief".


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## Gnarlie (Feb 13, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Sahbum (사범) is Korean for "instructor".  Kwanjang (관장) means "training hall chief".


My experience with Koreans to date is a preference for students to have a friendly first name relationship with them rather than a formal one. When we want to be formal (which they never demand, but is prudent in front of children and beginners, for example), we use master, not grandmaster. They also confer master upon other black belt instructors even below 4th dan when we teach children together. When visiting Koreans are present I refer to both them and our school leader as as second name + 'Sabeomnim'. I have noticed that korean  visitors sometimes use 'Kwanjangnim' for our school leader,but this is not a title he requests in any way. 

He doesn't use any master or grandmaster title when referring to himself, just his name. Even in writing, just his dan grade and academic qualifications.

It seems in keeping with our tenets (modesty) that titles are something that others should choose bestow upon a person at each individual occasion as appropriate, rather than being blanket applied. 

People get too focused on it in my opinion. For the same reason, I don't wear stripes on my belt. People can see in me whatever qualities they like, based upon my behaviour at that time. Doesn't bother me if they line up in front of me, and I will defer by default if I don't know their grade, it really doesn't matter. And a good instructor can see from what I'm doing where I am at.


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## Balrog (Feb 13, 2015)

In our style, when you promote to 6th Degree, you become a Master Candidate.  You are then evaluated by the Powers That Be with criteria over and above what was required for rank promotion, and if all the criteria are met, you are invited to join the next Master's class.  You spend a year doing extra training, both physical and mental, then you are inducted as a Master Instructor.  The process is repeated for 7th Degree and Sr. Master as well as 8th Degree and Chief Master.  There is a totally different set of requirements for 9th Degree and Grand Master.

I went through the Master's training two years ago and SWMBO is going through it now.  It's a reasonably grueling process and it really helps you understand a lot more about the title and the responsibility that goes with it.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 18, 2015)

terryl965 said:


> Real simple KKW standards is 4th is consider Master and 8th is consider Grand Master.



Well, it would be "[r]eal simple" if the KKW were the be all and end all of TKD. It's not.



terryl965 said:


> It is what it is and every single person I know in Olympic taekwondo is mainly called coach, but the title stay in the dojaang. Last thing Sabanim is a school owner not Kwanjanim that is for the kwon leader only.



That is incorrect. The title is "sabum", not "sabumnim". The -nim is an honorific indicating respect, and is only applied by others, never by oneself.
The translation of "sabum" is "teacher", and of "kwanjang" is "headmaster" or "leader of the school". "Kwan" means school.
So what you've said above is "[incorrrect translation of teacher] 'respected school leader' is for the school leader only". Yeah. Sure. That would most often be the person who owns the school.
Now, if that person considers their school to be subservient or guided by someone else, it would certainly be their prerogative to NOT use the title of Kwanjang. It's certainly their prerogative to use it, though, since all it really means is 'the person who runs the school'.

Personally, I think of the kwanjang as the head of the system, but I recognize that this is NOT the real translation of the terms, and that others are free to use them differently. Especially since we are (as I've said before) trying to impose western concepts on eastern terms.


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## Spookey (Feb 22, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, it would be "[r]eal simple" if the KKW were the be all and end all of TKD. It's not.
> 
> Now, if that person considers their school to be subservient or guided by someone else, it would certainly be their prerogative to NOT use the title of Kwanjang. It's certainly their prerogative to use it, though, since all it really means is 'the person who runs the school'.
> 
> Personally, I think of the kwanjang as the head of the system, but I recognize that this is NOT the real translation of the terms, and that others are free to use them differently. Especially since we are (as I've said before) trying to impose western concepts on eastern terms.



Sir, I couldn't agree more with your post! 

I am a 5th Degree Black Belt w/ International Instructor License from both World Taekwon-Do Alliance and Korea Taekwondo Oh Do Kwan. Although I am the gym owner, I still consider my gym an extension of my instructors gym family (kwan) as well as our associations. Accordingly, I am the "Sabum" or Master of the School (Coach to most of my students) yet I as well as my students respect my instructor as Kwan-Jang. Furthermore, we all respect GM Kong Young Il as "Chong Kwan Jang" of the W.T.A and GM Han, Myung Hak as "Chong Kwan Jang of Daehan Taekwondo Oh Do Kwan.

