# Wrist Grabs



## MJS (Mar 7, 2006)

What do you think about this type of attack? I've heard views from two sides, one saying that its not a worthwhile attack and others saying that it is an attack worth knowing a defense for.

Thoughts?

Mike


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## beau_safken (Mar 7, 2006)

Its good for defense, like release moves.  But if your intent in the wrist and not the head...your in for some trouble and not with your wrist.


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## SAVAGE (Mar 7, 2006)

It is a good idea to learn the concept of breaking wrist holds...say for example an aikidoka grabs your punch...your going to be thankfull that you learnt how to break that hold.

I would say that for women the wrist grab is quite a common form of attack...so ithas merit there!

I also have been grabbed in the wrist in real life situation and used a joint lock sucessfully, but it was only sucessful because I learnt the technique.

A little experiment, go grab a untrained persons wrist and see how the y struggle to break free....then see how it takes you seconds because you under stand a principle!


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## Eternal Beginner (Mar 7, 2006)

I was a waitress in a scummy little restaurant for a while.  I am very happy I knew wrist releases when I worked there.  

It was very common for the more inebriated patrons to grab you wrist and try to pull you onto their laps.  You didn't want to strike them (can you say bye! bye! to your job?) but you also didn't want to get on some slimy turds lap.  Wrist releases were a girl's best friend.


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## bignick (Mar 7, 2006)

I was just commenting to my friend the other day.

"You know, Joe, I've been doing martial arts for a few years now, and if someone tried to grab my wrists...man they'd be seriously ****ed up."


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 7, 2006)

Wrist grabs are so commen it is almost a must to know how to get out of the it is also a good idea to know how to put on a good wrist lock


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## SAVAGE (Mar 7, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> I was just commenting to my friend the other day.
> 
> "You know, Joe, I've been doing martial arts for a few years now, and if someone tried to grab my wrists...man they'd be seriously ****ed up."


 
HEHEHE...I know what you mean...I piiti da foo that grabs my wrist/arm/belt/shirt!


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## Jonathan Randall (Mar 7, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> What do you think about this type of attack? I've heard views from two sides, one saying that its not a worthwhile attack and others saying that it is an attack worth knowing a defense for.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Mike


 
For women (many sexual assaults are initiated via wrist grab) and average size adults, it is ESSENTIAL TRAINING, IMO. The ones who pooh, pooh it as an uncommon assault are generally football player types who don't have to worry about it as much as people like myself (I'm short), do.


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## ChineseKempoJerry (Mar 7, 2006)

Learning wrist grab defenses area way to teach principles that can be applied to other attacks.  Once a student understands the principles, I like to show the applications for other attacks.

Best Regards,

Jerry


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## Cujo (Mar 7, 2006)

I think that a wrist grab is a common enough "attack" that it should be given some attention. A wrist grab isn't that big a deal, unless you can't get lose from one.
Pax
Cujo


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## beau_safken (Mar 7, 2006)

Those wrist techniques are really some of the best moves honestly thou. Allows access to the best lever on the body as well as a great chance for surprise.  Not to mention their ease of teaching, and great effective nature but they are hella cool to pull off.


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## shesulsa (Mar 7, 2006)

~Moderator note:
~Thread moved to General Self-Defense
~G Ketchmark / shesulsa
~MT Senior Moderator


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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2006)

Here's an interesting thread on the need for defense against wrist grabs.

Here's a post of mine describing my daughter's interest in wrist grab defense and here's a link to surveillance footage of an actual abduction leading to the death of a young girl grabbed on the wrist/forearm.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 8, 2006)

I think wrist grabs most definitely need to be trained against, however I take a little different approach. Yes, reversing or breaking a wrist grab is important and usually the first thing we teach, but its probably one of the least effective against a full on assault. We do allot of work on disabling the grabber without putting allot of focus on the grab. For instance, a 95lb woman (like my wife) is going to be hard pressed to release a full grab by a 205lb 6' 2" man (like myself). However, if I'm really holding on that tight, my focus and energy are going to be her wrist...a nice crossing elbow to the noggin or knees to the groin, or both can be much more effective in getting me to let go than trying to break my hold. Of course my style is a very aggressive one and we tend to teach that once someone puts their hands on you.its over (for them or youyou must decide). So thats my own bias to the situation. But like someone said earlier, there can be situation where striking is out, thats when the wrist reversals and releases come in handy. You just have to feel out each situation and know which one is which.

7sm


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## Andrew Green (Mar 8, 2006)

Wrist grab defences are fine and good, how they are taught often is not.  In martial arts classes bad guys tend to do there one thing and then stand there looking dumb while the other person hurts them.

If someone grabs your wrist they are probably not just trying to hold your hand, but using it to pull, and chances are when you start fighting they will not just stand there and let you do it.

Looking at that video, he grabbed her wrist and pulled her off, make that the drill.  Grab the wrist, try to drag the person off the mat, they try to break away and run off the other side, maybe doing a little damage before the run as bigger people tend to run faster, and smaller people don't tend to grab bigger people by the wrist to drag them around.


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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2006)

Actually, the drill should be to NEVER allow ANYONE to get the full grab on your wrists AT ALL.

Yes, scenarios such as that abduction should be the basis for technique (real world situations should always be the basis for technique or self-defense drills), but the bottom line is you CANNOT let yourself get there.

I do pretty well with wrist grab escapes, but there are men who could just squeeze and break my wrist - my husband is one of them.  As soon as I sense they are even going to touch my arm or wrist, I intercept the attack.

Quick releases work better early on and before the grip is complete and/or solid.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 8, 2006)

in kenpo if somebody grabs us (wrist, shoulder, throat), the response is akin to thanking all the gods for such a fabulous birthday gift.

somebody grabbing you means they've committed one weapon and most of their attention to the grab.  this leaves us at least one weapon with which to do something horrible to them.  

once we've done something horrible to them with the free hand, then we can take the opportunity to get loose and either run away or do more horrible things, depending on the situation.

tom patire, in his book about family safety, has some additional nifty horrible things to do when grabbed.


