# How/Why do fights start?



## FearlessFreep (Feb 18, 2005)

In an earlier thread I asked about 'going to the ground'.  Some of the replies were pretty interesting but something that sorta stood out to me was in how fighting situations developed; one guy mentioned road rage and slamming someone's door, another guy mentioned stepping outside and fighting fairly 'dirty', I guess.

 The two examples I started with were pretty contrived to try to set up a situation but I'll admit that I'm not really sure how fights start in the first place

 I'm a 35 year old man, a computer programmer and musician.  Pretty laid back and pleasant, I think.  I play at clubs, but not dives; people are usualy well behaved.  I have five kids and I'm sometimes out with them, but not late at night.  I've never been in a fight as an adult and I'll admit that I can't think of how one would develop unless someone else took offense to something I was doing and they'd probably have to be drunk and misunderstand me to do that.  Or a random robbing/mugging or something.  I'm not the kind to get drunk and cause trouble myself

 I'll admit, I can't really think of a scenario of getting in a fight with someone who was lucid because of a developing situation between me and the other person.  

 So I'm curious, how do people end up in fights where they need to use MA/SD skills for survival?


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## mj_lover (Feb 18, 2005)

exellent question, kinda wondering that myself, but i think you have that main ones coverd. drunkenes and road rage (or similar).


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## KajuMom (Feb 18, 2005)

Disregarding cases where the aggressor is under influence of substance (drugs or alcohol), I think many fights get started because of "ego."

I think it is probably very hard for many people to "walk away" from a potential fight or de-escalate a potentially violent situation if they feel that their ego may be "bruised." 

Now I don't think this necessarily happens at a conscious level, but in many violent confrontations that I read about in the paper, it seems that they are often gang related (egos are involved) or recently I read that a man was attacked by another man because he bumped into attacker's girlfriend in a bar.

I think it would be very hard to take the "higher road" and de-escalate the situation, especially if you feel that you are in the right and you are physically able to "take on" the person. I've been a situation where I know I was not in the wrong, the other person appeared to be very angry, but I was able to say (and it was NOT easy) something to the effect "Wow--that was a close call! Are you OK, I'm glad no one got hurt" etc etc, and the situation did not escalate any further. The other person yelled a bit, but got back in their car. I was a pedestrian walking on a remote rural road with my 60-year old mother. Although if it came to it, I would be willing to physically defend myself and my mother (the other person was also a woman), this was the better resolution.

My instructor drills this into my brain--do not let your ego get you into a violent situation if there is another way out...


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## tsdclaflin (Feb 18, 2005)

Jealousy.  I have family that live in a rural town in the west where three murders have occurred in the past 20 months.  Two of them were because of jealousy.  One man shot and killed his ex-girlfriend because she wouldn't get back together (or so the story goes) and the more recent one was two men fighting over a girl.

I would like to think that the best self-defense that I have learned from my martial arts training is AVOIDing situations (as you discussed) where I would be required to use MA.

For urbanites, muggings are another frequent occurence.  On a trip to NY city with my wife, someone reached out and grabbed my hand as we were walking down the street.  I pulled away, and turned ready to protect (I was very alert).  It was a prostitute.  I continued on my way.

The only time I expect to have to use my martial arts is during the commitment of a crime. I don't expect to ever get into a fight for any reason.  Burglury gone bad, car jacking, mugging on the street, hold-up in a store (or even at a bank), etc.

That's my 2 cents; I hope you got your money's worth.


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 18, 2005)

When I was about 17 someone tried to mug me. I was walking home late at night after a party, my ride had gotten drunk and so I refused to ride with him. On my way home a man asked me for the time so, I looked at my watch and told him. I noticed he was walking towards me and he said "nice watch you got there". Without getting into too much detail he pulled a knife and cornered me. 

The reason that the fight got started is because I displayed an object that looked valuable. I also displayed a carefree attitude.  "Predators" look for signs of "weakness", like being kind to strangers. I will continue to be nice to anyone in the future, but I won't be giving out the time. 

For those who are curious I kept the watch and his knife.


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## KajuMom (Feb 18, 2005)

You are lucky that you kept the watch and it seems you were not attacked in this particular situation. Unless I felt that my life or body was in danger, I would simply give the person what he wanted (my purse, my watch, my money) and in this way try avoid violence. 

However, if I felt that I was likely to be attacked, hurt, harmed, killed--at that point, that's when I would engage physically. 

