# Partner Training



## Skip Cooper (Apr 12, 2007)

When training techniques with a partner, do you help your partner up after a technique or allow him/her to get up on their own? 

I was recently taught not to help them up because your body can become "programmed" to this behavior. In a real conflict situation, this learned instinct can cause further injury to your attacker or worse, you help him back into the fight.  

I was told of a story about a LEO (I think he was a LEO) in Canada who disarmed a bad guy only to automatically give the weapon back (as he was accustomed to do in his training). This mistake led to his death. Don't know if this story is true...but it is food for thought.

Any thoughts?


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## Drac (Apr 12, 2007)

Skip Cooper said:


> I was told of a story about a LEO (I think he was a LEO) in Canada who disarmed a bad guy only to automatically give the weapon back (as he was accustomed to do in his training). This mistake led to his death. Don't know if this story is true...but it is food for thoughts


 
That story has been around awhile..The point it made to me is that every person should have their OWN training weapon when practicing weapon retention or disarms.The sharing of a training weapon and the act of handing back to your partner CAN easily become ingrained..I've helped people up an visa-versa..Never felt the need to do it on the strets..


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## fnorfurfoot (Apr 12, 2007)

I think that helping your partner back up is just good manners.  I don't think that it will get you into the habit of helping someone you took down on the street because in that situation, your response was to hurt that person.  Since you are not trying to hurt your partner, your behavior will be different.  It's kind of like swinging your arm out and accidentally smacking someone.  Your instinct should be to say your sorry.  If you purposefully smack someone, their reaction of being in pain is what you were going for so you wouldn't appologize.  At least that's the way I see it.  Maybe I'm just a heartless so-and-so.


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## Skip Cooper (Apr 12, 2007)

fnorfurfoot said:


> I think that helping your partner back up is just good manners.


 
I agree with you, we do help our partners up out of courteousy. And I also agree that in a real conflict, I doubt I will be very courteous.


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## stickarts (Apr 12, 2007)

We usually help each other back up.
Although i agree that how we train largely impacts how we will respond, I feel quite confident that i wouldn't automatically help my assailant up or return a weapon to them and i don't believe most students, if any, would either.
For me, respect and good manners outweigh that worry.
It was never an issue in my full contact matches. I clearly knew the difference between good manners and protecting myself.


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## JBrainard (Apr 12, 2007)

Skip Cooper said:


> I was recently taught not to help them up because your body can become "programmed" to this behavior. In a real conflict situation, this learned instinct can cause further injury to your attacker or worse, you help him back into the fight.
> 
> I was told of a story about a LEO (I think he was a LEO) in Canada who disarmed a bad guy only to automatically give the weapon back (as he was accustomed to do in his training). This mistake led to his death. Don't know if this story is true...but it is food for thought.


 
That is what we are taught as well, and for the same reason. We never help our partner up and we NEVER pick up our partner's weapon and give it to them. I think it makes sense.


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## jks9199 (Apr 12, 2007)

Skip Cooper said:


> When training techniques with a partner, do you help your partner up after a technique or allow him/her to get up on their own?
> 
> I was recently taught not to help them up because your body can become "programmed" to this behavior. In a real conflict situation, this learned instinct can cause further injury to your attacker or worse, you help him back into the fight.
> 
> ...


I'd generally consider it good manners to help your partner up after you've practiced the technique.  After is the key word; you take the technique to it's completion, then stop, and then help your partner up.  You're not stopping in the middle to pick him up off the ground, and you're not cutting the technique short to help him up.

Sharing training weapons is sometimes a necessity -- but there should always be a clear, absolute STOP at the completion of the technique before the weapon is exchanged.  Ideally, you'll do several reps, then he'll do several.  

When I say "completion", I'm talking take the move to it's finish; if it's a sweep, move to a position of control before helping him up, for example.  If it's a choke or lock -- he taps, you relent, then get up.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 12, 2007)

In IRT we do not help the other guy up as that gives him a chance to practice standing up in base which he or she could use in a real confrontation. (It also helps to give their leg muscles a really good workout as well)


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## Brian King (Apr 12, 2007)

At our school (Systema) we do not help each other up. People helping each other up I believe is very polite and very courteous yet I also believe it is mutual theft. It is a theft of training opportunity. 

