# The case for Judo as a self-defense system...



## TMA17 (May 26, 2019)

I normally don't like posting these types of things, but sometimes it's fun LOL.  I thought this guy made a good case for Judo over BJJ.  Both are great and both emphasize different things.  

"As far as BJJ vs. Judo i'll have to side with judo from my experiences, but i am not saying bjj is useless by any means. 
My background is wrestling, judo and only currently about 3 years of bjj. In all the fights i've been in, wrestling and judo have been a better foundation for several reasons outside of dirty street tactics:

1. Balance. Not being able to be thrown off balance or taken down has helped me monumentally as a 60-65kg individual. You can't punch or do anything when you are off balance.

2. Understanding how to control limbs via grips like in judo or meat hooking like in wrestling. Since most people only throw wild rights, it's very easy to collar elbow tie a guy and not be in danger and adjust accordingly after, spin behind, snap downs and so forth.

3. Being able to take the larger person down if you have to, is better suited for judo/wrestling by being able to consistently end up on top, thus controlling and effectively managing damage. Most bjj players can't take people down for beans and this can prove very problematic as the nature of bjj is not focused on take downs enough. I've seen many bjj players end up on their back from drunkards and idiots, though they do get swept most often provided nobody is interfering (ideal scenario).

4. A high velocity take down has, for a number of times, ended fights for me since they generally incapacitate people or cause them to go into panic/turtling. You almost always also, end up in a very dominant position thereafter.

5. The scrappy nature and fast pace of judo and wrestling make for more realistic combat scenarios as said earlier. Your reaction timing is paramount, and bjj is typically too slow to match this.

6. In the event you are thrown/taken off balance, you are more used to this occurrence from hours of take downs and having the wind knocked out of you and can deal with this pressure better and reversing to come out on top (sit outs, switches, hip heists etc). The nature of these two sports is heavily focused on "play for broke" since if you end up in a bad situation, you don't have time to escape, you need to act now.

7. Judo makes throwing larger opponents easier when you understand what throws to use when. I won't uchi mata someone who is 6 foot 200 pounds, that is not likely to work. I may use tani otoshi if i'm caught in a headlock, a single leg, ko-uchi/o-uchi, de-ashi harai. Someone closer to my size, i may back arching throw, uchi mata, then. 

With all this being said, these still don't account for the intangibles you may encounter. A kick to the kneecap can stop anyone, being hit in the throat hard, eye gouged, nut shotted repeatedly while being punched in the jaw, punched in the back of the neck where it meets the skull etc, will force different reactions from anyone. Most of these can't be trained for, they need to be reacted with. Best bet is to avoid fighting at all costs if you can.

Cliffs: I feel judo is better based off my experiences, BJJ will work no doubt, as can many other arts."


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## jobo (May 26, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> I normally don't like posting these types of things, but sometimes it's fun LOL.  I thought this guy made a good case for Judo over BJJ.  Both are great and both emphasize different things.
> 
> "As far as BJJ vs. Judo i'll have to side with judo from my experiences, but i am not saying bjj is useless by any means.
> My background is wrestling, judo and only currently about 3 years of bjj. In all the fights i've been in, wrestling and judo have been a better foundation for several reasons outside of dirty street tactics:
> ...


I would tend to agree, judo is a very effective self defence system, of course how effective it for an individual  is dependent on that individual.  but generally if assessing an art for self defence,  you need to look at the l2vel of fitness that's required and fully resistant opponents,  and judo score very high on both


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## JR 137 (May 26, 2019)

Most things can be very good for self defense. It all depends on how you train it, how well you understand it, and how well you can adapt it on the fly for the situation you’re under.

IMO the biggest thing is mental toughness. Being able to take a hit and keep going. Not getting scared to the point of forgetting everything you’ve been taught. When the adrenaline really starts flowing, many people forget everything and resort of primitive instincts like throwing haymakers and turning away from stuff coming at them. It’s a lot like when people first start sparring in striking how they back straight up into the wall and are turning away, almost into a standing fetal position.


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## Buka (May 26, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> I normally don't like posting these types of things, but sometimes it's fun LOL.  I thought this guy made a good case for Judo over BJJ.  Both are great and both emphasize different things.
> 
> "As far as BJJ vs. Judo i'll have to side with judo from my experiences, but i am not saying bjj is useless by any means.
> My background is wrestling, judo and only currently about 3 years of bjj. In all the fights i've been in, wrestling and judo have been a better foundation for several reasons outside of dirty street tactics:
> ...



Who is "this guy"?


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## TMA17 (May 26, 2019)

Great points.

He wasn’t anybody of significance.  Some random comment on Reddit.


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## JP3 (May 26, 2019)

Since I started doing judo in '95, after about a year of it (after about 15 years of TKD/HKD then 5 years of Muay Thai at that point) I generated much the same opinion of judo as an excellent SD system as the copied info/statements in the O/P.

I think that, much as was mentioned above, judo's main advantage as a SD "system" is how it is regularly taught & trained.  Almost every single class you, as a student or instructor (little difference in a good judo class as to who's doing what) end up doing at least a few minutes of freework naewaza (groundwork, rolling, call it whatever you want). Lots of the time it's full power, so that people can start learning right away that it really is Not about how strong you are, though strength is a nice tool to have in the kit.  AND you also do at least a few minutes of randori, in which you can amp it down or up as the two individuals want... younger guys almost always are going at it hard and fast, the older folks are going slower and smooth.  But, every single day there's an aspect of free practice to bring the random nature of the universe into play... and it regularly gets going what I call full-tilt bozo, so you rapidly get used to that, too.

In a punch-kick school, at least in my few years at it... very, very rarely did you Really go at it with 100% power & speed, because someone almost always got hurt. In judo, I'd say about 70% of the classes I was in, at least at some point we were going full-tilt in some regard. It is both a body conditioning, and mind-conditioning thing.  When de caca strikes de ventilateur… you've already been there and done that and you don't need to "adapt," as that learning has already taken place, back on the mat.

And... really... if you've got a good block and entry into a hip throw... most of the time that fight's going to be over.  Still, judo's got weaknesses, just like everything else... if the judoka can't close, he'she is not going to have any success and will probably leave with some inflamed and/or bruised parts. It's a thing.

Still, I like it as a fundamental, basic SD system.


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## TMA17 (May 26, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Since I started doing judo in '95, after about a year of it (after about 15 years of TKD/HKD then 5 years of Muay Thai at that point) I generated much the same opinion of judo as an excellent SD system as the copied info/statements in the O/P.
> 
> I think that, much as was mentioned above, judo's main advantage as a SD "system" is how it is regularly taught & trained.  Almost every single class you, as a student or instructor (little difference in a good judo class as to who's doing what) end up doing at least a few minutes of freework naewaza (groundwork, rolling, call it whatever you want). Lots of the time it's full power, so that people can start learning right away that it really is Not about how strong you are, though strength is a nice tool to have in the kit.  AND you also do at least a few minutes of randori, in which you can amp it down or up as the two individuals want... younger guys almost always are going at it hard and fast, the older folks are going slower and smooth.  But, every single day there's an aspect of free practice to bring the random nature of the universe into play... and it regularly gets going what I call full-tilt bozo, so you rapidly get used to that, too.
> 
> ...



I really enjoy Judo for those reasons.  It's a great workout .  BJJ would be second, but it's slower paced and very technical to me.  As you mentioned, with striking you're never going 100% and even at 50%, that's too much.  I've got hit the head a few times.  It's not good for the brain.  The intensity of Judo is what I like.  And you develop strong gripping.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 27, 2019)

Seems like a fair enough assessment, judo does focus on the standup which is more useful to more people most of the time.   How ever is there any difference in break falls or the extent they are practiced?    I keep forgetting if BJJ does that or not.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> I normally don't like posting these types of things, but sometimes it's fun LOL.  I thought this guy made a good case for Judo over BJJ.  Both are great and both emphasize different things.
> 
> "As far as BJJ vs. Judo i'll have to side with judo from my experiences, but i am not saying bjj is useless by any means.
> My background is wrestling, judo and only currently about 3 years of bjj. In all the fights i've been in, wrestling and judo have been a better foundation for several reasons outside of dirty street tactics:
> ...


I have a bit of experience in both, and a preference - from a SD standpoint - for the way I was taught in Judo. There was more ground work than I think is common today, so more focus on ending the throw into a controlling position on the ground.

I agree with the reasoning you put forth. I'd also guess that MMA-oriented BJJ schools do a better job in some of those areas (speed of execution, for instance) than those that specialize in BJJ competitions. When nobody is going to hit you, it's easier to be slow and painstaking.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> Great points.
> 
> He wasn’t anybody of significance.  Some random comment on Reddit.


