# Yoshin Ryu Jujitsu



## Jonny Figgis

Does anyone know anything about Yoshin Ryu Jujitsu or the American Federation of Jujitsu? I wanted to find out about this style and this organisation. If anyone knows anything about either, I'd love to hear your thoughts.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshin_Ryu


Koryu.com list it as:


http://www.koryu.com/guide/yoshin.html


----------



## Saitama Steve

The Yoshin-ryu is a dead school of jujutsu. There are no remaining dojo in or out of Japan. There are however, a number of branch schools such as Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, Ryushin Kacchu-ryu etc, that are of Yoshin-ryu lineage. 

If you are looking for genuine Yoshin-ryu related technique, I'm afraid you would have to travel to Japan, the United Kingdom, the United States or Australia to train. 

The Yoshin-ryu mentioned in the American Federation of "ju-jitsu" is not the same Yoshin-ryu founded by Akiyama Shirobei. Try to do some homework on koryu and read up on related articles as much as possible. It's the only way you won't be led up the garden path by people claiming to teach something the aren't licenced in.


----------



## jtweymo

Japanese ryuha websites for various Yoshin ryu based schools:

http://hwm6.gyao.ne.jp/yoshinryu/sub1.html

Honati yoshin takagi ryu (mokuroku at bottom of page):
http://kobe.cool.ne.jp/ikkansai/takagiryu.htm

You can find plenty of Japanese websites for various forms of yoshin ryu, just by cutting and pasting these kanji into the google search engine: 
&#26954;&#24515;&#27969;  and here's another common form of the name:  &#38525;&#24515;&#27969;. Cut and paste those into the search engine and the links will lead to various Japanese videos, schools and websites.

If you need some help translating the Japanese language, leave me a message and the web address and I'll see what I can do for ya.


----------



## Saitama Steve

jtweymo said:


> Japanese ryuha websites for various Yoshin ryu based schools:
> 
> http://hwm6.gyao.ne.jp/yoshinryu/sub1.html
> 
> Honati yoshin takagi ryu (mokuroku at bottom of page):
> http://kobe.cool.ne.jp/ikkansai/takagiryu.htm
> 
> You can find plenty of Japanese websites for various forms of yoshin ryu, just by cutting and pasting these kanji into the google search engine:
> &#26954;&#24515;&#27969; and here's another common form of the name: &#38525;&#24515;&#27969;. Cut and paste those into the search engine and the links will lead to various Japanese videos, schools and websites.
> 
> If you need some help translating the Japanese language, leave me a message and the web address and I'll see what I can do for ya.


 

Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu is NOT, Yoshin-ryu based. It has no lineal relations to Akiyama Yoshin-ryu or it's offshoots in any way, shape or form. 

Takagi-ryu (Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu et al) are based mainly on Takeuchi-ryu kogusoku. This is backed up by historical documentation. 

If you do not know, do not post.


----------



## MarkBarlow

Saitama Steve said:


> If you do not know, do not post.



This is perhaps the most worthwhile thing that will be posted today.  Granted, MT would have considerably fewer posters but the content would be vastly improved.


----------



## jks9199

Please review the Martial Talk rules, easily found HERE.  Pay special attention to:


> *1.10.5 Martial Talk Bashing*
> 
> Any member found to be bad mouthing the MartialTalk community at an outside location will be banned. If you do not care for this community, you really have no business here anyway.
> 
> There are sites that thrive on such negativity. We are not one of them.
> 
> The truth is, there are way too many websites, too few good ones, and even fewer websites that are managed well and have a good community of people. Don't waste your time bashing the forums that are not run properly or to your liking; it's like throwing a rock at a tree inside of a forest. You'll just get tired and you won't have the energy to hit them all. *If you have a problem with another forum, please deal with it there.*


jks9199
MartialTalk Moderator


----------



## Saitama Steve

Deleted


----------



## jtweymo

Hmm...Hi ya folks.

On the subject of the thread only: there's loads and loads of Yoshin schools and some come from very specific branches of the Yoshin tradition.

Mr. Figgis, did you have any specific form of Yoshin ryu based tradition in mind? There are lineage specific branches (as named above in other posts), there's gendai schools (modern, founded after 1888), koden and shinden (traditional by Japanese standards, usually Shinto based.) And, of course, there's koryu forms. 