In our instance, we are actually trying not avoid imposing western concepts into eastern traditions!


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## Archtkd (Feb 24, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, it would be "[r]eal simple" if the KKW were the be all and end all of TKD. It's not.
> 
> That is incorrect. The title is "sabum", not "sabumnim". The -nim is an honorific indicating respect, and is only applied by others, never by oneself.
> The translation of "sabum" is "teacher", and of "kwanjang" is "headmaster" or "leader of the school". "Kwan" means school.
> So what you've said above is "[incorrrect translation of teacher] 'respected school leader' is for the school leader only". Yeah. Sure. That would most often be the person who owns the school.



And it  gets more complicated if you really want to stick to the Kukkiwon brand. Strictly speaking, the Kukkiwon will only consider sabum (teacher of teachers) to be folks who, in addition to being 4th dan and up, have taken the leadership academy course and test (jidoja yunsuwon) at the Kukkiwon’s World Taekwondo Academy in Korea (and rarely offered by the Kukkiwon in some other nations, including the U.S). That course is held for foreigners -- thanks largely to the efforts of the late GM Al Cole -- once a year in Korea around July. Once you have successfully completed that course you also take the "Sabum Gye Gyuk Jung" exam (only if you hold 4th Dan Kukkiwon and above). If you pass that test, you are granted certification from Kukkiwon, which states that you are a qualified "Taekwondo Sabum", or Taekwondo master Instructor. There are 3 classes of Sabum -- 3rd, 2nd and 1st.

Of couse in the U.S and many other parts of the world you can do whatever you want. You don't have to have any rank in taekwondo or any martial art to open a dojang and call yourself a taekwondo kwanjag-nim, sabum-nim, or 15th degree Supreme God-Grandmaster. Also, you do not need to have any rank in taekwondo to be a taekwondo (WTF style sparring) coach.


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## skribs (Feb 25, 2015)

My limited understanding is that there is a minimum rank to be master, but just being that rank doesn't make you a master.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2015)

here in the tex-Kwon-Do  area, "Master" is 5th or 6th, and GM is 8th. Most fo the time


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## wildpsyd (Mar 8, 2015)

Is this only a TKD forum? I thought this was a forum for a practitioner of any system of martial art?  Anyway... 

In my Isshin-ryu school (Okinawan not Japanese), we do use honorifics as mentioned above but they aren't tightly assigned to a specific black belt rank but roughly correspond to them and seemingly modified by number of years practicing:

Renshi - expert instructor - 4th Dan and above

Shihan - chief instructor - 5th Dan and above

Kyōshi - master instructor - 6th Dan and above.

Hanshi - teacher of instructors - 8th Dan and above.


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## elder999 (Mar 8, 2015)

wildpsyd said:


> Is this only a TKD forum? I thought this was a forum for a practitioner of any system of martial art?  Anyway...
> 
> I.



This is the TKD sub-forum. Look at the top.....


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## toddfletcher (Mar 13, 2015)

In TKD (WTF type) 4th Dan is a Master. Grandmaster, in my experience, is a person who is of sufficient skill and experience to train masters. 

However, and as has been said, they are all just titles that only have meaning within an organization. Consider this... if a 2nd Dan where to take his training and alter it enough to be considered a new version of TKD outside any existing organization - open a school, teach and ultimate train students to mastery of his new style - he would likely consider him self the 'Grand master' of his style. That is essentially where all the first grandmasters came from.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 13, 2015)

toddfletcher said:


> However, and as has been said, they are all just titles that only have meaning within an organization. Consider this... if a 2nd Dan where to take his training and alter it enough to be considered a new version of TKD outside any existing organization - open a school, teach and ultimate train students to mastery of his new style - he would likely consider him self the 'Grand master' of his style. That is essentially where all the first grandmasters came from.


 Yeah, that's pretty much where the plethora of  "Grandmasters" in various modern arts came from. A bunch of guys realized that by heading out on their own and re-branding their practice as "JoeBob's White Mantis Kempo-jitsu", they could jump from 2nd Dan to 10th Dan and put "Grandmaster" on their business cards.


