# The reasons for? Siu Lim Tau movements?



## ella_guru (Oct 2, 2010)

I have some questions about why we do the things in Siu Lim Tau that we do, mostly the "second part"

The motion where you have your arms crossed and that shoot out to the sides. I'm hard pressed to think this is some sort of attack if you have an opponent to the arms length and side of you.... 

Same question for the two hands shooting behind you. This does not seem very wing chun... What is the purpose?

Thanks friends


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## Danny T (Oct 2, 2010)

I feel SLT is more about learning about one&#8217;s body. Strength through structure rather than muscle and how to use body weight by relaxation over tension by using proper movements and positions than it is about fighting. The movements of SLT can be particular techniques however, I prefer to instruct the understanding of the concepts and technique then becomes a by-product of understanding movement and what is available within movement.

As to the specific of what we call Saut Sao it is understanding the connection to the motherline through the scapular, shoulder, elbow, and forearm. Once understood in your body the ability to prevent and counter a standing armbar becomes very easy. (Of course it can be what is most obvious a knife hand strike.) When understood when contacting an opponents arm the practitioner can manipulate and control the opponents center through the arm during bridge contact.

To the two hands shooting behind you it is about controlling center of gravity as well as controlling and redirecting force. As for a technique how about countering and redirecting the force from a bent armbar. (kimura for you BJJers)


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## matsu (Oct 2, 2010)

Don't forget there will b many different answers from many of us with diff lineages and most are right(if they work lol)
and also many moves in the forms are actually single arm techniques but done as doubles for the benefit of learning and transition. 
My fav application of the rear two handed is to get out of a bear hug from behind but there are prob lots more variations. 
This could b an epic long thread 
matsu


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## BloodMoney (Oct 2, 2010)

ella_guru said:


> I'm hard pressed to think this is some sort of attack if you have an opponent to the arms length and side of you....
> 
> Same question for the two hands shooting behind you. This does not seem very wing chun... What is the purpose?



Your hard pressed to think of an attacker behind or at your side, really? 

Danny answers this question pretty well, but I would expand by saying it absolutely is a strike and a practical attack you are drilling, in addition to a concept and a nice stretch.

That chopping hand out to your side can be very powerful in itself, especially when delivered to the neck or temple, but I think of it more as a distance measuring movement (as in swiping your hand out to your side when you notice an attacker in your peripheral). This will let you feel out an attacker on your flank, as well as make contact (even if it doesnt hurt them) in which case its basically Chi Sau from there. Such a rapid "chop" will also pause many attackers, or make them flinch, in preparation for perhaps a pivot punch or other follow up attacks.

Also its teaching you an elbow to your side. Test it, youll see. Get a partner standing real close (as in the pad no more than fist distance from your elbow) on your side, small pad on his chest. Now start with your arms crossed a la the part of Siu Lim Tau we are discussing. Now if you elbow right into the pad youll notice its not very powerful, especially at such close range (and of course your not winding the attack up, just going from where your elbow is already). Now try it with a bit of expansion, as if swimming almost...not too exaggerated, but expanding that circle your hands make so that you strike the pad at an angle and go into it in a 3D sphere type strike (sorry hard to explain in writing, but its fresh on my mind I took the boys through it last night in fact). You will notice a lot more power once you get that relaxed expansion down, mean elbow trust me.

The two hands behind you can also be a strike to the groin, to make an opponent who is bear hugging or choking you flinch his hips back away from you therefore making room to aid in your escape or further attacks.


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## sgerhardt45 (Oct 2, 2010)

> The motion where you have your arms crossed and that shoot out to the sides.



I've seen this be a lot of techniques- flying elbow chop (fei jiang or saat geng), Laan Sao (fencing hand) and cau sao (pulling hand). 

Remember, WC is a conceptual art. That motion just shows you how to go from short arm to long arm and from long arm back to short. WC is primarily a short arm system, doesn't mean we don't have a few long arm bits in there too.

