# Home schoolers denied asylum...why?



## billc (May 17, 2013)

Well, the democrat war on education continues, but this time they take it to an international level...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/05/16/German-Homeschooling-Family-Loses-To-Obama-Administration-Denied-Asylum




> *The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals has upheld the Obama  administration&#8217;s denial of asylum granted to the Romeike family, who  fled Germany over its strict anti-homeschooling laws.
> *
> 
> In a press release  Tuesday, Michael Farris, founder and chairman of the Home School Legal  Defense Association (HSLDA), said, &#8220;We believe the Sixth Circuit is  wrong and we will appeal their decision. America has room for this  family and we will do everything we can to help them.&#8221;
> ...



Yes, we will let anyone come across our border and stay illegally...and yet this family, who have gone through a legal process can't catch a break...why, because they want to educate their own children.  Since the government/democrat party believes that your children aren't really your children, they have no sympathy for this family.   If the German state wants to take these children away from their family because they want to force them into government indoctrination centers...errr...schools, well, they had best just suck it up and go along with the program...They will find no sympathy from obama and his union allies...


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## granfire (May 17, 2013)

well, considering that the German system is pretty darn good, there are hardly any holes in coverage, kids of all academic levels are well supported, colleges are free....

being a jerk because you can't have your way is not a reason to be granted asylum. 
And seriously, I think the majority of people ho are homeschooling have no business doing so, since many doing it largely to perpetuate an agenda, not education.


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## Takai (May 17, 2013)

granfire said:


> ...since many doing it largely to perpetuate an agenda, not education.



And the public school system doesn't?


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## K-man (May 17, 2013)

If they had applied to emigrate, that would have been a better option. The fact that they didn't raises questions of its own. The did not qualify for asylum, simple. Nothing to do with Obama. It should have been the same outcome regardless of administration.  :asian:


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## billc (May 17, 2013)

Hmmm...a government is going to take their children away from them if they don't send them to government schools...and the guy who illegally crosses the border to work at McDonalds gets to stay because obama won't deport him?


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## granfire (May 17, 2013)

Takai said:


> And the public school system doesn't?



No.

let me rephrase that:

The agenda for the (German) public school is to raise people who can function in society, hold a job and are somewhat educated on a broader spectrum and function in the political system. 
The curriculum includes:
(German) language
at least one foreign language, English most often, French second.
Math
Physics
Chemistry
Biology
History
Social Studies
Religion/ethics (shocking, right)
music and art
PE
(and recess)

the lesser academic branches offer subjects that are more trade oriented.


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## granfire (May 17, 2013)

billc said:


> Hmmm...a government is going to take their children away from them if they don't send them to government schools...and the guy who illegally crosses the border to work at McDonalds gets to stay because obama won't deport him?



Let me put it simple: The children will have to be educated and homeschooling is not an option. it is very similar in the US. You kids don't go to school you will be held accountable. of course, you can enroll them in a home school program. And not educate them and allow them to stay home. 

Oh...and become slackers and users, etc, everything that's wrong with society. 
I have seen well educated home schooled kids, yes. But I have encountered more who's parents should not be allowed to train a goldfish to breath under water.

And yeah. It's the German law. 
(and not knowing the family's background, I can tell by looking at the family portrait that they are weirdos, because hardly a family has more than two kids. Having six, I am sure they get the books for free and transport. If they asked for asylum because they were persecuted for speeding, would that qualify them? They broke the law. You break the laws in the US, you get in trouble)

But you have an agenda.


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## Takai (May 18, 2013)

granfire said:


> No.
> 
> let me rephrase that:
> 
> ...



Now the comment makes more sense to me. The clarification that you were referring to the "German" public school system makes more sense. I originally understood it as a generalization of all public schools. My mistake.


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## granfire (May 18, 2013)

Takai said:


> Now the comment makes more sense to me. The clarification that you were referring to the "German" public school system makes more sense. I originally understood it as a generalization of all public schools. My mistake.



That's why I clarified. 
Considering that the US system is led by elected people, you get such tings as 'put the bible back in school' as platforms with considerable support.

But since the OP referred to the terrible Germans who would not let these people putter around on their own...professions are highly regulated i Germany. You simply cannot hang out your shingle and proclaim to be this or that when you have not formal training in the matter. There is no 'substitute teacher' profession. If a teacher is out (they are not taking vacations during school times....) a teacher with a free period will fill in or if it's long term a qualified person will be hired.


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## Makalakumu (May 18, 2013)

Takai said:


> And the public school system doesn't?



"I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic upon which it stands
one nation, under God, indivisible
with Liberty and Justice for all."


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## Makalakumu (May 18, 2013)

granfire said:


> No.
> 
> let me rephrase that:
> 
> ...



The United States imported the German school system in the 1800s in order to try and create a national identity from a society of immigrants.  Prussian School is definitely government agenda driven.  It was created to be a tool of the state and it has produced some very interesting results, probably some things that would surprise partisans on both sides of the left/right paradigm.


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## granfire (May 18, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> The United States imported the German school system in the 1800s in order to try and create a national identity from a society of immigrants.  Prussian School is definitely government agenda driven.  It was created to be a tool of the state and it has produced some very interesting results, probably some things that would surprise partisans on both sides of the left/right paradigm.



yeah, well, we were not talking about the Prussian school system in the US.


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## Makalakumu (May 18, 2013)

granfire said:


> yeah, well, we were not talking about the Prussian school system in the US.



We're talking about the Prussian school system in Germany.  I don't think people know anything about this connection, nor do they know much about why this system came about in the first place.  I think all of this simply provides context for the questions posed here.  If people understand that the school system here is indoctrinating their children, they can understand that the same thing is happening in the place where their school system came from.  

Why would a German family try and prevent the government from taking their children to school?  Here's a little more history for you.






What if you believed that the state did not own your children?  What if you didn't want your children to be indoctrinated in the official propaganda of the state?  Why would President Obama not protect this family in the supposed land of the free?  

I honestly think it wouldn't matter who was in office.  The Prussian system is something that both parties support and it's something that underlies the cultural expectations of this country.  This is because of the shared connection in schooling between Germany and America.


