# Is there really a solution?



## muayThaiPerson (Mar 29, 2003)

I was in a knife seminar in a TKD gym in Koreatown, Los Angles, CA. They were calling up volunteers to stab the sensie witha rubber knife. Many times the instructor got stabbed. SO i was wondering if knife arts are really practical and has anyone ever been attacked by a knife? What was you primary goal? To graba weapon? To grab the knife? Run?


----------



## arnisador (Mar 29, 2003)

I've been attacked by a knife.

In my opinion, the training just raises your odds. Being up against a knife is a tough situation.


----------



## muayThaiPerson (Mar 29, 2003)

Kaly I think. Somthing like that. Its longer. like tiki-tiki kaly?


----------



## arnisador (Mar 29, 2003)

I don't place the substyle though. Could it have been pekiti tersia?


----------



## Elfan (Mar 30, 2003)

Sorry just had to post it:

www.jkd-kbh.dk/video/karate.wmv 

So funny.


----------



## Mormegil (Mar 30, 2003)

Check the thread on "discussion of techniques"

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6515&perpage=15&pagenumber=9

start at page 9 for the knife stuff

IMHO, an art that emphasises knife work may give you a better chance than one that merely teaches knife defense.  There's no garauntees of course.


----------



## Lyfeenz (Apr 10, 2003)

Being up against an opponent with a knife is pretty serious buisness. Training will help the most , just try to protect your vitals. Get some knife training , some kali or other FMA forms are a good start , for me , one move comes to mind first . Run.
It may sound sissy , but it could save your life against an opponent who could care less about his own.


----------



## pesilat (Apr 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *I was in a knife seminar in a TKD gym in Koreatown, Los Angles, CA. They were calling up volunteers to stab the sensie witha rubber knife. Many times the instructor got stabbed. SO i was wondering if knife arts are really practical and has anyone ever been attacked by a knife? What was you primary goal? To graba weapon? To grab the knife? Run? *



Does training in boxing mean you'll never get hit?

Nope. It just means that you'll get hit less and, hopefully, be able to protect yourself from getting hit in a really bad spot.

Same is true with a knife. It makes you aware of what the knife can do and gives you an advantage. But there are no guarantees.

As PG Edgar Sulite put it, "In a knife fight, there are three possible outcomes: he's better than you, you die; you're better than him, he dies; you're about the same, you both die. 2 out of 3, you're dead."

Now, that's something of an oversimplification because luck, situation, and environmental factors can also influence the outcome. But the 2/3 chances of dying is probably pretty accurate. Especially if you're unarmed which is the most likely circumstance.

But training can help tip the odds in your favor of landing in that 1/3 zone. You'll probably have to get medical attention ASAP to survive. But you'll have survived the fight.

This is why awareness and avoidance are such important aspects. Not just against a knife. But against _Mexican Judo_ - "judo n't know if I gotta gun; judo n't know if I gotta knife." (this is the punch line to a joke I once heard ... it's much funnier when you hear it from a Mexican).

Mike


----------



## moromoro (Apr 10, 2003)

NO, THERE IS NO REAL EMPTY HANDED KNIFE DEFENSE.....

the only good thing these techniques do is give you the confidense and the right mentality when it comes to a real life or death situation,,

it also has to be remembered contrarary to popular belief by our filipino american friends, the knife is not a primary weapon in eskrima.....

in fact it is considered by some masters as a girls weapon....
you grab your knife and ill grab my yakkal garrote man its too easy no matter how great a knife fighter you are, 
better yet knife boy take your knife and ill grab my pinuti now we are talking, or how about trying to take a kenjutsu master with a knife,,,,,?????

as you can see considering the knife as some sort of great weapon is wrong the top of the chain are fire arms then swords then sticks, arrows even weighted cadena however order you want but below the this weapons chain is the knife....... 


terry


----------



## Kingston (Apr 10, 2003)

i think moromoro is wrong about the empty hand knife defence.

There are way's to defend from knife attacks safely with empty hands.  Of course nothing will make you immune to being stabed by a knife. I dont think there is any reason why knife vs knife is any safer, or would have a hight succes then empty hand vs knife.


----------



## pesilat (Apr 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *NO, THERE IS NO REAL EMPTY HANDED KNIFE DEFENSE.....*



I wouldn't go that far. I know too many people who have effectively defended themselves against a knife wielding attacker.



> *the only good thing these techniques do is give you the confidense and the right mentality when it comes to a real life or death situation,,*



I would agree that this is one of the benefits, but not the _only_ one.



> *in fact it is considered by some masters as a girls weapon....
> you grab your knife and ill grab my yakkal garrote man its too easy no matter how great a knife fighter you are,
> better yet knife boy take your knife and ill grab my pinuti now we are talking, or how about trying to take a kenjutsu master with a knife,,,,,?????*



Very true. If you know the guy has a knife. If you know you're about to get into a fight. Otherwise, you're just as dead.

As far as it being a "girl's weapon" ... you're just as dead.



> *as you can see considering the knife as some sort of great weapon is wrong the top of the chain are fire arms then swords then sticks, arrows even weighted cadena however order you want but below the this weapons chain is the knife....... *



Every weapon is king in some environment. Firearms are only good if you have ammo. Swords are only good if you have the time and room to draw them. Arrows are only good if you've got the range to draw, knock, and fire them. Whatever it is, there's always a situation where a given weapon won't be the best option. Conversely, there's always a situation where a given weapon _will_ be the best.

Mike


----------



## moromoro (Apr 10, 2003)

of course you have greater success if you are defending against empty hands against knife if you are fighting someone with no knife skills....
but if you fight someone with experience there is no defense against knife, if someone knows how to use the knife and can see that you are weaponless he WILL CUT YOU.... 

In cebu and zamboanga we have an old system of knife fighting especially made if you have the knife and your opponent is empty handed, this is the payong system, or simply called payong, 

there is no empty handed defense against knife if there is a adequet system of empty hands defense against knife why dont they demonstrate against real knife,,,,
see there is no real empty hands defense against a knife, 
IF THERE IS PROVE IT


----------



## moromoro (Apr 10, 2003)

Is there really a solution?

