# Martial Arts Career



## K' Evans (Mar 11, 2007)

Some of you know that I just started taking up MA, so this question may seem too far-fetched now. But I have been doing some soul-searching and am interested in pursuing martial arts as a career option. I know that I have no regrets if I were to take this route. 

But from what little I have seen so far, it seems very hard to make a living in the martial arts world. My Sifu, who has a very admirable reputation (to me), openly talks about how hard it is to making a living in this line. Also, from reading the pages of martial arts mags, it seems quite a number of martial artists are in the security and law enforcement industry or perhaps in the military training elite soldiers. I can't say this is the career path I wish to take, further I don't have that kind of expertise. 

Also related to the issue is about the credentials of a qualified instructor. It seems to me that a instructor would be deemed more qualified or worthy if he/she has a few medals under their name. This would mean training more professionally for competitions, but I don't know if I have that kind of ability. Unlike most career martial artists, I started taking MA pretty late in my age, so there are clearly limits as to what I can explore. 

Then again, I should say that, I don't have qualms teaching martial arts on a non-profit basis. As I don't think it will be possible for me to learn multiple martial arts, and I am quite satisfied to refine and be proficient in my base martial arts, I don't see myself as competent enough to establish a spot within the martial arts world. My passion is more to share and teach, than earn an income.

So really, is it still feasible for someone, like me, to consider a career in martial arts?


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## jks9199 (Mar 11, 2007)

K' Evans said:


> Some of you know that I just started taking up MA, so this question may seem too far-fetched now. But I have been doing some soul-searching and am interested in pursuing martial arts as a career option. I know that I have no regrets if I were to take this route.
> 
> But from what little I have seen so far, it seems very hard to make a living in the martial arts world. My Sifu, who has a very admirable reputation (to me), openly talks about how hard it is to making a living in this line. Also, from reading the pages of martial arts mags, it seems quite a number of martial artists are in the security and law enforcement industry or perhaps in the military training elite soldiers. I can't say this is the career path I wish to take, further I don't have that kind of expertise.
> 
> ...


I'd suggest that you consider a "real" career, with any martial arts career being something you do on the side, at least at the start.  That way, you can pay your bills, meet your obligations, and generally support yourself until the day comes that your martial arts business will do so.

I'd also suggest that you get the appropriate business training, so that you can effectively run a school.  Some people manage to do so with no real preparation, and others more or less buy a franchise from someone (or in some other way get the business as a package)...  but I feel pretty safe in saying that most schools try to get by without having the proper business tools, and as a result, lots go under quickly -- and others end up in situations that hurt the business and the martial arts instruction (like bad leases, improper insurance coverage, branching into areas that require licenses that they lack -- think daycare disguised as a "before & after school program, and lots of other things).

And -- if one day, your "hobby" or "side business" takes off, and you can make a living at it, fantastic!


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 11, 2007)

K' Evans said:


> Also related to the issue is about the credentials of a qualified instructor. It seems to me that a instructor would be deemed more qualified or worthy if he/she has a few medals under their name. This would mean training more professionally for competitions, but I don't know if I have that kind of ability. Unlike most career martial artists, I started taking MA pretty late in my age, so there are clearly limits as to what I can explore.


 
I will only address this part of your question.  In my area, there are 53 martial arts school (yes, that is a lot) and the most successfull of those are not tournament champions and have no medals like you are talking about.  The best in my area are the ones that have studied for a long time and really know what they are teaching.

Also, there are a few in my area that are okay at what they are teaching, but are excellent marketers and know how to sell their school to the public.

Overall, I would say to have a successfull school, either really know your style and teach well, or be very good at marketing (preferably a mix of both).  Being a tournament champion is not a requirement.

AoG


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## still learning (Mar 12, 2007)

Hello,  If it is your dream to be a martial art Teacher and have your very own school or schools.  This is very possible.

There are many small and unkown school thru out the USA.  Many have succeeded in only running the schools for a living. (most of teachers have other jobs too).

In our system there are several Instructors who makes over $100,000 dollars a year,(they have health,weight centers,as well as teaching Kempo, One has turn part of it into a body guard business.)

