# Pinan/Pinion and Katas



## BallistikMike

Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 were developed by whom?

Katas 1 - 6 were developed by whom?

My understanding is that some of the Pinans/Pinions are traditional Karate Kata or emulate them with their movements. Where the "Katas 1 -6" are the Self-Defense Katas containing most of the techniques of the original Kajukenbo system (Palama sets put together?)

I just wanted a formalized list for cataloging and cross refrencing if any of you could help a guy out?

Thankyou Mike


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## Karazenpo

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 were developed by whom?
> 
> Katas 1 - 6 were developed by whom?
> 
> My understanding is that some of the Pinans/Pinions are traditional Karate Kata or emulate them with their movements. Where the "Katas 1 -6" are the Self-Defense Katas containing most of the techniques of the original Kajukenbo system (Palama sets put together?)
> 
> I just wanted a formalized list for cataloging and cross refrencing if any of you could help a guy out?
> 
> Thankyou Mike



Hi Mike, in the original Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu the forms were called pinans. They were 1-5 but not what you think and not the Okinawan 5 pinan series either. They are what in Shaolin Kempo Karate referred to as Katas 1-5. Shaolin Kempo's #1 pinan is Shotokan's Taikyoku shodan (first cause form or the student's first look at Shotokan). #2 pinan was inspired by Taikyoku shodan, nidan and sandan, a sort of eclectic blending. #3, 4, and 5 were Mas Oyama's versions of Shotokan's Heian 3, 4 and 5. The Heian series was of course Funakoshi's version of the Okinawan 5 pinan series. By the way, Shaolin Kempo's kata #4 was inspired by Shotokan's Heian 2 which in Okinawan karate is their Pinan 1. Wow, gets confusing, doesn't it? lol. Kata #6 was created by Gm. S. George Pesare based on the original combinations of Karazenpo, the other five were put together by Sijo Gascon, the late Professor Walter L.N. Godin and I believe #3 Kata was a contribution of Karazenpo black belt David Kamalani. The series called katas in Shaolin Kempo but pinans in  the early Karazenpo all contained elements of the older 'original method' Kajukenbo. Almost forgot, Statue of the Crane is an adaptation of Okinawan karate's Rohai (Symbol of the White Heron) and was added by Gm. Pesare. I think I covered all your questions and good luck sorting all that out, lol. Professor Joe Shuras


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## RRouuselot

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 were developed by whom?......



Itosu Anko developed them in Okinawa about 1900.

It is pronounce "pee-non" (Pinan) 






			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> .. The Heian series was of course Funakoshi's version of the Okinawan 5 pinan series.



Uh, actually no.Funakoshis teacher Itosu developed the Pinan 1-5 katathey are the same thing..Heian is just the Japanese way to say the Okinawan word.


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## Karazenpo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Itosu Anko developed them in Okinawa about 1900.
> 
> It is pronounce "pee-non" (Pinan)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, actually no&#8230;.Funakoshi&#8217;s teacher Itosu developed the Pinan 1-5 kata&#8230;they are the same thing&#8230;..Heian is just the Japanese way to say the Okinawan word.



Hello Robert, I respectfully disagree. Itosu is correct as far as the Okinawan series goes but that wasn't the question. My post stated Funakoshi took the original Okinawan 5 pinan series and altered them to fit the perspective of the Japanese people and hense his Shotokan Karate and he re-named his altered version 'Heian'. He even reversed the numbers of forms 1 & 2, feeling that pinan 1 was too difficult as a first form in the series. This is all undisputed. He did the same thing with Okinawan's Rohai (symbol of the white heron), altering it and re-naming it Meikyo (mirror of the soul). They are not the 'same thing', if they were, they'd be no Shotokan! I specifically stated in my post that this was not the original Okinawan 5 pinan series Mike was asking about, it was the Shaolin Kempo Karate version of the Villari system. This 5 pinan series uses Taikyoku shodan as #1 pinan, #2 pinan is a 'hybrid' of Shotokan's Taikyoku shodan, nidan & sandan, SKK pinans 3, 4 & 5 were based on Mas Oyama's versions of Shotokan's Heian #3, 4 & 5. The Heian term is NOT in name only, as I stated above, these forms were altered by Funakoshi for his Shotokan system,  which is the difference between Okinawan karate and Japanese karate.  Remember, I posted the explaination is quite confusing, lol. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

PS: Actually Robert, even the Itosu credit is controversial depending on who  you talk to. Take a look at this I dug out of  my research files:

Also Known As: Heian, Heinan. Meaning: Way of peace (literally, "Great Peace", sometimes translated as "Calm Mind", "Peaceful Mind", "Serenity", or "Security.") 

History: The Pinan kata series was introduced into the Okinawan School District karate program as gym training from 1902 to 1907 by Ankoh Itosu. The history of this kata is somewhat controversial - Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu stylists claim that Itosu developed all five kata using either the kata Passai and Kusanku. The Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu tradition states that Itosu only developed Pinan 5 by himself. (It is curious to note that Chosin Chibana, Itosu's senior disciple and Kobayashi founder, taught only Pinan 5 and Naihanchi 3 out of respect for Itosu's authorship.) Hohan Soken (family inheritor of Bushi Matsumura's style) taught only Pinan 1 and 2; saying that Matsumura had devised these two and laid framework for Pinan 3 and 4. 

Gichin Funikoshi revised the order of 1 and 2, changed the kata name to Heian, and initiated deeper stances and higher kicks. He also replaced front kicks with side kicks and altered other moves in the series. Funakoshi was so well known for teaching the Pinan series that he was often referred to as the "Pinan Sensei." Interesting enough, he did not learn the Pinans from Itsou as he had already finished his training with the great mejin before they were developed. 

According to several sources, Funikoshi was first introduced to the Pinans during a trip to Osaka where he received instruction from Kenwa Mabuni, the founder of Shito-Ryu. 

During his subsequent visits he learned a number of the kata from Mabuni that would eventually be taught in the Shotokan system. Regardless of their origin or lineage, there is no doubt that today the Pinan Series is practiced world-wide by Okinawan, Japanese, as well as some Korean styles.


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## monkey-a-go-go

Yep on all accounts, then theres the Channan thing. The low side kicks were Funakoshi's touch. The Okinawan pinan kata are finally getting some respect Lol. People are coming to realize that they aren't 'school kids' karate after all. But thats a whole nother can of worms. 
BTW has anyone else noticed how the traditional kata names got twisted in Hawaiian kenpo?

BallistikMike: Good thoughts on the Villari thread


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## monkey-a-go-go

Hey you too Prof. Shuras LOL.


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## Karazenpo

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Yep on all accounts, then theres the Channan thing. The low side kicks were Funakoshi's touch. The Okinawan pinan kata are finally getting some respect Lol. People are coming to realize that they aren't 'school kids' karate after all. But thats a whole nother can of worms.
> BTW has anyone else noticed how the traditional kata names got twisted in Hawaiian kenpo?
> 
> BallistikMike: Good thoughts on the Villari thread



Yeah, about the traditional kata names and Hawaiian kenpo? I think that's because there is no doubt in my mind that our system did indeed come from Okinawan Shorei ryu Kempo Karate of Nabura Tanamaha, a 1st or 2nd generation black belt of Choki Motobu via James Mitose. Then, we also have Mitose's close connection to Gm. Robert Trias of Shorei ryu (now known as Shuri-te). Remember, we are a subsystem of Kajukenbo and originally Kajukenbo called their forms Pinans (later changed to Palama sets). You also have not only Mitose teaching Naihanchi but later you have Professor Thomas Young (Mitose's senior black belt) asking permission to add the 5 pinan series from from kenpo's Bobby Lowe after studying Oyama's system. There is no doubt that we are strongly based in Okinawan karate, now I'm waiting to see proof of our ties to Japan and the Shaka-in and Japanese Kosho but the more I wait the less I think it's going to happen. Know what I mean? Some proof is coming up in documents by Dr. Ted Sumner (San Jose Kenpo forum) that Mitose had been in Japan. Dr. Sumner is a 'stand up guy' and wouldn't knowingly put anything false on his website, however, there still isn't anything showing Mitose  actually studied Kosho or any martial art in Japan. Hey, it's fine with me, whether our roots are in Okinawa or Japan or a mixing of both, who cares? as long as the truth comes out. That's all guys like John Bishop and I ever asked for...the truth!


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## Karazenpo

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Hey you too Prof. Shuras LOL.



Thanks, Monkey. Hey, you gotta tell me. How the hell did you come up with the handle: monkey-a-go-go?, LOl.


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## Matt

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 were developed by whom?



Well, both Joe and RRousselot are correct, unfortunately, they are talking about different but sort of overlapping things.
There's some general information at:
http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/kata_pinan.htm
I'll try to fill in a little color commentary around the comments by the two gentlemen. 
Okay, here goes[pedantic]. 
1.) Heian / Pinan: Heian is (afaik) a contraction of Heiwa and Antasu?(sp). Peace and Calmness in Japanese. Pinan is a compound word made of the characters in chinese for Peace (P'ing) and Calmness (An). Same kanji, different language. 

2.) In Funakoshi's early works(ca.1926), like _Karate Jutsu_, he performs the pinan series, in the original order, with the original (front only) kicks, and original stances. The 'shotokan kata' (heian) as we know it evolved later. 

3.) In kempo from this lineage, we used a specific method for including material in our curriculum. I like to call it, 'steal everything that is not nailed down, and come back later that night with some friends, a crowbar and a pickup truck for the rest'. 

4.) In Hawaii, Okinawan karate had arrived no later than 1905. This means that Naihanchi would be the beginner kata for many of the early karate devotees. This does not include goju.  However, Japanese karate would not arrive for another 25 years or so so anyone who might have had the series would have had the pinan and most likely not the heian in the early days. 

5.) Mitose taught  intially only naihanchi shodan. Other karate katas were added *as karate folks joined the club and taught the other members*

6.) Chow's school used an I pattern for basics (much like the taikyoku series) and it was called 'kung line' work. 
[/pedantic]

[wild assumption]
7.) As far as the pinan/pinion naming conventions for the kajukenbo and shaolin kempo forms, I believe at the time, pinions was used as a catch all phrase for forms/kata in some quarters. Somewhat like using a brand name like kleenex as opposed to facial tissue. As in,"Hey, get me a kleenex and show me your pinions.' In fact, I think the alternate spellings are an indication of how it entered the local jargon. 
[/wild assumption]



> Katas 1 - 6 were developed by whom?


Joe's pretty much covered the conventional wisdom on these ones as well. 


> My understanding is that some of the Pinans/Pinions are traditional Karate Kata or emulate them with their movements. Where the "Katas 1 -6" are the Self-Defense Katas containing most of the techniques of the original Kajukenbo system (Palama sets put together?)



Sort of. You get the gist. There are some overlapping kajukenbo tecniques, but mostly it's reformulated even down at the techniques level. If you were to see the first bunch of palamas forms, you wouldn't necessarily see 'combination 26', but you would recognize a bunch of movements. The forms wouldn't look too 'out of place'. 



> I just wanted a formalized list for cataloging and cross refrencing if any of you could help a guy out?
> 
> Thankyou Mike



Okay,

List Time:
Caution: These names are only accepted in Shaolin Kempo / Karazenpo. Traditional Karate guys will get a migraine following this. 

*One Pinan*
Real karate name: Taikyoku shodan
Made up by:Funakoshi
Brought in by: at various times, almost everybody, most recently probably Nick Cerio

*Two Pinan*
Real karate name: It doesn't have one. There is a pinan nidan, but this isn't it. 
Made up by:Nick Cerio
Brought in by:Nick Cerio
What is it? It is a mix of the chow 'kung line drill" the basics Nick Cerio learned in his hawaii trips, and Taikyoku nidan and sandan. 

