# What about han moo do?



## Humble artist (Sep 29, 2002)

I´m feeling a bit lazy,just wanted to hear what you think about it.  
Any input appreciated.


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## jkn75 (Oct 1, 2002)

I would like to see a demonstration of the style. I know there will be similarities to hapkido and kuk sool, but I'm wondering what the differences will be. Dr. Kimm is a martial arts historian and I wonder what ideas he may be reintroducing. 

I just wish they would get the American Han Mu Do Website up and running. I also have emailed them about Dr. Kimm's book on the history of Korean Martial Arts and never got a reply.


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## Humble artist (Oct 2, 2002)

Thanks.


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## Pyros (Jan 5, 2003)

You should know when browsing the web for info on HMD, that there are actually two totally separate systems calling themselves HMD. One is in America and another in Finland. They have no connection whatsoever between them, but if you just google for "Han Moo Do" you may bump into either of them and get contradicting info if you aren't aware of this.


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## Pyros (Feb 3, 2003)

The Han Moo Do in Finland is changing it's name to Chi Woo Do to avoid problems abroad with the Han Mu Do people.


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## shadowdragon (Feb 3, 2003)

And there is so much discussion going on about the hmd in Finland... about its founder, ranking etc...


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## Pyros (Feb 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by shadowdragon _
> *And there is so much discussion going on about the hmd in Finland... about its founder, ranking etc... *



Hmmm... You lost me. Care to elaborate?


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## shadowdragon (Feb 5, 2003)

Well, I can try.... But I think you have read the forums in Finland, taekwondo federation forum, 'taistelija'-forum and the han moo do forum itself. I don't want to make an issue, but there has been quite a lot of talk about the founder's legitimacy, about the demandness of the graduation test, some say they are just kind of formality, there have been people who have passed them even without remembering the techniques... personally I'd like to know details of Young Suk's history, when and where has he got his dan-degrees. 

When reading the hmd-forum seems like many people think he is right about everything, he knows the best way to do martial arts, he knows the right way to practise, including the best ways to run, lift weights etc.


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## Pyros (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by shadowdragon _
> *I don't want to make an issue, but there has been quite a lot of talk about the founder's legitimacy, about the demandness of the graduation test, some say they are just kind of formality, there have been people who have passed them even without remembering the techniques... personally I'd like to know details of Young Suk's history, when and where has he got his dan-degrees.*



Ah, okay. I wasn't really aware of any of this (I haven't really followed the Finnish HMD scene). I can say a couple of things about the belt tests:

Technically, the tests are easy. I can say that, even I have never taken part in them, because the rank requirements are public knowledge. Physical fitness is the hard part. They have far harder physical fitness tests than any other style I've ever seen. For example, to get 1st dan, you have to do 500 reps of abs, 500 reps of back lifts, 200 reps of bridges, 1500 squats, jump over a crouched person 1000 times in a row, run some distances (3km, 10km with time limits, and before 2nd dan you'll have to run 50 km which is a lot more than the marathon!) and lots of other fitness stuff I left out from this list. So, they focus on building the physique first. Is this good or bad, I won't comment on that, but they have chosen this road. They have a motto "Up till brown belt, HMD is 50% perspiration and 50% 'moo do', after that it is 100% 'moo do'". 

So that just happens to be their way of doing things, "a healthy mind in a healthy and fit body".

About passing a test without knowing the stuff... Well, can't really comment on that. From what I've gathered they are most interested in the "heart" of the student. I have heard similar stuff happen in other schools too. For example, Masaaki Hatsumi, the founder of Bujinkan school of budo, says openly (in books), that he has given out black belts to people who weren't technically really up to it. He has said that with some people he knew that when he gave them the rank, they'd try to live up to it because they were so deeply "into it" or something like that. So I feel it is the head teacher's own choice if he wants to do this kind of thing.



> *When reading the hmd-forum seems like many people think he is right about everything, he knows the best way to do martial arts, he knows the right way to practise, including the best ways to run, lift weights etc.  *



Yes, that is something I have noticed. But I have also noticed what might be a reason for this: the student base is very young. The whole art is so young, that most of the veterans with ten years of training in HMD, are just barely over 20 years old them selves! Most of the HMD people are just teenagers. That makes their behaviour a bit more tolerable. And, you must admit, the HMD advertising/marketing campaign is quite good when targeted towards the youngsters. I started studying Hoi Jeon Moo Sool (a Hapkido style) in a school where they also teach HMD. Very few people started with me, and they were all adults. Only few of us attended the demo and all who attended started the course. But when I went to the HMD demo, the room was full of audience! Lots of young people came to see. The club has a small bunch of HJMS students, but lots of HMD students. But the HMD students are so very young. I have noticed that many of them are numbstruck when I tell them I _only_ take the HJMS classes! Usually everyone there goes to HMD and only those who are really into martial arts and want to take it to another level, take HJMS too on the side. Someone like me - only taking HJMS and showing no interest in HMD - is a mysterious animal in there and they don't hide that reaction either.

