# Knife defenses by a 12 year-old.



## geezer (Aug 18, 2008)

I was at a large family gathering this weekend and shared some conversations with my step-brother's son who recently earned a black belt in TKD at age 12. He worked really hard at learning his forms and such, and I think his dedication at such a young age is admirable. But I worry about some of the stuff he _thinks_ he knows. I shared a few eskrima stickfighting techniques with him (a passion of mine for many years) and he responded, "Oh they taught us a lot about that at my karate school". He then demonstrated a couple of absolutely ludicrous and unsafe defenses against a knife attack. What responsible instructor would show anything like that to a little kid and fill their head with the idea that they could safely disarm a knife wielding attacker! Any opinions???


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## Kreth (Aug 18, 2008)

I've seen some silly stuff since self-defense became a tournament competition category, including one local tourney where the self-defense "winner" would have had his throat slit in a real situation.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was at a large family gathering this weekend and shared some conversations with my step-brother's son who recently earned a black belt in TKD at age 12. He worked really hard at learning his forms and such, and I think his dedication at such a young age is admirable. But I worry about some of the stuff he _thinks_ he knows. I shared a few eskrima stick-fighting techniques with him (a passion of mine for many years) and he responded, "Oh they taught us a lot about that at my karate school". He then demonstrated a couple of absolutely ludicrous and unsafe defenses against a knife attack. What responsible instructor would show anything like that to a little kid and fill their head with the idea that they could safely disarm a knife wielding attacker! Any opinions???


In this case where the young one is showing incorrect (and potentially lethal) defenses (against any weapon) then it's time to question the validity of the black belt he earned and the qualifications of the instructor. 
I think most of us here know that a quality/responsible instructor would not/should not allow improper techniques or any techniques be taught to their students, unless they have checked them out themselves or are an actual part of the art's forms/techs and not something just thrown in just because it's a cool thing to do. 
To me this is how one separates the true art from a McDojo type school that teaches something that the instructor has no qualifications on teaching. It's dangerous to the student and IMO on knife defenses for that age group... there's only one technique should be taught: turn and run like hell.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 18, 2008)

if he is old enough to know it all the show him some knife attacks show him knife attack statistics..... he has a black belt but it wont save his life.... paid all that money and spent all that time and he cant keep from being taken and put in a van.....  show him the right way....    

if you are defending against a knife then you are being stabbed or slashed... the attacker just has not hit the right spot yet....most knife victims end up with dozens of superficial wounds and one fatal wound ....  you have to attack the real weapon which is his brain.... take out the mind wielding the knife...the knife has no power in and of itself.... it is in-animate....
  i am guilty.... i used to worry about keeping from being stabbed by grabbing the knife arm or trying to disarm it but against a bigger stronger guy.... i am dead....  so he puts a knife to my throat... im not going to dance with him....im going to shut down his brain by attacking the central nervous system ....


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## KenpoTex (Aug 18, 2008)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> I think most of us here know that *a quality/responsible instructor would not/should not allow improper techniques or any techniques be taught to their students, unless they have checked them out themselves or are an actual part of the art's forms/techs* and not something just thrown in just because it's a cool thing to do.
> *To me this is how one separates the true art from a McDojo type school that teaches something that the instructor has no qualifications on teaching.*


Unfortunately, many of the weapons defenses that _are_ part of the curriculum of many systems are a complete waste of time and would get the student killed if he/she were facing a committed attacker (regardless of the age of the student).



			
				MA-Caver said:
			
		

> In this case where the young one is showing incorrect (and potentially lethal) defenses (against any weapon) then it's time to question the validity of the black belt he earned and the qualifications of the instructor.
> 
> ...It's dangerous to the student and IMO on knife defenses for that age group... there's only one technique should be taught: turn and run like hell.


