# Bj penn UFC 232 (spoilers obviously)



## Headhunter (Dec 30, 2018)

so BJ penn lost yet again and lost for the first time by submission and by a heel hook.

It's funny how the UFC trashes chuck vs Tito but continues to let BJ fight who's last win was against matt Hughes in 2010 and is now 16-13 and lost 6 fights in a row with 1 draw to Fitch.

BJ should've stayed retired. He's obviously way past his best. Mma has past him by. He was beaten by his specialty which is Bjj. Not taking it away from hall. It was a great submission and a great set up for it but BJ has to stop now. Sure he's not taking as much damage as someone like chuck but still it's hard to think of anyone BJ can beat at this point


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## Headhunter (Dec 30, 2018)

Okay not the fight the thread was about but on the same card. Ouch now that sucks..


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2018)

While BJJ is his speciality, the sport and martial art has evolved a ton since he earned his black belt. For example, Bj was steeped in BJJ back when leglocks were considered bad form. However, modern BJJ utilizes leg locks extensively. Hell, I don't even think the 50/50 guard (that Hall created and uses) was even around when Bj got his black belt.

That said, impressive set-up by Hall, and another win for BJJ in MMA. Imanari rolls are always a treat to see in MMA, and the roll transitioning into 50/50 was a thing of beauty. Dana needs to feed Hall some competition, because the boy deserves a shot at the title.


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That said, impressive set-up by Hall, and another win for BJJ in MMA.


Seriously? That could quite possibly be the stupidest post of the year. If not, definitely the grandmaster of the obvious award. I call my wife a grandmaster of the obvious (master of the obvious isn’t strong enough of a term for her level), and even she’d skip this comment if she knew anything about the subject.

Curiosity question, if I may: when 2 BJJ guys are in the cage, how do you consider “...another win for BJJ in MMA” relevant in any way, shape or form? Was there any other possible outcome?* I mean come on; are you that hung up on BJJ that you have to pint out every single BJJ win, even when it’s against another BJJer? Seriously?

How’s this one:
“Penn got beat. Another BJJ loss in MMA. More proof it’s not the great art everyone says it is.”

You’d face-palm as hard about my stupidity as I’m am about yours right now. Seriously.

*I guess a double DQ or some other freak thing could’ve occurred


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> so BJ penn lost yet again and lost for the first time by submission and by a heel hook.
> 
> It's funny how the UFC trashes chuck vs Tito but continues to let BJ fight who's last win was against matt Hughes in 2010 and is now 16-13 and lost 6 fights in a row with 1 draw to Fitch.
> 
> BJ should've stayed retired. He's obviously way past his best. Mma has past him by. He was beaten by his specialty which is Bjj. Not taking it away from hall. It was a great submission and a great set up for it but BJ has to stop now. Sure he's not taking as much damage as someone like chuck but still it's hard to think of anyone BJ can beat at this point


It’s just sad when fighters* don’t know when it’s time to go and let the next generation take over.

*It’s sad in all sports, although somehow fighters - boxers, MMAers, etc. - are just more sad than the other sports to me. Maybe because I feel they’re going to get seriously hurt or killed easier than the others? It ain’t exactly a tennis match.


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Seriously? That could quite possibly be the stupidest post of the year. If not, definitely the grandmaster of the obvious award. I call my wife a grandmaster of the obvious (master of the obvious isn’t strong enough of a term for her level), and even she’d skip this comment if she knew anything about the subject.
> 
> Curiosity question, if I may: when 2 BJJ guys are in the cage, how do you consider “...another win for BJJ in MMA” relevant in any way, shape or form? Was there any other possible outcome?* I mean come on; are you that hung up on BJJ that you have to pint out every single BJJ win, even when it’s against another BJJer? Seriously?
> 
> ...



Did I trigger you?

In recent years BJJ has been heavily criticized in the MMA world as being washed up or no longer useful in the modern form of MMA. There has been a recent resurgence from former sport BJJ champions (Hall, Tonnen, Dern, a couple of Gracies, and soon Gordan Ryan) that have extremely good records, and are bringing the art back to the forefront of MMA.

