# Kid's self defense



## skribs (Oct 9, 2015)

Most of the self defense skills we practice at my school, especially for the kids, fall into what I would categorize as "bully defense"; mainly how to respond to punches and kicks, and at the advanced level we start getting into hand grabs and body grabs.  Lately I've been showing some of the newer belts how to break a single hand grab (nothing complex, just flexing the wrist and pulling thumb-to-thumb to break the grip), but I want to start going over different scenarios when I have time for something more like "stranger defense."

Some of the things I'm thinking about teaching are how to escape from different types of grabs, like if someone grabs your arm, grabs you from behind, or picks you up.  However, I don't want to make things too complex like our advanced techniques (which are essentially Aikido/Hapkido wrist locks, throws, and breaks), but something simple enough for a younger student to master quickly.  Things like if grabbed from behind, drop into horse stance and elbow the groin; or if grabbed with two hands you can pinch under the tricep to cause a lot of pain. 

There was one technique that I was taught as a kid that I would like to go over, when grabbed and picked up from the front, to box the ears, kick the groin, and run.  I want to do this one, but I'm not sure exactly where I'm supposed to grab when I'm picking them up to have them practice.  Any advice here?

Other things I want to talk about with them are:
1) How to draw attention to yourself when in a dangerous situation
2) How to break out of duct tape
3) How to escape a car trunk or draw attention to yourself by kicking out the tail light and waving
4) All those rules we have in sparring?  Ignore them if a stranger tries to grab you.  Go for the eyes, throat, groin, use whatever you can (i.e. biting)

What sort of things do you teach the kids for self defense?


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

On the subject of 'stranger' danger I would phrase it differently because in the majority of cases of child abuse/attacks it isn't a stranger,
Depending on the age of the child a lot of the 'getting out of car boots' etc aren't going to be feasible and I think you may frighten children with things like duct tape exercises. The difficulty in teaching children is showing them how to defend/escape but without scaring them into thinking someone is always going to be around the corner waiting to abduct them, you have to keep the balance between teaching them and not scaring them.
 The first, 'drawing attention to themselves' is probably the best thing to work on, working with children it's always best to keep things simple, perhaps some exercises that deal with coping with panic, freezing?
I'd advise getting a police officer in to give a talk as well, they can tell them the things like finding another parent/uniformed person/shopkeeper to get help from, passwords and other security 'tricks'.


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## Buka (Oct 9, 2015)

It seems the most common things used by kids to bully other kids are the two handed shove (trying to provoke a response) a wide swing to the face, a headlock and a mount. I think those would be a good place to start. But, in my opinion, it can't be done in a way that's nuetral. You know, thwart the kid until he doesn't bother you anymore. If you're going to teach them to deal with a bully you have to teach them to fight. 

As for self defense against an adult, and crime prevention - I believe the fighting part against other children needs to come first.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

These days though if you try to teach these techniques you will told by the children that if they react physically they will be in deep trouble at school due to the policies of schools. It's a very difficult subject to deal with now. Also with social media being used by youngsters many bullies don't bother actually using force, now they can sit at home bullying.


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## skribs (Oct 9, 2015)

The reason I started thinking about this is we recently had a code purple at my day job (missing child).

Tez, I haven't said that name, more like the way I think about it.  I'm not thinking about doing these things all the time (part of why I want to keep it simple), but I think escape techniques, especially how to get out of grabs are very useful.  While most child abductions are someone you know, those people usually don't have to use physical coercion as part of the abduction - they generally use the relationship to get the child to go along with them.  A stranger is more likely to need a ruse (candy/puppy/your mom is sick) or physically grab you.

A lot of this I'm not thinking about doing every class or doing for an hour at a time, but maybe take 2-3 minutes during a class to go over extra self defense skills every once in a while.  And I wouldn't make it seem like "you have to know this or you'll be in trouble one day", but rather "here's some cool information for you."  I know if I learned the duct tape trick when I was a kid, I would have shown it off to my friends.

I don't know.  Maybe my mind is mainly going there because of what happened at work (I actually don't know what happened, I just assume the kid wandered off, it was found after not too long), but I was thinking about putting some more of these types of things into the class.


