# Why is this done?



## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2020)

I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due. This particular school claims that these techniques come from one of their kata, and it's been translated for the modern day. In actuality, they're techniques that come from Bjj, and while I have some issue with how those techniques are presented (the stuff he's doing after losing the back mount is.... interesting. Like seriously, just hook your legs to avoid getting tossed off), the execution wasn't awful in general. 

I don't understand why such schools simply can't say that they went to a Bjj or MMA gym and learned ground fighting. Do they think that their methods would be looked down on if they incorporated a "sport" into their system? Again, I'm happy that they have chosen to teach their students ground fighting, I just don't understand why they need to hide where they're getting these techniques from.


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## Buka (Oct 2, 2020)

In some cases, I think they feel threatened. 

It’s such an easy fix, though, if you have a viable dojo. Just bring in a jits guy to teach everyone basics. Ten years down the line you’ll be glad you did.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> In some cases, I think they feel threatened.
> 
> It’s such an easy fix, though, if you have a viable dojo. Just bring in a jits guy to teach everyone basics. Ten years down the line you’ll be glad you did.



Quick question Buka; the sequence that begins at around the 6 minute mark.... Have you ever seen anything like that before? I would imagine escaping from the back mount (by somehow flinging him off my back) and having my opponent's back exposed to me would be a dream come true. Yet somehow, this guy is able to grapple against someone behind him.


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## Buka (Oct 2, 2020)

By the way, Hanson, nice to see you again.

As for your question, maybe they haven’t picked up on getting their hooks in yet. Maybe that will come in his next months “see, we grapple, too” lesson.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> By the way, Hanson, nice to see you again.



Thank you! Good to see you again too. 

And I agree with your earlier post; I think it's fear as well.



> As for your question, maybe they haven’t picked up on getting their hooks in yet. Maybe that will come in his next months “see, we grapple, too” lesson.



LoL! Yeah, that entire sequence was really...... interesting to say the least.


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## Buka (Oct 2, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Thank you! Good to see you again too.
> 
> And I agree with your earlier post; I think
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Maybe it’s a good thing that they’re at least trying. And maybe years down the road it will develop nicely. And maybe not.

When I think of some of the things I taught in the nineteen seventies I want to hide in shame. But, hey, my instructor taught me those techniques, there’s no way they couldn’t be anything other than the balls.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> By the way, Hanson, nice to see you again.
> 
> As for your question, maybe they haven’t picked up on getting their hooks in yet. Maybe that will come in his next months “see, we grapple, too” lesson.


I love this. They will learn what's lost in their kata at approximately the same rate a BJJ school teaches new students.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 2, 2020)

Sometimes, not necessarily in this case, people do not understand the potential depth that exists in their own TMA, so look elsewhere for the "cool stuff," or things that incorporate what they perceive as lacking in their syle.  I found American kenpo cool, having techniques not found in my first style.  But after getting deeper into my first traditional style, more advanced, and getting a strong understanding of what my katas really contained, I found a lot of those "missing" concepts and techniques!  Who knew?


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Quick question Buka; the sequence that begins at around the 6 minute mark.... Have you ever seen anything like that before? I would imagine escaping from the back mount (by somehow flinging him off my back) and having my opponent's back exposed to me would be a dream come true. Yet somehow, this guy is able to grapple against someone behind him.



It would work if both people couldn't grapple.

Which in that case you have a whole room full of people who can't.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due. This particular school claims that these techniques come from one of their kata, and it's been translated for the modern day. In actuality, they're techniques that come from Bjj, and while I have some issue with how those techniques are presented (the stuff he's doing after losing the back mount is.... interesting. Like seriously, just hook your legs to avoid getting tossed off), the execution wasn't awful in general.
> 
> I don't understand why such schools simply can't say that they went to a Bjj or MMA gym and learned ground fighting. Do they think that their methods would be looked down on if they incorporated a "sport" into their system? Again, I'm happy that they have chosen to teach their students ground fighting, I just don't understand why they need to hide where they're getting these techniques from.


I would assume that's where it came from, though I suppose it's possible someone somewhere else in the organization brought the stuff in and handed them that backstory. I prefer to just tell people I brought some ground work from Judo (didn't like what NGA had) and supplemented with some BJJ cross-training....and that if they want more serious ground training, they should train at a BJJ school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> Maybe it’s a good thing that they’re at least trying. And maybe years down the road it will develop nicely. And maybe not.
> 
> When I think of some of the things I taught in the nineteen seventies I want to hide in shame. But, hey, my instructor taught me those techniques, there’s no way they couldn’t be anything other than the balls.


I think it's good...if they let folks have a chance to fail and improve on the technique. It doesn't take much to get the basics down if folks have someplace to start and actually try stuff against each other.


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## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2020)

It happens in karate too.  People reverse engineer ground escape bunkai for Naihanchi kata.  I just say "Ok, then" and move on.  I have my doubts that the people that came up with Naihanchi practiced ne-waza in the same sense that a BJJ or judo player do, but it's not that important to me.  If they want to teach ground escapes within the kata paradigm, that's fine with me.  I just hope it is good.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 2, 2020)

When someone says that certain technique exists in his system, you should ask him the following questions:

How to

- develop it?
- enhance it?
- polish it?
- test it?
- counter it?
- set it up?
- use it to set up other techniques?

When a technique truly exists in your system, you should have no problem to answer those questions.


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## Buka (Oct 2, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Sometimes, not necessarily in this case, people do not understand the potential depth that exists in their own TMA, so look elsewhere for the "cool stuff," or things that incorporate what they perceive as lacking in their syle.  I found American kenpo cool, having techniques not found in my first style.  But after getting deeper into my first traditional style, more advanced, and getting a strong understanding of what my katas really contained, I found a lot of those "missing" concepts and techniques!  Who knew?



I remember being in the beginners class back in the day. I remember staying every single night to watch the advanced class. I remember the feeling of “ I can’t wait!”

When I started teaching on a full time basis, I always tried to show a little of what was coming to the beginners, hoping they would have the same feeling I did.  Kind of like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs. Or maybe trying to get them hooked like I had been hooked.

Probably didn't work with many. Hopefully a few, though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> It happens in karate too.  People reverse engineer ground escape bunkai for Naihanchi kata.  I just say "Ok, then" and move on.  I have my doubts that the people that came up with Naihanchi practiced ne-waza in the same sense that a BJJ or judo player do, but it's not that important to me.  If they want to teach ground escapes within the kata paradigm, that's fine with me.  I just hope it is good.


I often look at this kind of stuff and think, "Why does it have to be in there? If you didn't know it was there, then why not just teach what you've just learned?" I mean, I'm okay if they want to point to those movements in the kata and show how that reinforces the movement principles involved. But does it really matter whether that specific movement in kata "incluces" that technique? It seems contrived, and with too much focus on the form.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> I remember being in the beginners class back in the day. I remember staying every single night to watch the advanced class. I remember the feeling of “ I can’t wait!”
> 
> When I started teaching on a full time basis, I always tried to show a little of what was coming to the beginners, hoping they would have the same feeling I did.  Kind of like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs. Or maybe trying to get them hooked like I had been hooked.
> 
> Probably didn't work with many. Hopefully a few, though.


It only takes a few.


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## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It seems contrived, and with too much focus on the form.



Yeah, I agree, it's hokey.  With that said, the people I have seen doing this are very clear that they are reverse-engineering.  They don't claim it was passed down to them from an unbroken lineage dating back 150 years, yada-yada.


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## Bee Brian (Oct 2, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due. This particular school claims that these techniques come from one of their kata, and it's been translated for the modern day. In actuality, they're techniques that come from Bjj, and while I have some issue with how those techniques are presented (the stuff he's doing after losing the back mount is.... interesting. Like seriously, just hook your legs to avoid getting tossed off), the execution wasn't awful in general.
> 
> I don't understand why such schools simply can't say that they went to a Bjj or MMA gym and learned ground fighting. Do they think that their methods would be looked down on if they incorporated a "sport" into their system? Again, I'm happy that they have chosen to teach their students ground fighting, I just don't understand why they need to hide where they're getting these techniques from.



I haven't watched the video yet but I read your post.

It's a business. They sometimes have to false-advertise. That's just how businesses are.

Me, for example, I am doing my own weightlifting program that I invented "borrowing" ideas from Bulgarian weightlifters. Although I will, in fact, mention my source of inspiration (Bulgarian weightlifters), it won't stop me from naming my own program with a name that I see fit *that would make me look good.* The ends justify the means.


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## Buka (Oct 2, 2020)

Bee Brian said:


> I haven't watched the video yet but I read your post.
> 
> It's a business. They sometimes have to false-advertise. That's just how businesses are.
> 
> Me, for example, I am doing my own weightlifting program that I invented "borrowing" ideas from Bulgarian weightlifters. Although I will, in fact, mention my source of inspiration (Bulgarian weightlifters), it won't stop me from naming my own program with a name that I see fit *that would make me look good.* The ends justify the means.



Bulgarian weightlifters....

In 78 me and a few other fools spent a few months in Hawaii. We were working on Waikiki as pedicab drivers - peddle a bike attached to a cool carriage and drive tourists around for a tour or to bar hop - and charge outrageous fees - they knew the price beforehand, they didn't care.

One time Wide World of Sports was having a televised world strongest man thing going one. My buddy was driving two Bulgarian weightlifters from bar to bar. They barely fit in the carriage. When they got off at one bar, one of them grabbed the handlebars of the bike and just bent them into a pretzel. Tipped my buddy big, though.

Every time I hear the term Bulgarian weightlifter - my mind goes to that pretzel.


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

I would say because ground techniques are not exclusive to BJJ nor MMA. There are several places they can come from.

I remember at 15 yrs old in 84 or 85, we were doing grappling techniques in the Karate school, long before BJJ was even widely known and you will see ground training in Doshinkan as well to this day. It is also one of the things we still cover.

I will say though, we don't train ourselves to get knotted up...it is primarily escape and strike your why out and get back up.


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## Bee Brian (Oct 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> Bulgarian weightlifters....
> 
> In 78 me and a few other fools spent a few months in Hawaii. We were working on Waikiki as pedicab drivers - peddle a bike attached to a cool carriage and drive tourists around for a tour or to bar hop - and charge outrageous fees - they knew the price beforehand, they didn't care.
> 
> ...



So THAT'S your true fantasy fight? Being dominated by strong men!

I'm joking of course. <insertappropriateemoji>


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## Buka (Oct 2, 2020)

Bee Brian said:


> So THAT'S your true fantasy fight? Being dominated by strong men!
> 
> I'm joking of course. <insertappropriateemoji>



Lol!

You're a very strong man, right?

Anytime you're ready, kid. But please pack a lunch. Might take you all day.


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

Bee Brian said:


> So THAT'S your true fantasy fight? Being dominated by strong men!


Haha..that's great.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Bee Brian said:


> So THAT'S your true fantasy fight? Being dominated by strong men!
> 
> I'm joking of course. <insertappropriateemoji>



That is literally the definition of martial arts.

You watch never back down and think it is all parties highlight reels and hot girls. But the reality is some sweaty bloke sitting on you for five minutes.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Maybe it’s a good thing that they’re at least trying. And maybe years down the road it will develop nicely. And maybe not.

When I think of some of the things I taught in the nineteen seventies I want to hide in shame. But, hey, my instructor taught me those techniques, there’s no way they couldn’t be anything other than the balls.[/QUOTE]

Like that single arm guard pass. I remember that being the rage in the 90s.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Maybe it’s a good thing that they’re at least trying. And maybe years down the road it will develop nicely. And maybe not.
> 
> When I think of some of the things I taught in the nineteen seventies I want to hide in shame. But, hey, my instructor taught me those techniques, there’s no way they couldn’t be anything other than the balls.
> 
> Like that single arm guard pass. I remember that being the rage in the 90s.


