# WSL wing chun



## kakkattekoi (Jan 8, 2016)

Came across this video just now, I felt that the chi sau shown here (the first few shot) seems different from the WSL lineage today 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=711530568905738


----------



## KPM (Jan 8, 2016)

Cool video!  Thanks for sharing!  But what do you find different about the Chi Sau?  There is maybe a little less emphasis on the "Bong-Lop" motion that we see in some modern examples, but otherwise looks the same to me.


----------



## kakkattekoi (Jan 8, 2016)

KPM said:


> Cool video!  Thanks for sharing!  But what do you find different about the Chi Sau?  There is maybe a little less emphasis on the "Bong-Lop" motion that we see in some modern examples, but otherwise looks the same to me.



It seems to me that the chi sau from the video stand further apart while nowadays are standing much closer

Difference as in "Long bridge" & "short bridge"


----------



## geezer (Jan 8, 2016)

kakkattekoi said:


> It seems to me that the chi sau from the video stand further apart while nowadays are standing much closer
> 
> Difference as in "Long bridge" & "short bridge"



Do you train both? In our VT we roll at both ranges. I tend to favor "short bridge". One of my instructors always encourages me to spend more time at the "long bridge" range.


----------



## kakkattekoi (Jan 8, 2016)

geezer said:


> Do you train both? In our VT we roll at both ranges. I tend to favor "short bridge". One of my instructors always encourages me to spend more time at the "long bridge" range.



tried both, but personally prefer with long bridge combined with foot work


----------



## guy b. (Jan 9, 2016)

geezer said:


> Do you train both? In our VT we roll at both ranges. I tend to favor "short bridge". One of my instructors always encourages me to spend more time at the "long bridge" range.



What is long bridge range? Do you mean more wrist than elbow?


----------



## geezer (Jan 9, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What is long bridge range? Do you mean more wrist than elbow?



I'm not totally sure what you mean since either way we make contact at the wrists, but that sounds about right. "Long Bridge" in this context would mean with the arms more extended, using footwork to close as you attack, while "Short Bridge" would be rolling closer to your partner with the arms bent more sharply so that you can more easily hit directly without advancing footwork, or with just a very short _yap bo_ step. The clips I've seen of WSL VT chi-sau seem to favor this range. IMO both ranges can be used to train valuable attributes.


----------



## kakkattekoi (Jan 9, 2016)

geezer said:


> Do you train both? In our VT we roll at both ranges. I tend to favor "short bridge". One of my instructors always encourages me to spend more time at the "long bridge" range.



May I know which lineage you are from? As you mentioned almost all the clips n trainers I came across are using short bridge only


----------



## geezer (Jan 9, 2016)

kakkattekoi said:


> May I know which lineage you are from? As you mentioned almost all the clips n trainers I came across are using short bridge only



Sure. My foundation was with Leung Ting in the 1980s. I now train with the NVTO ...and some with DTE/MMA.


Here's literally the first clip that popped up on Youtube with a couple of guys from the same lineage, Emin Boztepe and Michael Casey. In this clip they start at what I'd call "long-bridge" and then use footwork to close as Emin moves in to beat on Michael at medium to short-bridge range, then they reset and repeat. The couple of times I worked with Emin way back, it wasn't really chi-sau. More like being a punching bag! Thank god he was holding back.


----------



## kakkattekoi (Jan 9, 2016)

geezer said:


> Sure. My foundation was with Leung Ting in the 1980s. I now train with the NVTO ...and some with DTE/MMA.
> 
> 
> Here's literally the first clip that popped up on Youtube with a couple of guys from the same lineage, Emin Boztepe and Michael Casey. In this clip they start at what I'd call "long-bridge" and then use footwork to close as Emin moves in to beat on Michael at medium to short-bridge range, then they reset and repeat. The couple of times I worked with Emin way back, it wasn't really chi-sau. More like being a punching bag! Thank god he was holding back.



