# Lilyhammer, right meets left?



## billc (Feb 16, 2012)

I was over at the bighollywood site and there is a review of the netflix original show Lilyhammer on the first page.  This show is about an American gangster in the witness protection program who ends up in lilyhammer, Norway.  The reviewer, John Nolte, says the show is of course about a fish out of water, American gangster in Norway, but the show also highlights the cultural differences in a right, left viewpoint.  I haven't watched it yet, but it may be an interesting show.  I have a buddy from Norway, I'll ask him what he thinks of the portrayel of his country.  

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/j...for-liberty-loving-conservatives/#more-580372



> According to the show, the country of Norway is a Leftist&#8217;s wet dream. There&#8217;s national healthcare, and everything from hunting to building to creating a new business to getting a driver&#8217;s license is over-regulated to the point of absurdity. Worse still, the men have mostly been emasculated into sniveling, helpless do-gooders who believe in &#8220;conflict resolution,&#8221; the church of trash separation, and accepting the unacceptable when it comes to bureaucratic rules.
> The entire premise of &#8220;Lilyhammer&#8221; is to mock, ridicule, and undermine a nanny state that has all but destroyed human ingenuity and creativity. Johnny might be a gangster, but he&#8217;s an all-American gangster who has no patience for nonsense and who knows how to get things done. He also does something the eunuchs around him won&#8217;t &#8212; he&#8217;s chivalrous.





> That&#8217;s the kind show this is. In other words, it&#8217;s the kind of show you would never see produced here in America, because every episode revolves around our hero standing up for human liberty, masculinity and even nationalism. Every year Norway holds their own 4th of July, and when Johnny sees that his girlfriend&#8217;s son has written a speech about tolerance, peace, love, and multiculturalism &#8212; he tells the kid not to apologize for Norway, but to be proud of his country and to stand up for it. The end result is one of the series&#8217; highlights.


It sounds like a good time had by all.  I think if people watch this show, with a view to their own lives and dealing with an overly bureaucratic government, even the lefties may enjoy it.  I doubt it but there is always hope, after all, almost every show I watch on television has a left leaning perspective, so be brave and give it a view.  We'll compare notes...


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## billc (Feb 16, 2012)

I forgot to mention the actor in the show is the guy from the E street band who played silvio(?) on the sopranoes, the guy I guess who killed Adriana.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2012)

It's Lillehammer btw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer

It's a shame that some people have nothing better to do than disparage others, the Norwegians are _rightly _admired for their courage, their _independance_ and their character. It's a shame too that people believe right wing propaganda to the extent that they don't find the truth out for themselves.


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## Jenna (Feb 17, 2012)

Bill, I am not one for political left-right discourse and but having lived in Norway for a period, I would have to wholeheartedly disagree with the tone of the summary from that piece.

The prevailing politic is social-democratic, and is, like any other political variant, not without its flaws, its detractors (I hope nobody has forgotten the *horror of extreme right-wing murder Anders Breivik*!) and its mistakes however, the people of Norway are some of the most progressive, positive, warm welcoming and pleasant people I have ever met.  The culture is far more peaceful than anything I would encounter here in London - you can travel around at night, people drink and socialise in a wholly different atmosphere than we have here in North London and there is far less by way Saturday night violence that we get here and these are the tangible results of left-leaning politics there.  

My only point is to ask what is more important, the _reality _of life in a nation under a certain type of doctrine or the adoption of the opposite theory for purely idealistic reasons?  

Anyway, this is purely anecdotal experience.  I am not a political commentator, I just happen to like Norway  I wish you well.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2012)

Mmmm ... Nordic blondes ...  *twin* Nordic blondes ... oh, ahem, sorry :blush:.  Just reliving a teenage weekend when my best friends Swedish cousins came to stay {drifts off in a reverie} :lol:


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Mmmm ... Nordic blondes ... *twin* Nordic blondes ... oh, ahem, sorry :blush:. Just reliving a teenage weekend when my best friends Swedish cousins came to stay {drifts off in a reverie} :lol:




LOl, we regularly have Norwegian fighters come over on our shows, they are the male equivalant! Absolutely gorgeous and virile, try telling them their country stinks and you'll find out how 'weak' they are! As Jenna says the Norweigans are some of the nicest most decent peole going. There's no reason to rubbish them for political reasons.

Norway is a constitutional monarchy with the King as Head of State. He's also Colonel in Chief of our local regiment and comes across to see them quite often, our local town is also twinned with a Norway town so we have a lot of visits. The people of Norway as Jenna said are good people.


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## Jenna (Feb 17, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Mmmm ... Nordic blondes ...  *twin* Nordic blondes ... oh, ahem, sorry :blush:.  Just reliving a teenage weekend when my best friends Swedish cousins came to stay {drifts off in a reverie} :lol:


You had ABBA in your bedroom! I am envious 

Yes, unfortunately for all the sweet and modern positive (and handsome!) Norwegians there are also plenty of crackpot right-wing extremists such as Varg Vikernes and as you know Anders Breivik et al.  

