# Is karate too BIG ?



## Mike Clarke (Oct 17, 2002)

I have put these questions to a few karate teachers over the years and have had all kinds of answers.

Is karate too big these days? 
Is there too much of it (too many kata, too many bunkai etc)
Has training in karate become more a test of memory, than anything else?
Has the collecting of techniques become more important than the understanding of them?

I Look forward to you comments.

Reagrds to all,

Mike Clarke.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 17, 2002)

Good question.

I think karate becoming big has turned into a double edged sword.

On one side it is great that many people are interested in pursuing something so noble (talking about the spiritual side where you improve yourself through training) I have met some of the greatest human beings because of karate and I am thankful to have been privileged enough to made their acquaintance. For me karate is not about kicking ***.........well some of it is  but has become a "path" for me, one that I have forgotten why I started on it. 

On the other edge it is bad because it has become so big there are many charlatans that will take your money and give you the *"mushroom treatment"* (e.g. keep you in the dark and feed you lots of sxxxt)
From these  charlatans we get extremely high bogus belt ranks, and "Soke"  
We also get untrained folks teaching and propagating copious amounts of BS. So much so that most untrained folks think the crap is the "real deal". It's really hard to re-educate people that karate is NOT about breaking burning bricks with "numchucks" or doing a flaming "numchuck" kata to a disco beat. 

Mike, 
Just as an aside, when you trained in Okinawa how many 8th,9th,& 10 dans in their 30's, and 40's did you meet?
And how many  "Soke" of about or close to that same age group did you meet ?

I am guessing VERY few.............


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## chufeng (Oct 17, 2002)

I'm guessing...ZERO!!!

:asian:
chufeng


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## Mike Clarke (Oct 17, 2002)

Yes, unfortunatly I think the tail is now wagging the dog in most parts of the world.

As to meeting 8th 9th and 10th dans. I think the youngest 8th dan (real one that is) I've ever met is Higaonna Morio sensei (now living in California). He was in his early 50's when he recieved this, and was considered quite young to have been awarded it.
I know a few people on Okinawa of 9th and 10th dan level and all are in the 70's and 80's (years old that is).

However, since I moved from England to Australia in 1988, I've met more shihans than you can poke a stick at!

I remember a time when it was thought wonderful just to be addressed as sensei. How old does that make me?

I wonder which country has the most 'Masters' 

Mike.


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## chufeng (Oct 17, 2002)

The United States???

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> 
> As to meeting 8th 9th and 10th dans. I think the youngest 8th dan (real one that is) I've ever met is Higaonna Morio sensei (now living in California). He was in his early 50's when he recieved this, and was considered quite young to have been awarded it.[/B]



You know he could have gotten his 8th dan a lot earlier if he didn't train for 6 hrs a day 5 or 6 days a week. He should have followed his western counter parts and gone to a mutual dan rank promotion party..........hell he could have been a 10 th dan Grandpoobah Soke-doke by now.
(joking of course) 




> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> However, since I moved from England to Australia in 1988, I've met more shihans than you can poke a stick at![/B]



Japan has the same problem............lot's of lofty dan rank and nothing behind it except a bunch of lackies.



> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _I remember a time when it was thought wonderful just to be addressed as sensei. How old does that make me?[/B]



Just about the same age as me I guess. I remember when a 3 dan was a sky high rank.



> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _I wonder which country has the most 'Masters'
> 
> [/B]



For the bogus ones.............gotta be the US. They don't call them "sepos" for nothing.


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## Idaten (Oct 18, 2002)

I really admire my sensei for his views about his rank.  He is only a 5th Dan, he is 51 years old, he gave current 6 and 7th dans their green belts.  He believes that once you get into the high belts, karate becomes politics, and that's a grave mistake.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Idaten _
> 
> *I really admire my sensei for his views about his rank.  He is only a 5th Dan, he is 51 years old, he gave current 6 and 7th dans their green belts.  He believes that once you get into the high belts, karate becomes politics, and that's a grave mistake. *



Belts past 5th or 6th dan are usually indicative of proven understanding of the art and time in training and should not be from politics........but, sadly, such is not always the case. Which is why we have so many 8th and 9th dans and _*Soke*_  with such little time in training. It is also due to the _*mutual dan rank societies*_ & _*Soke factories*_that abound the Internet these days were the members give or recognize each others ranks and titles.