THAT DEPENDS ON THE ATTACKERS SKILL, 

If he is a master NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO ARM YOURSELF ALSO, My master once beat two guys in quezon city who attacked him with a knifes, he had a ball pen and yes there was witnesses...

so in final there is a solution if you are empty handed but it is very very very minimal, maybe less than 1% i guess better than notthing.


----------



## moromoro (Apr 10, 2003)

palusut

I wouldn't go that far. I know too many people who have effectively defended themselves against a knife wielding attacker.

yes every body can win the lottery once twice and even 3 times, 

but can i ask you this do you know anybody who has successful defended himself empty handed against a knife attack more than 8 times and also where these knife attackers known for there skill????
you have a chance if they are street thugs, but still this is minimal, 

in any weapons defense your chances are minimal, this is the truth but people who run schools dont want you to know this,,,


----------



## Seigi (Apr 10, 2003)

I agree with Arnisador & Pesilat.

Your odds are increased, but of course your best defense is to either get the upper hand with a bigger or more powerful weapon. 

Or RUN!

Peace


----------



## pesilat (Apr 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *palusut
> 
> I wouldn't go that far. I know too many people who have effectively defended themselves against a knife wielding attacker.
> ...



First, I wrote the post you're responding to, but I'm not "palusut" ... that's another guy 

Second, everything you're saying is accurate ... but how many times are you going to be attacked by a "master?" How many times are you going to be attacked by a person who has any knife training?

Generally, you're going to be attacked by a "street thug" (that is, after all, the definition of "street thug," right?).

Against a good knifer, most of us wouldn't have a chance even if we weren't empty-handed.

Mike


----------



## moromoro (Apr 10, 2003)

sorry pesilat (the names are similar)

because iam from the philippines we where never trained to fight a common attacker with a knife we always trained as if the attacker would have skill. 
Also the filipino way is to always use a weapon even if your attacker is empty handed, in the majority of domestic disputes inthe Philippines one will almost always pull out a weapon, i.e sundang, itak, pinuti or even knife
one thing bothers me about your last statement
"Against a good knifer, most of us wouldn't have a chance even if we weren't empty-handed".

the only time he would have the advantage over you is if you also had a knife or empty hand as i said before pull out your bahi, yakkal, kamagong garrote better yet bladed weapons, pinuti, sundang....to teach the knife sucker some respect...

in the philippines contrarary to popular belief there where (are) very few pure knife fighters, this is because they would never ever challenge a eskrimadore in a bladed duel with the eskrimador holding a pinuti and the knifer a knife... they where never feared 
IN THE PAST FEW YEARS PEOPLE IN AMERICA HAVE OVERESTIMATED KNIFE FIGHTING SOMETHING SERIOUS, 
We simply laugh about this back home........

terry


----------



## pesilat (Apr 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *sorry pesilat (the names are similar)*



Not a problem 



> *the only time he would have the advantage over you is if you also had a knife or empty hand as i said before pull out your bahi, yakkal, kamagong garrote better yet bladed weapons, pinuti, sundang....to teach the knife sucker some respect...
> 
> in the philippines contrarary to popular belief there where (are) very few pure knife fighters, this is because they would never ever challenge a eskrimadore in a bladed duel with the eskrimador holding a pinuti and the knifer a knife... they where never feared *



You're talking about "dueling" ... that's not fighting. That's sparring (even if it's lethal in nature). I'm talking about the guy with the knife who walks up behind his victim and stabs him in the kidney, then takes the victim's wallet and walks away.

As far as defending against this guy, I'm talking about the knifer missing the kidney and hitting the belt or just grazing and the victim having a chance to turn around and fight. In this type of scenario (which is much more likely than two people squaring off with weapons), there's no chance for the defender to get a weapon of any sort, even to draw his pinuti.



> *
> IN THE PAST FEW YEARS PEOPLE IN AMERICA HAVE OVERESTIMATED KNIFE FIGHTING SOMETHING SERIOUS,
> We simply laugh about this back home........*



I think that has more to do with cultural differences. Here in America, the knife (or other cutting/stabbing implement) is among the most dangerous of weapons one can realistically expect to encounter. Not many people running around the US with swords or machetes (much less bolos, barongs, pinutes, kampilans, etc.)

If anything, I think much of the American populace _underestimates_ what a knife can do.

Mike


----------



## Emptyglass (Apr 10, 2003)

Hi all:

I will agree with Moro Moro to a point. In my experience, all things being equal, if you have an equally skilled empty hand fighter against an equally skilled knifer, I think the empty hand person will lose every time.

My reasoning on this is simple, the gross motor movement and effort required in order to disable an attacker with the empty hand is much greater than that necessary with the knife. A good knife simply has to touch the opponent in order to do some damage. In panic, the person facing the knife may do more damage to himself by thrashing or pulling away violently to escape the blade. Against a skilled knifer, you will get cut, multiple times and probably seriously enough that if you don't die immediately, you will probably die if you don't get to a hospital very quickly.

That being said, I've been taught you learn empty-hand knife defense in the hope that the person you're facing doesn't really know what they are doing, which will hopefully be the case. However, if you treat every attacker as an expert (and you have good, effective training), you should be able to do the best that you can in an empty hands vs. knife situation.

My reactions to confronting a knife are in the following order:

1. Run - if at all possible. There is no honor being face down in the gutter or face up in a hospital bed with HIV, Tetanus, etc... just because some fool wants to use a knife on you. Run away!

2. Try to create an opening or distraction to either run or get the situation or my advantage if I'm stuck.

3. Fight for my life with every means at my disposal until the attacker is disabled and I can escape to a safe distance as soon as possible. When someone draws a knife on you, you have to assume that they mean to kill you. Anyone who learns good knife-fighting technique or has faced a knife down/been cut before knows that it is a serious, life-threatening emergency and should be dealt with as such. Note that escape as soon as possible bit is important as trained martial artists can end up as the murderers in these situations if you continue to stomp the attacker's head to a bloody pulp on the sidewalk after both his legs and knife arm are broken, he/she's unconcious and you have the opportunity to escape. If you can get out, do so as soon as possible.

