# Weapons in TSD



## Moo D (May 11, 2004)

It seems that weapons pop in and out of TSD depending on your federation. Some federations use many weapons within their curriculum whilst others use no weapon training at all. But all come under or from the Moo Duk Kwan family.

Personally in the federation I belong to there is no wepaons training at all in the curriculum until 4th Dan and above, when the knife is incorporated. However, I have seen many video clips on the net from TSD people showing weapon forms.

What are your experiences with weapons in TSD??? and do they originat from DJN Hwang and the MDK??

Regards,


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## glad2bhere (May 11, 2004)

Great Question! 

Since Hwang Kee was heavily influenced by the MYTBTJ and his Chinese training I, for one, would be intersted to know how he dealt with the weapons aspect regarding his art. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Moo D (May 11, 2004)

Bruce,

It seems that DJN Hwang used only the Kwon Bup section of the MYDBTJ in TSD. As all of the literature that he released over the past 60 years for TSD (SBD) only talked about Kwon Bup and Jok gi. There are no references to wepaons in either volume of Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do.

What interests me is where and why weapons have been introduced in many TSD (SBD) Curriculums??? and was this introduction doen by DJN Hwang himself more recently (before his sad passing)??

Regards,


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## glad2bhere (May 11, 2004)

I don't know if this will help but in Hapkido the use of weapons is advocated from three points of view. 

1.) All of Hapkido arts are bound by adherence to the Three Principles. As extensions of intent, weapons are likewise extensions of MThand techniques as well as the Three Principle. Since a weapon is nothing more than an amplifier of intent it can also amplify mistakes, imperfections and misconceptions about a persons' biomechanics. 

2.) Traditionally weapons have always held a higher place in training in Korean martial science and MT Hand material was in a support role. Now in modern times things have switched and its the MTHand thats the main concern and weapons are the adjunct.

3.) The Hapkido arts are presented as Mu-Do or a comprehensive array of related armed and unarmed techniques. People who represent Hapkido arts in this way strive to make sure that the traditional weapons are taught part and parcel of the apkido curriculum. The sad thing is that people who do not study the traditional weapons often introduce exotic weapons from other disciplines and other cultures. I see this as a bad trend for KMA. 

I think Hwang Kee needed to put a bit more emphasis on weapons in TSD, but maybe he hit his limits for resources, time, energy--- whatever--- and never quite got around to it.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## dosandojang (May 12, 2004)

Well, like I said earlier...The only weapon in our TSD/SBD Dojang is a Bo, and it hardly gets used. I really think it is Master specific. I do not think that DJN Hwang Kee used knives, sais, tonfas, spears, etc. If weapons are being used in TSD today, it most likely has to do with each Master's specific training....


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## Moo D (May 12, 2004)

I have seen KJN Lee, Kang Uk use a knife in demonstrations, both for one step, Hosinsul and Hyungs. Given that KJN Lee's only instructor was DJN Hwang then he must have been taught the use of the knife from him. I do agree that the only other weapon I have seen demonstrated is the Bo and that at only 4th Dan and above level.

I have wondered if the knife was incorporated by DJN Hwang from his Yang Family connection??

Regards,


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## kwanjang (May 12, 2004)

Greetings everyone:
Interesting thread.  I wonder how much tournaments have had to do with the introduction of weapons to arts that normally did not practice them?

I have seen a similar influx of Jiu Jitsu and Hap Ki Do style techniques in the self-defense rings of tournaments.  In fact, it is becoming hard to find a Japanese martial art that does not include Jiu Jitsu or a Korean art that does not do some form of Hap Ki Do in these events.

As I read over the posts in this thread and one of the other threads dealing with TSD weapons, I noticed one thing... Korean martial artists using Japanese terminology to describe their weapon (such as Bo, instead of Bong).  Seems to me a clear indication that some of the schools have adopted Japanese weapons into their Korean curriculum. 

What really breaks me up is when one of the young competitors (usually dressed in some star wars like outfit that preferrably glows in the dark) walks up, announces that he is going to perform the "traditional" so and so from his "traditional" martial art school, and then proceeds to perform something right out of some martial art flick he (or his Instructor) has seen.

