# Student striking with far too much power



## Zenjael (May 1, 2013)

Hi there, we have a new member of the club, and I am curious toward your suggestions of how I may go about teaching him to control the amount of power he is putting behind his techniques. 


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4829909231166

This is a video of when I first sparred with him, on first contact. He and I had never met each other before, and I must couch that my role in this was as the leading instructor for the group. I was not trying to go hard, merely to use deliberate mistakes on my part, and watching out for theirs, as a teaching tool to help them become better. I am in the black, he the white.

How can I help this person with gaining control, so I may allow them to practice in a contact pretext, with others of our group?

I feel more target practice might help.


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## aaradia (May 1, 2013)

Your link isn't working for me.

Simply telling him to use less power didn't work?


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## Zenjael (May 1, 2013)

No. In fact, during target practice while we trained combinations, one-two cross punches he hit the first target, then me square in the face. A week after this video was taken. I held the targets above each of my shoulders, six inches in front of my body. He socked me hard enough I had to go wash my mouth until I stopped spitting blood. Whats bothered me is that during that rotational drill, I had a feeling it might happen. Couldn't place why, but it was there. Then it happened.

I've banned him from sparring, and even target practice.


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## Touch Of Death (May 1, 2013)

Post of vid.


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## rframe (May 1, 2013)

Explain that he needs to go lightly until he can gain control to stop his punches.  A few graceful reminders, then either tell him to leave until he can walk onto the mat with some self control and respect..... or if you want to be hard, have him work only with advanced belts who can avoid his strikes and tell him that he will be hit as hard as he is hitting.  Crack him in the face a few times and he might chill.  Inexperienced adult males tend to lack any control but still want to go hard for the fun and testosterone of it, but dont realize how easily they could get hurt or hurt someone else until they learn much better control.  This is a liability I would not allow to continue.


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## Zenjael (May 1, 2013)

I concur. I was originally sanctioning him to only practice with either myself, or a member we named blanco because he is 6 foot 6, and 300 pounds of muscle, and patient. Since we are a club and not a dojo, this is why I have since banned him from contact practice since he made me spit blood.

I don't mind that kind of stuff personally, but lawsuits are a problem in America for martial arts, and I'm not going to let my club get closed because a member is too uppity.


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## Blindside (May 1, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> I don't mind that kind of stuff personally, but lawsuits are a problem in America for martial arts, and I'm not going to let my club get closed because a member is too uppity.



Uppity, or simply doesn't have control?  I have a student who is a big guy and not terribly coordinated, he has developed a lighter touch but it has taken a long while to do so.  It isn't a malicious thing, he just naturally hits hard.  On the plus side, on the sparring floor he will really test that defense with his reach and his power.  That is a good reality check if you are too used to patty cake sparring.


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## Stmck6 (May 1, 2013)

I could not view you video, but I am going to assume that this person is an adult.
it amazes me that after speaking to an adult that they cannot figure this out. 
The potential for injury seems extremely high.
i have had a few students that have acted similar to this, but have always figured things out after a talking to.
i guess there are always going to be one or two students who feel that they always have to strike with full power. The tough reality of it, is an innocent person (you, in this case) is always the one to get injured by these loose cannons.
good luck with him.









Zenjael said:


> Hi there, we have a new member of the club, and I am curious toward your suggestions of how I may go about teaching him to control the amount of power he is putting behind his techniques.
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4829909231166
> ...


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## Prostar (May 1, 2013)

It always seemed like it was ten extra points for tagging the instructor.  It sounds like the student got you intentionally.  I must admit. to having put two students through walls.  They came hard and I turned it up a bit.  One of them came in with wallboard and fixed the hole after apologizing.  I'm not suggesting that anyone engage in remodeling of the classroom but certain circumstances work better with a hands on approach.  I have had to limit who certain students squared off with till they eventually got the point.  Upper belt students really enjoy the challenge of learning how to not go too hard on such a student, but still make the point.  The instructor just has to set up the parameters clearly with both parties.


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## Cyriacus (May 1, 2013)

Id suggest you talk to him about it, dont just tell him what to do. Or, optionally, direct him to one of the many gyms or clubs in your local area where hard hitting is okay. That way youre helping him, and getting him out of your club.


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## RTKDCMB (May 1, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> No. In fact, during target practice while we trained combinations, one-two cross punches he hit the first target, then me square in the face. A week after this video was taken. I held the targets above each of my shoulders, six inches in front of my body. He socked me hard enough I had to go wash my mouth until I stopped spitting blood. Whats bothered me is that during that rotational drill, I had a feeling it might happen. Couldn't place why, but it was there. Then it happened.
> 
> I've banned him from sparring, and even target practice.



Without being able to view the video I can't be 100% sure but from what  you said it seems that this is more of a control, respect and accuracy  problem more than a too much power problem. It helps when you are holding the focus mitts to be in a back stance so that you are ready to move at any time to avoid getting hit. You need to take him aside and explain to him that you are both there to learn and not harm each other. If he is not willing to improve then tell him he will have to leave and see if that smartens him up a bit. If he insist on trying to play tag the instructor then there is nothing wrong with giving him a bit of a face or rib massage to help him learn.


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## enthusiast (May 2, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> Since we are a club and not a dojo, this is why I have since banned him from contact practice since he made me spit blood.



what's the difference between a club and a dojo? you mean you don't teach them, you teach each other?or sth?just curious


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## DennisBreene (May 2, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Without being able to view the video I can't be 100% sure but from what  you said it seems that this is more of a control, respect and accuracy  problem more than a too much power problem. It helps when you are holding the focus mitts to be in a back stance so that you are ready to move at any time to avoid getting hit. You need to take him aside and explain to him that you are both there to learn and not harm each other. If he is not willing to improve then tell him he will have to leave and see if that smartens him up a bit. If he insist on trying to play tag the instructor then there is nothing wrong with giving him a bit of a face or rib massage to help him learn.



I think that if you have to return the favor, so to speak, and physically injure the man to get your message across, it is already a lost cause. If he doesn't respond to verbal coaching with a real attempt to restrain his behaviour, you are only inviting further opportunities for someone to get seriously injured.


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## Cyriacus (May 2, 2013)

DennisBreene said:


> I think that if you have to return the favor, so to speak, and physically injure the man to get your message across, it is already a lost cause. If he doesn't respond to verbal coaching with a real attempt to restrain his behaviour, you are only inviting further opportunities for someone to get seriously injured.



Plus, its rather egotistic to turn it into a match of demonstrating whos better. And if the student decides this is a real fight (you know, because it may be viewed as an attack if its unannounced without warning moments before), and beats the instructors head against the ground a few times in an adrenalin fuelled episode while the instructor still thinks hes the one teaching a lesson, theres legal problems for the student. We dont want that.


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## Cyriacus (May 2, 2013)

Couple of questions. He hit you, right?

What kind of exercise were you doing? Was contact allowed? Is the complaint that he was allowed to hit you, but he wasnt allowed to hit you like that, or was the complaint that he wasnt allowed to hit you but he hit you anyway? Because if he was allowed to hit you, that sorta comes with the territory of being hit. And if youre meant to hit with less force, try reducing the overall speed of the exercise. To clarify, he hit you when you have him an opportunity to (or so you presume). Thats good, yeah? So the issue you take to that is how hard he hit you. Some people hit hard. Its that simple. The solution is to reduce speed.

Or i guess you could condition him to not use the power he has, and half-do things instead. Your club, your call.


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## DennisBreene (May 2, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Plus, its rather egotistic to turn it into a match of demonstrating whos better. And if the student decides this is a real fight (you know, because it may be viewed as an attack if its unannounced without warning moments before), and beats the instructors head against the ground a few times in an adrenalin fuelled episode while the instructor still thinks hes the one teaching a lesson, theres legal problems for the student. We dont want that.


I think I detect a note of sarcasm there.


Cyriacus said:


> Couple of questions. He hit you, right?
> 
> What kind of exercise were you doing? Was contact allowed? Is the complaint that he was allowed to hit you, but he wasnt allowed to hit you like that, or was the complaint that he wasnt allowed to hit you but he hit you anyway? Because if he was allowed to hit you, that sorta comes with the territory of being hit. And if youre meant to hit with less force, try reducing the overall speed of the exercise. To clarify, he hit you when you have him an opportunity to (or so you presume). Thats good, yeah? So the issue you take to that is how hard he hit you. Some people hit hard. Its that simple. The solution is to reduce speed.
> 
> Or i guess you could condition him to not use the power he has, and half-do things instead. Your club, your call.


 I agree with the suggestion to reduce speed. But all training, including contact training, has certain parameters for the level of contact and force (unless you're maintaining that all training is the equivelent of a full contact, sanctioned match). If the individual in question, consistantly disregards these training parameters, and will not make an effort to "reign it in" he needs to go play with the grown ups. The full contact pugilists can determine if he is out of control or just more capable and skilled in a venue where he has people of comparable views with regards to the level of force that is acceptable in practice sessions.


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## Cyriacus (May 2, 2013)

DennisBreene said:


> I think I detect a note of sarcasm there.
> 
> I agree with the suggestion to reduce speed. But all training, including contact training, has certain parameters for the level of contact and force (unless you're maintaining that all training is the equivelent of a full contact, sanctioned match). If the individual in question, consistantly disregards these training parameters, and will not make an effort to "reign it in" he needs to go play with the grown ups. The full contact pugilists can determine if he is out of control or just more capable and skilled in a venue where he has people of comparable views with regards to the level of force that is acceptable in practice sessions.



Well, some sarcasm. 

Im mostly speaking from the perspective that sometimes youre hitting hard when you GENUINELY feel like youre going lightly. I suggest going slow just to get used to a different pace. Most people, when you tell them to go slow, will go at the same speed, but theyll relax. As weird as that sounds, ive yet to see it fail.


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## DennisBreene (May 2, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, some sarcasm.
> 
> Im mostly speaking from the perspective that sometimes youre hitting hard when you GENUINELY feel like youre going lightly. I suggest going slow just to get used to a different pace. Most people, when you tell them to go slow, will go at the same speed, but theyll relax. As weird as that sounds, ive yet to see it fail.



I agree. It was what I needed to do to meter down the hard style Tang Soo Do when I started studying Arnis. Too much speed and power was hindering my precision and control.  I still have to consciously pull back in order to relax and gain fluidity.  The problem lies in the student who won't or can't throttle down.  It hinders their training and makes them dangerous.  The instructors challenge is in finding an effective way to help the student achieve that relaxation.


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## martial sparrer (May 2, 2013)

sounds like he is doing it on purpose.....I say tell him to stop and that yu feel he is doing it on purpose....if you agree with me......you may need to ask him to leave.....he is not a two year old child.....my son smashes me in the mouth when we play....he doesn't know his strength...if you feel like being nurturing with him what about touch sparring


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## martial sparrer (May 2, 2013)

dennis....like your signature quote in the reddish colour....going to use it for a spiritual journal today with my students....


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## Gnarlie (May 2, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> Hi there, we have a new member of the club, and I am curious toward your suggestions of how I may go about teaching him to control the amount of power he is putting behind his techniques.
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4829909231166
> ...



This comes down only to your interpersonal skills and how much influence you can develop over how he behaves in your training sessions.  No amount of physical training is going to change the mindset of someone who (perhaps subconsciously) thinks that they can't achieve power without trying to 'muscle' the movement.

There are some nice demonstrations that can illustrate the point, though. I find this is a great reason for the existence of board breaking, for example. Set up some boards and break them yourself with pure, effortless looking technique. Then have your boy try to muscle through them and fail. It will need to be a big stack for this wot work by the sound of your description.

Alternatively, have him swing a simple horizontal backfist strike at a kidney pad. There's less danger of taking it to the face, and it's great for demonstrating that 'muscling' the technique is a poor relation of good waist-twisted technique.

Keep him banned from sparring and contact work until he can adequately demonstrate that he understands both that a) power does not come from muscle tension and that b) 'muscled' power causes tension and inaccuracies, and is likely to result in him injuring his training partners. He needs to be told in no uncertain terms that the people who he is training with are friends, not enemies, and when friends get hurt due to his poor self-control, they don't want to be his training partners anymore.

Lastly, and hopefully not necessary, it should be fairly easy for you to evade someone with so little experience and control; avoid the incoming and give him too much contact in return every time until he backs off. Make it clear there and then with each strike why you are doing this and that it is deliberate. In my own personal experience, and this happens seldom, people who don't back off in this situation decide to leave and not come back, when they realise that muscle will only get them so far.


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## DennisBreene (May 2, 2013)

martial sparrer said:


> dennis....like your signature quote in the reddish colour....going to use it for a spiritual journal today with my students....



I'm honored. (bows)


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## Cyriacus (May 2, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> There are some nice demonstrations that can illustrate the point, though. I find this is a great reason for the existence of board breaking, for example. Set up some boards and break them yourself with pure, effortless looking technique. Then have your boy try to muscle through them and fail. It will need to be a big stack for this wot work by the sound of your description.



The first time i broke a board, i was half asleep and i asked if i could use it for a try at the end of a class. Note that this was the fifth class id ever done in a striking system. I was allowed to do it however i wanted, so i just propped it up on the ground and wildly swung a hammerfist at it (a strike i hadnt learnt at the time. it just seemed like a good idea in my head). The board broke and i was happy.

Muscle works. That doesnt mean its correct within a certain system.

EDIT: My point in saying that being, this is something ive seen in Boxing Gyms as well. People who use muscle do hit hard. They really do. They also get tired really quickly. But they hit really hard. Hitting hard any other way is usually (usually) something you _learn. _With some people, its chasing after the power they can muscle out, albeit with the benefits of doing it some other way.


