# What Happened to Courtesy?



## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

I've noticed on other martial arts forums some of the members are just downright rude.  It seems so strange to me because in addition to learning martial arts we were always taught to be respectful to one another.  Did your respective teachers instill these ideas in you like mine did with me?

Some of these rude people are quite well established instructors with scores of students.  How could they get to that level professionally with such arrogant and rude behavior?


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## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2012)

I wouldnt know - Im generally a respectful person, if I do say so Myself.

The problem is that most of the time, Theyre insecure, or utterly convinced Theyre right. For both, being Hostile and self-sure is a way of burying Their head in the sand and saying "la la la".

Of course, tensions sometimes rise. But I know what kind of stuff Youre talking about.


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## terryl965 (Mar 22, 2012)

You must remember alot of school do not have tenets anymore they are money driven. When the all mighty dollar takes over respect, courtesy goes out the window...


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

Perhaps I am naive but I always thought courtesy was also good business.  It's a hallmark of professionalism.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2012)

For some, the courtesy shown in the dojang never leaves the dojang. It's something they _do_ rather than something they _are_.

For others, it's simply that they cannot express themselves well in writing. Lacking the facial expressions and body language that we're all accustomed to, it's easy for something that - face to face - is clearly meant in a joking or teasing manner to be taken as insulting or rude. Emoticons are really an inadequate replacement.

And for some, it's simply that interactions over the net are not "real" and they display behaviour totally at odds with their "real" persona.

And there are some who were never taught the value of courtesy in the first place.

Here, the staff puts in a lot of time trying to keep things friendly. I don't think other sites do. A lot of the time it has got to be compared to herding cats, or being a playground supervisor, but ultimately it's worthwhile.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 22, 2012)

Ultimately the instructor/school owner has full reign to do what they please.  IF they got to this position without internalizing or fully understanding what proper conduct, etiquette, and/or philosophy, then they can either throw it out the window or pass on a perverted interpretation/meaning of those aspects of martial arts.  

I know it's the movies, but Kreese Sensei from the original Karate Kid was the perfect example of the antithesis of proper conduct, etiquette and martial philosophy.  **Even if he did have some of the best one liners in the movie**


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 22, 2012)

Our goals always been to be overall friendly. Finding a balance has been tough. We try to be accessible to most folks, which sometimes bothers people used to either a stricter or loser moderation.  To name 2 places, SwordForum is a bit more 'stay on topic' and Bullshido more an 'anything goes'. We're neither. It's been a real challenge to our members and mods alike at times.  My 'vision' for MT has been that 'after class, putting your shoes back on, chatting' feel.  Sure, some parts of the site are more focused, and The Study can get hot and passionate at times, but overall, I think we've hit the goal more than we've missed. The majority of the feedback I hear agrees.
As to why people do what they do, it's the impersonality of the online world.  Most people seem to like using handles (I did for years), and there's a sense of anonymity there that some people find 'freeing'. Other times it's the not-in-person nature. Both let them say things they normally would have the restraint to hold back. It happens to the best of us sometimes....things get heated, you say something a little harder than you normally would, hit enter and leave.  An hour later you've cooled off, but too late. I think its the same sort of things that make normally sane people crazy drivers after someone cuts them off. You feel 'untouchable' and your brain goes 'poof'.