The person helping you up is robbing you of the opportunity of learning how to get up properly/safely without assistance. Learning to keep some attention on your training partner and also your surroundings (usually others are falling as well) and able to escape or counter the possible follow up attack(s) is an important lessons learned that many people rush thru with little or no notice as they hurry to their feet so that they can exchange techniques with their partner. Getting off the ground efficiently with out using your arms to push off the ground and without leading with your head or suspending your breathing is learned by repeatedly getting up off of the ground. 

The person that lets you help them up robs you of an important training opportunity as well. Learning how people react when hitting the ground is important. I try to pay attention to the following. Do they bounce or spin or flip to their back/stomach? Do they look for you on the way down or only once they stand back up? Do they push off the ground with their arms? Do they suspend their breathing maybe even making a grunting noise as they get up? Can I see their tension and what and how they use support to get up? Can they counter on the way to the ground, once on the ground or on the transition from the ground back to standing? How is my positioning and comportment while they are falling and recovering? Am I keeping aware of my training partner while maintaining an awareness of my surroundings and the others around me? 

I see so many training opportunities to explore both how your partner and I move and react and opportunities to learning not only how people&#8217;s movement changes from when they are fresh to when they are exhausted or frustrated or in pain but how their tensions change and what they use for support and how they use it during these different extremes and all the phases in-between and how it all effects me as well.

I try to train to watch everyone in the room as they are getting up and falling down not just my training partner. I also try to learn to deal with an attack or to attack while being aware of or even concentrating the majority of my attention elsewhere.

Helping others up is good manners but I do not think it is necessarily good training at least for me. When others from different arts offer to help me up I almost always politely decline and get up on my own. 

Brian


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## zDom (Apr 12, 2007)

I agree that getting up on your own is part of falling (ukemi/nakbup) and part of the training.

The only time I help a partner up is when I unintentionally drop them on a "fit" that was not an expected throw.

Getting up for me is definately part of the training  being careful to not get (unintentionally) kicked in the face by my partner as they walk back to their original position, as well as the effort of getting back up off the mat again, being careful to regain my feet deliberately, without twisting a knee or ankle.


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## Telos (Aug 3, 2007)

i generally hep othee people bbcaue they seem tto expect it. hower myself i prefer to get up on my own.

It also dependds on WHY you are training or trained in your art style.

If you're just tehre to leaarn some moves and pick up some street smarts and self defense....you might not fae so well in a real situation.

Hopefully themajority of you will never see such things.


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## crushing (Aug 3, 2007)

I do usually help my training partner up.  At the same rate here are some things I do not do with my training partner, I do not actually eye rake my partner, strike the throat or any other body part full force.  I do not turn joint locks and submissions into dislocations and breaks.

While I hope I never have to find out, I don't think I would treat an attacker like a training partner.


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## joe-jitsu (Oct 28, 2007)

I have been a police academy use of force staff instructor for a large university here in Michigan now for several years.  I can tell you that there have actually been two of these instances in Canada and one in the U.S. in recent years.  In the second Canadian incident, the officer disarmed the subject, gave the gun back immediately without even thinking about it, and then when they realized what occurred, attempted to disarm the subject again, did so successfully, however was shot and wounded, but lived.  This is a pyschological occurrence called "hypervigilance" that occurs to officers/soldiers during combat survival stress or "life and death" incidents.  This is a result of an individuals _sympathetic nervous system activation_.  For more on this, you can read Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's (ret.) book On Killing.  I can tell you that this is very real and, though it does show good manners, would highly recommend that individuals in training get into the habit of NOT helping their partners up and also each using their own individual weapons.

The best of luck in training...

