# Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"



## Tgace (Jun 16, 2005)

Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"

OK..who are the diehard believers here?


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## michaeledward (Jun 16, 2005)

Well, acupuncture is certainly very comfortable and relaxing. Just being forced to lie still for 45 minutes is very, very refreshing.


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## Drac (Jun 16, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"
> 
> OK..who are the diehard believers here?


Me for one.Screwed my neck muscles up once putting my barbell back in the squat rack, hey it happens..Tried the heating pad and rubs but nothing worked..30 some minutes with the acupuncturist and I was good to go..


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## Floating Egg (Jun 16, 2005)

> Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"
> 
> OK..who are the diehard believers here?


Interesting question and link. Do you want those that don't believe to contribute as well? Is this an attempt at opening a debate?


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## Tgace (Jun 16, 2005)

Sure...any opinion is welcome. Personaly I think its placebo....


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## Gemini (Jun 16, 2005)

Three years ago, I developed tendonitis in both shoulders. After going through my usual failsafes of physical therapy and/or the sports medicine doctor, I was unable to get rid of it. Being out of ideas, I tried acupuncture and though it took several visits, he got 'er done.


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## Floating Egg (Jun 16, 2005)

> Sure...any opinion is welcome. Personaly I think its placebo....


Yes, I think the results of various studies have been less than convincing in proving the effectiveness of acupuncture, though those who claim to have experienced relief will not be swayed by findings that challenge what they believe. Telling them that what they've experienced isn't real is almost like attacking who they are.


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## Tgace (Jun 16, 2005)

I think psychologically its "effective" enough to have survived all these years, but if it were physically effective, it would be much more widespread than it currently is. IMHO.


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## Flatlander (Jun 16, 2005)

So the question becomes, which is more important?  Results, or medical explainability?  (pretty sure I just made that word up)


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## BruceCalkins (Jun 16, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"
> 
> OK..who are the diehard believers here?


Accupructure & Accupressure:  I truly believe. I studies Massage Therapy at a Local Collage and worked with Accupressure and Shiatsu. I worked with the instructor that was certified in Accupuncture.. The things it healed were outstanding...

Qigong & Chinese Med...: 100%. I have been working with Chi energy for most of the time I have been in the arts. And Chinese Meds.... Most of the things we find in todays medical books have background in Chinese Medicine. From Asprine to Cancer treatments. Many things that the FDA are just allowing have been done in China for 100 years.


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## Tgace (Jun 16, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> So the question becomes, which is more important? Results, or medical explainability? (pretty sure I just made that word up)


I think it depends on what the "results" are. Pain management is a large chunck psychological so it just may help there. If you are depending on it to cure cancer...I think you will be sadly disappointed.


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2005)

Acupuncture--definitely, for some things.

Qi Gong--not convinced.

TCM--helpful for some things, but I'll still take allopathy for most things.


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## Gemini (Jun 16, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> So the question becomes, which is more important? Results, or medical explainability? (pretty sure I just made that word up)


 IMO, the end result. It could have been sugar pills for all I care. The end result was the same. I believed in what always worked for me before. It didn't work. I tried a new way, even though I didn't really believe, he stuck pins in me, pain went away.

  Oh and congratulations on your new word! It's a dandy. Is it your first?


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## Floating Egg (Jun 16, 2005)

> IMO, the end result. It could have been sugar pills for all I care. The end result was the same. I believed in what always worked for me before. It didn't work. I tried a new way, even though I didn't really believe, he stuck pins in me, pain went away.


Can you see any potential dangers with that line of thinking?


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## Don Roley (Jun 17, 2005)

BruceCalkins said:
			
		

> Accupructure & Accupressure:  I truly believe. I studies Massage Therapy at a Local Collage and worked with Accupressure and Shiatsu. I worked with the instructor that was certified in Accupuncture.. The things it healed were outstanding...
> 
> Qigong & Chinese Med...: 100%. I have been working with Chi energy for most of the time I have been in the arts. And Chinese Meds.... Most of the things we find in todays medical books have background in Chinese Medicine. From Asprine to Cancer treatments. Many things that the FDA are just allowing have been done in China for 100 years.



