# Daft Question



## saru1968 (Oct 3, 2006)

I know this is a daft question knowing the history of the group involved, but for those in Japan were there any visitors that stood out that attended Ayase on a Tuesday night in May 2006.

http://www.konigunninjutsu.com/schoolarticles/jmay06.html

Slap me anytime you like....


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## Bujingodai (Oct 3, 2006)

Well the description of class style and the location, I would have to assume they were there. It matches.

Maybe they were not lying when they said they went to Japan.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 3, 2006)

Interesting article.  However, I get a very different feel of the tone of their meeting when I read the last few sentences.


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## Kreth (Oct 3, 2006)

Bujingodai said:


> Well the description of class style and the location, I would have to assume they were there. It matches.
> 
> Maybe they were not lying when they said they went to Japan.


All of this info is available from the web. Funny how the only pics they've posted from their "Japan trip" are shots of landmarks, and no shots of their group.


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## bydand (Oct 3, 2006)

Kreth said:


> All of this info is available from the web. Funny how the only pics they've posted from their "Japan trip" are shots of landmarks, and no shots of their group.



Kind of what I thought also.  Those shots of Soke Hatsumi's Dojo are the same angle I've seen before, in the discription on how to get there if I remember right.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 3, 2006)

I gather but, with description of the way to the Budokan and such. It sounds or looks unplanned. They penned it the way I'd write it.
I couldn't see why they wouldn't be able to show up there for it, it's not like security holds you back.
Mind you I tend to agree about the last few sentences. I'm just playing devls advocate in this.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 3, 2006)

Hmmmmmm.......


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## Don Roley (Oct 3, 2006)

I have been involved in the case of the Konigun and the consensus seems to be that the story is made up. The reasoning is simple; they took pictures of themselves everywhere else they went in Japan and they did not bother to take a picture with Hatsumi or outside of the Bujinden or Ayase. Their story about not knowing that Hatsumi teaches on Tuesdays at Ayase is kind of silly when you consider the training scheduale is availible on the internet. I also don't think they would want to possibly be indentified by certain folks that live here in Japan and would have avoided the Ayase (when people were around) at all costs. And their story of getting to talk with Hatsumi seems a bit strange in that Hatsumi tries to get out of Ayase ASAP after class ends. Any more than a few words is quite out of the question as they close down the building.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 3, 2006)

That is also a very good point.
Hatsumi did depart rather fast from that building. You sort of would expect a picture request if a gift was brought. It would bring more to their case.
However I would say it looks as if they attended the country of Japan at least.


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## Kreth (Oct 3, 2006)

Bujingodai said:


> However I would say it looks as if they attended the country of Japan at least.


I have my doubts. I could find pictures like that online.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 3, 2006)

Kreth said:


> I have my doubts. I could find pictures like that online.


 
It would be all to easy!


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## Koinu (Oct 3, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It would be all to easy!



While I tend to agree with you all about the pic's smelling fishy the one thing that struck me as having a ring of truth to it was the was their comment about Soke saying all Ninjutsu comes though him ! ?


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## saru1968 (Oct 3, 2006)

Koinu said:


> While I tend to agree with you all about the pic's smelling fishy the one thing that struck me as having a ring of truth to it was the was their comment about Soke saying all Ninjutsu comes though him ! ?


 

But there was comment in a simular vein on the Shinobi winds documentary...

But really if you go all that way, why not have yourself taken in the pictures.


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## Kreth (Oct 3, 2006)

saru1968 said:


> But really if you go all that way, why not have yourself taken in the pictures.


Exactly, I can't seeing a group of wannabe ninja going all that way and not getting a photo-op with Hatsumi sensei...


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## bencole (Oct 3, 2006)

DonRoley said:
			
		

> I have been involved in the case of the Konigun and the consensus seems to be that the story is made up.


 


Kreth said:


> Exactly, I can't seeing a group of wannabe ninja going all that way and not getting a photo-op with Hatsumi sensei...


 
I hate to be the party-pooper, but why does anyone care if it actually happened?

The only reason that Hatsumi-sensei (or anyone at Hombu) would have allowed the Konigun crowd to enter the dojo/watch practice/train is that they hid the fact of who they were.

Wow! That's something to write home about!!!

I compare this act (if it happened) to the one that Brandon Alvarez pulled (which did happen) when Alvarez hid the fact that he was a Jinenkan student just so he could get permission to film at Hombu and interview Hatsumi-sensei for his DVD "Shinobi Winds." The person who translated for Brandon was astonished to find out several months later that Brandon had hidden the fact that he was Jinenkan. 

