# "rogue" diets...



## Indagator (Oct 19, 2010)

Has anybody tried any of the various diets or programs which mainstream medicine labels as "rogue" or unorthodox?

I'm talking about. for example, bio-oxidative/alkalising diets, the "Warrior" diet, Paleo diets, or even a basic diet based on the facts presented in the documentary "Fathead".

Anthony Bova's Spartan Health Regime(n) looks like it all makes sense, definitely worth the money (although there are free copies around of older versions of his program).

I'm interested in hearing a bit about what people have tried, what it entails, and what the results are/were - good or bad.

Even the really bad  lol.


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## punisher73 (Oct 20, 2010)

Atkins Diet:  Since it is probably the most popular and controversial of the diets.  Originally, designed by the Mayo Clinic for their patients to lose weight very quickly for surgery.  It was never designed to be used as a long term lifestyle.

Most other diets are derivatives of this diet, such as, South Beach Diet utilizing high protein and low carb.  South Beach differs in that it encourages carbs in the form of fruits and vegetables, just try to eliminate the grains.

Paleo Diet:  Further revision of history and the South Beach diet (not sure which came first, SB was marketing more sucessfully first though to the mass public).  Claims that eating only what our ancestors ate we will achieve low body fats and great health.  Problem?  Our ancestors didn't live that long because of poor nutrition.  Again, the main thrust is to eat mostly fruits/vegetables and meats.

Warrior Diet:  Claims that our anscestors marched and fought all day so they didn't eat all day until at night.  The thrust of the diet is that you fast all day and then eat ALL of your calories for the day in one setting.  You definately lose weight because you aren't eating enough.


Zone Diet: Based on having the proper ration of protein/fat/carbs to induce your body to lose weight.

I have read about most of the diets out there, all of them will find SOMETHING to sell their product and get your money.  In all honesty, IMO the most effective "market diet" out there is Weight Watchers.  No gimmicks, just a way to watch portion size and get just a little bit less calories than you need to lose weight.

That is the key, eat healthy and how much you eat.  The fresher you can go the better.  Lots of fruits and vegetables and lean meats.  Don't worry about their ratios etc.  Just watch your portion sizes, which if you are eating healthy you are able to eat more because they have less calories than high fat/starch foods.  Everything else out there is just a gimmick, but no one is going to make money off of telling you to eat clean, they have to market in a way and put a spin on it.


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## Indagator (Oct 22, 2010)

Thanks for the info there, Punisher73, although I must clarify that this isn't quite what I was looking for.
I'm up to speed on the apologetic and fundamentals of each of these systems, what I was really after was first-hand accounts of people's experience with them.
There are reasons for this.

Out of interest, though, what is your take on the Spartan Health Regime? Most of it seems pretty much common sense to me...

Out of all of them, the one I am most interested in learning about first-hand accounts re. the effects upon the human body, would be the bio-oxidative/alkalising diets.


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## harlan (Oct 22, 2010)

Lost 75 lbs on the low-carb, appropriate protein 'diet' based on the book by Drs. Eades. 

Summation: lost 65 lbs in 7 months. Took a break for 4 years, and every holiday 5 lbs crept back on (I bake a LOT for the holidays). With new health problems last year, I started looking seriously for ways to make permanent healthful changes and revisited the low-carb idea but this time in a moderate way. Have taken off the 20, and now another 10, at about the rate of 5lbs/month.

Side effects the first time around (during drastic weight loss): dizziness, loss of energy, cramps from salt depletion. However, the immediate benefits were no more back pain, and no more sleep apnea (from being overweight). Also, there was a wonderful sense of 'hypersensitivy', of 'body sense', an over-all well-being.

I didn't think to have my blood checked prior to the diet, but after the first 6 months had it checked...and it aced every category. They did blood work up twice...because they couldn't believe it the first time around.


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## Indagator (Oct 22, 2010)

Yes, I too have had pretty amazing weight losses through low-carb. Back in my Muay Thai days I actually went zero-carb (as well as various other things on top of that) about two weeks out from a fight, in order to make the weight.
Worst two weeks of my life, though. Zero carb is hard as hell, definitely not feasible for long-term use lol.

