# ATA TKD-looking for opinions



## Twin Fist (May 11, 2008)

I have been around for years,and ran across a few of these schools. Looking for info on the web is mostly thier own sites, so i take that with a grain of salt.

What do YOU guys think about the ATA?


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## exile (May 11, 2008)

This has come up in several earlier threads, TFyou might take a look at this one for starters... it seems to be something of a powderkeg issue, going by some of the earlier discussions salted away in the archives....


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## terryl965 (May 11, 2008)

ATA is not my cup of Tea but each there own, knowing your background and who you have trained with it is not a good match for you. I would look into the ITA or ITF or even Kacey group yomchi tkd first and foremost.


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## Twin Fist (May 11, 2008)

oh not for me, i wouldnt walk into a school that uses a CAMO belt fer craps sake, not for anything, but i just didnt know anything about them and I was curious


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## terryl965 (May 11, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> oh not for me, i wouldnt walk into a school that uses a CAMO belt fer craps sake, not for anything, but i just didnt know anything about them and I was curious


 
That makes me feel better.


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## Dave Leverich (May 11, 2008)

I've been in the ATA for 23 years, if you have any questions feel free to ask.

It was initially the American NGB of the ITF in many ways, as General Choi met with HU Lee and had him do the TKD forms. It's hard to find an accurate history of the ATA, but I can help in some spots.

The first president was Kang Suh Chong (senior most Taekwondoin alive), HU Lee became president in 78-79. Original line runs to the Chung Do Kwan, with GM Kang being.. 8th I believe in the CDK?

Anyway, it's often the whipping boy of the TKD world, and TKD the whipping boy of the MA world, so yeah I'm used to having people trash-talk it. It sounds like the OP was looking for another one of those threads? Anyway, any school is as good or as bad as the instructors, regardless of organization affiliation.


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## Twin Fist (May 12, 2008)

Dave,
I am not trying to stir up dirt on the ATA. I just dont know much about them. What I do know makes me curious.

For example, CAMOFLAGE is not a belt color, nor should it be in my opinion, so that makes me think "cheese"

but then, I know that the south has ATA schools all over the place, and cheese doesnt normally last long, or spread wide, so that makes me think "legit".

my list of questions includes:
Where did this org come from?
How far is it spread?
WTH is up with the CAMO belt?
what is the belt system?
why does the ATA use kata that NO ONE else uses?
what is the price structure, for belt tests?
etc
etc


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## YoungMan (May 12, 2008)

I think in the beginning, when it was an offshoot of Chung Do Kwan, it was a fairly reputable organization, especially when Haeng Ung Lee was alive and in charge.
Unfortunately, with him gone, I think it has devolved into a money-making organization that makes students buy through them so they can charge whatever they want.
I don't like the camo belts either. I seen no need or use for them. If camo is supposed to represent growth, just use a green belt.


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## terryl965 (May 12, 2008)

One thing that I do not like about the ATA is everything is in house, that means a bottomless pit of money for school owners and the organization. the other is no hand contact to the head,  man come on if you are point sparring or continous point sparring hands to the head need to be legal. Just my own persoanl believes.


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## YoungMan (May 12, 2008)

WTF sparring forbids hand contact to the head as well, but they don't use gloves either. Doesn't bother me either way. If I want to punch someone in the head I'll take up boxing.


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## terryl965 (May 12, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> WTF sparring forbids hand contact to the head as well, but they don't use gloves either. Doesn't bother me either way. If I want to punch someone in the head I'll take up boxing.


 
This is true all though they are talking about bringing that back into the game because they need to generate more action to keep the Olympics and the IOC happy.


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## Dave Leverich (May 12, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Dave,
> I am not trying to stir up dirt on the ATA. I just dont know much about them. What I do know makes me curious.
> 
> For example, CAMOFLAGE is not a belt color, nor should it be in my opinion, so that makes me think "cheese"



No worries TF, and yeah, when I came through the colored belts there was white/yellow/green/blue/red/black... I think Camo was the 'crap what's between green and purple'. I didn't mind the 6 belt system though either. I think it was a motivational decision perhaps? The ranks haven't changed (9th gup through 1, then black belt ranks), just instead of 1-3 stripes of black tape, it's a new belt.

My lineage is from MDK, they had white, blue and black belts... Way before that, Kano introduced white/black belts in Judo (from the swimmers sashes) to denote skill levels.. I guess people keep wanting a measuring stick with more marks on it heh.



Twin Fist said:


> but then, I know that the south has ATA schools all over the place, and cheese doesnt normally last long, or spread wide, so that makes me think "legit".


I hear you loud and clear there, I think that is one of the biggest issues facing not only the ATA, but all Taekwondo in general as well. People running out and opening schools with only a few years of training. The school is only as good as the instructor...


Twin Fist said:


> my list of questions includes:
> Where did this org come from?


HU Lee was in CDK, taught in Korea (Osan AFB). Notable students (most famous Chuck Norris). Came to USA in 60's. Ran 'Korean Karate'. Gen Choi met with and convinced him to fly the TKD banner & forms.
ATA actually predates the WTF & KKW, by 2-3 years, as such it was ITF forms.


Twin Fist said:


> How far is it spread?


Pretty globally, although mostly still USA. Canada has WTTU (and UK etc), Latin countries have STF, all part of the same org.


Twin Fist said:


> WTH is up with the CAMO belt?


No clue, I still think a green/dark green if they must use two belts.


Twin Fist said:


> what is the belt system?


It was... white/yellow/green/blue/red/black, now it's white/orange/yellow/camo/green/purple/blue/brown/red/red-black (undecided bb)/black. Again, I think it's purely to 'show' rank easier than stripes.