Pulling cao sau in to a flying elbow strike to the neck is a fun/nasty combo. Try it out next time you chi sao


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## Vajramusti (Oct 2, 2010)

ella_guru said:


> I have some questions about why we do the things in Siu Lim Tau that we do, mostly the "second part"
> 
> The motion where you have your arms crossed and that shoot out to the sides. I'm hard pressed to think this is some sort of attack if you have an opponent to the arms length and side of you....
> 
> ...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------Diffrent people can count "parts" in different ways-so the questions can be more clear than they are right now.If you have a good sifu-suggest that you  ask him.FWIW- in what I do...the prequel is the opening of the form & there are differences right there-then you get into ygkym. Then in the first part(slow) you do the tan, huen, wu, fook motions.  Then the second part begins with a gum sau straight DOWN right close to the left side of your body.Then you do the same on the right. Not shooting out to the side-which means you are really in a different line- possibly TWC? The gum sao in the slt helps DEVELOP the gum sao as a palm, ofcourse helps elbow development and the shoulder joint as well. 
When the development of the joints take place- many different applications can emerge.
Not distinguishing between the function of skill and body and motion  development on the one hand and applications is the source of many problems in learning and teaching the art IMO.The development of each motion can have many applications.
joy chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com


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## mook jong man (Oct 2, 2010)

ella_guru said:


> I have some questions about why we do the things in Siu Lim Tau that we do, mostly the "second part"
> 
> *The motion where you have your arms crossed and that shoot out to the sides. I'm hard pressed to think this is some sort of attack if you have an opponent to the arms length and side of you.... *
> 
> ...


 
As long as you do Wing Chun you will be discovering new applications for these movements for years to come.

So no matter how weird the movement seems to you at the moment , have faith that there is a very sound logical reason behind it .

The movements in the form are a set of exercises , as well as having a multitude of applications for each particular movement.


You say *hands shooting out to the sides *, in our lineage they are slashing out to the sides.
This has many applications , in its simplest form it is a strike to the side of you , using anywhere from your elbow to the edge of your hand depending on the range of the attacker , usually paired with a pivot to increase power.

But I can also use it to deflect an incoming straight punch from the side , redirecting the punch and simultaneously striking his throat , similarly I can use it to collapse a boxing type guard from the side and strike through with the edge of my hand , with out having to orientate myself to square on to Pak Sau and punch.

The movements where you are palm striking down are mostly palm striking exercises , to teach you proper use of the elbow and the wrist and increase shoulder flexibility , particularly with the double palm strike to the back.

But these also have applications as well , as has already been mentioned the double palm strike to the back is a strike to the groin or bladder area when a opponent has you in a bear hug and both your arms are trapped and the level of his grab is around your elbow joints or lower.

A lot of people get this one wrong because they start trying to use brute strength to try and muscle their forearms around to the back and they find the partner can resist ,_* DONT.*_

As with everything in Wing Chun it begins from your elbows , use both your elbows to *expand outwards and towards the rear   first* . Exactly as you do after you have done your two palm strikes to the side in the form

Expanding your elbows first creates a little bit of space for you to get your arms around to the back and strike the groin , usually because the points of your elbows are pressing into his arms and causing him pain.
Sometimes just the fact that the points of your elbows are pressing into arms will be enough to get the release all by itself.


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## ella_guru (Oct 2, 2010)

Hey thanks alot guys! I really appreciate the honesty and sharing of different opinions that goes on here. I have so much fun doing this so it's a nice place to get some different perspectives from outside of my club or to just activate those pleasure parts of my brain while not training.


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## WC_lun (Oct 3, 2010)

There are multitude of techniques based on each movement of Sil Lin Tao.  One of the things to keep in mind is the translation of the form name means "the Little Idea."  What is the little idea of your lineage?  What is the base of your lineage's understading of Wing Chun.  I know for us, the little idea is structure and space. So I view Sil lin Tao with that in mind.  Something such as the rear press down hands becomes more than just a technique.  it also becomes a way of defining your space behind you and your effective range that can be used without turning.  Keep in mind, this isn't a right or wrong answer, it is just an answer


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## geezer (Oct 3, 2010)

Pay close attention to what Mook and Vajramusti said. The value of the movements in SNT goes far beyond  a specific application of the technique exactly as it appears in the form. SNT is deep. It is about learning body positioning and structure, about training the stance, developing relaxed, springy energy, awareness of centerline, elbow position, and so much more. Learning specific applications is useful, but it's not why we practice the form!

That said, when considering applications, remember that many, perhaps even _most_ double techniques are meant to be applied _singly_. Consider the crossed tan-sau and gaun-sau at the beginning of SNT when you set up your stance. The double movement as we teach it helps find your centerline and achieve the correct position and so on. But in application, _that_ kind of tan-sau is applied singly, typically with a turn and a simultaneous punch. Similarly the double "whisking arms" or "fak sau/ fat-sau" movements (arms snapping out to the sides from a "lan-sau" or "bar-arms position") that you mentioned in the OP would, in application, almost certainly be applied to one side only. The same for the  double rear gum-sau (back pinning palm) in my opinion. I've practiced it both with single and double hands and it works far better _for me_ as a single-handed movement.


