# "the mistaken counter"



## mook jong man (Apr 16, 2012)

One of the primary defenses we use against a straight punch in our lineage is a technique we call "Counter-Pierce".
It is a Tan Sau  (pinky side) used against the outside of the opponents punching wrist , it has the ability to both deflect the punch and strike through to the opponent in one efficient movement.

But being humans sometimes we will make an error , we think he is going to punch with one hand but actually he punches with the other hand.
Our Tan Sau hits empty space where we thought his hand would be , we could continue to strike through , but this could be risky if he has a reach advantage and remember he is punching in a straight line too and his other hand is already on its way.

All is not lost however , with a technique that really demonstrates how any Wing Chun technique can be interrupted and then instantly convert into something else with minimal movement.

We use what we call "The Mistaken Counter" , using our previously mentioned Tan Sau , breaking the rules a bit we take the Tan Sau  across the centreline to intercept the other incoming strike.
We deflect the strike over a little bit , just enough to redirect away from our face , and feed it into our waiting Wu Sau hand , where we then Lop Sau his striking arm and Fak Sau the throat.

Do any other lineages use this type of technique to recover from such an error , or do you use something else?


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## yak sao (Apr 16, 2012)

Here's something we do in the same vein:

Vs. a hook punch: If opponent is throwing a right hook we use an outfalling step with our right foot as the right hand punches the face and left arm performs fook sau to their punching arm (imagine a tan sau, but instead of palm up, it is palm down) We end up in a sideling stance facing our opponent's center.

If we get faked out and he actually throws a left hook, rather than trying to regroup and fall out to the other side after we've committed to the right side, we simply stay behind our hands and allow their left hook to deform our right  punch into bong sau...we then punch under our bong sau to the opponents face with our left hand.


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## yak sao (Apr 16, 2012)

here is a video of my old sisok performing the defense vs a right roundhouse punch.
I will try to find the bong sau variation....BTW ignore the red(orange?) pants, he lives in Los Angeles and I'm sure his pants are considered very conservative there

http://youtu.be/tfCcpyqO4Io


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## yak sao (Apr 16, 2012)

closest I could find to the bong variation...in this clip he is going against chain punching.

Vs a hook, the bong would possibly deform a little higher and the left punch would then go under the bong sau

http://youtu.be/rP6N3zuyLaA


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## Nabakatsu (Apr 16, 2012)

I had no idea that was done in previous Leung Ting lineages, I thought it was https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...q=kenneth+kernspecht&spell=1&biw=1280&bih=918  kernspecht or Emin's invention. The hand that normally would outside fook sau goes to punch, get's deformed, to a higher-ish bong sau, if you can get it that high, the rear hand punches underneath, to guide the arm away, and the bong sau is striking. I love that variation, no such thing as a wrong step. Gotta drill the crap out of the apps to make this viable. But I love it! Thanks for sharing Yak!


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## yak sao (Apr 16, 2012)

Nabakatsu said:


> I had no idea that was done in previous Leung Ting lineages, I thought it was kernspecht or Emin's invention. The hand that normally would outside fook sau goes to punch, get's deformed, to a higher-ish bong sau, if you can get it that high, the rear hand punches underneath, to guide the arm away, and the bong sau is striking. I love that variation, no such thing as a wrong step. Gotta drill the crap out of the apps to make this viable. But I love it! Thanks for sharing Yak!



No prob....but Emin was my first sifu....that's where I learned it


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## Nabakatsu (Apr 16, 2012)

Huh, I had it in my head Leung Ting for whatever reason, my bad!


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## hunt1 (Apr 16, 2012)

MJM, I may be a bit confused here.You seem to be describing dealing with a jab cross combo. You anticipate the jab but instead a cross comes. is this correct? You have 2 hands. What is the other hand doing? If you are talking about intercepting a jab with the outside hand tan sau ( This would give you  the pinky side of tan against the outside of punching wrist you describe then why isn't your other hand in position to cover/pick off/intercept the other punch you are describing. Tan hand goes forward as strike and other hand protects from the opposite hand punch.

