# Original Taekwondo



## puunui (Jan 25, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Ok not to be disagreeable, but you can be  right. Many people will trace much of what became TKD to the CDK, there  is little doubt about that.
> However when I use the term "Original TKD" I am referring to Gen Choi's  TKD that they started to develop in the ROK Army. By that I mean it was  the ORIGINAL or 1st system of Korean Martial Art to apply the name TKD  to it, continuously from 1954/5 to present day.
> So it can really boil down to both semantics & definitions of how the term is applied or used.




It may be semantics George, but even under your definition, Oh Do Kwan doesn't apply because they did not use the name Taekwon-Do continuously. The Oh Do Kwan, like all the other Kwan that was part of the Korea Taesoodo Association, used the name Taesoodo to describe their art from 1961-1965. 

In fact, GM NAM Tae Hi and GM KO Jae Chun were members of the group that created the Korea Taesoodo Association. 

Modern History: "Since then, the representatives from each Kwan finally decided to gather to have a Unification Conference at the Korean National Sports Auditorium on September 14, 1961. Participants of this Conference were YOON Kwe Byung (Jidokwan representative), UHM Woon Kyu (Chung Do Kwan representative), LEE Nam Suk (Chang Moo Kwan representative), HWANG Kee (Moo Duk Kwan representative), RO Byung Jick (Song Moo Kwan representative), *NAM Tae Hi (Oh Do Kwan representative)*, PARK Chull Hee (Kang Duk Won representative ), and LEE Kyo Yun (Han Moo Kwan representative). Also in attendance were LEE Chong Woo (Jidokwan/Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan), LEE Byung Ro (Jidokwan/Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan), *KO Jae Chun (Oh Do Kwan)* and LEE Young Sup (Song Moo Kwan)."

On September 20, 1961, the name Taesoodo was voted and agreed upon. GM NAM Tae Hi, as Oh Do Kwan Jang, participated: 

Modern History: "The next part was the most sensitive topic of the meeting, which was the naming of the art. *NAM Tae Hi* said "I strongly suggest that the name has to be Taekwondo because the name Taekwondo was passed when the meeting had been held in 1959." UHM Woon Kyu agreed with *NAM Tae Hi *but YOON Kwe Byung said: "We agreed on the name Taekwondo unanimously because the Ministry of Education decided on the name
Taekwondo, so it was not agreed unanimously." YOON also said, "And so we suggest Kong Soo Do be the name." YOON Kwe Byung was serious and his idea was that the name ong Soo Do (Karate Do) was the name recognized internationally, which was his strong argument. RO Byung Jick and LEE Nam Suk agreed with this. Because YOON Kwe Byung realized that the situation was going to messed up, he suggested Tae Soo Do, which came from Tae (Taekwondo) and Soo (Kong Soo Do). After the voting, the result was Taesoodo, which had 4 votes for and 2 votes abstention."

The first President of the Korea Taesoodo Association, General CHOI Myung Shin, was at the time Chairman of the ROK Joint Chiefs of Staff. If you were President of the Taesoodo Association, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, would you continue to have the art called Taekwondo in the ROK military, or would you instead choose to call the art Taesoodo, which is what the organization that you are president of calls it? 

In November 1962, the KTA had its first promotion test. Participating from the Oh Do Kwan were CHOI Myung Shin, HYUN Jong Myung, KO Jae Chun and BAEK Joon Ki, among others.

Modern History: "The first Promotion Test was held at the Kuk Min Hwe Eui Dang on November 11, 1962. The Korea Taesoodo Association supported the event, along with the Korean Amateur Sports Association (KASA), the Daehan Jaekeon Kukmin Un Dong Bonbu (political party) and the Dae Han Ilbo Sa (Korea Newspaper Company). There were 25 judges and they included: *CHOI Myung Shin*, LEE Nam Suk, LEE Chong Woo, UHM Woon Kyu, PARK Chull Hee, LEE Young Sup, *HYUN Jong Myung*, HONG Jong Pyo, KIM Soon Bae, KIM Soo Jin, LEE Byung Ro, *KO Jae Chun*, LEE Kyo Yun, *BAEK Joon Ki*, among others."

At this test, the Chang Hon tul were used to test applicants from the Oh Do Kwan. 

Modern History: "CHOI Hong Hee's Chang Hon Ryu forms Ge Baek and Choong Moo used at the Oh Do Kwan was included in this promotion test."

This means that Oh Do Kwan members were given Korea Taesoodo Association dan certificates. Over and above all of this is the universal understanding that the Oh Do Kwan was a close annex kwan of the Chung Do Kwan, and the two pretty much did things in unison, including but not limited to use of the name Taesoodo. This goes farther, because the GM HYUN Jong Myung (not Myun) was a member of the KTA committee that created the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae. By including an Oh Do Kwan representative, then all factions were included in the creation of the new forms, which served to eliminate any objections to use of these forms. 

Therefore, Oh Do Kwan did NOT as you erroneously state, use the name Taekwondo continuously. Looks like you are going to have to change the name of your dojang George.


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In fairness to Karatemom, she is not the  first person that I have heard use the term 'original' taekwondo to  describe ITF TKD.  I don't care.  I know that Kukki taekwondo as I train  in it, is modern taekwondo.  If someone else wants to call whatever it  is that they do 'original' then so be it.  Doesn't change the fact that  the Kukkiwon is the largest single organization or that it is the  taekwondo that was included in the olympics.




Use of these kinds of terms, "original" or "classic" or "traditional", like the use of the term "sport" or "non-sport" or "self defense" become tools to be used to divide Taekwondo when no such division exists. It is an attempt to carve out a some sort of labeled niche, because someone feels left out or excluded from Taekwondo. The fact of the matter is that no one is excluding them, they are in fact excluding themselves by use of modifying label. There is only one Taekwondo, and we are all part of it. We don't need labels or adjectives to modify that. Taekwondo is a term of inclusion, and we do not need to change that concept with exclusionary terms and adjectives.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> Use of these kinds of terms, "original" or "classic" or "traditional", like the use of the term "sport" or "non-sport" or "self defense" become tools to be used to divide Taekwondo when no such division exists. It is an attempt to carve out a some sort of labeled niche, because someone feels left out or excluded from Taekwondo. The fact of the matter is that no one is excluding them, they are in fact excluding themselves by use of modifying label. There is only one Taekwondo, and we are all part of it. We don't need labels or adjectives to modify that. Taekwondo is a term of inclusion, and we do not need to change that concept with exclusionary terms and adjectives.


I have only ever heard the term 'original' used to denote ITF taekwondo as developed by General Choi.  Generally, I see this as a sideways attempt at saying, 'true' taekwondo by some.

In Manny's 'Sinatra' thread, the term 'classic' was used to denote the taekwondo that he learned in North America in the seventies (the era that most of us think of when the term 'classic rock' is used). Most everyone knew what he was talking about when the term was applied to it.

When I use the term modern (as in the post that you quoted), I mean Kukki taekwondo as it is practiced today, meaning current forms, current sparring rules, etc. I wouldn't have used the term at all had the whole 'original' thing not come up. 

So long as such terms are used to facilitate communication and clarify meaning, I don't see a problem in their usage. 

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Jan 25, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> ...





puunui said:


> It may be semantics George...Looks like you are going to have to change the name of your dojang George.



Did I miss a post?

KarateMomUSA = George (someone)?

Not that it really matters what someone calls their online persona, it's just that I feel like I missed an episode of my favourite show on TV...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Did I miss a post?
> 
> KarateMomUSA = George (someone)?
> 
> Not that it really matters what someone calls their online persona, it's just that I feel like I missed an episode of my favourite show on TV...


He called her Mr. Vitale in another thread.  

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Ok not to be disagreeable, but you  can be  right. Many people will trace much of what became TKD to the  CDK, there  is little doubt about that.
However when I use the term "Original TKD" I am referring to Gen Choi's   TKD that they started to develop in the ROK Army. By that I mean it was   the ORIGINAL or 1st system of Korean Martial Art to apply the name TKD   to it, continuously from 1954/5 to present day.
So it can really boil down to both semantics & definitions of how the term is applied or used._


puunui said:


> Oh Do Kwan doesn't apply because they did not use the name Taekwon-Do continuously. The Oh Do Kwan, like all the other Kwan that was part of the Korea Taesoodo Association, used the name Taesoodo to describe their art from 1961-1965.
> In fact, GM NAM Tae Hi and GM KO Jae Chun were members of the group that created the Korea Taesoodo Association.


No sir I am sorry but you may have missed my point & certainly did not address it.
Please check again, as I re-quoted my comment above in this reply.
I didn't say the ODK, I said Gen Choi's TKD. So in fact your reply actually supports my contention. As you know, Gen Choi was forced out of the military when Gen Park was consolidating his power in 1962. Gen Choi was sent to Malaysia as Ambassador. The country was in turmoil from at least April of 1960.
When Gen Choi was in Malaysia, he introduced TKD there. He with the assistance of Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim, worked on the 1st English book ever on TKD, which was completed by 1965. In fact, he used this as a selling point to pressure them to adopt the name of TKD, as the books were already being printed & would be distributed on the Kukki TKD Goodwill world tour that he got the govt to sponsor. Mr Kim & Mr Woo were also busy setting up the Malaysian TKD Federation, which was 1 of the 9 member countries that would form the ITF in 1966. From there GM Kim Bok Man spread TKD to southeast Asia, with the help of others who were following Gen Choi & getting dispatched over seas as official TKD instructors with that job title entered into their passports as early as 1964.
Vietnam, the 3rd home to TKD, after Korea & Malaysia, was also getting TKD instructors sent there from Dec of 1962, led by Nam Tae Hi, who stayed there a year before being replaced. As Gen Choi was finishing more of his Tuls, he sent them to Vietnam, even traveling there himself at least 1 time before 1965.
It is clear that they were using TKD continuously, even if some others did accept & use the name Tae Soo So.
Gen Woo Jong Lim also opened a civilian ODK gym. he set up the 1st TKD tournament ever. That was in 1962, after the others were using the Tae Soo Do name.
Also keep in mind Col Nam Tae Hi, did not want to use the Tae Soo Do name. he wanted TKD. He was out voted & he himself did not vote for the name Tae Soo Do.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> Modern History: "CHOI Hong Hee's Chang Hon Ryu forms Ge Baek and Choong Moo used at the Oh Do Kwan was included in this promotion test."


