# Knife Tapping; Making the U-Pattern Work?



## Argus (Aug 13, 2016)

I'm quite interested in knife-defense, and, actually, this is one of my primary reasons for learning FMA.

However, I just can't seem to make my knife-tapping work against a fully resisting opponent at speed. It works in training, but as the speed increases I can't seem to be at the right place at the right time. It seems that one has to turn the body to meet the knife and get offline (because you're parrying with the opposite arm), and it just takes too long to get there/reorient like that at speed.

It seems that either I miss the weapon hand entirely, don't get there in time, or get there with weak structure (because I didn't turn enough) that doesn't stop the attack. I also don't seem to be able to acquire the knife with a tertiary hand parry. Oddly enough, it's much easier to grab, though, and I have great success just grabbing it with no thought of parrying or technique.

I'd like to make tapping functional, though, and "debug" my technique and/or practice, if you will. I suppose that it may just be that I need to practice it much more, and slowly increase the level of speed/adversity. But, it concerns me that it's completely nonfunctional for me right now. I've trained this a number of times under different teachers, so I wasn't under the impression that my technique is that off, but...

Any tips from your experience as to how to train this / what I might be doing poorly?


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## Juany118 (Aug 13, 2016)

Argus said:


> I'm quite interested in knife-defense, and, actually, this is one of my primary reasons for learning FMA.
> 
> However, I just can't seem to make my knife-tapping work against a fully resisting opponent at speed. It works in training, but as the speed increases I can't seem to be at the right place at the right time. It seems that one has to turn the body to meet the knife and get offline (because you're parrying with the opposite arm), and it just takes too long to get there/reorient like that at speed.
> 
> ...



Well first let me note the below is based on reading what you wrote.  If I understand correctly, if the opponent has the knife in the right hand you are also using your right hand to pass.  I say pass because we operate under the idea of "the hand chases the blade" in my school, so you are basically "passing" the blade wielding arm in the opposite direction of where your zoning is taking you.  I say this because it is also possible to "pass" a right hand wielded knife with your left, which is easier, though follow up techniques are more limited.  It is effective though.

That said the key issue is the footwork regardless.  I have a semi-regular training partner who I think has an issue similar to what you describe and it comes down to his footwork/zoning.  When I tell him to do the following things get a lot easier.

I tell him to picture the ground made up of a series of equilateral triangles. "You" are always at the point, your opponent at the base.  The size of the triangles is based on the size of the weapon (or lack there of).  If the knife is coming from the right hand you are zoning at what is "roughly" a 45 degree angle to your left at the same time that you are attempting to "pass" the blade to your right (opponent's left).  This way, even if you miss, your footwork should have moved you out of harms way.  

I had issues with tapping too, but it didn't start with my hands, it started with my footwork.  First my hand/orientation was too slow.  Then my hand was on target but my body was still in the way.  I came to Kali after years of using basic Judo and Aikido techniques to simply take suspects to the ground.  For this you basically go straight in for a limb to control or to trip/flip the suspect.  because of this I simply didn't zone enough and this messed up the passing.  I got over this in my typically anal retentive way.  I would do footwork drills in the living room while watching TV with the wife (much to her annoyance lol).


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## Charlemagne (Aug 13, 2016)

Argus said:


> Any tips from your experience as to how to train this / what I might be doing poorly?



Your comments are not unusual.  First of all, tapping against someone who knows you are going to tap is all but impossible.  Grand Tuhon Gaje is fond of saying "no one will tap your knife".  Tuhon Waid echos this all the time.  What they mean is that we are never going to allow someone to tap us, because we know it is coming.  If I attack you on a #5 thrust, and I see you start to move towards the tap, I will simply cut out and move to my next thrust.  And, because you have no choice except to honor my attack, my action towards the next thrust in my sequence will be faster than your reaction to the fact that have moved on to another attack.  Long story short, you are not tapping against someone who knows the knife.  You must control the range, and pray to God you see the knife coming.

Secondly, remember that knife tapping is not knife fighting.  It is a last second holy crap technique when other things have already gone bad.  Simply put, if you find yourself having to tap, you have screwed up big time.  You either didn't see it coming in time, didn't execute footwork, or didn't attack yourself when you saw that it was officially "on".  Either way, you have screwed the pooch at that point, and you are now stuck having to make the best of a really bad situation, aka knife tapping. 

Finally, remember that the knife tap is supposed to be an attack to the person's arm, not simply passing the blade.  So, the idea that you are going to execute more than one or two taps in a row is a misunderstanding of thinking that drilling knife tapping is the same thing as real world empty hand versus knife.  You drill a bunch of attacks in sequence so that you can get reps of training, but that is not how it is going to be done.


