# Kodokan vs. Budokan



## SPQR

What's the different between Kodokan Judo and Budokan Judo?


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## Robert Carver

There is no such thing as "Budokan Judo". The Budokan is an arena located in Tokyo, Japan where events of various types are held to include martial arts exhibitions and tournaments, sporting events and concerts.

http://www.geocities.com/smokyrobmoore/jp051500.htm

"Budokan" btw means "martial way hall" and is often used in the name of dojos around the world. For instance, Darrell Craig Sensei teaches at the Houston Budokan.


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## TonyM.

Yeah, what he said. A prime example would be Cheap trick Live at Budokan, which is definetly a martial assault on the hearing and central nervous system.


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## SPQR

Robert Carver said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as "Budokan Judo". The Budokan is an arena located in Tokyo, Japan where events of various types are held to include martial arts exhibitions and tournaments, sporting events and concerts.


I knew of the arena.  The reason why I asked was that one judoka told me about some differences in techniques between Kodokan and Budokan...


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## Robert Carver

SPQR said:
			
		

> I knew of the arena.  The reason why I asked was that one judoka told me about some differences in techniques between Kodokan and Budokan...



Hmm, no offense, but based on my experience as a Judoka, any "Judoka" who would make such a claim of another style, system or ryu of Judo, hasn't the slightest clue what he is talking about. While there are folks that may talk about "Kosen Judo" or "Olympic Judo", they are really talking about a distinction in the way the art is practiced, that is all. To us folks that have been doing Judo for several decades, there is really only one Judo, and that is Kodokan Judo.


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## SPQR

Thank you for your help!


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## Shogun

To me, there are TWO kinds of Judo: Real and not real. lol.

One of the Judo schools in my area is the Budokan Judo club, and they teach Kodokan.


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## Patrick Skerry

Shogun said:
			
		

> To me, there are TWO kinds of Judo: Real and not real. lol.
> 
> One of the Judo schools in my area is the Budokan Judo club, and they teach Kodokan.


That just means the name of your judo club is Budokan where kodokan judo is taught.  Again, it is just easy to remember there is only one kind of judo and that is kodokan judo.


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## ace

Robert Carver said:
			
		

> Hmm, no offense, but based on my experience as a Judoka, any "Judoka" who would make such a claim of another style, system or ryu of Judo, hasn't the slightest clue what he is talking about. While there are folks that may talk about "Kosen Judo" or "Olympic Judo", they are really talking about a distinction in the way the art is practiced, that is all. To us folks that have been doing Judo for several decades, there is really only one Judo, and that is Kodokan Judo.



What about Jikinshin Ryu Judo Which Can be traced
Back to  Japan 200 Years Before the Birth of Kano?????


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## Saitama Steve

That's Jikishin ryu and it is an extinct ryuha of jujutsu. Yes, Jikishin ryu used the term Judo first, but they aren't around anymore. What's your point please?


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## Robert Carver

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> That's Jikishin ryu and it is an extinct ryuha of jujutsu. Yes, Jikishin ryu used the term Judo first, but they aren't around anymore. What's your point please?


Thank you Steve.


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## ace

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> That's Jikishin ryu and it is an extinct ryuha of jujutsu. Yes, Jikishin ryu used the term Judo first, but they aren't around anymore. What's your point please?



It was stated that there was no other Judo
other than the Kodokan which was false


The Jikishin Ryu has survived  & has an organization 
Through out Europe & some Reps in the States.

It was Stated that REAL Judoka know That there 
is no other Judo Than The Kodokan Which is
A Blind Statement When Ulook at History.......

And For the Record Kano was 1st a Ju Jitsu Man.
Haveing studied 3 differnt forms of Ju Jitsu

He took out the harmful Tec. Such as Leg Locks
& Kicking & Striking during Randori out

Kano Studyed Kito Ryu ,Tenjinshino Ryu & Yoshin Ryu
All are forms of Ju Jitsu.

He also had many Students who had spent most of there lives
Practising Ju Jitsu.....