Yes & they also used HwaRang Tul, ChungMu Tul, UlJi Tul & SamIl Tul, all devised by Gen Choi & his team, who did use the name TKD continuously from 1954/5.
In fact they shouted Tae Kwon, when they saluted each other as well.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> Use of these kinds of terms, "original" or "classic" or "traditional", like the use of the term "sport" or "non-sport" or "self defense" become tools to be used to divide Taekwondo when no such division exists. It is an attempt to carve out a some sort of labeled niche, because someone feels left out or excluded from Taekwondo. The fact of the matter is that no one is excluding them, they are in fact excluding themselves by use of modifying label. There is only one Taekwondo, and we are all part of it. We don't need labels or adjectives to modify that. Taekwondo is a term of inclusion, and we do not need to change that concept with exclusionary terms and adjectives.


Agreed. There is 1 TKD. We are all TKD. However there are some obvious differences in styles or emphasis, focus, sports rules, patterns used etc.
TKD is a term of inclusion & its history should reflect that inclusion as well.

I for one do not fell left out. But would point out to actually be inclusive, we have to include. For instance, there are only 2 major ways to balance the budget, raise taxes or cut spending (govt), for families & businesses raise revenue/income or cut spending.
So working together is not inclusive if 1 side says I think we should raise revenue/taxes/income, so agree with me. Inclusive may be better if we try to cut some spending & raise some revenue, a compromise of sorts, working with the other side to some extent.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I have only ever heard the term 'original' used to denote ITF taekwondo as developed by General Choi.  Generally, I see this as a sideways attempt at saying, 'true' taekwondo by some.


Just to clarify, I use the term original to simply state that it was the 1st style or system that actually used the label TKD.
True TKD to me is an individual things, which I addressed on another thread.
Because I say that Gen Choi used the name from its inception to his passing & hs followers still do, that does not mean that it is true or better in any way, shape or form. In fact the opposite is often true, Kukki, Olympic or WTF TKD is the TKD that most think of when they hear TKD. It is the larger, more powerful & more popular TKD.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 26, 2011)

I think a lot of people attach words like 'self defence', 'old school', 'classical' etc to try to explain to the general public what they do. I know when I first started tkd and my mates found out they would say "isnt that the one you see in the olympics with all the kicking?" or "I did tkd but there was no punching so I changed to karate" or "oh, I could never do tkd, there are too many high, flashy kicks" etc. It got frustrating because they thought I was doing something different to what I was actually doing so I started to subconsciously say things like "I do a self defence related form of tkd" or "original tkd", it wasnt because I felt segregated from tkd, or I had anything against sport tkd, it was just my way of trying to better describe what I did.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 26, 2011)

When I first stepped into a taekwondo class, the class was called a self defense class.  You know, "When you take Jhoon Rhee *self defense*, then you too can say...."

Until fairly recently (within the past decade) I considered all martial arts to be simply be self defense in a different idiom.  Taekwondo was Korean striking self defense.  Hapkido was Korean striking and grappling self defense.  Karate was Okinawan striking self defense.  You get the idea.  

Now, I call them all fighting systems with both self defense and sport applications, with the primary difference between sport and SD having more to do with the individual school and the focus of the student than with the art.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes Sir it would make some sense to move that debate, but I kept it here as this is a debate about the history of TKD by Gen Choi. I am also aware that many people may not be as interested as others, myself included are about details of TKD's history. So I felt it may be best to limit it to this thread, which has been pretty extended with some good info.
> Anyone can take issue with anything that is posted on a public discussion forum such as this. The debate is facilitated & info shared, when posters stay on point & respond with specific contrary info to counter or additional info to support.
> It is pretty clear that while some may not agree, there really has not been evidence to counter. I think that Puunui's use of the Modern History supports my point. The Modern History does really confirm this. I can go back & bring forward the specific counter points I responded with, if needed, or those interested can simply go back a page or 2.


I didn't say anything about moving it. I said that it was a pointless arguement. 

But since a thread devoted to the topic has been started, I'll respond.

You're talking about a term that was retroactively applied to what the first five kwans were doing, so who used it first and who used it continuously has no substantive meaning with regards to originality. 

So Gen Choi used ther term continuously to describe his Chang Hon system. With respect, so what? 

Unless you are willing to argue that what what the five early kwans were doing was *not *taekwondo (which neither General Choi nor the Kukki pioneers were wiling to do), then calling Chang Hon 'original taekwondo' is a misapplication of the word original and only serves to generate...

...pointless argument.

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Did I miss a post?
> 
> KarateMomUSA = George (someone)?




Yes, KarateMomUSA is an ITF practitioner named George Vitale, who some describe as "renowned scholar of _Taekwon-Do_ history". I find that description strange, given the fact that he wants me to continue to teach him about history.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No sir I am sorry but you may have missed my point & certainly did not address it. Please check again, as I re-quoted my comment above in this reply. I didn't say the ODK, I said Gen Choi's TKD. So in fact your reply actually supports my contention.



If you say so. I am tired of responding to your nonsense George. You make this ridiculous statements and when people bring up facts that prove you wrong, you narrow or qualify your ridiculous statements to a narrow definition of your own choosing, to fit your "original" ridiculous statement. When the name Taekwondo was created in 1954 (not 1955), there was no Chang Hon tul; therefore the art that was being called Taekwondo at that time by the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan was the Chung Do Kwan curriculum. That, was what Taekwondo was, originally. The Oh Do Kwan didn't use the term Taekwondo when the KTA used the name Taesoodo. Therefore it wasn't being continuously used in Korea. So what if General Choi may have used it in Malaysia during his exile there. That doesn't count, anymore than GM LEE Won Kuk's time outside of Korea doesn't count (which you stated). 

Mr. Vitale, if you wish to be the founder and original President of the Benedict Arnold Love and Admiration Society, that really is your business. But I would think that a "renowned scholar on Taekwon-Do history" would have more integrity than to do what you are doing, which is to misrepresent things and twist facts to serve your obviously biased spin on things, and you making small concessions regarding the lies General Choi told over the years doesn't change that. You may think he did great things, but certainly the pioneers don't, and it is nuts to expect the pioneers to give him the same admiration that you do, in much the say way that it is nuts to expect George Washington, Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson to join your Benedict Arnold Love and Admiration Society. 

And by the way George, it's been at least a week, and you still haven't answered my questions to you regarding your experience with General Choi, the same questions that you asked me, and the same questions that you said you would answer but never did.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> Yes, KarateMomUSA is an ITF practitioner named George Vitale, who some describe as "renowned scholar of _Taekwon-Do_ history". I find that description strange, given the fact that he wants me to continue to teach him about history.


 
So Glenn, 

Are you saying that KaratemomUSA is actually this gent?

http://www.lacancha.com/georgevitale.html

Sheesh. This site should do what E-Budo does; require members to either post under their real name or to put their real name in their signature.

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Unless you are willing to argue that what what the five early kwans were doing was *not *taekwondo (which neither General Choi nor the Kukki pioneers were wiling to do), then calling Chang Hon 'original taekwondo' is a misapplication of the word original and only serves to generate...
> ...pointless argument.


I am not sure it would be a productive argument, but it would shed some additional light on how TKD developed & branched out along different paths.
Just to note: Gen Choi did make this argument starting at least as early as 1972 & did get more vocal over time as the divisions widened & became more contentious.
ITFers must realize that they were only giving 1 side to a partial story. They must remain open to learn more, especially from the other side. I think Puunui does a great job with that & has provided much valuable info.
There are 3 sides to every story, side "A" & side "Z", with the truth or more complete side being somewhere in between "A" & "Z"!
Lets call that side the "More Fuller Side". In order to get closer to that, we must listen to & evaluate all input & info from as many sources as possible.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You're talking about a term that was retroactively applied to what the first five kwans were doing, so who used it first and who used it continuously has no substantive meaning with regards to originality.


Yes but I am not talking about originality, but rather who originally used the name & continuously applied it to a system that they were developing.
(I know splitting hairs & some very fine hair at that, sorry)


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So Gen Choi used ther term continuously to describe his Chang Hon system. With respect, so what?


Exactly! And with respect, it is just a statement about an inane aspect of our Art's shared history. Nothing more, nothing less. Apparently it has struck a chord with some.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> You make this ridiculous statements and when people bring up facts that prove you wrong, you narrow or qualify your ridiculous statements to a narrow definition of your own choosing, to fit your "original" ridiculous statement.


No it is an attempt to refocus so we can get to the crux of the matter.
Generally speaking, the more broad a statement is, the more that generalizations can be drawn that can be all over the spectrum. The more confused the replies can get.
I will do my best to narrow statements so a more pedantic & hopefully a more productive discussion can be had.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> When the name Taekwondo was created in 1954 (not 1955), there was no Chang Hon tul; therefore the art that was being called Taekwondo at that time by the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan was the Chung Do Kwan curriculum. That, was what Taekwondo was, originally.


I do realize that the name was offered in the last month of 1954 & approved in April of 1955. The Chang Hon Tul were started before then & 2 were completed in 1955.
I also know that TKD was more of an umbrella term for what they were doing in the early kwans in 1954/5.
However my statement still remains that Chang Hon TKD was NOT original TKD, BUT the 1st system of TKD to apply the name to what they were doing AND use it non-stop since that time.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> The Oh Do Kwan didn't use the term Taekwondo when the KTA used the name Taesoodo. Therefore it wasn't being continuously used in Korea. So what if General Choi may have used it in Malaysia during his exile there. That doesn't count, anymore than GM LEE Won Kuk's time outside of Korea doesn't count (which you stated).


