# The scary practicality of BJJ



## Kaygee

Hello again everyone. As many of you know, I started my journey in BJJ about 3 weeks ago now. I have attended 11 classes so far, some gi, some not, and have learned a bit. The other students have been nothing but helpful. They always seem to give me some sort of pointer every class.

While it has been extremely difficult to do anything to my advantage against the higher ranking students (which is normal and I am not complaining about it), it has been fun, but brings up a question.

I know a lot of the students only use this for sport and competitive reasons, in fact, most of them do not even attend the MMA class that is offered at my gym, they only come in for the BJJ.

So let us put aside the competition and sport part of BJJ for a second, shall we?

As stated, I am horrible when rolling with the higher ranking students, but what would be the reprecussions of someone rushing and tackling me to the ground in a real life situation? If I do not bump my head, of course, my first move is going to be to put him in my guard. Then, probably something like a triangle (because I do not know many other moves right now). 

Let's say I pull that off......

What do you do when you get said attacker in the triangle. It is all fun and games in the gym when your opponent taps and then you let go, but when you have someone that wants to inflict bodily harm on you, do you squeeze it until they pass out? Do you hold it until you feel they are no longer a threat? Do you hold it at "half strength" and tell them that if they don't chill the hell out they are going to *BE* chilled out?

I am interested in everyone's opinion. Although I love the sports part of this art, I am taking it also for practical reasons, so I would like to know what others think about this, or, if anyone has ever been placed in a similiar position before and what their reaction was.

Thank you!


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## arnisador

I did BJJ for a number of years. I was never very good at it but it helped me considerably nonetheless.

Sport and self-defense are different. My instructor was primarily a JKD guy who added BJJ to improve his ground game. In sport, being on your back and getting your opponent in the guard is great. In self-defense (or MMA) it often just means getting hammered in the face by punch after punch after punch. We were advised that in a street-fight we should strongly prefer to stay standing, failing that to be on top on the ground, even if in the other guy's guard, and if on the bottom to pull the person chest-to-chest with us, controlling arms with arms, and trying to use our head if possible to manage headbutts and bites, then flip him over as soon as possible (and begin punching him in the face or stand up and escape).

Try it with MMA-style finger gloves and half-strength punches with someone--it really disrupts your sport game. The sport training is important because it's how you get your techniques to work--but a different strategy is called for when punching/kicking/biting/scratching/etc. is "legal".


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## Tony Dismukes

In a serious self-defense situation there are no "submissions".  You're not trying to get the guy to give up, you're trying to make him unable to continue attacking you.  That means if you apply a choke, you hold it until the attacker passes out.  If you apply a joint lock, break the joint and move on.

What if the situation is less serious, such that inflicting serious damage is not a good option?  (Maybe your drunk roomate thinks that you were putting the moves on his girlfriend and you just need to calm him down without getting beat up in the process.)  In that case, forget about submissions and rely on positional control.  Take him down, get top mount, and crush the wind out of him for a few minutes until he decides he can discuss matters rationally.

Arnisador is correct in that you need to know how to deal with strikes.  If you only train for sport grappling, you will be vulnerable to getting punched.  I think newcomers to BJJ should definitely learn the combative aspects first before getting caught up in tournament techniques.

The question of whether to go to the ground or not is very situational.  There are scenarios where going to the ground would be the best option.  There are scenarios where going to the ground would be the worst option.  You need to have the tactical sense to understand which is which and the grappling skill to keep the fight where you want it.


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## Kaygee

Well, I am taking the boxing and Muay Thai for the striking, so hopefully it doesn't make it's way to the ground, but there's always that chance. We actually run drills in my school during our BJJ/MMA integrated classes (yes, we have them) and one dude on top wears boxing gloves and mounts the guy on the bottom and the guy on the bottom wears a mouth and head piece and tries to get out of being mounted while being pounded on.

That's, more or less, a more "real life" situation though, and I understand that, in reality, the situation wouldn't be me getting thrown to the ground, getting my opponent in guard, and then being able to get him into a triangle without any issues. I am sure it would be very difficult, but I was just wondering what to do if I actually *did *pull it off.

And Tony, wouldn't you be worried about severely hurting or maybe even killing the guy? Sometimes people will fight until the bitter end and if you keep something like that locked long enough, you could do some major, major damage. I'd hate to be in front of a court and have to explain my actions, ya know.

Thanks for the responses.


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## Touch Of Death

Just as an aside, when being submitted on the street, tap. Some trained fighters might let you go. Then proceed to beat him.


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## Tony Dismukes

Kaygee said:


> And Tony, wouldn't you be worried about severely hurting or maybe even killing the guy? Sometimes people will fight until the bitter end and if you keep something like that locked long enough, you could do some major, major damage. I'd hate to be in front of a court and have to explain my actions, ya know.



Firstly, this is one reason I greatly prefer "blood" chokes that attack the veins & arteries over "air" chokes that attack the windpipe.  Once your opponent passes out you release them, and a few seconds later they wake up none the worse for wear.  (Rener and Ryron Gracie posted a video on YouTube a while back explaining how to recognize that your opponent has passed out and safety precautions to ensure that you don't hold the choke too long.)  Chokes against the windpipe carry much more danger of inflicting permanent damage and so I wouldn't use one of those in a street fight unless I felt my life was in danger and it was my only option.

As far as joint locks go, if I'm using them in a real fight then I *am *intending to injure my opponent.  However I am not engaging in challenge matches or "monkey dance" posturing to prove my dominance.  Given any opportunity to avoid violence I will walk away or even run if I can.  If I ever get to the point where I'm applying an arm lock in the street it will be because someone is seriously trying to hurt me and I couldn't get away from them or convince them to settle things peacefully.  In that situation, giving my attacker the opportunity to keep attacking me would be a mistake.


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## arnisador

Police have had a lot of problems with chokes resulting in deaths--usually on the inebriated or high--so it is a serious matter by any standards. Only you can decide what's called for.


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## Tony Dismukes

arnisador said:


> Police have had a lot of problems with chokes resulting in deaths--usually on the inebriated or high--so it is a serious matter by any standards. Only you can decide what's called for.



I suspect most of those deaths can be attributed to windpipe chokes or to the officer holding on to a choke way too long.  Most police officers do not have the level of training in applying chokes that an experienced BJJ practitioner should have.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

ok, 2 things
1: IMO as a general rule of thumb, don't go to the ground. If they have a buddy, then hell be able to attack you while you're all tangled up with guy 1. Even if there's only one attacker, there are too many variables, and its too dangerous..he could get 'lucky' and hurt you, or you could hurt him worse than you intended because he didn't move how you expected. Of course, that's possible in stand-up to, but less likely that it will be as serious. There are situations where going to the ground is ok, but you need a lot of experience to know when that situation arises, so for now it's better just to be safe and avoid the ground/grappling in general.
2. You practiced Tang Soo Do, right? Since you won first place in fighting in a recent tournament, I'm going to assume you're capable. So, if you were attacked by multiple people, with only TSD knowledge, what would you do? Hit them once and hope they run away? Or hit them with the intent to injure them in a way they can't go after you anymore? Obviously it depends on how serious they are for hurting you, but whatever your answer is, it can also be applied to BJJ.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kaygee said:


> We actually run drills in my school during our BJJ/MMA integrated classes (yes, we have them)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MMA "mixed martial arts"? Wouldn't you naturally integrate martial arts into the mixed (or integrated) martial arts? During the non-integrated classes, do you still call it MMA, or just Muay Thai?


