# Buddhist theory of ninja origin



## ninjaJim (May 3, 2005)

Hello All,



This should be an interesting post... It's my first! "NinjaJim" was a nickname they gave me in high school. Seemed fitting to use it as a sign in. Hopefully this post will shed light on what Traditional Ninjustsu is... or might be. Apologies in advance for the long post.



Since the early '80's I wanted to learn ninjutsu. I bought all of the Stephen K Hayes books and after digesting them went on to train under one of SKH's students, Mark Russo. During my tutelage I got to meet and train with Steve and Bud M on a few occasions. The training was excellent and helped me become the man I am today. In hindsight there are no regrets and I'm very grateful to have evolved as I did. After three and a half years I was 6th kyu. This was when I left, after having fully realized the politics, business and exoteric/esoteric nature of the art purported to be Ninjutsu.



Here is my explanation of the realization I had and why something this harsh would be said... (Followed by an explanation of esoteric and exoteric differences  



Probably the most important thing to understand is that instructors are like the rest of us... they need money to survive. To do this they need to market their product first which means that the product is subject to change. This "product change" is what I have witnessed over the years and although change is good it can also be bad. 



What should concern us more is why people pursue the product known as Ninjutsu. There are few who understand what it is really about and fewer who initiate their path for the reason the art was intended for. Perhaps by learning what brought the subversive practices about in days of old one would clearly understand what it meant to be a ninja. 



The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic. You see, there were/are different teachings for different people who seek enlightenment. There are general teachings for the masses and specialized teachings for a selected few. The problem is that the commoners gained access to the "good stuff". A modern equivalent would be a group in America owning a munitions depot with the latest fighter jets, tanks, etc... That would make any government nervous right?? Well the feudal lords couldn't stand the potential threat and were driven to erase the teachings and those that knew them... Enter the Ninja!!!! (God I love using a cheesy Hollywood title like this) In a very short time the monks and disciples had to get some control of their situation. Desperate times call for desperate measures and innovative approaches to overwhelming problems... Problems like, "Hey Joe we have 10,000 Heike troops coming to level the village. What do we do?"



The rest is history.



What we have today is a society where enlightenment is pursuable without fear of death. There is no need to don night vision and IR invisible khakis or to even think about physically defending our pursuits. In short, there is not a need to train as ninja did in the past. Perhaps the only good reason to train is if the movements should assist in the elevation of one's consciousness. 



The final and most important point is about esoteric and exoteric teachings. Put simply only a handful of a group of students are taught the special teachings. This is to say that one must make one hell of an impression on one's instructor before that person chooses to share the special knowledge. (All this is assuming that the instructor has anything special to disseminate) Look around your training group and you can probably see the "favorites". Look further into that small group and you'll see the chosen few. Look at what the few are attaining and decide if this is the path you want to walk.



Knowing this may save you a lot of effort in your pursuit. 



Could write lots more but will see where this goes.





Jim

PS: Could you imagine what the training curriculum and tests would be like if pursuit of certain teachings was punishable by death in this day and age??!!


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## Don Roley (May 3, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic.




No, no and no!!!!

I am sorry. I want to welcome you to martialtalk and hope that you have a good experience here. But the premis upon all of what you beleive the ninja to be is false.

Trust me on this. Ask others here about what they think my knowledge level of ninjutsu history is at. People say I am arrogent and act like I know more than others. At the same time, they tend to admit that in terms of history *I do* know more than 99 percent of the people out there.

Honestly, it is not the fact that you have a mistaken idea of what the ninja came from that disturbs me. It is the way that you state it as fact that I see as causing trouble. I do not want trouble here. I have to clean up the messes. If you really, really do not know something, could you please state it with less of a voice of authority? It would make things go so much easier around here.


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## ninjaJim (May 3, 2005)

Hi Don,

I respectfully submit to any version of history which is provable and that you might have. I'm 36 now and have had a lot of time to retrospectively study issues I could barely grasp when I was 19. It's interesting what hindsight and introspection can reveal.

From what I've read about Buddhism's history in Japan and it's affect on politics it seems that this is exactly the recipe which created the ninja. Stephen Hayes books mentioned this type of thing a bit but after cross verifying it with other accounts it seems to be the case. I'm not saying that Ninjutsu was invented spontaneously the day that troops started destroying people and places but it was al in the works. Ask a Shingon teacher about the history of those who were forced to survive in these times.

Every school of the teachings has had to fight for it's survival at one point or another. It doesn't matter if they live in China, Japan or Tibet.