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## stickarts (Mar 8, 2006)

We include defenses off of a wrist grab. It is a possible attack and should be covered in a self defense or martial arts curriculum, expecially because there are some simple and easy to teach defenses off of it.
I have had self defense students tell me that they have actually used both finger locks and wrist releases in self defense situations so for me it is not really a hypothetical question! :0) They have been used and worked (the true test)


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## scottcatchot (Mar 8, 2006)

I agree there are alot of reasons to learn the wrist techniques, though I have to admit.. When I first started studing aikido and I wanted to show off what I was learning, my friends and familty looked at me with a funny grin when I would thrust my hand out and say "come on grab my wrist"


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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2006)

scottcatchot said:
			
		

> I agree there are alot of reasons to learn the wrist techniques, though I have to admit.. When I first started studing aikido and I wanted to show off what I was learning, my friends and familty looked at me with a funny grin when I would thrust my hand out and say "come on grab my wrist"


Yeah, I gotta say, I still get tickled by that scene in Napoleon Dynamite:

"Grab my arm. The other arm. MY other arm." :uhyeah:


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## kickcatcher (Mar 8, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> What do you think about this type of attack? I've heard views from two sides, one saying that its not a worthwhile attack and others saying that it is an attack worth knowing a defense for.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Mike


My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel. 

Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.


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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.
> 
> Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.


I'm wondering if you watched the footage I posted upthread where a girl was abducted using a wrist grab?


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## Brother John (Mar 8, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> What do you think about this type of attack? I've heard views from two sides, one saying that its not a worthwhile attack and others saying that it is an attack worth knowing a defense for.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Mike


I don't know, one way or the other, that it is or is not a "Worthwhile" attack. Intuitively I'd say it's worth it...
BUT: I don't think that the value of the techniques that deal with this attack find their greatest value in just "How To" defend against a grab, but they work as a find beginning point, a point of reference from which to learn good joint manipulation work. It's just a position from which to gain more quality vocabulary of motion, in my opinion.

Your Brother
John


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## kickcatcher (Mar 8, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if you watched the footage I posted upthread where a girl was abducted using a wrist grab?


Shesulsa

Yes, I&#8217;ve read your post but the video clip link didn&#8217;t work. Either way I&#8217;ve taken the scenario you&#8217;ve mentioned on board. It makes relevant reading/viewing for people involved in self-defence training. 

However, I do not believe it to support the training of wrist escapes in the manner typical in martial arts clubs (I&#8217;m talking the wrist locks etc). This is for several reasons not least that I am not a believer in the effectiveness of the moves against a determined and/or larger aggressor, and I believe that most are too complex in terms of alignment for an average student to pull off under the pressures of a live situation. 

In my humble opinion, I&#8217;d expect punching the attacker to be a better initial defence than attempting some form of wrist escape. Sorry if you don&#8217;t feel the same way. 

The answer is in pressure testing.


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## MJS (Mar 8, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.
> 
> Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.


 



> Shesulsa
> 
> Yes, Ive read your post but the video clip link didnt work. Either way Ive taken the scenario youve mentioned on board. It makes relevant reading/viewing for people involved in self-defence training.
> 
> ...


 
While punching the face certainly is an effective method, taking someones eye or knee is also effective, however, it does not always mean that this is the best defense.  Knowing how to control someone, is IMO just as important as knowing how to escalate your defense.  The defenses should be able to be applied on a larger, aggressive person, adding in that 'aliveness' that is often talked about.  If one can't apply their techniques under those conditions, I'd think it would be a good idea to go back to the drawing board and find out how you can apply them.

Mike


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.
> Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.


 
I know a fairly small Korean gentleman that if you tried any of this it would get you hurt and he trained and taught wrist locks and escapes. I also know an average sized Chinese gentleman that a wrist lock and/or attempted punch in the face would not be in anyone&#8217;s best interest.



			
				kickcatcher said:
			
		

> However, I do not believe it to support the training of wrist escapes in the manner typical in martial arts clubs (I&#8217;m talking the wrist locks etc). This is for several reasons not least that I am not a believer in the effectiveness of the moves against a determined and/or larger aggressor, and I believe that most are too complex in terms of alignment for an average student to pull off under the pressures of a live situation


 
I also know a Chinese Qin Na master that is fairly slight of build that would probably not agree. And I know a small Chinese Yang Style Tai Chi master I would not want to try any of this on either and he also has trained in escapes from locks of all types and applying them as well, he however is not big on punching, Tai Chi is most decidedly defensive, not offensive. But then I also have meant a Chen style master that would put a serious hurting on anyone that tried to punch him in the face, most likely with a Qin Na, fajing, kicks, strikes or any combination thereof. And then there is a Wing Chun person of my acquaintance...but I think I have said enough

To an incredibly well trained Martial artist size of opponent or attacker is fairly unimportant.


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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> While punching the face certainly is an effective method, taking someones eye or knee is also effective, however, it does not always mean that this is the best defense.  Knowing how to control someone, is IMO just as important as knowing how to escalate your defense.  The defenses should be able to be applied on a larger, aggressive person, adding in that 'aliveness' that is often talked about.  If one can't apply their techniques under those conditions, I'd think it would be a good idea to go back to the drawing board and find out how you can apply them.
> 
> Mike


Not all recipients of a wrist grab can take out a large man's knee nor effectively punch him in the face, either.


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## Jonathan Randall (Mar 8, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.
> 
> Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.


 
May I ask what your size and weight are? If you are a woman, than you should know that many assaults and abductions are initiated via wrist grab. Also, I have taught young women (teens) grab releases to the point of real proficiency. Now they are more likely to be able to ESCAPE. BTW, teaching a twelve year old to punch a 6 foot 2 inch attacker in the face as their first and last defense against a wrist grab is irresponsible and suicidal, IMO.

Just because YOUR experiences have not shown you any need for such training, does not mean that it is not valuable ore even ESSENTIAL.


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## still learning (Mar 8, 2006)

Hello, If you are not training to escape from wrist grabs? You may want to find someone who knows how?

From the singe hand grabs,double hand grabs, to learn how to escape,to strikes, and locks. Even with your arm/wrist is bent to the back of your body...do you know how to escape this?

Being grab is very common by wrist. (this is a must learn for our kids class!).

We have many different choices of moves for escaping and striking and is one of the first things we teach our new students. (Escapes and controls) and (Advance Grabs). Ten of each.

So many things to learn..so little time...they say it takes two thousand to three thousand times doing the escapes before it becomes a part of you naturally. ........got the numbers? .............Aloha

 PS: The shake hand moves? .....do you practice them?


