# Calling all Kickboxers! Do you have a grading syllabus/belt system in kickboxing?



## myusername

Hello folks,

I am currently looking at kickboxing schools in Bristol, England and pretty much every kickboxing school I have found has a belt system from white to black belt. In another thread, when I queried one of the schools pricing structure for the gradings people seemed genuinely rather shocked that there was a belt system at all. 

Are there any kickboxers on this forum who could shed any light on this? Is there normally a grading syllabus in Kickboxing? Or is my city a little weird for having such a large proportion of schools offering one?

Obviously non kickboxers offer your views as well. Can you have a black belt in Kickboxing?


----------



## ArmorOfGod

myusername said:


> Can you have a black belt in Kickboxing?


 
You could have a rank in Muay Thai kickboxing, but not just kickboxing.
Kickboxing is something you do with a style; it is not a style itself.

If someone says their style is "kickboxing," that is kind of like asking what football team they play on their reply is "Super Bowl."  The answer just doesn't make sense.

AoG


----------



## jarrod

the closest thing to a grading in kickboxing will be based on ring experience. i.e., 0-5 fights, you're a novice, 6-15 fights, you're intermediate...something like that. but no, white belts & black belts are virtually unheard of.

my coach teaches kickboxing as well as kung fu.  on sparring nights the kickboxers & kung fu students all spar together.  if someone does kung fu & kickboxing, they get sashes for kung fu.  if they just do kung fu, they get sashes for kung fu.  if they just kickbox, they just kickbox.  

hope this helps!  & listen to tez's recommendations on schools to check out.

jf


----------



## IcemanSK

The kickboxing gym where I trained years ago did have a belt system. It was based on knowledge of full contact rules kickboxing & a bit of Tang Soo Do (the head trainer was a 3rd Dan in TSD). The school was open for 20 years & only 3 BB's were awarded. 

I was there in the last 5 years of operation (the trainer died) & tested to green belt in that system.

We had a lot of world champion boxers & kickboxers train there. The belt system was a bit of an aside when I got there. How one fought in the ring was always more important than one's belt rank. By the time I got there, even the BB's didn't wear them.


----------



## myusername

I have been searching around the web and on other forums (nowhere near as good as this one I must add!) on this subject. Because I must admit to being confused that something so uncommon is so very very common in my area. I mean every single school bar the mma ones that I have looked at has a grading syllabus for kickboxing in my town.

I came across this thread that seems to make the point that this could be a european phenomenom. This could perhaps explain why it is so rare in America but widespread across the UK.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4724.html

Then there was this one that shows that kickboxing ranks do exist but debates whether or not they should;

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061005063438AAEUSCx

and then this one that is Mauy Thai orientated but debates the merits of grading at all, again indicating that a lot of clubs offer gradings.

http://message.axkickboxing.com/index.phtml?action=dispthread&topic=16248&junk=1120654400.66864

My own personal take on this is that you don't need gradings in kickboxing. Kickboxing is about fighting and it does not matter if you have a yellow belt or a black belt all that matters is whether you can beat the opponent sharing the ring with you.

I am looking at two clubs this week which both have a grading syllabus on offer. Despite the warnings on this site I am not concerned as I feel a bit more reassured now that this may be a european thing and not necessarily a sign of a mcdojo. Apparently students are not obligated to take gradings in the clubs I am visiting but it is an optional extra. I will probably not be eligible anyway due to only being able to train once a week because I do my jujutsu on my other training nights. 

However, I will keep an open mind and look closely at the differences in skill between the black belts and lower ranks to ascertain wether the schools grading system has merit and is not just a money making scheme. If the ranking system is availiable to me and makes sense then, due to me only training once a week, and as such unlikely to train for competition then then I can see no real harm in grading to measure my progress. Obviously, only if I can see from the skill sets of the other students that the ranking system does in fact genuinely measure progress.

I'll probably keep quiet when around other martial artists if I ever become a black belt in kickboxing though


----------



## AMP-RYU

I personally teach sport kickboxing, its for the students who want to learn the kicks blocks attacks without the whole "karate" setting. It brings a whole new class of students (16-25 year olds male/female) and I do test my kickboxing students. Its based off skill. I have a certain skill level my students should be at and expect.

White belt-orange belt 
4 months
kicks blocks hand strikes
spar 1 - 2min round

Orange-Blue belt
4 months
kicks blocking hand strikes
spar 2 - 3min rounds

blue-red belt
6 months
kicks blocks hands
spar 3 - 3min rounds

red - black belt
10 months
kicks combos blocks hand tech
spar 5 - 3min rounds

Just the way I do it and it works for me, not all students want to go through all the forms/katas and traditional karate....this allows for a whole new era of student.:asian:


----------



## jarrod

AMP-RYU said:


> I personally teach sport kickboxing, its for the students who want to learn the kicks blocks attacks without the whole "karate" setting. It brings a whole new class of students (16-25 year olds male/female) and I do test my kickboxing students. Its based off skill. I have a certain skill level my students should be at and expect.


 
do you have a background in boxing?  just curious.

jf


----------



## lklawson

People who go to teaching Kickboxing from Boxing will find the idea of belt-ranks odd.  People who move to teaching Kickboxing from teaching Karate will import a similar belt-rank structure almost every time.  This is common.  Heck there was even an episode of Fraser where the brother (Niles) claimed to be a "Yellow Belt" in his "Kickboxing" style.

