# Tae Kwon Do and R.O.K. Marines



## ellies (Nov 21, 2008)

I have heard all kinds of views and opinions concerning Tae Kwon Do.  It always end the same way with my friends, they say something and their lack of knowledge leads them to become a practitioner of the art.  Over and over again I listen to critics, most who have never practiced a martial art until MMA came around and the "discovery" of Brazilian Jujistsu.  Now all of these "masters" piont their fingers at TKD and say......"Thats not really a martial art, it's a sport"!  Recently a good friend of mine, and former R.O.K. Marine was invited to attend a Brazilian Jujistsu training session.  One of the instructor noted that when he walked in the room that he was a trained soldier, and remarked to one of his students who'd belittle him earlier " Look before you leap!"  The young student approached my friend and asked him if he'd ever practiced martial art before, and he replied "Yes Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido"  the young man disrespectfully laughed in his face.  The instructor offered an apology, but the damage was done according to the young man.  "Tae Kwon Do?, that aint no martial art!!"  My friend replied; "I will give you three chances to take me down, and if you do I leave.  They young man realized quickly he'd bite off more than he could chew.  The instructor told my friend he was welcome anytime, and the young apologized after he regained conscienous some time later.  Saying BBJ is worthless would start a commotion greater the fall of the Berlin Wall, so why do folks think it okay to do the same with TKD.  I practice both and have a fond respect of all martial arts, never putting down one or the other.  All we are asking for is the respect that is do, for after all the Republic of Korea Marine Corps can't be wrong and they've beenat it for some time!!


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## Twin Fist (Nov 21, 2008)

Olympic style


thats all you need to know

ROK marines dont do Olympic style, the guys that got creamed at the Gracies? they did.


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## exile (Nov 21, 2008)

ellies said:


> I have heard all kinds of views and opinions concerning Tae Kwon Do.  It always end the same way with my friends, they say something and their lack of knowledge leads them to become a practitioner of the art.  Over and over again I listen to critics, most who have never practiced a martial art until MMA came around and the "discovery" of Brazilian Jujistsu.  Now all of these "masters" piont their fingers at TKD and say......"Thats not really a martial art, it's a sport"!  Recently a good friend of mine, and former R.O.K. Marine was invited to attend a Brazilian Jujistsu training session.  One of the instructor noted that when he walked in the room that he was a trained soldier, and remarked to one of his students who'd belittle him earlier " Look before you leap!"  The young student approached my friend and asked him if he'd ever practiced martial art before, and he replied "Yes Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido"  the young man disrespectfully laughed in his face.  The instructor offered an apology, but the damage was done according to the young man.  "Tae Kwon Do?, that aint no martial art!!"  My friend replied; "I will give you three chances to take me down, and if you do I leave.  They young man realized quickly he'd bite off more than he could chew.  The instructor told my friend he was welcome anytime, and the young apologized after he regained conscienous some time later.  Saying BBJ is worthless would start a commotion greater the fall of the Berlin Wall, so why do folks think it okay to do the same with TKD.  I practice both and have a fond respect of all martial arts, never putting down one or the other.  All we are asking for is the respect that is do, for after all the Republic of Korea Marine Corps can't be wrong and they've beenat it for some time!!



Ellies, no one respects the CQ combat content of TKD more than I; I've posted many times on the use the ROK marines and special commando units made of their skill in the art to intimidate their Communist enemiesand worse than intimidatein the Korean War, and at Tra Binh Dong and other venues during the Vietnam War. The ROK soldiers were feared by the Viet Cong for their hand-to-hand combat skills, and rightly so. 

But they trained TKD in a way that is almost unheard of in North America. It's not the art itself that people are disrespecting (whether they know it or not), it's the competitive sport training which has almost no relationship to street combat. _That's_ the problem...


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## Deaf Smith (Nov 21, 2008)

I've been under three Korean Grand Masters. Two were ex-military. The current one, for over 16 years, was a ROK in Vietnam. He once killed a NVA when they overran the bridge his unit was guarding. He killed that one with the RT handset beating him to death with it.

The founder of the ITF, General Choi Hong Hi, tested my teacher for 2nd dan in Korea. From what he has told me, the ROK army was very very PT orientated and had very serious views on H2H.

You can get any martial art, put a bunch of artificial rules that force emphsis on one particular aspect and you will twist that art into a game. You can get that same art, make it a McDojo with black belts in 1 and 1/2 year and no sweat and make that art a farce.

That does not mean the art is bad, nor the methods of that art are bad. Just those who twisted the art. And a shame on them.

Deaf


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## hkfuie (Nov 21, 2008)

I am old school TKD.  Sometimes I wish i could call my art by another name because I feel what I do is so different from sport style.  