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## Carol (Mar 9, 2006)

I wear a steel bangle on my right wrist...as do most Sikhs.

There is a spiritual reason for this, as well as a traditional reason...which are beyond the scope of the topic.

However, I consider it to be one of my "weapons", as it nearly prevents an attacker from getting a secure hold of the wrist on my dominant side.  

It can also (potentially) inflict a bit of pain on the attacker....the tighter the attacker's grab is on my right wrist, the more likely it is that the attacker's skin will be pinched by the bangle as I free it from the grasp.

Regrettably, I learned this by unintentionally injuring a fellow student.


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## MJS (Mar 9, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Not all recipients of a wrist grab can take out a large man's knee nor effectively punch him in the face, either.


 
Very true!   We have many tools available to us, but hitting the face or the knee may do nothing except make the person on the receiving end of that more angry than they already are.  I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not the biggest fan of the one punch-one kill mentality.


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## MJS (Mar 9, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Just because YOUR experiences have not shown you any need for such training, does not mean that it is not valuable ore even ESSENTIAL.


 
Well said! Thank you!


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## 7starmantis (Mar 9, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Very true! We have many tools available to us, but hitting the face or the knee may do nothing except make the person on the receiving end of that more angry than they already are. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not the biggest fan of the one punch-one kill mentality.



Thats a good point, but the reality is that if you can't attack the attacker in an effective way, I dont know that a grab release is going to be very effective either. Taking out a knee is all about strategy and angles as is most attacks. I'm am most certainly not a fan of the "one hit kill" mentality as thats pretty much opposite from my systems principles, but it doesn't have to be just one hit or punch. If you can react to the grab you can effectively throw 6, 7 or 8 attacks (strikes, knees, kicks, shoulders, etc) within the time it takes to release a grab. Also, you have acomplished two things, you have released the grab and (hopefully) ended the engagement. 

In a real self defense situation you can't worry about the attacker, you just worry about yourself, and "flipping the switch" to fighting for your life can be quite effective even agaisnt bigger attackers if you train porperly. 

Now, as has been pointed out, there are times you dont want to attack (friedn, customer) and grab releases are quite effective. But in a true life or death self defense situation, if they put their hands on you and attempt to move you or control you, simply releasing their grip may just open you up for some devistating reactions.

7sm


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## scottcatchot (Mar 9, 2006)

In my training and experience, the wrist escape is just the initial response leading into other techniques or locks/submissions. It is true that in self defense I lean toward the "whatever it takes' mentality.


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## DavidCC (Mar 9, 2006)

I think many child abductions that take place could not have happened even 20 feet from where they did happen.  That is, if the child could break free, run around the corner or out the door or whatever, where they can be seen and heard (yelling for help) they will have successfully prevented their abduction.  This is not true every time but I think many abductions do happen near crowded places but just in an isolated spot.  So if an 8 yr old girl has learned a wrist release that gives her a couple of seconds to run towards other people, it is well worth teaching.

Also I think it is worthwhile to practice escaping them so that you will become better at applying them.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

There are too many specific counter-arguments to my post presented so I cannot respond specifically on each point. However there is a general theme which I can respond to. 

I appreciate that my viewpoint on wrist locks goes against the grain in mainstream martial arts where so many people spend so much time practicing and place so much confidence on wrist escapes. I am not trying nor hoping to convert people. 

However, I will present my reasons for thinking that typical grab-escapes is all a load of silliness:

When I say that the universal defence (lol) is a punch in the face, by which I really mean lots of strikes/screams/flailing etc, people counter by supposing situations where the person being grabbed is somehow too weak to strike someone &#8211; yet the same argument supposes that that same weakling is able to apply a joint manipulation and that in doing so they will not escalate the situation exactly as striking out does. That is not logical IMO and goes against some studies of abductions. Most abductions by strangers result in death. There simply should not be the worry of escalation. At least one study which I saw reported said that fighting back at the initial abduction attempt was the surest way to survive. 

If someone is being abducted then they are REALLY in DEEP danger, they are almost certainly going to have an adrenaline dump which is likely to significantly reduce their dexterity among other things, and they are almost certainly weaker than their attacker. And people want them to apply sophisticate grab escapes. 

In a similar vein, it doesn&#8217;t concern me if some far eastern master of some twisty-wristy art is highly proficient at grab escapes. Such people are not the typical student nor the typical victim. Should we say that if someone grabbed Mike Tyson&#8217;s wrist and he could _just_ punch them lightly and escape therefore validation the &#8220;universal escape&#8221; concept? Of course not, same logic applies.


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> When I say that the universal defence (lol) is a punch in the face, by which I really mean lots of strikes/screams/flailing etc, people counter by supposing situations where the person being grabbed is somehow too weak to strike someone  yet the same argument supposes that that same weakling is able to apply a joint manipulation and that in doing so they will not escalate the situation exactly as striking out does. That is not logical IMO and goes against some studies of abductions.


The escape from a wrist grab and the application of a wrist joint lock are not the same thing.  The escape from a wrist grab involves the science of biology and of simple levers and fulcrums.  Will it work 100% of the time? No, but it works more often than most people would have you believe.  And a small person striking a larger, stronger person in the face, gut or nuts will only serve to piss that person off more, hence the response must be quick, violent and specific.  Moreover, once the grab is on, it's on and quick releases must be that - quick and early before the grab is totally on. This works most of the time.  My stick-thin girl scouts can escape my full wrist grab and I'm stronger than some men.



			
				kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Most abductions by strangers result in death. There simply should not be the worry of escalation. At least one study which I saw reported said that fighting back at the initial abduction attempt was the surest way to survive.


Fighting back is most assuredly the way to survive and an abductee needs many tools - one is escape from grabs and not just wrist grabs.



			
				kickcatcher said:
			
		

> If someone is being abducted then they are REALLY in DEEP danger, they are almost certainly going to have an adrenaline dump which is likely to significantly reduce their dexterity among other things, and they are almost certainly weaker than their attacker. And people want them to apply sophisticate grab escapes.


Wrist grab escapes are hardly sophisticated, they are, again, the simple science of levers and fulcrums and when practiced often, easier to pull off than an effective punch to ... anywhere, really.



			
				kickcatcher said:
			
		

> In a similar vein, it doesnt concern me if some far eastern master of some twisty-wristy art is highly proficient at grab escapes. Such people are not the typical student nor the typical victim. Should we say that if someone grabbed Mike Tysons wrist and he could _just_ punch them lightly and escape therefore validation the universal escape concept? Of course not, same logic applies.