*Three, Four, Five Pinan*
Real karate name: Pinan Sandan,Pinan Yondan, Pinan Godan,  but the forms have been changed a bit. 
Made up byrobably Itosu (see link up near top of post)
Brought in by:Nick Cerio

* 1 through 5 Kata*
Real karate name: None - these are strictly karazenpo / shaolin kempo forms. However, just to insure confusion, these were called 'pinans'.  
Made up byrobably Victor Gascon, Walter Godin, maybe Dave Kamalani.  However: Evidence is a smidgen spotty on ownership at the moment. I had a friend go do a seminar at a school of the late Dave Kamalani's lineage, and he said that they did not do these forms.
Brought in by:Gascon/Godin, Pesare?

*6 Kata*
Real karate name: None - these are strictly karazenpo / shaolin kempo forms. However, just to insure confusion, these were called 'pinans'.  
Made up by:George Pesare 
Brought in by:Same. There are some minor differences in the Shaolin Kempo version from his.

Whew!

Matt


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## RRouuselot

As long as we are getting down and dirty.....I have also read that Funakoshi didn't learn 2 of the Pinan from Itosu....he learned them from Yabiku Moden. 
However, as for changing the kata.....Funakoshi's students were mainly responsible for the big changes. there is a group in Okinawa run by a friend of mine whos father studied under Funakoshi and they still practice the "Funakoshi versions". Having seen both the Funakoshi versions from the Okinawan group and comparing them to the Shotokan/JKA versions was a benifit to understand the differences. 
Funakoshi switched Pinan 1 and 2 not because the Japanese were too stupid but because the original Pinan 2 has more basic stances and  makes learning the other kata easier because of it.


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## Karazenpo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> As long as we are getting down and dirty.....I have also read that Funakoshi didn't learn 2 of the Pinan from Itosu....he learned them from Yabiku Moden.
> However, as for changing the kata.....Funakoshi's students were mainly responsible for the big changes. there is a group in Okinawa run by a friend of mine whos father studied under Funakoshi and they still practice the "Funakoshi versions". Having seen both the Funakoshi versions from the Okinawan group and comparing them to the Shotokan/JKA versions was a benifit to understand the differences.
> Funakoshi switched Pinan 1 and 2 not because the Japanese were too stupid but because the original Pinan 2 has more basic stances and  makes learning the other kata easier because of it.



Wow, chill out man, no one is trying get 'down and dirty', everyone is just pooling their information to draw the most accurate answer to the questions, that's all. I certainly didn't say the Japanese were too stupid on the Funakoshi number switch! Here's what I said:

He even reversed the numbers of forms 1 & 2, feeling that pinan 1 was too difficult as a first form in the series. 

Here's what you stated:

Funakoshi switched Pinan 1 and 2 not because the Japanese were too stupid but because the original Pinan 2 has more basic stances and  makes learning the other kata easier because of it.[/QUOTE]

So I say: One of us says #2  is easier to learn than #1 (you), the other (me) says #1 too difficult in comparison to #2. Yuh?

I say: What's the difference from what I stated and you stated? None! 

Finally, regardless of who alterred what, the fact is Shotokan is different than tradtional Okinawan karate or it wouldn't be Shotokan and it HAS Funakoshi's fingerprints on it. Gichen Funakoshi is the undisputed founder of Shotokan Karate, therefore it is reasonable to believe that he had made alterations to the forms, if there's another story, fine, which there usually is in the history of all martial arts systems but nobody's intentions was to get down and dirty! I just wanted to clear the air on this. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## Karazenpo

Matt stated:

1 through 5 Kata
Real karate name: None - these are strictly karazenpo / shaolin kempo forms. However, just to insure confusion, these were called 'pinans'. 
Made up byrobably Victor Gascon, Walter Godin, maybe Dave Kamalani. However: Evidence is a smidgen spotty on ownership at the moment. I had a friend go do a seminar at a school of the late Dave Kamalani's lineage, and he said that they did not do these forms.
Brought in by:Gascon/Godin, Pesare?

Hi Matt, I got that Kamalani information on #3 kata from brother Peter Teymourez in California. I'm sure you know of him. Peter is very anal on everything he reports but it would be interesting to check out further. Give it a shot. Who knows, curriculums were known to change often back then, especially with Sifu Leoning and I'm sure Professor Godin's Chinese Kenpo didn't use the original Karazenpo katas either but that was my source, other than that I heard it no where else. The funny part of Professor Cerio's pinan series additions was that he told me he got them from Mas Oyama's book! To this day, some websites have him listed as a student of Oyama but he never met the man!, lol. Hey, you have to give him credit, he pulled no punches, he was honest about it!, lol.


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## RRouuselot

.


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## RRouuselot

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Wow, chill out man, no one is trying get 'down and dirty', everyone is just pooling their information to draw the most accurate answer to the questions, that's all. I certainly didn't say the Japanese were too stupid on the Funakoshi number switch! Here's what I said:
> 
> He even reversed the numbers of forms 1 & 2, feeling that pinan 1 was too difficult as a first form in the series.
> 
> Here's what you stated:
> 
> Funakoshi switched Pinan 1 and 2 not because the Japanese were too stupid but because the original Pinan 2 has more basic stances and  makes learning the other kata easier because of it.
> 
> So I say: One of us says #2  is easier to learn than #1 (you), the other (me) says #1 too difficult in comparison to #2. Yuh?
> 
> I say: What's the difference from what I stated and you stated? None!
> 
> Finally, regardless of who alterred what, the fact is Shotokan is different than tradtional Okinawan karate or it wouldn't be Shotokan and it HAS Funakoshi's fingerprints on it. Gichen Funakoshi is the undisputed founder of Shotokan Karate, therefore it is reasonable to believe that he had made alterations to the forms, if there's another story, fine, which there usually is in the history of all martial arts systems but nobody's intentions was to get down and dirty! I just wanted to clear the air on this. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras







Actually there is no reason to chill out since it was a JOKE..

What I said was Funakoshi taught pinan 2 first so people could learn more stances from a single kata thereby expediting their learning of other kata (using those same stances) in the system. You said he taught it because it was easier.when actually the reason he taught it was so the students could learn faster..not because it was easier..of course I am just quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi so it probably means nothing.  
Regarding his altering kata.yup he did, but not to the extent his son and students did. He even wrote that the karate he studied as a youth was not the same karate as was being taught in Tokyo. He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous.most likely referring to his student Ohtuska (Wado founder) who was teaching/combing jujutsu moves.


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## Karazenpo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Actually there is no reason to chill out since it was a JOKE..
> 
> What I said was Funakoshi taught pinan 2 first so people could learn more stances from a single kata thereby expediting their learning of other kata (using those same stances) in the system. You said he taught it because it was easier.when actually the reason he taught it was so the students could learn faster..not because it was easier..of course I am just quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi so it probably means nothing.
> Regarding his altering kata.yup he did, but not to the extent his son and students did. He even wrote that the karate he studied as a youth was not the same karate as was being taught in Tokyo. He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous.most likely referring to his student Ohtuska (Wado founder) who was teaching/combing jujutsu moves.



In all do respect, you're getting way too sensitive over this. I'll say this one more time and then I'm dropping it. I said it was EASIER, you said, the actual reason is because students could learn it FASTER. THE REASON THEY COULD LEARN IT FASTER IS BECAUSE IT WAS "EASIER"!!! And no one ever said "STUPID"!. Now, what part of that don't you understand? and quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi is like saying I got this information from my friend's uncle's friend. In a court of law we call that heresay.........but I'm also not saying there is no truth to your statement either but that IS hearsay. Look, no one wants to argue and throw shots at each other, especially me, we're just trying to have a friendly discussion as we always do, share knowledge and theories in a search for the truth. That's all, fair and simple.


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## RRouuselot

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> 1) In all do respect, you're getting way too sensitive over this. I'll say this one more time and then I'm dropping it. 2) I said it was EASIER, you said, the actual reason is because students could learn it faster. THE REASON THEY COULD LEARN IT FASTER IS BECAUSE IT WAS "EASIER"!!! 3) And no one ever said "STUPID"!. Now, what part of that don't you understand? 4) and quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi is like saying I got this information from my friend's uncle's friend. In a court of law we call that heresay.........but I'm also not saying there is no truth to your statement either but that IS hearsay. 5) Look, no one wants to argue and throw shots at each other, especially me, we're just trying to have a friendly discussion as we always do, share knowledge and theories in a search for the truth. That's all, fair and simple.




1) Man you really have no idea what I am saying here..are we writing in the same language???
I never got sensitive about it..I said as long as we are getting down and dirty meaning as long as we are throwing out facts..try and learn what sarcasim is. 

Again here is what I said:
What I said was Funakoshi taught pinan 2 first so people could learn more stances from a single kata thereby expediting their learning of *other* kata (using those same stances) in the system.

2) You said: THE REASON THEY COULD LEARN IT FASTER IS BECAUSE IT WAS "EASIER"!!!

I never said Pinan 2 was easier than any other kata.. I was not talking about learning THAT kata faster. I said learning that kata with most of the stances in it made learning the system faster not the kata.your comments says he taught it so they could learn that  single kata faster..that is NOT what I am saying. 

3) I said stupid. 

4) here again you misread..I wrote: of course I am just quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi *so it probably means nothing. 
*
5) I just wish you would read my posts more carefully before answering them.  You seem to be confused as to what my point is.


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## Karazenpo

IF Funakoshi stated this as written in one of the posts: "He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous" then it is obvious he had no real combative experience whatsoever. I'm not downing him, he was a great pioneer, just stating the obvious. EPAK doesn't have grappling in their original curriculum, per se, but most that I know cross train in it and cetainly don't think adding it is ridiculous. I grant you there are specific & 'hidden' techniques in these systems that can be readily adapted to grappling but still, there is nothing like 'hitting the mats' for an all out bout to prepare you for reality fighting. Traditional karate is not a 'live' art but Judo & other forms of grappling, are, not to mention western boxing and kickboxing.  Imho, 'Live' arts are an integral part of reality training. Just my thoughts.


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## Karazenpo

Okay, Robert. You have summed things up here and this is my major point to your posts. You stated: "try and learn what sarcasim is." That is my point. I do know what it is, I recognized it in your responses and there is No need for sarcastic remarks on this forum. Yes, it does happen sometimes, but I feel the VAST MAJORITY of us agree there is no need for sarcasm in friendly discussions and I stand by what I posted and my only language is 'English', lol. It's funny, I was going to ask you to read my posts more carefully also, lol, 'parallel thinking', I guess, lol.


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## monkey-a-go-go

The "Curse of the Internet" strikes again! LoL. I took the comment "Down and Dirty" as that everyone was getting technical. just a little deeper lol. Everyone interprets the dialogue differently. Thats why i am reluctant to post anything for fear it will be taken out of context and also try to be super polite. Every one has been awesome coming out with the info on this thread.

RRouuselot: Agreed-Gigo Funakoshi and the others really shaped japanese karate etc. There seems to be pockets of funakoshi original pre war style around the world - canada-philipines etc. Any other hints on what makes it distinct from your experience? I imagine it is like the karate jutsu books style. www.karate.org.yu has tons of old style karate info including pics of funakoshi's closer to original style showing pinan and naihanchi if anyone wants to check it out. 


Karazenpo:  monkey-a-go-go=too much caffeine+motobu+saru+"monkey dance"-hawaiian kenpo term. corny i know. 
With the kata names in kenpo- There seems to be no end in the different spellings of naihanchi- guess its oral tradition. Nabura Tanamaha-when did issuing the black belt rank become popular? I thought that was  later and still not prevalent with okinawans? Is that A&E special going to have anything on Mizuho's impact on hawaii's karate to the best of your knowledge? To me his link is very interesting. I wish the tracy's people would give their take on him. One last thing- Can you imagine all the sour puss's on "traditional" karate guys faces when they hear something like how cerio got his some forms form oyama's books?! Lol. Hey this stuff IMHO ain't rocket science. People would be surprised to learn where alot of "traditional" info came from historically. The wheel keeps getting perpetually re-invented.