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## Kaygee

kempodisciple said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MMA "mixed martial arts"? Wouldn't you naturally integrate martial arts into the mixed (or integrated) martial arts? During the non-integrated classes, do you still call it MMA, or just Muay Thai?



Well, yes.....but we have "MMA Classes" and then BJJ Classes". So they are kind of different. 

In our "MMA classes", we work on footwork, Western boxing, and Muay Thai boxing. We also do a lot of cage work (working against the cage wall, escapes, etc.)
Then we have "BJJ Classes" which are just strictly BJJ. We have gi and no gi nights.
And every thursday, we have a "MMA/BJJ integration class" where we implement the practicality of both into one class.

Not sure if that I answered your question, but there it is...


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## punisher73

arnisador said:


> Police have had a lot of problems with chokes resulting in deaths--usually on the inebriated or high--so it is a serious matter by any standards. Only you can decide what's called for.



Yep, one big problem with grappling is that any submission or choke is a felony in many states.  If I put someone in an armbar in Michigan, it is Assault with Intent to do Great Bodily Harm ("breaking" the arm).  If I put someone in a choke, it is now Assault with Intent to Murder.  Remember, that legally, "assault" is the THREAT of the violence and what the victim believes it to be.

So, on the flip side, if you attempt to choke someone even if YOUR intent is to just get them to stop and pass out.  They are now legally justified to kill you.

Just some things to be aware of, and to consult a local attorney on how your Prosecutor/District Attorney views these types of cases and what state laws are.


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## Buka

Kaygee said:


> Hello again everyone. As many of you know, I started my journey in BJJ about 3 weeks ago now. I have attended 11 classes so far, some gi, some not, and have learned a bit. The other students have been nothing but helpful. They always seem to give me some sort of pointer every class.
> 
> While it has been extremely difficult to do anything to my advantage against the higher ranking students (which is normal and I am not complaining about it), it has been fun, but brings up a question.
> 
> I know a lot of the students only use this for sport and competitive reasons, in fact, most of them do not even attend the MMA class that is offered at my gym, they only come in for the BJJ.
> 
> So let us put aside the competition and sport part of BJJ for a second, shall we?
> 
> As stated, I am horrible when rolling with the higher ranking students, but what would be the reprecussions of someone rushing and tackling me to the ground in a real life situation? If I do not bump my head, of course, my first move is going to be to put him in my guard. Then, probably something like a triangle (because I do not know many other moves right now).
> 
> Let's say I pull that off......
> 
> What do you do when you get said attacker in the triangle. It is all fun and games in the gym when your opponent taps and then you let go, but when you have someone that wants to inflict bodily harm on you, do you squeeze it until they pass out? Do you hold it until you feel they are no longer a threat? Do you hold it at "half strength" and tell them that if they don't chill the hell out they are going to *BE* chilled out?
> 
> I am interested in everyone's opinion. Although I love the sports part of this art, I am taking it also for practical reasons, so I would like to know what others think about this, or, if anyone has ever been placed in a similiar position before and what their reaction was.
> 
> Thank you!



Right now you're 11 pages into a long book. Enjoy the read and have a ball.


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## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> Well, yes.....but we have "MMA Classes" and then BJJ Classes". So they are kind of different.
> 
> In our "MMA classes", we work on footwork, Western boxing, and Muay Thai boxing. We also do a lot of cage work (working against the cage wall, escapes, etc.)
> Then we have "BJJ Classes" which are just strictly BJJ. We have gi and no gi nights.
> And every thursday, we have a "MMA/BJJ integration class" where we implement the practicality of both into one class.
> 
> Not sure if that I answered your question, but there it is...



Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class. MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together. 
I liked Buka's analogy of your being 11 pages into a very long book, he's right and you should enjoy it, if you are going to stick to MMA though do widen your skillls base into proper MMA by learning techniques outside just boxing, MT and BJJ.


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## Kaygee

Tez3 said:


> Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class. MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together.
> I liked Buka's analogy of your being 11 pages into a very long book, he's right and you should enjoy it, if you are going to stick to MMA though do widen your skillls base into proper MMA by learning techniques outside just boxing, MT and BJJ.



Yeah, I guess calling it a "striking class" would be more of a suitable description of the class. I do have nearly 3 years of Tang Soo Do under my belt and I do execute it when I am sparring, but outside of the boxing, muay thai and BJJ, there hasn't been much more taught to me. In reality though, my reality anyway, that's all I really need. I just want the four ranges covered so I can be effective at them all.


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## punisher73

Tez3 said:


> Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class. MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together.
> I liked Buka's analogy of your being 11 pages into a very long book, he's right and you should enjoy it, if you are going to stick to MMA though do widen your skillls base into proper MMA by learning techniques outside just boxing, MT and BJJ.



Not to split hairs, but there are many schools that define THEIR MMA as boxing/Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ and don't go outside of those arts.  I understand your position that there can be many other arts that can be added to the toolbox.  Maybe it's a difference in approach between the US and the UK.  Many US schools are heavily influenced by the UFC, in which boxing, wrestling, MT and BJJ are the main things showcased.


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## Tez3

punisher73 said:


> Not to split hairs, but there are many schools that define THEIR MMA as boxing/Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ and don't go outside of those arts. I understand your position that there can be many other arts that can be added to the toolbox. Maybe it's a difference in approach between the US and the UK. Many US schools are heavily influenced by the UFC, in which boxing, wrestling, MT and BJJ are the main things showcased.




Perhaps they should say they are 'UFC schools' rather than MMA gyms lol! I don't think it's the UK approach so much as the approach outside the USA, I know a lot of European fighters and their MMA is the same as ours, literally the mixture of arts rather than just 3 or 4. It's very limiting to just have boxing/MT and BJJ, I suppose that's why we have these discussions on here about TKD and karate in MMA when obviously in the States you don't see it much whereas outside it's fairly obvious.


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## arnisador

kempodisciple said:


> ok, 2 things
> 1: IMO as a general rule of thumb, don't go to the ground. If they have a buddy, then hell be able to attack you while you're all tangled up with guy 1. Even if there's only one attacker, there are too many variables, and its too dangerous



Also, you'd be surprised how often someone has a knife on them but didn't bring it out initially, reasoning that if they get caught the penalty will be less then. If pressed they'll pull it...and a knife on the ground is bad news.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class. MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together.
> I liked Buka's analogy of your being 11 pages into a very long book, he's right and you should enjoy it, if you are going to stick to MMA though do widen your skillls base into proper MMA by learning techniques outside just boxing, MT and BJJ.