But some of my best friends are WTF.  And I know of no one who physically trains harder that these guys.  They hit hard, spar hard, and they have their own reasons for doing things the way they do them.

I think to talk trash about Olympic style is unfortunate.  I am going to let other people do what they do, I am going to do what I do.  

In all honesty, I have faced so much crap from people about TKD.  I have been treated with disrespect from martial artists that I had respected, so much so that for a while I did not want to tell anyone I was TKD.

But then I decided to embrace it.  I welcome it.  Go ahead and dismiss me in your mind if you want to.  I know who I am.  I know my training.  Gives me an advantage.  

I then started training in jujitsu and everyone in that place has been noting but respectful since I have been there.  These guys are big MMA fans and  most have BBs in another style.  The students there tell me that they would like to learn TKD, they ask me questions, as well as ask questions of the other TKDists there.  They ask me to show them kicks and strikes.  

From this new experience I have learned that it is all about the quality of the people you surround yourself with.  Not the quality of the martial arts, the quality of the humans.  Respect is a human thing.  Should not matter rank or style.


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## terryl965 (Nov 21, 2008)

exile said:


> Ellies,* no one respects the CQ combat content of TKD more than I; I've posted many times on the use the ROK marines and special commando units made of their skill in the art to intimidate their Communist enemiesand worse than intimidatein the Korean War, and at Tra Binh Dong and other venues during the Vietnam War. The ROK soldiers were feared by the Viet Cong for their hand-to-hand combat skills, and rightly so. *
> 
> But they trained TKD in a way that is almost unheard of in North America. It's not the art itself that people are disrespecting (whether they know it or not), it's the competitive sport training which has almost no relationship to street combat. _That's_ the problem...


 
*Exile I too have posted so many threads about the combat effectivness of TKD, but to many time people just do not see enough of it. I have been told by more than a few what I teach is not TKD. I guess all these years later and I still teach the same as before with a few new tricks added in.*


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## exile (Nov 21, 2008)

hkfuie said:


> But some of my best friends are WTF.  And I know of no one who physically trains harder that these guys.  They hit hard, spar hard, and they have their own reasons for doing things the way they do them.
> 
> I think to talk trash about Olympic style is unfortunate.  I am going to let other people do what they do, I am going to do what I do.



hkf, no one is talking trash about Olympic style, I don't think. And no one is disputing how hard athletes whose sport is Olympic-style TKD train. The problem is at a different level: it's the identification in much of the public mind, and in much of the TKD world, of that particular version of TKD with the _whole_ of TKD&#8212;including the hand-to-hand, civilian self-defense version whose motives, strategic view and tactical application are vastly different from the ring competitive version that your friends practice. What you're seeing here is a response from people who are rejecting, in admittedly very strong terms, the equating of these two things, and who are stressing the value and equal claim to TKD-hood of the SD side, which is so seriously neglected, or ignored outright, in the majority of dojangs. 

I don't think anyone intends to demean anyone else in any of this. But for people who believe that combat-effective TKD is in danger of becoming a lost art, there is a certain urgency in proclaiming that, as much as people want to believe that the sport side is the whole story, it just ain't so, and that people need to keep firmly in mind the distinction between these two vastly different takes on the art.


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## Deaf Smith (Nov 21, 2008)

exile said:


> But for people who believe that combat-effective TKD is in danger of becoming a lost art, there is a certain urgency in proclaiming that, much as people want to believe that the sport side is the whole story, it just ain't so, and that people need to keep firmly in mind the distinction between these two vastly different takes on the art.


 
Exactly.

The Olympic side of TKD has it's uses. Even the PR side has increased TKD's visibility among the populance alot. And the kicking techniques I feel do have some uses and one of my friends, also a 5th dan, is now practicing them to add to his arsenal (and he has many of them!)

*BUT*, it has alot of people thinking TKD = Olympic sparring, which is like BJJ = World Championship Wrestling (but I admit, the Olympic TKD is not faked like WCW.)

And that is the problem. 

That and McDojos. 

McDojos remind me of how they made instant shake-n-bake sargents in Vietnam. Sped up the process and cut out the fine points. No field experience, no time in grade. 

Ask alot of those instant black belts to name all the basic movements in Korean and they would give you a blank stare. Mention the fine points of each of the tenants and they would ask you what was a tenant. And an awful lot of them can't demonstrate a really good kick. Any kick.

I'm not demanding every candidate for black belt be able to do back flips or do any dare-devil stunts, but still it's awful watered down in some places.

And most importantly, if standards are low, or ideals lost, then it's no more than a mail ordered degree.

