# Bare knuckle for self-defense?



## Jared Traveler (Aug 19, 2022)

Does anyone have experience hitting someone in the face in self-defense with a closed fist? I'm talking about striking with the knuckles, not a hammer fist or anything.

Have you been witness to this event? Did the striker break his hand?

Do you see closed fist strikes to an opponents face as a viable technique for self-defense? Do you feel confident and plan on using a closed fist?

Does your system teach closed fist strikes? And do they prepare you to strike a real attacker in this manner?


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 19, 2022)

I see no problem with it.  

My own experience consists of me getting punched in the side of the face.  The other guy did not break his hand.  

Obvious targets to do your best to avoid because of potential damage to the hand include the teeth and forehead, but a solid follow-through to the nose or chin or side of the face shouldn’t be a problem.  The head wobbles on the neck.  The jaw can be dislocated and broken.  You can really hurt someone that way. 

Consistent training on a heavy bag or makiwara or other robust striking surface, without use of wraps and gloves, should give you the conditioning and education needed to line up the delivery system with minimal risk of injury to the hand and wrist.


----------



## Steve (Aug 19, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Does anyone have experience hitting someone in the face in self-defense with a closed fist? I'm talking about striking with the knuckles, not a hammer fist or anything.
> 
> Have you been witness to this event? Did the striker break his hand?
> 
> ...


The only time I've ever broken a hand was wrestling in high school.  I went for a single leg and jammed my fingers... ended up with spiral fractures in my hand.  Never broke a hand punching someone.  Maybe I was doing it wrong.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Aug 19, 2022)

When I was a much younger man I worked as a corrections officer. I "field tested" a lot of martial arts techniques in those days. But I also transported more than a couple inmates to the hospital with broken hands from hitting each other.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 19, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Does anyone have experience hitting someone in the face in self-defense with a closed fist? I'm talking about striking with the knuckles, not a hammer fist or anything.
> 
> Have you been witness to this event? Did the striker break his hand?
> 
> ...





			http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html


----------



## drop bear (Aug 19, 2022)

I haven't had a problem. But fighting is risky. And obviously it can happen.

The guys I know who have competed bare knuckle haven't done that much hand conditioning. Preferring to have healthy hands and a larger volume of training instead.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 19, 2022)

I don't know if this will come up. But I have seen a few people break their hands through gloves throwing body punches. Because it can catch an elbow in an awkward spot.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 19, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Does anyone have experience hitting someone in the face in self-defense with a closed fist? I'm talking about striking with the knuckles, not a hammer fist or anything.
> 
> Have you been witness to this event? Did the striker break his hand?
> 
> ...



All four marks are cuts or piercing from teeth. 
Right Hand - 

So my experience is not recent as scars are older and smaller.


----------



## Buka (Aug 19, 2022)

I've witnesses a few street fights where hands were broken on faces/heads. But didn't know that until the fight was well over.

I've never broken a hand, I imagine it sucks.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 19, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Does anyone have experience hitting someone in the face in self-defense with a closed fist? I'm talking about striking with the knuckles, not a hammer fist or anything.
> 
> Have you been witness to this event? Did the striker break his hand?
> 
> ...


Yes X 7. I have struck many a face with closed fist in street. I have been struck many times in the face with closed fist. I have assisted in dozens of 5th metacarpal fractures that were received by punching a closed fist on a skull. Likewise, I have assisted in dozens of facial fractures caused the same way. I teach it, I have no doubts that I can do it again if needed. The issue is the structure of the fist and where it contacts the skull. In my experience, people let the distal end of the 5th metacarpal droop by balling up the fist. If you squeeze too tight and ball it up then the 5th is not splinted or supported by the rest of the hand. When someone swings wide(the ghetto whopper punch aka haymaker)and only makes contact with the lateral side of the fist, the 5th metacarpal will not sustain its integrity on impact with the rounded parts of the skull. Boxers avoid this by taping and wrapping to keep that squared shape of the fist. It takes time and training to keep that structure in the fist when striking. I have more on this if you want, just let me know, I’m happy to assist if I can.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 19, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> All four marks are cuts or piercing from teeth.
> Right Hand -
> 
> So my experience is not recent as scars are older and smaller.


I have one on my left index knuckle. I thought I was my bone sticking out, I went to the ED and said I hit it on the curb. The Dr. said “uh huh, curbs don’t have teeth“ when he removed the broke tooth fragment.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I don't know if this will come up. But I have seen a few people break their hands through gloves throwing body punches. Because it can catch an elbow in an awkward spot.


My uncle did that and warned me of it. He fractured left 4th metacarpal. Forgot about it til you posted this, thanks!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 19, 2022)

Buka said:


> I've witnesses a few street fights where hands were broken on faces/heads. But didn't know that until the fight was well over.
> 
> I've never broken a hand, I imagine it sucks.


My best buddy charged me from behind in a darkened parking lot. He had his hood up and tight, I had a girlfriend with me, he was not supposed to be within a hundred miles that night. Yes, there was alcohol involved. A fast reaction caused me to grab him by the front and sweep him, hard. Now this training brother of mine had 6 years of Aikido training before he ever started Kung fu training. He twisted in the air while I was still grasping his jacket. My left ring finger got caught in the jacket and spiral fractured my left 4th metacarpal. My ring finger was jutting out far left under my pinkie. I was very unhappy with my best friend in that moment. I was far out from a hospital so I reduced the fracture right then and then put an ace bandage in my fist and wrapped the whole thing into a mit. im about 1/2 inch short on that one now bit it works fine. I still cuss him over it in the winter when it hurts.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 19, 2022)

Here it is 17 years later…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 19, 2022)

Compared to my right


----------



## Buka (Aug 19, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Here it is 17 years later…


Any continued pain from that?


----------



## Jared Traveler (Aug 19, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yes X 7. I have struck many a face with closed fist in street. I have been struck many times in the face with closed fist. I have assisted in dozens of 5th metacarpal fractures that were received by punching a closed fist on a skull. Likewise, I have assisted in dozens of facial fractures caused the same way. I teach it, I have no doubts that I can do it again if needed. The issue is the structure of the fist and where it contacts the skull. In my experience, people let the distal end of the 5th metacarpal droop by balling up the fist. If you squeeze too tight and ball it up then the 5th is not splinted or supported by the rest of the hand. When someone swings wide(the ghetto whopper punch aka haymaker)and only makes contact with the lateral side of the fist, the 5th metacarpal will not sustain its integrity on impact with the rounded parts of the skull. Boxers avoid this by taping and wrapping to keep that squared shape of the fist. It takes time and training to keep that structure in the fist when striking. I have more on this if you want, just let me know, I’m happy to assist if I can.


Sure! Send me more. I spent the fist 20+ years of training committed to palm strike. Now I'm punching multiple times a week with closed fists and rethinking possibilities.

I used to break a lot of boards probably 25 years ago. But I also broke my knuckle on a small board once.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 20, 2022)

Only in the cold. My right thumb is more painful, that’s a different story…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 20, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Sure! Send me more. I spent the fist 20+ years of training committed to palm strike. Now I'm punching multiple times a week with closed fists and rethinking possibilities.
> 
> I used to break a lot of boards probably 25 years ago. But I also broke my knuckle on a small board once.