Most of the other Instructors in our systems have other jobs. (Kempo is a part-time business).

There will always be people who will say NO, you cannot do it,or give you many reasons why it is not possible.   The Winners are those who did not listen to them, and did believe in themselves!

Are you ready and willing to make those choices to do what it takes?   Most of the successfully business in the world (came from many failures) each time they learn another lesson...BUT kept dreaming of the goals....

DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU IT CANNOT BE DONE?.....DREAM BIG

............Count the winners (only a few)...count the losers (there are many).....Live your dreams.


PS: Want to get there?   GO to:
Dale carniage seminars
Join the Toast Masters
Join the Jaycees
Read everything about Success and sucessful people.

Learn Judo first...than expand your knowledge in other arts!

Universal Kempo karate Schools (once you earn your Black belt and want to run your own school...the Professor will help you set it up! (franchise).

Words to live by:   practice this and  (DO IT NOW)


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 12, 2007)

martial arts as a full-time career is very demanding and, yes, it can be hard to make a living at it.

that said, you can make good money if you do it right.

here's the mistake to avoid:  many solid martial artists open a dojo with no training whatsoever in business.  this is why so many struggle.

as you approach your black belt, here are some things to consider doing:

get a job managing a service industry shop:  a hollywood video, mcdonald's or pizza joing.  this will teach you a lot about managing staff and the financial details of doing business.  the larger the chain the better:  this will teach you the importance of strong business systems.

spend 6 months working at a call center.  there's nothing like fielding 100 calls a day to give you top of the line phone skills.

find a mentor.  start talking with a small business owner, success coach or other expert and pick his brain mercilessly.

read the following:  the Emyth, small business for dummies, getting things done, the 2 minute manager.

if you have the time and money, a business degree would not steer you wrong.

if you spend this time getting training in *both* aspects of running a martial arts business (the martial arts part and the business part) there's no limit to what you can do.

rob kiyosaki put it this way.  you can make good money working hard as an informed person in an industry populated with informed people (like a lawyer, doctor or computer programmer).  you can make huge money working hard as an informed person in an industry populated with uninformed people.  sadly, the latter is true of our industry.

good luck.  feel free to pm me if you'd like to continue this conversation in detail.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 12, 2007)

still learning said:


> DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU IT CANNOT BE DONE?.....DREAM BIG


 
still learning gave you very good advice.

I have often wondered what it would be like if I had done things differently when I was younger and pursued MA teaching, I let some tell me there was no money in it and believed them so I went a different route. 

I did teach for a little while several years ago but shut it all down to go train with another Sifu. But it never was my only source of income. I do plan on teaching again in a few years but then again it will not be my only source of income.

However I have heard the same thing many times from many people that do teach MA full time that I am reading here; Learn about business first. I know it would make it a lot easier if I had a business degree right now as it concerns the running of my wife's office so I imagine it would help with an MA school as well.

As to the medals, they can help but from my experience not really necessary.


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 12, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> as you approach your black belt, here are some things to consider doing:
> 
> get a job managing a service industry shop: a hollywood video, mcdonald's or pizza joing. this will teach you a lot about managing staff and the financial details of doing business. the larger the chain the better: this will teach you the importance of strong business systems.
> 
> ...


 
There is some very good advice there, but I think the smaller the chain, the better.  If you work at a place like Blockbuster or Wal-mart, you are just a small cog in the machine who will never get a chance to make decisions or even see the decisions being made.

The smaller the business, the more you willl be involved in advertising and making everything work in general.

AoG


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## K' Evans (Mar 12, 2007)

Appreciate the good advice. I do see that everyone is encouraging me to study more abt business and to obtain some experience in the business field. I don't really have any issues with this, except that I am a incompetent financial fool. Running the accounts is not going to be easy for me, but I suppose it is something most people can pick up. I can, however, appreciate the nature of running a school and to teach and share knowledge. 

But before getting into the actual setting up of a school, I am curious abt what kind of qualities should someone have to certify him/herself as an instructor? For instance, should the person have been a black belt for 3 years? 5 years? Should the person have at least done some assistant instructoring as well? Should the person's Sifu provide instructor-like courses and training for the person as well? It is at least heartening to know medals are not a crucial requirement. See, I am more worried if I should take myself seriously enough that I have the proper credentials to teach. 

