# Taoism and the martial arts



## lost_tortoise (Jun 17, 2003)

This topic has surely been breached already, but I am not inclined to search through thread after thread to check, so here goes......

Do you think that Taoism is fully realized is any of the arts?  
I would like to avoid sect wars and any Saso-party-line defining of Taoism, as this is not productive.

Can the concept of Wu Wei be realized in the combat arts?
What of the concept of Pu (the uncarved block)?

If this doesn't stimulate more inquiry and discussion, I am not sure what will.

geoffrey


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jun 17, 2003)

Since the Tao is all-inclusive, it is realized in all arts.  Consult chapter 41 of the Tao Te Ching and substitute "art" for "student".  Actually, "student" works well with your question, too.  
Wu-wei is the path to naturalness, but only gives the appearance of the uncarved block.  No matter how we seek to leave our "carving" behind, it always shows through.  Bruce Lee tried to abandon his classical training in search of martial freedom, but you can still see the echoes of Wing Chun in his moves.  
I'm just a beginner at the art, but T'ai Chi Ch'uan seems to follow the Tao in most respects.  Again, just my opinion.  :asian: 

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


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## MountainSage (Jun 17, 2003)

Tortoise,
love the question, but the answer is very difficult in this type of form.  This type of question is used for doctorial thesis or long conversations over a beer in the local pub.  You have given me an area for personal research.

Mountain Sage


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## Genin Andrew (Jul 30, 2004)

Taoism refers greatly to "flow" a flow of life and harmony.This can be applied to your taijutsu or the physical side to your art.My Shihan holds two classes a week that are for meditation and the discussion of  the tao.
It can be applied but dont try! just see how it feels for you...


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## hedgehogey (Jul 30, 2004)

Add the caveat "I believe" to the beggining of all the following sentences.

The essence of the tao is beyond style, system or technique. Substitute "style" for any system of classification and you have taoism. 

Technique is just another name, convention, etc. Use technique, then abandon technique. When applied to martial arts, that means fight when you train, with real force and hard contact. Wanto learn to outpunch a man trying to hit you back? Just do it. Experience the thing itself, in all it's suchness. 

Don't do something ABOUT combat, just DO combat. To learn to fight, just fight. To learn to draw, draw. To cook you must cook. 

When you try to classify the thing itself, you lose sight of it. When you train with dead patterns that substitute for fighting, you get caught up in a trap of intellectual over-anylization. "The true tao cannot be named." Only when you abandon trying to intellectually parse the thing itself and just _experience_ it can you experience no-mind.

I have experienced no mind a few times and hope to experience it again soon (but I won't TRY to experience it).


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 30, 2004)

lost_tortoise said:
			
		

> This topic has surely been breached already, but I am not inclined to search through thread after thread to check, so here goes......
> 
> Do you think that Taoism is fully realized is any of the arts?



I think that art in general has been and continues to be a catalyst for realization in many of the world religions, including (and especially) "mystical" traditions. 

I think that "Martial" art is a unique kind of art though... because of the connection to "enlightenment" in eastern traditions. 

I think this signifigance is a product of martial art being a Truth tester. Natural Physics. Our relationship to the environment. Life. Which is very natural, and of course anything natural is Taoist. <wink>

This truth tester is the effectiveness of your art in the moment. Natural Response vs. a conditioned Fear Reaction.

The tricky part is how do you really test without running out of partners or being run down yourself....but I personally think it can only be realized by venturing into this territory in ALIVE ways. 

My experience with martial art so far has been that thru seeking to understand experiential events that occur in kinesthetic space (the hear and NOW), a certain truth testing process is experienced and learned. You could relate this truth testing to geometry in that although there are a limited amount of polyhedral shaps in our dimension, those shapes are 'true' in that they can be replicated infinately larger or infinately smaller. 

This has connected "threads of Truth" between the "kinesthetic" realm that is often viewed as subjective and invaid, into the realm of conscious thought.

You could concievably have a conversation with somebody on just a body language level, and not even know it. 

The martial arts develops the kinesthetic and 'feeling' sense of the body. Ever stand next to someone and just not feel 'OK'? That's it! 

Martial Art practiced in an ALIVE environment develops kinesthetic sense, and thus, an increased level of information from this reawakened sense.

Information is information, conscious or subconscious, martial art brings the two together.

Regardless of cultural influence, a profound experience will unfold for the martial artist that connects this new world of information smoothly into everyday existance. Those who don't... end up weird. 



> If this doesn't stimulate more inquiry and discussion, I am not sure what will.
> 
> geoffrey


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 30, 2004)

Man this is good.



			
				hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Add the caveat "I believe" to the beggining of all the following sentences.
> 
> The essence of the tao is beyond style, system or technique. Substitute "style" for any system of classification and you have taoism.
> 
> ...


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## pakua (Aug 3, 2004)

I'm too new to MA to answer- just started in Tai Chi. But I'm wanting to realise more than just the physical aspects of Tai Chi, so I'm reading a few things on Tao, Chi Kung etc at this early stage. I'll get back to you in a year or so!


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 6, 2004)

Refering to the Tao in martial arts,although Ninjukai is not recognised as a legitimate ninja art thats irrelevent coz we're talking about the tao (so lets keep this non-political) In ninjukai shihan places great emphasis on the tao,he holds meditation classes that not only encourage meditation but we sit and discuss the tao and how to "live the tao".

We bring up life situations and natural human responses and emotions such as stress and anger and the like,we deal with the natural response so to speak and then the tao response and how the tao influences the reactions etc.

Taoism isnt the easiest thing to explain and i have full respect to anyone who does a good job of it! But in MA i think it can definately be applied,freedom of the mind when in combat not foccussing on techniques or thinking of how to move but more relying on your "flow" and natural responses attacks.

for more information on the Tao and Taoism try www.taoism.net i hope that site is of some help.Dont try hard to understand it,it comes naturally after a period of time but even then i wouldnt say that you "understand" it.

much respect
-andrew


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