Out of etiquette, can you post a link back to the Reddit source?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Rat said:


> Seems like a fair enough assessment, judo does focus on the standup which is more useful to more people most of the time.   How ever is there any difference in break falls or the extent they are practiced?    I keep forgetting if BJJ does that or not.


That likely varies by BJJ school, but they don't depend upon them to the level Judo does, so probably don't train them to the level Judo does. I could see training BJJ with only rudimentary instruction in falling.


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## Yokozuna514 (May 28, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> A high velocity take down has, for a number of times, ended fights


   100% agree.   Judo is a great self defence MA for many of the reasons you've stated.   The only thing I would add is practicing break falls, I am sure, has also kept me alive in various accidents and tumbles I have been in over the years.  It was either the break falls or I was super lucky.  Maybe a bit of both......


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> 100% agree.   Judo is a great self defence MA for many of the reasons you've stated.   The only thing I would add is practicing break falls, I am sure, has also kept me alive in various accidents and tumbles I have been in over the years.  It was either the break falls or I was super lucky.  Maybe a bit of both......


I think being used to falling in odd contortions helps when you're falling unexpectedly. I tend to catch myself well far more often than I think most folks would, just because a fall doesn't seem quite so surprising to me.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

I've posted this before;  Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in his era.  William Fairbairn had his Judo BB certs signed by Kano himself.  When WWII Combatives was created and implemented during WWII, no Judo was incorporated into the system.  According to O'Neill, Judo is useless in combat unless the enemy is wearing a heavy gi.  Don't get mad at me, that was their opinion when developing WWII combatives which is a highly effective, and brutal combat system.  Gross motor skill simple and retained in long term memory.  

Judo is a sport and was designed to be a sport.  Doesn't mean that some elements can't be somewhat useful, but they have to be modified to the real world environment.  For example, the technique in question needs to be effective regardless of what the attacker (an attacker, not an opponent) is wearing or not wearing.  Please note that I'm not disrespecting Judo, simply that it wasn't designed for SD.  

I work with a 2nd Dan in Judo.  He's 6'8 and over 300lbs with matching strength.  He and I have been in many uses-of-force on-duty.  He's never used Judo techniques as taught but has had to modify them for use in actual violent encounters.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've posted this before;  Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in his era.  William Fairbairn had his Judo BB certs signed by Kano himself.  When WWII Combatives was created and implemented during WWII, no Judo was incorporated into the system.  According to O'Neill, Judo is useless in combat unless the enemy is wearing a heavy gi.  Don't get mad at me, that was their opinion when developing WWII combatives which is a highly effective, and brutal combat system.  Gross motor skill simple and retained in long term memory.
> 
> Judo is a sport and was designed to be a sport.  Doesn't mean that some elements can't be somewhat useful, but they have to be modified to the real world environment.  For example, the technique in question needs to be effective regardless of what the attacker (an attacker, not an opponent) is wearing or not wearing.  Please note that I'm not disrespecting Judo, simply that it wasn't designed for SD.
> 
> I work with a 2nd Dan in Judo.  He's 6'8 and over 300lbs with matching strength.  He and I have been in many uses-of-force on-duty.  He's never used Judo techniques as taught but has had to modify them for use in actual violent encounters.


Just because someone said it, that doesn't make it true. I've used Judo in self-defense, against a guy wearing a normal t-shirt. It worked quite well. Much depends on whether you practice both with and without using the fabric for handholds.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> ust because someone said it, that doesn't make it true.



Depends on who is saying it.  When you have the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world, as well as Fairbairn himself making the assessment it tends to carry weight.  



gpseymour said:


> I've used Judo in self-defense, against a guy wearing a normal t-shirt. It worked quite well. Much depends on whether you practice both with and without using the fabric for handholds.



But then you're not practicing traditional Judo as designed by Kano for the sport arena.  And that's fine.  As I mentioned above, some elements can be useful if modified.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Depends on who is saying it.  When you have the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world, as well as Fairbairn himself making the assessment it tends to carry weight.


No, actually, it doesn't matter who says it - the saying doesn't ever make it true. If something is true, it is true regardless of who happens to say it. I know too many examples of people actually using their Judo training outside sport for me to simply accept the word of someone who says something.



> But then you're not practicing traditional Judo as designed by Kano for the sport arena.  And that's fine.  As I mentioned above, some elements can be useful if modified.


Actually, my Judo training was entirely focused on competition. That's what my instructor taught toward. He just felt you should be able to do the techniques without having to depend upon the cloth.

But that's beside the point. You're now delivering what's known as a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, my Judo training was entirely focused on competition. That's what my instructor taught toward. He just felt you should be able to do the techniques without having to depend upon the cloth.



Then your Judo training was modified and therefore not strictly focused on competition.  You can't have it both ways.  And this in turn COMPLETELY validates what O'Neill stated 70+ years ago.  If that's not to your liking, well, nothing I can really do with that.  Either accept what O'Neill stated (who very likely had more experience as a Judoka than you or anyone on this board) or don't accept it.  It is entirely up to you.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Then your Judo training was modified and therefore not strictly focused on competition.  You can't have it both ways.  And this in turn COMPLETELY validates what O'Neill stated 70+ years ago.  If that's not to your liking, well, nothing I can really do with that.  Either accept what O'Neill stated (who very likely had more experience as a Judoka than you or anyone on this board) or don't accept it.  It is entirely up to you.


Really? You know what my training was? That's pretty keen of you.

Well done.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

Thank you.  It wasn't difficult to surmise.


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## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

If you look close, at least some of those people are not wearing a Judo gi. Oh I know... they are not wearing a gi *and *doing it on the street, therefore they *modified *Judo. To my small mind, most of those throws and some of the pins looked very much like Judo kata. Besides, anyway you want to slice it, the practice of Judo certainly did help these folks in their self defense situations a lot more than it hurt them. (actually, it kind of looked like it did hurt a few of those on the receiving end...)


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Oh I know... they are not wearing a gi *and *doing it on the street, therefore they *modified *Judo.



Correct.  And btw, at about the 50 second mark is a prime example of why sport Judo (or any sport training) is detrimental to effective SD.  First, the one on top was more than content to stay on top and wrestle around.  The one on the bottom missed about a dozen opportunities to end the fight brutally.  Secondly, if just one of the crowd was a buddy and decided to punt one of their heads or just simply walk up and stomp on one of them, game over.  So prime example of sport training methodology not being the best training methodology for the situation.  The first demo in the video was another prime example where the guy goes to the ground on purpose.  You don't go to the ground on purpose in a SD situation unless the area is controlled, the perp is controlled and ready to be cuffed.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Then your Judo training was modified and therefore not strictly focused on competition.  You can't have it both ways.  And this in turn COMPLETELY validates what O'Neill stated 70+ years ago.  If that's not to your liking, well, nothing I can really do with that.  Either accept what O'Neill stated (who very likely had more experience as a Judoka than you or anyone on this board) or don't accept it.  It is entirely up to you.


I normally don't link (or point out) these fallacies, but you are about as close to asking for it as you can get without knocking on my door and saying "excuse me sir, what fallacy am I committing at the moment?"

Appeal to Authority


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## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Correct.


Well, I must admit, you have stumped me. You win! Now, please enlighten me on what I should study, if anything? By your definition, people should not be training anything for self defense or law enforcement. See, if you use said training outside of your training clothing and on the street... it is by your definition, modified... and all those things you learned in training will then be detrimental to you. So, since you can't figure out what everyone will be wearing, and it will happen outside your training place... every art has to be modified and you will have to overcome those detrimental things. Would I be better off not training anything, so as not to have developed bad habits that will need to be modified?





Go to 4:50 then skip to 5:15. Once you introduce more buddies on the other guys side... it sucks no matter if you are up or down. So, there is that.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

Well, like I said, I'm merely pointing out historical fact.  One may accept, reject or ignore it as they wish.


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## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Well, like I said, I'm merely pointing out historical fact. One may accept, reject or ignore it as they wish.


I am accepting. You are right... my training sucks and will get me killed. I am waiting for you to enlighten me with which art to train in... that does not also suffer from the same problems that you have shown me. You can offer me the correct art to be training in right? One that does not have the same problems? I'll wait.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Well, I must admit, you have stumped me. You win!



I was unaware that this was a contest.  I assumed it was a discussion, however, what I'm seeing is a bunch of folks that are easily offended at a differing point of view.  



wab25 said:


> By your definition, people should not be training anything for self defense or law enforcement.



Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion, as I've said nothing of the sort.  I have merely stated that sport training methodology is not only insufficient for self defense but a detriment.  I've maintained this for years on this board.  Many people over the years have understood this point.  Some, unfortunately don't.  



wab25 said:


> Now, please enlighten me on what I should study, if anything?



