# Time in Rank



## NEOKOSHO (Mar 15, 2008)

Hello All
I am new to the forum and fairly new to kempo. I am curious as to what the usual time that one would spend at each level up the ranks? I understand that it is a general question but just curious.  I also  understand that  focus on rank is not important when compared to the path. Just wondering if there as a general guideline that is followed.

Thanks for any replies.


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 15, 2008)

I am going to answer in terms of general karate.  I use these guides, even though we are a distant branch of kempo.

Around 4 years to black belt.
3-4 years for 2nd degree black belt
3 years to 3rd degree black belt
4 years to 4rth degree black belt
5 years to 5th degree
6 years to 6th degree
7 years to 7th degree
and on......

That is cummulative, so it would take about 20 years to get to 5th degree black belt.  
Also, those dates are approximate.  Those are the low numbers; if it takes longer to get that rank, then that is even better.

AoG


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## KenpoDave (Mar 15, 2008)

Similar in Tracy's.  It typically takes 3-4 to get shodan, 1-2 to get nidan, then the same scale after that.


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## NEOKOSHO (Mar 15, 2008)

Thanks for the responses. 
I intend on practicing as long as possible.


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## Doc (Mar 16, 2008)

Lower Division: minimum 100 hours per rank


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## Jdokan (Mar 16, 2008)

Doc said:


> Lower Division: minimum 100 hours per rank


 
That's every year....


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## Doc (Mar 16, 2008)

Jdokan said:


> That's every year....



My teacher taught me that to judge in years is imprudent because it is too vague. He used to say, "Why is it when you ask someone how long they have been "studying," they always give you the time period from when they started to when you ask the question?"

If a person has a full-time job and they tell you they've been there for two years, you can do the math. Minimum forty hours per week X five days a week. In other words, there is a general standard that can be adjusted by subtracting vacations, holidays, and weekends, depending on the job to determine fairly accurately how much time they actually put in.

To say they've been in the arts for two years means nothing. How many days per week? How many hours per day? Any time off for injuries? Vacation? Taking care of the kids? Going to school? How about fatigue? How about whether they're just sparring, or are they actually studying material? Do you count the time when they just come in to watch? How often do they miss because they're just busy?

My teacher taught me that if you want a more accurate measure of time, do what they do in academia, count "academic hours." That is actual time in the classroom. Oddly enough, when it comes to getting paid, most jobs do the same because it is the most accurate way to determine actual "work."

Counting years means nothing. That's why we have so many people with "years" under their belt, and no significant skill or knowledge to back it up. Only in the arts do the number of years you've been hanging around count toward advancement. The general assumption is you've worked your butt off studying and training during that period. The reality is much less so. "Back in the day" before it became a business industry the assumptions made sense. When I started, you were in the school at every opportunity, and the teacher had to put you out and lock the door to get you to leave. Then years made sense, because the assumption was true. Not any more.

My students are given course material for each rank. Each course requires a minimum number of academic hours of classroom time. It is also factored in that a maximum of 20% of hours may be "audited" to account for injuries, and fatigue and still participate in the class. Students have time sheets, and they must record, log, and have their hours verified at the end of every class session. Audited classes or hours are recorded as such and placed in their file. We have no children.

Only after students reach the minimum required for the course, may they petition to test for advancement. When they petition, Instructors monitor the physical participation, and they must submit their hours, notebooks, personal notes, and all academic material that demonstrates their academic participation. The petition must be approved, and then the written examination is administered. If the written exam is passed, then the practical physical exam is scheduled. There are no shortcuts. Students are academically competent, demonstrate solid foundational skills, move with physical competency, and are demonstrably effective.

Although it may sound stringent, in reality it is just a competent program. It is run as it should be if you're going to award ranks of competency in areas that potentially could be life threatening, or at the least serious physical injury. My students love it and are so immersed in the process, they have to be reminded when they are eligible to test. Additionally, because upper ranks (brown and black) don't wear stripes, often student have to be reminded of what they're rank actually is. I recall one of the browns telling me he was surprised to learn he was 2nd brown. I asked him, Didn't you know?" He said, "I didn't remember until I was thumbing through my notebook and saw the diploma." This is how My Teacher wanted me to teach. Modeled after academic institutions, he had a dream of an accredited college teaching Martial Science one day." Hopefully my students will get it done one day.

Their attitude, knowledge, and ability at all levels pays respect to my teacher's work. For me, that's all that matters.


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## Carol (Mar 16, 2008)

Doc said:


> It is run as it should be if you're going to award ranks of competency in areas that potentially could be life threatening, or at the least serious physical injury.



There you go making sense again...


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## Doc (Mar 16, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> There you go making sense again...



I try.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 17, 2008)

Doc said:


> My teacher taught me that to judge in years is imprudent because it is too vague.


Sounds like wisdom at work.



> My students are given course material for each rank. Each course requires a minimum number of academic hours of classroom time. It is also factored in that a maximum of 20% of hours may be "audited" to account for injuries, and fatigue and still participate in the class. Students have time sheets, and they must record, log, and have their hours verified at the end of every class session. Audited classes or hours are recorded as such and placed in their file.


