# Ata?



## XxTKDPenguinxX (Aug 17, 2004)

Just wondering how many people here were members of the ATA?  How many instructors, trainees, etc.?


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## songstrike (Aug 17, 2004)

ATA here Penguin,

  I am red decided,  been training for 2 years.


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2004)

Sorry but what is ATA???


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## bignick (Aug 17, 2004)

American Taekwondo Association...

p.s....are you guys the ones that use the camoflauge belt?


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> American Taekwondo Association...
> 
> p.s....are you guys the ones that use the camoflauge belt?


Camoflauge Belts....you are going to have to explain that one??


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 17, 2004)

Camo belts have a very "slimming" effect on the waistline, provided the wearer is standing in heavy jungle.  One can't see the middle as easily.


Regards,


Steve


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Camo belts have a very "slimming" effect on the waistline, provided the wearer is standing in heavy jungle. One can't see the middle as easily.


 
I see....


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## NW Boiler (Aug 18, 2004)

ATA 1st Dan here......


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## bignick (Aug 18, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Camo belts have a very "slimming" effect on the waistline



in that case i'm gonna go order me a whole camo dobok


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## XxTKDPenguinxX (Aug 18, 2004)

Yes... We have Camo belts.  The kids love the "Army Belt."

I think Camo was used because Eternal Grand Master needed a cross between two different types of green belts.

  Camo is the rank that students are now required to free spar for testing.  The meaning behind the belt is, "the sapling must now fight its way among the other trees."

ATA uses Song Ahm style TKD.  Song Ahm translates to mean "Pine Tree Temple"  So the belts have a great meaning behind them with nature.


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## Marginal (Aug 19, 2004)

Doesn't the cammo belt only help represent that great meaning to children?


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## bignick (Aug 19, 2004)

thanks...i thought that was the ata...Penguin...sorry about kinda hijacking your thread....


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## XxTKDPenguinxX (Aug 19, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Doesn't the cammo belt only help represent that great meaning to children?


  I have never heard of this.  I, personally, feel that the addition of the different belts was to help show progress better as well as help add to the financial aspect of it all.  
  In the begining there were only 5 color belts. White, yellow, green, blue, and red.  The addition of orange, camo, purple, and brown came later.  I don't know the true reason as to why.  I just have my opinion.

Nick,

  No worries... I rather see the questions asked and hopfully answered than never asked at all  .


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## Shu2jack (Aug 20, 2004)

ATA member, 10 years and an instructor.

At first there was the "basic" color belts. (White, Yellow, Green, Blue, and Red.) Since the number 9 is important in Korean culture, our late Grand Master added new belts between each of the "basic" belts. So now,

WHITE, orange, YELLOW, camo, GREEN, purple, BLUE, brown, RED.

As it was mentioned, all of our forms, basics, belts, etc. have a strong tie to our philosophy. Our students are like a pine tree in our philosophy. We already used the colors of the rainbow and none of the other colors really fit, thus "camo" belt, which ties in perfectly.


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## Chozen One (Sep 17, 2004)

Yeah my brother has a "Rambo" belt in ATA, he catches allota flack at my dojo when he visits since he has a "non_traditional belt"


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## Shu2jack (Sep 18, 2004)

If you look at the entire history of the martial arts, Belts are a very new thing. So I don't really understand why, or how, someone could get on another's case for having a non-"traditional" belt when belts are not really traditional in the first place.

Also, one of our Senior Masters once wrote a short story about when our late Grand Master announced the new color belts he was adding during a training camp around a camp fire. When our late Grand Master asked his most senior students what they thought, they all told him that they hated the "camo" belt. He then asked them if they had a better color, to which no one spoke up.

Function over Looks was what the Senior Master was talking about. Doesn't have to look good, it just has to effectively accomplish its purpose.


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## MichiganTKD (Sep 18, 2004)

Wouldn't a plain green belt accomplish the same thing? In traditional TKD, the green belt represents growth. Why would a camoflage belt express that idea better than a plain green belt? I'm not attacking ATA, BTW, just trying to figure out why a camo belt is needed.
On the other hand, in this age of American flag uniforms and doboks in every possible color combination, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


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## Shu2jack (Sep 19, 2004)

We have a green belt already. All of our belts represent growth. Each belt shows where you are in terms of growth.

For the camo belt specifically, our style of TKD is Songham, or pine tree in other words.

Our white belt represents purity- no knowledge of TKD (or our system)

Our orange belt represents that the seed has broken through the soil and sees the rays of light of the morning sun. (Orange is one of the colors of the sun rise.)

Our yellow belt represents that the young tree now completely emearged from the ground and can see the sun. (A "light" has been turned on and the students begins to see what TKD is about.)

Our CAMO belt represents that now that the tree has it's roots firmly in the ground it notices that is in a forest among other pine trees. It must now fight in order to grow. (At this level students need to spar to advance in rank and the forms start becoming much more difficult.)

Our GREEN belt represent that the young tree now has a full set of needles (thus, very green looking and not the scraggly thing it once was) and is continueing to grow along with the other trees. 

Sorry to go so indepth, but that is the break down of our beginning ranks and why we have a green and camo belt, there was a step that needed a color to represent it and Camo belt fit the best.


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## BrandiJo (Oct 6, 2004)

i did ATA for a while i got to camo befor i droped out ....now im back in another organization UTA this time


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## NW Boiler (Oct 7, 2004)

Shu2jack,

Well said,  I belive that our Eternal Grandmaster once said that the fighting portion of TKD is just the tip of the iceberg, which leave the personal growth of the person training in TKD as the majority of what we teach.  Just my humble opinion, but I think many here are missing the big picture.  To become a good fighter is one thing, but to become a solid individual that is a good fighter is a completely different concept.  The later is the jist of Eternal Grandmasters (and Grandmasters) vision.


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## Marginal (Oct 7, 2004)

That, and testing for a new belt every month rakes in the dough.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 8, 2004)

> That, and testing for a new belt every month rakes in the dough.


I was a purple belt for 8 months, a brown belt for 2 years, and I hold my current rank of 2nd degree for about 4 years now. I have never been pushed to test, nor have my classmates. My instructor has been forcing me to wait to test for 3rd. While I agree that testing more often yields more money, I think money was only one of the benifits to making the change. After all, it is a buisness and our G.M. couldn't achieve his goal of helping others on a large scale if he didn't have the money to accomplish it. You get what you pay for.

Testings are not every month, but testing on a more regular basis and making more ranks on the road to black belt is very benifical, besides the fact that our late Grand Master wanted 9 color belts to match the 9 degrees of black belt. 3 and 9 are important numbers, so it seems fitting to have 9 color belts instead of 5.

1.) It spreads out all the techs. over all the belts. That way for 2+ months you are focusing heavily on one set of techniques, which the next rank will base it's techniques off of.

2.) It suits our culture more. We need to mark progress and our culture tends to have trobule waiting and doing things for the long term. By having more frequent testings a student can chart their progress, give them a short term goal, and force them to constantly train because the next possbility to advance is coming up and they need to get to a certain level in terms of skill in order to test. 

3.) Because of the increased number of belts, each level can focus on a certain aspect of forms and training.

White- The preparation and execution of techinques.
Orange- Add timing to the preparation and execution of techniques
Yellow- Add combinations and flow to the techniques.
Camo & Green- Add spin and reverse kicks into the equation
Purple & Purple- Add flow and rythem into the equation
Brown & Red- Putting everything together.

Each rank focuses on something new, or a new way of doing the same thing. Our black belts means we have mastered the basics and our rank system, forms, one-steps, sparring rules (as well as unoffcial rules), and material at each rank reflect that.

There are a few ATA schools I am ashamed of, but I would apprciate that people would learn an organization's system, ideology, and method before judging. I have been with the ATA for 10 years, I run a small club, I HAVE used what the ATA has taught me to defend myself, I know others who have only ATA training who have defended themselves (some of them earning their black belt with in 2 1/2 years.), and I could go on, but my post is already too long. 

I apologize, but just like we are tired of people harassing TKD without really knowing what TKD is about or capable of, my organization and myself take a lot of heat from people who complain that our art takes a lot of heat.


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## Marginal (Oct 8, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> I was a purple belt for 8 months, a brown belt for 2 years, and I hold my current rank of 2nd degree for about 4 years now. I have never been pushed to test, nor have my classmates. My instructor has been forcing me to wait to test for 3rd. While I agree that testing more often yields more money, I think money was only one of the benifits to making the change.



Depends. Color belts tend to have a high attrition rate, so hitting them early and often doesn't train them any better. Just gives them more belts. 



> 1.) It spreads out all the techs. over all the belts. That way for 2+ months you are focusing heavily on one set of techniques, which the next rank will base it's techniques off of.