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## mook jong man (Oct 3, 2010)

geezer said:


> Pay close attention to what Mook and Vajramusti said. The value of the movements in SNT goes far beyond a specific application of the technique exactly as it appears in the form. SNT is deep. It is about learning body positioning and structure, about training the stance, developing relaxed, springy energy, awareness of centerline, elbow position, and so much more. Learning specific applications is useful, but it's not why we practice the form!
> 
> That said, when considering applications, remember that many, perhaps even _most_ double techniques are meant to be applied _singly_. Consider the crossed tan-sau and gaun-sau at the beginning of SNT when you set up your stance. The double movement as we teach it helps find your centerline and achieve the correct position and so on. But in application, _that_ kind of tan-sau is applied singly, typically with a turn and a simultaneous punch. *Similarly the double "whisking arms" or "fak sau/ fat-sau" movements (arms snapping out to the sides from a "lan-sau" or "bar-arms position") that you mentioned in the OP would, in application, almost certainly be applied to one side only. The same for the double rear gum-sau (back pinning palm) in my opinion. I've practiced it both with single and double hands and it works far better for me as a single-handed movement.*


 
Its true that , you do mostly use it as a single movement , but I have used a double fak sau in multiple attack drills .

I've used it when I have made a mistake in my positioning , instead of keeping them all lined up and in my front sector , somehow I have been caught in the middle between two blokes.

It was too far to get around to the flank so I just ran straight between the two blokes striking both in the neck with the double fak sau , popped out the other side turned around and repositioned to the flank .

Its not textbook stuff but it will get you out of a jam when you have frigged your positioning up.

The single rear gum sau can also be used in a application where you just swing the whole arm back and strike the groin with the palm heel.
Imagine a scenario where you are out walking and someone is following and about to grab you from behind.

As soon as you realise they are about to close in and grab , swing your whole arm back from the shoulder joint and  strike them in the groin with your palm heel.

As you are doing the strike pivot to the rear on the same side you are striking to increase power , turn your head to look back at where you are striking while bringing your Wu Sau right over near your ear to protect your face against any possible punches.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 5, 2010)

You have to think of SLT as a 'blueprint' of your wing chun. It pretty much contains all of the basic structures of your wing chun vocabulary

One of the reasons why SLT is a great tool, is that it is an easy of training all of your movements and energies without having to remember them individually. 
ie if you were on your own in a gym and you wanted to train wing chun moves, you might forget some. SLT incorperates most of them and trains them in a nice easy way

People get too wrapped up in the idea that you have to use the moves EXACTLY how SLT practices them and this is not so. A lot of the time you are doing a double motion (fut sao, lan sao etc), because it is more efficient to train both arms at the same time rather than do one side and then the other 

Just enjoy the form. your Sifu should really be telling you the reasons why you do every move (it would be pretty hard on here)


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## Domino (Oct 15, 2010)

ella_guru said:


> I have some questions about why we do the things in Siu Lim Tau that we do, mostly the "second part"
> 
> The motion where you have your arms crossed and that shoot out to the sides. I'm hard pressed to think this is some sort of attack if you have an opponent to the arms length and side of you....
> 
> ...



Your right, it is offensive and bridging the gap to the on coming attack from the side at the same time, although done with 2 arms, doesn't need to be that way in application.

2 hands shooting behind you is a groin strike, for attack from behind.


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## hpclub1000 (Oct 25, 2010)

Domino said:


> Your right, it is offensive and bridging the gap to the on coming attack from the side at the same time, although done with 2 arms, doesn't need to be that way in application.
> 
> 2 hands shooting behind you is a groin strike, for attack from behind.


 
Unfortunatly thinking about techniques in Sil Lim Tao as specific applications will ultimately limit your Wing Chun.  In Ip Ching liniage Sil lim Tao teaches us the correct position and energy of techniques.  Section 1 develops elbow energy.  Section 2 develops the release of that energy.  So the palm movements to the side, back and forward helps us practice releasing energy in different directions.  Section 3 teaches how to use that energy with the main techniques.  I really dislike the first form being attributed to applications.  To me that is what the Mook Yan Jong is for.

The same for the other 2 empty hand forms.  Learn Chum kui to improve your shifting, turning and stepping.  Bui Tze teaches us explosive power and how to recover the centre line.         