The herding cats reference above is fitting...sometimes I feel that's what we do.   Things get heated, we post some generic notices, and our inboxes light up with profanity, threats and bluster. All we did was say 'hey, ya'll keep it calm hmm?', and suddenly someones acting like we sent a Seal Team to their door.    All we can do is point at our rules, ask compliance and if we don't get it show people to the door. We can't make them act mature.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Our goals always been to be overall friendly. Finding a balance has been tough. We try to be accessible to most folks, which sometimes bothers people used to either a stricter or loser moderation.  To name 2 places, SwordForum is a bit more 'stay on topic' and Bullshido more an 'anything goes'. We're neither. It's been a real challenge to our members and mods alike at times.  My 'vision' for MT has been that 'after class, putting your shoes back on, chatting' feel.  Sure, some parts of the site are more focused, and The Study can get hot and passionate at times, but overall, I think we've hit the goal more than we've missed. The majority of the feedback I hear agrees.
> As to why people do what they do, it's the impersonality of the online world.  Most people seem to like using handles (I did for years), and there's a sense of anonymity there that some people find 'freeing'. Other times it's the not-in-person nature. Both let them say things they normally would have the restraint to hold back. It happens to the best of us sometimes....things get heated, you say something a little harder than you normally would, hit enter and leave.  An hour later you've cooled off, but too late. I think its the same sort of things that make normally sane people crazy drivers after someone cuts them off. You feel 'untouchable' and your brain goes 'poof'.
> 
> The herding cats reference above is fitting...sometimes I feel that's what we do.   Things get heated, we post some generic notices, and our inboxes light up with profanity, threats and bluster. All we did was say 'hey, ya'll keep it calm hmm?', and suddenly someones acting like we sent a Seal Team to their door.    All we can do is point at our rules, ask compliance and if we don't get it show people to the door. We can't make them act mature.



That's because you and all your staff are poopie heads and booger eaters....

On  the issue of handles....
In this day, I think a lot of people are somewhat hesitant to put their real names out there. Personally, I don't care one way or another. One of the first forums I ever used (after I gave up on USENET...) was a 4x4 site (http://www.4x4trails.net). A group of friends, mostly EMS, ER and LEO who knew each other through the hospital, did a lot of jeeping together. I started calling us the Dirty Dogs, and used it as a handle. Since then, it's just become habit. I also use Off_Road_RN on YouTube and Skype. 
I've always been willing to give out my real name when asked, except when the asker has already given me reason to think they're...odd...
It's just a nickname, ultimately, whether used online or face to face.


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## jks9199 (Mar 22, 2012)

Regarding nicknames/handles...  I use one for a simple reason.  Some years back, when AOL was actually a decent place to go... there was a Police/Public Safety community there.  I initially used my real name; I had nothing to hide or worry about, right?  Then a somewhat disturbed individual began making trouble for another police officer because of an online conflict.  Not good; he had to defend what he was doing in his own time, completely legally.  Fortunately -- his bosses were understanding about it.  But that's when I switched to a handle.  I generally use the same one; you can find me in other places if you look.  That's my nod to consistency.

Of late, there's another reason.  I'm here as ME, not as Officer JKS9199 of the WhereIWork PD.  My comments here are my own.  Using a handle, the chances of confusion or misunderstanding go down.  Means I'm not in the chief's office to explain something I spouted off about here.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 22, 2012)

Which is part of why we allow them, and don't have a 'sign your name' or 'real names only' policy.  We ask for names at registration, but those are kept confidential unless you choose to make them visible (which is why there are 2 name and 2 location fields). We use them mostly for anti-bot purposes (Most bots register as Harry25 or some other gibberish, or fill in the art field with 'bottony') and almost never ask for proof (we've discussed doing verified accounts but it's a lot of extra time, and expense, with minimal return in our opinion).  I know other sites do the 'real names only' policy, but unless they are actually using an ID verification service, or some system of personal validation (IE I'm trusted, so if I say you're John Smith, you're John Smith, not Harry Bloomers).


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## Steve (Mar 22, 2012)

My name really is Steve, but I feel no real pressure to be polite.  Just saying.  I'm a generally polite person, and frankly kind of a softy, but I don't see any benefit to being polite over honest on a public forum.  While I might soften the tone somewhat, that's secondary to being clear.


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## shesulsa (Mar 22, 2012)

To me the practice of politeness is like the practice of anything, you get better at it with practice ... and I'm convinced that sometimes good manners can save your life.  