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## Gnarlie (May 2, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> The first time i broke a board, i was half asleep and i asked if i could use it for a try at the end of a class. Note that this was the fifth class id ever done in a striking system. I was allowed to do it however i wanted, so i just propped it up on the ground and wildly swung a hammerfist at it (a strike i hadnt learnt at the time. it just seemed like a good idea in my head). The board broke and i was happy.
> 
> Muscle works. That doesnt mean its correct within a certain system.



It only works up to a point that's what I mean. Put yourself in the same situation with 5 stacked boards, and it would have been a different story perhaps. Whereas it's fairly straightforward to get through such a stack with proper technique.

I'm a skinny guy, 6ft and 72kg. Because my focus has always been correct technique over muscle, I can and do hit harder than some much bigger guys I meet. They seem to look at it like some mystery.


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## Cyriacus (May 2, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> It only works up to a point that's what I mean. Put yourself in the same situation with 5 stacked boards, and it would have been a different story perhaps. Whereas it's fairly straightforward to get through such a stack with proper technique.
> 
> I'm a skinny guy, 6ft and 72kg. Because my focus has always been correct technique over muscle, I can and do hit harder than some much bigger guys I meet. They seem to look at it like some mystery.



However, if i were to repeatedly hit the five boards, theyd eventually break 
Again, im not saying muscle = >. Just that setting someone up to fail is, obviously, going to set them up to fail. If you gave me five boards, of course i wouldnt have broken them. Board breaking is a skill, and you learn how to do it. Setting someone up to fail is only going to show them that they cant do something. So, i guess youd best hope that their goal in training is the ability to break five boards, or the correlation is only going to be in the eyes of the beholder.


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## Gnarlie (May 2, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> However, if i were to repeatedly hit the five boards, theyd eventually break
> Again, im not saying muscle = >. Just that setting someone up to fail is, obviously, going to set them up to fail. If you gave me five boards, of course i wouldnt have broken them. Board breaking is a skill, and you learn how to do it. Setting someone up to fail is only going to show them that they cant do something. So, i guess youd best hope that their goal in training is the ability to break five boards, or the correlation is only going to be in the eyes of the beholder.



Yes, it's a skill. A skill requiring transfer of energy to a target. A skill that requires power and accuracy rather than muscular tension to generate concentrated, localised energy. Making it a perfect tool to demonstrate to someone that they are not achieving power or accuracy through their use of muscle / aggression / etc, and all without the need for anyone to take power shots to the face.

The main communication with this guy should probably be verbal anyway, these exercises just support the point that shoving too much oomph behind the technique results in a worse performance overall, if the ultimate aim of adding that oomph is transfer of energy to a the target. It is likely to cause the shot to miss, as happened in the OP, and doesn't necessarily achieve greater energy transfer to the target due to poor connection angle and lack of speed due to tension.

I used to have a guy in my class who couldn't punch or kick anything without pulling his head forward in a sort of pigeon-like movement and shutting his eyes, purely from trying to put too much into the tech. It took a while to get him to see that he was more accurate and powerful with his eyes open and on the target, with about 70% of his initial oomph. Still isn't relaxed technique though. Some people just don't know they are doing it, I think, and communicating the idea that too much effort is counter productive with words alone can be difficult for that reason. That's why I'm suggesting demos - not necessarily setting them up to fail, I mean they can attempt to break first in that example, it doesn't matter. It just causes a certain realisation in my experience - a light bulb goes on when they see someone who they have 60kg on deliver power that they can't.

If the exact idea isn't to your liking, then maybe something else along similar lines to show that relaxed little / skinny blokes with good technique can often deliver a greater amount of energy to a target than a big, aggressive and tense bear of a man. It gets way more worrying for us skinnies when the big guys are relaxed and understand how to use that weight and size to generate relaxed and accurate power.


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## sfs982000 (May 2, 2013)

I tried viewing the video you posted but was unable to.  I would agree that not having that student spar is a good idea until he learns some control and focus.  There is a classmate of mine that is very similar when he spars, we jokingly refer to him as the bull in the china shop.  Tons of power but needs to learn more control and focusing.  When working combination drills as a general rule of thumb we start off slowly and work up to full speed and contact, same thing with sparring, the first couple of matches are at about half speed to warm up and then we will ramp things up.  In my opinion it works well for us and it might be something you might want to try with him.


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## RTKDCMB (May 4, 2013)

DennisBreene said:


> I think that if you have to return the favor, so to speak, and physically injure the man to get your message across, it is already a lost cause. If he doesn't respond to verbal coaching with a real attempt to restrain his behaviour, you are only inviting further opportunities for someone to get seriously injured.



You don't have to seriously injure the student to get your point across just enough to let him know how much you are actually holding back. You should always have good control and should never do it in anger.


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## Riffix (May 4, 2013)

I remember one of my first kickboxing lessons, sparring at the end we weren't allowed to strike the head until we learned control, 

unfortunately for me I got paired up with the British aka light middleweight champ who was 16 at the time, started off light but we both got a little carried away, him being much much more experience and used to fighting in adult competition threw a right past my guard and to this day every time I stretch my arms out my ribs crack all the way down the middle, serves as a good reminder! 


Later in the day he was sparring with the instructor, instructor went for a high kick, he went low punch and every guy in the room flinched and the instructor hit the deck, that part of the story not so relevant but might make u feel better about getting hit in the face lol.

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## Cyriacus (May 4, 2013)

Riffix said:


> I remember one of my first kickboxing lessons, sparring at the end we weren't allowed to strike the head until we learned control,
> 
> unfortunately for me I got paired up with the British aka light middleweight champ who was 16 at the time, started off light but we both got a little carried away, him being much much more experience and used to fighting in adult competition threw a right past my guard and to this day every time I stretch my arms out my ribs crack all the way down the middle, serves as a good reminder!
> 
> ...



Apparently that means the instructor was holding back, and should retaliate by not holding back in future, because obviously the champ wasnt holding back either. *shrugs*


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## Zenjael (May 12, 2013)

A lot of really condusive replies, and I'd like to thank yall for that.

In the drill it was just one-two cross punches to the target when the incident occurred. The video was moreso a demonstration of how hard he can go, but I realize in hindsight it doesnt exactly convey that too well.

It was with target pads, he was not allowed to strike me and did. I have since spoken to him, and allowed him to reintegrate once I feel more comfortable with his ability of control. Last week we allowed him to do 5 on 5's, but not spar. 

I only believe you need to send a physical message when you actually feel endangered. I was very against knocking my own students out until I spoke with one of the best teachers I had, and he spoke to me how when he went 1 on 1 with his master, sooner or later Master Lee would feel the need to knock him out. I enjoy it when a student pushes me to that point, but I do not enjoy having to react in such manner. In this case, be deciding to initiate a further physical confrontation would only be to my detriment, especially if it was a whooping. And what happens if he is just one of those people who are born fighters and won? Not likely- but the risk is there, and not worth it in non-profit setting where there is real liability for escalation or lawsuit.


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## K-man (May 12, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> I only believe you need to send a physical message when you actually feel endangered. I was very against knocking my own students out until I spoke with one of the best teachers I had, and he spoke to me how when he went 1 on 1 with his master, sooner or later Master Lee would feel the need to knock him out. I enjoy it when a student pushes me to that point, but I do not enjoy having to react in such manner. In this case, be deciding to initiate a further physical confrontation would only be to my detriment, especially if it was a whooping. And what happens if he is just one of those people who are born fighters and won? Not likely- but the risk is there, and not worth it in non-profit setting where there is real liability for escalation or lawsuit.


I think that if you were to hit one of your students, hard enough to knock him out, you are risking a law suit. You might have got away with beating up students back in the 60s and 70s but doing that now is not a sensible thing to do. Get him to train responsibly or get rid of him, simple arithmetic!   
:asian:


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## Zenjael (May 12, 2013)

Naturally, but I mean it moreso in the spirit of what a teacher is willing to go to lengths toward, in training their students. Do we let them dangle and weather the waters, or cut the rope and let them drown? This could be the case with this person eventually.

Understand I have never knocked out a student of my own, but when teaching techniques that deliberatelly strike pressure and vital points, and we are practicing heavy contact to those areas (for more advanced practitioners) the threat of being hurt myself is very real. I am training these people to be either as good as myself, or better, and sometimes I have actually had to defend myself where otherwise I would have ended up hospitalized.

I have read once that as you become more experienced, every trip to the training hall becomes more and more dangerous, until each training session is a serious question of life or death. I don't believe in taking it to that extreme, but I do in the spirit of that ethos. 

But I'll tell you what; one time my leading student and I were sparring. It devolved to the ground, and while I was playing around, he and I continued to escalate (I call it anteing it up) when suddenly he threw his arms around my neck and applied a submission hold, intended to put me unconscious. His reasoning was that he felt endangered after he drew blood from me, and I made the statement, 'now lets have fun'. I had no ill intentions and would not have deviated in how we were practicing. It's blood, who cares. But unfortunantely his fear caused him to suddenly go into survival mode, and I found myself with a very strong set of arms around my neck, attempting to choke me out.

What did I do? Out of instinct, and luckily many years of Hapikido training, I grabbed him by the hair and threw him over my shoulder. Many in Hapkido have the hip torque to easily throw people with just that alone, so even seated it is possible to lift the person and throw them. 

Well, he landed somewhat hard, and had the breath knocked out of him until he regained a sense of control, or composure. At most he was stunned. I do not believe I acted wrongly, not past what needed to be done to get him off me. In my book, if I lose consciousness it is risking death, and I will not allow it. He crossed a boundary extending sparring and shadow boxing to being a very real and dangerous thing, and sometimes our students will do that.

Perhaps it is risking a lawsuit. But then again, I do not risk such things with people I believe are likely to do such things. Call it honor, or friendship, or loyalty, but certainly with this student in question, we have faith in each other we won't do lasting harm. We are real training partners, even if I have many years more experience than he. 

But if the fear of lawsuits stays our hand, and keeps those who wish to learn from us from growing, than we are handicapping our arts as well, in the end. I can't do that, and I do follow the tradition if a student gets uppity, endangers my life, I will defend myself. I will avoid hurting them. But I do have a right to self-defense, and use what I am teaching.


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## Xue Sheng (May 12, 2013)

How old are you?

Because based on what I just read you sound awfully impressed with yourself and it sound more like the arrogance of youth and the martial fantasy of a young person trying to impress the old guys than actual experience. 

I've been at this a long time and I have been thrown, knocked down, punched,kicked and broken bones training. I have also injured a few training and although we always knew it was part of training, I never felt it was something to brag about. I have had to use this stuff in real life as well and I do not brag about that either. I'm old school MA and I cannot speak for the others here but you are not impressing me at all with this.

Take it for what it is worth, but that is how I feel.


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## aaradia (May 12, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> I have read once that as you become more experienced, every trip to the training hall becomes more and more dangerous, until each training session is a serious question of life or death. I don't believe in taking it to that extreme, but I do in the spirit of that ethos.
> 
> .



I completely disagree. The more advanced you become, the more control you should have. I never worry about injury from the really advanced students, beccause they have great control.

Seriously? Every "training session becomes a matter of life or death"? Do you REALLY think most people today want to risk dying every time they train MA? Do you really think schools would be allowed to exist if people were dying? Isn't that just a tad melodramatic?:jediduel:


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## Josealb (May 12, 2013)

I dont get this obsession with danger either. Not coming from a dojo, just a park, the budget for training is just yourself and some quality friends. No pads, gloves, helmet etc...and we have gone at it pretty damn hard at times, full power, only with the common sense to not use cheap shots like groin, eye gauges, hair pulling, shirt  grabbing or headbutts. The most thats happened was a bloody lip, a sore rib, and only once, a little scare with a kidney shot. =D

Other than that, nothing. The more skill you have the more control. I just chuckle a bit whenever i hear someone saying that with skill techniques are too deadly to test, etc. I dont get it.


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## K-man (May 12, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> Understand I have never knocked out a student of my own, but when teaching techniques that deliberatelly strike pressure and vital points, and we are practicing heavy contact to those areas (for more advanced practitioners) the threat of being hurt myself is very real. I am training these people to be either as good as myself, or better, and sometimes I have actually had to defend myself where otherwise I would have ended up hospitalized.
> 
> Mmm! Striking heavy contact to vital points sounds strange to me. If you are indeed striking those points hard and not severely hurting people then I suspect your vital points aren't too 'vital'.  Even attempting to hit vital points hard in training is, to me, irresponsible.  You defending yourself to prevent being hospitalised sounds fanciful at best.
> 
> ...


If your training venue has the values you talk of here, then you deserve to be sued for every injury that occurs. I have never read such nonsense. You do not have the right to use self defence against a student.  It sounds to me that you have no place teaching at all!


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## Aiki Lee (May 12, 2013)

I agree with what the others have already said, but hereis my take as well.



Zenjael said:


> Naturally, but I mean it moreso inthe spirit of what a teacher is willing to go to lengths toward, in trainingtheir students. Do we let them dangle and weather the waters, or cut the ropeand let them drown? This could be the case with this person eventually.


I&#8217;m actually not really sure what you are talking abouthere.



Zenjael said:


> Understand I have never knocked out a student of my own,but when teaching techniques that deliberatelly strike pressure and vitalpoints, and we are practicing heavy contact to those areas (for more advancedpractitioners) the threat of being hurt myself is very real. I am trainingthese people to be either as good as myself, or better, and sometimes I haveactually had to defend myself where otherwise I would have ended uphospitalized.


I am going to go and say there actually should be somedegree of danger in martial arts training, but nothing that would actuallyforce you to defend yourself against someone during a training exercise. Thatdoesn&#8217;t make sense. Martial arts are about control.