Yes sir we do know that the Tae Soo Do guys did not use the name TKD from 1961 till 1965. We also know that in 1965 it was Gen Choi who forced them to go back to the TKD name. We also know that this was a cause of friction between them, resulting in Gen Choi being forced out of the KTA.
I have never said anything disrespectful about GM Lee or any other person. My point about GM Lee was he was not involved in the unification efforts between 1950 & 1965, as he was not in the country. You did tell us that he returned in 1967 & then did help correct some things & make some contributions to what they were doing. 
Now even though the Tae Soo Do guys were not using the name TKD in Korea from 1961, Gen Choi's followers were. As I stated previously, Gen Woo Jong Lim held a TKD tournament in 1962, which came to eventually be ITF tournament rules. He had set up a civilian school that still used the name TKD. During that time (61-65), they continued to dispatch TKD instructors around the world, not Tae Soo Do instructors.
So my point still remains, while many in Korea did not use the name TKD, Gen Choi's followers did.
As to your other question, I did answer it, but I guess since I answered your question with a question, it didn't count for you.
While I do value your great input & info provided, it is a bit sad that you have taken what appears at times to be a somewhat harsher tone.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I am not sure it would be a productive argument, but it would shed some additional light on how TKD developed & branched out along different paths.
> Just to note: Gen Choi did make this argument starting at least as early as 1972 & did get more vocal over time as the divisions widened & became more contentious.


1972?  A bit late in the game for anyone to take him seriously on that point.  By 1972, taekwondo was well in use and Choi no longer had any monopoly on the name.  If he invented the name (I know that that is debated as well) and didn't want it applied to what the five original kwans were doing, then he should have never submitted it.  



KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes but I am not talking about originality, but rather who originally used the name & continuously applied it to a system that they were developing.
> (I know splitting hairs & some very fine hair at that, sorry)


Not splitting hairs.  You're using the word incorrectly.  If Chang Hon taekwondo had not been developed at the time the name was created and Choi and his followers were essentially doing whatever the Chungdokwan was doing, then *that* is what he applied the name to *originally*.  Not whatever he developed later.

Thus, if Choi and his followers were practicing whatever the CDK was practicing, and Choi applied the name to what he and his followers were doing, then by extension, he applied to what the CDK was doing.  Given that everyone seems to be in agreement that the original five kwans were doing variations on a theme (correct me if I am wrong), then by extension, they also get included on grounds of content.  The name was submitted in 1955, at which time the Chang Hon system was not developed as a separate system at that point and the ITF wasn't around until the mid sixties.

Which would mean that CDK would be original taekwondo, not Chang Hon or ITF.

But again, unless you or anyone else in this discussion is willing to argue that what the original kwans were doing was *not* taekwondo, then this argument is... 

...pointless. 

Especially given that your usage of the word original based entirely upon Choi's usage of the name (which he may or may not have coined depending upon who you talk to) is not one that is generally accepted.

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> 1972?  A bit late in the game for anyone to take him seriously on that point.  By 1972, taekwondo was well in use and Choi no longer had any monopoly on the name.


100% correct. By 1972 he was in exile because of his political leanings & opposition to the brutality of the military dictator. He had no power & was fighting a losing battle. He then started to use TKD & his ITF as a political tool, which was unfortunate on so many levels for so many people.
This is why many did not take him seriously, especially when we know he forced them to take the name, then lied that they stole it!


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not splitting hairs.  You're using the word incorrectly.  If Chang Hon taekwondo had not been developed at the time the name was created and Choi and his followers were essentially doing whatever the Chungdokwan was doing, then *that* is what he applied the name to *originally*.  Not whatever he developed later.
> Thus, if Choi and his followers were practicing whatever the CDK was practicing, and Choi applied the name to what he and his followers were doing, then by extension, he applied to what the CDK was doing.  Given that everyone seems to be in agreement that the original five kwans were doing variations on a theme (correct me if I am wrong), then by extension, they also get included on grounds of content.  The name was submitted in 1955, at which time the Chang Hon system was not developed as a separate system at that point and the ITF wasn't around until the mid sixties.
> Which would mean that CDK would be original taekwondo, not Chang Hon or ITF.
> But again, unless you or anyone else in this discussion is willing to argue that what the original kwans were doing was *not* taekwondo, then this argument is...
> ...


I think that we may have to agree to disagree. I am simply using original as the 1st to use the name AND added the additional identifier that they used it continuously, thats all.
Now I think that what the early kwans were all doing was basically the same, more or less. It did early on resemble what their founders learned abroad, which was essentially basic karate. Over time & in different ways, this evolved.
However a lot of people would see more of a difference between ITF & Kukki TKD today, as compared to what the kwans were doing in 1955. I also think it is a fair statement to make, those same people would see less of a difference in what the kwans were doing in 1955, than that which their founders did outside of Korea during the occupation.

So the roots for both Chang Hon & Kukki TKD were common, but the paths of development different, with different results. The gradation of those differences are often in the eye of the beholder.

I think that what became TKD today, can be traced to those early kwans & even before. However the developmental paths took place along 2 different roads, the Tae Soo Do guys & the military guys. I think that is a fair statement to say that it was TKD when those paths were taken, but their roots are a shared common starting point.

A silly analogy:
Ice Cream predates an ice cream soda or an ice cream shake. One is soda based, the other is not. They both contain shared ingredients, often to different levels. They also contain ingredients in 1, that is not found in the other. So while they both came from ice cream, they are created differently. 
So the history of both, will include ice cream as the main & starting ingredient, both the telling of that history will go forward separately, with the starting point, not the ice cream, but the people who put together these different special sweet treats.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> That is 1 way of looking at it.
> I think that they all were pretty much doing the basic karate that was brought back to Korea after & during the occupation period by 7 Koreans, with Gen Choi being 1 of the 7. He did train in karate as well. I think that while many Koreans, not limited to these 7, all had various notions or ideas & visions of how they should move forward with their Korean martial art training. So it does appear that when the name was initially submitted, it may have been as an umbrella term, even though some may have had visions of their own.
> Certainly it is common sense that it would be hard enough to get someone to adopt a name for nationalist purposes, then to change what they were doing or adopt a new system. We see how numerous attempts from the 1940s to the 1960s all fell apart, often due to who would be in charge of testing & testing standards, which gets to technical training.
> Dr Kim Un Yong & the Kukki TKD pioneers had a great idea. Their model was most successful.


So at the time that the name was submitted, Chang Hon did not exist and Choi was doing what everyone else in CDK was doing, all of which was retroactively called Taekwondo.  Choi goes on to develop the Chang Hon system and found the ITF in 1966 and the Chang Hon system reaches its full development in 1972.



KarateMomUSA said:


> By 1972 he was in exile because of his political leanings & opposition to the brutality of the military dictator. He had no power & was fighting a losing battle. He then started to use TKD & his ITF as a political tool, which was unfortunate on so many levels for so many people.
> This is why many did not take him seriously, especially when we know he forced them to take the name, then lied that they stole it!


So in 1972, Choi rebrands his Chang Hon as being the original taekwondo, using his position as head of the ITF and as one of the early figures in TKD history to lend credence to that rebranding.

Look, meaning no disrespect, you really don't have a case for Chang Hon or ITF Taekwondo being 'original taekwondo' unless you mean that it is an original system that is different from its predecessors.  Kind of how the C-5 Corvette was an original design but not the original Corvette.

But that isn't what you mean because you already defined how you mean it, though your definition needs to shop for a different word.  I don't know what that word would be, as the guy you say originally and continuously used the name was applying it to something that predates his system and federation, but which he applied to said system and federation years later, and I don't know of a single word that describes that.

While Chang Hon may have been a 'taekwondo original', it is misleading to call it 'original taekwondo.'

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I think that we may have to agree to disagree. I am simply using original as the 1st to use the name AND added the additional identifier that they used it continuously, thats all.


I am aware of that. You have explained that. The problem is that the system of taekwondo that you call 'original' was not the first to use the name because it didn't exist yet. Your usage of the word original in this context is a misapplication of the word.

Initially, you used the word without qualification, which led to Bluewaveschool's rebuttal that Chang Hon/ITF is not the original TKD. You seem a bit too educated for me to believe that you didn't think others would assume that you don't mean original to actually mean 'original.'

Your initial unqualified use of the word implies that it is the first, and again, I think that you are educated enough to know that that.

I'm willing to go with the claim that Choi coined the term (I really don't care who coined it), but just because he coined the term originally does not mean that anything that he applied it to later on was automatically the original. All that it means is that he came up with a name, submitted it for use and forced everyone else to use it (thus proclaiming all of what they were doing as taekwondo) and years later put together comprehensive Korean fighting system and applied the name to it.



KarateMomUSA said:


> Now I think that what the early kwans were all doing was basically the same, more or less. It did early on resemble what their founders learned abroad, which was essentially basic karate. Over time & in different ways, this evolved.
> However a lot of people would see more of a difference between ITF & Kukki TKD today, as compared to what the kwans were doing in 1955. I also think it is a fair statement to make, those same people would see less of a difference in what the kwans were doing in 1955, than that which their founders did outside of Korea during the occupation.


Nobody disputes this, but this has nothing to do with originality. If anything, it undermines your appellation of the word to ITF taekwondo.



KarateMomUSA said:


> So the roots for both Chang Hon & Kukki TKD were common, but the paths of development different, with different results. The gradation of those differences are often in the eye of the beholder.


The difference in forms is not in the eye of the beholder. Original taekwondo used Heian forms. Kukki taekwondo uses Taegeuk forms. These forms are technically different from one another.

Sine wave is a specific method of power generation unique to the ITF and not used originally by anyone in taekwondo. This is not an 'eye of the beholder' difference. 

Sport and tournament rules are different between the ITF and WTF. How is this gradation in the eye of the beholder?



KarateMomUSA said:


> I think that what became TKD today, can be traced to those early kwans & even before. However the developmental paths took place along 2 different roads, the Tae Soo Do guys & the military guys. I think that is a fair statement to say that it was TKD when those paths were taken, but their roots are a shared common starting point.


What are you saying? That taekwondo was not taekwondo until Choi went out and founded his own system? After which Kukki and CHang Hon TKD were now officially TKD, but the common root was not?



KarateMomUSA said:


> A silly analogy:
> Ice Cream predates an ice cream soda or an ice cream shake. One is soda based, the other is not. They both contain shared ingredients, often to different levels. They also contain ingredients in 1, that is not found in the other. So while they both came from ice cream, they are created differently.
> So the history of both, will include ice cream as the main & starting ingredient, both the telling of that history will go forward separately, with the starting point, not the ice cream, but the people who put together these different special sweet treats.


