# Nunchaku & Bo Katas



## TigerHeart (Aug 2, 2017)

I'm looking for YouTube videos or DVD to demonstrate nunchaku and Bo Katas.  I can't find the right videos.  Does anyone know?  I'm studying Shotokan Karate.


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## DaveB (Aug 3, 2017)

Shotokan as a rule has no bo kata though I think Kanazawa may have added some to his group. 

Try looking for sho Shi no kun, I remember that being some people's starting kata.


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## MI_martialist (Aug 3, 2017)

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DaveB said:


> Shotokan as a rule has no bo kata though I think Kanazawa may have added some to his group.
> 
> Try looking for sho Shi no kun, I remember that being some people's starting kata.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Shotokan as a rule has no bo kata though I think Kanazawa may have added some to his group.
> 
> Try looking for sho Shi no kun, I remember that being some people's starting kata.


 Shi shi no kun is long. Tokamine is for beginners usually.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 3, 2017)

And of course The usual good advice:  if you are trying to learn these via video alone or as the primary method of instruction, you will have a lot of problems and it's better to shelve the idea and wait until you can find a good teacher.  Mimicking the movement is easy, but doing it correctly and well, so that the kata is a good and effective training tool and not just a dance, is very unlikely through video instruction.


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## TigerHeart (Aug 3, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> And of course The usual good advice:  if you are trying to learn these via video alone or as the primary method of instruction, you will have a lot of problems and it's better to shelve the idea and wait until you can find a good teacher.  Mimicking the movement is easy, but doing it correctly and well, so that the kata is a good and effective training tool and not just a dance, is very unlikely through video instruction.



I'm currently in the martial art school.  I just have a hard time remember the moves.  Watching videos are easier way to study.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2017)

tecboy said:


> I'm currently in the martial art school.  I just have a hard time remember the moves.  Watching videos are easier way to study.



Videos are a good supplement when you can get corrections from a qualified instructor in person as well.


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## TigerHeart (Aug 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Videos are a good supplement when you can get corrections from a qualified instructor in person as well.



I do get correction from qualified instructors.  I can't practice at home if I can't remember.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2017)

tecboy said:


> I do get correction from qualified instructors.  I can't practice at home if I can't remember.



Right, I was agreeing with you.


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## MI_martialist (Aug 3, 2017)

I don't know if you are referring to Shushi No Kon Sho or not but this is a standard beginner kata..as can be seen by the name.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Shi shi no kun is long. Tokamine is for beginners usually.


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## pgsmith (Aug 3, 2017)

tecboy said:


> I do get correction from qualified instructors.  I can't practice at home if I can't remember.



  I always tell my students that this is what their notebook is for. If you don't have a notebook, then you need to get one. Spend some time after each class writing notes on what was practiced and correction received. It helps to cement it in your memory as well as giving you something to refer to later. Much better than video in my opinion.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> I don't know if you are referring to Shushi No Kon Sho or not but this is a standard beginner kata..as can be seen by the name.



Forgive me.  I saw 'shi shi' by mistake.  Our system has three bo kata.  Tokamine is the first and simplest.  Then Urashi, then Shi Shi.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 3, 2017)

tecboy said:


> I'm currently in the martial art school.  I just have a hard time remember the moves.  Watching videos are easier way to study.


Thanks for the clarification.  I agree with PGSMITH, a notebook is a valuable tool.  Writing your own notes makes you think about and mentally process the material.

Another option would be to film your instructor doing the segment of the kata that you are working on, as you progress.  Of course this assumes your instructor agrees to it.

One problem with finding a video of someone else doing the kata is that even tho it may be the same kata, there are bound to be differences from one lineage/school to another, in how it is done.  That could cause you some confusion.  So just be aware of that pitfall.


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## TigerHeart (Aug 4, 2017)

Okay, I was not clear in the first time.  Without a good martial art instructor, I'm just wasting my time watching videos, because I would be totally lost and confused.  My instructor recommended me a DVD that I bough at amazon.  It's really good, and I use it as a reference or study guide.  I noticed there are very little differences from what I learned from my instructor and what I saw in DVD.  My instructor is not nit picky if did a little differences, as long as I understand the form.  I like the instructor who explains to me on certain forms and how these relate to history and eastern culture.  For example, as I learned about Bo,  the Bo was used to stear a little boat.  The movement of steering with a Bo can be applied as blocking lower kick and poking someone's else foot.  Of course, a good quailfied instructor is very important.