I have also seen a panel of judges grade a performance of someone doing a sword from, give the performer nine point something scores, and never even noticing that the performer made all his cuts with the sword upside down because he forgot which way was the supposedly sharp side of his sword.  I'll give that with a straight sword it is not as easy to spot which way is up as with a curved blade, but Masters hand picked to judge a weapons competition not noticing?????


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## dosandojang (May 13, 2004)

Yes Kwang Jang Nim, they go by Bong (Long), Dang Bong (Short), etc. in Han Kuk Mu Ki Do (Traditional Korean Weapons)But in both of my Korean Dojangs, my Masters always called/call a Bong a Bo. Master Norris used to even teach us "Bo Forms" (when they should have been called: "Bong Hyung") as he called/calls them. I think you hit the nail on the head Sir....


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## kwanjang (May 13, 2004)

I suspect that the earlier use of the bong was mainly a result of heavy japanese influence, so it is no wonder that the names were Japanese.  Just as the word Korean Karate and Sensei are still used by many Korean practitioners.  We Western people don't seem to have the same hang ups about the past Korean/Japanese conflicts, and hence it was not a big deal to us.  I believe we have grown a lot since the early days, and I think many Korean style martial artists are now beginning to use Korean terminology.


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## dosandojang (May 13, 2004)

Great post Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman. I totally agree Sir!


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## Moo D (May 13, 2004)

Well Said Kwang Jang Nim, I agree totally as well!!


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## kwanjang (May 14, 2004)

One of the best tools we could have going for us to improve knowledge about terminology etc. is this platform.  Look at the many things this small group has already accomplished by simply sharing things and learning from one another.  I, for one, keep my white belt in my bag at all times, because I am always a student.  I have learned a lot from you folks already.


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## Makalakumu (May 14, 2004)

Does it seem kind of disingenuous to use Korean terminology to describe the use of Japanese weapons?  I have learned weapons forms in Korean dojangs that are directly analagous to those in Japanese dojos.  For instance, our TSD Bong Hyung is very similar to the Bo Kata that Goju Ryu practices.  What this says to me is that the names of the weapons say more about nationalism then about actual practice.

With all due respect.

upnorthkyosa


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## glad2bhere (May 14, 2004)

Absolutely. And what is worse, the Korean weapons are falling by the wayside as the folks focus more on the Japanese and Okinawan material. You know whats REALLY scary? That the Korean nationals are just as much at fault in doing this as the Westerners!!  Whats up about that? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Moo D (May 14, 2004)

Seems strange, especially with the drive and passion of nationalism that exists in both Halves of Korea. Perhaps the Japanese Occupation may have had a deeper and more profound effect on Korean culture.

It seems a shame that the long martial history of Korea, Horsemanship, weapons, etc.. is neglected in such a way!!

Regards,


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## dosandojang (May 14, 2004)

Great discussion here!


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## Moo D (May 14, 2004)

It certainly is, and I am personally learning a lot!!


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## kwanjang (May 15, 2004)

I guess I have been one of the lucky ones.  I learned Korean weapons with Korean names in the art I teach.  We do not teach weapons that are obviously Japanese or Okinawan.  Not that I have anything against it, I just don't see a need for it in my schools, as we have enough weapons to last us all the way to 8th dahn.


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## dosandojang (May 16, 2004)

Yes Sir! You are very lucky to have so many weapons in your arsenal in your style!


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## Kodanjaclay (May 16, 2004)

Kwanjang,

Do you by chance do seminars? Korean weapons is a weakness of mine. One I would like to close. 

Thanks


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## kwanjang (May 16, 2004)

Hello Master Clay:
Yes, I do; however, recently the seminars I have done outside of my own school have been in technique and empty hand hyung.  Weapons are now difficult for me to bring across borders, so I have not been able to do weapons seminars outside of Canada since 9/11.

I was going to bring my cutting sword to Master West's seminar in Jackson last time out (providing I could get it across the border), but JR asked me to do belt techniques instead.  I do whatever I can to help, so that is what I did.  Personally, I think some folks would have loved to do some cutting.

