# Hapkido cross training?



## OrangeLeopard (May 4, 2005)

Hi, i am a kempo student like many on this forum and wanted to start Hapkido over the summer  in a local school. I have been looking for another martial art that would compliment my training in kempo and grappling and just wanted your input to see if this is a good idea or if you think there are other martial arts that would better suit my already existing knowledge. 
Just additional info that you may need to help answer my question: I am a blue belt in kempo, moderatley flexible (can kick about up to my head), pretty strong, have basic grappling concepts and submission techniques from Bjj. 

Thanks!


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## zac_duncan (May 4, 2005)

Hapkido can be a very good art to cross train in. I think if you go to a good school and find a good instructor, you'll get a lot out of it.

One thing of note though, at your relatively early stage in the Kempo learning processs you might encounter some "clash" between what your HKD instructor and your Kempo instructor might teach. Without a deep foundation in one or the other, you might have trouble reconciling the differences. Just a thought. Might not even be relevant.


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## Mike-IHF (May 5, 2005)

Orange Leopard,

I would love to give you my advise, But first I have to ask one question. Why do you want to cross train? now I will give you my advise.

I am very much a traditionalist when it comes to martial arts. I believe that no matter what art you study, if you master it it will give you all you need to defend yourself against any attack. However with that said, alot of people that ask me about cross training I know deep down that the main reason they want to cross train is because what they are currently studying is lacking something, otherwise they would be comfortable enough in that art not to want to cross train. If that's the case, cross training is not the answer. If that's the case they need to find one art that they feel is complete. Also alot of people that talk about cross training(not directing this at you), are usually low rank in there current art. This in my opinion is bad. They have not even learned the majority of the art at that point. In most traditional arts , your real training does not even start until after 1st degree.

Now for my thoughts. I don't believe in cross training for different reasons. One is that whether you study Aikido, Kempo, Hapkido. You will notice they all say Do at the end. Meaning way. Not one way today, and one way tomorrow. It means one way. My GM said once. "If your at a fork in the road and you can't make up your mind which way to go, than your just standing still". Meaning that choose one path and follow that path for the rest of your life if able.  So basically I think you should ask yourself exactly why you want to cross train? and in the long run how you think it will benefit you? This post is just my opinion. I look forward to talking with you again. Thanks.


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## hardheadjarhead (May 5, 2005)

Orangeleopard,

Let me offer this:

Not all who profess cross training are low in rank, nor inexperienced in the arts.

No art is "complete" insofar as self-defense is concerned (though some are very well rounded), nor will training to the point of mastery in any one art guarantee you success in such conflict.   The notion that an art is complete is often propogated as a marketing tool or professed by those who feel the need to arrogate themselves via their system.

The idea that a person must first become proficient in one system before exploring another is also false.  I've found that the human brain is more than capable of adapting and integrating various methods without causing some sort of cognitive dissonance.  If there is any cognitive dissonance in cross training, it is in those neophobes who condemn it.  Masters throughout history have cross trained.  Their repuation alone doesn't limit them this right nor does it confer to them any particular capacity for handling such complexity in training.  If they can do it, we can do it.

Try the Hapkido out.  If you don't like it, it might be the instructor's inability.  You might consider investigating another instructor before totally discarding the art.  


Regards,


Steve


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## Mike-IHF (May 5, 2005)

Dear Steve,

I wanted to clarify a few things that you addressed towards my post. When I mentioned that the person does not feel the art he is studying is complete, I did not mean that there is such thing as a complete art. I'm saying that he might feel more complete or (well rounded) in one art than another. Also I was just making a point that if he feels the need to cross train, alot of times this is a sign that what he is currently studying is NOT well rounded. Which in my opinion, If someone feels that way, whats the point of continueing to train in that art?

Masters throughout history have cross trained, your right. But let's disect that a little. Let's take the era of the Samurai for instense. Yes alot of these people crossed trained, but what the crossed trained in were just variations of the same mother art. As far as weapons most of them crossed trained yes, but they crossed trained in different forms of the same art. There are probably 100's of different forms of Kenjutsu out there, but it is still Kenjutsu. The basis is not that different. Or as far as open hand, yes they crossed trained, but usually they were just different variations of Jujutsu. Jujutsu being the main body. It's not like they were training in Aikijujutsu, and then started learning Kung Fu. See my point?

Alot of people now adays always say the same defense when it comes to cross training in other arts. But this is not the same as what went on in the history you bring up. Cross trining in different variations of the same mother art, is completely different than studying two completely different arts all together. This was the point I was trying to make.

Gaining mastery in one art will not garantee you success in a conflict
	
	



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 nor will knowing very little from 20 martial arts.


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## zac_duncan (May 5, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> The idea that a person must first become proficient in one system before exploring another is also false. I've found that the human brain is more than capable of adapting and integrating various methods without causing some sort of cognitive dissonance.


First, I have to say, I think you're right, mostly.

But my point about maybe waiting a bit has some merit. It might not be entirely correct, but I think it's worth thinking about: 

Firstly, the styles he's looking to cross-train in are mostly stand-up fighting styles that approach fighting in fundamentally different ways. That is not a big deal if you understand why one art apporaches a situation one way and why another art appoaches it differently. If you understand the underlying ideas of the art then, no, there will be no cognitive dissonance. If you don't there will be and you're likely to either get confused or to simply throw away good information because of the clash. This is not a rule certainly, but it's worth thinking about.

For my part, I've done a good amount of cross-training with kickboxers and wrestlers. Kickboxing primarily to help get a feel for timing, distance and what it's like to be hit hard and to hit hard right back and also for the conditioning work. The wrestling, primarily because it's fun.  

