# Latest TOW Sophisticated Basics



## AHinnebusch (Feb 5, 2004)

Hey all I have just posted the latest Tip Of the Week.

You can view it here:
http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeek.html#Week24

If you have problems viewing any of the TOWs please do not hesitate to contact me.

Cheers,
Andrew


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## Michael Billings (Feb 5, 2004)

Cool tip and great job as usual.  I was backing up TOW's now in case something happens to them.  Have you recovered the weeks 11 - 15?

-Michael


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## Rick Wade (Feb 5, 2004)

It must be great to have the oportunity to work or let Mr. Tatum work on you.  Just kidding.  Keep them coming.

Thanks
Rick


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## AHinnebusch (Feb 5, 2004)

It really is, he has amazing speed and incredible control.  Seeing him in vidinplay is one thing but seeing him move live is really impressive.


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## Rick Wade (Feb 5, 2004)

I envy you and everyone that lives near an American Kenpo School.

Your in Kenpo
Rick


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## jeffkyle (Feb 5, 2004)

This was a great TOW.   
I have seen Mr. Tatum in person and Andrew is right...it is impressive.  
:asian: :asian:


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## Rick Wade (Feb 5, 2004)

I have seen it a couple of times.
What is "There is no place like 127.0.0.1?"

Thanks Rick


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 5, 2004)

Can somebody or you request Mr Tatum to have a knife defense technique on his web site ????

thanks and look forward to


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## jeffkyle (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rick Wade _
> *I have seen it a couple of times.
> What is "There is no place like 127.0.0.1?"
> 
> Thanks Rick *



It is a computer geek thing.  It is a loopback IP address.  If you ping it you will be pinging yourself.

So the phrase is saying "There is no place like home."  But in computer terms.


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## Robbo (Feb 6, 2004)

All I have to say is WOW,

All you guys and gals are unbelievable about what you can blow out of proportion.

Here's a thought, why don't you discuss the TOW and add your own twist or set of basic motions that can be combined into a sophisticated movement.

I know, I know, it's crazy, but somebody might learn something.

Not feeling the Kenpo Brotherly love,
Rob


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Good point, Robbo--I like it because I've been trying to make it.

Could I ask what you thought about the Tip, and its applicability to your own practice?

Thanks.


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## kenpoangel (Feb 6, 2004)

Have a great Kenpo Day,

Angela


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Ooooh, a, "barrage of questions." My goodness. Got outargued, didja?
> 
> Axly, the hell with this...conversation. I'm perfectly willing to have folks go back though any and all of my posts, warts and all, and judge for themselves.  I repeat my recommendation that, similarly, anybody who's interested take a look at the posts of MJS, Cool, Touch, and judge their uses and their manners for themselves.
> ...



Yes, correct Robert.  I'll admit that I come off as cocky, sounding like I know all that there is too know, even though I dont.  Actually, if I did, then I wouldnt be training in ANY art cuz I'd already know it all, right?

What I meant by that Rob, is that you are just as cocky as the rest of us.  Only difference is that at least I have the stones to admit it!!!!

Oh and as for the tip....believe it or not, I actually thought it was very good.  Like Angela said, depending on how she throws the punch, will determine how Larry responds.  The faster she went, the faster he'd have to go.  IMO, the best way to avoid people saying if it will work or not, is to first do it quick.  By doing this, it takes away any doubt that the tech. didnt work.  Then by going back and giving that detailed example people can see what happened.  

Mike


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## jeffkyle (Feb 6, 2004)

> _
> and ludicrous speeds.
> 
> 
> ...


_ 


Ludicrous speed.....GO!   hahahaha!  I have the DVD of that movie!  I love it!  Thanks for the smile Angela.

_


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## kenpoangel (Feb 6, 2004)

Who does not train in the MA but wanted to say something about these postings:

To all...
I am sure all your instructors have taught you to the fullest of their abilities and knowledge.

It is for this reason, I refuse to know what you know, learn what you learn, and be like you are...

You have all made me feel better about my NRA membership and my military handgun training.

In my fight, this would have already been settled.

Have a great Kenpo day.

Sincerely,

Glock


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## jeffkyle (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I was wondering what you thought about the latest Tip? And how you'd apply its principle to your training? Or the exact reasons that you wouldn't buy the whole idea of a, "sophisticated basic?" *



I really like sophisticated basics...like in the movie The Perfect Weapon.  
The part at the High School Football Field when "Jeff" is a teenager and gets into it with the football players....he does an outqward parry that doubles as a finger point and says "I think we are!"

I always think about that...and like how cool, yet simple, the whole thing is.  :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Of course, there's strength and then there's strength. Guys err when then define all strength as the ability to lift dead weight.

And while it does seem--seem--that real attackers will always be bigger, one can't always be sure that women will be smaller, or that men will be bigger. 

I've repeatedly worked with women who are taller than I am. I know more than one woman black belt who is damn near my size and strength, and I've met at least one who is bigger. 

And of all the people I know who I really, really don't want to get into a knock-down drag out with, one is a woman about 5' tall who bent an old, rolled-steel filing cabinet so that they had to torch it open with a reverse punch. Another is a guy who may be shorter than her, and who is stronger than me, pound for pound.


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## kenpoangel (Feb 6, 2004)

You've said something that DIDNT make me laugh 

Seriously, I do agree and THAT is why I get so nuts when people say we don't train realistically at our studio.  Ya' really have no idea (well some of you may) what it's like to have Clyde, William or DEXTER (WHO IS 6'9") screaming down on you in a technique line.  No there is no "threat" there but it's still real none the less.  I've seen people bounce off Will's punch in 5 Swords, so if you don't REALLY block him you will be on your butt.  He's not holding any punches (so to speak) so when I learn my technique and I have to do them in that studio it is real folks and if that's something you still can't get through your heads and believe, then I guess I'll have to say what Clyde has said SO many times before,,,just come to the Advanced Class on Wed night from 7:30pm to 8:30pm PST and just WATCH !

It really is that simple.  Seein is believin and none of us crawl out of there with broken bones, teeth or pride.  Ok ... maybe the pride is a little bumped from time to time but hell on a good day in class, that all comes back shiny too 

On with your trainin people!

Back to the mats,

Angela


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2004)

Angela I'm happy you have freinds that think they can solve all there problems by just shooting people. I've worked in places where people who think like that finaly do. Good thing I wasn't working there any longer. Anyways, I am not admitting guilt, but I am sorry you think that you were targeted for your gender; because, your comments were all it took.  
Sean


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## kenpoangel (Feb 6, 2004)

You CAN'T be that out of "Touch" that you can't see that he was joking,

Good grief...and they say women are touchy!

Back to the mats,

Angela

p.s.
Look DanC I'm still light today


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

May I suggest re-reading the first page in this thread, with particular attention to "Touch's" remark:

"I just watched the latest tip of the week and then read on the Kenponet that Angella didn't throw a real attack because she was afraid that she would get hurt. My point is if a female is pulling her attacks because she doesn't feel her instructor has the control to handle it without hurting her, perhaps real attacks are never dealt with in that school."

The statement is followed by "Cool," claiming that, "what she did is full of balony. I forgot what belt she is. She is scared," and by "MJS," writing that, "Sean- I read that also. Due to the trouble that I may start, I think for now, I'll remain silent."

It is exactly a matter of patronizing a woman martial artist because she is a woman, as well as a matter of grinding some other weird little axe.

Personally, I'd suggest that issues like, "fear," and "intimidation," are absolutely a part of martial arts training. I could tell you a funny story or three about what happens to you when you hit Angela, but what's the point? Instead, I'll tell you this--I've been doing it for six-seven years now, since green belt, and I still have butterflies and more right before advanced classes. I still hear my heart pound right before I start to spar. I  still think that if you're never afraid or intimidated, you're either insensitive, disconnected, or out of your mind. 

Starbuck was right: I WILL HAVE NO MAN IN MY BOAT WHO IS NOT AFRAID OF A WHALE.

