# I will be performing Chil-Sung E Lo!



## Lynne (Sep 14, 2007)

Knock me over with a feather.  As an 8th gup, I thought I'd be performing Pyong Ahn Cho Dan in the October competition (Central NY Classic).  I just found out last night I will be peforming Chil-Sung E Lo (Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung).  I just began learning it last night, Thursday night.

Although a few moves were unfamiliar to me, the foot pattern and arm movements are not hard.

But...I am freaking a little.  Gee.  The movements take a lot of control - I felt awkward just doing the front kicks.  I want to be rooted and I want to flow and I want to explode when I'm supposed to.  Also, the breathing was a challenge.  The breathing, at least for this beginner, is not as easy as it looks.  

I look forward to the challenge of learning the new Chil-Sung form (three new forms, actually, at once is a little mind-boggling - I am flowing much better with Pyong Ahn Cho Dan). It's exciting to do something new and that's a bit difficult, that really takes some concentration.

I wonder how well I can learn this form in three weeks.  I want to have good presence and feel very comfortable with the form.  I wonder how well my muscle memory will engage?


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 14, 2007)

For me it's odd that you are being told what kata to perform and even odder that it's a new one to you. For my first few competitions I did the first kata I learned Pinan Nidan. My instructor at the time told me and I agreed with her that it's better to do a 'simpler' kata well than struggle to do a harder kata especially if it's not appropriate to your grade. I've seen quite a few lower grades doing Naihanchi thinking they will get points for an advanced kata whereas the winners were the ones who did the lower katas very well. The classes were in grades which is fair.


Lynne I'm sure you will do very well, remember to breathe!! Walk onto to the mat with your head high, shoulders back as if you mean business. It's not arrogance it's confidence and if you can radiate it even if you don't feel it you're more than half way there! Loud kihaps will help you as well, it helps release the tension in you. Head movements are important but often forgotten, if you make a mistake carry on and don't change the expression on your face! There's always a slight chance the judges won't notice lol! I always approached the kata in the same frame of mind as the kumite, aggressively!


----------



## Lynne (Sep 14, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> For me it's odd that you are being told what kata to perform and even odder that it's a new one to you. For my first few competitions I did the first kata I learned Pinan Nidan. My instructor at the time told me and I agreed with her that it's better to do a 'simpler' kata well than struggle to do a harder kata especially if it's not appropriate to your grade. I've seen quite a few lower grades doing Naihanchi thinking they will get points for an advanced kata whereas the winners were the ones who did the lower katas very well. The classes were in grades which is fair.
> 
> 
> Lynne I'm sure you will do very well, remember to breathe!! Walk onto to the mat with your head high, shoulders back as if you mean business. It's not arrogance it's confidence and if you can radiate it even if you don't feel it you're more than half way there! Loud kihaps will help you as well, it helps release the tension in you. Head movements are important but often forgotten, if you make a mistake carry on and don't change the expression on your face! There's always a slight chance the judges won't notice lol! I always approached the kata in the same frame of mind as the kumite, aggressively!


Thanks for the tips, Tez.  I've learned so much at this forum the last few days.  As a beginner, I couldn't see the forest for the trees.  I'd totally overlooked presence because I was focusing on execution of movements.  I've been concentrating on presence the last few days and my forms are betters in all of the elements.  Sort of like a mind over matter thing I guess.  It's all coming together much better.

The aggressiveness and explosiveness is happening a little more everyday.  I've come a long way in four and a half months.  My blocks and punches are much more dynamic/forceful and my stances are a lot more rooted.  The fun thing for me is that we never stop improving, that there is always room for improvement of our technique.

I believe it's just Black Belt Club members who are asked to do the higher forms.  We are expected to work harder.  We get challenged more.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 14, 2007)

I was told as a white belt that in kata comps this was the time to legitimately show off! I don't know if you have ever seen a game of Rugby Union when the New Zealand team the All Blacks are playing? They do a Haka, a war dance before they start to intimidate the opposition, it is quite scary actually. When I was competing we always had the kata first then the kumite so I always told myself that my kata was like a war dance, I would do it so well my fighting opponents would be put off!

Incidentally, I was told and I believe it that people who do kata well also make very good fighters!


----------



## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 14, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I've seen quite a few lower grades doing Naihanchi thinking they will get points for an advanced kata whereas the winners were the ones who did the lower katas very well.