I like to think of the forms as training.  So you ask your self areas need developing.  Is it your positions?  Is it your stepping? Is it your expolsive power?  Depending on which area just look to the forms for help.

just my opinion.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 25, 2010)

hpclub1000 said:


> Unfortunatly thinking about techniques in Sil Lim Tao as specific applications will ultimately limit your Wing Chun. In Ip Ching liniage Sil lim Tao teaches us the correct position and energy of techniques. Section 1 develops elbow energy. Section 2 develops the release of that energy. So the palm movements to the side, back and forward helps us practice releasing energy in different directions. Section 3 teaches how to use that energy with the main techniques. I really dislike the first form being attributed to applications. To me that is what the Mook Yan Jong is for.
> 
> The same for the other 2 empty hand forms. Learn Chum kui to improve your shifting, turning and stepping. Bui Tze teaches us explosive power and how to recover the centre line.
> 
> ...


 
And your opinion and contribution is excellent. Im right wit you on the whole 'forms are more about building concepts than a specific structure' point. 

You usually build the durability and structure of specific techniques (tan sao, bong sao etc) through basic drills. In those drills you learn very quickly that if your tan sao is out of place, it fails

I like to think of the forms as exercise warm ups. You are stretching and exercising the muscles in a very simple way. What you do in the form is not to be taken literally - it is just a way of utilizing the movements of wing chun in an easy to remember pattern

Things like the double lan sao to fut sao (what the original poster was querying) are there just to build that movement and energy. In a practical worl, trying to striek two opponents either side of you is unwise. It is better to get out of the middle of them into a position where you can take them on one at a time.


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## hpclub1000 (Oct 25, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> I like to think of the forms as exercise warm ups. You are stretching and exercising the muscles in a very simple way. What you do in the form is not to be taken literally - it is just a way of utilizing the movements of wing chun in an easy to remember pattern
> 
> Things like the double lan sao to fut sao (what the original poster was querying) are there just to build that movement and energy. In a practical worl, trying to striek two opponents either side of you is unwise. It is better to get out of the middle of them into a position where you can take them on one at a time.


 
Exactly.  And also you dont even need to complete the form.  Its just a sequence at the end of the day to contain the movements in.  Pick a movement then drill in in (correctly) 1000s of times.   You want to get good at Wing Chun then put the milage in?


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 26, 2010)

hpclub1000 said:


> Exactly. And also you dont even need to complete the form. Its just a sequence at the end of the day to contain the movements in. Pick a movement then drill in in (correctly) 1000s of times. You want to get good at Wing Chun then put the milage in?


 
Very true. Its amazing how many practitioners Ive met who insist on completing the form everytime they start it. 

In karate, they do katas in different sequences, mixing the moves up as well as doing them backwards!


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## hpclub1000 (Oct 26, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> Very true. Its amazing how many practitioners Ive met who insist on completing the form everytime they start it.
> 
> In karate, they do katas in different sequences, mixing the moves up as well as doing them backwards!


 
It almost confirms to me that, apart from developing concepts and principals, as a secondary benefit the forms were put into sequence as there was no written documentation  so as to keep the heritage hidden from the unworthy!


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 27, 2010)

hpclub1000 said:


> It almost confirms to me that, apart from developing concepts and principals, as a secondary benefit the forms were put into sequence as there was no written documentation so as to keep the heritage hidden from the unworthy!


 
I like that idea!! I always think of the forms as just an easy way of remembering movements in wing chun

But I never thought how back in the day that maybe it was an easy way of keeping the wing chun techniques a bit secret


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## Ving Tsun (Nov 17, 2010)

I have found SLT to be more of a concept. It helps the body build muscle memory... it reminds you to keep your elbows in and it helps you and your body come to terms with the fact that you must relax and that the elbow is the engine.


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## Fei Ze Min (Nov 19, 2010)

ella_guru said:


> I have some questions about why we do the things in Siu Lim Tau that we do, mostly the "second part"
> 
> The motion where you have your arms crossed and that shoot out to the sides. I'm hard pressed to think this is some sort of attack if you have an opponent to the arms length and side of you....
> 
> ...


 
I like to think that tucked into the form is where we define the centerline in a multi-dimensional aspect.  When we cross the hands in front first down then up, we are defining height.  The two vertical punches following that are defining depth.  When we get to that second part with the double knife hands to the side we are defining width.  These are all the dimensions we as humans exist in (and fight in).


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