Sounds like you have as much experience or more than me.  I don’t want to say my way is best or anything of the sort. I can explain how I was taught and what has worked for me. Spread the back of the hand. Keep the wrist straight. Fold the fingers over the palm. Curl them but leave a space inside that you could hold a piece of chalk in there just tight enough I can’t pull it out, but not so tight that you break it. Now lift the fifth metacarpal bone, not the finger! So now the whole ridge of knuckles is a straight line. Now fold the thumb over the index knuckle finger and supinate the thumb. Now pull the the thumb into the wrist to square the torques. Don’t choke it to death, form the structure around the space. You can get a similar feel from bag gloves that have the bar built into the palm. When I was a kid I carried a D cell battery to put in my fist. It’s the same idea just more advanced. No battery required, haha. Hope that is legible enough. Let me know if you have problems or questions.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2022)

I have been punching 6X6 pole for years preparing for that. I did not punch anyone's face, it cannot be harder than the pole!!! It is NOT good enough to just punch heavy bags with bare knuckles, have to be hard surface.

I don't know why people here are so against punching poles, To me, it's essential. I have been doing this for years. I don't punch hard, just twice a week. Notice I practice on elbows and shin, that's very important also.






Something is funny, the video won't start. *Just click "Youtube" on the lower right of the window *to open new window to see.


You can take my words, punching heavy bags with no gloves are NOT good enough. I even stuffed my bags harder, it's nothing. I have been punching heavy bags for decades, 20 years ago, I was playing with friends breaking boards. I wore the Everlast bag glove that was about 1/4" thick padding(similar to the head). I punched 3 boards with no space in between. I broke the boards, but I broke my knuckle. Took like 5 months to recover. Ever since, I started punching poles, start out very light, took a few months to get there. It was painful first, but it'll go away. I've been doing it once a week every since until last year. I started doing twice a week.

I can only speak for myself: I play guitar, I was a pretty good guitarist long time ago. I do a lot of soldering with micro circuits( we call those SMD) that requires very steady hands working under magnifying glass. I have absolutely no problem. I have very steady and precision hands. Punching pole does not affect my hand coordination a bit. *Do it at your own risk, I can only speak for myself.*


----------



## Doc (Aug 23, 2022)

Yeah, like breaking boards it's dumb. 27 little tiny spindly bones versus one big bone. Boxers in street fight invariable end up with a "boxers fracture" of the first knuckle. My wise Hawaiian Kahuna Teacher once told me, "Hit the hard with the soft, and the soft with the hard to avoid injury." My experience on the street validated that perspective as I saw colleagues end up in the emergency room for punching with a clenched fist a hard target. Same for the idiots arrested for fighting. Busted hands all around.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Doc said:


> Yeah, like breaking boards it's dumb. 27 little tiny spindly bones versus one big bone. Boxers in street fight invariable end up with a "boxers fracture" of the first knuckle. My wise Hawaiian Kahuna Teacher once told me, "Hit the hard with the soft, and the soft with the hard to avoid injury." My experience on the street validated that perspective as I saw colleagues end up in the emergency room for punching with a clenched fist a hard target. Same for the idiots arrested for fighting. Busted hands all around.


A boxers fracture is of the fifth metacarpal, not the first. I have had more than one street fight, and never broke a knuckle from a punching impact. It’s easy to avoid by knowing how to make a fist correctly, and not punching the rounded parts of the skull with knuckles. The facial parts of the skull are quite thin compared to the cranium, the bones behind the face plates have the consistency of potato chips.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> A boxers fracture is of the fifth metacarpal, not the first. I have had more than one street fight, and never broke a knuckle from a punching impact. It’s easy to avoid by knowing how to make a fist correctly, and not punching the rounded parts of the skull with knuckles. The facial parts of the skull are quite thin compared to the cranium, the bones behind the face plates have the consistency of potato chips.


Yeh, BUT the guy moves, you aim at the face and he moves, it too late for you to change direction midway. You might end up punching the forehead or side with solid bone. 

What is so wrong punching poles like I do? I am not saying to punch hard,  do it lightly like what I do will strengthen the knuckle tremendously. One cannot think punching heavy bag will strength knuckles. I punch heavy bags for decades, I stuffed the bags to make it harder already. Nothing can prepare you to punch a hard target like the head.

Like I said, I broke my knuckles wearing a bag glove with 1/4" padding when I break boards. It should be at least as padded like the skull. I broke it so bad it took a long time to heal. Believe me, you won't get the second punch in after you break your knuckle, it's very painful. The move sickening thing is when the knuckle break, it collapses, I could feel it collapsed. That in turn cushion the blow and make it less effective!!!

It's easy to say you punch correctly and you won't have problem. Situation is dynamic, you don't have time to have the right distance, the right position and timing. Anything goes wrong and there goes your knuckle. The guy is NOT going to stand there and let you get to the perfect position to punch!!!

Punching is one thing I have been doing for decades, at the time, I went to school 2 hours earlier and working on the heavy bag. I never stop for decades. Believe me, NOTHING can prepare you to punch something hard like the skull. That's why I started punching pole 20 years ago after I broke my knuckle.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Doc said:


> Yeah, like breaking boards it's dumb. 27 little tiny spindly bones versus one big bone. Boxers in street fight invariable end up with a "boxers fracture" of the first knuckle. My wise Hawaiian Kahuna Teacher once told me, "Hit the hard with the soft, and the soft with the hard to avoid injury." My experience on the street validated that perspective as I saw colleagues end up in the emergency room for punching with a clenched fist a hard target. Same for the idiots arrested for fighting. Busted hands all around.


Yes, breaking board is dumb, but the effect on the bone is real. Like I said, I wore bag glove to punch. It has 1/4" padding, better cushioning than the skin on the skull. I don't do board breaking, just play around that time and that hurt.

You cannot punch with soft hands all the way. You relax the hand, only squeeze at the target point at the last moment. That's very basic thing in punching, nothing new. BUT you still need to squeeze at the last moment at contact. Of cause I did that, still break my knuckle bad.

This has nothing to do with marchioness, it's about strengthening the bones. I punch light, just to strengthen the bone, nothing about showing off, there's nothing to show off punching so light like me anyway. I think it will make a day and night difference on the knuckle.

Like I said, I am not new in punching. Been practicing on heavy bags for decades. Nothing can prepare you to punch skull. talk is easy, real life situation is dynamic, the guy moves, you likely not contact at the optimal point you expect.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, BUT the guy moves, you aim at the face and he moves, it too late for you to change direction midway. You might end up punching the forehead or side with solid bone.
> 
> What is so wrong punching poles like I do? I am not saying to punch hard,  do it lightly like what I do will strengthen the knuckle tremendously. One cannot think punching heavy bag will strength knuckles. I punch heavy bags for decades, I stuffed the bags to make it harder already. Nothing can prepare you to punch a hard target like the head.
> 
> ...


Yeah ok, I am not just fantasizing, I have done it. More than a few times. I will say it again, if you don’t correctly structure yourself, you can be injured. If you get into fights, you can be injured. No surprises there. I don’t get into these situations anytime recently, but I don’t have doubts that I can do it if needed. I too have several decades of training, I also have many years of surgical experience assisting in the repairing these types of injuries. Understanding where and how to strike does make some difference. I will say here for at least the third time, DONT STRIKE THE ROUNDED PARTS OF THE SKULL WITH THE KNUCKLES! If you doubt your ability to land strikes on your chosen target after decades of training, maybe you need to consider a different hobby.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, BUT the guy moves, you aim at the face and he moves, it too late for you to change direction midway. You might end up punching the forehead or side with solid bone.
> 
> What is so wrong punching poles like I do? I am not saying to punch hard,  do it lightly like what I do will strengthen the knuckle tremendously. One cannot think punching heavy bag will strength knuckles. I punch heavy bags for decades, I stuffed the bags to make it harder already. Nothing can prepare you to punch a hard target like the head.
> 
> ...


