# What's the future of Wing Chun?



## geezer (Apr 5, 2015)

Lately traffic here on the WC forum seems to be really slowing down. Some of the other WC forums I used to frequent are virtually dead. Maybe there's a die-hard or two still posting, but there are no replies. --Well, so much for _forums._ Perhaps that's just a matter of people going to other types of social networking to share their interests.

On the other hand, I wonder if interest in WC, and TMA in general (especially for _adults_) is waning. I really can't judge by my own classes, since it's always been a small "under the radar" operation, but I do maintain a website and rent space at a gym with a good location, and yet haven't had anyone new walk in door ...or even _call _in a while. Heck, even if I were a crappy teacher, you'd expect more people walking in to check us out, even if they walked right back out! But like the forums, there's just no traffic.

Now my son is enrolled in a good TKD school run by a friend of mine. He has also offered Tai Chi, WC, and other adult programs. But, they all have dwindled to nothing. He still does a a good business teaching TKD to children and youth. Yet after decades of building his school, he only retains a few adults.

I suppose the really well known masters may be maintaining a solid following, but are their organizations actually growing? ...or just struggling to maintain students? What have you seen? Am I wrong, or is WC gradually dying out? And if so, why?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 5, 2015)

geezer said:


> there's just no traffic.


May be not enough "deep level" discussion". I still remember the subject "wrong Ben - use right Ben Shou to block right punch" was very hot and popular discussion. Of course the WC "power generation" method can be interested but it often end with argument instead. Also my "rhino guard" strategy evolved from the WC "center line theory" had generated some good discussion as well. But that's "WC principle used in general MA discussion" that none WC guys can participate too.



geezer said:


> is WC gradually dying out? And if so, why?


IMO, WC = fist meets face. Is it too violent?


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## Danny T (Apr 5, 2015)

Not sure about other schools or organizations, the Francis Fong Wing Chun organization and the FF Instructor Association is growing. Now only here in the U.S. but in Canada, and Europe also.
I have a group of approx. 60 within my school and have 3 small affiliate groups 12-15 each in other towns associated with me. We respect all other WC organizations and don't allow any knocking of the others in any manner. We also are open to other methods of training and we train vs a lot of other methods. Being of the mind that WC should be and is an adaptable method each practitioner will be different and once one has been trained each will be different in how they utilize and express their skills. From what I've experienced it is the strict adherence to a training method as application and a lack understanding of how to freely apply what one has learned in numerous situations and environments. I find when training with many from other organizations they are stuck in attempting to apply a move or position from the forms or from a drill in a fight situation without understanding the different dynamics. So people say WC people can't fight, WC sucks and it is true. Many WC people can't apply what they have.


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## Transk53 (Apr 5, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be not enough "deep level" discussion". I still remember the subject "wrong Ben - use right Ben Shou to block right punch" was very hot and popular discussion. Of course the WC "power generation" method can be interested but it often end with argument instead. Also my "rhino guard" strategy evolved from the WC "center line theory" had generated some good discussion as well. But that's "WC principle used in general MA discussion" that none WC guys can participate too.
> 
> 
> IMO, WC = fist meets face. Is it too violent?




I would think that is probably the perception. Popularization and all that.


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## yak sao (Apr 5, 2015)

Danny T said:


> many from other organizations they are stuck in attempting to apply a move or position from the forms or from a drill in a fight situation without understanding the different dynamics. So people say WC people can't fight, WC sucks and it is true. Many WC people can't apply what they have.



I see that so much...people wanting to do a one for one translation of the forms into fighting...they just don't get it.

As for what is the future of WC? back when I started training CMA (1981) kids were the exception. Class was made up almost entirely of adults. Anymore, at least in this area, it seems to be the domain of kids, with the adults being the exception.
Is it because of MMA? Is it because there has been so much bad MA taught out there that it's become a laughing stock?
One of my students has a brother who was jumped at a gas station and beat up. My student told him that he should study wing chun with him. His brother laughed at him and told him that "nobody does karate anymore"


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## mograph (Apr 5, 2015)

I see a lack of patience for learning any skill that does not offer some kind of return right away. I see this in both adults and teens. In a world where you can get anything quickly (on the internet, or in a purpose-designed app), why should anyone wait to to feel any gratification? In terms of martial arts, if some guy messes with me, why can't I run around the corner, get something, come back and knock the guy out? That's the time frame I'm talking about!

Of course, I don't feel that way; I'm a strong advocate of incremental growth and delayed gratification, and it took time to get there. And I love to build model kits ... but that's when I have the time. But I also do scientific research on the web and can't imagine the days when we had to go to the library and pore through bound journals. 

Anyway ... I lament the loss of patience, care and incremental gains as the normal way of acquiring skill or gratification, and I see WC and martial arts in general suffering as a result.


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## K-man (Apr 5, 2015)

geezer said:


> Lately traffic here on the WC forum seems to be really slowing down. Some of the other WC forums I used to frequent are virtually dead. Maybe there's a die-hard or two still posting, but there are no replies. --Well, so much for _forums._ Perhaps that's just a matter of people going to other types of social networking to share their interests.


Not sure about other forums but here it seems there are fewer people being bothered to post in the TMA areas and I can understand why.


geezer said:


> On the other hand, I wonder if interest in WC, and TMA in general (especially for _adults_) is waning. I really can't judge by my own classes, since it's always been a small "under the radar" operation, but I do maintain a website and rent space at a gym with a good location, and yet haven't had anyone new walk in door ...or even _call _in a while. Heck, even if I were a crappy teacher, you'd expect more people walking in to check us out, even if they walked right back out! But like the forums, there's just no traffic.


