# What is lacking in the FMA?



## The Game (May 7, 2006)

Not intending any art bashing, but more of an analysis.

Weapons seems to be a large part of the FMA, but, does focusing on weapons early have any negatives?


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## Guro Harold (May 7, 2006)

The Game said:
			
		

> Not intending any art bashing, but more of an analysis.
> 
> Weapons seems to be a large part of the FMA, but, does focusing on weapons early have any negatives?



There is sometime a weakness of thinking that a single blow or strike will stop an opponent or even if the "flow is taught", it is sometimes forgotten that an untrained, drunk, or lucky opponent will do the unexpected which could throw off some counters.

Sometimes its good to train with someone new who will step crossed-footed, or who has a weak/lazy grip, and who has no control to keep you on your toes.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 10, 2006)

I'm not sure I'd call it a weakness...but I've seen a number of videos where the folks demonstrating things will get so involved in making super impressive weaving with their sticks, that they forget to move their feet. They set the range, do their thing, and never move. FMA footwork's usually very fluid from what I've seen of it, and I'm far from an expert (and guilty of the frozen foot issue myself, lol).


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## The Game (May 15, 2006)

ok, now I ask this, out of confusion, not any desire to see a fight break out.

In watching alot of fma video clips, it seems that alot of the techniques are based around thin sticks, with speed being the big thing. Wouldn't something with a little more impact, and a more direct attack be more effective? What is the point of the, for lack of a better way to say it, baton twirling?


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## Mcura (May 15, 2006)

The baton-twirling, in my limited amateur opinion, is more likely a symptom of certain types of training.  I'd read in Dan Inosanto's biography that at one point, an old masted chided him for being "overly Visayan, too much fancy moving" or something like that.

Personally, I think Siniwali is fun, especially with light whippy sticks (the type most commonly seen in most MA supply stores).  But a more practical application would be, say, a single lead pipe picked up from an alley floor.  You're not doing fancy stuff with a heavy metal pipe, you're wailin' away with intent.  And I've yet to see someone do siniwali with two six-foot poles.

The Dog Brothers talk about how they've seen siniwali in some of their earlier matches.  At first, fighters would just do "baton-twirling" and not hit anything, and then merely hold the lead stick as a shield and the rear stick as the hitting tool.  That doesn't mean that they abandoned siniwali as a concept.  Rather, they studied how to make it work functionally.


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## Phadrus00 (May 15, 2006)

The Game said:
			
		

> ok, now I ask this, out of confusion, not any desire to see a fight break out.
> 
> In watching alot of fma video clips, it seems that alot of the techniques are based around thin sticks, with speed being the big thing. Wouldn't something with a little more impact, and a more direct attack be more effective? What is the point of the, for lack of a better way to say it, baton twirling?


 
This is actually a great question and one I get often.  The FMA stick is a conscious decision to use speed over weight allowing a faster, more flexible attack and allows the practicioner to often deliver additional blows.  Remember that the stick is often used in conjuction with the blade so speed is important.  Finally the stick is typically a training ,mechanism to prepare the student for the sword.  Speed is of critical importance with swords as you have such a smaller tolerance for error.

But I digress.  Your real question was whether or not a bigger, heftier stick would deliver more force.  Well it could but you can get the same force out of a lighter stick by moving faster.  Rembere this equation from Physics:

       F = ma

Force (F) is calculated by multiplying the mass (m) by the accleration (a) it is experiencing.  So delivering more force can be achieved by increasing m or increasing a.  It turns out that if you make the stick heavier it is harder to accellerate it (a=F/m).  So lighter means faster.  With some training and a little flexion from the stick you suddenly expereince tremendous force at the end of the weapon (think of a bull-whip for example) .  In the hands of a well-trained FMA the stick experiences very high accelleration which translates into a very high impact AND is very flexible and fast to accomodate changes in strategy or defensive movements.

