# Diffrent punches



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

(excuse title i always suck at these)

Making this thread to get a objective comparison of some different punches out there, i will lay out the ones i know about and what i think they do and what i think their pros and cons are.  This is also my first post here so haza.  I am also not of much martial arts experience. 

Ok so all these basically have the same or similar mechanics of how to do the punch but its a different part of the hand you hit with.


*Horizontal Straight Punch*
So this is the one most people learn and i have learnt how to do it with the few styles i have done.  Its basically the same mechanics wise, but you just strike with the first two knuckles and put more emphasis on the rotation of the arm.fist to generate power alongside the hips.
The only complaint i can think for this one is, the twisting motion is important for its power and maybe its more dangerous for your wrists/fists.   But it seems to work for the most part.
*

Vertical Straight Punch*
As opposed to the horizontal straight punch, you put less or no emphasis on rotating your fist and arm for power generation, exactly the same without the rotation.*   i have had this one cited to appearing in bare knuckle boxing and being "anatomically stronger" than the horizontal one because of bone alignment.  For the most part i believe you aim with either your top two knuckles, bottom three or all of them.   I have not been taught to do  this one however i have grown into a  habit of doing them when play fighting and thus growing out of using the other punch stated above.    This one also seems to work


*  *Three knuckle punching*
So technically under this one, i have not actually been taught how to do this, but do you aim with your second knuckle to hit with the bottom 3 or do you aim with your entire fist?   I was trying to figure it out on a bag and bottom 3 knuckles seems to make the entire fist hit the target.  What would be the difference if any to a normal vertical punch?
*
Reverse Punch*
So another one i have not actually learnt how to do, but since taekwondo does punching from the belt its basically a punch palm up from the belt.  This one i found in "self defence for gentlemen and ladies" a treatise for bare knuckle self defence.    This is the type of punch he details the most i believe.   Seems to work fine, i have accidentally done it while punching a heave bag before, seems simple enough to do.      You aim with your entire fist this time, how ever you can only reliable hit the solar plexus and face, at least thats whats recommended in the treatise.    It exists in kung fu and karate last i checked as well as probably a few bare knuckle boxing treatises.
(edit): This punch also seems like basically the punch you do in a uppercut.  this was also popular for the long boxing stances which used to be done.

(edit)*Hammer Fist*
I feel like this needs a mention as it can be done easily from a closed fist and is generally considered a good strike which limits the amount of injury you can do to your hands. I again haven't been taught how to do this but, its basically striking with the  bottom of your closed fist fist.

(edit)*Backfist*

Another strike i should mention, i don't know the details of this or how well it works past you just hit someone in soft areas with the back of your closed fist, just believe it needs a mention. This one is a old bare knuckle boxing one mainly, i think anyway.  It seems to work all right if you clip someone in the face with it, but im pretty sure it can damage your hand if you hit something too hard. 


Ok, i know about hooks and uppercuts etc, but i dont actually know how to do them safely and opted to avoid doing them on a heavy bag due to them putting your fist at compromised positions.   For the most part, hooks seem to put your hand in a bad position without gloves. They work, but its a risk to benefit question.

Opinions as it stands?   I personally like the vertical punching as i have conditioned myself to use it when i play and use the heavy bag despite not being taught how to do it.  Apologies if this is a little jumbled.


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

The important thing with any punch is that your wrist is straight.  This applies to any punch regardless of what part of the hand you strike with, and what motion you make.  If your wrist is straight and you are twisting (as in the horizontal punch) there is no more risk to your wrist than in a punch without the twist.  If your wrist is straight as you swing in an arc (with a hook or uppercut motion) then there is no more risk to your wrist than in a straight punch.  Uppercuts will be impossible on a heavy bag.

If these punches were not safe to use, they wouldn't be staples in many, many fighting systems.

Try not to take this the wrong way, but your knowledge of the various punches seems rather limited, both in scope (how many punches there are) and in terms of how individual punches work.  This is something that can easily be rectified with instruction and experience, and is going to be hard to communicate via text over the internet.  I am not trying to insult you, but rather suggest strongly that you take martial arts classes and learn these properly from an instructor, as they will be much better able to help you.


Horizontal Punch vs. Reverse Punch - what you describe as a "Horizontal Straight Punch" sounds like a reverse punch.  What you describe as a reverse punch as "punching with the whole fist" doesn't make sense.  Drop the name "Horizontal Straight Punch" and call it a reverse punch.
Three Knuckle Punching is basically what happens when you aim a vertical punch for the face while keeping your wrist straight.  
You are also leaving out a lot of punches that you can learn if you go to a class.  For example:

Jab, and various versions of the jab (some people have a vertical jab, horizontal jab, or more of a backfist)
You mentioned Backfist, but there's different ways of doing backfists.  There's outward backfists to the temple, and forward backfists to the nose. 
You mentioned Hammerfist, which can be a sideways motion or a downward motion.
There's the gut punch or underpunch, which is done with the fist pointing up, at lower targets like the groin or solar plexus
Hooks and uppercuts, which you glossed over due to lack of training
Then you get into open hand-strikes and elbow strikes
I'm going to leave out the exotic fist punches
Right now, you sound like someone who wants to learn to punch, and do so safely.  This is good.

However, you want to do this on your own without the oversight of someone who knows what they are doing.  This is not good.

Take some classes, you will learn a lot more there than you do here.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> If these punches were not safe to use, they wouldn't be staples in many, many fighting systems.



By that i meant you are less likely to damage your wrist or something by doing it.  Its negligible for the most part so we agree on that.   More or less what works for you/the situation.



skribs said:


> Horizontal Punch vs. Reverse Punch - what you describe as a "Horizontal Straight Punch" sounds like a reverse



From what i understood a reverse to be there is no rotational mechanism, how ever this could just be the one from the treatise i mainly base a reverse punch from rather than a Karate one per say.   Horizontal from the belt in my perspective would be whats done in the TKD 4 directional punching as a example i know.   Video of what i mean when i say reverse punch:







skribs said:


> Jab, and various versions of the jab (some people have a vertical jab, horizontal jab, or more of a backfist)


Fair enough, mine are more just a lead hand what ever strike. 



skribs said:


> Right now, you sound like someone who wants to learn to punch, and do so safely. This is good.





skribs said:


> Take some classes, you will learn a lot more there than you do here.



I can a horizontal one pretty well, due to basically everywhere doing them and i am looking into classes to learn the other ones, thanks for reply.

Also glancing mention, i left out open hands due to it possibly mis leading due to the title.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> From what i understood a reverse to be there is no rotational mechanism



You said you'd done 'some' TKD...

I have to assume, from the statement I quoted, that it was very little TKD you've done because that's in no way the definition of 'reverse punch'.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> You said you'd done 'some' TKD...
> 
> I have to assume, from the statement I quoted, that it was very little TKD you've done because that's in no way the definition of 'reverse punch'.



Fair enough, see the video i posted, thats what i meant when i used it.  Googling it now, it likes like the one they use from the belt specifically, so it basically is a horizontal punch. excuse the terminology difference, is the better word for the one i am using a upside down punch then?


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Fair enough, see the video i posted, thats what i meant when i used it.  Googling it now, it likes like the one they use from the belt specifically, so it basically is a horizontal punch. excuse the terminology difference, is the better word for the one i am using a upside down punch then?



Upset punch is one performed with the palm up.


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## JR 137 (Jul 11, 2018)

Where I come from, reverse punch simply means a punch from your back foot side.  Or perhaps a better way of saying it - when in your stance, if your right foot is back, a right hand punch is a reverse punch.  If your left foot is back, a left punch is a reverse punch.

And “upside down” punch, where your palm is up when you make contact is an “inverted fist strike” aka shita tsuki in Japanese.


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## JR 137 (Jul 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> The important thing with any punch is that your wrist is straight.  This applies to any punch regardless of what part of the hand you strike with, and what motion you make.  If your wrist is straight and you are twisting (as in the horizontal punch) there is no more risk to your wrist than in a punch without the twist.  If your wrist is straight as you swing in an arc (with a hook or uppercut motion) then there is no more risk to your wrist than in a straight punch.  Uppercuts will be impossible on a heavy bag.
> 
> If these punches were not safe to use, they wouldn't be staples in many, many fighting systems.
> 
> ...


In an inverted fist strike, your wrist isn’t always straight.  It’s typically bent upwards a bit right after contact.  Typical close range Kyokushin punch to the abdomen right under the ribs.  That wrist bend really digs in and just flat out sucks to get hit with. #41 is throwing it nicely here.


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## wab25 (Jul 11, 2018)

First off, I would highly recommend skribs advice to go take some classes. 

Lots of people like to compare the different arts and the way they do things. In this case, the power of their punches. I have read a number of scientific studies that attempt to quantify the effectiveness between the different styles. These studies did in fact find differences in power and speed and accuracy between different arts. But, I think this kind of thinking misses the boat entirely. 

Lets assume the style A hits with the most power, C with the least amount of power and B is right in between. Just looking at this, we should all start studying style A, because no one wants to learn the weak punches. However, we are missing the scale.

If we take untrained people and measure their punches, then train them in different styles and remeasure... we find an important detail. Compared with an untrained person, style A increases their punching power by 301%, style B by 299% and style C by 297%. So, any style you take, will effectively give you about 300% increase in your punching power. 

What makes the most difference, is how much you train the style you chose. Even if you choose the style with the strongest punch, if you are not too interested in training it, your punch will probably end up being less powerful than if you had trained one of the other weaker punching styles, that you enjoyed training in. Being trained at all, is many times more beneficial than the differences in the power between the arts.

Further, the effects of the punch are not only determined by the power, but also the target you hit and the direction you are hitting it. The effect is the whole reason you are training the punch to begin with. 

Now, the worst thing you could do, would be to make a checklist of all the punches you can find, and then go take a lesson or two for each one, trying to collect a bunch of punches. Each type of punch is effective, when set up correctly, and used within the correct strategy. When you punch (or make any attack) you leave openings in your defense. Without being good at the setups, and the strategy and knowing where to go from here... you will be quite easy to defeat. 

By picking a style, and learning that style, you will get the power, the speed the accuracy... but also the set up, the strategy, the tactics, and where to go next. These are all much more important than the difference in power between one style or the other. 

Again, pick a style you are interested in and train that style. Don't worry about whether its punches are the hardest. At the end of the day, which ever punching style you choose, will be vastly superior to your untrained punch. And by learning a style, you will have learned the vehicle to applying that punch effectively. (the hardest punch in the world means nothing, if you can't land it)


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> In an inverted fist strike, your wrist isn’t always straight.  It’s typically bent upwards a bit right after contact.  Typical close range Kyokushin punch to the abdomen right under the ribs.  That wrist bend really digs in and just flat out sucks to get hit with. #41 is throwing it nicely here.
> View attachment 21586



Fair enough.

But I'd categorize those as exceptions to the rule I posted, and the rule should be learned before the exceptions.


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> Upset punch is one performed with the palm up.





JR 137 said:


> Where I come from, reverse punch simply means a punch from your back foot side. Or perhaps a better way of saying it - when in your stance, if your right foot is back, a right hand punch is a reverse punch. If your left foot is back, a left punch is a reverse punch.
> 
> And “upside down” punch, where your palm is up when you make contact is an “inverted fist strike” aka shita tsuki in Japanese.



In my school "reverse punch" is a specific punch, contrasted in our basic punching curriculum with the "vertical punch" and "underpunch."

The underpunch (at our school) is what @pdg calls "upset punch" and what @JR 137 calls "upside down punch" or "inverted fist strike".  I've also heard it called "gut punch" or similar (kidney punch, liver punch) or "body blow".  

This is why I want to echo @wab25  - don't worry about getting a checklist of all the punches.  It'll make your head explode trying to categorize the differences of underpunch vs. upset punch, when really they're just the same thing.  Instead, learn an art, and your collection of techniques will expand from there.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> I've also heard it called "gut punch" or similar (kidney punch, liver punch) or "body blow"



Add "shovel punch" and "body uppercut" to that list then


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Lets assume the style A hits with the most power, C with the least amount of power and B is right in between. Just looking at this, we should all start studying style A, because no one wants to learn the weak punches. However, we are missing the scale.



Im more intrested in the differences of the punches rather than styles but it does influence how they do them. at best i would like to know how they did punching in the old styles compared to the new ones that kind of thing. Im also a man of compromise so would choose B.         I did make this list to get a good comparison/pros and cons of many common punches going/the evolution of punching. (its working all ready)



wab25 said:


> By picking a style, and learning that style, you will get the power, the speed the accuracy... but also the set up, the strategy, the tactics, and where to go next. These are all much more important than the difference in power between one style or the other.



Funnily enough,i think i have under a thousand repetitions of horizontal punches(Forms,focus pads etc), yet i have managed to habit myself into vertical ones now.  Im taking the advice i got from "dead or alive" by geoff thompson and going to learn to do one technique at least well with both my hands and then go from there. I just don't know if my go to would be a vertical or horizontal one, its one of those two i just need to find out which.      As for finding a style, its a struggle for me, i  cant say i enjoy doing many of them. Its more after effect i cant believe they would work kind of thing rather than a not enjoying doing it, best way to summarize something i dont know the extent of yet.  Plus i have a limited selection to choose from which never helps. 

Thanks for the reply anyway, all of it has been noted.




pdg said:


> Add "shovel punch" and "body uppercut" to that list then


Dont tempt me.


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Im more intrested in the differences of the punches rather than styles but it does influence how they do them. at best i would like to know how they did punching in the old styles compared to the new ones that kind of thing. Im also a man of compromise so would choose B. I did make this list to get a good comparison/pros and cons of many common punches going/the evolution of punching. (its working all ready)



Train under a qualified instructor or master and you will learn the differences between them a lot better than asking here.



Rat said:


> Funnily enough,i think i have under a thousand repetitions of horizontal punches(Forms,focus pads etc), yet i have managed to habit myself into vertical ones now. Im taking the advice i got from "dead or alive" by geoff thompson and going to learn to do one technique at least well with both my hands and then go from there. I just don't know if my go to would be a vertical or horizontal one, its one of those two i just need to find out which. As for finding a style, its a struggle for me, i cant say i enjoy doing many of them. Its more after effect i cant believe they would work kind of thing rather than a not enjoying doing it, best way to summarize something i dont know the extent of yet. Plus i have a limited selection to choose from which never helps.