Does it?  I think you oversimplify some important points: 1. that the typical victim is likely to be an expert at anything and 2. that everyone can punch more effectively than they can escape.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Shesulsa, we clearly come from martial arts/combat viewpoints which are extremely different and I appreciate that neither of us is likely to convince the other any time soon. 

I am familiar with typical grab escapes and agree that they can work within a compliant setting. I do view them as joint manipulations (by and large) but am not confusing them with other locks etc. We are both talking about circling towards the thumb/forefinger gap etc. 

The question is are they effective in a real situation and secondly, are they the optimum response, particularly in cases of attempted abduction where the abductee is far weaker than the abductor. 
?

I have no desire to subject 6 year old girls to the trauma of pressure testing that would be reasonable for adults. However, I believe that the physical act of abducting a child, at least for the average grown male, is easy. Hypothetically, if I were to walk into a room (such as a dojo) and attempt to abduct one of the children, starting by grabbing an arm, it would be easy (assuming no one came to their aid, lol). With or without grab escape training (sorry). That is the harsh truth. 

The question then becomes what methods the child should attempt in order to stop the adult abducting them. I&#8217;m sure we both agree that they should do _something_. 

The question becomes very hypothetical &#8211; we cannot test this within acceptable social boundaries. But my feeling is that the victim screaming, lashing out, struggling etc is far more likely to result in an aborted abduction than attempting those typical grab escapes. Sorry.


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## TigerWoman (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> When I say that the universal defence (lol) is a punch in the face, by which I really mean lots of strikes/screams/flailing etc, people counter by supposing situations where the person being grabbed is somehow too weak to strike someone  yet the same argument supposes that that same weakling is able to apply a joint manipulation and that in doing so they will not escalate the situation exactly as striking out does. That is not logical IMO and goes against some studies of abductions. Most abductions by strangers result in death. There simply should not be the worry of escalation. At least one study which I saw reported said that fighting back at the initial abduction attempt was the surest way to survive.



I agree with what you stated.  The best defense is to incapacitate your attacker from doing any further harm as quickly as possible.  The best defense is to strike him first.  I wouldn't worry about the arm grabbing my wrist.  I train the women as I have been trained, to strike first when you first feel the wrist being grabbed.  We do a sidekick to the knee. We train positioning on the knee with pressure, train focus and striking on the bag.  Then we block for a possible incoming punch from the other arm of the attacker and knee the groin.  We train the knees on the bag.  Then we go through the whole action alot on each other until it is ingrained.  We have wrist release ie a collar grab, for higher level (TKD) but it also involves an arm lock/elbow break and on a larger guy not too practical.

I would think that a wrist release may not lead to where I would want to be in a conflict.  It would give the attacker time to do something else, why do that?  I tried to release the wrist of my master once, granted he has strong wrists, and couldn't.  It does give me pause though, as a first defense.  He is actually a smaller build, and unlike the guy on the street has martial arts training but  how many men have stronger wrists than myself?  I would venture a good many and I'm stronger than the average woman. I would rather kick the knee out/knee groin as I have been trained that way.  Even for a child, a wrist release could result in a further grab.  I have seen children break boards easily and could break a knee or they could be taught to stomp the instep.  I just wouldn't put all of their marbles into a wrist release to be able to run away. TW


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## bydand (Mar 9, 2006)

You have to make up your mind Kickcatcher, your first post said that "wrist grabs seem to only exist in martial art clubs" and that they are "contrived drivel", then in this latest post you say that if you walked into a room and attempted to abduct a kid, "starting by grabbing an arm, it would be easy."  Do you really have some valid point to bring up, or are you just trying to stir the pot in the forum?  

You keep making reference to sophisicated grab excapes.  Nobody is saying that they are training people (or are in training) to use the more complex moves, they don't have to be complex OR sophisicated; very simple *gross motor* moves work well, no need for high dexterity.  Yes, I have used them, yes they work!  Do I advise that it should be the ONLY thing taught to not only kids, but adults?  NO, that would be utter foolishness, but they are a very valid start.  punching somebody in the face that has already crossed over that social  line and grabbed you is just going to get you hurt worse by ticking them off.


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2006)

I certainly don't think that all efforts (or 'marbles') in an attempted abduction by wrist grab should be aimed towards the early and quick escape.  Nor did I say that there aren't other targets and tactics one should employ.  What is left, however, is that the grab must be released somehow and at some point.  They won't always just let go once you stomp on the instep, rake the shin or punch the nose, sorry.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> What do you think about this type of attack? I've heard views from two sides, one saying that its not a worthwhile attack and others saying that it is an attack worth knowing a defense for.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Mike


 
This was the original post. 

In my opinion, yes it is good to know about wrist attacks and defenses against them. However it is not all you should know if your intension is to defend yourself against an attack. 

It can depend on so many variables it is next to impossible to say yes it is good, know it is bad. If it works once and prevents abduction then it is worth knowing. But in the real world depending on only one thing is not good. Refusing to learn one thing because of some sort of distain for the move is your prerogative.

However depending on a punch in the face to save you, particularly if you are talking children against adults is likely doomed to failure.

And for that matter if you are putting all your money on a punch in the face to save you, that is not good either. As previously used as an example, if your fighting Mike Tyson I doubt a punch in the face would work either.

As for &#8220;Twisty-Wristy&#8221; none of the people I listed would ever specialize in just joint locks. Even the Qin Na person, knows more than wristlocks. And my reference was to the fact that I do not think that a punch in the face would be effective on any of these people. And telling them Qin Na is silly would be, at least to them ia silly statement. But I am equally as certain they would not argue because they have no need to prove anything to anyone. 

And I am fairly certain that you would never have to worry about them as attackers, but one of them was once attacked, he, by the way was not injured. 

