# Is interest in WC declining?



## geezer (Nov 14, 2017)

I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while. And even though we have always been an adult class, the average age seems to go up every year. And I think I'm seeing something similar on this forum. 

Maybe it's just the way things are going lately. Any thoughts?


----------



## jobo (Nov 14, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while. And even though we have always been an adult class, the average age seems to go up every year. And I think I'm seeing something similar on this forum.
> 
> Maybe it's just the way things are going lately. Any thoughts?


don't think its just wc? A lot of arts are being squeezed out by those with better pr. TKD seems to have the kid market sewn up and if they stick with ma, they are likely to stick with tkd, mma has the young male market and bjj the young female market.

every one else's is fighting for scraps and of course wc doesn't help its self by looking silly


----------



## Eric_H (Nov 14, 2017)

Yes, it's in decline right now. Most TMA are going down in a post MMA world, and WC doesn't have a good rep, doesn't have a competition outlet and the only way to get any return on it is to teach it. It's the art history degree of martial arts =/


----------



## geezer (Nov 14, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> ...It's the art history degree of martial arts =/



Ouch. That's pretty much me. BA in social anthropology with a minor in art. Then an MFA in visual arts. The best paying job I had until I was about 40 was the one I got right out of high school. 

Now I'm a high school teacher with 22 years in and "earned PhD" rank ...and I make less than the national median wage. When I retire I'm moving to Mexico so I can afford to eat. Good thing I really like beans and tortillas.


----------



## geezer (Nov 14, 2017)

You know, I even think FMA is declining (I also teach Ecrima). Seems like a lot of the kind of folks that used to take up Escrima are going into HEMA instead. Come to think of it, if real HEMA (not sport fencing and not that SCA stuff) had been around when I was getting started, I might have gone that route myself. 

Fortunately, Escrima is connected to HEMA. I see it (at least what we do) as a global martial art with Filipino and European HEMA roots.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 14, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while.


This is probably a marketing issue.   I only say this because Jow Ga Kung Fu isn't known yet when I do marketing for the school, we see an increase interest.  When I'm not doing marketing for the school, like now. Then there is little interest.  We went from having inquiries every month to 6 months without anyone contacting us about classes.

Not to insult anyone but most Martial Arts school do a really horrible job with market especially online marketing.  

TKD has excellent marketing but for most traditional martial arts schools, it's not the market that we want.  TKD usually addresses child discipline and less function.  Most of us are probably the opposite.  First function and discipline is a by product of training function.  

MMA beats out TMA for the same reasoning; good marketing.  MMA markets functionality.  TMA does not.  There are a lot of other things that TMA does but I can't share because that's a marketing secret for me.  But I will give this much.

Look at your TMA.  Look at how you market yourself and your school.  Ask yourself, "Who cares?"  If you come up with a small market segment then you have identified why there is a loss of interest.

It used to be that Movies promoted TMA, but these days it's going to take a lot more especially for kung fu, who repeated has "kung fu masters" get their butts handed by people who just punch. I think the last 3 "kung fu masters" that I saw were defeated with punches.  They didn't even last long enough for the MMA fighter to use BJJ.  It was simply just punches that anyone can do.  This doesn't give TMA a good image at all and it's difficult to repair an image like that.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 14, 2017)

geezer said:


> You know, I even think FMA is declining (I also teach Ecrima). Seems like a lot of the kind of folks that used to take up Escrima are going into HEMA instead. Come to think of it, if real HEMA (not sport fencing and not that SCA stuff) had been around when I was getting started, I might have gone that route myself.
> 
> Fortunately, Escrima is connected to HEMA. I see it (at least what we do) as a global martial art with Filipino and European HEMA roots.


HEMA biggest attraction is probably that it's European Based.  This brings to mind right away the image of knights, honor, valor, heroes, battles, warriors, and other awesome conceptions and ideas that we may have about that time period.   It's difficult to compete with that, especially if people are seeing it as an ethnic identity that is a part of their ancestral identity.  With TMA we have non Asian embracing Asian Cultures.   With HEMA you have people of European descent embrace, European Culture.  By that definition alone I should have more pull towards Capoiera than Chinese Martial Arts.  I think the only reason I don't is because.  I already know my historical culture and I have a natural interest and enjoyment of exploring cultures that aren't mine.  I think this is the exception and not the rule.  Most people's comfort is with their own because it's something they can identify with.  For people like me, we like to play outside of the box and our life often reflects that willingness to go beyond our own culture.

I personally think HEMA is cool and of value, to the point that I hope other cultures will look back and to the same with some of their forgotten fighting systems.


----------



## Eric_H (Nov 14, 2017)

geezer said:


> Ouch. That's pretty much me. BA in social anthropology with a minor in art. Then an MFA in visual arts. The best paying job I had until I was about 40 was the one I got right out of high school.



As someone with a B.A. I can relate. Let me know how Mexico turns out


----------



## wckf92 (Nov 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> ...and of course wc doesn't help its self by looking silly



good you had to add that last bit eh  
well done lad...golf clap...


----------



## MA_Student (Nov 14, 2017)

Fact is a lot of people don't do martial arts to learn martial arts. They do it more for a workout than for fighting and things like boxing and Muay Thai etc will mostly (not the case with everyone) be way more intense than a traditional class e.g karate, wing chun etc. I train 3 styles and by far the karate is easily the easiest class physically I mean sometimes I feel like it's a waste of time washing my gi as we don't sweat at all. There's to much theoretical stuff and talking about principles of motion and things like that and frankly that stuffs boring to a lot of people. They want to sweat, they want to spar. I bet this will bring up the argument of not being personal trainers etc but well you can't argue with how things are right now. 