It is quite proper to have a little fear. Tunes you up, cuts down on those stupid mistakes--and reminds you that where I train, at least, you can get damaged in ways that are going to take some serious recovery time if you are not careful. And even then, accidents can happen...

The problem is dealing with it, not suppressing it and then swaggering about.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Again, I invite interested readers (whoever the hell that would be at this point) to go back, check the first page of this thread, and see if I misquoted anyobdy or changed the context in which they wrote. It did look to me as though Mike was agreeing, and that is of course a matter of interpretation--an interpretation that I suspect many would be likely to make, but (as Mike says) perhaps not the correct one. 

I'd also recommend considering how you want to take Mike's advice on how to do a teaching video properly, "Oh and as for the tip....believe it or not, I actually thought it was very good. Like Angela said, depending on how she throws the punch, will determine how Larry responds. The faster she went, the faster he'd have to go. IMO, the best way to avoid people saying if it will work or not, is to first do it quick. By doing this, it takes away any doubt that the tech. didnt work. Then by going back and giving that detailed example people can see what happened."

Again, I suggest this: posting your own videos, or discussing exactly how you teach, or explaining how you'd handle a concept like, "sophisticated basics," so others can get a peek.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> 
> 
> Again, I suggest this: posting your own videos, or discussing exactly how you teach, or explaining how you'd handle a concept like, "sophisticated basics," so others can get a peek. *



Why people can't have their own opinion about something they see ??????

you have yours, why not other????


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Again, I invite interested readers (whoever the hell that would be at this point) to go back, check the first page of this thread, and see if I misquoted anyobdy or changed the context in which they wrote. It did look to me as though Mike was agreeing, and that is of course a matter of interpretation--an interpretation that I suspect many would be likely to make, but (as Mike says) perhaps not the correct one.
> 
> I'd also recommend considering how you want to take Mike's advice on how to do a teaching video properly, "Oh and as for the tip....believe it or not, I actually thought it was very good. Like Angela said, depending on how she throws the punch, will determine how Larry responds. The faster she went, the faster he'd have to go. IMO, the best way to avoid people saying if it will work or not, is to first do it quick. By doing this, it takes away any doubt that the tech. didnt work. Then by going back and giving that detailed example people can see what happened."
> ...



Again Robert. you simply assumed that I was commenting negativly about the tip, when in fact, I said what I did, cuz I knew no matter what I said, you would take it the wrong way.  

As for the video.  Let me explain to you again Robert.  Seems to me that considering you've been teaching for as long as you've had, that in all your time you have never been questioned by a student??  Hmm...makes me wonder.  Anyway, let me explain.  By doing a tech. quickly, it leaves the viewers with little doubt.  I've been questioned many times by students who ask, "Well, would that work if he was realy resisting?"  I'm not gonna tell them, "Well, yes it would due to the fact that it has been proven by Master X and in life and death battles."  No, instead I'm going to show them that I can do the tech. and make it work....with someone resisting.  Again, this is just the way that I go about doing it, but I can see that just cuz its different than you, you think that its wrong. Well ya know Rob, we all train differently.  

If Larry or Clyde or you teach differently, then fine, but that doesnt make my teaching methods bad.  I guess in your eyes it does.

After doing it quickly, I then go about with the explaination of the tech. showing the finer points.  I then have them pair off and do the tech. Slowly and then gradually picking up the pace with the opp. throwing the punch faster and giving more resistance.

You see Robert, all you had to do is ask.  All of this could have been avoided but instead you chose to assume that I was ragging on the tech, when in fact I was doing no such thing.

The problem here Rob is that no matter what the comment is, good or bad, there is always a misunderstanding.  Nobody else can have or give any feedback? Nobody else can do it different than your Inst cuz he does it the best?  Very poor attitude to have IMO!!!

Mike Slosek


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

"As for the video. Let me explain to you again Robert. Seems to me that considering you've been teaching for as long as you've had, that in all your time you have never been questioned by a student?? Hmm...makes me wonder. Anyway, let me explain. By doing a tech. quickly, it leaves the viewers with little doubt. I've been questioned many times by students who ask, "Well, would that work if he was realy resisting?" I'm not gonna tell them, "Well, yes it would due to the fact that it has been proven by Master X and in life and death battles." No, instead I'm going to show them that I can do the tech. and make it work....with someone resisting. Again, this is just the way that I go about doing it, but I can see that just cuz its different than you, you think that its wrong. Well ya know Rob, we all train differently."

I see. So, a) there's no assertion here that I'm too dumb to understand in "let me explain it to you again," b) no suggestion that I don't know how to teach, in, "teaching for as long as you've had...you have never been questioned...makes me wonder," c) no claim that Mr. Tatum doesn't know how to do a teaching video properly, in, "it leaves the viewers with little doubt," d) no putting words in anybody's mouth in, "I'm not gonna tell them," and e) no hint that you train properly and I don't in, "Instead I'm going to show them that I can do the tech and make it work...with someone resisting...ya know Rob, we all train differently."

Huh. It must just be me.

On your description--when teaching, is it the point to show the student that you can do a technique fast and strong, or is it the point to teach the student the basics of the technique so that they can eventually learn to do it fast and strong themselves? 

Oh, and two more things--a) you might want to scope out, "Cool's" posts on other threads before you agree with him too much, and b) it'll be easier for me to see what it is your school does if you'll post your own videos, or at least offer your own detailed descriptions of the ways you teach concepts such as, "sophisticated basics."


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> 
> Again, I suggest this: posting your own videos, or discussing exactly how you teach, or explaining how you'd handle a concept like, "sophisticated basics," so others can get a peek. *


Those are available for sale. I would be happy to post the website for you. I think you will agree that if you are preforming a move correctly what ever gets in the way will be effected. And to be physicaly fast you must hit a target so you arent putting on the brakes as when punching in the air, and I was suggesting that spirutual fitness is the  master key for speed and power because it removes the mental brakes so to speak and you took it as an attack on women and now yourself. How can I teach you what we do, if what we do is ostensibly offending you?
Sean


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *"As for the video. Let me explain to you again Robert. Seems to me that considering you've been teaching for as long as you've had, that in all your time you have never been questioned by a student?? Hmm...makes me wonder. Anyway, let me explain. By doing a tech. quickly, it leaves the viewers with little doubt. I've been questioned many times by students who ask, "Well, would that work if he was realy resisting?" I'm not gonna tell them, "Well, yes it would due to the fact that it has been proven by Master X and in life and death battles." No, instead I'm going to show them that I can do the tech. and make it work....with someone resisting. Again, this is just the way that I go about doing it, but I can see that just cuz its different than you, you think that its wrong. Well ya know Rob, we all train differently."
> 
> I see. So, a) there's no assertion here that I'm too dumb to understand in "let me explain it to you again," b) no suggestion that I don't know how to teach, in, "teaching for as long as you've had...you have never been questioned...makes me wonder," c) no claim that Mr. Tatum doesn't know how to do a teaching video properly, in, "it leaves the viewers with little doubt," d) no putting words in anybody's mouth in, "I'm not gonna tell them," and e) no hint that you train properly and I don't in, "Instead I'm going to show them that I can do the tech and make it work...with someone resisting...ya know Rob, we all train differently."
> ...



You assuming again Robert??  

A- "Let me explain again"--Just trying to reiterate my point to you again about what I was trying to say.

B--Never said you didnt know how to teach.  Dont put words into my mouth please.  I was offering an example of how I teach.

C--Never said that the video was bad or that he didnt know what he was doing.  I was making an observation.

D--"I'm not gonna tell them"--That simply means that I'm not going to tell them that this tech works cuz someone told me that it would.  Instead I'm going to show them that it works.  I want them to see that I can do it, and that they can make it work also.

E-- Never said that you're training was wrong here Rob.  As I've said before, we all train differently.  I was giving an example of the way i train.  I can see that it doesnt meet up to your standards and thats fine.  You're confident with what you're doing and I'm confident with what I'm doing.