Anything based on a self-defense training methodology, if SD is your goal.  If it's sport, then continue training in whatever sport art you prefer.  Just don't confuse the two because they are separate.  However, if you are sincerely interested in things that constitute a SD training methodology;


Train in various types of regular clothing.
Train in dim light conditions.
Train on stairs, in an elevator, in a vehicle, between vehicles, on the sidewalk, in a parking lot, in an alley etc.
Don't train in a controlled, artificial environment, on soft and dry mats, with a single opponent that has agreed to abide by a rule set.
Train with conventional and improvised weapons.  
Train against multiple opponents.
Train to use de-escalation techniques.
Train for situational awareness.
That is a partial list.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I am accepting. You are right... my training sucks and will get me killed. I am waiting for you to enlighten me with which art to train in... that does not also suffer from the same problems that you have shown me. You can offer me the correct art to be training in right? One that does not have the same problems? I'll wait.



Ah, sarcasm.  

Well, what the heck, I've got some time.


S.P.E.A.R. (Tony Blauer)
P.C.R. (Ken Good)
Boatman Edged Weapon Defense
Real Krav Maga (as taught by the Israeli IDF and not the watered down sport version)
Israeli Instinctive Shooting
Anything I teach and have taught for the last 33+ years to military, L.E., Corrections, E.P. agents and private citizens.  
There, you are now enlightened.  Also, the above is not an exhaustive list but a good start.  Good luck in your journey.


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## TMA17 (May 28, 2019)

I will try and find that reddit quote.

I saw this today and thought it was a good list of points.

Top Ten Reasons Why Sport Judo is Effective – Judo Info

*4) Uchikomi and Muscle Memory*

The stress of a physical confrontation does not allow one to think about self-defense techniques; one must simple react and execute. Uchikomi supports this self-defense requirement. Uchikomi or form fitting a throwing technique is a judo training regimen that utilizes repetition to develop a throw as a natural body movement. With enough uchikomi a throw becomes second nature and the judoka does not think about its execution, but merely flows into the technique when the opportunity arises.


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## TMA17 (May 28, 2019)

I think the traits it builds up are important. It toughens you up, gets you in shape, improves your balance, and makes you hard to take down, act under pressure, etc. All good things to have.


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## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> S.P.E.A.R. (Tony Blauer)






Looks like lots of dry, soft mat work, plenty of lighting, controlled environments, even a ton of body armor. Single opponent training. However, if your attacker does not wear body armor or camo shorts and a t shirt, you will be force to "modify" your art, if it is also happening on the street.

I found this interesting (from: Blauer Tactical Systems):
"This explains why no one looks cool in a real fight and why you almost never see technical martial arts being used in real violent encounters."
Its interesting because you can find plenty of video of people using Judo and wrestling and BJJ in real life self defense situations. Youtube is your friend here.



Kong Soo Do said:


> P.C.R. (Ken Good)






Again, you have the issue of the other guy not wearing camo pants and a green t shirt... once again forcing you to "modify" your art on the street. More soft dry mat work, and great lighting. Single opponent training here too.

My point is not that these arts are bad. Its that they have the same issues you keep bringing up. Different clothing, great lighting, practicing on mats and other controlled environments.

Training for sport is different than training for self defense. That said, its much easier to find video of folks using Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, and Boxing successfully, with recognizable techniques than it is to find for many other arts. I think the emphasis on training in a fully resisting environment, and learning to pull off their techniques against full resistance is a big plus for applying in a self defense situation. There are many successful applications to be found. Yes, you can go through each one and show that *if *something were different, it would not have worked. But I can play that game with any art or system you want.

At the end of the day your argument is "but if he doesn't do/wear what they did in training... you must *modify *your art, and what you did train may be detrimental to you." Thats true of every type of training imaginable. They aren't going to grab you right, they aren't going to respond right, they aren't going to wear the right clothes and they sure as heck are not going to fall down when they are supposed to. Thats what the sport aspect is so good at... teaching you to respond and modify on the fly, under stress and to make the other guy go down, even if he does it wrong or doesn't want to go down.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

May be we should discussion the following issue:

Which part of the sport Judo training can deal with the fist flying situation?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thank you.  It wasn't difficult to surmise.


You have no idea, do you?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Correct.  And btw, at about the 50 second mark is a prime example of why sport Judo (or any sport training) is detrimental to effective SD.  First, the one on top was more than content to stay on top and wrestle around.  The one on the bottom missed about a dozen opportunities to end the fight brutally.  Secondly, if just one of the crowd was a buddy and decided to punt one of their heads or just simply walk up and stomp on one of them, game over.  So prime example of sport training methodology not being the best training methodology for the situation.  The first demo in the video was another prime example where the guy goes to the ground on purpose.  You don't go to the ground on purpose in a SD situation unless the area is controlled, the perp is controlled and ready to be cuffed.


Ah, confirmation bias at its finest.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Well, like I said, I'm merely pointing out historical fact.  One may accept, reject or ignore it as they wish.


No, you're really not.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Train against multiple opponents.


Agree that this part of training should be included.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be we should discussion the following issue:
> 
> Which part of the sport Judo training can deal with the fist flying situation?


And there we get to an actual issue with sport Judo training. This is an area where it tends to have gaps (same for sport BJJ, sport wrestling, etc.). Training oriented toward a sport that has a limited range (MMA's range is less limited than most, for example) will naturally tend to have gaps outside that range.

If I recall correctly, the early curriculum for Judo, contrary to assertions made by some, actually dealt with self-defense situations. There was an entire section, I think called goshin waza, for that purpose. I never got to that section - don't even know if my instructor ever taught it - so I'm not sure, but I'd expect it to include some punch-oriented defenses.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> ooks like lots of dry, soft mat work, plenty of lighting, controlled environments, even a ton of body armor. Single opponent training



Amazing that you surmised the totality of SPEAR and/or PCR training (normally a minimum of a 40 hour course each) in a 4 minute video.  If you think about it long enough, you'll see the flaw in your logic.  I certainly have.  Have you ever taken the actual course?  Of course you haven't.  I have, and also teach the course to HL professionals.  Guess what?  Part of the training is in dim light.  Part of the training is with weapons such as side arm and long gun.  Part of it with body armor and part of it in street clothes.  If you folks would stop being so butt-hurt then perhaps you'll start to have more understanding.  



wab25 said:


> Youtube is your friend here.



Or more accurately, YT provides you with a short clip, which you have no idea of the background, and then force it to fit your pre-conceived bias.  



wab25 said:


> Training for sport is different than training for self defense.



The only correct thing you've said thus far.  You should leave it at that and walk away with the satisfaction that you got that part correct.  



gpseymour said:


> You have no idea, do you?



Oh, actually I do.  I challenged your bias and you got butt-hurt from your first post instead of approaching it with the intention of a friendly discussion.  Which is what this board is suppose to be about.  Which, as a moderator, your suppose to not only adhere to, but encourage.  Perhaps you need to reconsider the mod hat.  In that I'm both a mod and an admin on various other boards, of various topics, you're not doing it well.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> include some punch-oriented defenses.


If the throwing training can include some punches, it can help a lot of the striking art and throwing art integration.


----------



## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which part of the sport Judo training can deal with the fist flying situation?


Most of it actually. Look up Gene Lebelle... he was a Judo guy who took a lot of challenge matches with different arts, and handled them quite well... including guys who could punch. While I am not a fan of Ronda Rousy, she went 12 and 0 in MMA, lots of fights in the UFC against gals that could punch. They eventually got her... but at the higher levels of MMA, they are going to give anyone problems. Also Karo Parisyan did well as a Judo player in MMA. I know Royce Gracie is bjj, but he won 3 of the first 4 tournaments (these tournaments took place in one night) and then went 30 minutes with Ken Shamrock, before he took a significant punch to the face. I remember the commentator saying "Now we will see if Royce can take a punch." Judo done well, does not give you much time to punch. Your first punch better be good against a Judo player, because you might not get another chance... and his throw is good.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Oh, actually I do. I challenged your bias and you got butt-hurt from your first post instead of approaching it with the intention of a friendly discussion. Which is what this board is suppose to be about. Which, as a moderator, your suppose to not only adhere to, but encourage. Perhaps you need to reconsider the mod hat. In that I'm both a mod and an admin on various other boards, of various topics, you're not doing it well.


Actually, no. See, I'm not a Judo guy (I trained in it years ago, and used it effectively). I just happen to know too many people who've made effective use of it to buy into a couple of quotes by someone with an obvious bias against sport arts. You've demonstrated nothing, given no real evidence, and claimed "truth". That's pretty shoddy.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Most of it actually. Look up Gene Lebelle... he was a Judo guy who took a lot of challenge matches with different arts, and handled them quite well... including guys who could punch. While I am not a fan of Ronda Rousy, she went 12 and 0 in MMA, lots of fights in the UFC against gals that could punch. They eventually got her... but at the higher levels of MMA, they are going to give anyone problems. Also Karo Parisyan did well as a Judo player in MMA. I know Royce Gracie is bjj, but he won 3 of the first 4 tournaments (these tournaments took place in one night) and then went 30 minutes with Ken Shamrock, before he took a significant punch to the face. I remember the commentator saying "Now we will see if Royce can take a punch." Judo done well, does not give you much time to punch. Your first punch better be good against a Judo player, because you might not get another chance... and his throw is good.


