# Do you have a progressive mind set?



## futsaowingchun (Nov 5, 2021)

Sifu Michael McIlwrath
Nov,4 2021

I like to share how I feel about the martial art 
called Wing Chun I've practiced for 40+ years.

 A lot of people may think Wing Chun is a complete martial art , and feel compelled to keep it pure by only passing it on the way they have learnt it. Basically,  Sifu says “do not inject your own ideas here”. However, others may feel differently that Wing Chun is a great martial art but an incomplete one, So some may feel the answer is to learn other arts like Bjj, Muy Thai or MMA to fill in their holes. Well, this will certainly make you a well rounded martial artist and perhaps a better fighter, but what  does it do for your mother art Wing Chun? Did you make it better, did you progress the art further? 

One drawback to learning multiple styles, to complement your Wing Chun takes resources and a long investment in time which could otherwise be used to mastering your Wing Chun. So what is the alternative?

My self what I've been doing with my Wing Chun is not learning a bunch of styles to improve myself and my Wing Chun, but instead have spent over a decade transforming my Wing chun or other words progressed my Wing Chun beyond the level I've been taught. Now this does not mean I've collected a bunch of techniques from other martial systems and imported them into my Wing Chun,but Instead what I've done is progressed my Wing Chun by going beyond what Wing Chun is known for such as Centerline Theory , and the immovable elbow concept to name but a few. 

My idea was to find out what is Wing Chun's strong points and it's week points then using my  basic tools to use them in a different or out of the box way. The first thing I've noticed about Wing Chun is that it's overly  linear,  and relies almost completely on the Centerline Theory for it to function. Another words, the weak point is its over use of the Centerline and your ability to maintain Centerline dominance. When two Chunners Chi Sao or Sparr they are always fighting over Centerline which usually  comes into play an over use of force and strength which often not clash with the Centerline.. 

My first thought was why waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline. If your opponent wants Centerline, let him have it. Let him believe he has the superior position when in reality it's relative. It's the skill of the opponent not the Centerline that will determine the Victor. This idea is  what I call Center point theory which is not using your Centerline, but locking onto the center point or mass of the opponent.. By doing this you can allow your opponent to take Centerline and not waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline dominance. Center point theory does not concern itself with keeping your elbow on Your Centerline and having the proper elbow distance to maintain, but instead locking onto your opponent's mass and thereby affecting their whole body not just a Limb like what happens most of the time when you're concerned about Centerline. 

Center point Theory uses a floating elbow instead of the common Immovable elbow theory.The immovable elbow is used and needed for control over the Centerline, but with Center point theory the elbow simply floats like a boat  on top of the water and moves to how the tides flow. 

So what's the point of Center point theory? Well, it's my resolve to Centerline Theory not so much as a replacement but as the next level of Wing Chun development. You could say Wing Chun's 4th form called Center Point theory.Centerpoint is a continuation of the 3rd form. If Wing Chun's most advanced form is Bil Gee then I would say this comes next. Center point theory is designed to shut down your opponent Centerline.. If Wing Chun can only function if you have control over your Centerline then what can you do when it's taken away from you and you can take it back? 

I know that the Biu Gee form deals with certain situations when your elbow is off Centerline and teaches you how to regain or cover it, but this the exception not the rule or what I call Standard operating procedure. The problem is Wing Chun can only optimally function by maintaining and controlling your centerline. Because Wing Chun's primary function  was created as a Centerline fighting focused art. Surely, Wing Chun’s Centerline theory and usage is an extremely valuable and important guiding concept for the Wing Chun practitioner, But as fighting arts evolve and change, so must Wing Chun. As great as the foundational principle of the Centerline theory is, it can also be a weakness if one can only use their Wing Chun within those confined conditions. 

So, isn't it time to progress your Wing Chun to the next level?


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## wckf92 (Nov 5, 2021)

There is a lot to unpack here. I will do a more thorough reply tomorrow.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> If your opponent wants Centerline, let him have it.


I agree that if your opponent

- wants your centerline, let him have it.
- doesn't want his centerline, you take it.

Both seem contradict to each other. IMO, we need to have the ability to do both.

Also the WC sticky hand training should include how to deal with hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, back fist, ... 

There are some tools that you may not use, but you can't assume that your opponent won't use it.


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## drop bear (Nov 5, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> Sifu Michael McIlwrath
> Nov,4 2021
> 
> I like to share how I feel about the martial art
> ...



How exactly did you go about developing this new outlook?


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I agree that if your opponent
> 
> - wants your centerline, let him have it.
> - doesn't want his centerline, you take it.
> ...


yes and a whole lot more..how about throws, sprawls , weapons etc.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 5, 2021)

drop bear said:


> How exactly did you go about developing this new outlook?


I would say my last teacher had a lot to do with it, but as he went his way I went mine..These ideas just pop into my mind then I try it it to see if it works or not..My Wing Chun is changing very quickly almost on a daily ..The main thin is its important to me to progess myself and my wing chun as opposed  to importing other arts into it. These to things are very different.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> yes and a whole lot more..how about throws, sprawls , weapons etc.


If one wants to have a complete cold weapon training, he will need to train:

- dagger.
- single edge knife.
- double edges sword.
- staff.
- spear.
- Guan Dao.
- ...

If one wants to train the throwing art, he will need to learn 230 different throws.

The day that I started to train the throwing art, the day that I had to give up all my cold weapon training.

I like your approach. I have always believed if I can't add new information into MA, it can be a big waste for me to come to this world.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 6, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> Sifu Michael McIlwrath
> Nov,4 2021
> 
> I like to share how I feel about the martial art
> ...


What do you know about the southern Snake, Crane, and Dragon styles?  Not in years, details please, so I can help fill in the gaps for you.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 6, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> ideas just pop into my mind then I try it it to see if it works or not..My Wing Chun


The mind is the only enemy.


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## wckf92 (Nov 6, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> Sifu Michael McIlwrath
> Nov,4 2021
> 
> I like to share how I feel about the martial art
> ...



So are you saying you intend to create a 4th form and add it to your curriculum? Will this creation be a new Fut Sao Wing Chun family? 

On another note: not sure what you mean by the elbow being constrained to your centerline. Wing Chun contains inside-to-outside and outside-to-inside theories for controlling the centerline.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 6, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> So are you saying you intend to create a 4th form and add it to your curriculum? Will this creation be a new Fut Sao Wing Chun family?
> 
> On another note: not sure what you mean by the elbow being constrained to your centerline. Wing Chun contains inside-to-outside and outside-to-inside theories for controlling the centerline.


For myself I don't need to create a 4th form  but to tech I will have to..I've simply have already integrated and internalized  it into everything I do so a form is only a formality or for teaching purposes. The elbow line moves in a linear fashion but my floating elbow moves in all 6 directions,  up, down ,left, right ,forward and backwards the elbow does not always stay close to the Centerline but I use it o.ly as a reference point not as something I have to follow..


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> did you progress the art further?


I agree that you can progress the WC art further.

You may be surprised that the WC Tang, Fu, Bong can be used in many different areas.

1. WC Tang Shou:






2, WC Fu Shou:






3, WC Bong Shou:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> For myself I don't need to create a 4th form  but to tech I will have to.


IMO, when you create a new form, you just want to record some information that doesn't exist in your other forms.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 7, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> What do you know about the southern Snake, Crane, and Dragon styles?  Not in years, details please, so I can help fill in the gaps for you.


I many martial art friends that know many different style am always training with then and sharing information as I feel this is part of your martial art education..


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 7, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> I many martial art friends that know many different style am always training with then and sharing information as I feel this is part of your martial art education..


The reason I ask is that Wing Chun students who have never been exposed to the southern Chinese frameworks that constitute it, often begin to discuss and craft their own new theories to fill in the blanks.  Next thing you know, they're writing all sorts of exploratory essays that tend to stray from the source material.  I question the need for further theorizing about something that's been theorized to death, rather than taking it to Chinatown and actually sparring like normal kung fu people, something Wing Chun students tend to shy away from, again wrapping themselves up in theory.

Consider for a moment that thousands of people over hundreds of years have already done the work for you, and it's all written down somewhere in a notebook, probably as unnoticeable as a footnote about Snake hands and Dragon's wings, and their relationship to Qi and Shen, lifeforce and spirit.  Those are two qualities I look to for legitimate Wing Chun, as well as any other style.  Those, and weapon skill. Have you learned any of the traditional Yongchaun weapons?


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 7, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> The reason I ask is that Wing Chun students who have never been exposed to the southern Chinese frameworks that constitute it, often begin to discuss and craft their own new theories to fill in the blanks.  Next thing you know, they're writing all sorts of exploratory essays that tend to stray from the source material.  I question the need for further theorizing about something that's been theorized to death, rather than taking it to Chinatown and actually sparring like normal kung fu people, something Wing Chun students tend to shy away from, again wrapping themselves up in theory.
> 
> Consider for a moment that thousands of people over hundreds of years have already done the work for you, and it's all written down somewhere in a notebook, probably as unnoticeable as a footnote about Snake hands and Dragon's wings, and their relationship to Qi and Shen, lifeforce and spirit.  Those are two qualities I look to for legitimate Wing Chun, as well as any other style.  Those, and weapon skill. Have you learned any of the traditional Yongchaun weapons?


I have crossed trained for many years in NYC Chinatown with many high level masters. like tai chi, mantis, dragon, Northern Shaolin, Wing Chun,Choy Le Fut, HUng Gar, and people who make up their own stuff, ,,Because experience is the best teacher..perhaps its all been done before but its up to you to experience first hand.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 7, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> The reason I ask is that Wing Chun students who have never been exposed to the southern Chinese frameworks that constitute it, often begin to discuss and craft their own new theories to fill in the blanks.  Next thing you know, they're writing all sorts of exploratory essays that tend to stray from the source material.  I question the need for further theorizing about something that's been theorized to death, rather than taking it to Chinatown and actually sparring like normal kung fu people, something Wing Chun students tend to shy away from, again wrapping themselves up in theory.
> 
> Consider for a moment that thousands of people over hundreds of years have already done the work for you, and it's all written down somewhere in a notebook, probably as unnoticeable as a footnote about Snake hands and Dragon's wings, and their relationship to Qi and Shen, lifeforce and spirit.  Those are two qualities I look to for legitimate Wing Chun, as well as any other style.  Those, and weapon skill. Have you learned any of the traditional Yongchaun weapons?


yes, ive learnt the pole and the knife.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> I have crossed trained for many years in NYC Chinatown with many high level masters. like tai chi, mantis, dragon, Northern Shaolin, Wing Chun,Choy Le Fut, HUng Gar,


Do you see any similarity between WC, white crane, and southern praying mantis?


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 7, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> yes, ive learnt the pole and the knife.


Sweet.  The 棍 is a great area to examine Wing Chun principles, especially biu ji.

There is a great pole drill in the southern family styles that incorporates both bridging and forearm conditioning.  I doubt I can find a video of it, but basically it combines snake and dragon mechanics into an agility and conditioning exercise for two people.  You can also do the  drill by yourself if you're creative enough.  I'll look for it.

If you know what I'm talking about, it combines siu num tao, biu ji, and chum kiu into one really beautiful 2-person drill.  With a weapon.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you see any similarity between WC, white crane, and southern praying mantis?


yes, they have  similar hand techniques and structures but they have their own differences as well.. they all have a centerline concept with short infighting, so does 7 star mantis as well. which is a northern style


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 7, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Sweet.  The 棍 is a great area to examine Wing Chun principles, especially biu ji.
> 
> There is a great pole drill in the southern family styles that incorporates both bridging and forearm conditioning.  I doubt I can find a video of it, but basically it combines snake and dragon mechanics into an agility and conditioning exercise for two people.  You can also do the  drill by yourself if you're creative enough.  I'll look for it.
> 
> If you know what I'm talking about, it combines siu num tao, biu ji, and chum kiu into one really beautiful 2-person drill.  With a weapon.


I like to see that


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 8, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> so does 7 star mantis as well. which is a northern style


Agree! The 7 star mantis "catch grasshopper" that both hands strike from the center of the chest also use the center line principle. It's circular move that a small circle followed by a large circle, and a large circle followed by a small circle non-stopped (similar to WC chain punches).


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! The 7 star mantis "catch grasshopper" that both hands strike from the center of the chest also use the center line principle. It's circular move that a small circle followed by a large circle, and a large circle followed by a small circle non-stopped (similar to WC chain punches).


I actually like the 7 star mantis a lot i met a sifu of this style and he taught me the Bun Bo which is their 1sr form. has a lot of good stuff in it'


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 8, 2021)

The XingYi system Pi Quan also uses the centerline principle. Both the uppercut and palm strike all come from the center of the chest.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 8, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> I like to see that


I can't find a video of it, so I made this picture that sums it up.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 8, 2021)

My entire take is that a person can progress a martial arts without actually using the techniques found in it. Once you do this, it will naturally progress and it will naturally have new things added to it.

The more you use something the better you get at it.  The better you understand it, and the more likely it will eventually advance with new approaches and new techniques.


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## Steve (Nov 9, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> I can't find a video of it, so I made this picture that sums it up.
> 
> View attachment 27552


Isn't that a percent sign?


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## Steve (Nov 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> My entire take is that a person can progress a martial arts without actually using the techniques found in it. Once you do this, it will naturally progress and it will naturally have new things added to it.
> 
> The more you use something the better you get at it.  The better you understand it, and the more likely it will eventually advance with new approaches and new techniques.


I see posts like this and think about the movie theater projector operator.  Boy, that was a skilled job... not only did you need to understand how to use the beasts that were used to project the movies (giant 70mm behemoths that even now will run you $25 to $30k).  You also had to work quickly to repair the machine, replace the bulbs, splice the film if things went haywire, and generally keep the rabble happy before they turned on you when things went awry.  This was a complex skillset that was important and thriving well into the 90s and early 2000s.  Shoot, I worked downtown just a few blocks away on Lenora in Seattle when Paul Allen renovated the old Cinerama theater, which was amazing.  First digital projector I'm aware of in the Seattle area, and the beginning of the end for the Projectionist, and that was in 1997, IIRC.

So, the relevant question is how, in 2022 (practically), can I become a skilled film projectionist?   And will I ever naturally progress in the skill set without having a venue in which to exercise my skills (much less have new things added to it)?

I do agree that the more you use something the better you get at it.  I just don't think we always agree on what "using something" actually looks like.  Sometimes, I feel like we're pretty close, but then other days, I feel like we're talking about somehow becoming an expert in an obsolete and impractical skill set, like the projectionist of old.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 9, 2021)

Steve said:


> Isn't that a percent sign?


From the air, sure.

I'm no good at drawing.  Imagine these two characters in any one of the mother stances.  The adduction version is particularly good.

Partners take turns trading tan sao to condition their da saam sing (3 stars) points and then reverse to grab the pole before it falls to the ground.

Done correctly the pole will appear to float in the air.  Done wrong, you drop the staff loudly, and your face gets all red because everyone knows you goofed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 9, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> So, isn't it time to progress your Wing Chun to the next level?


