# whats the point of grappling arts?



## senseiblackbelt

like how does it help in a fight.. and how do u apply it in a self defense way  if uk what im sayin' ^


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## Chris Parker

Honestly, I'm not sure if you know what you're asking there…

Grappling refers to actions where at least one party has a grip or hold (which might involve pressure, or actually holding) on the other party. It can be standing, on the ground, or both… and is not restricted to arts such as BJJ. It covers actions such as clinching, throws, joint locks and immobilizations, pins, chokes, and so on. As far as how that could help in a fight, well, in any of the ways mentioned… if you get grabbed, or if you want to grab the opponent, if you want to throw them, choke them, or anything similar, then you're grappling with them… and when it comes to "how do you apply it in self defence", that's simply too broad a question to have any actual answer, as each situation is different.

Oh, one last thing… part of the terms of service you agreed to when joining the site is to write in clear, legible English… it'd help people to understand you if you used full words, rather than "u" (you), and phrases, such as "you know", rather than "uk"… honestly, I had to look at that a few times to get what you meant…


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## Tony Dismukes

That's a really broad question, but the general answer is "to control your opponent's body and keep him from controlling yours." Depending on the art and the situation, that might mean throwing, tripping, shoving, or redirecting your opponent, breaking his posture, pinning a limb or his whole body, breaking a limb, or choking him unconscious - and preventing him from doing any of that to you.

This is not necessarily separate from striking arts. Sometimes you might be breaking your opponent's posture, redirecting him, or pinning him so that you can strike him effectively without being struck back.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's a really broad question, but the general answer is "to control your opponent's body and keep him from controlling yours." Depending on the art and the situation, that might mean throwing, tripping, shoving, or redirecting your opponent, breaking his posture, pinning a limb or his whole body, breaking a limb, or choking him unconscious - and preventing him from doing any of that to you.
> 
> This is not necessarily separate from striking arts. Sometimes you might be breaking your opponent's posture, redirecting him, or pinning him so that you can strike him effectively without being struck back.


Tony, you're actually just defining "grappling" in the first sentence, and I think that's exactly what the OP needed. I'm not sure what he's actually asking about, but the vague question seems to come from a different (or perhaps nonexistent) definition of "grappling".

Senseiblackbelt, using that definition, your question now reads, "whats the point of controlling your opponent's body and keeping him from controlling yours? like how does it help in a fight.. and how do u apply it in a self defense way if uk what im sayin' "


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## Deleted member 34973

If you are in a controlled environment, such as the ring or a training hall, for sport it Can be useful. In a real life scenario it has the possibility of be useful...if you are only facing one attacker. But, in my opinion, that is as far as Its usefulness goes. It is definitely a one on one system of self defense.


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## Kickboxer101

Do you actually train because all you do is ask about every single style


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## Tony Dismukes

Guthrie said:


> If you are in a controlled environment, such as the ring or a training hall, for sport it Can be useful. In a real life scenario it has the possibility of be useful...if you are only facing one attacker. But, in my opinion, that is as far as Its usefulness goes. It is definitely a one on one system of self defense.


I don't know that I agree with that.

Suppose you are attacked by multiple assailants and one grabs and holds you while the other pummels you. Wouldn't you like to be able to break free? That's grappling.

Suppose you are tackled to the ground and one opponent pins you down while his buddies try to kick you in the head. Wouldn't you like to be able to escape the pin and get back to your feet? That's grappling.

How about redirecting one attacker to collide with another? That's grappling.

How about tripping an attacker who stands between you and the exit? That's grappling.

Tactics are different in a multiple attacker scenario than in a one-on-one fight, but the fundamental skills are still applicable.


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## Deleted member 34973

Sounds great in theory, but when you have three or four attackers coming at you continuously, not so much. Just about everything you describe seems to be a one at a time scenario. That's nit the reality of what actually happens. Although I would like to see a demonstration concerning those scenarios, if course minus the waiting your turn to attack. 

But, this question is about self defense...and in these types of situations, with more than one attacker jumping on you at the same, its just not a realistic defense. 

If you can break free and get up and run, which you should do when faced with multiple attackers, then yes it's useful.
Your grappling examples are correct, but I am pretty sure the OP was speaking of being on the ground. And, a lot of what you used as examples are can be put into the categories of simple escape techniques.

Which are taught in just about every system. But full on ground grappling...not really useful in a multiple attack scenario. Well, at least in my experience.


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## Deleted member 34973

I keep hitting the "I" instead of the "O" on my mobile..lol. My bad. Next time I will correct it before posting. Hell I am driving myself nuts with it.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Guthrie said:


> Sounds great in theory, but when you have three or four attackers coming at you continuously, not so much.


The "stand up grappling" can be used to deal with multiple opponents. Instead of knocking down your opponents one after another, you can take them down one after another instead.






If you are strong enough, you can pick up one opponent, throw him toward the others and finish the fight much quickly that way. 






If you are extremely strong, you can

- pick up one guy,
- hold on his ankle,
- swing him like swinging a baseball bat, and
- knock down your opponent one after another.

Don't have clip for that yet.


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## Deleted member 34973

Yes


Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "stand up grappling" can be used to deal with multiple opponents. Instead of knocking down your opponents one after another, you can take down one after another instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are strong enough, you can pick up one opponent, throw him toward the others and finish the fight much quickly that way.


Yes, I do agree with the stand up aspect. Maybe it's a definition thing. What is being called grappling(stand up version), I call escape and take downs. If this is the definition, that the OP is suggesting, then it is very useful in self defense scenarios. 

And, should be practiced extensively, as should ground grappling, for escape purposes.

But, staying on the ground and fighting multiple attackers, can get you hurt.