Savate (Boxe Francaise/French Boxing) has "glove" ranks which are, historically, based on ring performance with Silver Gloves being the top rank.  However, some have recently began importing a technique/skills based ranking structure and incorporating that into the glove ranks.

Again, this is not without precedent.  Some Judo organizations won't promote to some ranks (notably shodan) unless the student has participated in some tournaments.

What it boils down to is, like any other generic term such as "Karate," it depends entirely on the predilections of the school and there is absolutely no uniform consensus.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## AMP-RYU

jarrod said:


> do you have a background in boxing? just curious.
> 
> jf


 
No background in boxing.....dont see the point of using just your hands when you have two perfectly good legs!:asian:


----------



## jarrod

AMP-RYU said:


> No background in boxing.....dont see the point of using just your hands when you have two perfectly good legs!:asian:


 
then how do you teach kickboxing?  not trying to be a jerk or anything, but kickboxing isn't just karate with out the katas.

jf


----------



## AMP-RYU

jarrod said:


> then how do you teach kickboxing? not trying to be a jerk or anything, but kickboxing isn't just karate with out the katas.
> 
> jf


 
Its just exactly that! I teach in a sport environment sparring with the feet and hands without getting hit back. But with my martial arts background I also teach my students how to move around the ring using their feet, which when I watch "Kickboxing" on television or at tournaments most fighters lack. Also most kickboxers just put their hands up and take a hit I teach not to get hit.

As far as how do "I" teach it, hopefully the same way anyone else teaches it, I start "class" by warming up, than my fighters put on their gear....gloves, head gear, and we spar in a ring. I teach them how to watch for certain pre motions to judge their opponants next movement and strike before they do. 

Listen my man, "muay tai" is not the only kickboxing martial art, and hopefully anyone teaching kickboxing has some sort of martial arts background. Kickboxing is not just wailing your hands and feet at you opponant until someone gets knocked out. Its also about control and any "martial artist" can kickbox.

Being a martial artist, and training for many years I take offense to anyone questioning my ability to teach a way of sparring, just because I have no boxing background. All "boxing" is, is a sport wailing your arms at your opponant trying to knock them out. I dont see the point in just using your hands if you have feet as well, so I would never train in just boxing.

If their is so much more to kickboxing than blocking your opponant and throwing an offensive, than I would like to hear. Thank you


----------



## AMP-RYU

jarrod said:


> then how do you teach kickboxing? not trying to be a jerk or anything, but kickboxing isn't just karate with out the katas.
> 
> jf


 
The term _kickboxing_ was created by the Japanese boxing promoter Osamu Noguchi for a variant of Muay Thai and "*Karate*" that he created in the 1950s. The term was later used by the American variant. When used by the practitioners of those two styles, it usually refers to those styles specifically.


----------



## jarrod

AMP-RYU said:


> Its just exactly that! I teach in a sport environment sparring with the feet and hands without getting hit back. But with my martial arts background I also teach my students how to move around the ring using their feet, which when I watch "Kickboxing" on television or at tournaments most fighters lack. Also most kickboxers just put their hands up and take a hit I teach not to get hit.
> 
> As far as how do "I" teach it, hopefully the same way anyone else teaches it, I start "class" by warming up, than my fighters put on their gear....gloves, head gear, and we spar in a ring. I teach them how to watch for certain pre motions to judge their opponants next movement and strike before they do.
> 
> Listen my man, "muay tai" is not the only kickboxing martial art, and hopefully anyone teaching kickboxing has some sort of martial arts background. Kickboxing is not just wailing your hands and feet at you opponant until someone gets knocked out. Its also about control and any "martial artist" can kickbox.
> 
> Being a martial artist, and training for many years I take offense to anyone questioning my ability to teach a way of sparring, just because I have no boxing background. All "boxing" is, is a sport wailing your arms at your opponant trying to knock them out. I dont see the point in just using your hands if you have feet as well, so I would never train in just boxing.
> 
> If their is so much more to kickboxing than blocking your opponant and throwing an offensive, than I would like to hear. Thank you


 
well first of all like i mentioned i wasn't trying to be a jerk, so stay cool. second if you think all boxing is is wailing your arms away you really should spend a little time with a boxing coach as there's a lot of science to it. third i never said you couldn't teach sparring, i questioned whether you were qualified to teach kickboxing, since boxing is in integral part of kickboxing.  most kickboxing instructors are trained specifically in a form of kickboxing, or have trained boxing & added it to their other martial arts experience.  if you want to teach a sparring class i think that's great, but i personally wouldn't call it kickboxing.

jf


----------



## myusername

AMP-RYU said:


> All "boxing" is, is a sport wailing your arms at your opponant trying to knock them out. I dont see the point in just using your hands if you have feet as well, so I would never train in just boxing.