Yess... But pretty much any form of TKD will introduce new material each gup rank regardless of whether or not a new belt's involved.



> I apologize, but just like we are tired of people harassing TKD without really knowing what TKD is about or capable of, my organization and myself take a lot of heat from people who complain that our art takes a lot of heat.



Only problem is I made the comment that I did based on what ATA members I know have told me over the past few years. It's not reflective of everyone in the org, but it seems like the focus is on money and expansion first and other things, like teaching certifications in stickfighting etc after a weekend seminar hint that the fighting's a distant second.


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## MichiganTKD (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't really have a problem with 9 degrees of color belt, and the system does make sense. I would have a problem with, say, 20 degrees of color belt. I'm sure some Instructors use it, and it is just a way to string students along and keep them paying monthly fees. Aside from the fact, too many color belt ranks makes black belt look unattainable. There is a problem with too many and too few. I think 6-9 is about right.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 8, 2004)

> Depends. Color belts tend to have a high attrition rate, so hitting them early and often doesn't train them any better. Just gives them more belts.





> Yess... But pretty much any form of TKD will introduce new material each gup rank regardless of whether or not a new belt's involved.


At the end of the day, yes, all it is is more belts. However I think students learn better with frequent testings. As a college student, and after talking to many other college students over the years, a good majority would prefer 10 littler tests compared to 4 big ones. This is because 4 big tests covers a lot of material you have to study and focus on. With 10 smaller, more frequent, tests you are breaking everything down further and focusing on smaller chunks to learn. It is easier to assimilate and understand. I think the same thing applies to the martial arts. 



> Only problem is I made the comment that I did based on what ATA members I know have told me over the past few years. It's not reflective of everyone in the org, but it seems like the focus is on money and expansion first and other things, like teaching certifications in stickfighting etc after a weekend seminar hint that the fighting's a distant second.


While I do not agree with everything the ATA is doing, or how they go about doing it, I do see what they are trying to do and why they are doing what they are doing. People, and members, are not seeing what they programs are or what they are trying to accomplish. 

Lets take the stick fighting certification for example. How do you introduce new material into the regular curriculum of a 250,000+ member organization? Getting all the instructors together for a long peroid of time to learn the weapon is impossible. So you have clinics to teach the instructors the basics at first and over the years expand on what they know. School owners are not allowed to teach anything unless they are certified to do so, so the the clinics "certify" the instructors to teach the basics they learned to their students. Through joint testings, our closed-tournaments, and over the years as the new material becomes second-nature our members should gain proficiency in the weapon.

So these weekend "certifications" are not teaching anyone to be deadly with a weapon in a just a few days. It is our HQ's way of teaching our instructors standardized material and giving them permission to teach it to the students so that to flows through the organization. After a decade or so our instructors and students (who are becoming instructors) are profiecent with the weapon. That is the theory anyway. But you just can't all of sudden make all of our 10,000+ instructors profiecent in a weapon and add new curriculum on the spot.


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## Marginal (Oct 8, 2004)

How does learning say, groundfighting in a two day seminar qualify you to teach anything useful? I could gain just as much useful and effective knowledge by reading a book on the subject. Who here is willing to consider me a qualified submission wrestling instructor simply based on the fact that I've read a book or two on the subject? You're not? How about if I tell you I read it at least *twice* a year?

Seems like the instructor and the student loses out in that bargin. One's paying for a certification that really confers no ability beyond being able to present their students a mofidied syallabus, the other's trying to apply techniques that may or may not be effective with no expert to guide them along. 

It also begs the question why is it necessary to introduce all these plug-ins? It's really not. It's just another way to make the product seem more attractive to the passerbys regardless of the actual value. It's not a question of creating a complete martial artist, it's a question of how many bullet points can be added to the brochures. Pure marketing. Just like the Black Belt Club, the Leadership club etc.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 10, 2004)

I am sorry you feel that way.

It seems you are missing the point of the clinics and what they actually are. It is a method of slowly introducing a new aspect of training into a already set curriculum in a large, international organization. It is not meant to make instructors qualified groundfighting instructors. This is what it is supposed to do;

Instructor A goes to a ground fighting clinic.

Instructor A learns the basic positions, escapes, and methods of tapping an opponent out. Instructor A gets permissions to show this material to his students.

Instructor A shows this material to his Jr. instructors and students. They take this new material and work on it by wrestling each other with little rules. (No eye gouging, groin pulling, biting, etc.)

Instructor A and students become familar and comfortable with ground fighting because they learn what is working and not working by using it against a fully resisting partner who is trying to tap you out.

Instructor A goes to other clinics or goes outside that ATA to learn more about groundfighting to add to his experience.

Instructor B (who was a color belt when instructor A started introducing this material) has now become an instructor. Being familar with ground fighting from coming up the ranks with it he is now able to instructor others in this field because of his personal experience with it.

Sorry for the long post and I am not being sarcasitc. This is how I learned what I know in ground fighting. It works, at least for me, because I have had the privilage of wrestling a 2 time state high school wrestling champ and a University of Michigan wrestler on a wrestling scholarship. No, they are not combat ground fighters, but they are good at what they do on the ground and I fared pretty decently. It tells me the ATA's program is working dispite the fact that I am a 1st generation product.

This is also how I learned the single stick. My instructor showed my TKD buddy and myself the stick basics. We then took our wooden sticks and had us swing at each other. One person had to block, counter, or evade the incoming strike and counter attack or disarm, which the other person and to counter and respond. This is how we became familar with the stick. 

I only say this because this is how the clinic program works. Instructors are shown and given permission to teach their Jrs. the basics. Then instructors and jrs. alike practice together in ALIVE training to learn what works, what doesn't work, how to modify techinques so it works for the individual, etc. Most people think we are saying instructors are certified once they attend the clinics. No, we are giving the instructors the basics to start from to start to become familar with a given area of fighting with their students. Once these students "grow up" they will be our generation that are certified weapon/ground fighting/what ever instructors in 10 years.

If you buy it or not, that is your choice. I don't fully buy it myself, but I haven't come up with a better solution for the ATA myself and the training works for me.


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## Hwoarang_tkd26 (Oct 11, 2004)

Wow!, lol
I feel extremely strange now, I am WTF and my particular school also uses the Camo belt (we already have a green belt, so we cant just replace it with that)


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## Mark70Z (Oct 13, 2004)

Shu:  Maybe you can help me.  I think there are "numerous" reasons why individuals dog the ATA.  It appears from your posts you are an exception to the rule within the ATA.  Maybe you could inform the GM of the perception and the "real" problems with the organization.

First I'd like to say I admired late GM Lee.  I met him a few time and he seemed like a really nice guy.  Also, from "everything" I read about him he was a wonderful person and martial artist.  Also, the current GM Lee seems to be along the same lines.  With that being said...maybe you could resond or at least make a brief comment on the following:

1.  Black Belts at the age of 7.  Not first degree but *2nd degree*!
2.  In Florida the schools I have been to have kids with black belts who can't punch or kick correctly.
3.  You are required to purchase their sparring gear.  It's all made by Macho, but you can only wear it with the ATA logo.  Also, they required the red gear first, then once you receive you BB you have to purchase the black.
4.  BB earning their belts in 1 1/2 - 2 years.
5.  Have to purchase all these weapons (stick, bo, kamas, nunchaus) and use them for "very" brief periods of time.  You "never" learn to really use the weapon.
6.  No explaination of the meaning to the forms, i.e. bunkai
7.  Contract for everything, BBC, Master Club, Leadership Team, etc.
8.  Group testing where "everyone" passes.
9.  Sooo many belts with sooo many stripes..all costing money.  The price continues to rise.
10.  To me...all about the money not the individual.

These are just a few of the problems.  Just like it was said...just a tip of the iceberg.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 13, 2004)

I'll answer the questions the best I can.

1. I agree to an extent. One has to ask himself what a black belt is. I have always viewed it as someone who has mastered the basics of the system. I have met many younger 2nd degrees who have better technique than me. Can I kick their butt? Of course, size counts. Can they beat the snot out of kids their own age if they _had_ to? No doubt in my mind they are capable, at least for the Jr. Black belts in my instructor's school. 

Many people agree that a black belt means having more than just physical qualities. One has to have discipline, respect, etc. Can a child have these things? Yes. Having a room fill of 20 children holding perfectly still and not talking, giggling, or anything until you give a command is impressive, especially for our culture. Can children fully understand what honor, respect, etc. is? I doubt it until they gain more world experience. Personally I would put the cap at 2nd degree for children since black belt is still young in terms of belts.

2. Flordia would be Senior Master Clark's territory. I am only a second degree and I will keep my opinions to myself. If you have questions I would suggest talking to him about it.