There are all types of Inst. Robert.  Some are better at Kata than others, while some excell in SD, and some excell in sparring.  You can have one person who sucks as a teacher, but when it comes to doing SD, he rocks!  We as humans are all unique.  You have your methods of doing something, I have mine, Clyde has his, etc.  Just cuz one person does something a little different, does that make it wrong?

Mike Slosek


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2004)

> it'll be easier for me to see what it is your school does if you'll post your own videos, or at least offer your own detailed descriptions of the ways you teach concepts such as, "sophisticated basics." [/B]



LOL! Thats a good one.  Hmm...If I remember correctly, back on the KN, there was a discussion about mult. attackers.  I gave my POV and you of course questioned it.  I then asked you what you would do in that situation and you replied that you'd run, which of course is a smart thing to do.  I then asked you, well, thats fine and dandy, but what if you cant run.  If I recall correctly, you never replied back to me. Hmm.  Why not?  You sit here and constantly challenge others but when the challenge is offered to you, you always find some way to talk your way out of it.

Besides even if I did offer my ways of doing the basics, you'd probably say in a round about way that it was incorrect cuz its not the way you do them.

Mike Slosek


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Well, Mike, I agree with your generalizations at the end. 

I suspect that if you posted videos, and I commented EXACTLY as you've commented, you might take a bit of umbrage. 

I refer other readers to the record of Mike's posts, and my own

And Sean? here are your words on the, "spiritual fitness," issue, which you wrote in specific response to one of Angela's comments:

"Your very words suggest a spiritual fitness issue and with that you will have trouble being fast because speed and power come from a willingness to commit all your forces, muscles, and what not hurling toward a target no matter what rank it holds. You then go on to suggest that we are all in the same boat as you. That is very funny"

I should be very happy to see one of your videos; could you post a link to it, as you mentioned?


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *"You sit here and constantly challenge others but when the challenge is offered to you, you always find some way to talk your way out of it."
> 
> 
> Well, as Jack Benny usedta say, "Weeelllll...." *



And a challenge was offered to me to call Clyde and I did.  We had a great chat and I intend on calling him again.  Heres an idea Robert.  Rather than sit here and go back and forth, why dont you PM your number to me and I'd be more than happy to give you a call.  I think that actually talking to someone, rather than fighting online is a much better approach.

Mike Slosek


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Sorry, nope. Unlike Clyde, who's crazy (in a really good way) I choose to carry on such...discussions...ONLY in public. It's an academic thang. And, I might add, some of your...let's just say, "personal remarks," do not encourage talking to you on the phone. My bad, perhaps; Clyde certainly mentioned that he enjoyed your phone conversation.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Well, Mike, I agree with your generalizations at the end.
> 
> I suspect that if you posted videos, and I commented EXACTLY as you've commented, you might take a bit of umbrage.
> ...


 Go to Kenpo2000.com you will find a whole mess of tapes on any subject you like. As far as veiwing me screwing up kenpo I'm sure I'm on a highlight vid somewhere at some rank.
Sean


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## Michael Billings (Feb 6, 2004)

Guys, gimme a break!!

-Michael


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Well, Mike, I guess you've just got bigger...stones. Though could I ask, again, that you offfer some online Tips of your own, in one form or another?

And, "Cool?" I do listen. And I read carefully. That seems to be the problem. 

Are you still thinking about starting to train again? Why not write about that, and discuss exactly who you used to train with, and how things were done, rather than doing stuff like hassling women who get on a forum to ask questions about their kid's training?

Except for Mike, I still don't see any details in what anybody has to say about this latest Tip.


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## kenpoangel (Feb 6, 2004)

"After doing it quickly, I then go about with the explaination of the tech. showing the finer points. I then have them pair off and do the tech. Slowly and then gradually picking up the pace with the opp. throwing the punch faster and giving more resistance."

I am pretty sure I explained that WAY earlier that Larry Tatum (and the rest of the class) does do this, IN class and AT seminars.  When you're showing TIPS from week to week, the point here is to give people an IDEA of what is happening at our school and for you to build on in ANYWAY you choose to.

Not sure how much clearer I can make that other than come to Advanced Class on any given Wed night from 7:30pm - 8:30pm IF you care to see what's really happening at the school.

Otherwise, it's all just food for thought and not a way of trying to get people to "change their training methods" but only try and give you something to add to or take away from it.

Capice!

Back to the mats,

Angela

p.s.
Swatting at Winged Monkeys 
:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Well, I may be goofy and I certainly have never been cool. 

BUT I STILL TRAIN KENPO. And yourself?


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kenpoangel _
> *"After doing it quickly, I then go about with the explaination of the tech. showing the finer points. I then have them pair off and do the tech. Slowly and then gradually picking up the pace with the opp. throwing the punch faster and giving more resistance."
> 
> I am pretty sure I explained that WAY earlier that Larry Tatum (and the rest of the class) does do this, IN class and AT seminars.  When you're showing TIPS from week to week, the point here is to give people an IDEA of what is happening at our school and for you to build on in ANYWAY you choose to.
> ...



Point taken Angela.  That was all robert had to say.  As for coming to the class....well, next time I'm planning a vac. maybe I'll come to Cali.  Again, considering that I dont live in CA. or really know what its like to train at your school, I only can go by what I read on here.

Mike


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## kenpoangel (Feb 6, 2004)

IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT ROBERT! (a la the Brady Bunch and the feuding Jan and Marsha Brady)

Mike I did say this earlier.  Earlier in this strand, in other posts on Kenponet and well, earlier just in general.

I've been saying it all along but I guess people are only willing to listen if Robert says it?  Don't even let this be about a girl thing huh?  Don't worry my feelings aren't hurt.  If I had one this would have done it though...lemme tell ya' :shrug: j/k seriously.

NO ONE is trying to get ANYONE to change their training methods.  As F'd up as it seems (no wait...that's unbelievable...my bad) we're all here for the same thing and that's to train to the best of our abilities to get us out of a tight spot SHOULD it occur.  I don't walk into my studio looking for that "threat" nor do I find it there once I'm inside.  Do I train with a bunch of die hards?  Absolutely, but I know at the end of that hour, we're gonna walk off the mats, go eat sushi and drink the coldest Kirin this side of the Missippi (purposefully misspelled in case Robt's watchin' )  THERE IS NO THREAT FROM THESE PEOPLE but we do train realistically.  Will it be the same from the streets?  No...CAUSE THE THREAT IS THERE!  Will my spiritual fitness kick in?  You damned skippy because the shock from it being th real thing will make me mad and when I get mad well I get scared and when I get scared I get mad all over again and oh boy....they won't like it when I'm angry (ask Mr. McGee).

Anyway, I just hope that everyone can just sit back and take a little bit of something from the TOW and not sit down with the attitude of, "TOW is up...cool!  Let's see what we can TEAR APART this week!"

Thanks for listening,,,

NOW BACK TO THE MATS,

Angela


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## Michael Billings (Feb 6, 2004)

====================
Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-

====================


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 6, 2004)

I understood what Angela meant by pulling her strike a little.  The few times I threw an attack at Mr. Mills with intent, speed, and power, I got pasted pretty good (Although, it wasn't as bad as some.... who shall remain nameless   ).  It was for a tip and not a demonstration of sparring skill.  Even BJJ'ers and Judoka are taught certain moves at less than normal speed and with less than normal resistance.  It was after all a * TIP* not a excerpt from "Street fights caught on tape." Take the tips for what they are intended to be.   

What I think about the effectiveness of the material being shown has nothing to do with the fact that the tips are helping to promote the art of kenpo.  In this regard, I think they are serving their general purpose.  The AKKI catches flak just about everytime we release a video on the website.  Fortunately for us, we don't give a damn.  Mr. Mills has released around 6-7 videos for the members of the AKKI that include training material in the various aspects of our particular system.  Most outsiders will never get to see these because they would be more interested in complaining about them than they would watching them.  

However, if they are ever released to the general public it will be done knowing full well that people will ***** and moan about them.  That's just a part of putting something out in the public eye.  DEAL WITH IT!!!