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## TigerHeart (Oct 4, 2017)

So, why there are small differences in katas in every dojo and video.  Is it because the history?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2017)

TigerHeart said:


> So, why there are small differences in katas in every dojo and video.  Is it because the history?


Could be many reasons.  No two people are exactly alike, so even students of the same teacher will be slightly different, even without trying to be.

It could be that someone deliberately splinters off and makes some changes that he feels are appropriate,for various reasons.

It could be that someone just didn’t learn it well and isn’t very good at it.

And after it is taught for a few generations, those little differences become bigger with every transmission.

This stuff simply changes.  It isn’t not the same as it was generations ago, even when people try to keep it the same.


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## jks9199 (Oct 4, 2017)

There's a story about a particular kata in one style of karate.  At one point in the kata, they would take 3 steps back, then continue the kata.  At some point, the students wondered why they made that move; it didn't seem to serve any purpose or have any explanation.  They asked their teacher -- he didn't know, just "that's how we always did it."  He asked others, and nobody could figure it out.  Finally, they got an opportunity to ask one of the most senior students...  he thought about it... then he realized the answer.  "In the old dojo, if we didn't take those three steps back, we ran into the wall before we finished the kata."

Sometimes, that's the only reason for a change...  it was a practical adjustment and it no longer serve the purpose.  But it's there, now...


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## JR 137 (Oct 5, 2017)

TigerHeart said:


> So, why there are small differences in katas in every dojo and video.  Is it because the history?


Flying Crane and jks9199’s answers are some I was thinking about.  To add...

Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju Ryu) reportedly taught the same kata differently to different students; he altered them somewhat to better fit the individual.  He could do that, as he and/or his teacher developed many of the kata in Goju Ryu.  Earlier students had more variations in kata than the students near the end.  This would account for some variation in Goju Ryu lineages.  

And he didn’t teach every kata to every high ranking student.  In fact, I read the only student he taught the complete kata syllabus to was Meitoku Yagi.  If this is true, the others must have learned the other kata from Yagi and/or someone outside Goju Ryu, causing more variation.

Then compound that with student’s splintering off, starting their own organization, and making changes that they feel better teach the principles and applications of the kata, and you’ve got variations.

Mas Oyama (founder of Kyokushin) studied under Gichin Funakoshi, Funakoshi’s son (Shotokan), Gogen Yamaguchi (Goju Kai), and a Korean student of Miyagi.  He used some kata from Shotokan and Goju when he made the Kyokushin syllabus.  Over the years he altered them to better fit his ideals.  He heavily modified a few of them to better fit his system, namely Gojushiho (which he renamed Sushiho) and Kanku.  He also less heavily (but not subtly) modified Yantsu from Shito Ryu’s Ansan/Yansu.  Shito Ryu’s version is longer with several more turns/direction changes.  To me it seems like shortened it to eliminate some redundancy, but that’s speculation on my part.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2017)

TigerHeart said:


> For example, as I learned about Bo, the Bo was used to stear a little boat. The movement of steering with a Bo can be applied as blocking lower kick and poking someone's else foot.



 Staffs have been used as weapons since time immemorial, I doubt they needed to be invented from a stick to steer a boat. Sounds akin to the flying sidekick being used to kick a man off a horse.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> There's a story about a particular kata in one style of karate.  At one point in the kata, they would take 3 steps back, then continue the kata.  At some point, the students wondered why they made that move; it didn't seem to serve any purpose or have any explanation.  They asked their teacher -- he didn't know, just "that's how we always did it."  He asked others, and nobody could figure it out.  Finally, they got an opportunity to ask one of the most senior students...  he thought about it... then he realized the answer.  "In the old dojo, if we didn't take those three steps back, we ran into the wall before we finished the kata."
> 
> Sometimes, that's the only reason for a change...  it was a practical adjustment and it no longer serve the purpose.  But it's there, now...


My students often do a triple bunny-hop in the middle of one of the kata I teach. Why? To mock their instructor, of course. I frequently start that kata too close to the right wall, and have to bunny-hop (okay, I could step, but it's much more entertaining as a bunny-hop) to my left to finish demonstrating the kata.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Staffs have been used as weapons since time immemorial, I doubt they needed to be invented from a stick to steer a boat. Sounds akin to the flying sidekick being used to kick a man off a horse.