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## Juany118 (Aug 13, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Your comments are not unusual.  First of all, tapping against someone who knows you are going to tap is all but impossible.  Grand Tuhon Gaje is fond of saying "no one will tap your knife".  Tuhon Waid echos this all the time.  What they mean is that we are never going to allow someone to tap us, because we know it is coming.  Secondly, remember that knife tapping is not knife fighting.  It is a last second holy crap technique when other things have already gone bad.  Simply put, if you find yourself having to tap, you have screwed up big time.  Finally, remember that the knife tap is supposed to be an attack to the person's arm, not simply passing the blade.  So, the idea that you are going to execute more than one or two taps in a row is a misunderstanding of thinking that drilling knife tapping is the same thing as real world empty hand versus knife.  You drill a bunch of attacks in sequence so that you can get reps of training, but that is not how it is going to be done.



this is all true.  I noted on a thread regarding open hands on this particular form that I am "striking" in a real fight.  When I say "pass" I am more talking about the direction you want the limb to go in after you strike, and of course you want to avoid striking a training partner .  The purpose of the drill (imo) is to get used to the coordination of footwork and general arm movements.  However real execution involves striking, stripping, attacking elbows etc.  You are NEVER simply passing or checking the knife hand so you can attack empty handed.  You want to take that knife/limb out of the equation ASAP.

My suspicion is this, and @Argus please correct me if I am wrong.  In my experience with weapons (FMA and Olympic Foil and Saber) foot work needs to be precise but more "open" (for lack of a better term).  He has taken FMA but his main focus has been WC.  Often WC has a tendency to get people wrapped into a "keep going into that guys face/chest" and so the footwork is generally tight and linear. I focused on the concept of tapping because he may be having issues adjusting.   Transitioning to a knife attack requires a different mindset and that, imo is what a tapping drill is about.  Once you get the drill down, then you go to real world application


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## Charlemagne (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't disagree with any of that.  

In Pekiti Tirsia, I see knife tapping as our version of Immediate Action Drills (IAD's). 

Here is what I mean. Infantryman don't want to have to react to an ambush. But ambushes happen, so they have tactics to deal with them when they do. If the ambush is set up properly, either running away or staying where you are will get you killed. The only things left are to: 1) assault the ambush, get fire superiority, take out the threat, and get out of Dodge before more bad guys come; or, 2) break contact in organized fashion while putting rounds on target. In the infantry and in most special operations units, these drills are practiced over and over again, not because they are complex or because you want to do them, but because if you have to use them in real life then you are in a world of crap. Therefore, you better be able to do your IAD's well, without much conscious thought, and while under very high amounts of stress. If you can't, you're toast, and so are all of your buddies.

The knife is an ambush weapon. If the person attacking you has set thing up properly, they will have both the range and timing as well as the element of surprise. You can't turn around and run faster than they can attack, and you can't stand there and do nothing. What's left is to attack them, starting with the knife-wielding arm, give 'em "the business", then get out of there if you can (break contact) or draw your own weapon if you cannot (assault the ambush). Furthermore, knife tapping should not be a passive parry, it should be an attack. You should be trying to punish someone's arm, not just redirect the energy. Just as with the Immediate Action Drills that we talked about above, if you cannot perform this under high levels of stress and without much in the way of conscious thought, you are in trouble, big time. As such, things should be kept simple, particularly for beginners. There are only so many angles that a knife attack can realistically come from anyway.


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## Juany118 (Aug 13, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> I don't disagree with any of that.
> 
> In Pekiti Tirsia, I see knife tapping as our version of Immediate Action Drills (IAD's).
> 
> ...



I know exactly by what you mean with IAD's... I was a 19D (Cav Scout).  20 years later I still had those drills ringing in my head the minute I read that.  We even had a darkly humorous joke (since I was usually "light") "If we get ambushed by an armored force, triangulate the enemy position from the last time we broke squelch." 

I never thought of that analogy however, I will need to remember it because it is a damn good one


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## Charlemagne (Aug 13, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> ...I will need to remember it because it is a damn good one



Thanks for that.


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## Juany118 (Aug 13, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Thanks for that.




No worries, credit need go where it is due.  Another thing I noticed with the semi-regular training partner and I mentioned it to him and you noted it here... " and without much in the way of conscious thought, you are in trouble, big time."  He is trained professionally as a Chemist so he is very analytical.  You can actually "see" him thinking sometimes.  So I have told him more than once (as has my Guro) "stop thinking, just do."  I even cracked a joke one night that admittedly kinda ruined the drill because he was laughing so hard... I said "trust your feelings" followed by... 




