# What is real Hapkido?



## Dwi Chugi

Hello all. After reading a lot of great threads here on martial talk I have decided to start my first thread. 

I have read several threads on what is true Hapkido vs hybrid Hapkido. I was going to call this "what is traditional Hapkido" but I am thinking that is too broad due to the fact each school has its own traditions. Anyways, I know it is said by Hapkidoin that Grandmaster Choi, learned aiki-jujitsu from Takeda Sensei in Japan for 30 years and was one of the only students of Takéda to learn all 3000 moves.  GM Choi moved back to Korea in 1945 or 46 after being gone for 30 some odd years and starts teaching Yawara or Aiki-jujitsu. He later started calling his art Yu-Sul and it took several other names as well until the name was given to the art we so dearly love. 

Now, under the umbrella of Hapkido we have different federations and associations. Within the federations and associations we have different kwans or schools. There was only one Choi Dojunim. He had a lot of students that became masters who had lots of students that have become masters and so on.  A lot has been added to the art. 

My linage goes Choi to Jung Hwan Park to Ron Berry to Me. Now, I have learned directly under Park, the majority of my Hapkido has come from Master Berry. I know there are people on this thread that are closer to Choi in linage then me and that is fine. I am proud of where I come from. 

Both my master and grandmaster have served in the special ops in conflicts around the world. I worked as a bouncer and as a body guard for different groups performing here in Daytona.  My grandmaster and master's preform their Hapkido very simular. My Hapkido is a little different. I'm a lot taller with longer limbs than my masters and so I have to adapt my technique but my principles are the same as theirs. I have also taken into affect that even though the human body has not changed, how they use the body as a weapon has. Judo as we know it today, is the the same Judo in the 1950's or 60's. Taekwondo today has changed. Karate is not the same. Fighting is not the same. 

Master Park has admitted to adapting his Hapkido. Master Berry; I know has adapted his art, though his HKD looks more like GM Parks than mine.  I have added techniques to my Hapkido and taken out the techniques that do not work as well now a days. I work on ground techniques because I am more likely to be attached by a wrestler or a BJJ fighter today than I would have been in yesteryear. 

I call what I do, "MuSool Hapkido" because I feel like I use the principles of Hapkido but I add other martial techniques "MuSool" into what I teach. How many other schools add/take way techniques? Has Hapkido changed over time? Is what some of us teaching really hapkido? I know it may not be Choi's Hapkido but is that ok?  If its not ok, should we come up with a different name or the Kwan we teach enough? 

By the way, MuSool Hapkido is not a Kwan and is more of what I teach at my dojang because I know it works for me.  

I would like to keep this friendly. I'm just raising some questions that have been implied on this Forum.


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## Doomx2001

Dwi Chugi said:


> How many other schools add/take way techniques?



Well, I take it that you may actually mean 'styles' instead of schools. In the case of styles, there many different styles of Hapkido with similar curriculum's but differ in execution of techniques, and how many techniques they teach. 

Also, individual schools within a said style may supplement their training with something they feel complements Hapkido. For example: A teacher may incorparate Tai Chi 'feeling' exercises in Hapkido as a way to help his students to feel when their attacker pushes or pulls. Other instructors for example, may do the opposite, and instead of adding to the curriculum, they may instead take out techniques that they deem impractical. 




Dwi Chugi said:


> Has Hapkido changed over time?



Well, for one thing, alot has actually been added to Hapkido. Ji Han Jae added high kicks, and spin kicks to Hapkido as well as some Ki Exercises (which they're may have been ki exercises taught by GM Choi, but I don't know for sure). 
It is through Ji Han Jae's Hapkido lineage that most people are actually learning. I would say that it makes up of 60% of Hapkido schools. They all trace back to Ji Han Jae's version of Hapkido.

The other additions to Hapkido come from two sets of brothers. First, In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo. Second, Joo Bang Lee and his brother Joo Sang Lee. These four people along with a few unknown others developed what is called Kuk Sool (National Skill or National Art). 
In Hyuk Suh is said to have studied kung fu. What style people don't seem to sure on, it could be Taiji Mantis or Sip Pal Gi (18 methods). The story goes that because GM Choi was so expensive to train under that In Sun Seo would train in Hapkido (he got a 3rd dan or gup under Choi) and In Hyuk Suh would study kung fu. At the end of the day, the brothers would train together exchanging what they had learned. We know that Joo Bang Lee studied with GM Choi for a time, but I don't know how long. But these Masters all trained together, and knew each other in martial art circles of the time. 

So these men developed Kuk Sool, but as it usually goes with martial arts, they were divided on things, and went their separate way. In Hyuk Suh ended up with Kuk Sool Won which is mix of Ji Han Jae's version of Hapkido and Kung fu. Joo Bang Lee on the other hand founded Hwarang Do, which is very similar to Kuk Sool Won, but things differ here and there in the Hwarang Do curriculum.  These two styles are also among the first to incorparte forms or hyung into Hapkido with the exception of the World Hapkido Federation. Kuk Sool also incorparates a larger number of weapons and weapon techniques. 
The two Hapkido like styles (Kuk Sool Won and HwarangDo) are similar just as Uechi ryu and Gojo ryu similar to one another. Or maybe how Chen Taiji quan and Yang Taiji quan relate to one another but are different. Kuk Sool related schools probably make up about 40% or more of the Hapkido schools you will encounter. 

Finally the last group of Hapkido would be the die hard traditionalist (which all Hapkido for the most part is traditional). What I mean is Orthodox Hapkido. The Hapkido that GM Choi Yong Sul taught. There are at least 3 groups that teach GM Choi's Hapkido to my knowledge and they are: Jungki Kwan, Yong Sul Kwan Hapkiyusul, and Rim's Hapkido Association. Of course I've not trained in neither of these three, but I have seen videos, and they are very similar with the exception of Hapkiyusul where the grandmaster there teaches pure Hapki (Aiki) techniques at a certain level. All these schools I've metioned make up about 3% of the Hapkido schools out there. 

But, back to the origianl point, yes, Hapkido continues to change and evolve with the exception of the orthodox Hapkido schools (and thats not a bad thing). Both in Korea and in the Western world. 

One quick example of this is: GM Choi's Hapkido, then high level kicks are added creating Sin Moo Hapkido, then kung fu and forms are added to create Hwarang Do, and then Hapkido morphs again creating Farang Mu Sul by adding ground work, trapping, and few other things. 



Dwi Chugi said:


> Is what some of us teaching really hapkido?



I would say overall yes. Essentially, in my mind, real Hapkido employs joint locks, hand strikes, and kicks (waist level and below). Also, I would note that Ki Exercise, and meditaion are a important part of Hapkido (although I'm not sure if the founder taught the two). I think forms can play a positive roll, but are not neccessary. 

But if what your asking is what most people practice is Choi's Hapkido, well, I think the techniques look identical, but in the end Choi's Hapkido opperates on principles missing from other Hapkido styles. The reason for this is he ran a tough class, and he was expensive. Because of this, many students would at the most make black belt, some would get their 3rd gup black belt. But that is pretty much it. Many of Gm Choi's lower rank black belts went on to found their own Hapkido styles/schools without the full knowledge of the art. 