Gendai schools from these traditions may be just about anything (it's even possible to find forms of Japanese karate being practiced under the name or including the name "Yoshin ryu".) Gendai may include Westernized schools that are not evident in Japan... some of these are based off Judo learned while the Westerner was stationed in Okinawa, or might have been formed ecclectrically by the Westerner themselves (from Judo techniques.) This is not necesarily invalid as a "Yoshin" school since Judo techniques come in large part from the Yoshin schools (Shinyo ryu and Tenshin ryu, kito ryu and so forth were the schools who gave Judo it's techniques.) So they are indeed Yoshin techniques when it comes from Judo (and similarly from Aikido.) Some westerners teach this ecclectric form of Judo/Jujutsu under the name "Yoshin" this or that.

Even in Japan this is true and one gets the same thing there.

The Koden and shinden schools might be gendai (founded after 1888) or they might have been founded prior to that date and be much older. The difference is that their content is considered traditional by Japanese standards and they are often Shinto based (they have something of a 'religious' orientation.) 

Koryu form of the Yoshin traditions are Butokukai lisenced (Japanese Imperial government approved historical schools founded before 1888, usually.) 

Hope that helps.


----------



## MarkBarlow

I believe the problem for most folks lies with an implied connection.  It seems misleading to have a style with the same or very similar name of  a recognizable and legitimate ryu, even if that ryu no longer exists.  Even though you say, "Oh, we're not *that* ryu." why else would you use that name if you did not want to give the false impression that some connection exists?  If I declare myself King Ferdinand of Spain but when asked about it say, "Oh, I'm not *that* King Ferdinand of Spain", I think you'd have to agree that I set myself up for the misunderstanding.


----------



## jtweymo

> MarkBarlowI believe the problem for most folks lies with an implied connection. It seems misleading to have a style with the same or very similar name of a recognizable and legitimate ryu, even if that ryu no longer exists. Even though you say, "Oh, we're not *that* ryu." why else would you use that name if you did not want to give the false impression that some connection exists? If I declare myself King Ferdinand of Spain but when asked about it say, "Oh, I'm not *that* King Ferdinand of Spain", I think you'd have to agree that I set myself up for the misunderstanding.


 

Hi ya MarkBarlow and the rest of ya,

Yeah that (statement) is true enough, to some extent or another. But the fact is that here in the United States and Great Britain as well as France and Germany... there's craploads of Jujutsu schools teaching "Yoshin ryu" or sometimes "Shinto yoshin ryu" and etc. This has been the case since the 1950's. These were frequently very small gendai schools brought to those countries by their own servicemen while stationed in Japan after WW2. 

Then of course ya got people in all these countries who learned Judo/Jujutsu from contact with those post war schools and they taught under the same name... or sometimes just settled with calling it "Judo" and left it at that.

The mistake comes from thinking that it cannot be an authentic Japanese martial art because it gets called "Yoshin ryu" or "Shinto yoshin ryu" when these (?koryu?) schools are said to be extinct. Both in and outside of Japan, there's craploads of gendai schools still using those ryuha names.

For example, RIGHT NOW, there's a Japanese gendai school named "Takagi ryu, jujutsu" that has a website on the net (all Japanese language.) This 'Takagi ryu' is not any relationship to the koryu orthodox Takagi ryu despite that has the exact same name. Instead, it's gendai goshinjutsu.

If a British or American person went and signed up at this gendai goshin jujutsu school in Japan, who's website is currently on the net (as we speak)... then came here to teach "Takagi ryu"... would we accuse them of misrepresenting their ryuha? The school dojo in Japan (pictured right on the website which is on the net RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK) the dojo in Japan teaching (gendai) Takagi ryu... would it be incorrect for the American or British person to claim that his Jujutsu was Takagi ryu?

Of course not.

Now here's the kicker... there's gendai dojos in Japan right now teaching "Yoshin ryu" but they don't have websites. The Takagi school I mentioned does.  People don't realize that there's lots of gendai dojos in Japan right now that teach "Yoshin ryu" but it's no relationship to koryu jujutsu at all. 