These days people these muscular athletes with 6 packs and bulging muscles in mma/ boxing gtmsmetc and then they go to wing chun class and see a middle aged guy with a stomach on him. They'll choose to train with the in shape guy. I'm not saying that's the best idea because when it comes to teaching body type doesn't really matter but to a new guy whi doesn't know a punch from a kick it does matter that's just society today.

Also Im not saying all traditional places are theoretical and don't work hard as I know that's not the case but that's the reputation it has.


----------



## geezer (Nov 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> ... and of course wc doesn't help its self by looking _silly_



OK _Jobo_, now you made wckf92 mad. Bad Jobo! 

Oh well. What you said is true enough. I remember the first WC class I watched back in 1979. When I saw poon-sau being practiced (without understanding what it was for) I actually had to stifle a laugh. Same for their sparring.

Still, after researching the system a bit, I decided to give it a try, and soon got hooked. I don't know if I'd make the same choice again if I were a young guy looking to start MA training, especially given the options available today. Actually, I rather doubt it.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is probably a marketing issue.   I only say this because Jow Ga Kung Fu isn't known yet when I do marketing for the school, we see an increase interest.  When I'm not doing marketing for the school, like now. Then there is little interest.  We went from having inquiries every month to 6 months without anyone contacting us about classes.
> 
> Not to insult anyone but most Martial Arts school do a really horrible job with market especially online marketing.
> 
> ...



Yet the RSBD crowd get away with not being able to fight. And some of those guys charge through the nose.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> HEMA biggest attraction is probably that it's European Based.  This brings to mind right away the image of knights, honor, valor, heroes, battles, warriors, and other awesome conceptions and ideas that we may have about that time period.   It's difficult to compete with that, especially if people are seeing it as an ethnic identity that is a part of their ancestral identity.  With TMA we have non Asian embracing Asian Cultures.   With HEMA you have people of European descent embrace, European Culture.  By that definition alone I should have more pull towards Capoiera than Chinese Martial Arts.  I think the only reason I don't is because.  I already know my historical culture and I have a natural interest and enjoyment of exploring cultures that aren't mine.  I think this is the exception and not the rule.  Most people's comfort is with their own because it's something they can identify with.  For people like me, we like to play outside of the box and our life often reflects that willingness to go beyond our own culture.
> 
> I personally think HEMA is cool and of value, to the point that I hope other cultures will look back and to the same with some of their forgotten fighting systems.



HEMA actually fight. If I was going to do a weapon art it would be HEMA because their validation Methods are the same as mine.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yet the RSBD crowd get away with not being able to fight. And some of those guys charge through the nose.


Two reasons for that.
1: They aren't getting into _any_ televised fights, so people don't know if they are bad.
2: They still market functionality even if they don't fight. In fact (in general), they market a functionality that they state you can't test in a ring fight. No clue if that's accurate, or beneficial, just what I've seen from there marketing.
As a side, I'm sure there are RSBD that do fight, although not sure how many do official competitions.


----------



## Steve (Nov 14, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Two reasons for that.
> 1: They aren't getting into _any_ televised fights, so people don't know if they are bad.
> 2: They still market functionality even if they don't fight. In fact (in general), they market a functionality that they state you can't test in a ring fight. No clue if that's accurate, or beneficial, just what I've seen from there marketing.
> As a side, I'm sure there are RSBD that do fight, although not sure how many do official competitions.


You’re sure?  Or are you giving the benefit of the doubt?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yet the RSBD crowd get away with not being able to fight. And some of those guys charge through the nose.


 I think RSBD is a different animal all together.  But I'm sure they will go through the same filter.   Right now it's called RSBD, but what will it call when the quantity of bad RSBD instruction is larger than those who do valid RSBD?  Probably the name will change and the cycle will restart again.  

We kind of already see this with stuff like, Combat TKD, Functional TKD, and Combat Tai Chi. I agree with you thought.  I've seen some RSBD stuff that made my skin crawl, both from the techniques being used and from the cost.



drop bear said:


> HEMA actually fight.


Some kung fu schools do it.  Not many.   I think more will do it once the weapon amor development gets better.  

If I had the cash I would be wearing this and doing weapon sparring at least once a week


----------



## drop bear (Nov 14, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Two reasons for that.
> 1: They aren't getting into _any_ televised fights, so people don't know if they are bad.
> 2: They still market functionality even if they don't fight. In fact (in general), they market a functionality that they state you can't test in a ring fight. No clue if that's accurate, or beneficial, just what I've seen from there marketing.
> As a side, I'm sure there are RSBD that do fight, although not sure how many do official competitions.



They still have that deadly without effort appeal. Which is what the mass market wants. I mean even in the MMA world people all want to be fighters. They just don't want to train hard.


----------



## wckf92 (Nov 14, 2017)

When you guys say RSBD...are you really meaning RBSD(?)


----------



## Blindside (Nov 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> HEMA actually fight. If I was going to do a weapon art it would be HEMA because their validation Methods are the same as mine.