While Bj Penn definitely has BJJ pedigree and is one of the greats, he has been on nearly a decade long losing streak and is frankly on the way out. Hall on the other hand is on the upswing and represents the new wave of young MMA fighters coming from sport BJJ.

I hope that helps.


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Did I trigger you?
> 
> In recent years BJJ has been heavily criticized in the MMA world as being washed up or no longer useful in the modern form of MMA. There has been a recent resurgence from former sport BJJ champions (Hall, Tonnen, Dern, a couple of Gracies, and soon Gordan Ryan) that have extremely good records, and are bringing the art back to the forefront of MMA.
> 
> ...


Trigger me? Please. I was laughing the entire time. Your line was so stupid, as is this dense of it.

Another win for BJJ in MMA? How do you not see the stupidity of that, considering it was BJJ vs BJJ? That’s my point, and that’s what’s keeping me laughing. Who was supposed to win that fight? The Muay Thai guy who was watching in the stands? Maybe the Kyokushin guy who ordered in on PPV? Or maybe the karate guy who didn’t watch it (me).

How utterly asinine and comical would I sound if I said “another karate MMA win” if it was 2 karate guys fighting? You’d be pissing your pants laughing too. And DESERVINGLY calling me a moron.

Would I be stupid for saying “another boxing win in prize fighting” when Mike Tyson knocked out Michael Spinks?


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Trigger me? Please. I was laughing the entire time. Your line was so stupid, as is this dense of it.



Are you sure? It appears that that one little comment sent you off the deep end and into a nonsensical rant.



> Another win for BJJ in MMA? How do you not see the stupidity of that, considering it was BJJ vs BJJ? That’s my point, and that’s what’s keeping me laughing. Who was supposed to win that fight? The Muay Thai guy who was watching in the stands? Maybe the Kyokushin guy who ordered in on PPV? Or maybe the karate guy who didn’t watch it (me).



Already explained in my earlier posts. Please refer back to those posts since you seem utterly confused.



> How utterly asinine and comical would I sound if I said “another karate MMA win” if it was 2 karate guys fighting? You’d be pissing your pants laughing too. And DESERVINGLY calling me a moron.



The only thing utterly asinine and comical is you trying to make an argument that doesn't exist. A prime example is your quote below:



> Would I be stupid for saying “another boxing win in prize fighting” when Mike Tyson knocked out Michael Spinks?


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## Headhunter (Dec 30, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Did I trigger you?
> 
> In recent years BJJ has been heavily criticized in the MMA world as being washed up or no longer useful in the modern form of MMA. There has been a recent resurgence from former sport BJJ champions (Hall, Tonnen, Dern, a couple of Gracies, and soon Gordan Ryan) that have extremely good records, and are bringing the art back to the forefront of MMA.
> 
> ...


Yeah next generation looks great here doesn't it (sarcasm)


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## Headhunter (Dec 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Seriously? That could quite possibly be the stupidest post of the year. If not, definitely the grandmaster of the obvious award. I call my wife a grandmaster of the obvious (master of the obvious isn’t strong enough of a term for her level), and even she’d skip this comment if she knew anything about the subject.
> 
> Curiosity question, if I may: when 2 BJJ guys are in the cage, how do you consider “...another win for BJJ in MMA” relevant in any way, shape or form? Was there any other possible outcome?* I mean come on; are you that hung up on BJJ that you have to pint out every single BJJ win, even when it’s against another BJJer? Seriously?
> 
> ...


Yep this whole style v style in Mma is stupid....BJ has lost 6 fights in a row now with one draw. He drew with Fitch so Bjj couldn't win against wrestling. He lost to Diaz in basically a boxing match so Bjj lost against boxing, he lost to Frankie Edgar so Bjj lost to wrestling, he lost to yair so Bjj lost to karate, he lost to Denis siver so Bjj lost to kickboxing/taekwondo. So Bjj hasn't got a good record......no of course not that's stupid it's the fighter that matters. All Mma Fighters train in everything because it's Mma. I honestly can't believe all this nonsense still exists to me it just shows pure ignorance. Bjj has the potential to beat any style and any style has the potential to beat Bjj it all depends on the fighter using it. I'm not pro or anti Bjj. I train Bjj but I also see its weaknesses I'm just stating facts


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah next generation looks great here doesn't it (sarcasm)



Yes it does. One thing the new wave of BJJ fighters have in common is that they essentially remove one aspect of their opponent's game (grappling) to the point where their opponent has to keep the fight standing or they lose. That is a sizable disadvantage to the non-BJJ fighter, and part of the reason the ex-BJJ sport champs are finding success in MMA.