Bruce, after all the lies you have spread, why do you think people should take your word now?

Realize that you just do not have the credibility that other people here do because you have have been caught lying and they have not. If you keep that in mind, there will be a lot less sparks flying around.

To others, I have said what many of you have wanted to, there is no reason to jump up and down on Bruce now.


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## Gemini (Jun 17, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> Can you see any potential dangers with that line of thinking?


Not at all. If what usually works doesn't, try something new. Please clarify what you mean.

Regards,


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## BruceCalkins (Jun 17, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Bruce, after all the lies you have spread, why do you think people should take your word now?
> 
> Realize that you just do not have the credibility that other people here do because you have have been caught lying and they have not. If you keep that in mind, there will be a lot less sparks flying around.
> 
> To others, I have said what many of you have wanted to, there is no reason to jump up and down on Bruce now.


I have gotten to the point that I dont care if people believe me or not. I have never lied or added to the truth, so the closed minded people can think what they want. They asked for a Video of My Lu Ling Sao.. I offered one with no tricks and it was SITLL not believed... In this forum unless you study the style someone likes or believe in the history the way someone else likes you have no knowledge.. Well... I don't Believe in God, I Don't Believe in the Devil, I do Believe in Lu Ling Sao, I do Believe in Mixed MArtial Arts and the ability of someone to Build their own art in America with out the help of the JAPANESE. I do believe that In about 525 B.C. an Indian Monk, *Bodhidharma* or *Ta-Mo* as the Chinese called him. Came to the Songshan Shaolin Monastery in the Kingdom of Wei. Here he taught the precepts of *Zen*[font=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow] as well as the skills of [/font]*[font=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Temple Boxing[/font]* and this is the history of the Bigining of Martial Arts. and no one on this forum can or will prove me wrong. I have trained for many years and worked with too many great men and women to worry about being judged by you or anyone else in this forum. If you like what I have to say... Great if Not It Is MY OPINION and I have the right to it without being bashed just like you do. I would never dishonor you by bashing one of your posts and telling people that thats not right... It is your Right to Post your Opinion. So Just understand that I am not Upset with you. I just pitty the closed minded and the ones that have nothing but Doubt in their minds. And the small people that take fun of Bashing and judgeing something they have no knowledge of... You have never studied Lu Ling Sao... How can you say it is fake... You have never practiced Iron Shirt... How can you say it is fake... Just on your word... Sorry my friend.. But that is no longer good enough to up set me. Have a good life in the arts and Post freely. Enjoy life don't Bash it.


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## Don Roley (Jun 17, 2005)

BruceCalkins said:
			
		

> I have never lied or added to the truth,



Yes, you did lie.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=402706#post402706

Looking at the post above, you shoud realize that people are just going to treat you like you are making other things up unless you prove what you say.

So stop disrupting the boards by trying to claim to be more than you are. And certainly do not try to deny the truth.

Looking at the rest of your post, I do not see much hope for your rehabilitaion. It would save us all a lot of problems if you merely admited your lies, promised never to do so again, apologized for all the troubles you ahve caused and then stuck to only those things that you can and are willing to prove. And what you have written in this thread will probably not be provable for some strange reason.   

Again, we do not want disruptions on this forum. You lied, people are going to treat you like a liar so the best way to achieve harmony around here is to stick to provable facts.


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## Tgace (Jun 17, 2005)

http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html


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## Tgace (Jun 17, 2005)

I guess, in the end, I would say "if it works for you (as in pain relief) go for it". However I would'nt recommend forgoing modern treatment of signifigant illness in favor of accupuncture. And above all dont get rooked into spending more money on accupuncture than you would on conventional treatment.


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## The Kai (Jun 17, 2005)

I think that you need to think about.  When people relied on Folkloric medicine what was the average lifespan 50 years old?


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## Simon Curran (Jun 17, 2005)

Although it doesn't entirely count as TCM, I have repeatedly had better results from chiropractors / sports massage experts than with western medicine, it has been my _personal_ experience that western medicine is only interested in treating the symptom not the route cause.
 Describe that cause however you want (bad chi/disease, whatever) I personally have experienced better results with the _holistic_ approach, whereby in the short term it may mean more pain, but in the long term it means relief.
 Just an opinion based upon personal experience, take it as you will


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## BruceCalkins (Jun 17, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Yes, you did lie.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=402706#post402706
> 
> ...