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, that's pretty much where the plethora of  "Grandmasters" in various modern arts came from. A bunch of guys realized that by heading out on their own and re-branding their practice as "JoeBob's White Mantis Kempo-jitsu", they could jump from 2nd Dan to 10th Dan and put "Grandmaster" on their business cards.




I'd prefer to keep a very low rank and then rebrand etc. I'd impress everyone with my skill and knowledge then people would say 'wow if you can do all that at such a low rank imagine how effective this style is, we have to do this!"


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## toddfletcher (Mar 13, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> JoeBob's White Mantis Kempo-jitsu



Hey thanks! you just came up with my new style name. I might add Do at the end to make it sound authentic. LOL. Reminds me of Napoleon Dynamite.

On the serious side of this point. I have had this discussion with fellow practitioners. I know several organization heads (grandmasters) that insist everyone train 'their way'. But I can't help think that they did not get to where they are by following the system they want everyone else to follow. Is it not the initiative to challenge convention while still holding to correct traditions that breed innovation?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 13, 2015)

toddfletcher said:


> In TKD (WTF type) 4th Dan is a Master.



You misspelled "KKW". Hope this helps.
The WTF has nothing whatsoever to do with rank or titles. You really ought to know this.


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## toddfletcher (Mar 13, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You misspelled "KKW". Hope this helps.
> The WTF has nothing whatsoever to do with rank or titles. You really ought to know this.



I realize you are trying to differentiate between the federation and kikkiwon, but the general point is still made as the two are related. If one is a member of the WTF, you are likely to have your rank and title established by Kikkiwon - as oppose to being apart of the ITF or whatever other flavor of organization.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 13, 2015)

toddfletcher said:


> I realize you are trying to differentiate between the federation and kikkiwon, but the general point is still made as the two are related. If one is a member of the WTF, you are likely to have your rank and title established by Kikkiwon - as oppose to being apart of the ITF or whatever other flavor of organization.



Except, of course, that the WTF doesn't have individual or schools as members. It's membership is wholly made up of National Governing Bodies that regulate Olympic competition.
You can be a member of the KKW and your rank will (not likely, WILL) be issued by the KKW. Same for the ITF, GTF, ATA or any other org that sets standards and issues rank. The WTF is not one of those.


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## TrueJim (Mar 14, 2015)

I think the problem is that your average layman might have heard of the WTF (because of the Olympics, and because Kukkiwon-style schools often have WTF banners on the wall) but your average laymen usually _hasn't_ heard of the Kukkiwon (often only people inside the art have heard of it). It's the classic problem that all writers (and dictionary publishers) have: do you call something by its technically correct name, or by the name that it's more likely to be recognized by? Does one want to be _right_, or does one want to be _understood_? Is the purpose of language to _educate_, or is it to _communicate_? As has been pointed out many times in these forums, there's really no such thing as "WTF-style" per se, and yet often that's the name it's most often recognized by. Personally, I tend to gauge my audience and use whichever term that I think will be most likely understood.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 14, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I think the problem is that your average layman might have heard of the WTF (because of the Olympics, and because Kukkiwon-style schools often have WTF banners on the wall) but your average laymen usually _hasn't_ heard of the Kukkiwon (often only people inside the art have heard of it). It's the classic problem that all writers (and dictionary publishers) have: do you call something by its technically correct name, or by the name that it's more likely to be recognized by? Does one want to be _right_, or does one want to be _understood_? Is the purpose of language to _educate_, or is it to _communicate_? As has been pointed out many times in these forums, there's really no such thing as "WTF-style" per se, and yet often that's the name it's most often recognized by. Personally, I tend to gauge my audience and use whichever term that I think will be most likely understood.



So if you have a broken leg, you're ok with me calling it a sprain?
For communication to be useful, it needs to be accurate and precise. Otherwise, it's just noise.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So if you have a broken leg, you're ok with me calling it a sprain?
> For communication to be useful, it needs to be accurate and precise. Otherwise, it's just noise.



Unless you are my "Treater" I really don't care what someone calls it.

It's no secret the KKW / WTF lobbied hard for the Olympics. Aside from people enrolling in schools or having family members enrolled, that is probably the largest exposure to TKD with Olympic TKD using a certain style of sparring  which is the one regulated by the WTF.