Awesome video!
Not often to see long bridge


----------



## guy b. (Jan 10, 2016)

geezer said:


> I'm not totally sure what you mean since either way we make contact at the wrists, but that sounds about right. "Long Bridge" in this context would mean with the arms more extended, using footwork to close as you attack, while "Short Bridge" would be rolling closer to your partner with the arms bent more sharply so that you can more easily hit directly without advancing footwork, or with just a very short _yap bo_ step. The clips I've seen of WSL VT chi-sau seem to favor this range. IMO both ranges can be used to train valuable attributes.



You don't train a fixed elbow position?


----------



## wckf92 (Jan 10, 2016)

Question for the WSL'ers out there...
Of all the people WSL taught, who among them (in your opinion) were taught the complete WSL curriculum and are representing the WSL method to the best of their ability?
And are any of them teaching in the US?

*I'm asking this because from reading posts/threads/responses over the years, it seems some WSL folks have opinions on instructors / Sifu's inside their own lineage as having been taught via seminars or only via occasional contact with WSL...

Thanks.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 10, 2016)

guy b. said:


> You don't train a fixed elbow position?


Yes, but only when drilling for that particular position.
Then we drill for a different position. In my training we allow the elbow to be used at the distance and/or height needed and just a single particular point in space in relation to my centerline. The immobile elbow is not a fixed position for us.


----------



## geezer (Jan 10, 2016)

guy b. said:


> You don't train a fixed elbow position?



Fixed elbow? You mean elbow _angle?_ The "ideal" angle in training is said to be about 120-135 degrees (that is if you carry a protractor  ). But in actual application, _there can be no fixed position_. In our system, _bong is a bent spring_. It's  bent or bowed inwards by our opponent's oncoming force, then springs back out when released. Consequently the amount of bend or flex in the bong is ever changing and adjusting ....like a cars springs as you drive on a bumpy road.

Now we do not totally reject the well known concept of _but doan jarn _or "immovable elbow", it just doesn't apply here ...at least in our lineage. The "springy" nature of bong, tan, etc. is one of the defining attributes of our lineage and one of the reasons my old sifu actually preferred to consider his branch as a distinct system apart from other WC/VT branches.


----------



## Tames D (Jan 10, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Question for the WSL'ers out there...
> Of all the people WSL taught, who among them (in your opinion) were taught the complete WSL curriculum and are representing the WSL method to the best of their ability?
> And are any of them teaching in the US?
> 
> ...


I believe Gary Lam is one. I trained with him in Southern Calif before I moved on to JKD. I'm pretty sure WSL taught him everything.


----------



## geezer (Jan 10, 2016)

Here is one approach to maintaining an "immovable elbow" ...in this case using tan-sau. One we do _not_ use in our branch of Yip Man Ving Tsun. In the clip below notice how the student in the red shirt receives the oncoming punch on the outside of his tan sau and then deflects it with a turn without changing the angle of his tan or the position of his elbow in relation to his own body and centerline.

Immovable elbow in somebody else's WC:





In our VT, coming from the WT branch, we would _not_ use our turning force with a fixed elbow to deflect the punch as shown. Instead our tan would stick and receive the punch's pressure, compressing and transferring the force into our body triggering a stance turn and lateral weight shift. In other words, the body yields by simultaneously both rotating and shifting laterally under the pressure of the punch while the tan-sau continues to track our opponent's center. For this to happen, the elbow stays in the same position in space but shifts with regard to our own turning body, from being near centerline (as in the _saam pai fut_ movements of SNT) to the the laterally aligned elbow position of the _gow-cha tan-sau _or "crossed tan-sau" as performed at the beginning of SNT.