But I also knew a 3 degree Black belt in Japanese Jujitsu who I think had the right attitude, if you can run, run if you have to fight, fight.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

bydand said:
			
		

> You have to make up your mind Kickcatcher, your first post said that "wrist grabs seem to only exist in martial art clubs" and that they are "contrived drivel", then in this latest post you say that if you walked into a room and attempted to abduct a kid, "starting by grabbing an arm, it would be easy." Do you really have some valid point to bring up, or are you just trying to stir the pot in the forum?
> 
> You keep making reference to sophisicated grab excapes. Nobody is saying that they are training people (or are in training) to use the more complex moves, they don't have to be complex OR sophisicated; very simple *gross motor* moves work well, no need for high dexterity. Yes, I have used them, yes they work! Do I advise that it should be the ONLY thing taught to not only kids, but adults? NO, that would be utter foolishness, but they are a very valid start. punching somebody in the face that has already crossed over that social line and grabbed you is just going to get you hurt worse by ticking them off.


 
I do not think wrist grabs are particularly common in assaults. In response people bring up the child abduction scenario, presumably because they know deep down that as adults we are unlikely to be assaulting in this manner by anyone seriously wishing to harm us. Therefore I built the example around the wrist grab. Even for children, I sincerely doubt that wrist grabs are particularly common, considering the other options available to the abductor, who is likely to use pursausion or sheer brute force, neither of which suggest a wrist grab. Of those abductions that do involve wrist grabs, how many reflect the static setting of typical wrist grab escape drills? I'd bet next to none.


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## TigerWoman (Mar 9, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I certainly don't think that all efforts (or 'marbles') in an attempted abduction by wrist grab should be aimed towards the early and quick escape.  Nor did I say that there aren't other targets and tactics one should employ.  What is left, however, is that the grab must be released somehow and at some point.  They won't always just let go once you stomp on the instep, rake the shin or punch the nose, sorry.



Differ with you on that statement. I think _all efforts should be aimed at a quick escape_. Better to be able to get away as fast as posslble with whatever means possible.  Actually yesterday in our small town, two young children got away from a guy who was trying to lure them.  He asked them to help him get his lock undone.  Then he yelled at them to come back while they ran away.  We are now searching our neighborhoods for a dark colored van.  I'm glad the kids got away fast.  First run and yell. Then if you can't run, yell and strike them where it hurts until you can get away.  That is what we teach them.

Those attacks you mentioned except the stomp, probably would be on the lowest end of effectiveness. But an attacker might let go if a child hurt their knee, or kicked their groin.  A stomp though with a hard heeled shoe on an instep is effective but most kids wear rubber soled shoes these days.  We have had kids do stomps on several boards 2-3 with their bare feet because they use their heel to penetrate. Probably better with hard heeled sandals. TW


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2006)

Okay, semantics here - I was referring to all efforts going towards a quick WRIST escape.


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## TigerWoman (Mar 9, 2006)

Then, if they couldn't get out a wrist hold (using all efforts) what then?  I would rather teach them (kids) to kick the attacker to actually hurt them and get away, than rely on hopefully getting out of wrist hold just so that the attacker could run after them and grab them again.  Women can use knees, elbows, knife hand whatever but kids are more limited. TW


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## MJS (Mar 9, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Thats a good point, but the reality is that if you can't attack the attacker in an effective way, I dont know that a grab release is going to be very effective either. Taking out a knee is all about strategy and angles as is most attacks. I'm am most certainly not a fan of the "one hit kill" mentality as thats pretty much opposite from my systems principles, but it doesn't have to be just one hit or punch. If you can react to the grab you can effectively throw 6, 7 or 8 attacks (strikes, knees, kicks, shoulders, etc) within the time it takes to release a grab. Also, you have acomplished two things, you have released the grab and (hopefully) ended the engagement.
> 
> In a real self defense situation you can't worry about the attacker, you just worry about yourself, and "flipping the switch" to fighting for your life can be quite effective even agaisnt bigger attackers if you train porperly.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, you bring up some very good points.  I guess what it all comes down to, is what situation is being presented to you at that time.  If you're able to get a release from the grab, and a)control the person or b) escape and counter strike, as long as you get out of the grab, that was the goal.  I'm just looking at it as having an extra set of 'tools' in the box.  

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Mar 9, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> And a small person striking a larger, stronger person in the face, gut or nuts will only serve to piss that person off more, hence the response must be quick, violent and specific.


 Actually I disagree with you and agree as well 
I completely disagree that a small person striking a larger, stronger person regardless of area will only serve to piss them off more. If thats the case martial arts are useless against opponents bigger than you. A trained person should understand how to generate enough power while striking specific targets to do damage, otherwise their training is completely useless in this situation. Now, I completely agree with the last part of your statement that the response must be quick, violent, and specific. Sure a half-hearted pound to the boys might just piss someone off, but a cross elbow to the eye, upward knee to the groin, downward elbow to the neck, stomping kick to the side of the knee, and a drop on the head to the asphault all within the smallest amount of time possible could be quite effective (not specifically these techniques but in this manner). You will also most likely get your grab release in thier somewhere, at which point you could escape if the situation allows. See, my point is that you dont just throw a hand to the face and hope that makes them let go and run away. In a situation of an adult abduction, your chances plumit if you allow the attacker to move you to a different location. The key is once you start fighting, you dont stop until the attacker is either unconscious, broken up enough to stop posing a threat, or lying in a fetal position peeing his/her pants. 

A simple grab release isn't in my opinion violent or specific. The actuality of releasing a grab in a manner that makes it completely effective for you to simply run away is probably pretty low. If a person is intent on abducting you, just releaseing their grab isn't really going to make them stop. You talk about pissing someone off, I would rather piss them off as they spank their head off the pavement than piss them off by releasing their grab and standing squared up on them. If a strike from a smaller person isn't effective before the grab release its not effective after either. What do you do then?



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Moreover, once the grab is on, it's on and quick releases must be that - quick and early before the grab is totally on. This works most of the time. My stick-thin girl scouts can escape my full wrist grab and I'm stronger than some men.


 Yes, but what do you do after the release? Thats the key. Also, if your intent on releasing the grab, many times if it fails your left without options or at least struggling to get a failed technique while the attacker knocks you unconscious. Thats why I dont like offering any specific techniques as a "catch all". If you too focused on releasing a grab and it fails, your loose time trying to regroup and come up with another strategy. In fact, I believe that waiting to attack until after a release is wasting precious time. 



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Fighting back is most assuredly the way to survive and an abductee needs many tools - one is escape from grabs and not just wrist grabs.