 It seems that what you are describing, having the tan cross over to pick off the cross opens you up for the follow up jab that is surely coming. Also by crossing you are limiting the use of the other hand aren't you? Seems like you are using 2 hands to protect against 1.


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## hunt1 (Apr 16, 2012)

Yak sao, sorry but Bad stuff in that video. The guy in the orange is stepping right into the cross that will be coming hence getting himself knocked out. Hole thing is based on a drunk throwing a huge looping round punch and totally committed to it. Any trained fighter will not do this and will be following up the lead punch with a backhand punch. Untrained street fighters will do the same, throwing an attack from the backhand right behind the front hand attack. Stepping right into the backhand attack while hoping that you can actually lop and disrupt before you are hit with the back hand is a bad idea.


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## yak sao (Apr 16, 2012)

yes if you stay at range and throw one punch, you're right...you'll get your clock cleaned. But if you are rocking him back on his heels as you move into his space, there's not going to be much of a second punch to deal with.


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## wtxs (Apr 16, 2012)

MJM - assuming we are talking an face-to-face drill ... we cycles the "waiting Wu" into your "counter-pierce" or any other shapes, and the initial "counter-pierce" to replace the now converted Wu.  The new "waiting Wu" will save your butt ... cause the punch you had anticipated IS coming this time.   

Taking the Tan across your center line leaves the upper gate wide open ...just MHO.


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## yak sao (Apr 16, 2012)

Hunt....how do you deal with hook punches? Do you have a video example that I could see?
Thanks


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## mook jong man (Apr 16, 2012)

hunt1 said:


> MJM, I may be a bit confused here.You seem to be describing dealing with a jab cross combo. You anticipate the jab but instead a cross comes. is this correct? You have 2 hands. What is the other hand doing? If you are talking about intercepting a jab with the outside hand tan sau ( This would give you  the pinky side of tan against the outside of punching wrist you describe then why isn't your other hand in position to cover/pick off/intercept the other punch you are describing. Tan hand goes forward as strike and other hand protects from the opposite hand punch.
> 
> It seems that what you are describing, having the tan cross over to pick off the cross opens you up for the follow up jab that is surely coming. Also by crossing you are limiting the use of the other hand aren't you? Seems like you are using 2 hands to protect against 1.



No you are not confused.
The lead hand is already out there because you were anticipating a punch , so since it is already forward and out there  it may as well do something and try and stop this other incoming punch in its infancy before it can build up power , rather than wait for it to get all the way to my back hand .
The second hand will also come up to help deflect the incoming punch.

It does not leave you open because even with the initial counterpierce movement we have started to step in , by the time we have deflected the punch slightly across (only a very minimal movement across) we are almost upon them and ready to strike with the Fak Sau.
Even if he did try too punch with the other hand ,  the Fak Sau could be raised a little higher to close that avenue off and jam his attempted punch.

The reasoning behind it is , with very fast straight punches you want to try and stop them with your front hand if at all possible , that way if something goes wrong the sensitivity of your front arm will tell you that the incoming punch has got through the perimeter of your front arm and your back hand better be ready to do something .

If I wait for it to get to the back hand then I have less time to react , and being the last line of defence if it goes wrong I am hit .


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## mook jong man (Apr 16, 2012)

wtxs said:


> MJM - assuming we are talking an face-to-face drill ... we cycles the "waiting Wu" into your "counter-pierce" or any other shapes, and the initial "counter-pierce" to replace the now converted Wu.  The new "waiting Wu" will save your butt ... cause the punch you had anticipated IS coming this time.
> 
> Taking the Tan across your center line leaves the upper gate wide open ...just MHO.



As I said to Hunt it is only a very slight movement across , just enough to deflect then convert straight into the Fak Sau.
A slight raising of your Fak Sau elbow will take care of any attempted punch from the other side.
I don't want to depend on a Wu Sau alone to stand up to the force of a rear right cross , it is going to need a little bit of help, and that is where redirecting the punch slightly over with your Tan Sau will help.

As I said the Tan Sau hand is already forward and in his space , so why not take the opportunity to take care of this punch in its early phase , rather than waiting for it to build up speed and power and hit the back hand.
In practice it is a very fast fluid movement and doesn't really give any opportunity for the opponent to punch with the other hand before he is hit , because you are moving in right from the start of the initial attack.