I don't think it's just WC. I haven't had a karate enquiry in a month yet I get several Krav enquires each week. 

Then, I don't take children. Several of the guys I know who specialise in kids have between 300 and 500 on their books and are making huge money, but what sort of training do you get with those numbers?


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## Drose427 (Apr 5, 2015)

I always hear about how "TMA's are on the decline" but i havent seen it at all in my area of Ohio or WV.

All the TMAs in my area get steady amounts of new students, both children and adults. Most quit after a few months but boxing/MMA gyms see the same thing.

People arent rushing to MMA gyms as much as people generalize or propaganda tells us, most "MMA Meatheads" will never step foot in a gym in their life, more will quit after only a momth or two.

On the same coin, people arent really shunning TMA's as much as people say. 

MMAs been huge for many years now and it hasnt affected many TMAs schools In the slightest


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## mograph (Apr 5, 2015)

Now, to be fair, people do want community. If they feel an affinity to the class, the school, it's more likely they'll come back. We're social animals.

... but they have to come in the door first.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 5, 2015)

geezer said:


> Lately traffic here on the WC forum seems to be really slowing down. Some of the other WC forums I used to frequent are virtually dead. Maybe there's a die-hard or two still posting, but there are no replies. --Well, so much for _forums._ Perhaps that's just a matter of people going to other types of social networking to share their interests.
> 
> On the other hand, I wonder if interest in WC, and TMA in general (especially for _adults_) is waning. I really can't judge by my own classes, since it's always been a small "under the radar" operation, but I do maintain a website and rent space at a gym with a good location, and yet haven't had anyone new walk in door ...or even _call _in a while. Heck, even if I were a crappy teacher, you'd expect more people walking in to check us out, even if they walked right back out! But like the forums, there's just no traffic.
> 
> ...


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Wing chun traffic has slowed down. But that is good IMO. There is much mismash and junk labelled as wing chun. God wing chunas long as there are some good teachers will remain  because wing chun properly taught is the real mcoy of kung fu. My kung fu siblings are not on chat lists for the most part. They keep on learning and developing their skills..Master  Fong's classes are doing well. His best students are doing well.
He has not created a chain store system.One goes to Tucson to learn. Some of sigung's other proteges like Lui Ming Fai in HK are doing well.
WSL's best students  and TST's best students are doing well. I would not judge wing chun by the waxing or waning of discussion on chat lists..


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 5, 2015)

I think with Ip Man 3 coming out we will see a quick serge of interest.


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## zuti car (Apr 5, 2015)

Developing necessary skills in TCMA require significant amount of time , not many people are ready to spend so much time in learning . Traditional values are changed and replaced with new values of the "modern" society where everything must be instantly ready for usage and must give results immediately . It is obvious growing popularity of so called "military" systems like Krav Maga , Kapap ect , they offer "instant" results , there is nothing you should think about , nothing to understand , they are attractive,often offer fire arms training and "special forces training ", have answers to all problems and questions. I see many TCMA  people also offer fire arms training and some other ******** , because market demands it . I don't see bright future for TCMA , at last not in the form they are practiced today


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## Vajramusti (Apr 5, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Developing necessary skills in TCMA require significant amount of time , not many people are ready to spend so much time in learning . Traditional values are changed and replaced with new values of the "modern" society where everything must be instantly ready for usage and must give results immediately . It is obvious growing popularity of so called "military" systems like Krav Maga , Kapap ect , they offer "instant" results , there is nothing you should think about , nothing to understand , they are attractive,often offer fire arms training and "special forces training ", have answers to all problems and questions. I see many TCMA  people also offer fire arms training and some other ******** , because market demands it . I don't see bright future for TCMA , at last not in the form they are practiced today


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Much is true in what you say. However, wiing chun  was never  a mass activity in the past. Ip Man's success gave the art a wider base.


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## geezer (Apr 6, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ... However, wing chun  was never  a mass activity in the past. Ip Man's success gave the art a wider base.


 
True that. Still, I'd like to see good WC spread and gain respect. After devoting a good portion of my life to this now, I'd like to see it continue on in the future. Someday, in my dotage, I don't want to hear my grandkids say, " Yeah, Grampa wasted his life doing that karate stuff that nobody does anymore".

 Nope. I want them to say, "Hey did you know that in his day Grampa was good at _Wing Chun!"_


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## geezer (Apr 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be not enough "deep level" discussion".  ..."WC principle used in general MA discussion" that non-WC guys can participate too.
> 
> IMO, WC = fist meets face.* Is it too violent?*


 
Naw, that's the best thing about WC!

One of the things that's great about this forum is just that. Most of us welcome input and questions from outside perspectives. For example John, your shuai chiao background adds a lot to the discussions.


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## PiedmontChun (Apr 6, 2015)

My local WT school is mostly adults , though of all age ranges. They are trying to build a seperate kid's program but for whatever reason it hasn't taken off yet. It seems to bring in a new adult student for every student who leaves due to job relocation / injury / etc, so neither growth nor decline. A lot of the new students are young though, still in college or recently independant, not married or kids yet, looking for an outlet or challenging fun thing. I see that as promising that they chose WT over Krav or whatever relatively mainstream thing there is 'down the street' for adults to choose from.
Many adults still think its peculiar to study an MA, those who know I do some kind of MA likely question it less due to the UFC popularity, if for no other reason. Outside my WT school, the only friends or people in my circle that do MA are an amateur MMA guy and a Krav guy.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 6, 2015)

geezer said:


> True that. Still, I'd like to see good WC spread and gain respect. After devoting a good portion of my life to this now, I'd like to see it continue on in the future. Someday, in my dotage, I don't want to hear my grandkids say, " Yeah, Grampa wasted his life doing that karate stuff that nobody does anymore".
> 
> Nope. I want them to say, "Hey did you know that in his day Grampa was good at _Wing Chun!"_


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Oldest grandson says that now, He has begun a once a week lesson with me. I dont know but hope that he will stick with it.


