# Why is their so much disrespect for Karate? And what can we do to stop it?



## Manwithquestions (Feb 16, 2018)

I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

What can we do about it? Absoloutely nothing and frankly who cares.

If people have that opinion that's up to them. And you get an awkward look...um okay but really why do you need to talk about it to non martial artists I very rarely mention what I do. 

Don't worry about people's opinions they're entitled to their opinion just as you are


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## Anarax (Feb 17, 2018)

The "disrespect" towards Karate stems from two main things.

1) The overall quality of Karate has declined, especially in the US. People with poor skill representing any art makes the art itself look bad. One of the major factors that contributed to the decline was the influx in Karate's popularity.

2) The untrained and even those that train in other arts can be ignorant. They base their opinions on inaccurate information and the biased opinions of others.   

I've found myself in situations where my friends(untrained) know I train in martial arts and they give me their opinion on it. I try and clear up any misconceptions that they may have at the same time acknowledging the poor representation. I don't bring it up in conversations, but there are times people find out I train. My advice would be to not be ashamed, don't bring it up but know how to clear up misconceptions. George St Pierre, Lyoto Machida, Chuck Liddell and many other Pro fighters have karate backgrounds and utilize it in their fights.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 17, 2018)

When someone asked me, "Do you still do that chop chop stuff?" I knew that person has no respect to MA. In other words, that person won't deserve even 1 minute of my time. I still remembered that when my teacher tried to ignore somebody. He just said, "He is not one of us."


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## Anarax (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> why do you need to talk about it to non martial artists I very rarely mention what I do.



Bruises, black eyes and running into training partners in social settings are all scenarios I've encountered that make it impossible to keep it a secret. I've even had friends flat out ask me if I have trained in anything.


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## Manwithquestions (Feb 17, 2018)

Because I mean


Anarax said:


> Bruises, black eyes and running into training partners in social settings are all scenarios I've encountered that make it impossible to keep it a secret. I've even had friends flat out ask me if I have trained in anything.


How do you explain to these people? I find it difficult to explain sometimes


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## Manwithquestions (Feb 17, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When someone asked me, "Do you still do that chop chop stuff?" I knew that person has no respect to MA. In other words, that person won't deserve even 1 minute of my time. I still remembered that when my teacher tried to ignore somebody. He just said, "He is not one of us."


Its sad that we live in a world that can openly insult a martial artist like that. Just the whole bs about the crane move and the shouting in stuff when someone has to says they practice MA


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Bruises, black eyes and running into training partners in social settings are all scenarios I've encountered that make it impossible to keep it a secret. I've even had friends flat out ask me if I have trained in anything.


Well if they ask sure but that's it....also if you run into training partners you don't need to explain anything....as they already know


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Its sad that we live in a world that can openly insult a martial artist like that. Just the whole bs about the crane move and the shouting in stuff when someone has to says they practice MA


As I said before let them who cares the opinion of a few people means nothing to me. I think footballs stupid but that's my opinion everyone's allowed one


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Its sad that we live in a world that can openly insult a martial artist like that. Just the whole bs about the crane move and the shouting in stuff when someone has to says they practice MA



If that's all you have to worry about then you live a charmed life. No one has a right to 'respect', it's earnt. With so much going on in the world that we should be sorting out no one cares if someone is making silly comments about martial arts. We aren't 'special' just because we do martial arts.

If martial artists are getting so many black eyes and bruises that people are commenting then perhaps it's time they learnt to spar properly.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 17, 2018)

What do you mean by disrespect?   Can you give an example?   
I did notice you profile says your 16 years old.  I think that's the problem right there. It's not about you, it's not about karate.  It's the fact that your judging the world by a small group of immature boys.  This is what teenage guys do they mock and ridicule everything they themselves don't do.
Here is the advise,,,don't talk about karate. It's a no win situation. I know that sucks because your enthusiastic about it but outside the dojo no one will care and no one will understand.  That's just the way it is and it's not just karate it's a lot of different hobbies.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie


Welcome to MT!

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I'm guessing from your OP that you're in high school. At that age (and the ages immediately preceding it) kids tend to make fun of things that are unusual, unless they arbitrarily decide those things are cool. I didn't talk about my MA training except with friends when I was in school for that reason. Adult life (at least, when you're around adults who bother to grow up) is different. I get a lot of respectful and curious questions when folks find out I train MA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Because I mean
> 
> How do you explain to these people? I find it difficult to explain sometimes


I just tell the story of the injury. I go ahead and geek out about the fun of it. People usually either get that, or don't and think it's funny that I think it's fun. I'm good with either reaction.


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## _Simon_ (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie



G'day! Yeah what these guys said, people will have judgements, and it's not unique to karate. If you feel awkward about their judgements then part of you believes that a) judgement is real, and b) that you can attacked/hurt (by judgement). So it brings up moreso your feelings about martial arts, and also how you're viewed by others. So good opportunity to let go of what other people think about you . Only the belief in judgement causes the reaction within you, but its basis isn't upheld on anything true.

I've honestly had mixed reactions if it ever comes up that I do karate. I'll either get the "Hawaaaahhyaaaaa", "What belt are you?", or "Ohh that's sooo cool!"

To try to change other people's opinions is pointless, and not worth the energy. You can express yourself without fear of judgement, but generally I don't bring it up unless asked, and even then I just explain what it's about if they're interested. No need to lie, and the courage to simply speak about what you do may take time, but it's about a confidence in what you do and letting go of any guilt or doubt about yourself, and honestly not caring about the fleeting 3 and a half second judgements and opinions around.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 17, 2018)

i should add if your looking for people to talk to about karate.....well here we are


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## CB Jones (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie



Be proud of your training, no reason to hide what you work hard at.

When people purposely disrespect it...treat their comments as what they are....dumb and moronic


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## CB Jones (Feb 17, 2018)

Never let the opinion of dumbasses affect you.


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Never let the opinion of dumbasses affect you.


Why're they dumb? Because they don't like karate....that's not dumb that's just opinion. I don't like football doesn't make me dumb its just opinions. Everyone's allowed one


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## CB Jones (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I don't like football doesn't make me dumb its just opinions.



Do you disrespect those who do and make assumptions on them based on ignorance of them and the sport?


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Do you disrespect those who do and make assumptions on them based on ignorance of them and the sport?
> 
> I don't like Ice Hockey but I would be a dumbass for disrespecting a Hockey player's ability to play it.


What disrespect the op has stated literally nothing disrespectful happening to him. He said they gave him "an awkward look" whatever that is and not disrespectful at all.


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

Anarax said:


> The "disrespect" towards Karate stems from two main things.
> 
> 1) The overall quality of Karate has declined, especially in the US. People with poor skill representing any art makes the art itself look bad. One of the major factors that contributed to the decline was the influx in Karate's popularity.
> 
> ...


Why bother trying to clear up anything. If anyone says anything to me about it I just say okay cool and move on. I'm comfortable enough in my own skin to not worry about what other people about my hobbies


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## Manwithquestions (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> What disrespect the op has stated literally nothing disrespectful happening to him. He said they gave him "an awkward look" whatever that is and not disrespectful at all.


Mostly what irritates me the most is the whole "Wattaaaaa" bull I mean thats really disrespectful to me personally.Like I train this way because I love to train and for someone to call me over by saying "Hey Karate kid" Is really irritating. And also I hateeeee when memes and shows make fun of MA not just my style, Because there's people who train hard for this.


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## Anarax (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Why bother trying to clear up anything. If anyone says anything to me about it I just say okay cool and move on. I'm comfortable enough in my own skin to not worry about what other people about my hobbies



Being comfortable in your own skin has nothing to do with it. If friends or family members brings up a topic they have misconceptions about and I'm experienced/educated in said topic then I'll share what I know. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but I don't shy away from an intellectual exchange. I don't engage out of insecurity nor offense, it's something I enjoy doing.   



Manwithquestions said:


> How do you explain to these people? I find it difficult to explain sometimes


Usually I just say "training", "practice" or "martial arts". I rarely practiced only one art at a time, so I never refereed to what I did as the actual style.   



Headhunter said:


> Well if they ask sure but that's it....also if you run into training partners you don't need to explain anything....as they already know



No, I meant I'm in a social setting(with friends) and we as a group encounter one of my training partners. My training partner will then refer to something that's very specific to martial arts in front of my friends.


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## CB Jones (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Mostly what irritates me the most is the whole "Wattaaaaa" bull I mean thats really disrespectful to me personally.Like I train this way because I love to train and for someone to call me over by saying "Hey Karate kid" Is really irritating. And also I hateeeee when memes and shows make fun of MA not just my style, Because there's people who train hard for this.



Ask yourself this....

Why is that person's opinion important to you?  If the  answer is....it isn't.....then why stress over it.

If it is important then confront them...maybe they don't even realize they are disrespecting you.


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Mostly what irritates me the most is the whole "Wattaaaaa" bull I mean thats really disrespectful to me personally.Like I train this way because I love to train and for someone to call me over by saying "Hey Karate kid" Is really irritating. And also I hateeeee when memes and shows make fun of MA not just my style, Because there's people who train hard for this.


No offence buddy but you need to get some thicker skin and toughen up if that bothers you. People are going to do a lot worse to you in life than make a few Bruce lee noises and call you karate kid.

It's not disrespectful it's silly. If people did that to me I'd laugh about it because I'd find it funny.

I'm not trying to be rude. I'm serious if you let stupid things like that bother you life will kick you *** trust me. I get when you're a kid these things seem massive and convincing people karate is the best thing on earth is number 1 priority but when you get older you realise how small and insignificant these types of things are.


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2018)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Manwithquestions.

Don't sweat the small stuff, friend, just keep training.


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## Anarax (Feb 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> If martial artists are getting so many black eyes and bruises that people are commenting then perhaps it's time they learnt to spar properly.



It doesn't make sense to automatically assume that if a martial artist has black eyes and bruises that they're sparring improperly. It was be as presumptuous for me to think people who weren't getting black eyes and bruises were sparring improperly. Some spar harder than others and some instructors(senior and junior) push you harder. Being challenged at a level in which your motor faculties were sometimes insufficient isn't because of improper sparring nor training.

What about stick sparring, limb conditioning and contact drills? Walking away from those unscathed would be next to impossible.

I understand that these methods of training aren't for everyone, but that doesn't mean they are training improperly.


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

Also as for the actual question. Karate doesn't get anymore disrespect than any other style of martial art. If you told those you do jiu jitsu you'd get the same reaction. Wrestling not so much because its seen so much in schools. But honestly karate schools are still going people are still signing up to karate and frankly I've never seen any disrespect for karate upon from trolls on YouTube videos


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

Anarax said:


> It doesn't make sense to automatically assume that if a martial artist has black eyes and bruises that they're sparring improperly. It was be as presumptuous for me to think people who weren't getting black eyes and bruises were sparring improperly. Some spar harder than others and some instructors(senior and junior) push you harder. Being challenged at a level in which your motor faculties were sometimes insufficient isn't because of improper sparring nor training.
> 
> What about stick sparring, limb conditioning and contact drills? Walking away from those unscathed would be next to impossible.
> 
> I understand that these methods of training aren't for everyone, but that doesn't mean they are training improperly.


No general martial artist should be getting black eyes on a regular basis if at all. Bruises on the arms yeah sure but not black eyes. If they are it means the school doesn't have great control. I understand professional fighters getting them in training but your average guy who works 9-5 and trains twice a week really shouldn't be getting regular black eyes and if he is then that's a problem in my opinion


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## CB Jones (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Wrestling not so much because its seen so much in schools.



In the south (U.S.), if you are an adult and you tell people you train in wrestling....they probably think you are training in......


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 17, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> In the south (U.S.), if you are an adult and you tell people you train in wrestling....they probably think you are training in......


In the south (U.S.), if you are an adult and you tell people you train in Kung Fu....they probably think you are training in......


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## Anarax (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> No general martial artist should be getting black eyes on a regular basis if at all. Bruises on the arms yeah sure but not black eyes. If they are it means the school doesn't have great control. I understand professional fighters getting them in training but your average guy who works 9-5 and trains twice a week really shouldn't be getting regular black eyes and if he is then that's a problem in my opinion



No, not on a regular basis, but getting black eyes occasionally doesn't automatically mean improper sparring. Control is a relative term when it comes to sparring. If a black belt strikes me and it hurts or bruises that's not lack of control. However; if it breaks my ribs or gives me a concussion then that's a different story. It's doesn't take much power to blacken an eye, there have been times after sparing I didn't even know I had one until I looked in a mirror.


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## Anarax (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Also as for the actual question. Karate doesn't get anymore disrespect than any other style of martial art. If you told those you do jiu jitsu you'd get the same reaction. Wrestling not so much because its seen so much in schools. But honestly karate schools are still going people are still signing up to karate and frankly I've never seen any disrespect for karate upon from trolls on YouTube videos



There are different categories in which people(untrained or ignorant) place martial arts in. From my experience Karate,Kung Fu and Tae-Kwon-Do get more flack than Judo, BJJ or Muay Thai. Though I agree that TMA are looked down upon as a whole, there is more criticism directed at some than others. I think a lot of that has to do with poor representation of those arts and the media.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Mostly what irritates me the most is the whole "Wattaaaaa" bull I mean thats really disrespectful to me personally.Like I train this way because I love to train and for someone to call me over by saying "Hey Karate kid" Is really irritating. And also I hateeeee when memes and shows make fun of MA not just my style, Because there's people who train hard for this.


In the immortal words of Elsa, let it go, man. Sometimes people do things they don't see as disrespectful - work with their intent. I've trained in martial arts for more than 35 years (and there are folks on here who were training before I was a toddler), and I can't see how their misconception about martial arts really has anything to do with me. If they do that actually trying to aggravate me, that's even better - I don't really care about their opinion enough for that to bother me, and now I know I don't need to bother with them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> No general martial artist should be getting black eyes on a regular basis if at all. Bruises on the arms yeah sure but not black eyes. If they are it means the school doesn't have great control. I understand professional fighters getting them in training but your average guy who works 9-5 and trains twice a week really shouldn't be getting regular black eyes and if he is then that's a problem in my opinion


The occasional black eye will happen in some types of vigorous training. IME, they are rarer from sparring than from really intense defensive testing (both formal and informal). In grappling, they are often the result of heads running into heads.


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## Anarax (Feb 17, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Mostly what irritates me the most is the whole "Wattaaaaa" bull



I know what you mean, but this is what came to mind when I read your post. It's at the 30 second mark


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## Manwithquestions (Feb 17, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I know what you mean, but this is what came to mind when I read your post. It's at the 30 second mark


oh wow Lol I'm not gonna be able to get that out of my head


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I know what you mean, but this is what came to mind when I read your post. It's at the 30 second mark



Man, Dana [Latifah] looks so young there I almost didn't recognize her. Great kid, class act that gal.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> No general martial artist should be getting black eyes on a regular basis if at all. Bruises on the arms yeah sure but not black eyes. If they are it means the school doesn't have great control. I understand professional fighters getting them in training but your average guy who works 9-5 and trains twice a week really shouldn't be getting regular black eyes and if he is then that's a problem in my opinion



You got there before me!

I've had black eyes, bruises all over etc but if you are getting them so regularly that people are noticing and talking then yes something is wrong. It's not normal to leave every training session battered and bruised. Pro fighters actually get less than people think, they train smart, they can't afford to be injured and have to call off a fight.

I haven't come across much 'disrespect' for any martial art, a lot of misconceptions but a lot of interest as well. People who make kiai noises are just being a bit silly. There is a danger in thinking you are owed respect for being a martial artist, if someone wants to give you respect that's fine but getting upset because they don't says 'ego' to me.


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## Headhunter (Feb 17, 2018)

Anarax said:


> No, not on a regular basis, but getting black eyes occasionally doesn't automatically mean improper sparring. Control is a relative term when it comes to sparring. If a black belt strikes me and it hurts or bruises that's not lack of control. However; if it breaks my ribs or gives me a concussion then that's a different story. It's doesn't take much power to blacken an eye, there have been times after sparing I didn't even know I had one until I looked in a mirror.


If a black belt gives you a black eye more than once that means either his control Is bad or he's just a jerk. Black belts are meant to have that control so they don't hurt their students. You shouldn't be hitting hard head strikes at all. Sounds like you've had some brainwashing to make you think getting black eyes a lot is okay, it's not okay at all. Once every now and then okay accidents happen but if its a lot then that's just bad control simple as that.


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## JR 137 (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Wrestling not so much because its seen so much in schools.


I wrestled from 3rd grade through graduating high school.  Then coached on and off for 10 years.  The “rolling around with guys wearing tights” didn’t get old for most people.  Genuine friends having a good joke, and idiots I couldn’t stand.  It never really bothered me.  They all knew they couldn’t handle what wrestlers go through.


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## Anarax (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> If a black belt gives you a black eye more than once that means either his control Is bad or he's just a jerk.


There are those with a chip on their shoulder, but it doesn't make you a jerk if you give someone a black eye in *training*. Not proud of it, but I've given a few people black eyes before in training, it happens sometimes. The group I train with are very positive and good-hearted people. Me jumping to conclusions of their character because of a few bruises and black eyes is presumptuous.  



Headhunter said:


> Black belts are meant to have that control so they don't hurt their students.


It's not the intention of hurting you, it's the pressure of sparring an opponent with greater skill than you. As I've already stated, control is a relative term. Controlling your power to a reasonable degree is one thing, nerfing it to a degree where it won't even hurt is another matter.



Headhunter said:


> You shouldn't be hitting hard head strikes at all.


As I've already stated, blackening eyes doesn't require a lot of power.



Headhunter said:


> Sounds like you've had some brainwashing to make you think getting black eyes a lot is okay, it's not okay at all.


I said occasional black eyes, not "a lot". I understand that this style of training isn't for everyone, but it is for some people. The same goes for drills and other training, not only sparring. If I'm doing a blocking drill I want to block real attacks, I want to have to pick up on tells to react appropriately. Do slip ups happen? Yes, but you carry on. I've been to schools that have strict rules on no hard contact and zero head contact. Different schools have different training cultures, if it's not for you that's understandable, but that doesn't make it wrong. It's ignorant to say someone is brainwashed for having a different training method than you.



Headhunter said:


> Once every now and then okay accidents happen but if its a lot then that's just bad control simple as that.


I already said occasionally, I don't know where you got "a lot" from.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2018)

Getting black eyes is being hit in the head, getting hit in the head is dangerous however much you think it's improving your martial arts, in the end it's not.
Even 'occasionally' is damaging. We do full contact fighting and will do 60-80% full contact in sparring but we try very hard to avoid head shots in sparring and that's down to control. 
More now than ever the focus of the medical and sports authorities is on brain damage caused by shots to the head. each hit to the head causes damage, it also becomes cumulative. 
What Really Happens to Your Brain When You Get Punched in the Head

What Is CTE? | Brain Injury Research Institute


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Getting black eyes is being hit in the head, getting hit in the head is dangerous however much you think it's improving your martial arts, in the end it's not.
> Even 'occasionally' is damaging. We do full contact fighting and will do 60-80% full contact in sparring but we try very hard to avoid head shots in sparring and that's down to control.
> More now than ever the focus of the medical and sports authorities is on brain damage caused by shots to the head. each hit to the head causes damage, it also becomes cumulative.
> What Really Happens to Your Brain When You Get Punched in the Head
> ...


Not disagreeing with any info here about CTE - just understand that some folks accept harder sparring. If the level is agreed upon, it's not a control issue. Still a safety issue, perhaps, but not a control issue. The ones I've gotten and given in grappling and defensive testing were often more properly chalked up to poor control.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not disagreeing with any info here about CTE - just understand that some folks accept harder sparring. If the level is agreed upon, it's not a control issue. Still a safety issue, perhaps, but not a control issue. The ones I've gotten and given in grappling and defensive testing were often more properly chalked up to poor control.




When I said it was down to control I was talking about it in context of what WE do not in general which if you read my sentence you will see that's what it says. I also said head shots not grappling.

_"but we try very hard to avoid head shots in sparring and that's down to control. _"


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## jks9199 (Feb 18, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Its sad that we live in a world that can openly insult a martial artist like that. Just the whole bs about the crane move and the shouting in stuff when someone has to says they practice MA


Expand on your first sentence.

What is sad about it?  That people have the freedom to hold and share opinions without fear of repercussion?  Or that they disrespect each other and things that they don't know about and feel free to openly disdain things they don't really know anything about?

Even then... what's the opinion of someone who speaks from ignorance worth?  If I told you that the best restaurant in your town sucks... what's my opinion worth?  I'm not a great chef or restaurant reviewer -- and I don't even know where you are or what that restaurant might be... 

The sad thing that I see, across many arenas today, is that so many people feel that their opinion has equal merit -- no matter how little they know about a subject.


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## Anarax (Feb 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Getting black eyes is being hit in the head, getting hit in the head is dangerous however much you think it's improving your martial arts, in the end it's not.


You're missing the point, getting hit isn't the method nor the goal. Learning to deal with realistic energy both technically and psychologically is the goal. Blackening eyes and bruising *doesn't *require a lot of power. 



Tez3 said:


> Even 'occasionally' is damaging.


Damaging to the capillaries yes. Permanent brain damage? No 



Tez3 said:


> More now than ever the focus of the medical and sports authorities is on brain damage caused by shots to the head. each hit to the head causes damage, it also becomes cumulative.


Your article refers to *some* professional boxers and football players. Training hard and training intelligently aren't mutually exclusive, but there is a fine line between training hard and training recklessly. Training with realistic energy isn't reckless, but beating the hell out of each other with no purpose nor direction is. You're conflating *any *level and frequency of head contact to permanent brain damage is inaccurate. CTE is a serious issue, but it's caused by multiple consciousness and/or chronically severe head traumas. Does *over*exposure to the sun cause skin cancer? Yes. But that doesn't mean *any *contact with the sun will result in skin cancer.

If it's not for you I understand, it's not for most people, but that doesn't make it reckless.


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## Headhunter (Feb 18, 2018)

Anarax said:


> You're missing the point, getting hit isn't the method nor the goal. Learning to deal with realistic energy both technically and psychologically is the goal. Blackening eyes and bruising *doesn't *require a lot of power.
> 
> 
> Damaging to the capillaries yes. Permanent brain damage? No
> ...


Tbh all I'm seeing from you is you thinking your a badasss because you get black eyes in training. Its not tough getting beat up its dumb. Most of the brain damage fighters get is from sparring. That's why numerous boxers and Mma guys say they don't spar anymore or they regret fighting hard in the gym because it messed up their health and yes actually it takes quite a lot of power to cause a black eye. If it wasnt then every single boxer would have black eyes after every fight but they don't again there's absolutely 0 reason for anyone to be getting black eyes in training apart from professional fighters who get paid. The only reason for it happening is either the occasional accident, bad control or ego


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2018)

Anarax said:


> You're missing the point, getting hit isn't the method nor the goal. Learning to deal with realistic energy both technically and psychologically is the goal. Blackening eyes and bruising *doesn't *require a lot of power.
> 
> 
> Damaging to the capillaries yes. Permanent brain damage? No
> ...




