# Muay Thai actually works!  I am humbled



## Freestyler777 (Aug 23, 2007)

I just saw UFC 64 on DVD, and I was amazed at this tall, skinny brazilian guy who won using pure muay thai technique, not going to the ground at all, and beating one mean opponent.  

I used to think Muay Thai was not as good as regular boxing, but now I realize that Richard Bustillo was right all along- Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, and Jiu-jitsu are the four aspects of unarmed combat.  

I was foolish to underestimate muay thai.


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## Boomer (Aug 24, 2007)

It happens.  
My dad always said that the 2 worst mistakes a fighter can make are to underestimate himself (lack self confidence), and to underestimate his opponent.

I made the mistake before of assuming I was going to whoop this guy who came out to the ring in "BCG's", Army standard issue eye glasses.  He looked like a serious dork who sat at home playing dungeons and dragons.  I wasted a whole round because of my overconfidence.


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## meth18au (Aug 24, 2007)

So Muay Thai now only works because of a victory in the UFC?  I'm pretty sure it's effectiveness was established well before that, in the battlefields of SE Asia.  And as a brutal and unforgiving ringsport in Thailand all these years.

I think underestimating any art, or any fighter, as Boomer has just stated, would definitely be the mark of a fool....

Peace


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 24, 2007)

I thought kicking doesn't work, or that it only works late in the fight when the other dude is tired.  I know the MMA guys kick here and there, but this guy Silva was able to keep it standing the whole time, dominate in the neck clinch, and knee kick his way to victory.  

And did you see the promo video for UFC74?  Gonzaga knocked out the best striker with one high kick to the head.  Crazy!

Muay Thai is really a fantastic martial art.


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## oddball (Aug 24, 2007)

Anderson or Wanderlei? I think those are the two Silvas - and I think both are supposed to be good at BJJ.


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## Danny T (Aug 24, 2007)

Yes, training in Muay Thai can be very helpful in a fight however, so can training in any number of different martial systems. Something that tends to irk me a bit; how does one know by looking at a fighter kick that the fighter is using Muay Thai or another training system just by the kick? There are many systems which train a specific way to deliver their kick and the style is evident. There also are many systems utilizing a roundhouse type kick striking with the shin. Just because someone kicks with the shin and uses thai style kick pads to train with doesn't mean they are training Muay Thai. There is much more to a MuayThai system fighters style than that. The stance, the placement of the feet, the weight distribution, the usage of the hip, shoulder, and ball of the foot. I was watching a pankration fight recently and the fighters were using kick techniques exactly like some tkd kicks I learned many years ago. Both fighters also use shin kicks and shin blocks very similar to Muay Thai leg blocks however what they were doing was pure pankration. The commentators even commented that they were doing thai kicks and blocks... Huh!!? Pankration is a Greek fight art from the time of antiquity long before Muay Thai came about. 

My point is just because someone takes an opponent to the ground and mounts and submits him doesnt mean it is BJJ. Just because an opponent is kicked with the shin in a roundhouse kick doesnt mean it is Muay Thai, if two fighters throw jab type punches, or jab/cross punches does that mean they are boxers? I could have some of my students from our Pekiti-Tirsia Kali class do some roundhouse kicks from Pekiti and unless you knew they were not trained in Muay Thai you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. (There are a number to things which differentiate the two kicks but unless you know them you would not be able to tell them apart.)

What works is you getting on the training area and training realistically against an opponent who is realistically training against you in whatever environment you will be fighting in. It doesnt matter what training system you use or what you call it, the training needs to be as realistic as possible yet safe for all involved.

Danny T


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 25, 2007)

Thank you Danny, you're not only very impartial, you happen to be a good writer!

I'm not sure which silva it was.  It may be Anderson. It was Silva vs Franklin.  Silva is a tall, thin black man from Brazil.  I'm not sure what his first name is, and i am too lazy to go watch the dvd again to find out.  

Anyway, he totally dominated in the neck clinch, didn't go to the ground, and kneed and kicked his way to victory.  I was impressed, to put it mildly.

What I like about MMA is that it pits guys of different abilities against each other, and everyone is unique.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Aug 25, 2007)

Danny is saying some things that need to be said.



Danny T said:


> My point is just because someone takes an opponent to the ground and mounts and submits him doesn&#8217;t mean it is BJJ.




Yes, it could be Wrestling (freestyle, greco roman, & catch as catch can all have submissions), it could be Sambo, it could be Judo (much of BJJ's tecnical repetoire was derived from Judo), it could be Jujutsu (the old school samurai variety), it could be Escrima, or Chin Na....




Danny T said:


> Just because an opponent is kicked with the shin in a roundhouse kick doesn&#8217;t mean it is Muay Thai,




Like you mentione before, TKD & Pancration - Okinawan Karate uses this technique as does Sambo.  I've also seen Savate fighters do it too.




Danny T said:


> if two fighters throw jab type punches, or jab/cross punches does that mean they are boxers?


 
Thugs on the street without any training use this one.  Muy Thai uses this.  Pancration.  Kickboxing. JKD.

The list goes on.

