# The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement



## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2021)

This thread is to discuss the ways to power one's martial arts movement.  I was originally going to focus only on strikes, but decided to focus on movement instead.  This was originally a side discussion in another group so I'll start there.  Feel free to discus any mechanics of any system.  

To start off here are the power generators
1. Linear Movement
2. Circular Movement
3. Weight Movement (dropping into a strike)
4. Gravity Movement
5. Foot Pivot
6. Foot /leg push
7. Hip twist vs Hip Rotation
8. Waist Twist vs Waist Rotation
9. Torso Twist vs Waist 
10, Shoulder Twist vs Shoulder Rotation
11. Arm and leg power generation.
12. Body Rotation 
13. Wrist Motion

Before this thread we were only talking about how to power a punch using the Torso, Waist, Shoulder.  We were looking at a boxing video on how to generate power.  Keep in mind that every system is different and even with in the same system a person may engage all power generators or engage only a few depending on the technique and distance. There is not only one way but many ways.  Share your knowledge.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2021)

What he says in video is true and taught in Jow Ga as well.  The major difference for me is how I teach it.  I tend to use the term Waist and not Torso.  Torso to me is too general.  Upper torso. = anything above stomach. Lower torso = below chest and above the hips.  I like to use the term "waist" because most people understand that location.  If I ask someone to wrap a belt around their waist, that person will place the belt in the area that I need the student to focus on.

I train in a circular system and the concept of using the waist (torso) to generate power is key.  Jow Ga Kung Fu has these long circular punches that take some effort to get going.  Here you can see a demonstration of one of these punches and how the power is generated.  Typically the power starts at the ground and picks up other areas of generation. Ideally, a punch should use a "Power Multiplier" concept. The more you can add the better.  How many you add it up to you and the position you are in when throwing the strike.





From what I've seen.  Learning to power a punch is one of the most difficult lessons to learn. The difficulty often revolves in the connection of the power, most people bleed power and as a result their strike has breaks in power connections.  In general theory, the more power connections you can make the more powerful your strike will be.  The reality is that the number of possible power connections available will vary some techniques have a lot and some have only a couple.  If you try to add more than what exists then you'll not only break the technique, but you will also break the power.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What he says in video is true and taught in Jow Ga as well.  The major difference for me is how I teach it.  I tend to use the term Waist and not Torso.  Torso to me is too general.  Upper torso. = anything above stomach. Lower torso = below chest and above the hips.  I like to use the term "waist" because most people understand that location.  If I ask someone to wrap a belt around their waist, that person will place the belt in the area that I need the student to focus on.
> 
> I train in a circular system and the concept of using the waist (torso) to generate power is key.  Jow Ga Kung Fu has these long circular punches that take some effort to get going.  Here you can see a demonstration of one of these punches and how the power is generated.  Typically the power starts at the ground and picks up other areas of generation. Ideally, a punch should use a "Power Multiplier" concept. The more you can add the better.  How many you add it up to you and the position you are in when throwing the strike.
> 
> ...


i will give one example of what I’m doing in one particular stance, with one particular punch, in detail. Please bear with my description/definition/terms as these vary person to person and place to place. Starting in parallel footed shoulder width and a half horse stance. I feel the pinkie toe line as the balance line. The big toe line as the power line. Feel the toes long and the heel long. Feel the center of the bottom of the foot like a big suction cup. Feel the bottom of the bones inside the foot. Take all the tension out of the ankle. Feel the tibia or shin bone like a stick in a hole. Keep the knee above the third toe. Feel the peroneus longus muscle on the outside or lateral aspect of the the calf or foreleg. The knee should not be loaded, instead the thigh muscles bear the weight. The femurs roll outward. The feet are neither pronated nor supinated. The pubic bone comes forward. The femoral heads go back. This forms a triangle. The inside of the space in the pelvis goes down but is opposed by lifting the inside of the body(Kegel).    The back is spread. The tips of the scapula are flattened against the back of the ribs(spreading the lats). The back wraps around the front without collapsing the structure. The armpit is open. The shoulder girdle floats on top of the torso. The sternum presses to the spine and the inside of the abdomen is lifted like a tube. The breath goes up and down in this tube like a respirator. The motion of the torso(waist) turning creates the breath. The throat holds up the head. the top of the head feels suspended by a wire. Tongue on the roof of mouth. I pull with the bottom of the foot, squeeze the space between the legs, turn the waist, let the back come forward, let the upper arm come forward off the body, rotate the radius bone keeping the elbow pointed down on this straight flat punch. Hope that gives a picture but that isnt really complete and remember this is a description of a training exercise.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ideally, a punch should use a "Power Multiplier" concept. The more you can add the better.


You listed a bunch of specific power generators, some of which I couldn't quite understand , but no matter. I might have spent time thinking about individual power sources in the past, but at this point, it's all muscle memory or what you could call holistic natural movement. The whole body mass delivers in one way or another. Explaining this is difficult as you mentioned.

I liked that you did not deal with individual strikes, but with movement as a whole._ It's all about delivering what you got, all at the same time at impact._ You don't even need to strike to demo this - the step alone can deliver great power, whether it's a full step, a slide step or other variant. It just has to be explosive. I believed it all starts in the core.

You did not mention speed as a multiplier, but that's a part of explosiveness.  I think mental attitude is a part of it, too.  Fierce, focused, unleashed commitment.

The number of power sources and the mechanics required to utilized them do indeed make the teaching of power complicated.  A few (5-12?) years of practice is needed to internalize it so it all meshes together.  This is what I meant by "holistic."  Once you have "it" you have a big part of being an "expert martial artist."


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What he says in video is true and taught in Jow Ga as well.  The major difference for me is how I teach it.  I tend to use the term Waist and not Torso.  Torso to me is too general.  Upper torso. = anything above stomach. Lower torso = below chest and above the hips.  I like to use the term "waist" because most people understand that location.  If I ask someone to wrap a belt around their waist, that person will place the belt in the area that I need the student to focus on.
> 
> I train in a circular system and the concept of using the waist (torso) to generate power is key.  Jow Ga Kung Fu has these long circular punches that take some effort to get going.  Here you can see a demonstration of one of these punches and how the power is generated.  Typically the power starts at the ground and picks up other areas of generation. Ideally, a punch should use a "Power Multiplier" concept. The more you can add the better.  How many you add it up to you and the position you are in when throwing the strike.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with this.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 26, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> You listed a bunch of specific power generators, some of which I couldn't quite understand , but no matter. I might have spent time thinking about individual power sources in the past, but at this point, it's all muscle memory or what you could call holistic natural movement. The whole body mass delivers in one way or another. Explaining this is difficult as you mentioned.
> 
> I liked that you did not deal with individual strikes, but with movement as a whole._ It's all about delivering what you got, all at the same time at impact._ You don't even need to strike to demo this - the step alone can deliver great power, whether it's a full step, a slide step or other variant. It just has to be explosive. I believed it all starts in the core.
> 
> ...


Sure I agree with all this. It’s a difficult topic to discuss because of terms and semantics. We are all accomplished at our way of doing this, so I want to hear YOUR way. This isn’t about who thinks they are right, but hearing multiple points of view. More than likely everyone has something valuable to add. This is also not about a specific strike but more about how YOU generate power for a strike. More specifically what you are doing with your feet, legs, waist, hips, core.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 26, 2021)

I only talk about punching, it is the whole body. I learned boxing hands in my TKD class those days. When we punch the right cross, we lift the right heel while turning with the feet, the waist turn also. We judge the movement by looking at the belt that goes flip-flop when we do jab and reverse punch to show the feet-hip-waist motion. The should also push forward with the punch. The arm and hand is kept relaxed until the point of contact before the fist tighten up. Then pull back after the focus point.

The best way to describe this is the Okinawa Karate "Chinkuchi" where the motion of the whole body synchronize to the focusing point and all the forces add up together at the target point.





I looked at quite a few different punches from different style, looks to be the same idea but look different. The idea is very simple, there's no secret in this. Practicing is a different story, took me months of constant practice those days to get that. I since lost it even I never stop punching heavy bags. Just because I only went through the motion without concentrating, I lost it.

It was until I join here, GowGaWolf showed my a video he punch in very slow motion and relax. That reminded me to start from the beginning and do it show and light. Till now, I still start the exercise doing a set of light slow set. It's been over 2 months, sometimes I can feel it, mostly still not quite there.

I don't think there are secret in this, we learned on the first day of class. Doing it takes a long time. I think punching is much harder than people think to do it good.

I am sure swinging the golf club or baseball bat have the similar idea also.


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## caped crusader (Nov 26, 2021)

not a big fan of Ali but his foot work was good.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 26, 2021)

I agree with you. In addition to power generation, consider speed, timing, distance, and focus; all play into power that is delivered.

Stance, especially as it pertains to grounding matters, as well as that old bugaboo, balance (yours and the opponent's).  Targeting also plays into how delivered power is perceived.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> You did not mention speed as a multiplier, but that's a part of explosiveness. I think mental attitude is a part of it, too. Fierce, focused, unleashed commitment.


That didn't even come to mind.  Speed is tricky because you can have a lot of speed and no power and you can have a lot of power and no speed and then there's the balance of the two.

When people are ask to hit their hardest,  It is usually a punch with a slower wind up.  When people are asked to hit their fastest they don't wind up and almost "cheat the punch".

Something for me to think about.  When I do my forms, I sometimes train only power (no consideration to speed.)  Only speed (no consideration for power )  Then the balance of the the two (speed with power, power with speed)


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> i will give one example of what I’m doing in one particular stance, with one particular punch, in detail. Please bear with my description/definition/terms as these vary person to person and place to place. Starting in parallel footed shoulder width and a half horse stance. I feel the pinkie toe line as the balance line. The big toe line as the power line. Feel the toes long and the heel long. Feel the center of the bottom of the foot like a big suction cup. Feel the bottom of the bones inside the foot. Take all the tension out of the ankle. Feel the tibia or shin bone like a stick in a hole. Keep the knee above the third toe. Feel the peroneus longus muscle on the outside or lateral aspect of the the calf or foreleg. The knee should not be loaded, instead the thigh muscles bear the weight. The femurs roll outward. The feet are neither pronated nor supinated. The pubic bone comes forward. The femoral heads go back. This forms a triangle. The inside of the space in the pelvis goes down but is opposed by lifting the inside of the body(Kegel).    The back is spread. The tips of the scapula are flattened against the back of the ribs(spreading the lats). The back wraps around the front without collapsing the structure. The armpit is open. The shoulder girdle floats on top of the torso. The sternum presses to the spine and the inside of the abdomen is lifted like a tube. The breath goes up and down in this tube like a respirator. The motion of the torso(waist) turning creates the breath. The throat holds up the head. the top of the head feels suspended by a wire. Tongue on the roof of mouth. I pull with the bottom of the foot, squeeze the space between the legs, turn the waist, let the back come forward, let the upper arm come forward off the body, rotate the radius bone keeping the elbow pointed down on this straight flat punch. Hope that gives a picture but that isnt really complete and remember this is a description of a training exercise.


Do you train with shoes on or shoes off?  Some of this sounds familiar but some of it sound strange to me. I don't if it's because I train with shoes on.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2021)

I was going to keep this secret to myself but I gave it some thought and remind myself that just because I say it doesn't mean someone is going to adopt it or believe it.  I guess one could be referred to as "experiencing the concept"  Keep in mind that Secret too me is just information that clarifies training in a way that makes it easier to improve one's ability and understanding.  Some of you already know this through your own training, but maybe not through this exercise.  This is what I would use with someone who has difficulty in understanding the difference.  They would still have to do the work to apply it concept to technique.  But at least they will have a better idea of what it means when people speak of connection the different parts of power generation.

This is something that I use to help my son understand what he should be feeling.

*How to generate power using the waist*

This isn't a lesson but an exercise that can help someone understand the difference between just twisting the waist and engaging the waist and supporting structures

*Step 1:* Relax and gently twist waist. The twists looks like this. Don't double pump the twist. Just go left to right very gentle, no need to get crazy with it. If start to feel twist in your knees then decrease how for you twist. By the way I personally wouldn't follow this guy. I just knew he would have the relaxed twisting movement.





*Step 2*:  Do the same twist but time, get into a horse stance, nothing super low. This time tighten your stomach as you twist and slowing increase how fast your twist. The faster you go, the more you can feel how your legs and your feet engage the ground to power the twist.  Engaging the stomach muscles protects the spine.   Taking the horse stance helps to prevent twisting on your knees. 

One way should feel more powerful.  Not because you are going fast, but because more is engaged to produce the trip.  The only reason I didn't say to do Step 1 fast is because of my own back injuries and the understanding that twisting on the spine.  There is real risk of injury.  Step 2: I can do fast without worries because I know that my core and my legs are going to be the things that supports the twisting movement.  I'm not overloading one area of my body by trying to isolate my movement.

I think once people can feel the difference, they should be able to recognize when it in training when the waist is engaged.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Do you train with shoes on or shoes off?  Some of this sounds familiar but some of it sound strange to me. I don't if it's because I train with shoes on.


Cotton soled slippers on a waxed and polished slippery concrete floor.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was going to keep this secret to myself but I gave it some thought and remind myself that just because I say it doesn't mean someone is going to adopt it or believe it.  I guess one could be referred to as "experiencing the concept"  Keep in mind that Secret too me is just information that clarifies training in a way that makes it easier to improve one's ability and understanding.  Some of you already know this through your own training, but maybe not through this exercise.  This is what I would use with someone who has difficulty in understanding the difference.  They would still have to do the work to apply it concept to technique.  But at least they will have a better idea of what it means when people speak of connection the different parts of power generation.
> 
> This is something that I use to help my son understand what he should be feeling.
> 
> ...


Yes ! This is what I’m talking about.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 27, 2021)

Karate calls this koshi, generating power from the hip. It can be overdone.









						Koshi O Hineru
					

The above phrase, “Koshi o hineru“, translates as “Twisting (of the) hips“. This is something very important in both Karate and Kobudo (and nearly every other Martial Art out there). It is especially important in Kobudo, since you need to swing some extra weight. But… we have a problem. There...




					www.karatebyjesse.com


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## seasoned (Nov 27, 2021)

Understand this and you can harness and transfer power.......For those of you that know of Okinawan GoJu, or it is your art of choice, this comes directly out of kata.... Sanchin.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> When people are ask to hit their hardest, It is usually a punch with a slower wind up. When people are asked to hit their fastest they don't wind up and almost "cheat the punch".


Sometimes it appears that speed and power are antagonistic - either/or - try to do one, and the other suffers.  It is tricky to get both together.  Though there are times when one or the other can be stressed, depending on the tactical opportunities.  While I also practice each quality separately (not so much anymore,) it's important to realize they are _symbiotic, working together, adding each one's quality to the other_. No reason not to have both at the same time.


JowGaWolf said:


> balance of the the two (speed with power, power with speed)


The way I see it (and maybe I've been exploring the art too long) it's not a matter of balance.  "Balance" is a good word to use in describing things, sometimes the only word, but I think it falls short of the theoretical ideal as the word infers two things:  Black on one side, white on the other side of the scale so the arrow in the middle is pointing straight up.  Instead, I visualize both intertwined together, resting on top of the arrow blended in a yin/yang symbol as one entity.  Nowadays, I tend not to look at karate's components as separate pieces or notes, but as a chord.  I hate the word "holistic," but it's the only one I know to easily convey my mental approach to the art.  

When I was 8 or 9, on the way home from school, us kids would stop off at a mom and pop convenience store and order our favorite drink (that I think we invented) called a "suicide."  It was every soda flavor they had in a single cup.  You couldn't tell one from the other, but it tasted good (as I remember it.)

WTF, this is just conceptual philosophical BS.  True, if it remains simply conceptual.  At some point it has to be physically executed.  But, concept lays the foundation for execution.  To bridge the two takes a lot of practice, looking outside the box, and an open mind.  Oh, and don't be in a hurry - it took me 50 years (or maybe I'm just getting senile and only think I've discovered something useful.)


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## Alan0354 (Nov 27, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Karate calls this koshi, generating power from the hip. It can be overdone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this is similar to Chinkuchi of Okinawa Karate I talked about. But it's about the whole body, not just the waist. I don't know how you can separate the movement into waist, feet, legs, shoulder etc. I just don't think you can practice one at a time individually.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think this is similar to Chinkuchi of Okinawa Karate I talked about. But it's about the whole body, not just the waist. I don't know how you can separate the movement into waist, feet, legs, shoulder etc. I just don't think you can practice one at a time individually.


In general, for the basic punch you will have access to all points of power generation.  But when fighting, body position and technique will sometimes take away access to some points of power generation. For example, someone who is doing a single leg take down or double leg take down on you will take away your lower power generation.  This means that only the top power generation is available.

Shuffle forward Jab doesn't use all points of power generation.  It's a good example of Full Body punch with only 3 points of power generation.  Each of these can be trained separately.
1. Push from the leg
2. Foward movement
3. Arm





Some punches use sinking motion or collapsing motion which is a lot different than the the twisting and pushing motions to power punches. other punches use rising motion to power.


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## paitingman (Nov 27, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Cotton soled slippers on a waxed and polished slippery concrete floor.


This reminded me of something an old teacher pointed out and it's why keeping the fashion and technology of the times in perspective is valuable to me.

We often take our modern world of "grip" for granted.

