# Psychic Karate - No Contact KO - the evolution of karate



## Zero (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok, I know the Isshinryu-legit? thread of sanchin-e went somewhat off-piste, to say the least, and was infamously locked/clossed down, but for a while there were some references to no contact KOs and I had never heard of such a thing and did not know what the guy was on about.

So I did a quick youtube/google trawl and found some footage on supposedly none-contact KOs using mental power - there are people and possibly whole dojos out there devoting time to this stuff and calling it "psychic karate" and the like.

Is this a hoax or has anyone actually on this forum ever experienced such an attack, or even witnessed it?





 




 




 
We did have a pressure point specialist attend our dojo many years back, a slight asian woman who on touching our sensei (a big chap, ex national heavy weight champion) I think around the knee and then temple made him momentarily pass out/fall over but that did involve actual physical contact to nerve bundles or some such thing (and while being very skeptical of the ability of anyone to pull this off against a moving, aggressive attacker or skilled opponent in an actual fight, at least I can understand how through contact to pressure points this may be achieved), however I do not see how this "psychic karate" can be anything more than a joke, hoax or mumbo jumbo - and that is my honest opinion.

Furthermore, what is the application in either self defence or fighting when you have to stare and keep eye contact for so long with your target before they pass out? Sorry if this is all old school to you guys but I am shocked this kind of stuff is out there and only hope not too many students/kids are putting down decent money and time on trying to attain these patently non-existent skills instead of focusing on real fighting techniques or SD.


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## 72ronin (Feb 16, 2011)

Utter rubbish.
The majority of the students dont care what trip the "professor" is on, they just want their next belt!

The first vid made me LOL, thanks


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes and no. Yes, this is possible, and no, it doesn't work quite that way.
What happens with the no-touch crap is that the person subconciously 'knows' it will work. Thus when it is expected, he will act accordingly. This is a form of hypnosis / suggestion. It doesn't just work in this case, but also in cases of mass hysteria for example.

Derren Brown, the illusionist has performed no touch knockouts on tv, explaining afterward that it is just a case of suggestion. He has done plenty of tricks like that ,like convincing people that they cannot possibly lift their cellphone, or even paying people (even 20K to a jeweler) with blank pieces of paper.

The mind is a malleable thing for people who know how to do it, which is why it nearly always works if you know how to do it and if the other person is not suspecting it (like the jeweler who accepted blank paper in trade for a diamond ring).

If the other person IS expecting it and DOESN'T believe it, that is when the fun starts, like for master ryukerin who accepted a challenge from an MMA fighter.

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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 16, 2011)

I can only say that it seems unconvincing to me.  Extraordinary claims, I believe, require extraordinary proof.  I have not seen anything like ordinary proof so far, let alone extraordinary proof.  That is not to say it is not real; I simply am not convinced.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 16, 2011)

I've seen George Dillman try it on a skeptic in a documentary. When it didn't work, he said that you could nullify it by pressing your tongue to your (the upper side of the inside of your mouth. don't know what it is called) or by lifting your big toe and pressing the other big toe down, etc.

It works on believers only. The no-touch stuff, that is. As soon as hanky panky is involved, it is a matter of pressing the right nerve endings and anything goes.


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## Omar B (Feb 16, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can only say that it seems unconvincing to me.  Extraordinary claims, I believe, require extraordinary proof.  I have not seen anything like ordinary proof so far, let alone extraordinary proof.  That is not to say it is not real; I simply am not convinced.



I could quite this whole thing for one of those religion threads!  LOL.

But really, this no touch knockout, no contact karate is laughable at best, sad (for the students) at worst.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 16, 2011)

Omar B said:


> I could quite this whole thing for one of those religion threads!  LOL.
> 
> But really, this no touch knockout, no contact karate is laughable at best, sad (for the students) at worst.



Well, you can't prove a negative in this sense, so (just like religion) it is next to impossible to declare that it absolutely could not be true.  But unlike my religion, which I will take on faith and not require proof, I do require proof before I'm willing to believe this.

