# Can You Fight with Tai Chi?



## Yoshiyahu

This Thread is about Tai Chi and its ability to actually be used in a combat situtation. If there ever arose a time where you had to fight and defend yourself. Could you do using Tai Chi?

Do Tai Chi practioners only do push hands are do you also spar?


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## jarrod

i have trained only a little tai chi but here is my opinion:  training only in tai chi, it would take a very long time to become a proficient fighter, but it could be done.  supplementing another martial art with tai chi can be very beneficial in terms of learning good balance, relaxation, inner calm, root, & general proper movement.  

it's also worth noting that the majority of tai chi instructors in the US don't advertise their art as a combat/self-defense style, but rather tout the health & meditative benefits.  you would have to train with a tai chi instructor who understands fighting to get the martial aspect out of training.  

my $.02,

jf


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## D Dempsey

It is really going to depend a lot on the instructor.  Stylistically Taiji has a pretty small number of techniques and has a heavy emphasis on stand up grappling so it really should not take a long time to pick up the basics depending on instruction.  If you find a school that competes regularly in Shuai Jiao and / or Sanda you would probably be able to pick up the basics pretty quickly due to constant feed back.
I trained at a school for a while where the some of the Taiji students fought in MMA and Muay Thai matches, but they also cross trained in BJJ and trained with a lot of resistance.


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## stickarts

The majority of practitioners I have seen mostly practice for health benefits, however, I have worked with instructors that know the martial applications, work the push hands along with the form, and I believe could use what they have learned.


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## MA-Caver

Perhaps this might answer your question. Find a tai chi practitioner and video tape them going through their session. Then speed up the video tape and insert an attacker... I think you'll find it can be effective where needed. 
To me and it's *way over* simplifying the art, Tai Chi is just a slowed down version of a Martial Art. 

It's great though... teaches control and discipline and inner peace/balance.


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## Phoenix44

Yes, absolutely.

I've trained for 3+ years with Pete at Silk Wind Studio on Long Island. He teaches the martial applications, and yes, it is most definitely a fighting art. 

I personally would not fight exclusively with tai chi, because #1, I'm not that good at it yet, and #2, I've trained in other arts for a longer period of time, so other things would come more "naturally." However, I always try to apply tai chi principles, because they're so effective and universally applicable.

I have no doubt that Pete could fight using tai chi exclusively.


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## grydth

I'd agree with much that has been said here. Tai Chi originated as a fighting art and still may be used as such.

Not all instructors know or teach the martial applications (Tai Chi Chih has actually deleted any martial content and is openly proud of that). 

Most instructors I know of will not begin with applications; they will wait until the student has some grasp of the basics. 

As to effectiveness, I was for a long while the demo attacker... there were days I went home with more parts hurting than not.

In the USA, many like myself have studied other arts.... so I cannot say about using Tai Chi _exclusively_ to fight.


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## arnisador

In principle...yes. In practice...you'd be hard-pressed to find a school that trained solely Tai Chi and made it practical. It's usually taught for health or as an adjunct to another kung fu system.


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## Xue Sheng

Can You Fight with Tai Chi? 

Yes


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## Xue Sheng

arnisador said:


> In principle...yes. In practice...you'd be hard-pressed to find a school that trained solely Tai Chi and made it practical. It's usually taught for health or as an adjunct to another kung fu system.


 
Absolutely true, but there are a few still in existence.

But as one of the Chen family said. He considers Taijiquan as a martial art dead. Not that there are not people left that know the martial arts of it but that they are so few compared to those that don't he considers it dead. This Chen family member is however rather accomplished martial artists and his students appear to be as well.

Find a true Zhaobao school ad you likely have fighters. Many of the real Chen schools in existence still teach or attempt to teach the martial arts, however sadly Chen may also be changing as well. But I would say the majority of Yang schools do not.

Ask the majority of Yang stylist to tell you about the 13 postures, what they are and how to use them and you will also see that very few know anything about them.

Note: If you understand the 13 postures that are all you need to fight.


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## seasoned

Xue Sheng said:


> Can You Fight with Tai Chi?
> 
> Yes


 
I will second that, unequivocally. It was a combat art long before it went under cover.


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## oxy

Xue Sheng said:


> Can You Fight with Tai Chi?
> 
> Yes



Apparently, Chan Yik Yan was asked this question about LHBF when he was practicing in the park. His answer, I think, also applies to Taiji:

"You can't fight with it"

(Hint: there's a subtlety to that answer)


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## Xue Sheng

oxy said:


> Apparently, Chan Yik Yan was asked this question about LHBF when he was practicing in the park. His answer, I think, also applies to Taiji:
> 
> "You can't fight with it"
> 
> (Hint: there's a subtlety to that answer)


 
And Tung Ying Chieh said it was for health


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## ljdevo

Tai Chi Chaun is supposidly one of the most effective martial arts around, but takes around 10yrs of practice before you can finally master its techniques poperly. The reason for the slowness is so that your technique can be scritinised fully, so that when you perform a strike/block it's motion is semless. It is also trainined slowley as to gain maximum muscle control (the whole yin & yang process), to have one you must have the other. So in order to be extremely fast, explosive and powerful, you must be able yo be slow, controlled and relaxed, therefore creating complete balance.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

ljdevo said:


> ... The reason for the slowness is so that your technique can be scritinised fully, so that when you perform a strike/block it's motion is semless...


 
What does this mean?  What is scritinised?


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## JadecloudAlchemist

You can use Jackie Chan kungfu movies to fight with IF you can figure out how to apply it.

I don't know if it can take a long time to be able to apply it.

What I mean by that is in Chen Laojia Yilu the opening form I was told it a response to a wrist grab.

I consider that to be a very basic application and MAY be taught early in the class IF the teacher is big on martial application.

It can be difficult to find someone who knows and teaches the martial applications I had one person tell me it was to deadly.:lol:


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## Xue Sheng

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You can use Jackie Chan kungfu movies to fight with IF you can figure out how to apply it.
> 
> I don't know if it can take a long time to be able to apply it.
> 
> What I mean by that is in Chen Laojia Yilu the opening form I was told it a response to a wrist grab.
> 
> I consider that to be a very basic application and MAY be taught early in the class IF the teacher is big on martial application.


 
There are several applications to the first few forms of Chen Laojia Yilu all fairly nasty. And the opening was demonstrated once "on" me and it is a nice little bit of Qinna

Chen is a bit different from Yang style and does have more obvious applications. IMO it is much easier to teach the MA of Chen as it is meant to be than Yang could be why there are so few Yang MA schools now that I think about it. Or at least you are able to get into the MA quicker with Chen then Yang IMO. 



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> It can be difficult to find someone who knows and teaches the martial applications I had one person tell me it was to deadly.:lol:


 
And I STILL stand by my statement :mst: 

Actually I have heard that same excuse myself about everything from no touch Qi knock downs to Long Fist.


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## LuckyKBoxer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

Apparantly there are some fighting applications.......