Zenjael said:


> I have read once that as you become more experienced,every trip to the training hall becomes more and more dangerous, until eachtraining session is a serious question of life or death. I don't believe intaking it to that extreme, but I do in the spirit of that ethos.


That depends on what you mean by dangerous. We do thingsin my dojo that I would consider dangerous, which is why you have to reach acertain level of skill. Even then, it is still a highly controlled environment.You need to be able to evoke the feeling of being in danger without actuallycrossing the line into actual dangerous territory. It is a fine line.



Zenjael said:


> But I'll tell you what; one time my leading student andI were sparring. It devolved to the ground, and while I was playing around, heand I continued to escalate (I call it anteing it up) when suddenly he threwhis arms around my neck and applied a submission hold, intended to put meunconscious. His reasoning was that he felt endangered after he drew blood fromme, and I made the statement, 'now lets have fun'. I had no ill intentions andwould not have deviated in how we were practicing. It's blood, who cares. Butunfortunantely his fear caused him to suddenly go into survival mode, and Ifound myself with a very strong set of arms around my neck, attempting to chokeme out.


This shows a serious lack of control and some major ego.Why didn&#8217;t you tap out? Did you need to prove something? It sounds like someonecould have very much gotten hurt. If my training partners and I acted this waymy teacher would be furious. You should both slow down from my perspective. 



Zenjael said:


> What did I do? Out of instinct, and luckily many yearsof Hapikido training, I grabbed him by the hair and threw him over my shoulder.Many in Hapkido have the hip torque to easily throw people with just thatalone, so even seated it is possible to lift the person and throw them.


Years of Hapkido training should have kicked in and said &#8220;Thisis getting out of hand, we need to slow down.&#8221;



Zenjael said:


> Well, he landed somewhat hard, and had the breathknocked out of him until he regained a sense of control, or composure. At mosthe was stunned. I do not believe I acted wrongly, not past what needed to bedone to get him off me. In my book, if I lose consciousness it is riskingdeath, and I will not allow it. He crossed a boundary extending sparring andshadow boxing to being a very real and dangerous thing, and sometimes ourstudents will do that.


It takes two to tango.
Now, sometimes someone does go a little too rough and youneed to wake them up, but it should never go as far as this unless the personis being deliberately malicious. 



Zenjael said:


> Perhaps it is risking a lawsuit. But then again, I donot risk such things with people I believe are likely to do such things. Callit honor, or friendship, or loyalty, but certainly with this student inquestion, we have faith in each other we won't do lasting harm. We are realtraining partners, even if I have many years more experience than he.
> 
> But if the fear of lawsuits stays our hand, and keeps those who wish to learnfrom us from growing, than we are handicapping our arts as well, in the end. Ican't do that, and I do follow the tradition if a student gets uppity,endangers my life, I will defend myself. I will avoid hurting them. But I dohave a right to self-defense, and use what I am teaching.


People can be permanently injured in the most seeminglybenign ways. You need to be careful. I&#8217;ve seen people almost paralyzed forescalating during an ego driven training session. There is a difference tosimulating real danger and being reckless.
And if you injure someone seriously in training, it willappear as negligence to the courts no matter how hard you argue that you had todefend yourself against a person you were training.
You need some more supervision, and that is not a jab atyou. That is one outside observer saying that you need someone to watch you andmake sure you are on the path you think you are.


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## Mauthos (May 13, 2013)

I'm just curious as you said it devolved to the ground and maybe I am misunderstanding this, but if you were both on the ground, i.e grappling one on top of the other and not standing with him going for the choke, how could you perform a shoulder throw?


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## Grenadier (May 13, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> Naturally, but I mean it moreso in the spirit of what a teacher is willing to go to lengths toward, in training their students. Do we let them dangle and weather the waters, or cut the rope and let them drown? This could be the case with this person eventually.



Maybe it's your teaching that could be a significant part of the blame?  



> Understand I have never knocked out a student of my own, but when teaching techniques that deliberatelly strike pressure and vital points, and we are practicing heavy contact to those areas (for more advanced practitioners)



Practicing heavy contact to vital points is very, very foolish.  There's nothing to be gained from it, and no matter how much control you have, heavy contact is going to be too heavy at one time or another, regardless of protection.  I've seen some rather interesting organizations demonstrate that they can take a kick to the groin (a lot of staged stuff involved).  What good comes from it?  



> the threat of being hurt myself is very real. I am training these people to be either as good as myself, or better, and sometimes I have actually had to defend myself where otherwise I would have ended up hospitalized.



If you're constantly being put in such situations, then you need to evaluate what you're doing wrong.  



> I have read once that as you become more experienced, every trip to the training hall becomes more and more dangerous, until each training session is a serious question of life or death. I don't believe in taking it to that extreme, but I do in the spirit of that ethos.



You're either reading poorly-written material, or have a less than satisfactory understanding of what control really is.  

As you get more experienced, your control *should* be getting better.  I have no qualms about putting a well-trained brown belt with a student who has had 6 months of experience, simply because the more advanced student is going to have a greater degree of discipline and control compared to the less experienced student, and that the more experienced student knows how to work with the neophytes in a safe manner that encourages good technique.  

Furthermore, students shouldn't be free sparring until they have demonstrated that they have at least a fundamental level of control.  



> But I'll tell you what; one time my leading student and I were sparring. It devolved to the ground, and while I was playing around, he and I continued to escalate (I call it anteing it up) when suddenly he threw his arms around my neck and applied a submission hold, intended to put me unconscious. His reasoning was that he felt endangered after he drew blood from me



Again, if this is what you consider "playing around," where blood gets drawn, you may want to re-consider your methods.  



> , and I made the statement, 'now lets have fun'. I had no ill intentions and would not have deviated in how we were practicing. It's blood, who cares.



This is an even more reckless statement.



> But unfortunantely his fear caused him to suddenly go into survival mode, and I found myself with a very strong set of arms around my neck, attempting to choke me out.



You brought this upon yourself.  As the senior, it's up to *you* to slow things down, not to taunt your student.  If you don't know how to spar with less experienced students safely, then perhaps you should consider getting more training.  



> What did I do?



Pretty much everything wrong.  



> Out of instinct, and luckily many years of Hapikido training, I grabbed him by the hair and threw him over my shoulder. Many in Hapkido have the hip torque to easily throw people with just that alone, so even seated it is possible to lift the person and throw them.



Once again, this demonstrates the lack of self-control (both physical and mental) on your part, and the lack of the ability to control the pace of a sparring session with a student.  



> Well, he landed somewhat hard, and had the breath knocked out of him until he regained a sense of control, or composure. At most he was stunned. I do not believe I acted wrongly



First of all, you're lucky that it was just a "stunned" situation.  You made the mistake of taunting, when you should have been encouraging him to slow things down, since that's what he needed.  



> , not past what needed to be done to get him off me. In my book, if I lose consciousness it is risking death, and I will not allow it. He crossed a boundary extending sparring and shadow boxing to being a very real and dangerous thing, and sometimes our students will do that.



If such a thing happens once in a long while, I understand that things can sometimes get heated, and fluke occurrences can occur.  

If your students do that on a regular basis, then again, there's something dreadfully wrong with your teaching.  You're not teaching them self-control, self-restraint, and discipline, and even worse, you are not practicing those very critical things yourself.  


The first thing you should do is to stop and think about why you constantly get into these negative situations.  

The next thing you should do is change your behavior, so that you avoid such situations.  The best defense against a fight is for the fight not to happen.  

The next thing is that you need to get some in-depth study on the martial arts.  If, by your own assertion, you have almost 20 years of training in the martial arts and several black belt rankings, then you should have already had the focus and discipline to do the right thing.  Maybe it's time to go back, and train, so that you can improve things, especially when it comes to character, discipline, focus, and common sense.  Now that you're older than when you first started, maybe you'll reap more rewards from it this time around.


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## jks9199 (May 13, 2013)

I'm going down a path that surprises me slightly...  I'm going to give Zenjael the benefit of the doubt that he's (not surprisingly) failed to express himself as well as he might have.

I actually do agree that, at a certain point in your training, your training can indeed become very dangerous.  I'll use sword kata as a clear example.  When two sword practitioners work a paired kata together, if either makes a mistake, serious injury is very much a possibility, even if they're using bokken.  Paired kata in traditional jiujutsu is another example.  Certain reality based exercises also carry a risk of injury, if proper safety protocols aren't followed -- and even sometimes if they are.  

That said...  I agree with the general tone of responses.  If you're having this much trouble when training with students -- something is wrong.  Possibly very seriously wrong.

Let's start by asking a simple question: are you teaching, or simply leading a group training?  The burden and responsibility of each is different.  Honestly -- I would suggest that, based on your posts over time here -- you shouldn't be teaching without solid supervision and guidance.  It seems an awful lot like nobody took the time to teach you how to teach and how to lead some of these exercises.  Doesn't mean you can't learn -- but it does mean you need some time with your ego checked, and someone guiding you.

Then... you have instances where training partners apparently significantly misunderstand the exercises.  STOP:  if you're leading -- you're responsible for giving proper instruction and explanation of the exercise.  If I'm running a firing line, I explain the course of fire coming up.  I may demonstrate it, especially if it's complicated.  I may even walk the line through a dry run of it, if the exercise is very complicated, or presents significant risks (like having multiple people moving and shooting together).  I do the same thing in a martial arts setting.  I explain the exercise.  I may even demonstrate appropriate levels of contact.  Then I supervise the exercise, stepping in occasionally to correct or demonstrate something.  

Let's talk some more about training and risk...  Unless you have the freedom to maim and kill your training partners with wanton abandon (I don't think your title is Emperor of Some Forgotten Land Who Uses Peasants in Place of Targets), you have to impose some sort of flaw in any training you do so you don't run out of playmates.  Going slowly is one such flaw (and probably one you want to use more often).  "Control" is another; control either means you're not actually HITTING, or you're missing the actual target on purpose, or stopping the technique short of the real performance.  Hitting non-vital targets or prohibiting some techniques as too dangerous is another common example; start with the list of what you can't do in MMA, for example.  Some things are prohibited because they just make for bad fights, but a lot simply hurt the opponent too badly for the sport purposes (if they work right...).  Here's the trap for many in martial arts: they don't realize the safety flaw in their training.  To me -- the classic example is the old skit with Jim Carrey: "Like a lot of beginning students, you attacked me wrong."  We do a great job practicing and preparing for what I'll call "trained attacks" -- and get flummoxed when someone just flails at us.


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## Kframe (May 13, 2013)

Ok, If im reading this right, he is actually hitting  you during what for me would amount to a focus mitt session? There  is no reason for that to happen. EVER. I have never seen that happen with rank beginners at any boxing or mma gym I have attended. I have never seen that, the focus mits are the targets, and it is quite easily distinguished from the persons head in between the two pads....  

  I have have had occasion to speak with quite a few of my former trainers and my current one, and they all agree one thing. That incident would only happen one time, and that the teacher would send a VERY CLEAR message to them with words or physical actions that such actions by the student are not tolerated.    

Please be very carefull with not only your self but your other students, this person is a threat and a danger to all others who train with him. If you want to send a CLEAR message to him, but don't feel you have the capability to do it, Go visit the local competing MMA gym and explain the situation and ask if one of there experienced fighters can send the message to him quickly and painfully and most importantly in a humbling way..    I Know my former mma gym would LOVE to beat the sense into a uppity student, especially one that is a danger to others.. That is bad for everyone and martial sports in general.


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## Balrog (May 13, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> No. In fact, during target practice while we trained combinations, one-two cross punches he hit the first target, then me square in the face. A week after this video was taken. I held the targets above each of my shoulders, six inches in front of my body. He socked me hard enough I had to go wash my mouth until I stopped spitting blood. Whats bothered me is that during that rotational drill, I had a feeling it might happen. Couldn't place why, but it was there. Then it happened.


That kinda raises my hackles.  How can someone miss a target that badly?  It really sounds deliberate on his part.  

Time for a come-to-Jeezus meeting with him.  Tell him to back off his power and work on his control.  Put him on the bag until he can show you control with a variety of techniques.  Then allow him to spar "on probation" - high ranks only and they have the green light to knock him down if he loses his control.

Good luck.


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## K-man (May 13, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Ok, If im reading this right, he is actually hitting  you during what for me would amount to a focus mitt session? There  is no reason for that to happen. EVER. I have never seen that happen with rank beginners at any boxing or mma gym I have attended. I have never seen that, the focus mits are the targets, and it is quite easily distinguished from the persons head in between the two pads....
> 
> I have have had occasion to speak with quite a few of my former trainers and my current one, and they all agree one thing. That incident would only happen one time, and that the teacher would send a VERY CLEAR message to them with words or physical actions that such actions by the student are not tolerated.
> 
> Please be very carefull with not only your self but your other students, this person is a threat and a danger to all others who train with him. If you want to send a CLEAR message to him, but don't feel you have the capability to do it, Go visit the local competing MMA gym and explain the situation and *ask if one of there experienced fighters can send the message to him quickly and painfully and most importantly in a humbling way..    I Know my former mma gym would LOVE to beat the sense into a uppity student, especially one that is a danger to others.*. That is bad for everyone and martial sports in general.





Balrog said:


> Time for a come-to-Jeezus meeting with him.  Tell him to back off his power and work on his control.  Put him on the bag until he can show you control with a variety of techniques.  Then allow him to spar "on probation" - high ranks only and *they have the green light to knock him down if he loses his control.*


For beginners, I don't know what the situation involved. If it was accidental then an apology should sufice.  If it was deliberate then the guy is asked to leave. If you can't determine that it was deliberate, then it is at very least reckless and a warning would be warranted.