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## skribs (Oct 9, 2015)

Tez, you wrote while I posted about the bullying; we actually do teach some skills that are the least violent way to control a situation, but I think it's a lot harder to learn the soft arts at a young age (personal opinion and experience).

When I was a kid, I got into a fight for standing up for someone else, and the school suspended me, but my parents took me out to dinner.  Sometimes the consequences are worth it (although that's the same mentality my dog has when it eats my cheeseburger).


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## drop bear (Oct 9, 2015)

Double undertook defence. I do a different one but for S.D. you could get that.





Escapes and reversals.


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## Koshiki (Oct 10, 2015)

In terms of kid v kid bully-defense, I am actually quite a bit in favor of some basic grappling and control, more than striking, for that very reason. I think that for most kids it's much easier to exercise an appropriate level of control, not hurting the other kid, and also not getting suspended.

In terms of kid v adult self-defense, I think it's got to be almost entirely along the lines of awareness and decision making. I've seen programs, and know people who teach them that focus on kid v adult combat, but the fact is it's pretty easy for an adult to just grab a 65 lb kid, pin their arms to their sides, and walk away....

Not that there's no benefit to that approach; I believe scratching and biting etc _can _ be a deterrent, but those things are a last ditch, inefficient tool for adults. It's just hard to do much to someone three times your size. I personally have no hope that I could satisfactorily dissuade a 9 foot, 400 lb attacker with eye rakes and groin strikes.


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## Koshiki (Oct 10, 2015)

skribs said:


> There was one technique that I was taught as a kid that I would like to go over, when grabbed and picked up from the front, to box the ears, kick the groin, and run.  I want to do this one, but I'm not sure exactly where I'm supposed to grab when I'm picking them up to have them practice.  Any advice here?



It seems to me, that if you have to pick them up a certain way for the technique to work, it would be a very low percentage technique, and I'd probably opt for something more universally applicable.

The only position I really can imagine this one being applicable in, is if the kid is picked up under the armpits, arms free, facing the attacker, much like you might lift a baby. (Not me, I stay away from babies. Terrifying things.)

Anyway, I can't see that being a common way to grab a kid for purposes of either assault or abduction...


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 11, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I think you may frighten children with things like duct tape exercises.


Not to mention that an adult instructor duct taping children's wrists together is probably not going to be looked favorably on by their parents.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 11, 2015)

skribs said:


> Most of the self defense skills we practice at my school, especially for the kids, fall into what I would categorize as "bully defense"; mainly how to respond to punches and kicks, and at the advanced level we start getting into hand grabs and body grabs.  Lately I've been showing some of the newer belts how to break a single hand grab (nothing complex, just flexing the wrist and pulling thumb-to-thumb to break the grip), but I want to start going over different scenarios when I have time for something more like "stranger defense."
> 
> Some of the things I'm thinking about teaching are how to escape from different types of grabs, like if someone grabs your arm, grabs you from behind, or picks you up.  However, I don't want to make things too complex like our advanced techniques (which are essentially Aikido/Hapkido wrist locks, throws, and breaks), but something simple enough for a younger student to master quickly.  Things like if grabbed from behind, drop into horse stance and elbow the groin; or if grabbed with two hands you can pinch under the tricep to cause a lot of pain.
> 
> ...



I can appreciate the thought and concern but I have to say this...I can tell from your post that you really don't have a solid enough foundation of knowledge to try to teach this type of defense.  My suggestion is to bring in a professional from law enforcement or something similar for one class and stick to having a fun class and sport orientated.
I know this might be upsetting for you to hear but ,
1.   your out of your league on this one.
2.  Most parents are not bringing their child to a class to learn this.
3.  If you really care and are concerned then you owe it to them to give them the best instruction possible and not try to make things up in your head which equates to BS.  
Your intentions are in the right place. They deserve more than something you just invented in your head or something that you found on the Internet and looked good to you.  If God forbid they ever need something like this and later you found out that what you taught did not work you will regret it.


