# Why do you come to the Hapkido Forum?



## oftheherd1 (Jun 10, 2011)

I see people visiting the Hapkido forum every time I come into the Korean Martial Arts area.  What I almost never see is someone posting in the Hapkido forum.  

Are there Hapkido practitioners who just don't find anything of interest?  Please start a thread on something that interests you.

Are there people coming in because they want to learn more about Hapkido?  There's only so much old stuff to learn in the old threads.  Ask anything that interests you.

Are there other MA who just want to see if Hapkido is something they would like to add to their skill set?  Why so?

Are there some who come in for other reasons but aren't getting answers?  Why are you coming in?

Anyway, tell me why do you come into the Hapkido forum?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 11, 2011)

You mean people come here???

Daniel


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## seasoned (Jun 11, 2011)

I'm here by mistake, I think.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 12, 2011)

seasoned said:


> I'm here by mistake, I think.



LOL.  I wonder if a lot don't come here by mistake.  There sure isn't much action.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 12, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You mean people come here???
> 
> Daniel



Yes sir.  I am not sure what you misunderstood me to mean, but yes, people who come to the Hapkido forum.


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## Doomx2001 (Jun 12, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> I see people visiting the Hapkido forum every time I come into the Korean Martial Arts area.  What I almost never see is someone posting in the Hapkido forum.
> 
> Are there Hapkido practitioners who just don't find anything of interest?  Please start a thread on something that interests you.
> 
> ...





I noticed the same thing too. There be about 5 or 20 people view 'Hapkido' or the 'General Korean Arts' thread, but no one posting.  Most of the people that are viewing could be guests who can't post because they don't have an account and they don't feel like starting one just to ask one question.

Myself, I have alot of questions about hapkido (Combat Hapkido, Jun Tong Mu Sool, Hwarang Do, Kuk Sool Won), but it seems the people who can answer the questions in the threads I start aren't on here. Or there are people who would like to help me out, but they don't have to expertise on the subject to comment.
Sad.

Anyway, people should post more, have more of an dialog. I agree with your post. Very good point you've made there.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 13, 2011)

Doomx2001 said:


> I noticed the same thing too. There be about 5 or 20 people view 'Hapkido' or the 'General Korean Arts' thread, but no one posting. Most of the people that are viewing could be guests who can't post because they don't have an account and they don't feel like starting one just to ask one question.
> 
> Myself, I have alot of questions about hapkido (Combat Hapkido, Jun Tong Mu Sool, Hwarang Do, Kuk Sool Won), but it seems the people who can answer the questions in the threads I start aren't on here. Or there are people who would like to help me out, but they don't have to expertise on the subject to comment.
> Sad.
> ...


 
Thanks for your reply. You may well be correct about people who don't want to start an account, although the process isn't that hard, if not immediate. We who like MA shouldn't be surprised is something takes effort.

And I also see your point about asking about other arts. I can see Combat hapkido, but the others you mention I could not comment on. I have never heard of Jun Tong Mu Sool. I don't know enough about Hwarang Do to know where it sits in the MA area. And Kuk Sool Won seems a less practiced and taught art that even Hapkido. I've seen demonstrations and think it is an interesting are, however. There is a lot of crossover between it and Hapkido as well.

With the paucity of comment/interest in Hakkido, the other arts you mentioned don't have a chance, eh?


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## Doomx2001 (Jun 13, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> And I also see your point about asking about other arts. I can see Combat hapkido, but the others you mention I could not comment on. I have never heard of Jun Tong Mu Sool. I don't know enough about Hwarang Do to know where it sits in the MA area. And Kuk Sool Won seems a less practiced and taught art that even Hapkido. I've seen demonstrations and think it is an interesting are, however. There is a lot of crossover between it and Hapkido as well.



In Kuk Sool Wons case, if you get to learn from first or second generation students of KSW you will find the training is alot different from how things are done today. Better quality instruction and practice is what you will get from those guys. I'm not sure why there is a decline in these last few generations of quality instructors KSW. But, usually, in most cases, money is culpret. Money corrupts. It could be that to avoid lawsuits (which a wavier would solve that) and to get more students in the door they water down the curriculum in KSW and make it 'prettier'. This generation of kids is honestly, pathetic. They are weak, appathetic to everyone/everything, spoiled, with no values, and focused more on sex than the generations that have come before. So getting them in the doors of a Dojang is a challenge in and of itself. 



oftheherd1 said:


> With the paucity of comment/interest in Hakkido, the other arts you mentioned don't have a chance, eh?