I see you didn't read my posts properly, I said we fight full contact.
You are also not up on the latest information about head trauma and yes one hit to the head causes damage, what do you think 'damage to the capillaries is'? It's a bleed on the brain, a haemorrhage, small perhaps, but add more and more and you will end up with brain damage.
All contact sports people are at risk something that is being taken seriously by sports teams now, even football ( what you call soccer) watch for damage after heading balls. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say it doesn't require power to give people black eyes etc what on earth has that to do with anything? Also your comments on training are irrelevant as far as brain trauma is concerned. 

When your head gets hit, it doesn't have to be hard to cause damage, you can bang your head on the car door or a shelf, you can take a small hit in sports but there is still damage, keep repeating those blows and the damage is cumulative (Chronic traumatic brain injury (CTBI) represents the *cumulative, long-term neurological consequences of repetitive concussive and subconcussive blows to the brain.*) It doesn't have to be hard blows to the head basically, just blows.
Look at this How A Simple Bump Can Cause An Insidious Brain Injury then imagine small 'bumps' to the head over a period of time. You can ignore the medical advice all you want, it's your brain. You may think you are fine but the damage can turn up many years into your life and you'd wish you'd actually listened instead of dismissing it on the basis of out dated medical thoughts.


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## Manwithquestions (Feb 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Getting black eyes is being hit in the head, getting hit in the head is dangerous however much you think it's improving your martial arts, in the end it's not.
> Even 'occasionally' is damaging. We do full contact fighting and will do 60-80% full contact in sparring but we try very hard to avoid head shots in sparring and that's down to control.
> More now than ever the focus of the medical and sports authorities is on brain damage caused by shots to the head. each hit to the head causes damage, it also becomes cumulative.
> What Really Happens to Your Brain When You Get Punched in the Head
> ...


I'm not disagreeing that its dangerous to be hit in the head, but some people just do martial art differently then others. To say that "This school blah blah blah" or "that school blah blah blah" Is their opinion. If someone  wants to go hard why shouldn't they? thats just the way they train and thats just the way they enjoy training


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## _Simon_ (Feb 18, 2018)

Iz got da hit in head vunce. Oh may-b was fyoo tymes. Was good and fine? An I fink it dun no hurt. But is was of and at the in so yeh ;^


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## Manwithquestions (Feb 18, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Iz got da hit in head vunce. Oh may-b was fyoo tymes. Was good and fine? An I fink it dun no hurt. But is was of and at the in so yeh ;^


If someone wants to get kicked/punched in the face thats honestly their problem. They made that decision and I dont think that its right as a Martial Artist or a human being to say their path is wrong. Just because something isn't healthy that doesn't give anyone a right to judge that way of fighting


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## Headhunter (Feb 18, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> If someone wants to get kicked/punched in the face thats honestly their problem. They made that decision and I dont think that its right as a Martial Artist or a human being to say their path is wrong. Just because something isn't healthy that doesn't give anyone a right to judge that way of fighting


And what if they don't....what if someone doesn't want to get beat up yet the instructor allows it to happen even if the person doesn't want that


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## _Simon_ (Feb 18, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> If someone wants to get kicked/punched in the face thats honestly their problem. They made that decision and I dont think that its right as a Martial Artist or a human being to say their path is wrong. Just because something isn't healthy that doesn't give anyone a right to judge that way of fighting


(Ah.. I was just trying to inject a little humour into the thread, break up the seriousness, was totally joking, ah well  )


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> If someone wants to get kicked/punched in the face thats honestly their problem. They made that decision and I dont think that its right as a Martial Artist or a human being to say their path is wrong. Just because something isn't healthy that doesn't give anyone a right to judge that way of fighting




To do something without knowledge of the consequences is just stupid. I have no problem with kicking and punching people in the head if they wish but if they are ignorant of the eventual result then it's a moronic thing to do on both sides. Instructors have a duty of care to their students and pointing out the dangers of constant blows to the head is one of the responsibilities they carry. This is especially true when taking students who are under 18 as the damage to young people is worse.

No one is saying that this school or that school is doing anything in particular. We train fighters for pro rules MMA, we don't go as hard as you would imagine for a number of reasons, for one thing it's not necessary. What many people do is go hard at each other in sparring ( hard fighting isn't sparring btw) imagining they are improving their training, they aren't. It's great fun admittedly going full on, but it doesn't actually improve your technique because most people forget to think when doing this, it's literally wham bam. Fighters need to think, people who do self defence need to think, you can learn to hit hard without going all out on your fellow students. yes, you need to know what it's like to be hit hard, you need to know that you won't freeze but that doesn't mean you have to batter each other every week. Limit the damage your brain takes.


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## Buka (Feb 19, 2018)

Anarax said:


> It doesn't make sense to automatically assume that if a martial artist has black eyes and bruises that they're sparring improperly. It was be as presumptuous for me to think people who weren't getting black eyes and bruises were sparring improperly. Some spar harder than others and some instructors(senior and junior) push you harder. Being challenged at a level in which your motor faculties were sometimes insufficient isn't because of improper sparring nor training.
> 
> What about stick sparring, limb conditioning and contact drills? Walking away from those unscathed would be next to impossible.
> 
> I understand that these methods of training aren't for everyone, but that doesn't mean they are training improperly.



My, my, aren't we getting harangued over this. I think it's because posts are interpreted differently.
I didn't take any of your posts on this subject differently than what I believe you meant.

I don't like black eyes any more than the next guy. But, they do happen from time to time. It's why you have to keep your hands up. And it has been my experience that a good deal of them come from an unintended, grazing elbow when slipping a punch.


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## Anarax (Feb 19, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Tbh all I'm seeing from you is you thinking your a badasss because you get black eyes in training. Its not tough getting beat up its dumb.



I appreciate your honesty, but I don't think I'm "badass" nor the training I do is for "badassess". I'm conveying that there is an entire spectrum of training methods. Those that gravitate towards the harder methods aren't reckless. Not all hard training is unintelligent, but there are some that have an unintelligent approach to hard training.



Headhunter said:


> That's why numerous boxers and Mma guys say they don't spar anymore or they regret fighting hard in the gym because it messed up their health


Yes, I agree that numerous Pro fighters have taken so much abuse that their health is in a very poor state. However; there are numerous world renowned fighters that have had long carriers, trained hard and still have their mental faculties intact. Again, it has to do with the approach and methods of their training.



Headhunter said:


> yes actually it takes quite a lot of power to cause a black eye


No it doesn't. You have very little tissue between the skin around your eye and the bones below it. This has a dynamic affect and makes it more prone to bruising by not having any soft tissue or muscle underneath it to absorb and dissipate the force. I've been struck very hard in the abdomen/diaphragm area, but it doesn't bruise nearly as easily or at all because my abdomen has a lot of tissue and muscles underneath to dissipate the force. In summary, bony surfaces are easier to bruise.   



Headhunter said:


> If it wasnt then every single boxer would have black eyes after every fight


Boxing gloves makes getting black eyes more difficult. It has more so to do with the size of the gloves and making it more difficult in getting a strike to fit into such a small opening. Black eyes still do happen in professional fights though.



Headhunter said:


> there's absolutely 0 reason for anyone to be getting black eyes in training apart from professional fighters who get paid.


That's more of a personal preference, some people prefer this method of training. It has more to do with training under the conditions in which black eyes and bruises are more probable, rather than intentionally striking each other in the eye.


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## Anarax (Feb 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I see you didn't read my posts properly, I said we fight full contact.


I did read that part. When I refer to real attacks that isn't only referring to the power but to the trajectories and targets as well. I don't think your approach is wrong, but it's simply not for me. When I'm sparring/drilling I want to have to deal with attacks both high and low. If I get into an altercation I want deeply ingrained muscle memory response when someone starts swinging at my head.  


Tez3 said:


> You are also not up on the latest information about head trauma and yes one hit to the head causes damage, what do you think 'damage to the capillaries is'?


You misunderstand, I meant the capillaries of the skin, when they burst/rupture that results in visible bruising. I wasn't referring to the capillaries of the brain. 



Tez3 said:


> All contact sports people are at risk


We're all at risk of injury, some greater than others. There are accidents and injuries in all sorts of different training environments. The greatest injury I've ever witnessed was in Aikido. One student did the four directions throw and accidentally tore the guys shoulder. He didn't do it hard nor fast, he just did it at the wrong angle and the guy lives with the limitations from that injury to this very day. 



Tez3 said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about when you say it doesn't require power to give people black eyes etc what on earth has that to do with anything?


Refer to my response to headhunter



Tez3 said:


> Also your comments on training are irrelevant as far as brain trauma is concerned.


They might be irrelevant to you, but not to the topic. This isn't solely a conversation on brain trauma, but on training methods as well.



Tez3 said:


> When your head gets hit, it doesn't have to be hard to cause damage, you can bang your head on the car door or a shelf, you can take a small hit in sports but there is still damage, keep repeating those blows and the damage is cumulative


The questions isn't if there's damage or not, the question is where and to what extent is the damage? Getting struck in the head, walking into a car door causes damage. But there's not evidence that *any *contact to the head automatically causes permanent brain damage.  



Tez3 said:


> * long-term neurological consequences of repetitive concussive and subconcussive blows to the brain.*)


Repetitive and subconcussive are loose terms. By that definition getting poked in the head twice will result in CTE. The devil is in the details. 



Tez3 said:


> You may think you are fine but the damage can turn up many years into your life and you'd wish you'd actually listened instead of dismissing it on the basis of out dated medical thoughts.


CTE is a real thing and is a serious issue. However; the broad scope you are applying CTE is inaccurate. Saying *any *force to the head at *any *frequency will result in CTE isn't supported. By that logic *every *professional boxer, kickboxer, mixed-martial artis, soccer and football player in the world would be diagnosed with CTE. You can have both intelligent and unintelligent approaches to hard training, that's where I think most of the difference lies.


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2018)

Anarax said:


> You misunderstand, I meant the capillaries of the skin, when they burst/rupture that results in visible bruising. I wasn't referring to the capillaries of the brain.



So if it's hard enough to bruise the skin how hard do you think the brain hit the skull? 





Anarax said:


> CTE is a real thing and is a serious issue. However; the broad scope you are applying CTE is inaccurate. Saying *any *force to the head at *any *frequency will result in CTE isn't supported. By that logic *every *professional boxer, kickboxer, mixed-martial artis, soccer and football player in the world would be diagnosed with CTE. You can have both intelligent and unintelligent approaches to hard training, that's where I think most of the difference lies.



Actually the evidence of brain damage to some extent or another is well supported hence the great care sports now take with even the most amateur of athletes. Persistent, Long-term Cerebral White Matter Changes after Sports-Related Repetitive Head Impacts


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## pgsmith (Feb 19, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> Its sad that we live in a world that can openly insult a martial artist like that. Just the whole bs about the crane move and the shouting in stuff when someone has to says they practice MA





Manwithquestions said:


> Mostly what irritates me the most is the whole "Wattaaaaa" bull I mean thats really disrespectful to me personally.Like I train this way because I love to train and for someone to call me over by saying "Hey Karate kid" Is really irritating. And also I hateeeee when memes and shows make fun of MA not just my style, Because there's people who train hard for this.



  It's not really a sad world, it's more just a part of the age that you're at. Teens, especially after 15 or so, are trying very hard to figure out who they are and where they fit. Karate is unusual and, to be honest, a bit scary to most teens. Therefore, many of them tend to be proactive in attempting to make it less scary, much like whistling past the graveyard at night. Once you realize that the vast majority of ridiculous responses you get from your peers are due to their own inability to easily deal with the unusual, rather than actual disrespect, then it will be much easier for you to smile at their antics rather than be offended. Much better for your own peace of mind also! 

  I practice and teach a Japanese sword art. When people I work with find out what I do, I often get the same responses you do. Jokes about not making me angry, or people asking if I still do "that ninja thing" (it has nothing to do with ninjas). I just smile at them and say I'm still practicing. Sometimes you'll have someone that's genuinely interested and wants to know more, then you can open up and tell them about it. For the rest, just remember why they say those things, smile, and go on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2018)

Anarax said:


> We're all at risk of injury, some greater than others. There are accidents and injuries in all sorts of different training environments. The greatest injury I've ever witnessed was in Aikido. One student did the four directions throw and accidentally tore the guys shoulder. He didn't do it hard nor fast, he just did it at the wrong angle and the guy lives with the limitations from that injury to this very day.


Ow.

Just had to say it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> So if it's hard enough to bruise the skin how hard do you think the brain hit the skull?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've gotten bruising around the eye from a hit soft enough that I didn't even slow down my attack (defender hit me). That was with a bare hand - the hard knuckle can break the capillaries in that thin skin area without much force transmitted to the brain. It was probably not harder than if you reach up and face-palm.


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've gotten bruising around the eye from a hit soft enough that I didn't even slow down my attack (defender hit me). That was with a bare hand - the hard knuckle can break the capillaries in that thin skin area without much force transmitted to the brain. It was probably not harder than if you reach up and face-palm.



I understood him to mean that strikes to the head causes bruising *only *to the capillaries to the skin not to the brain at all. Nothing to do with the strength or lack of in the strike, he just thinks that it ONLY causes damage to the skin never the brain.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I understood him to mean that strikes to the head causes bruising *only *to the capillaries to the skin not to the brain at all. Nothing to do with the strength or lack of in the strike, he just thinks that it ONLY causes damage to the skin never the brain.


I read his meaning as they could damage the skin without damaging the brain. Whether that's true of the strikes in his case we can't know, but it is certainly true (assuming I read his meaning correctly, of course).


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## Anarax (Feb 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> So if it's hard enough to bruise the skin how hard do you think the brain hit the skull?


Both anatomically and physiologically the skin is the first line of defense, so the skin has no mechanism(s) to protect itself from trauma. However; the brain has multiple mechanisms and lines of defense to protect it. The skin, skull, blood brain barrier and cerebral spinal fluid are the anatomical defense mechanisms that protect the brain. Meaning, the minimal level of force required to bruise skin is significantly less than that required to cause permanent brain damage.       


Tez3 said:


> I understood him to mean that strikes to the head causes bruising *only *to the capillaries to the skin not to the brain at all. Nothing to do with the strength or lack of in the strike, he just thinks that it ONLY causes damage to the skin never the brain.


Refer to my quotes below


Anarax said:


> You're conflating *any *level and frequency of head contact to permanent brain damage is inaccurate.





Anarax said:


> CTE is a serious issue, but it's caused by multiple consciousness and/or chronically severe head traumas.





Anarax said:


> But there's not evidence that *any *contact to the head automatically causes permanent brain damage.





Anarax said:


> The questions isn't if there's damage or not, the question is where and to what extent is the damage?





Anarax said:


> Saying *any *force to the head at *any *frequency will result in CTE isn't supported.





Anarax said:


> Blackening eyes and bruising *doesn't *require a lot of power.


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## Anarax (Feb 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I read his meaning as they could damage the skin without damaging the brain. Whether that's true of the strikes in his case we can't know, but it is certainly true (assuming I read his meaning correctly, of course).


Yes, that's exactly what I meant and what I conveyed in my posts. I'm unsure why that wasn't clear.


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I meant and what I conveyed in my posts. I'm unsure why that wasn't clear.




Perhaps because as one of my students ( an army doctor specialising in brain trauma) says you don't understand.

You are on about skin bruising, I'm talking about the brain bruising which is likely to happen without any signs of bruising on the skin.


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## _Simon_ (Feb 20, 2018)

Ah just rub some tiger balm on the brain bruise, fixes everything


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah just rub some tiger balm on the brain bruise, fixes everything



Ah you too  My instructor's cure for everything. We had a lad who dislocated his shoulder and he told him to put Tiger Balm on, disturbing because my instructor is an Army Combat Medic.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Ah you too  My instructor's cure for everything. We had a lad who dislocated his shoulder and he told him to put Tiger Balm on, disturbing because my instructor is an Army Combat Medic.


What, that's not standard issue for medics? Great for bullet wounds!


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## _Simon_ (Feb 20, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Ah you too  My instructor's cure for everything. We had a lad who dislocated his shoulder and he told him to put Tiger Balm on, disturbing because my instructor is an Army Combat Medic.


Haha ah wow, but of course!

Yeah love it, works well for a lot of things (but alas... not everything...). To be honest I love the smell that lingers on you all day after applying it XD, the best smell...


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What, that's not standard issue for medics? Great for bullet wounds!




Tampax for bullet wounds I've been told! In Afghan the troops would go out on patrol with tourniquets already fastened around their legs so that they could be tightened immediately if needed. The morphine auto injectors also kept very close to hand.

Tiger Balm is good for mossie bites, headaches, stuffed up noses etc as well as smelling good, golden rules though is always, always wash your hands after using.


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## Martial D (Feb 20, 2018)

The thing about trying not to get hit, is to learn it you need someone to be trying to hit you!

Sometimes they hit you. 

If you are doing some style where nobody is trying to hit anyone else, that's cool, but some people like the 'martial' part of the art. Black eyes and bruises will sometimes be had.


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2018)

Martial D said:


> The thing about trying not to get hit, is to learn it you need someone to be trying to hit you!
> 
> Sometimes they hit you.
> 
> If you are doing some style where nobody is trying to hit anyone else, that's cool, but some people like the 'martial' part of the art. Black eyes and bruises will sometimes be had.




Of course sometimes, but it's not a good idea to have so many black eyes than your workmates etc feel compelled to mention it.


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## Buka (Feb 20, 2018)

The worst black eye I ever had, I gave to myself. Had a big, strong dog, Zambuka. A wonderfully sweet pup.

This is him on his twelfth birthday. [We were heading out on the town.]



Anyway, after the dojo one night I was laying down on a heavy, old fashioned, fold out couch watching TV. Zambuka came trotting over with his toy, one of those hard rubber rings. He wanted some play time. So I took the ring and would curl it toward me, him fighting like mad to pull back. He'd bunch the carpet and pull the whole couch. I'd curl and pull him toward me.

He let go. I was in mid hard tug, my other arm holding the back of the couch because he was so strong. Punched myself square in the eye. And man, it hurt. That black eye was one for the books. Total above and below the eye, jet black and purple. Looked like something from a car accident. Actually, it looked like it was painted on, that's how dark it was.

And, of course, in the following weeks I ran into every single person I knew. And most said the same things,  "Still doing that Karate, huh." Or "You still block with your face, chump?" All in good fun, mind you. Wish I had a pic of it, it would make me laugh today.


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## CB Jones (Feb 20, 2018)

@Buka

So Zambuka was the originator of the arm wrestle prank?


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## Buka (Feb 20, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> @Buka
> 
> So Zambuka was the originator of the arm wrestle prank?



Bwhahaha! That was funny. Young guys are absolute scallywags. It's like the atomic Sit Up they used to do in high school, on a weight bench. Fortunately, I saw it before it was attempted on me.


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## CB Jones (Feb 20, 2018)

Buka said:


> Bwhahaha! That was funny. Young guys are absolute scallywags. It's like the atomic Sit Up they used to do in high school, on a weight bench. Fortunately, I saw it before it was attempted on me.



Ahhhh the good old days.

Now a days If you would pull an atomic sit-up prank on someone they would probably arrest you for assault


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## Anarax (Feb 20, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps because as one of my students ( an army doctor specialising in brain trauma) says you don't understand.


That's great you have a student who's an army doctor specializing in brain trauma. Are you referring to a Neurologist? Nothing I stated was inaccurate about more defense mechanisms on in place to protect the brain opposed to the skin. I never contested the findings of what the CTE articles said. However; your interpretation is too inaccurate and your application is very broad. You cited numerous articles, but you went beyond what the articles stated by saying *any *contact to the head results in permanent brain damage. 



Tez3 said:


> You are on about skin bruising, I'm talking about the brain bruising which is likely to happen without any signs of bruising on the skin.


That wasn't your original point(s). See your quotes below



Tez3 said:


> Getting black eyes is being hit in the head, getting hit in the head is dangerous





Tez3 said:


> When your head gets hit, it doesn't have to be hard to cause damage





Tez3 said:


> you can take a small hit in sports but there is still damage, keep repeating those blows and the damage is cumulative





Tez3 said:


> So if it's hard enough to bruise the skin how hard do you think the brain hit the skull?


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## _Simon_ (Feb 20, 2018)

Buka said:


> The worst black eye I ever had, I gave to myself. Had a big, strong dog, Zambuka. A wonderfully sweet pup.
> 
> This is him on his twelfth birthday. [We were heading out on the town.]
> View attachment 21257
> ...


Oooouch :S

But what a beautiful dog! When they wanna play, it's playtime


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 20, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look.


The awkward look that you are getting is not disrespect.  It's a lack of understanding and anyone that does martial arts will get it.  Most people don't have the same interest or passion for martial arts that Martial artists have, and this often means that they aren't sure how to respond.

Oh yeah.  Only people who like martial arts talk martial arts and enjoy listening to someone talk martial arts.   

It's like if I tried to start a conversation with you about how great it is to create 3D rendered art and then I start talking about the models I use and why I like those models.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Of course sometimes, but it's not a good idea to have so many black eyes than your workmates etc feel compelled to mention it.


Most of the folks I've worked with would mention it on the first one. I know because I rarely work with anyone more than a few months (consulting), and each time I've had one, it's been mentioned by several people in the first day.


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Most of the folks I've worked with would mention it on the first one. I know because I rarely work with anyone more than a few months (consulting), and each time I've had one, it's been mentioned by several people in the first day.




Ah but you are a bloke. Black eyes on women elicit a totally different response even if people know you do martial arts. The first thing people do it look sideways at you, they don't mention it. They don't mention it because you might tell them something they don't want to hear and aren't prepared to deal with. For the rest of the day they don't look you in the ye when talking to you, it's easy to see how uncomfortable they are. The second type of reaction is the pulling aside into a quiet space and the fervent, 'you can tell me anything' talk. When you tell them it was martial arts, you get 'but no really you don't have to hide it'. They will never believe you.
There is a third response where they know you do martial arts and don't approve of females fighting, this view can also be held by martial artists. It's fine for women to do martial arts but not actually hit each other.