I was shown that one in a seminar by Royce Gracie about 20 years ago. It can work - if you know how to do all the subtle details perfectly and your opponent doesn’t know how to take advantage of it.  I don’t think I’ve seen anyone teach it for at least 15 years.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I was shown that one in a seminar by Royce Gracie about 20 years ago. It can work - if you know how to do all the subtle details perfectly and your opponent doesn’t know how to take advantage of it.  I don’t think I’ve seen anyone teach it for at least 15 years.



It is a weird one because you could do it to entire rooms full of people until they learn the trick to it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2020)

Bee Brian said:


> I haven't watched the video yet but I read your post.
> 
> It's a business. They sometimes have to false-advertise. That's just how businesses are.



Uh, the core aspect of business isn’t to lie to your consumers. It’s also pretty disingenuous to tell impressionable people that they’re learning ancient Ninja arts, when they’re in fact learning a watered down version of a Brazilian combat sport. It’s honestly one of the worst aspects of martial arts instruction.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> I would say because ground techniques are not exclusive to BJJ nor MMA. There are several places they can come from.



I’d be very curious what ancient Koryu from Japan contained guard play and triangle chokes. Especially considering that that terminology was being used instead of Japanese names for those techniques.



> I remember at 15 yrs old in 84 or 85, we were doing grappling techniques in the Karate school, long before BJJ was even widely known and you will see ground training in Doshinkan as well to this day. It is also one of the things we still cover.
> 
> I will say though, we don't train ourselves to get knotted up...it is primarily escape and strike your why out and get back up.



I’d be interested in seeing this karate based ground fighting you’re talking about.

Also in Bjj we don’t train get ourselves knotted up either....


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I’d be very curious what ancient Koryu from Japan contained guard play and triangle chokes. Especially considering that that terminology was being used instead of Japanese names for those techniques.


I think the ancient part throws me off, Karate is not really ancient.



Hanzou said:


> I’d be interested in seeing this karate based ground fighting you’re talking about.



Join a Doshinkan dojo...you will see it there.


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

It boggles my mind that people think BJJ is the authority on ground fighting. 

It's a good sport for sure, but it's not an authority, and it was taken from another art and modified and tested under rule set, not useless but not even a cornerstone of ground fighting. IMO


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> It boggles my mind that people think BJJ is the authority on ground fighting.
> 
> It's a good sport for sure, but it's not an authority, and it was taken from another art and modified and tested under rule set, not useless but not even a cornerstone of ground fighting. IMO



So no examples of this”karate-based ground fighting“ you’re talking about? Okay.

What martial art would you say is more of an authority on ground fighting than Bjj? I’m not seeing TMAs like this school using concepts from some other form of ground based combat.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> It boggles my mind that people think BJJ is the authority on ground fighting.
> 
> It's a good sport for sure, but it's not an authority, and it was taken from another art and modified and tested under rule set, not useless but not even a cornerstone of ground fighting. IMO



Not a lot of systems beating BJJ on the ground under any conditions anywhere. And those systems that do tend to have pretty competent BJJ. So your catch or sub wrestlers will be playing BJJ with BJJ guys.

And of course now the cornerstone of modern military hand to hand in America under the different systems.

And a system that conceptually travels from system to system. So that a soldiers doing modern army combatives could go to a MMA school with his BJJ skills and continue to develop rather than having to restart under some sort of different method.

So cornerstone would be a very accurate description.

So You can literally take a buy guy and a wrestling MMA guy and they can roll without having to fart around defining concepts.






Or you can give those concepts to police or military and they can transport them directly over to real world situations.






Or even take guys with no real experience, virtually drag them off the street and use these concepts to dominate them.






And you can transport that to navy seals who can then go back on the mat and murder normal people.







And so. When you can see the same results. And when you can show the same concepts creating the same conclusion. You can pretty confidently assume that the conclusions will be consistent regardless of the person or the situation. 2+2=4 Because maths works.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2020)

Thank you Drop Bear.

The most disappointing thing about this topic is that the Bjj/sub grappling community is always hungry for new techniques and methods. So my attitude towards this ninja school isn’t fear that a new grappling system would supplant Bjj, it’s disappointment that these guys aren’t bringing anything new to the table, and not crediting the source of their techniques. I would LOVE to see a competent ground fighting system from pre-Meiji Japan. However, for some reason we keep getting a watered down version of Bjj.

Also for some reason it’s almost always the “Ninjas” doing it.


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## KOKarate (Oct 3, 2020)

Don’t know about them but not everyone does. Jeff speakman who adapted his system of Kenpo to include ground fighting recently did a interview with Scott Adkins and he said how because he wanted to understand it he trained at a school for 5 years and took off his 4th or 5th dan and put on a white belt for bjj


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## drop bear (Oct 3, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Don’t know about them but not everyone does. Jeff speakman who adapted his system of Kenpo to include ground fighting recently did a interview with Scott Adkins and he said how because he wanted to understand it he trained at a school for 5 years and took off his 4th or 5th dan and put on a white belt for bjj



Yeah. UFC fighters do it as well.

Although then we call them sand baggers.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Join a Doshinkan dojo...you will see it there.



Would this be an example of Doshinkan Kata?






Also is it true that there is no sparring allowed?

No thanks.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Don’t know about them but not everyone does. Jeff speakman who adapted his system of Kenpo to include ground fighting recently did a interview with Scott Adkins and he said how because he wanted to understand it he trained at a school for 5 years and took off his 4th or 5th dan and put on a white belt for bjj



I was actually going to bring up Speakman. Yeah, he did it the right way, and his students benefitted from it. He got a lot of crap for doing it from people within his community too, which always confused me.


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## Bee Brian (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Would this be an example of Doshinkan Kata?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_Makes a straight face.
_
Bro, what's wrong with that video? It's a true grand master who's... Pfffffftt... BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!


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## KOKarate (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I was actually going to bring up Speakman. Yeah, he did it the right way, and his students benefitted from it. He got a lot of crap for doing it from people within his community too, which always confused me.


Simply because they’re idiots stuck in the past saying “that’s now what Ed Parker did” and frankly that’s bs. Yeah Ed Parker didn’t put ground fighting in but he died in 1990 3 years before it became big and one of Ed Parker’s big things about kenpo was that it always should be evolving with the times. If he was alive today kenpo would be completely different and his big wish was that his style didn’t get traditionalised But sadly it did and no one had the balls to change it up.the only one who really has done is speakman and he has also refused to be awarded ranks he’s always insisted on getting on the floor and testing for it. Now sure yeah it’s unlikely anyone would ever fail him but at least he stepped up and actually took part in the test which is more than most would


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Bee Brian said:


> _Makes a straight face.
> _
> Bro, what's wrong with that video? It's a true grand master who's... Pfffffftt... BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!



If you’re a karate master, your kata should be crisp as hell. A master in karate should have kata that looks like this;






And yes, I love Rika Usami.


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## Bee Brian (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If you’re a karate master, your kata should be crisp as hell. A master in karate should have kata that looks like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bro, funny coincidence but I've seen that video before twice. It got recommended to me by YouTube.

Even an ignorant layman like me can clearly see she's not an ordinary karateka.

I also like the Wu Dan Kung Fu people. Rika is like stone, the Wu Dan folks are like water.

Shaolin monks are more like athletes to me than whatever you call Rika and others. They're a different breed.


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## Bee Brian (Oct 3, 2020)

Wudang, apparently. Misspelt.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Bee Brian said:


> Bro, funny coincidence but I've seen that video before twice. It got recommended to me by YouTube.
> 
> Even an ignorant layman like me can clearly see she's not an ordinary karateka.
> 
> ...



True, Rika is exceptional, but again if you’re a grandmaster in karate, your kata should be comparable.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 3, 2020)

It might come from there kata, but have been realised doing BJJ.    conclsuions that are the same just without any direct infleunce on each other are pretty common for limited things like fighting.      That and i think they may have been influced by Jujutsu and japanese martial arts as well.     So its either mutually exclusive, or a little bit of influence.  Or a little bit of both.   (karate has sort of been slightly screwed when it got imported to japan)


There was a video on happy life martial arts where he said he was doing BJJ and went "hang on this looks like X kata".     So im all for backing it exists in kata, but down to its deletion in practise or them forgetting, they only realise how to do it by doing another martial art.


Edit: that or they are frauds and made the whole thing up.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> It might come from there kata, but have been realised doing BJJ.    conclsuions that are the same just without any direct infleunce on each other are pretty common for limited things like fighting.      That and i think they may have been influced by Jujutsu and japanese martial arts as well.     So its either mutually exclusive, or a little bit of influence.  Or a little bit of both.   (karate has sort of been slightly screwed when it got imported to japan)
> 
> 
> There was a video on happy life martial arts where he said he was doing BJJ and went "hang on this looks like X kata".     So im all for backing it exists in kata, but down to its deletion in practise or them forgetting, they only realise how to do it by doing another martial art.
> ...



I would need to see that kata, because it's rather hard to believe that you can pull something like the Guard system from a kata. The Guard system comes from experimentation and fighting application. It's also an invention of Brazilians, since it doesn't really exist in Asian martial arts.

It's also doubtful that Ninjas in medieval Japan needed to know how to pass a Guard.


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## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Not a lot of systems beating BJJ on the ground under any conditions anywhere. And those systems that do tend to have pretty competent BJJ. So your catch or sub wrestlers will be playing BJJ with BJJ guys.
> 
> And of course now the cornerstone of modern military hand to hand in America under the different systems.
> 
> ...


All sport, you can say the set about American wrestling, which usually dominates BJJ. This has been shown countless times...why not just train that...oh wait, that's a Jr. and High school activity, people have for decades, long before BJJ  was the flavor of the month.

But really, I am not overly interested in sport, arts, they are limited and incomplete.


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## skribs (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due. This particular school claims that these techniques come from one of their kata, and it's been translated for the modern day. In actuality, they're techniques that come from Bjj, and while I have some issue with how those techniques are presented (the stuff he's doing after losing the back mount is.... interesting. Like seriously, just hook your legs to avoid getting tossed off), the execution wasn't awful in general.
> 
> I don't understand why such schools simply can't say that they went to a Bjj or MMA gym and learned ground fighting. Do they think that their methods would be looked down on if they incorporated a "sport" into their system? Again, I'm happy that they have chosen to teach their students ground fighting, I just don't understand why they need to hide where they're getting these techniques from.



This is one of the issues I have with the concept of Bunkai.  Granted, I haven't trained Karate, so I don't have first-hand experience.  But I've trained Taekwondo, which uses similar forms, and I've tried to find these answers for myself.  In my experience, trying to connect things to the kata becomes more of an exercise in how far can you stretch the kata to meet whatever technique you're talking about, or else it becomes confirmation bias that some like motions teach each other.

Let's look at my second assertation first, and I'll come back to the first one in a minute.  From what I can tell, there's a disconnect between how Bunkai is supposed to work, and how it actually works.  There's this theory that you learn something in a form, and it teaches you all of these other things.  However, people rarely come to learn those other things on their own through training the form.  More often, it goes like this:

You learn the form
You learn a technique that has some similar movements and/or positions as a technique from the form
Your brain sees a pattern and connects it to the form
Let's look at math as an example.  Most math (if not all) can be traced back to addition in some way, shape, or form.

