# Are Grappling Matches Fights?



## MardiGras Bandit (Jul 3, 2006)

This started out as a troll thread someone posted on the Underground forum, but it is an interesting discussion. 

Can grappling matches be called fights?  I would never claim to have had fights because I have done grappling tournaments, and I never thought about pure grappling as fighting. At the same time boxing matches are refered to as fights quite often. Is this a double standard? The dictionary definition includes wrestling (a form of grappling) and boxing in its definition of fighting, but most people only seem to consider boxing a fight. Are they both fights? Are neither fights? Whats everyones opinion?


----------



## Andrew Green (Jul 3, 2006)

Well, in Boxing matches your goal is to hurt the other person to the point that he can't continue.  In a grappling match, usually, no one gets hurt.

That's a pretty big difference in what's going on, especially in the head...


----------



## MardiGras Bandit (Jul 3, 2006)

Fewer people get hurt because grapplers can tap out, however my intention in a grappling match is to hurt the other person. The injuries possible in pure grappling are much more serious then those possible in pure boxing. People tap because the alternative would quite often be a debilitating injury. 

I've never boxed, so I don't know how the mental angle would compare between the two sports. I'm tempted to agree with you, but I know some amateur boxers who are completely cool before a fight (match?) so I am hesitant to say for sure.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 3, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Fewer people get hurt because grapplers can tap out, *however my intention in a grappling match is to hurt the other person*. The injuries possible in pure grappling are much more serious then those possible in pure boxing. People tap because the alternative would quite often be a debilitating injury.
> 
> I've never boxed, so I don't know how the mental angle would compare between the two sports. I'm tempted to agree with you, but I know some amateur boxers who are completely cool before a fight (match?) so I am hesitant to say for sure.


 
Im curious to know why your intention in a match would be to purposefully hurt someone.

It's plenty easy to injure someone during a fight, enough to even cause the fight to be stopped. 
In my eyes that is not a display of technical ability but rather an easy way to meet your objective.
A good grappling match shows someone that is able to avoid injury during the fight and win without seriously injuring his opponent.

Boxing has its share of serious effects but they dont usually show up until later in someones career........sure, a hyper-extended elbow will heal.....you can recover from a torn ACL, a boxer on the other hand might suffer multiple concussions or brain damage that can prevent them from functioning as normal adults.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 3, 2006)

None are fights.  All are sports because of one crucial factor. Rule sets.


----------



## matt.m (Jul 3, 2006)

Look if it is a fight then there are no rules.  If there are rules there is usually a gym involved.

So grappling matches are not fights.


----------



## MardiGras Bandit (Jul 3, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> Im curious to know why your intention in a match would be to purposefully hurt someone.
> It's plenty easy to injure someone during a fight, enough to even cause the fight to be stopped.
> In my eyes that is not a display of technical ability but rather an easy way to meet your objective.
> A good grappling match shows someone that is able to avoid injury during the fight and win without seriously injuring his opponent.


By their very nature submissions are designed to hurt people, any time a person works for one their intention is to hurt someone. If I'm rolling in the school I don't try to purposely cause injury, but I also rely on my opponent to let me know when to stop. The same is true for a tournament, however at a tournament I go far harder then in class and rely on my opponent tapping to a much greater degree.  Simply trying to control your opponent in a grappling match is usually frowned upon as point hunting.

I never considered a grappling match a fight, but if that is the case I'm not sure boxing is one either. At the same time both are a martial contest between two people, and could be considered a form of fighting. Now I'm up in the air.


----------



## Dark (Jul 4, 2006)

I fight is the purest attempt to kill, cripple or maim the other guy before he does so to you. If you are grappling to break something or the choke someone out with the intent to do serious physical damage to them, yep sounds like fighting. If you are trying to make them tap, go for it, it isn't fighting because there are no rules, it fighting based on your intent to harm...


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 5, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> I fight is the purest attempt to kill, cripple or maim the other guy before he does so to you. If you are grappling to break something or the choke someone out with the intent to do serious physical damage to them, yep sounds like fighting. If you are trying to make them tap, go for it, it isn't fighting because there are no rules, it fighting based on your intent to harm...


 
Not quite, by your own definition a fight is the puret attempt to kill, cripple or maim the other guy BEFORE HE DOES SO TO YOU.  In a tournament (which generally has rules) the other guy isn't generally trying to kill, cripple or maim you.  That means you can't beat him to it which means it isn't really a fight.  And that's by the definition that you gave.