Maynard can ***** and moan all he wants, but he deserved to lose that fight (listen to the commentators). Hall dominated him on multiple levels mentally and physically.


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## Headhunter (Dec 30, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Yes it does. One thing the new wave of BJJ fighters have in common is that they essentially remove one aspect of their opponent's game (grappling) to the point where their opponent has to keep the fight standing or they lose. That is a sizable disadvantage to the non-BJJ fighter, and part of the reason the ex-BJJ sport champs are finding success in MMA.
> 
> Maynard can ***** and moan all he wants, but he deserved to lose that fight (listen to the commentators). Hall dominated him on multiple levels mentally and physically.


Lol it is very funny how extremely biased you are towards Bjj it makes you sound a bit silly at times if I'm honest


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Lol it is very funny how extremely biased you are towards Bjj it makes you sound a bit silly at times if I'm honest



Where's the extreme bias in that post? I'm merely pointing out the facts.


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Are you sure? It appears that that one little comment sent you off the deep end and into a nonsensical rant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish I could post a video of me laughing while typing right now. But if you want to believe I'm butt-hurt over here, feel free. If that helps you sleep at night, I'll go along with it.

If your earlier post explains how a BJJ guy beating a BJJ guy has any sort of relevance of any kind, I have one question for you:

You you retarded?

Let me put this in such a simple manner that you could understand...

Is Hall a BJJ guy? Yes.
Is Penn a BJJ guy? Yes.
So you say *"That said, impressive set-up by Hall, and another win for BJJ in MMA."* You're announcing a BJJ win in an MMA fight that was BJJ vs BJJ.

That's just as dumb as me saying "I told you BJJ sucks. BJ Penn got beat!" And you'd say "Hey idiot, the guy who beat him - Hall - is a BJJ guy!"

I've seen some hardcore fanboy $hit before, but you sir, you took it unknown levels with that. You just can't fix stupid.

I'm sure you'll have some stupid "if you can't see it in my previous post, you're stupid" come-back. Right.

So please come down to my stupid level and spell it out for me rather than making me read and interpret previous posts...

How is a BJJ guy beating another BJJ guy in an MMA match relevant enough to warrant the "...another win for BJJ in MMA" comment?


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Lol it is very funny how extremely biased you are towards Bjj it makes you sound a bit silly at times if I'm honest


Yeah, let's prove BJJ is so great and wins all the time, even when it's BJJ vs BJJ.

I'll prove BJJ sucks - Penn just got beat. And he's a BJJ guy 




(So what if a BJJ guy beat him. Hopefully people won't catch that and expose my fanboyness)

How stupid did this thread get? I really need to find a better way to waste my time. I just can't stop laughing at it all.


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## Headhunter (Dec 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I wish I could post a video of me laughing while typing right now. But if you want to believe I'm butt-hurt over here, feel free. If that helps you sleep at night, I'll go along with it.
> 
> If your earlier post explains how a BJJ guy beating a BJJ guy has any sort of relevance of any kind, I have one question for you:
> 
> ...


It's funny because Dana White even said after the fight that he set this one up because they were both high level jiu jitsu guys and it would be a good submission match so even fat boy white who has 0 martial arts training understands that fact


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I wish I could post a video of me laughing while typing right now. But if you want to believe I'm butt-hurt over here, feel free. If that helps you sleep at night, I'll go along with it.
> 
> If your earlier post explains how a BJJ guy beating a BJJ guy has any sort of relevance of any kind, I have one question for you:
> 
> *You you retarded?*




You might want to edit that....



> Let me put this in such a simple manner that you could understand...
> 
> Is Hall a BJJ guy? Yes.
> Is Penn a BJJ guy? Yes.
> ...



Again you're pinning an argument on me that I never made. My point is that Hall is on a winning streak like all of the BJJ fighters I mentioned. The fact that Bj Penn is also Bjj is inconsequential to that point. Additionally it could be argued that Penn is old school and Hall (like the others I mentioned) represent the new school.