It is NOT too late to change direction during a punch. If you can’t change direction or take it back then that’s a different topic. I very often DO change direction. You don’t have to believe me, but if you don’t, please consider the possibility that your cup may a little too full.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yeah ok, I am not just fantasizing, I have done it. More than a few times. I will say it again, if you don’t correctly structure yourself, you can be injured. If you get into fights, you can be injured. No surprises there. I don’t get into these situations anytime recently, but I don’t have doubts that I can do it if needed. I too have several decades of training, I also have many years of surgical experience assisting in the repairing these types of injuries. Understanding where and how to strike does make some difference. I will say here for at least the third time, DONT STRIKE THE ROUNDED PARTS OF THE SKULL WITH THE KNUCKLES! If you doubt your ability to land strikes on your chosen target after decades of training, maybe you need to consider a different hobby.


Again, you keep assume you can hit dead on the target as if the target is standing still. You assume the other guy don't know anything and just stand there. I don't. Look at the fights in UFC, how often they land it dead on? This is real life, you think it's in movie?


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It is NOT too late to change direction during a punch. If you can’t change direction or take it back then that’s a different topic. I very often DO change direction. You don’t have to believe me, but if you don’t, please consider the possibility that your cup may a little too full.


I think you think too highly of yourself and assume the other guy don't know anything. This is one thing I never get, you guys TALK fight, not fight.

Watch the UFC fight, look at how fast those people move. Don't assume you opponent just stand there. Give more credit to your opponent. Or you might be in with a brutal awakening.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Again, you keep assume you can hit dead on the target as if the target is standing still. You assume the other guy don't know anything and just stand there. I don't. Look at the fights in UFC, how often they land it dead on? This is real life, you think it's in movie?


You don’t read the whole post do you?


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You don’t read the whole post do you?


Maybe you should make a video to show how fast you can punch and how hard on a heavy bag so I can learn something. Yes, I punch slow, so I have to do preventative preparation.

I read your post, this is where the talk ends. Show and tell, make a video of yourself punching heavy bag, NOT from your younger days.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Again, you keep assume you can hit dead on the target as if the target is standing still. You assume the other guy don't know anything and just stand there. I don't. Look at the fights in UFC, how often they land it dead on? This is real life, you think it's in movie?


UFC isn’t real life for you or for me. I havent been in ufc and neither have you. I HAVE actually been in fights, several. They don’t always go the way I wanted, I’m honest about that. I hope that you read the whole post. Please don’t misunderstand me Alan, I don’t mean disrespect to you, but it’s rather insulting when you tell me about stuff that I have actually done many times.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> UFC isn’t real life for you or for me. I havent been in ufc and neither have you. I HAVE actually been in fights, several. They don’t always go the way I wanted, I’m honest about that. I hope that you read the whole post. Please don’t misunderstand me Alan, I don’t mean disrespect to you, but it’s rather insulting when you tell me about stuff that I have actually done many times.


Read my response, make a video. I did posted my punching on heavy bag long time ago for the better or the worst.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I think you think too highly of yourself and assume the other guy don't know anything. This is one thing I never get, you guys TALK fight, not fight.
> 
> Watch the UFC fight, look at how fast those people move. Don't assume you opponent just stand there. Give more credit to your opponent. Or you might be in with a brutal awakening.


The things you post demonstrate that your level of ability is what is informing your statement. Once again, there might be something you don’t know or can’t do.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Read my response, make a video. I did posted my punching on heavy bag long time ago for the better or the worst.


I highly doubt that any of us will be attacked on the street by actual ufc fighters. If that happens, then I will probably lose that fight. I do not and never have claimed to be a ufc level fighter. I don’t make videos, and I’m not here to show off or prove anything to anyone. Take it or leave it.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I think you think too highly of yourself and assume the other guy don't know anything. This is one thing I never get, you guys TALK fight, not fight.
> 
> Watch the UFC fight, look at how fast those people move. Don't assume you opponent just stand there. Give more credit to your opponent. Or you might be in with a brutal awakening.


This is me and you talking, don’t project on others.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I highly doubt that any of us will be attacked on the street by actual ufc fighters. If that happens, then I will probably lose that fight. I do not and never have claimed to be a ufc level fighter. I don’t make videos, and I’m not here to show off or prove anything to anyone. Take it or leave it.


Ok, I understand, you just talk. Maybe I should delete all my video that show how slow I am and talk as if I can fly.

Yes, I can change direction in the middle of the punch, I am fast enough to land on the opponent before they can react. 😂


----------



## chiquest (Aug 23, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Does anyone have experience hitting someone in the face in self-defense with a closed fist? I'm talking about striking with the knuckles, not a hammer fist or anything.
> 
> Have you been witness to this event? Did the striker break his hand?
> 
> ...


Why take the chance of breaking your hand with a punch to the head? A palm heel strike delivers at least as much blunt force...with the added benefit of fingers to the eyes if the strike is to the chin with the fingers bent slightly. I can pop my 80-pound heavy bag much harder with a palm strike than with a fist. Instead of a hook punch or "hay maker", cup the hand and strike the ear. That will severely disorient an attacker so that additional strikes and kicks can be delivered. Bas Rutten recommends palm strikes to the head for most folks to use...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm0SyEqc7ns (2:35 in the video). Also, Joe Rogan...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4briNhn4xQ.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Ok, I understand, you just talk. Maybe I should delete all my video that show how slow I am and talk as if I can fly.
> 
> Yes, I can change direction in the middle of the punch, I am fast enough to land on the opponent before they can react. 😂


Ok than why are we arguing? You can do it, and you think I can’t. I’m quite all right with that. Maybe you are faster and more able than me. Lots of folks probably are. If you are fast enough to land it before they can react then why would you believe otherwise about me? Anyone can do it with training. You can even punch people in the face and not break your hand if you train and have skill and get lucky, I know because I have done it. People break bricks, boards etc. with the knuckles, why would you think that face bones are tougher than bricks? Sure, my best fighting days are past me, no doubt about it. I tell you what, it’s not hard to find me, if you come to Northern California come visit me and we can train together. That’s a far better way to discern whether I am just hot air or talking from a place genuine sincerity. I also mean that from a respectful and genuine perspective. I would be happy to have you check out my teaching methodologies and then you can run me down all you want on this forum.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

chiquest said:


> Why take the chance of breaking your hand with a punch to the head? A palm heel strike delivers at least as much blunt force...with the added benefit of fingers to the eyes if the strike is to the chin with the fingers bent slightly. I can pop my 80-pound heavy bag much harder with a palm strike than with a fist. Instead of a hook punch or "hay maker", cup the hand and strike the ear. That will severely disorient an attacker so that additional strikes and kicks can be delivered. Bas Rutten recommends palm strikes to the head for most folks to use...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm0SyEqc7ns (2:35 in the video). Also, Joe Rogan...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4briNhn4xQ.


Bad Rutten is an expert with that palm strike. It is very effective. Nothing wrong with that. We were really just discussing whether it can be done(fist to face)without breaking the hand. I say it can because I have done it. Some  people disagree with me, and to make their point, they suggest I am just talking falsely. If anyone reads the entirety of what I post, I said over and over just don’t strike the rounded parts of the skull. That’s where the hammer fist and palm strikes are useful.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok than why are we arguing? You can do it, and you think I can’t. I’m quite all right with that. Maybe you are faster and more able than me. Lots of folks probably are. If you are fast enough to land it before they can react then why would you believe otherwise about me? Anyone can do it with training. You can even punch people in the face and not break your hand if you train and have skill and get lucky, I know because I have done it. People break bricks, boards etc. with the knuckles, why would you think that face bones are tougher than bricks? Sure, my best fighting days are past me, no doubt about it. I tell you what, it’s not hard to find me, if you come to Northern California come visit me and we can train together. That’s a far better way to discern whether I am just hot air or talking from a place genuine sincerity. I also mean that from a respectful and genuine perspective. I would be happy to have you check out my teaching methodologies and then you can run me down all you want on this forum.


