# Probationary Black Belts Crock or Not?



## Guro Harold

What is the value of rank of probationary black black belts (Lakan 0)? Do they add any value to the organization and individual or are they in essence a "Barney Fife" black belt, ie deputy with a gun and single bulllet.


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## Andrew Green

If you view rank as a retention tool then there is benefit.

 How many people drop out shortly after reaching that "end goal"? 

 By making it probationary they can reach there goal but still have to remain in order to make it "official".  As opposed to delaying the BB which might cause earlier drop outs as it just seems "too far away".

 Stop thinking about the "rank" and worry about how LONG people stay and what the quality of what they do there is.  And if you are a business owner, How much money will I get from them so that I can pay the rent and keep the lights on...


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## Kenpodoc

You're either a black belt or you're not. I vote Crock.  People worry too much about belts.
Jeff


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## bdparsons

Not being involved in Modern Arnis I can't speak to how this system specifically handles the probationary Black Belt ranking. However I have been involved in a Hapkido kwan that handled the same belt in a unique way.

In between the 2nd Brown and Black Belts there was an intermediate belt that was half-brown and half-black in color. The time this belt was awarded was at the discretion of the instructor while the person was learning the material for Black Belt, but no sooner thatn six months after receiving the 2nd Brown promotion. This belt was awarded for a six month period. At the end of six months the individual was tested on fifty percent of the material of all belt levels White-2nd Brown. The catch is that the individual didn't know which 50 percent of the material would be tested until hearing it requested during the test. This meant the individual had to be prepared to perform anything learned White-2nd Brown. If the person failed the test, they would revert back to 2nd Brown Belt until the instructor decided to award the probationary belt again. You had to pass the probationary belt before they would even consider testing you for Black Belt

Really helped in making sure the colored belt material didn't fall by the wayside while learning the material for Black Belt.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## bart

Hey There,

IMHO a probationary black is a bad idea. Anything probationary implies that it can be taken away and is not "real". Hence anyone wearing a probationary black belt would in fact be wearing a "fake" one.  

I think a better idea may be a "black belt candidate" rank. This would show the person that their effort and potential is recognized and they are on track to a black belt, they just need some seasoning. My Wing Chun teacher employed a "black sash candidate" rank in just such a manner and it was a very positive thing. The "black sash candidate" became a rank that everyone went through, even if only for a short time before becoming a "black sash". The rank was simply given and not tested for and did not involve a fee in any way. Almost all "candidates" stayed on to get their "black sash" including myself. 

My vote is a very tempered "crock".


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## MJS

Personally, I'd rather not have a Probatioary Black, and have students just test right for the Black Belt.  IMO, the Brown Belt ranks are the "Probationary Period" so to speak.  Why wait to the Prob. Black to see if the student knows the material, can perform it, etc.?  If they can't do it in the Brown ranks, they're not going to do it in the Prob Black either.


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## Dan Anderson

When PRof. Presas was alive it was a good idea.  I saw more "black belts" blow the scene until the probationary period was instituted.  Now I suppose it all depends on how well you know your student.  Hopefully you know him/her well enough when you do the promotion.  On the other hand, if you  are the lead instructor of an organization seeing the new black belt for the first time, from an organizational standpoint I see it as valid.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

It doesn't make a big difference to me either way, but not having it brings us more into line with other arts.


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## Rich Parsons

Palusut said:
			
		

> What is the value of rank of probationary black black belts (Lakan 0)? Do they add any value to the organization and individual or are they in essence a "Barney Fife" black belt, ie deputy with a gun and single bulllet.




Well I have heard and seen both, the Lakan rank used as a Probationary and also as a none probationary rank. So, in the later case you would have eleven ranks of Black. I think the probationary portion developed into the certificates being dated for expiration. 

Personaly I think it is a bad idea. It causes confusion to have a degree (0) Zero.  I only see one reason for it, and that would be to still have ten degrees, and the tenth could be reserved for GM R Presas. Otherwise I think it is difficult to discuss with other arts, and is better handled with an organizations re-certifcation process. 

Just my thoughts on the subject.


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## dearnis.com

My understanding is that  the "0 dan" originated when someone making up a rank sheet mis-read the rank list in Professor's book and took the  section designator ("Lakan") to be a separate rank.  Don't know if that is true, but it makes sense.  Such a rank may be appropriate for young martial artists, but NOT for adults.  As to people getting rank, then not coming back....that is why the certs had expiration dates.


