# Weigh in on Weight Training



## geezer (Nov 19, 2007)

I posted a similar question over on FMA Talk, but the effects of misusing weights seem more problematic in Wing Tsun than in FMA's. What would you tell a Wing Chun/Tsun student who wanted to train with weights? Is there a right way to do it, or like my old Si-fu insisted, is it something to be avoided altogether?


----------



## almost a ghost (Nov 19, 2007)

Just for clarification, do you mean weight training as in free weights or training with weights added on such as iron rings/wrist & ankle weights?


----------



## Spartan (Nov 19, 2007)

Is there any scientific evidence to support the notion that weight training has a negative impact on wing chun?


----------



## melry88 (Nov 19, 2007)

Hey guys, from what I have been told and also have read that Wing Chun benefits from working on specific muscle groups.  A small example is training your triceps verse biceps, this helps build muscles that are used in even the very basics of SLT.  

A question that was asked of me is Why would you want large biceps when your biceps are not really used to extend the arm for a strike?.

Again this is just what I have been told and seen out and about so take it for what it is worth.

Good luck!


----------



## geezer (Nov 19, 2007)

Spartan said:


> Is there any scientific evidence to support the notion that weight training has a negative impact on wing chun?


 
OK, here's the problem: since muscles only contract and then relax, but do not extend, it takes energy from the opposing muscle group to extend them. So, if you develop huge biceps, it would rob your punch of the energy that is required to extend the biceps. It's like driving with your parking brake on. It slows you down and wears you out.  The question is can you train selectively with weights to maximize strength and minimize this "drag" effect?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 19, 2007)

geezer said:


> OK, here's the problem: since muscles only contract and then relax, but do not extend, it takes energy from the opposing muscle group to extend them. So, if you develop huge biceps, it would rob your punch of the energy that is required to extend the biceps. It's like driving with your parking brake on. It slows you down and wears you out. The question is can you train selectively with weights to maximize strength and minimize this "drag" effect?


 
Balance your weight training, work both sets of muscles.


----------



## qwksilver61 (Nov 19, 2007)

Personally,I would not.I like/prefer the springy flexible muscle that is developed.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Nov 19, 2007)

The myth of "bulky and slow" muscles is just that...a myth.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Nov 19, 2007)

geezer said:


> OK, here's the problem: since muscles only contract and then relax, but do not extend, it takes energy from the opposing muscle group to extend them. So, if you develop huge biceps, it would rob your punch of the energy that is required to extend the biceps. It's like driving with your parking brake on. It slows you down and wears you out. The question is can you train selectively with weights to maximize strength and minimize this "drag" effect?


 
Then bigger triceps would be good????


----------



## tahuti (Nov 19, 2007)

Problem with weight training is in PROPER training.

3 common mistakes

1- Transplanting weightlifting or bodybuilding program;
sprinters and marathoners both run but their training plans are not similar, you need training plan that fits your chosen activity

2- Focusing on absolute strength;
Previous coach of Cro Corp (MMA) commented on his defeat that he was in good condition for some other sport but not for MMA, you need to cover also power, speed, flexibilty, endurance, not only absolute strength

3- Strength is NOT Power;
approximate training difference
Strength training is high resistance, low repetition
Power training is medium resistance, medium repetition, HIGH speed

Movements that affect whole body are the best (deadlift, clean press) time wise. 

Why would you train triceps more than biceps, I hope you don't need to defend since same logic will apply to return your hand closer to your body.

This reminded me of those guys who did 300 crunches but 0 for back muscles and were surprised that they got pain in the back. To stand vertically you need both back and abs to work in coordination.


----------



## Selfcritical (Nov 20, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Then bigger triceps would be good????


 
The force provided by either your triceps or biceps should be neglible unless you're doing it incorrectly; the force is imported by the hips/shoulders/falling step, and the arm should just be providing a solid structure so that the force thus generated can be conveyed to the target. This should hold true for both WC and boxing-style punches.