What she said XDD


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

arnisador said:


> Also, you'd be surprised how often someone has a knife on them but didn't bring it out initially, reasoning that if they get caught the penalty will be less then. If pressed they'll pull it...and a knife on the ground is bad news.


agreed, but completely forgot about it. Wow, I'm actually agreeing with basically everyone on a thread! yay!


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## arnisador

Tez3 said:


> Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class.



Agreed. If you have no grappling/groundwork mixed in, I wouldn't consider it MMA. I should say that I view MMA as primarily a sport method--not primarily a self-defense method.



> MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together.



I don't see this the same way though. I see MMA as a spare, stripped-down system drawn from parts of much larger systems and ultimately containing relatively few techniques but combined in a way that works for _you_. It's not about having as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can but about having the right ammunition for you by drawing from as much as you need. In practice people do very well with boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, and wrestling. What you're describing I would characterize as more of a JKD approach--but even then I expect it to be ultimately reduced, though not as much as in MMA.


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## Aiki Lee

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said so far. If you find yourself in a SD situation the goal should be to get up and escape as soon as you can. If you are applying a choke you keep it on until you KNOW the threat is ended. Then you get out of there and call the coppers.


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## ETinCYQX

Kaygee said:


> Hello again everyone. As many of you know, I started my journey in BJJ about 3 weeks ago now. I have attended 11 classes so far, some gi, some not, and have learned a bit. The other students have been nothing but helpful. They always seem to give me some sort of pointer every class.
> 
> While it has been extremely difficult to do anything to my advantage against the higher ranking students (which is normal and I am not complaining about it), it has been fun, but brings up a question.
> 
> I know a lot of the students only use this for sport and competitive reasons, in fact, most of them do not even attend the MMA class that is offered at my gym, they only come in for the BJJ.
> 
> So let us put aside the competition and sport part of BJJ for a second, shall we?
> 
> As stated, I am horrible when rolling with the higher ranking students, but what would be the reprecussions of someone rushing and tackling me to the ground in a real life situation? If I do not bump my head, of course, my first move is going to be to put him in my guard. Then, probably something like a triangle (because I do not know many other moves right now).
> 
> Let's say I pull that off......
> 
> What do you do when you get said attacker in the triangle. It is all fun and games in the gym when your opponent taps and then you let go, but when you have someone that wants to inflict bodily harm on you, do you squeeze it until they pass out? Do you hold it until you feel they are no longer a threat? Do you hold it at "half strength" and tell them that if they don't chill the hell out they are going to *BE* chilled out?
> 
> I am interested in everyone's opinion. Although I love the sports part of this art, I am taking it also for practical reasons, so I would like to know what others think about this, or, if anyone has ever been placed in a similiar position before and what their reaction was.
> 
> Thank you!



The answer you want to hear, is it's better to sweep him from your guard and pound on him from mount. Ask your instructor about sweeps or get ups from guard if you want.

The answer you don't want to hear, but is really the right one, is relax and learn jiu jitsu for jiu jitsu. Once you have an understanding of grappling, you won't have to think about applying it in self defense if the situation arises.


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## Tez3

arnisador said:


> Agreed. If you have no grappling/groundwork mixed in, I wouldn't consider it MMA. I should say that I view MMA as primarily a sport method--not primarily a self-defense method.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this the same way though. I see MMA as a spare, stripped-down system* drawn from parts of much larger systems *and ultimately containing relatively few techniques but combined in a way that works for _you_. It's not about having as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can but about having the right ammunition for you by drawing from as much as you need. In practice people do very well with boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, and wrestling. What you're describing I would characterize as more of a JKD approach--but even then I expect it to be ultimately reduced, though not as much as in MMA.



Well I did say techniques would be drawn from different styles! The 'trick' to MMA is getting the techniques that work for you thus giving you more ammunition. It's not that the style is pared down so much as it's that a fighter learns as much as they can and picks the techniques that work best for them. The comment I was replying to was saying that MMA is just generally boxing, MT and BJJ, my point was that it's more than just those styles used which you agree with.


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## Buka

I know of some gyms that started an "MMA" program, but it was really an advertising strategy to take advantage of a current popularity. There would be stand-up and there was some ground work, mostly based on what the current instructor, or guest instructor, had for mixed Art experience. 

Other gyms had instructor(s) with MMA training and fight experience. Some had a cage and some didn't.

I think the best thing about both of them is teaching their students to think and fight outside the box they were used to.


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## arnisador

Buka said:


> I know of some gyms that started an "MMA" program, but it was really an advertising strategy to take advantage of a current popularity. There would be stand-up and there was some ground work, mostly based on what the current instructor, or guest instructor, had for mixed Art experience.



I lived through this in the 80s when some Karate schools switched to black uniforms and claimed they were teaching ninjutsu--same kata etc., but now with a mysterious air about it.


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## Tez3

We've had this with 'kick boxing' ( boxercise really) and 'Kung Fu' people jump on the band wagon as they see money in it. There's certain characteristics that define a true MMA _gym_ ( they aren't classes or schools for a start), the coaches are fight experienced in all aspects not just the actual fighting ie cornering, tactics, ring/cage craft etc. Those who trian there are usually fighting whether in amateur, semi or pro rules. There's a different atmosphere about an MMA gym from an 'MMA' school or class where the instructors are just teahcing techniques form other styles. 

One of my favourite gyms, the guys are great. http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/going-o...a-day-in-the-life-of-a-griphouse-dinky-ninja/

Another of my favourite gyms, I've cornered the head coach there before in one of his fights and working with him is an experience, he's a definite character! http://www.dogsofwarmma.co.uk/index.html

These are very different from MMA 'schools' who jump on the MMA bandwagon.


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## arnisador

Tez3 said:


> There's certain characteristics that define a true MMA _gym_ ( they aren't classes or schools for a start), the coaches



This is a crucial difference already--between a _teacher _who intends to teach you the specific martial art he knows, transmitting a body of knowledge to you, vs. a _coach_ who sees his or her job as bringing out the best fighter in you. There's a place for both; I was taught some iaido but coached in JKD.


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## Kaygee

....I guess my thread has been hijacked.... %-}


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## James Kovacich

arnisador said:


> Agreed. If you have no grappling/groundwork mixed in, I wouldn't consider it MMA. I should say that I view MMA as primarily a sport method--not primarily a self-defense method.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this the same way though. I see MMA as a spare, stripped-down system drawn from parts of much larger systems and ultimately containing relatively few techniques but combined in a way that works for _you_. It's not about having as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can but about having the right ammunition for you by drawing from as much as you need. In practice people do very well with boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, and wrestling. What you're describing I would characterize as more of a JKD approach--but even then I expect it to be ultimately reduced, though not as much as in MMA.



I think I see it as you do. MMA started out with the original styles being tested against each other and evolved into the sport of MMA. The end result reflects the instructors themselves with "most" MMA sharing core tools not because they're written in stone like other arts but because these "ways" are what works most effectively.

I understand Tez's view but I believe in the end it's all MMA, none are better. Only the individual fighters are better on an individual basis.

