# Why the hate between TMA and MMA?



## Jedmus

I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.

My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.

What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.


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## Headhunter

Oh dear this is going to turn into one of those threads


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## Tez3

Jedmus said:


> I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.
> 
> My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.
> 
> What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.



While you have seen it on forums it's something we try not to encourage on this one. The rule is no style bashing.
Starting another thread which has people at loggerheads doesn't do anything for anyone. I speak as someone who does both MMA and TMA. I'm not willing to enter into arguments about it quite frankly. Headhunter is quite correct when he says it will turn into one of _those_ threads, I'm off for popcorn and will see how long it takes before this thread goes tits up.


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## oaktree

Not really hate, more of difference of opinions regarding training and opinions of what self defense. Ever since UFC came out there has been many discussions on various forums about tma and mma. There really isn't anything new to it and will keep occurring.


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## jobo

Jedmus said:


> I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.
> 
> My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.
> 
> What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.


its human nature once they have something to devide them, they start attacking the others thing. religion,politics football, different towns, states countries. Anything will do. The two sides can be summed up be, tma is completely ineffective, v mma is full of phycotic thugs that like hurting people. When the truth is, they have. Far more in common that they have differences. Then there is aikido and win Chun, even the tma lot pick on them. But then  chunners pick on other chunners. In fact there is no hate like chunners have for another style of chun


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## Kung Fu Wang

Jedmus said:


> hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, ...


I have requested all my students to test their skill in the MMA gym. They come back and discuss the situation with me. I then give them some suggestion and solution.

When you are young, you should test your MA skill against as many different styles as possible. MMA gym is a good place for that.


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## Bill Mattocks

Everyone wants to train in the 'best' system.  When they find a system they like, they find reasons to bash other systems.  I suppose it's nature.  And it doesn't matter what kind of system is being bashed or lauded; it's just the way people can be sometimes.

I think most of it is from people who aren't that well-versed in their own systems.  Serious martial artists who have been training for many years tend to have a great deal more respect for each other, I think.

In the dojo where I train, nobody puts down any other styles out there.  We are martial artists.  We train.  We're interested in what we're doing.  If somebody brings something in from another style or another dojo, and it works, hey, we'll use it, why not?  If it doesn't, it doesn't, but that doesn't mean the style or the technique is no good.  Maybe we weren't shown it properly.

I would suggest that anyone interested in comparing styles with the aim of putting someone else's style down consider first that they themselves are probably not all that and a bag of chips, and second that not every person who trains wants to do the same things.  _"I can run ten miles and kill five guys and not even be out of breath!"_  Yeah, kid, that's great.  I am 56 years old.  I won't run except to the bathroom unless I'm being chased.  Kill five guys?  Yeah, my morning breath can do that.  Go away, I have to scratch some itchy spots.


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## Tony Dismukes

In any group, the most obnoxious folks tend to be the loudest. Most TMA folks don't hate MMA/Kickboxing/BJJ and most  and most MMA/Kickboxing/BJJ folks don't hate TMAs.

(On a side note, no one even agrees on what a "TMA" is. Typically arts like TKD get lumped into the TMA category, while BJJ and Muay Thai do not - even though BJJ and Muay Thai are both older than TKD.)

Lots of people, including some of us on this forum (myself included) and some professional MMA fighters, train on both sides of the fence.

For those who do argue about the subject, there are a few likely causes.

Some people have a lot of ego invested in whatever system  they train and want the emotional reassurance of feeling like their art provides all the answers they will ever need.

Some people have strong opinions about a certain approach to training (sparring vs no sparring, competition vs no competition, etc) and the MMA vs TMA arguments are just a proxy for disagreements on those issues.

Some people on the MMA side have only experienced crappy, McDojo-style "TMAs" and believe that is all there is on the TMA side.

Some people on the TMA side have bought into nonsense from their instructors about how their art is so deadly it can't used in MMA because they would be snapping people's necks left and right.

Some people are just fanboys and don't even train, but still want to pontificate about how their preferred system is the best.


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## gerardbu07059

Do not understand the thinking behind this. . Great  mma practicioners and tma practicioners never put down tma since mma is based in a diverse skills of tma styles and techniques. What is better a ballet dancer, a jass dancer or a ballroom  dancer?.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Buka

I haven't really seen much of it in real life. It's seems to be a staple online, though.


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## Xue Sheng

Jedmus said:


> I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.
> 
> My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.
> 
> What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.



I have no idea and to be honest I have only run into it on web forums. I have not run into it in the real world


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## Steve

I think that there's an important distinction to be made between "hate" and what are often just fundamental differences of opinion.  Saying someone's just a "hater" is a way to dismiss critical feedback.  In other words, people aren't usually "haters."  They're just called that so their opinions can be dismissed out of hand.

Example: 
A:  "My MA is the bee's knees.  Everyone's talking about it down at the local five and dime." 
B:  "You can't use uncooked pasta as a weapon.  That's just... no.  That's not okay.  No."
A:  "You're just a hater."

It's a shame when that happens, because it creates a cascading effect similar to the emotional wake that follows a divorce.  When a couple gets a divorce, the friends get divorced, too.  In the same way, when someone declares their opinion to be The Opinion and dismisses anyone who disagrees as a hater, people feel like they need to pick a side.  We see it over and over around here.


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## Hanzou

Jedmus said:


> I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.
> 
> My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.
> 
> What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.



The "hate" stems from practitioners of certain styles who make silly excuses for why their system of preference doesn't appear in NHB/MMA contests. For better or worse, MMA's explosion in popularity forced people to question the effectiveness of a variety of martial arts. The martial arts that rose to the occasion have generally earned respect among the MMA crowd, while those arts that continue to make up nonsensical excuses continue to be ridiculed and dwindle away.

What people fail to realize is the MMA craze that emerged after the first UFC was the exact thing that Bruce Lee predicted would happen way back in the early 70's when he began to blend systems together and point out the ineffectiveness of many traditional methods.

Personally, I feel that the pressure from MMA has made the martial arts better as a whole. Many phoney MAs are dying out because people prefer the effectiveness of MMA-based martial arts instead of getting taken for a ride by charlatans who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

From my standpoint as a practitioner of Bjj, I appreciate the fact that when Bjj starts getting too showy or fancy, there's always a MMA guy waiting on the sidelines to punch us in the face and bring us back down to Earth.


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## Midnight-shadow

It's funny, I was just now having a debate with someone on youtube (I know, I'm ashamed of it myself) about MMA vs TMA, where the other person was pretty much saying that TMA is useless because they spend their time practising forms instead of fighting a real opponent. I pointed out that the basic forms I practice in my TMA system are no different than the solo drills MMA fighters practice. I've seen plenty of MMA fighters walking backwards and forwards throwing basic punches as a solo drill, and guess what my first form consists of? Walking backwards and forwards throwing basic punches. They are the same. 

Unfortunately I feel that a lot of MMA fighters watch the movies and the Wushu competitions and think that those accurately represent TMA forms, when they don't in the slightest. It's like watching a James Bond movie and thinking that is what being in an intelligence service is all about....


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## Hanzou

Midnight-shadow said:


> It's funny, I was just now having a debate with someone on youtube (I know, I'm ashamed of it myself) about MMA vs TMA, where the other person was pretty much saying that TMA is useless because they spend their time practising forms instead of fighting a real opponent. I pointed out that the basic forms I practice in my TMA system are no different than the solo drills MMA fighters practice. I've seen plenty of MMA fighters walking backwards and forwards throwing basic punches as a solo drill, and guess what my first form consists of? Walking backwards and forwards throwing basic punches. They are the same.
> 
> Unfortunately I feel that a lot of MMA fighters watch the movies and the Wushu competitions and think that those accurately represent TMA forms, when they don't in the slightest. It's like watching a James Bond movie and thinking that is what being in an intelligence service is all about....



Actually solo drills are quite a bit different from kata. If you look at Kung Fu or Karate in their sparring/fighting form, it bares little resemblance to the kata which has far more expressive movements.

On the other hand, the solo drills you find in MMA, Boxing, Judo, Muay Thai, Bjj, and other systems are highly reminiscent of the fighting form of those systems. For example, when I'm doing hip escape drills, they identical to the actual hip escape I'd be using while rolling/sparring in Bjj.


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## Midnight-shadow

Hanzou said:


> Actually solo drills are quite a bit different from kata. If you look at Kung Fu or Karate in their sparring/fighting form, it bares little resemblance to the kata which has far more expressive movements.
> 
> On the other hand, the solo drills you find in MMA, Boxing, Judo, Muay Thai, Bjj, and other systems are highly reminiscent of the fighting form of those systems. For example, when I'm doing hip escape drills, they identical to the actual hip escape I'd be using while rolling/sparring in Bjj.



That entirely depends on the style and the form/kata in question. When I practice my forms I use the same type of power-generation, breathing and stances that I use when sparring.


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## Hanzou

Midnight-shadow said:


> That entirely depends on the style and the form/kata in question. When I practice my forms I use the same type of power-generation, breathing and stances that I use when sparring.



That's all fine and dandy, but you can't make the argument that kata and solo drills are similar just because your particular style does it. The vast majority of traditional styles DON'T do it, and perform kata that bear little resemblance to their fighting forms.


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## Headhunter

And now it begins


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## Kung Fu Wang

The term TMA may mean that you don't have intention to create/mix something from other MA systems. The following short form is not traditional but modern creation.

Will you call yourself a TMA guy or MMA guy if you are a wrestler (TMA), but you also use/mix striking skill from other TMA styles? IMO, if you do, you are a MMA guy yourself.


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## Ironbear24

Tony Dismukes said:


> (On a side note, no one even agrees on what a "TMA" is. Typically arts like TKD get lumped into the TMA category, while BJJ and Muay Thai do not - even though BJJ and Muay Thai are both older than TKD.)



Pretty much this. The terms are so arbitrary and stupid that we may as well abandon them.


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## Midnight-shadow

Ironbear24 said:


> Pretty much this. The terms are so arbitrary and stupid that we may as well abandon them.



In the eyes of most MMA fighters, anything that isn't meta or mainstream in the pro fighting scene is considered TMA and therefore rubbish. It's quite hilarious actually when they claim arts like Muay Thai are modern fighting arts when they clearly have no idea where those arts originated from.


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## Tony Dismukes

Midnight-shadow said:


> In the eyes of most MMA fighters, anything that isn't meta or mainstream in the pro fighting scene is considered TMA and therefore rubbish. It's quite hilarious actually when they claim arts like Muay Thai are modern fighting arts when they clearly have no idea where those arts originated from.


I don't believe I've encountered any MMA fighter claiming that Muay Thai is a particularly "modern" system. Who have you seen making that claim?


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## Midnight-shadow

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't believe I've encountered any MMA fighter claiming that Muay Thai is a particularly "modern" system. Who have you seen making that claim?



Idiots on youtube. I know, I spend far too much time on there which is probably bad for my sanity.


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## Tony Dismukes

Midnight-shadow said:


> Idiots on youtube. I know, I spend far too much time on there which is probably bad for my sanity.


Ah ... you said MMA fighters, I think you meant uneducated MMA fanboys.


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## Jedmus

Thanks for all the replies everyone, by the sounds of it it's just people (from both sides) wanting to believe their art is superior. I understand this is likely the minority of people though. Also, I'm glad this got a good response rather than more people just throwing their opinions around


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## Paul_D

Jedmus said:


> What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight.


The clue to the answer is in your own post.  People say something is “ineffective”.   What you have to say is that a) is ineffective in scenario 1.  The problem is that people fail to understand this, and assume if something fails under 1) scenario it fails under all scenarios.

e.g.
Craig does Krav Maga,  He knows that kicking men in the bollocks works.  He knows because he has done it in training and in “the street”.  Craig decides to become an MMA fighter.  Three years later Craig has record on no wins, no losses, and 17 disqualifications.  Craig cannot understand why he isn’t UFC Champ yet.  

Or you have the opposite problem, where people think that because what they do works in there scenario, it is effective full stop. 

e.g.
Billy is an MMA fan and trains at his local MMA gym.  He knows that triangle chokes work.  He knows this because he does them every week in training and his partners tap out.  They work, he knows they work, end of conversation as far as Billy is concerned.  Sarah is an SD instructor.  She knows that if Billy tries to triangle choke someone out side the Chip Shop on a Friday night the guys mates will stomp Billy’s head flat. 

Sarah explains therefore that whilst triangle chokes are effective in scenario a) (billy’s training) they are ineffective n scenario b) (outside the chip shop).  Billy is unable to compute.  He knows they work, he does them every week and his partners tap because they work.  Therefore they will work in scenario a) all the way though to scenario z), and nothing Sarah or anyone else tells Billy will convince him otherwise.


Everything “works” and everything is effective, in the right context.  But effectiveness can never be divorced from the criteria being used to judge its effectiveness.  The problem is that some people cannot and will not ever understand that.


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## jobo

Paul_D said:


> The clue to the answer is in your own post.  People say something is “ineffective”.   What you have to say is that a) is ineffective in scenario 1.  The problem is that people fail to understand this, and assume if something fails under 1) scenario it fails under all scenarios.
> 
> e.g.
> Craig does Krav Maga,  He knows that kicking men in the bollocks works.  He knows because he has done it in training and in “the street”.  Craig decides to become an MMA fighter.  Three years later Craig has record on no wins, no losses, and 17 disqualifications.  Craig cannot understand why he isn’t UFC Champ yet.
> 
> Or you have the opposite problem, where people think that because what they do works in there scenario, it is effective full stop.
> 
> e.g.
> Billy is an MMA fan and trains at his local MMA gym.  He knows that triangle chokes work.  He knows this because he does them every week in training and his partners tap out.  They work, he knows they work, end of conversation as far as Billy is concerned.  Sarah is an SD instructor.  She knows that if Billy tries to triangle choke someone out side the Chip Shop on a Friday night the guys mates will stomp Billy’s head flat.
> 
> Sarah explains therefore that whilst triangle chokes are effective in scenario a) (billy’s training) they are ineffective n scenario b) (outside the chip shop).  Billy is unable to compute.  He knows they work, he does them every week and his partners tap because they work.  Therefore they will work in scenario a) all the way though to scenario z), and nothing Sarah or anyone else tells Billy will convince him otherwise.
> 
> 
> Everything “works” and everything is effective, in the right context.  But effectiveness can never be divorced from the criteria being used to judge its effectiveness.  The problem is that some people cannot and will not ever understand that.


agree, its,much the same with bjj take down, do that to some one on the street, and you might find they kick you in the head very hard, and then continue kicking you, you don't get up to have another go


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## Tez3

jobo said:


> agree, its,much the same with bjj take down, do that to some one on the street, and you might find they kick you in the head very hard, and then continue kicking you, you don't get up to have another go



Takedowns can be successful 'on the street'... when they are done by police officers ( the operative words is officers though not an officer on their own unless there is only the person being arrested present) who are arresting someone who refuses to stand still.



Paul_D said:


> Craig does Krav Maga, He knows that kicking men in the bollocks works. He knows because he has done it in training and in “the street”. Craig decides to become an MMA fighter. Three years later Craig has record on no wins, no losses, and 17 disqualifications. Craig cannot understand why he isn’t UFC Champ yet.



and there's another lesson to be learnt here, if you want to be an MMA fighter you go to an MMA gym and train properly, a good coach would have stopped bad habits such as kicking men in the nuts. No promoter in the UK would take a fighter on their show who had more than two or three disqualifications so the moral of the story is learn your trade properly.

A rear naked choke put on with one arm ( your arm around their neck with your hand grasping the back of your own neck), as taught in riot control in the military works ( I didn't say this out loud btw) well everywhere, using the person's body as a shield is good, don't use your dominant arm, leave that for your weapon of choice. It works, trust me.


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## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> The clue to the answer is in your own post.  People say something is “ineffective”.   What you have to say is that a) is ineffective in scenario 1.  The problem is that people fail to understand this, and assume if something fails under 1) scenario it fails under all scenarios.
> 
> e.g.
> Craig does Krav Maga,  He knows that kicking men in the bollocks works.  He knows because he has done it in training and in “the street”.  Craig decides to become an MMA fighter.  Three years later Craig has record on no wins, no losses, and 17 disqualifications.  Craig cannot understand why he isn’t UFC Champ yet.
> 
> Or you have the opposite problem, where people think that because what they do works in there scenario, it is effective full stop.
> 
> e.g.
> Billy is an MMA fan and trains at his local MMA gym.  He knows that triangle chokes work.  He knows this because he does them every week in training and his partners tap out.  They work, he knows they work, end of conversation as far as Billy is concerned.  Sarah is an SD instructor.  She knows that if Billy tries to triangle choke someone out side the Chip Shop on a Friday night the guys mates will stomp Billy’s head flat.
> 
> Sarah explains therefore that whilst triangle chokes are effective in scenario a) (billy’s training) they are ineffective n scenario b) (outside the chip shop).  Billy is unable to compute.  He knows they work, he does them every week and his partners tap because they work.  Therefore they will work in scenario a) all the way though to scenario z), and nothing Sarah or anyone else tells Billy will convince him otherwise.
> 
> 
> Everything “works” and everything is effective, in the right context.  But effectiveness can never be divorced from the criteria being used to judge its effectiveness.  The problem is that some people cannot and will not ever understand that.



If someone kicked me in the nuts at the chip shop. why don't my friends stomp his head flat?


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## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> If someone kicked me in the nuts at the chip shop. why don't my friends stomp his head flat?


Because you don't have any.


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## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> Because you don't have any.



Snap.


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## Steve

You're friends don't train self defense, so they wouldn't know how.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> You're friends don't train self defense, so they wouldn't know how.


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## JowGaWolf

Buka said:


> I haven't really seen much of it in real life. It's seems to be a staple online, though.


Same here. I think the argument is more common among TMA and MMA fan boys.  I've yet to meet some who trains MMA and voices the same perception.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> goes tits up


That's a new piece of British idiom for me.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I haven't really seen much of it in real life. It's seems to be a staple online, though.


Agreed. The times I've ended up in a group (outside MA, usually) with someone who trained/competed in MMA, we had more in common than most of the rest of the group. Never had a problem with folks from another style, approach, or camp, except online.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I think that there's an important distinction to be made between "hate" and what are often just fundamental differences of opinion.  Saying someone's just a "hater" is a way to dismiss critical feedback.  In other words, people aren't usually "haters."  They're just called that so their opinions can be dismissed out of hand.
> 
> Example:
> A:  "My MA is the bee's knees.  Everyone's talking about it down at the local five and dime."
> B:  "You can't use uncooked pasta as a weapon.  That's just... no.  That's not okay.  No."
> A:  "You're just a hater."
> 
> It's a shame when that happens, because it creates a cascading effect similar to the emotional wake that follows a divorce.  When a couple gets a divorce, the friends get divorced, too.  In the same way, when someone declares their opinion to be The Opinion and dismisses anyone who disagrees as a hater, people feel like they need to pick a side.  We see it over and over around here.


I think Steve and I are a good example of another part of this. I don't think we disagree nearly as much as it looks like in discussions. We have some fundamental differences of opinion, but they are not major differences, and there's far more we agree on. In a forum, we look diametrically opposed. Sit us together, and we'd have a lot to disagree on, and a lot to agree on. We might even step on the mats to compare techniques, or even to try our skills against each other (I'm betting Steve wins that one). And it would all be with respect - a respect that doesn't show up as clearly on a forum.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> That's all fine and dandy, but you can't make the argument that kata and solo drills are similar just because your particular style does it. The vast majority of traditional styles DON'T do it, and perform kata that bear little resemblance to their fighting forms.


And you can't make the argument that they are different just because a specific style (or several) don't. The forms I've trained in, taught, and developed, used the same movement and power generation as the application.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The term TMA may mean that you don't have intention to create/mix something from other MA systems. The following short form is not traditional but modern creation.
> 
> Will you call yourself a TMA guy or MMA guy if you are a wrestler (TMA), but you also use/mix striking skill from other TMA styles? IMO, if you do, you are a MMA guy yourself.


I'm not sure I agree with that definition. I consider myself TMA, though I borrow movements freely. That's how our art was created, and pretty much how all arts formed.


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## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> And you can't make the argument that they are different just because a specific style (or several) don't. The forms I've trained in, taught, and developed, used the same movement and power generation as the application.



I have yet to see a traditional Karate or Kung Fu system that performs kata/forms the way you describe. What system are you talking about in particular?


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I have yet to see a traditional Karate or Kung Fu system that performs kata/forms the way you describe. What system are you talking about in particular?


My brief training in Shotokan, some cross-training with some Karate students .... I don't remember their style, but it was a couple of Karate students, and the forms found in NGA.


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## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> If someone kicked me in the nuts at the chip shop. why don't my friends stomp his head flat?





Paul_D said:


> Because you don't have any.



Nuts or friends?


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## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> My brief training in Shotokan, some cross-training with some Karate students .... I don't remember their style, but it was a couple of Karate students, and the forms found in NGA.



Shotokan? Almost none of Shotokan's kata appear in their sparring/fighting form. At best, Shotokan's fighting form resembles kickboxing.


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## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> And you can't make the argument that they are different just because a specific style (or several) don't. The forms I've trained in, taught, and developed, used the same movement and power generation as the application.


 Same here.  The only difference between my power generation in form and power generation in application is that I pull a lot of power off the application of that power so I don't knock my sparring partners out.  In the form I can throw as much power as I want without consequence of having my fist explode (aka busting my knuckles) from hitting something that's harder than my fist.  If anything, I would think students would have the tendency to mess up driving the power in application because they feel that they need to force the power in an effort to try to hit hard.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think most of it is from people who aren't that well-versed in their own systems.  Serious martial artists who have been training for many years tend to have a great deal more respect for each other, I think.



I agree with this statement.


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## Jenna

Jedmus said:


> I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.
> 
> My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.
> 
> What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.


I wonder it is because people like to think they are, and but some time fear they are not.. backing the winning team.. where "team" represent your art, your thing, your position, your party, your side or favourite, your what ever??

1. Is true right that where you are on the de facto winning team you have not anything to prove nor to argue, well unless you lack magnanimity, yes?

2. Is only where you are admit self-doubt that your team is the winning team, that there is need to elevate your position and one way to feel elevation of your position is to negate, decry, degrade or seek to invalidate the other thing, the opposing thing.. what appear as hate I would wonder could this be overzealous or fanatical debasing of that opposing thing for this reason?? cannot be sure.. 

You know we see this zealotry and debasing of the opposing thing in most field of human endeavour, yes?? is not just martial arts and but any interest, hobby, among academics even notable scientists, celebrity and fans of celebrity, among proselytes of religions and parties, or nationalists across and within borders.. what ever.. is wide spread human practice.. martial artists are susceptible as any one else??


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Shotokan? Almost none of Shotokan's kata appear in their sparring/fighting form. At best, Shotokan's fighting form resembles kickboxing.


It may be that my instructor taught them differently. As I said, my time in Shotokan was brief. The training I received in forms focused on movements that were relatively similar to movements we used in application. What was in the forms was more genericized (movements applicable to several situations) and rigidly controlled (emphasizing a very specific movement, rather than practicing across a range). I would compare it to when I'm working on a specific issue with a punch, for instance. I recently had a shoulder injury (last year), that led me to some bad habits on my left side, especially with any hooking punch. To fix it, I would spend time on the heavy bag repeating an exact punch over and over, with little power behind it, at a controlled speed. It was quite a bit like working a movement from a form, IMO. I do a lot of the same thing with many of my techniques when I am in a hotel room, practicing a single technique or a series of techniques over and over to examine the movement and how it would apply (or not apply) to different situations.


----------



## Buka

I don't know anything about forms. I don't know anything about Shotokan as it is today. All I know is the Shotokan guys I fought a long time ago. They didn't move anything like kickboxers, but they used to hit like jack hammers. Never liked fighting the SonsObeeches, they hurt you like there was no tomorrow. Even when you beat them.

I guess times have changed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Jenna said:


> I wonder it is because people like to think they are, and but some time fear they are not.. backing the winning team.. where "team" represent your art, your thing, your position, your party, your side or favourite, your what ever??
> 
> 1. Is true right that where you are on the de facto winning team you have not anything to prove nor to argue, well unless you lack magnanimity, yes?
> 
> 2. Is only where you are admit self-doubt that your team is the winning team, that there is need to elevate your position and one way to feel elevation of your position is to negate, decry, degrade or seek to invalidate the other thing, the opposing thing.. what appear as hate I would wonder could this be overzealous or fanatical debasing of that opposing thing for this reason?? cannot be sure..
> 
> You know we see this zealotry and debasing of the opposing thing in most field of human endeavour, yes?? is not just martial arts and but any interest, hobby, among academics even notable scientists, celebrity and fans of celebrity, among proselytes of religions and parties, or nationalists across and within borders.. what ever.. is wide spread human practice.. martial artists are susceptible as any one else??


I'd argue that for some folks, their personal insecurity may lead them to this kind of behavior, even if their art/system/etc. is on solid ground. They won't acknowledge the value of another method, perhaps because they view that as degrading what they do, even if it does not actually do so.

I think there's also an element of what I refer to in management training as "must be best or is awful". This is where there's some arguably objective "best", and the assumption becomes that anything less is simply unworthy, regardless of how good it is. This comes up a lot in the competition training discussion. It can be reasonably argued that training with outside competition provides an advantage over identical training without it. (There is an argument to the contrary, which is valid, but carries less weight.) Now, I've seen arguments become entirely binary about this, wherein it is apparently argued that training without competition is inherently weak. Note that I didn't say "weaker", which would be a defensible position. To me, this binary approach would be like discovering that a specific type of bicep curl is more effective than other types, then arguing that all other types are crap, even though they produce reasonable results. It also misses the issue of fitness of approach (not everyone is interested in training at the level required to compete, nor take the physical punishment inherent in some competition). This is similar to the "MMA or TMA" debate, in that it often includes people saying one is "right" and the other is "wrong", without recognizing gradations between those points.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Buka said:


> I don't know anything about forms. I don't know anything about Shotokan as it is today. All I know is the Shotokan guys I fought a long time ago. They didn't move anything like kickboxers, but they used to hit like jack hammers. Never liked fighting the SonsObeeches, they hurt you like there was no tomorrow. Even when you beat them.
> 
> I guess times have changed.



Ran into the same thing with a Southern white crane guy. He also popped back up like a weeble if you knocked him down. And if he could not get up immediately the flurry of kicks and punches that came t you from the ground was an amazing (as well as painful) thing to witness/experience.

Also old school Chinese Police vs other country police (and Muay Thai) Sanda matches in China. There was one of the Chinese police guys would stand there, out of range, watching the other guy bob and weave. Then move in fast, take (and give a few hits) then move out. He would do this 3 or 4 times. The 3rd or 4th time, he would move in fast, hit, knock the other guy out...end of fight


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Jedmus said:


> I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.
> 
> My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.
> 
> What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.



Well back in the day we had matches like Judo expert vs Western Boxing and Chinese Martial Arts expert versus Russian Wrestler, the fans of each hoping their side wins and the publicity was always along the lines of "proving once and for all which was superior" but the hate really started with the Gracie family doing the challenge matches and putting up the videos humiliating their opponents who they always claimed were real experts and worthy representatives of the various other arts, they got the UFC ball rolling and that title says it all "Ultimate" Fighting, meanwhile the Martial Arts world did learn a valuable lesson those that don't have enough training in a particular kind of fighting can be outclassed by someone who can stay there and specialized in that type of fighting ( I mean those that didn't already know that) so much like racism it is often passed down... students heard their seniors mocking or talking smack about this or that other thing and adopted the same view with little question. 

Enter the era where vast portions of the population are MMA fans some of whom seek instruction in the sport which created the illusion of competition for the traditional studio, given time people will get over it, many traditional schools now offer MMA training programs and others are at least having their students work to counter methods commonly seen in MMA competition. Other arts just stick to what they been doing for centuries and shrug at the hype.


----------



## Tez3

Buka said:


> I don't know anything about forms. I don't know anything about Shotokan as it is today. All I know is the Shotokan guys I fought a long time ago. They didn't move anything like kickboxers, but they used to hit like jack hammers. Never liked fighting the SonsObeeches, they hurt you like there was no tomorrow. Even when you beat them.
> 
> I guess times have changed.



Here it was guys like Ticky Donovan, Vic Charles (Wado Ryu, one of my heroes), Eugene Coddrington ( another Wado Ryu guy) Wayne Otto, Dominique Valera. they can do kata with a purpose and fight like hell, as you say hit like jackhammers.


----------



## DanT

As a traditional martial artist, I can only provide a slightly biased opinion, but it's an opinion none the less.

TMA Fan Boy: All u mma bois cnt win against tru shoalin kong fu!

MMA Fan Boy: Come pruv it in UFC then!

TMA Fan Boy: I cnt fight in mma becuz I will kill them

MMA Fan Boy: mma is da best we take moves from BJJ and were the best

TMA Fan Boy: do u even train bro?

MMA Fan Boy: no but i watchd sum fites

TMA Fan Boy: oh yeah! I watched IP Man 2 Ip man would kill gsp

ETC.....

At the end of the day its mostly the fan boys who dont train or train one day a week who think they're the best that make the most noise. We have more similarities then differences. I have so many MMA friends. I spar them, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. At the end of the day we try to all get better together. There's this one guy on youtube, he comments on wing chun and mma videos yelling that he knows the secret wing chun, his name is mightymeatmonsta, i dont know if you guys see his comments, but he goes on and on about real wing chun and how everyone is wrong, he comments on MMA vids on how they suck, he's an embarrasment to us chunners and the funny thing is, he's a fan boy!


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> It may be that my instructor taught them differently. As I said, my time in Shotokan was brief. The training I received in forms focused on movements that were relatively similar to movements we used in application. What was in the forms was more genericized (movements applicable to several situations) and rigidly controlled (emphasizing a very specific movement, rather than practicing across a range). I would compare it to when I'm working on a specific issue with a punch, for instance. I recently had a shoulder injury (last year), that led me to some bad habits on my left side, especially with any hooking punch. To fix it, I would spend time on the heavy bag repeating an exact punch over and over, with little power behind it, at a controlled speed. It was quite a bit like working a movement from a form, IMO. I do a lot of the same thing with many of my techniques when I am in a hotel room, practicing a single technique or a series of techniques over and over to examine the movement and how it would apply (or not apply) to different situations.



Well let's use an example here;

This is one of Shotokan's basic kata;






Here are two Shotokan karateka sparring;






As you can see, little to none of the movement or technique shown in that kata is expressed in the fighting form. I'd argue that you'd be better served simply drilling kicks, and punches (boxing style) whike staying in back stance instead of doing that kata.


----------



## Tez3

I'll state the obvious, kata is for self defence techniques not sparring. We train kata Bunkai AND sparring as two different things. Sparring is a sports directed activity, kata is not.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> I'd argue that for some folks, their personal insecurity may lead them to this kind of behavior, even if their art/system/etc. is on solid ground. They won't acknowledge the value of another method, perhaps because they view that as degrading what they do, even if it does not actually do so.
> 
> I think there's also an element of what I refer to in management training as "must be best or is awful". This is where there's some arguably objective "best", and the assumption becomes that anything less is simply unworthy, regardless of how good it is. This comes up a lot in the competition training discussion. It can be reasonably argued that training with outside competition provides an advantage over identical training without it. (There is an argument to the contrary, which is valid, but carries less weight.) Now, I've seen arguments become entirely binary about this, wherein it is apparently argued that training without competition is inherently weak. Note that I didn't say "weaker", which would be a defensible position. To me, this binary approach would be like discovering that a specific type of bicep curl is more effective than other types, then arguing that all other types are crap, even though they produce reasonable results. It also misses the issue of fitness of approach (not everyone is interested in training at the level required to compete, nor take the physical punishment inherent in some competition). This is similar to the "MMA or TMA" debate, in that it often includes people saying one is "right" and the other is "wrong", without recognizing gradations between those points.