I suspect that would be more accurately said something like, "The movement used with a bo to block a low kick may have been derived from the motion used to steer a boat with a pole." Even then, I question how often the movements were actually derived from those sources, versus that being used as an example to teach people who knew a similar movement.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I suspect that would be more accurately said something like, "The movement used with a bo to block a low kick may have been derived from the motion used to steer a boat with a pole." Even then, I question how often the movements were actually derived from those sources, versus that being used as an example to teach people who knew a similar movement.



As any student from Oxford or Cambridge Universities can tell you one 'punts' a boat with a pole.  One of the joys of Cambridge is sitting in a pub garden next to the river and watching people strand themselves on the pole as they watch the boat continue down the river on it's own.
video on here telling you how to do it, doesn't look like martial arts lol. Punt Hire Cambridge - Scudamore's Punting Cambridge


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## Tarrycat (Oct 5, 2017)

I can do with some advice on this too. I'm using Nunchaku, for the fun of learning the skill, but I've hit myself in the face & in the head quite a few times now... 

I think it's best to learn from an instructor & not from videos, like I do (Nunchaku in particular, not staffs). We don't train with Nunchaku in Ninjutsu, as far as my knowledge extends. It's an amazing tool though. I quite enjoy it at home... I may look like a VERY special person swinging it around like some barbarian, but at least I'm trying. I will look into some one-on-one Nunchaku training later on. 

It used to fascinate me, because I found it rather difficult to work with when I was around 11 or 12 years old...


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## jks9199 (Oct 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I suspect that would be more accurately said something like, "The movement used with a bo to block a low kick may have been derived from the motion used to steer a boat with a pole." Even then, I question how often the movements were actually derived from those sources, versus that being used as an example to teach people who knew a similar movement.


I think that's a key...  many times, movements were likely compared to everyday activities, or maybe even encouraged to practice in their everyday activities...  There are tons of stories of masters teaching students by having them do things that are unrelated to the martial arts, then only after long periods of "sweeping the temple" or "wax on/wax off" were the movements "true" use shown.  They had to come from somewhere, no?

I've always been somewhat skeptical of the whole "weapons were made from farm implements" type stories.  Outside of a staff, and a few obvious special cases (Okinawan boat oar, Chinese horse bench) -- most farm tools are just not real well suited to use as a weapon.  An axe for chopping a tree down is balanced and set up differently from a battle axe...  I could maybe buy the tonfa as a handle from grinding by hand, but I've seen articles about the nunchaku and nobody can find a "rice flail" farming implement that matches.  And sai?  I don't really see how they would be useful as made for weaponry in any sort of farming.  Of course, I could be wrong... but nobody seems to have a good explanation for it as a farm tool.  I think maybe some of those explanations are just stories, maybe to deflect haphazard investigation when "weapons" were seized...  But, that theory of mine and $3 will get you a cup of black coffee at Starbucks.


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## TigerHeart (Oct 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I suspect that would be more accurately said something like, "The movement used with a bo to block a low kick may have been derived from the motion used to steer a boat with a pole." Even then, I question how often the movements were actually derived from those sources, versus that being used as an example to teach people who knew a similar movement.



I could be wrong, and I’m just a beginner.  However, the story does add up how my instructor explained about the bo.  It is just make it easy to remember even though this story could be made up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> I will look into some one-on-one Nunchaku training later on.


Just a note - if you train yourself before going for the 1-1 training, you're likely to develop some bad habits that need correction. If you are enjoying exploring it (except for the head shots, of course), then keep doing it by all means. Just know you're likely to develop habits that will slow down your later learning. It's something I've often accepted about my own explorations - just best to go in with eyes wide open.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> I think that's a key...  many times, movements were likely compared to everyday activities, or maybe even encouraged to practice in their everyday activities...  There are tons of stories of masters teaching students by having them do things that are unrelated to the martial arts, then only after long periods of "sweeping the temple" or "wax on/wax off" were the movements "true" use shown.  They had to come from somewhere, no?
> 
> I've always been somewhat skeptical of the whole "weapons were made from farm implements" type stories.  Outside of a staff, and a few obvious special cases (Okinawan boat oar, Chinese horse bench) -- most farm tools are just not real well suited to use as a weapon.  An axe for chopping a tree down is balanced and set up differently from a battle axe...  I could maybe buy the tonfa as a handle from grinding by hand, but I've seen articles about the nunchaku and nobody can find a "rice flail" farming implement that matches.  And sai?  I don't really see how they would be useful as made for weaponry in any sort of farming.  Of course, I could be wrong... but nobody seems to have a good explanation for it as a farm tool.  I think maybe some of those explanations are just stories, maybe to deflect haphazard investigation when "weapons" were seized...  But, that theory of mine and $3 will get you a cup of black coffee at Starbucks.