The solution that you guys have proposed here is just as bad, or worse, than the offending student. In fact you are both condoning an assault. I hope neither of you are instructors.   :asian:


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## RTKDCMB (May 14, 2013)

K-man said:


> For beginners, I don't know what the situation involved. If it was accidental then an apology should sufice.  If it was deliberate then the guy is asked to leave. If you can't determine that it was deliberate, then it is at very least reckless and a warning would be warranted.
> 
> The solution that you guys have proposed here is just as bad, or worse, than the offending student. In fact you are both condoning an assault. I hope neither of you are instructors.   :asian:



I agree with you there 100%


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## Aiki Lee (May 14, 2013)

I take those comments as an exaggeration. If someone startsgoing to hard or becomes really uncooperative when they let their ego get inthe way, I could see how a little harder contact from a more experiencedpractitioner could give them pause, but there are still problems with that.
The problem with &#8220;letting somebody have it&#8221; or whatever isthat no one learns from it. If the person hitting too hard doesn&#8217;t know it, hewill feel bullied and humiliated by this response. If the person is lettingthere ego get out of control then the exercise needs to be explained again, andthey need to be told why their behavior is not conducive to training. If theyare purposefully being malicious they should be ejected from the school if thebehavior doesn&#8217;t immediately see correction.
There is a difference between someone not understanding whatthey are supposed to do and someone trying to humiliate or actually hurt you.


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## Dirty Dog (May 14, 2013)

Mauthos said:


> I'm just curious as you said it devolved to the ground and maybe I am misunderstanding this, but if you were both on the ground, i.e grappling one on top of the other and not standing with him going for the choke, how could you perform a shoulder throw?



Because he's SuperAlex - he's told us repeatedly about his superhuman capabilities. Like, for example, continuing to fight after sustaining a flail chest. Or causing armed robbers to flee in terror just by glaring at them.

Go hunt up his YouTube videos, if he hasn't deleted them. They're funny, and demonstrate quite clearly that he's basically a buffoon with little or no real training and a habit of making up stories to get attention.


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## Kframe (May 14, 2013)

Im not a instructor but all of my former instructors would have done what I suggested.. My first boxing coach, had to do it on a few occasions to a uppity and dangerous student.. Guy stepped in for a LIGHT sparring session with one of our competing females. She was going lightly, and he Nailed her with a FULL power right cross. He was a heavy weight, and she was a 135 class female fighter. He floored her, HARD.  Coach asked why he went so hard, and his response was. "I thought she liked it and wanted more"

 Coach (65 years old at this time, 4xgolden glove,3xaau champ) was seething mad, but did not show his emotion.  He asked him to sparr with him. 

So they started sparring. Coach spent the first round, just with probing jabs and defending the guys rabid full power punch's. Guy did not land a single punch on him. Then the second round, coach unleashed a double left hook, and floored the guy. Then proceeded to kick him out..  The female, apparently didn't take this beat down he gave her very well and she quit, and never came back to martial arts..

Fast forward to my former mma gym. My former coach had a co worker who was fit and claimed to be a mma fighter. He was cocky and a loud mouth. Coach invited him in to train with us, and of course he went Way to hard in sparring. So coach had him spar our pro. Pro did not take kindly to him coming at him full power and explained it with his fist... 

Student number 2 some time later comes in, this time a likely dojo stormer.  He follows the same path as the first guy and is sparring way hard. Coach asks him if he would like to sparr with him. He agrees, and of course goes way to hard. Coach unleashes a POWERFULL linear kick to the guys solar plexus. While the guy was on the ground gasping for air, the coach knelt down beside him and said "when  you catch your breath, get your crap and get out"

Seams in my neck of the woods its a accepted practice..


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## K-man (May 14, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Im not a instructor but all of my former instructors would have done what I suggested.. My first boxing coach, had to do it on a few occasions to a uppity and dangerous student.. Guy stepped in for a LIGHT sparring session with one of our competing females. She was going lightly, and he Nailed her with a FULL power right cross. He was a heavy weight, and she was a 135 class female fighter. He floored her, HARD.  Coach asked why he went so hard, and his response was. "I thought she liked it and wanted more"
> 
> Coach (65 years old at this time, 4xgolden glove,3xaau champ) was seething mad, but did not show his emotion.  He asked him to sparr with him.
> 
> ...


The huge difference here is that in this example it is the coach, or I assume Chief Instructor, who is calling the shots and using what he considers reasonable force to achieve what he deems to be necessary or appropriate.  If he miscalculates and causes injury, he has to wear the responsibility for his actions and any legal action that may be taken against him.  Forty years ago it was accepted practice. Now days you get sued for just looking at someone.

In the situations suggested in the earlier post it was not the chief instructor that was going to go heavy and in one case it was not even one of the schools students.





> Originally Posted by *Balrog*
> Time for a come-to-Jeezus meeting with him. Tell him to back off his power and work on his control. Put him on the bag until he can show you control with a variety of techniques. Then *allow him to spar "on probation" - high ranks only and they have the green light to knock him down* if he loses his control.





> Originally Posted by *Kframe*
> If you want to send a CLEAR message to him, but don't feel you have the capability to do it, *Go visit the local competing MMA gym* and explain the situation and *ask if one of there experienced fighters can send the message* to him quickly and painfully and most importantly in a humbling way.. *I Know my former mma gym would LOVE to beat the sense into a uppity student,* especially one that is a danger to others.




These are not good options.    :asian:


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## Phil_n.ireland (May 19, 2013)

Every time he hits too hard strike him he'll soon learn to control it threw fear of being hit


If size mattered the elephant would be king of the jungle


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## Cyriacus (May 19, 2013)

Phil_n.ireland said:


> Every time he hits too hard strike him he'll soon learn to control it threw fear of being hit
> 
> 
> If size mattered the elephant would be king of the jungle



Thats great - He can learn to become afraid of hitting people. *claps


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## Aiki Lee (May 19, 2013)

Phil_n.ireland said:


> Every time he hits too hard strike him he'll soon learn to control it threw fear of being hit



Or he'll get angry and hit even harder. That's pretty bad advice.


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## Cyriacus (May 19, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Or he'll get angry and hit even harder. That's pretty bad advice.



And now we can wait for someone to sidle in with the unspoken pretext that the instructor would _obviously_ win if the student turned it into a real 'fight'.
Im calling it now. And if it happens (though its sorta happened already a few pages ago), i may spit out my water. Just saying.


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## Zenjael (May 20, 2013)

*To Jks*, you are right in your example. That is generally to what I was referring to, that in certain arts that is what happens. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong, but some techniques to learn are dangerous. Striking to nerves can deaden them, not landing correctly can tear knees, and so on.

True, the more experienced you get, the more control you should have. But just because you have control over what you are doing, does not mean you can control how others are suddenly going to switch from gear 1, to gear 5. Like you, I define control in the way you did.

As of now, in a club setting, I teach and lead, and am working to have the club oriented again so that multiple people are teachings while I lead. Makes it easier to manage considering this is a forum setting, not a school. But when we rotate to say our Wing Chun practitioner, he will assume direction of the drill. In this case, I did exactly what you specified, explained, demonstrated, had others go. Speaking with the club today it was brought up that the person in question was quite miffed over not getting to kick... and that others in the group felt like that might happen also.

We don't exist in a setting where I can tell people to leave, as this is NVCC property and students are welcome. I go to George Mason, so apart from being able to lead, I am not allowed to ask people to leave if they are students. It is complicated.

At this point its a blurred line between potential sloppiness, or deliberateness on the person part. Didn't even aim for the target lol.

I must also stress JKS, that this is the first time out of the hundreds of people who have come to our club from many different walks of life and style, that this happened. 

*To Dirty Dog*- there is an old adage you should never actually judge a person til you meet them. And I would never be presumptive of others skill level off of videos they post. Or to put it another way- those words are really only justified if you come meet me in person at our club (the space is free, and we welcome all). You will find much more than you giving credit to. Nothing I have ever done, other martial artists can't also do, and also better. I'm... fairly certain if you actually spoke to me as others on this board have 1 on 1 you'll find my personal views are a bit different than what is allowed on this part of the forum's format.

Also not sure what you mean by fighting with a flail chest. Only thing that comes to mind is during a 1st dan exam where either a side kick, or heel kick shattered most of the ribs on my right side of the body. And considering the entire point of the exam, 1 on 1 for a minute, 1 on 2 for a minute, 1 on 3 for a minute, 1 on 4 in a minute was both to test your fighting ability, stamina, and fighting spirit to survive. And most people can not do that. It takes time for that portion of the test to work its magic and change a person into an actual black belt. Most of the time people just defend, trying to manage, instead of actually fighting back, which is what this forces you to. And you never let go.

When my ribs broke, should I have stopped? Cried? And Never actually earned a real black belt as opposed to the many I'd earned at mcdojos? That was how it seemed then. Why do you think people in TKD wear chest protectors (at this particular school we were required to stop at blue belt). And this was the kind of school where you would fight even if pregnant. I was not attending during that, but the rules were simple- hit her anywhere but the face, throw her to the ground (normal for us to sweep or throw each other) and he would expel us. And he trained his black belts well enough to have that control.

And the pregnant lady gave birth to a perfectly healthy son who eventually became a 2nd dan under that same master.

You, and others may disagree with the intensity of how martial arts should be. But to me that is how the arts are becoming watered down and Americanized. How the real arts that inspired us to take them up are fading.

Hence that stupid argument of tradition verse modern arts. It's so short sighted. In 200 years MMA will be considered a traditional art. And if people are going to argue about the definition of what traditional or authentic really is they are being short sighted- and don't seem to me to know what that means to them. Or at least, if martial arts has no clear consensus on which is what, than it just tells me that this is a bias we just keep in our heads. MA is just MA. Hence why our club is an icon of a black circle with lines fading either toward or from it. Each line is a different style our club has seen, while the central circle encompass the true spirit of martial arts, which is in every style.

For example- on this board it is obvious I am a new ager, mixed martial artist. But every school I go to in this area, and there are many I have fine standing with, who all consider me a traditionalist. That isn't what I call myself, just what others who upon meeting me, and getting to know me in person do. It's devisive and pointless, likewise saying disparaging things like Super Alex. If you are doing your arts correctly, incorporating it into your life, you will be amazed at what the arts will allow you to do. Just explore and find that.

*To Kenshin*, the general consensus at the club is that it was a deliberate action. He has control of his kicks enough to hold them out and lower them, and his punches on the first few rotations were dead on. And good at that.

Then this happened, he came back for a week, haven't seen him since lol.

As for retaliating, I can't imagine a teacher doing that. Even if a student endangers me and I have to defend myself, the idea of 'he got me, I've got to get him' is so petty that I wouldn't deserve to be in a place to teach anyone anything. It wouldn't be about them, it'd be about me. and that's a godawful teacher in my book.

Plus I'm just not the type to lean toward revenge. I am Buddhist, and I believe in forgiveness, and while teaching I expect things to happen like this, sooner or later. 

*JKS* you are right- people have taken great time to show me how to be a better teacher. I have been a head instructor at schools I respect, clubs I loved, and even places I didn't respect.

If you are a teacher it shows. 

*To K-man-* you are right. If I ever did hurt a student in a serious manner, it would crush me. I stupidly aimed a very heavy roundhouse kick to my best student's head, before I realized he wasn't going to dodge it, and I was scared I might well, kill him (not worth risking with a muai thai kick like that). I blocked it hard enough I annihalated the metatarsals and cuneiforms in my foot. Took 3 months before I could walk without a limp- luckily for that part of the foot being broken you just need to basically use the foot so it'll heal. So let me emphasize- those I train with's safety is my priority. Even from myself if I get reckless. I will break my own foot to stop myself from hurting those I care about. Overlydramatic, but you find a way to learn how to initiate a muai thai roundhouse full force, then stop it midair, and come to me then. Which touches on a point JKS made- that control is about being able to stop, or aim in front of. I try telling my students you should be able by blackbelt to throw a punch full force, and stop it at any point you want. I did not know about certain techniques at the time which are not stoppable. A kip-up once executed must either be completed or you fall. A scissor kick done improperly will lead to ACL tearing if you try to abord mid air. The list goes on and on. Not making excuses- just pointing out that control is something vague when some martial arts encompass arts that decidedly have a lack of control. Krav Maga for example, and hence why few, at least in this area, spar with it.

But martial arts is an inherently dangerous art, depending on the style, and carries real risks. Hell, my favorite sparring partner just rejoined the club because of 3 months of recuperation  Kicked me in the shin, his toe hyper extended all the way back and the tendon tore a piece of bone off. All I did was stand there and get kicked. And he came from the very first school I came from, so I know he was trained well.

You can't control everything.

I'd like to think some people have enough faith in me that if I've been allowed to lead at multiple schools (once curriculum has been learned and I have passed examination) run black belt exams, etc, than I also know when things are getting out of hand, and what I need to do about it. I tend to just call break at this point then shift people around, and we're good to go after 30 seconds.

But there are points in every martial artist's career where things are just outside of our hands. I can remember one teacher of mine in Hapkido teaching a young class how to protect against groin attacks, and after class while speaking with a parent, a little kid came up and kicked up square in the groin while the master's back was turned. Did he hold a grudge? No, that student was there till the day our school closed. But he did have his belt on the rail for a very long time.


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## K-man (May 20, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> *To K-man-* you are right. If I ever did hurt a student in a serious manner, it would crush me. I stupidly aimed a very heavy roundhouse kick to my best student's head, before I realized he wasn't going to dodge it, and I was scared I might well, kill him (not worth risking with a muai thai kick like that).* I blocked it hard enough I annihalated the metatarsals and cuneiforms in my foot. *Took 3 months before I could walk without a limp- luckily for that part of the foot being broken you just need to basically use the foot so it'll heal. So let me emphasize- those I train with's safety is my priority. Even from myself if I get reckless. I will break my own foot to stop myself from hurting those I care about.