 Matt: Great stuff.


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## RRouuselot

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> 1) IF Funakoshi stated this as written in one of the posts: "He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous" then it is obvious he had no real combative experience whatsoever. I'm not downing him, he was a great pioneer, just stating the obvious. EPAK doesn't have grappling in their original curriculum, per se, but most that I know cross train in it and cetainly don't think adding it is ridiculous. I grant you there are specific & 'hidden' techniques in these systems that can be readily adapted to grappling but still, there is nothing like 'hitting the mats' for an all out bout to prepare you for reality fighting. 2) Traditional karate is not a 'live' art but Judo & other forms of grappling, are, not to mention western boxing and kickboxing.  Imho, 'Live' arts are an integral part of reality training. Just my thoughts.




1)	Funakoshi was pretty much of a wuss.which has been documented by several people that knew him.Motobu Choki chumped him out in front of Funakoshis own studentsthere are several stories of how Funakoshi was writing checks with his mouth his *** couldnt cash. Prety funny reading!!!
2)	Actually you are mistaken. What I consider Traditional karate is a live art at least the art I train is.dont think so??? just throw on some bogu gear and go full out no pulled punches sometime like we do.or do randori with strikes and joint locks like we doits tippy-tap arts that practice point sparring that are not live.those arent  Traditional karate.


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## Karazenpo

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> The "Curse of the Internet" strikes again! LoL. I took the comment "Down and Dirty" as that everyone was getting technical. just a little deeper lol. Everyone interprets the dialogue differently. Thats why i am reluctant to post anything for fear it will be taken out of context and also try to be super polite. Every one has been awesome coming out with the info on this thread.
> 
> RRouuselot: Agreed-Gigo Funakoshi and the others really shaped japanese karate etc. There seems to be pockets of funakoshi original pre war style around the world - canada-philipines etc. Any other hints on what makes it distinct from your experience? I imagine it is like the karate jutsu books style. www.karate.org.yu has tons of old style karate info including pics of funakoshi's closer to original style showing pinan and naihanchi if anyone wants to check it out.
> 
> 
> Karazenpo:  monkey-a-go-go=too much caffeine+motobu+saru+"monkey dance"-hawaiian kenpo term. corny i know.
> With the kata names in kenpo- There seems to be no end in the different spellings of naihanchi- guess its oral tradition. Nabura Tanamaha-when did issuing the black belt rank become popular? I thought that was  later and still not prevalent with okinawans? Is that A&E special going to have anything on Mizuho's impact on hawaii's karate to the best of your knowledge? To me his link is very interesting. I wish the tracy's people would give their take on him. One last thing- Can you imagine all the sour puss's on "traditional" karate guys faces when they hear something like how cerio got his some forms form oyama's books?! Lol. Hey this stuff IMHO ain't rocket science. People would be surprised to learn where alot of "traditional" info came from historically. The wheel keeps getting perpetually re-invented.
> 
> Matt: Great stuff.



Thanks, my friend, now I know how you got your 'handle', it was always a mystery to me!, lol. Yeah, I would have to assume (but you know what they say about assuming) that Mizuho would have a spot in the documentary, he would have to, but I'll check with Professor Abregana when I have a chance. I thought you'd like that Oyama book thing!, lol. Hey, it worked, we're still practicing them and teaching them going on four decades now!, lol.


----------



## BallistikMike

Ok to formalize what I think I have here is below :


Pinan/Pinion #1
Taikyoku #1

Pinan/Pinion #2
Parts of Taikyoku #2 & #3, Kung Line Drills & Basics from the instruction Nick Cerio received while in Hawaii.

Pinan/Pinion #3
The Pinan kata #3 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #4
The Pinan kata #4 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #5
The Pinan kata #5 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Side note - as a reference the Okinawan Karate Pinan series 1 - 5 as well as the Shotokan Heian series 1 - 5 kata can be referenced. Note - Shotokan Karate switched Pinan #1 to Heian #2 and Pinan #2 to Heian #1.

Statue of the Crane
Another variation of an Okinawan Karate Kata called Rohai. Now I know there are a few Okinawan variations of Rohai Small and Large come to mind. I need to research this one a bit more.

That shores up the Traditional Karate Kata I believe.

Now onto the Kajukenbo/Kenpo Kata

Kata 1 - 5
Kata 1 - 5 also refered to as Pinions in Karazenpo where some of the confusion may lie in names when cross referncing the various systems.

These Kata are believed to be developed by Victor Gascon, Walter Godin and Dave Kamalani.

The Palama Sets 1 - 12 ? can be cross referenced because I think it is 1 - 8 that help make up the Kata 1 - 5 along with various self-defense techniques and punch counters (combinations in SKK)

Kata #6
Developed by George Pesare with slight variations throughout the Shaolin Kempo curriculum.

Hansuki
Developed by Bill Chin, taught to Nick Cerio and then brought into Shaolin Kempo Karate by Fred Villari in a strange manner. From what I gather Nick Cerio was in Florida? and Fred Villari was taught this Kata by Nick Cerios brother without Nick Cerios permission.

This may account for the variations in the Shaolin Kempo curiculum. Also atristic interpretation may also be at fault here.

Summary
Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 in Shaolin Kempo Karate
- Not the same as Pinan/Heian 1 & 2 in traditional Okinanwan Karate. 3,4 & 5 are the same with slight variations.

Kata 1 - 5 refered to in Karazenpo as pinans/pinions in the "old days" 

Kata 6

Statue of the Crane

Hansuki

That would some up the basic curiculum kata before the NCK/Villaris Kempo changes when they split and formed their own systems?


----------



## RRouuselot

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> RRouuselot: Agreed-Gigo Funakoshi and the others really shaped japanese karate etc. There seems to be pockets of funakoshi original pre war style around the world - canada-philipines etc. Any other hints on what makes it distinct from your experience? I imagine it is like the karate jutsu books style.
> 
> Matt: Great stuff.



Well for starters the stances in Funakoshis karate are as deep as they are now. He also didnt use the back stancekind of a giant neko ashi dachi..many of the hand postions in the kata differ from his original style. 
One important thingthe photos of the stances in karate do nyumon are NOT the way Funakoshi taught them. The bozos in that book are doing something totally different.


Something from that URL:

_"According to several sources, Funikoshi was first introduced to the Pinans during a trip to Osaka where he received instruction from Kenwa Mabuni, the founder of Shito-Ryu.

During his subsequent visits he learned a number of the kata from Mabuni that would eventually be taught in the Shotokan system. Regardless of their origin or lineage, there is no doubt that today the Pinan Series is practiced world-wide by Okinawan, Japanese, as well as some Korean styles."_


----------



## monkey-a-go-go

Rousselot: As I understand it Funakoshi thought otsuhka had too much jiujistu in his karate. Funakoshi  indicated he knew grappling but thought otsuka took things out balance. Anyway I am losing my train of thought here. I am sure I originaly had a point. Anyway I get what you mean.


----------



## Karazenpo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)	Funakoshi was pretty much of a wuss.which has been documented by several people that knew him.Motobu Choki chumped him out in front of Funakoshis own studentsthere are several stories of how Funakoshi was writing checks with his mouth his *** couldnt cash. Prety funny reading!!!
> 2)	Actually you are mistaken. What I consider Traditional karate is a live art at least the art I train is.dont think so??? just throw on some bogu gear and go full out no pulled punches sometime like we do.or do randori with strikes and joint locks like we doits tippy-tap arts that practice point sparring that are not live.those arent  Traditional karate.



Hi Robert, Yeah, I feel the same way about Funakoshi but I implied it once and upset some people so I was tying to be politcally correct, lol. I also heard the Motobu story and always felt Motobu was the man because he wasn't afraid to use his skills for real. You can always put more faith in someone who teaches you that has been there and done that! Know what I mean? I understand your point in Traditional karate from your viewpoint being a live art but it is my fault for not clarifying my position. What I mean't was in true karate, there is no protection so you can't use the bone breaking aspects, the full power vital area strikes which would result in serious injury or death, therefore, not getting a feel of the FULL effect of what you're doing. Know what I mean? In boxing or kickboxing, the goal is not to kill, cripple or maim but to knock the other guy out. You are allowed to use everything in your boxing arsenal at full power & full speed, so you have better a understanding of what techniques are working for you. In grappling, it's essentailly the same thing, you can even choke the guy out to some degree, just ask Gene Labelle, lol. Good discussion, Take  care, "Joe"


----------



## monkey-a-go-go

RRouuselot: ok -we're on the same page. While Funakoshi wasn't a fighter I don't see him has a wuss though. It took alot of determination to take on the task to promote karate like he did. he did like to talk though. As much as I appreciate Motobu I think there is some viability to question what the old timers were willing to teach him and to what extent. Who knows...


----------



## The Kai

Funakoshi was a better figurehead to give Karate a good image when it first came out.


I think the art of Karate is rather recent (as far as being popular) so that even as littel as 50 yrs ago there was mystery, confusion.  With small paockets of karate'kas, no resources.  kata names re bound to get a little blurred
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

Todd wrote: Funakoshi was a better figurehead to give Karate a good image when it first came out.

Hi Todd, I heard the same thing. The powers-to-be at the time in Okinawa thought Motobu too crude and unpolished. I'm not saying that's true but that's just what I've read. Politics, politics, politics..................


----------



## The Kai

In a article about Motobu-there is a story of how Motobu defeated a boxer.  Except in the newpaper the next day was a drawing of a very Funakoshish loooking fighter (in the begining stance from pinan 2 of all things) facing the boxer!

T-


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> In a article about Motobu-there is a story of how Motobu defeated a boxer.  Except in the newpaper the next day was a drawing of a very Funakoshish loooking fighter (in the begining stance from pinan 2 of all things) facing the boxer!
> 
> T-



I saw a copy of that Todd. He was posed in the opening high/middle block position of Karazenpo's fourth form. (#4 kata in Shaolin Kempo Karate, #1 Pinan in Okinawan karate and Heian #2 in Shotokan). From what I researched when Motobu saw it, he was livid and went looking for Funakoshi. Allegedly they had an encounter and Funakoshi came out on the short end of it. Like I said before, I don't know how accurate these stories are but that's what's out there so I still remain open minded on them. Also, it's been said the boxer was a heavyweight 'Russian Boxing Champion'. Russian- yes, heavyweight-I believe so, Champion-embellished, from what I understand he was a carnival boxer, still a tough dude I bet since he did take on all challengers. Choki Motobu was one tough S.O.B., I think that fact stands undisputed! Did you know he believed in fighting with the strong side forward with consecutive striking (striking off the same hand)? Here's something to think about. The information I have is the relationship of Mitose's Kenpo with Nabura Tanamaha (Motobu lineage) and Robert Trias (Motobu lineage). Now, Chow was Mitose's student and we go to Emperado, Leoning, Gascon-Karazenpo. Look at #2 combination in  Karazenpo's Shaolin Kempo, consecutive striking of the right side forward hand. Cerio makes several trips to Hawaii and does some training with Chow and begins working on Nick Cerio's Kenpo. He takes #2 combination (consecutive strikes off the strong side), revises the opening block to a softer and outward motion instead of hard inward but most of all, adds three more hand srikes, all consecutively off the right side forward, further emphasizing the Motobu concept. It appears there's a connection there. The only other I heard of that fought strong side forward (right side providing you're a right hander and vice-versa) was Bruce Lee influenced by the Wing Chun system and that was long after Motobu. Something to think about...............


----------



## The Kai

Just a little Question o.k?

