# Teaching kata



## Kong Soo Do (Jun 10, 2011)

I remember stories of how Kanbun Uechi Sensei learned Sanchin kata.  He would train for hours a day, week after week or several months on just the opening movements.  From what I've read his kata was extremely fluid, graceful and powerful.  And once, if the story is correct, after a demonstration at a town gathering the other masters refused to follow his demostration.

This just got me curious.  Does anyone still teach this way?  Maybe not taking months to learn a whole kata (or do you) but at least taking a LOT of time to really teach it bit by bit?

I try my very best to teach in a very slow, methodical, building block manner as it just seems to really work better.

Thoughts...


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## Thesemindz (Jun 10, 2011)

It depends on the kata. I tend to teach the whole pattern first, and then go through and break it down piece by piece to show the students how it works. So if the kata is short, I might teach it in only two or three classes. But then once the students have the pattern memorized we go through and discuss the separate techniques and how to apply them and we talk about what the kata is designed to teach us.

Some kata are longer, and it might take a month or more of classes just to teach the pattern, and considerably longer to actually teach and practice the individual applications and the concepts and principles the kata is designed around.

I'm still learning from my very first kenpo forms. I don't imagine I'll stop learning from them any time soon. In my experience karate isn't the sort of thing you finish learning.


-Rob


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## Master Dan (Jun 11, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I remember stories of how Kanbun Uechi Sensei learned Sanchin kata. He would train for hours a day, week after week or several months on just the opening movements. From what I've read his kata was extremely fluid, graceful and powerful. And once, if the story is correct, after a demonstration at a town gathering the other masters refused to follow his demostration.
> 
> This just got me curious. Does anyone still teach this way? Maybe not taking months to learn a whole kata (or do you) but at least taking a LOT of time to really teach it bit by bit?
> 
> ...


 
I think you hit a key term which is learn? That alone would be difficult to describe because you could define 5 different levels of experience that all goes on at the same time during the experience inside the Katas and how much have you been shown in the begining how much does another person show you later on and how much do you self descover over years or decades of learning or experiencing the layers or evolution of the Kata. I was impressed with one of my GM's explaining a detailed study and practice of the early Karate Katas for a intense 10 year period for applications and bonki. Forms I have been doing almost 40 years I still feel like I experience or discover something new on a regular basis.


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## seasoned (Jun 11, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I remember stories of how Kanbun Uechi Sensei learned *Sanchin kata*. He would train for hours a day, week after week or several months on just the opening movements. From what I've read his kata was extremely fluid, graceful and powerful. And once, if the story is correct, after a demonstration at a town gathering the other masters refused to follow his demostration.
> 
> This just got me curious. Does anyone still teach this way? Maybe not taking months to learn a whole kata (or do you) but at least taking a LOT of time to really teach it bit by bit?
> 
> ...


First off, the kata you mention above, is the corner stone of Okinawan GoJu. Within this kata, Sanchin, lies all manor of principles of proper movement, breath coordination in regard to techniques, and body structure for power transference, that is inherent in all kata. Generally, kata teaches techniques. But, without this base, Sanchin, all kata you learn forward, will just be a series of moves that are effective, but will lack in the certain principles, that make the techniques come alive.  
 Just as in running, everyone can run, but if taught the proper way *to* run, you will be so much more efficient, and so it is with my point above.
Now on to the teaching of kata as I see it. I teach a kata first with no explanation of bunkai, just an adherence to the proper movement of the kata from beginning to end. This may seem like a blind way to teach it, but, once all the moves of the kata are learned, without the influence of certain techniques interjected as we learn, it leaves the kata open to many ideas. Kata, as in fighting, or self defense, is alive and on going. Kata, if taught wrong, will hinder the development of all manor of fighting techniques that are within the old traditional kata.
If asked how long will it take to learn a kata, my answer would be, slow and easy, and expect that kata to teach you many things over many years.   :asian:


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## dancingalone (Jun 11, 2011)

seasoned said:


> Now on to the teaching of kata as I see it. I teach a kata first with no explanation of bunkai, just an adherence to the proper movement of the kata from beginning to end. This may seem like a blind way to teach it, but, once all the moves of the kata are learned, without the influence of certain techniques interjected as we learn, it leaves the kata open to many ideas. Kata, as in fighting, or self defense, is alive and on going. Kata, if taught wrong, will hinder the development of all manor of fighting techniques that are within the old traditional kata.