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## Hanzou

Guthrie said:


> Your grappling examples are correct, but I am pretty sure the OP was speaking of being on the ground.* And, a lot of what you used as examples are can be put into the categories of simple escape techniques.*
> 
> Which are taught in just about every system. But full on ground grappling...not really useful in a multiple attack scenario. Well, at least in my experience.




Can you please provide examples of these "escape techniques"?

I need a good laugh today.


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## Gerry Seymour

Guthrie said:


> Sounds great in theory, but when you have three or four attackers coming at you continuously, not so much. Just about everything you describe seems to be a one at a time scenario. That's nit the reality of what actually happens. Although I would like to see a demonstration concerning those scenarios, if course minus the waiting your turn to attack.
> 
> But, this question is about self defense...and in these types of situations, with more than one attacker jumping on you at the same, its just not a realistic defense.
> 
> If you can break free and get up and run, which you should do when faced with multiple attackers, then yes it's useful.
> Your grappling examples are correct, but I am pretty sure the OP was speaking of being on the ground. And, a lot of what you used as examples are can be put into the categories of simple escape techniques.
> 
> Which are taught in just about every system. But full on ground grappling...not really useful in a multiple attack scenario. Well, at least in my experience.


The OP didn't refer specifically to ground-only grappling. If that was his intent, I'd disagree with you a lot less on your prior statement. However, even full-on ground grappling has a place in self-defense. Yes, a few escapes are taught in many styles, but I know instructors in some of those styles who have added BJJ groundwork to give their students a full range of escapes - two or three escapes will not fit a full range of ground situations.


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## Tony Dismukes

Guthrie said:


> What is being called grappling(stand up version), I call escape and take downs. If this is the definition, that the OP is suggesting, then it is very useful in self defense scenarios.


I don't know what the OP intended with his question, but escapes and takedowns are absolutely part of grappling.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Can you please provide examples of these "escape techniques"?
> 
> I need a good laugh today.


The ones I've experienced weren't bad. I even teach a bit of them to give my students a starting point for groundwork. Their biggest limitation was that they applied only to a small range of circumstances. As you well know, if you're really good at one truly excellent escape, you're still not prepared for a full range of circumstances. This holds true on the ground as much as it does for standing work. If I had the time, I'd teach more of what I know of groundwork. If I had more time, I'd study and learn more and offer separate classes for it - it would be a great complement to our standing work  (both strikes and grappling).

Mind you, we've both seen some pretty lame "escapes" taught by folks who know (apparently) even less than I do.


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## Deleted member 34973

gpseymour said:


> The OP didn't refer specifically to ground-only grappling. If that was his intent, I'd disagree with you a lot less on your prior statement. However, even full-on ground grappling has a place in self-defense. Yes, a few escapes are taught in many styles, but I know instructors in some of those styles who have added BJJ groundwork to give their students a full range of escapes - two or three escapes will not fit a full range of ground situations.


Our discussion is against multiple attackers. Maybe you missed that part. Have you ever found yourself on the ground( real life) with multiple attackers?


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## Gerry Seymour

Guthrie said:


> Our discussion is against multiple attackers. Maybe you missed that part. Have you ever found yourself on the ground( real life) with multiple attackers?


Maybe you missed that multiple attackers is only part of the discussion, and not something from the OP. I'm also not certain how that has any relevance to my comment, since I never referred to either single or multiple attacker scenarios. The statement I made in my post holds true for either scenario.

No, I haven't faced multiple attackers from the ground. Nor have I faced them standing. But I can find evidence of both with a simple YouTube search. What is your point?


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## Deleted member 34973

gpseymour said:


> Maybe you missed that multiple attackers is only part of the discussion, and not something from the OP. I'm also not certain how that has any relevance to my comment, since I never referred to either single or multiple attacker scenarios. The statement I made in my post holds true for either scenario.
> 
> No, I haven't faced multiple attackers from the ground. Nor have I faced them standing. But I can find evidence of both with a simple YouTube search. What is your point?


Multiple attackers is specifically what I was discussing, while being on the ground.. That's my point. As for the you tube vids..were they actual street confrontations or training hall vids against multiple attackers, while on the ground? 

I had already stated that if its stand up grappling it is very useful...so I am not sure what your point is.

By the way..If you have a link to You tube videos showing an confrontations against multiple attackers, it would be appreciated.


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## Gerry Seymour

Guthrie said:


> Multiple attackers is specifically what I was discussing, while being on the ground.. That's my point. As for the you tube vids..were they actual street confrontations or training hall vids against multiple attackers, while on the ground?
> 
> I had already stated that if its stand up grappling it is very useful...so I am not sure what your point is.
> 
> By the way..If you have a link to You tube videos showing an confrontations against multiple attackers, it would be appreciated.


I haven't saved any links, but I can easily dig up some videos that include multiple attackers. I'll try to dig up a few tonight.


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## Steve

Why not train grapplin


Guthrie said:


> Our discussion is against multiple attackers. Maybe you missed that part. Have you ever found yourself on the ground( real life) with multiple attackers?


I can't think of anything worse than being held on the ground by multiple bad guys without a clue as to how to get back up again.  Seems pretty stupid to willfully choose not to learn such an essential skill if you plan on facing multiple attackers.


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## Buka

I think there's something in the air today.


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## Deleted member 34973

Steve said:


> Why not train grapplin
> 
> I can't think of anything worse than being held on the ground by multiple bad guys without a clue as to how to get back up again.  Seems pretty stupid to willfully choose not to learn such an essential skill if you plan on facing multiple attackers.


I never stated you shouldn't learn ground techniques. What I was referring to is a constant defense on the ground. If you are on the ground against multiple attackers, your chances of surviving are diminished

I believe that ground work is important, for getting off the ground and back onto your feet. But continuing the fight on the ground, in a real world scenario, is asinine. But, that thought is due to my own personal experiences.


