# Where Did The Basics Go?



## MJS (Jun 2, 2009)

Whether its a youtube clip or watching someone in person, I often find myself watching and wondering why the basics are so poor. Its almost as if people are in a rush to get through the kata or whatever it is they're doing, that they neglect important things such as stance, footwork, proper execution of strikes, etc. 

Now, I'm sure, especially if you're dealing with someone who is a beginner, and if the person has never trained before, their coordination may be a bit off, but IMO, thats the time to make the corrections. I say this because that is when their solid foundation should be built. If you don't correct it asap, then they'll continue on thru the ranks, with a poor foundation. 

So what is it? What makes basics take such a backseat? Is it the Mcdojos that are more concerned with quantity over quality, pumping out BB after BB after BB, the amount of $$$ that they're bringing in each month, or a fear that if they harp on students to look sharp, those people will leave and go to another school where its not as important?

Where do you all place basics on the foodchain?  Do you harp on students to look sharp or let that area slide a bit, to focus on something else?


----------



## Drac (Jun 2, 2009)

MJS said:


> Where do you all place basics on the foodchain? Do you harp on students to look sharp or let that area slide a bit, to focus on something else?


 
Father Greek and I remind students at every class to remember the basics...


----------



## clfsean (Jun 2, 2009)

Every class I teach has this format 
... basics first
... existing material is reviewed
... new material is presented
... review all material
... applications
... review applications
... review all applications & material

Granted it's not kenpo but IMHO the art shouldn't matter in that respect. Basics are basics & to me should be the first thing reviewed/taught in each class.


----------



## MJS (Jun 2, 2009)

There are times, when watching students do forms, I'll have them go in slow motion, stopping after each move, to check their stance, where their strikes are going, etc.

I just feel that if basic things are neglected, that will take a toll on everything else.  If the foundation of a house isn't good, well....isn't that the base of the house?  How is anything else going to be sturdy if the foundation sucks?


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 2, 2009)

a lot of kenpo schools stress speed over form. or, the students try to match the speed of the instructor and it doesnt get corrected


----------



## just2kicku (Jun 2, 2009)

MJS said:


> Whether its a youtube clip or watching someone in person, I often find myself watching and wondering why the basics are so poor. Its almost as if people are in a rush to get through the kata or whatever it is they're doing, that they neglect important things such as stance, footwork, proper execution of strikes, etc.
> 
> Now, I'm sure, especially if you're dealing with someone who is a beginner, and if the person has never trained before, their coordination may be a bit off, but IMO, thats the time to make the corrections. I say this because that is when their solid foundation should be built. If you don't correct it asap, then they'll continue on thru the ranks, with a poor foundation.
> 
> ...



We drill basics in everything, when we show techniques, we show the basics involved.

We try to explain that when you build a house, you don't start with the roof. You start with a good solid foundation.

Problem is, people don't want to do just 2 foot movements an entire class. They get bored and really not try. It's frustrating. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. We tell them to practice their basics just 5 min a day. No magic.

No one eats, sleeps and drinks karate anymore. It's more of a hobby to some.

That's why we have students that haven't been promoted in over a year. Their basics suck.


----------



## searcher (Jun 2, 2009)

My basics changed when I went back to EPAK.   The stance changes and basic positioning is so very different from other styles I train in.

I have been training for most of my life and I did not see how bad my basics had changed over the years.   I think we get to the point where we just assume that our basics are still good and so we don't spend as much time on them as we should.


----------



## clfsean (Jun 2, 2009)

searcher said:


> I have been training for most of my life and I did not see how bad my basics had changed over the years.   I think we get to the point where we just assume that our basics are still good and so we don't spend as much time on them as we should.



Even though I train my basics almost daily, my sifu when I see him tells me first thing "Let me see your basics" then about 45 minutes later after review & any corrections, we move on. This is after years of 30 plus hours a week training with him, he still checks my basics.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 2, 2009)

Good basics are essential but you have seen an erosion of good basics in almost every system do to the idea of teaching quantity over quality.


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 2, 2009)

I have noticed that students who are in it for self-defense vs. other reasons will usually approach the instructor and ask for corrections.  They WANT their basics to be good and will spend the time and effort doing repititions on "basic" material to perfect them.  Whereas, students who like to do it for physical activity or a study of themselves, aren't as concerned about perfecting them and just like the "movement for movements sake".

I think some instructors will let students approach them after something is pointed out so they don't waste their own time with students who don't really care about them.