The Norwegian black metal scene is one of many manifestations of this darker side of Norwegian culture.  When I was there, the non-musical fanatics were burning churches! and which was not so well reported over here.  

Like anywhere, Norway is not without its problems.  I do not know how what I am saying fits into the discussion of left-right, apologies.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2012)

Jenna said:


> You had ABBA in your bedroom! I am envious
> 
> Yes, unfortunately for all the sweet and modern positive (and handsome!) Norwegians there are also plenty of crackpot right-wing extremists such as Varg Vikernes and as you know Anders Breivik et al.
> 
> ...



You are proving that Norway is a country that is not as described in the OP! While not good burning churches is hardly the actions of the wimps described, it shows too that not all think alike, in fact it sounds like a democratic country with a range of thought and political beliefs.


There comes a point when this need to prove the left to be 'wrong' takes a downward spiralling descent into falsehood, insults and plain fantasy. Far from being a comedy it's becoming actually offensive.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 17, 2012)

Embracing a gangster as your standard of right-wing excellence?

Bill, I think you're unintentionally revealing a few things about your political outlook...


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2012)

Jenna said:


> You had ABBA in your bedroom! I am envious



Oh now you've gone and slipped Agnetha Faltskog into my head :lol:.




Jenna said:


> Like anywhere, Norway is not without its problems.  I do not know how what I am saying fits into the discussion of left-right, apologies.



That's a "quoted for truth" moment right there.  If more of us realised that more of the time then I reckon there'd be a lot more international harmony than there is presently.


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## granfire (Feb 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> LOl, we regularly have Norwegian fighters come over on our shows, they are the male equivalant! Absolutely gorgeous and virile, try telling them their country stinks and you'll find out how 'weak' they are! As Jenna says the Norweigans are some of the nicest most decent peole going. There's no reason to rubbish them for political reasons.
> 
> Norway is a constitutional monarchy with the King as Head of State. He's also Colonel in Chief of our local regiment and comes across to see them quite often, our local town is also twinned with a Norway town so we have a lot of visits. The people of Norway as Jenna said are good people.



Aside from sending me into the gal equivalent of Suke's moments....

The King of Norway is the Colonel in Chief of your local regiment?
(I am sure it has a lot to do with all them royals mixing it up, but do tell. That's really sort of weird. Weirder than having the King of Sweden be the Duke of a small dutchy in south west Germany)


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2012)

granfire said:


> Aside from sending me into the gal equivalent of Suke's moments....
> 
> The King of Norway is the Colonel in Chief of your local regiment?
> (I am sure it has a lot to do with all them royals mixing it up, but do tell. That's really sort of weird. Weirder than having the King of Sweden be the Duke of a small dutchy in south west Germany)



http://www.greenhowards.org.uk/norwegianlink.php

Also http://www.richmond.org/community/norwegian-twinning/index.html


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## billc (Feb 17, 2012)

Actually Tez, you are incorrect, the name of the show is "Lilyhammer," why the norwegians who make the show spelled it that way is something to take up with them, as is the social commentary on their country.  I saw the first two episodes, not bad.  

I don't embrace criminals empty hands, the show could just as easily have been about any American moving to Norway, but the interest in organized crime shows seems universal.  The conservative value of respect for the individual, and standing up to bullies, without hand wringing or apologies, is something you don't see a lot of in American television,  I wonder what is up with this Norwegian show.

Jenna, what makes the killer in Norway a "right-winger?"  I have had discussions like this with others so a new person to discuss this with would be nice.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2012)

billcihak said:


> Actually Tez, you are incorrect, the name of the show is "Lilyhammer," why the norwegians who make the show spelled it that way is something to take up with them, as is the social commentary on their country. I saw the first two episodes, not bad.
> 
> I don't embrace criminals empty hands, the show could just as easily have been about any American moving to Norway, but the interest in organized crime shows seems universal. The conservative value of respect for the individual, and standing up to bullies, without hand wringing or apologies, is something you don't see a lot of in American television, I wonder what is up with this Norwegian show.
> 
> Jenna, what makes the killer in Norway a "right-winger?" I have had discussions like this with others so a new person to discuss this with would be nice.



Well it just goes to show what a complete load of BS the whole thing is doesn't it when it can't even spell, cheap and insulting rubbish embraced by people who spell red backwards.
 The killer in Norway is a self confessed right winger.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 17, 2012)

Its a fiction TV show im not sure why everyones getting so worked up.  Tez you might like it you've never watched it how do you know its a complete load of BS.  I've never seen it myself so I can't say if its BS or not but I do know its NOT real so no reason to get all worked up over it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Its a fiction TV show im not sure why everyones getting so worked up. Tez you might like it you've never watched it how do you know its a complete load of BS. I've never seen it myself so I can't say if its BS or not but I do know its NOT real so no reason to get all worked up over it.



