# Disarming a Gun



## Hawke (Jun 7, 2007)

Would this work in the real world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE&mode=related&search=

What other modifications or strikes would you use instead?

Blind the guy so he can't see? 
(instead of throwing punches, sticking a thumb inside his eye)

Break his knee so he can't run?
(after you break his trigger finger, a low side kick to his knee)

Shoot?
(he no longer has a gun, would this now be murder or still self defense)


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## thardey (Jun 7, 2007)

The only real problem that jumps out at me is that if you grab a semi-automatic right over the ejection port, where he does, and the gun goes off, you will get powder burns on your hands, and the force of the slide coming back will tear up your hands as well. The twist of the trigger finger will break it, I'm sure, but will also make the gun go off.

Try it with an airsoft gun -- the same force that breaks the finger also pulls the trigger, and even if the gun is pointed in a safe direction, your hands are going to be messed up.

I've also seen gun grabs where you grab right in front of the trigger, but on a revolver, there's a lot of escaping gases right there that can burn you pretty badly.

I like his attitude though -- give them what you can, and get out of there. I carry two wallets -- a small one in my front pocket that has driver's license, credit cards, and cash, and another in my back pocket (traditional) that has pictures, membership cards, and other stuff that can be easily canceled, and has no data that can be used for ID theft.

A friend tried to pop me with an airsoft gun at that range once, and I grabbed his wrist with both hands, pointed the gun at his feet, and simulated kneeing him in the groin and solar plexus. (He bent down to follow the gun). He got the point  (Redirect, Control, and Counter)


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## Hawke (Jun 7, 2007)

*The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly*

Police Training Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWj6F7JeDio&mode=related&search=

Military?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saHH_svDCmU&mode=related&search=

Krav Maga
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZtRmnly_sU&mode=related&search=

Hwa Rang Do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGKEpMEwSYc&mode=related&search=

Systema




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghlvfvx_6JM&mode=related&search= (live gun)

Silat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjCCDXN5Pew&mode=related&search=

Wouldn't two hands on a gun be better?  Also if you had a gun why would you want to stand so close?


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## MA-Caver (Jun 7, 2007)

This instructor's first few points is spot on. Give the assailant whatever he wants ... except your life. Every LEO will tell you that and agree with it. It's the smart thing to do. 
As for the rest... thardey talks about getting severe burns from a weapon that's been fired while you are holding it. To be honest... burns heal, death does not. Better to be burned than to have a bullet invading your body leading to possibly dangerous emergency surgery procedures to remove it, as say near the heart. 
I'm not saying that ER surgeons aren't capable of performing the surgery I'm saying that it's just dangerous because they have to work so closely to the one thing that keeping you alive. Even if the bullet penetrates you elsewhere you still got infection to worry about and if it goes into your gut/stomach you got a real problem. 
Besides, you're not going to be thinking about getting burned when you're going for the gun to save your (and possibly your SO's) life.

Watching the other videos... a line from "The Good, The Bad & The Ugly" popped in my head... Tuco (Eli Wallach) sitting in bathtub in a bombed out hotel room being threatened by a bad-guy ... shot him twice then shot him again after getting out of the tub... then looks at the (dead) guy and says: "... if you're going to shoot, shoot don't talk!"


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## LawDog (Jun 7, 2007)

A few guides to help if you decide to do a gun disarm.
1) A firearm can only harm you if you are in a straight line position from the muzzle. Your first move should be to break this center alignment asap. A step, lean or torso twist or all of the formentioned will work just fine.
2) Grabbing a weapon,
  *Semi auto - you should not grab to the rear of the slide, it could cut you real deep. Grab it at the center of the slide, this will not allow the gun to cycle properly to load the next round or grab the grip itself.
  *Revolver - you should not grab the area where the cylinder and the forcing cone meet. A flame / hot gasses will exit through this location. A good place will be around the hammer area or the grip area itself.
3) Controling the weapon,
  *many gun techniques will have you bring the weapon up near your face. There is a very hot flame and sever concussion near the muzzle, this flame can burn your eyes or face, the concession can damage your eyes and / or ears.
  *keep the weapon away from his other hand, he will try to grab it.
  *when you grab the weapon your attacker will usually freak out and act like a wild man, use a technique that has a strong base to it.
  *the firearm will probably fire at least one time, remember this round has to go somewhere. Make sure that it isn't in you or someone around you.


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## Drac (Jun 7, 2007)

LawDog beat me too the punch..I cannot add anything except purchase an *Airsoft *pistol and *PRACTICE*...Don't forget *eye protection *anytime you are training with a practice weapon that can discharge any type of projectile...


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## jks9199 (Jun 7, 2007)

Lawdog, Thardey and others beat me to the punch...