TBH I don't actually think that what they call zero-carb would be strictly zero-carb, there would prob be a wee bit in there.

Basically I just ate lean chicken breast for two weeks.

Lost almost 10 kg in two weeks. Weighed in, pounded a couple of energy drinks and a bit of real food, then got in there and somehow managed a knockout victory.

Of course, after that I suppose all the whiskey I drank would've put a few pounds back on lol.

Whoops. I'm rambling, lol.

Anyway, thanks, Harlan, that's pretty much what I'm after. Have you seen the documentary "Fathead" by chance? I believe it's worth a look, for a number of reasons. Several points you made in your post remind me of it, lol.


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## harlan (Oct 22, 2010)

Been meaning to rent it. 

Have to admit...I didn't strictly follow the 'diet' in the book by Drs. Eades ("Protein Power"). The first time was more of a 'crash diet', in that I modified it for 'zero carb'. Now, I live a 'low-carb lifestyle', and try to make better choices (ex: 'carrots or potatos'). Another MA talk member is very keen on this, and related subjects, and blogs about it. I'll PM you.

Another really nice, and unexpected advantage to low-carb: I don't seem to suffer from hot-flashes. It isn't mentioned anywhere, but as a female I started having hot flashes at 48. I noted in particular that they came on strong about an hour or so after carbo-loading. Went back to low, low carb...and they dissappeared. All the women around me at work my age are suffering, and I don't have them at all. Keep that blood sugar low and level.


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## Carol (Oct 22, 2010)

I tried a reduced calorie, low-carb low-fat diet a couple of years ago, medically supervised.  The clinic gave me B12 injections 2x/week, MIC injections 1x/week.

Reduced calories being 750 per day.  That didn't work for me.  My brain was just not processing like it normally does.  If I had a brain-dead job, perhaps I could ride it out.   But an engineering job where I have to spend 25 percent of my time communicating in a language other than English, I wasn't doing so well.  I ramped my caloric intake up and focused on eating as much as I could, that helped a bit.   After about a week, I went in to ketosis and started losing weight, nearly all of it fat, so said the Tanita monitor scale.

I stayed on the diet about 3 months.   I lost some weight, but I was getting a bit frustrated by the limitations of a ketogenic diet.  My company had achieved a major milestone during that period...a milestone huge enough for the executive team to bring in champagne and make mimosas for everyone in celebration.  (This is substantial, because we have a fierce ban on alcohol within the building).  Yup, that one mimosa was enough to knock me out of ketosis for 4 days, which meant starting over blah blah blah.

After about 3 months, I ran out of the resources I had that were paying for my visits to the clinic.   As the injections wore off, so did my ability to tolerate the diet.  I started getting bizarre food cravings...like cravings for a big bowl of Lucky Charms.   I never ate cereal before I went on the diet...let alone sweet cereal.   I was also getting very bored with the food.  So, I basically just failed off.  Gained back some of the weight, but not all of it.  So....that's my story there.

Thing I struggle with the most is environmental.  When I get off work, the only establishments that are open are 7-11s and a 24 hour McDonalds.  I still haven't mastered the art of keeping a well-stocked kitchen at home, even after 5 years as a shift worker.


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2010)

The Pizza Diet

The Cookie Diet

Cereal Diet

Cerlery Diet

Abs Diet

Breatharian Diet!

The rationale for 95-99% of all "diets"-especially the "rogue" ones- is pretty stupid, as near as I can tell.

"Diets" are dumb. Of course, this comes from a fellow who eats puppy every chance he gets....:lol:


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## girlbug2 (Oct 22, 2010)

I have been on paleo for roughly 2 years. Of course I fall off quite frequently when tempted with seasonal delights, particularly pumpkin pie or anything chocolate .

While on the wagon, I have never felt better in my life. Before going paleo, I had various aches in my legs and hips, also lots of acne and oily skin. These problems had plagued me for several years. Within 2 weeks of the diet my skin cleared up and the aches and pains left, never to return. I have a good general sense of wellbeing and energy.