I don't wish to fan the flames of this post as I can see that you were replying with passion and that this may explain your use of words, but I would sincerely hope that someone teaching kickboxing doesn't view regular boxing in this way. There is so much more to boxing than wailing your arms at your opponent! There is stance, footwork, defensive and evasive movement and mastery of body mechanics to develop the power behind the punch, there is hard training and drilling of technique and real skill in the well trained boxers delivery of combinations. 

A kickboxer neglecting hand skills is a kickboxer missing out on a huge range of offensive techniques and a kickboxer that is limiting themselves to only being able to fight at kicking range. I would also suggest that a kickboxer who has no boxing skills is giving their opponent a weakness that is very easy to exploit. Close them down and they are yours for the taking.


----------



## AMP-RYU

myusername said:


> I don't wish to fan the flames of this post as I can see that you were replying with passion and that this may explain your use of words, but I would sincerely hope that someone teaching kickboxing doesn't view regular boxing in this way. There is so much more to boxing than wailing your arms at your opponent! There is stance, footwork, defensive and evasive movement and mastery of body mechanics to develop the power behind the punch, there is hard training and drilling of technique and real skill in the well trained boxers delivery of combinations.
> 
> A kickboxer neglecting hand skills is a kickboxer missing out on a huge range of offensive techniques and a kickboxer that is limiting themselves to only being able to fight at kicking range. I would also suggest that a kickboxer who has no boxing skills is giving their opponent a weakness that is very easy to exploit. Close them down and they are yours for the taking.


 
I understand this, Im not knocking boxing. I just dont think you need a background in boxing in order to teach kickboxing! And as I stated above kickboxing was developed from karate! So for him to tell me I cant teach kickboxing because__________ I dont think this is correct. There are different ways of kickboxing, not just one way. I teach sport kickboxing, I train my fighters and we do matches. So are you saying that if one of my students goes into a kickboxing match and fights using more of the legs and blocking than since they know "karate" they must be cheating? So if they win I guess they still cant kickbox? I really dont know what this discussion is over, all I know is that I personally would never question another martial artists background in a public forum! I feel disrespected even though you said you meant no disrespect.


----------



## AMP-RYU

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]*Basic Explanation of various "Rules Styles" of Kickboxing*[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]*Kickboxing has several different rules which fighters can compete in. Each having their own distinct style. *[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive][FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]*"Full Contact Rules"* or better known as *"FCR"* - this name is a little misleading. *It* *is derived from the earlier days of full contact* *sport karate*. FCR is actually the most limited and does not allow kicks to the legs, nor can the fighter use knees, elbows or throws. Even though this rule's style is more limited then the others, it does not mean it is less intense! FCR fighters, both professional and amateurs, wear *Karate* pants and foam foot and shin protection. Most amateurs wear head gear, but the pros do not. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive][FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]*"International Rules"* or *"IR"* allows kicks to the legs as well as the upper torso, but no knees, elbows or throws. IR fighters traditionally wear Boxing shorts or Muay Thai shorts. They also wear shin and instep protection (The shin/instep allows the toes to stick out and is usually fabric or leather, not the foam as used in FCR). Again, most amateurs will wear headgear while professionals will not wear any of the protective gear except boxing gloves. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]​[/FONT][/FONT]


----------



## myusername

AMP-RYU said:


> I understand this, Im not knocking boxing. I just dont think you need a background in boxing in order to teach kickboxing! And as I stated above kickboxing was developed from karate! So for him to tell me I cant teach kickboxing because__________ I dont think this is correct. There are different ways of kickboxing, not just one way. I teach sport kickboxing, I train my fighters and we do matches. So are you saying that if one of my students goes into a kickboxing match and fights using more of the legs and blocking than since they know "karate" they must be cheating? So if they win I guess they still cant kickbox? I really dont know what this discussion is over, all I know is that I personally would never question another martial artists background in a public forum! I feel disrespected even though you said you meant no disrespect.



No disrespect intended from myself and I apologise if I caused offence. I was replying to your sentence about the merits of boxing specifically. :asian:

I personally do not believe that it is _essential_ that you have a background in boxing to teach kickboxing, although I do think it would help to have some knowledge as it is likely a future opponent will have some boxing skills. I stand by my thinking that it would be a foolish move to ignore/neglect hand skills in kickboxing though. This doesn't _have_ to come from western boxing as there are lots of hand skills already in karate and TKD and your different approach to striking may even throw your opponent off his game but I can honestly say that my punching power has drastically improved since taking up boxing just once a week.  It is more than just wailing arms about!


