# Second Intro -- Coming Out



## hapki68 (Jun 1, 2006)

Hap ki,

I just posted an intro about me a few days ago... but I left out the fact that I'm gay.  Before I spend any more time on this site chatting with people, I want to note that bit about me.  Also, I'm hoping to touch base with other gay guys out there who are into the martial arts.  

Fortunately for me, I live in a progressive area and have been welcomed by the straight guys in my class.  Sadly, not every area of the country is so enlightened.

So here's my question: what the best way for me to go about looking for other gay guys to chat with about their experiences?  What forum would be the best place to post a message?

P


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## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2006)

Hapki68 I for one do not care about your personal life just polite converstation about Martial Art and other things in general. I'm glad you are here and you are training for the right reasons
Terry


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## Flatlander (Jun 1, 2006)

Gee, you've got me.  I think that we've had or do have other gay people on this site, but I'm not certain.  However, that doesn't stop you from sharing your experiences here.  Who knows?  That might draw others in.  Best of luck!


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## Swordlady (Jun 1, 2006)

Hi again, Hapki.  Personally, it doesn't matter to me that you are gay.  Just as long as you are serious about your training.    I don't know how many other gay MA'ists have passed through MT, but someone else might.  Best of luck in your search!


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## Gemini (Jun 1, 2006)

There's no connection between the two. Not sure why you want to make one. Sexual orientation is sexual orientation. Martial arts are martial arts. You want to find a mate, go to a dating service. You want to talk martial arts, you're welcome here. Sexual orientaion wasn't a question when you signed up.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 1, 2006)

Hapki!  What's up?

Thanks for reminding me...I never mentioned that I was straight!

lol...it matters not, my friend.  I'm not aware that either of our preferences prevent us from being polite and efficient posters and martial artists


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## shesulsa (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> So here's my question: what the best way for me to go about looking for other gay guys to chat with about their experiences?  What forum would be the best place to post a message?



If you're talking about their experiences being accepted in martial arts venues, you might be breaking ground here inasmuch as actually being a member of the gay community, though we've talked about homosexuality in the martial arts before.

The place to discuss acceptance in the MA area would be General Martial Arts Talk.

To discuss acceptance in society in general, you might consider The Study.

Hapkido specific, the Hapkido forum.

Hope this helps.  If you have any questions on where to place threads, just holler.

Welcome and congratulations for coming out! :ultracool


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## Kreth (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> So here's my question: what the best way for me to go about looking for other gay guys to chat with about their experiences? What forum would be the best place to post a message?


If you're asking about other gay martial artists, you may want to post in The Study, as shesulsa mentioned. If you're looking for a gay forum, my friend Mr. Google says you should check out gay.com.


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## hapki68 (Jun 1, 2006)

Just to clarify a few things:

No, I'm not looking for a dating service (and that reference is offensive).  I'm not considering joining this site to chat about issues of importance to the gay community, like marriage or adoption, any more than I assume straight folks join to talk about day care or tax policy.  And I'm not interested in chatting with only gay men about hapkido.

My primary interest in this site is the martial arts.  Period.  And I don't apply a litmus test (race, religion, sex, etc) before I seek someone's advice on MA.   (Sadly, I think some people ARE bothered by the concept of gays and lesbians in their dojangs and do apply a test.)

I AM interested, however, in talking with other gay guys about their experiences in the MA world.  Not surprisingly, we have experiences that are unique to us, just as other groups do (like women), and this shouldn't be threatening.  For example, do other gay guys feel like they are the only ones practicing MA?  Have they come out to their fellow students in the dojang?  If so, was there a negative reaction from guys they'd be sparring with?  How did they handle it?  Did they consider leaving the MA?  Do they think the MA, as opposed to other sports, like baseball, have generally more or less accepting practioners?

The question should not be why I would want to chat with other gay guys about our experiences, but why the concept would bother anyone.  

I'm not sure which will disturb me more: learning that none of the many members of this well run site are openly gay, or that gays and lesbians have to pretend to be straight, including by ignoring sexual orientation altogether, to execute a round house or to be fully welcomed.  

Hap ki


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## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2006)

Hapki look at my thread I started and I'm sorry if anybody offended you, I'm sure it was not there intition at all.
Thank you for being so honest and up front.
Terry


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## hapki68 (Jun 1, 2006)

Thanks Terry, your post is much appreciated.  

