# Taoist Tai Chi Society New April Class for Beginners (Buffalo NY)



## DaPoets

Wednesday, 2 Apr, 2008 6:00 PM
*NEW BEGINNER TAOIST TAI CHI CLASSES FOR APRIL*Starts Wednesday, April 2nd at 6:00 P.M.
This class will meet every Monday and Wednesday from 6:00-7:00 P.M. for three months at the Buffalo location.


The Process of Learning Taoist Tai Chi Goes Through Several Steps

Beginner: Learning the 108 moves of the Taoist Tai Chi Set.

Continuing: These classes help the student who has completed the beginner lessons to consolidate his/her knowledge of the sequence of the Taoist Tai Chi set, learning to make it a more effective exercise for health improvement. The process of building a foundation that exercises the entire physiology will be introduced through other health improving exercises and through practicing frequently repeated moves in the set. Push hands is also introduced.

Health Recovery class: This class is intended for people who wish to learn Taoist Tai Chi but are unable join in a regular class because of particular health or other difficulties and for people who could benefit from the specialized exercises practiced in this class.

More Information about the Taoist Tai Chi Society can be found at www.taoist.org 
Event Location:
968 Kenmore Avenue
Buffalo, NY Contact:716-876-7218
http://buffalo.newyork.usa.taoist.org/

------------------------------------------------
Additional Information:


*About the International Taoist Tai Chi Society*

A volunteer, non-profit organization






Members from around the world meet and learn from each other
The International Taoist Tai Chi Society is a global volunteer organization with member associations in more than 25 countries around the world. The Society brings together people of different languages and cultures in a worldwide community focused on furthering the aims and objectives laid down by the Societys founder, Master Moy Lin-shin. 

The Society is the international umbrella organization for the governance of all member associations around the world. All member associations are incorporated as non-profit organizations and many are also incorporated as charitable organizations.

The Society and its member associations are administered almost completely by volunteers, allowing income over expenses to be used in furthering the Society's Aims and Objectives. The volunteer aspect of the organization provides many opportunities for members to contribute their time and talents for the benefit of others, and often to learn new and valuable skills in the process. The volunteer spirit of the Society extends to instruction in _Taoist Tai Chi_ internal arts and methods, which is provided by accredited volunteer instructors. 

Improve, recover and maintain health

We offer classes in _Taoist Tai Chi_ internal arts and methods at our own centres, at local community centres and other public facilities in approximately 500 locations worldwide. Many branches of our member associations offer special classes for Senior Citizens, and some have a Golden Age Division dedicated especially to improving the health of Seniors.

In collaboration with our sister organisation, the Fung Loy Kok Institute of Taoism, we offer a range of programs in _Taoist Tai Chi_ internal arts and methods at our International Centre in Ontario, Canada. These include our Health Recovery Program, which provides an opportunity for those with significant health problems to improve their health, through a program of focused and intensive practice of _Taoist Tai Chi_ internal arts of health in a supportive, calm and healthy environment. 

Service in the Community

Our members also contribute many hours of service in their communities. We have supported relief efforts for major disasters, and we assist other charities whenever possible.

The Society has conducted fundraising campaigns for Senior Citizens' homes, the Arthritis Society, The Muscular Dystrophy Association, the United Way, the March of Dimes, and other charities. In addition, volunteer instructors teach classes in nursing homes, and for special needs groups such as the Multiple Sclerosis Society, the Parkinson's Foundation, and the Cerebral Palsy Association. 

Trained Volunteer Instructors

In keeping with the aims of the Society, all instructors are volunteers. An accredited instructor must meet the standards set by Master Moy and continually upgrade his or her knowledge through attendance at regular classes and workshops. For the student, being taught by a volunteer means receiving attention that is motivated by enthusiasm and belief in the benefits of the art.

To ensure the same quality of instruction and consistency of purpose at all locations, meetings and workshops are frequently conducted at all levels of the organization. Members enjoy the fact that they can visit or transfer to any branch location and find the same style and quality of instruction, as well as the same friendly atmosphere and charitable orientation.


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## DaPoets

I have been practicing Taoist Tai Chi for 12 years now and I feel that it has been a wonderful and positive experience on my well being, my body, and my way of life.  I'm happy to answer any questions that people may have.


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## ggg214

what's the diference between Taoist Tai Chi with Wu, Yang style.
except pracitsing Taichi, will you do other kinds of pracitising, as sit crosslegged?


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## DaPoets

Sword, Saber, Hsing-I, Lok Hup Ba Fa and breathing/meditations are also taught to those that want to learn.
Taoist Tai Chi is a combination of Yang style and Taoist healing techniques.  Taoist Tai Chi has very little combat application as the moves are ment to stretch and open up the body, which would leave one open to easy attack.