Just my opinions on the subject, but I do agree with parts of what everyone has said so far. The worst thing you can do if attacked by a knife is to just give up. In my opinion, if you're going to go down, it's always better to go down fighting. It might make the difference between life and death in this situation.

Itotally agree with Mr. Castro and his post above. Most people in the US have been fooled by movies where the knifer gets the blade kicked from his hand or disarmed simply since it is "just a knife". The movie 'The Hunted' may change that perception somewhat (High Art/Exposure is little known except among folks like us nowadays). As for laughing about the knife as a gir'ls weapon in the PI, I find that a little hard to believe if you don't have a longer blade or yantok/baston available to you when you face it. 

Good discussion!

Thanks,

Richard Curren


----------



## moromoro (Apr 11, 2003)

interesting views... alot lack realism though

i agree and this is what everybody should be thinking, if someone catches you offguard and he has a knife you have to be ready to fight for your life be prepared for the worst if you have trained properly hopefully you have a chance...and another thing today we may also come across syringes which may be used as weapons.........


You're talking about "dueling" ... that's not fighting. That's sparring 

pesilat, my friend there is a big difference between sparring and dueling, most "duels" in the P.I today occured from fueds or after a few rounds of tuba or san miguel also gambling, because the houses are so close together people run in and grab there bladed weapons (if they own guns they grab these first).... i have been unlucky enough to witness this on 3 occasions......


As for laughing about the knife as a gir'ls weapon in the PI, I find that a little hard to believe 

 Emptyglass 

well believe it 
why don't you see knifers specialising in knife challenge eskrimadors, we are a bladed culture but the knife is a sister weapon to its more effective bladed brothers.... also in espada y daga the knife is always held in the weak hand (left) you dont hear of it beign called daga y espada dont you....
Knifes are fun dont get me wrong but for us true Eskrimadores we wont base our training on the knife.....we dont belive in wasting that much time on it particularly when you can still improve your garrote skills and also yr skills with longer bladed weapons..
this is why people laugh at arts which spacialise with the knife...especially knife to knife can you see how ridiculous this is???


----------



## Kingston (Apr 11, 2003)

hmm. Well in my experience living in Canada my whole life, there are not much duels going around 

im not exaclty sure about the self defence laws where im at, but i can tell you that there is a greater chance for legal reprocusions if you start knife fighting as your base form of defending yourself.

just think of how the courts will react when a "master" knife fighter slices and dices some punk kid in a bar fight?

second not many people who try to stab you wait for you to pull your weapon! THAT DOESN"T MAKE ANY SENCE. "no thats fine, ill risk death to let you get ready, its not like im trying to stab you or anything"

second, to "win" when your attacked with a knife and your empty handed all you has to do is not get stabed, you don't have to dissarm the knife, you don't have to kick the attackers ***, all you have to do is live till the next day. You dont need any training to do that JUST RUN! If you cant run do whatever you can. There is no empty hand vs knife technique that works in real life moromoro? well running is one!! Then if you cant run, there are plenty of options to at least live to charge the guy for attemped murder.

If you going to get in knife vs knife duels you mite as well bring a gun cuz you'll win faster.

look at the whole picture guys, empty hand vs knife techniques are to give you options. 

Yes my teacher has practiced empty hand vs knife, with the attacker using a real knife and improvised attacks. (im not anywhere near that level lol) if he can defend from improvised attacks against a real knife it works, "oh, well im sure if a true master faced him he would die" ya and if a better fighter faced him he would die to! so what! Thats not any type of point to argue against empty hand techniques. 

If the attacker is more skilled then the defender the defender will lose 90% of the time, that just logic. A "true" knife fighter can lose to empty hand techniques it all DEPENDS. 

BUT in the streets surviving is winning i know that cliche but its true.

Kingston 1 moromoro 0


----------



## moromoro (Apr 11, 2003)

kningston my jamaican friend your just reapeating yourself....

there is an american knife system called AMOK the master of this art also doesnt really believe in empty handed knife defense.......

all real eskrimadore from the PI never believed in disarming and empty handed techniques against a knife although they all say use something else such as monet powders or spit in the attackers eyes now if you can distract him you have a chance....

WHAT I DONT LIKE IS WHEN PEOPLE SHOW DRILLS AND WHERE A BELT AND SAY YES THIS IS HOW YOU DEFEND AGAINST A KNIFE ATTACK THIS IS ********..... ESPECIALLY SINCE MOST OF THEM HAVE NO EXPERIENCE AGAINST A REAL BLADE...

ALSO YOU SAID

second, to "win" when your attacked with a knife and your empty handed all you has to do is not get stabed, 

VERY VERY VERY WRONG, ( i can see your lack of experience on the subject here) stabs are far easier to defend against slashes and cuts are mush harder if they try sungkite on ya well thats another story, 

you see you have to really worry about cuts, the major points to be concerned about are your jugular, your wrist and your thighs a cut in these places and your really really dead, (rapid blood loss) stabs are also very dangerous particularly when stab to the heart, bladder, kidneys, liver or if it penetrates the lung, 

also if you train hard enough and you can slash at a much faster rate then you can stab particularly if the defender is holding his distance it is better to close it by cutting ( mixture of the two is the best) also multiple slashes are far harder to defend against..



"im not exaclty sure about the self defence laws where im at, but i can tell you that there is a greater chance for legal reprocusions if you start knife fighting as your base form of defending yourself."


i dont know about the US but here in australia knives are a category R weapon in the same class as a gun, brandish one in self defense and you got alot of explaining to do.....

"hmm. Well in my experience living in Canada my whole life, there are not much duels going around"

well i think you misunderstood me in the PI today they are not dduels they are angry fueds and confrontations...

last but not least what style do you practice,,


now lets change the score

moromoro 10 kingston -1
thats better


----------



## Cthulhu (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *...
> better yet knife boy take your knife and ill grab my pinuti now we are talking, or how about trying to take a kenjutsu master with a knife,,,,,?????
> 
> terry *



How many people walk around with pinuti and katana in their back pockets?