With that said, I have myself personally witnessed a couple of things done by martial arts masters, such as Master Angi Uezu back on Okinawa in the 1980's, which I would consider as 'spooky'.  Explainable perhaps, but bordering on not possible without resorting to an extraordinary explanation, to my mind at least.

Yeah, there's some weird stuff in the world, stuff I have seen and cannot explain.  But I do think this no-touch knockout stuff strains credulity a bit too much for me.


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## Omar B (Feb 16, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, you can't prove a negative in this sense, so (just like religion) it is next to impossible to declare that it absolutely could not be true.  But unlike my religion, which I will take on faith and not require proof, I do require proof before I'm willing to believe this.
> 
> With that said, I have myself personally witnessed a couple of things done by martial arts masters, such as Master Angi Uezu back on Okinawa in the 1980's, which I would consider as 'spooky'.  Explainable perhaps, but bordering on not possible without resorting to an extraordinary explanation, to my mind at least.
> 
> Yeah, there's some weird stuff in the world, stuff I have seen and cannot explain.  But I do think this no-touch knockout stuff strains credulity a bit too much for me.



I hear ya Bill.  I've seen stuff that blew my mind when done by my Sensei or Kuk Sa Nim when I was a kid, but you eventually learn how to do them yourself or figure out how the mechanics of the feat works.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 16, 2011)

Omar B said:


> I hear ya Bill.  I've seen stuff that blew my mind when done by my Sensei or Kuk Sa Nim when I was a kid, but you eventually learn how to do them yourself or figure out how the mechanics of the feat works.



I haven't yet figured out the mechanics of how my sensei can make himself too heavy for two strong men to lift.  He's just standing barefoot on the mat; not only is he clearly not gripping the mat (we do that, so we know what it looks like) but the mat doesn't lift up when we try to lift him.  We just can't lift him.  Hypnosis?  That's about the only explanation I can think of that makes sense, but I can tell you my muscles hurt after trying with all my might; something weird was going on and I really don't know what.

But I will accept that there is probably a perfectly logical and scientific explanation that I just haven't discovered yet.


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2011)

I see, thanks for those comments, so at best it is a form of or something like hypnotism where someone who is willingly susceptible is able to "knocked out" by another (and more often than not it is their sensei who they put trust in and happily follow)...and at worst it's just plain old charlatanism.

If it is a neat trick then good luck to them but I wish they'd keep it the hell out of karate or martial arts in general as I see zero application in the spheres of MA, be it in tournaments or real street/SD situations.

Anyway, thanks for the comments.

Bill, I have never witnissed first hand what you say about your training in Okinawa but have heard talk of this kind of thing also, not sure if it is an advanced form of physical skill - or something to do with playing with your mind; I saw some programme where there are certain wrestlers that specialise in not being able to be moved or flipped over (re an Indian form of competivie wrestling where when your back hits the ground you're out) and even pretty big guys cold not move them, so maybe something like this...but having done a lot of reasonably heavy weights and some power lifting when I was younger I find it hard to understand how a guy or guys of certain strength/lifting capability can't lift a chap who's a certain weight (well within their lifting parameters) off the ground if he is not gripping the surface or something, be it with his toes or legs or whatever.


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## Victor Smith (Feb 16, 2011)

Hi Bill,

The ability to cement yourself to the ground so you can't be lifted is an old 'aikido' ki stunt.

The way I've seen it is two 'guy's can first lift another, then they can't get his feet off the floor. 

The principle is relax your shoulders so there is no connection between the arms and the body.  So they have the arms but lifting what's happening is the arms aren't lifting the body and they're trying to lift a dead weight. Much, much more difficult.

But not a 'skill' but an understanding what to do.  I've shown kids how to do it.

It's related to protesters going 'limp' and requiring many officers to lift them.

Nothing magic, but to a caveman science is magic.