Actually some of HEMA guys spar, depends on the crowd.  I fought in a HEMA tournament last weekend and got to hang out with the tournament director after.  He said that actually many HEMA groups don't spar because, you know tournaments don't reflect the "real fight" and you don't see people pull off the techniques that are in the manuals very often.  He calls those guys HEMA-lite.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 14, 2017)

Steve said:


> You’re sure?  Or are you giving the benefit of the doubt?


The second one.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 14, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> When you guys say RSBD...are you really meaning RBSD(?)


Yup. We all got combined dyslexia.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 14, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> When you guys say RSBD...are you really meaning RBSD(?)


lol.. yeah that.  RBSD


----------



## VPT (Nov 15, 2017)

AFAIK, Scandinavian Defendo (check that out) has developed a competition format for those people who are competitive and like to match themselves against others. It's called Defendo Duellum, I think?

It came out maybe a year or two ago, but I don't know how much they have been implementing that competitive framework.


----------



## Cephalopod (Nov 17, 2017)

Eerily prescient...

A thread about the decline of interest in wing chun and then no post on the  board for 2 whole days!


----------



## geezer (Nov 17, 2017)

Cephalopod said:


> Eerily prescient...
> 
> A thread about the decline of interest in wing chun and then no post on the  board for 2 whole days!



Yeah. And it's not just me. Where are the other regular contributors lately?

As for myself, I'm kind of in a quandry. Some health issues are keeping me from being as physical as I'd like to be, and as I _need_ to be ...that is unless I'm content to be an armchair coach.

Hopefully it's a temporary situation. Although_ some_ of it may be age-related. And_ that's_ not something that goes away. In fact it usually gets worse ...since not too many people start getting younger every year!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 17, 2017)

geezer said:


> _some_ of it may be age-related. And_ that's_ not something that goes away. In fact it usually gets worse ...since not too many people start getting younger every year!


Always remember that if you don't use it, you may lose it forever. How to "develop" MA is important. How to "maintain" your MA ability is even more important.


----------



## Cephalopod (Nov 17, 2017)

geezer said:


> Yeah. And it's not just me. Where are the other regular contributors lately?
> 
> As for myself, I'm kind of in a quandry. Some health issues are keeping me from being as physical as I'd like to be, and as I _need_ to be ...that is unless I'm content to be an armchair coach.
> 
> Hopefully it's a temporary situation. Although_ some_ of it may be age-related. And_ that's_ not something that goes away. In fact it usually gets worse ...since not too many people start getting younger every year!



I hear your pain.
I'm at that point in life where I feel a sudden inexorable decline in my physicality...
...and then all my older friends tell me that it's actually in another 5 years that things _really_ start to fall apart.
Yeah. Thanks guys.


As for wing chun, I've always seen it as the slightly goofy tech nerd at the MA party. He's not going to grab everyone's attention and sweep up the ladies like the bad boys manning the keg, but you should probably be cool with him 'cause he might be the next Bill Gates.


----------



## yak sao (Nov 17, 2017)

geezer said:


> yu
> Hopefully it's a temporary situation. Although_ some_ of it may be age-related. And_ that's_ not something that goes away. In fact it usually gets worse ...



oh it goes away... Eventually


----------



## geezer (Nov 18, 2017)

geezer said:


> ....When I retire I'm moving to Mexico so I can afford to eat. Good thing I really like beans and tortillas.



I really ought to clarify this remark, 'cause outta context it would sound racist as all heck. That was not my intent. It's just that beans and tortillas with a little cheese and salsa, and maybe an occasional cerveza are about all I will be able to afford.

I also like really sophisticated Mexican cuisine. We've got a place here called _Barrio Cafe _that serves world class stuff, or as their motto states: _Pura Comida Chingona_ !!!  I can't translate that on this forum though, as it's a bit vulgar ...in a light-hearted way. Also, there are some great places specializing in _mariscos_ around here. Delicious. But I can't afford _that_ kind of food on a daily basis.


----------



## Vajramusti (Nov 18, 2017)

geezer said:


> people


--------------
The list is not an exact sample of the wing chun world.Fewer posts in some places >But in some places like Macao- good Ip Man wing chun has actually increased.


----------



## geezer (Nov 18, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------
> The list is not an exact sample of the wing chun world.Fewer posts in some places >But in some places like Macao- good Ip Man wing chun has actually increased.



That's good news, Joy. That's why I brought up this subject. I want to get a glimpse of the larger picture. I find myself pretty isolated with my little group out here in Central Phoenix. Our core group in strong, but gradually dwindling as people eventually move on with their lives. That's to be expected. The problem is that I've been getting almost _no new inquiries_ about WC.  I'm hoping that your group over by the University is getting more interest.


----------



## yak sao (Nov 18, 2017)

Isolated???
Try getting people to train WC in a small town in Kentucky!


----------



## marques (Nov 19, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while. And even though we have always been an adult class, the average age seems to go up every year. And I think I'm seeing something similar on this forum.
> 
> Maybe it's just the way things are going lately. Any thoughts?


I feel like the interest in martial arts is decreasing in general. MMA (and related MA) seems the exception, but I am not sure if it is helping or competing with other martial arts.


----------



## geezer (Nov 19, 2017)

marques said:


> I feel like the interest in martial arts is decreasing in general. MMA (and related MA) seems the exception, but I am not sure if it is helping or competing with other martial arts.



