# Chum Kiu 3rd section help



## izeqb (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi guys...

Today I talked with friend of mine, who also does wing chun. We were discussing the chum kiu form and when we came to the end of 3rd section, we were lost...

The part I'm refering to is right after the double bong-sau / double tan-sau (in our linage we go from bong to tan, but I realize that some linages don't).

I also realize that the double bong sau's are sometimes refered to as kaw-sau's, but let's leave that for another day 

Well, after the three double bong sau's, you sweep your rear leg up to the front one and end up in a very narrow stance.

Then you do (we) "lift" the bong-sau's up above the head with the back of the hands facing eachother. Then we sink the elbows and do a double palm-strike...

Now... my first question is, why the narrow stance?
My own guess would be something about generating power from a narrow stance, but what do you guys think?

The second question is, what's the deal with going from double bong, up to the "seal clapping motion"...? Is it something about "what is down must come up"?

Please share your thoughts


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## izeqb (Apr 7, 2011)

at 1:07 Yip Man does the action I'm refering to...


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## yak sao (Apr 7, 2011)

The extended arms overhead are what bong sau would look like if you were to allow it to extend unobstructed.
So what you are showing in this sequence is the lowest expression of bong sau ( the low double bongs) to its fullest extension ( the high seal clapping motion you referred to)

As for application....generally a double movement is only applied with one arm...think of an overhead club attack coming down toward your head. The high man sau acts as a wedge to allow the attack to deflect down the arm.


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## yak sao (Apr 7, 2011)

Also, if I may, keep in mind that unlike other systems of kung fu whose forms focus on application, WC forms focus on concept. It's OK to take an idea out of a form and use it to drill an application, but the application is only there as an example of the underlying concept being taught. Focusing on concept allows you to adapt to ever changing situations , where focusing on application puts blinders on you.....or as Bruce Lee put it, "don't focus on the finger pointing to the moon"


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## izeqb (Apr 8, 2011)

yak sao said:


> The extended arms overhead are what bong sau would look like if you were to allow it to extend unobstructed.
> So what you are showing in this sequence is the lowest expression of bong sau ( the low double bongs) to its fullest extension ( the high seal clapping motion you referred to)
> 
> As for application....generally a double movement is only applied with one arm...think of an overhead club attack coming down toward your head. The high man sau acts as a wedge to allow the attack to deflect down the arm.



That makes sense... Thank you for your trohugout reply  

What about gathering the feet in the very narrow stance... Any explanation for that?


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2011)

izeqb said:


> What about gathering the feet in the very narrow stance... Any explanation for that?


 
Yak was right on the money about the high man-sau deflecting a downward strike with a club. Now the narrow feet thing is a little tougher to explain. I don't recall my old sifu addressing that directly... and I haven't ever discussed it with my current instructor in Austin, so I'm left to speculating. Here are a few ideas.

First, by pulling-up your feet together, you are doing the first half of our "passing-step" where you quickly cover a longer distance by stepping through with the rear foot. However in Chum Kiu we don't step all the way through in a straight line, but instead, we extend the same foot back behind us and pivot 180 degrees into the next movement.

So we have a movement that teaches us passing step, a 180 degree pivot, and sets us up for the next sequence (first repeating the same sequence to the right side, then pivoting into the "slant thrust kick", thereby creating a useful and symmetrical sequence of movement). 

Finally, it also shows us that we can be stable, defend ourselves (the double man-sau), and generate a powerful counter (the double front-palms) _even when we are standing on a "small platform"_ i.e. with our feet together. Very useful training. If you want to take it further, I suppose you could try it on the plum blossom piles. Myself, I have enough to work on standing on level ground! Anyway, that was a good question. Hopefully someone else can elaborate. _Oh Moooook? you there?_


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## izeqb (Apr 8, 2011)

geezer said:


> Finally, it also shows us that we can be stable, defend ourselves (the double man-sau), and generate a powerful counter (the double front-palms) _even when we are standing on a "small platform"_ i.e. with our feet together. Very useful training. If you want to take it further, I suppose you could try it on the plum blossom piles. Myself, I have enough to work on standing on level ground! Anyway, that was a good question.



My own thinking led me to something like this also... The ability to generate power from a very narrow stance... 

The fact of the matter is, that in most cases, when you get attacked (if you get attacked) you won't be in a wide stance. You'd be standing in a very narrow stance, so I guess it makes sence to train power generation from a narrow stance


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## yak sao (Apr 8, 2011)

izeqb said:


> That makes sense... Thank you for your trohugout reply
> 
> What about gathering the feet in the very narrow stance... Any explanation for that?