Alex, I thought I had seen a lot of strange things in the MAs but I have never seen anyone block their own kick. Perhaps you could tell me how it is done. Personally, if I launch a kick with intent, there is no way I have time to think about consequences and stop it. The best I could do is possibly pull the power but, even then, the weight of the leg alone is going to cause damage.  :asian:


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## Zenjael (May 20, 2013)

Let's just say the stark terror of killing or really badly hurting a friend, and going to jail made me act fast enough to basically kick myself. I remember the block well. Basically a downward angled block with a fist, which I used to effectively slam the hell out of the instep. But I am honest, I basically launched the kick and by the time my knee was past my waist and foot being extended I had realized he wasn't going to move. At that point it was either my arm (honestly thought I'd break the arm *shrug*) foot, or his head and neck. Shouldn't have been reckless, but I had been led to believe by him that he had far more experience than even I did, and was too trusting.

And when push comes to shove I'm grateful for the reflexes and speed life gifted me. 
Not my proudest moment, I assure you.

And yeah, I know, I'm a bit out there in terms of strangeness.

3 months of limping like a gimp. Was not fun.

Just hit him up on facebook. Going to quote his description lol.

'this is what it looked like if i remember rightyou grab your left ankle, then you grab the back of your head with your right arm, and you bash your head with your knee.
thats what it looked like you were trying to do'

I'm guessing to reach my foot since it was extended I palmed the instep with the bottom left corner of my hand as hard as I could. To put it lightly, it looked funny, but worked. Also sucked.


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## Aiki Lee (May 20, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> True, the more experienced you get, the more control you should have. But justbecause you have control over what you are doing, does not mean you can controlhow others are suddenly going to switch from gear 1, to gear 5.


I agree with you here. If a partner comes at you wayfaster than he should then sometimes he gets taken down hard. Bigger risk ofinjury here though obviously.



Zenjael said:


> We don't exist in a setting where I can tell people toleave, as this is NVCC property and students are welcome. I go to George Mason,so apart from being able to lead, I am not allowed to ask people to leave ifthey are students. It is complicated.


Wait. Whose group is it? Who is in authority? The leaderof the group should certainly be able to decide if someone can participate ornot.



Zenjael said:


> That was how it seemed then. Why do you think people in TKD wear chestprotectors (at this particular school we were required to stop at blue belt).


People who train in hard contact and wear chestprotectors do so, so their chests dont get injured. If you go as hard and fastas you can with no protective gear someone will be injured. Id never train ata school that encourages you to injure your fellows.




Zenjael said:


> And this was the kind of schoolwhere you would fight even if pregnant. I was not attending during that, butthe rules were simple- hit her anywhere but the face, throw her to the ground(normal for us to sweep or throw each other) and he would expel us. And hetrained his black belts well enough to have that control.
> 
> And the pregnant lady gave birth to a perfectly healthy son who eventuallybecame a 2nd dan under that same master.


By the old gods and the new! This is the most idiotic thingI have ever heard! This is a law suit waiting to happen. That woman should beashamed for doing such a thing when pregnant and the instructor should closehis school immediately if he encourages such reckless nonsense.



Zenjael said:


> You, and others may disagree with the intensity of howmartial arts should be. But to me that is how the arts are becoming watereddown and Americanized. How the real arts that inspired us to take them up arefading.


There is a difference between intensity and idiocy. Imsure the majority of us here practice things that non martial artists wouldthink were crazy or dangerous and they are dangerous, but they are alsocontrolled. 
To earn 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] dan in my system two of the thingsyou have to do are evade being skewered by a _real_ spear and perform randori with bokken against an opponent withbokken. These are indeed very dangerous but they are so highly controlled thatunless one is absolutely positive they will be successfully without causinginjury the test is not administered.



Zenjael said:


> . I stupidly aimed a very heavy roundhouse kick to mybest student's head, before I realized he wasn't going to dodge it, and I wasscared I might well, kill him (not worth risking with a muai thai kick likethat).


 
If you never planned on hitting him why did you aim athis head?



Zenjael said:


> I blocked it hard enough Iannihalated the metatarsals and cuneiforms in my foot.


How did you block a kick that you threw?




Zenjael said:


> Took 3 months before I could walkwithout a limp- luckily for that part of the foot being broken you just need tobasically use the foot so it'll heal. So let me emphasize- those I train with'ssafety is my priority. Even from myself if I get reckless. I will break my ownfoot to stop myself from hurting those I care about. Overlydramatic, but youfind a way to learn how to initiate a muai thai roundhouse full force, thenstop it midair, and come to me then.


You shouldnt be throwing things with full force unlessyou and your partner are willing to accept the outcome. If neither of you wantinjury then dont throw something full force, because it is supposed to injuresomeone!



Zenjael said:


> Which touches on a point JKSmade- that control is about being able to stop, or aim in front of. I trytelling my students you should be able by blackbelt to throw a punch fullforce, and stop it at any point you want.


This is another good way to get someone hurt. The forcesthat would act on the body here would risk considerable injury.



Zenjael said:


> I did not know about certaintechniques at the time which are not stoppable. A kip-up once executed musteither be completed or you fall. A scissor kick done improperly will lead toACL tearing if you try to abord mid air. The list goes on and on. Not makingexcuses- just pointing out that control is something vague when some martialarts encompass arts that decidedly have a lack of control. Krav Maga forexample, and hence why few, at least in this area, spar with it.


No. No. No. All martial arts have a focus on control andcontrol is not vague it is very specific. You restrain yourself and takecommand of yourself. Krav Maga does not lose control they are simply a moreaggressive system. No art has a decidedly lack of control only thepractitioners do. 




Zenjael said:


> You can't control everything.


No but I can control myself. If I injure myself it is myfault and I failed to control my body. If I injure my partner it is my faultbecause I failed to control my body or my ego. There are no accidents. Youmight not mean for something to happen but it is a lack of control on someonespart that causes injury.


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## Aiki Lee (May 20, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> Shouldn't have been reckless, but I had been led to believe by him that he had far more experience than even I did, and was too trusting.
> 
> Not my proudest moment, I assure you.
> 
> ...


The you should have hit him. If it is his fault for not moving then it is his fault he gets hit, but it is also your fault for picking such a risky area.


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## Zenjael (May 20, 2013)

I am Vice President and acting President currently. Professor Abushadi on NVCC faculty is our superviser. Since we are just establishing the rules, codes of conduct, etc., and because the room is the NVCC martial art room (mainly used by the club, but also the location for where the shotokan classes at our university are taught) I do not have authority to do anything more than request people to leave. I do have some shady tactics up my sleeve, which I've done in the past to shoo people away (once people tried to play a football game after we were already on location and kept passing plays through our group, so I had us do sprints through their game until they desisted. Also apologized for being rude to me, that was nice) I have 0 power to. Sure, I could give them a whomping, but ah, potentially getting the club banned or loss of charter is enough of an impetus for me to avoid causing trouble anymore.

I will say it's provided a strong impetus and I've been pushing to broaden our ability to do things like ask people not to come back. Remember, while I may have been a founding member, and most experienced member, and senior out of current membership, its a club, not a school.




> People who train in hard contact and wear chestprotectors do so, so their chests don&#8217;t get injured. If you go as hard and fastas you can with no protective gear someone will be injured. I&#8217;d never train ata school that encourages you to injure your fellows.



I understand that, but often at higher levels in hapkido most strikes even wearing chest gear will still penetrate and cause serious damage. It's better to put faith in massive amount of conditioning, preparation and practice how to block such things, than it is to put faith in the foam which turned Muhammed Ali into his mental condition today. We never tried to hurt each other, and injuries were rare. Given you don't count contusions.

The not wearing a chest protector was more of a metaphor- on the street you won't wear it if you get socked or kneed there. 

You are right Kenshin. I should  not be generalizing so much- but surely you realize that what I meant with Krav Maga is that the risk entailed is why they train in different ways. Like water around a rock. I did accept the consequences when I threw that kick, I was also lied to about his ability level, grossly so, and is why I threw the kick.



> To earn 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] dan in my system two of the thingsyou have to do are evade being skewered by a _real spear and perform randori with bokken against an opponent withbokken. These are indeed very dangerous but they are so highly controlled thatunless one is absolutely positive they will be successfully without causinginjury the test is not administered._



And in that I find myself strongly agreeing. I should not have been so stupid when I used that technique. Then again there are a lot of 'ifs and should nots' from a lot of experiences in martial arts. Part of the ordeal is picking ourselves up, dusting off and going at it again.



> The you should have hit him. If it is his fault for not moving then it is his fault he gets hit, but it is also your fault for picking such a risky area.



Yes it was. But I did learn a lot from this- that I do have the ability to intend that harm on others, that I can do that. It taught me the medium between extremes.

It was absolutely my fault, but since I'm fine, and he and I are on great terms... and we learned from it, doesn't make me regret it.


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## Zenjael (May 20, 2013)

And yes, it is strange to be an officer of a club at one college, while actually attending another.


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## Steve (May 20, 2013)

K-man said:


> Alex, I thought I had seen a lot of strange things in the MAs but I have never seen anyone block their own kick. Perhaps you could tell me how it is done. Personally, if I launch a kick with intent, there is no way I have time to think about consequences and stop it. The best I could do is possibly pull the power but, even then, the weight of the leg alone is going to cause damage.  :asian:


I knee barred myself once.  Getting the appropriate angle on the joint was difficult.  I had to dislocate my hip and both shoulders.  It was interesting, because in the end, I tapped out to the pain in my shoulders and not the pain from the knee bar.  Huh...  But, I still tapped myself out.


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## Cyriacus (May 20, 2013)

K-man said:


> Alex, I thought I had seen a lot of strange things in the MAs but I have never seen anyone block their own kick. Perhaps you could tell me how it is done. Personally, if I launch a kick with intent, there is no way I have time to think about consequences and stop it. The best I could do is possibly pull the power but, even then, the weight of the leg alone is going to cause damage.  :asian:



One time i struck myself in the nose with my bicep. It was the crappiest right hook i ever swung.


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## K-man (May 21, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> One time i struck myself in the nose with my bicep. It was the crappiest right hook i ever swung.


Unless you have a hooter bigger than John Elliott I'll call you on that one too!        On the other hand, if your bicep is that big, maybe I won't.


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## Dirty Dog (May 21, 2013)

This one time, at band camp...


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## Cyriacus (May 21, 2013)

K-man said:


> Unless you have a hooter bigger than John Elliott I'll call you on that one too!        On the other hand, if your bicep is that big, maybe I won't.



Dont make me take a picture of me emulating it, buddy. 

For science, hunch your shoulder up a bit then just swing a bit high. Either i have a really flexible joint somewhere, or... Yeah, i dont know. But i can replicate the effect at will


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## Zero (May 22, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> Let's just say the stark terror of killing or really badly hurting a friend, and going to jail made me act fast enough to basically kick myself. I remember the block well. Basically a downward angled block with a fist, which I used to effectively slam the hell out of the instep. But I am honest, I basically launched the kick and by the time my knee was past my waist and foot being extended I had realized he wasn't going to move. At that point it was either my arm (honestly thought I'd break the arm *shrug*) foot, or his head and neck. Shouldn't have been reckless, but I had been led to believe by him that he had far more experience than even I did, and was too trusting.
> 
> And when push comes to shove I'm grateful for the reflexes and speed life gifted me.
> Not my proudest moment, I assure you.
> ...



This seems like a lot of nonsense.  If you were able to effect such a "block" or negation of your own kick in this manner then there is no way in hell you were executing this kick with anything like full power or speed or in a manner that would otherwise have taken your partner's head off.  Therefore there was no need to carry out such a clumsy block of your own kick.  If you suffered such damage as a result in self-blocking such a weak and slow kick then you must be seriously prone to injury.

Are you saying you threw a full speed, full power kick that you would not have been able to "pull" or redirect but in the split second you realised it would connect and after your knee was chambered you were able to block this and arrest its motion with your own hand? And that the damage done was to your foot? Unless you are of super-ability (and your youtube link (while showing some ok tech in itself purely from some kicking aspects (sorry, some of the ok tech comment should be re your training partner)) makes it hard to believe this) you are out of touch with reality, even your own reality, if that is possible.

As for that youtube link, not really wanting to go there or critique but just for some constructive advice, outside of just having fun (I am sure you will say that is all that was) don't leave yourself so open to sweeps and have yourself on one leg for such long periods of time.  Even in fun sparring my mates or trusted fellow karateka would sweep the leg if I was leaving it exposed for so long.  You do it far too long and far too often.  You also often do quite a wide stance in close to your partner, this leaves you far too open to leg attacks, luckily for you your partner knows nothing about these.


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## Mauthos (May 22, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> One time i struck myself in the nose with my bicep. It was the crappiest right hook i ever swung.



In a fit of maybe stupidity or curiousity, I am not too sure which, I tried this at training last night.  Didn't hit my nose with my bicep, but almost dislocated my jaw!  Won't be doing that again :uhyeah:


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## Cyriacus (May 22, 2013)

Mauthos said:


> In a fit of maybe stupidity or curiousity, I am not too sure which, I tried this at training last night.  Didn't hit my nose with my bicep, but almost dislocated my jaw!  Won't be doing that again :uhyeah:



Maybe the WWE has been on to something all along...


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## Zero (May 22, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Maybe the WWE has been on to something all along...



Ahh, the homo-erotic but ever deadly bicep strike coupled with the g-string wedgie, not something to take lightly.