My teacher at times taught individual applications in isolation to his senior students.  In some cases, we would be working some sequence with a partner for months, getting it down and polished before we discovered it taken from kata.  Those were rare and treasured moments however.  Most of the time, he followed a similar teaching style to what you describe.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 11, 2011)

People learn differently.  Some learn better doing the entire kata at once and then repeating it until they get better at it. Some learn better by learning a set of a few moves from the kata at a time, and practicing those until they are ready to add the next few moves.  I am one of the latter; I am not the only one in my dojo.  But we also have students who are the former type of learners.  Takes all kinds.  I don't think there is a right way or wrong way.

One thing is certain; once the kata movements have been memorized, it is intense repetition and concentration on speed, power, balance, and breathing that make a person's kata 'good'.  And if I do not practice my data at least several times per week, they get very bad very fast.


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## Grenadier (Jun 11, 2011)

To a good extent, yes, it's still done to this date with several systems. 

For example, modern Shotokan Karate teaches the Heian series of kata (1-5). Each of these 5 kata are relatively short sequences, and teach techniques that are individual portions of more advanced katas, such as Kanku Dai. 

Kata Kanku Dai is one of the two Shitei kata from the system, and was chosen to "represent" the system in competition. 

By the time someone has a good proficiency in the 5 Heian kata, teaching them Kanku Dai is actually quite easy, since all I have to do is point out that the first quarter is very similar to the kata Heian Nidan, whereas the second quarter bears close resemblance to Heian Yondan and Godan. 

Back when Ankoh Itosu developed these Heian kata (or Pinan in some systems), there were quite a few individuals who claimed that he was watering down the system, turning it into schoolchildren's Karate. 

I strongly disagree with that line of thought, since taking things more slowly and simply, especially at the earlier stages, will allow people to develop gradually, and that the next step can be taken when the person is ready. In the end, you're going to have many more accomplished practitioners this way, instead of giving them the "sink or swim" ultimatum from the start.



Edit: Also, forgot to mention that I can teach Bassai Dai much more easily to someone who has a solid understanding of the kata Heian Godan, since a significant portion of the second half has many of the moves in Heian Godan.


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## Blade96 (Jun 11, 2011)

Grenadier said:


> To a good extent, yes, it's still done to this date with several systems.
> 
> For example, modern Shotokan Karate teaches the Heian series of kata (1-5). Each of these 5 kata are relatively short sequences, and teach techniques that are individual portions of more advanced katas, such as Kanku Dai.
> 
> ...



Agree! Oss. 

Also, I prefer to learn kata in little bits also. I cant just watch a kata all the way through and do it. I break it down too, and thats also how my senseis teach us.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 12, 2011)

I teach kata different to each person mostly. Usually a few steps at a time but sometimes more. I will relate kata learned before to parts of a new kata whenever possible. But ultimately learning 1 kata is a ongoing process in my dojo. Start with the step, the detail of the technique, basic applications, kumite drills, than more advanced applications.


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## Victor Smith (Jun 12, 2011)

I suppose it really depends on what you call learning a kata.

Personally I find spending 3 years to learn one kata way too long and way too short at the same time.

Learning kata isn't just the raw movements, but learning the motion potential of those movements till you change your body potential with it. If I had to pick a number I bet my adult students are someplace between 8 to 10 kata in their first 3 years. On the other hand they just get into the movement of any of them about 10 years into the kata.

IMO focusing intensely on one kata limits the movement learning potential of the student, and while you hear old 'stories', I find little credence that more than a few keep to that way.  Most of the systems as knowledge increases have increased the depth of their systems too.

But 3 or 5 or even 10 years on one kata is way too short for the lessons there too. Currently my two longest training students are at 27 years into their own study and they still have more to learn, as I do myself.

