# Whats The Point?



## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?

In a very respectfull manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?

Can someone explain the history of this art?
Thank you.

Tarek :asian:


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## nonono90 (Jun 26, 2004)

I am by no means an expert on knife related martial arts, but I'll try and explain why knife training is important. 

1st point: You never know if a person is armed with a weapon. You can make an educated guess from various factors, but you just don't know for sure. Its true that you can kill or seriously injure a person very easily with empty hands, but that is even more true with the knife. 

Say someone picks a fight with you, and you are forced to fight the person. If the opponent is competent it is most likely he will not allow you to know he is armed and intends to use his weapon. You throw your attack, lets say something like a punching combo, jab, cross hook. You throw a jab, he parries and uses his knife to slash open your forearm, bi or tri. This is known as gunting in the FMA. Through that motion he limits your ability to deliver impact techniques. Real basic example

Another one, say you are fighting someone and you both goto the ground. Best scenario you fall into a joint lock/break or choke. Lets say you have the mount or the individuals back. While you are going for your submission or pummeling him, he will access his knife. Grappling is a great defense but in an amred encounter your limbs are almost always within easy access to an oppenents hands. Lets say you have his back and are trying to choke him out with a Guilitine(sp?). He takes his knife out of his pocket, slashes your femoral artery open, on either one of your legs, or he begins thrusting the knife into your kidneys, or cutting your arms. Not even to mention stabing you in the face(eyeballs) or cutting the jugular. Any where that his hand can touch could be a cut. 

Point 2: If you do not understand how to fight with a knife, how do you expect to know how to defend. Best way to exemplify this is to look at empty hand skills. After training for some time you start to understand the dynamics of empty hand fighting. You know that you must be in range for the punch to land. So you sit out of range, and either tempt the opponent to fire a punch at you, or you make your own entry. That is a very basic tactic but many untrained/trained people do not understand it. Now imagine if someone was fighting you who did not understand the importance of range. You would have a huge advantage. If you do not know how the effectively attack with a knife you cannot know how to effectively defend.

About the knife carry....
If you are serious about self defense you will make sure to have a multi-level self defense strategy. I saw you did aikido, I do as well. For me my first level of self defense is to uses my pain compliance and joint locks to control an oppenent, if i feel that will be safe for me to do and effective. Secondary level comes impact techniques, third comes impact techniques to vital targets(eyeballs, throat, groin, joints) and joint breaks, then lastly the use of weapons. This is by no means a static strategy, really depends on the situation. Maybe its a female of 120 pounds trying to attack me and i use level one or it could be a 6'6" 300pounder that has me in the mount pounding my brains in. What I am saying is that a knife is a good thing to add to your self defense strategy because you will not always be able to defend yourself using empty hand tactics against an armed or unarmed attack.


I think you would be suprised how many people carry knives. Most that I see are in the form of folders which are pretty easy to spot. Most people carry them in pants pockets. If you see a metalic, silver/polished or black clip, probably a knife. I would say I notice a couple people each day carrying knives when I am around town. 


Many people serious about self defense make sure to carry weapons when ever they leave the house, some even carry in the house. 

If you are attempting to attack someone with a knife and they disarm you that should be enough to convince you that you need to either A run like hell or B be prepared to die. In a real life situation against a trained knife fighter, disarms by an unarmed person are very difficult. Atleast in my opinion and experience playing around with other and training knives. If a person disarms you that means that they probably have a lot higher skill level and will "woop" you. Only studying knife fighting is a fault in self defense training just like only training open hand or stand up skills. But most knife fighting systems and tactics transfer over to empty hand because the knife is only an extention of the arm.

Another thing to concider is why you train, for the artistic aspect or self defense?

Hope this gave you something to think about.


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

nonono90 said:
			
		

> I am by no means an expert on knife related martial arts, but I'll try and explain why knife training is important.
> 
> 1st point: You never know if a person is armed with a weapon. You can make an educated guess from various factors, but you just don't know for sure. Its true that you can kill or seriously injure a person very easily with empty hands, but that is even more true with the knife.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for that great insight. I have learned alot from this post and have a new understanding on this style now.