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## James Kovacich

Kaygee said:


> Hello again everyone. As many of you know, I started my journey in BJJ about 3 weeks ago now. I have attended 11 classes so far, some gi, some not, and have learned a bit. The other students have been nothing but helpful. They always seem to give me some sort of pointer every class.
> 
> While it has been extremely difficult to do anything to my advantage against the higher ranking students (which is normal and I am not complaining about it), it has been fun, but brings up a question.
> 
> I know a lot of the students only use this for sport and competitive reasons, in fact, most of them do not even attend the MMA class that is offered at my gym, they only come in for the BJJ.
> 
> So let us put aside the competition and sport part of BJJ for a second, shall we?
> 
> As stated, I am horrible when rolling with the higher ranking students, but what would be the reprecussions of someone rushing and tackling me to the ground in a real life situation? If I do not bump my head, of course, my first move is going to be to put him in my guard. Then, probably something like a triangle (because I do not know many other moves right now).
> 
> Let's say I pull that off......
> 
> What do you do when you get said attacker in the triangle. It is all fun and games in the gym when your opponent taps and then you let go, but when you have someone that wants to inflict bodily harm on you, do you squeeze it until they pass out? Do you hold it until you feel they are no longer a threat? Do you hold it at "half strength" and tell them that if they don't chill the hell out they are going to *BE* chilled out?
> 
> I am interested in everyone's opinion. Although I love the sports part of this art, I am taking it also for practical reasons, so I would like to know what others think about this, or, if anyone has ever been placed in a similiar position before and what their reaction was.
> 
> Thank you!



Save yourself from a beating. Skip the triangle and think reversal. If you have to be on the ground you want to be on top doing the beating. And your goal should be to get off your back immediately and get back to your feet and leave.

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## Steve

James Kovacich said:


> Save yourself from a beating. Skip the triangle and think reversal. If you have to be on the ground you want to be on top doing the beating. And your goal should be to get off your back immediately and get back to your feet and leave.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2



The only exception to this is if you have friends and he doesn't.  Pull guard and tie him up until your friend can take him out.  He's a lot more vulnerable to your friends in your guard than under your mount.  Course... If you have friends and he diesnt, This isn't exactly self defense anymore.  


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## Kaygee

Steve said:


> Course... If you have friends and he diesnt, This isn't exactly self defense anymore.



...then what is it? Survival?


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## James Kovacich

Kaygee said:


> ...then what is it? Survival?



It's a fight.

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## Aiki Lee

It's a beating, is what it is.


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## Kaygee

James Kovacich said:


> It's a fight.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2



I thought that I had made it clear from my original post that was where I was going with this....


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## Aiki Lee

You did. Are you confused by James's comment?


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## Kaygee

Himura Kenshin said:


> You did. Are you confused by James's comment?



I guess I am. My original post was to question what I WOULD do in a ground situation in a real fight.


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## Steve

Kaygee said:


> I guess I am. My original post was to question what I WOULD do in a ground situation in a real fight.



I guess my answer would be, "it depends."




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## arnisador

The original question was more focused and admits of a more detailed answer than "it depends." But I suspect this thread has run its course.


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## James Kovacich

Kaygee said:


> ...then what is it? Survival?



If you have friends and he doesn't as Steve presented. How could it be survival. As far as you "trying" to pull off a triangle in the street. I hope you never have to. To take it a step further. After a few weeks of BJJ, you haven't become proficient at anything yet except dreaming of the "possilibilties" which in time you will "know" aren't what your seeing today.

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## Steve

arnisador said:


> The original question was more focused and admits of a more detailed answer than "it depends." But I suspect this thread has run its course.



Sorry, but even in the OP it would depend.  I can think of scenarios in which each of the proposed responses would be okay.  

For example, is the guy attacking me a drunk, but stupid buddy?  Do I believe that me life is in danger?  Do I have friends?  Does he?  How good am I from guard?  Is he armed?  Am I?  


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## Aiki Lee

Kaygee said:


> I guess I am. My original post was to question what I WOULD do in a ground situation in a real fight.




What do you think you would do? I'd advise the same as James. You should reverse it and take the top position and then get to your feet from there.


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## Steve

Himura Kenshin said:


> What do you think you would do? I'd advise the same as James. You should reverse it and take the top position and then get to your feet from there.



Likely this. ^^^^  or open guard, create space and stand up.  At least at my school, we routinely practice what is called a technical stand up, where you do so without leaving your head open to get kicked.  


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## arnisador

Steve said:


> Sorry, but even in the OP it would depend.  I can think of scenarios in which each of the proposed responses would be okay.



You're kind of taking a stance against discussing martial arts on a martial arts forum at this point. Several people found a way to give a more useful answer than "it depends". Feel free to ask a question of the OP to help clarify, though.


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## arnisador

Steve said:


> Likely this. ^^^^  or open guard, create space and stand up.  At least at my school, we routinely practice what is called a technical stand up, where you do so without leaving your head open to get kicked.



We practiced a form of that too--often. In almost all cases I'd rather be on my feet!


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## Kaygee

So is it safe to say that BJJ is just like any other Martial Art in that it is more of an actual art or competitive sport than a self defense mechanism? It seems that they all are nowadays, with the exception of some striking parts of boxing and muay thai. Is Krav Maga really the only "martial art" that teaches you how to practically defend yourself?


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## jks9199

Kaygee said:


> So is it safe to say that BJJ is just like any other Martial Art in that it is more of an actual art or competitive sport than a self defense mechanism? It seems that they all are nowadays, with the exception of some striking parts of boxing and muay thai. Is Krav Maga really the only "martial art" that teaches you how to practically defend yourself?


No.  While some arts are heavily ring or sport oriented (Muay Thai, Olympic TKD, for example), that doesn't mean that they cannot teach effective fighting principles for real fighting.  But any overemphasis on the sporting aspects or rules will distance you from combative practicality.  The first rule of real violence?  If you know it's going to happen, don't be there.  If you must be there, be armed.  And bring friends.  Who are also armed.  And bringing their friends...

Most of the things we think of as "martial arts" are combative traditions; means to hand down principles of handling violence or combat with some reasonable degree of safety to the students.  Some migrated into or got merged with spiritual/personal development ideas along the way.  Others emphasized the sporting side, adding more rules or safety principles.

Since the initial question here is about BJJ...  You tie up with a guy for real, you've got two choices:  hug him until the cops come, or take him out somehow.  Hit him, choke him, break the leg that you're trapping...  Do something that will do enough damage to stop any further attack and let you get away.  Because, unless you're a cop or otherwise have a duty to act and restrain the bad guy (btw -- there are times that cops have every justification and right to run away, too.  They just get to come back with friends...), self defense is about that:  stopping the attack, and getting somewhere safe.


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## arnisador

I think there are a lot of good, well-rounded martial arts out there--and even more instructors teaching good, well-rounded self-defense systems based in martial arts.