However what I meant and I think you know, that is where you train a couple of times a week and are always coming into work with bruises, black eyes and injuries. When you work with the same people everyday and they notice it's far from normal to be always covered in bruises.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 21, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but you are a bloke. Black eyes on women elicit a totally different response even if people know you do martial arts. The first thing people do it look sideways at you, they don't mention it. They don't mention it because you might tell them something they don't want to hear and aren't prepared to deal with. For the rest of the day they don't look you in the ye when talking to you, it's easy to see how uncomfortable they are. The second type of reaction is the pulling aside into a quiet space and the fervent, 'you can tell me anything' talk. When you tell them it was martial arts, you get 'but no really you don't have to hide it'. They will never believe you.
> There is a third response where they know you do martial arts and don't approve of females fighting, this view can also be held by martial artists. It's fine for women to do martial arts but not actually hit each other.
> 
> However what I meant and I think you know, that is where you train a couple of times a week and are always coming into work with bruises, black eyes and injuries. When you work with the same people everyday and they notice it's far from normal to be always covered in bruises.


I think my wife hasn't had quite that experience, but that's probably because most folks around her know she trains. When people know, they're less concerned of the alternative (or perhaps just more comfortable writing it off as MA than confronting the possible alternative). We don't see much of the attitude around here that women shouldn't be training MA.


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## Buka (Feb 21, 2018)

Getting back to the OP, I don't really find any disrespect for Karate or any other Martial Art anywhere. I mean, is that a thing?


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## _Simon_ (Feb 21, 2018)

Buka said:


> Getting back to the OP, I don't really find any disrespect for Karate or any other Martial Art anywhere. I mean, is that a thing?


Hehe bringin' it back!

Yeah I think it's more the presumptions people have about it more than anything, which we can't control anyway. If we're comfortable enough with what we do it won't matter what others think .

I guess it depends what's meant by disrespect... Whether it's credibility/effectiveness related or just people not liking and mocking what they don't know about (usually for reasons more reflecting something about themselves rather than MA)


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## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 3, 2018)

yeah at the Facebook page of the Muay Thai/BJJ gym i used to train at this one girl who is really into BJJ said in a mocking way that one of her coworkers practices Karate. a bunch of people from the gym were poking fun at the Karate person and talking about how inferior it is to BJJ and asking if she could "Karate" her way out of a choke hold. I mean no disrespect to BJJ it's a great martial art, but I have heard a lot of people talk about it like it's the holy grail.


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## pdg (Mar 3, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> asking if she could "Karate" her way out of a choke hold



Could they "BJJ" their way past the "Karate" to apply the choke in the first place?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> yeah at the Facebook page of the Muay Thai/BJJ gym i used to train at this one girl who is really into BJJ said in a mocking way that one of her coworkers practices Karate. a bunch of people from the gym were poking fun at the Karate person and talking about how inferior it is to BJJ and asking if she could "Karate" her way out of a choke hold. I mean no disrespect to BJJ it's a great martial art, but I have heard a lot of people talk about it like it's the holy grail.


This comes, IMO, from some of the marketing talk the Gracies did early on. There are a lot of BJJ folks who couldn't BJJ their way out of a good (meaning well-applied) rear naked choke, too, until they reach a certain level. And many (especially if trained specifically for BJJ competition) would have issues with someone bringing punches, unless they managed to shoot in and get to the ground fast.

Those people you're talking about are weenies. Arrogant weenies, at that. I have no time for them. There are much better informed, more rational, and better mannered BJJ folks to talk to - we have a few of them here on MT.


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This comes, IMO, from some of the marketing talk the Gracies did early on. There are a lot of BJJ folks who couldn't BJJ their way out of a good (meaning well-applied) rear naked choke, too, until they reach a certain level. And many (especially if trained specifically for BJJ competition) would have issues with someone bringing punches, unless they managed to shoot in and get to the ground fast.
> 
> Those people you're talking about are weenies. Arrogant weenies, at that. I have no time for them. There are much better informed, more rational, and better mannered BJJ folks to talk to - we have a few of them here on MT.


Yep the Gracie's were extremely arrogant and refused to adapt. Hence why no gracie has done much in Mma since Royce. I'm not a fan of the Gracie's attitude and I train at a gracie Barra school but I think their attitude sucks but luckily the majority of the bjj community is better than that. At my place people know I'm a black belt in karate and the response is "ah cool" or "nice do you still train?"


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 3, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> yeah at the Facebook page of the Muay Thai/BJJ gym i used to train at this one girl who is really into BJJ said in a mocking way that one of her coworkers practices Karate. a bunch of people from the gym were poking fun at the Karate person and talking about how inferior it is to BJJ and asking if she could "Karate" her way out of a choke hold. I mean no disrespect to BJJ it's a great martial art, but I have heard a lot of people talk about it like it's the holy grail.


Funny thing is in kenpo karate at least there is exactly that a way to karate out of rear naked choke


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 3, 2018)

Buka said:


> Getting back to the OP, I don't really find any disrespect for Karate or any other Martial Art anywhere. I mean, is that a thing?


Not in the real world I find. Only sad losers on the Internet who most have never trained in /anything/ but want to put people down to make themselves feel better about their sad empty lives


----------



## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 3, 2018)

pdg said:


> Could they "BJJ" their way past the "Karate" to apply the choke in the first place?


I thought the exact same thing


----------



## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This comes, IMO, from some of the marketing talk the Gracies did early on. There are a lot of BJJ folks who couldn't BJJ their way out of a good (meaning well-applied) rear naked choke, too, until they reach a certain level. And many (especially if trained specifically for BJJ competition) would have issues with someone bringing punches, unless they managed to shoot in and get to the ground fast.
> 
> Those people you're talking about are weenies. Arrogant weenies, at that. I have no time for them. There are much better informed, more rational, and better mannered BJJ folks to talk to - we have a few of them here on MT.



yeah i watched a video of one of the Gracies, i think it was Royce, who submitted a Hapkido black belt. he narrated the video "i bet he feels bad that he wasted the last 15 years of his life training Hapkido" that pissed me off something serious


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 3, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> yeah i watched a video of one of the Gracies, i think it was Royce, who submitted a Hapkido black belt. he narrated the video "i bet he feels bad that he wasted the last 15 years of his life training Hapkido" that pissed me off something serious


Someone should narrate his fight with Hughes and say I bet he feels bad that he wasted his life training jiu jitsu because its exactly the same context in the way it's said


----------



## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 3, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Someone should narrate his fight with Hughes and say I bet he feels bad that he wasted his life training jiu jitsu because its exactly the same context in the way it's said


yeah I'm with you on that


----------



## Mountie (Mar 3, 2018)

pdg said:


> Could they "BJJ" their way past the "Karate" to apply the choke in the first place?



This isn't karate, but I had to include it.  Too many BJJ schools aren't training to be well rounded fighters anymore, and they're useless on their feet.


----------



## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 3, 2018)

Mountie said:


> This isn't karate, but I had to include it.  Too many BJJ schools aren't training to be well rounded fighters anymore, and they're useless on their feet.


 yeah BJJ works well on the ground but on it's feet not so much. when i was taking BJJ the only punch they taught me to defend against was the haymaker, which is a seriously easy punch to defend against. other punches such as jabs and crosses, they told me i need to take Boxing


----------



## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 3, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> yeah BJJ works well on the ground but on it's feet not so much. when i was taking BJJ the only punch they taught me to defend against was the haymaker, which is a seriously easy punch to defend against. other punches such as jabs and crosses, they told me i need to take Boxing


and once again i am not trying to disrespect Brazilian Jiujitsu. in certain situations it can be extremely effective. i'm just pointing out that it is not perfect and it is not superior to every other martial art... the only reason I'm saying that is because i have heard numerous BJJ practitioners basically say it is completely superior to every other martial art. with that i disagree. i know this thread is supposed to be about Karate and i kind of got sidetracked but yeah Karate is a great martial art and so is BJJ. that's all


----------



## Mountie (Mar 3, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> and once again i am not trying to disrespect Brazilian Jiujitsu. in certain situations it can be extremely effective. i'm just pointing out that it is not perfect and it is not superior to every other martial art... the only reason I'm saying that is because i have heard numerous BJJ practitioners basically say it is completely superior to every other martial art. with that i disagree. i know this thread is supposed to be about Karate and i kind of got sidetracked but yeah Karate is a great martial art and so is BJJ. that's all



If someone loves their martial art, go for it.  Get a strong base style and improve your skills.  And we can have a discussion about pros and cons of martial arts.  No style is perfect.

However, I worry when I see people doing mental gymnastics to discredit other styles or justify over-specializing.


----------



## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 3, 2018)

Mountie said:


> If someone loves their martial art, go for it.  Get a strong base style and improve your skills.  And we can have a discussion about pros and cons of martial arts.  No style is perfect.
> 
> However, I worry when I see people doing mental gymnastics to discredit other styles or justify over-specializing.



yep, no martial art is perfect. different martial arts work better for different people. i strongly believe in the mentality that one martial art is not superior to another


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 4, 2018)

Mountie said:


> This isn't karate, but I had to include it.  Too many BJJ schools aren't training to be well rounded fighters anymore, and they're useless on their feet.


Two blue belts and one white against the boxing instructor. Level of skill wins.


----------



## Mountie (Mar 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Two blue belts and one white against the boxing instructor. Level of skill wins.



Absolutely, and good for them for testing themselves like this.  

The point there was for people who say BJJ will totally dominate a striking style, especially the couch/online warriors who watched UFC 93 and think they now know everything about fighting.  BJJ can do well, but you have to train/test yourself and round out your game somewhat.


----------



## donald1 (Mar 4, 2018)

The best thing you can do is keep training, ignore their ignorance because the effectiveness of your style will become more evident. If they still can't see the effectiveness of it that's their problem, but it doesn't really matter because a lot of people already know it's effective. A couple goofballs won't change that.


----------



## Buka (Mar 4, 2018)

I never met Royce, [although I believe he's going to be on island next week] but from what I've seen of him over the years he seriously lacks social skills, language and communication skills, too.

As for other members of the Gracie family my experiences have been the opposite of what's been mentioned. They are humble, quiet, friendly and would never, and I mean never, speak badly about another Martial Art. I've been with some of them at seminars, trained at their schools, even been in their home, it's just not something they do.

As for BJJ students spouting off about other arts, I really haven't seen or heard that either. I'm not doubting what you guys have said, not at all, I just haven't seen or heard it. Now, if you're talking about white belts, which there always seems to be more of than any other rank, that's a different story. A six month white belt can be like an egotistical cannibal....just completely full of himself. But white belts in _any_ art are somewhere between a carrot and a parrot on the intelligence scale, and somewhere between a rookie security guard and a  politician on the full of you-know-what scale. [no offense intended to carrots and parrots]

As for any art being perfect, ain't no such thing.....other than, you know, Sinanju and Ameri-Do-Te.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> I never met Royce, [although I believe he's going to be on island next week] but from what I've seen of him over the years he seriously lacks social skills, language and communication skills, too.
> 
> As for other members of the Gracie family my experiences have been the opposite of what's been mentioned. They are humble, quiet, friendly and would never, and I mean never, speak badly about another Martial Art. I've been with some of them at seminars, trained at their schools, even been in their home, it's just not something they do.
> 
> ...


I don't know any of the Gracies, and really don't even know enough about them to separate the messages from them. I do know that the ones I've seen doing instructional videos seem to be nice, and I've never heard any of those say anything that wasn't kind or at least constructive. I do know there was a period where "the Gracies" (generically - not sure which were involved) spent some energy showing up folks in other arts through challenges. I think that period contributed to the smack talking mentioned.


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## jks9199 (Mar 4, 2018)

There was a whole hell of a lot of hype early on when the Gracies were beginning to make a name for themselves, around the first few UFCs.  How much of it was marketing, how much of it was "new converts" who were dismayed by the failures of their own arts against the Gracies in the UFC events... don't know.

All in all, BJJ is a solid system, and there is a lot more to it than the sport side most commonly seen.  I know several BJJ instructors who are frustrated that so many are focusing on the sport side and neglecting the practical self defense aspects.

In the end, though, there's no one ultimate system.  (Sinanju excepted... but I lack enough gold to get the attention of a certain little Korean...)  It all comes down to how you train, and what your goals and desires are.  There are people out there who could make patty-cake deadly dangerous...


----------



## pdg (Mar 4, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> There are people out there who could make patty-cake deadly dangerous...



Indeed, even if it's only a training drill.


----------



## Buka (Mar 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know any of the Gracies, and really don't even know enough about them to separate the messages from them. I do know that the ones I've seen doing instructional videos seem to be nice, and I've never heard any of those say anything that wasn't kind or at least constructive. I do know there was a period where "the Gracies" (generically - not sure which were involved) spent some energy showing up folks in other arts through challenges. I think that period contributed to the smack talking mentioned.



I think you're right. The Gracie challenge thing dates back to their Vale Tudo days. You know how a lot of young  Brazilian guys are.


 

Then, when Rorian Gracie first came state side, he issued challenges to everyone, and filmed them. As....what's the word I'm looking for, obnoxious? Over the top? Presumptuous? I don't know, but it was one hell of a great marketing idea. Worked like a son of a gun, it did.

Soon, everyone in the L.A area knew where his school was, and what it was like as a fighting system.

Not the way I would do things, but I certainly didn't have the talent and skills sets to do so, so what I would have maybe done doesn't amount to a hill of refried beans.


----------



## Mountie (Mar 5, 2018)

I actually like that BJJ practitioners went around the world and challenged other styles.  It's how it learned and grew so well while martial arts like karate stagnated.  

Karate masters used to do the same thing, travelling around Asia and learning different martial arts to incorporate into their style.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2018)

Mountie said:


> I actually like that BJJ practitioners went around the world and challenged other styles.  It's how it learned and grew so well while martial arts like karate stagnated.
> 
> Karate masters used to do the same thing, travelling around Asia and learning different martial arts to incorporate into their style.


Oh, I definitely like that side of it - it provided a wake-up to stagnating schools (at least, I perceive them as having done that). It was the rhetoric around it, and some of the attitude of it.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2018)

Mountie said:


> while martial arts like karate stagnated.



Some places in every style stagnate, not all karateka do though.


----------



## jobo (Mar 6, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie


either flaunt it and be proud of what you do or don't volunteer information about yourself to strangers. Or a bit of both.

friends know you in contex and will make judgments about you through knowing you. Strangers will just run stereo types and quiet possibly take the mickey. But then they might do much the same if you told them you did figure skating, crown green bowling, or ball room dancing, which are all excellent pursuits that have,an image problem.

i personally don't tell strangers i do karate, as i cant be bothered to have the follow up conversation. Where you can find yourself trying to justify your sport, to people who opinions are of no value to me. Just tell them you " work out" if you feel obliged to answer at all


----------



## Mountie (Mar 6, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Some places in every style stagnate, not all karateka do though.



I agree.  Most of the people I'd consider to be martial arts masters have a karate background mixed with other styles.  I love karate as a style, but I know enough of it's history to be wary of the accursed "McDojo".

Karate and Tae Kwon Do were the popular names decades ago.  These days, "MMA".  Some schools are great, others have instructors who should be be teaching.  But that's a whole different rant.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2018)

Mountie said:


> I agree.  Most of the people I'd consider to be martial arts masters have a karate background mixed with other styles.  I love karate as a style, but I know enough of it's history to be wary of the accursed "McDojo".
> 
> Karate and Tae Kwon Do were the popular names decades ago.  These days, "MMA".  Some schools are great, others have instructors who should be be teaching.  But that's a whole different rant.




The history of karate where though? The history is different in North America to Europe though where we have less of the McDojo and vey little of the childcare culture that exists in North America. The people who brought Japanese martial arts to us are different from the ones who brought it back especially to the US. We had Japanese instructors who travelled to the UK and Europe to bring us karate and Judo not returning servicemen with incomplete knowledge. In my style of karate there is a vibrant community not a stagnant one, I also train, coach, judge, ref and corner MMA and have done for nearly 20 years now ( I'm shuddering at that because the time has gone so quickly, it's over 40 years since I started martial arts) 
Most karate and in fact not just that is trained in church and village halls, sports and leisure centres as well as schools after hours so it retains that grass roots flavour.


----------



## pdg (Mar 7, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> we have less of the McDojo and vey little of the childcare culture that exists in North America



There's a few McDojos 

I've not seen anything of the childcare martial arts club though - I suppose it must exist, but has much less of a foothold...


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## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2018)

pdg said:


> There's a few McDojos
> 
> I've not seen anything of the childcare martial arts club though - I suppose it must exist, but has much less of a foothold...




I did say less of the Mcdojos not that there weren't any. We don't have the childcare culture because if you look after children here you have to meet Ofsted standards and inspections as well as be qualified in childcare, even childminders have to be these days.


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## Mountie (Mar 7, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The history of karate where though? The history is different in North America to Europe though where we have less of the McDojo and vey little of the childcare culture that exists in North America. The people who brought Japanese martial arts to us are different from the ones who brought it back especially to the US. We had Japanese instructors who travelled to the UK and Europe to bring us karate and Judo not returning servicemen with incomplete knowledge. In my style of karate there is a vibrant community not a stagnant one, I also train, coach, judge, ref and corner MMA and have done for nearly 20 years now ( I'm shuddering at that because the time has gone so quickly, it's over 40 years since I started martial arts)
> Most karate and in fact not just that is trained in church and village halls, sports and leisure centres as well as schools after hours so it retains that grass roots flavour.



I'm not looking to insult karate.  I love karate, used to train in it and still want to go back and round out that training.  In its complete form it's one of the most well rounded martial arts.  

I also love history and am currently studying karate history, mainly from Okinawa to Japan to North America.  I haven't read its history in England. but now that I think of it a lot of the bunkai experts I've been learning from are from England so maybe I should give that a closer look.  If you have any articles/books to recommend, let me know.

From what I've read so far, and I may be wrong because I'm not an expert, when karate went to Japan the JKF stripped out parts that overlapped with judo and aikido, turning it from a well rounded art into a striking art.  Karate spread from there.  Came to Canada in the 30s and the US in the 50s, as you said from servicemen or people who went overseas, got a shodan then returned.  It's debatable how many of them were actually taught the complete art, both from the time they spend and Japan's relations with foreigners at the time, but I haven't explored that in detail.

The "McDojo" phase came in the 80s and early 90s when karate was the popular martial art.  It was Kung Fu during Bruce Lee's time; what you slap on a dojo sign to get the most students.  It doesn't mean the art is bad, or even that a lot of the dojos were bad, just some instructors which resulted in it getting watered down further.

I think we're seeing a return to form from karate practitioners today.  The bandwagon group has gone to other arts and only the dedicated remain.  Fighters with karate bases, even in competition are showing impressive footwork, distance and timing.  One of the reasons I'm thinking about returning to it to aid my current JJJ training.  I'm good up close but it's tough getting near someone who knows their striking.  Karate mixes with that quite well.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2018)

Mountie said:


> I actually like that BJJ practitioners went around the world and challenged other styles.  It's how it learned and grew so well while martial arts like karate stagnated.
> 
> Karate masters used to do the same thing, travelling around Asia and learning different martial arts to incorporate into their style.


It does strike me as being a bit sociopathic, tho.  Perhaps a bit of sociopathy is what it takes if you want to really make a name for yourself in modern martial arts.  I dunno.  Honestly, it’s a turn-off for me, the notion that someone is driven to prove everyone else inferior.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> I think you're right. The Gracie challenge thing dates back to their Vale Tudo days. You know how a lot of young  Brazilian guys are.
> 
> View attachment 21285
> 
> ...


I remember one of the Gracie’s (maybe Royce?) had printed a column in Black Belt magazine where he publically challenged Mike Tyson to a match.  He was very arrogant in how he presented it.  This was in the mid-late 1990s.  It was a real turn-off for me, soured me to the very notion of studying with them.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2018)

Mountie said:


> I haven't read its history in England




UK


----------



## pdg (Mar 7, 2018)

Mountie said:


> I haven't read its history in England.





Tez3 said:


> UK



Careful there Mountie, using 'England' as a generic reference for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is tantamount to me calling you an American 

You can usually get away with 'UK', slightly less usually 'Britain' (unless you're talking to the Irish), but very rarely / almost never England unless specifically referring to the English (which definitely excludes the Scottish, Welsh and Irish).

Southern Ireland, well I'm woefully underqualified to comment except to state "use none of the above"...


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 7, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I remember one of the Gracie’s (maybe Royce?) had printed a column in Black Belt magazine where he publically challenged Mike Tyson to a match.  He was very arrogant in how he presented it.  This was in the mid-late 1990s.  It was a real turn-off for me, soured me to the very notion of studying with them.


That was nothing more than publicity.  I’m quite sure Gracie highly doubted Tyson knew of or payed attention to Black Belt Magazine and the like.

He knew Tyson would never accept.  Why would he get in the cage for about $50k or whatever they were paying the tournament winners back then, when he was paid around $22 million to fight McNeeley?  He didn’t have the money to pay Tyson’s “going rate” and he knew there’d be no way Tyson would risk his career for Gracie and Gracie money.

If Gracie really wanted to fight Tyson, all he’d have to do was go hang out at a bar and insult him a bit.  Several others were stupid enough to do just that.

Gracie isn’t stupid.  Challenging Tyson was part of the marketing machine.  He knew there was no way Tyson would get in the cage.  But if he did, I’m pretty sure Tyson in his prime would’ve hurt him pretty good.  Tyson didn’t exactly play by the rules.  As great of a boxer as he was back then, I’d bet a ton of money that he was an even better street fighter.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That was nothing more than publicity.  I’m quite sure Gracie highly doubted Tyson knew of or payed attention to Black Belt Magazine and the like.
> 
> He knew Tyson would never accept.  Why would he get in the cage for about $50k or whatever they were paying the tournament winners back then, when he was paid around $22 million to fight McNeeley?  He didn’t have the money to pay Tyson’s “going rate” and he knew there’d be no way Tyson would risk his career for Gracie and Gracie money.
> 
> ...


Oh I figured as much.  And that didn’t help his image in my eyes.


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## Mountie (Mar 7, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> UK



Noted.  Although you may want to tell the website.  See bottom right.

And I'll add an emoticon so you know I'm having fun with this.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2018)

pdg said:


> Careful there Mountie, using 'England' as a generic reference for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is tantamount to me calling you an American
> 
> You can usually get away with 'UK', slightly less usually 'Britain' (unless you're talking to the Irish), but very rarely / almost never England unless specifically referring to the English (which definitely excludes the Scottish, Welsh and Irish).
> 
> Southern Ireland, well I'm woefully underqualified to comment except to state "use none of the above"...


Pommie land.


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## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2018)

Nope , I am English and live in England, you were talking about the history of karate and that would be in the UK because they stopped throwing cabers at each other long enough in Scotland to learn karate as well. Even the Welsh, Cornish and Manx did, Northern Ireland we'll leave out because they were fighting each other for real. The only place they weren't keen on karate was Lancashire, that's because they have their own martial art Ecky Thump. Ecky-Thump


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2018)

Mountie said:


> I actually like that BJJ practitioners went around the world and challenged other styles.  It's how it learned and grew so well while martial arts like karate stagnated.
> 
> Karate masters used to do the same thing, travelling around Asia and learning different martial arts to incorporate into their style.