How many with a knife?

Cthulhu


----------



## Guro Harold (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *palusut
> 
> I wouldn't go that far. I know too many people who have effectively defended themselves against a knife wielding attacker.
> ...



Hi moromoro,

I didn't post in this discussion, pesilat did.

Thanks,

Palusut


----------



## pesilat (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *pesilat, my friend there is a big difference between sparring and dueling, most "duels" in the P.I today occured from fueds or after a few rounds of tuba or san miguel also gambling, because the houses are so close together people run in and grab there bladed weapons (if they own guns they grab these first).... i have been unlucky enough to witness this on 3 occasions......*



Nope. In my opinion, this is sparring, albeit lethal in nature. Both parties know they're about to get in a fight, they know the weapons involved and how many opponents there are. And they probably have some idea of the skill/abilities of the person they're fighting.

In my opinion, a "fight" is a situation where there is no pre-arrangement (and the respective parties running to their homes to get weapons constitutes, in my mind, a pre-arrangement).

Now, a duel may become an ambush if one party gets some buddies together. Or it may become a brawl if both parties get some buddies.

But, by and large, this is semantics. They are all "fights."

But here in America, "duels" as you describe them aren't likely to happen (at least not with me and my friends involved). If I've had words with a guy and he heads for his house to get a weapon. I'm not going to run to my house to get a weapon. I'm going to attack him then and there and insure that he doesn't ever make it to his house.

Mike


----------



## Kingston (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *kningston my jamaican friend your just reapeating yourself....
> 
> there is an american knife system called AMOK the master of this art also doesnt really believe in empty handed knife defense.......
> ...



how did i get a -1? anyway, when i said stabed i ment cut, stab cut its all the same lol

i would consider that i came away a "winner" if i got attacked by a knife and got away alive (wether i ran or not it doesn't matter)

so that whole thing about slashing was kind of misdirected.
the score is now Kingston 11 moromoro -1

BOO YAA!

if you have time to make any type of relfex action when a knife is coming at you (stab slash whatever) i think it would be possible to train to make a "possitive" reaction therefore not dying.

yes stabing is easier to defend against then slashing, you can try it at home its quite obvious.

Then there is the fact that 99% of the population are not phillipino MA practitioners.

Its a pretty safe bet that the guy with the knife has little to no training.....does that mean you should start fighting? No. But it does mean that if the guy try's to suprise you with it, most likely you should be able to defend at the the first strike allowing you more options. 

every now and then even very skilled people will get stabed err cut in practice. BUT a few times in, lets say kali practice,  two guys sparring knife vs knife will get tagged......there is no reason why empty hand stuff cant work in real life. Why is this? Because in real life not everyone is an expert knife fighter! not even 75% of the population train seriously in knife fighting....AND HOW MANY OF THOSE WILL BE THE AGRESSOR!! it would be a one in a million chance you would be attacked by a serious martial artest who happens to be good with knives.

first day of class we did knife work, let me tell you i tried to stab/slash/cut the guy, didn't work, accualy i ended up stabing myself a couple times! untrained knife guys, though still very dangerous, cant handle skilled people.

personaly i dont see the sence in trained specificaly on knife vs knife. Its pointless(for self defence), mite as well learn techniques for that time you get hit by lightning and dont know what to do.

end score Kingston 20 moromoro 0!!

p.s. im not jamaican


----------



## Kingston (Apr 11, 2003)

oh ya i almost forgot. In my system we never say "this is the way you defend against this attack"

I study Systema.


----------



## moromoro (Apr 11, 2003)

man you can have 100 in your score i dont give a ******... good for you..

the bottom line is it there really a solution against a knife attack with empty hand knife defense

1. that depends on the skill of the opponent..

2.When it comes to weapon defense your chances are always minimal.. no matter who (remember this aint the movies, and this aint the DOJO)

3. Against someone who has mastered knife especially payong system NO CHANCE EVEN IF YOUR UNBELIEVABLE WITH EMPTY HANDS....

4. IF YOU SAY THAT EMPTY HANDS WILL WORK ON ANYBODY WITH A KNIFE, I THINK THIS IS WRONG AND I WOULD HATE TO BE ABLE TO PROVE IT...........As far as iam concerned there are people teaching empty hands knife defenses saying that this will work, they show a technique and the students follow...UNDERSTAND THE LIMITATIONS OF EMPTY HANDS AGAINST KNIFE...

also i would prefer to be attacked by a knife than other bladed weapons,,
knigston i bet you have a sylabus for gun defenses as well iam i right?????


(* Edited for avoiding Profanity Filter.
Rich Parsons
MT Moderator 
*)


----------



## moromoro (Apr 11, 2003)

kingston

"how did i get a -1? anyway"

because you dont have a clue about what you are talking about....


----------



## Cthulhu (Apr 12, 2003)

Mod. Warning

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Thank you,

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-


----------



## moromoro (Apr 12, 2003)

i just had a look at the web site systema seems like a comprehensive military martail art system, (life or death) military attitude..... it looks good.....
looks a ***** load better than krav maga.......


----------



## Kingston (Apr 12, 2003)

"IF YOU SAY EMPTY HANDS WILL WORK ON ANYBODY WITH A KNIFE......"

i dont remember ever saying that empty hands would work on anyone with a knife....i dont think many people have ever said that (at least no one iv talked to)

yes some people show a technique then the students follow. But not EVERYONE does that. Systema doesn't.

"that depends on the skill of the oponent"

everything depends on the skill of the oponent......weapon vs weapon, empty hand vs weapon, empty hand vs empty hand, it all depends on the skill of the oponent......common sence.

"when it comes to weapon defence your chances are always minimal.. no matter who"

of course the threat of injury/death as well as difficulty raises with the effectiveness of the weapon being used. a knife is harder to defend against then empty hands a gun is harder to defend against then a knife and so on.

Does that mean next time i get in a situation where running is not possible your saying there is no way the knife defence technique i learned while being attacked with improvised strikes, using improvised counters, (eventualy training against a live blade) and at full speed, against a relatively skilled person. (someone with training).