People of the past often learned to fight and wrestle in footwear and on surfaces that would have you slipping around if 
you weren't careful.
A lot of fighting traditions come from a time when grippy concrete surfaces and rubber soles were just unfathomable.
Best people had was leather soled shoes or sandals against surfaces like stone or wood that were just getting smoother with age. There was give inside your socks, shoes/boots/sandals, and then between your soles and the ground.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 27, 2021)

paitingman said:


> This reminded me of something an old teacher pointed out and it's why keeping the fashion and technology of the times in perspective is valuable to me.
> 
> We often take our modern world of "grip" for granted.
> 
> ...


Interesting point few of us have considered, I'm sure.  So, when we look at traditional stances, maybe we can understand them better by taking this into account.  Even with today's pavement, flooring, shoes, etc., there are times we will not have ideal footing, so the value of these stances may come into play.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think this is similar to Chinkuchi of Okinawa Karate I talked about. But it's about the whole body, not just the waist. I don't know how you can separate the movement into waist, feet, legs, shoulder etc. I just don't think you can practice one at a time individually.


You can. Then you add them together slowly. At first it’s like trying to carry water in a basket. Eventually, you have a very large tank that can carry each individual torque and feeling forward in a movement. It takes a long time, but it is achievable.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2021)

paitingman said:


> This reminded me of something an old teacher pointed out and it's why keeping the fashion and technology of the times in perspective is valuable to me.
> 
> We often take our modern world of "grip" for granted.
> 
> ...


It’s one of the reasons we train this way. With slippery shoes, on the worst, slipperiest possible conditions. That way, if you have to use it, out in the real world, it’s easy.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Interesting point few of us have considered, I'm sure.  So, when we look at traditional stances, maybe we can understand them better by taking this into account.  Even with today's pavement, flooring, shoes, etc., there are times we will not have ideal footing, so the value of these stances may come into play.


Not so much the stance as the floor and and slippery shoe combined with the stance.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think this is similar to Chinkuchi of Okinawa Karate I talked about. But it's about the whole body, not just the waist. I don't know how you can separate the movement into waist, feet, legs, shoulder etc. I just don't think you can practice one at a time individually.


I always thought of chinkuchi as having to do with the alignment of the body at the moment of impact. Koshi helps get you there. And yes, it is about the whole body. I believe hips are often seen as the focal point because Americans tend to be very rigid in the hips. It's also the rotating bit most often seen or noticed when used.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2021)

This Sifu James Wing Woo in his kwoon circa 2003. Notice the slippery floor.


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## geezer (Nov 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This thread is to discuss the ways to power one's martial arts movement.  I was originally going to focus only on strikes, but decided to focus on movement instead.  This was originally a side discussion in another group so I'll start there.  Feel free to discus any mechanics of any system.
> 
> To start off here are the power generators
> 1. Linear Movement
> ...


All these methods of power generation can be simplified for the purposes of discussion into about four main groups: Drop, rise, rotate, and press forward. Some methods combine two or more of these principles: drop and press forward, drop or rise and simultaneously rotate (creating a spiral) etc. The details and variations are nearly infinite. What matters is "Can you make it work?"

One big area that is missing from this list is the idea of *borrowing your opponent's force.* If you can borrow your opponent's energy, you can increase the force of your strikes regardless of which technique or "engine" you use.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 27, 2021)

Example of training power generation separately in Jow Ga Kung Fu.





1. Arm power - Punching in horse @ 0:021
2. Arm power - Double punch in horse @0:24

I drill these things separately so I can generate power in my punch when I'm not in a position to connect any other points of power.  In karate and some other systems, the practitioner will drive power from the hip.  In Jow Ga (as far as I know of) we don't do that for this drill.  It seems strange not to use the hip or waist. But throw a double punch, while in horse.  Does it feel strong or does it feel week?  Twisting the hip for power doesn't work for double punches. That same way to generate power with the double punch is also used in a staff application. Actually it would probably work well with a cane.  With the double punch there is no way to twist the hip to add the power.  So we must learn other ways to develop power.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> One big area that is missing from this list is the idea of *borrowing your opponent's force.* If you can borrow your opponent's energy, you can increase the force of your strikes regardless of which technique or "engine" you use.


This is a really difficult concept for many people to understand.  The only reason I understand it is because I had it applied to me.  Now when a kung fu teacher says "punch me like you are trying to hit me." I think twice about it.  Do I really want have that energy returned to  me lol. 

No thanks.. keep the change lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> *borrowing your opponent's force.*


This is a good strategy.

For example,

- You throw a back fist, your opponent blocks it, You borrow his blocking force, change your back fist into a hook punch.
- You use right hand to grab on your opponent's wrist, use your left hand to grab on his elbow. You pull your opponent's arm. When he resists, you borrow that resistance force, release your right wrist grabbing hand, and punch on his face.
- You twist your opponent clockwise. When he resists, you borrow his resistance force, change your clockwise twisting into counter-clockwise twisting.
- ...


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 27, 2021)

Good video.  It talks about some of the things mentioned here.  @Alan0354 He says he has secrets too lol.  His words not mine lol.






This is a example of training power generation separately. Or maybe more accurately strength building for rotational power?





If he did a bow stance instead of lunge on the first exercises then he would get more rotation.  A good bow stance takes away that risk with the knee that he's so concerned with.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> All these methods of power generation can be simplified for the purposes of discussion into about four main groups: Drop, rise, rotate, and press forward. Some methods combine two or more of these principles: drop and press forward, drop or rise and simultaneously rotate (creating a spiral) etc. The details and variations are nearly infinite. What matters is "Can you make it work?"
> 
> One big area that is missing from this list is the idea of *borrowing your opponent's force.* If you can borrow your opponent's energy, you can increase the force of your strikes regardless of which technique or "engine" you use.


Excellent point! We also use this idea, when making any point of contact with an opponent, borrowing their weight and connecting to them.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is a really difficult concept for many people to understand.  The only reason I understand it is because I had it applied to me.  Now when a kung fu teacher says "punch me like you are trying to hit me." I think twice about it.  Do I really want have that energy returned to  me lol.
> 
> No thanks.. keep the change lol


lol!


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 28, 2021)

geezer said:


> All these methods of power generation can be simplified


Simple is good.  Natural is good.
Calculus is bad.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 28, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Simple is good.  Natural is good.
> Calculus is bad.


Lol!


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## Flying Crane (Nov 28, 2021)

Im late to the discussion here, but I have described the Tibetan crane approach in the past, in various threads.  

We take the rooting and rotation approach. You actively dig your feet into the ground and they you can press the feet down and then direct that energy into the hips to drive a rotation.  The entire torso rotates as a unit from the hips to the shoulders, and we avoid or minimize twisting the spine.  In addition, we use an exaggerated movement with the withdrawal of the non-punching arm, that is used as a training mechanism to help train the body in this rotation and ingrain the full-body connection.  Application does not need to include that exaggerated movement.  It is used in training, but is minimized or eliminated in use, once you have developed that skill.  Once you understand the method, you can deliver equal power with the smaller movement.  In Chinese martial arts, we often say, “move big to become small”.  The big movement teaches, to enable smaller movement that is still powerful.

How this methodology translates into movement can vary depending on our physical position, but we have basic exercises and more complex exercises that we use as a progression in learning this skill.  From a position with feet parallel, facing forward, we rotate the entire body from one side to the other, as we punch forward.  From there, we begin punching with one foot stepped forward, similar to a bow stance, punching with both the rear hand and the lead hand.  The rotation and use of the feet is a bit different from the basic position, but the principle is still there and it teaches adaptation while keeping the engine in the game.  Then we actively step and punch, again keeping the engine in use and adapting the principle and method to that changing scenario with ongoing movement.  After this, we can begin learning the forms that represent a much more complex series of movement, and work to keep the principle and method active, within this complex movement.  

And of course at every stage of this process we are able to work on understanding application, at the appropriate level.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 28, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Simple is good.  Natural is good.
> Calculus is bad.


Well, calculus gets us to the moon and beyond, but we aren’t really trying to do that in martial arts.


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## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, calculus gets us to the moon and beyond, but we aren’t really trying to do that in martial arts.


I hate Calculus even though I have to use it quite a bit in motion control. It is the 'short cut' for algebraic equations. You can do almost any trajectory with algebra but damn, does it get long and complex.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 28, 2021)

I like to simplify my power generation method as compress and release.

Example:

Compress (shrink)- move left foot next to right foot. move both hands next to right waist. Twist your body to your right.
Release (expand) - Let go your left leg and right arm.

The more compressing that you have, the more releasing that you can generate. It's easy to learn and easy to drill.

The forward hopping is the key. It forces you to coordinate your punch with your foot landing.





Here is another example: Use hammer fist to compress, use jab to release.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Good video.  It talks about some of the things mentioned here.  @Alan0354 He says he has secrets too lol.  His words not mine lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you really *MISS READ*. I said there is NO SECRET. You know the basic and just practice.

You said about *what if.*....for some reason you cannot involve the whole body(heel, feet, waist, shoulder....), how are you going to do it. BUT, you show all the fights that are free standing that you can use all. Why not show me if you are tackled by a grappler and you are like 1) on the ground and on your back, 2) pushed against the wall and other that you cannot use the whole body. How do you use waist, shoulder and still give a good punch. If I am on free standing, I can use Chinkuchi.

Sorry, talk is cheap. give me example, don't just say "if" you cannot use the whole body, then the other parts are important. I want to see how you punch or attack IF your position is compromised, show videos if you can.

I think you are right that not all situation is ideal, BUT, show me your solution if you are on your back, pinned against the wall, got grabbed and the opponent are at your face. Don't show more free standing fights and talk.

For free standing like boxing where you can dance around. I stand behind what I said.

I am NOT interested in talking, I want *SOLUTION*. show me a solution........How to strike when you are on your back, pinned against the wall or other position by a grappler. If you have a solution, I am all ears.

Hey, at least I did come up with using iron palm to hit the back of the grappler IF I can hit hard enough to injure the grappler. Sadly it did not work out. Tell me how you strike against a grappler where you cannot use your whole body. I am all ears.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 28, 2021)

I want to add to my last post.* I am not an expert like you guys that are instructors*, I only had 3 years of TKD and some Judo and WC only. I do spend time in thinking how to make use of my limited skill and knowledge. This is my NON expert opinion.

I have been practicing cane fight for a few months. The last month, I concentrate in striking multiple opponents in different position by pretending different furniture as person, using different door posts in the entryway as opponents. I try to use FOOTWORK and move to the optimal position to strike different targets with full body engagement to produce the max power.....That is the same as punching or kicking at the optimal position so I can use feet, legs, waist, shoulder to add forces together to give the hardest strike.

The idea is the same as stand up striking at the optimal position. You use FOOTWORK to get you to the optimal position. WHY try to strike in a less optimal position that you can only use some part of the body only? Seems like the most efficient way is to practice footwork to GET to the optimal position.

I have been watching footwork for Kali and try to adapt into both cane fight and kickboxing. I think it's very useful to move to optimal position to strike and move away after striking.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You use FOOTWORK to get you to the optimal position.


But the moment that a clinch has been established, the footwork will no longer work after that.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But the moment that a clinch has been established, the footwork will no longer work after that.
> 
> View attachment 27667



You read my post #40?

That's exactly my question. *All the videos in this thread is about striking in free standing*. The hard part is how to strike an effective strike when you are being tackled, pinned to the wall or on your back. If anyone has a solution, I am all ears. ALL the videos here is of no use when you are being tied up.

When you are standing upright, everything is a lot easier. If you are not in optimal position, use footwork to get to the optimal position. I don't see the point of talking more, every style has their own way of punching, but all involve feet, legs, waist, shoulder. There is NO SECRET in this, we learn it in the first day of school, I am sure it's the same with other schools.* Idea is simple, doing it takes a lot of practice*.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> you really *MISS READ*. I said there is NO SECRET. You know the basic and just practice.


nope.  didn't misread.  Just messing with you.  You may not notice but you tend to have your little irritants. 



Alan0354 said:


> How do you use waist, shoulder and still give a good punch. If I am on free standing, I can use Chinkuchi.


Your feet may not always be in the position to do so.  In additions some techniques just don't have it.  For example,  jab while going backwards and let me know what you are using to create power for your punch.



Alan0354 said:


> Sorry, talk is cheap. give me example, don't just say "if" you cannot use the whole body, then the other parts are important.


Talk isn't cheap.  People should think.  People should earn to think things through come up with their own theories and then test them.  That's the only way a person will understand things.  Think of it like this. Just because someone gives you the right answers to the test doesn't mean you understand what's on the test.  Martial Arts and Fighting is like that.  



Alan0354 said:


> I want to see how you punch or attack IF your position is compromised, show videos if you can.


I've already shown these videos before in the past before you joined where someone went for my legs and I had to generate power with my waist because my legs were not in a position to do so. 

I even have a video of me "sitting in the storm" which just simply means I'm being hit with a bunch of punches, so my legs are helping me keep my balance and stability as I look for an opening to punch with my arms. 

But since you want don't want to think about it.  Here's a video where an elbow is used to strike.  Then again on top mount. In both cases waist movement to generate the power of those strikes.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Don't show more free standing fights and talk.


This is starting to get really tiring.  Every time I talk martial arts with you I'm the one that has to prove something to you.

I had more to say about your post but at this stage, I'm starting not to care


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You read my post #40?
> 
> That's exactly my question. *All the videos in this thread is about striking in free standing*. The hard part is how to strike an effective strike when you are being tackled, pinned to the wall or on your back. If anyone has a solution, I am all ears. ALL the videos here is of no use when you are being tied up.
> 
> When you are standing upright, everything is a lot easier. If you are not in optimal position, use footwork to get to the optimal position. I don't see the point of talking more, every style has their own way of punching, but all involve feet, legs, waist, shoulder. There is NO SECRET in this, we learn it in the first day of school, I am sure it's the same with other schools.* Idea is simple, doing it takes a lot of practice*.


You keep thinking that we are talking about striking and we aren't.  We are looking at different ways people are powering martial art movement.  The videos I posted show how action is being powered.   

If you are reading this and thinking that it's all about striking then you are totally missing the point. 

Generating power with your feet, legs, hips, waist, torso and arms doesn't mean you are always punching.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> nope.  didn't misread.  Just messing with you.  You may not notice but you tend to have your little irritants.
> 
> 
> Your feet may not always be in the position to do so.  In additions some techniques just don't have it.  For example,  jab while going backwards and let me know what you are using to create power for your punch.
> ...


I think a lot, remember I thought of iron palm to hit the opponent's back if they try to shoot and tackle me. I spent a few years on that and it did not work. I think of different scenarios, what if the opponent is too close, I practice elbows on heavy bags and knees to body. I practice hammer fist for close fighting, ridge hand(circle punch) to swing around.

Like I said, I practice footwork lately to get to the better position. Somehow it works better for cane fight than bare knuckles. I don't just practice punching bags standing there at the optimal position, I move in and out, moving in the hit, then moving out, practice footwork together with punching. I make it harder to have 2 bags so I attack one, then turn around and attack the other back and fore. All to learn to acquire the optimal position faster. Do I think about things.

I thought about punching high, so I practice WC punching with the baby knuckle that is better for punching high. Do I think.

I think A LOT, I hang weight balls to hit so it moves around and have to duck after punching, chasing the ball. I make my own deflated weighted speedbag for punching where it swing randomly instead of the normal speedbag that you can establish a rhythm and becomes automatic. Do I think.

I thought you guys are experts, instructors. what you are talking is very basic that I learn pretty much in the first day of TKD, how to use feet, legs, waist, shoulder together to generate the max power. There is no secret, it's simple, doing it is much harder, one just need to know and keep practicing in over and over. I was not even going to join in until you called me out.

Like I said, I was just going through the motion for years even though I never stop punching heavy bags all these years, *I LOST the coordination*. You made a video that reminded me to start slow, do it in slow motion. That reminded me to get back to basics. I have been practice slow and light every time at the beginning of the session to remind myself. Still I can't use the whole body consistently.* Idea is very very simple, make the body work in harmony is the hard part.* The only secret is keep practicing.

For stand up fights, next to using the whole body, footwork is about the next most important thing. You get to the optimal position with footwork. Like I said in post #41, I use the home entryway to practice, there are a lot of door frames, I use each side as one opponent. I learn to attack one, then quickly choose another one, move to optimal position as quick as possible and strike. I do that with cane which is a lot harder as the space is confined. I think a lot to simulate different situations in practical self defense.

Now, if you have idea how to hit very hard when the opponent pin you down on the ground, pin you to the wall and very close, I am all ears. All I can think of is elbows and generate power with just the shoulder. That is something really worth talking short of learning take down defense.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think a lot, remember I thought of iron palm to hit the opponent's back if they try to shoot and tackle me. I spent a few years on that and it did not work. I think of different scenarios, what if the opponent is too close, I practice elbows on heavy bags and knees to body. I practice hammer fist for close fighting, ridge hand(circle punch) to swing around.
> 
> Like I said, I practice footwork lately to get to the better position. Somehow it works better for cane fight than bare knuckles. I don't just practice punching bags standing there at the optimal position, I move in and out, moving in the hit, then moving out, practice footwork together with punching. I make it harder to have 2 bags so I attack one, then turn around and attack the other back and fore. All to learn to acquire the optimal position faster. Do I think about things.
> 
> ...