Like I said before a "SUPERB" Martial Artist must be a multi dimentional fighter and never limited or trapped in one specific style.
Thanks again,
 Tarek:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 26, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?
> 
> In a very respectfull manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?
> 
> ...


Go take a look in your kitchen and count how many knives are in there. Times that by every houshold in the world, add the occasional hunting knife, box cutter, exacto knife, and razor blade. Then ask your self again,"what is the point?". :asian:  :asian: 
Sean


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Go take a look in your kitchen and count how many knives are in there. Times that by every houshold in the world, add the occasional hunting knife, box cutter, exacto knife, and razor blade. Then ask your self again,"what is the point?". :asian: :asian:
> Sean


Meaning that the "bad guys" could use the knife as well as the martial art to hurt others?

Not sure if that was what you were trying to say, can you clear it up.

Thanks

Tarek


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## nonono90 (Jun 26, 2004)

LittleDragon,

You might want to get together with a few of your buddies that you train with and play around with some knives. **Important** do not use real knives, either use training blades or my personal favorite butter knife with duct tape over the blade. Work through some self defense progressions experimenting with different situations. Such as 1 on 1 with armed opponent, 1 on 3, groundfighting etc. Best way to see how to work with the knife. I'm glade my post expanded your understanding of the knife.

Might want to use eyeprotection if you start picking up the pace and intensity!


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

nonono90 said:
			
		

> LittleDragon,
> 
> You might want to get together with a few of your buddies that you train with and play around with some knives. **Important** do not use real knives, either use training blades or my personal favorite butter knife with duct tape over the blade. Work through some self defense progressions experimenting with different situations. Such as 1 on 1 with armed opponent, 1 on 3, groundfighting etc. Best way to see how to work with the knife. I'm glade my post expanded your understanding of the knife.
> 
> Might want to use eyeprotection if you start picking up the pace and intensity!


Thats a great idea! I already teach knife self defense to my friends but have never fought knife to knife. Thank you for the suggestion.

Tarek


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## Guro Harold (Jun 26, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Thats a great idea! I already teach knife self defense to my friends but have never fought knife to knife. Thank you for the suggestion.
> 
> Tarek



Even though I train in the knife arts, suppositely, there are not alot of knife on knife or stick on stick encounters.

nonono90 had some great safety info and scenarios.

The most realistic is that only one person is armed with the blade or the weapons are mixed-matched.

I think that Filipino martial arts and tactical combatives are one of the best curriculums of learning techniques for realistic self-defense with a knife.

Its great that you are always learning, keep it up!

Palusut


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Even though I train in the knife arts, suppositely, there are not alot of knife on knife or stick on stick encounters.
> 
> nonono90 had some great safety info and scenarios.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much.

When posting, the members who posted to this thread make it sound like Kinfe martial arts also teaches how to take away a kinfe and defend against a knife as well as using one? Is that true?

If so do they show you how to disable someone with a knife using empty hands in otherwords with just your bare hands?

Thanks.

-No one can master the martial arts because we are all students-
Tarek :asian:


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

I also have another question, what are the knife arts called? Is there a specific name for them?


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## Guro Harold (Jun 26, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I also have another question, what are the knife arts called? Is there a specific name for them?


Filipino Martial Arts and tactical combative curriculums are some of the programs that cover knife training.


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## DoxN4cer (Jun 27, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?
> 
> In a very respectfull manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?
> 
> ...



The best way to learn to defend against a knife is to learn to fight with one.

Disarming... yes, it's possible. Consider this though; what happens to your had if you stick it in a blender? Trying to disarm a determined aggressor with a knife is a lot like that. 

It is preferable to damage the limb that is weilding that weapon. Old-timers would aim to cut the thumb off of their opponents weapon hand. Now THAT's a disarm. The pre-cursor to CSSD Bio-Mechanical Cutting.

Tim Kashino


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## Littledragon (Jun 27, 2004)

Thank you all for the great insight, I love this place because as a martial artist this site is our teacher. 


Thanks

Tarek :asian:


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## Littledragon (Jun 27, 2004)

Answering my question to if these knife arts has a name, I researched and found out that the one type of Phillippiean knife martial art is called sayoc kail correct?

