# Black belt - is this ok?



## TigerLove (Apr 25, 2010)

I train Taekwon do for 10 months, six times a week, two hours training, most of the time intensive and hard training.

I earned black belt.

I asked my master is is ok, he sad it is, and if i missed something, i have almost two years until i can go for 2nd Dan, so in that time i will compensate it.

He sad i completely deserve my black belt.


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## ATC (Apr 25, 2010)

10 months?! Even in Korea it takes 1 year. Only you and your Master really knows if it is OK.


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## terryl965 (Apr 25, 2010)

10 months I would say no way do you deserve a B.B. But that is my personal thing. If your Master says it is right than it is for him. My people train 6 days a week 1.5-2.0 hours per day would recieve thier B.B. in about 3-4 years but once again that is my school and the way I do it.


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## Marginal (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> I train Taekwon do for 10 months, six times a week, two hours training, most of the time intensive and hard training.
> 
> I earned black belt.



You define the worth of your own belt. Keep at it!


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## Haakon (Apr 25, 2010)

Is Tae Kwon do the first or only style you trained in? That is, did you go from zero experience to black belt in 10 months? If not then you might have hit the ground running, if it was your first/only style then that would be EXTREMELY fast, by anyone standards. I earned my black belt in about 2.5 years, about 1.5 years of that was training 6 days a week 2-3 hours a day, with practice at home on Sundays. Even that was very fast.

Do you deserve it? No one can say based on one post on how long you trained, some videos if you in action would give people far more to base it on. But in the end if your teacher says you deserve it, and you feel like you have earned it, that is what counts.

You must have tested every month to get to 1st dan so quickly, don't get discouraged at the 2 year wait until the test for 2nd dan.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> I train Taekwon do for 10 months, six times a week, two hours training, most of the time intensive and hard training.
> 
> I earned black belt.
> 
> ...


 

1. If your schoool has a website please post it. 
2. How much have you paid so far in training and test fees? 
3. What was the average time and # of classes for other Black Belts at your school to achieve this rank? 
4. Have you ever been to any tournaments and competed against people your own rank? 
5. What patterns have you learned? 

The fact that you are asking this question shows that you may feel further inquiry is needed. Where are you located? perhaps someone here can refer you to other schools in your location so you can observe the abilities of their similarly ranked students.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 25, 2010)

In Korea, I trained 6 days a week, 2-3 hours a day for a year, one-on-one with a 6th Dan.......WITH 2 years of previous experience (when I was much younger) and it took me about 11 months.  I just barely made it in the year, if that counts as a comparison.


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## terryl965 (Apr 25, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> In Korea, I trained 6 days a week, 2-3 hours a day for a year, one-on-one with a 6th Dan.......WITH 2 years of previous experience (when I was much younger) and it took me about 11 months. I just barely made it in the year, if that counts as a comparison.


 

But that was one on one and not a classroom setting, plus you had some experience with another Art.


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## TigerLove (Apr 25, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> 1. If your schoool has a website please post it.
> 2. How much have you paid so far in training and test fees?
> 3. What was the average time and # of classes for other Black Belts at your school to achieve this rank?
> 4. Have you ever been to any tournaments and competed against people your own rank?
> ...



1._ We don't have it._
2._At beggining 20$ for monthly training, testing 15$. But since i losted my job, i don't pay anything (about 70$ to ITF for BB certificate)._
3._Litlle longer i think 2-3 years._
4._yes, i have four internacional medals (i was blue then)_
5._chon ji
dan gun
do san
yul gok
joong gun
toi gye
hwa rang
choong moo_

_on my first dan test i had: all forms i mentioned, in one sequence, sparring on 3, 2 and 1 steps, two special tehnics, board breaking, ten self defenses (hosinsul), and full contact sparring 3 x 3 minutes._

_i am located ina slavonia, croatia. i am asking this question because around the web i saw it isn't usually to achieve bb so fast. about other schools in my location, i don't see much differents between me and rest of bb.

looks like this isn't something usually. anyway, i believe i deserve it.

that's not my first touch with martial arts, i trained ninjutsu for a year and martial sport called kickbox about a year also. _


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## MBuzzy (Apr 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> But that was one on one and not a classroom setting, plus you had some experience with another Art.



Exactly my point


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## terryl965 (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> cheers


 

I have to say somethjing you said you believe you earned it but yet you come here and ask question which tell us the opposite. I mean I do not believe anybody can achieve a NN in 10 months and truely be a BB, I mean what about applications of poomsae's, Tuls, kata or form? Please breakdown the application sequence for Chon-Ji rge simpliest of patterns? I willwait to see wjat you have to say.


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## TigerLove (Apr 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I have to say somethjing you said you believe you earned it but yet you come here and ask question which tell us the opposite. I mean I do not believe anybody can achieve a NN in 10 months and truely be a BB, I mean what about applications of poomsae's, Tuls, kata or form? Please breakdown the application sequence for Chon-Ji rge simpliest of patterns? I willwait to see wjat you have to say.



wrong conclusion. i ask to see what others mean, not because i suspect in myself. offcourse i know my forms, but i don't see need in showing it to you (and i dont have it recorded). even if i'm by somewhat's standards not real bb, in this at least two years till my 2nd dan i surely will be, and that's what counts i think. for 2nd day everybody must be tested in front of internacional commision, by testers which holds 6 or higher dans, and no plays there.

i feel some bad vibrations here 

 i just asked what do you think about it. you think it's not possibly and ok, we have different masters, different schools.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> 1._ We don't have it._
> 2._At beggining 20$ for monthly training, testing 15$. But since i losted my job, i don't pay anything (about 70$ to ITF for BB certificate)._
> 3._Litlle longer i think 2-3 years._
> 4._yes, i have four internacional medals (i was blue then)_
> ...