I believe this is the wrong thread for what you are asking/talking about. You might get better responses if you lose the aggressive attitude. Nobody is claiming to be an expert here. Some of us have decades of experience that we base our opinions on. We are discussing the different ways of generating power, not techniques for the clinch. You say this is a simple thing you learned in beginning TKD, so why not explain in detail how YOU do it. Being aggressive or rude isn’t going to solicit the advice you seem to be seeking.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think a lot, remember I thought of iron palm to hit the opponent's back if they try to shoot and tackle me. I spent a few years on that and it did not work. I think of different scenarios, what if the opponent is too close, I practice elbows on heavy bags and knees to body. I practice hammer fist for close fighting, ridge hand(circle punch) to swing around.
> 
> Like I said, I practice footwork lately to get to the better position. Somehow it works better for cane fight than bare knuckles. I don't just practice punching bags standing there at the optimal position, I move in and out, moving in the hit, then moving out, practice footwork together with punching. I make it harder to have 2 bags so I attack one, then turn around and attack the other back and fore. All to learn to acquire the optimal position faster. Do I think about things.
> 
> ...


If you want to learn how to fight from the mount or the guard then get some basic bjj classes. I recommend that anyone get at least 6 months of basic grappling skills to understand what they do.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think a lot, remember I thought of iron palm to hit the opponent's back if they try to shoot and tackle me.


I think you thought too much.

Iron palm won't stop a charging bull, why would you waste it on one?


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## Hanzou (Nov 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


>



That video shows why its important to hold people down on the ground. Knocking them down is no guarantee that they will stay there.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That video shows why its important to hold people down on the ground. Knocking them down is no guarantee that they will stay there.


Sure ok, but that isn’t what this thread is about.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think a lot, remember I thought of iron palm to hit the opponent's back if they try to shoot and tackle me. I spent a few years on that and it did not work.


You didn't factor in the other aspects of someone tackling you.  For example.
1. What if the person lifts my legs?
2. What if the person goes under my punch, will I have enough time to respond. 
3. If the tackle knocks you off balance then will you still be able to strike.
4. What if your opponent comes in at an angle that doesn't allow you to strike his back?
5. What if your opponent punches your face then go for your leg.
6. Did you ever ask someone to try to tackle you.  I don't mean that light effort stuff.  I mean did someone try to put you on your back.  Did that person know how to do take downs at all.  
7.  What if the person come in high for the take down and not. Take downs can be initiated from high up as well. 

The list goes on and on and on. But you have create theories about this using the physics of the actions so that you can have a theory if it will work or not. Once you run these through possible scenarios then you begin to see that the window to land a solid hit when someone is trying to take you down is very small because everything has to be perfect.  

You also have to be honest about your theories and the limitations of techniques.  Theories should never be what you want them to be.  You should have no bias when creating a theory. You should have a an open mind and allow physics and body mechanics to help you develop your theory.  Even before you determine what technique you will do against someone.  You must first understand how your opponent's techniques can effect your body or your mind.  "Know your enemy.  Know yourself."

Also don't always try to make things "Simple" there's nothing simple about fighting, and there's nothing simple about executing a technique successfully.

I always tell people to address grappling with grappling.  I can strike when someone is grabbing me but only after I  first address their grappling.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Now, if you have idea how to hit very hard when the opponent pin you down on the ground, pin you to the wall and very close, I am all ears. All I can think of is elbows


Very difficult to generate striking power when your hips and/or shoulders are against a surface and thus, neutralized. Elbows may work in some cases, headbutts can work, and biting is an option.  Eye pokes and ripping the cheeks or ears don't need much power so should work well.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> If you want to learn how to fight from the mount or the guard then get some basic bjj classes.


Other than the above options, this is the answer.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Now, if you have idea how to hit very hard when the opponent pin you down on the ground, pin you to the wall and very close, I am all ears. All I can think of is elbows


Just spend $19.99 to get yourself a spikers ring - the BJJ guy's worst nightmare.  

If you train how to fight with your cane (weapon fight while standing), you should also train how to fight on the ground with your spikers ring (weapon fight while on the ground).

I assume your MA interest is beyond the "sport".


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 29, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Very difficult to generate striking power when your hips and/or shoulders are against a surface and thus, neutralized. Elbows may work in some cases, headbutts can work, and biting is an option.  Eye pokes and ripping the cheeks or ears don't need much power so should work well.
> 
> Other than the above options, this is the answer.


I agree with you on this, but, eye pokes and fish hooks can really escalate things to a new level. Not saying I haven’t done it, just saying that your opponent may gain renewed vigor once you have a thumb in his eye socket.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 29, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Very difficult to generate striking power when your hips and/or shoulders are against a surface and thus, neutralized. Elbows may work in some cases, headbutts can work, and biting is an option.  Eye pokes and ripping the cheeks or ears don't need much power so should work well.
> 
> Other than the above options, this is the answer.


Yep, options are limited but that's to me what is really important. When you are standing, everything is a lot easier.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just spend $19.99 to get yourself a spikers ring - the BJJ guy's worst nightmare.
> 
> If you train how to fight with your cane (weapon fight while standing), you should also train how to fight on the ground with your spikers ring (weapon fight while on the ground).
> 
> ...


No, I have *NO* interest in sport. It's all self defense, live and death. I am not interested in a lot of talk, if I am standing, I'd find a way to get into position I can use the complete body. BUT that's not what is pressing for a striker only people like me. The worst is to be tackled on the ground.

Is this legal? I would get it in a heart beat if it is. That would be the best idea so far. I wonder whether rings with more pointed edge would work. I suspect those spike ring is not legal.

Thanks


I am looking at self defense pen I can put in pocket also. That should be very effective if I have one in my hand with a grappler.


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## Hanzou (Nov 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That video shows why its important to hold people down on the ground. Knocking them down is no guarantee that they will stay there.



Weren’t you talking about the guard and mount in post# 49?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am looking at self defense pen I can put in pocket also. That should be very effective if I have one in my hand with a grappler.


This is the ancient Chinese weapon used in the ground fight (or under water). You put your middle finger through the ring. It can be a very tight grip. Not sure it's legal or not. You can always say you will use it for "spear fishing".


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## Alan0354 (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the ancient Chinese weapon used in the ground fight (or under water). You put your middle finger through the ring. It can be a very tight grip. Not sure it's legal or not. You can always say you will use it for "spear fishing".
> 
> View attachment 27670


I am pretty sure it's illegal.

I think tactical pen is the closest, it might not be too sharp, but poking into the body got to hurt.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am pretty sure it's illegal.
> 
> I think tactical pen is the closest, it might not be too sharp, but poking into the body got to hurt.


The Pan Guan Bi is similar to the one I posted. The only difference is the missing hook.


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## dvcochran (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the ancient Chinese weapon used in the ground fight (or under water). You put your middle finger through the ring. It can be a very tight grip. Not sure it's legal or not. You can always say you will use it for "spear fishing".
> 
> View attachment 27670


Haha!!! I would like to see how that goes down at the hospital or at the library. 
"Purely for research" might work I suppose. 
Interesting little gadget.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The Pan Guan Bi is similar to the one I posted. The only difference is the missing hook.
> 
> View attachment 27671
> 
> View attachment 27672


This is getting very similar to the tactical pen, just missing the loop for the middle finger.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> This is getting very similar to the tactical pen, just missing the loop for the middle finger.


The loop in the middle is important. Without it, you can't hold it tight.

This is also a good SD weapon.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the ancient Chinese weapon used in the ground fight (or under water). You put your middle finger through the ring. It can be a very tight grip. Not sure it's legal or not. You can always say you will use it for "spear fishing".
> 
> View attachment 27670


My bet would be illegal, at least in California.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 29, 2021)

Back to the subject. The infinite symbol can be a good power generation method. When you swing your arm in one direction (release), toward the end, your releasing can be a compressing. You then swing your arm to the opposite direction (release).

Application: You hook punch at your opponent's head. Your opponent dodges under your hook. You change your hook into a horizontal hammer fist and still punch his head.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That video shows why its important to hold people down on the ground. Knocking them down is no guarantee that they will stay there.


IHOP.  Hmm.

That video has nothing on a Denny's video.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Weren’t you talking about the guard and mount in post# 49?


Yes, but as a reply to some other off topic post. You are of course, welcome to post as you please, I am no authority on anything at all.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 30, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Very difficult to generate striking power when your hips and/or shoulders are against a surface and thus, neutralized. Elbows may work in some cases, headbutts can work, and biting is an option.  Eye pokes and ripping the cheeks or ears don't need much power so should work well.
> 
> Other than the above options, this is the answer.


If I'm on my back then I would want to generate power, but not for striking.  I could still generate power from my legs, arms, and waist.   I would use leg power, twisting power, collapsing power and sinking power and arm power generation. 

The power flow also wouldn't necessarily travel in an orderly fashion like striking.   I may start from my legs or it may start from my hands.


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## J. Pickard (Nov 30, 2021)

Just semantics here, but Power, by definition, is work over time. Power has nothing to do with hitting harder, what you are referring to is kinetic energy. To maximize damage you need to increase pressure (penetration) while decreasing impulse (pushing) when it comes to striking, both of which are a product of Impact force, which is applied kinetic energy. A higher kinetic energy will increase impact force, spread that impact over a smaller area and you will decrease impulse while increasing pressure which maximizes damage. Now when grappling you want higher power because we are not creating an impact force, we are applying the force over a change in time which is work (W=F/Δt). Applying that work over a given time is power (P=dW/dt). Everything people are saying to get more power is actually increasing KE (which is good, that's what you want when striking) not increasing Power. Just semantics, but felt like throwing it out there.


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## dvcochran (Nov 30, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Just semantics here, but Power, by definition, is work over time. Power has nothing to do with hitting harder, what you are referring to is kinetic energy. To maximize damage you need to increase pressure (penetration) while decreasing impulse (pushing) when it comes to striking, both of which are a product of Impact force, which is applied kinetic energy. A higher kinetic energy will increase impact force, spread that impact over a smaller area and you will decrease impulse while increasing pressure which maximizes damage. Now when grappling you want higher power because we are not creating an impact force, we are applying the force over a change in time which is work (W=F/Δt). Applying that work over a given time is power (P=dW/dt). Everything people are saying to get more power is actually increasing KE (which is good, that's what you want when striking) not increasing Power. Just semantics, but felt like throwing it out there.


Interesting assessment. I am not fully clear on your explanation of pushing as a bad thing. In physics, it would be the beginning and process of a punch. I love physics (real world math application). It does get complicated to apply at times and there is a plethora of equations, sometimes multiple for the same thing.  

Power - P=work x time
Force - mass x acceleration
Kinetic energy - E = 12 x mass x velocity²
Work - Force × displacement × cosθ
Impulse - Force x time = mass x Δ velocity (the impulse causes AND is equal to the change in motion),

There are dozens more but these are relevant to your post. I think it is very, very important to cancel out semantics when applying physics to the explanation. Honestly, I never gave it much thought but it does seem harder to define the work being performed during a choke or a static block. More potential energy rather than kinetic energy maybe? Power and work equations do not quite explain what is going on. 

I am a bit fixated on your assessment of decreasing push to increase penetration. I cannot picture how this works. To me you cannot have one without the other. This is definitely where semantics can confuse things to me. 
Your latter assessment of reducing area to increase pressure is correct in any scenario I can think of (all other things being equal). 

This is fun.


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## mograph (Nov 30, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Just semantics here, but Power, by definition, is work over time.



"Power" has multiple definitions, and context affects choice of definition. In this context, the effect of "power" is the same as that of "kinetic energy."


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## Flying Crane (Nov 30, 2021)

I believe it is a mistake to try and take discussions such as these into the realm of physics.  We can discuss terms like power even if we aren’t meeting the definition of the word as found in a physics textbook.  I think we all understand what we are really talking about.

Sometimes folks get very terminology-heavy and borrow from physics and biology in their discussions.  On some simple level that can be useful depending on context, at other times it borders on comical, but let’s understand from the get-go that we will not define the equation to describe the perfect punch.  It just ain’t happening.


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## J. Pickard (Nov 30, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I am a bit fixated on your assessment of decreasing push to increase penetration. I cannot picture how this works. To me you cannot have one without the other. This is definitely where semantics can confuse things to me.
> Your latter assessment of reducing area to increase pressure is correct in any scenario I can think of (all other things being equal).


Sorry, bad phrasing and messy wording on my part. I should specify, I really mean applying impulse to the target. I simplified it as pushing as in if I hit something and cause it to move then it's more of a push which will deal less damage than a penetrating strike which happens from pressure. Penetration vs. a push when striking basically. If I hit a target and it moves in the same direction as I am hitting it, effectively increasing the distance and lowering the impact force as impact is measured by dividing KE over distance. This is an increase in impulse (change in momentum) that negatively affects the impact force by increasing the distance.  Conversely if I can keep a high impact force spread over a small area I will increase the pressure and penetrate deeper causing more damage. I didn't mean to say that I "push" less with my strike but rather I am trying to not use my strike as a push. Sloppy wording on my part.  It's all semantics, but I believe that [trying] to understand the the biomechanics/physics behind martial techniques can give a better understanding of how to improve them but in order to do that you need to first know what it is you are trying to change which is why I pointed out the semantics of "power" actually referring to KE. It's pedantic, I know, but hey some people enjoy the pedantry. 

I agree with you that there is not one formula to consider but many and it is very messy. Too many variables. Kinematic studies usually just look at after the movements already started to keep things simpler and it's still complicated but fun to consider.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 30, 2021)

mograph said:


> "Power" has multiple definitions, and context affects choice of definition. In this context, the effect of "power" is the same as that of "kinetic energy."


Agreed, and all of those definitions can be seen in this one video.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 30, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> This is getting very similar to the tactical pen, just missing the loop for the middle finger.





Oily Dragon said:


> Agreed, and all of those definitions can be seen in this one video.


Lol!


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe it is a mistake to try and take discussions such as these into the realm of physics.  We can discuss terms like power even if we aren’t meeting the definition of the word as found in a physics textbook.  I think we all understand what we are really talking about.
> 
> Sometimes folks get very terminology-heavy and borrow from physics and biology in their discussions.  On some simple level that can be useful depending on context, at other times it borders on comical, but let’s understand from the get-go that we will not define the equation to describe the perfect punch.  It just ain’t happening.


A few days ago, I posted this:  "Simple is good....Calculus is bad."  Admittedly, I may be biased, as when I see a page of funny looking symbols mixed with numbers I immediately skip that page.

You can understand the math better than Einstein, but I'll bet he couldn't punch worth sh*t.  It may be intellectually fun (for some) to figure out the physics, but there are other factors involved that can only be _experienced_.  How can you put in numbers the way a punch _feels_ as it effortlessly explodes, almost of its own accord?  

While good karate follows the rules of physics, the rules of physics do not fully explain karate.  There is more to it than quantitative principles:  spiritual bearing, breathing, reading the opponent, muscle memory, and so on. When teaching, I try not to break the information into pixels, but use a more analog (holistic) approach of the way a move feels. Hundreds of reps later, the student gets it.  

To use an art analogy, Western paintings may use many dozens of precise dabs or strokes of the brush to paint a bird.  Japaneses Sumi-e painting uses just four or six strokes to evoke the same image.  Elegance is in simplicity. The Japanese call this concept _shibumi.  _I love that word.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Nov 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What he says in video is true and taught in Jow Ga as well.  The major difference for me is how I teach it.  I tend to use the term Waist and not Torso.  Torso to me is too general.  Upper torso. = anything above stomach. Lower torso = below chest and above the hips.  I like to use the term "waist" because most people understand that location.  If I ask someone to wrap a belt around their waist, that person will place the belt in the area that I need the student to focus on.
> 
> I train in a circular system and the concept of using the waist (torso) to generate power is key.  Jow Ga Kung Fu has these long circular punches that take some effort to get going.  Here you can see a demonstration of one of these punches and how the power is generated.  Typically the power starts at the ground and picks up other areas of generation. Ideally, a punch should use a "Power Multiplier" concept. The more you can add the better.  How many you add it up to you and the position you are in when throwing the strike.
> 
> ...


It depends on what style you take. I have practiced American Kenpo (my  version) for over fifty years. I am still fast, strong and very limber. Kenpo techniques is a fine balance between circular movements and straight line styles.  
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe it is a mistake to try and take discussions such as these into the realm of physics.  We can discuss terms like power even if we aren’t meeting the definition of the word as found in a physics textbook.  I think we all understand what we are really talking about.
> 
> Sometimes folks get very terminology-heavy and borrow from physics and biology in their discussions.  On some simple level that can be useful depending on context, at other times it borders on comical, but let’s understand from the get-go that we will not define the equation to describe the perfect punch.  It just ain’t happening.


