# Hwa Rang Do scam?



## Pyros (Jan 5, 2003)

I was browsing through the website http://www.hwarangdo.com/ and found this: http://www.hwarangdo.com/longdistance.htm

Now if we don't dwell into how a long distance program would actually work, I would like to draw you attention to this stuff on the page:

"One of the basic requirements of becoming a practitioner of Hwa Rang Do® and Tae Soo Do® is that the individual must decide to practice only Hwa Rang Do® and Tae Soo Do®. This true for all of our local dojang practitioners and for our long distance practitioners. If you were searching for techniques and had plans to study Hwa Rang Do® to make it a part of your repertoire of multiple styles, we are sorry but we will not be able to help you. Our identity is very important to us and we do not intend to lose its integrity. However, the techniques, concepts, and philosophies of Hwa Rang Do® are extremely comprehensive so you do not need to study multiple arts in the first place."

I don't know about you but I smell fish here...


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2003)

See also this thread.


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## Pyros (Jan 6, 2003)

Very interesting reading. Too bad some arts get into these kind of situations. Too bad indeed.


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## Hwarang (Jan 14, 2003)

Pyros: Fish? - must be herring 

Is it the part about "If you were searching for techniques and had plans to study Hwa Rang Do to make it a part of your repertoire of multiple styles, we are sorry but we will not be able to help you" or the part about "extremely comprehensive" you don't like?

"Extremely comprehensive" means that Hwarang Do has full instruction in kicking, punching, joint locking, throwing, groundfighting, pressurepoints, weapons, breathing techniques, meditation, acupuncture, herbal medicine etc etc...
That does not mean that Hwarang Do is the end all of MA. Some people like specialized, some people like comprehensive, great something for everybody.

Angus in the other thread: "You are supposed to give up and forsake all prior martial art knowledge to study Hwarang do" - This is not true. One of my students is going to a Krav Maga seminar this weekend, I train and have trained with people from Taekwondo, Ashihara, Aikijutsu and many other)...

"if you become an instructor you are not allowed to teach any other martial art"

That is true, and I am not embarrased in any way that Hwarang Do is a traditional style that demands commitment. As the quote in the first post says, if you're just looking for another style to add to your collection, please train somewhere else. There are hundreds and hundreds of styles to choose from.
What happens if someone starts training Hwarang Do and then discovers that is's not the right style after all? Then the person stops training Hwarang Do and trains something else.

"or allow it to be taught in your dojang " 
sorry, that is also not true. I know of serveral Hwarang Do schools who are sharing rooms with other styles. Our previous dojang (school) was shared by 3 clubs (Taekwondo, Ving Tsun and Hwarang Do)...

arnisador: I saw you mentioned a "somewhat cultish behaviour" in the other thread, could you specify what you mean???


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## Pyros (Jan 14, 2003)

I have nothing against calling your art "extremely comprehensive". I do believe that if an organization tells it's students that they *must not* study other arts, or risk _getting kicked out_ of the organization, there's something seriously wrong about it. Usually it either means the organization is lying about it's stuff and doesn't want it's students to wander around perhaps stumbling on the truth accidentally, or if that's not the case, then we are probably looking at a cult organization. Just my opinion, and I started this thread because I wanted to know if I was alone with this opinion.


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## Hwarang (Jan 14, 2003)

"I do believe that if an organization tells it's students that they must not study other arts, or risk getting kicked out of the organization, there's something seriously wrong about it."

Well, as I said in the other post that is not the case in Hwarang Do. Otherwise I'll have to kick out my student on Monday


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## arnisador (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hwarang _
> *arnisador: I saw you mentioned a "somewhat cultish behaviour" in the other thread, could you specify what you mean??? *



Pretty much what has been described--the insular nature of the art and the questionable history provided by the founder.

I have no direct experience with the art, however, and your perspective is enlightening.


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## Hwarang (Jan 15, 2003)

>> Pretty much what has been described--the insular nature of the art and the questionable history provided by the founder.<<

I don't have my dictionary handy, but I'm guessing "insular" means the same as Pyros said   Open Seminars, ~30 different videos from 2 different companies sounds very closed?

>>questionable history<<
What do you find questionable about the history?

I think it's well explained for instance here on Hwarangdo.com: http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm
In the 3 part interview in Black Belt Magazine from 2000: 
http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt9-00.htm (links to the other two)
or the Dojang Magazine article from 1995: http://www.hwarangdo.com/dojang1.htm

Sorry for beeing lazy and just posting the links, it's just that I'm a little tired of going over the same basic things again and again. If you could read at least one of the texts we can get a little further. But I'll reply to any question - eventhough I think history and technical stuff is a lot more interesting than politics.


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## arnisador (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hwarang _
> *What do you find questionable about the history?
> *



I've read the info. in the first link you cited and also in the three volume series from Ohara Pub. and in Mr. Echanis' military series of books. I've also read articles and a web site critical of that history, and based on what I've read and general knowledge I doubt the "mountain training in an ancient art" story. I believe Joo Bang Lee largely developed the system from a Hapkido base.

However, I am neither sufficiently knowledgeable in this area to argue the matter with you, nor is it particularly salient to me. I appreciate your sharing info. on the art; it has already moved my opinion towards viewing the art as more open to new ideas than I had thought it to be. I hope you'll keep commenting on it!


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## Hwarang (Jan 16, 2003)

"I've also read articles and a web site critical of that history "

Great, straight to politics 

"and based on what I've read and general knowledge I doubt the "mountain training in an ancient art" story. "

No problem. Personally I find nothing strange about a monk training martial arts in the mountains in Korea during the 1940-50ies. You know that a lot of the Buddhist temples actually are in the mountains, and that monks in quite a few Korean temples still practices (different types of) martial arts?

"I believe Joo Bang Lee largely developed the system from a Hapkido base."

<Flashback to long discussions on Korean styles mailing lists>
This is a long story that probably should be in a separate thread. But Joo Bang Lee opened his first school in 1960, the first Hapkido school opened in 1961. So how is Hwarang Do based on Hapkido then? 
I think the main problem is that most people think that Hapkido "back in the old days" was ONE original style. It never was, people used the name for many different (also technically different) styles from the start. 
Once you realize this you can start to look for lineages (some styles have forms/some don't, some use the yu,won,hwa concepts/some don't, some do 10 spinkicks in a row/some don't, some do breathing/mediatation in-and-out in equal number of seconds ("5 seconds in-5 seconds out")/some do unequal number of seconds). 
Different lineages, different concepts, different arts.

Some time (if you're interested in the history), if you read my first link again (http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm) or the BB articles with this in mind, you might notice a lot more details. A lot of it has never been written in English (or Korean) before.

"I hope you'll keep commenting on it!"
Thanks, I'll be back. Lot's of good discussions and a great atmosphere!


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## MartialArtist (Feb 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Pyros _
> *I was browsing through the website http://www.hwarangdo.com/ and found this: http://www.hwarangdo.com/longdistance.htm
> 
> Now if we don't dwell into how a long distance program would actually work, I would like to draw you attention to this stuff on the page:
> ...


All it means is that you need dedication.  If you're merely looking for it to add to your collection and just get a couple of techniques from it after training a couple of months, then go some place else is what they're trying to say.


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## Shinzu (Mar 1, 2003)

asking that a student dedicates themselves to "your" art is fine, but when a student is restricted to "your" art only there is a problem.  most people who study different arts are not "style hopping", they are just trying to develop themselves for the better.  i would never put that kind of pressure on any student.  if that were the rule i would not be training in TSD today.


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