Statistically (at least for women), you have equal odds fighting back against an armed attacker as you have if you allow yourself to be taken to a second location. This is another thing that would cause me to fight back.

I'm small and though trained in self defense, would not automatically try to fight an armed person who simply wanted my physical possessions. I hope it never comes to this in my life. We train in knife and gun self defense techniques, and are told over and over that gun self defense is a last resort tactic. Ugh, I hope I never have to make this kind of decision.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 18, 2005)

KajuMom said:
			
		

> Disregarding cases where the aggressor is under influence of substance (drugs or alcohol), I think many fights get started because of "ego."
> 
> I think it is probably very hard for many people to "walk away" from a potential fight or de-escalate a potentially violent situation if they feel that their ego may be "bruised."
> 
> ...



Most excellent reply. 
Human beings respond to stimuli, like most any other animal. It is conceivable that we are the only mammals on the planet that have this thing called ego or self-esteem/ self-image. Depending upon how secure we feel about that ego/image goes a long way in determining how quickly we'll rise to the fight. 
There's also for a large part a huge erroneous ideal of honor and the need to defend that honor. "Your momma so fat she stands up and it's an eclipse!" Now we gotta get up and kick that guy's ***.  Why? Probably because we couldn't think of something just as witty to say back about _their_ momma.  There's also the honor of defense of self and another. At a bar some guy is hitting on your girl-friend, naturally one must step up and say "hey, go look somewhere else".  This can be the stimulus to begin fighting. 
I think most people were spoiling for a fight long before they even got to the location. Bad day at work/home, a fight with someone else (verbal or physical) unresolved/unfinished. So basically any excuse is good enough, bumping into his girlfriend (_intentionally_) misperceived as a hostile act gives the reason why it's time to beat the crap out of someone. 
*BOREDOM* is another big (and stupid) reason why fights get started. Though you'll be hard pressed to find fighters willing to admit that's the real reason... why? Because they _know_ they'll look stupid. But sometimes to some people ... fighting is *fun*! 
Fear also starts fights. As with the example by KajuMom, a near miss/hit scary and thus the need to get it out of the system, the best way? Anger, yelling... fighting. A bigger guy trying to playfully intimidate a smaller guy. The smaller guy over reacts and a fight is going. 

There's another reason I found fascinating. In Latin American/European countries riots get started in Soccer Stadiums. Why? Because one team was losing? Researchers found (read this years ago)... that because the stadiums/seats are often times standing room only and so crowded that men generally just start urinating on the spot instead of wriggling through the crowd to the restroom and back. Are the riots/fights started because one guy accidently wet the pants of another guy? No, the reason that was discovered was pheromones. Not just from one guy but from a whole crowd of guys just pissing on the floor and mixing it all in. Stimuli, male musk if you will. Designed to attract females (no, not with urine... the pheromones) it also arouses male fighting instinct of terroriality and mating drives where two males must fight to win the female. In a Soccer Stadium this is inadverted/unintentional and from last I (read) steps were being taken to eliminate this effect/stimulus. 
Animalistic behavior but still fascinating from a socio-anthropological point of view. No matter how far up the scale we will go as a society/race of beings (humans), we still have animal instincts geared for our surival and continuation. 
Neat stuff.


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## Raewyn (Feb 18, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> Most excellent reply.
> Human beings respond to stimuli, like most any other animal. It is conceivable that we are the only mammals on the planet that have this thing called ego or self-esteem/ self-image. Depending upon how secure we feel about that ego/image goes a long way in determining how quickly we'll rise to the fight.
> There's also for a large part a huge erroneous ideal of honor and the need to defend that honor. "Your momma so fat she stands up and it's an eclipse!" Now we gotta get up and kick that guy's ***. Why? Probably because we couldn't think of something just as witty to say back about _their_ momma. There's also the honor of defense of self and another. At a bar some guy is hitting on your girl-friend, naturally one must step up and say "hey, go look somewhere else". This can be the stimulus to begin fighting.
> I think most people were spoiling for a fight long before they even got to the location. Bad day at work/home, a fight with someone else (verbal or physical) unresolved/unfinished. So basically any excuse is good enough, bumping into his girlfriend (_intentionally_) misperceived as a hostile act gives the reason why it's time to beat the crap out of someone.
> ...