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> Hsing-I,.....Taoist Tai Chi has very little combat application as the moves are ment to stretch and open up the body, which would leave one open to easy attack.


 
I was staying out of this but now I am very confused. 

Xingyiquan is based on attack is defense and it is a VERY aggressive martial art. How do you remove the martial side of it and still train Xingyiquan? If you remove attack you no longer have Xingyiquan


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## East Winds

I could also ask a similar questions in relation to Jian and Dao? Ans as for Liu He Ba Fa (A synthesis of Taiji, Bagua amd Xing-I) how can you train that without martial intent?

Very best wishes


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I guess you could stand in San ti shi for a good while.
 I also suppose on the five element form they do follow the meridans but that can be said on each art. I personally would see Bagua to be more of "Taoist orgins" than Hsing yi as legend has it Dong Haichuan studied with the Lung men sect ( I don't know if that is true) but there is a suppose connection of Moy lin Shin with the Yuen Yuen Inst. which traces itself to Sanyuan gong which goes back the the Lung men.
I do have a question does the sword work come from Yang Tai chi chuan?


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## Xue Sheng

I have another question and I do not know where to post it but since it is a question about Moy Lin-shin I will put it here.

Where exactly did he learn the Yang style taijiquan that he later modified?

Taoists do not teach Yang style taiji they teach a Taoist taiji and it is considerably different.


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## DaPoets

As a sickly youth Moy was sent to a monastery. There he was trained in the teachings of the Earlier Heaven Wu-chi sect of the Hua Shan School of Taoism and regained his health. Moy reported that he studied the religious and philosophical side of Taoism and that he had acquired knowledge and skills in Chinese martial arts.
Ahead of the Communist Revolution of 1949 Moy moved to Hong Kong. There he joined the Yuen Yuen Institute, in Tsuen Wan district in the New Territories, continued his education and became a Taoist monk.
The Yuen Yuen Institute was established in 1950 by monks from Sanyuan Gong (Three Originals Palace) in Guangzhou, Guangdong province, which in turn traces its lineage to the Longmen (Dragon Gate) sect of Quanzhen (Complete Perfection) Taoism. The Yuen Yuen Institute is dedicated to Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism. In 1968, Moy co-founded, together with Taoist Masters Mui Ming-to and Mrs Tang Yuen Mei, the temple for the Fung Loy Kok Institute of Taoism (FLK; Penglai ge, &#34028;&#33802;&#38307 on the grounds of the Yuen Yuen Institute. [3]
In addition to his studies and education in Taoism Moy Lin-shin learned a range of internal martial arts including Lok Hup Ba Fa, Tai Chi, Hsing I Ch'uan, Bagua and Taoist Qigong. One of Moy's main teachers in Hong Kong was Leung Jee-peng (Liang Tzu-peng, or Leung Chi Pang) (1900-1974), an instructor in Lok Hup Ba Fa and other arts, who was in turn a student of Wu Yi Hui. [4] Lok Hup Ba Fa is considered by some of its schools to be a combination of the three arts of Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing I Chuan, and Pa Kua Chang. Moy was taught Lok Hup Ba Fa at the Chin Woo Athletic Association in Shanghai. Moy also trained in Hong Kong with Sun Dit, a fellow student of Leung Jee-peng, who Moy said had developed skills in Hsing I Chuan and Push hands.


Moy was sent overseas with a mission of spreading the understanding of Taoism and its practices. After some travel, he settled in Montreal, Canada, and in 1970 began teaching a small group of dedicated students. In those early days, Moy taught both the health and martial arts aspects of Tai Chi. Upon moving to one of Toronto's "Chinatowns" a few years later, he changed his focus, emphasising the health giving aspects and no martial applications. Moy's choice was made with the intention of presenting his modified Tai Chi forms only as exercise, rather than as a martial art.

Moy started with a standard Yang style Tai Chi Chuan form, also saying he had mixed in elements of other internal arts, and taught it to condition students to learn Lok Hup Ba Fa later. Moy called this modified form Taoist Tai Chi. Moy emphasized the non-competitive nature of his style of teaching and of the form (see explanation in here). A teacher of Taoist Tai Chi is asked to conform to and live by what Moy called, "Eight Heavenly Virtues":

Sense of Shame 
Honor 
Sacrifice 
Propriety 
Trustworthiness 
Dedication 
Sibling Harmony 
Filial piety. 
In accordance with these virtues, Taoist Tai Chi is a form that is taught by volunteers.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Thank you for the reply but I think the questions asked were not answered.