Of course you don't know why I get annoyed at Bili posts, he deliberately posts stuff up that are derogatory towards Europeans and to anyone who is to the left of him, which includes Maggie Thatcher btw. If he were European and saying these things about America and Americans wouldn't you be annoyed? All this nonsense about how the right are angels and the left devils and how the Nazis were leftists ( my mothers family were to the left, do you think they would have been spared death in the camps if the Nazis had also been left?). there is nothing he can't find to insult Europeans and the left with, films, television, healthcare, so called freedom, all are denigrated and mocked by him as being inferior to his precious right wing American dream. ( Now watch people say I'm anti American because I said that) I won't put him on ignore unlike some because I will always call BS on fascism and it's adherents, instead of just mouthing the words about freedom I believe in it, all these slures against the left, Europe, the UK and now Norway, why should they be left unchallenged? Bili posts these up to be insulting, I don't get insulted I will challenge it every time. I am still laughing at the idea of him lecturing someone from the former USSR on what is 'left' and how everything wrong in American colleges is the fault of the left. If that's so where is your freedom that you are dictated to by one side only? 
The programme may not be real but Bili's right wing twisting and turning certainly is, it wasn't posted as a critique on a television show it was posted in the Study as political comment, if you read his comments he's intending it as another slur on the left. Just get another little dig in there eh? he's not suggesting we watch the show with the intent of being amused, he's suggesting it as an indictment of Norway. This is the man who find political movements in Star Trek  and the Muppets film as communist propagandafor goodness sake.  As I said he goes to far, it's either deliberate slagging off of Europe or it's trolling in poor taste.


I think any programme that attracts the kind of reviews this one does certainly is BS.


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## granfire (Feb 17, 2012)

I think it's safe to assume that even Attila the Hun is left of billi....


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## Jenna (Feb 17, 2012)

To Bill, yes, I am not sure what the question is exactly.  Can you rephrase for me?  I am not au fait with political theory and I would usually defer to other people who have more of an interest  

Varg Vikernes espouses religious intolerance, racism and a plethora of neo-Nazi, anti-semitic, anti-Christian and anti-American sentiment.  I had heard him talking of Quisling too in a favourable way so you can see where his ideologies came from.  To my mind everyone is entitled to their views no matter how extreme I do not argue with that.  And but I think acting upon those predilections culminating in arson of churches and murder can never be condoned.  His propaganda and babblings are on the internet if you have the stomach for it.  The term used to describe someone who lives by these ideologies is far right or extreme right, yes?  My definition may not be the correct one and I may sound stupid.  If it is a trick question that is ok too  as political theory is not my thing I was only making an observation about the nature of life in Norway under a left-leaning government from the point of view of a girl who lived there for a time when she was younger (me)


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2012)

Jenna, your observastion by anyone other than Bili's standard's that this chap is indeed right wing, far right actually *is correct*. However Bili is going to come back and tell you that he is left wing. This is a Bili definition, he will also tell you that the Nazis are left wing and everything evil comes from socialism and the left wing. This is a common theme running through all his posts and I mean all, whatever the actual subject. 

Most people are patriotic, most have their political views however most of us don't feel the need to put down every other country as being inferior just so we can feel good about our country. You can see your country's faults, you can see where things are wrong but you can still feel tremendous pride in your country _because it is your country_, there's no pride in thinking you are only better because evryone else is crap. You don't have to make things up about other's political views, you don't have to belittle them, tell lies about them, malign them, you can oppose them honestly and truthfully. Point out where *you* *think *they are wrong but don't blame them for every bad thing under the sun. All this sniping at Europeans and at people who lean to the left, all the insults and downright lies belittles only the person doing it. As with Sean Penn, opening your mouth and showing your ignorance does you no favours.


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## billc (Feb 17, 2012)

Tez, you keep saying I said Thatcher was a socialist, I keep saying I think you misinterpreted someone elses post on that.  Why do I continue to talk about Europe and what goes on there?  The simple reason is that politicians on the left, in our democrat party, love everything European and want to bring all of it here to America.  They love your high taxes, your mass transit system, your national healthcare, your policies on free speech, your gun control policies, and I want people to know what that would mean if they succeed. 

The President of the U.S. thinks our constitution didn't go far enough in giving redistributionist powers to the government.
5 of 9 supreme court justices believed it was okay for the government to take private property from one individual  and give it to another individual, if it would increase the tax revenue to that government body.
2 of the supreme court justices look at foreign law to justify their decisions on our constitution and Ginsberg suggests that new democracies look to the constitution of south africa, instead of the U.S. constitution to set up their governments.

As Mark Steyn points out about British healthcare, it came about at a time when the corruption was not as damaging to the healthcare system.  When we adopt European style healthcare, and the democrats can't wait for it,  our system will be filled with corruption from the start.

Those are some of the reasons I point out the problems with Europe, too many American politicians want your lifestyle over here.

The nazis and communists are both socialists.  That they fought and killed each other is not a surprise, it was a struggle for power and control.


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## billc (Feb 17, 2012)

Jenna, the nazis were socialists and were really left wingers, as Tez points out, that is the truth.  The national socialists differed from the international socialists in that they wanted their brand of socialism for Germans, and didn't care about socialism for other countries.  These are not just my opinions, I have a lot of writings on this from knowlegeable people in various fields of study.