I heard that the left fighting stance did not get popular till the arts came to america.  Due to the general knowledge of boxing among the american public. For familiarity and defenses usa adoptedthe Lefty foot forward
Todd


----------



## BallistikMike

The Kai said:
			
		

> Just a little Question o.k?
> 
> I heard that the left fighting stance did not get popular till the arts came to america. Due to the general knowledge of boxing among the american public. For familiarity and defenses usa adoptedthe Lefty foot forward
> Todd


Yes I believe there is some truth in this. It would be logical because of boxing and even wrestling keeping the strong hand back (most people being right handed).

Before boxing was made into the modern day sport it is today, it used tohave footwork very similar to step throughs and switching while punching. Also the fighting stance watch more more ridgid and deeper then by today's standards.

Point is that the strong hand was held back because an old bare knuckler would step through with his right foot delivering that right cross/overhead after the "jab" set it up and reeled them back or "arched" them.

High mobile stances do have a place, but knockdown dragout bar fights mainly come to delivering powerfull shots in rooted stances. Not really deep, but not high and mobile.I have been in the bar business some 16 years now and seen/been in my share of them. I never bought into the high mobile stances, I also never bought into strong side back or forward.

The situation dictates it plus personal preference and your ability to deliver effective strikes under combat conditions (fighting).

More then likely Motubo was good at his strong side forward and many, many emulated it. Like most intiial learning in ones training.


----------



## John Bishop

The Kai said:
			
		

> Just a little Question o.k?
> 
> I heard that the left fighting stance did not get popular till the arts came to america. Due to the general knowledge of boxing among the american public. For familiarity and defenses usa adoptedthe Lefty foot forward
> Todd


I don't know if your refering to Asian arts in general, or the arts that came down from Kajukenbo.  Example: Karazenpo, Shaolin Kempo, Cerio's Kenpo, etc.
If you are talking about Kajukenbo and it's offshoots, then yes boxing stances, techniques, and punches were put into the system in Hawaii.  
All of the Kajukenbo founders boxed to some extent.  Like on the mainland, boxing offered a chance for poor kids to escape poverty.
The founders felt at the time, if they were to encounter a "trained fighter" he most likely had boxing training, since martial arts were so rare.  
So "punch counters" and some "grab arts" were designed against a boxers right cross, hook, and left jab-right cross combinations.  
They also felt that a boxers fighting stance offered more mobility, and was suited better for close-in fighting.  
So Kajukenbo hand strikes have the common karate thrust punches and snap punches.  But you also have the western boxing punches and combinations, along with the limb destruction cutting type strikes (empty hand) from escrima.


----------



## RRouuselot

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Todd wrote: Funakoshi was a better figurehead to give Karate a good image when it first came out.
> 
> Hi Todd, I heard the same thing. The powers-to-be at the time in Okinawa thought Motobu too crude and unpolished. I'm not saying that's true but that's just what I've read. Politics, politics, politics..................



Here some facts about that subject.

Funakoshi was never formally asked to go to Tokyo. He had a friend living and working  at one of the Universities in Tokyo and upon hearing that Funakoshi was going to be transferred (Funakoshi was a school teacher and they are often rotated in Japan) to some podunk little island off the coast of Okinawa his suggested he come and work in Tokyo. 
Funakoshi being rather talented at expanding the truth made it sound as if he was invited to teach karate on the mainland. (Funakoshi was a notorious liar and was punked out for it on occasion). IF he was invited then one has to ask why was he a janitor/handyman.instead of being giving a job as some sort of coach..The reason being is that there was never an Okinawan committee that decided to send Funakoshi.he just accepted his friends invite. 
One reason, and probably the ONLY reason it was better for Funakoshi to go than Motobu is the fact that Motobu didnt speak Japanese and Funakoshi did which would have made teaching karate fairly difficult for Motobu. 

Motobu has got to be one of the most misunderstood figures in Okinawan karate. 
He was not formally taught his family style because he was the son of his fathers mistress instead of the son of his fathers wife making him only half brothers with Choyu Motobu. He did however train with his uncle.I have no idea what style it was though. Being born out of wedlock is one of the reasons he did not receive the school education his ½ brother s did. 
Being the offspring of someones mistress most likely gave him some problems growing up in an old fashioned society like the Edo and Meiji eras. I have read that Motobu never actually started a fight but never backed down from one either. I dont know how true that is but he did tell his students to always be polite and courteous. 

So there was no committee, no politics to decide whether Motobu or Funakoshi should go and teach in Tokyo. 
I have to say that Funakoshi did have 2 advantages over most Okinawans. 1. He could speak Japanese and it made it easier for him to be accepted by the Japanese, and also made it easier for him to spread rumors and lies about Motobu which he did by the way. And 2. there was the WWII fast approaching which meant martial instruction was in demand. Funakoshi was in the right place at the right time. Its kind of funny that many of Funakoshis students switched over and trained with Motobu instead. It most likely pissed Funakoshi off to no end.


----------



## James Kovacich

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here some facts about that subject.
> 
> Funakoshi was never formally asked to go to Tokyo. He had a friend living and working  at one of the Universities in Tokyo and upon hearing that Funakoshi was going to be transferred (Funakoshi was a school teacher and they are often rotated in Japan) to some podunk little island off the coast of Okinawa his suggested he come and work in Tokyo.
> Funakoshi being rather talented at expanding the truth made it sound as if he was invited to teach karate on the mainland. (Funakoshi was a notorious liar and was punked out for it on occasion). IF he was invited then one has to ask why was he a janitor/handyman.instead of being giving a job as some sort of coach..The reason being is that there was never an Okinawan committee that decided to send Funakoshi.he just accepted his friends invite.
> One reason, and probably the ONLY reason it was better for Funakoshi to go than Motobu is the fact that Motobu didnt speak Japanese and Funakoshi did which would have made teaching karate fairly difficult for Motobu.
> 
> Motobu has got to be one of the most misunderstood figures in Okinawan karate.
> He was not formally taught his family style because he was the son of his fathers mistress instead of the son of his fathers wife making him only half brothers with Choyu Motobu. He did however train with his uncle.I have no idea what style it was though. Being born out of wedlock is one of the reasons he did not receive the school education his ½ brother s did.
> Being the offspring of someones mistress most likely gave him some problems growing up in an old fashioned society like the Edo and Meiji eras. I have read that Motobu never actually started a fight but never backed down from one either. I dont know how true that is but he did tell his students to always be polite and courteous.
> 
> So there was no committee, no politics to decide whether Motobu or Funakoshi should go and teach in Tokyo.
> I have to say that Funakoshi did have 2 advantages over most Okinawans. 1. He could speak Japanese and it made it easier for him to be accepted by the Japanese, and also made it easier for him to spread rumors and lies about Motobu which he did by the way. And 2. there was the WWII fast approaching which meant martial instruction was in demand. Funakoshi was in the right place at the right time. Its kind of funny that many of Funakoshis students switched over and trained with Motobu instead. It most likely pissed Funakoshi off to no end.



Robert, you seem differant these days. Much more composed. I'm glad to see you're still willing to share you're knowledge.


----------



## RRouuselot

The Kai said:
			
		

> In a article about Motobu-there is a story of how Motobu defeated a boxer.  Except in the newpaper the next day was a drawing of a very Funakoshish loooking fighter (in the begining stance from pinan 2 of all things) facing the boxer!
> 
> T-




There is a nice story behind that. I have it in a book that was written in Japanese....sorry I am not going to translate it and write it here.....however, I think Grahm Noble wrote something about it. You might do a GOOGLE search.


----------



## RRouuselot

The Kai said:
			
		

> Just a little Question o.k?
> 
> I heard that the left fighting stance did not get popular till the arts came to america.  Due to the general knowledge of boxing among the american public. For familiarity and defenses usa adoptedthe Lefty foot forward
> Todd




Untrue.

Most arts emphasized both right and left side training..in fact since most Asian countries are right hand dominate many MA people would train the left side more. For example Motobu would hit the makiwara more times with his left than right because he felt his left side was weaker than his right. 
He stated that it didnt make sense to train your strong side; you should train the weak side to make it stronger.


----------



## RRouuselot

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> 1) I saw a copy of that Todd. He was posed in the opening high/middle block position of Karazenpo's fourth form. (#4 kata in Shaolin Kempo Karate, #1 Pinan in Okinawan karate and Heian #2 in Shotokan). 2) From what I researched when Motobu saw it, he was livid and went looking for Funakoshi. Allegedly they had an encounter and Funakoshi came out on the short end of it. Like I said before, I don't know how accurate these stories are but that's what's out there so I still remain open minded on them. 3) Also, it's been said the boxer was a heavyweight 'Russian Boxing Champion'. Russian- yes, heavyweight-I believe so, Champion-embellished, from what I understand he was a carnival boxer, still a tough dude I bet since he did take on all challengers.
> 
> 
> 4) The information I have is the relationship of Mitose's Kenpo with Nabura Tanamaha (Motobu lineage) and Robert Trias (Motobu lineage). ..



1)	Actually it is Pinan #4 in both Okinawan karate and Shotokan
2)	Something like that
3)	There are several stories.1 was that he was Irish, another said he was American, and another said Russianeither way he died as a result of the fight.
4)	Trias never studied under Motobu. Although he claims to have in Bruce Haines book. 


I have a photo of that Funakoshi pose so if someone could "learn me" how to put up a photo on here I will post it.


----------



## Karazenpo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)	Actually it is Pinan #4 in both Okinawan karate and Shotokan
> 2)	Something like that&#8230;&#8230;
> 3)	There are several stories&#8230;.1 was that he was Irish, another said he was American, and another said Russian&#8230;either way he died as a result of the fight.
> 4)	Trias never studied under Motobu. Although he claims to have in Bruce Haines book.
> 
> 
> I have a photo of that Funakoshi pose so if someone could "learn me" how to put up a photo on here I will post it.



Hi Robert, yes, the opening sequence in Shaolin Kempo's kata #4 and pinan #4 are the same, except the kata is closed hand and the pinan is open and is considered a 'passive' block. It's been a while since I saw that picture, I thought it was close handed. I stand corrected but it is the high/middle guard position, correct? Mitose also claimed Motobu was his 'master' but some give him the benefit of the doubt that he mean't he was his senior and head of the kenpo system that he studied under Tanamaha. Sort of like Sijo Gascon is the founder and head of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, so anyone studying that art could refer to him as his master. I want to say in the back of my mind that I heard that boxer died but it was only in one reference I read. Do you have any more info. on that? Plus, if I recall, no one came up with his name either.  Robert, I had the feeling Funakoshi, and I'll just say 'embellished' things a little, and here's why. He stated in one of his book or books that he used his karate twice. Once when he was younger. Something about he was a young man and walkiing on a deserted road in the rain one night and someone came running up from behind and he threw out some hand strike on the guy. Later, in the morning, the guy was found in a ditch or ravine or something, seriously hurt. Bear with me, I'm paraphrasing a little  because I don't have a clear recollection of it but that was the jist of it. The other was in his later years, in his early 80's and this one is very clear to me. Some dude grabbed his umbrella and he did a technique from #5 pinan/hiean. Now, my feelings are this. Anyone that has to reach that badly to show that he used his martial art in reality with those 'lame' examples is 'a little' insecure in his real world ability. In other words, he has none, lol. The insecurity could have come from Motobu who was well known for his extra-curricular activities, so to say, lol.  Hey, I'm not saying he didn't pioneer his system and wasn't good at his art but 'paper tiger' seems to come to mind as far as his fighting prowess goes. This isn't a slam, Shotokan's a very powerful martial art and I respect it, I'm just calling it like I see it. One other thing Robert, what's the scoop, as the story goes, of the Japanese government picking the godan rank to award him so he would have rank when he went to Japan. We have been told that back then that made the 5th dan the 'pinnacle' of karate rank. Later, it was raised to 7th and finally to 10th. To the best of your knowledge, is this true or more B.S.?  About Robert Trias, he is of the Motobu lineage, I firmly believe that but I also vaguely recall him stating he had also been a student of Motobu, I must have read it in Bruce Haines' book but I can't recall.  Thanks. Professor Joe


----------



## RRouuselot

Funakoshis 5th dan came from the Butokukai in Kyoto, one of his students named Konishi was a ranked member of that organization through some sword art and did some lobbying to get him a 5th dan. I have never seen Funakoshi was given any rank by the Japanese Gov. . Prior to his rank from the Butokukai Funakoshi had no rank.