> Ans as for Liu He Ba Fa (A synthesis of Taiji, Bagua amd Xing-I) how can you train that without martial intent?


 This is from East Wind



> Where exactly did he learn the Yang style taijiquan that he later modified?


From Xue Sheng though I am guessing the Yang form is from Liang tzu Peng.



> I do have a question does the sword work come from Yang Tai chi chuan?


 As for my queston 

Thanks


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## Xue Sheng

I also asked this which is not yet answered



Xue Sheng said:


> Xingyiquan is based on attack is defense and it is a VERY aggressive martial art. How do you remove the martial side of it and still train Xingyiquan? If you remove attack you no longer have Xingyiquan


 

Liang Tzu-peng learned Yang style from who?

I go this by clicking the link 



> Liang Tzu-peng (Leung Ji Pang) (1900 - 1974) is a noted Liuhebafa Master from Hong Kong.[citation needed] He was an instructor in Liuhebafa, Tai Chi, Baguazhang, Yiquan and Xingyi Quan and other arts. He studied Liuhebafa with Wu Yi Hui.[citation needed] Although a recognized student of Wu, Liang Tzu-peng only studied the first half of the Liuhebafa form called Zhu Ji, and devised his own personal second half from knowledge of other styles.
> Liang Tzu-peng is the teacher of Sun Dit, Li Chung, Fong Pak Sing and Moy Lin-shin, among many.[citation needed]
> Video of Leung Ji Pang performing the Zhu Ji form of Liuhebafa


 
It says Taiji but it does not say what style.


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## DaPoets

I think you are going deeper than I ever cared to research... you are asking who taught who nearly 100 years ago now...  With the internet as vast as it is, I'm sure your answers can be found through searching.  I am just a volunteer of the TTCS and even though I am increasing my knowledge, I am not the source of all knowledge.

Answers off the top of my head I will help with but to research every single question being asked of me is becoming time consuming.


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## Xue Sheng

I can go back over 100 years of lineage off the top of my head in my style of Taiji back Sifu by Sifu about Yang Luchan and with my notes Sifu by Sifu back to the founder of Chen style (Chen Wang-Ting) over 300 years and you can't go 3 generations.

And I did do an internet search and I cannot find out who taught Liang Tzu-peng, or Moy Lin-shin, Yang style that is why I asked

As to the Xingyi question I pretty much have my answer so just forget it


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## East Winds

Perhaps I can help out DaPoets and Jade Cloud Alchemist a bit. The Taoist Tai Chi Society set is exactly the sequence of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan, adapted by Moy but without the 10 essences that Yang Cheng-fu placed so much emphasis on. The TTCS sword form is an emasculated shadow of the Yang 32 Jian set.

Trying to find out who Moy's teachers were is like trying to grab a handful of mist. For instance DaPoets tells us Moy left mainland China in 1949 and as he died in his early 60's he must have been about 14 when he left China.  But apparently he was also in Shanghai at sometime where he learned Lok Hup Bat Fat (Cantonese for Liu Ho Pa Fa). He also spoke Cantonese not Mandarin as would be expected of someone born and brought up in mainland China. 

Some of the reasons I left the Society were these inconsistencies and the restrictions placed on me in relation to learning about other forms of Taiji. I have an open and enquiring mind and do not like being told that I cannot learn about other forms of Taiji or be prevented from exploring the martial side of the art. And incidentally, Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is not only a wonderful martial art, it is a superb health giving form. 

Very best wishes


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## Myrmidon

East Winds said:


> Some of the reasons I left the Society were these inconsistencies and the restrictions placed on me in relation to learning about other forms of Taiji. I have an open and enquiring mind and do not like being told that I cannot learn about other forms of Taiji or be prevented from exploring the martial side of the art. And incidentally, Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is not only a wonderful martial art, it is a superb health giving form.


*
Just out of curiosity... how were these restrictions about learning about other forms (traditional taijiquan) of Tai Chi presented to you? Did they give you any reasons for it?*


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## DaPoets

They don't come out and say don't learn other styles, but if you chose to become an instructor then this is the only style you should be a student of at that time.


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## East Winds

Moy expressly forbid any talk or practise of martial aspects of taiji. This came round as a circular from Moy himself via the Canadian HQ.  The exploration of other forms of Taiji were also considered disrespectful to Moy and again Instructors were expressly forbidden to practise or explore any other forms. 

Very best wishes


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## Myrmidon

DaPoets said:


> They don't come out and say don't learn other styles, but if you chose to become an instructor then this is the only style you should be a student of at that time.



*Any particular reason for that? I know several instructors who teach more than one style of taijiquan.

What about other martial arts? Can you be a TTCS instructor and practice some other martial art?*


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## East Winds

Myrmidon,

Quite simply the answer is a big NO.