One quick example of this is the founder of Yong Sul Kwan Hapkiyusul (Kim Yoon-Sang) began his study of Hapkido in the early 1960s under Master Chang Gedo, eventually reaching a grade of 5th Dan within the Korea Hapkido Association. 
GM Kim wanted to learn more, so he sought out GM Choi. 
When Kim arrived at Choi Yong Sul's Dojang he was asked                      to describe what training experience he had. He replied confidently                      that he had a 5th Dan in Hapkido. So Choi told him to put                      on his uniform and try what he new. Choi told him to try with                      a high school student who was there. He was not able to move                      Choi's young student.

                   Choi told him to give him his black belt and than made him                      wear a white belt.

Anyway, not many people stayed with GM Choi to learn the true essence of Hapkido. These men went on to found their own styles, in some cases, doing 'sloppy' hapkido - watering down what Choi taught.  At any rate, regardless of the style, for the most part, were all learning Hapkido, just not orthodox Hapkido.



Dwi Chugi said:


> I know it may not be Choi's Hapkido but is that ok?  If its not ok, should we come up with a different name or the Kwan we teach enough?



Yeah, I think it is ok. In fact, I think that it is a good thing that there are so many styles of Hapkido. Becasue, it gives us options of what kind of Hapkido would like to study. If you want more straight forward, non-flashy Hapkido, I would say go with Jungki Kwan. If you want a curriculum that has a little bit everything, then Kuk Sool might be your cup of tea. Or maybe you really want something that has kicks similar to TaeKwondo but with Hapkido self defense, then maybe Sin Moo Hapkido is the way to go. (By the way, these are just quick comparisons of these, so please don't anyone get offended). 
The point is, because there is so much variety, there is something for everyone. The only thing I think people should consider is that we should also preserve GM Choi's Hapkido so it can be passed on to future generations. As long as that is being done, then all these different styles is a good thing. 

And as for coming up with a different name for Hapkido should it not stay true to GM Choi's Hapkido, some people have already done that. I think what it comes down too, is that, regardless of the Hapkido style you study, put all your heart into it, learn all you can from your instuctor, learn from other instructors & even white belts for they can teach you something from time to time, experiment with techniques, and always keep an open mind. 

Anyway, this post is full of facts and OPINIONS, so take it for what is worth. I hope I have been helpful, and maybe helped a little in your research. 


 - Brian


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## zDom

Good posts.

I appreciate that some are trying to preserve "Choi's hapkido."

We are doing the same here at Moo Sul Kwan with "Lee H. Park's hapkido" (based on Won Kwang-wha's Musulkwan hapkido &#8212; also the source of the hapkido style of Dr. Kimm's hapkido).

I would post on what I think is "real hapkido" but I don't have the time at them moment to craft a carefully-worded opinion. 

(I keep running into the consequences of posting anything less)


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## Dwi Chugi

Thank you Brian and Scott for your imputs and I value everyone that has something to offer.


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## Kong Soo Do

I think it is important to add that _real_ Hapkido comes from _real_ DRAJJ.  The principles of these, and other arts can trace their lineage back quite a ways.  I've often opined that Hapkido, Aiki Jujutsu, Chin Na and other arts may have subtle nuances but effectually the principles and techniques are functionally the same in the conclusion.  One group or another, within any of these labels, may claim ownership of the art, or purist lineage etc, but from the perspective of SD, which these arts are based upon, the proof is going to be in the pudding so-to-speak.  If it _really_ works, on _real_ bad guys in_ real _situations then it is real Hapkido (or AJJ or Chin Na or whatever).


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## iron_ox

Hapkido is the Art of Choi Dojunim, many of his students added things that might or might not actually be part of the principles.  The vast majority of these students were low or medium ranked that never learned the entire curriculum.

Hapkido seems to be unique in that we use a ranking system that many people simply ignore.  Choi Dojunim ranked 4 men to 9th dan, and yet how many make that claim, or rank to 10th dan even.  

"Real" Shotokan is the art of Funakoshi Sensei, when you say you study Shotokan, people know what you mean.  If however, your instructor is a 3rd Dan Shotokan, and he ranks you to 9th dan Shotokan, it would be seen as suspect - yet this happens in Hapkido all the time and people blinker their eyes and pretend the rank has value.

The main issue is that these low and mid ranked students do not know all the curriculum....as such, they are often not actually passing on Hapkido at all.  And it is amazing that people say they have a connection back to Choi Dojunim - EVERYONE doing Hapkido has a connection to Choi Dojunim, but the reality is that the connection may only be a passing one as the instructors might actually have low rank, and may be issuing rank far higher than their own rank.


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## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> I think it is important to add that _real_ Hapkido comes from _real_ DRAJJ.  The principles of these, and other arts can trace their lineage back quite a ways.  I've often opined that Hapkido, Aiki Jujutsu, Chin Na and other arts may have subtle nuances but effectually the principles and techniques are functionally the same in the conclusion.  One group or another, within any of these labels, may claim ownership of the art, or purist lineage etc, but from the perspective of SD, which these arts are based upon, the proof is going to be in the pudding so-to-speak.  If it _really_ works, on _real_ bad guys in_ real _situations then it is real Hapkido (or AJJ or Chin Na or whatever).



I have to agree that good technique is good technique, but because it works does not make it good Hapkido.  Hapkido is actually unique is some ways compared to say Chin Na, so I would have to say that the Art of Choi Dojunim is "Real Hapkido" - but in a life or death situation, hopefully you have been taught good technique - Hapkido would qualify, but so would other arts.


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## iron_ox

This is a very good post, and I want Brian to know I am not making a critique of the information, but some corrections to some of the information, as well as a perspective of someone that has been involved with the Choi Dojunim root of the art for more than 30 years.  

And, um, it may make me "arrogant and closed minded" - but after 30+ years, I hope I am able to educate/discuss things with those that choose to do so.




Doomx2001 said:


> Well, I take it that you may actually mean 'styles' instead of schools. In the case of styles, there many different styles of Hapkido with similar curriculum's but differ in execution of techniques, and how many techniques they teach.



Hapkido is a single style - the style of Choi Dojunim, other than that, there are variants - some better, some worse.



Doomx2001 said:


> Also, individual schools within a said style may supplement their training with something they feel complements Hapkido. For example: A teacher may incorparate Tai Chi 'feeling' exercises in Hapkido as a way to help his students to feel when their attacker pushes or pulls. Other instructors for example, may do the opposite, and instead of adding to the curriculum, they may instead take out techniques that they deem impractical.



While I feel that anyone can add what they want, If someone feels they need to "add" to Hapkido it makes sense that they learn the entire curriculum.  If they choose to not do that, it would make sense to give what they do a different name.






Doomx2001 said:


> Well, for one thing, alot has actually been added to Hapkido. Ji Han Jae added high kicks, and spin kicks to Hapkido as well as some Ki Exercises (which they're may have been ki exercises taught by GM Choi, but I don't know for sure).
> It is through Ji Han Jae's Hapkido lineage that most people are actually learning. I would say that it makes up of 60% of Hapkido schools. They all trace back to Ji Han Jae's version of Hapkido.



Ji never learned the entire curriculum from Choi Dojunim, and adding the material he did is not compatible with the principles of the art of Choi Dojunim.  Ji did however rename what he does, calling it Sin Moo, so its easy to know he is teaching a varient of Hapkido and not the original art.