First all, I am not running you down, we are all too old for that already. You are NOT reading my post. I said do NOT assume anyone can land a perfect punch at the perfect spot. NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU ARE, there's always a faster person. All I am saying is toughen up the knuckles as insurance in case one miss and hit the forehead resulting in breaking the knuckles.

I did not say I am fast, I am slow. I did post a video of punching and kicking heavy bag, nothing to write home about. I am slow, so I practice in case I miss and hit the forehead. It's a good insurance.

Honestly, I treat kick boxing as aerobics only. I am too old to learn the newer and much more effective fighting skill like BJJ, MMA. I live in N Calif in the bayarea, but what is the point of getting together on this. If I have the body, I would much rather find a BJJ school to work on it instead of talking about who punch harder and faster!!! But I am too old and too injured for any of that. I just do my heavy bags and stick fight as aerobics. Speaking of self defense, stick fight is so so much more effective than bare knuckles, I don't even think about bare knuckles much anymore. Like I said, I am slow, you just cannot be too fast when getting close to 70. I join in because I read the tittle and I share my experience.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Bad Rutten is an expert with that palm strike. It is very effective. Nothing wrong with that. We were really just discussing whether it can be done(fist to face)without breaking the hand. I say it can because I have done it. Some  people disagree with me, and to make their point, they suggest I am just talking falsely. If anyone reads the entirety of what I post, I said over and over just don’t strike the rounded parts of the skull. That’s where the hammer fist and palm strikes are useful.


I only join reading the first  post and starting from my first post. I did not see hammer fist and palm strikes, it must be before I join in. *Hammer fist is good,* but need to be closer than punching. But you don't worry about breaking knuckles. I taught my grand daughter using hammer fist. For close distance, I rather use elbows and knees.

Palm strikes is questionable.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> First all, I am not running you down, we are all too old for that already. You are NOT reading my post. I said do NOT assume anyone can land a perfect punch at the perfect spot. NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU ARE, there's always a faster person. All I am saying is toughen up the knuckles as insurance in case one miss and hit the forehead resulting in breaking the knuckles.
> 
> I did not say I am fast, I am slow. I did post a video of punching and kicking heavy bag, nothing to write home about. I am slow, so I practice in case I miss and hit the forehead. It's a good insurance.
> 
> Honestly, I treat kick boxing as aerobics only. I am too old to learn the newer and much more effective fighting skill like BJJ, MMA. I live in N Calif in the bayarea, but what is the point of getting together on this. If I have the body, I would much rather find a BJJ school to work on it instead of talking about who punch harder and faster!!! But I am too old and too injured for any of that. I just do my heavy bags and stick fight as aerobics. Speaking of self defense, stick fight is so so much more effective than bare knuckles, I don't even think about bare knuckles much anymore. Like I said, I am slow, you just cannot be too fast when getting close to 70. I join in because I read the tittle and I share my experience.


I can always learn something from other people, maybe your knuckle conditioning exercise is valuable to me. I invited you because it’s too much to type to describe something like a teaching method on a forum setting. I also invited you because it sounded like you think I’m a bullshiner, I believe maybe I can give you something useful no matter your age. My Sigung was incredibly fast even in his late eighties, far and away faster than I ever was in my best day. You can also meet my training brothers and my students, it isn’t me, it’s the teaching method, that’s what our system is at its most basic foundation. Am I the best? Certainly not, but what/how I teach is legitimate and potentially useful to anyone including accomplished martial artists. It isn’t my creation, it’s James Wing Woo’s teaching system. I am one inheritor of the system. My offer stands if you ever pass through humboldt county, please feel welcome.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I only join reading the first  post and starting from my first post. I did not see hammer fist and palm strikes, it must be before I join in. *Hammer fist is good,* but need to be closer than punching. But you don't worry about breaking knuckles. I taught my grand daughter using hammer fist. For close distance, I rather use elbows and knees.
> 
> Palm strikes is questionable.


Watch Bas Rutten vs Frank Shamrock. Bas is quite able to make palm strikes work. I too prefer elbow/knee.


----------



## Doc (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> A boxers fracture is of the fifth metacarpal, not the first. I have had more than one street fight, and never broke a knuckle from a punching impact. It’s easy to avoid by knowing how to make a fist correctly, and not punching the rounded parts of the skull with knuckles. The facial parts of the skull are quite thin compared to the cranium, the bones behind the face plates have the consistency of potato chips.


The nature of a "boxer's fracture" is characterized by various knuckles, not just a particular one. Now, you're trying to justify punching the head in a specific place in a fight, which is ludicrous. Anyone who is knowledgeable knows when you attempt to punch the head you miss more than you hit, so in a street venue anticipating that kind of accuracy is folly. This is especially true when you understand that a boxing fracture occurs because boxers are unaccustomed to making a proper clenched fist outside of training or competing, which contributes to the breaking of hands in a street confrontation when punching to the head. To suggest and extrapolate what you say are "your street fights" without breaking your hand has nothing to do with reality, and if you're having that many street fights and it is not an occupational hazard, it suggests other things to me. Your experience is your experience, but it doesn't change the medical facts.

Dr. Chapél


----------



## Doc (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, breaking board is dumb, but the effect on the bone is real. Like I said, I wore bag glove to punch. It has 1/4" padding, better cushioning than the skin on the skull. I don't do board breaking, just play around that time and that hurt.
> 
> You cannot punch with soft hands all the way. You relax the hand, only squeeze at the target point at the last moment. That's very basic thing in punching, nothing new. BUT you still need to squeeze at the last moment at contact. Of cause I did that, still break my knuckle bad.
> 
> ...


My reference to "hitting the hard with soft, and the soft with hard" was an Ed Parker Sr. reference to weapons choices in confrontation. You don't hit a hard bone (head) with a weaker collection of bones (clenched fist), because it is not intelligent and has a greater chance of creating an injury. He meant to hit the head and associated area with an open hand and punch the softer body parts. No one trains to punch and punching power more than a boxer, and yet the medical term "boxer's fracture" has presented itself enough to be in the medical lexicon of medicine, so the term exists for a reason and oddly enough, it rarely occurs in the ring.


----------



## Doc (Aug 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> First all, I am not running you down, we are all too old for that already. You are NOT reading my post. I said do NOT assume anyone can land a perfect punch at the perfect spot. NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU ARE, there's always a faster person. All I am saying is toughen up the knuckles as insurance in case one miss and hit the forehead resulting in breaking the knuckles.
> 
> I did not say I am fast, I am slow. I did post a video of punching and kicking heavy bag, nothing to write home about. I am slow, so I practice in case I miss and hit the forehead. It's a good insurance.
> 
> Honestly, I treat kick boxing as aerobics only. I am too old to learn the newer and much more effective fighting skill like BJJ, MMA. I live in N Calif in the bayarea, but what is the point of getting together on this. If I have the body, I would much rather find a BJJ school to work on it instead of talking about who punch harder and faster!!! But I am too old and too injured for any of that. I just do my heavy bags and stick fight as aerobics. Speaking of self defense, stick fight is so so much more effective than bare knuckles, I don't even think about bare knuckles much anymore. Like I said, I am slow, you just cannot be too fast when getting close to 70. I join in because I read the tittle and I share my experience.


Preach.  I look at the youngsters and you would think they live in feudal Japan or ancient China. For those that don't have jobs, a family, and are independently wealthy I guess you can train like that.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Watch Bas Rutten vs Frank Shamrock. Bas is quite able to make palm strikes work. I too prefer elbow/knee.



