# Itosu's TRUE lineage?



## Muwubu16858 (May 27, 2009)

I know that Itosu Anko is credited with being a disciple of Matsumura Soken, but what do you believe? I cut and pasted this from http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=1, and would like to know what everyone else thinks about this and why?




> In his 1932 book, "Watashi no Tode Jutsu," Motobu is quoted as saying: "Sensei Itosu was a pupil of Sensei Matsumura, but he was disliked by his teacher for he was very slow (speed of movement). There (in the dojo) for although Itosu sensei was diligent in his practice his teacher did not care about him so he (Itsou) left and went to sensei Nagahama."


 

The rest of the article can be found here.


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## searcher (May 27, 2009)

Many of the Master of old bounced around to different instructors.  It was a common thing.


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## twendkata71 (May 28, 2009)

*That is a well written article. And it sounds believable enough. karate ka of that period were in many cases, incouraged by their masters to go to other teachers and learn of their styles. I has only been in modern times when Karate students were told, made to, whatever. to only study one style of karate and in some cases with only one teacher. *
*Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, Ohtsuka and Konishi all trained with several teachers and in some cases exchanged knowledge between each other. *
*After karate started being commercialized that students were told not to train with other teachers and styles. *
*All I know is that Itosu had a great influence on most of the karate ka of his day and after. *
*Most styles of karate today teach Pinan/ or Heian kata that he created. Excluding Naha te(Goju ryu, Uechi ryu, To'on ryu) which were of Hiagoanna lineage. *


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## punisher73 (May 28, 2009)

I am not doubting that Itosu studied under the other masters.  I DO doubt about the reason "why".

Motobu was a student of Itosu.  Itosu later refused to teach him anymore because of complaints about Motbu going out and picking fights with what he was being taught.  It sounds to me more like Motobu trying to get his digs in on his old teacher and bad mouth him about why he studied with others.


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## Muwubu16858 (May 28, 2009)

Then what about what funakoshi had to say? I have his 1922 book "Ryu Kyu Kenpo Tode," and he says Azato follows the line of Matsumura, and Itosu the line of Matsumura.


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## Makalakumu (May 28, 2009)

Muwubu16858 said:


> Then what about what funakoshi had to say? I have his 1922 book "Ryu Kyu Kenpo Tode," and he says Azato follows the line of Matsumura, and Itosu the line of Matsumura.



It's an interesting view and it goes to show us how some things never change.  LOL!

I wonder if you could compare the karate of Matsumura and Nagahama and see the differences?


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## twendkata71 (May 28, 2009)

*Well Nagahama and Matsumora Kosanku both taught Tomari te, which now has been blended into many shorin ryu styles. You would see more of a difference or elements of Tomari te in Okinawan Kenpo, or ryukyu kempo. *
*Most of the teachers that were students of Itosu taught karate that was more of shuri te . Which leads me to believe that Itosu's teachings were more shuri te and less tomari te, Especially since Itosu did not teach the tomari te kata. *
*You do see tomari te influence in what kyan Chotoku taught to Nagamine Shoshin and what he taught in his Matsubayashi ryu.*
*Kyan was a student of Itosu Ankoh as well as Oyadomori and Matsumora who were tomari te/ or a blend of tomari and shuri te. *
*It would not suprise me if Motobu was badmouthing his teacher. He was supposedly also trained with Matsumura directly, as the legend goes many teachers on Okinawa refuse to teach Motobu because of his brawling ways of testing his technique.  I believe that if his father had actually taught him the family style of Ti he would not have went around looking to learn te from his less than honorable ways. Later in life Motobu did settle down and became a mature master of karate. Not incouraging his student to do as he did. *
*If in fact Itosu did push him away from instruction, Motobu would have a great deal of resentment and probably would have embellished facts, or made up things to make his former sensei look bad. Motobu did have a bit of a vengeful streak from what I have read. *


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## TimoS (May 28, 2009)

Muwubu16858 said:


> I know that Itosu Anko is credited with being a disciple of Matsumura Soken, but what do you believe? I cut and pasted this from http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=1, and would like to know what everyone else thinks about this and why?



This is pretty much what I've been told also. Bushi Matsumura's "heir" was Azato, and Itosu learned mostly from Gusukuma (who he in turn really was, is something we just don't know), but also from Matsumura and Nagahama


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## Muwubu16858 (May 29, 2009)

Itosu-ha Kata:

Pinan 1-5
Naihanchin 1-3
Jitte
Jiin
Jion
Bassai Dai
Bassai Sho
Kusanku Dai
Kusanku Sho
Shiho Kusanku
Rohai 1-3
Chinto
Chinte
Chinshu
Wanshu
Wandaun(Wando)
Gojushiho

If he was really the disciple of Matsumura Sokon, why wasn't Matsumura no Seisan taught by Itosu to his students?