Doomx2001 said:


> The other additions to Hapkido come from two sets of brothers. First, In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo. Second, Joo Bang Lee and his brother Joo Sang Lee. These four people along with a few unknown others developed what is called Kuk Sool (National Skill or National Art).
> In Hyuk Suh is said to have studied kung fu. What style people don't seem to sure on, it could be Taiji Mantis or Sip Pal Gi (18 methods). The story goes that because GM Choi was so expensive to train under that In Sun Seo would train in Hapkido (he got a 3rd dan or gup under Choi) and In Hyuk Suh would study kung fu. At the end of the day, the brothers would train together exchanging what they had learned. We know that Joo Bang Lee studied with GM Choi for a time, but I don't know how long. But these Masters all trained together, and knew each other in martial art circles of the time.
> 
> So these men developed Kuk Sool, but as it usually goes with martial arts, they were divided on things, and went their separate way. In Hyuk Suh ended up with Kuk Sool Won which is mix of Ji Han Jae's version of Hapkido and Kung fu. Joo Bang Lee on the other hand founded Hwarang Do, which is very similar to Kuk Sool Won, but things differ here and there in the Hwarang Do curriculum.  These two styles are also among the first to incorparte forms or hyung into Hapkido with the exception of the World Hapkido Federation. Kuk Sool also incorparates a larger number of weapons and weapon techniques.
> The two Hapkido like styles (Kuk Sool Won and HwarangDo) are similar just as Uechi ryu and Gojo ryu similar to one another. Or maybe how Chen Taiji quan and Yang Taiji quan relate to one another but are different. Kuk Sool related schools probably make up about 40% or more of the Hapkido schools you will encounter.



According to the Founders of Kuk Sool and HwarangDo they are not Hapkido, but since in recent years they have both tried to connect themselves to Choi Dojunim the reality of their training should be more open.  Suh In Hyuk never trained in Hapkido, and his brother Seo In Sun got a first dan from Choi Dojunim's Dojang (which means he most likey actually trained with an instructor of Choi Dojunim's).  Now that there has been an issue between the brothers, Seo In Sun is now claiming a 10th Dan in Hapkido - after 4 decades of claiming he had no rank in Hapkido.

Joo Bang Lee is making many claims about his connection Choi Dojunim, but according to many that I have spoken to in Daegu that trained with Choi Dojunim for decades, the Lee brothers never trained directly with Choi Dojunim except in seminars in Seoul.  However, there is a training history between the Lee bothers and Suh/Seo coming from the same training background, which may have had some exposure to Choi Dojunim, but certainly not what they claim on their respective sites.



Doomx2001 said:


> Finally the last group of Hapkido would be the die hard traditionalist (which all Hapkido for the most part is traditional). What I mean is Orthodox Hapkido. The Hapkido that GM Choi Yong Sul taught. There are at least 3 groups that teach GM Choi's Hapkido to my knowledge and they are: Jungki Kwan, Yong Sul Kwan Hapkiyusul, and Rim's Hapkido Association. Of course I've not trained in neither of these three, but I have seen videos, and they are very similar with the exception of Hapkiyusul where the grandmaster there teaches pure Hapki (Aiki) techniques at a certain level. All these schools I've metioned make up about 3% of the Hapkido schools out there.



Two of the instructors are 9th dans from Choi Dojunim, Grandmaster Lim Hyun Soo and Grandmaster Kim Yun Sang.  The Third is a 7th Dan from Choi Dojunim, Master Rim Jung Bae in Maryland; there is also Master Chung Kee Tae (7th Dan) In Ontario; Master Jung Hwan Park (6th dan), Florida; and of course Chang Chin Il Dojunim (9th Dan), current head of Hapkido, living in New York.

But, back to the origianl point, yes, Hapkido continues to change and evolve with the exception of the orthodox Hapkido schools (and thats not a bad thing). Both in Korea and in the Western world. 



Doomx2001 said:


> One quick example of this is: GM Choi's Hapkido, then high level kicks are added creating Sin Moo Hapkido, then kung fu and forms are added to create Hwarang Do, and then Hapkido morphs again creating Farang Mu Sul by adding ground work, trapping, and few other things.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say overall yes. Essentially, in my mind, real Hapkido employs joint locks, hand strikes, and kicks (waist level and below). Also, I would note that Ki Exercise, and meditaion are a important part of Hapkido (although I'm not sure if the founder taught the two). I think forms can play a positive roll, but are not neccessary.



The Founder only died in 1986 - not much eveloution is really necessary...IMHO.



Doomx2001 said:


> But if what your asking is what most people practice is Choi's Hapkido, well, I think the techniques look identical, but in the end Choi's Hapkido opperates on principles missing from other Hapkido styles. The reason for this is he ran a tough class, and he was expensive. Because of this, many students would at the most make black belt, some would get their 3rd gup black belt. But that is pretty much it. Many of Gm Choi's lower rank black belts went on to found their own Hapkido styles/schools without the full knowledge of the art.



Well noted, but according to many that trained with Choi Dojunim, he often charged what he thought someone could afford, but a good point.



Doomx2001 said:


> One quick example of this is the founder of Yong Sul Kwan Hapkiyusul (Kim Yoon-Sang) began his study of Hapkido in the early 1960s under Master Chang Gedo, eventually reaching a grade of 5th Dan within the Korea Hapkido Association.
> GM Kim wanted to learn more, so he sought out GM Choi.
> When Kim arrived at Choi Yong Sul's Dojang he was asked                      to describe what training experience he had. He replied confidently                      that he had a 5th Dan in Hapkido. So Choi told him to put                      on his uniform and try what he new. Choi told him to try with                      a high school student who was there. He was not able to move                      Choi's young student.
> 
> Choi told him to give him his black belt and than made him                      wear a white belt.
> 
> Anyway, not many people stayed with GM Choi to learn the true essence of Hapkido. These men went on to found their own styles, in some cases, doing 'sloppy' hapkido - watering down what Choi taught.



Nice point.



Doomx2001 said:


> At any rate, regardless of the style, for the most part, were all learning Hapkido, just not orthodox Hapkido.



Hmmmm....maybe in parts....





Doomx2001 said:


> Yeah, I think it is ok. In fact, I think that it is a good thing that there are so many styles of Hapkido. Becasue, it gives us options of what kind of Hapkido would like to study. If you want more straight forward, non-flashy Hapkido, I would say go with Jungki Kwan. If you want a curriculum that has a little bit everything, then Kuk Sool might be your cup of tea. Or maybe you really want something that has kicks similar to TaeKwondo but with Hapkido self defense, then maybe Sin Moo Hapkido is the way to go. (By the way, these are just quick comparisons of these, so please don't anyone get offended).
> The point is, because there is so much variety, there is something for everyone. The only thing I think people should consider is that we should also preserve GM Choi's Hapkido so it can be passed on to future generations. As long as that is being done, then all these different styles is a good thing.
> 
> And as for coming up with a different name for Hapkido should it not stay true to GM Choi's Hapkido, some people have already done that. I think what it comes down too, is that, regardless of the Hapkido style you study, put all your heart into it, learn all you can from your instuctor, learn from other instructors & even white belts for they can teach you something from time to time, experiment with techniques, and always keep an open mind.



