# Tatum: TOW (outsiders perspective)



## Kenpo Yahoo (Jan 30, 2004)

Hey guys, 

I thought you might be interested to see what some kenpo outsiders thought of the kenpo groundwork.  Most notably the TOW about groundwork (found on http://www.ltatum.com )


TOW Discussion


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 30, 2004)

I'd encourage everybody to read the discussion too. All of it, weighing both what gets said and the way it gets said by people posting anonymously. Really something to be proud of, in terms of insight and courtesy.

I'd also recommend reading the more-intelligent discussion on KenpoNet.

Otherwise, I'll go with what I remarked on KenpoNet: as far as I know, those Tips are meant to provide keys to new approaches, guides for things to talk about, opportunites to rethink one's practice.

Looks like they work.


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## RCastillo (Jan 30, 2004)

I like all his tips!:asian:


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## Seig (Jan 30, 2004)

If nothing else is accomplished by Mr. Tatum's tips, they do open the door for conversation.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *If nothing else is accomplished by Mr. Tatum's tips, they do open the door for conversation. *


:asian:


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## Rick Wade (Feb 4, 2004)

Here is an example of how convincing Kenpo is.

Mr. Josh Lannon came to town (Honolulu) about two weeks a ago on business and I contacted him and asked for a couple of American Kenpo Classes over the weekend.  I invited one of my fellow black belts in Okinawa Kenpo who was looking for more complete martial arts.  In Okinawa Kenpo it is primarily Katas and analyzing the Bukai and allot of traditional Weapons.  Anyway my friend was totally amazed he had seen all of the Websites and read most of the American Kenpo books but like he said this is the most complete system that he had seen (granted it was only two classes) in such a short period of time.  Now my friend has trained in Aku Jitsu, Ta Kwon Do, Shotokan as well as Okinawa Kenpo.  He is really adept to handling and defending himself but he is convinced that American Kenpo is the way for him.  He had never seen anyone able to teach him how to generate that much power and speed in that short of a period.  The point of this LONG story is to truly convince someone of the dynamics of American Kenpo you have to get them in the studio.  There is no sense in arguing with them.  Let the art do the talking.  If they dont want to come or be shown Kenpo, you sure cant convince them by talking to them.  If they do come let them ask all of there what ifs that only makes us better martial artist.

Thanks


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 4, 2004)

I like Mr. Tatum's Tips of the Week.  I think they are very helpful and very well done.  I do think his mount technique TOW was not well prepared.   

There was a lot of discussion about this on the KenpoNet and on several other forums.  The presentation of the attack and technique on the TOW did some damage to Kenpo's reputation and to Mr. Tatum's reputation in the rest of the Martial Arts community.

The KenpoNet threads started out well but quickly degenerated into back-and forth personal attacks between a few of your favorite ex-Kenpo grapplers and a few of our favorite Kenpo purists.  

There was also discussion about it here on MartialTalk in the Kenpo General thread "Kenpo on the Groud - part 2" http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12652

There was BJJ/MMA perspective on both Sherdog and on the Underground.  This is pretty insightful--and very harsh.  
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141808
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=SetMasterFrame&FID=11&PID=90

There was also some good perspective (including an ex LTKKA guy), very funny hairdo criticism, and more bashing on Bullshido.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8905


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 4, 2004)

> Rick Wade said...
> The point of this LONG story is to truly convince someone of the dynamics of American Kenpo you have to get them in the studio. There is no sense in arguing with them. Let the art do the talking. If they dont want to come or be shown Kenpo, you sure cant convince them by talking to them. If they do come let them ask all of there what ifs that only makes us better martial artist.



The same is true for grappling arts such as BJJ, Judo, and MMA.  Naysayers to Kenpo need to experience it.  Naysayers to MMA, BJJ, etc. need to experience it as well.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _



thanks for the links. They are informative. Good links to visit. You posted these links way too late. It took me over 3 hours to read them (over 100 posts TOTALLY) all BUT it is OK.

show us the good stuff and keep up the good work.

if i am a student of Mr. Larry Tatum, i honestly don't know what to say or do after seeing all of these posts

perhaps, some ADVANCE ground techniques from Mr. Tatum SOON?????


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## pete (Feb 4, 2004)

the BJ-Jokers are a heck of a lot funnier than the Kenposters. 

Its like some strange version of the Dean Martin Celebrity Roasts... where's Nipsey Russell when you need him.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 4, 2004)

Because I'm stubborn, I'm going to respond to OFK's---let's just say, "assertion"-- that the Tip, "did some damage," to anybody's reputation.