There is no way that those techniques would work? On ANYONE?

note: the amount of people accualy trained to be able to kill a man with a knife within seconds is very very low. NOT TO MENTION the fact that why would someone with such training be in a possition to kill you before flashing the knife?

Is that not common sence? Isn't the biggest part of self defence common sence? 

when is someone "who has mastered knife especially payong system" going to try and rob me of my wallet, or get pissed off at me so much he wants to murder me.

of course empty hand vs knife techniques have less of a chance working against someone with knife training, but it does at least have a satisfactory chance of working against a relativly untrained person.

iv heard of people getting stabed in the neck and living, getting stabed 20+ times and living, obviously knives are more dangerous then empty hands, but exactly HOW dangerous they are depends on the weilder of the knife. In most cases it would not be a payong master.

yes Systema does have strategies/techniques for gun defence, but it is not part of the regular class curriculem. (at least at the place i train) I personaly dont have much of an opinion on gun defence though.

basicaly the point is yes there are empty hand vs knife techniques out there that work and they can save your life, and just like everything else, it is not going to be 100% succesfull in every situation.
Again like all martial arts there are going to be people who train lasy, or train completly wrong.

moromoro you seem to have an educated opinion, but just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they know absolutly nothing about what they are talking about. In terms of self defence there are difinatly things you can do to either beat the attacker, or lessen the danger, or escape.

I may not be the most knowledgable peson to talk about this subject, but i feel that if you always try to look at something in a logical manner, in a relative manner, you can get a pretty good idea of how things are.

If the movement is real, then the technique is real. if the movement is fake the technique is fake and therefore wont work.
If you use improvised attacks with an honest partner (with some tips) you will eventualy become quite good at empty hand knife defence. This doesn't mean that you are now immune to being cut. It just means you have a couple more options.


----------



## Mormegil (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *all real eskrimadore from the PI never believed in disarming and empty handed techniques against a knife although they all say use something else such as monet powders or spit in the attackers eyes now if you can distract him you have a chance....
> *




I'm not so sure about this.  I had the privilage to study (for a few days) with Grand Tuhon Jerson "Nene" Tortal in the PI a few years ago.  At the time, his system was called "Dekita Tersia - Trankadas - Echekite."  I'm pretty sure he's revised the name by now.  Either way, it's pretty knife oriented.  

He had me doing empty hand defense to knife attacks (real blade!).  Some of these even included disarms.  Some drills even included being attacked by a knife, when you're sitting in a chair, unsuspectingly.  

So, I don't think such blanket statements saying "all real eskrimadores" can be too accurate.


Granted, you'll almost definately get cut, but hopefully, not in the vitals.  "Playing" with an untrained friend, with him with a knife, trying to cut me, I found I was able to defend against a majority of his attacks - that meant I wasn't stabbed in the gut, heart, or face.  Sure I may have had a few cuts on my outer forearm (if it wasn't a rubber knife), but I'd most likely live.  I was even able to gain control of his arm, and force a disarm about 1 out of 5 times.  Of course, I realize, he's untrained.  Hopefully the street thug won't have too much more training.


----------



## Mormegil (Apr 13, 2003)

In reply to the futility of knife on knife training...

I'm not so sure on that.  I know a number of people who carry little locking folders.  So it is possible.

Funny thing, I posted on a subject of knife on knife sparring.  I mentioned I (with my limited training), find I am less likely to gain control of my opponent's weapon hand when I'm also armed.  Take a look at that thread if you have a comment or opion, please: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7367


----------



## moromoro (Apr 13, 2003)

i agree with kingstons statements, it will always come down to your training and the skill of the opponent...
(never give up attitude when your life in danger)


Mormegil

yes, the filipino arts can be funny, (i dont have any experience with the negros systems) 
but some masters will add to their curriculum techinques and drills that they themsleves will never use when it comes down to a real fight, (grand master caballero of the decampo system was said to do this) from my experience with GM navarro he also does this i was amazed at how he will train his other students, ( i train with him 5times a week 1 on 1) he would show them drills and techniques that i never saw him use on sparring and when practicing with me...
i asked him why and he says that he does not trust them (some of them have even been training for a while, but there goals are to become teachers and not fighters) and he also says that is just basics and when a real fight comes along you do this and not that, its just to make the system look good and teachable, (this is where some of the modern  and older filipino arts with grading systems (i.e 1- 10 dan) come along, to hide things from the student---- many techers (FMA) will keep teaching you crap and give you gradings to make you feel good, like i have said earlier the filipino arts in there original form where very quick to learn (although some people learn quicker than others) in todays age they have tried to make a system out of it, my teacher GM Abrian has always told me i do not have a system meaning no baics no sylabus and no gradings....

 because the old way of techching there where only priciples and solutions to real attacks no 1 to 12... in this way you really couldnt teach it in a class, dojo setting it was always tought one on one.........


----------



## Mormegil (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *i agree with kingstons statements, it will always come down to your training and the skill of the opponent...
> (never give up attitude when your life in danger)
> 
> ...



Definately possible.  But you have to admit, against an unskilled attacker, empty hand knife defense can work (can, not will).


----------



## moromoro (Apr 13, 2003)

But you have to admit, against an unskilled attacker, empty hand knife defense can work (can, not will).

it can on some attackers but not all, and how many times can you keep hoping that your attacker will be unskilled he could have killed someon before or actually inflicted injury on many before, also these attackers have unstable murderous minds many will not hesitate to kill you,, so you have to be carefull and train for years and train properly for it to work

no weekend workshop will help..


----------



## Mormegil (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *But you have to admit, against an unskilled attacker, empty hand knife defense can work (can, not will).
> 
> it can on some attackers but not all, and how many times can you keep hoping that your attacker will be unskilled he could have killed someon before or actually inflicted injury on many before, also these attackers have unstable murderous minds many will not hesitate to kill you,, so you have to be carefull and train for years and train properly for it to work
> ...



Well, I've been attacked 0 times with a knife.  I haven't been in a fight since high school, back in 1992.  I avoid dangerous situations as much as possible.  Hopefully, I won't have to worry about being attacked many times by knife wielding people.  I guess I'll keep my fingers crossed.