Not silly, but inapplicable, as ice cream soda isn't claiming to be original ice cream.

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> As I stated previously, Gen Woo Jong Lim held a TKD tournament in 1962, which came to eventually be ITF tournament rules. He had set up a civilian school that still used the name TKD.




He did that under the Taesoodo Association and name: 

Modern History: The Korea Taesoodo
Association moved its offices to the KASA building, Suite 323, on May 1, 1963, and the following was a list of KTA officials at the time:
President (Hwe Jang): CHOI Myung Shin
Vice President (Bu Hwe Jang): HYUN Jong Myun, LEE Chong Woo
Executive Director (Jun Moo E Sa): PARK Chul Hee, UHM Woon Kyu
Executive Council (Chong Moo E Sa): LEE Byung Ro
*Executive Official of Game (Kyong Ki E Sa): WOO Jong Lim*
Director (E Sa): LEE Yong Woo, CHOI Ki Yong, JUNG Jin Yong, LEE Kyo Yun, KIM Soon Bae, BAEK Joon Ki, LEE Young Sup, LEE Byong Keon
Inspector (Kam Sa): KIM Bong Sik, LEE Ryong Hong
Head Official (Sa Moo Jang): KIM Wan Soo


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> By 1972 he was in exile because of his political leanings & opposition to the brutality of the military dictator.




By 1972, General Choi left Korea voluntarily because he saw the handwriting on the wall. Dr. Un Yong KIM was in charge, they built or was building the Kukkiwon, the pioneers were creating the Taeguek poomsae to unify the kwans, the first World Taekwondo Championships were set for May 1973, which included plans to start the WTF, and the KTA started up the International Master Instructor program, which was designed for instructors who were going to teach internationally, which previously General Choi felt was "his" territory. So he left the country and left his family back, and it took a long time for them to come out because it was hard to leave Korea. As GM Cho stated, it took months or even years to leave the country. With Dr. Kim in charge, Taekwondo was set to go global. General Choi knew this and got the hell out of Dodge. 

All the rest is just crap. GM LEE Chong Woo addresses this: 

[Reporters Comment]: President Choi makes his own point that his relationship
with President Chung Hee Park became uncomfortable due to his opposition to the
revision of the constitution that would allow a third presidential term, and there was an
organized plot in the Taekwondo community that might harm him.

[Chong Woo Lees Response]: That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting
around situations by cooking up different stories. He tells stories one way in one place,
and then when he is asked, 'Isn't this story different from the one you just gave few
minutes ago?' he manages to gloss over it saying, 'That one was a joke and this one is the real story.' During President Chung Hee Park's term when Hong Hi Choi was serving as
Ambassador to Malaysia, he was called home and accused of embezzlement of official
government funds. Meanwhile, Un Yong Kim, who was working for the Presidential
Security Service for the Blue House, was coming into the Taekwondo leadership, and
Choi slipped out and ran away. I can give you a lot of evidence of his lies.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> My point about GM Lee was he was not involved in the unification efforts between 1950 & 1965, as he was not in the country.




Wrong, he removed GM SON Duk Sung as Chung Do Kwan Jang and appointed GM UHM Woon Kyu in his place. That was a big move towards the unification efforts. Also, the Chung Do Kwan seniors kept in touch with GM Lee throughout the entire time that he was away, including when GM Lee moved to the United States. His influence permeates Taekwondo, in a very positive way.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Look, meaning no disrespect, you really don't have a case for Chang Hon or ITF Taekwondo being 'original taekwondo' unless you mean that it is an original system that is different from its predecessors.  Kind of how the C-5 Corvette was an original design but not the original Corvette.




Mr. KarateMom really doesn't have a case for most, if not all of his arguments, mainly because it is based primarily upon the lies told by General Choi. General Choi was the most destructive person in Taekwondo. He went out of his way to create separation and division in the art, and we all have to suffer to a certain degree because of it. Look at how much suffering the topic of General Choi has caused the readers of MT.


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## miguksaram (Jan 27, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think a lot of people attach words like 'self defence', 'old school', 'classical' etc to try to explain to the general public what they do.


The overall problem with it all is that people get hung up on what is "old school" and "classical".

When does old school start?  I  began training in 1980.  So am I old school?  As far as classical is concerned I run into this argument all the time especially in Karate circles.  "My sensei taught us the proper classical way of the form"  According to who?

Even Funakoshi stated that what he taught was not how he learned, and what his students were teaching wasn't exactly how they learned, but there was nothing wrong with that and in the future, shotokan will not look like what he first did because people will adpat it to what works for them and that is ok.

Using the term Original TKD from either side will always be misleading because regardless of the intent of the label it still signifies that one side taught the true art and the other side did not.  Like Glenn said, it is all one art.  People just decided to smack a label on it and suddenly.  This is just like if Funakoshi's followers say he taught original karate simply because he named it.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So at the time that the name was submitted, Chang Hon did not exist and Choi was doing what everyone else in CDK was doing, all of which was retroactively called Taekwondo.  Choi goes on to develop the Chang Hon system and found the ITF in 1966 and the Chang Hon system reaches its full development in 1972.


Gen Choi, like the others were doing basic Korean karate, brought to Korea by 7 koreans, Gen Choi being 1 of them that studied martial arts abroad. While the time 1954/5 came around there was naturally some difference in what people were doing, how they were doing it & what the emphasized. That to me is common sense. However we don't really know too much about this part of the formative years, as efforts were made to gloss over it for obvious nationalist reasons, some even label it as the disorder period. Some official accounts spent pages on what happened in Korea 2,000 years ago & only a paragraph or 2 about this all important starting point. Unfortunately this is a hand we have been dealt.
People do like to apply the name TKD retroactively to this period, but I am not sure that it can stand up to close scrutiny.
The Chang Hon system was not fully developed by 1972, but pretty much codified by then. It was however this system that was 1st developed in the ROK Army & continued outside of the military that 1st applied the name TKD to it, not retroactively, but in 1955 & continuously from that point forward. Gen Choi never adopted or accepted the name Tae Soo Do, in 1961 when it was implemented. In 1962, in Korea his followers did hold a TKD tournament, while the others did start to have Tae Soo Do accepted in the Korean National Festival. He & his followers, who were being dispatched to Vietnam & Malaysia from 1962 forward, did so under the TKD name.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> So in 1972, Choi rebrands his Chang Hon as being the original taekwondo, using his position as head of the ITF and as one of the early figures in TKD history to lend credence to that rebranding.


Yes which was very divisive & hard to forgive by many TKDin. Because of his Korean politics, opposition to the military dictatorships which were very oppressive, Gen Choi used TKD & his ITF for his political agenda, much to the detriment of all TKD, including those in the ITF.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Look, meaning no disrespect, you really don't have a case for Chang Hon or ITF Taekwondo being 'original taekwondo' unless you mean that it is an original system that is different from its predecessors.  Kind of how the C-5 Corvette was an original design but not the original Corvette.


Of course it is different now from its roots in the Army. All of TKD is different from where it started, no? No disrespect taken.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> But that isn't what you mean because you already defined how you mean it, though your definition needs to shop for a different word.  I don't know what that word would be, as the guy you say originally and continuously used the name was applying it to something that predates his system and federation, but which he applied to said system and federation years later, and I don't know of a single word that describes that.
> 
> While Chang Hon may have been a 'taekwondo original', it is misleading to call it 'original taekwondo.'


Like the trouble you may be running into on the true TKD section, I am not trying to mislead & offer a concise definition for my use of the descriptor original. I think you may be focusing on the word original as a noun. I am using the word original as an adjective:
adjective 
1. belonging or pertaining to the origin or beginning of something, or to a thing at its beginning: The book still has its original binding. 
2. new; fresh; inventive; novel: an original way of advertising. 
3. arising or proceeding independently of anything else: an original view of history. 
4. capable of or given to thinking or acting in an independent, creative, or individual manner: an original thinker. 
5. created, undertaken, or presented for the first time: to give the original performance of a string quartet. 
6. being something from which a copy, a translation, or the like is made: The original document is in Washington. 
noun 
7. a primary form or type from which varieties are derived. 
8. an original work, writing, or the like, as opposed to any copy or imitation: The original of this is in the British Museum. 
9. the person or thing represented by a picture, description, etc.: The original is said to have been the painter's own house. 
10. a person whose ways of thinking or acting are original: In a field of brilliant technicians he is a true original. 
11. Archaic . an eccentric person. 
12. Archaic . a source of being; an author or originator.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am aware of that. You have explained that. The problem is that the system of taekwondo that you call 'original' was not the first to use the name because it didn't exist yet. Your usage of the word original in this context is a misapplication of the word.
> Initially, you used the word without qualification, which led to Bluewaveschool's rebuttal that Chang Hon/ITF is not the original TKD. You seem a bit too educated for me to believe that you didn't think others would assume that you don't mean original to actually mean 'original.'
> Your initial unqualified use of the word implies that it is the first, and again, I think that you are educated enough to know that that.
> I'm willing to go with the claim that Choi coined the term (I really don't care who coined it), but just because he coined the term originally does not mean that anything that he applied it to later on was automatically the original. All that it means is that he came up with a name, submitted it for use and forced everyone else to use it (thus proclaiming all of what they were doing as taekwondo) and years later put together comprehensive Korean fighting system and applied the name to it.


See my above post as I am not using original as a noun, but as an adjective.
Thank you for the kind assumption. I assure you that I use the term original with the name of TKD only to demonstrate who used it 1st & continuously. Nothing more. While that term, without the context can generate discussion & it has, that is a good thing, as it does allow for more exchanges of historical info.
We really would not be having this debate if:
The KTA did not change the name to TKD in 1965
or
If the KTA went back to them name Tae Soo Do that they preferred when the pushed Gen Choi out of the KTA.
But since none of that happened, we can now engage in the narrow debated about who used the name, when, who dropped the name & who never did.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The difference in forms is not in the eye of the beholder. Original taekwondo used Heian forms. Kukki taekwondo uses Taegeuk forms. These forms are technically different from one another.