3. I was a black belt for 5 years and continued to wear the red gear until recently. As for being required to have ATA gear....1) Money thing 2) Uniformity. You wouldn't let your students wear a mix-mash of different uniforms in class would you? Then why would you let them do the same for sparring gear? Being para-military uniformity is a big thing.

4. How long do you think it should take to master the basics? I am attending the police academy and it only lasts 15 weeks. My ATA buddy went into the military and got through basic training a lot sooner than it took him to earn is black belt and he wasn't impressed with the army training. I think if the training is realistic and practical 1 1/2 years is enough time to gain a solid base.

5. I was never forced to buy all the weapons. They are required to test once a black belt, but I don't HAVE to test. I learned to use the stick. My friend and I grabbed our wooden ones and started swinging. Lots of bruises, some blood, and a good learning experence. Students have to practice outside of class to if they hope to master anything. That being said, it is the instructor's job to provide them with the basics and help them along with their training.

6. Can't comment on that one. I was taught the meaning of the forms. I have also gained much insight into the forms from teaching them. The meanings are on our form sheets that are, or were in some schools, passed out for free at each rank. 

7. When I opened up my club my instructor told me to sign my students up in a contract. The reason is if the parents decide not to pay, I have no legal document to back up my claim that he owes me. Also, it lets me know that this person will pay me X amount of dollars each month (which helps me since the school's income changes month to month and I need to know the bare min. I will have to pay bills and the like.) and that persons knows that I will be there. Now, if a person can't pay I am not going to turn him into a credit agency. One of my parents had their 5 kids enrolled. The mother home-schooled the kids and the father lost his job. They have no money to pay me even if I did turn them in and even then, why would I? They have 5 kids, they have more important things to worry about than TKD. The contract didn't help me, but it is something that is there to help protect me and the customer.

8. Bad school then. Two testings ago we had 7 people testing for a black belt rank. 5 failed. Last testing 4 people tested. 2 failed. My instructor failed his own son twice when he tested for his 1st degree. I can't vouch for the other schools, but there are good ones out there. Unfortunately large cities are perfect places for instructors looking to get in it just for the money and it is the large schools with the money have have a bigger voice.

9. Only 9 color belts and 9 ranks of black. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. If you are referring to the stripes I am thinking of, they don't cost money. As for increasing prices, what hasn't increased in price in the U.S. market?

10. To me: Saved my life and I have seen it do the same for others. I see instructors to do it for the love of teaching itself and for the kids. The system we have is a good one not only for student development, but for an organization as a whole, and creating a system so that an instructor is able to dedicate his entire life to TKD. The system can be, and is, abused like any other system. 

As for informing our GM, he knows and the other seniors know. My instructor told me to buy a blank heavy weight uniform when I asked permission to attend an open tournament because he didn't want me to take any uncalled for heat from others. He wanted me to be judged as a martial artist and not what people think of martial artists from an organization. The problem is people will have their opinions and perceptions and rarely will they change. You just have to do what is best for you. It is easier to judge and critize and judge with out taking time to truly understand someone or something. I could pick on other organizations, heck I could pick on your guy's individual schools, but I don't because I don't know you, what you do, or why you do it.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 13, 2004)

We can discuss this more indepth if you like, I am about to go on vacation for a week and my previous post was kind of rushed.


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## bignick (Oct 13, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> I'll answer the questions the best I can.
> 
> 1. I agree to an extent. One has to ask himself what a black belt is. I have always viewed it as someone who has mastered the basics of the system. I have met many younger 2nd degrees who have better technique than me. Can I kick their butt? Of course, size counts. Can they beat the snot out of kids their own age if they _had_ to? No doubt in my mind they are capable, at least for the Jr. Black belts in my instructor's school.
> 
> ...


let me just say that i think you are representing the ATA very well and have helped changed my perspective a bit...i was never negative towards the ATA, but i have seen some bad schools, from more than just the ATA...and it's good to see these kind's of posts...taekwondo in general has gotten a bit of a bad rap...

i just wanted to commend you on keeping your cool...a good portion of this thread has been critical of the ATA...and i'm not so sure I could be as respectful as you have been if someone were criticizing my school...


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## Marginal (Oct 13, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> I am sorry you feel that way.
> 
> It seems you are missing the point of the clinics and what they actually are. It is a method of slowly introducing a new aspect of training into a already set curriculum in a large, international organization. It is not meant to make instructors qualified groundfighting instructors. This is what it is supposed to do;
> 
> ...



The only problem there is that an instructor who does the bare minimum won't be presenting anything useful to their classes. The instructors that go above and beyond, who go outside the org to train are introducing a nonstandard array of techniques for their students to study (which doesn't introduce the techniques to the ATA as a whole regardless), and the instructors are PAYING the ATA for the privlidge of going outside the org to learn this new stuff properly. You have the equivalent of a white belt going back to teach ATA folks how to ground fight. 

Still smacks of including a product for marketing purposes over selling the actual product.



> Instructor B (who was a color belt when instructor A started introducing this material) has now become an instructor. Being familar with ground fighting from coming up the ranks with it he is now able to instructor others in this field because of his personal experience with it.



Does this instructor then also have to pay the ATA before he can include grappling on his syllabus? If so, that's just milking the cow.


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## Mark70Z (Oct 14, 2004)

Shu:

Sounds good.  Let me know when you return and we can discuss further.  Thanks so much for responding, but of course I have questions concerning your response.  I'll get with you on them when you return (have a great vacation!).


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## Shu2jack (Oct 19, 2004)

It was a short week, but I am back and feeling a bit refreshed. Any who, I am ready for another round of questions Mark.

bignick@ Thank you for your kind words. I am glad I could changes your perspective a little. I just wish I was more articulate so I could better respond to this thread.

Marginal@



> The only problem there is that an instructor who does the bare minimum won't be presenting anything useful to their classes. The instructors that go above and beyond, who go outside the org to train are introducing a nonstandard array of techniques for their students to study (which doesn't introduce the techniques to the ATA as a whole regardless), and the instructors are PAYING the ATA for the privlidge of going outside the org to learn this new stuff properly. You have the equivalent of a white belt going back to teach ATA folks how to ground fight.


You are assuming everyone knows something about ground fighting, even without formal training. Myself, and MANY students, did not or do not know what the "In the Guard" position is, how to tap someone out, or many other things a lot of people (or wrestlers) take for granted. 

I often have to tell beginners new to ground fighting that if they are mounted on someone they are SUPPOSED to drop their body weight on the opponent so he doesn't escape, or that for the Guard you need to wrap your legs ABOVE their waist or else you lose control, or if you want to roll someone over you need to trap the leg and arm on one side or else they can prevent you from flipping them. This is what the clinics teach. The basic basics. I sometimes forget that not everyone knows how to make a proper fist in order to punch because I have been in the MA for so long it is natural. Same thing with ground fighting. Yes, instructors can go outside the organization, and it is a good thing, but the ATA is trying to set up it's own program so eventually we don't have to. It is impossible for 5 Senior Masters and Masters who have been ground fighting a long time to teach everyone in this organization. 



> Does this instructor then also have to pay the ATA before he can include grappling on his syllabus? If so, that's just milking the cow.


No, I teach my students at my club weapons, ground fighting, etc. and I am not certified in anything. My instructor is, he taught me, and I have been practicing the material for years.

Now, if I ever become big enough in my region to host a tournament, then either one of my students or myself needs to be certified in a weapon in order to hold a competition for that weapon in my tournament. The host needs to be certified in the material under the ATA in order to have the material in a closed ATA-sanctioned tournament.


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## Marginal (Oct 20, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> Marginal@
> 
> You are assuming everyone knows something about ground fighting, even without formal training. Myself, and MANY students, did not or do not know what the "In the Guard" position is, how to tap someone out, or many other things a lot of people (or wrestlers) take for granted.



I was more thinking, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing". Think of it this way. Take a group of people who know nothing about TKD, show them how to properly do the various kicks, blocks, and punches etc over one weekend. Now send them out to teach TKD to wrestlers. 

Doesn't that strip your gears?


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## Mark70Z (Oct 21, 2004)

Shu:

Hope you had a great vacation!  As I said earlier you schools seems like the exception to the rule in ATA.  Maybe we can go point by point...  Just so you know I'd like to see the ATA grow, but I'd like to see it as an organization with integrity and honor.  

1.  Second Degree Black Belts -  There are 2nd Degree Black Belts in the ATA organization at 7 years of age.  To me this is crazy.  It's my view that 7 is too young for a first degree.  I too have seen many of the young people with really good technique, but not the ones this young.  There are numerous BB in the ATA schools in Jax. that can't punch or kick correctly. 