I have mentioned the culture of the open mat being instrumental in the progression of martial arts.

Not just the mix of cultures. But the mindset that someone on holiday can just roll in and murder the whole club.

And make that a positive experience.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Pommie land.




Be careful, my daughter ( with husband) is coming out shortly for a few months, Sydney this time, she will hunt you down and horsewhip you! ( artificial material whip though as they won't allow wood and other natural substances through the customs, even the horse poo isn't allowed off the plane)
She did enjoy the Melbourne Cup even though their horse didn't run after all the trouble getting there.


----------



## pdg (Mar 7, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The only place they weren't keen on karate was Lancashire, that's because they have their own martial art Ecky Thump



The only art that comes close to Ameri-Do-Te


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## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2018)

pdg said:


> The only art that comes close to Ameri-Do-Te




By eck lad, thou's reet there.


----------



## pdg (Mar 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Pommie land.



Are the refurbishments to prison island coming along alright?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Be careful, my daughter ( with husband) is coming out shortly for a few months, Sydney this time, she will hunt you down and horsewhip you! ( artificial material whip though as they won't allow wood and other natural substances through the customs, even the horse poo isn't allowed off the plane)
> She did enjoy the Melbourne Cup even though their horse didn't run after all the trouble getting there.



Bummer for the Melbourne cup. But while she is over here she could pick up a proper Australian stock whip pretty cheap. And just hunt me down with that.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2018)

pdg said:


> Are the refurbishments to prison island coming along alright?


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


>



I remember going and seeing the The Man From Snowy River in the theaters with my grandpa.....great movie


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Bummer for the Melbourne cup. But while she is over here she could pick up a proper Australian stock whip pretty cheap. And just hunt me down with that.




It was the first time she'd been, as you know her husband was over the year before that for the Cup. Don't know about this year as Emirates aren't going to sponsor it by all accounts.
While they will be working I'm sure they are going to find time for looking around perhaps even make it to the Commonwealth Games which would be cool.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> It was the first time she'd been, as you know her husband was over the year before that for the Cup. Don't know about this year as Emirates aren't going to sponsor it by all accounts.
> While they will be working I'm sure they are going to find time for looking around perhaps even make it to the Commonwealth Games which would be cool.



Competing?


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Competing?




Sadly not, but she does MMA as well ride so who knows what she'll end up doing, if you got dangerous things to do she'll be there.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Sadly not, but she does MMA as well ride so who knows what she'll end up doing, if you got dangerous things to do she'll be there.



Actually I thought some sort of equestrian in the Commonwealth games.

In a MMA vein Robert Whittaker is competing for Australia in wrestling.


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## Buka (Mar 8, 2018)

Ecky-Thump rules, girl!


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## Spinedoc (Apr 4, 2018)

Ameri-Do-Te is the only martial art....


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## sinthetik_mistik (May 13, 2018)

this video is for people who think Karate is weak:


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## _Simon_ (May 13, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> this video is for people who think Karate is weak:


Dem axe kicks


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## Headhunter (May 13, 2018)

Spinedoc said:


> Ameri-Do-Te is the only martial art....


Funny thing is yes I know this is all comedy and a parody etc and I love enter the dojo I'm a big fan of it but the guy who plays master Ken is actually a kenpo black belt so is the guy who plays Todd his assistant. You can actually see in some videos there's a photo of ed Parker on their wall


----------



## marques (May 14, 2018)

Manwithquestions said:


> I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie


Think Lyoto Machida.

Anyway,
- If you do self defence, what are you afraid of?;
- If you do Aikido, you dance with long skirts and throw people trying to hug you;
- If you do MMA, you’re a bloody violent person;
and so on...
- Ah, and wrestlers look gay in their suits and fighting. No one is immune from criticism .

I don’t think karate is exception. And I am careful when telling what do I do as well (except in these forum )


----------



## Buka (May 14, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> this video is for people who think Karate is weak:



I disagree. Not in principle at all, I'm a Karate man and proud of it. But in the specifics of that video. I don't know anything about that competition except for one thing. If you tap that Karateka in the face he's a pussy. I don't mean land a good shot, I mean just touch him. 

And why is it okay to kick to the face but punching is a no no? What up with that? 

Normally, I'd be embarrassed for the guy, but God, I just want to fight him. A Karate man. Ha.


----------



## _Simon_ (May 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> I disagree. Not in principle at all, I'm a Karate man and proud of it. But in the specifics of that video. I don't know anything about that competition except for one thing. If you tap that Karateka in the face he's a pussy. I don't mean land a good shot, I mean just touch him.
> 
> And why is it okay to kick to the face but punching is a no no? What up with that?
> 
> Normally, I'd be embarrassed for the guy, but God, I just want to fight him. A Karate man. Ha.



That's Andy Hug (RIP), absolute legend within Kyokushin and a renounced fighter. Is arguably one of the best kickboxers too, his tournament record for both karate and kickboxing is impressive. Not sure of the context of that particular fight, but yeah was odd his reaction to those, but perhaps were harder than they looked, not sure, especially if used to kickboxing. But not sure of the year.

Ah yeah and the no face punch thing is Kyokushin rules. I think the idea behind it is because multiple head punches are far more dangerous than kicks to the head, as kicks can generally just knock you out easier, whereas constant head punches again and again is potentially more damaging to the brain. And yeah, I guess kicks don't always knock out however hehe.

But yeah Sosai Oyama wanted to keep Kyokushin tournaments bare knuckle fighting, and bare knuckle constantly to the head he took out for obvious reasons.

I'm thankful in my Kyokushin training we didn't do head punches in our regular sparring sessions! XD


----------



## JR 137 (May 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> I disagree. Not in principle at all, I'm a Karate man and proud of it. But in the specifics of that video. I don't know anything about that competition except for one thing. If you tap that Karateka in the face he's a pussy. I don't mean land a good shot, I mean just touch him.
> 
> And why is it okay to kick to the face but punching is a no no? What up with that?
> 
> Normally, I'd be embarrassed for the guy, but God, I just want to fight him. A Karate man. Ha.


Andy Hug could definitely take a punch to the head.  His pro kickboxing record is testament to that.  If it was illegal in that match, he was just trying to get a call IMO.

Kyokushin (actually Oyama dojo before he named it Kyokushin) had head punching.  Too many guys were getting KOed by head punches and losing training time.  Too many guys were breaking their hands.  Too many guys were cutting their hands on opponents’ teeth.  Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama) said that in an interview.  He also stated they started throwing uppercuts at the chin and wrapping their hands in washcloths so the wouldn’t get cut by someone’s teeth 

Oyama eliminated head punches but kept head kicks.  The rationale was kicking the head took more skill, and it was easier to block head kicks than punches.  KOing with a head punch was too easy; KOing with a head kick was significantly harder.  Combine that with the injury rate and shortness of fights from head punching, and Oyama banned head punches.

I’m not saying any nor all of that is 100% logical; I’m just stating what I’ve read and heard.

And @Buka  a karate man bruise on the inside, but these guys wouldn’t know that because they’re a bunch of Barry White lookin’ MFers.


----------



## minn8325 (Feb 6, 2021)

Out of the gate I got no issues with Karate,

this what the public sees,  most class are kata and pulling punches and kicks.  The majority(80% not all) karate practitioners I’ve met can’t fight have never been in a fight and don’t fight.

so they get made fun of a lot buy anyone who fights because it mostly just yelling and fight choreography. 

that being said their are some who do karate that will  literally knock the **** out of you.  They are few and far between.


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2021)

minn8325 said:


> Out of the gate I got no issues with Karate,
> 
> this what the public sees,  most class are kata and pulling punches and kicks.  The majority(80% not all) karate practitioners I’ve met can’t fight have never been in a fight and don’t fight.
> 
> ...



And then there's those who generalise because they don't know any better....yes I'm looking at you 

And I'm stopping my fingers trying to use the keyboard to correct your spelling and grammar. Quite magnanimous of me actually because I know many karateka who can KO easily.


----------



## minn8325 (Feb 9, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> And then there's those who generalise because they don't know any better....yes I'm looking at you
> 
> And I'm stopping my fingers trying to use the keyboard to correct your spelling and grammar. Quite magnanimous of me actually because I know many karateka who can KO easily.



yeah, I agree especially about my spelling.  I was just commenting on why the general disrespect across the board.  One of the worst *** beatings I ever took in my life was in the 7th grade after taking karate 2 days a week for 2 years...ends up the other side wasn’t doing kata’s.

for the record Karate is a legit combat system if your taught to fight.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 10, 2021)

minn8325 said:


> yeah, I agree especially about my spelling.  I was just commenting on why the general disrespect across the board.  One of the worst *** beatings I ever took in my life was in the 7th grade after taking karate 2 days a week for 2 years...ends up the other side wasn’t doing kata’s.
> 
> for the record Karate is a legit combat system if your taught to fight.



I've been a Karateka for over forty years now, I do kata and I can fight, many of us can.
Blaming kata and karate as a whole for your inability to fight instead of the instructor who obviously didn't teach you is unjust.
I know a good many karateka who can and do fight full contact.

You can't say 'for the record' when you are not a well known and respected expect in the field.


----------



## minn8325 (Feb 10, 2021)

Your right I should have known this thread is a trap.

So my final Response is “I’m not sure what this thread is about Karate is one of the more respected martial arts out there.  I’ve never heard anyone bag on it.  Most all schools teach some of the most vicious hand to hand fight skills I’ve ever seen.”


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 10, 2021)

minn8325 said:


> Your right I should have known this thread is a trap.
> 
> So my final Response is “I’m not sure what this thread is about Karate is one of the more respected martial arts out there.  I’ve never heard anyone bag on it.  Most all schools teach some of the most vicious hand to hand fight skills I’ve ever seen.”


I don’t believe this thread is a trap, but I do believe it is based on some false premises.  

If people make blanket statements about a martial method, there will be people who dispute those statements.  This thread is based on blanket statements.


----------



## minn8325 (Feb 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t believe this thread is a trap, but I do believe it is based on some false premises.
> 
> If people make blanket statements about a martial method, there will be people who dispute those statements.  This thread is based on blanket statements.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 10, 2021)

minn8325 said:


>


What are you trying to tell me with this?


----------



## Hakkan Mordrake (Feb 13, 2021)

Point people to things like Karate combat, Kudo, Uechi, old school Shotokan etc.

The main thing that everyone says with karate is "they don't even punch the face bro, HuEhUeHuEh."

Which makes the next logical course of action showing them karate where people are getting punched in the face.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2021)

I'm not sure the general public actually see that much karate, not much of other martial arts either. Boxing is still the most well known one, the furore over MMA has mostly died down and it's still a niche sport. 

There's always ill informed comments about all sports and activities that humans like to amuse themselves with. Frankly though if you are happy with what you do whether it's biathlon, chess, stamp collecting, bell ringing, Tai Chi, karate or MMA why should we care what 'outsiders' think? Especially people from other countries.


----------



## jobo (Feb 14, 2021)

Hakkan Mordrake said:


> Point people to things like Karate combat, Kudo, Uechi, old school Shotokan etc.
> 
> The main thing that everyone says with karate is "they don't even punch the face bro, HuEhUeHuEh."
> 
> Which makes the next logical course of action showing them karate where people are getting punched in the face.


im with tez, i think katate  a high public  profile, very nearly everyone has some idea of what it is, but beyond that are competly indifferent and know nothing of styles and who punches in the face and who doesnt .

disrespect for a ma is largely  done by other martial artists , the general public dont actually care much either way.


----------



## Ivan (Feb 14, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> It's the fact that your judging the world by a small group of immature boys.  This is what teenage guys do they mock and ridicule everything they themselves don't do.


As another teenage boy I wholeheartedly approve this message


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 20, 2021)

minn8325 said:


> The majority(80% not all) karate practitioners I’ve met can’t fight have never been in a fight and don’t fight.





Tez3 said:


> I've been a Karateka for over forty years now, I do kata and I can fight, many of us can.



I think this is key.  Someone who has experience fighting while untrained, but then subsequently takes up karate will actually learn things to add to their existing repertoire.

I've never met anyone whose first ever real fight took place as adult.  So how would a karate black belt who has never been in a real fight fare against an experienced untrained fighter?  I know where I'd be placing my bet.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 20, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> So how would a karate black belt who has never been in a real fight fare against an experienced untrained fighter?  I know where I'd be placing my bet.


How can an untrained fighter be experienced?

- Well trained defeat fast.
- Fast defeat slow.
- Slow defeat untrained.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 20, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How can an untrained fighter be experienced?



By fighting without being trained in a martial art.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 20, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> By fighting without being trained in a martial art.


A untrained person may fight the same way 10 years later as he fought 10 years ago. He may correct some of his mistakes through fighting. But he will never be able to develop new fighting skill without proper MA instruction.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 20, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A untrained person may fight the same way 10 years later as he fought 10 years ago. He may correct some of his mistakes through fighting. But he will never be able to develop new fighting skill without proper MA instruction.



Maybe, maybe not.  But that's all beside the point.

On the flip side of the coin, a trained martial artist with no real fighting experience could be analogous to someone who has been given a recipe but doesn't know how to cook.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 20, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A untrained person may fight the same way 10 years later as he fought 10 years ago. He may correct some of his mistakes through fighting. But he will never be able to develop new fighting skill without proper MA instruction.


We see this in all walks of life.  In general formal training is better than train on your own.    Training on your own often creates tunnel vision where the person can only s"His Way."  Formal training means the person will learn "Many ways"

My training on fighting is good.  But my training on fighting + Kung Fu Wang Formal training would be greater than my training alone.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 20, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> a trained martial artist with no real fighting experience could be analogous to someone who has been given a recipe but doesn't know how to cook.


You have issue with your definition of "trained martial artist". MA training require:

1. partner drill to develop technique.
2. solo drill to polish technique.
3. equipment/weight training to enhance technique.
4. sparring/wrestling to test technique.

If 4 is missing, that person is not "trained".

A trained martial artist with no real fighting experience can only be called a "dancer". You can't expect too much out of a dancer.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 20, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have issue with your definition of "trained martial artist". MA training require:



Nope



> 1. partner drill to develop technique.
> 2. solo drill to polish technique.
> 3. equipment/weight training to enhance technique.
> 4. sparring/wrestling to test technique.
> ...



I never spoke of a trained martial artist who lacked sparring experience.  I'm speaking of ones who lack real fighting experience.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 20, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm speaking of ones who lack real fighting experience.


Do you expect an "experienced untrained fighter" to obtain his experience through street fight? How often can someone have street fight experience?

Do those "experienced untrained fighter" truly exist in the real world? I agree that no MA experience can match against killing experience.

A: How many people have you killed so far?
B: I have only killed 78 guys. If I work hard enough, that number may reach to 100 at the end of this year.
A: I have already killed over 1000 guys so far. You still have a long way to go.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you expect an "experienced untrained fighter" to obtain his experience through street fight? How often can someone have street fight experience?
> 
> Do those "experienced untrained fighter" truly exist in the real world? I agree that no MA experience can match against killing experience.
> 
> ...



Okay, now you're just trying to troll instead of having a meaningful discussion. But whatever.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Okay, now you're just trying to troll instead of having a meaningful discussion. But whatever.


My simple question is does the "experienced untrained fighter" truly exist on this planet? I have not met one yet. Have you?

If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, along with your MA training, you can be a good fighter after 6 years. 

How can you accumulate that many street fight experience without being hurt, or being thrown into jail?


----------



## jobo (Apr 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My simple question is does the "experienced untrained fighter" truly exist on this planet? I have not met one yet. Have you?
> 
> If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, along with your MA training, you can be a good fighter after 6 years.
> 
> How can you accumulate that many street fight experience without being hurt, or being thrown into jail?


video games


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, along with your MA training, you can be a good fighter after 6 years.



LOL, no.  Only someone who lacks real fighting experience would say this.  A real fight never goes the way a sparring session does.

If your kwoon has you guys donning MMA gloves and getting into the cage, then I'll give you that.  Anything short of that isn't gonna cut the mustard.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> LOL, no.  Only someone who lacks real fighting experience would say this.  A real fight never goes the way a sparring session does.
> 
> If your kwoon has you guys donning MMA gloves and getting into the cage, then I'll give you that.  Anything short of that isn't gonna cut the mustard.


WHy do you automatically assume that they don't spar like that?


----------



## Cynik75 (Apr 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My simple question is does the "experienced untrained fighter" truly exist on this planet? I have not met one yet. Have you?


Football (soccer) hooligans? Antifa members? Proud boys? Violent subcultures( like skinheads, mods, punks)? Biker gang members? Kimbo Slice from backyards fight times? Ordinary assholes who like to fight when drunk? Jesus, even "west side story" is about street violence.
I was antifa guy (SHARP) skinhead when I was 16-21. More than 50 fights, scuffles, scrimmages from 1:1 to 100:100. Empty handed or with both sides armed with bats, knives, chains, knuckle dusters etc. Really a lot of experience without any martial arts training. 
Experience does not make anybody skilled fighter. Experience makes people calm, makes people good tactician, helps people no to make stupid things, removes tunel vision but it is not the best way to learn new skills. 



Kung Fu Wang said:


> How can you accumulate that many street fight experience without being hurt, or being thrown into jail?


 With a lot of luck


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> WHy do you automatically assume that they don't spar like that?



Because that wouldn't be sparring.  It would be an actual match.


----------



## jobo (Apr 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Because that wouldn't be sparring.  It would be an actual match.


you've clearly havent got much sparing exsperiance


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Football (soccer) hooligans? Antifa members? Proud boys? Violent subcultures( like skinheads, mods, punks)? Biker gang members? Kimbo Slice from backyards fight times? Ordinary assholes who like to fight when drunk? Jesus, even "west side story" is about street violence.



^^^This.  People can't possibly be so sheltered that they actually believe fights aren't happening out there.  Someone asking these questions must be trolling, which is why I didn't answer.


----------



## jobo (Apr 21, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Football (soccer) hooligans? Antifa members? Proud boys? Violent subcultures( like skinheads, mods, punks)? Biker gang members? Kimbo Slice from backyards fight times? Ordinary assholes who like to fight when drunk? Jesus, even "west side story" is about street violence.
> I was antifa guy (SHARP) skinhead when I was 16-21. More than 50 fights, scuffles, scrimmages from 1:1 to 100:100. Empty handed or with both sides armed with bats, knives, chains, knuckle dusters etc. Really a lot of experience without any martial arts training.
> Experience does not make anybody skilled fighter. Experience makes people calm, makes people good tactician, helps people no to make stupid things, removes tunel vision but it is not the best way to learn new skills.
> 
> With a lot of luck


if fighting is a skill, rather than intuative which I rather think it is, then practice will have the effect of increasing that skill level,  tactic and calmness are part of that skill set, not distinct from it


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

jobo said:


> you've clearly havent got much sparing exsperiance



Yeah, please show me a place that has sparring sessions where people are getting their noses broken by their opponents on a regular basis.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> LOL, no.  Only someone who lacks real fighting experience would say this.  A real fight never goes the way a sparring session does.
> 
> If your kwoon has you guys donning MMA gloves and getting into the cage, then I'll give you that.  Anything short of that isn't gonna cut the mustard.


MMA is not popular in Taiwan. But Sanda/Sanshou is popular there. This is my guys did in Taiwan (2006).


----------



## jobo (Apr 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yeah, please show me a sparring session where people are getting their noses broken and their teeth knocked out by their opponents on purpose.


teeth usually survived due to gum shields,  but people getting knock out,knocked over or otherwise hurt are not uncommon in many arts, hell I've knocked a few over myself.

the difference between sparing and a contest is largly a decision  for the participants to make


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> MMA is not popular in Taiwan. But Sanda/Sanshou is popular there. This is my guys did in Taiwan (2006).



Where's their sparring gear?  Looks like an actual match to me.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

jobo said:


> teeth usually survived due to gum shields,  but people getting knock out,knocked over or otherwise hurt are not uncommon in many arts, hell I've knocked a few over myself.
> 
> the difference between sparing and a contest is largly a decision  for the participants to make



Yeah, I edited out the teeth thing in my previous comment as I was typing faster than I was thinking.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Where's their sparring gear?  Looks like an actual match to me.


do you need gear to spar, ? that's an assumption that meets your opinion that sparing is nothing like fighting as they wear gear and if they are not wearing gear they are not sparring,

circular logic


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> do you need gear to spar, ? that's an assumption that meets your opinion that sparing is nothing like fighting as they wear gear and if they are not wearing gear they are not sparring,
> 
> circular logic



From Dictionary.com:



> *spar* [spahr ]
> _verb (used without object),_ *sparred, spar·ring.*
> 1 (of boxers) to make the motions of attack and defense with the arms and fists, especially as a part of training.
> 2 to box, especially with light blows.
> ...



The people in those videos were either legit trying to KO each other at worst, or knowingly proceeding in such a way that could lead to a KO at best.  Maybe they don't need sparring gear, but what they were doing is not consistent with the definition of sparring.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> From Dictionary.com:
> 
> 
> 
> The people in those videos were either legit trying to KO each other at worst, or knowingly proceeding in such a way that could lead to a KO at best.  Maybe they don't need sparring gear, but what they were doing is not consistent with the definition of sparring.


yes but that's what sparing can be, it only you that wants to put a play fight defintion on it as it fits your view

in championship boxing for instance sparring is what they do to prepare for a contest,  they arnt gently tapping each other, it would be pointless in the extreme if they were

the only difference between sparring and the contest is sparring doesnt get them a belt.

when I spar with a couple of lads at the dojo, the rules are simple ,move your head or get knocked over


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> the only difference between sparring and the contest is sparring doesnt get them a belt.



So you're saying that all non-title matches are sparring?  Two top-ranked contenders fighting in a match that counts toward their fighting record is considered "sparring?"


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> So you're saying that all non-title matches are sparring?  Two top-ranked contenders fighting in a match that counts toward their fighting record is considered "sparring?"


that's really not what I said, I'm not at all sure how you came to that interpretation,  but if your going to play silly buggers and delibratly miss understand me, il be succinct and clear and do the same back  as you clearly dont want an open exchange of ideas

sparring has the intensity that is agreed  by the participants or the club, thats the only limit

both of those,  not withstanding, people who are training for fights at a level where they can afford to hire top fighters to spar with them are sparring at the same intensity as they exspect the fight to have, that's why they pay them a lot of money to do so

for the rest of us it not that easy to find a volunteer who will let you try and knock them out well not in tma anyway


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> that's really not what I said, I'm not at all sure how you came to that interpretation,  but if your going to play silly buggers and delibratly miss understand me, il be succinct and clear and do the same back  as you clearly dont want an open exchange of ideas



I'm not trying to misunderstand you.  You said that the distinguishing factor is whether or not a belt is on the line.  I was giving you a chance to revise what you said.