When mathematicians think they have solved one of the millenium problems, they must publish their solution which must withstand public scrutiny for a set period of time. If you publish a TIP that can't stand up to the scrutiny of the public eye you have a couple of choices to make;  do you try to explain it?  yell at people who don't *GET IT*!!!?  Or do you say,"Who cares?"

It's your call.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 6, 2004)

I think it takes a good intructor or at least one interested in his students and the art he teachs to put something like "Tip OF The Week" out there on the net.
Sure fault may b found in what he dose or the ay such an such attak was made but these are training tips not real street/combate situations. 
Those that do not like such sites or think hey can do better always have the oppertunity to put their stuff on the net. But be aware someone else may find ault in what you do.
(I know Ive been there and will be again soon most likely)
 When someone trys to help his students and the art he belives in and teaches they sometimes make mistakes in judgement as to what they present and how it is presented at other times thy present what they want (with mistakes and or flawd technique) for verious reasons. Not all people are aware of how filmed material will look to others. Not all are film majors or have a good eye for what "others" will see. These people put out a product that appeals to them and that is as it should be.
Haveing a 5 page or so dialog on you said , no you said, no im right , no your not , has little to do with the TOW. So if you care to disscuss weather tip (insirt number) could be done a little differently (in content with the art being taught) do so , otherwise please stop wasting everyones time and take it to pm or email 
thank you
Sheldon


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## Maltair (Feb 6, 2004)

6 pages of nothing! :shrug: 

Anyway, sophisticated basics. Are they the little extra shots you get it in if they are availabile? Like in Crossing Talon, the back hammer fist after the elbow strike. Or is it more like on Lone Kimono when you twist his arm out to get a better shot on the elbow?


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Well, my understanding is that a, "sophisticated basic," is a basic move that's applied in a sophisticated way, so that it has a use or effect that's more-complex than its first, "original," use or effect. 

The "Encyclopedia of Kenpo," defines "sophisticated basics," as, "a single basic move that produces multiple results," and goes on to note that, "sophisticated simplicity," is, "the ability to compound simple basics into multiple action. Moves that appear to have only one purpose, but actually produce a number of results."

If I recollect right--and I'm not sure that I do at this point--the week's Tip used a "basic" front kick in a sophisticated way.

There are a number of visible examples of this "high up," in kenpo. For example in Conquering Shield, often taught at Green belt, uses a basic inward block, as well as elbows and a heel palm claw, in a "sophisticated," way. However, there are examples of this right at the start: Mace of Aggression, for example, also teaches applying a basic right inward block in a fashion that give it multiple effects.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltair _
> *6 pages of nothing! :shrug:
> 
> Anyway, sophisticated basics. Are they the little extra shots you get it in if they are availabile? Like in Crossing Talon, the back hammer fist after the elbow strike. Or is it more like on Lone Kimono when you twist his arm out to get a better shot on the elbow? *


 sophisticated basics are those moves that are singular in purpose but produce multiple results. In this case it was a knee strike also happens to be the first half of a possilble kick to the knee.


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## Michael Billings (Feb 6, 2004)

Touch'O'Death.  You can also think of the punch in Darting Mace, which may hyperextend or break the elbow on the way to the face.

-Michael


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## ob2c (Feb 7, 2004)

Boy, what you miss when you are away from this site just a little bit! How long has that TOW been out, and it has already generated all this "discussion".

Instead of tearing down something someone is doing to help the arts, why don't we all go out, try out these tips, and see if they work. I have, and they do. All of them- even that controversial ground fighting TOW. And, yes, I did it with mounted grapplers. They don't fly as well as the average TKD guy (sorry, angel, but the women took one look at my grinning face and refused to sit on me). On the other hand, the grapplers were far more surprised to learn that they could fly in the first place.

Sophisticated basics- come on guys, aren't you doing this already? What is wrong with putting it out there for everyone to get a handle on it? All styles do this, I think the Japanese arts call it "bunkai." Once you have the base move, why not look at this application?

I fail to see the controversy here. One of the best Kenpoists today puts out free tips, and instead of trying what he puts out and discussing the results, we get the web saturated with conjecture and criticism. You could expect that from a bunch of twisted grapplers and insecure "karate-do" people (and, no, I don't disrespect either group, they just tend to be a little exocentric). But, come on, most everyone here is a Kenpoist. Sort of disgusting, really.

And, while we are all getting into such things, mine is bigger than yours any how. So, I must be better, right?


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## Seig (Feb 7, 2004)

This is a reminder that the EPAK forum is in fact strongly moderated.  The nonsense that has gone on in this thread justifies that need.  Michael Billings is the primary Kenpo Moderator and tends to be much more level headed and forgiving than most.  As Mr. Billings is busy at the moment, I steped in.  All material that I felt was not relative, was inflammatory, insulting, or rude, has been removed.  I do apologize if this interrupts the continuity of the thread a bit.  Get this back on topic and keep it polite and respectfull.
Seig
MT Admin Team


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 9, 2004)

I have a question about the last tip of the week: Conditioning a Sparring Opponent.

Does Larry Tatum teach people to drop their hands, like he did in that clip, each time they kick?  If so, what's to keep your opponent from "conditioning" your face.  Just a question?


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## Michael Billings (Feb 9, 2004)

Just a thought.  

You know how many times in class doing basics  AND in sparring class, I have to remind them their leg is not on a pulley that you have to pull down with your hand to get your leg up.  Then I spoof pulling the rope (dropping my hands) while doing a front kick.

Then there is the notorious "flap your arms like a chicken" when doing a roundhouse, or the "reach out with the back hand to make sure a wall does not fall on me" when doing a high roundhouse or side kick.

All of these crack me up, but are errors I see well into Brown, expecially if you are fighting tournament rules with no contact to the face before Brown.

I hope you are not slamming the TOW, but rather making a humorous comment ... because that is how I am going to treat it!!  Just another "habit" that has to be unlearned.  But once again, in this context, was he dropping it for dramatic effect or to stress the point.  It was not a fight, but an exhibition or demonstration of a concept.

-Michael


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## kenpoangel (Feb 9, 2004)

And this topic was mentioned on both this forum and the Kenponet as to why the hands were "dropped",

For camera angle and for affect as you said.  It's just a means of letting everyone see what is happening.

I can assure you we get hacked on PLENTY about keeping our guard up in/during class time.

Back to the mats,

Angela

p.s.
Clyde does the chicken thing with us as well when he sees us drop our guard during kicks.  He starts yelling, "Funky Chicken!" and clucking.  Needless to say it does go through your mind when you're on the mats and he's NOT there and you realize you have dropped your guard.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 9, 2004)

It was just a question.  I am well aware of the various teaching techniques.  I was simply inquiring as to the reason for dropping his hands.  Something that I hope I don't do when the adrenaline kicks in.  I've been pasted plenty of times for dropping my hands (thanks Reggie!!!), this is the only reason I asked the question.  I was not aware that it had been discussed.  Thanks for the reply.  As I said earlier, I may not always agree with the methods being used but at least the TOW are helping to promote kenpo.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *It was just a question.  I am well aware of the various teaching techniques.  I was simply inquiring as to the reason for dropping his hands.  Something that I hope I don't do when the adrenaline kicks in.  I've been pasted plenty of times for dropping my hands (thanks Reggie!!!), this is the only reason I asked the question.  I was not aware that it had been discussed.  Thanks for the reply.  As I said earlier, I may not always agree with the methods being used but at least the TOW are helping to promote kenpo. *


 Its clear that the examples they choose to use to illistrate certain points only seem to bring up more questions. we can only assume that if we see a practice, that is what they do. My first thought, on the hand drop, was to just kick the hand as if it were the target. 
Sean


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## Michael Billings (Feb 10, 2004)

TOD, that is about the silliest thing I have seen you post.  You really assume that what you see on a TOW is how they really fight?  

Geez man, talk about literal, do you believe everything you read also?  I know I am sounding harsh here, and apologize for it ... but when someone, specifically here in the context, Mr. Tatum, puts something out re: his interpretation of application of Kenpo, and when all people can do is try to shred it ... it is disheartening, and a statement about the Kenpo "family" in general.