The sport aspect of BJJ is the key to its effectiveness: You learn to make the techniques _actually work_, unlike "too deadly to practice" martial arts. It's one of the reasons the sport of boxing makes for the basis of such an effective self-defense system. Practicing BJJ-as-sport improves your self-defense game, but the difference is whether you're playing it by sport rules, or by self-defense motivated rules. Stick with BJJ, but test it and integrate it!


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## Steve

arnisador said:


> You're kind of taking a stance against discussing martial arts on a martial arts forum at this point. Several people found a way to give a more useful answer than "it depends". Feel free to ask a question of the OP to help clarify, though.



Why are you busting my balls?  There are two ways to approach the OP, IMO.  we can write what amounts to fan fiction, inventing a scenario specific enough to give a worthwhile answer, or we can answer honestly that it depends on an almost limitless number of "what if" questions.

I post most often from an iPad, so my posts tend to be brief.  But I did try to add more in other posts.  Sheesh. 


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## Aiki Lee

Kaygee said:


> So is it safe to say that BJJ is just like any other Martial Art in that it is more of an actual art or competitive sport than a self defense mechanism? It seems that they all are nowadays, with the exception of some striking parts of boxing and muay thai. Is Krav Maga really the only "martial art" that teaches you how to practically defend yourself?


 
No.
To add to what jks and arnisador said, the specific art you train in does not really matter as much as HOW you train in that art. Now, it is important to understand what each martial art you might consider taking was initially designed for. Some arts are designed more for sport, some for grittier more self defense or battle oriented situations, and others for more philosophical and esoteric reasons. That said, I think the unifying element that makes an art "martial" is all about the mindset. It can be fun to train but it must be serious and realistic in its aims.

You might look at karate or krav maga and see more easily applied self defense lessons because you can see techniques and skills you could arguably say looks like something that would be useful in fending off an attacker. In truth something like iado can have SD application as well. Not in the form of cutting a person with a sword but because it helps on to develope a serious mindset, awareness of self and surroundings, and other mental skills that assist one in successfully fending off an attacker.

The point I want you to take is that you should train in what you want to train in but understand its original purpose. In BJJ it's competition but it still can be useful for SD. All you have to do is consider what the changes are outside of the competitive environment and train to meet those conditions. BJJ certainly can be good for self defense but what you end up practicing wouldn't resemble what you would see in competitions.


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## PoolMan

To answer the original question, I would never put someone in a triangle in a SD situation. I have seen people do this and get picked up and body slammed too many times, and on concrete getting slammed is a fight finisher. Also you expose your genital area with a triangle. One arm is in and one is out, right? The arm that is free can easily punch, grab, etc. the family jewels. Not good. I also witnessed a fight once where guy 1 got guy 2 into a triangle. Guy 2 tried his best to get out of it and couldn't. So what did he do? He poked guy 1 in the @$$hole. No joke. He jabbed him with his thumb as hard as he could. Guy 1 was so surprised (and probably in pain) that he let guy 2 go immediately. Then guy 2 got in the mount and proceded to give guy 1 the beating of his life.


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## Mz1

Kaygee said:


> I know a lot of the students only use this for sport and competitive reasons, in fact, most of them do not even attend the MMA class that is offered at my gym, they only come in for the BJJ.
> 
> So let us put aside the competition and sport part of BJJ for a second, shall we?



There certainly is striking and SD aspects to BJJ, as seen when Royce Gracie threw strikes while standing and on the ground in the early UFC's. Nowadays, there's no training of strikes in BJJ class is due to there being a separate class for striking in MT/Boxing and MMA which combines both.

But the truth is, many people who do BJJ only, are just afraid to get hit in the face. And many who do MT only while never BJJ nor MMA is because they're afraid to get taken down and submitted.  The MMA class is the most feared by many in an MMA gym as it's a very bad feeling to get taken down and pummeled on. Even after competing in BJJ and MT for many years, the first time I put them both together in MMA hard sparring, it was a very scary & different feeling to getting GNP'ed. 

Also, many who are higher rank in BJJ, don't like become that complete noob again by starting out in MT, after being in the same dojo for many years. Worse is getting beat by beginner MT's. Same thing for advance MT fighters venturing onto the BJJ mat. Lots of pride involved.



> As stated, I am horrible when rolling with the higher ranking students, but what would be the reprecussions of someone rushing and tackling me to the ground in a real life situation? If I do not bump my head, of course, my first move is going to be to put  him in my guard. Then, probably something like a triangle (because I do  not know many other moves right now).



With about 11 classes, you should be able to defend a takedown vs. some untrained slob on the street your size or a little bigger. 

If you're taken down and must pull guard....and get that triangle.... you should squeeze that triangle hard and try to feel when he's out. Although you don't want to cause brain damage or worse, death....and having to deal with the Law and/or civil litigation later.

You can ease up on the choke and give him a chance to give up. But this is iffy, because once let go, he could resume fighting again. Or if his face is exposed, start punching it to teach him a lesson and cause fear.

If you're about to let him go, do it slowly while positioning yourself to do a scissor sweep on him immediately. This way, once he's out of the choke, he's not in your guard to GnP you.....as you swept him and now have the full mount...where you can talk more sense into him or punch him some more....and can standup and leave.

Another thing to be careful is to not fall for the "TAP". In the street, they may tap as a trick for you to let go and then commence fighting you again.


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## Mz1

PoolMan said:


> To answer the original question, I would never put someone in a triangle in a SD situation. I have seen people do this and get picked up and body slammed too many times, and on concrete getting slammed is a fight finisher. Also you expose your genital area with a triangle. One arm is in and one is out, right? The arm that is free can easily punch, grab, etc. the family jewels. Not good. I also witnessed a fight once where guy 1 got guy 2 into a triangle. Guy 2 tried his best to get out of it and couldn't. So what did he do? He poked guy 1 in the @$$hole. No joke. He jabbed him with his thumb as hard as he could. Guy 1 was so surprised (and probably in pain) that he let guy 2 go immediately. Then guy 2 got in the mount and proceded to give guy 1 the beating of his life.



See, this depends on how good the BJJ is compared to his attacker....strength, skills, etc.

A BJJ Blue and above should be able to execute a triangle and put some untrained street slob to sleep in 3-5 seconds. Most untrained people don't know WTF is going on during that first 3 seconds, and then the next 2 seconds....they're already getting dreamy, weak and on the way to Snoozeville. Only skilled grapplers and such would know that a triangle is being attempted on them....but they're better off doing something else (ie. turn in and knee to the face) rather than go for the pickup and slam. If someone picks me up, I would let go, slide down his body, grab his ankles, my knees pushing at his hips, sweep....now I'm in the full mount punching his face repeatedly.

Now if the BJJ sucks....but if that's all he's got is a sloppy triangle attempt, then that's all he's got.  What else should he do if he got taken down and must pull guard?


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## arnisador

I'm not crazy about a triangle choke in the streets. You might put him right out, or he might bite, or stand up, or stab you with a knife you can't see, etc. I'd be inclined to go another way if possible but wouldn't absolutely rule it out.