MMA appeals to a particular, down-to-earth athletic crowd, and it's physicality, and ring-tested practicality have definitely taken the competitive "jock" element away from TMA. But another, bigger segment of the population that got into TMA, especially the more _esoteric_ martial arts, were the smart, nerdy, and not-so physically competitive types that enjoyed the (cringe) fantasy of being a warrior, ...a samurai, ...a ninja, ...or a shaolin monk. Say what you will about this group, but they kept the TMA schools running, and some, with experience, actually transcended the _wu-xia _fantasy aspect and learned how to fight.. ...or perhaps discovered that they had that potential within themselves. 

Nowadays, Asian martial arts have lost a lot of that "magical" mystique. China, for example, is no longer seen as an exotic place with secret traditions inaccessibly hidden behind the "bamboo curtain". Instead, it is the place that makes most of our manufactured goods and is seen as a unwelcome competitor in the global economy! The 1970s-1980s fascination with their philosophy, traditional healing methods, and mysterious martial arts is pretty much gone. And the fact that good MMA guys seem to effortlessly dispatch the TMA purists hasn't helped.

Of-course there still are a lot of nerdy folks out there that could still fill our ranks, but they have so many other outlets these days ...cosplay and larping, or if they are a little more physical, they'll try HEMA since it has really cool swords and stuff, or, if they tend to be couch potatoes,_ they will just play video games. 
_
Honestly, I think _MMA took away our athletes, and gaming took away the nerds_ that have been keeping us going. The majority of those left are older guys (yes, mostly _guys_) who got hooked on TMA back in the '70s and '80s. And that doesn't bode well for the future of what we do.


----------



## yak sao (Nov 19, 2017)

Maybe, (hopefully), we are at, or at least nearing the point where the pendulum will start to swing in the other direction.

A few years back I was having lunch with a hung gar instructor who made a comment that stuck with me. He told me he was almost embarrassed to tell people he did MA, because it had the stereotype of people running around in pajamas, kids with black belts and people who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.

That was around the same time I stopped marketing my WT group as kung fu and started referring to it as Chinese Boxing
The term Kung fu can carry a lot of baggage but everyone respects boxing.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2017)

geezer said:


> MMA appeals to a particular, down-to-earth athletic crowd, and it's physicality, and ring-tested practicality have definitely taken the competitive "jock" element away from TMA. But another, bigger segment of the population that got into TMA, especially the more _esoteric_ martial arts, were the smart, nerdy, and not-so physically competitive types that enjoyed the (cringe) fantasy of being a warrior, ...a samurai, ...a ninja, ...or a shaolin monk. Say what you will about this group, but they kept the TMA schools running, and some, with experience, actually transcended the _wu-xia _fantasy aspect and learned how to fight.. ...or perhaps discovered that they had that potential within themselves.
> 
> Nowadays, Asian martial arts have lost a lot of that "magical" mystique. China, for example, is no longer seen as an exotic place with secret traditions inaccessibly hidden behind the "bamboo curtain". Instead, it is the place that makes most of our manufactured goods and is seen as a unwelcome competitor in the global economy! The 1970s-1980s fascination with their philosophy, traditional healing methods, and mysterious martial arts is pretty much gone. And the fact that good MMA guys seem to effortlessly dispatch the TMA purists hasn't helped.
> 
> ...


BJJ has plenty of nerds too.


----------



## yak sao (Nov 19, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> BJJ has plenty of nerds too.



Don't be so hard on yourself Tony


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2017)

yak sao said:


> Don't be so hard on yourself Tony


I'm a nerd and proud of it.


----------



## geezer (Nov 19, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> BJJ has plenty of nerds too.




Yeah, maybe that's why I find it appealing as well. If I weren't dealing with joint issues it would be my next art. Definitely.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 19, 2017)

geezer said:


> MMA appeals to a particular, down-to-earth athletic crowd, and it's physicality, and ring-tested practicality have definitely taken the competitive "jock" element away from TMA.



Yet BJJ attracts nerds.

And is still competitive and stupid hard.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 19, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> BJJ has plenty of nerds too.



You got in first. Sorry.


----------



## geezer (Nov 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You got in first. Sorry.



So Tony got there first. Still, your additional point about BJJ being _competitive and hard_ is important. I believe this is what is missing from WC. We don't have to be MMA. Jits isn't MMA either. But you guys have meaningful competition that tests your skill set. This is what WC needs to evolve and be both real and relevant.

....So we _WC guys _need to be clear and define exactly what our _game_, our _skill set,_ is (no more delusions about WC being a "complete" martial art for all ranges, please!) and come up with a competitive format that tests _our_ game.


----------



## Eric_H (Nov 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> ....So we _WC guys _need to be clear and define exactly what our _game_, our _skill set,_ is (no more delusions about WC being a "complete" martial art for all ranges, please!) and come up with a competitive format that tests _our_ game.



My teacher came up with a fun format about 10 years ago, it was bridge arm (Kiu Sao) rolling that could exit either to chi sao or sparring. You earned points by jumping the circuit (successful change to one of the other modes) where the other guy couldn't keep up, or by dominating in the current circuit (landing controlled strike/showing the following hand not just tippy tap). The intent was to have a forum that we could compete with other southern CMA like Hung Kuen, Bak Mei and Lung Ying where everyone had a chance and could keep each other honest without going in to full out fighting.  Never caught on though, even internally.