Again nice point, I would have preferred if those that did not actually have the entire curriculum just give their material a different name.



Doomx2001 said:


> Anyway, this post is full of facts and OPINIONS, so take it for what is worth. I hope I have been helpful, and maybe helped a little in your research.
> 
> 
> - Brian



Great post Brian.  It is good that people are starting to research Choi Dojunim and his art, it will lead to greater understanding and training in Hapkido.


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## Doomx2001

My only two things to add to what you said would be this: When I say most people learn and trace Hapkido to Ji Han Jae, I'm saying most people are practicing Ji Han Jae's version of Hapkido. And I agree that the kicks he and his peers added to Hapkido goes against the original 'spirit' of Hapkido, which is efficiency, being practical. 
Thats why I said in my post that probably less the 10% practice Choi's Hapkido. 

The other quick point or explanation I was wanting to say is that I probably have been choosing the use of the word 'evolution' poorly. Evolution suggests a improvement on a species making it more easily to survive. But, as it relates to Hapkido, I have been using the word evolution when I should have used 'change' or 'alter'. That was what I was intending in the first place, my bad. That was a brain fart on my part.


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## bushido

Hmmm...
Sorry for posting on so many of these threads guys...just started looking through the posts and picking a few here and there to add to or comment on...
Given that, lol

this is a loaded question really...
Our founder was a governmental assassin who had a pig farm as a cover...
My subumnim is 3rd gen HKD'ist, Korean born citizen.  I place a lot of faith in the history that I have been passed or have learned.

And here, we are only passing gas, because none of us was there...so, that said...
I was taught that as a HKD'ist, we are thieves.  We steal from that that works.  We have nothing new, we have nothing unique.  If it works in combat, if we can explain it in science, and if it compliments the way we move, we steal it...if not, we discard it.

What is HKD?  
A practical and scientific approach to combat.
We use Grey's anatomy to teach the body...an Orange belt must be able to name every bone in the body, trace the main arteries, and hit 20 pressure points within 30 seconds starting with the finger tips and working up the arm...

What is "Real" HKD?  I don't know...
I gave up a long time ago trying to sort out the political and in house fractures...I don't even debate them any more.

If it works for you, if it fills the empty void you have...than it is real!

Every one here has experienced the HKD phenomenon...what more are you looking for?
[h=3][/h]


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## iron_ox

bushido said:


> Hmmm...
> Sorry for posting on so many of these threads guys...just started looking through the posts and picking a few here and there to add to or comment on...
> Given that, lol
> 
> this is a loaded question really...
> Our founder was a governmental assassin who had a pig farm as a cover...



I assume this is in jest.  There is not any real proof Choi Dojunim was ever an assassin, he MIGHT have worked to round up deserters during WWII, but that has never been proven either, and he was certainly not working as a pig farmer as a cover, but rather to feed his family.



bushido said:


> My subumnim is 3rd gen HKD'ist, Korean born citizen.  I place a lot of faith in the history that I have been passed or have learned.
> 
> And here, we are only passing gas, because none of us was there...so, that said...



While we may not have been there, there are plenty still alive who were, and what they have to say should finally be taken into account.




bushido said:


> I was taught that as a HKD'ist, we are thieves.  We steal from that that works.  We have nothing new, we have nothing unique.  If it works in combat, if we can explain it in science, and if it compliments the way we move, we steal it...if not, we discard it.



Here I am going to completely disagree.  What Choi Dojunim taught on the Korean Peninsula was radically unique - nothing like it was being taught there at all.  Hapkido is not a random collection of stuff cobbled together.  While Choi Dojunim made some revisions to what he taught over the years, he was very consistent in his technical expectations of his students.  What he taught was SO unique in fact it spawned a multitude of other "arts" and sub-variants.  Hapkido has no need to "steal" from anything else, and while I mean NO disrespect at all, if you are being taught that is does, this is incorrect. 



bushido said:


> What is HKD?
> A practical and scientific approach to combat.



Don't know about scientific, but Choi Dojunim's material is certainly practical.



bushido said:


> What is "Real" HKD?  I don't know...
> I gave up a long time ago trying to sort out the political and in house fractures...I don't even debate them any more.
> 
> If it works for you, if it fills the empty void you have...than it is real!
> 
> Every one here has experienced the HKD phenomenon...what more are you looking for?



While you don't have to debate the merits of the various groups, you should be aware of them, and their relationship to Choi Dojunim.  There is no Hapkido without him - and there is no other that can claim to have added to his curriculum that learned the entire thing.  Having spoken to men that earned 8th and 9th dans from Choi Dojunim, they felt no compelling need to "add" anything....

If something works for someone, that's AWESOME! But is it Hapkido? Well, only if it is Hapkido.

Nice post, keep them coming to stimulate discussion!


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## bushido

lol, I'll try to keep it interesting 

"I assume this is in jest.  There is not any real proof Choi Dojunim was ever an assassin"

Now, I never knew or met Mister Choi...But, I certainly know a man who was trained by him...and that is the history as I was told it.
Is it true...I don't know, but I trust the source enough to think that it might be...and enough to know that it may just be part of his flair for drama, lol

As for being thieves...there is very little in HKD that is original.  The joint breaks are not ours, the throws were assimilated from existing styles, hand strikes are from various sources.  The internal aspects were not invented by Choi either, and certainly not the discovery of pressure points.
About the only unique styling we have is the way we kick.  You might argue about the throws, buy all that was really done, was that we applied our foot work to an existing style.
The introduction of the cane was original as far as I know though.
We all take great pride in HKD...so please do not take me wrong in saying any of this Kevin.  Choi did what he did, and he did it well, and we each have prospered from it.  But it is the end product that is unique, not the individual pieces.  I had a BB in Yudo long before HKD...I knew all the throws and then some when I started training, and better than my teachers...I just had different foot work.  Some forms of HKD that I have seen use linear strikes, some circular...but none of them are unique in any way.  
No, we are truly thieves...but on this, I doubt if either of us is going to alter the belief of the other 

"If something works for someone, that's AWESOME! But is it Hapkido? Well, only if it is Hapkido."

True enough...But, Choi did make changes...I will dig out some early footage and you can compare them to his HKD in the late 70's and early 80's...some is similar, some smoother, some different.  He did not wake up one day with HKD.  It was a concept, it got reorganized, refined, added to and subtracted from until he had what he wanted.  Then it became consistant.