----------



## jarrod

i never said you couldn't teach it, i said i wouldn't personally call it kickboxing.  i don't see anything wrong with questioning another martial artist's background so long as it's done respectfully, which i tried to do.

jf


----------



## searcher

I don't want anyone to get any more riled up then they are currently, but I have seen guys from different styles take a shot at kickboxing and I have to say that 99.9% sucked at kickboxing.   It was like they had no hand technique at all.  They fell back on a sport version of sparring and they got tore up.   if a person is teaching kickboxing and they have not spent time boxing then they are doing a dis-service to their students and their school.   I require all of my students that want to venture into the kickboxing arena to spend time at a boxing club working on their boxing skills.   I boxed GG for 7 years and I teach boxing on a limited level, but I still require my kickboxers to workout with guys who are experts in the Sweet Science.


A question for any who have _kickboxers_ and don't teach them boxing, how do they do?   How many fall apart when they get tied up with?


----------



## Jimi

Having been involved in the United States Amateur Boxing Federation as a teen while training in TSD/MDK/TKD & Okinawan Kobudo & Karate among many other arts, I must agree that Black Belt rank in Karate, Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan or Tae Kwon Do does not a coach in Boxing or Kickboxing make. How does TKD or Karate prepare you to corner for someone in Full Contact be it Boxing or any variation of Kickboxing? It's just is not there unless your Instructor is a recognized Coach by the USABF like one of my Coaches was. People like Joe Lewis have that ring experience, but because Mr Lewis is a BB not does not mean BB rank =Full Contact Coach. I realize I am being harsh here, but I have trained a great deal in Boxing, Bama Lethwei & Muay Thai & it is an insult to see someone state "I don't think you need a background in boxing in order to teach kickboxing". Sounds like " I don't think you need a background in Medicine to give Medical Care, I am certified at CPR, That should be more than enough to operate a practice" Someone who is a BB in Karate does not make a Full Contact Fighting Coach. They are two different animals. I worry for those who would dare fight Full Contact under the training of someone with such a narrow minded view of KICKBOXING. Do you teach Kickboxers for sactioned bouts, or do you just use the term to draw more paying students? Just because you post that you feel disrespected does not give your opinion (that you don't need a boxing background to teach Kickboxing) any more validity. If you teach a system of Karate well know for Full Contact (Like Kyokushin Do, Joe Lewis Full COntact or some other art that really trains you to handle a fighters full contact training & corner) then you there you go, But if you are a BB in Joe Blows corner Karate school, then Full Contact Trainers & Fighters will have issue with your background. AMP-RYU, do you know how to corner a fighter, take care of welts, swelling & cuts? Do you register with an USABF Doctor before & after bouts? Have you ever fought Full Contact yourself? That carries much more weight in Kickboxing cirlces than a Black Belt rank. You will hate me for this post, but the Full Contact Fighters & Coaches who know me would hate me for not giving my opinion. PEACE


----------



## AMP-RYU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL9ZXos8LfQ&feature=related

Explains it all.


----------



## Jimi

So a fight between A TKD guy & A Muay Thai guy qualifies you to Coach Kickboxing? You lost me.


----------



## Jimi

I would like to know what training other than a 4th Dan in AMP-RYU Assoc. prepares you to corner for Kickboxing? Do you prepare fighters for Full Contact or no?


----------



## Jimi

AMP-RYU, are trying to explain that you teach your arts sparring and call it kickboxing? I can agree you are teaching Sparring, although many of us do not see karate sparring as the same animal as KICKBOXING which in most cases is a hard Full Contact ring sport of arts such as Boxing itself, Bama Lethwei, Muay Thai, and even Cambodian & Laocian arts. These arts put people in the ring for the intent of Full Contact fighting sanctioned by some governing body requiring the Coach to have sufficient training to handle Fighter prep, cornering & ringside medical care for the fighter. If you have trained to handle the corner etc... you would have no objection to someones opinion about a background in Boxing or a Full Contact Kickboxing art, which is better than just BB rank in Karate then teaching KICKBOXING! Again, I realize I am being harsh, but the defense of " I am a BB how dare you question my capabilities to teach Kickboxing." That offends me. Is it Sparring that you teach?


----------



## Jimi

Come on man. That video explains nothing relative to my questions. I feel you will justify your INSTRUCTION of KICKBOXING based on your Assoc's sparring rules & say that makes it Kickboxing and you are a Kickboxing instructor. You can teach someone to spar & even throw them into a full contact ring, but my opinion is , you as a teacher & your student as a fighter in the ring will be better off if you had some form of Full Contact (Boxing) experience, especially in the case of cornering for a fighter. Both of you would be the better for it. Do you see what I am getting at or will you take this as a grand insult to your BB rank acheivement?


----------



## jks9199

Jimi said:


> Come on man. That video explains nothing relative to my questions. I feel you will justify your INSTRUCTION of KICKBOXING based on your Assoc's sparring rules & say that makes it Kickboxing and you are a Kickboxing instructor. You can teach someone to spar & even throw them into a full contact ring, but my opinion is , you as a teacher & your student as a fighter in the ring will be better off if you had some form of Full Contact (Boxing) experience, especially in the case of cornering for a fighter. Both of you would be the better for it. Do you see what I am getting at or will you take this as a grand insult to your BB rank acheivement?


You might consider giving him more than an hour to respond...