BTW: about a decade ago, I lived together with a HMD black belt in a school's common apartment for a couple of months. Technically he was very ignorant about lots of stuff in martial arts. He had no idea that high kicks may be a bad idea in a street fight and so on. I told him very gently.  He did have the best physique I've ever seen on a guy my age though. But what was great was his attitude. He was really open and mature about stuff. We showed lots of techniques, tactics and ideas to each other and I never heard him put anyone or any style down in any way. I truly believe that he was one of the few people who have really gotten the idea of "budo/moodo" into their lives. He was really positive about everything and everyone. I guess a lot of it came from the philosophy of HMD even if there are some problems in the overall curriculum.


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## shadowdragon (Feb 5, 2003)

You are right about the fitness side of the belt tests. One reason though why I didn't want to start hmd is the amount of physical training they do... for me those amounts seem senseless. I'd rather spend that time practising techniques. In my style of Hapkido though it is not possible to pass tests without knowing the techniques and also the phase is quite fast, so with a bad fitness it isn't possible to pass them either.. which I think is the right way. 

Well, I don't know why so many people interested in hmd.... they must be really good marketers...  but how many do continue it I wonder. The practisioners who take it seriously seem really good though (based on the videos I have seen).

By the way, how are things going with hjms in Finland these days ? I am interested to know.


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## Pyros (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by shadowdragon _
> *One reason though why I didn't want to start hmd is the amount of physical training they do... for me those amounts seem senseless. I'd rather spend that time practising techniques.*



Ditto. I think guidance to train your fitness on your own would be a far better choice. I can train my conditioning alone any day of the week, but I only have few classes with the martial arts instructor, so I'd rather stick to business when he's available.



> *but how many do continue it I wonder.*



I have wondered this too. There are some things I have wondered, first of all black belt is often given to people with 3-5 years of training. They have operated now for 14 years. Why haven't I seen any 2nd dans? Are they hiding somewhere? The guy I told about, who was 1st dan in 1994, I haven't seen his name anywhere near HMD even I've intentionally searched some forums and the web for any mention of his name. None, zip, zilch! It seems, many go to the black belt level, but how many continue after that?

And why is this? Are the requirements too hard? Is the 1st dan given too soon, before the student has even figured out if this is what he'll do for the rest of his life? Or is it so, that sooner or later they meet people from other arts and notice that theirs is lacking something? I have no idea, but it seems strange.



> *By the way, how are things going with hjms in Finland these days ?*



Well, I guess you are referring to the political scene and "The Tolkido-incident"? I am really quite new in HJMS so I don't know that much. What I do know is that some clubs reverted back to HJMS and the old organization under the founder's system. Others kept the Tolkido name and are now under Geoff Booth's International Hapkido Alliance's wing. HJMS follows the old curriculum, while Tolkido people follow I.H.A.'s curriculum. That's about what I know. My instructor briefly said that the reasons for the breach were political and people just wanted different things. He told this so we wouldn't wonder about it if we bumped into any Tolkido people. He said that technically we were close to them at the moment, but as the Tolkido people will learn the I.H.A. system better, these styles have many differences.

The head instructor of HJMS in Finland is In-Seon Hwang and his name is on the official website of the founder's organization as the head instructor in Finland. That is just about all I know.

The link page of HJMS Lappeenranta shows some of the clubs that stick to the official HJMS instead of going the I.H.A. way.

PS. I wanted to ask you some questions regarding the Finnish hapkido scene... Any good websites (I know hapkido.fi but others), and where to get info on all the seminars/camps available on the different styles, and so on, but you haven't allowed private messages, so I'll ask here. Can you tell me anything about these things. Send me a private message if you like to talk about Hapkido and the Finnish martial arts scene and whatever!


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## shadowdragon (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Pyros _
> 
> I have wondered this too. There are some things I have wondered, first of all black belt is often given to people with 3-5 years of training. They have operated now for 14 years. Why haven't I seen any 2nd dans?



I didn't really think about this before... but I think they are no 2nd dans, which is strange... although I think receiving a bb in 3 years in so soon... I even read about a guy who didn't even go through the whole test, but still got the black belt...




> Well, I guess you are referring to the political scene and "The Tolkido-incident"?



