# Mantis Guard



## Hanzou (Jul 25, 2015)

Thoughts?


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 25, 2015)

At time minute 1:50 "this foot goes on the hip, it really puts him off balance" is a serious mistake/opportunity for an ankle submission.
The top guy simply sits down while tucking the offending ankle under his arm. Please review the following.
Dean Lister Teaches A Straight Footlock - YouTube


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 25, 2015)

*Interesting.*  It seems it would be easy to counter after the initial wrap by just dropping the knee to the ground immediately.  Where he has his guy drop the knee on his chest is not good.  Though at that point it is to late for his guy to do it.  Drop it to the mat quickly, reach over and begin to work for a pass.  If you do not drop it to the mat the move seems like it would work fine for submission grappling.  For MMA or self defense probably not a great idea as your head is wide open for hand strikes or a knee when you go for the double shin grab.  I can remember working variations on this around 94 or 95 in open guard.  No fancy mantis name but just open guard.  Still cool video, good surprise move for submission grappling.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 25, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> At time minute 1:50 "this foot goes on the hip, it really puts him off balance" is a serious mistake/opportunity for an ankle submission.
> The top guy simply sits down while tucking the offending ankle under his arm. Please review the following.
> Dean Lister Teaches A Straight Footlock - YouTube



Not a big fan of this footlock though it will work on weaker minded people.  It is just a pain lock and some people will just ignore the pain. (I have run into a couple)  It is also bloody easy to counter if people know what they are doing.  It is a nice safe pain lock for training where major damage won't happen.   So that makes it good for submission grappling in class.  I would instead prefer a heel hook any day of the week for personal protection as I know for sure I will get a good result if applied correctly.  However, heel hooks do blow out knees. (I know several people who have had the surgery) ;(


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 25, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> At time minute 1:50 "this foot goes on the hip, it really puts him off balance" is a serious mistake/opportunity for an ankle submission.
> The top guy simply sits down while tucking the offending ankle under his arm. Please review the following.
> Dean Lister Teaches A Straight Footlock - YouTube



I'm not completely sure that that foot is supposed to stay out there for any length of time to continuously push the hip away. I viewed it as more of a hip check, and then you slide into the mantis grip fairly quickly.

It's also important to note that the guy in my vid subbed the guy in your vid in a pretty dominant fashion, and Lister is well known for his leg locks. So I'm sure that Keenan is well aware of leg lock threats.

Good observation though.


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 25, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Interesting.*  It seems it would be easy to counter after the initial wrap by just dropping the knee to the ground immediately.  Where he has his guy drop the knee on his chest is not good.  Though at that point it is to late for his guy to do it.  Drop it to the mat quickly, reach over and begin to work for a pass.  If you do not drop it to the mat the move seems like it would work fine for submission grappling.  For MMA or self defense probably not a great idea as your head is wide open for hand strikes or a knee when you go for the double shin grab.  I can remember working variations on this around 94 or 95 in open guard.  No fancy mantis name but just open guard.  Still cool video, good surprise move for submission grappling.



Yeah, Keenan is a sport Bjj guy, so self-defense and MMA is usually secondary to looking fancy on the mats. 

It would be interesting to see how this guard would work when striking is entered into the equation. Would the grappler's body be too low for accurate striking, and would the shift in balance in order to strike play into the grappler's hands? Or, would the grappler as you say be eating a whole bunch of blows due to his hands being wrapped up? Interesting indeed.

In any event, I just thought I'd share this. I do enjoy watching the creativity of the masters of the sport. I also watch this stuff so that I can be prepared for any pesky white belt who wants to try his crazy new guard on an upper belt.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jul 26, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> At time minute 1:50 "this foot goes on the hip, it really puts him off balance" is a serious mistake/opportunity for an ankle submission.
> The top guy simply sits down while tucking the offending ankle under his arm. Please review the following.
> Dean Lister Teaches A Straight Footlock - YouTube



Good luck catching Keenan in a footlock from there.