Another weird thing is that my oral hygeine has greatly improved--I only have to brush my teeth before bed, once a day, because the plaque just isn't there anymore. That film that used to be always on the top of my tongue is also gone. My dentist is impressed-he thinks I floss a lot, but truthfully I am lazy and only floss once or twice a week.

The drawback of this diet is largely cultural. People are always trying to get me to eat this and that processed food when I lunch with them or it's a special occasion. My mom thinks it isn't a healthy diet and is worried that I don't eat grains --"it's not a balanced diet" she says. I contend that humans were not designed to eat grains; paleo is the *original* balanced diet, if you are careful not to overdo the fruits.


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> I have been on paleo for roughly 2 years. Of course I fall off quite frequently when tempted with seasonal delights, particularly pumpkin pie or anything chocolate .
> 
> . I contend that humans were not designed to eat grains; paleo is the *original* balanced diet, if you are careful not to overdo the fruits.


 
One question here:

How much do you _*run*_?


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## fyn5000 (Oct 23, 2010)

I read that a proper amount of carbohydrates per meal should be around 60 to 75 grams.  A lot of diets that people eat usually contain much more carbs per meal.  Without burning off those extra carbs, a person will gain weight (sometimes alot of weight).

I changed my diet to eat only 60 carbs per meal.  I didn't change what I ate except leaving out the occasional doughnut or pastry.  I lost 75 pounds over a year.  I never felt hungry at all.

Fyn


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## Indagator (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks everyone, this thread is now beginning to shape into what I had hoped.

Fyn5000, how long have you been doing this? And aside from the weight loss have you noticed any other results or side-affects (positive or negative) from this diet?

Girlbug2, over what sort of time period did you notice the dental health improvement? I have read a few books and such, similar to paleo, which refer to the excellent oral hygiene of certain primitive tribes and I believe that their diet may have a lot to do with that.

Elder999, thanks for the input and highlighting some of the more ridiculous diets out there, as well as stimulating (hopefully) some insightful discussion with the question you have asked.


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## Senjojutsu (Oct 24, 2010)

Wasn't America's favorite fat cat, GARFIELD, attributed with this quote?: "*DIET* is just* DIE* with a *T* at the end."

I once read a book (looking for it for proper reference) from a Cardiologist who had developed diabetes as he entered his middle age, and took it almost like an insult and it spurned him to delve into human nutrition and the impact of modern life styles within the past 100 years.

Basically he was somewhat of a paleo diet type advocate - that it is sugar and processed foods since WWII - and as hunter-gatherers we need to walk for distance at least 20 minutes almost every day (automobiles don't just kill us in crashes). 

He had an interesting writing style, to whit from the best of my memory:


Humans can suffer from a caloric deficiency (it's called starvation)
Humans can suffer from protein deficiencies
Humans can suffer from vitamin/minerals deficiencies.
But the Doctor wrote he has never found a documented medical case of humans suffering from a STARCH deficiency - as in the staple crops from the cradles of human civilizations -_ e.g.,_ wheat, corn or rice. 
Not to mention those evil potatoes LOL.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 24, 2010)

I found the best diet ever.  It's called 'Diabetes' and I lost 50 pounds at 2 pounds per day.  Nearly killed me.  Don't recommend it.

My suggestion is the diet nobody likes because you can't write a book about it, you can't sell special food to people who want to do it, you can't go on a talk show or make videos about it, and it isn't fun, instant, or trendy.

Eat less, exercise more.  You will lose weight.


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 24, 2010)

Yes. But otoh, you can do what I do: eat as much as you want, including lots of meat, baked in whole butter, cheese, eggs, etc. Just don't eat any (or as few as possible) starches. My bloodwork is just fine.

My weight kept going down slowly until I am now at a lean 163 pounds, and it's been like that for a while now. Additionally, by avoiding carbs during the working week, I simply don't get hungry and I don't have energy dips after lunch.