To me, an American, right wing conservative, right wing here in the states means the belief in a small, limited government, hedged in by checks and balances to control the governments power over individuals.  A right wing conservative believes in the American Bill of Rights, and believes in individual freedom and rights.

The reason I believe that the Norway killer was a far "left" winger is that if you look at what he likely believed, he didn't believe in a small government, or the protection of the individual from the government.  

I always ask why people call someone a "right winger," because most of the time the answer is what Tez says.  They are because everyone knows they are.  In your answer you mentioned "neo-nazi," the nazis were socialists and they were left wing, so if someone claims nazi beliefs, they are socialists and left wing.  I have some articles I'll post on this, the regular readers have already seen them, but you might see that my claims are not just made up.  There is scholarly research that supports it.

http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/hitler-was-a-socialist/



> Mussolinis _fascism_ was a state socialism that was explicitly anti-Marx and aggressively nationalistic. Hitlers _National Socialism_ was state socialism at its worse. It not only shared the socialism of fascism, but was explicitly racist.  In this it differs from the state socialism of Burma today, and that of some African and Arab dictatorships.
> Two prevailing historical myths that the left has propagated successfully is that Hitler was a far right wing conservative and was democratically elected in 1933 (a blow at bourgeois  democracy and conservatives).  Actually, he was defeated twice in the national elections (he became chancellor in a smoke-filled-room appointment by those German politicians who thought they could control him  see What? Hitler Was Not Elected?) and as head of the National Socialist German Workers Party, he considered himself a socialist, and was one by the evidence of his writings and the his economic policies.
> To be clear, National Socialism differs from Marxism in its nationalism, emphasis on folk history and culture, idolization of the leader, and its racism. But the Nazi and Marxist-Leninists shared a faith in government, an absolute ruler,  totalitarian control over all significant  economic and social matters for the good of the working man, concentration camps, and genocide/democide as an effective government policy (only in his last years did Stalin plan for his own Holocaust of the Jews).



For emphasis:



> But the Nazi and Marxist-Leninists shared a faith in government, an absolute ruler,  totalitarian control over all significant  economic and social matters for the good of the working man, concentration camps, and genocide/democide as an effective government policy (only in his last years did Stalin plan for his own Holocaust of the Jews).



Another favorite article by Friedrich hayek on national socialism...And it also points to why the socialists fought other socialists...

http://www.brookesnews.com/091910hayeknazis.html



> The persecution of the Marxists, and
> of democrats in general, tends to obscure the fundamental fact that National
> "Socialism" is a genuine socialist movement, whose leading ideas are the final
> fruit of the anti-liberal tendencies which have been steadily gaining ground in
> ...



And there is this...

http://www.stephenhicks.org/2009/12...italism-section-8-of-nietzsche-and-the-nazis/



> *8. Economic socialism, not capitalism*
> The second theme of the Program is a stress upon socialism and a strong rejection of capitalism.
> Numerically, socialism is the most emphasized theme in the Nazi Program, for over half of the Programs twenty-five pointsfourteen out of the twenty-five, to be exactitemize economically socialist demands.
> Point 11 calls for the abolition of all income gained by loaning money at interest.
> ...





> These are just a small part of the works that I have that look at socialism, and facism and chronicle the fact that nazis were in fact national socialists, and therefore on the left wing of the political spectrum.  I am not making this up, and I don't point it out for anything other than to show that trying to call nazis "right wing," is inaccurate.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2012)

Historians note:  The Nazi's were Right-Wing Fascists.  

It takes some nifty re-knitting of terms and selective sampling of policies to come to a different conclusion.  A few do and those are the ones that BillC, of course, elects as being the authority on the matter.  
Even the dictionary does not agree with him or his sources but that will not stop attempts to re-cast the Nazi party, as the bogey-man of the last century, to be the brothers of political ideologies he does not agree with.

Thankfully, for the rest of us, it's not just up to one man what the historical truth is or how political movements are defined:

Fascism *-* a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

If it were up to one man, then that would be, well, Fascist . That, of course is a joke.

Note that that bald definition is shorn of shades of Right or Left, because Fascism is a mode of philosophy in governance in it's own right rather than a demi-form of Conservatism or Socialism.  The Nazi form of Fascism was Right Wing rather than Left, despite the crowd-pleasing phrasing of the propaganda used to promote it's policies.  It was top-down, rather than bottom up and sought to secure and enforce the power of the ruling class rather than elevate the weak and disadvantaged.

In the end, I can't help but think that BillC's problem with this topic is one of perspective brought on by environment (both educational and social) steeped in Reds Under the Bed.  That gives rise to a tendency to see anything that is not "Us" as "Them", a polarising of the political spectrum into a binary scale.  That seeing every problem as a nail, so the only tool is a hammer, is what in turn gives rise to so much negativity when there could be productive discussion.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh and finally:


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## billc (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, since socialism is the intermediate step toward true communism, the step in which the government is in control of the means of production, you have your top down control.  Which is what facism, which sprang from marxism, and nazism, which sprang from german socialism, and communism from the marxists.   I have the writings of at least 4 or 5 PH.D's in economics, a Ph.D in Political science and several other Ph.D's who will show how national socialism is in fact socialism.  German national socialism recruited from the ranks of the german communists who decided that the international brand wasn't to their liking.  Italian facism also sprang from the marxists in Italy.  Each developed according to the facts on the ground in their particular countries.  Denying the left wing status of the national socialists is...well nonsensical given all the data that points to that fact.