I agree that having ring experience is very helpful, and even desirable, but it is possible for a person to prepare a fighter from their base art for a full contact match.  They'll need to do some research and learn about appropriate conditioning exercises... but they can do it.


----------



## AMP-RYU

I have a seperate class, besides my "karate" class that I offer for Full Contact Sport Karate aka "kickboxing". All we do is condition, and train in a sport environment. One on one full contact. I was asked if I had a background in boxing and I replied simply no. I personally dont see the point that you need all of this experience in a hands only "sport" to kickbox! I teach my "Sport Karate" aka "sport kickboxing" full contact sparring. Yes when we train we wear head gear and foot protection and gloves, and even in ametuer fights they wear head gear. I don't see how anyone can say that someone that teaches "kickboxing" and has no background in "boxing" is not qualified to teach kickboxing!? When kickboxing was dirived from full contact "SPORT KARATE". Rmember BOXING and KICKBOXING are two different sports! Im done arguing my point, Im a martial artist, not just a kickboxer!


----------



## Nolerama

AMP-RYU said:


> I have a seperate class, besides my "karate" class that I offer for Full Contact Sport Karate aka "kickboxing". All we do is condition, and train in a sport environment. One on one full contact. I was asked if I had a background in boxing and I replied simply no. I personally dont see the point that you need all of this experience in a hands only "sport" to kickbox! I teach my "Sport Karate" aka "sport kickboxing" full contact sparring. Yes when we train we wear head gear and foot protection and gloves, and even in ametuer fights they wear head gear. I don't see how anyone can say that someone that teaches "kickboxing" and has no background in "boxing" is not qualified to teach kickboxing!? When kickboxing was dirived from full contact "SPORT KARATE". Rmember BOXING and KICKBOXING are two different sports! Im done arguing my point, Im a martial artist, not just a kickboxer!



How can you be full contact when you teach not to get hit? I mean, you're GONNA get hit sooner or later. And I'd rather be used to the idea, than be stunned by it.

That video BTW, the TKD guy had his chin waaay up. I don't know about that Muay Thai guy, but he should have threw a punch in there to end it. Just my $.02


----------



## AMP-RYU

Jimi said:


> Again, I realize I am being harsh, but the defense of " I am a BB how dare you question my capabilities to teach Kickboxing." That offends me. Is it Sparring that you teach?


 
I never said this! I never said *"IM A BB HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY ABILITIES TO TEACH KICKBOXING" *
I did say being a* MARTIAL ARTIST *I am offended that another martial artist would question a fellow martial artist background for just expaining how he does his rankings! I came onto this forum to expain my belt ranking system to help someone else out. Not to be questioned about this and that. I do in fact teach sparring in my *MARTIAL ARTS CLASS, *but in my Kickboxing class we do full contact sport Karate in which kickboxing was derived! But if I put Sport Karate on my building and my flyers my target age groups would think "karate is stupid" and I wouldnt have my students! People recognize Kickboxing faster as being...."COOL". I am teaching Kickboxing/sport karate.


----------



## AMP-RYU

Nolerama said:


> How can you be full contact when you teach not to get hit? I mean, you're GONNA get hit sooner or later. And I'd rather be used to the idea, than be stunned by it.
> 
> That video BTW, the TKD guy had his chin waaay up. I don't know about that Muay Thai guy, but he should have threw a punch in there to end it. Just my $.02


 
Full contact is what I teach in my kickboxing class, but why would I teach my students to take a hit when they can avoid them?:shrug: They do take full contact hits, but I teach them how to avoid this.:asian:


----------



## Nolerama

AMP-RYU said:


> Full contact is what I teach in my kickboxing class, but why would I teach my students to take a hit when they can avoid them?:shrug: They do take full contact hits, but I teach them how to avoid this.:asian:



Is that a guarantee? 100% avoidance of all strikes?

Just one glancing blow to the face could freak someone out.


----------



## jks9199

Y'know, folks, coaching and training for full contact is a great topic... but I don't think it has all that much to do with whether or not ranking in kickboxing is offered or appropriate.  Might I steer you all to the NEW THREAD button, and suggest a move?


----------



## AMP-RYU

Nolerama said:


> Is that a guarantee? 100% avoidance of all strikes?
> 
> Just one glancing blow to the face could freak someone out.


 
So your stating that a real kickboxing instructor would teach their students to take blows to the face?


----------



## searcher

AMP-RYU said:


> So your stating that a real kickboxing instructor would teach their students to take blows to the face?


 

No, but they need to be prepared for it.


----------



## theletch1

[rtt]Jeff Letchford[/rtt]


----------



## Jimi

jks9199 said:


> You might consider giving him more than an hour to respond...


  AMP-RYU was online at the time & viewing the thread. I guess he was researching for a response. I thought he wanted to discuss our difference of opinion.


----------



## Jimi

I have trained in Bando for many years & am a National Black Belt SuperHeavy Weight Bronze Medalist from 1995. The ABA has a ranking system of belts, but  that rank is not relavent to only the Kickboxing skills, it covers traditional drills & forms as well as weapons, stick & blades etc... A MARTIAL ART if you will. I also trained in the TBA for years. Again as a teen I trained in the USABF. Other than the ABA's use of Belt rank & Kyokushin Karate Full Contact, most full contact Kickboxing arts do not use belt rank. It is just not that common.