Hell, Funakoshi was only a 5th dan and he lived to be almost 90......maybe he just wasn't as good as all the _*Soke*_  we are blessed with today


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## sammy3170 (Oct 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *Belts past 5th or 6th dan are usually indicative of proven understanding of the art and time in training and should not be from politics........but, sadly, such is not always the case. Which is why we have so many 8th and 9th dans and Soke  with such little time in training. It is also due to the mutual dan rank societies & Soke factoriesthat abound the Internet these days were the members give or recognize each others ranks and titles.
> 
> Hell, Funakoshi was only a 5th dan and he lived to be almost 90......maybe he just wasn't as good as all the Soke  we are blessed with today *



There's a guy in Australia who founded his own style and was graded to 7th dan by his students.  He wasn't even a black belt when he founded the art.  It is quite large though.
They are everywhere

Cheers
Sammy


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## Kirk (Oct 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *Belts past 5th or 6th dan are usually indicative of proven understanding of the art and time in training and should not be from politics........but, sadly, such is not always the case. Which is why we have so many 8th and 9th dans and Soke  with such little time in training. It is also due to the mutual dan rank societies & Soke factoriesthat abound the Internet these days were the members give or recognize each others ranks and titles.
> 
> Hell, Funakoshi was only a 5th dan and he lived to be almost 90......maybe he just wasn't as good as all the Soke  we are blessed with today *



What does soke translate to anyways?


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 31, 2002)

Sorry in advance for the long post but I think this translation is one of the more accurate.

Soke:
Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements  
by William M. Bodiford  
Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster." 

Confusion over the word soke, however, is not confined to people who lack Japanese-language skills; it exists in Japan as well. These misunderstandings arise because in premodern and modern Japan the term represents different (yet related) meanings and connotations depending on the diverse contexts in which it appears. We can distinguish several different patterns of usage associated with the term soke throughout Japanese history.3 For this reason, when describing soke in English (or, rather, when arguing about its meaning) it is useful first to chronicle the many ways that this word has been used in the historical record. Then one can better evaluate the ways that this term has been conceptualized by modern writers and applied (or misapplied) in contemporary situations.

Soke originated as a Chinese word (Mandarin zongjia) with strong familial and religious connotations. Etymologically it is written with glyphs indicating a family that performs ancestor rites. In Chinese texts it designates either the members of a household belonging to the same clan or the main lineage within an extended clan, the head of which was responsible for maintaining the ancestral temple on behalf of the entire clan organization. In Japanese texts as well, soke always implied a familial relationship replete with filial duties. Japanese use of this word was not limited to consanguineous contexts, though, since many kinds of social relationships were organized around pseudo-familial models. Religious societies, commercial enterprises, and teaching organizations all employed familial vocabulary and observed rites of familial etiquette. In these contexts, the term soke often implied exclusivity and commercial privilege, with less emphasis on formal religious duties.

For most of early Japanese history the privileges of power, wealth, and civilization were controlled exclusively by the court, the aristocrats, and the Buddhist clergy, all three of which reinforced one another in mutual dependence. As Buddhist clerics developed their combined exoteric-esoteric (ken-mitsu) form of tantra, they gave rise to a shared "culture of secret transmission" (Stone, 97-152). In other words, Buddhist pedagogical systems in which tantric rituals were taught via oral initiations (kuden) available only to members of exclusive master-disciple lineages became the normative teaching method across elite society (Nishiyama 1982b, 146-147). Within this culture, the arts of civilization prized most by wealthy nobles became the exclusive property of certain families. For example, the Nijo and Reizei branches of the aristocratic Fujiwara family each taught and maintained control over mutually exclusive systems of initiation into the mysteries of Japanese poetics (waka). Lower down on the economic ladder, designated merchant families exercised exclusive commercial control over the production and distribution of certain types of manufactured goods used by aristocrats, such as extravagant ceramics (for example, raku ware; Nishiyama 1982b, 51). Those families maintained their hereditary monopolies through the protection and patronage of local nobles or of the court.