Alvarez's reasoning? "It wasn't important enough to mention."

Yeah, right. 

If the Konigun crowd did manage to observe/train/whatever, it only occurred because they hid their origins.

Anyone who thinks that Hatsumi-sensei allowing entry/training/whatever under those conditions signifies that he is embracing the Konigun crowd as "brothers in ninjutsu" is seriously kidding themselves.

It's clear that some individuals can use such opportunities to build legitimacy for themselves and so Hatsumi-sensei could be "harmed by association."

My only comment is that people should not allow the same thing to happen a second time. 

-ben


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## Don Roley (Oct 4, 2006)

bencole said:


> If the Konigun crowd did manage to observe/train/whatever, it only occurred because they hid their origins.



Which of course kind of makes their statement about talking to him about Konigun an obvious lie. 

But there is also the possibility that they told Hatsumi and he just had never heard of them. If I get a chance to talk to Hatsumi I have better things to discuss than the  Konigun. I think that goes for everyone else. I doubt Hatsumi even knows who they are.

But I really doubt they showed up at all. Too many problems with the story. They took pictures of themselves with a museum employee and tried to pass it off as their teacher. I just can't imagine them showing up to see training and not having a picture taken with Hatsumi to try to make themselves look more legit.


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## Kreth (Oct 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> I just can't imagine them showing up to see training and not having a picture taken with Hatsumi to try to make themselves look more legit.


There's one hell of an echo in here... :lol:


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## Don Roley (Oct 4, 2006)

Kreth said:


> There's one hell of an echo in here... :lol:



Smart people think alike. But certain things need to be repeated so that everyone hears the truth.

In addition, I am fairly certain that the original story has been modified. When the story first came out, I thought that they had shown up to the honbu. Due to the late hour it goes to, I do not go there all that often but made a point of showing up to Ayase when they said they were coming to Japan. I had reason to believe that they had me on their list of people to sue and wanted to look them in the eye when I told them that summons served outside the USA were not valid. :ultracool 

But I did not run into them and the reason I can remember is that while I was showing up to Ayase, they seemed to have shown up to honbu. Now the article says they originally showed up to honbu and when told it was closed they went to Ayase. Anyone who has been to both can tell you that if you show up to training at honbu when training is supposed to start you can't turn around and make it to Ayase before it ends.

Yeah, and no photos. These guys can't get enough of photos with various people. I could believe they lied about who they were and sat in on training if they had a photo of them with Hatsumi or in front of the budokan. Otherwise I can't see any reason to believe them.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 4, 2006)

Honestly, I really don't care about the story.  Maybe I should have said "Entertaining" rather than "Interesting".  I was bored at the time...


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## agranjero (Oct 4, 2006)

These folks have taken a beating everywhere they posted pictures and scrolls. They, as Don said, posted pictures of an employee from the museum and called him their long lost teacher. They put pictures anyone could get from Hatsumi's dojo. They posted scrolls of things, like calendars and horoscopes that immediately got translated and thrown in their faces. Overall, they are lightweights in the world but there is a reason not to ignore them. They get students all the time and the students are in the age range of 15 to 23 or so. Very vulnerable and very impressionable young people.

I posted some information I learned on Martial Arts Planet. It seems some movies from the early 80's may have provided all the creator of Konigun needed to create his own style. The old movies Ninja Wars and Shogun's Ninja apparently contain much of the events their "shidoshi" incorporated into their own history.  It is for this reason that everyone should just be aware of these folks. They like to "borrow" history from others and change their stories on a regular basis.


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## Don Roley (Oct 7, 2006)

agranjero said:


> The old movies Ninja Wars and Shogun's Ninja apparently contain much of the events their "shidoshi" incorporated into their own history.



I seem to remember that Ashida Kim had a history on his site that came from a bad Japanese ninja movie. Maybe they took it from there.

Here is the silly history.

http://ashidakim.com/history.html

Edit- ok, so the history you are talking about seems to be the following.



> Saiga Magoichi was born to the family of Suzuki and was head of the Kishu Saiga Ninja Group. He was a master of Tsuda Ryu Kaijutsu, explosives and firearms methods as well as Saiga Ryu Ninjutsu. He based his headquarters on the Saiga Cape. There he recruited men from the Jizamurai (local samurai) from the vicinity of Saiga Castle. He was involved in the Battle of Naniwa Kanzakigawa Gassen in which Oda Nobunaga took part. Saiga employed the tactic of Shakino jutsu " flag discarding" to win the battle. The Saiga group left their own battle flags behind and moved into position carrying copies of the flags of their enemy. Nobunaga who saw his own flags and thought they were his allies (Hayes).