Can you category the WC system into many different principles? Those principles then can be mapped into many different techniques.

When people has learned a new form, I like to ask that person, "What new principles have you learned in your new form?"


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## geezer (Nov 12, 2021)

Steve said:


> I see posts like this and think about the movie theater projector operator.  Boy, that was a skilled job...  other days, I feel like we're talking about somehow becoming an expert in an obsolete and impractical skill set, like the projectionist of old.


This was a really thought provoking thread for me. In fact, I read it a couple of times.

I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.

And, I wonder what that says about me that I am attracted to such activities. I also am a good potter, have tried my hand at smithing, hema, archery ...even flint knapping. Talk about obsolete skills! And yet they have brought me much enjoyment.

Not sure if learning to run an old projector would do that ...for me, anyway. Might for others though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 12, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> I actually like the 7 star mantis a lot i met a sifu of this style and he taught me the Bun Bo which is their 1sr form. has a lot of good stuff in it'


What's your opinion about the praying mantis Gou Lou Cai Shou? Why WC doesn't use this technique?


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## drop bear (Nov 13, 2021)

geezer said:


> This was a really thought provoking thread for me. In fact, I read it a couple of times.
> 
> I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.
> 
> ...



Yeah. But you are still doing the actual skill. I assume if you want to be a black smith at some point you expect to make a horse shoe. 

Esoteric isn't the point.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 13, 2021)

geezer said:


> This was a really thought provoking thread for me. In fact, I read it a couple of times.
> 
> I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.
> 
> ...


From my own experience, I would disagree that TMA methods are obsolete skills. I do believe that they may not be well received by the modern, Western mindset so they may have a more limited appeal, compared to modern competition approaches.  

One of the first things I told my students was that our system does not look like what people raised on a steady diet of MMA expect a combat method to look like.  It is strange.  I can admit that from the get-go.  

But when you understand why we do the things we do, what those exercises are meant to develop, and then how we apply those skills, it becomes apparent that there is a sensical methodology in place.  And those skills that we develop are effective and absolutely relevant.  What matters is that we find a method that speaks to us, personally, never mind what others may think of it. 

By the way, I’ve also done a bit of flint knapping, pottery, archery, and love archaic weaponry.  I rebuild sword hilts and scabbards, by way of example.  Just sayin’.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 13, 2021)

geezer said:


> I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.


I look at Jow ga with the understanding that not everything in a form is meant for fighting.  Some things have a conditioning function be it mental or physical.  The difficulty with TMA is that we tend to lump it all together in a form vs training them separately and that causes confusion if teachers aren't consistently and accurately pointing out the which is which.   We saw a lot of this confusion in the Aikido threads.

If a fighting skill does become obsolete then it's good to know the old way for historical purposes but better to train the improved version for self-defense purposes.  Some things may be "obsolete" depending on where you live.  I'm not going to get a lot of staff fighting use in the use because of guns.  But that story may be different if I live in India (there appears to be a lot of stick fights there).


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## caped crusader (Nov 13, 2021)

@ the OP  what is your opinion of the Wing Tsun system from Leung ting?


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## geezer (Nov 13, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> @ the OP  what is your opinion of the Wing Tsun system from Leung ting?


Each of the traditional lineages and their off-shoot branches has strengths and weaknesses.

Within the "WT" branches (coming from Leung Ting) you see that too. Sifu Leung had legit skills within the confines of what WC/WT _is: a short bridge (close range) stand-up, striking art._ And in the early years (1980s) that I trained with LT, he was more generous about sharing his knowledge.

Later on, politics and money soured our relationship some, and my life situation changed. I married, started a family and career, so I couldn't really continue as before and left off training WT.

About 15 years later I gave it a second go and ended up training with my old si-dai who had reached "master" or "practition" rank in the interim and was running LT's organization in the US at the time. On the positive side, he had trained both directly both under GM LT here in the States and also for some years with the EWTO in Germany, including time directly with GM Keith Kernspect. On the negative side, shortly after I started training with this man, he broke with LT so both he and his group (including me) got "excommunicated". 

Now I'm kinda independent ...of everybody. I still travel about 1,000 miles to train with my si-dai about once a year, but he is rigidly traditional and authoritarian in his teaching, and I like to explore ideas and try different things. So we don't totally see eye to eye. I'm still happy to learn from him, but he's no longer so happy to share stuff with me since I'm independent and don't run a school branch for him anymore. Funny how history repeats itself, eh?

So what about WT? In my experience, LT was very good, and his _soft and flexible_ interpretation of the WC/WT system was fascinating and effective. I feel that it was among the best WC that I encountered. 

On the other hand, his claims that his WT is a totally "complete" art didn't hold water even back in the 80s. And now with over three decades of MMA as a "proving ground"...such claims are patently absurd. Certainly, WT has merits, but to be a complete system that could be applied successfully in open competition, of course you need a good grappling background as well as long range punching and kicking skills. For most young, athletic people who "want to fight" a good MMA gym would  get you to that goal faster ...if that's what you want. 

On the other hand, for an older guy who does TMA for recreation and ...possibly might use it for self-defense some day,  My WT and Escrima, plus the experience of having been a wrestler in my youth ...well that suits me fine.


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## caped crusader (Nov 13, 2021)

geezer said:


> Each of the traditional lineages and their off-shoot branches has strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> Within the "WT" branches (coming from Leung Ting) you see that too. Sifu Leung had legit skills within the confines of what WC/WT _is: a short bridge (close range) stand-up, striking art._ And in the early years (1980s) that I trained with LT, he was more generous about sharing his knowledge.
> 
> ...


Yes ...kernsprecht has moved into his "Blitz Defence"...honestly embarassing and most who trained here in Germany all left his Sekt. Money making. Some have adopted ground fighting into their WT. Mainly his Turkish students but all left the EWTO.
Suc as this guy..


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## drop bear (Nov 13, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Yes ...kernsprecht has moved into his "Blitz Defence"...honestly embarassing and most who trained here in Germany all left his Sekt. Money making. Some have adopted ground fighting into their WT. Mainly his Turkish students but all left the EWTO.
> Suc as this guy..



Yeah. But that also isn't a very good application of ground fighting. 

You can't just say you are doing it and that is the end of the discussion. You kind of have to do it right.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 13, 2021)

geezer said:


> Each of the traditional lineages and their off-shoot branches has strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> Within the "WT" branches (coming from Leung Ting) you see that too. Sifu Leung had legit skills within the confines of what WC/WT _is: a short bridge (close range) stand-up, striking art._ And in the early years (1980s) that I trained with LT, he was more generous about sharing his knowledge.
> 
> ...


You’ve got to define what is meant by “complete”.  I personally don’t believe a good and meaningful definition exists, without being linked to a specific context, which can be meaningless in other context.  I certainly do not agree that engagement in competition gives some kind of priority to the definition.


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## geezer (Nov 13, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But that also isn't a very good application of ground fighting.
> You can't just say you are doing it and that is the end of the discussion. You kind of have to do it right.


I'm not sure what I'm looking at with that approach to ground-fighting. Perhaps something adapted from Turkish wrestling? Definitely not jits. Seems to have very different methods and objectives. It would be nice to know.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 13, 2021)

geezer said:


> I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.



Are they Obsolete, or just trained improperly, meaning no longer trained as they were traditionally because so many no longer have the patients, in our fast food, drive though window, microwave, computerized society.

Example; train Xingyiquan like most do today, it is obsolete and likely ineffective, train like it is supposed to be, "traditionally" it is rather effective and quite nasty. Taijiquan, same thing, how many actually train the martial arts of it, or for that matter train the forms "traditionally"


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## geezer (Nov 13, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You’ve got to define what is meant by “complete”.  I personally don’t believe a good and meaningful definition exists, without being linked to a specific context, which can be meaningless in other context.  I certainly do not agree that engagement in competition gives some kind of priority to the definition.


True. "Complete" could mean a lot of things depending on context. It could mean that your style or system has _everything_ in it. That's not how Leung Ting used the term though. Wing Chun (and Wing Tsun) is selective. It is defined as much by it's relative simplicity as by it's complexities.

Then there is the old saying that all kung fu should encompass "ti da shuai na" or kicking, punching, throwing, and locking ...if it is complete. This is true up to a point with Wing Chun. It has _some_ techniques addressing of each of those categories ...enough to be a "complete" system in that sense, but you'll notice that _ground-fighting_ is not really addressed when you say "ti da shuai na". 

And then, "complete" could simply mean that your system may be limited, but still _has what is necessary_ to deal with whatever you will confront (again "ti da shuai na).

Interestingly, a lot of Chinese martial arts don't seem to include ground-fighting in their definition of what is "complete". Could be a cultural thing. One time I brought this up with my old sifu and he implied that such fighting was somehow "primitive" and "low class". Kinda like the way American men from the WWII generation thought of boxing as "the manly art of self-defense" ...like the way my old uncle John (now deceased) dismissed any fighting that had kicks or low blows as being cowardly and just _wrong_. 

I suppose if you grew up in the late 1800s and early 1900s in southern China like GM Yip Man, when the streets of the working-class areas of crowded cities like Fo'shan were likely filled with _filth and dung_, the thought of rolling on the ground was not the proper way to fight, especially for a gentleman.

Anybody have any info on this?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 13, 2021)

geezer said:


> Later on, politics and money soured our relationship some, and my life situation changed. I married, started a family and career, so I couldn't really continue as before and left off training WT.
> 
> About 15 years later I gave it a second go and ended up training with my old si-dai who had reached "master" or "practition" rank in the interim and was running LT's organization in the US at the time. On the positive side, he had trained both directly both under GM LT here in the States and also for some years with the EWTO in Germany, including time directly with GM Keith Kernspect. On the negative side, shortly after I started training with this man, he broke with LT so both he and his group (including me) got "excommunicated".
> 
> Now I'm kinda independent ...of everybody. I still travel about 1,000 miles to train with my si-dai about once a year, but he is rigidly traditional and authoritarian in his teaching, and I like to explore ideas and try different things. So we don't totally see eye to eye. I'm still happy to learn from him, but he's no longer so happy to share stuff with me since I'm independent and don't run a school branch for him anymore. Funny how history repeats itself, eh?


The real poison of TMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 13, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Yes ...kernsprecht has moved into his "Blitz Defence"...honestly embarassing and most who trained here in Germany all left his Sekt. Money making. Some have adopted ground fighting into their WT. Mainly his Turkish students but all left the EWTO.
> Suc as this guy..


The logic of 1:28 makes no sense to me.  Why would someone let that choke go for the purpose punching the person in the back of the head.



drop bear said:


> Yeah. But that also isn't a very good application of ground fighting.


Ground fighting isn't even my strength and a lot of that stuff had me scratching my head.  It was almost like someone decided to wrestle and decided to release the wrestling technique to do WC just so it can be identified as WC.  If that's what is going on then that's not a healthy thing for a system to be functional.  It would ultimately means that function is being ignored for the purpose of "claiming a technique"  



geezer said:


> I suppose if you grew up in the late 1800s and early 1900s in southern China like GM Yip Man, when the streets of the working-class areas of crowded cities like Fo'shan were likely filled with _filth and dung_, the thought of rolling on the ground was not the proper way to fight, especially for a gentleman.


ha ha ha.. There's nothing wrong with having cuts scrapes and bruised why rolling around in animal and human waste.  That bacteria in your wounds will make you stronger lol.  You make a good point about the context of street conditions.   Even today there are some streets that I would probably be more concern about me not being on the ground than the fight itself.






Just taking a look at some of these pictures make BJJ useless for me lol.  And you know without a doubt that all of that isn't just dirt and mud lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 13, 2021)

geezer said:


> I suppose if you grew up in the late 1800s and early 1900s in southern China like GM Yip Man, when the streets of the working-class areas of crowded cities like Fo'shan were likely filled with _filth and dung_, the thought of rolling on the ground was not the proper way to fight, especially for a gentleman.


My thought is that being on the ground was always seen as something bad both physically and culturally.  Those who were on the ground were often seen as undesirables, beggars, diseased, dead, or servants.  The act of kneeling before another man is seen as lowly.  Might I add that these streets look fairly clean.  It's what one does when they submit to another man.  Some say it's done out of respect for title, but I'm sure in most cases that's said to make the reality of it easier to deal with.



Not saying that these people or anyone on the ground are animals.  But even in the animal kingdom, animals will lower there body posture when submitting to an Alpha or a group of attacking animals.

Being on the ground is also the universal position for taking a beating by multiple attackers.  So with all these things to consider.  I don't think it was just the poo on the ground even thought that's still a good reason not to willingly go to the ground.  Antibiotics were invented in 1928 so I can see the concern for infection being on the "Another reason not to be on the ground," But the core reasoning is probably older than that.


----------



## Steve (Nov 13, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> From my own experience, I would disagree that TMA methods are obsolete skills. I do believe that they may not be well received by the modern, Western mindset so they may have a more limited appeal, compared to modern competition approaches.
> 
> One of the first things I told my students was that our system does not look like what people raised on a steady diet of MMA expect a combat method to look like.  It is strange.  I can admit that from the get-go.
> 
> ...


This is all super cool as long as you don’t tell folks they’re learning to fight or defend themselves.  Unless you do those things at least a little.


----------



## Steve (Nov 13, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Are they Obsolete, or just trained improperly, meaning no longer trained as they were traditionally because so many no longer have the patients, in our fast food, drive though window, microwave, computerized society.
> 
> Example; train Xingyiquan like most do today, it is obsolete and likely ineffective, train like it is supposed to be, "traditionally" it is rather effective and quite nasty. Taijiquan, same thing, how many actually train the martial arts of it, or for that matter train the forms "traditionally"


Sometimes it’s a function of need. Sometimes it’s a function of opportunity.  Sometimes it is just simply a lack of interest.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 14, 2021)

I just response to the ORIGINAL post #1:

This doesn’t limit to Wing Chung alone, there are a lot of moves in other styles that don’t make the best sense either like Monkey style scratching their head occasionally!!!

I am a Chinese and was living in Hong Kong till 1973 after Bruce Lee died. Kung Fu is very popular in Hong Kong, I talked to enough people with MA background. It's the pride. People glorified in copying the exact form, keeping up with the tradition that was invented hundreds of years ago. They don't want to change, that's the mentality in general. Center line, fighting with elbow squeeze together is a good example of self limitation imposing on themselves. The other part is the sticky hands, I just cannot see it's practical in real fight against a boxer or other MA that move around, in and out, side to side. It's good only if both party doing WC and follow the same self imposed limitations.

It was ok to blind follow in the older days. BUT now, it's a different world, people record the fight, sit back and analyze, find ways to break the puzzle and improve on it. Just like Football coach analyze the opposing team by watching their games, create the strategy to explore their weak point. If you insist on keeping the tradition, you'll be eaten alive in no time.