Here is another Ph.D on the topic of German socialism...

http://knol.google.com/k/hitler-was-a-socialist#



> John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D.)
> 
> _"True, it is a fixed idea with the French that the Rhine is their
> property, but to this arrogant demand the only reply worthy of the German nation
> ...



To emphasis the point...



> So let that be an introduction to the idea that Hitler not only called himself a
> socialist but that he WAS in fact a socialist by the standards of his day. Ideas
> that are now condemned as Rightist were in Hitler's day perfectly normal ideas
> among Leftists. And if Friedrich Engels was not a Leftist, I do not know who
> would be.





> The entire article by John J. Ray goes into this area of socialism.  In other articles he hits on the reason for the passionate need among some to say the national socialists and italian fascists were right, not left.  That reason is that if they can't pin the "right" label on the national socialists and italian fascists, then the worst mass murderering governments from 1917 through the cold war were left wing sociolist governments.   The nanny state socialists would have their extreme the nightmare of mass murder as the end result of their ideas.


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## billc (Feb 17, 2012)

--Exchange race with class, and the germans also promised to exalt the working man and to equalize their society,  but the communists were no friends of the jewish people either.
--exalts nation: "mother russia," the red chinese, all the socialists end up exalting their nations as a way to unify their populations.
--centralized, autocratic government, headed by a dictatorial leader:  Lenin, Mao, Pol pot, Hitler, Mussolini, hmmm...seems the same
--severe economic and social regimentation, put a check here for russia, china, vietnam, cambodia, cuba...
--forcible suppression of the opposition: the cultural revolution, the liquidating of the kulaks, the killing fields of cambodia...


Each one of the points is the hallmark of the extreme left wing of socialism.

And to the issue of the persecution of the Jewish people...



> But the most spectacular aspect of Nazism was surely its antisemitism. And that
> had a grounding in Marx himself. The following
> passage is from Marx but it could just as well have been from Hitler:
> 
> ...





> Note that Marx wanted to "emancipate" (free) mankind from Jewry
> (_"Judentum"_ in Marx's original German), just as Hitler did and that the
> title of Marx's essay in German was _"Zur Judenfrage"_, which -- while not
> necessarily derogatory in itself -- is nonetheless exactly the same expression
> ...



For emphasis...



> So all the most condemned
> features of Nazism can be traced back to Marx and Engels, right down to the
> language used. The thinking of Hitler, Marx and Engels differed mainly in
> emphasis rather than in content. All three were second-rate German intellectuals
> ...


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## billc (Feb 17, 2012)

From wikipedia on national socialism...



> majority of scholars identify Nazism in practice as being a far right form of politics.[SUP][27][/SUP] Far right themes exist in Nazism, including the goal of both Nazism as well fascism in general, to promote the right of superior people to dominate while purging society of claimed inferior elements; and particularly in the case of Nazism, genocide of people deemed to be inferior.[SUP][28]
> [/SUP]


[SUP]
this article tries to put the right wing title on the national socialists by pointing to the killing of people they believed to be inferior to them...however you find the same attitude in their cousins, the international socialists of the soviet union and Marx, who believed that peoples who were too far behind the historical curve could never catch up, and therefore had to simply be killed...

The point about killing inferior peoples by the marxists comes in at the 31 second mark on the following video...






And of course you had the killing fields of Cambodia and the other mass murders committed by the left around the world.


The killer in Norway, if not just insane, is part of the extreme left wing.  He didn't want the government of Norway to be limited in power.  He didn't want to protect the individual rights and freedoms of Norwegian citizens.  He wanted the centralized power of the Norwegian government to be used against a group of people he didn't like, a hallmark of the extreme left.

And from the article, more on the anti-semitism of the left (which you can see currently on display at the OWS encampments)



> > And by Hitler's time, antisemitism in particular, as well as racism in general,
> > already had a long history on the Left. August Bebel was the founder of
> > Germany's Social Democratic party (mainstream Leftists) and his best-known
> > saying is that antisemitism is _der Sozialismus des bloeden Mannes_
> > ...


[/SUP]


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## WC_lun (Feb 18, 2012)

Billi, I do not think "left wing" means what you think it means.  When you post these links to articles mostly written by authors who have the goal not of historical accuracy, but instead distorting historical fact to make people of opposing political thought out as nazi-like, you become a caricature of what you intend.  It is starting to become sad.