Addition is addition
Subtraction is addition of a negative number
Multiplication is fast repetitions of addition
Division is multiplication of a fraction or decimel, therefore fast repetitions of the addition of fractions or decimels
Exponents are fast repetitions of multiplication, and there fore are fast repetitions of fast repetitions of addition
It goes on, but you see the point.  Pretty much every concept can be traced to addition.  Does that mean that addition teaches everything else?  Does that mean that addition contains everything you need to learn?  No.  You need to know negative numbers to apply subtraction in this way.  You need to know fractions and/or decimals to apply division in this way.  We actually do learn multiplication this way, but we need to learn multiplication before we can move on to exponents.

To me, the "aha" moment when you learn about negative numbers, and then realize that addition is the subtraction of negative numbers, is similar to bunkai.  You learned subtraction a long time ago using a different process.  Now it makes sense in a different way.  The same is true of forms.  You learn a punch in a form, and later learn it's actually a throw (if you take great liberties with how it's used in the form).  But would you have ever learned the throw if it wasn't specifically taught to you?  Is knowing the form a prerequisite to learning the throw?  Does the form make the throw easier to learn?  I'd say the answer to the first two questions is "no", and the third is "maybe."  The form does give you some muscle memory in some similar movements.  But does it teach the throw?

Now let's circle back to the first issue.  The mental gymnastics that sometimes happen.  With enough leaps of logic, I can probably make any technique in a form fit any other technique in martial arts.  For example:

A front kick to the head is teaching the rear-naked choke, because if you attack someone from behind, you want to front kick to the knee to buckle it and make their upper body easier for you to control.
A knife-hand block is teach you how to do an armbar, because after you block, you can grab their hand, apply a hip toss, and then follow them down and transition into an armbar
This is actually not far from some of the "application" videos I've seen.  You take a technique from the form and add *a whole lot* to it in order to make it practical.  In that sense, the forms kind of become like a poetry exercise where you have the first letter of every line, and you have to write the poem based on that.  And then you start to get creative with the spelling, because you want to talk about writing and the first letter is an R.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Would this be an example of Doshinkan Kata?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is funny, it shows your lack of knowledge concerning the arts. Yeah I seen this video before amd I know who that gentleman is. So did a lot of the founders of most Karate systems..and many respected his ability. His brother, they guy that created Doshinkan, was a very respected fighter.

But, it's not my system...I just know they have ground game.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> All sport, you can say the set about American wrestling, which usually dominates BJJ. This has been shown countless times...why not just train that...oh wait, that's a Jr. and High school activity, people have for decades, long before BJJ  was the flavor of the month.
> 
> But really, I am not overly interested in sport, arts, they are limited and incomplete.



I’d very much like to see where wrestling “dominated” Bjj countless times. 

You clearly didn’t read anything DB posted. At this point in the evolution of submission grappling, Bjj and wrestling are intertwined. Not because one dominated the other, but because HS and college wrestlers had nowhere to go after their scholastic careers were over and pretty much flooded Bjj gyms in order to find opportunities in coaching, instruction, and as a pathway into MMA. Bjj gyms in turn were receptive to what wrestling had to offer and actually worked wrestling concepts into the system. No-gi Bjj pretty much came from wrestlers entering the sport and adding their input.

I don’t see what something being a “sport” has to do with anything. Are you trying to say that a Martial sport is less effective than a martial art? I thought we settled this nonsense 30 years ago.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

But it's an old argument, usually dominates by people who have never even stepped foot in a non sport school. One I don't really care to argue.

Still boggles my mind that people believe that ground fighting began with a guy who had incomplete training in a TMA.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> This is funny, it shows your lack of knowledge concerning the arts.




Oh the *irony*....



> Yeah I seen this video before amd I know who that gentleman is. So did a lot of the founders of most Karate systems..and many respected his ability. His brother, they guy that created Doshinkan, was a very respected fighter.



Oh was he? Where can we see some examples of his fights?




> But, it's not my system...I just know they have ground game.



You said Doshinkan, and that is Doshinkan. Once again, feel free to provide a counter example showcasing your particular system, especially the ground fighting aspect.

And btw, Judo is not a TMA.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I’d very much like to see where wrestling “dominated” Bjj countless times.
> 
> You clearly didn’t read anything DB posted. At this point in the evolution of submission grappling, Bjj and wrestling are intertwined. Not because one dominated the other, but because HS and college wrestlers had nowhere to go after their scholastic careers were over and pretty much flooded Bjj gyms in order to find opportunities in coaching, instruction, and as a pathway into MMA. Bjj gyms in turn were receptive to what wrestling had to offer and actually worked wrestling concepts into the system. No-gi Bjj pretty much came from wrestlers entering the sport and adding their input.
> 
> I don’t see what something being a “sport” has to do with anything. Are you trying to say that a Martial sport is less effective than a martial art? I thought we settled this nonsense 30 years ago.


So because of wrestling, BJJ became better, so really BJJ is just a sales pitch for American wrestling...got it.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> So because of wrestling, BJJ became better, so really BJJ is just a sales pitch for American wrestling...got it.



Your opening assertion doesn’t work with your conclusion. Bjj has always been a sponge for other grappling forms, hence is why it has remained so dominant for so many years. Also given Bjjs proximity to MMA and it’s Vale Tudo roots, wrestling supplanting the tachiwaza of Judo within Bjj was a forgone conclusion. Again, if you actually read DBs post, you would better understand this. It’s why we still call it Bjj and not Brazilian Wrestling. As I’ve said many times; MMA keeps Bjj honest And effective, and doesn’t allow it to veer off into TMA territory (Despite the best efforts of certain people within the Bjj community).

Still no examples of your version of Doshinkan karate? How disappointing.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

Look, I watched the early fights of UFC 1or 2 live, it didn't take long to show that BJJ wasn't a dominating art, once other ground arts entered the ring. That's just the facts. You can not say that it's a cornerstone to ground fighting that's just bs


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Look, I watched the early fights of UFC 1or 2 live, it didn't take long to show that BJJ wasn't a dominating art, once other ground arts entered the ring. That's just the facts. You can not say that it's a cornerstone to ground fighting that's just bs



You mean the UFC1 and 2 where a Bjj exponent one both handily?

I think we've reached the point where you're clearly trolling.


----------



## Bee Brian (Oct 3, 2020)

I'll give you all a new Traditional Martial Art. I call it Chad Pugilism, named after my Final Fantasy 14 character, Chad Thundermember.

The secret behind the effectiveness of my traditional art is that we build muscles as well as having non-traditional boxing techniques.

For only fifty dollars, I'll send you a DVD of me demonstrating how to do a tricep extension!


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> This is one of the issues I have with the concept of Bunkai.  Granted, I haven't trained Karate, so I don't have first-hand experience.  But I've trained Taekwondo, which uses similar forms, and I've tried to find these answers for myself.  In my experience, trying to connect things to the kata becomes more of an exercise in how far can you stretch the kata to meet whatever technique you're talking about, or else it becomes confirmation bias that some like motions teach each other.
> 
> Let's look at my second assertation first, and I'll come back to the first one in a minute.  From what I can tell, there's a disconnect between how Bunkai is supposed to work, and how it actually works.  There's this theory that you learn something in a form, and it teaches you all of these other things.  However, people rarely come to learn those other things on their own through training the form.  More often, it goes like this:
> 
> ...



As a former karate exponent (Shotokan), I've come to the conclusion that Bunkai is bunk in general. In my view kata as its generally taught in karate/Kung fu/whatever schools are filler in order to prop up the ranking system of many martial arts. I would actually argue that non-kata based MAs show better overall outcomes than kata-based MAs.

That said, I do think kata have value, mainly in the form of fitness or a type of moving meditation. However, students shouldn't be led to believe that their kata holds some sort of secret knowledge waiting to be unlocked, or that consistent kata practice will make them better fighters overall. You only become better at fighting by actually fighting.

Circling back to the point; Kata can be used to peddle nonsense like having hidden Bjj techniques inside traditional martial arts. This misinformation leads to people like Greywalker actually believing his mysterious karate style contained legitimate ground fighting techniques.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> You mean the UFC1 and 2 where a Bjj exponent one both handily?
> 
> I think we've reached the point where you're clearly trolling.


Obviously your grasping, I said watched 1 or 2 live, not UFC 1&2...but the facts show that once other styles of ground fighting entered the UFC,  BJJ was no where near dominating.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Obviously your grasping, I said watched 1 or 2 live, not UFC 1&2...but the facts show that once other styles of ground fighting entered the UFC,  BJJ was no where near dominating.



I suppose you missed the fact that after the early UFCs, nearly every fighter who stepped into the octagon was trained in Bjj. Not much has changed in almost 30 years.

Think long and hard about why that is the case.


----------



## skribs (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> As a former karate exponent (Shotokan), I've come to the conclusion that Bunkai is bunk in general. In my view kata as its generally taught in karate/Kung fu/whatever schools are filler in order to prop up the ranking system of many martial arts. I would actually argue that non-kata based MAs show better overall outcomes than kata-based MAs.
> 
> That said, I do think kata have value, mainly in the form of fitness or a type of moving meditation. However, students shouldn't be led to believe that their kata holds some sort of secret knowledge waiting to be unlocked, or that consistent kata practice will make them better fighters overall. You only become better at fighting by actually fighting.
> 
> Circling back to the point; Kata can be used to peddle nonsense like having hidden Bjj techniques inside traditional martial arts. This misinformation leads to people like Greywalker actually believing his mysterious karate style contained legitimate ground fighting techniques.



I think there's slightly more benefit that fitness and moving meditation.  I think they work out muscles that are used in the techniques, that you wouldn't work out through a normal workout regimen.  But...the timing is off, the techniques are often stylized or over-exaggerated, and in order to be practical there's more you need to know about them to make it work.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I suppose you missed the fact that after the early UFCs, nearly every fighter who stepped into the octagon was trained in Bjj. Not much has changed in almost 30 years.
> 
> Think long and hard about why that is the case.


Yes the flavor has lasted a while. A lot of suckers...but that is sport for you.

Point fighting has lasted just as long. If not longer...it must be legitimate as well.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> In my experience, trying to connect things to the kata becomes more of an exercise in how far can you stretch the kata to meet whatever technique you're talking about



This is very true, as I have seen in several YouTube videos on bunkai.  IMO, this somewhat backwards thinking. _You should fit the bunkai to match the_ _kata, not "stretch" the kata to make it fit whatever bunkai you have in mind_.  I've posted this before in other past threads.  You shouldn't have to add a whole lot or otherwise significantly change the kata to make a bunkai work.  

If you want to show some new, personal interpretation of a bunkai, create a new kata - don't mangle the original kata just to fit your personal agenda  (seeing throws or wrist locks in every move.)  But if you understand the principles of kata, you will see that you have several good variants of application (including takedowns, breaks and locks, and even simple punches) within it that work quite effectively, without having to reinvent the kata.


QUOTE="skribs, post: 2013960, member: 31615"]You learn a punch in a form, and later learn it's actually a throw (if you take great liberties with how it's used in the form). But would you have ever learned the throw if it wasn't specifically taught to you? Is knowing the form a prerequisite to learning the throw? Does the form make the throw easier to learn?[/QUOTE]

This is also a little backwards, but a very good question.  In your example, no, your would *not* have learned the throw from the kata.  In the original Okinawan training, you would have _learned the throw first_, then _practiced_ it in the kata.  In other words, the bunkai was primary and the kata, secondary (being a training aid).  But this got flipped as karate became more stylized and made safer for kids/general public, with kata being done for its own sake, concentrating on form rather the intended function.