I like palm and open hand techniques myself. 
I like elbows and knees. 
Yet, I will do others things as well, based upon all of my training and experience.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I can always learn something from other people, maybe your knuckle conditioning exercise is valuable to me. I invited you because it’s too much to type to describe something like a teaching method on a forum setting. I also invited you because it sounded like you think I’m a bullshiner, I believe maybe I can give you something useful no matter your age. My Sigung was incredibly fast even in his late eighties, far and away faster than I ever was in my best day. You can also meet my training brothers and my students, it isn’t me, it’s the teaching method, that’s what our system is at its most basic foundation. Am I the best? Certainly not, but what/how I teach is legitimate and potentially useful to anyone including accomplished martial artists. It isn’t my creation, it’s James Wing Woo’s teaching system. I am one inheritor of the system. My offer stands if you ever pass through humboldt county, please feel welcome.


Thanks for the invite. like I said, I really more treating this as aerobics, not trying to improve and all that anymore. Too old for that, and I am just glad I can still doing it with my back problem.

I just want to clear up, I don't know you, I am by no means putting you down. What I want to come across is no matter how good one is, there is always someone that is fast and cause one to miss. Punching the pole is just an INSURANCE in case one misses and hit the skull, hopefully the knuckle survive from the pole punching. Nothing more.

I join in this thread because I personally broke the knuckle and I know how long it take to recover and go back to hitting the bags. It is bad. That's why I join in to warn people how bad can that be if that happens to them. That people should put some effort in strengthening the knuckles. 

That's it, nothing more.

I know I am slow, it's even more important to have the "insurance".


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2022)

I forgot, notice I practice kicking the pole with shin and foot also because I saw this:

Chris Weidman BREAKS his leg in half

Scary!!! You can see the foot dangling!!!


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I forgot, notice I practice kicking the pole with shin and foot also because I saw this:
> 
> Chris Weidman BREAKS his leg in half
> 
> Scary!!! You can see the foot dangling!!!



Had that happen to a friend of mine. He had conditioned shins though.


----------



## Doc (Aug 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I think you think too highly of yourself and assume the other guy don't know anything. This is one thing I never get, you guys TALK fight, not fight.
> 
> Watch the UFC fight, look at how fast those people move. Don't assume you opponent just stand there. Give more credit to your opponent. Or you might be in with a brutal awakening.


If you can change direction during a punch, then you're not punching you're feinting. Anyone who makes that statement is not a fighter. An effective punch requires commitment significant to do damage and once committed cannot change direction. That's why when people miss sometimes they stumble and even fall down sometimes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in the M.F.L. Martial Fantasy league.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Doc said:


> The nature of a "boxer's fracture" is characterized by various knuckles, not just a particular one. Now, you're trying to justify punching the head in a specific place in a fight, which is ludicrous. Anyone who is knowledgeable knows when you attempt to punch the head you miss more than you hit, so in a street venue anticipating that kind of accuracy is folly. This is especially true when you understand that a boxing fracture occurs because boxers are unaccustomed to making a proper clenched fist outside of training or competing, which contributes to the breaking of hands in a street confrontation when punching to the head. To suggest and extrapolate what you say are "your street fights" without breaking your hand has nothing to do with reality, and if you're having that many street fights and it is not an occupational hazard, it suggests other things to me. Your experience is your experience, but it doesn't change the medical facts.
> 
> Dr. Chapél


What kind of Dr are you? MD?


Doc said:


> If you can change direction during a punch, then you're not punching you're feinting. Anyone who makes that statement is not a fighter. An effective punch requires commitment significant to do damage and once committed cannot change direction. That's why when people miss sometimes they stumble and even fall down sometimes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in the M.F.L. Martial Fantasy league.





Doc said:


> The nature of a "boxer's fracture" is characterized by various knuckles, not just a particular one. Now, you're trying to justify punching the head in a specific place in a fight, which is ludicrous. Anyone who is knowledgeable knows when you attempt to punch the head you miss more than you hit, so in a street venue anticipating that kind of accuracy is folly. This is especially true when you understand that a boxing fracture occurs because boxers are unaccustomed to making a proper clenched fist outside of training or competing, which contributes to the breaking of hands in a street confrontation when punching to the head. To suggest and extrapolate what you say are "your street fights" without breaking your hand has nothing to do with reality, and if you're having that many street fights and it is not an occupational hazard, it suggests other things to me. Your experience is your experience, but it doesn't change the medical facts.
> 
> Dr. Chapél


You are not correct. You are obviously not a surgeon. If you are unable to target or change direction, I’m sorry that you weren’t trained well. Maybe you should have trained with Woo instead of Parker. You dont know a thing about me or what I’ve done. I don’t care what you extrapolate from things you don’t know. You obviously don’t know the medical facts. What surgical experience do you have that you base these false “facts“ on? I have near to 20 years in an operating room fixing these things.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I forgot, notice I practice kicking the pole with shin and foot also because I saw this:
> 
> Chris Weidman BREAKS his leg in half
> 
> Scary!!! You can see the foot dangling!!!


Yeah it’s a terrible injury.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Doc said:


> If you can change direction during a punch, then you're not punching you're feinting. Anyone who makes that statement is not a fighter. An effective punch requires commitment significant to do damage and once committed cannot change direction. That's why when people miss sometimes they stumble and even fall down sometimes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in the M.F.L. Martial Fantasy league.


Of course people miss, no surprise there. You are right I’m not a fighter. I never claimed to be a fighter. I said I have been in several fights. I said I have successfully punched people in the face without breaking anything in my body. I said I can change direction, which is true. I defined a boxer fracture because I have assisted in the repair of dozens of them and their corresponding injuries.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yeah it’s a terrible injury.


I don't know what I am doing kicking pole will help, but at least I have a better chance than if I don't. This is one kick I use. Scary.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know what I am doing kicking pole will help, but at least I have a better chance than if I don't. This is one kick I use. Scary.


I honestly don’t know either. It is scary to see someone’s leg wrap around another. I wouldn’t have believed it if i hadn’t seen it. It makes me wonder if he might have had an injury or hairline fracture previous to the incident. It could be that there is an underlying pathology there that we don’t know about. Impossible to say. I don’t want any more injuries, I have plenty of old ones that still bother me.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Doc said:


> If you can change direction during a punch, then you're not punching you're feinting. Anyone who makes that statement is not a fighter. An effective punch requires commitment significant to do damage and once committed cannot change direction. That's why when people miss sometimes they stumble and even fall down sometimes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in the M.F.L. Martial Fantasy league.


🤣


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I honestly don’t know either. It is scary to see someone’s leg wrap around another. I wouldn’t have believed it if i hadn’t seen it. It makes me wonder if he might have had an injury or hairline fracture previous to the incident. It could be that there is an underlying pathology there that we don’t know about. Impossible to say. I don’t want any more injuries, I have plenty of old ones that still bother me.


Ha ha, that's why I am paying insurance!!! I don't know whether it will help, but it's only 2 mins, twice a week. I don't do anything more than in the video, that's it. I am not into breaking boards. I think I did that like 2 or 4 times in the past before I did the final time that broke my knuckle. The difference is the other times, I punched down with boards set up on the floor like what other people do. The time I broke my knuckle, I tied the board holder on a heavy bag to punch horizontally. Because I expect the bag moves, I punch all out, that there goes my knuckle!!! (.