I am pretty happy with having a small school, incidentally. And it does seem certain that I have to have a normal job in the day, while teaching martial arts as an evening job.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 12, 2007)

ArmorOfGod said:


> There is some very good advice there, but I think the smaller the chain, the better.  If you work at a place like Blockbuster or Wal-mart, you are just a small cog in the machine who will never get a chance to make decisions or even see the decisions being made.
> 
> The smaller the business, the more you willl be involved in advertising and making everything work in general.
> 
> AoG



that's true of large shops in large chains:  you can't just walk in and be manager of a wal-mart.  but being the manager of a small shop in a large chain (like Blockbuster or McDonalds's) is amazing prep.  as manager you are the person in charge of day to day management decisions:  budgeting, local marketing, scheduling, staffing, hiring.....

this is also true of being in charge of a small shop in a small business.  however, as a general rule the smaller the chain the poorer the business system.  large chains have the resources to create brilliant, extensive business systems and the muscle to make you follow them to the letter.

i'm fairly successful as a dojo owner.  i owe much of that success to an understanding and respect for business systems.  no better place in the world to learn that than running a small store in a great big chain.

but as armor said, going to work in a large shop in a large chain is a waste of your time.


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 12, 2007)

Check out these links:
http://www.martialartsteachers.com/ - That is the Martial Arts Teachers Association ($24 per month to be a member)

and

http://www.napma.com/ - That is the National Association of Professional Martial Artists

Those two organizations will help you build your school into a commercial success.  They offer curriculum ideas, fliers, tips, premade commercials, and more.  Joining one of those is a good idea if you are considering martial arts as a career.

Also, you could join a chain, like Premier Martial Arts: http://www.pmaschools.com/  They are very expensive to be a part of, but they say they will make your school a huge success, so maybe it pays off.

AoG


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2007)

K' Evans said:


> Should the person's Sifu provide instructor-like courses and training for the person as well?


 
My cma experience is basically you help your sifu and when he thinks your ready he says go teach.


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## still learning (Mar 13, 2007)

Hello, Great replies and help-ful hints here!!!

Yes: There is two sides of the martial arts schools...One is being an excellant communicator/ Teacher.  

The other is learning to be excellant BUSINESS PERSON.  Management skills,accounting skills, know about TAXES.

Someone mention Kiosaki name: this is about learning to invest your money (make the money work for you)...good reading (Rich Dad,Poor Dad and the Cash Flow Quadrant.

Join the toastmasters...this will have you learn to be an excellant communicator. (a great speaker).

Dale Carnige classes will teach you to grow as a person (several different skills-or classes).

Anyone can say alot of things of what they want to do? ? ? ? ?  ...Only a few will follow thru.......................START : To DO IT NOW...working a plan and setting your goals..................Aloha

PS: There is a reason why you should write in down and view it daily and make the changes when necessary. (It helps you picture and plot you goals)

example: I would like be a Teacher with my own school by 2010.  It will have 10,000 square feet in size. (dream here on the equitment).

Etc......


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## searcher (Mar 13, 2007)

If you are seriously considering this as a career option, I think you should consider putting in the time to become personal trainer.   This would allow you to gain some extra cash and possibly earn some benefits along the way.   I do this and it is one of the few things that allows me to do this.  The onlyother oprion I see is that yu can run a McDojo and make good money, but I advise against this course of action.  Don't let anyone run you down,if you do things right you will make it.


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 13, 2007)

searcher said:


> If you are seriously considering this as a career option, I think you should consider putting in the time to become personal trainer. This would allow you to gain some extra cash and possibly earn some benefits along the way. I do this and it is one of the few things that allows me to do this. The onlyother oprion I see is that yu can run a McDojo and make good money, but I advise against this course of action. Don't let anyone run you down,if you do things right you will make it.


 
I agree with the personal trainer idea.  That would also give you some connections and contacts when you go to find a building.

As for the McDojo comment, one can charge a lot and not be a McDojo.  As long as you are not giving belts away and are making your students learn a good curriculum, you are not a McDojo.  Being a McDojo has to do with the way a place is run, not really how much you are charging.