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## Yoshiyahu

All Wounderful post. My Sifu in Tai Chi says its very possible to fight with Tai Chi. In Fact he says he can. But he also has an understanding of other arts too. Like Five animals, Wing Chun, Tae Kwon Do and some others he has black belts in an above. But outside of him and his Sihing I haven't really seen people using their Tai Chi to fight with. My Sihing says its useless to fight with but he says it has great help benefits. But either way I still practice under the guidance of Sifu because he has taught me alot in Wing Chun and by learning Tai Chi I also increase my skill in Wing Chun.


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## Phoenix44

I'd recommend you all pick up a DVD of the 1993 movie "Tai Chi Master" with Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh.


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## Xue Sheng

Phoenix44 said:


> I'd recommend you all pick up a DVD of the 1993 movie "Tai Chi Master" with Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh.


 
Now you did it

Did you just say Michelle Yeoh. You sure did You just HAD to throw Michelle Yeoh into it didnt you..... Thanks


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## Nebuchadnezzar

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Apparantly there are some fighting applications.......


 
When will this video DIE!!!!!????


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## Nebuchadnezzar

Xue Sheng said:


> Now you did it
> 
> Did you just say Michelle Yeoh. You sure did You just HAD to throw Michelle Yeoh into it didnt you..... Thanks


 
Personally, I like Lucy Liu. :mst:


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## LuckyKBoxer

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Personally, I like Lucy Liu. :mst:


 
Agreed
Everytime I see her, I get a mental Roar sound in my head..../sigh


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## Phoenix44

Lucy Liu???

Excuse me, but Michelle Yeoh is a serious martial artist and stuntwoman, who happens to be a babe.  

Lucy Liu is a babe who happens to train in martial arts...

...which of course doesn't really affect the topic that this thread has obviously degenerated to, but there is a distinction.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

Phoenix44 said:


> Lucy Liu???
> 
> Excuse me, but Michelle Yeoh is a serious martial artist and stuntwoman, who happens to be a babe.
> 
> Lucy Liu is a babe who happens to train in martial arts...
> 
> ...which of course doesn't really affect the topic that this thread has obviously degenerated to, but there is a distinction.


 
Oh please!  Michelle has had NO formal marital arts training.  She may be cute, but she's a dancer and a stuntwoman.

:angel: Lucy :angel: trains right here in NYC!  Oh, and yes, she is a such a Super Babe!


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## Xue Sheng

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Oh please! Michelle has had NO formal marital arts training. She may be cute, but she's a dancer and a stuntwoman.
> 
> :angel: Lucy :angel: trains right here in NYC! Oh, and yes, she is a such a Super Babe!


 

True but I don't care I will always pick Michelle Yeoh over Lucy Liu any day of the week, 

Michelle Yeoh yes....Lucy Liu no

Michelle Yeoh... NOT Lucy Liu

  

Now back to your regularly scheduled post that has nothing to do with Michelle Yeoh

Now you see what start when you mention..... You know who... who was also Miss Malaysia


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## Xue Sheng

And in an effort to get this thread back on track, since I played a REAL big part in getting it off track

To use Yang Taijiquan as a martial arts for fighting as Yang style is meant to be used would require an understanding of the 13 postures as well as push hands training (stationary single hand, stationary double hand, 3 step, four corner, and free style). And of course form training as well as Qigong training. It is a long process and you need to be patience to get there. 

Chen style I have much less training in but I do feel (aka IMO), although it would take time to use it as a martial art Ias Chen is meant to be used I do feel it would not take as long as Yang style.

Edit - I need to add this

Basically I pity the fool that tries to test any of the Chen family or Tung/Dong family or a few other long time taiji sifus out there 

Actually a person did attempt to test a member of the Chen family at his own seminar; basically the person attacked him without warning. And although the Chan family member felt very badly about the outcome the Chen's response put the attacker into cardiac arrest and needed to be taken to the hospital by Ambulance&#8230;. The attacker did survive.

Do the majority of Taijiquan people today have this level of skill? No
Do the majority of Taijiquan people training today know about Taijiquan martial arts? No
Do the majority of people training Taijiquan today even know it is a martial art? Likely no


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## Dean

Yoshiyahu said:


> This Thread is about Tai Chi and its ability to actually be used in a combat situtation. If there ever arose a time where you had to fight and defend yourself. Could you do using Tai Chi?
> 
> Do Tai Chi practioners only do push hands are do you also spar?


Hi Yoshiyahu,

Yes, Tai Chi Chuan was initially created to be a Martial Art.  It also was discovered to be beneficial to the health.  Nowadays, is it often performed as a health exercise for various reasons.   

Initially, depending on the teacher, push hands are practiced.  As a student progresses moving push hands may be introduced.  Sparring as you know it, IMO, is not practiced.  However, with continued training and learning application one can gain skills for means of self-defense.


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## Rich Parsons

arnisador said:


> In principle...yes. In practice...you'd be hard-pressed to find a school that trained solely Tai Chi and made it practical. It's usually taught for health or as an adjunct to another kung fu system.


 

I agree. I was at work one evening and another woman was watching a Tai Chi Video. She aksed me to take a look as she knew I did martial arts. I said that it was martial arts as well. She said, no it was health only. I then went through and explained the throw and brakes and strikes to her. She was upset that I had taken the beauty and changed it to violence. 

I agree that form my perspective I coudl see how it would be possible to fight with Tai Chi. But if that is all you ever did and at that speed it would be difficult to really learn self defense, in my opinion.


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## Xue Sheng

Rich Parsons said:


> I agree. I was at work one evening and another woman was watching a Tai Chi Video. She aksed me to take a look as she knew I did martial arts. I said that it was martial arts as well. She said, no it was health only. I then went through and explained the throw and brakes and strikes to her. She was upset that I had taken the beauty and changed it to violence.


 
This is not surprising, I had a student walk out of the middle of class once after yelling "THIS IS NOT KARATE" just because another student asked me if it was a marital art and I said yes.



Rich Parsons said:


> I agree that form my perspective I coudl see how it would be possible to fight with Tai Chi. But if that is all you ever did and at that speed it would be difficult to really learn self defense, in my opinion.


 
Apps are not trained slowly, you need to train a lot of push hands if you want to go for the MA of it and there are reasons for the slowness of the form. Besides there are fast forms too.


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## Rich Parsons

Xue Sheng said:


> This is not surprising, I had a student walk out of the middle of class once after yelling "THIS IS NOT KARATE" just because another student asked me if it was a marital art and I said yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Apps are not trained slowly, you need to train a lot of push hands if you want to go for the MA of it and there are reasons for the slowness of the form. Besides there are fast forms too.


 
Xue,

I have no doubt that slow training is benficial. I train slow and at other speeds as well to work on timing. It also allows one to work on balance and flow of techniques. 

I did not mean to imply that slow was bad, only that those that I have talked to who trained, were not into the self defense portion.