----------



## Steve (Nov 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> MMA appeals to a particular, down-to-earth athletic crowd, and it's physicality, and ring-tested practicality have definitely taken the competitive "jock" element away from TMA. But another, bigger segment of the population that got into TMA, especially the more _esoteric_ martial arts, were the smart, nerdy, and not-so physically competitive types that enjoyed the (cringe) fantasy of being a warrior, ...a samurai, ...a ninja, ...or a shaolin monk. Say what you will about this group, but they kept the TMA schools running, and some, with experience, actually transcended the _wu-xia _fantasy aspect and learned how to fight.. ...or perhaps discovered that they had that potential within themselves.
> 
> Nowadays, Asian martial arts have lost a lot of that "magical" mystique. China, for example, is no longer seen as an exotic place with secret traditions inaccessibly hidden behind the "bamboo curtain". Instead, it is the place that makes most of our manufactured goods and is seen as a unwelcome competitor in the global economy! The 1970s-1980s fascination with their philosophy, traditional healing methods, and mysterious martial arts is pretty much gone. And the fact that good MMA guys seem to effortlessly dispatch the TMA purists hasn't helped.
> 
> ...


So many nerds in BJJ.  BJJ actually appeals to nerds in a big way.  Edit...  I should have read a little bit further in the thread.  Lol.


----------



## Steve (Nov 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> So Tony got there first. Still, your additional point about BJJ being _competitive and hard_ is important. I believe this is what is missing from WC. We don't have to be MMA. Jits isn't MMA either. But you guys have meaningful competition that tests your skill set. This is what WC needs to evolve and be both real and relevant.
> 
> ....So we _WC guys _need to be clear and define exactly what our _game_, our _skill set,_ is (no more delusions about WC being a "complete" martial art for all ranges, please!) and come up with a competitive format that tests _our_ game.


Thing is, you can train without competition.   Guys don’t really care if you’re there just for fitness or whatever.   You’ll just need to be okay getting rolled up, and also with other people progressing much faster.  

But I agree with you that a competitive outlet or outlets will allow you to apply your technique.   I believe the overall skill level will improve, but you will see the art evolve toward the rule set.


----------



## Danny T (Nov 20, 2017)

Steve said:


> but you will see the art evolve toward the rule set.


Yep.


----------



## Steve (Nov 20, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Yep.


Better than the alternative, which is like playing air guitar.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 20, 2017)

Steve said:


> but you will see the art evolve toward the rule set.


If the WC sticky hand rule set can be set as whoever can put his

- right hand on top of his opponent's left elbow joint (or left upper arm), and
- left hand on top of his opponent's right elbow joint (or right upper arm),

he wins that round, and that round is over, The WC sticky hand training can be used to develop good wrestling skill.







In the following picture, the guy on the

- left has his right hand on top of his opponent's upper arm.
- right has his left hand on top of his opponent's upper arm.

This kind of hand position is important. You want your hand to be

- on top of your opponent's arm, and
- inside of his arm.

In other words, you want to make contact on your opponent's elbow joint (or upper arm). You don't want just to deal with his forearm. This will force you to deal with the "clinching" range.


----------



## VPT (Nov 21, 2017)

Steve said:


> Better than the alternative, which is like playing air guitar.



Do you have something against air guitar?


----------



## VPT (Nov 21, 2017)

I agree with several points here. Most trad arts should at least engage in proper analysis of _what are the core features and skills of the art_, ie. what are the bread and butter techniques you need to use the most in a sparring setting, what are the footwork patterns and how you apply them in a living environment and how you make your stuff _work. 
_
It cannot be avoided thay when a certain competitive rule set is applied, the practice of training tends to direct itself towards most efficient optimization of actions, tactics and techniques in that given rule set. That's why designing the rules are extremely important. Look at boxing: everything that is sub-optimal to do wearing oversized puffed mittens has been long removed from the practice.

Kickboxing has then developed a modified boxing technique and strategy, which makes your legs less vulnerable; something you never had to worry about in boxing. The clinch that boxers and kickboxers would resort to as a "safe space" is that no longer in Muay Thai. MT rules, however, disallow certain grabbing and throwing actions, so you don't have to worry about them in your clinch strategy, but enter MMA and they suddenly become a genuine threat, forcing you to scale back on some aspects of your Muay Thai clinch game. The list goes on...

Where is Wing Chun and most other kungfu then best at? Barefist knuckle simulation, which allows chi sau _range_ grappling as well as throwing. Ironically, MMA rules might actually get very close, ground level wrestling removed. This would then require kung fu athletes to develop ways of applicable fighting strategies based on the principles of _their _arts and training methodologies for them, emphasizing certain patterns over others. This kind of evolution just might irritate some more traditionally inclined individuals, but I would like that as an evolution or an update of the pre-sport science training regimes.

BTW, I started training MMA few weeks back. It has been a real eye opener.


----------



## VPT (Nov 21, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> My teacher came up with a fun format about 10 years ago, it was bridge arm (Kiu Sao) rolling that could exit either to chi sao or sparring. You earned points by jumping the circuit (successful change to one of the other modes) where the other guy couldn't keep up, or by dominating in the current circuit (landing controlled strike/showing the following hand not just tippy tap). The intent was to have a forum that we could compete with other southern CMA like Hung Kuen, Bak Mei and Lung Ying where everyone had a chance and could keep each other honest without going in to full out fighting.  Never caught on though, even internally.