Don't worry about the style, worry that it's a good instructor.  And remember that you won't learn the whole curriculum when you first start.  We teach our white belts basically 6 different punches, and for a lot of them we don't worry about a lot of the details until green belt (because it's just too much to try to learn).  As a black belt, you are expected to know at least three dozen different types of hand strikes.  But you have to trust the process in order for it to work.



Rat said:


> Dont tempt me.



You misunderstood.  He was adding those to the list of different names for the same punch.  Those are all the same punch.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> We teach our white belts basically 6 different punches,



I didnt even get that many kicks and i did TKD.   I got straight punch, front kick, back kick, side kick and spinning as my intro moves.      

I do have a MMA to look at lined up alongside two Filipino style schools and im looking back at the TKD i did.     Oh on that, who is the resident Arnis expert?


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> I didnt even get that many kicks and i did TKD.   I got straight punch, front kick, back kick, side kick and spinning as my intro moves.
> 
> I do have a MMA to look at lined up alongside two Filipino style schools and im looking back at the TKD i did.     Oh on that, who is the resident Arnis expert?



Different schools have different lesson plans, but often by the time you get to black belt you'll know what the school needs you to know.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> I didnt even get that many kicks and i did TKD.   I got straight punch, front kick, back kick, side kick and spinning as my intro moves.



So, for how long did you do TKD?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> So, for how long did you do TKD?



I think i have around 10-50 hours in one style and 3 in another.  I dont keep a track record, but i am still a beginner in it and its made harder by me originally doing it twice a week to doing it once, month wise i think it was closer to a year. Not all at once either, i had periods of leave during this.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> I think i have around 10-50 hours in one style and 3 in another.  I dont keep a track record, but i am still a beginner in it and its made harder by me originally doing it twice a week to doing it once, month wise i think it was closer to a year. Not all at once either, i had periods of leave during this.



No offence, but that doesn't really count as 'did'...

That's unlikely to have got out of white belt.

Let's put it this way, I've been going 3-4 times a week for nearly 2 1/2 years and got to 3rd kup, only not going when they're shut for holidays, and I don't really class myself as much more than a beginner.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> No offence, but that doesn't really count as 'did'...
> 
> That's unlikely to have got out of white belt.
> 
> Let's put it this way, I've been going 3-4 times a week for nearly 2 1/2 years and got to 3rd kup, only not going when they're shut for holidays, and I don't really class myself as much more than a beginner.




Im not any belt, school didnt hand out white belts and i didnt grade when i went.  I have my reservations about doing that if i did/do go back anyway.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Im not any belt, school didnt hand out white belts and i didnt grade when i went.  I have my reservations about doing that if i did/do go back anyway.



Reservations about doing what, grading?

If you don't, then you're stuck on white belt material...


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Im not any belt, school didnt hand out white belts and i didnt grade when i went.  I have my reservations about doing that if i did/do go back anyway.



If you want to learn martial arts, you're going to have to do a couple of things:

1. Show up
2. Trust the instruction

That means you need to go to class, pay attention while in class, and focus on what you are supposed to be learning.  It means not worrying about what you THINK you're supposed to be learning.  It means trusting that if they have a belt system, there's a reason for it, and you should train towards the next belt, because that will help solidify the techniques you're working on now and show your school's leaders that you're ready for the next step.

There's an old saying I've seen in movies a lot, that in order to learn martial arts, you need to unlearn the wrong information you have.  It comes across as hokey in those movies, but I think it applies here.  What's going to help you best is to be a student.  And to be a good student, you need to show up to class and trust that the teacher knows how they're teaching.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> If you don't, then you're stuck on white belt material...


Thats whats making it not a clear solution for me.  



skribs said:


> 2. Trust the instruction


thats going to be the big issue.   Guaranteed if i actually fight and win i will trust it better but it hasnt been pressure tested through me for me to trust it completely. It needs to do that to be, like you would test fire a rifle or test a tool to see what it could do.    The forms really dont help me for TKD either, past the scope of this thread however.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Thats whats making it not a clear solution for me.
> 
> 
> thats going to be the big issue.   Guaranteed if i actually fight and win i will trust it better but it hasnt been pressure tested through me for me to trust it completely. It needs to do that to be, like you would test fire a rifle or test a tool to see what it could do.    The forms really dont help me for TKD either, past the scope of this thread however.



I really don't think TKD is for you, and you aren't for it.

Just about everything you've posted has been suggesting you want the shortcut to become a fighting machine, TKD is not that.

You will lose a lot before you get close to winning, and I think you'll quit in frustration far before that happens.

Try something with "combat" in the name - don't get me wrong, imo it won't make your chances of actually winning any better, but the scenarios are invariably going to be set up so it feels like you win...


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Thats whats making it not a clear solution for me.



Is that because you have scheduling conflicts (i.e. late night classes for school, unpredictable work schedule like a checker at a grocery store or an ER doc), or that your ability to attend class is dependent on someone bringing you (i.e. you're a teenage kid and need a ride from your parents)?  Or is it that you're lazy and lack commitment?

If it's the former, you have my sympathy.

If it's the later, you get no sympathy from me.



Rat said:


> thats going to be the big issue. Guaranteed if i actually fight and win i will trust it better but it hasnt been pressure tested through me for me to trust it completely. It needs to do that to be, like you would test fire a rifle or test a tool to see what it could do. The forms really dont help me for TKD either, past the scope of this thread however.



You would be surprised how much the forms help with.  But, if you don't like forms, you can take boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, kickboxing, Krav Maga, or any number of martial arts that don't have forms.  Don't use the fact that Taekwondo has forms as an excuse to not do martial arts.

If you join a school and expect to fight and win, you're going to have to show up and train hard (going back to point #1).  You're also not going to win every fight.  You'll lose a lot more early on.  If your attitude is that you can't trust your teacher until you win a fight, you're probably going to quit before you are good enough to win a fight.

In our Taekwondo school, we don't even let people spar until purple belt, because people simply don't have enough control over their techniques to avoid accidentally injuring their opponent.  Even then, it's usually not until green or blue belt that they really develop that control.  So there might be reasons why you're not getting to fight yet.

Pretty much everyone who has chimed in has agreed with me - the best thing for you to do is to go to a martial arts class.  It doesn't have to be Taekwondo or TMA.  In fact, if you want to be a punching expert, Taekwondo isn't what I would take.  If you want to do a martial arts class without forms and without belts, go do boxing.  But you still have to show up to class and trust the instruction.


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> I really don't think TKD is for you, and you aren't for it.
> 
> Just about everything you've posted has been suggesting you want the shortcut to become a fighting machine, TKD is not that.
> 
> ...



It's funny that we were both composing similar messages at the same time.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> Is that because you have scheduling conflicts (i.e. late night classes for school, unpredictable work schedule like a checker at a grocery store or an ER doc), or that your ability to attend class is dependent on someone bringing you (i.e. you're a teenage kid and need a ride from your parents)? Or is it that you're lazy and lack commitment?



Mix/personal.



skribs said:


> You would be surprised how much the forms help with. But, if you don't like forms, you can take boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, kickboxing, Krav Maga, or any number of martial arts that don't have forms. Don't use the fact that Taekwondo has forms as an excuse to not do martial arts.



I cant really see the point in them/haven't been told the point or done a analysis of them.     I am looking at others but anything out of my town is difficult to get to and TKD is the only thing in my town and i do the forms when i went etc, i largely prefer the striking practice due to the former point also some of this would be venting from the form segment as well.    If i got a good reason why they are done it might make doing traditional ones easier as then i wont have the pointless feeling about them.




skribs said:


> Even then, it's usually not until green or blue belt that they really develop that control. So there might be reasons why you're not getting to fight yet.



I got to do light free sparring once, i enjoyed doing it. Step sparring is also remotely enjoyable. Its more of a liberal striking school but half of the class is still patterns and its more patterns when its closer to grading etc.    Each class is diffrent though, pro and con.      Also i am from the U.K and it was a GTUK school.


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## skribs (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Mix/personal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be completely blunt, you don't have the knowledge, skills, or experience to analyze what training tools are or are not effective.  This is why I say trust the instruction.


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## dvcochran (Jul 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> Im more intrested in the differences of the punches rather than styles but it does influence how they do them. at best i would like to know how they did punching in the old styles compared to the new ones that kind of thing. Im also a man of compromise so would choose B.         I did make this list to get a good comparison/pros and cons of many common punches going/the evolution of punching. (its working all ready)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't recommend a "go to" punch. You have to have a broad range of options to adjust to the conditions or opportunities given. Punches are 101 of any style I have ever seen or heard of. If understand you query you are asking for how/why styles and people punch the way they do. For me it is the repetition of class time. The instructor teaching and commitment to my craft.
I will try to break down the most basic punch I learned from the beginning. 
Starting from a front stance right leg back with both feet and shoulders forward, back leg straight, front knee bent: 
1a.) If I did not step and just thrust with my Right hand that would be a Reverse punch. The palm is Down and the strike is with the index and middle knuckles.
1b.) If I did not step and just thrust with my Left hand that would be a Jab. Typically they are high punches but not exclusively. 
2a.) If I step, right leg going forward and punch with the Right hand, that is a straight punch. Hand position is the same. It can hit whatever part of the body I desire, naming convention would be relative to the area struck, low, middle, high.
2b.) If I step, right leg going forward and punch with the Left hand, that would be a Reverse punch. Naming convention would be the same.

Regarding the wrist, for the punches listed the wrist is straight and contact is with the first two knuckles. As I was taught, if you hold your punch out straight and draw a line from the elbow, the first two knuckles are the only two fully supported by structure. They are also the larger bones in the hand but not by much. I have seen more than a few broken bones on the ring and pinky finger from poor hand positioning. 
An important note, especially for me, is the thumb positioning. It is Under the fingers, not beside and certainly not inside. I am left handed and have broken my left thumb three times, twice by getting it hung in a Dobok sleeve because I was careless with where it was positioned during a punch.

Let me know it this is the kind of info you are looking for. More detail can be provided.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> They are also the larger bones in the hand but not by much.



So by this basis somone said a vertical punch lines up the bones in your hand to one of the strongest positions they can be.   Person in question does pugilism and said they used to work in some healthcare position in relation to hands, i could probbly find the video if you want it. 

Also yes this is the sort of thing im looking for.


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## dvcochran (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> So by this basis somone said a vertical punch lines up the bones in your hand to one of the strongest positions they can be.   Person in question does pugilism and said they used to work in some healthcare position in relation to hands, i could probbly find the video if you want it.
> 
> Also yes this is the sort of thing im looking for.


Leaving the footwork out of the explanation, we do not practice a lot of techniques with the palm up. For a closed fist punch, we simply call it an uppercut. It is usually a front hand punch whether stepping or not. The location of the strike is either middle or high. The middle uppercut hits just under the ribs, ideally about 6-8 inches off center, digging in and up. very painful and effective. If you were low or on the ground, you could strike the groin or the pressure points or muscles around the knee or inner thigh.
The high uppercut targets the chin, cheekbone, or nose. I have hit the ear but I don't think that is typical. The punch uses a lot of shoulder muscle and torque, along with the hips and midsection if available. When standing, footwork is important. You usually put more weight on the front leg to help dig in or torque up. I often find myself lower in my stance and dropping my shoulder when throwing an uppercut.
I do bend my wrist on the uppercut so I can still strike with the first two knuckles but I am careful not to go so far that the wrist could just roll on over.


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat you are trying to think far to far ahead of yourself any art no matter what it is, time, patience, perseverance and study are the elements you have to take on board. 

At the moment you are at the bottom of a steep learning curve and you are (like many others have and will) trying to flatten that curve. That will not work as before you can progress you need to learn the basics the fundamentals if you will which then gives you the platform to build on and grow from. 

Some of the questions you are asking (I know little about TKD so I will defer to those who do) are the questions that when you get to Dan rank you start exploring as by then you will have the basics (or hopefully will have) and are then starting to explore. 

No school I have ever attended or visited is going to go into the full on piece by piece breakdown you are looking for at your level and even if they did would you know exactly what they were talking about ? as you are not yet at the level to take on board the nuances or indeed have the basic tech to put it all in context (I am not hitting at you) that will make sense. I have been to seminars where people of your grade attend as they want to know what you are asking and they sit there in silence and are lost and get issed off. It not because the teacher isn't explaining it cause they are, it the beginners are  not at the level to absorb that yet. I have even seen white belts get very upset like you seem to be that they were not picked by the teacher to take ukemi ...what they just did not get was if they were picked they'd either get hurt, as they did not actually know what they were doing or they would look stupid as the instructor is going to move at speed as he is trying to show what he explaining, (then he may break it down) but rat that is to yudansha not beginners. 

Your complaining about forms , I assume you mean what I would call Kata ... you may not see the reason or want to do them but there is where you learn to put the techniques together in a controlled manner and if you slip up your no going to lose your head if you miss a block or perform it incorrectly. I do not know the TKD kata but I presume they are sound in what they are teaching and they will be many and will progress in difficulty as the student progresses. Could you do a 5th dan kata ...yes in theory you could be taught the moves but would you understand them or be able to execute them properly ...I doubt it (again not hitting a you) you don't have the basics the underpinning of all. 

As part of your unwritten contract you are there to learn what is being instructed and passed on and you are by being there of your own free will stating you wish that, Your not there to demand that you are only taught what you want. If that is your attitude then no art will suit. 

You are not going to be turned into a total fighting machine at any school per se as the total fighting machine is a different concept and "thing" even if you go to that kind of school your still at the bottom and they are not going to let a beginner "fight" ...one you'd get destroyed and be off to ER and two it very unprofessional to do that anyway.

Also if you are wanting to go test things ... your school might get a bit unhappy if your gettig known for going and picking fights just to test out things, not to mention that you might get thrown in the jail for fighting !!! I get why you want to know if things work lol but seriously if you go through life and never have to fight then that is a good life.