It would probably also improve the condition of people with diabetes. Starches are not what our body was made for. Interestingly: high carb food is responsible for many of our modern welfare diseases including diabetes. If you want to know more about it, read Taub's 'Good Calories, Bad calories'. It's a real eye opener.


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## elder999 (Oct 24, 2010)

Senjojutsu said:


> *and as hunter-gatherers we need to walk for distance at least 20 minutes almost every day (automobiles don't just kill us in crashes). *.


 

This is key-though severely understated-and part of what makes the "paleo diet" simply *not* _paleo_ at all-not saying that it's a "bad diet"-it's not-in fact, it's a great deal like mine. It's just that the rationale behind it is misplaced and incomplete.

This is how paleothic man hunted _before_ the invention of the spear (earliest example, 400,000 years old, though likely much older) before the invention of the atlatl (pretty solidly late Paleothic) and before the invention of the bow and arrow, very late Paleothic at best. In fact, it's likely that hunts after the invention of the spear also followed such a tactic, though there is some evidence for other tactics like trapping and forcing animals off of cliffs, that also would have required persistence. 

Persitence hunting's mechanism is somewhat understated in that article, in that it does not require the high temperatures of the Kalahari. Most mammals cool their bodies by panting-not, as man does, sweating-this limits their ability to run distances. They can run faster than men in spurts, but not over long distances-they *have* to stop, whereas a man can jog all day, and run for the better part of it. Imagine not being trained to run a marathon, but standing at the starting line in front of me-and I have a knife. While the motivation to get away from me might be strong enough for you to run quite a ways past your comfort zone-and maybe even comfortably outpacing me-eventually you're going to have to lie down,  or turn and fight. This is what it is for deer, antelope, elk, moose, bison, elephants, giraffes,  and most of the other mammals we hunt-all that's required is the will to run them down and the ability to track them. Some friends and I actually ran down a deer back in the late 70's, simply to see if we could-I don't recommend this, as it was the worst venison I've ever had to eat.. 

Such hunting would require a higher ratio of carbs than the "paleo diet" of today: carbs being easier to run on immediately, and the form of energy required for the long runs that were also required to obtain much needed (by this point) meat.

The_ consumption_ of meat in those times also would have followed a different pattern than that described by the diet, which is supported by our culture's technology and ready availabilty of meat products-if your "hunt" consists of "a walk of at least 20 minutes" to the_ grocery store_, then you haven't really done the work required for that particular reward, have you? Additionally, a "paleo lifestyle" would be seasonal, with higher requirements for such protein and fat in winter, or the Ice Age.
We can see evidence in accounts of North American tribal people, and hunter gatherer bands of Africa:generally, when these people got meat in the form of a large mammal, it was divvied up among the entire band, and they FEAST, as in gorge themselves-though the remainder could be preserved by drying or smoking. We can also see evidence (and support for the "paleo diet") in the Inuit people of the Arctic, whose diet is largely meat, and who are often what we'd perceive as "overweight" but who remain somewhat consistently healthy in terms of blood work and cardiovascular health-in part, likely, because their cold environment requires a larger quantity of fat and protein in the diet, in part because a great deal of the meat that they do consume is higher in Omega-3 fatty acids.

Short answer: if you can't confidently state that you're capable of running for 6 hours, or jogging _all day_, if necessary, then it isn't "paleo." If you can do that, then it has to be because _you run *daily*_, and have run that much on a fairly regular basis-and if you can do that, then you've got to be getting closer to 60% of your _daily_ calories from carbs (yes, *good* carbs  ) than the "paleo diet" people prescribe.


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## J Ellis (Oct 24, 2010)

For a sustainable eating style that is compatible what whatever nutritional plan you may prefer, I recommend the No S Diet.


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## Carol (Oct 26, 2010)

J Ellis said:


> For a sustainable eating style that is compatible what whatever nutritional plan you may prefer, I recommend the No S Diet.