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## Eric_H (Apr 6, 2015)

geezer said:


> Lately traffic here on the WC forum seems to be really slowing down. Some of the other WC forums I used to frequent are virtually dead. Maybe there's a die-hard or two still posting, but there are no replies. --Well, so much for _forums._ Perhaps that's just a matter of people going to other types of social networking to share their interests.



For my own 2c, it's a matter of ROI. I don't get much of anything out of any of the online discussions I've had, nor do I care to participate much after I learned how often people use multiple fake accounts to push their own agendas. I find the practice distasteful. 



> is WC gradually dying out? And if so, why?



I'd say yes, because it doesn't really offer much outside of personal satisfaction. There's no career in it, no outlet for competition, no end game beyond maybe being a sifu if you wanted to. 

It's an art you can love, but it certainly ain't gonna love you back.


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## Shai Hulud (Apr 7, 2015)

_will _Wing Chun - I will Wing Chun tomorrow.
_will be _Wing Chun_ning - _Want to tag along? My telly's on the blip so I guess we will be _Wing Chunning_ all afternoon in preparation for that sash test coming up.
_
_


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## geezer (Apr 7, 2015)

and where I practice





Eric_H said:


> "....is WC gradually dying out? And if so, why?"
> 
> I'd say yes, because it doesn't really offer much outside of personal satisfaction. There's no career in it, no outlet for competition, no end game beyond maybe being a sifu if you wanted to.


 
Another thing. It's not particularly _cool_. It's not a sport or pastime that adults can talk about with a lot of people outside the MA community. In my experience, PiedmontChun is right. Many adults find such activities _peculiar_ especially compared with more conventional pastimes like tennis, golf and skiing, or activities that are currently in vogue such as the resurgance of interest in yoga.

That very word, "peculiar", brings back a memory of an incident at college when a group of students walked in to an empty common room in my dorm where I was practicing my kenpo katas. A cocky young woman who I barely knew from having seen around campus loudly exclaimed, "My, you are _peculiar!"._  Then she and her entourage went skipping off singing "Follow the Yellow Brick Road". The irony had me in stitches at the time.  Nevertheless, as people age, I find such narrow-minded views increasingly common.

So, I'm a bit more discrete about discussing my interest in WC these days ...and about where I practice. Unfortunately that doesn't do much to "spread the faith".


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## yak sao (Apr 7, 2015)

geezer said:


> Nevertheless, as people age, I find such narrow-minded views increasingly common.
> 
> So, I'm a bit more discrete about discussing my interest in WC these days ...and about where I practice. Unfortunately that doesn't do much to "spread the faith".



As I've gotten older I've found the same thing.
I'm reminded of an old Sam Elliot movie, _Lifeguard._
In the movie, Elliot plays a man in his late 30's, early 40's who had been a lifeguard on the same beach his whole life. He goes to a high school reunion and when he mentions to someone that he's still a lifeguard they give him that side ways look and "oh that's great".........it's kind of the same response I get from some when they find out I'm still training.


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## Callen (Apr 7, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wing chun traffic has slowed down. But that is good IMO. There is much mismash and junk labelled as wing chun. God wing chunas long as there are some good teachers will remain  because wing chun properly taught is the real mcoy of kung fu. My kung fu siblings are not on chat lists for the most part. They keep on learning and developing their skills..Master  Fong's classes are doing well. His best students are doing well.
> He has not created a chain store system.One goes to Tucson to learn. Some of sigung's other proteges like Lui Ming Fai in HK are doing well.
> WSL's best students  and TST's best students are doing well. I would not judge wing chun by the waxing or waning of discussion on chat lists..


My apologies for not posting on the forum more often. I mostly read and observe from somewhat of a distance. That said, I have to agree with the statement above. Particularly the part about not judging the future success of Wing Chun based on forums or social media in general. Community is important, but the truest WC practitioners are often very private in their journey. Those who train and learn for their own personal development will be more likely to outlast trends and popular influences. Wing Chun is much bigger than any of us. It will still be here long after we're gone...


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## yak sao (Apr 8, 2015)

Callen said:


> My apologies for not posting on the forum more often. I mostly read and observe from somewhat of a distance. That said, I have to agree with the statement above. Particularly the part about not judging the future success of Wing Chun based on forums or social media in general. Community is important, but the truest WC practitioners are often very private in their journey. Those who train and learn for their own personal development will be more likely to outlast trends and popular influences. Wing Chun is much bigger than any of us. It will still be here long after we're gone...




You should post more often


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## Vajramusti (Apr 8, 2015)

Callen said:


> My apologies for not posting on the forum more often. I mostly read and observe from somewhat of a distance. That said, I have to agree with the statement above. Particularly the part about not judging the future success of Wing Chun based on forums or social media in general. Community is important, but the truest WC practitioners are often very private in their journey. Those who train and learn for their own personal development will be more likely to outlast trends and popular influences. Wing Chun is much bigger than any of us. It will still be here long after we're gone...


-----

good post


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## PiedmontChun (Apr 8, 2015)

geezer said:


> and where I practice
> 
> Another thing. It's not particularly _cool_. It's not a sport or pastime that adults can talk about with a lot of people outside the MA community. In my experience, PiedmontChun is right. Many adults find such activities _peculiar_ especially compared with more conventional pastimes like tennis, golf and skiing, or activities that are currently in vogue such as the resurgance of interest in yoga.