The result of this is that rather turning with our own force and  pressing our opponent's punch to the side as in the video, we compress and ride the force back , using it to make our turn and evade it "like a bullfighter" with our tan, bong, etc. continually tracking our opponent's center ...which may involve elbow adjustments. Actually, once my sifu said, that it would be best to imagine that there is no elbow (that is if seen as a hinge between two rigid bones). Rather imagine the whole arm as a single springy piece of flexible rattan (like the slender end of a fly-fishing rod) flexing, extending, and then snapping forward according to the pressure it encounters as you seek to strike your opponent. By extention, the same applies to our body, to our stances and steps. This is our understanding of _loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. 
_
1. How this rattan-like "springy" energy applies to _bong-sau_  in LT WT and why the concept of a fixed elbow is moot in this situation (1910-19:50):

2. Turning with _tan-da _showing how _the elbow moves_ from center to side relative to the body so that the tan tracks the opponent's center (below 22:10-22:30):







Now Guy. I do not know if my _verbal _explanation of this is clear. But it was time consuming to write and I've even looked up and included some video clips, so if you need more clarification, you may have to find someone who can show you what I'm talking about _in person! _


----------



## wckf92 (Jan 10, 2016)

Tames D said:


> I believe Gary Lam is one. I trained with him in Southern Calif before I moved on to JKD. I'm pretty sure WSL taught him everything.



Cool, thanks!


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 10, 2016)

geezer said:


> Sure. My foundation was with Leung Ting in the 1980s. I now train with the NVTO ...and some with DTE/MMA.
> 
> 
> Here's literally the first clip that popped up on Youtube with a couple of guys from the same lineage, Emin Boztepe and Michael Casey. In this clip they start at what I'd call "long-bridge" and then use footwork to close as Emin moves in to beat on Michael at medium to short-bridge range, then they reset and repeat. The couple of times I worked with Emin way back, it wasn't really chi-sau. More like being a punching bag! Thank god he was holding back.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definitions can vary. A good wing chun punch could be an example of short bridge. Fak sao in the biu jee form
can be labeled as more of a long bridge. Labels can be arbitrary... depending on context


----------



## guy b. (Jan 10, 2016)

geezer said:


> Fixed elbow? You mean elbow _angle?_ The "ideal" angle in training is said to be about 120-135 degrees (that is if you carry a protractor  ). But in actual application, _there can be no fixed position_. In our system, _bong is a bent spring_. It's  bent or bowed inwards by our opponent's oncoming force, then springs back out when released. Consequently the amount of bend or flex in the bong is ever changing and adjusting ....like a cars springs as you drive on a bumpy road.



I don't mean elbow angle. I mean the basic elbow position trained in the forms.



> Now we do not totally reject the well known concept of _but doan jarn _or "immovable elbow", it just doesn't apply here ...at least in our lineage. The "springy" nature of bong, tan, etc. is one of the defining attributes of our lineage and one of the reasons my old sifu actually preferred to consider his branch as a distinct system apart from other WC/VT branches.



I don't mean immovable elbow, just referring to the elbow distance we train at, which in turn determines how we fight. I don't personally train a second elbow position further out from my body.


----------



## guy b. (Jan 10, 2016)

geezer said:


> Here is one approach to maintaining an "immovable elbow" ...in this case using tan-sau. One we do _not_ use in our branch of Yip Man Ving Tsun. In the clip below notice how the student in the red shirt receives the oncoming punch on the outside of his tan sau and then deflects it with a turn without changing the angle of his tan or the position of his elbow in relation to his own body and centerline.
> 
> Immovable elbow in somebody else's WC:
> 
> ...




Don't worry, your verbal explanation in terms of how your wing chun works is very clear. Thanks for making the effort.


----------



## kakkattekoi (Jan 10, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Question for the WSL'ers out there...
> Of all the people WSL taught, who among them (in your opinion) were taught the complete WSL curriculum and are representing the WSL method to the best of their ability?
> And are any of them teaching in the US?
> 
> ...



so does WSL complete curriculum includes long bridge?


----------



## wckf92 (Jan 11, 2016)

kakkattekoi said:


> so does WSL complete curriculum includes long bridge?