These families operated much like corporate entities in which many affiliated kinship groups functioned in unison. Among the members of the united kinship groups only the individual successor--usually the oldest son--of the current family head received full initiation into the secrets of the family craft. Even if proper male progeny did not exist, economic necessity demanded that the main family line always continue since hereditary authority rested with that family alone. Whenever required, therefore, another male from one of the affiliated groups would be brought in and designated as heir to succeed the head of the family. The heir, whether related by blood or adopted, was responsible for maintaining the unity of the corporate families, maintaining their commercial monopoly, and maintaining their good relations with their patrons. Most of all he was responsible for preserving the secret texts, special tools, and knowledge of the oral initiations that constituted his family's exclusive lore. The legitimate possessors of that exclusive lore, both the main family itself as a multi-generational entity, and the individual current head of the family were called the soke. Use of this term was extremely limited, however, until after the establishment of the Tokugawa peace in 1603 provided the conditions for the development of new, more elaborate systems of familial privilege throughout the land. 

During the Tokugawa period (1603-1868) of Japanese history, especially during the eighteenth century, many new types of artistic and cultural activities came under the domination of families that exercised proprietary authority over the performance of those arts and endeavors by others. These new familial lineages, which essentially operated as commercial guilds, referred to themselves as soke. The leading expert on this subject is a Japanese scholar named Nishiyama Matsunosuke. Early in his career, Nishiyama wrote two seminal studies of soke families and the ways they exercised their authority during this period of Japanese history: Iemoto monogatari (Iemoto Stories, 1956; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982a) and Iemoto no kenkyu (Researches in the Iemoto System, 1960; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982b).4 Although Nishiyama settled on the term iemoto, in the Tokugawa-period texts he studied the words iemoto and soke were used interchangeably, without any distinction in meaning (Nishiyama 1982b, 15). Both words were used to refer to the main lineage that asserted proprietary authority over a commercial guild or to refer to the person who had attained full initiation as the current legitimate head of that lineage.

Nishiyama cites several factors that contributed to the development of familial lineages (i.e., soke) as commercial guilds. The Tokugawa regime placed governmental authority in the hands of an upper echelon of warrior families who maintained their positions of power through assertions of hereditary privilege and attempts to enforce rigid codes of social distinctions. These new warrior elites readily accepted similar assertions of familial authority over the codification and teaching of artistic endeavors (Nishiyama 1982b, 91-92). Moreover, the warrior rulers patronized many new performative arts and forms of amusement that had developed independently from and, thus, outside the control of the old aristocratic families. It was the teachers of these new amusements--arts such as tea ceremony (chanoyu), flower arranging (ikebana), chess (shogi), Noh theater, verse (haikai), special forms of music and dance, and so forth--that most quickly asserted familial control over their teaching and over their performance by others (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-140). Finally, the long period of peace produced many unemployed former warriors (ronin) who could seek employment as junior instructors in these guilds; at the same time, the end of incessant warfare promoted the economic prosperity that enabled townsmen and rural landowners to amass surplus wealth that they could spend as pupils of these arts.

The existence of a network of junior instructors (i.e., natori) who taught in the name of the soke is a crucial feature that distinguished Tokugawa-period soke families from their earlier counterparts (Nishiyama 1982b, 106). During the Tokugawa period, instruction in the special skills associated with a particular artistic endeavor was marketed through networks of branch instructors who paid royalties and license fees to the soke and who were organized into a pyramid-like hierarchical structure with the soke on top. The soke asserted absolute authority over the branch instructors and indirect authority over their students by controlling what, how, and when subjects could be taught and by restricting access to the most advanced lore, to which the soke alone was privy. Nishiyama labeled the social structures associated with this type of exclusive familial control and networks of branch instructors the iemoto system (iemoto seido). He saw it as a unique feature of Japanese feudalism that exerted a strong influence over the development of many traditional Japanese arts even until modern times (Nishiyama 1982b, 20-21). 

These Tokugawa-period artistic lineages can be likened to commercial guilds because they earned money from every single person who participated in their particular school's craft or art throughout the entire country. Nishiyama (1982b, 16) neatly summarizes the commercial rights (kenri) of these familial guilds as follows:

1. Rights regarding the techniques (waza) of the art, such as the right to keep it secret, the right to control how and when it is performed, and rights over the repertoire of its curriculum and its choreography (kata).