But you still have not indicated which part of the Judo training can be used to deal with the fist flying situation.

In Chinese wrestling, we use rhino guard, zombie arm, double spears strategy, and octopus strategy to deal with incoming fists. What does Judo use?


----------



## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, no. See, I'm not a Judo guy (I trained in it years ago, and used it effectively). I just happen to know too many people who've made effective use of it to buy into a couple of quotes by someone with an obvious bias against sport arts. You've demonstrated nothing, given no real evidence, and claimed "truth". That's pretty shoddy.



Again, you're not a very good moderator.  You came off like a jerk from post one.  If you disagreed with me, you SHOULD have asked for additional information, additional clarification, additional information.  That would have promoted a more indepth discussion.  As it is now, you're mind is closed and your bias has taken hold of rational thought.  To bad, it could have been a much better conversation.


----------



## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> . You don't go to the ground on purpose in a SD situation unless the area is controlled, the perp is controlled and ready to be cuffed.



Wouldn't it be nice to be able to manipulate the forces of the universe to help you fight?

If we can shoot lightning bolts or create nuclear explosions. But sadly we can't right?

Wrong. 

Gravity is the only one of the universal forces we can use in a fight. So why not make them fight against your weight.

It's a superpower.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Again, you're not a very good moderator.  You came off like a jerk from post one.  If you disagreed with me, you SHOULD have asked for additional information, additional clarification, additional information.  That would have promoted a more indepth discussion.  As it is now, you're mind is closed and your bias has taken hold of rational thought.  To bad, it could have been a much better conversation.


Perhaps. But you made two posts in quick succession claiming two arts with a history of effective SD use aren't good for SD. And with far too much confidence in your own statements (which still seem to be largely based on a couple of quotes). I didn't care for your approach, and responded.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to be able to manipulate the forces of the universe to help you fight?
> 
> If we can shoot lightning bolts or create nuclear explosions. But sadly we can't right?
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of fighting on the ground, but sometimes that's a better choice even for those of us who don't like it.


----------



## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Most of it actually. Look up Gene Lebelle... he was a Judo guy who took a lot of challenge matches with different arts, and handled them quite well... including guys who could punch. While I am not a fan of Ronda Rousy, she went 12 and 0 in MMA, lots of fights in the UFC against gals that could punch. They eventually got her... but at the higher levels of MMA, they are going to give anyone problems. Also Karo Parisyan did well as a Judo player in MMA. I know Royce Gracie is bjj, but he won 3 of the first 4 tournaments (these tournaments took place in one night) and then went 30 minutes with Ken Shamrock, before he took a significant punch to the face. I remember the commentator saying "Now we will see if Royce can take a punch." Judo done well, does not give you much time to punch. Your first punch better be good against a Judo player, because you might not get another chance... and his throw is good.



One of our girls against a Judo Olympian.


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## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

Someone said something like:


Kong Soo Do said:


> Don't train in a controlled, artificial environment, on soft and dry mats, with a single opponent that has agreed to abide by a rule set.


I was pointing out how the first two "better than Judo" systems listed... did exactly those things. Care to guess where I was the first time I did blindfolded randori? (hint: a Judo mat, taking a Judo class)



Kong Soo Do said:


> Or more accurately, YT provides you with a short clip, which you have no idea of the background, and then force it to fit your pre-conceived bias.


You are the one bringing up the idea that you cannot use Judo or BJJ on the streets because they are not wearing a gi to grab or on a well lit soft mat. What the youtube clips show, are different real world situations, where real world people apply their Judo techniques... that work and are effective and even recognizable... without a gi or mat or lighting or a controlled environment. I don't need to know which guy was the good guy and which was the bad guy or if he was taking his lunch money or made a bad mamma joke to see that the training was successfully used out in the real world.


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## Headhunter (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps. But you made two posts in quick succession claiming two arts with a history of effective SD use aren't good for SD. And with far too much confidence in your own statements (which still seem to be largely based on a couple of quotes). I didn't care for your approach, and responded.


It's an opinion...he's entitled to his opinion just as you are


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan of fighting on the ground, but sometimes that's a better choice even for those of us who don't like it.



I have never understood the argument as it gets presented. It is as if the people who make the "Never go to the ground" comment don't understand how fighting works. 

Yes you can be sucker punched on the ground.( I have been sucker punched on the ground.) But you can also be sucker punched standing up.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> One of our girls against a Judo Olympian.


Wow, Bec did an amazing job with that early arm bar escape. That looked to be over right after they got to the ground.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> It's an opinion...he's entitled to his opinion just as you are


Yep, until he dismisses everyone else's simply because it disagrees with his own.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I have never understood the argument as it gets presented. It is as if the people who make the "Never go to the ground" comment don't understand how fighting works.
> 
> Yes you can be sucker punched on the ground.( I have been sucker punched on the ground.) But you can also be sucker punched standing up.


Agree. There are disadvantages to the ground in some circumstances. We could also name some disadvantages to staying standing under some circumstances.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps.



No 'perhaps' about it.  You did not espouse the characteristics of a good moderator.  Plain and simple.  And you continued in it and now your making excuses;



gpseymour said:


> But you made two posts in quick succession...



So?  I haven't been by this board in a while and saw two threads that were of interest to me, in which I have experience and which I have an opinion.



gpseymour said:


> ...claiming two arts with a history of effective SD use aren't good for SD.



And in my professional opinion, they are DON'T have a history of effective SD and ARE NOT good for SD.  And last I checked, I'm entitled to my opinion and allowed to express it.  And I did so in a candid manner based upon my experience.



gpseymour said:


> And with far too much confidence in your own statements (which still seem to be largely based on a couple of quotes).



And who are you to judge?  If I didn't have confidence in something I wouldn't post.  And as a matter of fact, I DO have confidence in my statements because I HAVE studied WWII combatives and the men who formulated it.  And two of them DID have high level training in Judo and DID make the statement I quoted.  It isn't a secret, it's history.  From the Journal of Asian Martial Arts for one source of confirmation.  And I DO know Royce when he taught at SEPSI (because I taught there as well).  And I know the history of why he no longer teaches there i.e. it was not an effective training course for L.E. and that's fact.



gpseymour said:


> I didn't care for your approach, and responded.



I am not responsible for how you read or take a post.  I posted factually, candidly and honestly.  It's been a while since I've been here, but that used to be appreciated going all the way back to the beginning of this board (when I first joined).


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I posted factually


This is where I have a problem with your posts. You claim you are being factual. You are asserting an opinion. One you've not supported with any significant evidence. And when others pointed out evidence to the contrary, you just dismiss it. I don't let that slide.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> ARE NOT good for SD.


Many years ago, 2 MA guys fought against many opponents and knocked down many Until their opponents threw rocks at these 2 guys and send both to EM. When friends visited these 2 guys, one guy said, "My MA teacher didn't teach me how to dodge throwing rocks".


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## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But you still have not indicated which part of the Judo training can deal with the fist flying situation.


You are asking a very wide open question. Once the Judo guy grabs you, his aim is to take your balance. Once he has taken your balance, your flying fist won't do much... there is no structure or power behind it. From that point on, he will throw you, pin you and submit or choke you out. Unless you can escape, your flying fist will be ineffective. Their entire curriculum is based on taking balance, throwing, pinning and submitting without allowing the opponent out. So, pretty much all of Judo prevents the flying fist situation. This of course means that it has to be done right. Thats the challenge for all arts. Do your zombie arms wrong, and you get punched. Do your rhino guard wrong... you get punched.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> In Chinese wrestling, we use rhino guard, zombie arm, double spears strategy, and octopus strategy to deal with incoming fists. What does Judo use?


You are probably talking about the entering strategy. Judo practices quick entering strategy. They fight over getting a grip on the lapel. In Judo, you want to grab their lapel, and prevent yours from being grabbed. Much of this can translate to preventing straight punches pretty easily. For the round punches, they move in closer. But the biggest defense is that they close too fast and stay too close to be punched. Again, ideally. But to defeat that with punches, means to maintain your distance... which also needs to be done correctly. Now, you have two fighters trying to make the other make a mistake. Its not which art is better, its which fighter is better, on that occurrence.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Wow, Bec did an amazing job with that early arm bar escape. That looked to be over right after they got to the ground.



Yeah. There was a focus on being able to stand up in that camp.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Agree. There are disadvantages to the ground in some circumstances. We could also name some disadvantages to staying standing under some circumstances.