At any rate, none of this is to be rude or any thing else...I respect all who have gone before me, and certainly Choi Dojunim.  I am just expressing an opinion, and we all know what they are worth


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## Dwi Chugi

bushido said:


> lol, I'll try to keep it interesting
> 
> "I assume this is in jest.  There is not any real proof Choi Dojunim was ever an assassin"
> 
> Now, I never knew or met Mister Choi...But, I certainly know a man who was trained by him...and that is the history as I was told it.
> Is it true...I don't know, but I trust the source enough to think that it might be...and enough to know that it may just be part of his flair for drama, lol
> 
> As for being thieves...there is very little in HKD that is original.  The joint breaks are not ours, the throws were assimilated from existing styles, hand strikes are from various sources.  The internal aspects were not invented by Choi either, and certainly not the discovery of pressure points.
> About the only unique styling we have is the way we kick.  You might argue about the throws, buy all that was really done, was that we applied our foot work to an existing style.
> The introduction of the cane was original as far as I know though.
> We all take great pride in HKD...so please do not take me wrong in saying any of this Kevin.  Choi did what he did, and he did it well, and we each have prospered from it.  But it is the end product that is unique, not the individual pieces.  I had a BB in Yudo long before HKD...I knew all the throws and then some when I started training, and better than my teachers...I just had different foot work.  Some forms of HKD that I have seen use linear strikes, some circular...but none of them are unique in any way.
> No, we are truly thieves...but on this, I doubt if either of us is going to alter the belief of the other
> 
> "If something works for someone, that's AWESOME! But is it Hapkido? Well, only if it is Hapkido."
> 
> True enough...But, Choi did make changes...I will dig out some early footage and you can compare them to his HKD in the late 70's and early 80's...some is similar, some smoother, some different.  He did not wake up one day with HKD.  It was a concept, it got reorganized, refined, added to and subtracted from until he had what he wanted.  Then it became consistant.
> 
> At any rate, none of this is to be rude or any thing else...I respect all who have gone before me, and certainly Choi Dojunim.  I am just expressing an opinion, and we all know what they are worth



Hello Bushido and welcome to Martialtalk, it is great to have you and your opinions on the art that we love.

I do not believe that you posted anything rude and Martialtalk is an opinion based forum so you will find many of them on here, mine included.  Take them as what they are, opinions and ideals of others that have the same passion for this great art as you.  Martial Arts is like a religion and Hapkido a sub-religion.  Everyone thinks theirs is better and are willing to go to war over it.  

I believe Doomx2001 had a great response on people's vision on what is real or true Hapkido in his above post.  As Doomx2001 points out, there are some Orthodox Hapkido Kwans that believe they teach a un-touched version of Hapkido that the founder, Grandmaster Choi instructed.  There are some kwans that follow Ji's Sin Moo Hapkido.  And there are some styles that follow this master's or that master's system or kwan of Hapkido.  Some of the Kwans are good; some, well they do not do the name "Hapkido" any justice.

I believe the term Hapkido has became a generic name (like Jujitsu or Karate) because the forefathers did very little to ensure that Hapkido stayed united.  Hapkido is used quite a bit and can not be copyrighted because of the fact that so many people use it.  It would be like copyrighting the term "coffee".  You can copyright "Starbucks Coffee" but not the term "coffee" itself.  It is kind of a mess, really.  My hat is off to the Orthodox Hapkidoin like Master Sogor and the kwan he belongs too, Jungki Kwan Hapkido.  I think they are doing a great job passing on the tradition that Master Choi would want.  I believe Orthodox Hapkido works great, otherwise it would not have been around for so long and Choi would not have used it so successfully against other Martial Artist.

I think Mr. Sogor's above post make some great points in the fact that Master Choi was a pig farmer to feed his family.  I have never heard of him being an assassin, actually, I heard he was a bodyguard.  I did read that he worked with Takeda in hunting down and capturing Japanese WWII deserters; but killing them, I have never heard.

As you pointed out, we were not there to hear Master Choi's version or his take on his own life or even Hapkido.  There is a video or two but the quality is poor and Master Choi spoke with a heavy Japanese accent. Master Sogor has a point that  there are plenty of Masters still alive that were there.  I take this with a grain of salt as well.  Sometimes things get inflated and mixed up over time.  Sometimes on purpose, sometimes to feed ones own ego.  I think some master's have a better grip on that sort of stuff then other masters do.  I think Master Sogor would agree with me on this.

I think "today's" Hapkido can be broken down like this:
True Orthodox Traditional Hapkido instructed, as believed by the master, just like Grandmaster Choi taught.
Traditional Hapkido with outside techniques that has influinces based on True Hapki Theories as believed by that master.
Traditional Hapkido with outside influinces that has some techiques based on True Hapki Theories and some non-True Hapki Techniques.
Non-Traditional Hoshinsool (self-defense) techniques that work not based on Hapki Theories but they like the name Hapkido.
And the people that have not a clue what Hapkido is but they think Hapkido is a cool name.

Here is my belief on my system of Hapkido:
My master's, I believed, shared with me about 95% true real Orthodox Hapkido.  My grandmaster was also a black belt in Judo and a grandmaster in Taekwondo so I am pretty sure some of the Judo rubbed off.  Both my Grandmaster and Master never mixed Taekwondo kicks or strikes into the Hapkido classes though. 

I would go and say that I teach 90% true Orthodox Hapkido to my students.  At the lower levels I start them off with more Yusool "lever" type of techniques based on some Hapki Theories because it is a lot easier to learn than true straight up Hapkido.  After I know they would be safe in a true street encounter, I then start sharing with them the inter-workings of what I believe is true Hapkido that was passed down from Master Choi to Master Park (to me at times) or to Master Berry to me.

I added the term "MuSool" which means "Martial Technique" in front of my Hapkido name.  This is because the name of my dojang is "MuSool Academy" and I teach Hapkido with some other Hapki theory based martial technique in my Hapkido school.  I did not invent a new style by any means.

Anyways; Bushido, that is my two cents and once again, welcome aboard.


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## bushido

Hi Shelby, thanks for the warm welcome, I appreciate it 
Nice summary of HKD as it is now a days.  I know personally, that that my style of HKD is not a purists version of Choi's teachings...I know it and that is fine for me.  But we are HapKiDo none the less 
I think we would fall into your second catagory...


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## Dwi Chugi

bushido said:


> Hi Shelby, thanks for the warm welcome, I appreciate it
> Nice summary of HKD as it is now a days.  I know personally, that that my style of HKD is not a purists version of Choi's teachings...I know it and that is fine for me.  But we are HapKiDo none the less
> I think we would fall into your second catagory...



Hello Bushido, no problem.  I know we love to hear new ideas on theories.  Even though we all do not agree on Hapkido theories at times, I think we all respect each other enough to listen to each other's ideas.  

I would say 95% of all Hapkido is either in the 2nd or 3rd catagory.  Two percent would be your Orthodox Hapkido and and 3% of people that think Hapkido is a cool name so lets call our style that.  That is by no means scientific.  

I would say I would fall into the second catagory as well, but I do teach a non-Hapkido theory based technique from time to time.

Where are you from?  Are you an instructor?


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## bushido

I am from Ontario, Canada.
At the present, no, I do not teach...not for over a year now.  Closed the gym, our web site is down now too.  My main reason for teaching was always to provide a variety of bodies for my 2 youngin's to advance.  Now one is 21, the other 19.  I started them when they were 6 and 5 respectivly, and I feel I have prepared them as far as possible, so my role is done   I still have a full gym at home for them to work out or if I ever want to train with some one.  As for making money, there are easier ways to make more than operating an independant club.  It can be a hard business if it were to be your sole source of income...HKD hurts, it's hard to keep good numbers to pay the bills, lol


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## Dwi Chugi

bushido said:


> I am from Ontario, Canada.
> At the present, no, I do not teach...not for over a year now.  Closed the gym, our web site is down now too.  My main reason for teaching was always to provide a variety of bodies for my 2 youngin's to advance.  Now one is 21, the other 19.  I started them when they were 6 and 5 respectivly, and I feel I have prepared them as far as possible, so my role is done   I still have a full gym at home for them to work out or if I ever want to train with some one.  As for making money, there are easier ways to make more than operating an independant club.  It can be a hard business if it were to be your sole source of income...HKD hurts, it's hard to keep good numbers to pay the bills, lol



Your Hapkido hurts!? Well, that means you are doing something right. Lol. 

