# Cerio/Lin Wan Kune



## monkey-a-go-go (Aug 24, 2004)

I am curious how this might fit in to the Cerio curriculum. I can dig the marriage of shotokan and kenpo but I wanted to know how this form fit in. I am going by the Leo t. Fong version shown in his very cool old ohara pub. book. Lin wan kune is a generic name of many kung fu forms <Continuous and returning fist>. His he states is from Sil lum from Y.T. Wong with whom he studied for four years. James Lee convinced him to switch schools. I did some Googling a while back and it seems that Wong Tim Yuen came from more specifically Fut Ga. But the form isn't in all Fut Ga curriculums. The Gee Yung association describes Fut Ga as "Combinations of blocks and counter-strikes are not done in individual steps, but in one spontaneous movement. The block and strike are executed simultaneously, as are following combinations of blow and kicks. Fu Ga also teaches to strike in threes - to not be satisfied with one hit, but to follow up with at least two more strikes. Combinations of blocks and strikes require many weight shifts; the emphasis on speed in execution demands that the student subtly and effortlessly move from one stance to another. "
Fong's form follows  this using <in the book> the horse stance exclusively with tiger claws, hammer fists, uppercuts. I think Fong wanted readers to explore the applications because there is a gap between the form's descriptions and the breakdown he shows. In an old Black Belt interview Fong:"Sil-lum is a 'soft' style and it translates as 'young forest,' meaning that the practitioner should be supple and flexible-able to bend with the wind like a young tree. All moves in this style are done from a stationary stance, but is supposed to be superior to cho-li-fat because of the variety and deception of its movements. The hands are constantly in motion, used as feints to cover a sudden kick or other surprise movement. While these hand movements are useful for deception, there is a tendency for them to become an end in themselves, as one series of movements is not fully completed (followed through for contact) before beginning the next series. Unlike cho-li-fat this style incorporates some kicking techniques, but it does not teach the practitioner a sense of timing or how to 'bridge the gap' and move in for the disabling blow. " I figure Cerio learned it from Fong? Sorry if no on cares about this type of stuff let me know and I will disappear  ! Y. T. Wong wrote a book in the 60's i wouldn't mind getting my hands either. The old Ohara books were/are  super cool.


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## The Kai (Aug 24, 2004)

I don't think that Cerio learned the form from Fong at all, I can check and get back to you

It is a cool form though!
Todd


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## The Kai (Aug 24, 2004)

Where does Lin Won Kuen fit into Cerio's Kenpo?

Well it is a Black Belt level form.  With the returning fist strikes and immobile Horse stances I was told it was to train the person in 'waist' strenght or power
Todd


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## monkey-a-go-go (Aug 24, 2004)

I was guessing they interected due to the time period. Cerio seemed to train with lots of well known artists of the day. Definately good for waist like you said.


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## Karazenpo (Aug 25, 2004)

Professor Cerio was taught the form by Sifu Gan Fong Chin and another Kung Fu sifu who's name currently eludes me. It may very well have been Leo Fong but I'm really not sure. I had discussed this with Professor Cerio when he taught me this form so this goes back over a dozen years but his version is an 'eclectic' blending of the two masters who taught him. It also wasn't a ranking form in NCK but he told me he would usually give it to a student who was a little tight or into heavy weight training to keep him looser. I was into weights and 'bulking up' at the time when he gave it to me. The form was also given for tournament competitions. I seem to remember him saying that one sifu had started him on the form and the other, I believe it was Chin finished him up on it. I'm also going to guess that he probably modified it somewhat to fit his own perspective of the arts which he did with other forms that he taught.  Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## monkey-a-go-go (Aug 25, 2004)

Thanks guys. Cerio seems to put together an interesting blend. Paying tribute to those he learned from, traditional yet modernized, and big enough for a student to find themselves in without being too overwhelming. I'm a "basics then do some more basics, smash-bash-romp-stomp-and dump, 1-2 kata kind of guy" but really appreciate learning about other styles. Anytime anyone feels like mentioning Cerio's methods I'm all ears. Thanks again.


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## Karazenpo (Aug 25, 2004)

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Thanks guys. Cerio seems to put together an interesting blend. Paying tribute to those he learned from, traditional yet modernized, and big enough for a student to find themselves in without being too overwhelming. I'm a "basics then do some more basics, smash-bash-romp-stomp-and dump, 1-2 kata kind of guy" but really appreciate learning about other styles. Anytime anyone feels like mentioning Cerio's methods I'm all ears. Thanks again.