 

Excellent post, I agree.  One night a male friend and myself were out and about on the town. We were walking down the road looking for a taxi, when about 12 street kids roughly between the ages of 14 and 17 years of age set upon us.  I got dealt to severely. This was the most scariest time of my life. I had no MA training at that time, but when the adreniline kicks in it really kicks in.  There were only the two of us and the only reason they stopped was the police happened to drive by.  Im glad they never had weapons, could have been alot worse. I came out of that with a cracked rib and just alot of facial bruising.  

In New Zealand this is a big thing.  Those kids were bored, their homelife sucks, dads beating up mum, (or mums beating up dad)their parents dont give a toss where they are, and they get their kicks by harrassing other people. Everybody feels big when they are in a group, but get them by themselves and their a mouse.

On a lighter note, Im not allowed to push the trolley at the supermarket as I get trolley rage!!!!!! So partner pushes it. I find too many people are ignorant in the supermarket, in fact I hate supermarket shopping anyways!


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## TonyM. (Feb 20, 2005)

Curious. Folks are answering this as if they did something to start a fight. Every fight I have ever seen or been in has been because someone of low moral character has started a fight.


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 20, 2005)

Actually I was cornered, and he did try to stab me. If I thought I could have given him the watch and that would be the end of it I surely would have. However, I felt that even after I gave him the watch he wouldn't be satisifed. So I took his knife and ran as fast as I could. 

I'm lucky on two counts, 1) I ran faster than he did, and more importantly 2) he was obviously untrained with his knife, or I'm almost positive that I would've been cut, at least once.  :enguard:


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## FearlessFreep (Feb 20, 2005)

There are two general principles I've tried to develop; fortunately I have never had to put them into practice (except the second, in sparring)

1) Don't do something unless the cost of not doing something is higer
2) Anything you do is probably going to hurt you, too.  Be ready for it, and make sure it hurts them worse.


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## Tony (Feb 20, 2005)

I haven't been in a fight since I was 17 so I guess I have been quite lucky but when I was younger I would get into fights all the time, I guess to show off but after a while something changed in my character and I never had the courage to fight anyone and I became weak and allowed the most physically weak people to bully me as well as the hard cases too. If only I had had received Martial Arts Training earlier when I was 12 I woudl ahve had more confidence and not taken all of this sh@@! But due to being shy I was intimidated by going to a class until I thought enough was enough and decided to go to a class when I was 21. I started Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu which I have enjoyed a lot and I'm happy to say I have never had to use what I have learned, but if my life were on the line I woudl do  all I could to survive.

Going back to an incident when I was 17 and all my knowledge of Martial ARrts hgad come from books, I was attacked by 4 guys, though I was very scared and they did land some shots on me, they did not leave a mark and because I was so filled with adrenalin I didn't feel a thing. The only thing i was annoyed about was that they broke the zip on my jacket.

Now I'm not the kind of person to start fights, it doesn't matter what happens, whether I'm being insulted or whatever, no excuse to start a fight but if I knew I could lose my life I would use every dirty trick to escape.
Saturday nights are very scary going out because where I live, most towns and cities in England have this booze culture, where you get groups of guys acting silly drinking too much and causing mayhem. The most stupid reason people get into fights is beacuse someone spilt someone's elses drink!

An incident that happened when my 2 friends were on holiday: They were on one of the Greek Islands walking down the street and they walked past a group of Albanians, one of them accidentall I think nudged him and him being a bit highly strung gave a evil stare. The next thing they knew they were all set upon. This is one of the reasons when I go out I don't always drink, I'm usually the onewho drives but if I do drink its never too excess as i like to have my wits about me.


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## Phoenix44 (Feb 20, 2005)

*Here in New York, it usually starts over a parking space.*


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## Danjo (Feb 20, 2005)

Most of my involvement with fights is in trying to break them up. I teach behavior conduct disorder high school kids. Most of _their_ fights start over something serious like someone looking at them


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## OC Kid (Feb 21, 2005)

I think not counting drugs, alcohol ect its can be brought down to 2 items..1)pride and ego and 2) not knowing how to manage anger.

With the who does he think he is, he cant do that to me....
and being angry at the wife, boss, life in general... some folks have no other way of venting


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## still learning (Feb 21, 2005)

Hello, Why fight starts? "Simple" it is a learn behavior. Teach a man to hate, his sons will learn it too! That is why man will never ending the fighting of each other. Blacks and whites will never stop hating each other. The Jew and Muslins will never stop fighing.