Relax keep training and learn patience it will come in time.

remember asking detailed questions on a forum you are going to get replies from High ranks with years of training behind them and if you give them the assumption you are either disagreeing or are trying to circumvent the art and fast track they may get a bit grumpy lol as it (although the internet) is not giving them their place, just a thought to ponder on


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## FriedRice (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Video of what i mean when i say reverse punch:




This video cannot be taken seriously as at 3:05 he's basically saying to not throw HOOKS.


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

Can I ask (and you don't have to answer) , what age are you?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> This video cannot be taken seriously as at 3:05 he's basically saying to not throw HOOKS.



Im torn on it, the explanation given is it  puts your wrist/hand at a weaker angle than a straight punch which is bad if you dont have surgery as a option/want to preserve your hands the best. 



To quickly cover the points made for style etc.  I need to clarify the priority of reasons why i look to doing martial arts etc.
1st would be self defence/combat purposes (i classify self defence under combat, ignore my terminology difference) So i want to persue them for skills i can use to defend myself, my property etc and that would also greatly increase my confidence.
2nd would be to keep myself fit and under that i would put as something to keep myself occupied/for fun.
3rd would be sport pursuit, to not undermine the first priority though, so closer to in house competitions where they keep it as realistic as possible etc.

My personal issue with TMA is patterns and it can take a while to get a good skillset (mainly due to the belt system most use) to defend yourself when you might need it the next day.  Granted beginners suck, but some styles do more live training so you pick up actual skills you can use quicker. Like has been mentioned and a paraphrase of the teacher at my TKD school "you start learning at black belt, the coloured belts are just the foundation for black".   I dislike that as it could take years to get the skills that style thinks you should have for fighting and it could be a bust at the end.

  Another reason i dislike patterns, i find myself learning better if i have someone to practice fight against, just helps me grasp how things work easier etc.

Thats the quick summery anyway, i will probably reply with quotes to some of the posts later for more details.  I am also aware TKD is for self betterment more than fighting, but its the only thing i have to work with so i will vent by ranting about how i dislike the patterns.  

hopefully that clarified things.  i will also most likely find something which i enjoy doing without making a long list of issues i have with it sooner or later. 




now disabled said:


> Can I ask (and you don't have to answer) , what age are you?



Yeah, i wont answer that one.  (because it usually follows a age question) i am aware fighting isnt like the films.


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

The reason I asked that was because you are always looking to want to fight ...I just wondered if you were on the receiving end of some beatings etc or threats of that and well when your young it always seems a good thing learn martial arts and then I can beat them 

That route ain't gonna work 

and I'm not having a go in any way at you 

also it not only trad martial arts that have kata modern ones do to and TKD is kinda modern (please dont jump me for saying that my idea of trad might differ from others so I do stand to be corrected )


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Ok, i know about hooks and uppercuts etc, but i dont actually know how to do them safely and opted to avoid doing them on a heavy bag due to them putting your fist at compromised positions.


If you want to develop uppercut, you should get yourself a striking dummy. It's pretty difficult to train it on heavy bag because the angle.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you want to develop uppercut, you should get yourself a striking dummy. It's pretty difficult to train it on heavy bag because the angle.




They are like £400 or else i would all ready have one.      It would help with hammer fists and palm strikes as well, i have jarred my hand doing them on a heavy bag.






now disabled said:


> The reason I asked that was because you are always looking to want to fight ...I just wondered if you were on the receiving end of some beatings etc or threats of that and well when your young it always seems a good thing learn martial arts and then I can beat them




I prepare for the worst circumstances, so im a pessimist, dont want to be jumped and not have good fighting skills.  I am also just intrested in fighting skills as well, its intresting to me how people used to fight historically.

Im kind of iffy on it, im willing to look at each styles independently of each other, like i can get behind some kung fu forms (dont know  many)  but the TKD ones to me just dont seem like they have a combative purpose and i have been told they are meant to mimic fighting, that and i will always do better with a person to practice on/with.  I can get behind the use of the 4 directional things to teach you to punch and block correctly to their ideology, but since i have a encylopedia of the patterns some of them just look iffy and not combative, ironic since i did a step back and knife hand to the foot once when i did light sparring. (thats in the 4 directional pattern)


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat I am sorry but you seem to be fixated by fighting and applying things real time 

Yes sparring has a roll to play but until you get the basics and I mean the basic basic's trying to fight ain't gonna get you anywhere as if you miss a block etc cause you don't know how to then landing in ER with a busted jaw or worse isn't gonna help you is it ? 

Just an example some of the guys on here that have advised you:-  If you tried to fight them then you'd get hurt not cause they wanted to hurt you but because you couldn't get out of the way or block what they threw. If you went to some of the real old style (I mean teaching methods not specific arts) schools you'd get your head in your hands as you do not want to learn the basics lol and yes the old style sensei would hit you if you didn't move lol


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> They are like £400 or else i would all ready have one.      It would help with hammer fists and palm strikes as well, i have jarred my hand doing them on a heavy bag.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your gonna get yourself hurt young man and needlessly so 

I'll let the TKD guys answer you on their kata and the reasons behind them ...I'd suggest you listen to them as with their ranks they will know the why's and where's


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Yeah, i wont answer that one. (because it usually follows a age question) i am aware fighting isnt like the films



It's not an unreasonable question to ask your age and how long you have been training.  It allows us to moderate the complexity and nuance of our answers. Please don't take it the wrong way.
You say you have about 50 hours in training. By contrast some here like myself have thousands of training hours and decades of experience.
The question and conversation is mostly academic.  The angles and positions mean nothing to me,, all I want, is to hear something go crunch in the other guys body when I hit him.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> yes the old style sensei would hit you if you didn't move


Helps keep your guard up.  Can confess to a increase in guarding if you get whacked in the head when you have it down. (extended family TKD, they arent gentle)

Yeah, its just me.    I just like discussing violent things too much im also adamently intrested in weapons how ever dodgy that sounds.   i am trying to find places i can get to to teach a full self defence curriculum which isnt just physical skills, like observation scaling force etc.


Im going to give it to yellow belt when i go back though, im willing to see if i can truly agree with the style after that period of time, that seems like a fair amount of time. (or if its not, someone can suggest a belt level/time which would give me enough experience to actually experience it, i think it might be between Yellow and Blue belts.)

Also if one of the TKD people doesnt mind, it isn't just 4 directional punching and blocking in the grading is it?


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Helps keep your guard up.  Can confess to a increase in guarding if you get whacked in the head when you have it down. (extended family TKD, they arent gentle)
> 
> Yeah, its just me.    I just like discussing violent things too much im also adamently intrested in weapons how ever dodgy that sounds.   i am trying to find places i can get to to teach a full self defence curriculum which isnt just physical skills, like observation scaling force etc.
> 
> ...




oh dear I think I can see where this is heading art wise lol


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## skribs (Jul 12, 2018)

There are training methods at my school it tooke teaching for 3 to 4 years before I understood those principles. And this is teaching claas 15+ hours a week.  If you expect to understand all the trainingethods by yellow belt you are going to be woefully disappointed.

But as I said - you don't have to do kata. Go take a kickboxing class without kata. Just get instruction, and be dedicated to that instruction. And understand its not 50 hours spread over a year or two that make you a fighter.  It's 10 hours a month of class and 20 hours a month practicing on your own for several years that make you a fighter.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> oh dear I think I can see where this is heading art wise lol



Pahahaha, i have evolved into calling it reality based self defence, thank you very much. 

(Krav maga is what you are thinking, correct? )


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

nope try again lol


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## pdg (Jul 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I'll let the TKD guys answer you on their kata and the reasons behind them ...I'd suggest you listen to them as with their ranks they will know the why's and where's



If you want quick answers look in the book, there's an explanation (and even pictures) for each move. You can even look on YouTube where you'll find a "xyz tul* application" for every one.

Those explanations are also what 99% of instructors will tell you.

But, that's not really what they are, the whole concept behind each move or set of moves is something you have to find and make work for yourself.

They aren't to mimic fighting, they're to condition your body and get you used to moving in that way (well, if you do them right anyway).

For instance, a block can be a block - or it can be a strike, or a redirect, or a grab, or a throw, or any combination of them - you won't get those explained to you though because quite honestly you really won't get it. And, what I can make work is different to what someone else can, so the book explanation is what you'll get.

Pretty much a year, even once a week, you'd have easily got up to at least 8th kup if you had the aptitude and dedication (and it matters not if the school handed out white belts, a white belt is what you are).



*Tul = patterns = forms = kata.


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## pdg (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Also if one of the TKD people doesnt mind, it isn't just 4 directional punching and blocking in the grading is it?



To go from white (10th kup) to yellow stripe (9th kup) it'll be saju jirugi, saju makgi, a few kicks, a bit of fitness testing and some theory questions - at least in our ITF school it is.

That first grading is the absolute bare bones basics.



skribs said:


> There are training methods at my school it tooke teaching for 3 to 4 years before I understood those principles. And this is teaching claas 15+ hours a week.  If you expect to understand all the trainingethods by yellow belt you are going to be woefully disappointed.



When it clicks depends on the person and how much effort they put in - both in and out of class.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> To go from white (10th kup) to yellow stripe (9th kup) it'll be saju jirugi, saju makgi, a few kicks, a bit of fitness testing and some theory questions - at least in our ITF school it is.
> 
> That first grading is the absolute bare bones basics.



I think i could get next tag  by next grading if i went back consistently enough. I have the four directional punching an blocking down at least. 

Also was the statement about the book directed towards me?    Because what book do you personally use?


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## pdg (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Also was the statement about the book directed towards me?    Because what book do you personally use?



Yes it was, mainly.

I have the encyclopaedia of taekwon-do, the 15 volume one - I thought the encyclopaedia of patterns was taken from that, but it could have been abridged further if it doesn't show example applications.


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## pdg (Jul 12, 2018)

Oh, also - you said there's pretty much only TKD available in your town.

What town is it? 

If you don't want it public you can pm me, or not, up to you...


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes it was, mainly.
> 
> I have the encyclopaedia of taekwon-do, the 15 volume one - I thought the encyclopaedia of patterns was taken from that, but it could have been abridged further if it doesn't show example applications.



   I got "the encylopedia of taekwondo, volume1" by  Stuart Paul Anslow.    It doesn't actually go into move for move applications as far as i can see currently.

Town is a no go. I have tried everything i can reliably get to and know about. funnily enough, two TKD's in my town and no karate.


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## skribs (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> I got "the encylopedia of taekwondo, volume1" by  Stuart Paul Anslow.    It doesn't actually go into move for move applications as far as i can see currently.
> 
> Town is a no go. I have tried everything i can reliably get to and know about. funnily enough, two TKD's in my town and no karate.



Is there something other than an east asian martial art?  MMA, boxing, krav maga, muay thai, kickboxing, jeet kun do?  On Page 1 you mentioned MMA and 2 FMA schools.  Are those not options now?

I will say that Taekwondo typically focuses a lot on the movements, and will echo your issue that the applications aren't always apparent.  In fact, on the Taekwondo wikis I find, they often describe the exact motion of a technique, but never what it is you are doing with that motion.  If that is an insurmountable problem for you, I will refer you back to the idea there are tons of martial arts that have different training philosophies, and you can look at those.

But whatever art you do, you're going to have to consistently show up to class, and understand it will take years before you are no longer a beginner and decades before you are a master.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

skribs said:


> Is there something other than an east asian martial art? MMA, boxing, krav maga, muay thai, kickboxing, jeet kun do? On Page 1 you mentioned MMA and 2 FMA schools. Are those not options now?



Outside of town which makes it harder to get to.   I think there might be a kick boxing in town but it might be basically boxercise.      I have it planned to go have a look at them in a couple of months.   I asked about the FMA person here because i have two styles to choose from.

I could probably do the patterns easier if i actually had some of the movements given a combative context or a context if its not meant to be applied to fighting, say its more about exercise or something.


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## skribs (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Outside of town which makes it harder to get to.   I think there might be a kick boxing in town but it might be basically boxercise.      I have it planned to go have a look at them in a couple of months.   I asked about the FMA person here because i have two styles to choose from.
> 
> I could probably do the patterns easier if i actually had some of the movements given a combative context or a context if its not meant to be applied to fighting, say its more about exercise or something.



It's useful for learning the stances, learning to apply movement with the techniques (i.e. instead of just punching, moving while punching), and for learning to turn without losing your balance.  This will come up later when you work on things like sliding/skipping kicks, back kicks, or fighting while moving side-to-side.  

It's also good for making sure you can follow the instructions, i.e. turn the right way with the right leg, and learn to make sure your brain is properly talking to your body.  A lot of people have trouble with things like how to turn during a roundhouse kick, how to kick with a back kick, or how to isolate specific muscles and joints when you're refining a technique.  The forms help you learn to manage your body.

The way we do forms at my school also help you focus on proper breathing and on patience during your techniques - too many people rush and get sloppy, but our forms teach you to slow down until you've mastered the motion.

There's a lot more reasons to do these, but I won't be able to list them all right now.  Some you may agree with, some you may not until much later (if you continue on).  Even if you don't like forms, there should be more to your classes than just forms.  Use that time to work on your patience and slow down, and then benefit from the instruction in the other areas of the class.  Don't ignore the forms.  But those shouldn't be the entire class.  There should also be work on your techniques, and you'll see over time that you'll learn how to apply them.

As a white belt, you're not ready to learn all the possible applications.  You need a foundation to stand on.  It's like how you can't learn to read words until you know what the letters are, or how you can't drive without knowing the road signs.  As a white and yellow belt, you're not learning how to fight.  You're learning how to learn how to fight.  You're learning the martial arts vocabulary and foundational elements that will be what you build on when learning to fight.

But don't expect it all to come together until you get your black belt.  That's when you will start learning how to fight.


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## FriedRice (Jul 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Im torn on it, the explanation given is it  puts your wrist/hand at a weaker angle than a straight punch which is bad if you dont have surgery as a option/want to preserve your hands the best.