 

Hmmmmmm, You got me on this one.
.... I think geezer may be on to something though.


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## yak sao (Apr 8, 2011)

Could it also be an introduction to whipping force from BT form???


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## hunt1 (Apr 8, 2011)

You are not seeing the answer to your question because you a focusing on the foot work alone. What are your arms/upper body doing while your back leg is coming forward?


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## wtxs (Apr 8, 2011)

hunt1 said:


> You are not seeing the answer to your question because you a focusing on the foot work alone. What are your arms/upper body doing while your back leg is coming forward?



Intercept/deflect the upper attack while stepping forward to take his space, coming forward adds mass/power to your arm/body structure, add a center punch or side palm, etc. when planting the rear foot you can ... (additional comments goes here).


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## mook jong man (Apr 8, 2011)

To be perfectly honest I have never really thought about it , and all of the above answers seem pretty feasible to me.

But what I do know is that the action of turning from double Tan Sau to double Bong Sau can be used to propel someone off of you if they have both your hands trapped down low.
With the movement that has been dubbed " Seal Clapping " I have used that by instinct a couple of times in light hand sparring .

My student kept on coming in attacking my guard , trying to trap both my hands by using double Tan Sau's on the outside of both my arms .

But at that stage his force wasn't focused to well and instead of piercing through on the outside of my wrists and going forward , his force was really heavy and directed downwards.

So when he came in and I felt his force pressing down I ran both my hands around his forearms and ended up on top of his arms , I then did the  double Jut Sau move followed by a double palm strike to the chest.

The bit with the feet together , I wouldn't have the foggiest idea , but I have a feeling it could be an exercise to develop balance for those situations when you are surprise attacked and your stance is at way less than ideal width. 

Maybe even against someone trying to take you down by grappling low and attempting to wrap your legs up at the knees.
Don't know to be honest , I'm just thinking out loud.


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2011)

hunt1 said:


> You are not seeing the answer to your question because you a focusing on the foot work alone. What are your arms/upper body doing while your back leg is coming forward?


 
Good point. WC is a system, and the footwork functions as part of the _whole movement._ On the other hand, different groups perform this section somewhat differently. I originally learned form LT. I understand that his take on this was influenced by an incident in his youth where he was attacked by a guy swinging downward at his head with a Japanese _bokken_. He survived to win the encounter, but still bears a nasty scar from it on his forehead. After that he changed the upward movement a bit, making it the man-sau defense we now do. In applications, we train in a typical advancing-step position, not with our feet together as in the form... although _we do_ coordinate our rising man-sau with a forward movement of the rear foot. Hunt, perhaps you've had different experiences with this that could shed light on other meanings of pulling up the feet together?


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## izeqb (Apr 8, 2011)

hunt1 said:


> You are not seeing the answer to your question because you a focusing on the foot work alone. What are your arms/upper body doing while your back leg is coming forward?





wtxs said:


> Intercept/deflect the upper attack while stepping forward to take his space, coming forward adds mass/power to your arm/body structure, add a center punch or side palm, etc. when planting the rear foot you can ... (additional comments goes here).



I see your point, but wouldn't it make more sense to simply take yet another step forward, while raising your bong's, instead of simply doing as we do?

I mean, if the idea here is to take his space while using structure to keep ourself from falling, then it would make more sense (to me anyway) to simply take a regular wing chun advancing step...

But then again, I'm still a newbie-chunner and maybe this is something that's first completetly understood shen doing the long-pole form?


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## yak sao (Apr 8, 2011)

izeqb said:


> I see your point, but wouldn't it make more sense to simply take yet another step forward, while raising your bong's, instead of simply doing as we do?
> 
> I mean, if the idea here is to take his space while using structure to keep ourself from falling, then it would make more sense (to me anyway) to simply take a regular wing chun advancing step...
> 
> But then again, I'm still a newbie-chunner and *maybe this is something that's first completetly understood shen doing the long-pole form?*





That's been my experience. There are things in SNT that I can now fully appreciate because of BT. The wooden dummy has helped my understanding of CK and BT and on and on and on..........


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## izeqb (Apr 8, 2011)

yak sao said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> That's been my experience. There are things in SNT that I can now fully appreciate because of BT. The wooden dummy has helped my understanding of CK and BT and on and on and on..........



Yeah... I think I understand what you mean. For me personally, my understanding of SNT greatly improved when I learned CK and again, as I advance in other areas of my Wing Chun, again my understanding of the forms gets better / different...