----------



## LawDog (Jun 2, 2009)

Advanced techniques are your basics with a few transitional applications added. If you want to develop really good advanced technique you should isolate the basic motion within the techniques and then strive to perfect them. Now place the transitional applications back in. Now you will have excellant advanced techniques that have speed, power with proper flow.

Today it seems that most will only work or the combined motion instead of isolating it down to it's basic components.

Flash vs speed/power with flow.


----------



## Rabu (Jun 2, 2009)

You should never have this as a problem.

If you do not have the basics, why do you have advanced techniques or forms being taught to you?

If your foundation is weak, you have nothing.

If you are speaking about a learning curve, where the quality degrades while new material is being absorped, then you are talking something different than I am talking about.

The integration of new or more techniques should happen as you are ready for them, not as your contract for classes gets close to renewal....

Rabu


----------



## seasoned (Jun 2, 2009)

Basics are the foundation from which our techniques are developed from. It is the well from which we need to return to for proper form. Every Olympic activity has a base of technique, from which all precise movement comes from.


----------



## RevIV (Jun 3, 2009)

*White Belt
*6th Rokkyu​ 
Objective:  The white belt is the first, and thus one of the most important levels that our students study.  The white belt level is 
the foundation for all subsequent learning at Dragon-Phoenix Martial Arts.  Not all white belts will become black belts, but ALL 
black belts were once white belts.  For this reason the basic information taught at this level is absolutely crucial to advancing in 
the system.  Students who spend the time required to master the basics will almost always make the best martial artists in the 
future.

This is the first paragraph on the first piece of paper i give my students.


----------



## MJS (Jun 3, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> We drill basics in everything, when we show techniques, we show the basics involved.
> 
> We try to explain that when you build a house, you don't start with the roof. You start with a good solid foundation.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed.  Out of curiosity, do you see any change in student body?  In other words, do you see people at your school, who don't like that fact, the fact that their basics suck, and turn around and leave for another school, that'll promote them?  What is your instructors take on that?  

While I don't do Kaju...but man, I'd love to have a school nearby......it doesn't seem like an art that hands out the ranks unless you earn it, with blood, sweat and tears.  

On a side note...watching a few of the recent clips of a BB test at GM Kingis school, all I can say is WOW!!!!  That test is no joke!  I think its safe to say that you wouldn't be testing if you didn't deserve it.


----------



## just2kicku (Jun 3, 2009)

MJS said:


> Agreed.  Out of curiosity, do you see any change in student body?  In other words, do you see people at your school, who don't like that fact, the fact that their basics suck, and turn around and leave for another school, that'll promote them?  What is your instructors take on that?
> 
> While I don't do Kaju...but man, I'd love to have a school nearby......it doesn't seem like an art that hands out the ranks unless you earn it, with blood, sweat and tears.
> 
> On a side note...watching a few of the recent clips of a BB test at GM Kingis school, all I can say is WOW!!!!  That test is no joke!  I think its safe to say that you wouldn't be testing if you didn't deserve it.



Well Mike, 
We go thru periods where we'll have a high turnover rate, and yes, sometimes they do leave and go to other schools. Right now it's been pretty steady. But we do drill basics, basics, basics.

We show them that if you only learned inward block and a punch, with just those two basic strikes and basic foot movements, the number of defenses against grabs and punches are endless. But, it comes down to basics. No magic chi balls, basics.

Now Ilm a little old school. My instructor and I were roommates for a few years. So I did a lot of practicing at home. He would wake me up at 1 and 2 in the morning with a wild hair up his ***, and train me in our living room and kitchen. I do not regret it one bit.

Although a lot of new students come in saying that they don't care about the belt, some leave when they don't get promoted fast enough. But it all comes down to basics.

I know a million techs, but when attacked, I automatically use basics. But the thing is I practiced basics a lot, it's second nature.

But, I think that what TF said has a lot of truth, speed has replaced basics, fancy crap that you'll never use on the streets has replaced basics. You see it in forms competitions. The guy with great basics and solid stances will lose to someone who can jump spin 720 degrees throw ten thousand kicks in the air and has a ton of flash.

Just my thoughts, i'd rather be able to defend myself then to do all that!


----------



## clfsean (Jun 3, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Well Mike,
> We go thru periods where we'll have a high turnover rate, and yes, sometimes they do leave and go to other schools. Right now it's been pretty steady. But we do drill basics, basics, basics.
> 
> We show them that if you only learned inward block and a punch, with just those two basic strikes and basic foot movements, the number of defenses against grabs and punches are endless. But, it comes down to basics. No magic chi balls, basics.
> ...