While I may know kata, your math examples, though interesting, had my head spinning!!  Haha.


----------



## skribs (Oct 3, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> _You should fit the bunkai to match the_ _kata, not "stretch" the kata to make it fit whatever bunkai you have in mind_.



The funny thing is, there's often other movements in the kata that fit the "application" better.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> I think there's slightly more benefit that fitness and moving meditation.  I think they work out muscles that are used in the techniques, that you wouldn't work out through a normal workout regimen.  But...the timing is off, the techniques are often stylized or over-exaggerated, and in order to be practical there's more you need to know about them to make it work.



"Working out the muscles used for techniques" would qualify as fitness. The additional thing you would need to learn to make those techniques work is actual fighting.

For example;






There isn't much martial benefit in that practice.


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## Buka (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If you’re a karate master, your kata should be crisp as hell. A master in karate should have kata that looks like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I do, too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2020)

Bee Brian said:


> I haven't watched the video yet but I read your post.
> 
> It's a business. They sometimes have to false-advertise. That's just how businesses are.
> 
> Me, for example, I am doing my own weightlifting program that I invented "borrowing" ideas from Bulgarian weightlifters. Although I will, in fact, mention my source of inspiration (Bulgarian weightlifters), it won't stop me from naming my own program with a name that I see fit *that would make me look good.* The ends justify the means.


That's not the same as claiming something came from inside a style when it didn't, though. There's nothing at all wrong with giving your system (MA or weightlifting) its own name to differentiate it from other systems, even if you didn't invent it from whole cloth. Nobody has done that for a very long time, unless they were too arrogant to try to learn from others.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I’d be very curious what ancient Koryu from Japan contained guard play and triangle chokes. Especially considering that that terminology was being used instead of Japanese names for those techniques.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The difference in terminology could reasonably be a recent adoption. As to the rest, I tend to share your opinion.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Buka said:


> View attachment 23191
> Yeah, I do, too.










gpseymour said:


> The difference in terminology could reasonably be a recent adoption. As to the rest, I tend to share your opinion.



Nah, they're using Bjj and claiming that they pulled it from an ancient Ninja kata.

I think a better question at this point is given how some traditionalist view ground fighting as something you shouldn't do, why are they engaging in this practice?


----------



## drop bear (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> All sport, you can say the set about American wrestling, which usually dominates BJJ. This has been shown countless times...why not just train that...oh wait, that's a Jr. and High school activity, people have for decades, long before BJJ  was the flavor of the month.
> 
> But really, I am not overly interested in sport, arts, they are limited and incomplete.



It isn't all sport.

Jocko willik for example has much more of a street pedigree than most street guys. Which is why I threw him in there.

And that is not uncommon in one way or another. Bjj is the corner stone of ground fighting for some police and the bulk of the military. Yours and ours.

It is one of the more obviously successful street martial arts if you ever wanted to jump on you tube. Along with boxing and other combat sports. But then a lot of people do BJJ and it is pretty obvious when they are doing it in the street.

American, folk, catch, roman greco wrestling is an interesting one. I think it has better application for street in a lot of ways. But is generally less accessible.

Its relationship with bjj is more complicated than "usually dominates" though It is more of a cousins marry kind of thing.

Here is Paul cale who heads the combatives program for the Australian army.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> As a former karate exponent (Shotokan), I've come to the conclusion that Bunkai is bunk in general. In my view kata as its generally taught in karate/Kung fu/whatever schools are filler in order to prop up the ranking system of many martial arts. I would actually argue that non-kata based MAs show better overall outcomes than kata-based MAs.
> 
> That said, I do think kata have value, mainly in the form of fitness or a type of moving meditation. However, students shouldn't be led to believe that their kata holds some sort of secret knowledge waiting to be unlocked, or that consistent kata practice will make them better fighters overall. You only become better at fighting by actually fighting.
> 
> Circling back to the point; Kata can be used to peddle nonsense like having hidden Bjj techniques inside traditional martial arts. This misinformation leads to people like Greywalker actually believing his mysterious karate style contained legitimate ground fighting techniques.


My opinion from the outside (never been "insider" on a kata-oriented system) is that if it's "kata based", that's too much focus on the forms. I like kata as warm-up, moving meditation, and a place to work on some basic principles (balance and structure can be reinforced without a partner). But a system shouldn't change dramatically if kata is removed, except insofar as that makes room for other drills. If removing the kata changes the entire system, it feels to me like the kata is given too much import.

Again, my thoughts from the outside, and likely some folks with more kata experience have different views.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> My opinion from the outside (never been "insider" on a kata-oriented system) is that if it's "kata based", that's too much focus on the forms. I like kata as warm-up, moving meditation, and a place to work on some basic principles (balance and structure can be reinforced without a partner). But a system shouldn't change dramatically if kata is removed, except insofar as that makes room for other drills. If removing the kata changes the entire system, it feels to me like the kata is given too much import.
> 
> Again, my thoughts from the outside, and likely some folks with more kata experience have different views.



As a person who has done both Karate and Boxing, taking away kata from some karate styles would fundamentally alter how some schools teach. Some forms of Karate have no sparring, so all they do is kata and one step drills. That said, if you remove kata and focus on actual application and sparring (frankly like sport MA), you get a better martial arts system overall.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Yes the flavor has lasted a while. A lot of suckers...but that is sport for you.
> 
> Point fighting has lasted just as long. If not longer...it must be legitimate as well.



Point fighting is not very common in MMA.

MMA is very common is successful self defence.

And 2+2=4

Or even self defence scenarios. Which is where self defence training pretty much lives.

Which if we go back to this scenario.






MMA has better options from more competent guys.

Which is kind of the point of this thread.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> As a person who has done both Karate and Boxing, taking away kata from some karate styles would fundamentally alter how some schools teach. Some forms of Karate have no sparring, so all they do is kata and one step drills. That said, if you remove kata and focus on actual and sparring (frankly like sport MA), you get a better martial arts system overall.



I agree with your 1st sentence.

2nd sentence, if true (I haven't seen this myself) is kind of sad.  Karate without sparring?  I understand if no tournament competition sparring, but   without strong one on one interaction of some type, the system/school will have a hole in its training and IMO lacking in actual self-defense value.

I disagree with the 3rd sentence.  Removing kata will not make the system better.  Kata contains the essence of the style and practical bunkai.  It is a valuable training aid in several areas as has been discussed earlier by others.  Consider removing shadow boxing, jumping rope or speed bag work from boxing.  Would that make a boxer's sparring better? 

Over-reliance on kata at the expense of other training, however, can be a bad thing, I agree.  I think a balance of fitness, sparring, kata, and application - all lead to, and contribute to, karate's main goal - effective self-defense. 

If the various trainings I mentioned (and perhaps others such as mental/spiritual) are *targeted* towards this main goal, the style will be worthwhile as a martial art.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Point fighting is not very common in MMA.
> 
> MMA is very common is successful self defence.
> 
> ...


MMA us really of no value to me at all. It really is nothing new. Combining different training methods, have been going on throughout the evolution of Martial Arts from basically the beginning.


----------



## skribs (Oct 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Point fighting is not very common in MMA.
> 
> MMA is very common is successful self defence.
> 
> And 2+2=4



The fact that MMA is commonly successful in self defense doesn't mean other styles are not.  I could easily apply this "logic" to any art.

"Punches are not common in BJJ.   BJJ is very commonly used in self-defense.  2 + 2 = 4, therefore boxing sucks for self-defense."


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I agree with your 1st sentence.
> 
> 2nd sentence, if true (I haven't seen this myself) is kind of sad.  Karate without sparring?  I understand if no tournament competition sparring, but   without strong one on one interaction of some type, the system/school will have a hole in its training and IMO lacking in actual self-defense value.



Well check out this Doshinkan Karate school, they frown on sparring;

Karatedo Doshinkan, Clemson University

I can only imagine what would happen if they needed to defend themselves.



> I disagree with the 3rd sentence.  Removing kata will not make the system better.  Kata contains the essence of the style and practical bunkai.  It is a valuable training aid in several areas as has been discussed earlier by others.  Consider removing shadow boxing, jumping rope or speed bag work from boxing.  Would that make a boxer's sparring better?



Shadow boxing, jumping rope, and speed bags aren't pre-determined forms. I do agree though that removal of the kata would turn the majority of Karate styles into kickboxing clones.



> Over-reliance on kata at the expense of other training, however, can be a bad thing, I agree.  I think a balance of fitness, sparring, kata, and application - all lead to, and contribute to, karate's main goal - effective self-defense.
> 
> If the various trainings I mentioned (and perhaps others such as mental/spiritual) are *targeted* towards this main goal, the style will be worthwhile as a martial art.



Eh, I have yet to see any evidence that kata benefits self defense. I mean, essentially it's a dance with close to zero fighting application. Consider a dojo where no one sparred like those Doshinkan folks, and just did kata all the time. Now consider a dojo where all they did was beat the hell out of each other via kumite all the time. Now set those schools loose on each other, and you tell me which group is going to come out on top.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> The fact that MMA is commonly successful in self defense doesn't mean other styles are not.  I could easily apply this "logic" to any art.
> 
> "Punches are not common in BJJ.   BJJ is very commonly used in self-defense.  2 + 2 = 4, therefore boxing sucks for self-defense."



Actually punching is quite common in Bjj (i.e. ground and pound).


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 3, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Eh, I have yet to see any evidence that kata benefits self defense. I mean, essentially it's a dance with close to zero fighting application. Consider a dojo where no one sparred like those Doshinkan folks, and just did kata all the time. Now consider a dojo where all they did was beat the hell out of each other via kumite all the time. Now set those schools loose on each other, and you tell me which group is going to come out on top.



The benefits of kata (again) are forming a strong stance foundation, footwork and tai sabaki (evasion), teaching good balance and posture, effective form when executing techniques, and last but not least, self-defense against grabs and other attacks.

Kata is not an end to itself, but part of an overall program of various trainings, each lending its own benefits.

Not having done kata or much karate, or understanding the origins and development of same, you do not have a good comprehension of the subject.  "Beating the hell out of each other via kumite all the time" leads not to karate, but to brawling.


----------



## skribs (Oct 3, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> The benefits of kata (again) are forming a strong stance foundation, footwork and tai sabaki (evasion), teaching good balance and posture, effective form when executing techniques, and last but not least, self-defense against grabs and other attacks.



The forms I've trained and the kata I've seen don't do a good job of teaching footwork or evasion.  Strong stances, maybe.  But not any footwork I'd use in a real fight.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 3, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> The benefits of kata (again) are forming a strong stance foundation, footwork and tai sabaki (evasion), teaching good balance and posture, effective form when executing techniques, and last but not least, self-defense against grabs and other attacks.
> 
> Kata is not an end to itself, but part of an overall program of various trainings, each lending its own benefits.
> 
> Not having done kata or much karate, or understanding the origins and development of same, you do not have a good comprehension of the subject.  "Beating the hell out of each other via kumite all the time" leads not to karate, but to brawling.


Just as an fyi, since you're using a lack of his experience with karate as an argument... @Hanzou has mentioned extensive (i think over 10 years but might be wrong) training in shotokan before switching to BJJ. So he's got experience training what he's talking about.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> The fact that MMA is commonly successful in self defense doesn't mean other styles are not.  I could easily apply this "logic" to any art.
> 
> "Punches are not common in BJJ.   BJJ is very commonly used in self-defense.  2 + 2 = 4, therefore boxing sucks for self-defense."



No. You build a case by producing evidence for that case. So there is evidence for boxing being successful even though it isn't used in BJJ.