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## Deleted member 34973

Really though...how many of you have actually been on the ground against multiple attackers, in a real world scenario?


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## Tony Dismukes

Guthrie said:


> I never stated you shouldn't learn ground techniques. What I was referring to is a constant defense on the ground. If you are on the ground against multiple attackers, your chances of surviving are diminished


Absolutely, I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. I practice and teach BJJ, which is probably the most ground-centric of all the grappling arts, and I teach my students that in a multiple attacker situation they should avoid going to the ground and work to get back to their feet if the fight does go to the ground.

That said, having a solid foundation in ground grappling skills offers your best chance of regaining your feet if you are taken down, whether it's by a single attacker or multiple attackers.


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## Buka

I taught _Controlling and Defeating Multiple Attackers_ to Federal Law Enforcement officers and members of Violent Fugitive Arrest squads for thirteen years. Part of the courses dealt with being on the ground (obviously not by choice), what to do there, how to attack from there, how to defend from there and how to regain your feet from there, all the while keeping your side arm and radio secure, and sometimes, coming to the aid of a partner, or protecting a member of the public who was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. (if you're wondering about the radio, it's your greatest weapon, it' calls the cavalry)

A working knowledge of ground fighting, it's positions, it's escapes and it's pitfalls were part of the overall training. Without that knowledge - officers were at far greater disadvantages in an already less than ideal tactical battle.

Any knowledge that _you_ can learn will only make _your_ own particular Martial Art and _personal fighting ability_ that much stronger and safer.


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## Steve

Guthrie said:


> I never stated you shouldn't learn ground techniques. What I was referring to is a constant defense on the ground. If you are on the ground against multiple attackers, your chances of surviving are diminished
> 
> I believe that ground work is important, for getting off the ground and back onto your feet. But continuing the fight on the ground, in a real world scenario, is asinine. But, that thought is due to my own personal experiences.


okay.  You answered your own question.   Why train on The ground?  Because "ground work is important."


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## Deleted member 34973

Steve said:


> okay.  You answered your own question.   Why train on The ground?  Because "ground work is important."


I didn't ask that question.


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## Deleted member 34973

Buka said:


> I taught _Controlling and Defeating Multiple Attackers_ to Federal Law Enforcement officers and members of Violent Fugitive Arrest squads for thirteen years. Part of the courses dealt with being on the ground (obviously not by choice), what to do there, how to attack from there, how to defend from there and how to regain your feet from there, all the while keeping your side arm and radio secure, and sometimes, coming to the aid of a partner, or protecting a member of the public who was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. (if you're wondering about the radio, it's your greatest weapon, it' calls the cavalry)
> 
> A working knowledge of ground fighting, it's positions, it's escapes and it's pitfalls were part of the overall training. Without that knowledge - officers were at far greater disadvantages in an already less than ideal tactical battle.
> 
> Any knowledge that _you_ can learn will only make _your_ own particular Martial Art and _personal fighting ability_ that much stronger and safer.


I am curious, do you have any video demonstrations of these courses? Was the ground work geared towards multiple attackers while on the ground? Not being snide, I really am interested in the structure of the course you taught.


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## Steve

Guthrie said:


> I didn't ask that question.


Not overtly but you have addressed your initial statement.  You started by saying ground skills have no value and are now acknowledging that they do.


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## Jujutsuka

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are extremely strong, you can
> 
> - pick up one guy,
> - hold on his ankle,
> - swing him like swinging a baseball bat, and
> - knock down your opponent one after another.
> 
> Don't have clip for that yet.



Haha, I sure wish they would teach ME that trick in jujutsu class!


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## Deleted member 34973

Steve said:


> Not overtly but you have addressed your initial statement.  You started by saying ground skills have no value and are now acknowledging that they do.


Again...I stated against multiple attackers, while remaining on the ground, is not advisable and dangerous. Getting out and up and training for that is justified. One on one, it can be very effective(if you are on the ground) I changed my opinion when I was made aware of the fact, that some commenters were speaking of standing and grappling. Which I believe is effective. But, remaining on the ground or even being taken to the ground, when multiple assailants are attacking you, is asking for a quick trip to the emergency room.


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## drop bear

Guthrie said:


> Sounds great in theory, but when you have three or four attackers coming at you continuously, not so much. Just about everything you describe seems to be a one at a time scenario. That's nit the reality of what actually happens. Although I would like to see a demonstration concerning those scenarios, if course minus the waiting your turn to attack.
> 
> But, this question is about self defense...and in these types of situations, with more than one attacker jumping on you at the same, its just not a realistic defense.
> 
> If you can break free and get up and run, which you should do when faced with multiple attackers, then yes it's useful.
> Your grappling examples are correct, but I am pretty sure the OP was speaking of being on the ground. And, a lot of what you used as examples are can be put into the categories of simple escape techniques.
> 
> Which are taught in just about every system. But full on ground grappling...not really useful in a multiple attack scenario. Well, at least in my experience.



Lack of ground skill is not very good against 1 person.  So not only will you get beat up by multiple oponants you will also get beat up if there is only one guy.


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## Steve

Guthrie said:


> Again...I stated against multiple attackers, while remaining on the ground, is not advisable and dangerous. Getting out and up and training for that is justified. One on one, it can be very effective(if you are on the ground) I changed my opinion when I was made aware of the fact, that some commenters were speaking of standing and grappling. Which I believe is effective. But, remaining on the ground or even being taken to the ground, when multiple assailants are attacking you, is asking for a quick trip to the emergency room.


And the sky is blue.  And the grass is green

You started off suggesting that learning ground fighting is useless against multiple attacjers.   Now you acknowledge that learning ground d fighting is essential against multiple attackers if they choose to take you to the ground.  

Ultimately you're deluded if you think that against multiple attackers, you will be skilled enough to choose the context of the altercation.    This is dangerously ignorant.  Without grappling trainjng, against multiple attackers you will be helpless unless you are competent with both standing and ground grappling.