 
A. Did you not learn Won Hyo  (between Do San and Yul Guk), or did you forget to type it?
B. Do you know which ITF you are with?  whose name is on your certificate as president of the ITF? 
C. What is your dan number? 
D. What is your instrucors ITF Plaque #.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> i just asked what do you think about it. you think it's not possibly and ok, we have different masters, different schools.


 
Perhaps we do, perhaps not.  (I know the post was not directed toward me. )
The fastest I am acquainteed with was someone I started with who made ITF BB in a year and a half. He had no prior training.  Averaged about 10 classes a week and had an older brother to train with as well. 

FWIW I am well acquainted with ITF standards and practices. 
Highlights of my resume:
http://371078645507472465-a-1802744...Ycv_i5Cm8XVpup-ByC6tqocseQ3A==&attredirects=0


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## TigerLove (Apr 25, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> A. Did you not learn Won Hyo  (between Do San and Yul Guk), or did you forget to type it?
> B. Do you know which ITF you are with?  whose name is on your certificate as president of the ITF?
> C. What is your dan number?
> D. What is your instrucors ITF Plaque #.



i forgot to type won hyo! i am in the general choi's itf. rest of info i don't want to place here because of practical reasons - i just wanted to hear oppinions from others, not to justify my self why i have bb or to aproove it to someone.

i heard it, and that is what i wanted to. only that. what to say, i just want to train and that's all i want, time will show the rest.


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## terryl965 (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> wrong conclusion. i ask to see what others mean, not because i suspect in myself. offcourse i know my forms, but i don't see need in showing it to you (and i dont have it recorded). even if i'm by somewhat's standards not real bb, in this at least two years till my 2nd dan i surely will be, and that's what counts i think. for 2nd day everybody must be tested in front of internacional commision, by testers which holds 6 or higher dans, and no plays there.
> 
> i feel some bad vibrations here
> 
> i just asked what do you think about it. you think it's not possibly and ok, we have different masters, different schools.


 

Tigerlove I did not ask you if you knew your forms and by the way they would be called Tuls, what I ask if you know the application of your forms? That would be totally different by the way, this is why I question if you are truely a BB since you do not know the difference? I mean anybody can rememver movements in sequence, but to actually drive into the apllication is what makes a BB. Like you said you have two years to learn them, well let me infotm you ot will take longer to fully understand what is all the applications. Since you feel you are being pick on, maybe because you really are looking for someone to justify your NN. I would guess you posted on another website and got hammered ny people and know you are looking for justification, and I gope you really become a BB one day, keep training and maybe you will. Let me ask one more question what is your Master full name?


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## TigerLove (Apr 25, 2010)

as i said for practical reasons, i won't get out with my or my instructors name. as applications, you mean knowing the purpose of every move in form and visualising situation? if that, i know the application.


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## garrisons2 (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove, the net is that we can not tell whether you "deserve" a BB, however you must admit that the elapsed time is very short, and very unusual.   I did take note of you twice mentioning that even if you are not BB stds  now you will be in two years.  

 For what it's worth, to me the journey has been far more rewarding than the amount of time it took.   My humble advice is to keep training, have fun and let the rank fall where they may,  Good luck


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## TigerLove (Apr 25, 2010)

i don't want anymore to excuse or justify my self for wearing a bb. 

 i just want to train, and no belt will change what i know or what i don't know. i love martial arts, and taekwondo, and i will train it while i love it.


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## terryl965 (Apr 25, 2010)

I guess I do not understand why your instructor name is so private? I will just come to relize that you train with someone that has to be secretibe anout them. Just train and enjoy TKD and let yourself believe what you will. I have been in the Arts for over 45 years and can tell you all my instructor and thier ramk and schools names but then again they have no reason to hide.:asian:


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## TigerLove (Apr 25, 2010)

it's just about i dont want to take right to mention names of my instructors in so public places, especially in this context. no any other reason for hiding.

just it, i train because i love it. about belts, time will show everything. i believe i deserve my belt. 

even if i didn't, maybe doesn't matter. or i will stop train soon and my certificate will be just paper on the wall, or i will continue through years and i will definitely justify bb i earned these days.


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## terryl965 (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> it's just about i dont want to take right to mention names of my instructors in so public places, especially in this context. no any other reason for hiding.
> 
> just it, i train because i love it. about belts, time will show everything. i believe i deserve my belt.
> 
> even if i didn't, maybe doesn't matter. or i will stop train soon and my certificate will be just paper on the wall, or i will continue through years and i will definitely justify bb i earned these days.


 

like I said enjoy your training and remember evrything is not what it seems. I have enjoyed this thread and maybe if I ever get tp your necj of the woods we can train and enjoy a good meal.:asian:


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## TigerLove (Apr 25, 2010)

i also enjoyed, just disliked justifying for my bb, but i understand you and the others, no hard feelings. all i have to say is in my post before this one.

about this you mentioned..hope so! life is unpredictable :asian:


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## Tames D (Apr 25, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> I train Taekwon do for 10 months, six times a week, two hours training, most of the time intensive and hard training.
> 
> I earned black belt.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like you are a talented individual. You know, Joe Lewis earned his Black Belt in the same amount of time as you. I don't recall 
ANYONE questioning his promotion then or now. I'm not saying that you are of Joe Lewis's caliber, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Dude, keep doing what you are doing. You're on the right path.