AoG


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## scottcatchot (Mar 13, 2007)

You have already been given lots of good advice. I would like to stress the importance of learning good teaching skills. It has already been mentioned that communication skills is important, along with that I would like tom add that teaching itself is a skill that needs to be learned. I have known lots of people who were experts in what they knew , but could not teach worth a damn... Some of my college profs. for example..:uhyeah:  I am a certified school teacher and while working toget that I leraned alot about how everybody has there own learning style, etc. This is not to say you need to become a certified teacher.. but there are good books out there on teaching strategies and learning styles that would be a good idea to brush up on prior to teaching so that you can not only be a great martial artist, but can pass on those skills by knowing something about how to teach.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Mar 13, 2007)

Your discipline, JKD, is one of the best martial arts, it takes from a lot of the martial arts and incorporates it into one. 

That was Bruce Lee's goal.


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## K' Evans (Mar 14, 2007)

Thanks for all those inputs, esp those links too, AOG. The irony now is that I am using a personal trainer for my own fitness goals, but I certainly should consider it as a future side-line job. 

In terms of teaching, I do have a passion and I understand that there is more to it than that. There's a possibility that I may end up in the teaching sector in the future, so that will provide me with some experiences and knowledge to relate to if I should ever grow up to be a JKD instructor. 

I do think that overall, its my Sifu who is in charge of this endeavor. He has to personally see to it that I am capable of giving classes and teaching well. I have read that some teachers don't think you are fit to be an instructor until you have 5 or 6 years into the art, which makes it a really long committment. But then again, if this is really what I want, I would have pursued it until that far. Also, I guess it would be silly of me to think that I am capable of providing instructorship at such a young age.


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## PictonMA (Mar 14, 2007)

I teach martial arts without any outside employment (however my wife works and has a good job so we are sure to meet our personal financial obligations).

There has been some really good advice here and I will toss in a couple more things.

1. You mention that running the accounts will be a challenge for you, my advice then is to talk to a local accountant / bookkeeper.

Then get a small business software package that they recomend (QuickBooks, Mind Your Own Business, etc etc) and sit down with them to set it up in the way they would to make this aspect of your business as easy on you as possible.

Martial Artists (and instructors in particular) in my opinion think they have to be good at everything and do everything themselves - if you aren't good at something then DELEGATE or hire someone else to do it (for me I'm not very good at graphic design / advertising type things so I hire that out).

2. Diversify your income within your school - the best thing you can do is not put all your eggs in one basket and have cashflow coming from a variety of sources.  Some options (obviously not exhaustive): regular martial arts memberships, private lessons, after-school programs, satellite-program in a rec centre etc, day camps (march-break, P/A days, summer camps), birthday parties, special clinics, training sessions, women / girls self-defense programs, personal training, merchandise, gradings, etc

My view on this is to be upgfront, honest and fair in your pricing, don't have mandatory items with hidden costs but rather offer a base price for your programs and make it clear what are extras and what are included - people will respect you for this and won't feel ripped off.

3. KEEP records - I keep track of EVERYTHING, I log every call, I record every email, I record every walk-in, cold-contact on the street etc etc - if anyone ever contacts my dojo in every way I record a) who they are (name number address), how they heard about us, I offer them free trial class, I record if they visit the dojo, try a class and if they eventually join.

I also keep track month by month how many members I have from last month, how many new people i have gained, how many people have left / quit etc - this allows you to identify which areas you are strong in and which areas are weak so you can address these areas.

4. Learn, learn, learn - NEVER STOP BEING A STUDENT.  Learn about your art, learn about other arts, read motivational and self help books, go to seminars, learn public speaking, learn call-centre / phone skills, join the local chamber of commercs / business improvement associate, small business owners group etc etc etc.

5. Start small and don't over extend yourself BUT don't be affraid to take measured, calculated risks (that are affordable if they fail) - you willneed to spend money to make money but don't spend more than you can afford / finance.

There is plenty more but that's my 2cents for now.