I agree we are not selling icecream or hamburgers but blood, sweat, tears and lots of pain. 

I run a full time school but 70% of my students are Taekwondo. The 30% Hapkido don't put a dent into my income to operate the Dojang. 

I believe you taught for noble reasons raising your children in your Hapkido. My oldest trains Taekwondo full time and we are starting our first under teen HKD class in January for 8 to 12 year olds so I guess he will start Hapkido training then. 

I am in Port Orange FL about 10 miles south of Daytona Beach. If you are ever down this way please look me up.


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## bushido

Right on, thanks for the invite 
If I ever do the bike week thing or Disney World again, I'll get in touch


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## rd8256

Dwi Chugi said:


> Hello all. After reading a lot of great threads here on martial talk I have decided to start my first thread.
> 
> I have read several threads on what is true Hapkido vs hybrid Hapkido. I was going to call this "what is traditional Hapkido" but I am thinking that is too broad due to the fact each school has its own traditions. Anyways, I know it is said by Hapkidoin that Grandmaster Choi, learned aiki-jujitsu from Takeda Sensei in Japan for 30 years and was one of the only students of Takéda to learn all 3000 moves.  GM Choi moved back to Korea in 1945 or 46 after being gone for 30 some odd years and starts teaching Yawara or Aiki-jujitsu. He later started calling his art Yu-Sul and it took several other names as well until the name was given to the art we so dearly love.
> 
> Now, under the umbrella of Hapkido we have different federations and associations. Within the federations and associations we have different kwans or schools. There was only one Choi Dojunim. He had a lot of students that became masters who had lots of students that have become masters and so on.  A lot has been added to the art.
> 
> My linage goes Choi to Jung Hwan Park to Ron Berry to Me. Now, I have learned directly under Park, the majority of my Hapkido has come from Master Berry. I know there are people on this thread that are closer to Choi in linage then me and that is fine. I am proud of where I come from.
> 
> Both my master and grandmaster have served in the special ops in conflicts around the world. I worked as a bouncer and as a body guard for different groups performing here in Daytona.  My grandmaster and master's preform their Hapkido very simular. My Hapkido is a little different. I'm a lot taller with longer limbs than my masters and so I have to adapt my technique but my principles are the same as theirs. I have also taken into affect that even though the human body has not changed, how they use the body as a weapon has. Judo as we know it today, is the the same Judo in the 1950's or 60's. Taekwondo today has changed. Karate is not the same. Fighting is not the same.
> 
> Master Park has admitted to adapting his Hapkido. Master Berry; I know has adapted his art, though his HKD looks more like GM Parks than mine.  I have added techniques to my Hapkido and taken out the techniques that do not work as well now a days. I work on ground techniques because I am more likely to be attached by a wrestler or a BJJ fighter today than I would have been in yesteryear.
> 
> I call what I do, "MuSool Hapkido" because I feel like I use the principles of Hapkido but I add other martial techniques "MuSool" into what I teach. How many other schools add/take way techniques? Has Hapkido changed over time? Is what some of us teaching really hapkido? I know it may not be Choi's Hapkido but is that ok?  If its not ok, should we come up with a different name or the Kwan we teach enough?
> 
> By the way, MuSool Hapkido is not a Kwan and is more of what I teach at my dojang because I know it works for me.
> 
> I would like to keep this friendly. I'm just raising some questions that have been implied on this Forum.



Hi, is there such a thing as real hapkido ? Hapkido is a fairly new art comprised of different arts blended together, it's a sort of mix martial art, choi dojunim had help in formulating the art from its conception. There's many schools because no one wanted to accept chinil changs promotion as dojunim. So unless you've studied under Chang then your hapkido is not from the founder choi


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## iron_ox

rd8256 said:


> Hi, is there such a thing as real hapkido ? Hapkido is a fairly new art comprising of different arts blended together, it's a sort of mix martial art, choi dojunim had help in formulating the art from its conception. There's many schools because no one wanted to accept chinil changs promotion as dojunim. So unless you've studied under Chang then your hapkido is not from the founder choi



Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about as this entire post is misleading and factually incorrect.


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## Instructor

I don't know much about lineages and all that stuff, that's for historians.  

I know an outside wrist lock applied properly creates a whole lot of torque and is extremely effective.  I love Hapkido and I find it best to steer clear of Hapkido Politics.

Real Hapkido is about the style and doing it to the best of your ability.  Constantly trying to improve.  Honor your teacher and try to make your Hapkido a credit to the name.


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## Dwi Chugi

rd8256 said:


> Hi, is there such a thing as real hapkido ? Hapkido is a fairly new art comprised of different arts blended together, it's a sort of mix martial art, choi dojunim had help in formulating the art from its conception. There's many schools because no one wanted to accept chinil changs promotion as dojunim. So unless you've studied under Chang then your hapkido is not from the founder choi



So is rd8256 telling us to;  hang up our "hapkido" black belts, close down our "hapkido" schools, call our master's and grandmaster's (some of whiched trained with Dojunim Choi himself) and tell them to do the same because according to him (rd8256) unless we are currently under Chang Dojunim; we are not doing real Hapkido?  

From what I understand (from this forum), Grandmaster Chang is not even teaching right now.  No one has heard from him in years, am I mistaking?

The term Hapkido is used so much that it has taken on a non-trademark statis like karate, judo, jiujitsu, jujitsu and kung-fu has.  Furthermore, the history behind it is becoming more and more contraversial amoung other respected arts due to forums like this. No one can even agree if Choi studied Aiki-jujitsu or was a spectator in Takeda's classes; if he was an adopted son of Takeda or a house boy. Who coined the name "Hapkido" or who put this in or who put that in.  This is why other martial arts systems look down on Hapkido and think what we teach is $#!+.

I know this for one thing, I know "TRUE" HAPKIDO Works.  I know if you learned it the correct way, it will not fail you when your life depends on it.  I know Chang, Dojunim is not getting any younger and if he does not unite this art soon, it will be truely lost as a united art.  

I know my grandmaster is a direct decendent from Choi's Hapkido.  I know my master is a direct decendent from my grandmaster's Hapkido.  I know I am a direct decendent from both of my Master's Hapkido.  

I know there is a lot of great hapkido out there!  I know there are some trolls on this forum that are here to get a rise out of us so I take these comments with a grain of salt.  But incase rd8256 is actually being serious, please try to get your facts straight before you post.  If you do; even if we do not agree with you, we will respect you.