Similarly, I wanted to do a breaking seminar in Jackson a few years ago, but the hotel was not happy about that.  I ended up doing several hours (lunch break and supper break) in the parking lot, and we had nearly the entire group from the seminar breaking bricks instead of doing lunch.  There was just no way I was dragging those cement blocks the 1200 mile drive back home.  GM Kimm thought there was a riot going on outside, so many people were in attendance.  We had a blast, and I have had lots of folks ask me to do it again.  Alas, I do whatever the host wants. 

I do an annual outdoor seminar in Canada during the July long weekend.  It is attended by many US NKMAA members.  We begin by KI training at 6:00 am, then the group runs to a restaurant a few miles down the road, and we start training again at 10:00 am until noon, take a break (BBQ), and resume at 2:00 pm until 5:00 pm.  Then we light the campfire and sit around to share tall tales. 

Most folks pitch a tent, and I have a hundred plus folks staying in my back yard.  We do whatever folks are interested in.  Often weapons are a focus, because of the fact I can't do them in the US due to recent restrictions.  If the weather does not cooperate, we do the workshop in my dojang or another facility (depending on the numbers).  So far, I have just had NKMAA members, but I could consider opening it up if interest is there.


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## kwanjang (May 16, 2004)

Dosan:
I think so too, that is why I can't understand how some folks on the forum think the art I teach is not good.  Beats me, as I have had very few complaints (and those I do get are usually because I teach a bit too hard core and actually make people FEEL technique.


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## dosandojang (May 17, 2004)

Well I do not know why they would put your art down, as NO art is perfect. They need to look at their own arts, and see were they fall short. They are there, all they need to do is look in the mirror....


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## mtabone (May 17, 2004)

In the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan we learn:

First Dan:
tanto hyung cho dan (required)
Tanto hyung Ee Dan (double knife) (optional)
Tanto Ill Soo Suk (required)

Ee Dan:
Bong Ahn Ee Dan (required)
Bong Sip Bong (optional)
Jo Ill Soo Suk (required)

Sam Dan:
Sang Soo Gum Bup Yuk Bun/Chil Bun (required)
Kali Stick/Knife (optional- actually optional at any "Dan" rank)

Sa Dan:
Chinies Broad Sword (required) 

And I can not specificly remember the order/rank needs for the other forms but I do know there is a :

double broad sword form
A Shaolin spear form
Tai Chi Sword
and there might be more but I can't remember anything else...

But of course there are years inbetween ranks, so their is plenty of time to get these forms down...

I believe weapons forms are benificial to training. I personaly love it.

TANG SOO!!!
Michael Tabone


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## Moo D (May 17, 2004)

Mike,

Do you know if the Tanto and Bong hyungs originated from DJN Hwang, or from where outside??

Obviously the remaining weapons are of a chinese origin, do you who brought these into the Mi Guk Kwan Style of TSD and waht style they were originally taken from (i.e. Tai Chi Chaun)??

:idunno: 

Regards,


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## Makalakumu (May 17, 2004)

Moo D said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> Do you know if the Tanto and Bong hyungs originated from DJN Hwang, or from where outside??
> 
> ...



I'd be very careful about classifying any Korean weapons as "Korean".  I'm not sure how much difference (if any) there is in technique.  For example, Bo and Bong hyung/kata are strikingly similar regardless of whether their origin is Chinese, Korean, or Japanese.  Perhaps someone more versed is Korean Weapons can clear this up for me if I'm totally off base.  For those of you who have trained in other arts and other weapons, what sets Korean technique apart from the rest?


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## glad2bhere (May 17, 2004)

".....For those of you who have trained in other arts and other weapons, what sets Korean technique apart from the rest?....." 

As with any system the differentiation is less about execution and more about priorities. For instance, the Kwon Bup chapter of the MYTBTJ is taken from the Boxing Canon of the JIN XIAO SHIN SHU by Gen Qi. Yet, when written in the Korean text the various methods were done as paired sets and not particularly well engineered sets at that. In like manner there is considerable similarities between the Kendo of Japan and most Gumdo of Korea. Yet, the Korean Kum Bup utilizes some 26 sword methods while the Japanese Kendo uses approximately 5 and most of those other methods are heavily influenced by Chinese material. Further, frequency of thrusting versus slashing, use of turning and spinning as well as the overall absence of batto-jutsu in most Korean traditions are additional. Staff work is performed over four items including the staff, cudgeol,  glaive and spears of various lengthes and purpose.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## mtabone (May 17, 2004)

My Kwan Jang Nim (Charles Ferraro) who is head of the style brought these into the style. 