Very best wishes


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## Myrmidon

East Winds said:


> Myrmidon,
> 
> Quite simply the answer is a big NO.
> 
> Very best wishes



*Well... too bad for those who heed that silly restriction... as long as they do it... they will not truly know the wonderful world of taijiquan...*


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## East Winds

Myrmidon,

Exactly!!!!!!

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

I'm trying not to be a jack of all trades to be honest.  The Taoist Tai Chi set has done wonders for my back, my posture, my knees, ankles, and bottom of my feet.  All of this I have had some issues w/ in the past.  Now that I am doing pretty well w/ my Taoist Tai Chi and comfortably teaching now as well (student for 12 years now) I'm picking up other forms taught w/ in the TTCS like Sword and Sabre, as well as Lok Hup Ba Fa and Hsing-I.  My goal is to master Sword and Hsing-I as best I can as not many are qualified to teach it in the US and Canada.  I can say for myself, that if I picked up learning other forms of Tai Chi, that would take away from my time and ability to really understand the benefits of the Tai Chi taught by the TTCS.  Can some do multiple styles at once and keep them separate?  Perhaps, but I would just rather be great at doing what my organization has to offer and spend the next 12 years fine tuning my skills and those of others than going outside of the group and confusing my self and potentially others as well.

I don't think there is anything wrong w/ people doing what ever they want to be honest, but w/ there being so much to learn just w/ in my organization, I don't see the need for myself to step outside it right now.  I'm happy, learning, benefiting, helping others, volunteering my time (I don't get paid to teach and neither does anyone else) and just promoting the health giving qualities of Taoist Tai Chi.  

We recently put on a banquet for over 800 people and it was ran, completely by us volunteers at our own location.  Not many Tai Chi clubs can do or say that.  I like how we all come together to help each other and do things all over the world.  My main teacher right now is in China and Australia right now helping our branches there for the full month of March.  I plan on going to Quebec City in August to help w/ the new building opening there that we have and to party as it's the 400th anniversary for the city.


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## Myrmidon

DaPoets said:


> I'm trying not to be a jack of all trades to be honest.  The Taoist Tai Chi set has done wonders for my back, my posture, my knees, ankles, and bottom of my feet.  All of this I have had some issues w/ in the past.



*Good for you!... But you must understand that you would have attained the same benefits from practicing traditional Yang style taijiquan (from which the form practiced by the TTCS comes). The same could be said if you had practiced any other style of traditional taijiquan. So, the health benefits you obtained could be attributed to your constant practice of taijiquan in general and not specifically because you practiced a particular "brand" of taijiquan.*



> Now that I am doing pretty well with my Taoist Tai Chi and comfortably teaching now as well (student for 12 years now) I'm picking up other forms taught within the TTCS like Sword and Sabre, as well as Lok Hup Ba Fa (Liu He Ba Fa) and Hsing-I.  My goal is to master Sword and Hsing-I as best I can as not many are qualified to teach it in the US and Canada.


*There are many excellent teachers of traditional Xingyiquan, Sabre and Sword in North America...*



> I can say for myself, that if I picked up learning other forms of Tai Chi, that would take away from my time and ability to really understand the benefits of the Tai Chi taught by the TTCS.


*I have never suggested that you take other forms of Tai Chi... what I am suggesting is that you should get to know the traditional Yang style taijiquan, which is basically what the TTCS teaches (its own particular version of the traditional Yang style 108 postures). You don't need to go and learn other styles such as Chen, Wu or Sun, but it would be really good for you to deepen your knowledge of the Yang style taijiquan you already know by exploring what the traditional masters of that style are doing and teaching...*



> Can some do multiple styles at once and keep them separate?  Perhaps, but I would just rather be great at doing what my organization has to offer and spend the next 12 years fine tuning my skills and those of others than going outside of the group and confusing my self and potentially others as well.


*That's precisely the problem... by confining yourself to what is taught within the TTCS you are depriving yourself of the possibility of really fine tuning what you already know by getting exposed to the traditional art.*


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> The Taoist Tai Chi set has done wonders for my back, my posture, my knees, ankles, and bottom of my feet. All of this I have had some issues w/ in the past.


 
Traditional Yang style taiji (with martial arts) did wonders for my back as well and has not hurt my knees at all. 

However the tree I encountered a few years back didn't do me much good  Taiji however has not hurt me at all... well maybe ocassionally in push hands with apps but thats fun stuff :EG:


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

I hope you will continue to contribute to this board. It was always my hope that the TTCS would lose some of its insularity and participate in the wider world of Taiji in general. Myrmidon gives some good advice which I hope you will take on board in the spirit it was given. You will find the people on this board both knowledgeable, experienced and generous with their hard earned knowledge. There is a lot to be learned about Taiji's different styles here. You do not have to practise other styles, but you should at least try and learn something about them. Would you become proficient in English literature if you only read the works of William Shakespear?