I agree with this one, expecting a 12-year-old to be able to pull off a defense against this type of attack, even if the methodology is sound, is ludicrous.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 18, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> Unfortunately, many of the weapons defenses that _are_ part of the curriculum of many systems are a complete waste of time and would get the student killed if he/she were facing a committed attacker (regardless of the age of the student).
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *MA-Caver*
> ...


Indeed, for not only physical skills are required but a strong mental and emotional attitude to face such an attack. It's damned scary to suddenly find yourself facing a blade. Even an incompetent or unskilled knife wielder can cause devastating damage. Knowing that only heightens the fear. 
I've known and read about brave 12 yr. olds yes, but many are not. Deep down inside they're still kids and still susceptible to fear. MA training does inspire/instills confidence but it cannot instill common sense born from experience and maturity. 
The hardest thing to teach is the turn and run method. There's egos involved, budding and growing egos. Peer pressure (afterwards), that could go along the lines of "Oh... gee, I thought you were a black belt..." (with dripping sarcasm). So unless given the tools of thought and reassurance from those who the child admires/respects/learns from that the "turn & run" method is the BEST method, odds are that it won't turn out good. 
Hate to be a pessimist but only speaking from experience as a knife/street fighter. It only takes one cut/slash to change the dynamics of a fight.


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## Steve (Aug 18, 2008)

The only thing that occurs to me is to caution you guys from accepting the situation at face value.  You guys are jumping to conclusions about this kid's instruction.  All we know is that he was taught some basic knife defense.  The rest is third hand as reported through a 12 year old.  We don't know how much time this school spends on this subject.  We definitely don't know that the teacher in any way expected a 12 year old to successfully defend against a knife attack.  We really don't even know the instructor's philosophy.  How many of us have tried talking to 12 year olds?  Most of us, I'd wager.  Now, how much of what you say do you think your 12 year old actually hears?  From my experience, maybe...  20% if we're lucky.  They're kids.  

I can easily envision a typical 12 year old hearing, "Run like hell" (or a more appropriate version of that lesson) 100 times, and then working knife defense 3 times and thinking, "Damn.  That was cool."

Otherwise, I agree with everyone's ideas on baby black belts and the rest.  Let's just not assume the worst about the school or start throwing around the term McDojo until/unless we get more information.


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 18, 2008)

I think of my 11 yo daughter's training over the years and what she would say about knife defense in a similar situation and how it would reflect in what she's actually been taught or not taught...and it wouldn't be good, but that's the perspective of an 11 yo, not really a reflection of her instruction...


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## MA-Caver (Aug 18, 2008)

stevebjj said:


> The only thing that occurs to me is to caution you guys from accepting the situation at face value.  You guys are jumping to conclusions about this kid's instruction.  All we know is that he was taught some basic knife defense.  The rest is third hand as reported through a 12 year old.  We don't know how much time this school spends on this subject.  We definitely don't know that the teacher in any way expected a 12 year old to successfully defend against a knife attack.  We really don't even know the instructor's philosophy.  How many of us have tried talking to 12 year olds?  Most of us, I'd wager.  Now, how much of what you say do you think your 12 year old actually hears?  From my experience, maybe...  20% if we're lucky.  They're kids.
> 
> I can easily envision a typical 12 year old hearing, "Run like hell" (or a more appropriate version of that lesson) 100 times, and then working knife defense 3 times and thinking, "Damn.  That was cool."
> 
> Otherwise, I agree with everyone's ideas on baby black belts and the rest.  Let's just not assume the worst about the school or start throwing around the term McDojo until/unless we get more information.


This is why in my initial post I suggested that a closer look into the school be taken and see what is there (and isn't) as far as the quality of the instruction. Perhaps it is of high caliber... perhaps it's not. 
But, IMO a family should be concerned when a child's development through the world of Martial Arts involves weaponry of ANY type. If there are legitimate and valid and sound instructions as far as defense -- without expecting the child to ACTUALLY try it out for real... (at least until they realize that there is no flight only fight situation -- which does occur from time to time... even for kids) then alright... 
I would be wanting to know exactly what my child would be taught in this regard. 
And yes, depending upon the kid... a 12 yr. old's attention span is in direct proportion to it's age... 12 yrs old = 12 seconds (or so goes the joke). But sometimes you find that rare pre-teen that actually listens closely and works it out best as they can in their heads what's being told/taught to them.


