# The Martial Arts Theory of Everything



## Tgace (Jan 21, 2004)

"The principle of strategy is having one thing, to know ten thousand things..."-Miyamoto Musashi

The topic a friend and I have been discussing around the coffee cup lately is the ultimate purpose of studying martial arts. What is the real purpose we spend our time and money in the dojo? Granted different people come to MA schools for different reasons; self-defense, self-improvement, fitness, art, etc. then there are some who desire to live a martial lifestyle, which I want to discuss here. In my definition, a martial lifestyle goes beyond mere physical technique. 

Differences in size, strength, fitness, experience etc. make it virtually impossible for any style of martial art to guarantee success in a confrontation to any degree of certainty.  Internal aspects of mindset, situational awareness and fighting spirit have as large a role in combat as technique. We all have probably met black belts who, while technically proficient, would probably get their @$$ kicked in a fight. Ive seen some people, very good MAists, loose their fighting spirit the moment they caught a good shot to the face. Martial Arts is ultimately (IMHO) a way of thinking as much as its a physical exercise. Musashi states in the book of five rings (loosely) The way is not found in pursuits such as tea, flower arranging or dancing. But when the way is understood it can be found in everything. I interpret this to mean that once you have realized the martial lifestyle you begin to see MAs in other pursuits and realize that other skills can enhance your martial arts practice. Not too long ago, Paul M. posted that his hockey playing crossed over into this. He began to see MA principles enhancing his play and the physical training/athletic mindset enhancing his MA. 

The Samurai, one of the most proficient individual fighters in history studied many different weapons, skills and arts; sword, bow, spear, horseback riding, swimming, unarmed fighting, firearms, fortifications etc. Our modern elite warriors (SEAL/DELTA etc.) have to be trained in many skills other than fighting; communications, navigation, driving, climbing, rappelling, combat medicine, call for fire (arty/air support), demolitions, as well as weapon skills and CQB, to name a few. The question I have is why do many martial artists believe themselves to be warriors (Ive seen what I believe to be misuse of that term often) just because they are trained in unarmed/contact weapon fighting? One of the things I like about the recent trend towards combatives is that it approaches fighting as the unarmed component of self-defense. An issue in this approach is where does the burden lie in training? Is it on the student to determine his/her course and find the training on his or her own? Should instructors be bringing in seminar instructors on various topics or network with various sources to make other skills available? (i.e. bringing in Red Cross first aid instructors, NRA firearms teachers to train firearm safety)

Well, I could keep on going on this topic, about what I believe training should include and so on, but I think Ill stop here. anybody of similar mentality?


----------



## Cruentus (Jan 21, 2004)

> "The principle of strategy is having one thing, to know ten thousand things..."-Miyamoto Musashi



I love that quote. I will respond briefly.

I think that if Martial Arts don't cross over into your daily life, then you are not really a "warrior." Just because I spar on Tuesdays and/or tapi-tapi on thursdays, this does not make me a warrior. 

Those who fit the Bill more readily to be warriors would be active Military and LEO. Why? Because their jobs depend on their combative abilities from one degree to another, so thier combative training immediately crosses over into their jobs, and their daily lives. They should be walking the walk.

However, what about people who aren't in the protection field? THey have to strive a bit harder to walk like a warrior. They have to carry over their martial arts into their everyday lives.

Now, I can't speak for others, but one way that Martial Arts carries over into my daily life is through the idea of "perfection." I train for perfection; I train to achieve a 'perfect' fighting ability. Yet, the more I train, the more I realize how far away from perfect I really am. Yet the more I realize how perfect I am not, the better I become. So its a constant paradox between struggle and conflict, to harmony and improvement that allows me to get better in the martial arts every day. This will continue until I die.

I try to carry over this paradox of perfection into my daily life. I try to do better, and strive for perfection in all that I do. And the more I fail, as in martial arts, the more I can overcome, and the better I can become.

With that, I think its time that I get back to work, and strive for perfection here in my career!