As much as it is funny I find this the core of Kali, or any real world application of a martial art really.  You need to let go, not think too much, it is like a chaotic improvisational dance and thinking will make you trip.


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## Danny T (Aug 14, 2016)

Knife Tapping Drill first and foremost is an OH S%#T Response Drill. In reality one doesn't want to tap but you may have to utilize a piece of the tapping 'response' drill to buy time. The drill is a response development drill that the feeder will always win (if he/she really wants to). Within the drill footwork, range, body positioning & angle, timing, limb presentation & positioning are developed and ingrained. 
There is or should be a progression used for the practitioners development.
1. Learn the drill and know what is being developed and why.
2. Footwork and body positioning should place you either inside or outside the arc of the attack.
3. Continue with primary hand development until becoming comfortable and can parry or pass the attacking limb properly. There are at least two different footwork and body positioning actions used per each parry or pass. In time you will or should realize these actions allows for counter-attack actions during the intercepting phase of the movement, a counter-attack at the interception, and right after the intercepting. Then there is the footwork and actual parry which can be a parry or a sticking to the attacking limb. In the first you are parry or passing the attack in the second the attacker has abandoned the first attack and is moving to attack from a different angle. The footwork and positioning from the primary parry development also presents the limbs automatically for opposite side attack interceptions and later your counter-attacks as well. Primary hand only at speed will get you hurt badly.
4. Move on to the secondary hand development 'after' becoming proficient with your primary hand. Again here your footwork must place you either inside or outside of the attack arc. Secondary hand development allows you time to get your primary hand into play and allows you time to have your first counter-attack action within the movement. As this phase develops the attacker should begin to pass your attack which places your primary hand in position to parry or attack the limb.
5. Tertiary hand development begins after the primary and secondary hands are becoming proficient and the proper responses are performed due to the triggering from the Tapping of the elbow, arm, and/or hand by the feeder. Footwork is key.

The tapping drill is a platform for developing positioning for counter-attacking and is not about passing. Out of this platform, wristlocks, armlocks, shoulderlocks, disarms, strips, takedowns and finishers will be developed as well. But all within due time. Get the primary hand with its associated footwork and body positioning before moving to secondary and tertiary hand development.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Knife Tapping Drill first and foremost is an OH S%#T Response Drill. In reality one doesn't want to tap but you may have to utilize a piece of the tapping 'response' drill to buy time. The drill is a response development drill that the feeder will always win (if he/she really wants to). Within the drill footwork, range, body positioning & angle, timing, limb presentation & positioning are developed and ingrained.
> There is or should be a progression used for the practitioners development.
> 1. Learn the drill and know what is being developed and why.
> 2. Footwork and body positioning should place you either inside or outside the arc of the attack.
> ...


I'm following along in this discussion because FMA has influenced my knife defenses since a friend showed me some basic principles about a dozen years ago. Can someone point me to a decent video that shows what "tapping" is, so I can keep up with the terminology you guys are using?


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## Danny T (Aug 14, 2016)

This shows:
The basic attacks. High forehand, High backhand, and a low forehand.
The primary hand parries and the secondary hand to primary hand parries. 
Tertiary hand is not show.

Unfortunately the defender is in a walking cast so his footwork isn't the best but this should allow you to see the attacks, the primary hand passes and the secondary hand checking to allow the primary to come back into the parry. It does not show any 3rd hand counter attacks.

Note the attacker also 'tapping' the defender's elbow on the passes.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm following along in this discussion because FMA has influenced my knife defenses since a friend showed me some basic principles about a dozen years ago. Can someone point me to a decent video that shows what "tapping" is, so I can keep up with the terminology you guys are using?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Danny T said:


> This shows:
> The basic attacks. High forehand, High backhand, and a low forehand.
> The primary hand parries and the secondary hand to primary hand parries.
> Tertiary hand is not show.
> ...


Thanks - that's a drill I've seen before, and part of what informed some of my alterations to knife defense. I simply wasn't familiar with the terminology, apparently.