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## Rich Parsons

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> My understanding is that  the "0 dan" originated when someone making up a rank sheet mis-read the rank list in Professor's book and took the  section designator ("Lakan") to be a separate rank.  Don't know if that is true, but it makes sense.  Such a rank may be appropriate for young martial artists, but NOT for adults.  As to people getting rank, then not coming back....that is why the certs had expiration dates.



Yes this did occur and unfortunately at about the same time so did the Probationary belt.

Many consider them to be the same but it depends upon where you were and what your cert says. Hence a lot of the confusion.


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## dearnis.com

Like so many things.....Professor was just not about the administrative end of the art...  Expiration dates are not a bad thing; I use them myself.  BUT the whole lakan vs. lakan isa debacle should die a long overdue death.


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## Mark Lynn

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> When PRof. Presas was alive it was a good idea.  I saw more "black belts" blow the scene until the probationary period was instituted.  Now I suppose it all depends on how well you know your student.  Hopefully you know him/her well enough when you do the promotion.  On the other hand, if you  are the lead instructor of an organization seeing the new black belt for the first time, from an organizational standpoint I see it as valid.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



I voted no thinking the same way as Dan here.  I believe the probationary BB rank was good while the Professor was alive and BB testing was done at camps.  This way if the person didn't stay active they never earned a "real" BB rank.

However if the student is being tested at your school and you are testing them then I think it's a waste.  You should know your student well enough by then and they should have a test strong enough for them to have really earned it.

At the camps that I've been to, tested in, and graded other people in, while the Profesor was alive I thought the grading was more a formality than a real hard objective test.  

No offense intended
Mark


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## dearnis.com

> At the camps that I've been to, tested in, and graded other people in, while the Profesor was alive I thought the grading was more a formality than a real hard objective test.



We have a winner!!


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## Dan Anderson

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> At the camps that I've been to, tested in, and graded other people in, while the Profesor was alive I thought the grading was more a formality than a real hard objective test.
> 
> No offense intended
> Mark



Dammit, Chad!  You beat me to it.  Mark.  The arrow hit dead center.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## dearnis.com

and I thought age and guile were supposed to beat youth and good looks....


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## arnisador

Have to agree about it often being a formality, BUT the Prof. often was watching people for days before during the camp and so had a good chance to make up his mind based on that data.


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## Dan Anderson

Yes, but on the flip side there were many who couldn't pass the muster in a rugged test who were promoted.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

Oh yeah, some people were certainly promoted for reasons other than their skill in arnis.


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## dearnis.com

Do NOT get me started.  My pet peeve are the loudmouthed high ranks who clearly could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag with two sticks!

 :soapbox:  :soapbox:


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## arnisador

Yeah, some people specialized in sitting on the sidelining jawing. Others just plain couldn't go from the drills to application. (It took me a while, coming from karate.) I could go on and on...this is why Dan Anderson is such a great example. A well-known, high-ranking, experienced arnisador...who is always the hardest working "student" on the floor when someone else is teaching.


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## Rich Parsons

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Do NOT get me started.  My pet peeve are the loudmouthed high ranks who clearly could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag with two sticks!
> 
> :soapbox:  :soapbox:




Chad,

I have the darnest time of trying to open up the plastic garbage bags, without ripping them. 

Yet, I fully understand yours and everyones comments about how it appeared.


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## MisterMike

The probationary black belt tactics was used at a kenpo school I know of in Massachusetts run by some fat dough-boy with a fifth dan who keeps distorted pictures of me on his website. I'll leave out any names to remain tactful.

I voted crock. You either made it or you didn't. And here I thought it was something only used by deceiving little men with psychological issues looking for a few extra bucks to maintain their full time schools pumped up with false claims of child psychology proven children's curriculi.

Ahhh, I feel better.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

With doing a seminar tour this month I haven't had time to reply to this thread. I'm currently working on a post that addresses the issues of the probationary Black Belt in Modern Arnis and it's evolution in the art. I will say this:

We in the *WMAA* don't use probationary status for any of our ranking.  

More to follow.


  :asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

This is an ugly topic. What makes this so difficult is that *MOST* of the MABBs (Modern Arnis Black Belts) have not been around long enough to see the evolution of the art and its procedures. 

Lets start at the 1988 Michigan Summer Camp. At the end of the test ALL of the promotions were announced. Several people were called up before me for Lakan. They were announced Name *Probationary Lakan, you will wear the 3rd degree brown belt.* When I was called, I was promoted to my Lakan. After the test I asked Remy what belt do you want me to wear? *He answered me by telling me to wear a Black Belt. *

At the 1991 Buffalo Summer Camp,  4 people tested for their Lakans. All of them were 3rd browns. At the end of the test three were promoted to Lakan and one received his probationary Lakan. 