First and foremost -- if giving up your stuff will satisfy a guy with a gun, then give it to them.  If you're likely to get cut dealing unarmed with a knife... you're likely to get shot trying to disarm a gun.

Secondly -- this is an unrealistic presentation and scenario.  It's not really likely that a robber is going to brandish a gun standing still in front of you.  

Finally -- get off the line.  Bullets only move out from the muzzle.  They don't zig zag.  

As Drac said -- try some of these with Airsoft or squirt guns...


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## Monadnock (Jun 7, 2007)

I thought the original vid was OK, well 50-50.

Using the assailant's commands as the time to get your hands to the weapon and redirecting it-- Good

Pinning the gun to his body and punching him in the face -- Bad
He's not going to stand there and let you hit him. Once he realizes he's lost control of the situation, there is going to be a struggle. It is not going to stay pinned to his hip. You don't want the gun flailing around.

The lock/strip against the trigger finger -- Good

Turning the gun half way back so it slides off the finger more easily -- Bad
At that point, you can strip off as much skin (or even the whole digit) when you take the gun. No need to be nice.

In the case of a revolver, it is nice to grab over the cylinder so that it cannot rotate and allow the next round to go off. Grabbing where he did on a semi-auto is going to be moving fast and really burn.


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## Callandor (Jun 8, 2007)

Hawke said:


> Shoot?
> (he no longer has a gun, would this now be murder or still self defense)


Under Philippine law, that would be homicide; not murder but definitely not self defense either because unlawful aggression has already ceased and even if not, the means employed (shooting him with his gun) is disproportionate to his (now unarmed) aggression. I don't know if this applies to your jurisdiction. I think it's called manslaughter / Imperfect self defense there. However, please understand that this is a legal question which may have ugly consequences if you don't consult a legal professional in your area and any response in this forum is only a discussion of the legal problem and does not constitute legal advice whatsoever.


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## tellner (Jun 8, 2007)

Gun retention and disarming is a specialized discipline all its own. I've been taught a little but have never had to do so in real life, Baruch Hashem, Alhumdilallah, thank the Compassionate Buddha and Praise Jesus. Remember that the gun is only dangerous as long as the little hole is pointing at you. Move it out of the way and move yourself out of the way. Get control. Get the other guy in trouble and never let him get out. Find a teacher with real experience in the police, military, bodyguarding or unofficial OJT and "life skills". Practice assiduously. Make sure you're right with your G-d.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2007)

All good points, one thing that hasn't been touched on however is muzzle flash. If you are near a gun that goes off in darkness or a combination of darkness and snow you are likely going to be blinded for a few seconds. While i know zero disarms and have had no training opposing a gun armed attacker i know this from personal experiences. Also, one of my friends was murdered with a pistol, his house was invaded and he turned and ran to aquire his gun and was shot in the head several times. Even small caliber guns are deadly as he was killed with a .22 target pistol. All I can offer as a solution is this, learn your techniques and learn to carry them out while using touch and audibles cause you may not have your sight to rely on if you're blinded by a muzzle flash...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 8, 2007)

That is a good Krav Maga video and the technique is pretty standardly taught in Krav Maga.  Truthfully this is a pretty effective technique except right at the end.  If I have been lucky enough to get the assailants gun I am creating quite a bit of space between he and I.  That way he has to come through the space or close the distance to retake the firearm away from me. 

As for the gasses burning your hand.  That is a small price to pay.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 8, 2007)

We drill that exact technique(from the video).

Only difference is 'body evasion'.  As your hand is grabbing the gun, slide your body to your left to get your body/face out of the line of fire (pivot slightly on the ball of the left foot).   That and we limit it to one strick to the face.  Hoever the circular/arcing motion of the gun and the technique of applying pressure (breaking the finger, etc..) is right on what we do.  Except that we would have the gun maybe a little higher on the body when coming in (as it does things very uncomfrotable to your shoulder in that position, known as 'center lock')

Our instructor is ex-military and ex-police and he's been on both ends of the barrel when it matters.  I tend to take him seriously when he talks about weapon disarms.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 8, 2007)

FearlessFreep said:


> We drill that exact technique(from the video).
> 
> Only difference is 'body evasion'. As your hand is grabbing the gun, slide your body to your left to get your body/face out of the line of fire (pivot slightly on the ball of the left foot).


 

Getting off line is essential!


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## MJS (Jun 8, 2007)

Pretty good clip overall.  Standard Krav Maga disarm in the first clip that was linked.  Usually, a major concern is just what thardey stated regarding the slide of the gun.  The KM line of thought is just what Lawdog stated in his post.  I like the idea of the redirect and hit at the same time.  One thing that concerns me, is the one hand grab.  I'm thinking a redirect and grabbing with two hands, working for control and then disarm would be better.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 8, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Getting off line is essential!