While I really can't stand the author's tone, I think his idea of the 'shovelglove' is absolutely brilliant.   I'm going to pick up a sledgehammer and try doing the same.  Kinda like a poor woman's kettlebell


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## J Ellis (Oct 26, 2010)

Reinhard is a very nice guy and responsive to questions and feedback about his various systems. Shovelglove is a lot of fun and effective as well.

If you are interested in low cost kettlebelling, you should invest in a Kettlestack. I love mine. Truthfully, I can do all of the exercises I enjoy with a kettlebell with a standard dumbbell also, but there are several I much prefer with the Kettlestack.


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## fyn5000 (Oct 28, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Indagator*:
> Fyn5000, how long have you been doing this? And aside from the weight loss have you noticed any other results or side-affects (positive or negative) from this diet?


It's been about a year.  No side effects except having to purchase new clothes.  I haven't felt this good since I was in my thirties.  I have more energy, I move faster, feel more motivated, and feel better about myself.

Fyn


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## girlbug2 (Oct 28, 2010)

Indigator, my oral health improved within a few weeks. I wasn't really thinking about it much until, about a week in, I noticed that there wasn't any plaque on my teeth to speak of.

Elder999, I do MMA five days a week (well, krav maga, which is about as mixed a martial art as it gets).  That equals about five hours a week of variable level cardio, which appears to keep me in good health. I used to run, but it's hard on the shins and knees. Elliptical machine is a good stand in for Krav when I can't make it to training.

But I have a question for you. Forgive me for not reading your link about hunting as of yet. Wasn't the vast majority of the hunting done by the males in the paleo societies? That is, the division of labor was typically men hunt, women gathered. So if 6 hours or whatever of running was required to keep the hunters healthy, then it follows that the females would have been unhealthy. I have seen no evidence of that, that there was a disparity between the health of the hunters and the gatherers, who surely didn't need to run 6 hours to gather roots and greens. Rather the daily work of women was slow and sustained, surely burning many calories but not particularly cardio (from my memory of college anthropology 101).

So, I could argue that I'm following the gatherer model of the paleo diet, and it is equally valid as the hunter model.


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## elder999 (Oct 29, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> Wasn't the vast majority of the hunting done by the males in the paleo societies? That is, the division of labor was typically men hunt, women gathered. .


 
Again, the best examples we have our recent tribal societies-short answer would be _somewhat_.Based on that, it's safe to say that women participated in hunts, but women also get pregnant-hard to say what "the vast majority" would be, easier to say the majority. You make a fair case, but only half of one: if women were confined to "gathering" it's fairly safe to say that closer to 60% of their diet would come from the carbs they gathered-which also might have included primitive wild grains, btw-like those that were eventually cultivated as wheat and maize. 

Bottom line-it's about workload-this is the reason why the Masai could live on a diet of greens, and milk mixed with blood, and yet have excellent bloodwork: because their athleticism approaches Olympic quality. It's why the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico can live on a diet that mostly consists of corn, and no trace of "the diseases of modern life": because they run Copper Canyon 50 miles at a time. It's why the Inuit that live traditionally have no heart disease or strokes, and otherwise excellent bloodwork, in spite of often appearing to be what a Western doctor would call "obese", while living on a diet that is almost entirely flesh and fat.

And 5 hrs. a week of MMA doesn't qualify, but it's okay-I din't say the "paleo diet" wasn't a good diet-it simply isn't "paleo." ( "Running" isn't hard on the shins and nees: running _shoes_ are.)


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## Indagator (Oct 29, 2010)

FWIW, the diet I have been leaning towards (Bova's Spartan Health Regimen) includes a balance between hunter/gatherer based dietary intake and smaller amounts of agricultural-society dietary intakes. The health benefits seem to be quite good.

And also interesting given the comments on running, the same book also states ways of utilising the impact on the body from running as a way of building up joint strength and so forth. The crazy thing is, it seems to work (if followed correctly).

So nobody has tried bio-oxidative diets or alkalising diets? Figures, lol, they both seem pretty dodgy to me. The worst one I think is where people are ingesting H202 (diluted of course) as a snake-oil style cure-all.