To my mind it is a recovery technique from the Biu Jee and those movements tend to cross the centreline.
Think of it this way , imagine if one of your arms were injured and you only had the one to use , how would you stop an opponent with fast straight punches?
What techniques would you use , probably something very similar to what I described I imagine.


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## wtxs (Apr 16, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> As I said the *Tan Sau hand is already forward and in his space , so why not take the opportunity* to take care of this punch in its early phase , rather than waiting for it to build up speed and power and hit the back hand.
> In practice it is a very fast fluid movement and doesn't really give any opportunity for the opponent to punch with the other hand before he is hit , because you are moving in right from the start of the initial attack.



What you had outlined is one of may options.  How ever, if we were to apply the economy of motion concept ... you intercept/forward Tan should turn into an attack, since you had or is moving forward into his space, while your waiting Wu launch followup attack(s).


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## Vajramusti (Apr 16, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> One of the primary defenses we use against a straight punch in our lineage is a technique we call "Counter-Pierce".
> It is a Tan Sau  (pinky side) used against the outside of the opponents punching wrist , it has the ability to both deflect the punch and strike through to the opponent in one efficient movement.
> 
> But being humans sometimes we will make an error , we think he is going to punch with one hand but actually he punches with the other hand.
> ...


--------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse me if I don't fully understand the problem. I don't think too much. If I sense a move I attack- let the hands think for themselves. I have two hands both work together- if an attack angle is suddenly changed by the opponent- a small but appropriate chum kiu move(turn)takes care of it.

joy chaudhuri


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## mook jong man (Apr 16, 2012)

wtxs said:


> What you had outlined is one of may options.  How ever, if we were to apply the economy of motion concept ... you intercept/forward Tan should turn into an attack, since you had or is moving forward into his space, while your waiting Wu launch followup attack(s).



That is true mate , but the problem is that he may have a longer reach than you and he has initiated the attack so you are already "playing catch up
So his punch may get to you first as you are in the process of moving into range to deliver yours thereby rendering your blow ineffective.

Also you are just relying on your Wu Sau to be able to handle the force of a fully fledged cross from their rear hand , the Wu Sau is not in the "optimum angle" like your front hand and is structurally not going to be as resistant to the incoming force and might be in danger of collapse.

Wu Sau can stand up to pressure , but in most cases it needs to be reinforced or augmented by some action with the front arm as well.


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## wtxs (Apr 17, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> That is true mate , but the problem is that he may have a longer reach than you and he has initiated the attack so you are already "playing catch up
> So his punch may get to you first as you are in the process of moving into range to deliver yours thereby rendering your blow ineffective.
> 
> Also you are just relying on your Wu Sau to be able to handle the force of a fully fledged cross from their rear hand , the Wu Sau is not in the "optimum angle" like your front hand and is structurally not going to be as resistant to the incoming force and might be in danger of collapse.
> ...



My teacher is big on simplicity, since you are already moving forward ( hopefully off-line to his flank) in respond to the perceived punch, you are not there for his intended punch to connect, but you are correct about the danger of the secondary strike from the other side.

Personally, I convert the Tan into any of the attacking hand since I'm already into his space, my Wu can be transition into any thing which may required.  His "rear" punch when it does happen, can be handle by cycling back my initial hand/arm from the counter attack.


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## hunt1 (Apr 17, 2012)

Yak Sao not ignoring you just really busy with work. Will be back on by Friday.


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## mook jong man (Apr 17, 2012)

wtxs said:


> My teacher is big on simplicity, since you are already moving forward ( hopefully off-line to his flank) in respond to the perceived punch, you are not there for his intended punch to connect, but you are correct about the danger of the secondary strike from the other side.
> 
> Personally, I convert the Tan into any of the attacking hand since I'm already into his space, my Wu can be transition into any thing which may required.  His "rear" punch when it does happen, can be handle by cycling back my initial hand/arm from the counter attack.



The kind of range I am talking about , there is no moving offline , there is not enough warning or time at your disposal.
You can either move directly straight in ,which is the best or stay in the same spot and wait for him to come to you.