There are many many GENDAI dojos in Japan right now teaching "Tenshin ryu", "Tenshin shinyo ryu", "Shinto ryu", "Shinto yoshin ryu" and "Takeuchi no ryu" but none of these are koryu of those schools, strictly gendai goshin jujutsu. In fact... the gendai Takenouchi ryu jujutsu dojo... does have a website RIGHT NOW as we speak, posted to the net (all Japanese language.) People seem to ignore these gendai dojos but... they post to the net (in Japanese language) all the time.

It's schools like these that AMerican and British servicemen learned from... because they were cheaper. How do we know this? They reported it in books on Jujutsu written by themselves since the 1950's and even recorded the names of the Japanese instructors of those gendai dojos.


----------



## Saitama Steve

jtweymo said:


> There are many many GENDAI dojos in Japan right now teaching "Tenshin ryu", "Tenshin shinyo ryu", "Shinto ryu", "Shinto yoshin ryu" and "Takeuchi no ryu" but none of these are koryu of those schools, strictly gendai goshin jujutsu. In fact... the gendai Takenouchi ryu jujutsu dojo... does have a website RIGHT NOW as we speak, posted to the net (all Japanese language.) People seem to ignore these gendai dojos but... they post to the net (in Japanese language) all the time.


 
Seriously, are you taking the right medication? 

"Gendai Tenjin Shinyo ryu dojo"  and  a "Gendai Takenouchi ryu jujutsu dojo". 

Show the websites. 

Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is still extant, it's not a gendai, it's a koryu. It was founded in 1830. 

Takeuchi-ryu is even older, going back to 1532 it has written documentation of this, not to mention it's profound influence on other juutsu schools in the Kansai area of Japan and beyond. 

I have have been priviliged enough when I lived in Japan to have actually have experience in both.


----------



## MarkBarlow

The fact that multiple schools practice the same duplicity doesn't absolve you of doing it.  Also, I've looked at your website and the wording you use implies a direct connection to koryu.  Regardless of your explanations, this is misleading.
_"The style our school practices and teaches is *Shinden Yoshin Ryu, Jujutsu* based off a classical school of Japanese Jujutsu.The Yoshin Ryu was said to have served Bodyguards and Retainers in antiquity, who were not permitted to carry weapons of war within castle walls. As a result of this, the styles that derive from the Yoshin school characteristically move in a restricted fashion, utilizing body weight in motion to generate knock down power or to throw an opponent."  _This is taken from your website.  How can someone read this and not think you're claiming a connection that does not exist?


----------



## Jonny Figgis

Hi Jon

I have read a lot of the posts from this forum and others that links have been posts to, I have to say after reading the various posts back and forth it only serves to reinforce my dislike for the politicking in martial arts. It is endless! 

I admit, I'm not qualified to comment on whether this is Yoshin Ryu from the original source but the fact is that neither Jon nor the AFJ suggest that it is. Jon says it is "based off a classical school of Japanese Jujutsu'. It is his and the AFJ's interpretation of what is now considered a 'dead' art.

From the AFJ website: 

"Shihan Weymouth, Master Ellis and Master Moore, all who hold various Yudansha ranks and have different backgrounds in various other styles of Jujitsu and Judo, have been instrumental in studying, promoting and reviving this ancient art. Their work has been to achieve a "reenactment" of this ancient style through study, research and practice. Like any interpretations from ancient styles, there are discrepancies between different artist's interpretations of techniques. It is important to note that Weymouth, Ellis and Moore do not have any lineage from Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki, or any of his students, nor do they claim to be a final authority on the original techniques taught four centuries ago."

The website also states:

"Please don't take offense if styles and systems don't match technique to technique. The basic principles and movements should be the common denominator in similar arts. Remember it is important to promote unity then cause division. No matter who you workout with, step on the mat and have fun!"
 
I do know that 'Ed Parker's American Kenpo' is practised all over the world by many organisations that have a different curriculum. Some of the masters had been taught directly by Ed Parker while others hadn't. Some have adapted techniques or forms to how they believe they should be performed. They are all still considered to be 'Ed Parker's American Kenpo'. All martial arts started off as family systems and with this changes were made along the way, from one generation to the next. Martial arts evolve in time but they are still called by the same name.