That video was horrible though, teaching to not  throw hooks with bare knuckles in a fight is just crazy. And I actually do watch their channel for the weapons training, which is excellent. But they don't know much about H2H fighting. In a street fight, if you broke your hand trying to KO the other guy, well then, that's just too bad. You have your other hand, elbows, legs and  head left. Or you may be screwed. But it's still better than getting KO'ed instead of throwing that hook(s) that could have ended the fight your way. 

The only punch that I wouldn't throw in a street fight is an overhand right. And when I fight bare knuckles, I'm very precise and don't throw full power due to the high possibilities of breaking my hands. Dudes have given up just from getting lit up by jabs.

And if you don't like patterns/forms/kata, then Traditional MA's are a bad choice for you, especially TKD for the primary purpose of Self Defense. TKD is a lot of patterns and lots and lots of fancy kicks. It's very easy for a Boxer to pressure fight a TKD and stay at arms length constantly to prevent kicks from being set up.


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## FriedRice (Jul 12, 2018)

Real sloppy haymaker hook, but it did it's job. This guy def. don't train. It takes a lot to break your hand. Just make your fist tight as a rock.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> That video was horrible though, teaching to not  throw hooks with bare knuckles in a fight is just crazy. And I actually do watch their channel for the weapons training, which is excellent. But they don't know much about H2H fighting. In a street fight, if you broke your hand trying to KO the other guy, well then, that's just too bad. You have your other hand, elbows, legs and  head left. Or you may be screwed. But it's still better than getting KO'ed instead of throwing that hook(s) that could have ended the fight your way.
> 
> The only punch that I wouldn't throw in a street fight is an overhand right. And when I fight bare knuckles, I'm very precise and don't throw full power due to the high possibilities of breaking my hands. Dudes have given up just from getting lit up by jabs.
> 
> And if you don't like patterns/forms/kata, then Traditional MA's are a bad choice for you, especially TKD for the primary purpose of Self Defense. TKD is a lot of patterns and lots and lots of fancy kicks. It's very easy for a Boxer to pressure fight a TKD and stay at arms length constantly to prevent kicks from being set up.





Fair enough, i got torn on it when i looked into Filipino boxing and rough and tumble styles of other countries, they included hooks and the like.    As for TKD, probably going to do it until i can reliably go to somewhere else.  I have a pretty nifty front kick anyway.


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## pdg (Jul 13, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> especially TKD for the primary purpose of Self Defense. TKD is a lot of patterns and lots and lots of fancy kicks. It's very easy for a Boxer to pressure fight a TKD and stay at arms length constantly to prevent kicks from being set up.



TKD for primary self defence?

Yeah, probably not the absolute best choice, certainly not the fastest from a development perspective - at least, not if the actual fisticuffs bit is what you call self defence.

And yes, lots of kicks - but it depends on which TKD you're looking at as to how much you use your hands... For instance, class last night - we probably did about 75% hand techniques, a lot of punches, counters to punches, and using punches to set up kicks. It's not all flicky foot tag


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## skribs (Jul 13, 2018)

Rat said:


> Fair enough, i got torn on it when i looked into Filipino boxing and rough and tumble styles of other countries, they included hooks and the like.    As for TKD, probably going to do it until i can reliably go to somewhere else.  I have a pretty nifty front kick anyway.



I think you would be hard-pressed to find a fighting system that DOESN'T include hooks, at least at a higher level.  And since you seem to want to focus on punches and lists of punching techniques, styles you find are very likely to include hook punches.  You will also receive proper instruction on how to use them.



pdg said:


> TKD for primary self defence?
> 
> Yeah, probably not the absolute best choice, certainly not the fastest from a development perspective - at least, not if the actual fisticuffs bit is what you call self defence.
> 
> And yes, lots of kicks - but it depends on which TKD you're looking at as to how much you use your hands... For instance, class last night - we probably did about 75% hand techniques, a lot of punches, counters to punches, and using punches to set up kicks. It's not all flicky foot tag



Depends on the school, really.  A modern TKD school that is mainly Taegeuks and olympic-style sparring won't be much in the way of defense.  A more traditional school that gets into the Tang Soo Do and Shotokan Karate roots will be a lot more hand techniques and self defense.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 13, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Real sloppy haymaker hook, but it did it's job. This guy def. don't train. It takes a lot to break your hand. Just make your fist tight as a rock.


It actually does not take a lot to break your hand.  Particularly with haymaker and hooking punches it is easy to land on the knuckle of the ring and pinkie fingers by mistake, and the metacarpals in that part of the hand can break when that happens.

I believe they actually call it a “boxer’s fracture” because it tends to happen when someone who trains a lot with boxing gloves and wraps, which protect the hand, lands a punch without wearing the gloves and wraps.  They aren’t used to being specific about which part of the fist lands because of the protection provided by the gloves and wraps, and they get injured.


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## skribs (Jul 13, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> It actually does not take a lot to break your hand.  Particularly with haymaker and hooking punches it is easy to land on the knuckle of the ring and pinkie fingers by mistake, and the metacarpals in that part of the hand can break when that happens.
> 
> I believe they actually call it a “boxer’s fracture” because it tends to happen when someone who trains a lot with boxing gloves and wraps, which protect the hand, lands a punch without wearing the gloves and wraps.  They aren’t used to being specific about which part of the fist lands because of the protection provided by the gloves and wraps, and they get injured.



I think that goes back to training.  The punch itself isn't dangerous to use.  The punch improperly trained is.


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## pdg (Jul 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> Depends on the school, really. A modern TKD school that is mainly Taegeuks and olympic-style sparring won't be much in the way of defense. A more traditional school that gets into the Tang Soo Do and Shotokan Karate roots will be a lot more hand techniques and self defense.



That looks more like the ITF/KKW divide if I'm honest.

We never get into the TSD or shotokan roots, but we don't do WT style sparring...


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## skribs (Jul 13, 2018)

pdg said:


> That looks more like the ITF/KKW divide if I'm honest.
> 
> We never get into the TSD or shotokan roots, but we don't do WT style sparring...



My school is affiliated with KKW and we do WTF sparring rules and WTF tournaments.

But we do forms that look more like the Shotokan forms than the Taegeuks, and we do a lot of work on self defense that is primarily grabs and hand strikes.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think that goes back to training.  The punch itself isn't dangerous to use.  The punch improperly trained is.


I never said otherwise.  

I was responding to his comment that it is really difficult to break your hand [while punching].  Depending on one’s background and what one is used to doing, it can be pretty easy to break one’s hand.


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## skribs (Jul 13, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I never said otherwise.
> 
> I was responding to his comment that it is really difficult to break your hand [while punching].  Depending on one’s background and what one is used to doing, it can be pretty easy to break one’s hand.



Yes.  But the OP in this thread doesn't want to include the hook as a punch because it's a dangerous punch.  Any punch carries the risk of being dangerous if done incorrectly.  Even correctly it can hurt you.  The hook itself isn't any more dangerous than a reverse punch.  But it takes training in class to learn how to do them properly.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 13, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> It actually does not take a lot to break your hand.  Particularly with haymaker and hooking punches it is easy to land on the knuckle of the ring and pinkie fingers by mistake, and the metacarpals in that part of the hand can break when that happens.
> 
> I believe they actually call it a “boxer’s fracture” because it tends to happen when someone who trains a lot with boxing gloves and wraps, which protect the hand, lands a punch without wearing the gloves and wraps.  They aren’t used to being specific about which part of the fist lands because of the protection provided by the gloves and wraps, and they get injured.



Yea, if you're going to swing crazy and fight a lot, I'm sure you can break it. It's still not that easy, IMO.  I never broke my hand, well just my pinky and that was playing volleyball. I have a weird bone on 1 of my knuckles that moves left to right noticeably due to too many street fights, but then again, that's anecdotal. 

I'd be more worried about getting "fight bite" infection and/or disease that can lead to amputation, by punching someone with bare knuckles in the teeth. That's why I like quick head kicks for the KO.  Do you know if the foot can be subjected to fight bite like the hand can?  Even though shoes and socks would usually be worn, the instep landing can still be pierced if landing on the teeth.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> Yes.  But the OP in this thread doesn't want to include the hook as a punch because it's a dangerous punch.  Any punch carries the risk of being dangerous if done incorrectly.  Even correctly it can hurt you.  The hook itself isn't any more dangerous than a reverse punch.  But it takes training in class to learn how to do them properly.


Ok that had nothing to do with what I was posting about.  I do agree with you: proper punching without injury does take training.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 13, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Yea, if you're going to swing crazy and fight a lot, I'm sure you can break it. It's still not that easy, IMO.  I never broke my hand, well just my pinky and that was playing volleyball. I have a weird bone on 1 of my knuckles that moves left to right noticeably due to too many street fights, but then again, that's anecdotal.
> 
> I'd be more worried about getting "fight bite" infection and/or disease that can lead to amputation, by punching someone with bare knuckles in the teeth. That's why I like quick head kicks for the KO.  Do you know if the foot can be subjected to fight bite like the hand can?  Even though shoes and socks would usually be worn, the instep landing can still be pierced if landing on the teeth.


It seems to me that any time you get bit and the skin is broken there is chance of infection.  Doesn’t matter where on the body it happens.  I would think that socks and shoes would protect the foot, but you never know how things might unfold.

The human mouth carries a lot of bacteria and human bites can definitely lead to nasty infections.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> Yes.  But the OP in this thread doesn't want to include the hook as a punch because it's a dangerous punch.  Any punch carries the risk of being dangerous if done incorrectly.  Even correctly it can hurt you.  The hook itself isn't any more dangerous than a reverse punch.  But it takes training in class to learn how to do them properly.



I was mainly objecting to that video he posted. They were trying to say that a hook punch should never be used nor trained, or something like that.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 13, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> It seems to me that any time you get bit and the skin is broken there is chance of infection.  Doesn’t matter where on the body it happens.  I would think that socks and shoes would protect the foot, but you never know how things might unfold.
> 
> The human mouth carries a lot of bacteria and human bites can definitely lead to nasty infections.



From what I've read, IIRC, the human hand is somehow, one of the areas more susceptible to infection. Like cases where dudes got into a fist fight with a slight "fight bite" puncture, but not bad enough that he thought he needed to see a doctor. He said he cleaned it with peroxide, bandage, kept it clean...but in 1.5 days, it was swollen and in pain. Went to the emergency room and they put him on an immediate IV antibiotics and said that a few more hours of being untreated and they would've had to amputate his hand. 

I'm not sure how that works or if I read it correctly; and/or if the reports I read were correct....although I do remember reading about 3 different ones in order to further their validity (about the hand being more susceptible).


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 13, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> From what I've read, IIRC, the human hand is somehow, one of the areas more susceptible to infection. Like cases where dudes got into a fist fight with a slight "fight bite" puncture, but not bad enough that he thought he needed to see a doctor. He said he cleaned it with peroxide, bandage, kept it clean...but in 1.5 days, it was swollen and in pain. Went to the emergency room and they put him on an immediate IV antibiotics and said that a few more hours of being untreated and they would've had to amputate his hand.
> 
> I'm not sure how that works or if I read it correctly; and/or if the reports I read were correct....although I do remember reading about 3 different ones in order to further their validity (about the hand being more susceptible).


If the hands are more susceptible to infection than other areas, I’m willing to bet it’s because of everything they come in contact with rather than anything physiological.

Then again, hands don’t heal from injury as well as other areas due to less blood flow, so maybe that’s got something to do with it too.  Probably both, but I suspect more so due to handling things with bacteria on them to begin with.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 13, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> From what I've read, IIRC, the human hand is somehow, one of the areas more susceptible to infection.



This is untrue. There is nothing about the hand to make it more susceptible to infection from a physiologic standpoint. The infection I see most often, honestly, is a shooters abscess.



> Like cases where dudes got into a fist fight with a slight "fight bite" puncture, but not bad enough that he thought he needed to see a doctor. He said he cleaned it with peroxide, bandage, kept it clean...



Cleaning wounds with peroxide is painful and stupid. Peroxide doesn't clean wounds. All it does is foam up impressively as it reacts to the proteins in the blood. Bites get infected because mouths are nasty. The ONLY wound for which prophylactic antibiotics are routinely prescribed is a bite.


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## FriedRice (Jul 13, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Cleaning wounds with peroxide is painful and stupid. Peroxide doesn't clean wounds.



So why do they still make it?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 13, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> So why do they still make it?



Because people still buy it. But you won't see it used for wound cleaning by people who know how to clean wounds.
It's good for getting blood out of my scrubs, but that's about it.


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## pdg (Jul 13, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because people still buy it. But you won't see it used for wound cleaning by people who know how to clean wounds.
> It's good for getting blood out of my scrubs, but that's about it.



You could use it to make yourself blonde as well.



Edit: well, parts of you


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## FriedRice (Jul 13, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because people still buy it. But you won't see it used for wound cleaning by people who know how to clean wounds.
> It's good for getting blood out of my scrubs, but that's about it.



How about as a survival item for your bug out bag...considering that space & weight will be a big factor so you can't carry that much water to just keep pouring on wounds. 

Would you recommend peroxide or alcohol?


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## Danny T (Jul 13, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Peroxide doesn't clean wounds. All it does is foam up impressively as it reacts to the proteins in the blood.


Yeap. Antiseptics such as hydrogen peroxide, rubbing alcohol, & iodine actually damage the wound area and retard healing.
Open wound clean with mild soap and irrigate with clean water.


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## dvcochran (Jul 13, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you want to develop uppercut, you should get yourself a striking dummy. It's pretty difficult to train it on heavy bag because the angle.


Hey, it's Bob!


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## JR 137 (Jul 13, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Hey, it's Bob!


His big brother, Bob XL lives in my basement.  I just realized he’s overdue for a good beating.  I’ll get on that tomorrow.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 14, 2018)

As a response to the punching thing, im more liner.   At best i would do a hook with a open palm as a compromise to the head but i dont really want to break my hand at all, straight punches dont put as much risk to your hands as hooks.

I heard a saying somewhere  that a hand is like clockwork and when it gets broken its difficult to get it working the same again. (paraphrase)        

I mean this is just me, i dont see much value in a hook since it puts your hands at risk so i will opt not to use them (as much)  I will fight what i feel is the best way for me to fight like anyone else would. 

