# Legal self defense tool for untrained?



## wushuguy (May 29, 2009)

I am helping some friends of mine who don't train in martial arts, to find some tool or device they can use to defend against an assailant. I know there's such things like pepper spray, but don't know what else is available. They don't like to use a pocket knife, cuz they're likely to hurt themselves.

I'd like to know what you guys think is effective, easy to use, and what drawbacks or good points a device has...

Thanks!


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## Nolerama (May 29, 2009)

I've got a pair of comfy Nikes.

And I'm "Gellin".

That would help with an assailant.

Personally, to keep a weapon on your person for the sole intention of protecting yourself carries the same responsibilities as if you trained for years with that weapon... But your friends haven't.

They're more than likely to get that weapon taken from them, and used to their disadvantage.

I think it would be unwise/irresponsible to be like "hey, here's an object you can use to protect yourself... even though you don't know how to use it!"


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## Bill Mattocks (May 29, 2009)

Any weapon a person carries can be taken away and used against them.  If a person cannot or is not willing to become expert in the use of weaponry, they are risking their lives by simply carrying it.

No magic bullets.  Sorry.


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## Nolerama (May 29, 2009)

You could get a really thick PVC pipe, paint it camo green and stencil B-A-Z-O-O-K-A on the side of it, next to an Acme logo and have them walk around. That would not only be intimidating to various road runners and wabbits, but entertaining to the rest of us!


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 29, 2009)

Like was mentioned above an untrained person has a real risk of having any weapon taken away and used against them.
the lists of negatives are so many and positives are almost non existent that I have to recommend getting them trained as the best weapon to use....
that being said, I really like the super high powered small hand held flashlights.. shine those in an attackers eyes and run, or use it as a mace weapon while trying to escape are both good and easy ways to use a tactical light.


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## Omar B (May 29, 2009)

Yeah, a weapon can always be turned against you.  One of my favorite novelists John Le Carre writes spy novels and one of the things he always stresses is never carry a weapon.  You can be found in the wrong place with one or one can be used against you.

Tell your friend to get a small maglite flashlight if they are dead set on a weapon.  Cops won't take away a flashlight and it can be used as a pretty compact thrusting weapon.


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## just2kicku (May 29, 2009)

Anything can be used as a weapon, hell, a sharpened pencils' a great weapon. No weapon in the world is gonna do any good in your pocket though. 

If they need a weapon, their mind is the best one they've got, sharpen it, and they won't have to worry about it.


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## jks9199 (May 29, 2009)

There's too much variability in laws to really answer this.  Pepper spray, chemical mace, and other similar items are legal in some states, but not others.  Same thing with the civilian Taser or stun guns.  All of it requires at least minimal training -- you gotta know which way to point it, if nothing else!

I'd encourage them to carry a cell phone and flashlight.  And practice really good awareness!


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## tellner (May 29, 2009)

The actual risk of "having the weapon taken away and used against you" is statistically insignificant. Seriously. Back when Kleck was first publishing his work on DGUs (Defensive Gun Uses) that was brought up a lot. The NIJ commissioned a couple studies which demonstrated pretty convincingly that defenders were disarmed in about 1/10000th of 1% of cases. 

That's not an argument against training. And anyone who hasn't made The Decision should not own let alone carry a defensive deadly weapon. But it is an indication that you don't have to become an expert to effectively use these tools.

By the bye, the same studies showed that police were disarmed by criminals significantly more often. The studies hypothesized, and I concur, that's because of the very special nature of police work. An officer has to do much riskier things. He or she has to get close to, restrain and handcuff a suspect where a citizen is trying to make the attacker leave. In regular self defense cases the defender usually knows who the attacker is and why he's attacking. A cop arriving on the scene might not know anything except that there's been a report of a disturbance. Who's the attacker? Who's the victim? What do they want?


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## harold (May 29, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> There's too much variability in laws to really answer this. Pepper spray, chemical mace, and other similar items are legal in some states, but not others. Same thing with the civilian Taser or stun guns. All of it requires at least minimal training -- you gotta know which way to point it, if nothing else!
> 
> I'd encourage them to carry a cell phone and flashlight. And practice really good awareness!


 
A good LED flashlight is a good thing to have. Surefire makes some great ones that can disorient an attacker and allow you that extra second to RUN!


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## Thems Fighting Words (May 29, 2009)

How about something they know how to use as a sporting implement (I'm thinking a bat of some kind). At least they'll know how to hit things with it and they can carry it to and from sporting venues, parks or pretty much anywhere (well except nightclubs and what not).