It is like any defense to anything. You are looking at risk vs reward to what is a dynamic  puzzle. 

What I think people don't factor in is the speed in which fights happen. So you can't really be expected to be eating punches from one guy and keeping of who his potential allies are.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> This is where I have a problem with your posts. You claim you are being factual.



Then you should have asked for confirmation.  I can get you the volume and page number of the article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts as one source for O'Neill's position.  That would have continued this conversation along an entirely different path, which is the purpose of this board.



gpseymour said:


> I don't let that slide.



And you acted in a way unbecoming of a moderator.  I don't let that slide either.  You chose to pop of with an attitude from the get-go instead of looking for a more in-depth discussion.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. There was a focus on being able to stand up in that camp.


Whatever they did in that camp, it worked.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Then you should have asked for confirmation.  I can get you the volume and page number of the article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts as one source for O'Neill's position.  That would have continued this conversation along an entirely different path, which is the purpose of this board.


Quotes, in and of themselves aren't evidence. I've raised that point more than once. You posited some actual points that you suggested are problematic, and someone else raised the point that those same things exist in the training environment for SD systems, too.

What, really, is the problem with sport training transitioning to SD?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Once the Judo guy grabs you, his aim is to take your balance.


I'm not talking about after a clinch has been established. I'm talking about before that.

I don't believe without a special training, a Judo guy can deal with boxer's punch. If a Judo guy has never fought in boxing ring, how will he be able to develop that "anti-striking" skill?

The same question can also be asked about a boxer. If a boxer has never wrestled on the mat, how will he be able to develop his "resist for throwing" skill? What kind of boxer's training that can be used to deal with a take down?

I have spent the past many years in "anti-striking" strategy. I just like to know from a Judo guy point of view, what's his "anti-striking" strategy.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 28, 2019)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
This is a friendly martial arts forum. Please refrain from any personal attacks towards other posters, and have discussions in a civilized manner. Thank you.

William H
@kempodisciple 
MartialTalk Moderator


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Quotes, in and of themselves aren't evidence.



I posted what O'Neill, the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world during his era stated in regards to Judo, it's effectiveness and it's exclusion from WWII combatives.  That is factual, it is history.  If someone wishes to disagree with his assessment 70+ years later, they are welcome to do so.  In my opinion, he was and is correct.  



gpseymour said:


> What, really, is the problem with sport training transitioning to SD?



If the training is geared towards SD, nothing at all.  The question, as I understood it, was sport Judo being effective for SD.  In my opinion, it is not and is in fact detrimental.  Can it be modified to be effective?  Yes.  Can the parameters be changed in the training methodology to give the student a higher % chance of success?  Yes.  But then it is NOT traditional Judo as it was designed to be by Kano.  Judo was designed, on purpose, to be used in sport.  Sport competitions, by there very nature, are artificial environments.  

Can a sport Judoka get lucky on the street?  Yes.  Can they face someone that can be surprised and defeated?  Yes.  Is chance the best thing to bet your life on?  No.  Better to have a SD focused methodology right from the beginning to give you the highest % chance of success.  That way if the perp is high, has friends or a weapon you will have at least trained for that possibility.  Traditional Judo does NOT train for those possibilities.


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## Headhunter (May 28, 2019)

Guys at the end of the day....does it really matter? Judo guys will continue to train judo taekwondo guys will continue taekwondo. What's the point of this argument since it's gone beyond a discussion. Let's just all hug and move on now


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## Headhunter (May 28, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> *ATTENTION ALL USERS:
> *
> This is a friendly martial arts forum. Please refrain from any personal attacks towards other posters, and have discussions in a civilized manner. Thank you.
> 
> ...


Yeah come on guys don't make the creepy spider account come here


----------



## jks9199 (May 28, 2019)

Some friendly observations, because I really don't want to go unfriendly and start awarding points...

The Moderation Staff, especially Administrators, decide whether people,especially Moderators, are behaving appropriately. If you have concetns, use the Report function to let us know.  Modetators have been firef, and tbe Board Founder even got suspended...  We do strive to be fair.

When any Staff member participates in a thread, they do so as a fellow user, unless they are actively moderating,  like, oh, offering a word or two to the wise.  They do not participate in the moderation of a thread or backroom discussion about one in which they are involved, outside of extraordinary circumstances that require quick action.

So maybe we can drop the insults and shots all around and return to the discussion of Judo and self defense...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't believe without a special training, a Judo guy can deal with boxer's punch.






The boxer was wearing brass knuckles inside his gloves and had been ranked as high as fourth in the world in his weight class. 

Can he out box him? No. But it really comes down to who gets what they need first. The boxer needs to not only to hit the other guy, but knock him out. So, he has to maintain punching range until he gets the KO. Otherwise, he has to reestablish punching range and try again. Judo guy has to close distance. He may smother, block or slip the punch, follow the punch or take a punch to do so. Again, this comes down to the two fighters that day. I gave you a couple names to research. Another video was posted here. At the end of the day, they are all just single data points. Its down to the fighter and which one can take the other out of their comfort zone. There is no clear winner, which is why the classic MMA match is between a striker and a grappler. Lots of winners on either side.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I posted what O'Neill, the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world during his era stated in regards to Judo, it's effectiveness and it's exclusion from WWII combatives. That is factual, it is history. If someone wishes to disagree with his assessment 70+ years later, they are welcome to do so. In my opinion, he was and is correct.



When did he compete?And who did he beat? And under what rule set?

I mean we have guys like Dan Kelly who is an exceptional Judoka who has made very effective use of judo as a combative system.

Actually I would remove hip throws from military combatives but that is because it takes too long to be good at and you give your back up.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Guys at the end of the day....does it really matter? Judo guys will continue to train judo taekwondo guys will continue taekwondo. What's the point of this argument since it's gone beyond a discussion. Let's just all hug and move on now



Depends if you want a functional self defense system or a hobby. 

A hobby us a personally satisfying pursuit but not all that effective if you wanted to win a fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Can he out box him? No. But it really comes down to who gets what they need first.


I agree with everything that you have said here. But my concern is in an average Judo school, the "anti-striking" training is not included.

The grip fight training is not the same as the anti-striking training.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> If the training is geared towards SD, nothing at all. The question, as I understood it, was sport Judo being effective for SD. In my opinion, it is not and is in fact detrimental. Can it be modified to be effective? Yes. Can the parameters be changed in the training methodology to give the student a higher % chance of success? Yes. But then it is NOT traditional Judo as it was designed to be by Kano. Judo was designed, on purpose, to be used in sport. Sport competitions, by there very nature, are artificial environments.



You are supposed to train self defense in an artificial environment.

There are a whole bunch of fight winning tools developed by that environment.

Warrior ethos is one tool that is championed by modern army combatives.


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## wab25 (May 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> When did he compete?And who did he beat? And under what rule set?


I believe this is the guy he was referring to: America's deadliest Irishman - the Irish James Bond


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> When did he compete?



During the 30's and 40's and possibly earlier.  I don't recall offhand when he started.



drop bear said:


> And who did he beat?



IIRC, everyone he competed against.  He was at least 5th Dan by the time of WWII which for that era was amazingly high for a non-Japanese.  However, O'Neill is not remembered for his Judo skills but rather his time in WWII combatives and the FSSF.  The movie, 'The Devil's Brigade' is loosely based on him in one of the characters.



drop bear said:


> And under what rule set?



Well, he and Fairbairn had their certs signed by Kano so I'm assuming the rule set he developed up to that era.  



drop bear said:


> Actually I would remove hip throws from military combatives but that is because it takes too long to be good at and you give your back up.



This time may be the first time we have agreed on something.  More to the point, doing some techniques, whether it is a throw, a take down or kick is different in traditional martial arts uniforms or even street clothes than in a full duty belt and body armor.  These things must be taken into account as well as the knowledge that at least one firearm is present in every altercation...yours.  Something traditional training, be it Judo or TKD or whatever does not address unless the instructor deviates from a traditional curriculum, which I would consider a good thing if the focus is on SD.  If it's on sport, then such things don't matter.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I believe this is the guy he was referring to: America's deadliest Irishman - the Irish James Bond



Yes, that was O'Neill.  When he taught knife defense he used an actual knife.  He'd give a real blade to the student and told him to cut/stab him if they could.  No one ever could.  O'Neill, Fairbairn, Applegate, Sykes etc were a special breed.  My grandfather received this training during WWII to compliment his ability as a golden glove boxer.  It was brutal, but effective.  And more importantly, retained in long term memory.  I've touched on that here before.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> You are supposed to train self defense in an artificial environment.