Well really, doing a naihanchi / keema hyung at a forms competition is a bad idea anyway. They have great application and purpose, but they're hardly flashy and half as short as basically any other hyung. Which is why red belts in the ITF usually do palche deh in tournaments until they master sip soo as cho dans (and even then sometimes they'll prefer palche deh). 

Good luck, Lynne. Wish I could help you on the form, but I dunno it even as much as you do.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 15, 2007)

Tez3 - I'm unable to rep you right now, but that was an AWESOME suggestion.  The All Blacks Haka is definitely the type of mindset you need for part of this hyung.  The wehgung or physical aspect of this hyung needs to be emphasized with the type of crisp ferocity seen in the haka.

In the nehgung parts, you need to turn a switch and shut that energy down, immediately calming your mind until at the very end, you explode again starting with a monumental kihap at the end of the eye with the punch that follows the last kick.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Tez3 - I'm unable to rep you right now, but that was an AWESOME suggestion. The All Blacks Haka is definitely the type of mindset you need for part of this hyung. The wehgung or physical aspect of this hyung needs to be emphasized with the type of crisp ferocity seen in the haka.
> 
> In the nehgung parts, you need to turn a switch and shut that energy down, immediately calming your mind until at the very end, you explode again starting with a monumental kihap at the end of the eye with the punch that follows the last kick.


 
Thank you! Just watched the All Blacks demolish Portugal in the World Cup. they look truly ferocious when doing the Haka! The All Blacks probably more than any other team apart from the other Polynesians remind us they are warriors and I think this is the thing _we_ should remind ourselves about hyungs and katas, it's not dancing or going through the movements it's fighting! In class we can go through the Bunkai and work on that, competitions are different in that it's about appearance, you are the warrior out there showing how deadly your moves are! Sounds corny I know but it gets you into the mindset of the performance. It's also for this reason I believe you should pick a kata that you are very familiar with that you can literally do in your sleep, the moves should flow and ebb from your body as if it's second nature. Every nuance of the kata should be there to be seen, if the kata calls for tension in the body it should be that of muscles tensed for action not stressed as if you needed the toilet and can't find one! The relaxed parts should be the relaxation of waiting to move rather than slumped down looking as if you don't care much.

Can you guess I love performing kata/hyungs ( I don't mind which I'll learn anyones!)

Has anyone tried doing Kee Cho Hyung Il Bo with four people?  It's great fun. Stand four people in the middle of the mats, in a square with their backs to each other, shoulders just touching. At the command they do the hyung in unison, try to watch from a bit of a distance and height. It works with the Kee cho Hyung Ee Bo as well and Sam Bo to a lesser extent.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 16, 2007)

I just finished watching the All Black Haka clips.  What a spirit.  I think I'm speechless.  I can smell the testosterone, lol!  (Where did their necks go?  And I can't believe the size of their legs.)

I'd like to get some of that ferocity in my forms alright, a ferocity with steely determination.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 16, 2007)

Watch this version of the Haka.  The guy with his shirt off is very casual and relaxed while the intensity if roiling around him, yet he displays supreme confidence when he does execute a movement.  During the slow parts of this form, this is the kind of mindset that you want to emulate.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 16, 2007)

Ah, rugby... a game of thugs played by gentlemen. Soccer ... a game of gentlemen played by thugs. Rugby men in their shorts...ooh don't get me started lol!

Most Polynesian men I think still regard themselves as warriors or at the very least descendants of warriors. Martial spirit is very strong in them, most seem to go for Rugby or Aussie rules I think as opposed to martial arts,though I think Hawaii (correct me if I'm wrong) has a strong martial arts culture?

I've just come back from the Open Day at our local fire station where we were asked to do a display. I did Pinan Shodan and Chil Sung Il Ro to contrast each other. Lots of non martial arts people watching, the trick is to go inside your head and concentrate then it's just you and you're not aware of people being there.


----------



## Kacey (Sep 16, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> For me it's odd that you are being told what kata to perform and even odder that it's a new one to you. For my first few competitions I did the first kata I learned Pinan Nidan. My instructor at the time told me and I agreed with her that it's better to do a 'simpler' kata well than struggle to do a harder kata especially if it's not appropriate to your grade.


 
I agree with Tez.  Competition is a time to show off - and while I'm all for pushing people as fast and hard as they can go, pushing too fast and/or hard can push people right out the door.  Sending someone to a competition to perform a pattern that they are unsure of - especially, as I recall this being, their first tournament - doesn't strike me as high expectations; it strikes me as setting someone up to fail.  I'm not saying you're going to fail - I'm sure, with your drive, that you'll do fine - but in general, as an instructor, I consider this to be a poor practice.