So, technical issues aside WTF is a style. It is the Olympic style of sparring.  So, while there is certainly an argument that there is "No such thing as WTF-Style"   We would first have to agree on how to define "Style".


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 15, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> Unless you are my "Treater" I really don't care what someone calls it.



If I weren't treating it, I wouldn't likely be talking about it.



Earl Weiss said:


> It's no secret the KKW / WTF lobbied hard for the Olympics. Aside from people enrolling in schools or having family members enrolled, that is probably the largest exposure to TKD with Olympic TKD using a certain style of sparring  which is the one regulated by the WTF.
> 
> So, technical issues aside WTF is a style. It is the Olympic style of sparring.  So, while there is certainly an argument that there is "No such thing as WTF-Style"   We would first have to agree on how to define "Style".



Well, no, it's not, since the topic was style of TKD, not style of sparring. Surely you're not one to suggest that TKD is nothing more than one limited subset of sparring rules?

But, if you like, how about this for a working definition of a style of martial arts:
An org that sets curriculum standards, awards rank, trains and credentials instructors, has a membership of schools and individuals involved in the art and in general promotes the art as a whole.

You might note that the WTF doesn't do any of these things.


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## TrueJim (Mar 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So if you have a broken leg, you're ok with me calling it a sprain?
> For communication to be useful, it needs to be accurate and precise. Otherwise, it's just noise.



Let me try a counter-example: Technically, there is no country called _America_. Its only correct name is the _United States of America_. There are two *continents* each called _America;_ one in the north and one in the south. To call the U.S.A. "America" is wildly inaccurate. For one thing, such usage confuses the name of _continents_ with the name of a _country_. One is a geographic body, the other a political entity. They're not even remotely similar! But people still call the U.S.A. "America" all the time, and it doesn't seem to create any problems. It is very imprecise - spectacularly so, if you think about it ("you're confusing a political entity with a big hunk of rock and dirt?") - but it's shorthand, and people understand what's being said.

Likewise, calling Kukkiwon-style "WTF-style" is wildly inaccurate: these are two completely distinct bodies (albeit incestual) with radically different charters. But for most people who are only "casually" familiar with taekwondo (if at all), the Kukkiwon is an organization they've never, _ever_ heard of...but the WTF is a "style" they might recognize from the Olympics. To me at least, calling the style by the name "WTF-style" is exactly the _same amount_ of inaccuracy as calling the U.S.A. "America".


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Let me try a counter-example: Technically, there is no country called _America_. Its only correct name is the _United States of America_. There are two *continents* each called _America;_ one in the north and one in the south. To call the U.S.A. "America" is wildly inaccurate....


|
And I don't ever want to become a "Master," took the words right out of my mouth...............


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 16, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Let me try a counter-example: Technically, there is no country called _America_. Its only correct name is the _United States of America_. There are two *continents* each called _America;_ one in the north and one in the south. To call the U.S.A. "America" is wildly inaccurate. For one thing, such usage confuses the name of _continents_ with the name of a _country_. One is a geographic body, the other a political entity. They're not even remotely similar! But people still call the U.S.A. "America" all the time, and it doesn't seem to create any problems. It is very imprecise - spectacularly so, if you think about it ("you're confusing a political entity with a big hunk of rock and dirt?") - but it's shorthand, and people understand what's being said.
> 
> Likewise, calling Kukkiwon-style "WTF-style" is wildly inaccurate: these are two completely distinct bodies (albeit incestual) with radically different charters. But for most people who are only "casually" familiar with taekwondo (if at all), the Kukkiwon is an organization they've never, _ever_ heard of...but the WTF is a "style" they might recognize from the Olympics. To me at least, calling the style by the name "WTF-style" is exactly the _same amount_ of inaccuracy as calling the U.S.A. "America".



I see your point, but I disagree. "America" is a shortened version of the full name of "United States of America". Likewise, some people will shorten Kukkiwon taekwondo to KKW or KukkiTKD or other variants.

Mixing Kukkiwon and WTF is more akin to referring to the USA as Pakistan.

And it really doesn't matter what "casual" people think. This is a martial arts forum, and one might reasonably assume that the people on it have a more than "casual" familiarity with the subject.