And of course there is evidence for boxing in environments that BJJ compete in like MMA.

So the parts all equal pretty much the same thing. So now it is like 1+1+1+1=4.

Not the other way round. Which is basically the I don't know equalequal fallacy.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> MMA us really of no value to me at all. It really is nothing new. Combining different training methods, have been going on throughout the evolution of Martial Arts from basically the beginning.



Yeah. It is evidence based martial arts that is the defining factor of MMA evolution.

People did it. But nobody properly tested it.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> The benefits of kata (again) are forming a strong stance foundation, footwork and tai sabaki (evasion), teaching good balance and posture, effective form when executing techniques, and last but not least, self-defense against grabs and other attacks.



Non-kata martial arts do the exact same thing without kata, so obviously Karate can accomplish those same goals without kata.



> Kata is not an end to itself, but part of an overall program of various trainings, each lending its own benefits.



Which aren't inherently necessary, as evidenced by multiple MAs that don't have kata at all, yet are effective.



> Not having done kata or much karate, or understanding the origins and development of same,



I have done and understand both. Thanks for the assumption though.



> you do not have a good comprehension of the subject.  "Beating the hell out of each other via kumite all the time" leads not to karate, but to brawling.



So is Muay Thai, Boxing, or Sanda nothing more than "brawling" since they don't contain forms?


----------



## skribs (Oct 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No. You build a case by producing evidence for that case. So there is evidence for boxing being successful even though it isn't used in BJJ.
> 
> And of course there is evidence for boxing in environments that BJJ compete in like MMA.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how to address this.  Do I...

Point to the successful MMA fighters with a TMA background, like those with experience in Taekwondo and Karate?
Point to the success people with TMA backgrounds have had in real self-defense situations?
Try to explain (hoping you'd listen) why more people fight with a TMA background than you realize, because what you see in the forms or basic techniques isn't what you see when they actually fight?
Try to explain (again hoping you'd listen) how MMA isn't a *perfect* simulation of everything?  (Even though it is the best *simulation* we have available).
So many options to choose from.  But...I don't think you'd listen to any of them, as I've already gone into detail on this in the past.  So I'll just leave the highlights here.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. It is evidence based martial arts that is the defining factor of MMA evolution.
> 
> People did it. But nobody properly tested it.


That's great bud, but nothing you say, will convince me.  Your evidence is based in safety and ruleset, arts are always based on individual ability...always, in the real world scenario. This is how it has always been and always will be...the system is just not that important. You do and use what helps you survive in reality. It coming close, without actual knowledge, is playing the odds and that can get you killed.

Let it go, let it go.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> That's great bud, but nothing you say, will convince me.  Your evidence is based in safety and ruleset,




It’s also based on traditional martial art schools being willing to lie to incorporate Bjj into their curriculums.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I have done and understand both. Thanks for the assumption though.



I erred in confusing the quoter with the responder.  It appears you had 10 years in Shotokan?  If so, most people with that much expertise in karate would be a 2nd or 3rd dan with more appreciation of what the art contains, so am a little surprised by your views.  (I may be wrong in generalizing so.  If so, my apologies.)  As you understand kata well, you know it originally was a method of solo practicing pure brutal combat techniques in Okinawa.

Shotokan's kata are more stylized than the Okinawan kata, so in some (not all) of their dojos, the practical applications of their techniques are harder to discern as a rule.  Of course the Sensei's knowledge comes into play regarding their understanding of their art.  This is true in any style.  

My very limited knowledge points to forms training in old Muay Thai.  I have come across a form (or series of forms?) (or a style of Muay Thai that has forms?) called Muay Thai Boran.  Not sure if this is just one guy's recent invention, or if it represents the original (not competitive sport) Muay Thai.

Many old tournament sparring champions such as Chuck Norris were kata champions as well.  There were professional warriors in old Okinawa, whose fighting skills determined life or death for them, or their opponent.  *These were the guys who developed the kata* that many of our current kata are based on.  These guys played for keeps, not sport.  So why would they waste their time on kata if it was of little use in fighting?  By the way, the Samurai swordmasters (who would kill if you looked at them wrong) practiced kata as well - why?

Just wanted to present a fuller picture of my side of our dialog, not to force them on you.  Kata - take it or leave it.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> It’s also based on traditional martial art schools being willing to lie to incorporate Bjj into their curriculums.


In your opinion, but you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption.

Sure, some schools might, be sneaky with the BJJ addition, but there are gyms and coaches that will claim what they do, works in the street, with no personal experience at all, but by god they will claim it does because they tested it in competitions or the MMA octagon, with a ref and the ability to stop it and save their butts.

It works both ways.

A majority of schools in various styles of TMA, gave up training a lot of different ways, strictly to compete. That is what happened, this is well known...if it wasn't then you wouldn't have discussions, on how Gichin changed and left stuff out. And, that method then continued by his son for competitions. There is not much disputing that this did occur.

But, some schools didn't, to think otherwise, is simply ignorance.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I would need to see that kata, because it's rather hard to believe that you can pull something like the Guard system from a kata. The Guard system comes from experimentation and fighting application. It's also an invention of Brazilians, since it doesn't really exist in Asian martial arts.
> 
> It's also doubtful that Ninjas in medieval Japan needed to know how to pass a Guard.



Case by case basis, no idea if in this instance it comes from anything in their system before they branched into BJJ.    My statement was more general. People get too specfic on where XYZ comes from, and dont realise it can be without any outside influence and be a similar or the same conclusion, it happens all the time especially before you can ping information globally easily.

a ninja probbly wouldnt pass a guard the same way you would in BJJ now days though. (been looking into a Jujutsu koryu and it was pretty much grapplign with shortswords)


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## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2020)

Buka said:


> By the way, Hanson, nice to see you again.
> 
> As for your question, maybe they haven’t picked up on getting their hooks in yet. Maybe that will come in his next months “see, we grapple, too” lesson.


Agree, and I would add that looks like something straight out of Roman-Greco style wrestling. A drill we often practiced when in the bottom position. 
To the Hanzou 's OP I cannot think of a form that could express any of the ground fighting leg techniques but I can and do see some of the hand/arm techniques in forms. Whether that is how they are explained I imagine is different for each style.

I do think you are seeing the 'melting pot' of styles maybe in reverse a little; so much information is overlapping between styles everyone is 'poaching' things they see as good and implementing them into their style/system.


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## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If you’re a karate master, your kata should be crisp as hell. A master in karate should have kata that looks like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not a practiced JMA guy but I know a great form when I see one. The use of the ready had was amazing. Excellent overall composition.


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## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I would need to see that kata, because it's rather hard to believe that you can pull something like the Guard system from a kata. The Guard system comes from experimentation and fighting application. It's also an invention of Brazilians, since it doesn't really exist in Asian martial arts.
> 
> It's also doubtful that Ninjas in medieval Japan needed to know how to pass a Guard.


I am not certain about that 'invention'. Guarding has been around a long time in the wrestling world so if you wanted to lay claim to where it originated I would say it has to be France. I imagine it has been changed or that derivatives have been created though. Just as in about every other technique out there.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I erred in confusing the quoter with the responder.  It appears you had 10 years in Shotokan?  If so, most people with that much expertise in karate would be a 2nd or 3rd dan with more appreciation of what the art contains, so am a little surprised by your views.  (I may be wrong in generalizing so.  If so, my apologies.)  As you understand kata well, you know it originally was a method of solo practicing pure brutal combat techniques in Okinawa.
> 
> Shotokan's kata are more stylized than the Okinawan kata, so in some (not all) of their dojos, the practical applications of their techniques are harder to discern as a rule.  Of course the Sensei's knowledge comes into play regarding their understanding of their art.  This is true in any style.



Yes, I was second dan when I left Shotokan. The error here is that you think my instruction wasn't excellent, or that I somehow didn't understand what I was doing, or the origins of the kata. In fact, I had excellent instruction, and I was very interested in the history and the purpose of kata. The problem was that I encountered Boxing during my tenure in karate, and the boxers I ran across were vastly superior strikers to any karateka I knew. Boxers don't do kata, yet they run circles around karateka, and I think if karate's goal is to become something on the level of boxing in terms of striking art, they should examine why boxing is so good at what it does.



> My very limited knowledge points to forms training in old Muay Thai.  I have come across a form (or series of forms?) (or a style of Muay Thai that has forms?) called Muay Thai Boran.  Not sure if this is just one guy's recent invention, or if it represents the original (not competitive sport) Muay Thai.



Muay Boran and their forms is rarely taught outside of Thailand. If you walk into a Muay Thai gym, (or a MMA gym that teaches MT) you're not learning Muay Boran, you're learning the sport of Muay Thai without the forms.



> Many old tournament sparring champions such as Chuck Norris were kata champions as well.  There were professional warriors in old Okinawa, whose fighting skills determined life or death for them, or their opponent.  *These were the guys who developed the kata* that many of our current kata are based on.  These guys played for keeps, not sport.  So why would they waste their time on kata if it was of little use in fighting?  By the way, the Samurai swordmasters (who would kill if you looked at them wrong) practiced kata as well - why?
> 
> Just wanted to present a fuller picture of my side of our dialog, not to force them on you.  Kata - take it or leave it.



With all due respect to Chuck Norris, he was a point sparring champ, not a full contact karate or Vale Tudo champ. Also the legends of Okinawan warrior prowess is frankly overblown. For all of their supposed skill, they were still subjugated rather easily by the Japanese.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> In your opinion, but you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption.



I've been asking you to provide evidence of this since this thread began, yet you still have failed to do so.



Rat said:


> Case by case basis, no idea if in this instance it comes from anything in their system before they branched into BJJ.    My statement was more general. People get too specfic on where XYZ comes from, and dont realise it can be without any outside influence and be a similar or the same conclusion, it happens all the time especially before you can ping information globally easily.
> 
> a ninja probbly wouldnt pass a guard the same way you would in BJJ now days though. (been looking into a Jujutsu koryu and it was pretty much grapplign with shortswords)



The point is that a Ninja wouldn't need to learn how to pass a guard at all. In fact, even in modern times, there's really no need to learn how to pass a guard for self defense. The chances of you needing to know how to pass guard in a self defense situation is pretty close to zero. An attacker is not going pull guard on you, and the only reason you would ever encounter guard outside of a Bjj gym or a competition is if you somehow run across a Bjj or MMA enthusiast who YOU are dominating on the ground and YOU are trying to punish. 

We learn to pass guard in Bjj in order to beat other Bjj practicioners.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am not certain about that 'invention'. Guarding has been around a long time in the wrestling world so if you wanted to lay claim to where it originated I would say it has to be France. I imagine it has been changed or that derivatives have been created though. Just as in about every other technique out there.



You're talking about trunk holds or body scissors. The trunk hold (Do Jime in Judo) and body scissors isn't the same as the Guard system in Bjj. Further, there are multiple types of Guard, not just the closed variation.


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## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> You're talking about trunk holds or body scissors. The trunk hold (Do Jime in Judo) and body scissors isn't the same as the Guard system in Bjj. Further, there are multiple types of Guard, not just the closed variation.


Agree, but this is sort of the nexus of the whole post isn't it? Something is picked up from somewhere else, (another style) modified, changed, added to, called by another name, claimed by another style/person and then eventually coalesces into both styles/systems. I do not think this is a bad thing. All the posturing and claiming "that is mine" can be though. For example, you mentioned the trunk hold and the Do Jime are the same thing. Does it really matter where it originated? 
I seriously doubt it is done exactly the was it originated anyway.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Agree, but this is sort of the nexus of the whole post isn't it? Something is picked up from somewhere else, (another style) modified, changed, added to, called by another name, claimed by another style/person and then eventually coalesces into both styles/systems. I do not think this is a bad thing. All the posturing and claiming "that is mine" can be though. For example, you mentioned the trunk hold and the Do Jime are the same thing. Does it really matter where it originated?
> I seriously doubt it is done exactly the was it originated anyway.