If you want proof come to the M&G in August and you can hear me whip a stick through the air.  The sharp sound of the air being displaced rapidly is a pretty good indication of the force being delivered.  *grin*

Rob


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## ChineseKempoJerry (May 15, 2006)

FMA being weapons focus kind of goes with the culture. Always have a weapon if you are in a fight. If the other person has a weapon get a bigger or longer weapon always try to have the advantage.

If you do not have a weapon it does not mean that you cannot defend yourself, you just apply the same principles to the empty hand.

I think the problem is that sometimes people get so involved in making it look pretty and focus on the stick that they miss the overall picture. Kali was used during WWII by Fillipino Scouts. Effective, but over time has become watered down. The Dog Brothers help people see the art for what it is - combat!

Why do I care? I am Filipiino.

Best Regards,

Jerry


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## Phadrus00 (May 15, 2006)

Mcura said:
			
		

> The baton-twirling, in my limited amateur opinion, is more likely a symptom of certain types of training. I'd read in Dan Inosanto's biography that at one point, an old masted chided him for being "overly Visayan, too much fancy moving" or something like that.


 
I won't deny that a lot of the twirling is for visual effect and is not very practical.  It really is a good drill though for developing coordination and dexterity and in some cases you can use it in sparring.  I have learnded to switch hands when sparring mid-strike for example which is derived from some of the twirling exercises we do.  But yes, in combat, keeping it simple is the best approach!



			
				Mcura said:
			
		

> Personally, I think Siniwali is fun, especially with light whippy sticks (the type most commonly seen in most MA supply stores). But a more practical application would be, say, a single lead pipe picked up from an alley floor. You're not doing fancy stuff with a heavy metal pipe, you're wailin' away with intent. And I've yet to see someone do siniwali with two six-foot poles.


 
The heavy lead pipe would be devastating when it connects but it is going to be slow and you are not going to be able to change it's direction very easily.  one of the most devatating aspects of the stick is the ability to hit multiple times from different directions very quickly.  It allows you to move around a block or attack with devastating effects.  You won't be able to do that with a lead pipe, you will have to try and smash your way through.

And it's true you won't be able to do siniwalli with two 6 foot poles...  But then again you won't need too!  Siniwalli trains you to work with complex weapons and combinations of weapons, it trains you to think about all the angles of attack.  You can use the 6 count pattern with a six-foot staff if you imagine each of the ends of the staff as the two sticks.  The pattern is the same.



			
				Mcura said:
			
		

> The Dog Brothers talk about how they've seen siniwali in some of their earlier matches. At first, fighters would just do "baton-twirling" and not hit anything, and then merely hold the lead stick as a shield and the rear stick as the hitting tool. That doesn't mean that they abandoned siniwali as a concept. Rather, they studied how to make it work functionally.


 
It's a great point and a truth for all Arts.  You can study the drills but until you apply it in a real combat situation you really will not understand how to use it.  

Regards,

Rob


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## Phadrus00 (May 15, 2006)

Allright,

Now that I have had a chance to pontificate about the speed of the stick, let me share what I think is lacking in the FMA.

One word... Grappling

The FMA is rich in weapons skills, empty hand skills (Silat), flexible weapons and even take-downs.  But because so much of the traditional techniques end with "and then you stab them and move on" they tend to ignore extended ground combat.

I think in today environment you need to have a complete spectrum of skills that allow you to transition effectively to all ranges and especially to the ground where so many modern encounters end up.

I am very fortunate to have an Instructor that is not only very skilled in Doce Pares but also an amazing Grappler as well.  Guro Jason has a very well rounded curriculum where we divide our time between ground-work, boxing/kick-boxing and stick work.

Having great mat skills is sooo important!

Rob


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## Mcura (May 15, 2006)

I won't deny that ground grappling is an important skill to have, especially in this day and age when BJJ is so popular.  Having said that, indigenous filipino grappling skills do exist.  Dumog is the name I've heard described to grabbing/pinching the upper arm, and using that limb to push and pull your opponent about.  Sadly, that's the only application that I'm familiar with.