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## skribs (Oct 12, 2015)

> Not to mention that an adult instructor duct taping children's wrists together is probably not going to be looked favorably on by their parents.





We tell kids to kick the groin and don’t actually practice it.  You can simply take 5 seconds to say “do you know how to do this?” In a tone that suggests “I am giving you knowledge” not “if you don’t learn this you are going to be in trouble.”  You can teach a lot of things with theory alone (plus, the movements we perform when going into our ready position actually build the muscle memory for this technique).





> I can appreciate the thought and concern but I have to say this...I can tell from your post that you really don't have a solid enough foundation of knowledge to try to teach this type of defense. My suggestion is to bring in a professional from law enforcement or something similar for one class and stick to having a fun class and sport orientated.
> 
> I know this might be upsetting for you to hear but ,
> 
> ...





Who says I invented this in my head?  Most of these are techniques that I have learned through various classes, including my Taekwondo classes when I was a kid (my master was a former Army instructor, and my chief instructor was his wife, a nurse), as well as seminars that police put on in schools.



Like I said, I’m not planning on setting up an hour long course on this and drilling it into the kids.  It’s just something I thought would be useful information if I had some spare time to throw it into class.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 12, 2015)

Skribs,   like i said i can appreciate and respect what you are trying to do. as martial artists many of us have that same feeling, we want to help others.  i do not want you to feel like i am attacking you personally. that is not my intention and i know it is sometimes difficult to separate the the individual from the information being taught. but that is what i am going to try to do, separate you from the information. 
i really need to say this because this is a public forum and when people google "kids defense" this thread will show up and perhaps thousands of people might read it at some point in the future. keep that in mind.  it is not an attack on you but meant to be an eye opener for others.


skribs said:


> Who says I invented this in my head? Most of these are techniques that I have learned through various classes, including my Taekwondo classes when I was a kid (my master was a former Army instructor, and my chief instructor was his wife, a nurse), as well as seminars that police put on in schools.


let me start by saying there is a difference between a "skill set" and a "base of knowledge".  this applies to all martial arts and artists of all ages and genders. 
JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A SKILL SET OF PUNCHING AND KICKING DOESNT MEAN YOU HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE BASE FOR SELF DEFENSE.

i have see this so many times.  a martial artist has has spent a long time learning the  skills to fight and eventually teaches these skills but most often they lack the base of knowledge of what self defense really entails and what it is about.  one does not equal the other.

in this case you have learned a skill set thats great but do not fool yourself into thinking that just because your teacher taught you something about self defense that it automatically is true.  being an army instructor does not make you qualified to teach civilian self defense, nor does being a martial artist.

lets look at your original post...


skribs said:


> Other things I want to talk about with them are:





skribs said:


> 1) How to draw attention to yourself when in a dangerous situation


i would really like to know what your thinking on this one.  many abductions happen and the kid is screaming his head off and it does not deter them in the least. sometimes yes but often no.  we can come back to this later.


skribs said:


> 2) How to break out of duct tape


i dont even know where to begin on this ..ill just say if you taught this i feel many parents would pull their child out of your class.



skribs said:


> 3) How to escape a car trunk or draw attention to yourself by kicking out the tail light and waving


this is the one that really sets off the red flags. 
this little nugget has been around for as long as the internet itself.  it was originally in a list for women's self defense sent out as chain email.  this knowledge is about as useful and real as unicorns.   it shows a total lack of knowledge for both self defense and vehicles.  tell this to any mechanic and they will have a good chuckle.   you cannot "kick out a tail lamp and reach your arm out to flag down other motorists"  vehicles are not built like that.  they are a single molded piece of steel with a few small little bolt holes drilled thru that you could not even reach a little finger thru never mind your entire arm.



skribs said:


> 4) All those rules we have in sparring? Ignore them if a stranger tries to grab you. Go for the eyes, throat, groin, use whatever you can (i.e. biting)


this one is the only one that makes sense, yes to remind them that sparring rules dont apply.
but if i add up all of the things on this list it shows a lack of understanding of what is and is not reality for a self defense situation. 

it has been mentioned a few times now in different ways that you should really think about this and find out some better more professional information from people who have first hand knowledge on child abduction and not rely on "my teacher taught me" . but i will also add that not all law enforcement would be qualified to teach or talk on this subject either. you really want to be giving out the best possible information, so choose your points of knowledge well.