No not really. The Guard position evolved from fighting off your back against a superior top position grappler (like wrestlers), or someone bigger and stronger than you. Also variations of open guard and half guard looks nothing like Trunk Holds or Body scissors. Wrestling and Judo never developed that aspect because the purpose of both sports was to avoid being on your back. Heck, in some forms of wrestling being on your back is viewed as an instant defeat, whereas in other forms of wrestling being on your back for a set amount of time is considered a pin, and thus a loss. So there was no reason to ever develop a position where you're fighting off your back for an extended amount of time. You can see this happening in Judo where the sport side of the MA has reduced the amount of time allowed for ground fighting, and that has actually altered how newaza is trained over time.

Bjj developed from NHB fights and matches where those rules simply weren't in play, so they were allowed to develop a system of fighting off your back for an extended amount of time.

There's also a huge difference between one type of guard resembling old wrestling holds, and a TMA literally taking the Bjj Guard system and claiming they got it from an ancient kata.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

@dvcochran just to point out what I'm talking about with the Guard, check out this grappling match between a catch wrestler and a Bjj practicioner, and observe the Guard play from the latter. I would also ignore the back and forth stuff in the beginning and skip right to the match @3:41 mark.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> That's great bud, but nothing you say, will convince me.  Your evidence is based in safety and ruleset, arts are always based on individual ability...always, in the real world scenario. This is how it has always been and always will be...the system is just not that important. You do and use what helps you survive in reality. It coming close, without actual knowledge, is playing the odds and that can get you killed.
> 
> Let it go, let it go.



Ok .let's look at individual ability. So the Danaher system is a very comprehensive leg lock system. And the Danaher death squad is very competitive with their leg locks in competition.

Now you are suggesting their system didn't work but that it just happened to be a coincidence that their system and their success in competition matched. Because the individuals just were genetically great foot lockers.

Everyone's evidence is based on safety and rule sets. The whole premis behind learning to fight is evidence based on rule set and safety.

Before you send your guys out to have their first street fight. You will have trained them in a safe environment with rules. So that they can gain competence in the skill they are learning. 

Again if we go back to the military. This is why they do BJJ. In part to test and increase the soldiers capability before they send him out to kill Hitler. 

Developing warrior ethos.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'm not sure how to address this.  Do I...
> 
> Point to the successful MMA fighters with a TMA background, like those with experience in Taekwondo and Karate?
> Point to the success people with TMA backgrounds have had in real self-defense situations?
> ...



Ok. So we are back to looking at cause and effect. So we can point to systems that work through evidence.

We can look at TMA training that does work in MMA and that is really easy because I know a point fighting karate school that does pretty well in MMA competition.

And we can look at that schools system and say for example your system and maybe try to figure out why one TMA point fighting karate school is successful at turning out fighters and the other has no evidence of success ever, anywhere.

Fitzroy Martial Arts | Fitzroy Fitness

Now to try to be a bit on topic. Hanzou for example could look at their ground work and see if they are doing freaky weird stuff from a Kata that just seems to fly in the face of anyone who has had any grappling success.


Fitzroy Martial Arts on Facebook Watch


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> In your opinion, but you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption.


Some Karate doesn't.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> No not really. The Guard position evolved from fighting off your back against a superior top position grappler (like wrestlers), or someone bigger and stronger than you. Also variations of open guard and half guard looks nothing like Trunk Holds or Body scissors. Wrestling and Judo never developed that aspect because the purpose of both sports was to avoid being on your back. Heck, in some forms of wrestling being on your back is viewed as an instant defeat, whereas in other forms of wrestling being on your back for a set amount of time is considered a pin, and thus a loss. So there was no reason to ever develop a position where you're fighting off your back for an extended amount of time. You can see this happening in Judo where the sport side of the MA has reduced the amount of time allowed for ground fighting, and that has actually altered how newaza is trained over time.
> 
> Bjj developed from NHB fights and matches where those rules simply weren't in play, so they were allowed to develop a system of fighting off your back for an extended amount of time.
> 
> There's also a huge difference between one type of guard resembling old wrestling holds, and a TMA literally taking the Bjj Guard system and claiming they got it from an ancient kata.


I keep getting lost in BJJ terminology. Remind me again, please, what "open" and "closed" are, in reference to guard.


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## Graywalker (Oct 4, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Some Karate doesn't.


Some Karate does, would mean some Karate doesn't.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I keep getting lost in BJJ terminology. Remind me again, please, what "open" and "closed" are, in reference to guard.



Closed is your legs locked behind their back.

Open is your legs active.
Eg.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Some Karate does, would mean some Karate doesn't.


That's doesn't logically follow, but that's irrelevant. You said "you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption". I was simply saying that it's true that some Karate doesn't, so it wouldn't have been a false assumption. Perhaps what you meant was "you seem to think that no Karate practices ground escapes"?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Closed is your legs locked behind their back.
> 
> Open is your legs active.
> Eg.


Thanks. Some day I'll remember that.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I keep getting lost in BJJ terminology. Remind me again, please, what "open" and "closed" are, in reference to guard.



DB pretty much explained it. There's also half guard which tends to be where you're on your side, arms wrapping up their upper body,  and your legs or leg is controlling one of your opponent's legs so that they can't advance to side control or mount. A lot of Bjjers can do some amazing stuff from half guard.

I'm not one of them.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> the boxers I ran across were vastly superior strikers to any karateka



Shotokan morphed into stylized sport and general self-improvement activity pretty much from its inception as you know.  Thus, its focus was not on just pure fighting skills.  In comparing karateka and boxer striking, this must be factored in Some karateka do emphasize fighting to a higher degree than others.  Also, are you considering the karateka are unable to put their full skill set to use in a boxing setting?  Grabbing, sweeping, joint striking to elbows and knees, elbowing, kicking, attacking to groin, eyes and throat?  Such things may give them an edge in actual combat, or are we just talking sport sparring?  Beleive me, I have great respect for a well trained boxer, enough to stay away from their superior punching skills and try to take advantage of the karate skill sets not allowed in boxing.  I think you'll agree they are two different activities.



Hanzou said:


> learning Muay Boran, you're learning the sport of Muay Thai without the forms.



So, while sport Muay does not have forms, the native combat Muay does?  Interesting.  



Hanzou said:


> With all due respect to Chuck Norris, he was a point sparring champ, not a full contact karate or Vale Tudo champ. Also the legends of Okinawan warrior prowess is frankly overblown. For all of their supposed skill, they were still subjugated rather easily by the Japanese.



True.  He was getting a little old when full contact really kicked in.  The key to his sparring success was his combinations which relied on good technique execution.  I'm sure his kata helped with that.  There was plenty of incidental (yet solid) contact when Norris was competing, especially when he was a professional.  

As for the Japanese (Satsuma clan in particular) subjugating the Ryukyu Kingdom, Japan was many times bigger than tiny Okinawa with 100-1 advantage in strength.  All the skill in the world can't beat odds like that.  They did have resistance groups for over 200 years defending themselves against the oppressors who looked down upon the Okinawans as inferiors and often treated them as such.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Shotokan morphed into stylized sport and general self-improvement activity pretty much from its inception as you know.  Thus, its focus was not on just pure fighting skills.  In comparing karateka and boxer striking, this must be factored in Some karateka do emphasize fighting to a higher degree than others.  Also, are you considering the karateka are unable to put their full skill set to use in a boxing setting?  Grabbing, sweeping, joint striking to elbows and knees, elbowing, kicking, attacking to groin, eyes and throat?  Such things may give them an edge in actual combat, or are we just talking sport sparring?  Beleive me, I have great respect for a well trained boxer, enough to stay away from their superior punching skills and try to take advantage of the karate skill sets not allowed in boxing.  I think you'll agree they are two different activities.



Let's not get silly here and push the argument that since Isshin-Ryu is more "traditional" it's thus superior to the more modern forms by default. Isshin-Ryu isn't viewed as a go-to striking system for a reason, whereas Boxing and MT are. And no, I'm not talking about sport sparring, I'm talking about fighting in general. A boxer simply has better footwork, evasion, speed, stamina, and punching power than your typical karateka, and they have a superior ability to chain their punches together into combinations that the latter simply can't adapt to.

I'm sure Isshin-Ryu provides many benefits to someone seeking martial arts training. However, if someone came to me and asked me what they wanted to take to defend themselves in a fight, I would tell them boxing without hesitation. You'll be a more competent fighter after 6 months of boxing than you would after 6 years of karate (any version of it).




> So, while sport Muay does not have forms, the native combat Muay does?  Interesting.



And what's more interesting is that the actual fighters coming out of Thailand practice Muay Thai, not Muay Boran.



> True.  He was getting a little old when full contact really kicked in.  The key to his sparring success was his combinations which relied on good technique execution.  I'm sure his kata helped with that.  There was plenty of incidental (yet solid) contact when Norris was competing, especially when he was a professional.



The point is that point sparring isn't full contact sparring, and it isn't MMA. I wouldn't use Norris as an example for much of anything beyond action movies.



> As for the Japanese (Satsuma clan in particular) subjugating the Ryukyu Kingdom, Japan was many times bigger than tiny Okinawa with 100-1 advantage in strength.  All the skill in the world can't beat odds like that.  They did have resistance groups for over 200 years defending themselves against the oppressors who looked down upon the Okinawans as inferiors and often treated them as such.



Indeed. My point was that for all of the vaunted skill of the Okinawans, they still lost. It's nice to look at that sort of stuff and side with the underdog, but to take the underdog concept and try to use it as a metric of MA effectiveness is foolish. I think it's better to look at it like this; Despite the Okinawans having Karate, the Japanese (honestly the Satsuma clan) still beat them handily.

So where does that leave us? It leaves us with the fact that if someone is seeking to become a professional martial arts fighter, they (typically) aren't going to a traditional karate school to develop their striking ability. There's a reason for that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> DB pretty much explained it. There's also half guard which tends to be where you're on your side, arms wrapping up their upper body,  and your legs or leg is controlling one of your opponent's legs so that they can't advance to side control or mount. A lot of Bjjers can do some amazing stuff from half guard.
> 
> I'm not one of them.


Then if we were ever to get to roll, getting you into half-mount would be my only hope. And not a very good one, since I'm unlikely to be able to control you to get you there.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Let's not ,get silly here and push the argument that since Isshin-Ryu is more "traditional" it's thus superior to the more modern forms


 
I never mentioned Isshinryu (there is a wide range of historical knowledge, traditionality and proficiency within this style, from high to low, depending on the school/branch), only referred to Okinawa as this is where our karate was first formed.  Not trying to knock Shotokan or any other style, just providing a historical context.  

Also, never called any style or form superior, just that the Okinawan kata (which Shotokan's was based on) was closer to the original design in the time line, and not modified as much as Funakoshi's system he introduced to Japan.  This modification can't be heavily criticized as it was key in the popularization of karate.  Indeed, I have great respect for Shotokan technical execution.



Hanzou said:


> Despite the Okinawans having Karate, the Japanese (honestly the Satsuma clan) still beat them handily.



This is not correct - The Okinawans did _not_ have Karate.  Karate or more correctly Fujian White Crane kung fu, didn't even get to Okinawa till well _after_ the Satsuma invasion of 1609, so this did not factor in.  Superior numbers and resources allowed the successful invasion and occupation.