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## Brian S (Aug 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was at a large family gathering this weekend and shared some conversations with my step-brother's son who recently earned a black belt in TKD at age 12. He worked really hard at learning his forms and such, and I think his dedication at such a young age is admirable. But I worry about some of the stuff he _thinks_ he knows. I shared a few eskrima stickfighting techniques with him (a passion of mine for many years) and he responded, "Oh they taught us a lot about that at my karate school". He then demonstrated a couple of absolutely ludicrous and unsafe defenses against a knife attack. What responsible instructor would show anything like that to a little kid and fill their head with the idea that they could safely disarm a knife wielding attacker! Any opinions???


 
 Ashame isn't it?

 The best you can do is not let him continue to think that way, it could be dangerous.

 Show him the right way. IMO the right way is to know that in a knife fight you will likely be cut very badly no matter what.


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## JBrainard (Aug 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> ..."Oh they taught us a lot about that at my karate school". He then demonstrated a couple of absolutely ludicrous and unsafe defenses against a knife attack. What responsible instructor would show anything like that to a little kid and fill their head with the idea that they could safely disarm a knife wielding attacker! Any opinions???


 
To answer your question, a very irresponsible instructor. The "common" knife defenses I've seen will most likely get you killed, and good knife defense takes a lot of practice and a high level of skill. It may cause a little dissilusionment for the kid, but tough love dictates that you need to let him know that what he has learned will get him hurt, and if he see's a knife, RUN LIKE HELL.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 19, 2008)

Get a marker and tell him to use his techniques when you attack him with it like a real knife.

After he has lines on his arms and neck and little blots on his belly and throat, you can pull out an anatomy chart and tell him what these marks would mean n real life.

BUT dont be that guy that tells him it's hopeless, tell him it's time to look for the next step in his martial education.

 He's probably learned how to kick, punch, e;bow and knee, a few stances and how to generate power from his legs and hips. That's something even a McDojang can give you. Now he needs to learn how to fight and what happens n real fights.


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 20, 2008)

While I repetedly stress that the last thing a person wants is a real sense of certainty when it comes to weapons, but yes, after a certain point in the training of a 12 year old I teach club and knife defenses. I have one reason alone. when I was 12 I had been attacked with cubs and knives, and threatened once with a gun. I don't have the delusion that kids are safe from that kind of thing, and I feel responsible for prepping my kids as much as possible for any situation. 

But I make sure they see what a real knife can do as well.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 20, 2008)

Josh Oakley said:


> While I repetedly stress that the last thing a person wants is a real sense of certainty when it comes to weapons, but yes, after a certain point in the training of a 12 year old I teach club and knife defenses. I have one reason alone. when I was 12 I had been attacked with cubs and knives, and threatened once with a gun. I don't have the delusion that kids are safe from that kind of thing, and I feel responsible for prepping my kids as much as possible for any situation.
> 
> But I make sure they see what a real knife can do as well.


 

With my own kids, they will be all to aware of what a knife can do, I protect my kids but I will not shelter them from some of life's harsher realities.

 I hunt, so at some point I'll take a blade to a carcass the same way I am trained to do to a man and they will definatly respect the blade after that.

"You run from a knife, you charge a gun."
 Jimmy Hoffa


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## MarkBarlow (Aug 20, 2008)

Unfortunately, the vast majority of instructors don't have a clue on realistic knife counters.  While it's very possible that the kid has been shown some practical techniques and warped them to fit a Power Rangers viewpoint, I think it's more likely that he hasn't seen reality-based attacks and defenses.