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> i also enjoyed, just disliked justifying for my bb, but i understand you and the others, no hard feelings. all i have to say is in my post before this one.
> 
> about this you mentioned..hope so! life is unpredictable :asian:


Well, the true learning starts now!
Have fun on the journey!


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## MBuzzy (Apr 26, 2010)

Everyone should remember that Tigerlove is in another country - so posting personal information or information about an instructor may not be as simple of a matter as it is here.  Things may be drastically different there, so don't judge based on American standards.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 26, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> i am in the general choi's itf. rest of info i don't want to place here because of practical reasons - i just wanted to hear oppinions from others, .


 
Well, opinions are as follows:
1. If you say you are in General Choi's ITF either you are hiding something or are blissfuly unaware of what's going on, or perhaps even being ripped off. (You wouldn't be the first). 
2. General Choi died in 2002 and 3 groups use the term ITF. That is why I asked what group you were in and if you did not know the name of the president on your ITF Cert.  Since each group has many members disclosing this would not reveal any personal info you wish to keep secret. 
3. For any student to think that they can improve material they should have been more adept at before a test, after a test when new material should be introduced is a bad model.


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## TigerLove (Apr 26, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Well, opinions are as follows:
> 1. If you say you are in General Choi's ITF either you are hiding something or are blissfuly unaware of what's going on, or perhaps even being ripped off. (You wouldn't be the first).
> 2. General Choi died in 2002 and 3 groups use the term ITF. That is why I asked what group you were in and if you did not know the name of the president on your ITF Cert.  Since each group has many members disclosing this would not reveal any personal info you wish to keep secret.
> 3. For any student to think that they can improve material they should have been more adept at before a test, after a test when new material should be introduced is a bad model.



I don't want to discuss anymore, at least not in the way i do now with you. This thread is about my question what people thinks on gettin bb in 10 months of training, and not about justifying myself for that.

I sad this third time now, and you now becoming unpolite, because of asking me same questions again. I respect you and all you accomplished ( :asian: ), but also i ask for same from you, since i didn't do anything bad.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 26, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> I train Taekwon do for *10 months, six times a week, two hours training*, most of the time intensive and hard training.
> 
> I earned black belt.
> 
> ...


Lets put it into perspective: Average time to BB in most commercial schools in the US is 18-24 months in TKD, with students going to a one hour class class 2 times a week on average.  That comes out to 144 hours in 18 months and 208 hours for 24 months.  Six two hour classes per week in ten months, averaging four weeks per month, comes out to 480 hours.

So if your only question is the amount of *time* it took you from white to black, in terms of time actually spent in formal training, you ahve more than twice that of the average two year black belt.

As far as the quality of your training, knowledge of curriculum, depth of knowledge, sparring skill, and overall quality, that is something that your instructor knows better than any of us.

I am of the opinion that, even within the same organization, a blackbelt has little meaning outside of the school that issued it.  If you go to another school, they will know fairly quickly what your quality is as soon as you step onto the mat and start performing, regardless of what belt you are wearing.

You take the class to learn what the teacher has to teach, not to get a belt.  The belt serves only to mark where you are in the curriculum and that you are proficient in what you have learned before that point.  That is all.  

I do think that you should try to answer Earl's questions regarding federation and president, as that will not say anything about your master or school.  You certainly don't have to, but Earl is very knowledgeable and can likely give you a very good perspective on your question.  But organizations differ in time in grade averages, so it may be helpful to let him know.

Lastly, congrats!  Remember that a blackbelt is a white belt who didn't quit.  A second dan is a blackbelt who didn't quit.  A third dan is... well, you get the picture.

Daniel


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## Manny (Apr 26, 2010)

Tiger Lover, it took me 4 years to ern my bb in TKD at a steady pace, some times training two hours a day three times per week, some times one hour per day, etc,etc, I never push the time limit, my sambunim let me do examination when he think I was ready.

You made your bb test and erned your grade in 10 months giving it all to reach bb status, that's fine your master tought you deserve it and that's fine for you that's what counts.

Now you have to train harder to obtain your second dan black belt in two more years, practice and refine your techs, I made my bb test back in 1987 and I am hoping to do my second dan black belt on june this is almost 22 years afther. Maybe you went to fast maybe I went to slow so what the heck!!! You deserve it and earn it that's ok.

Manny


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## garrisons2 (Apr 26, 2010)

Master Sullivan,  all I can say it wow to the average of between 144 and 208 classroom hrs for BB,  I figured it took me about 450 and couldn't imagine feeling BB ready in less than half that time.


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## terryl965 (Apr 26, 2010)

You know what really cjaps my ***, is the fact everyone believe they should test in two years after recieving there 1st. That is called minimal timeframe not you have time in so know you are a second? What happen about learning the roots of TKD beyond the normal materials?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 26, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> 5._chon ji_
> _dan gun_
> _do san_
> _yul gok_
> ...


 
Interesting. You did say this was "General Choi's ITF", correct? I know, you don't wish to say which of the several "General Choi's ITF" federations your Master is affiliated with. The reason people have asked is because the curriculum is not necessarily the same for all of the splinter groups that have arisen since the time of the Generals death.