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## Deleted member 34973

Steve said:


> And the sky is blue.  And the grass is green
> 
> You started off suggesting that learning ground fighting is useless against multiple attacjers.   Now you acknowledge that learning ground d fighting is essential against multiple attackers if they choose to take you to the ground.
> 
> Ultimately you're deluded if you think that against multiple attackers, you will be skilled enough to choose the context of the altercation.    This is dangerously ignorant.  Without grappling trainjng, against multiple attackers you will be helpless unless you are competent with both standing and ground grappling.


Are you so blinded by your ground system that you can't even read that I stated "if you stay ON the ground against multiple attackers is foolish" why are you deliberately ignoring that statement. Have you even ever been attacked by multiple assailants?


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## Deleted member 34973

What I stated is that it is useless to stay on the ground using grappling in a real world scenario and I will stand by that statement.


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## drop bear

Guthrie said:


> What I stated is that it is useless to stay on the ground using grappling in a real world scenario and I will stand by that statement.



And how do you avoid staying on the ground against multiple attackers?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Jujutsuka said:


> Haha, I sure wish they would teach ME that trick in jujutsu class!


In Chinese wrestling, there is a throw called "casting" that you use both hands to hold on both side of your opponent waist belt. You then spin him off the ground in circle like casting a fish net.








In the following clip, a 165 lb guy uses "casting" on a 240 lb guy. If his opponent is about his weight or lighter, he should be able to swing his opponent completely off the ground and in a circle.


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## drop bear

Standing up is not really a magical bullet against multiple attackers by the way.

I mean you should never go to ground in a multiple fight because there is a slight chance you will last a bit longer.

Also never go to ground when fighting a grizzly bear. Because it will out weigh you.






As soon as they have numbers they have advantage. So going to ground is risk vs reward. If you are in some sort giant melee. Then you may take a guy down so you can put him out of the fight. Hitting a guy on the deck is better than hitting him standing. If you get caught on the deck then you are in the same sort of trouble.


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## Deleted member 34973

drop bear said:


> And how do you avoid staying on the ground against multiple attackers?


There is no set way. The last time I was on the ground against multiple attackers...I was stabbed. How I got out of it, I stabbed them back.

How about you?

How many in this thread have actually even been in a real life and death scenerio?


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## Skullpunch

Guthrie said:


> But, in my opinion, that is as far as Its usefulness goes. It is definitely a one on one system of self defense.



So is everything else other than knife fighting and/or 400 meter dash training.

Seriously, no amount of karate or anything else is going to make me feel particularly good about fighting multiple attackers.  Although points of knowing how to fight on the ground in case you end up there against your will are valid, the bottom line is you need to simply avoid this situation at all costs and if you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in it either be prepared to run for your life or defend yourself in pragmatic ways (such as a weapon) that may require legal defense should you come out alive.


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## Steve

Guthrie said:


> Are you so blinded by your ground system that you can't even read that I stated "if you stay ON the ground against multiple attackers is foolish" why are you deliberately ignoring that statement. Have you even ever been attacked by multiple assailants?


I'm not blinded by anything.   Is it a good idea to know how to grapple on the ground or not?  You say no and then you say yes.   Which is it?  If you're fighting multiple guys, is your striking good enough to ensure you won't be put on the ground?


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## Steve

Guthrie said:


> What I stated is that it is useless to stay on the ground using grappling in a real world scenario and I will stand by that statement.


And if you aren't competent grappling in the ground, how do you avoid staying there?   It's nonsensical.


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## drop bear

Guthrie said:


> There is no set way. The last time I was on the ground against multiple attackers...I was stabbed. How I got out of it, I stabbed them back.
> 
> How about you?
> 
> How many in this thread have actually even been in a real life and death scenerio?



Last time for me was when I suplexed a large aboriginal man who wanted to bash me because he was tough from being in prison.
 He had 3 mates and nobody was keen to jump in after that for some reason.

Nobody got stabbed.


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## Steve

Guthrie said:


> There is no set way. The last time I was on the ground against multiple attackers...I was stabbed. How I got out of it, I stabbed them back.
> 
> How about you?
> 
> How many in this thread have actually even been in a real life and death scenerio?


  Last time I was in the ground against multiple attackers, I used my laser vision.


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## Deleted member 34973

I still stand by original statement...it's might be useful in a one one one scenario.


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## Deleted member 34973

drop bear said:


> Last time for me was when I suplexed a large aboriginal man who wanted to bash me because he was tough from being in prison.
> He had 3 mates and nobody was keen to jump in after that for some reason.
> 
> Nobody got stabbed.


I don't even know how to respond to that. You were not attacked buy multiple assailants.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> Last time I was in the ground against multiple attackers, I used my laser vision.



Just because it didn't happen on you tube. Does not mean it didn't happen.


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## Steve

Guthrie said:


> I still stand by original statement...it's might be useful in a one one one scenario.


So once again, if you're on the ground fighting 5 guys, is it better to know ground fighting or not?


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## Steve

drop bear said:


> Just because it didn't happen on you tube. Does not mean it didn't happen.


That's true.   I don't like to advertise my laser vision ability.


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## drop bear

Guthrie said:


> I don't even know how to respond to that. You were not attacked buy multiple assailants.



And yet grappling in the streets. I was not attacked by the guys friends. Wasn't stabbed and did not even fall in broken glass.

Shouldn't even count as a street fight really.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> That's true.   I don't like to advertise my laser vision ability.



As a true martial artist you are not in it for the ego of putting fights out there for the public.

Private lessons for the right money on the other hand.........


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## Deleted member 34973

Steve said:


> So once again, if you're on the ground fighting 5 guys, is it better to know ground fighting or not?