----------



## RRouuselot

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> .....About Robert Trias, he is of the Motobu lineage, I firmly believe that but I also vaguely recall him stating he had also been a student of Motobu, I must have read it in Bruce Haines' book but I can't recall.  Thanks. Professor Joe



I read it in Bruce Haines book called Karate History and Traditions (new version)


----------



## Matt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Matt, I got that Kamalani information on #3 kata from brother Peter Teymourez in California. I'm sure you know of him. Peter is very anal on everything he reports but it would be interesting to check out further. Give it a shot. Who knows, curriculums were known to change often back then, especially with Sifu Leoning and I'm sure Professor Godin's Chinese Kenpo didn't use the original Karazenpo katas either but that was my source, other than that I heard it no where else. The funny part of Professor Cerio's pinan series additions was that he told me he got them from Mas Oyama's book! To this day, some websites have him listed as a student of Oyama but he never met the man!, lol. Hey, you have to give him credit, he pulled no punches, he was honest about it!, lol.



I think Mr. Temouraz got his  info from the paper (which is overall pretty good) by J. Madriaga on the history and development of Shaolin Kempo, but there are some inaccuracies in it. For example, the same paper credits Nick Cerio with the creation of 6 and 7 pinion (kata) which are George Pesare's as far as I know, and points to 6 kata as being the root of Circle of the Panther and Swift tigers. Most of these 'inaccuracies' occur within the matrix at the end, and might have been corrected in subsequent versions, but I could only find the old one on my hard drive this morning.   

I don't mean to badmouth the paper, as it is 90% great, and when it came out was really head and shoulders above most of the existing documentation. I even cited it in my timeline. :ultracool

Matt


----------



## Matt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> IF Funakoshi stated this as written in one of the posts: "He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous" then it is obvious he had no real combative experience whatsoever.



Given that he had sections on the throwing and grappling arts included in karate such as arm bars, escapes etc.  in _Karate Jutsu_, do you think he meant that it was redundant; i.e. the grappling was already there?

Matt


----------



## Matt

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Is that A&E special going to have anything on Mizuho's impact on hawaii's karate to the best of your knowledge? To me his link is very interesting. I wish the tracy's people would give their take on him.



Charles Goodin has written some great articles on him. Check out http://www.seinenkai.com/  if you haven't already. I touch on it very briefly at my website: http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabarnes/


			
				monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Matt: Great stuff.



Thanks!

Matt


----------



## RRouuselot

Matt said:
			
		

> Given that he had sections on the throwing and grappling arts included in karate such as arm bars, escapes etc.  in _Karate Jutsu_, do you think he meant that it was redundant; i.e. the grappling was already there?
> 
> Matt






I have seen that too. 
When Funakoshi was introduced to a judoka he couldn't throw the guy......his student Ohtsuka could however.  Maybe Funakoshi was just embarassed........


----------



## Karazenpo

Matt said:
			
		

> I think Mr. Temouraz got his  info from the paper (which is overall pretty good) by J. Madriaga on the history and development of Shaolin Kempo, but there are some inaccuracies in it. For example, the same paper credits Nick Cerio with the creation of 6 and 7 pinion (kata) which are George Pesare's as far as I know, and points to 6 kata as being the root of Circle of the Panther and Swift tigers. Most of these 'inaccuracies' occur within the matrix at the end, and might have been corrected in subsequent versions, but I could only find the old one on my hard drive this morning.
> 
> I don't mean to badmouth the paper, as it is 90% great, and when it came out was really head and shoulders above most of the existing documentation. I even cited it in my timeline. :ultracool
> 
> Matt



Hi Matt, it's funny you should say that about #6 kata being the root of Circle of the Panther. When I was studying under Professor Cerio we went over all that. I am absolutely positive that he told me, so you can quote me on this, that Circle of the Panther was derived from #6 kata. Upon myself checking out this form one of the only similiarities that was really noticeable was the jumping front kick (the 'stepping stool' kick), so I don't know what to tell you but I'm sure he said this to me. Any ideas? Yes Matt, I am also positive that #6 & 7 pinans (we would call katas) were created by Gm. Pesare for he told me himself although his version is a 'little' different than the Shaolin Kempo one, but not really that much. Gm. Pesare told me that he created #7 from a 'drill' he used to teach in class. "Joe"


----------



## Matt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Matt, it's funny you should say that about #6 kata being the root of Circle of the Panther. When I was studying under Professor Cerio we went over all that. I am absolutely positive that he told me, so you can quote me on this, that Circle of the Panther was derived from #6 kata. Upon myself checking out this form one of the only similiarities that was really noticeable was the jumping front kick (the 'stepping stool' kick), so I don't know what to tell you but I'm sure he said this to me. Any ideas?


Ummm....
Maybe a couple. *These are purely speculation.* 
1.) He forgot over the years and meant 7?
2.) 7 was created first and  6 was inserted after? 
3.) the order was changed after he left?
4.) 6 wasn't designated rank material until after he left? 

I don't  know!

I would even posit that 6 kata was created after he left, but since it's in the villari curriculm, I don't see how it could have skipped a generation. I can't comment that accurately yet, but I am hoping to get a closer look at 7 pinan and drawing a more solid conclusion. The only thing that I can say, is when I saw 7 pinan being performed, I immediately thought, "hey, that reminds me of  swift tigers." It's not that far of a leap based on comparison to apply the transitive property to get Swift tigers =>circle of the panther=> 7 pinan. Having done Swift tigers and 6 kata for a while now, I don't find them very similar. 





> Yes Matt, I am also positive that #6 & 7 pinans (we would call katas) were created by Gm. Pesare for he told me himself although his version is a 'little' different than the Shaolin Kempo one, but not really that much. Gm. Pesare told me that he created #7 from a 'drill' he used to teach in class. "Joe"



Yes, that's the story I got as well, and the fact that he does them seems to argue in favor. One doesn't see kata swimming 'upstream' that often. Although the Karazenpo site talks (or at least used to mention)about Rohai / Statue of the Crane. Any thoughts on that? In your talks with Sijo Gascon, has he identified specific curriculum items, e.g. "we added this, Pesare added that, etc."? I haven't yet had the chance to ask him these questions. 

Matt


----------



## Karazenpo

Matt said:
			
		

> Ummm....
> Maybe a couple. *These are purely speculation.*
> 1.) He forgot over the years and meant 7?
> 2.) 7 was created first and  6 was inserted after?
> 3.) the order was changed after he left?
> 4.) 6 wasn't designated rank material until after he left?
> 
> I don't  know!
> 
> I would even posit that 6 kata was created after he left, but since it's in the villari curriculm, I don't see how it could have skipped a generation. I can't comment that accurately yet, but I am hoping to get a closer look at 7 pinan and drawing a more solid conclusion. The only thing that I can say, is when I saw 7 pinan being performed, I immediately thought, "hey, that reminds me of  swift tigers." It's not that far of a leap based on comparison to apply the transitive property to get Swift tigers =>circle of the panther=> 7 pinan. Having done Swift tigers and 6 kata for a while now, I don't find them very similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's the story I got as well, and the fact that he does them seems to argue in favor. One doesn't see kata swimming 'upstream' that often. Although the Karazenpo site talks (or at least used to mention)about Rohai / Statue of the Crane. Any thoughts on that? In your talks with Sijo Gascon, has he identified specific curriculum items, e.g. "we added this, Pesare added that, etc."? I haven't yet had the chance to ask him these questions.
> 
> Matt



Hey Matt,  Gm. Pesare told me #7 was added after #6. The order never changed and #6 was rank material after shodan. No, I haven't ran that past Sijo because I thought it to be correct from Mr. Cerio and Mr. Pesare. Back in 2001, I was with Kathy, Bob Nohelty and Jimmy Bryant (and other black belts) going over the original forms at Gm. Pesare's Branch Ave. school when Bob approached Gm. Pesare and asked him about Statue of the Crane. He stated it was a 'generic' form he added, generic in the sense that versions of it could be found in 80 per cent of all the major karate styles, not an original Karazenpo form, although he refers to it as No-Hi, spelled exactly like that. I researched No-Hi and found it to be an Okinawan derived form, rather rare, called Crane on a Rock but it didn't look nothing like Statue of the Crane. When I checked Rohai, although radically altered, I still found similiarities, commonalities, such as movements done in a series of three. From everything I gathered so far first hand, Gm. Pesare learned the Karazenpo forms 1-5 from Sijo Gascon and has never altered them to this day.

Matt stated: "Having done Swift tigers and 6 kata for a while now, I don't find them very similar."

I say: Totally agree! 


Take care, 'Joe'


----------



## Karazenpo

Here's some interesting reading:


 On Choki Motobu  Part 1
By By Patrick McCarthy

Editors Note: This article was originally titled More On Motobu and is included in the book Motobu Choki Karate  My Art compiled and translated by Patrick and Yuriko McCarthy. The article has been edited to stand alone and appears in two parts on FightingArts.com.

Introducing Karate to the West

In addition to Yubu Kentsu and Miyagi Chojun, two other pre-war teachers named Mutsu Mizuho and Higaonna Kamessuke also taught karate in Hawaii. What only a few people probably know is that Motobu Choki also visited and taught karate in Hawaii.

Two announcements of Motobus arrival in Hawaii appeared in local Hawaiian newspapers at that time. The March 13th 1932 issue of a local Japanese newspaper named, The Nippon Jiji, reads, Karate-jutsu authority, Motobu Choki will be arriving in Hawaii on board the Shunyo Maru. Motobu Choki who is teaching karate-jutsu to several hundred students in Tokyo is a well-known authority and presently has his own dojo in Hara Town of Koishikawa Ward of Tokyo. At this time, we understand that he is en route to Hawaii on board the Shunyo Maru, scheduled to arrive on the 26th. Invited by Tamanaha Yoshimatsu of Hawaii, Motobu Choki is the third son of the wealthy Motobu family from the town of Suri in Okinawa Prefecture. Hes enthusiastically studied karate-jutsu since his childhood and is recognized as an authority on Japan.

The other announcement of his arrival in Hawaii appears in the March 13th 1932 issue of the The Hawaii Hochi. It reads, Karate authority Motobu Choki will be arriving on the 26th. Motobu Choki, who is teaching several hundred students in Tokyo, is well known as an authority on karate/martial arts. Presently he has a dojo in Hara Town of Koishikawa Third Ward in Tokyo but we recently heard that hell be arriving in Hawaii on board the Shunyo Maru, on the 26th. He is the third son of the wealthy Motobu family from the town of Shuri in Okinawa. Hes been devoted to studying karate-jutsu since childhood and hes a very famous martial artist. In fact, theres almost no one whos not familiar with his nickname, Saru.

On pages 64-65 of Bruce Hains Masters thesis entitled Karate & Its Development in Hawaii to 1959, I found the following testimony from an interview with Thomas Miyashiro, the only person to ever train directly under Motobu Choki during his brief stay in Hawaii in 1932: In the late twenties and early thirties in Hawaii it was common for boxing promoters, etc., to match judo men against boxers. Seeing that these matches proved interesting and profitable, a group of Okinawan men headed by Mr. Chosho Tamanaha decided to pit a karate man against a boxer. This group selected Choki Motobu, the great Okinawan master who had defeated a Russian heavyweight boxer in a bare-handed bout in 1922


----------



## Karazenpo

Hey, look at this one, essentially what Robert stated. It makes you wonder about this legitimate rank thing.