Tez3 said:


> Lynne I'm sure you will do very well, remember to breathe!! Walk onto to the mat with your head high, shoulders back as if you mean business. It's not arrogance it's confidence and if you can radiate it even if you don't feel it you're more than half way there! Loud kihaps will help you as well, it helps release the tension in you. Head movements are important but often forgotten, if you make a mistake carry on and don't change the expression on your face! There's always a slight chance the judges won't notice lol! I always approached the kata in the same frame of mind as the kumite, aggressively!



This, also, is great advice!


----------



## Lynne (Sep 18, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I agree with Tez. Competition is a time to show off - and while I'm all for pushing people as fast and hard as they can go, pushing too fast and/or hard can push people right out the door. Sending someone to a competition to perform a pattern that they are unsure of - especially, as I recall this being, their first tournament - doesn't strike me as high expectations; it strikes me as setting someone up to fail. I'm not saying you're going to fail - I'm sure, with your drive, that you'll do fine - but in general, as an instructor, I consider this to be a poor practice.
> 
> 
> 
> This, also, is great advice!


New moves, new preparations, whether to hold the hand vertical or angled in this knife block or that one, stepping deeply enough in the double fist block - lots to learn.  We have special help classes and I may attend a few of those so I can get the correction I need.  I've got the foot pattern down but doing new moves with the correct hand preparation is a bugger - it doesn't flow yet.  Of course it doesn't.  I just started learning the form last Thursday.

I don't mind not winning, but I want to execute the form very well.

I forgot - one of the orange belts is doing the form taught at her level, Pyong Ahn E Dan.  So, I guess we are strongly encouraged to do a Chil-Sung form but perhaps we don't have to if we are uncomfortable with it.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 20, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Well really, doing a naihanchi / keema hyung at a forms competition is a bad idea anyway. They have great application and purpose, but they're hardly flashy and half as short as basically any other hyung. Which is why red belts in the ITF usually do palche deh in tournaments until they master sip soo as cho dans (and even then sometimes they'll prefer palche deh).
> 
> Good luck, Lynne. Wish I could help you on the form, but I dunno it even as much as you do.


Maybe you can find someone to teach you the Chil-Sung forms, JT.  I believe I would want to learn them.  Do you know why your school doesn't teach them?  And thank you for the sentiment.

We do Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung a little differently than Upnorthkyosa does in his video.  For the energy press, we go into a low side stance and scoop, turn into a front stance and press.  In the few Chil-Sung videos I've seen on the internet, no one does the side stance first in Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung.

I've got the footwork and preparation down.  Now, I'm trying to go from water to fire in the energy press to the front kick and back to water again as I do the next energy scoop and press.

I think for a black belt, it would be very easy to get the basics because you already know how to do a double-fist block, chop to the throat, knee to the head, middle knife block with preparation, and so on.  I suspect that the breathing in this form is the real trick.  When I do an energy scoop I really can't inhale because I'd pass out before I got to exhale during the press.  I need to learn how to breathe during my forms like the black belts do. Unfortunately, I don't get to hear them breathe very often.


----------



## AdamR (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Maybe you can find someone to teach you the Chil-Sung forms, JT.  I believe I would want to learn them.  Do you know why your school doesn't teach them?



Some places don't teach them if they are trying to really stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do, as the forms are essentially part of Soo Bahk Do. I don't know if it's the case in this case, but there it is


----------



## Lynne (Sep 20, 2007)

AdamR said:


> Some places don't teach them if they are trying to really stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do, as the forms are essentially part of Soo Bahk Do. I don't know if it's the case in this case, but there it is


 
Well, that makes sense. 

I don't yet know the history, other than Hwang Kee initiated the Moo Duk Kwan style.  I should research the politics, etc., on this board.


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

AdamR said:


> Some places don't teach them if they are trying to really stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do, as the forms are essentially part of Soo Bahk Do. I don't know if it's the case in this case, but there it is


 
I don't know about people "trying to stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do" since Soo Bahk Do IS Moo Duk Kwan.  In fact, the forms were created by Grand Master Hwang Kee...who was the founder of Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do AND Soo Bahk Do).