Let me see a video of it and then, I will make my decision. The shear amount of potentials are, to say the least, staggering. I can say now at this time, after seeing and being in situations like that. That staying on the ground, and fighting five guys, who most likely won't stay on the ground, is definitely a resounding no. Now, if you are saying that you can grapple standing up and on the ground, as I previously stated that being made aware. That a few commenters understood it as standing and ground grappling, then yes absoulutly. 

But training to grapple multiple attackers while remaining on ground, is a waste of time.

There are far to many scenarios to cover.

Well guys its been a great debate but, time to spend time with my family. Have a great night and I will yak at you tomorrow.


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## drop bear

Guthrie said:


> Let me see a video of it and then, I will make my decision. The shear amount of potentials are, to say the least, staggering. I can say now at this time, after seeing and being in situations like that. That staying on the ground, and fighting five guys, who most likely won't stay on the ground, is definitely a resounding no. Now, if you are saying that you can grapple standing up and on the ground, as I previously stated that being made aware. That a few commenters understood it as standing and ground grappling, then yes absoulutly.
> 
> But training to grapple multiple attackers while remaining on ground, is a waste of time.
> 
> There are far to many scenarios to cover.
> 
> Well guys its been a great debate but, time to spend time with my family. Have a great night and I will yak at you tomorrow.



So you can fight five guys?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Many ancient MA skills that people don't train enough today. Those are:

- mobility, hit and run,
- throw objects (dagger, dart, rock, ...),
- dodging throwing objects,
- out run fat cops,
- ...

If you can out run your opponent, nobody can hit you and nobody can take you down.


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## Jaeimseu

Multiple attackers? No problem. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buka

Guthrie said:


> I am curious, do you have any video demonstrations of these courses? Was the ground work geared towards multiple attackers while on the ground? Not being snide, I really am interested in the structure of the course you taught.



I didn't take it as snide, bro. Not in the least bit.

I do not have any videos. My old department does, but they don't share diddly. As to the ground, there's a lot to it, but I think you might be imagining it in a context differently than how we work/utilize it. If you're imagining grappling as you might see in a competition, on tv, or in grappling training, that's not really it. For the most part, anyway

 If you get knocked down, slip, whatever, and are on the ground, surrounded by multiples, there's a lot of things that have to be trained. One is  to roll towards anyone, or group of them, that are at either of your sides and facing you like they're about to kick you to death, which they're going to try to do. You roll fast, like you're on fire, over their feet into the shins - hyper-extending knees and dropping them backwards. It's wonderfully effective, but you have to be really careful training this. This is not an end all, merely an initial move. (takes about a half second, but starts to change the dynamics)You have to be aware of your head, and where anyone is in regards to it. We use what has been termed an umbrella block (bent arm) to protect the head, but away from it. Have to be careful with it as if it's too close to your head, their shoe will fit underneath and you'll get clocked. Have to be able to move it upwards as well, for raised downward stomps, which aren't really as dangerous as kicks sliding along the ground. (with a week of training, the stomps are fairly easy to deflect or catch.)

Your feet, legs bent, are always ready to kick, thrust, or trip standing enemies. There are several ways to do this and everyone has their favorites usually based on which ones come the most natural to them during initial training.

There is a constant practice to scramble up to your feet, but it must be practiced over and over, from your back (legs up, legs down, legs anyway you can think of) from your side (straight legged, bent legged or balled up.) face down, which we discourage (but practice nonetheless) as you're better off rolling to get up. There is also the use of weapons from the ground, both side-arm or blade. I suppose you could include sprays, but we never took them seriously, I've never known them to stop a determined individual, never mind a group.

You should practice basic mount escape and all it's variables, practicing not only the escape, but accessing your weapon(s) as well, WHILE you are doing it. Practice full guard, not only to prevent the person from mounting you but to use them as a shield, also while accessing a weapon.

You practice a lot of breakfall, which is instrumental to any grappling art. Also a fall where you are falling backwards, not slapping in breakfall, but rounding your body as your butt, then back, are making contact with the ground, kicking your heels against your own backside to stop your momentum, WHILE accessing your weapon. (this is great, you should try it right now) Or, if unarmed, to change direction of movement, to attack from a downed position.

When down with a person(s) at your head, practice hooking your arm (which one would depend on where the person was, which of his legs was closer to you in your field of peripheral vision, and maybe which arm/hand you access a weapon with) and _spinning_ on your back to change position relative to the enemy.

Reading this, or any part of this, takes a hell of a lot longer than any movement you make, especially if you train the movements properly and repeatedly. In the time it takes to read this whole post.....you could have already controlled and defeated four guys and gone home to get a tuna sandwich. (if you don't have to write reports, that is)

There's a bootload more to this, (obviously) but you get the idea. The ground is a part of it. The more experience one has on the ground, the better. 

There's a lot of other components, again, obviously, but one that's relevant to this conversation is the "taking away of space". BJJ deals with the taking away of space. _His_ space. In choking, in joint locks, in position, in everything, you are basically taking away space. In standing up against multiples - it's all about taking away space. _Their_ space. To the uninitiated, one might think that facing multiples would mean to move/dance away, but the opposite is true. You move in, you crowd, you vortex them, you create chaos. Chaos is your friend. It is _their_ enemy. If you learn ground fighting you become familiar with the concept of taking away space. It translates to an understanding of taking away space in standing up with multiples.

Groups of people cannot do simple tasks. Untie your shoe. Have your buddy time you with a stopwatch on how long it takes you to tie it. Now take two friends and tie your shoe as a group. Each take a lace, one hold the knot. Again, have someone with a stop watch. Practice all you want. 

I could go on for a few pages about multiples, but I'll spare you. If you would like, I'll send you an outline consisting of key notes we use, but it will have to wait a month, I'm in the process of moving and everything is packed in boxes at the moment.