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## granfire (May 18, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> We're talking about the Prussian school system in Germany.  I don't think people know anything about this connection, nor do they know much about why this system came about in the first place.  I think all of this simply provides context for the questions posed here.  If people understand that the school system here is indoctrinating their children, they can understand that the same thing is happening in the place where their school system came from.
> 
> Why would a German family try and prevent the government from taking their children to school?  Here's a little more history for you.
> 
> ...



Well, as somebody who actually graduated from the German school system....

No I won't watch those videos. If for nothing else than that I don't have the time to watch a five minute subway rid when it's supposed to be about education.

Yes, I know. It's like you telling the Scandinavians and Australians what their economy looks like. 
You don't know.

Obama has more important things to do than to hold a family's hands who - drum roll please - _broke the law in their country of origin_.
I am sure you guys blame Obama when the dog catcher runs over a dog with his truck as well. Cos, he's in office, after all. 

let me repeat: the law of the land states that children have to attend school. There are many options for different school models, many more than in the US. But home schooling is not one of them. If you want to change that, you become active in politics. You do not just break the law. 

it's like speeding, hit and run accidents, or whatever else. they are not having the kids taken away because they are weirdos, but because they are breaking the law. Last time I looked, breaking laws was a big no-no in the immigration process, which I have also gone through. 
If the folks want to indoctrinate their kids they have enough time to do that after school, since classes last seldom past noon. 

BTW, I don't think there is a constitutional right in the US to allow homeschooling. It is up tot the states to allow it and under what circumstances. 

I am curious: what makes these lawbreakers more endearing to you than people who come here to perform back breaking, dirty work for pennies, in order to feed their families?


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## Makalakumu (May 18, 2013)

granfire said:


> Well, as somebody who actually graduated from the German school system....
> 
> No I won't watch those videos. If for nothing else than that I don't have the time to watch a five minute subway rid when it's supposed to be about education.
> 
> ...



Nothing actually. I'm all for immigration. I think we should remove barriers actually. The country would be better for it.

I think you're missing a good history lesson in schooling. This is important to recognize, IMO, because it will tell you why schooling needs to change in the future, but that's besides the point. 

The deeper point in this thread is about who controls the children. Do the parents? Does the State? Do the children have any rights at all? Do they own themselves? Laws abound in all kinds of countries that answer this question from a legal stand point, but which answer is ethically sound? Which answer do you think is right?

Gran, what if the president said, "we support families making decisions for their children's best interests in America and will allow this family to remain. We believe in personal Liberty in America and I think this sends a message to the rest of the world. Families are more important than government ideologies and I sincerely believe that the world would be a better place if we respected this more."


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## billc (May 18, 2013)

And again...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/18/nondeportation-rate-drops-992-percent/



> The Homeland Security Department has granted legal status to 99.2 percent of all illegal immigrants who have applied under President Obamas new non-deportation policy for young adults, according to the latest numbers released Friday.



And yet they want to deport this family...who will be persecuted by the German government.  They should have come here for vacation and just not left...becoming illegal aliens...then they could have just stayed...


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## granfire (May 18, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Nothing actually. I'm all for immigration. I think we should remove barriers actually. The country would be better for it.
> 
> I think you're missing a good history lesson in schooling. This is important to recognize, IMO, because it will tell you why schooling needs to change in the future, but that's besides the point.
> 
> ...



yeah, well, he has to fix the US system first because he gets to fix the German system, which is not broken. 
There are many things in education that need to be changed, since we have now a greater understanding how the adolescent mind works (Finland is actually leading there), but no, home schooling isn't the answer.

The deal is, it's not Obama's business, regardless. He has a job to do and approving immigration applicants is simply not it.


In the end, there is a protocol to observe when you want to immigrate to the US. Playing the cry-baby card isn't it. 

Please reserve your outcry over people being rejected and deported to countries of origin where they face actual threats. Like women who do not wish to be circumcised and passed off like a cheap rug or a donkey. Or face prison charges or being stoned. 


BTW, you will find it conveniently left out _why_ the family wants to home school. Just because is not a valid reason.

(BTW, fun part about this homeschooling...even though you disagree with the school system, you still can impose on it to demand the kid be allowed in the fun part of school, like band and such programs...)


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## Makalakumu (May 18, 2013)

So, in other words, you think it appropriate for a government to take away children for simply not wanting to attend government approved school?

There are a lot of good things that can be said about the German school system, but it might not be for everyone. Why do they have to be so heavy handed toward homeschoolers. What is the big deal?


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## granfire (May 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> So, in other words, you think it appropriate for a government to take away children for simply not wanting to attend government approved school?
> 
> There are a lot of good things that can be said about the German school system, but it might not be for everyone. Why do they have to be so heavy handed toward homeschoolers. What is the big deal?



I see you are not following:
You cannot assume an occupation for which you are not qualified: To teach you must have a teaching degree for starters. 
Second, there is no reason to not use the public school system. It does indeed cover everybody. And you have programs for gifted children that are not under the knife at every turn, unlike here in the US.

There is no reason to home school. It is that simple. Just because you feel like it is not a valid reason. 
The curriculum is academic. Even notorious subjects like history are rather neutral (with exception of the period between 1930 and 1945 of course). The people do not want home schooling. The odd nutter here or there, that's it. 

Somewhere the program works, while Germany is not leader in the academic field, they are in the top. I think even beating the US out by a few spots. The country is in the top of export nations still, German trained people are in demand. 

However. The Issue is not whether or not Germany allows home schooling. 
The issue is that Obama didn't intervene and let them stay.

The issue is that the family does not follow protocol. Neither the laws of the country they are from, nor the country they wish to live in.
They are playing the victim card when they brought ALL of it on themselves. 

If you do not like the laws, you change them. Not break them. 
and then claim victimhood. 
They are not being persecuted for homeschooling, but for breaking truancy laws. And frankly, the US is more stupid about it than Germany ever was. I get a nasty-gram when the kid was a minute late 8 times in a school year. Let me tell you, at starting times of 7AM, that is easily accomplished! To get German authorities on your case the kids have not seen the inside of a school building in months! 