The biggest reason why most schools in Tang Soo Do do not practice the Chil Sung or Yuk Ro series forms is that they are copyrighted intellectual property of the Hwang Family.  Following the Soo Bahk Do, Tang Soo Do split, there were some copyright suits to ensure that the things specifically created by Hwang Kee were protected.  Including logos, standardized curriculum, etc.

There are still a few Tang Soo Do schools who do practice and instruct the Chil Sung and/or Yuk Ro forms, such as the Mi Guk Kwan, GM Pak, Ho Sik's school, GM Byrne's schools, etc.  I do not know what arrangement exists between these organizations and the US Soo Bahk Do Federation to allow the instruction of these - although it could be as simple as a grandfather clause.

I have heard that there are still some suits pending regarding the publication of these forms.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 20, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> I don't know about people "trying to stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do" since Soo Bahk Do IS Moo Duk Kwan. In fact, the forms were created by Grand Master Hwang Kee...who was the founder of Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do AND Soo Bahk Do).
> 
> The biggest reason why most schools in Tang Soo Do do not practice the Chil Sung or Yuk Ro series forms is that they are copyrighted intellectual property of the Hwang Family. Following the Soo Bahk Do, Tang Soo Do split, there were some copyright suits to ensure that the things specifically created by Hwang Kee were protected. Including logos, standardized curriculum, etc.
> 
> ...


I had thought Soo Bahk Do was Moo Duk Kwan.  Also, I heard that Tae Kwon Do is/was?


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I had thought Soo Bahk Do was Moo Duk Kwan.  Also, I heard that Tae Kwon Do is/was?


It depends on your interpretation:  THE Moo Duk Kwan teaches Soo Bahk Do.  So anyone who is NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan, can't claim affiliation with the organization.  This organization also has a current and active Trademark on the term Moo Duk Kwan in the US.

Some styles, including TKD and Tang Soo Do schools use Moo Duk Kwan to refer to their style.  However, these schools have NO affiliation with THE Moo Duk Kwan.  In fact, the most recent break offs from THE Moo Duk Kwan faced legal battles for using: Trimmed Uniforms, Chil Sung forms, Yuk Rho Forms, and even the display of MDK certificates.  

So, and I don't know why people don't get this, this means if you do Tang Soo Do you ARE NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan....

Isn't it so clear?!?


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> So, and I don't know why people don't get this, this means if you do Tang Soo Do you ARE NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan....


 
But, you may still practice Moo Duk Kwan Style....Clear as mud!!!


----------



## Lynne (Sep 20, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> It depends on your interpretation: THE Moo Duk Kwan teaches Soo Bahk Do. So anyone who is NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan, can't claim affiliation with the organization. This organization also has a current and active Trademark on the term Moo Duk Kwan in the US.
> 
> Some styles, including TKD and Tang Soo Do schools use Moo Duk Kwan to refer to their style. However, these schools have NO affiliation with THE Moo Duk Kwan. In fact, the most recent break offs from THE Moo Duk Kwan faced legal battles for using: Trimmed Uniforms, Chil Sung forms, Yuk Rho Forms, and even the display of MDK certificates.
> 
> ...


Yes...our _style_ is Moo Duk Kwan.  At least I know that, lol.

So, Moo Duk Kwan means School of Martial Virtue.  And we endeavor to incorporate the philosophy into our teaching and our lifestyle, but from what you say, JW, I understand there to be an organization called The Moo Duk Kwan.  Is the Moo Duk Kwan an organization started by Hwang Kee or his son?????  I need to find out how Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do became two different entities, too (I know the history is on this board, so I shall research).


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I had thought Soo Bahk Do was Moo Duk Kwan. Also, I heard that Tae Kwon Do is/was?


 
That is correct, as JW said, Soo Bahk Do is THE Moo Duk Kwan, i.e. the Hwang family (H.C. Hwang, President of the US Soo Bahk Do Federation) is the creator and owner of THE Moo Duk Kwan.

As for Tae Kwon Do, there are in fact TKD schools which are Moo Duk Kwan style TKD schools.  But they are not THE Moo Duk Kwan, nor are the affiliated with the US SBD Federation.  

I'm sure that you can find much more in depth details on this history on this site....but basically....

Following the Japanese occupation of Korea (ended on 15 August 1945), 9 major Kwans or schools emerged.  These were:
Song Moo Kwan
Han Moo Kwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Moo Duk Kwan
Oh Do Kwan
Kang Duk Kwan
Jung Do Kwan
Jido Kwan
Chung Do Kwan

As you know, Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do are descended from the Moo Duk Kwan, but some other styles also descended from Moo Duk Kwan.  Each of these Kwans graduated a great deal of black belts in those styles, some affiliated themselves with the stronger Kwans, some continued in their own styles.  

