# Proper tiltes for Arnis Black Belts



## Darkmoon

What are the proper titles for Modern Arnis? I've called Guro for the last year, and apparently that's not correct for Arnis. It's more correct for Kali, Which I'm not affiliated with.

Does anyone know what titles The Professor used or would use for Black Belts in each degree?


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## arnisador

In Modern Arnis a black belt is a Lakan (male) or Dayan(g) (female). The usual instructor title is Guro (not Guru). This is how the Professor did it when I was around, and how I have always been addressed! Higher titles included Punong Guro, Master of Tapi-Tapi, and Datu, but those were used more rarely.


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## Guro Harold

arnisador said:


> In Modern Arnis a black belt is a Lakan (male) or Dayan(g) (female). The usual instructor title is Guro (not Guru). This is how the Professor did it when I was around, and how I have always been addressed! Higher titles included Punong Guro, Master of Tapi-Tapi, and Datu, but those were used more rarely.


Yeah, the word was used so frequently, that once you heard learned the definition once, you didn't think about it.

There are other titles that are not associated as much in Modern Arnis like:
- Manong
- Maestro
- Tuhon


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## zen_warrior

Modern Arnis uses a ranking system similar to the Dan ranks used in Karate or other Japanese systems. There are some minor variations between organizations as to the exact number of belts. There are 10 or 11 black belt ranks in Modern Arnis , depending on the organization. They are numbered in Filipino:


Isa
Dalawa
Tatlo
Apat
Lima
Anim
Pito
Walo
Siyam
Sampu
Labing-isa (in some organizations)
 Many groups use a "zero-degree" black belt rank as a probationary stage that comes before _Isa_. The actual name of the ranks is gender-specific. For men the rank is referred to as _Lakan_ (Tagalog for male) while for women it is referred to as _Dayang_ (Tagalog for "female").[_citation needed_] Thus, a first degree black belt in Modern Arnis would be referred to as either a _Lakan Isa_ or a _Dayang Isa_, depending on his or her gender. The "zero-degree" rank, if used, is referred to as simply _Lakan_ or _Dayang_. The black belt is traditionally bordered with red; however, some groups use a plain black belt.
 In addition to rank, titles such as Datu, Commissioner, Master of Tapi-Tapi, Senior Master, _Punong Guro_, etc., have occasionally been granted to certain high-ranking individuals. The title _Guro_ is typically given to all _Lakans_ and _Dayangs_.
_
Guro_, the Filipino word for "teacher", a teacher of Filipino martial arts; derived from the Sanskrit word _guru_.


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## Guro Harold

zen_warrior said:


> Modern Arnis uses a ranking system similar to the Dan ranks used in Karate or other Japanese systems. There are some minor variations between organizations as to the exact number of belts. There are 10 or 11 black belt ranks in Modern Arnis , depending on the organization. They are numbered in Filipino:
> 
> 
> Isa
> Dalawa
> Tatlo
> Apat
> Lima
> Anim
> Pito
> Walo
> Siyam
> Sampu
> Labing-isa (in some organizations)
> Many groups use a "zero-degree" black belt rank as a probationary stage that comes before _Isa_. The actual name of the ranks is gender-specific. For men the rank is referred to as _Lakan_ (Tagalog for male) while for women it is referred to as _Dayang_ (Tagalog for "female").[_citation needed_] Thus, a first degree black belt in Modern Arnis would be referred to as either a _Lakan Isa_ or a _Dayang Isa_, depending on his or her gender. The "zero-degree" rank, if used, is referred to as simply _Lakan_ or _Dayang_. The black belt is traditionally bordered with red; however, some groups use a plain black belt.
> In addition to rank, titles such as Datu, Commissioner, Master of Tapi-Tapi, Senior Master, _Punong Guro_, etc., have occasionally been granted to certain high-ranking individuals. The title _Guro_ is typically given to all _Lakans_ and _Dayangs_.
> 
> _Guro_, the Filipino word for "teacher", a teacher of Filipino martial arts; derived from the Sanskrit word _guru_.


 
Wow, nice use of Wikipedia!!!

There have been several MT members who have contributed much effort to write the reference material for MA. It's great to see some of it coming full circle back to MT!


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## Rich Parsons

Guro Harold said:


> Yeah, the word was used so frequently, that once you heard learned the definition once, you didn't think about it.
> 
> There are other titles that are not associated as much in Modern Arnis like:
> - Manong
> - Maestro
> - Tuhon



Harold,

I have heard Manong for those associated with Cebu and the use of Cebuano. 

Maestro is from the Spanish influence.