Tarek


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## arnisador (Jun 27, 2004)

Yes, it's known for its emphasis on the blade, but many other Filipino arts--I daresay the majority--teach it also.


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## Littledragon (Jun 27, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, it's known for its emphasis on the blade, but many other Filipino arts--I daresay the majority--teach it also.


Cool. Thanks for the info.


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## KenpoTex (Jun 28, 2004)

Great thread...there have been some good posts!  Here's my $0.02.  
Why Train with a knife?  Several reasons:  1. Because in the hands of someone who knows how to use one (or in the hands of a complete idiot), a knife is a devastating weapon.  In my personal opinion, at close quarters (striking range or trapping range) the knife is probably the most dangerous weapon you can encounter.  2. Knives are one of the few weapons that can be carried almost anywhere.  Granted, there are some places you can't carry one (airports, gov. buildings, etc.) and different states have different laws regarding type, action, and blade length, but for the most part you can find one (or two or three ) that you can carry.  And like nonono90 said, they are just an extra tool in your S.D. toolbox.
  On the subject of knife defenses I have four rules: 1. don't make someone mad enough to pull a knife on you.  2. If they do, run like hell.  3. If you can't run, shoot them ("never bring a knife to a gun fight"). 4. If you can't shoot them pull your own knife and hopefully kill them before they kill you. (and if you don't even have a knife, R.I.P. ) 


			
				nonono90 said:
			
		

> In a real life situation against a trained knife fighter, disarms by an unarmed person are very difficult. Atleast in my opinion and experience playing around with other and training knives.


  I agree except that I would also say that in a "real life situation" against an _untrained_ knife-fighter, disarms by a highly trained unarmed person would be difficult.  Even if you succeed in disarming them, you are probably (if not definately) going to get cut in the process which brings us back to my first 4 rules for defense against an armed attacker (see above).  
  To be clear, I'm not dismissing knife training (I love it) or saying that defensive tecniques will never work ('cause it has happened), I'm just making the point that a knife is a very formidable weapon regardless of whether your attacker is highly trained or not.


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## Littledragon (Jun 28, 2004)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Great thread...there have been some good posts! Here's my $0.02.
> Why Train with a knife? Several reasons: 1. Because in the hands of someone who knows how to use one (or in the hands of a complete idiot), a knife is a devastating weapon. In my personal opinion, at close quarters (striking range or trapping range) the knife is probably the most dangerous weapon you can encounter. 2. Knives are one of the few weapons that can be carried almost anywhere. Granted, there are some places you can't carry one (airports, gov. buildings, etc.) and different states have different laws regarding type, action, and blade length, but for the most part you can find one (or two or three ) that you can carry. And like nonono90 said, they are just an extra tool in your S.D. toolbox.
> On the subject of knife defenses I have four rules: 1. don't make someone mad enough to pull a knife on you. 2. If they do, run like hell. 3. If you can't run, shoot them ("never bring a knife to a gun fight"). 4. If you can't shoot them pull your own knife and hopefully kill them before they kill you. (and if you don't even have a knife, R.I.P. )
> I agree except that I would also say that in a "real life situation" against an _untrained_ knife-fighter, disarms by a highly trained unarmed person would be difficult. Even if you succeed in disarming them, you are probably (if not definately) going to get cut in the process which brings us back to my first 4 rules for defense against an armed attacker (see above).
> To be clear, I'm not dismissing knife training (I love it) or saying that defensive tecniques will never work ('cause it has happened), I'm just making the point that a knife is a very formidable weapon regardless of whether your attacker is highly trained or not.


Some good info thank you all for posting and me being able to absorb what is usefull. I learn something new about martial arts here everyday.

Respectfully,
 Tarek


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## shesulsa (Jun 28, 2004)

I would have to agree that the way most empty-hand-against-knife- defense techniques I've learned are much like how we learn joint locks in the beginning.  Your partner is standing near you statically and jabs a knife your way in a thrusting manner or steps in for an over head, downward strike.

 When someone goes for a weapon, even if they are not experienced, 99.9% of them are COMMITTED to using deadly or injuring force, so this is going to happen FAST.  If you happen to fight an experienced knife fighter, he is going to retract the weapon so quickly you'd likely be more seriuosly hurt by trying to disarm him/her...then they can follow up while you're holding your bleeding flesh and howling with the unexpected pain.

