# Chen Taijiquan and Juji Gatame and Shime



## oaktree (Mar 11, 2016)

So....I was looking for videos and I came across this video





Now granted it is not a professional Judoka or Bjj grappler but it does show that Chen style is at least aware of
the MMA circuit and has some understanding of what is being applied out there.
When I first started Chen Taijiquan under one teacher and I talked about these things Fa jin was the answer but now we are seeing some of the thoughts on Chen Taijiquan and grappling on the ground. 

I like the video I think it is interesting to see what a Chen Player may do in that situtation.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2016)

The 20th generation, Chen Taijiquan, has gotten very interested in Sanshou and this does not surprise me at all. But what they are doing is applying qinna to grappling which has been a CMA thing for a very very long time.


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## oaktree (Mar 11, 2016)

I know the qinna has been around just never saw Chen style be asked a question how would you deal with this technique and give a plausible escape in a grappling setting on the ground. 
In my own time in bjj, I found when people trying to control my arms on the ground they had difficulty due to being able to use Chen silk reeling, and Taiji theory especially in guard position.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 12, 2016)

For the "death hold". His opponent performs an "incomplete" technique and allows him to have a base (1 foot and 1 knee on the ground).






If his opponent moves back, drag him backward, and force him to sit on his hip, his counter won't work.








This is a MA paradox. Counters that work when your opponent applies

- an "incomplete" technique do have value.
- a "complete" technique have more value. Unfortunately sometime there is none.


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## oaktree (Mar 12, 2016)

I agree If the person applied it correctly perhaps he wouldn't have gotten out of it or perhaps a different approach to what is being applied. However, the average person and this guy applying it would most likely be the representation of the average person would apply it as he did.
But let's say he did go back and he was in a situation being choked depends how tight the choke is not many things even a professional mma fighter can do as well. 
Bas rutten did a video about read naked chokes and was talking that when it is applied correctly you go out fast and if the guy is a stronger guy at least you tried something which is the point of the video to show that at least Chen Taijiquan is examining things on the ground and things we see in mma as example in the famous of Chen Bing and the mma gym which was hosted by my teacher.


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## ChenAn (Mar 12, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Bas rutten did a video about read naked chokes and was talking that when it is applied correctly you go out fast and if the guy is a stronger guy at least you tried something which is the point of the video to show that at least Chen Taijiquan is examining things on the ground and things we see in mma as example in the famous of Chen Bing and the mma gym which was hosted by my teacher.



Are you referring to the video of Chen Bing wrestling with Mike Pacelli ?


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## ChenAn (Mar 12, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> For the "death hold". His opponent performs an "incomplete" technique and allows him to have a base (1 foot and 1 knee on the ground).
> .



It's obviously promotional video to boost taiji $$$$


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## oaktree (Mar 12, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> Are you referring to the video of Chen Bing wrestling with Mike Pacelli ?


Actually I am referring to the video that was created in Miami at least that is what my teacher told me it was. My teacher is bringing Chen Bing over this summer if I remember.


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## ChenAn (Mar 12, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Actually I am referring to the video that was created in Miami at least that is what my teacher told me it was. My teacher is bringing Chen Bing over this summer if I remember.



Is your teacher is Steve Contes?


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## oaktree (Mar 12, 2016)

My teacher is James cravens lineage holder under Chen Xiao wang line.


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## zzj (Mar 14, 2016)

I wouldn't get excited about anything I see from China TV, especially when it comes to demonstrations of MA's etc. They have a very propagandistic approach to handling such programs... such as the infamous Tai Chi vs Judo clip from a couple of years back, not doing any favours to Tai Chi.


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## zzj (Mar 14, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If his opponent moves back, drag him backward, and force him to sit on his hip, his counter won't work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As far as I have been taught, if you let yourself get caught in a proper Rear Naked Choke you're a goner.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2016)

zzj said:


> I wouldn't get excited about anything I see from China TV, especially when it comes to demonstrations of MA's etc. They have a very propagandistic approach to handling such programs... such as the infamous Tai Chi vs Judo clip from a couple of years back, not doing any favours to Tai Chi.