Tuhon, I know is used with others with Visayan influence such as Negros Occidental and possible others. 

Could you give me an example of people who were referred to by Manong? I am just curious.


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## Guro Harold

Rich Parsons said:


> Harold,
> 
> I have heard Manong for those associated with Cebu and the use of Cebuano.
> 
> Maestro is from the Spanish influence.
> 
> Tuhon, I know is used with others with Visayan influence such as Negros Occidental and possible others.
> 
> Could you give me an example of people who were referred to by Manong? I am just curious.


Hi Rich,

I was giving as example ranks of titles not typically associated with MA.

As far as an example of someone who was given the title of "Manong", again this is outside the context of MA, I can think of Guro Dawud Muhammad, who was given this title by Pamana Tuhon Chris Sayoc.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Manong Muhammad (also a black belt in MA) just after the Professor's passing.

According to the article, "Manong mean Revered Elder of the Sayoc tribe."

Best regards,

Harold


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## Brian R. VanCise

Personally I like Guro and think it is not only appropriate but also not as pretentious as some of the other titles.


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## arnisador

I usually use "Mr." in a formal setting and "Jeff" in an informal setting. Modern Arnis was never an art formalized and ritualized--it was fun! I try to keep the Prof.'s upbeat spirit going when I can.


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## Guro Harold

I like the title Guro as well.

The Professor, it seemed, recognized other people's outside rank, ie, "Sifu Lee".

Also, if I am informed that an individual holds a Doctorate degree, then normally I would address them as such unless otherwise stated by them personally.


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## arnisador

Guro Harold said:


> The Professor, it seemed, recognized other people's outside rank, ie, "Sifu Lee".


 
Yes, he was very respectful of others' titles. I try to do the same too, when I know them! There are more varieties of FMA titles than I can keep up with.



> Also, if I am informed that an individual holds a Doctorate degree, then normally I would address them as such unless otherwise stated by them personally.


The Prof. would use Dr. when referring to me (and "Jeff" when speaking to me) because he knew I have a Ph.D. but to my mind that's unrelated to the martial arts (as opposed to his experience as a physical education prof., which was directly relevant). There are so many fraudulent "doctors" in the martial arts that  almost fear to use the title!


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## Rich Parsons

Guro Harold said:


> Hi Rich,
> 
> I was giving as example ranks of titles not typically associated with MA.
> 
> As far as an example of someone who was given the title of "Manong", again this is outside the context of MA, I can think of Guro Dawud Muhammad, who was given this title by Pamana Tuhon Chris Sayoc.
> 
> I have had the pleasure of meeting Manong Muhammad (also a black belt in MA) just after the Professor's passing.
> 
> According to the article, "Manong mean Revered Elder of the Sayoc tribe."
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Harold





Harold,

Within the little bit of the Filipino Culture I have been exposed too, Manong does mean Revered Elder, usually someone within your family or you are paying respect too. I know it used with those of Cebuano language preference. 

I was just curious. 

Thanks


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## Darkmoon

Thanks for all of your in put. Mejishi The Center for the Physical Arts will benefit from it.

Thank you very much.


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## stickarts

I did hear the Professor use the title Guro from time to time. Good input in previous posts!


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## Brian Johns

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Personally I like Guro and think it is not only appropriate but also not as pretentious as some of the other titles.



My feeling is along the lines of Brian and I agree that the term "guro" is not as pretentious as some of the other titles. Just my two cents.

Regards,
Brian Johns


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## Guro Harold

Hmmm...

To some "Grandmaster", "Senior Master", "Datu", or "Master" could be considered pretentious.

So the question is what are some examples of titles that could be considered pretentious are why?


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## chris arena

In my mind, or what little is left of it, is that the only thing pretentious about rank of any supposed title is the arrogance of some so called "masters". Do they have the respect of thier peers that any well travelled instructor has? Who endorses this rank, What has he done that makes him stand out. If he can't answer any of these questions then who the heck is he and what gives him the right to any title! When he is teaching a class and some yahoo comes in and challenges him. How does he respond? Does he handle the problem and create a new student, does he run away? 

Funny, this scenario has been known to happen. There are people out there that will come into a gym for a "lesson" just to test the instructor. 
 If you are a typical black belt who calls himself some lofty whatever, trust me, your time will come!  Be honest with yourself and your students and you will get the respect you deserve, no more, no less. 