I never dare to punch boards since, never dare to anymore. Don't want to know whether punching pole helps or not!!!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Ha ha, that's why I am paying insurance!!! I don't know whether it will help, but it's only 2 mins, twice a week. I don't do anything more than in the video, that's it. I am not into breaking boards. I think I did that like 2 or 4 times in the past before I did the final time that broke my knuckle. The difference is the other times, I punched down with boards set up on the floor like what other people do. The time I broke my knuckle, I tied the board holder on a heavy bag to punch horizontally. Because I expect the bag moves, I punch all out, that there goes my knuckle!!! (.
> 
> I never dare to punch boards since, never dare to anymore. Don't want to know whether punching pole helps or not!!!


I never did much board breaking, I have seen boards and bricks broken. Some were impressive, some not so much...


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Had that happen to a friend of mine. He had conditioned shins though.


Your friend broke his leg on a kick? I broke my foot on a buddies shin that checked my kick. I had to learn that hard lesson twice. Same foot, same guy, same shin. He is still my very close friend.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I never did much board breaking, I have seen boards and bricks broken. Some were impressive, some not so much...


I am not, you know how a little drink kind of help too that time!!!


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Your friend broke his leg on a kick? I broke my foot on a buddies shin that checked my kick. I had to learn that hard lesson twice. Same foot, same guy, same shin. He is still my very close friend.


Any experiment should be run multiple times before you can be certain of the results.  The first few times might just be an anomoly…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Any experiment should be run multiple times before you can be certain of the results.  The first few times might just be an anomoly…


Or, I’m just a dummy.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am not, you know how a little drink kind of help too that time!!!


Hmm? A drink? I don’t get your meaning.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Hmm? A drink? I don’t get your meaning.


In did the board breaking after a few drinks(alcohol) with my stepsons.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> In did the board breaking after a few drinks(alcohol) with my stepsons.


Oh I get it.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Oh I get it.


Big mistake!!! I since put the whole setup away.

FYI, the boards and holder I was talking about are those reusable boards that you break, then slide the two half back together and you break it again. I somehow bought them in the 90s. Used it for a few times, after broke my knuckle, they all went into the shed.

I even bought a board holder, it can hold like 6 or more boards together, you can hold the whole thing for people to break and you don't have to worry about people kicking your fingers by mistake. You know how it takes a few people to hold the stack of board for the demonstrator to kick or punch. Those people must be afraid it the guy missed and kick their fingers!!!

The holder even have strap so you can strap it onto a heavy bag to break boards solo by yourself.

The whole setup is in the shed since. Forget it. I punch pole, but I am not going to try that anymore. I have a suspicion those re-breakable boards are harder to break than the real boards particularly you stack them up with no space in between.( day and night difference if they put a little space between boards, they do that in shows so they can break a whole big stack of boards. If they don't put space in between, I double they can break even half or less, it's like you break the first one, the momentum keep going to the second and the third and so on).


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 25, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Big mistake!!! I since put the whole setup away.
> 
> FYI, the boards and holder I was talking about are those reusable boards that you break, then slide the two half back together and you break it again. I somehow bought them in the 90s. Used it for a few times, after broke my knuckle, they all went into the shed.
> 
> ...


Yes the spacers are just a trick. I saw a big guy stack bricks with no spacers and break the one you ask for in the stack. I suspect trickery but I couldn’t see how.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yes the spacers are just a trick. I saw a big guy stack bricks with no spacers and break the one you ask for in the stack. I suspect trickery but I couldn’t see how.


Ha ha, that's beyond me. But that's impressing.


----------



## Barry Drennan (Aug 25, 2022)

Speaking from 51 years of unofficial and official involvement in striking faces/heads/and the occasional helmet; I definitely support this thread's general theme that naked closed fist knuckle punches can for various results result in damages and broken hands. As an instructor in WWII Combatives (Fairbairn Gutter Fighting) my concern goes more to after the fact of damaging hands than to the fact of damaged hands. IF general practitioner or competitive fighter breaks or badly damages his hand they can also chose to stop at the very moment and go home. However for self-defense, doorman, security, LEO, Private Contractor, military situations, where the now is a life-threat, the greater concern is how to continue. This "How to continue" concern applies to the continuance of unarmed-combat, weapons and tech handling, certain scenario of mobility issues e.g. climbing, scrambling, crawling, fast returns to vertical from horizontal. Failures in all of these increase survival-risk-probabilities. The then begs the question; "Why use the naked closed fist as a go-to, when there of other more functional lees vulnerable methods available".?


----------



## Buka (Aug 25, 2022)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Barry. Hope you like it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Does anyone have experience hitting someone in the face in self-defense with a closed fist? I'm talking about striking with the knuckles, not a hammer fist or anything.


Of course. I'm betting most here have.


Jared Traveler said:


> Have you been witness to this event?


I think it's safe to say I've seen the aftermath (if not the actual punch) a few thousand times.


Jared Traveler said:


> Did the striker break his hand?


Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Mostly no. Sometimes they get a fight bite, and I see them with NASTY infections. That's generally worse than a boxers fracture. For real fun, try getting the fight bite AND a boxers fracture. Osteomyelitis is sooooo much fun.


Jared Traveler said:


> Do you see closed fist strikes to an opponents face as a viable technique for self-defense? Do you feel confident and plan on using a closed fist?


Of course. But I caution students to avoid punching someone in the mouth. It's not really all that effective, and fight bites can be really difficult to treat.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 25, 2022)

Barry Drennan said:


> Speaking from 51 years of unofficial and official involvement in striking faces/heads/and the occasional helmet; I definitely support this thread's general theme that naked closed fist knuckle punches can for various results result in damages and broken hands. As an instructor in WWII Combatives (Fairbairn Gutter Fighting) my concern goes more to after the fact of damaging hands than to the fact of damaged hands. IF general practitioner or competitive fighter breaks or badly damages his hand they can also chose to stop at the very moment and go home. However for self-defense, doorman, security, LEO, Private Contractor, military situations, where the now is a life-threat, the greater concern is how to continue. This "How to continue" concern applies to the continuance of unarmed-combat, weapons and tech handling, certain scenario of mobility issues e.g. climbing, scrambling, crawling, fast returns to vertical from horizontal. Failures in all of these increase survival-risk-probabilities. The then begs the question; "Why use the naked closed fist as a go-to, when there of other more functional lees vulnerable methods available".?


Welcome!


----------



## Buka (Aug 26, 2022)

To me, the biggest problem are basics.  We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.

But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.

I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> To me, the biggest problem are basics.  We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.
> 
> But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.
> 
> I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.


I am going to be willing to bet you punched someone in the face during your years of not breaking your hand. It’s amazing to me when experienced martial artists practically claim it can’t be done. I must be the luckiest guy around in that case.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> To me, the biggest problem are basics.  We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.
> 
> But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.
> 
> I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.


As I said earlier I broke my hand during a sweep/throw but never from punching. I’ve had my bell rung plenty of times to be sure. I’m not sure if anybody broke their hand on me. It’s possible.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> To me, the biggest problem are basics.  We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.
> 
> But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.
> 
> I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.



I think there is an issue throwing overhands as  well. If you keep the shots a little shorter and cleaner they seem to be friendlier on the old knucks


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> As I said earlier I broke my hand during a sweep/throw but never from punching. I’ve had my bell rung plenty of times to be sure. I’m not sure if anybody broke their hand on me. It’s possible.



A lot of ours was from jits. I fell straight on my finger and was in a cast for a couple of weeks. 

It would not have been fight ending. I drove to the hospital with it.


----------



## Buka (Aug 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think there is an issue throwing overhands as  well. If you keep the shots a little shorter and cleaner they seem to be friendlier on the old knucks


I think you're right. The shorter the punch the easier it is to naturally keep your form. When I say "naturally" I mean without even thinking about it.