Today, though, Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) and Tae Kwon Do are the only major Kwans remaining.  Tae Kwon Do the more popular strains, as I understand it, are descended from the Oh Do Kwan, although I personally know a few practitioners from the Jido Kwan (also Tae Kwon Do).  

Most KMA practitioners are descended from one of these Kwans in some way.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 20, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> That is correct, as JW said, Soo Bahk Do is THE Moo Duk Kwan, i.e. the Hwang family (H.C. Hwang, President of the US Soo Bahk Do Federation) is the creator and owner of THE Moo Duk Kwan.
> 
> As for Tae Kwon Do, there are in fact TKD schools which are Moo Duk Kwan style TKD schools. But they are not THE Moo Duk Kwan, nor are the affiliated with the US SBD Federation.
> 
> ...


Ok, thank you.  Well, a school such as mine that is under The American Tang Soo Do Association would be considered a non-Moo Duk Kwan school then?  As far as I know, we are not affiliated with the US Soo Bahk Do Federation.  What about schools that are affiliated with the ITF or WTF??? I wonder if they can become part of two institutions?  I wonder if they are associated with US Soo Bahk Do Federation.  And what about in Korea?  Are there MDK schools in Korea or is the MDK an American-only institution?


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Yes...our _style_ is Moo Duk Kwan. At least I know that, lol.
> 
> So, Moo Duk Kwan means School of Martial Virtue. And we endeavor to incorporate the philosophy into our teaching and our lifestyle, but from what you say, JW, I understand there to be an organization called The Moo Duk Kwan. Is the Moo Duk Kwan an organization started by Hwang Kee or his son????? I need to find out how Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do became two different entities, too (I know the history is on this board, so I shall research).


 
Lynne,

Your best bet is some research, but to make a long story short (and since it is your thread!).  You are right, THE Moo Duk Kwan is the organization founded and maintained by the Hwang family (Hwang Kee and his son, H.C. Hwang).  

As for the TSD/SBD Split....there are different stories out there.  From what I can gather, the split mostly dealt with the "contamination" of the art.  Basically, Tang Soo Do had become very large and a lot of school owners were teaching their own interpretations of the the style.  I've heard stories of Hwang Kee making surprise visits and finding chinese and japanese characters all over the schools and curriculums that had diverged from his vision.  

Therefore, he strove to protect his intellectual property by copyrighting the Tang Soo Do name and curriculum.  It was ruled in the courts, though, that Tang Soo Do was a generic term and therefore could not be copyrighted, so he copyrighted the term Soo Bahk Do - which is another translation for the Kanji characters for "Karate"....another generic term.

This formed the US Soo Bahk Do Federation.  The Federation then created a standardized curriculum and began enforcing this on its schools.  It has its advantages and its disadvantages, but the biggest thing is the members of the federation have direct access to the man and family who created Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do and thereby, The Moo Duk Kwan.

Does that clear it up at all?


----------



## Lynne (Sep 20, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Lynne,
> 
> Your best bet is some research, but to make a long story short (and since it is your thread!). You are right, THE Moo Duk Kwan is the organization founded and maintained by the Hwang family (Hwang Kee and his son, H.C. Hwang).
> 
> ...


Yes, it does clear things up.  Very interesting to know the history.  Well, we don't have any Japanese characters on our walls.  We do have some Chinese though, Pyong Ahn


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Ok, thank you. Well, a school such as mine that is under The American Tang Soo Do Association would be considered a non-Moo Duk Kwan school then? As far as I know, we are not affiliated with the US Soo Bahk Do Federation. What about schools that are affiliated with the ITF or WTF??? I wonder if they can become part of two institutions? I wonder if they are associated with US Soo Bahk Do Federation. And what about in Korea? Are there MDK schools in Korea or is the MDK an American-only institution?


 
That's another tricky question.  Your organization is not affiliated with THE Moo Duk Kwan, but you still practise Moo Duk Kwan style.  The material is basically the same and due to the lineage of your founder and instructors, you have claim to the knowledge and possibly the name as well.  It just means that you are not affiliated with THE Moo Duk Kwan.  It is important to understand that there is a different between THE Moo Duk Kwan as an organization and Moo Duk Kwan, as a generic name for a school and style.  So correct, your school is not affiliated with the US SBD Fed.  Nothing wrong with that, it is just an offshoot after the split.  All of those older founders were at once members of the Federation or its predecessor.

