# weight training for martial arts?



## TallAdam85 (Jun 29, 2003)

Hello I have seen in some martial arts books some say people should work out to improve the martial arts and other books say the time you spend in the gym is a waste cause it is time you could be training. So what do you guys think about this? And do if you do work out how? Life for power or for speed?

Lets hear what you got to say people  :asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 29, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## andurilking2 (Sep 2, 2003)

i do both, in the gym i do mostly leg training though i find weight training helps both power and speed, the power more dramatically than training but i train more still for i find it more beneficial i only spend about 2-3 days a week in the gym and only for a few hours a week (usually 3-4 hours a week) whereas i spend roughly 20+ hours a week with ma training.
some people are different but i have found this method to work for me
hope it helps.


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## lvwhitebir (Sep 3, 2003)

People have said the same thing about other sports too.  For instance, they felt that weight lifting was wrong for tennis players because it would slow them down or take them away from practice.  It's been shown to be hogwash.  Nearly all pro atheletes do some sort of strength and cardiovascular training and it's shown to improve their game, even in sports where hundredths of a second count.

Fitness is defined as having three components: cardiovascular endurance, strength, and flexibility.  If these are a part of your martial arts workout, fine, but I find it more beneficial to keep them somewhat separated.  This allows me to concentrate on the aspect I'm trying to achieve.  I also have more options because I can alter the routine for my body type allowing for greater gains.

WhiteBirch


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## liangzhicheng (Sep 3, 2003)

Since I practice (or try to ) Tai Chi, I do not weight train.  It's hard enough as it is to relax the muscles without performing an activity that tenses my muscles.  However, in training an "external" art, I don't think it's bad to weight train.  Just take the Shaolin monks for example.  Some of their training involves using weights, though not exactly like doing a bench press.


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## pknox (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by liangzhicheng _
> *Just take the Shaolin monks for example.  Some of their training involves using weights, though not exactly like doing a bench press. *



True.  And there is a long history of manipulating weighted objects in Okinawan Karate as well.

http://www.portaskarate.org/weights.html


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## KenpoMatt (Sep 3, 2003)

> ...other books say the time you spend in the gym is a waste cause it is time you could be training



I would definitely disagree with this sentiment. The simple fact that MA's do push-ups in class shows that strenght training is a basic an integral part of training. 

I believe that the best case is to train for power AND for speed. One common approach would be to go on a "bulk-up" period of 3-4 months. The focus is on gaining mass. high weights, low reps etc.

Then, you can go on a "cut" period of 3-4 months low weights, high reps. The focus is on dexterity and muscle tone.

Keep the cycle going and eventually you're gonna have one mean physique.

That's what I think anyway...


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## kenpo2dabone (Sep 3, 2003)

I think that proper weight training will only help and not hinder your martial arts though I don't feal that it is necessary part of being a good or even great Martial Artist. There are lots of ways to improve muscle mass, tone and increase flexability without ever lifting a weight. Spending a half hour every day doing push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, heavy bag work and stretching is more than sufficient for gaining upper body strength, speed and agility. For your legs, I would recomend shuttle running, phantom chairs, lunges, jogging, and lots of stretching. Going to the Gym and lifting, in my opinion is easier than what I said above because you can adjust the amount of weight or resistance much easier. This is the way that I choose to train because I have more control over the amount of weight that I lift. 


Salute,
Mike Miller UKF


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## pknox (Sep 3, 2003)

Very true, Mike.  About the only downside of bodyweight exercises I can see is that you have to be able to lift at least a reasonable portion of your bodyweight to start, so if you are extremely unfit you may not be able to perform them even in limited form.  For example, if you are a very unfit 145 pound person, you may not be able to do even 1 pushup on your knees, but you can probably bench at least 5 or 10 pounds.  Once you get your strength up, you can begin to use BW exercises.  The classic example for this is pullups.  Plenty of people can't even do one, but how many people have you seen that can't at least pull the bar down on the lat pulldown machine? 

Personally, I do both.  Weights are great for raw strength, and are definitely more measurable in terms of progress, but I've always felt that BW exercises help me build agility and coordination as well.  But that's just me.


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## stickarts (Sep 3, 2003)

I have found weight training to be a tremendous benefit in my striking power, and overall confidence. i stretch in between sets and i  lift using full ranges of motion. it is a good supplement to training although there is no substitute for the sparring, self defense, etc..