I agree with your comments about Physics.  There's a difference between measuring power and knowing how to generate power and knowing how to connect the points of power generation.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Back to the subject. The infinite symbol can be a good power generation method. When you swing your arm in one direction (release), toward the end, your releasing can be a compressing. You then swing your arm to the opposite direction (release).
> 
> Application: You hook punch at your opponent's head. Your opponent dodges under your hook. You change your hook into a horizontal hammer fist and still punch his head.
> 
> View attachment 27673


Earlier there was talk about balancing power and speed.  This is what I would consider blending of power and speed.  The first strike has no end and the second strike has no beginning.  One motion helps to generate the power and speed of another motion


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## dvcochran (Nov 30, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Sorry, bad phrasing and messy wording on my part. I should specify, I really mean applying impulse to the target. I simplified it as pushing as in if I hit something and cause it to move then it's more of a push which will deal less damage than a penetrating strike which happens from pressure. Penetration vs. a push when striking basically. If I hit a target and it moves in the same direction as I am hitting it, effectively increasing the distance and lowering the impact force as impact is measured by dividing KE over distance. This is an increase in impulse (change in momentum) that negatively affects the impact force by increasing the distance.  Conversely if I can keep a high impact force spread over a small area I will increase the pressure and penetrate deeper causing more damage. I didn't mean to say that I "push" less with my strike but rather I am trying to not use my strike as a push. Sloppy wording on my part.  It's all semantics, but I believe that [trying] to understand the the biomechanics/physics behind martial techniques can give a better understanding of how to improve them but in order to do that you need to first know what it is you are trying to change which is why I pointed out the semantics of "power" actually referring to KE. It's pedantic, I know, but hey some people enjoy the pedantry.
> 
> I agree with you that there is not one formula to consider but many and it is very messy. Too many variables. Kinematic studies usually just look at after the movements already started to keep things simpler and it's still complicated but fun to consider.


Now we are getting somewhere. Well said.
I agree with Flying Crane that most of the time we just need to hit something until we figure out how to do it, or how to do it better. But as we learn we should also learn how to be efficient. I feel everything you have mentioned encompasses this.
If a person understands physics, it makes sense to talk to them in 'physics speak'. If they understand Tinker Toys, speak to them in that form. Generally, I try to speak to someone as I am being spoken to. At least I try to start that way unless a precedence has already been set. Being able to put the cookies where everyone can understand them is truly a talent; one I fail at regularly I feel. 
I don't ever remember waxing into physics terms when teaching a MA's class but have gone into the same details we have in this thread many times in one on one or group conversations. 
I like to think of it as a higher level of understanding about this MA's thing we do and love.


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## J. Pickard (Nov 30, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> While good karate follows the rules of physics, the rules of physics do not fully explain karate.  There is more to it than quantitative principles:


100% disagree. Every single aspect of all legitimate martial arts are quantitative and can be explored and understood through the scientific method. Everything from the breathing, to the mechanics, and even that sense of serenity that comes from proper training can all be explained and explored through the scientific method


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## Flying Crane (Nov 30, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> 100% disagree. Every single aspect of all legitimate martial arts are quantitative and can be explored and understood through the scientific method. Everything from the breathing, to the mechanics, and even that sense of serenity that comes from proper training can all be explained and explored through the scientific method


And yet the vast vast vast majority of folks lack the background in physics, biology, chemistry and likely some other topics, to do so.  And we are able to discuss it quite adequately without doing so.


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## Hanzou (Dec 1, 2021)

Ah, people believing in magical martial arts. Eastern mysticism rears its ugly head once again.


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## dvcochran (Dec 1, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Ah, people believing in magical martial arts. Eastern mysticism rears its ugly head once again.


More like scientific method. Most of the stuff we do can be broken down and explained.


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## J. Pickard (Dec 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> And yet the vast vast vast majority of folks lack the background in physics, biology, chemistry and likely some other topics, to do so.  And we are able to discuss it quite adequately without doing so.


Oh for sure, you can discuss anything without completely understanding the science behind it. You can enjoy and benefit and even become very skilled in martial arts without knowing the biomechanics behind it. I [personal opinion] think some people can improve faster and gain a better understanding of the "why" in their art if they explore the science behind it even in a basic level. Additionally exploring martial arts from a scientific perspective can help weed out the frauds and Dillmans of the martial arts world and stop them from taking advantage of people by exposing them as shysters.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 1, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Oh for sure, you can discuss anything without completely understanding the science behind it. You can enjoy and benefit and even become very skilled in martial arts without knowing the biomechanics behind it. I [personal opinion] think some people can improve faster and gain a better understanding of the "why" in their art if they explore the science behind it even in a basic level. Additionally exploring martial arts from a scientific perspective can help weed out the frauds and Dillmans of the martial arts world and stop them from taking advantage of people by exposing them as shysters.


For the most part yes. But I think it will have difficulty with things like the things like landing a strike at the same time another opponent strikes.  Punches that are the striking the same area may register the same on the equipment but has a different out come when applied to a person.  

I've seen scientists try to measure martial arts with science and get it totally wrong.  Most of this error is due to them not understanding enough about the technique.  They only see the impact they may not see the distraction that caused by the technique that makes the impact of the strike.

They usually only think. Hit that target as hard as you can.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Earlier there was talk about balancing power and speed.  This is what I would consider blending of power and speed.  The first strike has no end and the second strike has no beginning.  One motion helps to generate the power and speed of another motion


One motion helps to generate the power and speed of another motion

- Back fist.
- Overhand.

https://i.postimg.cc/jdT2GHMd/my-3-rings-catch-the-moon.gif

- Spin back fist.
- Hook.

https://i.postimg.cc/MpLvCLP2/my-spin-back-fist.gif


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 1, 2021)

In Jow Ga I often power larger movements with smaller movements.  With my straight sword I will sometimes power a swing of the sword with two fingers.  It works like a spark plug by powering the initial movement.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> In Jow Ga I often power larger movements with smaller movements.


The Mizong system also uses this principle a lot. The circular movement before a straight punch can confuse your opponent a lot.


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## J. Pickard (Dec 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> For the most part yes. But I think it will have difficulty with things like the things like landing a strike at the same time another opponent strikes.  Punches that are the striking the same area may register the same on the equipment but has a different out come when applied to a person.
> 
> I've seen scientists try to measure martial arts with science and get it totally wrong.  Most of this error is due to them not understanding enough about the technique.  They only see the impact they may not see the distraction that caused by the technique that makes the impact of the strike.
> 
> They usually only think. Hit that target as hard as you can.


That depends on what they are trying to measure. Boxing and martial art kinesiology is actually a huge area of study to the point that some major universities have graduate studies dedicated to it. If you want to know how to hit harder i.e. higher impact force then that's what you focus your study on. If you want to know best areas to hit, then you focus on that. as far as timing a strike, that is purely reaction time and is something that can be trained and kinesiologist can study why/how reaction time works. Everything in the martial arts is quantifiable in some way.


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## dvcochran (Dec 1, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Oh for sure, you can discuss anything without completely understanding the science behind it. You can enjoy and benefit and even become very skilled in martial arts without knowing the biomechanics behind it. I [personal opinion] think some people can improve faster and gain a better understanding of the "why" in their art if they explore the science behind it even in a basic level. Additionally exploring martial arts from a scientific perspective can help weed out the frauds and Dillmans of the martial arts world and stop them from taking advantage of people by exposing them as shysters.


Dillman; now that is a word I have not seen in a long time. 
Made me laugh.


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## mograph (Dec 1, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Everything in the martial arts is quantifiable in some way.


Only to the extent that it can be _measured_, yes?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 1, 2021)

The wrist grab, back fist is also an interested power generation drill.

https://i.postimg.cc/26mJYhxQ/Mizon-slow-1.gif


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 1, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Everything in the martial arts is quantifiable in some way.


When you throw a punch, will the opponent move straight in or back to block, or will they just cover up and cower? What is the formula for computing this?  How does one quantify one's heart and fighting spirit that may vary depending on situation or emotional state at the time? 

Doesn't one's spirit affect one's level of commitment in sparring/combat, and thus affect not only the choice of move, but the power put behind it? Is the opponent passive or aggressive and how does this affect one's action/reaction?

Judgement and reading the opponent is based on a variety of experiences and even more interpretations of them. After extensive studies (psychological and mathematical) a statistical model may be drawn for a large sample, but will not be reliable for any single person at any given time.

I have seen people with terrible form and inefficient body mechanics, but would be fearsome opponents as they were bat sh*t crazy.  Science can explain the transmission of electro-chemical impulses in the brain, but cannot explain how or the method one uses their free will to express or execute their thoughts and actions.

The bottom line is that math can explain the physical mechanics of individual body movements and their optimum effects under a given set of criteria, but not how they are used or how one's spiritual bearing will affect them.  IMO, these are variables outside the realm of physics.  To think karate (and other MA) can be reduced to simple body mechanics has a very limited understanding of MA, combat, and life in general.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Oh for sure, you can discuss anything without completely understanding the science behind it. You can enjoy and benefit and even become very skilled in martial arts without knowing the biomechanics behind it. I [personal opinion] think some people can improve faster and gain a better understanding of the "why" in their art if they explore the science behind it even in a basic level. Additionally exploring martial arts from a scientific perspective can help weed out the frauds and Dillmans of the martial arts world and stop them from taking advantage of people by exposing them as shysters.


Ok, but when you start nit-picking the definition of power, as used in Physics, compared to how we are using it here in this discussion, I think it is moving in the direction of not useful.  🙂


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Ah, people believing in magical martial arts. Eastern mysticism rears its ugly head once again.


I fail to see the difference between this and any sort of religion, fairy tale, myth, or old wives tales. Your statement is valid only so long as you don’t engage in believing in these things. That being said, many people derive benefit from these things, no matter the substantive qualities or lack thereof.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, but when you start nit-picking the definition of power, as used in Physics, compared to how we are using it here in this discussion, I think it is moving in the direction of not useful.  🙂


I agree with flying crane on this. Again, this discussion was about how each individual perceives and or expresses their personal experience when using the body to generate power or movement or whatever anyone chooses to call it. Pedantic discussion of jargon can be relegated to some other thread.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> When you throw a punch, will the opponent move straight in or back to block, or will they just cover up and cower? What is the formula for computing this?  How does one quantify one's heart and fighting spirit that may vary depending on situation or emotional state at the time?
> 
> Doesn't one's spirit affect one's level of commitment in sparring/combat, and thus affect not only the choice of move, but the power put behind it? Is the opponent passive or aggressive and how does this affect one's action/reaction?
> 
> ...


Furthermore, Physics is an incomplete science that grows and discovers regularly. To assert that we have all the answers due to our understanding of physics is simply the antithesis of science, and a rather rudimentary point of view


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> That depends on what they are trying to measure. Boxing and martial art kinesiology is actually a huge area of study to the point that some major universities have graduate studies dedicated to it. If you want to know how to hit harder i.e. higher impact force then that's what you focus your study on. If you want to know best areas to hit, then you focus on that. as far as timing a strike, that is purely reaction time and is something that can be trained and kinesiologist can study why/how reaction time works. Everything in the martial arts is quantifiable in some way.


I disagree. The Human is not so simple( ok maybe me). We are not all the same. the state of mind in any person in any given situation is not quantifiable. This very thing is as often as not a critical factor in the quality of movement. Navy SEALs are not chosen only for physical ability. The strength of character and mental state are more important factors and simply cannot be boiled down to an equation.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Furthermore, Physics is an incomplete science that grows and discovers regularly. To assert that we have all the answers due to our understanding of physics is simply the antithesis of science, and a rather rudimentary point of view



One of my pet peeves is when someone throws out “E=MC^2” in a martial arts discussion.  In my opinion, that reveals a less-than-rudimentary understanding of both martial arts and physics, yet the use of the equation is often an attempt to “elevate” one’s training and authority in The eyes of the other discussion participants.  “See, we are SCIENTISTS!  Our training is superior to yours!”

When throwing a punch, how do you determine M?  Is it the weight of the fist? How do you weigh a fist when it is connected to the arm and torso?  How about the arm?  The torso?  The entire body? But the fist or the body isn’t floating in a vacuum and moving uniformly as a solid body.  It is planted on the ground and only part of it is moving toward the target.  What about a deliberate and forceful driving of the fist through the target, vs. letting it rebound off the surface of the target, without any attempt at penetration?  This creates complications in the simple act of determining what the measurements are.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> One of my pet peeves is when someone throws out “E=MC^2” in a martial arts discussion.  In my opinion, that reveals a less-than-rudimentary understanding of both martial arts and physics, yet the use of the equation is often an attempt to “elevate” one’s training and authority in The eyes of the other discussion participants.  “See, we are SCIENTISTS!  Our training is superior to yours!”
> 
> When throwing a punch, how do you determine M?  Is it the weight of the fist? How do you weigh a fist when it is connected to the arm and torso?  How about the arm?  The torso?  The entire body? But the fist or the body isn’t floating in a vacuum and moving uniformly as a solid body.  It is planted on the ground and only part of it is moving toward the target.  What about a deliberate and forceful driving of the fist through the target, vs. letting it rebound off the surface of the target, without any attempt at penetration?  This creates complications in the simple act of determining what the measurements are.


We just end up in the weeds here as most of us(me)don’t have the education or  ability to debate physics application in martial arts.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We just end up in the weeds here as most of us(me)don’t have the education or  ability to debate physics application in martial arts.


Exactly.  Which was my point in this little tangent.


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## krowe (Dec 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This thread is to discuss the ways to power one's martial arts movement.  I was originally going to focus only on strikes, but decided to focus on movement instead.  This was originally a side discussion in another group so I'll start there.  Feel free to discus any mechanics of any system.
> 
> To start off here are the power generators
> 1. Linear Movement
> ...


You covered a lot of ground with that opening statement haha. One that I did not see mentioned is more of a way to augment the power in your strikes using the stretch reflex. Its not really a stand alone method but a way to use your body like a rubber band. There is a physiological effect that occurs due to small organelles in between the muscles where they become ligament. This organelle creates a stretch reflex when the muscle has been stretched to a certain point, causing it to contract. If you are in good control of your kinetic chain you can execute your movments (in general) and as such, strikes, to the timing of the stretch reflex. This is a good way to at a snap to your strikes. It can be combined with the torque to produce a lot of power. So basically its the bodies natural elasticity combined with good timing during sequential movments. Catch the "bounce point" and carry the force through to the next movement to accelerate. There are a lot of sneaky ways to use this to change up the tempo and throw your opponent off too. Works with grappling too. Except you force your opponent to resist a press or pull which causes them to reflexively contract tgeir muscles to resist (if they fall for it) and a beat later the muscles will relax and create an opening. There are some funky tricks you cna do with breath as well.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 1, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> When you throw a punch, will the opponent move straight in or back to block, or will they just cover up and cower? What is the formula for computing this?  How does one quantify one's heart and fighting spirit that may vary depending on situation or emotional state at the time?
> 
> Doesn't one's spirit affect one's level of commitment in sparring/combat, and thus affect not only the choice of move, but the power put behind it? Is the opponent passive or aggressive and how does this affect one's action/reaction?
> 
> ...


But you are now talking about 3 different things; essentially physical, mental, and spiritual. Up to this point we were only talking about the mechanics (physics) of movement. 
It is easy to take martial arts completely out of the conversation and talk about people I know who are bat sh*t crazy good fighters because they are well, bat sh*t crazy.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> One of my pet peeves is when someone throws out “E=MC^2” in a martial arts discussion.  In my opinion, that reveals a less-than-rudimentary understanding of both martial arts and physics, yet the use of the equation is often an attempt to “elevate” one’s training and authority in The eyes of the other discussion participants.  “See, we are SCIENTISTS!  Our training is superior to yours!”
> 
> When throwing a punch, how do you determine M?  Is it the weight of the fist? How do you weigh a fist when it is connected to the arm and torso?  How about the arm?  The torso?  The entire body? But the fist or the body isn’t floating in a vacuum and moving uniformly as a solid body.  It is planted on the ground and only part of it is moving toward the target.  What about a deliberate and forceful driving of the fist through the target, vs. letting it rebound off the surface of the target, without any attempt at penetration?  This creates complications in the simple act of determining what the measurements are.


Sooo, instead you say "SEE WE ARE MARTIAL ARTISTS! And this is okay?
We all see the bigger picture in different ways. The broader a person's experience the more likely they are to overlap that experience with their training. That is not a bad thing and more often is very enlightening. 

In your argument of measuring for M, whatever you measure (finger, fist, or whole arm) would be used as a constant going forward. You would create a baseline to know how to interpret the results going forward. 
Really not that hard and exactly how people use an accelerometer on a punching bag.


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 1, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> But you are now talking about 3 different things; essentially physical, mental, and spiritual. Up to this point we were only talking about the mechanics (physics) of movement.


I was responding to the quote below.


J. Pickard said:


> Every single aspect of all legitimate martial arts are quantitative


But even the mechanics may be affected by the mental and spiritual aspects of TMA as I discussed.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 1, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I fail to see the difference between this and any sort of religion, fairy tale, myth, or old wives tales. Your statement is valid only so long as you don’t engage in believing in these things. That being said, many people derive benefit from these things, no matter the substantive qualities or lack thereof.



There isn't much difference. Both are highly dangerous when people start to believe the inherent BS these dogmas spew out.


----------



## J. Pickard (Dec 1, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I disagree. The Human is not so simple( ok maybe me). We are not all the same. the state of mind in any person in any given situation is not quantifiable. This very thing is as often as not a critical factor in the quality of movement. Navy SEALs are not chosen only for physical ability. The strength of character and mental state are more important factors and simply cannot be boiled down to an equation.


It is quantifiable. Mental states are literally the entirety of certain fields of neuro science.


mograph said:


> Only to the extent that it can be _measured_, yes?


yes, and as a result you can explore where those measurements come and why they are what they are from which will lead to more questions, and ultimately more questions on top of that ad infinitum. And from that we learn more and get better at things.


isshinryuronin said:


> When you throw a punch, will the opponent move straight in or back to block, or will they just cover up and cower? What is the formula for computing this?  How does one quantify one's heart and fighting spirit that may vary depending on situation or emotional state at the time?
> 
> Doesn't one's spirit affect one's level of commitment in sparring/combat, and thus affect not only the choice of move, but the power put behind it? Is the opponent passive or aggressive and how does this affect one's action/reaction?
> 
> ...