Operating strictly from my admitedly faulty memory (and possibly someone with more recent ITF training will correct me if I am wrong), the ITF, as originally structured by General Choi, also required Kwang-Gye and Po-Hoon for BB rank.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 26, 2010)

garrisons2 said:


> Master Sullivan,  all I can say it wow to the average of between 144 and 208 classroom hrs for BB,  I figured it took me about 450 and couldn't imagine feeling BB ready in less than half that time.


Just Daniel is fine.  I do not consider my self a master.  Just an instructor, though I thank you for the compliment.

I will say that I do not think that 144-208 hours is enough or desirable.  It is just what *seems* to be the average in commercial schools.  Certainly, I may be wrong, but that is the feel that I get in talking to others both in my area and on the web.  Twin Fist has ranted about this on numerous occasions, and for the most part, I agree with him.  I do think that if you are in a WTF school that does nothing but train for sparring competition (no forms), two years of intense training is probably enough to compete in that bracket; less material to digest, and comp-only school students tend to train more frequently than the typical commercial school student.  

The general mentality is that people won't stay involved in anything longer than two years, so give them the goal of blackbelt at the end and hit them with a good amount of testing fees along the way.  Students then "graduate" from your school with their black belt and diploma (certificate).

The only reason that I mentioned it is because Tiger has more time in training than most students of commercial TKD schools in the US.

In the end, it is between him and his instructor.  

Daniel


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

Dirty Dog said:


> Interesting. You did say this was "General Choi's ITF", correct? I know, you don't wish to say which of the several "General Choi's ITF" federations your Master is affiliated with. The reason people have asked is because the curriculum is not necessarily the same for all of the splinter groups that have arisen since the time of the Generals death.
> 
> Operating strictly from my admitedly faulty memory (and possibly someone with more recent ITF training will correct me if I am wrong), the ITF, as originally structured by General Choi, also required Kwang-Gye and Po-Hoon for BB rank.



Along that line, I think the million and one organizations have taken what the General forced upon them and made their own adjustments. ITA certainly falls in the Gen Choi lineage (so I have been told) but Po-Hoon was never on the list of requirements...and (oh lord it has been so long) Kwang Gae being the first if the BB hyongs, he might not have mentioned it...

We really need another General to stream line this mess...but that's a story for another day.


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> You know what really cjaps my ***, is the fact everyone believe they should test in two years after recieving there 1st. That is called minimal timeframe not you have time in so know you are a second? What happen about learning the roots of TKD beyond the normal materials?



have some Desitin, it didn't take me but a year to get to 2nd


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## dancingalone (Apr 26, 2010)

Is that common in your org, Granfire?  From what I can remember from my niece training in the ITA (she switched to ATA after making 1st recommended in ITA) your length of time between 1st and second isn't too out of the ordinary.  It's a bit quick though because of those recommended and decided ranks groups like the ITA/ATA use.


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

I am rusty and they implemented several more changes while I wasn't looking.

But yeah, you used to get your BB in a shade under 2 years if you stayed around, 2-3 times a week and missed non of the gradings ever 2 month.
_Disclaimer_: they added another step at each belt color, so things a drawn out a bit.

Then you went from testing ever 2 month to 4 month and at the time with - OK, I lied  at 4 levels, one ever 4 month it's a bit more than a year. But I really did not keep time. But swift, regardless.


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## TigerLove (Apr 26, 2010)

@daniel sullivan

thank you for suming this, i didn't know it until now! plus i practiced at home a lot..

for information, i stay no with it. i know it's maybe not so good for some serious organisation of tkd to give bb for ten months of training, and lots of people despise it. i don't want to put in question name of any organisation, instructor, or my self. i hope you understand it, and probably most of the people would act same.

@dirty dog

kwang gae and po eun aren't required for pass 1st dan test. but in competitions, judges can ask 1dan for those two forms, so most of people here learn them. i didn't.

maybe the best way to sum this is what daniel said: bb matters inside the school you earned it. you can go to school across yours and see totally different bbs. what really counts, is higher dans, where requirements are same everywhere (as i know).


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## terryl965 (Apr 26, 2010)

Ivan Location Croatia Primary Art and Ranking Taekwondo Organizations Moosoolwon, International taekwando federation I hate top break this to you but most of your info is on file here on Martial Talk, so just by checking I know somethings about you. 

Well Ivan I would like to say hello from Texas and of course my name is Terry, I belong to the USAT and A.A.U. we do both ITF and KKW TKD and I call it traditional and the sport side of TKD. I hope you remain with the board, let me ask you this in your country is it regulated by region or is it like here i the states where anybody can open and run a school? I know in Korea you need permission to get one open, just courious.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 26, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> @daniel sullivan
> 
> thank you for suming this, i didn't know it until now! plus i practiced at home a lot..
> 
> for information, i stay no with it. i know it's maybe not so good for some serious organisation of tkd to give bb for ten months of training, and lots of people despise it. i don't want to put in question name of any organisation, instructor, or my self. i hope you understand it, and probably most of the people would act same.


No problem.  

Just to clarify: I do not advocate short periods from white to black belt.  Generally, four years is considered about right in a traditional school (as opposed to a commercial school teaching a traditional art).  