Well, have some of this in place, but see I have some smithing to do. And just when I was beginning to think I knew something. 



> Although it may sound stringent, in reality it is just a competent program.


Actually, I don't get the sense it's stringent at all. Was in some programs early in my training that set _myriad _hoops to jump through, and were infinitely more complex than this. But I learned much less there than it sounds like your students are. I see why they're so engaged.


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## MJS (Mar 17, 2008)

Doc said:


> My teacher taught me that to judge in years is imprudent because it is too vague. He used to say, "Why is it when you ask someone how long they have been "studying," they always give you the time period from when they started to when you ask the question?"
> 
> If a person has a full-time job and they tell you they've been there for two years, you can do the math. Minimum forty hours per week X five days a week. In other words, there is a general standard that can be adjusted by subtracting vacations, holidays, and weekends, depending on the job to determine fairly accurately how much time they actually put in.
> 
> ...


 
Great reply as always Doc.   One of the many things that caught my eye about this post, is when you said you have no kids.  It would be rather interesting to see how other schools would do, if they adopted the above policy.  My guess is that there would be alot of unhappy campers, because they're more interested in keeping up with Johnny, rather than getting solid material.  

Mike


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 17, 2008)

Yup yup. I think Doc at one point trialed a kids program and there's one survivor who's been with Doc for like 10+ years...he moves like the adults, hits like the adults, and speaks like the adults. He's definitely not a kid. And he's a great testament to his teacher.


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2008)

MJS said:


> Great reply as always Doc.   One of the many things that caught my eye about this post, is when you said you have no kids.  It would be rather interesting to see how other schools would do, if they adopted the above policy.  My guess is that there would be alot of unhappy campers, because they're more interested in keeping up with Johnny, rather than getting solid material.
> 
> Mike



Keep in mind this is precisely what Ed Parker suggested "for me" in my teaching, so it's not my idea sir.


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Yup yup. I think Doc at one point trialed a kids program and there's one survivor who's been with Doc for like 10+ years...he moves like the adults, hits like the adults, and speaks like the adults. He's definitely not a kid. And he's a great testament to his teacher.



Mr. Parker assigned my 7th thesis project. It was to create a ranking structured that factored in the proliferation of young people into the schools, and maintained some integrity of the ranking process for the IKKA. He had also bounced the idea off me of creating a "parent" organization called the World Kenpo Karate Association - WKKA that all would transition through before they could come into the IKKA to preserve rank integrity as well. I do not know if he ever mentioned this to Joe Palonzo, but I digress.

In the mid-eighties I experimented with a "kids and teen youth" program, and installed various rank award structures, and monitored how they were received by the participants. It was quite successful and proved my supposition. I have some great pictures from that experiment. After Mr. Parker passed I wanted to revisit my ideas, and update them so in the late nineties I did the same, and it too was successful. 

The surviving product was a 7 year old named David Oda. Now one of my black belts, a junior at Cal Berkley, and turning 21 in May. When I killed the program, his father refused and insisted he continue to study, and he and his parents have followed me ever since. It wasn't too difficult as David was and is an exceptional person. Graduated with a 4.5 gpa from high school as student body president. League MVP as a point guard, soccer goalie, and "B" football tailback. If only all the kids (and parents) were like him.

Before someone asks, The thesis was done before the age of personal computers had evolved in my house, so the thesis in its entirety has been lost. I have elements of it but not the whole thing. I have started on several occasions to simply rewrite the thing. After all it's in my head, but its just too much work when I'm writing more meaningful things for our program right now. 

Simply, its a cellular approach to rank divided by age and purpose, with each wearing a slightly different instrument designator that corresponds to in some cases adjusted focused curriculum. The Old Man loved it, told many about it, but sadly didn't have the opportunity to implement it.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 17, 2008)

Woohoo . Mr. Oda is indeed an exceptional individual.

Also - where's that thesis again? *ducks*


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 17, 2008)

Second thought. Why not just turn on the camera or recorder & dictate it. It'd take less time to record that way and you could always have someone transcribe it to free it up. ;-)


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Second thought. Why not just turn on the camera or recorder & dictate it. It'd take less time to record that way and you could always have someone transcribe it to free it up. ;-)



Sounds easy, but it's not. It was in-depth that covered everything from what the uniforms/belts would be, how you handle students transferring from other schools at all levels, to the actual curriculum for each division. It would have to be first reconstructed to be dictated. I don't teach children, so I have no reason to reconstitute the work when I'm significantly focused elsewhere. Until I get a compelling reason to do so, it will remain a back burner project.


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2008)

MJS said:


> Great reply as always Doc.   One of the many things that caught my eye about this post, is when you said you have no kids.  It would be rather interesting to see how other schools would do, if they adopted the above policy.  My guess is that there would be alot of unhappy campers, because they're more interested in keeping up with Johnny, rather than getting solid material.
> 
> Mike



I never said it was financially successful.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 17, 2008)

Heh...gotta find the right carrot to dangle in front of Doc...gotta pick your brain while I can. Currently off work with back issues again. =/


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Heh...gotta find the right carrot to dangle in front of Doc...gotta pick your brain while I can. Currently off work with back issues again. =/



That is going to put a crimp in your upcoming "activities."