I will split some more hairs here. The karate katas Heian were called Peihan/Pyongan (spelling is way off) by the original & early kwans that preceded TKD, that were the roots of TKD. Kukki TKD used the Palgwe forms before they used the taeguek Poomsae & some still use the Palgwes & Pihan katas, but maybe they are more independent or stuck in the past! 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sine wave is a specific method of power generation unique to the ITF and not used originally by anyone in taekwondo. This is not an 'eye of the beholder' difference.
> Sport and tournament rules are different between the ITF and WTF. How is this gradation in the eye of the beholder?


Some people will simply see people in pajama like clothes do some type of floor routine, making little or no distinction. The same can be said for fighting in pajamas, with kicks.
However some may see the karate link in some forms greater than that of other sets & or how they are actually performed. Some will focus on the commonality while others the differences. Same with fighting, but a much different comparison. Maybe beauty was the right word, sorry.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> What are you saying? That taekwondo was not taekwondo until Choi went out and founded his own system? After which Kukki and CHang Hon TKD were now officially TKD, but the common root was not?


I am not sure exactly. It does seem that it was suggested as a new term, more umbrella like, than system specific. But we do know that the different kwans did not accept it or unite, till much later. The bottom line is that he called what they were doing in the Army & what they continued outside of the Army as TKD, continuously from 1955. No one else can state that. But the others would still be Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do or Tae Soo Do.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> He did that under the Taesoodo Association and name:
> *Executive Official of Game (Kyong Ki E Sa): WOO Jong Lim*


Yes he worked with the Tae Su Do guys, movement etc, but he held a tournament in 1962 & called it TKD.
Gen Choi & his followers used the name TKD continuously, it seemed the others did not.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> By 1972, General Choi left Korea voluntarily because he saw the handwriting on the wall. Dr. Un Yong KIM was in charge, they built or was building the Kukkiwon, the pioneers were creating the Taeguek poomsae to unify the kwans, the first World Taekwondo Championships were set for May 1973, which included plans to start the WTF, and the KTA started up the International Master Instructor program, which was designed for instructors who were going to teach internationally, which previously General Choi felt was "his" territory. So he left the country and left his family back, and it took a long time for them to come out because it was hard to leave Korea. As GM Cho stated, it took months or even years to leave the country. With Dr. Kim in charge, Taekwondo was set to go global. General Choi knew this and got the hell out of Dodge.


Yes you are right, Dr Kim was going global. They had a law passed requiring everyone to pay taxes with their dojangs & get authorization from the KKW etc. I understand that.
However Gen Choi's source of his political problems were not from TKD, but his opposition that many had in south Korea to Gen Park changing the constitution yet again & making it possible for him to run without opposition forever! Now since he was losing power & political clout since 1961/2, he did not have the resources or skills to continue his vision for his TKD. One of the ways the political opposition sought to silence him was to take away his TKD stage which already afforded him a world platform. These attempts to silence his opposition, which no doubt increased when he fled Korea, also increased, as we know from many sources both in & outside the TKD world, that the long arm of the KCIA reached around the world, especially in the Western nations, as south Korea was aligned with them & had established diplomatic relations which allowed the KCIA greater access & ease of movement.
So it is both, as both influenced the other.
You are a learned person, who appears to be very well read & highly knowledgeable. I would respectfully suggest that you refer a bit more to the context of the times TKD was developed in, as south Korea was not the country it now is (2011) that it was during the occupation, the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s & the rest of the 20th century. Civilian elected democracy did not come till the 1990s.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> Wrong, he removed GM SON Duk Sung as Chung Do Kwan Jang and appointed GM UHM Woon Kyu in his place. That was a big move towards the unification efforts. Also, the Chung Do Kwan seniors kept in touch with GM Lee throughout the entire time that he was away, including when GM Lee moved to the United States. His influence permeates Taekwondo, in a very positive way.


Yes his influence does permeate TKD, no doubt about that. he was however not directly involved in the sense of being in Korea & having a seat at the table. I know his influence was great. I acknowledge that a long time ago, as I have always felt that. I even stated that I could make a case fr him being considered the founder of TKD


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> Mr. KarateMom really doesn't have a case for most, if not all of his arguments, mainly because it is based primarily upon the lies told by General Choi. General Choi was the most destructive person in Taekwondo. He went out of his way to create separation and division in the art, and we all have to suffer to a certain degree because of it. Look at how much suffering the topic of General Choi has caused the readers of MT.


Because you say such things, does not take away from the influence & positive effects that Gen Choi's TKD had on countless numbers of students all around the world & still does to this day, with what he left behind.
Now I already stipulated that Gen Choi was a destructive person & caused great division in TKD. There can be real doubt about that. He did not follow what the others laid out on their path, he took another path & even fought hard against Kukki TKD inclusion in the Olympics, still another reason for Korean nationals to hate him.
But none of that takes away from the positive he did for so many, outside of the Kukki TKD way or sphere of influence.

Many say that Robert E Lee was 1 of America's greatest military generals. Many say he fought on the wrong side of their Civil War & can never be forgiven for fighting to preserve the confederates cause, namely slavery. But that does not take away the fact that he was a great general, proven in part on how he was able to prolong their cause, despite have less supplies, money & soldiers, etc.


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> See my above post as I am not using original as a noun, but as an adjective.



So what. The word doesn't change meaning because it is used as a noun or adjective.




KarateMomUSA said:


> that is a good thing, as it does allow for more exchanges of historical info.



There has been no "exchange" of information. Rather, it has been me pointing out facts, and you making rambling disjointed commentary on it. That's not an exchange George.


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> The bottom line is that he called what they were doing in the Army & what they continued outside of the Army as TKD, continuously from 1955. No one else can state that. But the others would still be Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do or Tae Soo Do.



Wrong. Again. Maybe General Choi called what they were doing in the Army as Taekwondo, but certainly the Oh Do Kwan was not doing so, at least not during 1961-65. We already went over this. As for what General Choi was doing in Malaysia, that doesn't count either, because he, like GM LEE Won Kuk, was outside of Korea and therefore he didn't count. In fact, General Choi was so out of the loop he made this comment when he returned: "When I was in Malaysia, I completed the Tul (forms), which are the most important part of Taekwondo. However, when I came back to Korea, there was no
Taekwondo, but instead there was Taesoodo." General Choi was so out of the loop that he didn't even know they changed the name, which may explain why he may have thought the name was being used continuously, which it wasn't.


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes he worked with the Tae Su Do guys, movement etc, but he held a tournament in 1962 & called it TKD. Gen Choi & his followers used the name TKD continuously, it seemed the others did not.



George, even if GM WOO Jong Lim did throw a tournament in 1962, it is highly doubtful that he would be using the name Taekwondo since the KTA was going with the name Taesoodo and the Oh Do Kwan was using that name as well. Why would they make him Chairman of the Tournament Committee if he were out there rebelling against an organization whose President was the Chairman of the ROK Joint Chiefs of Staff, his boss since he was in the ROK Army? Your claim, or General Choi's claim, doesn't make sense and doesn't fit with the facts. 

And he wasn't the only one of General Choi's "followers" who went the Taesoodo route and ended up with positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association: GM NAM Tae Hi, GM HYUN Jong Myung, GM BAEK Joon Ki, GM KIM Bong Sik, GM CHA Soo Young, GM KO Jae Chun, and other Oh Do Kwan members also got positions. And why not, since the President of the KTA at the time was a General in the ROK Army.


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes you are right, Dr Kim was going global. They had a law passed requiring everyone to pay taxes with their dojangs & get authorization from the KKW etc. I understand that.



Mr. Vitale, this is a perfect example of disjointed thinking. What does taxes paid to the Korean government have to do with Dr. Kim going global? 




KarateMomUSA said:


> However Gen Choi's source of his political problems were not from TKD, but his opposition that many had in south Korea to Gen Park changing the constitution yet again & making it possible for him to run without opposition forever! Now since he was losing power & political clout since 1961/2, he did not have the resources or skills to continue his vision for his TKD. One of the ways the political opposition sought to silence him was to take away his TKD stage which already afforded him a world platform. These attempts to silence his opposition, which no doubt increased when he fled Korea, also increased, as we know from many sources both in & outside the TKD world, that the long arm of the KCIA reached around the world, especially in the Western nations, as south Korea was aligned with them & had established diplomatic relations which allowed the KCIA greater access & ease of movement.



You completely ignore this part of my post, which I will post again: 

[Reporters Comment]: President Choi makes his own point that his relationship
with President Chung Hee Park became uncomfortable due to his opposition to the
revision of the constitution that would allow a third presidential term, and there was an
organized plot in the Taekwondo community that might harm him.

[Chong Woo Lees Response]: That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting
around situations by cooking up different stories. He tells stories one way in one place,
and then when he is asked, 'Isn't this story different from the one you just gave few
minutes ago?' he manages to gloss over it saying, 'That one was a joke  and this one is 
the real story.' During President Chung Hee Park's term  when Hong Hi Choi was serving as
Ambassador to Malaysia, he was called home and accused of embezzlement of official
government funds. Meanwhile, Un Yong Kim, who was working for the Presidential
Security Service for the Blue House, was coming into the Taekwondo leadership, and
Choi slipped out and ran away. I can give you a lot of evidence of his lies. 		

Mr. Vitale, you have already stated your respect for GM LEE Chong Woo. So why would you ignore his words on this particular point? 




KarateMomUSA said:


> You are a learned person, who appears to be very well read & highly knowledgeable. I would respectfully suggest that you refer a bit more to the context of the times TKD was developed in, as south Korea was not the country it now is (2011) that it was during the occupation, the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s & the rest of the 20th century. Civilian elected democracy did not come till the 1990s.



George, please read GM Lee's statement above. He directly addresses this particular claim of General Choi, that he was run out because he was opposed to President Park and his "nasty Korean politics". GM Lee states that General Choi lied about that, that he lied about a lot of things. What part of "That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting around situations by cooking up different stories." don't you understand?