There’s nothing wrong learning from other style that works. Forget the stupid pride. Look at Bruce Lee combined the best of WC with boxing hands and TKD kicks and really dominated *at his time*. MA really followed that......Until UFC1 when Royce Gracie cleaned the clock of all the strikers. All or a sudden, the whole MA got turned up side down. They started to look for ways to break the new puzzle(BJJ) and they did. Look at Royce Gracie got creamed, destroyed by Matt Huges in the first round. BUT, then Huges got his clock cleaned within a few months. MA is a constant evolving thing now. You just watch and compare the UFC fights a few years back with the new ones, people fight differently already. You have to look forward, not looking back. Bruce Lee was great for his time, you think he can even last one minute in the Octagon even with no rules?

I don't like to use the word progressive, but I absolutely think every discipline or style needs to be humble and start learning instead of insisting their style is the best like in the older days. Spend more time in learning and improving instead of wasting time defending the pride.

In all fairness, I don't think WC and Chinese MA are like that alone, seems other MA have the same problem also. Only one that really doesn't have self imposed limitation I can think of is Muaythai in striking, they are very practical, doesn't necessary look good nor artistic. I wish I learn that instead of Tae Kwon Do. I already chose a school that really follow Bruce Lee style, no tradition katas, boxing hands and no deep stands. But Muaythai have elbow and knees that I missed.


JMHO


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## caped crusader (Nov 14, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> My thought is that being on the ground was always seen as something bad both physically and culturally.  Those who were on the ground were often seen as undesirables, beggars, diseased, dead, or servants.  The act of kneeling before another man is seen as lowly.  Might I add that these streets look fairly clean.  It's what one does when they submit to another man.  Some say it's done out of respect for title, but I'm sure in most cases that's said to make the reality of it easier to deal with.
> View attachment 27584
> Not saying that these people or anyone on the ground are animals.  But even in the animal kingdom, animals will lower there body posture when submitting to an Alpha or a group of attacking animals.
> 
> ...


A lot of nonsence to be honest. Kids are Wrestling all the time.
Sorry but your 2 posts are just nonsence. 
Bacteria in your mouth tramps on the ground or Beggers ! Made me laugh though.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 14, 2021)

geezer said:


> Then there is the old saying that all kung fu should encompass "ti da shuai na" or kicking, punching, throwing, and locking ...if it is complete. This is true up to a point with Wing Chun. It has _some_ techniques addressing of each of those categories ...enough to be a "complete" system in that sense, but you'll notice that _ground-fighting_ is not really addressed when you say "ti da shuai na".



This has never been said where I have trained.  It has apparently not been emphasized in my lineages.  We simply view it as a methodology that approaches combat in a certain way, and that is what we do. 


> And then, "complete" could simply mean that your system may be limited, but still _has what is necessary_ to deal with whatever you will confront (again "ti da shuai na).


This is more in line with how we/I have always viewed it.  Within your methodology you ought to have solutions for what you are likely to encounter.  That does not mean that you have every tool imaginable, that you will match your enemy’s methods and out- perform him in his own game.  It means that you will beat him, using your methodology. 

When people start making a list of what is necessary in order to be “complete”, it can very quickly get unrealistic.  Where do we draw the line?  Do we need to include massed cavalry?  Battle tank tactics?  Air assault?  Ballistic missile defense?  I’m giving extreme examples of course, but my point is, there is always something else in the martial arena that a fellow does not know.  I don’t think it is possible to objectively define “complete” and I don’t really worry about it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 14, 2021)

Steve said:


> Sometimes it’s a function of need. Sometimes it’s a function of opportunity.  Sometimes it is just simply a lack of interest.


sometimes its a lack of patients too...also can be a lack of properly trained teacher as well


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 14, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> also can be a lack of properly trained teacher as well


nah..it´s society.  there was hard guys in the 70s/80s/90s   but the whole climate has changed & not just the save the planet stuff ..LOL 
Teachers now are not like in my day. won´t bore people with details but most were old school. 
I even remember as a small kid we had a Headmaster Mr Bell who wore the black cloak & hat like in the pink floyd video. He canned your *** if you laughed saying grace before dinner. was simply another world.


----------



## Callen (Nov 14, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> also can be a lack of properly trained teacher as well





caped crusader said:


> nah..it´s society



Unfortunately, the Wing Chun community absolutely has an issue with poorly trained people teaching an incomplete understanding of the system.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 14, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Kids are Wrestling all the time.


I don't know about you, but when I was a kid, I wrestled on grass and dirt.  I didn't wrestle on street in the 1800's or 1900's that was covered with urine, human feces, mud, and horse manure. 

Streets in 1900's  London

"In the 19th century, London was the capital of the largest empire the world had ever known — and it was infamously filthy. It had choking, sooty fogs; the Thames River was thick with human sewage;* and the streets were covered with mud.*

*But according to Lee Jackson, author of Dirty Old London: The Victorian Fight Against Filth, mud was actually a euphemism. "It was essentially composed of horse dung," *he tells _Fresh Air_'s Sam Briger. "There were tens of thousands of working horses in London [with] inevitable consequences for the streets. And the Victorians never really found an effective way of removing that, unfortunately."

*In fact, by the 1890s, there were approximately 300,000 horses and 1,000 tons of dung a day in London*." - Source: 'Dirty Old London': A History Of The Victorians' Infamous Filth

During this time people were also throwing human waste onto the streets from pans and people would also use the bathroom in the streets.  Even in some villages and slums it's not uncommon to see people use the bathroom right there on the street in public.

This is the manila slums.  How many kids do you think wrestle in the street here?  How eager would you be to get on the ground for some BJJ?  Like I always say, context is everything.


----------



## geezer (Nov 14, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The logic of 1:28 makes no sense to me.  Why would someone let that choke go for the purpose punching the person in the back of the head?


....Um, ....maybe because you can't _double-stomp the groin _easily from that position?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 14, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The logic of 1:28 makes no sense to me.  Why would someone let that choke go for the purpose punching the person in the back of the head.


To prove that he is not only a grappler. He knows how to punch too.

It's cool to get someone in a head lock, you then use uppercut and overhand to knock him out. 

https://i.postimg.cc/ZKFq8CDq/clinch-uppercut.gif


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 14, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Yes ...kernsprecht has moved into his "Blitz Defence"...honestly embarassing and most who trained here in Germany all left his Sekt. Money making. Some have adopted ground fighting into their WT. Mainly his Turkish students but all left the EWTO.
> Suc as this guy..



If that's the "ground fighting" they adopted, they shouldn't have bothered. In this day and age, there's literally no excuse to make up stuff when you can simply go someplace and actually learn actual submission grappling and bring it back to your students.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> To prove that he is not only a grappler. He knows how to punch too.



Except punching someone in the back of the head when you have the RNC is pretty dumb. You're in the most dominant position possible, so why are we possibly giving up that position and the choke to punch some more? He literally created space for his opponent where there was none, giving his opponent space to escape and potentially counter.

Of course we're assuming he had a decent choke and body lock engaged in the first place. Spoiler alert; He didn't.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 14, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To prove that he is not only a grappler. He knows how to punch too.
> 
> It's cool to get someone in a head lock, you then use uppercut and overhand to knock him out.
> 
> https://i.postimg.cc/ZKFq8CDq/clinch-uppercut.gif


I'll take your word on it ha ha


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 14, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll take your word on it ha ha


You only use uppercut when your opponent escapes your head lock. The head lock is used to switch a striking game into a wrestling game. It should not be the other way around.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 14, 2021)

geezer said:


> True. "Complete" could mean a lot of things depending on context. It could mean that your style or system has _everything_ in it. That's not how Leung Ting used the term though. Wing Chun (and Wing Tsun) is selective. It is defined as much by it's relative simplicity as by it's complexities.
> 
> Then there is the old saying that all kung fu should encompass "ti da shuai na" or kicking, punching, throwing, and locking ...if it is complete. This is true up to a point with Wing Chun. It has _some_ techniques addressing of each of those categories ...enough to be a "complete" system in that sense, but you'll notice that _ground-fighting_ is not really addressed when you say "ti da shuai na".
> 
> ...



Interestingly, Jigoro Kano the founder of Judo didn't like ground fighting much either. He incorporated it into Judo because Mateamon Tanabe, a master of Fusen-Ryu JJ used it to defeat Judoka in exhibition matches. Supposedly Tanabe developed his style from gripping eels and watching snakes kill and swallow toads......

Anyway, when Kosen Judo started to take off at the Kodokan in the 1920s, Kano actively worked to limit newaza and really push the tachiwaza (throwing) side of Judo. Banning leg locks and limiting the amount of time you can fight on the ground were such examples. Ironically, this gave space for BJJ to carve out an identity for itself later in the century. With that said, I do agree with you that an aversion to ground fighting seemed to be a cultural issue in Asian countries.

Edit: Found a blog post about this;





						Mataemon Tanabe Kodokan Killer BJJ Origins - M3 Fight and Fitness
					

What are the origins of Jiu Jitsu? We are going to learn of the Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu practitioner know as Tanabe, the man who took out various Judo legends under Kano.



					m3fight.com


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## drop bear (Nov 15, 2021)

Callen said:


> Unfortunately, the Wing Chun community absolutely has an issue with poorly trained people teaching an incomplete understanding of the system.



The big issue there is there is no good way to tell. 

Or they use irrelevant methods like linage.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The big issue there is there is no good way to tell.
> 
> Or they use irrelevant methods like linage.


Problem is how can you tell good or bad? If you have someone that can tell you whether it's good or bad, you already found a good person to learn from!!!

I learned some WC, I can see there are different variations with different instructors. Just like the simple punch in the first kata set "Little Idea" or "Little thoughts". Some punches out on the centerline of the chest, some holding the fist a little towards the shoulder between centerline and shoulder. Of cause I think it's not good punching from the centerline, but that's just me.

I am just thinking, the way the stand and centerline stuffs, could it be because WC is invented by a woman. Woman tends to protect the chest. The older woman dress limit them from having a wide stand, thereby having the kind of narrow stands with knees close together. Meaning in another word, they are not applicable in the modern days and if man practice WC.

I personally like the step kick to the knee, it is popular in UFC fights and is effective. I also like the "nudging" with the knuckle of the small finger in punching. I practice typical boxing punches, but I add the "nudging" in the punch. It's not easy to coordinate, but when you time it right, you can hear it on the heavy bag and you can feel it's a hard punch. I absolutely don't care for the sticky hands, centerline and fighting with elbow close together. But again, it's just me.


----------



## Cynik75 (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> ... WC is invented by a woman.


Just a legend.


----------



## futsaowingchun (Nov 15, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> @ the OP  what is your opinion of the Wing Tsun system from Leung ting?


If your referring to me? Myself , I find it to much drill focused.. I don't practice that  many drills anymore..I use drills to fix a certain problem a student may have then when that problem is fixed I tell him not to practice it anymore


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> My entire take is that a person can progress a martial arts without actually using the techniques found in it. Once you do this, it will naturally progress and it will naturally have new things added to it.
> 
> The more you use something the better you get at it.  The better you understand it, and the more likely it will eventually advance with new approaches and new techniques.


I agree, I call this finding your self within level


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## caped crusader (Nov 15, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> If your referring to me? Myself , I find it to much drill focused.. I don't practice that  many drills anymore..I use drills to fix a certain problem a student may have then when that problem is fixed I tell him not to practice it anymore


so what is futsaowingcun? 

_Wing Chun is one of the most popular martial arts in the world. It was made famous by Bruce Lee and his master, Yip Man. The most practiced form of Wing Chun is the Hong Kong version, which is streamlined and compact. However, older systems survive in China and one of them is the obscure art known as Fut Sao (Buddha Hand) Wing Chun. Fut Sao Wing Chun was brought to America in 1961 by Grandmaster Henry Leung, (Hong Lei, Chi Man), who learned the whole system under Great Master Gao Jhi Fut Sao. The system was passed down in America to Master Leung's one disciple, Sifu James Cama. In this book Cama sets out, for the first time, the outline of the Fut Sao system of Wing Chun Kuen.This book is special because, for the first time ever, the Fut Sao Siu Lin Tao and its two-man set are revealed. The Hei Gung set and meditation visualization practice are also detailed. The gem of the art is its internal practices which are rarely seen in Wing Chun. Chapters included: forms training, weapons, training enhancement devices, sensitivity training and internal training._

Hmmmm......


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> so what is futsaowingcun?
> 
> _Wing Chun is one of the most popular martial arts in the world. It was made famous by Bruce Lee and his master, Yip Man. The most practiced form of Wing Chun is the Hong Kong version, which is streamlined and compact. However, older systems survive in China and one of them is the obscure art known as Fut Sao (Buddha Hand) Wing Chun. Fut Sao Wing Chun was brought to America in 1961 by Grandmaster Henry Leung, (Hong Lei, Chi Man), who learned the whole system under Great Master Gao Jhi Fut Sao. The system was passed down in America to Master Leung's one disciple, Sifu James Cama. In this book Cama sets out, for the first time, the outline of the Fut Sao system of Wing Chun Kuen.This book is special because, for the first time ever, the Fut Sao Siu Lin Tao and its two-man set are revealed. The Hei Gung set and meditation visualization practice are also detailed. The gem of the art is its internal practices which are rarely seen in Wing Chun. Chapters included: forms training, weapons, training enhancement devices, sensitivity training and internal training._
> 
> Hmmmm......



Not sure, but it looks like a lineage that does not come from Ip Man, and those do exist, just not as prolific as the Ip Man lineage schools. And those styles can look a bit different, example Pan Nam Style


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 15, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not sure, but it looks like a lineage that does not come from Ip Man, and those do exist, just not as prolific as the Ip Man lineage schools. And those styles can look a bit different, example Pan Nam Style


There is a lineage in Vietnam too. slightly different from Yip Man WC.
was just laughing when i read it´s the Buddha hands wing chun


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## caped crusader (Nov 15, 2021)

Think this might be the Vietnam Lineage.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Just a legend.


That's what everyone in Hong Kong said AND even have a documentary here on American History Channel called Ancient Assassins. This is the episode:

"Ancient Assassins" Kung Fu Nun (TV Episode 2016) - IMDb

Look online, there are alternate stories, but still be a woman called Yim Wing Chun.

Who Invented Wing Chun? (The Woman Who Created Wing Chun) - Combat Museum

Yim Wing Chun was the one I kept hearing in Hong Kong.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's what everyone in Hong Kong said AND even have a documentary here on American History Channel called Ancient Assassins. This is the episode:
> 
> "Ancient Assassins" Kung Fu Nun (TV Episode 2016) - IMDb
> 
> ...



Kung Fu styles always have the best stories, and I do enjoy their myriad of styles. I wish they were systematically more effective though.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Kung Fu styles always have the best stories, and I do enjoy their myriad of styles. I wish they were systematically more effective though.


You think there's a lot of "stories"? You have not live in Hong Kong yet!!! 😂


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You only use uppercut when your opponent escapes your head lock. The head lock is used to switch a striking game into a wrestling game. It should not be the other way around.


In that clip that you showed it look more like controlling the exit than a person escaping.