Fast forward to the 1999 Florida winter camp Amy Antecki (one of my students) was recommended for her probationary Dayang. Remy thought she did so well that he promoted her to Dayang.

I want to be very specific in stating that these were the procedures while Remy was alive and well.  What paths the organizations have chosen since Remys death are theirs to make.  For those of us who have been around that long, they can verify these accounts.  As I stated before, we in the WMAA dont use probationary ranks.  I have no problems with organizations that choose to use probationary ranks.  Where I have a disagreement is when people make the statement that when you tested for Lakan or Dayang, it was automatically probationary.  I hope this sheds a little light on the situation and if anyone has any questions, feel free to contact me.  
 :asian:


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## arnisador

I honestly don't recall if my Lakan (at the 1989 Buffalo camp) was probationary or not.


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## evenflow1121

The way I was told in Kenpo, a probitionary bb isnt a bb a shodan is a bb. If you can not get your shodan at an age lower than 16-18 or whatever then you are not a bb, because that is obviously a req for shodan. 

Probitionary bb should be approached with caution, especially in schools where bb's irrespective of age are treated with seniority over other students--Ive seen some of these places were a 14 yr old probitionary bb is named an asst instructor and runs around telling older folk what to do--its unbelievable.

It is however, hard to generalize, probitionary bb's have been a part of a lot of systems because in those systems individuals feel that if the student has met the reqs for bb and is of younger age that they should be given a probitionary bb, thats fine, that is a legit reason, and one not worthy of my criticism. The other side of the coin is unfortunately, probitionary bb's are also a high favorite of McDojo's in order to keep kids happy and their parents paying for more training.


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## Dieter

Hi, 

in my opinion, besides from being a misinterpredation from the pink book which became "standart", I think the probationary black belt was used by the Professor to keep people happy.
What I mean with that? 
You all know, that one of the things that were important for Remy was, to make people happy. He did not like to hurt the feelings.
This way, he could give a brown belt a promotion, even though he failed in his eyes the test for Lakan/Dayang Isa. 
What Tim wrote fits in the picture. When the level was good enough, he gave Lakan/Dayang Isa straight away. If not, probationary black belt.

The reason why I think it could have been like that comes from a talk with the Professor after a grading in Germany.

We had, as usually during a black belt grading, a commission with 3 or 4 examiners from 3rd up to 6th Dan plus the Professor of course.
In the examination there were 2 students, who did not quite perform the way we expect black belts to perform.
So we were discussing, what we shall do and our decision was going towards a "fail" for those 2. Then Premy said, we could give them probatory black belt, so that they test for Lakan Isa in 6 or 12 months again. Well, we do not have the concepts of probatory black belt in our orgaisation and I had never heared of another system using that, at least here in Germany.  (There may ba some, I am just not aware of them).
I at least had the feeling, that Remy did not want to hurt these people by telling them they failed and thus he suggested using the probatory black belt in that case. 
But for in our organisation we don't use them, they failed.


Regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


BTW, this is only a theory. I don't know if it was that way (only Remy could hve told us) and I don't mean to say, that everybody who did get a probatory black belt in reality failed. No insult intended towards anybody.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Dieter said:
			
		

> What Tim wrote fits in the picture. When the level was good enough, he gave Lakan/Dayang Isa straight away.



This is not what I said. Lakan and Dayang promotions could be full or probationary. If you fully passed the test it didn't make you an ISA. It meant (in the early days) you could wear a black belt instead of a brown one. ALL belts could be probationary.


 :asian:


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## Dieter

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> This is not what I said. Lakan and Dayang promotions could be full or probationary. If you fully passed the test it didn't make you an ISA. It meant (in the early days) you could wear a black belt instead of a brown one. ALL belts could be probationary.



This means, that you had a probatory probatory black belt (wearing brown) and a probatory black belt (wearing black) and a Lakan Isa, meaning 1st black belt. 

Is this right?


Very strange



Dieter


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Dieter said:
			
		

> This means, that you had a probatory probatory black belt (wearing brown) and a probatory black belt (wearing black) and a Lakan Isa, meaning 1st black belt.
> 
> Is this right?
> 
> Very strange
> 
> Dieter


*
Lakan was NOT Probationary*. At one time the probationary Lakans where told to wear the 3rd Brown and the non-probationary Lakans would wear the Black. Later both would test for Lakan Isa.