As I mentioned to Shesulsa, I consider dishonesty (being in the closet) dishonorable and bigotry intolerable.  

<deep respectful bow>


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## matt.m (Jun 1, 2006)

You know I don't have one ounce of care in the world for someones sexual orientation.  Honestly, I only care if they do the following: Go to class, try their best, and if they are nice people.  I have worked with a lot of people on the civilian side that were gay.  Men and women, no boundary.  I even knew of a couple of gay people in the military while I was in the Marines.  I didn't make a big deal of it, I didn't care.  You sir are a dedicated hapkido practitioner, then you are in my club.  It is all good pal.

The thing is: People should be judged based on their personality and merit as a human being.  Period, end of story.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> Hap ki,
> 
> I just posted an intro about me a few days ago... but I left out the fact that I'm gay.  Before I spend any more time on this site chatting with people, I want to note that bit about me.  Also, I'm hoping to touch base with other gay guys out there who are into the martial arts.
> 
> ...



You're gay? So? What does that have to do with Martial Arts? Welcome to MT anyway hey? 

As far as a gay MA forum... umm dunno about those... I'm straight...


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## Jade Tigress (Jun 1, 2006)

It matters not. This is an MA board. There are many forums here where questions you have concerning sexual orientation and the martial arts can be addressed. Welcome again and enjoy the board. :asian:


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## Gemini (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> No, I'm not looking for a dating service (and that reference is offensive).


Since I assume that was aimed at me, let me just say no offense was intended. My apologies, hapki. My only point was that as a martial artist, you're welcome here. Nothing else matters.


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## Lisa (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> I AM interested, however, in talking with other gay guys about their experiences in the MA world.  Not surprisingly, we have experiences that are unique to us, just as other groups do (like women), and this shouldn't be threatening.  For example, do other gay guys feel like they are the only ones practicing MA?  Have they come out to their fellow students in the dojang?  If so, was there a negative reaction from guys they'd be sparring with?  How did they handle it?  Did they consider leaving the MA?  Do they think the MA, as opposed to other sports, like baseball, have generally more or less accepting practioners?
> 
> ...



Hap ki,

You bring out many good points.  I encourage you to start threads about your experiences.  I think we can all learn from them.


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## Stan (Jun 1, 2006)

As i said on the OTHER current thread about homosexuality, it is offensive to assume that most gay people want to pursue some gay agenda, or convert others to "the way of the gay"    While I believe that most people expressing the "who cares, just show up and train hard" sentiment are being sincere, there is a distinct "don't ask don't tell" element to that.  Meaning, that it's OK ("I guess") for a fellow student to be gay, as long as they hide it well enough as to virtually have no sexuality.  

To be clear, it wouldn't be OK in the dojo or most other public spaces for a gay or straight person to talk about sex acts or the orgy they're going to next weekend (NOT that homosexuals are more predisposed to do these things anyway!)  It would be OK to mention that one's significant other, whether of the same or opposite sex, cooked them a particularly delicious dinner last night.  I get annoyed when straight people go on and on about their spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend or kids.  I bring up my girlfriend from time to time after class, and would feel oppressed if I was censured for it, just like I would feel selfish and imposing if I brought her up all the time.

As Hapki68 said, homosexuals are a minority, and they may face special difficulties.  Just like women who participate in MT's women's forums aren't assumed to be less serious about their training, nor to be radical separatist feminists, we shouldn't make narrow assumptions about why a gay man would want to talk to other gay martial artists on a forum like this.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> (Sadly, I think some people ARE bothered by the concept of gays and lesbians in their dojangs and do apply a test.)



I think you could get away with sayin you KNOW some are 



> I AM interested, however, in talking with other gay guys about their experiences in the MA world.



Understandable, I imagine that can be a difficult pill to swallow at times, hope you got a good groupt that you train with.



> For example, do other gay guys feel like they are the only ones practicing MA?  Have they come out to their fellow students in the dojang?  If so, was there a negative reaction from guys they'd be sparring with?  How did they handle it?  Did they consider leaving the MA?  Do they think the MA, as opposed to other sports, like baseball, have generally more or less accepting practioners?