----------



## Brother John (Jul 5, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> This started out as a troll thread someone posted on the Underground forum, but it is an interesting discussion.
> 
> Can grappling matches be called fights? I would never claim to have had fights because I have done grappling tournaments, and I never thought about pure grappling as fighting. At the same time boxing matches are refered to as fights quite often. Is this a double standard? The dictionary definition includes wrestling (a form of grappling) and boxing in its definition of fighting, but most people only seem to consider boxing a fight. Are they both fights? Are neither fights? Whats everyones opinion?


It's just semantics, nothing more.
IF you consider it a "Fight", then it is.
If you don't.....it's not.

I don't consider any competitive event a fight.
Semantics....and differences of opinion.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Dark (Jul 5, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Not quite, by your own definition a fight is the puret attempt to kill, cripple or maim the other guy BEFORE HE DOES SO TO YOU. In a tournament (which generally has rules) the other guy isn't generally trying to kill, cripple or maim you. That means you can't beat him to it which means it isn't really a fight. And that's by the definition that you gave.


 
Exactly the intent to do serious bodily harm is a fight, do I consider a boxing match a fight, nope. Do I consider the UFC a fight, nope. Its all combative sports, which while isn't fighting does teach the methods of fighting.


----------



## crushing (Jul 5, 2006)

Allow me to check something out . . . 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fight

Umm.  Yes.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 5, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Exactly the intent to do serious bodily harm is a fight, do I consider a boxing match a fight, nope. Do I consider the UFC a fight, nope. Its all combative sports, which while isn't fighting does teach the methods of fighting.


 
So in the street, if your defending yourself against a stumbling drunk intent on stabing you with a toothbrush (laughable I know) I would hope that you wouldn't intend to do serious bodily harm.  Is this still a fight? There are no rules and hopefully no intent on the serious injury side either.

Just curious on why you define intent as opposed to circumstance as the determining factor in a fight.  It's a unique and new viewpoint to me.


----------



## Shogun (Jul 5, 2006)

> By their very nature submissions are designed to hurt people, any time a person works for one their intention is to hurt someone. If I'm rolling in the school I don't try to purposely cause injury, but I also rely on my opponent to let me know when to stop. The same is true for a tournament, however at a tournament I go far harder then in class and rely on my opponent tapping to a much greater degree. Simply trying to control your opponent in a grappling match is usually frowned upon as point hunting.
> 
> I never considered a grappling match a fight, but if that is the case I'm not sure boxing is one either. At the same time both are a martial contest between two people, and could be considered a form of fighting. Now I'm up in the air.


I have to agree with you. While in a grappling match, the idea is not to cripple someone, but the idea of submissions is to "hurt". more so than boxing. because that "hurt" is a signal of defeat. by tapping, you are now free from pain. also, hurt can be defined as slowing your opponent down too. you may hurt them with a takedown, and it would be easier to get a submission because it may have been mental pain. a reversal can hurt too in this aspect. knocking the wind out of them from a takedown is "hurting" but its not really hurting them. just temp pain.


----------



## Dark (Jul 5, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> So in the street, if your defending yourself against a stumbling drunk intent on stabing you with a toothbrush (laughable I know) I would hope that you wouldn't intend to do serious bodily harm. Is this still a fight? There are no rules and hopefully no intent on the serious injury side either.
> 
> Just curious on why you define intent as opposed to circumstance as the determining factor in a fight. It's a unique and new viewpoint to me.


 
Gotta keep the tooth brushes away from my drunk friends lol... In reality the intent defines the means and often the method. Think of tree, intention is the root, the means the trunk and the branches the methods available. I use as a model for use of force and situational control for my MP unit.
Its also based on my philosophical view that the why is sometimes more imporatnt then the how. The right thing for the wrong reason is still the wrong thing...

Getting a drunk guy under crontol so that he doesn't hurt anyone else or more likely himself isn't a fight, the intention is (for me) keeping another person from getting hurt. Like finding a lost childs mother, except bigger, drunk and thus dumber 

Intention: Prevent him from harming himself or others...
Means: Non-lethal force...
Method: Call the police to have him picked up, restain him if nessicary but mainly try to calm him down.


----------



## Brother John (Jul 6, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> This started out as a troll thread someone posted on the Underground forum, but it is an interesting discussion.
> 
> Can grappling matches be called fights?
> I would never claim to have had fights because I have done grappling tournaments,?


 
I can understand the passing curiousity, but as with most troll threads, the premise is silly and I wouldn't think warrants a LOT of discussion.
....Fight
battle
struggle
contest...

It doesn't matter.
WORDS are just words



Your Brother
John


----------