----------



## Blindside (Nov 20, 2007)

geezer said:


> OK, here's the problem: since muscles only contract and then relax, but do not extend, it takes energy from the opposing muscle group to extend them. So, if you develop huge biceps, it would rob your punch of the energy that is required to extend the biceps. It's like driving with your parking brake on. It slows you down and wears you out. The question is can you train selectively with weights to maximize strength and minimize this "drag" effect?


 
Yes, exactly, peoples who need their limbs to move really fast, like world class Olympic sprinters are skinny little twerps with minimum musculature to slow them down, or maybe not....







Excerpted from an interview with Asafa Powell, the current fastest man in the world.



> *Q: During the sprinting season, what is your normal routine?
> A:* During sprinting season, I train with weights on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays at 7 a.m. and again at 3 p.m. On Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays I train just once a day. Each training session lasts about three hours. I burn so many calories that I could eat pretty much anything, but I dont. I try to get eight hours of sleep a night. But this doesnt always happen!
> 
> *Q: What do you do during the off-season?*
> *A:* The off-season in track is really short, only about six weeks. I spend the time building up my strength and endurance for the race season. I do lots of heavy lifting and 300- and 400-meter sprints. If I slack off in the off-season, you can bet Ill have a poor season and wont last through the summer.


----------



## larry (Nov 20, 2007)

regular weight training will not compromise your wing chun structure.  To excess may keep you from relaxing into a proper structure.                       reflex action in the techniques comes from practice,  no matter what your muscle structure may be.  However,  if you seriously practice wing chun you will not have time for,  or need of weights other than your own,  your opponent/opponents,  and the mook jong.


----------



## Seeker (Nov 20, 2007)

tahuti said:


> Problem with weight training is in PROPER training.



I'd say tahuti has given the best advice and there's not really much more to add to it other than to concur on the whole body and balanced approach.


----------



## Spartan (Nov 20, 2007)

I do agree w/ Tahuti as well. I think he's brought up some relevant data w/ his reference to cro cop - while it's important for the wing chun fighter to try and maximize their striking ability, in a real fight they'll be doing more than just striking.

Sometimes it seems like wing chunners want to completely ignore the bicep.


----------



## geezer (Nov 20, 2007)

Spartan said:


> I do agree w/ Tahuti as well. I think he's brought up some relevant data w/ his reference to cro cop - while it's important for the wing chun fighter to try and maximize their striking ability, in a real fight they'll be doing more than just striking.
> 
> Sometimes it seems like wing chunners want to completely ignore the bicep.


So far you guys make a good argument in favor of _intelligent _weight training to increase power and speed. In spite of the traditional bias against weights, I'd be inclined to agree. Does anybody care to share their favorite routines?


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Nov 20, 2007)

Whats your goal? Speed, power, strength, muscular endurance, size/composition? A combination? All of them but in varying percentage?


----------



## Doc_Jude (Nov 21, 2007)

geezer said:


> OK, here's the problem: since muscles only contract and then relax, but do not extend, it takes energy from the opposing muscle group to extend them. So, if you develop huge biceps, it would rob your punch of the energy that is required to extend the biceps. It's like driving with your parking brake on. It slows you down and wears you out.  The question is can you train selectively with weights to maximize strength and minimize this "drag" effect?



There is a use for the bicep in Wing Chun. The straight blast isn't the end-all be-all.

I would say, do your weight training, whatever you decide on, twice a week, probably olympic lifts or whatever you decide, just for strength in general, but do your push-ups and dips really intense, plyometric style. Strong, fast extentions, clapping pushups, you know the drill. These will train you to relax on the tricep extention, regardless of how big your biceps get.


----------



## almost a ghost (Nov 21, 2007)

I go to the gym 2 - 3 times a week. My training is primarily 3-4 reps of 8-10, and once in a blue moon I'll see how much weight I can put up. This is also in addition to throwing 1000 punches a day (usually right before I hit the gym).