 About half of all elementary school kids I know and about 80% of all junior high/middle school kids I know have seen someone at school carrying a knife.  It's a very popular and deadly weapon.

 As for carrying it anywhere, I'm a woman and have heard of other women clipping knifes to the underwire section of their bras and making it through airport security (though I've never tried this).  I keep several clipped to my underthings at all times.  I've been known to sleep that way.

 I understand your questioning this.  I used to abhore trying to train with knives and guns, thinking it diluted the arts.  However, arts have evolved with time - always, actually - and I no longer think it inappropriate to train with as many different kinds of weapons as possible.

 Take a good look inside your sister's or girlfriend's purse and see what you can find in there to be used as a weapon.  Here's some examples - credit card, comb, metal writing pen (great for jabbing, pressure point application in joint locks), perfume spray (ever get any in your eyes?  OUCH!)...just about anything that is not a weapon can be used as one much like a knife.

 In the Korean style I study, defense against knives is part of the curriculum.


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## shesulsa (Jun 28, 2004)

Also, familiarization is important with any weapon you decide to add to your arsenal be it knife, gun, nunchaku, stick, etcetera.

 If you are taking martial arts for self-defense purposes (in it to win it), I think it's important to understand what the bad guy (or other guy) has and how to use it if you manage to get it away from them.

 Good luck and HWARANG!!


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## OULobo (Jun 28, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?
> 
> In a very respectfull manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?
> 
> ...



Ahh. . . my favorite subject. . . sharp pointy things, or this particular sub-catagory, short sharp pointy things that cut. 

Am I always going to have a knife, no, but I do have one most of the time. The knife arts are not only about the knife. The knife is a center and starting point for some arts. Some FMAs teach that the art is the same and still effective with or without the blade. Another point is that a punch is nice, but a punch with a knife pointed at your target is much better, well mabey not better for the guy getting punched. As for getting the knife taken away, well that's why I carry two or three or four or. . . plus most knifers know that the knife is your life, if you lose it or the other guy gets it, you got trouble. So we train real hard on weapon retention.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 28, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?
> 
> In a very respectful manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, *I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?*Tarek :asian:



I'll just add one thing to all that has been said so far...what my oldest brother taught me when I was younger. 
The why is simple: "Because there is no such  thing as a fair fight." 

 :asian:


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## Cruentus (Jun 28, 2004)

To not learn how to deal with weapons in self defense, simply put, is not prudent self defense at all.

On the surface...it seems that weapon encounters, or blade encounters, are not statistically probable because in only about 1/3 of violent crimes, weapons are involved, and that includes firearms. So it seems that you have a 2/3 chance of there not being a weapon involved if you are in a violent encounter.

However, it is all about how you look at the stats. The violent crimes included in these stats are domestic violence, child abuse, and rape (including date rape). These three make up the majority of all violent crime, and weapons are generally not used in these crimes. So...the fact is, if you are an adult, and not subject or likely to be in a domestic violence or date rape situation, then most likely if you are in a violent encounter, it WILL involve a weapon. Old fashioned "fist fights" just don't happen anymore.

Now, this covers all weapons including firearms. However, Firearms only make up about 1/3 of weapon encounters. So, if your like me, if your in a violent encounter a weapon will most likely be involved, and most likely it wont be a firearm. So...whats left? A knife, blunt object, or improvised weapon of some sort.

So...it is only good self defense to include weapons, (both sharp and blunt objects) in your training.

My take...

 :asian:


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## Emptyglass (Jun 28, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?
> 
> Tarek :asian:



Hi Tarek:

These are very good questions. Honestly, my question for you what is your goal in learning any martial art? Health, self-defense, self-esteem, relaxation, becoming an artist?

If you are doing this primarily for self-defense, then learning to use and defend against a knife in at least a rudimentary fashion is a must in my mind. Knives are easily accessible, easy to conceal, force multiplying tools which become very deadly in even a child's hand.

I feel they are worth at least some serious study and practice in good, solid, simple defenses if you have no interest in using one as a defensive weapon (which is absolutely fine by the way).