Things definitely come and go in terms of being fashionable. Someone once asked a bodybuilder (possibly Arnold S., cant remember) why they devoted so much time and effort to bodybuilding; this was way back before it became more mainstream.  To paraphrase his response, it was that there was no shortcut to the end result earned, only hard work, so the accomplishment was reward enough and that no one could buy the same result, or take his accomplishment away from him. 
The weekends I spend fishing won't amount to anything other than just my own personal relaxation, but the time I invest in WT, or playing my music instruments of choice are skills developed ove time so with that comes some sense of accomplishment. I suppose someone could feel accomplishment at a sub-100 golf game or bowling a perfect bowling game, but it might not be the same linear work-to-reward ratio involved.

I can say it seems like most people in my generation (I'm 32) lack any real skill outside their jobs / education; and even in older generations the concept of 'accomplishment' is relegated mostly to financial / material success, which is a shame.


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## dlcox (Apr 8, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> Things definitely come and go in terms of being fashionable. Someone once asked a bodybuilder (possibly Arnold S., cant remember) why they devoted so much time and effort to bodybuilding; this was way back before it became more mainstream.  To paraphrase his response, it was that there was no shortcut to the end result earned, only hard work, so the accomplishment was reward enough and that no one could buy the same result, or take his accomplishment away from him.
> The weekends I spend fishing won't amount to anything other than just my own personal relaxation, but the time I invest in WT, or playing my music instruments of choice are skills developed ove time so with that comes some sense of accomplishment. I suppose someone could feel accomplishment at a sub-100 golf game or bowling a perfect bowling game, but it might not be the same linear work-to-reward ratio involved.
> 
> I can say it seems like most people in my generation (I'm 32) lack any real skill outside their jobs / education; and even in older generations the concept of 'accomplishment' is relegated mostly to financial / material success, which is a shame.


 
I practice not for recognition, money or admiration. I practice because I want to. For me it is a personal journey of self fulfillment. What I put into it is what I will get out of it. When I choose to teach it is for the same reasons. Many people start endeavors with aspirations of fame and glory, fall short and fizzle out. Those that continue to strive achieve the goals set forth, and some even manage to change their perspective and priorities through it. Traditional arts will continue on with those that truly care for what they have to offer beyond the stereotypical perceptions.


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## Jake104 (Apr 9, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> For my own 2c, it's a matter of ROI. I don't get much of anything out of any of the online discussions I've had, nor do I care to participate much after I learned how often people use multiple fake accounts to push their own agendas. I find the practice distasteful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what ROI is short for? But I definitely agree with your post Eric. Not much in it other than self gratification oops, I mean satisfaction. Wrong forum haha! Damn big words!


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## geezer (Apr 10, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Not sure what ROI is short for?



Return On Investment


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## Vajramusti (Apr 10, 2015)

There is no reliable written history of  history of wing chun. Opinions abound some more worthy of note than others. I do wing chun because 
I have found it to be a very well thought out system of defense and self development. I did not get into wing chun because of movies, stories or Bruce Lee.
Chance and very good luck and  living in Tucson when I did- got me started with Augustine Fong's wing chun. I have met my sigung Ho Kam ming
and learned from him too. And I have met several other top students of Master Ho- besides Fong sifu. who  was  with Ho for a very long time. And Master Ho was with Ip Man longer than anyone.And Ip Man is easily the most knowledgeable 20th century master. 

The transmission through the hands is the real history and when wisely analyzed  creates a reliable body of knowledge.

The Chan wah shun wing chun that IM learned does not explain the refinements of structure and footwork of IM- I test it empirically rather  than just taking him at his word- though that also is worthy of respect.

IM's wing chun is far different from YKS or his elder bro who went to Vietnam, and different from gu lo and has outgrown the crane and snake roots.

IM tested his wing chun, many of Master Ho's students have actually fought, Master Fong has fought and I have had my own tests-including with non wing chun folks.And I have rolled with other wing chun master including Wong Shon Leung, Tsui tsong tin,Victor Kan and Hawkins Cheung

I do respect other well developed systems and people who practice them.


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## Kwan Sau (Apr 11, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> I do wing chun because I have found it to be a very well thought out system of defense and self development.
> 
> I did not get into wing chun because of movies, stories or Bruce Lee.
> 
> The transmission through the hands is the real history and when wisely analyzed  creates a reliable body of knowledge.



I agree. Well stated Joy. Especially about the transmission through the hands.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 11, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> I agree. Well stated Joy. Especially about the transmission through the hands.


-------------------------


Thx Kwan Sao


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## Danny T (Apr 12, 2015)

The thing about all the martial arts is the individual.
It's not about who did it first or prior to you it is what is your skill and ability.
It's not about who you learned from it is about what you are able to do with what you learned.
Do you have skills that only work vs certain styles or in a particular environment? Do you have the skills and knowledge that will allow you to continue to learn and become better once your instructor is no longer available to you. Do you have the abilities to continue to learn as you have changed, as age and/or physical attributes change? Does your knowledge allow you to adapt to differing situations? There is no 'right' or 'wrong' there is only the consequence. Problem lies with the one who doesn't acknowledge the consequence or accept that they may have to change what was perceived as being good.