But I do not begrudge the student.  If a student isn't ready and the instructor belts them anyway, that is on the instructor, not the student (in most cases). 

But what is really important?  Whether or not your instructor awarded you a first dan after ten months or how hard you train for the next ten months?

What you do with where you are is more important than how quickly you were given a black belt.  From what you say, you train very hard and are very dedicated.  Keep it up and enjoy!!

Daniel


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## TigerLove (Apr 26, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Ivan Location Croatia Primary Art and Ranking Taekwondo Organizations Moosoolwon, International taekwando federation I hate top break this to you but most of your info is on file here on Martial Talk, so just by checking I know somethings about you.
> 
> Well Ivan I would like to say hello from Texas and of course my name is Terry, I belong to the USAT and A.A.U. we do both ITF and KKW TKD and I call it traditional and the sport side of TKD. I hope you remain with the board, let me ask you this in your country is it regulated by region or is it like here i the states where anybody can open and run a school? I know in Korea you need permission to get one open, just courious.



Well yes, some info is in my profile. Nice to knowing you Terry 

I'm not sure am i understand you question. To run school here, you must have rank which gives you permission to do it. That rank is declared by organisation, and i think it's 4th dan.


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## Malleus (Apr 26, 2010)

Interesting thread.

I think 10 months is a staggeringly short time.

That said:
TigerLove did have previous MA experience.
They did train intensely, a hell of a lot.

I think that a black belt should be a sign that you've achieved a certain level of technique and knowledge about your art. Some people will be exceptional at taking this stuff on board, so I suppose it's possible to do it in such a short timeframe. Nicely done.

Naturally, we can't tell you anything solid without watching you do your thing, and even then only TKDists would have enough of an idea to comment. If you're not sure, pressure test yourself. Enter a competition, fight other blackbelts, see how it works out.


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## terryl965 (Apr 26, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> Well yes, some info is in my profile. Nice to knowing you Terry
> 
> I'm not sure am i understand you question. To run school here, you must have rank which gives you permission to do it. That rank is declared by organisation, and i think it's 4th dan.


 
What I am asking does your country regulate who can teach a martial art or not? I guess by your answer it would be no. I have never liked the country trying to control whu teaches what art, too much politics.


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## FearlessFreep (Apr 26, 2010)

"You're belt only covers two inches of your butt, the rest is up to you"


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 26, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Lets put it into perspective: Average time to BB in most commercial schools in the US is 18-24 months in TKD, with students going to a one hour class class 2 times a week on average. That comes out to 144 hours in 18 months and 208 hours for 24 months. Six two hour classes per week in ten months, averaging four weeks per month, comes out to 480 hours.
> 
> So if your only question is the amount of *time* it took you from white to black, in terms of time actually spent in formal training, you ahve more than twice that of the average two year black belt.
> 
> ...


 
I cannot speak to averages. Only to Experience.  Most ITF schools I am familiar with would average 3 classes a week  for 3 years or 450 hours. 

Now, as General Choi points out in his book expedited schedules are possible BUT the shorter the time in Calender months the more total classroom hours that are needed.  (I don't have the book handy but a comaparison might be 600 hours for a 2 year program.)This reflects a persons ability, both physical and mental to assimilate given amounts of information over time.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 26, 2010)

Dirty Dog said:


> Interesting. , the ITF, as originally structured by General Choi, also required Kwang-Gye and Po-Hoon for BB rank.


 

No, Kwang Gae and Po Eun are learned after reaching first dan and are 2 of the 3 required folr 2nd Dan.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 26, 2010)

granfire said:


> We really need another General to stream line this mess...but that's a story for another day.


 
Ready and waiting


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 26, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I do think that you should try to answer Earl's questions regarding federation and president, as that will not say anything about your master or school. You certainly don't have to, but Earl is very knowledgeable and can likely give you a very good perspective on your question. But organizations differ in time in grade averages, so it may be helpful to let him know.
> 
> Daniel


 
I ask for a  more important reason. Long story short. 

Some years ago met a nice instructor and students who were ITF BBs in my area. I was incredulous that there was an ITF school I did not know about.  This was the 1980s and there were a few old line splinter schools the General let run outside the main groups, so it was possible. Didn't say anything to them since I was an outsider and they liked their instructor. 
Later the school has a meltdown due to the instructor's divorce (I think we may have a former member on this BBS) .  Students get referred to me to continue with ITF certs. and training.  Get their old certs. so they can pick up where they left off.  Their certs were totally bogus. Instructor had been ripping them off for 10 years or so. Put a bad taste in their mouth for the ITF. 

I then decided to always ask the basic questions i.e. cert. # etc.


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## TigerLove (Apr 26, 2010)

@malleus

i had previous experience with ma, ninjutsu for and sport called kickbox. about competitions, i fighted black belts two times, because in fights weight and year is what makes a category, not a belt. but i was blue then.

@terry

i think when wtf is in question, our country must give you certificate to run school. in itf that's not the case. don't hold me to tight for this words, i'm not 100% sure. probably someone else knows better.