That about sums it up. I teach a CMA that's considered flashy & all at times, but when you get to brass tax (the way I teach anyway)... basics, basics, basics, more basics... that helps you go home.


----------



## Carol (Jun 3, 2009)

MJS said:


> What makes basics take such a backseat?



Compare that question with this one presented by Jarrod, where he talks about students declining rank.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76555

Most of the comments indicate that refusing rank is disrespectful, and would even lead to the teacher-student relationship being terminated.

Is there a connection?  Perhaps students are getting promoted before they have their basics mastered?


----------



## searcher (Jun 3, 2009)

For most schools I have been around, especially in my immediate area, the basics went out the window when the rent went up..........or the instructor needed a new car.


----------



## clfsean (Jun 3, 2009)

searcher said:


> For most schools I have been around, especially in my immediate area, the basics went out the window when the rent went up..........or the instructor needed a new car.



Truth for the large part ...


----------



## Chazmek (Jun 3, 2009)

searcher said:


> For most schools I have been around, especially in my immediate area, the basics went out the window when the rent went up..........or the instructor needed a new car.


 
The students also play a large part.
When the people that are paying your salary always want to learn new and exciting stuff rather than drill the basics, it can be easy to slip into that sort of teaching. It may not be in the students' best interest to teach this way, and a good instructor should be able to keep his class interested in training without losing sight of the basics, but I can certainly understant how it could happen.


----------



## seasoned (Jun 4, 2009)

If change in the martial arts has accrued over the years, it is because of a misconception of what basics are. It seems that everyone wants to get right to the self defense and fighting aspects of the style, and forget the boring fundamentals. I feel that many Sensei have forgotten their roots, and have been taken up with money and greed, not all, but many. 
If I may use a scenario, lets take fire arms. Cardinal "basic" rules, that everyone must know. Never point a fire arm at anything you are not going to shoot, finger off the trigger, and outside of the trigger guard. Always know your target and beyond. Treat every fire arm as if it were loaded, because, as you know, every person you ever hear of that got accidentally shot, was shot with an empty gun. Now in reality, everyone, just wants to go to the range and shoot that puppy, and forget the above. 
Anybody in life that ever wanted to do better in anything, whether, raising kids, being married or being successful at their job has gone back to basics. 
There is a saying in my dojo that states, "don't do what I do, but do what I did to get here". Basics, not only teach a strong foundation to any given art, but they also teach patience, principles, and build character, plain and simple.


----------



## MJS (Jun 4, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Compare that question with this one presented by Jarrod, where he talks about students declining rank.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76555
> 
> ...


 
The guy that I do BJJ with...although I havent trained with him in a while....has always said that if I was interested I could test.  I acknowledge this, however, I'm more content with just training.  Who knows...maybe down the road, after getting back into the swing of things, I'll take him up on that offer.  There was no disrespect either way.

I suppose we can look at it like this...some say that they're content to wait until the teacher puts them up for promotion.  That is the way I look at it.  I'm happy training and learning.  Rank isn't a priority for me, so when it happens, it happens.   I have a good relationship with all of my teachers, so yes, there have been times when I've expressed concern about not being ready.  A good example of this was recently when I, along with 3 other Arnis students, tested for our Arnis Black Belt.  The 4 of us had tested a year ago, for the prob. black, so about a year and a half later, the official 1st degree test comes up.  The other 3 had the chance to work together alot more, so yes, I expressed some concern that there was a few things that I would've liked to have brushed up on.  However, my inst. reassured me, that we were all ready.  

Test day arrives, the atmosphere was much more relaxed than the first test, and sure enough, aside from a few brain farts, we pulled everything off with no issues.  

I think alot of times, it comes down to the money.  I have taught for a long time, and had to deal with those parents who wondered why their kid, who started with Johnny, wasn't advancing with Johnny.  Sorry, but I can't promote someone who isn't performing like they should.  People have a choice....get pissed and leave, going to a school that hands out ranks along with a side dish of fries or start busting your *** and make yourself better.  Sadly, there are some who cater to the belt and fry crowd, thus, belts are dished out when people are not ready.


----------



## searcher (Jun 4, 2009)

One thing I was thinking about here is that styles vary, even in the Kenpo family.    Some things are the same, but others may vary a little bit(the problem I ran into when switching styles).    We need to make sure we compare apples to apples, not apples to comquats.