(Plus then it would be harder to keyboard warrior if i had a broken hand )


Also i get the feeling a BoB will probably be better than a bag for me at the moment, since i would need a anatomically similar target.   I dont think it works as well for developing power and its more of a technique trainer.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 14, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> How about as a survival item for your bug out bag...considering that space & weight will be a big factor so you can't carry that much water to just keep pouring on wounds.
> 
> Would you recommend peroxide or alcohol?


Carry a tube of antibiotic ointment.


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## FriedRice (Jul 14, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Carry a tube of antibiotic ointment.



I have that in my pack. Still need something to clean the wound. I think 97% rubbing alcohol is the best choice. It can also be used as fuel, fire starter....I think mouth wash too.


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## FriedRice (Jul 14, 2018)

Rat said:


> As a response to the punching thing, im more liner.   At best i would do a hook with a open palm as a compromise to the head but i dont really want to break my hand at all, straight punches dont put as much risk to your hands as hooks.
> 
> I heard a saying somewhere  that a hand is like clockwork and when it gets broken its difficult to get it working the same again. (paraphrase)
> 
> ...



The main problem though, is that most people will swing crazy when they fight w/o training.

With training, they still swing crazy with the same haymakers, during the 1st few times they spar hard and even in their 1st ring fights w/adequate training. Very difficult to condition yourself to not throw hooks when there's basically just 3 types of punches.....maybe only 2 if you just count straight & round punches.


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## dvcochran (Jul 14, 2018)

Rat said:


> As a response to the punching thing, im more liner.   At best i would do a hook with a open palm as a compromise to the head but i dont really want to break my hand at all, straight punches dont put as much risk to your hands as hooks.
> 
> I heard a saying somewhere  that a hand is like clockwork and when it gets broken its difficult to get it working the same again. (paraphrase)
> 
> ...


The most painful bar fight hit I ever received that didn't bleed was a hook to the ear. By far. I would not discount them in your arsenal.


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## now disabled (Jul 14, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The most painful bar fight hit I ever received that didn't bleed was a hook to the ear. By far. I would not discount them in your arsenal.



Any strike to that area will not only hurt as you say but it can and probably will affect the sense of balance as we all know that is controlled within the ear workings.

Rat without being taken as being forward. 

Young man before you do any more or start going into things and techniques, to study any art and absorb and progress you need inner self discipline. Now that you can do alone and it comes from within. You are getting the answers but without training they are really meaningless (no guys your answers are right) and without the inner self discipline to train and study you will not be able to apply them


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 16, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> How about as a survival item for your bug out bag...considering that space & weight will be a big factor so you can't carry that much water to just keep pouring on wounds.
> 
> Would you recommend peroxide or alcohol?



Neither. They're both useless for cleaning a wound. Carry a little soap. If you can carry a pint of useless junk to pour on the wound, you can carry a pint of water.


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## skribs (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> As a response to the punching thing, im more liner.   At best i would do a hook with a open palm as a compromise to the head but i dont really want to break my hand at all, straight punches dont put as much risk to your hands as hooks.
> 
> I heard a saying somewhere  that a hand is like clockwork and when it gets broken its difficult to get it working the same again. (paraphrase)
> 
> ...



An open hand hook is going to be more of a slap than a strike.

Try not to get hung up on what training tools you will use, because they won't replace actual instruction.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 16, 2018)

with all this talk about hook punches hurting your wrists,,,why is it that i never hurt my wrists?
 maybe because i train to keep them straight, arm position is parallel to the floor as best as possible, rotate my body into the punch, swivel on the toes and i get closer to my opponent to throw them then most people might feel comfortable being.
now if your opponent is a foot taller than maybe the hook to the head should be dropped a level to the rib cage.
maybe ,,,just thinking out loud here.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 16, 2018)

Well, probably going to take me a while to experiment and find out what i like doing. What i can justify to myself and prefer doing etc.


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## skribs (Jul 16, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> with all this talk about hook punches hurting your wrists,,,why is it that i never hurt my wrists?
> maybe because i train to keep them straight, arm position is parallel to the floor as best as possible, rotate my body into the punch, swivel on the toes and i get closer to my opponent to throw them then most people might feel comfortable being.
> now if your opponent is a foot taller than maybe the hook to the head should be dropped a level to the rib cage.
> maybe ,,,just thinking out loud here.



I was thinking about this thread while I was practicing on BOB yesterday.  I've never hurt my wrist throwing a hook punch.  In fact, I can't even imagine hurting my wrist with one.  I would have to do something seriously wrong to hurt myself doing one.  If I did, it would be my knuckles, which applies to any punch I'd throw.



Rat said:


> Well, probably going to take me a while to experiment and find out what i like doing. What i can justify to myself and prefer doing etc.



You're not going to be able to get an accurate view of what does and doesn't work for you until you're doing the techniques correct.  Every single martial arts technique is dangerous to do and completely ineffective if you perform them improperly.  Any punch with a limp wrist will hurt you.  A weak fist will hurt you.  A kick at the wrong angle will hurt your knee.  Attempting a throw without the right leverage and your opponent will have an easy option to choke you out.  Kick with the toes and break your foot.  But all of these techniques if done correctly can be devastating to your opponent.

This is why I have been harping on "go to class."  An instructor will be able to help you with all sorts of things, from how to plant your feet, drop your hips, and properly get your full power into the punch, while at the same time keeping the fist tight and wrist straight so as to hit the target safely.  They will be able to look at what you're doing and give you pointers to correct mistakes you make and help you improve.

I'm getting ready for my 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo.  I have trained under my master for over 5 years, and I did another 4 years under a different school.  The level I'm at, I still get corrected on details from my Master on how to improve basic techniques I've been doing for almost a decade.  I play around with stuff, too, but I'm almost 10 years into my TKD career, and I still need instruction to improve.  

As someone with less than a year of haphazard attendance, you need instruction a lot more than you need to experiment for yourself.  Especially if you're scared to do half the techniques.


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## now disabled (Jul 16, 2018)

skribs said:


> I was thinking about this thread while I was practicing on BOB yesterday.  I've never hurt my wrist throwing a hook punch.  In fact, I can't even imagine hurting my wrist with one.  I would have to do something seriously wrong to hurt myself doing one.  If I did, it would be my knuckles, which applies to any punch I'd throw.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just aid something similar to the op in a different thread lol

Young man you are enthusiastic, channel that into studying in class and learning then you will move forward as to much theory imo at this point is not really going to help and it could get you over thinking.Learning the techniques and studying will get the results you require. Then you can start picking things apart


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 16, 2018)

skribs said:


> This is why I have been harping on "go to class."



Should be giving it a go in coming months, just need the routine again.

Edit:  I do quite like the advice of learning any technique that works for your hands so you can at least fight someone off if they start something.


----------



## now disabled (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> Should be giving it a go in coming months, just need the routine again.



My advice on books is don't go bankrupting yourself on buying books as you might well find that what you read isn't exactly what you are being taught. That may sound stupid but due to all the fragmentation of the arts and even when the books were written you might get what you see as contradictory statements where they may not be just early on you are not at the stage to see that they are not. Jeez you may even get the same thing called different names stick to the classes then after start the serious reading etc


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## skribs (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> Should be giving it a go in coming months, just need the routine again.
> 
> Edit:  I do quite like the advice of learning any technique that works for your hands so you can at least fight someone off if they start something.



I think Krav Maga or something similar is really what you're looking for.  The goal of that art is to get you effective in self defense as quickly as possible.


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## now disabled (Jul 16, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think Krav Maga or something similar is really what you're looking for.  The goal of that art is to get you effective in self defense as quickly as possible.



I'd agree there


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> My advice on books is don't go bankrupting yourself on buying books as you might well find that what you read isn't exactly what you are being taught. That may sound stupid but due to all the fragmentation of the arts and even when the books were written you might get what you see as contradictory statements where they may not be just early on you are not at the stage to see that they are not. Jeez you may even get the same thing called different names stick to the classes then after start the serious reading etc



Oh god books, the martial arts and self defence genre is the most exploited, like self help ones.    Thank fully i haven't fell for the "how to finish a fight in X" genre.  There is a wave of bad ones drowing out the good ones and its hard to know which is which.
Plus i cant complain to the authot as easily as i can a instructor about it being too structured for self defence






skribs said:


> I think Krav Maga or something similar is really what you're looking for. The goal of that art is to get you effective in self defense as quickly as possible.



I agree, i also think something in the realm of reality based self defence would do wonders for myself  and is what i am looking for and will put some of my concerns about short term efficiency at rest.  I have looked for them in my area but i cant find any i trust and are still doing self defence, so its kind of sucky.  Plus i was looking at teaching more self defence orientated skills at  a future date. 

I know of quite a few that i find interesting and its annoying because i keep finding them and they arent near me.  


Edit: how ever i just remembered there is a place which does self defence courses near me, one of you might get a DM to help me see if its worth the money.


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## skribs (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> Oh god books, the martial arts and self defence genre is the most exploited, like self help ones.    Thank fully i haven't fell for the "how to finish a fight in X" genre.  There is a wave of bad ones drowing out the good ones and its hard to know which is which.
> Plus i cant complain to the authot as easily as i can a instructor about it being too structured for self defence
> 
> 
> ...



Any art you do can have self defense in it.  Even if the art you do right now doesn't focus on it, it's going to be better than just experimenting on your own on the heavy bag.  Getting used to the correct body mechanics will help when you do go to a school that focuses on self defense.


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## now disabled (Jul 16, 2018)

what is in your area ? I mean what systems/arts


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> what is in your area ? I mean what systems/arts



in walking range its TKD, i think there might be a  chinese kickboxing in range i need to go have a look at which i keep forgetting about.  Extension from that, there is two kung fu styles, a few TKD's, i think a few Karates, MMA,  there is a place which does courses for self defence (just remembered, see above edit) a krav maga, a Judo and a BJJ, oh and two Arnis styles.     Well, one of the MMA places hosts other styles, like Muay Thai etc.    I think there might be a boxing or two  as well.


I havent looked for every style and a few might be more inner circle due to bad advertising. and i dont have a car and am not going to some of these places at 18-21:00

Edit: can either of you do a little skim of this course for me if i Private message it to you?


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## skribs (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> in walking range its TKD, i think there might be a  chinese kickboxing in range i need to go have a look at which i keep forgetting about.  Extension from that, there is two kung fu styles, a few TKD's, i think a few Karates, MMA,  there is a place which does courses for self defence (just remembered, see above edit) a krav maga, a Judo and a BJJ, oh and two Arnis styles.     Well, one of the MMA places hosts other styles, like Muay Thai etc.    I think there might be a boxing or two  as well.
> 
> 
> I havent looked for every style and a few might be more inner circle due to bad advertising. and i dont have a car and am not going to some of these places at 18-21:00



So let's narrow it down.  What is in walking range that is in a neighborhood you consider safe?

Alternatively, could you get a bicycle?  Often you can get great deals at garage sales or on private sale apps.  That could extend your acceptable range.


----------



## now disabled (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> in walking range its TKD, i think there might be a  chinese kickboxing in range i need to go have a look at which i keep forgetting about.  Extension from that, there is two kung fu styles, a few TKD's, i think a few Karates, MMA,  there is a place which does courses for self defence (just remembered, see above edit) a krav maga, a Judo and a BJJ, oh and two Arnis styles.     Well, one of the MMA places hosts other styles, like Muay Thai etc.    I think there might be a boxing or two  as well.
> 
> 
> I havent looked for every style and a few might be more inner circle due to bad advertising. and i dont have a car and am not going to some of these places at 18-21:00
> ...



skim of the course?


----------



## now disabled (Jul 16, 2018)

skribs said:


> So let's narrow it down.  What is in walking range that is in a neighborhood you consider safe?
> 
> Alternatively, could you get a bicycle?  Often you can get great deals at garage sales or on private sale apps.  That could extend your acceptable range.



and it would improve your cardio too


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 16, 2018)

skribs said:


> So let's narrow it down.  What is in walking range that is in a neighborhood you consider safe?
> 
> Alternatively, could you get a bicycle?  Often you can get great deals at garage sales or on private sale apps.  That could extend your acceptable range.



TKD.   The kick boxing is on the edge of my town.      Also i cant ride a bike.


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## now disabled (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> TKD.   The kick boxing is on the edge of my town.      Also i cant ride a bike.



A bike would certainly get you further afield and ummm it ain't that hard to learn 

or 

Rollerskates lol


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Rollerskates



Dont even, there is roller derby here of all things.        .


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## skribs (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> TKD.   The kick boxing is on the edge of my town.      Also i cant ride a bike.



Learn.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 16, 2018)

skribs said:


> I was thinking about this thread while I was practicing on BOB yesterday. I've never hurt my wrist throwing a hook punch. In fact, I can't even imagine hurting my wrist with one. I would have to do something seriously wrong to hurt myself doing one. If I did, it would be my knuckles, which applies to any punch I'd throw.


 i think the most common reason for hurting the wrist during a hook punch is reaching to far. 



skribs said:


> A weak fist will hurt you.


 not 100% true.   if your hand is out of position yes it will make things worse but i tend to punch the bag and hit people (in a class setting)  with a relaxed hand.  as long as contact is with the correct knuckles its not a big deal.


----------



## now disabled (Jul 16, 2018)

Rat said:


> Dont even, there is roller derby here of all things.        .



Go do the senshusei at the Yoshinkan

They will take you from knowing zero and teach you right up to shodan and believe me lol you will get plenty rough stuff lol

and

you might even get to play with the riot police when they come to the course lol

You will get the theory to


----------



## skribs (Jul 16, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i think the most common reason for hurting the wrist during a hook punch is reaching to far.
> 
> not 100% true.   if your hand is out of position yes it will make things worse but i tend to punch the bag and hit people (in a class setting)  with a relaxed hand.  as long as contact is with the correct knuckles its not a big deal.



Learn the rule before the exception, I say.  Sometimes you may do something different, but you should know why it's different and why you do it that way.


----------



## now disabled (Jul 17, 2018)

skribs said:


> Learn the rule before the exception, I say.  Sometimes you may do something different, but you should know why it's different and why you do it that way.