When I hear "sparring," in the case of TMA, I'm thinking of kumite at the dojo or equivalent in other TMA.  So when I say that training alone (including sparring) with no real fighting experience will do one very little good against an experienced untrained fighter, that's what I'm talking about.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm not trying to misunderstand you.  You said that the distinguishing factor is whether or not a belt is on the line.  I was giving you a chance to revise what you said.
> 
> When I hear "sparring," in the case of TMA, I'm thinking of kumite at the dojo or equivalent in other TMA.  So when I say that training alone (including sparring) with no real fighting experience will do one very little good against an experienced untrained fighter, that's what I'm talking about.


I said the distinguishing factor in a belt fight between sparring and contest is the belt, that clear I mentioned no other level of contests

you seem to be as bad as the mma fan boys at having an extremly norrow view of what tma can be like,

I've been at it on and off for 45 years and I've only seen a tiny fraction  of all the tma,schools in the world, it really impossible to say what goes on there,, the only ones I've stuck around are the ones who take fighting seriously,  as that my bag,

what you imagine when you hear sparring,  in no way effects the reality of what sparring is done.

it has changed from the 70s and 80s but that societal change rather than any systematic issue with tma, and mma has channelled off a lot of the hard men, we have about 30 members and only two of them will let me try and knock them out, three of us are getting more out of the class than the other 27, but that's their choice


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> I said the distinguishing factor in a belt fight between sparring and contest is the belt, that clear I mentioned no other level of contests



When you just say the belt and leave it at that, the implication is that the level of contest doesn't matter.



> you seem to be as bad as the mma fan boys at having an extremly norrow view of what tma can be like



I'm not downing TMA, nor am I uplifting MMA at the expense of TMA.  My point from the beginning is that training in TMA is far more valuable to someone with real experience than to someone with none.  That should be common sense.

I'm not even talking about MMA in the first place.  I merely mentioned the gloves and the cage.

The guy with experience who has trained in TMA would be the guy that I'd put against in a one-on-one fight with an outlaw biker.  But my money say the guy who's worn the red or blue pads at the dojo for ten years and has never had to lay a hand on anyone outside of the dojo in his life would get eaten alive by that same outlaw biker.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> When you just say the belt and leave it at that, the implication is that the level of contest doesn't matter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this is drivel mate, have you ever fought one on one with an outlaw biker, I have more than once when I was an out law biker and before, which is how I was asked to join, they are really not that tough on there own

 your building strawman opponents,  another favourite of the mma boys.

let's be clear, the question is can someone be trained to be a good fighter in a club having little to non real world fights,  yes of course they can

you can tell the lots of  real world fight guys in the pub, all flat noses and brain damage, I'm scared of the blokes that did that to them, not them


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> this is drivel mate, have you ever fought one on one with an outlaw biker, I have more than once when I was an out law biker and before, which is how I was asked to join, they are really not that tough on there own



From the sound of it, you fought outlaw bikers as someone with both training and experience.



> your building strawman opponents,  another favourite of the mma boys.



Nope, I'm quoting you.  You're the one painting me as an MMA fanboy.  I don't even watch MMA.



> let's be clear, the question is can someone be trained to be a good fighter in a club having little to non real world fights,  yes of course they can



I told you, I don't know a single person whose first ever real fight took place as an adult, much less after training in TMA for 5 to 10 years.  Do you?

If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that.



> you can tell the lots of  real world fight guys in the pub, all flat noses and brain damage, I'm scared of the blokes that did that to them, not them



Yeah, but you have no idea what those guys at the pub did to the guys that flattened their noses.  That's what you need to think about.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> From the sound of it, you fought outlaw bikers as someone with both training and experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's a nonsensical argument, childhood fights dont count as they are children, any exsperiance you have isnt going to help against a grown man of 250lbs

there also a differance between being in fightsthat are reasonably fair contests and being in fights unwillingly and being beaten up a lot, they really doesnt help at all

so no few people have got to adult hood with out a fight of some type, but that doesnt support your point at all, as the tma peole will also have had real world exsperiance of violence, childhood can be very violent


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> it's a nonsensical argument, childhood fights dont count as they are children, any exsperiance you have isnt going to help against a grown man of 250lbs



What are you classifying as "childhood?"  Anyone below the age of 18 (isn't it 16 in the UK)?  I have fought and beaten a man in his 30's when I was 14 years old, and I know others who have done the same as young as 12.  There was even a video of Katt Williams getting beaten up by a 12 year old that went viral a few years ago.  Are you counting high school students as "children?"  Because people are usually still in that high school mentality for the first few years after graduating.  Fights happen on college campuses between people who are adults by any definition.



> there also a differance between being in fightsthat are reasonably fair contests and being in fights unwillingly and being beaten up a lot, they really doesnt help at all



As a I told Kung Fu Wang, if by "sparring," he means what's in the videos he posted, then yeah, I'll put them against an experienced untrained fighter.  But I won't do the same for someone who has only done sparring by the dictionary definition of it, which describes the typical kumite at a karate dojo or equivalent elsewhere.



> so no few people have got to adult hood with out a fight of some type, but that doesnt support your point at all, as the* tma peole will also have had real world exsperiance of violence*, childhood can be very violent



That's a very general statement.  Do all TMA'ists have real fighting experience?  No.  Do most?  I don't know.  Do some?  Without a doubt.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> What are you classifying as "childhood?"  Anyone below the age of 18 (isn't it 16 in the UK)?  I have fought and beaten a man in his 30's when I was 14 years old, and I know others who have done the same as young as 12.  There was even a video of Katt Williams getting beaten up by a 12 year old that went viral a few years ago.  Are you counting high school students as "children?"  Because people are usually still in that high school mentality for the first few years after graduating.  Fights happen on college campuses between people who are adults by any definition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your arguing against your s4lf now, you said that all children have been in fights,as ma were once children,  that includes them, I dont know if it's most or all, I was following your lead, but ok most children, I still dont know that that is true, do you have any evevidence? if so that then means most ma have fight exsperiance, that still doesnt support your point

which means your making up evidence that prooves you wrong,  which is both sad and unfortunate


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> your arguing against your s4lf now,



Okay, let's see.



> you said that all children have been in fights,



No I didn't.  This is what I said: _"If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that."_



> as ma were once children,  that includes them, I dont know if it's most or all, I was following your lead, but ok most children,  that then means most ma have fight exsperiance



I never said that "most" people have fought when they were children either.  If I did, please quote me.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Okay, let's see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no you said you knew of no one who had reached adulthood with out being a first fight

you said it, you find it, I'm not your keeper


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> no you said you knew of no one who had reached adulthood with out being a first fight



No, this is what I said: _"I told you, I don't know a single person whose first ever real fight took place as an adult..."
_
Let me rephrase that, since you're having trouble understanding:  someone who has only fought as an adult, but never as a child.  I don't know any such people.  Is that better?



> you said it, you find it, I'm not your keeper



That's not how it works.  If you're going to accuse me of something, then it's your responsibility to prove it.  Don't want the responsibility?  Then don't make the accusation.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> No, this is what I said: _"I told you, I don't know a single person whose first ever real fight took place as an adult..."
> _
> Let me rephrase that, since you're having trouble understanding:  someone who has only fought as an adult, but never as a child.  I don't know any such people.  Is that better?
> 
> ...


I havent accused you of anything, so far,  though I am tempted to suggest your a bit challenged
as youve now quoted the quote that contradicts your subsequent logic and cant see I the contradiction

oh well, horse to water and all that

it's a lovely sunny evening here and I'm on a river bank in the middle of nowhere, so il leave you to ponder the proposition and see if Dawns on you,


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 22, 2021)

jobo said:


> I havent accused you of anything, so far,  though I am tempted to suggest your a bit challenged
> as youve now quoted the quote that contradicts your subsequent logic and cant see I the contradiction
> 
> oh well, horse to water and all that



Jesus H. Christ, man...


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> LOL, no.  Only someone who lacks real fighting experience would say this.  A real fight never goes the way a sparring session does.
> 
> If your kwoon has you guys donning MMA gloves and getting into the cage, then I'll give you that.  Anything short of that isn't gonna cut the mustard.




You haven't seen our sparring sessions. 
When our students fight it goes to plan always because the plan is to be prepared for everything and anything.

Our students fight in the cage and on the mats, they fight quite often when they're out on a night and their  'day' job means they are trained to be ready to fight at any time.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Football (soccer) hooligans? Antifa members? Proud boys? Violent subcultures( like skinheads, mods, punks)? Biker gang members? Kimbo Slice from backyards fight times? Ordinary assholes who like to fight when drunk? Jesus, even "west side story" is about street violence.
> I was antifa guy (SHARP) skinhead when I was 16-21. More than 50 fights, scuffles, scrimmages from 1:1 to 100:100. Empty handed or with both sides armed with bats, knives, chains, knuckle dusters etc. Really a lot of experience without any martial arts training.
> Experience does not make anybody skilled fighter. Experience makes people calm, makes people good tactician, helps people no to make stupid things, removes tunel vision but it is not the best way to learn new skills.
> 
> With a lot of luck




Without bringing politics into this you haven't the slightest idea what Antifa is so please don't bring your own definitions into this.


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> LOL, no.  Only someone who lacks real fighting experience would say this.  A real fight never goes the way a sparring session does.
> 
> If your kwoon has you guys donning MMA gloves and getting into the cage, then I'll give you that.  Anything short of that isn't gonna cut the mustard.


I would agree, if your experience is strictly in a gym sparring and you have no real world experience (ring experience, imo is not real world experience)...it is very hard for me to respect your opinion or even take your advice seriously.


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 22, 2021)

As for stopping the disrespectful attitude towards Karate. I have found that a majority of people who do, have no idea concerning what Karate is..


----------



## Cynik75 (Apr 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Without bringing politics into this you haven't the slightest idea what Antifa is so please don't bring your own definitions into this.


Sorry for OT but: "Antifa" is so wide term that many different social phenomenons and groups fit into this. And I am pretty sure I know way better than you what and who was Antifa 25-30 years ago and what and who is now in central Europe.


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 22, 2021)

Interesting enough, the MA did not teach me how to fight, it taught me how to think in a fight. You do not need training to be a successful fighter, experience will definitely give you that. But, it does help to organize your fighting method.


----------



## Buka (Apr 23, 2021)

The real question is why is there so much disrespect for each other on this forum and what can we do to stop it?

If some of you ever trained in a real dojo and had the attitudes and bad manners you display here you would get your ash handed to you in a broken lunch pail.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Apr 23, 2021)

Buka said:


> The real question is why is there so much disrespect for each other on this forum and what can we do to stop it?
> 
> If some of you ever trained in a real dojo and had the attitudes and bad manners you display here you would get your ash handed to you in a broken lunch pail.


 
So much back and forth on the efficacy of what this art or that art teaches, TMA vs MMA in a fight, and so on.  One thing TMA does usually teach is a code of conduct.  Respect, humility, and the way one carries oneself.  This is inherent in the training at a good TMA dojo. 

While I have been somewhat critical of the evolution of karate this past century, one good thing to come out of this evolution IMO has been the development of the "way," the "do" in karate-do.  Self-discipline and respect are not only expected in a "real dojo," but as Buka elegantly points out, strongly enforced.  This shift from karate-"jitsu" to karate-do did little, if anything, to directly improve fighting ability.  But it has the potential to improve something perhaps more important - one's self and the community at large. 

Even before this shift, Matsumura Sokon (b.1809) embodied this concept in his "Seven Virtues of _Bu_" (warrior arts.) Trained in combat from horseback, an expert with the sword and staff, and a master of empty hand combat, he served three Okinawan kings as a security agent and bodyguard.  Real life-death combat was his profession!  Yet, he recognized that MA should be more than just fighting.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Where's their sparring gear?  Looks like an actual match to me.


Wait, you think sparring can only happen with sparring gear? And matches can only happen without it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> From Dictionary.com:
> 
> 
> 
> The people in those videos were either legit trying to KO each other at worst, or knowingly proceeding in such a way that could lead to a KO at best.  Maybe they don't need sparring gear, but what they were doing is not consistent with the definition of sparring.


Dictionaries are meant to report usage, not control it. Most folks around here understand the difference between heavy and light sparring.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> yes but that's what sparing can be, it only you that wants to put a play fight defintion on it as it fits your view
> 
> in championship boxing for instance sparring is what they do to prepare for a contest,  they arnt gently tapping each other, it would be pointless in the extreme if they were
> 
> ...


You must really be enjoying the irony of someone trying to force upon you a definition they prefer, rather than working with a generally acceptable usage.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 24, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Dictionaries are meant to report usage, not control it. Most folks around here understand the difference between heavy and light sparring.



I'm past arguing what was meant by the word.  In fact, I stated that if they call what was in those videos "sparring," then they should fare decently against one who is experienced but untrained.

But the same cannot be said of those who lack experience and only spar according to the dictionary definition of it.

Capisci?


----------



## jobo (Apr 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm past arguing what was meant by the word.  In fact, I stated that if they call what was in those videos "sparring," then they should fare decently against one who is experienced but untrained.
> 
> But the same cannot be said of those who lack experience and only spar according to the dictionary definition of it.
> 
> Capisci?


you do know that dictionaries seldom agree


----------



## jobo (Apr 24, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You must really be enjoying the irony of someone trying to force upon you a definition they prefer, rather than working with a generally acceptable usage.


no he is working by the general ( public) usage, im requiring a more accurate ma specific definition coz well we are ma discussing ma and it seems appropriate to do so

i don't care what definition people use as long as i cant hear or see, I'm very considerate like that


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> you do know that dictionaries seldom agree



I said I'm past that.


----------



## jobo (Apr 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I said I'm past that.


and your telling me like i should care ?


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 24, 2021)

jobo said:


> and your telling me like i should care ?



I'm clearly dealing with someone who lacks social skills.  But I learned that days ago.


----------



## jobo (Apr 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm clearly dealing with someone who lacks social skills.  But I learned that days ago.


well your dealing with someone who thinks your opinion is of no importance, when i am deploying my social skill i pretend it is,,,,, though admittedly not very well usually, but it is hard to fake when someone is talking nonsense


----------



## Flying Crane (Apr 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I told you, I don't know a single person whose first ever real fight took place as an adult, much less after training in TMA for 5 to 10 years.  Do you?


Oh well, allow me to introduce myself.  Since I’ve just had my 50th birthday I do consider myself an adult, and I’ve been training in traditional martial arts since 1984, so that’s a fair bit longer than the 5-10 years that you reference.  I’m actually still eagerly anticipating my first real fight.  Wondering how it will turn out.  I’ve simply found it rather easy to get through life without getting into fights.  Somehow the bad guys just don’t seem to be hiding behind every bush, waiting to steal my lunch money.  


> If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that.


Or it just really isn’t necessary.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Sorry for OT but: "Antifa" is so wide term that many different social phenomenons and groups fit into this. And I am pretty sure I know way better than you what and who was Antifa 25-30 years ago and what and who is now in central Europe.



I'm pretty sure you don't actually know better than I.
I'm in my late 60s, my mother was Dutch, the only survivor of her family from the camps, I'm British, ex military specialising in terrorism and terrorist groups, something that continued in my civilian job with the Ministry of Defence, I lived in what was West Germany 30 years ago and still have many contacts and colleagues across Europe and the Middle East. 'Antifa' was not a thing 25-30 years ago.


----------



## Anarax (Apr 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> This is what I said: _"If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that."_


Could you please provide examples of "even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them" and your definition of a "real fight"?


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 24, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Could you please provide examples of "even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them" and your definition of a "real fight"?



No


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> No


As expected.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

You really can't stop it. Karate is simply one of those martial arts that attempt to maintain tradition in a world that pushes for modernity and fact finding. Just like the majority of people around the world are beginning to disfavor religion and adopt a secular view of their world, people are also beginning to lose favor towards traditional martial arts that rely more on mysticism and legends than applicability.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You really can't stop it. Karate is simply one of those martial arts that attempt to maintain tradition in a world that pushes for modernity and fact finding. Just like the majority of people around the world are beginning to disfavor religion and adopt a secular view of their world, people are also beginning to lose favor towards traditional martial arts that rely more on mysticism and legends than applicability.



I think there are several factors that took place over time:

1. For a time, the word "karate" was synonymous with almost every Far East Asian martial art.  Seems like this would increase people's perception of karate as "generic" over time. 

2.  I remember Tae Kwon Do beginning to make a name for itself and take off in the early 90's.  In my observation, it eventually surpassed karate in popularity, and karate was left behind.

3.  If we set aside the classic movies, like the Karate Kid series and Bloodsport, karate movies from the 80's and early 90's just didn't age very well.  The Karate Kid series and Bloodsport may not even exceptions.  What keeps these movies enjoyable might be the 80's pop culture thing in the case of the former, and the "so bad it's good" factor in the case of the latter.  The decline in popularity of these movies likely meant that there was less karate in the media to pique the interests of young people who may have otherwise been interested.

I don't point the finger at MMA.  It was kept behind a paywall in its early years (pay-per-view), so most of us couldn't watch it.  I think most people probably assumed that it was all karate and kung fu.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I think there are several factors that took place over time:
> 
> 1. For a time, the word "karate" was synonymous with almost every Far East Asian martial art.  Seems like this would increase people's perception of karate as "generic" over time.
> 
> ...



Nah, point the finger at MMA. While people couldn't actually view the fights themselves, the results were still broadcasted far and wide. MMA is what changed the landscape of martial arts and put traditional martial arts on a backpedal where they have to constantly be judged against its standard. Karate was a victim of that sea change.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You really can't stop it. Karate is simply one of those martial arts that attempt to maintain tradition in a world that pushes for modernity and fact finding. Just like the majority of people around the world are beginning to disfavor religion and adopt a secular view of their world, people are also beginning to lose favor towards traditional martial arts that rely more on mysticism and legends than applicability.


unless you have actual figures to contradict the majority of people in the world appear to be religious,  even in places that have outlawed religion


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> unless you have actual figures to contradict the majority of people in the world appear to be religious,  even in places that have outlawed religion



I never said the majority wasn't religious. I'm saying that the number of religious people in the world is shrinking, and eventually they will be a minority.


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Nah, point the finger at MMA. While people couldn't actually view the fights themselves, the results were still broadcasted far and wide. MMA is what changed the landscape of martial arts and put traditional martial arts on a backpedal where they have to constantly be judged against its standard. Karate was a victim of that sea change.


I would disagree, MMA to me is simply entertainment, well I should say the UFC. MMA is really nothing new in the martial art world. Folks have been mixing arts long before the UFC..not everyone but some.

Now I think personally, MMA is a training method, not an Art so to speak. And, as always, the training and it's results, are dependent upon the person training. And, is just a current popular method.

I should also state that the UFC, is more like the WWE, these days, it's entertainment.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I never said the majority wasn't religious. I'm saying that the number of religious people in the world is shrinking, and eventually they will be a minority.


you appeared to say something resembling that.

but as most of the major area of population growth also seem to be very religious places, I'm still asking for some data that shows the % of those who ascribe to a religion is shrinking .

a quick google later, it seem christianity is shrinking, Islam is growing, Hinduism is stable
and atheists make up only 2% of the worlds population and is also stable,  so not shrinking it seems


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I would disagree, MMA to me is simply entertainment, well I should say the UFC. MMA is really nothing new in the martial art world. Folks have been mixing arts long before the UFC..not everyone but some.
> 
> Now I think personally, MMA is a training method, not an Art so to speak. And, as always, the training and it's results, are dependent upon the person training. And, is just a current popular method.
> 
> I should also state that the UFC, is more like the WWE, these days, it's entertainment.



It goes a bit beyond entertainment, because you have MMA exponents challenging TMA exponents and vice versa, and those challenges tend to go in the MMA exponent’s favor. This gives the perception that MMA (and Bjj) is a more effective style to learn.

The most recent example of this is the amateur MMA fighter in China who is actively challenging Kung Fu grandmasters and beating them rather easily. This is partially causing a decline of Kung Fu in China, and a pretty rapid rise in MMA and Bjj. It’s also causing people to question the efficacy of their native arts.

MMA and Bjj is also rapidly growing in Korea and Japan as well.


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> It goes a bit beyond entertainment, because you have MMA exponents challenging TMA exponents and vice versa, and those challenges tend to go in the MMA exponent’s favor. This gives the perception that MMA (and Bjj) is a more effective style to learn.
> 
> The most recent example of this is the amateur MMA fighter in China who is actively challenging Kung Fu grandmasters and beating them rather easily. This is partially causing a decline of Kung Fu in China, and a pretty rapid rise in MMA and Bjj. It’s also causing people to question the efficacy of their native arts.
> 
> MMA and Bjj is also rapidly growing in Korea and Japan as well.


Well, MMA is a training method, not a style imo. As for BJJ, I would say wrestling is the superior grappling art.

Your example, is for the chinese kung fu master, is old and really, he just fought a person with full contact using punches and kicks (pretty common in all arts) I don't think the Kung Fu master ever really fought a day in his life.

The UFC calls themselves a entertainment industry, not a sport industry. You'd need to take that up with them.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> It goes a bit beyond entertainment, because you have MMA exponents challenging TMA exponents and vice versa, and those challenges tend to go in the MMA exponent’s favor. This gives the perception that MMA (and Bjj) is a more effective style to learn.
> 
> The most recent example of this is the amateur MMA fighter in China who is actively challenging Kung Fu grandmasters and beating them rather easily. This is partially causing a decline of Kung Fu in China, and a pretty rapid rise in MMA and Bjj. It’s also causing people to question the efficacy of their native arts.
> 
> MMA and Bjj is also rapidly growing in Korea and Japan as well.


I've just googled again,  try it, it seems the largest and biggest growth ma in china, is tkd, thos is largly to do with the light contact points sparring and smart uniforms, not at all driven by views on its efficiency, people who want to get beaten up in actual fights remains a small % even in china


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> I've just googled again,  try it, it seems the largest and biggest growth ma in china, is tkd, thos is largly to do with the light contact points sparring and smart uniforms, not at all driven by views on its efficiency, people who want to get beaten up in actual fights remains a small % even in china



And you should try reading sometime. Nowhere in that reply did I say that MMA has the largest population or having the biggest growth.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Well, MMA is a training method, not a style imo. As for BJJ, I would say wrestling is the superior grappling art.



Aren’t all martial arts just training methods? Also Bjj is a form of wrestling, and the foundation of modern submission grappling.