Please keep contributing and don't be put off by old cynics like me who spent a lot of Instructor time with the TTCS. Some of us have been where you are now.

Very best wishes

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

I'm not really put off and I came here to share my insight as well as take in as much as I could as well.  This weekend I'll be learning the TTCS Sword Style from Friday morning through to Sunday afternoon and I'm very much excited about it.  Again this will be at the temple in Orangeville Canada where I was this past weekend for a Women & Tai Chi session all weekend.  I did have a nice little crash course in Saber of the weekend as I'll be going to Columbus Ohio in 2 weeks to study Saber there for a weekend.  Yes I'm learning both at basicly the same time..... but I'm willing to take on the task since I'll be able to practice with others about 5 nights a week who have been doing these for many years now.

I have come to this site as I am very much open minded, and I know that even though I have gained enough experience to teach others, I really don't know all that much even after having been doing this for 12 years now.  I will always be a student and I will never consider myself a master of anything but my goals are always to master what I do.

It was kinda funny though as I though of all of you as we worked on making sure that everything we did it was good for the knees... we spent probably about 4 hours over the weekend just on angles to ensure good posture and keeping the knees in a healthy position.


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## East Winds

I learned both Sword and Sabre with the TTCS, but since beginning Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan I realise the limitations of the TTCS forms. 

A good thing to remember when doing these forms is that "Sword is for the Surgeon, Sabre is for the Butcher".

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

Yes I believe John Huang will be teaching Sword this weekend as I have heard through the grapevine and when he does Sword it's so incredibly fluid it's jaw dropping.  His Saber is stellar as well but Saber is just so quick... I like the length of the Sword set more.


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> A good thing to remember when doing these forms is that "Sword is for the Surgeon, Sabre is for the Butcher".


 
Then I guess I'm a Butcher :EG: I have always preferred the Dao over the Jain

Actually speaking historically the Dao was used more by the military and the Jain was for the gentry/officials if you will.


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## DaPoets

Very correct Xue Sheng.  Saber is a warriors blade and used a lot for close combat fighting.  The sword is of "high class" (stand back so I may cut you and not get your blood on my clothing)  

In the TTCS we actually do call them taijijian and taijidao now but still put (sword) or (saber) next to them to get people used to the terms.  In the past we didn't use those traditional terms as many of our members are not as well versed as others in the terminology.


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## newGuy12

Well, I can say this:  There is a Taoist Tai Chi group here in my city.  I attended their classes and learned the motions of the form.  I practiced with them often, and found benefit from it.  Now, I went mostly out of curiousity, to see what it was about.   

I think its great that the old people were given this way of benefiting their health.  I asked them when we would learn to employ these motions, to fight with -- they told me that they do not practice the fighting part, but concentrate on health only.  The students were mostly members of the local orchestra (the advanced students, at least), and were fine people, I had much fun with them, they were people that I would not have crossed paths with had it not been for this practice.  That alone was interesting to me.

Now, I do not practice this Tai-Chi in any way now, because I prefer the more outward ways -- and the flashy motions in TKD, but that is just my personality. 

Though the TTC does not teach any fighting, I can still see great value in its practice, because I myself have felt benefit in my body -- yes -- particularly with the knee!

Also, my personality is such that I do not wish to engage in training that takes SO LONG to learn well.  I do not have enough patience for that, again, that is just my personality.





Regards,

Robert


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## Myrmidon

newGuy12 said:


> Now, I do not practice this Tai-Chi in any way now, because I prefer the more outward ways -- and the flashy motions in TKD, but that is just my personality.



*You may like this:*


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## DaPoets

I think any type of art takes a long time to become profficient at, but of course there are many types where the basic moves are very powerful and are quick to become second nature.  Tai Chi does take many many years to get used to and I guess that's something I appreciate about it.  One of my friends that started w/ me in 1996 didn't last long as he said he just wanted to come out and do a jump kick and tackle someone after coming out of a single whip lol but my 2nd friend that started w/ me still practices today ( just in another city).

I think this is very common and thus people of like minds tend to find similar martial arts to practice.


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## Xue Sheng

I believe it was Chen Xiaowang that said that Taiji as a martial art was virtually dead just based on the number of people that do it for health and only know the health side of it as compared to those that actually know the martial arts of it as well. There are so few by comparison that know the MA of it or want to know the MA of it that it will not be long before virtually no one knows Taiji as a martial art. 