Yeah, I agree with that. I think that now, with so many martial art forums on the net, I think it tends to take away from each respective Martial Art forums pool of martial art experts who can answer the questions. 
Also, another factor is the nasty side of human nature. People get into arguments, sometimes over silly things on this and other forums, and they leave (or kicked off unfortunately). Many practitoners of martial arts have very strong views on their respective art, and sometimes that gets in the way of a healthy debate, and then it gets personal.

And one other note; it seems not just on this forum (Martial Talk) that there is a decline of posters on other martial art forums. This is just my observation based on looking at the last date of replies to several  threads on other forums. Maybe where something is new, alot of people jump on board, but as it gets old, so does their enthusiasm. 

I think the biggest thing to change the decline of posters in forums, in general, is to have a good attitude and have something worth saying. To be forthcoming, I was one of those people who would go to forums as a guest just to read/research and not be posting/contributing. I guess you could say I became a fan of some posters for their knowledge of hapkido or martial arts in general. Two people come to mind is Bruce Sims ( I think thats his name) and Daniel Sullivian. Both have plenty to say that is worth your time and have influenced my views on Korean martial arts history. (Yeah, its the truth, give credit where credit is due, thanks).

But anyway, I think having a positive attitude and having something worth saying could help draw people in to post. I know first hand that coming across as being 'positive' on the internet is a hard thing to do because sometimes you don't feel like typing 30 paragraphs just so people know your not being personal/insulting/hateful. Because, in the end, the printed word is unforgiving, and can be easily misinterpreted as being hostile when all your doing is trying to have a conversation. 

We as human beings take for granted body language and tone of our voices for granted when it comes to communicating. Because I could call somebody a '$##%#^%head' in person and based on my body language/voice tone they know that I'm being playful/funny. But, on the internet the only thing we have to go on is the printed word and so much focus is put on that to the point where we take things more personal than we should, including me, and most everybody else.

Back to my original point if we here at MartialTalk come across as welcoming and open minded, and not easily offended, with something worth saying on topics with plenty of details, ....I think that would draw people in. I really do. 

Well, I had another thought on the subject in my head, but I've went 'blank'.  I'm tired of typing anway, Its took 30 minutes just to type these few paragraphs. 
So theres my thoughts.

 - Doomx2001


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 13, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yes sir.  I am not sure what you misunderstood me to mean, but yes, people who come to the Hapkido forum.



I knew what you meant.  I was alluding the lack of activity.  Rather frustrating.  It seems that unless someone posts, "COMBAT HAPKIDO" in the title, something that brings people out of the woodwork ready to fight, not much goes on.

We already have enough contention in the TKD area, so maybe people are just spent by the time they get here?

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 13, 2011)

Doomx2001 said:


> Two people come to mind is Bruce Sims ( I think thats his name) and Daniel Sullivian. Both have plenty to say that is worth your time and have influenced my views on Korean martial arts history. (Yeah, its the truth, give credit where credit is due, thanks).


Bruce is an incredible font of knowledge of hapkido and of kumdo.  To be mentioned positively in the same sentence as he is quite humbling.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Jun 13, 2011)

I also think that the hardcore practitioners see things in a very Hapkido way. many of us do things differently yet the same. Not good or bad just different. 
Most of the discussions go more philosophical or tend to be among closed circles. Between facebook and 1 or 2 other places it just makes no sense to repeat dialogues on more forums.
I post here occasionally but primarily use MT to keep up on the TKD world.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 14, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I knew what you meant. I was alluding the lack of activity. Rather frustrating. It seems that unless someone posts, "COMBAT HAPKIDO" in the title, something that brings people out of the woodwork ready to fight, not much goes on.
> 
> We already have enough contention in the TKD area, so maybe people are just spent by the time they get here?
> 
> Daniel


 
Yep, kind of frustrating for those of us who have spent the time to learn Hapkido well, and like to discuss it.  Perhaps others do get spent before they get here.  I guess we need to petition to get Hapkido moved to the top of the Korean Martial Arts area.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I have heard of Combat Hapkido, and it does seem to get attention, but I frankly don't know enough about it to comment.  The little I have seen in magazines I glace at from time to time, seems more hype than anything else.  But that is probably the fault of the magazine and writer.  Much in magazines is hyped.  Some "new" technique from some instructor, or some "secret" of some art or instructor.  Bleh.  Mind you, I understand the need to sell magainzes, and I guess most experienced practitioners in any art aren't favorably impressed by the hype.