Back to The Jikishin Ryu They were the 1st to Use the Name
So to say ther r was no other styel of Judo is a Lie

Quote from Neil Adams Kodokan Judo was Kano's form of Ju Jitsu
Point Made :wavey:


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## Robert Carver

No ACE, I stated "To us folks that have been doing Judo for several decades, there *is* really only one Judo, and that is Kodokan Judo." The operative word is "IS" not "WAS". Jikishin ryu is an extinct ryu is Jujutsu, and just because some people in Europe and a couple of folks here in the US claim to be teaching it, does not make it so. I could start calling what I teach Jikishin ryu, and it would have basically the same bearing. Steve LIVES in Japan and if the ryu, with lineage traceable back to its beginning, does not exist in Japan, then it is extinct. Also, in 1724, the fourth headmaster of Jikishin ryu, Inoue Masayori, changed the name to Jikishin ryu Judo, but he did not create a new art. On the otherhand, Kano Sensei literally created a new art from the Jujutsu ryu he was educated in. While the Jikishin ryu was the first, but not the last system of Jujutsu to use the term "Judo", they did not create a style called Judo. Kano did.


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## Patrick Skerry

Hi Ace,

I really do not like to quibble, so to help you out, here are two sites to give you some background of Jikishin-ryu judo and Kodokan judo:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/search/topic/13747-1.html

http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist3.htm

In brief; Dr. Kano borrowed, not invent, the term judo from Jikishin-ryu, and added the adjective 'Kodokan' so as not to confuse the two schools.

I believe what was meant by no other Judo but Kodokan Judo, was that Kodokan Judo has no different styles, as Karate, Kung-fu or Aikido seems to have.  For example, there are several styles of karate, but there is only one Kodokan Judo.



			
				ace said:
			
		

> It was stated that there was no other Judo
> other than the Kodokan which was false
> 
> 
> The Jikishin Ryu has survived & has an organization
> Through out Europe & some Reps in the States.
> 
> It was Stated that REAL Judoka know That there
> is no other Judo Than The Kodokan Which is
> A Blind Statement When Ulook at History.......
> 
> And For the Record Kano was 1st a Ju Jitsu Man.
> Haveing studied 3 differnt forms of Ju Jitsu
> 
> He took out the harmful Tec. Such as Leg Locks
> & Kicking & Striking during Randori out
> 
> Kano Studyed Kito Ryu ,Tenjinshino Ryu & Yoshin Ryu
> All are forms of Ju Jitsu.
> 
> He also had many Students who had spent most of there lives
> Practising Ju Jitsu.....
> 
> Back to The Jikishin Ryu They were the 1st to Use the Name
> So to say ther r was no other styel of Judo is a Lie
> 
> Quote from Neil Adams Kodokan Judo was Kano's form of Ju Jitsu
> Point Made :wavey:


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## Robert Carver

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> I believe what was meant by no other Judo but Kodokan Judo, was that Kodokan Judo has no different styles, as Karate, Kung-fu or Aikido seems to have.  For example, there are several styles of karate, but there is only one Kodokan Judo.


For once, we are in total agreement!


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## ace

Http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensi6.html


Http://jikishin.com

Here are a couple of Links

I tried the 1st 1 but seems to be wacked Try Sensi6
Interesting Reading....


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## bignick

Robert Carver said:
			
		

> For once, we are in total agreement!


first time for everything, huh?


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## Patrick Skerry

ace said:
			
		

> Http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensi6.html
> 
> 
> Http://jikishin.com
> 
> Here are a couple of Links
> 
> I tried the 1st 1 but seems to be wacked Try Sensi6
> Interesting Reading....


It is interesting that Jikishin-ryu judo has withstood the test of time, and historically interesting that Dr. Jigoro Kano called his system Kodokan Judo, to differentiate it from Jikinshin Judo, which used the term 'judo' prior to Dr. Kano.


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## SPQR

Robert Carver said:
			
		

> For once, we are in total agreement!


Hey, my ignorant question had some positive results after all!


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## Saitama Steve

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> It is interesting that Jikishin-ryu judo has withstood the test of time, and historically interesting that Dr. Jigoro Kano called his system Kodokan Judo, to differentiate it from Jikinshin Judo, which used the term 'judo' prior to Dr. Kano.



Ah, but there's the rub. The British jujutsu school featured on that website has absolutely nothing to do with the old Jikishin ryu. What they do is BJJA jujutsu, which is an amalgamation of judo, karate, aikido and old WW2 combatives tricks (If they still teach them).