ITF (International Tang Soo Do Federation) and WTF (World Tang Soo Do Federation) are also NOT affiliated with the US SBD Fed.  But they are descended from the same place.  Their founders are also former SBD members...in some cases direct students of the Hwang Family.

Generally if you're a member of one organization, that's it.  You can't be a member of another.  Remember that affiliation like that offers you a great deal of advantages.  Access to training materials, to the masters, tournaments, in some cases school insurance, a great way to give credibility, among many other advantages.  But the different organizations have different curriculums and the freedom to teach their own interpretation of the same basic material.  As we move through time, though, the organizations are starting to slowly diverge....in time, they were no longer bear much resemblance.

In Korea....Well, there are no copyright laws in Korea.  And you're dealing with A LOT of politics there.  A lot of old masters who knew and trained with Hwang Kee himself.  Most schools in Korea are members of the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association (which is affiliated with the US SBD Fed) and therefore ARE members of THE Moo Duk Kwan.  But there are also non affiliated schools in Korea who are just generic Tang Soo Do.  In Korea, though, there really aren't any separate organizations (like ITF, WTF or ATSDF)...since their masters are so old, they have their own credibility.


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

Just a note.....just because I said it here does not make it 100% correct.  Just like anyone, I'm fallible, so if any of my facts are in error, please correct me.  I seek the truth just like everyone else!


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Yes...our _style_ is Moo Duk Kwan. At least I know that, lol.
> 
> So, Moo Duk Kwan means School of Martial Virtue. And we endeavor to incorporate the philosophy into our teaching and our lifestyle, but from what you say, JW, I understand there to be an organization called The Moo Duk Kwan. Is the Moo Duk Kwan an organization started by Hwang Kee or his son????? I need to find out how Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do became two different entities, too (I know the history is on this board, so I shall research).


 
Yes, it does mean School of Martial Virtue... So is it a location, organization, or style?  I would lean towards organization, because the current Moo Duk Kwan style is Soo Bahk Do, and I bet that most schools that aren't Soo Bahk Do have variations in body mechanics that vary from the World Moo Duk Kwan Federation's standardizations.  It's like getting a degree from Yale... You can teach, but you aren't teaching for Yale anymore.

As early as the 50s Hwang Kee was using Soo Bahk and Tang Soo interchangeably, so they may not actually be seperate yet... But they will be as far as body mechanics


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Ok, thank you. Well, a school such as mine that is under The American Tang Soo Do Association would be considered a non-Moo Duk Kwan school then? As far as I know, we are not affiliated with the US Soo Bahk Do Federation. What about schools that are affiliated with the ITF or WTF??? I wonder if they can become part of two institutions? I wonder if they are associated with US Soo Bahk Do Federation. And what about in Korea? Are there MDK schools in Korea or is the MDK an American-only institution?


 
You may teach things that WERE taught by the moo duk kwan, but you don't have access to the current developments of the moo duk kwan.  As MBuzzy said, you belong to one national or another, but mostly not both.  ITF and WTF (are you talking TKD or TSD here in either case the following is still true) are not part of the World Moo Duk Kwan which is the international organization that the US SBD Federation is a member of.  Both the US SBD Fed and the World MDK are headed by KJN H.C. Hwang.  There ARE MDK schools in Korea.


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Yes, it does mean School of Martial Virtue... So is it a location, organization, or style? I would lean towards organization, because the current Moo Duk Kwan style is Soo Bahk Do, and I bet that most schools that aren't Soo Bahk Do have variations in body mechanics


 
That's dead on.  I've trained on both sides and the biggest difference is the HUGE amount of emphasis placed on Hu-ri or the use of hips in Soo Bahk Do.  It is almost over exaggerated.  It generates a great deal of power, but without practice, you can sacrfice some speed.  I've never seen a TSD school that used that much hip movement.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 20, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> That's dead on.  I've trained on both sides and the biggest difference is the HUGE amount of emphasis placed on Hu-ri or the use of hips in Soo Bahk Do.  It is almost over exaggerated.  It generates a great deal of power, but without practice, you can sacrfice some speed.  I've never seen a TSD school that used that much hip movement.



Personally, I think their over emphasized transitions between moves breaks the translation of the "bunkai" of the forms.  It develops power, but you can have good hip without the ridiculous over emphasis on the hip preparation.  To me, and this is opinion, I DON'T like watching SBD people doing forms... However there is a video an instructor of mine has of H.C. Hwang performing a chil sun or yuk rho form that is just AMAZING.  I guess it is all the practitioner.