This may sound silly but there was and is a magical side of Buddhism. Stuff that really works! The masses will never know because they aren't supposed to. 

Jim


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## Don Roley (May 3, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> I respectfully submit to any version of history which is provable and that you might have.



Then I suggest you start with an article I wrote about the history of the Koga ryu.

http://www.bujinkanwakodojo.com/bwd_kogaryu_history.html

You may note that I do not mention conflicts surrounding different doctrines of Buddhism as being a cause of the birth of ninjutsu. You may also note the sources I used at the bottom of the page. I will put those sources up against any you may have access to.


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## ninjaJim (May 3, 2005)

Very nice site! 

I've read similar stories in Steves books. The basic theme is the same. Japan, like China was a wild place with constant power struggles. Heck, even during WWII when the Japanese were in China the Chinese were still fighting each other!

 Buddhism's esoteric teachings were a factor in leaders decisions. 

*Shingon: Japanese Esoteric Buddhism* by
Taiko Yamasaki 

People of the era needed to know how to fight and play dirty whether they had the upper hand or not. There is no debating that. Look at Buddhism's effect on the equation though. It's interesting when the story is told from a different side. 

People have been involved in espionage and various types of warfare since the dawn of time. The reasons that they fought for are what matters more than what they did. ( As long as they won. First place winners got to live to tell about it.)

Cya tomorrow. I'm turning in.

Jim


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## Shizen Shigoku (May 3, 2005)

Wait, wait wait!


Let me get this straight:

The historic ninja on which traditional ninjutsu is based were not a product of mountain mystics under siege of . . . um, who were they again - some samurai, certainly - that learned magical martial arts from tengu?!

A progressive, complex evolution of specialized battle tactics developed over centuries? Impossible!


[/sarcasm]


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## Don Roley (May 4, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> People of the era needed to know how to fight and play dirty whether they had the upper hand or not. There is no debating that. Look at Buddhism's effect on the equation though. It's interesting when the story is told from a different side.



Exactly how?

Trust me, I have done quite a bit of research on the matter. Japan is a Buddhist country so it is always in the background. But your central point that somehow the ninja evolved out of a suppressed minority of Buddhists just does not hold water.

Again, exactly how? Not generalities, precise facts backed up by verifiable sources.


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## Shinkengata (May 4, 2005)

Somebody's getting Rol0wned.

:whip:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 4, 2005)

Oh, and Jim? If you're the guy in your avatar - do something about the positioning of that rear leg (or tell whomever it may be to do so). Otherwise someone's going to get hurt.


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## Mickey Mullins (May 4, 2005)

Hello Jim,

You wrote:


> The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic. You see, there were/are different teachings for different people who seek enlightenment. There are general teachings for the masses and specialized teachings for a selected few. The problem is that the commoners gained access to the "good stuff". A modern equivalent would be a group in America owning a munitions depot with the latest fighter jets, tanks, etc... That would make any government nervous right?? Well the feudal lords couldn't stand the potential threat and were driven to erase the teachings and those that knew them... Enter the Ninja!!!! (God I love using a cheesy Hollywood title like this) In a very short time the monks and disciples had to get some control of their situation. Desperate times call for desperate measures and innovative approaches to overwhelming problems... Problems like, "Hey Joe we have 10,000 Heike troops coming to level the village. What do we do?"


Alot of the history(as well as techniques) in Mr.Hayes"early"books were incorrect(no big deal...as he hadn't trained all that long when they were wrote).

Later you wrote:


> From what I've read about Buddhism's history in Japan and it's affect on politics it seems that this is exactly the recipe which created the ninja. Stephen Hayes books mentioned this type of thing a bit but after cross verifying it with other accounts it seems to be the case. I'm not saying that Ninjutsu was invented spontaneously the day that troops started destroying people and places but it was al in the works. Ask a Shingon teacher about the history of those who were forced to survive in these times.
> 
> Every school of the teachings has had to fight for it's survival at one point or another. It doesn't matter if they live in China, Japan or Tibet.
> 
> This may sound silly but there was and is a magical side of Buddhism. Stuff that really works! The masses will never know because they aren't supposed to.


I believe your'e putting the cart before the horse...so to speak?Ninjutsu came before Buddhism,not vise versa .

Soooo....while they're probably were some Buddhist ninja,it is definately not a case of ninja Buddhists.If you'd like to read some more about the history of ninjutsu(besides Dons wonderful masterpiece.)buy Soke Masaaki Hatsumi's latest book.(The Way of the Ninja:Secret Techniques)

BTW,the "masses" aren't supposed to know any of this,LOL.