The top player can legitimately try catching a footlock from that position, but unless the bottom player is asleep at the wheel and not aware of the possibilities it's not tremendously likely to succeed.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Not a big fan of this footlock though it will work on weaker minded people.  It is just a pain lock and some people will just ignore the pain. (I have run into a couple)  It is also bloody easy to counter if people know what they are doing.  It is a nice safe pain lock for training where major damage won't happen.   So that makes it good for submission grappling in class.  I would instead prefer a heel hook any day of the week for personal protection as I know for sure I will get a good result if applied correctly.  However, heel hooks do blow out knees. (I know several people who have had the surgery) ;(



Done correctly, the straight ankle lock is not a pain lock. I'm not the leg lock master that Dean Lister is, but if I catch you in a straight ankle lock I will break your foot if you don't tap. (Specifically, I will snap the ligaments on the top and outside of the foot.)

Lots of people do teach and practice it as a pain lock, so I understand why you might not respect the move. I didn't respect it either until I learned how to execute it properly.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 26, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Not a big fan of this footlock though it will work on weaker minded people.  It is just a pain lock and some people will just ignore the pain. (I have run into a couple)  It is also bloody easy to counter if people know what they are doing.  It is a nice safe pain lock for training where major damage won't happen.   So that makes it good for submission grappling in class.  I would instead prefer a heel hook any day of the week for personal protection as I know for sure I will get a good result if applied correctly.  However, heel hooks do blow out knees. (I know several people who have had the surgery) ;(


Who's knees the hook giver or the hook recipient?


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Good luck catching Keenan in a footlock from there.
> 
> The top player can legitimately try catching a footlock from that position, but unless the bottom player is asleep at the wheel and not aware of the possibilities it's not tremendously likely to succeed.
> 
> ...


Odds are very good that I would never find myself in a tussle with Keenan. I was projecting myself into top player as the mantis guard was demo'd. I dont really have a sport mindset, the only time I have ever "fought" for tournament points was when I was a teenager doing Shotokon and TSD. That lasted about a year. 6foot trophies did nothing to make me feel safe.

Then I met my next teacher, who didn't allow us to tournement fight.. We were allowed to compete in Hyungs only. Sparing took on a whole new level of meaning.

Fight simulation, no GI, no gloves just a mouth guard. I lost the sport mindset, and grew slowly into a fight survival mind set.

So as I am watching.. Poke me with your foot really gently and slow... Is this a new trapping tech? No bottom guy your hands are preoccupied, and if you aren't really aware, and this is a grapple for keeps... I will go all in for and ankle break, and head back up and out to striking range.

A survival fight has no points, or natural time limits, and the bottom player might have back up arriving soon. I would rather be "not fighting" then in a fight to begin with. Anything that lets me crush the will to fight, or the ability to fight quickly and effectively is on the table.

I enjoy looking through sanctions to find techniques that are very simple, easy to remember and against the rules because "it injured people".

If I have to mix with  sport JJ/mmaand have no choice in the manner... I would prefer to drop stuff he hasn't likely trained against.

Miyamoto Musashi said you can only fight the way you have trained.

If there is a truth about practicing for the fight. This is it.

I fight to live, and for the lives of those around me. Therefore I train in the same manner.

Some however train with a fight "to win".

This is my mindset:
I am not a champion. Nor do I want to be. I am a surviver.


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 26, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Odds are very good that I would never find myself in a tussle with Keenan. I was projecting myself into top player as the mantis guard was demo'd. I dont really have a sport mindset, the only time I have ever "fought" for tournament points was when I was a teenager doing Shotokon and TSD. That lasted about a year. 6foot trophies did nothing to make me feel safe.
> 
> Then I met my next teacher, who didn't allow us to tournement fight.. We were allowed to compete in Hyungs only. Sparing took on a whole new level of meaning.
> 
> ...



Okay, that was.... odd. I think just about everyone here has acknowledged that this is a sport guard.

Anyway,  Keenan has stated that he's developed an entire system around this guard, so it's going to be interesting to see what else he has up his sleeve.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 26, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, that was.... odd. I think just about everyone here has acknowledged that this is a sport guard.
> 
> Anyway,  Keenan has stated that he's developed an entire system around this guard, so it's going to be interesting to see what else he has up his sleeve.