 I agree with this, but it seems you were down playing those "other tools" in favor of a release. We share a different thought process because of different styles and such, but in my opinion I'm not going to simply escape from a grab, I'm going to punish the grabber in the process. The fact of body weight or size plays a smaller role than most believe in proper technique and timing. Plus, if strikes from the smaller person aren't effective (except to anger the attacker) what weapons do you have? You wont get very far just trying to escape everytime they grab you. What happens if they grab you and pull you into an attack of their own? 



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Wrist grab escapes are hardly sophisticated, they are, again, the simple science of levers and fulcrums and when practiced often, easier to pull off than an effective punch to ... anywhere, really.


 While I agree they aren't really sophisticated, I wouldn't say they are easier to pull off than an effective punch to anywhere. Plus, we must address what is effective. In my opinion a strike to the nose might not knock the larger opponent out, but might allow an effective escape from their otherwise unescapable grab. In my system we work on reaction of the opponent, and an effective strike could be one that simply makes the attacker blink thier eyes and tense up for just a second. Its these small windows of opportunity that I think you miss if you solely focus on escaping a grab only.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> 2. that everyone can punch more effectively than they can escape.


 While I dont neccessarily agree with everything he has said, I dont know that its an oversimplification to say people can attack more effectively than they can escape. "Punch" is too limiting, but an attack can be many things. And the effectiveness of a toe kick to the groin may just be measured by the reaction of the kicked opponent. Also, never stop with one technique.

Ok, not trying to attack you Geo (you might escape my grab and hurt me anyway :uhyeah: ) Just enjoying the discussion. :wink:

Off my soapbox now....
7sm


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## shesulsa (Mar 15, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Actually I disagree with you and agree as well
> I completely disagree that a small person striking a larger, stronger person regardless of area will only serve to piss them off more. If thats the case martial arts are useless against opponents bigger than you. A trained person should understand how to generate enough power while striking specific targets to do damage, otherwise their training is completely useless in this situation. Now, I completely agree with the last part of your statement that the response must be quick, violent, and specific. Sure a half-hearted pound to the boys might just piss someone off, but a cross elbow to the eye, upward knee to the groin, downward elbow to the neck, stomping kick to the side of the knee, and a drop on the head to the asphault all within the smallest amount of time possible could be quite effective (not specifically these techniques but in this manner). You will also most likely get your grab release in thier somewhere, at which point you could escape if the situation allows. See, my point is that you dont just throw a hand to the face and hope that makes them let go and run away. In a situation of an adult abduction, your chances plumit if you allow the attacker to move you to a different location. The key is once you start fighting, you dont stop until the attacker is either unconscious, broken up enough to stop posing a threat, or lying in a fetal position peeing his/her pants.


 My thoughts on this were geared more towards a large discrepancy in size, weight and power.  A repeated, fast striking attack towards specific targets - in the case of a vast weight class discrepancy, vital point targets imho - is needed - however we mustn't lose the forest for the trees.  In the type of scenario where the victim is MUCH smaller and MUCH lighter and MUCH weaker than the antagonist, striking AND releases must be drilled, sorry.  Most girls I grab tend to pull me in and lean backwards, trying to pull their arm out. If they try to hit me, I grab the other arm, turn them around and bear hug them from the back with their arms crossed in front of them.  IF they had used a quick-release technique as soon as my hand touched their arm, things would have turned out a lot differently, no?  And a person who does not spend time punching COULD injure themselves more by punching a larger, more solid target than themselves and might not be able to use that free hand after all.

It's certainly a situation-by-situation basis, but when we're talking wrist grabs in real life attack situations, it's usually something that's done by someone who feels they have - and probably because they do have - FAR more strength and power than the person they are grabbing.  I'm sure that's not true in every single case.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> A simple grab release isn't in my opinion violent or specific.


No, it's not and that was not the intent of my statement.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> The actuality of releasing a grab in a manner that makes it completely effective for you to simply run away is probably pretty low. If a person is intent on abducting you, just releaseing their grab isn't really going to make them stop.


 I'm not so sure I agree with the first sentence, however I understand your intent behind it.  I agree with the second sentence - please take note that I never said all one must do is release the grab; my point is that training wrist grab escapes correctly IS efficacious and important.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> You talk about pissing someone off, I would rather piss them off as they spank their head off the pavement than piss them off by releasing their grab and standing squared up on them. If a strike from a smaller person isn't effective before the grab release its not effective after either.


 The point about pissing someone off is the raising of the stakes; some people when pissed off go into overdrive.  The way I'm reading your statement there is that I mind pissing off an attacker. The opposite is true ... unless I am nowhere near getting away and he escalates his attack ... and now we're getting into another phase of discussion really.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> What do you do then?


Technique.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yes, but what do you do after the release? Thats the key.


Of course it is!  Is that what we're discussing? Because I think that's a specificity that lies within the individual training, the art and the teacher, no?  I thought we were discussing whether or not training escapes from wrist grabs is worthwhile.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> Also, if your intent on releasing the grab, many times if it fails your left without options or at least struggling to get a failed technique while the attacker knocks you unconscious. Thats why I dont like offering any specific techniques as a "catch all". If you too focused on releasing a grab and it fails, your loose time trying to regroup and come up with another strategy. In fact, I believe that waiting to attack until after a release is wasting precious time.


 Again, we go back to what I said earlier about releasing before the grab is on if that's possible.  How about releasing while striking? Because that would describe some of the techniques I've seen and train on.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> I agree with this, but it seems you were down playing those "other tools" in favor of a release. We share a different thought process because of different styles and such, but in my opinion I'm not going to simply escape from a grab, I'm going to punish the grabber in the process. The fact of body weight or size plays a smaller role than most believe in proper technique and timing. Plus, if strikes from the smaller person aren't effective (except to anger the attacker) what weapons do you have? You wont get very far just trying to escape everytime they grab you. What happens if they grab you and pull you into an attack of their own?


 Again, I read the OP as whether or not training from wrist grab escapes is worthwhile.  Perhaps you'd like to start another thread where we discuss "what do you do after your escape the wrist/forearm grab?"  Because THAT would be a technique follow-up discussion.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> While I agree they aren't really sophisticated, I wouldn't say they are easier to pull off than an effective punch to anywhere.


 You probably wouldn't be attacked with this kind of grab, Adam, whereas a small girl with no forearms and who has no idea how to punch correctly without breaking her wrist is more likely to be attacked this way. Do you disagree?



