# Tai Chi Troubles?



## Pezzle (Jun 15, 2008)

Though I'm going to ask my Sifu about this tomorrow, I thought I'd post some questions on a public forum for some opinions from different individuals. Some of you on MAP may detect this as a slight cross-post from an injury thread, but this contains a few other questions.

1) My knees hurt, and I'm told they should not in TCC. 

  I'm about 97lbs overweight. I am not sure why my knees could be hurting other than going too low for my higher weight. The only other possible cause could be that I'm overextending my knee in my back leg or my back foot isn't turned to the proper 35-45 degree angle it should be, probably more like 63. I get the feeling this would put bad pressure against the knee and possibly cause injury.

2) How do you improve the belly breathing? Do it every day? I feel like I can't get enough oxygen in, I can only seem to inhale for about 6 seconds - 8 seconds, and it makes it difficult to combine the breathing and the forms together. This could be because I'm so used to chest breathing, my body feels panicked without its expansion? I have no idea:waah:

That's all for now. I'll keep this kicking with any questions or ideas I might dream up.


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## ben (Jun 16, 2008)

1. This could be a number of things. Your Sifu should be able to solve this.

2. Relax. Don't force it. Don't practice every day, Practice constantly. The form is just a tool for learning the body mechanics, principles and energetics of Tai Chi. You can and should practice all of these outside of the form and in your everyday life. 

What are you working on when you do the form? If you're working on breath then doing the form slower than you can breath won't be very productive.

If you cant make the breath match the pace of the form then make the form match the pace of the breath while working on the other. Don't worry about the speed as much as making sure the breath is relaxed and deep and full and connected with the movement. Remember, belly breathing is just he beginning once you start to get comfortable with it try breathing deeper.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jun 16, 2008)

Pezzle said:


> *I'm about 97lbs overweight*. I am not sure why my knees could be hurting other than going too low for my higher weight. ...
> 
> How do you improve the belly breathing? ... I feel like I can't get enough oxygen in ...



Don't get mad, but doesn't that first statement seem to be a likely cause of your problems?

You could have the best teacher and best form in the world and it would still hurt if you're overweight and stressing your joints. 

The same thing goes for breathing. As a man, you'll store excess body fat between the organs in the torso. Meaning that breathing will be labored if you're obese. No breathing pattern will offset this.

Sorry to break it to you and don't kill me for this -- but you should seriously consider loosing weight. It's hard, I know. I struggle with it too. But loosing that fat will improve everything you do.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 16, 2008)

What style of Taijiquan?

Knee issues

In your stance do not let your front knee bend any further than your toes. Also take a higher stance if necessary to strengthen your legs and knees and work your way to lower stances

Breathing, 

If you are a beginner, don't worry about it. Work on your posture and form and the rest will follow.


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## pete (Jun 16, 2008)

first, being overweight is not an excuse for proper alignment, nor a reason for knee stress... although, without proper alignment your additional weight could compound the injury.

work with your instructor on some standing postures, moving within 75% of your range of motion. isolate them, and feel the weight of your body passing through your knees into the ground below your feet.

*your knees are not meant to be weight bearing joints, they are weight transferring joints.*

what you have been told is correct: your knees (or any joints for that matter) should not hurt... joint pain is a sign that something is not right and for you to stop and make adjustments.

if you are doing low postures, stop until you can develop proper alignment in standing postures.  then, when it feels natural, apply that alignment to lower postures, again using the 75% rule to guage range of motion.  

remember its is *flexibility *that allows you to sink down and _*strength*_ that gets you back up.  develop both in balance, respecting your lowest common demominator: if you are more flexible than you are strong, limit the amount you sink to that which you can comfortably rise back up.

forget the scientific precision of percentages/ratios of weight and exact angles of your feet. those are all 'external' factors relative to the room or the floor, where you should be attuning yourself more to 'internal' alignment where you form connections from one body part to another and again limit your range of motion to the lowest common denominator to remain physically balanced.

don't worry about looking like your instructor, who likely has many years of training, or a picture in a book, or videos on you-tube.  develop your posture, alignment, and connections so that you can *feel *them, and work with your instructor to understand the essence of the postures.

finally, why are you counting the seconds of your breathing?  just breath naturally, in through the nose and out through the nose.  don't force your self to take abnormally long or deep breaths, don't hold your breath, and don't force the breath out on exhales. just breath as if the air was a continuous circle.   Belly breathing is dependant on posture, alignment, and the release of tension and stiffness.  Dont worry about breathing techniques until you are comfortable in your physical alignment.

hope this helps a bit...

pete


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## DaPoets (Jun 16, 2008)

Those who are over weight need to pay particular attention to their feet angles and keeping the knees in a natural position that won't put stress on it in a twisting nature.  Take it easy, don't crouch down to low w/ certain moves.  Tai Chi is just a tool as said before, so you really should work w/ your doctor to understand why your knee hurts, how to best loose weight for your type of body and metabolism, and be sure to sleep and eat right.