I can also always be critical and use analytical judgment regarding what I read and see, however, that is tempered by the circumstances in which it was offered and the context.  

If I noticed him dropping his hands and we, or one of my students were sparring, that would be one thing, and like you, I would attempt to take serious advantage of it (especially if I got him reacting that way consistantly, hee-hee).  But when it is in the nature of a demonstration or to make a point or filming something ... well, I have said it before, gimme a break - and you can note something like this and comment, without the assumtion that it is more than what it is, something filmed for the camera.

Sorry if I am sounding so petty here, I just get irritated when someone has the guts to put part of themselves out on the internet, especially someone as high ranking as Mr. Tatum, or Mr. Mills, then people don't appreciate their offering.

OLD KENPO ADDAGE: "How many Kenpo Black  Belts does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Answer - 99, one to screw in the lightbulb, and 98 to say 'That's not the way Mr. Parker showed me'".  Mr. Tatum was close to Mr. Parker for many, many years and what he offers is very close to what Mr. Parker probably intended to be marketed as his Kenpo. 

  :soapbox:   - In retrospect, this rant was not really about you Sean.  I usually appreciate your posts.  Rather it is about that group of individuals who are so wrapped up in themselves that they don't appreciate the sharing of knowledge as is being done in this context.  I know you usually take everything in, you don't always agree with it, but you take it in.

As Sigung says: 
Student of Kenpo,
-Michael Billings


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *TOD, that is about the silliest thing I have seen you post.  You really assume that what you see on a TOW is how they really fight?
> 
> Geez man, talk about literal, do you believe everything you read also?  I know I am sounding harsh here, and apologize for it ... but when someone, specifically here in the context, Mr. Tatum, puts something out re: his interpretation of application of Kenpo, and when all people can do is try to shred it ... it is disheartening, and a statement about the Kenpo "family" in general.
> ...


I wasn't exactly slamming the vid clip, I was being trying to be ambiguous to see if I could get the thread rolling again   I understand that it takes a lot of guts to put these clips out for everyone to scrutinize; however, why are Mr. Tatum's students shocked about some critisism? I will stand by saying that what is not said is far more interesting than what is said; however, I feel the lessons are pretty strait forward and easy to understand. Having been involved in hudreds of vid productions in my old ARMY days, I will say he could have rehearsed his opening statements a little more. No General would have settled for what has been accepted and aired. That being said I realize that there is a school of thought that would rather be off the cuff than rehearsed. Its all good.
Sean


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2004)

I prefer not to have words placed in my mouth, frankly. I'm not shocked by criticism, Sean. I just like it to be real criticism--which in part  means being clear about what you're doing, and tough with yourself about motive

Sorry, but I don't agree about the way the Tips are filmed. I've seen several as they're being done--and they're pretty much extempore. I prefer that for these particular things, since it preserves a little more of the spontaneity of good teaching. Different approach, as you mentioned--why not critique the approach for what it is, rather that what it ain't, unless there's a good reason?

For example, I'd critique a number of your responses for, a) what appears to be a lack of understanding of the goal, the topic; b) a tendency to damn with fain praise; c) a tendency to end you "critiques," with a claim that, in fact, this was done badly.

All that being said, what did you think of the other videos by Mr. Mills et al, posted lately?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I prefer not to have words placed in my mouth, frankly. I'm not shocked by criticism, Sean. I just like it to be real criticism--which in part  means being clear about what you're doing, and tough with yourself about motive
> 
> Sorry, but I don't agree about the way the Tips are filmed. I've seen several as they're being done--and they're pretty much extempore. I prefer that for these particular things, since it preserves a little more of the spontaneity of good teaching. Different approach, as you mentioned--why not critique the approach for what it is, rather that what it ain't, unless there's a good reason?
> ...


 I havn't watched them all because I spend so much damn time downloading for what I get. That being said what I have watched were a focus on proper methods of execution without them saying it. There is one where he does a backnuckle / backnuckle where I could tell that the key was to pull them off the opposite shoulder for maximum effect(like pulling the string on a bow) The five swords one that I watched did focus on getting your hand back to the hip for the uppercut; however, you kind of have to know what your looking for. Its good dope though.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

And just because I used the term off the cuff and you extemporanious does not mean we are disagreeing on what was done.
Sean


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2004)

First off, Sean, one of the problems with your criticism is that you don't take, "yes," for an answer. I wasn't suggesting that you'd missed something when I wrote, "different approach, as you mentioned," was I? 

Second off, I found the focus in the clips to be kinda off...I wondered about where poeple were looking, and they looked a bit out of range from what I could see...

Of course, it's hard to tell from videos...limited perspective, and all that.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *First off, Sean, one of the problems with your criticism is that you don't take, "yes," for an answer. I wasn't suggesting that you'd missed something when I wrote, "different approach, as you mentioned," was I?
> 
> Second off, I found the focus in the clips to be kinda off...I wondered about where poeple were looking, and they looked a bit out of range from what I could see...
> ...


 If your refering to the Mills, vids I would pay more attention to what they do rather than what they say. To give an example closer to home I watch what Mr. Tatum does(and wasn't even paying attention to Angela until her posts.) If you will notice Mr. Tatum always holds his hands in a hammering position real close to his body. That is bad ***. He isn't mentioning it on the video but he is ready to fire off a fast and hard shot at any second. Reversly his students assume traditional kenpo stances when facing off.(without a shuffle or slight cocking, the lead hand is nearly spent)
Sean


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2004)

Uh...I thought we were discussing these OTHER videos?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Uh...I thought we were discussing these OTHER videos? *


Ok I'll go watch a few and get back to you.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 10, 2004)

Well Robert,

I guess I'm a little curious what YOU think about the other videos.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 10, 2004)

Rather than wait for your reply I thought I might go ahead and comment on statements you made in earlier posts.



> Second off, I found the focus in the clips to be kinda off...



I'm not sure what you meant by this, or for that matter what clip(s) you are specifically referring to.  I do know that all the guys demonstrating specific techniques can move very fast and hit very hard.  

John Connolly (5th) was teaching colored belts how to add a little bit of timing into Five Swords, which at the lower colored belt levels requires explanation of raw upper body mechanics.  He backed away from his demonstration partner a couple of times so that the group of students could get a better look at the upper body movement.  Also, he used open hands so that the students could see his movements better.  Later on they covered some of the tear dropping for power, but you don't get to see this. This was about a 30 second look at an hour long seminar. 

Derek Ence(7th) and Randall Miller(6th or 7th) were kind enough to demonstrate the technique Circling destruction, as done by the AKKI.  The FOCUS here was more on showing you the sequence rather than blistering speed or outrageous power.  I don't get it!!! The AKKI usually gets ragged for moving to fast but when we slow down to show you what we are actually doing we get criticized for not hitting with power.  SPEED IS POWER, when properly controlled.  Oh well.

Josh Lannon (4th) was demonstrating the opening portion of the new brown belt technique Slipping Fans, which is one of my favorites.  It's simple, fast, and effective, but again the clip shows approx. 30 seconds of a 60min seminar.  

Mr. Mills was demonstrating New trapping ideas (again 30s of multiple 60min seminars).  When on stage he generally teaches the raw mechanics of a specific technique, then throughout the seminar he and the rest of the board walk around to help people with the finer mechanics like: how and where to check the leg, what trap to use depending on where your opponent blocks, proper use of forward pressure, etc.  



> I wondered about where poeple were looking, and they looked a bit out of range from what I could see



Many of the instructors may very well have been out of range, but how do you teach a 100+ people in each seminar by crowding your opponent? If the instructors were working the proper depth for a demo, that would be one thing, but in Vegas you can have up to 200 people trying to watch one or two people standing on a stage across a room.  Sometimes you have to be accomodating.  That's why they walk around during the seminar, to make sure you are doing everything right.