The long and the short of it is, german parents ahve options other than home schooling to fill the needs. That is why it is not available. 

And when you don't like what a country has to offer, you leave. 
but not this way. Have some integrity. 
But I am guessing they didn't qualify otherwise to come to the US 'just because'. 

But I am sure it's Obama's fault that the German school system is the way it is.....


ETA:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...asylum-bid_n_3283575.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

yeah, like I said, nutters. Claiming religious persecution. Gimme a break!
The kids are in school 5 hours a day, that gives them 19 to indoctrinate them...


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## Makalakumu (May 19, 2013)

So, how many hours a day is it appropriate for the State to demand your children?


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## Touch Of Death (May 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> So, how many hours a day is it appropriate for the State to demand your children?


As many as the State of Germany wants.


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## Makalakumu (May 19, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> As many as the State of Germany wants.



And the State of Germany is correct in it's demands upon the family?


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## K-man (May 19, 2013)

Perhaps before people get in too deep we should look at worldwide homeschooling. Germany is not alone in restricting homeschooling. But, they could have moved next door to Austria, or to Denmark. Why move half way around the world to the US?



> Homeschooling is legal in many countries. Countries with the most prevalent home education movements include Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Some countries have highly regulated home education programs as an extension of the compulsory school system; others, such as Germany, have outlawed it entirely. Brazil has a law project in process. In other countries, while not restricted by law, homeschooling is not socially acceptable or considered undesirable and is virtually non-existent.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_status_and_statistics


This link details homeschooling legality and availability worldwide. 

As has been suggested, if these people felt so deeply about homeschooling perhaps they should have sought to legally emigrate to one of countries that allow it. The question arises, why wouldn't they do that? Unpaid fines? Religeous fundamentalists? There is possibly more to this story than we know.  :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (May 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> And the State of Germany is correct in it's demands upon the family?


The German people seem to think so, or else they wouldn't be placing those demands.


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## granfire (May 19, 2013)

K-man said:


> Perhaps before people get in too deep we should look at worldwide homeschooling. Germany is not alone in restricting homeschooling. But, they could have moved next door to Austria, or to Denmark. Why move half way around the world to the US?
> 
> 
> This link details homeschooling legality and availability worldwide.
> ...



They are 'Evangelical Christians' and claim they are being singled out because of that according to the Huffington Post. Considering what all crawls around in Germany, the idea is a joke. 

But I am tempted to write a letter to Obama, begging him to allow those nutters to stay. Heaven knows, Germany does nt need them. And there are enough of their kind in Tennessee...thy blend right in. 

I have no real sympathy for their kind, being difficult with every resource at their fingertips. At one time we hailed public schools as progress, since it opened venues past the slate tablet by the fire place as learning venue!


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## Makalakumu (May 19, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> The German people seem to think so, or else they wouldn't be placing those demands.



The Prussian school system is a tool for social management.  It was forced upon the people by the elite.  It was designed to create a better military, manage the empire, and create workers in the industrial revolution.

When this form of schooling was instituted, no one voted for it.


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## TimoS (May 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> When this form of schooling was instituted, no one voted for it.


Is there _any_ schooling forms that have been created by vote?


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## granfire (May 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> The Prussian school system is a tool for social management.  It was forced upon the people by the elite.  It was designed to create a better military, manage the empire, and create workers in the industrial revolution.
> 
> When this form of schooling was instituted, no one voted for it.



workers in the industrial revolution were created by sex, not education. And the military did not benefit from education either until recently. Canon fodder does not need to be smart.

Yes, it's social management. Smarter people function better in a democratic society. The elite prefers the common people to be dumber than a sack of rocks. makes them more easily manageable, just look at the US system, including home schooling. 

BTW, schooling in the US is voted on, every time you have board of education up for election. Maybe this is why it sucks so bad and homeschooling has to be an option?



In any case, knowing what I do about fundamentalist 'Christians' I can guess as to what they object to in the system. Religion isn't it, not primarily, because you can opt out, although I can see where 'ethics' can put them in a tail spin, as it is a more philosophical approach to mankind. I remember the Greek philosophers as subject...really not in the Christian spirit.
Of course there would be a problem with gender equality, and of course sex-ed and evolution is a no-go - and fortunately non-negotiable.


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## Makalakumu (May 22, 2013)

What value did you find in the German education system? Are you a German citizen and immigrated to America, or were you an outsider looking in? 

Please pardon my personal questions, I'm curious about your experience with their system.


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

At least one party is trying to help these people...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/05/30/GOP-Senators-Drafting-Letter-To-Holder-To-Urge-Asylum-For-German-Homeschooling-Family




> [h=2]In an interview with Breitbart News, William Estrada, Director of  Federal Relations of the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA),  said that Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) has taken the lead in the Senate to  draft a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder, urging him to allow the  Romeike family asylum in the United States.
> [/h] Estrada said that Rubio has joined with Sens. Roy Blunt (R-MO) and  Tim Scott (R-SC) to move ahead with a letter that will complement one  that has already been sent to Holder from members of the House.  Led by Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-IN), a coalition of 27 congressmen have  signed a letter urging the Department of Justice to rescind an order to  deport the Romeikes.


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## granfire (May 31, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Are you a German citizen and immigrated to America,[...]
> 
> Please pardon my personal questions, I'm curious about your experience with their system.



yes

So, yes, I know, nobody gives a frogs behind what your religion is, you can opt out of the class in school. But you do not get to keep the kids home and teach them creationism as 'science' You can do that on your own time, and German schools leave you with enough of that.


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## granfire (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> At least one party is trying to help these people...
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/05/30/GOP-Senators-Drafting-Letter-To-Holder-To-Urge-Asylum-For-German-Homeschooling-Family



Rubio...attention ho. Next...


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

Yeah, there is no reason to doubt the efficiency of the German school system...it has always worked out so well...











These kids learned all about evolution in their science classes...from the best educated Teachers the German state could provide...