AKA the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle.

Arguing about which art or training method is "best" doesn't interest me that much. I have my opinions about what sort of training methods are more effective for which end purposes, but in the end:


Every training method is flawed in some way (at least until we develop holodeck and Matrix technology)
Different training methods are flawed in different ways, so it is useful to use various complementary forms of training to compensate for those flaws
Even most "inferior" forms of training can have some value if properly understood and applied
In addition to my current primary arts, I have trained, currently train, and will train other systems which (to my eyes) have some significant weaknesses in their training methods or curriculum. I do this because I also see some significant strengths. I'd rather spend my time mining for the gold than complaining about the dross.


----------



## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> AKA the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle.
> 
> Arguing about which art or training method is "best" doesn't interest me that much. I have my opinions about what sort of training methods are more effective for which end purposes, but in the end:
> 
> 
> Every training method is flawed in some way (at least until we develop holodeck and Matrix technology)
> Different training methods are flawed in different ways, so it is useful to use various complementary forms of training to compensate for those flaws
> Even most "inferior" forms of training can have some value if properly understood and applied
> In addition to my current primary arts, I have trained, currently train, and will train other systems which (to my eyes) have some significant weaknesses in their training methods or curriculum. I do this because I also see some significant strengths. I'd rather spend my time mining for the gold than complaining about the dross.


I appreciate your points about every training method having flaws.  This is so true, and why training can only get you so far.  In order for any training (in anything) to be effective, you have to be working toward something you will actually do for real.  It doesn't matter whether a person trains for 2 months or 20 years, if they don't apply their training, they will only get so far.


----------



## Tez3

and the next obvious remark... karate sparring doesn't look like kick boxing, kickboxing actually looks like karate sparring as it should as that's where it came from.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

To put it simply, the methodologies and goals are different.  Some have not wished to accept this and believe that one size fits all.  When that is pointed out, well, some tend to flip out rather than have a rational conversation on the methodologies, focus and goals of a particular type of training.


----------



## wingchun100

I hear about TMA being not effective...a LOT...since I practice Wing Chun, and in every MMA fight video on YouTube where one guy is said to represent Wing Chun, the dude usually gets his face pounded.

I cannot explain why most people who enter MMA tournaments with Wing Chun get demolished. All I know is I've had a couple occasions where I had to use some of the skills I've learned in real settings. They did not escalate into full-blown fights because what I used was enough to deter my would-be adversaries. So since I know first-hand it can function, I just ignore the keyboard commandos.


----------



## Tez3

wingchun100 said:


> I cannot explain why most people who enter MMA tournaments with Wing Chun get demolished.



If they are it's because no fighter in MMA is a one style fighter, all good fighters have taken techniques from as many styles as they need to.
I get rather tired of these arguments that say a particular style is no good in MMA, it's nonsense because the very name gives it away MIXED martial arts, so why do the ignorant keep going on about Wing Chun/Aikido/karate etc etc being no good? There are techniques in all these styles that work along when put into the mix, to be honest there shouldn't be much to differentiate styles when you watch a fighter. He doesn't do one style for kicks, another for strikes and yet another for takedowns, they should all be a smooth mix flowing from one move to the next, a good fighter is always a couple of moves ahead anyway.

Anyway I thought you'd like this, Sami Berik from Wing Chun ( with a very young Grant Waterman reffing)


----------



## Paul_D

Hanzou said:


> Well let's use an example here;
> 
> This is one of Shotokan's basic kata;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are two Shotokan karateka sparring;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, little to none of the movement or technique shown in that kata is expressed in the fighting form. I'd argue that you'd be better served simply drilling kicks, and punches (boxing style) whike staying in back stance instead of doing that kata.


Kata is for self defence (non consensual violence), sparring is for fighting (consensual violence) so you wouldn't expect them to look the same.


----------



## Hanzou

Paul_D said:


> Kata is for self defence (non consensual violence), sparring is for fighting (consensual violence) so you wouldn't expect them to look the same.



So now we're going to pretend that self defense has nothing to do with fighting ability?

Are we really going to act like a woman who practices kata all the time is just as capable as MMA fighters like Mckenzie Dern or Holly Holm to get a big guy off of them? 

You can have the best looking kata on the planet, but none of that is going to help when you start getting punched in the face. If you're used to fighting, and getting punched, then you have a better chance of dealing with it. If you spent your training time punching and kicking air, and thinking about Okinawan fairy tales of peasants killing Samurai with farm equipment, you're going to be in for a very long night.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Paul_D said:


> Kata is for self defence (non consensual violence), sparring is for fighting (consensual violence) so you wouldn't expect them to look the same.


Form/Kata is a solo training to "polish" your fighting skill. A groin kick, face punch combo should work in both SD and fighting.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> If they are it's because no fighter in MMA is a one style fighter, all good fighters have taken techniques from as many styles as they need to.
> I get rather tired of these arguments that say a particular style is no good in MMA, it's nonsense because the very name gives it away MIXED martial arts, so why do the ignorant keep going on about Wing Chun/Aikido/karate etc etc being no good? There are techniques in all these styles that work along when put into the mix, to be honest there shouldn't be much to differentiate styles when you watch a fighter. He doesn't do one style for kicks, another for strikes and yet another for takedowns, they should all be a smooth mix flowing from one move to the next, a good fighter is always a couple of moves ahead anyway.



Kron Gracie and Mckenzie Dern are both Bjj fighters in MMA. Kron especially makes it a point to use old school Gjj in his fights.

There's also folks like Angela Lee, Ryan Hall, and Damien Maia who are mainly doing Bjj when they're fighting.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> So now we're going to pretend that self defense has nothing to do with fighting ability?
> 
> Are we really going to act like a woman who practices kata all the time is just as capable as MMA fighters like Mckenzie Dern or Holly Holm to get a big guy off of them?
> 
> You can have the best looking kata on the planet, but none of that is going to help when you start getting punched in the face. If you're used to fighting, and getting punched, then you have a better chance of dealing with it. If you spent your training time punching and kicking air, and thinking about Okinawan fairy tales of peasants killing Samurai with farm equipment, you're going to be in for a very long night.



Bunkai has been explained to you, in detail, multiple times.  Your failure, or refusal to understand it's value in no way invalidates it's effectiveness when properly applied to training.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> Kata is for self defence (non consensual violence), sparring is for fighting (consensual violence) so you wouldn't expect them to look the same.






Kong Soo Do said:


> Bunkai has been explained to you, in detail, multiple times.  Your failure, or refusal to understand it's value in no way invalidates it's effectiveness when properly applied to training.



If it is properly applied. 

But the quote above is still wrong in pretty much every conceivable way.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> If it is properly applied.
> 
> But the quote above is still wrong in pretty much every conceivable way.



No, I'd say Paul's statement hit the nail on the head.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> No, I'd say Paul's statement hit the nail on the head.









This is kind of the crux of mma hate for tma. 

Just these effectively unsupported ideas that have no validity exept in huge leaps of complicated logic.  And statements like "i am right because black belt."

This isn't all TMA but it gets represented as a TMA mindset.


----------



## Steve

Kong Soo Do said:


> No, I'd say Paul's statement hit the nail on the head.


It's hard to keep up.  Are you saying that hitting a nail on the head is a consensual fight or was it self defense?   Did the nail have it coming?


----------



## Buka

Steve said:


> It's hard to keep up.  Are you saying that hitting a nail on the head is a consensual fight or was it self defense?   Did the nail have it coming?



Oh, sure, make me spit coffee all over my keyboard. Again.

And to anyone reading this, it is not a statement concerning anyone's thoughts in the thread, it's about Steve's word play. (Damn mess he made of my computer.)


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> This is kind of the crux of mma hate for tma.
> 
> Just these effectively unsupported ideas that have no validity exept in huge leaps of complicated logic.  And statements like "i am right because black belt."
> 
> This isn't all TMA but it gets represented as a TMA mindset.



Unsupported ideas?  No, from experience.  I don't 'spar' as you understand sparring.  I train kata/bunkai.  And I've effectively fought against armed and unarmed violent felons for nearly 30 years with such training (42 years total training).  Why?  Simply because I understand the value of such training, and how to effectively apply it.  It isn't magic.  It is simply an effective way to deal with bad guys trying to do bad things.


----------



## Headhunter

Kong Soo Do said:


> Unsupported ideas?  No, from experience.  I don't 'spar' as you understand sparring.  I train kata/bunkai.  And I've effectively fought against armed and unarmed violent felons for nearly 30 years with such training (42 years total training).  Why?  Simply because I understand the value of such training, and how to effectively apply it.  It isn't magic.  It is simply an effective way to deal with bad guys trying to do bad things.


Thing is with sparring is what if you're just training 1 on 1 with a teacher and no one else obviously you wouldn't be able to do much sparring so you'd just learn the technique. 

Personally I enjoy sparring it's fun but not necessary. I've sparred more since I retired from competing but during my 15 year career I sparred about 3 times and I had a very successful career so it's absolutely not the be all and end all that some make it out to be.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> Unsupported ideas?  No, from experience.  I don't 'spar' as you understand sparring.  I train kata/bunkai.  And I've effectively fought against armed and unarmed violent felons for nearly 30 years with such training (42 years total training).  Why?  Simply because I understand the value of such training, and how to effectively apply it.  It isn't magic.  It is simply an effective way to deal with bad guys trying to do bad things.



"I fought a bunch of guys" is almost the definition of unsupported.

I fought a dragon once.  An actual fire breathing dragon.  Can you beat that?


----------



## Steve

drop bear said:


> "I fought a bunch of guys" is almost the definition of unsupported.
> 
> I fought a dragon once.  An actual fire breathing dragon.  Can you beat that?


Whoa.  That's tough to beat.   Paul D hit a nail once.   Right on its head.  I killed a grizzly bear when I was only three.  KSD trained with hoyce gracie.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Whoa.  That's tough to beat.   Paul D hit a nail once.   Right on its head.  I killed a grizzly bear when I was only three.  KSD trained with hoyce gracie.



We should start our own super team.

"Quick there is a bomb that will go off and destroy the world.  And a dragon bear is guarding it. The only way to turn it off is hitting that nail on top of its head"






Extra points for being able to name that superhero team.


----------



## CB Jones

Hanzou said:


> Are we really going to act like a woman who practices kata all the time is just as capable as MMA fighters like Mckenzie Dern or Holly Holm to get a big guy off of them?



Are we gonna act like the average person training at a mma gym has the skill level of a professional fighter?


----------



## Hanzou

CB Jones said:


> Are we gonna act like the average person training at a mma gym has the skill level of a professional fighter?



According to Paul D, all you need is kata to be "street ready". Plenty of average people perform great looking katas.

Too bad they don't train kata at MMA gyms.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Many paths available for gaining skills to protect yourself from violence, the MMA venue offers a path the TMA schools offer their paths but its always up to the individual to walk whatever path they select and take whatever it is their learning to the point of meeting their needs, because individuals are all different and have different needs their is no one size fits all supreme path for everyone. As Soldier serving in a time of war I had specific needs before and during that time so a martial art that did not adequately teach me how to cope with well-trained enemies using a multitude of weapons in a wide variety of environments would not have worked for me even if it was something that would work great for self-defense from a civilian stand-point, that is just how it is, now I am retiring and have many injuries and I am trying to adjust to civilian life and tone down my warrior-mindset, so my needs have changed again and so to has my way of training. Just my 2 cents sure hope I didn't offend anyone by making the point that different paths of training fit different people better.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Buka said:


> I don't know anything about forms. I don't know anything about Shotokan as it is today. All I know is the Shotokan guys I fought a long time ago. They didn't move anything like kickboxers, but they used to hit like jack hammers. Never liked fighting the SonsObeeches, they hurt you like there was no tomorrow. Even when you beat them.
> 
> I guess times have changed.



Times do change, unfortunately (though for some people change is good). I've noticed that times can also change in different places at different times. I don't remember many Karate or Taekwondo schools who practiced freestyle sparring when I was younger. Where I lived, almost all the open-door martial arts schools were still practicing point-sparring (they weren't actually making any contact). Also, the competitions back then were very stylized. Karate practitioners only competed against other Karate practitioners. Judo only competed against Judo, and TKD only competed against TKD, that's just how it was. That was even up into the 1990's where I lived. But nowadays, it seems like every Karate and TKD style I see looks like kickboxing. There is a lot more contact-sparring now, with less stylized competitions occurring between different schools. I think it's good.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Headhunter said:


> Thing is with sparring is what if you're just training 1 on 1 with a teacher and no one else obviously you wouldn't be able to do much sparring so you'd just learn the technique.



Hmmm... That doesn't ring true to me at all, personally. I did a lot of 1-on-1 sparring with my instructors, and we still had plenty of time to practice our techniques. This is true for Karate (which had katas), Wing Chun (which had taolus), Jujutsu (which had no katas) and Jeet Kune Do (which had no taolus). In each of those systems I did a lot of 1-on-1 training with my teachers, and we did a ton of sparring, just in different ways.


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Hmmm... That doesn't ring true to me at all, personally. I did a lot of 1-on-1 sparring with my instructors, and we still had plenty of time to practice our techniques. This is true for Karate (which had katas), Wing Chun (which had taolus), Jujutsu (which had no katas) and Jeet Kune Do (which had no taolus). In each of those systems I did a lot of 1-on-1 training with my teachers, and we did a ton of sparring, just in different ways.


Good for you


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> But the quote above is still wrong in pretty much every conceivable way.


Your inability to understand makes you think it is wrong. As we have established many times, you are unable to understand the difference between fighting and self defence.

Hence, as long as you have a brown hole in your **** you will never understand how and why kata is intended to be used, and that is actually fine.  But what isn't fine is when you kata isn't useful for SD when you understand neither kata nor SD.


----------



## Paul_D

Hanzou said:


> According to Paul D, all you need is kata to be "street ready". Plenty of average people perform great looking katas.
> 
> Too bad they don't train kata at MMA gyms.


I write in English and without fail every time you  see something I haven't written, and don't understand what I have written.   You can't be that stupid, so you must just be being deliberately obtuse.  Where did I say you "all you need". kata?  I said kata doesn't look like sparring because it is for SD and sparring is for fighting.


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Kron Gracie and Mckenzie Dern are both Bjj fighters in MMA. Kron especially makes it a point to use old school Gjj in his fights.
> 
> There's also folks like Angela Lee, Ryan Hall, and Damien Maia who are mainly doing Bjj when they're fighting.


Don't know why you rate Mackenzie dern so high. She's a good jiu jitsu styalist but is totally unproven in mma she's 3-0 against nobodies with 2 decisions and missed weight twice. It's far to early to say if she'll be elite or not


----------



## Headhunter

Paul_D said:


> I write in English and without fail every time you  see something I haven't written, and don't understand what I have written.   You can't be that stupid, so you must just be being deliberately obtuse.  Where did I say you "all you need". kata?  I said kata doesn't look like sparring because it is for SD and sparring is for fighting.


It's people like Hanzou that make people think that all mma people hate traditional styles


----------



## Paul_D

Hanzou said:


> Are we really going to act like a woman who practices kata all the time is just as capable as MMA fighters


Why would we do that kata isn't for fighting. 

The differences have been explained to you many many times by many different people and it is clear you will never understand the difference between fighting and self defence.  That's not a problem, the problem is when you tyr to tell th me people who do understand what is and isn't useful for a given situation when you understand neither the given situation nor the tools being applied to it.


----------



## Headhunter

Paul_D said:


> Why would we do that kata isn't for fighting.
> 
> The differences have been explained to you many many times by many different people and it is clear you will never understand the difference between fighting and self defence.  That's not a problem, the problem is when you tyr to tell th me people who do understand what is and isn't useful for a given situation when you understand neither the given situation nor the tools being applied to it.



Thing is it is true no ones going to defend themselves like they do in a kata but also no ones going to fight in the exact same way they shadow box either. That's all kata is it's shadow boxing. To me it teaches you to go to different angles and not just working straight ahead on the 12 o clock line. It teaches how to go from one movement to the next using transitional stances. It reinforces your basics and makes you work a good stance to keep balance. It teaches co-ordination and fitness all important things in a fight. Also anyone can do kata and use it from any age young or old. For example you're not going to have a 70 year old with a heart problem, arthritis and a dodgy knee doing full contact sparring but they'd still be able to do kata


----------



## Headhunter

I'm on both sides of this. I'm a black belt in kenpo karate and I train Muay Thai and have trained in boxing, kickboxing and bjj and I love all of it. It's all good stuff and all helps. I like the technical approach and fluidity of karate and I like the hard style fitness of Muay Thai.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Steve said:


> Paul D hit a nail once.


I'd say he nailed it.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> "I fought a bunch of guys" is almost the definition of unsupported.
> 
> I fought a dragon once.  An actual fire breathing dragon.  Can you beat that?



Well, mine are officially documented through a L.E. agency.  If you can say the same about your dragon then sure, you got me beat.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> According to Paul D, all you need is kata to be "street ready".



And also according to me, with the caveat that bunkai is correctly understood and trained.



Hanzou said:


> Too bad they don't train kata at MMA gyms.



Not really required at MMA gyms since the focus is on sporting competitions within a defined rule set.  Just like sparring (the normal one-on-one with rules type of sparring) isn't necessary for self defense.  Two different goals with two different methodologies.  When will you understand this very simple point?


----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Hmmm... That doesn't ring true to me at all, personally. I did a lot of 1-on-1 sparring with my instructors, and we still had plenty of time to practice our techniques. This is true for Karate (which had katas), Wing Chun (which had taolus), Jujutsu (which had no katas) and Jeet Kune Do (which had no taolus). In each of those systems I did a lot of 1-on-1 training with my teachers, and we did a ton of sparring, just in different ways.


Jujutsu has waza and kata.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> Well, mine are officially documented through a L.E. agency.  If you can say the same about your dragon then sure, you got me beat.



I can say the same about my dragon. I have the documentation right here. I just cant show it to you.

Can you show me your documentation?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> I can say the same about my dragon. I have the documentation right here. I just cant show it to you.
> 
> Can you show me your documentation?



Yes I can.  Come for a visit and I'll personally drive you down to our administration building and you can sit down and view my personnel record which is public record.  It's about a foot thick and covers, in addition to other things like citations and awards, every use-of-force I've had over the last 25+ years.  

If I ever come and visit you I'll expect the same.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> Not really required at MMA gyms since the focus is on sporting competitions within a defined rule set. Just like sparring (the normal one-on-one with rules type of sparring) isn't necessary for self defense. Two different goals with two different methodologies. When will you understand this very simple point?



Ultimately when it makes any sort of sense.

Ok what I dont get. You have sports fighting. Kicking punching grappling and they have a general sort of method of training to get good at it. Sparring, fitness, skill development. Whatever. The idea being that if a person wanted to kick,punch or wrestle you you have a skill base to stop them.

Now your suggestion is that self defence is so different that you need to adopt a completely different method of preparation. That self defence will not contain kicking punching or grappling and that it will be so far removed from what you would expect in a sports fight that you could not even adapt these concepts to suit a self defence environment.

This is just discounting the tons of evidence of this preparation being used in self defence in everything from news articles to you tube to anecdotal evidence.

This is also discounting that self defence martial artists dont actually have a monopoly on self defence experience.

Instead you have to learn a method that does not seem to have any way of varifying it works at all anywhere. I mean I cant even take your ideas and try them out in the gym with my training partner unscripted because that would be sparring. (sport of course) I cant see any indication it works in self defence. Unless I have missed the news articles "woman stops rape by using bloody kata." And I ultimately have to take your word for it because I have to take your word that you have used it in fights.

If I came up with a concept so ludicrous I would get accused of trolling.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes I can.  Come for a visit and I'll personally drive you down to our administration building and you can sit down and view my personnel record which is public record.  It's about a foot thick and covers, in addition to other things like citations and awards, every use-of-force I've had over the last 25+ years.
> 
> If I ever come and visit you I'll expect the same.



Well ditto you come visit. And I will show you the absolute proof I fought a dragon. 

Untill then we will just believe both of us are telling the truth.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

IIRC, you are in Great Britain?  If so, it is a possibility as I am half-British and have family there.  Mostly London and round about there.  Not a bad idea actually as the last time I was there was in 1988 so I'm long overdue.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> IIRC, you are in Great Britain?  If so, it is a possibility as I am half-British and have family there.  Mostly London and round about there.  Not a bad idea actually as the last time I was there was in 1988 so I'm long overdue.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> Now your suggestion is that self defence is so different that you need to adopt a completely different method of preparation.



I've stated this in how many threads?  Fifty...a hundred?  Yes, different goals require different training.



drop bear said:


> That self defence will not contain kicking punching or grappling...



Who said that?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


>



Well...I was kinda close 

Well, I've always wanted to go down under anyway so who knows.


----------



## Hanzou

Paul_D said:


> I write in English and without fail every time you  see something I haven't written, and don't understand what I have written.   You can't be that stupid, so you must just be being deliberately obtuse.  Where did I say you "all you need". kata?  I said kata doesn't look like sparring because it is for SD and sparring is for fighting.



Which is saying that all you need for self defense is kata, since as you just said, kata is designed for Self Defense.

You also like to play this bizarre semantic game where somehow when two people are in a ring they're fighting, but if you get tackled in the street by some sociopath and you have to defend yourself, its not fighting. In actuality, you're fighting in both cases, because your fighting ability is part of the equation that will determine the outcome.

Which is why I brought up the MMA fighters and the kata performers. I seriously doubt that Dern or Holm have done a kata their entire lives, yet I'd put their chance of survival in an attack over some kata bunkai expert.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've stated this in how many threads?  Fifty...a hundred?  Yes, different goals require different training.
> 
> 
> 
> Who said that?



Either self defence is different to sports fighting or it isn't. You punch,kick and grapple in a sports fight.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> It's people like Hanzou that make people think that all mma people hate traditional styles



That's too bad for them, since I don't hate traditional styles.

Just like I don't hate classic cars and antique weaponry.

However if you tell me that a Model-T can perform as well as a Nissan GTR, or that a flintlock musket is equal to an AK-47, then I think you're full of crap.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> Don't know why you rate Mackenzie dern so high. She's a good jiu jitsu styalist but is totally unproven in mma she's 3-0 against nobodies with 2 decisions and missed weight twice. It's far to early to say if she'll be elite or not



Where was I rating Dern? I simply said that she is a MMA fighter who practices a singular style, and that singular style happens to be Bjj.


----------



## Hanzou

Paul_D said:


> Why would we do that kata isn't for fighting.
> 
> The differences have been explained to you many many times by many different people and it is clear you will never understand the difference between fighting and self defence.  That's not a problem, the problem is when you tyr to tell th me people who do understand what is and isn't useful for a given situation when you understand neither the given situation nor the tools being applied to it.



If you're trying to say that kata isn't designed for fighting, then I say there is a problem. Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations. Kata wasn't designed to teach you how to talk down a mugger or yell for help. Kata was designed to teach you how to fight using the techniques of the style without ready access to an instructor. So essentially some old master could teach you a kata, then you'll never see him again, and you practice and perfect what he taught you.

The problem is that performing kata isn't the most efficient methodology to teach someone how to fight. The most efficient way to develop fighting skill is actually fighting. The next most efficient method is to practice fighting. On the other hand, one of the least effective methods to develop fighting skill is drilling a bunch of archaic and esoteric techniques in the air with little to no resistance. Kata, by and large is an obsolete practice that should be regulated to mere exercise, or to physically express your art's traditions. The idea that it is a substitute for sparring or fighting is frankly nonsense.

The next problem in your argument is the belief that self defense isn't fighting. If a woman is putting a rapist in a triangle choke and choking him out, she's fighting. When I had some sociopath trying to smash my head in with a hammer, I was fighting. If myself or the woman lack *fighting* ability, she's going to get raped, and I'm going to get dead. People are going to martial arts schools to learn how to defend themselves. That translates into them wanting to know how to FIGHT. This silly separation of the two really needs to stop. Clearly, self defense encompasses a variety of things outside of martial arts, but this is a martial arts forum, and we're talking about martial arts. To say that a series of prearranged kicks, punches, and throws isn't about teaching fighting is pretty flipping dumb.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> Either self defence is different to sports fighting or it isn't. You punch,kick and grapple in a sports fight.



Ah, but let's continue that thought.  In a sport competition you punch, kick and grapple a single, unarmed opponent using a pre-arranged rule set that both abide by, in a controlled environment.  You get one or more rest breaks.  Have corner people to advise you and treat any injuries you may have sustained.  And if you've had enough you can quit and walk away.  

None of that applies to self defense.  So while you may punch, kick and grapple there exists a multitude of other more priority factors.  For example, SD training should involve the laws governing use-of-force.  SD training should cover avoidance, escape, evasion and de-escalation.  Sports training doesn't cover that as it's not used in competition.  Sports don't train for that because it doesn't apply.  SD training should be against single as well as multiple attackers.  Sports training doesn't involve multiple attackers because it's one-on-one.  SD training should cover weapons use, improvised and conventional from the perspective of you and the attacker(s).  Sports training doesn't cover that as no weapons are used in the ring.  SD training should cover that the attacker(s) aren't going to obey rules.  SD training shouldn't continually occur in a sterile, controlled environment.  As I often note, SD training should be inside a car, in an elevator, on stairs, in a bed, in an alley, between two cars etc.  None of that applies to sports training because it simply isn't applicable.  In a SD situation there are no water breaks.  No one is there to give you a pep talk.  Medical care probably isn't immediately available.  

Someone into competition doesn't focus on these things because none of it applies to their goal.  If you're a TKD or kick boxer looking to score points by kicking a certain area of an opponents body...why would you waste time drilling on fighting inside a car preventing a carjacking?  If on the other hand I want SD, why would I waste time training to put someone in an arm bar on the ground and trying to make them tap out?  Thus two different goals and two different methodologies of training.  

Someone once said that in sport, you're looking to win.  In SD, you're looking to not lose.  



Hanzou said:


> Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations. Kata wasn't designed to teach you how to talk down a mugger or yell for help. Kata was designed to teach you how to fight using the techniques of the style without ready access to an instructor. So essentially some old master could teach you a kata, then you'll never see him again, and you practice and perfect what he taught you.



That is a shallow interpretation of kata.  It is quite a bit more than what you've expressed your understanding to be.  And just as important, if not more so, is the proper understanding of bunkai.  A kata contains everything you do in the ring and quite a bit more i.e. punches, striking, kicking, grappling (standing and on the ground), joint locks/destruction, cavity pressing, throwing, sweeping etc.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> the woman lack *fighting* ability, she's going to get raped



Just no, because what you are saying is that a woman must fight the rapist and sometimes, in fact often, that's not something she can do for a number of reasons. It must be left to the woman how she deals with the situation and no blame must be attached if she decides not fighting is how she survives. The days of being killed or being battered to prove you have been raped are gone.


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Where was I rating Dern? I simply said that she is a MMA fighter who practices a singular style, and that singular style happens to be Bjj.


Yeah and the rest I've seen plenty of your posts about her


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> That's too bad for them, since I don't hate traditional styles.
> 
> Just like I don't hate classic cars and antique weaponry.
> 
> However if you tell me that a Model-T can perform as well as a Nissan GTR, or that a flintlock musket is equal to an AK-47, then I think you're full of crap.


And if someone is rude and dismissive and arrogant towards people who use a flintlock when it's what they enjoy using and get the benefits they want from it then the guys just a bit of a jerk


----------



## CB Jones

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Times do change, unfortunately (though for some people change is good). I've noticed that times can also change in different places at different times. I don't remember many Karate or Taekwondo schools who practiced freestyle sparring when I was younger. Where I lived, almost all the open-door martial arts schools were still practicing point-sparring (they weren't actually making any contact). Also, the competitions back then were very stylized. Karate practitioners only competed against other Karate practitioners. Judo only competed against Judo, and TKD only competed against TKD, that's just how it was. That was even up into the 1990's where I lived. But nowadays, it seems like every Karate and TKD style I see looks like kickboxing. There is a lot more contact-sparring now, with less stylized competitions occurring between different schools. I think it's good.



I don't know if it was just where you lived but PKC has been an open style sparing competition for 25 years and even though it is point sparring it allows a lot of contact.  USKA has been putting on open style sparring tournaments since the 1950s and allows a lot of contact.  Also in the bigger tourneys, events have point sparring and continuous (free sparring) sparring events.

And most of the schools that compete in those organizations do a lot of free sparring in training.

Too me this is part of the problem with the argument against TMA....too many times broad assumptions are made in reference to TMA based on limited sampling.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Either self defence is different to sports fighting or it isn't. You punch,kick and grapple in a sports fight.


It's not necessarily binary, DB. It's more of a Venn diagram. There's overlap between sports fighting and SD, and there are areas that are different.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> That is a shallow interpretation of kata.  It is quite a bit more than what you've expressed your understanding to be.  And just as important, if not more so, is the proper understanding of bunkai.  A kata contains everything you do in the ring and quite a bit more i.e. punches, striking, kicking, grappling (standing and on the ground), joint locks/destruction, cavity pressing, throwing, sweeping etc.



Where's the shallow interpretation of kata? You said the exact same thing I said except you added joint locks, cavity pressing, and sweeping. Whoop dee do! The main point is that kata is merely attempting to teach you how to fight in an inefficient and archaic manner.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Just no, because what you are saying is that a woman must fight the rapist and sometimes, in fact often, that's not something she can do for a number of reasons. It must be left to the woman how she deals with the situation and no blame must be attached if she decides not fighting is how she survives. The days of being killed or being battered to prove you have been raped are gone.



Nice way of taking a post out of context. I'm saying if a woman is triangle choking someone she is using fighting ability to do so. If she is attempting to fight back, and lacks fighting ability, she has a higher chance of failure. I fully understand that some women choose not to fight back.


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> If you're trying to say that kata isn't designed for fighting, then I say there is a problem. Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations. Kata wasn't designed to teach you how to talk down a mugger or yell for help. Kata was designed to teach you how to fight using the techniques of the style without ready access to an instructor. So essentially some old master could teach you a kata, then you'll never see him again, and you practice and perfect what he taught you.
> 
> The problem is that performing kata isn't the most efficient methodology to teach someone how to fight. The most efficient way to develop fighting skill is actually fighting. The next most efficient method is to practice fighting. On the other hand, one of the least effective methods to develop fighting skill is drilling a bunch of archaic and esoteric techniques in the air with little to no resistance. Kata, by and large is an obsolete practice that should be regulated to mere exercise, or to physically express your art's traditions. The idea that it is a substitute for sparring or fighting is frankly nonsense.
> 
> The next problem in your argument is the belief that self defense isn't fighting. If a woman is putting a rapist in a triangle choke and choking him out, she's fighting. When I had some sociopath trying to smash my head in with a hammer, I was fighting. If myself or the woman lack *fighting* ability, she's going to get raped, and I'm going to get dead. People are going to martial arts schools to learn how to defend themselves. That translates into them wanting to know how to FIGHT. This silly separation of the two really needs to stop. Clearly, self defense encompasses a variety of things outside of martial arts, but this is a martial arts forum, and we're talking about martial arts. To say that a series of prearranged kicks, punches, and throws isn't about teaching fighting is pretty flipping dumb.