Regardless of mental state, biomechanics is the same. A lever is a lever and feeling pumped up doesn't change that. Heart is an organ and spirit is a vague nonsense descriptor for a complex mental state of which can be measured. Everything you have listed here, individually, is quantifiable in some regard except individual behavior (as far as I know). But that's not my point. My point is that developing "power" does nothing to help the end goal of increasing damage done to an opponent the basic mechanics of which are already fully understood individually. If you want to explore ways of increasing damage to an opponent then first figuring out what causes that helps. A lot goes into making an overall effective fighter and it is super complex and made of hundreds of parts, but the question of how to get more power is not complex. Does it matter? To most people, no. For others clearly and accurately defining terms can help to find the answers they are looking for. If you want to know which technique has the highest potential for damage, then understanding the mechanics of the human body in an accurate way can help find that answer. You don't need to know it to be a good fighter, you don't even need to know it to be a good coach. But if you ask the question "why" and you want to explore the why then correctly identifying terms helps.


----------



## J. Pickard (Dec 1, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Furthermore, Physics is an incomplete science that grows and discovers regularly. To assert that we have all the answers due to our understanding of physics is simply the antithesis of science, and a rather rudimentary point of view


there is no such thing as a "complete science". Science is a method of discovering truths about our universe and everything in it and until the grand unified theory is discovered there will always be more questions than we have answers for. However, certain principles are fully understood. Understanding these principals fully and accurately can help you find answers to questions such as "how do I cause maximum damage with a punch under specific circumstances". Surface level; Hit hard. For those that surface level isn't satisfying enough you gotta go deeper.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2021)

Ugly Eastern mysticism.

What does a tiger care about numbers?  They only care about their bone structure.

And before humans invented numbers, there was the Universe.


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## dvcochran (Dec 1, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I was responding to the quote below.
> 
> But even the mechanics may be affected by the mental and spiritual aspects of TMA as I discussed.


After a time in training I agree.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> The bottom line is that math can explain the physical mechanics of individual body movements and their optimum effects under a given set of criteria, but not how they are used or how one's spiritual bearing will affect them. IMO, these are variables outside the realm of physics. To think karate (and other MA) can be reduced to simple body mechanics has a very limited understanding of MA, combat, and life in general.


I tend to look at Martial Arts from the perspective of *Body Mechanics* + *Human Behavior* + *Human Biology* +* Fighting System* = *Martial Arts

Body Mechanics* = This will the physical side of things which can be trained without need of being able to apply the technique.  For the most part, most of this stuff can be measured and conversations about physics can be brought up. This is what's measured and is done so out side of the context of the other two areas.  This is also the area where the *Motion and Structure of Martial Arts* is trained.  For many of us we learn this long before we understand why.  Most martial arts teacher spend little time about going through long debates and questions about why you stand or move a certain way.  Topics like this usually have short answers, then the student trains it until they are bored, then they train it again.  When students ask how many times they must train it the teacher may answer "Until I tell you to stop."  To this day none of my teachers have said stop, so I still train stuff I started off with as a beginner.

*Human Behavior* = How the techniques are designed to exploit human reactions to a variety of Martial Arts Motion.  Human behavior is so reliable that we can predict with certainty how a person reacts when a jab is thrown straight for the face, to the left of the face, above the face, and too the right of the face.  We also know at which skill level these various reactions begin to change.  Beginners react differently than Advance practitioners.  People who spar react differently than people who don't spar.  This is a key component (I think more important than Body Mechanics) to the Applications of Martial Arts.  If you know how and when your opponent will attack or defend then you can exploit that effort and find weaknesses and openings.  Physics don't measure this area.

*Human Biology* = The physical and emotional and mental construction of a person.  This often identifies weak and strong areas of each and how to exploit or avoid them.  Techniques are usually designed to flow in a way that is most effective in striking the weaknesses of these areas.

Examples: techniques that target the lower part of the face avoid the hardest parts of the skull. Attacking without emotion vs attacking with anger or fear.  All of these things make up the Human Biology.  Quotes like "be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself" reflect the mental state that some believe martial arts should be  in.  This will affect how you train and apply martial arts in a physical fight.

Using this equation: *Body Mechanics* + *Human Behavior* + *Human Biology* + *Fighting System* = *Martial Arts ,* means that Physics is only going to be able to Measure 1/4 of what makes a technique powerful or effective.  Getting hit with a hard punch when you are expecting it, is not the same as getting hit with a hard punch when you are least able to defend against it.  

In a regular boxing match, the most effective punches ares often not the most powerful punches. We can see evidence of this in the punch count.  We also see exception with knockouts from glancing blows, where a significantly lighter punch or kick KO's someone.  There's just a lot to Martial Arts and Physics is a small part of it which is why many people can learn martial arts and be powerful in without knowing physics.

I was curious about Atlas (the robot that runs and does flips)  How much of it is actually using physics?  I was surprised to find this quote:

 "Atlas's control software doesn't explicitly tell the robot how to move its joints, but rather it employs mathematical models of the underlying physics of the robot's body and how it interacts with the environment. Atlas relies on its whole body to balance and move."


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

krowe said:


> You covered a lot of ground with that opening statement haha. One that I did not see mentioned is more of a way to augment the power in your strikes using the stretch reflex. Its not really a stand alone method but a way to use your body like a rubber band. There is a physiological effect that occurs due to small organelles in between the muscles where they become ligament. This organelle creates a stretch reflex when the muscle has been stretched to a certain point, causing it to contract. If you are in good control of your kinetic chain you can execute your movments (in general) and as such, strikes, to the timing of the stretch reflex. This is a good way to at a snap to your strikes. It can be combined with the torque to produce a lot of power. So basically its the bodies natural elasticity combined with good timing during sequential movments. Catch the "bounce point" and carry the force through to the next movement to accelerate. There are a lot of sneaky ways to use this to change up the tempo and throw your opponent off too. Works with grappling too. Except you force your opponent to resist a press or pull which causes them to reflexively contract tgeir muscles to resist (if they fall for it) and a beat later the muscles will relax and create an opening. There are some funky tricks you cna do with breath as well.


Nice post and on topic. Thanks!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> And yet the vast vast vast majority of folks lack the background in physics, biology, chemistry and likely some other topics, to do so.  And we are able to discuss it quite adequately without doing so.


I am not an engineer. And yet, I somehow manage to talk rationally, coherently, and reasonably about car stuff. I even manage to do most of the work on them myself.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> there is no such thing as a "complete science". Science is a method of discovering truths about our universe and everything in it and until the grand unified theory is discovered there will always be more questions than we have answers for. However, certain principles are fully understood. Understanding these principals fully and accurately can help you find answers to questions such as "how do I cause maximum damage with a punch under specific circumstances". Surface level; Hit hard. For those that surface level isn't satisfying enough you gotta go deeper.  I agree and disagree. “fully understood” rarely applies. I am asking individuals to describe how they go about creating the movement. You can describe that however you like. I will repeat myself here. The human is not so simple, we are not all the same. Yes a lever is a lever and all three lever systems are found in the body.  Is your humerus the exact same as mine? No. Is your nutrition, age, size, mind or anything exactly the same as mine? No. My point is that without measuring each individual for every known facet that applies to moving your human around in some certain way, there is no way to apply your rubric to this topic of discussion. Similarly, one can not simply dismiss how an individual experiences that movement without a lot more info on that particular individual. Under the circumstances of this forum discussion, anecdotal responses hold nearly the same water as any other response because we simply don’t have solid information on the subjects that respond. I do appreciate your opinion and input to this discussion. Thank you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> there is no such thing as a "complete science". Science is a method of discovering truths about our universe and everything in it and until the grand unified theory is discovered there will always be more questions than we have answers for. However, certain principles are fully understood. Understanding these principals fully and accurately can help you find answers to questions such as "how do I cause maximum damage with a punch under specific circumstances". Surface level; Hit hard. For those that surface level isn't satisfying enough you gotta go deeper.


Sorry, I wrote my response in your quote. Typing without looking…


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I am not an engineer. And yet, I somehow manage to talk rationally, coherently, and reasonably about car stuff. I even manage to do most of the work on them myself.


You must have old cars because I can’t find a thing I recognize in new ones.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You must have old cars because I can’t find a thing I recognize in new ones.


New cars are no more difficult to maintain or modify than old ones. In many ways, they are easier.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2021)

krowe said:


> You covered a lot of ground with that opening statement haha. One that I did not see mentioned is more of a way to augment the power in your strikes using the stretch reflex. Its not really a stand alone method but a way to use your body like a rubber band. There is a physiological effect that occurs due to small organelles in between the muscles where they become ligament. This organelle creates a stretch reflex when the muscle has been stretched to a certain point, causing it to contract. If you are in good control of your kinetic chain you can execute your movments (in general) and as such, strikes, to the timing of the stretch reflex. This is a good way to at a snap to your strikes. It can be combined with the torque to produce a lot of power. So basically its the bodies natural elasticity combined with good timing during sequential movments. Catch the "bounce point" and carry the force through to the next movement to accelerate. There are a lot of sneaky ways to use this to change up the tempo and throw your opponent off too. Works with grappling too. Except you force your opponent to resist a press or pull which causes them to reflexively contract tgeir muscles to resist (if they fall for it) and a beat later the muscles will relax and create an opening. There are some funky tricks you cna do with breath as well.


Thanks for your detailed explanation.  At first I was totally lost and didn't understand anything until I got to the end, then I was like.   "Oh I know what you are talking about now."

A lot of times we see the same thing but describe it differently and that often gives the assumption that we are talking or looking at 2 different things. It helped a lot when you gave an application example.
.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> It is quantifiable. Mental states are literally the entirety of certain fields of neuro science.
> 
> yes, and as a result you can explore where those measurements come and why they are what they are from which will lead to more questions, and ultimately more questions on top of that ad infinitum. And from that we learn more and get better at things.
> 
> Regardless of mental state, biomechanics is the same. A lever is a lever and feeling pumped up doesn't change that. Heart is an organ and spirit is a vague nonsense descriptor for a complex mental state of which can be measured. Everything you have listed here, individually, is quantifiable in some regard except individual behavior (as far as I know). But that's not my point. My point is that developing "power" does nothing to help the end goal of increasing damage done to an opponent the basic mechanics of which are already fully understood individually. If you want to explore ways of increasing damage to an opponent then first figuring out what causes that helps. A lot goes into making an overall effective fighter and it is super complex and made of hundreds of parts, but the question of how to get more power is not complex. Does it matter? To most people, no. For others clearly and accurately defining terms can help to find the answers they are looking for. If you want to know which technique has the highest potential for damage, then understanding the mechanics of the human body in an accurate way can help find that answer. You don't need to know it to be a good fighter, you don't even need to know it to be a good coach. But if you ask the question "why" and you want to explore the why then correctly identifying terms helps.


The biomechanics and quality of efficiency is affected by a great number of things, otherwise why do two similar sized people punch harder or faster than each other? If Dirty Dog and I were twins, he might still have a better grasp of how to apply his levers( or wrenches) than I do. If I missed two nights of sleep, i will certainly have an obvious deficit In my proprioceptive capability, which would definitely affect my mechanical efficiency. There are just too many factors involved to get to a useful and applicable equation that fits each human at any given moment.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> New cars are no more difficult to maintain or modify than old ones. In many ways, they are easier.


Perhaps I have revealed my weakness here. One of many I suppose.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The Mizong system also uses this principle a lot. The circular movement before a straight punch can confuse your opponent a lot.


I'm thinking if I've seen something similar in MMA.  Where small movement's power larger ones.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Perhaps I have revealed my weakness here. One of many I suppose.


Realistically, building them is no different. Select part, put it in place, and secure.
But anyone who thinks tuning a carburetor is easier than EFI is just wrong.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Realistically, building them is no different. Select part, put it in place, and secure.
> But anyone who thinks tuning a carburetor is easier than EFI is just wrong.


What’s an EFI? Just kidding.


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## mograph (Dec 2, 2021)

I'm not sure how easy it is to measure and account for my ability to resist pushes while standing on one leg.  A free-body diagram can't account for it. 

An important quality for understanding science is understanding its limits.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm thinking if I've seen something similar in MMA.  Where small movement's power larger ones.


I always think the vertical downward back fist is not powerful enough to knock my opponent down. But if I use wrist grip (small circle) to set up back fist (large circle), That back fist can be powerful.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always think the vertical downward back fist is not powerful enough to knock my opponent down. But if I use wrist grip (small circle) to set up back fist (large circle), That back fist can be powerful.


Vertical downward back fist? I am only guessing here, but is that what I call a hanging punch? Do you have a picture or video for people like me that don’t know what that is?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always think the vertical downward back fist is not powerful enough to knock my opponent down. But if I use wrist grip (small circle) to set up back fist (large circle), That back fist can be powerful.


It varies.  If you are using at at the beginning to help generate power then you can use it to deflect or delay your opponent's attack.  In my experience people don't know what to make of it so it delays the attack, but I've also used it to deflect in coming punches as well.  This case it's not going to be very strong.  But if it's at the end of a power generation then it's strong enough to break someone's collar bone or facial bone.

I like using it and have a lot of success with it.  I'll put it this way.  There have been numerous times where I had to pull the power from it, in order to prevent from hurting my sparring partner.

By the way I agree with your statement.  just adding some more detail to it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It varies.  If you are using at at the beginning to help generate power then you can use it to deflect or delay your opponent's attack.  In my experience people don't know what to make of it so it delays the attack, but I've also used it to deflect in coming punches as well.  This case it's not going to be very strong.  But if it's at the end of a power generation then it's strong enough to break someone's collar bone or facial bone.
> 
> I like using it and have a lot of success with it.  I'll put it this way.  There have been numerous times where I had to pull the power from it, in order to prevent from hurting my sparring partner.
> 
> By the way I agree with your statement.  just adding some more detail to it.


Do you have a video or picture of this punch just so I know what you are referring to? Please and thank you.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Vertical downward back fist? I am only guessing here, but is that what I call a hanging punch? Do you have a picture or video for people like me that don’t know what that is?


I  don't know what a hanging punch is.  The veritcal downward back fist uses sinking /contraction /whiping motions to generate the power.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Vertical downward back fist? I am only guessing here, but is that what I call a hanging punch? Do you have a picture or video for people like me that don’t know what that is?


Here is a vertical back fist. He also uses a small circle (wrist grab) to generate a large circle (back fist).

https://i.postimg.cc/Dzn8Gj2t/Adam-Hsu-back-fist.gif


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Do you have a video or picture of this punch just so I know what you are referring to? Please and thank you.







This is one example.  Here the back fists is aimed at the face. Do this same motion in the mirror and attack your reflection on the under the eye.  Then use the same motion to attack your reflections collar bone and you'll feel that downward strike developing

most people think of them as quick pops, but you can get some serious power out of them so long as you know how to get the power started.  In the video.  Pulling back the arm starts the power generation.  Do this combo right foot forward.  Right straight punch - left straight punch - Vertical down back fist.  

As you are pulling the left punch is extended that back fist should be at a point where it's "powered."  Now try the same thing with just the back fist.  No power generation.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Vertical downward back fist? I am only guessing here, but is that what I call a hanging punch? Do you have a picture or video for people like me that don’t know what that is?


A strike with the back of the fist. With the hand moving vertically from top to bottom.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vertical+backfist

As always, there are variations and options concerning the fine details of the technique. But basically, this.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I  don't know what a hanging punch is.  The veritcal downward back fist uses sinking /contraction /whiping motions to generate the power.


Sounds like different name for same punch. does it look like hanging your hat on a hook?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a vertical back fist. He also uses a small circle (wrist grab) to generate a large circle (back fist).
> 
> https://i.postimg.cc/Dzn8Gj2t/Adam-Hsu-back-fist.gif


Yes very similar. Palm up?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> A strike with the back of the fist. With the hand moving vertically from top to bottom.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vertical+backfist
> 
> As always, there are variations and options concerning the fine details of the technique. But basically, this.


Similar to my hanging punch. Thank you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is one example.  Here the back fists is aimed at the face. Do this same motion in the mirror and attack your reflection on the under the eye.  Then use the same motion to attack your reflections collar bone and you'll feel that downward strike developing
> 
> most people think of them as quick pops, but you can get some serious power out of them so long as you know how to get the power started.  In the video.  Pulling back the arm starts the power generation.  Do this combo right foot forward.  Right straight punch - left straight punch - Vertical down back fist.
> 
> As you are pulling the left punch is extended that back fist should be at a point where it's "powered."  Now try the same thing with just the back fist.  No power generation.


Ok. It is very similar to my hanging punch. Some slight differences.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is one example.  Here the back fists is aimed at the face. Do this same motion in the mirror and attack your reflection on the under the eye.  Then use the same motion to attack your reflections collar bone and you'll feel that downward strike developing
> 
> most people think of them as quick pops, but you can get some serious power out of them so long as you know how to get the power started.  In the video.  Pulling back the arm starts the power generation.  Do this combo right foot forward.  Right straight punch - left straight punch - Vertical down back fist.
> 
> As you are pulling the left punch is extended that back fist should be at a point where it's "powered."  Now try the same thing with just the back fist.  No power generation.