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## bushido

I would think that RD is just trying to assimilate some knowledge, and organize it in a manner that makes some sense to him...nothing wrong with that, or with it being "corrected" either, in as much as any of us can correct certain information in regards to HKD

Will Chang unite HKD...no, I can't see that happening.  It would take a lot of time and effort to make that happen, and a person with more time and "pull" in the HKD community.  The problem, as I see it, with unification, is that there is no incentive for everone to congregate around any one organization. Really, what do you get offered?
You pay your yearly dues, then you are hounded to contribute to this and that fund...pay extra for this or that...granted, it is the same in most any other organization or union, but what is your return on investment?
You get to use their logo and associate yourself with their name...as long as you are in good standing of course.  You can attend their seminars for a fee...go to HQ for gradings, for a fee, and of course travel expenses for you and your students...But what else do you get?

No...there has to be more.  Like group Club insurance, access to group attorneys, business advisors to help small or new club owners to expand and prosper, information data banks that could be used to further public knowledge of HKD, community help and awareness programs, regular owner and instructor seminars, an internal structure designed around helping its members prosper, etc.  And, to boot, you would need to have a very recognizable and acknowledged head at the table that others would yield to, and that in itself would be nearly impossible...
Will this happen...no.  And the reason is valid too...no one wants to put up the type of front money necessary to get a corporation of that magnitude off the ground, just to see if others would follow.

that has always been my take on our unification any ways...


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## zDom

Dwi Chugi said:


> I know Chang, Dojunim is not getting any younger and if he does not unite this art soon, it will be truely lost as a united art.




Based on everything I have ever heard or read, it is my understanding that hapkido has never, EVER been "a united art."

Ever.


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## Dwi Chugi

zDom said:


> Based on everything I have ever heard or read, it is my understanding that hapkido has never, EVER been "a united art."
> 
> Ever.



I have to agree with you and Bushido on that. The term Hapkido is a lot like the term Jujitsu (Jiujitsu), Karate, or Kung Fu. It is so generically used that I don't think even if Grandmaster Chang came out to try to unite the art, most high ranking masters are doing their own Kwans and most if not all those masters would not conform to one Kwan. 

I think most Kwans are very comfortable on there way they have been teaching over the last two and a half decades.  I would go do seminars with Master Chang if he came out, but I don't see me switching to a united Kwan.


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## bushido

lol, yeah, after WW2, EVERY THING was Karate, did'nt matter what it was, lol, very few new any different.  Even growing up, it wasn't much different for me, and any kind of knowledge was hard to come by.  Soldiers returning from vietnam had a more diverse out look on the arts, and differences began to be understood.
I would have to say though, that before the internet, the martial arts magazines, though largely controlled by sponsors, were the widest source of information in the early '70's for me...I remember first finding out about Stephen Hayes through Black Belt I think it was, and booking a summer camp with him in '87 or 88...it was an opportunity I never would have had otherwise...
And then the internet came along, lol, and with it the politics as every one struggled for their market share as it became more widely available.
Now a days...information is taken for granted, and misinformation flourishes, as it gets manipulated for personal gain 
My granpappy used to say "believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see".  Today, even what you see is greatly suspect, and believing even 50% would be difficult 

Ha!  that veered way off subject, lol

Any ways, after all that, I'd have to say that I agree with Shelby too...I can't see me or mine aligning with a different governing body either, and suspect that to be true for most.


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## Kong Soo Do

zDom said:


> Based on everything I have ever heard or read, it is my understanding that hapkido has never, EVER been "a united art."
> 
> Ever.



Reading through the various histories, it all boils down to whom you wish to believe.  But the underlying theme is basically what you've stated above.  Early in the history it seems various organizations sprang up and then closed down.  I would suspect in an effort to garner more rank for some individuals.  Those that claim high ranks now certainly wouldn't wish to march to any one else's banner.  As mentoned, they are quite comfortable as it is so I just can't see HKD ever having a unified, central banner that all or even most would support.  Too many people would want to be the chief rather than a supporting indian.

And maybe that is a tell-tale indication as to their ture goals and intentions.  A 'true' martial artist (of any martial art) is suppose to be humble and loyal to the art.  They 'should' be more than willing to do whatever is necessary to unify and promote the art.  Even if it meant supporting someone else, better qualified, to be the chief and willingly take a de-motion in rank (if necessary) to solidify the art.


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## oftheherd1

zDom said:


> Based on everything I have ever heard or read, it is my understanding that hapkido has never, EVER been "a united art."
> 
> Ever.



Maybe a good explanation of what a united art is would help. I know my GM used to talk about how the other GM would get together to discuss what standards would be. The president of the association also had power to allow GM to test and promote BB. Once the headquarters building was being rebuilt and it was taking longer than normal. After several months of waiting, all the GM were complaining and were then authorized to conduct their own tests with their own masters. That was what occured for my 1st Dan BB. It was also during such a meeting that the decision was made to move knife defense from red belt to after 1st Dan. There was also discussion on having up to 10th Dan, and what the standards would be. I know my GM had decided not to do so due to the papers he would have to do, and he figured he already knew all there was out there. Of course he was in his 70s by then and there probably wasn't much he didn't know. I think they eventially decided 8th Dan was as high as they needed to go after all, but I am not positive.  That was from the Korean Hapkido Federation/Association in Seoul Korea. I slash Federation/Association because as I have explained before, my certificates and card have different words. It never occurred to me to question that. I accepted what I got from my GM.


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## iron_ox

Instructor said:


> I don't know much about lineages and all that stuff, that's for historians.



Ok Jon, here I am taking you to task...of course you have to care about lineage - why call what you do Hapkido?  It comes from somewhere, taught by someone, to someone else, then to you...it matters.  Otherwise, what we are doing is just fighting...




Instructor said:


> I know an outside wrist lock applied properly creates a whole lot of torque and is extremely effective.  I love Hapkido and I find it best to steer clear of Hapkido Politics.



Politics and lineage are different - lineage matters, politics is just fun...



Instructor said:


> Real Hapkido is about the style and doing it to the best of your ability.  Constantly trying to improve.  Honor your teacher and try to make your Hapkido a credit to the name.



Yes, by knowing the history, lineage and Founder of the art.

Good post!


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## iron_ox

Dwi Chugi said:


> I have to agree with you and Bushido on that. The term Hapkido is a lot like the term Jujitsu (Jiujitsu), Karate, or Kung Fu. It is so generically used that I don't think even if Grandmaster Chang came out to try to unite the art, most high ranking masters are doing their own Kwans and most if not all those masters would not conform to one Kwan.
> 
> I think most Kwans are very comfortable on there way they have been teaching over the last two and a half decades.  I would go do seminars with Master Chang if he came out, but I don't see me switching to a united Kwan.



Whether Chang Dojunim tries to unite Hapkido or not remains to be seen.

I disagree that Hapkido is a generic name, I am working to not make it that.  It is the name of the art of Choi Dojunim.  It would be nice if we could get to that simple start -that Hapkido came from a single source - just Choi Dojunim and no one else....


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> Reading through the various histories, it all boils down to whom you wish to believe.  But the underlying theme is basically what you've stated above.  Early in the history it seems various organizations sprang up and then closed down.  I would suspect in an effort to garner more rank for some individuals.  Those that claim high ranks now certainly wouldn't wish to march to any one else's banner.  As mentoned, they are quite comfortable as it is so I just can't see HKD ever having a unified, central banner that all or even most would support.  Too many people would want to be the chief rather than a supporting indian.
> 
> And maybe that is a tell-tale indication as to their ture goals and intentions.  A 'true' martial artist (of any martial art) is suppose to be humble and loyal to the art.  They 'should' be more than willing to do whatever is necessary to unify and promote the art.  Even if it meant supporting someone else, better qualified, to be the chief and willingly take a de-motion in rank (if necessary) to solidify the art.