Of course, the Butoku-kai continued to sanction head teachers directly. This was not without controversy, however, since Konishi sat on the board that awarded Funakoshi his renshi and Konishi had been Funakoshi's student. Of course, Konishi had inside ties to the Butoku-kai by virtue of birth, something the Okinawan Funakoshi could not have.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

see prof joe.......there's dirty little secrets everywhere we turn

shawn


----------



## RRouuselot

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> see prof joe.......there's dirty little secrets everywhere we turn
> 
> shawn



Some folks have more than their fair share too.....


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> see prof joe.......there's dirty little secrets everywhere we turn
> 
> shawn



Agreed! Don't get me wrong, Shawn, that's my point. I have heard so much B.S. over the years from some of these so-called 'traditionalists', specifically 'Shotokan', but others too, about their system being 'pure' and  their negative comments over our Hawaiian-derived kenpo/kempo systems and their legitimate rank B.S. with their 'masters' and now we can all see it's just all that, B.S. In the words of San Jose Kenpo's Dave Simmons, they can all KMA!, lol. Sorry Dave, I had to borrow that one from you!, I didn't think you'd mind though! lol.


----------



## Karazenpo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Some folks have more than their fair share too.....



You know Robert, I used to think that, it was all based on a scale from one to ten, but now I feel it's six of one, half dozen of another. They're all the same. You just have to know where to look for the skeletons, that's all. Just my thoughts............


----------



## RRouuselot

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Agreed! Don't get me wrong, Shawn, that's my point. I have heard so much B.S. over the years from some of these so-called 'traditionalists', specifically 'Shotokan', but others too, about their system being 'pure' and  their negative comments over our Hawaiian-derived kenpo/kempo systems and their legitimate rank B.S. with their 'masters' and now we can all see it's just all that, B.S. In the words of San Jose Kenpo's Dave Simmons, they can all KMA!, lol. Sorry Dave, I had to borrow that one from you!, I didn't think you'd mind though! lol.




This is exactly why I never post my rank or even or tell folks what it is.....because it doesn't matter. Motobu never had rank as far as I know....he seem to open a can of whoops *** just fine.....*train like there is no tomorrow because there might not be if you don't. *........
I do get a little P.O.ed when folks claim to having super high ranks with limited or no time studying.....it's not the rank that bothers me so much .....it's the out right lie.


----------



## RRouuselot

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> You know Robert, I used to think that, it was all based on a scale from one to ten, but now I feel it's six of one, half dozen of another. They're all the same. You just have to know where to look for the skeletons, that's all. Just my thoughts............



I disagree about skeletons.....at least martial arts wise anyway. (personal lives aside)
I have met some folks (known them most of my life actually) and they are what they say......they can do what they say.


----------



## The Kai

There are plenty of good people out there teaching the martial arts.

Did Funakoshi promote himself?  Of course, it is the same today as ever there are plenty of martial artists that you see in the magazines that "are'nt all that".  Did Funakoshi's promotion help out the art of Karate in general?  Sure did much to populariize the art
I would'nt really say this was a skeleton in a closet though
Todd


----------



## RRouuselot

The Kai said:
			
		

> There are plenty of good people out there teaching the martial arts.
> 
> Did Funakoshi promote himself?  Of course, it is the same today as ever there are plenty of martial artists that you see in the magazines that "are'nt all that".  Did Funakoshi's promotion help out the art of Karate in general?  Sure did much to populariize the art
> I would'nt really say this was a skeleton in a closet though
> Todd




I think you may have misunderstood the point. The Japanese asked him what rank he had and were amazed that he had none. Japanese seem to equivocate rank with skill. 
Go figure.  
Funakoshis rank had nothing to do with the popularization of the art since he didnt get any rank until karate had already become popular. 
I think the skeletons were in reference to all the lies and half truths Funakoshi told not really about his rank. 
Speaking of rank.I saw an 8mm movie of Funakoshi doing kata it was pretty bad.


----------



## Karazenpo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I think you may have misunderstood the point. The Japanese asked him what rank he had and were amazed that he had none. Japanese seem to equivocate rank with skill.
> Go figure.
> Funakoshi&#8217;s rank had nothing to do with the popularization of the art since he didn&#8217;t get any rank until karate had already become popular.
> I think the &#8220;skeletons&#8221; were in reference to all the lies and half truths Funakoshi told not really about his rank.
> Speaking of rank&#8230;&#8230;.I saw an 8mm movie of Funakoshi doing kata &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;it was pretty bad.



Yes, Robert I know what you're saying, I too have met martial artists who are what they say they are but my comment is more in line with systems and lineages than individual persons, although I do mean some indivivduals too. I just feel we all should be careful about throwing stones and be reminded of the glass house syndrome because even if we have done things proper, there is always someone in our lineage who hasn't and that can come back to bite us in the butt when we criticize others. 

Robert wrote: Speaking of rank&#8230;&#8230;.I saw an 8mm movie of Funakoshi doing kata &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;it was pretty bad.[/QUOTE]

I say: Agreed again! Gm. S. George Pesare told us once at a seminar that if these old masters ever so our group today, they would hail us as grandmasters. This was not stated to be an ego thing, just the way things have evolved. Like Robert stated and I'm paraphrasing, if you look at some of those old masters..........well, they just don't look that good as compared to today's standards. True?


----------



## James Kovacich

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Some folks have more than their fair share too.....


Who you talking about?


----------



## The Kai

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I say: Agreed again! Gm. S. George Pesare told us once at a seminar that if these old masters ever so our group today, they would hail us as grandmasters. This was not stated to be an ego thing, just the way things have evolved. Like Robert stated and I'm paraphrasing, if you look at some of those old masters..........well, they just don't look that good as compared to today's standards. True?


I have to agree, all talk about traditions aside, body mechanics, understanding of kinesology and knowledge/desire to learn is way more advanced today
Todd


----------



## RRouuselot

The Kai said:
			
		

> I have to agree, all talk about traditions aside, body mechanics, understanding of kinesology and knowledge/desire to learn is way more advanced today
> Todd




I disagree on a couple of points. 
1) People that studied martial arts before were quite knowledgeable about body mechanics. My teacher has relayed several accounts of how one of his teachers was extremely knowledgeable about body mechanics and the execution of leverage. For example my own teacher who has never studied any sort of medicine or gone to an anatomy class (as far as I know anyway) could show you where many weak points are and where to strike them to get full benefit and tell you which way the person would fall if you do A or if you do B or C. This comes from over 60 years of studying and pounding on people so I have know doubt he has picked up some pretty good knowledge of how to use the body for offense as well as defense. 
2) I think peoples desire to learn today is far less than it was. I base this opinion on hearing what my teacher and several others had to endure just to train. I think 99% of the people that say I wanna learn ku-ra-dee wouldnt last. Even with in the last 20 years the desire and nintai (perseverance) has gone out of most young people. When I first started training we did full contact sparring almost nightly.after a while I started think "this really sucks".....but kept going because that was what was required.....now if you do bogu once some/many folks will not come back.they just won't gut it out. Everybody seems to want to join a touchy feely dojo with a bunch of "granola heads" where they pass Ki back and forth  instead of actually working up a sweat and doing something where you actually make a bit of contact. Teachers dont seem to want to do any training where they will lose students either. I dont care since I don't charge money. 
I teach a military hand to hand combat class for the Army (ours). One soldier commented that after they were struck by the defender they saw starsI told them that was a good thing...if it hurts it must be working. :ultracool 

I would say that strength and sport training have come light years ahead of what they were back in the day. 

In my original statement I was proposing that some of the icons and masters that got so much respect were over rated or simply over hyped as the case may be. Either way some of them really stunk.


----------



## The Kai

When I was referring to body mechanics I was referring to how the individual moved.  Knowledge of the body's weakness can come from many sources (application, massage, experience).

Not to waver i should have said the potential for learning is greater today now more than ever.  Is the oppurtunity grabbed???  Well, there will always be the No touch KO, No sweat workout faction, if they're willing to pay for a belt they can hook their thumbs thru then someone will sell it to them
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

Robert, boy, do I agree with your #2 point. A while ago, years ago, I started this class I referred to as an Exercise/Endurance class. I started with a full house (Tuesdays & Thursdays (8-9pm), within weeks it was just me and my staff and a few diehards, if that! Around that time, I also had a kick boxing class. Shortly, I ended up with a few diehards along with my staff, lol. A friend of mine who has a small school tried it recently, he said he ended up 'shadowboxing' by himself. I had this guy that came in from another school, an orange belt, said he was almost purple, whatever, but he kept telling me how he wanted the contact. I told me him I felt he wasn't ready yet, but it will come. He kept hounding me so I put him against one of my students who was roughly his experience who liked hard sparring. I'll even name him, he'll laugh if he ever reads this, Joe Fernandes. Joe just made purple and this guy was working toward purple but told me he had hardcore sparring experience. I let them wear head gear, mouth piece and cup. Square them off, within 30 seconds Joe does a jump front ball kick, catches him right on the chin-knockout. As I predicted to my staff, this guy comes back three days later and tells me he has to quit. Reason: his finance found out what happened to him and made him quit!, Ya, right! However, I have to say, my wife has a pretty hardcore Inter-school Sparring League every year and she has them go pretty hot and heavy and believe it or not, she has an excellent turn out. After the season, there is an awards night with a banquet, DJ  and trophies. I do have some black belts and advanced students that will take anything we throw at them, very hardcore, so there's still some hope, lol, and I never put them through anything I didn't go through, ( just ask Hanshi Craig Seavey) so I feel comfortable in what I expect from them.


----------



## The Kai

What do you expect in a world with 7 year old black belts and Postage stamp Black belts?:idunno:   Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> What do you expect in a world with 7 year old black belts and Postage stamp Black belts?:idunno:   Todd



I hear ya, Todd, I hear ya..........


----------



## The Kai

Is it time to cry in our Beers?

Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> Is it time to cry in our Beers?
> 
> Todd



Todd, it's Friday night. Too bad you don't live nearby 'cause I would suggest we get a designated driver go to the 99 in Milford and tie one on!!!!!! They have those 22 ounce mugs, they can handle a lot of tears, lol. Joe


----------



## Karazenpo

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hey Matt,  Gm. Pesare told me #7 was added after #6. The order never changed and #6 was rank material after shodan. No, I haven't ran that past Sijo because I thought it to be correct from Mr. Cerio and Mr. Pesare. Back in 2001, I was with Kathy, Bob Nohelty and Jimmy Bryant (and other black belts) going over the original forms at Gm. Pesare's Branch Ave. school when Bob approached Gm. Pesare and asked him about Statue of the Crane. He stated it was a 'generic' form he added, generic in the sense that versions of it could be found in 80 per cent of all the major karate styles, not an original Karazenpo form, although he refers to it as No-Hi, spelled exactly like that. I researched No-Hi and found it to be an Okinawan derived form, rather rare, called Crane on a Rock but it didn't look nothing like Statue of the Crane. When I checked Rohai, although radically altered, I still found similiarities, commonalities, such as movements done in a series of three. From everything I gathered so far first hand, Gm. Pesare learned the Karazenpo forms 1-5 from Sijo Gascon and has never altered them to this day.
> 
> Matt stated: "Having done Swift tigers and 6 kata for a while now, I don't find them very similar."
> 
> I say: Totally agree!
> 
> 
> Take care, 'Joe'




Matt, I had some time on my hands so I decided to see if I could find the breakdown of No Hi. Haven't found it yet, I'm still searching but in the mean time this is what I came up with. The No Hi I found that resembled our 'Crane' is from an Okinawan Shorin ryu system. Here's a link:http://www.mattharrell.net/personal/kata.html
Funny part is, when I originally researched this I found No Hi means 'Crane on a Rock' and Rohai-Symbol of the White Heron or Vision of a Crane which I re-confirmed BUT I also found sites listing Gankaku, Chinto and Rohai, all listed in one site or another as 'Crane on a Rock'! I also found the Korean form spelled Nohi, meaning single point, focus.  It stated it is a breaking form and should be performed with tiles or breaking material. It's nothing like our Crane but I can see where all this confusion comes in. Okay, back to the search!