No.  SD is trained on mats, on concrete, on grass, in an elevator, in a car, lying in bed, on stairs etc.  Not in a environment where you are facing one, and only one unarmed opponent that has agreed to abide by a set of rules.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> No.  SD is trained on mats, on concrete, on grass, in an elevator, in a car, lying in bed, on stairs etc.  Not in a environment where you are facing one, and only one unarmed opponent that has agreed to abide by a set of rules.



The bulk of self defense training really isnt if you wanted it to work. Because you are not really developing car self defense skills. When you could be training basic problem solving or even fitness.

These environmental concerns are 10% of the fight. But people will spend 90% of the time focused on them. 

Where better basics trained in real time and in some sort of sensible manner will provide much more reward for effort. 

And this is the same in sport as well. We all might want to know that super submission or the fight ending blow. But will be better fighters if we train positions or escapes.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes, that was O'Neill.  When he taught knife defense he used an actual knife.  He'd give a real blade to the student and told him to cut/stab him if they could.  No one ever could.  O'Neill, Fairbairn, Applegate, Sykes etc were a special breed.  My grandfather received this training during WWII to compliment his ability as a golden glove boxer.  It was brutal, but effective.  And more importantly, retained in long term memory.  I've touched on that here before.



Should have given a fake blade. People would have tried harder.


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## JP3 (May 28, 2019)

You guys are still beating this up?

OK, well let me toss this in, then.  The World War II Combatives didn't have judo in it, I suppose.  However, I think the "modern" Army Combatives just might, along with a bunch of other really nifty-cool ways to end a fight in a hurry. I cite my own info to Command Sergeant Major Randy Leatherwood (retired), 6th Dan USJA, who is a really cool, but one bad-dude mo-fo, who won the Army Combatives tournament... though I don't think it's called a tournament? Anyway, he's won it twice. Main art, judo. Main technique to finish the majority of his bouts? Harai-goshi or a spinninging-entry uchimata.  Randy is a big dude, coming in at 255-260 lbs, and his throws, especially for the combative competition, end up with his weight on his opponent, driving them into the mat.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

We have to admit that there are something missing in a pure wrestling art, or a pure striking art. How to fill that hole is the concern that all MMA instructors (or Sanda instructors) will be interested in.

In this match, the wrestler did very good. But since the rule did not allow head punch, it's toward the wrestler's advantage.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I believe this is the guy he was referring to: America's deadliest Irishman - the Irish James Bond



Cool. Thanks.


----------



## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

JP3 said:


> You guys are still beating this up?
> 
> OK, well let me toss this in, then.  The World War II Combatives didn't have judo in it, I suppose.  However, I think the "modern" Army Combatives just might, along with a bunch of other really nifty-cool ways to end a fight in a hurry. I cite my own info to Command Sergeant Major Randy Leatherwood (retired), 6th Dan USJA, who is a really cool, but one bad-dude mo-fo, who won the Army Combatives tournament... though I don't think it's called a tournament? Anyway, he's won it twice. Main art, judo. Main technique to finish the majority of his bouts? Harai-goshi or a spinninging-entry uchimata.  Randy is a big dude, coming in at 255-260 lbs, and his throws, especially for the combative competition, end up with his weight on his opponent, driving them into the mat.



Having judo is different to trying to learn it in 8 weeks or whatever.

And I think that is where the disconnect lies. You see super Judo go out and wreck fools. And then you try it and get choked out.

I mean I am working on handstand and cartwheel kicks at the moment. Top guys can wreck people with them. But no matter if I became a master at it. I still wouldn't suggest someone who may get in to a fight in 8 weeks ever uses it.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This time may be the first time we have agreed on something. More to the point, doing some techniques, whether it is a throw, a take down or kick is different in traditional martial arts uniforms or even street clothes than in a full duty belt and body armor. These things must be taken into account as well as the knowledge that at least one firearm is present in every altercation...yours. Something traditional training, be it Judo or TKD or whatever does not address unless the instructor deviates from a traditional curriculum, which I would consider a good thing if the focus is on SD. If it's on sport, then such things don't matter.



Only sort of.

What you are suggesting here is a sensible shift in the order of priorities.

But is almost always used as an argument for doing a bunch of dumb stuff that wouldn't work under any conditions.

Like arm bar wizzers and stuff.

Otherwise there are guys like the Trillo academy that do some nice police variations.






Now this is still pretty much competition BJJ except the order of priorities has changed.

That is important because then you are not using LARP elements to make your techniques work.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not talking about after a clinch has been established. I'm talking about before that.
> 
> I don't believe without a special training, a Judo guy can deal with boxer's punch. If a Judo guy has never fought in boxing ring, how will he be able to develop that "anti-striking" skill?
> 
> ...


The primary defense Judo has against a punch is their strong entry. You see strong entries used by grapplers in MMA to get inside strikers on a regular basis.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I posted what O'Neill, the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world during his era stated in regards to Judo, it's effectiveness and it's exclusion from WWII combatives.  That is factual, it is history.  If someone wishes to disagree with his assessment 70+ years later, they are welcome to do so.  In my opinion, he was and is correct.


His statement is based on his experience, but you've depended mostly upon the argument from authority in citing that quote. You haven't presented much in the way of actual reasons why sport-oriented arts (not to be confused with the actual sport competition, which you seem to have done) are such a bad choice for SD. If he made good points in his article, cite them.



> If the training is geared towards SD, nothing at all.  The question, as I understood it, was sport Judo being effective for SD.  In my opinion, it is not and is in fact detrimental.  Can it be modified to be effective?  Yes.  Can the parameters be changed in the training methodology to give the student a higher % chance of success?  Yes.  But then it is NOT traditional Judo as it was designed to be by Kano.  Judo was designed, on purpose, to be used in sport.  Sport competitions, by there very nature, are artificial environments.


The sport of Judo isn't the whole of Judo (nor is the sport of BJJ the whole of BJJ). Judo was designed to include sport, but included - at inception - specific techniques for self-defense. Not sure how you don't know that if you've actually looked into it at any length.



> Can a sport Judoka get lucky on the street?  Yes.  Can they face someone that can be surprised and defeated?  Yes.  Is chance the best thing to bet your life on?  No.  Better to have a SD focused methodology right from the beginning to give you the highest % chance of success.  That way if the perp is high, has friends or a weapon you will have at least trained for that possibility.  Traditional Judo does NOT train for those possibilities.


Yeah, you really don't know much about traditional Judo. Nor have you presented much evidence that sport training (remember, my Judo training didn't include the goshin waza that are part of tradtional Judo) should automatically fail in a SD situation.

Here's what you've missed in your knee-jerk reaction: I teach a SD-oriented system, and don't train for sport. And you can't even convince me. See, there are definitely opportunities for a gap if you only train for sport. But that's not the totality of Judo, at all. And even if that were the totality, there's a really good argument (@drop bear makes it well) that training for and participating in sport is a good way to develop skills that will translate to the street.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah come on guys don't make the creepy spider account come here


That one always shuts me up.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> During the 30's and 40's and possibly earlier.  I don't recall offhand when he started.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A quick note (and really, I'm not poking at you here) - you've crossed up the two threads we're discussing in. The BJJ thread is the one focused on LEO.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 28, 2019)

On the original question of Judo vs BJJ for self-defense, a lot depends on how it is taught. Old school BJJ has a pretty sound methodology for dealing with strikes and other common untrained attacks as well as a reasonably effective takedown game. I don't think I've ever trained at a Judo school where they actually practiced sparring against punches. Given the choice of a classic BJJ school and a Judo school that only trains for sport, I'd take the BJJ school.

On the other hand, more and more BJJ schools seem to train just for tournament competition and neglect takedowns and dealing with strikes. Given the choice between one of those and a decent Judo dojo, I'd go for the Judo.

Since I've never seen or trained at a Judo dojo that had a strong self-defense focus, I can't evaluate how good their methodology might be. I've seen judoka who can definitely fight, but I don't know the training methodology that got them there.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Explanations as to why sport doesn't work pretty much after being directly bashed by a sports fighter.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 28, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Train in various types of regular clothing.


Done that with my BJJ. It's still just BJJ.


Kong Soo Do said:


> Train in dim light conditions.


Done that. It's still just BJJ.


Kong Soo Do said:


> Train on stairs, in an elevator, in a vehicle, between vehicles, on the sidewalk, in a parking lot, in an alley etc.


Done that. It's a fun exercise and helps with mental flexibility. (Can't really spar full out on stairs without someone getting hurt though.) It's still 90-95% the same fundamentals with 5-10% situational adjustment. The important thing is to develop usable foundational skills and then you can periodically try them out in various environments to get used to adapting as necessary.


Kong Soo Do said:


> Don't train in a controlled, artificial environment, on soft and dry mats, with a single opponent that has agreed to abide by a rule set.


Every training environment has controls and rules that your training partners abide by. That's how we don't all end up in the hospital after every training session.