Not so much... I was just thinking how active is the hjms-federation these days. As yes, since you mentioned it, quite a few clubs joined the tolkido-federation. 



> PS. I wanted to ask you some questions regarding the Finnish hapkido scene... Any good websites (I know hapkido.fi but others), and where to get info on all the seminars/camps available on the different styles. Can you tell me anything about these things.



Well, I haven't been around so long either... but I think the best places to find information are styles/federations own web pages... of course there is taistelija.net, which has an events section as well. Websites.. well I know some: 
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~vide/
http://students.tukkk.fi/jaakko.huokkola/koti.htm
http://www.itsepuolustus.net/
http://www.itsepuolustus.info/
I hope these are of some use...


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## Pyros (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks, I hadn't seen any of these. I am quite ignorant about the korean styles in Finland.


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## shadowdragon (Feb 7, 2003)

glad I could help :asian:


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## Humble artist (Feb 18, 2003)

I have not checked this thread for a while and was quite surprised to notice it had grown this much.
Thanks for all the replies.
It is probably worthy to mention that I am Finnish myself  (Not that I´m gonna type any on public forums,might receive complaints...) 
Reading your posts it just makes me think,as some say,there sure are a lot of politics involved in Korean martial arts (too)  
I think it is a good idea for "our" HMD organisation to change it´s name.I´m not very well-informed when it comes to this art but what strikes me is that if I do a search on han moo do,most of the links I receive are straight for Finnish clubs! :shrug: 
I wonder how recognized HMD is in Korea then? Is it even considered legitimate? 
As far as I know,there has already been some messing around with hapkido,it´s various styles and "new styles" to branch out of it like HJM.I have the idea that HMD was influenced by hapkido too.


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## Andi (Apr 12, 2003)

Just to clear up then, are you saying that there is a style called Han Mu Do develeped by Dr Hee Yung Kim (i'm kind of familiar with this one) and another style called Han Moo Do by Young Suk that's based in Finland, but is developed from Korean roots?


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## shadowdragon (Apr 12, 2003)

I can also comment on this, there is an art called Hanmoodo in Finland (although I think the name will be changed...), founded by Young Suk in 1989. And there is quite a lot of controversy about this style in Finland, especially about the legitimacy of the founder..... I guess the art has more or less Korean roots, from Taekwondo etc...


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## Pyros (Jun 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Humble artist _
> *I have not checked this thread for a while*



Well. now I return to it after months!



> * wonder how recognized HMD is in Korea then? Is it even considered legitimate?*



The problem is this: the Finnish art is usually spelled Han Moo Do, and the American art is spelled Han Mu Do. But in Korean, they are the same, it is just the difference between how an American writes it down after hearing it, and how a Finn writes it down after hearing it. So, when written in Korean, both arts have the same name. Now, here's the problem: The American HMD has been registered in some Korean head moodo organization. So, the Finnish HMD can't be because an art with the same name has already been registered! That is why the name is being changed, so the Finnish art can be officially registered and recognized in Korea too.

PS. I moved to another city and discontinued the HJMS training.


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## arnisador (Aug 31, 2003)

The current issue of Budo International magazine (#10) has a brief set of Han Mu Do techniques by He-Young Kimm.


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## pietu (Sep 13, 2003)

There is also han moo doo in the west coast usa and one in korea. All of these are written the same way in korean.

Pretty good reason to change the name...


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## jkn75 (Nov 12, 2003)

The Han Mu Do site is finally up and running again. You can find it here. I give it a thumbs up. It is very well done with thorough history and philosophy sections.


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## pknox (Nov 18, 2003)

Very well done.  I often sent people to www.hanmudo.org (Han Mu Do Europe) when they were looking for info on Dr. Kimm's art.  From now on, I will definitely send them to the .com address instead.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2003)

Dear Folks: 

".......As far as I know,there has already been some messing around with hapkido,it´s various styles and "new styles" to branch out of it like HJM.I have the idea that HMD was influenced by hapkido too....." 

Han Mu Do is the construction of Dr He-Young Kimm based on his experience with many of the folks who brought you the Hapkido arts. Like any new construction he has had his detractors. Some people think it was rather arrogant to organize his own art, and develop his own forms. For myself, I would probably agree were it not for the fact that Dr. Kimm is one of the premier authorities on Korean Martial Arts and Science and so has a bit more credibility than the local TKD school that decides to stir-in some Judo to their curriculum. By way of extension I have heard nothing but good things from people who have trained in his system, both about the system and Dr. Kimm himself.  Hard to argue with someone who knows what hes' doing, yes? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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