----------



## Butch (Sep 20, 2007)

Just one small point here, GM Hwang was not the founder of TSD. The term was first used by GM Lee who studied ShotoKan in Japan and brought it back to Korea then rename it in Korean terms thus Tnag Soo Do and Karate have the same Kanji lettering. The rest is pretty much on line with history, but there are some gray areas.
Butch


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Personally, I think their over emphasized transitions between moves breaks the translation of the "bunkai" of the forms. It develops power, but you can have good hip without the ridiculous over emphasis on the hip preparation. To me, and this is opinion, I DON'T like watching SBD people doing forms... However there is a video an instructor of mine has of H.C. Hwang performing a chil sun or yuk rho form that is just AMAZING. I guess it is all the practitioner.


 
You are right about it being all the practitioner.  Some people over do it and some people have it right on.  I'm still working on getting MORE hip into my movements.  

For some Bunkai, it works out really well....for others it doesn't work so well.  It also depends how deeply you read the bunkai.

From what I've learned as a part of the SBD Fed so far is that it isn't the hip preparation that is emphasized, but the follow through.  Preparing the hip is important, but the power comes from the hip follow through.


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

Butch said:


> Just one small point here, GM Hwang was not the founder of TSD. The term was first used by GM Lee who studied ShotoKan in Japan and brought it back to Korea then rename it in Korean terms thus Tnag Soo Do and Karate have the same Kanji lettering. The rest is pretty much on line with history, but there are some gray areas.
> Butch


 
Sir, I'm curious as to what your reference is?  I had never heard that.  Do you know what year this happened and how it came to be used by GM Hwang Kee?  Also, which GM Lee?  Lee is an extremely common name is Korea and there are many Master Lee's.  Did this happen during the Japanese occupation?

Tang Soo Do is the literal translation of the japanese characters for Karate Do (Way of the China Hand), but as I understand it, the characters were changed at some point from Way of the China Hand to Way of the empty hand, which translates to Soo Bahk Do in Korean (Hanja).  

I was under the impression that Hwang Kee was the first person who associated the term Tang Soo Do with his style.  He was a talanted translator.  One of his biggest contributions to the early development of the art was tranlating the Muye Dobo Tong Ji from the original Ancient Chinese.  

I did some additional research and I could find no mention of a Master Lee using the term Tang Soo Do.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 20, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Sir, I'm curious as to what your reference is?  I had never heard that.  Do you know what year this happened and how it came to be used by GM Hwang Kee?  Also, which GM Lee?  Lee is an extremely common name is Korea and there are many Master Lee's.  Did this happen during the Japanese occupation?
> 
> Tang Soo Do is the literal translation of the japanese characters for Karate Do (Way of the China Hand), but as I understand it, the characters were changed at some point from Way of the China Hand to Way of the empty hand, which translates to Soo Bahk Do in Korean (Hanja).
> 
> ...


Mbuzzy,

It is accepted that Hwang Kee was not the first person to use the term Tang Soo Do.  It was another one of the original 9 Kwan's that used Tang Soo or Kong Soo before Hwang Kee did.  I beleive that Hwang Kee actually used the term Hwa Soo do before changing it to Tang Soo Do and adding the Pinan forms.


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Mbuzzy,
> 
> It is accepted that Hwang Kee was not the first person to use the term Tang Soo Do. It was another one of the original 9 Kwan's that used Tang Soo or Kong Soo before Hwang Kee did. I beleive that Hwang Kee actually used the term Hwa Soo do before changing it to Tang Soo Do and adding the Pinan forms.


 
Do you know of any reference that talks more about it?  I'm not denying that it's true or false, I'd just like to learn more.

I think this is just a matter of semantics.  Even if someone else used the term first, I don't believe that there is any debate that Hwang Kee is the one who tied that particular term to this style, effectively name it and creating a style.  Unless I'm mistaken about that too.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 20, 2007)

Sure, there's a book by Master Glenn Jones called The Korean Martial Arts Handbook that talks about this.  Other references include www.warrior-scholar.com/smf  Butch isn't arguing about that Hwang Kee developed Moo Duk Kwan, but there are other Tang Soo Do schools that don't trace back to Hwang Kee at all.  Like you said TSD just means karate.