Thanks for your reply and input.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 14, 2011)

Doomx2001 said:


> In Kuk Sool Wons case, if you get to learn from first or second generation students of KSW you will find the training is alot different from how things are done today. Better quality instruction and practice is what you will get from those guys. I'm not sure why there is a decline in these last few generations of quality instructors KSW. But, usually, in most cases, money is culpret. Money corrupts. It could be that to avoid lawsuits (which a wavier would solve that) and to get more students in the door they water down the curriculum in KSW and make it 'prettier'. This generation of kids is honestly, pathetic. They are weak, appathetic to everyone/everything, spoiled, with no values, and focused more on sex than the generations that have come before. So getting them in the doors of a Dojang is a challenge in and of itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the post.  I think there is a lot of truth in what you say.  Too bad though, that we don't get more action in this forum.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 14, 2011)

dortiz said:


> I also think that the hardcore practitioners see things in a very Hapkido way. many of us do things differently yet the same. Not good or bad just different.
> Most of the discussions go more philosophical or tend to be among closed circles. Between facebook and 1 or 2 other places it just makes no sense to repeat dialogues on more forums.
> I post here occasionally but primarily use MT to keep up on the TKD world.


 
So what is your primary art, TKD or Hapkido, or another?  

I was interested in your comment on seeing "things in a very Hapkido way."  Could you expand on that please?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 14, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yep, kind of frustrating for those of us who have spent the time to learn Hapkido well, and like to discuss it.  Perhaps others do get spent before they get here.  I guess we need to petition to get Hapkido moved to the top of the Korean Martial Arts area.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Combat hapkido gets people going at it for a lot of reasons, many of which seem to have little to do with the content of the system and more to do with opinions of GM Pelligrini.  Somewhere on here, there is a thread that I started with the express interest of learning more about the art simply because there were about five or six flame wars going on about it at the time wherein the detractors had little to no knowledge of the actual system. 

I actually called GMP on the phone, as many questions that I asked where met with a response of 'talk to GMP.'  I have to say that I really enjoyed talking to him.  He was pleasant and personable and he took a solid half hour of his time to answer my questions.  

Near as I can tell, CHKD is a small circle HKD system with a heavy emphasis on self defense.  Not better or worse than anything else; just focused on what the founder happens to place priority on. 

He's done a lot of work to market his system, including a distance learning program, and that seems to be the factor that rubs people the wrong way.

Daniel


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 15, 2011)

Distance learning has always struck me as of dubious value to a begging student of any MA.  I just don't think it can work.  If there are several students who can work together, that would help of course.  If there is provision/.requirement for travel to a qualified instructor, that would help students who have sincerely tried but somehow gotten things wrong.

For an experience person, they can more easily grasp what is being shown, and apply it if they have a practice partner.

Have you had any experience using or seeing students that did?


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## Doomx2001 (Jun 15, 2011)

My view in general on 'Distance Learning Courses' is that they are geared really toward the experienced martial artist as that is the only person who may fully grasp what is being taught.

One example could be someone who is a black belt in, lets say, Sin Moo Hapkido, and for whatever reason they feel something is lacking in their training, well someone like that could very well benefit from the Combat Hapkido distance learning courses/dvd's as that will add possibly new '*concepts*' to their Sin Moo Hapkido training.
( 'Concepts', _as meaning ideas about how to do techniques or how to go about defending yourself in general, not really focusing on techniques themselves. Think of how a Wing Chun person views concepts, and that is what I mean_).

The reason I say '*concepts*', is because most Hapkido styles are very well rounded martial arts with kicking, striking, joint locking, pressure points, weapons, and some ground work, and......most Hapkido styles actually have way more techniques that differ from one another than Combat Hapkido. That is not a 'knock' on that style, thats just the truth based on their white to black belt curriculum. And what Combat Hapkido would have to offer to another Hapkidoist is different concepts that they can apply to their own training.

Also.....

 Combat Hapkido is a striped down Hapkido style with more emphisis on simple joint locks, simple kicks, and simple strikes. Thats the main reason why most Hapkido styles have alot more in their curriculum than Combat Hapkido because their emphisis is on less is more which is neither a good or bad thing. To each their own.

One thing that I like about Combat Hapkido is the use of doing a 'strike/kick/distraction' to your opponent when doing a technique. This 'concept' is one that is lacking in many Hapkido styles, and in my opinion is one that should be incorparated in all martial arts. Also, the 'concept' of covering your face/centerline is one that can be found CH that is not practiced in many Hapkido styles. 

So, back to the original point that I was trying to make, the basic CH course could give someone in another style of Hapkido some different 'concepts' (not to be confused with techniques) to add to what they do whether that be Sin Moo, Kuk Sool, or anything in between. 