If so, then the source is indeed Hayes. I remember the story, but can't remember the book. And it is not surprising that there would be a movie made loosely based on the actual historical incident. There are a lot of movies made in Japan that use history as kind of a start point.

Is this the history you were talking about?


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## Fu_Bag (Oct 8, 2006)

agranjero said:


> These folks have taken a beating everywhere they posted pictures and scrolls. They, as Don said, posted pictures of an employee from the museum and called him their long lost teacher. They put pictures anyone could get from Hatsumi's dojo. They posted scrolls of things, like calendars and horoscopes that immediately got translated and thrown in their faces. Overall, they are lightweights in the world but there is a reason not to ignore them. They get students all the time and the students are in the age range of 15 to 23 or so. Very vulnerable and very impressionable young people.
> 
> I posted some information I learned on Martial Arts Planet. It seems some movies from the early 80's may have provided all the creator of Konigun needed to create his own style. The old movies Ninja Wars and Shogun's Ninja apparently contain much of the events their "shidoshi" incorporated into their own history. It is for this reason that everyone should just be aware of these folks. They like to "borrow" history from others and change their stories on a regular basis.


 
OK.  I have a silly question.  Didn't someone post that the Koningun ninja group claims it was almost wiped out by a massive battle with the Togakure-ryu ninja folks?  If that's what they're claiming, then why on Earth would you want to visit the 34th Soke of Togakure-ryu?  I'm having a hard time picturing the dude thinking he could avenge his fallen brothers and sisters by wiping out Hatsumi-sensei and all of his students present at the time.

Actually, let me rephrase, I can picture it but not in a way that would be favorable to the Koningun dudes.  Pesky history repeating itself and all that.......


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## Eternal White Belt (Oct 14, 2006)

Fu_Bag said:


> OK. I have a silly question. Didn't someone post that the Koningun ninja group claims it was almost wiped out by a massive battle with the Togakure-ryu ninja folks? If that's what they're claiming, then why on Earth would you want to visit the 34th Soke of Togakure-ryu? I'm having a hard time picturing the dude thinking he could avenge his fallen brothers and sisters by wiping out Hatsumi-sensei and all of his students present at the time.


 
It was actually claimed that there was an "Iga" ninja attack on the konigun, not the Bujinkan or the Togakure ryu.  To implicate the Togakure ryu would be to implicate Hatsumi Sensei, Stephen Hayes (who was training there at about that time), and anyone else who was training during that period (which would mean the konigun would be opening themselves up to a lawsuit.  They are very adept at skirting legal issues.  They claimed the "Iga" ninja attacked, and only "master saija", dallas, and "saija's son" escaped.


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## Fu_Bag (Oct 14, 2006)

Eternal White Belt said:


> It was actually claimed that there was an "Iga" ninja attack on the konigun, not the Bujinkan or the Togakure ryu. To implicate the Togakure ryu would be to implicate Hatsumi Sensei, Stephen Hayes (who was training there at about that time), and anyone else who was training during that period (which would mean the konigun would be opening themselves up to a lawsuit. They are very adept at skirting legal issues. They claimed the "Iga" ninja attacked, and only "master saija", dallas, and "saija's son" escaped.


 
Hi Eternal White Belt. Thanks for the reply. 

Wow. Their true claim is even better than what I remembered!!! I think Don Roley mentioned that there are a bunch of Neon Suited Ninjas operating out of a theme park in Iga. I hope that's not the group that's being credited with almost wiping out the Koningun clan. That'd be..........something.........


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## agranjero (Oct 15, 2006)

I have been thinking about this history and I really think we have all missed it. I think it was really the "Iga Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" that they escaped from. Fight was over a grave misunderstanding with regard to an extra large pepperoni pizza and a six pack of Kirin. It wasn't neon uniforms, it was the radio active glow of their shells. It works as well as any other explanation.


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## Fu_Bag (Oct 15, 2006)

agranjero said:


> I have been thinking about this history and I really think we have all missed it. I think it was really the "Iga Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" that they escaped from. Fight was over a grave misunderstanding with regard to an extra large pepperoni pizza and a six pack of Kirin. It wasn't neon uniforms, it was the radio active glow of their shells. It works as well as any other explanation.


 

Ah ha!! So, I guess the Koningun were actually almost wiped out by a "Splinter" Ninja group (insert cymbal crash here)...... Now things are starting to make more sense......


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## agranjero (Oct 16, 2006)

Ah, "Splinter group" :mst: I needed a good laugh first thing in the work day. It does explain a lot doesn't it? :lfao:


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