----------



## Tgace (Jan 28, 2004)

Seing the lack of response, I was going to let this thread die out. But something that Paul said about being a warrior made me think...perhaps there should be a distinction between being a "warrior" and having a "warrior mindset". 

Perhaps on an occupational level, military/LEO's are our societies equivalent of warriors, but within those occupations (having some experience in bolth) there are some (many?) that dont have a "warrior mindset". Many just see it as a job. "Warriorship" isnt a byproduct of occupation, it is a way of thinking that I think everybody is capable of.


----------



## Dijos (Jan 29, 2004)

Hear, Hear!
There still is a Warrior class-Leo/military and others.  People who fought for a living, or as part of living are largely passed except for a select few.  Many of us are probably thankful that they do not have to defend the village every day..sometimes I think there's too much art, and not enough Martial.  We train for weapons that are carried and used by people of today-Just because there weren't guns in the 15th century doesn't mean I won't run into them-likewise, Who wears a gi in real life?  If I grab someone's t-shirt to throw, it's likel that it will tear, and my oponent will land on me.  I feel the growth of combatives is an attempt to regain warrior spirit-remember, the weak would have been killed quickly on the battlefield.--Joe :asian:


----------



## loki09789 (Jan 30, 2004)

I read a bio by a Vietnam era SEAL "Bear" Enoch, who talked about the training he was encouraged to get.  Some of the unexpected skills based on stereotypic views were things like horseback riding, mule packing CDL licensing, Herbology, thatching and stuff that sounds like summercamp activities more than Elite combat skills.

The impression that I got from this was that, civilian or military/leo, part of the warrior spirit and mentallity is to take in any experience, knowledge and skill and constantly be learning, because you never know how or when some bizaar piece of knowledge can come in handy.  It reminds me of the old McGyver series where he used rough science to solve crisis problems.  My only problem was his refusal to use guns and the like, but it was only tv.

Paul Martin


----------



## loki09789 (Jan 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dijos _
> *Hear, Hear!
> There still is a Warrior class-Leo/military and others.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tgace (Jan 30, 2004)

Exactly! Thats why I believe that being a "warrior" is not an issue of occupation. Its a way of thinking/looking at life.


----------



## sercuerdasfigther (Jan 30, 2004)

military and leo=soldiers paid to fight the battles they are told to fight.

warrior= one adapt at combat who fights the battles the see just.

 just my opinion.

                                                                                      rob


----------



## Pappy Geo (Jan 31, 2004)

There are warriors that are the real thing like the Special Ops and then there are wanna bees. No matter how much I train, what my mind set is I am still a wanna bee.

I have spent the last 3 years with the 1st group SF here at Fort Lewis, WA as an assistant instructor to Kelly Worden instructing 3 mornings a week at O'Dark:30. I have met and touched hands with many true American Warriors .......I know the difference. They are the real thing!


----------



## DoxN4cer (Feb 3, 2004)

I agree with you there, Pappy, Tom and Rob.

Warriorship is more than being part of a military organization.

It's more than training in martial arts and attaining technical skill.

It's more than fighting the good fight.

It's a mindset, and a philosophy that many expound, but a humble few actually live.  

While the closest thing we have to a warrior class is out military and LEO communities, I wouldn't classify a number of our military members as "warriors": particularly the REMFs (Rear Echelon MF's).  I'm sure you guys with military experience know what I'm saying. 

Tim Kashino


----------



## Tgace (Feb 3, 2004)

Im with ya...Same page of the same book Tim.  

P.S. Did you get that "force wheel" e-mail I sent ya? (finally)


----------



## Pappy Geo (Feb 4, 2004)

The odyssey of a true warrior:

Working with the Special Forces teaching combative arts the past 3 years I have met many fine examples of America's finest warriors. This is a brief story of a team leader Sergeant who became a very close brother to the NSI family and I am honored to call him a friend.

To protect his name and for security reasons I will simple call this man Sergeant X

When we first started this program at the Special Forces compound at Fort Lewis, WA a relationship developed with Sergeant X. He came with a common background in Arnis having trained with several Masters in the Philippines and had over 20 years martial arts training. Sergeant X expanded his martial arts training by spending a lot of time in addition to the SF training with Datu Worden and the club.