Similarly, I won't make fun of a layman who comes to the ER for "the flu" when their complaint is vomiting andn diarrhea. I don't expect the layman to necessarily know that the flu is a respiratory infection and that the "stomach flu" is not in any way, shape or form influenza.
But if a paramedic or nurse does it, it's an entirely different situation.


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> And I don't ever want to become a "Master," took the words right out of my mouth...............




always fancied being a Mistress but too old now......


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, no, it's not, since the topic was style of TKD, not style of sparring. Surely you're not one to suggest that TKD is nothing more than one limited subset of sparring rules?
> 
> .



Suggest? No. I will flat out say it.   For some whose only exposure or by far the largest exposure to TKD is / was Olympic Sparring, TKD was simply a set of sparring rules.   Case in point "Arlene Limas"   Originaly a Chinese stylist who sparred in open competition and  became a "TKD competitor" going on to win an Olympic Gold Medal.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> But, if you like, how about this for a working definition of a style of martial arts:
> An org that sets curriculum standards, awards rank, trains and credentials instructors, has a membership of schools and individuals involved in the art and in general promotes the art as a whole.
> 
> You might note that the WTF doesn't do any of these things.



Sounds like you are defining an MA ORGANIZATION, not an MA Style or system.

Question. If I see a school with the WTF Flag on the wall, assuming it's there legitimately, what is the relationship of the school to the WTF in order to have that flag?


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## TrueJim (Mar 16, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> For some whose only exposure or by far the largest exposure to TKD is / was Olympic Sparring, TKD was simply a set of sparring rules.



This is a great point and one I noodle over sometimes...what's the point of requiring a dan certificate for competition? If a person's legs are fast enough, limber enough, and strong enough to score points by bashing an opponent about the head and chest (while avoiding the same) -- should that person be allowed to compete? Sure they'd have to prove themselves first to compete at a higher level (just as with, for example, boxing) but it's not as if boxers have to show a _Boxxiwon_ certificate.

It's a slippery slope though, isn't it? If one didn't require a dan certificate, why call this taekwondo at all? It's just two people kicking each other _really really_ skillfully. But then that makes you stop and think...well, isn't that what Olympic-style taekwondo is anyway? For most people, I suppose that is taekwondo. For those of us who practice taekwondo, it's hopefully a lot more than that, but that's the part of the iceberg that's below sea-level.


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> It's just two people kicking each other _really really_ skillfully.



That would be shin kicking. Yes, there is such a thing and competitions.


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## TrueJim (Mar 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> That would be shin kicking.



I have never been to a shin-kicking competition! I'll put that on the bucket list. 

No, I mean, what would Olympic taekwondo look like if the rules were exactly the same, but dan certificates were not required?  I conjecture that it would look just like what it looks like now. It would be people with amazing cardio, lightning reflexes, and really strong, fast legs kicking each other in the chest and head. Maybe they wouldn't know any poomsae, but that doesn't really enter into it. So what's the point of the dan certificate? Scoring a point doesn't require that the kick be any particular _style_ of kick, does it, as long as the rules are being followed (i.e., the striking surface is the foot, not the shin or ankle, etc.)?

I mean, given that the rules are what they are, studying taekwondo probably helps quite a lot, since the taekwondo teaches you how to kick high and fast. But to Earl's point, if a person is kicking high and fast at that level of competency, for most spectators that alone would define it as taekwondo. If (say) a Wushu competitor could kick high and fast like that, scoring Olympic-style points...wouldn't most spectactors still call that taekwondo?


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I have never been to a shin-kicking competition! I'll put that on the bucket list.
> 
> No, I mean, what would Olympic taekwondo look like if the rules were exactly the same, but dan certificates were not required?  I conjecture that it would look just like what it looks like now. It would be people with amazing cardio, lightning reflexes, and really strong, fast legs kicking each other in the chest and head. Maybe they wouldn't know any poomsae, but that doesn't really enter into it. So what's the point of the dan certificate? Scoring a point doesn't require that the kick be any particular _style_ of kick, does it, as long as the rules are being followed (i.e., the striking surface is the foot, not the shin or ankle, etc.)?
> 
> I mean, given that the rules are what they are, studying taekwondo probably helps quite a lot, since the taekwondo teaches you how to kick high and fast. But to Earl's point, if a person is kicking high and fast at that level of competency, for most spectators that alone would define it as taekwondo. If (say) a Wushu competitor could kick high and fast like that, scoring Olympic-style points...wouldn't most spectactors still call that taekwondo?