Personally I train in the martial arts primarily for self-defense and  the value of expressing myself through them. Also there is a strong academic interest as well. Edged tools are a part of that training and I feel better about my safety because of it.

If you are involved in learning a martial art for the other reasons, then there is absolutely no reason for you to address knife training if you feel comfortable that you would be safe without it. That is a personal (and possibly ethical) decision only you can make.

If you want to read some interesting, no bull information about knife combatives, fighting and use, check out this web page:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

I've found it very useful and interesting reading.

Best of of luck,

Rich Curren


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## Feisty Mouse (Jun 28, 2004)

Others who have posted here have already made excellent points - including the close-quarters and rapid nature of fighting with a knife, the fact that many people carry them, and so forth.

I would also just add that, as part of my FMA training, not only does the dagger training allow me to train in a different range (than say some or most of the stick training), but with a bladed weapon come different challenges and possibilities.  I learn because it is fascinating to me, and I want to learn the art.  But it also, like with other MA training, pushes me to think about how variable a situation can become.  Suddenly the other person draws a knife out of nowhere.  Suddenly I draw mine.  Now what happens?  Not fun for a real-life situation, but thinking about it and working it in class is challenging. 
And if you so choose, you could be armed with a knife probably 90% of the time, at least.


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## Flatlander (Jun 28, 2004)

It took me an hour to find this, because I forgot where it was.  Again, I say, there is value in reading historical threads.  None the less, this post was made by a gentleman who goes by Tulisan, and, without his permission, I am going to show you the part of the post that really illustrates "the point".  Thank you Paul, for posting this in the first place.  It was a discussion about the effectiveness of a simple boxcutter....



> With all due respect, a semi-trained knife player would kill you with one of those without a whole lot of problems.
> 
> The tool is razor sharp, and can sever most major arteries, despite what you might think. You don't need a large blade to do this. Your inside arms, neck, and inside leg arteries could all cut to pieces with ease.
> 
> ...


See the point?
:asian:


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## Guro Harold (Jun 29, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> It took me an hour to find this, because I forgot where it was.  Again, I say, there is value in reading historical threads.  None the less, this post was made by a gentleman who goes by Tulisan, and, without his permission, I am going to show you the part of the post that really illustrates "the point".  Thank you Paul, for posting this in the first place.  It was a discussion about the effectiveness of a simple boxcutter....
> 
> 
> See the point?
> :asian:


Hi Flatlander,

Great research!

This is not a Mod request but if possible could you copy the link so that others can reference the original thread.  That way it will save the headache that you went though for others.

Actually, That link can be used for a couple of other threads as well.

Thanks,

Palusut


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## dohap (Jun 29, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Also, familiarization is important with any weapon you decide to add to your arsenal be it knife, gun, nunchaku, stick, etcetera.
> 
> If you are taking martial arts for self-defense purposes (in it to win it), I think it's important to understand what the bad guy (or other guy) has and how to use it if you manage to get it away from them.
> 
> Good luck and HWARANG!!




SheSulsa: who is Your teacher?


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## shesulsa (Jun 29, 2004)

dohap said:
			
		

> SheSulsa: who is Your teacher?


 Why do you ask?


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## dohap (Jun 29, 2004)

just ask about the lineage


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## mcjon77 (Jun 29, 2004)

The thing I like about the FMA is that in training with knives and sticks you are training with weapons that are literally everywhere.  This is pretty obvious with a stick, but just as true with a knife.  One thing I like to keep in mind when thinking about a knife is that a knife can be thought of as any hand held object that punctures the flesh through cutting and/or stabbing.  One could use a piece of broken glass or metal and sometimes even plastic (crack a CD in half and notice the edges on it).  If you absolutely had to have a cutting instrument RIGHT NOW you could simply break the monitor you are reading this post on and use the glass from the screen as an improvised bladed weapon.

I was watching a knife fighting DVD last night that focused on solo drills.  One was a 10 angle stabbing drill that can be done on a wooden post to develop power.  In watching that I thought "Hell, I don't need a knife to practice that.  I can can do that with a screwdriver."  Then the follow up thought was that If I could do it with a screwdriver on something as hard as wood, I could use a screwdriver, a pen or even a pencil on something as soft as flesh.  You can take a pen or pencil practically anywhere.