Alan0354 said:


> Problem is how can you tell good or bad? If you have someone that can tell you whether it's good or bad, you already found a good person to learn from!!!
> 
> I learned some WC, I can see there are different variations with different instructors. Just like the simple punch in the first kata set "Little Idea" or "Little thoughts". Some punches out on the centerline of the chest, some holding the fist a little towards the shoulder between centerline and shoulder. Of cause I think it's not good punching from the centerline, but that's just me.
> 
> ...


I think some people took things to literal.  When they say stand in a narrow stance they didn't mean to stay in a narrow stance.  My understanding of stances is that they are like gears on a bike. Each gear has a correct time and place to use them.  The rider switches in an out of the gears based on the terrain that the rider is riding on.  Fighting stances are like that as well. The goal isn't to stay in one, but to switch stances as needed 

I made a comment in a group of Sifus that I use the low stance to defend against grappling attempts.  One of the Sifu's called me out and said that if I just stand there in a low stance then it will fail and as of such he didn't believe my claim.  I was shock for 2 reason.
1. Why don't people understand that it's ok to move to one stance type and stance level as needed.  Grapplers lower their stance when they grapple.  Why would that concept be incorrect in Kung Fu "lower your stance."

2.  If someone goes for your legs, then move.  Using a low stance to defend against grappling doesn't mean I'm just standing there like a statue.  Kung Fu trains transitioning through stances yet for some reason many though that out the door and expect to defend against grappling by standing still.  

I think that in the effort to "Preserve history" many people have taken the extreme side of things to the point where it restricts a system so much that it's not practiced as it was originally intended.

If a person says they can defend a take down only using their stance. Then the next question should be.  Are you moving or just standing still.  Context is everything and a lot of context is lost in many TMA systems.  And as a result stories are made to fill in "gaps"


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

@Alan0354

When I here about the stories about WC being created by a woman.  One of the first things I took a look at was to see what the fashion was like back then.  None of the fashion back then fits with any of the stories I've heard about the narrow stance in WC.  Just basing it on what I saw most women wore pants.  Below is said to be women practicing WC.  Notice the stances.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> In that clip that you showed it look more like controlling the exit than a person escaping.
> 
> I think some people took things to literal.  *When they say stand in a narrow stance they didn't mean to stay in a narrow stance. * My understanding of stances is that they are like gears on a bike. Each gear has a correct time and place to use them.  The rider switches in an out of the gears based on the terrain that the rider is riding on.  Fighting stances are like that as well. The goal isn't to stay in one, but to switch stances as needed
> 
> ...


NO!!! They are very literal. This I know.

You train here, things must be very different. NO, they glorify EXACT.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> @Alan0354
> 
> When I here about the stories about WC being created by a woman.  One of the first things I took a look at was to see what the fashion was like back then.  None of the fashion back then fits with any of the stories I've heard about the narrow stance in WC.  Just basing it on what I saw most women wore pants.  Below is said to be women practicing WC.  Notice the stances.
> 
> View attachment 27588


Not in the more recent days. I did learn some WC. You sure it's WC? I can read the Chinese words, it did NOT say is WC.

I don't know what this pictures was from, I saw at least 5 schools in HK and here, the basic stance is NOT like this. The most basic form is the stance from the first kata "Little thoughts" that spread the foot, sit down so the knee close to each other. Then turn 45deg and become the most basic stand.

This is how the stance starts:





You know Kung Fu, you should know the worst stand you can have is in the picture, straight legs and spread far apart. For wide stance, you need to bend the knee a little to get the bounce, OR standing up straight with feet close together like boxing so you can easily hop around. I have no idea where the picture comes from, but that's not a good stand no matter what style you are talking.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You think there's a lot of "stories"? You have not live in Hong Kong yet!!! 😂



I think an important question is the question of kung fu styles being willing to adapt to modern fighting, or remain doggedly rigid in their traditional techniques and methodology.

We see growth and general improvement in martial arts systems that choose to adapt and evolve, so it is strange to see systems like Wing Chun and other CMAs outright refuse to evolve, and instead stick to ancient/archaic fighting concepts.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> NO!!! They are very literal. This I know.
> 
> You train here, things must be very different. NO, they glorify EXACT.


That's where I think they go wrong.  There has to be some flexibility, things cannot be exact as fighting is fluid and will often deny us of that perfection that we have in our stances when there's no conflict. 



Alan0354 said:


> I saw at least 5 schools in HK and here, the basic stance is NOT like this.


I've seen Wing Chun schools take this stance before.  Not all of them but there are some out there that have a wider stance which is more like a natural fighting stance.  It's not the restricted stance that you are used to seeing.



Alan0354 said:


> You know Kung Fu, you should know the worst stand you can have is in the picture, straight legs and spread far apart.



Professional boxing " fairly straight legs legs spread far apart."















MMA wide stance


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## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's where I think they go wrong.  There has to be some flexibility, things cannot be exact as fighting is fluid and will often deny us of that perfection that we have in our stances when there's no conflict.
> 
> 
> I've seen Wing Chun schools take this stance before.  Not all of them but there are some out there that have a wider stance which is more like a natural fighting stance.  It's not the restricted stance that you are used to seeing.
> ...


You missed my point, you use wide stance, you bend your knees ready to explode. If you have wide stand with straight knee, you are dead.

Also remember, these pictures are snap shots of a split seconds when the knee is straight. I don't think the picture of the girls you show is dynamic, they are practicing, not like these in the middle of the fight.

I still not convince that old picture is WC, like I said, I read some Chinese, it did not say WC, it's some other names I don't recognize. I know how to write WC in Chinese.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You know Kung Fu, you should know the worst stand you can have is in the picture, straight legs and spread far apart. For wide stance, you need to bend the knee a little to get the bounce,


Here's my understanding of the bow stance.  In practice and training the leg extends and becomes straight as kung fu drives power by pushing into the punch.  In order to get maximum power, you want to straighten that back leg so that the leg is pushing all the way through.

In application the back leg is not straight like in training.  It doesn't go completely straight like in training It's straight -ish for a short period of time. Literally less than a second.  By the time your punch lands your fist and your leg are returning back to position.  It's not the long extended straight leg that you see in training but it does get fairly straight sometimes, just not completely straight.

Here is a good example of what I'm talking about. If you drive punching power by pushing into your punch then this is about as straight as it's going to get before the stance transitions into something else.  This is similar to the punch that I first showed you when you first joined here.







Boxer's and MMA fighters sometime are too front heavy because of how they drive power. When that happens their rear foot comes off the ground.  The risk of that rear foot coming up is that you are now standing on one leg.  You can get away with it in boxing because there is no kicking.  But if kicking is involved then standing on that front let with your right leg off the ground can be dangerous. 

Some fighter do it because they are transitioning in footwork placement, sort of sneaking a step while punching.  Other are literally falling forward and look as such as you see them stumble out of their punch.



Alan0354 said:


> OR standing up straight with feet close together like boxing so you can easily hop around.


Boxer typically take the wider stance, it's more stable for launching your hardest punches.  High stances are more mobile but they are also less stable.  If you take a high stance against a grappler (bjj, judo, or any style of wrestling), then you put yourself at a much greater risk of being put on the ground.  Standing tall against them would almost be like taking the newbie student down at the gym.  Stance high will vary depending on what you are facing.   I start off a mid level stance because at that point it's faster for me to raise or lower my stance as needed.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I think an important question is the question of kung fu styles being willing to adapt to modern fighting, or remain doggedly rigid in their traditional techniques and methodology.
> 
> We see growth and general improvement in martial arts systems that choose to adapt and evolve, so it is strange to see systems like Wing Chun and other CMAs outright refuse to evolve, and instead stick to ancient/archaic fighting concepts.


Ha ha, you said it. I don't want to say it out loud and I am NOT offended even I am Chinese!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You missed my point, you use wide stance, you bend your knees ready to explode. If you have wide stand with straight knee, you are dead.


Depends on what you are doing.  If you are just standing there then yes, don't lock your knees straight. Keep them slightly bent.



Alan0354 said:


> Also remember, these pictures are snap shots of a split seconds when the knee is straight.


Yes, because that how it is in application.  When you train bow stance you are allowed to sit in the bow stance longer for training purposes.  But a bow stance in application is not the same.  It's over as soon as your punch is over.  

Keep in mind that Bow stance is used for multiple reasons. I don't only have to use it punching.  I can use it in wrestling or use it for take downs.  Such as the one below. The rule is always the same stay in a stance only as long as needed and transition from stance to stance.  The throw below only works if that leg is straight.  If it's not straight then he won't have the structure that's needed to twist the guy over.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> kung fu styles being willing to adapt to modern fighting, or remain doggedly rigid in their traditional techniques and methodology.


Which method is better?

You throw a punch. Your opponent blocks it.

Modern fighting: You pull you punch back and punch with another hand.

CMA fighting: You use your punching arm to pull your opponent's blocking arm, establish a clinch. You then use that clinch to take your opponent down.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I still not convince that old picture is WC, like I said, I read some Chinese, it did not say WC, it's some other names I don't recognize. I know how to write WC in Chinese.


That's why I said "if the picture is accurate"  But this guy trains WC and he uses a wide stance at @27:22 that is similar to what is shown in the WC picture I posted.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which method is better?
> 
> You throw a punch. Your opponent blocks it.


In Jow Ga we don't care if our opponent blocks some of our punches.  As a matter of fact we count on it for our large wheel punches.  We train to hit through the guard.  With other punches we may use that same striking motion to set up a grappling opportunity or we use to strike, then grab.

As for as the better method.  I would say the one that works for the timing and opportunity. Both methods can be fruitful.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> CMA fighting: You use your punching arm to pull your opponent's blocking arm, establish a clinch. You then use this clinch to take your opponent down.


You can do this or strike then clinch.  Mix it up and the person won't know what is coming next.  All they know is the pull, but won't know what follows next.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You can do this or strike then clinch.  Mix it up and the person won't know what is coming next.  All they know is the pull, but won't know what follows next.


I only ask question, and I don't draw conclusion. 

Does the modern fight have the concept of

punch -> pull -> clinch?

If the modern fight doesn't have it, why do I want to go backward?


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## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's why I said "if the picture is accurate"  But this guy trains WC and he uses a wide stance at @27:22 that is similar to what is shown in the WC picture I posted.


That's is in transition and with bent knee. The old picture show BOTH girls have straight knee and wide stands. And the way the picture shown, someone was teaching them and it's not exactly in motion. Even the other two have knees that are quite straight. I don't think those are WC. 

I can recognize this video you showed is WC. I don't know how to explain any better, one can tell easily whether it's WC or not.


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## Hanzou (Nov 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which method is better?
> 
> You throw a punch. Your opponent blocks it.
> 
> ...



At this point it's rather clear which method is better. While you're attempting to grab someone's blocking arm, you're getting tagged in the face with jabs and straight punches. You take your opponent down, but you don't know ground fighting, so they sweep you and choke you out rather quickly.

Seriously, we're thirty years into this now, there's really no point restating the obvious. The goal now should be getting the traditional CMAs caught up.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Seriously, we're thirty years into this now, there's really no point restating the obvious. The goal now should be getting the traditional CMAs caught up.


The true striking art and wrestling art integration (such as punch -> pull -> clinch) already existed in TMA. The modern fight doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I still not convince that old picture is WC, like I said, I read some Chinese, it did not say WC, it's some other names I don't recognize. I know how to write WC in Chinese.


The source for the Wing chun picture that I posted is here.
Earliest Published Photograph and References to Wing Chun

You can come to your own conclusions about this as I have no way to verify if that WC picture is correct or not.  

For me the picture is irrelevant to the fact that there are some people who train WC with a wider chance. I've seen people who do.  I'll leave it up to the WC community to decide if those people are doing Wing Chun or not.  I'm a Jow Ga practitioner and have no interest in spending hours and days trying to verify that photo or the information.

The problem with stances is that too many people understand stances like this guy at @53.  If that's the level of understanding of a stance that a person has not grasp the functions of stances and how to apply them.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The source for the Wing chun picture that I posted is here.
> Earliest Published Photograph and References to Wing Chun
> 
> You can come to your own conclusions about this as I have no way to verify if that WC picture is correct or not.
> ...


Whatever, I am not even interested in their stance, just saying from my experience. Only thing I follow WC is the "nudging" fist and the step kick. They can keep the rest. the little I learn is more than I care to learn already.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Whatever, I am not even interested in their stance, just saying from my experience. Only thing I follow WC is the "nudging" fist and the step kick. They can keep the rest. the little I learn is more than I care to learn already.


This is why the side kick is not popular in the WC system. Without the low stance training (such as the Pu-Bu), the groin area won't be open enough for side kick.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The true striking art and wrestling art integration (such as punch -> pull -> clinch) already existed in TMA. The modern fight doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.



Where's the ground fighting in TMA?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Where's the ground fighting in TMA?


- The modern fight (such as ground fight) can help the traditional fight.
- The traditional fight (such as punch -> pull -> clinch) can help the modern fight.

It's 2 ways street and not just 1 way street.


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## Hanzou (Nov 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - The modern fight (such as ground fight) can help the traditional fight.
> - The traditional fight (such as punch -> pull -> clinch) can help the modern fight.
> 
> It's 2 ways street and not just 1 way street.



The traditional fighting method can help the modern fight how exactly? If I were looking to pick up a striking style to augment my BJJ training, I wouldn't go to CMA, I would go to boxing, kickboxing (American or Japanese) or Muay Thai. The clinching in boxing and MT directly benefit BJJ.

The kata, archaic stances, folklore, and old methodologies found in traditional martial arts do not. It's simply far too much baggage.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 16, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If you have wide stand with straight knee, you are dead.


In the picture the front knee (the one closest to their opponent) is bent.  Both legs aren't straight.  Maybe this will help I lighten the color so that there is more contrast between the pants and the back ground.
Counting from left to right 1, 2, 3, 4,  
1 = front leg knee is bent
2 = front leg knee is slightly bent.  Because of the system that I train in.  Slightly bent = straight. but there is a bend in it.  Just not a good one.
3 = front leg knee is bent
4 = front leg knee is bent

You can verify by looking at how the pant legs are shaped. The rear pants legs form a linear shape . The front pants legs form a curved shapes which indicates that the knee is bent.


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## caped crusader (Nov 16, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You think there's a lot of "stories"? You have not live in Hong Kong yet!!! 😂


I still laugh at the old 70s , 80s  Hong Kong kung fu films. Awooooo.... flying kick beating 15 men.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I only ask question, and I don't draw conclusion.
> 
> Does the modern fight have the concept of
> 
> ...


Being how active MMA is, I'm going to say yes. 

It may not look like how your clip shows, but I have the seen other systems use the same concept.  I don't think it's an unknown concept in modern fighting.  There are many ways to use the punch to enter into a clinch or arm control.  

How the entry is done depends on what the person wants to do after the entry.


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## caped crusader (Nov 16, 2021)

talking of WC. I saw a good documentary today about punching power. It was Karate vs Boxing.  It showed that the Karate punch although slower to execute (in most cases) than a boxer using a shorter range , it was more powerful(more range, thus more momentum..power). 
Of course i think it depends on the boxer, weight...etc & Karate uses shorter punches too. 
WC,WT,VT.... use chain or arrow punches and use speed.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 16, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> I still laugh at the old 70s , 80s  Hong Kong kung fu films. Awooooo.... flying kick beating 15 men.