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2015)

skribs said:


> We tell kids to kick the groin and don’t actually practice it



We don't teach children this simply because so many people do tell them to and the first thing any attacker/kidnapper will do is protect their groin.
I agree totally with hoshin, I repeat what I said before as well ( as has hoshin) , that getting a police officer in is the best way forward if you want to have children taught anything like this. Here we have officer with specialised knowledge on how to talk to children about what is a difficult subject that has to be handled correctly so as not to scare children while informing them in such a way they will understand what to do.

Hoshin, I'm not a car person but have just read what you wrote about the car's tail lights in what we call the boot to my husband , he says ours ( in a Landrover) are totally sealed and you can't even see where they are from the boot.


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## Sub Zero (Oct 12, 2015)

Quick question what age is best for a kid to start grappling training? My godson was just born earlier this year and I would like to help him with BJJ when he is old enough.  Some of my, own, instructors have told me teaching kids is difficult because they do not have the attention span or memory to do most of the moves.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 14, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> you cannot "kick out a tail lamp and reach your arm out to flag down other motorists" vehicles are not built like that. they are a single molded piece of steel with a few small little bolt holes drilled thru that you could not even reach a little finger thru never mind your entire arm.


You would have a better chance of taking out all of the light bulbs and hoping a police car pulls them over for not having tail lights or a helpful motorist pulling along side them to tell them their tail lights are out and then banging on the inside of the boot lid with any metal object (like a jack handle) to attract attention.


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## donald1 (Oct 14, 2015)

It seems like most things kids do will get them into trouble. 
If I was teaching kids lots of stretches and excercize. Teach them to be aware of their surroundings.  Teach them when to use self defense. Teach them what is acceptable and what to avoid doing. Blocks would be s useful thing  to teach and possibly how to get out of holds(Like if someone tries to grab them by the wrist or around the neck)


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## kuniggety (Oct 15, 2015)

Sub Zero said:


> Quick question what age is best for a kid to start grappling training? My godson was just born earlier this year and I would like to help him with BJJ when he is old enough.  Some of my, own, instructors have told me teaching kids is difficult because they do not have the attention span or memory to do most of the moves.



I've seen wrestling classes available for kids as young as three. The focus at this age shouldn't be about technique or any fine motor skills. It should be fun activities that encourages large motor skills.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 15, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> You would have a better chance of taking out all of the light bulbs and hoping a police car pulls them over for not having tail lights or a helpful motorist pulling along side them to tell them their tail lights are out and then banging on the inside of the boot lid with any metal object (like a jack handle) to attract attention.



If they've left metal tools in the trunk, then there's probably no reason to bang on anything. Trunk lids are required to have an inside release. If the even was planned, then likely the release will be disabled. And the jack handle removed. If not, then pull the trunk release and jump out at a light. If you can't jump out, the trunk lid flapping around and your feet in the air will get attention faster than banging from the inside.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 15, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Hoshin, I'm not a car person but have just read what you wrote about the car's tail lights in what we call the boot to my husband , he says ours ( in a Landrover) are totally sealed and you can't even see where they are from the boot.



Landrovers are SUVs, and don't HAVE a proper boot to begin with. 
In a CAR, you just have to pull away the carpet (it's intended for this, as it's how you change the bulbs) to gain access. You're still not likely to be able to kick out the light, but you can certainly remove the bulbs. And on many cars, the external light is held in place by large wingnuts or thumbscrews that could be removed, at which point the light will fall off. You're not going to be able to stick your hand out through the bulb-sized holes, in most cases.


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## Tez3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Landrovers are SUVs, and don't HAVE a proper boot to begin with.
> In a CAR, you just have to pull away the carpet (it's intended for this, as it's how you change the bulbs) to gain access. You're still not likely to be able to kick out the light, but you can certainly remove the bulbs. And on many cars, the external light is held in place by large wingnuts or thumbscrews that could be removed, at which point the light will fall off. You're not going to be able to stick your hand out through the bulb-sized holes, in most cases.