But I'm not going to get back into the previous discussions--except to note, once again, that it's just a Tip. It's not meant to be the be-all and end-all. And I'm not going to get into the issue of good manners and a pinch of respect, because that does no good with anybody who needs to be told these things.

Instead, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. Let's take a peek at the cliches, blind spots, fetishes and unrealism of the folks forums like Bullshido. com, and the grappling types.

1. "We are more realistic than you are." Hm. Interesting, since it's repeatedly been pointed out that grappling somebody "on the street," may very well be completely unrealistic. (The obvious issue is the presence of others, but there are other issues.) What's curious here is the assumption that the woods are full of grapplers. Personally, I've spent a lot of time avoiding fighting...but of all the fights I've gotten somewhat entangled in or seen, I've seen ONE guy on the ghround. He had seven people surrounding him, kicking. We all choose parameters for what's realistic; realize that, adjust your parameters accordingly, and don't be so quick to insult everybody else's.  One humongous unrealism: that there are bad people around every corner, that crime is everywhere, that we train for the apocalypse. This is rightist ideology, not realism. Don't worry about the apocalypse--you won't survive it, unless you run the hell away. What's more realistic--avoiding fighting, or charging in?

2. "Kenpo is just fashionable." Oh. Would this be because of the endless pay-per-view and cable events built around kenpo? The endless puffery in the likes of, "Black Belt?" Wait a minnit...that's not kenpo. it's Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Huh. Yes. Mr. Parker was more than a little interested in fame and fortune. I noticed, so did most others. He's gone. Anybody out there think that the Gracies have no interest in fame and fortune? They're living and working in LA,  guys. Anybody think that BJJ is always taught well? By really qualified people, who are completely Egoless and beyond the Dollar?

3. "Kenpo people are all tied up with their own egos." Sure, absolutely. We all got 'em. However, would you really say that there's worse strutting in kenpo than anywhere else in the martial arts? Try Wing Chun. Take a look at the next UFC you see. No male fantasy there, mirabile dictu. Oh, and while we're on the subject of ego, take a quick inventory of the language people use when they choose an alias. No ego there, no 11-year-old-with-a-new-toy jet mentality. 

4. "Kenpo people never listen to anybody else, because they're blind." Sure. And constant remarks about other people's personalities, stupidity, gutlessness, charlatanism--and the big one, the constant suggestions that the other's guy's a fag (ugly but accurate language)--anti-American close-mindedness represent the very best in intellectual discussion.

5. "Kenpo people don't understand true Combat." This one's truly hilarious, what with the suggestion that the poster is a tough, ex-SOG operative whose real name is like, "Dirk," and just got back form the jungles of whatever and stopped off for a sec en route to teaching the SEALS. One respects soldiers, cops, good bouncers, and other people who have seen the proverbial elephant. There are very few of these anonymous, belittling writers who are or have been soldiers, bouncers or cops. Why do I say this? Because in my limited experience with such folks, they have much better manners. Why? Because they don't seem to need to insult you to feel like a Real Man. They also prob'ly have better things to do than to post on forums.

6. "Kenpo people don't know anything about {insert favorite here}." Sure. And all others know everything. There will always be holes in any martial arts training, unless you're watching a movie. Why else is this claim made? because the writers don't know the system they're talking about. If you go back through the posts, again and again you'll see the remark that, "we don't do that," or, "we got rid of that," or, "I haven't learned that, but it's no good."

I'll write more on this, because I'm that sort, but for now--guys, it's just a martial art. We are not (with very rare exceptions) seasoned warriors, or professional fighters, or martial arts geniuses. Relax a little on the proselytizing. At least consider the other guy's viewpoint. Remember that disagreement is not evil. Develop a few basic manners. Take a look in the mirror occasionally. Accept that it's just writing on a forum.

Oh, and for the inevitable, "You never do any of these things, you hypocrite," poster, boy, are you ever wrong. Do I screw up from time to time? Sure. How 'bout yourself? 

But I also don't go chasing around to, say, grappling sites and start insulting everybody I can, or telling people I've never met that they're ignorant, or dumping on people's instructors. If you think this is a good idea, well, all's I can say is that you've missed out on some of the most important lessons that martial arts teach. But then, you probably threw out all that traditional stuff like courtesy and hard, patient work anyway.


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## Michael Billings (Feb 4, 2004)

Well said Robert.

-Michael


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 4, 2004)

Robert:  

you said you were responding to me...but there seems to be some myths you are attacking that I am not sure is aimed directly at me.  

Anyway, I've got an hour or so before my next meeting, my boss is out today, so I'll give it a whirl...



> ...the Tip, "did some damage," to anybody's reputation.