I've noticed recently that people now say they 'do' martial arts or they are a black belt 'in martial arts' rather than say what they do. I think the general public, here at least, think there's Judo ( the staple of many a spy/action type film here for donkey's years) and there's the standing up one where they wear a 'uniform' plus there's kickboxing/Thai boxing. I don't know that no martial artists differentiate between karate styles and TKD to be honest, they are far too similar for a layperson to tell the difference. TKD here is reasonably well known because of the Olympics, the London ones specifically plus the one before where the British girl was 'robbed' of her medal, that made a big splash and not in a good way.
From what I've seen of Olympic organisations they are very jealous of the control they can have over their sport so I imagine you will always have to be certified in TKD to compete in the Olympics, having karate and other people in would be a disaster in their eyes. It's to do with money as much as anything, the Sports Councils here give money to Olympic sports organisations according to their success, no organisation would want that money to go elsewhere. I don't know how it works in other countries though.

Shin kicking is actually great fun, it's one of England's more interesting rural pursuits. Predates the modern Olympics too.

Shin-kicking Robert Dover s Cotswold Olimpicks


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## toddfletcher (Mar 16, 2015)

Just checking back. My referring to WTF-style sparked a larger discussion than I would have expected. ;-) In the strict sense Dirty Dog is right. I probably should have reference Kukkiwon instead of the World TKD Federation. My 4th Dan is from OhDoKwan since my master was the 4th master over the civilian annex of OhDoKwan in Seoul many years ago. So while an aspect of my training has been in Olympic style sparring along the lines of what the WTF oversees, my rank is not given by Kukkiwon. I guess that is the source of my statement. I don't consider Kukkiwon as the de facto standard over my TaeKwonDo training. OhDoKwan can be related both to ITF and WTF as it preceded them.

But I can see why my statement can be considered as incorrect. Hopefully the spirit of the statement that 4th Dan is considered Master was understood despite the way I made the point. ;-)

On an similar note, I still address Grandmaster Kim as 'Master' as he is my master. He has never liked titles and we often simply refer to each other as Mr.. the titles are only relevant when serving in an official capacity in our schools.


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## TrueJim (Mar 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know that no martial artists differentiate between karate styles and TKD to be honest, they are far too similar for a layperson to tell the difference.



I think that's often true in the U.S. as well. Here in the U.S., the *Los Angeles*, the *San Francisco/San Jose*, the *Denver*, and the *Washington DC/Northern Virginia* areas tend to have pretty high population densities of Koreans per capita. I think when you get into those areas, it's not uncommon for even laymen to know that there _is_ a difference (but they usually don't know quite what it is) just because there are so many taekwondo schools in all these neighborhoods. Within 3 miles of my house I'm fortunate enough to have three good Kukkiwon-style schools and 1 ITF-style school. Extend that out to 5 or 10 miles and you're talking literally dozens upon dozens of taekwondo schools in the area. (Though as has been pointed out in other posts, their business strategy is mostly predicated on after-school programs.)

List of U.S. cities with significant Korean-American populations - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia







My 7 year old son and I just went out for lunch last Friday at a Korean barbeque place called _Honey Pig_ in Chantilly, Virgina (about a 20 minute drive from us). You can't really see it that well in this Google Street View ( Google Maps ) but this particular shopping center (where Honey Pig is located) is one of several in that Chantilly area where the shops are predominantly Korean to a remarkable extent. Everywhere you look there's Korean restaurants, Korean groceries, Korean karaoke places, Korean banks, and Korean real estate agents. If a person is into taekwondo and wants to soak up a little Korean culture, around here is a great place to be.


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## WaterGal (Mar 16, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sounds like you are defining an MA ORGANIZATION, not an MA Style or system.
> 
> Question. If I see a school with the WTF Flag on the wall, assuming it's there legitimately, what is the relationship of the school to the WTF in order to have that flag?



Anybody can buy a WTF flag.  But yeah, having one does generally indicate that you do a certain style of Taekwondo.  One which, while it is actually overseen by Kukkiwon, is widely and generally referred to as "WTF Taekwondo".