He retired from the army with over 20 years of dedication and most of his career was with Special Forces. We as civilians cannot conceive nor are we aware of the constant deployment missions Specials Ops are subject to both standard and covert. Yes, covert missions are alive and well in our Special Ops military. Between the constant training and actual missions think of the years of stress and adrenaline rushes. 

The first year after retirement Sergeant X spent working and instructing in airport security. All this did was make is life miserable and Sergeant X ended up quitting and spending a couple of months in the Philippines going through a mid-life crisis. Now stop and think about the circle of acquaintances a Special Ops person has. They have a special bond amongst themselves and gravitate to each other, maybe subconsciously but it happens.

While in the Philippines he gravitated to a group of operatives and was offered a position under a US umbrella in Afghanistan to develop a security force for the protection of the new King. This was right after the Taliban was ousted and the country was in a turmoil and the King had just had an assassination attempt. The objective was to turn, believe this or not, goat herders into a viable security force for the king and to bodyguard the king until his own force was trained. The training schedule was a rugged 16 hours a day mostly seven days a week. The tour had its hazardous encounters with the training camp being mortared and attacked by insurgents. He was paid very well for the commitment especially when compared to military pay that he had been used to.

I invited Sergeant X last fall when he had returned home to be a guest instructor at my school and he showed us a slide show from his lap top with unbelievable pictures from Afghanistan and shared stories of the deployment. His instructor training team were Who's Who of Special Ops, guys from the SF, Seals, CIA and so on. I am sure glad they are on our side!

Now he is imbedded in Iraq leading a Special Ops team so covert we haven't received any usual emails for a couple of months.

Sergeant X to me is the epitome of a contemporary 21st century warrior.


----------



## Cruentus (Feb 4, 2004)

Good story about sergaent X. I have 3 friends (one who was supposed to stand up in my wedding this year) who are spec. ops., and who will be in Iraq real soon. I have another 3 friends who are in the regular military as well (2 army, 1 airforce). My future sister and brother in law are also both airforce.

Most of my close friends are probably younger then Sergaent X, but I have met some of their older sergaents through training sessions, and different other opportunities.

My friends, as well as yours over in Washington State have been given the responsability of the warrior class. I respect them for the job they have taken on. I also pray for their safety, and encourage them to walk the walk of the warrior.

I think its great that you and Datu Worden have been able to do your part to help our troops through your guidence and instruction.I know how that is. It's nice to be able to put years of training to good use!

PAUL


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 4, 2004)

"The first year after retirement Sergeant X spent working and instructing in airport security. All this did was make is life miserable and Sergeant X ended up quitting and spending a couple of months in the Philippines going through a mid-life crisis."

Not that I was an operator at the level of your Sgt X by any means, but I know that I, and probably anyone who leaves the service - and views life with a warrior spirit - goes through a serious adjustment problems when they first get out.

I left Active duty USMC and joined a reserve unit right away.  My, then girlfriend, use to say that I would just start to get human over the course of a month and then I would get a dose of JarHead on the drill weekend/two weeks and it would start all over again.  

The same process happend after I joined my buddy TGAce's MP unit and got deployed to Bosnia (Thanks again Tom).  Huge adjustment issues.

There is a distinct difference in mentallity when you have served and then don't anymore.

Paul M.


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 4, 2004)

Please don't confuse my posting to mean that I don't think that warriors exist right now.  I think that there are warriors among all members/jobs in and out of the service - I would definitely consider SF/Operatives as modern day warriors.

My distinction is the term Warrior Class.  Samurai and other warriors came from a social strata in the society, and were groomed from childhood on to take on the role of warrior.  It was usually a closed class that did not let in knew members if you weren't born into it.

In our time, anyone can become a soldier/sailor/Marine/Airman... and rise through the ranks. In the US, there are no special status rights and priviledges for the Warrior- Class.  Actually the abolishment of the Japanese recognition of the special status of Samurai is the historical root for the movie THE LAST SAMURAI.