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## TimoS (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> These kids learned all about evolution in their science classes...



Where as kids like this learned all about creation "science", probably at home. Worked out so well, don't you think?


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

Would you really like to compare the scale of the damage created by home schoolers vs. those created by government controlled education...say in Germany, Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, ...really...?  Any comparison at all?


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## TimoS (May 31, 2013)

Oh yes, the reason for all those _must_ be the government controlled education, nothing else could explain that. Everywhere where the education is controlled by the government, evil things happen.


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

If it happened in the past...it can happen again...especially if there is no way for the average person to opt out.  Your education system may be fine today, and it may be fine tomorrow, but what about 20 years from now...who will be in control of it then?  It is better if education is decentralized as much as possible.  That way mistakes of any kind only affect certain areas, and aren't mainlined into the entire education population...

And yes, Russia, Germany, and China...the big three...the bad guys were in charge of the education system...not to mention the smaller bad guys in Vietnam, Cambodia and any number of socialist paradises...


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> Yeah, there is no reason to doubt the efficiency of the German school system...it has always worked out so well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's dirty pool Bill. Certainly Hitler introduced compulsory school education to get to the kids but that is not the case is other countries that it could be argued only want to ensure that ALL children have access to education. You quote three communist countries and one ex-communist country to back your argument. Why didn't you pick a country like Sweden? In fact, in countries like China, Vietnam and Cuba there is such rural poverty that without compulsory school education it is very likely the kids would be kept home to work. Russia was a poor choice Bill as homeschooling is allowed there  .

There are a lot of countries that allow home schooling which have examinations to ensure that the children are properly educated. Is there a reason these people wanted to go to America?  :asian:


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

Keep in mind, the killers in 1939 Germany didn't turn into killers in 1939...they started in the German education system...


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> Keep in mind, the killers in 1939 Germany didn't turn into killers in 1939...they started in the German education system...


Bill, that is an obtuse statement.  Would you care to elaborate for us poor simpletons who had to endure a school education?


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## Touch Of Death (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> Keep in mind, the killers in 1939 Germany didn't turn into killers in 1939...they started in the German education system...


Oh for God's sake. There is nothing wrong with children learning party line. How can they later seek to change the system if they don't even know what it is?


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

People often wonder why the German state was able to do what it did...it indoctrinated the youth to their beliefs.  It did this through the education system which the government controlled.  



> Why didn't you pick a country like Sweden?



I did point out this...



> Your education system may be fine today, and it may be fine tomorrow,  but what about 20 years from now...who will be in control of it then?


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

> Oh for God's sake. There is nothing wrong with children learning party  line. How can they later seek to change the system if they don't even  know what it is?



Really?  It seems to me that it took a lot of Sherman Tanks, and aerial bombardment to "change" the German System...since they didn't seem to be planning on changing it themselves soon enough to save a whole bunch of people...


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

I don't believe I mentioned Hitler once...just the German school system...so...deal with it...to whom it may concern...


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> Really?  It seems to me that it took a lot of Sherman Tanks, and aerial bombardment to "change" the German System...since they didn't seem to be planning on changing it themselves soon enough to save a whole bunch of people...


I think that is a bit delusional Bill, but you didn't answer my question. Prior to 1938 Germany had home schooling. Does that mean that home schooling caused all of Germany's problems? If you want to be pedantic there are very few criminals, dictators or other bad people who didn't begin their careers with a normal school education. By the same token, there would be very few highly esteemed members of the community that didn't start the same way. 

But back to my question. What is the relevance of this statement?



> Keep in mind, the killers in 1939 Germany didn't turn into killers in 1939...they started in the German education system...


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> I don't believe I mentioned Hitler once...just the German school system...so...deal with it...to whom it may concern...


But you posted pictures of Hitler Youth.   Is there a link or are you suggesting it was the Hitler Youth who were responsible for WW2?  :asian:


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

Actually, I posted pictures of German school children.  The guys in charge of the German state are the ones responsible for WW2...and they controlled the German education system.   Are you the A. who left the private note...if not the last post wasn't for you but for the other guy.


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> Actually, I posted pictures of German school children.  The guys in charge of the German state are the ones responsible for WW2...and they controlled the German education system.   Are you the A. who left the private note...if not the last post wasn't for you but for the other guy.


Mate! I'm happy to debate lots of things with you. We don't always agree but if ever I feel the need to send you a private note, rest assured, it will have my name on it. :asian:


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

The education system, when centralized give too much control over a countries children to a small group of people.  The people of Germany were conditioned to not question the state, and they were conditioned through the education system.  Are you telling me that German school children in the 1930's were all the product of homeschooling?  Look at any totalitarian system...education is used to indoctrinate the youth...from North Korea, to any of the tin pot dictators around the world...that is what can happen when the education system is idolized by it's people and allowed to take children away from their family because they want their children educated differently than the state mandates.


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

Yeah, I didn't think it was you, but I don't know your real name so I was just checking.  I think I know who it was but I didn't want to P.M him back without knowing for sure...:angel:


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> The education system, when centralized give too much control over a countries children to a small group of people.  The people of Germany were conditioned to not question the state, and they were conditioned through the education system.  Are you telling me that German school children in the 1930's were all the product of homeschooling?  Look at any totalitarian system...education is used to indoctrinate the youth...from North Korea, to any of the tin pot dictators around the world...that is what can happen when the education system is idolized by it's people and allowed to take children away from their family because they want their children educated differently than the state mandates.


Bill, in all countries most kids go to school.  There are exceptions such as some very poor nations and girls miss out in some Muslim countries. Even allowing for home schooling at least 99% of children attend school. Within the school system in many countries there are public schools and their are private schools and in the main they deliver a comparable level of education. If you don't like the state supplied education you can elect to send your children to a school that may cater better to your beliefs. Except when there are isolated areas without schools, why is there even the need for home schooling.  :asian:


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

I actually don't disagree with you K-man, I am just responding to the opinion that because German schools at this time are said to be very good, there is no reason to home school.   And again, when education is centralized, it puts a lot of power in the hands of a few people...and if those people are evil...they will use the centralized education system for evil purposes.  