(btw it is a  tia chi chaun sword form...)

I do not know the exact origions are, but they are all "legit" hyungs. But Legit I mean it was not like he just sat in a room and made them up. They all have origions from some art form, and some or very different then TANG SOO DO. Like the sword form. Double Knife form is from some type of Kung Fu, though the Mi Guk Kwan  "TANG SOO DOIZED" the kicks to take them from these leg lift like kicks, to ours, and the stances got a little deeper and the like, but they are for the most part untouched from their origional versions. 

Adding weapons to the cirriculum seemed like a logic step for the Mi Guk Kwan my Kwan Jang Nim said. It seemed to fit right in with us. And the progression of weapons is from Hard to Soft. Much like the form structure, more and more internal. Kind of cool, fits the cycle of aging pretty well...

TANG SOO!!!

Michael Tabone


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## kwanjang (May 18, 2004)

I think the reason for not being able to see a whole lot of difference in weapons hyung is that many schools are mixing them up to the point where indeed they are hard to distinguish.  The Korean hyung I have in our system are a lot more circular in stances, they don't have the tell tale "J" block, and are not as linear in strikes either.  

When compared to Chinese styles, the stances of most Chinese hyung are an immediate give away, and our stuff suddenly does not look as flowing as when compared to Japanese traditional Bo Kata.

What we see today in most tournaments is none of the above, and it is a conglomeration of acrobatics with a weapon without much self-defense purpose. I swear to God some of these kids will have a stroke if they keep screaming like that too.


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## dosandojang (May 18, 2004)

Kwang Jang Nim, I thought I was the ONLY one who noticed those kids screaming those extended, loud, brain popping Kiaps!!!!!!!!!!!! Bruce, your last post was right on the money!


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## kwanjang (May 19, 2004)

Nope, even being a bit on the hard of hearing side, it is still annoying as all get out. IMHO they are not doing themselves any good.


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## Moo D (May 21, 2004)

Thanks guys,

It seems that weapons in TSD suffer from the same uncomplete history as the origins of the art itself. 

Regards,


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## glad2bhere (May 21, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

".......Yes, I do; however, recently the seminars I have done outside of my own school have been in technique and empty hand hyung. Weapons are now difficult for me to bring across borders, so I have not been able to do weapons seminars outside of Canada since 9/11....." 

This is one issue (among many) that I think the KMA need to address seriously. Investigation into the MYTBTJ is, I believe a very important part of the KMA heritage. The only way that I know to do the sort of investigation necessary is to be able to meet in convocations, or seminars, or discussion groups etc., etc. and compare notes on the various techniques and methods. For myself I have run into quite a bit of trouble just trying to get WOODEN weapons onto airplanes! I have a PVC tube that I constructed so I could bring my personal sword along with me and stow it in luggage. I just get very concerned about it being misdirected to someplace other than where I am going. Another problem is that polearms do not travel very well, and constructing them so that they breakdown to a more manageable size always seems to compromise the strength of the weapon. 

Over the years I have been able to catalog the O-Guem series of 5 Korean sword forms and the single long form (Sa Bang Juk Sul Guem Bup) but having these in picture and print (even "colored"    pictures) is just not as good as being able to sit-down in the middle of a floor with other interested folk and work things out a step at a time. When I approached my sword instructor about such things he made it unmistakeably clear that THAT is not how such things are done. Fine. If he had HIS way we would all sit around until someone ELSE "broke the rules", thought things through, published a definitive answer and then he would lift that! 