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Because you say such things, does not take away from the influence & positive effects that Gen Choi's TKD had on countless numbers of students all around the world & still does to this day, with what he left behind.



He left behind a whole bunch of students and "followers" who now find themselves cut off from the majority of Taekwondoin worldwide, because they have different certification, wear different uniforms, practice different forms, and have a different competition sparring format. Maybe there are those who are happy with that. But I know a whole bunch of other taekwondoin who are not. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Now I already stipulated that Gen Choi was a destructive person & caused great division in TKD. There can be real doubt about that. He did not follow what the others laid out on their path, he took another path & even fought hard against Kukki TKD inclusion in the Olympics, still another reason for Korean nationals to hate him. But none of that takes away from the positive he did for so many, outside of the Kukki TKD way or sphere of influence.



Yes it does negate it because his overall participation was grossly negative. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Many say that Robert E Lee was 1 of America's greatest military generals. Many say he fought on the wrong side of their Civil War & can never be forgiven for fighting to preserve the confederates cause, namely slavery. But that does not take away the fact that he was a great general, proven in part on how he was able to prolong their cause, despite have less supplies, money & soldiers, etc.



General Choi is not Robert E. Lee, he is Benedict Arnold. Compare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> So what. The word doesn't change meaning because it is used as a noun or adjective.


Sorry but that is not what the dictionary shows.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> Wrong. Again. Maybe General Choi called what they were doing in the Army as Taekwondo, but certainly the Oh Do Kwan was not doing so, at least not during 1961-65. We already went over this. As for what General Choi was doing in Malaysia, that doesn't count either, because he, like GM LEE Won Kuk, was outside of Korea and therefore he didn't count. In fact, General Choi was so out of the loop he made this comment when he returned: "When I was in Malaysia, I completed the Tul (forms), which are the most important part of Taekwondo. However, when I came back to Korea, there was no
> Taekwondo, but instead there was Taesoodo." General Choi was so out of the loop that he didn't even know they changed the name, which may explain why he may have thought the name was being used continuously, which it wasn't.


No you denied it again, even though there were Gen Choi's followers still doing TKD & still using it in Korea. There was a civilian ODK dojang, there was a TKD championship in 1962, they did not call it Tae Soo Do. Choi Chang Keun won the heavy weight division & it contained the several aspects of a TKD tournament that would eventually become the model for the ITF. It was set up by Kim Jong Chan & Woo Jong Lim. Additionally Choi & Rhee Ki Ha left Korea as KD instructors as their occupation in 1964, the 1st time ever it was listed as so. We also know that Nam Tae Hi left for Vietnam with the 1st batch of TKD instructors in 1962. Gen Choi also flew there from Malaysia to give them the manuscripts of his new tuls & go over them with the TKD instructors that were in Vietnam. This was also before he returned home to Korea in 1964. They also, under Gen Choi's leadership set up TKD organizations in both Malaysia & Singapore in 1963.
So while Gen Choi was forced out of the military by the new dictator, he continued TKD in Malaysia, even writing the 1st English book on TKD. While it was the nasty Korean politics that forced both Gen Choi & GM Lee out of their country, Gen Choi was most definitely still doing TKD while abroad. While I know that you said GM Lee was still in contact with his students, that may have been Tang Soo Do or Tae Soo Do, as it was not TKD prior to 1965. Only Gen Choi & his guys were still using the name TKD that the others did not want to adopt & instead went with Tae Soo Do.
It appears what you wrote only strengthens that established point.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> George, even if GM WOO Jong Lim did throw a tournament in 1962, it is highly doubtful that he would be using the name Taekwondo since the KTA was going with the name Taesoodo and the Oh Do Kwan was using that name as well. Why would they make him Chairman of the Tournament Committee if he were out there rebelling against an organization whose President was the Chairman of the ROK Joint Chiefs of Staff, his boss since he was in the ROK Army? Your claim, or General Choi's claim, doesn't make sense and doesn't fit with the facts.
> 
> And he wasn't the only one of General Choi's "followers" who went the Taesoodo route and ended up with positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association: GM NAM Tae Hi, GM HYUN Jong Myung, GM BAEK Joon Ki, GM KIM Bong Sik, GM CHA Soo Young, GM KO Jae Chun, and other Oh Do Kwan members also got positions. And why not, since the President of the KTA at the time was a General in the ROK Army.


No the tournament was TKD & not all of his followers used the Tae Soo Do name & Gen Choi never did as well. Not everyone in Korea used the Tae Soo Do name.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> GM Lee states that General Choi lied about that, that he lied about a lot of things. What part of "That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting around situations by cooking up different stories." don't you understand?


Yes I while GM Lee does deserve credit & thanks for all that he did & he may have been the most important Kukki TKD martial artist, he was also someone who had hard feelings for Gen Choi because  of the bad blood between them. One must always evaluate relationships between people as part of vetting the info that they provide. Now GM Lee said Gen Choi lied about the calligraphy that he obtained from President Rhee. But he didn't, as that was evidenced in Gen Choi's 1959 book, the 1st ever on TKD. The calligraphy is right there. Maybe GM Lee did not realize that. GM Lee also says Gen Choi embezzled money. But I have never read that anywhere before, did you? Where were the charges? Subsequent ambassador & others have said it was not true. GM Lee also said he lied about why he was forced to exile himself in 1972, the height of the brutality of the Park dictatorship. I think you may have to also ask other sources like KCIA, American intelligence, other govt officials & non TKD sources, especially those that have such bitter feelings & poor or no realtionship.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Now I already stipulated that Gen  Choi was a destructive person & caused great division in TKD. There  can be real doubt about that. He did not follow what the others laid out  on their path, he took another path & even fought hard against  Kukki TKD inclusion in the Olympics, still another reason for Korean  nationals to hate him. But none of that takes away from the positive he  did for so many, outside of the Kukki TKD way or sphere of influence.
_


puunui said:


> Yes it does negate it because his overall participation was grossly negative.


Well I guess this is another area where we will have to agree to disagree. I also respectfully suggest that your animosity towards a man apparently does not allow you much latitude in your examination of certain facts. I am not sure that unification or working closer together is facilitated with a base of harsh feelings. It does not fit well into the spirit of the arts.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Many say that Robert E Lee was 1 of  America's greatest military generals. Many say he fought on the wrong  side of their Civil War & can never be forgiven for fighting to  preserve the confederates cause, namely slavery. But that does not take  away the fact that he was a great general, proven in part on how he was  able to prolong their cause, despite have less supplies, money &  soldiers, etc._


puunui said:


> General Choi is not Robert E. Lee


Please do not twist my words. I never said that Gen Choi was Gen Lee. I simply said that many can not forgive him for fighting for what many thought was an unjust cause. But that did not take away from his many accomplishments as a shrew military tactician & beloved leader of soldiers & others. 
So people can hate Gen Choi & many may never forgive him for his anti-nationalist activity, but that does not take away from his long list of accomplishments, even if you don't agree.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Sorry but that is not what the dictionary shows.


Actually, *this:*


TheFreeDictionary.com said:


> *o·rig·i·nal*(
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
...is what the dictionary shows. The way that you are using the word is not correct usage.

The way that you used the word before qualifying your meaning implied the adjective, definition 1, or noun definition 1 or 4.

Your qualified usage matches nothing on the list.  Both the adjective definition 3 or noun definition 2 would be applicable, as his Chang Hon system was 'original' in that regard, but you made it clear that that is not what you meant.

Again, whenever someone states, without qualification, that something the original, it implies definition 1 of either the adjective or the noun.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA*
> 
> 
> _Many say that Robert E Lee was 1 of America's greatest military generals. Many say he fought on the wrong side of their Civil War & can never be forgiven for fighting to preserve the confederates cause, namely slavery. But that does not take away the fact that he was a great general, proven in part on how he was able to prolong their cause, despite have less supplies, money & soldiers, etc._
> ...


In the context of this dicussion, the General's many accomplishments are irrelevent, so please stop bringing them up in* every single thread* that you post on. 

General Choi's system of taekwondo may be *an* original taekwondo, or *a *taekwondo original, but it is not *the* original taekwondo, either chronologically or creatively.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In the context of this dicussion, the General's many accomplishments are irrelevent, so please stop bringing them up in* every single thread* that you post on.


Sorry I didn't think I did in every thread.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Actually, *this:*
> 
> ...is what the dictionary shows. The way that you are using the word is not correct usage.
> 
> ...


Yes I would have went with Adj 1, but you larger point is much better. I guess this usage is like the use of true in another thread. I think I will just say 1st to use it & continuously use it, applying it to the system that they were developing away from their roots.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes I would have went with Adj 1, but you larger point is much better. I guess this usage is like the use of true in another thread. I think I will just say 1st to use it & continuously use it, applying it to the system that they were developing away from their roots.


Okay, but adjective number one does not apply to ITF/Chang Hon taekwondo because it does not preceed all the rest.  It came out of what the original five kwans were doing, all of whom were collectively taekwondo.  The label was applied retroactively, thanks in part to Choi.  Choi applied the label to the system that he developed, but that his system is still not the original system or the first system, so adjective 1 is inapplicable.  

If anything, adjective 2B might apply: a marked departure from what was done before: new forms, new method of power generation, etc.

But first would not apply, as Chang Hon TKD and the ITF didn't exist at the time Choi began using the term.  Not to mention that he was not the only one to use it.  Nor would temorary cessation of its use by others change that fact.  

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No you denied it again, even though there were Gen Choi's followers still doing TKD & still using it in Korea. There was a civilian ODK dojang, there was a TKD championship in 1962, they did not call it Tae Soo Do.



Ok, so now you are relying on GM CK Choi's book for your arguments. According to his book, there is a photo which shows "Instructor Woo Jong Lim opened the first civilian Tae Kwon Do [Oh Do Kwan] school in Won Ju City, Korea." But the date on the photo is 1960, which was before the Taesoodo name was created. There is also also a photo of the first Oh Do Kwan championships in 1962, with word written with a sharpie in english. But the photo is cut off on the bottom, so you cannot see the rest of the writing. But George, even assuming all of that is true, GM Woo was KTA tournament committee chair in 1963, which means he wasn't using the name Taekwondo continuously. I should also mention that I looked GM Woo's name in the Kukkiwon promotion records and he is listed as a Kukkiwon 8th Dan. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Choi Chang Keun won the heavy weight division & it contained the  several aspects of a TKD tournament that would eventually become the  model for the ITF. It was set up by Kim Jong Chan & Woo Jong Lim.