But unless it is a very telegraphed charging punch , you won' have time to move to his flank , just to be clear I am talking about close range where he is only about half a step away.

In my experience ,the best the Wu Sau can do once you sense that the incoming strike has made it past your front hand is to either raise up and try to deflect upwards or more likely a Pak Sau is used to redirect laterally.

But generally it won't do anything like trying to recycle forward , because the incoming punch has already beaten it past your front hand and is already there in contact with your back hand , you simply don't have the time.

On this one we will have to agree to disagree brother.


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## WingChunIan (Apr 18, 2012)

Leaving terminology aside as every lineage describes things differently, if I understand you correctly I see no reason whatsoever to push your arm across the centre. Again if I have interpreted your terminology correctly, the hand should be perfectly positioned to drive straight into a punch leaving the Wu Sao to either change into tan, biu or pak to deal with the incoming punch. Why add in an extra movement? and why compromise your centreline when you don't need to?


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## Domino (Apr 18, 2012)

I don't think there is an extra movement, just acting accordingly with front hand and changing the direction. Centre line is a small price to pay ..


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## mook jong man (Apr 18, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> Leaving terminology aside as every lineage describes things differently, if I understand you correctly I see no reason whatsoever *to push your arm across the centre.* Again if I have interpreted your terminology correctly, the hand should be perfectly positioned to drive straight into a punch leaving the Wu Sao to either change into tan, biu or pak to deal with the incoming punch. Why add in an extra movement? and why compromise your centreline when you don't need to?



Because the arm is already out there , your Wu Sau is back guarding your throat , it is not in an optimal angle to deal with a lot of force without some assistance from your front hand , and a very minimal sweep across with your Tan Sau will open up a gap and allow you to more easily get in.

Thinking that your back hand will somehow come forward into the optimal angle and perform a Tan or Biu is not realistic in my opinion , you barely have enough time to raise your Wu Sau as it is , so my argument is that your back hand will be collapsed and their punch will get through or at the very least hinder your movement forward so that you can deliver your own strike 

As to compromising the centreline we do that everytime we do a Pak Sau , what is the difference with slightly moving your Tan Sau across to sweep away a punch , besides , your Wu sau is still on the centreline to provide back up.
The point is , the front arm is already close to their punching arm , rather than taking a big risk and letting it get all the way to your back arm where it has built up speed and maybe able to get through the last line of defence , why not gain contact and nip it in the bud in the early phase.


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## wtxs (Apr 18, 2012)

I will have to say this has been the best exchange of ideas in a long time. :cheers:


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## WingChunIan (Apr 18, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Because the arm is already out there , your Wu Sau is back guarding your throat , it is not in an optimal angle to deal with a lot of force without some assistance from your front hand , and a very minimal sweep across with your Tan Sau will open up a gap and allow you to more easily get in.
> 
> Thinking that your back hand will somehow come forward into the optimal angle and perform a Tan or Biu is not realistic in my opinion , you barely have enough time to raise your Wu Sau as it is , so my argument is that your back hand will be collapsed and their punch will get through or at the very least hinder your movement forward so that you can deliver your own strike
> 
> ...



I'll try to video something with a student to illustrate my point. If my hand has come forward into the shape you describe if it makes no contact with anything it is going straight into the target with no hesitation, this in itself will diminish the power in the incoming strike. Secondly my wu sau is already forward, maybe you have a different concept of wu sau structure, if you train to hold the wu sau very far back and not forward of the elbow then i agree it may collapse, we don't train that way so turning the Wu into another shape is instant and happens concurrently with the forward thrust of the other hand. Finally I assume that you have turned / angled with the intial response? I understand your claim that stepping may be out of the question given the speed of action but a simple change of angle would always be part of my inital movement which moves my head away from the intended target area thus making the initial strike less likely to land and also providing more space for the wu to transition. With regard to compromising the centreline every time you do pak sau, I can only say that you must do pak sau very differently to me, the only time pak sau compromises the centre in the way I do it is if I apply it to the inside of the arm which I only do if either forced into a last ditch recovery (ie my other arm has been taken out of the equation by a grab or similar) or if the opponents other arm has already been taken out of the equation. I'd equally question your logic regarding the front arm being close to the punch whilst saying the wu sao won't have time to change shape. If the punch has set off and you've misjudged it then if its got anything like reasonable speed and power it is almost certainly already past your lead hand. 
Only a different opinion of course, as I said i'll try to video something as we may be talking at crossed purposes.