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## Ninebird8

Xue, like your Freudian spelling there, that tai chi is a marital art, rather than a martial art....LOL!! Hope that same woman does not see that! Did this same woman get real mad when or if she was told the real meaning of the words tai chi quan? That must also have gone over well. In any event, I will say emphatically, not only is it a beautiful martial art that I have felt many times from Sifu Bolt and Sigung Yang, but it has acted as the bridge and filling in the gaps for my kung fu fighting as well! It helped convert me from a technician to understanding the naturalness and flow of the movement, as well as the continuous connectivity from one movement to the next. Not to mention, being a wee bit hyper, making me slow down a little bit and seeing the application, beauty, and wonder of moving slow but hitting fast....LOL!! And, also learned the beauty from tai chi of "sooner" rather than faster or quicker!


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## Xue Sheng

Rich Parsons said:


> Xue,
> 
> I have no doubt that slow training is benficial. I train slow and at other speeds as well to work on timing. It also allows one to work on balance and flow of techniques.
> 
> I did not mean to imply that slow was bad, only that those that I have talked to who trained, were not into the self defense portion.


 
I did not think you did, I just wanted to explain a bit of what Taiji is or can be. But then this goes to another post out there onMT as to why do I feel the need to do this :lol: 

I most cases I actually enjoy the advantage of people thinking it is slow and useless :EG:


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## Ninebird8

Amen Brother Xue, they never see us coming or striking, and yet we are slow?????? Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes!!


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## mograph

There are a lot of people out there who are afraid of even a whiff of martial intent regarding tai chi. They may even have issues with competition in sporting events.

No doubt most among you have had to find creative ways to keep those students on board by describing the necessary interplay between health, relaxation, structure and martial intent. What works for me (currently) is this: when performing a move, I try to imagine a _duifang_ or counterpart who receives the move or martial intent. This counterpart is not acting as the recipient of violence, hatred or injury, but actually _completes_ the move or posture. For example, if I imagine the counterpart's arm in my hands, I place them correctly. And so on. 

Now, to get over the idea of aggressive action, the student could imagine a friendly "oh, good hit old chap!" kind of contest, where both players have respect for each other, then retire to the bar afterwards and have a great old time. Or whatever.

Regarding the "this is not Karate" shouter, in hindsight, it would have been interesting to ask him/her in a calm manner, "why are you so angry?" 
But what would have been the point ...? Hm.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Regarding the "this is not Karate" shouter, in hindsight, it would have been interesting to ask him/her in a calm manner, "why are you so angry?"
> But what would have been the point ...? Hm.


 
Well, I would have, had I had the chance it happened rather fast, shout about not being Karate immediately followed by storming out of class. Sad part about it was she was actually pretty good at doing the form.


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## Yoshiyahu

So you would say to be a Tai Chi Fighter one should:


1.Practice Forms Extremely Slow and also Fast?
2.Practice the different Variations of Push Hands?
3.Practice Chi Kung?

An then with in Six years you would be able to Fight with Tai Chi?





Xue Sheng said:


> And in an effort to get this thread back on track, since I played a REAL big part in getting it off track
> 
> To use Yang Taijiquan as a martial arts for fighting as Yang style is meant to be used would require an understanding of the 13 postures as well as push hands training (stationary single hand, stationary double hand, 3 step, four corner, and free style). And of course form training as well as Qigong training. It is a long process and you need to be patience to get there.
> 
> Chen style I have much less training in but I do feel (aka IMO), although it would take time to use it as a martial art Ias Chen is meant to be used I do feel it would not take as long as Yang style.
> 
> Edit - I need to add this
> 
> Basically I pity the fool that tries to test any of the Chen family or Tung/Dong family or a few other long time taiji sifus out there
> 
> Actually a person did attempt to test a member of the Chen family at his own seminar; basically the person attacked him without warning. And although the Chan family member felt very badly about the outcome the Chen's response put the attacker into cardiac arrest and needed to be taken to the hospital by Ambulance. The attacker did survive.
> 
> Do the majority of Taijiquan people today have this level of skill? No
> Do the majority of Taijiquan people training today know about Taijiquan martial arts? No
> Do the majority of people training Taijiquan today even know it is a martial art? Likely no


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## Xue Sheng

Yoshiyahu said:


> So you would say to be a Tai Chi Fighter one should:
> 
> 
> 1.Practice Forms Extremely Slow and also Fast?
> 2.Practice the different Variations of Push Hands?
> 3.Practice Chi Kung?


 
One needs to understand the form, push hands and the 13 postures as well as Yang Chengfu's Ten Essentials if your talking Yang. Oher styles may vary



> An then with in Six years you would be able to Fight with Tai Chi?


 
Nope, I would not say that. It depends on how much you train how much you train if you see your sifu everyday, train everyday and train push hands everyday, maybe if you see your sifu once a week train a couple times a week and do push hands every now and then no

There are no shortcuts ad taiji takes a long time.


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## Dean

Xue Sheng said:


> One needs to understand the form, push hands and the 13 postures as well as Yang Chengfu's Ten Essentials if your talking Yang. Oher styles may vary
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I would not say that. It depends on how much you train how much you train if you see your sifu everyday, train everyday and train push hands everyday, maybe if you see your sifu once a week train a couple times a week and do push hands every now and then no
> 
> There are no shortcuts ad taiji takes a long time.


Hi Xue Sheng or Whatever your real name is, 

I  personally don't think Yang Chengfu's examples are one's to live bye.  He was obese and out of shape.  In my opinion, much of what occurred earlier training wise was lost.  Just my thoughts.


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## Anthony Walmsley

"This Thread is about Tai Chi and its ability to actually be used in a combat situation. If there ever arose a time where you had to fight and defend yourself. Could you do using Tai Chi?" 

Returning to the original question - quoted above - what exactly is meant by a 'combat situation'?

"Do Tai Chi practioners only do push hands are do you also spar?"

And again, what is intended by the term 'spar'?

www.wau.it/haha


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## Xue Sheng

Dean said:


> Hi Xue Sheng or Whatever your real name is,
> 
> I personally don't think Yang Chengfu's examples are one's to live bye. He was obese and out of shape. In my opinion, much of what occurred earlier training wise was lost. Just my thoughts.


 
If you are talking Yang style he is the root for most of todays forms. If you look at him in his later years hes that is true, But you need to look beyond that to his top students, Fu Zhongwen, Tung Ying Chieh, Yang Shou Zhong, Tian Zhaolin, etc. And see what they did based on his teaching. My lineage goes to Tung Ying Chieh but if you wish to judge all Yang style (which tends towards the 10 essences) by Yang Chengfu in his later years then so be it. No one is saying live like Yang Chengfu but his ten essentials are pretty much the guidelines or the basis for most Traditional Yang Taiji today. 

But this is off post, of you wish to discuss the obesity of Yang Chengfu it may be best to do that in another thread



Anthony Walmsley said:


> "This Thread is about Tai Chi and its ability to actually be used in a combat situation. If there ever arose a time where you had to fight and defend yourself. Could you do using Tai Chi?"
> 
> Returning to the original question - quoted above - what exactly is meant by a 'combat situation'?
> 
> "Do Tai Chi practioners only do push hands are do you also spar?"
> 
> And again, what is intended by the term 'spar'?
> 
> www.wau.it/haha


 
Most Taiji practitioners today can't defend themselves with Taiji regardless of style. Most do not take push hands, if they do push hands at all, beyond basic drills and basic push hands is not sparing. It is far from sparing actually. You need to get to free style push hands to come close to sparing but you need to understand the basics of the forms and the principles of Taiji before you get to that.