Why is there a need to home school?  Because some parents don't like what their kids are being taught in the public schools and perhaps, can't afford a private school.  The problem I have is when the state mandates that you can't home school, and if you try, the state will take your kids away from you.  Barring outright physical abuse, at what point is it okay for the state to just take kids from their parents because they disagree with the educational choice of the parents?


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## grumpywolfman (May 31, 2013)

granfire said:


> yes
> 
> So, yes, I know, nobody gives a frogs behind what your religion is, you can opt out of the class in school. But you do not get to keep the kids home and teach them creationism as 'science' You can do that on your own time, and German schools leave you with enough of that.



Sorry gran, I don't want to create bad feelings by insulting your religious views, but 'evolutionism' isn't science. There is no evidence of macro-evolution. Darwins Theory is actually an hypothesis that falls quite beyond the pale of the scientific method (observation, experimentation, and verification). It's just that most folks want to be thought of as "educated," and have been misled to believe that "all educated people believe in evolution." I think most people don't seek the truth - but rather seek what fits their personal desires, much like the people who indoctrinated them in the first place. 

*"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless,"* ~ Professor Louis Bouroune

*"One is forced to conclude that many scientists and technologists pay lip-service to Darwinian theory only because it supposedly excludes a Creator."* ~ Dr. Michael Walker

*"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact."* ~ Dr. T.N. Tahmisian


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> I actually don't disagree with you K-man, I am just responding to the opinion that because German schools at this time are said to be very good, there is no reason to home school.   And again, when education is centralized, it puts a lot of power in the hands of a few people...and if those people are evil...they will use the centralized education system for evil purposes.
> 
> Why is there a need to home school?  Because some parents don't like what their kids are being taught in the public schools and perhaps, can't afford a private school.  The problem I have is when the state mandates that you can't home school, and if you try, the state will take your kids away from you.  Barring outright physical abuse, at what point is it okay for the state to just take kids from their parents because they disagree with the educational choice of the parents?


And, in the main I agree with you, perhaps not to the same extreme  . <this could become a love in>
However, I would like to make two points. Firstly there should be a mandatory requirement of testing to ensure the home schooling provided does not disadvantage the child. And, secondly, what made these people choose to illegally move to the US when the could have moved next door to Austria?  :asian:


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Sorry gran, I don't want to create bad feelings by insulting your religious views, but 'evolutionism' isn't science. There is no evidence of macro-evolution. Darwin&#8217;s Theory is actually an hypothesis that falls quite beyond the pale of the scientific method (observation, experimentation, and verification). It's just that most folks want to be thought of as "educated," and have been misled to believe that "all educated people believe in evolution." I think most people don't seek the truth - but rather seek what fits their personal desires, much like the people who indoctrinated them in the first place.
> 
> *"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless,"* ~ Professor Louis Bouroune
> 
> ...


And perhaps a lot of people ignore science because they don't like the truth.   :asian:


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

> And perhaps a lot of people ignore science because they don't like the truth.



As do those who ignore religion because they also do not like the truth...:angel:


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## granfire (May 31, 2013)

K-man said:


> That's dirty pool Bill. Certainly Hitler introduced compulsory school education to get to the kids but that is not the case is other countries that it could be argued only want to ensure that ALL children have access to education. You quote three communist countries and one ex-communist country to back your argument. Why didn't you pick a country like Sweden? In fact, in countries like China, Vietnam and Cuba there is such rural poverty that without compulsory school education it is very likely the kids would be kept home to work. Russia was a poor choice Bill as homeschooling is allowed there  .
> 
> There are a lot of countries that allow home schooling which have examinations to ensure that the children are properly educated. Is there a reason these people wanted to go to America?  :asian:



It's ok, is the US public school system at work


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## arnisador (May 31, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Sorry gran, I don't want to create bad feelings by insulting your religious views, but 'evolutionism' isn't science. There is no evidence of macro-evolution. Darwins Theory is actually an hypothesis that falls quite beyond the pale of the scientific method



Well, that's 100% false.



> *"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless,"* ~ Professor Louis Bouroune



"*Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution*." --Theodosius Dobzhansky



> *"One is forced to conclude that many scientists and technologists pay lip-service to Darwinian theory only because it supposedly excludes a Creator."* ~ Dr. Michael Walker



Certainly, the religious endorse creationism only because it fits their mythology.



> *"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact."* ~ Dr. T.N. Tahmisian



Conspiracy theory.


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## arnisador (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> As do those who ignore religion because they also do not like the truth...:angel:



Well, science, does tend to give you fewer distinct truths per question. Science: Gravity formed the earth into its present shape. Religion: Here's 4000 different answers...


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

billc said:


> As do those who ignore religion because they also do not like the truth...:angel:


Mmm! On the balance of probability do we accept conventional science that provides contemporary explanations of the world we live in or do we try to make the physical facts fit a story made up by a relatively ignorant society from thousands of years ago. Time moves on, knowledge advances.

If there is but one small piece of hard evidence of the existence of 'God', please feel free to post it here. Otherwise we are required to accept it as faith.  :asian:


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## Makalakumu (May 31, 2013)

TimoS said:


> Oh yes, the reason for all those _must_ be the government controlled education, nothing else could explain that. Everywhere where the education is controlled by the government, evil things happen.



This is unfortunately true in many places around the world and throughout history.  Sometimes, when governments control education they use it to indoctrinate the population with nationalism and perhaps a lot of other hateful things.  I would say that all State run systems indoctrinate students into the particular rules of their country.  This isn't always benign.


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## grumpywolfman (May 31, 2013)

K-man said:


> And perhaps a lot of people ignore science because they don't like the truth.



Minus your intent, I will agree with what you posted as a general statement. What can be proven as a fact, people may still disregard due to personal beliefs. But where I think we may disagree, is if evolution is indeed scientific fact that should be taught to the masses, or is it a belief system (a religion if you will)? There is no evidence of macro-evolution. So shouldn't 'evolutionism' be removed from public education? And furthermore, what about the current beliefs that same-sex relationships, and killing babies of inconvenience is part of the 'natural' behavior of humans? I don't agree with these beliefs, therefore I home school my children.