Likely some of them started as such, with people either messing around in boredom or grabbing what was on hand in a moment of need. When they started actually training to use them, they likely made versions specifically designed to be weapons (different balance, made to withstand impact, etc.).


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2017)

TigerHeart said:


> I could be wrong, and I’m just a beginner.  However, the story does add up how my instructor explained about the bo.  It is just make it easy to remember even though this story could be made up.


There are lots of origin and historical stories that are apocryphal. So many that it is almost certain nearly every one of us (students and instructors) believes more than one that isn't literally true. Unless one makes too much of them (in this case, perhaps, trying too hard to make it exactly like some motion used by Japanese boatmen), there's little real harm and not much to gain by trying to figure out if they are accurate or not. At worst, most of them just bug some of us.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> At worst, most of them just bug some of us.



It's only annoying when people repeat it as being the total truth which is has to be because 'their instructor told them it was'. As just a story it's fine but it's when people fervently believe these things it's worrying.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just a note - if you train yourself before going for the 1-1 training, you're likely to develop some bad habits that need correction. If you are enjoying exploring it (except for the head shots, of course), then keep doing it by all means. Just know you're likely to develop habits that will slow down your later learning. It's something I've often accepted about my own explorations - just best to go in with eyes wide open.



I 100% understand where you're coming from; that's usually the case with practicing several martial arts systems at once too, isn't it?. I will look into some professional training for the Nunchaku. I don't want to make a fool of myself either . I hope they'll have that sort of training here in SA. I'll google around.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> I 100% understand where you're coming from; that's usually the case with practicing several martial arts systems at once too, isn't it?. I will look into some professional training for the Nunchaku. I don't want to make a fool of myself either . I hope they'll have that sort of training here in SA. I'll google around.


In most schools, weapons training starts well into the curriculum. You may be able to find an instructor who is willing to offer some private lessons to specifically work on that weapon.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In most schools, weapons training starts well into the curriculum. You may be able to find an instructor who is willing to offer some private lessons to specifically work on that weapon.



Oh, I see. I thought I was going to have to resort to private lessons, since I'm already training in an art. Thank you for your input. I value it.


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## JR 137 (Oct 5, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> I think that's a key...  many times, movements were likely compared to everyday activities, or maybe even encouraged to practice in their everyday activities...  There are tons of stories of masters teaching students by having them do things that are unrelated to the martial arts, then only after long periods of "sweeping the temple" or "wax on/wax off" were the movements "true" use shown.  They had to come from somewhere, no?
> 
> I've always been somewhat skeptical of the whole "weapons were made from farm implements" type stories.  Outside of a staff, and a few obvious special cases (Okinawan boat oar, Chinese horse bench) -- most farm tools are just not real well suited to use as a weapon.  An axe for chopping a tree down is balanced and set up differently from a battle axe...  I could maybe buy the tonfa as a handle from grinding by hand, but I've seen articles about the nunchaku and nobody can find a "rice flail" farming implement that matches.  And sai?  I don't really see how they would be useful as made for weaponry in any sort of farming.  Of course, I could be wrong... but nobody seems to have a good explanation for it as a farm tool.  I think maybe some of those explanations are just stories, maybe to deflect haphazard investigation when "weapons" were seized...  But, that theory of mine and $3 will get you a cup of black coffee at Starbucks.


Add the kama and kuwa (Okinawan farming hoe) to the list of actual tools turned weapons IMO.

Most people believe the peasant farmers developed the tools as weapons, but some very credible sources argue it was the MA experts of the time who took said tools and taught them as weapons instead, which seems more plausible to me.  But I guess that part’s another thread entirely.


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