Personal expierence -  My son received his BB at age 10.  They tried to rush him through the testings.  He did not know a single form all the way through until he was a Blue Belt (the only reason he learned this was he wanted to start to compete in tournaments).  Also, they discouraged him from going to any tournament other than the closed ATA tourneys.  In "several" testings he did not know what to do, didn't know all the forms or one steps and still passed with flying colors.  It was sad, but at 10 and a BB he didn't even know how to punch correctly.

Maybe I equate karate wrong.  I kind think of it "like" a church organization.  If the organization your church belongs to believes different doctrines than the local church you attend, why is that church still in the organization.


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## The Kai (Oct 21, 2004)

Mark70Z said:
			
		

> Shu:
> 
> 
> 1.
> ...


If it was this apparent, why did you not speak up?  If someone can pass a test with flying colors without even being prepared something is wrong.  If you can see your kid can probably 'feel'it.
Todd


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## Mark70Z (Oct 21, 2004)

Kai:

Just so you know, I did speak up and told the instructors what I felt (many times).  Just remember, the ATA organization has "contracts" that you can't get out of (several people at his school tried, to no avail).  When I signed up for the BB Club, or Masters Club (can't remember which) he was an orange belt, I didn't know they would just "give" them belts and test them all the time and pass them each time.  The contract period went until he attained a BB.  I paid the money, so he was going until the contract ended.  Most of the people who signed up once they realized it was about the money they quit coming, but still had to pay the contract price.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 21, 2004)

> I was more thinking, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing". Think of it this way. Take a group of people who know nothing about TKD, show them how to properly do the various kicks, blocks, and punches etc over one weekend. Now send them out to teach TKD to wrestlers.
> 
> Doesn't that strip your gears?


What do you mean exactly by, "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"?

How does what strip my gears?

One can not learn a few moves from a TKD instructor, then go off and teach TKD. Those basic moves are found in every other "hard" style that teaches fighting in a standing range. (Karate, etc.), so it wouldn't really be TKD they are teaching. TKD itself is a system values, stances, strikes, blocks, movements, philosophy, etc. that takes years to fully learn and even longer to understand and figure out how it all fits together. This is because not everything taught can be directly applied to self-defense because it serves a different purpose. Because of this, TKD requires a knowledgeable and quality instructor who _knows_ the system in order to teach it.

So do I have a problem with someone learning a few moves, then go on and show others calling it TKD (Or karate, or Kung fu, or what ever)? Yes, because they are not teaching TKD, they are teaching striking techinques.

Would I have a problem with an instructor who is qualified and knowledgeable in his art (wrestling) coming to me and having me show him some basic strikes for fighting in a standing range so he can show some of his students? 

No. If this instructor is willing to spend 25 hours learning how to safely throw a punch, a hook, a elbow strike, a knee strike, a palm heel, a front kick, and a side kick then I have no problem with it. Because this instructor is already qualified and skilled in his range of fighting and he is looking for techniques in a different range so he is able to defend himself if caught out of his element. Then he can go back and practice these against a heavy bag or in training with his students.

The same applies to what the ATA is doing. Even if it is a 2 day course, I want an instructor to teach me the terminology, how to properly set myself in various positions, and how to perform a few techniques. This way I can go back and wrestle other guys, have a clue about what I am doing, figure what works or how to make something work, and have a base to start from. Do I have a seasoned ground fighter to teach me? No, but I can train "alive" with others, practice what we have been shown, try different things, and get comfortable with ground fighting so that if we ever have to wrestle someone in self-defense are are not flapping around on the ground with no clue.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 21, 2004)

> 1. Second Degree Black Belts - There are 2nd Degree Black Belts in the ATA organization at 7 years of age. To me this is crazy. It's my view that 7 is too young for a first degree. I too have seen many of the young people with really good technique, but not the ones this young. There are numerous BB in the ATA schools in Jax. that can't punch or kick correctly.
> 
> Personal expierence - My son received his BB at age 10. They tried to rush him through the testings. He did not know a single form all the way through until he was a Blue Belt (the only reason he learned this was he wanted to start to compete in tournaments). Also, they discouraged him from going to any tournament other than the closed ATA tourneys. In "several" testings he did not know what to do, didn't know all the forms or one steps and still passed with flying colors. It was sad, but at 10 and a BB he didn't even know how to punch correctly.


I believe the ATA's website has the contact information for our HQ. I recommend that you contact them and inform them of what is going on. Since I have not witnessed it I can not, and will not, accuse other instructors of wrong doing without witnessing it. You have witnessed it though.

My instructor's school has never had a 7 year old 2nd degree. Because of how we set up the program, 9 or 10 is the youngest possible and those two kids could beat the snot out of kids their age. These kids know how to kick and punch and they know all of the forms. They had to know all of the forms to pass their black belt test.

We have this tiny 8 year old little girl who has tested for her black belt 4 times. We have failed her 4 times. We have a set standard and we will not lower that standard. Both of her older brothers have already passed, but she keeps trying and I know one day she will make an excellent black belt and a sucessful person because of her perserverance and her unwillingness to accept defeat. I don't think of failing a student as a negitive thing. I think of it as a test of character after the belt test and that little girl is passing where I have seen a lot of people fail in life.

Sorry that I am not really answering your questioning. My instructor's area (his school and his instructor's schools) are growing with integrity and honor. I just can't speak for others, but I do know that there are many other schools out there like this.


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## Mark70Z (Oct 22, 2004)

Shu:

Thanks for the response.  It definitely sounds like your school is run totally different than the ATA schools here in Jax., or in the Florida area in general.  Also, I'm sure your aware that there are 2nd Degree BB who are 7 years of age, not just in the Jax. area, but in ATA organization around the U.S.  It sounds like your program within your school is set up different than the ATA program, since you will not allow a 2nd Degree BB until 9 or 10 (which in my opinion is too young also).

We were going to keep my son in the ATA, but it just didn't work out.  I'll kinda give you a summary of what happened.  We had a contract up to a 2nd Degree Recommended.  About a year later his instructor asked us to sign another contract (Jr. Instructor, Asst. Instructor...something like that since he wanted my son to learn to teach) and stated it would take him to third degree recommended.  He said he would give us a great deal and this is the last contract we would have to sign for a long time since he couldn't test for third degree until 15 or 16 (he was around 9 at that time).  So we asked our son if this is what he wanted to do and he said yes.  About three years later his instructor (who was a different instructor, his other instuctor moved back to Argentina) had a meeting with us and told us they were going through the contracts and ours is expired.  We told him we signed a contract till third degree BB.  He said he would get with his boss and get back with us.  The next class he said our contract is expired.  I stated that nowhere on the contract is there an expiration date.  He stated that it was a three year contract, and was told it is expired, so it's expired.  I wrote to Bill Clark explaining in detail the problem, with no response.


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## The Kai (Oct 22, 2004)

In this area (midwest) the experiences with Ata is mostly bad.  Young 2nd or 3rd degree Black Belts, no foundation what so ever.  It has become so obvious even the general public now scoffs at the whole Black Belt Rank!  Don't expect to much from Bill Clark

Todd


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## Marginal (Oct 22, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> What do you mean exactly by, "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"?



When one learns something and presumes competence in their technique, they think they can then apply it in stress situations with no problem. Should they ever hit a situation where they actually test that knowledge, it has a very good chance of coming up lacking. That's just dangerous. 



> How does what strip my gears?



The idea of someone teaching TKD after a weekend seminar. 



> One can not learn a few moves from a TKD instructor, then go off and teach TKD. Those basic moves are found in every other "hard" style that teaches fighting in a standing range. (Karate, etc.), so it wouldn't really be TKD they are teaching. TKD itself is a system values, stances, strikes, blocks, movements, philosophy, etc.



Evidently, it does strip your gears. 



> TKD requires a knowledgeable and quality instructor who _knows_ the system in order to teach it.



But stick fighting, grappling etc does not... Gotcha. 



> So do I have a problem with someone learning a few moves, then go on and show others calling it TKD (Or karate, or Kung fu, or what ever)? Yes, because they are not teaching TKD, they are teaching striking techinques.



Well, TKD is a striking system. As long as that instructor's practicing "alive", and perhaps recites a few creedos before each class,  surely they're producing the same end result. 



> Would I have a problem with an instructor who is qualified and knowledgeable in his art (wrestling) coming to me and having me show him some basic strikes for fighting in a standing range so he can show some of his students?



Would you feel comfortable with them thinking that they'd be able to become proficient with TKD techniques after one weekend class?



> Then he can go back and practice these against a heavy bag or in training with his students.



It's inadequate.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 22, 2004)

> When one learns something and presumes competence in their technique, they think they can then apply it in stress situations with no problem. Should they ever hit a situation where they actually test that knowledge, it has a very good chance of coming up lacking. That's just dangerous.


I agree. Presuming competence in their technique and thinking they can apply it at anytime easily is dangerous. 