Yup!!!  'Body Evasion' is central to a lot of our defenses against strikes, weapons, etc...  You don't just block the punch, you block the punch and slip at the same time, etc..  (in case you miss the block : )


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## JBrainard (Jun 8, 2007)

thardey said:


> The only real problem that jumps out at me is that if you grab a semi-automatic right over the ejection port, where he does, and the gun goes off, you will get powder burns on your hands, and the force of the slide coming back will tear up your hands as well. The twist of the trigger finger will break it, I'm sure, but will also make the gun go off.
> 
> Try it with an airsoft gun -- the same force that breaks the finger also pulls the trigger, and even if the gun is pointed in a safe direction, your hands are going to be messed up.


 
Better than getting shot, no?
*Sorry for beating a dead horse. Posted this before I read the entire thread.*


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## thardey (Jun 8, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> As for the gasses burning your hand.  That is a small price to pay.



Not that it's a bad technique, it's just something to be aware of. If you're thinking the gun won't go off, and it does, you may pull your hands back to protect them, and lose the advantage you gain. Also, it seems that if you grab (if you have the option) a little behind the ejector port you'll have a better chance of not getting burned.

On my Glock, if the slide is pulled back even slightly, the gun won't go off, is this a practical weakness in this type of scenario? As long as you're holding the slide, could you push it back enough to prevent the hammer from falling? Especially with a two handed grip?


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## jks9199 (Jun 8, 2007)

thardey said:


> Not that it's a bad technique, it's just something to be aware of. If you're thinking the gun won't go off, and it does, you may pull your hands back to protect them, and lose the advantage you gain. Also, it seems that if you grab (if you have the option) a little behind the ejector port you'll have a better chance of not getting burned.
> 
> On my Glock, if the slide is pulled back even slightly, the gun won't go off, is this a practical weakness in this type of scenario? As long as you're holding the slide, could you push it back enough to prevent the hammer from falling? Especially with a two handed grip?


I dislike unarmed self defense techniques against guns that involve any sort of manipulation of the gun to keep it from firing -- even the "classic" shove the web of your thumb under the hammer of a revolver.  There's just too much variance in the specifics of the function of handguns, and the simple fact that a handgun (or any gun) works by containing a violent explosion make me reluctant to really rely on any gimmickry to stop a gun from working.  Get off the line, move inward, and act decisively against the guy pointing the gun at you if you feel you've got to act...  Even better is to get away, find cover, and prepare to return fire with your own gun -- which isn't always an option for some folks, I know.

The best thing to bring to a gun fight is a bigger gun...


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## KenpoTex (Jun 8, 2007)

Just my $0.02 on the "getting burned or cut by the slide" thing...

After hearing this for a long time, I decided to give it a try.  While at the range I grabbed the slide (part of my hand ended up being over the ejection port).  After checking to ensure that no part of my hand was in front of the muzzle, I fired a round downrange.  I tried this with a Glock 19 9mm, a Glock 23 .40 S&W, and a Colt Government Model 1911 in .45 acp.  
Using what I guess I would call "firm handshake pressure" I did not sustain any burns or cuts from any of the weapons.  I would only estimate about 1/8" of slide travel on any of the weapons.  This was obviously not enough to cycle the action or eject the spent case.


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## SKB (Jun 9, 2007)

I agree the first thing is to get out from infront of the little hole in the front of the weapon!!!! The rounds only come out of one spot!!! What bothered me and has not been talked about yet is some of the people on these videos appear to have limited exsperiance handling weapons. Look how they handle them once the weapon is taken away. Most LEOs are trainined by people like the video showing the cop with a gun pointed at him.
"Golly just reach on out here and take the gun from the idiot!" You would realy be surprized if you knew how little and how low quality the training LEOs get. more time is spent on diversity training and computer security!!!


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## thardey (Jun 12, 2007)

kenpotex said:


> Just my $0.02 on the "getting burned or cut by the slide" thing...
> 
> After hearing this for a long time, I decided to give it a try.  While at the range I grabbed the slide (part of my hand ended up being over the ejection port).  After checking to ensure that no part of my hand was in front of the muzzle, I fired a round downrange.  I tried this with a Glock 19 9mm, a Glock 23 .40 S&W, and a Colt Government Model 1911 in .45 acp.
> Using what I guess I would call "firm handshake pressure" I did not sustain any burns or cuts from any of the weapons.  I would only estimate about 1/8" of slide travel on any of the weapons.  This was obviously not enough to cycle the action or eject the spent case.



Well that's good to know! Thanks for taking the risk for the rest of us!

So . . . end result -- one shot fired, no burns, no cuts, and you'd have to manually cycle the slide to get another shot off. Sounds like a worthwhile risk to me -- I retract my former comments.


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