Chris Arena


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## Rich Parsons

chris arena said:


> In my mind, or what little is left of it, is that the only thing pretentious about rank of any supposed title is the arrogance of some so called "masters". Do they have the respect of thier peers that any well travelled instructor has? Who endorses this rank, What has he done that makes him stand out. If he can't answer any of these questions then who the heck is he and what gives him the right to any title! When he is teaching a class and some yahoo comes in and challenges him. How does he respond? Does he handle the problem and create a new student, does he run away?
> 
> Funny, this scenario has been known to happen. There are people out there that will come into a gym for a "lesson" just to test the instructor.
> If you are a typical black belt who calls himself some lofty whatever, trust me, your time will come!  Be honest with yourself and your students and you will get the respect you deserve, no more, no less.
> 
> Chris Arena



Chris,

How do you define a so called Master or would be easier to define a Master as you put it? I am curious.

Respect from their students?
Or respect from other local martial artists instructors and school owners? 
Or respect from other martial artists in your system or organization?
Or respect from a larger community such as having article published?

Is there a minimum number of events or size of events that can also describe respect? 

Or would it depend upon the situation?


What about those that insult other people and other systems and or are rude to those that come to train with them at a seminar or camp? Do these masters who have followers and may not have respect from others outside their immediate group be a master? Even if they have something to offer?


Endorsement of names or organizations is not always enough to verify or easy to verify. 

So, what have they done to stand out? Is this a number of events a I mentioned above? 

Or is it producing recognized other black belts? 

Or is it that they have won "X" number of tournaments or events? 


As to an open challenge, when this occurs you have automatically lost. 

If you hurt the person then they file charges and you go to jail. 

If you do not hurt them and just control them, many will take this as rubbing it in their face and you loose respect. 

For the non open challenge such as it is not done to stop the class, but is done when you are working with them and they just ask questions and wonder. This is good to have questions. But if you do not have an immediate response to their question is it bad? If you take a few minutes to work it out and to look at the situation, is this good or bad? 

I have had students train with me from other FMA's and after a while they ask me what about ...? I say go ahead and try. If they hit me they hit me. But, I also do not know what they are planning I just ask them to try what they want and then I react. Most stay and train. Some have left upset, as they thought I was embarrassing them by just placing my hand on or near their face or light contact to the body. 

In an open challenge, I smiled and explained a lot of the above. I then asked them to wait until after class was over, and then we could lock the doors and everyone would be gone. Just to two of us. And then see what happens, for at that point it would be their word against mine. The single person who did this just stepped up on to the matts. I smiled, and told a student to call 911 and ask for an ambulance as one of was going to need it. They stepped back off the matts and left. 

But I felt like I had lost.


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## Dan Anderson

I like "Your Worship" but I can't get anyone to call me that...not even my own students.  It sounds like a failed cause.  

Sadly yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Darkmoon

Thank you very much for all of your very helpful information. My instructor (Sensi J. Spiro) appreciated it as well. 

Thanks to you all, some confusion has been cleared up at Mejishi concerning Arnis titles. 

Thank you again


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## bobquinn

I feel like the step child. The Professor called me "Bob". When I asked him to give me a quote for my business flier. He said " Bob you just got your quote" " what you say is what I say"!


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Well Harold I find most titles pretentious*.  That goes for ones bestowed upon someone (though then I understand their using it) and also for those one bestowed upon themselves. (I find those well very pretentious)  Myself I go by Brian to all my students and yes I am an instructor so any word in a language will work but since I use English then instructor probably works pretty well.  *Now that is just my opinion* and yes I use some titles on my website under my instructor bio but in person it is always Brian. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I do not go around having people call me anything other than my name.  Though I understand other people doing so and would never be rude to say that they can or should not.  Just that I wish more people would not in my opinion. 

I recognize anyone's title if that is what they wish to be called.

In the end the more outlandish titles that appear with a cool sounding name just continuously waters down the whole title thing.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.


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## arnisador

Darkmoon said:


> My instructor (Sensi J. Spiro) appreciated it as well.



You're fortunate! She's very knowledgeable about both the arts themselves and about practical self-defense.


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## chris arena

I have to completely go along with Mr. VanCise on his statement. His students call him Brian. All kidding aside, how many of us are "masters". Think about it. Yes, we train, but then those of us have to stop training and go make a living. You know, a job. How much time do we actually train compared to some that spend thier whole lives training and learning fighting skills. For the vast majority of us, modern times have changed all of that. Most of us "masters" are part timers. "Hobbyists", probably describe it best. I am not afraid and take no shame in placing myself in that catagory. Yes, a black belt signifies that we know the "basics" of the system and that's about it. Have we spent our lives like "Tatang" Illistrimo and played for real and then live long enough to tell about it? Thats a master! 
In todays busy world we could probably call those who have motivated many, built a loyal following, put out tapes, books over the length of time a master as well soley by his hard work and success in growing the art, not to mention the skills he built along the way due to his efforts!