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## Pezzle (Jun 16, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> Don't get mad, but doesn't that first statement seem to be a likely cause of your problems?
> 
> The same thing goes for breathing. As a man, you'll store excess body fat between the organs in the torso. Meaning that breathing will be labored if you're obese. No breathing pattern will offset this.
> 
> Sorry to break it to you and don't kill me for this -- but you should seriously consider loosing weight. It's hard, I know. I struggle with it too. But loosing that fat will improve everything you do.



Hey no, I'm not mad at all! Two months ago, that was 119 lbs overweight. I've hit a plateau since I started throwing strength circuit training into the mix, but the fat and inches still seem to be gradually dropping (good diet, occasional over eating by a few hundred more but usually on healthier stuff). However, I am a woman.. I'm sure the same pattern applies for labored breathing.



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> What style of Taijiquan?


As of right now we're on Yang style, and will be for a long time.



			
				ben said:
			
		

> What are you working on when you do the form? If you're working on breath then doing the form slower than you can breath won't be very productive.


I'd like to combine the two, but you're right I should attempt to just breathe naturally and get the postures down before focusing on breath. I'd rather do the form slower and concentrate on my alignment and posture (footwork esp)



			
				pete said:
			
		

> work with your instructor on some standing postures, moving within 75% of your range of motion. isolate them, and feel the weight of your body passing through your knees into the ground below your feet.


I will have to try this. I am stronger and far more flexible than when I first started, and I noticed that my quadriceps don't burn as much. Because of this, though, I have subconsciously started to go lower in my stance to get the same burning "reaffirmation" of having the weight in said leg in bow stance when the weight is there all along. The problem with this is that I don't have the strength to lift myself back up or carry my weight through a large step!

What can I say, leave it to me to over analyze things... heh Thanks for all your help so far everyone.


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## kwaichang (Jun 16, 2008)

It wouldn't hurt for you to consult your physician and possibly get an xray of those knees.  Damage can take a while to show up and with the extra weight and now the exercise, that just might be the cause.


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## mograph (Jun 16, 2008)

Adding to what others have written:

1. Regarding the knees, the problem may lie outside of Tai Chi. Do you lock your knees when standing, waiting in line, doing the dishes  ...? You should never lock your knees. Bend your knees just slightly to take the load off your kneecap, then learn how to share the standing load between the pairs of muscles in the leg: quads/hams and shins/calves. Ask sifu if Zhan Zhuang is right for you.

Also, be careful to keep the knee pointing in the same direction as the toes -- no twisting at the joint. But you knew that. However, if your sifu contradicts that alignment idea, make sure the twist happens somewhere other than the knee. It's a hinge. 

Congratulations on the weight loss -- steady as she goes.

2. Regarding the breathing, I think you should change gradually, but if you want to change, do it every day, when driving, waiting, and so on, when you have a moment. A little bit longer each week, maybe. I'm working on breathing more deeply, by elongating my breaths a little more each time, and  thinking of the breaths as "thin". I suppose that air flowing through a narrow pipe might be a useful image. 

But you know, 6-8 seconds inhaling ain't so bad. Take it easy. No rush.


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## Pezzle (Jun 16, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> It wouldn't hurt for you to consult your physician and possibly get an xray of those knees.  Damage can take a while to show up and with the extra weight and now the exercise, that just might be the cause.



Honestly the only reason I've put it off thus far is because COBRA hasn't kicked in for me yet.. :uhohh: Insurance rocks my world up down and sideways.


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## kwaichang (Jun 16, 2008)

Pezzle said:


> Honestly the only reason I've put it off thus far is because COBRA hasn't kicked in for me yet.. :uhohh: Insurance rocks my world up down and sideways.