So most do form, fewer do push hands and very few spar regardless of style.

But, IMO, it is easier to get some level of SD in Chen style than Yang but that does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that Chen is any easier to master than Yang because it isn't.


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## Dean

Xue, sorry about the name thing.  I got caught up in the moment last night.


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## Xue Sheng

Dean said:


> Xue, sorry about the name thing. I got caught up in the moment last night.


 
No problem you gave me an excuse to pull some useless info out of brain and post it

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
---Shakespeare

Check your Reps


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## Ninebird8

With respect, I only know that my tai chi sifu, Jeff Bolt, and my tai chi Sigung, Dr. Yang, can quite effectively fight with tai chi employing the push hands, the fa jing, the plucking/grabbing of Yang style, etc. I have also found, using the martial aspects of tai chi have aided substantially in filling out the gaps employed in my kung fu over the last 32 years. It made my kung fu more natural, less technical, taught me the key of relaxation and using the 5 methods of breathing, taught me how to root (while moving, which was very difficult at first), and overall gave me the understanding of "sooner" rather than quicker or faster. I will tell you my own personal experience, not related to any others, but an affect tai chi had upon me: it slowed things down while fighting, so I could mentally and emotionally see the opponent's weapon slowly or seemingly so. Made me realize the fist and foot were unimportant, it was the gates/door connectins of wrist/ankle, elbow/knee, shoulder/waist,and other manifestations.  And, to be honest, watching a Chen stylist move or express jing, or move well during fighting, is example enough from my observation. And, yes, I have incorporated these theories in two real fights defending myself in one instance and my family in another.


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## Anthony Walmsley

> Most Taiji practitioners today can't defend themselves with Taiji regardless of style. Most do not take push hands, if they do push hands at all, beyond basic drills and basic push hands is not *sparing*. It is far from sparing actually. You need to get to free style push hands to come close to *sparing* but you need to understand the basics of the forms and the principles of Taiji before you get to that.
> 
> So most do form, fewer do push hands and very few *spar* regardless of style.
> 
> But, IMO, it is easier to get some level of SD in Chen style than Yang but that does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that Chen is any easier to master than Yang because it isn't.


 
'Sorry but I will return to my question, what exactly is meant by the term 'sparing'? 

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha


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## oxy

The art of surviving an economic crisis.


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## seasoned

*Tai Chi?*
If you can incorporate Tai Chi principals into your own art, and your own art, becomes better, as some have said, then what is missing in our own art?? :idea:


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## Xue Sheng

Anthony Walmsley said:


> 'Sorry but I will return to my question, what exactly is meant by the term 'sparing'?
> 
> Anthony Walmsley.
> www.wau.it/haha


 
Basically a friendly fight in a controlled environment


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## seasoned

seasoned said:


> *Tai Chi?*
> If you can incorporate Tai Chi principals into your own art, and your own art, becomes better, as some have said, then what is missing in our own art?? :idea:


 
Perhaps nothing. Maybe as in Tai Chi we need to look inward within our own art, learn from Tai Chi in the respect that we need to, not just do, but feel. It took me way to many years to feel rather then just do. And it all started with a class I took to enhance my GoJu, and things have not been the same since. There is a lot of substance in Tai Chi that takes a long time to feel, but what you get out of it is well worth your while. Just some thoughts.


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## Anthony Walmsley

Xue Sheng said:


> Basically a friendly fight in a controlled environment


 
Well, to be perfectly honest, I have never witnessed or been involved in a 'friendly fight'! Further, so called 'sparring' can have tragic results.

May I ask how you would train a middle aged housewife?

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha


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## Quotheraving

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> What does this mean? What is scritinised?





			
				ljdevo said:
			
		

> so that your *technique* can be scritinised fully


Scrutinised both by oneself and the teacher so that the subtleties can be better grasped and made effective use of at full speed.
And in answer to the original question, yes when proficient Tai Chi becomes a very effective martial art.


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## girlbug2

Sure, speed it up a little and you have a martial art as valid as any other.


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## Yoshiyahu

Has anyone of you guys ever used your Tai Chi to spar or fight with?


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## Anthony Walmsley

Yoshiyahu said:


> Has anyone of you guys ever used your Tai Chi to spar or fight with?


 
Before you can expect an answer, perhaps you should explain what you mean by 'spar' - do you mean with gloves, gum shield etc., in a ring with a Doctor present, rounds and weight divisions?

And a 'fight'? Do you mean a 'self defense' situation?

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.t/haha


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## Xue Sheng

Yoshiyahu said:


> Has anyone of you guys ever used your Tai Chi to spar or fight with?


 
I used it in security at a hospital I use to work at.


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## Xue Sheng

Anthony Walmsley said:


> Well, to be perfectly honest, I have never witnessed or been involved in a 'friendly fight'! Further, so called 'sparring' can have tragic results.
> 
> May I ask how you would train a middle aged housewife?
> 
> Anthony Walmsley.
> www.wau.it/haha


 
That would be why I started the statement with "Basically". There are multiple things that can happen while soarring but a definition is highly unlikley to take in all those possibilities. And one can get pretty badly injured in some CMA forms but it is still a form not a fight.

How would one training a middle aged house wife in Taiji? Well to be honest most middle aged house wives in taiji do not want any martial arts at all.... To be completely honest most people who take taiji do not want any martial arts at all and many that do don't have the patience to take the time.

Maybe you should define what you mean by sparring and we can stop this back and forth and get to the point you are after.


----------



## Anthony Walmsley

Xue Sheng said:


> That would be why I started the statement with "Basically". There are multiple things that can happen while soarring but a definition is highly unlikley to take in all those possibilities. And one can get pretty badly injured in some CMA forms but it is still a form not a fight.
> 
> How would one training a middle aged house wife in Taiji? Well to be honest most middle aged house wives in taiji do not want any martial arts at all.... To be completely honest most people who take taiji do not want any martial arts at all and many that do don't have the patience to take the time.
> 
> Maybe you should define what you mean by sparring and we can stop this back and forth and get to the point you are after.


 
I see 'sparring', with or without protection, as a 'Martial Sports' training method not a 'Martial Arts' training method.
I perceive Taijiquan, or any other Martial Art, as a system that will give the practitioner at least a chance of defending themselves in the event of a serious physical assault; in other words a system of 'Self Defense'. 
I proposed the question of training a middle aged housewife because one cannot train such a person to defend themselves through participation in 'sparring', 'Tui Shou Competitions', or other sports orientated methods.

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Yes, Okay can you spar with Tai Chi with mma gloves or kenpo gloves on along with a mouth peice and a cup and possibly a helment?




