# Belt whipping to end a Black Belt grading!!



## gojukylie

I was reading an article recently that showed images of Black Belt grading students getting whipped. It is held at the end of the grading as an initiation into higher grades. Just interested to here comments about this and if you have experienced it what benefits came from it.


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## Ceicei

So is this a change from the "kick-in"?

- Ceicei


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

visit http://www.ralphgracie.com  scroll down and watch the video in the lower left.  The whipping is all in good fun.


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## tshadowchaser

I've been kicked , and punched but never wipped , Altough I felt many time like I had been beat with every thing at hand


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## Ceicei

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> visit http://www.ralphgracie.com scroll down and watch the video in the lower left. The whipping is all in good fun.


It sure is different than how the black belts are granted in American Kenpo. Is the ceremony only done with Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or is this ceremony found in other styles?

- Ceicei


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## gojukylie

It was a Ryu of Okinawan karate and I also saw pictures of the kick-ins but I know that that is more common. The grading students would kneel as the black belts would whip them. :boxing:


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## MJS

I've been punched and kicked, but never whipped.  

What benefits are there???? No idea.

Mike


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## theletch1

What benefits?  None that I can see.  It's another hazing ritual like all the rest.  The military has plenty of them.  Shellback for crossing the equator, pinning on your stripes when you get promoted and so on.  Give me a good kick in any day.  A whipping just seems like a means of humiliation.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

The whipping at the Gracie Academy is a relatively painless social event where everyone participates with smiles and much laughter. 
:CTF: 

The Kenpo Groin Kick is a sadistic domination thing to humiliate people.  
:btg:

My Kenpo school didn't do the groin kick...we went out for beer and pizza to celebrate!  
:cheers:


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## Rich Parsons

Many Styles have their way of doing this.

Just be prepared if anyone ever asks you to receive the cane


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## Michael Billings

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> The whipping at the Gracie Academy is a relatively painless social event where everyone participates with smiles and much laughter.
> :CTF:
> 
> The Kenpo Groin Kick is a sadistic domination thing to humiliate people.
> :btg:
> 
> My Kenpo school didn't do the groin kick...we went out for beer and pizza to celebrate!
> :cheers:









 I have never seen it as a groin kick ... and that after 25 years in Kenpo, NEVER ONCE!!  Always been a kick to the abdomen, and nobody was really trying to gut you, at least not until Black, and Mr. Parker's kick for my 2nd Black certainly was not 





> *a sadistic domination thing to humiliate people.  *


 Sounds like you found the right place for you OFK, with the grappling guys.  You certainly are not happy with your mother-art.

 -Michael


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## Makalakumu

In our art, our dan (black belt) exams are so grueling, that any further beating would make it difficult to distinguish the end of the exam.  So, to celebrate, we drink beer (or soda).


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## Kenpo Yahoo

How's this for the kenpo kick in?

About a year ago I went to watch one of my good friends recieve her blackbelt, the test lasted a couple of hours and she was totally exhausted by the end.  

I will preface the next part by filling in a little history.  I left the school about 6 months earlier after having a major falling out with the school owner/instructor.  The guy pretty much hates my guts, and knows that I am good friends with the person in question.

Now after the test he goes to "kick her in."  He turns and looks right at me (no joke.... I have it on tape) and then boots her off the back of the mat.  She spends the next 30 minutes crying because he kicked her so hard.  The next day I went with her to the hospital because of the acute pain.  Over the next several months we made several trips to the hospital due to severe abdominal pain, nausea, et cetera, which resulted in the removal of her gall-bladder.

I've been trying to get her to sue the Sh!+ out of him since it was obviously deliberate.  Shortly after her test she quit the school and has since started training with another instructor.  

As far as I'm concerned the kick-in is a dumb f*****g tradition which has nothing to do with martial arts training.  It doesn't make you better in any form or fashion.  You put your body out there hoping that your instructor has enough respect for you not to be a jackass, which Keith obviously didn't.  

Everybody will keep doing what they've been doing, but I thought this story had some relevance. I would much rather take the whoever it was out for a drink with everyone to celebrate their hardwork, not try to make them feel stupid by kicking the sh!+ out of them.  Especially if it's a female!!!!!!!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

My point exactly.


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## Rob Broad

I think at times people go too far with the ritualizing.  Nobody joins martial arts to be brutalized, and at times these riyuals can scare off students.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

And that is why a friendly belt whipping running down a gauntlet is better than a kick from an instructor.  You won't get hurt from the belt--unless you get hit in the eye.  Whether or not you get hurt from the kick is entirely dependent upon your instructor.


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## Rob Broad

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> And that is why a friendly belt whipping running down a gauntlet is better than a kick from an instructor.  You won't get hurt from the belt--unless you get hit in the eye.  Whether or not you get hurt from the kick is entirely dependent upon your instructor.



I would much rathera kick tha being whipped by a belt regardless of how light the whipping is.  Imagine telling the parents of a small child that their darling will be whipped after successfully completing their test.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Imagine telling them an adult instructor is going to kick them in the stomach.  

The belt whipping is kinda like the "spanking machine" we used to do on the elementary school playground on kids birthdays--pretty harmless.  If you want to protect the kids, make them keep their gi tops on and cover their faces.  

I can't believe we are actually debating this.


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## gojukylie

I think that the question of Kick-ins could encourage a great debate between martial artists. In all of my years of training I have never actually seen a kick-in or whipping done in real life so therefore it would be wrong for me to comment against it. I have seen a kick-in on a video (worlds strongest karate) and the poor guy said that he had had enough and they threw him back in for more.  For those of you that have seen it I am sure you know what I mean. I do think however that the question has to be raised as to what benefits derive from it and from reading some of the posts above it seems that it can be quite pointless. 
 If you have just spent two years intensely training for a specific grading to acquire a black belt from first kyu, you have put in the hard yards to the first advanced level. This to me says that you have stuck around and that you take your art seriously. Lets just say that you have successfully completed a five hour black belt grading that has just taken the best part of your physical and mental abilities. Why would it be necessary to then have an all in see if you can defend yourself kick-in to finish it off, especially when the sparring would have made up quite a chunk of your actual grading anyway. I cant help but think that it is an I am still the boss method of grading completion. I can see that it may be a test of spirit but is it necessary?


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## Rob Broad

In Kenpo we use a ceremonial kick to welcome the person to the next level.  It isn't designed to inflict damage, just a little pain for an adult.  Just like in childbriththere is pain to both the mother and the child, there is a little pain for perosn who just tested and has been born into a new level of learning.