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## Jenna (Feb 18, 2012)

Bill, I think I am in the wrong discussion maybe. I am not wanting to make the distinction between left-wing and right-wing - particularly as I am not well enough informed. I was only pointing out the difference to me between moderate, centre, rational thought and action _either left or right_ which is perfectly fine in our kinds of democracies, and *extreme *thought and action on either side.  I do not care to argue left and right as to me it is all adulterated by ego in the end.  Extremism though is not a good thing, you would agree with this?  _Extreme _right-wing espouses xenophobia and intolerance (in my limited understanding) which I think are only vaguely linked to moderate right-wing thinking.  Likewise _extreme _left-wing espouses anarchistic anti-capitalism which is only vaguely based on anything resembling Marx.  My point that I am not making well is not to argue with you or anyone about left and right only to differentiate moderate and extreme.  My nanna left to come here to Britain during the war because of what happened where we are originally from, I would have no interest in debating the merits or lineage of Nazism left or right.  I am happy that everyone is entitled to their opinion though, that is just mine


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

However in the world according to Billcihak there are no valid views other than his. That's the problem. he flies in the face of the worlds experts with his views, he tells people from the former USSR what communism is and he tells Jews what their persescution is. Television shows, which as someone has already pointed out are fiction, confirm his views. A man who thinks the Muppets film is teaching children communism is not rational in his beliefs. This would be fine as Jenna has pointed out everyone can have their beliefs BUT and this is a big but when Bili and his ilk join together life starts getting dangerous for certain groups of people. This is why I will argue with him everytime, this is why Londoners came out at the battle of Cable Street, this is why the Second World was fought to stop right wing extremism like his harming the world. Silly? No, look at the McCarthy era where you had people with exactly the same views as Bili hunting down 'communists' in some cases driving them out of the country. Papers here have just been released about Charlie Chaplin who left the USA because he was accused of being a communist, the Americans asked the security services here to investigate him, they did though with scepticism, they were correct to do so, there wasn't anything communist in his background. DEspite that the FBI kept a file on him until 1977. Now he had the wealth to leave what about the ordinary Americans who didn't and had their lives ruined by this witch hunt? so Bili's talk still harmless? No I'm afraid it's not. It's extremism, it's right wing and when he and his kind gather together then it's dangerous for you if you don't think as he does, because they aren't going to respect your views they will destroy them...and you. Look at history, learn because it always repeats itself. Just his mumblings on the internet? As we are talking about Norway look at the killer of children and how he communicated with groups sympathetic to his right wing views.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rway-attacks-inside-the-mind-of-a-killer.html


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## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

Tez, if any nation is is danger of repeating the tragedy of the 1930's you should look at Britain.  The reliance on government, which increases every year, and the acceptance of this reliance leads to the worst places imaginable.  On other threads we have spoken about speech, and how silencing some types of speech is okay, and on healthcare, if the taxpayers pay for it it is right for them to make demands of citizens.  Right now, things will not be so bad.  Years from now, you are walking your way down the path that leads to really bad places.  Look at Greece.  I don't want these bad things for the U.S.  That is why putting as many limits on government as possible is a good thing. Centralized power never helps people, it only leads to them having less and less freedom and a reduced ability to fight off government based violence against its citizens.  Socialism, wether the german, italian, russian or chinese versions of the 1930's thru the cold war or the modern gentle socialism, will never lead anywhere good.  It erodes freedom and makes people less free and independent, more likely to look to the government for all of their needs, and then one day, the government will start making demands and start issuing more orders.  Perhaps they will even make religious institutions provide healthcare that goes against their religious beliefs.  Perhaps they will start searching children's lunch bags to ensure that the parents are providing government approved lunches.  Perhaps it takes a while for all of these things to add up, but eventually they will, and then you have what is happening in Greece.  Once all the money is gone, and the violence starts, then the government will crack down to "restore order." Then you are at the bad place, and bad things really start to happen.  Keep that in mind.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

billcihak said:


> Tez, if any nation is is danger of repeating the tragedy of the 1930's you should look at Britain. The reliance on government, which increases every year, and the acceptance of this reliance leads to the worst places imaginable. On other threads we have spoken about speech, and how silencing some types of speech is okay, and on healthcare, if the taxpayers pay for it it is right for them to make demands of citizens. Right now, things will not be so bad. Years from now, you are walking your way down the path that leads to really bad places. Look at Greece. I don't want these bad things for the U.S. That is why putting as many limits on government as possible is a good thing. Centralized power never helps people, it only leads to them having less and less freedom and a reduced ability to fight off government based violence against its citizens. Socialism, wether the german, italian, russian or chinese versions of the 1930's thru the cold war or the modern gentle socialism, will never lead anywhere good. It erodes freedom and makes people less free and independent, more likely to look to the government for all of their needs, and then one day, the government will start making demands and start issuing more orders. Perhaps they will even make religious institutions provide healthcare that goes against their religious beliefs. Perhaps they will start searching children's lunch bags to ensure that the parents are providing government approved lunches. Perhaps it takes a while for all of these things to add up, but eventually they will, and then you have what is happening in Greece. Once all the money is gone, and the violence starts, then the government will crack down to "restore order." Then you are at the bad place, and bad things really start to happen. Keep that in mind.