GM CK Choi's book also says that, but it also shows his Taesoodo certificate from the 1963 KTA Championships. He also went on exchanges to Japan as part of the Taesoodo group. So that means he and his school was a part of Taesoodo, which means he wasn't using the name Taekwondo continuously either. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Additionally Choi & Rhee Ki Ha left Korea as KD instructors as their occupation in 1964, the 1st time ever it was listed as so.



They left from Korea, which means that they were using the name Taesoodo when they left, which means they weren't using the name continuously either. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> We also know that Nam Tae Hi left for Vietnam with the 1st batch of TKD instructors in 1962.



Wrong, GM NAM Tae Hi was part of the Taesoodo group in 1962, so if he "left for Vietnam with the 1st batch of ... instructors in 1962" it was with a batch of Taesoodo instructors. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Gen Choi also flew there from Malaysia to give them the manuscripts of his new tuls & go over them with the TKD instructors that were in Vietnam. This was also before he returned home to Korea in 1964.



Mr. Vitale, why would the ambassador to Malaysia fly to Vietnam? If he used government monies for this trip, which obviously was personal business, then that could be part of the allegations of embezzlement against him. As for how GM Nam got the "manuscripts" from General Choi, GM Weiss told us that GM Nam told him that they got it over the mimeograph machine, not in person. General Choi basically faxed it over to GM Nam and GM Nam worked out the forms. The actor director thing. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> They also, under Gen Choi's leadership set up TKD organizations in both Malaysia & Singapore in 1963.



Using who, instructors who lived in Korea and were part of the KTA, and Taesoodo Oh Do Kwan? 




KarateMomUSA said:


> So while Gen Choi was forced out of the military by the new dictator, he continued TKD in Malaysia, even writing the 1st English book on TKD. While it was the nasty Korean politics that forced both Gen Choi & GM Lee out of their country, Gen Choi was most definitely still doing TKD while abroad.



So what, the point you made was that GM LEE Won Kuk was out of the country, and therefore out of the loop. And he was out of the loop because even General Choi is quoted that he was surprised there was no Taekwondo when he returned, only Taesoodo. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> While I know that you said GM Lee was still in contact with his students, that may have been Tang Soo Do or Tae Soo Do, as it was not TKD prior to 1965. Only Gen Choi & his guys were still using the name TKD that the others did not want to adopt & instead went with Tae Soo Do.



Again, no they weren't using it. In fact, all of the so called "followers of General Choi" for the most part had positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association, including all the people you mention in the post I am responding to. They were NOT using the name Taekwondo continuously, and neither was General Choi for that matter, a point which I will get to in a minute. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> It appears what you wrote only strengthens that established point.



The facts prove otherwise. But I have no doubt in my mind you still believe what you believe.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No the tournament was TKD & not all of his followers used the Tae Soo Do name & Gen Choi never did as well. Not everyone in Korea used the Tae Soo Do name.




Yeah Mr. Vitale, not everyone, just the following Oh Do Kwan members who had positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association -- GM NAM Tae Hi, GM HYUN Jong Myung, GM BAEK Joon Ki, GM KIM  Bong Sik, GM CHA Soo Young, GM KO Jae Chun, and other Oh Do Kwan members  also got positions. And why not, since the President of the KTA at the  time was a General in the ROK Army.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I also respectfully suggest that your animosity towards a man apparently does not allow you much latitude in your examination of certain facts.



George, I would consider any facts that you presented, certain or otherwise. The problem is you don't present any facts. You did cite to GM CK Choi's book, but that didn't really help you. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> I am not sure that unification or working closer together is facilitated with a base of harsh feelings. It does not fit well into the spirit of the arts.



Mr. Vitale, misrepresenting one's self as a person of the opposite sex who is involved in a different martial art does not fit well into the spirit of the arts. Wouldn't you agree?


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Sorry I didn't think I did in every thread.




You have. And not only General Choi's accomplishments, but you also mention 7 koreans, 6 kwans, nasty korean politics, the idea that we should recognize General Choi, etc.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Please do not twist my words. I never said that Gen Choi was Gen Lee.



George, no one is twisting anything, except you. Why mention Robert E. Lee if you didn't want to compare General Choi to him? 




KarateMomUSA said:


> I simply said that many can not forgive him for fighting for what many thought was an unjust cause. But that did not take away from his many accomplishments as a shrew military tactician & beloved leader of soldiers & others.
> So people can hate Gen Choi & many may never forgive him for his anti-nationalist activity, but that does not take away from his long list of accomplishments, even if you don't agree.



Mr. Vitale, do you feel the same way about Benedict Arnold?


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

By the way, I forgot to mention that General Choi also did not continuously use the term Taekwondo. He didn't use it, for example, when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association.


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## miguksaram (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No the tournament was TKD & not all of his followers used the Tae Soo Do name & Gen Choi never did as well. Not everyone in Korea used the Tae Soo Do name.


Or was the tournament called the Oh Do Kwon Championships?  Later renamed to TKD Championships.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Sorry I didn't think I did in every thread.


Pretty much.  The subject is fairly thematic in your posts.  Though I don't agree with your perspective in this regard, it doesn't bother me one way or the other.  

The problem with making the issue of credit a part of every discussion is that it tends to make every thread that you post in take essentially the same general path.  One or two threads debating the subject is fine, but the only people that seem to have enough interest to discuss it thread after thread are Glenn and yourself.  In one or two threads, the rest of us could simply leave you two to your debate and only chime in when we have something to offer.  But when it permeates the entire board, it becomes problematic.

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The problem with making the issue of credit a part of every discussion is that it tends to make every thread that you post in take essentially the same general path.




It's like Mr. Vitale can only speak about one subject area, giving credit to General Choi. Other ITF members on MT are able to speak about different subjects, but not him.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> GM CK Choi's book also says that, but it also shows his Taesoodo certificate from the 1963 KTA Championships. He also went on exchanges to Japan as part of the Taesoodo group. So that means he and his school was a part of Taesoodo, which means he wasn't using the name Taekwondo continuously either.


I actually think that he says that he was left off that team that went to Japan, as they were Tae Soo Do & he was TKD.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> They left from Korea, which means that they were using the name Taesoodo when they left, which means they weren't using the name continuously either.


No they were not. They were TKD & were actually the 1st 2 TKD instructors to leave Korea as such. It was recorded as TKD in the paperwork when they were approved to travel. 



puunui said:


> Wrong, GM NAM Tae Hi was part of the Taesoodo group in 1962, so if he "left for Vietnam with the 1st batch of ... instructors in 1962" it was with a batch of Taesoodo instructors.


Even the Modern History says TKD instructors. Or is that another translation error?



puunui said:


> Mr. Vitale, why would the ambassador to Malaysia fly to Vietnam? If he used government monies for this trip, which obviously was personal business, then that could be part of the allegations of embezzlement against him. As for how GM Nam got the "manuscripts" from General Choi, GM Weiss told us that GM Nam told him that they got it over the mimeograph machine, not in person. General Choi basically faxed it over to GM Nam and GM Nam worked out the forms. The actor director thing.


Maybe that is why we never heard of this from anyone, except GM Lee Chong Woo, who knows, but he did go to Vietnam, but GM Nam was no longer there. He left & was replaced. So while Gen choi may have transmitted papers to him while he was there, Gen Choi went there himself after GM Nam left.



puunui said:


> Again, no they weren't using it. In fact, all of the so called "followers of General Choi" for the most part had positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association, including all the people you mention in the post I am responding to. They were NOT using the name Taekwondo continuously, and neither was General Choi for that matter, a point which I will get to in a minute.


Well it seems that you are making an argument that Gen Choi it was more limited to Gen Choi. What will come next, that as a result of that, Gen Choi should be called the father of TKD, as he never abandoned his name?


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> So what, the point you made was that GM LEE Won Kuk was out of the country, and therefore out of the loop. And he was out of the loop because even General Choi is quoted that he was surprised there was no Taekwondo when he returned, only Taesoodo.
> The facts prove otherwise. But I have no doubt in my mind you still believe what you believe.


No Gen Choi's situation was very different than GM Lee's. While it was true that Korean politics played a part in both of them leaving Korea, Gen Choi was assigned as the 1st Korean Ambassador to Malaysia. As such, he was living in & working at the Korean Embassy, which is officially part of Korea & comes under Korea's sovereignty. Koreans know this, as those that escape to the north seek refuge at the ROK Embassy & other like minded Embassies in China that will allow them refugee status & help them to escape. China knows this & this is why their guards try to prevent that from barging in. So Gen Choi never technically left Korea & he never abandoned the name TKD, nor did he ever switch to tae soo do.
It seems that you just do not want to acknowledge what others were doing, as they were not doing it with or under the KKW & unification efforts. While this may be a terrible thing, even unforgivable, it simply does not take into account all the millions that trained under the TKD name & what they were doing & have been doing for a long time. That is fine, but it it not a view shared by all. It is a narrower viewpoint of the TKD world. So which is it, is TKD only what KKW TKD is? You also seem to say that all are TKD. But then I guess if all are TKD, which many would agree, then what they have all been doing is not TKD, which not all would agree with.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> By the way, I forgot to mention that General Choi also did not continuously use the term Taekwondo. He didn't use it, for example, when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association.


No he was elected as 3rd president & worked to have them change the name to TKD. He did so & did it in such a way that even the Modern History & you say wanted them to push him out, because of his dictatorial, authoritarian ways. While he serves as president, he never abandoned the TKD name, never. In fact he was busy rounding up support for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around the world & was finishing the 1st English book ever written on Taekwon-Do, which also came out in 1965.
The more you keep writing, the more you, the more it seems you make the case that he should be called the father of TKD or at least the father of the TKD name, as he never abandoned the child he fathered or named!