--

i'll try to give some opinnion to my bb for 10 months:

 i hold it ok. bb is worth only in your school, as i said you can find different bbs in school across yours. we may talk now whatever, but from 10 bbs from 10 schools probably all of them have different knowledge and time spended in tkd. it's all up to school. what really counts and what is really matter what you do *after becaming 1. dan.* testing for 2. , 3. and so on dans goes out of your school, and then it worth everywhere same.

i am not sayin somebody can give bbs just like that, but if a student really putting himself into it and he's doing it good, maybe time is in second place. bb is a beggining, white belt which started to train, and it's unfair to judge him for thing that is almost completely is up to his master, his school, and his country, and he has just started.

i know few peoples who trained for a year and get a bb, and yes they masters didn't respect required time for bb. but these days, those people has mastered and now are 4. or 5. dan or even runs their schools. where their masters wrong?

some may dislike this approach, some not, but nothing shouldn't be generalized, it's the instructor who knows what is the best for his student.

i believe that this approach may be interpreted in two ways: or instructor finds the best way to gain some fee ; or instructors finds the best way to motivate student to train, and become a master one day.

whatever is in my case, i love taekwondo and i will continue learning it, hope as my health and my knees serves me.


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Ready and waiting


Just don't hold your breath!


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## J Ellis (Apr 26, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> i hold it ok. bb is worth only in your school, as i said you can find different bbs in school across yours. we may talk now whatever, but from 10 bbs from 10 schools probably all of them have different knowledge and time spended in tkd. it's all up to school. what really counts and what is really matter what you do *after becaming 1. dan.* testing for 2. , 3. and so on dans goes out of your school, and then it worth everywhere same.


 
Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument. You're saying a 1st degree BB is only meaningful in the school that awards it, but a higher degree of BB is/should be respected the same everywhere?

You've also implied that if a BB is granted that is undeserved it's not a major problem since after two more years of training the individual will be at a BB level when he or she tests for 2nd degree BB. So are they now a 2nd degree BB with 1st degree BB skills or have they completely caught up and are now a legitimate 2nd degree BB?

Just curious.

Joel


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

J Ellis said:


> Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument. You're saying a 1st degree BB is only meaningful in the school that awards it, but a higher degree of BB is/should be respected the same everywhere?
> 
> You've also implied that if a BB is granted that is undeserved it's not a major problem since after two more years of training the individual will be at a BB level when he or she tests for 2nd degree BB. So are they now a 2nd degree BB with 1st degree BB skills or have they completely caught up and are now a legitimate 2nd degree BB?
> 
> ...



He does have a point tho!


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## IcemanSK (Apr 27, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> I ask for a  more important reason. Long story short.
> 
> Some years ago met a nice instructor and students who were ITF BBs in my area. I was incredulous that there was an ITF school I did not know about.  This was the 1980s and there were a few old line splinter schools the General let run outside the main groups, so it was possible. Didn't say anything to them since I was an outsider and they liked their instructor.
> Later the school has a meltdown due to the instructor's divorce (I think we may have a former member on this BBS) .  Students get referred to me to continue with ITF certs. and training.  Get their old certs. so they can pick up where they left off.  Their certs were totally bogus. Instructor had been ripping them off for 10 years or so. Put a bad taste in their mouth for the ITF.
> ...



As a student from the above school that Master Weiss is referring to, he is spot on in his reasoning. Had we all asked simple questions, it would have saved us all a lot of time & money. Many folks are told "the certificate is in the mail" or "we're an off-shoot of "X" organization" when they never were a part of that organization in the first place. 

But in general, people need to check out schools & instructors thoroughly. It takes little to open a school & certificates are easily printed or outright forged.


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## TigerLove (Apr 27, 2010)

J Ellis said:


> Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument. You're saying a 1st degree BB is only meaningful in the school that awards it, but a higher degree of BB is/should be respected the same everywhere?
> 
> You've also implied that if a BB is granted that is undeserved it's not a major problem since after two more years of training the individual will be at a BB level when he or she tests for 2nd degree BB. So are they now a 2nd degree BB with 1st degree BB skills or have they completely caught up and are now a legitimate 2nd degree BB?
> 
> ...



Yes i think bb is mostly worth only in your school. it offcourse means that you started to learn and that you certainly trained for sometime and learned something. but that time and that learned is from school to school. for higher dans you have several masters who tests you, and most of them had nothing to do with your school.

for second claim, from student to student and school to school. i seen many 2dans with 1dan skills. but again say it maybe doesn't matter since when testing for 3rd dan in front of several masters, you must be skilled as 3rd degree belt, however you know. at least i see it so.


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## ynnad (Apr 27, 2010)

Marginal said:


> You define the worth of your own belt. Keep at it!



This simple statement could answer the hundreds of pages produced on this subject.


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## TigerLove (Apr 27, 2010)

ynnad said:


> This simple statement could answer the hundreds of pages produced on this subject.



offcourse i define it, and it's even doesn't matter to me, from my very personal look, because i know what i know and no belt will change that. i will train how much i want and put myself into it how i want and also no belt will change it. anyway i wear it just at competitions, which i not going to more then twice in a half a year (ok and on seminars, which i am going often as possible).

but even if i define it, i was curious what others think about it.

i put on focus just to train your art and love it, so as love other martial artists and other people. belts are what comes by the way. i would be most happy if i was in some country closer to people from this forum, so we could sometimes train and have some fun later, instead of arguing here.


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## Marginal (Apr 27, 2010)

ynnad said:


> This simple statement could answer the hundreds of pages produced on this subject.



Yeah, but the people that think they 100% deserve their belt aren't likely to be posting on a MA forum. They're too busy swapping orgs etc to increase their rank as quickly as possible.