Think about it, how many people actually know taiji is a martial art, even amongst the martial art community.

This to me is quite sad but if doing taiji for health is someone&#8217;s thing than I will not try and stop them all I ask is that they do not try and get me to stop doing the MA of taiji or force there views of taiji training on me and so far over the years in my training there have been a few who tried in one way or another.


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## Myrmidon

*Don't despair, Xue Sheng, Tai Chi Chuan (with the "chuan") is alive and well!*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIpU6S_RDew&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH0nZGnl5zQ&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk68WsIoAGg&feature




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtQXLjmDJVg&feature


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## newGuy12

Whoa!


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## Xue Sheng

Myrmidon said:


> *Don't despair, Xue Sheng, Tai Chi Chuan (with the "chuan") is alive and well!*
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIpU6S_RDew&feature
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH0nZGnl5zQ&feature
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk68WsIoAGg&feature
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtQXLjmDJVg&feature


 
Thanks, nice clips, I have seen clips of Chen Zhonghua before and he is rather good. 

But it is not just those that do not want MA it is those that are claiming they are doing taiji as a martial art when they in fact are not, too much force to much wrestling. I have said it before, my taiji Sifu is the only person I have ever had use Qinna on me and I absolutely do not feel it coming. 

I no longer let any of it get to me, I use to, I just see many more that do not do the MA than do. I do however still see more Chen stylists that are interested in MA that are not but things are changing there to and not for the better. Yang style has been hit by this hard and there are an awful lot of people out there learning Yang without MA. My Sifu will ad does teach taiji with the MA intact but most of his students do not want to learn or do the MA of it they just want forms, forms and more forms and it makes it very difficult to train the MA when so few care to know it. But I just train and let them go and that is all I can do.


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## DaPoets

As for many of us "westerners" when we think taiji we think old people moving slowly to some type of martial art for health... and that is exactly how it's portraid in the media when you see commercials for health products, there is always some person in their late 50's trying to stay young doing taiji.  Media plays a powerful role.  Now if those same commercials that were focusing on health showed an old lady do a taijiquan move against a young mugger, then perseption about taiji would change.

For me, it's not about the form, it's not about MA, it's about health, longevity, and overall improvement of body, mind, spirit.  I do believe that it's harder to improve the mind and spirit if the body is not healthy, thus I practice taijiquan 5 nights a week, play indoor soccer twice a week, ski when I can, and keep up w/ my fiance who is 23 ;-)  (I'm 30).

After I become exceptionally good at what TTCS has to offer; taijiquan, taijijian, taijidao, lok kup ba fa, hsing-i and the meditations, I will probably take a hyatus from the TTCS for a while to explore other styles both hard and soft again.  When will that happen, who's to say... but I know it probably will happen and I look forward to it as well.


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> As for many of us "westerners" when we think taiji we think old people moving slowly to some type of martial art for health... and that is exactly how it's portraid in the media when you see commercials for health products, there is always some person in their late 50's trying to stay young doing taiji. Media plays a powerful role. Now if those same commercials that were focusing on health showed an old lady do a taijiquan move against a young mugger, then perseption about taiji would change.


 
Or just watch my 70 year old, half my size, taiji teacher throw me around like a rag doll 



DaPoets said:


> For me, it's not about the form, it's not about MA, it's about health, longevity, and overall improvement of body, mind, spirit. I do believe that it's harder to improve the mind and spirit if the body is not healthy, thus I practice taijiquan 5 nights a week, play indoor soccer twice a week, ski when I can, and keep up w/ my fiance who is 23 ;-) (I'm 30).
> 
> After I become exceptionally good at what TTCS has to offer; taijiquan, taijijian, taijidao, lok kup ba fa, hsing-i and the meditations, I will probably take a hyatus from the TTCS for a while to explore other styles both hard and soft again. When will that happen, who's to say... but I know it probably will happen and I look forward to it as well.


 
Damn!!!! I almost remember when I was 30 

Hey whatever makes you happy in yor chosen art.


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## ggg214

one thing for not only taiji but for most of CMA,never changed, is that the real one is handled only in small part of practitioners. we call it lineage.
why? because the real CMA requires many characters for its successors. because of its internal (not just in taiji, but in CMA), it only could be taught one by one.that is why i am so confused that some one who study in a big class can learn the real taiji.
but that's ok, for health, i think what they are doing is enough. for fighting, it's totally the different way.the latter way is my way, and fortunately, i have two masters who are experts.


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## DaPoets

please forgive me... CMA??  Contact Martial Arts??


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## shesulsa

DaPoets said:


> please forgive me... CMA??  Contact Martial Arts??