Ahem, Landrovers are 4x4s not SUVs here  they are working vehicles not sporting things. In cars in the UK the carpet doesn't hide where the lights are, there's panels or a cover over the back of the bulbs that you have to unclip/remove to get access to the bulbs.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2015)

When I teach kids self-defense, I always let them know that what they are able to do will be limited unless they are training in a fighting system.  My self-defense classes are different from my kung fu classes.  Self-defense classes are geared towards people being able to protect themselves even though they don't train in a fighting system.  For the kung fu classes, everything is geared towards fighting and not necessarily towards self-defense in a preventive environment.  For the self-defense classes I focus on learning how to be aware, which is a big problem for a lot of kids in today's high tech life styles of smartphones and smart devices.  Most kids today can't even pick up on shifts in the environment so they aren't "getting the feeling that someone is following them" or targeting them. 

In short I teach kids
1. Awareness
2. High risk / danger recognition
3. Basic escapes and drawing attention
4. The reality of the world. How you dress, walk, act, carry yourself does matter.
5. How to walk away, how to retreat, and how to allow someone to save face.
6. How to use the surrounding environment to evade
7. How to let it go (kids who get into arguments when they should just let it go
8. Basic punch and Basic front kick.
7. The difference between self-defense and fighting. Sometimes they are the same but a lot of times the self-defense starts before a fight.  Fights happen when everything else to prevent it has failed.
8. What to look for when picking a fighting system for learning more extensive self-defense techniques (A school that has training, conditioning, and sparring that is not based on points).

Awareness is the most important on my list and it's the only one that has saved my butt numerous times by helping me to stay out of bad situations from the beginning.


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## Tez3 (Oct 15, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> 4. The reality of the world. How you dress, walk, act, carry yourself does matter.



Is that just addressed to girls?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Is that just addressed to girls?


Nope.  I gave the same speech to boys about how they dress. For boys being dressed in "thug wear" in the wrong location usually causes them to be seen as criminals, shop lifters, and has the effect of causing police to profile them because they are dressed a certain way.   For girls it was more about how guys are.  When a guy sees a girl dressed in tight clothes he doesn't think "wow doesn't she look smart."  Guys approach women who are dressed in tight or revealing clothes different than they would a woman who wasn't dressed that way.  The speech for girls was more about a discussion of all the perverts, rapists, and other types of harassment that are encourage when they see women dressed in a certain way.  Sort of like don't walk around with money hanging out of your pockets because it encourages the wrong crowd to target you.  
There's a time and place for everything including how we dress.  Guys tend to pick up this lesson faster 

Women tend to take it personal and come out with "I can wear what ever I want."   I understand woman want to look sexy and be attractive to men, but it also attracts the creeps as well.  Guys know how other guys think when it comes to women dressing sexy which is why brothers watch over their sisters the way they do.  I tell people to think of their safety as the world really is and not how it should be.  People shouldn't make assumptions about you because of the way that you dress, but the reality is that everyone does including criminals and people who want to do harm to others.

Dave Chapelle makes it a light joke of it


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 16, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> When a guy sees a girl dressed in tight clothes he doesn't think "wow doesn't she look smart." Guys approach women who are dressed in tight or revealing clothes different than they would a woman who wasn't dressed that way. The speech for girls was more about a discussion of all the perverts, rapists, and other types of harassment that are encourage when they see women dressed in a certain way. Sort of like don't walk around with money hanging out of your pockets because it encourages the wrong crowd to target you.
> There's a time and place for everything including how we dress. Guys tend to pick up this lesson faster


I'm not sure but I think you might be poking a few bears with that statement.

When a pervert decides to sexually assault a female I don't think the way she is dressed is going to be a huge factor. You would have to check the statistics on sexual assaults versus fashion choice to determine if it is a factor at all. In any case "she was dressed sexy" is just an excuse not a reason.


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