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## Zenjael (May 24, 2013)

> This seems like a lot of nonsense.



Much in life, and in the mistakes we make are nonsense.



> If you were able to effect such a "block" or negation of your own kick in this manner then there is no way in hell you were executing this kick with anything like full power or speed



You are correct, I was throwing it about half speed, but with enough power behind the technique that he and I both concur had I even knicked him, his jaw would have shattered.

The real aim of my kick was to startle him to kick it up a notch and give a lesson what we were doing is actually serious, not to actually make direct contact. However, I was willing to allow that kind of contact to him, because based upon his own proclaimed reputation and claim of speed, I was fairly certain he could have dodged such a telegraphed kick.



> Therefore there was no need to carry out such a clumsy block of your own kick. If you suffered such damage as a result in self-blocking such a weak and slow kick then you must be seriously prone to injury.



I would lot say the block was clumsy, just reliant on brute force, and less on technique. It was also less of a block, and more of a strike to my own limb. And ah, at one of the dojos I was fortunate to be allowed to train in, it was expected to break a one inch thick cinderblock be you adult or child. By the time of 3rd dan, 3 concrete slabs stacked on top of each other without spacing was required by both a side kick and a palm strike or elbow. 3 years ago I was able to break 3 cinderblocks, and even to this day am comfortable blocking a roundhouse kick with a heavy palm from even WTF practitioners. Though ah, I tend to still have to brace for any Muai Thai kicks.

That being said, means I was more than comfortable that I could outpunch my kick, given that the kick wasn't going full speed or power.



> Are you saying you threw a full speed, full power kick that you would not have been able to "pull" or redirect but in the split second you realised it would connect and after your knee was chambered you were able to block this and arrest its motion with your own hand? And that the damage done was to your foot?



No, I threw between 40-50% of what my actual speed is capable of, and my hands are much faster than my legs. For example in the 1 second where I can on average throw 5-6 solid punches, I can only do 2-3 solid kicks. The kick I threw was a Silat roundhouse, initiated with a swing, but with the leg bent so that upon maximum extent I would make contact between the instep and lower shin. 

I demonstrate this occasionally, but it is a difficult for many to actually perfect. Too many are afraid to test this against the wall lol. There is an ability to make contact with a strike in such a way that the kinetic energy of the strike transfers, and if one is fast enough, the kinetic energy will not have a chance to return, either because it disperses, or you moved faster than the initial acceleration of the kinetic force, which while interacting with a different material will either slow down, or less likely speed up.

If you punch say, a wall, physics mandates that energy be returned in equal force, the difference for us is that because we channel and focus our striking power this automatically causes our strikes to penetrate the surface. However, in martial arts we are sometimes taught how to strike and cause the kinetic energy in our strikes to internally enter the persons body through this principle. This is how some practitioners can strike you in the stomach, and you can feel it in the shoulder. Or in my case, with a heavybag they will feel it in their spine. If you strike and make the barest contact possible, say at 5 miles per hour, and can cause the internal energy of your external strike to extend say 1-2 inches, then pull the hand which made contact back at a speed greater than contact made, if done correctly the kinetic energy stays in the limb or structure that was made contact with. In Hapkido and live hands, this type of strike usually takes the path of least resistance and travels through your nerves, and hence why hapkido strikes can numb where they hit, or worse.

When I struck my foot, I did a sloppy version of that. Additionally, I've spent... years conditioning my knuckles against wood, concrete and nowadays cement and trees. My poor instep hasn't quite caught up to that conditioning.

Other examples of this can be seen when people do a successful side fall, dispersing the weight and spreading the contact. Another would be when thrown from a vehicle and shoulder roll. All it is manipulating the flow of kinetic energy either by directing it with penetration, or by transference. That last type of mechanic for striking is what I've found to be the general safest.



> Unless you are of super-ability (and your youtube link (while showing some ok tech in itself purely from some kicking aspects (sorry, some of the ok tech comment should be re your training partner)) makes it hard to believe this) you are out of touch with reality, even your own reality, if that is possible.



Super ability. I get a lot of people saying things along those lines. I doubt I am any different than any other martial art on this board, outside of our unique experiences. I think a lot of martial artists on this board forget that in many ways they are also superhuman, given that you consider what we do to be beyond normal human limits, and some people do take their arts to that degree.

Anyone who can successfully do a snapping punch and break the sound barrier, I would say is superhuman. The giftedman who because of incredible spatial awareness can tell where anything aimed at him will be, and can thus cut even pellets midair, is superhuman. The man who through meditation was able to hike everest in shorts was superhuman. Ip man, jumping from roof to roof in pursuit of a man ended up having the door slammed on him to a top level staircase by the robber, and instead of falling down, he controlled his balance, leaning almost backward, righted himself, and then continued the chase. That was superhuman. When my master broke 6 cinderblocks without any spacing between, demonstrating live hands application of hapkido, that was superhuman.

The arts truly are about a path in life that gifts us insight into true balance of life. Sure we learn through this kata, forms, and sparring, but each of us lives our lives uniquely, and as such this affects our abilities.

The youtube link had several points, almost all of which were ignored. And I did make the video partially for this forum as much for my friends.

1- The video was to demonstrate control, that he and I can go at that degree of speed, while retaining techniques without injuring each other.
2- The video was of 'promise' sparring, not actual sparring. What we did was closer to shadow boxing, since contact was made.
3- The video was to demonstrate mainly kicks.
4- The video was constrained mainly to karate. We loosely implemented moves form our others styles but mainly stuck to only using the Chung Do Kwan where we trained together. He and I both are move than comfortable to throw knees, elbows, shoulders, but that wasn't the point of the video.
5- The setting was not in a dojo, but in the common area of our community campus. Consider how much that impeded what we were trying to do.

Additionally, if you'll note the styles listed, we forbade throws, sweeps, grabs, holds, pressure point strikes and spiking blocks. That being said, even though we forbade jiujitsu or muai thai strikes, we still did use elements such as stances, etc. 

That is why I am oft in a longer stance- there was little risk of sweeping. 



> As for that youtube link, not really wanting to go there or critique but just for some constructive advice, outside of just having fun (I am sure you will say that is all that was) don't leave yourself so open to sweeps and have yourself on one leg for such long periods of time. Even in fun sparring my mates or trusted fellow karateka would sweep the leg if I was leaving it exposed for so long. You do it far too long and far too often. You also often do quite a wide stance in close to your partner, this leaves you far too open to leg attacks, luckily for you your partner knows nothing about these.



I really enjoyed your response, so I'm willing to go beyond the surface. The video was made for a lot of reasons, but the main reason it was edited in that fashion was just to make it more enjoyable. Frankly had I just left the footage as it was and taken out that terribad music, it would have come off better. But I digress. And criticism, constructive, is welcome.

But I must say this, watch the video closely, there is a point where I initiate a half snake through the grass, with my leg extended, and he could have stomped on it many times. I assure you when I say the individual I was sparring with has more than ample ability that if even an arm were extended, he could throw me across the room or into the ground. Likewise, he could easily go for a sweep. Everytime he's done that, he's ended up with one hell of a dead leg. I have rolled a rattan escrima over my shin long enough now that while I can't kick a tree, I did unfortunately have someone's toe break on my shin when they kicked it. Freak injury, their tendon ripped a piece of bone off from their toe curling so far back. So that being said, when it comes to sweeping, you can try it, but you never know if they not only know how to counter it, but might be willing to take it for that reason. I do. I see a sweep coming I just let them ram their shin against mine.

Given that you have never met me, nor knew the parameters of the rules governing our conduct in the video, I think your suggestions are valid. But, this was a video just of striking, and one meant for control. 

And unfortunately when I posted this video for the board, rather than look for what the video was trying to demonstrate, they opted instead to attack what they thought was inadequate. Not enough power, contact, etc. Frankly, I'm impressed by the amount of control Alec and I had. At the :53 mark is a clear ridgehand that made contact with his neck, yet he is fine. And literally a half second before that, you can see his leading left hand with a backfist get pulled from making contact with my face close enough to it that it looks like contact was made.

When you have that degree of control, yet can break 3 cinderblocks as I've seen him do, give him some credit lol.

You'll also note that I quite often am dropping my hands while kicking. That type of critique from that video was what I was hoping for. Instead it was made so personal in the disparagement that there's a whole thread I believe now just for bashing the video lol.

Also, concerning sweeping. Everyone is sweepable, but sweeping itself as a technique is quite easy to block or dodge, given it isn't the kick where its a flick low round house kick. You can brace with the leg being targeted for sweeping, you can angle the edge of your shin toward theirs while dipping your knee. You can do what I prefer, which is just to pick the leg up to kick them at the extended leg. You could step back.

The problem with keeping a closed stance as you suggest, at least from what I've found in Hapkido, is this actually concentrates your center of gravity, making it much easier for another Hapkido practitioner to literally grab you by the wrist and hip throw you to the ground. Spreading your legs out, especially in tae kwon do can oft negate that if you're braced in a stance. Granted, there was no throwing, but it wouldn't have been the first time Alec and I practiced together and randomly threw one in. Additionally, while we have near equal speed with hands, he is not quite as equal with his kicks because of injury. considering his reach on me, it was the wide stance allowing me to extend axe kick which kept him at bay. His only option was to rush in for a flurry.

You see, I've been doing kendo for nearly a decade, and we're constantly on the balls of our feet, charging at each other, oft larger massed people, and the only thing that keeps you from being bounced way the hell off once contact is made, is by developing root. You would find it much easier to throw me, than sweep me.

Sorry this was long- but all for you Zero.


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## Chris Parker (May 24, 2013)

This is not a personal attack, it's an observation.

Alex, you're a lunatic. You are completely delusional. You need to seek professional help.

Or you're a deeply committed troll.


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## Zenjael (May 24, 2013)

No, no, that was a personal attack friend. I am just used to them on this board now, so no worry.

I am not sorry my philosophy in martial arts comes off to you as lunacy, but those whos thinking we do not get can come off that way.

I am deeply committed, to my view of the martial arts. I'm willing to let that opine be changed if the reason is sufficient,
but sorry mate, not a troll.

If you constrain your training in the arts by what you think 'possible' and the limitations of that, you will never find your true peak. A great story about Bruce Lee can be found online, told by a workout partner. Everyday they would run 2 miles, until one day Bruce decided they'd run 5. The was already worn out by their two miles, and stopped, gasping he could not do that, it would kill him.

'So then die' Bruce Lee replied. It made the man so angry, and hurt to hear that from his friend and mentor that he ran the 5 miles out of anger. Afterward he asked Lee why he had said that, and Bruce answered,
'Because when something is alive it grows. When you reach a plateau and are too afraid to move and grow, you may as well already be dead.'

Chances are Chris that you find the people who condition their throats to get kicked in it, or those who condition their gnards to pick up bricks just as lunatic as I am to you in MA. The difference is, the martial arts are in the eye of the beholder, and spirit of the practitioner. And we all train differently. 

I did not think it was possible to be able to kick 50 times with one leg, without a kick repeating. While I can only do 30 without setting my legs down, I would have never gone past 3, or 5, had I never dreamed or imagined what I thought impossible, and worked toward it.

And to be frank Chris- I don't know your history as a martial artist. Your experience. Ability, even your name. But I do know that if I've been a head instructor at 4 schools, instructor at well over that number, than maybe you are missing something that every other martial artist who actually meets does not-

That I am sincere, that I find joy in the arts. And if that's crazy, so be it. I'm not hurting anyone, and just teaching my students this past year how to fall correctly saved two lives in two separate accidents. One from falling headfirst from a 40 foot scaffold, another thrown from his moped.

So sorry mate, I'm here to stay. I have a club I run that's free and open to all martial artists of all styles, with space larger than most dojos I've seen. I care too much to see them grow, and I do become a better martial artist through this board.

We've had 34 styles out of 300 people in our club at NVCC. So, even if I am a nut, I seem to be a productive one actually bringing martial artists together.


----------



## K-man (May 24, 2013)

I am interested in setting up a special award for supercilious nonsense.  I feel that we need some special emoticon to recognise excellence in writing garbage. Initially it might be this one ... :bs1: or :s444: or even :moon:

Regardless of what is chosen I have selected Alex to be the the first recipient of this award for this amazing piece of imaginative writing ...  



Zenjael said:


> Much in life, and in the mistakes we make are nonsense.
> 
> 
> You are correct, I was throwing it about half speed, but with enough power behind the technique that he and I both concur had I even knicked him, his jaw would have shattered.
> ...


Brilliant work Alex, keep going like this and you're in line for another. 
:asian:


----------



## Aiki Lee (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> The real aim of my kick was tostartle him to kick it up a notch and give a lesson what we were doing isactually serious, not to actually make direct contact. However, I was willing to allow that kind of contact to him, because based upon his own proclaimedreputation and claim of speed, I was fairly certain he could have dodged such atelegraphed kick.


You kicked him without having any intention to actually hit him believing he would dodge it? Unless you were using it as a feint for something else that would be meaningless. What benefit is there to throwing useless attacks you never intend to hit anyone with?




Zenjael said:


> That being said, means I was more than comfortable that I could outpunch mykick, given that the kick wasn't going full speed or power.


I still don&#8217;t see why you couldn&#8217;t just stop if you wereonly going half speed.




Zenjael said:


> Super ability. I get a lot of people saying things along those lines. I doubt Iam any different than any other martial art on this board, outside of ourunique experiences. I think a lot of martial artists on this board forget thatin many ways they are also superhuman, given that you consider what we do to bebeyond normal human limits, and some people do take their arts to that degree.