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## Andy Moynihan (May 29, 2009)

tellner said:


> The actual risk of "having the weapon taken away and used against you" is statistically insignificant. Seriously. Back when Kleck was first publishing his work on DGUs (Defensive Gun Uses) that was brought up a lot. The NIJ commissioned a couple studies which demonstrated pretty convincingly that defenders were disarmed in about 1/10000th of 1% of cases.
> 
> That's not an argument against training. And anyone who hasn't made The Decision should not own let alone carry a defensive deadly weapon. But it is an indication that you don't have to become an expert to effectively use these tools.
> 
> By the bye, the same studies showed that police were disarmed by criminals significantly more often. The studies hypothesized, and I concur, that's because of the very special nature of police work. An officer has to do much riskier things. He or she has to get close to, restrain and handcuff a suspect where a citizen is trying to make the attacker leave. In regular self defense cases the defender usually knows who the attacker is and why he's attacking. A cop arriving on the scene might not know anything except that there's been a report of a disturbance. Who's the attacker? Who's the victim? What do they want?


 

Quoted For Truth.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 29, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Any weapon a person carries can be taken away and used against them. If a person cannot or is not willing to become expert in the use of weaponry, they are risking their lives by simply carrying it.
> 
> No magic bullets. Sorry.


 
Also Quoted For Truth, although I might have said "Proficient in the weapon to be owned/carried" rather than "expert in weaponry", perhaps.

But then, I consider disarming/retention/knowledgee of how to use your gun's safety features in a snatch attempt to be every bit as much a part of that as marksmanship. *shrug*. So I may be looking at it differently than the majority.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 29, 2009)

wushuguy said:


> I am helping some friends of mine who don't train in martial arts, to find some tool or device they can use to defend against an assailant. I know there's such things like pepper spray, but don't know what else is available. They don't like to use a pocket knife, cuz they're likely to hurt themselves.
> 
> I'd like to know what you guys think is effective, easy to use, and what drawbacks or good points a device has...
> 
> Thanks!


 
Buy them _this _book and video series:

http://www.armedresponsetraining.com/

If they haven't the maturity or interest to go to firearms, have 'em take a look here:

http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/hochheim_training_mission_dvds.html


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## Bill Mattocks (May 29, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Also Quoted For Truth, although I might have said "Proficient in the weapon to be owned/carried" rather than "expert in weaponry", perhaps.
> 
> But then, I consider disarming/retention/knowledgee of how to use your gun's safety features in a snatch attempt to be every bit as much a part of that as marksmanship. *shrug*. So I may be looking at it differently than the majority.



I think I like the way you said it better - thanks!


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## K-man (May 29, 2009)

How about a dulo-dulo. 


Minimal training required, very easy to use, very effective in a low violence situation. You can also get key-ring varieties.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 30, 2009)

wushuguy said:


> I am helping some friends of mine who don't train in martial arts, to find some tool or device they can use to defend against an assailant. I know there's such things like pepper spray, but don't know what else is available. They don't like to use a pocket knife, cuz they're likely to hurt themselves.
> 
> I'd like to know what you guys think is effective, easy to use, and what drawbacks or good points a device has...
> 
> Thanks!


 There are plenty of options, but they have the wrong mindset from the outset........so any weapon they utilize will ultimately be handicapped by that reality.  The human mind, properly applied, is the only real weapon......all other objects are tools of that mind.  If that mind is not sharpened and honed toward self-defense, those tools are useless.

Or as the late great Jeff Cooper pointed out, 'Owning a gun doesn't make you armed anymore than owning a guitar makes you a musician'.


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## Guardian (May 31, 2009)

Or as the late great Jeff Cooper pointed out, 'Owning a gun doesn't make you armed anymore than owning a guitar makes you a musician'. 

I hate to disagree with Mr. Cooper, but I would say it makes you armed, but it doesn't make you capable. (can't find a wink).


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## mook jong man (Jun 1, 2009)

I've got a thing called The Stinger , no not a missile system. My instructor brought some back from your country. 
 I take it your American .
Its a molded plastic thing that fits in your hand with a point coming out through your knuckles , like a knuckle duster , but it can also be used for accupressure .

 Its a force multiplier , and it doesn't hinder the function of your hand at all , I can still do trapping while it is in my hand . I gave it to my wife to use , but the thing is she has basic Wing Chun deflection skills as well . 

So its not going to be much use to your friends unless they know how to block an incoming strike and have basic punching skills so they can get into range to use the Stinger.

 It might be illegal over there anyway , it is over here. But if you teach your friends some basic blocking and basic punching then it might be an option , and if they don't want to do that.

Tell them to get off their lazy arses , find a school and do some training.
As my mother always used to be fond of saying , God helps those , that help themselves.


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## Aikicomp (Jun 1, 2009)

wushuguy said:


> I am helping some friends of mine who don't train in martial arts, to find some tool or device they can use to defend against an assailant. I know there's such things like pepper spray, but don't know what else is available. They don't like to use a pocket knife, cuz they're likely to hurt themselves.
> 
> I'd like to know what you guys think is effective, easy to use, and what drawbacks or good points a device has...
> 
> Thanks!


 

As others have said to have a weapon and not know how to use it is giving them a false sense of security. Whatever weapon they do decide upon whether it be mace, gun, kuboton, flashlight...make sure they have the training that accompanies it as well as the mental mindset that will also be neede to endure such a situation.

I remember a saying (I forget where I heard it) that went something to the effect of:

" A sword in the hands of a coward is useless" not saying that your friends are cowards but, you get the idea.