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## Juany118 (Aug 15, 2016)

Here is an interesting video.  It isn't a tapping drill, I don't even show it to people for techniques, but I do like showing it to people because you can see that the heart is pumping even at the slow speed of the knife, because that shock knife will hit ya with 7000 volts if it connects.  My Guro keeps talking about getting a couple for the school and I think it would actually be a good idea tbh.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Here is an interesting video.  It isn't a tapping drill, I don't even show it to people for techniques, but I do like showing it to people because you can see that the heart is pumping even at the slow speed of the knife, because that shock knife will hit ya with 7000 volts if it connects.  My Guro keeps talking about getting a couple for the school and I think it would actually be a good idea tbh.


I had forgotten these exist. Anyone on here have experience with them? I think they would be a fantastic training aid once a student is solid on the basics. I also noticed that the look of the fake weapon seems to alter the response. When I use a wooden tanto, it elicits very little response except from the greenest of students. When I use my aluminum training knife, they seem to get a bit more "avoidy".


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## Charlemagne (Aug 15, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Anyone on here have experience with them?



I've played around with them a little bit.  They sting, and I think they would good for training from time to time, but care needs to be taken so that it doesn't turn into playing tag with them if you are going to use them for sparring.  For drilling something like tapping, providing it is done properly, I think it would be more beneficial.


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## Danny T (Aug 15, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> I've played around with them a little bit.  They sting, and I think they would good for training from time to time, but care needs to be taken so that it doesn't turn into playing tag with them if you are going to use them for sparring.  For drilling something like tapping, providing it is done properly, I think it would be more beneficial.


Have also played with them good tool if used properly.
Major concern I have with knife sparring is the same playing tag you describe. If we can play tag I should have created distance and away from the situation or have placed something between me and the attacking knife.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 15, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Have also played with them good tool if used properly.
> Major concern I have with knife sparring is the same playing tag you describe. If we can play tag I should have created distance and away from the situation or have placed something between me and the attacking knife.



Absolutely agree, to the extent that it is possible.  We aren't training to duel with the knife.


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## Blindside (Aug 15, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I had forgotten these exist. Anyone on here have experience with them? I think they would be a fantastic training aid once a student is solid on the basics. I also noticed that the look of the fake weapon seems to alter the response. When I use a wooden tanto, it elicits very little response except from the greenest of students. When I use my aluminum training knife, they seem to get a bit more "avoidy".



They are ok, scarier than aluminum but not really worth the hundreds of dollars more than a chunk of aluminum.


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## Juany118 (Aug 15, 2016)

Blindside said:


> They are ok, scarier than aluminum but not really worth the hundreds of dollars more than a chunk of aluminum.



If use properly I beg to differ.  One of the things I often see in class are some students kinda just going through the motions, they don't do things with true "intent" (for lack of a better term.) I would think adding an element of danger would produce the requisite intent.

It's kinda like going to a shoot house as a cop.  When you do room clearing knowing the OPFOR has a gun loaded with simunitions, you are definitely clearing those rooms with the requisite intent because those things hurt lol.


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## Blindside (Aug 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> If use properly I beg to differ.  One of the things I often see in class are some students kinda just going through the motions, they don't do things with true "intent" (for lack of a better term.) I would think adding an element of danger would produce the requisite intent.
> 
> It's kinda like going to a shoot house as a cop.  When you do room clearing knowing the OPFOR has a gun loaded with simunitions, you are definitely clearing those rooms with the requisite intent because those things hurt lol.



That is mostly a training mindset thing.  I don't find them terribly useful because I honor the weapon treating it as a sharp.  If I have a student who isn't treating the sharkee that we normally train with as a knife I will up the ante to a sharper and heavier aluminum blade.  I have never had a student go through the motion as the aluminum got nastier and the power being fed got harder.  To me it is just a budget thing, I can replicate intent with a decent training partner, I don't need electricity.  I think it is a nice tool but not hundreds of dollars nice.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 16, 2016)

Blindside said:


> That is mostly a training mindset thing.  I don't find them terribly useful because I honor the weapon treating it as a sharp.  If I have a student who isn't treating the sharkee that we normally train with as a knife I will up the ante to a sharper and heavier aluminum blade.  I have never had a student go through the motion as the aluminum got nastier and the power being fed got harder.  To me it is just a budget thing, I can replicate intent with a decent training partner, I don't need electricity.  I think it is a nice tool but not hundreds of dollars nice.