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## mook jong man (Apr 18, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> I'll try to video something with a student to illustrate my point. If my hand has come forward into the shape you describe if it makes no contact with anything it is going straight into the target with no hesitation, this in itself will diminish the power in the incoming strike. Secondly my wu sau is already forward, maybe you have a different concept of wu sau structure, if you train to hold the wu sau very far back and not forward of the elbow then i agree it may collapse, we don't train that way so turning the Wu into another shape is instant and happens concurrently with the forward thrust of the other hand. Finally I assume that you have turned / angled with the intial response? I understand your claim that stepping may be out of the question given the speed of action but a simple change of angle would always be part of my inital movement which moves my head away from the intended target area thus making the initial strike less likely to land and also providing more space for the wu to transition. With regard to compromising the centreline every time you do pak sau, I can only say that you must do pak sau very differently to me, the only time pak sau compromises the centre in the way I do it is if I apply it to the inside of the arm which I only do if either forced into a last ditch recovery (ie my other arm has been taken out of the equation by a grab or similar) or if the opponents other arm has already been taken out of the equation. I'd equally question your logic regarding the front arm being close to the punch whilst saying the wu sao won't have time to change shape. If the punch has set off and you've misjudged it then if its got anything like reasonable speed and power it is almost certainly already past your lead hand.
> Only a different opinion of course, as I said i'll try to video something as we may be talking at crossed purposes.



I don't think you will be able to pivot either , if I'm right in front of you with both my hands an even distance from your head , you will only have a nanosecond for your brain to process the information and decide which way to pivot.
He only has to move one limb you have to pivot your whole body one way or the other.
In stepping forward you only have one decision to make , that is move forward as soon as you see movement.

The point of contact for your Tan Sau will be somewhere on his upper forearm , because the horse has already bolted past the point for wrist contact.

You say that your front hand will just continue in and strike the opponent , thats fine and dandy if the opponent has roughly the same reach as you.
But if it's a tall dude with long arms , his strike will probably get to you first , which brings us back to this little problem of his fist about to smash into your cheek bone.

The fastest movement you can do with the back hand one that is more in line with a natural flinch response and one that is more likely to happen under pressure is for you to simply raise your Wu Sau a few inches to provide a barrier to your face.

In regards to Pak Sau I normally parry the outside of the arm as well , but to recover from an error I will parry the inside of the arm.

If you say you have your Wu Sau forward then that means you will have both hands forward against straight punches , which leaves a great big gaping hole for any uppercuts he might decide to do or a throat grab.

You are correct in that the mistaken counter is two movements , but they are two very fast minimal movements that allow you to get at least one of his arms under control and trapped very quickly as you strike through.


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## Eric_H (Apr 18, 2012)

Been trying to envision the scenario in my head, and I'm not sure if I have the spacing/angle worked out as you guys are describing. 

In general terms if you shoot with the wrong hand, and the other side of the opponent is coming, we could use the front hand covering forward to the shoulder line with a sideways footwork towards the attacking limb to catch it. 

Other same-hand options are mostly limited to pak-ing to the ear (very last-ditch).


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## mook jong man (Apr 18, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Been trying to envision the scenario in my head, and I'm not sure if I have the spacing/angle worked out as you guys are describing.
> 
> In general terms if you shoot with the wrong hand, and the other side of the opponent is coming, we could use the front hand covering forward to the shoulder line with a sideways footwork towards the attacking limb to catch it.
> 
> Other same-hand options are mostly limited to pak-ing to the ear (very last-ditch).



Easiest way to describe it , is he throws a fake straight punch with one hand , basically nothing more than a flinch but enough to draw you into countering with a Tan Sau on the same side arm.

He then immediately throws a real straight punch with his other hand directly down the other side which you were totally unprepared for.