Combat happens at all kinds of ranges and all kinds of technologies are both necessary and useful.  If you're not prepared or are less prepared for a certain range then you are vunerable at that range.  Upon realizing this, a smart warrior will borrow or steal the appropriate technology to do so if need be.  Some technologies are obvious and discovered with no need to borrow or steal from another culture.  Multiple cultures use fists, and various parts of the arms legs and feet to strike.  Multiple cultures have their own methods of grappling that involves throws, pins, chokes, & locks.  The human body can only move and interact with another human body in a finite number of ways there are bound to be overlaps.

MMA is great entertainment and benefits the Martial Arts by popularizing the arts which in some way keeps the arts alive and moves it further.  But... the result of prepping the arts for mass consumption has resulted in a dumbing down of the arts.
All submissions = BJJ.
Kicks, knees, & elbows = Muay Thai.
Throws = Judo.
Punching = Boxing.
Takedowns = Wrestling.

_Don Flatt


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## Independent_TKD (Aug 25, 2007)

I started training at a muay thai gym not too long ago. I find it to be very effective and very tough. I have a long background in TKD and find muay thai to be a great compliment. 

For me, the kicking is not incredibly difficult to learn. The hand skills (offensive and defenseive), knees, and clinching are very effective.


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 25, 2007)

I think that Muay Thai guys have great conditioning, not just their cardio but their physical ability to withstand blows.  Muay Thai is probably better than western boxing for SD, although boxing is no slouch.  Muay Thai incorporates more elements.


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## 009abz (Aug 25, 2007)

just putting outting this out their but what do most people think would win a  tkd fighter or a muay thai fighter even though i always say u would never know for their would always be some tkd or muay thai fighter out their traning harder than the other this even goes for all martial arts.


to fight u must be strong to win you must be smart


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## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2007)

009abz said:


> just putting outting this out their but what do most people think would win a tkd fighter or a muay thai fighter even though i always say u would never know for their would always be some tkd or muay thai fighter out their traning harder than the other this even goes for all martial arts.
> 
> 
> to fight u must be strong to win you must be smart


 
style has nothing to do with winning a fight. It is up to the person fighting if they are properly trained for a fight. Your last quote makes no since, smart people loose all the time because some over strong guy get a lucky punch in and it is over in a second.

These type of argument never have a good ended people always believe there style is always best.


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## oddball (Aug 26, 2007)

Yup. Anderson is a tall skinny black brazilian. According to Wiki (so take that as you will), he is a black belt in bjj also.

edit: bit of sidetrack - with the 4 aspects of MMA, aren't those all the sport martial arts? Maybe they are most prominent in mma becuase the transition was not that great. that's why the other arts are not as common, they weren't interested in the transition?


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 26, 2007)

I don't think Richard Bustillo thinks that those 4 MA (Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, and BJJ) are the ONLY effective martial arts, they are just the sports that focus on particular attributes that could be used by any martial artist.  So it's kind of like generic terms.  A guy who does Muay Thai and Wrestling might have a similar approach as a guy who does TKD and Sombo.  It's essentially kick, punch, throw, submit. The names of the different sports/styles are just names.

That being said, I've done some research on muay thai itself, and they are very serious about conditioning and competition.  It's not a pleasant sport.


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## Odin (Aug 29, 2007)

you only noticed Muay thai works in MMA from watching Anderson Silva at ufc 64?????

wow.....Do some research...there have been thai boxers in MMA since the beginning.

And as much as a lot of fighters now a days have come from different martial backgrounds at least 90% of them have a Muay thai coach in their gyms.


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 30, 2007)

I've been watching on youtube Bas Rutten from the early days and Yves from more recent stuff.  Amazing!  My boxing coach told me that muay thai is not as good as boxing, but i guess he underestimated muay thai!  Bas Rutten was knocking people out with hands and legs, and Yves was kneeing people in the head when they shot in on him.  I am going to look for more MMA that ended with kicks and knees on youtube.


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## oddball (Aug 31, 2007)

To be fair, I think I heard Bas give more credit to Kyokushin than to Muay Thai for striking skills.


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## Danny T (Aug 31, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> I've been watching on youtube Bas Rutten from the early days and Yves from more recent stuff. Amazing! My boxing coach told me that muay thai is not as good as boxing, but i guess he underestimated muay thai! Bas Rutten was knocking people out with hands and legs, and Yves was kneeing people in the head when they shot in on him. I am going to look for more MMA that ended with kicks and knees on youtube.


 
As to Muay Thai punches not being as good as boxing I would agree if one were specifically trained in traditional Muay Thai . The positioning of the body and weight distribution is different in MT than boxing therefore there isn't as much weight transfer behind the punches. 
Why?
In Boxing one only needs to be concerned with the opponent's hands. In MT we use hands, elbows, knees, kicks, clinch (standing grappling), takedowns. In boxing the major weapon is the hands, in MT it is the knees and elbows. The punches are utilized to setup the usage of the other weapons. If one transfers their weight onto the front foot as in boxing for the power the weight is forward and the front knee can't be utilized. So the weight is maintained over the both feet and the hip is used to transfer the center of gravity from foot to foot and not the upper body. Makes for powerful elbows, knees, and kicks but the punch power is reduced compared to boxing punches.

Danny T


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 31, 2007)

Once again, Danny, you are a smart man.


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