> Evidently, it does strip your gears.


If you mean, "make me upset" when you say "strip my gears". Then, no. I was just saying that it simply isn't TKD, or Karate, or what ever they are teaching because the systems are more than just striking.



> But stick fighting, grappling etc does not... Gotcha.


I said that wrong and that quote is taken a little out of context. While I think sticking fighting, grappling, TKD, knife fighting, etc. requires an instructor, I believe a set system like TKD requires an instructor more so than wrestling. Which is not really a positive.

TKD has one-steps, forms, board breaking, etc. That kind of stuff is not directly applicable to self-defense. Those things serve a different purpose and requires an instructor who knows how the pieces fit together and what they are for.

With grappling, or boxing, or stick fighting you can "get by" with just boxing or grappling with a partner full speed and become decent in that range of fighting. That is because everything you do and are shown can be directly applied against someone. Having a coach to watch you and see what you are doing wrong or can improve on helps greatly and is recommended.

That said, I know a lot of people who wrestle pretty good and I know a lot of people I wouldn't want to fight standing up even though they don't have formal training. They had friends that always beat up on each other, a "rougher" life, or just practice with others. They learned by simply doing it. Could they be better with formal training? Yes, but they know how to apply what they do know effectively, if not efficently.



> Well, TKD is a striking system. As long as that instructor's practicing "alive", and perhaps recites a few creedos before each class, surely they're producing the same end result.


No, not really.



> Would you feel comfortable with them thinking that they'd be able to become proficient with TKD techniques after one weekend class?


I would feel comfortable with them knowing they have a base to start from and expand upon.



> It's inadequate.


It is? Most students train in class 2-3 times a week, which is about 2-3 hours a week with an instructor. Most students probably spend time outside of class training. Let's assume 1 hour a day. That is 7 hours a week training without the guidence of an expert. Now multiply that by 5 years. A 5 year student will spend a LOT more time practicing what he knows alone or with a partner WITHOUT his qualified instructor.

Personally for me, I learned the most when I studied the forms, or practiced techniques alone at my own pace, or sparred fellow students after class using our own rules, or weight lifted, or worked on a heavy bag, and other little things like that. My instructor helped show me my weakness and what I need to focus on to improve so I can go back home and work on that. He showed me knew techniques to practice and train with, but in the end a majority of my training was done against another person or alone in my basement. I suspect many other MA are like this.

So if this is the case, what is wrong with someone experienced in grappling showing someone the basics so that they can "go home" and practice their techniques. Instead of going back to that clinic and showing that instructor where they are at, you go to your partner and wrestle him full speed to find out what is working and what is not. Have a 3rd person watching you to see what you need to work on.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 22, 2004)

I hope that all made sense. I get from vacation, and I have to work 12 hour shifts along with 5 college classes. So obviously cohearancy is a problem at times.  

Anyway Marginal, we just keep going back and forth. I'll just say that the previous post was my final comments on the subject. We'll just have to agree to disagree or something like that.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 23, 2004)

Mark@

Like I said, I have my own opinions about the schools in Flordia. I am sorry that I can't really help you with that situation.

Unless you have any objections, I believe you have other questions, though if there is anything else on this subject you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to.


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## Mark70Z (Oct 25, 2004)

Shu:

Maybe most of these issues are problems within the Florida schools.  I read in other posts some of these problems seem to exist in other states, but hopefully it's just minimal elsewhere.

Let me ask you a question on the gear.  It was required in his school to purchase "all" the gear, including weapons, from the ATA.  Is this typical?  After some time I stated to purchase items from the internet and paying a lot less for the items.  I could tell they didn't like this, but never said anything directly to me.  I just didn't feel like paying almost twice as much for these items.


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## The Kai (Oct 25, 2004)

It is a money making organization period, you maight find isolated bright spots of non greed here and there but the org is set up to make a ton o money from new students

Todd


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## Mark70Z (Oct 25, 2004)

Kai:

Seems that way, but I was hoping it was just isolated in Florida, and a few isolated instances elsewhere around the U.S.  Sounds like Shu's Dojahng may be an exception to the rule....


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## bcorner (Oct 25, 2004)

Im a BB Recommended in the ATA.  I am testing for 1st degree in December. I have been doing Taekwando 5 days a week for the most part. I also participate in Krav Maga (www.kravmaga.com) which is supported by Senior Master Clark in Jacksonville FL.  I do Krav Maga 2-3 days a week.  I have been doing martial arts not stop for over two years. And I love it. When I was a kid I also did judo.

 Someone complained about most black belts passing the mid terms and exams.  I dont know how other clubs do it but our Instructor will not let us take the tests unless he knows we will pass.

 In fact we just had a 'practice' test this past Saturday.  Our official mid term is in a couple of weeks.  We will be tested by our Instructor (4th degree Mr. Infantino) plus two guest 5th degree's.  We get tested on our Kata (form), basic knowledge, board breaking, and test sparring (no contact).

 Since joining the ATA I have gone from 280-290 to 185 lbs.  I am also LBK (left below knee) amputee.

 I also practice along with my wife and two children.  I have made sure that we all are going to graduate to first degree at the same time.

 I have never let my injury slow me down.  In fact most people never even know I have a fake leg. Doing Taekwando has really proven to me that I can do anything any able bodied person can.  It takes a bit more effort on the left spin kicks and many of the jumps.  But to date I have been able to overcome all obstacles.  I have even been able to compete against others at national competitions and place in weapons two years straight!  According to others I have been an inspiration to others. Even able bodied.  I mean... If I can do reverse jump spin crescent kicks with a fake leg and be 41 years of age... then anybody can do this discipline.

 I know that I have digressed in this thread. I hope that I have not offended anyone. (Thread etiquette and all.)


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## The Kai (Oct 26, 2004)

I guess the first question I have is why if you are a active martial artist do you need to take self defenses classes?  First and foremost martial arts are sold as self confidence courses, via physical confidence (being able to defend yourself).  So you study a martial art that has nothing to do with fighting?

The second thing is how can you all be "graduating" (I assume you mean testing for black) at the same time?  Any Martial Art is a individual journey, with different rates of learning.  To set up your graduation date is a little 'contrived'
Just a few questions
Please don't get me wrong I am happy you found a sport to make you happy
Todd


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## Mark70Z (Oct 26, 2004)

I basically have the save questions as Kai.  How does one ensure that you will graduate at the same time?  Each individual works at their own pace; if you are truly testing it would be at different times, and in the unlikely instance it happens to fall at the same time one may pass and the other fail.  Unless it goes with what I was saying, is that "all" pass.  I don't see how an instuctor can, as you put it "he knows we will pass."  I can see an instuctor going over the material and making sure your efficient at it, but not knowing you will pass.  To me it's not a test if you already basically pass before you even take a test.

I do want to congratulate you on the weight loss and also not letting your injury slow you down.  Do you compete in the ATA tournaments?  If so, is it in the Special Ability or the group competition?  Also, do you compete in open tournaments?


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## Shu2jack (Oct 26, 2004)

> Let me ask you a question on the gear. It was required in his school to purchase "all" the gear, including weapons, from the ATA. Is this typical? After some time I stated to purchase items from the internet and paying a lot less for the items. I could tell they didn't like this, but never said anything directly to me. I just didn't feel like paying almost twice as much for these items.


I don't know if it is typical throughout the ATA. Originally the Black Belt/Master club program was to focus mainly on weapons when our Protech and regular curriculum was seperate. At that time wooden weapons were the training tool, so you could pick them up anywhere. Due to spectator safety and that students where messing up their knuckles pretty badly when training with each other, we switched to foam in class and while competeing.

Now Protech is a part of the regular curriculum and competition, so I guess a lot of instructors include weapons as part of the package deal for joining the Black Belt/Master Club since weapons is what the main training is anyway, no sense in joining if you don't have a weapon to train with.

As for having to buy weapons through the ATA, all weapons and gear must be ATA gear at tournaments and testings. Our instructors get in trobule when our students do not have the proper gear, so we don't like it generally when students buy their gear online. I tell my students that I don't care what type of gear and weapons they use in class to train. I still use wooden weapons personally. I just won't let them compete or test without the "proper" gear just like I won't let my students wear the "proper" uniform for training in my club.