No, I understand... And I am just saying if I had found myself in a fight with a sport-jj guy, my thinking wouldn't be sport oriented. Therefore what is acceptable as response is different, then some who have that mind set.

I see a polarization happening in a lot of MAs between "Sport" on one end and "Combat" on the other.

And there quite are a few sport JJ guys who have no problems transitioning into "live combat", and understand how to use sport JJ in the real world.

But their library of techniques tends to have really good tools absent. Usually because their teacher had a class syllabus of techniques geared for points in tournament.

In my opinion (everyone has one right?), Mindset is key, and having the most efficient tools on the table. 

And, my opinion, maybe odd, because I am commenting "combat" and not "sport", but how many readers that have not exposed themselves deeply enough to ground fighting, are cognizant of such distinctions?

A variety of views is healthy to any conversation, as long as there is coherent thoughts being expressed.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Done correctly, the straight ankle lock is not a pain lock. I'm not the leg lock master that Dean Lister is, but if I catch you in a straight ankle lock I will break your foot if you don't tap. (Specifically, I will snap the ligaments on the top and outside of the foot.)
> 
> Lots of people do teach and practice it as a pain lock, so I understand why you might not respect the move. I didn't respect it either until I learned how to execute it properly.



*Would love to see your take on it Tony*.  Not sold that permanent damage would happen but open and willing to see myself proved wrong.  Nor do I think it is a move that is even remotely good for personal protection.  Still if you can *easily* break some thing with it I would reconsider it.  However, I gotta see some evidence first.  I can remember being taught this move early on as a white belt and tapping people etc.  My instructor trained very early on with the Gracies. (way before most) and had his knees damaged by heel hooks.  We trained the defenses often and regularly for all leg locks.  So much so that after awhile very few of us ever got caught with them.  



TSDTexan said:


> Who's knees the hook giver or the hook recipient?



Person having the heel hook applied on them of course.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jul 26, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> So as I am watching.. Poke me with your foot really gently and slow... Is this a new trapping tech? No bottom guy your hands are preoccupied, and if you aren't really aware, and this is a grapple for keeps... I will go all in for and ankle break, and head back up and out to striking range.


The problem is that the ankle break is going to be very difficult to achieve from that position because you can't isolate the leg you are attacking. In general, most high percentage foot/leg locks involve isolating your opponent's leg by wrapping it with your own leg. (see 4:05 in the Dean Lister video you linked). In the Mantis Guard, the top person can't wrap the bottom person's leg because his own front leg is already tangled up by his opponent.  

I'm known in my gym as somewhat of a footlock specialist, and I usually wouldn't even bother trying to attack the footlock from that top position.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The problem is that the ankle break is going to be very difficult to achieve from that position because you can't isolate the leg you are attacking. In general, most high percentage foot/leg locks involve isolating your opponent's leg by wrapping it with your own leg. (see 4:05 in the Dean Lister video you linked). In the Mantis Guard, the top person can't wrap the bottom person's leg because his own front leg is already tangled up by his opponent.
> 
> I'm known in my gym as somewhat of a footlock specialist, and I usually wouldn't even bother trying to attack the footlock from that top position.



Footlock Specialist...
Remind me not to throw kicks at you if we ever spar.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jul 26, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Would love to see your take on it Tony*.  Not sold that permanent damage would happen but open and willing to see myself proved wrong.  Nor do I think it is a move that is even remotely good for personal protection.  Still if you can *easily* break some thing with it I would reconsider it.  However, I gotta see some evidence first.  I can remember being taught this move early on as a white belt and tapping people etc.  My instructor trained very early on with the Gracies. (way before most) and had his knees damaged by heel hooks.  We trained the defenses often and regularly for all leg locks.  So much so that after awhile very few of us ever got caught with them.



Let me know next time you're back visiting the Midwest and maybe we can manage to arrange a chance to visit and exchange some techniques.