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## WingChunIan (Apr 19, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> I don't think you will be able to pivot either , if I'm right in front of you with both my hands an even distance from your head , you will only have a nanosecond for your brain to process the information and decide which way to pivot.
> He only has to move one limb you have to pivot your whole body one way or the other.
> In stepping forward you only have one decision to make , that is move forward as soon as you see movement.
> 
> ...



These debates are why I love forums like this. Regarding footwork, I can turn far quicker than I can step in any direction be it forwards backwards sidewards or any combination of the above as I don't have to lift my feet off the floor. I have the same decision to make as I would if I wanted to step forward, my brain interprets the information and I turn selecting a side based on instinct. If I choose the correct side then this debate is irrelevant if i choose wrong then we have teh scenario in question. Either way the turn moves my head from the original target location so unless the incoming punch has significant curvature (ie a round punch or hook) reach is irrelevant and the turn also moves my outgoing hand closer by a couple of inches thus increasing my own range. As for having the Wu sao forward leaving a big hole for an uppercut, that only holds true if the person throwing the uppercut has telescopic arms which as most humans don't means that any upper cut is stopped forearm to forearm by the wu sao or by the upper arm of the striking hand (I train with lots of ex boxers, thai boxers and kick boxers and they all concur that an uppercut aint getting through after trying a few times). If its a throat grab then its no different to a straight punch it gets dealt with the same way. As far as the wu sao natural reaction, years of chi sau have changed my natural reactions from a flinch to a forwarding response.
If I follow your preffered approach remind me again what is stopping the second punch from taking your head off as you execute your fak sao?


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## mook jong man (Apr 19, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> These debates are why I love forums like this. Regarding footwork, I can turn far quicker than I can step in any direction be it forwards backwards sidewards or any combination of the above as I don't have to lift my feet off the floor. I have the same decision to make as I would if I wanted to step forward, my brain interprets the information and I turn selecting a side based on instinct. If I choose the correct side then this debate is irrelevant if i choose wrong then we have teh scenario in question. Either way the turn moves my head from the original target location so unless the incoming punch has significant curvature (ie a round punch or hook) reach is irrelevant and the turn also moves my outgoing hand closer by a couple of inches thus increasing my own range. As for having the Wu sao forward leaving a big hole for an uppercut, that only holds true if the person throwing the uppercut has telescopic arms which as most humans don't means that any upper cut is stopped forearm to forearm by the wu sao or by the upper arm of the striking hand (I train with lots of ex boxers, thai boxers and kick boxers and they all concur that an uppercut aint getting through after trying a few times). If its a throat grab then its no different to a straight punch it gets dealt with the same way. As far as the wu sao natural reaction, years of chi sau have changed my natural reactions from a flinch to a forwarding response.
> If I follow your preffered approach remind me again what is stopping the second punch from taking your head off as you execute your fak sao?



He will probably be torqueing his shoulder forward after he has done his fake to generate power for his real punch , by the time he has tried to torque his shoulder back again he can't do it because I have latched his arm down from my Wu Sau.

In practical terms, the latching of his arm down will have an effect on his balance , and by stepping forward your forearm will reach his throat before he gets to reset and fire off another punch.
Even if he did he will be so close and cramped up that any force he can generate will be negligible .


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## Eric_H (Apr 20, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Easiest way to describe it , is he throws a fake straight punch with one hand , basically nothing more than a flinch but enough to draw you into countering with a Tan Sau on the same side arm.
> 
> He then immediately throws a real straight punch with his other hand directly down the other side which you were totally unprepared for.



Ok cool, then yes, what I described (a form of Tien Yan Dei Kiu Sao) will work.


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## mook jong man (Apr 20, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Ok cool, then yes, what I described (a form of Tien Yan Dei Kiu Sao) will work.



If it's the same as ours then basically your front arm just ricochets off his punching arm and straight into his throat as your Wu Sau hand pulls his punching arm down.
I think people are under the impression that you are pushing your arm way over the centreline , it's only a very small movement and then your forearm ends up rammed into his throat before he can punch again from the other side.


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## naneek (May 2, 2012)

great discussion guys - i cant wait to see the video from wingchunian


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