Anthony Walmsley said:


> Before you can expect an answer, perhaps you should explain what you mean by 'spar' - do you mean with gloves, gum shield etc., in a ring with a Doctor present, rounds and weight divisions?
> 
> And a 'fight'? Do you mean a 'self defense' situation?
> 
> Anthony Walmsley.
> www.wau.t/haha


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I am sorry I do not mean sparring as competition or going to MMA or San Shou. That is a guage for your skill but not a training method. I see practicing defense drills, Push hands variations,Chi Sau and Sparring with your class mates as training methods to being able to use your Tai Chi. The more you use your Tai Chi in light or heavy sparring the more you will learn from expereince. I don't mean sparring someone who is trying to take your eye out or knock you unconscious. But sparring in matter where you trade techniques and learn how to use your CMA. I don't mean you go for throat chokes,leg and arm breaks, You may be able to demostrate where you could have done that technique and this technique. To your friend or family member but it doesn't mean your trying to knock them or hit them for points.

Usually you spar flowing from one technique to another. Light contact 
Is all you need to realize the technique. I think more you spar in fast pace. It will get you use to a scenario where you have to fight at a fast pace. This will increase your understandin.






Anthony Walmsley said:


> I see 'sparring', with or without protection, as a 'Martial Sports' training method not a 'Martial Arts' training method.
> I perceive Taijiquan, or any other Martial Art, as a system that will give the practitioner at least a chance of defending themselves in the event of a serious physical assault; in other words a system of 'Self Defense'.
> I proposed the question of training a middle aged housewife because one cannot train such a person to defend themselves through participation in 'sparring', 'Tui Shou Competitions', or other sports orientated methods.
> 
> Anthony Walmsley.
> www.wau.it/haha


----------



## Anthony Walmsley

Yoshiyahu said:


> I am sorry I do not mean sparring as competition or going to MMA or San Shou. That is a guage for your skill but not a training method. I see practicing defense drills, Push hands variations,Chi Sau and Sparring with your class mates as training methods to being able to use your Tai Chi. The more you use your Tai Chi in light or heavy sparring the more you will learn from expereince. I don't mean sparring someone who is trying to take your eye out or knock you unconscious. But sparring in matter where you trade techniques and learn how to use your CMA. I don't mean you go for throat chokes,leg and arm breaks, You may be able to demostrate where you could have done that technique and this technique. To your friend or family member but it doesn't mean your trying to knock them or hit them for points.
> 
> Usually you spar flowing from one technique to another. Light contact
> Is all you need to realize the technique. I think more you spar in fast pace. It will get you use to a scenario where you have to fight at a fast pace. This will increase your understandin.


 
I am afraid we are speaking about different things; I repeat, 'sports' training methods do not address the problems of a person who wishes to learn 'Self Defense'. Participating in any form of competition is not only potentially dangerous but can never simulate an unexpected, brutal assault by one or more persons; this requires specific training.
It is for this reason that I am attempting to understand exactly what is meant by the the terms 'fight', 'combat situation', 'sparring' etc., used in  messages here. 

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha


----------



## Xue Sheng

Anthony Walmsley said:


> I am afraid we are speaking about different things; I repeat, 'sports' training methods do not address the problems of a person who wishes to learn 'Self Defense'. Participating in any form of competition is not only potentially dangerous but can never simulate an unexpected, brutal assault by one or more persons; this requires specific training.
> It is for this reason that I am attempting to understand exactly what is meant by the the terms 'fight', 'combat situation', 'sparring' etc., used in messages here.
> 
> Anthony Walmsley.
> www.wau.it/haha


 
I would not believe for a minute that the majority of taiji people out there could fight their way out of a paper bag. However if you do train Taiji correctly you can in fact defend yourself rather well but so very few train it correctly or have the patience to take the time (we are talking years) and taiji is far from something like Sanshou in it's approach to a "fight". I have trained Police/Military Sanda and it is by far a lot more offensive than taiji. However I know from experience that my Sanda sifu who is in his 40s is quite capable of defending himself in just about any SD situation as is my taiji sifu who is in his 70s. But the training that my taiji sifu did was incredibly different than what most do today. I am trying to get close to his understanding but where he saw his sifu 5 to 7 times a week and trained tuishou constantly in as he advanced I get to see him only once a week and it is incredibly difficult in my area to find anyone that is truly interested in Tuishou beyond the stationary single and double hand without applications. By the way both the Sanda I trained and the Taiji I train use Tuishou training but it is not the same.

But with that said in an attack I know for a fact that absorb and redirect works rather well as does the qinna I learned form my sifu 

Also as a final addition I would say that if you find a legitimate Zhaobao teacher/student that it is likely they are pretty effective as a fighter. The same goes for Chen but that number is rapidly dwindling and Yang style I would say that there are next to none that do SD as compared to those that don&#8217;t. And there are a few that have taken the taiji form they learned and combined it with another style and they call it taiji and even though it may be effective it is most certainly not taiji.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Okay let me make a scenario....Not going to a sport competition to get ranked. But lets say you go tai chi class. You do push hands an the whole nine. But you still are not sure how your techniques will come together in actual combat. Now depending on your skill level you may need the following:
1.Head Gear with face shield
2.Mouth Piece
3.Cup
4.Chest guard

An you and a class mate close to your level spars with equipment on using only Tai Chi Techniques. In other word you trade techniques using speed and power but not to much where you injure one another. Now lets say you use medium strength which would be alot more painful with out a helment. But with helment it just feels like tap. This what you want to do. Get your practice using Tai Chi with out hurting one another so you can see how it all comes together with out hurting one another...You spar to learn and feel and to grow your techniques. not beat up your sparring partner or injure him like they do in competitons. Your sparring partner may be a classmate. Or maybe someone you know from another style...


This is what I mean by sparring...




Anthony Walmsley said:


> I am afraid we are speaking about different things; I repeat, 'sports' training methods do not address the problems of a person who wishes to learn 'Self Defense'. Participating in any form of competition is not only potentially dangerous but can never simulate an unexpected, brutal assault by one or more persons; this requires specific training.
> It is for this reason that I am attempting to understand exactly what is meant by the the terms 'fight', 'combat situation', 'sparring' etc., used in messages here.
> 
> Anthony Walmsley.
> www.wau.it/haha


----------



## jarrod

i fight with tai chi every time i try to do my form.  so far, tai chi wins everytime.

jf


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## Yoshiyahu

I love your answer...ha ha lol...great...

Tai Chi kicking your ****...

Stick and move...



jarrod said:


> i fight with tai chi every time i try to do my form. so far, tai chi wins everytime.
> 
> jf


----------



## Anthony Walmsley

Yoshiyahu said:


> Okay let me make a scenario....Not going to a sport competition to get ranked. But lets say you go tai chi class. You do push hands an the whole nine. But you still are not sure how your techniques will come together in actual combat. Now depending on your skill level you may need the following:
> 1.Head Gear with face shield
> 2.Mouth Piece
> 3.Cup
> 4.Chest guard
> 
> And you and a class mate close to your level spars with equipment on using only Tai Chi Techniques. In other word you trade techniques using speed and power but not to much where you injure one another. Now lets say you use medium strength which would be alot more painful with out a helment. But with helment it just feels like tap. This what you want to do. Get your practice using Tai Chi with out hurting one another so you can see how it all comes together with out hurting one another...You spar to learn and feel and to grow your techniques. not beat up your sparring partner or injure him like they do in competitons. Your sparring partner may be a classmate. Or maybe someone you know from another style...
> 
> 
> This is what I mean by sparring...