> It is a money making organization period, you maight find isolated bright spots of non greed here and there but the org is set up to make a ton o money from new students


Yes, the organization is set up so instructors can earn a decent living teaching TKD. Some instructors take it too far. Outside of that, what is wrong with earning a living from teaching TKD?

bcorner@ Thank you for sharing your story. I know of a lot of people the ATA has helped and whose lives the ATA has changed for the better. It has changed my life. M


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## terryl965 (Oct 27, 2004)

Well I have listen and read and I know is an inside/ outside perspective: Back in the 90's I join a ATA school to start back up formal training within side of a week the instructor brought out a booklet listing all the pro's of the ATA which was fine but, in every prositive there has to be some negatives he said no not here in the ATA and then the contracts,equipment and all the little things added up the a whole lot of money.The point is when I started to look for a place to train again I explained to the instructor that I had no attention in joining a Black Belt club already had my Belt then I told him no contract, he was fine with all of that then within a couple of weeks started to hit me with everything. The fact in the matter is I knew more then him and at that time I believed I was looking for maturity not pocket gauging! Now I know some pretty nice guys that run ATA schools and they are - well great instructors and make alot of money doing the same thing I do teach TKD I personally think ATA will cater more to the upper middle class of student where they can make there money, but a few instructors can put out some high quality gifted athletes, not just the Mc Dojo types. BOTTOM LINE GOOD AND BAD IN EVERY ASPECT OF MARTIAL ART WEATHER TKD OR KARATE. Have a great day and GOD BLESS AMERICA


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## The Kai (Oct 27, 2004)

> weapons were the training tool, so you could pick them up anywhere. Due to spectator safety and that students where messing up their knuckles pretty badly when training with each other, we switched to foam in class and while competeing.


Why are you abshing your hands? Cannot you not correct your technique instead of substitting a toy in its place?



> Now Protech is a part of the regular curriculum and competition, so I guess a lot of instructors include weapons as part of the package deal for joining the Black Belt/Master Club since weapons is what the main training is anyway, no sense in joining if you don't have a weapon to train with.


How amny programs are running at the school and how much do they cost?

.





> I just won't let them compete or test without the "proper" gear just like I won't let my students wear the "proper" uniform for training in my club.


What is a proper uniform? Durability? Color? There is plent of quality Gi's out there why pay more for it?


> Yes, the organization is set up so instructors can earn a decent living teaching TKD. Some instructors take it too far. Outside of that, what is wrong with earning a living from teaching TKD?


I don't have a problem with making money off the martial arts it is just how it is done that bothers me

bcorner@ Thank you for sharing your story. I know of a lot of people the ATA has helped and whose lives the ATA has changed for the better. It has changed my life. M[/QUOTE]


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## Mark70Z (Oct 27, 2004)

Shu:

As far as the gear goes I understand trying to be uniform within the organization.  I don't really like purchasing red gear and then "making" you purchase black gear just because he became a BB.  Also, I don't think it's right to pay almost twice as much for gear/weapons, just because someone stamps ATA on it.  I was told that I needed to purchase the foam kamas, he never used them in class, and then they wanted me to buy the metal/wood ones for demo's (I bought them online for over 1/2 the price).  I purchased the nunchaku, then had to purchase another set because they changed the type (I guess the older ones had a problem with the plastic coming off the ends).  Just a few examples we had when we were going as far as the karate gear.

I really don't have a problem with a karate instructor making money.  To me the problem is withholding, or not giving you needed information up front.  You pay 2k for the BB Club, and then you have the testing fees, purchase all the "required" weapons (kamas, stick, nunchaku, bo...almost twice as much money for ATA items, and really never learning how to use them properly), gear (sparring gear - twice because you'll need the red then the black, chest protector..also more money with the ATA stamped on the Macho gear), paying for all the special classes they push you to attend (ground fighting, sword, etc.), push you to sign up for a Master Program, then Instructor Program, in house tournaments (which were $35, and gave a $1.00 metal for best BB spirit, etc.), different uniform for demos, they even wanted us to purchase different shirt, pants, and shoes to test in!!!  Just of the few things they "never" discuss when they are signing you up.

Look I really don't have a problem with them saying we are a sport karate school, but they don't.  We went in thinking our son was going to learn to defend himself, and he didn't learn to defend himself.  I think he got some positive things, like excersize, and making friends.  I really don't regret putting him in the ATA, but knowing all the things I know now if I had to do it all over again we would take a different path...


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## The Kai (Oct 27, 2004)

2,000 for a Black belt test?  Wow!  Do you want to buy a bridge too?


Imho everyone one who enters your school should be part of your black belt club, not just those who canm pay and pay and pay.
Weapons, ground fighting, all part of the program.  It is called the* Martial Arts* 
for a reason.  Sooner or later the Ata and similiar organizations will get in trouble for the wholesale fleecing of the public (Why would you ever need a seperate uniform and gear for a test?) and give the entire industry a bad name.  Well at least we can fight our way out (well some of us)
Todd


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## Shu2jack (Oct 27, 2004)

> Why are you abshing your hands? Cannot you not correct your technique instead of substitting a toy in its place?


One of our instructors used to teach PPCT and baton techniques to the local police department. With a police baton, or stick, it is called "aggressive blocking". The attacker swings at you with a stick or knife and instead of meeting stick against stick (or weapon), you are striking the arm or hand coming at you that is holding the stick. If you hit your partner's arm or hand with you stick while they are swinging at you, then your timing and strike IS correct. 

Unfortunately, wooden weapons (especially our old ones) could easily crack arms, knees, or skulls if swing with any kind of speed. So as you could imagine, some hands were injured. On occassions our black belts would actually break the wooden sticks just doing the stick counts at full speed. This is why we switched to foam. Sticks were good for stick counts, but when practicing counter and striking, you needed foam to avoid serious injury when actually striking at your partner with the intent of really hitting him/her.



> How amny programs are running at the school and how much do they cost?


Just the black belt/master club. My instructor charges $50/mo. for regular classes and I charge $40/mo. I don't run the black belt or master club at my dojo as of yet and I am not sure how much it costs at my instructor's school. I was younger when I started, so my parents paid for it and when I got older and became an instructor I wasn't charged for the program anymore.



> What is a proper uniform? Durability? Color? There is plent of quality Gi's out there why pay more for it?


A proper uniform is a all white uniform that is either completely blank or has the ATA logo on the back. The top isn't the olympic TKD top, but the "double tie" top. I agree, why pay more. How ever, being a semi-military organization there will be a certain amount of uniformity and the above criteria are the only restrictions I place on uniforms. So my students can buy their uniforms from some where else. However, if you are a black belt I expect the student to have the ATA uniform.


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## Shu2jack (Oct 27, 2004)

Mark, I hate to say it, but you went to a bad school then. Like I said, I was a black belt for 5 years and used red gear. I know how expensive the weapons are. I have 2 wooden sticks, 2 foam sticks, 2 chain nunchucks, and 2 foam nunchucks. I have the wooden sticks and chain nunchucks for personal training and demos, but I was never forced to partake in demos. I bought the foam weapons after the ATA made the switch to foam weapons.

I really don't know what else to say, except to apologize on behalf of the organization. I have never forced a student or parent to sign up for anything and neither has my instructor. If the student wants to do it, that is fine. If not, there is no since in forcing the issue because we would be wasting everyone's time. I mentioned in my previous post that I do not run the black belt/master club. My students want to start learning weapons, but I am renting a building through the local school system and can not get the extra time to start a BB/MC. I have made my students a deal. If they all want to learn a weapon, then they need to get together with each other and all buy weapons. Then I will start instructing on the weapon in class, but I will not force everyone to buy a $25 weapon and start teaching material that not everyone is interested in that is not part of the main curriculum. If a student wants to learn a weapon on their own, then they need to buy it, come to me, and we will spend 20 minutes before or after each class to work on it-free of charge.


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## The Kai (Oct 27, 2004)

```
One of our instructors used to teach PPCT and baton techniques to the local police department. With a police baton, or stick, it is called "aggressive blocking". The attacker swings at you with a stick or knife and instead of meeting stick against stick (or weapon), you are striking the arm or hand coming at you that is holding the stick. If you hit your partner's arm or hand with you stick while they are swinging at you, then your timing and strike IS correct. 

Unfortunately, wooden weapons (especially our old ones) could easily crack arms, knees, or skulls if swing with any kind of speed. So as you could imagine, some hands were injured. On occassions our black belts would actually break the wooden sticks just doing the stick counts at full speed. This is why we switched to foam. Sticks were good for stick counts, but when practicing counter and striking, you needed foam to avoid serious injury when actually striking at your partner with the intent of really hitting him/her.
```
 
Just a thought most systems of Escrima the "blocking' motion is again correctly done to the hands of your opponent.  Since, Escrima'ists spend a lot of time working the sticks they have substituted hitting to the stick with the understanding of the correct target.   This allows you to practice with the sticks more, with greater control.  Also allow you to deal with a strong attack, after all who is gonna swing that hard on you knowing thier knuckles will bebashed?
Not realistic, do you practice your one steps or self defense by driving your fists through your partners head?