Matsumura-ha:



> "Matsumura is credited with passing on the Sh&#333;rin-ry&#363; Kemp&#333;-karate _kata_ known as _naihanchi_ I & II, _passai_, _seisan_, _chint&#333;_, _goj&#363;shiho_, _kusanku_ (the embodiment of _kusanku'_s teaching as passed on to Tode Sakugawa) and _hakutsuru_."-wikipedia


 
If Gusukuma was his main teacher, it is possible Itosu learned some of the Matsumura kata from Azato, whom Funakoshi says were very good friends.


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## Cirdan (May 29, 2009)

Interesting stuff, thanks!


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## Makalakumu (May 29, 2009)

So, Itosu was too slow and wasn't good enough to be a student of Matsumura.  That's a hard claim to support.  Do we have any lineage's of karate that can actually trace their way back to Matsumura?  How do these compare to Itosu-Te?  I'm guessing that practitioners of both styles are skilled.  

Matsumura may not have been Itosu's main teacher, but does this mean that the influence of his karate was limited?  How limited?  Where can you see it, other then the missing seisan?


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## Muwubu16858 (May 29, 2009)

As funakoshi explains in his biography, the karate of Azato, who followed Matsumura's style, was that the arms and legs should be regarded as swords, and he would evade an attack and counter quickly. Itosu, however, would advise Funakoshi to train his body so that it can withstand any blow, no matter how powerful, which sounds to me like some of the conditioning exersizes of Naha-te, which, if you read Nagamine Shoshin's book on the Great Okinawan Masters, Nagahama, Itosu's teacher, was from Naha.


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## Makalakumu (May 29, 2009)

Muwubu16858 said:


> As funakoshi explains in his biography, the karate of Azato, who followed Matsumura's style, was that the arms and legs should be regarded as swords, and he would evade an attack and counter quickly. Itosu, however, would advise Funakoshi to train his body so that it can withstand any blow, no matter how powerful, which sounds to me like some of the conditioning exersizes of Naha-te, which, if you read Nagamine Shoshin's book on the Great Okinawan Masters, Nagahama, Itosu's teacher, was from Naha.



Itosu lineage kata are still very light and mobile and there are few of the classical naha conditioning and strengthening exercises in Itosu-te systems.  So, this distinction becomes harder to support.  From a functional point of view, does the distinction really exist?


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## Muwubu16858 (May 29, 2009)

Then again, most lineages are watered down, and missing elements from their true origens, SO its no surprise to see these elements no longer in Itosu-ryu, Shito-ryu and other Itosu-based systems, as I'm more than sure no one here can tell me which skills were 100% taught by Matsumura, either.


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## Makalakumu (May 29, 2009)

Muwubu16858 said:


> Then again, most lineages are watered down, and missing elements from their true origens, SO its no surprise to see these elements no longer in Itosu-ryu, Shito-ryu and other Itosu-based systems, as I'm more than sure no one here can tell me which skills were 100% taught by Matsumura, either.



I thought Hohan Sokon was probably the closest we could get to seeing what Matsumura Te looked like, but *TimoS* says that is debatable.  If the history they claim is correct, then that style of Shorin Ryu is probably going to be the closest...and would probably be the best place to see what Matsumura Te looked like.


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## TimoS (May 30, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> I thought Hohan Sokon was probably the closest we could get to seeing what Matsumura Te looked like, but *TimoS* says that is debatable



The reason I said it is debatable is that the existense of Nabe Matsumura has not, to my knowledge, been proven. Hohan Soken is said to have learned from him, but why is there no mention of him anywhere else?


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## TimoS (May 30, 2009)

Muwubu16858 said:


> as I'm more than sure no one here can tell me which skills were 100% taught by Matsumura, either.



100% sure, no, but almost anyway: the two Shorin ryu kata Seisan and Gojushiho are known to have been taught by Matsumura


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## Makalakumu (May 30, 2009)

TimoS said:


> The reason I said it is debatable is that the existense of Nabe Matsumura has not, to my knowledge, been proven. Hohan Soken is said to have learned from him, but why is there no mention of him anywhere else?



Is there some research that shows Hohan Sokon learned from some where else?


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## TimoS (May 30, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Is there some research that shows Hohan Sokon learned from some where else?