I did a flying jump kick in a real fight in the 6th grade in an actual fight.  I was disappointed in the effectiveness.  At 12, I didn't understand the simple reality that there is nothing to root you while in the air.  If the attacker comes in with more force than my kick comes in, then I literally get jammed in the Air.  That was the day I stopped doing that type of kick.

It was the same day that I liked Karate a little less


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## caped crusader (Nov 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I did a flying jump kick in a real fight in the 6th grade in an actual fight.  I was disappointed in the effectiveness.  At 12, I didn't understand the simple reality that there is nothing to root you while in the air.  If the attacker comes in with more force than my kick comes in, then I literally get jammed in the Air.  That was the day I stopped doing that type of kick.
> 
> It was the same day that I liked Karate a little less


i did try wado ryu for a while as i liked the mix in there of shindo yoshin ryu ju jitsu. Yeah all that hollywood stuff is just rubbish for street fighting. pure fantasy  
I think karate is ok but most have moved on to mixed systems.


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## caped crusader (Nov 16, 2021)

I did read somewhere that all these flying kicks were used in ancient times to kick cavalry horse riders off their Horse?  might be a load of crap.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> In the picture the front knee (the one closest to their opponent) is bent.  Both legs aren't straight.  Maybe this will help I lighten the color so that there is more contrast between the pants and the back ground.
> Counting from left to right 1, 2, 3, 4,
> 1 = front leg knee is bent
> 2 = front leg knee is slightly bent.  Because of the system that I train in.  Slightly bent = straight. but there is a bend in it.  Just not a good one.
> ...


My point is they don't look like the other pictures you showed in quick transition, these are more teaching which is slower. Such wide stand even with slight knee bend is not mobile.

More importantly, I show you video on how WC stance is and how it started by flipping the foot. These are NOT WC stance. Go look for more videos, those all agree with what I said.

More importantly, I really don't want to talk about this anymore, whatever. It's already much more than I care to look into WC. I learn some before, it's more than I even care to know.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 16, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> talking of WC. I saw a good documentary today about punching power. It was Karate vs Boxing.  It showed that the Karate punch although slower to execute (in most cases) than a boxer using a shorter range , it was more powerful(more range, thus more momentum..power).
> Of course i think it depends on the boxer, weight...etc & Karate uses shorter punches too.
> WC,WT,VT.... use chain or arrow punches and use speed.


I think boxing jab and cross can punch very hard. It's NOT easy to do, it takes a long time to have it time right to coordinate the heel, feet, waist and shoulder and arms to focus all the power at one point. Took at least months of practice to get there AND you can lose it if you stop practice for a while. When it is right in punching the HARD heavy bag, you know, the sound will tell you and how much it penetrates in will tell. You cannot judge with those soft long bags that draped on the floor. You need a free hanging bag. You do it right, the bag will hardly move, the force of the punch will penetrate into the bag and the sound is very echoy.

Funny, I find punching and front kick all look very easy, but to be GOOD at it takes a long time.

Boxing punch is the fastest.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> there is nothing to root you while in the air.


The purpose of the jump kick (flying kick) is to cover distance. In stead of doing step in and kick as 2 steps process, you do it as 1 step process.

It's similar to the hop in punch. When you punch, your back foot may be off the ground.

https://i.postimg.cc/zvT5QsX5/Adam-cross.gif


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> talking of WC. I saw a good documentary today about punching power.


In order to do chain punches, you have to pull your punch back fast. When you do that, your punching power will be less than the punch that you sent your fist all the way in.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's where I think they go wrong.  There has to be some flexibility, things cannot be exact as fighting is fluid and will often deny us of that perfection that we have in our stances when there's no conflict.
> 
> 
> I've seen Wing Chun schools take this stance before.  Not all of them but there are some out there that have a wider stance which is more like a natural fighting stance.  It's not the restricted stance that you are used to seeing.
> ...


I think I come about explaining the wrong way how I know the old picture is in very slow motion. The pictures here is very high speed and the straight leg is only a split second in the middle of the motion when they extend the leg.

I was a professional photographer for years doing wedding and products earning money. I really know the technical side of photography.

The pictures of the UFC fights you show HAD to be taken with very high shutter speed. Even with flash, the shutter speed has to be at least 1/2000 or even higher which is not hard to get with today's professional cameras. BUT it is not that easy to get anything over 1/2000 50 years ago. Also, in order to use flash, there is a big limitation on the shutter speed when using flash( we call it Flash SYNC speed). Even today, 1/250 sec flash sync speed is very good already. With slower shutter speed, those UFC picture will look like a blur with long trail. Even with flash, you will see a long tail of the image.

Now you look at the old picture of the girls. The image is very clear( but grainy). Meaning the speed is within the limit of the camera. Now, those pictures must be like over 100 years old. There is no way those cameras had high shutter speed. I don't know the history, but I'd be damn if they can get over 1/60sec. If you take a picture of moving object with 1/60, it's just going to be a blur. The fact the picture is clear AUTOMATICALLY tells me the movement must be slow. Meaning they intended to have wide stand and very little to no bending knees.

Technology let me make my conclusion. This is science now. It is so automatic for me that it just is. I have to stop and think of it to come back to explain.



EDIT:

Also film technology ( now digital CCD) has gone through quantum leaps. Those pictures of UFC got to be taken with film ( or CCD) equivalent to at least ISO800 film which is very high speed film so it's a lot more sensitive to light, you can use very high shutter speed.  Even 50 years ago, people had to use ISO100(ASA100) or slower to get nice picture without the grains. They had to use slower shutter speed to get enough light.

Imagine 100 years ago when they took those picture of the girls. Those film must be very slow like ASA25. So the shutter speed had to be really slow to take those picture. the fact there is no ghost tail can be conclusively be their motion is very slow.

Technology was not there to take any picture with fast movement at that time. Period. I won't even be surprised if they actually "post" to take the picture......that is make them looked like in action but actually they were all standing still to take the picture.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think boxing jab and cross can punch very hard. It's NOT easy to do, *it takes a long time* to have it time right to coordinate the heel, feet, waist and shoulder and arms to focus all the power at one point.


I don't like the idea that if you do it for a long time, you will have it. I like the idea that if you do this and that, you will have.

As far as the power generation, I like to have a set of drills to train it.

- What are those drills?
- Why do those drill work?
- How to train those drills?

The what, why, and how are important. IMO, just to do it for a long time is too abstract and not good enough.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't like the idea that if you do it for a long time, you will have it. I like the idea that if you do this and that, you will have.
> 
> As far as the power generation, I like to have a set of drills to train it.
> 
> ...


You have to know what you want to do, then practice until you can do it. It's NOT easy. idea is simple, you turn your foot with back foot on the heel, waist and shoulder turn and the punch go out and all achieve the optimal speed at the point of focus.

The idea is simple, but actually make the body sync up is hard. You just keep doing it until you get it.

I don't like to talk to analyze every little bit, you have the idea, practice until you get it. LESS IS MORE, the simpler the better. Like when you post the two pictures with the person's back straight or at 15 deg, to me it's not even important. You practice, your body limitation will guide you to the best position. I do NOT want to be like those typical CMA nit-picking on little things and MISS the moon.

I truly believe if you know the goal( how to sync the body parts), you find your best way to achieve it, it might be good for you, BUT not good for someone else. What works for you doesn't mean it is right for someone else. We have different body. There is no one correct way. Look at CMA, they pride on so precise, there's only one correct way, where are they now in the real fighting world.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The purpose of the jump kick (flying kick) is to cover distance. In stead of doing step in and kick as 2 steps process, you do it as 1 step process.
> 
> It's similar to the hop in punch. When you punch, your back foot may be off the ground.
> 
> https://i.postimg.cc/zvT5QsX5/Adam-cross.gif


This is the kick I'm talking about .  This is the kick that I did in the fight.  But because He was running towards me an because I didn't understand timing at the age of 12.  It forced me to kick sooner than what I should have and it jammed my kick.  When people kick in doors they  do not do running jump kicks like I did. 

The kick landed on his sternum upper stomach.  He was really mad after being kicked like that.   I think of it like this.  When I want to kick in a door, I won't be doing this kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the kick I'm talking about .


If you use the flying side kick to kick your opponent's leading knee joint from a 45 degree downward angle, it's a good "entering strategy".

This move was one of my senior SC brother David C. K. Lin's favor entering strategies. When his whole body weight tries to land on my knee joint, it puts me in defense mode right at that moment. I will have no option but to move away. This will give him a "safe entry".


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 16, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Like when you post the two pictures with the person's back straight or at 15 deg, to me it's not even important. You practice, your body limitation will guide you to the best position. I do NOT want to be like those typical CMA nit-picking on little things and MISS the moon.


Those small things are important.  It's not only CMA that does it.  Other people non TMA systems do it as well.   Getting the timing or angle wrong can lead to major issues.  For example.  Cutting a 45 degree angle is king.  Make that angle too small or too large and you will either run into your opponent's fist or you'll be to far out to strike.  While it doesn't have to be a perfect 45 degree angle, it has to be within acceptable functional range


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> those typical CMA nit-picking on little things and MISS the moon.


Many techniques only work when small requirement is met.

- You wrist lock work when you raise your elbow joint.
- Your head lock work when your opponent's head is on your chest, and you elbow point down to the ground.
- Your single leg works the best when your back foot line up with both of your opponent's feet.
- A throw works when your head is moving away from your opponent.
- A punch works if your body can be unified as one single unit.
- ...

This is why to have a MA teacher is important. Without an instructor, it's difficult (if not impossible) to figure out all these kind of detail.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you use the flying side kick to kick your opponent's leading knee joint from a 45 degree downward angle, you can end fight right there.


I gave it my best at the age of 12.  Me and my karate.   I still have my yellow belt from back then lol


Alan0354 said:


> Imagine 100 years ago when they took those picture of the girls. Those film must be very slow like ASA25. So the shutter speed had to be really slow to take those picture. the fact there is no ghost tail can be conclusively be their motion is very slow.


They posed for that picture they weren't moving.  If that photographer asked you to show your cane striking you would have to pose as if you were striking and then hold that pose long enough for the picture to be captured.


Edit:



I have a camera like this.  There's no way this thing will capture motion it barely captures light lol.  You almost have the the sunniest day just to see the image inside of the camera.  It's like a reflection of what's in front of you.  But it requires a lot of light.  Which is probably why we don't see many old pictures of rainy days.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 16, 2021)

Guys, I am not interested in what angle, and all that precise stuffs. Opponents are NOT standing still for you to find the best angle and all. I leave these to you guys to debate amount yourselves.

I believe in knowing the principle, then you find your way to achieve that. It's NOT that complicated, don't make it mysterious like the CMA want you to believe.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I believe in knowing the principle, then you find your way to achieve that.


Before I start to write a paper, I want to study already published papers. I want to stand on top of a giant shoulder. I don't want to stand on the flat ground.

Even the simple principle such as "punch -> pull -> clinch", I can find it in CMA. I don't have to reinvent the wheel.


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## APL76 (Nov 17, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Just a legend.


I think the Man Dow section of the knife form is further evidence that it was developed by and for women


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## Alan0354 (Nov 17, 2021)

APL76 said:


> I think the Man Dow section of the knife form is further evidence that it was developed by and for women


Just google and read, plenty of articles, tv shows and all. It is very well known.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 17, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I did a flying jump kick in a real fight in the 6th grade in an actual fight. I was disappointed in the effectiveness.


Flying kicks (covering distance and height) are one thing, quick jump kicks are another.  I am not a fan of flying kicks (although great fun to do) even though I practiced them for a few years, jumping over hurdles a few feet in front of the heavy bag. If the opponent is so far away you need to fly to him, he's too far to present a threat.

 They are not practical IMO in a fight:  There is telegraphing, they are slow and comparatively easy to evade, impact power not any greater (as you noted), and can leave you open to being dumped.  All in all, liabilities far outweigh advantages. As far as I know, they do not exist in traditional Okinawan kata or kihon.

Jumping kicks are another story.  I think the goal here is not to go for distance or height, but to execute 2 kicks (perhaps fake the first) in quick succession, saving time by not getting the first foot on the ground before doing the second kick.

This jumping double kick is found in Okinawan kata, and, like most kicks in kata, you have grabbed the opponent's wrist/arm and are holding him during the kick.  _So this is proof the goal is not distance or extra height as the opponent is only an arm and a half length distance away_.  By holding on to him, many of the disadvantages of flying kicks are negated.  Even so, it is a kick I'd rarely use in an actual fight.  Sport karate sparring is, as always, a different story.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the kick I'm talking about .  This is the kick that I did in the fight.  But because He was running towards me an because I didn't understand timing at the age of 12.  It forced me to kick sooner than what I should have and it jammed my kick.  When people kick in doors they  do not do running jump kicks like I did.
> 
> The kick landed on his sternum upper stomach.  He was really mad after being kicked like that.   I think of it like this.  When I want to kick in a door, I won't be doing this kick.
> View attachment 27604



A surprising amount of people pull off flying kicks in street fights. 

I just think we have a very biased perception on them. So we discount them.

It is one of those circumstances where the training in the dojo doesn't reflect the dynamics of the street. So you are rarely training in a situation where you are engaging in some sort of running battle.

But street fights. Especially big ones. This can absolutely be the case. And then flying kicks become higher percentage. 

But otherwise people legitimately pull this move off.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A surprising amount of people pull off flying kicks in street fights.


Really?  I'm not talking about movie stuntmen in kung fu movies with bodies flying around all over the place.


drop bear said:


> It is one of those circumstances where the training in the dojo doesn't reflect the dynamics of the street.


So, you're *for* practicing flying kicks in the dojo as they reflect street fight dynamics against a competent opponent?

Why are flying kicks (not just a jumping knee) not common in MMA?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Really?  I'm not talking about movie stuntmen in kung fu movies with bodies flying around all over the place.


I'm pretty sure he isn't either. A flying kick, even if blocked, requires total commitment. And even if blocked, it stands a reasonable chance of disrupting the targets balance and defense, allowing for a follow up. 


isshinryuronin said:


> So, you're *for* practicing flying kicks in the dojo as they reflect street fight dynamics against a competent opponent?


Sure. It's not your go-to move, but it's worth putting in some practice time, after you've gotten the basics.


isshinryuronin said:


> Why are flying kicks (not just a jumping knee) not common in MMA?


Well, you know, a flying kick requires a fair bit of distance. A few steps at the very least. Which is not often the case in most MMA fights.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Really?  I'm not talking about movie stuntmen in kung fu movies with bodies flying around all over the place.
> 
> So, you're *for* practicing flying kicks in the dojo as they reflect street fight dynamics against a competent opponent?
> 
> Why are flying kicks (not just a jumping knee) not common in MMA?



I did a whole thread on it back in the day.






						flying kicks for the streets.
					