Hanzou said:


> if someone is seeking to become a professional martial arts fighter, they (typically) aren't going to a traditional karate school to develop their striking ability.



I agree 100%.  (I knew eventually we'd find some common ground).  Thank you for these rounds of discussion.


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## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> @dvcochran just to point out what I'm talking about with the Guard, check out this grappling match between a catch wrestler and a Bjj practicioner, and observe the Guard play from the latter. I would also ignore the back and forth stuff in the beginning and skip right to the match @3:41 mark.


I wrestled in high school and college but have been an up fighter for most of my adult life. It is still hard for me to process willingly starting on your butt like that  but is obviously is very effective.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I never mentioned Isshinryu (there is a wide range of historical knowledge, traditionality and proficiency within this style, from high to low, depending on the school/branch), only referred to Okinawa as this is where our karate was first formed.  Not trying to knock Shotokan or any other style, just providing a historical context.
> 
> Also, never called any style or form superior, just that the Okinawan kata (which Shotokan's was based on) was closer to the original design in the time line, and not modified as much as Funakoshi's system he introduced to Japan.  This modification can't be heavily criticized as it was key in the popularization of karate.  Indeed, I have great respect for Shotokan technical execution.



You're free to knock Shotokan karate. I'm perfectly happy knocking it myself. My point was that we should avoid the fallacy that a martial art is better the more "traditional" it is. Take a look at that video I posted of that Catch Wrestler versus the Bjj practitioner and listen to the fight commentary. That is a prime example of old school versus new school, where the Bjj practitioner's system has evolved and adapted, while the Catch practitioner is using outmoded tactics that leave him hopelessly outclassed. Further, the Catch wrestler's tactics aren't even that old, that's just how much Bjj has evolved in the span of about a decade. This evolution was largely fueled by significant challenges to Bjj from Judo, Catch, Sambo, Wrestling, and other forms of grappling.

Not much is different on the striking side of things. The problem is that instead of evolving, systems like Isshin-Ryu (and Shotokan) stay static and adhere tightly to decades old conventions. This leads to them becoming outmoded and less effective. 




> This is not correct - The Okinawans did _not_ have Karate.  Karate or more correctly Fujian White Crane kung fu, didn't even get to Okinawa till well _after_ the Satsuma invasion of 1609, so this did not factor in.  Superior numbers and resources allowed the successful invasion and occupation.



According to this article, Chinese martial arts were first brought to Okinawans in the 15th century, which would be about 200 years before the Satsuma invasion;

HISTORY OF OKINAWA KARATE

We also know that King Sho Shin banned the practice of martial arts in 1477, so there were obviously some form of martial arts being practiced on the island at that point.



> I agree 100%.  (I knew eventually we'd find some common ground).  Thank you for these rounds of discussion.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I wrestled in high school and college but have been an up fighter for most of my adult life. It is still hard for me to process willingly starting on your butt like that  but is obviously is very effective.



As a practitioner of Bjj I'm seeing it constantly, and it's still hard for me to process as well. However, it is very effective, and it is a nightmare to deal with. I understand why it developed that way though; Why bother dealing with a superior takedown artist (i.e. a wrestler or Judoka) when you can just sit on your *** and force him to play your game?


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## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> As a practitioner of Bjj I'm seeing it constantly, and it's still hard for me to process as well. However, it is very effective, and it is a nightmare to deal with. I understand why it developed that way though; Why bother dealing with a superior takedown artist (i.e. a wrestler or Judoka) when you can just sit on your *** and force him to play your game?


That does make sense. It must really hard to stay back/clear and wail on whatever is closest to you? That is my Kali training kicking in. 
The guy on his butt was surprisingly fast though.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 4, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Not much is different on the striking side of things. The problem is that instead of evolving, systems like Isshin-Ryu (and Shotokan) stay static and adhere tightly to decades old conventions. This leads to them becoming outmoded and less effective.



Yes, it can be said that most karate was static from 1930's to 1990's, especially in the West.  Then, old Okinawan texts (extremely rare) began to be located and translated, illuminating the roots of karate as a combat fighting system based largely on White Crane (founded about 1700, and Shaolin Monk Fist (Arhat).  This encouraged a good look at the past.  This resulted in some change for the future, as it caused kata bunkai to be reexamined for the more effective combat applications, such as they had in the old days when it really counted. 



Hanzou said:


> Chinese martial arts were first brought to Okinawans in the 15th century, which would be about 200 years before the Satsuma invasion;



This is true, but Chinese martial arts were not karate.  There was a Chinese trade settlement (with military attaches) in Okinawa (est. 1393) and continued for a few centuries.  Some of these guys likely knew various styles of kung fu, but it does not seem they shared much.  At least not enough to sustain the creation of a unique Okinawan adaptation of it (i.e. Karate).  

This seems to have happened around mid 1700's when some documentation shows the arrival of Master Kusanku (Shotokan's "Kanku" kata  supposedly based on his style.)  A newspaper article, just after this time, about his fighting ability is the 1st known documentation of Chinese martial arts being used in Okinawa. 

Several Okinawan warrior types went to China in the early/mid 1800's, notably "Toude" Sakugawa, and Aragake Seisho, to study MA (mostly White Crane and its offshoots.)  It was these men and their direct students that developed what became recognizable to us as "karate."  (See below for more.)



Hanzou said:


> We also know that King Sho Shin banned the practice of martial arts in 1477, so there were obviously some form of martial arts being practiced on the island at that point.



True, there were native Okinawan MAs prior to the 1800's, including some Japanese MA, which later all got incorporated in the creation of Okinawan karate during the time period described above.  Hanzou, you've got the general facts - hope you don't mind me fleshing them out.  If I only knew something about BJJ and Muay Thai...


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Yes, it can be said that most karate was static from 1930's to 1990's, especially in the West.  Then, old Okinawan texts (extremely rare) began to be located and translated, illuminating the roots of karate as a combat fighting system based largely on White Crane (founded about 1700, and Shaolin Monk Fist (Arhat).  This encouraged a good look at the past.  This resulted in some change for the future, as it caused kata bunkai to be reexamined for the more effective combat applications, such as they had in the old days when it really counted.



Ah see, here we are again with the notion that there is some sort of superiority in a more traditional approach. 

Let me ask you a question; Do you believe that the best (technical skill and fighting ability) martial artists in the world are competitive sport fighters?


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## lklawson (Oct 5, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due. This particular school claims that these techniques come from one of their kata, and it's been translated for the modern day. In actuality, they're techniques that come from Bjj, and while I have some issue with how those techniques are presented (the stuff he's doing after losing the back mount is.... interesting. Like seriously, just hook your legs to avoid getting tossed off), the execution wasn't awful in general.
> 
> I don't understand why such schools simply can't say that they went to a Bjj or MMA gym and learned ground fighting. Do they think that their methods would be looked down on if they incorporated a "sport" into their system? Again, I'm happy that they have chosen to teach their students ground fighting, I just don't understand why they need to hide where they're getting these techniques from.


I've got some old catch wrestling manuals that have techniques that look like BJJ and newaza.  They pre-date Barton-Wright bringing Tani and Uyenishi.  There are a bunch of fetchbuck's include locks that look just like jujutsu.

Maybe they're being honest?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Hanzou (Oct 5, 2020)

lklawson said:


> I've got some old catch wrestling manuals that have techniques that look like BJJ and newaza.  They pre-date Barton-Wright bringing Tani and Uyenishi.  There are a bunch of fetchbuck's include locks that look just like jujutsu.
> 
> Maybe they're being honest?
> 
> ...



Not surprising since Bjj has roots from Judo exponents who often fought/cross trained with catch wrestlers, and Lutre Livre which also has some catch aspects.

Bjj practitioners have never made an effort to hide those roots.


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## lklawson (Oct 5, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Not surprising since Bjj has roots from Judo exponents who often fought/cross trained with catch wrestlers, and Lutre Livre which also has some catch aspects.
> 
> Bjj practitioners have never made an effort to hide those roots.


Could be.  OTOH, I think it highly likely that elements of parallel evolution may be at work.  The human body pretty much breaks exactly the same way as it did 10,000 years ago, regardless of whether or not the eyes are round or slant, or the skin is dark or Lilly white.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Oct 5, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Could be.  OTOH, I think it highly likely that elements of parallel evolution may be at work.  The human body pretty much breaks exactly the same way as it did 10,000 years ago, regardless of whether or not the eyes are round or slant, or the skin is dark or Lilly white.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I don't know if that argument necessarily works.

The human body works the same. But our understanding of it changes.

Old timey medicine would be a good example.


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## Hanzou (Oct 5, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Could be.  OTOH, I think it highly likely that elements of parallel evolution may be at work.  The human body pretty much breaks exactly the same way as it did 10,000 years ago, regardless of whether or not the eyes are round or slant, or the skin is dark or Lilly white.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Yeah, no. Maeda was a traveling fighter who did tons of exhibition matches, and many of those matches were against catch wrestlers. On top of that, Judo had influences from catch wrestling as well. Then of course there were decades of interaction with Luta Livre which is essentially Brazilian catch wrestling.

Here's the point; Bjj never hid the fact that their art has its roots in Judo and wrestling. Here we have a group of Ninjas saying that they have Bjj inside their ancient ninja kata. There's a big difference there.


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## lklawson (Oct 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I don't know if that argument necessarily works.
> 
> The human body works the same. But our understanding of it changes.
> 
> Old timey medicine would be a good example.


We're talking joint locks, not curing cancer.


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## drop bear (Oct 6, 2020)

lklawson said:


> We're talking joint locks, not curing cancer.



Same thing really. 

We have a lot better understanding now as to how things work. And there is a lot more imput from experts.


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## lklawson (Oct 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Same thing really.


Good to know. I'll go tell the oncologists that you said they can cure cancer with a kote gaeshi.   ...and other stupid things you like to say.  You can stop now, or would you prefer to keep saying silly things?


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## drop bear (Oct 6, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Good to know. I'll go tell the oncologists that you said they can cure cancer with a kote gaeshi.   ...and other stupid things you like to say.  You can stop now, or would you prefer to keep saying silly things?




The point is you could. But in modern times with better understanding of the human body they won't believe you. 

Just like martial arts.


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## lklawson (Oct 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The point is you could. But in modern times with better understanding of the human body they won't believe you.
> 
> Just like martial arts.


So you're going with option B.


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## Graywalker (Oct 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That's doesn't logically follow, but that's irrelevant. You said "you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption". I was simply saying that it's true that some Karate doesn't, so it wouldn't have been a false assumption. Perhaps what you meant was "you seem to think that no Karate practices ground escapes"?


Good Lord, we have a grammer cop...there, they're, their...it's ok buddy, "a big deal it isn't."


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Good Lord, we have a grammer cop...there, they're, their...it's ok buddy, "a big deal it isn't."


So, you did mean that other thing. If you think your bad communication makes me a “grammar cop”, cool.


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## Graywalker (Oct 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> So, you did mean that other thing. If you think your bad communication makes me a “grammar cop”, cool.


Chill mod, it was a joke.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Chill mod, it was a joke.


Not a very funny one, apparently.


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## Graywalker (Oct 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Not a very funny one, apparently.


Ah overly sensitive, I will remember that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 7, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Ah overly sensitive, I will remember that.


Interesting take. Go with that.


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## Graywalker (Oct 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Interesting take. Go with that.


Most definitely will. Everytime.