> it's just a Tip. It's not meant to be the be-all and end-all


I agree here.  It is just a tip.  Not a be-all and end-all.  From a Kenpo-centric experience, it is just a tip from a very knowledgeable Kenpo instructor who is doing lots of good things with weekly tips on Kenpo principles and techniques.  Most of the responses on the other forums were from people with a different experience.  From the MMA/BJJ centric viewpoint, there are lots of video tips out there.  There are websites devoted to video tips (www.subfighter.com).  There is an industry of instructional videos because there are well over a thousand possible techniques in grappling/mma (not just 250 or 600).  Every BJJ/MMA student has seen video examples of mount escapes.  When they compare that particular TOW to their experience...well, you've read the reactions...



> 1. "We are more realistic than you are." ..."What's more realistic--avoiding fighting, or charging in?"


Robert, I think you are trying to make several points here...
If I may try and summarize and respond to each.

A)  Grapplers are not the norm in street fighting.  I agree with this.  Very few of the fights I've seen involve trained grapplers.  I do recall one fight at my high school in 1977 or 78 where a wrestling jock pinned a Golden Gloves champion on the ground and the boxer couldn't get up.  There have been a few other fights I've seen go to the ground, but none involved trained grapplers since that one.  But, grappling is now fashionable and more people are training.  In the 1970's, it was uncommon to get kicked in a streetfight.  Now it is common.  It is not common to face a grappler now, but 10 years from now I bet it will be a lot more common.

B)  Grappling on the ground is bad in street fighting.  I agree here also.  But, that guy on the ground you saw getting kicked...how did he get there?  Did someone do a takedown on him?  Did he know how to get up?  Could it be that the guy on the ground didn't know how to grapple and the guy that put him there did?  Now he can't get up because he's pinned and the grappler's friends are stomping on him.  Goes both ways here.  Don't want to fight alone on the ground against multiple standing attackers.  Also, if I did get into a fight, I would prefer to knock somebody down and have my friends stomp on him for me.

C)  Bad guys are NOT everywhere.  I agree here also.  How did this even enter the argument?  Martial Arts study is somewhat Hobbesian:  we do try and prepare for the worst.  I am not a Hobbesian.  If I was, I would study Glock Fu instead of arts like Kenpo and Jiu Jitsu where we train in a friendly and cooperative environment.

D)  It is better to avoid fighting than to fight.  I agree here also.  Like you, I haven't been in a fight in a long time...only 2 since I got out of high school in 1979.  But, as I said above, we train for the worst.  That is the fun and challenge of Martial Arts study.  



> 2.  "Kenpo is just fashionable."


Here too, I think you are making multiple points

A)  BJJ instructors have egos, seek fame & fortune.  I couldn't agree more.  But, BJJ instructors seem willing to step onto the mat, into the ring, into the cage, or on the street in order to back up their claims.  Many BJJ instructors compete in Vale Tudo, MMA, challenge matches, etc. where they test their skill against boxers, kick-boxers, karate people, wrestlers, Judokas, brawlers, etc.  A few Kenpoists do this as well.  I do sense however that you disapprove of this practice and prefer an art and training environment where the art's and the instructor's effectiveness is never challenged.

B)  Not all BJJ instructors are good.  I agree here also.  BJJ tournaments, Submission Grappling tournaments, and MMA events go a long way toward differentiating good instructors from bad.  Too bad Kenpo and Karate belt promotions and tournaments are not structured in a way that enables Kenpoists to fairly test their skills. 



> 3. "Kenpo people are all tied up with their own egos."


I believe your point is that everyone has egos and that other arts have lots of puffy heads as well.  No argument here.  I am in complete agreement.   Kenpo people generally have much better control of their egos and temper than many other martial artists.  And a lot better control than the typical BJJ/MMA person.



> 4. "Kenpo people never listen to anybody else, because they're blind."


I thinkyour point here was that the MMA internet forums are filled with a bunch of arrogant young homophobes.  I think there is much truth in that.



> 5. "Kenpo people don't understand true Combat."


I think your point is that many of the arrogant young homophobes on the MMA forums are rude.  I agree.



> 6. "Kenpo people don't know anything about {insert favorite here}."


The point the BJJ/MMA people are rudely trying to make is that they don't do techniques simply to demonstrate a principle and that they discard techniques that nobody can make work or where the attack is unrealistic.  And that is the heart of the criticism of the Mount TOW.



> We are not (with very rare exceptions) seasoned warriors, or professional fighters, or martial arts geniuses. Relax a little on the proselytizing. At least consider the other guy's viewpoint. Remember that disagreement is not evil. Develop a few basic manners. Take a look in the mirror occasionally. Accept that it's just writing on a forum.


Good advice.  



> Oh, and for the inevitable, "You never do any of these things, you hypocrite," poster, boy, are you ever wrong. Do I screw up from time to time? Sure. How 'bout yourself?