Your opponent's 45 degree downward flying side kick (with all his body weight behind it), aiming at your leading leg knee joint can be the most scary entering strategy that your opponent applies on you. Just to think that a 200 lb of weight is going to drop on your knee joint, it will put you in...



					www.martialtalk.com
				




And probably found about 8 to 10 examples eventually. Which just seems a lot for a move that shouldn't work.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 18, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> They are not practical IMO in a fight: There is telegraphing, they are slow and comparatively easy to evade, impact power not any greater (as you noted), and can leave you open to being dumped. All in all, liabilities far outweigh advantages.


For those who think flying kicks are practical in a fight against a _competent_ opponent, what about all these drawbacks that perhaps should be addressed? 

The video of the Brazilian cop's flying kick is not representative (though very cool).  The target was in the process of just getting off a bike and so not competent. Also, the cop was not in a fight, but chasing/apprehending him - a unique scenario.  Most of us do not chase down someone in order to attack. This is not a self defense scenario.

Not saying there is never a use for a flying kick (not jumping/skipping) but it would be for a unique situation.  Again, I listed a number of disadvantages that I think outweigh this move being used in most street fight scenarios.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> For those who think flying kicks are practical in a fight against a _competent_ opponent, what about all these drawbacks that perhaps should be addressed?


This is such a common phenomenon that I feel like it should have a name.
Person A says "there are times you can make this work".
Person B then goes on and on ad infinitum about how it won't work in every situation. Even though person A already said that.
Other than "strawman argument", I can't think of a term that fits.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, you know, a flying kick requires a fair bit of distance. A few steps at the very least. Which is not often the case in most MMA fights.


Didn't take long to find one in competition.  






And one from the UFC in particular.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> For those who think flying kicks are practical in a fight against a _competent_ opponent, what about all these drawbacks that perhaps should be addressed?
> 
> The video of the Brazilian cop's flying kick is not representative (though very cool).  The target was in the process of just getting off a bike and so not competent. Also, the cop was not in a fight, but chasing/apprehending him - a unique scenario.  Most of us do not chase down someone in order to attack. This is not a self defense scenario.
> 
> Not saying there is never a use for a flying kick (not jumping/skipping) but it would be for a unique situation.  Again, I listed a number of disadvantages that I think outweigh this move being used in most street fight scenarios.



As with most things, I think it depends on how you apply not just that technique, but how much you've actually developed your overall skillset.  The better you are at fighting in general, the more capable you will be to use techniques like this, and recover if they don't work, even against competent opponents.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> Didn't take long to find one in competition.
> 
> 
> And one from the UFC in particular.


Of course. Because as was said, while it's not anybodies go-to move, it is certainly worth learning.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Flying kicks (covering distance and height) are one thing, quick jump kicks are another.  I am not a fan of flying kicks (although great fun to do) even though I practiced them for a few years, jumping over hurdles a few feet in front of the heavy bag. If the opponent is so far away you need to fly to him, he's too far to present a threat.
> 
> They are not practical IMO in a fight:  There is telegraphing, they are slow and comparatively easy to evade, impact power not any greater (as you noted), and can leave you open to being dumped.  All in all, liabilities far outweigh advantages. As far as I know, they do not exist in traditional Okinawan kata or kihon.
> 
> ...


After the kick failed. I got scared and I ran away,  I wasn't afraid of the guy as much as I was worried that  my plan didn't have the impact that I was planning of + he looked really angry after that kick.  So he chased me and I thought that was the end of it after he couldn't catch me.. This happened at the end of PE.  On the way back to class he attacked me from behind, but some how I knew he was approaching, because I went to grab his incoming arm which fell on my guard and was able to do a basic hip toss.  He fell on the ground and I landed on top mount with fist ready to punch him in the face..   

If someone wants to be progressive then take away the flying kicks.  Like this stuff.  I think things like this should be classified as "Fight Choreography"  Martial arts should be attached to it. Ditch the Martial arts uniform and wear something different.  There's nothing wrong with other than it should be clearly distinguished as something that that's Choreographed


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> As with most things, I think it depends on how you apply not just that technique, but how much you've actually developed your overall skillset.  The better you are at fighting in general, the more capable you will be to use techniques like this, and recover if they don't work, even against competent opponents.


Proof:


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> After the kick failed. I got scared and I ran away,  I wasn't afraid of the guy as much as I was worried that  my plan didn't have the impact that I was planning of + he looked really angry after that kick.  So he chased me and I thought that was the end of it after he couldn't catch me.. This happened at the end of PE.  On the way back to class he attacked me from behind, but some how I knew he was approaching, because I went to grab his incoming arm which fell on my guard and was able to do a basic hip toss.  He fell on the ground and I landed on top mount with fist ready to punch him in the face..
> 
> If someone wants to be progressive then take away the flying kicks.  Like this stuff.  I think things like this should be classified as "Fight Choreography"  Martial arts should be attached to it. Ditch the Martial arts uniform and wear something different.  There's nothing wrong with other than it should be clearly distinguished as something that that's Choreographed


That stuff is recognized as demonstrating agility and athleticism. You wouldn't break wafers if you were trying to demonstrate power. Martial gymnastics, as it were. However, while the back flips and multiple turns aren't something you're likely to see for real, the actual kick they're doing is totally usable.
As for choreographed... is there anyone who doesn't think breaking is always, 100% choreographed?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> That stuff is recognized as demonstrating agility and athleticism. You wouldn't break wafers if you were trying to demonstrate power. Martial gymnastics, as it were. However, while the back flips and multiple turns aren't something you're likely to see for real, the actual kick they're doing is totally usable.
> As for choreographed... is there anyone who doesn't think breaking is always, 100% choreographed?


Depends on what's getting broken.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Depends on what's getting broken.


Not really. The context is, pretty obviously, a demonstration. Breaking is done in practice, in demos, and in testing. That's pretty much it. And it's all 100% pre-planned.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. The context is, pretty obviously, a demonstration. Breaking is done in practice, in demos, and in testing. That's pretty much it. And it's all 100% pre-planned.


You're not a lot of fun at parties, are you.

Recognizing humor is the most important martial skill.

I know that because of the 36 Stratagems.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're not a lot of fun at parties, are you.


Sure am.


Oily Dragon said:


> Recognizing humor is the most important martial skill.


But you didn't say anything funny.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure am.
> 
> But you didn't say anything funny.


I'll try harder.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> As with most things, I think it depends on how you apply not just that technique, but how much you've actually developed your overall skillset.  The better you are at fighting in general, the more capable you will be to use techniques like this, and recover if they don't work, even against competent opponents.


As  someone who has used it in a fight,  It's not effective for the amount of energy that is put into it* unless* a person *is standing still* and *you have enough distance to run into the kick*.  You can't root in the air and that's a problem for this type of kick. 
So the impact of this kick is determined by the speed that you build up in the run, plus the person standing still If any of these 2 realities are missing then the kick will be useless

This clip highlights this truth.  (stays in one spot "aka staying still" enough running space)





This clip shows what happens when the one of the elements is missing.  The person moves away from the kick and isn't even phased.  Moving forward would jam the kick because it's impossible to adjust the timing and space needed for the kick after you leap.

Again "Running space" + "person standing still"





Same scenario same 2 elements.





This is accurate to how I understand it.   Notice at the beginning it's a "Flying kick" and towards the end he covers less distance and it becomes more of a jump kick.





If I were to sucker kick someone.  It would probably be with a fighting kick.  This is the common way that I've seen this kicked used. When the other person doesn't know it's coming.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A surprising amount of people pull off flying kicks in street fights.


You have to understand that I'm only talking about the flying side kick.  There are other flying kicks that work, but I'm not talking about those.  I'm talking about the linear one where you need running space in order to get the impact you need.  The kicks that I think of as "Jump Kicks" cover smaller distance and doesn't require a running start.  These kicks are faster so they are able to nail the opponent when the opponent is standing still.  

It's not a bias.  Next time you train give it a try. Then come back and let us know how it went.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 18, 2021)

I have seen more fancy kicks in UFC the last few years. I think it's more the surprising factor than being effective. We all know it's faster to kick a lower kick, they know it, so they are prepare for it. Before, nobody use fancy high kicks, so they were not prepare for it. 

Now, people expect high round and front kicks, so logical next step is jump flying kicks that people do not expect. Maybe later people adapt and look out of flying kicks, they then have to come up with something unexpected to win the fight.

They study the fighter like they study the football team, what is the opponent's strong and weak points and taylor the training accordingly.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I did a whole thread on it back in the day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See. Even this video shows the two elements that are needed.

1. Running start = distance to put force being the kick
2. Opponent stands still.




Steve said:


> Didn't take long to find one in competition.


This is not a flying side kick.  This kick uses a circular motion to drive the kick and not a linear one.  It's not the same kick.  


Dirty Dog said:


> As for choreographed... is there anyone who doesn't think breaking is always, 100% choreographed?


Of course.  Ask Alan lol


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> But you didn't say anything funny.


lol.. I got the band aids, but that one may need stitches lol ouch.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.. I got the band aids, but that one may need stitches lol ouch.


Fortunately, I have that covered.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Now, people expect high round and front kicks, so logical next step is jump flying kicks that people do not expect. Maybe later people adapt and look out of flying kicks, they then have to come up with something unexpected to win the fight.


The Circular Kicks and the Front Kicks are always dangerous.  They are dangerous because the kick travels outside of the field of vision.  The brain doesn't do a good job calculating strikes that travel outside of the field of vision in fighting.  It tends to drop that data and focus on the other movements in front of it.   However,  if it's a singular movement of an object on a reliable path, say a baseball, then the brain can calculate when where that ball will be.  It allows people to catch the ball without even seeing it.

When kicks in punches travel out of the field of vision the person will either look like they don't see the strike or they will drop their guard because the brain drops the data and doesn't read it as danger.   This happens a lot with hooks where the brain says "My opponent is open"  but it forgets that there's a punch that's on the way.

I know you don't like the technical stuff like this, but it all matters


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Fortunately, I have that covered.


ha ha ha.  WOW. you are on a roll today.   We just keep setting them up and you keep knocking em down lol.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> See. Even this video shows the two elements that are needed.
> 
> 1. Running start = distance to put force being the kick
> 2. Opponent stands still.



Yeah. Dynamics not normally found in the dojo.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is such a common phenomenon that I feel like it should have a name.
> Person A says "there are times you can make this work".
> Person B then goes on and on ad infinitum about how it won't work in every situation. Even though person A already said that.
> Other than "strawman argument", I can't think of a term that fits.



The but what if he has two knives gambit


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The Circular Kicks and the Front Kicks are always dangerous.  They are dangerous because the kick travels outside of the field of vision.  The brain doesn't do a good job calculating strikes that travel outside of the field of vision in fighting.  It tends to drop that data and focus on the other movements in front of it.   However,  if it's a singular movement of an object on a reliable path, say a baseball, then the brain can calculate when where that ball will be.  It allows people to catch the ball without even seeing it.
> 
> When kicks in punches travel out of the field of vision the person will either look like they don't see the strike or they will drop their guard because the brain drops the data and doesn't read it as danger.   This happens a lot with hooks where the brain says "My opponent is open"  but it forgets that there's a punch that's on the way.
> 
> I know you don't like the technical stuff like this, but it all matters


No, I am interested on this. What I am not interested are those that said you have to punch at an exact angle, you have to stand straight instead of lean forward 15deg, all those are nit picking. What you said is circular vs straight, that's an important distinction. I would YAWN if you start telling me you have to circle in complete horizontal, that it's wrong to circle in at 15deg instead 0deg completely horizontal. *The idea is circle kick*, everyone might do it slightly different depending on their body, flexibility.

Don't laugh, that's how a lot of TCMA are, that you have to do it EXACTLY, no room for give and take. Like you HAVE to do it this way, or else you are wrong. Like WC, you have to come from center line, the two elbows has to be close together that you can put a round loop around the two elbows and they can still fight, that their stance has to be like what I showed you in the video and the two knees has to be close together. They are serious about all these.


----------



## Steve (Nov 18, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're not a lot of fun at parties, are you.
> 
> Recognizing humor is the most important martial skill.
> 
> I know that because of the 36 Stratagems.


He gets like this sometimes.  Here’s something fun. If you thumbs down one of his posts he’ll thumbs down your next post or go back and hit your last one.  Very predictable. Kind of fun if you don’t let him irritate you, but a little petty for a senior moderator.  😅


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The Circular Kicks and the Front Kicks are always dangerous.  They are dangerous because the kick travels outside of the field of vision.  The brain doesn't do a good job calculating strikes that travel outside of the field of vision in fighting.  It tends to drop that data and focus on the other movements in front of it.   However,  if it's a singular movement of an object on a reliable path, say a baseball, then the brain can calculate when where that ball will be.  It allows people to catch the ball without even seeing it.
> 
> When kicks in punches travel out of the field of vision the person will either look like they don't see the strike or they will drop their guard because the brain drops the data and doesn't read it as danger.   This happens a lot with hooks where the brain says "My opponent is open"  but it forgets that there's a punch that's on the way.
> 
> I know you don't like the technical stuff like this, but it all matters


Let me give an example using punching. It is NOT that hard to learn, we all know you have to coordinate the foot, the legs, hip, waist, shoulder together with the arms to throw a punch like jab and cross. There is NO secrets, most people practice and look very similar. BUT, that's not the only form that works. Some people just punch somewhat differently. Chuck Liddell comes to mind. He is known to be a heavy puncher, here is a video of his knock outs.






The way he punches is a little different. Just doesn't look like the "perfect" punch. He punches with elbow a little wide, but he is not doing a hook punch. He use his shoulder, but not turning as much as a "good" cross punch. BUT, his record said much louder whether he is a good puncher.

This is what I mean about you don't have to do it in the EXACT way. You understand the idea of using the whole body to concentrate and explode at one focused point to deliver the max force. But you have to use the idea and find your most comfortable way of doing it. Maybe you like to stand 15deg off the perfect vertical line, maybe it's more comfortable for you to let your elbow out a little to punch............... It's the idea, the essence of how to punch that is important, not the absolute form. Not like WC that you HAVE to follow the straight form or you are wrong.

Even two people from the same school, same teacher, the way they kick or punch might look different even though they follow the same idea and same teacher.




EDIT:

One more example. Compare side kicks in TKD, Karate and Muaythai






The TKD school I went to, our teacher never said you have to do it "THIS" way. One of my friend who was a good fighter kicked with knee pointing down like Karate. Imagine if the teacher told him you are wrong, you have to chamber with knee pointing up or you are wrong!!!

TCMA school will absolutely tell you you are wrong. That's when I dismiss them all together.

I bet we can have a whole thread just to debate which side kick is better. *This is where I am not interested. I only look at the result, they are all good.*


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm talking about the linear one where you need running space in order to get the impact you need.


When you have right leg forward, all you will need is to step in your left back leg, you are ready for your flying side kick. That 1 step distance is commonly used in fighting.