How do I define a master? Hell, I don't know. But he has got to be a bit more qualified than some of I see giving themselves the title. Look in the yellow pages in any USA city. The title has become overused and abused. Why is it that most traditional MA schools can only exists as a glorified baby sitters. Has the misinterpretation of martial skills been deminished to to such a pitiful level, especially when the school owner has given himself such B.S title. Lack of respect by the general public, Hollywood and paper tiger masters have done a lot to turn off most adults to the arts. Hopefully the emergence of MMA and non-traditional arts such as ours can turn it around. That is, if we don't abuse it or lower our standards.

Now that I've said it, I think that I will jump on the bandwagon and although admittedly NOT a master. I will personally be more than happy to award those who have masterly ambitions but no time to honestly train for the many years required a title of : "Master in Training".
No belts! But I was thinking along the lines of a high collar, black cape complete with handholds so the master, when running could have the cape fly beautifully behind him. In this way, the "Master in Training" would strike a stunning figure for all those to admire!

Sounds silly, but in light of the passing of many legitimate MASTERS lately, a little levity is well deserved and needed. And those who are disrespecting the title need to honestly take a look.

Chris A


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## bobquinn

I agree with all of you, the only thing that I do demand is that my young students do not call me by my first name. I'm still the big person. I got the handle sifu a few years back and really wish it didn't stick. Mr.Quinn to under belts and Bob to others. My Mom and my wife are the only ones to call me Robert. As far as masters, yea we deserve to be called something as long as it is positive. It all comes down to being on the mat. You guys have kept your feet on the ground. Hope we can hit sticks some time.

Bob Quinn


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## Rich Parsons

I occasionally visit other clubs. I know some of the instructors or school owners. I ask for them almost always by their first name or First followed by Last name if I do not see them directly. 

This is what I have a concern about, almost always the colored belts will immediately "correct" me with their tile and last name. 

I have found this to also occurs with lower ranked belt belts and the correction is from mild amusement of correcting someone who "obviously" does not know, to those who are upset that some form of insult has occurred. 

The issue is that I have either drank beers or sent potential students their way for people looking for a specific art. So, I know them as friends or as business associates as well as through martial arts. 

I smile and just move on with my question of the where about of the person I am looking for. 

So, while people may be humble they may be teaching the wrong lesson through their actions. 

As to minors, I agree they should use proper forms of address of Mr(s) Last name. For those of my friends, I support the use of Uncle Rich as they are closer to me then just strangers, but proper form of address is something that can be taught. But, even when they slip and they always do, I still answer them. Children make mistakes.


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## bobquinn

Rich I totally agree with you. Do you or others think it is an ago trip when instructors go on a power trip and get wrapped up in self gratification? Just an overview.
Bob Quinn

OH Yea any time you want to visit us down here,let me know and it will happen.


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## DragonMind

Dan Anderson said:


> I like "Your Worship" but I can't get anyone to call me that...not even my own students.  It sounds like a failed cause.
> 
> Sadly yours,
> Dan Anderson


Marie said that title was reserved for her and the Other Wives Who Tolerate Martial Artists...


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## Brian R. VanCise

DragonMind said:


> Marie said that title was reserved for her and the Other Wives Who Tolerate Martial Artists...



Yes that is what my wife would say as well. :rofl:


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## Dan Anderson

Thanks, Barry, for letting my secret out.

Dan


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## DragonMind

Dan Anderson said:


> Thanks, Barry, for letting my secret out.
> 
> Dan


You know I live with the Queen of Care and Feeding. BLUE SALUTE!


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## bobquinn

I would like to announce my newest title and promotion.

I have been elevated to ROTU.


Bob Quinn


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## DragonMind

Bob,

You know if you don't define that acronym some less benevolent sorts will define it for you...


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## bobquinn

Thank you so much. My daughter gave me that handle and out of the mouths of babes.

Ruler Of The Universe.

Just reminds me of the saying 
To the world you are one, to one you are the world!

I do thank you, as it could have been taken in the wrong direction.

Bob Quinn


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## chris arena

Bob!

I'll get started on your cape right away!

Do you want the "ROTU" in bright red Gothic print on the back! or a more subtle but stated longhand on the collar?

I would recommend a high collar, at least 1 inch above the ear and a gold braid tie! (No mamby pamby collarless capes here!) Especially for such a title!

Chris A
Perverted purveyor of pugilistic phashon


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## bobquinn

Thank you Chris and I am looking for a good side kick.


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## chris arena

Bob:

On another note.