 :asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> This is not what I said. Lakan and Dayang promotions could be full or probationary. If you fully passed the test it didn't make you an ISA. It meant (in the early days) you could wear a black belt instead of a brown one. ALL belts could be probationary.



This was suppose to read:

 If you fully passed the test it didn't make you an ISA. It meant (in the early days) you *would* wear a black belt instead of a brown one. ALL belts could be probationary.


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## Cruentus

Dieter said:
			
		

> Very strange



Yes...the whole **** pile is.

These conversations are always hilarious to me, because what usually occurs is an attempt to impose a consistant standard for Professors ranking system. There never was one. Our 2 Datu's here have seem to notice this. So..what you have is situations where a Lakan rank could mean a full black belt, OR probationary black belt, all depending on the circumstance and the individual.

What people need to understand is that rank and titles, as Remy Presas was concerned, were used for marketing purposes. He borrowed the belt concept from Japan (and probably the title concept from the U.S.), and used it to give his art structure and credability. It worked. When he got to the U.S. and began promoting his art, he saw how giving rank and titles could be used to give people credability for marketing his art, and for giving positive reinforcement to his students to keep them trying to improve themselves through Modern Arnis. This also worked.

The way Prof. Remy Presas handled rank was successful in many ways, but it failed in creating a standard. In his mind, it didn't matter if a 3rd degree was a better fighter then the 5th degree, or if the title he just gave out held any importance, or if Lakan really meant probationary black or not, or whatever. He didn't expect people to care so much about it, because in his mind it wasn't a competition between his students because he expected us all to work together. And, if there were any disputes or questions about who was better, it was solved on the training floor, not based on rank or title. In the Philippines that he grew up in, settling things by offering physical proof was the way it was. He expected us to operate the same.

So...was the probationary belt a crock or not? Were belts worth anything at all? Does your title or rank mean anything?

I think that the answer to these will vary per individual...
And when one figures out the answer for themselves, then I think that one should show us the answer through their actions rather then anything else.

Respectfully,

Paul


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## arnisador

Lots of good points, *Tulisan*.

There was no consistency in Modern Arnis ranks. As Mr. Hartman points out, _any_ rank could be probationary.

I think the titles were handled more consistently and with higher standards than the Lakan ranks.


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## bart

Revocable Black Belt?!?

So what is a black belt? Is it a measure of popularity? Is it a measure of how in tune one is to "group think"? Is it a measure of authorization to teach under an umbrella organization? If a black belt were any of those then perhaps it would make sense. But if a black belt is a measure of SKILL then this concept is absolutely ridiculous. So any deadly techniques mastered by the black belt are instantly rendered inneffective when the check for membership dues doesn't show up? I can imagine the dialogue:



> *
> 
> Ma$ter: You have failed me. You are no longer a black belt.
> 
> Disgraced Black Belt: I feel my powers beginning to ebb now that I am not graced by your radiance. My deadly skills are already beginning to fade.
> 
> Ma$ter: If you practi$e $ome penance, I will be $ure to forgive you. Then your power$ will be re$tored.
> 
> Other Student: But Ma$ter, Disgraced Black Belt taught me my "Ten Thou$and $pear$ Throwing" technique. Is it still deadly?
> 
> Ma$ter: Of cour$e, but NOT when it i$ done by Disgraced Black Belt. Hi$ technique$ USED to be deadly but because he has fallen out of my good grace$...he'$ really not that deadly anymore. But you can $till be if you do all that I a$k.
> 
> Other Student: Thank you Ma$ter!
> 
> Disgraced Black Belt: Ma$ter, I recognize that it was not the hard work, hours of dedicated practice, and solidity of the techniques in question that made me deadly, but rather your opinion of me. I must go now and abandon all hope of deadliness.
> *




I think that a revocable (probationary) black belt is a crock if it is supposed to be a measure of skill. If you teach someone to speak Spanish, how would you revoke it when they fall out of your grace? The Spanish is theirs if you have taught them well. They should be able to speak it before you certify them. Whether you would like to be associated with them and what they say is a different thing altogether. That might be likened more to being a member of a professional or trade organization and not a certification of fluency. IMHO it's very important to be open and honest about what the black belt is supposed to be when the students are working towards them.