You're welcome and being a:  I'm a "basics then do some more basics, smash-bash-romp-stomp-and dump, 1-2 kata kind of guy" then it is my opinion you're right on track! I've said it once if I've said it 100 times, many and I mean many make fighting way too complicated. They get either too wrapped up in 'dojo self defense' where anyone can beat up an uke and or it's ego and commercialization. In other words, keep the black belts coming so they're paying for lessons thinking there are these 'secret' and 'super' advanced techniques to be learned for the next degree or just to be one of the world's most deadliest fighters and/or some just want others to think that they know more than the next guy and that's why they hold the  highly 'coveted' 10th dan. Anyone who has had enough experience in real life situations will attest to the simplicity of fighting and the redundancy of attacks and counter attacks that occur in the real world. Let me close out saying this. Look at the simplicity of good old American boxing and look how well boxers do on the street! Take a good boxer and give him experience with weapon defenses and some grappling and you've got one helluva fighter! To me, that's what Kenpo/Kempo should be all about and if you want to throw in a few low line kicks, open hand strikes and gouges-be my guest but by all means keep it simple because IT IS!


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## monkey-a-go-go (Aug 25, 2004)

Right on. Whether its WII h2h guys like Col. Applegate and Capt. Fairbairn, Okinawa's Choki Motobu, or Judo's Kimura- What they _knew _and what they _practiced _were two different things. They knew hundreds of methods but focus relentlessly on a few direct ones. I wonder is it what boxers do or how they do it? Physical condtioning as a base, five basic punches, bagwork, sparring. A boxer out of the five will have a specialty like the jab or hook that he or she "owns" and relies on when the going gets tough. A kempo/karateka could (surprise) have physical conditioning as a base, straight thrust or tiger claw/palm heel, knife hand/hammer fist, low side kick, snap kick, knees and elbows later on, some makiwara work to be old school, and partner work in line with age and health matters. Then run into the ground. Anything else would be supplementary and be to support the core. A hard sell commercially and a lot of instructors will say they teach this way but do they really? I am not so sure. Training for most of us needs to be fun and keep us healthy but I think it can be done responsibly without pie in the sky claims and info overload. I have no beef with 400-500 technique or 50 kata systems, if the right perspective and context is there. There are very valid reasons how and why that way came about and I understand and support it. But personal practice...

If you have the time Prof. Shuras, I would be interested in learing how you lay out your training personally like which Cerio forms, favored methods. I have got caught up on a lot of old posts since I found MT and respect your views. 

Good training fellows!


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## monkey-a-go-go (Aug 25, 2004)

Sorry for the big text, I goofed up somehow.


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## GAB (Aug 26, 2004)

Monkey san,

The big text is the very thing that I look for in a book anymore, I think the setting on Martial talk is pretty readable.

With the reference to Forms being created to show respect for a teacher in the past, I feel that is an essental element in showing a true ingredient within some systems when you start to establish your own flavor.

Not something that can be done in a franchise type Dojo. 

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Aug 26, 2004)

Hi Professor,
I like that Boxer with a stick, my thoughts exactly. 
In fact I had just made reference to that in a post on FMA, if I would have been here reading this, I might have even used your line. I will definetly keep it in mind.
Just like terminology, techs are formed and katas are developed (taking from ones own experience and copying from others). Happened all the time, still does. 
Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Aug 26, 2004)

Hi, I was thinking (occasionally), let me give you a thought and see how this plays. 

Rikki is a mongoose, he likes to kill snakes, he only has a few moves, keep out of harms way, and when the snake does strike, get it quick and don't do anything fancy that will put you closer to the fangs or the hurting end of the aggressors weapon.
Pretty simple. I have used this thought since I was a child fighting bullies and getting hit myself, school of hard knocks come's to mind. 

I remember one time coming from school to my house (about 12 years old)  I had been in a few in the resent weeks (anger problems) I saw this kid I had not seen to much in the neighborhood before. 
He came over to me and said why don't you come over to my house and we will do some boxing? I said ok, (my idea was a fight) we went to his place and his Dad had a lot of bags and gloves and boxing stuff (hint).

Anyway it was a good lesson, I learned a lot that day, if you are going into someones backyard to box, figure he has some experience...

Same way when someone wants to fight, they figure they can beat you or why else would they try? Don't give them a long time for their tricks, take um out as fast as you can, with your stuff. If you don't have it get it.

That goes back to the best offense, is a good defense. 