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 13, 2015)

Danny T said:


> ....
> From what I've experienced it is the strict adherence to a training method as application and a lack understanding of how to freely apply what one has learned in numerous situations and environments. I find when training with many from other organizations they are stuck in attempting to apply a move or position from the forms or from a drill in a fight situation without understanding the different dynamics. So people say WC people can't fight, WC sucks and it is true. Many WC people can't apply what they have.


|
Yet this is precisely the case with the poor performance of traditional karates, the TMAs in general....  I think the real problem is not the lack of interest in WC, but that to master WC to a level of proficiency is extremely challenging....
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Beyond the physical conditioning and the basic understanding of the physical techniques, there is a whole mental foundation that must be learned & developed.  With WC, this foundation is much harder to attain, the sophistication required very high, compared to the style of traditional karate I practice.
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Part of this mental foundation is learning how to apply the techniques, not just take a page from the WC textbook & paste it onto a situation.  My successful track record in competitions is partly because my opponents do just that, the latter.  No matter how physically good one's technique is, the inability to synthesize is lacking in a majority of the karate opponents I face.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 13, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Yet this is precisely the case with the poor performance of traditional karates, the TMAs in general....  I think the real problem is not the lack of interest in WC, but that to master WC to a level of proficiency is extremely challenging....
> |
> Beyond the physical conditioning and the basic understanding of the physical techniques, there is a whole mental foundation that must be learned & developed.  With WC, this foundation is much harder to attain, the sophistication required very high, compared to the style of traditional karate I practice.
> ...


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Good post IMO. Truly good wing chun peope IMO are few and far between. Many people jump from one stew bowl to another. A friend of mine who I used to work out and spar with was a direct student of Dr Otsuka of wado ryu.  He knew how to apply better than most wado ryu [rople that I have see. Learning good wing chun and applying it is indeed challenging. That challenge keeps me climbing the wing chun mountain.


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 14, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Good post IMO. Truly good wing chun peope IMO are few and far between. Many people jump from one stew bowl to another. A friend of mine who I used to work out and spar with was a direct student of Dr Otsuka of wado ryu.  He knew how to apply better than most wado ryu [rople that I have see. Learning good wing chun and applying it is indeed challenging. That challenge keeps me climbing the wing chun mountain.


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The whole concept of Wing Chun is developing a kind of latent power within, from inside.  Then applying that power in a highly articulate fashion from the mind.  This is very sophisticated, very sophisticated traditional martial arts.
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You see the YT vids pointing out the weaknesses in Wing Chun.  Virtually all these vids have for one, no concept of internal power.  Secondly, they have no concept of the mental dimension of traditional martial arts.  These vids propose a physical contest as the sole dimension, with sneaky-clever tactics as the 'mental' side.
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These vids do point out the formidable attacks that boxing opponents can launch, etc.  The design of WC is more than sufficient to handle such.   HOW?
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The YT critiques of WC come up with all sorts of supposed faults based on their PHYSICAL understanding of WC.  The same criticisms are launched against traditional karate's.  Two I've seen say (1) the Wing Chun guard of outstretched arms can't stop a boxer from striking around the guard and into the face; (2) Wing Chun guard doesn't protect when 'closing the distance,' WC itself has no strategy for closing-the-distance.
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Both of these FAULTS, presume that the WC practitioner is static, the guard is held static; or that the guard moves to commit a block and stays commit-ed.  Why I like traditional karate is that from day one, you learn to move from the guard into technique.  Then from that technique into another technique.  There is nothing 'static' or stop-committed about traditional karate.
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IMHO, WC does what traditional karate does ever better.  The concept of holding your guard hard static while a boxer strikes around that guard is completely incompetent karate, and absolutely preposterous in WC.  The concept of committing to a block then freezing or failing to think, focus on the next move, the next technique--is generally incompetent by traditional karate, again absolutely preposterous in WC.
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The whole closing-the-distance stratagem so constantly discussed in MMA as 'problematic' is completely silly from a TMA standpoint.  Simply one or both approach into range where there is physical danger.  You must be prepared to respond to the aggression of your opponent.
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The reason MMA has such big problem with closing-the-distance is that MMA competitors, the sport fighting group as a whole, isn't really prepared to fend off the assailant.  They really aren't prepared to defend against the attack.  They really don't know how to proceed against unplanned aggression.  Everything is a reaction, hoping your's is better, hoping they get out of the way, then you miss or get fooled and your reactions fail to keep pace.  This is the opposite of WC's high-level principles.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 14, 2015)

Another sensible post.


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 14, 2015)

MY DEFEAT OF THE KICKBOXER OPPONENT @ DOJO:
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I demonstrated the traditional karate [TMA]  principles of sequential movement, taught in all kata beginning with Taikyoku set.  Of course all the other foundational karate skills in the traditional curriculum were behind this.
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On KB's feint of high round kicks meant to intimidate.  The response to feints is the mental discipline to distinguish the feint from an imminently harmful technique.  There's no need to move until the assailant's technique is certain to be harmful.  This ability is discussed @ the 'mental clarity' thread.
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KICKBOXER opponent then steps forward, throws Right Cross past my outstretched Left guard hand & into my face.  Just like the YT videos claiming WC guard is ineffective.  RESPONSE: As KB opponent steps in & punches, I STEP IN &BLOCK with Rear (Right) guard hand.  Left Guard hand pulled to chamber.
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Boxer opponents say my Left hand low @ chamber, Right Guard hand now committed in block across my body against his Straight Right Cross--I'm committed and vulnerable to his Left to my face.  If I'm a static, 1-dimensional karate fighter, they would be right.  Traditional  karate is anything but static or 1-dimensional.
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The truth is that the KB's strong Right Cross has left him exposed.  My Right Guard hand is perfectly positioned to capitalize on that exposure.  Moreover, my Right Guard Hand is perfectly positioned to defend his potential Follow-on Left, whether it was throw in immediate combo, or as a dedicated 1-2 step punch combo.  The key is to have the 'mental clarity' to apply your kihon karate technique.
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WC employs the same mental dynamic as traditional karate, yet on a much higher level of mental clarity & technique, if you will.  WC has got to be one of the most dynamic striking arts of all time.
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These critics of WC couldn't get traditional karate right.  How do they figure they can even begin to fathom WC?