With children the kick, or in many schools a punch is purely symbolic.  There should be no pain what so ever.  We always used a thrusting action to move them a little.  This was also a way of geting hteparents involved since they would stand behind the child to catch them from the mild thrust.  




			
				gojukylie said:
			
		

> I think that the question of Kick-ins could encourage a great debate between martial artists. In all of my years of training I have never actually seen a kick-in or whipping done in real life so therefore it would be wrong for me to comment against it. I have seen a kick-in on a video (worlds strongest karate) and the poor guy said that he had had enough and they threw him back in for more.  For those of you that have seen it I am sure you know what I mean. I do think however that the question has to be raised as to what benefits derive from it and from reading some of the posts above it seems that it can be quite pointless.
> If you have just spent two years intensely training for a specific grading to acquire a black belt from first kyu, you have put in the hard yards to the first advanced level. This to me says that you have stuck around and that you take your art seriously. Lets just say that you have successfully completed a five hour black belt grading that has just taken the best part of your physical and mental abilities. Why would it be necessary to then have an all in see if you can defend yourself kick-in to finish it off, especially when the sparring would have made up quite a chunk of your actual grading anyway. I cant help but think that it is an I am still the boss method of grading completion. I can see that it may be a test of spirit but is it necessary?


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## gojukylie

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> In Kenpo we use a ceremonial kick to welcome the person to the next level.  It isn't designed to inflict damage, just a little pain for an adult.
> There should be no pain what so ever.  We always used a thrusting action to move them a little.
> 
> I can see that the kick-in you are referring to is mild and symbolic, however the kick-ins under discussion are harsher and brutel. I was taught to respect the student that trains with me and I would not succumb to punching or kicking them just to introduce them into the next level. As a teacher I would not lose the respect of my students by inflicting pain on them. To me the martial arts is about self respect and respect for others and some rituals need to be looked at.


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## KenpoGirl

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> And that is why a friendly belt whipping running down a gauntlet is better than a kick from an instructor. You won't get hurt from the belt--unless you get hit in the eye. Whether or not you get hurt from the kick is entirely dependent upon your instructor.


No offence to anyone but the video I saw people were grimising in pain, AND I don't believe the tackle that guy was doing to some of the blackbelts was exactly "friendly".  People were swinging at the people as hard as they could.  I'd like to see their backs at the end of that video.  Then you can maybe comment on how harmless it is.  Every school has extremes.  

I have seen 3 or 4 Kick Ins and I've never seen anyone injured.  Its all in fun, and the strength depends on your belt level or age.  No one is going to kick a 10 year old full strength.  If they do they should be in jail for assault as should that guy that purposefully kick the girl should.  Keep on her to sue his *** for injuries.

Dot
:asian:


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## tkdguy1982

Can't say I have experienced that.... yet.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

KenpoGirl: no offence taken.  Really, both the kick-ins and the whippings are silly.  I still think the best method was the one my Kenpo school used:  Beer and Pizza at the sports bar accross the street.


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## mtabone

I know I will probelbly catch hell for this but....

I was watching this with a buddy of mine, and he said 
"Just like BJJ guys, can't just walk through the guantlet and take the pain."

I thought it was funny. Then I asked him how long he trained in Martial Arts, he said "Oh, I never trained, but I know a little bit."

I think it would be a little different if he was walking down that line.

MTabone


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## CanuckMA

I would walk out if any kind of whipping or kick-in was involved in gradings. 
No belt is worth any amount of humiliation.


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## hippy

all the kick-ins, and whippings u mention seem like paradise.

an old instructor, made it to 9th dan in wado-ryu (yes i know it goes up to 8th dan, as that is what the founder reached), but this guy did advertise himself as a 9th dan.
he was a psycho. if u ever passed a grading under him, you'd earnt it.

i have seen him shove stinging nettles down gi tops (never on women or children) whilst the candidate stood in yamme, at the end of the shodan grading.
before u think he was just a complete #######, he did know his stuff, and was well respected for it. he also knew about pain, which inflicted a lot.

one of his infamous training seminars, which i attended just to meet this legend, involved all the students stood in kebadashi performing blocks, whilst stones were thrown accross the room at us.

people laughed when my instructor told of a time he trained with him ,he walked to the door of the training hall, threw a stick into the centre of the room, turned out the lights, saying "u have 15 minutes, i only want to find one person standing", then locked them in the dark.

a hard kick / punch, or a light whipping can only ever be regarded as a symbollic rite of passage, its unfortunate when then instructor tries to hurt u for a laugh, but be glad u never came across this nutter.


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## bignick

my tkd school does a little iniation right after the black belt...and it varies from person to person.  The instructor decides what it is, because obviously some people handle things like this better than the other...the last one i saw was to walk down between two rows of students with your hands on your head and as you walked by each student got one open handed slap at your stomach...i'm sure it stings...but we take it for what it is...a little ritual to give you a bit of a hard time...nothing that could even come close to causing an injury


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## loki09789

ceremonial  abuse was even present in the formal knighthood rite.  A newly knighted male would recieve a gauntlet slap in the ceremony.

During my military days, newly promoted troops had their rank 'pinned on' as part of the process.

The action was rationalized because it was suppose to be a reminder that, even though they have been given new 'rank' or 'power', they have to earn the respect of those who are already there.  It was suppose to keep people from getting a 'fat head' over the promotion as well.

I had mixed feelings about it when I was in the service, I didn't/don't make it a practice within my martial arts training, and honestly I don't know if it is anything more than 'hazing' at some level - a way of 'beating down' the individual pride of the personal promotion by physically reminding the 'individual' that they are subject to the approval of the social group...

Maybe I am over intellectualizing this (NOT YOU.... that can't be), but if the point of martial arts training is to teach the responsible use of force/violence then I can't see how these types of demonstrations are consistent with that philosophical/moral goal of the training.  The LAST people a martial artist should be beating on for no reason but to pick on them - even in fun - is a fellow martial artist.


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## Sarah

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> In Kenpo we use a ceremonial kick to welcome the person to the next level. It isn't designed to inflict damage, just a little pain for an adult. Just like in childbriththere is pain to both the mother and the child, there is a little pain for perosn who just tested and has been born into a new level of learning.


I have never heard of this, is the grading not painful enough, I dont understand why you would wont to inflict any pain to congratulate a success.

At our Dojo coloured belts dont find out on the day if they past as we have a prize giving evening and dinner to celebrate people's passes later.  

The Black Belts do find out and the ritual is that the instructor walks up hands the BB and framed Certificate over, the new BB then turns to the crowd takes off his red belt, puts on his new BB and bows to the other BB and instructor, it is very touching.  Also another thing the new BB can choose to do is give away his red belt to someone that has helped/inspired him/her on the journey.