Hanzou said:


> If you're trying to say that kata isn't designed for fighting, then I say there is a problem. Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations. Kata wasn't designed to teach you how to talk down a mugger or yell for help. Kata was designed to teach you how to fight using the techniques of the style without ready access to an instructor. So essentially some old master could teach you a kata, then you'll never see him again, and you practice and perfect what he taught you.
> 
> The problem is that performing kata isn't the most efficient methodology to teach someone how to fight. The most efficient way to develop fighting skill is actually fighting. The next most efficient method is to practice fighting. On the other hand, one of the least effective methods to develop fighting skill is drilling a bunch of archaic and esoteric techniques in the air with little to no resistance. Kata, by and large is an obsolete practice that should be regulated to mere exercise, or to physically express your art's traditions. The idea that it is a substitute for sparring or fighting is frankly nonsense.
> 
> The next problem in your argument is the belief that self defense isn't fighting. If a woman is putting a rapist in a triangle choke and choking him out, she's fighting. When I had some sociopath trying to smash my head in with a hammer, I was fighting. If myself or the woman lack *fighting* ability, she's going to get raped, and I'm going to get dead. People are going to martial arts schools to learn how to defend themselves. That translates into them wanting to know how to FIGHT. This silly separation of the two really needs to stop. Clearly, self defense encompasses a variety of things outside of martial arts, but this is a martial arts forum, and we're talking about martial arts. To say that a series of prearranged kicks, punches, and throws isn't about teaching fighting is pretty flipping dumb.



So you don't shadow box then? Or don't do drills in the air. Your coach doesn't call out combinations for you to use in shadow boxing? Because that's exactly the same as kata


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> And if someone is rude and dismissive and arrogant towards people who use a flintlock when it's what they enjoy using and get the benefits they want from it then the guys just a bit of a jerk



Perhaps people who use flintlocks shouldn't attempt to argue that their weapons are as good, if not better than modern ones.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> So you don't shadow box then? Or don't do drills in the air. Your coach doesn't call out combinations for you to use in shadow boxing? Because that's exactly the same as kata



Uh, in shadow boxing you're using jabs, hooks, uppercuts, footwork, and other movements that you would use in the ring. I have yet to see a karateka ever use the vertical punches shown in Heian Godan, or the series of hand techniques seen in Papuren.

Mike Tyson shadowboxing:






Look familiar?


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps people who use flintlocks shouldn't attempt to argue that their weapons are as good, if not better than modern ones.


Well guess what both have bullets both fire bullets both kill you if you get hit. If I get shot I'm not thinking oh at least I didn't get hit by that new gun


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Uh, in shadow boxing you're using jabs, hooks, uppercuts, footwork, and other movements that you would use in the ring. I have yet to see a karateka ever use the vertical punches shown in Heian Godan, or the series of hand techniques seen in Papuren.





Hanzou said:


> Uh, in shadow boxing you're using jabs, hooks, uppercuts, footwork, and other movements that you would use in the ring. I have yet to see a karateka ever use the vertical punches shown in Heian Godan, or the series of hand techniques seen in Papuren.


Well guess what you're wrong pretty much ever kata I've ever done has blocks punches kicks jabs hooks and uppercuts so maybe you should stop pretending you know everything and try and learn something and stop being so full of yourself just a thought


----------



## FriedRice

Kong Soo Do said:


> Ah, but let's continue that thought.  In a sport competition you punch, kick and grapple a single, unarmed opponent using a pre-arranged rule set that both abide by, in a controlled environment.



There were no DQ rules in UFC 1-4.



> You get one or more rest breaks.


 
No breaks in UFC 1-4.



> Have corner people to advise you and treat any injuries you may have sustained.



Plenty of people advise you in the streets as they're watching the fight. And UFC 1-4 had no break periods to treat injuries.



> And if you've had enough you can quit and walk away.


 
Plenty of street fights ends this way....actually, most of them do. Many people just quit or the winner stops or some bystander breaks it up..or the cops do....especially when there's a KO, usually the crowd of watchers don't allow it to go further....but most of the time, the winner stops on their own once seeing someone is KO'ed....and at worse, just gets a few extra punches in.  Pretty similar to ALL of the UFC's....and nearly identical to UFC 1-4.

Currently, there are 2,786 real fight videos, categorized into 94 types of fights; on my hard drive. Only FIVE, resulted in deaths; where the winner continued striking his KO'ed and unconscious opponent. You make it sound like it's life or death all the time or something. Want to see the screen shot as proof?


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> Well guess what you're wrong pretty much ever kata I've ever done has blocks punches kicks jabs hooks and uppercuts so maybe you should stop pretending you know everything and try and learn something and stop being so full of yourself just a thought



Yes, archaic punches, kicks from archaic stances, and uppercuts with little practical value. Is it any wonder that the majority of karate and kung fu practitioners resort to boxing/muay thai for hand techniques, footwork, and stances when they transition to MMA or other combat sports?

There's actually a pretty funny vid where a Wing Chun practitioner tries to enter MMA using WC kicks and punches, and a coach/promoter tells him that he better switch to Muay Thai or he's going to get hurt.


----------



## Headhunter

The problem is martial art movies. They see all the nonsense involve breaking 100 boards or the touch of death or cartwheel kicks and they think that's what traditional styles are all about. But in reality that stuff is very small part of them. But then the ufc fanboys see the movies and say how that doesn't work in a ring..Well yeah sure because it's not designed to fight in the ring. Look up any not combatitive martial artist and you'll see idiots saying "this guy sucks he doesn't fight ufc what's his record he sucks"


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Yes, archaic punches, kicks from archaic stances, and uppercuts with little practical value. Is it any wonder that the majority of karate and kung fu practitioners resort to boxing/muay thai for hand techniques, footwork, and stances when they transition to MMA or other combat sports?


Yes...and Muay Thai and boxers also change their stance and style because it's in the name mixed martial arts...you can't survive with just 1 style if a pure boxer entered mma he'd get destroyed, same with pure Muay Thai or pure jiu jitsu. No one fights with just 1 style everyone adds to it when they do mma but hey guess what....most people don't give a damm about mma


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> Yes...and Muay Thai and boxers also change their stance and style because it's in the name mixed martial arts...



Wrong. Boxers maintain their hand techniques and will learn kicking and grappling. Muay Thai fighters will pick up grappling, but maintain their hand techs and kicking. I'm not talking about adding something to what you already know, I'm talking about dumping your style and having to unlearn everything you were taught because it'll get you KO'd.



> you can't survive with just 1 style if a pure boxer entered mma he'd get destroyed, same with pure Muay Thai or pure jiu jitsu. No one fights with just 1 style everyone adds to it when they do mma but hey guess what....most people don't give a damm about mma



All of that is irrelevant to the overall point. The point is that all of those exotic techniques found in kata have little practical value when the poop hits the fan. I mean, I'm not seeing anyone "destroying limbs" with the Mantis Claw. How about you?


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> The problem is martial art movies. They see all the nonsense involve breaking 100 boards or the touch of death or cartwheel kicks and they think that's what traditional styles are all about. But in reality that stuff is very small part of them. But then the ufc fanboys see the movies and say how that doesn't work in a ring..Well yeah sure because it's not designed to fight in the ring. Look up any not combatitive martial artist and you'll see idiots saying "this guy sucks he doesn't fight ufc what's his record he sucks"



Laughable. So boxing works in the ring, the street, and overall fighting, yet somehow, traditional styles only work in self defense?

Perhaps it's time to simply face the reality that traditional styles aren't only designed to not fight in the ring, perhaps they're not designed for fighting period.


----------



## Steve

RTKDCMB said:


> I'd say he nailed it.


Bow chicka wow wow.


----------



## Paul_D

Hanzou said:


> Laughable. So boxing works in the ring, the street, and overall fighting, yet somehow, traditional styles only work in self defense?


Close, but no cigar.  You _almost_ had it.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> Where's the shallow interpretation of kata?



Right here:



Hanzou said:


> Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations.



That is a shallow interpretation that doesn't have the full realization of the other elements I listed or the principles and strategies incorporated into kata and extrapolated by bunkai.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> That is a shallow interpretation that doesn't have the full realization of the other elements I listed or the principles and strategies incorporated into kata and extrapolated by bunkai.



Yes, let's talk about the bunkai for a moment....

Here's the bunkai from one of my favorite kata from Shotokan; Tekki Shodan;






As much as I love this kata, the idea that you could pull off any of that bunkai against a resisting opponent is pure fantasy.

It sure looks nice though.

This one is even worse;


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Wrong. Boxers maintain their hand techniques and will learn kicking and grappling. Muay Thai fighters will pick up grappling, but maintain their hand techs and kicking. I'm not talking about adding something to what you already know, I'm talking about dumping your style and having to unlearn everything you were taught because it'll get you KO'd.
> 
> 
> 
> All of that is irrelevant to the overall point. The point is that all of those exotic techniques found in kata have little practical value when the poop hits the fan. I mean, I'm not seeing anyone "destroying limbs" with the Mantis Claw. How about you?


What exotic techniques? I've never seen any exotic techniques I've only seen basic moves that are in all styles. Just because you're to ignorant to understand doesn't mean it's useless. Maybe you should try actually learning about things instead of being so arrogant and thinking you know everything


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Headhunter said:


> The problem is martial art movies. They see all the nonsense involve breaking 100 boards or the touch of death or cartwheel kicks and they think that's what traditional styles are all about. But in reality that stuff is very small part of them. But then the ufc fanboys see the movies and say how that doesn't work in a ring..Well yeah sure because it's not designed to fight in the ring. Look up any not combatitive martial artist and you'll see idiots saying "this guy sucks he doesn't fight ufc what's his record he sucks"



Agreed.  Movies portray real martial arts rather poorly.  A prime example would be the well choreographed fight that shows rather flashy, refined motor skill movements that look really good on film yet would be just silly to do in a street fight.  Or even dangerous.  As I teach in my edged weapons classes, injury occurs alarmingly fast i.e. within just several seconds in many cases.  A real martial arts defense/response should be over in as few seconds as possible.  No dancing around.  No posturing.  No verbal chit-chat.  Just in-and-done.  It won't look pretty and in fact will/should look rather ugly and brutal because a fight is a chaotic and fluid event.  

Sporting competitions are two well conditioned athletes going toe-to-toe.  Self defense could be running away from the fight.  It could be talking your way out of the problem.  It could be getting through the door and locking it behind you quickly.  It could be the small woman using the element of surprise on an over-confident aggressor and striking/kicking a sensitive and/or vital high % area and then escaping.  It could be turning a joint lock into joint destruction to physically overcome an aggressor due to the circumstances.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> What exotic techniques? I've never seen any exotic techniques I've only seen basic moves that are in all styles. Just because you're to ignorant to understand doesn't mean it's useless. Maybe you should try actually learning about things instead of being so arrogant and thinking you know everything



I mentioned one such technique in the post;







Perhaps you should pay more attention.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> I mentioned one such technique in the post;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should pay more attention.



Again, your lack of understanding does not constitute something being useless.  Rather than saying one or more things wouldn't work against resisting opponents, perhaps you should ask if anyone has indeed used such-n-such against resisting opponents.  And then find out from them how well it worked, or not.  And then learn from the experience.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> Again, your lack of understanding does not constitute something being useless.  Rather than saying one or more things wouldn't work against resisting opponents, perhaps you should ask if anyone has indeed used such-n-such against resisting opponents.  And then find out from them how well it worked, or not.  And then learn from the experience.



Because anecdotal evidence isn't good evidence. People will lie to protect themselves and their beliefs, and I'm sure plenty of exponents of a given TMA will say that their methods work just fine, despite a stark lack of evidence to prove that they do.

The best evidence would be objective evidence. However, since exponents of such styles refuse to compete in open formats, that objective evidence will never appear. Thus, the only conclusion is that they're hiding because they don't believe what they do is effective, and they don't wish to be exposed.

With that said, a little common sense is in order; If your grappling techniques are based around catching someone's punch, as expressed in that Tekki Shodan bunkai, and you truly believe that you can actually catch someone's punch (and they'll stand there while you perform several techniques on them), you're living in a fantasy world.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Nice way of taking a post out of context. I'm saying if a woman is triangle choking someone she is using fighting ability to do so. If she is attempting to fight back, and lacks fighting ability, she has a higher chance of failure. I fully understand that some women choose not to fight back.



You should be careful about your choice of words, you should also not trivialise the subject of rape by trying to score cheap points.
Still you are doing a very good job of showing the divide between MMA and TMA with your disdain and lack of knowledge. You have turned a thread asking why there is hatred between the two into the perfect demonstration of why some MMA people rant and rave about TMA. Congratulations on turning this thread into an omnishambles.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> I mentioned one such technique in the post;


Actually, that's one of the preying mantis famous techniques. It's called "Diao Shou". If you are good at it, this move can be really fast. The WC guys also use this technique. In WC, it's called "Fu Shou".

- Your opponent right punch at your face.
- You use right hook to redirect that punch a little bit to your left.
- You then strike back with that right hook on your opponent's face.

Can this back hand strike be able to kill your opponent? May be not. It can work just as the boxing jab and use it to set up many other strikes.

I personal don't like to wait for my opponent's punch and deal with it. But I can still use it to open my opponent's boxing guard.  Similar to a downward parry, or upward comb hair, The "Diao Shou" can be used to "pull" your opponent's boxing guard apart.


----------



## Headhunter

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Actually, that's one of the preying mantis famous techniques. It's called "Diao Shou". If you are good at it, this move can be really fast. The WC guys also use this technique. In WC, it's called "Fu Shou".
> 
> - Your opponent right punch at your face.
> - You use right hook to redirect that punch a little bit to your left.
> - You then strike back with that right hook on your opponent's face.
> 
> Can this back hand strike be able to kill your opponent? May be not. It can work just as the boxing jab and use it to set up many other strikes.
> 
> I personal don't like to wait for my opponent's punch and deal with it. But I can still use it to open my opponent's boxing guard.  Similar to a downward parry, or upward comb hair, The "Diao Shou" can be used to "pull" your opponent's boxing guard apart.


Don't even bother with him he's so blinded by his own prejudice he wont even try and learn


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> The best evidence would be objective evidence. However, since exponents of such styles refuse to compete in open formats, that objective evidence will never appear.


Except that's not objective evidence of whether it works against an unprepared attacker, anyway. It's a useful method of validation, but not being able to do something against a well-trained and prepared opponent does not necessarily mean it can't be used against an aggressive attacker who isn't expecting that response. That can be easily seen in how often a single powerful jab ends an altercation in the street, and how seldom the first dozen or so jabs have much effect in a competition. Nobody I know of would argue that jabs aren't effective in a short defensive fight, even though they rarely show much immediate ability to do damage in a contest.

The same could be said of a lot of standing grappling techniques. A skilled opponent who is aware they are in a contest can avoid giving the weight commitment or arm control that make those techniques available. But in an attack, trying to get it done fast (which is often the case, as seen in many videos), an attacker does commit weight and make arm control available. He also walks into jabs that the trained guy wouldn't.


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## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> The best evidence would be objective evidence. However, since exponents of such styles refuse to compete in open formats, that objective evidence will never appear. Thus, the only conclusion is that they're hiding because they don't believe what they do is effective, and they don't wish to be exposed.



That's your own bias speaking.  And it's not factual.  And it's silly.  You can't take one type of training and automatically insert it into an artificial venue.  That's like putting a Judo player against a TKD player...who's going to win?  Well, it depends on the rules.  If the Judo player isn't allowed to grapple then I'd put my money on the TKD player.  How about a kick boxer vs. a BJJ player?  Well, if the kick boxer isn't allowed to kick and they both have to start on the ground I'd put my money on the BJJ player.  Okay, how about we take the MMA guy who has to abide by the rules of the octagon against a street fighter that doesn't have to obey the rules...and he's armed with a knife...and two of his buddies are going to jump in when the MMA guy turns his back.  Who are you going to put your money on?  How about an MMA guy, same as above against a Karate guy but the Karate guy gets to use techniques the maim, blind, break or kill because he's not bound by the rule set?  Not fair to the MMA you might say?  Well, it wouldn't be fair to the Karate guy to limit what he's learned to a narrow range and rule set that is artificial.  Plus, the Karate guy doesn't train to win, he trains to not lose/not have to fight. 

Let me ask you a question, if we were to meet in person...would you like to get into the ring with me?  You rely on your training and I rely on mine.  Simple question.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> As much as I love this kata, the idea that you could pull off any of that bunkai against a resisting opponent is pure fantasy.


This is a chicken and egg issue. If you develop your skill first. You then create your solo form to "record" your skill, that will be a different story.

Here is an example. His technique has been developed in the past 50 years (he is a 8th degree black belt in Shuai Chiao, the chairman of ACSCA). His form/Kata was created just 2 years ago.


----------



## Paul_D

Hanzou said:


> The best evidence would be objective evidence. However, since exponents of such styles refuse to compete in open formats, that objective evidence will never appear.


This is part of the problem.  The only "objective" evidence in your eyes is for something to be proven with the field of consensual/sport/fighting.  But Karate kata isn't designed to function within the realms of consensual fighting, it is designed for self defence from _non consensual_ criminal violence.

_“The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.”_

Consensual fighting and non consensual criminal violence are two _different _things_.  _So you cannot measure the effectiveness of one by testing it within the realm of the another field that it was not designed to function in, anymore than you can test the effectiveness of a screwdriver by trying to mow the lawn with it.

You don't understand the problem (why consensual fighting is different to self defence) you don't understand how to interpret the movements within karate kata and you don't understand how to apply the techniques of karate kata for SD.  There is *no part *of this discussion you understand.  Further, the only evidence you will accept is for this to be proven in a field in which a) it is not designed to function and b) has been decided by you as the only true test, despite not understanding any part of the subject.

It is perfectly understandable then that you don't, and never will 'get it'.  And this is not a problem.  You don't understand any part of the problem or the solution, and this also isn't a problem , as has been explain your inability to undestand something does not diminish it effectiveness.

But this does not mean that you should be arguing with the people that do understand the problem and do understand one solution, that their solution will not work because it is not designed to function within a completely arbitrary measure that someone, who does not understand any part of this, had decided is the only true way to prove effectiveness.

You know about BJJ, I know little, hence I don't try to tell you what does and does not work within BJJ.  You know what works, you done it, and the inability of other people to understand how it works has no bearing on its effectiveness.  What I don't get is why you continue to argue with those of us who do understand the difference between consensual fighting and SD, and do know how to interpret and apply the the techniques of karate kata, and have done so in live situations, that our solution to the problem does not work.  It work, we know it works, we do not need to prove to you it works, nor do we require you to understand how it works, nor do we need to prove its effectiveness in a completely different field that it is not designed to function in.  What we do require is that you stop arguing about a subject that understand absolutely no part of, with the people who do.

I took my son to the hospital easter weekend as his was in severe abdominal pain.  The Doctor told me they were going to rush him to theatre to perform an apomdectomy.   I did not ask the surgeon to prove his diagnosis by beating me at monopoly because I had arbitrarily decided that is the only true test of his ability to understand both the problem and the solution.  I know nothing of medicine, he does so I listen to him because he knows what he is talking about and I don't.  Now my son is recovering well and we are sat here waiting for Dr Who to start, instead of organising his funeral which is what we would have been doing if I tried to have an arguement with the Dr and tell him he was wrong because he couldn't beat me at monopoly.  This is, as idiotic as it sounds, is exactly what you are doing.

You do not understand what SD is, you do not understand how to interpret the movements of karate kata, you do not understand how to apply them to SD, and you do not understand the difference between consensual fighting and SD, so you should probably stop arguing with those of us who do, accept that you don't understand (and never will) move on, and stick to talking about the subject matter you do understand?


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

oaktree said:


> Jujutsu has waza and kata.



That's interesting you say that. I still practice Jujutsu today, but never in my life did I ever learn a Jujutsu kata. At least not the kind of "kata" everyone is refering to in this thread. So are you actually joking or being serious? Hard to tell from my perspective. I have been practicing Jujutsu for many years now, but I never once learned a Jujutsu kata. I know various schools and styles of Jujutsu exist with different variations throughout the world, but in my style, there is no kata. Actually to be really technical there is a Japanese word "kata" which means "shoulder" in my style, as in kata-gurume or shoulder throw. But the actual form/kata is missing from my style. What does a Jujutsu kata look like?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> That's interesting you say that. I still practice Jujutsu today, but never in my life did I ever learn a Jujutsu kata. At least not the kind of "kata" everyone is refering to in this thread. So are you actually joking or being serious? Hard to tell from my perspective. I have been practicing Jujutsu for many years now, but I never once learned a Jujutsu kata. I know various schools and styles of Jujutsu exist with different variations throughout the world, but in my style, there is no kata. Actually to be really technical there is a Japanese word "kata" which means "shoulder" in my style, as in katame-waza or shoulder techniques. But the actual form/kata is missing from my style. What does a Jujutsu kata look like?


There are many different kinds of Jujutsu. Daito-ryu has very stylized short forms for their techniques, for instance, which most would consider short kata. These forms consist of a specific attack sequence (starting often from a couple of steps away) and a specific response technique. They are 2-man kata, and we have remnants of them (in a less stylized version) in NGA, which is largely derived from Daito-ryu.


----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> That's interesting you say that. I still practice Jujutsu today, but never in my life did I ever learn a Jujutsu kata. At least not the kind of "kata" everyone is refering to in this thread. So are you actually joking or being serious? Hard to tell from my perspective. I have been practicing Jujutsu for many years now, but I never once learned a Jujutsu kata. I know various schools and styles of Jujutsu exist with different variations throughout the world, but in my style, there is no kata. Actually to be really technical there is a Japanese word "kata" which means "shoulder" in my style, as in kata-gurume or shoulder throw. But the actual form/kata is missing from my style. What does a Jujutsu kata look like?


When I practice Daito Ryu my teacher would make me practice by myself going through the motion as if i was actually practicing with someone. I can not speak about all jujutsu schools but definitely there are waza and depending on how you define kata.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

@Paul_D 

Glad your son is on the mend!


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## oaktree

gpseymour said:


> There are many different kinds of Jujutsu. Daito-ryu has very stylized short forms for their techniques, for instance, which most would consider short kata. These forms consist of a specific attack sequence (starting often from a couple of steps away) and a specific response technique. They are 2-man kata, and we have remnants of them (in a less stylized version) in NGA, which is largely derived from Daito-ryu.


Yes when we do are sets it is  highly ritualistic ending with the ceremonial cutting off of the head in most cases.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

gpseymour said:


> There are many different kinds of Jujutsu. Daito-ryu has very stylized short forms for their techniques, for instance, which most would consider short kata. These forms consist of a specific attack sequence (starting often from a couple of steps away) and a specific response technique. They are 2-man kata, and we have remnants of them (in a less stylized version) in NGA, which is largely derived from Daito-ryu.



That's interesting. I refer to those as 2-man drills. I view kata as being a solo form training exercise like Chinese taolu. When involving pre-set movements in action with a training partner, I think of sets or drills. But that's all good. I also would like to make a correction in what I said earlier, as my Japanese isn't that good. I said katame-waza by mistake. What I actually meant was kata-gatame or kata-gurume, in which the word "kata" means shoulder. I edited my post to fix the mistake, but you quoted me before I had a chance (lol). It's all good.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Yes, archaic punches, kicks from archaic stances, and uppercuts with little practical value. Is it any wonder that the majority of karate and kung fu practitioners resort to boxing/muay thai for hand techniques, footwork, and stances when they transition to MMA or other combat sports?


This is the general problem that "training does not match with fighting". The following 2 clips shows

1. How to "develop" a technique through partner training.






2. How to "polish" a technique by using solo form when training partner is not available.

The solo form is created after the technique has been developed. It serves as a function of "polishing" only.  IMO, if you take the approach as:

application -> form

you won't have the issue that you have just mentioned.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> That's interesting. I refer to those as 2-man drills. I view kata as being a solo form training exercise like Chinese taolu. When involving pre-set movements in action with a training partner, I think of sets or drills. But that's all good. I also would like to make a correction in what I said earlier, as my Japanese isn't that good. I said katame-waza by mistake. What I actually meant was kata-gatame or kata-gurume, in which the word "kata" means shoulder. I edited my post to fix the mistake, but you quoted me before I had a chance (lol). It's all good.


That's a difference in definition. I tend to lump anything that must be done precisely and which has a stylistic element (no resistance, etc.) and which is repeated that way by every student into the "form" category, because it serves much of the same purpose as long forms.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the general problem that "training does not match with fighting". The following 2 clips shows
> 
> 1. How to train a technique.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. How to polish technique when training partner is not available.
> 
> The solo form is created after the technique has been developed. It serves as a function of "polishing" only.  IMO, if you take the approach as:
> 
> application -> form
> 
> you won't have the issue that you have just mentioned.


I agree, in general. Some forms, however, aren't meant to teach a specific application. They are meant to force students to work on specific principles, while practicing movement related to application. Some of our short forms are like that. I refer to them as "esoteric forms", because there's a gap between their movements and application. But the principles they force are important, and are the point of the form.


----------



## Steel Accord

I don't hate modern MMA, especially now. There was a time, when I first started really training, that I did look down on them though. For me, the martial arts were more than codified systems of fighting, they were philosophies and instruments of spirituality. Modern MMA, with its focus on pure practicality and gutting of all cultural components that Jiu-Jitsu, Greco-Roman wrestling, etc. came from just seemed to be quite literally soulless. 

Again though, that's what my thinking WAS. Nowadays, while I'm not a huge fan of the televised sport of it and more just out of disinterest, I don't condemn or look down on MMA. Not everyone is me and not everyone gets into martial arts for the reasons that I do.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Except that's not objective evidence of whether it works against an unprepared attacker, anyway. It's a useful method of validation, but not being able to do something against a well-trained and prepared opponent does not necessarily mean it can't be used against an aggressive attacker who isn't expecting that response. That can be easily seen in how often a single powerful jab ends an altercation in the street, and how seldom the first dozen or so jabs have much effect in a competition. Nobody I know of would argue that jabs aren't effective in a short defensive fight, even though they rarely show much immediate ability to do damage in a contest.



It's the most objective evidence we have in a civilized society outside of having people randomly attack people on the street without warning.

Further, if you're capable of performing techniques on a well trained, aggressive opponent, you're probably likely to be able to perform that technique on a less trained aggressive opponent. For example, a set up for a triangle choke might not work on Renzo Gracie, but if I can get Renzo in a triangle, chances are pretty good I can get a triangle on someone who has never seen it before, or can recognize its set ups.

Your example of a jab ending a street altercation is a good example of exactly what I'm talking about. If you're used to taking jabs and punches to the face in competition or training, when someone punches you in the face "on the street" you have a higher chance of being unfazed by it. The same thing applies to just about every aspect of unarmed fighting.


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is a chicken and egg issue. If you develop your skill first. You then create your solo form to "record" your skill, that will be a different story.
> 
> Here is an example. His technique has been developed in the past 50 years (he is a 8th degree black belt in Shuai Chiao, the chairman of ACSCA). His form/Kata was created just 2 years ago.



Um, no it isn't. It's almost impossible to develop skill without practical experience. In other words, you learn to grapple by grappling with someone. You learn how to punch by punching someone. If you're doing nothing but punching or grappling with air, you're not developing the practical experience necessary to perform those tasks.

This is compounded within bunkai practice, because you have people performing complex series of techniques in response to nonsensical attacks. No one is going to punch you like that. There's a very slim chance you're going to catch someone's wrist when they punch. There's an even slimmer chance that you'll retain control of the wrist long enough to perform standing grappling.

None of that really applies to the vid you posted btw. If you look at the Tekki Shodan vid I posted and your vid, you should notice some pretty big differences.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Further, if you're capable of performing techniques on a well trained, aggressive opponent, you're probably likely to be able to perform that technique on a less trained aggressive opponent.


IMO, you have to develop your skill step by step. I have always believed that if you can beat up all

- elementary school kids,
- junior high school boys,
- senior high school young adults,

you have developed some dependable skill. To start from weak and move up toward strong is the key. If you get killed by Mike Tyson in your 1st boxing training, it won't do you any good.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> There's a very slim chance you're going to catch someone's wrist when they punch.


This is why I started the thread "You always attack first". I don't like to wait for my opponent to throw punches unless I just train my "defense" skill.



Hanzou said:


> None of that really applies to the vid you posted btw. If you look at the Tekki Shodan vid I posted and your vid, you should notice some pretty big differences.


Your concern is well considered by some TMA system already.

- Too many forms.
- Forms do not map to fighting.


----------



## Paul_D

Kong Soo Do said:


> @Paul_D
> 
> Glad your son is on the mend!


Thank you 

And we enjoyed Dr Who


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> That's your own bias speaking.  And it's not factual.  And it's silly.  You can't take one type of training and automatically insert it into an artificial venue.  That's like putting a Judo player against a TKD player...who's going to win?  Well, it depends on the rules.  If the Judo player isn't allowed to grapple then I'd put my money on the TKD player.  How about a kick boxer vs. a BJJ player?  Well, if the kick boxer isn't allowed to kick and they both have to start on the ground I'd put my money on the BJJ player.  Okay, how about we take the MMA guy who has to abide by the rules of the octagon against a street fighter that doesn't have to obey the rules...and he's armed with a knife...and two of his buddies are going to jump in when the MMA guy turns his back.  Who are you going to put your money on?  How about an MMA guy, same as above against a Karate guy but the Karate guy gets to use techniques the maim, blind, break or kill because he's not bound by the rule set?  Not fair to the MMA you might say?  Well, it wouldn't be fair to the Karate guy to limit what he's learned to a narrow range and rule set that is artificial.  Plus, the Karate guy doesn't train to win, he trains to not lose/not have to fight.



Except we've had exhibitions where two martial artists from different styles have fought each other, and we know their results. Kickboxers were allowed to kick, and grapplers were allowed to grapple. It's interesting how these discussions always bring up silly variations to what the actual rules in NHB/MMA competitions are. There would never be a competitive format with the rules you've described above.

One interesting thing about your karate example; It's quite difficult to maim, kill, break, or blind if you can't establish the dominant position. The person in the dominant position is far more capable of doing those things you described.



> Let me ask you a question, if we were to meet in person...would you like to get into the ring with me?  You rely on your training and I rely on mine.  Simple question.



If I were 100% I would love to. I think it would be very a good time.


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, you have to develop your skill step by step. I have always believed that if you can beat up all
> 
> - elementary school kids,
> - junior high school boys,
> - senior high school young adults,
> 
> you have developed some dependable skill. To start from weak and move up toward strong is the key. If you get killed by Mike Tyson in your 1st boxing training, it won't do you any good.



Well keep in mind, the argument here is that one set of martial artists are adept at taking down skilled and unskilled opponents. Another set is skilled at taking down only unskilled opponents. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> It's the most objective evidence we have in a civilized society outside of having people randomly attack people on the street without warning.
> 
> Further, if you're capable of performing techniques on a well trained, aggressive opponent, you're probably likely to be able to perform that technique on a less trained aggressive opponent. For example, a set up for a triangle choke might not work on Renzo Gracie, but if I can get Renzo in a triangle, chances are pretty good I can get a triangle on someone who has never seen it before, or can recognize its set ups.
> 
> Your example of a jab ending a street altercation is a good example of exactly what I'm talking about. If you're used to taking jabs and punches to the face in competition or training, when someone punches you in the face "on the street" you have a higher chance of being unfazed by it. The same thing applies to just about every aspect of unarmed fighting.


I agree with the principle, Hanzou. The issue is that it sets a very high bar - one that is not necessarily related to actual application. I don't need to be able to subdue a highly trained, highly fit, highly disciplined opponent. Someone like that is so vanishingly unlikely to attack me that I consider training for that as important as having flood insurance (I live on a mountain).

So, where do we get some reasonable evidence? We combine what evidence we do have. Some of that is anecdotal - not the best evidence, but useful if supported by other evidence, and especially so if it comes from sources that need the techniques as part of their profession (bouncers, LEO, etc.). Some of the evidence is from videos, like those you've gathered. Some is actually from sport (because that is useful information, of course). We can also use resisting partners in the dojo as part of the evidence.

Here's part of my problem with only using sport evidence, and it's a restatement of something that I said in my previous post. Just because something doesn't work in sport, that doesn't mean it doesn't work in a different scenario/context. People who are angry and unskilled make a range of mistakes you'd not expect from even a garden-variety black belt in a competition. Part of my training is to take advantage of those mistakes. That training is not terribly useful for competition, and a focus on competition can cause that type of training to be suppressed.