Sorry for the long post. And maybe rethink ground work. It's really good.


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## Gerry Seymour

gpseymour said:


> I haven't saved any links, but I can easily dig up some videos that include multiple attackers. I'll try to dig up a few tonight.


Here's a Gracie video, with several short clips of folks ending up on the ground with multiple attackers: 



This was posted by PCS, looks like the full version of one of the fights in the Gracies' video: 



This one has someone saving him - he was on the ground before the intervention:


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## Gerry Seymour

Guthrie said:


> Really though...how many of you have actually been on the ground against multiple attackers, in a real world scenario?


You've asked this before. What is the point of the question?


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## Gerry Seymour

Guthrie said:


> There is no set way. The last time I was on the ground against multiple attackers...I was stabbed. How I got out of it, I stabbed them back.
> 
> How about you?
> 
> How many in this thread have actually even been in a real life and death scenerio?[/QUOTE





Guthrie said:


> I still stand by original statement...it's might be useful in a one one one scenario.


How do  you draw any useful differentiation between the grappling used to get off the ground and the grappling you might use if you chose to stay on the ground? The only difference I can think of would be the submission holds. Everything else in groundwork is equally applicable to escaping to your feet.

How is that not useful when you have multiple attackers?


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## senseiblackbelt

Kickboxer101 said:


> Do you actually train because all you do is ask about every single style


 yes.


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## senseiblackbelt

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "stand up grappling" can be used to deal with multiple opponents. Instead of knocking down your opponents one after another, you can take them down one after another instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are strong enough, you can pick up one opponent, throw him toward the others and finish the fight much quickly that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are extremely strong, you can
> 
> - pick up one guy,
> - hold on his ankle,
> - swing him like swinging a baseball bat, and
> - knock down your opponent one after another.
> 
> Don't have clip for that yet.









- pick up one guy,
- hold on his ankle,
- swing him like swinging a baseball bat, and
- knock down your opponent one after another.


one word. 

wow.


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## Chris Parker

Ha, I have a different word for it…


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## Langenschwert

The ability to control another person's body is the most foundational skill in combat. Grappling is the applied science of doing just that. In the prologue of Liechtenauer's verses, the first specific martial instruction given to young knights is to "wrestle well":
_
"Jung Ritter lere / got lip haben frawen io ere / So wechst dein ere
Uebe ritterschaft und lere / kunst dy dich zyret und in krigen sere hofiret
Ringens gut fesser / glefney sper swert unde messer
menlich bederben / unde in andern henden vorterben"
_
Translation: 

Young Knight learn to love God and revere women so that your honour grows. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honour in wars. Wrestle well and wield lance, spear, sword, and dagger manfully, whose use in others' hands is wasted.

The Nuremburg Hausbuch says quite plainly that "all fencing comes from wrestling" (alles fechten kommt von ringen).

That was the advice from professional warriors to others of their class. Presumably they knew what they were talking about.

Even assuming you don't want to grapple, you need to know how to grapple to avoid getting grappled. Just like Chuck Liddell using his wrestling in reverse... he couldn't have been the striker he was without his wrestling background. The better grappler often decides how the great majority of a fight will go down. Not training grappling is unwise if your goal is to become a complete martial artist. Asking whether grappling training is useful is like asking whether literacy is useful.


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## Kenpoguy123

I've done a tiny bit of wrestling, judo and jiu jitsu not a lot but a few weeks here and there and it is effective for what it is and I wouldn't want to mess with an expert of any grappling


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## Charlemagne

Guthrie said:


> Again...I stated against multiple attackers, while remaining on the ground, is not advisable and dangerous.


  Any type of fighting against multiple attackers is not advisable and dangerous.  I don't know a single reputable grappling instructor who teaches that one should take the fight to the ground in a multiple attacker situation.



> Getting out and up and training for that is justified.


  And the best way to do that is to learn solid fundamentals on the ground.  





> But, remaining on the ground or even being taken to the ground, when multiple assailants are attacking you, is asking for a quick trip to the emergency room.


  There are a myriad of ways one can end up on the ground in a confrontation without ever meaning to.  The other guy (or guys), your environment, etc. all get a vote in how a fight goes down.


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## Charlemagne

Guthrie said:


> Let me see a video of it and then, I will make my decision. The shear amount of potentials are, to say the least, staggering. I can say now at this time, after seeing and being in situations like that. That staying on the ground, and fighting five guys, who most likely won't stay on the ground, is definitely a resounding no. Now, if you are saying that you can grapple standing up and on the ground, as I previously stated that being made aware. That a few commenters understood it as standing and ground grappling, then yes absoulutly.
> 
> But training to grapple multiple attackers while remaining on ground, is a waste of time.



Your logical fallacy is strawman


Not a single person in this thread has advocated deliberately taking a fight against multiple persons to the ground, nor have they advocated choosing to stay there.


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## Deleted member 34973

Charlemagne said:


> Your logical fallacy is strawman
> 
> 
> Not a single person in this thread has advocated deliberately taking a fight against multiple persons to the ground, nor have they advocated choosing to stay there.


Meh


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## Charlemagne

Guthrie said:


> Meh



Prove me wrong.  Show me one example from this thread to date where someone has stated that they prefer to go to the ground or stay on the ground against multiple opponents.


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## Charlemagne

Guthrie said:


> There is no set way.



There _is_ a set way.  It's called knowing what the heck you are doing, which you do by getting your butt on the mat and training the ground.


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## Steve

"When I'm fighting multiple people, I prefer to go to the ground and stay there," said no one ever. 

Going to the ground and staying there is a great idea if you're the one with friends.  So, if you're fighting against multiple attackers, you may find you don't have a lot of choice about whether you're on the ground or not.