Yeah, I screw up all the time.  My boss thinks I don't do anything at work, my wife thinks I spend too much time on Martial Arts, I am a mediocre Kenpoist, and I am a really lousy grappler.



> But I also don't go chasing around to, say, grappling sites and start insulting everybody I can, or telling people I've never met that they're ignorant, or dumping on people's instructors. If you think this is a good idea, well, all's I can say is that you've missed out on some of the most important lessons that martial arts teach. But then, you probably threw out all that traditional stuff like courtesy and hard, patient work anyway.


Wow, I hope you don't hate me that much!  I thought most of my discussion on the TOW was pretty polite.  I even tried to be supportive of the TOW on a couple of Grappling forums.  Certainly, you don't put me in the same category as the young arrogant homophobes you disdain so much on the grappling forums.  After all, I am not a young arrogant homophobe--I'm an old one!


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## Les (Feb 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rick Wade _
> *Here is an example of how convincing Kenpo is.
> 
> Mr. Josh Lannon came to town (Honolulu) about two weeks a ago on business and I contacted him and asked for a couple of American Kenpo Classes over the weekend. Thanks *



Mr Lannon is an excellent Kenpo practitioner. I have seen first hand the skill, energy and enthusiasm he puts into his training.

If he ever comes to the UK on business we're going to keep him here.   

When you next see him please tell him Les Grihault said "Hello".

Les


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 5, 2004)

Here's another BJJ/grappling/MMA shibboleth: unlike you guys, WE are constantly challenged. 

There are several fallacies here, the first of which is that nobody but (fill in blank here} ever gets hit, or attacked "for real," in any fashion. How do we know? because reality is only what we say it is. 

The second fallacy has to do with challenge--there're challenges and then there're challenges, and the kinds that grapplers seem to like are not the only kinds there are. Nor are they the only challenges that matter in martial arts.

A third fallacy--we train hard all the time, and you do not. Uh...nope. Not only do people at good kenpo schools tend to leave the mat all sweaty and wobble-legged, but dollars to doughnuts lots of the folks claiming all this realistic and tough training are actually standing around a lot too. It's very self-flattering to claim that one is training harder than anybody else, but guess what? Not true. And if the stories I've heard and read are true,  none of us are training as hard as Parker, and Norris, and LeBell, trained. Live with it, ladies and gentlemen...it's just a martial art, nothing more.

A fourth fallacy: turns "challenge," into what the young understand and, "the old," have forgotten. What I noticed, among so many anonymous posts, was all the youthful faces. And yet, so much more experience and knowledge? 

A last fallacy: the association of "reality," with training practices that, over the long haul, are going to leave a lot of crippled martial artists behind. A friend of mine made a nice point this evening: in pro football, we can see the long-term damage, the deaths from steroids and supplements and god knows what. Events like the UFC are going to leave the majority of their participants permanently damaged over the long haul--the sport just hasn't been around long enough yet to make that clear. 

Incidentally, I mostly avoided personal pronouns for a reason in these posts. Why? Because here's a fallacy after the last fallacy: the fallacy that disagreement equals, "hate me that much." I simply criticize--challenge, if you will--sloppy prose. Among other things, I tend to get all critic-y about fundamental contradictions in one's arguments.


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## MJS (Feb 5, 2004)

As I've said for probably a million times already....We all train for different reasons.  Rob and OFK- you both bring up many good points!  While some people want to learn to defend themselves and some people want to get the trad. or spiritual etc. aspect of it, that is fine.  Sure, there are not bad guys standing on every street corner, but I would think, and please correct me if I'm wrong here,  that people would want to be able to defend themselves.  There is no possible way that any of us can possibly prepare for everything.  But, having just a little bit of experience is better than nothing.  What do I mean by this??  You dont need to take 20yrs and learn how to grapple, but I would think that having just a little exp. in knowing how to get back to your feet would be a help.  Sure the chance of a mult. attacker situation is always there, but not in every case.  

Stepping into the "cage" is not for everyone.  And yes, there is a difference between that and an actual fight where there are no rules or judges to save you.

Reality--- This IMO, is also something that is often misunderstood.  Training a knife or gun defense with a REAL weapon???  Well, if you want to take that chance that maybe you're gonna die, but why not use a water gun or a marker?  IMO, that is alot safer, but you get more of a, and forgive me for saying it Robert, realistic feeling.  With a wooden knife, there is no way to tell if that disarm you did actually worked.  With a marker, you'll see the "cuts" and with the water gun you'll see the "shots"  

Just a few thoughts. I hope that I didnt ruffle too many feathers with this.

Mike


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