I have nothing against competition. If a student of mine wanted to compete, I'd suggest they find a good coach (I'm certainly not qualified for that) and give it a go. They'd need to make some adaptation (some of the stuff I mentioned above), but we have plenty of basic techniques that show up in competition, anyway, so they'd have a base to work from. I'd expect them to keep training the full range if they want to train with me. If someone came to me asking me to prepare them for competition, I'd suggest they find a program designed for that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Well keep in mind, the argument here is that one set of martial artists are adept at taking down skilled and unskilled opponents. Another set is skilled at taking down only unskilled opponents. Your mileage may vary.


That's not necessarily the point. I can take down skilled people. But not highly skilled athletes who are more familiar with the rules than I am, and who have trained only for the skills useful in that context. They are training specifically to that context, and danged well should be better at it. If they are serious about competition at any high level (regional competition, etc.), they're probably also training far more than the average non-competitor and are in better shape. Those last two bits are points of personal commitment, and have nothing to do with the art/style.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Well keep in mind, the argument here is that one set of martial artists are adept at taking down skilled and unskilled opponents. Another set is skilled at taking down only unskilled opponents. Your mileage may vary.


You (general YOU) should use

- "solo" move to take down unskilled opponents.
- "combo" moves to take down skilled opponent.

You have to start from "sole" and move into "combo".

But IMO, if your (general YOU) solo move does not work on a skilled opponent, your solo move is not good enough. Again, that's a MA paradox. 

1. If you can't take your opponent down by your single leg, your single leg is not good enough.
2. If your opponent can take you down by single leg, you are not a good wrestler.

1 and 2 are just contradict to each other.


----------



## Hanzou

Paul_D said:


> This is part of the problem.  The only "objective" evidence in your eyes is for something to be proven with the field of consensual/sport/fighting.  But Karate kata isn't designed to function within the realms of consensual fighting, it is designed for self defence from _non consensual_ criminal violence.
> 
> _“The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.”_
> 
> Consensual fighting and non consensual criminal violence are two _different _things_.  _So you cannot measure the effectiveness of one by testing it within the realm of the another field that it was not designed to function in, anymore than you can test the effectiveness of a screwdriver by trying to mow the lawn with it.
> 
> You don't understand the problem (why consensual fighting is different to self defence) you don't understand how to interpret the movements within karate kata and you don't understand how to apply the techniques of karate kata for SD.  There is *no part *of this discussion you understand.  Further, the only evidence you will accept is for this to be proven in a field in which a) it is not designed to function and b) has been decided by you as the only true test, despite not understanding any part of the subject.
> 
> It is perfectly understandable then that you don't, and never will 'get it'.  And this is not a problem.  You don't understand any part of the problem or the solution, and this also isn't a problem , as has been explain your inability to undestand something does not diminish it effectiveness.
> 
> But this does not mean that you should be arguing with the people that do understand the problem and do understand one solution, that their solution will not work because it is not designed to function within a completely arbitrary measure that someone, who does not understand any part of this, had decided is the only true way to prove effectiveness.
> 
> You know about BJJ, I know little, hence I don't try to tell you what does and does not work within BJJ.  You know what works, you done it, and the inability of other people to understand how it works has no bearing on its effectiveness.  What I don't get is why you continue to argue with those of us who do understand the difference between consensual fighting and SD, and do know how to interpret and apply the the techniques of karate kata, and have done so in live situations, that our solution to the problem does not work.  It work, we know it works, we do not need to prove to you it works, nor do we require you to understand how it works, nor do we need to prove its effectiveness in a completely different field that it is not designed to function in.  What we do require is that you stop arguing about a subject that understand absolutely no part of, with the people who do.
> 
> I took my son to the hospital easter weekend as his was in severe abdominal pain.  The Doctor told me they were going to rush him to theatre to perform an apomdectomy.   I did not ask the surgeon to prove his diagnosis by beating me at monopoly because I had arbitrarily decided that is the only true test of his ability to understand both the problem and the solution.  I know nothing of medicine, he does so I listen to him because he knows what he is talking about and I don't.  Now my son is recovering well and we are sat here waiting for Dr Who to start, instead of organising his funeral which is what we would have been doing if I tried to have an arguement with the Dr and tell him he was wrong because he couldn't beat me at monopoly.  This is, as idiotic as it sounds, is exactly what you are doing.
> 
> You do not understand what SD is, you do not understand how to interpret the movements of karate kata, you do not understand how to apply them to SD, and you do not understand the difference between consensual fighting and SD, so you should probably stop arguing with those of us who do, accept that you don't understand (and never will) move on, and stick to talking about the subject matter you do understand?



Your failure here is believing that I don't know what the difference is between SD and consensual fighting. I know exactly what the difference is. Our disagreement is YOUR belief that somehow aspects of consensual fighting doesn't pop up in SD and vice versa, and further the belief that skills that can be honed from consensual fighting cannot be used in SD, especially when it comes to the martial arts.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> That's not necessarily the point. I can take down skilled people. But not highly skilled athletes who are more familiar with the rules than I am, and who have trained only for the skills useful in that context. They are training specifically to that context, and danged well should be better at it. If they are serious about competition at any high level (regional competition, etc.), they're probably also training far more than the average non-competitor and are in better shape. Those last two bits are points of personal commitment, and have nothing to do with the art/style.



Which is all fine and dandy, but my issue with that argument is what about the people who ARE training to become martial athletes? Why are they concentrated in one set of styles, and completely avoid another set of styles? Before my injury, I taught Bjj at a MMA gym. Why aren't they learning Aikijutsu, Aikido, Praying Mantis, or even Judo?

A bit more to the overall point; There ARE people in this thread who are saying that karate and other TMAs weren't designed for competitive fighting. That's an argument I take issue with, considering that many of those arts have a history of competitive fighting that abruptly ends when the UFC emerges on the scene.


----------



## oaktree

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> That's interesting. I refer to those as 2-man drills. I view kata as being a solo form training exercise like Chinese taolu. When involving pre-set movements in action with a training partner, I think of sets or drills. But that's all good. I also would like to make a correction in what I said earlier, as my Japanese isn't that good. I said katame-waza by mistake. What I actually meant was kata-gatame or kata-gurume, in which the word "kata" means shoulder. I edited my post to fix the mistake, but you quoted me before I had a chance (lol). It's all good.


The movement is prearranged attack prearranged defense in classical Japanese arts


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> If I were 100% I would love to. I think it would be very a good time.



I'm sorry you're not 100%.

Just to make sure the premise is understood, hypothetically, you can rely on your training and I can rely on mine.  Mine incorporates firearms, kubaton (and other types of batons) and edged weapons.  In the ring I would have my HK P30SK, serrated Hawkbill and kubaton which is my normal EDC.  Is this acceptable?


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm sorry you're not 100%.



Yeah me too.



> Just to make sure the premise is understood, hypothetically, you can rely on your training and I can rely on mine.  Mine incorporates firearms, kubaton (and other types of batons) and edged weapons.  In the ring I would have my HK P30SK, serrated Hawkbill and kubaton which is my normal EDC.  Is this acceptable?



Your point is well taken (no pun intended). However, would you really consider a kung fu exponent (for example) who is trained in kicking, punching, joint locking, throws, etc. to be really at a level of disadvantage against a Bjj exponent as someone fighting unarmed against someone armed to the teeth?


----------



## JP3

Bill Mattocks said:


> Everyone wants to train in the 'best' system.  When they find a system they like, they find reasons to bash other systems.  I suppose it's nature.  And it doesn't matter what kind of system is being bashed or lauded; it's just the way people can be sometimes.
> 
> I think most of it is from people who aren't that well-versed in their own systems.  Serious martial artists who have been training for many years tend to have a great deal more respect for each other, I think.
> 
> In the dojo where I train, nobody puts down any other styles out there.  We are martial artists.  We train.  We're interested in what we're doing.  If somebody brings something in from another style or another dojo, and it works, hey, we'll use it, why not?  If it doesn't, it doesn't, but that doesn't mean the style or the technique is no good.  Maybe we weren't shown it properly.
> 
> I would suggest that anyone interested in comparing styles with the aim of putting someone else's style down consider first that they themselves are probably not all that and a bag of chips, and second that not every person who trains wants to do the same things.  _"I can run ten miles and kill five guys and not even be out of breath!"_  Yeah, kid, that's great.  I am 56 years old.  I won't run except to the bathroom unless I'm being chased.  Kill five guys?  Yeah, my morning breath can do that.  Go away, I have to scratch some itchy spots.


"Go away kid, you bother me." comes to mind after reading that.  W.C. Fields, from the movie "Poppy" 1936.  Great stuff.

I've been lucky enough... well, except for my stint in KMA schools where the arrogance about the superiority of the style was... pervasive and unearned ... imo... to be in schools where it's like what Bill describes above. Open and willing to experiment and learn.


----------



## JP3

Tony Dismukes said:


> In any group, the most obnoxious folks tend to be the loudest. Most TMA folks don't hate MMA/Kickboxing/BJJ and most  and most MMA/Kickboxing/BJJ folks don't hate TMAs.
> 
> (On a side note, no one even agrees on what a "TMA" is. Typically arts like TKD get lumped into the TMA category, while BJJ and Muay Thai do not - even though BJJ and Muay Thai are both older than TKD.)
> 
> Lots of people, including some of us on this forum (myself included) and some professional MMA fighters, train on both sides of the fence.
> 
> For those who do argue about the subject, there are a few likely causes.
> 
> Some people have a lot of ego invested in whatever system  they train and want the emotional reassurance of feeling like their art provides all the answers they will ever need.
> 
> Some people have strong opinions about a certain approach to training (sparring vs no sparring, competition vs no competition, etc) and the MMA vs TMA arguments are just a proxy for disagreements on those issues.
> 
> Some people on the MMA side have only experienced crappy, McDojo-style "TMAs" and believe that is all there is on the TMA side.
> 
> Some people on the TMA side have bought into nonsense from their instructors about how their art is so deadly it can't used in MMA because they would be snapping people's necks left and right.
> 
> Some people are just fanboys and don't even train, but still want to pontificate about how their preferred system is the best.


Excellent. I wish I'd written that, but I didn't, so I had to quote it.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> Yeah me too.
> 
> 
> 
> Your point is well taken (no pun intended). However, would you really consider a kung fu exponent (for example) who is trained in kicking, punching, joint locking, throws, etc. to be really at a level of disadvantage against a Bjj exponent as someone fighting unarmed against someone armed to the teeth?



I would expect both individuals to react, under stress, the way they've trained.  I would expect them to react based upon the totality of their experience(s).  To be clear, one is not necessarily 'tougher' than the other.  One type of training is not better or worse than the other.  But the end game differs so the methodology differs.  Could a MMA do well in a street fight?  Sure.  But did specific things they did (or didn't do) in their training put them at a disadvantage?  Yes.  We have well documented cases where an individual reverted to their training under duress and it wasn't a good result.  Thus training had to change.  So as a high liability instructor (21 years now) I see all training through the lens of training vs. end result and what is the best way to achieve it.

If I were training for a MMA match I would NOT train the way I've trained my entire life.  Sure, I might do well initially (or not at all) but my training would not have properly prepared me for that specific venue.  The reverse is true, when training for SD I would not train in MMA or even some TMA that are heavily influenced by sport.  Doesn't mean they suck, because the don't.  But they are not the best vehicle to get to my intended destination.  

Now one CAN train in some MMA/TMA and also have a focus on SD.  But they need to incorporate all those things I've listed to make it the best vehicle i.e. multiple attackers, armed attackers, escape/evasion, laws governing SD, training in typical environments that fights/muggings/attempted rapes occur and all the other stuff that goes into a sound SD program.  I will be teaching a woman's SD course again in the near future.  Yes, it will have hands on stuff.  The kind of stuff that is stupid-simple, gross motor skilled and retained in long term memory.  It will include hardening their home and vehicle to make it harder to be attacked in.  It will include weapons and defensive tools (such as flashlights).  All that stuff and more goes into such training.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm sorry you're not 100%.
> 
> Just to make sure the premise is understood, hypothetically, you can rely on your training and I can rely on mine.  Mine incorporates firearms, kubaton (and other types of batons) and edged weapons.  In the ring I would have my HK P30SK, serrated Hawkbill and kubaton which is my normal EDC.  Is this acceptable?



You would need it.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> Ah, but let's continue that thought. In a sport competition you punch, kick and grapple a single, unarmed opponent using a pre-arranged rule set that both abide by, in a controlled environment. You get one or more rest breaks. Have corner people to advise you and treat any injuries you may have sustained. And if you've had enough you can quit and walk away.
> 
> None of that applies to self defense. So while you may punch, kick and grapple there exists a multitude of other more priority factors. For example, SD training should involve the laws governing use-of-force. SD training should cover avoidance, escape, evasion and de-escalation. Sports training doesn't cover that as it's not used in competition. Sports don't train for that because it doesn't apply. SD training should be against single as well as multiple attackers. Sports training doesn't involve multiple attackers because it's one-on-one. SD training should cover weapons use, improvised and conventional from the perspective of you and the attacker(s). Sports training doesn't cover that as no weapons are used in the ring. SD training should cover that the attacker(s) aren't going to obey rules. SD training shouldn't continually occur in a sterile, controlled environment. As I often note, SD training should be inside a car, in an elevator, on stairs, in a bed, in an alley, between two cars etc. None of that applies to sports training because it simply isn't applicable. In a SD situation there are no water breaks. No one is there to give you a pep talk. Medical care probably isn't immediately available.
> 
> Someone into competition doesn't focus on these things because none of it applies to their goal. If you're a TKD or kick boxer looking to score points by kicking a certain area of an opponents body...why would you waste time drilling on fighting inside a car preventing a carjacking? If on the other hand I want SD, why would I waste time training to put someone in an arm bar on the ground and trying to make them tap out? Thus two different goals and two different methodologies of training.
> 
> Someone once said that in sport, you're looking to win. In SD, you're looking to not lose.



Your points have some merit and some silliness. I mean water breaks? I dont think that is a determining factor of who is going to win a fight. And in looking at training for self defence it is the differences that make a difference. Not just every difference you can dredge up.

When we look at important factors of self defence. Big ones like how to actually fight. The little ones like rules and refs and corner people are not really worth focusing on.

If you are getting attacked by Mark Hunt hoping he wants to stop after five minutes is a pretty poor game plan.

So even with differences between training and self defence. You conclusion that you have to change the entire system is quite simply madness. If I dont train deescalation I need to do kata? If I want to fight a guy in a car. Sparring is inappropriate?

Come on this just isnt a serious look at self defence.

Go find an expert who handles deescalation. Go work out how to fight in a car.

It is really not that difficult.




From the sanitised mat to the situation. Notice the baby is not thrown out with the bathwater. They take a technique that they can practice and use it in a different environment. The determining factors are still not trivial things like water breaks.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Except that's not objective evidence of whether it works against an unprepared attacker, anyway. It's a useful method of validation, but not being able to do something against a well-trained and prepared opponent does not necessarily mean it can't be used against an aggressive attacker who isn't expecting that response. That can be easily seen in how often a single powerful jab ends an altercation in the street, and how seldom the first dozen or so jabs have much effect in a competition. Nobody I know of would argue that jabs aren't effective in a short defensive fight, even though they rarely show much immediate ability to do damage in a contest.
> 
> The same could be said of a lot of standing grappling techniques. A skilled opponent who is aware they are in a contest can avoid giving the weight commitment or arm control that make those techniques available. But in an attack, trying to get it done fast (which is often the case, as seen in many videos), an attacker does commit weight and make arm control available. He also walks into jabs that the trained guy wouldn't.



You should base your self defence on what you can do in training. 

For all seriousness. You dont go train an arm bar. Suck royaly at it and so come to the conclusion that the arm bar works anyway. Because criminals al have skinny wrists or something.

This is not good self defence.

Good self defence is a bunch of techniques that you are most likley to pull off not ones you are not likley to pull off unless unless.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> This is part of the problem.  The only "objective" evidence in your eyes is for something to be proven with the field of consensual/sport/fighting.  But Karate kata isn't designed to function within the realms of consensual fighting, it is designed for self defence from _non consensual_ criminal violence.
> 
> _“The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.”_
> 
> Consensual fighting and non consensual criminal violence are two _different _things_.  _So you cannot measure the effectiveness of one by testing it within the realm of the another field that it was not designed to function in, anymore than you can test the effectiveness of a screwdriver by trying to mow the lawn with it.
> 
> You don't understand the problem (why consensual fighting is different to self defence) you don't understand how to interpret the movements within karate kata and you don't understand how to apply the techniques of karate kata for SD.  There is *no part *of this discussion you understand.  Further, the only evidence you will accept is for this to be proven in a field in which a) it is not designed to function and b) has been decided by you as the only true test, despite not understanding any part of the subject.
> 
> It is perfectly understandable then that you don't, and never will 'get it'.  And this is not a problem.  You don't understand any part of the problem or the solution, and this also isn't a problem , as has been explain your inability to undestand something does not diminish it effectiveness.
> 
> But this does not mean that you should be arguing with the people that do understand the problem and do understand one solution, that their solution will not work because it is not designed to function within a completely arbitrary measure that someone, who does not understand any part of this, had decided is the only true way to prove effectiveness.
> 
> You know about BJJ, I know little, hence I don't try to tell you what does and does not work within BJJ.  You know what works, you done it, and the inability of other people to understand how it works has no bearing on its effectiveness.  What I don't get is why you continue to argue with those of us who do understand the difference between consensual fighting and SD, and do know how to interpret and apply the the techniques of karate kata, and have done so in live situations, that our solution to the problem does not work.  It work, we know it works, we do not need to prove to you it works, nor do we require you to understand how it works, nor do we need to prove its effectiveness in a completely different field that it is not designed to function in.  What we do require is that you stop arguing about a subject that understand absolutely no part of, with the people who do.
> 
> I took my son to the hospital easter weekend as his was in severe abdominal pain.  The Doctor told me they were going to rush him to theatre to perform an apomdectomy.   I did not ask the surgeon to prove his diagnosis by beating me at monopoly because I had arbitrarily decided that is the only true test of his ability to understand both the problem and the solution.  I know nothing of medicine, he does so I listen to him because he knows what he is talking about and I don't.  Now my son is recovering well and we are sat here waiting for Dr Who to start, instead of organising his funeral which is what we would have been doing if I tried to have an arguement with the Dr and tell him he was wrong because he couldn't beat me at monopoly.  This is, as idiotic as it sounds, is exactly what you are doing.
> 
> You do not understand what SD is, you do not understand how to interpret the movements of karate kata, you do not understand how to apply them to SD, and you do not understand the difference between consensual fighting and SD, so you should probably stop arguing with those of us who do, accept that you don't understand (and never will) move on, and stick to talking about the subject matter you do understand?



You didn't take your son to a witch doctor or a faith healer either.

You took him to somone who was objectively effective at treating illness


----------



## Tez3

What fun. 
This thread has turned into exactly something most of us knew it would, much thanks to the OP who opened this all up again.
Remind me to go on a medical forum or a body building one, maybe a car enthusiast's one and tell them on the basis I once saw a stamp or a car and can lift weights a little they are all wrong.
I get that there's people who don't use or like kata, it's fine but don't lecture those who do use it on how useless it is based on a small amount of poor instruction once received.
Every time kata gets mentioned it's jumped on, 'oh it's so useless... you don't fight like that...it's not real...you'd lose in the cage....etc etc etc'. it's doesn't matter how many times we explain, how many examples we show, what we get back is like a stuck vinyl record. How many threads is this on now, how many posts jumped on because that word 'kata' is mentioned?
How about we just draw the line now? You don't like kata, we get it, how about you just shut up about it now? How about we discuss kata bunkai etc among ourselves and you don't join in? How about we just amicably agree to disagree and just get on with training how we want to, how we find effective?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> What fun.
> This thread has turned into exactly something most of us knew it would, much thanks to the OP who opened this all up again.
> Remind me to go on a medical forum or a body building one, maybe a car enthusiast's one and tell them on the basis I once saw a stamp or a car and can lift weights a little they are all wrong.
> I get that there's people who don't use or like kata, it's fine but don't lecture those who do use it on how useless it is based on a small amount of poor instruction once received.
> Every time kata gets mentioned it's jumped on, 'oh it's so useless... you don't fight like that...it's not real...you'd lose in the cage....etc etc etc'. it's doesn't matter how many times we explain, how many examples we show, what we get back is like a stuck vinyl record. How many threads is this on now, how many posts jumped on because that word 'kata' is mentioned?
> How about we just draw the line now? You don't like kata, we get it, how about you just shut up about it now? How about we discuss kata bunkai etc among ourselves and you don't join in? How about we just amicably agree to disagree and just get on with training how we want to, how we find effective?


If you are in the audience on jerry springer. 

You are still on jerry springer.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tez3 said:


> Every time kata gets mentioned it's jumped on,...


My opinion on this has changed 3 times in my life.

When I

- was young, I had learned more than 50 forms. I was pretty much a form collector. I loved form back then.
- started tournament competition. Fighting was the only thing that I was interested. I stop form training. I hated form in that period of time.
- getting older, I use the form that I had created myself (not the form that I had learned from my teachers) to keep myself in good physical shape (when training partner is not available). I neither love nor hate form.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Which is all fine and dandy, but my issue with that argument is what about the people who ARE training to become martial athletes? Why are they concentrated in one set of styles, and completely avoid another set of styles? Before my injury, I taught Bjj at a MMA gym. Why aren't they learning Aikijutsu, Aikido, Praying Mantis, or even Judo?
> 
> A bit more to the overall point; There ARE people in this thread who are saying that karate and other TMAs weren't designed for competitive fighting. That's an argument I take issue with, considering that many of those arts have a history of competitive fighting that abruptly ends when the UFC emerges on the scene.


Because those styles don't normally aim to deliver training to someone who wants to train 10-30 hours per week, develop their highest fitness, and train against the highest level of skill. The martial athletes typically seek the best training ground for their goal.

The second paragraph is an entirely different issue, and I agree that - in the least - some folks are mis-stating the competitive background of their art. I do think Karate wasn't actually designed for competition. Competition became a major part of the training (perhaps always was - I'm no historian), but it was always competition within a certain set of limits. I'm not sure some of that competition wasn't counter-productive (soft point fighting) if the objective was self-defense fighting ability. Of course, that's not everyone's goal, so maybe those types of competition just fit those folks. I don't have a problem with an art not being a good match for inter-art competition, so long as it does what it should (whatever that expectation is, which probably varies by school and again by student).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm sorry you're not 100%.
> 
> Just to make sure the premise is understood, hypothetically, you can rely on your training and I can rely on mine.  Mine incorporates firearms, kubaton (and other types of batons) and edged weapons.  In the ring I would have my HK P30SK, serrated Hawkbill and kubaton which is my normal EDC.  Is this acceptable?


That's an extreme position, and doesn't contribute to the debate. You wouldn't get to use some of those things against someone who was subduing you without injuring you, so why should you get to use them against a martial artist who is doing that in a ring?


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Which is all fine and dandy, but my issue with that argument is what about the people who ARE training to become martial athletes? Why are they concentrated in one set of styles, and completely avoid another set of styles? Before my injury, I taught Bjj at a MMA gym. Why aren't they learning Aikijutsu, Aikido, Praying Mantis, or even Judo?
> 
> A bit more to the overall point; There ARE people in this thread who are saying that karate and other TMAs weren't designed for competitive fighting. That's an argument I take issue with, considering that many of those arts have a history of competitive fighting that abruptly ends when the UFC emerges on the scene.



The answer you want to hear.

Because MMA is just hands down better than all TMA. Wear tap out shirts with pride and make sure to not miss the Joe Rogan podcasts.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Are we really going to act like a woman who practices kata all the time is just as capable as MMA fighters like Mckenzie Dern or Holly Holm to get a big guy off of them?



Ladies and gentlemen this is what is known as a strawman argument.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> You should base your self defence on what you can do in training.


I don't understand how you think that's not what I do.



> For all seriousness. You dont go train an arm bar. Suck royaly at it and so come to the conclusion that the arm bar works anyway. Because criminals al have skinny wrists or something.
> 
> This is not good self defence.
> 
> Good self defence is a bunch of techniques that you are most likley to pull off not ones you are not likley to pull off unless unless.


And none of that is contrary to what I've said.


----------



## FriedRice

Jedmus said:


> I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.
> 
> My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.
> 
> What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.



Probably not hate, but just not the free respect that the TMA'ists used to get when they say they're a Black Belt in whatever, like it often was in the Pre-UFC days.  People saw what happened in UFC 1-4 and even 5-15 or so....then it started to filter down to BJJ + Muay Thai, or die.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I don't understand how you think that's not what I do.
> 
> 
> And none of that is contrary to what I've said.



You think? 

You are by definition training to fight a trained guy.  Sort of. 

Because you are training with guys who are training.  There is going to be an arms race. 

When we look at the UFC and the really trained guys.  They are doing martial arts basics.  Because they win you fights.  Arm bars that rely on gross mistakes really don't. 



When i repeatedly mentioned defenses to double leg take down as being 
Overhook. 
Sprawl.
Crossface. 

This is because it is the first thing you will learn in a grappling class
It is also the defence Demetrius Johnson used to win his last UFC fight. 

Beginners to experts same move. 

Now I could train rubbish downward elbow on the chance that in self defence someone will throw rubbish double legs. But why would i?


----------



## FriedRice

Hanzou said:


> Mike Tyson shadowboxing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look familiar?



This is just sports fighting. I bet some too deadly for sport SD guy can just walk up and stomp him in the nuts to death while he's having his water break.


----------



## Steve

Well, I don't want to get in the way of all this fun.   I just want to point out that training cops with guns and all the accoutrement that cops haul around with them isn't the same as training non-cops for self defense.  

And while Mma types get water breaks, cops run on dunkin, sooo....


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> Probably not hate, but just not the free respect that the TMA'ists used to get when they say they're a Black Belt in whatever, like it often was in the Pre-UFC days.  People saw what happened in UFC 1-4 and even 5-15 or so....then it started to filter down to BJJ + Muay Thai, or die.



Yet many succeed without neither. I look at like this. Are you training like an MMA fighter ? If the answer is no, they you will never be one. 

Are you training to be a kick boxer? A karateka? A Judoka? If yes then you will be those, if not then you won't. If you wish to be a good martial artist then train like one, same concept.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

As a practitioner of traditional martial arts I can honestly say that most MMA and sport-based folks train harder than me, condition better than me and use higher percentage moves than me. If I was to step into the cage or octagon or competition mat with them and try to beat them in a fair fight, I would likely be tied into a pretzel or maybe even knocked out, even if I tried to cheat, break their rules and do things like break fingers, gouge eyes, crush testicles which many of them train to avoid, if the guy or girls fighting attributes are far superior to mine I am likely going to lose in the end. What I do is the best I can do with what I have. Every violent situation I have ever survived as a Soldier and civilian has been primarily luck, the element of surprise, one second someone is running at you with a knife and all they see is prey the next instant they are being swung into an oncoming vehicle, not for any reason other than just luck, who plans for a vehicle to be conveniently passing by as they are attacked by someone with a knife. My training is not the best, its not the bottom line, final say or ultimate in self-defense but it is adequate. 

That being said I also am not the spokesman or ultimate embodiment of my martial path, so my opinion and the results of my violent encounters don't represent the totality of the practitioners and instructors of my traditional method, if I die I don't shame the warrior ancestors that passed down their experiences to the next generation, it simply means I alone die just as I alone fight and I alone put forth the amount of effort in training. People point to someone other than themselves and as if someone else achievements in the ring or on the battlefield are vicariously transferred to them by virtue of claiming to study and train in the same method. Sorry that is not how it works, if you study western boxing, Mike Tyson is not your avatar, if your a BJJ practitioner the Gracie family is not your avatar, if you study Kenjutsu Musashi is not your avatar in fact most of them would see the people claiming to train as they do and shake their head in disgust at the horrible imitation lol.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Which is saying that all you need for self defense is kata





Hanzou said:


> kata is designed for Self Defense.



These two statements are not equivalent.



Hanzou said:


> You also like to play this bizarre semantic game where somehow when two people are in a ring they're fighting, but if you get tackled in the street by some sociopath and you have to defend yourself, its not fighting.



There is a distinct difference. One is consensual for both parties, the other is not. 



Hanzou said:


> That's too bad for them, since I don't hate traditional styles.
> 
> Just like I don't hate classic cars and antique weaponry.
> 
> However if you tell me that a Model-T can perform as well as a Nissan GTR, or that a flintlock musket is equal to an AK-47, then I think you're full of crap.



And this is a false equivalency.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps people who use flintlocks shouldn't attempt to argue that their weapons are as good, if not better than modern ones.


A flintlock pointed at your head and fired will kill you just the same.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

MMA training can be applied to SD so easily though. I don't really understand the argument. I practice a non-classical martial art which has both TCMA elements and MMA elements. My system has solo forms, 2-man set drills, shadow boxing drills, and sparring exercises. I include all of these things in my personal training and don't leave anything out, because all of them serve a specific purpose. To say that one way is better than another just sounds kind of crazy to me. I have a lot of friends in the MMA and although most of them are bull-headed, I don't think there's really any hate between TMA and MMA and in fact, most of the MMA practitioners I've met have a TMA background that they are passionate about, whether it be Judo, or Karate, or Taekwondo, or Kung Fu, or Muay Thai, or Boxing, or whatever. Most of the MMA fighters I know (the really good ones anyway) had a foundation in some prior TMA system before MMA training. None of them have ever expressed any hatred or bias towards TMA training. At least not to me. I think the argument actually comes from a misunderstanding between martial artists who haven't transcended yet. I think those who have given up the notion of thinking this way are on the path to becoming great martial artists. They know why we practice solo forms, and why we practice them very slowly. They know why we practice 2-man drills, and why we practice them with repetitive motions. They know why we practice shadow boxing, and why we practice it very quickly. They know why we practice sparring, and why we practice it with contact and resistance. There is a very specific purpose and reason why we practice everything. No way is better than any other way. It's like trying to compare fruits to vegetables. At least that's one point of view. That being said, if you give a MMA fighter a knife, baton or a gun, what do you have? You have a trained fighter who is now armed with a weapon. Put the same fighter in a NHB environment and what do you have? You now have someone who practices both MMA and TMA tactics. Who wins then? NHB wins, in my opinion.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Headhunter said:


> So you don't shadow box then? Or don't do drills in the air. Your coach doesn't call out combinations for you to use in shadow boxing? Because that's exactly the same as kata


They are not exactly the same. Kata is a lot more technical.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> People will lie to protect themselves and their beliefs


Yeah because YOU never do that right?


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> The answer you want to hear.
> 
> Because MMA is just hands down better than all TMA. Wear tap out shirts with pride and make sure to not miss the Joe Rogan podcasts.



That isn't the answer I want to hear. 

I guess you weren't paying attention.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> Yeah because YOU never do that right?



I never said I didn't.

Which is why I tend to not use anecdotal evidence in an argument/debate.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Because those styles don't normally aim to deliver training to someone who wants to train 10-30 hours per week, develop their highest fitness, and train against the highest level of skill. The martial athletes typically seek the best training ground for their goal.



You bring up an interesting point though, because in my experience, Boxing, Judo and Bjj were a lot more physically demanding than Karate, TKD, and TSD. 



> The second paragraph is an entirely different issue, and I agree that - in the least - some folks are mis-stating the competitive background of their art. I do think Karate wasn't actually designed for competition. Competition became a major part of the training (perhaps always was - I'm no historian), but it was always competition within a certain set of limits. I'm not sure some of that competition wasn't counter-productive (soft point fighting) if the objective was self-defense fighting ability. Of course, that's not everyone's goal, so maybe those types of competition just fit those folks. I don't have a problem with an art not being a good match for inter-art competition, so long as it does what it should (whatever that expectation is, which probably varies by school and again by student).