I don't believe in the thought to throw the first punch, but that doesn't mean you are not always on the ready. Don't look for trouble but don't not look either. 
The punch coming in can be avoided with quickness and knowledge before hand, if you don't want war, prepare for it. 

In todays world if you have children and you want them to be aware, you need to teach them early to be a fighter and still be fair, do not raise victims,  try not to be one yourself. 
Be aware and be on guard. Vigilance is easy if you start right now, be aware. 
Sorry, I am rambling. Take care. 

Regards, Gary


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## kelly keltner (Aug 26, 2004)

I know this guy named Wyle E. Coyote. He's always running after this guy named Road Runner. Wyle always seems to be fallin off of cliffs or getttin hit in the head by a fallin anvil. Just kidding Gary. That was a good post.

kell


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## Big Pat (Aug 26, 2004)

Nice ramble Gary. Lots of good thoughts in it. 

EKP RIP
Big Pat
 :ultracool


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## Karazenpo (Aug 26, 2004)

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Right on. Whether its WII h2h guys like Col. Applegate and Capt. Fairbairn, Okinawa's Choki Motobu, or Judo's Kimura- What they _knew _and what they _practiced _were two different things. They knew hundreds of methods but focus relentlessly on a few direct ones. I wonder is it what boxers do or how they do it? Physical condtioning as a base, five basic punches, bagwork, sparring. A boxer out of the five will have a specialty like the jab or hook that he or she "owns" and relies on when the going gets tough. A kempo/karateka could (surprise) have physical conditioning as a base, straight thrust or tiger claw/palm heel, knife hand/hammer fist, low side kick, snap kick, knees and elbows later on, some makiwara work to be old school, and partner work in line with age and health matters. Then run into the ground. Anything else would be supplementary and be to support the core. A hard sell commercially and a lot of instructors will say they teach this way but do they really? I am not so sure. Training for most of us needs to be fun and keep us healthy but I think it can be done responsibly without pie in the sky claims and info overload. I have no beef with 400-500 technique or 50 kata systems, if the right perspective and context is there. There are very valid reasons how and why that way came about and I understand and support it. But personal practice...
> 
> If you have the time Prof. Shuras, I would be interested in learing how you lay out your training personally like which Cerio forms, favored methods. I have got caught up on a lot of old posts since I found MT and respect your views.
> 
> Good training fellows!



Circle of the Tiger and Circle of the Leopard are two really good Cerio forms and they are based on Sijo Gascon's #1 & #2 Katas, pretty much the same used in Villari's Shaolin Kempo since he learned them from Cerio. The Cerio versions are a little more softer and much more circulartory than the original katas probably due to Chow's influence on Cerio and Cerio's Kung Fu background. It seems a lot of these older Kenpo/Kempo masters leaned toward the Chinese arts after they acquired their foundation in a much more harder type kenpo system. These forms are also longer with more advanced movements and therefore not taught as beginner forms as is their predecessors. Cat From #3 is also a good diverse Cerio form which is also popular in tournament competition. It wasn't based on any other of the Karazenpo forms but took elements from Okinawan/Japanese Karate, Chinese Kung Fu and Karazenpo. As far as type of training, well here goes. Some have criticized his severe training methods but Gm. S. George Pesare prepares his people for total reality. After training there you won't run into much worse on the street unless you get killed, lol. I know that is very difficult to do with today's liability or if you're trying to make a buck or pay bills but let's be honest, it best prepares one for real life encounters. If you're with one of his people when the 'sh-t hits the fan' you don't have to worry about how he/she will respond, you just know! That cannot be said for many of today's martial artists and I'm sure many of you reading this post are nodding their head in agreement. That's why I mentioned 'boxing' in a previous post. A good boxer is trained to respond to a punch in the nose with a punch back. He/she are conditioned to take a beating as well as dish one out. You can count on their reactions in a real fight. Know what I mean?


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## The Kai (Aug 26, 2004)

I try to differenciate between tools and techniques.  to me a standard reverse punch is a tool to devolp the ability to punch, the end goal is always to punch from anywhere-preferably a high guard with power.  While it is true that boxers have only 4 punchs, I think people confuse hand weapon with angle of delivery.  Elbows and hook punchs are interchangable at a close range.  I got involved with Kenpo because I was a fan of boxing when I was a kid!