Interesting questions, care to share your take on this?  I imagine certain arts are more accepting then others, wrestling or BJJ clubs for example might  have more issues then a Tai Chi?




> I'm not sure which will disturb me more: learning that none of the many members of this well run site are openly gay, or that gays and lesbians have to pretend to be straight, including by ignoring sexual orientation altogether, to execute a round house or to be fully welcomed.



No need to hide, I think it just caught people off guard.  Not that someone is gay, but because most people don't mention there orientation in intro posts, so it seemed a little out of place.  But you're right, there are some unique issues there, and it's fully understandable to want to talk to others that might have had similar experiences.

I don't know if there are any other openly gay men on here, probably, but who knows.  But I imagine some might not want to discuss such things openly as well, good luck, and hopefully you're able to provide some insight into your experiences.


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## Kensai (Jun 1, 2006)

Stan said:
			
		

> As i said on the OTHER current thread about homosexuality, it is offensive to assume that most gay people want to pursue some gay agenda, or convert others to "the way of the gay"  *While I believe that most people expressing the "who cares, just show up and train hard" sentiment are being sincere, there is a distinct "don't ask don't tell" element to that.  Meaning, that it's OK ("I guess") for a fellow student to be gay, as long as they hide it well enough as to virtually have no sexuality*.
> 
> To be clear, it wouldn't be OK in the dojo or most other public spaces for a gay or straight person to talk about sex acts or the orgy they're going to next weekend (NOT that homosexuals are more predisposed to do these things anyway!)  It would be OK to mention that one's significant other, whether of the same or opposite sex, cooked them a particularly delicious dinner last night.  I get annoyed when straight people go on and on about their spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend or kids.  I bring up my girlfriend from time to time after class, and would feel oppressed if I was censured for it, just like I would feel selfish and imposing if I brought her up all the time.
> 
> As Hapki68 said, homosexuals are a minority, and they may face special difficulties.  Just like women who participate in MT's women's forums aren't assumed to be less serious about their training, nor to be radical separatist feminists, we shouldn't make narrow assumptions about why a gay man would want to talk to other gay martial artists on a forum like this.



But what are people _meant _to do? I don't go round asking people if they're straight or gay at my place, 1. because I don't care, and 2. because it's none of my business. It's almost like saying if you don't ask you're trying to brush "it" under the carpet, and if you do ask, you have a problem with homosexuality. As far as I'm concerned the _*only *_way I judge people is on their actions and merit, and maybe personality/sense of humour. If they _want _to tell me they're gay, fine, great, let's train. If a person happens to be gay and they don't want to tell me, fine, great, let's train. Why is there a distinction? I don't think any less of myself for not having asked someone if they're gay, or having asked them if they are, and I don't think any less of a person if they are gay/lesbian. I respect hapki's decision to inform people and to seek out intelligent discussion on MA in the gay community, I however don't expect people to hide their sexuality from me or anyone, either in a training environment, or in their professional lives, or personal lives, or anywhere for that matter. There can sometimes be a damned if you do and damned if you don't attitude in this circumstance.

Hapki, more power to your quest mate. Search on. Have fun. Enjoy this site, it's quality.

Oh, and please, *DON'T* anybody be offended by anything I've said, it wasn't meant to cause offence, and if you met me, you'd realise I'm faaaaar to laid back to argue with. :asian: And it is after all, just an opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2006)

Im heterosexual. big deal sexual orientation is not a martial arts topic and it matters not to me... just don't go bashin' CMA 

Welcome to MT


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## Kensai (Jun 1, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I&#8217;m heterosexual&#8230;. big deal&#8230; sexual orientation is not a martial arts topic and it matters not to me... *just don't go bashin' CMA*
> 
> Welcome to MT



:ultracool


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## hapki68 (Jun 1, 2006)

Thanks everyone for the very understanding posts.  They mean a lot to me.