There are records of ancient Kung Fu and Karate tournaments. I'll look into them when I have some time.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Which is why I tend to not use anecdotal evidence in an argument/debate.


You have talked countless times on this forum about your experience in the martial arts but no one on here has ever seen you physically do any martial arts training, demonstrate any techniques or seen footage of you competing in competitions or fighting in the street, Seems like anecdotal evidence to me.


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> MMA training can be applied to SD so easily though. I don't really understand the argument. I practice a non-classical martial art which has both TCMA elements and MMA elements. My system has solo forms, 2-man set drills, shadow boxing drills, and sparring exercises. I include all of these things in my personal training and don't leave anything out, because all of them serve a specific purpose. To say that one way is better than another just sounds kind of crazy to me. I have a lot of friends in the MMA and although most of them are bull-headed, I don't think there's really any hate between TMA and MMA and in fact, most of the MMA practitioners I've met have a TMA background that they are passionate about, whether it be Judo, or Karate, or Taekwondo, or Kung Fu, or Muay Thai, or Boxing, or whatever. Most of the MMA fighters I know (the really good ones anyway) had a foundation in some prior TMA system before MMA training. None of them have ever expressed any hatred or bias towards TMA training. At least not to me. I think the argument actually comes from a misunderstanding between martial artists who haven't transcended yet. I think those who have given up the notion of thinking this way are on the path to becoming great martial artists. They know why we practice solo forms, and why we practice them very slowly. They know why we practice 2-man drills, and why we practice them with repetitive motions. They know why we practice shadow boxing, and why we practice it very quickly. They know why we practice sparring, and why we practice it with contact and resistance. There is a very specific purpose and reason why we practice everything. No way is better than any other way. It's like trying to compare fruits to vegetables. At least that's one point of view. That being said, if you give a MMA fighter a knife, baton or a gun, what do you have? You have a trained fighter who is now armed with a weapon. Put the same fighter in a NHB environment and what do you have? You now have someone who practices both MMA and TMA tactics. Who wins then? NHB wins, in my opinion.


Mma friends who are all bull headed? Sounds like you're just promoting a stereotype there. Every mma guy I know is respectful and humble


----------



## RTKDCMB

Headhunter said:


> Mma friends who are all bull headed? Sounds like you're just promoting a stereotype there. Every mma guy I know is respectful and humble


Sounds more like he is promoting a limited and biased data set.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Headhunter said:


> Mma friends who are all bull headed? Sounds like you're just promoting a stereotype there. Every mma guy I know is respectful and humble



I was refering specifically to the MMA fighters I know personally, not to MMA fighters in general. And yes, even though my MMA friends are bull-headed, they are still very respectful and humble. By "bull-headed," what I mean is that most of them are respectful of other ways, but are unwilling or just uninterested in trying them. Whereas me, I'll try anything, even if I don't like it. Sorry for the misinterpretation. Hope it's clarified.


----------



## Ironbear24

Headhunter said:


> Mma friends who are all bull headed? Sounds like you're just promoting a stereotype there. Every mma guy I know is respectful and humble



You mustn't know very many. I met assholes in many styles.


----------



## Headhunter

Ironbear24 said:


> You mustn't know very many. I met assholes in many styles.


Actually I do and none of them are arrogant at all. Yeah there are but that's just humans nothing to do with them fighting mma


----------



## Headhunter

RTKDCMB said:


> Sounds more like he is promoting a limited and biased data set.


Pretty much


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

RTKDCMB said:


> You have talked countless times on this forum about your experience in the martial arts but no one on here has ever seen you physically do any martial arts training, demonstrate any techniques or seen footage of you competing in competitions or fighting in the street, Seems like anecdotal evidence to me.



Not that it matters. Everything anyone ever posts is immediately attacked with brutal criticism anyway. I've noticed that about the internet. I posted some pictures of myself training with some rather famous martial artists who already have a reputation for being badass, but I never mentioned their names. Instead, I just watched as people criticised us for everything we say and do (lol). Other martial artists who I've never even heard of outside of MT started making crazy remarks about how I have bad form, or improper technique. It's actually quite humorous. I wouldn't stress so much over it if I was you. 



Headhunter said:


> Pretty much



My point exactly. It's like no matter what you say or do, people will just ignore it. All they really are looking for is an argument. I rest my case. Lol


----------



## RTKDCMB

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Not that it matters. Everything anyone ever posts is immediately attacked with brutal criticism anyway


Yes because we all know that people on the internet have such a reputation for civilized behavior, mild opinions and well informed comments.


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Not that it matters. Everything anyone ever posts is immediately attacked with brutal criticism anyway. I've noticed that about the internet. I posted some pictures of myself training with some rather famous martial artists who already have a reputation for being badass, but I never mentioned their names. Instead, I just watched as people criticised us for everything we say and do (lol). Other martial artists who I've never even heard of outside of MT started making crazy remarks about how I have bad form, or improper technique. It's actually quite humorous. I wouldn't stress so much over it if I was you.
> 
> 
> 
> My point exactly. It's like no matter what you say or do, people will just ignore it. All they really are looking for is an argument. I rest my case. Lol


You haven't even been on this board a month and yet you seem to know exactly how this board works? If someone posts something people will give their opinion on it. That's the whole point. You're just get upset because people's opinions on your style isn't what you want to hear. You haven't heard of people on here? And? What's your point? No ones heard of you either. 

It's funny you say all this because you're the one on here constantly looking for arguments and even admitted to making a thread specifically to cause an argument


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Headhunter said:


> You haven't even been on this board a month and yet you seem to know exactly how this board works? If someone posts something people will give their opinion on it. That's the whole point. You're just get upset because people's opinions on your style isn't what you want to hear. You haven't heard of people on here? And? What's your point? No ones heard of you either.
> 
> It's funny you say all this because you're the one on here constantly looking for arguments and even admitted to making a thread specifically to cause an argument



None of what you just said has any basis in truth. Everything you just said is out of context (lol). I haven't even been on this forum for a month, okay? But I wasn't refering specifically to this forum, I was refering to the internet in general (lol). I don't get upset at all by what anyone says on this forum. I rather enjoy reading all the posts and comments, actually (lol). And sure nobody's heard of me (yeah right lol), but actually if you read what I said, I was refering to the guys I trained with, not refering to myself (lol). I didn't mention their names because it just makes it that much funnier. It's like watching people rag on Chuck Norris, it's just hilarious to be honest. I actually don't go looking for arguments, and there is not one shred of evidence to support that claim, so I don't know where you got that idea from. I'm assuming you just made that up in your mind (lol). I don't initiate arguments. I might entertain them, or respond to them as I see fit, but I don't start them to begin with. I'm entertaining this argument with you right now, but I wasn't trying to start an argument. I'm just responding to your argument, that's all (lol). And I never admitted to making a thread specifically to cause an argument. That's a blatant lie, taken completely out of context (lol). I did start one thread on this forum though just to prove a point, that people on the internet are bashfully argumentative (lol). But that's okay. If you think it upsets me, you're wrong. If anyone sounds upset right now, it's you (lol). You made some typos as a result.

It's cool man. Just relax.


----------



## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My opinion on this has changed 3 times in my life.
> 
> When I
> 
> - was young, I had learned more than 50 forms. I was pretty much a form collector. I loved form back then.
> - started tournament competition. Fighting was the only thing that I was interested. I stop form training. I hated form in that period of time.
> - getting older, I use the form that I had created myself (not the form that I had learned from my teachers) to keep myself in good physical shape (when training partner is not available). I neither love nor hate form.



and it didn't change once because of a stranger on the internet telling you his style was better than yours.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> You think?
> 
> You are by definition training to fight a trained guy.  Sort of.
> 
> Because you are training with guys who are training.  There is going to be an arms race.
> 
> When we look at the UFC and the really trained guys.  They are doing martial arts basics.  Because they win you fights.  Arm bars that rely on gross mistakes really don't.
> 
> 
> 
> When i repeatedly mentioned defenses to double leg take down as being
> Overhook.
> Sprawl.
> Crossface.
> 
> This is because it is the first thing you will learn in a grappling class
> It is also the defence Demetrius Johnson used to win his last UFC fight.
> 
> Beginners to experts same move.
> 
> Now I could train rubbish downward elbow on the chance that in self defence someone will throw rubbish double legs. But why would i?


It's not a "rubbish downward elbow" if, in fact, a "rubbish double legs" shows up. That's the point. It's not a useful tool against a trained grappler, but it actually can be used against something that isn't a good double-leg. It's not waiting around for a bad double-leg to show up, it's using what works in the situation. A downward elbow is not a different thing that takes a lot of training. Most of us train elbows, anyway. And most of us are competent to deliver them downward. So, if something shows up that a downward elbow works on, I'll use it, instead of a sprawl. Why? Because the sprawl sacrifices stability, mobility, and field of view. If that's what's needed, then that's what I'll do, but I'm not going to do it against an attack where a downward elbow would work. Oh, and neither would Demetrius Johnson, I expect. If his opponent stumbled the entry to a double-leg, he might just get a downward elbow, too (though there are other options I'd rather use in most cases).


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> None of what you just said has any basis in truth. Everything you just said is out of context (lol). I haven't even been on this forum for a month, okay? But I wasn't refering specifically to this forum, I was refering to the internet in general (lol). I don't get upset at all by what anyone says on this forum. I rather enjoy reading all the posts and comments, actually (lol). And sure nobody's heard of me (yeah right lol), but actually if you read what I said, I was refering to the guys I trained with, not refering to myself (lol). I didn't mention their names because it just makes it that much funnier. It's like watching people rag on Chuck Norris, it's just hilarious to be honest. I actually don't go looking for arguments, and there is not one shred of evidence to support that claim, so I don't know where you got that idea from. I'm assuming you just made that up in your mind (lol). I don't initiate arguments. I might entertain them, or respond to them as I see fit, but I don't start them to begin with. I'm entertaining this argument with you right now, but I wasn't trying to start an argument. I'm just responding to your argument, that's all (lol). And I never admitted to making a thread specifically to cause an argument. That's a blatant lie, taken completely out of context (lol). I did start one thread on this forum though just to prove a point, that people on the internet are bashfully argumentative (lol). But that's okay. If you think it upsets me, you're wrong. If anyone sounds upset right now, it's you (lol). You made some typos as a result.
> 
> It's cool man. Just relax.



Allow me to quote you to refresh your memory 


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> You're right, I do tend to entertain people who just want to argue for argument's sake. I must admit, sometimes I do it on purpose. Like this thread for example. I intentionally created this thread in a moment of humour, knowing that a select group (not everyone, but a few) would not be able to resist an onslaught on the OP (myself). .



Quite honestly I was willing to give you benefit of the doubt but now to be honest I agree with dale you're full of it. Everything you say tries to hard to make you sound like a humbleness master. It reeks of fakeness to me same way it did with Jon jones. So yeah there's your shred of evidence (lol)


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

gpseymour said:


> It's not a "rubbish downward elbow" if, in fact, a "rubbish double legs" shows up. That's the point. It's not a useful tool against a trained grappler, but it actually can be used against something that isn't a good double-leg. It's not waiting around for a bad double-leg to show up, it's using what works in the situation.



This is so true, it's not even funny. You know, a few martial artists on MTalk were extremely critical about one particular picture I showed of me holding my elbow in a way that seemed strangely ackward to them. I got some pretty ruthless comments about it (lol). It's all good though. What most of them didn't get to see was the motion behind the elbow or the reason for it. What the picture didn't capture was the motion. To the untrained eye, it probably looked like a pose. But actually, that picture was captured during a light-contact NHB sparring match. So the viewers never got to see what happened just before and just after that picture was taken. If they had been able to witness that sparring match, then they probably would've had a different opinion, considering I struck my partner 6 times during that session, and he never even hit me once. The moral to the story is this right here. "Efficiency is anything that scores."


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Headhunter said:


> Allow me to quote you to refresh your memory
> 
> 
> Quite honestly I was willing to give you benefit of the doubt but now to be honest I agree with dale you're full of it. Everything you say tries to hard to make you sound like a humbleness master. It reeks of fakeness to me same way it did with Jon jones. So yeah there's your shred of evidence (lol)



Thank you for quoting me. What you quoted actually contradicts your previous argument. It doesn't support your argument at all (lol). And it's your argument, not mine. You're the aggressor. I'm just playing defense. But okay, whatever you say man. Are you done? Cuz I am.


----------



## Tez3

Sami Ibrahim said:


> As a practitioner of traditional martial arts I can honestly say that most MMA and sport-based folks train harder than me, condition better than me and use higher percentage moves than me. If I was to step into the cage or octagon or competition mat with them and try to beat them in a fair fight, I would likely be tied into a pretzel or maybe even knocked out



You though would no more get into a competition without being prepared than most of us would. If you decided one day 'ah I want a competitive fight' you'd go along and find the right coach and train. That you don't is probably a matter of choice as well as being content with your choices and not bothering about others. It's the latter that's the problem for some on here. You know what you want to do, appreciate the competitive side as well as the SD one and leave others to do their thing as you do yours. Too many are dissatisfied with what others train and constantly look to undermine them on the pretext of 'helping them improve' etc.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> People point to someone other than themselves and as if someone else achievements in the ring or on the battlefield are vicariously transferred to them by virtue of claiming to study and train in the same method



Very much this.


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Thank you for quoting me. What you quoted actually contradicts your previous argument. It doesn't support your argument at all (lol). But okay, whatever you say man. Are you done?


Yep because you're going on my ignore list


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Headhunter said:


> Yep because you're going on my ignore list



Thank heavens. Do me a favor. Tell your buddies DaleDugas and Oaktree to put me on ignore too. I'm tired of all the arguments and aggression. (Lol)


----------



## Tez3

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> This is so true, it's not even funny. You know, a few martial artists on MTalk were extremely critical about one particular picture I showed of me holding my elbow in a way that seemed strangely ackward to them. I got some pretty ruthless comments about it (lol). It's all good though. What most of them didn't get to see was the motion behind the elbow or the reason for it. What the picture didn't capture was the motion. To the untrained eye, it probably looked like a pose. But actually, that picture was captured during a light-contact NHB sparring match. So the viewers never got to see what happened just before and just after that picture was taken. If they had been able to witness that sparring match, then they probably would've had a different opinion, considering I struck my partner 6 times during that session, and he never even hit me once. The moral to the story is this right here. "Efficiency is anything that scores."



So really there was little point in posting a still picture was there? You do seem fond of exaggerating though, either that or you lead a sheltered life. The comments weren't 'extremely' critical or 'ruthless', they were just comments. You seem to have built up in your head a bunch of us slavering at the mouth like rabid bunnies over dandelions on the lawn to criticise your posts. Lets face it you love the attention and start whinging at us every time you haven't been mentioned so you put up a 'look at me being picked on post' every so often just to keep you up there. Hey, I like attention as well but I'm honest about it, I don't need to alienate everyone here to have fun, just those who are patent numpties. Are you one? I'll let you think about it.


----------



## Headhunter

Tez3 said:


> So really there was little point in posting a still picture was there? You do seem fond of exaggerating though, either that or you lead a sheltered life. The comments weren't 'extremely' critical or 'ruthless', they were just comments. You seem to have built up in your head a bunch of us slavering at the mouth like rabid bunnies over dandelions on the lawn to criticise your posts. Lets face it you love the attention and start whinging at us every time you haven't been mentioned so you put up a 'look at me being picked on post' every so often just to keep you up there. Hey, I like attention as well but I'm honest about it, I don't need to alienate everyone here to have fun, just those who are patent numpties. Are you one? I'll let you think about it.


Pretty much my problem with the guy. He acts like everyone here wants to fight each other and he's the doe eyed innocent who gets bullied when quite honestly he's caused a lot of problems here himself. His first post here was telling us about a brand new style he invented of course he's going to get crisisism. No one here agrees on anything and that's fine I'm sure loads of people here disagree with me and that's perfectly fine I'm not going to cry about it. That's life


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Tez3 said:


> So really there was little point in posting a still picture was there? You do seem fond of exaggerating though, either that or you lead a sheltered life. The comments weren't 'extremely' critical or 'ruthless', they were just comments. You seem to have built up in your head a bunch of us slavering at the mouth like rabid bunnies over dandelions on the lawn to criticise your posts. Lets face it you love the attention and start whinging at us every time you haven't been mentioned so you put up a 'look at me being picked on post' every so often just to keep you up there. Hey, I like attention as well but I'm honest about it, I don't need to alienate everyone here to have fun, just those who are patent numpties. Are you one? I'll let you think about it.



I have done nothing at all, except respond (lol). I didn't go out of my way to post any pictures. I was asked to post pictures. I was criticized for NOT posting pictures. Now I'm being criticized for posting them (lol). Again, this proves my point. And again, I rest my case. Some people just want to argue for no reason. They shouldn't get so upset then when someone decides to debate with them. Especially when some people are just being aggressors. How can an aggressor get angry with someone who plays defense? Stop attacking, and I'll stop defending. Simple. (lol)

My defense must be pretty solid too, considering that nobody has accomplished anything yet by lying or being rude. All it's done is reveal the aggressor's ignorance and unwillingness to admit when they are wrong, which is precisely why I do it. (lol)


----------



## Tez3

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I have done nothing at all, except respond (lol). I didn't go out of my way to post any pictures. I was asked to post pictures. I was criticized for NOT posting pictures. Now I'm being criticized for posting them (lol). Again, this proves my point. And again, I rest my case. Some people just want to argue for no reason. They shouldn't get so upset then when someone decides to debate with them. Especially when some people are just being aggressors. How can an aggressor get angry with someone who plays defense? Stop attacking, and I'll stop defending. Simple. (lol)



Oh my, you are amusing dear boy. What you do is get your defence in before anyone has been 'aggressive'...your word not mine, no one has been aggressive here, I've seen it when they are and trust me no one has been aggressive to you, unless of course you come from a sheltered background and think anyone who disagrees with you is 'aggressive'?
I don't see anyone criticising you for posting pictures, what I see is you complaining that people didn't see what you wanted them to see on a photo. Think about this logically, last night there was a much hyped boxing match on, if I post up a photo from that fight could you say from looking at it who won, which round it was, what won the fight for the winner? ( I'm not mentioning names or who won because not everyone may know yet) Of course you can't but if I post up a video you can see the information for yourself. See, a beginner's guide on how not to alienate people here.
In the meantime here's a song my Rainbows and Brownies sing, enjoy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> I'm sure loads of people here disagree with me


No they don't.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Oh my Lord, please stop lying (lol). Like seriously, the posts are available to the public. Everyone can see for themselves. I wasn't complaining about anything. In fact, I was merely responding (and actually agreeing) with something GPSEYMOUR said. Why you decided to even butt into it is beyond me. But go ahead, keep twisting my words out of context. It's not like no one can research it for themselves (lol).


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## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> No they don't.


I don't mean on that subject I mean on like different opinions about martial arts that I have that others won't have like you'll do something different to how I do it and that's perfectly fine


----------



## Headhunter

Tez3 said:


> Oh my, you are amusing dear boy. What you do is get your defence in before anyone has been 'aggressive'...your word not mine, no one has been aggressive here, I've seen it when they are and trust me no one has been aggressive to you, unless of course you come from a sheltered background and think anyone who disagrees with you is 'aggressive'?
> I don't see anyone criticising you for posting pictures, what I see is you complaining that people didn't see what you wanted them to see on a photo. Think about this logically, last night there was a much hyped boxing match on, if I post up a photo from that fight could you say from looking at it who won, which round it was, what won the fight for the winner? ( I'm not mentioning names or who won because not everyone may know yet) Of course you can't but if I post up a video you can see the information for yourself. See, a beginner's guide on how not to alienate people here.
> In the meantime here's a song my Rainbows and Brownies sing, enjoy.


I also have to ask why this guy feels the need to write lol every sentence and put it in brackets


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Headhunter said:


> I also have to ask why this guy feels the need to write lol every sentence and put it in brackets



Why does that even concern you? If I fart and it doesn't stink, will you ask 'why' for that too? You're just being an aggressor, like a grumpy old man who is never satisfied with anything. Why, why, why? No, no, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Man shut up (lol). Your arguments suck. You have no solid argument to aggress with. You completely neglect valid statements (like my response to your comment about MMA fighters being bull-headed). You make false claims by trying to twist my words out of context, even when my posts are there for everyone to see (lol). And you just plain suck at attacking me. You can't win a debate without cheating. There is no foundation in what you claim. This makes me question your skills as a martial artist. If you can't even talk the talk, what makes you think you can walk the walk? Seriously, you have no game.


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## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> I don't mean on that subject I mean on like different opinions about martial arts that I have that others won't have like you'll do something different to how I do it and that's perfectly fine


That was a joke, HH.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

gpseymour said:


> That was a joke, HH.



I will wear that dislike GP with a smile on my face. You see that post you disliked? That's me being the aggressor.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Oh and I get it now, THAT'S why the sudden hostility (lol). It's because I mentioned a picture that people commented on. It's the same people (lol). I guess what I said to GP was offensive to all of them. Oops.

Oh well... Trump it.


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why does that even concern you? If I fart and it doesn't stink, will you ask 'why' for that too? You're just being an aggressor, like a grumpy old man who is never satisfied with anything. Why, why, why? No, no, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Man shut up (lol). Your arguments suck. You have no solid argument to aggress with. You completely neglect valid statements (like my response to your comment about MMA fighters being bull-headed). You make false claims by trying to twist my words out of context, even when my posts are there for everyone to see (lol). And you just plain suck at attacking me. You can't win a debate without cheating. There is no foundation in what you claim. This makes me question your skills as a martial artist. If you can't even talk the talk, what makes you think you can walk the walk? Seriously, you have no game.


And here it is. The fake little act has gone. You're right I am a grumpy old man but you're a little boy telling stories to his friends. Rightttt so I don't argue well that means I must suck as a martial artist? You do realise it's the other way round the ones who talk a good game are the ones who normally suck. I've been walking it longer than you've been alive. I've had 8-2 in boxing with 7 knockouts, 6-3 in kickboxing all 6 by ko and 1-0 in mma, black belt in kenpo karate, I've worked as a bouncer in numerous nightclubs and trained bouncers.

So yeah I'm not bothered by some guy who claims to have Invented a new style but can't show any of it. I have no game? Well guess what martial arts isn't a game you don't play martial arts.


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## Tez3

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why does that even concern you? If I fart and it doesn't stink, will you ask 'why' for that too? You're just being an aggressor, like a grumpy old man who is never satisfied with anything. Why, why, why? No, no, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Man shut up (lol). Your arguments suck. You have no solid argument to aggress with. You completely neglect valid statements (like my response to your comment about MMA fighters being bull-headed). You make false claims by trying to twist my words out of context, even when my posts are there for everyone to see (lol). And you just plain suck at attacking me. You can't win a debate without cheating. There is no foundation in what you claim. This makes me question your skills as a martial artist. If you can't even talk the talk, what makes you think you can walk the walk? Seriously, you have no game.



Oh my, so many issues! Ok about you farting..it can be the sing of serious medical issues so don't trivialise it.
'Aggressor' it doesn't mean what you think it does, you are using it to mean anyone who disagrees with you, would you prefer sycophancy?
'Your arguments suck', that means you don't actually have an answer for comments made so you attack. As for 'aggress' that's just too funny. Headhunter isn't 'claiming' anything, he's replying to your comments, you don't like those answers, you don't have to, no law against it but do stop with the accusations, it's boring and boorish.
I've no idea what you mean when you say 'cheating', that sadly is one of those phrases that sounded good as you typed it but is meaningless, one cannot cheat if one is simply writing an opinion. You also need to get over the idea that we post on here to 'win', MT isn't a competitive site, it's there for conversations and discussions not winning at who can post the most codswallop.
As for questioning skills at martial arts, that's just hypocritical because you were the one complaining people were questioning yours! Calm down and start posting as an adult ( I take you are one and not a young kid?) You need to stop seeing this place as aggressors and defendants, it isn't.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Headhunter said:


> And here it is. The fake little act has gone. You're right I am a grumpy old man but you're a little boy telling stories to his friends. Rightttt so I don't argue well that means I must suck as a martial artist? You do realise it's the other way round the ones who talk a good game are the ones who normally suck. I've been walking it longer than you've been alive. I've had 8-2 in boxing with 7 knockouts, 6-3 in kickboxing all 6 by ko and 1-0 in mma, black belt in kenpo karate, I've worked as a bouncer in numerous nightclubs and trained bouncers.
> 
> So yeah I'm not bothered by some guy who claims to have Invented a new style but can't show any of it



Apparently you are bothered by me, enough to tell me your whole life story (lol). Dude, whatever. I used to give a crap about statistics, but now I don't really care. So what? You did all those things for real? Well good for you. Does that intimidate me? Not really. I'm proud of you for having those accomplishments in your life, that's cool. I respect that. But that's about it. I'm not bothered by you at all. I'm not even afraid of you (lol).


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why does that even concern you? If I fart and it doesn't stink, will you ask 'why' for that too? You're just being an aggressor, like a grumpy old man who is never satisfied with anything. Why, why, why? No, no, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Man shut up (lol). Your arguments suck. You have no solid argument to aggress with. You completely neglect valid statements (like my response to your comment about MMA fighters being bull-headed). You make false claims by trying to twist my words out of context, even when my posts are there for everyone to see (lol). And you just plain suck at attacking me. You can't win a debate without cheating. There is no foundation in what you claim. This makes me question your skills as a martial artist. If you can't even talk the talk, what makes you think you can walk the walk? Seriously, you have no game.


Also if you want to question my skill I'd be happy to arrange a training session If you want it and we're in a realistically close enough area. Then I can see some of your style in action. And that's not a challenge to fight I don't do stupid things like that I mean simply to train I'm always up for learning


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## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Apparently you are bothered by me, enough to tell me your whole life story (lol). Dude, whatever. I used to give a crap about statistics, but now I don't really care. So what? You did all those things for real? Well good for you. Does that intimidate me? Not really. I'm proud of you for having those accomplishments in your life, that's cool. I respect that. But that's about it. I'm not bothered by you at all. I'm not even afraid of you (lol).


Haha you are hilarious why would I want to scare you. I don't want to scare  kids. You question someone's ability they're going to give you the truth you need to grow up


----------



## Headhunter

Tez3 said:


> Oh my, so many issues! Ok about you farting..it can be the sing of serious medical issues so don't trivialise it.
> 'Aggressor' it doesn't mean what you think it does, you are using it to mean anyone who disagrees with you, would you prefer sycophancy?
> 'Your arguments suck', that means you don't actually have an answer for comments made so you attack. As for 'aggress' that's just too funny. Headhunter isn't 'claiming' anything, he's replying to your comments, you don't like those answers, you don't have to, no law against it but do stop with the accusations, it's boring and boorish.
> I've no idea what you mean when you say 'cheating', that sadly is one of those phrases that sounded good as you typed it but is meaningless, one cannot cheat if one is simply writing an opinion. You also need to get over the idea that we post on here to 'win', MT isn't a competitive site, it's there for conversations and discussions not winning at who can post the most codswallop.
> As for questioning skills at martial arts, that's just hypocritical because you were the one complaining people were questioning yours! Calm down and start posting as an adult ( I take you are one and not a young kid?) You need to stop seeing this place as aggressors and defendants, it isn't.


Apparently according to him I'm trying to scare him....funny thing is I actually defended him at first. But now I'm starting to agree more with dales opinion on him


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Tez3 said:


> Oh my, so many issues! Ok about you farting..it can be the sing of serious medical issues so don't trivialise it.
> 'Aggressor' it doesn't mean what you think it does, you are using it to mean anyone who disagrees with you, would you prefer sycophancy?
> 'Your arguments suck', that means you don't actually have an answer for comments made so you attack. As for 'aggress' that's just too funny. Headhunter isn't 'claiming' anything, he's replying to your comments, you don't like those answers, you don't have to, no law against it but do stop with the accusations, it's boring and boorish.
> I've no idea what you mean when you say 'cheating', that sadly is one of those phrases that sounded good as you typed it but is meaningless, one cannot cheat if one is simply writing an opinion. You also need to get over the idea that we post on here to 'win', MT isn't a competitive site, it's there for conversations and discussions not winning at who can post the most codswallop.
> As for questioning skills at martial arts, that's just hypocritical because you were the one complaining people were questioning yours! Calm down and start posting as an adult ( I take you are one and not a young kid?) You need to stop seeing this place as aggressors and defendants, it isn't.



Well there are aggressive opinions, defensive opinions and neutral opinions then. So if MTalk isn't a competitive site, then maybe it shouldn't be promoted as such by its paying members. There is no need for aggression. It doesn't feel too good to be on the receiving end of an aggressive opinion, does it?


----------



## Paul_D

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> MMA training can be applied to SD so easily though.


It is easy to think that if you are ignorant of the realities of criminal violence, or your definition of SD is men getting into street fights.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> That being said, if you give a MMA fighter a knife, baton or a gun, what do you have?


Someone with a weapon they are not trained to use.


----------



## RTKDCMB

gpseymour said:


> That was a joke, HH.


I disagree.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Paul_D said:


> It is easy to think thatif you are ignorant of the realities of criminal violence, or your definition of SD is men getting into street fights.
> 
> 
> Someone with a weapon they are not trained to use.



Self Defense (SD) to me means the ability or skills to 'avoid' street fights. Are you suggesting that MMA fighters can't avoid a street fight? SD to me also means the ability or skills to defend oneself from an attack on the streets. Are you suggesting MMA fighters can't defend themselves on the streets? Or are you using a different understanding of what SD is entirely? And are you suggesting that a MMA fighter is incapable of using a weapon properly? Because that's what it sounds like. I mean, I don't really train with weapons to be honest. I train unarmed for the most part. But if I picked up a knife, it wouldn't make much difference. My structure wouldn't change. My technique wouldn't change. My training wouldn't change one bit. I'd still be doing the same thing, just with a knife. So again, I don't understand the point you're trying to emphasize. Please clarify. Thank you.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> Now I could train rubbish downward elbow on the chance that in self defence someone will throw rubbish double legs. But why would i?


The last time I saw a downward elbow to a fighter performing a double leg in an MMA fight, it was to the back of the head, the fighter who was elbowed immediately could not continue and won by disqualification.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> The last time I saw a downward elbow to a fighter performing a double leg in an MMA fight, it was to the back of the head, the fighter who was elbowed immediately could not continue and won by disqualification.



Last time I saw one mr downward elbow wound up on his back getting bashed.


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well there are aggressive opinions, defensive opinions and neutral opinions then. So if MTalk isn't a competitive site, then maybe it shouldn't be promoted as such by its paying members. There is no need for aggression. It doesn't feel too good to be on the receiving end of an aggressive opinion, does it?


Hey do you hear that? It's the worlds smallest violin


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> It's not a "rubbish downward elbow" if, in fact, a "rubbish double legs" shows up. That's the point. It's not a useful tool against a trained grappler, but it actually can be used against something that isn't a good double-leg. It's not waiting around for a bad double-leg to show up, it's using what works in the situation. A downward elbow is not a different thing that takes a lot of training. Most of us train elbows, anyway. And most of us are competent to deliver them downward. So, if something shows up that a downward elbow works on, I'll use it, instead of a sprawl. Why? Because the sprawl sacrifices stability, mobility, and field of view. If that's what's needed, then that's what I'll do, but I'm not going to do it against an attack where a downward elbow would work. Oh, and neither would Demetrius Johnson, I expect. If his opponent stumbled the entry to a double-leg, he might just get a downward elbow, too (though there are other options I'd rather use in most cases).