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 14, 2015)

WHAT DO GUARD HANDS DO IN TRADITIONAL KARATE / WC?
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This whole notion of traditional karate ineffective against good boxers is nonsense.  These boxers simply punch through the 'openings' in the outstretched guard.  I agree that the outstretched karate guard has 'openings.'
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Because the arm is not a metal shield like in Roman days, there has to be openings.  We all have openings in any guard.  The purpose of the traditional karate guard is not as an automatic shield, the purpose is to put the hands in a position to launch effective technique--both offensive & defensive.  Hence, the purpose of the guard is to change as the opponent changes.
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In my illustration above, the outstretched Left guard hand stays static on the KB's feinting maneuver.  There's no need to change since there is no danger.  Once danger becomes apparent from the speeding Right Cross, then the guard hands move.  I respond by bringing the outstretched Left Guard Hand back to chamber, the Right Guard Hand moves ahead to Block.  Essentially the general postilion of the guard hands SWITCH upon the incoming punch.
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The shield is not in the form of the guard, at least not the majority.   The shield is in the ability to shift, move the arms & hands to create a shield comprised of technique in RESPONSE to the assault.  The underlying driver of this ability is strong MENTAL DISCIPLINE. _ Extend this karate example to the dynamic hands of WC and the position that the WC guard is full of holes against the boxer--is shown completely misunderstood, misstated & misapplied._


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## r'n'r (Apr 21, 2015)

I can talk about other things on forums: strength training, nutrition,...

But martial arts, I think, are best discussed in person, hands on.


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## antaeus (May 1, 2015)

There has been quite a proliferation of blogs and websites.

When I started there were only a few - now there a more than I can count.  

And many forum discussions are not that informative and many devolve into ***** sessions or MA vs TMA arguments.  Not here necessarily, but in forums in general.  It is too bad.  Also, I think that there is so much information out there (books, videos, websites) that these are satisfying the impulse.

Our school has been growing quite a bit (of course, this is going from 4 or 5 to 10 to 15!).


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## wingchunguy (May 1, 2015)

geezer said:


> Lately traffic here on the WC forum seems to be really slowing down. Some of the other WC forums I used to frequent are virtually dead. Maybe there's a die-hard or two still posting, but there are no replies. --Well, so much for _forums._ Perhaps that's just a matter of people going to other types of social networking to share their interests.
> 
> On the other hand, I wonder if interest in WC, and TMA in general (especially for _adults_) is waning. I really can't judge by my own classes, since it's always been a small "under the radar" operation, but I do maintain a website and rent space at a gym with a good location, and yet haven't had anyone new walk in door ...or even _call _in a while. Heck, even if I were a crappy teacher, you'd expect more people walking in to check us out, even if they walked right back out! But like the forums, there's just no traffic.
> 
> ...


Wing chun is not dying, not at all. It's just that the MMA is so popular, it seems that way. For all of you out there, be careful when choosing a school. Make sure it is REAL traditional! Check the lineage. If it is Moy Yat or ESPECIALLY Leung Ting, the world's biggest fraud, FIND ANOTHER SCHOOL!!


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## geezer (May 1, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> Wing chun is not dying, not at all. It's just that the MMA is so popular, it seems that way. For all of you out there, be careful when choosing a school. Make sure it is REAL traditional! Check the lineage. If it is Moy Yat or ESPECIALLY Leung Ting, the world's biggest fraud, FIND ANOTHER SCHOOL!!


 
"Fraud busting" is against the rules on this forum. If you want to insult people and try to start fights, you are in the wrong place. _FIND ANOTHER FORUM!!_


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## Marnetmar (May 1, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> Wing chun is not dying, not at all. It's just that the MMA is so popular, it seems that way. For all of you out there, be careful when choosing a school. Make sure it is REAL traditional! Check the lineage. If it is Moy Yat or ESPECIALLY Leung Ting, the world's biggest fraud, FIND ANOTHER SCHOOL!!



Sup William


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## zuti car (May 1, 2015)

geezer said:


> "Fraud busting" is against the rules on this forum. If you want to insult people and try to start fights, you are in the wrong place. _FIND ANOTHER FORUM!!_


Or open a special thread for religious fanatics ?


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## dungeonworks (May 2, 2015)

Hello all, long time no post here.  I am going to get flamed to hell for saying this.  These are my views on Wing Chun and why it and  _*most*_ TMA's are drying up.  As for why the online WC community is drying up?  There are only so many times you can stomach dialog with WIng Chun zealots before it gets really boring...as do the rehashed and repeated questions on EVERY one of those forums.


Too stuck in the old ways that do not apply to the modern world, not in fighting only but to the appeal of the masses you're trying to get into the style.  Lineage is great for historical values, but is it good for evolution?  Wing Chun school in my present localtiy wants permission from my old Sifu for him to train me.  WHAAAAAT????  I live in present day America, not 17th century China! LOL

Not enough exposure and lack of understanding of what the potential students are seeing.  Think about it.  An onlooker checks out a Wing Chun school/class and sees them doing chisau, a martial art regarded by most of it's practitioners as a "Be all, end all" self defense system.  What would you think seeing this?  It looks nothing like fighting in any sense of the word to a potential student.
In many places, Wing Chun schools are underground and impossible to find.  When you do, they appear more like the back alley of a restaurant in an old Kung Fu flick.  