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 17, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I have never been to a shin-kicking competition! I'll put that on the bucket list.
> 
> No, I mean, what would Olympic taekwondo look like if the rules were exactly the same, but dan certificates were not required?  I conjecture that it would look just like what it looks like now.



Dan certs. are required?
What dan(s).?  
Are the requirements for obtaining the cert thru various instructors always pretty much the same?
If the Olympics only has sparring why are there any other requirements?
If you are a top notch fighter may some of the requirements be "relaxed"?


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## TrueJim (Mar 17, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> Dan certs. are required?



That's my understanding, yes. I could be mistaken.

From the WTF website and its tournament rules, http://ftp.worldtaekwondofederation..._Rules_Amendments_E-Voting_2014_copy_copy.pdf

Article 4, Paragraph 1, page 8: 

1 Qualification of Contestant 
1.1 Holder of the nationality of the participating team 
1.2 One recommended by the WTF National Taekwondo Association 
1.3 *Holder of Taekwondo Dan/Poom certificate issued by the Kukkiwon or WTF *
1.4 Holder of the WTF Global Athlete License (GAL) 
1.5 Contestants at the age of at least 17 years old in the year the pertinent tournament is held (15-17 years old for 
Junior Taekwondo Championships and 12-14 years old for Cadet Championships). Ages for Youth Olympic 
Games might be different depending on the decision of the IOC. 

These qualifications apply to these types of tournaments:

1 The Competition Rules shall apply to all the competitions to be promoted and/or organized by the WTF, each 
Continental Union and member National Association. However, any member National Association wishing to modify 
some or any part of the Competition Rules must first gain the prior approval of the WTF. In the case that a Continental 
Union and/or a Member National Association violates WTF Competition Rules without prior approval of the WTF, the 
WTF may exercise its discretion to disapprove or revoke its approval of the concerned international tournament. In 
addition, the WTF may take further disciplinary actions to the pertinent Continental Union or Member National 
Association. 
2 All competitions promoted, organized, or sanctioned by the WTF shall observe the WTF Statutes, the Bylaws of 
Dispute Resolution and Disciplinary Action, and all other pertinent rules and regulations. 
3 All competitions promoted, organized, or sanctioned by the WTF shall abide by the WTF Medical Code and the WTF 
Anti-Doping Rules.


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## TrueJim (Mar 17, 2015)

*P.S. * I suppose in _theory_ a WTF National Governing Body (such as USA Taekwondo) and the associated national Olympic Committee could send somebody to the Olympics without a dan certificate. After all, the dan certificate is a requirement for WTF tournaments, not a requirement for the Olympics. But that would mean that a WTF NGB would be sending somebody to the Olympics who'd never competed in a WTF tournament...it's hard to see how that could ever come to pass. 

Also, with the recent agreement between the WTF and one of the ITFs, allowing athletes to compete in each other's tournaments, I'll be interested to see if and how the WTF tournament rulebook gets updated. Presumably they'll change item 1.3 to read something like "Holder of a Taekwondo Dan/Poom certificate issued by the Kukkiwon, the WTF, or the ITF." But even then, it's hard to imagine a WTF NGB such as USA Taekwondo sending an ITF athlete to the Olympics if the ITF athlete had never competed in any WTF tournaments. So, one way or another a person would have to compete in some WTF tournaments it seems to me, which presumably means they have to be a dan holder.

As I mentioned previously though, it would be interesting to see how the sport would change if the dan requirement were dropped. Like imagine if any athlete were allowed to compete in WTF tournaments as long as they were following WTF tournament rules: kick high and fast, jumping and spinning a plus. Would we still call that taekwondo?


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 18, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> That's my understanding, yes. I could be mistaken.
> 
> From the WTF website and its tournament rules, http://ftp.worldtaekwondofederation..._Rules_Amendments_E-Voting_2014_copy_copy.pdf
> 
> ...



And the elephant in the room:
The WTF doesn't issue Dan certs.??????


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 18, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> ....
> As I mentioned previously though, it would be interesting to see how the sport would change if the dan requirement were dropped. Like imagine if any athlete were allowed to compete in WTF tournaments as long as they were following WTF tournament rules: kick high and fast, jumping and spinning a plus. Would we still call that taekwondo?