However, just so you understand the basic mechanism, imagine pointing your toes like a ballet dancer so that there is a straight line along your shin and the top of your foot all the way to your toes. Now hold your ankle in place and push down on your toes as if you were trying to bend your ankle backwards. That's the action your looking for. When you have it done to you, it's actually not as painful as the traditional grinding on the Achilles tendon - you just feel the pressure on your tendons and ligaments telling you they are about to snap.

The one and only time I've tapped out my instructor (3rd degree BJJ black belt, pro MMA fighter) in 8 years of rolling was with a straight ankle lock. He was trying really hard not to let me finish it, but once it's sunk in, it's there.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Let me know next time you're back visiting the Midwest and maybe we can manage to arrange a chance to visit and exchange some techniques.
> 
> However, just so you understand the basic mechanism, imagine pointing your toes like a ballet dancer so that there is a straight line along your shin and the top of your foot all the way to your toes. Now hold your ankle in place and push down on your toes as if you were trying to bend your ankle backwards. That's the action your looking for. When you have it done to you, it's actually not as painful as the traditional grinding on the Achilles tendon - you just feel the pressure on your tendons and ligaments telling you they are about to snap.
> 
> The one and only time I've tapped out my instructor (3rd degree BJJ black belt, pro MMA fighter) in 8 years of rolling was with a straight ankle lock. He was trying really hard not to let me finish it, but once it's sunk in, it's there.



 Where in the Midwest? Sometimes I go to KC Kansas.
Although, since I got married and had a kid, my travel range has been restricted to about 300 mi.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jul 26, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Where in the Midwest? Sometimes I go to KC Kansas.
> Although, since I got married and had a kid, my travel range has been restricted to about 300 mi.


Lexington, Kentucky. I also visit and work out with friends in Ohio on a regular basis.


----------



## TSDTexan (Aug 5, 2015)

regarding the "new" mantis guard the OP asked about... I found this today.. was worth a read.
Turns out there is no such thing.... or is there?
please click the red text below to read it.
There is no such thing as spider guard Dirty White Belt A BJJ Blog


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 14, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> regarding the "new" mantis guard the OP asked about... I found this today.. was worth a read.
> Turns out there is no such thing.... or is there?
> please click the red text below to read it.
> There is no such thing as spider guard Dirty White Belt A BJJ Blog



Sounds like someone making a big stink about nothing.

I remember people claiming that Rubber guard wasn't anything new when Eddie Bravo brought it to the forefront. While I'm sure Eddie wasn't the first guy to use the technique, but he was the first to build a system around it.

That's what Keenan's doing with Mantis guard.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2020)

So it turns out that three years after this thread, Stephen Kesting did a series on this guard which is pretty interesting. Here’s the first vid, you can find the rest on YY;






Actually a little different than how Keenan showed it in the original video, but the general principles are the same.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 20, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> So it turns out that three years after this thread, Stephen Kesting did a series on this guard which is pretty interesting. Here’s the first vid, you can find the rest on YY;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rob Biernacki (the guy demonstrating the technique to Stephen) is a really good instructor.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Rob Biernacki (the guy demonstrating the technique to Stephen) is a really good instructor.



I could tell. He's very descriptive and thorough.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2020)

This vid goes a bit more in depth about the Mantis Guard if anyone's interested;






I gotta say, given the applications of some of those set ups, this guard is more flexible and adaptive than I originally thought it would be. Maybe some self defense applications are possible after all.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 21, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Good luck catching Keenan in a footlock from there.
> 
> The top player can legitimately try catching a footlock from that position, but unless the bottom player is asleep at the wheel and not aware of the possibilities it's not tremendously likely to succeed.
> 
> ...



The pain only is the calf cutter rather than toes in the arm pit?


----------



## drop bear (Oct 21, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> This vid goes a bit more in depth about the Mantis Guard if anyone's interested;
> 
> 
> 
> ...




For self defence.

I like the idea because I don't  have decent scramble. And so use it to threaten and make space so I can stand up. 

But it is not really the approved method in MMA as they prefer simpler and more bullet proof stand ups.


----------