And when it does, you get to discover all those "old guys" who stamp *denied* when you put a claim in.  I'm all too familiar with their workings.  Hope it does work for you though.:lookie:


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## ggg214 (Jun 16, 2008)

my pesonal experience told me that you may feel hurt on your knees, but the reasons are different. the common understanding is that hurt is caused by wrong posture. many cases belongs to this. in this situation, you should correct your every posture in the forms or stance.
but there is also another situation: it's hurt because your knee strength is not enough to hold your body in the posture. when your practition goes on, the problem will be removed.
and i feel the hurt in two situations above is different. the first one feel like sting hurt in joint, and the latter is ache on the joint place of muscle and arthrosis.


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## kwaichang (Jun 17, 2008)

Indeed ggg214 you are right about the reasons.  However, for this western practioner, I found all my aches diminished when I practiced in Hong Kong and Shanghai.  I think it is the energy of those cities helping my mind to overcome my aches.
&#20320;&#22909;


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## Quotheraving (Jun 17, 2008)

Pezzle said:


> 1) My knees hurt, and I'm told they should not in TCC.



I would recommend taking paying attention to how you take each step, make each step only as long as feels comfortable, take it slowly and see if there is;

a) some wobbling of the knee from side to side while loading it up with weight.
This  means that you aren't moving the weight smoothly to the center of the foot, but rather off to one side  and relying on muscular tension in the leg to correct your balance. As you can imagine this puts quite a lot of strain on the knee joint.

b) That in forward stances the front knee doesn't go beyond an imaginary line traced vertically from your toes.
Obviously this is mechanically dangerous as it tries to push the lower leg past the upper leg, thereby straining the tendons within the knee.

C) That the back leg or supporting leg just rests down on the ground loosely and isn't being forcefully held down while the motion of the upper body causes a twisting force within the leg.
This is often due to poor stance or once again excessive tension in the waist and lower body.

All these can be remedied by relaxing into the correct stance and moving the weight to the center or balance point (bubbling spring) of the foot while stepping.




Pezzle said:


> 2) How do you improve the belly breathing? Do it every day? I feel like I can't get enough oxygen in, I can only seem to inhale for about 6 seconds - 8 seconds, and it makes it difficult to combine the breathing and the forms together. This could be because I'm so used to chest breathing, my body feels panicked without its expansion? I have no idea:waah:



Abdominal breathing is the kind of breathing you did naturally as a child and still do each night as you fall asleep. 
Breathing to the chest is a bad habit caused by trying to puff yourself up to make your chest appear bigger, or from  sucking the belly in... or even by imitating all those crazy adults who breathed like that.
So just stop trying to do it and instead allow yourself to relax until the breath starts to loosen down into the diaphragm on it's own.

Oh and you don't need to make one breath so long, just breathe naturally and at a pace that feels right for you.. later when your breath starts to sink you will find that the breath can be drawn out without any discomfort... but again let it happen naturally, don't contrive it.


T'ai Chi is a Taoist art, it's about returning to the natural and un-contrived and discarding the unnatural and contrived, let that simple philosophy be your guide and you won't go wrong.  


Hope this makes some sense and is of use to you... oh and have fun. 


Kind regards  
Dave


Edit... There's two kinds of pain.. the warm glow of muscles that are working harder than we find comfortable.. this is good, and the sharp pain that signals that you are damaging something, which is definitely not good... i'm assuming you mean the latter.


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## Pezzle (Jun 17, 2008)

It appears as though the assistant instructor and I figured it out. When I was pivoting the front foot, I wasn't fully lifting and pivoting it, it was more of a half-assed pivot, which puts subtle (Sometimes more so than) pressures on the knee. instead of dragging my foot along, i fully picked it up and pivoted on the heel.. instant knee relief during Tai Chi!

That, and I need to not go so low during "Grasp the sparrow's tail" before the push and should just be shifting my weight from leg to leg at the same height. Hehe, habits I never knew I had.

I'm going to keep icing and elevating the knee in case but the pain is much less and doesn't creep up on me during the forms anymore.


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## ggg214 (Jun 17, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Indeed ggg214 you are right about the reasons. However, for this western practioner, I found all my aches diminished when I practiced in Hong Kong and Shanghai. I think it is the energy of those cities helping my mind to overcome my aches.
> &#20320;&#22909;


 
really?^-^
i think you find a right way to process your taiji kung fu!


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## kwaichang (Jun 18, 2008)

Good news indeed.  
Safe training.


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