----------



## AMP-RYU

Jimi said:


> AMP-RYU was online at the time & viewing the thread. I guess he was researching for a response. I thought he wanted to discuss our difference of opinion.


 I was not "researching for answers" I was ignoring you but if you want to go at it fine! What differences do we have? I teach a class, seperate than my Martial arts class, that teaches just kicks, blocks, foot movement and punching/jabs/uppercuts ect. We train hard, and we fight full contact american rules. FYI no kicks below the waist, punches and kicks, head gear optional, must wear foot gear and gloves and must have long pants. Competetors fight in weight classes men and women. I teach full contact sport karate..."kickboxing". Kickboxing was never meant to be a "style". Why not have a "martial arts" background? Kickboxing was built around Sport Karate as a way to tournament fight! So Im not going to let someone tell me that because I also teach Karate Im not "certified" to teach Kickboxing! All kickboxing is is a tournament style! There are many ways to Kickbox. Many different styles. I choose american style, because it reflects more of the "karate" style. If you like Muay Tai so be it, I personally dont know muay tai and really dont want to! What kind of martial arts background do you have Mr. Jimi? other than Kickboxing? I would love to know....not so I can tear you apart, but I just find it interesting thats it! And yes I know that their are people out there teaching just kickboxing and that is fine but really your teaching other martial arts styles, In a way to fight for sport! Are you not? Kicking was not created when kickboxing was created, and punching was not created when boxing was created! Go ahead and be "harsh" smore! I dont care for your personal opinion! Im here to learn and to talk to respectable martial artist.


----------



## Jimi

OK? Teach well best of luck. PEACE


----------



## dungeonworks

AMP-RYU, I see what you are saying as I have ran across several schools in smokers I have done that do the very thing you are.  I have also seen schools dabble in it just for the learning experience and learn on the fly as they go, not unlike what many MMA guys/teams do (Alan Orr and his Wing Chun/MMA guys come to mind).  Speaking purely as an former FCR rules ametuer kickboxer, it is not uncommon and not without success.  At the smokers I did, we were matched up by number of fights and other claimed experience.  Most fighters at these smokers came from various styles of martial arts (if any) and boxing.  It was impossible to have a standard belt ranking.  In otherwords, it went by the honor system.  We still had pre fight physicals and an ambulance with paramedics at the ready and ametuer bouts had required fight gear such as head gear, foot/shin pads, and 12 oz gloves.  Also, a panel of 3 fight judges usually comprised of local longtime martial artists and former PKA kickboxers.  There was no USBA anything unless competitors were from a boxing gym and it was in their background.  Basically, if you passed the physical you could fight and they were open to anyone.  The cornermen and the equipment they brought had to be at certain requirements (number of corner people, bucket, towels..ect).

I think the major diconnect here is that some come up boxing first or in a kickboxing gym affiliated with a kickboxing governing body such as ISKA, KICK, PKA...ect.  All are quite different and have their own rules and regs. and requirements.  In fact, some are different enough to be another form of kickboxing altogether, which brings me to my point...kickboxing is a generalized term for full contact sport fighting using all four limbs and variants of them.  I am not familiar at all with governing body politics, but I can say that the kickboxing AMP-RYU describes is not uncommon, nor would (should) it be shot down because of no formal boxing training.  I think the boxing would greatly help, as it did for me, but I don't feel it is necessary.  Kerry Roop came right out of TKD and is a 5 time title holder.  Several guys out there came from similar roots.

Like that guy in "Meet the Parents saidL:



> JESUS FOKKER, IT'S JUST A GAME!!! :ultracool


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

The studio I work out at has a Muay Boran program there...the non-sportive mother art of Muay Thati. They have a ranking structure in place, but based moe on titles and pieces of rope and stuff, not gi's and belts.


----------



## Jimi

My question is, how many out there believe that Black Belt Rank in Karate, TKD or another art qualifies you to prepare someone for Amateur or Pro Full Contact? Not saying Karate & TKD people can not kick or punch hard (That was never my assertion)


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Jimi said:


> My question is, how many out there believe that Black Belt Rank in Karate, TKD or another art qualifies you to prepare someone for Amateur or Pro Full Contact? Not saying Karate & TKD people can not kick or punch hard (That was never my assertion)


 
Different animals. Can't prepare for a marathon by doing push-ups; you gotta get out and run. Traditional martial arts training may prepare one for whatever contexts a given art focuses on. But the only way to prep for ring play is to drill in the relative skills sets.