That a very good way of putting it 

Imo some of the basics in there pure form (techniques) do not totally work but have to be learned to give a solid foundation. It is as you progress that the nuances and exceptions can come in. Maybe that is why in some arts people get frustrated and ask the questions that complicate things. Maybe it a more modern or a western thing and with the rise of the internet that things are being picked apart more and more. Imo in days gone by it would not have been lower grades or ranks that would have picked apart things but the high ranks and even then in private.
I guess in a way if you build a house and don't get the foundations right then problems will arise as it is imo with any of the arts lay the solid foundations then move forward.


----------



## skribs (Jul 17, 2018)

now disabled said:


> That a very good way of putting it
> 
> Imo some of the basics in there pure form (techniques) do not totally work but have to be learned to give a solid foundation. It is as you progress that the nuances and exceptions can come in. Maybe that is why in some arts people get frustrated and ask the questions that complicate things. Maybe it a more modern or a western thing and with the rise of the internet that things are being picked apart more and more. Imo in days gone by it would not have been lower grades or ranks that would have picked apart things but the high ranks and even then in private.
> I guess in a way if you build a house and don't get the foundations right then problems will arise as it is imo with any of the arts lay the solid foundations then move forward.



Well, we have our horse stance punching, which I think mainly serves to isolate the arms to teach the punching motion without worrying about the legs.  However, it does come up in a lot of our defense drills.  Defending against a punch or a kick, move off the line 45 degrees and make a horse stance at a diagonal to your opponent and then do several strikes from that position.

However, there is a sort of exaggerated precision in the techniques that I don't think comes out in a real situation.  We have a brother and sister (about 13 and 10) who take classes together.  The brother's forms are very raw.  You can see the power and it looks like the punches or kicks he'd throw in an actual fight.  The girl's forms are much more refined.  Each technique is precise and controlled.  You still see her snap power in her forms, but she has a focus on technique that her brother doesn't.

I think another thing that happens is as you build on your foundations, those foundations don't become the only thing you know, and in many situations you'll have something else you can do.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 18, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Maybe that is why in some arts people get frustrated and ask the questions that complicate things. Maybe it a more modern or a western thing and with the rise of the internet that things are being picked apart more and more. Imo in days gone by it would not have been lower grades or ranks that would have picked apart things but the high ranks and even then in private.




We dont have the same culture as the places these things were made in.  In some asian countries respect for elders is still engrained on people to the level they wont question/oppose them.  Same with who ever is in a supervisory position, we dont have that in many western countries. (at least to that extent, its perfectly fine to question someone who is older/oppose them or someone who is your boss)         The restriction of knowledge to belt ranks is what urks me,if i ask for more details on something i would like to be humoured as it helps me understand the point of something.     (granted some places do it better than others)


I will give a glossing mention to most people disagree as to what is a foundation and how it should be taught.    I am a good example. 




The next round of posts by me for punching would probably be Filipino boxing.


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## skribs (Jul 18, 2018)

Rat said:


> We dont have the same culture as the places these things were made in.  In some asian countries respect for elders is still engrained on people to the level they wont question/oppose them.  Same with who ever is in a supervisory position, we dont have that in many western countries. (at least to that extent, its perfectly fine to question someone who is older/oppose them or someone who is your boss)         The restriction of knowledge to belt ranks is what urks me,if i ask for more details on something i would like to be humoured as it helps me understand the point of something.     (granted some places do it better than others)
> 
> I will give a glossing mention to most people disagree as to what is a foundation and how it should be taught.    I am a good example.
> 
> The next round of posts by me for punching would probably be Filipino boxing.



Actually, you're not unique.  A lot of people don't see the point in forms.  There are plenty of teachers out there that you can not like their teaching style.  That's perfectly fine.  But you need to find an instructor you DO like and do agree with and learn from them.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> That's perfectly fine. But you need to find an instructor you DO like and do agree with and learn from them.



Oh i know the woes for that one.


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## now disabled (Jul 18, 2018)

Rat said:


> Oh i know the woes for that one.



I don't think any of the established arts are going to be a good fit for you.


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## now disabled (Jul 18, 2018)

Rat said:


> We dont have the same culture as the places these things were made in.  In some asian countries respect for elders is still engrained on people to the level they wont question/oppose them.  Same with who ever is in a supervisory position, we dont have that in many western countries. (at least to that extent, its perfectly fine to question someone who is older/oppose them or someone who is your boss)         The restriction of knowledge to belt ranks is what urks me,if i ask for more details on something i would like to be humoured as it helps me understand the point of something.     (granted some places do it better than others)
> 
> 
> I will give a glossing mention to most people disagree as to what is a foundation and how it should be taught.    I am a good example.
> ...



Why do you think the knowledge is being restricted? 

I'm not being big headed and I am no longer fit but young man if I tried to explain and expect you to perform techniques at my level you will fail get even more frustrated and still get no where.

Your looking to start at the top of the tree not climb your way up it


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## now disabled (Jul 18, 2018)

Rat your looking for a fast track and young man there is no fast track at all.

It is all well and good that your asking questions and the guys who know are explaining them what I fear is that having got those explanations your going to think you now "know" and can apply them.

Theory is one thing actually applying them is a whole different ball game.

As you seem to have a major issue with the grading systems and the forms then why are you looking at any of the arts that have them? 

A word of warning (friendly word) I hope you don't go to a dojo and try and make out that you already know as that is not going to do you any good at all in fact it might get you kicked out lol and I really hope you don't go out on the streets saying you know these techs as umm yo might come across a person that does and you might regret it lol


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 20, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Why do you think the knowledge is being restricted?



Going to have to cut this one short, i had a paragraph or so written then my laptop crashed and it didnt save.

The belt system to me can be exploited and is arbitary in my eyes, the over arching organization has decided what belt needs to know to pass onto the next.    in systems which arent good you can be stuck to your belt too long to keep you coming back to progress to the next level of knowledge or you can be fast tracked and it made meaningless.        Its just convenient it exists since it helps them in a capitalist system, could have gutted what a white belt used to be taught to make it easier to get the next belt etc.     How ever i understand the need for a system of marking progression, the one i thought up for was just some marker to say they learnt basics, one for intermediate and one for advanced. (same issue if you disagree with whats the foundation or maybe i am fast tracking or slowing down to get more money)

Plus in the TKD system, they even confess your actual teaching starts at black belt, so you arent technically climbing the tree until you are at the top of the tree and that stands contradictory to them putting a self defence marker on it. Useless for self defence if it takes you 20 years to learn it.    (after those 20 years of learning it fair game, but you cant guarantee you don't need your training until your a black belt, i have this issue with most traditional styles)

I think im just bias against TKD.   I haven't had positive feed back to balance out the negatives i have been told/see about it. Most of my issues apply to most traditional styles like the time it takes to be proficient, kata etc.    Some videos i watched on some of the elements of TKD have given me faith enough to try it again for a little bit. (Plus i think i may be at fault a little for the dislike i find in TKD, all i have to say about that)   Same with what some of you have said about some of the moves being used for various things, i can tell you this right now im glad i have a ITF off shoot and not a WTF one.




now disabled said:


> A word of warning (friendly word) I hope you don't go to a dojo and try and make out that you already know as that is not going to do you any good at all in fact it might get you kicked out lol and I really hope you don't go out on the streets saying you know these techs as umm yo might come across a person that does and you might regret it lol



If they want to put full sparring gear on before they start the "correction" im fine with that.      I mean,when i get more confident i might ask more questions, pending on how well they take that would be if i like going there or not.  I recall one question i asked on close handed low blocks vs open handed and the response sounded fair enough, which was preservation of the fingers.    Fair enough though, i know not to annoy people when they are in kicking distance.


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## now disabled (Jul 20, 2018)

Rat it is not just TKD that says you start learning when you reach BB lol

I don't think your quite grasping what a gaining a BB actually is or what it means, even at my rank (and I'll never go further now) I am still learning.

There will always be arguments about the lower grading system but suggesting that people are being held back so they keep coming back isn't imo correct.

I do get the impression that you are like many young bucks, you do not want to be at the bottom (white belt) and you don't consider yourself there either and in the MA world that isn't a good attitude as it shows a lack of humility and a lack of understanding why you start at the bottom.

As far as putting on full sparring gear, it wasn't so long ago that you were going on about things not being real enough for you!!! So now you want full sparring gear ???

If any higher grade falls out with you in a class then they either are not deserving of their grade as they should be able to control that or it is you who is being disrespectful in your attitude towards them. 

Rat there is no fast track none nada doesn't exist and any place that is offering that or is telling you that or leading you to believe that there is ...I will not say what I really think.

I actually get the impression that you want and think that if you ask the guys on here you are going to fast track and or be able to teach ... I may be wrong but ....

I honestly have no idea at all what Art or system is going to suit you as you seem to have no patience at all lol

sorry for being strong but there are a few things your just not grasping imo


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## pdg (Jul 20, 2018)

Rat said:


> Plus in the TKD system, they even confess your actual teaching starts at black belt, so you arent technically climbing the tree until you are at the top of the tree and that stands contradictory to them putting a self defence marker on it. Useless for self defence if it takes you 20 years to learn it



If that's your understanding then it's either been very badly explained or you've misinterpreted...

Firstly, the only way I can see it taking 20 years to reach black belt is if you're either very very bad or you do like 10 lessons a year...

Black belt is not top of the tree.

Your proper training starts when you start, but until you get to first Dan you're a beginner - first Dan is 'novice'. That's the point where you (should) have a good understanding of the fundamentals and are in a position to build upon those.

If you can't apply what you get taught at your first few white belt lessons then that's on you I'm afraid.


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

Rat said:


> The belt system to me can be exploited and is arbitary in my eyes, the over arching organization has decided what belt needs to know to pass onto the next. in systems which arent good you can be stuck to your belt too long to keep you coming back to progress to the next level of knowledge or you can be fast tracked and it made meaningless. Its just convenient it exists since it helps them in a capitalist system, could have gutted what a white belt used to be taught to make it easier to get the next belt etc. How ever i understand the need for a system of marking progression, the one i thought up for was just some marker to say they learnt basics, one for intermediate and one for advanced. (same issue if you disagree with whats the foundation or maybe i am fast tracking or slowing down to get more money)



Plus in the TKD system, they even confess your actual teaching starts at black belt, so you arent technically climbing the tree until you are at the top of the tree and that stands contradictory to them putting a self defence marker on it. Useless for self defence if it takes you 20 years to learn it.  (after those 20 years of learning it fair game, but you cant guarantee you don't need your training until your a black belt, i have this issue with most traditional styles)[/quote]

Curriculum built around a belt system follow this philosophy:  give you bites of information and let you digest it.  Once you've digested it, you get put into the next part of the curriculum so you can learn the next piece of it.  There's a lot to learn in martial arts.  If we taught our white belts the stuff we teach in our black belt classes, it would be so far over their heads and they wouldn't be able to do any of it, would be frustrated, and would quit.

It's not about hiding the curriculum in secrecy.  It's about teaching you what you're ready to learn.

And your idea for having a marker to say you've learned basics, intermediate, and advanced is nothing new. * In fact...it's what belt systems do*.  What you're saying is "I don't like cake, but I have an idea for a desert which is a fluffy, sweet bread-like baked good covered in frosting."

The comment about "not really learning until you're a black belt" is a bit tongue-in-cheek.  It's mainly pointed at people who want to get their black belt and then quit training.  It is expected that someone who is a black belt in Taekwondo has a firm understanding of Taekwondo, but it is at black belt where you learn to apply the techniques.  But without the training up to that point, you wouldn't have the techniques to apply.



> I think im just bias against TKD. I haven't had positive feed back to balance out the negatives i have been told/see about it. Most of my issues apply to most traditional styles like the time it takes to be proficient, kata etc. Some videos i watched on some of the elements of TKD have given me faith enough to try it again for a little bit. (Plus i think i may be at fault a little for the dislike i find in TKD, all i have to say about that) Same with what some of you have said about some of the moves being used for various things, i can tell you this right now im glad i have a ITF off shoot and not a WTF one.



If you don't want to take time to be proficient, you're not going to find any art that works for you.  Krav Maga will be the most efficient at teaching you the basics of fighting, but guess what!  It has a belt system!  It also takes quite a long time and rigorous training to progress to higher levels.  If you want to know more than "palm strike repeatedly to the face" you're going to need to take a lot of time to train.

And if you're not training at all - who cares if the art you're avoiding is fast or slow.  If it takes you 5 years to become proficient in Taekwondo, or you spend 5 years waiting to find an art that you can be proficient in within a few months...Taekwondo is going to be faster.


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

Rat said:


> How ever i understand the need for a system of marking progression, the one i thought up for was just some marker to say they learnt basics, one for intermediate and one for advanced. (same issue if you disagree with whats the foundation or maybe i am fast tracking or slowing down to get more money)



I said this in my previous post but I want to highlight it...

*THIS IS WHAT A BELT SYSTEM DOES.*


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> If that's your understanding then it's either been very badly explained or you've misinterpreted...
> 
> Firstly, the only way I can see it taking 20 years to reach black belt is if you're either very very bad or you do like 10 lessons a year...
> 
> ...



I think the "black belt is when your training begins" is more aimed at people who get their black belt and quit.  But at our school, black belts don't really learn much new stuff (as far as Taekwondo anyway).  It's mostly just different ways of combining or stringing together stuff we knew already.  Whereas for our purple belts they're learning back kicks and flying side kicks, our green belts are learning tornado kicks and hook kicks, and our red belts are learning how to do them 100% proper.  Our black belts are learning how to stream things together better and pull off more advanced combinations.


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## pdg (Jul 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> I said this in my previous post but I want to highlight it...
> 
> *THIS IS WHAT A BELT SYSTEM DOES.*



But it does it in a more precise and structured manner than "basic / intermediate / advanced".

Maybe instead of colours we could have basic 1, basic 2 (up to say, 9?) then have intermediate 1-6 and advanced 1-4.

Just think how much easier that would be


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I actually get the impression that you want and think that if you ask the guys on here you are going to fast track and or be able to teach ... I may be wrong but ....