I think a better way of expressing your point would be "Don't always train in the same environment and with the same rule set. Mix it up and see what changes."

BTW - the advantage of working on mats is that you can train much longer and harder and thereby develop more functional skill. Suppose you want to be able to throw someone onto the ground. You're going to start with drilling the throw on a cooperative partner - hundreds of reps, thousands if you want to get really good at it. Then you're going to have go live, sparring against a resisting opponent. Lots of hours doing that and often the throws won't end up being as safe and controlled because your opponent is fighting you the whole way. 

I think you're going to have a difficult time finding a training partner who is going to be willing to take thousands of hard falls on concrete.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Train with conventional and improvised weapons.


Done that. I'll freely admit that BJJ is an unarmed fighting art, so I draw from other sources (mostly FMA) when using weapons. I do make good use of my BJJ when clinching or tied up on the ground with someone who has a weapon.


Kong Soo Do said:


> Train against multiple opponents.


Done that. I do have to say that, regardless of the system you are training, fighting one against many is very low percentage unless you have superior weaponry or vastly superior skills and physical attributes. Usually the best option is to survive, disengage, and run.


Kong Soo Do said:


> Train to use de-escalation techniques.


De-escalation is really important and I've been moderately successful at it over the years. However, I've trained with hundreds of instructors from dozens of arts over the years and I don't think any of them had any special qualifications to teach de-escalation skills. I think it's hard to find individuals who have legitimate skills and experience in de-escalation and also know how to teach those skills in a systematic way. Finding someone who can teach those skills in a manner appropriate for a civilian self-defense context (as opposed to application for a LEO, doorman, social worker, etc) is even harder. Anyway, those skills don't necessarily have to be bundled with a specific martial art. 


Kong Soo Do said:


> Train for situational awareness.


I've worked on that, although it really isn't something specific to any particular martial art. You can practice situational awareness with your Karate, Judo, Wing Chun, BJJ, Bujinkan Taijutsu, Kali, Tae Kwon Do, Boxing, MMA, whatever.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've worked on that, although it really isn't something specific to any particular martial art. You can practice situational awareness with your Karate, Judo, Wing Chun, BJJ, Bujinkan Taijutsu, Kali, Tae Kwon Do, Boxing, MMA, whatever.



That raises another issue. You can't just train it. It also has to actually work. 

And so you need some way of determining if it works. 

And that is super hard.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Done that with my BJJ. It's still just BJJ.
> 
> Done that. It's still just BJJ.
> 
> ...


Great post, Tony. Especially good points about de-escalation and situational awareness. I've personally been looking at those again lately, looking for some way to do something valuable with them.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> That raises another issue. You can't just train it. It also has to actually work.
> 
> And so you need some way of determining if it works.
> 
> And that is super hard.


That is the hardest part. Role-playing is just another kind of training with a compliant partner.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You can practice situational awareness with your Karate, Judo, Wing Chun, BJJ, Bujinkan Taijutsu, Kali, Tae Kwon Do, Boxing, MMA, whatever.


Is that just common sense such as stay away from trouble? Do you really need to train it?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is that just common sense such as stay away from trouble? Do you really need to train it?


I wouldn't think you'd need to, but I've learned a thing or two and had some interesting "aha!" reactions from folks when I discussed the topic. So, there is some value in teaching it, if you can manage to teach valid stuff (hard to verify) in a way that people actually learn in a way they can apply (harder to verify).


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## Tony Dismukes (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is that just common sense such as stay away from trouble? Do you really need to train it?


It's harder to stay away from trouble if you don't see it coming.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is that just common sense such as stay away from trouble? Do you really need to train it?


There are instructions on how to use a toothpick. I've heard of a job where someone just tells people to look straight on an elevator so they don't accidentally fall off or trip at the bottom. Some things that really shouldn't need to be trained, do.


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## JR 137 (May 28, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Done that with my BJJ. It's still just BJJ.
> 
> Done that. It's still just BJJ.
> 
> ...


Best post I’ve read here in quite a long time.

There’s a difference between learning techniques and learning principles. Individual techniques don’t work under many different scenarios. Principles work under just about all scenarios.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Done that with my BJJ. It's still just BJJ.


When Shuai-Chiao (SC) has integrated kick and punch into it, it's called Combat Shuai-Chiao (CSC).


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## Tony Dismukes (May 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When Shuai-Chiao (SC) has integrated kick and punch into it, it's called Combat Shuai-Chiao (CSC).


Same thing for Sambo. Combat Sambo competition rules allow punches, kicks and head butts as well as all the normal grappling techniques.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That is the hardest part. Role-playing is just another kind of training with a compliant partner.



Yeah.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Train in various types of regular clothing.


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## TMA17 (May 30, 2019)

Classes — OSAGAME

"n our Free-Style Judo class, students will learn techniques that may no longer be legal in a modern, standard IJF Judo competition.   Freestyle Judo is more similar to older versions of Judo than modern IJF rules.   The main differences are that leg grabs are allowed, and competitors accumulate points within a match.  Matches *cannot* be ended by pin; they end only by submission, Ippon, or by a 12 point lead.   Further explanation of the rules can be given in class."

No contract too.


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## Hanzou (Jun 1, 2019)

While I have always admired Judo, if we're doing Judo vs BJJ for self defense, I'd have to give the edge to BJJ. Especially if we're talking about more traditional Gracie Bjj propagated by Rickson and Relson, or even MMA-focused BJJ.


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## JP3 (Jun 1, 2019)

Having done both Judo and BJJ, as to the efficacy, or of the "style" in general, without any cross-training in anything else... which hardly ever happens in any decent school, dojo or program, personally I'd take Judo for one reason only. In the BJJ schools I trained in/at, the vast majority of the training time was spent on the groundwork elements of BJJ, which to me acted to exclude "how you got down there."

I'll grant you, two folks with similar athletic skills and training mindsets... one goes into Judo the other into BJJ.  Average progression, and I'd have to take the BJJ person on the ground every time, if that's what the conflict is.  But, if they start in any other configuration other than both kneeling, or back-to-back, or wrestling style start of session, I'd go with the Judo.


I know other BJJ schools have more emphasis on their stand-up to ground portion, which to me would be key for it's use as a SD option, I've just never trained at one, or even visited one, where the emphasis was on the well-rounded, rather than BJJ tournament, game.  Note, nobody in these two schools did any MMA type stuff at all.  It's a very small sample size, and I get it.


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## TMA17 (Jun 2, 2019)

After 2 years of searching I finally found a school that teaches Judo & BJJ (Osagame in Philly).  It's rare you see that.


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## Hanzou (Jun 2, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Having done both Judo and BJJ, as to the efficacy, or of the "style" in general, without any cross-training in anything else... which hardly ever happens in any decent school, dojo or program, personally I'd take Judo for one reason only. In the BJJ schools I trained in/at, the vast majority of the training time was spent on the groundwork elements of BJJ, which to me acted to exclude "how you got down there."
> 
> I'll grant you, two folks with similar athletic skills and training mindsets... one goes into Judo the other into BJJ.  Average progression, and I'd have to take the BJJ person on the ground every time, if that's what the conflict is.  But, if they start in any other configuration other than both kneeling, or back-to-back, or wrestling style start of session, I'd go with the Judo.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I would highly recommend a Gracie JJ school. Those schools offer plenty of standup stuff. Also another advantage that BJJ has is no-gi training,and its rapid incorporation of modern wrestling.


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## TMA17 (Jun 2, 2019)

I think I've posted this before but does taking down someone have to be so complicated?  Judo is a beautiful art, but if one got reasonably good a just a handful of takedowns, I think that is sufficient to get 90% of people on the ground.  Even a football tackle would work lol.


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## Hanzou (Jun 2, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> I think I've posted this before but does taking down someone have to be so complicated?  Judo is a beautiful art, but if one got reasonably good a just a handful of takedowns, I think that is sufficient to get 90% of people on the ground.  Even a football tackle would work lol.



That's why the single and double leg takedown are banned in Judo competition, and in many Judo dojos. Some Judoka began to dominate Judo tournaments utilizing those type of leg attacks, negating the throws entirely.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> I think I've posted this before but does taking down someone have to be so complicated?  Judo is a beautiful art, but if one got reasonably good a just a handful of takedowns, I think that is sufficient to get 90% of people on the ground.  Even a football tackle would work lol.


With a limited toolset to defend (no strikes, etc.), it really doesn't need a wide range of tools to attack. But the concept, I think, was to require a wide range of abilities, so that it wasn't just about taking someone down. It was meant to require learning more than that, IMO.


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## frank raud (Jun 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be we should discussion the following issue:
> 
> Which part of the sport Judo training can deal with the fist flying situation?


  Kumi Kata.