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## Shogun

Some police academies have a graduation class called the guantlet in which they mace you, then you have to beat your way out of several attackers. But thats not MA. its police.


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## ninjaboyelroy

If any of you instructors out there, who organize or participate in these sorts of "events", think your liability waivers will protect you from lawsuits, which result from these events, you are sadly mistaken.

Doug Kenny


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## loki09789

Shogun said:
			
		

> Some police academies have a graduation class called the guantlet in which they mace you, then you have to beat your way out of several attackers. But thats not MA. its police.


I have heard of this as part of graduation requirements for departments that will have LEO carrying pepper spray/mace in order to understand the effects of the chemical, but I don't know about this as part of the graduation ceremony, either formal or informal.  I can't imagine wives, moms and family appreciating it too much when they want to hug, kiss and congradulate their newly graduated LEO familiy member.


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## Disco

Some police academies have a graduation class called the guantlet in which they mace you, then you have to beat your way out of several attackers. But thats not MA. its police.

Perhaps the information you were given could be misinterperted. The liability constrants that control police departments, would not allow for such actions.
Now during training, some departments will introduce the recruit to OC and it's effects. Not all departments do this, for there was a nice lawsuit a few years ago against a department in one of the Carolina's. We went into a gas chamber, similiar to what the military uses, and got a taste. But it was not blasted in our faces and we did not, as if we could have, fought off an attack. People that have had an encounter with OC spray know what I mean. 

As for any potential harmful "welcome to the black belts ranks" goes, somebody is dancing in a minefield. Remember not so long ago the news stories of the hazing of students. 

That Instructor that injured his student (gall bladder), should not only be sued, but I think even criminal charges should be researched.


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## Bigodinho

In capoeira, our equivalent of a belt test would be our annual graduation event.  We don't really test because it's decided beforehand what level we will move up to.  It's our tradition that whenever you move up to your graduated levels, blue & red and above, you have to play or "spar" every one of the instructors and masters present that day... anywhere between 8 to 15 people.  All higher level "belts".  All incredibly talented. Needless to say we get our butts kicked, along with every other part.


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## bignick

As for this being a form of hazing, of course. But hazing has been practiced for a long time...and in all sorts of organizations. There is a fine line to walk between an initiation rite and abuse. It's a lot better than martial arts used to be and in some very traditional cases...still are, where you were required to sign a blood oath. I think in most cases it's a harmless little rite of passage, as long as it doesn't carry to far.


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## Feisty Mouse

I am not crazy about the idea of anything done to seriously hurt the person gaining rank.  I would not want to train somewhere where I ever thought I could not trust my instructor(s), or that they might haul off and clobber me (although at least one of my instructors experienced that himself).  I guess I tend (because I train with such intelligent and kind people) to think of MA in a very idealized way, that it is about mutual respect and learning about yourself.  If I thought a boot to the gut would come after that, no thanks.


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## Rob Broad

I seen the clip in question when it first appeared online and I say it again that that it is disgusting, and has no place in today schools.


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## hardheadjarhead

MJS said:
			
		

> I've been punched and kicked, but never whipped.
> 
> What benefits are there???? No idea.
> 
> Mike





I once paid someone five hundred dollars to whip...oh, wait...we're talking about something else here.  Sorry.  

Seriously, though, hazing can get out of control.  If done to lower ranks, like those taking a yellow belt test (had it done to me), it can be very negative.  

Regards,


Steve


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## Lisa

Steve,

Sometimes... well alot actually... you just leave me shaking my head... lol.


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## bignick

500 bucks to get whipped?

must have been a tkd black belt test


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## CanuckMA

bignick said:
			
		

> 500 bucks to get whipped?
> 
> must have been a tkd black belt test




Was she worth it????? :ultracool


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## hardheadjarhead

CanuckMA said:
			
		

> Was she worth it????? :ultracool




Not if you don't have a good health plan.


Back to topic...hazing can be an issue insofar as public perception.  Even light and playful hazing can be misconstrued.  Elsewhere somebody had a thread going about former students "trash talking" instructors.  Given people's tendencies to exaggerate things, a simple light hazing could be magnified into something far worse.

I knew a woman that once sent a black rose to a guy...within two weeks she got word back from a friend that he'd heard she had sent a funeral wreath.  Stories grow with the telling.

I don't see its value.  Certainly not as a "right of passage".  Our training alone is that, or ought to be.



Regards,

Steve


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## bignick

i agree...often times in my school about as far as it goes is getting a killer workout the first class you come to after the test...maybe some extra pushups or situps...


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## kenpo tiger

Please save us from the macho bulldwang that these instructors do to their students.  I trained with one like that.  During the bb test, which is conducted in an arena in front of the founder of the art, any one student can jump in and spar in any of the rings.  Pity the poor student who, by 'luck' of the draw, is in the ring directly in front of the founder.  BBs who had NO BUSINESS in that ring jumped in to spar to impress him.  I knew of at least two people who had to be taken to the hospital directly after receiving their black belts due to major injuries, similar to the story of the girl kicked in the abdomen (poor thing - I hope it works out in her favor).

There is NO PLACE in a LEGITIMATE martial art for this type of behavior.  Upper belts, ESPECIALLY black belts, are SUPPOSED to set an EXAMPLE - and if this is it, it's a real poor one.

Okay all you hardcores.  I'm ready for rebuttals.  KT


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## Feisty Mouse

*it's strangely quiet in here!*

Steve - don't worry, soon you'll have several of us (I hope) getting into more flexible weapons.  :whip1:


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## kenpo tiger

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> *it's strangely quiet in here!*
> 
> Steve - don't worry, soon you'll have several of us (I hope) getting into more flexible weapons. :whip1:


Yes, Feisty, it is.  Sorry you all, but sometimes the tiger has to roar. KT


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## hardheadjarhead

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> *it's strangely quiet in here!*
> 
> Steve - don't worry, soon you'll have several of us (I hope) getting into more flexible weapons.  :whip1:




Feisty...I...uh...I...I've been very, very bad.



Regards,


Steve


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## bignick

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Sorry you all, but sometimes the tiger has to roar. KT


and roar you did...i think you quite effectively put a lid on this discussion...as it's been very silent for awhile now.....

except for hardheadjarhead's admissions of guilt of course.  :boing2:


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## Feisty Mouse

> Sorry you all, but sometimes the tiger has to roar. KT


Oh KT, never apologize for your roars!  