Michael


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## morph4me (Jun 1, 2009)

If they aren't trained in the use of the weapon, they shouldn't be carrying a weapon. If they're worried about self defesne, recommend a good instructor.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 1, 2009)

Guardian said:


> Or as the late great Jeff Cooper pointed out, 'Owning a gun doesn't make you armed anymore than owning a guitar makes you a musician'.
> 
> I hate to disagree with Mr. Cooper, but I would say it makes you armed, but it doesn't make you capable. (can't find a wink).



Cooper's point is that the human mind is the weapon.....and the gun is merely a tool.  A mind unable to utilize the tool effectively IS unarmed.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 1, 2009)

wushuguy said:


> I am helping some friends of mine who don't train in martial arts, to find some tool or device they can use to defend against an assailant. I know there's such things like pepper spray, but don't know what else is available. They don't like to use a pocket knife, cuz they're likely to hurt themselves.
> 
> I'd like to know what you guys think is effective, easy to use, and what drawbacks or good points a device has...
> 
> Thanks!


Common sense and awareness: the most effective tools for self protection.  These two things will protect you more than all of the training and weaponry we have access to will.

As far as weapons go, if they are not trained in their use, they will be more at risk, as they will have a false confidence.

Best thing that you can do, if you are of sufficient skill, is to teach them some good, basic moves that use gross motor coordination.  If they truly feel that they must improvise a weapon, make them learn these basics first.

Good improvised weapons that will not attract attention:

A cane
A rolled up magazine
Keys
Flashlights

These are items that require very little training to use with some degree of effectiveness and will not get you any concealed weapons charges.  With the exception of the cane, they are fairly common items.

Daniel


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## jks9199 (Jun 1, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I've got a thing called The Stinger , no not a missile system. My instructor brought some back from your country.
> I take it your American .
> Its a molded plastic thing that fits in your hand with a point coming out through your knuckles , like a knuckle duster , but it can also be used for accupressure .
> 
> ...


It would count as brass knuckles in many places, and thus often be illega.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 1, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> It would count as brass knuckles in many places, and thus often be illega.


It would also require them to avoid being injured, incapacitated or killed and effectively land a punch in such a way that this device will inflict a wound that will incapacitate or kill an attacker.  

If they are so uninitiated that they must have some aid for self defense, this is very unlikely, legalities aside.  More than likely, they would have false confidence and get themselves killed or they will anger the attacker further and get killed.

Daniel


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## BLACK LION (Jun 3, 2009)

two legs and feet running in the opposite direction....


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## Balrog (Jun 4, 2009)

A simple pushbutton ballpoint pen is the best.  Perfectly legal and you can cut the hell out of someone with it.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 7, 2009)

All I have to say to many of the posters above me is:

If it's so easy to take my weapon away, then screw it, I'll just take it back again, if it's so damn easy.  We can play patty cake back and forth for hours, He takes it, I take it he takes it I take it, etc.

Seriously.


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## Josh Oakley (Jun 9, 2009)

Simply, don't use a self-defense tool. Not because of the reasons listed before, necessarily, but because it will give your buddy a false sense of confidence. If your friend gets attacked, he'll rely mentally on that tool, but things are chaotic. He could get his azz kicked while still in the process of reaching for the tool. or he could drop it. Having nothing will keep him on a higher alert and making him more likely to survive. 

And when it comes down to it, if you're going to have a toll, you've got to learn how to use it. If he's going to get a tool, he has to train anyway for it to be of any value.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 12, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> two legs and feet running in the opposite direction....


Probably the best defense for those that refuse to train......and even it is woefully inadequate without the situational awareness that tells you when you need to start running!

Fortunately, in modern society we are all 'relatively' safe from real violence.


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## MikeRitche (Jun 20, 2009)

Balrog said:


> A simple pushbutton ballpoint pen is the best. Perfectly legal and you can cut the hell out of someone with it.


 
Benchmade makes tactical pens, not cheap though.
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=BM11004


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## BLACK LION (Jun 20, 2009)

There are many people in the "tactical pen" dept nowadays.   I wouldnt spend 200.00 on a pen when I can do equal damage with a .05 cent bic or a mechanical pencil.   I like them and think they are tacti-cool but there are way more inexpensive options out there.  

If "untrained" individuals are looking for personal protection there is no use advocating fine tools for such a purpose..If they cant use thier hands and feet then they can use a knife or kubotan or whatever...  The best advice I can give to an "untrained" individual is ...either dont be there at all... or get a gun and a ccw... it doesnt take much to pull a trigger. In fact guns have been turning untrained individuals into killers for some time now.   

All in all... dont have it if you cant use it and by no means do you put your hands on it if you are not intent to put it through them and anyone else who is deemed a threat...    Better of learning to utilize that brain and naked body first before trying to adorn it with snap on labor saving tools.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 20, 2009)

In the hands of a prepared mind, a pen is a dreadfully lethal weapon......in the hands of an unprepared mind even the most powerful weapon is useless.


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