Regarding what I wish to learn, I mainly train and teach self protection; a blend of elements from various martial arts and modern combative systems. I want to learn jujitsu as a personal interest and have no desire to become a jujitsu instructor. There are a lot better qualified and dedicated people to teach this martial art. It is not my main point of focus as I put most of my energy into the study and training for self protection. I do have an interest in jujitsu though so I will train in this system whether it is a classical martial art or a modern take on a classical martial art. This system caught my eye but it may well have been combat jujitsu or American Jujitsu or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

I don't wish to offend anymore but I focus on whether something is effective and I don't really focus on whether it has the correct lineage or not. With all the cross-training which is very common now and people learning from anywhere and everywhere it is more important to work effective techniques and principles. And again, I don't think that Jon or the AFJ are trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.


----------



## jtweymo

Ha Ha Ha... holy crow fellas!!

Jeez. How are all of you?

Okay, well then. humph. I got some news for all of ya, I HAD NO IDEA THOSE REMARKS POSTED BY MR. FIGGIS EXISTED AT ALL!! ha ha ha!!

It's been about two or three years since I logged onto the AFJ website... I had no idea it made such remarks. I DON'T MIND THE REMARKS BUT I WASN'T INVOLVED IN THEIR AUTHORING AND DIDN'T KNOW THEY EXISTED UNTIL TODAY. Heh heh heh, what a hoot!!

I AM NOT THE AUTHOR OF THE REMARKS ON THE AFJ WEBSITE AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THEY EXISTED. I do not mind or object to the remarks, Master Moore was more than welcome to enter them, and I openly accept them... BUT I HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THOSE REMARKS AND SO CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLAINTS AGAINST OR DISAGREEMENT WITH THEM.  

I do like what Moore entered there on the AFJ website... but I had no idea he entered that!! WOW.

(1) I didn't restructure or revive my school (Shinden yoshin ryu, Jujutsu.) But I do know exactly what Master Moore is talking about (it wasn't in regard to our SYR, it was in regard to other things.) 
(1-a) I've been practicing the same kata techniques since 1977, as per the description of those techniques posted on my angelfire home page here. I didn't need to re-enact or revive them BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I WAS TAUGHT AND HOW I WAS TAUGHT TO DO THEM.

(1-b) I do know exactly what re-enactment and revival Master Moore was talking about, but it isn't related to the SYR I've studied and practiced for some 30 years now!! I've been involved in American revived systems before, including various forms of Yoshin ryu BUT THIS WAS RELATED TO GENDAI DOJO JUJUTSU AS INDICATED IN THE REMARKS I POSTED ABOVE. What those instructors wanted was to create a listing and structure in Japanese language for their material content... I am a linguist and martial artist with some knowledge of the Japanese schools and practices so I helped them to do so. WE REVIVED THE JUJUTSU TAUGHT ORIGINALLY BY THEIR INSTRUCTOR BY TRANSLATING THE TECHNIQUE NAMES BACK TO JAPANESE when those instructors had lost the original Japanese names. This presented certain difficulties since kanji for the kata names can be ryuha specific... in the end I opted for common kanji usage and so that nomenclature was drawn straight from Japanese language dictionaries as a standard language term UNLESS THE KODOKAN TENDED TO USE SOME OTHER KANJI in which case that was deferred to instead. This is no doubt the "revival" on my part that Master Moore referred to.
​(2) Shinden Yoshin Ryu is just a crappy little gendai school, post-war doctrines of civilian and military service are the only thing that makes it at all interesting (otherwise it just isn't.) ANY PARTY CLAIMING THAT I STATED OR IMPLIED KORYU CONNECTION OR RELEVANCE IS OBVIOUSLY LYING DESPITE THE OBVIOUS PROLIFERATIONS OF REMARKS POSTED ALL OVER ALL THREE WEBSITES I POSTED TO THE INTERNET and in forums all over the net whenever addressing the subject of my jujutsu school. LOOK AT HOW THIS ITEM OF ENTRY BEGAN (item two, here): it says and I quote: "Shinden Yoshin Ryu is just a crappy little gendai school" GENDAI. Gendai. gendai. 