 
The methods you suggest are the opposite of those I teach. I teach - to those who are interested - Taijiquan as a Self Defense art. From the first lesson, students are introduced to not only Qigong, a 'form' and Tui Shou but also: 
Two person 'Attack/Defense' methods.
Bag and Focus Mitt work.
Falling, rolling and break-falling.
ChinNa with take-downs and throws.
YinYang Symbol Tui Shou.
Pentagonal stepping methods.
Impact training.
Introduction to Vital Point Manipulation.
Wide Angle Peripheral Vision training.
Spontaneous Reflex Responses.
Fa Jin.
No protection is used; the partner training progresses from 'controlled' striking to full out attacks with the 'attacker' using as much physical power as possible. This applies to all students no matter their age, sex or physical size.  
The list above does not include everything taught but is a reasonable overview of the training.  

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha


----------



## Xue Sheng

Yoshiyahu said:


> 1.Head Gear with face shield
> 2.Mouth Piece
> 3.Cup
> 4.Chest guard


 

Then no because that list right there my sifu's sifu would never have thought of and my sifu would think was pretty funny as would my Sanda sifu. But to quote my old TKD teacher, you don't have that in a fight why do you need it here.

Your looking at taiji sparing as a boxing or karate match were 2 people stand there an duke it out toe to toe and that is not how taiji will approach a fight. It tends to like to be close and it is rather hard to use Qinna wearing boxing gloves. 

My Sanda Sifu sparred during his training in China but there was no protection because there would be none in reality and people got hurt. My Taiji Sifu did a lot of Tuishou and what we would call free style tuishou (he just calls tuishou) that is more like Taiji sparring it is using what you know in taiji up close and personal. And I can tell you from experience that you REALLY need to keep control of your opponent because that back fist hurts.

I would love to be able to suggest to you Tung Ying Chieh's Red book but the English translation is horrible But there is a book by Fu Zhongwen I am told is rather good and of course the book by Yang Chengfu is a good one as well and these may give you a better understanding. Also there is a book by Yang Jwing Ming called "Tai Chi Secrets of the Yang Style: Chinese Classics, Translations" that is pretty good as well and gives some ideas to how taiji approaches a fight from Yang Banhou


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## Yoshiyahu

Your School sounds exceptional...No thats what i am talking about just great...keep it up....





Anthony Walmsley said:


> The methods you suggest are the opposite of those I teach. I teach - to those who are interested - Taijiquan as a Self Defense art. From the first lesson, students are introduced to not only Qigong, a 'form' and Tui Shou but also:
> Two person 'Attack/Defense' methods.
> Bag and Focus Mitt work.
> Falling, rolling and break-falling.
> ChinNa with take-downs and throws.
> YinYang Symbol Tui Shou.
> Pentagonal stepping methods.
> Impact training.
> Introduction to Vital Point Manipulation.
> Wide Angle Peripheral Vision training.
> Spontaneous Reflex Responses.
> Fa Jin.
> No protection is used; the partner training progresses from 'controlled' striking to full out attacks with the 'attacker' using as much physical power as possible. This applies to all students no matter their age, sex or physical size.
> The list above does not include everything taught but is a reasonable overview of the training.
> 
> Anthony Walmsley.
> www.wau.it/haha


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Very interesting discussion...Well I see your point...thanks for the books...I will have to get me a book fund started and invest sometime soon...But the reason Why I saying what I said about protective gear is to get use you using Tai Chi palm stirkes and fist. Its a good way to use your strikes and blocks and wave hands like clouds...As for Chin Na techniques...of course I practice those separately...or we do light sparring with out gear on...where we lightly tap the head or use medium force on the body...but the idea is never to hurt or injure your partner...its about self control but getting the practice in. A person who fights has experience. Thats what its about...Its about flowing application.
As for what you don't have in a fight...you are so correct...the idea is to build up...Some techniques in Wing Chun I don't use while sparring because I don't want to hurt my sparring partner. But with a helment and shield I can use those techniques. With protective eye googles I use other techniques. and get the practice of using or performing the moves....

Thats all I am saying maybe know one really understands me...its cool...



Xue Sheng said:


> Then no because that list right there my sifu's sifu would never have thought of and my sifu would think was pretty funny as would my Sanda sifu. But to quote my old TKD teacher, you don't have that in a fight why do you need it here.
> 
> Your looking at taiji sparing as a boxing or karate match were 2 people stand there an duke it out toe to toe and that is not how taiji will approach a fight. It tends to like to be close and it is rather hard to use Qinna wearing boxing gloves.
> 
> My Sanda Sifu sparred during his training in China but there was no protection because there would be none in reality and people got hurt. My Taiji Sifu did a lot of Tuishou and what we would call free style tuishou (he just calls tuishou) that is more like Taiji sparring it is using what you know in taiji up close and personal. And I can tell you from experience that you REALLY need to keep control of your opponent because that back fist hurts.
> 
> I would love to be able to suggest to you Tung Ying Chieh's Red book but the English translation is horrible But there is a book by Fu Zhongwen I am told is rather good and of course the book by Yang Chengfu is a good one as well and these may give you a better understanding. Also there is a book by Yang Jwing Ming called "Tai Chi Secrets of the Yang Style: Chinese Classics, Translations" that is pretty good as well and gives some ideas to how taiji approaches a fight from Yang Banhou


----------



## Xue Sheng

Yoshiyahu said:


> Very interesting discussion...Well I see your point...thanks for the books...I will have to get me a book fund started and invest sometime soon...But the reason Why I saying what I said about protective gear is to get use you using Tai Chi palm stirkes and fist. Its a good way to use your strikes and blocks and wave hands like clouds...As for Chin Na techniques...of course I practice those separately...or we do light sparring with out gear on...where we lightly tap the head or use medium force on the body...but the idea is never to hurt or injure your partner...its about self control but getting the practice in. A person who fights has experience. Thats what its about...Its about flowing application.
> As for what you don't have in a fight...you are so correct...the idea is to build up...Some techniques in Wing Chun I don't use while sparring because I don't want to hurt my sparring partner. But with a helment and shield I can use those techniques. With protective eye googles I use other techniques. and get the practice of using or performing the moves....
> 
> Thats all I am saying maybe know one really understands me...its cool...


 
In Sanda we used one of these to practice strikes Blocks and kicks. In Taiji I have used this and this as well as one of these

The idea, IMO, when you are talking Neijia is control. Learn how to control your body and your mind and after that then sparing...maybe

And please tell me when you are sparing you are not hoping around like a western boxer, particularly using taiji.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

That tree looks like a formidable opponent.

Trees don't run they stand their ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3l2a_ESwPc&feature=PlayList&p=FBBC07D320E509CF&playnext=1&index=18

hehe


----------



## Xue Sheng

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> That tree looks like a formidable opponent.
> 
> Trees don't run they stand their ground.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3l2a_ESwPc&feature=PlayList&p=FBBC07D320E509CF&playnext=1&index=18
> 
> hehe


 
:lol:

Bunch of sissys...real men take them down with thier FISTS


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## Yoshiyahu

Sounds excellent...Great...i love this post...