Does the public even know what Wing Chun is?  How can they?  The 1970's are 40+ years removed from our collective conscious, as is the Deadly Hands of Kung Fu craze back then.  Wing Chun is used in action movies and maybe a few YouTube videos.  Even the Yip Man movies are based in fantasy....unrealistic and outlandish fantasy.  Some of you wonder why and diss the fact MMA is so popular.  Could it be because it is on TV most nights of the week?  Could it be that there are local shows going on nearly every weekend and people you know compete in them for fun and exploration?  Maybe.  I believe so.
Reality Based Self Defense systems (RBSD's) such as Krav Maga and the like give the student faster attained useable results in a modern, more palatable environment.  They are often taught by people with experience in pressured situations such as law enforcement and military.  Heck, many of these RBSD's have influence from Wing Chun.


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## Kwan Sau (May 2, 2015)

dungeonworks said:


> Too stuck in the old ways that do not apply to the modern world, not in fighting only but to the appeal of the masses you're trying to get into the style.  Lineage is great for historical values, but is it good for evolution?  Wing Chun school in my present localtiy wants permission from my old Sifu for him to train me.  WHAAAAAT????  I live in present day America, not 17th century China!



Interesting


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## geezer (May 2, 2015)

Well, _dungeonworks_, I can't say you are completely wrong. Some things, like (#2 above) i.e. the odd appearance of chi-sau to prospective students, and the like, were just as true even some 36 years ago when I first saw chi sau being practiced around '79.

As far as the _back alley of a Chinese restaurant_ thing goes, that was precisely one of the first places I went to spar and learn back around '82. I hung out with a couple of young Chinese guys and we'd meet with their sifu, a guy named Michael Leung at his King Wah restaurant down in the barrio at Central and Southern. At 11:00pm on Saturday nights Michael would close the restaurant and bring out all the left-over food. We'd eat and then all go out back by the dumpsters and test each other. Actually, I tended to hang back since these boys used to get very physical. Other nights we'd take off to the old _Westdale Theatre _which would run a double-feature of English subtitled Chinese Kung-fu movies after midnight. I was one of about three _gwailo_ in the place.

Maybe I'm just getting old (nearly 60 now) but _those were the days, man! _So if that's what's wrong with Wing Chun, I don't know what to say. Of course I'd like a few more students and a decently equipped gym, but personally, if it were an "either-or" choice, I'd rather follow in that non-commercial tradition and let the art drift back into obscurity than go to a big, fancy and very commercial school.  Others can do whatever suits them.


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## Kwan Sau (May 2, 2015)

Yeah, I kind of dig #3. Back-alleys, backyards, basements, garages.... IMO nothing wrong with this at all.


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## geezer (May 2, 2015)

Yeah. Joy has one of the coolest garage kwoons you'll ever see. I just rent space at a boxing gym and teach at a park on Saturdays. How many of the rest of you train or teach in a similar "beneath the radar" environment?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2015)

dungeonworks said:


> In many places, Wing Chun schools are underground and impossible to find.  When you do, they appear more like the back alley of a restaurant in an old Kung Fu flick.


The best way to promote CMA is the school environment. If it's part of the school's informal class, not only it can reach to a large amount of students at their right age group, it also will give the CMA a positive reputation if it belongs to a reputable high school or university such as the 建国 Jian Gou High school in Taiwan, or the MIT in US.


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## Kwan Sau (May 3, 2015)

geezer said:


> How many of the rest of you train or teach in a similar "beneath the radar" environment?



I do! I teach out of my garage. Love it. Zero commute. No overheard costs. Keeps class size small. Quality over quantity, etc. Have a large backyard if/when more open spaces are needed. Most importantly, students love it also.
I do however always tell prospective students about the training environment beforehand. I want them to know up front that there are commercial kwoons nearby if that is what their after. I also encourage them to go and check out all the local training options/locations before making the trip to my humble garage.


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## zuti car (May 3, 2015)

geezer said:


> How many of the rest of you train or teach in a similar "beneath the radar" environment?


Most of Taiwanese teachers teach in public parks . I also work with couple of friends in a park near my apartment building .


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## Danny T (May 3, 2015)

How many go out to other clubs, schools, gyms, groups etc. and train or spar. Or do you just train and work out within your own group? The future of wc as other systems is one must play vs other methods. Not just pretend but to seek open minded groups and work your skills vs their's.


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## dungeonworks (May 3, 2015)

geezer said:


> Well, _dungeonworks_, I can't say you are completely wrong. Some things, like (#2 above) i.e. the odd appearance of chi-sau to prospective students, and the like, were just as true even some 36 years ago when I first saw chi sau being practiced around '79.
> 
> As far as the _back alley of a Chinese restaurant_ thing goes, that was precisely one of the first places I went to spar and learn back around '82. I hung out with a couple of young Chinese guys and we'd meet with their sifu, a guy named Michael Leung at his King Wah restaurant down in the barrio at Central and Southern. At 11:00pm on Saturday nights Michael would close the restaurant and bring out all the left-over food. We'd eat and then all go out back by the dumpsters and test each other. Actually, I tended to hang back since these boys used to get very physical. Other nights we'd take off to the old _Westdale Theatre _which would run a double-feature of English subtitled Chinese Kung-fu movies after midnight. I was one of about three _gwailo_ in the place.
> 
> Maybe I'm just getting old (nearly 60 now) but _those were the days, man! _So if that's what's wrong with Wing Chun, I don't know what to say. Of course I'd like a few more students and a decently equipped gym, but personally, if it were an "either-or" choice, I'd rather follow in that non-commercial tradition and let the art drift back into obscurity than go to a big, fancy and very commercial school.  Others can do whatever suits them.