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> Plus, we must address what is effective. In my opinion a strike to the nose might not knock the larger opponent out, but might allow an effective escape from their otherwise unescapable grab. In my system we work on reaction of the opponent, and an effective strike could be one that simply makes the attacker blink thier eyes and tense up for just a second. Its these small windows of opportunity that I think you miss if you solely focus on escaping a grab only.


 Again, training on escaping is _a step_ - a step in a response to this situation. And if you're going to train the most likely candidate to strike their opponent in the nose, please train them to strike with a heel palm - they're less likely to hurt themselves this way and they'll still have a hand to do more damage with.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> While I dont neccessarily agree with everything he has said, I dont know that its an oversimplification to say people can attack more effectively than they can escape. "Punch" is too limiting, but an attack can be many things. And the effectiveness of a toe kick to the groin may just be measured by the reaction of the kicked opponent. Also, never stop with one technique.


 I don't necessarily disagree with you here. What may be the only option would be to fight and fight and fight and fight until something happens - we hope they let go, and it has happened and will likely happen again and HURRAY!!  



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> Ok, not trying to attack you Geo (you might escape my grab and hurt me anyway :uhyeah: ) Just enjoying the discussion. :wink:
> 
> Off my soapbox now....
> 7sm


 is cool


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## Flatlander (Mar 15, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> What do you think about this type of attack? I've heard views from two sides, one saying that its not a worthwhile attack and others saying that it is an attack worth knowing a defense for.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Mike



I think its time to revisit the original question.

First, is it a worthwhile attack?  No.  It CAN, however, be a type hand immobilization which may afford one the opportunity to follow up unchecked.  Unlikely, but possibly.

However, is it an attack worth knowing a defense for?  Absolutely.  My reasoning is two-fold.

(Here's where we get into the 7*/Shesulsa discussion)

There are two possible scenarios - abduction (larger attacker/smaller victim), and aggression/attack for the purpose of assault or robbery.

Irrespective of the circumstances, there is most certainly value in training the wrist grab escape.  Should it be the "go to first response"?  Tough to say absolutely, as it honestly depends on so many factors:
- arrangement and alignment of bodies
- relative skill
- relative strength
- involvement of and ease of access to weapons
- aggressive level of attack - i.e., is he following up with a cross right now?
- preparedness
- etc. (you get my point, I'm sure).

With all that said, I suppose the primary point is that whatever happens, if you do not at some point attempt to release that grab, you're left with one good hand to counter with.  As I'm sure we can all agree, we're doubly as effective with both hands in the mix.  So, get it released by whatever means necessary at the earlies possible opportunity.  Only then can you bring all of your potential tools to bear on the situation, thereby increasing your likelihood of survival.

My 53 cents.  (the colloquialism used to be "2 cents", but my figures are inflation adjusted)


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## shesulsa (Mar 15, 2006)

R.I.P. Carlie Brucia - the girl who was abducted by Joseph Smith (who walked up to her, grabbed her forearm low, near her wrist)  - who never learned how to avoid, respond, nor escape from her captor who lead her away _by the wrist_;  her killer was sentenced to death.



> Updated: 5:49 p.m. ET March 15, 2006
> 
> SARASOTA, Fla. - A former mechanic convicted of raping and murdering 11-year-old Carlie Brucia, whose abduction was caught on a car wash security camera, was sentenced to death Wednesday for her murder.


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## Tony (Mar 16, 2006)

Well we have practiced wrist grabs and within our forms we learn that there are various applications to get out of wrist grabs. Most of you practice punching in a horse stance and twisting your hand as you punch and twist back as you bring it back and that motion can be used to get out of a wrist grab! Also there is a technique against a crafty person trying to use a handshake as means of grabbing your hand!


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## 7starmantis (Mar 16, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> My thoughts on this were geared more towards a large discrepancy in size, weight and power. A repeated, fast striking attack towards specific targets - in the case of a vast weight class discrepancy, vital point targets imho - is needed - however we mustn't lose the forest for the trees. In the type of scenario where the victim is MUCH smaller and MUCH lighter and MUCH weaker than the antagonist, striking AND releases must be drilled, sorry. Most girls I grab tend to pull me in and lean backwards, trying to pull their arm out. If they try to hit me, I grab the other arm, turn them around and bear hug them from the back with their arms crossed in front of them. IF they had used a quick-release technique as soon as my hand touched their arm, things would have turned out a lot differently, no? And a person who does not spend time punching COULD injure themselves more by punching a larger, more solid target than themselves and might not be able to use that free hand after all.


I completely agree, striking AND release must be trained. I've always believed that, however I dont teach to immediately go for the release. I also teach if you go for the release and it fails, you must _immediately_ move to something else. The possibility of grabbing their hand as they try and hit you is because of a lack of training in hitting as well as the old focus on one thing problem. One of the most effective (I've found) strikes against a wrist grab is as they grab your wrist and pull, you get ahead of it, collapse the arm (bending the elbow) and attack with the point of the elbow. That would take care of getting the other hand grabbed. Also, I teach to do many attacks simultaneously. That elbow could be thrown (piercing or even across) while a shin or knee kick is thrown while a nice grabbing of the groin is done with the other hand. All at the same time or strategically timed to offer the best result from their reaction. I guess what I'm saying is I agree, you must train something other than a simply release.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> It's certainly a situation-by-situation basis, but when we're talking wrist grabs in real life attack situations, it's usually something that's done by someone who feels they have - and probably because they do have - FAR more strength and power than the person they are grabbing. I'm sure that's not true in every single case.


Well, my philosophy (and style) doesn't rely on strength or power. Thats why to me it doesn't make a difference how much more strength or power the grabber has. This is where "violent and specific" training comes into play. I dont mean to be harsh, but you think an attacker who grabs a woman by the wrist in front of any public place will succeed in abducting the woman if she immediately began screaming, kicking, elbowing, gouging, biting, grabbing "the boys", kneeing, even falling down on the ground? I just think the wrist grab is given way too much power and mostly because of the ignorance of the person being grabbed. My own view is that focusing so much on releases gives a false sense of security to releasing a grab. For one, as you have pointed out yourself, the grabber is most likely much bigger, stronger, and more aggressive. Thats going to be a hard grab to release....especially if the grabber has been reading threads like this one. Our small women as soon as being grabbed just go apeshit and begin a non-stop barrage of elbows, knees, stomps, eye gouges, etc. Its not impossible for a smaller person to take a larger persons center and throw them, so those are effective as well. In my experience and opinion, its much less about technique than it is attitude and willingness to survive. We had a student who ran down a knife attacker at a park not long ago. The guy grabbed a young girl from the arm or wrist, turned her around behind him. produced a knife and the girl went crazy, screaming, kicking, biting. The guy dropped her and took off. Unfortunately for him, one of our students happened to be running close by and pursued him for quite a while, allowing the cops a chance to catch him.  Had the girl started for a grab release I think she might have had a different fate. In my opinion, the initial response might not be a release. Of course every situation is different.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm not so sure I agree with the first sentence, however I understand your intent behind it. I agree with the second sentence - please take note that I never said all one must do is release the grab; my point is that training wrist grab escapes correctly IS efficacious and important.