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## PoolMan

Mz1 said:


> See, this depends on how good the BJJ is compared to his attacker....strength, skills, etc.
> 
> A BJJ Blue and above should be able to execute a triangle and put some untrained street slob to sleep in 3-5 seconds. Most untrained people don't know WTF is going on during that first 3 seconds, and then the next 2 seconds....they're already getting dreamy, weak and on the way to Snoozeville. Only skilled grapplers and such would know that a triangle is being attempted on them....but they're better off doing something else (ie. turn in and knee to the face) rather than go for the pickup and slam. If someone picks me up, I would let go, slide down his body, grab his ankles, my knees pushing at his hips, sweep....now I'm in the full mount punching his face repeatedly.
> 
> Now if the BJJ sucks....but if that's all he's got is a sloppy triangle attempt, then that's all he's got.  What else should he do if he got taken down and must pull guard?



I don't think it matters that much how good the practioner is. As soon as someone tries to get me in a triangle I'm going for the balls. I don't care. I'm not going to wait for him to get his legs into position before I do this. Of course I live in San Jose, CA where it seems that everyone trains, or says they train. Really I just see Tapout shirts everywhere (rolling my eyes). So I assume everyone is trained.

As soon as I'm on my back my #1 priority is to get back on my feet. PERIOD. Whether that be by a sweep, reversal, whatever.


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## Steve

PoolMan said:


> I don't think it matters that much how good the practioner is. As soon as someone tries to get me in a triangle I'm going for the balls. I don't care. I'm not going to wait for him to get his legs into position before I do this. Of course I live in San Jose, CA where it seems that everyone trains, or says they train. Really I just see Tapout shirts everywhere (rolling my eyes). So I assume everyone is trained.
> 
> As soon as I'm on my back my #1 priority is to get back on my feet. PERIOD. Whether that be by a sweep, reversal, whatever.



I don't disagree that getting up is a good idea.  But the whole balls thing is off.  If a triangle is being done correctly ones balls are pretty safe.   
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## James Kovacich

One only needs to watch the UFC to understand the basics of ground n pound. Most of the younger generation are UFC fans these days. It is the fastest growing sport and even the best grapplers do get pounded.

A new guy to BJJ is crazy to do anything from his back except trying to escape. 

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## PoolMan

Steve said:


> I don't disagree that getting up is a good idea.  But the whole balls thing is off.  If a triangle is being done correctly ones balls are pretty safe.
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2



That's why I said I'm not waiting for him to get his legs into position...


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## Steve

PoolMan said:


> That's why I said I'm not waiting for him to get his legs into position...


And then it becomes a matter of skill, and we're back into the fan fiction thing I mentioned above.  Could you stop it if you wanted to?  Could you prevent a competent boxer from landing a punch?  Maybe. Depends on how you defend, whether you can slip the punch effectively and how you guard your noggin.  Chances are, if you have never boxed, no matter how fast you are or whether you intellectually understand that you should move your head, you're not going to keep a boxer from landing a punch.  Most people understand and accept this to be true.  Your ability to defend isn't ENTIRELY within your control.  Your skill (or lack of skill) vs bad guy's skill.

But for some reason, when it comes to grappling, people with little to no training believe they have a chance if they just try hard enough against a competent grappler.   

Conversely, you know as soon as you touch someone whether they've got some training or not.  We have new guys come in all the time alleging that they have no prior training. 

I want to be clear, the entire conversation about whether or not BJJ is good for self defense is not what I'm commenting on.  I'm strictly commenting on the idea that a person (not necessarily you) who has little to no training in ground fighting has a choice if a competent grappler decides to triangle him or sweep him.


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## punisher73

Steve said:


> And then it becomes a matter of skill, and we're back into the fan fiction thing I mentioned above.  Could you stop it if you wanted to?  Could you prevent a competent boxer from landing a punch?  Maybe. Depends on how you defend, whether you can slip the punch effectively and how you guard your noggin.  Chances are, if you have never boxed, no matter how fast you are or whether you intellectually understand that you should move your head, you're not going to keep a boxer from landing a punch.  Most people understand and accept this to be true.  Your ability to defend isn't ENTIRELY within your control.  Your skill (or lack of skill) vs bad guy's skill.
> 
> But for some reason, when it comes to grappling, people with little to no training believe they have a chance if they just try hard enough against a competent grappler.
> 
> Conversely, you know as soon as you touch someone whether they've got some training or not.  We have new guys come in all the time alleging that they have no prior training.
> 
> I want to be clear, the entire conversation about whether or not BJJ is good for self defense is not what I'm commenting on.  I'm strictly commenting on the idea that a person (not necessarily you) who has little to no training in ground fighting has a choice if a competent grappler decides to triangle him or sweep him.



I agree with you.  An unexpected move set up properly has a high chance of being sucessful.  Why? Because the other person doesn't have the recognition skills to know what is coming.  It's why BJJ was so dominate in the early days of "NHB" before it evolved into what you call "MMA".  People didn't know what could be done and had never practiced against it.  This not only applies to ground grappling, but striking as well.

Also, a trained grappler will have the advantage of using the dirty tactics in a ground situation because they have positional control and how to transition.  Every grappler who has trained somewhere will have been told by the instructor "position before submission".  Same thing with dirty tactics, if you are rolled and controlled, you aren't going to have much chance to get to the eyes/groin etc.

Reminds me of a bad book I saw at the bookstore one time.  It was on using pressure points to counter grappling.  One of the first techniques they taught was to push your fingers in the other person's throat while they have you mounted so you can create space.  ANYONE, who has had a couple of lessons in BJJ will see that this technique will get you armbarred VERY quickly for giving someone an extended arm while they are on their back and mounted.  It LOOKS like good advice, but without understanding the basic ground game will get you hurt very quickly.


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## Mz1

PoolMan said:


> I don't think it matters that much how good the practioner is. As soon as someone tries to get me in a triangle I'm going for the balls. I don't care. I'm not going to wait for him to get his legs into position before I do this. Of course I live in San Jose, CA where it seems that everyone trains, or says they train. Really I just see Tapout shirts everywhere (rolling my eyes). So I assume everyone is trained.
> 
> As soon as I'm on my back my #1 priority is to get back on my feet. PERIOD. Whether that be by a sweep, reversal, whatever.




Looks like you haven't fought MMA against someone who's decent or good, say a BJJ Blue or Purple and above. I was being  very generous with that 3 seconds to slip on a  triangle. 

An experienced fighter vs. someone equally trained....as soon as they're being taken down to the ground and onto their back, will usually start transitioning into a triangle choke attempt WHILE, on the way down (before their back hits the ground), if Triangles are one of their strong points. The triangle may already be locked within 1 second or less, and the passing out stage beings around the 2 second mark. This was how I got caught by someone better than me at grappling. It was just  ONE quick move where he threw both of his legs and yanked my arm... once I took him down and his back hit the ground.... while we were dry and not all sweaty yet. It was already too late to try to pick him up. His balls aren't even accessible to me from this position. 