----------



## Jimi

[quote Kerry Roop came right out of TKD and is a 5 time title holder.  Several guys out there came from similar roots.[/quote]

I respect that people with a TKD background that have been very successful in Full Contact. That is a great achievement. Trimble, Eddie Butcher lesser known names than Bill Wallace & Joe Lewis etc... all had Karate or TKD backgrounds. I just think that being a Black Belt does not automaticaly prepare someone to handle a Full Contact Fighters corner. This (Cornering) in my opinion is critical for the fighters success & safety. North American Kickboxing (Kicks above the waist) is a punishing sport to compete in no doubt. I believe that training & experience in Boxing is a definite plus. Again, Is Black Belt rank equal to Full Contact Coach? Some assoc's like Joe Lewis' train people for Full Contact & have the training & experience for preparing fighters for Full Contact, although I believe that a Black Belt rank from a former Champ like Joe Lewis is not the same as other Black Belt ranks, his ring experience goes beyond that of the typical BB due to his training in Boxing & working with Full Contact Amateur & Pro Assoc's. I hope I am being understood.


----------



## dungeonworks

Jimi said:


> [quote Kerry Roop came right out of TKD and is a 5 time title holder.  Several guys out there came from similar roots.



I respect that people with a TKD background that have been very successful in Full Contact. That is a great achievement. Trimble, Eddie Butcher lesser known names than Bill Wallace & Joe Lewis etc... all had Karate or TKD backgrounds. I just think that being a Black Belt does not automaticaly prepare someone to handle a Full Contact Fighters corner. This (Cornering) in my opinion is critical for the fighters success & safety. North American Kickboxing (Kicks above the waist) is a punishing sport to compete in no doubt. I believe that training & experience in Boxing is a definite plus. Again, Is Black Belt rank equal to Full Contact Coach? Some assoc's like Joe Lewis' train people for Full Contact & have the training & experience for preparing fighters for Full Contact, although I believe that a Black Belt rank from a former Champ like Joe Lewis is not the same as other Black Belt ranks, his ring experience goes beyond that of the typical BB due to his training in Boxing & working with Full Contact Amateur & Pro Assoc's. I hope I am being understood.[/quote]

You are preaching to the choir here.  Blackbelt status in reality is relative to speciffic styles and moreover, speciffic schools.  To clarify what I meant in my post is that AMP-RYU has a group/class going and is applying it in whatever venues he and his crew compete in, and assumingly these are kickboxing smokers or similar events.  I respect that and if he is seeking his own way of doing so such as focusing on leg techniques with the strategy of not getting hit, which I read as he is trying to teach his guys to get hit minmally....that is not unlike most striking sports/styles.  I didn't read anywhere where he stated that he teaches them to never get hit, which anyone that has sparred full or even medium contact is shown the truth of that reality, that it is impossible to not ever get hit.

I do see your point on the importance of having a competent corner man, and if AMP-RYU fights or has fought a few times at least, I think he will know when to toss in the towel for his fighters even at the expense of upsetting his guys.  I agree with you that a blackbelt alone is not a sole and complete skill for cornering a kickboxer and think the quoted post above is a great and very valid point.


----------



## Jimi

I agree 100%. I believe that great Kickboxers (North American Kickboxing or Eastern Kickboxing) can come from a Karate & TKD background. I believe my questions about cornering experience & Amateur assoc's offended AMP-RYU's sensibilities. I told him he would hate me for my opinion (I was right). I do agree that depending on the Assoc's (Such a Joe Lewis') that Black Belt rank CAN be quite sufficient for fielding a Full Contact Fighter, just not a BB from any Assoc's are the same as Former Champ Joe Lewis'. I do agree depending on the Assoc's history, a Black Belt can be rank for Kickboxing. Even Bando does it, and we work thru state athletic commisions for sanctioned bouts. I just don't think that BB rank alone & letting students bang away Full Force is equal to Kickboxing like Joe Lewis' carrer. Thanks for the discussion Dungeonworks.


----------



## AMP-RYU

[/quote]You are preaching to the choir here. Blackbelt status in reality is relative to speciffic styles and moreover, speciffic schools. To clarify what I meant in my post is that AMP-RYU has a group/class going and is applying it in whatever venues he and his crew compete in, and assumingly these are kickboxing smokers or similar events. I respect that and if he is seeking his own way of doing so such as focusing on leg techniques with the strategy of not getting hit, which I read as he is trying to teach his guys to get hit minmally....that is not unlike most striking sports/styles. I didn't read anywhere where he stated that he teaches them to never get hit, which anyone that has sparred full or even medium contact is shown the truth of that reality, that it is impossible to not ever get hit. I do see your point on the importance of having a competent corner man, and if AMP-RYU fights or has fought a few times at least, I think he will know when to toss in the towel for his fighters even at the expense of upsetting his guys. I agree with you that a blackbelt alone is not a sole and complete skill for cornering a kickboxer and think the quoted post above is a great and very valid point.[/quote]

This is all Im trying to say. Thank you dungeon! I have a sport class and we compete in full contact events. Nothing professionally sanctioned or any thing like that. Im not saying that I couldnt get sanctioning if I wanted it, but I dont. My students have never asked n or wanted to be professional fighters, all they want is to be a part of something. And they are! My guys/girls are good and can fight, and of course I know when to throw the towel in if needed. Hey I have tried "boxing" before...believe me I have. But I couldnt keep my feet on the ground, So I went back to what I like which is a kicking sport.