Thank you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is one example.  Here the back fists is aimed at the face. Do this same motion in the mirror and attack your reflection on the under the eye.  Then use the same motion to attack your reflections collar bone and you'll feel that downward strike developing
> 
> most people think of them as quick pops, but you can get some serious power out of them so long as you know how to get the power started.  In the video.  Pulling back the arm starts the power generation.  Do this combo right foot forward.  Right straight punch - left straight punch - Vertical down back fist.
> 
> As you are pulling the left punch is extended that back fist should be at a point where it's "powered."  Now try the same thing with just the back fist.  No power generation.


I like to combo this with an overhead punch. I also use it in a 10 punch combination with cross steps and spin outs for training. Thank you for the detail.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sounds like different name for same punch. does it look like hanging your hat on a hook?


No, not at all...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, not at all...


Lol not that way. Impossible for me to describe it accurately without 2 paragraphs of detail. Anyway I doubt anyone cares or wants to read that.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Hilarious! 


Dirty Dog said:


> No, not at all...


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## J. Pickard (Dec 3, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The biomechanics and quality of efficiency is affected by a great number of things, otherwise why do two similar sized people punch harder or faster than each other? If Dirty Dog and I were twins, he might still have a better grasp of how to apply his levers( or wrenches) than I do. If I missed two nights of sleep, i will certainly have an obvious deficit In my proprioceptive capability, which would definitely affect my mechanical efficiency. There are just too many factors involved to get to a useful and applicable equation that fits each human at any given moment.


yes, human bodies are variable. Nobody is debating that. But the basic mechanics of HOW never changes (so far). But still not my point. My point is that properly identifying what it is you are trying to learn can help you achieve it faster. There is a reason many (most) of the top athletes and professional sports teams hire kinematics scientists and look to the field of sports sciences to find a way to improve their team/athletes overall performance. This isn't possible unless the terms of the question are properly asked. Take for example the study out of University of Tehran that I mentioned in a previous post. What they were focusing on in that study is broken down into a few parts: 1. what punch has the highest potential of impact force in boxing? 2. Why? 3. How can we train this punch to be the most efficient (deliver highest impact force consistently) for any boxer? In this study they found out the best way(s) to make a hook punch deliver the highest impact force under given circumstances and determined the most effective forms of exercise and training to accomplish such a goal. This doesn't mean it is the most effective always. It does not take into account size of the target vs size of the puncher. It doesn't take into account reaction time or experience or muscle fatigue. It is looking only at how to, in basic terms, hit the hardest. That was the topic of this thread, the mechanics of delivering "power" i.e. hit harder. This is a topic studied extensively in sports sciences but in the case of a punch or strike or kick, power is not the accurate term to define what we are trying to accomplish.  I am suggesting, maybe in a poorly worded fashion, that it can be easier to understand the basic principals of hitting harder if you define the terms more accurately to better understand what it means to hit harder, or as put her with more "power". I can accept that power here is a colloquialism and defining it in a literal sense is somewhat pedantic, but if you really want to understand something I would expect that means correctly understanding the definition of the terms used. You don't call a kick a foot strike (maybe you do?) even though it is exactly that because it isn't the correct term in most situations. If teaching someone how to do a basic front kick you don't say "lets practice foot strikes" you say "lets practice kicks" because it is the correct term. So when you say lets explore the "power" of strikes and are implying how to hit harder, the more accurate term is not the colloquial term "power". 
Also here is your equation for a person punching (image because not all text format is supported here)


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## Flying Crane (Dec 3, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> It is looking only at how to, in basic terms, hit the hardest. That was the topic of this thread, the mechanics of delivering "power" i.e. hit harder.



Ah, I see the problem.  I believe this is NOT the topic of this thread.  The topic is really about how does the engine under the hood work in an overall way.  Upon what methodologies is your martial system built, to make it effective.  Powerful punching is part of that picture, but not the strict topic of this thread.  The method that I described for my system, for example, is effective in building powerful punches, but can be used in application of joint locks, throwing, displacing an opponent from their position, etc.  

So we are looking at a larger picture than just powerful punches.  This is why I pointed out earlier that getting slogged down in the semantics and the definition of “power” in the context of physics isn’t useful.  We are not really interested in that kind of strict measurement or narrow use of the term.

And a little side note on your reference to the Tehran study.  Granted, I haven’t read it.  But you commented that they identified the “best” way to build power for certain punches.  My comment would be that at best, they identified the best way insofar as the methods with which they are familiar and have access to quality instruction.  I suspect there are methods from other martial systems that they would not have been in a position to test and compare.  I say this simply because there are way way too many methods out there to reasonably believe they would have experience with all of them.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> yes, human bodies are variable. Nobody is debating that. But the basic mechanics of HOW never changes (so far). But still not my point. My point is that properly identifying what it is you are trying to learn can help you achieve it faster. There is a reason many (most) of the top athletes and professional sports teams hire kinematics scientists and look to the field of sports sciences to find a way to improve their team/athletes overall performance. This isn't possible unless the terms of the question are properly asked. Take for example the study out of University of Tehran that I mentioned in a previous post. What they were focusing on in that study is broken down into a few parts: 1. what punch has the highest potential of impact force in boxing? 2. Why? 3. How can we train this punch to be the most efficient (deliver highest impact force consistently) for any boxer? In this study they found out the best way(s) to make a hook punch deliver the highest impact force under given circumstances and determined the most effective forms of exercise and training to accomplish such a goal. This doesn't mean it is the most effective always. It does not take into account size of the target vs size of the puncher. It doesn't take into account reaction time or experience or muscle fatigue. It is looking only at how to, in basic terms, hit the hardest. That was the topic of this thread, the mechanics of delivering "power" i.e. hit harder. This is a topic studied extensively in sports sciences but in the case of a punch or strike or kick, power is not the accurate term to define what we are trying to accomplish.  I am suggesting, maybe in a poorly worded fashion, that it can be easier to understand the basic principals of hitting harder if you define the terms more accurately to better understand what it means to hit harder, or as put her with more "power". I can accept that power here is a colloquialism and defining it in a literal sense is somewhat pedantic, but if you really want to understand something I would expect that means correctly understanding the definition of the terms used. You don't call a kick a foot strike (maybe you do?) even though it is exactly that because it isn't the correct term in most situations. If teaching someone how to do a basic front kick you don't say "lets practice foot strikes" you say "lets practice kicks" because it is the correct term. So when you say lets explore the "power" of strikes and are implying how to hit harder, the more accurate term is not the colloquial term "power".
> Also here is your equation for a person punching (image because not all text format is supported here)
> View attachment 27687​


Fully agree. 
Our son does data analytics for pro and college teams. Primarily in the evaluation of talent (ability). He has built some impressive models and the depth and breadth of what they capture is amazing to me. 
Determining the measurables and figuring out how they can tie together and how to weight them has been an evolving process for him. 
When we talk about it, where I am totally out of my element, he is very matter of fact that his job is to capture and coalesce data. Not what is done with the data, which you mentioned. He really gets the distribution (of labor) properties very well. 
He has said before that he sees his data mining becoming an established process at some point; where a coach/trainer can take the model and check the boxes an athlete does or does not meeet, determine a score and cull or continue to the next process with that athlete. 
This is essentially where the intangibles begin. As you said, two identical people can do a punch or kick or pass a football the same way (in essence) but have completely different results. His models go pretty far in to factoring this into account but, man oh man, does it take a lot of code and conditioning of the results. For example, in your equation, capturing the variables, deciding how to use them, and deciding how much affect each one has is difficult; especially when you are trying to factor out subjectivity. 

Bringing this back to MA's, I cannot count how many times I have pondered this when watching people do forms. You can watch them do individual moves with proficiency but when consolidated into a form they can just look wrong. However, identifying the 'why' is very tough sometimes. 
Sometimes this can translate to their sparring ability. While harder to translate the mechanical deficits, it can be easier to identify mental quirks or deficiencies. But factoring these elements out is much more difficult most often. 

It is a very deep well.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> We are not really interested in that kind of strict measurement or narrow use of the term.


Who are the "We" you are referring to? I find the mathematical breakdown fascinating. 


Flying Crane said:


> My comment would be that at best, they identified the best way insofar as the methods with which they are familiar and have access to quality instruction. I suspect there are methods from other martial systems that they would not have been in a position to test and compare. I say this simply because there are way way too many methods out there to reasonably believe they would have experience with all of them.


This is a different way of saying exactly what has been said using math. Just a semantic viewpoint of the same material.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 3, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> yes, human bodies are variable. Nobody is debating that. But the basic mechanics of HOW never changes (so far). But still not my point. My point is that properly identifying what it is you are trying to learn can help you achieve it faster. There is a reason many (most) of the top athletes and professional sports teams hire kinematics scientists and look to the field of sports sciences to find a way to improve their team/athletes overall performance. This isn't possible unless the terms of the question are properly asked. Take for example the study out of University of Tehran that I mentioned in a previous post. What they were focusing on in that study is broken down into a few parts: 1. what punch has the highest potential of impact force in boxing? 2. Why? 3. How can we train this punch to be the most efficient (deliver highest impact force consistently) for any boxer? In this study they found out the best way(s) to make a hook punch deliver the highest impact force under given circumstances and determined the most effective forms of exercise and training to accomplish such a goal. This doesn't mean it is the most effective always. It does not take into account size of the target vs size of the puncher. It doesn't take into account reaction time or experience or muscle fatigue. It is looking only at how to, in basic terms, hit the hardest. That was the topic of this thread, the mechanics of delivering "power" i.e. hit harder. This is a topic studied extensively in sports sciences but in the case of a punch or strike or kick, power is not the accurate term to define what we are trying to accomplish.  I am suggesting, maybe in a poorly worded fashion, that it can be easier to understand the basic principals of hitting harder if you define the terms more accurately to better understand what it means to hit harder, or as put her with more "power". I can accept that power here is a colloquialism and defining it in a literal sense is somewhat pedantic, but if you really want to understand something I would expect that means correctly understanding the definition of the terms used. You don't call a kick a foot strike (maybe you do?) even though it is exactly that because it isn't the correct term in most situations. If teaching someone how to do a basic front kick you don't say "lets practice foot strikes" you say "lets practice kicks" because it is the correct term. So when you say lets explore the "power" of strikes and are implying how to hit harder, the more accurate term is not the colloquial term "power".
> Also here is your equation for a person punching (image because not all text format is supported here)
> View attachment 27687​


This is very descriptive. I appreciate your efforts. I am not educated enough to really grasp this equation. I do want to say that what I was trying to get to isn’t how to strike harder. What I am interested in here is how each person describes how they experience or generate the energy that creates the motion that is expressed in the strike. I’m not looking for the best way, I not looking for how to strike harder. im interested in the feeling or sensation of how different people experience this, including you. Equations don’t tell me what you feel or what you experience. I’m not a great writer and I’m not highly educated so I’m doing the best I can to express what I am asking about. Thank you, I do enjoy reading your response, in as much as I am able to understand it.


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## J. Pickard (Dec 3, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> This is very descriptive. I appreciate your efforts. I am not educated enough to really grasp this equation. I do want to say that what I was trying to get to isn’t how to strike harder. What I am interested in here is how each person describes how they experience or generate the energy that creates the motion that is expressed in the strike. I’m not looking for the best way, I not looking for how to strike harder. im interested in the feeling or sensation of how different people experience this, including you. Equations don’t tell me what you feel or what you experience. I’m not a great writer and I’m not highly educated so I’m doing the best I can to express what I am asking about. Thank you, I do enjoy reading your response, in as much as I am able to understand it.


Well I seem to have misunderstood the point of your initial post. My mistake.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> So we are looking at a larger picture than just powerful punches.


Exactly  Which is why I wanted to focus on the movement of generating power.  The movement will always be constant and wouldn't need to take into consideration the many variables.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 3, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> This is very descriptive. I appreciate your efforts. I am not educated enough to really grasp this equation. I do want to say that what I was trying to get to isn’t how to strike harder. What I am interested in here is how each person describes how they experience or generate the energy that creates the motion that is expressed in the strike. I’m not looking for the best way, I not looking for how to strike harder. im interested in the feeling or sensation of how different people experience this, including you. Equations don’t tell me what you feel or what you experience. I’m not a great writer and I’m not highly educated so I’m doing the best I can to express what I am asking about. Thank you, I do enjoy reading your response, in as much as I am able to understand it.


My personal, non-scientifically researched opinion:  there is no way to reliably identify the “best” method for any of this.  There are simply too many variables between people and how they relate to methods and what their abilities are within those methods.  I suspect this issue is so prominent that at best, what can be determined is a comparison of how a single person performs when executing a variety of techniques.  Once you try to expand the sample size in the study in order to discover trends, the variables become extremely difficult to control for.  Issues like natural talent; raw strength that may or may not be relevant to one type of punch vs. another; the length and depth and type of training that a person has had in their martial history; the specific methodologies that they have trained, and how closely those methodologies relate to the common method being tested for; and a whole lot of etc. after that. 

I really believe these studies are problematic.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> My personal, non-scientifically researched opinion:  there is no way to reliably identify the “best” method for any of this.  There are simply too many variables between people and how they relate to methods and what their abilities are within those methods.


This is true. At best, it is possible to draw conclusions about some generalities, but specifics are too varied from one person to another.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> It is a very deep well.


Yeah but only when you are trying to measure things


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> My personal, non-scientifically researched opinion: there is no way to reliably identify the “best” method for any of this.


This reminds me of when I asked my  teacher how was he able to strike me so quickly and block me so quickly.  I asked him. "How do you react so quickly"  He said.  I don't react.  I've been leading you to where I want you to be and how I want you to punch.  

If you don't know this information.  Then your physics will make the assumption that there was an equation to your speed and if you can move at speed x then you can do the same thing.  Then they will develop a training program to make people faster.  All of this would be done without the consideration for the simple reality "It's easy to be quick when you know what's coming."


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## Flying Crane (Dec 3, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This reminds me of when I asked my  teacher how was he able to strike me so quickly and block me so quickly.  I asked him. "How do you react so quickly"  He said.  I don't react.  I've been leading you to where I want you to be and how I want you to punch.
> 
> If you don't know this information.  Then your physics will make the assumption that there was an equation to your speed and if you can move at speed x then you can do the same thing.  Then they will develop a training program to make people faster.  All of this would be done without the consideration for the simple reality "It's easy to be quick when you know what's coming."


Damn, I had a good set of thoughts written here and something blipped and it disappeared.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 3, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Well I seem to have misunderstood the point of your initial post. My mistake.


Nonetheless, I find your post fascinating and your input is welcome.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> My personal, non-scientifically researched opinion:  there is no way to reliably identify the “best” method for any of this.  There are simply too many variables between people and how they relate to methods and what their abilities are within those methods.  I suspect this issue is so prominent that at best, what can be determined is a comparison of how a single person performs when executing a variety of techniques.  Once you try to expand the sample size in the study in order to discover trends, the variables become extremely difficult to control for.  Issues like natural talent; raw strength that may or may not be relevant to one type of punch vs. another; the length and depth and type of training that a person has had in their martial history; the specific methodologies that they have trained, and how closely those methodologies relate to the common method being tested for; and a whole lot of etc. after that.
> 
> I really believe these studies are problematic.


To be clear, I do not think there is any mathematical equation that determines the 'best' MA method. There are formularies to determine the best average method. This is exactly where our training (styles and techniques) evolved from. 
We fail, we do it again. We fail again, we do it again figuring out a better way to do it. This is a physical form of analytics.


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## J. Pickard (Dec 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> To be clear, I do not think there is any mathematical equation that determines the 'best' MA method. There are formularies to determine the best average method. This is exactly where our training (styles and techniques) evolved from.
> We fail, we do it again. We fail again, we do it again figuring out a better way to do it. This is a physical form of analytics.


I don't think this is necessarily true for individual techniques. There is a definitive max value based on the variables put in. Meaning one person's max potential value is not necessarily the same as another person's max potential value. And there is definitely an optimal way to achieve this since our understanding of body mechanics is very thorough we can find one way that is better than another. For example, no matter who the person is, a punch that uses full hip rotation timed well with the punch will always have more force than a punch that uses only the arm from that same person.  That's actually how these equation works, all variables are undefined until you define them which is entirely dependent on the person. There is not one max output, and one person's max potential output can still be less than another persons 50% potential output. A child of  8 with perfect punching technique will likely never be able to hit as hard a a 250lb 6ft2 man that has terrible technique. But the method to maximize the output of force from the punch is necessarily the same for each.


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## J. Pickard (Dec 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> To be clear, I do not think there is any mathematical equation that determines the 'best' MA method. There are formularies to determine the best average method. This is exactly where our training (styles and techniques) evolved from.
> We fail, we do it again. We fail again, we do it again figuring out a better way to do it. This is a physical form of analytics.


and only now did I realize I think, once again, I misinterpreted your point. Just to clarify, are you saying there is no one best Martial art to develop technique? In that case I 100% agree. Each martial art with a similar goal (striking, grappling, etc) all usually try to train the same parts of the body for the same reason they just have different approaches. Karateka might hit makiwara or hand pads to develop penetrating strikes while a boxer would use a heavy bag for that purpose but both are developing the same thing just in a different way.