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## Cirdan (Apr 28, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> I train Taekwon do for 10 months, six times a week, two hours training, most of the time intensive and hard training.
> 
> I earned black belt.
> 
> ...


 
Congrats on your belt, if your master says you deserve it then you do.

Two hours six times a week is pretty hard if you have to balance to with school or a job. On the other hand it is not _that_ impressive either.

"Is this ok?"
Can`t awnser that, I have never been to your shool. Generally I will say black belts I know have put in more hours total and attended a lot of camps over a longer time span. Training as an instructor is also often mandatory.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 28, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> ...belts are what comes by the way.


 
Learning TKD is a path to better mastery of myself. That path has no end; it's not a box to be checked. Belts do show other people that I've been around awhile, but my manner and technique show you more than my belt does. That idea--that seeing someone in action tells you more than their belt does--runs throughout this thread.


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## just2kicku (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm not a TKDist, so I can only go by my own experience. In our art, I trained six and sometimes seven days a week for my first two years. It got me to purple belt. I was also roomies with my instructor and would get woke up all hours of the night for "old school" training in the living room.

I did have previous MA training and it still took me eight years to get my bb. And to this day, I still don't really know if I'm actually qualified! I do think that 10 months is a little quick, but it's not my school. 

Any color the belt is still just as effective in holding your pants up!


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## dbell (Apr 29, 2010)

I have run this through my mind since the OP, and keep coming to this thought:

1st Dan Black Belt to me means that a student has learned all of the basic skills, techniques and philosophy of the system.  He or she may not have 100% internalized it, but they know the main content of the art, and are able to start teaching the basics to other students.  There is still learning, in most arts through 3rd Dan, and some systems 4th Dan and on, but after 1st Dan, more internalization happens.

A person may be able learn, with the proper training, time spent training, etc., the basics of some arts in 10 months, so, yes, this can be accomplished.

In my forty years of studying the arts, including TKD/TSD, I have seen VERY few teachers able to teach it in that time, and even fewer students able to grasp 100% of the basic techniques (requirements through 1st Dan) in 10 months, studying 6 days a week, for three hours a day.  I have seen even fewer people actually studying that much, where they are actually taking lessons and being watched and taught for more than two to three hours a day, six days a week.


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## chrispillertkd (May 2, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> I ask for a more important reason. Long story short.
> 
> Some years ago met a nice instructor and students who were ITF BBs in my area. I was incredulous that there was an ITF school I did not know about. This was the 1980s and there were a few old line splinter schools the General let run outside the main groups, so it was possible. Didn't say anything to them since I was an outsider and they liked their instructor.
> Later the school has a meltdown due to the instructor's divorce (I think we may have a former member on this BBS) . Students get referred to me to continue with ITF certs. and training. Get their old certs. so they can pick up where they left off. *Their certs were totally bogus. Instructor had been ripping them off for 10 years or so. Put a bad taste in their mouth for the ITF.*
> ...


 
Regarding the bolded part, I don't understand this reaction (although I've seen it before both towards the ITF and, more commonly, towards the Kukkiwon). 

If the instructor was the one ripping them off shouldn't they be upset at the instructor? As far as the ITF (or Kukkiwon in the case of people getting fake KKW dans) is concerned they weren't members in the first place. What they shoud do is take their instructor to small claims court to sue for breach of contract since they were paying for something they never got and get their money back.

Pax,

Chris


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2010)

just2kicku said:


> I'm not a TKDist, so I can only go by my own experience. In our art, I trained six and sometimes seven days a week for my first two years. It got me to purple belt. I was also roomies with my instructor and would get woke up all hours of the night for "old school" training in the living room.
> 
> I did have previous MA training and it still took me eight years to get my bb. And to this day, I still don't really know if I'm actually qualified! I do think that 10 months is a little quick, but it's not my school.
> 
> Any color the belt is still just as effective in holding your pants up!


 

We cam all agree it is never the color of the belt but one thing is for sure a BB should be able to try and defend one self from an attracker and if Tigerlove feels goos about that than a BB are they.


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## IcemanSK (May 2, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Regarding the bolded part, I don't understand this reaction (although I've seen it before both towards the ITF and, more commonly, towards the Kukkiwon).
> 
> If the instructor was the one ripping them off shouldn't they be upset at the instructor? As far as the ITF (or Kukkiwon in the case of people getting fake KKW dans) is concerned they weren't members in the first place. What they shoud do is take their instructor to small claims court to sue for breach of contract since they were paying for something they never got and get their money back.
> 
> ...



I was a member of the school Master Weiss is referring to. Yes, we were all really upset with the instructor. The statute of limitations is long over for small claims court. At the time, it was the farthest things from our minds. It's hard to explain why some of us were upset at the ITF: even though the ITF had nothing to do with him. The best way to say it is that a lot of anger was directed in a few directions. Most of it was directed squarely at the instructor. It's hard to be told, "he was fake, the real ITF is over here," & be willing to trust that that was the case. 

Some of us did go with Master Weiss. I didn't because I wanted to pursue other things at that time. After 16 years, the ITF hasn't been terribly damaged in the minds of those of us who went through it. The common thought among those I still speak to from the school is we wouldn't give the time of day to the instructor.