There is a difference between hitting them with someone on the fly if they have messed up and training something low percentage as your go to defence.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

Headhunter said:


> Hey do you hear that? It's the worlds smallest violin



Nah, that's not what I hear. Those are crickets chirping. That's the sound of you rubbing your fingertips together silently, because you have nothing to say. You can quote me, but you can't argue with what you quoted this time. You know I'm right. That's why you can't say anything. You say you've been doing this longer than I've been alive? Well no wonder you don't like me. That must piss you off (lol). Well get used to it friend. There's a whole generation of me out there, like it or not. That's the problem with old war vets. They're too stuck in their ways. You older guys think you just know it all. I can admit when I'm wrong. Why can't you? The world is different now. MA isn't what it used to be. In fact it's gotten better and better over the years. I'm proud to be one of the newer MAists in today's world. We've got internet. We've got access to all different kinds of training now. We can master techniques in half the time it took MAists back in the days.


----------



## Tez3

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well there are aggressive opinions, defensive opinions and neutral opinions then. So if MTalk isn't a competitive site, then maybe it shouldn't be promoted as such by its paying members. There is no need for aggression. It doesn't feel too good to be on the receiving end of an aggressive opinion, does it?



it's paying members don't promote the site as such, one poster who was bang out of order was abusive to you, the rest of us defended you, that poster is not around at the moment for whatever reason, I suspect because the mods took a hand because contrary to what you believe aggressive posting and attacks on poster aren't allowed. As for being on the end of aggressive posts, hell no, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Self Defense (SD) to me means the ability or skills to 'avoid' street fights. Are you suggesting that MMA fighters can't avoid a street fight?



Dear me, more hypocrisy, you accused a poster of twisting words and now you are doing it. shame on you (lol)



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Are you suggesting MMA fighters can't defend themselves on the streets?



No, he's not. I think you need to get out of this fantasy of 'on the street' it isn't helping your credibility. The type of people who 'fight on the street' aren't the type who come to MT, we train self defence for a reason, muggings, attacks at workplaces ( depending on job but they are becoming more common in many places such as hospital A&Es) and situations that can't be avoided. I'd suggest you don't actually know many MMA people, in fact I'm not sure you actually know many martial artists because you hold an idealised view of them.




Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Nah, that's not what I hear. Those are crickets chirping. *That's the sound* of you rubbing your fingertips together *silently*, because you have nothing to say..




I think you need to give yourself a good talking to. You may also owe Headhunter compensation for the coffee he spilt on his keyboard laughing so much at that. Come on princess go get a cup of man up and discuss things that aren't about you.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

gpseymour said:


> That's an extreme position, and doesn't contribute to the debate.



Yes, it was an extreme position, and yes, it did contribute to the debate.  The reason it did contribute is because it conveyed a specific point which was then acknowledged and understood by the person I was talking to on the topic.  It then furthered the discussion to a point where I feel we were connecting for the first time.  Win-win.



gpseymour said:


> You wouldn't get to use some of those things against someone who was subduing you without injuring you...



Yes you could.  During a 'fight' you cannot make the assumption that the person is trying to overcome you without injuring you.  If someone is trying, or has taken you to the ground the rational assumption is that they are trying to hurt you in some fashion.  Additionally, if you're armed then of course there is a weapon present in the situation.  Now we are in a deadly force situation.  Now we can go down a lot of rabbit trails with 'what-ifs' and differing laws from state to state, but the bottom line is if someone is trying to subdue you in a street fight/attack/mugging, the assumption can't be made that they are trying to do so without injuring you.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

So someone says that I said something which I actually didn't say, and that's not twisting my words. But when I ask someone what they said, I'm twisting their words. Okay, gotchu (lol). Please don't laugh with me. I wouldn't want you to break a hip. I think I might stop posting afterall. I know that's what you want. But I'm beginning to think that's what I want too. This place is a joke. I feel bad for the good folks who come here. You guys can have your lies. I'm going outside for some fresh air and a nice morning jog. Take care, grumpy old men.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I will wear that dislike GP with a smile on my face. You see that post you disliked? That's me being the aggressor.


Actually, that was you bordering on an ad hominem attack.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well there are aggressive opinions, defensive opinions and neutral opinions then. So if MTalk isn't a competitive site, then maybe it shouldn't be promoted as such by its paying members. There is no need for aggression. It doesn't feel too good to be on the receiving end of an aggressive opinion, does it?


Opinions aren't aggressive. People's actions can be, but opinions are not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

RTKDCMB said:


> I disagree.


I never said it was a funny one.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Last time I saw one mr downward elbow wound up on his back getting bashed.


That's what I'd expect more often if it's used against a proper double-leg.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> There is a difference between hitting them with someone on the fly if they have messed up and training something low percentage as your go to defence.


Agreed. But I never said I trained it as a go-to defense. I said it's a tool most of us already have, so it's something handy if it fits the situation. You may recall that you're the one who introduced the idea of a downward elbow in this conversation, not me.


----------



## Tez3

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> So someone says that I said something which I actually didn't say, and that's not twisting my words. But when I ask someone what they said, I'm twisting their words. Okay, gotchu (lol). Please don't laugh with me. I wouldn't want you to break a hip. I think I might stop posting afterall. I know that's what you want. But I'm beginning to think that's what I want to. This place is a joke.



Nope, it's a matter of supreme indifference to me whether you leave or stay, I love that you dish it out but act all sulky when you get it back ( and gently at that) Pop off to the QMs and draw out a sense of humour. It must be hard to be so righteous all the time. I'm not likely to break a hip, I have very strong bones and a sharp tongue which I haven't even had the chance to use yet. 


Another song for you.  





Still, makes a change from the kata arguments put forward by the non kata exponents.


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Nah, that's not what I hear. Those are crickets chirping. That's the sound of you rubbing your fingertips together silently, because you have nothing to say. You can quote me, but you can't argue with what you quoted this time. You know I'm right. That's why you can't say anything. You say you've been doing this longer than I've been alive? Well no wonder you don't like me. That must piss you off (lol). Well get used to it friend. There's a whole generation of me out there, like it or not. That's the problem with old war vets. They're too stuck in their ways. You older guys think you just know it all. I can admit when I'm wrong. Why can't you? The world is different now. MA isn't what it used to be. In fact it's gotten better and better over the years. I'm proud to be one of the newer MAists in today's world. We've got internet. We've got access to all different kinds of training now. We can master techniques in half the time it took MAists back in the days.



Lol this is the funniest thing I've ever read


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> So someone says that I said something which I actually didn't say, and that's not twisting my words. But when I ask someone what they said, I'm twisting their words. Okay, gotchu (lol). Please don't laugh with me. I wouldn't want you to break a hip. I think I might stop posting afterall. I know that's what you want. But I'm beginning to think that's what I want too. This place is a joke. I feel bad for the good folks who come here. You guys can have your lies. I'm going outside for some fresh air and a nice morning jog. Take care, grumpy old men.



Thank god take care little boy


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> That's what I'd expect more often if it's used against a proper double-leg.



Neither of our statements is really evidence of anything


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> Your points have some merit and some silliness.



Yes, my points do have merit.  Voice of experience.  The silliness is yours alone as you are filtering what you read through inexperience and bias.



drop bear said:


> I mean water breaks? I dont think that is a determining factor of who is going to win a fight.



Didn't say it was a determining factor, those are your words.  But it is a factor, those are my words.  In sporting competitions you have breaks between rounds.  That is a fact. There are no scheduled breaks when you're attacked in the parking lot.  That is a fact.  In competition, scheduled breaks are a good idea.  You CAN get a drink.  More importantly you can get some quick medical attention if needed and just as important, you can get advice from those that have been watching your opponent for weaknesses to exploit.  Of course you don't get that during a mugging attempt.  So don't be obtuse.  



drop bear said:


> When we look at important factors of self defence. Big ones like how to actually fight. The little ones like rules and refs and corner people are not really worth focusing on.



That is your inexperience showing, they are quite important items to discuss on this topic.  The honest fact is that you don't know anything substantial when it comes to self defense, so you don't actually know what the important factors are to discuss.  If you would stop and simply listen and learn from those that DO know then you'd educate yourself in a new area.  I've been telling you this since you first joined.  If I had interest in what you do then I'd listen to you rather than try to tell you all about it.  Since you continually try to compare something you know about, to something you have no knowledge on, you should first listen to those that DO know before going on and on about it.  



drop bear said:


> If I dont train deescalation I need to do kata?



You can't seriously be that ignorant...can you?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> .



The irony is that the song really is about the person she says is so vain.


----------



## Paul_D

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Are you suggesting that MMA fighters can't avoid a street fight?


For SD I would use Threat and Awareness Evaluation, Coopers colour codes, Target Hardening, verbal deescalation and running away to avoid a fight.

I have deescalted a Road Rage incident just using The Fence.

What MMA skills would you use?



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Are you suggesting MMA fighters can't defend themselves on the streets?


No more or no less that anyone else who trains for consensual fighting and not for SD. The vast majority of SD skill sets are non physical, and are not taught in sport fighting.   I would agree it is easy to transfer those skill to a street fight yes absolutely yes.  But agreeing to fight people on the street has nothing to do with SD.

Even when things do get physical, the skills required for consensual fighting are not an ideal fit for SD.  Can some high level elite althletes make them work, yes, but if we all had to be high level elite althletes in order to defend ourselves we may as well all just stay home.

Even if you are a high level elite sports fighter it still doesn't mean you have any of the tools needed for SD.  Miaquel Falco and Kaue Mena were very skill at consensual fighting, but had no SD skills to avoid their situation, prevent it from escalating, or dealing with multiple opponent or weapons once things did turn violent.  So its certainly not "easy".

There are of course some skills which are universal, a good punch is of course always a good punch.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> And are you suggesting that a MMA fighter is incapable of using a weapon properly?


Knives not so much as any idiot can use a knife, but he others yes.  I would much rather face an MMA fighter with a baton on the street than face him unarmed in the ring.

I know nothing about guns, but I am sure the people here who do, will tell you that an untrained person with a gun is not going to be anything like as effective as they think they will be under the stress of a live situation.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> You have talked countless times on this forum about your experience in the martial arts but no one on here has ever seen you physically do any martial arts training, demonstrate any techniques or seen footage of you competing in competitions or fighting in the street, Seems like anecdotal evidence to me.



Only if my own personal skill was the topic of the discussion. I tend to not brag about my personal abilities. Instead, I simply discuss what I've observed from traditional MA and modern MA/Combat sports.


----------



## Paul_D

Kong Soo Do said:


> You can't seriously be that ignorant...can you?


He isn't, he just chooses to be deliberately obtuse.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Neither of our statements is really evidence of anything


Agreed, in the case of my statement. Yours, however, has the potential to be evidence that a downward elbow against a double-leg can have a bad result. On its own, it's unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence, despite the reasonably reliable source, and before I could give it a lot of credence, I'd have to get details. So, as it stands it is weak evidence only really useful if it gives us a chance to look for something contrary to our expectation (which it doesn't provide), but it is evidence.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

RTKDCMB said:


> The irony is that the song really is about the person she says is so vain.


I've always loved the irony of the line, "You probably think this song is about you, don't you?"


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> A flintlock pointed at your head and fired will kill you just the same.



Yes, but an AK-47 can do everything the Flintlock can do, but better. This is why one is obsolete, and the other is one of the most common modern weapons on earth.

In the case of martial arts, consider Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj. Classical Jujutsu is for all intents and purposes obsolete at this point in history. However, people still practice it, just like people put on Civil War uniforms and pretend to be civil war soldiers. The difference of course is that those civil war actors know that they're not actual soldiers. Most classical JJ practicioners know they're not fighters (though some are fairly delusional).

Judo and Bjj are the modern expressions of the art, stripped of the issues that bog classical JJ down. Bjj in turn is free of the issues that bog Judo down.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> I simply discuss what I've observed from traditional MA and modern MA/Combat sports.


As have others on this forum, which you have often dismissed as anecdotal evidence.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Yes, but an AK-47 can do everything the Flintlock can do, but better. This is why one is obsolete, and the other is one of the most common modern weapons on earth.
> 
> In the case of martial arts, consider Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj. Classical Jujutsu is for all intents and purposes obsolete at this point in history. However, people still practice it, just like people put on Civil War uniforms and pretend to be civil war soldiers. Judo and Bjj are the modern expressions of the art, stripped of the issues that bog classical JJ down.


I'd consider a better comparison to be a revolver and a Glock 18 (fully automatic handgun). There are things the G18 can do, which are not necessary for getting off a couple (or even the entire cylinder) of good shots in defensive use. And there are some advantages to that revolver, for some situations. The G18 is clearly the more advanced weapon, but that doesn't make it inherently superior in every way for every situation.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Yes, but an AK-47 can do everything the Flintlock can do, but better. This is why one is obsolete, and the other is one of the most common modern weapons on earth.
> 
> In the case of martial arts, consider Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj. Classical Jujutsu is for all intents and purposes obsolete at this point in history. However, people still practice it, just like people put on Civil War uniforms and pretend to be civil war soldiers. The difference of course is that those civil war actors know that they're not actual soldiers. Most classical JJ practicioners know they're not fighters (though some are fairly delusional).
> 
> Judo and Bjj are the modern expressions of the art, stripped of the issues that bog classical JJ down. Bjj in turn is free of the issues that bog Judo down.


Which is a false analogy.


----------



## Hanzou

Paul_D said:


> For SD I would use Threat and Awareness Evaluation, Coopers colour codes, Target Hardening, verbal deescalation and running away to avoid a fight.
> 
> I have deescalted a Road Rage incident just using The Fence.
> 
> What MMA skills would you use?
> 
> 
> No more or no less that anyone else who trains for consensual fighting and not for SD. The vast majority of SD skill sets are non physical, and are not taught in sport fighting.   I would agree it is easy to transfer those skill to a street fight yes absolutely yes.  But agreeing to fight people on the street has nothing to do with SD.
> 
> Even when things do get physical, the skills required for consensual fighting are not an ideal fit for SD.  Can some high level elite althletes make them work, yes, but if we all had to be high level elite althletes in order to defend ourselves we may as well all just stay home.
> 
> Even if you are a high level elite sports fighter it still doesn't mean you have any of the tools needed for SD.  Miaquel Falco and Kaue Mena were very skill at consensual fighting, but had no SD skills to avoid their situation, prevent it from escalating, or dealing with multiple opponent or weapons once things did turn violent.  So its certainly not "easy".
> 
> There are of course some skills which are universal, a good punch is of course always a good punch.
> 
> 
> Knives not so much as any idiot can use a knife, but he others yes.  I would much rather face an MMA fighter with a baton on the street than face him unarmed in the ring.
> 
> I know nothing about guns, but I am sure the people here who do, will tell you that an untrained person with a gun is not going to be anything like as effective as they think they will be under the stress of a live situation.



Just FYI, self defense (deecalation, awareness, etc.) is taught at MMA and Bjj gyms.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> I'd consider a better comparison to be a revolver and a Glock 18 (fully automatic handgun). There are things the G18 can do, which are not necessary for getting off a couple (or even the entire cylinder) of good shots in defensive use. And there are some advantages to that revolver, for some situations. The G18 is clearly the more advanced weapon, but that doesn't make it inherently superior in every way for every situation.



I wouldn't consider classical MAs to be as efficient as a revolver. Again, classical MAs tend to be bogged down by multiple factors which inhibit the development of fighting ability.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> Which is a false analogy.



Nope. There's a reason TKD is abundant, but the karate and Kung Fu styles it derived from are all but extinct. One fits the modern age, and the others don't. Additionally, I would put the current best TKD practicioners in the world against those old masters from centuries ago, and I'd bet that the former would win quite handily. Just like the current Bjj champs and MMA fighters would mop the floor with Maeda and the early Gracies.

In short, older isn't always better.


----------



## JP3

drop bear said:


> Good self defence is a bunch of techniques that you are most likley to pull off not ones you are not likley to pull off unless unless.



In all the above back and forth, I think this is the single statement I can agree with the most.

I think we can all agree that "What you train is what you do when called upon to  have to do it." SD, MMA, streetfight, Passenger 57, Carjacking, etc. You would want to be able to fit what is happening through the prism of yur training and see through that prism to something you have "done before."  And... done before preferably very well, over a thousand times.  If not, what you come up with is going to be less distance from the left end of the below continuum than to the right end:

THAT DID NOT WORK ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  THAT WORKED EXACTLY RIGHT

In the above, it's way better to be Right than left.

I love slipping in political commentary into my posts. Apologies if you didn't find it amusing, I sure did.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Just FYI, self defense (deecalation, awareness, etc.) is taught at MMA and Bjj gyms.



No, in some BJJ gyms perhaps but certainly not even most. Not in MMA gyms.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> In short, older isn't always better.


Newer isn't always better and old is not always obsolete.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Again, classical MAs tend to be bogged down by multiple factors which inhibit the development of fighting ability.


Depends on the art and how it is taught.


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Just FYI, self defense (deecalation, awareness, etc.) is taught at MMA and Bjj gyms.


Just an FYI in most gyms it's absolutely not taught


----------



## Tez3

In the end it's comes down to the syllabus taught and the instructors teaching it not the 'age of the art'. I've seen good and bad in most styles, yes, that includes MMA and BJJ, how can it not when the teaching is performed by humans not robots programmed to be teach the same every time, all the time.
No amount of 'my style is best' is going to be true, however 'my style is best *for me'* yes that certainly can be so.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> Just an FYI in most gyms it's absolutely not taught



It's taught in nearly all Gracie affiliated gyms, it's taught in Gracie Barra gyms, it's taught in 10th Planet Bjj gyms, and it's taught in a good portion of sport Bjj gyms. That would constitute the majority of Bjj gyms.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> No, in some BJJ gyms perhaps but certainly not even most. Not in MMA gyms.



I don't how you guys do it across the pond, but here in the states, you'd be hard pressed to find a legit MMA gym that doesn't offer self defense for women. It's pretty big business over here, and most gyms aren't going to pass up on that money.


----------



## JP3

FriedRice said:


> Probably not hate, but just not the free respect that the TMA'ists used to get when they say they're a Black Belt in whatever, like it often was in the Pre-UFC days.  People saw what happened in UFC 1-4 and even 5-15 or so....then it started to filter down to BJJ + Muay Thai, or die.


I agree with the history, but I'd actually bring in what Drop & KangSooDo were talking about in that other thread about the training.

Prior to UFC, very few, and I mean Very Few people actually trained to get in a ring with another bad dude, or lady, and attempt to defeat said other bad dude/lady witht a set of skills that the other person also knew or was likely to know.

UFC was a fight laboratory, plain and simple.  I do not carry that to the premise that you did there, Fried Rice, though I agree with the outcome, that in the UFC you had better have had some serious BJJ with Muay Thai training or you were going to be pasted.... Rather, I think that BJJ regular rolling full-tilt boogie lends itself seamlessly witht he UFC style of fighting.

Let's not forget that the Gracie's invented the entire concept of the UFC... and what did they do regularly? Fight just like the UFC at home in Brazil.  So that's the grappling side.
On the striking side, Muay Thai is as close a parallel to the type of training that BJJ uses on the ground when translated to a stand-up striking art, i.e. it's all about conditioning, lots and lots and lots of sparring work at high intensity, etc.

What I think is, that if you could get a Wing Chun school (I just pulled them out of the hat because so many of y'all seem to either be, like, or like to talk about WC folks) to train what they do as if they were Always and Only going to be "Duelling" in a ring, or Octagon, or box or cube or parking garage, or emptied out swimming pool (Lionheart, hey... I enjoyed the JCVD movies, cheese sauce and all)  with the steady feedback of the trainers (I sort of think that this is/was Yip Man's method, eh?) you'd end up with some very formidable UFC competitors. We already know it doesn't Have to be BJJ, it could just be plain old Judo (see Ronda's success, eh?) and I'd bet that if you took a physical specimen such as a Spetnaz, gave him the mission parameters of the UFC duel thing, he could bring Sambo and Systema to bear in a very effective way.

TO Drop's ever-pervasive point which he thinks, incorrectly, that we all dispute, it is "Training over technique."  

Train Right, Do Right.  (Maybe I should have stuck a Daniel-san on that, but it's not Miyagi's quote, it's mine so there.)


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Thread drift...but wasn't she singing about Warren Beatty?  Thought I remember that from somewhere back in the day...


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> I don't how you guys do it across the pond, but here in the states, you'd be hard pressed to find a legit MMA gym that doesn't offer self defense for women. It's pretty big business over here, and most gyms aren't going to pass up on that money.



That is not an endorsement, in fact it proves the point I made on a thread about women's self defence. The self defence taught in the vast majority of these classes is pointless, dangerous and extremely misleading. It makes most knowledgeable female martial artists quite angry. It's all about the money and that is disgusting.


----------



## CB Jones

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> *There's a whole generation of me out there, like it or not.*



Millenials.....


----------



## JP3

drop bear said:


> Now I could train rubbish downward elbow on the chance that in self defence someone will throw rubbish double legs. But why would i?



To be aware that it is there?  Just thinking. I take your point to mean that, examining probabilities of success is the method with which you're going to evaluate what yu are going to learn... or maybe not to learn, because you did mention it so you already know it is there, but to train it. And by train it, I mean drill it in class repetitively until it's a core thing.  I can get behand that idea... up tot he point when I've got to face omeone who knows my tendencies and has a plan in place for me.

I'll give you that it's not likely to happen in a bar brawl situation, but it has happened to me really quickly at judo tournmants, so it ould happen anytime someone has a chance to watch you move duing a match/confrontation, etc. Just something to think about.  I found out the hard way that I had a holdover from my TKD days in that I would fight southpaw even though right-handed and right leg/kick dominant.... BECAUSE of the right leg/kick dominance, faster/higher/better control. Al the things you'd like to have in a TKD tournament, get the fastest thing forward if for no other reason than to keep that other fast-mover away from you.

But then that means that you step forward right leg first. Or perhaps I'll put it this way... You Advance your right Foot.  Add one more word and you've got my now favorite (for this precise reason) ashi-waza, Deashi-barai. Advanced Foot Sweep.  Second match of the Brown Belt Championships in Texas at A&M some years ago, 2nd match of the day and a guy who'd watched my first match saw what I did, waited for it, and sent me off to the consolation bracket to fight for an eventual 3rd.  Nice guy, as judoka usually are. I hunted him up after the tournament and he told me he'd spotted the above tendency and planned to use it if I stepped as I had, and sure enough, I stepped on the invisible banana peel. Splat! Ippon! Ack. Ugh. Shame. Pout.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> That is not an endorsement, in fact it proves the point I made on a thread about women's self defence. The self defence taught in the vast majority of these classes is pointless, dangerous and extremely misleading. It makes most knowledgeable female martial artists quite angry. It's all about the money and that is disgusting.



Well that isn't something you can place only on MMA gyms, that's something you see in just about every MA dojo or gym. I would argue that at least in the MMA gym the woman is learning competent fighting skills.


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> It's taught in nearly all Gracie affiliated gyms, it's taught in Gracie Barra gyms, it's taught in 10th Planet Bjj gyms, and it's taught in a good portion of sport Bjj gyms. That would constitute the majority of Bjj gyms.


Nope because I trained at a Gracie Barra gym for a yeah and not once ever was anything like that taught. Try again


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I wouldn't consider classical MAs to be as efficient as a revolver. Again, classical MAs tend to be bogged down by multiple factors which inhibit the development of fighting ability.


I disagree with that as a blanket statement, but you and I already knew we had that difference of opinion.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Nope. There's a reason TKD is abundant, but the karate and Kung Fu styles it derived from are all but extinct. One fits the modern age, and the others don't. Additionally, I would put the current best TKD practicioners in the world against those old masters from centuries ago, and I'd bet that the former would win quite handily. Just like the current Bjj champs and MMA fighters would mop the floor with Maeda and the early Gracies.
> 
> In short, older isn't always better.


I don't think I've heard anyone say "older is better" in this thread. And comparing people from a century ago to people from today is not the same as comparing old arts to new arts. I think top-level Judoka from today would also mop the floor with top-level Judoka from decades ago. The same might be true of striking arts, but I'm less familiar with them. Most arts do actually progress, even as some hold traditional training methods.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JP3 said:


> In all the above back and forth, I think this is the single statement I can agree with the most.
> 
> I think we can all agree that "What you train is what you do when called upon to  have to do it." SD, MMA, streetfight, Passenger 57, Carjacking, etc. You would want to be able to fit what is happening through the prism of yur training and see through that prism to something you have "done before."  And... done before preferably very well, over a thousand times.  If not, what you come up with is going to be less distance from the left end of the below continuum than to the right end:
> 
> THAT DID NOT WORK ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  THAT WORKED EXACTLY RIGHT
> 
> In the above, it's way better to be Right than left.
> 
> I love slipping in political commentary into my posts. Apologies if you didn't find it amusing, I sure did.


Amusing, if not quite right.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I don't how you guys do it across the pond, but here in the states, you'd be hard pressed to find a legit MMA gym that doesn't offer self defense for women. It's pretty big business over here, and most gyms aren't going to pass up on that money.


Okay, but that's not nearly the same thing as SD training being a part of what's taught to the MMA practitioners training there. I assume some MMA gyms do that, too, but I also know some MMA folks actually are proud that it's not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thread drift...but wasn't she singing about Warren Beatty?  Thought I remember that from somewhere back in the day...


I've also heard that she was singing about Mick Jagger.


----------



## JP3

RTKDCMB said:


> They are not exactly the same. Kata is a lot more technical.



Generally agree, but witht he caveat that there are different ways to look at kata and how to do kata.

I can conceive of a shadow-boxing kata, certainly. I used to call it drilling, but same-same. Repetitive training practice for muscle memory and fluidity and relaxed power.

Left foot forward, fighting stance you prefer: Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut.  There you go, kata 1, done. Pretty short but hey, I wrote it so I can make it as long or as short as I want.

I can work that as repetitive training, and I can do it into focus mitts held by a partner or in the air. The partner can hold the target pads steady or move them around (my preference so targeting becomes ingrained instead of "A Target")... or I can do them in the air to just work speed.

Or I can go all technical bonkers and do them super slow, analyzing the techniques as they leave boxing guard (or whatever guard) and move towards the target point, looking at the strike itself, examinging my posture and body/hip/leg drive on each, seeing where I inevitably leave myself open so as to strike the opponent.

It's all the same onion.


----------



## JP3

RTKDCMB said:


> You have talked countless times on this forum about your experience in the martial arts but no one on here has ever seen you physically do any martial arts training, demonstrate any techniques or seen footage of you competing in competitions or fighting in the street, Seems like anecdotal evidence to me.


Uh... the same could be said for most of us.  I don't post my stuff because:

A.  I'm a lazy poster;
B.  Nobody would get the jokes I tell during class because they are in-class history driven; 
C.  I'm sure I'd get called out on my inability, choice actually, to no longer kick above my, or other's, heads.   Well, this last assumes that I've yet to bring them down to where it's way easier; and
D.  I've got no desire to read comments about, "Wow, man. Surprising you can move so well carrying all that around with you."


----------



## JP3

Ironbear24 said:


> You mustn't know very many. I met assholes in many styles.


I remove assholes from my presence, or myself from theirs.

It reduces hypertension.  Walking away from drama-starters is a fantastic way to make yourself feel better.  I wish my wife would have introduced me to this concept in my 20s.


----------



## JP3

Tez3 said:


> ONE:  slavering rabid bunnies over dandelions on the lawn
> 
> TWO:  patent numpties



I am SO Glad I had put my coffee down prior to reading that!  Do you know how bad it hurts to shoot hot coffee out your nose? Catastrophic Disaster Averted!

I love the English sense of humor/humorous sayings.

... slavering rabid bunnies.... Brilliant.


----------



## JP3

Headhunter said:


> Pretty much my problem with the guy. He acts like everyone here wants to fight each other and he's the doe eyed innocent who gets bullied when quite honestly he's caused a lot of problems here himself. His first post here was telling us about a brand new style he invented of course he's going to get crisisism. No one here agrees on anything and that's fine I'm sure loads of people here disagree with me and that's perfectly fine I'm not going to cry about it. That's life


Agreed, though I usually try to ask them why.  I could possibly learn something useful.  The whole "No man is so ignorant that I may not learn something from him," thing.  Is that Ben Franklin? I forget.

But... in this particular case, I get it. No need to ask.


----------



## CB Jones

JP3 said:


> I remove assholes from my presence, or myself from theirs.
> 
> It reduces hypertension.  Walking away from drama-starters is a fantastic way to make yourself feel better.  I wish my wife would have introduced me to this concept in my 20s.



Just remember

If you meet an ******* in the morning....you met an *******.

If most of the people you meet you think are assholes...chances are...you're the *******.


----------



## FriedRice

JP3 said:


> Prior to UFC, very few, and I mean Very Few people actually trained to get in a ring with another bad dude, or lady, and attempt to defeat said other bad dude/lady witht a set of skills that the other person also knew or was likely to know.



Probably because there was a decent to a lot of money to be made, peddling Asian martial art myths, Asian mysticism and other Asian fetishes if most to all of the arts, never mingled in competition, especially not the Striker vs. Grappler types. Now I'm not against having Asian fetishes, but it was the "I'm super deadly" fakery that I was glad, being exposed Because at that time in 1994 or so, I was like most anyone else, who thought all of those Kung-Fu masters with long white beards, Karate choppers, etc. were untouchable.



> UFC was a fight laboratory, plain and simple.
> 
> Let's not forget that the Gracie's invented the entire concept of the UFC... and what did they do regularly? Fight just like the UFC at home in Brazil.



The Gracie didn't really invent this concept of the UFC, they were just the A-Holes that said to everyone in the MA community, to "backup your mouth"...."open or closed doors, no rules" = Vale Tudo. Yes, the Gracies were trying to make a name for themselves and promote their BJJ, but was this wrong? Maybe against some set standards of Asian Honor, set up by some Western Asian fetishists, but us Asians, loves this pitting of style vs. style for glory and national pride. Another well known A-Hole who took this similar route was, Bruce Lee....who went around picking fights to make a name for himself, including dropping some old man who was merely demonstrating Tai Chi (by punching him for real).  Bruce Lee even posted flyers all over, challenging people to fight  = that famous fight with Jack Man Wong. Sure, after he got famous was when he and his publicists cleaned up his image.


----------



## FriedRice

Paul_D said:


> For SD I would use Threat and Awareness Evaluation, Coopers colour codes, Target Hardening, verbal deescalation and running away to avoid a fight.
> 
> I have deescalted a Road Rage incident just using The Fence.
> 
> What MMA skills would you use? .



Translation into "Non-Tactical" terminology.....you talked to the guy who was road raging, in trying to get him to not punch you and if that didn't work, you'd run.

MMA skills we use is to wear TapOut clothing all year round. The clothes does the talking for me. Nobody bothers me.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Yet many succeed without neither. I look at like this. Are you training like an MMA fighter ? If the answer is no, they you will never be one.
> 
> Are you training to be a kick boxer? A karateka? A Judoka? If yes then you will be those, if not then you won't. If you wish to be a good martial artist then train like one, same concept.




It depends on what you're aiming for. Just don't expect free, pre-UFC 01 respect, just because you're a Black Belt in something.


----------



## CB Jones

FriedRice said:


> TapOut clothing



What we call Mouth Breather Jerseys


----------



## Paul_D

JP3 said:


> Prior to UFC, very few, and I mean Very Few people actually trained to get in a ring with another bad dude, or lady, and attempt to defeat said other bad dude/lady witht a set of skills that the other person also knew or was likely to know.


Define very few.  Boxing, Ju-Jitsu, various styles of Karate, TKD, styles of wrestling.  I think wrestling competitions are the staple of most US universities, Sumo wrestling has been taking place in Japan for how many years with how many competitors, Mudo has been in the Olympics, and pretty much any art with a sporting sIde have all had competion fighting for decades.


----------



## Steve

This whole thread rwminds me of the old Reeses Peanut Butter cup commercials.  I keep expecting GPSeymour to say, "Hey!! You got your MMA in my TMA!"


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> This whole thread rwminds me of the old Reeses Peanut Butter cup commercials.  I keep expecting GPSeymour to say, "Hey!! You got your MMA in my TMA!"