The warrior spirit, ingenuity, will and craftiness is alive in well, but there is not a separate, specially treated class in America and most modern countries.  There is recognition and benefits, but that comes after you have served already - big difference.

Paul Martin


----------



## Cruentus (Feb 4, 2004)

Wow man...your getting pretty technical.

I said "given the responsability of the warrior class" to mean "given the responsability of protecting our country, freedoms, and our way of life."

PAUL


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 4, 2004)

Paul J,

Comment wasn't directed at your post, just rereading some of the past stuff and clarifying my point in general

"Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, it's always about Marsha!"  

Paul M.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2004)

I train, spend time, and lots of money, all because I enjoy it.

Simple, Simple, Simple, I enjoy it.


Does it make me a warrior? I will let others decide that.

As for protecting the Villiage, I just wish I could protect it from the Local Idiot.    I mean, if I could protect the villiage from ...   I would


----------



## Tgace (Feb 4, 2004)

The best any of us can do is to try and live life like a warrior, I could care less what anybody else thinks of or calls me....and that covers a lot more than training in any martial art....


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 4, 2004)

Rich,

Protect your village from the local idiot: VOTE They are the idiots with the largest range of effect.


----------



## Tgace (Feb 6, 2004)

Heres an interesting site with American Indian definitions of warriorship and some of their modern "warrior socities".


http://users.rttinc.com/~asiniwachi/Rwarrior.html#warrior


----------



## Rich Parsons (Feb 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Rich,
> 
> Protect your village from the local idiot: VOTE They are the idiots with the largest range of effect. *



I vote and I would vote more often, if I could figure a way to do it and keep my morals.


----------



## mandirigma (Feb 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tgace _
> *The best any of us can do is to try and live life like a warrior, I could care less what anybody else thinks of or calls me....and that covers a lot more than training in any martial art.... *



Such a good topic.  Struggle with that a lot myself.

A)  I think martial arts can be a pervasive system of thinking.  Anything can be a system of thought.  For example, let's say one is a scientist, and has "mastered" scientific method.  That is certainly a type of skill that's applicable in other aspects of life.  MA's can teach us the similar things: powers of observation, hard work, reward, defeat, self-esteem, fun, hypothesis testing, etc.  MA's offer skills of all kinds to those willing to look for them. 

B)  A true martialist, IMHO, derives the greatest benefits from their mindset.  The distinguishing characteristic of a warrior is their thinking, their mindset.  Think of all the martial artists you know who are missing proper mindset.  How many black belts leave the school and shuffle across the parking lot, without a hint of awareness?  How many very experienced teachers of "self-defense" ride around town with their car doors unlocked?  When car-jacked, would you rather have 4 black belts, a shotgun, guard dog and a light saber under your seat or would you rather have your door locked and room in front of you to drive?  Mindset is the hallmark of a warrior.  

C)  Yes, as warriors, IMHO, we should seek out all pragmatic disciplines related to our art.  We should know the law, some basic first aid, conflict resolution, etc.  Warriors should spend as much time caring for their loved ones as training (after all, what are you training to survive for?).  

So MA give us many benefits.  However, for example, playing rugby with the local club also gives you discipline, work ethic, physicality, and probably the ability and resolve to defend yourself (those guys are tough!).  The question, then, is what does being a warrior REALLY give us that we couldn't get elsewhere?  

Just two long cents.  Cool topic.

Be safe!

:asian:


----------



## Tgace (Feb 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mandirigma _
> *So MA give us many benefits.  However, for example, playing rugby with the local club also gives you discipline, work ethic, physicality, and probably the ability and resolve to defend yourself (those guys are tough!).  The question, then, is what does being a warrior REALLY give us that we couldn't get elsewhere? *



Exactly! When you think of it, most team sports are battle simulations of a type arent they? Lacrosse is fairly big in my area and that was a warrior pastime among the Native Americans and a forerunner of Hockey. 