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## frank raud (Jun 4, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I can get you the volume and page number of the article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts as one source for O'Neill's position


  Is this the passage you are referring to?   
 Although O’Neill had a strong background in Judo, he knew that Judo
required several years of hard training to acquire the necessary skill to throw a
man who was resisting and fighting back. He elected to teach a basically simple
system, based on what he called Chinese Foot Fighting

That's a question of time constraints, not efficacy. It's also not a quote, but the writing of my good friend Steve Brown.


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## frank raud (Jun 4, 2019)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've posted this before;  Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in his era.  William Fairbairn had his Judo BB certs signed by Kano himself.  When WWII Combatives was created and implemented during WWII, no Judo was incorporated into the system.  According to O'Neill, Judo is useless in combat unless the enemy is wearing a heavy gi.  Don't get mad at me, that was their opinion when developing WWII combatives which is a highly effective, and brutal combat system.  Gross motor skill simple and retained in long term memory.


 So, these figureheads of modern combatives spent years mastering an art that has no application in real life? Yet in Fairbairn's Scientific Self Defense, you can see a variety of throws including de ashi barai (foot sweep) and Kani basami (crab takedown). O'Neill felt it was necessary to include breakfalls and rear naked strangles, which can be seen in his works up until the 1971 FM21-150. Feldenkrais' Practical Unarmed Combat, which he taught to the Home Guard, is compromised of basically one technique, the rear naked choke. The 1942 FM21-150 acknowledges the teachings of Jigoro Kano as one of the major influences (and the shorter man in the photograghs is Anthony Flores, a judo lack belt). Throws were removed due to time constraints of teaching and the possibility of injury. I have a Canadian Army memo explaining why they refused the offer of Gordon Perrigard to teach Arwrology to the forces. It was because of the risk of injury to the troops, and the special equipment (mats) that were required to practice. The army continued to do Bacon wrestling, as it required no mats, and stopped when a person was lifted off the ground, so risk of injury was low and could be done anywhere.


PS. We could include James Hipkiss, Stan Bissell, Francois D'Eliscu and others who taught WWII combatives with a basis in judo.


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## drop bear (Jun 4, 2019)

frank raud said:


> So, these figureheads of modern combatives spent years mastering an art that has no application in real life? Yet in Fairbairn's Scientific Self Defense, you can see a variety of throws including de ashi barai (foot sweep) and Kani basami (crab takedown). O'Neill felt it was necessary to include breakfalls and rear naked strangles, which can be seen in his works up until the 1971 FM21-150. Feldenkrais' Practical Unarmed Combat, which he taught to the Home Guard, is compromised of basically one technique, the rear naked choke. The 1942 FM21-150 acknowledges the teachings of Jigoro Kano as one of the major influences (and the shorter man in the photograghs is Anthony Flores, a judo lack belt). Throws were removed due to time constraints of teaching and the possibility of injury. I have a Canadian Army memo explaining why they refused the offer of Gordon Perrigard to teach Arwrology to the forces. It was because of the risk of injury to the troops, and the special equipment (mats) that were required to practice. The army continued to do Bacon wrestling, as it required no mats, and stopped when a person was lifted off the ground, so risk of injury was low and could be done anywhere.
> 
> 
> PS. We could include James Hipkiss, Stan Bissell, Francois D'Eliscu and others who taught WWII combatives with a basis in judo.



Which to me makes a bit more sense. But also highlights the level of Chinese whispers that can occur within these communities.


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## JR 137 (Jun 5, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Which to me makes a bit more sense. But also highlights the level of Chinese whispers that can occur within these communities.


Point of order here...
Judo is Japanese, not Chinese.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Point of order here...
> Judo is Japanese, not Chinese.


Point of order has been raised, and has precedence over the matter on the floor. The chair recognizes the gentleman with the cool avatar.


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## frank raud (Jun 5, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> I think I've posted this before but does taking down someone have to be so complicated?  Judo is a beautiful art, but if one got reasonably good a just a handful of takedowns, I think that is sufficient to get 90% of people on the ground.  Even a football tackle would work lol.


 Most judoka only use a handful of takedowns or throws consistently. It is finding out which ones work for best for you that is complicated. You learn the entire curriculum to have knowledge of it, then develop your favorite techniques, and use others when the opportunity presents itself. Kibisu Gaeshi (ankle pick) will never be a popular throw, but it has its place.


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## JR 137 (Jun 5, 2019)

frank raud said:


> Most judoka only use a handful of takedowns or throws consistently. It is finding out which ones work for best for you that is complicated. You learn the entire curriculum to have knowledge of it, then develop your favorite techniques, and use others when the opportunity presents itself. Kibisu Gaeshi (ankle pick) will never be a popular throw, but it has its place.


Same with practitioners in every other art. Between the hands and elbows, there’s a ton of different ways to hit someone. I use very few different ones. Same for kicks, blocks, etc.

I knew a lot of throws, takedowns, reversals, and pinning combinations in wrestling. In almost 10 years of competing I consistently used very. I used many others once or twice when the situation dictated it.


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## frank raud (Jun 5, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Same with practitioners in every other art. Between the hands and elbows, there’s a ton of different ways to hit someone. I use very few different ones. Same for kicks, blocks, etc.
> 
> I knew a lot of throws, takedowns, reversals, and pinning combinations in wrestling. In almost 10 years of competing I consistently used very. I used many others once or twice when the situation dictated it.


Absolutely. Much as I love the various hip throws in judo, when I do randori with a 6'4" 300lb brown belt named Rocque, foot sweeps make much more sense


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## JR 137 (Jun 5, 2019)

frank raud said:


> Absolutely. Much as I love the various hip throws in judo, when I do randori with a 6'4" 300lb brown belt named Rocque, foot sweeps make much more sense


As much as I liked shooting single leg takedowns, when paired up with people several inches shorter and significantly lighter than me in practice, I had to do other things. Like force a tie-up and throw them. And as much as I liked tying up and using an arm-spin throw, when there was someone significantly stronger than me, I had to use things like the lateral throw to try to use their strength against them.

In my comfort zone, I was looking for very few things. From a tie-up, it was an arm-spin throw or a duck-under, depending on what they were giving me. Standing free, I was looking for a single leg takedown. On top, I was looking to break them down and run a half-nelson or arm bar. On the bottom, it was a switch or stand-up. On their back, it was a half-nelson or head and arm. 

That’s pretty much it. They worked for me. I practiced the Fireman’s carry, ankle pick, tilt, gramby roll, Navy ride, et al more times than I can count. How many times did I use them? Many of them 2-3 times at most in my career. Most of the time successfully. 

A big part of practicing them is learning how they’re set up so you don’t get caught with them too. By taking turns throwing each other with them, you get that feel and timing to take away that option for them. And you start learning to use certain throws to set up other throws (and other moves). I rarely used the head and arm throw, but practicing it taught me the timing to counter it with a dick under. I knew stand-up wouldn’t work on several opponents, so I’d start the stand-up, and would time a switch at the right moment during their counter.

The hidden benefit of knowing and practicing 20 different throws is learning to recognize them before it’s too late and being able to get yourself out of trouble before you get into it. Same for every other type of move. 

All IMO.


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## JP3 (Jun 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> The hidden benefit of knowing and practicing 20 different throws is learning to recognize them before it’s too late and being able to get yourself out of trouble before you get into it. Same for every other type of move.
> 
> All IMO.


I'd say you nailed it.  We go through all that training in the original 40... now, is it 65? judo throws so that we can know how they are executed... and I think most of that practice ends up being... you know what's coming as it starts so you know where to go and what to do so that they don't work on you.

Judo randori is a LOT of fun, and can be as mentally challenging as 3D chess. Which, really, is what it is.


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## frank raud (Jun 8, 2019)

JP3 said:


> I'd say you nailed it. We go through all that training in the original 40... now, is it 65? judo throws


 67


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## JR 137 (Jun 8, 2019)

JP3 said:


> I'd say you nailed it.  We go through all that training in the original 40... now, is it 65? judo throws so that we can know how they are executed... and I think most of that practice ends up being... you know what's coming as it starts so you know where to go and what to do so that they don't work on you.
> 
> Judo randori is a LOT of fun, and can be as mentally challenging as 3D chess. Which, really, is what it is.


What I really liked about wrestling was you had to think a couple moves ahead. But you really had to focus on exactly what you’re currently doing too, because if you got ahead of yourself and/or didn’t adjust to what he’s doing, you’re done.


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## JP3 (Jun 8, 2019)

frank raud said:


> 67


Thanks, Frank. I can't ever remember that number. After Mr. Haynes ran me through the gauntlet for my nidan demo... I think I intentionally blocked it out. Ugh. Still, ugh.

I had bought my uke, Austin, a case of beer to "compensate" for his volunteering to be my uke for the demo... we were so worn out and dehydrated after that demo we almost drank the whole case in less than an hour, sitting around talking. Again, ugh... different reason.


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