----------



## Tez3

*kickboxing smokers* or similar events

What are they?


----------



## jarrod

Tez3 said:


> *kickboxing smokers* or similar events
> 
> What are they?


 
they are informal, usually unsanctioned events...you show up, they match you with someone around you weight & hopefully experience, & you have a fight.  they are a popular way for boxers & kicboxers to gain experience, though it's not as common with mma.

jf


----------



## dungeonworks

jarrod said:


> they are informal, usually unsanctioned events...you show up, they match you with someone around you weight & hopefully experience, & you have a fight.  they are a popular way for boxers & kicboxers to gain experience, though it's not as common with mma.
> 
> jf



It is up this way Jarrod.  In MI amatuer fights are done this way.  Up until recently, amatuer is all that MMA guys had since pro santioning is less than a year old up here.  It was that way at the XXXtreme fights I went to in Goshen Indiana too.


----------



## jarrod

there's too much money in amateur mma around here for the promoters to let it be wasted on smokers.  the only difference between pro & am in rules is that the ammeys can't use elbows.  so promoters get all these amateurs to fight in big shows; they put on the same fight as pros pretty much & all they pay them is a percentage of the tickets they sell themselves.  i try to tell my guys not to bother fighting local mma until they want to fight pro, so far they start out amateur though.

jf


----------



## Jimi

One of my long time friends Brooks Miller (Khun Kao), the VA State Director of Amateur Muay Thai (Not a Black Belt) holds smokers in the DC area. He has recently set up a full Muay Thai rules event, I believe in april. Look into Khun Kao Promotions. Cool stuff. On a side note, I never insisted anyone has to be Pro sanctioned to fight full contact, although Amateur events that are sanctioned have better referees, cornering training, ring side doctors & even insurance. I believe this is a good thing for the fighters. When I was involved in the USABF & the USJA I was required to pay a membership fee of about $40-$45 a year for membership (This was over a decade ago mind you), this included insurance coverage at events, in training & even on the way to a from training. I was surprised to find out that this insurance would cover me in a vehicle accident on the way to train. That is DAMN good coverage for a fighter. So yes I side with the Amateur Sanctioning Bodies for Full Contact. If someone choses not to, that is their perogative. Again I hope my opinion is being heard. JIMI


----------



## AMP-RYU

Jimi said:


> One of my long time friends Brooks Miller (Khun Kao), the VA State Director of Amateur Muay Thai (Not a Black Belt) holds smokers in the DC area. He has recently set up a full Muay Thai rules event, I believe in april. Look into Khun Kao Promotions. Cool stuff. On a side note, I never insisted anyone has to be Pro sanctioned to fight full contact, although Amateur events that are sanctioned have better referees, cornering training, ring side doctors & even insurance. I believe this is a good thing for the fighters. When I was involved in the USABF & the USJA I was required to pay a membership fee of about $40-$45 a year for membership (This was over a decade ago mind you), this included insurance coverage at events, in training & even on the way to a from training. I was surprised to find out that this insurance would cover me in a vehicle accident on the way to train. That is DAMN good coverage for a fighter. So yes I side with the Amateur Sanctioning Bodies for Full Contact. If someone choses not to, that is their perogative. Again I hope my opinion is being heard. JIMI


 
Seriously you opinion really doesnt mean anything to anyone here! I also hold insurance on all my students and fighters and it also covers them on their way and from my school and in tournaments as well. Ok so if no one who trains kickboxers have a background in martial arts...who teaches them correct technique when kicking? Isnt this the same as having no experience in boxing? Im confused..You claim that a kickboxer cant be trained by a martial artist because no boxing background, but what about the other variable in kickboxing....the "KICK". Oh I guess it is ok for a boxing instructor to teach kicks to a kickboxer without a martial arts background. Your just one of those people who believe that your right and no one else can do anything because it is not your way! Also what makes sanctioned referees "BETTER"? Its just another way for someone else to get their hands in where they really dont need to be all the time!


----------



## Jimi

Lighten up. You are the one throwing around assertions. You are saying that I am not a Martial Artist. Why, because I do have a background in Boxing & Kickboxing? I also hold 1st, 2nd & 3rd degree Black Belts in Karate & TKD. I am a Certified Black Belt in ABA Bando. I also have a 2nd Degree Black Belt In Kenbo. That is Martial Arts. You are the one not showing respect here. Ask the Mods or other Members if they think my opinion means nothing. Ask them if I am out of line with posting my opinions.


----------



## exile

Folks, everyone understands that people develop strong feelings about MA matters&#8212;but one of the virtues of Martial Talk as a discussion board is that people are encouraged to express their views strongly, but in a civil fashion, so that light is generated and heat is kept to a minimum. Please let's try to maintain that kind of discourse in this thread&#8212;reason and well-thought-out argumentation are still the best ways to persuade people that yours is the right position. Getting hot under the collar does nothing but, um, get the Mods kind of _alert_, you know?


----------