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## K-man (May 31, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Minus your intent, I will agree with what you posted as a general statement. What can be proven as a fact, people may still disregard due to personal beliefs. But where I think we may disagree, is if evolution is indeed scientific fact that should be taught to the masses, or is it a belief system (a religion if you will)? There is no evidence of macro-evolution. So shouldn't 'evolutionism' be removed from public education? And furthermore, what about the current beliefs that same-sex relationships, and killing babies of inconvenience is part of the 'natural' behavior of humans? I don't agree with these beliefs, therefore I home school my children.


I reserve my response to when I have more time. :asian:


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## grumpywolfman (May 31, 2013)

K-man said:


> I reserve my response to when I have more time. :asian:



I think you'll need more than an eternity of time to try and prove that evolutionism is true K-man. But for the time being, I'm still here to listen


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## granfire (May 31, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Sorry gran, I don't want to create bad feelings by insulting your religious views, but 'evolutionism' isn't science. There is no evidence of macro-evolution. Darwins Theory is actually an hypothesis that falls quite beyond the pale of the scientific method (observation, experimentation, and verification). It's just that most folks want to be thought of as "educated," and have been misled to believe that "all educated people believe in evolution." I think most people don't seek the truth - but rather seek what fits their personal desires, much like the people who indoctrinated them in the first place.
> 
> *"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless,"* ~ Professor Louis Bouroune
> 
> ...



In your case, no, my feelings aren't hurt. 

But I am also not buying what you're selling.


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## Makalakumu (May 31, 2013)

Here is a little history to consider regarding Germany's anti-homeschooling laws.




> One of Hitler and his buddies' first acts on taking office was to establish the Reich Ministry of Education and give it control of all schools, including private schools. Nobody was to have the right to teach children from a different point of view than the State (with a capital "S"). There would be no right to teach from a distinctively religious point of view, especially. As Hitler said on May 1, 1937,
> 
> 
> "The Youth of today is ever the people of tomorrow. For this reason we have set before ourselves the task of inoculating our youth with the spirit of this community of the people at a very early age, at an age when human beings are still unperverted and therefore unspoiled. This Reich stands, and it is building itself up for the future, upon its youth. And this new Reich will give its youth to no one, but will itself take youth and give to youth its own education and its own upbringing."



Do those of you who support what is happening to this German family understand that you are basically echoing the same sentiment that Adolf Hitler stated in 1938?  Do you realize that you are backing Nazi-era legislation?

http://christiannews.net/2013/05/15...oling-family-sides-with-obama-administration/



> As previously reported, Uwe and Hannelore Romeike fled to the United States in 2008 after German authorities demanded that they stop homeschooling their six children. Homeschooling was made illegal in the country in 1938 under the dictatorship of Adolph Hitler, and the law has never been repealed, but rather strengthened. In 2007, the German Supreme Court ruled that the country&#8217;s mandate that children be sent to public school is necessary to &#8220;counteract the development of religious and philosophically motivated parallel societies.&#8221;


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## grumpywolfman (May 31, 2013)

granfire said:


> In your case, no, my feelings aren't hurt.
> 
> But I am also not buying what you're selling.



Fair enough gran


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

You could look out your window...and see the world he created...that is some pretty impressive proof...


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

See...Makalakumu used the "h" word, not me...


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## billc (May 31, 2013)

Just for the record...any thread drift is fine by me...take it where you will...


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## arnisador (May 31, 2013)

Hitler also said "I'm hungry--let's eat dinner." I agree with that sentiment. 

Can I get a Godwin smiley, please?


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## Makalakumu (May 31, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Hitler also said "I'm hungry--let's eat dinner." I agree with that sentiment.
> 
> Can I get a Godwin smiley, please?



Can I get a "dodge an uncomfortable fact" smiley?


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## granfire (May 31, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Here is a little history to consider regarding Germany's anti-homeschooling laws.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It also avoids having to allow certain other schoolings to become mainstream - like keeping girls out of school, because, well, they are girls, and only need to marry and make children. 

Germany of today is very different than the Germany of 70-80 years ago. And please, do not forget: Without Germany of the 1930s, there would be no Interstate system! (or torch run for the Olympics) 

There are many nations now present in Germany, and many religions. And there are many more women wearing the head scarf than in their native Turkey....

Religion is private (although it is taught in school, and the state collects the faithful's contribution on payday) 

There is one way to write, one way to do math, and yes, the one accepted way to science. 

And school normally lets out around 1, no school Saturday/Sunday....enough time to spend most of the week in school. 

Alas, I am repeating myself. 

Christian news? Good lord! REALLY?! :lol:


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## Tgace (Jun 1, 2013)

Homeschooling or private schools are becoming the only means of keeping kids out of the brainwashing facilities public schools have become. Not everyone can afford private schools...especially when you still have to lay public school taxes no matter where you school your kids.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## granfire (Jun 1, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Homeschooling or private schools are becoming the only means of keeping kids out of the brainwashing facilities public schools have become. Not everyone can afford private schools...especially when you still have to lay public school taxes no matter where you school your kids.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



well, you are falling for the trap billie set. Just because something is a certain way here does not mean it is the same over yonder. It just does not work that way. 

But in all honesty, It's not the brain washing why private schools are so popular in the US...at least not here in the south. It's partially prejudice, and well, then there is the mater of academics. But it is a two edged sword, and I wonder if it did the system any good to allow the private schools in such a manner.


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## K-man (Jun 1, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Minus your intent, I will agree with what you posted as a general statement. What can be proven as a fact, people may still disregard due to personal beliefs. But where I think we may disagree, is if evolution is indeed scientific fact that should be taught to the masses, or is it a belief system (a religion if you will)? There is no evidence of macro-evolution. So shouldn't 'evolutionism' be removed from public education? And furthermore, what about the current beliefs that same-sex relationships, and killing babies of inconvenience is part of the 'natural' behavior of humans? I don't agree with these beliefs, therefore I home school my children.