----------



## lost_tortoise (Apr 16, 2003)

My two cents (moro moro...that is two pennies).....

Moro moro,
I am not sure what your circumstances are, but I do not encounter much life and death conflict here.  I am 32 years old, I live in a country where you can be escorted out of a public place for wearing a large knife much less a sword or machete (the United States of America) and I haven't been involved in an unorchestrated combat situation in 12 years.  I have, however, been in conflicts (a lot of conflicts!!) involving weapons (blunt, sharp, projectile, flexible) and I can tell that you are speculating about a different dynamic than what I, and I imagine the majority of those posting to this thread, am used to facing.  Please take this into consideration before you make such dogmatic and definitive statements.  Also, I carry knives.  They are concealable (more important than you might think here in the states), effective tools and handy in those DAILY muggings that all of us suffer through.  I am neither a girl nor accustomed to being nice when laughed at by others.

As far as the thread goes, I agree with much of what persilat has contributed, not just because he is a friend, but because I believe he has a good handle on how things work here in the states.  Overall, I would say that training in weapons systems cannot hurt.  If nothing else, I have gained a clearer understanding of the dynamics of such a situation and of the unified theory of weapons dynamics (baston, sword, same angles, same weapon etc.)  Oh oh...I think I just stepped in a pile of my own B.S., so I'd better stop here.

Lastly, if we all just used Anting Anting wouldn't this be a moot point?!?


----------



## arnisador (Apr 16, 2003)

Duplicate post deleted.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## moromoro (Apr 17, 2003)

letss get one thing clear i agree that you have to be ready incase an attacker attacks you with a knife and you have to kept training if only these skills will give you the confidense and mentallity ready to deal with the situation.....

ONE THING MY ATTITUDE IS (UNLIKE MOST OF YOU WHO THINK THAT FACING A KNIFE IS A WALK IN THE PARK) THAT WHEN SOMEONE HAS A KNIFE AND YOUR UNARMED YOUR CHANCES ARE ALWAYS MINIMAL. HE HAS THE ADVANTAGE REGARDLESS OF YOUR TRAINING....


2 THINGS LOST_TORTOISE

1. when attacked by a knife attacker you do not know his skill level and cannot predict what he can do.........

2. IT IS ALWAYS VERY DIFFICULT TO FACE A BLADED WEAPON IN THESE SITUATIONS....THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES THAT YOU WILL NOT BE HURT OR EVEN INJURED SERIOUSLY...... CHANCES ARE YOU WILL BE HURT AND MUST EXPECT THIS.....


also LOST_TORTOISE iam willing to give up my 17years of FMA to learn you empty hands knife defense, since you think it is so easy and you can very confidently (from your post) guarantee that it is no problem to disarm an knife weilding attacker....





> Lastly, if we all just used Anting Anting wouldn't this be a moot point



Also unless you can spaek our language and know our culture you cannot understand and will not have anting anting or oracion....dont mock these things even if you dont believe it....


----------



## lost_tortoise (Apr 17, 2003)

Perhaps I did not make *MY* thoughts on facing a knife-wielding attacker clear.  I would do everything I could to get the hell outta dodge!  I mentioned briefly that I have been in plenty of BAD situations.  I have been cut a few times and I DO NOT want to experience it again!  It shut me down every time...my reactions were slower, shock fogged my "zone", the whole nine yards.  I am lucky to have lived through those situations and I thank God for the blessings!  If I encountered an attacker with a knife and I was empty handed, I would hope escape was an option.  If not, I would hope that falling back on the skills I have acquired and practiced over and over would allow me to emerge alive....I would not act under the illusion that I would be unscathed.  
Oh, and about the Anting Anting issue, you don't know me well enough yet to know what I believe....you may be surprised.  I have a great deal of reverence for all things spiritual and I had no intention of mocking anyone's beliefs.
This is a stimulating discussion and I hope to experience more exciting discourse on this discussion board.


----------



## pesilat (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *also LOST_TORTOISE iam willing to give up my 17years of FMA to learn you empty hands knife defense, since you think it is so easy and you can very confidently (from your post) guarantee that it is no problem to disarm an knife weilding attacker....*



Umm ... no one (lost_tortoise or otherwise) has said anything about "guarantee that it is no problem to disarm an knife weilding attacker"

Not sure where you got that.

I think we're all in agreement that empty hand vs. knife (or any other weapon, for that matter) is a *BAD* situation.

I think LT's point was that, here in America, we face completely different issues than what you face where you live.

You said things earlier to the effect that "a knife is a girl's weapon" and many you know "laugh at the knife as a serious threat" because you just pull your longer weapon (i.e.: pinute, garrotte, etc.)

But here in America, 90% of the time that we'd be faced by a knife, we'd be empty handed. Therefore, in our country and culture, a knife is a _very_ serious issue ... as you have just said above.



> *Also unless you can spaek our language and know our culture you cannot understand and will not have anting anting or oracion....dont mock these things even if you dont believe it.... *



Well, I won't speculate on whether LT was mocking or not. I can definitely see how you could get that impression since there is no body language or verbal inflection to read in this medium.

But you have a tendency to state things in very black & white terms (dogmatic is the term LT used and I think it fits). What you have said is, I'm sure, completely accurate in your environment. But you say it as if it were universal truths. It's not. So, I'm going to turn your statement around a little bit. If you don't understand _our_ culture/environment, don't preach to us about how we should perceive it.

Please continue sharing your experiences with us. But there's no need to belittle people just because their experience differs from yours. Simply offer your perspective and let us learn what we can from it.

I'm not trying to attack you, moro, just trying to bring a little perspective to this discussion because it looks like it might be heading toward trouble.

Mike


----------



## moromoro (Apr 17, 2003)

hi LT

pesilat please read LT last thread compared to his first one and also read my last thread,

 QUOTE]You said things earlier to the effect that "a knife is a girl's weapon" and many you know "laugh at the knife as a serious threat" because you just pull your longer weapon (i.e.: pinute, garrotte, etc.)[/QUOTE] 

one more thing can you imagine challenging someone with a knife and they have a stick, iam not talking about self defence iam talking about challenging and also self defence, i.e iam sure if your home was broken in to and the robber had a knife and you could use your garote you would wouldnt you im i right pesilat?? Many of the GM i have spoken to will laugh if you challenge them with a knife and they use their garrote.... they also laugh at completely knife based arts but in all due respect these men are hard eskrimadors thats why they laugh......