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## Fudo (Oct 10, 2020)

I saw the introduction and the video lesson, I did not see the Sensei mention this is from any of the Ninpo ryu-ha waza specifically, he does mention they take some of the waza and apply modern concepts which would be known as Goshinjutsu(self defense which is a very general term) and once a waza is applied that way it no longer is considered part of the original curriculum offically.
For all we know since this is a snippet of a video he may have said I learned this in my BJJ class off camera.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due.


This kind of things happened all the time. The Japanese Jiu-Jitsu came from the Chinese Shuai-Chiao. But some Japanese won't admit that

Ming Dynasty (1277 ~ 1367)

Chen Yuan-Ping is credited for bringing Shuai-Chiao to Japan. His intimate knowledge of Shuai-Chiao's joint locks, controls, takedowns, and throws formed the basis of what became Jiu-Jitsu, which later evolved into Judo and Aikido.

Origins of KODOKAN JUDO | Judo Info

This is not necessarily to deny that Chen Yuan-Ping introduced chinese boxing, 'kempo', to japan. Indeed, it is more or less reasonable to ...


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## Fudo (Oct 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This kind of things happened all the time. The Japanese Jiu-Jitsu came from the Chinese Shuai-Chiao. But Japanese won't admit that
> 
> Ming Dynasty (1277 ~ 1367)
> 
> ...


You left out this part:
*A word may be added about the legend that jujitsu was originally introduced to japan by a chinese named Chen Yuan-ping, approximately in 1644-48, or in 1627 according to the ‘Kokushoji’ document. However, a large amount of authentic evidence disproves this.
Origins of KODOKAN JUDO | Judo Info
*
We know that Katori Shinto ryu around 1400's has Jujutsu, Takenouchi ryu 1532, Yoshin ryu 1632, among many others before 1644. Many ryuha(schools) had a very small amount of jujutsu mostly just Gyaku(reversals) or something very crude as jujutsu was not a dominate art for the samurai compared to spear, sword and bow and arrow.
Many martial artist did sumo which had a big impact on jujutsu as well has the sword, just looking at Yagyu Shinkage ryu footwork one can see the applications for jujutsu in the approach. Shuai Jiao may have had some influence on jujutsu but jujutsu became its own thing due to the battle field Samurai were dealing with, it is similar to the Katana and how originally Japanese used a straight sword with a Chinese influence but dropped it in favor to the modern Katana forging.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2020)

Fudo said:


> I saw the introduction and the video lesson, I did not see the Sensei mention this is from any of the Ninpo ryu-ha waza specifically, he does mention they take some of the waza and apply modern concepts which would be known as Goshinjutsu(self defense which is a very general term) and once a waza is applied that way it no longer is considered part of the original curriculum offically.
> For all we know since this is a snippet of a video he may have said I learned this in my BJJ class off camera.



The implication is clear though, since they didn’t mention where they actually got those techniques, and mention adapted kata instead of just saying they learned it from Bjj. They could have easily just said that in modern times they adapt many modern disciplines, and gave credit where credit is due.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This kind of things happened all the time. The Japanese Jiu-Jitsu came from the Chinese Shuai-Chiao. But some Japanese won't admit that
> 
> Ming Dynasty (1277 ~ 1367)
> 
> ...



This really isn't the same thing. You're talking about the Japanese denying something that happened hundreds of years ago, and as Fudo pointed out, there's some discrepancy in when the Japanese developed unarmed Jujutsu techniques. We know that the Samurai existed in Japan in the 12th century, and that predates the Ming Dynasty by almost a century.

In any case, I'm talking about a martial art school that is clearly using Bjj techniques and claiming it comes from their kata instead of a sport MA which they clearly malign.


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## Fudo (Oct 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> The implication is clear though, since they didn’t mention where they actually got those techniques, and mention adapted kata instead of just saying they learned it from Bjj. They could have easily just said that in modern times they adapt many modern disciplines, and gave credit where credit is due.


It says has adapted many katas to modern times-meaning it has taken old katas and applied to modern times =Goshinjutsu.
It also says has a sub set ground curriculum of 30 techniques- Which implies additonal or part of what they teach. He does not say our ground curriculum is part of Shinden Fudo ryu as a subset nor does he say our ground curriculum is part of an ancient kata implying it is from anything ninjutsu realted.
But if it bothers you so much why not ask for clarfication from them? I am sure they would be happy to explain what they meant. 
Contact The Dojo


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2020)

Fudo said:


> It says has adapted many katas to modern times-meaning it has taken old katas and applied to modern times =Goshinjutsu.
> It also says has a sub set ground curriculum of 30 techniques- Which implies additonal or part of what they teach. He does not say our ground curriculum is part of Shinden Fudo ryu as a subset nor does he say our ground curriculum is part of an ancient kata implying it is from anything ninjutsu realted.
> But if it bothers you so much why not ask for clarfication from them? I am sure they would be happy to explain what they meant.
> Contact The Dojo



I think you should read the introduction to the video again. They make it rather clear that they supposedly got their ground fighting techniques by adapting kata, which is utter and complete nonsense.

I have no need to contact the dojo for clarification. I already know exactly what they're doing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> This really isn't the same thing. You're talking about the Japanese denying something that happened hundreds of years ago, and as Fudo pointed out, there's some discrepancy in when the Japanese developed unarmed Jujutsu techniques. We know that the Samurai existed in Japan in the 12th century, and that predates the Ming Dynasty by almost a century.
> 
> In any case, I'm talking about a martial art school that is clearly using Bjj techniques and claiming it comes from their kata instead of a sport MA which they clearly malign.


Do you think there are just too much similarity between both?

Yuan Dynasty Chinese Shuai-Chiao (1277 ~ 1367)






Japanese Sumo.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think there are just too much similarity between both?



Like many things in Japanese culture, I have no doubt that some aspects of classical Jujutsu came from China. That really isn't the same as what we're talking about here. In this case we have TMA schools implementing Bjj ground fighting, not giving Bjj credit for it, and then implying that sport MAs are inferior to their "traditional" system.

I understand why they're doing it. It's just sleazy and underhanded, and they're teaching their students in an inferior way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Like many things in Japanese culture, I have no doubt that some aspects of classical Jujutsu came from China. That really isn't the same as what we're talking about here. In this case we have TMA schools implementing Bjj ground fighting, not giving Bjj credit for it, and then implying that sport MAs are inferior to their "traditional" system.


People like to steal. That's just human nature. People also like to think their MA system is perfect and complete.

A: Does your style have roundhouse kick?
B: My style has hook punch. The roundhouse kick is just a hook punch with the leg.

A: Does your style have flying knee?
B: My style has jumping kick. The flying knee is just a jumping kick without the kick.

A: Does your style have spin hook kick?
B: My style has floor sweep. The spin hook kick is just a floor sweep but higher.

A: Does your style have ground game?
B: My style has stand up lock. The ground game is just a stand up lock on the ground.

I told WC guys that my SC system also has the WC Bong Shou. Here is the proof.


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## Fudo (Oct 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I think you should read the introduction to the video again. They make it rather clear that they supposedly got their ground fighting techniques by adapting kata, which is utter and complete nonsense.
> 
> I have no need to contact the dojo for clarification. I already know exactly what they're doing.


So rather than then ask the guy who made the video exactly what he meant for clarfication you rather create a post on martial talk complaining about it?! Dude you are the ultimate P U S S Y.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2020)

Fudo said:


> So rather than then ask the guy who made the video exactly what he meant for clarfication you rather create a post on martial talk complaining about it?! Dude you are the ultimate P U S S Y.



Since we can all read, and since we know the difference between techniques pulled from kata and techniques pulled from another MA, why do we need clarification exactly? The guy who made the video didn't mention Bjj at any point in the video, or in the description, and stated specifically that the techniques are pulled from kata and some "30 techniques".

I'm sorry if I offended your marital arts brethren who like to pretend that they're 16th century warriors, but facts are facts. 

BTW, I wasn't complaining about them doing it, I was just asking why do they feel the need to do it.


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## lklawson (Oct 15, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This kind of things happened all the time. The Japanese Jiu-Jitsu came from the Chinese Shuai-Chiao. But some Japanese won't admit that


That's because it's more likely that it evolved from local wrestling and fighting styles.  China is "close" (ish) but not that close, particularly during the period you're referring to, when travel was far less easy than it is today.  It's much more likely that what you're seeing is a case of parallel evolution.  The human body only breaks in so many ways and given a decade or two, everyone is likely to find all of them and it's going to end up looking pretty similar.



> Ming Dynasty (1277 ~ 1367)
> 
> Chen Yuan-Ping is credited for bringing Shuai-Chiao to Japan. His intimate knowledge of Shuai-Chiao's joint locks, controls, takedowns, and throws formed the basis of what became Jiu-Jitsu, which later evolved into Judo and Aikido.


Did he take it to Europe too?  Because they had joint locks and wrestling too.  Wanna see some pictures.  Did he take it to pre-Christian Rome and Greece?  Parallel evolution.




Elbow Lock against lapel grab - Petter's "Wrestling" 1674 by lklawson



marozzo oshi taoshi 1 by lklawson



Reversal to Elbow Lock - Petter's "Wrestling" 1674 by lklawson



Goliath Fechtbuch by lklawson



Goliath Fechtbuch by lklawson






> Origins of KODOKAN JUDO | Judo Info
> 
> This is not necessarily to deny that Chen Yuan-Ping introduced chinese boxing, 'kempo', to japan. Indeed, it is more or less reasonable to ...


<cough>"The origin of jujitsu is lost in the mists of antiquity."<cough>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 15, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> there's some discrepancy in when the Japanese developed unarmed Jujutsu techniques.


Pretty much as soon as they grew hands and feet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 15, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> People like to steal. That's just human nature. People also like to think their MA system is perfect and complete.
> 
> A: Does your style have roundhouse kick?
> B: My style has hook punch. The roundhouse kick is just a hook punch with the leg.
> ...


The Shuai-Chiao folks were taught wrestling by traveling Egyptian martial artists, but they refuse to admit it.  Proof!




Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson



Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson



Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson



Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson



Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Buka (Oct 15, 2020)

Fudo said:


> I saw the introduction and the video lesson, I did not see the Sensei mention this is from any of the Ninpo ryu-ha waza specifically, he does mention they take some of the waza and apply modern concepts which would be known as Goshinjutsu(self defense which is a very general term) and once a waza is applied that way it no longer is considered part of the original curriculum offically.
> For all we know since this is a snippet of a video he may have said I learned this in my BJJ class off camera.



Just wanted to say, Welcome to Martial Talk, Fudo.


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## dvcochran (Oct 15, 2020)

lklawson said:


> The human body only breaks in so many ways and given a decade or two, everyone is likely to find all of them and it's going to end up looking pretty similar.


Haha! I had to laugh at that one. Several years ago I was in an accident that ended with me having 28 breaks and a bunch of other crap. I still have 10 plates (down form 12) on my body. From my perspective a bone and/or body can be broken pretty much anywhere.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2020)

lklawson said:


> That's because it's more likely that it evolved from local wrestling and fighting styles.


They may develop similar technique. How about the similarity of their dress and hair style?

Yuan Dynasty Chinese Shuai-Chiao (1277 ~ 1367)





Japanese Sumo.


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## lklawson (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> They may develop similar technique. How about the similarity of their dress and hair style?
> 
> Yuan Dynasty Chinese Shuai-Chiao (1277 ~ 1367)
> 
> ...


What about the similarity of the dress and hair style?  It just proves that the traveling Egyptian martial artists taught the Chinese (and they won't admit it!).



Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson








Mesopotamian man-bun.

Or, you know, it could be that there's nothing special about a loin-cloth or a man-bun.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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