2. Rights over instructors (kyoju), over initiation rituals and documents (soden), and over the awarding of diplomas and licenses (menkyo).

3. The right to punish (chobatsu) and to expel (hamon) students.

4. The right to control uses of costumes, of stage names or artistic pseudonyms, and so forth.

5. The right to control facilities and special equipment or tools used in the art.

6. Exclusive rights to the monetary income and social status resulting from the preceding five items.

For almost every art or amusement patronized by the ruling elite, there existed only a limited number of these familial guilds, each one of which enforced the above rights over anyone who practiced that art throughout the entire kingdom.5 No one could legally perform a play, a song, a musical piece, or practice any other art in public without either joining the soke's school or paying fees for temporary permission (ichinichi soden). Enforcement of these exclusive rights enabled soke families to control huge populations of students across all strata of society. Nishiyama argues that from the middle of the eighteenth century these guilds provided a government-regulated medium for the distribution of cultural knowledge within which people assigned to different social classes (samurai of various ranks, townsmen, merchants, priests, wealthy farmers, rural warriors, etc.) could interact with one another on a near-equal footing (Nishiyama 1982b, 531; 1997, 204-208).

Nishiyama's research demonstrates that the near-monopoly control over the teaching of peaceful arts exercised by Tokugawa-period soke effectively prevented the proliferation of rival schools. In short, where soke existed, there were no new schools. The very creation of new schools repudiated any notion of soke authority (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-137). Seen in this light, it is obvious that the word soke in premodern Japanese documents could never be translated into English as "founder." The notion of "founder" is even less appropriate in modern Japan.

After 1868, when Japan became organized as a modern state, the government formally recognized the legal rights of soke (a.k.a. iemoto) families to control the copyright of all musical scores, theatrical plays, textbooks, and artistic works produced by members of their guilds (Nishiyama 1982b, 16). In this way, the terms soke and iemoto acquired legal definitions as designations for the modern representatives of the limited number of families who could provide historical documentation that they had controlled these kinds of commercial guilds during the Tokugawa period. To maintain their copyrights, the leaders of these families had to register with the government as legal entities. At the same time that they acquired copyrights, they lost their previous ability to restrict the teaching or performance of their arts by people from outside their guild. They became just one school or performance group among many. While they can restrict unauthorized use of their own name and their own historical resources, they have no legal power to inhibit competition. Today, as long as there is no copyright infringement, anyone can write new instructional guides to tea ceremony or any other traditional art. Anyone is free to devise new methods for practicing them.

Use of the term soke (or iemoto) in martial contexts is even more complex. Before 1868, soke families that were organized into the kinds of commercial guilds described above never controlled instruction in martial arts. This is the reason so many different lineages (ryuha) of martial arts existed in premodern Japan. The contrast between teaching organizations devoted to peaceful arts (such as tea ceremony, flower arranging, and so forth) and those concerned with martial arts could not be more stark. Instruction in any of the peaceful arts was available only from a small number of familial lineages, each one of which organized itself into a commercial guild with a network of affiliated branch instructors available throughout the land. On the other hand, there existed hundreds of different martial art lineages, the vast majority of which were confined to a single location.6 While many martial lineages were consanguineous (i.e., handed down from father to son), many others were not.

Nishiyama (1982b, 273-278) identifies several reasons why martial art lineages never developed into iemoto (a.k.a. soke) systems. Prior to the establishment of the Tokugawa peace, rapid acquisition of military prowess constituted the sine qua non of any system of martial instruction. An instructor who withheld instruction in the most advanced techniques as a family secret, as was the norm among soke who taught peaceful arts, could not have attracted students. For this reason, during the sixteenth century, military students usually attained full initiation rather quickly, after which they were free to teach all that they had learned to their own students. If anyone issued diplomas, they did so on their own authority, without having to pay license fees to any larger organization. After the Tokugawa regime imposed peace on the land, both older and new schools of martial instruction became more structured, more secretive, and developed more complex and time-consuming curriculums. Students who received diplomas no longer necessarily acquired independent rights to issue diplomas themselves.7 The ruling authorities also actively prevented any warrior groups or martial schools from developing organizational bonds across domain boundaries.8 Moreover, the rulers of each individual domain preferred to patronize only their own local martial systems, which could be kept under their own local control. Finally, in an age of peace it became practically impossible for any one martial lineage or group of lineages to demonstrate decisively their superiority over their rivals. Innovative teachers could (and did) devise new methods of martial training and establish new schools without having to risk lives to demonstrate their combat effectiveness.