> That's just as dumb as me saying "I told you BJJ sucks. BJ Penn got beat!" And you'd say "Hey idiot, the guy who beat him - Hall - is a BJJ guy!"



If you seriously cant tell the difference between what Ryan Hall is doing and what Bj Penn has been doing, there's really no point in continuing this conversation.



> I've seen some hardcore fanboy $hit before, but you sir, you took it unknown levels with that. You just can't fix stupid.
> 
> I'm sure you'll have some stupid "if you can't see it in my previous post, you're stupid" come-back. Right.
> 
> ...



All you have to do is read my posts in this thread. Don't react, just read.


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, let's prove BJJ is so great and wins all the time, even when it's BJJ vs BJJ.
> 
> I'll prove BJJ sucks - Penn just got beat. And he's a BJJ guy
> 
> ...



It got stupid when you somehow interpreted my post as me saying that "BJJ wins all the time" or "BJJ is the greatest". I merely said that Hall's win is a win for BJJ in MMA because it raises the profile of the art in MMA, and gives current elite BJJ athletes (like Gordon Ryan)a blueprint for how to succeed in MMA.


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## drop bear (Dec 30, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yep this whole style v style in Mma is stupid....BJ has lost 6 fights in a row now with one draw. He drew with Fitch so Bjj couldn't win against wrestling. He lost to Diaz in basically a boxing match so Bjj lost against boxing, he lost to Frankie Edgar so Bjj lost to wrestling, he lost to yair so Bjj lost to karate, he lost to Denis siver so Bjj lost to kickboxing/taekwondo. So Bjj hasn't got a good record......no of course not that's stupid it's the fighter that matters. All Mma Fighters train in everything because it's Mma. I honestly can't believe all this nonsense still exists to me it just shows pure ignorance. Bjj has the potential to beat any style and any style has the potential to beat Bjj it all depends on the fighter using it. I'm not pro or anti Bjj. I train Bjj but I also see its weaknesses I'm just stating facts



Not really. People still train the individual styles. 

And they do have an effect on the outcome.


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## Martial D (Dec 30, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> so BJ penn lost yet again and lost for the first time by submission and by a heel hook.
> 
> It's funny how the UFC trashes chuck vs Tito but continues to let BJ fight who's last win was against matt Hughes in 2010 and is now 16-13 and lost 6 fights in a row with 1 draw to Fitch.
> 
> BJ should've stayed retired. He's obviously way past his best. Mma has past him by. He was beaten by his specialty which is Bjj. Not taking it away from hall. It was a great submission and a great set up for it but BJ has to stop now. Sure he's not taking as much damage as someone like chuck but still it's hard to think of anyone BJ can beat at this point



Ya, bj has been left behind by the game. But BJ is not even 40.

Chuck is over 50. It's not the same.


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## Buka (Dec 30, 2018)

FELLAS, let's try and stay polite.

But a note about that match. I enjoyed Hall's comments afterwards, about wanting to go train with BJ Penn. And about how much he leaned from him watching videos.

And that was a _really_ nice move.


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## Martial D (Dec 30, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> It got stupid when you somehow interpreted my post as me saying that "BJJ wins all the time" or "BJJ is the greatest". I merely said that Hall's win is a win for BJJ in MMA because it raises the profile of the art in MMA, and gives current elite BJJ athletes (like Gordon Ryan)a blueprint for how to succeed in MMA.


Gordon? Is that you?


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> It's funny because Dana White even said after the fight that he set this one up because they were both high level jiu jitsu guys and it would be a good submission match so even fat boy white who has 0 martial arts training understands that fact


No one is debating that. Zero relevance to what I said.


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You might want to edit that....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’ve read it several times without “reacting” to see if I’m missing something.

Nope. I’m not. You even quoted me quoting you.

In plain English...

“...another win for BJJ in MMA.”
How do you consider this a win for BJJ in MMA? They’re both BJJ guys. It wasn’t karate nor anything else vs BJJ.

Just because one guy has one flavor of BJJ and the other has another flavor of BJJ doesn’t mean it’s not BJJ vs BJJ. Kyokushin vs Shotokan is still karate vs karate. Penn’s BJJ vs Hall’s BJJ is still BJJ vs BJJ. 