----------



## clfsean (Jun 4, 2009)

searcher said:


> One thing I was thinking about here is that styles vary, even in the Kenpo family.    Some things are the same, but others may vary a little bit(the problem I ran into when switching styles).    We need to make sure we compare apples to apples, not apples to comquats.



True but basics are basics no matter the style. That's the jist of the thing. Judo basics are different from CLF basics. However if I skip basics with my students or a Judo coach skips basics with his students, they both look like ****. Doesn't matter "what" they're doing, the lack of foundation becomes readily apparent to anybody.


----------



## Christina05 (Jun 9, 2009)

searcher said:


> I think we get to the point where we just assume that our basics are still good and so we don't spend as much time on them as we should.


 
 Very true i think you just figure well I done them for so long they don't need work. definetly will show when you switch styles


----------



## KenpoDave (Jun 10, 2009)

searcher said:


> For most schools I have been around, especially in my immediate area, the basics went out the window when the rent went up..........or the instructor needed a new car.


 
Interesting.  I have found that more students stick around when the basics remain the top priority.  I went through a phase as an instructor a few years back, where I decided to focus on some advanced stuff because it was so much cooler.  Attendance dropped off, and quality began to fade.

When I recognized the problem and got back to basics, attendance went back up, retention increased, and student quality increased.

It is difficult to place basics in a priority order for me anymore.  No matter what we are doing, it is the basics that are the focus.


----------



## just2kicku (Jun 11, 2009)

I think that without basics, everything you do will look bad. I showed a technique to the students, it was "advanced", but when we broke it down, all it was was a string of basics put together. I think I saw the light pop on when I explained that.

Here's hoping


----------



## Doc (Jun 12, 2009)

MJS said:


> Whether its a youtube clip or watching someone in person, I often find myself watching and wondering why the basics are so poor. Its almost as if people are in a rush to get through the kata or whatever it is they're doing, that they neglect important things such as stance, footwork, proper execution of strikes, etc.
> 
> Now, I'm sure, especially if you're dealing with someone who is a beginner, and if the person has never trained before, their coordination may be a bit off, but IMO, thats the time to make the corrections. I say this because that is when their solid foundation should be built. If you don't correct it asap, then they'll continue on thru the ranks, with a poor foundation.
> 
> ...



Truth is sir, I've only seen a handful that actually "knew" and were capable of teaching the basics, and in a commercial environment they are too demanding and boring when the guy down the street gets promoted for showing up, and moving as fast as he can - no matter what he looks like, and nobody seems to have stances anymore as a result.


----------



## MJS (Jun 12, 2009)

Doc said:


> Truth is sir, I've only seen a handful that actually "knew" and were capable of teaching the basics, and in a commercial environment they are too demanding and boring when the guy down the street gets promoted for showing up, and moving as fast as he can - no matter what he looks like, and nobody seems to have stances anymore as a result.


 
Sad but true Doc.


----------



## K-man (Jun 13, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> We show them that if you only learned inward block and a punch, with just those two basic strikes and basic foot movements, the number of defenses against grabs and punches are endless. But, it comes down to basics. No magic chi balls, basics.
> 
> I know a million techs, but when attacked, I automatically use basics. But the thing is I practiced basics a lot, it's second nature.
> 
> ...





> We show them that if you only learned inward block and a punch, with just those two basic strikes and basic foot movements, the number of defenses against grabs and punches are endless.


Isn't that the essence of kata? So many people look at kata as a waste of time, ignoring the fact that it is a combination of basics which form the core of the style. And, as you point out, for each basic move there are an endless number of applications. I teach the basics and then work on the applications when an opportunity arises. That adds interest to the training for MAs of any level.
I have just been re-reading an e-book by a guy called Graham Palmer. He laments the fact that when karate went into the schools the bunkai was left behind. My feeling is that if the instructors understood the applications, and taught them, students would be only too happy to train the basics. :asian:


----------



## madeku (Jun 20, 2009)

one of the problems today i think is alot of people (students and instructors teaching) work basics from a training horse stance and think that's it.. anyone that "knows" how and where to position things can have good, crisp basics in a stationary stance.. but change the stance up, or have them do it moving, or heaven forbid practicing a propper block in a situation when adreneline is up (sparring, etc.)

changing up how/when you practice basics i think is a good idea. a huge difference, in execution, timing, positioning, and the state of your mind and body.. it shows whether or not you really have engrained the basic down for yourself and can pull it off correctly, or can you just "preform" it when asked?