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## Kempojujutsu (Sep 3, 2003)

I tend to do more of a wrestling workout with the weights. instead of a body building program. Lot of back, triceps, wrist and leg workouts. Also grappling alot, makes you work everything at once plus you get a cardio workout also. Side note when I lift, I don't take breaks alot. Maybe a 10-20 second break then start lifting again. I only lift for 45-60 minutes.
Bob  :asian:


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## OULobo (Sep 4, 2003)

Training practices should be fitted to what you are training for. I lean towards the notion that, if you want to do anything well, then just do that thing a lot. It works on a basic physiological sense, in an educational sense even an internal meditation sense. I do extra cardio and weights because of reasons other than martial arts, like wieght control, blood pressure, everyday usefull strength and looks (vanity). If these things don't mean much to you then just so some calistenics to keep your everyday fitness, health and life skills up and put a lot of time in at your MA school to hone your self-defence physical and mental skills.


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## Kroy (Sep 24, 2003)

I love weight training just as much as my martial arts I just find that I have to streatch alot more.


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## MountainSage (Sep 25, 2003)

The way most people weight train is bad for their MA.  Lifting like a body builder is only mildly improving a person ability with general strength and conditioning gains.  Before someone get a rope to hang me,  body building type lifting isolate muscle groups to train them for size and strength, yet the MA uses multiple muscle group to complete even the most basic skill.  As a result, IMHO, weight training should be done using something like Olympic lifts, that require the use of multiple muscle groups in a single movment.  MAs also require the strengthing of many small secondary muscles throught the body that aren't normally used and not improved through usual body building type workouts.  I am a firm believer in very traditional strength train, lifting objects, running with objects, throwing object , etc.  I must put one caveat on my statements, because I am a self employed farmer, I have the opportunity to train more traditionally than other people that have real jobs in cities.

Mountainsage


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## lvwhitebir (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *The way most people weight train is bad for their MA.  Lifting like a body builder is only mildly improving a person ability with general strength and conditioning gains.  Before someone get a rope to hang me,  body building type lifting isolate muscle groups to train them for size and strength, yet the MA uses multiple muscle group to complete even the most basic skill.  As a result, IMHO, weight training should be done using something like Olympic lifts, that require the use of multiple muscle groups in a single movment.  *



I disagree about the isolation lifting.  All of the bodybuilding books and magazines that I've seen emphasize compound exercises (exercises the use a variety of muscle) for building bulk and strength, especially for beginners.  They only recommend isolation exercises when you're trying to really cut the muscle.  Bodybuilders have to sculpt and refine each individual muscle, that's why they isolate after they've gained enough bulk.  I doubt isolation exercises will diminish any MA ability, but they probably won't help as much as compound exercises for functional strength.

Is there a specific isolation exercise that you're referring to?  I can't think of any that would hinder you.

Just about every activity and sport uses multiple muscle groups.  I don't regard the martial arts as any different.  As long as you perform your cardiovascular exercises as well as stretch, weight training can only improve what you have.  That's been shown time and time again in just about every sport you can think of, from wrestling to sprinting and yes even figure skating.

WhiteBirch


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## Kroy (Sep 25, 2003)

I also add activities like swimming and rock climbing, I find that they build muscles you never knew you had.


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## MountainSage (Sep 25, 2003)

Ivwhitebr,
Good follow-up questions.  Had to think about this one.  Here's two example that I came up with, a bicep curl is designed to isolate the bicep and tricep only if done correctly; there are few, if any, example of the same motion being used in the martial arts, maybe a hammer curl, but not a "regualr" bicep curl.  Even a hammer curl if done correctly will active many more muscle than the bicep/tricep.  The bench press when done with free weights or machine isolates the upper body when punching require a total body involvement.  This may not be the best example, yet I hope it does get the general idea I'm trying to get across.

Mountainsage


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## Shiatsu (Sep 25, 2003)

For more of a athlete type of workout go to crossfit.com   their workouts are great for functional strength, without the bodybuilding type of routine.


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## Cruentus (Sep 25, 2003)

I bodybuild, and I avidly promote it to help your MA training. The idea that you'll get slower, or that you'll lose flexability, and other urban legands simply aren't true. You don't have to just lift for size for one, and for two if you continue training your M.A., then weightlifting will be an enhancement and not a hinderance. If you quit M.A. for 3 years to bodybuild, then this could become a hinderance because not only have you stopped training, but you now have new muscle that needs to become accustomed to your MA movements. However, you should be lifting in conjunction with your MA, not instead of it.

:asian:


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## lvwhitebir (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *Here's two example that I came up with, a bicep curl is designed to isolate the bicep and tricep only if done correctly; there are few, if any, example of the same motion being used in the martial arts
> ...
> The bench press when done with free weights or machine isolates the upper body when punching require a total body involvement. *



The biceps would be employed when your pulling something towards your body, such as going into a clinch or employing/escaping joint locks.  I agree that working the bicep probably won't help a punch.

The tricep is engaged when you push something away from your body, like the motion of a punch.  So I believe it would directly add to the power of your punch.