Bear in mind, that there are weapons school out there with similar names (e.g. Jikishin kage ryu naginatajutsu & Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu) but there is no school of classical jujutsu in Japan called Jikishin ryu. The only jikishin ryu you will find these days, is Jikishin ryu Kado. 

Kado is the way of insence. You wanna smell good? Go there!


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## Saitama Steve

ace said:
			
		

> It was stated that there was no other Judo
> other than the Kodokan which was false
> 
> The Jikishin Ryu has survived  & has an organization
> Through out Europe & some Reps in the States.
> 
> It was Stated that REAL Judoka know That there
> is no other Judo Than The Kodokan Which is
> A Blind Statement When Ulook at History.......
> 
> And For the Record Kano was 1st a Ju Jitsu Man.
> Haveing studied 3 differnt forms of Ju Jitsu
> 
> He took out the harmful Tec. Such as Leg Locks
> & Kicking & Striking during Randori out
> 
> Kano Studyed Kito Ryu ,Tenjinshino Ryu & Yoshin Ryu
> All are forms of Ju Jitsu.
> 
> He also had many Students who had spent most of there lives
> Practising Ju Jitsu.....
> 
> Back to The Jikishin Ryu They were the 1st to Use the Name
> So to say ther r was no other styel of Judo is a Lie
> 
> Quote from Neil Adams Kodokan Judo was Kano's form of Ju Jitsu
> Point Made :wavey:



Yes, it was stated that there is no other form of judo than Kodokan judo. You say this is false. OK, go find me Jikishin ryu judo in Japan. It doesn't exist. 

No, Kano Jigoro studied two forms of classical jujutsu. Tenjin Shinyo ryu and Kito ryu. Kano learned Tenjin Shinyo ryu under Fukuda Hachinosuke and later, under the 3rd generation soke of the ryuha, Iso Masatomo. Iso Masatomo awarded Kano Menkyo Kaiden shortly after he opened the Kodokan. Kano learned Kito ryu under IIkubo Tsunetoshi and was a awarded Menkyo Kaiden in that ryuha too. 

Kano didn't study Yoshin ryu. His school, the Kodokan fought against Totsuka ha Yoshin ryu jujutsu at one of the police jujutsu matches during the Meiji era. (BTW, Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu is an amalgamation of two ryuha; Yoshin ryu and Shin No Shindo ryu)

I have it on good knowledge that the leglocks weren't taken out of the Kodokan syllabus until the mid-1930's  Another thing to look at is Mifune Kyuzo's "The Canon of Judo" which contains several leglocks as standard kansetsu waza.

and, yes Jikishin ryu were the first to use the term judo, but they aren't around any more. The ryuha is extinct. Therefore, there is only one form of Judo at the moment and that is Kodokan judo.


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## Patrick Skerry

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> Ah, but there's the rub. The British jujutsu school featured on that website has absolutely nothing to do with the old Jikishin ryu. What they do is BJJA jujutsu, which is an amalgamation of judo, karate, aikido and old WW2 combatives tricks (If they still teach them).
> 
> Bear in mind, that there are weapons school out there with similar names (e.g. Jikishin kage ryu naginatajutsu & Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu) but there is no school of classical jujutsu in Japan called Jikishin ryu. The only jikishin ryu you will find these days, is Jikishin ryu Kado.
> 
> Kado is the way of insence. You wanna smell good? Go there!


Hello Saitama Steve,

Nice post with interesting information.  Just a question, if Jikishin ryu is currently extinct or defunct, how or why would that particular British jujutsu school featured in that website comeup or utilize the name of Jikishin ryu?  Why would they use that name?  Thanks!


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## Saitama Steve

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hello Saitama Steve,
> 
> Nice post with interesting information.  Just a question, if Jikishin ryu is currently extinct or defunct, how or why would that particular British jujutsu school featured in that website comeup or utilize the name of Jikishin ryu?  Why would they use that name?  Thanks!



Because it's a famous name and they probably liked it. 

Also there's probably the marketing aspect; If prospective students do their homework and study a little about the history of jujutsu & judo, invariably, Jikishin ryu is mentioned because of it's coining of the term "judo". Prospective students will think that what they are training and teaching  is the real deal and will join.