----------



## MattJ (Jun 20, 2009)

^ Exactly. I have been saying that for years. Work some resistance into the training, and the art will work for you!


----------



## Doc (Jun 20, 2009)

madeku said:


> one of the problems today i think is alot of people (students and instructors teaching) work basics from a training horse stance and think that's it.. anyone that "knows" how and where to position things can have good, crisp basics in a stationary stance.. but change the stance up, or have them do it moving, or heaven forbid practicing a propper block in a situation when adreneline is up (sparring, etc.)
> 
> changing up how/when you practice basics i think is a good idea. a huge difference, in execution, timing, positioning, and the state of your mind and body.. it shows whether or not you really have engrained the basic down for yourself and can pull it off correctly, or can you just "preform" it when asked?


While everything you say is absolutely correct, the hard part is - knowing the "basics" in the first place to teach. Most believe they do, and aren't even close because they're teachers didn't know them, or didn't teach them. What they think are correct basics are really bad mechanics that injure students eventually.


----------



## MHeeler (Jun 21, 2009)

This is such a timely topic for me personally.  A few years ago, I moved back to my old hometown (work), and was able to return to my original school (non-Kenpo).  This was a happy return for me...the school held many great memories, and the instructor and the senior students were like close family I hadn't seen in too long.  Over the past few years, however, I have noticed myself finding more and more excuses not to attend classes.  Instead, I have been training more at home (alone or with my patient wife).

When I finally realized this change, I had to admit to myself that this was because of a serious change in the instruction.  Many years ago, this was a serious school, dedicated to serious (many times "unpleasant") training.  In the years since, it seems that the culture here has changed.  After mustering up the courage to ask my instructor about it, she confirmed that she was unable to keep many students while continuing her previous methods of teaching.  She is lucky enough that her "day-job" allows her to teach more for love of the arts rather than financial stability, but she was in a situation where she would be without any students to teach unless she changed.  

I can't say that I blame her.  She still loves teaching, is able to do so with less commitment on her part, and has many happy students.  (She now focuses more on competition and has managed to coach several successful competitors.)  I just find it a sad state of affairs.  After seeing the same phenomenon in the majority of schools in the area, I now wonder if this isn't an unavoidable change in the culture of martial arts training.

Saddened,
MH


----------



## Doc (Jun 21, 2009)

MHeeler said:


> This is such a timely topic for me personally.  A few years ago, I moved back to my old hometown (work), and was able to return to my original school (non-Kenpo).  This was a happy return for me...the school held many great memories, and the instructor and the senior students were like close family I hadn't seen in too long.  Over the past few years, however, I have noticed myself finding more and more excuses not to attend classes.  Instead, I have been training more at home (alone or with my patient wife).
> 
> When I finally realized this change, I had to admit to myself that this was because of a serious change in the instruction.  Many years ago, this was a serious school, dedicated to serious (many times "unpleasant") training.  In the years since, it seems that the culture here has changed.  After mustering up the courage to ask my instructor about it, she confirmed that she was unable to keep many students while continuing her previous methods of teaching.  She is lucky enough that her "day-job" allows her to teach more for love of the arts rather than financial stability, but she was in a situation where she would be without any students to teach unless she changed.
> 
> ...



Well Doctor, it is something I too have lived long enough to be witness to in all areas of the now, Martial Arts Business. If you intend to stay fiscally viable, you will compromise your teachings. It is why I have never been in the business of teaching. I have a standard that I teach, that most would find boring because it requires too much self discipline, and correctness of movement. It's much easier to jump around and get promoted commensurate with your time at the school, and the timeliness of your payments.


----------



## Kenpo17 (Sep 5, 2009)

Sometimes, and I have done this on some occassions, I will be in a rush to get through a form either because I am being judged in a tournament or showing a student a form in full motion.  I try to tell my students and I also tell myself that expecially in forms, show your moves, make them visible to others who may be watching, fully extend the arm when needed.


----------



## Ironcrane (Sep 5, 2009)

I'm am guilty of losing proper basics. Partly because after awhile of doing the basics, I've "moved on to more interesting, and exotic stuff." so to speak. And put most all of my attention on that, so basics become forgotten.

Also, just being able to get to school and train is a challenge all on it's own. I've struggled with changing work, and bus schedules that take over my class time as much as possible, and simply not being able to afford it. I even had to give it up completely for an entire year to go to medical school. With all that going on, practicing really starts to suffer.

But I'd also like to mention that rediscovering the forgotten basics can really blow your mind. One little, tiny detail can really make everything else so much more effective.


----------