> Your example, is for the chinese kung fu master, is old and really, he just fought a person with full contact using punches and kicks (pretty common in all arts) I don't think the Kung Fu master ever really fought a day in his life.



That’s kind of the point.



> The UFC calls themselves a entertainment industry, not a sport industry. You'd need to take that up with them.



The UFC is as entertainment company. MMA is a style/system of martial arts. There’s a difference.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> And you should try reading sometime. Nowhere in that reply did I say that MMA has the largest population or having the biggest growth.


you said it had lead to the demise of kung fu, clearly it's the popularity of tkd that has some responsibility for that, not some challenge fight,that very few people have heard of,

your taking unrelated facts and weaving a narrative of causation and it's at best dishonest


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> you said it had lead to the demise of kung fu, clearly its tkd that has done that, not some challenge fight,that very few people have heard of,



I said "partially causing the decline of". There's that nasty habit of you not reading things again.

And actually the multiple challenge fights have been rather big news...

Chinese Martial Artists Must Stop Calling Themselves "Masters", According to Official Decree
Meet the Chinese MMA Fighter Taking on the Grandmasters of Kung Fu
He rose to fame for exposing fake kung fu. Now he just wants to ‘survive’ - Inkstone


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I said "partially causing the decline of". There's that nasty habit of you not reading things again.
> 
> And actually the multiple challenge fights have been rather big news...
> 
> ...


well would you care to define partially,  it covers an enourmass range of numbers

ok can you show that a challenge fight has had even noticable effect on the decline of kung fu popularity with the chinese people,  allowing that this decline is some decades old?


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> well would you care to define partially,  it covers an enourmass range of numbers



You can go to a dictionary to look up the definition of partially. 



> ok can you show that a challenge fight has had even noticable effect on the decline of kung fu popularity with the chinese people,  allowing that this decline is some decades old?



Look at the links I posted. In one link in particular, the Chinese Wushu Association stated that CMAs must stop calling themselves masters because it was embarrassing traditional martial arts. That arose from the MMA vs CMA challenge matches.

There's also this;

Kung Fu’s Identity Crisis


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I said "partially causing the decline of". There's that nasty habit of you not reading things again.
> 
> And actually the multiple challenge fights have been rather big news...
> 
> ...


rather big news where e


Hanzou said:


> You can go to a dictionary to look up the definition of partially.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know what it means it's an  amount between 00000000000000.1 and 9999999999999999999999999.9 infact any number at all less than 100%

as such meaningless with out context

but you know that,  which is why you use it to describe thing you have absolutly no way of quantifing

so back to your claim, show what amount of the decline in king fu is directly applicable to these challenge fights


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

where has the flipping edit button gone?


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

found it, conveniently located ?


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Aren’t all martial arts just training methods? Also Bjj is a form of wrestling, and the foundation of modern submission grappling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MMA is a method of 3 different training methods, so no I wouldn't call it a style.

BJJ...as the modern submission, method is a matter of opinion, maybe for sport, maybe but in itself it is nothing new, a majority of the submission were used before the Gracie's and their offshoots...but I ain't much into sport arts myself.

As for the point...with the Kung Fu master...it could have been any contact fighter...And, it is nothing new. Although it is nice that the exposure brought back the reality of combat neglected in the 80's in favor of point and light contact.

Taking the contact out for sport, is what damaged TMA in the first place.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> MMA is a method of 3 different training methods, so no I wouldn't call it a style.
> 
> BJJ...as the modern submission, method is a matter of opinion, maybe for sport, maybe but in itself it is nothing new, a majority of the submission were used before the Gracie's and their offshoots...but I ain't much into sport arts myself.



Bjj being the foundation of modern submission grappling doesn't mean that it is the birth place of those submissions. Instead it became the house in which various schools of grappling came together and formed modern submission grappling. You can view that as an opinion, but you would need to come up with an alternative to that fact.

Also submission grappling is a pretty integral part of self defense and unarmed military training in many organizations.

Your view of MMA is definitely an opinion though.




Graywalker said:


> As for the point...with the Kung Fu master...it could have been any contact fighter...And, it is nothing new. Although it is nice that the exposure brought back the reality of combat neglected in the 80's in favor of point and light contact.
> 
> Taking the contact out for sport, is what damaged TMA in the first place.



The overall point though is that MMA (via its influence from Bjj) forced traditional martial arts to be held to its standards. In the case of karate, a large part of why it gets disrespected is because MMA presents challenges that Karate simply can't (or won't address). One big one is what happens if you get taken to the ground by a grappler? That's something that has emerged because of the influence of MMA, and Karate simply doesn't have an answer for that.

I've gotten offers to teach Bjj at various karate dojos over the last decade or so for that very reason.


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Bjj being the foundation of modern submission grappling doesn't mean that it is the birth place of those submissions. Instead it became the house in which various schools of grappling came together and formed modern submission grappling. You can view that as an opinion, but you would need to come up with an alternative to that fact.
> 
> Also submission grappling is a pretty integral part of self defense and unarmed military training in many organizations.
> 
> ...


I think you give to much credit to two things, already in existence, given new names. I think both the mma and bjj world, are simply old things with revamped names and given a place to express that.

I don't watch either, simply because they are sport oriented.


----------



## Steve (Apr 28, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I think you give to much credit to two things, already in existence, given new names. I think both the mma and bjj world, are simply old things with revamped names and given a place to express that.
> 
> I don't watch either, simply because they are sport oriented.


I agree. There really isn't any difference between BJJ and a koryu art.  Now that we've got that out of the way, a lot of these discussions will surely go much better.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 28, 2021)

Buka said:


> The real question is why is there so much disrespect for each other on this forum and what can we do to stop it?
> 
> If some of you ever trained in a real dojo and had the attitudes and bad manners you display here you would get your ash handed to you in a broken lunch pail.



We are pretty committed to smack talk in our gym. So you guys would be fine here.

Although telling my coach squirrel girl would beat captain America did get pretty tense there for a while.


----------



## Buka (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Bjj being the foundation of modern submission grappling doesn't mean that it is the birth place of those submissions. Instead it became the house in which various schools of grappling came together and formed modern submission grappling. You can view that as an opinion, but you would need to come up with an alternative to that fact.
> 
> Also submission grappling is a pretty integral part of self defense and unarmed military training in many organizations.
> 
> ...



Did you end up going to those schools and teaching?


----------



## Buka (Apr 28, 2021)

drop bear said:


> We are pretty committed to smack talk in our gym. So you guys would be fine here.
> 
> Although telling my coach squirrel girl would beat captain America did get pretty tense there for a while.


Smack talk is just funning' around. I, personally, don't consider it disrespectful.

(Obviously depending on the circumstances.)


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 28, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Nah, point the finger at MMA. While people couldn't actually view the fights themselves, the results were still broadcasted far and wide. MMA is what changed the landscape of martial arts and put traditional martial arts on a backpedal where they have to constantly be judged against its standard. Karate was a victim of that sea change.



The decline of karate started before MMA became mainstream.  Off the top of my head, Double Impact comes to mind as a candidate for the last karate-based box office hit.  That's from 1991.  MMA didn't enter the mainstream until around just before the end of the 90's.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> The decline of karate started before MMA became mainstream.  Off the top of my head, Double Impact comes to mind as a candidate for the last karate-based box office hit.  That's from 1991.  MMA didn't enter the mainstream until around just before the end of the 90's.


eer the karate kid 2010


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> eer the karate kid 2010


Despite the name, that was actually kung fu.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Despite the name, that was actually kung fu.


no it wasnt, your thinking of the first one


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 28, 2021)

.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> no it wasnt, your thinking of the first one



The first Karate Kid movie was 1984, and it was Okinawan Karate. 
The 2010 movie was actually called "The Kung Fu Dream" in China. Because it was based on Kung Fu. 
Remember that time you tried to correct someones English? Yeah. You shouldn't do that, Mr Pot. Seven words, four grammatical errors. And even if it were translated into English, it would still be wrong.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> The first Karate Kid movie was 1984, and it was Okinawan Karate.
> The 2010 movie was actually called "The Kung Fu Dream" in China. Because it was based on Kung Fu.
> Remember that time you tried to correct someones English? Yeah. You shouldn't do that, Mr Pot. Seven words, four grammatical errors. And even if it were translated into English, it would still be wrong.


9 words, at least my numeracy is up to par

nb and it not grammatically correct to start a sentence with and, even if you put a capital on it, Mr Pan


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> The decline of karate started before MMA became mainstream.  Off the top of my head, Double Impact comes to mind as a candidate for the last karate-based box office hit.  That's from 1991.  MMA didn't enter the mainstream until around just before the end of the 90's.


I would agree, I think it was the sudden change to light or no contact tournament rules.


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 28, 2021)

Steve said:


> I agree. There really isn't any difference between BJJ and a koryu art.  Now that we've got that out of the way, a lot of these discussions will surely go much better.


Lol...yes, I was going to move on from this repetitive discussion.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> The decline of karate started before MMA became mainstream.  Off the top of my head, Double Impact comes to mind as a candidate for the last karate-based box office hit.  That's from 1991.  MMA didn't enter the mainstream until around just before the end of the 90's.


Muay thai and Kickboxing didn't help.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> rather big news where e
> 
> I know what it means it's an  amount between 00000000000000.1 and 9999999999999999999999999.9 infact any number at all less than 100%
> 
> ...





Buka said:


> Did you end up going to those schools and teaching?



Yeah, it was from my old Shotokan teacher. I only did a few lessons though. Very interesting experience.


----------



## jobo (Apr 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, it was from my old Shotokan teacher. I only did a few lessons though. Very interesting experience.


I see you only have a down on karate etal for  not including ground defence and not say boxing or mt, that would be similarly disadvantaged if they found them selves on the floor with someone sat on them

but then bjj, would be some what disadvantaged against a good striker, so its swings and round abouts


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> I see you only have a down on karate etal for  not including ground defence and not say boxing or mt, that would be similarly disadvantaged if they found them selves on the floor with someone sat on them



Because we're in the Karate/Japanese forums. If we were in general MA forum, I'd happily talk about MT and Boxing.


----------



## jobo (Apr 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Because we're in the Karate/Japanese forums. If we were in general MA forum, I'd happily talk about MT and Boxing.


judging by the usual conduct of the forum that isn't a bar to any conversation, but you do seem to be spending most of your time exalting the virtues of bjj which is neither Japanese or karate, so clearly you don't find the forum section heading all that important

but the comment was about your general conduct rather than these post in particular, karate and other stand up arts all have the same inherent weakness, just as all grappling arts have the opposite issue.

karate, at least some karate, does include stand up grappling and floor work, so its a much more complete art than some, certainly more complete than bjj. is it as proficient at floor work as bjj, possibly not, it is a better compromise than only being a one trick pony


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> judging by the usual conduct of the forum that isn't a bar to any conversation, but you do seem to be spending most of your time exalting the virtues of bjj which is neither Japanese or karate, so clearly you don't find the forum section heading all that important
> 
> but the comment was about your general conduct rather than these post in particular, karate and other stand up arts all have the same inherent weakness, just as all grappling arts have the opposite issue.
> 
> karate, at least some karate, does include stand up grappling and floor work, so its a much more complete art than some, certainly more complete than bjj. is it as proficient at floor work as bjj, possibly not, it is a better compromise than only being a one trick pony



Karate's stand up grappling isn't sufficient against a competent grappler or even a weak grappler with superior size and strength. Further, in a striking exchange, you have a very high chance of ending up in a clinch, which gives the advantage to the grappler. Finally, submission grappling has standing submissions, and that includes Bjj.


----------



## jobo (Apr 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Karate's stand up grappling isn't sufficient against a competent grappler or even a weak grappler with superior size and strength. Further, in a striking exchange, you have a very high chance of ending up in a clinch, which gives the advantage to the grappler. Finally, submission grappling has standing submissions, and that includes Bjj.


your saying that like its a fact and not an opinion a problem you seem to have an ongoing issue with

other than opinions and a bemusing logic circle involving mma can you evidence that point

my experience, is poor grapplers who are bigger and stronger end up on the floor quite easily, but i stress this is my opinion,

do you have anything that isnt just your opinion to support you claim


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> your saying that like its a fact and not an opinion a problem you seem to have an ongoing issue with
> 
> other than opinions and a bemusing logic circle involving mma can you evidence that point
> 
> ...



So you're saying that assailants bigger and stronger than you get thrown to the floor "easily" via your superior Karate grappling?


----------



## jobo (Apr 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that assailants bigger and stronger than you get thrown to the floor "easily" via your superior Karate grappling?


that has thus far been my experience, yes


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> that has thus far been my experience, yes



You need to sell your secrets to Judo then, because even Judo black belts have trouble throwing assailants bigger and stronger than them to the ground. They can certainly do it, but I would hesitate to say that they can do so "easily".


----------



## jobo (Apr 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You need to sell your secrets to Judo then, because even Judo black belts have trouble throwing assailants bigger and stronger than them to the ground. They can certainly do it, but I would hesitate to say that they can do so "easily".


its not a secrete mate, its just leverage , good balance and reactions, i have more problem with smaller guys as their centre of gravity is lower than mine


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> its not a secrete mate, its just leverage , good balance and reactions, i have more problem with smaller guys as their centre of gravity is lower than mine



You're right, it's not a "secrete", it's pure fantasy. It's right up there with Jowga saying he can't be taken down because of a kung fu stance.


----------



## jobo (Apr 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You're right, it's not a "secrete", it's pure fantasy. It's right up there with Jowga saying he can't be taken down because of a kung fu stance.


well thats yet another opinion, your good at those,,  i don't need to be stronger than the other guy as long as i dont get into a trial of strength with him, I just need to be strong enough using leverage to move his body passed its tipping point and down he goes, speed is more important than strength

i have no issue at all moving anyone even vaguely normal body weight,  i weigh 200lb and i can move that about with great ease, 250 300 lbs and a bit of leverage and down they go, much more than that and i might have a problem just over coming their inertia, but then they are likely to expire of a heart attack anyway


----------



## Graywalker (Apr 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You need to sell your secrets to Judo then, because even Judo black belts have trouble throwing assailants bigger and stronger than them to the ground. They can certainly do it, but I would hesitate to say that they can do so "easily".


Lever, pulley, incline plane, wheel...these are basic tools to move larger objects with ease. Sure you will encounter resistance...but it can still be used with proficiency.

These same ideas can be applied to any number of throws...and if you always wind up in a clinch in a fight, you need to reevaluate your skills.

You are basically claiming to have knowledge of all karate systems and you simply do not.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Lever, pulley, incline plane, wheel...these are basic tools to move larger objects with ease. Sure you will encounter resistance...but it can still be used with proficiency.
> 
> These same ideas can be applied to any number of throws...and if you always wind up in a clinch in a fight, you need to reevaluate your skills.
> 
> You are basically claiming to have knowledge of all karate systems and you simply do not.



I'm claiming that Judoka and wrestlers are the best in the game. If those groups have difficulty throwing larger  and stronger opponents, then there's *zero* chance karate could teach someone to throw someone larger than them "easily".


----------



## drop bear (Apr 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> well thats yet another opinion, your good at those,,  i don't need to be stronger than the other guy as long as i dont get into a trial of strength with him, I just need to be strong enough using leverage to move his body passed its tipping point and down he goes, speed is more important than strength
> 
> i have no issue at all moving anyone even vaguely normal body weight,  i weigh 200lb and i can move that about with great ease, 250 300 lbs and a bit of leverage and down they go, much more than that and i might have a problem just over coming their inertia, but then they are likely to expire of a heart attack anyway


Why aren't they using leverage to stop you?


----------



## jobo (Apr 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Why aren't they using leverage to stop you?


coz they are " weak "at grappeling , and I'm to fast for them,


----------



## Graywalker (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'm claiming that Judoka and wrestlers are the best in the game. If those groups have difficulty throwing larger  and stronger opponents, then there's *zero* chance karate could teach someone to throw someone larger than them "easily".


Boy you really wasted a lot of your years in a sport Karate, to hate it so much. You could really blame your instructor and yourself for being scammed. Not all of Karate.


----------



## Hanzou (May 3, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Boy you really wasted a lot of your years in a sport Karate, to hate it so much. You could really blame your instructor and yourself for being scammed. Not all of Karate.



So you're saying that Karate has better grappling than Judo, Wrestling, and BJJ?


----------



## Graywalker (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that Karate has better grappling than Judo, Wrestling, and BJJ?


No, you should read that post again. In noway did I even touch base with that.

But is judo and wrestling superior to Karate when only striking can be used? Punches, kicks and elbows? No they are not.

So what's your point. When inside a specific ruleset, one art is superior to another?


----------



## jobo (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that Karate has better grappling than Judo, Wrestling, and BJJ?


it has much the same grappling as judo, but not perhaps sports judo

would i loose a contest under judo rules, wrestling rules or bbj rules, yes almost certainly, if i can soften them up with an elbow first id be more confident.

which is really the point your missing karate is a mixed ma, only one component may be weaker , but as an amalgamation of striking and grappling is quite effective

but as ive stressed before, im not really training to take on graded fighters of any discipline, so it doesn't really matter how a hypothetical fight against an unknown opponent of unknown abilities may turn out under an unknown rule set


----------



## Hanzou (May 3, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> No, you should read that post again. In noway did I even touch base with that.
> 
> But is judo and wrestling superior to Karate when only striking can be used? Punches, kicks and elbows? No they are not.



Maybe you should read Jobo's responses. He clearly believes differently, and that's the person I'm responding to (and you're responding to those responses).



> So what's your point. When inside a specific ruleset, one art is superior to another?



Not within a certain ruleset, but overall. The problem with Karate is that you're talking about an archaic striking system that simply isn't up to par with modern striking methods. Pair that up with its equally archaic and undertrained grappling mechanics, and you have a family of arts that are slowly inching towards being obsolete for fighting.


----------



## jobo (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Maybe you should read Jobo's responses. He clearly believes differently, and that's the person I'm responding to (and you're responding to those responses).
> 
> 
> 
> Not within a certain ruleset, but overall. The problem with Karate is that you're talking about an archaic striking system that simply isn't up to par with modern striking methods. Pair that up with its equally archaic and undertrained grappling mechanics, and you have a family of arts that are slowly inching towards being obsolete for fighting.


no you clearly responded to him, by quoting him

there is nothing archaic about my karate striking it seem to contain all the punches common in boxing plus knees and elbows and fore arms and head butts

this is the bit were you attack an imaginary problem and when i say we don't do that, you say well it not real karate then, coz strawman


----------



## Graywalker (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Not within a certain ruleset, but overall. The problem with Karate is that you're talking about an archaic striking system that simply isn't up to par with modern striking methods. Pair that up with its equally archaic and undertrained grappling mechanics, and you have a family of arts that are slowly inching towards being obsolete for fighting


You are again making the mistake concerning your Karate training. I personally, have never had an issue with 'Modern Striking' as you state it. As a matter of fact, modern strikers... whatever that means, have never been an issue for my Karate, I would even go as far as stating that so called modern striking, really ain't that modern and just because you finally caught up... doesn't make your striking, in anyway modern.


----------



## Hanzou (May 3, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> You are again making the mistake concerning your Karate training. I personally, have never had an issue with 'Modern Striking' as you state it.



Of course, just like Jobo throws around big/larger people around easily using Karate "grappling" right?


----------



## jobo (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Of course, just like Jobo throws around big/larger people around easily using Karate "grappling" right?


I throw big people around quite easily anyway, karate just makes it a peice of cake.

karate is really good up close, sort of elbow, throw, arm bar head butt  range, I dont think it's the best as a range art, but then most fight are up close


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> it has much the same grappling as judo, but not perhaps sports judo



Judo has over 100 grappling techniques, 67 of which are nage waza.  You're saying you learned that many through karate?


----------



## jobo (May 3, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Judo has over 100 grappling techniques, 67 of which are nage waza.  You're saying you learned that many through karate?


no only the good ones


----------



## Graywalker (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Of course, just like Jobo throws around big/larger people around easily using Karate "grappling" right?


Can't speak for him, but never had an issue. As a matter of fact, it is an issue, that relaxes me, once I know it's a "Modern fighter" I am up against...no worries with this guy.


----------



## drop bear (May 3, 2021)

And that is why anecdotes are not the same as evidence.


----------



## jobo (May 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And that is why anecdotes are not the same as evidence.


well yes they are evidence,  they may not be evidence you find persuasive,  but they are evidence nether the less


----------



## drop bear (May 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> well yes they are evidence,  they may not be evidence you find persuasive,  but they are evidence nether the less



Yes but I have seen you grapple and all your claims are false.

And that is exactly the same evidence.


----------



## Steve (May 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And that is why anecdotes are not the same as evidence.


One time, back in '04, I shared over 100 undocumented and totally unprovable anecdotes in a single hour.  That's when I got the nickname "Anecdote Steve." 

It was a heady time, the early 2000s.  Let me share a quick anecdote.  I remember the day well.  The wind was coming out of the SSW at 4 knots, and there was a slight snap in the air, like the unkept promise of rain threatening at any moment.  it was on that day that I saw a ninja defeat Rickson Gracie in a no hold's barred cage match and knew once and for all that ninjutsu really is "teh de3dly."  Really.  It totally happened, and so ninjutsu > BJJ.


----------



## jobo (May 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yes but I have seen you grapple and all your claims are false.
> 
> And that is exactly the same evidence.


no that a fabrication, that's different than anecdote,  but yes complete lies are indeed evidence, lots of people have been convicted on lies given as evidence in court


----------



## Hanzou (May 3, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Judo has over 100 grappling techniques, 67 of which are nage waza.  You're saying you learned that many through karate?



He is. Which is why I didn't even bother responding to him.


----------



## jobo (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> He is. Which is why I didn't even bother responding to him.


no I'm not, I didnt even come close to sugesting I'd learnt 100 grappling techniques,


----------



## Graywalker (May 3, 2021)

Um...Judo uses Kata for training, so it must be archaic and useless, why use it as an example?😁


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> no I'm not, I didnt even come close to sugesting I'd learnt 100 grappling techniques,



You said your karate has the same grappling as judo.


----------



## drop bear (May 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> no that a fabrication, that's different than anecdote,  but yes complete lies are indeed evidence, lots of people have been convicted on lies given as evidence in court



But who is to say yours isn't a fabrication?


----------



## Shatteredzen (May 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Maybe you should read Jobo's responses. He clearly believes differently, and that's the person I'm responding to (and you're responding to those responses).
> 
> 
> 
> Not within a certain ruleset, but overall. The problem with Karate is that you're talking about an archaic striking system that simply isn't up to par with modern striking methods. Pair that up with its equally archaic and undertrained grappling mechanics, and you have a family of arts that are slowly inching towards being obsolete for fighting.


Modern striking methods? Please give an example of these modern striking methods.