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## Phadrus00 (May 15, 2006)

Mcura,

You are quite right, dumog in the Filipino Arts covers wristlocks, elbow control, pinching, pressure points, etc. and in some cases it does cover some groundwork, but it tends to be limited to controlling the opponent to deliver a fatal blow.  Don't get me wrong it's awesome stuff, but it does lack some depth on what to do if you are NOT in a dominant position with a blade or stick.  That's where I think having competence in an art like BJJ or sambo or jui-jitsu is so valuable.

Rob


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## Rich Parsons (May 15, 2006)

Phadrus00 said:
			
		

> This is actually a great question and one I get often. The FMA stick is a conscious decision to use speed over weight allowing a faster, more flexible attack and allows the practicioner to often deliver additional blows. Remember that the stick is often used in conjuction with the blade so speed is important. Finally the stick is typically a training ,mechanism to prepare the student for the sword. Speed is of critical importance with swords as you have such a smaller tolerance for error.
> 
> But I digress. Your real question was whether or not a bigger, heftier stick would deliver more force. Well it could but you can get the same force out of a lighter stick by moving faster. Rembere this equation from Physics:
> 
> ...


 

While I agree with your FMA or Force - Mass * Acceleration. 

I have to note that I use larger sticks, not because I want more mass but because I want somethign that fits my hand. It is the natural size for me, so therefore I use it, while most people think of it as being large/think/ or heavy. 

Now I can pick up a smaller stick and go faster but when I do I find that I am using all arm and or a little upper body strength. When I use my timing and the proper stick that feels right, I can generate lots more force by using the M of my body by having it properly behind my strike. 

Just my thoughts on that.

As to the stick in general, it is a generic weapon that allows translations to other blunt weapons and or edged weapons if one has an imagination.


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## Phadrus00 (May 15, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> While I agree with your FMA or Force - Mass * Acceleration.
> 
> I have to note that I use larger sticks, not because I want more mass but because I want somethign that fits my hand. It is the natural size for me, so therefore I use it, while most people think of it as being large/think/ or heavy.


 
Rich,

Glad to see we are in complete agreement on the Laws of Physics!:boing1: 

I too use a stick outside of the normal dimensions.  For me it's a longer stick.  I have very long arms and torso so in order to pull off the Arcos and stick transition movements (we pas behind out back, under our arm, etc.) I need extra length or I end up tearing my shoulder trying to reach the end of the regular stick!  Not as much fun really.

Ya gotta find the stick that feels JUST right!  *grin*

Rob


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## Phadrus00 (May 15, 2006)

Oh SNAP!   I just got the FMA = F - mass -accelleration thing!   Rick that is BRILLIANT!  Can I use that?

Rob (Padawan)


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## Rich Parsons (May 15, 2006)

Phadrus00 said:
			
		

> Oh SNAP!   I just got the FMA = F - mass -accelleration thing!   Rick that is BRILLIANT!  Can I use that?
> 
> Rob (Padawan)




I have been using that for years and given others permission to use as well. 

Please feel free to use it.   :lol: I am glad you enjoyed my comment.


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## Phadrus00 (May 16, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I have been using that for years and given others permission to use as well.
> 
> Please feel free to use it.   :lol: I am glad you enjoyed my comment.


 
Rich,

I am thrilled to have permission!  

I checked out the video from last years Meet and Greet!  Loved your discussion on senstivity and reading the stick as opposed to the checked hand.  Are you going to make it to the M&G this year?

Rob


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## Rich Parsons (May 16, 2006)

Phadrus00 said:
			
		

> Rich,
> 
> I am thrilled to have permission!
> 
> ...



I would like to, I have a work trip the week before and that week. So I might be flying back on the Friday before, or earlier in the week. I cannot commit until later when dates and schedules line up more. 

If I am not off on a work trip I should be there to support Martial talk.


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