Has it affected my wing chun? Yes, for the better. I can chi sao much longer than I've been able to and apply more force for arm pinning and lap sao pulls.


----------



## geezer (Nov 22, 2007)

almost a ghost said:


> I go to the gym 2 - 3 times a week. My training is primarily 3-4 reps of 8-10, and once in a blue moon I'll see how much weight I can put up. This is also in addition to throwing 1000 punches a day (usually right before I hit the gym).
> 
> Has it affected my wing chun? Yes, for the better. I can chi sao much longer than I've been able to and apply more force for arm pinning and lap sao pulls.


I bet all those punches do a pretty good job at stretching out and loosening up your arms to prevent any excessive bulk and the tightness that would slow you down. I'm working very cautiously with weights myself. I'm using dumbells, as they demand more balance and coordination, I'm shooting for 12 reps and alternating my weight workouts with calisthenics. For example, if I do dumbell bench presses and triceps extentions on Mon., on Wed. I will do sets of push-ups and dips. I try to balance opposing muscle groups. Add in a lot of puches and chi-sau and I think it should all balance out. So far it's working. I seem to be getting more power, speed and endurance. I guess time will tell.  Comments?


----------



## tahuti (Nov 22, 2007)

Here is 7day plan. Daily 20min minimum.
Strength-Conditioning-Power-Conditioning-Strength-Optional-Rest
Optional is either rest or another conditioning day or just go play game like soccer.Next week switch strength with power.

Dumbell is good since it allows you to train your non dominant side more.
There are 3 types of movement snatch, swing and press, each has bunch of variations.

If you are first timer with weights than going to 12 rep is ok for about 6months. 8-12 reps is more favorite for bodybuilders. Try 90% weight of your repetition maximum with 5 reps, you might need bit of longer rests between sets (3min). Why all your strength training is for arms?

For power various plyometrics exercises, like throw dumbell (or stone, medicine ball), clap or triple clap pushups. Key concept is to do these exercises at high speed so you can't have maximum resistance, and rep range can still be 1-6.


----------



## Spartan (Nov 22, 2007)

I don't use weights entirely for martial arts training. I am, however, mindful of how certain movements/ methods will affect/ benefit my martial arts routine.

I try to keep in mind, as some have already mentioned, the agonist/ antagonist muscle principles, as well as the proportion of muscle effort (triceps being 2/3 of the arm's strength). I only have so much time a week, so I generally like to hit it about 4 times.

I'm a big fan of circuit training (going from one exercise into the next). While I like to occasionally work for absolute strength, I most of the time do medium weight with medium/high reps. 

I'll hit abs/obliques/low back w/every workout and finish it off w/ 20-30 minutes of cardio. Dumbells, as a whole, seem to work best for me because of the freedom of range.

Just my thoughts,
Spartan


----------



## UrBaN (Nov 23, 2007)

Try kettlebells. 
They are martial arts specific, because they require the whole body to work as a unit.

Weight training will benefit every martial art. 

Just train smart.


----------



## Danny T (Nov 23, 2007)

geezer said:


> I posted a similar question over on FMA Talk, but the effects of misusing weights seem more problematic in Wing Tsun than in FMA's. What would you tell a Wing Chun/Tsun student who wanted to train with weights? Is there a right way to do it, or like my old Si-fu insisted, is it something to be avoided altogether?


 
Now why would one actually want to become stronger? It only helps the overall conditioning and abilities. 

Just because one gets stronger doesn't mean they become less flexiable or slower. I and many of those who train with me have done weight training for years. I can bench 350 lbs and military press 300. I leg press 635 working 3 sets of 8-10 reps. As to being flexible I can easily touch my elbows together and can do full splits. I am not bulked like a body builder nor are the others training with me. We also do a lot of plyometric and explosive type of training giving the lats and tricepts a lot of work.

At 53 years of age weight training has been a great way to keep my body strong, fit, and youthful.


----------



## barnaby (Nov 28, 2007)

elbows in, go slow, and keep your chi-gong strong and you should be fine is my take.


----------