Yet one method is not better than another. All that matters is the path continues.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 13, 2011)

I agree 100% with Victor. Growth and continuous learning must happen. I have been training since '84 and I feel as though I am starting to grasp the concepts of karate at least to a small degree. I have had people tell me karate is easy and anyone can do it. Thats true if you learn karate that is only basic and with no depth. It has been said kata is the encyclopedia of karate and I believe that is very true.


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## punisher73 (Jun 13, 2011)

Depends, both Goju and Uechi ryu were influenced by the same chinese styles and had similiar training approaches.

Both started with Sanchin kata and basic techniques.  It wasn't so much of "learning" the kata as it was training the kata for the first 2-3 years.  Sanchin kata trains everything you will need to be successful with the rest of your training.  It is heavily concept based and the kata will also teach you how to use your body effectively.  Many people feel that Sanchin is the hub of the Naha based styles and that the other katas are the spokes of the wheel.

So, today we have a VERY different approach.  We aren't spending 2-3 years training and building a fighter based on kihon and sanchin.  Since most schools are commercial endeavors, they teach more material to keep the student interested and for the long haul.  The more modern approach seems to be width before depth, whereas the oldern okinawan approach seems to be depth before width of knowledge. Even looking at both Uechi and Goju, they both added more material to their styles to help with the beginners bridge between the core katas.  Uechi's son added 4 katas that combine lessons of the core 3 kata to help students understand the depth and Miyagi added the Gekisai kata for beginners to start to learn to help them along.

I also think that it will always be a debate or whether to teach a whole kata first so students have the pattern and then show applications or show applications and then put it together in the kata.  I can see merits in both approaches.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 13, 2011)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I agree 100% with Victor. Growth and continuous learning must happen. I have been training since '84 and I feel as though I am starting to grasp the concepts of karate at least to a small degree. I have had people tell me karate is easy and anyone can do it. Thats true if you learn karate that is only basic and with no depth. It has been said kata is the encyclopedia of karate and I believe that is very true.



I think karate is easy and anyone can do it. All you have to do is show up every class, and practice every day.

Then you get better.


-Rob


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 13, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Depends, both Goju and Uechi ryu were influenced by the same chinese styles and had similiar training approaches.
> 
> Both started with Sanchin kata and basic techniques. It wasn't so much of "learning" the kata as it was training the kata for the first 2-3 years. Sanchin kata trains everything you will need to be successful with the rest of your training. It is heavily concept based and the kata will also teach you how to use your body effectively. Many people feel that Sanchin is the hub of the Naha based styles and that the other katas are the spokes of the wheel.


 
It is interesting to note the differences between the Goju Sanchin and the Uechi Sanchin.


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## Nomad (Jun 14, 2011)

Interesting thread, and a coincidence, as I was teaching Sanchin to one of my Kohei last night.  The way I taught it was to introduce the Sanchin stance and practice moving in it a bit, describing the feel that you want to have.  Then we started the kata.  I'd do a few of the moves, then stop and redo.  Once that sequence was known, we'd add a couple of moves, until in about 1/2 hour, the student had the sequence. 

Then we introduced adding the breathing.  I let him struggle with the kata for a little bit, then came and checked on him, correcting his stance and structure a little.

With a kata like Sanchin, it's a truism to say it doesn't take long at all to memorize the sequence, but after years of practice, you may still not feel that you "have" it.  The best description I've heard for Sanchin is "grasping at clouds".  We aren't Goju or Uechi, so we don't practice this kata with the same single-mindedness that many practitioners of these systems do, but it's a kata that we constantly return to (and struggle with).

In general, we usually will work a kata fairly intensely for a few months before introducing a student to the next.  And of course, we frequently go back to revisit older katas and discover new things in them.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jul 10, 2011)

When I teach kata, I teach by old, traditional standards, which I find more comprehensive for students studying the art. What I do is to teach the students the bunkai of the kata first for at least a week, and then show them the kata the next. I try to show them half of the movements of the kata a few times then teach the rest, and show them the whole kata several times. People are different though. There are some that are able to soak things up quickly like a sponge while others are not able to pick things up faster. My theory is that human beings training in combat are naturally use to learning in an orderly sequence.


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