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 20, 2007)

Thank you, I'll have to start looking.  I'd like to continue this, but I think we've strayed pretty far off course.  I'm really curious about the TSD schools that DON'T trace their lineage back to GM Hwang Kee, would you mind PMing me some details on that?  Like, which ones and how that happened?


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 20, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Thank you, I'll have to start looking.  I'd like to continue this, but I think we've strayed pretty far off course.  I'm really curious about the TSD schools that DON'T trace their lineage back to GM Hwang Kee, would you mind PMing me some details on that?  Like, which ones and how that happened?



I don't mind straying off topic.  98% of TSD schools you find these days will be related to MDK/Hwang Kee, but there are several schools that do non-mdk Tang Soo Do (in fact I would say many of the schools derived from Kim Ki Whang aren't necessarily MDK TSD schools since he taught his own brand of Tang Soo Do).  But all those Kwan's you listed earlier, called their art Tang Soo Do before Tae Kwon Do came along.


----------



## AdamR (Sep 21, 2007)

Butch said:


> Just one small point here, GM Hwang was not the founder of TSD. The term was first used by GM Lee who studied ShotoKan in Japan and brought it back to Korea then rename it in Korean terms thus Tnag Soo Do and Karate have the same Kanji lettering. The rest is pretty much on line with history, but there are some gray areas.
> Butch


As far as I understand it (and I have FAR less time and reading under my belt than many here I realise, but it's all discussion, right? ), way before Funakoshi went to Japan and taught Shotokan to that extent, the Okinawans were already practising Tode (Chinese Hand) after the likes of Matsumura brought Chuan Fa back from China. Tode uses the same characters as Karatedo (originally) and Tangsoodo. Is it not possible that the characters were used directly from there, rather than taking them to Japan and back first?

That's how I have it in my head at least


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 21, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> I don't mind straying off topic. 98% of TSD schools you find these days will be related to MDK/Hwang Kee, but there are several schools that do non-mdk Tang Soo Do (in fact I would say many of the schools derived from Kim Ki Whang aren't necessarily MDK TSD schools since he taught his own brand of Tang Soo Do). But all those Kwan's you listed earlier, called their art Tang Soo Do before Tae Kwon Do came along.


 
Even the Tang Soo Do that we know today was Tang Soo Do before Tae Kwon Do came along.

So what lineage did Kim Ki Whang come from?  And what organizations exist today that are not MDK related?  Even the Mi Guk Kwan traces its lineage back to the MDK.


----------



## Butch (Sep 21, 2007)

GM Lee Won Kuk started his school in 1944 during the occupation and used the kanji of karate-do with the Korean interpretation it became Tang Soo Do.
Here is a cut from wikipedia that explaines the characters, not the best sorce I know, but it is close.
Tang Soo Do (Hangul: &#45817;&#49688;&#46020 is the Korean pronunciation of the Chinese characters &#21776;&#25163;&#36947;. In Japanese, these characters mean "karate-do", but in contemporary Japanese karate-do is written with different characters (&#31354;&#25163;&#36947. The Japanese pronunciation of both sets of characters is the same, but the newer version means "Way of the Empty Hand" rather than "Way of the T'ang (China) Hand", although it could also be interpreted as "Way of the China Hand".

As for other non-MDK Org.s out there they are very very few, but there are some JiDoKwan schools and one other that I have heard of but I haven't found them yet.
Take Care,
Butch


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 21, 2007)

Kim Ki Whang is an interesting character.  He learned Shudokan Karate among other styles and called it Tang Soo DO.  Hwang Kee sent him here to teach Tang Soo Do for the Moo Duk Kwan, but when he was here, he didn't teach Moo Duk Kwan Style Tang Soo Do.  He picked forms from Shudokan and taught a more flatfooted fugal jaseh.  So while he does have some association with the Moo Duk Kwan him and his students do not practice TSD as it ws practiced in the MDK.


----------



## Butch (Sep 21, 2007)

If Master McLain is out there some where I sure that he can fill in any thing you would like to know about GM Kim Ki Whang and the Chayon-Ryu style.
You can find a paper that he wrote here:
http://www.kimsookarate.com/contributions/kimKiwhangLegacy/kimkiwhang.pdf
and here is the website for their Org. with more information on this style:
http://www.kimsookarate.com/

Butch


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 21, 2007)

Yes, I'm familiar with Mr. McLain from many boards, and I practice the form Sabang Kwan (aka Shihoken, a derivative of Shisochin).


----------