Osano Jun (187-192) argues that the first martial art in Japan to adopt a true soke system was the Kodokan School of judo. Osano could be right. The Kodokan set the standards not just for members within one training hall in one location, but for all participants in judo throughout the nation. The Kodokan defined the art; it controlled licensing and instruction; and it established branch schools with instructors who maintained permanent affiliation with the headquarters. If the Kodokan does not recognize something as being "judo," then it is not judo. Therefore, there is no such thing as a new style of judo. All of these elements constitute essential characteristics of traditional soke organizations in Tokugawa-period Japan. In actual practice, however, no one ever refers to the Kodokan, or its current head, as the soke of judo.9 The term seems out of place with judo's emphasis on modernity. Having analyzing the term soke in this way, Osano also criticizes the present-day use of the soke label by some Japanese teachers who represent traditional martial art lineages (i.e., koryu). Osano asserts that such usage not only is incorrect but also reveals an ignorance of traditional Japanese culture.

Osano's strict historical understanding is probably too strict. He overlooks the legal and social changes in the status of soke that occurred after 1868. After Japan began to modernize, social critics denounced soke organizations as a disagreeable legacy of a feudal system based on hereditary privilege, which stifled innovation and restricted knowledge for the financial benefit of undeserving family heads who no longer possessed the skills of their ancestors (Nishiyama 1982c, 263-273). Soke organizations saw their networks of branch instructors wither as interest in traditional arts declined and former students broke away to found rival schools.10 Soon many traditional soke disappeared, especially in arts based on direct competition among participants such as Japanese chess (shogi) and in less well-known forms of dance and song. As more and more of these intangible cultural legacies disappeared, modern Japanese gradually developed a new appreciation for the soke families who had managed to preserve their own family traditions and teach them to new generations. Without the determination and persistence of the heirs of these families, direct knowledge of many traditional Japanese arts would have been lost. 

Today one could argue that the historical differences between the heirs of Tokugawa-period family lineages which operated as commercial guilds (with the natori system) and the heirs of localized teaching lineages such as those associated with martial traditions are less significant than their modern similarities. In both cases the current successors remain the only legitimate sources for traditional forms of instruction in the arts of that lineage. In both cases the current successors have assumed responsibility for preserving the historical texts, special tools, unique skills, and specific lore that have been handed down within their own particular lineage. In both cases the current successors distinguish their traditional teachings from newly founded rivals by pointing out how their teachings remain faithful to the goals and forms taught by previous generations. Based on these similarities, many modern writers use the terms iemoto or soke as designations for the legitimate heir to any established main lineage. Used in reference to present-day representatives of traditional martial art lineages, therefore, the soke label properly denotes their roles as successors to and preservers of a particular historical and cultural legacy. It should not be interpreted as implying identification with a commercial network (as criticized by Osano) nor as being equivalent to "grandmaster" or "founder" (as mistakenly assumed by casual observers), and might best be translated simply as "head" or "headmaster."

Consider, for example, the case of Kashima-Shinryu (see Friday, Legacies of the Sword). In his books and articles, Seki Humitake, the current head of and nineteenth-generation successor to the Kashima- Shinryu lineage, uses the label soke as a designation for the Kunii family. He uses this term as a way of honoring the role the Kunii family played in preserving Kashima-Shinryu traditions. Down to the time of Seki's teacher, Kunii Zen'ya (1894-1966), Kashima-Shinryu forms of martial lore had been passed down consanguineously within the Kunii family from father to son from one generation to the next. Seki's modern use of the label soke simply acknowledges that legacy.11 In the writings of Kunii Zen'ya and in the traditional scrolls preserved within the Kunii family, however, the word soke cannot be found. Kunii Zen'ya never referred to himself or to his family as the soke of Kashima-Shinryu. He simply signed his name. In writing out copies of his family's old scrolls (these copies would be handed out as diplomas), though, he usually would add the words "Kunii-ke soden" before the title of each scroll. For example, if he copied an old scroll titled "Kenjutsu mokuroku" he would give it the title "Kunii-ke soden kenjutsu mokuroku." In this example, the original title simply means "fencing curriculum" while the longer version means "the fencing curriculum transmitted within the Kunii family." Used to represent this sense of "transmitted within a family," the term soke seems perfectly reasonable. It merely implies that the lore associated with this curriculum was taught exclusively within the Kunii familial lineage.