I guess that covers most of the obvious questions, but if there are others shoot'em on out here.  There are enough of us AKKI'ers out here to field your questions.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Uh...I thought we were discussing these OTHER videos? *


 I've watched a few more and am only getting about 30 seconds of a whole class. To be negative I can only say they are 30 second commercials for a future AKKI seminar. Do they compare to your semi-extempor three minute productions? Obviously not. Without having watched more than a few, I will say would make excellent reference points for conversations on the internet about specific things shown.
Sean


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2004)

In what way, Sean?

As for "Kenpo Yahoo's," points, I would argue that focusing on, "raw upper body mechanics," with underbelts is precisely the wrong emphasis.

Further, the parries appear to be at fingertip length: any reason for that?

However, video can be quite deceptive: the P.O.V. can easily very much distort things. 

Oh yes: I'm afraid that I do not agree that, "speed is power," even with the quite proper qualification of, "when properly controlled." I'd argue that it would be closer to write that, "form is power," though still somewhat off.

Are there any plans to ship these videos along to, say, Bullshido.com for their comments?

If you're wondering why I'm "being this way," (nobody said that, to be sure), it is because--among other things--the attacks look precisely as convincing as the ones that others were endlessly critiqued for. Personally, I take the argument that this was done to make demonstration and teaching simpler at face value--makes sense to me--and I am perfectly willing to accept the claims that students are informed of this, and shown what a more-serious attack looks like.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *In what way, Sean?
> 
> As for "Kenpo Yahoo's," points, I would argue that focusing on, "raw upper body mechanics," with underbelts is precisely the wrong emphasis.
> ...


 Of course speed is major component of power. Drop a brick on your head from six inches and it will hurt. Put about 30 mph on that bad boy and you will never feel pain again. Explain to me how increasing speed does not increase power again. Your form can be perfect but if you are moving at half speed you are simply not as powerfull. You should know this dude.(I normaly wouldn't call anyone dude, but thats the lingo you guys all use). I hardly qualify my comments about a TOW body's comments as "Endlessly". You know darn well that a thirty second blurb of trying to get everyone in a room on the same page won't even warrant a comment at Bullshido.com or where ever because they know what they are seeing. I personaly don't post there because if there is one place worse than the kenponet, that is it. I will say I noticed in the past that on some clips I've seen on the IKKA website did lack pin action.
Sean
Ps before you catch my mistake, I'll catch it for you. You can't have proper form without moving fast:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> 
> As for "Kenpo Yahoo's," points, I would argue that focusing on, "raw upper body mechanics," with underbelts is precisely the wrong emphasis.
> ...


 I have to ask. If you can't teach body mechanics to lower belts, whom can you teach them too? Wrong emphasis for whom?
Sean


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## Fastmover (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *In what way, Sean?
> 
> I would argue that focusing on, "raw upper body mechanics," with underbelts is precisely the wrong emphasis.
> ...



Since I was the one teaching the seminar in question why dont you explain to me what I should have been placing emphasis?

Certainly body mechanics played a large roll; looking back Ill
have to look at my notes, but I seem to remember discussing executing how to synchronize proper stance changes with the
upper body.  

The point was to show how to develope the power of the body 
using with the speed of the hands. I covered some ideas about how to create a orbital summation with the various methods 
of delivery. 

Again Ill have to look at my notes again.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2004)

Well, first off, instead of location, location, location, I'd say, stances, stances, stances.

It looks like a real difference in approach...I'd argue (and teach) that power comes from the ground up, not from "the body," as such--which is to say, perhaps, the torso?--and not primarily from, "orbital summation," or anything else having to do with hands. Since I was watching "Pearl harbor," on network the other night, I'd describe hands, etc., as, 'the tip of the sworwd." Not the bumper, but the car?

Nor do I agree that, "you can't have proper form without moving fast." I'd would point out that "speed," (and of course there are different types of speed worth discussing) is a byproduct of form and other things. And again, I would argue that of all the attributes one wants to develop, speed's probably LAST on the list.

Could y'all maybe explain, "the power of the body 
using with the speed of the hands...how to create a orbital summation with the various methods of delivery," and how this related to your comments on stancework?

I'd also be interested to see some discussion of the parries, on, "Circling Destruction," in particular...was it just the camera angle that made the parries appear to be executed with the fingers? was it just me?

The other thing that occurs is that speed vs. power perhaps might be viewed as two halves of the same coin, kinda like light being either a particle or a wave depending on your viewpoint, and upon which equations you choose to use to describe what you're talking about...

As for, "endlessly, " in commentary and "thirty second," in video clips excuse me if I'm wrong or have the wrong posters, but I seem to recollect a very great deal--based on fairly short videos--of commentary on other videos recently...

Thanks; I appreciate the discussion.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

Now I have just read on the Kenponet that Old Fat Kenpoka believes Mr. Mills' students are giving up power for speed. Yeah I remember Ed Parker had to slow it down for power as well(ha ha)   
Sean:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Well, first off, instead of location, location, location, I'd say, stances, stances, stances.
> 
> It looks like a real difference in approach...I'd argue (and teach) that power comes from the ground up, not from "the body," as such--which is to say, perhaps, the torso?--and not primarily from, "orbital summation," or anything else having to do with hands. Since I was watching "Pearl harbor," on network the other night, I'd describe hands, etc., as, 'the tip of the sworwd." Not the bumper, but the car?
> ...


Robert people are not cars. If they hit you it will be with a fist, backnuckle, or perhaps a foot. If these weapons are not traveling on the paths of action where they are the most efficiant, your good stance work will amount to nothing. Stances do not deliver the attacks our weapons do. I say stances can be improved on, but your strikes are only as good as the path they travel. You can really do a lot of damage to your shoulder and elbow by ignoring the importance of the distal. By the way which would hurt more a baseball moving at 40 mph or 90mph. given that the mass is the same isn't one more powerfull?


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2004)

Uh...in mentioning cars and bumpers, I was paraphrasing one of Mr. Parker's more-famous adages.

It has been by personal experience (for what that's worth) that the attempt to develop speed, in and of itself, is a complete dead end.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Uh...in mentioning cars and bumpers, I was paraphrasing one of Mr. Parker's more-famous adages.
> 
> It has been by personal experience (for what that's worth) that the attempt to develop speed, in and of itself, is a complete dead end. *


Robert well lets see there are three types of speed: Physical, mental, and perceptual. I'll assume you were talking about physical speed for the sake of argument.
Lets break this down. Speed starts with proper posture(we good?) secondly as long as your mass falls within your base you have balance.(cool?) Now provided your skeletel structure supports the weight of your body(posture) and you are in balance, then your muscles can truly relax,then you may now move with speed. For the intention of speed you must pay attention to your posture, balance, and relaxation. And this is a dead end for you? I can only suggest you leave that dojo runnin' my freind. :asian:
Sean


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## Fastmover (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Well, first off, instead of location, location, location, I'd say, stances, stances, stances.
> 
> It looks like a real difference in approach...I'd argue (and teach) that power comes from the ground up, not from "the body," as such--which is to say, perhaps, the torso?--and not primarily from, "orbital summation," or anything else having to do with hands. Since I was watching "Pearl harbor," on network the other night, I'd describe hands, etc., as, 'the tip of the sworwd." Not the bumper, but the car?
> ...




Location? Maybe you should remind me what I was teaching again?


1.Problem Robert is that you have NO IDEA what was taught in my seminar and you have taken a 15 sec clip and a couple of post and made some pretty big assumptions. BUT if it makes you
feel better assume away.  Therefore your conclusions are
a little unfounded.

2. I agree that stances are important but do you feel that you 
should make a stance change on every Minor/ Major strike? 

3. It appears that we have a different understanding of orbital summation. The hands play really a small roll in my opinion.

4. If you were not such an *** Id agree with on certain points you
made.

5. Id be interested in seeing you on video to understand what 
your talking about.  Would you be willing to do this????


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## Fastmover (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Robert well lets see there are three types of speed: Physical, mental, and perceptual. I'll assume you were talking about physical speed for the sake of argument.
> Lets break this down. Speed starts with proper posture(we good?) secondly as long as your mass falls within your base you have balance.(cool?) Now provided your skeletel structure supports the weight of your body(posture) and you are in balance, then your muscles can truly relax,then you may now move with speed. For the intention of speed you must pay attention to your posture, balance, and relaxation. And this is a dead end for you? I can only suggest you leave that dojo runnin' my freind. :asian:
> Sean *




Um.....I hate to say, but TOD he is baiting you on and then playing
with words to make an agruement. Rest assured he probably 
isnt so bold in person.