You don't actually read anything anyone posts do you? You have the ideas in your mind and that's it. You have totally the wrong idea of what goes on here, how things work and just see what you want to see. Of course the UK to you is a bad place, it's not right wing America. Your fascist thinking is far more dangerous than anything that we could come up with here.


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## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

You call me facsist, but I'm the one talking about free speech, limited government and the rights of the individual.  How one gets to fascist from that is interesting, considering you support limits on free speech, the government's ability to tell citizens what to do as regards health care and so on...but you call me the fascist.  Interesting.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

You do realise we have a Conservative Prime Minister as well as a mostly Conservative government don't you. The Socialists aren't in power here, they are in Opposition and you've just proved my point that you don't read what I post or at least you read into what you want to because you have it all **** about face. I find that when I try to explain how something works here you automatically assume I'm a supporter of it, how odd and how fascist.

In case you don't get the point, the giving of contraceptives to girls without parents knowledge and all the rest were enacted by your beloved conservatives not the Socialists.


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## granfire (Feb 18, 2012)

Yo know, I was kind of laughing about billi's little escapades in this thread. 

Then it kind of struck me:
his ilk is up and about.
The story about Chaplin - read the comments, it hardly takes 3 before somebody harps in about Obama. No, really?! I don't even think Chaplin was in the same country when the President was conceived....and long dead before the man ever started into politics.

It seems lately all subjects turn into 'bad Obama'


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## Jenna (Feb 18, 2012)

No offence to anyone at all and but re-reading over this thread in its entirety again I think I remember why I used to avoid The Study.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

Definition of fascist 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fascist

fascist [&#712;fæ&#643;&#618;st] _(sometimes capital)_ _n_ *1.* (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) an adherent or practitioner of fascism
*2.* (Government, Politics & Diplomacy)* any person regarded as having right-wing authoritarian views*

_adj_ _also_ *fascistic* [f&#601;&#712;&#643;&#618;st&#618;k] (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) characteristic of or relating to fascism *fascistically* _adv


_The absolute insistance that one is correct, while no one else can be, to the extent of seeking only those who agree with them as citing one's correctness is laughable until the first detractors are persecuted. Then it becomes serious.


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## elder999 (Feb 18, 2012)

billcihak said:
			
		

> You call me facsist, but I'm the one talking about free speech, limited government and the rights of the individual.  How one gets to fascist from that is interesting, considering you support limits on free speech, the government's ability to tell citizens what to do as regards health care and so on...but you call me the fascist.  Interesting.



TO be fair, the show sounds like a funny "fish out of water" sitcom, sort of like _My Blue Heaven_, only with _fenalår _and_ gravlaks_,instead of popovers.:lol:

To be_ really_  fair, though-I read some of the reviews that billi _copypastas_ (look, Omar, I made a _verb!_ :lol: ) and later see the movie or read the whatever and really have to wonder if they saw the same thing. It seems to me that if one is constantly looking at everything through a rightwing vs. leftwing lens, then they _truly cannot see a *goddam* thing._ The review he posted about _Captain America_ is just one example that rolls out......
_
Gobbledygook_.

_Sylvio Dante
you all me a fascist
Mafia freedom
Norwegian nanny state
weak men
Heil Brietbart!_

(Oh, and sleep with a Norwegian woman, then tell me that their men are weak....kegels in kinderegarten gym class, _oh my *God!*_ )


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## granfire (Feb 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> (Oh, and* sleep with a Norwegian woman*, then tell me that their men are weak....kegels in kinderegarten gym class, _oh my *God!* )_


_

sooo many things to be said about that....

:lfao:

(you know billi and women don't seem to go into one sentence...)_


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## elder999 (Feb 18, 2012)

Jenna said:
			
		

> No offence to anyone at all and but re-reading over this thread in its entirety again I think I remember why I used to avoid The Study.



Oh, please don't go, Jenna. What billi posts is puerile nonsense, made even more puerile by his constantly appearing to be blithely unaware of how offensive some of it is, because he insists that it's "right." (As though telling someone that they're "fat" could be anything but offensive, simply because it's "right." :lol: ) Once you wrap your head around that, his posts become somewhat amusing, as long as you don't think of their sources as voting. Or gathering in groups. Or being anywhere near children.......

.....or having children themselves....okay, I'll stop now-I threw up in my mouth a little there....:barf:


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## granfire (Feb 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Oh, please don't go, Jenna. What billi posts is puerile nonsense, made even more puerile by his constantly appearing to be blithely unaware of how offensive some of it is, because he insists that it's "right." (As though telling someone that they're "fat" could be anything but offensive, simply because it's "right." :lol: ) Once you wrap your head around that, his posts become somewhat amusing, as long as you don't think of their sources as voting. Or gathering in groups. Or being anywhere near children.......
> 
> .....or having children themselves....okay, I'll stop now-I threw up in my mouth a little there....:barf:



Yes, that pretty much is the essence of it.