One of the challenges I faced was in boxing. I went to the best boxing gym around our parts, a good old fashioned boxing gym owned and run by a retired pro boxer.

The trainers, all of them there, taught left hooks (or right) where you hit with the smaller two knuckles. Our hands were wrapped and taped, of course, but I still wouldn't do it. I used to alter my hook punch and throw it with a vertical punch rather than a horizontal one, hitting only with my middle knuckle. Every boxing trainer I met, from a lot of different boxing gyms, taught it the same way. I still disagree with it. Because that's how you break your hands. It's why it's called a "boxer's fracture."

It worked well for me, never hurt my hand, landed a lot of hooks. I like really short hook punches. Probably why I like just what you said, "keeping the shots a little shorter."

The gym had a small ring, under sixteen foot. It gave you no room to run, made you really focus on technique and shorter punches.

The gym was there for a lot of years. Then Boston got two weeks of torrential rain, real end of the world stuff. The ceiling collapsed. Downstairs where the lockers were flooded to six feet deep. The building had to be condemned. I actually cried.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> The trainers, all of them there, taught left hooks (or right) where you hit with the smaller two knuckles. Our hands were wrapped and taped, of course, but I still wouldn't do it. I used to alter my hook punch and throw it with a vertical punch rather than a horizontal one, hitting only with my middle knuckle. Every boxing trainer I met, from a lot of different boxing gyms, taught it the same way. I still disagree with it. Because that's how you break your hands. It's why it's called a "boxer's fracture."
> 
> It worked well for me, never hurt my hand, landed a lot of hooks. I like really short hook punches. Probably why I like just what you said, "keeping the shots a little shorter."


I agree.  All you need to do is train that hook on a heavy bag, without any wraps or gloves or support or protection for the hands.  With the horizontal fist, it is very easy to land with the last knuckles, and that risks injury.  You can feel that potential on the bag, even if you don’t get injured.  

Vertical fist is better.  Avoids the injury much better.  That is how you need to train it if you might need to use it outside the ring, without wraps and gloves.


----------



## Buka (Aug 26, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I agree.  All you need to do is train that hook on a heavy bag, without any wraps or gloves or support or protection for the hands.  With the horizontal fist, it is very easy to land with the last knuckles, and that risks injury.  You can feel that potential on the bag, even if you don’t get injured.
> 
> Vertical fist is better.  Avoids the injury much better.  That is how you need to train it if you might need to use it outside the ring, without wraps and gloves.


Sort of a funny story....

I used to tournament fight when I was young. Tons of them. There was an EMT that worked the big tourneys, Ted, a great guy.

I went to him one day and said, "Hey, Ted, can you tape my hands?"

He said, "sure, two bucks." To this day he taped hands better than anyone else I've ever met.

People didn't tape their hands for point tournaments. But soon, everyone was coming up to me asking, "Hey, who taped your hands?"

I'd reply, "Teddy did, it's awesome, feel them." They would.

Within a month, and to this day, or so I'm told (because he's still at it) Teddy was taping everyone's hands. He made a ton of extra cash. And I'm glad. It I were hurt I'd rather have Ted taking care of me than any doctor I've ever met.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> To me, the biggest problem are basics.  We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.
> 
> But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.
> 
> I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.


That's why I put a lot of time on heavy bags, always starting out slow and light to check for all the basic stuffs. Like right now, I feel I did something wrong with my right front kick, something don't feel right. This morning, I actually got on the bag, did in slow motion and went through that slowly.

Punching and front kicks look easy, I find those are the hardest to get it right. Side kick and particular round kicks are much easier even though they look fancier. 

And one cannot take for granted even after they got it right. I have been working with heavy bag for decades, but for the longest time, I just did it as aerobics and not really checking. I was surprised how sloppy I got through the years. It's only in the last year and half that I started to double checked what I am doing. I was surprised when I video taped my bag work, I even posted the video here a while back. It was not good and I had to literally started from scratch again, going slow, light and work my way back.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 26, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I agree.  All you need to do is train that hook on a heavy bag, without any wraps or gloves or support or protection for the hands.  With the horizontal fist, it is very easy to land with the last knuckles, and that risks injury.  You can feel that potential on the bag, even if you don’t get injured.
> 
> Vertical fist is better.  Avoids the injury much better.  That is how you need to train it if you might need to use it outside the ring, without wraps and gloves.


I punch pole both with the first two knuckles and the last two knuckles. I do use WC punches that use the last two knuckles.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 26, 2022)

I broke my Wrist roller skating before I learned anything in martial arts. It was at a rink and in the 70's. So no safety gear. 

I have also broken my right index finger, in practice numerous times. 
People drop the tips of their canes and you get hit. 
Some say it is good to practice for the hands and it can be. 
Yet, they never seem to want to volunteer to have their hands hits. 

So it was broken and healed a little off. The Doctor said the could rebreak it and set it and then "frog" tape it and let it heal. I told him I would do it myself, and he laughed and said no you won't. 

I few weeks later in class a new student was hitting my hands. I asked them to raise the tips of their canes. They did not and after the third or fourth hit I heard and felt it snap a little. I said stop and stepped back. 
I then twisted and set it straight. 
The Student feinted to the mat. 
Instructor yelled asking why I had stopped. 
I replied to set a broken bone. 
His response, Class you can stop without me saying so to set your own bones. 

Then he asked, why is your partner on the ground? 
He feinted sir. 
I walked over and got my finger brace and taped it up. 

Doctor saw it later and asked who did it. 
I explained what happened and he was not impressed nor happy. 
Yet after a check out and x-ray he had to admit It was fine. 

No, I have never broken my hand punching people even in the face. 
After a few teeth (And I mean a tooth in my hand) and bite marks I changed to more open hand.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> Sort of a funny story....
> 
> I used to tournament fight when I was young. Tons of them. There was an EMT that worked the big tourneys, Ted, a great guy.
> 
> ...


That’s a good story.  Thanks for sharing it.

I’ve seen boxing put on something of a pedestal as a striking art.  It is what they specialize in, so the assumption is that they do it all the best.  But I think this point highlights a shortcoming in terms of translating boxing skills into self-defense outside of the ring.  A boxing match requires wrapping and gloves for the safety of the competitors.  So it makes sense for a competitive boxer to train with wraps and gloves.  First, they need to be accustomed to wearing that gear, which, like anything, feels awkward until you get used to it.  Second, it allows for a higher intensity of bag work during training, to avoid possible injuries during that process.  

But if you have no interest in competing and your skills are meant for the rare possibility of self defense, you need to be able to rely on your punching without the protection of wraps and gloves.  Your assailant won’t let you wrap up and glove up before he proceeds with the beating he intends to give you.  You need to trust that you can hit that guy with a low possibility of injuring your own hand in the process.  So you need to train on the heavy bag without that protection.  That is a skill that requires work and repetition.  

Funny, on another forum I found myself in a strange debate with a fellow who claimed that the heavy bag was actually invented by boxers (a claim that I do not believe), so their methods on the bag are the only right way to approach it, and so therefor you must use wraps and gloves on the bag or you are simply doing it wrong and you are all but guaranteed to injure yourself.  I explained that I have been hitting the bag for decades without wraps and gloves and have never been injured.  I also acknowledged that you cannot hit the bag with the same intensity or with sessions lasting as long if you don’t wrap, but that does not negate the value in the training.  The purpose is different, so the training is different.  But there was an unwillingness to even entertain the notion.  