Just found this:http://www.shoreikempo.com/classreq.php Okinawan Shorei ryu kempo requirement for shodan.
I also found the 'Ro' in Rohai does stand for 'Heron' or Heron mark.


----------



## Gentle Fist

Prof Joe, maybe you can clear this up...

Knowing a little bit about NCK I am interested in this topic, but I am confused on some of the NCK forms and where they came from...

*Pinan 1 and 2*: I understand these.

*Pinan 3:* from Pinan Sandan? - I thought it was created by Prof Cerio, using his combinations 5,6,7 and 8?

*Pinan 4:* from Pinan Yondan? - I have never seen NCK's Pinan 4, so I have no idea

*Pinan 5:* from Pinan Godan? - never have seen this one either.

*Cat 1:* looks like Pinan Sandan to me.

*Cat 2:* looks like Pinan Yondan.

*Cat 3:* I know this was Prof Cerio's creation.

*Cat 4:* does this exsist??

*Cat 5:* Hansuki??

*Circle of the Tiger:* Pretty sure this is from Kata 1.

*Statue of the Crane:* Like most have said this comes from Rohai or something like it, too many versions out there.

*Circle of the Leopard:* Kata 2.

*Circle of the Panther:* I also heard this was from Kata 6.

What did Prof Cerio do with Kata 3,Kata 4, and Kata 5?  Any answers would be most helpfull!!


----------



## Matt

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> Prof Joe, maybe you can clear this up...
> 
> Knowing a little bit about NCK I am interested in this topic, but I am confused on some of the NCK forms and where they came from...
> 
> *Pinan 1 and 2*: I understand these.
> 
> *Pinan 3:* from Pinan Sandan? - I thought it was created by Prof Cerio, using his combinations 5,6,7 and 8?



Okay, fair call. To clarify, Pinan 3 as the Shaolin Kempo guys have it is what Nick Cerio had as his 3 pinan while he was training villari, before Nick Cerio's Kenpo had taken shape. Pinan 3 in the Cerio system now appears to be yet another 'kung line' variation on taikyoku shodan/nidan/sandan. I don't see the comb. 5-8 though. 


> *Pinan 4:* from Pinan Yondan? - I have never seen NCK's Pinan 4, so I have no idea
> 
> *Pinan 5:* from Pinan Godan? - never have seen this one either.



As far as I know, Nick Cerio's Kenpo only has forms named Pinan (1-3). You are correct. It would be Villari folks and offshoots that follow the pinan 1-5 convention. 


> *Cat 1:* looks like Pinan Sandan to me.
> 
> *Cat 2:* looks like Pinan Yondan.



Exactly right. 


> *Cat 3:* I know this was Prof Cerio's creation.


Okay, I'll buy that. 


> *Cat 4:* does this exsist??


Probably not. 


> *Cat 5:* Hansuki??


ohh no - he called Honsuki honsuki. He just didn't hand it out much, and lamented how most of us did it. 



> *Circle of the Tiger:* Pretty sure this is from Kata 1.


Yes, but I think in the NCIMAA magazine, they hint that there's some more (three ) inthere. 


> *Statue of the Crane:* Like most have said this comes from Rohai or something like it, too many versions out there.


Yeah, pretty much. 


> *Circle of the Leopard:* Kata 2.


Right on!


> *Circle of the Panther:* I also heard this was from Kata 6.


Joe has pretty much a direct quote of Professor Cerio saying that. I still feel that it has more to do with Pesare's Kata 7. My 6 kata looks almost exactly like pesare's 6 kata, and it really doesn't seem to be parsimonious to have it skip a generation. 



> What did Prof Cerio do with Kata 3,Kata 4, and Kata 5?  Any answers would be most helpfull!!



Tossed in blender, served warm. Yes, snippets can be seen here and there. 


Good luck keeping track,

MAtt


----------



## Karazenpo

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> Prof Joe, maybe you can clear this up...
> 
> Knowing a little bit about NCK I am interested in this topic, but I am confused on some of the NCK forms and where they came from...
> 
> *Pinan 1 and 2*: I understand these.
> 
> *Pinan 3:* from Pinan Sandan? - I thought it was created by Prof Cerio, using his combinations 5,6,7 and 8?
> 
> *Pinan 4:* from Pinan Yondan? - I have never seen NCK's Pinan 4, so I have no idea
> 
> *Pinan 5:* from Pinan Godan? - never have seen this one either.
> 
> *Cat 1:* looks like Pinan Sandan to me.
> 
> *Cat 2:* looks like Pinan Yondan.
> 
> *Cat 3:* I know this was Prof Cerio's creation.
> 
> *Cat 4:* does this exsist??
> 
> *Cat 5:* Hansuki??
> 
> *Circle of the Tiger:* Pretty sure this is from Kata 1.
> 
> *Statue of the Crane:* Like most have said this comes from Rohai or something like it, too many versions out there.
> 
> *Circle of the Leopard:* Kata 2.
> 
> *Circle of the Panther:* I also heard this was from Kata 6.
> 
> Hello Fistlaw, Matt pretty much summed it up. Just to add, NCK Cat Form #4 is also his own creation and Cat Form #5, although radically altered was inspired by Hansuki. When I asked the Professor why he didn't use this form or that form from the original Karazenpo, he just said "it didn't fit into his system." Yes Matt, your #6 kata is very close to what Gm. Pesare currently teaches and I agree with you on the issue with Circle of the Panther and #6 but that is what he told me when I asked him. At the time when I asked him (1990) I didn't even know #7 kata existed!  As far as Hansuki (Chun's spelling) goes, the Professor didn't have any idea what it translated to, I was working on that with him. Don't forget, back then we didn't have the internet like we do know and research was much more difficult.
> 
> What did Prof Cerio do with Kata 3,Kata 4, and Kata 5?  Any answers would be most helpfull!!



Hello Fistlaw, Matt pretty much summed it up. Just to add, NCK Cat Form #4 is also his own creation and Cat Form #5, although radically altered was inspired by Hansuki. When I asked the Professor why he didn't use this form or that form from the original Karazenpo, he just said "it didn't fit into his system." Yes Matt, your #6 kata is very close to what Gm. Pesare currently teaches and I agree with you on the issue with Circle of the Panter and #6 but that is what he told me when I asked him. At the time when I asked him (1990) I didn't even know #7 kata existed!  As far as Hansuki (Chun's spelling) goes, the Professor didn't have any idea what it translated to, I was working on that with him. Don't forget, back then we didn't have the internet like we do now and research was much more difficult. NCK'a Pinan 1 and Pinan 3 is Shaolin Kempo's #1 and #2. Cerio's #2 Pinan was inspired by (only the first half of it) Okinawan Pinan #2 which is Shotokan's Heian 1. After about the first half it becomes radically altered. He uses one of his self defense techniques (right and left side) to close it out. Cat#1 is actually NCK's version of SKK #3 pinan and Cat #2 is SKK's #4 pinan. Respectfully, Professor Joe


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## Karazenpo

Quote:

Circle of the Tiger: Pretty sure this is from Kata 1.
Yes, but I think in the NCIMAA magazine, they hint that there's some more (three ) inthere.


I would like to comment on the above quote also:

Yes, Circle of the Tiger was based on #1 Kata of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu system. If you carefully disect this form you will find all of the elements of #1 Kata in Circle of the Tiger and of course additions. I spoke with Professor Cerio indepth on this form. The basic framework of the form is from the Karazenpo concepts of the first kata, then built around that are additions from his training in various arts under various instructors, in other words, various influences. However, there is absolutely no mistaking it for anything else but a Kenpo form. Notice the form's circulartory nucleus resulting in a nice flow of continuous motion, a Chinese Ch'uan fa (Kempo) influenced concept. This form, if I may quote him, was 'his baby'. He considered it the nucleus of Nick Cerio's Kenpo-self defense in a tight circle. Circle of the Tiger was to Nick Cerio as Naihanchi shodan was to Choki Motobu and James Mitose. If there was one form that summed up Professor Nick Cerio, it is Circle of the Tiger! This, I'm paraphrasing, from his own admissions.


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## Gentle Fist

Thanks guys for all the help!

So Pinan 4 and 5 don't exsist in NCK today?

Cat 5 is not Hansuki, but resembles it?

I know Hansuki is still alive and well in NCK, but is not given out to at least Nidan or Sandan rank.

Speaking of Hansuki, what is with all the crazy versions out there. I am familiar with the version with the 7 double hand strike combo, I have seen about 4 others that leave this combo out and appear to be shorter all together. Any thoughts?

After looking around the net I found one website with a video of Honsuki,which is way different then the one taught in NCK. Not to be judgemental, but the stances are not as rooted as I would think they were originally meant to be. http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/Ken.html Tell me what you guys think.


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## Matt

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> Thanks guys for all the help!



Hey, it's our area:supcool:



> So Pinan 4 and 5 don't exsist in NCK today?



Not that I know of.



> Cat 5 is not Hansuki, but resembles it?



I have to defer to Joe, here, as I wasn't even aware of it. 



> I know Hansuki is still alive and well in NCK, but is not given out to at least Nidan or Sandan rank.
> 
> Speaking of Hansuki, what is with all the crazy versions out there. I am familiar with the version with the 7 double hand strike combo, I have seen about 4 others that leave this combo out and appear to be shorter all together. Any thoughts?



Well, there are a bunch of versions out there, and as far as I can tell, none of the ones here on the East Coast match up really well with Professor Bill Chun Jr.'s version. I was always warned that If I was in a tournament and Professor Cerio was judging *never to do honsuki* as he considered the version most seen in these parts 'wrong', and would score it harshly. I never had cause(or a heck of a lot of desire) to test this out. 



> After looking around the net I found one website with a video of Honsuki,which is way different then the one taught in NCK. Not to be judgemental, but the stances are not as rooted as I would think they were originally meant to be. http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/Ken.html Tell me what you guys think.



I've seen that one before. Here's what I think:
Content: the choreography (moves, strikes and stances) appear very similar to the version of the form I have. 
Execution: I perform it in a very different manner. If I get a chance, I'll post video. Perhaps you could tape your version and we could compare/contrast. 
If you want a pretty thorough overview of honsuki, contact kenpojoe@aol.com, as he has just finished a video on it. 

Matt


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## Karazenpo

Hey guys!, Shaolin Kempo's #4 pinan is in Nick Cerio's Kenpo. It has been altered and is called Cat#2. #5 pinan is not used, when I asked the Professor why, he simply stated it didn't fit into his system. Cat#5 is NCK's perspective of Hansuki, because he seriously altered it, the Professor called it Cat#5 instead of its original name. Professor and I also spoke quite a bit about Hansuki and why the Villari version was different. He told me Villari left out elbows and sweeps that were in the original. When I was with KenpoJoe & Matt a couple years ago at Bill Chun's seminar he demonstrated some of the beginning, the middle and the end. It was different but there were parts that you could most definitely relate to in the Villari version. I did see the elbows Cerio talked about that were missing. As far as sweeps go, I believe they are in the footwork of the Villari version. I have the original Villari version and we went over it with Fred sometime around '78-79 in Dedham, ma. The form was originally taught to me by Craig Seavey and when I went to Fred at a black belt workout, it was the same. I'll check out that Hansuki website and let you guys know what I think, thanks, Joe

I just tried Ken's website, my computer won't play the video.