There is no difference between 

- step in back leg and punch vs.
- step in back leg and flying side kick.

https://i.postimg.cc/BQSv7wtF/lin-flying-side-kick-1.gif


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Let me give an example using punching. It is NOT that hard to learn, we all know you have to coordinate the foot, the legs, hip, waist, shoulder together with the arms to throw a punch like jab and cross. There is NO secrets, most people practice and look very similar. BUT, that's not the only form that works. Some people just punch somewhat differently. Chuck Liddell comes to mind. He is known to be a heavy puncher, here is a video of his knock outs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are complain about something that most people in here don't do.  I've only seen one person in this group do what you claim and there are a lot of people in here who are in a TMA and that don't speak like you claim.

If I give an angle, it's a REFERENCE as to which direction you should head in.  You would have understood this a long time ago had you not let your bias blind you.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> As  someone who has used it in a fight,  It's not effective for the amount of energy that is put into it* unless* a person *is standing still* and *you have enough distance to run into the kick*.  You can't root in the air and that's a problem for this type of kick.
> So the impact of this kick is determined by the speed that you build up in the run, plus the person standing still If any of these 2 realities are missing then the kick will be useless
> 
> This clip highlights this truth.  (stays in one spot "aka staying still" enough running space)
> ...



Yeah. But now we can suggest staying still in a street fight opens a vulnerability. To the flying kick no less. 

Where say in the dojo. It isn't as important. 

The positional hierarchy changes.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You are complain about something that most people in here don't do.  I've only seen one person in this group do what you claim and there are a lot of people in here who are in a TMA and that don't speak like you claim.
> 
> If I give an angle, it's a REFERENCE as to which direction you should head in.  You would have understood this a long time ago had you not let your bias blind you.


I have seen enough around in my environment in the pass, it's typical. I've seen some here, not just one. Be thankful people in US tend to have more open mind. maybe they are Americanized!!! I am talking about TCMA in general, not about this forum.

I did not say about you, you said already that your school are more open mind on learning from others and use in instead of putting them down. I was referring about the thread how the body should be, 15deg off vertical or completely straight. That's nit picking.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> He gets like this sometimes.  Here’s something fun. If you thumbs down one of his posts he’ll thumbs down your next post or go back and hit your last one.  Very predictable. Kind of fun if you don’t let him irritate you, but a little petty for a senior moderator.  😅


Of the three of us, you are the one who is most blind.


----------



## wckf92 (Nov 19, 2021)

...anyone rememeber when this forum used to discuss actual wing chun...? 😂


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 19, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm pretty sure he isn't either. A flying kick, even if blocked, requires total commitment. And even if blocked, it stands a reasonable chance of disrupting the targets balance and defense, allowing for a follow up.


Good luck when you try it...
If you survive it please tell us so we can learn from your experience.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 19, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But now we can suggest staying still in a street fight opens a vulnerability. To the flying kick no less.


Will only work if you're not expecting it. Even then you would be puting yourself at risk. Look at the video no damage to Arnold. The guy Was himself on the ground.  Of course we don't know if he was just a kid with no martial arts experience.


----------



## Steve (Nov 19, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Of the three of us, you are the one who is most blind.


Maybe so.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 19, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Will only work if you're not expecting it. Even then you would be puting yourself at risk. Look at the video no damage to Arnold. The guy Was himself on the ground.  Of course we don't know if he was just a kid with no martial arts experience.


The kicker didn't have enough mass behind that kick.  Not quite sure of the effect that he was hopping to get. Maybe his expectations of the kick were unrealistic.  Maybe this is how he thought that kick would work?


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 19, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The kicker didn't have enough mass behind that kick. Not quite sure of the effect that he was hopping to get. Maybe his expectations of the kick were unrealistic. Maybe this is how he thought that kick would work?


Probably just some kid who never trained before. Still not convinced it will work. As for Wrestling "shows" well .....


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 19, 2021)

Flying kicks might be good in the Octagon or other stages where you have room and flat. I question the usefulness for real life self defense, not because it's not effective, it's the environment. If you are at a crowed place, you don't have room to pick up the speed. If the floor is not flat, it's very likely you will be tripped over when you land and injure yourself. Think in a restaurant, even in side walk, you know how uneven the pavement is and you might have a curb. It's not practical for real life fight.

As matter of fact, even high spin, side kicks might give you problem in real life fights. Uneven floor will give you problem for balancing.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Flying kicks might be good in the Octagon or other stages where you have room and flat. I question the usefulness for real life self defense, not because it's not effective, it's the environment. If you are at a crowed place, you don't have room to pick up the speed. If the floor is not flat, it's very likely you will be tripped over when you land and injure yourself. Think in a restaurant, even in side walk, you know how uneven the pavement is and you might have a curb. It's not practical for real life fight.



said for many years, if you are gong to throw a jump kick, you better be pretty darn sure of your target...if it moved, your already committed and its to late to change, and you have absolutely no root so you are incredibly vulnerable...but they sure look cool


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> if you are gong to throw a jump kick, you better be pretty darn sure of your target...if it moved, your already committed and its to late to change, and you have absolutely no root so you are incredibly vulnerable...


It doesn't matter that much if

- the target of your jump kick is your opponent's leading leg knee joint, 
- your goal is to land your fist on your opponent's face, and your jump kick is only part of your entering strategy.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It doesn't matter that much if
> 
> - the target of your jump kick is your opponent's leading leg knee joint,
> - your goal is to land your fist on your opponent's face, and your jump kick is only part of your entering strategy.



as long as they don't move


----------



## drop bear (Nov 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Flying kicks might be good in the Octagon or other stages where you have room and flat. I question the usefulness for real life self defense, not because it's not effective, it's the environment. If you are at a crowed place, you don't have room to pick up the speed. If the floor is not flat, it's very likely you will be tripped over when you land and injure yourself. Think in a restaurant, even in side walk, you know how uneven the pavement is and you might have a curb. It's not practical for real life fight.
> 
> As matter of fact, even high spin, side kicks might give you problem in real life fights. Uneven floor will give you problem for balancing.



In self defense you have literally the entire world to fight in. 

It is the octagon that limits your space.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 19, 2021)

drop bear said:


> In self defense you have literally the entire world to fight in.
> 
> It is the octagon that limits your space.


Not if you are in restaurant or bars. It's obstacles all around you.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Not if you are in restaurant or bars. It's obstacles all around you.


Most restaurants and bars in the US have more than enough space to do a flying kick. The space issue has less to do with how much space is around you and more to do with the space your opponent will allow you to have.  In the 6th grade my fight took place outside and I had to run away at first  to create enough space for the kick and then run towards my attacker for the kick and that was outdoors

Usually a person isn't going to allow that person to have a lot of space.  In indoor settings, it usually starts with a yelling match with 2 people in each other faces and then the attack.  There isn't going to be enough time and space to do flying kicks.  Maybe a flying knee, but even that will be risky.

There's enough space to do one if you have the ability to do one in the first place, but it may not be as effective has throwing stuff.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 19, 2021)

I wouldn't be surprised if the "Progressive Mindset" was to move away from the flying kicks.  As people get older, flying kicks become more difficult to do.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Not if you are in restaurant or bars. It's obstacles all around you.



You can take that fight outside the bar on to a street that could run for miles if you wanted to.

There is no limit to where your fight has to end.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 19, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You can take that fight outside the bar on to a street that could run for miles if you wanted to.
> 
> There is no limit to where your fight has to end.


Sometimes it just happens, it's not under your control. Like I said before, the pavement is not even, you might not be able to land as good as in dojo.

For the life of me, I cannot do flying kicks, something about both feet off the ground just doesn't go with me. I can think of much safer kicks that are just as effective if not more. In fact, I believe in less is more, just a simple front kick, round kick to the knee or even more compact kick like step kick in Wing Chung or side kick to the knee in Mauythai is a whole lot more effective, faster and much more compact.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Sometimes it just happens, it's not under your control. Like I said before, the pavement is not even, you might not be able to land as good as in dojo.
> 
> For the life of me, I cannot do flying kicks, something about both feet off the ground just doesn't go with me. I can think of much safer kicks that are just as effective if not more. In fact, I believe in less is more, just a simple front kick, round kick to the knee or even more compact kick like step kick in Wing Chung or side kick to the knee in Mauythai is a whole lot more effective, faster and much more compact.



Find one example of the kung fu side kick to the knee that someone has used in a street fight.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> For the life of me, I cannot do flying kicks, something about both feet off the ground just doesn't go with me.


When your BJJ opponent lies down on the ground and wait for you to mount on top of him, you just use the flying side kick to fly over him. 

Your opponent controls the ground space. You control the air space.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 19, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Find one example of the kung fu side kick to the knee that someone has used in a street fight.


It is not kung fu side kick, it's Mauythai. This one looks convincing to me:






this one has Wing Chung step kick:






I am sure these can be used in street fight, more effective and safer for you in street fight.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It is not kung fu side kick, it's Mauythai. This one looks convincing to me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am sure they can. But you never find an example of them.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 19, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I am sure they can. But you never find an example of them.


Doesn't mean they are not effective. If they work well in UFC, it will work on the street.


EDIT:
Could it be the reason you don't see it in street fight because MA school discourage student to attack the opponent's knee? I know my TKD school would not allow us to do it in sparring. We don't practice kicking low, all kicks are waist or above. I never even think about kicking the knee until I saw it on UFC.

For people that never train in MA, they don't know to kick the knee.

You know people are debating whether to outlaw knee kicks in UFC because it's a career ender.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Doesn't mean they are not effective. If they work well in UFC, it will work on the street.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> ...



Mabye they are too busy being awesome and throwing flying kicks.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Mabye they are too busy being awesome and throwing flying kicks.


I am not sure about that. I for one never really want to learn, not that I am sour grapes, I really think there are more practical kicks for self defense. Like I said, I believe in *less-is-more*. I spent 3 hours before every class alone in the school using the kicking bag, I spent 1/2 the time only on punching, then the rest half of the time on front kick. So only 1/4 the time on round and side kicks. I truly believe in the most simple technique is the most useful.

For one, I started old, if I stretch out, I can do high side and round kicks, but in real life if I run into situation I have to defend myself, you think I can say.......WAIT, let me stretch out first?!!! So I can only trust the ones I can use cold....... punching and front kick.

I spend time now practicing round kick to the knee and side kick(Mauythai style) to the knee because I don't need to stretch to do that *EVEN *I am still flexible enough to a certain point even when I am kind of cold:








I am so happy to start seeing people using front kicks and drop people in UFC that last few years. For the longest I was wondering was I totally wrong spending most of the effort on front kick even before I injured my back. I am glad UFC shows the effectiveness of front kick........Now, when I say front kick,* I do NOT mean front push kick,* actually is the snapping type where you use the ball of the foot penetrate into the body. Push kick is a whole hell of a lot easier to do. Here are a few, but I can't find the few I was looking for that drop the opponents with front kick to the body.

Notice these are NOT front push kick:


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> For the life of me, I cannot do flying kicks,


And this is the reason you're convinced they cannot be used effectively. People who can do X effectively can do X effectively. People who cannot, cannot.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> And this is the reason you're convinced they cannot be used effectively. People who can do X effectively can do X effectively. People who cannot, cannot.


so you´ve used it in a fight?


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> And this is the reason you're convinced they cannot be used effectively. People who can do X effectively can do X effectively. People who cannot, cannot.


No, I did not even try until late in the 3rd year because I have to at that stage. I practiced almost 3 years on punches and front kick because I believe in it. You can believe what you want, I am just telling it as it is.

Yes, I did* NOT *try that hard, After a few times, I just said forget it. If I really want it like I want to perfect the punching, I would have spent months the perfect it. You think it's not frustrating putting 1 1/2hr 3 times a week just on punching the bag?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> No, I did not even try until late in the 3rd year because I have to at that stage. I practiced almost 3 years on punches and front kick because I believe in it. You can believe what you want, I am just telling it as it is.
> 
> Yes, I did* NOT *try that hard, After a few times, I just said forget it. If I really want it like I want to perfect the punching, I would have spent months the perfect it. You think it's not frustrating putting 1 1/2hr 3 times a week just on punching the bag?


You're still saying the same thing. Because you cannot do something, you assume nobody else can. You're projecting your own limitations onto others. That's not a good idea.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> so you´ve used it in a fight?


I would like to see that, at older age, cold and do a flying kick in a fight effectively. when you are young, it's not as bad. BUT as you get older, try do just a high kick without stretching, forget the flying kick.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're still saying the same thing. Because you cannot do something, you assume nobody else can. You're projecting your own limitations onto others. That's not a good idea.


Do you do flying kicks in real fight. You have video of real fight doing flying kick or you just want to put me down?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Do you do flying kicks in real fight. You have video of real fight doing flying kick or you just want to put me down?


There have been a number of videos posted to this thread showing people using flying kicks. Your only response has been "I can't do it so nobody can do it" which is just silly.
Assuming your limitations are shared by others is pretty common. We have seen many threads here claiming that you can't use high kicks. Despite ample evidence to the contrary. In this thread, there is ample evidence that some people can, in fact, use flying kicks effectively.
But hey, you're free to keep your head buried and deny reality if that's what makes you happy.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're still saying the same thing. Because you cannot do something, you assume nobody else can. You're projecting your own limitations onto others. That's not a good idea.



And yes. Obviously if you can't do flying kicks. Don't do them in a street fight.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I would like to see that, at older age, cold and do a flying kick in a fight effectively. when you are young, it's not as bad. BUT as you get older, try do just a high kick without stretching, forget the flying kick.


try it in a crowded bar in my home town you´ll get a good beating...LOL


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> There have been a number of videos posted to this thread showing people using flying kicks. Your only response has been "I can't do it so nobody can do it" which is just silly.
> Assuming your limitations are shared by others is pretty common. We have seen many threads here claiming that you can't use high kicks. Despite ample evidence to the contrary. In this thread, there is ample evidence that some people can, in fact, use flying kicks effectively.
> But hey, you're free to keep your head buried and deny reality if that's what makes you happy.


Did I said nobody can do it? I am sure some people can do it. can you do it in self defense without stretching and warmup?


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> try it in a crowded bar in my home town you´ll get a good beating...LOL


That's the whole point, and that's why I never pursue it after a few times. If I really want it, I'll climb the mountain to do it.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I would like to see that, at older age, cold and do a flying kick in a fight effectively. when you are young, it's not as bad. BUT as you get older, try do just a high kick without stretching, forget the flying kick.



Imagine if you will. We are in a room and I am trying to prove a table that we can both see exists. And so I point to it. Show you it is a thing and that is my argument.

Where instead you look at this table and try to explain why it doesn't exist.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And yes. Obviously if you can't do flying kicks. Don't do them in a street fight.


it´s absolute nonsense to try this Hollywood Jackie chan crap on any street fight sorry but no guy is going to stand and let you do it...  get real guy FFS !!  If people think they can..OK up to them but sorry not for me . regardless if i can do it or not.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> try it in a crowded bar in my home town you´ll get a good beating...LOL



Try it in a mangrove swamp in my home town and you will get eaten by a crocodile.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And yes. Obviously if you can't do flying kicks. Don't do them in a street fight.