I completely agree, I didn't mean to say otherwise. I just wanted to point out that there needs to be much more to it than just a release. Also that a release may not happen, you need to know what to do then.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> The point about pissing someone off is the raising of the stakes; some people when pissed off go into overdrive. The way I'm reading your statement there is that I mind pissing off an attacker. The opposite is true ... unless I am nowhere near getting away and he escalates his attack ... and now we're getting into another phase of discussion really.


I took your statement as saying the girl being grabbed should take care not to piss off her attacker. I may have misunderstood your point. Sorry.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Of course it is! Is that what we're discussing? Because I think that's a specificity that lies within the individual training, the art and the teacher, no? I thought we were discussing whether or not training escapes from wrist grabs is worthwhile.


Its a specificity, but there are universals. There are proven facts about abductions that make certain action necessary. For instance, you do not want to be transported to a different location if you can help it. In that case, you must do what is necessary to stop that action. Thats my intent behind the post. 
Actually I think the original question was are wrist grabs effective as attacks. In my opinion it depends. In the mantis system we grab alot, I mean ALOT! However, I think wrist grabs as attacks are not effective as it ties up one of your weapons. We grab and release quickly, or grab and pluck, grab and choke, grab and chin na....see the pattern? Never just a grab. I think tying up your own weapons is not a good idea and one too many people take for grant it. I do however see the need for learning releases, because I dont think that I'll only encounter what I feel is effective, there are people out there who may attack me in ways I wouldn't attack them. That being said, we should attempt to train as many of those as possible.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Again, we go back to what I said earlier about releasing before the grab is on if that's possible. How about releasing while striking? Because that would describe some of the techniques I've seen and train on.


Definitely, in fact I make a comment (or meant to) a bit further back about releasing while attacking. In my opinion, that is the best way to release, at least in a real self defense situation. Or I take that back, the best way to release is before the grab is completed, but that could be argued its not really a release.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> You probably wouldn't be attacked with this kind of grab, Adam, whereas a small girl with no forearms and who has no idea how to punch correctly without breaking her wrist is more likely to be attacked this way. Do you disagree?


I dont disagree and you make a good point, but if the girl is clueless about punching without breaking her own wrist, will she be able to pull off a release from a full (much more powerful) grab? Probably not. I dont think punching is the only way to attack either. I just think the point you made about the attacker being much more powerful and strong is debilitating to the effectiveness of the releases. If you can release before being grabbed thats one thing, but the fact is a girl who is clueless about punching is not going to be trained enough to react in that way. Especially from a surprise grab. My strategy differs from many, but the grabber will most likely have alot of power or focus on the grab, why attempt to fight against his force there? If he is really holding on tight and forcefully, dont even put your efforts there, we already agreed you couldn't beat him anyway. Go right to the opposite elbow to the neck, knee to the groin, then his focus is away from the grab and a release is much more effective. But thats my mantis bias, we always try to take the persons focus off our real attacks. Attack high to move their energy up and then attack the legs, etc. 



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Again, training on escaping is _a step_ - a step in a response to this situation. And if you're going to train the most likely candidate to strike their opponent in the nose, please train them to strike with a heel palm - they're less likely to hurt themselves this way and they'll still have a hand to do more damage with.


Oh, I rarely teach self defense with punches. Its either palm or elbows normally. This is great as the distance is usually pretty close anyways. I may not have made myself clear though, punching in the nose is in my opinion not the most effective target for a small woman in a self defense situation. It all depends on what target is presented, but in that type of scenario, you want to most devastating target available. 



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> I don't necessarily disagree with you here. What may be the only option would be to fight and fight and fight and fight until something happens - we hope they let go, and it has happened and will likely happen again and HURRAY!!


I think we agree much more than we think. I just wanted to point out that wrist grab releases are effective and should be trained, but that there is a huge gap in realism if you leave it at that.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> R.I.P. Carlie Brucia - the girl who was abducted by Joseph Smith (who walked up to her, grabbed her forearm low, near her wrist) - who never learned how to avoid, respond, nor escape from her captor who lead her away _by the wrist_; her killer was sentenced to death.


Sad news. I dont think we can pick apart things like this and say "well if she would have done thins, it might have been different". But needless to say, some training is needed and anything is better than nothing in most cases.

7sm


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## SFC JeffJ (Mar 17, 2006)

I'm not a small guy by any strech of the imagination, but I have been in two situations where my wrist has been grabbed with bad intent outside the dojo.

One,  the man in question was trying to drag me away from the work I was doing (I was an animal control officer and trying to take away a dog that had bitten a child and was not up to date on it's rabies shots), and the other time it was a prelude to a sucker punch.

From my own personal experience I have to say this attack does happen, and not just to women and children.

Just my thoughts and experience on the matter.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 30, 2006)

Anything can, has, and will happen. Better to be over prepared than under prepared.


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## stickarts (Mar 30, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Anything can, has, and will happen. Better to be over prepared than under prepared.


 
Absolutely! Especially because in this case there are so many easy to learn releases and followups. I have been teaching my 5 1/2 year old daughter wrist releases and it's amazing how well she is doing at them. One time she did just like i taught her but really stomped my foot: I have to tell you it HURT! :0)


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## kamishinkan (Mar 30, 2006)

Along with being useful in situations where you are grabbed (people do still get grabbed!), many of the same movements used in wrist releases (not all) can be applied to strikes as well. In the art I train in, we have a drill where we apply the "basic" blocks to wrist grab situations. It's good training, and it is a good way to learn techniques for beginners without them having deal with a punch.


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