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## d1jinx (May 2, 2010)

IcemanSK said:


> I was a member of the school Master Weiss is referring to. Yes, we were all really upset with the instructor. The statute of limitations is long over for small claims court. At the time, it was the farthest things from our minds. It's hard to explain why some of us were upset at the ITF: even though the ITF had nothing to do with him. The best way to say it is that a lot of anger was directed in a few directions. Most of it was directed squarely at the instructor. It's hard to be told, "he was fake, the real ITF is over here," & be willing to trust that that was the case.
> 
> Some of us did go with Master Weiss. I didn't because I wanted to pursue other things at that time. After 16 years, the ITF hasn't been terribly damaged in the minds of those of us who went through it. The common thought among those I still speak to from the school is we wouldn't give the time of day to the instructor.


 

I too can relate to this all to familiar scenario.  One reason, I think that people are left with a bad taste in their mouth about an ORG,  is because while its not the orgs fault, nothing is done to penalizes these instructors when they are cuaght doing such things.  I know for a fact a REGISTERED/CERTIFIED/Whatever KKW guy who doesnt process his own students DANS but lets them think they are.  They Org should strip the rights and privilages from these individuals.   There should be a reporting system of these instructors, but thats kindof unrealistic and had to police.


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## chrispillertkd (May 3, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I too can relate to this all to familiar scenario. One reason, I think that people are left with a bad taste in their mouth about an ORG, is because while its not the orgs fault, nothing is done to penalizes these instructors when they are cuaght doing such things. I know for a fact a REGISTERED/CERTIFIED/Whatever KKW guy who doesnt process his own students DANS but lets them think they are. They Org should strip the rights and privilages from these individuals. There should be a reporting system of these instructors, but thats kindof unrealistic and had to police.


 
Hmm. I know of a case or two where a person who was a member of an organization was issuing bogus certs and one where a person was taking money and simply not getting the certs because he never processed the paperwork, just kept the money and said "Sorry things are so slow. Politics, you know." In each case the person in question got in quite a bit of trouble with the organization. 

But the situation that was brought up in this thread, if I'm reading it correctly, invovles a person who wasn't part of the ITF in the first place. Nothing they can do if they're not aware of what's going on in the first place and the only thing they can do if they are made aware is legal action since the instructor falls outside of any internal disciplinary action. It sounds like it was a bad situation as it was really a betrayal of trust and an utter lack of integrity on the part of the instructor. I feel bad for the students involved and hope they didn't let it influence their view of MA's in general.

Pax,

Chris


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## Bushi40 (May 9, 2010)

I am sorry to say, even if you trained seven days a week, 10 hours a day, you still should not make black belt ranking.  That is why it taks years to acheive black belt.  Your neurons and muscle fibers need time to build an electrical path, cordnation, timming, balance, motor control and much more.  Do a little research through the internet and see for your self.  If you have an *actual* fight or have to defend yourself, you will bee greatly disapointed, the martial arts is designed for protection.  Your instructor is not doing you justice.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Grand Master 
Gene perceval
In the arts since 1955


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## TigerLove (May 9, 2010)

Bushi40 said:


> I am sorry to say, even if you trained seven days a week, 10 hours a day, you still should not make black belt ranking.  That is why it taks years to acheive black belt.  Your neurons and muscle fibers need time to build an electrical path, cordnation, timming, balance, motor control and much more.  Do a little research through the internet and see for your self.  If you have an *actual* fight or have to defend yourself, you will bee greatly disapointed, the martial arts is designed for protection.  Your instructor is not doing you justice.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> 
> Grand Master
> Gene perceval
> In the arts since 1955



I have some thoughts on that as you can see in this thread of mine.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84288

About instructor and $$, i don't pay fee at all. All i payed is certificate and member card, all together 65$. 

I was in few actual, real street fights, and i very sucessfully used my martial arts training to defend myself.

The time to build muscle memory, motorical skills and other stuff is not the same for every person - and especially not for the person who trained gymnastics and similar since litlle.


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## terryl965 (May 9, 2010)

Tigerlove you are what you believe you are and people have the right to believe what they believe. Believing one way ot the other does not effect anybody but you, so I say to everyone if Tigerlove is happy with everything than who are we to say it is wrong?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 9, 2010)

Personally through the years many arts/systems, instuctors, people have devalued the black belt so much that frankly it is upseting at times. Maybe I come from the background that it should be an incredibly high degree of skill and execution of movement, coupled with knowledge and of course wisdom. Maybe I believe that it should have extensive meaning that not everyone should be able to attain it. Hey, maybe that is just me. I personally think five years is a good starting point to work from but have no problem extending it to ten if someone needs the extra time. I also have no problem extending it down some when one individuals previous skill sets & natural apptitude warrant it. Still in the end it should be some thing that is precious and not just given away to anyone. *Quality over quantity!* Also if you do not continue to train then forget about calling yourself a blackbelt, martial artist or whatever. If you do not continue to train then you were a -insert here- but are most definitely not now! Just my 02 as harsh or not harsh as you might view it.


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## Earl Weiss (May 9, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> I have some thoughts on that as you can see in this thread of mine.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84288
> 
> ...


 
Which leads me again to question which ITF since unless your country has "Third world status" which qualifies for reduced rates $65.00 seems on the low side. 

If we knew which ITF we could research the fee structiure further. what was the dan # on the certificate?


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## terryl965 (May 9, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Which leads me again to question which ITF since unless your country has "Third world status" which qualifies for reduced rates $65.00 seems on the low side.
> 
> If we knew which ITF we could research the fee structiure further. what was the dan # on the certificate?


 
You are never going to get that info., remember that has already been determined.


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