On a side note, it amazes me how many people view a black belt, regardless of the age of the wearer, as a sign of expertise.  Several years ago I was at a party and a lady walked up to my wife and me and asked if it was true that I taught martial arts. I said it was and she proceeds to tell me that her son was a 3rd or 4th degree black belt and we should get together some time as I would be sure to enjoy training with him.  The woman looked to be about my age and I asked how old her son was.  When she told me that he was 11 or 12 it struck me that she assumed that his experience of being babysat by someone willing to sell rank was the equivalent to my years of training and real-life application.  I had the good sense not to argue or try to enlighten her, just said, "That would be great." and swore to myself to avoid her and her kid at all costs.


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## geezer (Aug 20, 2008)

stevebjj said:


> How many of us have tried talking to 12 year olds? Most of us, I'd wager. *Now, how much of what you say do you think your 12 year old actually hears? From my experience, maybe... 20% if we're lucky.* They're kids.
> 
> I can easily envision a typical 12 year old hearing, "Run like hell" (or a more appropriate version of that lesson) 100 times, and then working knife defense 3 times and thinking, "Damn. That was cool."


 
Yeah, that's very true. I'm a high school teacher by profession and, from experience I'd say your 20% figure may be overly generous.

Now for the ironic part, after starting this thread...Last night I was talking with a friend who is planning to re-open his school, and he asked me if I would be interested in helping run a kids Eskrima class. I believe such a class could be great if properly put together...but using padded sticks, emphasizing drills and skills that are age-appropriate..._and no bladed work._ I believe that training a _true combat mindset_ should be reserved for adult students. Any comments?


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## Traditionalist (Aug 20, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was at a large family gathering this weekend and shared some conversations with my step-brother's son who recently earned a black belt in TKD at age 12. He worked really hard at learning his forms and such, and I think his dedication at such a young age is admirable. But I worry about some of the stuff he _thinks_ he knows. I shared a few eskrima stickfighting techniques with him (a passion of mine for many years) and he responded, "Oh they taught us a lot about that at my karate school". He then demonstrated a couple of absolutely ludicrous and unsafe defenses against a knife attack. What responsible instructor would show anything like that to a little kid and fill their head with the idea that they could safely disarm a knife wielding attacker! Any opinions???


 

First of all I have a problem with a twelve year old having a black belt (if anything he should just have a junior black belt). And teaching a child a defense against knife is to me absurd, because then they think like  Geezer nephew and they are ready to take on the world. I do believe that they should be taught what a knife can do and to try and do something before they even get into a situation where they have to defend themselves against a knife. In most cases kids are outmatched by adults whether they know martial arts or not. I think martial arts can only give them more of an advantage then a child who knows nothing. Most kids think they can become that little kid on all the kung fu movies that can beat the crap out of an adult. I teach my kids to get themselves free and then get away. Better to run and see another day then stand and fight and get a knife in you. I have a thirteen year old in class that came to me and said he been practicing sword technique on his own and thought he was pretty good and could defend himself with it. I know nothing about sword technique but I did know that this kid was only thirteen. I promptly handed him one of the foam swords in class and told him to take his best shot. He took his swing and then I took him down with just a normal wrestling shoot-in. I wanted to use something simple that a lot of athletes know or seen. I then explained that he is a child and as an adult I'm bigger, stronger, and smarter them he is and that is why I teach escaping techniques, because God for bid he should end up in that situation. 

Boy this ran long. Sorry guys!!


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## astrobiologist (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm not opposed to teaching children weapons.  In fact, we teach staff and stick to our young students at my school.  I would definitely not recommend teaching a 12 year old knife or bladed weapons, though; at least not directly (as we all know, learning stick work can transition to blade work).

I agree with what Traditionalist said, teach children how to analyze and avoid a situation where they would even be in close enough distance to an attacker with a knife that they would feel the need to defend.  It can be a scary world and there are some situations that no one can prepare for, but having a sound, knowledgeable mind can save lives.