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## Charlemagne

Steve said:


> "When I'm fighting multiple people, I prefer to go to the ground and stay there," said no one ever.
> 
> Going to the ground and staying there is a great idea if you're the one with friends.  So, if you're fighting against multiple attackers, you may find you don't have a lot of choice about whether you're on the ground or not.



Exactly.


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## drop bear

But this is still multiple attackers yeah?

Don't fight them at all. It sucks.


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## Steve

drop bear said:


> But this is still multiple attackers yeah?
> 
> Don't fight them at all. It sucks.


Its not so bad if you're on the side with several people.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> Its not so bad if you're on the side with several people.



Ground fighters should always have friends.


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## Charlemagne

drop bear said:


> Ground fighters should always have friends.


Unless they don't wash their Gi.  Those people should be shunned.  Just kidding (kind of).


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## Charlemagne

Getting back to the OP's post, this thread has a video in it that shows a perfect example of how grappling can be used for self-protection, and very effectively.  

3 chokes every woman should know.


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## msmitht

Guthrie said:


> If you are in a controlled environment, such as the ring or a training hall, for sport it Can be useful. In a real life scenario it has the possibility of be useful...if you are only facing one attacker. But, in my opinion, that is as far as Its usefulness goes. It is definitely a one on one system of self defense.


Hmm. Really? OK I guess. We have had challenges from all styles and fighters using rules ranging from friendly to dirty. Bjj wins more than 90% of those.  Police, military and special services train in it. If you don't like it or can not do it properly then fine but don't knock it. It has been proven to work. Many have sweat, bled and broken limbs proving it's effectiveness.


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## Deleted member 34973

msmitht said:


> Hmm. Really? OK I guess. We have had challenges from all styles and fighters using rules ranging from friendly to dirty. Bjj wins more than 90% of those.  Police, military and special services train in it. If you don't like it or can not do it properly then fine but don't knock it. It has been proven to work. Many have sweat, bled and broken limbs proving it's effectiveness.


Excellent, I hope you really enjoy it.


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## Sub Zero

Guthrie said:


> If you are in a controlled environment, such as the ring or a training hall, for sport it Can be useful. In a real life scenario it has the possibility of be useful...if you are only facing one attacker. But, in my opinion, that is as far as Its usefulness goes. It is definitely a one on one system of self defense.



No martial art will help against multiple opponents.   Except for running.


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## UqaabKamikaze

Dash and run.
Submissions are deadly against one opponent if you really want to choke him, break His arm or legs or shoulder. Against multiple opponent it teaches you how to keep your vital area safe and quickly get up on your feet.
Striking and standing art against one is not as beneficial as grappling as you have chances of getting hurt in exchange of strikes. Against multiple attacker it is great tool to prepare escape root.
But fighting multiple opponents without running I would never do that...that is not bravery (conditions apply)  but foolishness.
And to all you people I may be wrong because yesterday was my first day to Start learning martial art.

Sent from my Karbonn A2+ using Tapatalk


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## UqaabKamikaze

Dash and run.
Submissions are deadly against one opponent if you really want to choke him, break His arm or legs or shoulder. Against multiple opponent it teaches you how to keep your vital area safe and quickly get up on your feet.
Striking and standing art against one is not as beneficial as grappling as you have chances of getting hurt in exchange of strikes. Against multiple attacker it is great tool to prepare escape root.
But fighting multiple opponents without running I would never do that...that is not bravery (conditions apply)  but foolishness.
And to all you people I may be wrong because yesterday was my first day to Start learning martial art.

Sent from my Karbonn A2+ using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour

Sub Zero said:


> No martial art will help against multiple opponents.   Except for running.


Almost any martial art will help against multiple opponents. Will it help enough? That's a different question. It will improve your odds, perhaps by only a small percentage if there's more than two, but any improvement is a better chance to survive and escape.


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## Gerry Seymour

UqaabKamikaze said:


> Dash and run.
> Submissions are deadly against one opponent if you really want to choke him, break His arm or legs or shoulder. Against multiple opponent it teaches you how to keep your vital area safe and quickly get up on your feet.
> Striking and standing art against one is not as beneficial as grappling as you have chances of getting hurt in exchange of strikes. Against multiple attacker it is great tool to prepare escape root.
> But fighting multiple opponents without running I would never do that...that is not bravery (conditions apply)  but foolishness.
> And to all you people I may be wrong because yesterday was my first day to Start learning martial art.
> 
> Sent from my Karbonn A2+ using Tapatalk


I don't think striking arts are at a major disadvantage in 1-1 encounters. They are better at blocking (we are generally best at defending against what we practice), and they don't stand and trade blows like in a movie - they deliver hard blows intended to either disable or to make room for a blow that will disable. I prefer grappling, but striking works, too. The best preparation is to learn both, and many arts incorporate pieces and principles of both.

And the grappling submissions should become destructions if there's clearly more than one attacker.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Almost any martial art will help against multiple opponents. Will it help enough? That's a different question. It will improve your odds, perhaps by only a small percentage if there's more than two, but any improvement is a better chance to survive and escape.



And then you have all these weird factors that come in to play.  For example takedown defence may be a critical factor when deciding success in a multiple fight.  Being able to actually finish people which is tricky if you are eating 3 fists for each one you are dishing out.  It is a conversation about fuzzy concepts. Not a set of rules.

Multiples in real fights are a really complex scenario.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> And then you have all these weird factors that come in to play.  For example takedown defence may be a critical factor when deciding success in a multiple fight.  Being able to actually finish people which is tricky if you are eating 3 fists for each one you are dishing out.  It is a conversation about fuzzy concepts. Not a set of rules.