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## K-man (Feb 16, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I haven't yet figured out the mechanics of how my sensei can make himself too heavy for two strong men to lift. He's just standing barefoot on the mat; not only is he clearly not gripping the mat (we do that, so we know what it looks like) but the mat doesn't lift up when we try to lift him. We just can't lift him. Hypnosis? That's about the only explanation I can think of that makes sense, but I can tell you my muscles hurt after trying with all my might; something weird was going on and I really don't know what.
> 
> But I will accept that there is probably a perfectly logical and scientific explanation that I just haven't discovered yet.


I copped flack from all sides a couple of years ago when I tried to find out from people on this forum about their experiences with ki. I don't believe what your sensei is doing is hypnosis and I don't believe it is just relaxing the body, although that does form part of it. Currently I am reading "The KATAS" by Kenji Tokitsu we he quotes references of Swordsman and Master, Yamaoka Tesshu and his experience of being unable to attack his master, Chiba Shusaku, and after Chiba's death when training under Master Asari Matashichiro, experiencing the same phenomenon. It is the ability of the person being attacked to influence the intent of the attacker with the mind. I have also experienced the opposite where you lose the intent or will to resist.

There are references in the books to the Masters performing feats of 'superhuman' strength or effortlessly defeating any attack. I've just had a quick look in "The Way of Kata" (Kris Wild and Lawrence Kane) because I thought I saw it there. Couldn't see it at a glance.

I agree that it is weird, but I have experienced this type of thing first hand also. I have a scientific background and I am also qualified as a PT so I understand biomechanics. I have no explanation so until someone shows me otherwise I will continue to call it "Weird Science". 

As for the no touch KO. I won't say it's impossible because I haven't seen it first hand. I will say that what I have seen on video would just be an exercise and of no practical use in a SD scenario. :asian:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 16, 2011)

*No touch KO's....... LOL that is funny!* What is said above is true if someone buy's into this with their teacher then they will go along with it. Unfortunately when you meet someone who cares less who you are or simply does not believe in such stuff then it will not work!  So it is worthless for personal protection because frankly when someone attacks you they are going to be amped up and not buying into your fantasy. Watch the Kia master video when he could hardly believe that he was hit in the face! Cold hard reality hit him square in the mouth! All those years of playing and abusing his students with KI power was worthless. Mind you that the mind, body, spirtiual side of a martial practitioner is quite powerful if they train hard and with serious dedication but the "No Touch KO's" are not practical nor effecient and not real martial practice! 

PS if anyone that can knock me out without touching me from a distance I will pay them some money! (that would be a great trick) Several thousand dollars with a contract signed before hand! (of course if they fail they have to pay me the same  ) However, they cannot come close to me and if they try like some of these charlatans to strike me then they will of course violate the contract and be subject to getting knocked out themselves! :rofl:


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## Omar B (Feb 16, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *No touch KO's....... LOL that is funny!* What is said above is true if someone buy's into this with their teacher then they will go along with it. Unfortunately when you meet someone who cares less who you are or simply does not believe in such stuff then it will not work!  So it is worthless for personal protection because frankly when someone attacks you they are going to be amped up and not buying into your fantasy. Watch the Kia master video when he could hardly believe that he was hit in the face! Cold hard reality hit him square in the mouth! All those years of playing and abusing his students with KI power was worthless. Mind you that the mind, body, spirtiual side of a martial practitioner is quite powerful if they train hard and with serious dedication but the "No Touch KO's" are not practical nor effecient and not real martial practice!
> 
> *PS if anyone that can knock me out without touching me from a distance I will pay them some money!* (that would be a great trick) Several thousand dollars with a contract signed before hand! (of course if they fail they have to pay me the same  ) However, they cannot come close to me and if they try like some of these charlatans to strike me then they will of course violate the contract and be subject to getting knocked out themselves! :rofl:



I fart in your general direction!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 16, 2011)

Omar B said:


> I fart in your general direction!


 
That might knock me out!!!