I can see why that never took off. It sounds more like an extension of the game that chi sau is instead of an unconstrained application of skills that sparring offers. Oh, what is kiu sau rolling?


----------



## KPM (Nov 21, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while. And even though we have always been an adult class, the average age seems to go up every year. And I think I'm seeing something similar on this forum.
> 
> Maybe it's just the way things are going lately. Any thoughts?



The people that just want to do something physical, get in a work out, be part of a group, get out of the house, etc...... have yoga, Tai Chi, zumba, gym membership, pilates, etc to choose from.  A LOT more choices than just 10 years ago.  The people that want to learn to defend themselves, to fight, to "kick ***", to feel like a martial arts movie star, etc.....now have multiple kickboxing, MMA and BJJ classes to choose from.  ALL of these will be more appealing than traditional martial arts simply because they can demonstrate effectiveness right away in sparring.  The typical "Joe off the street" can watch one of those classes and see it being used effectively.  So yeah.  I think we are going to see a decline in ALL traditional martial arts including Wing Chun.  Because its becoming tougher and tougher for them to compete in the marketplace.


----------



## Steve (Nov 21, 2017)

VPT said:


> Do you have something against air guitar?


LOL.    Being serious, absolutely not, if air guitar is your goal.  If the goal is to be really good at air guitar, you are all set.  If the goal is to be really good at playing an actual guitar, you aren't going to make a lot of progress.

Probably a more apropos analogy would be learning to play an actual guitar by practicing continually on a guitar that has no strings.  You practice the fingering and the strumming, but never actually get a feel for what real strings look like, never develop the callouses or the feel for how to use the pick.  You might be a little ahead of a person who's never held a guitar at all, but there is a functional limit on how far you can progress.

But if you decide that playing an actual guitar isn't really the goal.  Instead, you're learning to play a stringless, silent guitar, then THAT will become the new application.  You will probably find a lot of meaning in it, and may eventually decide that everything you need is there.  No need for strings or music.  If you play long enough, and become a master of stringless guitar, the music will be there when necessary.

Taking this analogy even further, there are varying types of application within martial arts: cops, bouncers, MMA, security guards, etc.  The skills are similar and can cross over with some effort, but are not exactly the same.  Similarly, people who actually play guitars don't all play the same kind of guitar:  12 string, 6 string, 4 string (tenor).  And there are different applications, from classical to mariacci to jazz to blues to rock and roll and all other kinds of variations.  Can Ottmar Liebert play the blues?  I don't know.  Maybe... but it's not a given because there is different application, in the same way that a pro MMA fighter can't just be a cop or a cop can't just be a bouncer.

My core point here is simply that I think if you guys are interested in promoting the style, think about what your stated application is.  What are you selling?  Self defense?  Fighting skill?  Health and fitness?  What is it? 

And then think about what you are actually able to apply.  Do they match?  If there is no functional application, then consider how you might fill that void so that the style doesn't auto-cannibalize.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while. And even though we have always been an adult class, the average age seems to go up every year. And I think I'm seeing something similar on this forum.
> 
> Maybe it's just the way things are going lately. Any thoughts?



I apologize, I did not read every post in this thread before I posted this, and maybe this has already been mentioned.

All it takes is another "Good" Ip Man movie and the popularity will return. This is why many marital arts get popular, they are in the media. But eventually, that popularity will fade


----------



## Eric_H (Nov 21, 2017)

VPT said:


> I can see why that never took off. It sounds more like an extension of the game that chi sau is instead of an unconstrained application of skills that sparring offers. Oh, what is kiu sau rolling?



And therein lies the problem with "standardizing WC." For us, Chi Sao isn't a game or looping sensitivity exercise, it's touch based combat response. We don't roll like any of the yip man branches do. Someone with the viewpoint you've expressed would probably look at what we're doing and say "That's not chi sao."

Kiu Sao Rolling is a set of different single and double armed platforms, more based on forearm leverage and facing changes than on Taan, Bong and Fuk.


----------



## VPT (Nov 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> My core point here is simply that I think if you guys are interested in promoting the style, think about what your stated application is.  What are you selling?  Self defense?  Fighting skill?  Health and fitness?  What is it?
> 
> And then think about what you are actually able to apply.  Do they match?  If there is no functional application, then consider how you might fill that void so that the style doesn't auto-cannibalize.



This is extremely important. If you want people to train what you are selling, you should coach them into doing it in a manner that is effective based on the requirements of that goal. If you are training for sports, you should spend less time in dealing with over-committed right-hand lunging punches with extended arms and start to worry about jabs, feinted punches and moving opponents. If you are training for good self-defence, you should include scenario training, psychology, judicial knowledge and only focus on the common social and non-social forms of violence and perpetrator behavior. For the attacks, you should have one tried, tested and true response (or max 2) that you spend lots of time drilling on. From an RBSD perspective looking at Wing Chun, you don't even need any forms or neither would they direct you towards improvement in self-defence. You should also ditch maybe 75 % or more of the individual techniques you know.

If you are selling Wing Chun either as health or as fitness, in the case of former, you should be able to come up with and explain all the benefits that training Wing Chun can bring ("chi sau is a form of meditation/ training the SLT strengthens your joints and improves posture"); in the case of latter, people should get sweaty, tired and happy. But then again, why would people choose Wing Chun instead of yoga, taiji, pilates, crossfit, or the gym?