No idea man.

I asked this question because it appears that Phillip Bayer trained a lot with WSL, Gary Lam, etc but was wondering who else. I don't know about the long bridge in WSL...


----------



## LFJ (Jan 11, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Of all the people WSL taught, who among them (in your opinion) were taught the complete WSL curriculum and are representing the WSL method to the best of their ability?
> And are any of them teaching in the US?



I'll just say this; I've experienced American, Hong Kong, and European flavors of WSLVT, and in my opinion, nowhere in the world is WSLVT more deeply rooted, complete, and at a higher level than in Europe, particularly in Germany where WSL spent a lot of time and was in fact preparing to move prior to his untimely death.

Other Germans besides PB trained with WSL in HK in the 80's and brought him to Germany. All of these guys share the same "thinking" and have clearly received the full system. PB has of course done an amazing job spreading the system around Europe. That's practically all he does, fly around Europe and teach. It is also remarkable that all of his students who have schools in his association throughout Europe are highly skilled and, while they each have their own unique set of strengths and weaknesses, there is really no deviation among them with regards to their "thinking". That's a result of understanding the complete system and having no need for the gap-filling we see elsewhere.

There are some guys on the East and West Coast of the U.S., but I think GL is the only direct student of WSL there. However, he's developed his own curriculum and style, and his Wing Chun functions differently. I suspect he did that to fit the martial arts market in the States, but I would not call what he does WSLVT anymore.


----------



## wckf92 (Jan 11, 2016)

LFJ said:


> I'll just say this; I've experienced American, Hong Kong, and European flavors of WSLVT, and in my opinion, nowhere in the world is WSLVT more deeply rooted, complete, and at a higher level than in Europe, particularly in Germany where WSL spent a lot of time and was in fact preparing to move prior to his untimely death.
> 
> Other Germans besides PB trained with WSL in HK in the 80's and brought him to Germany. All of these guys share the same "thinking" and have clearly received the full system. PB has of course done an amazing job spreading the system around Europe. That's practically all he does, fly around Europe and teach. It is also remarkable that all of his students who have schools in his association throughout Europe are highly skilled and, while they each have their own unique set of strengths and weaknesses, there is really no deviation among them with regards to their "thinking". That's a result of understanding the complete system and having no need for the gap-filling we see elsewhere.
> 
> There are some guys on the East and West Coast of the U.S., but I think GL is the only direct student of WSL there. However, he's developed his own curriculum and style, and his Wing Chun functions differently. I suspect he did that to fit the martial arts market in the States, but I would not call what he does WSLVT anymore.



Thanks LFJ. Do you know who it is on the east coast?


----------



## guy b. (Jan 11, 2016)

LFJ said:


> I'll just say this; I've experienced American, Hong Kong, and European flavors of WSLVT, and in my opinion, nowhere in the world is WSLVT more deeply rooted, complete, and at a higher level than in Europe, particularly in Germany where WSL spent a lot of time and was in fact preparing to move prior to his untimely death.
> 
> Other Germans besides PB trained with WSL in HK in the 80's and brought him to Germany. All of these guys share the same "thinking" and have clearly received the full system. PB has of course done an amazing job spreading the system around Europe. That's practically all he does, fly around Europe and teach. It is also remarkable that all of his students who have schools in his association throughout Europe are highly skilled and, while they each have their own unique set of strengths and weaknesses, there is really no deviation among them with regards to their "thinking". That's a result of understanding the complete system and having no need for the gap-filling we see elsewhere.
> 
> There are some guys on the East and West Coast of the U.S., but I think GL is the only direct student of WSL there. However, he's developed his own curriculum and style, and his Wing Chun functions differently. I suspect he did that to fit the martial arts market in the States, but I would not call what he does WSLVT anymore.