Tell me more about control the control of your body and mind?



Xue Sheng said:


> In Sanda we used one of these to practice strikes Blocks and kicks. In Taiji I have used this and this as well as one of these
> 
> The idea, IMO, when you are talking Neijia is control. Learn how to control your body and your mind and after that then sparing...maybe
> 
> And please tell me when you are sparing you are not hoping around like a western boxer, particularly using taiji.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Yoshiyahu said:


> Sounds excellent...Great...i love this post...
> 
> 
> Tell me more about control the control of your body and mind?


 
Sorry no it is discussed in the books I recommended.

And I must think you for something. In another discussion we were having I posted a view my Sanda Sifu would likely have about Neijia and Waijia and I thought about that for awhile and it brought back some old school thinking abut my training that I did not realize I had forgotten and how much it was missed.. OK thinking a lot about that and hearing an old song by AC/DC this morning while still thinking about that but it was that discussion that trigged it

Thanks :asian:


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## Xue Sheng

I will say it has to do with Sandao.. in part


----------



## Flying Crane

I haven't read EVERYTHING in the thread so far, but I've perused a lot of the answers.  If my comments have already been made by others here, then I apologise for being repetitive.

keep in mind, taiji is not just the forms, and the forms do not all move slowly.  It's my understanding that even Yang style has very fast forms as well, but most people never learned them so they have become a bit of a rarity nowadays.  Chen style of course has very explosive movements in the forms, and the forms tend to be done faster than what most Westerners would recognize as taiji if they've only seen mainstream Yang.

Also, I believe that at least a number of years back before it started to become a tourist attraction, the Chen village engaged in some heavy training including serious technique application, hitting heavy bags, weight training and conditioning and the like.  In short, they trained like any other serious martial artist would.  It wasn't that just doing this form slowly would magically turn you into a skilled fighter.  Rather, it was a lot of hard training, including stuff with heavy contact, and also including forms training, that develops one's skills.  

Today, in the West, most people don't practice taiji in this way.  They just do the form, and they tend to only do the slow forms, and they feel that is enough. But to become a good martial artist, the full range of training is important.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Your Welcome I am glad to share that with you...I have actually been studing this book calle T'ai Chi Chuan  "becoming one with the Tao" by Petra & Toyo Kobayashi....


Pretty basic stuff.




Xue Sheng said:


> Sorry no it is discussed in the books I recommended.
> 
> And I must think you for something. In another discussion we were having I posted a view my Sanda Sifu would likely have about Neijia and Waijia and I thought about that for awhile and it brought back some old school thinking abut my training that I did not realize I had forgotten and how much it was missed.. OK thinking a lot about that and hearing an old song by AC/DC this morning while still thinking about that but it was that discussion that trigged it
> 
> Thanks :asian:


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Wow thats Excellent Post..I really enjoyed that...




Flying Crane said:


> I haven't read EVERYTHING in the thread so far, but I've perused a lot of the answers. If my comments have already been made by others here, then I apologise for being repetitive.
> 
> keep in mind, taiji is not just the forms, and the forms do not all move slowly. It's my understanding that even Yang style has very fast forms as well, but most people never learned them so they have become a bit of a rarity nowadays. Chen style of course has very explosive movements in the forms, and the forms tend to be done faster than what most Westerners would recognize as taiji if they've only seen mainstream Yang.
> 
> Also, I believe that at least a number of years back before it started to become a tourist attraction, the Chen village engaged in some heavy training including serious technique application, hitting heavy bags, weight training and conditioning and the like. In short, they trained like any other serious martial artist would. It wasn't that just doing this form slowly would magically turn you into a skilled fighter. Rather, it was a lot of hard training, including stuff with heavy contact, and also including forms training, that develops one's skills.
> 
> Today, in the West, most people don't practice taiji in this way. They just do the form, and they tend to only do the slow forms, and they feel that is enough. But to become a good martial artist, the full range of training is important.


----------



## Laoshi77

Having finally read all of the posts regarding the question 'Can you fight with Taiji'? Personally I think Taijiquan is an elusive system that enables the practitioner to be difficult to strike, grab and/or pin; this is what I love most about Taijiquan.

Obviously there are some strikes but I find Taiji to be mostly defensive and used to subdue rather than merely attack.

Hope that makes sense?!


----------



## pete

Laoshi77 said:
			
		

> ... I think Taijiquan is an elusive system that enables the practitioner to be difficult to strike, grab and/or pin; this is what I love most about Taijiquan.
> 
> Obviously there are some strikes but I find Taiji to be mostly defensive and used to subdue rather than merely attack.


 
yes, that 'elusiveness' is key element found in tai chi as a direct result of 'yielding' - not offering your opponent anything substantial to grab on to or strike... as if they are grabbing, striking, or pushing against water.

BUT... that is only half the equation... being 'mostly defensive' would make one 'mostly yin', or deficient in yang - not in balance, not tai chi.

To fight with tai chi one must learn to coordinate giving and receiving, in equal measure at all times to remain in balance and not develop either excess or deficiency. Offense must accompany Defense, so that there is Yin within Yang & Yang within Yin. 

Pete.


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## Yoshiyahu

So in other words Tai Chi is more for Self Defense oppose to being and offensive and combat System like White Crane Karate or Wing Chun or Xing Yi Quan?




Laoshi77 said:


> Having finally read all of the posts regarding the question 'Can you fight with Taiji'? Personally I think Taijiquan is an elusive system that enables the practitioner to be difficult to strike, grab and/or pin; this is what I love most about Taijiquan.
> 
> Obviously there are some strikes but I find Taiji to be mostly defensive and used to subdue rather than merely attack.
> 
> Hope that makes sense?!


----------



## Xue Sheng

Yoshiyahu said:


> So in other words Tai Chi is more for Self Defense oppose to being and offensive and combat System like White Crane Karate or Wing Chun or Xing Yi Quan?


 
Nothing is much like Xingyiquan

In Xingyiquan defense *"is"* offense and first strike is acceptable as well as trained


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Another thing on Hsing yi foot work in the Wu Xing at least is
none of the foot work goes backwards.

You usually always end up in santi shi. So you may start off in Santi perform the technqiue that makes you go forward or at least zig zag then back to Santi.


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## DarkOverSoul

Whoa, well, this is an interesting thread. o_o;; I knew Taiji has its martial aspects, I was just never sure how efficient it was till now. I mean I'm still not sure how well it fair against a more aggressive, and fast fighter, but still quite interesting. Its like everywhere I tend to go everyone keeps saying Taiji is useless in a fight and if any of these fighters tried fighting someone who trained in MMA they would most likely get there asses beaten. Which I do believe is true for a mass majority with how difficult it is to learn this art from what I've read, and the difficulty of finding a decent school. But yes, I can understand this a bit better. 