The downside of a 'Distance Learning Course' is that people who may not have the experience needed or haven't even trained in a martial arts before are basically throwing their money away when it would be much better to get some training at the nearest local dojo before trying to learn something through the mail.

However, there is another side to the last point I just made. Sometimes a 'Distance Learning Course' is the only means of learning available to a potential student in martial arts. And if you don't have something available to you within 60 miles of where you live, what are going to do? Who are we to look down or 'pooh' on someone who is doing what they can when they may not have the means to travel? 

One example that comes to mind is I remember reading years ago in the letter column of Black Belt Magazine that someone was needing videos, books, training equipment of any kind to send to Cuba for a Judo club that had started there. As that country is closed off from the rest of the world, it's extremely difficult for people in Cuba to find a dojo to train at. I don't even know if the Judo club that was being started by whoever in Cuba even had experience in Judo. 

But, I can tell you this much;  you take someone who lives in place of few opportunites like Cuba, and they have the drive, passion, and the will,....and in the end someone like that can move mountains more so than most spoiled citizens of industrial nations (and thats not putting down America, or Europe or any other country, its just the truth in my opinion). A dvd course would be of a great use to someone Cuba in those circumstances. 

And, I can already foresee many 'nay' sayers to that point, but I would argue that the power of the human mind and the human spirit trumps many obsticals that many view as impossible.

Beethoven was able to continue writing complex sympthonys despite becoming deaf, Albert Einstein gave us the power of the Atom despite flunking math in his early years, President Obama went from community organizer to 3 term Senator to President (whether you like him or not thats incrediable to move so fast to the top in less than 20 years), and .......

....Helen Adams Keller (June 27, 1880 &#8211; June 1, 1968) was an American author, political activist, and lecturer. She was the first *deafblind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degre*e.[1][2] The story of how Keller's teacher, Anne Sullivan, broke through the isolation imposed by a *near complete lack of language*, allowing the girl to blossom as she learned to communicate, has become widely known through the dramatic depictions of the play and film The Miracle Worker.


The final point I would like to make about 'Distance Learning Courses' is other than the fact people question if a person can learn martial arts from a video, there is also the question of whether a video students rank holds up beside someone who got their rank in the dojo. 
I would argue that rank is one earned, but regardless, rank is meaningless except to the person who has the belt whether they earned it in the dojo or through the mail. There are many 6th degree black belts that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag while there are many white belts in Brazilian Jujutsu that can mop the floor with many black belts of different styles (which is a testament to their training methods). 
No one on the street that is trying to rob or kill you cares about what rank you are in your respective art.
So in the end, rank only means something to the person who earned it. Other than that, rank is useless. I judge martial artists not by their rank, but, by *what they know/what they can do*. Being able to *APPLY* what they've been taught in a *street situtation*, because after all, were not learning ballet, were learning self defense when it comes down to it. And if they learned what they can 'back up' from a video or discredited historical fraudgelent art, more power to them. 

Most traditional martial arts (Ex: Bagua, Hsing Yi, Chen Taijiquan, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, Hung Gar, pre-WW1 Okinawan martial arts...etc) were made by men who didn't have a black belt or any belt for that matter for times of old there was not ranking system, only reputation the founders of those style had earned as fighters in the street and on the battlefield to the point other people wanted to learn what they know. The belt system that many of us use today is modern invention that started from Judo as they were one of the first to start a belt ranking system.

Here is what Wikipedia says: _The systematic use of belt color to denote rank was first used by Kano Jigoro, the founder of judo, who first devised the colored belt system using obi, and awarded the first black belts to denote a Dan rank in the 1880s. Initially the wide obi was used; as practitioners trained in kimono, only white and black obi were used. It was not until the early 1900s, after the introduction of the judogi, that an expanded colored belt system of awarding rank was created.[2] Other martial arts later adopted the custom or variation on it (e.g. using colored sashes) to denote rank including in arts that traditionally did not have a formalized rank structure._ 

So in summary, I'm fine and dandy with people learning from a 'Distance Learning Course' to try to learn/earn rank. In the end, that means nothing me except for what they can actually do. If they find that they can't learn from a 'DLC' then they will one day if they are sincere about learning martials arts find a dojo when it is more a possiblity for that said person. To be honest, I don't look down on a 'DLC' student, but I don't necessarily hold them in high esteem either, but in the end its when I 'throw down' with them that pass any sort of judgement of what they could do. 