I would agree in general, although there are some European teachers without that deep understanding of the system, especially in UK. PB is definitely about the best VT in the world and many of his students are also great which is a good indication that they are doing something right. His style as he gets older has changed a bit though which is worth bearing in mind. 

In terms of America I would agree that GL is not teaching basic WSL VT and has changed quite a lot for his own purposes. Interestingly some students of GL appear to be taking more of a back to basics approach and emphasising the WSL method. Some clips I have seen of Dwight Hennings and James Roller look less GL and more WSL, although I don't know either of them. I think both are in Canada. Don't really know about US. There is Ernie Barrios I guess who also appears to have moved a bit from the GL teachings in WSL direction? He is doing quite a lot of his own thing as well though I think, and has in turn influenced some of the PB derived VT in Europe and also some people with half learned VT in other places, e.g. UK.

In world terms there is David Peterson in Australia and also Barry Lee derived stuff there. DP is good with written descriptions and a valuable historian of the system. I don't know anything about BL VT or even if he is still active. Someone who learned from him has posted up a huge amount of stuff on youtube which I am not that keen on, but can't judge without seeing BL himself. 

Then there is HK which can be variable. Easy to get fooled and waste time there if you don't understand the culture. Again people like WKL have changed the system quite a bit compared to what WSL originally taught, while others teach a more straight forward version, e.g. NCH. Some are more accessible than others, e.g. Cliff Au Yeung, some less. I agree with LFJ that things are more straight forward with PB derived VT in Europe.


----------



## wckf92 (Jan 11, 2016)

guy b. said:


> I would agree in general, although there are some European teachers without that deep understanding of the system, especially in UK. PB is definitely about the best VT in the world and many of his students are also great which is a good indication that they are doing something right. His style as he gets older has changed a bit though which is worth bearing in mind.
> 
> In terms of America I would agree that GL is not teaching basic WSL VT and has changed quite a lot for his own purposes. Interestingly some students of GL appear to be taking more of a back to basics approach and emphasising the WSL method. Some clips I have seen of Dwight Hennings and James Roller look less GL and more WSL, although I don't know either of them. I think both are in Canada. Don't really know about US. There is Ernie Barrios I guess who also appears to have moved a bit from the GL teachings in WSL direction? He is doing quite a lot of his own thing as well though I think, and has in turn influenced some of the PB derived VT in Europe and also some people with half learned VT in other places, e.g. UK.
> 
> ...



Thanks Guy


----------



## LFJ (Jan 11, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Thanks LFJ. Do you know who it is on the east coast?



Forgot about our old buddy KG?


----------



## wckf92 (Jan 11, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Forgot about our old buddy KG?



 Oh yeah...I did forget about him. Is he a PB student?


----------



## LFJ (Jan 11, 2016)

Yup. Follows him all over Europe and has him over to the States too.


----------



## wckf92 (Jan 11, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Yup. Follows him all over Europe and has him over to the States too.



cool


----------



## kakkattekoi (Jan 12, 2016)

guy b. said:


> I would agree in general, although there are some European teachers without that deep understanding of the system, especially in UK. PB is definitely about the best VT in the world and many of his students are also great which is a good indication that they are doing something right. His style as he gets older has changed a bit though which is worth bearing in mind.
> 
> In terms of America I would agree that GL is not teaching basic WSL VT and has changed quite a lot for his own purposes. Interestingly some students of GL appear to be taking more of a back to basics approach and emphasising the WSL method. Some clips I have seen of Dwight Hennings and James Roller look less GL and more WSL, although I don't know either of them. I think both are in Canada. Don't really know about US. There is Ernie Barrios I guess who also appears to have moved a bit from the GL teachings in WSL direction? He is doing quite a lot of his own thing as well though I think, and has in turn influenced some of the PB derived VT in Europe and also some people with half learned VT in other places, e.g. UK.
> 
> ...



I like how you describe HK which is sad but true ..... IMO its ironic that this asian culture is more rooted or completed in Europe as LFG experienced.


----------