I think Geezer should definitely talk to that step-brother and his son and let them know his position on the issue.  A bad situation cannot become a better situation if nothing is done to change it.

Live long and prosper, my friends,

Instructor G Lau


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 23, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was at a large family gathering this weekend and shared some conversations with my step-brother's son who recently earned a black belt in TKD at age 12. He worked really hard at learning his forms and such, and I think his dedication at such a young age is admirable. But I worry about some of the stuff he _thinks_ he knows. I shared a few eskrima stickfighting techniques with him (a passion of mine for many years) and he responded, "Oh they taught us a lot about that at my karate school". He then demonstrated a couple of absolutely ludicrous and unsafe defenses against a knife attack. What responsible instructor would show anything like that to a little kid and fill their head with the idea that they could safely disarm a knife wielding attacker! Any opinions???


 Answer?  An instructor who's expertise is in TKD and who's only exposure to knife defense is his own untested theories.  That happens.  That's why if you want to learn weapon training/defense and are studying an unarmed system like TKD....you look outside that system.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 23, 2008)

geezer said:


> Now for the ironic part, after starting this thread...Last night I was talking with a friend who is planning to re-open his school, and he asked me if I would be interested in helping run a kids Eskrima class. I believe such a class could be great if properly put together...but using padded sticks, emphasizing drills and skills that are age-appropriate..._and no bladed work._ I believe that training a _true combat mindset_ should be reserved for adult students. Any comments?


 Yeah.....focus on the stick work for the younger kids.  I believe that Remy Presas' Modern Arnis is still standard curriculum in many High Schools in the Philippines and it focus' almost exclusive on the stick.  I'd wait until the students were at least 16 or 18 before doing blade work.  JMHO.


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## Drac (Aug 23, 2008)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> Get a marker and tell him to use his techniques when you attack him with it like a real knife.
> 
> After he has lines on his arms and neck and little blots on his belly and throat, you can pull out an anatomy chart and tell him what these marks would mean n real life.


 
That'll do it...


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## arnisador (Aug 25, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I believe that Remy Presas' Modern Arnis is still standard curriculum in many High Schools in the Philippines and it focus' almost exclusive on the stick



Yes...and that's one reason it was accepted in the schools.


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## wrc619 (Aug 26, 2008)

stevebjj said:


> I can easily envision a typical 12 year old hearing, "Run like hell" (or a more appropriate version of that lesson) 100 times, and then working knife defense 3 times and thinking, "Damn. That was cool."


 
The kids in the class I help with hear escape a lot.  Instructor emphasizes that escape is our primary defense.  I agree with the above.  The instructor may have shown a knife defense after emphasizing that getting gone is always the best defense.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 27, 2008)

wrc619 said:


> The kids in the class I help with hear escape a lot.  Instructor emphasizes that escape is our primary defense.  I agree with the above.  The instructor may have shown a knife defense after emphasizing that getting gone is always the best defense.


 Well perhaps......but because the escape advice is good does not justify the zero percentage knife defense.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2008)

what if a kid pulls a knife at school...??? what if a kid pulls a gun at...??? school.... 

do you teach them to become ''game" or "no value targets"  ????  

what they are taught and influenced to learn as a child resonates into  teen and adult years....  society and media will also play a hige role in teaching them to run and hide rather than combat the problem.... 

what if they see it happening to another child??? we teach them to run  and get help...instead of combat the problem....we teach them to become negligible to others....   they should learn that it is out job as a society to protect one another... not law enforcement or the court....  if children learn this way there wouldnt be such terrible tragedies like columbine or virginia tech where they literally had to wait until the opposition shot themself for the killing to stop....    
our society is weak and afraid becuase we make it that way.... we try to run or cry and hope that the law comes or that justice will be served in court....      

train your kids to understand the reality and anatomy of the blade and the gun....  they must know how it works and how to use them......  they must know how not to use them....  they must see it in action and see the effects....   if you cannot do this or are uncomfortable...then [please explain to the kids getting these blets and going thrugh all these  motions that this stuff is not designed to save your life or a loved one....it is merely social and for sport and competitive purposes only


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 27, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> what if a kid pulls a knife at school...??? what if a kid pulls a gun at...??? school....
> 
> do you teach them to become ''game" or "no value targets"  ????
> 
> ...