Thats my thoughts so far, I gotta' go put in an air conditioner, I've grown tired of going to bed burning up. 

luv,
 - Doomx2001


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 16, 2011)

Thanks for your reply Doomx2001.  It was a long but interesting and enlightening read.  CHKD sounds like it has merit if taught by a qualified teacher.  But you have a point which I sort of alluded to, that if there are more than one, they may be able to help each other learn with DVDs.  I just think being able to, or required to, go to a live instructor from time to time, would be invaluable for correcting unintended learning errors.

I thought that was an interesting point on "concepts" as well, if I understand.  CHKD apparently focuses on a small abount of techniques for violent resistence to an attack, with the sole intent of quickly learned self protection.  And I think you mean that small amount of techniques is enough, in a short amount of time, without learning a lot of techniques as those of us do who have taken a traditional route of learning Hapkido.  I have no problem with that if that is what they say.  I still prefer a more traditional route for myself, but that is only valid for and to me.

The short route is sort of like what Kong Soo Do was talking about in another thread.  However, I would guess CHKD teaches more that what he was referring to.


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## Manny (Jun 16, 2011)

I vist this forum quite a bit, why? mmm there are many things but I think because HKD is a Korean Martial Art and I do TKD wich is also a Korean Martial Art, I think both MA HKD and TKD complement each other and I like to post here and learn some too.

I always feel welcome here and I post some times here too.

Manny


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 16, 2011)

One other comment to add to distance learning:Visual learners tend to get much more from it than other types, and those who do not have a predominantly visual learning style are generally dismissive of it entirely, mainly because they simply cannot relate to learning in a purely visual way.  

Being a visual learner, I get a *lot* out of videos that others may not.

Daniel


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 16, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> One other comment to add to distance learning:Visual learners tend to get much more from it than other types, and those who do not have a predominantly visual learning style are generally dismissive of it entirely, mainly because they simply cannot relate to learning in a purely visual way.
> 
> Being a visual learner, I get a *lot* out of videos that others may not.
> 
> Daniel


 
Yessir, that has merit.  I'm just sorry for those who aren't.  But I suspect some of that comes from you past MA experience.  Do you think that makes any difference?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 17, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yessir, that has merit. I'm just sorry for those who aren't. But I suspect some of that comes from you past MA experience. Do you think that makes any difference?


Absolutely.  Having MA experience allows one to fill in the gaps when looking at pictures in a book, watching videos, etc.  But I have learned to do other things from a video, things that I had no previous experience in.  As I said, I am a visual learner.  If you show me, I can learn it.  If you tell me either verbally or in print, assuming that you describe it accurately, I can visualize it and learn it.  Kinesthetic?  Yes, but not my strong suit.

Daniel


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 18, 2011)

Manny said:


> I vist this forum quite a bit, why? mmm there are many things but I think because HKD is a Korean Martial Art and I do TKD wich is also a Korean Martial Art, I think both MA HKD and TKD complement each other and I like to post here and learn some too.
> 
> I always feel welcome here and I post some times here too.
> 
> Manny



Well, I enjoy seeing your posts in other forums.  Any input here from you would be good.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 18, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Absolutely.  Having MA experience allows one to fill in the gaps when looking at pictures in a book, watching videos, etc.  But I have learned to do other things from a video, things that I had no previous experience in.  As I said, I am a visual learner.  If you show me, I can learn it.  If you tell me either verbally or in print, assuming that you describe it accurately, I can visualize it and learn it.  Kinesthetic?  Yes, but not my strong suit.
> 
> Daniel



I agree with you.  But it is difficult to describe some moves in print.  I have the entire written set of techniques in Soong Moo Kwan Hapkido, from white belt to those for the 3rd Dan test.  But they are really more memory joggers.  Many would be impossible to figure out from the written instruction alone. 

I am not saying you couldn't describe the techniques in writing.  I just think it would be difficult to do so in order that everyone would easily understand them the same way.


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## dortiz (Jun 18, 2011)

"things in a very Hapkido way."

My primary art is HKD. I started both arts at 18 years old. leaned heavier to TKD for a few years as my teachers were the Old Style. Very Hard. In the end I gravitated back to mainly Hapkido. Now at 46 the Grandmaster I help out with who is Kukkiwon 9th Dan says everything I do looks like Hapkido.

Hapkido is an art of non resistance. Like water you flow. Its not in its nature to argue or push or look for an opposing view. The more you see in the physical art the more you start seeing it in life. At home, at work and in all things. So thus one is more apt to read and think " could be" Or "thats how they see it" .
Again, a very HKD mind set is not Good or Bad just different. Although being very off balance can certainly be bad  : )


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 20, 2011)

Nicely put Dortiz, thanks for that.  Hapkido (even TDK the little I studied it) as I learned it doesn't look for any opportunity to combat; walking away is OK.


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