So, Elder999, just to clarify; is your position that the high levels of fitness/ cardio activity is where the health benefits are derived from, as opposed to dietary intake? Or are you saying it's more of a combination?

Call me dense, lol, but I wasn't quite clear on that point.

Thanks guys.


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## elder999 (Nov 2, 2010)

Indagator said:


> So, Elder999, just to clarify; is your position that the high levels of fitness/ cardio activity is where the health benefits are derived from, as opposed to dietary intake? Or are you saying it's more of a combination?
> 
> Call me dense, lol, but I wasn't quite clear on that point.
> 
> Thanks guys.


 
IT's a bit of both, as well as environmental-the Inuit are healthy "fat people" because of their cold environment. I don't think "diet" is as much of a factor as food quality and caloric intake, as well as a healthy level of activity. Jack Lalanne is almost entirely vegetarian. Joseph Greenstein was entirely vegetarian. Some MMA athletes are vegans. I've offered other examples: the Masai, the Inuit, the Tarahumara. 

Some factors are also genetic and evolutionary, of course. The "paleo diet" says that paleothic man didn't eat dairy, and so we mustn't-it neglects the near constant search for food that was early man's life, and the evolutionary factors since-fact is, that while we are in many ways of the same design basis (we'[re built for running, we're built for running, _we're built for *running*_) we've evolved since those times, and dairy is a perfect example.

I'm lactose intolerant. This is directly related to my racial genome: 95% of Native Americans are, 90% of African Americans are, and 90% of Polynesians are. Lactose intolerance takes place because an adult body no longer manufactures the enzyme required to process diary, lactase. It's prominent across racial lines for very easy to discern reasons: people like east Asians, Africans, Native Americans, and Polynesians in their native enviromnments can get ample vitamin D from sunlight, and calcium from leafy green vegetables, so they don't need to use dairy to get these nutrients. Northern and eastern Europeans, however, come from an environment lacking in both of these things, and, over time, evolved to continue producing lactase in adulthood, so they can get vitamin D and calcium from milk. This is an early adaptation-their bodies changed so that they could survive in their environment on the food products that were available to them. 

We're no more "paleo" than the "paleo diet" is.


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## Carol (Nov 2, 2010)

J Ellis said:


> Reinhard is a very nice guy and responsive to questions and feedback about his various systems. Shovelglove is a lot of fun and effective as well.
> 
> If you are interested in low cost kettlebelling, you should invest in a Kettlestack. I love mine. Truthfully, I can do all of the exercises I enjoy with a kettlebell with a standard dumbbell also, but there are several I much prefer with the Kettlestack.



Awesome feedback!!  Thank you very much :asian:


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## Senjojutsu (Nov 4, 2010)

Unfortunately I have not been able to find this Cardiologist&#8217;s book.

Perhaps I over-emphasized the doctor&#8217;s identification of his paleo-diet factoring.

What he was getting at with &#8220;walk for at least twenty minutes&#8221; was to preach (warn) us to stop being so sedentary in our modern lifestyles and engage in a base level of activity that would aid pancreatic efficacy &#8211; and not be &#8220;caveman fit&#8221; ready to jog down a deer or two.


Not a scientific finding, sure, but like the old saying:
When I was your age - there weren&#8217;t no school buses for us!
I use to walk to school everyday: Barefoot!, in the snow and rain, wind blowing in my face, uphill - BOTH WAYS!! (See if your children were paying attention to your rant to find the logical disconnect)

As an aside this past weekend on a beautiful Fall weekend - I was watching people fighting to get the closest possible vehicle parking space at the local supermarket &#8211; you&#8217;re going to be walking the shopping aisles you dolts. 

Or to ask rhetorically &#8211; fifty years ago they weren&#8217;t marketing &#8220;low fat&#8221; items or diet soda offerings &#8211; but the incidence of adult obesity and diabetes was so much lower than today?


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## elder999 (Nov 12, 2010)

Just found this. It's a persitence hunt:

[yt]9wI-9RJi0Qo[/yt]


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