First I never lied... After Bob posted the thing he did. I spoke to Mr. Koch in person and he said that Bob Must have misunderstood him and that II did teach with him and eventhough I am not a current full time instructor in the Kenpo School. I do teach there and am welcome anytime. You just put too many twists to make stuff sound good for you. I have not and never will Lie about my training or my abilities. Just because you don't believe them... I DON"T CARE... A Comment from Japan is not going to get me too upset. If you were in the USA I would invite you to meet me in person so we could talk and work out together then you could see that I am not a fake. I am not making a challange just to stop anyting there. I am talking about two Martial Artist Sharing Knowledge.
But I do ask with respect. You have no way to prove that I am not telling the full truth so please stopp making it out like you do.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 17, 2005)

Bruce, what I heard was what I posted. I stand by my statement.

*Note:*
 Now, gentlemen, the discussion here is "Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"".
 Not "The Fact & Fiction of Bruce".  Theres a place for that, it's not here.
 Take it there. 
 Clear?


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## Adept (Jun 21, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Sure...any opinion is welcome. Personaly I think its placebo....


 I remember reading about a trial where the test group were given 'acupuncture' that was really just an acupuncturist randomly jabbing needles into their bodies with no regard to traditional placement. The test group reported as much relief as the control group, who recieved actual acupuncture.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jun 21, 2005)

thats funny........because i read about the same sort of study....and the exact opposite was reported. i also doubt that an acupuncturist was randomly "jabbing" people, more likely that they were needling points that wouldnt be used in an efficacious treatment of said disorder. i am currently searching through all my crud so that i can post the info. the problem with studying this stuff is that the people doing the study were simply asking, "does it work or not?"
does it work for what.....does it work for who?
in western medicine there are drugs that work on some people and not on others.......every person may be the same as a whole.....but there are many small differences. 
anyone every have a shiatsu treatment by a therapist that studied real japanese shiatsu from the japan shiatsu college? much different than someone that studies zen shiatsu or one of the other derivatives that mixes the therapy with chinese medicine.
the trend these days seems to be western doctors accepting alternative, complimentary or holistic therapies as part of the care for their patients. 
the witch hunt for getting rid of the D.O.M.'s, O.M.D's, TCM practitioners, and others is over.


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## TonyM. (Jun 22, 2005)

This is an interesting read.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/...lth/4493011.stm


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## TonyM. (Jun 22, 2005)

Sorry, the link doesn't work any more.
It was about a study that used three groups of migraine sufferers. One group of one hundred they used blunt needles on and didn't break the skin. The next group of one hundred they used real needles on, but didn't use real accupunture points. The final group of one hundred got the real thing. The end result was that the first two groups got some relief, (placebo effect) and the third group got more.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jun 22, 2005)

the thing about pain is that it can indeed be controlled psychologically, either to heighten or dull the pain. if someone is anticipating something painful to a certain area of the body, your mind tends to grease up the neural pathways involved heightening the sensation. the opposite is also true, a person can relax themselves and almost detach themselves from it.
when a person is receiving any kind of treatment for an ailment, a positive attitude definitely helps speed up the healing process. im sure many people out there have met someone who suffers from chronic pain and illness who are just plain old miserable people, that dont want to get well, or never believe that what they are doing is going to help them get well. i think this is one of the reasons for the explosion of use in the psychotropic drug market.
your body is its own greatest healer.....sometimes it just needs a little push in the right direction.


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## bujinclergy (Jun 28, 2005)

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/


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## BlackCatBonz (Jun 28, 2005)

at one point in time research was done to produce results that were less than favourable to branches of alternative or complimetary medicine.
it was simply done by not really following proper scientific procedure. the allopathic  medical community did not want patients to be responsible for their own care because this would mean lost revenues.
yes there are people out there that sell snake oil......but there are also legitimate complimentary practices that help millions of people each year that might be considered unorthodox by western medical standards. 
today many doctors are getting patients to get proactive and responsible about their health, rather than the old method of looking after a problem once it happens.


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