Any who---- getting back to the issue, I am thinking there must be some way to transport training weapons so that we can move forward with KMA weapons work. The alternative is to sit back and let the Korean arts adopt more and more weapons from other systems and have the Korean traditions fall to the wayside.  Thoughts? Comments?  Anyone? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (May 21, 2004)

Dear Folks: 

This is just a general comment (for which I will probably get fried given my typical position regarding the integrity of the KMA). I know that I have VERY often dug my heels in and been a real pain in the a$$ when it comes to following only Korean traditions. I am however (and just this once!!!) going to make a suggestion that folks who are interested in such things may want to consider for expanding or challenging their training. Now of course I am a Hapkido teacher so you TSD people are going to have to chew on this a bit. However you, like the Hapkido arts draw significant material from outside of Korea so just consider this for what it is worth. 

In the MYTBTJ there is a KWON BUP (lit: "fist method") chapter based on Gebn Qis' Boxing Canon. If you read the text you will find that not even the Koreans were real happy with the result they put together which is the KWON BUP chapter. In fact that is one of the reasons that chapter is not practices as such and probably why people such as Hwang Kee only used it for guidance rather than actually incorporating the drills into their arts in toto. 

That said, if people are intersted in Two-man forms oriented towards grappling you may want to consider two sources. 

1.) SHORINJI KEMPO by Doshin So. No its not REALLY Shorinji Kempo but rather Doshin Sos' take on the subject following his various experiences in MA including some time in DRAJJ. The two-man drills are nice in that they incoporate both striking/kicking and groappling/manipulation. The original is probably long out of print but that is not anything that a decent inter-library loan and a copy machine can't solve. (You didn't hear me say that.) 

2.) YANQINGQUAN by Chen, Fangqi and Chen, Youliang. (Dist.: China International Book Trading Corp., Beijing,) The art of this book, (also known as Mizongquan), broad as it is, is neatly reduced to three very challenging but but well documented instructional forms. The last form is a fine two-man form which, unlike the MYTBTJ KWON BUP chapter are not zero-sum encounters but rather more along the line of what most people call "flow work". Those of you who aren't familiar with flow work may have a bit of trouble with this as it requires two cooperative practitioners to apply their techniques alternately only to the point of failure and then defer to the partners counter technique which is likewise only taken to the point of failure before deferring--- well you get the idea. 

I should probably not be writing this with a thunderstorm outside as it only gives the Deity an additional opportunity for hitting me with lightening for apparently reversing my long-held position regarding Korean material. All the same, not everyone shares my rigid traditionalism and I would rather people were exposed to decent material as I find it than rely on some garbage they stumble across and use for lack of anything else.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (May 23, 2004)

Hello Bruce:
Sorry I took so long to get back to you.  I was away doing a seminar this weekend, and I just returned a few minutes ago.  Even though it is about 4:00 am, I figured I'd best get at my email.  

Yes, the weapons situation since 9/11 has been hard to deal with for me, as this is one area my members often like to work on with me.  Not much we can do about it though, but just the same I'll not use weapons of other arts.   Too much as it is, and never enough time.

BTW, I noticed folks send me private messages on this forum, and I find that venue hard to work with.  I can't seem to find an easy way to reply.  It is best to get in touch with me by using my regular email address.  I check it on a daily basis and make replies at once (unless I am on seminar tour).  Thanks for making life a bit easier for me.


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## glad2bhere (May 23, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

Putting flying to one side for a moment, have you ever had trouble bringing weapons across the Can-Am border--- either way? Are there any special points you need to address when you do this? Inquiring minds would like to know. 

BTW: Has anyone had any experiences taking weapons across the Mex-Am border? If you want to get back to flying, how about taking weapons to/from Europe? Anyone? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (May 23, 2004)

Hello Bruce:
I have been across with swords etc. many times before, but now there is a definite change in attitude even with legit weapons.  Coming back to the Canadian side is even more difficult, as most of the agents do not even know that swords are legal.  They ask every martial artist coming across if they have weapons (as soon as you tell them you are a martial artist), and mostly they look for Shuriken, Gusari Kama, and Nunchaku or Juhl Bong.  all of these (and some others) are illegal, and they WILL give you major trouble.  Swords can be explained, but it takes a half day just for them to get it through their thick heads that these things are legal.

These days, they DO open your trunk etc. when going into the US, so NOT declaring weapons is not a good idea.