Is this the next level of Ameri-Do-Te or Rex Kwon Do?  Not even someone who got their blue belt and quit to make their own art, but someone who got a bunch of advice online and started their own system?


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> But it does it in a more precise and structured manner than "basic / intermediate / advanced".
> 
> Maybe instead of colours we could have basic 1, basic 2 (up to say, 9?) then have intermediate 1-6 and advanced 1-4.
> 
> Just think how much easier that would be



Depends on the system.  BJJ has only 3 colors between white and black (blue, purple, brown).

At my school we say white/yellow is beginner, purple/orange is intermediate, and green/blue/red are advanced.


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## pdg (Jul 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think the "black belt is when your training begins" is more aimed at people who get their black belt and quit.  But at our school, black belts don't really learn much new stuff (as far as Taekwondo anyway).  It's mostly just different ways of combining or stringing together stuff we knew already.  Whereas for our purple belts they're learning back kicks and flying side kicks, our green belts are learning tornado kicks and hook kicks, and our red belts are learning how to do them 100% proper.  Our black belts are learning how to stream things together better and pull off more advanced combinations.



There's a couple of "new" things that Dan ranks do at ours, but mainly the same as you describe - working on better combinations and applications.

Even the "new" stuff isn't exactly reserved or restricted secret knowledge though.


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## now disabled (Jul 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Our black belts are learning how to stream things together better and pull off more advanced combinations.



Rat that should give you a very plain idea of what a BB is and why it is where you start learning


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## now disabled (Jul 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Is this the next level of Ameri-Do-Te or Rex Kwon Do?  Not even someone who got their blue belt and quit to make their own art, but someone who got a bunch of advice online and started their own system?



It is making me start to wonder lol


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## pdg (Jul 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Depends on the system.  BJJ has only 3 colors between white and black (blue, purple, brown).
> 
> At my school we say white/yellow is beginner, purple/orange is intermediate, and green/blue/red are advanced.



Yeah, but BJJ is just getting better at sitting on people isn't it? 

Going off the class structure we use, I suppose I could say that 10th-7th kup is beginner, 6th and 5th kup are intermediate and 4th-1st kup are advanced...

I'm 3rd kup, and I'm a beginner to me though...


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## now disabled (Jul 20, 2018)

Rat 
I can't speak on TKD at all I was just trying to give you general advice.

However 

If you look at any of the vids on you tube about my art (Aikido) and you see the lowere kyu grades (some of the higher to lol) performing techniques or taking ukemi they look blocky and are not flowing when they take ukemi they are anticipating (look at the feet that gives it away) but if you then look at the yudansha either performing or taking Ukemi (and believe me in some of the demos there are some kinda high grades taking ukemi ) you will see them flow and when they take ukemi they are being made to (again look at the feet it the give away) yes they make it look good but that is why they are yudansha, 

That is why I said if I watch high grades I learn and the first thing I look at is the feet as that actually gives so much away in them taking ukemi. 

I am sure the TKD guys can give you similar examples in TKD


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yeah, but BJJ is just getting better at sitting on people isn't it?
> 
> Going off the class structure we use, I suppose I could say that 10th-7th kup is beginner, 6th and 5th kup are intermediate and 4th-1st kup are advanced...
> 
> I'm 3rd kup, and I'm a beginner to me though...



That is true, and is a point I was thinking.

His solution to use a marker other than a belt obfuscates the problem.  His problem is that belts can be used to hold people back or to keep techniques secret.  "I'm sorry, you only have an intermediate marker, I won't teach you this technique that's in the advanced class."  Or "I'm not going to certify you advanced because (reasons)."  That can be the same issue regardless of what system is used to mark your place in the curriculum.


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Rat
> I can't speak on TKD at all I was just trying to give you general advice.
> 
> However
> ...



I can speak to this in hapkido.  As a white belt, everything was overwhelming and my footwork was terrible.  For example, if you needed to move counter-clockwise from 9:00 to 12:00, it's supposed to be a single sweep from 9, around the center of the dial, and up to 12.  I would instead do steps hitting the edge of the clock from 9 to 6, then 5, then 4, then 3, then...you get the idea.  I'd end up going around the clock 2-3 times before getting a takedown or giving up.

As an orange belt, this is mostly fixed.


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## now disabled (Jul 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> That is true, and is a point I was thinking.
> 
> His solution to use a marker other than a belt obfuscates the problem.  His problem is that belts can be used to hold people back or to keep techniques secret.  "I'm sorry, you only have an intermediate marker, I won't teach you this technique that's in the advanced class."  Or "I'm not going to certify you advanced because (reasons)."  That can be the same issue regardless of what system is used to mark your place in the curriculum.



100% agree 

I failed my 4th dan first time and yes I was upset but when it was pointed out to me why I just took that on board and well practiced more


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## now disabled (Jul 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> I can speak to this in hapkido.  As a white belt, everything was overwhelming and my footwork was terrible.  For example, if you needed to move counter-clockwise from 9:00 to 12:00, it's supposed to be a single sweep from 9, around the center of the dial, and up to 12.  I would instead do steps hitting the edge of the clock from 9 to 6, then 5, then 4, then 3, then...you get the idea.  I'd end up going around the clock 2-3 times before getting a takedown or giving up.
> 
> As an orange belt, this is mostly fixed.




I have even had a shihan tell me that a certain technique if you do it by the book your gonna get your head taken off lol ...I remember looking at him and he then said oh you had to learn it that way for the footwork and to get the principles down now you will learn to close it down as now you know the principles of how it works


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> If that's your understanding then it's either been very badly explained or you've misinterpreted...
> 
> Firstly, the only way I can see it taking 20 years to reach black belt is if you're either very very bad or you do like 10 lessons a year...
> 
> ...



Maybe a mix of.  I have seen some high belts not do walking stance well. (comment by the teacher not a observation of mine)



To clear this up(if it needs it), i didnt claim  what i thought of for grading people was not subject to the same argument and i didn't state any method you could think of grading people was not.       Maybe unclear wording but thats a theme of mine.       I put a confession in the brackets next to it saying it could still be used to hold back information or fast track you to make you think you are doing something well.





Also none of you are taking my 12th degree pink belt away from me!

Fair enough for the rest of it though.   Next post by me will be about punching. (more than likely...)


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

Rat said:


> Maybe a mix of. I have seen some high belts not do walking stance well. (comment by the teacher not a observation of mine)



To be perfectly frank, that's why we're saying "go to class."  Because I'd say unless you've been dedicated to an art for at least 20 years, you probably still need instruction in it.  I did Taekwondo 3 days a week for about 4 years as a kid, and 6 days a week for 5 years as an adult (well, 3-4 days a week for 1 year, and 6 days a week for the next 4).  So if you average that out, it's 5 days a week for 9 years.  And I definitely am still learning, and I definitely need instruction.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 20, 2018)

Question on punching exercises. 

Do cable machines work to practice punching?  I was thinking about it and have no idea if you could use them practice punching with or if they would be any good for it. 

Another one i have, i read somewhere that bench presses were good for building up punching strength and speed but to focus on doing more of a cardio workout with a weight you can lift fast and many times rather than a heavy weight you can lift less and slower.


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2018)

Rat said:


> Question on punching exercises.
> 
> Do cable machines work to practice punching?  I was thinking about it and have no idea if you could use them practice punching with or if they would be any good for it.
> 
> Another one i have, i read somewhere that bench presses were good for building up punching strength and speed but to focus on doing more of a cardio workout with a weight you can lift fast and many times rather than a heavy weight you can lift less and slower.



Diagonal situps and squats will help with your punch strength too.  The punch is as much from your core twisting and your foot pressing against the ground as it is from arm strength.

As you mentioned in your OP, there are a lot of different kinds of punches.  Chest and triceps (i.e. bench) will be good for a reverse punch.  A jab is going to be more in the triceps, and there's better ways to isolate that muscle than a bench.  Hooks will benefit from different chest muscles and biceps.  Uppercuts and underpunches will come more from the shoulder.  Backfists from a different part of the shoulder.  So different punches require different exercises.

If you want to hit harder, go for lower reps at higher weight.  If you want to last longer go for higher reps at lower weight.  If you want to go for speed, punch faster in practice.  

However, for any of that, actually training the punches is going to give you more benefit than any weightlifting will.

Doing the punch correctly will impart a much bigger percentage of your body's total strength into the punch
Doing the punch correctly will be a more efficient movement, making it easier to do over and over
Doing the punch correctly will be a more efficient movement, making it faster
Now, keep in mind that I'm not a physical training expert.  If you want expert advice, I'd ask someone who is an expert in that field.  But going to class will make your punches stronger, faster, and easier.


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## skribs (Jul 22, 2018)

@Rat 

There's another aspect to the "black belt is when you really learn to fight" that wasn't really covered earlier in the thread, although a lot of that is probably due to your focus on striking.  In my Hapkido class yesterday, the Master explained that we're learning all of the techniques right now, and after black belt we'll learn the counters to those techniques.  

In this class, I'm about half-way to black belt, and I've noticed a distinct difference in how people at each level fight when we do sparring (both in my own growth and in watching or sparring with others).


Beginners (white and yellow belts) tend to revert to specific techniques.  So if you grab them on the shoulder, they will do Technique #4 or Technique #27, which both deal with shoulder grabs.  If you grab them in a straight arm grab, they will pick between techniques #9, 13, 17, 22, or 23.  Because those techniques deal with a straight arm.  If anything goes different than the way it was drilled, they get thoroughly confused and don't know what to do.  For example, if they expect the person to land on their back, and the person lands on their stomach, they freeze.  Or, if you grab them in a way they haven't practiced (i.e. a choke, which we don't have a scenario for in the white belt), then they don't know what to do.

Beginners also don't really deal well with failure.  If a technique isn't working, they either put more muscle into it (which doesn't work, or even if it does work they get yelled at for doing the technique wrong), or they revert to Taekwondo and just punch or kick.

Also, beginners tend not to fight back in sparring.  They tend to treat it as a random situation drill.


Intermediates (purple, orange, green) tend to try to apply the technique based on principle.  For example, if someone grabs my left wrist with their right hand, I'll grab their hand with my left, and circle my left hand to grab their wrist and push down to shear the joint.  If they grab my sleeve up by my arm, same thing - grab the hand, and apply pressure.  Neck?  Same idea.  I've also got a better idea of what to do should the technique succeed, but the result be different than I expect (person falls the wrong way), because I've seen that fall enough times to know how to react to it.

When dealing with failure, I also have more tools to respond to what's going on, and I can at least try something else.  For example, if I can't bend the arm and make a gooseneck, I will straighten the arm and make an armbar.  Or at least try to.  I usually see how it SHOULD work, but I have trouble making it actually work.

In sparring, if someone leaves a glaring opening I will take advantage of it, but I don't have all the tools yet to be able to realistically counter what they're trying to do.


Advanced (blue, red) continue to apply techniques based on principle, and have a lot better idea of what to do when modifications are necessary.  As to failure - they fail less often in the first place because they've learned how to apply the principles much better, and they are much quicker to adapt to the failure of one technique and smoothly transition into another.  In sparring, if you do not apply the technique correctly, they are very quick to react to the failure and make you suffer for it.


Black belts...well, we have one black belt, and he's been a black belt for about 3 classes.  So we haven't seen much of that yet.  But from a small demonstration my Master gave yesterday, it seems like the black belt is a bit more proactive in countering techniques.  Where against a blue belt, if you have proper technique they shouldn't be able to offer much resistance, a black belt will actively counter your techniques.
I realize this is Hapkido, which is definitely NOT what I recommend for you (it is NOT a way to get fast results and you seem more interested in striking anyway).  But I hope it does help you to see how training progresses in martial arts, where you evolve from the basic building blocks to putting it all together.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 26, 2018)

skribs said:


> I realize this is Hapkido, which is definitely NOT what I recommend for you (it is NOT a way to get fast results and you seem more interested in striking anyway). But I hope it does help you to see how training progresses in martial arts, where you evolve from the basic building blocks to putting it all together.



Interesting and i do get it.   I think i just disagree with how most places teach it and thats just my viewpoint on the matter. Not that it doesnt work, it might just not be for me. 

I know its unrelated but i did look for Hapkido but i only found some weird prefix Hapkido which does five animal style kung fu forms.     Also i don't mind grappling, but im more of a stand up person, given my weight i think a balance between learning to grapple and strike would be great for me.    I haven't really given grappling a go, i dislike being man handled so i would have to be weened into it from the stand up throws and joint locks anyway.       (i understand its place and the need to learn it to be a complete fighter at least also the fact i dislike being man handled would probably boost confidence if i started doing Judo or something and getting used to be thrown around)


And totally unrelated, do you think looking at Karate would help someone s Taekwondo?  Or what ever their main predecessor style is.    I have asked this on another thread but figured why not here as well to get some clarification.  


Some people here might be pleased to know i ordered "a killing art" as well.


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## skribs (Jul 26, 2018)

Rat said:


> Interesting and i do get it.   I think i just disagree with how most places teach it and thats just my viewpoint on the matter. Not that it doesnt work, it might just not be for me.
> 
> I know its unrelated but i did look for Hapkido but i only found some weird prefix Hapkido which does five animal style kung fu forms.     Also i don't mind grappling, but im more of a stand up person, given my weight i think a balance between learning to grapple and strike would be great for me.    I haven't really given grappling a go, i dislike being man handled so i would have to be weened into it from the stand up throws and joint locks anyway.       (i understand its place and the need to learn it to be a complete fighter at least also the fact i dislike being man handled would probably boost confidence if i started doing Judo or something and getting used to be thrown around)
> 
> ...



Hapkido is standup.  It's standup grappling.  The goal is to take the other person down while you're still standing and then break their wrist or elbow against your knee.

The more you learn, the better you are as a martial artist.  It could be taking something similar like Taekwondo and Karate.  It could be branching out to something completely different like Taekwondo and Jiu-Jitsu.  It could be just continuing to train Taekwondo and hone your craft.

But you have to train.


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## now disabled (Jul 27, 2018)

Rat said:


> Some people here might be pleased to know i ordered "a killing art" as well.



You have ordered what?