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## Rich Parsons

bart said:
			
		

> Revocable Black Belt?!?
> 
> So what is a black belt? Is it a measure of popularity? Is it a measure of how in tune one is to "group think"? Is it a measure of authorization to teach under an umbrella organization? If a black belt were any of those then perhaps it would make sense. But if a black belt is a measure of SKILL then this concept is absolutely ridiculous. So any deadly techniques mastered by the black belt are instantly rendered inneffective when the check for membership dues doesn't show up? I can imagine the dialogue:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ma$ter: You have failed me. You are no longer a black belt.
> 
> Disgraced Black Belt: I feel my powers beginning to ebb now that I am not graced by your radiance. My deadly skills are already beginning to fade.
> 
> Ma$ter: If you practi$e $ome penance, I will be $ure to forgive you. Then your power$ will be re$tored.
> 
> Other Student: But Ma$ter, Disgraced Black Belt taught me my "Ten Thou$and $pear$ Throwing" technique. Is it still deadly?
> 
> Ma$ter: Of cour$e, but NOT when it i$ done by Disgraced Black Belt. Hi$ technique$ USED to be deadly but because he has fallen out of my good grace$...he'$ really not that deadly anymore. But you can $till be if you do all that I a$k.
> 
> Other Student: Thank you Ma$ter!
> 
> Disgraced Black Belt: Ma$ter, I recognize that it was not the hard work, hours of dedicated practice, and solidity of the techniques in question that made me deadly, but rather your opinion of me. I must go now and abandon all hope of deadliness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that a revocable (probationary) black belt is a crock if it is supposed to be a measure of skill. If you teach someone to speak Spanish, how would you revoke it when they fall out of your grace? The Spanish is theirs if you have taught them well. They should be able to speak it before you certify them. Whether you would like to be associated with them and what they say is a different thing altogether. That might be likened more to being a member of a professional or trade organization and not a certification of fluency. IMHO it's very important to be open and honest about what the black belt is supposed to be when the students are working towards them.
Click to expand...


Bart,

While I agree that the knowledge cannot be removed, but the association can be. Some people would only train to get a Black Belt and then leave and teach on their own or do their own thing. So I think part of it was to control those who were questionable, and if they did not stick around the rank would not be 'Honored' later. 

But, that is now how it always played out. 

BTW: I liked your quote including the $


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## arnisador

We had a long thread about revocation a while back. I forget where it was...


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## Andrew Green

opps... posted in wrong place...

 umm...  probabtionary belts was it?

 hmm.... I'll come up with something...  nah, nevermind, I got nothing...

 *walks out of thread in shame for posting in wrong place *


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## Cruentus

arnisador said:
			
		

> I think the titles were handled more consistently and with higher standards than the Lakan ranks.



I don't think so...but that's just my take.

Just to clarify, though, I am not saying that all people with titles or high rank didn't deserve them, as there are those who were deserving of what they recieved. I am just saying that I don't see the consistancy with any of it.

Paul


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## arnisador

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I am just saying that I don't see the consistancy with any of it.


 We're probably more in agreement than disagreement here. I just thought he titles were handled better--certainly not with full consistency, though.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Just got back from Florida, will post later. 

:asian:


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## Dan Anderson

On the West Coast, Prof. Presas would award a probationary Black on first testing and then at the next camp, he would award a permanent Black (lakan isa).  This kept people coming back.  I do remember, however, a number of people who didn't comne back even after receiving probationary black.

Revoking a black belt promotion, for me, comes after a serious ethics offense.  I have only revoked one black belt in over 30 years of teaching martial arts.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## BruceCalkins

I believe that promoting from within your school a student to Probationary Black Belt is a Crock for Retention and shows that you will give a Belt to keep a student. 

But When a Black Belt from a Different Style joins our school his rank is confirmed and they are allowed to where their Black Belt Rank. This honors their past training and Instructors. 

Once you have earned your Instructors Menkyo. We try to honor it. The New Student would be allow to wear their Black Belt rank but still have to Climb the ranks being tested for each belt. Time between Belt test is shorter because they most likely already have knowledge of the physical techniques you have to offer... (A Front Kick is a Front Kick) so to speak. But they are used as assistant instructors and respected as such.


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## The Kai

If you issue a probationary Black Belt, you are NOT giving them a black belt.  It is a time to see if they are mature enough to handle the rank, responsibility.