Yup. Another win for BJJ in MMA. You certainly got that right. No one saw a BJJ win coming in this fight. Who would’ve thunk it? I wish I had a time machine so I could go back in time and place a bet on “another win for BJJ in MMA.” I wonder what the Vegas odds were? 

I’m just... I’m just done.


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2018)

Anyway, Garry Tonnon and Nicky Ryan break down what Bj Penn should of done.  

Garry Lee Tonon on Instagram: “B.J. Penn vs. Ryan hall breakdown by @garrytonon and @nickyryanbjj by @bruzeyydoesjiujitsu. An expanded breakdown will be available on…”


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## Headhunter (Dec 31, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Trigger me? Please. I was laughing the entire time. Your line was so stupid, as is this dense of it.
> 
> Another win for BJJ in MMA? How do you not see the stupidity of that, considering it was BJJ vs BJJ? That’s my point, and that’s what’s keeping me laughing. Who was supposed to win that fight? The Muay Thai guy who was watching in the stands? Maybe the Kyokushin guy who ordered in on PPV? Or maybe the karate guy who didn’t watch it (me).
> 
> ...


Mayweather just won a boxing match against a kickboxer in Japan.....another win for boxing lol


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2018)

Looks like JR wasn't the only one triggered by my comment.

Here's another breakdown from Zombieproof;






Some have noted that Penn messed up by training in the gi over at Nova Uniao and generally focusing on the basics. I tend to agree with that assessment. Also I noticed Firas Zahabi in Ryan Hall's corner. That could explain the variations shown in the Imanari Roll that eventually did Penn in. Coach Zahabi is all about variations and changing things up.


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## JR 137 (Dec 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Looks like JR wasn't the only one triggered by my comment.
> 
> Here's another breakdown from Zombieproof;
> 
> ...


Don’t “keep score” of BJJ wins when it’s bjj vs bjj.

You’re looking for validation that BJJ is the be all end all you make it out to be. A BJJ win against another BJJ guy doesn’t count in your overall stupid BJJ winning stats. 

You didn’t trigger anything. Except the truth.


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Don’t “keep score” of BJJ wins when it’s bjj vs bjj.
> 
> You’re looking for validation that BJJ is the be all end all you make it out to be. A BJJ win against another BJJ guy doesn’t count in your overall stupid BJJ winning stats.
> 
> You didn’t trigger anything. Except the truth.



LoL! By all means, find the post where I say that BJJ is the "be all end all". 

Again, you're making arguments that no one made.


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## Steve (Dec 31, 2018)

I may be wrong, but I think @Hanzou ’s original comment was more to do with who won and how than who lost.  Ryan Hall is a unique talent.  I’m not sure his tactics would work against higher level competition, but he brings something different to the table.  I can see how that might lead to a comment about it being a win for BJJ.  That he beat BJ Penn is relevant only in that Hall caught another high level BJJ guy.  If he submitted Penn, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that he would have caught someone less skilled than a guy whose nickname is “the prodigy.”


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2018)

Steve said:


> I may be wrong, but I think @Hanzou ’s original comment was more to do with who won and how than who lost.  Ryan Hall is a unique talent.  I’m not sure his tactics would work against higher level competition, but he brings something different to the table.  I can see how that might lead to a comment about it being a win for BJJ.  That he beat BJ Penn is relevant only in that Hall caught another high level BJJ guy.  If he submitted Penn, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that he would have caught someone less skilled than a guy whose nickname is “the prodigy.”


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## JR 137 (Dec 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> LoL! By all means, find the post where I say that BJJ is the "be all end all".
> 
> Again, you're making arguments that no one made.


It’s impossible to quote nearly every post you’ve ever made.

You mean I’m the only one who thinks you’re a BJJ fanboy?

I’m wrong about a lot of $hit. Just ask my wife. But this one’s way too easy, even for a guy like me.


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## Anarax (Dec 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Maynard can ***** and moan all he wants, but he deserved to lose that fight (listen to the commentators). Hall dominated him on multiple levels mentally and physically.



Hall was literally running away or falling to the floor at the first sign of trouble. He wasn't engaging and abandoned any technique he threw at the first sign of being countered.