In 2000, I was in Atlanta on a business training trip and was able to attend Remy's seminar that, luckily for me, was scheduled over the same weekend that I was held over. Did you attend that particular seminar?

As I was from the west coast, we were a little behind the times in regards to the Tapi-Tapi that the prof. was teaching. That seminar was my first exposure to it.  At the time, it seemed like rocket science.

regards,
Chris A


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## bobquinn

Chris,
If the professor did a seminar in 2000 then it was at my school. I stopped hosting that year as my father was suffering from brain cancer and life was put on hold. Do you remember the location? Stone Mountain Ga?


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## chris arena

That's the one! I remember that Tuhon Ray Dionaldo was there as well. In fact, I spent most of my time during that seminar working with Ray and his training partner, as he was interested in my instructor, Kelly S Worden and we spent much of the time doing knife work and stick related empty hand flow.

I was dressed in the typical NSI training garb, torn black gi bottoms and an equally ratty NSI Water & Steel tank top. (Datu's gym at the time was a mouthpiece and no cup slam and jam). As Datu did not, and still doesn't get that far into Tapi-Tapi as most Modern Arnis players do today. His Modern Arnis style mixes a lot ot Seattle Pre JKD modified wing chun into the mix, plus Sibat Staff and a bunch of blade work. In fact, Datu Worden training was closer to Dionaldo type training. So if you can remember a really ratty looking stranger, that would probably have been me!

However, I did get a taste of Tapi-Tapi from the Professor. Then again the following week when he travelled to Seattle for the next seminar in greater detail. Since then, I have gone though the Tapi-Tapi program from all of his tapes. Then also with his son, Remy Jr. for 3 more years until we had some serious disagreements in regards to his refusal to honor Kelly's ranked students, go over Datu's head and give glad hand belt promotions, with no testing. (I publicly turned down a MARPIO 4th degree and elected to stay a lakan Isa). ( I hate B.S.). 

Looking back, I remember that Prof. Presas stated during the break that he wasn't feeling well and had been having migranes. I spent most of the lunch hour in conversation with him. He asked me to help him take his T-Shirts and some tapes with me on my flight home for the Seattle Seminar. Were these migranes a sign of his tumor that showed up a year or so later? Makes you think a bit!

Chris A


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## bobquinn

You run with good people! Professor didn't put people in there place when he was with us and now, well look around the picture is clear. Go with the flow man!


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## Guro Harold

Wow, I was definitely at Bob's Atlanta 2000 August Camp (Tested for Lakan then) in Stone Mountain.

I remember Datu/GM Hartman being there (he taught forms), Jeff Delaney, and Chuck Gauss.

Bob's 1999 seminar was in Tucker, Ga at a church's facility.

Those were great times Bob!


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Guro Harold said:


> I remember Datu/GM Hartman being there (he taught forms)


And parts of my EDT and Mano y Daga programs. It was a good camp. Although I don't remember Ray being there. I did see him at the Orlando camp.


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## Guro Harold

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> Although I don't remember Ray being there. I did see him at the Orlando camp.


Yeah, I don't remember him being there either. As you said, he was definitely at the Orlando camp and was at the Big Three in Jacksonville, Fl (I wish I could have made that one).


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## chris arena

The seminar that I attended in Atlanta was not a camp. It was just a Prof. Presas Seminar. I believe that it was in 2000. but maybe it was 1999. I do remember that it was very close to Stone Mountain, but was in late spring or early summer if I remember correctly.

Anyway, it was a lot of fun and great people. Southern hospitality was alive and well.

Chris Arena


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## bobquinn

I've some pictures from it, I'll get someone to help me get them in the computer,I can't find the place that pictures are to be put into. 

Bob Quinn


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## chris arena

If you can find the photos, could you e-mail me copies?

Chris A


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## bobquinn

I'll send them over,Chris I confess, I don't know much about computting!


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## Guro Harold

Guro Harold said:


> Hi Rich,
> 
> I was giving as example ranks of titles not typically associated with MA.
> 
> As far as an example of someone who was given the title of "Manong", again this is outside the context of MA, I can think of Guro Dawud Muhammad, who was given this title by Pamana Tuhon Chris Sayoc.
> 
> I have had the pleasure of meeting Manong Muhammad (also a black belt in MA) just after the Professor's passing.
> 
> According to the article, "Manong mean Revered Elder of the Sayoc tribe."
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Harold




Tuhon Ray is now officially designating the rank of Certified Instructor as "Manong" in FCS-Kali.

Manong Harold
Lakan Guro
Southeastern US Director
FCS-Kali


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