----------



## VPT (Nov 22, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> And therein lies the problem with "standardizing WC." For us, Chi Sao isn't a game or looping sensitivity exercise, it's touch based combat response. We don't roll like any of the yip man branches do. Someone with the viewpoint you've expressed would probably look at what we're doing and say "That's not chi sao."
> 
> Kiu Sao Rolling is a set of different single and double armed platforms, more based on forearm leverage and facing changes than on Taan, Bong and Fuk.



I've always thought that chi sau gets hard as soon as punches are pulled. Which lineage do you train in?

Oh, BTW, based on my training, Bak Mei does not have chi sau/kiu sau/kakie training. It _kinda_ goes against the style.


----------



## Cephalopod (Nov 22, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> We don't roll like any of the yip man branches do.


Alright, you piqued my curiosity with that one!
I assume that your not referring to your kiu sao rolling as you said above that it didn't catch on.
I've seen and felt some pretty huge variations of chi sao within the Ip Man sphere. Can you elaborate on how yours is different? Thanks!


----------



## TMA17 (Nov 22, 2017)

I can't really add much to this other than to say I joined this forum because I developed an interest in WC at the age of 41.  I grew up playing sports and always enjoyed boxing.  I remember watching UFC when it first came out in High School.  A friend brought over the first few UFC matches on VHS.  I was so curious and interested in it because growing up in the 80's, Bruce Lee was the guy.....it was really exciting to watch all the styles go head to head.

Once Gracie/BJJ dominated, along with wrestling, my view of traditional type arts changed.  After spending a few months on here however, I look at things differently once again.

MMA has certainly cut into boxing and traditional martial arts markets.  It's starting to even influence the Chinese.  My thoughts though are you can make any style work if you practice it hard enough.  It also ultimately comes down to what you are seeking from an art - self defense, hobby, conditioning etc.  

I have stopped going to my WC school for now.  I was going to try another one in Philly ,but am holding off for the time being.  I'm current trying out yet another MMA gym that does Muay Thai/BJJ and Crossfit (no interest in that).  I definitely plan on going back to WC at some point.  Right now MT is what I'm enjoying most.  I like the contact and physical nature of it.  What I really liked about WC were the forms.  They are very fun to practice.  WC is an awesome art.  And even with its flaws, which all arts have, it has a lot to offer as most arts do, whether traditional or not.  At the end of the day it's all movements...

I want to also add that I think what Adam Chan does is fantastic for WC.  I think he as a person, Sifu and his views on WC are outstanding.


----------



## Eric_H (Nov 24, 2017)

VPT said:


> I've always thought that chi sau gets hard as soon as punches are pulled. Which lineage do you train in?
> 
> Oh, BTW, based on my training, Bak Mei does not have chi sau/kiu sau/kakie training. It _kinda_ goes against the style.



I'm a Hung Fa Yi guy, and yeah it does get harder, then it complicates if you have people not respecting the hands, which is common.

You'd know better than I if you've trained Bak Mei, I've only ever had conversations with guys from Zhong Lo's school and Eddie Chong's.



Cephalopod said:


> Alright, you piqued my curiosity with that one!
> I assume that your not referring to your kiu sao rolling as you said above that it didn't catch on.
> I've seen and felt some pretty huge variations of chi sao within the Ip Man sphere. Can you elaborate on how yours is different? Thanks!



Kiu Sao is a major part of our system, that particular "game" didn't catch on, but Kiu Sao as a platform/strategy is our bread and butter. Our line's view on Chi Sao is mostly that it's something you use to counter an opponent's skill (he neutralizes or breaks your kiu sao) or because you got caught unawares (You're a beat behind and need to stick/stabilize) or you're using it as a strategy (2 hand trapping).

My time in the Moy Yat clan showed me this progression:
Saan Sau/Free application-> Single hand Dan Chi Sao -> Jip Sao Jau Sao -> Poon Sao -> Luk Sao -> Toi Ma -> Change ups and traps -> Advanced topics (energy usage, chi na, whatever).

I think that's relatively standard, with certain lineage specific variations (VT guys put Lat Sao in the mix etc).

Hung Fa Yi tends to follow a different set of guidelines for chi sao training, keep in mind I might have this a bit off, I'm still learning:

Intercepting -> Kiu Sao Engagement -> Kiu Sao Rolling/Varying Platforms (think I've learned about 20 or so of them)-> Chi Kiu (Sliding the bridge) -> 4-Gate Ying Jong Faat Chi Sao -> 3 Gate Chi Sao -> Reference Point Tahn Bong Fuk Chi Sao (Single Hand) -> Chi Kiu Chi Sao (2 handed) -> Saam Sing Jong Tahn Bong Fuk Chi Sao (1 or 2 handed)-> Tahn Bong Fuk Chi Sao Trapping Hands (2 Handed).

As for the specifics of how they're different in application, I'd need to be face to face w/ you to show it. It's just not something that's easily explainable over text. The rubric of what's considered "good structure" is just vastly different between the two systems.


----------



## VPT (Nov 24, 2017)

Zhong Luo and Eddie Chong both train in Fatsan Bak Mei stemming from a fella called Lau Siu Leung , which claims no connection to Cheung Lai Cheng (which is hardly even possible). I believe the Fatsan style is a mix of Choy Lee Fut and CLC Bak Mei.