I believe one of the primary "warrior" traits is finding and using what is useful in everything. Steven Ambriose (sp?) the historian, stated that one of the advantages the American soldier had during WWII was good old fashioned farmboy experience. For example the Germans would leave brokendown vehicles by the roadside for follow-on maintainance crews to fix. Americans would fix theirs up on their own with whatever they had on hand and keep on moving (he attributes that to the American love of cars and farmboy experience with tractors and farm equipment). When American tanks got tangled up in the French hedgerows, an enlisted man came up with the idea of welding steel blades to the front of his tank to plow through them. Soon the whole US Army was doing it.  Its an example of translating seemingly unrelated experience into a combat advantage.


----------



## Tgace (Feb 9, 2004)

Very interesting statement about "warriorship".

http://www.usd.edu/~nin/essay6.htm


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 10, 2004)

"So if some of you should look deep into your heart as I have asked and decide that you dont belong here training, I will have no hard feelings."

This idea goes, not only for those who decide to leave training, but decide to choose different training as far as I am concerned.  Budhists talk about the 8 fold path, Christians talk about each persons "calling," and folk sayings say there is more than one way to skin a cat.... okay.

We can agree to disagree, as long as the winner is willing to drive the loser to the hospital when its done .  

Paul M.


----------



## mandirigma (Feb 10, 2004)

From tgace's link to Warriorship:  "I take this responsibility very seriously. I am training warriors, not running a daycare."

I agree.  One of my instructors has said to this effect:

"Trainees...will do exactly what is expected of them.  If little is expected, little will be accomplished.  Seldom are noble deeds done by men who are thought of, and think of themselves, as nothing more than cannon fodder.  Noble deeds are accomplished only by noble men.  Training is largely meaningless if it does not make the trainee aware of his mission, of his place in history, and of his own magnificence."

Robert Spencer in The Craft of the Warrior gives a good idea of some aspects of mentality that warriors can/should strive for.  He barely mentions martial arts, but the mentality is excellent.

:asian:


----------



## Pappy Geo (Feb 14, 2004)

One of the things that come out of this thread is that we would agree on that there are different stages or degrees of warriorship and for different times of our lives. Below is a from a thread I wrote on the WMAC forum a will back.

As you can see these friends of mine were acting warriors at one time, but now live there life as normal people. Are they still warriors? probably considered has-been warriors. Just another prospective to consider on this hard to define subject. Maybe some of us are warriors in reserve? 



Is your best friend a unsung hero-warrior? 
Do you really know your friends? 

Here is a partial list of buddies that I have a special bonding with that I hunt and fish with. A few of the many unsung heroes/warriors of the Vietnam area. 

Buddy number one, lives in Othello, eastern Washington, a draftee, was a Navy medic assigned to the Marines during Vietnam for a couple of tours, he saw much action in Vietnam and was shot and seriously wounded will rescuing a fallen Marine in a fire-fight in the jungle. We hunt and fish together on a regular basis 

Buddy number 2, lives in Yelm, WA, a draftee, was a Marine and spent several tours in the jungle, became addicted to being on the edge, had a difficult time adjusting to being a civilian and recently was diagnosed with Hepatitis C and nearly died before having a liver transplant 2 years ago, living on borrowed time he is an avid salmon fisherman and I consider him a fishing buddy. Does every thing on the edge! 

My main hunting partner for over 10 years, lives near Rochester, WA, spent 5 years in the jungle, covert as a VC to do atrocious things that were blamed on the VC (always against VC collaborators) to make the villages not want to cooperate with the VC. He was one of the first operators under the "Phoenix Program"a top secret Ops under the CIA. He retired as a Sgt. Major, went through open heart surgery last year and now is doing really great. A tough old bird! He is the one who almost had his fingers bitten off when knifing the throat of a VC. 

A lifetime friend, lives on Fox Island, WA, a draftee did his tour in a recon platoon carrying a shotgun, pulled many LPs (Listening posts) by yourself, separated from your squad by a kilometer m/l in the middle of the night in the jungle black as an ace of spades sorting through the jungle sounds when the hiss of the radio when checking in sounded like shout in the night. Spooky! We motor home and fish together on a regular basis. 