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## now disabled (Jul 27, 2018)

Rat said:


> Interesting and i do get it.   I think i just disagree with how most places teach it and thats just my viewpoint on the matter. Not that it doesnt work, it might just not be for me.
> 
> I know its unrelated but i did look for Hapkido but i only found some weird prefix Hapkido which does five animal style kung fu forms.     Also i don't mind grappling, but im more of a stand up person, given my weight i think a balance between learning to grapple and strike would be great for me.    I haven't really given grappling a go, i dislike being man handled so i would have to be weened into it from the stand up throws and joint locks anyway.       (i understand its place and the need to learn it to be a complete fighter at least also the fact i dislike being man handled would probably boost confidence if i started doing Judo or something and getting used to be thrown around)
> 
> ...




Rat 

you want fast fast progress and that isn't gonna happen like you want it to. 

Where I see you have issues is the grading systems and my friend that is a fact of life any of the arts you mention have that and if you get into the grappling arts then your rise up the grades is going to be slower. 

I would stick with a striking art and cross train to fill any flaws you think are there. You have to train for a while before you do that.

It great that you are so keen etc and that you are obviously reading of here but do bear in mind that when guys on here are saying things are missing or flawed or whatever the term, they are coming at it from the viewpoint of years of training and time spent studying etc. 

Young man you are jumping around so much that in effect you are skimming and trying to pick and choose, that is fine it is really , after you get time in and a skill set to work from


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2018)

now disabled said:


> You have ordered what?



That TKD book.


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## now disabled (Jul 27, 2018)

Rat said:


> That TKD book.




Oh ok


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## dvcochran (Jul 27, 2018)

Rat said:


> Interesting and i do get it.   I think i just disagree with how most places teach it and thats just my viewpoint on the matter. Not that it doesnt work, it might just not be for me.
> 
> I know its unrelated but i did look for Hapkido but i only found some weird prefix Hapkido which does five animal style kung fu forms.     Also i don't mind grappling, but im more of a stand up person, given my weight i think a balance between learning to grapple and strike would be great for me.    I haven't really given grappling a go, i dislike being man handled so i would have to be weened into it from the stand up throws and joint locks anyway.       (i understand its place and the need to learn it to be a complete fighter at least also the fact i dislike being man handled would probably boost confidence if i started doing Judo or something and getting used to be thrown around)
> 
> ...


I have been involved in WTF TKD for some time and will be the first to admit that it has skewed the perception of TKD. However, I cannot stress enough how much it has to do with the instructor(s) or organization. Most TKD is not just kicking. I would say any school worth it's salt is not just kicking.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 9, 2018)

Time to dust off this thread again:

I have a question regarding vertical punching.    What do you aim with?    I want to make contact with my entire fist when i punch and i cant figure out to aim with the top knuckles or the second knuckle or the bottom three? 

Im trying to refine my technique.    (dont get started in the horizontal twisting one, thats been refined out of me, i never use it when i punch anymore or very rarely do)


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## pdg (Aug 10, 2018)

Rat said:


> Time to dust off this thread again:
> 
> I have a question regarding vertical punching.    What do you aim with?    I want to make contact with my entire fist when i punch and i cant figure out to aim with the top knuckles or the second knuckle or the bottom three?
> 
> Im trying to refine my technique.    (dont get started in the horizontal twisting one, thats been refined out of me, i never use it when i punch anymore or very rarely do)



First and second knuckles, the ones closest the thumb.

I broke my third (ring) metacarpal using the 'whole fist contact' idea...

I know people say to use the middle, ring and small knuckles, but I disagree on both a physiological and personal experience basis.


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## JR 137 (Aug 10, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I have been involved in WTF TKD for some time and will be the first to admit that it has skewed the perception of TKD. However, I cannot stress enough how much it has to do with the instructor(s) or organization. Most TKD is not just kicking. I would say any school worth it's salt is not just kicking.


I’ve said it a few times in the past, but now’s a great time to say it again...

My father and both of his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon back in the 60s and 70s.  They practiced the flashy jumping and spinning kicks in class, but those were always taught and emphasized as training agility and coordination, not self defense.  They sparred with minimal gear on, did continuous sparring, and did medium to heavy contact.  Hands and feet were treated as equally important.  Working out with my uncle back when I was a Kyokushin student here in the States, they seemed not that far apart at its core.  

About 15 years or so ago, my uncle got the urge to start training again.  He went to a local TKD school against my advice (I wasn’t anti-TKD, I was anti that school).  After a few months and when he got comfortable with being back, he was sparring and the teachers weren’t happy with his style of sparring.  They repeatedly said “why are you throwing punches? Punches don’t score points!”  His reply - “I’m not here to score points.”  It wasn’t competition classes this was being said in, it was every class.  He left a few months later when his contract was up.


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## dvcochran (Aug 10, 2018)

pdg said:


> First and second knuckles, the ones closest the thumb.
> 
> I broke my third (ring) metacarpal using the 'whole fist contact' idea...
> 
> I know people say to use the middle, ring and small knuckles, but I disagree on both a physiological and personal experience basis.


Been there, done that.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 10, 2018)

pdg said:


> First and second knuckles, the ones closest the thumb.
> 
> I broke my third (ring) metacarpal using the 'whole fist contact' idea...
> 
> I know people say to use the middle, ring and small knuckles, but I disagree on both a physiological and personal experience basis.



I can get behind using the middle finger, but lower seems like the bottom two knuckles will take all the impact.

I will give it a shot when i get a bag. (top knuckles) I will post results as i find them.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 10, 2018)

skribs said:


> Depends on the system.  BJJ has only 3 colors between white and black (blue, purple, brown).
> 
> At my school we say white/yellow is beginner, purple/orange is intermediate, and green/blue/red are advanced.


But at the same time (at least the BJJ I have experience with), they have like 5 stripes at each belt. Same idea/separation, just less 'belts'


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## skribs (Aug 10, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> But at the same time (at least the BJJ I have experience with), they have like 5 stripes at each belt. Same idea/separation, just less 'belts'



Yeah, and our green has 1 stripe, our blue and red have 2 stripes.

We also have intermediate ranks between degrees at my school.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 10, 2018)

skribs said:


> Yeah, and our green has 1 stripe, our blue and red have 2 stripes.
> 
> We also have intermediate ranks between degrees at my school.


So assuming you have 10 kyus, plus 5 stripes (1 green, 2 blue, 2 red), that's 15 'ranks'. If a school has white, blue, purple, brown, with 5 stripes each, that's 20 'ranks'. Each stripe in BJJ would be the equivalent of a kyu in some other systems.

In my first style, we had your standard set of belts (I think 9 colors), and each one had no stripe->1 stripe->2 stripe->next belt. I would consider a white belt with no stripes to be pretty close to a white belt with 2 stripes. In BJJ, if I saw a white belt with no stripes next to a white belt with 4/5 stripes (in each case right before next belt), I would assume a pretty big skill difference.


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## skribs (Aug 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> So assuming you have 10 kyus, plus 5 stripes (1 green, 2 blue, 2 red), that's 15 'ranks'. If a school has white, blue, purple, brown, with 5 stripes each, that's 20 'ranks'. Each stripe in BJJ would be the equivalent of a kyu in some other systems.
> 
> In my first style, we had your standard set of belts (I think 9 colors), and each one had no stripe->1 stripe->2 stripe->next belt. I would consider a white belt with no stripes to be pretty close to a white belt with 2 stripes. In BJJ, if I saw a white belt with no stripes next to a white belt with 4/5 stripes (in each case right before next belt), I would assume a pretty big skill difference.



School I'm at now has 12 keub ranks: White, Yellow, Purple, Orange, Green, Green I, Blue, Blue II, Blue II, Red, Red I, Red II.  After black belt you get gup ranks between the degrees.  Or as I call it, Black Belt 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, then 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, and 3.0.  I just got my 3rd Dan (as in, yesterday) and I have 4 gups to 4th dan.

School I was at as a kid had 28 keub ranks.  White, 3 stripes before yellow, 3 stripes before orange, and again 3 stripes each for purple, green, blue, red, and brown.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> School I'm at now has 12 keub ranks: White, Yellow, Purple, Orange, Green, Green I, Blue, Blue II, Blue II, Red, Red I, Red II.  After black belt you get gup ranks between the degrees.  Or as I call it, Black Belt 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, then 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, and 3.0.  I just got my 3rd Dan (as in, yesterday) and I have 4 gups to 4th dan.
> 
> School I was at as a kid had 28 keub ranks.  White, 3 stripes before yellow, 3 stripes before orange, and again 3 stripes each for purple, green, blue, red, and brown.


That second one fits with my first school, which had i think 27 'keub' (we didnt call it that, not TKD), ranks. Those stripes meant very little in terms of differentiating skill level.


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## now disabled (Aug 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> I can get behind using the middle finger, but lower seems like the bottom two knuckles will take all the impact.
> 
> I will give it a shot when i get a bag. (top knuckles) I will post results as i find them.




How are you at the moment training? 

Have you found a dojo that you like yet?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 11, 2018)

now disabled said:


> How are you at the moment training?
> 
> Have you found a dojo that you like yet?



waiting to go look at that Arnis place i posted in the arnis thread.


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## now disabled (Aug 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> waiting to go look at that Arnis place i posted in the arnis thread.



Ok 

so you have given up on TKD then?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 11, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ok
> 
> so you have given up on TKD then?



If find anything i like more than it, it will be put on the back bench.


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## now disabled (Aug 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> If find anything i like more than it, it will be put on the back bench.



I am not following you 

are you going to Arnis or TKD 

and at the mo then your not studying at all ?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 11, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I am not following you
> 
> are you going to Arnis or TKD
> 
> and at the mo then your not studying at all ?



I meant, if i find something else i will do that if not i will go back to TKD. 

And no i am not doing anything.


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## now disabled (Aug 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> I meant, if i find something else i will do that if not i will go back to TKD.
> 
> And no i am not doing anything.




Ok 

I would still suggest that you train as time stands still for no one


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## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2018)

Pick a place to train from here..... The U.K.’s Foremost Self Defence and Multi-Style Martial Arts Organisation
No excuses just train.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 11, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Pick a place to train from here..... The U.K.’s Foremost Self Defence and Multi-Style Martial Arts Organisation
> No excuses just train.



One of the places i was looking at is a member.   (plus there is very little people  with them near me anyay)    It needs to be good enough/fun enough to warrant the trip.


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## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2018)

Rat said:


> One of the places i was looking at is a member.   (plus there is very little people  with them near me anyay)    It needs to be good enough/fun enough to warrant the trip.




Are you always this arrogant? the instructors on that list are the best in the country, they may not find it worth their while teaching you. I wouldn't teach you, your cup is over brimming, it's needs to be empty.


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## now disabled (Aug 11, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Are you always this arrogant? the instructors on that list are the best in the country, they may not find it worth their while teaching you. I wouldn't teach you, your cup is over brimming, it's needs to be empty.




He just needs a KOTB


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## now disabled (Aug 11, 2018)

or a HDT


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 11, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Are you always this arrogant? the instructors on that list are the best in the country, they may not find it worth their while teaching you. I wouldn't teach you, your cup is over brimming, it's needs to be empty.



Its not arrogance, overtly stating all of the people registered with the group are the best seems arrogant in this situation.

I was refering to the clubs i found in traving distance of needing to be worth the trip i have to take to actually do anything with them.  If i felt like they were a terrible orginization i wouldnt look on their website to find some people near me to go and look at would i?     Nor would i consider visting the school(s).    

Granted, it was a open statement though and i can see how it can read in that way. 




now disabled said:


> or a HDT



Do i need to break out the acronym thread? (if these are even on it)


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## now disabled (Aug 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Do i need to break out the acronym thread? (if these are even on it)




No but I give ya a clue lol...................see when you hear the "D" of defend yourself do it less I fear you will experience HDT's many times lol


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> No but I give ya a clue lol...................see when you hear the "D" of defend yourself do it less I fear you will experience HDT's many times lol


Only thing I can think of is head trauma, google didn’t help out at all.


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## now disabled (Aug 12, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Only thing I can think of is head trauma, google didn’t help out at all.



Heavy dull thuds


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Heavy dull thuds



Oh, you mean like the 5 tenents of dodgeball? 

I actually had that done by someone for my guard a couple of times same with leaning forward.   I think i prefer that method of teaching as i quickly stopped leaning forward and kept my guard up more. (it was only taps with reminders or reminders)


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## now disabled (Aug 12, 2018)

Rat said:


> Oh, you mean like the 5 tenents of dodgeball?
> 
> I actually had that done by someone for my guard a couple of times same with leaning forward.   I think i prefer that method of teaching as i quickly stopped leaning forward and kept my guard up more. (it was only taps with reminders or reminders)




What the heck are the tenets of dodgeball ... that is a playground game I didn't think it had tenets but I guess I live and learn


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> What the heck are the tenets of dodgeball ... that is a playground game I didn't think it had tenets but I guess I live and learn



It's a joke. It's actually the "5 D's of Dodge ball." Dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge


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## now disabled (Aug 12, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a joke. It's actually the "5 D's of Dodge ball." Dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge




oh ok


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 13, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a joke. It's actually the "5 D's of Dodge ball." Dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge


I knew i mis wrote it, been ages since i watched that film.


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## skribs (Aug 13, 2018)

Rat said:


> One of the places i was looking at is a member.   (plus there is very little people  with them near me anyay)    It needs to be good enough/fun enough to warrant the trip.



Stop "looking at places" and go try them.  If you don't feel it's worth it, then don't go back.  Plain and simple.  Maybe one "wasted" trip, but at least you know whether or not you want to make the trip a lot.

But you have to go in expecting to be a student.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 13, 2018)

Getting back to the original question. We have 8 basic hand strikes. These are laid out for the 8 angles of attack and the striking ranges.

Jab /Reverse punch
Inside knife/hammer
Cross
Upper Cut/angled
Double Low strike
Reverse Low knife/hammer
Reverse mid knife/hammer
Reverse high knife/hammer

These strikes are then practiced with combos, using the 8 basic blocks and 8 basic kicks

These 24  Ki bon Tul (basic techniques) are the very first thing tested for... that and combo sets.

As stated, these are the very basic strikes for Kwon Bup


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