In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist.* One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke.* At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize.


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## Kirk (Nov 1, 2002)

WOW!!  That was damned interesting to read!  A lot more than
I expected, but I'm into details, so thanks!  I know it took you a
bit of time to type all of that in, I appreciate it, and I read every
word.  Thanks again


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 1, 2002)

RyuShiKan,
  May I echo Kirk's reply.  Thank you for takeing the time to define the word Soke.  A verry interesting translation and history of the word.
Shadow:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Nov 1, 2002)

Actually I didn't type it out........I'm pretty lazy.
Here is the link where I got from. If you click on the authors name you can see his profile. He seems to be well educated on the subject.

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wbodiford1.html


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## chufeng (Nov 1, 2002)

So the term Soke is probably MORE appropriately applied to the Tae Kwon Do groups??? With all that controlling this and that...
With a % of student tuition going back to the "parent" organization...no wonder they charge so much for so little...

Please realize, this is a tongue in cheek comment...don't want to start any Flame Wars in this peaceful thread.

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Nov 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *So the term Soke is probably MORE appropriately applied to the Tae Kwon Do groups??? With all that controlling this and that...
> With a % of student tuition going back to the "parent" organization...no wonder they charge so much for so little...
> chufeng *




Most organizations in Japan have this kind of "tithe" system where the branch dojos all pay dues to the Honbu dojo. Except I rarelt hear the title Soke thrown around.
In fact, the JKA, JKF, and Kyokushinkai all run this sort of system. 
Kyokushin has a good idea where if you enroll in one dojo you can train any of the branch dojos, kind of like a large sports club with many branches. All you do is present your membership ID card and your all set.


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## chufeng (Nov 5, 2002)

All branch schools under the YiLiQuan Association pay a licensing fee annually...this keeps the instructors honest (no renegades) and provides a source of funding for Association Publications.

Additionally, each student is required to pay a small annual fee ($25). The Association by-laws forbid instructors to teach those who do not belong to the Association. BUT any Association member can train at ANY YiLiQuan club...and the members do get weekly lectures by e-mail and access to Association Publications and training videos (not available to general public).

When you look at what most dojos charge these days, our Association fees are tiny in comparison. Each club can set their own fees for tuition...and since most of our clubs are "not-for-profit" tuition fees are WAY more reasonable than other local dojo fees. Total cost to student, annually, is a fraction of what they would pay elsewhere. 

My practice is to provide one free lesson, and then, if the individual wants to come back for more, have the person join the Association...even if they only stay for three lessons, they get top-notch instruction (with nothing held back) and will have paid less than they would have paid for one weeks worth of lessons at local dojos...even if they never come back, they will continue to receive weekly lectures by e-mail until their membership expires.
Not a bad deal...

If they stay...
well, RyuShiKan, you've worked with a YiLi senior...
Rank??? bah...
Money??? bah...
Training??? Yeah !!!
Real training... Hell yeah !!!!!!!!!

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Nov 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *well, RyuShiKan, you've worked with a YiLi senior...
> Rank??? bah...
> ...



What Yili senior has RyuShiKan worked with???


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## chufeng (Nov 6, 2002)

The Fatboy, of course...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Nov 6, 2002)

Oh, see, I thought you said "Yili _senior_."  

While RyuShiKan had the (dis)pleasure of trying to get my silly looking, monkey smelling butt to try and learn Naihanchi Shodan, I don't think he has ever had the chance to train with a Yili _senior_.

I'm just a beginner... 