Don't know about research, I could check, but based on what I've heard, his karate was pretty much Itosu's karate or rather Chibana's karate. Apparently at least some of the senior students of Chibana are saying this. Matsumura Seito currently contains also some of Kyan's karate in it, courtesy of Fusei Kise (such as kata Ananku, which was created by Kyan). 
Here are, however, some other inconsistencies as to why the story of learning from Bushi Matsumura is a debatable:


the kata that Hohan Soken taught contain some that we know with relative certainty were not taught by Bushi Matsumura. The kata that are known to have been taught by Bushi Matsumura are Seisan, Gojushiho, Kusanku and Naifanchi. However, Hohan Soken also taught Chinto, Rohai and Wansu, all "Tomarite" kata. Where did those come from? It is likely that Matsumura knew at least Chinto, but apparently he never taught it to anyone. Maybe he didn't know it all that well, and was just familiar with it.
Additionally Hohan Soken taught at least two Pinan kata. Where did those come from? Because with almost absolute certainty we can say that Bushi Matsumura did not have those
The most "damning" evidence to me is the physical appearance of kata. Let's look at kata Chinto: Hohan Soken performing Chinto versus Shorin ryu Shidokan Chinto (Shorin ryu Shidokan is the Shorin school of Katsuya Miyahira, a student of Chibana). To my eye they look very similar. Now comparing those to Seibukan version and the differences in execution come even more apparent.
Also, Matsumura Seito apparently teaches two versions of at least Passai kata (Sho and Dai), another "trademark" of the Itosu lineage
To me, the logical explanation for these is that Hohan Soken learned karate from Chibana. As to why he would feel to need to fabricate the lineage, I honestly don't know (if that is what actually happened, after all, I'm just speculating). He certainly wouldn't be the first nor the last to do so. 
It all comes down to whose story you choose to believe. I've "chosen" to believe that Nabe Matsumura most likely didn't exist, based on the evidence above and discussions with my seniors. If anyone disagrees with me, I would love see their evidence


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## twendkata71 (May 30, 2009)

*Perhaps there is no mention of Matsumura Nabe, because , one he did not teach on a public basis. Two not all sensei on Okinawa are well know,and for the time period it was very common to teach personally at one's home. If he ony taught a couple of students or one student(family member) as was the custom of several Ti Masters, and Te masters, passing the knowledge to family members only, then it would make sense that he would not be well known. *
*I'm just saying. I don't know either way. Only going on sources I have talked to in the Matsumura Seito and Matsumura Kenpo community. *
*On the other question. Soken Hohan in addition to training with his uncle Matsumura Nabe. Also trained with Mabuni Kenwa of Shito ryu karate do after returning from Argentina.. Perhaps would explain why he started teaching more than one Rohai, and the Pinan kata series and more than one Naihanchi. Another legend says that Soken may have met and learned from Motobu Choki before leaving Okinawa for Argentina.  Have no idea if that one is true. Have not found a valid source to confirm or deny that.  Most say that he only trained with Matsumura Nabe(don't think Nabe was his actual name)*


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## TimoS (May 30, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *Perhaps there is no mention of Matsumura Nabe, because , one he did not teach on a public basis. Two not all sensei on Okinawa are well know,and for the time period it was very common to teach personally at one's home*



Well, yes, but that doesn't explain why the other students of Sokon Matsumura seem to be totally unaware of his existense. No mention of him anywhere


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## searcher (May 30, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Well, yes, but that doesn't explain why the other students of Sokon Matsumura seem to be totally unaware of his existense. No mention of him anywhere


 


"Red-headed step child" thing going on?     We will never know for sure, but maybe he was an outcast from the main family.    We have seen it time and again where the eldest gets the best and the 2nd through Nth child get passed over.    It happened to Choki Motobu and could have happened with Nabe as well.


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## twendkata71 (May 30, 2009)

*This is true, he was supposedly the grandson of Matsumura Sokon, not his son. There are many karate sensei on Okinawa that kept their knowledge of karate, or the fact that they trained a secret. Either out of the need for safety, or not wanting to be bothered by others wanting to learn. Karate is a very  personal thing. And during that time period, at least before the start of the 20th century, it was not allowed to be an openly taught or studied art. Many kept their training a secret. Funakoshi spoke of this in his book 'Karate do my way of life'. When Okinawa was taken over by the Japanese, they did not encourage the practice of such indigenous martial arts, or civil fighting traditions. Especially those of Chinese origin. And outlawed the practice of them. It was later when the Japanese saw value in such arts like karate that it was allowed to be openly practiced. Also in many cases the karate pracitioners of the time kept their practice secret because they did not want others to learn their secrets. Especially  the ruling Samurai. I have read that they could have been killed by the samurai if it were found out that they were practicing martial arts. *
*To this end is why I believe that most if not all kata have so many hidden elements, not easily seen by the novice or layman. What are your thoughts?*