...
No speculation needed.   Except for training to compete under certain sparring rules, Arlene Limas was not a TKD stylist when she competed.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 18, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> And the elephant in the room:
> The WTF doesn't issue Dan certs.??????



No, they don't. There was a brief period in the stone ages when they did so, but since their criteria for awarding one boiled down to "You already have a KKW Dan rank", it was pointless. So that elephant had its ivory harvested long long ago.

Personally, I do think the KKW-Dan requirement is foolish. Tournaments should be open to anyone who wants to enter, so long as they follow the ruleset in place for the event.


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## TrueJim (Mar 18, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> ...
> No speculation needed.   Except for training to compete under certain sparring rules, Arlene Limas was not a TKD stylist when she competed.



You mentioned that previously; I had not heard of Limas before. Interestingly, her school is not _that_ far from me -- about an hour's drive. ( Power Kix Karate Stafford VA - Power Kix Karate Aquia VAPower Kix Martial Arts Stadfford VA ) ...but then, I practically pass Jhoon Rhee's house in McLean on the way to the local shopping mall; you can't swing a cat in the DC suburbs without hitting a taekwondo great.   One of our local Kukkiwon 9th dans is hosting a tournament this Saturday ( Grandmaster H.K.Lee Tae Kwon Do )  This place swims in taekwondo.

I wonder how Limas qualified for competition?  I guess the rules were different back then?


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 18, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Y
> 
> I wonder how Limas qualified for competition?  I guess the rules were different back then?



Many moons ago I was slightly involved in the open circuit in Chicago. She was a great competitor and  trained under Olympic rules to compete in the Olympics when TKD became what was then a demo sport.   It is my uinderstanding she found a Korean KKW teacher to swing the bat for her and get her the neccessary credentials to compete.   there was also a story circulating. (It was long ago and I do not know if it was true or not) That certain factions tried to keep her form competing and she had to go to court  to be allowed to compete. 

my only other brief encounters with here was when she appeared at a seminar given at the Degerberg Academy given by Joe Lewis, Jeff Smith , and Bill Wallace.   Seh did not do anything exept observe. I beleive I also attended a brief seminar by her whcih was part of a mult day Chuck Norris KDOAA, but again it as along time ago and I may ne mistaken. i would have to check my souvenitr stash to see if she was listed.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 18, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, they don't. There was a brief period in the stone ages when they did so, but since their criteria for awarding one boiled down to "You already have a KKW Dan rank", it was pointless. So that elephant had its ivory harvested long long ago.
> 
> .



that was my understanding as well. 

Curious then that it's still in the materials listing qualifications.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 18, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> You mentioned that previously; I had not heard of Limas before. Interestingly, her school is not _that_ far from me -- about an hour's drive. ( Power Kix Karate Stafford VA - Power Kix Karate Aquia VAPower Kix Martial Arts Stadfford VA ) ...but then, I practically pass Jhoon Rhee's house in McLean on the way to the local shopping mall; you can't swing a cat in the DC suburbs without hitting a taekwondo great.   One of our local Kukkiwon 9th dans is hosting a tournament this Saturday ( Grandmaster H.K.Lee Tae Kwon Do )  This place swims in taekwondo.
> 
> I wonder how Limas qualified for competition?  I guess the rules were different back then?



I don't know details of this specific case, but the KKW has long (always?) given out Dan ranks to people from other systems who want to compete in Olympic events. 
This is one reason why I think the rule should be eliminated. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 18, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> that was my understanding as well.
> 
> Curious then that it's still in the materials listing qualifications.



More than a little silly, and does nothing but add to the KKW vs WTF confusion. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## IcemanSK (Mar 18, 2015)

[QUOTE="

I wonder how Limas qualified for competition?  I guess the rules were different back then?[/QUOTE]

If I remember correctly she filed a lawsuit (I believe either against the USTU (precursor to USAT) or maybe the WTF in order to participate. She now has long since gotten KKW rank and has gone to law school. She'd be the one I'd talk to if I had an issue with the USAT or WTF and needed a lawyer.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 18, 2015)

http://www.lib.utulsa.edu/yrbks/1990-1999/1993/20.pdf


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