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Modern striking methods? Please give an example of these modern striking methods.


----------



## Shatteredzen (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


>


So... boxing jabs and hooks, k


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> So... boxing jabs and hooks, k



No.

Which is the mistake a lot of people make.

You think you are doing the same thing because they have the same names. But you really are not doing the same thing.


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> You said your karate has the same grappling as judo.


I've not checked but I'm pretty sure I said much the same grappling as judo


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> I've not checked but I'm pretty sure I said much the same grappling as judo


No.

Which is the mistake a lot of people make.

You think you are doing the same thing because they have the same names. But you really are not doing the same thing.


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> No.
> 
> Which is the mistake a lot of people make.
> 
> You think you are doing the same thing because they have the same names. But you really are not doing the same thing.


I've no idea if they have the same name, I make no attempt to learn the names, but I have done both judo and juijitsu and they are very much the same technques beibg applied, it's a lot closer to the juijitsu I learnt that the sports judo I did,  but much the same throws and holds as both, largely as they come from the same route and there only so many was to put someone on the floor, I suspect


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> But who is to say yours isn't a fabrication?


and who to say your isnt, as it is you keep fabricating facts, when all your offering is opinions


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> and who to say your isnt, as it is you keep fabricating facts, when all your offering is opinions



I am pretty sure out of the two of us. I am the only person who has shown my grappling and striking sparring.


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> I've no idea if they have the same name, I make no attempt to learn the names, but I have done both judo and juijitsu and they are very much the same technques beibg applied, it's a lot closer to the juijitsu I learnt that the sports judo I did,  but much the same throws and holds as both, largely as they come from the same route and there only so many was to put someone on the floor, I suspect



You are almost certainly not doing the technique with the same depth as a decent judoka. 

There is a lot of back of house that makes the techniques work against anyone any good.


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I am pretty sure out of the two of us. I am the only person who has shown my grappling and striking sparring.


that's not realy relivant to the point, your sparring may be real,  who knows, but you opinion that it proves you can fight better than others, is bogus


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You are almost certainly not doing the technique with the same depth as a decent judoka.
> 
> There is a lot of back of house that makes the techniques work against anyone any good.


is that another opinion,  how can you possibly know the depth and why would greater depth make them better, they either work or they dont, and what exactly is a " decent judoka" and I'm not slightly concern if they work against anyone " good",  and what does " good" entail?


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> that's not realy relivant to the point, your sparring may be real,  who knows, but you opinion that it proves you can fight better than others, is bogus



It proves I am not making stuff up. Which is the point.


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> is that another opinion,  how can you possibly know the depth and why would greater depth make them better, they either work or they dont, and what exactly is a " decent judoka" and I'm not slightly concern if they work against anyone " good",  and what does " good" entail?


You are also posting opinion. So there is no need to use a fact. There is nothing to use a fact on. You say you are the boss at karate throws. I say you are not. It evens out. 

The give away is that you don't understand the difference between a judokas throw and your own.


----------



## Shatteredzen (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> No.
> 
> Which is the mistake a lot of people make.
> 
> You think you are doing the same thing because they have the same names. But you really are not doing the same thing.



I think you can make the argument that boxing has seen some fresh development from MMA, I especially like the practice of striking while withdrawing from the opponent that Liddell seems to have started or at least showcased. George St. Pierre came from a Karate background though and he's one of the best fighters of all time. We can update training methods to focus on more practical exercises than rote katas, but I would not say that Karate is an obsolete or impractical striking art.


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You are also posting opinion. So there is no need to use a fact. There is nothing to use a fact on. You say you are the boss at karate throws. I say you are not. It evens out.
> 
> The give away is that you don't understand the difference between a judokas throw and your own.


the differance is not not dressing up m opinion  as facts, I didnt say I was boss, I said I have little trouble putting big guys on the ground, that is so far factua,  there may come a day when it's not so easy

you can of course choose to believe that or not, it doednt honestly make any differance to if I can do so or not or if I care what you think or not

so fact karate contains throws

opinion, I think they are extremly effective

now you try splitting opinion and fact, let's see if you can do it or not, my money is on not


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> the differance is not not dressing up m opinion  as facts, I didnt say I was boss, I said I have little trouble putting big guys on the ground, that is so far factua,  there may come a day when it's not so easy
> 
> you can of course choose to believe that or not, it doednt honestly make any differance to if I can do so or not or if I care what you think or not
> 
> ...



Ok. Karate contains throws, fact.

You have no evidence to support that those throws are comparable to judo, fact.

You are making up stories of how effective you are, opinion.


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> I think you can make the argument that boxing has seen some fresh development from MMA, I especially like the practice of striking while withdrawing from the opponent that Liddell seems to have started or at least showcased. George St. Pierre came from a Karate background though and he's one of the best fighters of all time. We can update training methods to focus on more practical exercises than rote katas, but I would not say that Karate is an obsolete or impractical striking art.



Karate that uses modern striking methods tends to work a lot better than karate that doesn't. 

Gsp for example flies in top Thai guys to spar with.


----------



## Shatteredzen (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Karate that uses modern striking methods tends to work a lot better than karate that doesn't.
> 
> Gsp for example flies in top Thai guys to spar with.


Yes, but GSP did not start with Muay Thai until he was already a world class fighter, he came into MMA as a BJJ/Karate guy.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Karate contains throws, fact.
> 
> You have no evidence to support that those throws are comparable to judo, fact.
> 
> You are making up stories of how effective you are, opinion.


I can't speak for all karate but I do know that when Sosai Mas Oyama was initially spreading Kyokushin he approached some top level Judoka Sensei to join.   My understanding is he was quite successful in attracting them and I expect that they would have taught the same Judo techniques as part of the Kyokushin syllabus.   Shihan Jon Bluming would be one of the best examples I can think of at the top of my head.  Shihan Bluming is also a pioneer of blending striking with grappling.


drop bear said:


> Karate that uses modern striking methods tends to work a lot better than karate that doesn't.
> 
> Gsp for example flies in top Thai guys to spar with.


Makes sense to me that GSP would fly in top Thai guys so he could better study the striking of his opponents.


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Karate contains throws, fact.
> 
> You have no evidence to support that those throws are comparable to judo, fact.
> 
> You are making up stories of how effective you are, opinion.


we clearly they are comparable as i compared them, ( and so did you ), that what the word means ..fact

( nb that makes your FACT an opinion, please edit your post accordingly)

as are you opinion


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I can't speak for all karate but I do know that when Sosai Mas Oyama was initially spreading Kyokushin he approached some top level Judoka Sensei to join.   My understanding is he was quite successful in attracting them and I expect that they would have taught the same Judo techniques as part of the Kyokushin syllabus.   Shihan Jon Bluming would be one of the an think of at the top of my head.  Shihan Bluming is also a pioneer of blending striking with grappling.
> 
> Makes sense to me that GSP would fly in top Thai guys so he could better study the striking of his opponents.



Yeah but karate didn't keep them, sort of.

So for example a MMA school attracts a top grappler in to their system. The grappler, due to his expertise runs the show. Or the other stylists get good enough at that grappling to pass it on.

And then that school has good grapplers.

So local karate school



			Fitzroy Martial Arts | Fitzroy Fitness
		



has good grappling. But they spend enough time on that grappling to get good.


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> we clearly they are comparable as i compared them, that what the word means ..fact
> 
> so are you opinion



No evidence to support they are comparable. 

So you compared them, yes.  But there is no evidence to support that comparison. 

You are substituting reality and inserting your own again.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but karate didn't keep them, sort of.
> 
> So for example a MMA school attracts a top grappler in to their system. The grappler, due to his expertise runs the show. Or the other stylists get good enough at that grappling to pass it on.
> 
> ...


Actually karate did keep them.  Not ALL branches and styles but there are certainly some that have done so and are recognized for keeping that part of it in their syllabus.   Ashihara and Enshin are two examples but there are probably more.  

In regards to your example, this is exactly what Sosai did in the early part of Kyokushin's history.   By approaching Judoka Sensei he could also tap on their knowledge and skill but of course the dojo operator has to teach and have his/her students practice these techniques for them to become proficient at it.   Simply having a sign on the door that says you do something that you actually do not practice in class regularly is not going to work.


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Actually karate did keep them.  Not ALL branches and styles but there are certainly some that have done so and are recognized for keeping that part of it in their syllabus.   Ashihara and Enshin are two examples but there are probably more.
> 
> In regards to your example, this is exactly what Sosai did in the early part of Kyokushin's history.   By approaching Judoka Sensei he could also tap on their knowledge and skill but of course the dojo operator has to teach and have his/her students practice these techniques for them to become proficient at it.   Simply having a sign on the door that says you do something that you actually do not practice in class regularly is not going to work.



Do you feel your instructor would win a judo competition at any level?


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> No evidence to support they are comparable.
> 
> So you compared them, yes.  But there is no evidence to support that comparison.
> 
> You are substituting reality and inserting your own again.


You said they weren't comparable and they are, so that's not a fact

you don't get to jump horse mid race, its now 1_ 0 to me

go back and give another factual statement or you just loose  the whole game


----------



## Yokozuna514 (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Do you feel your instructor would win a judo competition at any level?


I'm not sure what your question has to do with my answer but I suspect Shihan Bluming was an accomplished judoka that earned his stripes on the tatami.    I further surmise that if a karateka with a background in judo were to open up a school to teach karate, his teachings would be influenced by his judo regardless if he won competitions or not.


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I'm not sure what your question has to do with my answer but I suspect Shihan Bluming was an accomplished judoka that earned his stripes on the tatami.    I further surmise that if a karateka with a background in judo were to open up a school to teach karate, his teachings would be influenced by his judo regardless if he won competitions or not.



You can do judo. And you can do judo. 

I could be influenced by judo. But I wouldn't claim judo unless I actually had a real background in it. Because this is how you get terrible grappling.


----------



## drop bear (May 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> You said they weren't comparable and they are, so that's not a fact
> 
> you don't get to jump horse mid race, its now 1_ 0 to me
> 
> go back and give another factual statement or you just loose  the whole game



No I didn't say that. 

I said this.

"You have no evidence to support that those throws are comparable to judo, fact."

And that is a fact. With evidence to support it.


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Do you feel your instructor would win a judo competition at any level?


yes i think he would, he would be odds on for the under 7s champtionship


drop bear said:


> No I didn't say that.
> 
> I said this.
> 
> ...


but they are clearly comparable as we both compared them,

we have done this

but still im taking the point so its 2-0 to me

i honestly though you make a better stab at this, its like taking candy off a baby


----------



## jobo (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You can do judo. And you can do judo.


now this is factual, im not sure why you had to say it twice


----------



## Graywalker (May 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


>


So basic punching...got it.


----------



## Graywalker (May 4, 2021)

Some folks really had some bad Karate instructors.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (May 5, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You can do judo. And you can do judo.
> 
> I could be influenced by judo. But I wouldn't claim judo unless I actually had a real background in it. Because this is how you get terrible grappling.


I think I understand what you are saying here.   You want to the knowledge of peoples' claims to match their credentials and experience level.   Correct ?

Shihan Bluming as a 10th Dan in Judo.   Not that belt stripes are the be all and end all but he was a high level judoka in the 70's so I think he (amongst the other Judo Sensei that were approached at the same time) have a real background in the art.


----------



## drop bear (May 6, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> So basic punching...got it.



That is about as far removed from basic punching as you can get.


----------



## drop bear (May 6, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I think I understand what you are saying here.   You want to the knowledge of peoples' claims to match their credentials and experience level.   Correct ?
> 
> Shihan Bluming as a 10th Dan in Judo.   Not that belt stripes are the be all and end all but he was a high level judoka in the 70's so I think he (amongst the other Judo Sensei that were approached at the same time) have a real background in the art.



Yeah. Krav tends to do that a bit. They take moves from boxing and mma and something something the street. 

And what you get is a person who takes a move they don't really understand and teaches it to people who don't know any better. 

You don't get very good results.


----------



## Graywalker (May 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> That is about as far removed from basic punching as you can get.


Actually it is not, these are things that I learned in my youth and teach to this day. Sure he has mastered the basics very well. But, in the right hands, the basics are supposed to look advanced...it all boils down, in any craft, to mastering the basics.


----------



## Graywalker (May 6, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Actually karate did keep them.  Not ALL branches and styles but there are certainly some that have done so and are recognized for keeping that part of it in their syllabus.   Ashihara and Enshin are two examples but there are probably more.
> 
> In regards to your example, this is exactly what Sosai did in the early part of Kyokushin's history.   By approaching Judoka Sensei he could also tap on their knowledge and skill but of course the dojo operator has to teach and have his/her students practice these techniques for them to become proficient at it.   Simply having a sign on the door that says you do something that you actually do not practice in class regularly is not going to work.


This is true, Bob Babich, the founder of my system, so to speak, was an early black belt if Don Buck..and we have grappling in our system. 

Is it great against 24/7 grapplers? Probably not, but staying on the ground fulltime in a fight, is in no way realistic. But, it is useful for getting off the ground.

Why grapple when you can strike your way off of the ground.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> We are pretty committed to smack talk in our gym. So you guys would be fine here.
> 
> Although telling my coach squirrel girl would beat captain America did get pretty tense there for a while.


It's right there in the title: The *Unbeatable* Squirrel Girl. Did Captain America ever take down Thanos on his own? I think not.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You can do judo. And you can do judo.
> 
> I could be influenced by judo. But I wouldn't claim judo unless I actually had a real background in it. Because this is how you get terrible grappling.


I believe Yokozuna514 was referencing Jon Bluming, who was a high level judoka as well as a high level kyokushin karateka. I don't know how much of his grappling/judo experience he passed on to his karate students, but it's perhaps notable that one of his students (Takashi Azuma) went on to found Kudo. 

I do agree that most karate practitioners don't have nearly that level of grappling ability, but there are some who do.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (May 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Krav tends to do that a bit. They take moves from boxing and mma and something something the street.
> 
> And what you get is a person who takes a move they don't really understand and teaches it to people who don't know any better.
> 
> You don't get very good results.


I think that has more to do with integrity than anything else.   If you don't have a proper understanding of the material then what are you passing on ?   GIGO.


Graywalker said:


> This is true, Bob Babich, the founder of my system, so to speak, was an early black belt if Don Buck..and we have grappling in our system.
> 
> Is it great against 24/7 grapplers? Probably not, but staying on the ground fulltime in a fight, is in no way realistic. But, it is useful for getting off the ground.
> 
> Why grapple when you can strike your way off of the ground.


Yes essentially Dojo Operators that have a proper foundation in one art can definitely integrate it into another given the will to do so.  Grappling off the ground or striking off the ground, two sides of the same coin.  


Tony Dismukes said:


> I believe Yokozuna514 was referencing Jon Bluming, who was a high level judoka as well as a high level kyokushin karateka. I don't know how much of his grappling/judo experience he passed on to his karate students, but it's perhaps notable that one of his students (Takashi Azuma) went on to found Kudo.
> 
> I do agree that most karate practitioners don't have nearly that level of grappling ability, but there are some who do.


It is my understanding that he integrated both when passing down his system.   Osu, the late Shihan Takashi Azuma is another great example.  

On the average, you are probably correct about 'most' karate practitioners.   To be reasonably proficient at grappling, you need to practice grappling.   Same with striking and kicking.   How many hours a week is that going to take ?   A lot more than 3........


----------



## Tez3 (May 8, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Judo has over 100 grappling techniques, 67 of which are nage waza.  You're saying you learned that many through karate?


Wado Ryu karate includes throws and grappling as the founder was also a Jujutsu master.


----------



## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

Manwithquestions said:


> I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie


Honestly, good Karate is on par with a y other art except Grappling arts. The biggest problem is the Mc dojo pay for black belt factories. They are easy to market and skill isnt important to Mcdojos. 
You do hundreds of hours of Kata and zero randori or realistic fighting.  Lots of 13 year old black belts that can't do a form to save their lives gives Karate the bad rap.


----------



## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Bruises, black eyes and running into training partners in social settings are all scenarios I've encountered that make it impossible to keep it a secret. I've even had friends flat out ask me if I have trained in anything.


Rule #1 about fight club...don't talk about fight club

Hehehe


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Jul 29, 2021)

*Short answer: There is a higher percentage of bad Karate practitioners than there are bad boxing/MT/etc practitioners.*

Long answer: Because of the more sophisticated nature of Karate, it requires a highly competent instructor to teach it properly, and putting this position in the hands of a mediocre teacher is what causes so many "black belts" to be churned out. Allow me to give an analogy that fits with the "McDojo" explanation:

Americanization has done to Karate what it has done to food: reducing the quality while increasing the availability. In the same way that it's easier to find a fast food joint than a top-notch eatery, it's easier to find a low-quality training center than a real dojo. And in the same way that the widespread availability of fast food has turned the average human being into an unhealthy mess, the widespread availability of low-quality Karate training has turned the average Karateka into a very poor martial artist.

In the same way you'd select a place to have a good meal at, it is recommended that you do your research on a dojo before you train at it. Good dojos do exist, and I am thankful to be training at an excellent one at the moment, but they are a rarity in the United States.


----------



## Steve (Jul 29, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> *Short answer: There is a higher percentage of bad Karate practitioners than there are bad boxing/MT/etc practitioners.*
> 
> Long answer: Because of the more sophisticated nature of Karate, it requires a highly competent instructor to teach it properly, and putting this position in the hands of a mediocre teacher is what causes so many "black belts" to be churned out. Allow me to give an analogy that fits with the "McDojo" explanation:
> 
> ...


I would expect that most or all Kyokushin Karate dojos are legit, because application is baked into the training in the form of full contact competition.  Becoming an expert in Kyokushin Karate may take years, but becoming proficient certainly wouldn't take that long. 

Regarding the long answer, frankly, I think application sort of magically shortens a learning curve.  Learning anything without application is a long and ultimately unreliable process.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 29, 2021)

Steve said:


> I would expect that most or all Kyokushin Karate dojos are legit, because application is baked into the training in the form of full contact competition.  Becoming an expert in Kyokushin Karate may take years, but becoming proficient certainly wouldn't take that long.
> 
> Regarding the long answer, frankly, I think application sort of magically shortens a learning curve.  Learning anything without application is a long and ultimately unreliable process.


they still dont punch to the face in sparring for some reason and Kykoshin has its own bad ones, given there are like 10 kykoshin orgs and everyone wants to make themselves look like it/try to fake linegiage for marketing reasons. 

also as for the orginal post you quoted, there is a lot of sophistican in boxing, muay thai etc.  "sophistication" is not the issue, compelte nonsense inside the art is.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Jul 29, 2021)

Steve said:


> I would expect that most or all Kyokushin Karate dojos are legit, because application is baked into the training in the form of full contact competition.  Becoming an expert in Kyokushin Karate may take years, but becoming proficient certainly wouldn't take that long.
> 
> Regarding the long answer, frankly, I think application sort of magically shortens a learning curve.  Learning anything without application is a long and ultimately unreliable process.


Something to go along with your answer: I have heard numerous traditional Karateka criticize Kyokushin for being too brutish and unsophisticated! I guess the more complex the art, the more likely it is you'll get a McDojo.


----------



## WonderingMonk (Jul 29, 2021)

Manwithquestions said:


> I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie


Really, it’s due to the misunderstanding about the nature of the art which has led to it being viewed as a pop culture meme. I avoid really talking to many about my martial arts practice.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jul 29, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Something to go along with your answer: I have heard numerous traditional Karateka criticize Kyokushin for being too brutish and unsophisticated! I guess the more complex the art, the more likely it is you'll get a McDojo


I watched a video last week by Jesse Enkamp, where he went to go watch a Karate Combat competition.  Basically, full contact, just like MMA; only it's strictly karate.

One thing I would live to see are gyms specifically for karateka to train for that type of sport. These wouldn't be dojos in the sense of training there to learn new techniques, kata, etc.  No, you already have a dojo that.  These hypothetical gyms would only be open to people practicing karate at a dojo, and training for this sport would be separate and in addition to.

So one of these hypothetical gyms would be in an area with multiple dojos, and people from these dojos could attend this gym.

I think that this would be an awesome alternative for people who live in areas where Kyokushin is not available, or for someone prefers a different style but still wants to do full contact competition.

Hell, this might even make karate "cool" again.


----------



## Steve (Jul 29, 2021)

Rat said:


> they still dont punch to the face in sparring for some reason and Kykoshin has its own bad ones, given there are like 10 kykoshin orgs and everyone wants to make themselves look like it/try to fake linegiage for marketing reasons.
> 
> also as for the orginal post you quoted, there is a lot of sophistican in boxing, muay thai etc.  "sophistication" is not the issue, compelte nonsense inside the art is.


Politics, competition, business, money, ego.... Many things can kill an organization that have nothing to do with the quality (good or bad) of the product.  

Marketing and all that is important for the business.  But for the quality of the training, it's about learning what you think you're learning, and doing what you learn.  So, you could have the most legit karate dojo, on paper, but if you don't train and compete with full contact, that dojo is one generation from a clear and visible drop in skill level.  



ThatOneSyrian said:


> Something to go along with your answer: I have heard numerous traditional Karateka criticize Kyokushin for being too brutish and unsophisticated! I guess the more complex the art, the more likely it is you'll get a McDojo.



I get what you're saying, and you may be right.  It's a bit of a chicken/egg thing.  Are people who are interested in being able to fight just inclined to be a little more... I don't know... gritty?  Or does training in a style that actually, really teaches you to fight intrinsically promote grittiness?  

That said, there is a spectrum that I think is largely a reflection of the school owner.  I mean, I would hope that all BJJ schools are clean and safe.  But there are BJJ schools that are more formal, some that are more polished looking, or sophisticated.  In BJJ, there are folks who are so technically skilled they will get you wrapped up in knots that you never see coming.  And then there are guys who will make you tap just from pressure in side control, just beasts. 

But as long as they all compete and all apply technique in context, the skills are developing.

Where you really get into trouble is when folks hide a lack of application behind things like refinement, sophistication, or deadliness, or other self defense buzzwords.   



Urban Trekker said:


> I watched a video last week by Jesse Enkamp, where he went to go watch a Karate Combat competition.  Basically, full contact, just like MMA; only it's strictly karate.
> 
> One thing I would live to see are gyms specifically for karateka to train for that type of sport. These wouldn't be dojos in the sense of training there to learn new techniques, kata, etc.  No, you already have a dojo that.  These hypothetical gyms would only be open to people practicing karate at a dojo, and training for this sport would be separate and in addition to.
> 
> ...


My belief is that you add application back into any style and it wouldn't take long to sort out the BS from what is functional.


----------



## Buka (Jul 29, 2021)

I have known and have friends who are black belts in Kyokushin Karate. Every single one of them loves punching to the face. I've never known one who does not.