I was excited because we finally see Taijiquan in a ground fighting scenario with one of the most famous application, if I go to the Chen Bing seminar I would love to get some video of me and him going over some of those things and his explanation of it from a Chen style point of view. I would also like to see some sticking following principles in a knife defense


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## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2016)

zzj said:


> As far as I have been taught, if you let yourself get caught in a proper Rear Naked Choke you're a goner.



If you are very quick there's a couple of things you can do to get out but I have to repeat that you have to be fast.


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## zzj (Mar 14, 2016)

oaktree said:


> I was excited because we finally see Taijiquan in a ground fighting scenario with one of the most famous application, if I go to the Chen Bing seminar I would love to get some video of me and him going over some of those things and his explanation of it from a Chen style point of view. I would also like to see some sticking following principles in a knife defense



Yes, a seminar with someone like Chen Bing will be well worth the time and expense, just don't put too much into what you see on Chinese TV.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2016)

ZZJ can you explain more about the propaganda behind showing a possible escape using Taijiquan that the Chinese government has used its resources to showcase.


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## ChenAn (Mar 14, 2016)

oaktree said:


> I was excited because we finally see Taijiquan in a ground fighting scenario with one of the most famous application, if I go to the Chen Bing seminar I would love to get some video of me and him going over some of those things and his explanation of it from a Chen style point of view. I would also like to see some sticking following principles in a knife defense



There no ground fighting in taiji. If taiji practitioner find himself  on the ground a judo or BBJ he will be done. 


Understanding limitation and advantages of tiji makes practitioner aware of where not to get into. All this promotional BS on tv only harm taiji. Any serious martial art has to have healthy respect to other martial ars - not to create ridiculous  phony shows.

I did wrestle with Chen Bing for about 5 years. He is good in tuishou village type wrestling. He has good skills but definitely posses no extraordinary magical power to handle anything beyond it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2016)

NEVER claimed there was ANY Ground fighting in Taijiquan THE POINT WAS to showcase a possible scenerio in WHICH a TAJIQUAN player may find themselves and a POSSIBLE APPLICATION dealing with it. As my teacher told me, Chen stylist are aware of what is happening. 
As for phony tv shows maybe it is a phony tv show with funding for propaganda however the application was legit with a reasonable, plausible means to escape it. Clearly ChenAn and ZZJ missed the point of the post and the intent behind it and rather focus on Government funding propaganda and MAYBE YOU should start a thread addressing that and stay on topic.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 14, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> For the "death hold". His opponent performs an "incomplete" technique and allows him to have a base (1 foot and 1 knee on the ground).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, on the one hand both the armbar and the choke were applied in a flawed manner, allowing for the counters shown.

On the other hand, if either technique were applied correctly and were sunk in equally far, then they are done deals. You're either going to sleep or getting your arm snapped. Asking how to counter them at that point is like asking how to counter a groin kick once the opponent's foot has already contacted your balls and started to drive them up into your pelvis.

On the third hand, it's probably better to show how to counter a correctly executed choke or armbar early, before it's 100% sunk in, rather than showing how to counter a badly executed choke or armbar that's all the way in place. Relying on the other guy to screw up isn't the best approach, IMHO.



On


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2016)

Counters can be applied for:

1. before - this is simple. As long as you can maintain proper distance, none of your opponent's technique will work on you.
2. during - you have to move just a bit faster before your opponent can complete his technique on you.
3. after - everything is too late now.

If a technique is performed correctly, there may be counters for 1, and 2. But there won't be any counters for 3 unless the guy who applies counter is a much stronger person. For example, no matter how perfect that a 5 years old who try to apply a technique on it, you can always counter him anytime you want to.

In that clip, both counters are shown the "after" stage. IMO, that's not proper.


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## zzj (Mar 14, 2016)

oaktree said:


> ZZJ can you explain more about the propaganda behind showing a possible escape using Taijiquan that the Chinese government has used its resources to showcase.