 The whole world teaches our chirldren to fight back. So when we grow up and someone 'bumps" us or say something ulgy, "pow" it begins again. never ending story. 

  The leaders of the world, sets the examples for all to follow. Do you agree?  ...Aloha


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## KajuMom (Feb 21, 2005)

TonyM. said:
			
		

> Curious. Folks are answering this as if they did something to start a fight. Every fight I have ever seen or been in has been because someone of low moral character has started a fight.



I posted one of the first replies on this thread. The example I gave was a misunderstanding between a driver and pedestrians (myself and my mother). I don't think I did anything to "start a fight"; however, actions can be misinterpreted, which can lead to behavior that escalates to violence. This is where I think it can be hard for people to "walk away," if at all possible.

In my case, a young woman was driving too fast for the situation (winding road, blind corners, 25 mph speed limit, no sidewalks) and came very close to hitting me and my mother. We walk frequently on this road and are careful of this type of driver. 

Although I can't say for sure, the driver was probably shaken by a near miss (caused by her own bad driving, I think), and reacted to my mother and I both instinctively looking back at her over our shoulders after she passed. She too was looking back, slammed on the brakes, and got out of the car. You can see  my original post for how it turned out, but in this situation, I agree with FearlessFreep, who said:

_1) Don't do something unless the cost of not doing something is higer
2) Anything you do is probably going to hurt you, too. Be ready for it, and make sure it hurts them worse._

I was able to talk my way out of it because I judged that this was the "lower cost" option. Even if I had been able to do something physically, I probably would have been hurt to some degree [and who wants that? -- it happens enough in training ], and possibly my mother could have been hurt.

In short, I did not start a fight and in fact felt that I possibly prevented one.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 23, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> Most excellent reply.
> Human beings respond to stimuli, like most any other animal. It is conceivable that we are the only mammals on the planet that have this thing called ego or self-esteem/ self-image. Depending upon how secure we feel about that ego/image goes a long way in determining how quickly we'll rise to the fight.
> There's also for a large part a huge erroneous ideal of honor and the need to defend that honor. "Your momma so fat she stands up and it's an eclipse!" Now we gotta get up and kick that guy's ***. Why? Probably because we couldn't think of something just as witty to say back about _their_ momma. There's also the honor of defense of self and another. At a bar some guy is hitting on your girl-friend, naturally one must step up and say "hey, go look somewhere else". This can be the stimulus to begin fighting.
> I think most people were spoiling for a fight long before they even got to the location. Bad day at work/home, a fight with someone else (verbal or physical) unresolved/unfinished. So basically any excuse is good enough, bumping into his girlfriend (_intentionally_) misperceived as a hostile act gives the reason why it's time to beat the crap out of someone.
> ...


To understand aggression we must understand the evolutionary underpinnings that created our aggressive tendencies. In nature there are two main types of aggressive behavior, defensive and predatory. These two categories illustrate the form the aggression takes. There are three main reasons for intra-species aggression among mammals and they are reproduction, hiearchy, and resources

It is fighting for mating rights and fighting for hiearchical standing that we refer to as "Ego". Many people talk about "ego" as if it were a four letter word, in hopes of convincing people not to fight for it. The truth is that many of us have this type of aggression hardwired in to us. When someone cuts off someone else in traffic, and they both begin fighting, they both feel as though the other person is challenging their hiearchical positioning. 

The statement that humans are the only mammals that do this is bizarre. Lets examine wolf behavior. If a low ranking wolf attempts to eat before an alpha wolf, the alpha wolf will attack the low ranking wolf. Is this ego? No, it's natural pack behavior. As we examine primates we see even more intricate hiearchical behavior than in wolf packs.

Likewise, the assumption that only humans engage in warlike behavior against our own species is equally eroneous. Chimpanzees engage in intraspecies group aggression very similar to primative human warfare involving competing groups of chimpanzees. 

Every human war in history can be directly or indirectly attributable to the last intrahuman aggression trigger, resources.