Deaf


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## terryl965 (Nov 21, 2008)

Well I teach Olympic style for those that wish it along side there other aspect of TKD, Hell my son is trying to make it to the Olympics in WYF srtle of fighting it goes have it place along side of other sports.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 22, 2008)

I really think the situation can be cleared up with 2 viewpoints:

1) How you train, and how how hard you work at that training

2) The intent of the use of the techniques taught in the training

If you really stop and take a look at those 2 viewpoints, you should know what side of the fence you're on...either the SD side or the sport side.

I'm not casting judgement on either side at this point...I think both sides have their place, and at one time, they both shared the same aspects.

If only the 2 sides could come together once again....


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## matt.m (Nov 22, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> I've been under three Korean Grand Masters. Two were ex-military. The current one, for over 16 years, was a ROK in Vietnam. He once killed a NVA when they overran the bridge his unit was guarding. He killed that one with the RT handset beating him to death with it.
> 
> The founder of the ITF, General Choi Hong Hi, tested my teacher for 2nd dan in Korea. From what he has told me, the ROK army was very very PT orientated and had very serious views on H2H.
> 
> ...


 
I could not agree more.  Hapkido gets watered down and so does judo.  It happens everywhere in every art.  That is why it all comes down to the individual instructor at the end of the day to ensure integrity.


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## Deaf Smith (Nov 22, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Well I teach Olympic style for those that wish it along side there other aspect of TKD, Hell my son is trying to make it to the Olympics in WYF srtle of fighting it goes have it place along side of other sports.


 

Terry,

I'm not griping at Olympic TKD in itself. I'd prefer they just call it Olympic Kwon Do (OKD) and leave TKD out of it. 

I mean it. Teach a new art called Olympic Kwon Do (OKD). Even forms that emphasize kicking to a degree not seen anywhere else. Forms, footwork, sparring methods, even self-defense using the feet far more than the hands. I've seen people who could really use their feet and that would be just their style to train in.

But TKD, like Hapkido, or Shotokan, or Ju-Jitsu, and other arts, should more or less stay as fighting arts and not be confusing to others.

Deaf


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## zDom (Nov 22, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Terry,
> 
> I'm not griping at Olympic TKD in itself. I'd prefer they just call it Olympic Kwon Do (OKD) and leave TKD out of it.
> 
> ...




You probably mean "OTD" as the Tae is the kicking part and the Kwan is the punching part 

As for me, I just wish there were more folk like Terry out there involved in the game.

It should be a game for people who do taekwondo, not a game that (mostly) excludes those who do traditional taekwondo because they aren't training in the art of exploiting the rules well enough.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

I had a soldier come in Thursday to see what we do, he'd just been posted in and was looking for somewhere to train. He's a blackbelt TKD and I was thinking while I explained to him what we do (MMA) that he may feel uncomfortable with our level of training and contact but he said he'd trained to spar full contact albeit with protection and was quite happy to train with us. He said his sparring was little different from ours in intensity, just a bit different in stances (we use a wide stance to avoid takedowns) and distances I think it shows there's still TKD instructors out there who are teaching a real art in terms many of us understand.
I think he's going to be a great asset to the club.... when he comes back in February after three months skiing in Norway! All right for some!


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## Deaf Smith (Nov 22, 2008)

zDom said:


> You probably mean "OTD" as the Tae is the kicking part and the Kwan is the punching part
> 
> As for me, I just wish there were more folk like Terry out there involved in the game.
> 
> It should be a game for people who do taekwondo, not a game that (mostly) excludes those who do traditional taekwondo because they aren't training in the art of exploiting the rules well enough.


 
OTD just does not have the right ring to it ZDom. Sounds like a drug overdose.

Or maybe call it Extreme TKD (ETKD). Might even make it more popular, like World Extreme Cagefighting (though I hasten to admit I'm am no fan to WEC.)

Deaf


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## MasterWright (Nov 24, 2008)

I'm not sure how the system works in the US but I'm sure that the Armed Forces personel are trained well.  

When we attend the tournaments,sometimes the army team is there. Some of them are on the Canadian team. I know that they train for 4 hours each day in the sport they choose and it shows. They are the ones to beat.


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## hkfuie (Nov 24, 2008)

exile said:


> hkf, no one is talking trash about Olympic style, I don't think. And no one is disputing how hard athletes whose sport is Olympic-style TKD train.




Exile, I was talking about the guys in the original story, not the guys here on this site.


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## exile (Nov 24, 2008)

hkfuie said:


> Exile, I was talking about the guys in the original story, not the guys here on this site.



Gotcha, hkf!


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