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## Steve Scott

Robert and Patrick both have excellent posts on this subject and are completely accurate.  I really can't add much of anything to this discussion other than it's great to see people think with such clarity and express themselves this well.  
Prof. Kano was a brilliant man and his Kodokan literally re-shaped the world of jujutsu and bujutsu.  It's my belief that if Prof. had not developed Kodokan Judo, the jujutsu ryuha of Japan would not have survived at all, even though the Kodokan did obsure many of them.  Jujutsu (jujitsu) as we know it today would not exist, except for a few schools of jujutsu.  Japan in the Meiji era simply was turning away from the fuedal military arts, including jujutsu and it was Kano who kept these arts alive. His political and social influence was possibly as instrumental as the technical innovations of the Kodokan in keeping the martial disciplines alive and thriving in Japan.
Kodokan Judo is the only "style" of judo today.  Some people in various locations may have altered judo to fit their own needs or philosophy of training, but as Patrick pointed out, there are no "styles" of judo as in other martial arts.
Steve Scott


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## Saitama Steve

On the contrary, Steve,

Kodokan Judo contributed to the decline in popularity of koryu jujutsu. Especially after the police jujutsu matches during the Meiji era. 

After the kodokan beat Totsuka Ha Yoshin ryu and Ryoi Shinto ryu in 1883 at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Station dojo, the popularity of the more classical and individualistic budo ryuha waned and the more group oriented gendai budo became more and more popular. 

However, Kano did teach and preserve the more classical aspects of koryu jujutsu in Kodokan judo by creating the kime no kata, which is a selection of techniques derived from Tenjin shinyo ryu jujutsu. Then there is the Itsutsu No Kata, which are the five final kata taught in Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu's syallabus (Albeit slightly changed from the koryu). 

Kano also taught the Koshiki Kata, which are the Omote and Ura sections from Kito ryu jujutsu.


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## Steve Scott

You and I are in agreement Steve.  Prof. Kano preserved the jujutsu kata you mentioned by incorporating them into his Kodokan...thus, preserving them.
My point was simply that Kano's significant influence in Japanese society and the world of sport (albeit a fledgling one in Japan at the time) was his springboard to preserve the culture of jujtsu in Japan.  The Japanese in the Meiji era were turning from the feudal ways of Japan and the bugei arts were no exception.  I'm sure some of the traditional schools would have remained without Kano's influence, and have to this day, but Kano was instrumental in keeping the martial disciplines (at least what we call jujutsu) in front of the general population.
However...you are quite correct in saying that the Kodokan helped in the immediate decline of koryu jujutsu in Japan.  Many jujutsu masters were resentful of Kano's influence.  It seems that the Kodokan incorporated the older jujutsu systems and the masters of those systems lost their influence on their arts.  A shame...truly, from both a cultural and technical point of view.
I enjoy our conversation Steve.  It's not often that martial arts people can discuss these things on forums like this.  I've looked in at other martial arts forums from time to time and read too much bickering and superficial chat.  Seems like a lot of kids telling each other how tough they are and not much more. I'm probably a "nerd" when it comes to this stuff, but I thoroughly enjoy the history of the Japanese martial disciplines, primarily judo and jujutsu.
Steve Scott


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## ace

http://www.bstkd.com/bulletin1.htm

Acording to this Artical from JAPAN
Kano Studied Guess? :asian:


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## Saitama Steve

Well if it's written on the internet, it must without a doubt has to be categorically 100% true!   

Kano didn't study Jikishin ryu.  

He studied Tenjin Shinyo ryu (&#22825;&#31070;&#30495;&#26954;&#27969; ) under Fukuda Hachinosuke & Iso Masatomo and Kito ryu (&#36215;&#20498;&#27969; ) under Iikubo Tsunetoshi. 

Kano Jigoro 

Tenjin shinyo ryu


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## ace

Kito Ryu Jikishin Ryu Connection.

http:www.jujitsusites.com/urmstonjj lindex.cfm.cfm?page+6
If The Link does not Go Through U can look up Kito Ryu Jikishn Ryu
Connection or Urmston ju jitsu


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## ace

Another Link  http://jujitsu.gungfu.com


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## Saitama Steve

OK, when was the last time you were at the Kodokan? Have you seen Kano sensei's makimono (teaching scrolls) for Tenjin Shinyo ryu? 

Have you even tried to do some bonafide research outside of the internet on this? 