Kensai...  No gay guy would expect you to ask him if he's gay.  He might like you to, but he wouldn't expect that.  The reason being gay becomes an issue (and all of us would like it to be a non-issue) is because when you train with people, you start developing relationships with them.  Inevitably, you start talking about family, vacation trips, etc.  Not being able to talk about your personal life becomes a huge impediment to that relationship and trust building exercise.  It's hard to tell whether your training partner will accept you if he knew you're gay... and it's hard to trust him until you know the answer.  Make sense?  (Thanks for bringing this issue up... I truly appreciate the positive sentiment you were conveying. <respectful bow>)

Again, thanks everyone for letting me clear the air.  Now... it's time to get back to reading and posting about MA.

<fighting stance>

Hapki68


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> Again, thanks everyone for letting me clear the air. Now... it's time to get back to reading and posting about MA.
> 
> <fighting stance>
> 
> Hapki68


 
Dude, just be decent and remember the words of The Johns (of TMBG fame):

_There's only one thing that I know how to do well
And I've often been told that you only can do
What you know how to do well
And that's be you,
Be what you're like,
Be like yourself,
And so I'm having a wonderful time...
_


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## Ceicei (Jun 1, 2006)

Hapki,

Welcome to MartialTalk!  :wavey:

There are others who are gay/lesbian who did sign up on MartialTalk and briefly discussed this openly.  I'm not sure where they are now (they left for various reasons), since they did provide very good insights on many different issues.  There may be more who haven't divulged their orientation.

I would hope that you will be able to stay longer.  We need more diversity with viewpoints.

- Ceicei


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 1, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> You know I don't have one ounce of care in the world for someones sexual orientation.  Honestly, I only care if they do the following: Go to class, try their best, and if they are nice people.  I have worked with a lot of people on the civilian side that were gay.  Men and women, no boundary.  I even knew of a couple of gay people in the military while I was in the Marines.  I didn't make a big deal of it, I didn't care.  You sir are a dedicated hapkido practitioner, then you are in my club.  It is all good pal.
> 
> The thing is: People should be judged based on their personality and merit as a human being.  Period, end of story.


What he said......welcome!


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## Kacey (Jun 1, 2006)

Hapki -

I think that the issues you raise are valid, and are an extension of the issues raised in this thread about dating, and how much of people's personal lives should occur within the dojang.

As I said in the other thread, I have friends and coworkers (some are friends who are coworkers) who are gay, as well as other TKD practitioners; the one I am aware of who currently works out is female, as I am - it's never bothered me in the slightest, and I think she was (quite happily) surprised that nothing changed in anyone's attitudes toward her when she came out by bringing her partner to a social function another person in the class held for his college graduation.  It just doesn't matter to me.

As far as those who feel homosexuality is a choice... well... I can't imagine why anyone would choose the negativity that many people heap on anyone who belongs to a minority group they disaprove of - I've gotten a very small taste of it from people who are convinced that I am damned because I am Jewish, although I realize that what I get is nothing compared to what is aimed at you.

Keep on posting, and bring up the issues that being gay cause in the dojang - perhaps your experiences will help someone else have a better experience than they otherwise might.

Shalom.  :asian:


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## Kensai (Jun 2, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for the very understanding posts. They mean a lot to me.
> 
> Kensai... No gay guy would expect you to ask him if he's gay. He might like you to, but he wouldn't expect that. The reason being gay becomes an issue (and all of us would like it to be a non-issue) is because when you train with people, you start developing relationships with them. Inevitably, you start talking about family, vacation trips, etc. Not being able to talk about your personal life becomes a huge impediment to that relationship and trust building exercise. It's hard to tell whether your training partner will accept you if he knew you're gay... and it's hard to trust him until you know the answer. Make sense? (Thanks for bringing this issue up... I truly appreciate the positive sentiment you were conveying. <respectful bow>)
> 
> ...


 
It must be difficult in knowing who you can trust to react in a respectful/open-minded manner, and your post made perfect sense mate. I return the bow :asian: Now... Where's that martial arts forum gone?? :ultracool  

P.S, anyone else got that Friday feeling?


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## Drac (Jun 2, 2006)

So you're gay..If you train intellegently and dilligently I (and I'm sure many others) could care less about your sexual orientation...


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## bluemtn (Jun 9, 2006)

So what if you're gay.  That has nothing to do with your personality, how you train, etc.  From what I've seen you post (now this is an opinion of you before you told us, and still remains the same)-  you're a great help to those with questions.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 10, 2006)

Hello and welcome to martialtalk.


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