BTW How much for the offical ATA black belt uniform??
Todd


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## Mark70Z (Oct 27, 2004)

Shu:

Thanks for the response.  Do me a favor and just "be aware" of these type things going on within the organization and try to change them if you can.  Like I mentioned before, it sounds like you guys do things totally different within your school.  If you were located in Jacksonville, I'd go to your school...

I believe the last ATA gi we purchased was $110.00.  Just so you know, it was a nice gi, and I was totally satisfied with the type of uniform.  It had the ATA logo's on the back w/my son's name on it, all embroyed (Is that spelled right?!?)  We had to sow on the rest of the patches.  I don't know if this is the price currently charged, but like I said the gi's are nice.

Also, just so you know the 2K was for the BB "Club".  This is when you get to an orange belt there is a contract that you go until you become a BB.  This was not the charge for testing.


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## BrandiJo (Oct 27, 2004)

I need to ask Mr Giles about some of this, back when i was in ATA i dont remember it being this bad, cus there is no way my paretns could aford that i should see him when im back home for xmas break ...but i guess things do change and iv been outta ata for about 10 years ( took it when i was about 8ish)


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## MichiganTKD (Oct 27, 2004)

When I was a color belt many years ago, my parents grumbled enough about the monthly tuition fee, which was not bad considering what other schools charged. 
If I had presented them with a black belt contract my Instructor wanted me to sign for $2K, I would have been looking a new school. No way would they have paid that. Anyway, how can you charge students $2K or more for a black belt in 2-3 years when they don't know what they'll be doing in 2-3 years? This is one reason why I don't like contracts. How can you have a student commit to class for a lengthy period of time when he/she doesn't know what will happen in that time? How do you know they won't a. get a job transfer b. get sick or injured c. lose interest?


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## Galvatron (Oct 27, 2004)

I don't know how the ATA schools around here stay in business. Here in Jacksonville, "Senior Chief Master Guru" (or whatever he's calling himself) Bill Clark runs no less than 15 schools. Some of his schools are within 5 miles of each other!
I recently had a friend of mine go into one of his local schools to get prices for me...she took her 5 year old daughter in with her. The prices she was qouted came out to just under $200.00 per month with the monthly (yes I said monthly) test fees. When she told the instructor that she needed to consult her husband first, he wanted her to call from the school so he could talk to him also, when she said no he then wanted her to give him a post-dated check to hold! That's the kind of stuff you expect at a used car lot, not a Martial Arts school. 
I've met (and taught) more than a few former ATA students, and they all tell me basically the same story: Long contracts, high prices, little substance.
Perhaps it's different in other parts of the country, I couldn't say. All I know that Bill Clark gives Taekwondo a very bad name around these parts.


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## Mark70Z (Oct 27, 2004)

We were personally told when my son was an orange belt that we either had to sign up for the BB Club or he could no longer train.  At the time I didn't know anything about the MA schools, so me and my wife after some discussion with the karate teacher, decided to sign him up.

1.  They told us at the time it would take a minimum of four years to get his BB.  Of course we found out later a person could get it in 1 1/2 - 2 years.  The contract did not expire, so we thought this was not too bad of price for 4 years worth of training.  They said even if it took longer, we would not have to pay anymore, it was up till he received his BB.

2.  They have stipulations in the contract for moving.  Just so you know, they have schools "all over" the U.S. so I'm sure they would say you can go to one of them.

3.  Get sick or injured.  I'm sure there are outs for these on the contracts w/ doctors verification.  Shu I'm sure could give you more on this.

4. Lose interest.  Your out of luck.  You pay anyway...no way out.  There were a few who tried at our school, and no luck getting out of paying.  There are numerous kids that signed up for the BB Club who came a few times and never came back.  

Just so you know, they did give you a choice on the contract to pay monthly, quarterly, etc.


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## Mark70Z (Oct 27, 2004)

Galvatron:

I'm from Jax. FL also.  Just so you know I believe Bill Clark has "at least" 20 schools within the Florida area.  This does not include other states.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just wanted you to know.

Also, after your friends daughter received her orange belt, then they would want you to sign up for the BB Club, or the Master Club, or the Instructor Club, or whatever else Club they have now (at least that's how it was early this year).  Of couse the testing fees would still be there.  Also, all the other "extras" you would "have to" get...

Your are right again, long contracts, high prices, and little substance.

Do you teach in Jax.?  Would be interesting to know where if you do.


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## Galvatron (Oct 27, 2004)

Geez How many "Clubs" do they have??? How much do these various clubs cost? I saw the BB Club already, but I wonder about the other ones...

I presently teach at the YMCA in the Mandarin area, I also teach two people privately.


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## Mark70Z (Oct 28, 2004)

They have several different ones.  I believe the Master Club allows you to go to some specialized classes and you get a gold stripe (or whatever color it is now) through the middle of your belt, and the Instructor Club, I guess you learn to teach Taekwondo.  Who knows what else they have now.  I know you had to be a BB to be in the Instructor Club when my son started, now I believe it can be almost any rank.  I think the standards are getting less and less so they can get more money out of people quicker.  Typically they charge you first for the BB Club, which goes to 1st Degree, then they try to talk you into the Master Club, which I think goes to 2nd Degree Recommended, then the Leadership/Instructor Club, which typically goes to 3rd Degree Recommended (at least that was our personal experience).  If I recall correctly I think each one was around 2K. 

The scenario you gave earlier about your friend going in to check on prices doesn't suprise me a bit.  I've seen it throughout the time we were going to the ATA school.  I live just south of Mandarin, so I know where the YMCA is on San Jose.  We went to the school just behind the Outback Steak House on San Jose.  We were involved with the ATA for 6 years, so if you have any questions, I think we have enough real, on hand, personal experience with the ATA.  I appears that if these FL school were run like the ATA ones that Shu goes to we'd still be there.

What style do you teach at the YMCA?


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## Galvatron (Oct 28, 2004)

Officially we teach Tang Soo Do at the Y, but in reality it's more of a blend of TSD and WTF-Taekwondo.
How far along did your son get?


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## Mark70Z (Oct 29, 2004)

Is the Tang Soo Do affiliated with the Pak's in Mandarin?  I hear they have a really nice new location.  There was a boy in our Church that went to Pak's until he graduated from High School last year.  I think he was a 2nd Dan.  He's attending UF now.  Great guy!

He went to first Degree BB.  It took him four years to achieve.  The only reason it took him this period of time is that we wouldn't let him test everytime they wanted him to.  They wanted him to test about every two mouths, and he didn't really know the material.  Typically what happened was they went over the material for the testing the week before the testing, instead of learning all the material throughout the previous months.  Each test throughout his time there he passed, but "several" times he didn't know all the material and in my view should of never passed these tests.  After his first degree he only tested once (I think they called it a mid term).  They kept pushing him to test, but I told them that he would not be testing unless they taught him "all" the required material, and they didn't.  The ATA did have some pretty good curriculum, if they would actually follow it.  Maybe some of the schools do, but this one and the ones I've been to haven't.


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## Galvatron (Oct 29, 2004)

Your complaints are much the same as I've heard from nearly everyone I've encountered who was a former ATA student, or parent of one. Good outline, but little adherence. Saying that the almighty dollar is the primary focus there, is like saying automobiles like gasoline.

As for our affiliation, yes we are branched off of the Mandarin Pak's school. We operate completely autonomous of the Mandarin school, but our students go there to test (We have a testing Nov. 20).

Is your son currently taking from anywhere? Feel free to come watch our class (I can give you the schedule if you're interested). The only catch is that the Y stipulates that in order to join the program you also have to join the YMCA (stinks, but we haven't had any success changing that rule).


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## Shu2jack (Nov 1, 2004)

> Just a thought most systems of Escrima the "blocking' motion is again correctly done to the hands of your opponent. Since, Escrima'ists spend a lot of time working the sticks they have substituted hitting to the stick with the understanding of the correct target. This allows you to practice with the sticks more, with greater control. Also allow you to deal with a strong attack, after all who is gonna swing that hard on you knowing thier knuckles will bebashed?
> Not realistic, do you practice your one steps or self defense by driving your fists through your partners head?


I agree that a lot of people who practice with the sticks hit the stick with the understanding of the correct target. We do that a lot as well, but swinging at someone's hands and swinging at someone's stick with the understanding that you are hitting someone's hands are two different things. You have to slightly adjust your body position, angle, timing, etc. I believe one should train with both methods, they each have their benifits.

When using wooden sticks we didn't strike purposely strike at the hand. However, if you start learning to use weapons a student will eventually get hurt. Natural part of training. Getting hit by a solid wooden weapon directly on the knuckles can cause serious injury to the hand though, so we started using foam.

Like I said, I personally still train with wood. I do striking drills, forms, etc. with the wooden weapons. I also like using the foam weapons. They actually allow me to hit my partner's hand's, head, body, legs, etc. with a decent amount of force while my partner is trying to hit me. It stings and can leave some marks, but I believe it is a great learning tool. Just training the way of just striking the stick is not realistic to me.