Jon


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## Littledragon (Jun 29, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Hi Tarek:
> 
> These are very good questions. Honestly, my question for you what is your goal in learning any martial art? Health, self-defense, self-esteem, relaxation, becoming an artist?
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link. Some good stuff.

My goal is for self-defense and to be the best.


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## shesulsa (Jun 29, 2004)

dohap said:
			
		

> just ask about the lineage


 Who is yours, Sir?


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## shesulsa (Jul 5, 2004)

Dohap -

 I was curious - some international websites have English pages - I don't mean to be an ignorant, monolingual American, but I would very much like to read your site.  I noticed you referenced Mr. DeAlba's School, Bob Duggan's Society and the WHRDA.  So I'm curious - may I ask if you are a WHRDA member?

 She-Sulsa


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## dohap (Jul 6, 2004)

Currently I'm not a WHRDA member, although I was long time ago.
My teacher in Korean arts is GM DeAlba.
Web site is going to be changed soon due to some teaching changes, so English version is coming also.


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## Trent (Jul 6, 2004)

All good points brought up in previous posts, and Sayoc Kali is an excellent knife art.  Much of what they do looks alot like what we do.  It has been said, "There is no silat without the knife."

Another thing knife training will do is amp up your martial methodology.  Meaning, it will quite glaringly show holes in your defenses, improper angulation, footwork and entries allowing a potentially fatal encounter as any hit with a good, sharp knife is damaging, and possibly lethal.  Some arts or individuals will take a hit on the way in thinking their training will allow them to win once the clinch is made; a foolish proposition if the other guy has a knife.  And many people carry knives for various reasons.  Ones with nefarious intent may not even show you the blade except as they are taking it out for another stab.  It helps self-defense tactics and awareness to keep these things in mind as well.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 6, 2004)

Fantastic thread! I've only been seriously knife training for the last three years and I apreciate everyones take on the subject.I did a little experiment when I first started getting serious about this that was very educational.We experimented with felt markers instead of knives.We tried defending against knife attackers and one on one knife fights.After examining all the marks on us and realising what kind of injuries they cause and considering how they would effect us if they were real cuts,I looked at it completely differently.


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## shesulsa (Jul 6, 2004)

I've heard of training with markers - another way would be to use colored, oil-free powder on a wooden knife covered with chamois - it washes out of uniforms.


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## arnisador (Jul 6, 2004)

There's a training knife out there that advises using lipstick:
http://www.nolieblades.com/products.php




> The No Lie Blade Kit ships with cosmetics grade lipstick however you may use other marking media's such as chalk, children's washable paints, non permanent inks, etc. We chose Lipstick because it meets all of the following criteria: Non-Toxic, multi-colored, inexpenive, easily purchased anywhere in the world, non-drying, populates the felt to large degree resulting in continous marking aprox. 15 to 20 slashes per blade side.


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## Flatlander (Jul 6, 2004)

Advisable to change clothes before leaving training, after using these types of methods. Don't want to freak the people out.


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## shesulsa (Jul 6, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Advisable to change clothes before leaving training, after using these types of methods. Don't want to freak the people out.


 LOL - You could keep a uniform or set of clothes just for doing this training - especially with lipstick - doesn't wash out well.  Wear your old white dobak...hehehe - truth-teller, that!


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## JPR (Jul 8, 2004)

A reason to train with a knife or in a knife art is that it teaches a whole different type of body mechanics.  Knife fighting involves smaller body shifting and turning which a striking art usually doesn't need.  



Knife work also teaches a different respect for ranges.  Crashing into close range with an experienced knifer isn't always the wisest move even if you are a great infighter.  A good knifer will act like a Cuisinart and have you sliced up quickly in close range.



As to disarms, theory has it that as an initial move a disarm isn't going to be too successful.  However, soften up the wielder with strikes or limb destruction(s) and a disarm becomes much more viable.  As a different thread it would be interesting to hear from anyone unfortunate enough to be involved in a real knife fight but fortunate enough to disarm their opponent.



JPR


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