It was an odd discussion.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> I think you're right. The shorter the punch the easier it is to naturally keep your form. When I say "naturally" I mean without even thinking about it.
> 
> One of the challenges I faced was in boxing. I went to the best boxing gym around our parts, a good old fashioned boxing gym owned and run by a retired pro boxer.
> 
> ...



I rotate my hand to hit with the bigger knuckles at distance. So thumb upto thumb down depending where I am.


----------



## Buka (Aug 26, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> That’s a good story.  Thanks for sharing it.
> 
> I’ve seen boxing put on something of a pedestal as a striking art.  It is what they specialize in, so the assumption is that they do it all the best.  But I think this point highlights a shortcoming in terms of translating boxing skills into self-defense outside of the ring.  A boxing match requires wrapping and gloves for the safety of the competitors.  So it makes sense for a competitive boxer to train with wraps and gloves.  First, they need to be accustomed to wearing that gear, which, like anything, feels awkward until you get used to it.  Second, it allows for a higher intensity of bag work during training, to avoid possible injuries during that process.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but it was a cool discussion. 

I was head ref at a point tournament once. Billy Blanks was fighting, this was before I trained with him.

He used to do crazy things, the guy could jump like nobody I've ever seen. So, he throws this flying whatchamacallit kick, his big toe gets caught in the collar of his opponents gi. Before he comes down he hits the guy in the face with his other foot. Okay, cool, point.

But after the point is called he says, "Hey, Ref, can you fix my safety Kick, please?"

So I kneel down to attend his safety kick. His big toe is upside down. The nail is flat on the floor and the fat bottom part of his big toe is looking right at me. He says, "Just grab it, pull and turn it."

I'm about to when he says, "And turn it THAT way." He indicates which way, thank God, because I was going to twist it the other way.

So I kiai, yank and turn his toe right side up again. He says "thanks" and goes back to the line. He fought four more times and won them all.

The thought still kind of creeps me out. But I started training with him the flooring week.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Aug 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m not sure if anybody broke their hand on me


I came close to breaking my hand landing a light sparring body punch on Benny U.  I did not expect hitting something that solid. 


Buka said:


> The trainers, all of them there, taught left hooks (or right) where you hit with the smaller two knuckles.


I agree, not good, especially un-taped.  I reached around a little too wide (trying to be cute) to land a left hook to the body (of my brown belt student and skeet shooting friend) and ended up contacting with the small knuckles and fingers.  Couldn't make a fist for over a week.

It did not go unnoticed that both these times were during informal friendly sparring.  Certain basics cannot be compromised.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> A lot of ours was from jits. I fell straight on my finger and was in a cast for a couple of weeks.
> 
> It would not have been fight ending. I drove to the hospital with it.


Hurt like the dickens? I bet there was language in the car.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 27, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I came close to breaking my hand landing a light sparring body punch on Benny U.  I did not expect hitting something that solid.
> 
> I agree, not good, especially un-taped.  I reached around a little too wide (trying to be cute) to land a left hook to the body (of my brown belt student and skeet shooting friend) and ended up contacting with the small knuckles and fingers.  Couldn't make a fist for over a week.
> 
> It did not go unnoticed that both these times were during informal friendly sparring.  Certain basics cannot be compromised.


I have jammed my right thumb by getting punched there several times. That thumb was never broken but was bent back far enough that the nail touched my wrist. It took eighteen months to recover it to about 80% hurts like heck in winter or when I jam it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 28, 2022)

drop bear said:


> A lot of ours was from jits. I fell straight on my finger and was in a cast for a couple of weeks.


A cast for a broken finger? That's odd. Normally you just splint fingers. And if there was a fracture in the hand, rather than the finger itself, a couple weeks in a cast would be inadequate.


drop bear said:


> It would not have been fight ending. I drove to the hospital with it.


Sure. Lots of things that people assume will end a fight, don't necessarily do so. I've seen any number of people walk around on distal fibula fractures for days. Admittedly, the fibula isn't really weight bearing, but it still hurts like the dickens. I was once sparring three students at once. I was paying more attention to the roundhouse kick to one students head than blocking another students front kick. Classic boxers fracture. I finished the round. Took my gloves off. The bone was tenting, so I reduced it and went back to the lesson. On the way home, my wife noticed I was palming the wheel instead of holding it. She scolded me... Went home, iced it, took a nap and went to work. Once it started to slow down, I got one of the rad techs to shoot a picture for me. The distal 1/3 was busted off. The proximal 2/3 was split legthwise.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> A cast for a broken finger? That's odd. Normally you just splint fingers. And if there was a fracture in the hand, rather than the finger itself, a couple weeks in a cast would be inadequate.



In the hand. A spiral fracture.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Aug 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Classic boxers fracture. I finished the round. Took my gloves off. The bone was tenting, so I reduced it and went back to the lesson. On the way home, my wife noticed I was palming the wheel instead of holding it. She scolded me...


I can't count the times I've had to hide bruises (I'm on blood thinners so they look worse than they are) from my wife. She is very protective.  Kind of cute, but I don't like to worry her.  Luckily, at our age she doesn't look that closely at me anymore .


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> In the hand. A spiral fracture.


Good times.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 29, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I can't count the times I've had to hide bruises (I'm on blood thinners so they look worse than they are) from my wife. She is very protective.  Kind of cute, but I don't like to worry her.  Luckily, at our age she doesn't look that closely at me anymore .


Tattoo hides any bruising I might get, my wife would just tell me to quit whining and walk it off anyway.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> A cast for a broken finger? That's odd. Normally you just splint fingers. And if there was a fracture in the hand, rather than the finger itself, a couple weeks in a cast would be inadequate.
> 
> Sure. Lots of things that people assume will end a fight, don't necessarily do so. I've seen any number of people walk around on distal fibula fractures for days. Admittedly, the fibula isn't really weight bearing, but it still hurts like the dickens. I was once sparring three students at once. I was paying more attention to the roundhouse kick to one students head than blocking another students front kick. Classic boxers fracture. I finished the round. Took my gloves off. The bone was tenting, so I reduced it and went back to the lesson. On the way home, my wife noticed I was palming the wheel instead of holding it. She scolded me... Went home, iced it, took a nap and went to work. Once it started to slow down, I got one of the rad techs to shoot a picture for me. The distal 1/3 was busted off. The proximal 2/3 was split legthwise.


I reduced my 4th metacarpal myself.  It is straight but a bit shorter that it used to be. I took the rads myself at the vet. I have seen my good friend Mambo Bonsaei keep fighting after being stabbed eleven times. The Ambulances took the three stabbers to the ED. Mambo got a ride from a friend. He was stabbed in chest, back, shoulder, and through the right hand . Mambo is a rather big fella but it was incredible to watch him take those three guys apart while they were stabbing him. I was on the other side of a chain link fence with concertina wire on top and could not get to him fast enough. Turned out ok. He heals like the hulk and the knives weren’t able to get any vitals. One of the most brutal fights I have ever seen. He had thrown them out of a club we worked at the weekend before. They underestimated what would happen.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> In the hand. A spiral fracture.


A couple week seems really inadequate. Spiral carpal fractures are quite often surgical, and when not, you'd typically be looking at more like 6 weeks in a cast.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> A couple week seems really inadequate. Spiral carpal fractures are quite often surgical, and when not, you'd typically be looking at more like 6 weeks in a cast.


Mine was around eight weeks and I felt lucky at that. The PT was another eight weeks. No contact punches for 6 months total. Putting on button fly Levi jeans was difficult for a while.


----------



## Buka (Aug 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Mine was around eight weeks and I felt lucky at that. The PT was another eight weeks. No contact punches for 6 months total. Putting on button fly Levi jeans was difficult for a while.


I swear "button fly jeans" were invented by a woman who's generally angry at men.


----------