Agreed on the intent.   That is such a crucial part of training, otherwise you end up playing patty-cake.  When we do knife tapping, we walk out with bruises all over our arms, even with forearm padding at times.  It's not really possible to create the stress of a live blade in training, but you do have to train in such a way that you are, at the very least, working with full speed and power.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 16, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Your comments are not unusual.  First of all, tapping against someone who knows you are going to tap is all but impossible.  Grand Tuhon Gaje is fond of saying "no one will tap your knife".  Tuhon Waid echos this all the time.  What they mean is that we are never going to allow someone to tap us, because we know it is coming.  If I attack you on a #5 thrust, and I see you start to move towards the tap, I will simply cut out and move to my next thrust.  And, because you have no choice except to honor my attack, my action towards the next thrust in my sequence will be faster than your reaction to the fact that have moved on to another attack.  Long story short, you are not tapping against someone who knows the knife.  You must control the range, and pray to God you see the knife coming.
> 
> Secondly, remember that knife tapping is not knife fighting.  It is a last second holy crap technique when other things have already gone bad.  Simply put, if you find yourself having to tap, you have screwed up big time.  You either didn't see it coming in time, didn't execute footwork, or didn't attack yourself when you saw that it was officially "on".  Either way, you have screwed the pooch at that point, and you are now stuck having to make the best of a really bad situation, aka knife tapping.
> 
> Finally, remember that the knife tap is supposed to be an attack to the person's arm, not simply passing the blade.  So, the idea that you are going to execute more than one or two taps in a row is a misunderstanding of thinking that drilling knife tapping is the same thing as real world empty hand versus knife.  You drill a bunch of attacks in sequence so that you can get reps of training, but that is not how it is going to be done.


This.

One objection I have to the way I've seen this sort of drill taught is that the rationale behind it often isn't explained. Students learn these sequences of tapping & passing that can be cycled through for a long time (either knife vs. knife or empty hand vs. knife) and there's the temptation to think that they could realistically fight or spar this way - staying in close while countering cut after cut. Realistically, if you're remaining at that range while a continuous sequence of attacks are being thrown with the knife, then one or both combatants will be sliced up in very short order.

To my mind, the proper function behind these exercises for the defender* is to get lots and lots and lots of repetitions practicing that "last second holy crap" (as you so accurately put it) defense so that if the moment ever occurs where it is necessary you have a chance of deflecting one or two attacks just long enough to disengage, deploy your own weapon, or get control of the opponent's weapon arm.

*(I have learned versions where the drill is primarily for the attacker rather than the defender - the knife wielder is just repetitively drilling methods of countering the deflections and clearing obstructions.)


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## Charlemagne (Aug 16, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This.
> 
> One objection I have to the way I've seen this sort of drill taught is that the rationale behind it often isn't explained. Students learn these sequences of tapping & passing that can be cycled through for a long time (either knife vs. knife or empty hand vs. knife) and there's the temptation to think that they could realistically fight or spar this way - staying in close while countering cut after cut. Realistically, if you're remaining at that range while a continuous sequence of attacks are being thrown with the knife, then one or both combatants will be sliced up in very short order.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your comments.  In regards to your last point, that is true.  There are certainly times when a knife tapping drill is about the person on offense rather than the person on counter-offense.  Learning how to beat tapping and overcome barriers that someone might put in your way is an important thing, and drills like that teach this attribute.  In addition, I am using the term "counter-offense" very deliberately. As I mentioned before, tapping should be an attack to the opposing person's arm whenever possible.  The attitude I like to have is "_how dare you attack me?_"  This puts me in the mindset of wanting to punish them for doing so.  This will not always be possible obviously, but thinking and executing your tapping as an attack is absolutely important.  

Real disarms as they are often taught is highly unlikely, but I have seen people drop the knife simply because someone really hammered them when performing a tap.  Trapping, locking, etc. are also possible, but not if you can't perform the tap properly.


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## Danny T (Aug 16, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Thanks for your comments.  In regards to your last point, that is true.  There are certainly times when a knife tapping drill is about the person on offense rather than the person on counter-offense.  Learning how to beat tapping and overcome barriers that someone might put in your way is an important thing, and drills like that teach this attribute.  In addition, I am using the term "counter-offense" very deliberately. As I mentioned before, tapping should be an attack to the opposing person's arm whenever possible.  The attitude I like to have is "_how dare you attack me?_"  This puts me in the mindset of wanting to punish them for doing so.  This will not always be possible obviously, but thinking and executing your tapping as an attack is absolutely important.
> 
> Real disarms as they are often taught is highly unlikely, but I have seen people drop the knife simply because someone really hammered them when performing a tap.  Trapping, locking, etc. are also possible, but not if you can't perform the tap properly.


Tapping Drill is important for the attacker as well...Absolutely.
I move he hurts; he moves he hurts.

For the most part disarms happen not because of doing a disarm but because of being in the proper position as I attack the disarm simply happens.


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