And Steve - until I get that whip, all I can do is :idunno:


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## kenpo tiger

bignick said:
			
		

> and roar you did...i think you quite effectively put a lid on this discussion...as it's been very silent for awhile now.....
> 
> except for hardheadjarhead's admissions of guilt of course. :boing2:


Well, I talked with my instructor about this - that's how upset I was to see that such things still went on.  He said that the 'kenpo kick' is quite common still - but he doesn't believe in doing it because he feels that whoever has just completed her/his testing has proven himself/herself.   The kick is merely humiliation for the satisfaction of a lot of insecure people.  KT


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## Feisty Mouse

KT - I think this idea of insecure people beating on/humiliating others has come up a lot in various threads.  It's sad to see that it is so very prevalent.


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## bignick

could some of the kenpo people fill me in on how this whole tradition started, the kick-in that is?  (i know hazing is not limited, nor did it start with kenpo...but i'd never heard of actually kicking someone like that)


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## sifu nick

We have no rituals like that at our school. First I've heard of this actually. You just need to be careful since there is a very fine line between good fun and hazing.


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## jakmak52

Fraternity rush parties


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## GAB

Hi All,

I was in the Marine Corps, seagoing. We crossed the equator at the IDL.
Golden Shell Back. 
Talk about brutal, being a Marine aboard a flag ship is quite a responsibility, no friends in the rest of the ship as a general rule. 

The old idea, us against the rest, comes to mind. Protect the officers from the enlisted etc. We also had brig duty and gangplank guard. Some people are no fun at all...

The equator and IDL crossing is one of the most brutal (fun things) I have participated in (receiving end) the old goldens and shellbacks get their day.

The Marines on the ship were treated with some real sadistic pleasure from the old timers and young timers who had been the victims of the Brig chasers and Brig watch Marines.

Payback is what they would have called it. 

Like I say, brutal comes to mind.
Aye, laddies, come and get it. 
All in rough and tumble fun...
Sick! 
Probably, you had to be there to understand the feeling of pride as you recover.

Semper Fi.

Regards, Gary 
PS 
I believe the type of beatings you are talking about started in the Navy, probably in the English Navy and carried on from there....Fun or foul, was a cat of nine tails...G


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## GAB

Hi all,

I was a LEO, I could tell you about that also, It is not the day of graduation, it is the day before, same as in Boot Camp...

Sorry KT, you have/had to been there or done that, before you can complain.
Pain is a form of manhood...LOL...Right!!!

That is what I hear about motherhood...LOL...Just funnin...

The passage to anything can be painful or not...

Regards, Gary


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## Patrick Skerry

I think there is a difference to being flogged earning your black belt; and being progressively conditioned over years of proper training to be able to survive a requisite beating to earn your black belt.

Getting whipped sounds a bit cultish to me.


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## GAB

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> I think there is a difference to being flogged earning your black belt; and being progressively conditioned over years of proper training to be able to survive a requisite beating to earn your black belt.
> 
> Getting whipped sounds a bit cultish to me.


Yep the cult of no pain, no gain, its a rule...

Regards, Gary


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## Patrick Skerry

GAB said:
			
		

> Yep the cult of no pain, no gain, its a rule...
> 
> Regards, Gary


 
Actually all the pain you need should have been accumulated in good pragmatic training on your way to your first dan, and not because of your earing your first dan.  Getting whipped on a graduation ceremony is just blatantly wrong.


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## thepanjr

I was getting whiped i would run away , but that just totally wrong. I do not want to get hit or it will totally destroy my goal to become a black belt one day


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## Black/Red Block

What a bunch of Sadistic "people"!!! (people to be substituted with the proper appointed Verb)

Martial arts is about these vitues:
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Seven virtues of Bushido*[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*The Bushido code is typified by seven virtues:*[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Rectitude *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Courage *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Benevolence *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Respect *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Honesty *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Honour *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Loyalty *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Associated virtues*[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Filial piety *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Wisdom *[/FONT]
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]*Care for the aged 

*Where is that here?
Its just evil, nothing more than that. I would never subject ANY of my students to that and I would definately report any instructor to the authorities that did this especially to Women or Minors.

Its abuse and I've NEVER heard of it occuring in the UK so where does it happen, US, Japan, Europe, Where?

Seriously can't understand how anyone could let this happen!!!

I want to vomit because I can't believe that 1 human being wants to do this to another human being, I suppose the people who think this is acceptable think its acceptable for a person to go around New york shooting anyone that comes their way or thinks the Movies "Hostel" and "Hostel 2" are comedies

sick, seriously sick

Apologies to eevery NORMAL person out there who has to read my rant

OSU[/FONT]


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## Steve

I went up and down the gauntlet when I got my purple belt.  Doesn't hurt very much and it's a rite of passage.  It's no biggie if someone doesn't want to do it.

Silly, macho and testosterone driven?  Sure.  But I wouldn't go so far as to say that the jiu jitsu belt gauntlet is evil or sadistic.

On that note, I also wouldn't agree that martial arts training is any more or less about the seven virtues of bushido, or it's "associated virtues."  But that's just my opinion.


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## jks9199

Black/Red Block said:


> What a bunch of Sadistic "people"!!! (people to be substituted with the proper appointed Verb)
> 
> Martial arts is about these vitues:
> *Seven virtues of Bushido*
> *The Bushido code is typified by seven virtues:*
> *Rectitude *
> *Courage *
> *Benevolence *
> *Respect *
> *Honesty *
> *Honour *
> *Loyalty *
> 
> *Associated virtues*
> *Filial piety *
> *Wisdom *
> *Care for the aged
> 
> *Where is that here?
> Its just evil, nothing more than that. I would never subject ANY of my students to that and I would definately report any instructor to the authorities that did this especially to Women or Minors.
> 
> Its abuse and I've NEVER heard of it occuring in the UK so where does it happen, US, Japan, Europe, Where?
> 
> Seriously can't understand how anyone could let this happen!!!
> 
> I want to vomit because I can't believe that 1 human being wants to do this to another human being, I suppose the people who think this is acceptable think its acceptable for a person to go around New york shooting anyone that comes their way or thinks the Movies "Hostel" and "Hostel 2" are comedies
> 
> sick, seriously sick
> 
> Apologies to eevery NORMAL person out there who has to read my rant
> 
> OSU


And if I don't train in a Japanese art?  Say I train in an Indian art, or an Indonesian style... or just boxing/kickboxing?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

I did the whipping-with-belts gauntlet when I got my blue belt in BJJ.  It wasn't particularly painful compared to the training I went through to get to that point in the first place.  It wasn't at all humiliating either, at least from my standpoint.  I didn't have any negative feelings about the experience.