By the way... I read somewhere that SNT was actually the form that was constructed last... I'll try to find the book where it was mentioned... just for fun


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## cwk (Apr 9, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Yeah... I think I understand what you mean. For me personally, my understanding of SNT greatly improved when I learned CK and again, as I advance in other areas of my Wing Chun, again my understanding of the forms gets better / different...
> 
> By the way... I read somewhere that SNT was actually the form that was constructed last... I'll try to find the book where it was mentioned... just for fun



I was told that SNT, CK and BT were originally one long form called Siu Lien Tao. It's still preserved and taught like this in my lineage and this is what I practice myself.


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## izeqb (Apr 9, 2011)

cwk said:


> I was told that SNT, CK and BT were originally one long form called Siu Lien Tao. It's still preserved and taught like this in my lineage and this is what I practice myself.



Interresting... What's the name of your linage?


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## Vajramusti (Apr 9, 2011)

The three had forms are devloped step by step-they take time in devlopment...they are conceptually linked. With proper devlopment they can merge into one form.

Re: the stepping  up section of chum kiu:

Chum kiu involves coordinated whole body motion. The stepping up is part of the footwork development process. When properly coordinated it devlops an addiitional skill of delivering power...with hands or foot.

Lots of applications can be discovered in that move.

joy chaudhuri


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## cwk (Apr 10, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Interresting... What's the name of your linage?



Cho family. aka cho ga ban chung wing chun


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## geezer (Apr 10, 2011)

Vajramusti said:


> Re: the stepping  up section of chum kiu:
> 
> Chum kiu involves coordinated whole body motion. The stepping up is part of the footwork development process. When properly coordinated it devlops an addiitional skill of delivering power...with hands or foot.
> 
> ...



I think the bolded part of Joy's comment is the best answer to the OP's question, and it pretty much holds true for all the movements in the forms. Like _Mook_ in his earlier post, I really hadn't thought much about this particular step until the question was asked. Then as I started pondering it, I began to see a lot of stuff there... and I'm sure there is a lot more that I'm not seeing. That _depth_ is what makes WC forms so endlessly fascinating and useful. You can't reduce each movement to a simple self-defense application.


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## Domino (Apr 12, 2011)

It changes from lineage but the jut sau is an important part before the 'seal clapping'.

Some other applications here from Wong Shun, no words but you get the idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB1pqkTgFY4&feature=related


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## izeqb (Apr 12, 2011)

Domino said:


> It changes from lineage but the jut sau is an important part before the 'seal clapping'.



In our linage (one of leung ting students) we do the "seal-clapping" / "super-high-bong-sau" before the jut-sau...


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## geezer (Apr 12, 2011)

izeqb said:


> In our linage (one of leung ting students) we do the "seal-clapping" / "super-high-bong-sau" before the jut-sau...


 
If it comes from LT's _WT_ then it would be a high double "man-sau" with the arms fully extended, the elbows straight and turned upward, with the hands turned "pinkie" upwards/thumb downwards. It is not a bent-arm _bong sau_. Using a bong sau to deflect a club is likely to get your arm broken! But I think we are actally saying the same thing... just using different terms.


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## izeqb (Apr 12, 2011)

geezer said:


> If it comes from LT's _WT_ then it would be a high double "man-sau" with the arms fully extended, the elbows straight and turned upward, with the hands turned "pinkie" upwards/thumb downwards. It is not a bent-arm _bong sau_. Using a bong sau to deflect a club is likely to get your arm broken! But I think we are actally saying the same thing... just using different terms.



The term "high bong-sau" is just my way of describing it, in lack of the correct term 

When you're referring to that movement as a high man-sau, do you mean "seeking/ asking hand"?

And what would be the benefit/reason of using your man-sau like that?


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## mook jong man (Apr 12, 2011)

izeqb said:


> The term "high bong-sau" is just my way of describing it, in lack of the correct term
> 
> When you're referring to that movement as a high man-sau, do you mean "seeking/ asking hand"?
> 
> *And what would be the benefit/reason of using your man-sau like that*?



I'm not LT lineage , but the reason for the Man Sau , if we take the example of the overhead club attack is that the force of the club will slide straight down the outside of the  forearm where as if you tried a Bong Sau you would be taking the impact on one point and as Geezer said you'd get your arm broken.


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## yak sao (Apr 12, 2011)

The high man sau is what you get if bong sau is able to extend. Imagine pushing a branch out of the way and then letting it go to allow it to spring back. That is what your bong sau is doing. Bong sau is not a technique in and of itself, but a half technique....it wants to spring outward.
Also, in the BT form, there is the "side" man sau.


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## Domino (May 5, 2011)

izeqb said:


> In our linage (one of leung ting students) we do the "seal-clapping" / "super-high-bong-sau" before the jut-sau...



Yes I am familiar with that although not my lineage, horses for courses so to speak


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