Twin Fist said:


> why does the ATA use kata that NO ONE else uses?


The Songahm forms were created and then released in 83/84, the idea was to more logically introduce techniques based on difficulty. Each succeeding form being longer in duration with more complex techniques. And, to emphasize kicking more than the previous forms had.
I've done the CH forms, started in WTA before ATA, when I joined the ATA school they had just switched over so we all knew the other forms. I do like the Songahm ones, but I liked Chang Hon too.


Twin Fist said:


> what is the price structure, for belt tests?
> etc
> etc


That part varies depending on location. Usually it was $25-35, then it increases at black belt levels.

On hands to the head: No argument there. I train MMA 3 days per week so that I can punch people in the head heh.

On the 'closed ecosystem': Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not good. There is a very established and effective chain of command, accountability is good. But, you KNOW what is coming at you in the ring, not so good. 

With the 'ATA gear' etc, as long as the schools aren't gouging the students with exorbitant prices (ie, match market costs) I think it's fine if they sell the gear. Although I would like to see open market too, but branding has to be on etc. Although, in other styles of TKD... Adidas shoes/Dobok anyone? It's not just the ATA, although they're much more prolific at it.

I think it all really boils down to finding that good school, that good instructor.

I'm happy to answer any questions I can, although obvious ones like McDojang ones really don't need my input. I've seen those in all walks of TKD, Karate, Kenpo etc etc.


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## Twin Fist (May 12, 2008)

Thanks Dave.

The hands to the head thing makes me giggle, i mean, hand strikes to the head are "too dangerous" yet full power kicks to the head are magically delicious?

whatever

the other stuff isnt a big deal, lots of schools sell thier own gear and gi's

I have heard the Black belt testing fee's are VERY expensive, though, judging by the other thread we had on that, thats not just an ATA thing.


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## Dave Leverich (May 12, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Thanks Dave.
> 
> The hands to the head thing makes me giggle, i mean, hand strikes to the head are "too dangerous" yet full power kicks to the head are magically delicious?
> 
> whatever


Rofl, no kidding man, no kidding heh.
You know what I think the REAL issue of hands to the head is with Taekwondo (all TKD)?...

I think the moment you allow them, the flashy kicks abundance gets cut to 1/10th or 1/20th the frequency. So, no hands to the head, lots of kicks and a very spectacular looking art.

I do find that my kicking _really_ comes in handy in MMA, but I had to learn  how to implement it from scratch.


Twin Fist said:


> the other stuff isnt a big deal, lots of schools sell thier own gear and gi's
> 
> I have heard the Black belt testing fee's are VERY expensive, though, judging by the other thread we had on that, thats not just an ATA thing.



No kidding, some of the fees out there seem insanely high. I think my 4th dan testing ran $300+.


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## terryl965 (May 12, 2008)

Dave Leverich said:


> Rofl, no kidding man, no kidding heh.
> You know what I think the REAL issue of hands to the head is with Taekwondo (all TKD)?...
> 
> I think the moment you allow them, the flashy kicks abundance gets cut to 1/10th or 1/20th the frequency. So, no hands to the head, lots of kicks and a very spectacular looking art.
> ...


 

I can only agree on all counts.


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## shesulsa (May 12, 2008)

Funny thing I run across this thread today - I met a young lady at my son's elementary school today who said she was an ATA black belt. She got her bb on the very last day because the school was closing down and there are (supposedly) no other ATA schools in our area.

The girl is 9 years old.

She does not want to go anywhere but an ATA school.  I imagine, after receiving her black because a school closed down, she's excited to get her second one for another school opening up????

Her words were that her instructor shut her school down because of not enough clientele and she went back to her instructor to find out how to become a better teacher.

Anyone know of ATA schools in the SW Washington area?  I'd kinda like to see this for myself.


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## Dave Leverich (May 12, 2008)

Eww, so just a 'granted' belt?
For schools though, http://www.ataonline.com
There's a school locator there by state or zip.

Btw, saw your sig. I've done some donated work for NAAR (now merged with Autism Speaks). Great cause. A few of the ATA schools are pretty involved:
http://www.autismspeaks.org/inthenews/naar_archive/ata_kicks_far_for_naar.php


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## shesulsa (May 12, 2008)

Thanks Dave.


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## Kacey (May 12, 2008)

There are good schools and bad schools in all organizations; larger organizations will, by virtue of their size, be more likely to have member schools who do not necessarily reflect the values of the organization at large.  Once a negative image is attached to a particular business or organization, that negative image tends to spread over all areas of the business, deserved or not.

I recently had an experience with a lighting store putting another business down - I went to a hardware store to try to find a light bulb for a track light; they were unable to provide the bulb I needed and suggested I try a lighting store about a mile away, as they would be more likely to have the bulb I needed.  I thanked them for their time and went to the lighting store, where I explained what I needed and that I had been sent by the hardware store.  The person at the lighting store proceeded to state that the employees at the hardware store were idiots (apparently, for not having the bulb in stock... which, it turned out, the lighting store didn't have either).  The entire situation at the lighting store - which included several more put-downs of the hardware store employees, who were quite helpful - left a bitter taste in my mouth toward the lighting store, which I will, quite likely, never visit again.

Likewise, I much prefer to tell people why my class and association are better (e.g., we do X, Y, and Z), than to tell them why others' classes and associations are worse (e.g. we don't do X, Y, and Z like those people down the road).  Others prefer to put themselves up by putting others down... but that's not my style.  I don't like being on the receiving end of it (whether it's about me or not), and therefore I try very hard not to be on the delivery end either.


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