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## Headhunter (Dec 31, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Hall was literally running away or falling to the floor at the first sign of trouble. He wasn't engaging and abandoned any technique he threw at the first sign of being countered.


Agreed. People say UFC is real as it gets....well throwing yourself on the floor when someone's attacking you is a stupid idea in a real fight...even in Mma it's an awful strategy


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Hall was literally running away or falling to the floor at the first sign of trouble. He wasn't engaging and abandoned any technique he threw at the first sign of being countered.



That's not what the stats say:

Gray Maynard vs. Ryan Hall - The Ultimate Fighter 24 Finale - Fight Statistics - ESPN

Hall landed more strikes, and more significant strikes, which is how he won the decision. It's not Hall's fault that Maynard didn't want to go to the mat. Since he didn't want to go to the mat, he got kicked instead.


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed. People say UFC is real as it gets....well throwing yourself on the floor when someone's attacking you is a stupid idea in a real fight...even in Mma it's an awful strategy



Well if that's the case, Maynard shouldn't have bolted in the opposite direction every time Hall butt-scooted towards him.


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## Anarax (Dec 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's not what the stats say:
> 
> Gray Maynard vs. Ryan Hall - The Ultimate Fighter 24 Finale - Fight Statistics - ESPN
> 
> Hall landed more strikes, and more significant strikes, which is how he won the decision. It's not Hall's fault that Maynard didn't want to go to the mat. Since he didn't want to go to the mat, he got kicked instead.


It's difficult to land strikes when your opponent is running away and flopping down at the first sign of trouble. I understand Hall wants to win and he exploited the ref for not calling him on flopping/not engaging. However, his plan was one dimensional and silly. Stand up, throw just enough kicks for points(Maynard caught a few of them), flop down when he counters or moves towards me.


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## Anarax (Dec 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed. People say UFC is real as it gets....well throwing yourself on the floor when someone's attacking you is a stupid idea in a real fight...even in Mma it's an awful strategy



If the refs would simply call fighters on that kind of behavior it would make the fights more dynamic.


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2018)

Anarax said:


> It's difficult to land strikes when your opponent is running away and flopping down at the first sign of trouble. I understand Hall wants to win and he exploited the ref for not calling him on flopping/not engaging. However, his plan was one dimensional and silly. Stand up, throw just enough kicks for points(Maynard caught a few of them), flop down when he counters or moves towards me.



Except falling into guard IS engaging. Not engaging is seeing Hall fall into open guard and backing away like a scared kitten. If I was fighting someone and they fell on their back I would jump on them and bash their face in.

Unless I was afraid.


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## Anarax (Jan 1, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Except falling into guard IS engaging.


No it's not. Hall getting a takedown then utilizing his jujitsu is engaging, getting taken down then utilizing his jujitsu is engaging. Flopping to the ground and running out the clock after scoring a few points isn't engaging.



Hanzou said:


> Not engaging is seeing Hall fall into open guard and backing away like a scared kitten.


Not even close. Maynard was moving in and pressing forward, Hall decided to flop and wait for the round to be over. Maynard was kicking Hall on the ground, hardly the act of a "scared kitten". 



Hanzou said:


> If I was fighting someone and they fell on their back I would jump on them and bash their face in.


We differ on that approach

Overall, MMA/UFC has changed many of the rules and some of the Refs are more lenient with non-engagement than others. They need to re-evaluate the rules/octagon culture when the rules are exploited and entire strategies are developed that give way for lackluster performances.


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## Steve (Jan 1, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> It’s impossible to quote nearly every post you’ve ever made.
> 
> You mean I’m the only one who thinks you’re a BJJ fanboy?
> 
> I’m wrong about a lot of $hit. Just ask my wife. But this one’s way too easy, even for a guy like me.


A lot of people think immigrants from Guatemala are literally attempting to invade the USA.  Doesn’t make it true.  This place has always trended to mob mentality.  I think it’s human nature.


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## JR 137 (Jan 1, 2019)

Steve said:


> A lot of people think immigrants from Guatemala are literally attempting to invade the USA.  Doesn’t make it true.  This place has always trended to mob mentality.  I think it’s human nature.