Trust me. You&#8217;re different than most of us.
And there is nothing superhuman about anything authentic in martial arts. If anything in martial arts were superhuman, then humans shouldn&#8217;t be able to do them.





Zenjael said:


> Thearts truly are about a path inlife that gifts us insight into true balance of life.


No they are not. Personally I think it is idiocy to treatmartial arts like some kind of religion. Do I think there is a spiritual component to living the martial way? Yes, for me there is. But this is a personal thing and not one inherent in martial arts themselves.



Zenjael said:


> The youtube link had severalpoints, almost all of which were ignored. And I did make the video partiallyfor this forum as much for my friends.
> 
> 1- The video was to demonstrate control, that he and I can go at that degree ofspeed, while retaining techniques without injuring each other.
> 2- The video was of 'promise' sparring, not actual sparring. What we did wascloser to shadow boxing, since contact was made.
> ...


1.   You retained no techniques. There was verylittle skill evident in anything except that you know how to stand on 1 footfor a while. To me it looked like you had no strategy, not tactics, and nogoal. It was mindless flailing from my perspective. If you feel I am missingsomething crucial please tell me what you think that is.

2.   What is &#8220;promise sparring&#8221;?


3.   You showed your leg flapping about, withsome degree of control, but there was no display of proper application of those kicks.

4.   I studied karate. People here study karate.You weren&#8217;t doing karate.

5.   So were there people around? If there were and you couldn&#8217;t really train, why practice there at all? If no one was around,who gives a fig?



Zenjael said:


> Additionally, if you'll note the styles listed, we forbade throws, sweeps, grabs, holds, pressure point strikes and spikingblocks.




There&#8217;s nothing wrong with working specifically on one thing like punching or kicking for drilling purposes.



Zenjael said:


> That being said, even though we forbade jiujitsu or muaithai strikes, we still did use elements such as stances, etc.



I&#8217;m interested to know what &#8220;elements&#8221; youthink you used.



Zenjael said:


> That is why I am oft in a longer stance- there waslittle risk of sweeping.



There were a lot of times you were open for sweeps, in the times you weren&#8217;t you were open for a lot of other things.





Zenjael said:


> But I must say this, watch the video closely, there is apoint where I initiate a half snake through the grass, with my leg extended,and he could have stomped on it many times.



I don&#8217;t know what &#8220;snake in the grass&#8221; is except as a euphemism. If your partner could have &#8220;stomped on it many times&#8221;, why didn&#8217;t you stop presenting it to him? 




Zenjael said:


> Likewise, he couldeasily go for a sweep. Everytime he's done that, he's ended up with one hell ofa dead leg.



Then he is doing it wrong.




Zenjael said:


> I have rolled a rattan escrima over my shinlong enough now that while I can't kick a tree, I did unfortunately havesomeone's toe break on my shin when they kicked it. Freak injury, their tendonripped a piece of bone off from their toe curling so far back. So that beingsaid, when it comes to sweeping, you can try it, but you never know if they notonly know how to counter it, but might be willing to take it for that reason. Ido. I see a sweep coming I just let them ram their shin against mine.



It seems no one has ever done a proper sweep on you then, but cause if done properly there is no way you can just take the hit and not have your legs taken out from under you. They must not be kicking hard enough or in the right target.



Zenjael said:


> Given that you have never met me, nor knew theparameters of the rules governing our conduct in the video, I think yoursuggestions are valid. But, this was a video just of striking, and one meantfor control.



And it was still a bad example.



Zenjael said:


> And unfortunately when I posted this video for theboard, rather than look for what the video was trying to demonstrate, theyopted instead to attack what they thought was inadequate. Not enough power,contact, etc. Frankly, I'm impressed by the amount of control Alec and I had.At the :53 mark is a clear ridgehand that made contact with his neck, yet he isfine. And literally a half second before that, you can see his leading lefthand with a backfist get pulled from making contact with my face close enoughto it that it looks like contact was made.





Zenjael said:


> Zenjael said:
> 
> 
> > We get that you avoided clobbering eachother, the big reason I think it is a bad video is because there is no strategic thought to what either of you are doing. No one is attempting to take control, it&#8217;s not even like you could say you were practicing a drill because there is no discernible purpose to what you&#8217;re doing other than &#8220;have control&#8221;which you could demonstrate by just standing completely motionless!
> ...


----------



## Chris Parker (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> No, no, that was a personal attack friend. I am just used to them on this board now, so no worry.
> 
> I am not sorry my philosophy in martial arts comes off to you as lunacy, but those whos thinking we do not get can come off that way.
> 
> ...



Alex, I'll clarify.

I'm not saying you're a lunatic for your passion, desire, interest, or anything of the kind. I'm saying you're delusional, and a lunatic, due to the absolute bizarre garbage you keep spouting. I'm saying you're delusional due to the flatly beyond unrealistic comments (mainly about your own perceived abilities and strength/power) which simply go against all reality, whether in understanding of psychology, martial arts, bio-mechanics, or simply biology. I'm saying you're a delusional lunatic for comments such as (in this thread alone) the idea that you would kill your partner if your kick connected... or that even if you just clipped him, you'd "shatter his jaw"... Your perception of the physical realities is so out of whack with actual reality that there are only two possibilities: Either you are a troll, and are saying these things for fun, in order to aggravate members here, or you genuinely believe what you're saying, which would place you so far down the scale of delusional mental illness that you are truly a lunatic. Clinically speaking, of course.

So, which is it?

Oh, and if you're genuinely a teacher of anyone beyond little kids, I feel truly sorry for the students.


----------



## Zenjael (May 24, 2013)

Lot of replies and I have a short amount of time to answer them, I'll try to be as succinct as possible.



> You kicked him without having any intention to actuallyhit him believing he would dodge it? Unless you were using it as a feint forsomething else that would be meaningless. What benefit is there to throwinguseless attacks you never intend to hit anyone with?



Bad habit of looking where hes aiming, chain punching to that same spot, and leaning too far forward. It was to ward. When I practice with people, say 5 on 5s, promise sparring, or light sparring, I throw a lot of superfluous techniques which outside of a instructing context would be useless. I threw the kick aiming to miss, but he unfortunately charged in.

You've never thrown a technique at a student to demonstrate how you could have gotten them from whatever habit is making them vulnerable?



> I still don&#8217;t see why you couldn&#8217;t just stop if you wereonly going half speed.



I was uncertain just how close he would get. The point is simple- I shouldn't have thrown it.



> Trust me. You&#8217;re different than most of us.
> And there is nothing superhuman about anything authenticin martial arts. If anything in martial arts were superhuman, then humansshouldn&#8217;t be able to do them.



My apology for the misnomer. People generally have an expectation of what's considered normal. I have seen many times through martial arts people do things others would consider superhuman. Doesn't mean super powered, it just means that their definition of human limitations is less than what we can actually do.



> 1. You retained no techniques. There was verylittle skill evident in anything except that you know how to stand on 1 footfor a while. To me it looked like you had no strategy, not tactics, and nogoal. It was mindless flailing from my perspective. If you feel I am missingsomething crucial please tell me what you think that is.



Nope you got that pretty pat. Since there was no set identifier to win, score points, etc, we basically just threw techniques willy nilly and reacted to them. This was about just having a good time, and showing a video to this forum that I am in fact not hitting people too hard. He and I used to do this all the time, and it had been several years since our teacher retired so it's been awhile since we stuck to a format which you could really say had a definitive training point. 



> 2. What is &#8220;promise sparring&#8221;?



In some forms of TKD this is where one person attacks 3 times, the other backs up, then the defender attacks 3 times, repeat. Sometimes shadow boxing is referred to as promise sparring.



> 3. You showed your leg flapping about, withsome degree of control, but there was no display of proper application of thosekicks.



I'm a bit confused by this. The application for kicks is either to damage, jam, intercept, or block.



> 4. I studied karate. People here study karate.You weren&#8217;t doing karate.



I suppose if you REALLY want me to be specific, Alec and I mainly used Chung Do Kwan, some Okinawa-Te. But ah sorry mate, every single time I folded my knee after kicking, say from a front kick to a round-kick, that was utilizing the Shotokan methodology of kicking.



> 5. So were there people around? If there wereand you couldn&#8217;t really train, why practice there at all? If no one was around,who gives a fig?



Actually, we used that spot because there were few people. Less risk of interference.



> I don&#8217;t know what &#8220;snake in the grass&#8221; isexcept as a euphemism. If your partner could have &#8220;stomped on it many times&#8221;,why didn&#8217;t you stop presenting it to him?



I baited him to stomp the leg, because he is taller than me, and as a joke to poke fun at me, he lowered himself to my height. The only only way for me to do that without getting whomped would have been to pull a move he either didn't expect or was familiar with. And once he went for the bait you can see I use it to attack him. In a real setting, I'd never do that, and if this was real, Alec would have snapped my leg. 



> It seems no one has ever done a propersweep on you then, but cause if done properly there is no way you can just takethe hit and not have your legs taken out from under you. They must not bekicking hard enough or in the right target.



I hope by the 10th time we've been swept, we all learn to keep an eye out for it. Most of the time the sweeps fail for the exact reason you cited. But then again, I've also had a number fail for the reasons I gave above.



> We get that you avoided clobbering eachother, the big reason I think it is a bad video is because there is nostrategic thought to what either of you are doing. No one is attempting to takecontrol, it&#8217;s not even like you could say you were practicing a drill becausethere is no discernible purpose to what you&#8217;re doing other than &#8220;have control&#8221;which you could demonstrate by just standing completely motionless!



thank you for these words specifically. You are right. The only real point of this idea apart from fooling around was to demonstrate control in a chaotic setting. I would say, at best, our fighting strategy there was either nonexistant, or just chaos itself lol.

If I post a video again, is that what you would be looking for?



> Hip throws are performed because you makeyour center of gravity lower than your opponent&#8217;s. I don&#8217;t know what you meanby &#8220;concentrates your center of gravity&#8221; but when you get someone on their toesin order to throw them their center of gravity goes higher thus making themmore unstable and because you are lower and act as a fulcrum they go over. Ifyou do it right of course.



Concentrating your center of gravity is where mentally you are adjusting your feel of it. You aren't actually moving it. It'd be like if you lost your balance, but without moving your body regain that balance.



> Wide postures do make throwing a bit moredifficult, but it reduces your movement a lot and is in my opinion a terribleposition to try and protect yourself in. It&#8217;s to easy to get overwhelmed whenin a low, deep posture.



Agreed, but it depends on the situation. Some people are heavy treaders even while being light on their feet. The problem with deep stances is that a lot of people place their whole foot on the ground. Im usually on one half of the ball of each foot. Then again, if I'm circle walking, I am not doing that fighting stance at all anymore.



> And axe kicks are just about completelyuseless, especially for what you were trying to do.



I disagree, you can use the axe kicks for many things. I primarily use it to knock hands away. Occasionally I'll use it to make face contact, but it really is a great kick for the collar bone, and if you target the heel at a limb it can deaden it. 



> In order to throw or sweep someone, youmust affect balance mentally and physically. If you can be thrown, you can be swept.



Yep, this is definately the truth.


----------



## Zenjael (May 24, 2013)

> So, which is it?
> 
> Oh, and if you're genuinely a teacher of anyone beyond little kids, I feel truly sorry for the students.



Chris, I answered you before. It is so I can be corrected, when the information is constructive. I am glad for you explaining your sentiment though.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> Super ability. I get a lot of people saying things along those lines. I doubt I am any different than any other martial art on this board, outside of our unique experiences. I think a lot of martial artists on this board forget that in many ways they are also superhuman, given that you consider what we do to be beyond normal human limits, and some people do take their arts to that degree.
> 
> Anyone who can successfully do a snapping punch and break the sound barrier, I would say is superhuman.



In Alex's defense, this is true.  Anyone who can punch faster than the speed of sound _is_ superhuman.  Just like those guys who can catch bullets and leap over tall buildings in a single bound.  I'm sure we aren't so cynical as to believe these people don't exist.


----------



## Chris Parker (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> Chris, I answered you before. It is so I can be corrected, when the information is constructive. I am glad for you explaining your sentiment though.



You have been corrected since you arrived. You continue with the same delusional garbage. Why should we keep correcting you? 

You might have noticed I've given up going through the abysmal mess of each of your posts... it's just not worth the effort.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 24, 2013)

:bs:
:BS:

We need a larger BS flag....



Zenjael said:


> Much in life, and in the mistakes we make are nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Zero (May 24, 2013)

Alex, thank you for your responses, however, either Chris is right in one of his suppositions and you are an accomplished troll and a dedicated one at that or you are sincere in your thoughts and words.  I would like to believe you are not a troll and I think that you are sincere and do believe in what you are posting.

I would say from you video that you do display some skill with your balance and applications (but nothing more than should be expected) but somehow you are I fear quite out of touch with reality when it comes to MA and fighting - actual fighting.  You do appear young and very eager, so much can be understood or forgiven, but even so many of your statements or assertions just do not seem grounded in reality or and many of your comments do not stack up with the experience and knowledge of versed or veteran practitioners. 

 If you really think a palm strike of yours could stand up to or stop a legitmate, full power muay thai roundhouse (or any roundhouse with the shin as the striking weapon) then you are teetering very closely towards Chris' definition of delusional.  Either that or you simply have never experienced a true roundhouse kick.   My take on this is that you are sincere and have some training experience but I do not think you can have competed or trained in any full contact environment (which is absoultely fine!!) but I think the majority of your experience must be of the type as per your video, i.e. "play-about", no/limited contact.  Coupled with this, is the problem that you have either had teachers/instructors that have never taken the time or had the ability to teach you the sinmple truths about a fight or, as I think may be the case, you have flitted from style to style and taken some techniques but none of the home truths.  You may think you are training or fighting hard or doing full-on conditioning but I am afraid this is not the case.  I think if you find yourself in a real tournament or a serious fight you are going to get severely crunched but it may be the wake-up call you drastically need.