-Joe


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## Brother John (Oct 28, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In IRT we do not help the other guy up as that gives him a chance to practice standing up in base which he or she could use in a real confrontation. (It also helps to give their leg muscles a really good workout as well)


 
That's how I see it too.
Helping the other guy back up used to be the norm for me. Then I worked with a guy who'd read those same reports. We got into a discussion about it and it made good sense. We train over and over on our techniques, but we often neglect to train our bodies to rebound and get UP off our duffs fast enough to cope with whatever is to follow. 

Might sound odd, but "Getting up alone after a crash" is a very important lesson. Now I try to always train myself to get up as quickly as possible while considering cover and adapting to my environment. I think it's very important. If we train to make the recovery (getting up again, safely) a natural part of our training day in and day out...then it will come as an automatic response in fighting.

Just more to think about!

GOOD subject!

Your Brother
John


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## jks9199 (Oct 28, 2007)

Brother John said:


> That's how I see it too.
> Helping the other guy back up used to be the norm for me. Then I worked with a guy who'd read those same reports. We got into a discussion about it and it made good sense. We train over and over on our techniques, but we often neglect to train our bodies to rebound and get UP off our duffs fast enough to cope with whatever is to follow.
> 
> Might sound odd, but "Getting up alone after a crash" is a very important lesson. Now I try to always train myself to get up as quickly as possible while considering cover and adapting to my environment. I think it's very important. If we train to make the recovery (getting up again, safely) a natural part of our training day in and day out...then it will come as an automatic response in fighting.
> ...


I still think that there's a time and place to stress the "get up on your own" -- which I agree is a necessary skill -- and the "be polite and give your training partner a hand" approach.

But I think this goes beyond just helping someone up; a lot of people stop a technique (like one-steps or partner exercises) at the strike.  They'll block/counter, then pose prettily at the moment of impact.  I feel that you should always take the technique to completion, and then move to safety or control before stopping the technique.  You can pause at various points in it to make sure that you're doing it properly -- but continue through.  For example, if I'm practicing a technique that goes evade/block/punch, I might pause to see if I really evaded, then block & pause to check the block, then punch & pause to see if I was on target with proper dynamics... but then I step back out to a relative position of safety before the technique is "over."  Or, if I'm practicing a control & cuffing technique, I've seen people do the "OK, you got, it's my turn..." routine; I'll at the very minimum put the wrists in position for cuffing -- and often cuff or at least simulate it.  The technique isn't over until the person is truly controlled, AND you're in a safe position.

Same thing if you're swapping training weapons.  Carry the technique to a finish point of safety, then BREAK the exercise, and only then should you swap the training weapon.

But, like I said, there's a place for being a nice guy, too.  You can always move in and help your partner up AFTER you've gotten to a point of safety -- and if you're in a situation where you're not really focusing on the real deal, it's OK to be polite.  Or if you've just clocked/swept/KOed your partner in one of those OOPSes that do happen in serious training...  That's definitely a time to make nice!


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## DRay (Nov 13, 2007)

This is something about training that had never even crossed my mind before, especially the part about getting up properly since I train at a School where the majority of the students study Tang Soo Do.  If I ever get taken down during a sparring class, most everybody except our Master just waits for me to stand back up.

Where I train we help each other up, and I was thinking about what you said about being "trained" to help anyone up when something occurred to me.  If I personally had to use a technique on a person in a real situation I would be holding the technique to restrain them, or if this was not possible, break a joint as a last resort, so helping the person up would be a non-issue.  Even after a throw or take-down I would follow them to the ground or to a crouch and a apply another submission.

I've never worked with weapons before, but I think in training it should never before part of the whole routine to hand a person back their weapon without thinking.  As long as there is a pause and a conscious realization of "Okay, now I give this back," I believe the problem could be avoided.


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## matt.m (Nov 21, 2007)

Oh gee I take it on a case by case basis.  In other words I am inconsistant.  I have fought enough, (Not too sound like a tough guy), to know the difference.

Anyway, in hapkido as well as training my judo students a hand is generally offered just out of common respect for the persons training partner.


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