On the other hand, I don't know that it had any particular value either.  Just a bit of macho-tinged ritual.  I suppose it makes some people happy.


----------



## Black/Red Block

jks9199 said:


> And if I don't train in a Japanese art? Say I train in an Indian art, or an Indonesian style... or just boxing/kickboxing?




That's just being pedantic!

doesn't matter where the style originates from its sick. Most people begin martial arts to give them the confidence to protect themselves against bullies. THIS is just the icing on the cake of Bullying. If they say NO, I'm not taking the Whipping?Kicking? whatever the Hazing Ritual is, does that mean they'll fail their grade, therefore this is an infringement of that individuals Civil rights, and I'm sure our American Posters know all about the Constitution!!!


----------



## jks9199

Black/Red Block said:


> That's just being pedantic!
> 
> doesn't matter where the style originates from its sick. Most people begin martial arts to give them the confidence to protect themselves against bullies. THIS is just the icing on the cake of Bullying. If they say NO, I'm not taking the Whipping?Kicking? whatever the Hazing Ritual is, does that mean they'll fail their grade, therefore this is an infringement of that individuals Civil rights, and I'm sure our American Posters know all about the Constitution!!!



Which civil right is it infringing on?  There's no Constitutional implication in an action like this.

If all the participants are willing, and it's a non-injurious "welcome" to the new rank, what's the problem?  Some of the stories in this thead are certainly excessive or bullying (like the instructor who kicked a woman literally off the mat to get back at her friend...), but that doesn't mean a procedure like this is automatically bad or intrinsically evil.

People train in the martial arts for lots of reasons.  Some join a school to do something with their kids.  Others are looking for self-defense skills.  Some want to compete in sports or go to the Olympics.  Or they're looking to learn another culture... Or just "I heard these guys were doing something cool, so I decided to try it."  I think you're pushing to say that "most" or even many join seeking confidence against bullies.  

I don't do a ritual like kicking in or a belt whipping with my students -- but some schools I know do.  Everyone knows about it going in, they have fun with it, and nobody gets hurt.


----------



## Black/Red Block

jks9199 said:


> Which civil right is it infringing on? There's no Constitutional implication in an action like this.
> 
> If all the participants are willing, and it's a non-injurious "welcome" to the new rank, what's the problem? Some of the stories in this thead are certainly excessive or bullying (like the instructor who kicked a woman literally off the mat to get back at her friend...), but that doesn't mean a procedure like this is automatically bad or intrinsically evil.
> 
> People train in the martial arts for lots of reasons. Some join a school to do something with their kids. Others are looking for self-defense skills. Some want to compete in sports or go to the Olympics. Or they're looking to learn another culture... Or just "I heard these guys were doing something cool, so I decided to try it." I think you're pushing to say that "most" or even many join seeking confidence against bullies.
> 
> I don't do a ritual like kicking in or a belt whipping with my students -- but some schools I know do. Everyone knows about it going in, they have fun with it, and nobody gets hurt.



Maybe its just an American thing as I've not heard of it happening in the UK, Same as "Linching" and the KKK all in good fun!!!

NOBODY has answered "what if the Candidate doesn't want the "ritual" belt whipping etc?" DOES it mean that they've failed their grade, if it is they do NOT have a choice and therefore it is an infringement of their Civil rights.

this "beating" is a new thing NOT an old thing, and not representative of true martial artists. I would say its the same schools that award themselves Soke and 10th Dans that enjoy it.


----------



## ballen0351

Black/Red Block said:


> Maybe its just an American thing as I've not heard of it happening in the UK, Same as "Linching" and the KKK all in good fun!!!
> 
> NOBODY has answered "what if the Candidate doesn't want the "ritual" belt whipping etc?" DOES it mean that they've failed their grade, if it is they do NOT have a choice and therefore it is an infringement of their Civil rights.
> 
> this "beating" is a new thing NOT an old thing, and not representative of true martial artists. I would say its the same schools that award themselves Soke and 10th Dans that enjoy it.



Well its not a new thing this is something that's been done for as long as men have trained for combat.  We did similar things for promotion in the military.  Getting your blood stripe in the Marines for example.  Getting your jump wings pinned on ect.  I think comparing it to the KKK is just silly.  You don't like it don't do it.  Don't join a school that does it.


----------



## Black/Red Block

ballen0351 said:


> Well its not a new thing this is something that's been done for as long as men have trained for combat. We did similar things for promotion in the military. Getting your blood stripe in the Marines for example. Getting your jump wings pinned on ect. I think comparing it to the KKK is just silly. You don't like it don't do it. Don't join a school that does it.



Well I've done my own military service, even known of friends of friends shot at by "friendly fire" from you guys in the gulf 1.

I never had the Rituals and my style isn't a soft one, to me your battle scares are earned in combat NOT from some "college Hazing" ritual.

And you're supposed to be civilised. What man would allow another man to be a slave because of the colour (or Color) of his skin!

think its wrong and all that is put up to "defend" it is its a bit of fun, How many people have been killed in the last 40 years because of Hazing and other Rituals going wrong?

suppose you all belong to a school that does this as i suppose they think hazing rituals are a bit of fun


----------



## ballen0351

Black/Red Block said:


> Well I've done my own military service, even known of friends of friends shot at by "friendly fire" from you guys in the gulf 1.
> 
> I never had the Rituals and my style isn't a soft one, to me your battle scares are earned in combat NOT from some "college Hazing" ritual.
> 
> And you're supposed to be civilised. What man would allow another man to be a slave because of the colour (or Color) of his skin!
> 
> think its wrong and all that is put up to "defend" it is its a bit of fun, How many people have been killed in the last 40 years because of Hazing and other Rituals going wrong?
> 
> suppose you all belong to a school that does this as i suppose they think hazing rituals are a bit of fun



I'm not sure what friendly fire or slavery has to do with it but OK.  Maybe you should just leave 8 year old threads stay dead if they make you this crazy.


----------



## Black/Red Block

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not sure what friendly fire or slavery has to do with it but OK. Maybe you should just leave 8 year old threads stay dead if they make you this crazy.



Agreed, Its best to leave this thread alone as it drives me crazy seeing the Bigger man picking on the smaller man. 

I will no longer reply to this thread

Thanks


----------



## Rich Parsons

Black/Red Block said:


> That's just being pedantic!
> 
> doesn't matter where the style originates from its sick. Most people begin martial arts to give them the confidence to protect themselves against bullies. THIS is just the icing on the cake of Bullying. If they say NO, I'm not taking the Whipping?Kicking? whatever the Hazing Ritual is, does that mean they'll fail their grade, therefore this is an infringement of that individuals Civil rights, and I'm sure our American Posters know all about the Constitution!!!