Quite true. If ever there is a time to be able to avoid being put on the ground, it's when there are multiple people who would love to kick you down there. This makes takedown defense and related topics very valuable. Good movement practices also become very valuable, because you're a bit more likely to be able to keep from ending up with one person behind you - again, a bit higher percentage of eventually getting away. IMO, the distancing used in most striking arts is a bit more useful in controlling here than the distance control used in most grappling-only styles - I play closer when I'm grappling than when I'm striking.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Quite true. If ever there is a time to be able to avoid being put on the ground, it's when there are multiple people who would love to kick you down there. This makes takedown defense and related topics very valuable. Good movement practices also become very valuable, because you're a bit more likely to be able to keep from ending up with one person behind you - again, a bit higher percentage of eventually getting away. IMO, the distancing used in most striking arts is a bit more useful in controlling here than the distance control used in most grappling-only styles - I play closer when I'm grappling than when I'm striking.



 that sort of changes again. So if you hang for a second against a comitted attack you just get mobbed like dogs taking down a pig. That is precisely how security guards drop people. It is just a numbers game. So even the basic striking distance it kind of a trap a bit.

They are trying to create a formation and I am trying to upset that. and it is fast distance traveled that works best there.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> that sort of changes again. So if you hang for a second against a comitted attack you just get mobbed like dogs taking down a pig. That is precisely how security guards drop people. It is just a numbers game. So even the basic striking distance it kind of a trap a bit.
> 
> They are trying to create a formation and I am trying to upset that. and it is fast distance traveled that works best there.


Agreed. I was talking more about the movement used to keep them where you want them until you move in. If I relied on the distancing you see in grappling competitions (think Judo), I'd have a hard time keeping control of their formation until I'm ready to close. Using striking distance moves (think Shotokan), I can maintain distance for a couple of beats to read the right moment for the close.

That has been my approach. Your training is different than mine, so you may have tools I don't use that change up the approach.


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## Charlemagne

Sub Zero said:


> No martial art will help against multiple opponents.   Except for running.



Always a good choice, but I disagree with your premise.  To be fair, I have no desire or illusions about sticking around to slug it out with multiple persons.  However, since I practice a weapons based art in Pekiti Tirsia, we presume multiple opponents all the time, and one of the ways we do that is by thinking about flanking to one side in a way that puts one person in between you and the rest, attacking that one person, and then strapping on the PF Flyers and getting the heck out of there.  We call them Running Attacks for a reason, and they are for exactly that.


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## msmitht

UqaabKamikaze said:


> Dash and run.
> Submissions are deadly against one opponent if you really want to choke him, break His arm or legs or shoulder. Against multiple opponent it teaches you how to keep your vital area safe and quickly get up on your feet.
> Striking and standing art against one is not as beneficial as grappling as you have chances of getting hurt in exchange of strikes. Against multiple attacker it is great tool to prepare escape root.
> But fighting multiple opponents without running I would never do that...that is not bravery (conditions apply)  but foolishness.
> And to all you people I may be wrong because yesterday was my first day to Start learning martial art.
> 
> Sent from my Karbonn A2+ using Tapatalk


Best way to defeat multiple people is to have a concealed carry license, get a pistol, learn how to shoot and carry. Someone will probably start babbling on about gun disarms and what not but you can not do that if I shoot you first and keep distance.


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## Gerry Seymour

msmitht said:


> Best way to defeat multiple people is to have a concealed carry license, get a pistol, learn how to shoot and carry. Someone will probably start babbling on about gun disarms and what not but you can not do that if I shoot you first and keep distance.


There's a lot more to a gun being useful than learning to shoot. If you don't have good retention skills, drawing skills, etc., that gun is not very helpful in many scenarios. If you're not trained in recognizing danger cues, you'll either wait too late to draw - when they get too close, it's sometimes safer to leave it holstered - or draw too early and get into legal trouble.

There is no strategy that's a good bet against multiple opponents. Gun included, unless you are picturing them coming at you from a distance away.


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## msmitht

gpseymour said:


> There's a lot more to a gun being useful than learning to shoot. If you don't have good retention skills, drawing skills, etc., that gun is not very helpful in many scenarios. If you're not trained in recognizing danger cues, you'll either wait too late to draw - when they get too close, it's sometimes safer to leave it holstered - or draw too early and get into legal trouble.
> 
> There is no strategy that's a good bet against multiple opponents. Gun included, unless you are picturing them coming at you from a distance away.


Sorry. I learned my skills with firearms in the Marine Corps as an 0311 so when I say learn to shoot I was including all the skills that go along with it.


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## Gerry Seymour

msmitht said:


> Sorry. I learned my skills with firearms in the Marine Corps as an 0311 so when I say learn to shoot I was including all the skills that go along with it.


I don't know what the Marine Corps teaches about draw and retention of a handgun, but most civilians are taught nothing of that even in concealed carry courses.


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## msmitht

gpseymour said:


> I don't know what the Marine Corps teaches about draw and retention of a handgun, but most civilians are taught nothing of that even in concealed carry courses.


I assume you are referring to keeping your firearm from getting taken away and when to draw. Yes they are reviewed heavily but orders must be given unless situation calls for it when it comes to drawing your weapon (or raising it in case of a rifle). As to retention it is covered In CQC


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## swivel63

controlling people, being able to create space at will, ect.  

i used to train this martial art that had a section on multiple attackers.  my instructor taught it, but basically was like run for the door when it came down to it.


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## FriedRice

senseiblackbelt said:


> like how does it help in a fight.. and how do u apply it in a self defense way  if uk what im sayin' ^



If all I knew was my BJJ in a self defense situation in the street....then I'd go for a double or single leg take down......slam him as hard as possible into the cement w/my body weight + momentum driving down into him....get up quickly while controlling his ankles or grabbing his pants' at the cuffs and spin him to my left...now I'm in side position (slight side control)....then soccer kick him in the head and/or stomp on it....without crossing over from self defense, to say...some violent felony...or maiming....even manslaughter...or worse, 2nd degree murder.


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