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## Karazenpo

Quote:
I know Hansuki is still alive and well in NCK, but is not given out to at least Nidan or Sandan rank.

Speaking of Hansuki, what is with all the crazy versions out there. I am familiar with the version with the 7 double hand strike combo, I have seen about 4 others that leave this combo out and appear to be shorter all together. Any thoughts?  


I have the original Villari version and the two opening sequences going toward 9 o'clock and then 3 'clock have seven hand strikes in combination, as a matter of fact Master John Fritz (highest ranking Villari black belt at 9th dan) used to also refer to the form as '7 Death Strikes of the Tiger' back in the 70's. I ran this past Professor Cerio and he said he didn't know what it translated to but that wasn't it. The seven double hand strike combo you mentioned was taught to me as six. I showed it to Professor Cerio and he said that was a Villari addition, it wasn't in the one he learned. I was told a few years ago there were four major versions of Hansuki (I'd have to check but I think Master Chun told me): 1) Chow/Chun original 2) Ralph Castro Shaolin Kenpo version 3) Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo version 4) Nick Cerio's Kenpo version.


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## Thunderbolt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Quote:
> I was told a few years ago there were four major versions of Hansuki (I'd have to check but I think Master Chun told me): 1) Chow/Chun original 2) Ralph Castro Shaolin Kenpo version 3) Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo version 4) Nick Cerio's Kenpo version.


I am an opened mind person and love to know what other arts are about. I read a few posts about "hansuki" here. I can see where 1 3 4 number comes from EXCEPT number 2 (ralph castrol)

ralph castrol has his own version of hansuki too.? anybody saw it??

btw, what is hansuki.?? thank you.


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## Matt

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> I am an opened mind person and love to know what other arts are about. I read a few posts about "hansuki" here. I can see where 1 3 4 number comes from EXCEPT number 2 (ralph castrol)
> 
> ralph castrol has his own version of hansuki too.? anybody saw it??
> 
> btw, what is hansuki.?? thank you.



Ralph Castro interacted with Parker and Chow. I'm guessing if hansuki is in his system, its inclusion occurred during the time Chow was in California (circa late 1967-71), if I recall correctly. Professor Cerio would have visited Chow in Hawaii just prior to him coming to the mainland. 

I'll look up some dates to confirm.

Matt


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## Matt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hey guys!, Shaolin Kempo's #4 pinan is in Nick Cerio's Kenpo. It has been altered and is called Cat#2. #5 pinan is not used, when I asked the Professor why, he simply stated it didn't fit into his system. Cat#5 is NCK's perspective of Hansuki, because he seriously altered it, the Professor called it Cat#5 instead of its original name.



Oops! Yes we came to that conclusion in post #74 or so, but wandered away from it. I think we had a semantic breakdown. 

We made the Cat 2 connection, but made it with a pinan yondan. When he said there is no Pinan 4 or 5, I took it to mean that there was no form _named_ pinan 4 or pinan 5 in the system. Sorry.

That's very interesting that he left out #5 pinan because it didn't fit in his system. I think it's great that he had the willpower to discard something that wasn't useful to his vision of kenpo. There's too many 'collectors' in this world. It's very important to not only learn useful things but to discard useless ones as well. This doesn't mean that #5 pinan is useless in general, but just to kenpo as Professor Cerio saw it. 

Thaks for bringing us back to the point. 

Matt


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## Karazenpo

Matt said:
			
		

> Ralph Castro interacted with Parker and Chow. I'm guessing if hansuki is in his system, its inclusion occurred during the time Chow was in California (circa late 1967-71), if I recall correctly. Professor Cerio would have visited Chow in Hawaii just prior to him coming to the mainland.
> 
> I'll look up some dates to confirm.
> 
> Matt



Yes Matt, check that out because I am positive I was told that Ralph Castro has a version of Hansuki, ask Master Chun. We should give Professor Sedeno a call, I would think he may be able to confirm this one way or the other. In the meantime, I'll check my files.


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## Matt

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> Speaking of Hansuki, what is with all the crazy versions out there. I am familiar with the version with the 7 double hand strike combo, I have seen about 4 others that leave this combo out and appear to be shorter all together. Any thoughts?
> 
> After looking around the net I found one website with a video of Honsuki,which is way different then the one taught in NCK. Not to be judgemental, but the stances are not as rooted as I would think they were originally meant to be. http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/Ken.html Tell me what you guys think.



I've posted a movie of me doing Hansuki a acouple years ago. It's pretty small, but I think you can see well enough to spot the giant glaring error(s). I'll leave it up for a few days, but I don't want to use up my bandwidth. It's about 1.4MB, quicktime.

http://www.capecodmartialarts.com/honsukimatt.mov

Matt


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## Matt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Yes Matt, check that out because I am positive I was told that Ralph Castro has a version of Hansuki, ask Master Chun. We should give Professor Sedeno a call, I would think he may be able to confirm this one way or the other. In the meantime, I'll check my files.



That would be a great idea - it wouldn't surprise me if he has the form as he is pretty highly ranked in that art. 

Matt


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## Karazenpo

No problem, Matt, with all this info we're exchanging its very easy to get off track, I've done it myself. I'll say this though, I've learned a lot after hooking up with all you guys and I hope I've been of help to all of you also. I think #5 pinan is of value too. Here's something funny. NCK does have techniques from #5 pinan in a form and a numerical combination. NCK's #10 combination A & B are the last two techniques in #5 (which is also the same as in the ending of Villari's Honsuki), the Chinese name for it is "The monkey snatching the peach from the tiger's tooth", gotta love those Chinese with their analogies, lol. Anyway, that's NCK's #10a and #10b. Now in Cat Form #3 #10a and #10b is also in the form. I believe that technique was also a favorite of Funakoshi. He stated in his book when he was in his 80's he was assaulted while holding his umbrella and used a variation of this combo on his assailant. Okay, I know you guys are laughing on that one, I wish I could have seen it to....and no, I don't carry an umbrella, lol, I wear a baseball cap when it rains, lol. So, getting back to the point, I really don't know why #5 doesn't fit into NCK, I wish I pursued it with him further but he said the same about katas 3,4 and 5 also. Matt, I'm at my home computer now and it won't play your video, I'll have to wait until I'm at the station. Thanks. Take care & be safe, Joe


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## Karazenpo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karazenpo
Quote:
I was told a few years ago there were four major versions of Hansuki (I'd have to check but I think Master Chun told me): 1) Chow/Chun original 2) Ralph Castro Shaolin Kenpo version 3) Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo version 4) Nick Cerio's Kenpo version. 

Sorry guys, I checked my files on Master Chun and I couldn't find anything on the four versions of Hansuki but I am absolutely positive I was told that by a good source and that GGM. Castro also has a version. I'm trying to think if it was 'Brother' Peter Teymourez but I honestly can't recall. However, I found some other interesting stuff. Master Chun had told me he has no problem with anyone altering the form. He said, I'm paraphrasing, that is how your history and lineage, our roots, are kept alive and passed down. He said find a spot in the form, say like the end where you can splice in your signature move or moves without interrupting the flow. However, he stated, what's imperative is that you still call the form Hansuki in honor and respect to it's true creator, always. He also said he had no problem with systems using either spelling, Hansuki or Honsuki but his family always used Hansuki. He stated that even though Professor Cerio radically altered the form, he respected his right to do so and that his students should not be upset about that for it does not take away the form's value for it's Professor Cerio's personal perspective of what he learned which is of value. He said just like the masters who came before him had their own visions of kenpo so did Professor Cerio. I stand by the above information as being factual. Respectfully, Professor Joe


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## Karazenpo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karazenpo
Hi Matt, it's funny you should say that about #6 kata being the root of Circle of the Panther. When I was studying under Professor Cerio we went over all that. I am absolutely positive that he told me, so you can quote me on this, that Circle of the Panther was derived from #6 kata. Upon myself checking out this form one of the only similiarities that was really noticeable was the jumping front kick (the 'stepping stool' kick), so I don't know what to tell you but I'm sure he said this to me. Any ideas? 

Sorry Matt, I made an error on this post and I don't want to confuse anyone. The jump front kick (stepping stool kick) is not in Circle of the Panther, I was thinking of Cat Form #3, must have been in a fog when I posted that-rough night, lol. Looking into Panther, Swift Tigers & #7 Pinan (Pesare), there does appear to be a relationship with these forms where #7 pinan was the model  from which the other two were derived from. I think you're right, Professor Cerio probably mean't Circle of the Panther came from #7 but it was so long ago he probably got them confused. As I stated above, I'm sure he said it because at the time, like many, I didn't even know a #7 existed and would have questioned him on it. Gm. Pesare told me a few years ago, it was based on a drill.


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## GAB

Hi all, 

Hanshi Bruce does the katas 1-5, I have watched them numerous times.
The ones Hanshi does are prior to Kajukenbo so they must be the ones from Okinawa or China. 

Good stuff, nothing new in the Americas, only tweeked a little to fit the newbies. I think that is one of the reasons Sijo Emperado changed the names.

When computers came in the world got quite a bit smaller.

Much closer scrutiny these days.

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Hanshi Bruce does the katas 1-5, I have watched them numerous times.
> The ones Hanshi does are prior to Kajukenbo so they must be the ones from Okinawa or China.
> 
> Good stuff, nothing new in the Americas, only tweeked a little to fit the newbies. I think that is one of the reasons Sijo Emperado changed the names.
> 
> When computers came in the world got quite a bit smaller.
> 
> Much closer scrutiny these days.
> 
> Regards, Gary



Yes Gary but just so some aren't confused the kata and pinan series are two different animals, except for one form. In Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, there is an original five pinan series, where #4 was inspired by Shotokan's Heian #2 which, inturn, was modeled after Okinawan's Pinan 1. Usually, when kempo people from Sonny Gascon's lineage hear five katas, they think it refers to KGS's original series. Years ago, in the earlier Pesare/Cerio years, they were called katas and then Cerio passed on his teachings to Villari and his Shaolin Kempo Karate still refers to them as katas. Gm. Pesare went back to their original name when he had learned them and now calls the forms 'Pinans' again. To add to the confusion, Shaolin Kempo Karate also has a seperate five pinan series where #'s 3, 4 & 5 were derived from the Japanese/Okinawan series mentioned above. SK's #1 is Shotokan's Taikyoku Shodan and #2 was inspired from the other two forms, nidan and sandan from Taikyoku series. Now, LOL, to really mess things up for you and add to further confusion, Prof. Cerio changed things in 1974. He has a 3 pinan series and a five cat series. Pinan 1 is taikyoku shodan, #2 appears to have been inspired by Heain 1 but modified drastically a little less than half way through the form using several of his self defense techniques, Cerio''s #3 is Shaolin Kempo/Shotokan/Okinawan #3 and he modified traditional karate's Pinan/Heian's 3 and 4 and renamed them Cat Forms 1 & 2. How do you like those apples?, LOL, Confusing enough or what?  Fortunately, Sijo Emperado changed the name of his 14 Pinan series to Palama sets to more accurately  reflect where they came from. Kajukenbo's forms do have elements from Okinawan karate no doubt but they are original creations and are nothing like the Okinawan pinans. However, one of them is based on Okinawan's Naihanchi shodan. Take care, Joe


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## GAB

Hi Joe, 
Thanks for clearing that up. LOL 
When I asked Hanshi if they were like the Kajukenbo Katas? He said "No". 

It is spelled 'pinon' 1-5.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Joe,
> Thanks for clearing that up. LOL
> When I asked Hanshi if they were like the Kajukenbo Katas? He said "No".
> 
> It is spelled 'pinon' 1-5.
> 
> Regards, Gary



Hi, Gary, actually, in Okinawa, it is spelled pinan, check it out. We were told that sometimes it was spelled like it was pronounced which had deviations. Some spelled it pinion. Take care, Joe


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