Posts like that make up for all of the ones I disagree with you on, Steve. And they are perhaps why we get along.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> Nope because I trained at a Gracie Barra gym for a yeah and not once ever was anything like that taught. Try again



Oh? Which one did you train at?


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Okay, but that's not nearly the same thing as SD training being a part of what's taught to the MMA practitioners training there. I assume some MMA gyms do that, too, but I also know some MMA folks actually are proud that it's not.



Agreed. I was merely pointing out that SD training can be found at some MMA gyms, and the majority of Bjj schools, much to the contrary of many in this thread.


----------



## FriedRice

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> This is so true, it's not even funny. You know, a few martial artists on MTalk were extremely critical about one particular picture I showed of me holding my elbow in a way that seemed strangely ackward to them. I got some pretty ruthless comments about it (lol). It's all good though. What most of them didn't get to see was the motion behind the elbow or the reason for it. ."




I'd like to see that picture. Link?


----------



## FriedRice

Paul_D said:


> It is easy to think that if you are ignorant of the realities of criminal violence, or your definition of SD is men getting into street fights.
> 
> 
> Someone with a weapon they are not trained to use.




Don't forget the important part of not being able to rattle off all the "tactical terminologies" neither. Then there's the all purpose, camou, tactical pants and tactical boots. Who cares about ruining thousands of dollars in mats, right?


----------



## Ironbear24

Steve said:


> This whole thread rwminds me of the old Reeses Peanut Butter cup commercials.  I keep expecting GPSeymour to say, "Hey!! You got your MMA in my TMA!"



So what you are saying is when they come together you get something magical?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Agreed. I was merely pointing out that SD training can be found at some MMA gyms, and the majority of Bjj schools, much to the contrary of many in this thread.


People like to use the term "SD" to show they are better person than others. When your fist meets on your opponent's face, Whether you want to call it SD or fighting, it will make no difference.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> It depends on what you're aiming for. Just don't expect free, pre-UFC 01 respect, just because you're a Black Belt in something.



And it never should have, a black belt isn't magic and doesn't give special powers. Admiration should be earned through performance and capabilities.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> MMA skills we use is to wear TapOut clothing all year round. The clothes does the talking for me. Nobody bothers me.



Is this sarcasm because when most people see a tapout shirt the first thing that comes to mind is douche bag.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Well that isn't something you can place only on MMA gyms, that's something you see in just about every MA dojo or gym. I would argue that at least in the MMA gym the woman is learning competent fighting skills.



Oh because competent fighting skills will help when a rapist tells you not to fight back because he'll kill your children otherwise? Learning how to defend yourself as a woman is so much more than just 'fighting skills'.
Some MMA gyms I know of aren't worth anything, they don't teach decent skills for competition let along fighting skills for self defence, yes there's some TMA places that don't teach properly but as I said it's down to the instructors and their skills not the style. I know an appalling MMA 'coach' who tries to put fighters in promotions but no one will have them because they have such poor skills they will get hurt. This is solely the 'coach's' fault not MMAs. That's how it goes, that's life. It's no good telling us how brilliant MMA is compared to TMA and vice versa it's down to the instructors, if they are pants then their students will be too, remember there's no bad students only bad instructors.


----------



## Buka

Ironbear24 said:


> And it never should have, a black belt isn't magic and doesn't give special powers. Admiration should be earned through performance and capabilities.



A friend of mine has a magic black belt with special powers. It makes him invisible.
I'll bet you've never seen him.


----------



## CB Jones

First thing new black belts do at our dojo is to be bitten by a radioactive spider.  And that where they get their power


----------



## drop bear

JP3 said:


> In all the above back and forth, I think this is the single statement I can agree with the most.
> 
> I think we can all agree that "What you train is what you do when called upon to  have to do it." SD, MMA, streetfight, Passenger 57, Carjacking, etc. You would want to be able to fit what is happening through the prism of yur training and see through that prism to something you have "done before."  And... done before preferably very well, over a thousand times.  If not, what you come up with is going to be less distance from the left end of the below continuum than to the right end:
> 
> THAT DID NOT WORK ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  THAT WORKED EXACTLY RIGHT
> 
> In the above, it's way better to be Right than left.
> 
> I love slipping in political commentary into my posts. Apologies if you didn't find it amusing, I sure did.



By the way there are two sides to politics. Moderates and nut jobs. 

There are plenty of TMA, s that can make their junk work.  It is not TMA I have an issue with. It is the dishonesty in training that riles me.


----------



## Buka

I've always been the luckiest person I've ever known. I know a bunch of Traditional schools, but I've not known one that has dishonesty, or more important in my opinion, naivety, in their training methods.

I have absolutely no doubt there are plenty that do, I just don't know them.


----------



## drop bear

JP3 said:


> To be aware that it is there?  Just thinking. I take your point to mean that, examining probabilities of success is the method with which you're going to evaluate what yu are going to learn... or maybe not to learn, because you did mention it so you already know it is there, but to train it. And by train it, I mean drill it in class repetitively until it's a core thing.  I can get behand that idea... up tot he point when I've got to face omeone who knows my tendencies and has a plan in place for me.
> 
> I'll give you that it's not likely to happen in a bar brawl situation, but it has happened to me really quickly at judo tournmants, so it ould happen anytime someone has a chance to watch you move duing a match/confrontation, etc. Just something to think about.  I found out the hard way that I had a holdover from my TKD days in that I would fight southpaw even though right-handed and right leg/kick dominant.... BECAUSE of the right leg/kick dominance, faster/higher/better control. Al the things you'd like to have in a TKD tournament, get the fastest thing forward if for no other reason than to keep that other fast-mover away from you.
> 
> But then that means that you step forward right leg first. Or perhaps I'll put it this way... You Advance your right Foot.  Add one more word and you've got my now favorite (for this precise reason) ashi-waza, Deashi-barai. Advanced Foot Sweep.  Second match of the Brown Belt Championships in Texas at A&M some years ago, 2nd match of the day and a guy who'd watched my first match saw what I did, waited for it, and sent me off to the consolation bracket to fight for an eventual 3rd.  Nice guy, as judoka usually are. I hunted him up after the tournament and he told me he'd spotted the above tendency and planned to use it if I stepped as I had, and sure enough, I stepped on the invisible banana peel. Splat! Ippon! Ack. Ugh. Shame. Pout.



You get the same in all systems. All these super clever submissions or moves that you can pull off but probably never will.

Look at MMA and the showtime kick. It works but it is very situational.

But for self defence because of the risk i am an advocate of fighting in as conservative manner as i can. Take as few risks as i can.  

So I dont trade an elbow for winding up fighting off my back.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Oh because competent fighting skills will help when a rapist tells you not to fight back because he'll kill your children otherwise?



If you decide to ignore his threats and fight back?

Yep.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> I've always been the luckiest person I've ever known. I know a bunch of Traditional schools, but I've not known one that has dishonesty, or more important in my opinion, naivety, in their training methods.
> 
> I have absolutely no doubt there are plenty that do, I just don't know them.



I have done plenty. And I have gone out and tried all the famous theorys on scumbags.

A lot of them are more of a cool idea rather than a viable method.


----------



## Ironbear24

Tez3 said:


> Oh because competent fighting skills will help when a rapist tells you not to fight back because he'll kill your children otherwise? Learning how to defend yourself as a woman is so much more than just 'fighting skills'.
> Some MMA gyms I know of aren't worth anything, they don't teach decent skills for competition let along fighting skills for self defence, yes there's some TMA places that don't teach properly but as I said it's down to the instructors and their skills not the style. I know an appalling MMA 'coach' who tries to put fighters in promotions but no one will have them because they have such poor skills they will get hurt. This is solely the 'coach's' fault not MMAs. That's how it goes, that's life. It's no good telling us how brilliant MMA is compared to TMA and vice versa it's down to the instructors, if they are pants then their students will be too, remember there's no bad students only bad instructors.



It's hanzou, MMA can do no wrong.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> That is not an endorsement, in fact it proves the point I made on a thread about women's self defence. The self defence taught in the vast majority of these classes is pointless, dangerous and extremely misleading. It makes most knowledgeable female martial artists quite angry. It's all about the money and that is disgusting.



Yeah.  It is a glaring red flag on the argument of context and specific training.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> It's hanzou, MMA can do no wrong.



Cheap emotional hypothetical. There are always situations you can't fight your way out of. 

They don't prove anything.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> It's hanzou, *Bjj* can do no wrong.



Fixed that for you.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Fixed that for you.



Then you truly are lost Anakin.


----------



## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> Just an FYI in most gyms it's absolutely not taught



There is as much experience and expertise in real street encounters in a MMA gym as there is in a dedicated self defence gyms. 

To suggest that deescalation is some sort of skill you can only aquire in a self defence gym is the same as suggesting that you can only aquire women's self defence from a women's self defence course.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu

_"Oh because competent fighting skills will help when a rapist tells you not to fight back because he'll kill your children otherwise?"_

I wasn't going to respond to anything that anyone said on here any more, but then I saw this statement and it brought back memories and flashbacks. I'm now curious. All that other ******** aside that all you people talk about, has anyone here actually been in that situation in real life, not just talking about it? Anyone? Because I know that I have. I remember it like it was yesterday. I can tell you right now from personal experience who here knows what the love they're talking about, and who does not. All those theories and training methods, and MMA vs TMA and SD principles, and all that other ********, is just that, ********. But whatever. I'm not going to call anyone out, because doing so would be pointless. I'm not going to argue with symantecs. I just felt really touched by this statement. For a brief second, I thought I heard someone say something that was actually truthful and untwisted for once. But I digress. My morning jog was quite relaxing. I ran 5 miles today, and now I'm going to lift some weights for a little bit. Have fun with your discussions. Don't ask me for ****.

Oh and just a couple days ago actually, my family was interviewed by a local news reporter in regards to that incident, which happened many years ago. Even now, I still choke up when I talk about it. You'll be either happy or indifferent to know that my family is safe, and the attacker is dead. Don't ask. You wouldn't believe me anyway. It doesn't matter.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> If you decide to ignore his threats and fight back?
> 
> Yep.



Are you a woman, if not, then you actually have no bloody idea.


----------



## Tez3

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> has anyone here actually been in that situation in real life, not just talking about it?



You will find quite a lot of us have had to deal with a lot of situations that have left scars mental and physical.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Are you a woman, if not, then you actually have no bloody idea.



Tez seriously stop it.  You are not presenting an argument. 

You are just trying to emotionaly blackmail people.  

You think this makes Hanzou look like the bad guy.  But it actually make you look like one.


----------



## drop bear

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> _"Oh because competent fighting skills will help when a rapist tells you not to fight back because he'll kill your children otherwise?"_
> 
> I wasn't going to respond to anything that anyone said on here any more, but then I saw this statement and it brought back memories and flashbacks. I'm now curious. All that other ******** aside that all you people talk about, has anyone here actually been in that situation in real life, not just talking about it? Anyone? Because I know that I have. I remember it like it was yesterday. I can tell you right now from personal experience who here knows what the love they're talking about, and who does not. All those theories and training methods, and MMA vs TMA and SD principles, and all that other ********, is just that, ********. But whatever. I'm not going to call anyone out, because doing so would be pointless. I'm not going to argue with symantecs. I just felt really touched by this statement. For a brief second, I thought I heard someone say something that was actually truthful and untwisted for once. But I digress. My morning jog was quite relaxing. I ran 5 miles today, and now I'm going to lift some weights for a little bit. Have fun with your discussions. Don't ask me for ****.
> 
> Oh and just a couple days ago actually, my family was interviewed by a local news reporter in regards to that incident, which happened many years ago. Even now, I still choke up when I talk about it. You'll be either happy or indifferent to know that my family is safe, and the attacker is dead. Don't ask. You wouldn't believe me anyway. It doesn't matter.



I was yelled at once.

If I am going to pull up Tez for emotional blackmail it is only fair I do you as well.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Are you a woman, if not, then you actually have no bloody idea.



How is that relevant?

Again, IF a woman decides to fight back against her attacker, having competent fighting skills would be a benefit. Let's stay on topic please.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> How is that relevant?
> 
> Again, IF a woman decides to fight back against her attacker, having competent fighting skills would be a benefit. Let's stay on topic please.



Patronise much, Captain Obvious? Please return to your 'BJJ is the best eva' shtick and leave the serious things to us.


----------



## JP3

drop bear said:


> Cheap emotional hypothetical. There are always situations you can't fight your way out of.
> 
> They don't prove anything.


What?

What do you mean they don't prove anything?

I mean, I had this dream the other night. I was wearing a loincloth for some reason, probably because my wife told me once that she'd like to see that.  Y'all don't need to think too much about that... Mental Eraser Insert Here.

Anyway, my Russian beuty got captured by this cyclops, my wife did, (yeah, I know this paints me with the Ulysses marker, so what) and this huge guy is climbing this hill and he's pointing behind him as my wife with her fantastic derriere' is totally flashing over his shoulder, and he's sending his... I think the best word is minions at me and they are all wearing ninja costumes because (I think) that's what was my prototypical "Bad Guy" was when I was age 8 to 18 and I have to go up the trail on this hill, and the hill is mostly sand and it's hard to run uphill and these ninja guys - who are wearing different colored.... shoot I've no idea what the ninja gi is called (help me please) and these dudes and I suppose dudettes because some are smaller are running down the hill at me all deathly quiet because no one has ever heard a ninja say anything ever and I'm trying to run uphill in sand and everyone knows how impossible that is and still look cool and I'm failing miserably and here comes the first one and he launches himself in a flying kick and I'm like "Whew, that's easy" and I just touch him as he flies over and I duck and then the next one is there and he throws 3 shruriken with all three of his arms and I slip them mostly slipping as I go "Wow, really? 3 arms?" and then I'm on him and his hand is in his shirt as apparently nobody has ever dodged all all 3 and I suddenly remember "Wait! 3 Arms!" so I duck and his swing goes over my head as I head butt him in the solar plex (remember, running uphill in sand) but because of the sand it's not that effectual and all it does is move him back a pace so a quic Osoto and he goes down and on my way past I step on his neck and then the next one is there and he has his ninja-to out and it's cutting in a kesa-cut for all my important bits, which I think are important too keep intact, so I  accelerate just enough to get inside the cut which most swordsman don't expect and I think "Whoa! Lucky!" and then keep going while dragging his lead wrist with me and as he spins around I invert his wrist witht a nifty mawashi-lock I discovered and he squeals like a little girls which I find surprising because I thought ninja had vows of silence but maybe that is just the TV ones, or maybe the movie ones, I don't know and now I've got his ninja-to and I've no damn idea how to use it so I just put it out in front of me and continue running... uphill... in sand....

This dream goes on for a long, long time folks. I could keep going, but I think you would get bored.

In the end, the fantastic derriere and I end up in the cyclop's hot tub drinking his mead, so it's all good.

And guess what I learned?

It really is hard to run in sand.


----------



## JP3

Tez3 said:


> No, in some BJJ gyms perhaps but certainly not even most. Not in MMA gyms.


On this point... gently disagreed.  There are some MMA gyms that actually have reasoning, trained and sound practitioners in them, as odd as that may seem.  Rare, but they do exist.

It's not your principle Tez, but the absolutism, that I disagree with. Simply because you've not experienced it personally does not mean that restraint and common sense does not exist in all MMA gyms.

I'll grant you... it's quite rare.


----------



## JP3

gpseymour said:


> Amusing, if not quite right.


Hey.... I went to a lot of work to craft that one...


----------



## JP3

CB Jones said:


> Just remember
> 
> If you meet an ******* in the morning....you met an *******.
> 
> If most of the people you meet you think are assholes...chances are...you're the *******.


Dead. Solid. Perfect.

Agreed.

Reminds me of comedian Ron White's bit about the lady who shouted out at one of his shows near Ft. Bragg that she'd slept with all 40,000 of the troops there and they were all rotten lays....

"Maybe it's me?"


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I've always been the luckiest person I've ever known. I know a bunch of Traditional schools, but I've not known one that has dishonesty, or more important in my opinion, naivety, in their training methods.
> 
> I have absolutely no doubt there are plenty that do, I just don't know them.


I've known one of each, or two of the latter - hard to tell the difference sometimes. But all the rest I've known - both MMA and TMA - have been good people training hard when they can. learning to make their stuff work.


----------



## JP3

FriedRice said:


> Probably because there was a decent to a lot of money to be made, peddling Asian martial art myths, Asian mysticism and other Asian fetishes if most to all of the arts, never mingled in competition, especially not the Striker vs. Grappler types. Now I'm not against having Asian fetishes, but it was the "I'm super deadly" fakery that I was glad, being exposed Because at that time in 1994 or so, I was like most anyone else, who thought all of those Kung-Fu masters with long white beards, Karate choppers, etc. were untouchable..



First, I really want, no need to know, in order to respond in the right way -- at least I think I do -- how old were you in 1994?

My point starts with.... money? Do you really think there was "money" in martial arts back in the day?

Shoot, is there "money" in martial arts now?  Well, I supposes there is money, lower case "m" intended. But there is not Money. Or Dana's MONEY.  In an M.B.A. there is Money. In an M.D. or Ph.D. (depending on field, granted) there is Money. In a J.D. there "might" be Money.

But... in the fight game? Maybe in ultimate high-level boxing, maybe.... but the lifestyle trade-off to be in MMA for a living seem.... shoot... it's easier to just get a job.


----------



## JP3

FriedRice said:


> It depends on what you're aiming for. Just don't expect free, pre-UFC 01 respect, just because you're a Black Belt in something.


I don't. I just show up. It seems to work.

MMA gyms are like any other gym, all over the world. Show up. Train. Do your thing. Sweat. Probably grunt. There may be an inescapable fart, which people laugh at, it happens. Drop some kid on his head. Explain what you just did. Teach it to him, show him what he did that allowed you to do it. Do what he did, then land on your head. Laugh, get up.

Respect. Natural causative cycle. No threats, no posturing, no swelling and beating of chest necessary.  Neat, actually. Fun.


----------



## Ironbear24

JP3 said:


> First, I really want, no need to know, in order to respond in the right way -- at least I think I do -- how old were you in 1994?



He wears tap out shirts to look tough so uh, he is probably sadly in his twenties. 

DISCLAIMER

I am also in my twenties but do not do that


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> There is as much experience and expertise in real street encounters in a MMA gym as there is in a dedicated self defence gyms.
> 
> To suggest that deescalation is some sort of skill you can only aquire in a self defence gym is the same as suggesting that you can only aquire women's self defence from a women's self defence course.


The issue, to me, isn't whether it could be taught. Folks I've talked to who trained at MMA gyms said it _wasn't_ taught. It just wasn't part of the curriculum, because the curriculum was targeted at training for competition. Mind you, that's a small sample, and only from the US. As you say, there are plenty of people coaching MMA who have the capacity to teach such. Probably there are some who do.


----------



## JP3

Paul_D said:


> Define very few.  Boxing, Ju-Jitsu, various styles of Karate, TKD, styles of wrestling.  I think wrestling competitions are the staple of most US universities, Sumo wrestling has been taking place in Japan for how many years with how many competitors, Mudo has been in the Olympics, and pretty much any art with a sporting sIde have all had competion fighting for decades.


Completely agree.

But... think of the vast multitudes of people who train doing all the plethora of other things that are lumped into the huge basket we call martial arts. That's who I am talking about.  Pooh-bear taekwondo schools on every street corner (it seems) in the U.S.  I don't know if they are like that in other countries.  Judo, though failing in popularity in the U.S., is slipping dramatically in popularity because *gasp* people have to fall down (ouchie) don't train with that intensity unless they are at least a regional to national level competitor fostering school. The average karate school is FAR from being a full-contact school. Go to a martial arts tournament and watch a forms competiton if you want to see some amazing dance and gymnastics... you probably wont' see any good fighting, because it's not taught. Well... I better caveat that with "it's not been taught to the past about 200 open tournaments I've attended."

That is what I mean. That help, Paul?

BJJ, given. I'm good with that. Still only a minority on the U.S. arts spectrum/diversity.  Olympic TKD schools... maybe... depending on if they get outside the rules structure. I grant you, they hit like a truck, but they defend like tiger lilies if you don't react in their rules structure. Boxing is serious, but if they've never trained for a foot sweep or take down... meat.  Wrestlers... are interesting. Wrestlers to me seem to be able to make the mental switch the easiest, though seem to have the most limited arsenal to work... from if that makes sense. Probably the most full-tilt boogie combative sport we've got going in the U.S. right now. Actually, I'd take a competive 10th grade wrestler at the state level against a high school senior TKD guy in a scrap and I'm not kidding. I'd scare the bejeezus out of the 10th grader about those feet, do my best to teach what to watch for about weight-shifting and load-preparation, and cross my fingers and let a Benjamin ride.


----------



## JP3

Ironbear24 said:


> He wears tap out shirts to look tough so uh, he is probably sadly in his twenties.
> 
> DISCLAIMER
> 
> I am also in my twenties but do not do that


I knew you were in your 20s Iron Bear, but I am only guessing FR is in his 20s. I hate to stick people with incorrect tags.

Like I tagged Gerry as this 6'6" sort of Italian guy doing aikido, who now has a pot belly and is talking about aikido now on the down low because he can't talk about in public anymore because he talked about it way too much in interviews and in his movies which he took way too far afield from aikid itself and he got a big head and decided that smacking his uber-hot super model wife would be a "good idea" (which it turned out it never is) and now he's a deputy in Louisiana and who does that anyway....


And... it turns out that I was wrong. Steven would never admit to having bad knees.


----------



## drop bear

JP3 said:


> What?
> 
> What do you mean they don't prove anything?
> 
> I mean, I had this dream the other night. I was wearing a loincloth for some reason, probably because my wife told me once that she'd like to see that.  Y'all don't need to think too much about that... Mental Eraser Insert Here.
> 
> Anyway, my Russian beuty got captured by this cyclops, my wife did, (yeah, I know this paints me with the Ulysses marker, so what) and this huge guy is climbing this hill and he's pointing behind him as my wife with her fantastic derriere' is totally flashing over his shoulder, and he's sending his... I think the best word is minions at me and they are all wearing ninja costumes because (I think) that's what was my prototypical "Bad Guy" was when I was age 8 to 18 and I have to go up the trail on this hill, and the hill is mostly sand and it's hard to run uphill and these ninja guys - who are wearing different colored.... shoot I've no idea what the ninja gi is called (help me please) and these dudes and I suppose dudettes because some are smaller are running down the hill at me all deathly quiet because no one has ever heard a ninja say anything ever and I'm trying to run uphill in sand and everyone knows how impossible that is and still look cool and I'm failing miserably and here comes the first one and he launches himself in a flying kick and I'm like "Whew, that's easy" and I just touch him as he flies over and I duck and then the next one is there and he throws 3 shruriken with all three of his arms and I slip them mostly slipping as I go "Wow, really? 3 arms?" and then I'm on him and his hand is in his shirt as apparently nobody has ever dodged all all 3 and I suddenly remember "Wait! 3 Arms!" so I duck and his swing goes over my head as I head butt him in the solar plex (remember, running uphill in sand) but because of the sand it's not that effectual and all it does is move him back a pace so a quic Osoto and he goes down and on my way past I step on his neck and then the next one is there and he has his ninja-to out and it's cutting in a kesa-cut for all my important bits, which I think are important too keep intact, so I  accelerate just enough to get inside the cut which most swordsman don't expect and I think "Whoa! Lucky!" and then keep going while dragging his lead wrist with me and as he spins around I invert his wrist witht a nifty mawashi-lock I discovered and he squeals like a little girls which I find surprising because I thought ninja had vows of silence but maybe that is just the TV ones, or maybe the movie ones, I don't know and now I've got his ninja-to and I've no damn idea how to use it so I just put it out in front of me and continue running... uphill... in sand....
> 
> This dream goes on for a long, long time folks. I could keep going, but I think you would get bored.
> 
> In the end, the fantastic derriere and I end up in the cyclop's hot tub drinking his mead, so it's all good.
> 
> And guess what I learned?
> 
> It really is hard to run in sand.



Yeah well when you put it that way........


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> The issue, to me, isn't whether it could be taught. Folks I've talked to who trained at MMA gyms said it _wasn't_ taught. It just wasn't part of the curriculum, because the curriculum was targeted at training for competition. Mind you, that's a small sample, and only from the US. As you say, there are plenty of people coaching MMA who have the capacity to teach such. Probably there are some who do.



If you can keep your head on straight during training with someone beating the crap out of you.  You already have learned to deescalate.


----------



## Tez3

JP3 said:


> On this point... gently disagreed.  There are some MMA gyms that actually have reasoning, trained and sound practitioners in them, as odd as that may seem.  Rare, but they do exist.
> 
> It's not your principle Tez, but the absolutism, that I disagree with. Simply because you've not experienced it personally does not mean that restraint and common sense does not exist in all MMA gyms.
> 
> I'll grant you... it's quite rare.



Actually I made a typo there I meant to say not in most MMA gyms *either *but then I 've been in most MMA gyms in the UK and many in Europe so not quite absolutism.

I was in a hurry, we were off to see Guardians of the Galaxy Two, well worth it, a lovely relaxing film  great fun and even a bit of a tear jerker.


----------



## RTKDCMB

FriedRice said:


> Nobody bothers me.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> If you can keep your head on straight during training with someone beating the crap out of you.  You already have learned to deescalate.


If somebody is beating the crap out of you then your attempt at deescalation has failed.


----------



## Headhunter

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> _"Oh because competent fighting skills will help when a rapist tells you not to fight back because he'll kill your children otherwise?"_
> 
> I wasn't going to respond to anything that anyone said on here any more, but then I saw this statement and it brought back memories and flashbacks. I'm now curious. All that other ******** aside that all you people talk about, has anyone here actually been in that situation in real life, not just talking about it? Anyone? Because I know that I have. I remember it like it was yesterday. I can tell you right now from personal experience who here knows what the love they're talking about, and who does not. All those theories and training methods, and MMA vs TMA and SD principles, and all that other ********, is just that, ********. But whatever. I'm not going to call anyone out, because doing so would be pointless. I'm not going to argue with symantecs. I just felt really touched by this statement. For a brief second, I thought I heard someone say something that was actually truthful and untwisted for once. But I digress. My morning jog was quite relaxing. I ran 5 miles today, and now I'm going to lift some weights for a little bit. Have fun with your discussions. Don't ask me for ****.
> 
> Oh and just a couple days ago actually, my family was interviewed by a local news reporter in regards to that incident, which happened many years ago. Even now, I still choke up when I talk about it. You'll be either happy or indifferent to know that my family is safe, and the attacker is dead. Don't ask. You wouldn't believe me anyway. It doesn't matter.



So...you tell us something then say won't tell anything...makes sense...and um why do we care how far you ran?


----------



## Paul_D

JP3 said:


> That is what I mean. That help, Paul?
> .


It does mate yes.  I'm with it now, thanks


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> If you can keep your head on straight during training with someone beating the crap out of you.  You already have learned to deescalate.


I think there's a correlation there (someone who keeps their head on straight has the capacity to stay calm, so has a chance to deescalate), but I don't think it's the whole picture. Someone being calm won't normally escalate a situation, but that won't naturally deescalate, either.

But you have a point, and it's one I've made before. Good training puts you under stress, pushes you, and consequently builds you up. All the things that help avoid victimhood and contribute to deescalation are helped by good training, even if that training never directly addresses them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

RTKDCMB said:


> If somebody is beating the crap out of you then your attempt at deescalation has failed.


I think he's talking about developing the ability to keep your head on under stress. Which, if you keep controlled and calm when you're getting destroyed in training, you're learning to do. And that makes deescalation easier.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> If somebody is beating the crap out of you then your attempt at deescalation has failed.



It depends. In training if you freak out and start a fight. It does nobody any good.


----------



## FriedRice

JP3 said:


> First, I really want, no need to know, in order to respond in the right way -- at least I think I do -- how old were you in 1994?
> 
> My point starts with.... money? Do you really think there was "money" in martial arts back in the day?
> 
> Shoot, is there "money" in martial arts now?  Well, I supposes there is money, lower case "m" intended. But there is not Money. Or Dana's MONEY.  In an M.B.A. there is Money. In an M.D. or Ph.D. (depending on field, granted) there is Money. In a J.D. there "might" be Money.
> 
> But... in the fight game? Maybe in ultimate high-level boxing, maybe.... but the lifestyle trade-off to be in MMA for a living seem.... shoot... it's easier to just get a job.



That was my point. The UFC was a God-send for most Martial Artists who sought to follow their passion by being a full time MA'ist/Fighter. There was little, if any money in Pro MA fighting back then to make a sustainable living for the average MA'ist. But the catch was, they can't BS their way into it any longer with their fancy, flowery forms and kata. The UFC exposed all of that. Then there were the Wrestlers, who had nowhere else to go other than, what, Assistant High School Wrestling Coach?  And it's still not easy to make a living today as a full time MA'ist.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> He wears tap out shirts to look tough so uh, he is probably sadly in his twenties.
> 
> DISCLAIMER
> 
> I am also in my twenties but do not do that




I wish I was in my 20's. And on a side note, I don't think that TapOut comes in XXXLL


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> I wish I was in my 20's



A few more birthdays and you'll be in your twenties.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> A few more birthdays and you'll be in your twenties.



Being closer to dying of old age is not really something that I look forward to.


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> Being closer to dying of old age is not really something that I look forward to.



Then you are a fool, I know of too many young people whose lives were cut short and deserved to die of old age not cut down in their prime.


----------



## Steve

@Tez3 , sometimes, you say some really mean things for no reason I can fathom.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> I wish I was in my 20's. And on a side note, I don't think that TapOut comes in XXXLL



Are you saying you are that big? I guess you can look it up on their website and see if they have something in your size.


----------



## drop bear

FriedRice said:


> I wish I was in my 20's. And on a side note, I don't think that TapOut comes in XXXLL



probably sell more in XXXLL


----------



## Tez3

Tez3 said:


> Then you are a fool, I know of too many young people whose lives were cut short and deserved to die of old age not cut down in their prime.



Apart from friends and colleagues killed in action over the years, two who remain in my mind were martial arts students of mine, both killed in Afghanistan, one shot, one blown up. One was 20 the other 22 and newly married. They deserved to grow old, to watch their grandchildren and to die of old age not the way they did.
Growing old is a privilege not everyone has, everyone has someone in their family who has been taken too soon, to whinge about dying in old age is to misunderstand how lucky you are to grow old.


----------



## Ironbear24

Tez3 said:


> Apart from friends and colleagues killed in action over the years, two who remain in my mind were martial arts students of mine, both killed in Afghanistan, one shot, one blown up. One was 20 the other 22 and newly married. They deserved to grow old, to watch their grandchildren and to die of old age not the way they did.
> Growing old is a privilege not everyone has, everyone has someone in their family who has been taken too soon, to whinge about dying in old age is to misunderstand how lucky you are to grow old.



I dread getting old but I also dread dying more. So I will take getting older and doing what I can to stay in good shape.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Apart from friends and colleagues killed in action over the years, two who remain in my mind were martial arts students of mine, both killed in Afghanistan, one shot, one blown up. One was 20 the other 22 and newly married. They deserved to grow old, to watch their grandchildren and to die of old age not the way they did.
> Growing old is a privilege not everyone has, everyone has someone in their family who has been taken too soon, to whinge about dying in old age is to misunderstand how lucky you are to grow old.



So complaining about getting old is a slap in the face to every person who ever died young?

you had better start jumping on a lot of posters then.


----------



## Steve

drop bear said:


> So complaining about getting old is a slap in the face to every person who ever died young?
> 
> you had better start jumping on a lot of posters then.


I want to be clear that I completely understand what @Tez3 is saying and agree with her that far too many are taken young.  But people complain (good naturedly) about getting older all the time.  CB Jones was just lamenting that he was turning 40.  I don't think he received quite the same response.