Putting all of this faith into information written on a webpage when you don't know if it's true or not is a bit of wooly thinking isn't it?


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## ace

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> OK, when was the last time you were at the Kodokan? Have you seen Kano sensei's makimono (teaching scrolls) for Tenjin Shinyo ryu?
> 
> Have you even tried to do some bonafide research outside of the internet on this?
> 
> Putting all of this faith into information written on a webpage when you don't know if it's true or not is a bit of wooly thinking isn't it?




I read alot About  Martial Arts When Im Not Mixing it up
In The Cage , or Competing in Grappling ,Ju Jitsu So on.

Yes I've done tons of Reserch from The Computer
And Yes I've Read Ton's of Books On Many Martial Arts

I have a good Section O Judo,Ju Jitsu as well as other
Martial Arts. I've Been Envolved in Martial Arts on & off since I was 2
Years old

No Never Been to The Kodokan.


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## Saitama Steve

Well then just because a few webpages on the internet say that Kano studied Jikishin ryu, that doesn't mean it's true. 

I train in Kodokan judo, classical jujutsu and weaponry and I also try and mix it up now and then with a bit of vale tudo. Part of the learning process for these martial arts is to learn the history and the roots of these arts. 

If you get the chance, read THIS BOOK 

Lots of good quality, well researched information, by professional teachers and researchers of classical & modern Japanese martial arts. 

Cheers mate.


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## ace

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> Well then just because a few webpages on the internet say that Kano studied Jikishin ryu, that doesn't mean it's true.
> 
> I train in Kodokan judo, classical jujutsu and weaponry and I also try and mix it up now and then with a bit of vale tudo. Part of the learning process for these martial arts is to learn the history and the roots of these arts.
> 
> If you get the chance, read THIS BOOK
> 
> Lots of good quality, well researched information, by professional teachers and researchers of classical & modern Japanese martial arts.
> 
> Cheers mate.



looks decent will have to check it out


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## Patrick Skerry

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> OK, when was the last time you were at the Kodokan? Have you seen Kano sensei's makimono (teaching scrolls) for Tenjin Shinyo ryu?
> 
> Have you even tried to do some bonafide research outside of the internet on this?
> 
> Putting all of this faith into information written on a webpage when you don't know if it's true or not is a bit of wooly thinking isn't it?


Hi,

I just want to agree with you about the shortcomings of the internet for any serious research.  The internet is an open forum and some of the veracity of the information is very suspect, if the subject is covered at all.  You always have to verify the data you find on the web, usually it means back to the books.
The internet is good for a general place to start, or a quick look for a subject, but that is about it.  Just because a subject is on the web does not grant it instant validation!


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## Patrick Skerry

> If you get the chance, read THIS BOOK
> 
> 
> 
> Very good book.  I was fortunate to have read it several times at the Boston Public Library before it went missing.
Click to expand...


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## Steve Scott

Just to confirm the point Saitama Steve is making...Before there was ever such a thing as the Internet, back in the "old days" of the mid 1960s, I was a voracious reader of BLACK BELT magazine.  In those days, BLACK BELT covered a lot of judo, classical bugei, obsure Korean and Chinese martial arts, and other great subjects.  If you can get your hands on any old issues of BLACK BELT magazine from the 1960s through mid-1970s, you will have a gold mine of information on the martial arts.
I have a book collection of about 100 to 125 judo, jujutsu and sambo books in various languages (none are in Japanese).  But I do have a rare copy of the CANON OF JUDO by Mifune in the collection and this is a masterpiece.
There is a lot of good information on the Internet, but there is also some stuff that is just plain incorrect.  You have to be careful and attempt to verify any information with other media such as books, videos or publications.  
I did spend a brief time at the Kodokan and I would encourage any serious judoka to do the same.  I enjoyed it immensely, took some great beatings in the main dojo and learned a lot about myself and my judo.
Steve Scott


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## JDenz

The problem with alot of things that are history are even if you get a book that doesn't mean it is true either.  Espically in MA.  You can find books from all the diffrent era's and they all say diffrent things.  Writting about whatever is popular at the time and embellishing those arts.  
   By the way lol Ace time to get back in the cage everywhere you go you are getting in fights online lol.


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## ace

By the way lol Ace time to get back in the cage everywhere you go you are getting in fights lol.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Jan. 2005 I should be ready by then.


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