> Also, just so you know the 2K was for the BB "Club". This is when you get to an orange belt there is a contract that you go until you become a BB. This was not the charge for testing.


2K!? My mom spent under $800 for my training for a year. Testings, uniform, training, tournaments, and weapons combined. That is about what I pay a year right now currently. I do realize some of the things going on in the organization and I do know we have senior masters in the organization fighting it the best they can.


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## Mark70Z (Nov 1, 2004)

Shu:

Just remember....when we signed up our son for the BB Club they stated that it would take approximately four years to get his BB; which he was an orange belt at the time (this was 1997).  Like I said prior, we found out kids were getting them in a 1 1/2 to 2 years after we already signed up.  So, this 2k, in our view at the time, was not bad for four years worth of training.  If you break down the cost it was only $500 per year.  Of course we didn't know about all the other different expenses, plus all the other "clubs" they had.

To me, as long as you and others in the ATA are aware of some of these things going on, hopefully it will continue to improve if enough individuals in the organization stand up for what is right.  I know there are some really good people within the organization, so hopefully in years to come it will continue to improve.


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## Mark70Z (Nov 1, 2004)

Galvatron:

My son is currently training in Orange Park at an individuals home/garage.  They probably have around ten or so students, so it's really small.  He seems to enjoy the class.  He is leaning an Okinawan style Shorin Ryu.  Our son is 13 years old.   

I would like to get your schedule to at least check it out.  I guess it's understandable if you are training at the Y they would also want you to join the Y.  I guess that may deter some people from coming, but I don't think it's too much of a negative thing (it may be positive?!?)  

Isn't Tang Soo Do simular to Taekwondo?  Are outside people allowed to attend the testings, or is it closed?


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## Miles (Nov 3, 2004)

Mark70Z said:
			
		

> Galvatron:
> 
> 
> Isn't Tang Soo Do simular to Taekwondo? Are outside people allowed to attend the testings, or is it closed?


TSD and TKD are similar in that they are both Korean arts, but TSD is much more like karate than is TKD.  In TKD schools, the sparring is continuous and full-contact whereas in TSD the sparring is generally point-style.

As far as spectators at testings, that is generally up to the instructor.  Some instructors use the "test" as more of a demonstration of what the student has accomplished.  Others ignore the day to day training and base their evaluation on a single event.

Now, to get back on topic, I have limited knowledge of the ATA, but the instructor that I know of in Traverse City, MI-Mr. Pline, is a fine gentleman and a true martial artist.  

Miles


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## Galvatron (Nov 3, 2004)

Miles said:
			
		

> TSD and TKD are similar in that they are both Korean arts, but TSD is much more like karate than is TKD.  In TKD schools, the sparring is continuous and full-contact whereas in TSD the sparring is generally point-style.



We spar full contact, using WTF-TKD style safety equipment.

Mark70Z: That sounds like a good situation for your son. If he's happy there and is learning something useful, then you definitely want to stick with that.
Our testings are open to the public, and in fact we encourage people to come watch (puts more pressure on the students).
We are actually having Black Belt testing this saturday (Nov 6th) at our main school located on Blanding Blvd, just outside of the Riverside area of town.
Colored Belt testing will be on the 20th.
The address is 1840 Blanding Blvd, if you are interested in watching.


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## Mark70Z (Nov 4, 2004)

Galvatron:  We have plans already for this weekend, so we will not be able to attend the BB testing.  Are there times when they have BB testing at the Mandarin facility?  If so, I'd like to attend one of those.  I believe from experience that you can tell a lot about the organization by viewing their BB's, or Brown belts that are testing.

Thanks for the advice on his current location which he is training.  Yes, he seems to be learning and he seems to be interested/content.  I guess we only have a few minor issues with the dojo.  One is the location...it's in Orange Park and we live in Switzerland, just below Mandarin.  It does take some time and organization to get there.  The other is since it's so small, and they have a few beginners; when the beginners come to class the focus becomes the beginners.  Therefore, you can't really work on the more advanced kata, sparring, etc.  In the larger schools they are able to separate a bit more.  I know there are "several" advantages with small schools also, which we appreciate.  All in all we are very happy with it.  We understand that no school is going to be perfect...

Miles:  The ATA has "a lot" of really good instructors.  In north Florida they recruit a lot from different countries.  The ones they go for are some of the best MAists in their country.  I guess the problem, in my view, is that the focus is way too much on the money and not on the individual.  I "know" this is not in every case, but it is that way in the ATA schools which I have been associated.  Also, in some of the other posts on this site and sites elsewhere which I have been reading, it seems the same way (all about the money) in some of those schools also.


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## Miles (Nov 4, 2004)

Galvatron said:
			
		

> We spar full contact, using WTF-TKD style safety equipment.
> ....


Galvatron, that is very interesting, and much different than the TSD schools with which I am familiar.

Does your school use WTF rules? 

Miles


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## Galvatron (Nov 4, 2004)

Miles said:
			
		

> Galvatron, that is very interesting, and much different than the TSD schools with which I am familiar.
> 
> Does your school use WTF rules?
> 
> Miles



I get the impression we're different also...
It's always been that way though in our system, as long as I've been here (17 years), and as long as my dad has been here (22 years).
Yeah, we basically follow WTF rules for sparring, except that in normal classes we don't tend to do head contact. In senior belt and black belt classes we usually allow it though.

Mark70Z: At the Y we have seperate classes for beginners, intermediates and advanced.
My colored belt classes are Tues and Thurs from 5:15-6:15, and Saturday Morning from 9:45-10:45 and we have an advanced class from 9:00-9:45 on Saturday mornings.
We also have classes later in the evening, which are taught by a different instructor (a 6th dan, who's been doing this since I was barely out of diapers), which run from 8:00-8:50 on tues and thurs. These classes tend to be smaller (3-4 people usually) and are great, in that there is a lot more one-on-one attention given.
Feel free to stop by any time.
As for testing, all of our BB tests are at our main school. You have to make the trek to the main school and test in front of the grandmaster for black belts.
Mandarin (and the Y) will be having Colored Belt testing (White up to Red) on the 20th. I think that they are having it in the gym at some church on loretto road. I'll find out which one specifically, if you want to come watch.


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## Mark70Z (Nov 4, 2004)

Let me know which church and we'll try and come by and watch (and the time).  I guess we'll be able to see how much they have learned through the belt levels.  Do they have any type of demo's at the testing, or is it all about the test?  I guess I'd like to see what the quality of the BB's are...

Also, one more question.  Do you happen to know anyone in NE Florida that teaches or has a school for grappling/jiu jitsu, or some other simular ground fighting MA?  At some point in time I'd like to have my son at least learn the basics of ground fighting.  Like I said before, he started in Taekwondo, and is in Shorin Ryu now, but neither really teach him much about a fight once it goes to the ground.


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## Galvatron (Nov 4, 2004)

There's a place out at the beach on mayport road that teaches Judo, and I THINK they also teach Jui-Jitsu. I think the name of the school is "Gentle Way" or something like that. I couldn't give you any input on how the school is though, as I've never been there or met anyone from there. I've heard second-hand that it's a good school.
There's a Taekwondo school in Orange Park called "The Mudo College of Taekwondo" where they also teach Hapkido. I know that HKD isn't typically thought of as a "ground fighting" style, but he teaches a lot of close range combat type stuff. In the classes I've taken there, he's done a good bit of stuff on how to deal with getting pinned down, ending up on the ground, etc. The head instructor's name is Master Ron Berry, and he's a Kukkiwon-6th Dan.
I live in the Ft Caroline area of town and still make it a point to try to get out there once or twice a month.


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## Mark70Z (Nov 5, 2004)

I see the Gentle Way of Judo listed within the Yellow Pages, but I don't see The Mudo College of Taekwondo.  I guess they're not listed; can you give me the location of the school?  Thanks for all the help!

When my son first started at the ATA his first instructor was from Argentina.  He was a great guy and a fine MAist.  He had his BB in BJJ, and his third degree in Taekwondo (I think the ATA just gave him the BB when he came to the US, but don't quote me on that since I may be mistaken).  The school just started and he was teaching the class ground fighting along with Taekwondo.  My son really enjoyed the classes with him instructing.  A few years later due to family issues he had to move back to Argentina.  I'm sure we would still be there if he was instructing.


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## Galvatron (Nov 7, 2004)

Mudo College is near the intersection of Kingsley Ave and Blanding Blvd in Orange Park.
The Phone Number is 276-4756
Master Berry doesn't advertize his school at all, he gets most of his business from word of mouth referral.


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## Mark70Z (Nov 8, 2004)

Thanks for the information.  I'll check it out...


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