Black/Red Block said:


> Maybe its just an American thing as I've not heard of it happening in the UK, Same as "Linching" and the KKK all in good fun!!!
> 
> NOBODY has answered "what if the Candidate doesn't want the "ritual" belt whipping etc?" DOES it mean that they've failed their grade, if it is they do NOT have a choice and therefore it is an infringement of their Civil rights.
> 
> this "beating" is a new thing NOT an old thing, and not representative of true martial artists. I would say its the same schools that award themselves Soke and 10th Dans that enjoy it.




US Constitution does not include the Declaration of Independence, which mentions Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness. There was a Supreme Court Ruling on this in question to the Death Penalty. 
Should I bring up poor dental hygiene in reference to those of UK? I mean it has not relevant point in this discussion and is only inflammatory. 

So the question I have for you is if a student refuses to test or spar or perform a kata as they get nervous in front of people, should they still pass and be awarded the rank?

Be careful how you answer that as if you say yes then I could walk in and say it is hard for me to test, so just give me the rank. Oh by the way I find it hard to make money and pay you as well so you will do this for free. I think I want to be *insert rank here*. 

Thank you. 




*****

People have a right to train where they want. To spar in systems that spar and if they do not want to spar to leave and go train elsewhere. 

You are entitled to your opinion, as others are entitled to disagree with you. 

As to bullying, I can see your point, yet I also think it could be a confidence builder to address being overwhelmed, and dealing with multiple people.


----------



## Tez3

Black/Red Block said:


> Maybe its just an American thing as I've not heard of it happening in the UK, Same as "Linching" and the KKK all in good fun!!!
> 
> NOBODY has answered "what if the Candidate doesn't want the "ritual" belt whipping etc?" DOES it mean that they've failed their grade, if it is they do NOT have a choice and therefore it is an infringement of their Civil rights.
> 
> this "beating" is a new thing NOT an old thing, and not representative of true martial artists. I would say its the same schools that award themselves Soke and 10th Dans that enjoy it.




In the UK...


----------



## Tgace

Have a cuppa concrete and harden the **** up.


----------



## Tez3

Tgace said:


> Have a cuppa concrete and harden the **** up.



:lol2:  As our conditioning coach says 'Gan awa an get a cup o man up!'


----------



## Black/Red Block

Tez3 said:


> :lol2: As our conditioning coach says 'Gan awa an get a cup o man up!'



I know ALL about body conditioning, it what I teach best. there's a difference between conditioning and humiliation!

All this taunting reminds me of the school grounds, not what I'd expect from Mature Martial Artists.

For me Battle scares are received through combat not a silly ritual.
I know we Knockdown Karateka are hard in our training with body conditioning, knockdown Kumite, 30-, 50-, 100-, 200-, & 300- man Kumite etc which I accept because the participants have a choice. 

To me this is nothing more than glorified Hazing and is on par with Street Gang Initiations

http://www.gangsorus.com/initiations.html

You wont change my mind and it seems you guys think its fun, hey if you're kinky enough to enjoy a "whipping", hey who am I to interupt your "play"

I will no longer respond to this thread, Good Day


----------



## ballen0351

Black/Red Block said:


> I will no longer respond to this thread, Good Day



You said that already


----------



## The Last Legionary

ballen0351 said:


> You said that already


It's just a case of someone whining when they don't hear what they want to hear or when their bully tactics get turned back on them. Prove them wrong and you're "attacking them". He's probably gone whining to the mods about anyone who's disagreed with them. Common troll tactic.  If he's not a troll, he's got thin skin and should 'toughen up'.  Unless soft, delicate skin is a job requirement, in which case "it puts the lotion on it's skin, or it gets the hose again.:rofl:

As to "beatings", could be worse.:btg:


----------



## Tez3

Black/Red Block said:


> I know ALL about body conditioning, it what I teach best. there's a difference between conditioning and humiliation!
> 
> All this taunting reminds me of the school grounds, not what I'd expect from Mature Martial Artists.
> 
> For me Battle scares are received through combat not a silly ritual.
> I know we Knockdown Karateka are hard in our training with body conditioning, knockdown Kumite, 30-, 50-, 100-, 200-, & 300- man Kumite etc which I accept because the participants have a choice.
> 
> To me this is nothing more than glorified Hazing and is on par with Street Gang Initiations
> 
> http://www.gangsorus.com/initiations.html
> 
> You wont change my mind and it seems you guys think its fun, hey if you're kinky enough to enjoy a "whipping", hey who am I to interupt your "play"
> 
> I will no longer respond to this thread, Good Day



I haven't said anything about the belt whipping itself, I don't have an opinion on it because we don't do as adults don't grade for belts. You did state it doesn't happen here, well it does and I've posted the proof, I know a couple of the BJJ clubs. For the comment you quoted I've just paraphrased what was already said, it has nothing to do with conditioning nor how you train. It doesn't make you harder because you do full contact kumite, my instructor used to, in fact a lot of people used to and still do.
 All this talk of 100 man kumite is irrelevant, it just sounds like bragging that your style is better than anyone elses. As you  boast on MT of your kyu grades beating a female karateka up I doubt you have the high moral ground here.
You aren't being taunted, you just don't like the replies you are getting from people who are robust in their opinions which probably indicated robustness in their training. No one is trying to change your mind, why would we? If we all thought the same it would be boring.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Black/Red Block said:


> I know ALL about body conditioning, it what I teach best. there's a difference between conditioning and humiliation!



If I thought a given student would feel humiliated by the belt whipping ritual, then I would absolutely not support putting the student through it.

On the other hand, I don't know that I've encountered any BJJ students at the blue belt level or higher who would feel humiliated or hazed by the ritual. (Blue belt is the earliest anyone would go through it.)

As I mentioned, the discomfort is trivial compared to the discomforts involved in earning the belt in the first place. There's no ill-will coming from the other participants, so I'm not sure where the feeling of humiliation would be coming from.

I'm not advocating for the ritual. As I said, I consider it kind of pointless and we don't practice it at my current gym. Nevertheless, I think you're projecting an emotional reaction onto the ritual that the actual people who go through it do not experience.


----------



## Steve

Black/Red Block said:


> Maybe its just an American thing as I've not heard of it happening in the UK, Same as "Linching" and the KKK all in good fun!!!
> 
> NOBODY has answered "what if the Candidate doesn't want the "ritual" belt whipping etc?" DOES it mean that they've failed their grade, if it is they do NOT have a choice and therefore it is an infringement of their Civil rights.
> 
> this "beating" is a new thing NOT an old thing, and not representative of true martial artists. I would say its the same schools that award themselves Soke and 10th Dans that enjoy it.