The student starts to get the mentality with a simple drill GM Jordan gave us.  From a Fighting Stance exchange lead roundhouse kicks to the body, absorb no blocking than counter punch.  Sounds simple?  After a couple of rounds you become tempted to block or turn away from the 1st kick, but goal is to maintain a forwrd presence.  
I hate to say somethiing does or does not work- instead we proceed from simple deliveries to more specialized methods to devolp confidence.
And we try to instill a certain physicalness in our people,  I spent a couple of years hand=ging with Muay Thai people and never underestimate the advantage of being in shape.
In closing I have not heard much of Karazempo and I enjoy your posts.  Thank you for being open with your info
Todd


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## monkey-a-go-go (Aug 26, 2004)

This developed into some interesting stuff. Thanks for the info and ideas.


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## Karazenpo (Aug 26, 2004)

And I thank you guys for being open minded on my posts. Being a cop for so many years and getting involved in situations, not only myself but the guys I work with, you get to see a certain simplicity that just keeps repeating itself over and over again. Then, you see these 'caught on tape' fights and assaults and they seem to back up what I have already seen or had privy too. That's why I see things the way I do. Thanks of your insight and understanding. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## monkey-a-go-go (Aug 26, 2004)

Reading this, I realized we're a very polite bunch of dudes.


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## GAB (Aug 27, 2004)

Hi, It is funny I can post in some area and get a good response, then get into some other thread and bang, moderator time. 

Thanks Big Pat, I needed that, Kell you are a funny guy. I need to get back to the work at hand.

Regards, Gary


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## BallistikMike (Oct 14, 2004)

12 years owning a bar.

11 years Kenpo/Kempo and various other things 

KISS - Keep It Simpl Self-Defense

These boards are awesome. Everyone here does a great job.


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## xangelusx (Nov 11, 2004)

Monkey,

Is the book that you're referring to Sil Lum Kung Fu: The Chinese Art of Self Defense? Or is it the more rare Choy Lay Fut Kung-Fu: Chinese Art of Self-Defense?  I found the former for less than $10 on Amazon, but the latter is selling for near $70.  I've been trying to track down this form for some time now and would love to see some pictures of it to refresh my memory.


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## monkey-a-go-go (Nov 11, 2004)

xangelusx,
Yes it is my man! Sil lum kung fu: chinese art of self defense that is. I got mine the same way. Again those old Ohara books are a lot of fun. If you get it, let me know and we can kick around some thoughts on it if you want to. I once saw his choy lay fut for arond $14 on there and regret not picking it up. I have never seen it that cheap again. Place that order.....


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## Matt (Nov 11, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I don't think that Cerio learned the form from Fong at all, I can check and get back to you
> 
> It is a cool form though!
> Todd



Cerio learned that form from Gan Fong Chin. The Cerio version is (as I've been told by Joe Rebelo) very similar to the Leo Fong version, differing by the addition of a tornado kick. 

_ Edit:  Ooops - sorry Joe (Shuras) -  I didn't notice that you already answered that one. _

Matt


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## monkey-a-go-go (Nov 12, 2004)

Thanks Matt. If you get a chance could you describe a tornado kick? I have seen different types of kicks named tornado and am a bit confused with the term.


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## xangelusx (Nov 13, 2004)

Monkey,

A tornado kick (at least as I've been taught) is jump spinning inside cresent kick that is done in repetition, hence the "tornado".  It has a very dissying effect, to say the least


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## Karazenpo (Nov 13, 2004)

Matt said:
			
		

> Cerio learned that form from Gan Fong Chin. The Cerio version is (as I've been told by Joe Rebelo) very similar to the Leo Fong version, differing by the addition of a tornado kick.
> 
> _ Edit:  Ooops - sorry Joe (Shuras) -  I didn't notice that you already answered that one. _
> 
> Matt



Hey Matt, no problem, you're right on the money as usual. Professor Cerio told me, from what I recall, that he started the form with Leo Fong and did indeed finish it with Gang Fong Chin, so it would most likely be Chin's version that it closely resembles. Take care my bother, "Joe"


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## monkey-a-go-go (Nov 14, 2004)

xangelusx,
Thanks I got it know. Good Luck with those!

Prof. Shuras,
thanks for sharing your time and experience with us.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 15, 2004)

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> xangelusx,
> Thanks I got it know. Good Luck with those!
> 
> Prof. Shuras,
> thanks for sharing your time and experience with us.



Glad to be of help.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 15, 2004)

Karazenpo, the next time we get togeather it would be interesting to compare your version of this form and the one I do


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## Karazenpo (Nov 15, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Karazenpo, the next time we get togeather it would be interesting to compare your version of this form and the one I do



Sheldon, sounds good to me! Who did you learn your version from?  "Joe"


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