See, you obviously aren't grappling in a good BJJ/MMA joint if you think you can grab at balls that easily. You can even TRY to bite too if you want (although you'd be biting your own arm). Just know, that now you've escalated the situation to where payback in pain or maiming is inevitable. Hell, where your head is currently at or already trapped....as soon as I feel my balls being grabbed, I'm going to remove 1 or 2 of your eyeballs.


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## Mz1

Steve said:


> I don't disagree that getting up is a good idea.  But the whole balls thing is off.  If a triangle is being done correctly ones balls are pretty safe.
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2



Yea, people who don't really train BJJ and especially not MMA would think they can just grab or punch at someone's balls while they're passing out because they really don't understand what's going on when watching the UFC and such. 

There's a pretty good reason why extremely trained fighters who may have millions of dollars in fight prizes, future endorsements, fame, etc...on the line......still tap out when they know they're about to pass out from a triangle in the UFC.


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## Steve

PoolMan said:


> To answer the original question, I would never put someone in a triangle in a SD situation. I have seen people do this and get picked up and body slammed too many times, and on concrete getting slammed is a fight finisher. Also you expose your genital area with a triangle. One arm is in and one is out, right? The arm that is free can easily punch, grab, etc. the family jewels. Not good. I also witnessed a fight once where guy 1 got guy 2 into a triangle. Guy 2 tried his best to get out of it and couldn't. So what did he do? He poked guy 1 in the @$$hole. No joke. He jabbed him with his thumb as hard as he could. Guy 1 was so surprised (and probably in pain) that he let guy 2 go immediately. Then guy 2 got in the mount and proceded to give guy 1 the beating of his life.



I'm glad I didn't see this one earlier.  This is utter nonsense.  A knife?  Yeah, that is a legitimate threat.  But you're saying you saw someone get dip sticked in a street fight?  Give me a break.

Your descriptions just don't make sense, biologically.  About the only thing someone could punch from a triangle is my butt cheek, and you can't generate a lot of power if you're posture is broken down and you're losing consciousness.  Frankly, if you're punching me in the *** with your outside arm, you're not paying attention to the inside arm, which is at risk for an armbar.  

Look.  I don't think a triangle is a good technique for a street fight, in general.  But let's be real, for Pete's sake.


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## arnisador

Steve said:


> I'm glad I didn't see this one earlier.  This is utter nonsense.  A knife?  Yeah, that is a legitimate threat.  But you're saying you saw someone get dip sticked in a street fight?



I'm skeptical about this too.



> Your descriptions just don't make sense, biologically.  About the only thing someone could punch from a triangle is my butt cheek, and you can't generate a lot of power if you're posture is broken down and you're losing consciousness.  Frankly, if you're punching me in the *** with your outside arm, you're not paying attention to the inside arm, which is at risk for an armbar.



This assumes everything is going right. I've done BJJ and I've been triangled by guys who hadn't cinched it yet and I could've nailed them in the yarbles with a short, driving one-knuckle punch that would've realigned their priorities. There may be a much bigger weight disparity than you're used to in a street fight. I think we both agree it's not a go-to self-defense move, but I certainly wouldn't assume it'd just work if I did try to do it.


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## Steve

arnisador said:


> I'm skeptical about this too.
> 
> 
> 
> This assumes everything is going right. I've done BJJ and I've been triangled by guys who hadn't cinched it yet and I could've nailed them in the yarbles with a short, driving one-knuckle punch that would've realigned their priorities. There may be a much bigger weight disparity than you're used to in a street fight. I think we both agree it's not a go-to self-defense move, but I certainly wouldn't assume it'd just work if I did try to do it.


So...  you're right.  But we should also not assume that someone who is competent in BJJ would force the submission.  Look, this is what I talked about before.  In order to have a cogent discussion about this, we have to fill in a lot of blanks and make a lot of presumptions.  It's like an endless circle where people say, 'what if?' followed by, "if that, I'd do this."  

For the sake of the conversation, I'll put out a few of my presumptions regarding this situation.  First, that a person competent in BJJ (I'd say high blue and above) would not consider a triangle his "go to" self defense technique.  The only potential exception is if he was something of a specialist.  I've rolled with guys who can catch an armbar from anywhere.  I've rolled with guys who can catch a triangle from anywhere.  I know how to defend the triangle, but these guys get them from angles and set ups that are sneaky and effective, and the submission is deep and fast.  

Second, that even if a triangle were attempted, a competent grappler would not attempt to force the submission.  If it's not there, particularly in a street fight, a competent grappler would move to something else.  In other words, if the triangle was attempted and not deep, an experienced jiu-jitiero would go for the arm or a sweep or create space to stand up. All of those options are available depending upon what the person you're grappling with does.  Bottom line: it depends. 

Just think about this.  The simplest concept to avoiding a triangle is to either keep both arms in or both arms out.  You will get triangled only if one arm is isolated.  So, in order to defend the triangle you start with good posture to avoid the choke and then work to do one of three things:  clear the inside arm, clear your head or get your outside arm in.  The third option isn't often there.  The only way you could punch me in my gonads is if you had room to get your arm back inside, and that would only happen if I didn't really have a triangle.  In a triangle, I'm putting pressure on the back of your head, compromising your posture.  Your inside arm is probably in danger of being armbarred.  The only real targets for a punch would be to my *** cheek, possibly a kidney or something on my back, but the amount of power you'd be able to generate is questionable.  

The only real dangers to me would be if you had a knife or if you had a friend.


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## PoolMan

Steve said:


> I'm glad I didn't see this one earlier.  This is utter nonsense.  A knife?  Yeah, that is a legitimate threat.  But you're saying you saw someone get dip sticked in a street fight?  Give me a break.
> 
> Your descriptions just don't make sense, biologically.  About the only thing someone could punch from a triangle is my butt cheek, and you can't generate a lot of power if you're posture is broken down and you're losing consciousness.  Frankly, if you're punching me in the *** with your outside arm, you're not paying attention to the inside arm, which is at risk for an armbar.
> 
> Look.  I don't think a triangle is a good technique for a street fight, in general.  But let's be real, for Pete's sake.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



I am only telling you what I witnessed. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to me.

And I don't understand what you mean by "your discriptions just don't make sense, biologically". Did you mean anatomically?


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## PoolMan

Mz1 said:


> Looks like you haven't fought MMA against someone who's decent or good, say a BJJ Blue or Purple and above. I was being  very generous with that 3 seconds to slip on a  triangle.
> 
> An experienced fighter vs. someone equally trained....as soon as they're being taken down to the ground and onto their back, will usually start transitioning into a triangle choke attempt WHILE, on the way down (before their back hits the ground), if Triangles are one of their strong points. The triangle may already be locked within 1 second or less, and the passing out stage beings around the 2 second mark. This was how I got caught by someone better than me at grappling. It was just  ONE quick move where he threw both of his legs and yanked my arm... once I took him down and his back hit the ground.... while we were dry and not all sweaty yet. It was already too late to try to pick him up. His balls aren't even accessible to me from this position.
> 
> See, you obviously aren't grappling in a good BJJ/MMA joint if you think you can grab at balls that easily. You can even TRY to bite too if you want (although you'd be biting your own arm). Just know, that now you've escalated the situation to where payback in pain or maiming is inevitable. Hell, where your head is currently at or already trapped....as soon as I feel my balls being grabbed, I'm going to remove 1 or 2 of your eyeballs.