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 17, 2008)

Sigh. I'm already well aware of the "difficulties" it's posing. On the bright side, my pops decided he didn't like the idea of me driving 10 hours to San Diego with my back like this so he popped for the express jet flight from monterey -> san diego.  MRI I'm supposed to hear back from for appointment on Wed. We'll see, I spose.


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## jks9199 (Mar 17, 2008)

Doc said:


> Simply, its a cellular approach to rank divided by age and purpose, with each wearing a slightly different instrument designator that corresponds to in some cases adjusted focused curriculum. The Old Man loved it, told many about it, but sadly didn't have the opportunity to implement it.



Um...  If you say that's putting it simply!  

Actually, I'm confident it was well thought out and clearly explained.  But I don't think it compresses down in a way that's meaningful to without the background in education.  (Kind of like if I said that I ordered someone out of the car per _Mimms_ prior to conducting a Carroll search.)


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 18, 2008)

Doc's entire facility is geared towards information transfer with maximum efficiency. Kinda how educational institutions are supposed to run...yanno? *badum clang*


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## MJS (Mar 20, 2008)

Doc said:


> I never said it was financially successful.


 
Agreed.  And that is what seperates the folks who're interested in teaching the art and having people learn it right, compared to the McDojos.  I'd say you certainly don't fall into the Mcdojo category. 

Mike


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## Doc (Mar 20, 2008)

MJS said:


> Agreed.  And that is what seperates the folks who're interested in teaching the art and having people learn it right, compared to the McDojos.  I'd say you certainly don't fall into the Mcdojo category.
> 
> Mike



Well, to use your analogy sir, "You definitely can't have it your way." - 

Hell, you can't even find us!


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 20, 2008)

Hah I just watched Pirates of the Caribbean.

"It is an island that cannot be found except by those who already know where it is."


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Hah I just watched Pirates of the Caribbean.
> 
> "It is an island that cannot be found except by those who already know where it is."


 
but you can only find it by getting completely lost!!??

marlon


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 21, 2008)

Heh nono that was part 3 trying to get to Davey Jones' locker.  My quote was the first movie looking for Isle de Muerta.


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## KempoKop (Mar 22, 2008)

I just started back in the martial arts, but when I took Kempo years ago it was pretty much (average) in the dojo a belt a year. So most people obtained their black belt in about 9 to 10 years of study.


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## Madmatt (Mar 22, 2008)

I  am in the right place from the posts I have read. I am an old school Martial Artist that has been studing how to defend myself for 40 plus years. The first ten where the hardest. 
How many teachers know nothing outside of there Art. 
Who digs deep into what ,why, where, who and how. 
Each of my students must read a book and hand in a report before they test. 
There is a set of books to read to teach in my school.
Who made Mr.Ed Parker a 10th? Or what?

Matt
Okinawa te


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 31, 2008)

Hey Doc, sidebar I just thought of - did your boys ever finally get their portraits put up on the wall?


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## Doc (Apr 3, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Hey Doc, sidebar I just thought of - did your boys ever finally get their portraits put up on the wall?



I took them all down. The guys aren't interested.


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## Kenpo17 (Jan 14, 2009)

My knowledge, and my own time from white to yellow belt took me around four to five months, from yellow to orange belt it took me around four to five month, and so on until green belt.  Once I recieved my green belt I waited a good 10 to 11 months to recieve my 3rd degree brown belt, it took me about another 7 to 8 months to recieve my 2nd degree brown belt, and another 7 to 8 month for my 1st degree brown (red) belt.  Today in American Kenpo, and maybe in Chinese Kempo, I am not sure, the Kenpo board changed the 1st degree brown to a red belt.  Anyway, it took me about a year from 1st degree brown to 1st degree black belt, and another 2 years from 1st degree black to 2nd degree black where I am currently at.  It will take me another 3 years to recieve my third degree black belt.


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## tomshem (Jan 14, 2009)

Doc said:


> My teacher taught me that to judge in years is imprudent because it is too vague. He used to say, "Why is it when you ask someone how long they have been "studying," they always give you the time period from when they started to when you ask the question?"
> 
> If a person has a full-time job and they tell you they've been there for two years, you can do the math. Minimum forty hours per week X five days a week. In other words, there is a general standard that can be adjusted by subtracting vacations, holidays, and weekends, depending on the job to determine fairly accurately how much time they actually put in.
> 
> ...


 
A wise and superior response...

Where I teach, I can barely contain myself with how students "expect" to be rewarded rank based solely upon the passage of time...

Cheers


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## youngbraveheart (Aug 31, 2012)

The last blackbelt in the Chow/Chun System got his promotion two years ago after close to 20 years of training. The blackbelt before that had probably about the same number of years. We do not have regular promotions. Promotions are at our teacher's discretion and are few and far between. I've had three formal promotions in 12 years, so I still have a ways to go. Up until about three years ago, I was the most "junior" student. Not many have been allowed to train with us. Of those who were allowed to train not many have stayed.


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