Gentlemen, ONLY YOU stated that I ever claimed koryu relationship of any kind. The website you sited is right here. On the same website linked to this page here, it reads clearly: "The SYR is a very small school and a lot of such small break away schools occured after the turn of the century, in response to the Meiji restoration. If the identities of persons as quoted in the body of the text are in any way incorrect, again I offer my apologies. This is unverified information, the result of searching for the roots of the *Shinden Yoshin Ryu* and _definetly should not be understood as a claim of any kind._ I am well aware of issues of authenticity and legitamacy as concerns the Koryu schools. I make no claims and do not defend the (reality of the) roots of the Shinden Yoshin Ryu. I am just a Martial artist, nothing more." YOU OUTRIGHT IGNORE SUCH OBVIOUS REMARKS in favor of making biased and unprecedented claims against me AND YOU IMPLY MISCONDUCT ON MY PART!!!!! The very website authored by me that you cited SPELLS IT OUT! 
For example, same page says also: "This Gendai (Modern era) style of Jujutsu is often classified as _*"Goshinjutsu"*_ (Modern Self Defense Jujutsu) it was rumored to have been founded in Osaka, Japan in 1911 ".

Do you see the word "gendai" there? 

And again on my angelfire website, it clearly states here that: "*INSERTED *THE FORM OF SHINTO YOSHIN RYU THAT OUR SCHOOL WAS SAID TO HAVE DERIVED FROM *IS NOT* ONE OF THE KORYU. Our school is not derived from any form of Koryu school, and *NO SUCH CLAIM HAS EVER BEEN MADE* that would be a misrepresentation. The other remarks which identified the *Shinden yoshin ryu* as possibly being a break away from Takagi ryu, likewise. The form of Takagi ryu mentioned *WAS NOT* a Koryu school. WHAT MANY PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR APPRECIATE is that these schools "Shinto yoshin ryu" AND "[+]Takagi [+] ryu" are both Koryu and Gendai, occurring very very commonly in and outside of Japan. Our school, Shinden yoshin ryu is Gendai goshin jujutsu, and was derived from a previous Gendai school itself. "

Gentlemen, you keep insisting that I am entering remarks and claims that are the exact opposite of what is quite obviously spelled out, in black and white ALL OVER THE NET wherver I've posted.

You are chasing your own misclaims and misremarks: I certainly NEVER said any such thing nor EVER implied it.





As for the websites of the gendai dojos teaching the schools listed above, in my former post: LOOK IT UP YOURSELVES. How do you think I found them?!? THERE REALLY IS THE FOLLOWING WEBSITES ON THE NET all you gotta do is a kanji search on Google (Japanese language only) and review the various links to find the dojo webpage. These three listing can be found: 

Takeuchi ryu, Jujutsu
Takenouchi ryu, Jujutsu
Takagi ryu, Jujutsu

Those three I know FOR A FACT  are gendai dojos posted to the net COMPLETE WITH PICTURES OF THE JAPANESE FOLKS practicing jujutsu in the dojo. In one photo, one can see the Japanese countryside clearly through the large front window of the dojo. 

Jujutsu schools like these are on record (books and magazines) since the 1950's till date! The American and British service men used to frequent these dojos between 1951-1985 because it was cheaper to train with these gendai dojos (kodokan was very expensive and the Koryu wouldn't usually take foreigners). The gendai dojos teach and always have taught "Yoshin ryu", "Shinto yoshin ryu" (in fact, this was the more common ryuha name given until 1976!!!!), "Tenshin ryu", "Tenshin shinyo ryu", "Shinkage ryu", "Takeuchi ryu" and so on.

Yessir, you look them up yourselves (I know for a fact that they are there, I was recently looking right at the pictures on those websites and translating the Japanese text myself.) I KNOW THAT THEY ARE POSTED TO THE NET.


And hell no I won't post a link for ya!! Look it up yourselves!


----------



## MarkBarlow

Please remember that when you post your website and discuss your system, you are inviting scrutiny and comment.  

Obviously, we'll all leave here with our beliefs and viewpoints relatively unaltered.  With that in mind, best of luck to you in your training, continued success with your dojo and long life to you.


----------



## jtweymo

Hi ya guys,



> MarkBarlow*said:*
> Please remember that when you post your website and discuss your system, you are inviting scrutiny and comment.
> 
> Obviously, we'll all leave here with our beliefs and viewpoints relatively unaltered. With that in mind, best of luck to you in your training, continued success with your dojo and long life to you.


 


Yeah, same back at ya, you have a good life too!!

I don't mind talking about things, and heck, sure, differences of opinion are certainly a fact of life.

We're all good.


----------