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## Fastmover (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> * By the way which would hurt more a baseball moving at 40 mph or 90mph. *




You know........a bowling ball going 100mph would hurt a lot.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 11, 2004)

> It looks like a real difference in approach...I'd argue (and teach) that power comes from the ground up, not from "the body," as such--which is to say, perhaps, the torso?--and not primarily from, "orbital summation," or anything else having to do with hands.



Power does come from the ground up, I'll agree with you there.  However, as I said controlled speed is what generates power.  This requires synchronization of the upper and lower parts of the body, which is what Mr. Connolly was teaching during the course of his 60 min seminar.  Oh yeah, you obviously don't even know what orbital summation is, otherwise you wouldn't have said what you did!!!!



> Nor do I agree that, "you can't have proper form without moving fast." I'd would point out that "speed," (and of course there are different types of speed worth discussing) is a byproduct of form and other things. And again, I would argue that of all the attributes one wants to develop, speed's probably LAST on the list.



I don't ever remember saying that you can't have proper form without moving fast.  If speed is merely a byproduct of form then why don't people just go take a running class then compete in the olympics?!?  Form is necessary, but you must also teach students how to move fast with form.  Speed without form is possible, just ask Dan Thiel who screwed up his elbow and shoulder.



> The other thing that occurs is that speed vs. power perhaps might be viewed as two halves of the same coin, kinda like light being either a particle or a wave depending on your viewpoint, and upon which equations you choose to use to describe what you're talking about...



That's not a very good analogy.  Power can be generated through speed, but speed cannot be generated by having power alone.  



> As for "Kenpo Yahoo's," points, I would argue that focusing on, "raw upper body mechanics," with underbelts is precisely the wrong emphasis.



Since you obviously don't understand what we're doing, I would argue that you aren't qualified to make such statements.  Also, if you will go back and read my post I said that colored belts need a sufficient "explanation of the raw upper body mechanics."  I, however, did not say that they were never taught lower body mechanics. 

As far as the parries being done with the fingers, I would have to guess that it was the POV.  I have always been taught to use the palm of the hand when parrying.  In fact in some instances I use my parries to set up grabs.



> As for, "endlessly, " in commentary and "thirty second," in video clips excuse me if I'm wrong or have the wrong posters, but I seem to recollect a very great deal--based on fairly short videos--of commentary on other videos recently...



Wow...... how petty was that.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


 Mr. Yahoo,
I'm the one who said you can't have proper form without speed. An example would be if you slowly execute an horizontal punch off the hip there are groups of muscles you would not normaly use to hold your arm on the path you are traveling. In fact the slower you do it the harder these muscles have to work. When you move with speed you may relax these muscles completly and allow only those muscles that propel your hand forward to be in play. The less contact you make when moving fast means the more you are employing muscles to reverse the directional harmony that you had. My complaint about the vid clips is that without contact, form is compromised. If this supports Roberts' argument, in the slightest, I apologize :asian: 
Sean


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## Fastmover (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> 
> Could y'all maybe explain, "the power of the body
> ...




1. By utilizing proper body mechanics and acheiving proper body alignment to engage the mass,  while also synchronizing the speed of the weapons, one can harness the forces. The devil is in the details however.

2. It is important to note that some targets at certain angles, do not require maximum power to produce results. Speed would
therfore play a greater roll and taking advantage of these targets
since power and mass is not required to do damage.
If speed is a dead end street for you, the chances are higher of
being dead on the street if your opponent is quicker then you.

3. I have to disagree with anyone who says that slowing down a strike creates more power. I cant imagine a football coach telling
a player to run slower so he can hit harder??? 

4. There are martail artist with the ability and the understanding that can harness both speed ( read as explosive energy) and mass with very little effort.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2004)

Is it that you have the impression that your group is the only group that understands the concept of launching? This comes from the ground. Could you explain how slowing the arm down increases power for us lower downs. 
Sean


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 11, 2004)

Huh. Ask some questions, be polite about it, get told you're, "an ***," get told, "he's probably not so bold in person," get a fair amount of overly-inflated language such as, "one can harness the forces," or, "If speed is a dead end street for you, the chances are higher of being dead on the street if your opponent is quicker then you."


Do I have a bit of an axe to grind? Sure. I was sufficiently annoyed by the previous comments on you-know-who's Tip that I wanted to see what would happen if I made some of the same comments about other martial artists' video clips. 

Of course, I was considerably more polite than the originals--and I repeatedly noted that the questions might just be coming from me, or they might be a byproduct of the fact that they were on video, or they might be something I didn't understand, or they might represent a difference in basic theory, but well, I guess I have the answer to that question. 

I appreciate differences. I appreciate discussion, and I appreciate criticism, having as I do a professional stake in them. I also understand what's going on when I see intellectual double standards, when I see cant phrases substituted for analyses, when I see personal attacks in the place of simple discussion. 

Just so's you know, and can make fun more easily, I wasn't taught in kenpo to develop "speed," as something in and of itself. Nor do I teach that way. Perceptual speed, sure. Closing the gap, sure. Getting the hell out of the way, sure. Rounding off corners, sure. Trimming away excess in one's movement, sure. Employing different muscle groups, sure. Working for better form, sure. "Tricks," like rebounding of the floor or off an opponent or off one's own body, sure. Other such things, sure. But most of this got worked through teaching, say, good kata; or, running things hard in a technique line. I don't agree--it's a disagreement, nothing more--with developing speed in and of itself. 

By the way, the particle/wave analogy was eminently appropriate. It has to do with different points of view with regard to the same phenomenon...

Which is very much what's at stake here. Not anybody's character, or brainpower, or instructor, or bravery, or whatever seems to need to come up as an issue in these little discussions. Looks to me like you're getting so pissed at me in part because you assume I must be thinking--and writing--what you are in fact writing.  Just so you know, my ground assumption is (and has always been) that folks like Mr. Ence know (and can enact) a helluva lot more about this kenpo stuff than I do. 

Just explain--and, my suggestion is, go back through the posts by "Touch," and "Yahoo," and others, including myself,  response to the Tips (a thread we're still on, yes?) and ask yourself if they match your standards for courtesy and for good discussion. Then ask if you're leaning on a double standard. And be of good cheer--originally, I was going to simply start quoting the previous comments, directed against the recent videos, but I decided that would be unnecessarily sneaky and unreasonable.

Time--well past time--to de-escalate the rhetoric, don't you think? All we gots to do is explain what we think, have experienced, learned. For example, I didn't pretend to know what you mean by the term, "orbital summation," so why not just explain it? Then I'll understand, especially since it probably is simply another term for something I do already know, and we can go on to other matters.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Huh. Ask some questions, be polite about it, get told you're, "an ***," get told, "he's probably not so bold in person," get a fair amount of overly-inflated language such as, "one can harness the forces," or, "If speed is a dead end street for you, the chances are higher of being dead on the street if your opponent is quicker then you."
> 
> 
> ...


 So are you suggesting that those whom work twitch response muscles as opposed to muscles for strenghth are wasting there time? Is the whole science a wash because speed comes from the ground? Repeating a form over and over only creates a habbit in the way you do the form. Trying to do the form differently and seeking insights as to how it can be done better is the only way your ever going to improve. Mr. Tatum boldly claimed we should all know some tech by now. That was a message to us all thet if we didn't know it we were in the wrong school there Robert. Or was that just an innocent off the cuff extempor remark? You now suggest that people should slow the weapon down for increased power and I was wondering if you could explain how that works. Inquiring minds want to know


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## Fastmover (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Huh. Ask some questions, be polite about it, get told you're, "an ***," get told, "he's probably not so bold in person," get a fair amount of overly-inflated language such as, "one can harness the forces," or, "If speed is a dead end street for you, the chances are higher of being dead on the street if your opponent is quicker then you."
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry Robert I do not feel sorry for you and the way you are treated on the forums. Since you have an axe to agrind then you can expect folks to treat you poorly. The problem is that you have directed your "axe to grind" toward a group that had nothing to do with critique of Tatum's TOW. 