Guatemala? That’s just ridiculous. Anyone with any common sense knows the Mexicans are literally trying to invade.


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## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2019)

Anarax said:


> No it's not. Hall getting a takedown then utilizing his jujitsu is engaging, getting taken down then utilizing his jujitsu is engaging. Flopping to the ground and running out the clock after scoring a few points isn't engaging.



He's only running out the clock because Maynard refuses to engage him while he's on his back. According to @Headhunter laying on your back during a MMA fight is a terrible strategy, so Maynard (a D1 NCAA wrestler) should have been easily capable of capitalizing on it.



> Not even close. Maynard was moving in and pressing forward, Hall decided to flop and wait for the round to be over. Maynard was kicking Hall on the ground, hardly the act of a "scared kitten".



So your argument is that Maynard (an accomplished wrestler) can do while Ryan Hall is lying on his *back*?



> We differ on that approach
> 
> Overall, MMA/UFC has changed many of the rules and some of the Refs are more lenient with non-engagement than others. They need to re-evaluate the rules/octagon culture when the rules are exploited and entire strategies are developed that give way for lackluster performances.



Well the problem is that Hall also delivered far more strikes than Maynard did as well, so the latter failed in both departments. He was far too timid, and if you watch the full fight, the commentators say consistently that Maynard needs to stop holding back and just go for it. The problem is that Hall was completely in Maynard's head to the point that Maynard was afraid to go to the ground and afraid to push too much with his striking because he feared getting taken down.


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## Anarax (Jan 4, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> He's only running out the clock because Maynard refuses to engage him while he's on his back.


Incorrect, he landed enough strikes for points then flopped when Maynard pushed forward or checked/grabbed his kicks. The kicking strategy was starting to fail, thus he flopped for that was the only other tactic he could utilize.  



Hanzou said:


> So your argument is that Maynard (an accomplished wrestler) can do while Ryan Hall is lying on his *back*?


Please elaborate 



Hanzou said:


> Well the problem is that Hall also delivered far more strikes than Maynard did as well, so the latter failed in both departments.


It's easy to land kicks then runaway or flop after your opponent starts to check them. 



Hanzou said:


> He was far too timid, and if you watch the full fight, the commentators say consistently that Maynard needs to stop holding back and just go for it.


I'm not overly concerned with what the commentators said, a picture(in this case a video) is worth a thousand words.


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## Hanzou (Jan 5, 2019)

Anarax said:


> Incorrect, he landed enough strikes for points then flopped when Maynard pushed forward or checked/grabbed his kicks. The kicking strategy was starting to fail, thus he flopped for that was the only other tactic he could utilize.



How did the kicking strategy fail if Hall won the match?




> Please elaborate



Sorry, typo on my part; Are you saying that there was nothing Maynard could do when Hall flopped on his back except run away?



> It's easy to land kicks then runaway or flop after your opponent starts to check them.



You think it's easy to intimidate a professional fighter to the point where he won't fight you while you're on your back? Keep in mind, this professional fighter has a D1 NCAA wrestling background.




> I'm not overly concerned with what the commentators said, a picture(in this case a video) is worth a thousand words.



Check out Maynard's face vs Hall's face after the fight.


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## Anarax (Jan 11, 2019)

Hello again, it's been a busy week


Hanzou said:


> How did the kicking strategy fail if Hall won the match?


Hall has sloppy and lazy kicks, thus Maynard was able to avoid and grab some of them. Hall knows that he can always flop if his kicks fail, that's what causes him to not develop other aspects of his game.



Hanzou said:


> Are you saying that there was nothing Maynard could do when Hall flopped on his back except run away?


Hall was the one fleeing from engagement, hence *he *flopped when Maynard pressed in. 



Hanzou said:


> You think it's easy to intimidate a professional fighter to the point where he won't fight you while you're on your back? Keep in mind, this professional fighter has a D1 NCAA wrestling background.


If anyone was intimidated it was Hall, not Maynard. Hall literally turned his back and sprinted away from Maynard.



Hanzou said:


> Check out Maynard's face vs Hall's face after the fight.


If the Ref called Hall on his flopping the outcome would have been different. Given that he didn't, Hall hid in his safe space until he got enough points for the round.


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