So, in closing, defensive aggression is trying to defend something you already have, hiearchical status, resources, mating rights, or defending life or the life of ones circle of importance. Predatory aggression is trying to take something from someone or something else, hiearchical status, resources or mating rights. Show me aggressive behavior that doesn't fall in to these categories.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 23, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Why fight starts? "Simple" it is a learn behavior. Teach a man to hate, his sons will learn it too! That is why man will never ending the fighting of each other. Blacks and whites will never stop hating each other. The Jew and Muslins will never stop fighing.
> 
> The whole world teaches our chirldren to fight back. So when we grow up and someone 'bumps" us or say something ulgy, "pow" it begins again. never ending story.
> 
> The leaders of the world, sets the examples for all to follow. Do you agree? ...Aloha


Oh, it's worse than that.  If it was simply learned, it could be unlearned.  How do you "unlearn" your genes?


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## masherdong (Feb 25, 2005)

The ones that I have seen, they started by someone took offense to what someone said, road rage, under the influence of a drug/alcohol, stealing other people's property, assaulting a loved one, etc.  Most fights start by people who have a short fuse and blow up about something so small.  So, I think that a person with a temper would end up in a fight most of the time.


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## LexTalinis (Feb 28, 2005)

This is my personal opinion, so you can take it or leave it.  I believe that about 80% of all fights are totally avoidable, 90% never need to become violent.  It is my belief that pride causes most fights.

I have talked myself out of a couple of fights, just by saying, "look buddy, you win, it's not that important to me."

I have nothing to prove, but a lot of people seem that they have to prove thier worth in a fight.  IMO the best self defense is not alowing it to come to blows.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 3, 2005)

LexTalinis said:
			
		

> This is my personal opinion, so you can take it or leave it. I believe that about 80% of all fights are totally avoidable, 90% never need to become violent. It is my belief that pride causes most fights.
> 
> I have talked myself out of a couple of fights, just by saying, "look buddy, you win, it's not that important to me."
> 
> I have nothing to prove, but a lot of people seem that they have to prove thier worth in a fight. IMO the best self defense is not alowing it to come to blows.


Let me lend a little bit of technical insight to your accurate folk wisdom.  When people get angry, their forebrain shuts down and the mid-brain takes over.  The mid-brain is the brain of a mammal, and since communication skills are controlled by the forebrain, the ability to communicate effectively shuts down.  That's why angry people usually don't seem rational...because they aren't.  They are allowing the mammilian brain do the thinking, and when it becomes angry, it only knows "Smash".  

The trick is to get the forebrain thinking again.  Here's a trick I do as a cop.  Don't just give in.  Do something ABSURD.  I usually ask very non-sensical, bizarre questions.  I once asked a guy how many pancakes it took to get to the moon.  You can see the weird expression on their face as they try to sort out what you've just said to them.  Then they start trying to use the forebrain to sort out what you've just said, and the mid-brain relinquishes control.  Absurdity will defuse a conflict.  The more bizarre and absurd the better.  Sing for someone who's mad, tell them a joke.  Do something so bizarre and out of the normal that they'll be confused or even laugh.  I once heard a guy in a bar end a fight because he told the guy who was threatening him that he was a bleeder and a screamer.  I heard another guy challenge his would be attacker to a tap dancing contest instead.


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## Cruentus (Mar 4, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Let me lend a little bit of technical insight to your accurate folk wisdom.  When people get angry, their forebrain shuts down and the mid-brain takes over.  The mid-brain is the brain of a mammal, and since communication skills are controlled by the forebrain, the ability to communicate effectively shuts down.  That's why angry people usually don't seem rational...because they aren't.  They are allowing the mammilian brain do the thinking, and when it becomes angry, it only knows "Smash".
> 
> The trick is to get the forebrain thinking again.  Here's a trick I do as a cop.  Don't just give in.  Do something ABSURD.  I usually ask very non-sensical, bizarre questions.  I once asked a guy how many pancakes it took to get to the moon.  You can see the weird expression on their face as they try to sort out what you've just said to them.  Then they start trying to use the forebrain to sort out what you've just said, and the mid-brain relinquishes control.  Absurdity will defuse a conflict.  The more bizarre and absurd the better.  Sing for someone who's mad, tell them a joke.  Do something so bizarre and out of the normal that they'll be confused or even laugh.  I once heard a guy in a bar end a fight because he told the guy who was threatening him that he was a bleeder and a screamer.  I heard another guy challenge his would be attacker to a tap dancing contest instead.



Makes sense. I have diffused quite a few fights this way...


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

Same here. Once, I had people ready for fighting stop by me doing a "Kermit the Frog" impersonation.

Couples going through separation often have fights that their new aquainrences get involved.


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