Exactly. But it would be unwise to assume your opponent shares your inability, don't you think?


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's the whole point, and that's why I never pursue it after a few times. If I really want it, I'll climb the mountain to do it.


it´s pointless to even train for it. low kicks to knees, shins, stomach, mans private parts are what is needed in real fighting.  my hands cover any upper areas. my philosophy


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Try it in a mangrove swamp in my home town and you will get eaten by a crocodile.


are you in Florida ?...  no way man these things are killers !  would soil my pants if i saw one in my home pool !


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> it´s pointless to even train for it. low kicks to knees, shins, stomach, mans private parts are what is needed in real fighting.  my hands cover any upper areas. my philosophy


Right. Because nobody ever got kicked in the head in a real fight.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> are you in Florida ?...  no way man these things are killers !  would soil my pants if i saw one in my home pool !



North Queensland.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=999625106846052


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Right. Because nobody ever got kicked in the head in a real fight.
> 
> View attachment 27621


mostly on the ground and not flying Kung Fu kicks...hahah


----------



## drop bear (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Exactly. But it would be unwise to assume your opponent shares your inability, don't you think?



Yes.

If we were to go off what people could do with no training it would be eyes closed freestyle swimming.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> North Queensland.


Australia ... got big black hairy spiders too & big jacked Roos !


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> North Queensland.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no way i would do that... gets a hold of you it´s over. drag you in the water and roll. no chance...  the most i see here is wild pigs and Deer. However in the last few years wolves are coming back over from Eastern Europe.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Exactly. But it would be unwise to assume your opponent shares your inability, don't you think?


Where did you get the idea I assume the opponent cannot do it? All I said is I don't think it's wise to do it. I would like you to point out where I said I assume people won't do it just because I don't think it's wise.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Right. Because nobody ever got kicked in the head in a real fight.
> 
> View attachment 27621


Of cause, people do flying kicks, high kicks in real fights. Is it wise? That's a completely different question. Can you do flying kicks in the bar cold, without warmup?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Of cause, people do flying kicks, high kicks in real fights. Is it wise? That's a completely different question. Can you do flying kicks in the bar cold, without warmup?


You keep trying to personalize this. And that's silly. There are, absolutely, people who can do high kicks and flying kicks cold, without warmup.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Find one example of the kung fu side kick to the knee that someone has used in a street fight.


We train that Kick  (assuming you mean kung fu flying kick to knee)  in Jow Ga but that kick is more difficult than the flying side kick that you see most people do.  I haven't done one in a long time and I just tried and lets just say that I look like a beginner. lol.  This kick is more of a jump kick than a flying side kick. But you jump up and towards the person and as you fall towards the person you extend your leg and the full weight of your jump lands on the knee.  Not sure if that's what you were thinking of.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> because MA school discourage student to attack the opponent's knee? I know my TKD school would not allow us to do it in sparring.


Schools don't discourage in a street fight.  They discourage training it because you run the risk of a student blowing out another student's knee.  Now as the owner of the school, you may have lost students because of this because no one wants to learn martial arts by getting their knee kicked in.  Then you place yourself in legal risk for negligence.

It has been in my personal experience that the schools who train it do so with their advance students who have control and the kick is never thrown hard or in full contact sparring.  When they train the kick it's in a very controlled sparring situation where the purpose isn't to "win" in sparring.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You keep trying to personalize this. And that's silly. There are, absolutely, people who can do high kicks and flying kicks cold, without warmup.


So you can't doing it.

Show me where I personalize this. Just because I cannot do it, then I cannot say it's not wise to do flying kicks in real fight? I don't think you read before you response.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I would like to see that, at older age, cold and do a flying kick in a fight effectively. when you are young, it's not as bad. BUT as you get older, try do just a high kick without stretching, forget the flying kick.


That's why I think not doing the flying side kick is the progressive thing.  I think after a certain age and weight, the flying side kick becomes more of a liability.  That's how most things are in life.  Skate board tricks as a teen and in your 20's are fine.  But as you get older, the skate board tricks that you were once good at become a liability.  People tend to lose flexibility and endurance as they get older so Older people are more likely to train things that make the fight end quicker, because they know that the longer the fight goes, the bigger the disadvantage will get.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Schools don't discourage in a street fight.  They discourage training it because you run the risk of a student blowing out another student's knee.  Now as the owner of the school, you may have lost students because of this because no one wants to learn martial arts by getting their knee kicked in.  Then you place yourself in legal risk for negligence.
> 
> It has been in my personal experience that the schools who train it do so with their advance students who have control and the kick is never thrown hard or in full contact sparring.  When they train the kick it's in a very controlled sparring situation where the purpose isn't to "win" in sparring.


Yes, they don't exactly say no, they don't allow you to do it is sparring and don't practice much. At least this is true in my school. So student don't get use to kicking low. I never even thought much until I see it in UFC and see the effectiveness. 

It's more a habit if people don't use it on the street, not that they don't know how.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> try it in a crowded bar in my home town you´ll get a good beating...LOL


I'm pretty sure that in that bar most people can barely kick above their waist let alone do a flying side kick lol


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's why I think not doing the flying side kick is the progressive thing.  I think after a certain age and weight, the flying side kick becomes more of a liability.  That's how most things are in life.  Skate board tricks as a teen and in your 20's are fine.  But as you get older, the skate board tricks that you were once good at become a liability.  People tend to lose flexibility and endurance as they get older so Older people are more likely to train things that make the fight end quicker, because they know that the longer the fight goes, the bigger the disadvantage will get.


I started TKD when I was 31, that's OLD already. I knew my limits, that I have to stretch to do high side and round kicks, these are not going to help in street fight, you cannot tell the guy......WAIT!!! Let me warm up first before we fight!!!

So at the time, I decided to put a lot of effort in punching and front kicks instead of the fancier kicks even I was learning TKD. I said I cannot do flying kicks, I really did not try that hard. After tried a few times, I just laughed it off. If I felt it's important, I would go to the end of the world to achieve it.

Speaking of what I think is important. I feel punching is very important. I spent a lot of time in practicing it. I responded in another Wing Chung thread about coordinating the foot, heel, legs, hip, waist and shoulder to focus at one point, Very similar to the concept of Chinkuchi of Okinawa Karate to synchronize the body. I practice a lot those days and I was quite good using it in punching. Since I quit, I still do bag work all these years. BUT I just went through the motion. Lately, I found I LOST IT all together.

*Remember you showed a video of doing it in slow motion. *That really rang the bell on me that I have to go back TO BASIC starting like how I started the first time, do it slow, do it light, take the time. It's been over two months, I still starting out like this at least for a few minutes and practice the punching back. I can only get the feel of Chinkuchi on and off after over two months( more off than on!!!). *that video you did was important to me.*

Point is if I really feel I need to practice flying kicks, I would go to the world's end to do it like I am trying to get back the punches. I don't even consider side kick is that practical even I could do it really good at the time. Why do I want to even use flying kicks?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> So you can't doing it.
> 
> Show me where I personalize this. Just because I cannot do it, then I cannot say it's not wise to do flying kicks in real fight? I don't think you read before you response.


Where do you personalize it? Every time you ask if *I* can do something. For the record, I can. But that is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if I can do it, or if you can do it. What matters is the incontrovertible fact that there are absolutely, positively, 100%  people who can do it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I started TKD when I was 31, that's OLD already.



Maybe that was old for you.  Not old for other people.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Where do you personalize it? Every time you ask if *I* can do something. For the record, I can. But that is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if I can do it, or if you can do it. What matters is the incontrovertible fact that there are absolutely, positively, 100%  people who can do it.


So when you insist that I cannot do it, that's why I discount it is NOT personalizing? Maybe I should stop, you can ban me.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)




----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

Wu Tang Flying Magie kick...haha




I knew a guy who was a massive Film Fan. Had loads of Videos of this Hong Kong kung fu stuff and even Godzilla Films...when we drunk beer together we watched them. Honestly I laughed so hard.


----------



## Alan0354 (Nov 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe that was old for you.  Not old for other people.


Starting to learn at 31 is old. Of cause you practice when you were young, at 31 or even 51 is ok. Not if you just start at 31 from white belt.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Starting to learn at 31 is old. Of cause you practice when you were young, at 31 or even 51 is ok. Not if you just start at 31 from white belt.


31 is old for TKD. Most do start as Teens. Tried it at 27. Hated it. Was fit enough but all that kicking was not me.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> So when you insist that I cannot do it, that's why I discount it is NOT personalizing? Maybe I should stop, you can ban me.


I'm not insisting that you cannot do it. *YOU* said you cannot do it.


Alan0354 said:


> Starting to learn at 31 is old. Of cause you practice when you were young, at 31 or even 51 is ok. Not if you just start at 31 from white belt.


I've had a student start when she was 67. My wife started when she was in her 50's. 31 is nothing.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've had a student start when she was 67.


Yeah good for her but c'mon the Quality? Good for some fitness but not much more.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Yeah good for her but c'mon the Quality? Good for some fitness but not much more.


I stand by the quality of all of my students. You clearly know nothing about it.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> stand by the quality of all of my students.


Well you would as you teach them.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I never even thought much until I see it in UFC and see the effectiveness.


It just depends on how one trains.  We did low leg kicks for conditioning where you just let someone kick your leg.  Even though we weren't kicking our hardest, after 4 kicks we understand what a stronger kick could do.  We held a heavy bag while others did front kicks.  Even though we aren't getting hit directly we can still feel the force behind that kick. 

Some schools use a kicking bag that has plastic bags on the inside.  It allows the kicker to kick the pad as hard as they want without injuring the pad holder.  The down side is that the kicker will think his kick is weak because the pad holder doesn't seem phased. If you used that type of pad then it would be easy to think that a front kick or side kick isn't powerful.   If you hold a heavy bag for a kicker then you'll know right away that the kick is powerful.  

If you kick those slap pads then the sound of those pads make you think your kick is stronger than what it really is.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Wu Tang Flying Magie kick...haha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I told my mom that I wanted to learn kung fu and she signed me up for karate for 2 years I wondered why none of my karate looked like kung fu lol.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I told my mom that I wanted to learn kung fu and she signed me up for karate for 2 years I wondered why none of my karate looked like kung fu lol.


I think most people considered them to be pretty much the same. I only really saw it in books as a kid.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> are you in Florida ?...  no way man these things are killers !  would soil my pants if i saw one in my home pool !


Stomp it in the groin lol.  I went on a tour in the swamp.  I saw some alligators and felt that the boat I was in was too small lol


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Starting to learn at 31 is old. Of cause you practice when you were young, at 31 or even 51 is ok. Not if you just start at 31 from white belt.


That is YOUR limitation.  Not necessarily a limitation for other people.


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## drop bear (Nov 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> no way i would do that... gets a hold of you it´s over. drag you in the water and roll. no chance...  the most i see here is wild pigs and Deer. However in the last few years wolves are coming back over from Eastern Europe.



One did eventually get him.

Bit his thumb off


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## caped crusader (Nov 21, 2021)

drop bear said:


> One did eventually get him.
> 
> Bit his thumb off


These creatures have survived all through our Evolution for a reason. Some things you just don't love with..lol


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## caped crusader (Nov 21, 2021)

Awooooo.....


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> Maybe so.


Wonderful.

This encounter sums up every discussion I've ever had with a Wing Chun student.  
_
Cord : How long have you been blind?
Blind Man : How long have you been blind?

Cord : I'm not blind.
Blind Man : Am I?

Cord : Do you answer every question with a question?
Blind Man : Do you question every answer?

Cord : Aww, talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Blind Man : Buddha once sat before a wall, and when he arose he was enlightened.

Cord : Do you compare yourself with Buddha?
Blind Man : No. Only to the wall._

That's probably because Bruce Lee inspired it and wrote this in the preface to the original script:

_*"The story illustrates a great difference between Oriental and Western thinking. This average Westerner would be intrigued by someone's ability to catch flies with chopsticks, and would probably say that has nothing to do with how good he is in combat. But the Oriental would realize that a man who has attained such complete mastery of an art reveals his presence of mind in every action...True mastery transcends any particular art.*_


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## Callen (Nov 22, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> This encounter sums up every discussion I've ever had with a Wing Chun student.
> 
> _Cord : How long have you been blind?
> Blind Man : How long have you been blind?
> ...


IMO, this speaks more to the Western mindset (in regards to understanding the essence of 功夫) than it does to Wing Chun students in general.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 22, 2021)

Callen said:


> IMO, this speaks more to the Western mindset (in regards to understanding the essence of 功夫) than it does to Wing Chun students in general.


That's why it's so circular and in a lot of ways, unproductive unless someone is willing to try to see both sides.

It's like the old kung fu joke of 食夜粥 (late night congee).  Does eating porridge in the wee hours make you have kung fu, or does having kung fu make you eat porridge late at night?

These mysteries keep me alive, because congee is delicious and full of carbs.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 22, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's why it's so circular and in a lot of ways, unproductive unless someone is willing to try to see both sides.
> 
> It's like the old kung fu joke of 食夜粥 (late night congee).  Does eating porridge in the wee hours make you have kung fu, or does having kung fu make you eat porridge late at night?
> 
> These mysteries keep me alive, because congee is delicious and full of carbs.



Completely off topic, but the best Congee I had was in Beijing, went great with the Youtiao...talk about carb overload

OK, I'll go now


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Completely off topic, but the best Congee I had was in Beijing, went great with the Youtiao...talk about carb overload
> 
> OK, I'll go now


I think you're on topic, or close enough.

There is so much anti-Chinese sentiment in the world, I think the world needs to understand the relationship between Beijing congee, kung fu, and overall contentment, and how refined of a concept that is, not some backwards esoteric junk.

Imagine if everyone suddenly hated Cuban sandwiches, just because of communism.  I'm cooking plantains tonight...not because I love communism or anything.  I am a progressive eater.  That's how I ended up consuming Wing Chun, fang, wing, and claw.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 22, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think you're on topic, or close enough.
> 
> There is so much anti-Chinese sentiment in the world, I think the world needs to understand the relationship between Beijing congee, kung fu, and overall contentment, and how refined of a concept that is, not some backwards esoteric junk.
> 
> Imagine if everyone suddenly hated Cuban sandwiches, just because of communism.  I'm cooking plantains tonight...not because I love communism or anything.  I am a progressive eater.  That's how I ended up consuming Wing Chun, fang, wing, and claw.



 I'll have homemade Chinese red bean buns for breakfast tomorrow.... made by an authentic Beijingren......and if that makes me a communist...then well then....You can't be a revolutionary if you don't eat chilies Red Bean Buns.


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## Cynik75 (Nov 24, 2021)

Is Lethwei but I think this kind of competition is just for chunners:


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> I can't find a video of it, so I made this picture that sums it up.
> 
> View attachment 27552


Please excuse my ignorance, is this similar to white crane spreading wings posture in Yang long form of Tai Chi Chuan?


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 26, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Please excuse my ignorance, is this similar to white crane spreading wings posture in Yang long form of Tai Chi Chuan?



Not at all.

No.


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