I have fought against many an MMA fighter. I have never been put into a triangle in a self-defense situation though and never said I had. Only that I had witnessed it happen, and  that it didn't pan out too well for them.


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## punisher73

PoolMan said:


> I have fought against many an MMA fighter. I have never been put into a triangle in a self-defense situation though and never said I had. Only that I had witnessed it happen, and  that it didn't pan out too well for them.



Here is the problem with all of these types of arguments.  You stated that you fought against "many an MMA fighter".  What does that mean?  Someone who goes to a class once in a while and sits around talking instead of training, or someone who legitimately trains in differing martial arts?  What is the skill level?  If I fought against a BJJ newbie and beat him because he hadn't learned/practiced clinching and takedowns from the standing position, it is more a reflection on the person's skill level and not on BJJ.  Most of the people I have run across claim to be an "MMA fighter" and have never taken any proper classes at all, but just like the sound of it and want to impress people.

It goes back to my same complaint against people who talk about your "average streetfight".  Is it 2 people with a beef and are agreeing to duke it out?  Is it a criminal assault?  Most of the people I know who get into fights (outside of professions that require it, or it is a part of their job) are in places or locations where liquor is involved and are avoidable.  

I've been attacked by some pretty low skill people as well working in LE, and I chalk it up to them being inept NOT the system they were claiming or attempting to use wasn't practical.  Just about ANY martial art that is made fun of on here or claimed to be ineffective on places like Bullshido I can tell you a story of someone I know who used that same martial art to protect themselves out on the street (aikido, boxing, TKD, Hapkido, karate to name a few).


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## Steve

PoolMan said:


> I am only telling you what I witnessed. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to me.
> 
> And I don't understand what you mean by "your discriptions just don't make sense, biologically". Did you mean anatomically?



Yes.  Your description doesn't make sense anatomically.  It just doesn't work.  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Tez3

Would this work better....?


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## Cyriacus

Steve said:


> Yes.  Your description doesn't make sense anatomically.  It just doesn't work.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Never mind anatomy - Psychologically it makes no sense.


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## Steve

PoolMan said:


> I am only telling you what I witnessed. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to me.
> 
> And I don't understand what you mean by "your discriptions just don't make sense, biologically". Did you mean anatomically?


Okay.  Giving you every benefit of the doubt I can, is it possible you "saw" something but don't have enough experience to understand what you saw?   Your description really doesn't make sense on any level.


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## PoolMan

Cyriacus said:


> Never mind anatomy - Psychologically it makes no sense.



I don't really see how Psychology plays into it. Could you please elaborate?


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## PoolMan

punisher73 said:


> Here is the problem with all of these types of arguments.  You stated that you fought against "many an MMA fighter".  What does that mean?  Someone who goes to a class once in a while and sits around talking instead of training, or someone who legitimately trains in differing martial arts?  What is the skill level?  If I fought against a BJJ newbie and beat him because he hadn't learned/practiced clinching and takedowns from the standing position, it is more a reflection on the person's skill level and not on BJJ.  Most of the people I have run across claim to be an "MMA fighter" and have never taken any proper classes at all, but just like the sound of it and want to impress people.
> 
> It goes back to my same complaint against people who talk about your "average streetfight".  Is it 2 people with a beef and are agreeing to duke it out?  Is it a criminal assault?  Most of the people I know who get into fights (outside of professions that require it, or it is a part of their job) are in places or locations where liquor is involved and are avoidable.
> 
> I've been attacked by some pretty low skill people as well working in LE, and I chalk it up to them being inept NOT the system they were claiming or attempting to use wasn't practical.  Just about ANY martial art that is made fun of on here or claimed to be ineffective on places like Bullshido I can tell you a story of someone I know who used that same martial art to protect themselves out on the street (aikido, boxing, TKD, Hapkido, karate to name a few).



I really can't be sure of the skill level of the people I have fought. I didn't wait around for them to wake up and ask them LOL


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## PoolMan

Steve said:


> Okay.  Giving you every benefit of the doubt I can, is it possible you "saw" something but don't have enough experience to understand what you saw?   Your description really doesn't make sense on any level.



I have plenty of experience


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## Steve

PoolMan said:


> I have plenty of experience


Yeah.  Okay.  Listen, I'm going to just stop the madness now.  It sounds like you're going to persist in this, so have at it.  Enjoy living in a world where life is hard on the mean streets of Sacramento, where sticking your finger in another guys' butt is a viable self defense tactic, and people have giant gonads that hang so low they make it hard to walk.   So, believe you or not?  I don't believe you.  I just don't.  It's like in the 40 Year Old Virgin when Steve Carrell's character is trying to describe sex when he's never had it.  Breasts just don't feel like bags of sand (if anyone doesn't get that reference, you owe it to yourself to watch the movie.  It's great). 

http://youtu.be/Vn3IRHhPXMo?t=1m5s (NSFW for language and sexual references)

Arnisador, you owe me, man!  I blame you for chiding me into actually taking the time to try and make sense of this thread!


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## arnisador

Put it down as another fight you've won!


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## PoolMan

Steve said:


> Yeah.  Okay.  Listen, I'm going to just stop the madness now.  It sounds like you're going to persist in this, so have at it.  Enjoy living in a world where life is hard on the mean streets of Sacramento, where sticking your finger in another guys' butt is a viable self defense tactic, and people have giant gonads that hang so low they make it hard to walk.   So, believe you or not?  I don't believe you.  I just don't.  It's like in the 40 Year Old Virgin when Steve Carrell's character is trying to describe sex when he's never had it.  Breasts just don't feel like bags of sand (if anyone doesn't get that reference, you owe it to yourself to watch the movie.  It's great).
> 
> http://youtu.be/Vn3IRHhPXMo?t=1m5s (NSFW for language and sexual references)
> 
> Arnisador, you owe me, man!  I blame you for chiding me into actually taking the time to try and make sense of this thread!



That 40 year old virgin analogy is pretty funny lol. Ok, we'll agree to disagree. Fine by me. This is going nowhere anyway. At least nowhere productive. Thank you all for your comments.


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## Mz1

PoolMan said:


> I have fought against many an MMA fighter. I have never been put into a triangle in a self-defense situation though and never said I had. Only that I had witnessed it happen, and  that it didn't pan out too well for them.



MMA fighters can mean a guy who just had his first and only fight in MMA and lost. He's still an MMA fighter though. Some people train MMA, but don't even fight. Most just do BJJ only. Based on what you posted about how you think you can just grab someone's nuts and such, it just shows that you've never really fought against anyone who's not a noob.  

And did you really fight them by going for KO's or was it just grappling with no punches and kicks?


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## RTKDCMB

LOve the Fraggle rock reference.


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