You have said a mouthful here - but I believe that the idea that "true" martial artists are supposed to be humble seems a western idea to me - Hapkido is a fighting art, if you didn't enter the dojang with some good home training, humility came from a good kicking!  If most had this humility, the vast breakdown of Hapkido would not have happened.


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## Dwi Chugi

iron_ox said:


> Whether Chang Dojunim tries to unite Hapkido or not remains to be seen.
> 
> I disagree that Hapkido is a generic name, I am working to not make it that.  It is the name of the art of Choi Dojunim.  It would be nice if we could get to that simple start -that Hapkido came from a single source - just Choi Dojunim and no one else....



I really wish you could make it where the term "Hapkido" was not a generic name.  I was in contact with the US Patent and Trademark Office last year getting "MuSool Hapkido" registered as a trade mark.  My attorney told me that the term "Hapkido" was like "coffee".  I could trademark "MuSool Hapkido" used together but not just the term "Hapkido".  The example they used was "Starbucks Coffee".  Starbucks could trademark their name with coffee at the end, just not the term "coffee" itself.

Hwarangdo founders trademarked that martial art so only "approved" black belts through their federation can use the term "Hwarangdo" as their art name.  Unless they allow their trademark to expire, that term will always be reserved for them.

This pass weekend, one of my competitor's that teaches Taekwondo and Gracie Jiujitsu was in our local town parade.  His business card now has that he teaches "Hapkido".  I know for a fact that he knows a few wrist locks from his Taekwondo, a few throws from Jiujitsu and now is teaching those few wrist locks/throws as Hapkido.  

Does it run me crazy? YES! Do I want to call him out on it? YES! Can I? NO! Not without setting myself up for a lawsuit. When my students asked me about his "Hapkido" class (it was news for all of us), I simply encouraged them to ask his linage back to Grandmaster Choi if they ever see him in public.

One of the other schools in town, that I get along with, claims that they teach Hapkido techniques in their Jiujitsu classes but they give rank in Jiujitsu not Hapkido.  I do not agree with that either but at least he is telling everyone that this in a hapkido technique but we are not a hapkido school.  BTW, his first master was a hapkido master that could trace his linage back to Grandmaster Choi, this guy just did not get his black belt in Hapkido so I think that is why he does it this way.

When someone is seeking out Hapkido at my Dojang, I encourage them to ask as many questions as possible to whom ever they train with and their linage back to the Grandmaster.  I personally fell into the linage back to Grandmaster Choi by accident.  I had no idea how important it was when I was a kid.  I am glad it worked out.  When I sought out Jiujitsu, I made sure the linage went back to the Gracie family.  Now I know better.  

All I can do is educate people and try to make them understand that it is important to trace their roots back to the founder.  That is all any of us can do, legally.


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## iron_ox

Dwi Chugi said:


> I really wish you could make it where the term "Hapkido" was not a generic name.  I was in contact with the US Patent and Trademark Office last year getting "MuSool Hapkido" registered as a trade mark.  My attorney told me that the term "Hapkido" was like "coffee".  I could trademark "MuSool Hapkido" used together but not just the term "Hapkido".  The example they used was "Starbucks Coffee".  Starbucks could trademark their name with coffee at the end, just not the term "coffee" itself.
> 
> Hwarangdo founders trademarked that martial art so only "approved" black belts through their federation can use the term "Hwarangdo" as their art name.  Unless they allow their trademark to expire, that term will always be reserved for them.
> 
> This pass weekend, one of my competitor's that teaches Taekwondo and Gracie Jiujitsu was in our local town parade.  His business card now has that he teaches "Hapkido".  I know for a fact that he knows a few wrist locks from his Taekwondo, a few throws from Jiujitsu and now is teaching those few wrist locks/throws as Hapkido.
> 
> Does it run me crazy? YES! Do I want to call him out on it? YES! Can I? NO! Not without setting myself up for a lawsuit. When my students asked me about his "Hapkido" class (it was news for all of us), I simply encouraged them to ask his linage back to Grandmaster Choi if they ever see him in public.
> 
> One of the other schools in town, that I get along with, claims that they teach Hapkido techniques in their Jiujitsu classes but they give rank in Jiujitsu not Hapkido.  I do not agree with that either but at least he is telling everyone that this in a hapkido technique but we are not a hapkido school.  BTW, his first master was a hapkido master that could trace his linage back to Grandmaster Choi, this guy just did not get his black belt in Hapkido so I think that is why he does it this way.
> 
> When someone is seeking out Hapkido at my Dojang, I encourage them to ask as many questions as possible to whom ever they train with and their linage back to the Grandmaster.  I personally fell into the linage back to Grandmaster Choi by accident.  I had no idea how important it was when I was a kid.  I am glad it worked out.  When I sought out Jiujitsu, I made sure the linage went back to the Gracie family.  Now I know better.
> 
> All I can do is educate people and try to make them understand that it is important to trace their roots back to the founder.  That is all any of us can do, legally.



The bottom line is that the only reason Hapkido is accepted as a "generic" term is because too many people let it slide that way.

The start is to accept that the Founder of Hapkido is Choi Dojunim.  That's the start.  Then it is NOT just tracing lineage back to the Choi Dojunim, but at what level does that trace go back?  

For example, and only as a example; (and I am listing names only so as to avoid "titles" mistaken as names)
 Seo In Sun, of the Hanminjok Hapkido Association, and World Kido Federation traces his Hapkido lineage back to Choi Dojunim, as a 1st dan.  
Chung Kee Tae, of the Canadian Hapkido Association traces his lineage back to Choi Dojunim as a 7th dan.
Rim, Jung Bae, Of Rim's Hapkido traces his lineage back to Choi Dojunim as a 7th Dan.
Ji Han Jae, of Sin Moo, traces his lineage back to Choi Dojunim as a 3rd Dan.

So it is really pretty easy to get a hierarchy going, this can also be done with the dates of rank as well, which is also quite interesting, but it is relevant to get the highest rank that can be directly attained from Choi Dojunim.

And I do not see any legal issue with calling out someone that claims to teach Hapkido, but is not.  THey are making the claim, they should be able to back it up.

Nice post Shelby.


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## Kong Soo Do

Well now, that kinda leaves out those folks that got their HKD black belts at a TKD school after a weekend seminar.  That isn't very politically correct or tolerant.  I'm assuming they earned the TKD rank and didn't just buy it also.  And they did take a full 16 hours of HKD, minus lunch and water breaks.  And they did take a complete and comprehensive test based on what was learned over the weekend.  And most importantly the check cleared on both the seminar AND the belt test.  And they might not have even had to start at 1st Dan as it was all based on their TKD black belt rank.  Heck, they could be seniors to a lot of Hapkidoin here on the board.  And we had a bunch of TKD people defend this as possibly legitimate and well, we shouldn't judge the Korean GM's doing it as it really isn't our concern anyway.

So...:uhyeah:


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