 Actually I believe in teaching my children how to respond to all weapons in time.  However that's a far cry from teaching EVERY child who comes to a class.

You're right about teaching what works......if you're not going to teach something that works, don't teach anything at all.  It's better to teach nothing than teach wrong.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Actually I believe in teaching my children how to respond to all weapons in time. However that's a far cry from teaching EVERY child who comes to a class.
> 
> You're right about teaching what works......if you're not going to teach something that works, don't teach anything at all. It's better to teach nothing than teach wrong.


 
+1 

and yes... it is definately not intended for everyone who walks through that door


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 27, 2008)

It's not just grown-ups the kids have to watch for. It's kids too. A lot of people never really view kids as threats to other kids, despite the fact that there have been many school shootings and more than a few knifings and certainly many attacks with blunt objects. We can't control that these things happen. we might as well do our best for these kids (for whom running is not always an option) and teach them effective weapon defense.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 28, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Actually I believe in teaching my children how to respond to all weapons in time.  However that's a far cry from teaching EVERY child who comes to a class.
> 
> You're right about teaching what works......if you're not going to teach something that works, don't teach anything at all.  It's better to teach nothing than teach wrong.




Teaching my nephews/nieces or friends kids is very different then just anyone who walks in off he street. 

I was up talking to a friend of mine about classes in small business and his student intern was listening in, I told him to come into the office and listen there it is better. He smiled and said that he was thinking of opening a club one day as well. I told him his business model would be different as he most likely would be teaching kids and I do not teach 10 year old's how to knife fight. 

At some of the larger seminars where younger people / kids have been present. I try to walk around and talk to them and also talk to their parents. If I am going to cover anything with a knife. I tell them that if they do not want their child learning that now, I will work with the child after the day is over to give him/her something else. None have not wanted their child to be exposed, but I wanted to offer the parents the option so they would not feel like they had to participate with their children.  Although if children are there I really prefer that the parents are there as well to see and understand what their child is learning.


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## chinto (Sep 2, 2008)

the style I study does not allow any one under 18 to test for shodan ho.. ( probationary black belt)  there are a lot of reasons, some of them the way most courts and others look at any one who has a black belt. so I would say that I do not argree with the situation from that point to began with ... as to blades and teaching knife defense to a 12 year old, no I dont think so, run yes .. but well size and things are against him or her at that age.. escape is more likely a way to survive at that age.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 3, 2008)

> IMO on knife defenses for that age group... there's only one technique should be taught: turn and run like hell.



I think that applies to everyone, not just kids. Sometimes your life is worth more than your pride.


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## astrobiologist (Sep 3, 2008)

Agreed, 

Every now and then, while teaching applications and real-world self-protection, I make sure to remind my students that one of the best techniques to know is how to turn and run.

One of the 'codes' I used to have to repeat at the school I came from was "No Retreat In Battle".  I always disagreed with that completely.  I want my students to live.  Sometimes your opponent will be armed or there will be multiple opponents or your opponent may just have the upper hand.  To quote Master Jay S. Penfil, "I'd rather hear you tell me the story of how you got away then hear from your parents when the funeral is going to be held".  Honor and standing up for what is right is truly important, but so is survival.  

So then why do we teach any weapons defense?  Because sometimes you're not going to have the choice to run away.  You may be cornered, you may be taken to close range before you had time to react, there may be someone else for whom you are fighting and retreat may be at their demise...  That list can probably go on.

Everyone should know defense and protection techniques.  Children should know defense as well.  But teaching knife and bladed weapons to children can be dangerous and must be done thoughtfully by the instructor.


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