OK, I'm back. There are several issues. Evolution is just one of them. Can I say first, back in my university days I was a secular student in a theological college. Believe me, we debated many an issue. I figured that if you were going to practise Christianity then you had to take a pretty fundamental position. If you were going to accept the Bible as the word of God, then you had to take it literally. I could not maintain that position. I'm sorry but the weight of scientific evidence is so far from literal Biblical truth that I find it scary that I even considered that it was anything other than stories to demonstrate a truth. 

Now you say there is no macro-evolution. I don't know how you arrive at that position. Because it is late and I am tired I am just going to post a quote ...



> The term "macroevolution" frequently arises within the context of the evolution/creation debate, usually used by creationists alleging a significant difference between the evolutionary changes observed in field and laboratory studies and the larger scale macroevolutionary changes that scientists believe to have taken thousands or millions of years to occur. They accept that evolutionary change is possible within what they call "kinds" ("microevolution"), but deny that one "kind" can evolve into another ("macroevolution").  Contrary to this belief among the anti-evolution movement proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level ("macroevolution", i.e. speciation in a specific case) has indeed been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature. In creation science, creationists accepted speciation as occurring within a "created kind" or "baramin", but objected to what they called "third level-macroevolution" of a new genus or higher rank in taxonomy. Generally, there is ambiguity as to where they draw a line on "species", "created kinds", etc. and what events and lineages fall within the rubric of microevolution or macroevolution. The claim that macroevolution does not occur, or is impossible, is not supported by the scientific community.
> Such claims are rejected by the scientific community on the basis of ample evidence that macroevolution is an active process both presently and in the past. The terms macroevolution and microevolution relate to the same processes operating at different scales, but creationist claims misuse the terms in a vaguely defined way which does not accurately reflect scientific usage, acknowledging well observed evolution as "microevolution" and denying that "macroevolution" takes place. Evolutionary theory (including macroevolutionary change) remains the dominant scientific paradigm for explaining the origins of Earth's biodiversity. Its occurrence is not disputed within the scientific community. While details of macroevolution are continuously studied by the scientific community, the overall theory behind macroevolution (i.e. common descent) has been overwhelmingly consistent with empirical data. Predictions of empirical data from the theory of common descent have been so consistent that biologists often refer to it as the "fact of evolution".
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution


Other issues that fly in the face of scientific knowledge are the age of the Earth, the creation story etc. I'm sorry, I'm over it and the older I get the more skeptical I have become. If people want to believe in God then believe in God but believe in God in a way that is realistic. If you are going to make God fit in a box made by primitive people that flles in the face of contemporary knowledge then I'm sorry, my belief is God diminishes further and further. 

Now, the post expands to include same sex relationships and abortion. Here I am old fashioned. Personally I find it hard to accept same sex relationships and abortion is something that I am not comfortable with.  But I also believe that people have the right to live their lives as they see fit. As long as what they do contributes to society and is not detrimental to society then it is up to the individual how he/she elects to live. I know a lot of people in same sex relationships and I respect their decision. I do not have intimate knowledge of abortion but I would imagine it must be an horrendous decision to make. But if a woman was to make that decision, I would not condemn her.

That's enough for one night, I'm going to have a flick through the other posts and head for bed! :asian:


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## Tgace (Jun 1, 2013)

granfire said:


> well, you are falling for the trap billie set. Just because something is a certain way here does not mean it is the same over yonder. It just does not work that way.
> 
> But in all honesty, It's not the brain washing why private schools are so popular in the US...at least not here in the south. It's partially prejudice, and well, then there is the mater of academics. But it is a two edged sword, and I wonder if it did the system any good to allow the private schools in such a manner.



And it seems to me that you subscribe to the belief that people should not be allowed to believe what they want to believe or think what they want to think and that its the governments/schools job to indoctrinate children with the beliefs you find acceptable.

"The System to allow....." telling.


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## granfire (Jun 1, 2013)

Tgace said:


> And it seems to me that you subscribe to the belief that people should not be allowed to believe what they want to believe or think what they want to think and that its the governments/schools job to indoctrinate children with the beliefs you find acceptable.
> 
> "The System to allow....." telling.
> 
> ...



they can believe what they want. But they can't learn what they want. 
Call it industry standard if you please. And as I said, the 'indoctrination' is a myth.


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## arnisador (Jun 1, 2013)

We homeschooled because the local schools sucked. We were in one of the three local homeschool groups. Two were religious and the one we were in was formed by Mormons who couldn't sign the other groups' doctrinal statements to be in their groups. It was secular in operation. We taught evolution. The vast majority of others were homeschooling to avoid their kids learning that issue and also to be exposed to the other kids' differently religious or irreligious attitudes.


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## Tgace (Jun 1, 2013)

granfire said:


> they can believe what they want. *But they can't learn what they want*.
> Call it industry standard if you please. And as I said, the 'indoctrination' is a myth.



The gvt always knows best and always decides in your best interest huh?

Disturbing that you truly believe there is a difference and that it's the governments role to force it....


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## granfire (Jun 1, 2013)

Tgace said:


> The gvt always knows best and always decides in your best interest huh?
> 
> Disturbing that you truly believe there is a difference and that it's the governments role to force it....



I suppose it's personal experience. Living in an area that wishes to force bible studies into schools etc, I do prefer the results of my German schooling. It is less wishy washy, and when you check the statistics, it produces greater results. 

I think it is more worrisome that so many of you fear 'indoctrination' by the government through schools. 
It clearly does not translate to other countries (since their political system is commonly not as broken as in the US) 

and the results of the schooling still produce a broad spectrum of diverse thinking people, from the right leaning to the left. 
And compared to the French system, Germany is a liberal haven. 

But then again there is no counterpart to Faux News either. Balanced information, novel concept, and yes, the government also controls a couple of TV/Radio organizations.
http://www.swr3.de/startpage/-/id=47310/14mpkol/index.html

Considering the schools do not have to spend the majority on standardized tests, they have time to teach _critical thinking_.