> I'm not trying to attack you, moro, just trying to bring a little perspective to this discussion because it looks like it might be heading toward trouble.




pesilat
please read my 2 points on my last thread do you agree with this??  if you do wheres the trouble......
i found it a little amusing how particularly you and most of the people on this thread seemed to this empty hands knife defense was easy and very posible, a knife attack in training is a heck of a lot different from real life.....


iam an eskrimador it has been in my family for 4 generations and i respect the fact that when someone has a knife you chances if you are empty hands are minimal.......and like you recently said it is bad news it sure as hell aint easy....



LT




> Oh, and about the Anting Anting issue, you don't know me well enough yet to know what I believe....you may be surprised. I have a great deal of reverence for all things spiritual and I had no intention of mocking anyone's beliefs.



NONE TAKEN, to some of us these beliefs are important, i have recently been exposed in a learning capacity with the oracion, also some KULAM.......






> Umm ... no one (lost_tortoise or otherwise) has said anything about "guarantee that it is no problem to disarm an knife weilding attacker"



Not sure where you got that.


from the very first post on this thread pesilat i have said that it was almost if not imposible for empty hands knife defense, now every other person has disagreed and said there was,  some even angryly disagreed remember they all think that it is possible, now i respect the knife if you are empty handed, but i give it no respect if i have my garrote regardless of whos behind it.  iam not trying to attack you also pesilat but i think that you have jump the gun here a bit this time, you dont have to agree with me your opinions are good and valid to some extent but not in facing every skill level of attacker iam sick of repeating myself,

but kept the good points comming when you critique have some good points about why not just critique for the sake of criticising this is a post about a solution for knife defense remeber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## pesilat (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *
> one more thing can you imagine challenging someone with a knife and they have a stick, iam not talking about self defence iam talking about challenging and also self defence, i.e iam sure if your home was broken in to and the robber had a knife and you could use your garote you would wouldnt you im i right pesilat?? *



You're absolutely right. But "challenges" like you describe aren't at all common here in the States (to my knowledge anyway) ... and that's the precise point I'm trying to make. Your experience (and that of your instructors) is completely valid. But it doesn't invalidate our experiences here, either.



> *i found it a little amusing how particularly you and most of the people on this thread seemed to this empty hands knife defense was easy and very posible, a knife attack in training is a heck of a lot different from real life.....*



Huh? I _never_ said that empty hand knife defense was easy. Nor did anyone else. If so, could you cite a reference to the specific post?

Empty hand defenses against the knife are absolute last resort. If I'm going to die anyway (which is likely if I'm empty hand vs. knife), then I may as well die fighting. And, who knows, with a little luck I'll actually survive the encounter.

I've never seen anyone on this board claim that empty hand vs. knife was "easy".



> *from the very first post on this thread pesilat i have said that it was almost if not imposible for empty hands knife defense, now every other person has disagreed*



No one disagreed with that point. People disagreed with _how_ you said things ... not what you said 



> *they all think that it is possible*



Ahh ... but there's a huge difference between "possible" and "probable." Yes, it's "possible" to survive an empty hand vs. knife encounter. It's even "possible" to get away without getting cut. Is it "probable"? No.

I think many of us acknowledge that it's "possible" ... based on first or second had experience of it happening.

But I think all of us agree that it's not likely.



> * iam not trying to attack you also pesilat but i think that you have jump the gun here a bit this time, you dont have to agree with me your opinions are good and valid to some extent but not in facing every skill level of attacker iam sick of repeating myself,*



Unfortunately, "repeating yourself" is exactly what's required out here in this medium.

In this medium, all we have is words. We have no vocal inflection or body language, much less physical contact, to help us explain things. Consequently, we often find ourselves repeating ourselves with slight twists trying to get our point across.

Conversations that, in person, would take about five minutes can take 500 posts out here because of this very difficulty.

It's a double edged sword. On the one hand, we're able to meet people from all over the world to share and learn. On the other, we spend a lot of time going round and round trying to explain ourselves adequately.



> *but kept the good points comming when you critique have some good points about why not just critique for the sake of criticising this is a post about a solution for knife defense remeber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *



Absolutely  Back on topic ...

I think, actually, that this specific thread has played itself out.

The overall consensus seems to be that there isn't really a solution. Our training in the area of empty hand vs. knife is purely intended to (hopefully) buy us enough time to get away or to get a weapon of our own.

Mike


----------



## moromoro (Apr 17, 2003)

hi pesilat



> Empty hand defenses against the knife are absolute last resort. If I'm going to die anyway (which is likely if I'm empty hand vs. knife), then I may as well die fighting. And, who knows, with a little luck I'll actually survive the encounter.



this is my view exactly might as well die trying and have that atttude......



> You're absolutely right. But "challenges" like you describe aren't at all common here in the States (to my knowledge anyway) ... and that's the precise point I'm trying to make. Your experience (and that of your instructors) is completely valid. But it doesn't invalidate our experiences here, either.



of course challenges dont happen there i think this was how i said it hopefully after this post you can finally understand me....


every real experience against a knife has to be respected and we should all learn from these experiences this is how we get better knowing what works in real combat.......

thanks


terry


----------



## pesilat (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *olf course challenges dont happen there i think this was how i said it hopefully after this post you can finally understand me....*



Yup. I think we're all on the same page now 




> *every real experience against a knife has to be respected and we should all learn from these experiences this is how we get better knowing what works in real combat.......*



Couldn't have said it better myself.