Besides, the only Yili "seniors" that I know of are you, Mr. B and The Old Man.

:asian:


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## chufeng (Nov 7, 2002)

Senior does not refer to age...
It refers to those who have achieved Black Sash level...
The other part of Senior is Student...
Senior Student...after spending 16 years in the system, YOU qualify as a senior (whether you like it or not)...

Are you still a beginner? Of course, in many ways...but, then, aren't we all?

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Nov 7, 2002)

You really have a way of taking the air out of a smart *** remark...


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## chufeng (Nov 7, 2002)

Stinks, don't it?

 
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Nov 7, 2002)

yeah, mostly...

back to karate...


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## GojuBujin (Nov 27, 2002)

Osu,

So many teachers were opposed to ranking.  I know Miyagi Sensei did.  

There was  a  time when there was only to Godan If i'mnot mistaken and shodan or Nidan was a really big deal.  I think it still is in traditional dojos

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai


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## Mike Clarke (Nov 29, 2002)

That's right Michael, in times past  godan was it. 
I think the whole dan/kyu system came about as part of the Okinawa push to have karate-do accepted by the Japanese, in deed, early Okinawans were not graded [as such] but 'recognised' by their teacher as having reached a particular level of understanding. 
In the Japanese Shotokai, I believe godan is still the highest rank issued. They do this because Funakoshi sensei had that rank, and no one wants to by placed higher than him.
You're correct also when you say that in 'traditional' dojo shodan and nidan are still a big deal. In mine they are anyway!
Regards,
Mike Clarke.


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## vin2k0 (Mar 27, 2003)

Each sensei has different teaching methods. Some may concentrate too much teaching all the techniques rather than understanding each of them and the application of them. My own sensei breaks each technique down so that you fully understand it. 

Karate may well be 'too big', but this does not effect your individual learning. If you are keen to learn and develop both your technique and your mind your sensei will have much more time for you than he will for people who just come to keep fit, etc.

 :asian:


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## Jill666 (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *I have put these questions to a few karate teachers over the years and have had all kinds of answers.
> 
> Is karate too big these days?
> ...



Yes, yes, yes and yes. 

I honestly believe many of us have reached the point where the collection of kata becomes an exercise in futility. For myself, I have several new, half-developed kata. I have to live with a kata for awhile. The more I work on the moves, the more it becomes ingrained in muscle memory, the more I can see applications for the moves, and feel the flow. I see the power generated here, and picture an extension there. But the new forms- eh, I'm just trying to keep up in the class. Which I think is a waste of time. 

Why do we have techniques? Well one story is that some guy makes it home from a battlefield without dying, and teaches others- "I did this here- and it worked". And a waza is born. I don't know if that is true at all, but I like it. But when it becomes a contest who can pull out more techniques or whether Dance of Death is better than Sweeping Tiger, things get ridiculous.

How many people spar and use more than a few moves and a couple of combinations? Probably not many- unless you are very experienced. On the street how many moves will you do? How many do you want to do before extricating yourself from whatever difficulty you find yourself in? I am just as happy working on a different approach or extension to a technique I have to adapt my skills than to try to commit yet another kata to my limited memory. I get more jazzed by obtaining a useful insight into a move. 

As for karate as a whole, an art, or a curriculum in a school of study, I'll defer to the teachers. Those are my initial thoughts  :asian:


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## D.Cobb (Mar 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *For the bogus ones.............gotta be the US. They don't call them "sepos" for nothing. *



No, actually we call you guys *"SEPO'S"* , because it is short for the rhyming slang we use. 
*SEPTIC TANK = YANK* 

I told you, we talk funny!

--Dave


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## RyuShiKan (Mar 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *No, actually we call you guys "SEPO'S" , because it is short for the rhyming slang we use.
> SEPTIC TANK = YANK
> 
> ...



Unlike Garbos


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## Mike Clarke (Mar 29, 2003)

Garbos............Didn't she just want to be alone 

Mike.


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## D.Cobb (Mar 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Unlike Garbos *



Exactly!! See I knew you'd pick it up!

--Dave

:rofl:


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## D.Cobb (Mar 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Garbos............Didn't she just want to be alone
> 
> Mike. *



Mr. Clarke, you are now being treated with the contempt, that that comment deserves.