I can only speak from my school, but it wouldn't be any kind of big deal if someone didn't want to run the gauntlet.  In fact, it's usually the other way around, where it's done only if the person who got their belt gives some indication that they would like to do it.  No rights being impinged or anything like that.


----------



## Tgace




----------



## Zoran

Wow! Controversy over being whipped by a piece of cloth that is really soft to begin with?!? I was at a Kajukenbo school that included being whipped by the new belt you achieved. Seriously, it was nothing. I have also trained in a Parker Kenpo school that included the kick to the gut, a lot worse than being whipped. 

Don't like it, don't train there. Get over it people!


----------



## arnisador

I don't like this sort of tradition, but it hardly seems like a big deal to me.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Zoran said:


> Wow! Controversy over being whipped by a piece of cloth that is really soft to begin with?!? I was at a Kajukenbo school that included being whipped by the new belt you achieved. Seriously, it was nothing. I have also trained in a Parker Kenpo school that included the kick to the gut, a lot worse than being whipped.
> 
> Don't like it, don't train there. Get over it people!



A strip of leather is also really soft and flexible, but being whipped with a cat-o-nine is not my idea of a good time. 

However, I think this is a lot of fuss over nothing. Is there *any* reason to think that this "whipping" was in any way dangerous, painful, or even mildly embarassing? Or was it just a symbolic or ritual smack that nobody involved is bothered by?


----------



## Rich Parsons

arnisador said:


> I don't like this sort of tradition, but it hardly seems like a big deal to me.



Jeff,

I agree. I mean those that do not mind or ignore it will just get through it or actually enjoy it. 

Those that do not will find some other place to train.


----------



## Tgace

Too bad people cant see this as a metaphor for the Study. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tgace said:


> Too bad people cant see this as a metaphor for the Study.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



The whole idea of the Cesspool is to keep crap confined. Please don't bring it outside the Cesspool.

ON TOPIC: I still haven't seen any reason to think this ceremony is any different from being "struck" with a sword during a knighting ceremony.


----------



## Black Belt Jedi

I never been through belt whipping before. I think there would be no benefits but taking abuse.


----------



## Gentle Fist

Pretty common practice in BJJ...


----------



## Zoran

Dirty Dog said:


> ...but being whipped with a cat-o-nine is not my idea of a good time.



Oh I am sure some would consider it a good time. As a matter of fact, when I worked at a "Gentleman's Club", I new at least half a dozen people that would have considered that a good time. 

After 5 years in that place, there are things I wish I could forget.


----------



## SenseiRuss

Kenpo Yahoo said:


> How's this for the kenpo kick in?
> 
> About a year ago I went to watch one of my good friends recieve her blackbelt, the test lasted a couple of hours and she was totally exhausted by the end.
> 
> I will preface the next part by filling in a little history.  I left the school about 6 months earlier after having a major falling out with the school owner/instructor.  The guy pretty much hates my guts, and knows that I am good friends with the person in question.
> 
> Now after the test he goes to "kick her in."  He turns and looks right at me (no joke.... I have it on tape) and then boots her off the back of the mat.  She spends the next 30 minutes crying because he kicked her so hard.  The next day I went with her to the hospital because of the acute pain.  Over the next several months we made several trips to the hospital due to severe abdominal pain, nausea, et cetera, which resulted in the removal of her gall-bladder.
> 
> I've been trying to get her to sue the Sh!+ out of him since it was obviously deliberate.  Shortly after her test she quit the school and has since started training with another instructor.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned the kick-in is a dumb f*****g tradition which has nothing to do with martial arts training.  It doesn't make you better in any form or fashion.  You put your body out there hoping that your instructor has enough respect for you not to be a jackass, which Keith obviously didn't.
> 
> Everybody will keep doing what they've been doing, but I thought this story had some relevance. I would much rather take the whoever it was out for a drink with everyone to celebrate their hardwork, not try to make them feel stupid by kicking the sh!+ out of them.  Especially if it's a female!!!!!!!



I've been at promotions (in my association) where they do this idiocy, but with the person who's being promoted having their eyes closed, so they don't know when the strike is coming, or to which area of their body. I spoke to the senior Shihan about how stupid and pointless and dangerous this was, and at the next promotion, this practice was gone. They still had to have their eyes closed, but were hit with hand held/small kicking pads. Much more sensible and still a challenge.

-Russell


----------



## Tez3

We don't do anything like this but I imagine our students (who are proper soldiers as opposed to Walts) would really be bothered one way or another. They don't go around boasting they are in the military even though they really are, they are pretty hard guys who go to Afghan rather than teach children in the cadets (cadets aren't in the army,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_Force). They do play hard so I doubt a belt whipping would bother them but it's never come up.


----------



## pgsmith

The belt whipping in BJJ is a pretty standard macho thing having to do more with the art's South American roots than anything else. We used to play a lot of games that involved getting hit when we were kids in the Mexican neighborhood I grew up in. 
  In my opinion, the kenpo 'kick-in' is much more closely related to gang initiation hazing rituals. If everyone has paid a price in pain and/or humiliation to join the inner club, then that means the inner club is worth a lot right? You're now part of the elite group that paid the price to enter. Just a simple macho sort of loyalty booster. Definitely not my cup of tea, but I've been involved in numerous instances of "are you in or out", so everyone has their own choice in the matter. Don't like it? Don't join.


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## Black/Red Block

Tez3 said:


> We don't do anything like this but I imagine our students (who are proper soldiers as opposed to Walts) would really be bothered one way or another. They don't go around boasting they are in the military even though they really are, they are pretty hard guys who go to Afghan rather than teach children in the cadets (cadets aren't in the army, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_Force). They do play hard so I doubt a belt whipping would bother them but it's never come up.



Do you know I'm proud of my time the the Army Cadet Force, I gave my time for FREE, to give kids from Council estates who had nothing else going on in their lives, some from broken homes who would be stood around street corners getting into trouble with the Police, etc (the usual stuff that teenagers get involved in) and gave them something to aim for, I was there to guide, to listen, to coach, to be a Father figure/a mother figure, and anything else I could be to give those kids a GOOD start in life showing that people DO care about them, the amount of times I gave my own money to pay for the weekend camps, Summer Camps etc for the kids where their families couldn't afford it. now if you think that that's not worth anything it shows you are a heartless individual! full of self importance

Is it now your life times goal to continually find something to have a go and a dig about. typical response from a Ministry of Defence Police person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Defence_Police) careful what you say to her, she may use it in evidence


----------



## Mauthos

For my 2 pence (cents) worth, I think for me in the UK studying Kenpo and receiving the symbolic kick to the gut was exactly that, symbolic.