Jason G. Bilodeau


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## foggymorning162 (Mar 14, 2007)

Just something to consider but when you are ready to start your own school you might want to start small, a great way to do that is with a park and rec. program or through the YMCA. You can hone your teaching and bussiness skills while keeping overhead to a minimum. I'm not sure about the Y but most P & R programs will cover your insurance for you, you don't pay rent or a morgage, no utilities just a fee to the town most of your money is profit. The big draw back is your equipment has to be hauled to class every week.


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## scottcatchot (Mar 15, 2007)

PictonMA said:


> - if you aren't good at something then DELEGATE or hire someone else to do it
> Jason G. Bilodeau


 
Very good advice. It reminds me of one of my favorite bumper stickers I have seen that says "When in doubt, delegate." That falls second to a fortune cookie a friend of mine got one time that actually said " It takes two to tango so stop dancing with yourself."


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 15, 2007)

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42320

No one should close this thead, but everyone should hop back and read that thread that I just linked to.  It has an EXCELLENT article about running a ma business.

AoG


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## K' Evans (Mar 15, 2007)

Very good responses and advice from everyone, I appreciate it a lot. I haven't thought of starting up a business per say, and I already have a lot of obstacles to cross before setting up one, namely being more proficient in my art, training in other arts, and perhaps finding other partners who may be specialized in other martial arts to go into a joint venture. Somehow, I think that is the most reasonable approach, given that I doubt I will be a master in 7 different martial arts or anything like that. Certainly, starting small and perhaps keeping it to a small school is more sensible than taking on bigger risks.

That article AOG posted is good. There's one example in it that I think relates to me a lot. I don't see myself as that business-oriented, and in a way, I may prefer if someone handles the nitty gritty of dealing with payments. I would much prefer to remain in the neutral position of teaching and also learning from other students and masters as well.


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## jks9199 (Mar 16, 2007)

K' Evans said:


> I do think that overall, its my Sifu who is in charge of this endeavor. He has to personally see to it that I am capable of giving classes and teaching well. I have read that some teachers don't think you are fit to be an instructor until you have 5 or 6 years into the art, which makes it a really long committment. But then again, if this is really what I want, I would have pursued it until that far. Also, I guess it would be silly of me to think that I am capable of providing instructorship at such a young age.



With 5 or 6 years in some systems -- you're considered barely far enough along to lead warm up exercises while waiting for the instructor.  In others -- you may have been an instructor for 4 years or more.  Many are a compromise. 

However... becoming a teacher IS a very long term commitment.  You have the responsiblity of being there for each student, until they reach a sufficient state of development in their own training that they can continue without you, or be passed along to another instructor.  To me, that means until they reach black belt (5 to 7 years on average, for an adult).  Of course, if a student stops training, your responsibility has also stopped -- but you can't rely on that.  And that means that if you close out a class/club... you have to be able to tell the students where else they can go.


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## gblnking (Mar 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'd suggest that you consider a "real" career, with any martial arts career being something you do on the side, at least at the start. That way, you can pay your bills, meet your obligations, and generally support yourself until the day comes that your martial arts business will do so.
> 
> I'd also suggest that you get the appropriate business training, so that you can effectively run a school. Some people manage to do so with no real preparation, and others more or less buy a franchise from someone (or in some other way get the business as a package)... but I feel pretty safe in saying that most schools try to get by without having the proper business tools, and as a result, lots go under quickly -- and others end up in situations that hurt the business and the martial arts instruction (like bad leases, improper insurance coverage, branching into areas that require licenses that they lack -- think daycare disguised as a "before & after school program, and lots of other things).
> 
> And -- if one day, your "hobby" or "side business" takes off, and you can make a living at it, fantastic!


 
I couldn't agree more. I trained with a guy who studied for years, became a BB, graduated the franchise teacher's course and promptly took out an enormous morgage and opened up a school under the franchise name. He struggled with this school for a long time. But he stuck with it. A few years later the IRS came in and seized all of the franchise's in my state.(and I beleive in a few other states as well) left him with nothing. His problem setting aside the crooks that ran the franchises from the top was that he had no real business knowledge. Get a business degree and put aside the romance of it. Pay your due diligence and aproach it from a smart business owners perspective.


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