Outside rank, cannot be taken away, however if they are wearing our school patch they start over.  If they do something outside the school they can wear their old rank-provided they do not wear out patch or represent themselves as a member of our school.
In our school there is a specific way to execute the basics (most schools miss this point) if you view a front kick as throwing your foot out in front of your body, then obviously you need not to take this point into considertion


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## 47MartialMan

*Probationary Black Belt- Sounds like something criminal.*


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## Akashiro Tamaya

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> But When a Black Belt from a Different Style joins our school his rank is confirmed and they are allowed to where their Black Belt Rank. This honors their past training and Instructors.



How do you confirm their rank Bruce ?  How do you determine the rank holder's organization ligitimate ?  If you strut into my dojo, who do I call to confirm your rank ?


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## 47MartialMan

Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> How do you confirm their rank Bruce ? How do you determine the rank holder's organization ligitimate ? If you strut into my dojo, who do I call to confirm your rank ?


If you can call someone. Or what if they bought in documentation? This is the same dilema on how rank from one place and its requirements differ in another. So rather it is confirmed, will it still do justice in qualification in another?

I do not allow sonmeone with previous experience/rank to wear their rank. I will point out to our practitioners that such a person has previous experience, but I will not allow their rank to be a display issue.

They will start their training from the bottom. However, they may not be able to jump so far ahead. Some of our basic drills/routines have to be performed. I doubt, which I have seen, they these experienced newcomers can hold up to those.

I have seen beginners, develop tactics much quickly. Because they have develop this skill better, means to jump them ahead?


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## Akashiro Tamaya

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> If you can call someone. Or what if they bought in documentation? This is the same dilema on how rank from one place and its requirements differ in another. So rather it is confirmed, will it still do justice in qualification in another?



This was to be my next question, Good Call !





			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I do not allow sonmeone with previous experience/rank to wear their rank. I will point out to our practitioners that such a person has previous experience, but I will not allow their rank to be a display issue.
> 
> They will start their training from the bottom. However, they may not be able to jump so far ahead. Some of our basic drills/routines have to be performed. I doubt, which I have seen, they these experienced newcomers can hold up to those.
> 
> I have seen beginners, develop tactics much quickly. Because they have develop this skill better, means to jump them ahead?




Agreed. People with ego with the size of the himalayan mountains would find this disturbing.  I have seen people walk in our dojo, but when requested that they where white, I often hear response " But I earned this belt and why can't I wear it"  and yes these "clowns" often come from diffrent style of martial arts.


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## 47MartialMan

Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> People with ego with the size of the himalayan mountains would find this disturbing. I have seen people walk in our dojo, but when requested that they where white, I often hear response " But I earned this belt and why can't I wear it" and yes these "clowns" often come from diffrent style of martial arts.


Yea, these other experienced people who come in with higher ranks, at times, get bested by my lower rankers.


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## Guro Harold

Hey all.

This is great offshoot discussion but let's keep this thread on the question of the necessity of a Probationary Black belt ranking.

It would be cool if someone started a thread about honoring a person's previous rank in the General Martial Arts forum.

Thanks,

Palusut


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Palusut said:
			
		

> Hey all.
> 
> This is great offshoot discussion but let's keep this thread on the question of the necessity of a Probationary Black belt ranking.
> 
> It would be cool if someone started a thread about honoring a person's previous rank in the General Martial Arts forum.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Palusut




Wasn't this also how it relates to Modern Arnis?

 :asian:


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## 47MartialMan

Probationary Black Belts sounds like yet another means of "control".


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## tshadowchaser

A probationary Black Belt means that a person has the knowledge required  but the instructor wants to see if :
 1.  the rank goes to the persons head
 2.  The person can improve his/her ability (clean up their little mistakes)
 3.  Is able to pass on their knowledge
 4. Is going to leave because they made Black Belt and that was their only goal
 5.  Will honor and bring honor to their system and themsleves


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## 47MartialMan

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> A probationary Black Belt means that a person has the knowledge required but the instructor wants to see if :
> 1. the rank goes to the persons head
> 2. The person can improve his/her ability (clean up their little mistakes)
> 3. Is able to pass on their knowledge
> 4. Is going to leave because they made Black Belt and that was their only goal
> 5. Will honor and bring honor to their system and themsleves


Then as a instructor, the probationary period should be before the rank, not another in lue of it.


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## Dan Anderson

I don't allow a new student to wear their past rank either.  This is not to disrespect their previous award.  In fact, I usually commend them on it.  Rank worn in my school is, however, rank earned in my school.  Period.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## 47MartialMan

People that are allowed to wear rank form one school or another seem to think that such is like scholastic/collegiate credits. As sure, this can be transferred. Usually, IMHO, any school/instructor, that allows one to wear rank from another is only apeasing the newcomer for enrollment gratification.