Mike


----------



## redfive (Apr 18, 2003)

Please help me understand, Is it just your system that does not do that much knife fighting and empty hand defence, or is it that way in most of the Philippines. All of the instructors and Masters here in the States, Germany, Europe that I have met and trained with have all tought empty hand against knife and stick. They all seemed to have a lot of faith in facing a knife and being empty handed. They all learned there systems in the Philippines. Remy Presas got  attacted a couple of times by muggers, here in the U.S. He did just fine granted his skill level was way above the average person, but any training is above the average attacker.
  All of the instructors, treat it all as the same, whether you have a stick, knife or are empty handed. 
  I have faced a knife twice. I didnt get cut or stabbed, becouse of what I was tought. The first time I had my combat folder on me, but he came in to fast  for me to draw it. So I had to go empty handed. the second time I had my folder and my gun on me. I still had to start off empty handed until I got time and distance to draw my gun. So unless you walk around with your sticks in your hand all the time, your going to have to face the knife empty handed at least for the moment. Most of all knife fight here in the states start from an ambush or from someone drawing it from a fight already in progress. There are know challanges or duel style fights. And the fact that all impact weapons are illigal in the states and bolos, means that if you where here you would either have to carry a knife or go to jail when they catch you walking through the mall with a garrotte.  So you would be an escrimador with out sticks. This brings me back to my question for you. Do you all practice empty hand against knife. If its such a girly weapon then why does everyone seem to fear it empty handed.Becouse odds are when you face one you will be empty handed in the begining at least. O and just out of coriosity what do the masters in the Philippines think of westerners as far as stick fighting ability and all. I'm not trying to start anything, I just wonder what the perception is.

 Your freind in the Combative Arts, Redfive.

Ps. My instructor talked very highly  of the workings of Anting, Anting. You have a very rich culture.


----------



## moromoro (Apr 18, 2003)

hi redfive,

no in my system we do alot of work on empty hands against knife and some garrote all are based on basic and advanced attacks.. 



> All of the instructors and Masters here in the States, Germany, Europe that I have met and trained with have all tought empty hand against knife and stick. They all seemed to have a lot of faith in facing a knife and being empty handed.



i see your point i will try to explain myself, you see A ESKRIMADOR'S PRIMARY WEAPON is the GARROTE or also a host of other bladed weapons i.e PINUTI in a masters (GM's) (of the philippines) point of view it is ridiculous for someone with a knife to think they can attack him head on if he has his primary weapon with him, do you understand????  this is why they laugh at completely knife based systems,    



> All of the instructors, treat it all as the same, whether you have a stick, knife or are empty handed.



what do you mean by this, i dont really understand what you are saying............can you explain better......

one more thing many masters will show you alot of things which they may not actually do in a fight, they do this to try to systemise their training and gain students, once you have been training a while or have a great relationship with your GM then he will tell you.........
Also ask your instructor or yourself how would you handle an attack by another eskrima GM or master if he had a stick and you are empty handed, or if he had a knife and you or your instructor is empty handed.....

GM in the philippines always say that against someone with real skill with a weapon and you are empty handed your chances are always very slim............ofcourse they believe it is very very possible to disarm a knife weilding attacker with little skill but you are still at a disadvantege....... remeber it all comes down to skill of the attacker...


> and just out of coriosity what do the masters in the Philippines think of westerners as far as stick fighting ability and all.


i know amy be this will stArt something here, i will say not much they see green, there are some good westerners though... you will always see westerners win competitions and many GM's will joke about this saying they let them win so they will come back so they can give us more money..........for this question look at the thread the term moro and thekuntawmans reply and also my reply.....


> My instructor talked very highly of the workings of Anting, Anting. You have a very rich culture.


yes, many the vast majority people in the P.I still believe in oracion and anting anting, in my last trip on feb march this year i had a chance to learn these as well as kulam which i will be researching somemore....

p.s who is your instructor? what system do you do? i was just interested thats all


thanks

Terry


----------



## redfive (Apr 19, 2003)

That clears a lot up for me. The way I originaly took your posts, was that the knife was not thought of that highly.Now things make sence. The reason I got hooked into the Filipino fighting arts is becouse of the knife work. Compared to what I had learned through other systems. My base system is Modern Arnis. My instructor was Anding De Leon. He tought ,what I guess is old Modern Arnis now. He tought it the way he learned it in the Philippines, under Remy. Which was great, becouse we learned a lot of the Traditional moves and alot about the culture. His brother is  a very high ranking instructor in Doce Pares, under the Canetes. So he would sneek some of that into the training on the side, and his brother would come down to Texas and teach. Remy did not get along to well with the Canetes so Anding never mintioned Doce Pares to much. I then met a group that studied under Ernesto Presas, and started to study with them.
  The Filipino training realy improved my Jujitsu training and rounded things off. I now study primarily with W. Hock Hochheim, which is more combat based, which is where my roots realy are. He teaches a lot of realistic stick and knife work.

              thanks for the responce, Redfive


----------



## moromoro (Apr 19, 2003)

no problem


----------



## moromoro (Apr 22, 2003)

hi redfive



> They all seemed to have a lot of faith in facing a knife and being empty handed.



can you please explain this, and i hope that they are not transfering this attitude to their students....
Facing a knife empty handed is dangerous business a number of things have to be taken in to account... A KNIFE IS VERY VERY SHARP AND CAN EASILY CUT YOU SEVERING AN ARTERY OR PUNCTURING YOUR ORGANS. EVEN IF YOU THINK OF YOURSELF AS BEING AN EXPERT YOU ARE STILL AT A GREAT DISADVANTAGE IN FACING A KNIFE EMPTY HANDED....
ALSO MANY INSTRUCTORS WILL TEACH YOU A VIARIETY OF DISARMS USUALLY DONE WITH A DULL WEAPON AND FEED WITH NO REAL INTENT. 



> All of the instructors, treat it all as the same, whether you have a stick, knife or are empty handed.



WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS??
You cannot treat facing someone with a stick a knife or empty handed the same way, 

P.S EVEN IF YOU PRACTICE AT FULL SPEED EMPTY HAND KNIFE DEFENSE AND ARE SUCCESSFUL 100 OUT OF 100 WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO A REAL KNIFE ATTACK YOU WILL STILL BE THE ONE DISADVANTAGE if you are empty handed.......


THANKS

TERRY


----------