If you think about it the fact that its been around for a while should be enough proof that it was efficient enough as a fighting art otherwise it whoever uses it wouldn't be around anymore. >.> So I always found it somewhat annoying that a lot of people consider Taiji useless, even though a majority of people are most likely incapable of using it as a martial art. >_>


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## mograph

Someone who really knows how to fight using Tai Chi would move quickly and effortlessly. He would be difficult to uproot. 

Many martial artists just don't understand the slow training of Tai Chi. In my small experience, I've found that the early training of "internal" or "soft" arts such as Tai Chi consist of a lot of movements that don't look martial, or are practiced at a very slow pace, but they have martial uses. Naturally, a "hard" martial artist will beat the stuffing out of a Tai Chi artist in the early stages of Tai Chi training, because the Tai Chi artist would not have had any practice sparring. 

However, if a Tai Chi student is patient enough to progress beyond the early training, and he's at the right school, he will be taught martial applications. And if he practices sparring in the right environment, he will learn how to spar. If he has practiced the early slow exercises properly, they will pay off in terms of calmness, speed and natural (untelegraphed), connected action. 

In short, I believe Tai Chi and similar arts take a "wax on, wax off" approach. It might not look like fighting, but the training lays a strong foundation for martial applications later on.

The patient and slow should not be underestimated. :asian:


----------



## DarkOverSoul

Can't seem to edit my post so I'll just ask, does Tai Chi have actual more direct offensive capabilities when necessary, or is it all redirecting the flow of power your opponent throws back at him?  Since that is from what I read what most soft styles tend to do. >.>


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## grydth

While I would not pretend to speak for all styles of Tai Chi, Yang and its derivatives contains a variety of kicks, punches and strikes. See a book or video showing the Yang 108 form for an excellent example.

I would not characterize any of the Tai Chi variants as "offensive" in application.


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## northern tiger

While most of my martial arts training lies with five animal kung fu I regularly practice qi gong and yang tai chi chuan. I really do believe that tai chi can effectively be used in a real fight and while I don't claim to be a master or even really great at tai chi I have found that the principles of tai chi push hands like warding, absorbing and sticking to have greatly improved my general wrestling, grappling and locking skills. Balance, smoothness and rooting are also aspects that have improved for me.


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## Anthony Walmsley

Regarding the use of Taijiquan for "Self Defense"; those interested in this, should perhaps, consider the implications of:

"I he doesn't move, I don't move.
If he moves slowly, I move slowly but if he attacks, I arrive first."

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha


----------



## pete

Rather than trying to decipher the fortune cookie or trying to reconcile your training with that of the legendary masters (seems to me they all walked to school the proverbial 15 miles uphill in the snow... both ways!)

learn the art from a teacher who can teach you the martial art of tai chi chuan, who can correct you to make it work effectively and efficiently, and who begins the mindset of martial training from the very first lesson.

those that say 'you must wait until you master the form to learn the applications' or 'you must practice for XX months or years before pushing hands' or 'our art is too deadly to cross hands in practice'.... RUN! 

Naturally, you will only be as effective and efficient with the art as your knowledge and skill level dictates, and time & practice will provide continuous improvement.  

My teacher says IT IS, IT IS NOT, IT IS!
very simply, as you progress, you basically learn that you do not know everything, your understanding will cause change in what you believe, and very often, we will over intellectuallize and look for things that may not be there, only to go back to what really IS.

or as the Byrds sang, "_I was so much older then, i'm younger than that now"_

Pete.


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## Laoshi77

pete said:


> ...learn the art from a teacher who can teach you the martial art of tai chi chuan, who can correct you to make it work effectively and efficiently, and who begins the mindset of martial training from the very first lesson.
> 
> those that say 'you must wait until you master the form to learn the applications' or 'you must practice for XX months or years before pushing hands' or 'our art is too deadly to cross hands in practice'.... RUN!


 
Unfortunately this seems to be the main problem with Taijiquan and as a result people can get the wrong impression because it is seldom taught the 'proper' way i.e, as a martial art.

I remember my teacher saying many years ago that she thought there were only 5% of teachers actually teaching combat applications of Taijiquan. Personally I didn't believe her, but who knows for sure?!


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## Kenpo17

Using Tai-Chi would take a long time to fight with, but it is possible.  I am not about to say it is impossible because it's not, if you have learned Tai-Chi for a long time or even if you are just starting, you can use what you've learned to fight.  Although, you are right in the sense that Tai-Chi is different from martial arts such as Tae-Kwon-Do, Shudokan, Judo, and Kenpo/Kempo.  The stile of performing Tai-Chi is usually, not always slower than you would usually expect in a martial art.  People make the big mistake of saying Tai-Chi is all around slow, go tell this to someone that takes Tai-Chi and see what he/she says.  Anyway, Tai-Chi *is not *all around slow, even though they are big into meditating, that does not make the whole art slow.


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## Myrmidon

Xue Sheng said:


> Can You Fight with Tai Chi?
> 
> Yes



*Yes... absolutely!*


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## blindsage

I have a background in Kyokunshinkai Karate and Small Circle Jiu Jitsu and have recently started studying Bagua and am interested in starting Chen Tai Chi at the same school.  We have engaged in application training from the get go and my sifu teaches each style in a similar manner.  With my experience in hard contact sparring and realistic application drills in the past has lead me to want to explore the technique and methods of these styles.  I see a lot of potential in Tai Chi for real applications and fighting.  What I find lacking in a lot of Tai Chi people is an ability to translate technique to a fight situation.  I completely disagree with the notion that sparring is not useful to furthering your skills.  If you don't ever see unscripted techniques coming at you, then you have no context for how to apply your technique.  It makes you refine and make your technique relevant.  And no matter how "hard" or "full-speed" you say you are going in your fight training, if people aren't getting broken noses, broken bones, seriously bleeding, or knocked out every time, you are sparring.  Sparring is an extremely beneficial training tool that can and does significantly supplement the rest of your training.


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## TV954

As with all things, if you have a teacher with the understanding, have an art that is "organic" and not static, and a practice that is vigorous, you may accomplish anything you wish with that art. Tai Chi is no more or less effective as a "fighting art" than any other, it depends on the person and the above components. My lineage has the "power training" which has sometimes been referred to as the "lost" part of Tai Chi. My lineage has always included application and two-person training, both choreographed and freestyle, in the training, so the "fighting" aspect always seemed a given. As an earlier post pointed out, it's the principles of Tai Chi, relaxing, weight shifting, moving from the Tan Tien, rooting, neutralizing, etc. that make it Tai Chi and you can do any movements with Tai Chi principles. I do Tai Chi raking, Tai Chi snow shoveling, well, you get the idea. This idea that one art is better for fighting than another gets really old fast. Arts evolved to fill a certain need at a given time in a given place and most of what we see today has huge pieces missing, has been corrupted, or is incomplete. Only through diligent practice do we see the truth for ourselves in whatever art we play and as long as that truth works for us than it's the right thing. Anyway, throw me a fortune cookie, I'm done.


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## Bob Klein

These are two youtube videos of Tai-chi practice sparring - light sparring for beginning students.


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## davidleehere

Yes, if one can fajin (issue internal power) and learns Sanshou (applications). No, if one only learns the Tai-Chi sets.


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