It has been done to myself (receiving 9 kicks from each attending black belt when I passed my 2nd degree) but the kick in itself was more of a gesture.  In my opinion, and maybe this is just the organisation I am with, but it was all just a bit of a laugh.

The main premise was to have fun, someone would stand behind you, supporting your shoulders so you had to absorb the kick, then the instructor(s) would wind up a big powerful kick, launching forward at full speed and power to then, as you tense, simply touch the tips of their toes to your gut.  No real impact, no pain, all in a bit of fun to get a laugh.

Also within my organisation it has always been ensured that you have this 'ritual' kick on your own volition, if you don't want to do it, you don't.  Plus this is reserved for the adult students only, children do not receive the kick at all.


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## Black/Red Block

Now We in the knock down comunity don't do the "belt whipping" to us the belt around our waist is considered "sacred"it symbolises ALL our blood sweat and tears from all our years of training BUT we do love Body Conditioning


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## Tez3

I've been thinking how to reply in a way that isn't inflamatory, this is an eight year old thread that was revived so someone could have a rant, fine, then it turned into a bit of an anti-American thing with friendly fire, the KKK et al being brought up, then it was you never get this sort of thing in the UK. The truth is it happens, here presumably with the co-operation of all concerned who in the videos looked happy enough, each to their own. 
Army cadet force civvie instructor, cool, good work but it's not being a soldier. Two years in the RAF Regt? My husband served from 18 when he joined up until he was 55 in the RAF Regt. I've been with him since 1976 so I know a lot about the Regt. He's been in Northern Ireland, Cyprus the Falklands and the First Gulf war ( also the very first 'Gulf' war in Oman in the 1970's) http://www.britains-smallwars.com/gulf/gulfunits.htm.

Insults to the job, yeah whatever.


----------



## seasoned

My 2 cents also. 

Late 60s black belt test:

20 push ups between sparring matches. (nothing more then to get your arms tired)

Starting with the lowest ranked student at the test, you sparred everyone.

By the time you got to the higher belt ranks you couldn't hold your arms up.

By the time you got to Sensei you had been through a battle.

This is the good part:

The last match was with Sensei as he welcomed you into the black belt ranks. 
 The match lasted until Sensei was convinced you dug down as deeply as you could without being broken in the spirit.
The belt whipping came on the sparring floor as you survived a well calculated a$$ whipping.

Our black belts were a revered club within a dojo, that you needed to train hard for until it was your turn. Some made it to brown belt but were never given the chance to test for black for one reason or another. 

Those that know know those that don't, don't.    :asian:


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## MJS

*Admin Note

Please keep the discussion at a friendly level.  Use the ignore feature if you do not wish to see another members posts.

MJS
MT Asst Admin*


----------



## Tez3

I can imagine a belt whipping could be open to abuse but a place where the members would do that is probably somewhere that wouldn't have good training or be a place decent people would want to go. The sort of mindset people have that would use this to abuse people would mean that training would probably be rougher than necessary and where the higher grades would beat up on beginners and lower belts anyway. They'd run out of beginners soon enough or just attract people the same as themselves so they could beat each other up to their hearts delight!


----------



## Makalakumu

Tez3 said:


> I can imagine a belt whipping could be open to abuse but a place where the members would do that is probably somewhere that wouldn't have good training or be a place decent people would want to go. The sort of mindset people have that would use this to abuse people would mean that training would probably be rougher than necessary and where the higher grades would beat up on beginners and lower belts anyway. They'd run out of beginners soon enough or just attract people the same as themselves so they could beat each other up to their hearts delight!



I tend to agree. If I saw that at a school, i'd walk out and I wouldn't recommending it any time soon.


----------



## Zero

Makalakumu said:


> I tend to agree. If I saw that at a school, i'd walk out and I wouldn't recommending it any time soon.



Wow, talk about opening up an old post, am a bit annoyed about another different but in some ways similair occurrence (will post on that following this), and all I would say is that, if someone, Sensei or whatever, tried a stunt like that on me, hazzing, belt whipping, pointless full contact kick to gut/groin which you are not permitted to defend against or evade, whatever, I would either walk out or depending how I felt take it and then beat the currap out of them and then walk out. No offense to styles were this is "part" of the curriculum and each to their own but I have never come across or seen this in the judo, TKD or goju ryu karate I have trained in (or other styles where I have witnessed black belt or equivalent gradings).

If it is a test of conditioning to genuinely improve you or test your ability, ie breaking (which I also see no point in for real fighting or competition fights) then fine but otherwise, pointless.  Again, if it's just a bit of light hearted letting off of steam, at end of a hard test, ie what seems to be explained in some bjj, then I guess ok but a bit weird, but to expect someone to stand there and take a beating or humiliation seems just low.


----------



## Tgace

Zero said:


> Wow, talk about opening up an old post, am a bit annoyed about another different but in some ways similair occurrence (will post on that following this), and all I would say is that, if someone, Sensei or whatever, tried a stunt like that on me, hazzing, belt whipping, pointless full contact kick to gut/groin which you are not permitted to defend against or evade, whatever, I would either walk out or depending how I felt take it and then beat the currap out of them and then walk out. No offense to styles were this is "part" of the curriculum and each to their own but I have never come across or seen this in the judo, TKD or goju ryu karate I have trained in (or other styles where I have witnessed black belt or equivalent gradings).
> 
> If it is a test of conditioning to genuinely improve you or test your ability, ie breaking (which I also see no point in for real fighting or competition fights) then fine but otherwise, pointless.  Again, if it's just a bit of light hearted letting off of steam, at end of a hard test, ie what seems to be explained in some bjj, then I guess ok but a bit weird, but to expect someone to stand there and take a beating or humiliation seems just low.



By the time you reach BB wouldn't you have seen...participated in....and accepted this ritual as part of the dojo culture? Who exactly cares if some schools do this? I doubt anyone who attends this school does.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Zero

Tgace said:


> By the time you reach BB wouldn't you have seen...participated in....and accepted this ritual as part of the dojo culture? Who exactly cares if some schools do this? I doubt anyone who attends this school does.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



Actually Tgace, you point makes perfect sense!! Thanks : )


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## Dirty Dog

I wonder how Mrs Dog would feel about being spanked with her belt after promotional exams...


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