Um ... I believe that would be "Chinese Martial Arts."


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## newGuy12

ggg214 said:


> because of its internal (not just in taiji, but in CMA), it only could be taught one by one.



Please excuse me, but this is something that I wish to clear up -- the CMA are mostly taught one - on - one, in so-called "private sessions".  The reason for this is because they deal with this Internal Energy?  The reason is not because of custom then?  It is so that the Teacher can somehow "feel" or observe this Internal Energy?

I ask because I was once told by a Teacher of an Art that is NOT a CMA, it is a hard style, that he gave only private lessons.  This is his business, of course.  He will instruct any way that he wishes.  But it was interesting to me that he said, "traditionally, the Chinese taught this way, privately". 

But, I see now, that private lessons were done for some reason to do with the nature of the CMA being taught, not because of some custom.


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## Xue Sheng

newGuy12 said:


> Please excuse me, but this is something that I wish to clear up -- the CMA are mostly taught one - on - one, in so-called "private sessions". The reason for this is because they deal with this Internal Energy? The reason is not because of custom then? It is so that the Teacher can somehow "feel" or observe this Internal Energy?
> 
> I ask because I was once told by a Teacher of an Art that is NOT a CMA, it is a hard style, that he gave only private lessons. This is his business, of course. He will instruct any way that he wishes. But it was interesting to me that he said, "traditionally, the Chinese taught this way, privately".
> 
> But, I see now, that private lessons were done for some reason to do with the nature of the CMA being taught, not because of some custom.


 
It can depend on the style of CMA the Sifu of said CMA and the country in which the CMA is being taught. 

But in general the higher up you go in CMA the few the students. My Sifu has only a few taiji students as it is but him and I work on many things after everyone leaves. It is not a secret it is just I am ready to learn this and others are not in his opinion. On occasion there are 2 or 3 of us for some push hands things but generally it is just him and I and that is when I learn the most these days.

My ex-Sifu, from my short time in Wing Chun, only teaches the higher level stuff in private classes.

My ex-sifu, from my first years in CMA, will teach only large groups and teaches only form and he teaches not much else in private classes either.


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## DaPoets

We have a few instructors that teach higher level things in the TTCS and they are taught on a one on one basis but the class is there as well able to observe.  What is taught is the specifics for that one individual based on their level of understanding, body type, and ability.  The class learns not only from what observing what that individual learns but also how the instructor is pin pointing things that need to be corrected or improved upon (next level)... showing us what was ok in the past but can now be "tweaked" because ability has increased.  This gives everyone a better understanding of how one's taiji can progress based on those factors.  A move I did 10 years ago is no longer appropriate for me to practice but it is a move I would teach someone who is new and would bennifit from it.

For me, when I practice certain moves, I feel it toward the back of my neck where someone else doing that same move only feels it in their lower back.  Years ago I was at that point of the lower back always being worked but now I feel it all along my spine and it's a wonderful sensation.  It's taken years of practice and when my instructor said (in cantonese) "People practice for 25 years to be able to do that as you are now" and said "YaY ME!!" and everyone shouted out in laughter.  Yes it was a one on one session but everyone was practicing doing their version of the move based on their abilities and understanding.


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## ggg214

newGuy12 said:


> Please excuse me, but this is something that I wish to clear up -- the CMA are mostly taught one - on - one, in so-called "private sessions". The reason for this is because they deal with this Internal Energy? The reason is not because of custom then? It is so that the Teacher can somehow "feel" or observe this Internal Energy?


 
now i find out that every CMA has training part to deal with the internal body. as i have said before, even in the same stance, two persons in defferent level can be different. that is because of the internal body.i mean that this part of CMA is undercovered, so it's not easy for master to make a judgement on whether your posture is right or wrong in first glimpse.and for student, it's also not easy to understand how the internal is going through watching master's movement. how to teach this part of CMA, i think, is only the feel, using hand touching, using listening and asking face to face, or some other direct way. so it only could be taught in private lesson.
after years pass, i think it could be called a custom too.


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## DaPoets

I'm leaving tonight for the Taoist Temple in Orangeville Canada to study the Taoist Tai Chi Sword set until Sunday night. I'm very excited to do nothing for the next few days but eat, sleep, and study sword.


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## DaPoets

This was a pretty amazing weekend...  It took me a lot of extra practice, but I'm able to get through the full 53 movements of the Taoist taijijian by myself.  It really works my thighs, hips, upper and lower spine as well as my ankles.  From Friday morning through to Sunday afternoon it was about 20 hours of instruction not including all the extra time and late nights we all spent in the secondary practice hall working with each other on the moves and sequence.  I guess I was picking it up quickly because even though this was my 1st time taking it (75% took it before), they eventually made me set leader to keep the pace and movement sequence.  When I got back to buffalo Sunday I opened up our TTCS branch at about 6pm and practiced off and on until 11pm.  I was told to practice every day for a couple hours a day for 21 days by the elder Taoist woman who lives there and would pop in and out durring the weekend to do a set with us.  I'm going to take what she said to heart.  