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## Chrono (Jun 12, 2004)

I love weapons!! Pretty much the only one we do in class is the staff. However, we have this thing called the Black Belt Club, and they meet about once a Saturday every month and they will take up nunchakus or the sai. My instructor is a 2nd degree and he said that once he becomes 3rd degree he will begin learning the sword form. Man, I can't wait until he starts showing us that.

 Jon


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## kwanjang (Jun 12, 2004)

Hello Jon:
Good thing to begin with non edged weapons first, it gives you a bit of practice with something in your hand without the danger of a sharp tool getting in the way of training.  Best of luck with your practice.


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## glad2bhere (Jun 13, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

The progression of weapons in YMK Hapkido starts with the Soh Bong, moves to Dan bong and then to jang bong before getting to the sword. In this way a person who has plenty of background in MTHand and these first three weapons has a fine foundation before they start swinging a sharp edge around. FWIW. 

BTW: Sorry I can't help out with the folks over on BUDO-SEEK but as you know I was banned from there. Too bad really. Joon Park has quite a bit to learn about the nature and practice of sword within the context of Korean culture. I had just completed almost exactly the same discussion over on E-BUDO except that the person misguided in that case was a practitioner of Japanese sword. The premise was the same though -- to wit: "Koreans don't have any sword of their own. Its all Japanese stuff exported to Korea during the Occupation." You'd think with as much info as there is floating around, this stuff would finally get laid to rest.  :idunno: 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Jun 14, 2004)

OOPS.  You been a bad boy again Bruce  Seriously, I have a very similar program.  We teach the short staff, then the middle staff, and sword comes only after folks know how to deal with something in their hands other than their fork Seems like Mr. Park had some "different ideas" about Korean swords, names of weapons, and the Japanese connection.  I thought since you are a bit more into the Japanese aspects, you could offer some guidance.  The folks on budoseek must have gotten a chuckle out of my post when I suggested you fill him in on things.  Oh well, I've had egg on my face before


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## glad2bhere (Jun 14, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

I don't know that I mind Joon Park speaking out on his views, but I get concerned when he makes statements that are at odds with the facts. Were I able to get on to the E-BUDO Net I would cut&paste my posts from there and save myself a bit of typing. Failing that there are a couple of things we need to remember about Korean weapons work. 

1.) The Korean culture only rarely in its history supported a standing military and then only for domestic security and not for use as an agency for international policy.  The army was constructed around a cadre of professionals who over saw periodic training of corvee or "conscripts" in much the same way as we Americans have our National Guard with their monthly meetings.

2.) The Korean weapons may have been borrowed from other cultures, but the Koreans usually put their own spin on things. For instance there are at least 5 sword architectures recognized in Korean martial science and while manuals such as the MYTBTJ provided minimal standards of technique and usage (including construction) this doesn't mean that the Koreans didn't develop unique techniques inaddition to what they were "officially" suppose to know for combat. This brings us to the last point. 

3.) While it IS true that "Gum-do" and "Ken-do" use the same Chinese characters, not ALL Gum-do practitioners follow the material laid down by the Japanese. In fact, the Japanese kendo uses only the first 5 Bup or methods (K. O-Bup) while traditional Korean sword goes on to utilize an additional 17 to 21 Bup that the Japanese Kendoist does not. It has become a growing tendency of practitioners who follow older Korean sword methods to identify what they do as "Gum Bup" (lit. "sword method") in much the same manner as Japanese practioners of older forms call their material "ken-jutsu". I am VERY concerned that with time and apathy on the part of many KMA practitioners that the sword methods historically practiced in Korean martial practice will fall to the side and only the simple sport applications of the Kendoist will remain. I think this would be a terrible loss for the KMA culture.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce
3rd, Hwa Rang Kum Bup


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## kwanjang (Jun 14, 2004)

Hello Bruce:
Like you, I encourage discussion and open minded views.  I just hate to see folks make really strong statements that are not necessarily true or may have duplicate meanings in different cultures... especially when it concerns martial art history


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## saja (Jul 13, 2004)

Moo D,
We teach the royle court weapons from Korea, Long Staff, Knife, Cane, Rope, Fighting Fan, and Sword.  I did not use korean terminology because some of the others that do not study the Korean Art may not understand.  In Class we use Korean terminology for all weapons.

Tang Soo!


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