I'm not against cross-training, I just think you should know enough of your base art to know where you feel weak and then supplement it from there.


Good luck in your training, 
-zac


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## OrangeLeopard (May 6, 2005)

I feel Kempo is complete to my needs. I want to cross train mainly because i want to explore other arts like Hapkido that approach stand up fighting in a different way for a.) a would knowledge of a different approach in case of a real possible encounter and b.) I love martial arts and want to expierence diverse methods of fighting, styles and instructors rather than just riding them off and setting myself in one direction. If i had the funds and time, I would try as many styles as a could and integrate my knowledge of fighting based on my needs. My instructor who teaches Kempo also shows us bjj and judo techniques and integrates TKD kicks into certain parts of what he teaches to enhance a technique or show us different ways of adressing a situation rather than just demanding Kempo be preformed down to the letter in every circumstance.


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## zac_duncan (May 6, 2005)

Then I say go for it. You could find that the two compliment each other beautifully, or it might just not work. 

Regardless, in my thoroughly biased opinion, hapkido is worth looking into. I hope you can find a good school.


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## hardheadjarhead (May 6, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Masters throughout history have cross trained, your right. But let's disect that a little. Let's take the era of the Samurai for instense. Yes alot of these people crossed trained, but what the crossed trained in were just variations of the same mother art. As far as weapons most of them crossed trained yes, but they crossed trained in different forms of the same art. There are probably 100's of different forms of Kenjutsu out there, but it is still Kenjutsu. The basis is not that different. Or as far as open hand, yes they crossed trained, but usually they were just different variations of Jujutsu. Jujutsu being the main body. It's not like they were training in Aikijujutsu, and then started learning Kung Fu. See my point?



Ratti and Westbrook's "Secrets of the Samurai" disputes this, as do the works of other writers like Don Draeger.  The samurai trained in  kenjutsu of course, but also in various combinations of archery, jujitsu styles, spear methods, halberd...the list goes on.  

Shotokan master Kenneth Funakoshi (who taught my first martial arts class) trained in Judo and Kenpo.  I can't recall which Shotokan master it was...Miyazki perhaps (?)...that took up T'ai Chi.   

Ajarn Chai Sirisute, head of the Thai Boxing Association of America, holds high rank in Shorin Ryu karate.  

Jon Bluming from the Netherlands studied both Judo and Kyokushinkai.  And oh, goodness, did he make it functional.

Duck Lee, the GM who awarded my dan rankings in Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do, trained in those arts as well as Kum Do and Yudo.  Back in the 70's every Korean master I knew in Indiana had dan rankings in multiple arts.  Jong Woo Kim, Mil Gu Lee, Il Se Kim, Park Sung Jae, Choi Jyoon Pyu...ALL of them had/have multiple rankings in at least two arts.

Another noted Korean Hapkido master of that generation, He Young Kimm, also has master ranks in Yudo and Tae Kwon Do...as well as Kuk Sool Won.

Mike, the fact is that most of the older Korean masters cross trained (and likely the younger ones have as well), and this spirit of eclectism isn't unknown in Korea.  Martial arts training is compulsory in the military over there, and to achieve any significant rank one has to attain a black belt.  Korean Marines I talked to didn't blink when talking about the arts--note the plural--they studied in order to get higher enlisted or officer rank.  

Cross training happens...and I've found the only harm one incurs from it is the negative responses he receives from purists who deem it harmful.  And these purists do it for fear the student might abandon their art for the seductions of the other.   


Regards,


Steve


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## howard (May 8, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Ratti and Westbrook's "Secrets of the Samurai" disputes this, as do the works of other writers like Don Draeger. The samurai trained in kenjutsu of course, but also in various combinations of archery, jujitsu styles, spear methods, halberd...the list goes on.
> 
> Shotokan master Kenneth Funakoshi (who taught my first martial arts class) trained in Judo and Kenpo. I can't recall which Shotokan master it was...Miyazki perhaps (?)...that took up T'ai Chi.
> 
> ...


 Very nice post IMO.

 I have noting against cross-training.  But in my own experience, for what it's worth, I found it difficult... I originally started in the arts in Ji Do Kwan, and for a couple of years I trained in both Ji Do Kwan and Hapkido, before abandoning Ji Do Kwan to focus exclusively on Hapkido.  I found the two arts to be be very different in certain fundamental respects, particularly the use of stances (Ji Do Kwan uses numerous formal stances, particularly in forms, whereas our style of Hapkido uses none) and responses to attacks (Ji Do Kwan uses traditonal karate-based hard blocks, whereas the Hapkido I train in uses much softer redirections and evasions).  While I was doing both arts, I had to concentrate very carefully in each one to keep certain principles from the other coming into play.  But I know there are lots of people who cross-train successfully.


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## Paul B (May 8, 2005)

Do what you want. 

For myself,I have cross-trained..and gained some knowledge. Now...I love Hapkido and am going to "stick" with it. I am of a mind that there is more than enough material to keep me busy for quite a while.


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## traz (May 8, 2005)

I don't know much about Kempo, so I can't really say how well Hapkido might blend with it though.

However, it's my guess that if you're looking for an art to improve your grappling, there are other arts that would be better. However, if you're interested in Hapkido because it's an intriguing art, then by all means, try it out.

In general, my approach to cross training is to try and take 2 arts that don't have cross over...for instance, I'm doing Hapkido and BJJ, and the principles blend well, however I"d never do Hapkido and Karate, for instance.


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