I also happen to think that while we work so very hard on training ruthlessness, directness, violence and all that other badass stuff, that by fostering manners, consideration, compassion and benevolence we keep ourselves in balance, hence it becomes easier to keep one's head in more situations.

That's just my opinion.


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

Steve said:


> My name really is Steve, but I feel no real pressure to be polite.  Just saying.  I'm a generally polite person, and frankly kind of a softy, but I don't see any benefit to being polite over honest on a public forum.  While I might soften the tone somewhat, that's secondary to being clear.



Your picture doesn't look like a Steve. LOL


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## Steve (Mar 23, 2012)

That's actually my youngest, pretending to play halo with her big brother.  I like the picture.


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## Gemini (Mar 23, 2012)

I stopped using my real name because I don't want it coming up on a search any more than it has to. While I don't really try very hard to limit it, I don't intentionally feed it either. Anyone who wants my real full name is welcome to it just by asking, but not in a post where it's going to just show up years from now.

As for respect, I have to say Diry Dog nailed it and I have nothing to add, but Shesulsa spoke best to my opinion on it. Practice. You only have everything to gain by mastering the ability to engage. While I may not always be the friendliest individual, I do try to always be respectful. I've found that the nicer you are to people that attack you the more it pisses them off, and they end up looking like the *** they are. I know my logic is a bit backwards, but that's just who I am. When I am unsuccessful, I view it as a personal failure. It's a life study. The hardest for me to deal with are those that feel they've earned the right to be condescending. Unfortunately as mentioned above, many of those that have escalated to a higher level somehow feel they've earned the right to be so, which to me is one of the worst character traits any person can exhibit and my tolerance for dealing such bottom feeders is extremely limited. More practice.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 23, 2012)

We had someone pop in here and immediately start dumping on people outside his org. The usual stuff, 'trained since the Ice Age, personal student of God himself, only my stuff dont stink', and when we tried to calm him down got the 'do you know who I am' and 'do you know who I know' bluster back.

I see some people nodding knowingly. He gets around doesn't he? Different faces, different arts, but seems like the same guy hmm? 

My take on all this is a simple one.

'do you know who I am'?
Why yes I do. You are a self-inflated egomaniac who can't function unless someone's kissing your feet. We don't do that here. 10th dan, 100th dan, Moses himself, we don't care who you are if you can't follow our rules and behave like an adult.  Stomp your feet enough, you'll active the trap door and find yourself outside looking in.

'do you know who I know'?
Nope. Don't care either.  We suspended the owner here once or twice. If we'll put his *** on ice, what makes you think you're special?  

'I've been training since you were born'.
That's nice. Your skills aren't in question. Your behavior and attitude are.

'I'm a 600 time world champion'.
Great. We're not questioning that. Your behaviors that of a 6,000 year old cave man, that's the problem.

'Your site sucks, you're all little kittens.'
Meow to you too sir. 

And so forth.

Once a month.....for 10 years now....almost regularly.....


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## Instructor (Mar 23, 2012)

Oh man it's "That Guy".  I've met "That Guy".  Never be "That Guy".


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## Jenna (Mar 23, 2012)

Steve said:


> My name really is Steve, but I feel no real pressure to be polite.  Just saying.  I'm a generally polite person, and frankly kind of a softy, but I don't see any benefit to being polite over honest on a public forum.  While I might soften the tone somewhat, that's secondary to being clear.


I think you do a good job of both.  I think it is possible to be polite and courteous in disagreement.

I worry that the level of anonymity which is possible online seems not only to bring out the primal "me first" attitude and but it also I think encourages the natural bully, cliquishness and antipathy in those that are disposed to it.  I do not understand why this happens so much on MA sites though?  Most martial artists that I have ever met in real life are the most courteous and decent people I have ever known.  I would have a fellow martial artist have my back in a situation over anyone else.  And still when online (and I include mobile phone activities too), it all goes out the window and a certain hostile clique and group dynamic takes over.

I do not know why this is???

There is not much of it here.  Why is that also??  

I like it here for that reason.


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