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## J. Pickard (Dec 3, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you don't know this information.  Then your physics will make the assumption that there was an equation to your speed and if you can move at speed x then you can do the same thing.  Then they will develop a training program to make people faster.  All of this would be done without the consideration for the simple reality "It's easy to be quick when you know what's coming."


Yep, that is an accurate assessment. there is more to being a good fighter than just having a hard and fast punch/kick but there definitely is an equation for speed, it's distance over time. And there definitely are training regimens for speed, I attended a boxing seminar on developing speed last year and it was a lot of fun. What you are referring to is reaction time (which can also be trained and quantified) and you are absolutely correct that your reaction time is faster when you already know what's coming. Very good points. Doesn't matter how hard you can punch if you never hit the target.


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## dvcochran (Dec 4, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> and only now did I realize I think, once again, I misinterpreted your point. Just to clarify, are you saying there is no one best Martial art to develop technique? In that case I 100% agree. Each martial art with a similar goal (striking, grappling, etc) all usually try to train the same parts of the body for the same reason they just have different approaches. Karateka might hit makiwara or hand pads to develop penetrating strikes while a boxer would use a heavy bag for that purpose but both are developing the same thing just in a different way.


Pretty much. I was just saying there is no 'perfect equation' to determine the best technique. We can capture the absolutes and constants but the intangibles are left up to the practitioner. To me this is not style specific.


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## tim po (Jan 4, 2022)

when i think of the mechanics of generating power in movement, martial or just labor, the first thing that comes to my mind is 'rooted agility'. by that i mean the ability to freely relocate the vertical center of my body without loosing integral structural connection to the ground. structural integrity is achieved with a posturally balanced skeleton. when the bones are in the right place, the muscles that support them remain within the range of their motion wherein they have highest capacity for forceful contraction (i call this the the 'powerband'). 
 an example:
 a slightly forward pelvic tilt, flattening the lumbar spine and engaging the rectus abdominus, and puts the ilio-psoas in a middle-range state, compared with a posture where the lumbar spine is arched and the pelvis tilted to the posterior. in this 'middle' range of it's potential, the psoas is very stable, and has optimal capability to generate force by contraction.  with a posterior tilt of the pelvis, the psoas is extended and has to travel a bit to reach that potential.   if you don't understand what i mean think of this: if you wanted to curl a heavy dumbell (why? idk) would it be easier to begin with your arm straight, elbow locked? or would bending your arm a bit make beginning the curl easier? the extreme ends of a muscles' range of motion are it's least powerful, generally, different athletic pursuits train a different range in different muscles.

next i think of my breathing. inhaling and exhaling, and rhythmic combinations of both. in breathing i find that i can release or build tension in my muscles, and that tension can be amplified, when the breath is compressed in various ways.  

i never really think about punching or kicking.  i don't think much about striking, at all. strikes happen on their own, where and with what is not something i have to think of.  if my feet are in the right place, if my body is in the right position, some bony protrusion or other is bound to interfere with his forward momentum.  i can 'hit' hard, sure, but they are already trying to hit me hard, i'd rather that force that they are working so hard to generate be what 'powers' the impact of my bones and their muscles,. whether or not that strike has force enough to do what i need it to do, depends on my rootedness, the structure of my skeleton, and the transition from a state of low-tension to a forceful contraction of my muscles at the moment of impact, then back to fluidity, all in one breath.

all of this of course implies that i still have my balance, that my center has not been taken from me, perhaps by a more skilled(or surprise) attack.   moving while on your back is still a matter of  rooted agility, and breathing is still a viable way to control the degree of fluidity or rigidity of your body. 

 those things are to me the root of power in martial movement.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 5, 2022)

tim po said:


> when i think of the mechanics of generating power in movement, martial or just labor, the first thing that comes to my mind is 'rooted agility'. by that i mean the ability to freely relocate the vertical center of my body without loosing integral structural connection to the ground. structural integrity is achieved with a posturally balanced skeleton. when the bones are in the right place, the muscles that support them remain within the range of their motion wherein they have highest capacity for forceful contraction (i call this the the 'powerband').
> an example:
> a slightly forward pelvic tilt, flattening the lumbar spine and engaging the rectus abdominus, and puts the ilio-psoas in a middle-range state, compared with a posture where the lumbar spine is arched and the pelvis tilted to the posterior. in this 'middle' range of it's potential, the psoas is very stable, and has optimal capability to generate force by contraction.  with a posterior tilt of the pelvis, the psoas is extended and has to travel a bit to reach that potential.   if you don't understand what i mean think of this: if you wanted to curl a heavy dumbell (why? idk) would it be easier to begin with your arm straight, elbow locked? or would bending your arm a bit make beginning the curl easier? the extreme ends of a muscles' range of motion are it's least powerful, generally, different athletic pursuits train a different range in different muscles.
> 
> ...


Really enjoyed your post, and how you worded it too. Especially this bit: "the ability to freely relocate the vertical center of my body without loosing integral structural connection to the ground".

Also just an annoying tidbit from me, you got the pelvic tilts switched around hehe. Tilt to the front/anterior pelvic tilt is like tipping the bowl to the front (arching the lumbar spine). Posterior/backward pelvic tilt is tipping the bowl to the back (flattening the lumbar spine).

And totally get what you mean about the particular lengthened or shortened muscle position being weakest. Enjoyed your thoughts


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## tim po (Jan 5, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Tilt to the front/anterior pelvic tilt is like tipping the bowl to the front (arching the lumbar spine). Posterior/backward pelvic tilt is tipping the bowl to the back (flattening the lumbar spine).



I'm constantly screwing up terminology of this nature, it's been so long since i sought to explain any of this in words, i am enjoying the challenge! thank you for the clarification.

i thought of something else i could mention, that relates to this rooted movement training, it is how i use a heavybag, generally. i have an 80lb bag, a heavy solid beast that knows only one thing in all the world; that is where it's center of gravity is, and it wants nothing but to remain exactly where it wants to rest from it's point of suspension. so, instead of punching and kicking it,(it doesn't punch back) what i get from it most is immediate honest feedback as to my rootedness and structural integrity. i move into the bag, making contact with it where i will ( i hang the bag low enough that my knees can make contact with the bottom of the bag), hips, shoulders, forearms, fists, etc, but mostly just moving my center of gravity into 'it's space' in a guarded formation. if i am solid in my movement and structure, the bag moves and i don't, if i am even the slightest bit off-balance or out of alignment, i feel it, whether it is a subtle nudge or if i am way off, the bag displaces me.

all of this represents a part of the overall concept of Irimi, the idea being to 'enter' the attack(without getting hit), using distance, angling and timing of movement to place your body where you can disrupt the opponents center(whether through structural disruption or pain-compliance) and maintain advantage over their ability to continue the attack. the initial contact can be strikes or punches or gentle redirection and subtle footwork that displaces the attackers center and provides advantage, but ultimately, whomever is stronger in structure and balance is going to be the one that gains advantage from the impact.

i want to clarify why i differentiate punching or kicking from striking, in terms.  i think of punches and kicks as strikes that begin from and immediately recoil to a neutral, guarded position. this is effective and sound fighting strategy and i am not dissing this method. how power is transferred through the body mechanics into these types of strikes is more complex, but was very thoroughly discussed earlier in the thread, no argument.
strikes can occur wherever contact is made, but these contact points will not be 'strikes' unless you are delivering power to these points via structural integrity,  contraction of the musculature, breath compression, etc. a strike can be effective from inches away from the target, if the whole body is behind it.

when i 'kick' nowadays, i more or less am taking a large 'step' into and through my target, exactly the way you would kick to break down a door. the power transfer is the same as if i step forward without lifting my foot to strike. what matters is that your center of gravity remains supported by the body's structure, and kicking a heavy bag this way does provide that feedback... unfortunately if you are doing it right, you may find it very difficult to prevent tearing the lag bolt out of the ceiling.  once upon a time, i had high kicks all day long, but i probably haven't lifted my foot higher than my waist in 20 years... so this is what i do now instead, again, not dissing the kicking styles of many martial arts, just not something i held onto, finding that other methods better suited my intentions..


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 5, 2022)

tim po said:


> when i think of the mechanics of generating power in movement, martial or just labor, the first thing that comes to my mind is 'rooted agility'. by that i mean the ability to freely relocate the vertical center of my body without loosing integral structural connection to the ground. structural integrity is achieved with a posturally balanced skeleton. when the bones are in the right place, the muscles that support them remain within the range of their motion wherein they have highest capacity for forceful contraction (i call this the the 'powerband').
> an example:
> a slightly forward pelvic tilt, flattening the lumbar spine and engaging the rectus abdominus, and puts the ilio-psoas in a middle-range state, compared with a posture where the lumbar spine is arched and the pelvis tilted to the posterior. in this 'middle' range of it's potential, the psoas is very stable, and has optimal capability to generate force by contraction.  with a posterior tilt of the pelvis, the psoas is extended and has to travel a bit to reach that potential.   if you don't understand what i mean think of this: if you wanted to curl a heavy dumbell (why? idk) would it be easier to begin with your arm straight, elbow locked? or would bending your arm a bit make beginning the curl easier? the extreme ends of a muscles' range of motion are it's least powerful, generally, different athletic pursuits train a different range in different muscles.
> 
> ...


Very well articulated. I like this post.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 5, 2022)

tim po said:


> I'm constantly screwing up terminology of this nature, it's been so long since i sought to explain any of this in words, i am enjoying the challenge! thank you for the clarification.
> 
> i thought of something else i could mention, that relates to this rooted movement training, it is how i use a heavybag, generally. i have an 80lb bag, a heavy solid beast that knows only one thing in all the world; that is where it's center of gravity is, and it wants nothing but to remain exactly where it wants to rest from it's point of suspension. so, instead of punching and kicking it,(it doesn't punch back) what i get from it most is immediate honest feedback as to my rootedness and structural integrity. i move into the bag, making contact with it where i will ( i hang the bag low enough that my knees can make contact with the bottom of the bag), hips, shoulders, forearms, fists, etc, but mostly just moving my center of gravity into 'it's space' in a guarded formation. if i am solid in my movement and structure, the bag moves and i don't, if i am even the slightest bit off-balance or out of alignment, i feel it, whether it is a subtle nudge or if i am way off, the bag displaces me.
> 
> ...


I knew what you meant. posterior vs anterior tilt.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2022)

tim po said:


> I'm constantly screwing up terminology of this nature, it's been so long since i sought to explain any of this in words, i am enjoying the challenge! thank you for the clarification.
> 
> i thought of something else i could mention, that relates to this rooted movement training, it is how i use a heavybag, generally. i have an 80lb bag, a heavy solid beast that knows only one thing in all the world; that is where it's center of gravity is, and it wants nothing but to remain exactly where it wants to rest from it's point of suspension. so, instead of punching and kicking it,(it doesn't punch back) what i get from it most is immediate honest feedback as to my rootedness and structural integrity. i move into the bag, making contact with it where i will ( i hang the bag low enough that my knees can make contact with the bottom of the bag), hips, shoulders, forearms, fists, etc, but mostly just moving my center of gravity into 'it's space' in a guarded formation. if i am solid in my movement and structure, the bag moves and i don't, if i am even the slightest bit off-balance or out of alignment, i feel it, whether it is a subtle nudge or if i am way off, the bag displaces me.
> 
> ...


Interesting way of using the heavy bag


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## letsplaygames (Jan 5, 2022)

Xingyiquan  has very distinct power generation. 

There are many layers to it: 

briefly..  

There is_ Deng Jing_ which is a hybrid of the standard power generation methodology seen in modern arts  (i.e. Driving off the back leg, torqing the hip etc...)   correct deng jing technique is to drive off the back leg and use the lead leg like a shock absorber, catching your forward momentum and at the point of farthest extension of the strike  (as if you were falling into/through your opponent...  The lead leg  I.e  "the shock absorber" kicks in and stops the fall,  while this is happening, you pull the rear leg up under you to maintain equilibrium. _ (If your not familiar with Xingyiquan this might not make sense, or if your not familiar with the Wu Xing (the five fists) which are designed around footwork of this nature, it also might not make sense 

On the Internet I see people demonstrating this a lot. (although looking clumsy and primitive... looking like they have little prowess while doing it.   _

Then there is:

And... Tang Jing:  Kind of like Jet fuel to the above methodology.  Rear leg moves first,  whole body compress over the spot the rear leg is moving too. (rear leg stomps "for a lack of better terminology"  whole body acts like one huge spring/shock absorber, propelling the bodies mass behind the stomp.  Again...  _(If your not familiar with Xingyiquan this might not make sense, or if your not familiar with the Wu Xing (the five fists) which are designed around footwork of this nature, it also might not make sense. 

I don't see people often demonstrating this on the internet. _

Both Deng and Tang Jing are used in strikes/punches, kicks and throws etc 

Xingyiquan also bases a lot of footwork (using the above methods for power generation ) around shuffles (worm stepping) and skipping (chicken stepping) 

I have not mention the Wu Xing (five fists) PI, Zuan, Beng, Pao & Heng and how each one has a unique power generation designed around Teng & deng Jing.  

Anyway it pretty unique stuff... Just like other internal arts ... people get lost in the weeds with these methods and end up being a joke when it comes to having prowess.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Xingyiquan  has very distinct power generation.
> 
> There are many layers to it:
> 
> ...


Hmm fascinating!

I've been curious about this stomp of the rear leg as we explored it a little in training... would you say it's more for downward directed strikes (eg downward elbows or hammer fists) or applicable to forward directed ones too (eg straight punches)?

I'm trying to understand the purpose of the stomp a bit better (we only explored it briefly before our end of year break). In terms of just shuffling forward with the front leg then rear leg following (and doing a punch), would you say there's a disadvantage to sliding/dragging that rear leg up vs. lifting it up and stomping upon the punch? (In terms of power generation)

I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense haha, it's late XD


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## letsplaygames (Jan 6, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Hmm fascinating!
> 
> I've been curious about this stomp of the rear leg as we explored it a little in training... would you say it's more for downward directed strikes (eg downward elbows or hammer fists) or applicable to forward directed ones too (eg straight punches)?
> 
> ...


Newton’s third law “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction” is behind the purpose of the “stomp”. (Again for a lack of better terminology… because it’s not exactly a stomp) 

It’s a power amplifier.

Body mass in motion, the stomp causes an equal reaction of kinetic  force bouncing off the floor, which you direct into the target.  You have 
to be in motion. Can be up or down, generally has to be linear up or down in function though. 

Shuffle or skip toward a heavy bag, raise the lead leg of the ground, stay in motion, project the kick through the bag, use your mass to propel the kick. You are doing it right when the rear leg slides up underneath you to keep you upright. At first you will want push the bag with the kick, (which is a tactic) but when you learn to strike with the kick… refine it, where there is no telegraph… then ask yourself do you see a disadvantage with shuffling.   Would you want to be on the receiving end of your kick?   You might, might not… if your doing that kick right…  I wouldn’t…  

so no I never seen a disadvantage to worm stepping (shuffle stepping) or skipping (chicken stepping) Xingyiquan by its very nature uses what western boxing calls “long rhythm” i.e linear back and forth, in and out… not “short rhythm” i.e lateral side to side movement….
Shuffle stepping and Skipping go hand in hand with Long rhythm


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Xingyiquan  has very distinct power generation.
> 
> There are many layers to it:
> 
> ...


Another bridge pops up.  

Deng Kiu is the stabilizing/settling bridge.


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## dvcochran (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Newton’s third law “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction” is behind the purpose of the “stomp”. (Again for a lack of better terminology… because it’s not exactly a stomp)
> 
> It’s a power amplifier.
> 
> ...


Great post. But boxing commonly uses the aide to side motions you mention. Not as much in power generation as linear movement however.


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## tim po (Jan 6, 2022)

would anybody else say that there tends to be a big difference in how 'rooting' in motion is executed between Chinese martial arts (in general, i can think of exceptions, like perhaps Wing Chun) and Japanese/Korean martial arts? my sense is that the latter tend more towards shifting the weight between the feet in a more linear, direct way, feet staying close to or even in contact with the ground, where as in Chinese kung fu  the weight shifts by rising up and straight back down, making it more suitable for (as previously discussed) slippery floors and uneven terrain? this is something i have observed, but could just be how i have perceived things.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 6, 2022)

tim po said:


> would anybody else say that there tends to be a big difference in how 'rooting' in motion is executed between Chinese martial arts (in general, i can think of exceptions, like perhaps Wing Chun) and Japanese/Korean martial arts? my sense is that the latter tend more towards shifting the weight between the feet in a more linear, direct way, feet staying close to or even in contact with the ground, where as in Chinese kung fu  the weight shifts by rising up and straight back down, making it more suitable for (as previously discussed) slippery floors and uneven terrain? this is something i have observed, but could just be how i have perceived things.


I cannot speak to what others do,  or what is done in non-Chinese methods, but in terms of my practice in the Chinese arts, and what else I have seen, I would say that I do not agree with this.


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## tim po (Jan 6, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I cannot speak to what others do,  or what is done in non-Chinese methods, but in terms of my practice in the Chinese arts, and what else I have seen, I would say that I do not agree with this.


i have instruction in all three, but nowhere near mastery of anything. what i do now most certainly reflects the influence of many arts, but particularly from Japan, Korea and China. i just feel like when practicing outdoors in wild terrain, the movements of Five Animals Kung Fu is much more adaptable and efficient for a subtle difference in how the center is kept, in motion.