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No he was elected as 3rd president & worked to have them change the name to TKD. He did so & did it in such a way that even the Modern History & you say wanted them to push him out, because of his dictatorial, authoritarian ways. While he serves as president, he never abandoned the TKD name, never. In fact he was busy rounding up support for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around the world & was finishing the 1st English book ever written on Taekwon-Do, which also came out in 1965.



All of that, and the point (which you ignore) still remains: General  Choi did not use the term Taekwon-Do while he was President of the Korea  Taesoodo Association. Even he used the term Taesoodo, while he was  functioning at Korea Taesoodo Association president. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> The more you keep writing, the more you, the more it seems you make the case that he should be called the father of TKD or at least the father of the TKD name, as he never abandoned the child he fathered or named!



If you say so. And again, he didn't claim that he created the name in his 1965 book, all he said was that he submitted the name.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 31, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_"No he was elected as 3rd president  & worked to have them change the name to TKD. He did so & did it  in such a way that even the Modern History & you say wanted them to  push him out, because of his dictatorial, authoritarian ways. While he  serves as president, he never abandoned the TKD name, never. In fact he  was busy rounding up support for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around  the world & was finishing the 1st English book ever written on  Taekwon-Do, which also came out in 1965."_


puunui said:


> All of that, and the point (which you ignore) still remains: General  Choi did not use the term Taekwon-Do while he was President of the Korea  Taesoodo Association. Even he used the term Taesoodo, while he was  functioning at Korea Taesoodo Association president.


This is weak at best, don't you think? 
All the while as President of this KtsdA, he fought to change the name to TKD, which was a big reason why the Tae Soo Do guys forced him out!
During this time, he was still teaching TKD, putting together the 1st English book on TKD & getting the plans together for the Kukki TKD Goodwill world tour, all during 1965 & his tenure as the KTA leader.
You just seem to be narrowing the list down, but no matter how much you try to narrow it down, right there, no matter what, Gen Choi was & he was there, using the name TKD from 1954/5 forward, continuously & without a doubt, any doubt!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA*
> 
> 
> _"No he was elected as 3rd president & worked to have them change the name to TKD. He did so & did it in such a way that even the Modern History & you say wanted them to push him out, because of his dictatorial, authoritarian ways. While he serves as president, he never abandoned the TKD name, never. In fact he was busy rounding up support for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around the world & was finishing the 1st English book ever written on Taekwon-Do, which also came out in 1965."_
> ...


Meaning no disrespect, but so what?  That doesn't change the fact that ITF/Chang Hon taekwondo is not the original taekwondo.  Why are you still arguing about the usage of the name as a basis for this?  Whether or not Choi used the name continuously is actually another topic, though I consider it to be one of neglegible importance. 

Daniel


----------



## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> This is weak at best, don't you think?



It is your weak point that General Choi used the name continuously, which isn't true because again, he didn't use it when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association. The fact that General Choi was President of the Taesoodo Association really is not in dispute. Or is this one of those believe/know situations? 




KarateMomUSA said:


> All the while as President of this KtsdA, he fought to change the name to TKD, which was a big reason why the Tae Soo Do guys forced him out!



That's irrelevant to the point that he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association and used the name Taesoodo. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> During this time, he was still teaching TKD, putting together the 1st English book on TKD & getting the plans together for the Kukki TKD Goodwill world tour, all during 1965 & his tenure as the KTA leader.
> You just seem to be narrowing the list down, but no matter how much you try to narrow it down, right there, no matter what, Gen Choi was & he was there, using the name TKD from 1954/5 forward, continuously & without a doubt, any doubt!



According to General Choi's autobiography, both the english book and tour was done after August 1965, when the name was changed. And both the book and tour were self serving, because General Choi knew that they wanted him out, so he was attempting to secure his niche internationally with that book and tour, a niche which was being taken away from him in 1971-73 when Dr. Kim arrived on the scene.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> It is your weak point that General Choi used the name continuously, which isn't true because again, he didn't use it when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association. The fact that General Choi was President of the Taesoodo Association really is not in dispute. Or is this one of those believe/know situations?


 
Gen. Choi _never_ used the term Taekwon-Do during that time period?  

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 1, 2011)

Originally Posted by *puunui* 

 
_Mr. Vitale, why would the ambassador to Malaysia fly to Vietnam? If he used government monies for this trip, which obviously was personal business, then that could be part of the allegations of embezzlement against him. As for how GM Nam got the "manuscripts" from General Choi, GM Weiss told us that GM Nam told him that they got it over the mimeograph machine, not in person. General Choi basically faxed it over to GM Nam and GM Nam worked out the forms. The actor director thing._

_If the above refers to me:_

_A. I am not a GM_
_B. I do not recall any such info let alone having cnveyed any such info to anyone. _


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## KarateMomUSA (Feb 1, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Meaning no disrespect, but so what?  That doesn't change the fact that ITF/Chang Hon taekwondo is not the original taekwondo.  Why are you still arguing about the usage of the name as a basis for this?  Whether or not Choi used the name continuously is actually another topic, though I consider it to be one of neglegible importance.


No disrespect taken, but I do think that you are mixing some things up here. I did already state that I was not using the name original in that context. I further clarified that in previous posts & offered additional qualification as to my use. I then agreed that I would drop that usage as you had implied. So this is no longer the case here. Puunui is stating emphatically that Gen Choi did not use the name continuously & now moves to offer as evidence the fact that Gen Choi did not use the name TKD when he was elected as 3rd President of the KtsdA.
This is where the debate has evolved to, negligible as it may seem to some.
So my counter to his post, even if it is not important, is that while it was indeed factual that Gen Choi was elected President of the Tae Soo Do group, he:
1) worked hard to have the name changed to TKD
2) he was successful in having it changed to TKD
3) the fact that he worked & pushed so hard to have it changed to TKD & was successful was used as a major reason why he was then pushed out of the KtkdA that he in effect named, because of his authoritarian & dictatorial ways
4) this was also a source (changing the name to TKD) of the some of the hatred by some of the others towards Gen Choi
5) all throughout this time, he was writing the 1st English book on TKD, to do so, that takes much time, work & effort to lay out pages & type set, which never even once applied the name Tae Soo Do to the printing press, in fact in those days it took so long to print a book & gen Choi & his team worked long & hard on it, not even being able to included more of his patterns
6) at the same time, Gen Choi & his team were also busy planning a Kukki TKD Goodwill tour around the world, that was sponsored by the Korean govt, it was never a Tae Soo Do proposed tour, as it was Gen Choi's support team that set it up & they never did so as Tae Soo Do, as they always used TKD

So at best, while Gen Choi may have been the president of the Tae Soo Do group, he was continuously using the TKD name. 
Most people utilize some form of footwear. Lets look at  of the major groups, shoes & sneakers. Most people wear some sort of stocking or socks on their feet before they put on the footwear. I would say that Gen Choi always wore his TKD socks, even though occasionally he had to wear Tae Soo Do shoes in his official capacity as their elected President, while he fought hard to get them to adopt the name TKD, that they previously rejected, some on more than 1 occasion.


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## KarateMomUSA (Feb 1, 2011)

puunui said:


> It is your weak point that General Choi used the name continuously, which isn't true because again, he didn't use it when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association. The fact that General Choi was President of the Taesoodo Association really is not in dispute. Or is this one of those believe/know situations?
> That's irrelevant to the point that he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association and used the name Taesoodo.
> According to General Choi's autobiography, both the english book and tour was done after August 1965, when the name was changed. And both the book and tour were self serving, because General Choi knew that they wanted him out, so he was attempting to secure his niche internationally with that book and tour, a niche which was being taken away from him in 1971-73 when Dr. Kim arrived on the scene.


Self serving or not, I am sure that in 1965, Dr Kim's name was not in the TKD or Tae Soo Do scene. Self serving or not, it is all direct proof that Gen Choi used the name TKD continuously, even as President of the Tae Soo Do group. Please see my above post.
The fact that Gen Choi was the duly elected President of the Tae Soo Do group, does not negate his constant use of the name TKD. In fact, a major reason why he was pushed out by the Tae Soo Do guys was for his tireless insistence that they use the name TKD that he used from 1954/5 forward.
How can you not see this?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 1, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No disrespect taken, but I do think that you are mixing some things up here. I did already state that I was not using the name original in that context. I further clarified that in previous posts & offered additional qualification as to my use. I then agreed that I would drop that usage as you had implied.


Fair enough.



KarateMomUSA said:


> So this is no longer the case here. Puunui is stating emphatically that Gen Choi did not use the name continuously & now moves to offer as evidence the fact that Gen Choi did not use the name TKD when he was elected as 3rd President of the KtsdA.
> This is where the debate has evolved to, negligible as it may seem to some.
> So my counter to his post, even if it is not important, is that while it was indeed factual that Gen Choi was elected President of the Tae Soo Do group, he:
> 1) worked hard to have the name changed to TKD
> ...


Okay, so if you are not calling it original taekwondo anymore, then the argument over continual usage of the name by the General is moot.  

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Feb 1, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, so if you are not calling it original taekwondo anymore, then the argument over continual usage of the name by the General is moot.


In those terms yes, it is moot.
The debate continues as some do not agree that it was used continuously by Gen Choi. So the back & forth is now limited to points brought up, which ironically point to Gen Choi's continuous use.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 1, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So Glenn,
> 
> Are you saying that KaratemomUSA is actually this gent?
> 
> ...



MartialTalk requires that a full name be submitted at registration. 
This was done. A name.
It passed our review.
If this was really a concern, someone should have reported it and we would have handled it quicker.

As to E-Budo, and others real name policies....tell me, what ID do they check to confirm someone is who they say they are? None. With out an ID check, any real name policy is toothless.

And an ID is what "KarateMomUSA" will have to provide us in order to reactivate that account. 

Yours,
 Robin Locksley


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> As to E-Budo, and others real name policies....tell me, what ID do they check to confirm someone is who they say they are? None. With out an ID check, any real name policy is toothless.


I was being facitious with that comment.  I really don't care what name people choose to post under.  I really don't even care if Karate*mom* is really a dad.  Or just a dude.  Though it does make me want to turn on some Aerosmith and put on Rocky Horry Picture Show.

Mervin Rottingham


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