----------



## Juany118 (Nov 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> HEMA actually fight. If I was going to do a weapon art it would be HEMA because their validation Methods are the same as mine.



The thing is FMA actually fights as well (just mentioning because of the original reference.)  You have the "traditional" competitions and then the Dog Brothers Gatherings etc.  I wouldn't say that HEMA is about knights and stuff though.  I think it is more because people often look to TMA's as a way to connect with their History and so as HEMA becomes more established it seems only natural for people who live in Regions connected to Europe to want to learn a European Martial Art.  

That said while HEMA is arguably taking from the FMA crowd I think that both are kinda niche.  They both include empty hand techniques but are largely, in competition, focused on the weapons.  Weapons based martial arts will always be less popular because people think, in terms of self defense, "how often will I be walking down the street with a stick/sword".  They don't realize, unless they actually walk in the door, that

A. there is empty hand and many of the armed principles can be applied to empty hand.
B. if you are aware of your environment you can often find an analogue of the weapon you trained with.  
C. just being in a pressure testing/competitive environment is excellent for helping you come out the other side of a violent encounter in one piece, even if you can't use the precise techniques you trained.


----------



## Juany118 (Nov 27, 2017)

To the original point I think it has A LOT to do with how WC trains.  I will use TKD as a counter example.  Yeah TKD has the "McDojo" rap BUT they spar, have competitions etc.  On the other hand many WC schools stop at light sparring, if they even get that far.  Now people may send their kids to martial arts schools for fitness, discipline etc BUT most people I know, when paying their own dime, are taking a martial art to learn how to fight and if the "fight" isn't in the school, people walk away and word of that gets around.


----------



## Andrew Green (Nov 27, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while. And even though we have always been an adult class, the average age seems to go up every year. And I think I'm seeing something similar on this forum.
> 
> Maybe it's just the way things are going lately. Any thoughts?



Couple things to consider first:

Everything has changed in marketing.  15 years ago if you had a big yellow pages ad you'd get calls.  That's no longer the case at all.

Do you have Facebook? Instagram?  Are they active?  Do you have online reviews?  

Take this for example:  

*"Ving Tsun Arizona* offers quality instruction in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) kung fu in the Phoenix metro area. Classes are taught under the direction of *Sifu Steve Frerichs*, an instructor with more than 45 years of experience in the martial arts. As an affiliate of the *National Ving Tsun Organization*, *Ving Tsun Arizona* is also host to periodic seminars taught by the NVTO chief-instructor, *Master Jeff Webb*."

No one cares.  

Well, almost no one, people with a martial arts background looking for specifically what you do might, but beginners won't.  It's just words they don't know and people the've never heard of.

What will your services do for them, that's what they want to know.  Not your family tree, only MA nerds care about that.

All that said, it might be.  I don't know, not really involved in WT at all.  Bruce Lee probably gave it a big boost, that is likely worn off, the Ip Man movies might have given it a bit of a boost too.  But the reality is the style isn't really that important as 99% of the people in the country don't know the difference between styles when they first walk through the door anyways.  

Truth is most people are going to think of you as "Karate" no matter what you actually teach until you teach them otherwise


----------



## Blindside (Nov 28, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> The thing is FMA actually fights as well (just mentioning because of the original reference.)  You have the "traditional" competitions and then the Dog Brothers Gatherings etc.  I wouldn't say that HEMA is about knights and stuff though.  I think it is more because people often look to TMA's as a way to connect with their History and so as HEMA becomes more established it seems only natural for people who live in Regions connected to Europe to want to learn a European Martial Art.



Honestly at this point I think HEMA is eclipsing FMA in terms of visibility and growth.  The online groups are very active and constantly discussing different items and research and tournaments.  FMA online is just dead, guys promoting a bunch of seminars of their grandmasters and a couple of vids.  Tournaments, in my area (the Pacific Northwest, being generous lets call it Washington, Oregon, Vancouver BC, and Idaho) there is one stickfighting event that is aimed solely at the FMA crowd that is part of a karate tournament and two light armor weapon fighting events that are open to all weapon systems (Beat the Crap Out of Cancer, Warrior Tipon-Tipon).  In comparison there will be six HEMA tournaments in the same region put on by various schools.


----------



## Juany118 (Nov 28, 2017)

Blindside said:


> Honestly at this point I think HEMA is eclipsing FMA in terms of visibility and growth.  The online groups are very active and constantly discussing different items and research and tournaments.  FMA online is just dead, guys promoting a bunch of seminars of their grandmasters and a couple of vids.  Tournaments, in my area (the Pacific Northwest, being generous lets call it Washington, Oregon, Vancouver BC, and Idaho) there is one stickfighting event that is aimed solely at the FMA crowd that is part of a karate tournament and two light armor weapon fighting events that are open to all weapon systems (Beat the Crap Out of Cancer, Warrior Tipon-Tipon).  In comparison there will be six HEMA tournaments in the same region put on by various schools.


Oh I agree on that point entirely.  My main thrust (pun intended) was to point out FMA has the fighting/competitions vs just training so the lack there of doesn't seem to be the issue.  I think the larger issue is people wanting to feel a connection to their own cultural history through the Martial Arts and since far more people in NA draw a connection Ultimately to Europe than the Philippines, the dynamic you note seems a natural consequence.


----------