The very first time I saw a Karate fighting competition was at Boston Arena (oldest multipurpose athletic building still in use in the word) It was a team competition, featuring a Kyokushin team. The matches were held in a boxing ring, the competitors wore no pads, no gloves. 

They looked like they were trying to kill each other. Blood all over the place, then just throw some tape over the wounds and go at it some more. Their faces were a mess, their gis bloody.

It was kinda nuts. But it got me hooked. Not the blood and injuries, but the manners and behavior displayed by the competitors.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Jul 29, 2021)

Rat said:


> they still dont punch to the face in sparring for some reason and Kykoshin has its own bad ones, given there are like 10 kykoshin orgs and everyone wants to make themselves look like it/try to fake linegiage for marketing reasons.
> 
> also as for the orginal post you quoted, there is a lot of sophistican in boxing, muay thai etc.  "sophistication" is not the issue, compelte nonsense inside the art is.


Yes, like all things, there is a spectrum of what is available especially considering when you have a sport that is so widely practiced and where there are no real governing bodies to maintain standards.   Kyokushin is no exception.  As much as many of us would like to do a 'dojo storming', legalities arising from a storming make that idea a non-starter.   Everyone knows who these dojos are and these dojos are more than welcome to come and compete in any Knockdown tournament.  In fact, we would love to see them !


ThatOneSyrian said:


> Something to go along with your answer: I have heard numerous traditional Karateka criticize Kyokushin for being too brutish and unsophisticated! I guess the more complex the art, the more likely it is you'll get a McDojo.


Perhaps in the early days of Kyokushin but even then Sosai Mas Oyama said of Kyokushin "This is not brawling karate.  It is Budo karate.".    The evolution of Knockdown as a sport has caused a genesis in techniques used, adopted and adapted for Kyokushin.   You rarely see top Knockdown fighters solely standing in front of each other in a war of attrition.   Knockdown fighting is much more tactical and sophisticated.   Fighters are still tough and conditioned but they are also more focused on strategy and tactics to be able to lengthen their fighting careers.  


Urban Trekker said:


> I watched a video last week by Jesse Enkamp, where he went to go watch a Karate Combat competition.  Basically, full contact, just like MMA; only it's strictly karate.
> 
> One thing I would live to see are gyms specifically for karateka to train for that type of sport. These wouldn't be dojos in the sense of training there to learn new techniques, kata, etc.  No, you already have a dojo that.  These hypothetical gyms would only be open to people practicing karate at a dojo, and training for this sport would be separate and in addition to.
> 
> ...


Sosai Mas Oyama never intended Kyokushin to become a sport.  His goal was to create a budo karate.   Knockdown as a sport arose from the desire of his students to practice their art in a 'safer' fashion.  One that would allow people to hone their skills through testing them against other non compliant combatants in a format that would allow large masses of students to be able to compete with one another.    So to be clear, Kyokushin is the art.  Knockdown is the sport.   

This being said, there are Kyokushin dojos that have a heavy focus on Knockdown and allow many students to spend the majority of their time focused on Knockdown fighting.  As previously said, there is a spectrum in Kyokushin.  


Buka said:


> I have known and have friends who are black belts in Kyokushin Karate. Every single one of them loves punching to the face. I've never known one who does not.
> 
> The very first time I saw a Karate fighting competition was at Boston Arena (oldest multipurpose athletic building still in use in the word) It was a team competition, featuring a Kyokushin team. The matches were held in a boxing ring, the competitors wore no pads, no gloves.
> 
> ...


Yes we do.  Some of us even practice regularly .    It's only a little nuts but that is what makes the art truthful.   Everyone that steps onto the tatami to fight Knockdown understands that the truth of their training will become revealed when the Sushin declares 'hajime'.   You either did enough to get ready or you didn't.  There are no ties and the lessons on where you need to practice will be revealed that day or the next when the bruises begin to appear.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2021)

Steve said:


> It's a bit of a chicken/egg thing. Are people who are interested in being able to fight just inclined to be a little more... I don't know... gritty? Or does training in a style that actually, really teaches you to fight intrinsically promote grittiness?


My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.


I'd argue that it's much more the first. People are likely to want to train in a style that's compatible with them, and I've learned most of the population doesn't actually want to do anything that might result in pain. So most people that look for, and more importantly continue past the first few lessons, with hard contact are those that are "gritty" enough to be okay with the level of pain. Their toughness might increase, but they've got to have that base level of toughness to begin with.

The exception is those that have some sort of motivation that is more powerful than their desire to avoid pain (whether that's honor, revenge, avoiding other pain, fear, etc.). But IME most people, even those that think they've got that motivation, don't actually when it comes to training a hard contact style.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.


I personally dont mind doing that if A i can still live right after wards and B they prepare you right, the minority seems to do these.   

Live right means, you cant work if you mess up your leg, so you cant mess up your leg as routine as you have effectively killed yourself.  Prepare you right would be, they dont shove somone whos defanged into a cage and basically have them in the hospital for a month after. 

Actually, that might be the issue, they forget these are two realities in the modern world(and non modern world), you cant expect 100 from somone who has not done it before, nor can you expect them to effectively make themselves homeless doing a hobby, even people who need to learn these things cant go to work if they break their leg, or do their job right if they burn their body in training instead of work.    Unless your getting paid as you put yourself in the hospital, especially if the hospital bills are your resposniblity, its not sustainable economically or physically 

Hell i think teachers have had to shut schools for a peroid of time if no one could take over teaching and they couldnt teach for the duration due to injury.  Calculated risk and all that, martial arts are inherently risky but you can make them more or less so by what you do and how you do it. 

Probbly well known, but i think its forgotten about a lot, iniatations are meant to be one offs, and you make the concious choice to sacrifice something as a proof thing.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> I personally dont mind doing that if A i can still live right after wards and B they prepare you right, the minority seems to do these.


Both big claims to make if you've never tried a hard contact school to see if either are true.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Both big claims to make if you've never tried a hard contact school to see if either are true.


Hard contact is such where you use the same force as you would use to knock the person out no?   thats how i define it anyway.

As opposed to light which is pretty much tapping.

Addendum:  TKD tends to be hard contact in the sense, you will go full strength to mimick the sport, but you have a armour requirement usually so a economic bar.  I dont think theyd let you go full clout without the armour either, the only other caterory is step, light and contionous light.    as far as i recall.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'd argue that it's much more the first. People are likely to want to train in a style that's compatible with them, and I've learned most of the population doesn't actually want to do anything that might result in pain. So most people that look for, and more importantly continue past the first few lessons, with hard contact are those that are "gritty" enough to be okay with the level of pain. Their toughness might increase, but they've got to have that base level of toughness to begin with.
> 
> The exception is those that have some sort of motivation that is more powerful than their desire to avoid pain (whether that's honor, revenge, avoiding other pain, fear, etc.). But IME most people, even those that think they've got that motivation, don't actually when it comes to training a hard contact style.


Agreed. Perhaps I was too subtle in including that by way of shifting my wording. Tough folks are more likely drawn to *hard contact*, and *any signiificant contact* builds toughness. So folks who choose contact (but not so much hard contact) will toughen.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 31, 2021)

Besides jab and cross, does Karate have hook, uppercut, and overhand? Also does the concept of "1 step multiple punches" exist in Karate?

IMO, some TMA striking skill are just too linear without 3 dimensional striking. If one always trains 2 dimensional linear punches, he may not feel comfortable to deal with 3 dimensional punches such as jab/cross, hook, uppercut, overhand.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> Hard contact is such where you use the same force as you would use to knock the person out no?   thats how i define it anyway.
> 
> As opposed to light which is pretty much tapping.


Yes. Have you trained in a dojo that offers this? If not, your claims about what happens in those dojos is off base.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Besides jab and cross, does Karate have hook, uppercut, and overhand? Also does the concept of "1 step multiple punches" exist in Karate?
> 
> IMO, some TMA striking skill are just too linear without 3 dimensional striking. If one always trains 2 dimensional linear punches, he may not feel comfortable to deal with 3 dimensional punches such as jab/cross, hook, uppercut, overhand.


My experience with Karate folks is that...it depends. It depends upon which style, and who the instructor is. Shotokan seems less likely to have those round punches - they really like those angles. I think almost any school would have something about mixing up the footwork and punches to different rhythms, rather than just the punch-step drills that are in the kata.


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## drop bear (Jul 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yes. Have you trained in a dojo that offers this? If not, your claims about what happens in those dojos is off base.



That is an incorrect assumption. And you are attacking the poster not the post 

There is either evidence for it or there isn't.

So for example if I suggested a kudo grading sparring is hard contact. I don't have to have done it. I just have to find a video of it.






Now because I know kudo guys and I know how they spar. But that doesn't make my evidence more evidency than his. It just means I might know better places to look.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> That is an incorrect assumption. And you are attacking the poster not the post


Attacking may be the wrong word. But yes, I am focusing on the poster's experiences. He is making a claim. Which he cannot validate as he has not had any experience with hard contact martial arts. And he is not claiming what is/isn't hard contact, or what styles do/don't do hard contact. He is claiming that A) hard contact impacts his ability to function afterwards (presumably in terms of being sore), and B) per his words prepare you right, meaning not hospitalizing you. Youtube videos don't really go into that, so the only way for him to validate his claims is to have done those things. Which he has not, has no intention to do, and has no intention to do even basic research about, while making his claims. 

Also, there is a point to focusing on a poster's points, rather than the poster. But when the poster continuously makes claims on a variety of topics, never providing any evidence of any of it and always backtracking his points, it seems pretty pointless to actually address his points themselves. Essentially the same as arguing with a five year old about economics-you can do so, but it's an exercise in futility.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.





Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'd argue that it's much more the first. People are likely to want to train in a style that's compatible with them, and I've learned most of the population doesn't actually want to do anything that might result in pain. So most people that look for, and more importantly continue past the first few lessons, with hard contact are those that are "gritty" enough to be okay with the level of pain. Their toughness might increase, but they've got to have that base level of toughness to begin with.
> 
> The exception is those that have some sort of motivation that is more powerful than their desire to avoid pain (whether that's honor, revenge, avoiding other pain, fear, etc.). But IME most people, even those that think they've got that motivation, don't actually when it comes to training a hard contact style.


I’ll offer my own experience here as it seems relevant.

When I started martial arts training, I was uncoordinated, unathletic, and very timid about physical contact and getting hit. I literally could not hold my own in a pillow fight.

The first martial art that I practiced seriously for a significant length of time was Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (or ”ninjutsu“ as it was marketed in those days). We didn’t do real sparring, but even the choreographed, compliant technique drills involved physical contact and the experience of seeing someone punching or kicking at me (even if I generally wasn’t actually getting hit hard). Every so often we’d get hit or thrown a little harder than expected and I got used to that. The process gradually desensitized me to contact to the point where I could do some light sparring with friends who did other arts and not mind if I occasionally got accidentally bopped a little harder than I was used to.

Next I spent some time in the SCA and participated in their version of heavy weapons fighting. This was a significant step up in contact intensity, but there were some mitigating factors. We wore armor and heavy helmets, which meant that I experienced head hits mostly as a loud noise and hits elsewhere generally didn’t produce anything worse than a bruise. In addition, the rules meant that we didn’t have to stand up to continuous damage. One clean hit to an arm or leg meant that limb was out of commission. One clean hit to the head or body meant that you were “dead” and and lost the match. Still, I got used to getting hit harder than I had been in the Bujinkan, and I got more experience with the mental pressure of someone trying to hit me hard in non-compliant sparring.

After a while I moved on to Muay Thai and jiu-jitsu (first a Danzan Ryu spinoff and then BJJ). I got a fairly easy introduction to Muay Thai, because my instructor was focused on building up non-fighters rather than running a serious fight gym. That meant he eased me in to hard sparring gradually rather than throwing me in the deep end. Even so, it took me a while to adapt. My first time holding the Thai pads, I had an old pair of worn out pads and an experienced training partner who could kick hard. My forearms hurt so much from holding the pads for him that I had to grit my teeth to keep from crying.

Gradually I adjusted to that and started training with higher levels of contact and tougher opponents. I’ve competed in kickboxing, SCA, Judo, BJJ, Sumo, and HEMA. I’ve sparred professional fighters (at moderate contact levels for the most part). I’ve been knocked down, I’ve been knocked out, I’ve had broken bones and dislocations and stitches, I’ve been twisted into knots, and I’ve had countless bruises, contusions, and strains.

These days I have a strong preference for training in arts which involve sparring with a significant degree of contact. I do make allowances for the fact that I’m 57 years old, don’t heal as fast as I used to, and I don’t want to risk excessive head trauma. (So if I spar professional fighters these days, I make sure it’s guys that I can trust to maintain control and not give me a concussion or put me in the ER.)

The me of 40 years ago would be terrified to do the training I do now. If you tossed that 17 year old version of myself into my current sparring sessions, he would panic and likely quit.

So I think that Gerry is right when he says the process works both ways. Tougher people are attracted to tougher training but tougher training does build tougher people. Sometimes the ramp up needs to be more gradual. Not everyone is ready to jump into full contact from the start, but I think that most people can get there eventually, given encouragement, an appropriate path for progression, and a passion for learning and improving in the martial arts.


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## drop bear (Jul 31, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> think that most people can get there eventually, given encouragement, an appropriate path for progression, and a passion for learning and improving in the martial arts.



This. Pretty much.

We expect these full contact fighters to be made of different stuff. And they tend not to be.

The wimp to warrior style programs are the biggest eye opening examples of what your average person can do.






That and Spartan races. It was this belief for ages that female soldiers couldn't obstacle courses. Meanwhile soccer mums do Spartan races just for the hell of it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> We expect these full contact fighters to be made of different stuff. And they tend not to be.


I’d say the difference lies in how much of a ramp up that a given individual needs to get to that level. Some people come in really tough on day one*, are prepared for a steep path of progression, and even enjoy drill sergeant style motivation. Other people need to start out at an easier level, progress more gradually, and respond more to a positive style of encouragement. Doesn’t mean they can’t get to the same place, it just takes longer.

*(I don’t claim to know how much of that starting level of toughness is due to genetics vs prior life experience. I just know that different people walk in with vastly different levels of it at the start of their training.)


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yes. Have you trained in a dojo that offers this? If not, your claims about what happens in those dojos is off base.


Yes.    

If we dont use the term "sparring", it means you are actively trying to injure each other and/or have a higher risk due to not pulling punches of injury than normal.    Hell even if we use sparring, its probbly true, the risk of injury will go up.
(nothing about that statement changes if i answered yes or no to the first question)


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> We expect these full contact fighters to be made of different stuff. And they tend not to be.


Isnt there a running list of people having legiitmate brain damage and other issues from doing boxing as a proffesion for 10-30 years?    at least in the knockout heavy weight classes.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> Hard contact is such where you use the same force as you would use to knock the person out no? thats how i define it anyway.
> 
> As opposed to light which is pretty much tapping


There’s a lot of gradation between those two extremes. No contact, touch contact, light contact, medium contact, hard contact, full contact. Those labels can also vary according to an individual’s experience and conditioning. One man’s medium contact might be another man’s light contact or a different man’s hard contact. If you define “full contact“ as “hitting as hard as you are able”, then a beginner’s “full contact” might be equivalent to a professional’s medium contact.

For most people, “hard contact“ doesn’t indicate absolute full power or an attempt to knock out your sparring partner. It’s more like letting your strikes go freely with good body mechanics, but without putting that extra oomph on them to actually finish off your partner, especially if you see that you’re about to land a clean strike on a particularly vulnerable target. That’s just my experience, of course, and as I’ve noted there is a wide range of possible contact levels and how people will label them.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> Yes.
> 
> If we dont use the term "sparring", it means you are actively trying to injure each other and/or have a higher risk due to not pulling punches of injury than normal.    Hell even if we use sparring, its probbly true, the risk of injury will go up.
> (nothing about that statement changes if i answered yes or no to the first question)


Have you trained somewhere new in the last 6 months? The last you indicated was training as a kid in TKD. I believe one of your complaints about that was the lack of hard contact sparring.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There’s a lot of gradation between those two extremes. No contact, touch contact, light contact, medium contact, hard contact, full contact. Those labels can also vary according to an individual’s experience and conditioning. One man’s medium contact might be another man’s light contact or a different man’s hard contact. If you define “full contact“ as “hitting as hard as you are able”, then a beginner’s “full contact” might be equivalent to a professional’s medium contact.
> 
> For most people, “hard contact“ doesn’t indicate absolute full power or an attempt to knock out your sparring partner. It’s more like letting your strikes go freely with good body mechanics, but without putting that extra oomph on them to actually finish off your partner, especially if you see that you’re about to land a clean strike on a particularly vulnerable target. That’s just my experience, of course, and as I’ve noted there is a wide range of possible contact levels and how people will label them.



I have mentioned such before and am aware.   Given the fact id probbly not get a worthy enough reply to bother to go into that much depth i decided to avoid it.  (or my usual tangent explinations)

Although, given its you, i will entertain such here.

the ones as far as i recall my TKD (in school) were step sparring, parternered drills, light and heavy[sparring].  (heavy being with armour so not pulling punches)    and as far as i witnessed as far as i can recall.   So with that, and usig TKD as the base, there was no need to really mention the others, i am aware of their existance.   (and i am aware any ruleset can exist)

The definition i asked for before i gave my reply, if hard contact was to mean "fighting like in  a actual fight" or not, id argue and say you cannot truely do hard contact sparring as its not really sparring.   there is line a where it goes from to practise and learn to hurt and best the other person.

Dont know how to edit the above to make sense, i meant "thats why i asked for a definition" before i gave my reply, and the definition was such.  (as far as i could tell, thats my presumption for hard contact defult)

Its not really a experince marker to me, just intent.     Anyone who does combat sports and wants to compete probbly has done a mock match once or twice, just to at least get used to somone trying to knock them out once.   thats obviously a diffrent game to normal sparring.

I could gladly argue in conversations if you want.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> Isnt there a running list of people having legiitmate brain damage and other issues from doing boxing as a proffesion for 10-30 years?    at least in the knockout heavy weight classes.


Yep, long term participation in full contact sports which involve impact to the head (boxing, kickboxing, MMA, American football, etc) absolutely has a significant chance of causing long term brain damage - especially if you keep going after multiple concussions, which is not uncommon for boxers.

That doesn’t mean that an average individual can’t develop the mental and physical toughness to participate in these sports. It just means that that they if they do they should understand the health risks of doing so long term and the warning signs of when they should stop competing if they want to preserve their brain cells. (They can still train with a reasonable degree of contact,  but there’s a time to put aside full contact competition if you want to keep a healthy brain.)


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Have you trained somewhere new in the last 6 months? The last you indicated was training as a kid in TKD. I believe one of your complaints about that was the lack of hard contact sparring.


Writ out a nice comment to that before i realised it was a strawman and had no actual relivency to the orignal point raised.    Good try though.

Attendy in the last 6 months is irrelivent, attendence in the past is only nominally relivent, and my personal opionon on TKD is definiately irrelivent

@Tony Dismukes   Case and point as to why i didnt bother.


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## Steve (Jul 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.


Think you missed the point.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> Writ out a nice comment to that before i realised it was a strawman and had no actual relivency to the orignal point raised.    Good try though.
> 
> Attendy in the last 6 months is irrelivent, attendence in the past is only nominally relivent, and my personal opionon on TKD is definiately irrelivent
> 
> @Tony Dismukes   Case and point as to why i didnt bother.


The point wasn't the last 6 months. It's that I know your history up until then, and it doesn't include the full contact your claiming; since your only actual training is TKD and from your opinion on TKD it wasn't full contact. I was just checking to see if the gap of the last 6 months changed that experience for what you are claiming knowledge of.


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> Isnt there a running list of people having legiitmate brain damage and other issues from doing boxing as a proffesion for 10-30 years?    at least in the knockout heavy weight classes.



Probably.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 1, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The point wasn't the last 6 months. It's that I know your history up until then, and it doesn't include the full contact your claiming; since your only actual training is TKD and from your opinion on TKD it wasn't full contact. I was just checking to see if the gap of the last 6 months changed that experience for what you are claiming knowledge of.


So fallacies? (including strawman) nice of you to admit it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> So fallacies? (including strawman) nice of you to admit it.


No strawman. I'm not arguing against a distorted version of you. I'm referring directly to you, though it is interesting to note that you think someone with your experiences, making the claims you are, is a strawman...


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 1, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> No strawman. I'm not arguing against a distorted version of you. I'm referring directly to you, though it is interesting to note that you think someone with your experiences, making the claims you are, is a strawman...


See previous post(s)


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2021)

Steve said:


> Think you missed the point.


Entirely possible.


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## Tez3 (Aug 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Besides jab and cross, does Karate have hook, uppercut, and overhand? Also does the concept of "1 step multiple punches" exist in Karate?
> 
> IMO, some TMA striking skill are just too linear without 3 dimensional striking. If one always trains 2 dimensional linear punches, he may not feel comfortable to deal with 3 dimensional punches such as jab/cross, hook, uppercut, overhand.



Yes, karate has those and more.


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## drop bear (Aug 2, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Attacking may be the wrong word. But yes, I am focusing on the poster's experiences. He is making a claim. Which he cannot validate as he has not had any experience with hard contact martial arts. And he is not claiming what is/isn't hard contact, or what styles do/don't do hard contact. He is claiming that A) hard contact impacts his ability to function afterwards (presumably in terms of being sore), and B) per his words prepare you right, meaning not hospitalizing you. Youtube videos don't really go into that, so the only way for him to validate his claims is to have done those things. Which he has not, has no intention to do, and has no intention to do even basic research about, while making his claims.
> 
> Also, there is a point to focusing on a poster's points, rather than the poster. But when the poster continuously makes claims on a variety of topics, never providing any evidence of any of it and always backtracking his points, it seems pretty pointless to actually address his points themselves. Essentially the same as arguing with a five year old about economics-you can do so, but it's an exercise in futility.



Sort of. A five year old isn't automatically wrong about economics because he is five. 

Rat isn't wrong because he hasn't sparred hard. He is wrong because he is wrong.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 2, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Sort of. A five year old isn't automatically wrong about economics because he is five.
> 
> Rat isn't wrong because he hasn't sparred hard. He is wrong because he is wrong.


The reply was fallicious and a strawman, the logs are there i have stated my case.    I am washing my hands of the affair, and you should probbly try to as well.  it serves no purpose but to posion the well. 

Just going to note the notion that you need any qulficiation, or needed to be punched in the face to know the effects of it, or know the pros and cons of such is just completely ludicrious as well.   You dont have to be shot or have a fancy degree to know bleeding hole bad, and missile proppelled at speed can equal death and does equal maiment. 

i think the reply you quoted also rests my case it was fallcious from the start, and i correctly called it.


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