 Kung Fu Wang posted about the infinite symbol(i looked but this thread is long and i couldn't find it again) and about compression and release, drawing power from and returning force to the earth.  I noticed this in several Chinese arts I have practiced, but damned if I can explain it! the way the root spirals into the ground in one heel and force wells up in the ball of the other foot, and vise versa, meanwhile this same motion is occurring in different planes with the movement of the limbs...i feel i would be much more capable of generating power in my movement hopping from rock to rock in a stream using Kung Fu, then i would using any other arts I've studied.

I never found this precise 'way' of controlling my center in movement in the Japanese and Korean arts, but never felt a lack of rooted power, either.. it is more like 'gripping' the earth with your feet and dragging it backwards behind you (aka moving forward).  very fast and powerful, but better suited for more even ground.
just my observation,, just that there are so many different ways to use the force.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 6, 2022)

tim po said:


> would anybody else say that there tends to be a big difference in how 'rooting' in motion is executed between Chinese martial arts (in general, i can think of exceptions, like perhaps Wing Chun) and Japanese/Korean martial arts? my sense is that the latter tend more towards shifting the weight between the feet in a more linear, direct way, feet staying close to or even in contact with the ground, where as in Chinese kung fu  the weight shifts by rising up and straight back down, making it more suitable for (as previously discussed) slippery floors and uneven terrain? this is something i have observed, but could just be how i have perceived things.


I don’t understand the question or the description of rising up and straight back down. These things are very difficult to describe in general. If I assume that I know what you mean, I would say I don’t agree with your assessment of what is happening in my experience regarding CMA outside of the ability to move on a slippery floor, which is how I have trained for the entirety.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 6, 2022)

tim po said:


> would anybody else say that there tends to be a big difference in how 'rooting' in motion is executed between Chinese martial arts (in general, i can think of exceptions, like perhaps Wing Chun) and Japanese/Korean martial arts? my sense is that the latter tend more towards shifting the weight between the feet in a more linear, direct way, feet staying close to or even in contact with the ground, where as in Chinese kung fu  the weight shifts by rising up and straight back down, making it more suitable for (as previously discussed) slippery floors and uneven terrain? this is something i have observed, but could just be how i have perceived things.


I should also say that how I perceive it is only relevant to me. How you perceive it is also relevant to me.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 7, 2022)

tim po said:


> would anybody else say that there tends to be a big difference in how 'rooting' in motion is executed between Chinese martial arts (in general, i can think of exceptions, like perhaps Wing Chun) and Japanese/Korean martial arts? my sense is that the latter tend more towards shifting the weight between the feet in a more linear, direct way, feet staying close to or even in contact with the ground, where as in Chinese kung fu  the weight shifts by rising up and straight back down, making it more suitable for (as previously discussed) slippery floors and uneven terrain? this is something i have observed, but could just be how i have perceived things.


I would assume there's no one way to root that would classify a system.  I'm sure most system vary depending on the technique used and the situation at the moment an effort is made to root.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would assume there's no one way to root that would classify a system.  I'm sure most system vary depending on the technique used and the situation at the moment an effort is made to root.


Gravity hits all by itself.


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## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2022)

tim po said:


> would anybody else say that there tends to be a big difference in how 'rooting' in motion is executed between Chinese martial arts (in general, i can think of exceptions, like perhaps Wing Chun) and Japanese/Korean martial arts? my sense is that the latter tend more towards shifting the weight between the feet in a more linear, direct way, feet staying close to or even in contact with the ground, where as in Chinese kung fu  the weight shifts by rising up and straight back down, making it more suitable for (as previously discussed) slippery floors and uneven terrain? this is something i have observed, but could just be how i have perceived things.


By definition, what is the stated purpose of rooting?


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## geezer (Jan 7, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> By definition, what is the stated purpose of rooting?


Truffles.

You must root to get the truffles.


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## tim po (Jan 7, 2022)

dude geezer seriously do you ever post anything that isn't a snide comment meant only to degrade any thread you post on? why don't you and oily dragon go kibitz some youtube videos together or something. 

lotta cool people on here. wish i knew you ya, but i don't. too many assholes already though. think i'll just be my own *******. peace y'all


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2022)

tim po said:


> dude geezer seriously do you ever post anything that isn't a snide comment meant only to degrade any thread you post on? why don't you and oily dragon go kibitz some youtube videos together or something.
> 
> lotta cool people on here. wish i knew you ya, but i don't. too many assholes already though. think i'll just be my own *******. peace y'all


Well, that's a shame, and an odd way of perceiving it.

@geezer is a longtime and very well-respected member of this forum. Not only a wealth of knowledge, but I really enjoy and appreciate his hilarious sense of humour. It is certainly much needed, not only in this crazy time we find ourselves in in the world, but also to lighten up the sometimes insane seriousness this forum can venture into. To lighten things up, you know? It is by no means, from my perspective, degrading or snide.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 7, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Well, that's a shame, and an odd way of perceiving it.
> 
> @geezer is a longtime and very well-respected member of this forum. Not only a wealth of knowledge, but I really enjoy and appreciate his hilarious sense of humour. It is certainly much needed, not only in this crazy time we find ourselves in in the world, but also to lighten up the sometimes insane seriousness this forum can venture into. To lighten things up, you know? It is by no means, from my perspective, degrading or snide.


It's difficult to read humor on forums. When someone things another person is being negative, then it's probably good to:
1. read it once then walk away for an hou
2. come back and read it to see if it has the same tone.

It's also probably good to read it with a little emotional disconnect as well, at least until you know the person's personality better.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 7, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> By definition, what is the stated purpose of rooting?


Ask an Australian.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 8, 2022)

geezer said:


> Truffles.
> 
> You must root to get the truffles.


Just remember, truffle oil is never to be used to grill or sautee.  Finishing oil, only, and make sure it's real truffle oil and not flavored olive oil.


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## BrendanF (Jan 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ask an Australian.



As an Australian I heartily endorse this message.


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## dvcochran (Jan 8, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's difficult to read humor on forums. When someone things another person is being negative, then it's probably good to:
> 1. read it once then walk away for an hou
> 2. come back and read it to see if it has the same tone.
> 
> It's also probably good to read it with a little emotional disconnect as well, at least until you know the person's personality better.


For example, I was sincerely asking about rooting since I am not familiar with it using this wording. I wanted to be certain I am thinking of the same thing.
I figured someone would get around to answering the question after everyone had a little fun.

This forum needs fresh minds and input. I thought @tim po had given some quality insight. I hope he/she sticks around.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 8, 2022)

tim po said:


> dude geezer seriously do you ever post anything that isn't a snide comment meant only to degrade any thread you post on? why don't you and oily dragon go kibitz some youtube videos together or something.
> 
> lotta cool people on here. wish i knew you ya, but i don't. too many assholes already though. think i'll just be my own *******. peace y'all


Hopefully you stick around. I am guilty of joking around a lot and sometimes roughly. I like your contributions, whether people agree with you is immaterial.


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## letsplaygames (Jan 8, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's difficult to read humor on forums. When someone things another person is being negative, then it's probably good to:
> 1. read it once then walk away for an hou
> 2. come back and read it to see if it has the same tone.
> 
> It's also probably good to read it with a little emotional disconnect as well, at least until you know the person's personality better.


(In no way referring to you...  Just tacking on to your post)

Sometimes it isn't humor .... Very often....

It's people that have nothing to add of any value. They just troll in sublime ways.   Usually the types seem to think a forum has some form of Hierarchy/Hegemony.... LMAO,   I've often wondered: Having no face to face physical contact,  Is that there true personality?  

Or with the age of the internet have they lost the way comportment? 

Seen it with moderators too.. (probably more than anyone else)  

Often sites like this are ego salons... where people post just to have their egos messaged.  Myself personally,  I come and go on forums like this.  To me forums and the personalities mean nothing, it's the internet.  

*Everybody is a Kung Fu Master on the Internet *


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ask an Australian.


ha ha ha.. I was waiting to see when that was coming up. I thought Drop Bear would have been the first to say it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> For example, I was sincerely asking about rooting since I am not familiar with it using this wording. I wanted to be certain I am thinking of the same thing.
> I figured someone would get around to answering the question after everyone had a little fun.
> 
> This forum needs fresh minds and input. I thought @tim po had given some quality insight. I hope he/she sticks around.


The best way I can explain rooting. Is what we do to maintain balance and stability. In general it's what we do to stay in a standing position while striking and grappling.  Most people reduce it to things like "you can't push me from this spot" type thinking. But for me all of that is incorrect.

If I say. That no one can do a grappling take down on me when I'm using horsestance.  The first thing that will come to people's minds is my standing in a horse stance, not moving, and looking like a dunce.  But in reality rooting is not static, it's active.  So the definition in the first paragraph is more accurate to what is meant by rooting.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Sometimes it isn't humor .... Very often....


You are correct.  But as I've gotten to know people in this forum, it's easier for me to know when it is and when it isn't. The downside is that new people don't have that exposure to us yet.

It's sort of like joking with customers.  It's better to joke with the customers who know you than the customers who don't know you. 

Other times it's like you stated.  It isn't humor.  @Tony Dismukes does a good job with his posts.  I often don't expect a quick response from Tony. I always get the feeling that he's reading a post more than once and being more measured about what he posts than what most of us are.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Having no face to face physical contact, Is that there true personality?
> 
> Or with the age of the internet have they lost the way comportment?


Depends on how accurate they are with reading what other people post.  Sometimes I read posts incorrectly which is why I give things a second read.  But when I see repeat behaviors then I know it's not me, it's them.

The Internet gives us the opportunity to be who we really are, and it's not pretty lol.



Paul Calugaru said:


> Seen it with moderators too.. (probably more than anyone else)


Moderators are probably people who have been around for a long time.  They are also probably less patient than the rest.  I'm only saying this now because I feel that I'm becoming more like this.

I've done so much kung fu explaining to people who tend to resist trying to understand, that I've become short patience with having conversations with them.  Not because it's personal but because I'm tired of explaining.  I'm starting to withdraw from certain topics because I know it'll just be me getting short tempered and irritated.  Right now it's not easy because I still want to jump in the conversation and "bust heads." But I'm just freaking tired of all the explaining

So when the Moderators snap, I can now understand why they do.  I know sometimes they may have their jerk moments, but that's just being human.

Think of it this way.  If I have had verbal arguments and have had times where I snapped at my wife.  If I do that with the person I  love, then don't expect me to be the better person in the forum. ha ha ha. 

Sometimes it's just good to just take that step back.  Wait an hour to respond on things that get us into an emotional response..  or don't.  ha ha ha.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Often sites like this are ego salons... where people post just to have their egos messaged. Myself personally, I come and go on forums like this. To me forums and the personalities mean nothing, it's the internet.


You are right.  But out of some of the other places I've been to this is one of the better places with some really good information.  Unfortunately it's like finding a diamond.  You'll have to deal with dirt and bust up some rocks before you find that diamond. 

Picture below is a guy digging for diamonds.  There's some good reliable information here. If you are willing to deal with the dirt and the rocks.


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## geezer (Jan 8, 2022)

tim po said:


> dude geezer seriously do you ever post anything that isn't a snide comment meant only to degrade any thread you post on? why don't you and oily dragon go kibitz some youtube videos together or something.
> 
> lotta cool people on here. wish i knew you ya, but i don't. too many assholes already though. think i'll just be my own *******. peace y'all


Sorry to offend. I blame_ Buka._ He is my role model!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's difficult to read humor on forums.


I also like to joke around. Sometime even my son won't know whether I was joking or not.

some of my favor jokes are:

A: My boyfriend hasn't contacted me for weeks. I'm worry about him.
B: You should always think positive. Your boyfriend probable is dead.

A: I love you!
B: I love me too.


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## geezer (Jan 8, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The best way I can explain rooting. Is what we do to maintain balance and stability. In general it's what we do to stay in a standing position while striking and grappling.  Most people reduce it to things like *"you can't push me from this spot"* type thinking. But for me all of that is incorrect.
> 
> If I say. That no one can do a grappling take down on me when I'm using horsestance.  The first thing that will come to people's minds is my standing in a horse stance, not moving, and looking like a dunce.  But in reality rooting is not static, it's active.  So the definition in the first paragraph is more accurate to what is meant by rooting.


I look at it a little differently. Rooting is _not_ synonymous with stability. It refers specifically to _static _stability. I guess I do look at _rooting _exactly as implied by metaphor of a strong, stable and deeply rooted tree. It can't be easily moved or knocked over. So yeah, pretty much the _you can't push me from this spot_ type thinking you mentioned above.

You see, I like to differentiate between _static_ and _dynamic_ stability.

_Static stability_ aligns pretty well with rooting as defined above although there is a lot more to it. There are a lot of ways to augment rooting, such as sinking your center, deepening your stance, refining your static balance, working to strong and flexible, not stiff and "brittle"  and adjusting your kinetic alignment, or structure and strength to flex and absorb the force you receive without getting knocked about.

_Dynamic stability_ on the other hand is the ability to maintain your balance and position while _moving _and not remaining rooted in place. If rooting is the stability or a stout old oak tree with deep, strong roots ...or a fighter in a deep horse with an powerful base, then dynamic stability is illustrated by the flowing stability of a bird in flight or a fighter stepping or even jumping as he executes a technique.

Interestingly, I find that all the martial arts I know of require a balance of both kinds of stability, sometimes within the same technique. So, in my core art of Wing Chun, for example, the stance work in our first form, _Siu Nim Tau_ is all about training static structure (even in an upright stance) through alignment and position, adduction of the legs, selective tension and relaxation of areas of the body and by sinking your center, etc.

Not until our second form, Chum Kiu is a measure of dynamic stability formally introduced. And traditionally, many instructors place extreme emphasis on static rooting in the first years of training. However, in practice, dynamic balance is also trained from the beginning through solo and paired drills involving steps, turns, and kicking.

Due to personal physical problems with my wobbly knees and frozen ankles, I have always struggled more with the static type of balance. But as a person who enjoyed kinetic, balance-oriented sports as a kid, things like skiing, skating, riding bikes ...even a unicycle, I have an easier time maintaining balance in motion ...the dynamic stuff. So while I may still struggle horribly to do SNT form on on leg (worse than most raw beginners) I do pretty well in "live drills" like chi-sau and sparring.

One thing that I have only come to appreciate after many years doing this stuff is that all stances,  our most _static stances _like _yee gee kim yeung ma_ (the well known pigeon-toed WC training stance or "narrow horse") is both static and dynamic at the same time.

In my particular lineage, our stance, our turning and even our stepping always employs _both _principles ...so when you receive force, you do not try to pretend that you are some kind of "rooted oak tree". Instead your static, rooted stance takes on dynamic qualities that enable you to absorb, resist, and even return the force you receive. I guess there really always is that hidden yin in the yang force and vice versa.

In other words... pretty much exactly what _Jow Ga_ was saying above.


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## geezer (Jan 8, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've done so much kung fu explaining to people who tend to resist trying to understand, that I've become short patience with having conversations with them.  ...*I'm just freaking tired of all the explaining.*


^^^^ This! _exactly_ how I feel sometimes ...especially when I'm tired or don't have a lot of time. A light-hearted joke is so much easier than a long, thoughtful explanation. So ..often that's the route I take.

Then sometimes people get offended (sorry Tim) and I feel all guilty  ...So, I actually took a bit of time to right a serious response about how I see rooting (see above). It's not by any means comprehensive (I'm no Chris Parker, mind you) but I hope it makes up for my snarky nature.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 8, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> (In no way referring to you...  Just tacking on to your post)
> 
> Sometimes it isn't humor .... Very often....
> 
> ...


You sound like you have some people in mind? I hope MY poor attempts at humor havent offended you or anyone else.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 8, 2022)

geezer said:


> Sorry to offend. I blame_ Buka._ He is my role model!


After rereading this, I really don’t see anything that even borders offensive. My feeling is that if people are going to post then they should be ready to critiqued, fact checked, questioned, etc. AND have a sense of humor.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> After rereading this, I really don’t see anything that even borders offensive. My feeling is that if people are going to post then they should be ready to critiqued, fact checked, questioned, etc. AND have a sense of humor.


Pretty much.
We can't course correct written tone in real time lol.  It's like we have to learn how to have a delayed emotional response. lol

It's no wonder why the big social media websites are such a battlefield. 

Edit:  I deleted a lot of stuff. I Got on my soap box and sounded like a grumpy old man complaining about social media. ha ha ha.


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## letsplaygames (Jan 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You sound like you have some people in mind? I hope MY poor attempts at humor havent offended you or anyone else.


Not me... I wouldn't have hit the like button on your comments if I was offended.  I don't think anyone can offend me on a  forum.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 9, 2022)

geezer said:


> ^^^^ This! _exactly_ how I feel sometimes ...especially when I'm tired or don't have a lot of time.


Nothing like being tired from other stuff, then provide an answer that any coach in Boxing, MMA, or any other fighting system would have given, only to have it discounted, invalidated, and reject simply because it came out of the mouth of a TMA teacher or practitioner.

How many times have you explained stuff like this in here and as a result you get resistance as if they want you to prove what you say is true. And the most frustrating thing about it is that this stuff is simple. It's not complicated. Pretty straight forward.  But when TMA guy/gal says it. Suddenly it needs proof.





Edit:  Then irony is that 6 or 7 months later.  They will come back with the proof through their own experience of what we were telling them.  I've seen people waste years of what could have been quality training simply because they didn't want to believe guys who have already been through it.


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