Some other of your comments as noted above such as "shattering jaws" etc add to this conclusion , at least on my behalf.

You need to understand how this can be at first accommodated but then be found frustrating for more experienced members on this forum.

Let me stress, I am not trying to be offensive or run you down but I am hoping you will take some time and self-evaluate and think on these things, really look into yourself and think on these things (as I do think you are intelligent).  Then leave this Uni MA environment you are in, if you can (I know cost and location/travel can be an issue), stop training on your own, stop training with the people and friends you are currently training with and find a decent teacher and/or school (a small no-nonsense school preferably) and spend some time there.  I'm open minded to most styles of MA but I think at this stage the most benefical type for you will not be the soft styles but rather will be something like muay thai or kyokoshin or even boxing.  You can then move on from there.  This is all said to help you as you are missing so much.  You could go on happily for the rest of your life believing and stating what you currently do but you will be doing yourself a disservice in the long run, please believe me on this one.


----------



## Aiki Lee (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> You've never thrown a technique at a student to demonstrate how you could havegotten them from whatever habit is making them vulnerable?


No. If I spot a bad habit and can effectively attack mytraining partner I attack him and knock him on his ***. I expect them to do thesame to me.





Zenjael said:


> My apology for the misnomer. People generally have anexpectation of what's considered normal. I have seen many times through martialarts people do things others would consider superhuman. Doesn't mean superpowered, it just means that their definition of human limitations is less thanwhat we can actually do.


OK. I agree with the way you worded this.




Zenjael said:


> Nope you got that pretty pat. Since there was no set identifier to win, scorepoints, etc, we basically just threw techniques willy nilly and reacted tothem. This was about just having a good time, and showing a video to this forumthat I am in fact not hitting people too hard. He and I used to do this all thetime, and it had been several years since our teacher retired so it's beenawhile since we stuck to a format which you could really say had a definitivetraining point.


 
See personally I dont see anything to gain from filmingthat and showing it to people. Its ok to goof around sometimes, but there isreally no benefit to that kind of sparring in my opinion that isnt betterserved by doing something else.




Zenjael said:


> In some forms of TKD this is where one person attacks 3 times, the other backsup, then the defender attacks 3 times, repeat. Sometimes shadow boxing isreferred to as promise sparring.


Thank you for your clarification. 





Zenjael said:


> I'm a bit confused by this. The application for kicks iseither to damage, jam, intercept, or block.


Without seeing the follow through of such things I amunsure how you personally would utilize them effectively. Without a tacticalapproach I cant see how you plan to chain such movements together and what youwould target and why. Thats what Ive been looking for in your videos. 




Zenjael said:


> I suppose if you REALLY want me to be specific, Alec and I mainly used Chung DoKwan, some Okinawa-Te. But ah sorry mate, every single time I folded my kneeafter kicking, say from a front kick to a round-kick, that was utilizing theShotokan methodology of kicking.


A lot of people think that mimicking the mechanics of atechnique means you are utilizing the art that technique comes from, but thatsnot how it works. Every martial art has a martial philosophy expressed throughtechniques. Its not enough that it looks like a karatekas kick, you have touse it how a karateka would.





Zenjael said:


> I baited him to stomp the leg, because he is taller than me, and as a joke topoke fun at me, he lowered himself to my height. The only only way for me to dothat without getting whomped would have been to pull a move he either didn'texpect or was familiar with. And once he went for the bait you can see I use itto attack him. In a real setting, I'd never do that, and if this was real, Alecwould have snapped my leg.


So you were playing not training. Training involvesimproving what youre doing to increase your martial skill. Performing thingsyoud never actually do doesnt aid you in any way.




Zenjael said:


> I hope by the 10th time we've been swept, we all learn to keep an eye out forit. Most of the time the sweeps fail for the exact reason you cited. But thenagain, I've also had a number fail for the reasons I gave above.


You dont take out someones legs when they are inposition to defend against it. You must properly set up the sweep or takedown.You never go for your technique right away, you set up your technique and makethe guy believe you are trying to do something else.




Zenjael said:


> thank you for these words specifically. You are right. The only real point ofthis idea apart from fooling around was to demonstrate control in a chaoticsetting. I would say, at best, our fighting strategy there was eithernonexistant, or just chaos itself lol.
> 
> If I post a video again, is that what you would be looking for?


If you were to post another video I would be interestedin seeing your strategic approach. How would you actually do your technique inapplication against a realistic attacker?





Zenjael said:


> I disagree, you can use the axe kicks for many things. I primarily use it toknock hands away. Occasionally I'll use it to make face contact, but it reallyis a great kick for the collar bone, and if you target the heel at a limb itcan deaden it.


Im really going to have to disagree with you there. I dontthink the axe kick is useful for any of those things as there are much more reliablemethods to get those results.

By the way (and this is for everyone), Im sorry if myposts can be difficult to read at times. Since I tend to lose what Im typingdirectly into the reply box as I often get the message of martial talk is notresponding Ive taken to copying everything into Word, then copying it back toMT. This jumbles up the spacing for some reason and while I try to fix it inediting I never seem to catch it all.
Im really a better writer than I appear to be! :uhyeah:
well, at least I pretend that I am.


----------



## Zero (May 24, 2013)

Generally I would agree that the axe kick is not the one to put at the top of anyone's repertoire but it can have it's place and can be a collar bone buster and can effect a KO, it can have a nasty downward swipe across the head or face. Very, very few can use this as an offensive tech without opening themselves to a can of wup-ar#^.  Andy Hug was one of the few that used this very kick to brilliant effect on numerous occassions against world class karate and K1 guys.  When done right and in close it is actually a hard kick to block. I have trained this kick a lot and had to worked a lot on flexibility to do so but even so have only used this in sparring and for fun and never in a serious tournament (I like to think I will one day).

I would agree that there are more reliable and "safer" ways to do a knock out kick but there is not much that can replicate the downward sweep to the head or the downward impact to the collar bone of an axe kick, no other kick I am aware of and a fist or hand strike does not have the same travel/distance ability or impact power (unless you got one monster long set of arms!!).  Again, this does not mean these are the strikes you will be going for.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 24, 2013)

This thread reminds me a bit of those pop star audition shows, where the judges panel are brutally honest with the teenagers who can't really sing and don't have any talent but are somehow blissfully unaware of that fact. You laugh, for a while, and then you realise that there might be something fundamentally not quite right about the candidate, and maybe it's not ok and perhaps a bit cruel to laugh. Still, it makes for popular entertainment. And terrible, truly awful music.

Here are some highlights of absolute loose stool water, edited together over a Celine Dion emotional rollercoaster warblefest:



Zenjael said:


> Much in life, and in the mistakes we make are nonsense....
> 
> ...he and I both concur had I even knicked him, his jaw would have shattered....
> 
> ...



The palm block vs WTF thing is just priceless,  as is the leg snapping. Hilarious. It's the David Brent of martial arts.

Gnarlie


----------



## jks9199 (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> You are correct, I was throwing it about half speed, but with enough power behind the technique that he and I both concur had I even knicked him, his jaw would have shattered.


Half-speed, but still so powerful that you would have shattered his jaw?  I'm more than a little skeptical.  While it's overly simplistic for the human body, F=ma^2.  Half the power, and you reduce the force by the square of 1/2.  At half speed, you should have easily been able to deflect or redirect your kick without some insane attempt at self-blocking.


> No, I threw between 40-50% of what my actual speed is capable of, and my hands are much faster than my legs. For example in the 1 second where I can on average throw 5-6 solid punches, I can only do 2-3 solid kicks. The kick I threw was a Silat roundhouse, initiated with a swing, but with the leg bent so that upon maximum extent I would make contact between the instep and lower shin.


 More on this part in a few moments...  For the moment, let's just note that you're claiming your punch takes about .2 seconds.





> I demonstrate this occasionally, but it is a difficult for many to actually perfect. Too many are afraid to test this against the wall lol. There is an ability to make contact with a strike in such a way that the kinetic energy of the strike transfers, and if one is fast enough, the kinetic energy will not have a chance to return, either because it disperses, or you moved faster than the initial acceleration of the kinetic force, which while interacting with a different material will either slow down, or less likely speed up.
> 
> If you punch say, a wall, physics mandates that energy be returned in equal force, the difference for us is that because we channel and focus our striking power this automatically causes our strikes to penetrate the surface. However, in martial arts we are sometimes taught how to strike and cause the kinetic energy in our strikes to internally enter the persons body through this principle. This is how some practitioners can strike you in the stomach, and you can feel it in the shoulder. Or in my case, with a heavybag they will feel it in their spine. If you strike and make the barest contact possible, say at 5 miles per hour, and can cause the internal energy of your external strike to extend say 1-2 inches, then pull the hand which made contact back at a speed greater than contact made, if done correctly the kinetic energy stays in the limb or structure that was made contact with. In Hapkido and live hands, this type of strike usually takes the path of least resistance and travels through your nerves, and hence why hapkido strikes can numb where they hit, or worse.


No.  Review the physics.





> Super ability. I get a lot of people saying things along those lines. I doubt I am any different than any other martial art on this board, outside of our unique experiences. I think a lot of martial artists on this board forget that in many ways they are also superhuman, given that you consider what we do to be beyond normal human limits, and some people do take their arts to that degree.
> 
> Anyone who can successfully do a snapping punch and break the sound barrier, I would say is superhuman. The giftedman who because of incredible spatial awareness can tell where anything aimed at him will be, and can thus cut even pellets midair, is superhuman. The man who through meditation was able to hike everest in shorts was superhuman. Ip man, jumping from roof to roof in pursuit of a man ended up having the door slammed on him to a top level staircase by the robber, and instead of falling down, he controlled his balance, leaning almost backward, righted himself, and then continued the chase. That was superhuman. When my master broke 6 cinderblocks without any spacing between, demonstrating live hands application of hapkido, that was superhuman.





Tony Dismukes said:


> In Alex's defense, this is true.  Anyone who can punch faster than the speed of sound _is_ superhuman.  Just like those guys who can catch bullets and leap over tall buildings in a single bound.  I'm sure we aren't so cynical as to believe these people don't exist.



OK, let's look at that punching faster than sound...  I'll give Alex his word that he punches 5 to 6 punches in a second.  We'll use five, because .2 seconds is easier.  Let's even give him further benefit, and look at 2 scenarios.  The first is covering about 1 foot to the target from sparring range.  So, he's covering 1 foot in .2 seconds, in that scenario, equivalent to 5 fps, right?  The speed of sound is roughly 1,126 fps.  So...  Not even close!  OK, let's maximize his speed.  Let's figure he's selling 3 feet from a chambered position at his chest.  That's probably a pretty big guy... (I'm 5-9, average length arms, and I just measured 2 feet from my chest to the end of my punch.  Maybe a another 2 or 3 inches really from a chamber).  So, we've tripled the speed (covering three times the distance in the same time; speed=distance/time) to 15 fps.  Still nowhere close to the speed of sound.

The stuff you've listed sounds like movie scenes (except the 6 block break; that's impressive, but believable).   Movie's ain't reality.  I don't know how to say it more clearly.  I did just look up the guy (Wim Hof) who climbed Everest in shorts.  That's pretty impressive, and freaky.


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## K-man (May 24, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> :bs:
> :BS:
> 
> We need a larger BS flag....


That is exactly why I was suggesting the need for a new emoticon.  :asian:


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## Josealb (May 24, 2013)

Faster than the speed of sound, huh? Well, the fastest punch in the Guinness book of world records is 44 mph. Considering that the speed of sound is 760 mph, well...no need to kick a downed horse.


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## Dirty Dog (May 24, 2013)

K-man said:


> That is exactly why I was suggesting the need for a new emoticon. :asian:



Maybe something like this.



or
View attachment $BS pig.jpg

Just to make it easier to reply to an Alex post.


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## K-man (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> I suppose if you REALLY want me to be specific, Alec and I mainly used Chung Do Kwan, some Okinawa-Te. But ah sorry mate, every single time I folded my knee after kicking, say from a front kick to a round-kick, that was utilizing the Shotokan methodology of kicking.


Alex, in the time you have been on this forum you have claimed to have trained or reached instructor level for just about every martial art on this planet.  Whether you practise Chung Do Qwan or not I could not possibly tell as what you have posted is more like the style my four year old grandson uses when we 'play' karate. The main difference is that he doesn't do your flashy kicks. I'm thinking if he is as good as you were at his age I really should be giving him his black belt for his fifth birthday. That would put him on course to be as good as you by the time he gets to 18. (Actually, no offence, he will be a lot better than you at 18 or I shouldn't be teaching.)

As far as I can remember, this is the first time you have claimed to practise Okinawa-Te. I find that really interesting as the guy who developed Chung Do Qwan is alleged to have studied Kung Fu in China before getting his black belt in Shotokan from Funakoshi. That being the case, why would you study Okinawa-Te? There would only be a handful of schools teaching that. If you are talking about Doversola's Okinawa-Te then what you have demonstrated is pretty much the opposite. If you are talking about the old style of Okinawa-Te as practised in Okinawa in the early 1900's then you are even further away. That is what evolved into Okinawan Karate of various flavours. That must mean you are referring to Te as practised in Okinawa prior to 1900, before if had the kicking and striking added. I find that really interesting because I actually teach what I believe to be 'Te'. I call what I do Tegumi. What you show is as far from what I teach as Pluto is from Mars. 

For your claim to practise Okinawa-te, I award you ... <drum roll> ...  :bs1:


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