My Military stories are different as they were as a sailor in the Coast Guard (yes the Coast Guard went to Vietnam also) patrolling the coast and river mouths but not in the jungle, not the same kind of risk...., boarded junks, arrested smugglers- suspected VC, support fire on the villages.. rode out unbelievable storms in typhoon season. Deadly sea snakes with no known anti- venom serum ... picked up bodies, wreckage's...at sea for 6 to 8 weeks at a time...hell on wheels on R&R...a draftee also..... 

I am friends with and am surrounded by warriors! Regular guys in the everyday world, certainly not wannabes, maybe has-beens, and will only talk about their experiences with another vet who has been there. As a whole most were draftees--not by choice... 

I am telling you this as for food for thought, on how many warriors are really out there, who have been there, and if pressed into a life or death corner would be very dangerous. 

How about some of you? Does your relatives, friends have a story to tell?
_________________
Tito Geo


----------



## Rich Parsons (Feb 14, 2004)

Pappy Geo said:
			
		

> One of the things that come out of this thread is that we would agree on that there are different stages or degrees of warriorship and for different times of our lives. Below is a from a thread I wrote on the WMAC forum a will back.
> 
> As you can see these friends of mine were acting warriors at one time, but now live there life as normal people. Are they still warriors? probably considered has-been warriors. Just another prospective to consider on this hard to define subject. Maybe some of us are warriors in reserve?
> 
> ...




Thank You Pappy Geo I liked your post.  :asian:  It makes people think about those that were in the recognized wars. Think back to your friends and family from the time period between Vietnam and ODS or the Gulf War in the early 90's. In the twenty years between there were many little unrecognized wars and conflicts, that our men and women did their duty to this Country U.S.A. They may not be able to talk about it, yet if they are having trouble, ask thme if they need to talk anyways. I know, I have friends from this time period who I have listened too, from time to time, just to let them talk and or vent or express their feelings.


With Respect
 :asian:


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 14, 2004)

> The best any of us can do is to try and live life like a warrior, I could care less what anybody else thinks of or calls me....and that covers a lot more than training in any martial art



I couldn't agree more 




> I know, I have friends from this time period who I have listened too, from time to time, just to let them talk and or vent or express their feelings.



 How true. Sometime they just need to expres themsleves . No comment is needed in return, just an ear to talk to  and a mouth that dose not repeat what the ear hears.

Pappy thank for the story and your list of friends it opens the mind to what is out there


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 14, 2004)

Pappy Geo, 

I would hesitate to call these types 'has beens' because that would imply that they have forgotten the warrior traditions.  It seems that you as a group are keeping the most important aspects alive, loyalty and espirit de corps...

In the Marines we would say that there are no 'ex marines' only former.  I think that would hold true here too.

Paul M


----------



## Pappy Geo (Feb 14, 2004)

I would accept former warrior, sure sounds better than a has-been!


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 14, 2004)

"Here's to us, and those like us...Damn few left"
(Gardens of Stone)

Amen Brother

Paul M


----------



## DoxN4cer (Feb 18, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> "Here's to us, and those like us...Damn few left"
> (Gardens of Stone)
> 
> Amen Brother
> ...



... and to our fallen brothers in "the Gan", Iraq and elsewhere.

TK


----------



## Pappy Geo (Feb 19, 2004)

So the consensus seems to be that there are different stages of being a warrior.

1. Wannabe warriors

2. Former warriors

3. Warriors in reserve

4. Trained warriors but not experienced

5. Experienced warriors

What about warriors in the busines world? Like J. Paul getty, Howard Hughes, Donald Trump, just to name a few. If being a warrior is a state of mind would they not be classified as warriors?

Food for thought............


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 19, 2004)

I would say yes, it could be seen that way.  Especially when you look at the 80's business schools of Japan where the motto was "business is war" and books like The Book of Five Rings and Sun Tzu's Art of War were required reading.

Also yes, if you consider the number of military officers who get snatched up by businesses when these guys retire/get out.  

Paul M.


----------