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## arnisador

Well, what if they belong to the same organization?


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## 47MartialMan

arnisador said:
			
		

> Well, what if they belong to the same organization?


I speaking of different


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I think the thread may be off topic now. Maybe someone can split this thread.

 :-offtopic  :asian:


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## 47MartialMan

Yes, probstionary rank is in concern of those whom cannot fully award the rank to the one(s) who are deserving. As if shigh schools have a probationary diploma or colleges have a probationary Degree.


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## Guro Harold

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-Palusut
-MT Moderator


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## chris arena

I voted "NOT" a crock but really, it is up to the school.

I started training in 1994, trained hard twice a week in class, had a key to the gym, came in at least one or twice a week on my own to practice, (and clean the mats). Bought my teacher's "Silent Figher". put it in my garage and whacked on it most nights after dinner. 

I got my black belt is 2001. Gee, If it was some of the arts out there I could have been a 3rd degree and, If I really dream could be a certified master in a mystical art that I learned from a hermit after passing a deadly test.....

I also got a brown belt from the professer in 2000 and my Lakan Isa from his son in 2002 and guess what. I still feel like a beginner as I keep finding more stuff to learn in this art!

My probation was that it took me that long to be at a point where my teacher felt that I was qualified. Yes, some of us have the physical tools and the raw talent to get there faster.. So, I look at my probation as "That point in time" that it takes the individual. It is not that you spend 3 years and "presto" you _is_ a black belt, Or that you paid the money!

So, in closing, I look at this so called "Probationary Black Belt" as just that. You may have spent the time and money, can do the basics, look pretty in the forms, but can you really use it and have you proven to your instructor that you can now start to lead and not just follow!!!

Chris Arena
enthusiastic intermediate.


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## Haze

I'm thinking that the kyu ranks are probationary black belts. That is the time we are looking at the student and watching them grow til one day they have reached the level that we, as instructors require to award them the grade of BB.


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## stickarts

The Prof. never directly discussed with me why he used probationary blackbelt but the impression that I got was that he could award this level to someone that tested for Black but didn't quite perform well enough for Lakan and that making them a probationary would hopefully encourage the student to continue training and have them come back again. I think it was a tool he used whenever he thought it the best option for a given persons situation.
I think sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. 

We don't use probationary blackbelt for our Arnis or Kenpo program. Seeing the student on a regular basis over time we know that they are already operating at an advanced enough level to be placed on the blackbelt exam.
I can see in a seminar or camp situation where it may sometimes be more difficult in evaluating rank and that at times use of a probationary rank may have been useful for him.


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## Hand Sword

I know I'm posting late, and in truth, I haven't read all of the responses, so I'm not up to date on the current flow of the conversation. With that I'll just answer the question of the post. I have always thought they were a crock. If you've earned the rank via testing and received the rank-It's yours. I do understand the sentiment behind probationary periods, but, If you know the material, you know it. If you earned it, you earned it.


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## 14 Kempo

Hand Sword said:


> I know I'm posting late, and in truth, I haven't read all of the responses, so I'm not up to date on the current flow of the conversation. With that I'll just answer the question of the post. I have always thought they were a crock. If you've earned the rank via testing and received the rank-It's yours. I do understand the sentiment behind probationary periods, but, If you know the material, you know it. If you earned it, you earned it.


 
Exactly ...


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## bushidomartialarts

very little in the world is as motivating as promoting somebody to a position they need to prove they're worthy of.


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## Morgan

bushidomartialarts said:


> very little in the world is as motivating as promoting somebody to a position they need to prove they're worthy of.


 
Probationary grades give some a chance to complete the tasks without having to overcome the notion of having "failed" the first time through;
however the down side of that kind of promtion is that it can create the illusion that it's ok not to give it a testing your best shot... if a half-assed effort will yield a semi-positive result.

Personally, I prefer the all or nothing approach: you pass or fail.  Then you'll have to face up to the choice of re-testing or walking away.   Most people will re-test.

Morgan


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## tellner

If they pass, they pass. If they fail, they fail. If they deserve the prize they should get it. Otherwise wait until they do. It really is as simple as that.


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## tellner

Morgan said:


> Probationary grades give some a chance to complete the tasks without having to overcome the notion of having "failed" the first time through;



Failure is part of life. It's not bad to learn about it early in a way which teaches you to get up, dust yourself off and try again. We're reading off the same page. I know. Just restating and emphasizing one of your excellent points.