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## Jin Gang (May 30, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *This is true, he was supposedly the grandson of Matsumura Sokon, not his son. There are many karate sensei on Okinawa that kept their knowledge of karate, or the fact that they trained a secret. Either out of the need for safety, or not wanting to be bothered by others wanting to learn. Karate is a very personal thing. And during that time period, at least before the start of the 20th century, it was not allowed to be an openly taught or studied art. Many kept their training a secret. Funakoshi spoke of this in his book 'Karate do my way of life'. When Okinawa was taken over by the Japanese, they did not encourage the practice of such indigenous martial arts, or civil fighting traditions. Especially those of Chinese origin. And outlawed the practice of them. It was later when the Japanese saw value in such arts like karate that it was allowed to be openly practiced. Also in many cases the karate pracitioners of the time kept their practice secret because they did not want others to learn their secrets. Especially the ruling Samurai. I have read that they could have been killed by the samurai if it were found out that they were practicing martial arts. *
> *To this end is why I believe that most if not all kata have so many hidden elements, not easily seen by the novice or layman. What are your thoughts?*


 
I don't think it's accurate to say that before the start of the 20th century karate had to be practiced secretly.  I think it is largely a myth, that martial arts were not allowed to be taught openly.  Okinawa was invaded by Satsuma clan in 1609.  If there was any time that martial arts practice would have been restricted by "samurai", it would have been shortly after this time.  Also, during this period Okinawa retained quite a bit of autonomy in order that it might continue its profitable trade with China (which would not trade directly with Japan, officially).  It is doubtful that there were any strictly enforced rules about practicing martial arts, since the policing and rule of the Okinawan population was left largely up to the Okinawans.  
  Another period when the legend about martial arts being banned came from the time when Okinawa was first unified by one king, Shoshin, around 1477.  After gaining supremacy and making his capital in Shuri, he ordered all the nobility to move to Shuri, and confiscated all their weapons.  Some say it was not even really a confiscation, but that he was just building an armory.  But these events turned into the rumor/legend that Okinawans were not allowed to practice martial arts openly, and had to use farm tools to defend themselves.  There is no indication that most weapons, and certainly not empty handed fighting methods, were ever actually "outlawed" to the point were people had to keep karate a secret.  Additionally, these events took place a couple hundred years before any of the traditions we now know as karate were even developed.  Sakugawa, Matsumura's teacher, wasn't even born until 1733(at the earliest), well into the Japanese rule over Okinawa.  He didn't start teaching the Chinese martial arts he had learned from Kusanku until 1762.  Matsumura Sokon wasn't born until 1798 (at the earliest).  He was supposedly a bodyguard for the king, of high class, I doubt his martial arts practice had to be conducted secretly, let alone the practice of subsequent generations of hs family.  It is largely from the teachers of Matsumura Sokon's generation that all the shorin ryu kata we have now were passed down, from shuri and tomari.  Again, certainly all the kata we have today, in their present forms, were created well after the time when there was any chance of karate practice being restricted.       
  I believe the reason kata have "hidden" elements is because nobody had taught the applications of the techniques for so long (probably starting around the early 20th century), and kata got changed over the years by people who didn't know all the applications.  It is also possible that some teachers didn't want their best techniques revealed too soon, or stolen by people watching them.  I'm sure it is true that there are many teachers of karate that we've never heard of, and many excellent martial artists as well.  Not everyone had a big school with lots of students.  There are family traditions we probably have never and will never hear about, and teachers who do not want to be heard of, or have lots of students.  But it's not because there was a law banning martial arts practice, or anything similar causing people to have to hide.  The stories of clandestine karate men meeting secretly at night on the beaches, to train with empty hands and farm tools in order to fight samurai are fairy tales.


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## twendkata71 (May 30, 2009)

*That does sound like a more plausable explanation. Thank you for the history.  Perhaps Funakoshi carried on the myth/legend for whatever reason. *


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## Eubrontes (Jun 13, 2009)

On a related note: of the living masters today, whose kata do you feel most closely approximates master Itosu's karate?


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## twendkata71 (Jun 14, 2009)

*I would say Iha Hanshi in Michigan, and his teacher Miyahara on Okinawa.  Maybe Nagazato on Okinawa.*


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