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## billc (Jun 1, 2013)

I would rather that home schoolers have the choice than mandate that they go to public schools.  The chicago public school system is giddy this week because they managed to get graduation rates up to 60%.  Yeah, that doesn't include those who graduate but recieved a grade inflated education just to get them throught the system.  Then, the ones who do go on to college end up taking remedial English, and math classes just to catch up to where they really need to be.

With the public school system failing so wonderfully at the job, I don't mind parents homeschooling.  The miseducation of some homeschoolers is nowhere near the tragedy that the miseducation of public school students is, considering they are damaging so many more students who can't escape through home schooling.

It would be nice if the government schools actually met the 





> "Call it industry standard if you please.


 before they made attendance mandatory...it would save more kids.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 1, 2013)

granfire said:


> I suppose it's personal experience. Living in an area that wishes to force bible studies into schools etc, I do prefer the results of my German schooling. It is less wishy washy, and when you check the statistics, it produces greater results.
> 
> I think it is more worrisome that so many of you fear 'indoctrination' by the government through schools.
> It clearly does not translate to other countries (since their political system is commonly not as broken as in the US)
> ...



Germany has many standardized tests. In fact, their standardized tests conform to an international standard.

How long ago were you in the system?


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## granfire (Jun 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Germany has many standardized tests. In fact, their standardized tests conform to an international standard.
> 
> How long ago were you in the system?



It is unkind to ask a lady such things. 

They have the tests, yes, but not to a ridiculous extend as they have in the US...I mean: At one point in time, my kid's school would not teach at all, in favor of SAT preparations, I think it was from the first of the year through April. That is INSANE!


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## Makalakumu (Jun 1, 2013)

granfire said:


> It is unkind to ask a lady such things.
> 
> They have the tests, yes, but not to a ridiculous extend as they have in the US...I mean: At one point in time, my kid's school would not teach at all, in favor of SAT preparations, I think it was from the first of the year through April. That is INSANE!



Yes, I suppose. How rude of me.

The focus on testing is crazy. I think the assumption behind it is the aspect that makes it crazy, however.


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## granfire (Jun 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I think the assumption behind it is the aspect that makes it crazy, however.



I think I need a translation for that


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## Makalakumu (Jun 1, 2013)

granfire said:


> I think I need a translation for that



Standardized tests for learning are great tools for meaurement if the student chooses to learn a topic and then see how well they learned it. When they are mandatory, the tests are suddenly measuring something different. 

The whole idea that society can open up a childs head and pour knowledge into it whether they want to know it or not is not valid. Standardized tests that would meaure knowledge when chosen, suddenly become measures of obedience when forced.


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## granfire (Jun 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Standardized tests for learning are great tools for meaurement if the student chooses to learn a topic and then see how well they learned it. When they are mandatory, the tests are suddenly measuring something different.
> 
> The whole idea that society can open up a childs head and pour knowledge into it whether they want to know it or not is not valid. Standardized tests that would meaure knowledge when chosen, suddenly become measures of obedience when forced.



I would have to agree with this.
Not to mention that the outcome of the tests determine the funds a school receives = 4 month of 'test preparation'


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## Makalakumu (Jun 1, 2013)

granfire said:


> I would have to agree with this.
> Not to mention that the outcome of the tests determine the funds a school receives = 4 month of 'test preparation'



This is the difference between education and schooling IMO. Education is something that is supposed to help you grow. Schooling teaches obedience and indoctrinates.

The difference lies in whether or not the learning is forced.


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## granfire (Jun 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> This is the difference between education and schooling IMO. Education is something that is supposed to help you grow. Schooling teaches obedience and indoctrinates.
> 
> The difference lies in whether or not the learning is forced.



well, if you ask the kids....all school is forced. 
The difference is more if the knowledge is useful - past the test it is designed for.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 1, 2013)

granfire said:


> well, if you ask the kids....all school is forced.
> The difference is more if the knowledge is useful - past the test it is designed for.



There are a lot of models of education that do not rely on force and coercion.  They give children a greater degree of freedom to study what they want and they maintain high levels of rigor. Children who go to these schools tend to report a higher degree of happiness and satisfaction in there learning.

There are so many things that are wrong with public schools. Many of these things are found no matter which country you live in. With so many options available to educate children, I can completely understand why parents would not want their children to go to them.


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## granfire (Jun 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> There are a lot of models of education that do not rely on force and coercion.  They give children a greater degree of freedom to study what they want and they maintain high levels of rigor. Children who go to these schools tend to report a higher degree of happiness and satisfaction in there learning.
> 
> There are so many things that are wrong with public schools. Many of these things are found no matter which country you live in. With so many options available to educate children, I can completely understand why parents would not want their children to go to them.



I shall give you that. There is a need to revamp the systems, I think Finland is leading there, but not all models work in all places.

But US public schools are very different (and I mean it: VERY different) from German schools. The only think I really like is that they teach band as class...on the other hand, I am sure my German school indoctrinated me with a lot more of useful music knowledge....and I can't play a kazoo! It also helps that school 'over there' leaves you a lot of room for your own kind of hings...Like I said, you get out at 1, in the summer it does not get dark til 10...much different from coming home at three and at 8 it's pitch black.


also: alternative schools to siphon the interested people out of the pool for the public schools....I had my son's 3rd grade teacher nearly break out in tears when I told her we were moving...she had lost another one of her top students that year: 'they are going to fire me' was her response. 
Then again...that town was special in terms of public schools....only one of the many elementary schools was about 50/50 in skin color....all the others were either or. Also a big reason around here to utilize a 'private' school or home schooling....don't want 'them' people until they can run fast and catch a football....

But to take it back to the original family....nope, tough luck. The German people like the schools the way they are. If you do not like regular schools, there are Montesori and Waldorf Schools (I wish one was in my area here), gifted programs that don't fall under budget cuts...If the thousands of Muslims do not have a problem with it....why should a christian family! 

And there are enough fundamentalist Muslims about, they have no problems indoctrinating their kids after hours! (I can only imagine them keeping their girls at home, since its against their believes...)


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