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## Sukerkin

Speaking only generally, as I clearly cannot address the ranking structure of another art from an informed position, I think *Tellner* last brief (couple of) post's put  quite clearly one of the major appraoches to testing in the martial arts.

Of course, there is also the point of view that you only go in for a grading when you have already shown that your ability is now of a sufficient standard to hold that grade i.e. the proceedure is more a validation of your progress than a test to see if you can pass or fail.

Either way, a probationary grade sits a little uncomfortably.  I can see that some feel them to have value and I respect their opinion but in a 'binary' poll I had to vote 'Crock' .


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## jks9199

tellner said:


> If they pass, they pass. If they fail, they fail. If they deserve the prize they should get it. Otherwise wait until they do. It really is as simple as that.


 


tellner said:


> Failure is part of life. It's not bad to learn about it early in a way which teaches you to get up, dust yourself off and try again. We're reading off the same page. I know. Just restating and emphasizing one of your excellent points.


 
I kinda have to agree.  I've not read the entire thread, and I don't practice arnis... 

But a lot depends on what you mean by a "black belt."  If it's a sign that a particular person has achieved a certain level of skill, knowledge, and proficiency in a particular martial art, then they really don't make much sense.  You either have the skills & knowledge & proficiency, or you don't.  After all, on Sunday morning after passing the test on Saturday, a person doesn't really know anything that they didn't Saturday... except that they could meet the standards under the pressure of testing.  What happens to a "probationary black belt" at the end of the probation period if they don't succeed?  They don't lose knowledge; you can't take that away.  You can strip a signal of the rank, like a belt or certificate, from them -- but they still either know their stuff or they don't.

But -- what if a black belt means teaching license?  Or ranking within the organizational structure?  Then, if after a probationary period, they haven't demonstrated that they can successfuly instruct or fulfill their duties -- sure, you can take them out of the job.  Pull the "INSTRUCTOR" tab off their uniform... whatever.  Their knowledge remains, of course.  But they couldn't cut the job.  That's a rank more like military rank than a knowledge rank...

I think that's part of the confusion in martial arts today.  People are trying to use two ranking systems, with different criteria, at the same time for the same people.  On the one hand, they're using rank like academic degrees; a yellow belt is a kindergarden diploma, a 1st degree black belt is maybe high school, and a 4th or 8th is like a doctorate.  (Higher ranks there are like being department chairs, or being a court recognized expert.)  On the other hand, they're using rank like a military or other, similar organizational structure.  A white belt is a recruit private/FNG, a green belt is maybe a lance corporal or team leader, a black belt is like a platoon leader or program manager or similar mid-level manager, and higher black belts move up the tier to vice presidents or CEOs.  But you can't really use the same systems for different purposes...  You can't block a kick with an armbar, but I think that's almost exactly what some people are doing!  They're expecting a black belt to simultaneously recognize knowledge and skill AND be organization status...


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## LawDog

I agree with the first part with tellners post #71. 
I also believe that when someone gets out on the floor and puts it all on the line they won't"fail" just not pass. They just need to practice a little longer and harder then try again.
Failure is when you don't try again.
:ultracool


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## Morgan

tellner said:


> If they pass, they pass. If they fail, they fail. If they deserve the prize they should get it. Otherwise wait until they do. It really is as simple as that.


 
Yeah, exactly what he said!

The best way to know as a student that you've done well is be tested and pass.  No half measures or limp wristed messages.

Morgan


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## Morgan

tellner said:


> Failure is part of life. It's not bad to learn about it early in a way which teaches you to get up, dust yourself off and try again. We're reading off the same page. I know. Just restating and emphasizing one of your excellent points.


 
You're right, failure is a part of life as is success.  Siometimes one has to fail because they simply are not up to the task at hand.  More practice and perhaps some new bits of information or insights will help the person to be more sucess the next time.

All the way through this thread, I'm speaking for myself, not any system or instructor.  If someone wishes to use a probationary ranking I will not oppose the idea; I simply believe that it is better to have a definate outcome - pass or fail.

Sincerely,

Morgan


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## Jai

I agree with the saying that you ARE a black belt, or you are NOT.

Crock.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Jai said:


> I agree with the saying that you ARE a black belt, or you are NOT.
> 
> Crock.


 
It is hard to disagree with that!


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## Guro Harold

Wow, almost 3/4 of the people who voted believed that the Probationary Black Belt was a Crock. What about now?


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