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## K-man (Feb 16, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Mind you that the mind, body, spiritual side of a martial practitioner is quite powerful if they train hard and with serious dedication but the *"No Touch KO's" are not practical nor effecient and not real martial practice!*


 What he said!  :asian:


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## jks9199 (Feb 16, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *No touch KO's....... LOL that is funny!* What is said above is true if someone buy's into this with their teacher then they will go along with it. Unfortunately when you meet someone who cares less who you are or simply does not believe in such stuff then it will not work!  So it is worthless for personal protection because frankly when someone attacks you they are going to be amped up and not buying into your fantasy. Watch the Kia master video when he could hardly believe that he was hit in the face! Cold hard reality hit him square in the mouth! All those years of playing and abusing his students with KI power was worthless. Mind you that the mind, body, spirtiual side of a martial practitioner is quite powerful if they train hard and with serious dedication but the "No Touch KO's" are not practical nor effecient and not real martial practice!
> 
> PS if anyone that can knock me out without touching me from a distance I will pay them some money! (that would be a great trick) Several thousand dollars with a contract signed before hand! (of course if they fail they have to pay me the same  ) However, they cannot come close to me and if they try like some of these charlatans to strike me then they will of course violate the contract and be subject to getting knocked out themselves! :rofl:


Hey, Brian...

Does it count if I pay Rich to drop by and knock you out for me?  (Rich -- we'll split "some money"  )

Have I seen, felt, and even done some things that I cannot explain?  Yes.  Do I believe that Dillman or anyone else I've seen can truly knock me out without touching me?  No.  I've seen video of Hatsumi and a few others doing a "no touch" throw; it's not magic.  It's mastery of timing against a committed attack.  

James Randi has had a rather large check in his wallet for a number of years, just waiting for someone to prove ESP/paranormal/REAL magic.  It seems to me that, if you could truly KO a non-complaint individual reliably without touching them, that check'd be pretty easy to claim.


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## Narges (Feb 17, 2011)

Very unlikely. 

Pressure points are okay and if you believe in Ki you would believe that a gentle-looking strike might be vital, but _no-touch_ is just...


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## elder999 (Feb 17, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> PS if anyone that can knock me out without touching me from a distance I will pay them some money! (that would be a great trick) Several thousand dollars with a contract signed before hand! (of course if they fail they have to pay me the same  ) However, they cannot come close to me and if they try like some of these charlatans to strike me then they will of course violate the contract and be subject to getting knocked out themselves! :rofl:


 
I can do this, but you have to let me hypnotize you first-I promise I won't make you cluck like a chicken or anything like that.....:lfao: 



Bill Mattocks said:


> .
> 
> Yeah, there's some weird stuff in the world, stuff I have seen and cannot explain. But I do think this no-touch knockout stuff strains credulity a bit too much for me.


 
_heh...heh..._

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## Martin h (Feb 18, 2011)

There is no such thing as real Magic. Santa does not exist. The stork is not responsible for bringing children to new parents. No-touch KO are bogus.


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## K-man (Feb 18, 2011)

Martin h said:


> There is no such thing as real Magic. Santa does not exist. The stork is not responsible for bringing children to new parents. No-touch KO are bogus.


 I know a whole lot of little kids who would disagree with you!


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## D.Cobb (Feb 19, 2011)

Martin h said:


> There is no such thing as real Magic. Santa does not exist. The stork is not responsible for bringing children to new parents. No-touch KO are bogus.


HEY! Say what you like about no touch KOs but don't you dare dis Santa


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 19, 2011)

No touch knockouts are a bunch of garbage IMO.. However I do believe internal energy (ki or qi) does exist and can help your technique. But to make a technique work and knock someone out you have to touch them.


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## chinto (Feb 19, 2011)

well all I can say is,  I DO NOT BUY NO TOUCH KO! sorry not buying it at all!

there was a man who debunks such things that went to a Dillman demo and Dillman could not KO him with his "no touch ko".  Dillmans answer was "his tongue must have been on the roof of his mouth and that prevented it"  LOL


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