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## WC_lun (Feb 18, 2012)

I know it is frustrating, but we should keep away from personal insults.  Point out the flaws in Billi's post and his thinking so that other people do not buy into some of that nonsense.  When we stoop to insults, we apear to be what Billi wants us to apear to be.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> I know it is frustrating, but we should keep away from personal insults. Point out the flaws in Billi's post and his thinking so that other people do not buy into some of that nonsense. When we stoop to insults, we apear to be what Billi wants us to apear to be.



I haven't insulted him, I honestly believe his political views are fascist in nature. Perhaps in America you call people you don't like fascist but I'm using it in the true sense of the word not as an insult.


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## elder999 (Feb 18, 2012)

WC_lun said:
			
		

> I know it is frustrating, but we should keep away from personal insults.  Point out the flaws in Billi's post and his thinking so that other people do not buy into some of that nonsense.  When we stoop to insults, we apear to be what Billi wants us to apear to be.



And read what I posted again: I haven't insulted* him *at all.....:lfao:


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## granfire (Feb 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I haven't insulted him, I honestly believe his political views are fascist in nature. Perhaps in America you call people you don't like fascist but I'm using it in the true sense of the word not as an insult.





Weeeeelllllll

that is splitting hairs though.......
:lfao:

And we can get back to my question from Tuesday: if it's true, is it an insult?

:angel:


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## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

Anyway...the first two episodes were okay.  Norway looks way too cold in the winter.   The scenery is really nice though, and I wonder how the E-street band guy got involved in a show from Norway.

I enjoy when this topic comes up, I always find new info. on the leftism of the nazis...



> *The Far-Left Anti-Capitalism of the Nazi Program*
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqdxQJYIWvg&feature=related



When you hear what the actual national socialist party goals were, you don't get the feeling they stood for individual freedom, or capitalism...


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

:deadhorse


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## granfire (Feb 18, 2012)

comes to mind
or
:seppuku:

but I think I'll go with 
:CTF:

:revenge:


we really need a streaker icon....


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

For Jenna, Gran and me...enjoy!





and ..sigh...


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## granfire (Feb 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> For Jenna, Gran and me...enjoy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:inlove::inlove:


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

AHA are celebrating 30 years in the business in September with a big show in Oslo, I'd love to go but I'm saving to go on a tour of Norway next spring, was supposed to be this spring but haven't saved enough yet.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> (Oh, and sleep with a Norwegian woman, then tell me that their men are weak....kegels in kinderegarten gym class, _oh my *God!*_ )



Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter...


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## granfire (Feb 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> AHA are celebrating 30 years in the business in September with a big show in Oslo, I'd love to go but I'm saving to go on a tour of Norway next spring, was supposed to be this spring but haven't saved enough yet.



Do we need to send out warnings ahead of time?


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## Sukerkin (Feb 18, 2012)

You'll forgive me if I prefer this Nordic based video offering :angel:

[yt]N-StFDicNHc[/yt]

Warnings:  I didn't have the sound on so I don't know what music/commentary there is and also be aware that the comments below the video are not very civilised - it seems the racists are out in force for this one .


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## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

My thoughts on the first two episodes of Lilyhammer...

There are two things that I disagreed with on the show.  First, there is a scene where a muslim man refuses to shake the hands with a woman.  Frankie the fixer corners this guy in the bathroom and slaps him around to make him more respectful.  Now, if not touching a strange woman is part of the muslim religious practice, it wasn't right to do this to the guy.  Religious freedom is religious freedom.  If he had been hitting or beating a woman, that would have been a different story.

Next...a police officer walks into the fast food place of the same muslim guy and turns the t.v. onto the program 24.  Obviously, it is the season where muslim terrorists were the central villians.  The muslim man turns the channel back and the police officer gives him grief, tells the owner he has a constitutional right to change the channel, in a private business, and threatens to call in health inspectors to close down his restaurant.  This too is wrong because private property is private property.  Sure, it may be different in Norway, but to an American conservative, if you own property, the government needs to stay out of your business.  It may be different in Norway, it will be interesting to see what other differences there are.

I think the show has potential, and I'll keep watching it.  It is interesting that Frankie the fixer is actually a sympathetic character who gets the girl.


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## granfire (Feb 18, 2012)

billcihak said:


> My thoughts on the first two episodes of Lilyhammer...
> 
> There are two things that I disagreed with on the show.  First, there is a scene where a muslim man refuses to shake the hands with a woman.  Frankie the fixer corners this guy in the bathroom and slaps him around to make him more respectful.  Now, if not touching a strange woman is part of the muslim religious practice, it wasn't right to do this to the guy.  Religious freedom is religious freedom.  If he had been hitting or beating a woman, that would have been a different story.
> 
> ...



quit derailing the derailment!


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2012)

Gran, I'm going with the family so can't chase nice Norwegian men, we are going on a boat that plys up and down the coast stopping at various places, it isn't a cruise liner but a ferry and transport ship. Looks wonderful. http://www.hurtigruten.co.uk/norway...pring-Classic-Round-Voyage-15-March---31-May/

At Trondheim I'll go and see the MMA club there that sends fighters across to us, really nice guys, very good fighters.


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