It's the mentality, not some conspiracy. Tests like these tend to be eyewash that do not really test the premise, only serving to dress a preset outcome.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2016)

Are you suggesting the guy put the technique weak or let go easily?I am fully aware of Chinese tv and propaganda however, focus on the technique being displayed. Are you suggesting that it was staged what evidence do you have to support that? have you had the technique applied to you and tried a similar method?


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 14, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Are you suggesting the guy put the technique weak or let go easily?I am fully aware of Chinese tv and propaganda however, focus on the technique being displayed. Are you suggesting that it was staged what evidence do you have to support that? have you had the technique applied to you and tried a similar method?


I don't know who you are asking, but I don't necessarily think the uke* applied the technique weakly or deliberately let go easily. I'm saying he applied both the choke and the armlock _incorrectly. _It's quite possible he doesn't have the training to know the details of how to apply them properly.

For the record, I do have quite a bit of experience with both applying and defending those two techniques.

*(Is there an equivalent term in CMA to "uke"? It's such a useful term for clarifying who is doing what in a demonstration.)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> *(Is there an equivalent term in CMA to "uke"?


下手(Xia Shou) - receiving side.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2016)

I can agree on the technique not being applied correctly in relation to bjj or judo, and that is a good constructive criticism,
So we can look at it from let's say the average guy attempting it with some knowledge in martial arts could it be reasonable. as much as it may be a flawed experiment or presentation it is interesting to see Taijiquan at least making an attempt at something that is not part of the curriculum.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Are you suggesting the guy put the technique weak or let go easily?


For the arm bar, if you let your opponent to be able to "twist his arm" and move his elbow joint side way from the downward position, you are not applying a correct technique. IMO, when you "train a certain technique", you should also "train how to counter that technique". You then "train how to prevent your opponent from countering that technique".

Again, if a technique is applied 100% correct, there will be no counters, and there will be nothing to discuss.

Here is another example of "bad technique". Where did he do wrong?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2016)

oaktree said:


> it is interesting to see Taijiquan at least making an attempt at something that is not part of the curriculum.


He has the right attitude toward Taiji as a fighting art. There is no argument there. His counters are both valid. It's his opponent who doesn't know how to prevent his counters. I assume his opponent did that on purpose.

If we all say, "Excellent clip, great counters, thanks for sharing". This thread won't go much further.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2016)

Agreed that if applied correctly then chance of counter is diminished or unlikely, as for the sliding out well I will say grabbing a Chen stylist being able to silk reel could explain that, I don't want to make that a coup out but at least plausible.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2016)

Here is a stand up "arm bar". When your opponent jacks your arm and make your feet to be off the ground, it will be too late to counter it.


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## zzj (Mar 14, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Are you suggesting the guy put the technique weak or let go easily?I am fully aware of Chinese tv and propaganda however, focus on the technique being displayed. Are you suggesting that it was staged what evidence do you have to support that? have you had the technique applied to you and tried a similar method?



I am suggesting that the technique is not tested to a good enough extent to prove that it can be viable in any situation other than when a flawed choke or armbar is applied. I would love to see verification that the techniques are indeed effective in most cases when you get caught in such situations by at least semi proficient and aggressive opponents.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2016)

Soooooo, in other words in the cage or in a way in which the guy could have his arm broken is the only valid way either he gets out or had arm broken


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## Zeny (Mar 14, 2016)

I don't believe in the existence of an uncounterable technique. Uncounterable 'gung lik' (or force generated through years of training) yes, but not uncounterable technique.

If my body has better 'gung lik' or 'sung' than you, no grappling technique you practise will work effectively on me.


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## mograph (Mar 14, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> (Is there an equivalent term in CMA to "uke"? It's such a useful term for clarifying who is doing what in a demonstration.)


Possibly, "attacker" and "defender" might be appropriate. I prefer "black" and "white" when the artists are dressed as such, e.g. "black applies _peng_, white responds with _lu_." But I know of no analog to _uke_ or _nage_ in CMA.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 15, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I don't believe in the existence of an uncounterable technique.


Not uncountable but too late to counter. The simplest example is when both of your legs are off the ground.


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## 23rdwave (Mar 15, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not uncountable but too late to counter. The simplest example is when both of your legs are off the ground.



There is a solution to every problem.


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