----------



## JP3

Steve said:


> @Tez3 , sometimes, you say some really mean things for no reason I can fathom.


Steve... did you miss FR's comment to Ironbear about shirt size? That'd go in the same category, imo.  I mean, XXXLL? Really?


----------



## Steve

I don't know.  If that were said to me in would have taken it as good natured ribbing.   Not the same.  Just my read.


----------



## Ironbear24

Steve said:


> I don't know.  If that were said to me in would have taken it as good natured ribbing.   Not the same.  Just my read.



It's an obvious weight joke, something he did before as well. I get if you want jump on tez for something, but ignoring the blatant obvious is just pointless. How can that possibly be in good jest?


----------



## JP3

Steve said:


> I don't know.  If that were said to me in would have taken it as good natured ribbing.   Not the same.  Just my read.


I would have, too, but that's us... but it was just inconsistent. But, as you said, that's probably only my read but Ironbear's post sort of leans my way.


I'd say it's because she's a she and she's are meaner than he's and run with that. Run, particularly, away from Tez when she reads my blatantly sexist comment even though girls are winning.


----------



## CB Jones

Steve said:


> CB Jones was just lamenting that he was turning 40.



Oh no you misunderstood.  Not lamenting.....getting older doesn't bother me at all.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that I'm immortal.....at least that is what I'm going with until proven wrong.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> Then you are a fool, I know of too many young people whose lives were cut short and deserved to die of old age not cut down in their prime.



Damn bro, relax, I didn't mean to hit a sore spot.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Are you saying you are that big? I guess you can look it up on their website and see if they have something in your size.



I see what you did there, trying hard at comedy right? lolz.


----------



## Steve

Ironbear24 said:


> It's an obvious weight joke, something he did before as well. I get if you want jump on tez for something, but ignoring the blatant obvious is just pointless. How can that possibly be in good jest?


I didn't know you were struggling with your weight.  If so, you're right.   I don't think it's the same, but certainly, if it was intended as an insult, then it's not okay.


----------



## FriedRice

drop bear said:


> So complaining about getting old is a slap in the face to every person who ever died young?
> 
> you had better start jumping on a lot of posters then.



He tries hard, especially when that came out of nowhere. Don't even dare talk about "women's rape defense" with that guy neither.


----------



## FriedRice

JP3 said:


> Steve... did you miss FR's comment to Ironbear about shirt size? That'd go in the same category, imo.  I mean, XXXLL? Really?



Oh so he can say something towards me, hypocrite? What's the big deal anyway? WWIII spark or something?


----------



## Steve

CB Jones said:


> Oh no you misunderstood.  Not lamenting.....getting older doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> Anyways, I'm pretty sure that I'm immortal.....at least that is what I'm going with until proven wrong.


well, good luck with that.  My point is, when you go out of your way looking for offense, it's easy to twist things around.

I'm kind of surprised you guys think what she said wasn't mean.   Maybe I really can't tell the difference between mean and funny.


----------



## JP3

FriedRice said:


> Damn bro, relax, I didn't mean to hit a sore spot.


You might know this or you might not... I had to find out this way too...

Tez3 is not a "Bro." And not because She" is English, either.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> It's an obvious weight joke, something he did before as well. I get if you want jump on tez for something, but ignoring the blatant obvious is just pointless. How can that possibly be in good jest?



Goodness, you said something towards me. I thought we were just having fun.


----------



## Steve

Do you think now is an okay time for everyone to let it go? 

How about now?


----------



## Steve

Now? 

What about now?


----------



## CB Jones

Steve said:


> Now?
> 
> What about now?



Wait....





Wait.....




Wait.......




Ok.........





NOW!


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> Damn bro, relax, I didn't mean to hit a sore spot.



I'm not nor ever will be your bro. Sore spot yes in some ways in other ways it's you. Your posts seem designed to get to annoy people, you've upset many on the thread about the US combatives by disrespecting the American Marines and service people ( not my words by the words but of quite a few of the posters, it's also my opinion though), that's never going to go down well. Your posts have a sneering quality about them.
Last week was Yom Ha'Shoah , my mother was the only survivor of a big Dutch family who were in the camps. Then it was memorial of one of my students, then it was Yom Hazikaron, yesterday. We are blessed if we get old, to die young is to die unfulfilled and unfulfilling.

As for the rape comments, I have had to deal with the aftermath of a few rapes, the investigation, the court cases and the lasting damage it does to people ( one was a male victim) some people are destroyed by it and one victim killed herself so yes I get pretty fierce. I don't want anyone else to get hurt, which you may think unrealistic being a 'smart' guy but it's an ideal and without ideals we are nothing. We are the sum of our experiences and people's ignorant throwaway lines that they think are smart, well, they just aren't.


On the subject of styles, all styles work, all are useful and effective however the human factor means that mistakes, ego, misunderstandings and often sheer stupidity get in the way so styles get watered down, bragged about and generally buggered about, instead of blaming styles look to the instructors and coaches. BJJ and MMA can be as badly taught as any other style, I 've seen it. There is no one panacea that gives protection, no magic style so get over it, get old disgracefully and..... Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. ( Dylan Thomas)


----------



## Hanzou

I'm forced to disagree with Tez here. Styles like Bjj, Muay Thai, and MMA in general have a lower chance of being taught poorly because there is a standard to adhere to and  practitioners of those styles tend to travel around to other gyms to practice with other people.

Can these styles be taught poorly? Sure. However, its going to occur at a much lower rate than a random Karate or Kung Fu school, because they're more than likely training in a vacuum.


----------



## Hanzou

double post.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> I'm forced to disagree with Tez here. Styles like Bjj, Muay Thai, and MMA in general have a lower chance of being taught poorly because there is a standard to adhere to and  practitioners of those styles tend to travel around to other gyms to practice with other people.
> 
> Can these styles be taught poorly? Sure. However, its going to occur at a much lower rate than a random Karate or Kung Fu school, because they're more than likely training in a vacuum.



Well of course you'd disagree, you are never going to miss a chance to put down a TMA and talk up your BJJ.


----------



## Tez3

@ Mods. The site is messing around again. You write something, think it hasn't posted and click again so there's a double post. It's happening to the threads too, we've got a couple of duplicate ones. Can you remove the duplicates perhaps?


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> I'm not nor ever will be your bro. Sore spot yes in some ways in other ways it's you. Your posts seem designed to get to annoy people, you've upset many on the thread about the US combatives by disrespecting the American Marines and service people ( not my words by the words but of quite a few of the posters, it's also my opinion though), that's never going to go down well. Your posts have a sneering quality about them.
> Last week was Yom Ha'Shoah , my mother was the only survivor of a big Dutch family who were in the camps. Then it was memorial of one of my students, then it was Yom Hazikaron, yesterday. We are blessed if we get old, to die young is to die unfulfilled and unfulfilling.
> 
> As for the rape comments, I have had to deal with the aftermath of a few rapes, the investigation, the court cases and the lasting damage it does to people ( one was a male victim) some people are destroyed by it and one victim killed herself so yes I get pretty fierce. I don't want anyone else to get hurt, which you may think unrealistic being a 'smart' guy but it's an ideal and without ideals we are nothing. We are the sum of our experiences and people's ignorant throwaway lines that they think are smart, well, they just aren't.
> 
> 
> On the subject of styles, all styles work, all are useful and effective however the human factor means that mistakes, ego, misunderstandings and often sheer stupidity get in the way so styles get watered down, bragged about and generally buggered about, instead of blaming styles look to the instructors and coaches. BJJ and MMA can be as badly taught as any other style, I 've seen it. There is no one panacea that gives protection, no magic style so get over it, get old disgracefully and..... Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. ( Dylan Thomas)



You had me at "Your posts seem designed to get to annoy people". Maybe I'll read the rest later. You just need to calm down and chill, mate?


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> You had me at "Your posts seem designed to get to annoy people". Maybe I'll read the rest later. You just need to calm down and chill, mate?



Ah dear boy, there you go again, You shouldn't assign emotions to people when reading their posts, as if people only post things that disagree with you when they are in a temper or upset. You flatter yourself that you can upset me, if I were to care what you thought then perhaps you could upset me but I don't. I offered a logical, reasoned explanation written in calmness with a cat sat on my lap. You don't like it not surprisingly. however I was looking at your posts over the time you've been here, they snarl, snark and generally are full of disdain so yes you do seem to annoy people. As I said your remarks about American Marines was bang out of order for quite a few people...understandably.
Oh and dear boy? I'm not your mate, not in any sense of the word. Enjoy your day.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> Ah dear boy, there you go again, You shouldn't assign emotions to people when reading their posts, as if people only post things that disagree with you when they are in a temper or upset. You flatter yourself that you can upset me, if I were to care what you thought then perhaps you could upset me but I don't. I offered a logical, reasoned explanation written in calmness with a cat sat on my lap. You don't like it not surprisingly. however I was looking at your posts over the time you've been here, they snarl, snark and generally are full of disdain so yes you do seem to annoy people. As I said your remarks about American Marines was bang out of order for quite a few people...understandably.
> Oh and dear boy? I'm not your mate, not in any sense of the word. Enjoy your day.


Picture or it didn't happen.  I have in mind, for some reason, a cat that looks like Winston Churchill.


----------



## RTKDCMB

FriedRice said:


> Being closer to dying of old age is not really something that I look forward to.


If I am going to die of something I'd rather it be old age.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> On the subject of styles, all styles work, all are useful and effective however the human factor means that mistakes, ego, misunderstandings and often sheer stupidity get in the way so styles get watered down, bragged about and generally buggered about, instead of blaming styles look to the instructors and coaches. BJJ and MMA can be as badly taught as any other style, I 've seen it. There is no one panacea that gives protection, no magic style so get over it,



There are distinct elements though. That combine rather than negate each other.

A good style.

A good instructor 

And good students.

Ok this is going to get a bit scattered as I have a few ideas I want to shoehorn in here.

I have a friend who wants to loose weight. She has employed a personal trainer. And is drinking coconut water eating protine bars and all these things.

She also eats chips.

And I have explained she cant have both. She has to do all of it to get the results. That is not me being mean. That is just the way it is. Now I dont care if she doesn't loose weight. I am not judging that.  I am just laying down the cause for the effect. Now what I get back is the excuses. But I train. But I dont eat fruit after 8. (I really got that one.) And even the excuses are fine. But they wont help her loose weight. There are some things you just can't cleverly argue you way around.

Martial arts is very much the same. Without all the elements you just dont get the results.

Now I put myself in the category of a bad student. I like sleep ins and pizzas. And that will hold back my martial arts progression.  Thats fine I accept that. There is no clever argument why I am actually a good student. 

Now styles inherent equality is always an interesting argument. Because we can allways find a style to beat up on regardles as to how much we subscribe to the ideal of all styles have merit.

like this internal power thread where everyone who defended all styles took a turn to jump on this one.


----------



## Tez3

There's plenty of very good authorities who will tell you that your friend's way of trying to lose weight won't work, there's a lot of different thought on which diets work and which don't so your friend may not lose weight and it won't be her fault. Much like martial arts people have their own thoughts on how you lose weight and what works for them _and everyone else is wrong!_

I never find videos convincing truth about any subject so never take them as proof of anything. One of the best BJJers in this country works in the film industry ( actually got an Oscar for his work on Les Mis) and he was telling us a while back how much you can do with film with very little effort just with editing and angles so no even home videos are suspect.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> There's plenty of very good authorities who will tell you that your friend's way of trying to lose weight won't work, there's a lot of different thought on which diets work and which don't so your friend may not lose weight and it won't be her fault. Much like martial arts people have their own thoughts on how you lose weight and what works for them _and everyone else is wrong!_
> 
> I never find videos convincing truth about any subject so never take them as proof of anything. One of the best BJJers in this country works in the film industry ( actually got an Oscar for his work on Les Mis) and he was telling us a while back how much you can do with film with very little effort just with editing and angles so no even home videos are suspect.



I tend to agree with Dr rudi. regarding weight loss.






You are pretty quick to jump on bad martial systems yourself by the way.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> You are pretty quick to jump on bad martial systems yourself by the way.



Nope, my opinion is that it's the instructors that would be 'bad' not the styles, I don't jump on any style and I stick to that.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Nope, my opinion is that it's the instructors that would be 'bad' not the styles, I don't jump on any style and I stick to that.



Internal Power of Martial Arts (Breathing Technique)


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Internal Power of Martial Arts (Breathing Technique)



It's not a martial art, it's a 'cure' for blindness they are peddling.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> Ah dear boy, there you go again, You shouldn't assign emotions to people when reading their posts, as if people only post things that disagree with you when they are in a temper or upset. You flatter yourself that you can upset me, if I were to care what you thought then perhaps you could upset me but I don't. I offered a logical, reasoned explanation written in calmness with a cat sat on my lap. You don't like it not surprisingly. however I was looking at your posts over the time you've been here, they snarl, snark and generally are full of disdain so yes you do seem to annoy people. As I said your remarks about American Marines was bang out of order for quite a few people...understandably.
> Oh and dear boy? I'm not your mate, not in any sense of the word. Enjoy your day.



Ah wise old man, you're the one flying off the handle and typing massive essays about how great it is to get old...going off into wild tangents, just because I said it's better to be young.


----------



## FriedRice

drop bear said:


> like this internal power thread where everyone who defended all styles took a turn to jump on this one.



Amazing, an Aikidoka who's willing to back up his mouth. Props to him.


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> Ah wise old man, you're the one flying off the handle and typing massive essays about how great it is to get old...going off into wild tangents, just because I said it's better to be young.



'Wise old man' eh, shows how much you know. 

I do thank you though for showing I was correct in your posting habits, and showing it's better to be old than stupid. Your latest post denigrating the American Marine Corps is a must read, tells us everything we need to know.


----------



## Paul_D

FriedRice said:


> Ah wise old man,


----------



## Hanzou

FriedRice said:


> Amazing, an Aikidoka who's willing to back up his mouth. Props to him.



He wasn't the first;


----------



## JP3

FriedRice said:


> Oh so he can say something towards me, hypocrite? What's the big deal anyway? WWIII spark or something?


Nope. Just pointing out a perceived inconsistency to Steve, with whom I spend a lot of my time agreeing.  

You're a sensitive little cuss, aren't you...


----------



## JP3

FriedRice said:


> You had me at "Your posts seem designed to get to annoy people". Maybe I'll read the rest later. You just need to calm down and chill, mate?


In my opinion, you should read more. Maybe more of Tez3's post, more books on philosophy... maybe Buddhism? That'd be a good, offsetting thought structure for you.

Or not, I guess.


----------



## JP3

Tez3 said:


> Ah dear boy, there you go again, You shouldn't assign emotions to people when reading their posts, as if people only post things that disagree with you when they are in a temper or upset. You flatter yourself that you can upset me, if I were to care what you thought then perhaps you could upset me but I don't. I offered a logical, reasoned explanation written in calmness with a cat sat on my lap. You don't like it not surprisingly. however I was looking at your posts over the time you've been here, they snarl, snark and generally are full of disdain so yes you do seem to annoy people. As I said your remarks about American Marines was bang out of order for quite a few people...understandably.
> Oh and dear boy? I'm not your mate, not in any sense of the word. Enjoy your day.



OK, I just read that post four times.... it was interesting.

First time through, I did it with something I imagine an older, lady British librarian (not saying Tez is a librarian so leave that be) saying it, which was rather soothing.

Then with a sort of Paris Hilton (remember the way she talked?) voice in my head ... that was disturbing.

And then worse of all, with a sort of Kim Kardashian vacuous vocal treatment.

And then I did it with Rocky Balboa. Bam! Perfect.  For the soliliquiy not for Tez's voice, so let that be again.

The reading of text-based communication from another person to oneself  in the privacy of one's own mind is an interesting experiment in personal security vs egoism, I've found.


----------



## Tez3

JP3 said:


> OK, I just read that post four times.... it was interesting.
> 
> First time through, I did it with something I imagine an older, lady British librarian (not saying Tez is a librarian so leave that be) saying it, which was rather soothing.
> 
> Then with a sort of Paris Hilton (remember the way she talked?) voice in my head ... that was disturbing.
> 
> And then worse of all, with a sort of Kim Kardashian vacuous vocal treatment.
> 
> And then I did it with Rocky Balboa. Bam! Perfect.  For the soliliquiy not for Tez's voice, so let that be again.
> 
> The reading of text-based communication from another person to oneself  in the privacy of one's own mind is an interesting experiment in personal security vs egoism, I've found.



The reality is actually Judi Dench as M, accent and career fits.  Occasionally Maggie Smith as the Dowager from Downton Abbey.


----------



## Ironbear24

Steve said:


> I didn't know you were struggling with your weight.  If so, you're right.   I don't think it's the same, but certainly, if it was intended as an insult, then it's not okay.



I come from a background of obese and stocky Polynesians and Hispanic people. My weight jumps up and down all the time which is one of the reasons I practice martial arts and weight lift so much.

To avoid diabetes and other complications that come with being overweight. FR's comments don't offend me but they just come off lazy. Almost like calling a guy with glasses four eyes or something, like c'mon that's just petty.


----------



## FriedRice

JP3 said:


> In my opinion, you should read more. Maybe more of Tez3's post, more books on philosophy... maybe Buddhism? That'd be a good, offsetting thought structure for you.
> 
> Or not, I guess.



In my opinion, you should read less and more realistic combat arts, maybe Boxing but not the Cardio Boxing kind. That'd be a good, offsetting thought structure for you.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> 'Wise old man' eh, shows how much you know.
> 
> I do thank you though for showing I was correct in your posting habits, and showing it's better to be old than stupid. Your latest post denigrating the American Marine Corps is a must read, tells us everything we need to know.



I rather be stupid and young, as that still gives me plenty of time to improve, unlike if I were and oldie.   And hopefully, you're as smart as you think your are . But I'd be more concerned about how fragile and sensitive that you are....seems like everything sets you off, holmes.


----------



## FriedRice

JP3 said:


> Nope. Just pointing out a perceived inconsistency to Steve, with whom I spend a lot of my time agreeing.
> 
> You're a sensitive little cuss, aren't you...



I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy. Sounds like you just confirmed  it right here.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> I come from a background of obese and stocky Polynesians and Hispanic people. My weight jumps up and down all the time which is one of the reasons I practice martial arts and weight lift so much.
> 
> To avoid diabetes and other complications that come with being overweight. FR's comments don't offend me but they just come off lazy. Almost like calling a guy with glasses four eyes or something, like c'mon that's just petty.



Hey man, I didn't mean to get personal like that with my previous comment. I was just messing around. I apologize.


----------



## Headhunter

Okay I think it's time for this thread to be locked


----------



## Xue Sheng




----------



## mograph




----------



## mograph

Ironbear24 said:


> I come from a background of obese and stocky Polynesians and Hispanic people. My weight jumps up and down all the time which is one of the reasons I practice martial arts and weight lift so much.


Just wondering -- is your diet North American or Polynesian/Hispanic? I wonder if an NA diet doesn't work with your physiology ...


----------



## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Just wondering -- is your diet North American or Polynesian/Hispanic? I wonder if an NA diet doesn't work with your physiology ...



Does the NA diet really work for anyone's physiology? My vote, after almost 50 years of eating, is no


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> I rather be stupid and young, as that still gives me plenty of time to improve, unlike if I were and oldie.   And hopefully, you're as smart as you think your are . But I'd be more concerned about how fragile and sensitive that you are....seems like everything sets you off, holmes.




Oh girlfriend, what can I say, moi fragile and sensitive? you flatterer you. I'll tell my mates what you called me, they deserve a good laugh.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> Hey man, I didn't mean to get personal like that with my previous comment. I was just messing around. I apologize.



Thanks.


----------



## Ironbear24

mograph said:


> Just wondering -- is your diet North American or Polynesian/Hispanic? I wonder if an NA diet doesn't work with your physiology ...



It's Murican . My diet is mostly proteins such as chicken but there is a lot of grains in it too. Like rice and noodles, I think that's the issue, before westernization they ate pork and fish mostly. Then westernization came and Polynesians grew outward.

The more I am able to cut grains from my diet the more weight I seem to drop, and when it comes back in my diet it comes back very quickly.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> Oh girlfriend, what can I say, moi fragile and sensitive? you flatterer you. I'll tell my mates what you called me, they deserve a good laugh.



You're welcome homey.


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> You're welcome homey.



Hear that noise? That's the sound of your humour going straight over my head.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> In my opinion, you should read less and more realistic combat arts, maybe Boxing but not the Cardio Boxing kind. That'd be a good, offsetting thought structure for you.



The majority of martial arts have realistic application, I think what you are focusing on are the art portion of them. There is kata which is more art than it is martial, but even many of the kata have within them practical applications.

For example many kata are supposed to be done very slow and deep, in a very low stance. This is to work on your legs and will make them stronger, not only does it work your legs (quads)  but also your feet along with shin muscles.

Then there is bunkai which is two person kata, this is done to understand how to block, move counter attack ect. For many places this isn't the only method used to train but just one of the many tools to train.


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## Ironbear24

Just out of curiosity what art or arts does Jp3 train?


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## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> Hear that noise? That's the sound of your humour going straight over my head.



well I was shooting on the low side, about 5 feet.


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## Xue Sheng




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## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> well I was shooting on the low side, about 5 feet.



I'm five feet four in my stocking ( black ones, I'm in touch with my feminine side) feet, and I actually didn't understand what you said, I assume it was either slang or an Americanism.


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## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> I'm five feet four in my stocking ( black ones, I'm in touch with my feminine side) feet, and I actually didn't understand what you said, I assume it was either slang or an Americanism.



If it was an Americanism...I didn't understand it either.... and I'm American


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## mograph

Ironbear24 said:


> It's Murican . My diet is mostly proteins such as chicken but there is a lot of grains in it too. Like rice and noodles, I think that's the issue, before westernization they ate pork and fish mostly. Then westernization came and Polynesians grew outward.
> 
> The more I am able to cut grains from my diet the more weight I seem to drop, and when it comes back in my diet it comes back very quickly.


I hear ya ... we know what to do, but the other stuff calls to us.

Gotta love the internet: it has everything! WHO | Pacific islanders pay heavy price for abandoning traditional diet


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## mograph

Keep 'em coming, Xue Sheng.


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## Ironbear24

mograph said:


> I hear ya ... we know what to do, but the other stuff calls to us.
> 
> Gotta love the internet: it has everything! WHO | Pacific islanders pay heavy price for abandoning traditional diet



The folks I live with brought back taco Bell and I'm like. Yeah... Not going to be touching that.


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## JP3

FriedRice said:


> In my opinion, you should read less and more realistic combat arts, maybe Boxing but not the Cardio Boxing kind. That'd be a good, offsetting thought structure for you.


Little boy, I think I had 5 years in the Thai-boxing gym in before you were born.


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## JP3

FriedRice said:


> I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy. Sounds like you just confirmed  it right here.


That's a big word and everything. Unfortunately, you are not using it correctly.  By the time you're out of 10th grade and through with English II, I'm sure the teacher will have it corrected.


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## JP3

FriedRice said:


> Hey man, I didn't mean to get personal like that with my previous comment. I was just messing around. I apologize.


That silence you hear, or don't hear actually, is the stunned amazement of everyone who just read that post.


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## JP3

Ironbear24 said:


> Just out of curiosity what art or arts does Jp3 train?



In the dim annals of history?  Well, that's a bit much since there's older guys whose opinions on here I respect... whom I shall not call out. Maybe I should say just the annals of history, as the lights are still on in that building and it is environmentally sound.

But... for now?  , I train in the unknown art of John-do.  No one, not even me, knows what it is or where it came from.

...c'mon... that's funny...

In truth, right now I'm training in judo/BJJ mix (just what we do in class) and aikijutsu with a peace officer "spin," I guess I'd call it.  It ain't all that "flowy... blending then terminating.  The cops can't be seen to punch folks so we don't do that, at least not right now.  I do remember how, though. It's hard to forget the boxing drills.  And OMG the thousands of hours of TKD kata.... Ow, now my brain hurts. Poomse poomse poomsepoomsepoomsepoomse

Sort of like the nightclub sounds, oontz oontz oontz oontz , except not as much bump & grind.


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## Ironbear24

JP3 said:


> In the dim annals of history?  Well, that's a bit much since there's older guys whose opinions on here I respect... whom I shall not call out. Maybe I should say just the annals of history, as the lights are still on in that building and it is environmentally sound.
> 
> But... for now?  , I train in the unknown art of John-do.  No one, not even me, knows what it is or where it came from.
> 
> ...c'mon... that's funny...
> 
> In truth, right now I'm training in judo/BJJ mix (just what we do in class) and aikijutsu with a peace officer "spin," I guess I'd call it.  It ain't all that "flowy... blending then terminating.  The cops can't be seen to punch folks so we don't do that, at least not right now.  I do remember how, though. It's hard to forget the boxing drills.  And OMG the thousands of hours of TKD kata.... Ow, now my brain hurts. Poomse poomse poomsepoomsepoomsepoomse
> 
> Sort of like the nightclub sounds, oontz oontz oontz oontz , except not as much bump & grind.



Ok so many arts. Sounds cool.


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## Steve

I sincerely hope you guys are smiling as you type those posts, because from the sideline, it makes me smile to read it.   As @Tez3 always says, I'm reading this as friendly back and forth, like "mates" (not in the American sense)... taking the piss with each other... errr... that just seems wrong, but whatever.


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## FriedRice

JP3 said:


> Little boy, I think I had 5 years in the Thai-boxing gym in before you were born.



But that was with the ladies doing cardio work only, right old man?


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## FriedRice

JP3 said:


> That's a big word and everything. Unfortunately, you are not using it correctly.  By the time you're out of 10th grade and through with English II, I'm sure the teacher will have it corrected.



No argument, just crying again, old man?


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## Xue Sheng

Yup, I was right


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> I hear ya ... we know what to do, but the other stuff calls to us.
> 
> Gotta love the internet: it has everything! WHO | Pacific islanders pay heavy price for abandoning traditional diet



Actually if you read "Eat Right for Your Type" by Peter D'Adamo, that makes sense


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually if you read "Eat Right for Your Type" by Peter D'Adamo, that makes sense


Mmnhm ... not sure about that one. 
Popular diet theory debunked


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## drop bear

Above is my point about diets.  You can try to remove the hard work out of it with clever theorys. But the weight doesn't come off if you do.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Mmnhm ... not sure about that one.
> Popular diet theory debunked



Never said it was science, only that it made some sense compared to...besides...you're talking Canadian science...and no self respecting card carrying American believes anything that does not come from America


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## RTKDCMB

JP3 said:


> That silence you hear, or don't hear actually, is the stunned amazement of everyone who just read that post.


That and the fact that this is a written internet forum.


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## Buka

mograph said:


> I hear ya ... we know what to do, but the other stuff calls to us.
> 
> Gotta love the internet: it has everything! WHO | Pacific islanders pay heavy price for abandoning traditional diet



Those darn Pacific Islanders porkers, they should try to eat right and get in shape like the average American mainlander.


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## Buka

mograph said:


> Mmnhm ... not sure about that one.
> Popular diet theory debunked



Key phrase in that - _"The book was a New York Times best-seller that has been translated into 52 languages and sold over 7 million copies."_

The scary thing, to me anyway_,_ is, pretty much everyone over the age of twelve, knows what healthy nutrition is.


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## Xue Sheng

Buka said:


> The scary thing, to me anyway_,_ is, pretty much everyone over the age of twelve, knows what healthy nutrition is.



Sadly that does not seem to be true, I see what my kids friends eat...and what my co-workers eat too.


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## FriedRice

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup, I was right



well they're trying hard to get the thread closed.


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## JP3

Ironbear24 said:


> Ok so many arts. Sounds cool.


It's just getting old that does it. Get up each day, look at the calendar, it is a training day, grab the gear bag or the judogi bag, whichever, and head off to the gym, training hall, dojo or wherever and get that day's training in. Day after day after day after week after week after year after year after decade. You look down and you have your first black belt and you remember that when you look down and the black belt is old, worn, frayed and not black anymore but gray.... and you wonder... I'm still doing this... and I've still got so very much to learn...

It IS cool, though. You're on your way, too.


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## JP3

Steve said:


> I sincerely hope you guys are smiling as you type those posts, because from the sideline, it makes me smile to read it.   As @Tez3 always says, I'm reading this as friendly back and forth, like "mates" (not in the American sense)... taking the piss with each other... errr... that just seems wrong, but whatever.


Agreed on the taking the piss comment.... I've a buddy from Nottingham England who was just talking and he hit me with that once while we were talking and he didn't prepare me for it. My face must have screwed up or something because he just trailed off... and was... "What?"  Then the conversation took a sudden left turn into conversational sayings, such as "When you get off of the plane in England, don't tell someone your fanny hurts."

Tez may have just shot coffee out her nose, we need to check.


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## JP3

FriedRice said:


> But that was with the ladies doing cardio work only, right old man?


Touche'!  Well played.

And of course it was... Who wants to do heavy bag work when those hotties in thongs are in their step class anyway?


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## JP3

Xue Sheng said:


> Sadly that does not seem to be true, I see what my kids friends eat...and what my co-workers eat too.


Knowing what good nutrition is, and choosing to eat the good nutrition, are not the same thing though...


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## Tez3

JP3 said:


> Tez may have just shot coffee out her nose, we need to check.



oh good grief, you're right of course!  and don't say you are carrying a fanny bag! You can say you are fannying around through, not rude, go figure.


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## Xue Sheng

JP3 said:


> Knowing what good nutrition is, and choosing to eat the good nutrition, are not the same thing though...



True, but I still doubt, with all the conflicting info out there, that many have the slightest clue as to what makes up good nutrition.


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## CB Jones

JP3 said:


> you look down and the black belt is old, worn, frayed and gray.... and you



Realize you match the belt


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## JP3

Xue Sheng said:


> True, but I still doubt, with all the conflicting info out there, that many have the slightest clue as to what makes up good nutrition.


My wife is getting on the ketogenic diet kick. She's in great shape, which I ascribe to the "Eat Clean" diet thing she normally does, Tasca Reno's book. Tosca?


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## JP3

CB Jones said:


> Realize you match the belt


Nah.   Modern technology.

Home page JFM Concierge


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## drop bear

JP3 said:


> My wife is getting on the ketogenic diet kick. She's in great shape, which I ascribe to the "Eat Clean" diet thing she normally does, Tasca Reno's book. Tosca?



Our guys are all on ketogenic. But they were not fatties to start with.


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## Ironbear24

JP3 said:


> It's just getting old that does it. Get up each day, look at the calendar, it is a training day, grab the gear bag or the judogi bag, whichever, and head off to the gym, training hall, dojo or wherever and get that day's training in. Day after day after day after week after week after year after year after decade. You look down and you have your first black belt and you remember that when you look down and the black belt is old, worn, frayed and not black anymore but gray.... and you wonder... I'm still doing this... and I've still got so very much to learn...
> 
> It IS cool, though. You're on your way, too.



Wow. Thanks.


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## eddiecharette

The 


Midnight-shadow said:


> It's funny, I was just now having a debate with someone on youtube (I know, I'm ashamed of it myself) about MMA vs TMA, where the other person was pretty much saying that TMA is useless because they spend their time practising forms instead of fighting a real opponent. I pointed out that the basic forms I practice in my TMA system are no different than the solo drills MMA fighters practice. I've seen plenty of MMA fighters walking backwards and forwards throwing basic punches as a solo drill, and guess what my first form consists of? Walking backwards and forwards throwing basic punches. They are the same.
> 
> Unfortunately I feel that a lot of MMA fighters watch the movies and the Wushu competitions and think that those accurately represent TMA forms, when they don't in the slightest. It's like watching a James Bond movie and thinking that is what being in an intelligence service is all about....


I totally agree with what you said about James Bond movies. the common perception abput intelligence services is what 007 does


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