Geezer, I was mainly responding to this part of your original post of this thread.




geezer said:


> On the other hand, I wonder if interest in WC, and TMA in general (especially for _adults_) is waning. I really can't judge by my own classes, since it's always been a small "under the radar" operation, but I do maintain a website and rent space at a gym with a good location, and yet haven't had anyone new walk in door ...or even _call _in a while. Heck, even if I were a crappy teacher, you'd expect more people walking in to check us out, even if they walked right back out! But like the forums, there's just no traffic.



I love the style of WIng Chun.  I tried to continue training after I moved away from my original Sifu (You personally know who he is and I don't much like to name drop on the net).  I haven't trained with him in several years now and live too far from there to continue.  What very little Wing Chun I have found out in my new locality is far from what he offered and quite off putting really.  There are several good JKD schools around but that is not the angle I want for Wing Chun.  I have trained in JKD and really liked it but it is not Wing Chun.  The couple years I had at the old place has helped me more with other styles I have done since and I respect the style itself.  I miss it dearly but the guy most visible in my area does not interest me.  I will leave that there and say no more than I have on that.  My post was simply my observation from where I am at.


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## geezer (May 3, 2015)

dungeonworks said:


> Geezer, I was mainly responding to this part of your original post of this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hear you. A lot of us are in similar positions. My solution has been to try to keep a group going so we have enough interest to bring in somebody from our system to train with, "seminar style" or so that I can afford to travel and upgrade my skills without switching to another branch that doesn't appeal to me as much.

_Organizational politics_ are the biggest (and stupiest) barrier to making this work.  For example, there's a guy teaching WT at the TKD school my son attends who has the same rank that I hold. My old sifu is his si-gung. If we could get together and train, that would be awesome. But when our association split about 8 years back, he went with one faction, and I went with the other. Now, he's not allowed to have anything to do with me. So when our paths cross at the TKD school, we smile politely and talk about the weather or our jobs (we are both teachers) when _we should be setting up training time together. _


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## dungeonworks (May 3, 2015)

geezer said:


> I hear you. A lot of us are in similar positions. My solution has been to try to keep a group going so we have enough interest to bring in somebody from our system to train with, "seminar style" or so that I can afford to travel and upgrade my skills without switching to another branch that doesn't appeal to me as much.
> 
> _Organizational politics_ are the biggest (and stupiest) barrier to making this work.  For example, there's a guy teaching WT at the TKD school my son attends who has the same rank that I hold. My old sifu is his si-gung. If we could get together and train, that would be awesome. But when our association split about 8 years back, he went with one faction, and I went with the other. Now, he's not allowed to have anything to do with me. So when our paths cross at the TKD school, we smile politely and talk about the weather or our jobs (we are both teachers) when _we should be setting up training time together. _




That is too bad.  I wish Wing Chun could figure out a way to divert from this closed door politics and create a more open doored association of Kwoons.  Problem is, as is in just about ANY and EVERY form of art, trade, union, or association is that the people in charge of these small groups like it the way it is for their own ego stroke or profit.  I wish their was a way to unite and proliferate Wing Chun without losing individual identity such as Tae Kwon Do and the Okinawan Karate styles have.  I am in no way condoning that Sifu's submit to uniformity, just unite for the greater good and growth of the art and get the art of Wing Chun into the collective minds of Joe and Mary Public.  This is where styles like MMA and Krav Maga have shined.  Don't get me wrong, Krav has serious political issues of their own, but the art is not hard to find in nearly all areas of the USA...and Krav has borrowed heavily from Wing Chun in theory (as have several RBSD styles).  Here in Michigan, their are probably less than 8 Wing Chun kwoons publicly available.  That is a travesty for such a great art.


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## zuti car (May 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> How many go out to other clubs, schools, gyms, groups etc. and train or spar. Or do you just train and work out within your own group? The future of wc as other systems is one must play vs other methods. Not just pretend but to seek open minded groups and work your skills vs their's.


People come to me , they want to try white guy and sometimes things are not so "open minded " , I had to knock out an idiot who insisted to fight with me on my last crane practice .


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## geezer (May 4, 2015)

Dang. You gotta get somebody around to take videos!


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## zuti car (May 4, 2015)

geezer said:


> Dang. You gotta get somebody around to take videos!


No videos , without videos no one can prove anything and I can't be kicked out Taiwan . I really hate violence , I had it enough for 3 life times and after the war I keep my self from any conflict situations . I usually tell people they are better or let them "win" in chi sao because if I enter the combat mode I loose control and than hurt people seriously . Couple of days ago idiot just didn't want to stop , he thought I was afraid when I told him he is way better than me and to leave things there ,I even wanted to leave but he blocked my way and grabbed me , next thing i remember he was on the floor and I was wrestling with couple of people who obviously tried to separate me from that man .


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## Callen (May 4, 2015)

geezer said:


> I hear you. A lot of us are in similar positions. My solution has been to try to keep a group going so we have enough interest to bring in somebody from our system to train with, "seminar style" or so that I can afford to travel and upgrade my skills without switching to another branch that doesn't appeal to me as much.



That's a great solution. My group hosts seminars with different Sifus for anyone who wishes to learn, regardless of lineage. There are numerous seminars that welcome all practitioners.



geezer said:


> _Organizational politics_ are the biggest (and stupiest) barrier to making this work. For example, there's a guy teaching WT at the TKD school my son attends who has the same rank that I hold. My old sifu is his si-gung. If we could get together and train, that would be awesome. But when our association split about 8 years back, he went with one faction, and I went with the other. Now, he's not allowed to have anything to do with me. So when our paths cross at the TKD school, we smile politely and talk about the weather or our jobs (we are both teachers) when _we should be setting up training time together._



That's a shame. Some WC/WT organizations are more political than others. Don't play the game. If you want to train with him, the two of you should rise above the politics and get together anyway.


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