--Dave


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## RyuShiKan (Mar 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *No, actually we call you guys "SEPO'S" , because it is short for the rhyming slang we use.
> SEPTIC TANK = YANK
> 
> ...




In the martial arts world I have heard them referred to Over Ranked Yanks.

How would you shorten that to something along the lines of SEPO???


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## Mike Clarke (Mar 31, 2003)

STRUTH !!!!

Keep your hair on cobber. 

Mike.


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## D.Cobb (Apr 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *In the martial arts world I have heard them referred to Over Ranked Yanks.
> 
> How would you shorten that to something along the lines of SEPO??? *



I think you might need to go back to my earlier post again,

We know that *SEPTIC TANK = YANK.* 
ergo this could mean that *YANK = FULL OF S**T* 

I'm not sure on this, but if it were otherwise, wouldn't we then settle for water tank or petrol tank or similar.

*DISCLAIMER:* 
Please note, this is not to say that I think Yanks are full of it in general. For the most part, I have found you guys to be quite decent people. I'm just trying to nut out some nuances, that come out of the way certain terms may have come into our lingo.
I'm almost certain that this term came about during the 2nd WW. It used to be said that the Yanks were OVER PAID, OVER SEXED, & OVER HERE!

No offence is intended to anyone here.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Apr 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *STRUTH !!!!
> 
> Keep your hair on cobber.
> ...



Hey Mike, I hope you realize that post was written in humour.  I just wanted to let you know that I thought the joke was poor at best.  

--Dave
It is so hard to grin while you write,,,,,


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 2, 2003)

No worries Dave.

Unfortunatly, all my jokes are poor. I'll try to do better next time 

I didn't think it was 'that' bad though?

If you're ever down Launceston way don't forget to make contact. I'll show you how I do my kata, and that  'will' have you laughing 

All the best,
Mike


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## D.Cobb (Apr 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *No worries Dave.
> 
> Unfortunatly, all my jokes are poor. I'll try to do better next time
> ...



Are you in Tassie? Or is there a Launceston in WA, or am I just getting muddled up thinking you are in the West?

--Dave

 

P.s., yes it was *THAT* bad!


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm in Tassie Dave.

I lived in W.A. [ Fremantle] for ten years and didn't know there was a Launceston over that way?????

This place was named after the town in the South West on England by the early settlers [some of whom are still alive by the way and are still on the local council  ]

Mike.


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## D.Cobb (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *I'm in Tassie Dave.
> 
> I lived in W.A. [ Fremantle] for ten years and didn't know there was a Launceston over that way?????
> ...



I don't know if there is a Launceston over that way either, it's just that I (for some unknown reason) thought you were in WA.
Now that I know you're in Tassie, when I get down your way I'll have to drop in and say Hi.

--Dave

:asian:


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 5, 2003)

Dave,

If you were a reader of either of the now defunct; Australaisian Fighting Arts magazine, or Tery O'Neill's Fighting Arts International, you may well have picked up some of my work from my days in Fremantle/Perth.

Anytime you're down this way your always welcome at my place. And as the dojo is here also, don't forget to bring your do-gi.

Mike.


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## D.Cobb (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Dave,
> 
> If you were a reader of either of the now defunct; Australaisian Fighting Arts magazine, or Tery O'Neill's Fighting Arts International, you may well have picked up some of my work from my days in Fremantle/Perth.
> *



Actually I have read many issues of both, so that is probably why.



> *
> Anytime you're down this way your always welcome at my place. And as the dojo is here also, don't forget to bring your do-gi.*



Sounds like a plan!!

--Dave

:asian:


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 6, 2003)

"Make it so."


Mike.


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## D.Cobb (Apr 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *"Make it so."
> 
> 
> Mike. *



*OH MY GOD!!!* 

(whispering) He's a trekkie!


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 10, 2003)

Hey Dave,
I use to be a Klingon,  but I got wiped out 

Now you got to think that's funny!!!!!

Mike


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## D.Cobb (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Hey Dave,
> I use to be a Klingon,  but I got wiped out
> 
> ...



 
It's life, Jim, but not as we know it!


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