By the end of the weekend, when I was doing the regular Taoist Tai Chi set I found I was accidently making the sword symble in my left hand on certain moves ;-)  and my left thumb was even cramping up at one time as I was a bit too tense I guess.


Great times!


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## Xue Sheng

Glad to hear you had a good a productive weekend of training

Enjoy the training
XS


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

Yes, nice to hear you enjoyed your seminar. However, did you learn the three basic hand positions for Jian? Did you learn about the three parts of the blade and their uses? Did you differentiate between the top and bottom of the blade? Did you learn any of the applications of Jian? Did you practise with or without the tassel? My recollection of learning TTCS sword form was that none of these basic issues were addressed.

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

I didn't go their for application, and neither did anyone else.... As you know TTCS is not here for teaching application, it is here for health.  If I want to learn application I would eventually go to a different school, but that is not my cup of tea these days nor is it for anyone else that attended.  It was a full weekend to just get through the 53 movements and to make sure that I could do them all on my own in sequence.  After a few months of practicing everyday I will be spending more time with some of the more senior instructors like Tony Kwan and John Huang as their knowledge of all of this is on a level I can only hope to attain.  I did find a VHS of Mrs Kwan doing Hsing-I in the old practice hall in Orangeville (our international center) and that is very impressive as well.  I saw John Huang do Hsing-I a number of times as well as taijijian & taijidao and even though it's the same set, his level of being able to do it, form, energy/force is just a whole other level...

I believe what is more valuable than learning how to stab or cut someone w/ the sword, is knowing the benifits a certain move is doing for your spine and chest.  I don't ever plan on being in a sword fight even though anything is possible.... but I do plan on living a very long time (again anything is possible) and to do this I want to be in the best health I can be so that this long life of mine is a quality one, not one of being in an "old folks home" watching Wheel of Fortune.  Everyone here has their desires/drives that brings them to learn an art.  Some want to look fancy, some want to know how to protect themselves and others, some want long life and good health, and some just think it's "cool".  I think those that want to make sure that an art is pure and continues to be handed down from generation to generation is top knotch and I think that is what many people on this forum are striving for based on all of our conversations so far.  I see how many of you want me to be open and learn as much as I can about the many things taiji has to offer and I commend you for that.  It would be a very sad thing for taiji to be lost in time...  for me, my way of passing down taiji for health is to be the best TTCS member/instructor that I can be by not only working on my taiji, but also working on chanting and eventually meditations.  They are all connected and each one improves the others.

How to old the sword was in different moves in the set were covered.  Chris Lewis taught this class.  He spent many years traveling around w/ Mr. Moy.  Chris currently teaches continuing classes one night a week only 70 miles from my house so I'm going to try to get there about twice a month to further perfect my taijiquan & taijijian more than I can do here in buffalo.  I go to D'Arcy (toronto) about once a week to learn there as well. (HQ for TTCS where Mr. Moy taught his main classes and lived)


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

If you genuinely came to this board to learn, then you are certainly more than welcome. However if you came to gain some publicity for the TTCS or tell us that TTCS forms are the only ones that are good for health, then you are definitely in the wrong place. We do not learn Jian to "Stab" people and if you believe that then you are demonstrating the paucity of TTCS teaching. 

When we do Taijiquan we are trying to move energy through the body and into the hands. Energy (Chi or Jin) is produced by the interaction of Yin and Yang. "Energy originates in the feet, is issued by the legs, is governed by the waist, and expressed by the fingers". In Jian we need to move the energy beyond the fingers and into the sword blade. We therefore need to know which part of the blade we are transmitting the energy to. The top third of the blade would have been as sharp as a razor and used for cutting tendons, arteries and veins. The middle third of the blade (which was not as sharp) would have been used for long cuts, horizontally, vertically and diagonally. The bottom third which was not sharp at all, would have been used for blocking and parrying. Good health comes from correct body alignment (allowing the clear flow of energy) and correct body alignment results in correct martial applications. So to dismiss the "martial" as an irrelevance is totally wrong. 

I've already written too much for one post and I've only touched on the sword blade!!!! If you don't attempt to transmit energy into the blade, you would be as well waving a stick around. When you next do your sword form, think beyond your hand and try and think what you would actually be doing with the blade.

Very best wishes


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