Your right however that is time to stop the rehotric and the play on words.

Id be interested in seeing you on video to understand what 
your talking about. Would you be willing to do this???? Would
you be willing to let everyone see what you do on video???



?????


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 11, 2004)

"That was a message to all of us....?" 

No, but if you study the alignment of his left arm in regard to the dragon wall hanging in the background you will see the formation of the "high noon," position on the clock, a message to all earthlings that the invasion from a watery planet in the Draco constellation is due next Thursday at 11:58 AM Pacific Standard Time.

Sean, I've no idea what you're talking about. Because I simply didn't say any of this stuff; among other things, I wrote absolutely nothing suggesting that anybody was, "wasting their time." I'm afraid that's your fantasy, not mine.

Incidentally, there are only "fast twitch," and "slow twitch," muscles, as far as I know. What you would develop with them would have to do with matters such as purpose, anatomical position, cross-section, attachment, etc.

In response to the question about video--I look like an idiot on videos. Which I've noted about three times already. And nobody asked for anybody to feel sorry for me. That's your fantasy, not mine. I asked for decent manners and honest discussion.

Oh yes...as far as where I've directed my little darts, well, a) I'm aiming at the issue of polite treatment of everybody's instructors and schools, and b) you might wanta reconsider "Kenpo Yahoos," remarks apropos of Mr. Tatum. They're right on this thread.


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## MJS (Feb 11, 2004)

Take a look at a boxer such as Mike Tyson.  Now that is a perfect example of someone who has awesome speed as well as power, and I dont see him slowing down when he punches.  Dont you think that the same ideas and concepts can be applied to Kenpo?

Mike


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 11, 2004)

Of course, Mike. I also note, however, that he's dropping in his stances when he hits....

I don't care if he is washed up as a pro boxer, which is a pity. I ain't getting into any quarrels with the guy...


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 11, 2004)

Hey Robert go ahead and quote me anytime you would like.  I stand behind everything I've said.  



> Just so you know, my ground assumption is (and has always been) that folks like Mr. Ence know (and can enact) a helluva lot more about this kenpo stuff than I do.



Uh.... if you claim that Mr. Ence knows more about this, which he was obviously taught by Mr. Mills, then why wouldn't the other instructors under Mr. Mills understand and/or teach the same material.  Which by your own admission you don't understand as well as they do.



> Robertson:
> For example, I didn't pretend to know what you mean by the term, "orbital summation," so why not just explain it?



Uh... actually you did pretend to know what it meant.  See the next statement.



> Robertson:
> It looks like a real difference in approach...I'd argue (and teach) that power comes from the ground up, not from "the body," as such--which is to say, perhaps, the torso?--*and not primarily from, "orbital summation," or anything else having to do with hands.*



As I stated before, you obviously don't understand the term otherwise you wouldn't have made this statement.  

What else you got.


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## Fastmover (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *"
> 
> In response to the question about video--I look like an idiot on videos. Which I've noted about three times already. And nobody asked for anybody to feel sorry for me. That's your fantasy, not mine. I asked for decent manners and honest discussion.
> ...



Stop the rehotric.

I beginning to think that you are all words and I am asking a simple task.

Again Id be interested in seeing you on video to understand everything that your saying. Can you back up your words on a video to show everyone on the forums??? 

I dont understand why you look bad on video, if your using proper mechanics like your speaking, you should look fine.


?????


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## Michael Billings (Feb 11, 2004)

LET IT GO!!!

Question:
Orbital Summation: Logically this seems to refer to the confluence of factors (rotation, body momentum, Mar. of Grav, etc.) which when taken together, is the "sum" of that strike.  When talking "Orbital" I am assuming that your are not talking about linear movement, but either circular or enlongated circles or strikes.  

Given the context, it appears you ar talking about a synergistic end result, in which the end result (power, speed, force) is greater than the sum of it's parts.  For example creating and factoring in Borrowed Force or using rebounding or launching to increase the resistance before the relaxed weapon makes contact.  I was also wondering about taking out the "stops" and "starts", something I and others under Mr. Sepulveda have been working on for my own edification.

I am not attacking, or putting words in anyone's mouth, but I want to know the reference if you are going to use it and do not mind sharing it?   So far you have not, and that is your perogative, but please reference it back to something we can identify with.

Thanks,
-Michael


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## Michael Billings (Feb 11, 2004)

Muscles have both in them.  The difference is in the proportion to each other in each muscle.

Most triceps have a fairly high proportion of fast twitch fibers, while the latissimus dorsai, will not.  You could optimize what you have, but you don't just grow more.  

-Michael


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Muscles have both in them.  The difference is in the proportion to each other in each muscle.
> 
> Most triceps have a fairly high proportion of fast twitch fibers, while the latissimus dorsai, will not.  You could optimize what you have, but you don't just grow more.
> ...


 That is very interesting. We train for fast twitch; however, I had not thought about building those muscles. I guess that is a good thing. On the "knuckles to punch with" thread they are discussing how these practices might damage your knuckles. Coincidently I just had a class today with my instructor, Skip, on the practice of not locking out your moves for the purpose of eliminating any push what so ever. This will also increase your speed, but you have to go back through all of your techs to see where you might be doing that.
Sean


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## Seig (Feb 12, 2004)

The next personal attack I see will see that thread locked, permanently.  The parties involved will also be given "Official Warning."
Seig
MT Admin Team


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2004)

I think what the problem is here, is that everybody has there own version.  There are people from the Tatum branch and the Mills branch.  2 different teachers, 2 different outlooks.  Does that make either of them wrong? NO.  

Lets get back to the topic.

Mike


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## sumdumguy (Feb 19, 2004)

Maltair said:
			
		

> 6 pages of nothing! :shrug:
> 
> Anyway, sophisticated basics. Are they the little extra shots you get it in if they are availabile? Like in Crossing Talon, the back hammer fist after the elbow strike. Or is it more like on Lone Kimono when you twist his arm out to get a better shot on the elbow?


No, Sophisticated basics are "singular in action with multiple results" period. A "compound strike" on the other hand is what your talking about, or you could call it residual motion. (depending on the application). The TOW reality is extrapolated (sp?) from the technique "fallen cross" (knee to the elbows and immediately kick to the knee (pick a kick?)). This technique (TOW) is simply grafting two tech's "snaking talon" and "fallen cross" and is really only employing "compound strikes". Sorry!
 :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 19, 2004)

Axly, even more sorry, it's a sophisticated basic.

If you don't mind my saying, you might want to review either Mr. Parker's and Tom Gow's 1950s pamphlet, or the second volume of, "Infinite Insights;" a basic front kick is taught so that the knee comes up into "chambered," position before the lower leg and foot are extended.

In this case, the basic chambering action has been used not only to shape the foot into the proper weapon and develop power and balance in the kick, but to attack an elbow, together with the hands, en route to delivering the ball kick. One action, multiple uses.

Certainly, "Fallen Cross," and (to some extent) "Snaking Talon," have this particular move in them. That is because both techniques represent the employment of a, "sophisticated basic." Moreover, I suspect that, "compound strikes," are themselves examples of a sophisticated basic.


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## sumdumguy (Feb 20, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Axly, even more sorry, it's a sophisticated basic.
> 
> If you don't mind my saying, you might want to review either Mr. Parker's and Tom Gow's 1950s pamphlet, or the second volume of, "Infinite Insights;" a basic front kick is taught so that the knee comes up into "chambered," position before the lower leg and foot are extended.
> 
> ...



I should have clarified that I have for myself and students made a determination and differentiate between "sophisticated basics" and "compound strikes". All though traditionally they are clumped together and used universally as the same thing. 
Keep fighting the good fight!


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