I agree that punches require more than just arm movements and require the use of multiple muscles.  But, if you add strength to one muscle group employed, I believe you add strength to the punch.  In a lot of compound movements, the weaker muscle will limit the amount of strength you show (like if one arms is stronger than the other and you're trying to bench press or do a pushup).  If you can isolate the particular muscles, you can work to improve them without the weaker muscle impacting it, and work the weaker muscle to strengthen it, too.

Some martial arts, such as grappling arts, do require a lot of muscle strength that wouldn't be as needed in striking arts.

WhiteBirch


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## MountainSage (Sep 26, 2003)

Ivwhitebir,
It seem we are have a discussion on wether to train the whole to improve the parts or train the parts to improve the whole.  I guess I'm a train the whole type person, takes less training time per session for me.
To those on this thread: I'm not against body building type weight training, IMO, there are more effective ways to weight train for MA.  A person must be comfortable in the way they train, so the individual will continue without great mental effort.

Mountainsage


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## lvwhitebir (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *It seem we are have a discussion on wether to train the whole to improve the parts or train the parts to improve the whole.
> ...
> A person must be comfortable in the way they train, so the individual will continue without great mental effort.*



Agreed on both counts.  There are a lot of people in both camps.  I guess everyone should choose the route that's best for them.  It always comes down to some sort of "strength" training is beneficial, whether you use external weights or your own bodyweight.  No one method will benefit everyone equally, as well as no single exercise will benefit everyone equally.  You have to find what best works for your body and your training goals.

WhiteBirch


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## HumbleStudent (Oct 5, 2003)

I'm new here guys and would appreciate your opinions.

I'm also new to MA and here is one thing I've been doing. As part of my workout I take a 2lb. (each) set of dumbells and do my basic MA techniques. Mainly reverse punches and blocks. I will only do a set untill my form starts suffering, then take a short rest and do the techniques without weights. This seems to help my speed and strength.

I stopped most of my weightlifting because I foung that being sore really slowed me down in class. When my shoulders were sore I could hardly throw a block!


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## MountainSage (Oct 5, 2003)

Using weights during basics is a subject that there are pro folk and con folks.  I do both with and without.  How I was taught was that the power comes from the hips, not the arms.  That generally makes the need for arms training secondary to hip and leg training.  If you like and feel that it help you overall, don't stop lifting, yet reduce lift time and weight.  It might be that you are overtraining particular muscles with lifting and MA in a given time period.

MountainSage


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## HumbleStudent (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *Using weights during basics is a subject that there are pro folk and con folks.  I do both with and without.  How I was taught was that the power comes from the hips, not the arms.  That generally makes the need for arms training secondary to hip and leg training.  If you like and feel that it help you overall, don't stop lifting, yet reduce lift time and weight.  It might be that you are overtraining particular muscles with lifting and MA in a given time period.
> 
> MountainSage *



Thanks for the reply!
My school (Kenpo) strongly stresses the hips as the power behind your strikes. For that reason I always (when practising with 2LB. weights) do my punching in a horse AND fighting stance . The fighting stance helps me concentrate more on hip movement.

As far as my workout, I now do almost entirely body weight exersizes. The only equipment I use is a jump rope and a curl/dip/pull up/leg raise/push up station, a cheap one made by Body By Jake.

I actually wrapped the dip station with padding and strapped a pad on the backboard and use this for striking! It's pretty neat , when I'm doing my punches the station will actually recoil or walk toward me, this helps me to practise moving in my stances....


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## pknox (Oct 5, 2003)

HumbleStudent:

One word of caution -- if you are punching with weights, take care to stop the punch short of fully extending your arms, or you risk possibly damaging your ligaments and tendons due to the added weight.  It is also possible to hyperextend the elbow joint.  So as not to develop the habit of short-arming your punches, I would also continue to train your punches at least as much without the weights, fully extending your arms.


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## HumbleStudent (Oct 5, 2003)

Thank You! I'll keep that in mind.


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## HumbleStudent (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HumbleStudent _
> *Thanks for the reply!
> My school (Kenpo) strongly stresses the hips as the power behind your strikes. For that reason I always (when practising with 2LB. weights) do my punching in a horse AND fighting stance . The fighting stance helps me concentrate more on hip movement.
> 
> ...



I also should have mentioned that I always go slow when punching with weights. I want to watch my form.


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## RCastillo (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TallAdam85 _
> *Hello I have seen in some martial arts books some say people should work out to improve the martial arts and other books say the time you spend in the gym is a waste cause it is time you could be training. So what do you guys think about this? And do if you do work out how? Life for power or for speed?
> 
> Lets hear what you got to say people  :asian: *



 I lift heavy. It's kinda hard for me to get outta that habit. Can't do w/o it!:asian:


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## pknox (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HumbleStudent _
> *I also should have mentioned that I always go slow when punching with weights. I want to watch my form. *



Actually, that is the best way, as it again reduces the stress on your ligaments and tendons.


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