Mickey Mullins

(oh and Don I have no athority on any subject well other than maybe Fossil fuel extraction,just clarification for everyone)


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## Kizaru (May 4, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic.




That statement could potentially be offensive to someone who is a Buddhist. 




			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> You see, there were/are different teachings for different people who seek enlightenment. There are general teachings for the masses and specialized teachings for a selected few.


 
And how is this any different from Christianity, Islam or a major University?


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## Kizaru (May 4, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> From what I've read about Buddhism's history in Japan and it's affect on politics it seems that this is exactly the recipe which created the ninja.


Christianity, being the dominant religion in the West, has had an influence on politics in the United States of America. With the same logic you've stated above, one could say that Christianity's effect on American politics was exactly the recipe which created the CIA.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> This may sound silly but there was and is a magical side of Buddhism.


This may sound silly, but there was and is a magical side of LIFE.


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## ninjaJim (May 4, 2005)

I wrote a synopsis and not a detailed explanation. Sorry.
It was not intended to come across as "Thank God Buddhism stepped in and created this great art of Ninjustsu"! It's interesting to note that none of the other points have come up for discussion. What's your take on my opinion of todays situation?


Here's what I'm saying and have said. (Without using so many words) Man has had politics and warfare since the beginning. There is no doubting this. The skills which make up ninjutsu as we study it today have a history which predates buddhism. (This went without saying) 

There is a moment in time when any phenomena has it's peak. There is a moment in time when a country or a religeon shines as no other. Just as WWII brought great change to our nation so did Buddhism's effect on many nations standard of living and understanding of their world. 

This point I'm talking about is when relatively savage people discovered a flower amidst their chaos. The effect this discovery had and the meaning which it added to "the cause" which made them do what they did is what a modern practitioner of Ninjutsu should emulate.

Anyone can be a dumb oaf with loads of weapons, abilities, knowlege and strength. If there is nothing behind his actions good is he then??? Where is his salvation and happiness in this world? He is simply a paranoid fool who is playing king of an imaginary hill.

Here is my argument... When we think of ninja are we thinking simply of a well trained technician capable of doing dirty work? I would hope we would be thinking of a technician with an interest in bettering the world through silent means. A techincian who respects life and loves all yet who is capable of reflecting others evil upon them. Ideally a study of traditional Ninjustsu would incorporate a guidance system. 

There was a golden age of the art... a time when it was at it's best. The time I'm speaking about would be the time during the realization of Buddhism's benefits to humanity. As far as we should be concerned these are the only *"real" ninja* to emulate and study. (And yes I know I just opened another can of Spam against this post) LOL


What personal gain can you expect to have if you simply study the movements, history or scrolls. Not a lot. The real prize comes when you have all of these things and a personal understanding of why they are so important. For a warrior added dimension of spirituality and philosophy should be considered essential. 

Jim

PS. The picture (avatar) was taken when I was 16. This was before any real training. I began training at 18.


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## Cryozombie (May 4, 2005)

Jim, welcome to the forums.

Nim, Quit picking on Jim.  Photos are often "wrong"... you cant judge technique based on a photo, unless you know the specific context of the photo.  He could have been "in transition" into (or out of) Ichimonji there, or any number of other factors...

I could show you pics of me in HORRIBLE Kame, but its because my photographer was posing me for effect, not to make them look like perfect technique...  You just never know.  (Granted, my Taijutsu is often bad anyhow... but what do you want, I'm no master)


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 4, 2005)

There is a post somewhere around here by "some drunk in Japan" about Toshiro Mifune's character in the movie "Yojimbo" and how that relates to what I too believe to be the most reasonable description of the historical bushi of Japan. Look around for it.

Oh, and guess what? Ninjutsu is not synonymous with taijutsu and/or bukiwaza.:asian:


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## Cryozombie (May 4, 2005)

Not to go off topic but Yojimbo and Sanjuro were two of my all time favorite Samurai flicks, and Id kill for one of those awesome Japanese Toshiro Mifune Yojimbo dolls. I can't spend 200 bucks on one tho.


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## Shogun (May 4, 2005)

Although I only have about 2 years into BBT, I have about 4 into Jinja Shinto and can identify the shinto in taijutsu. it is definelty NOT Buddhist based. 

Jinja Shinto


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## Kizaru (May 5, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Although I only have about 2 years into BBT, I have about 4 into Jinja Shinto and can identify the shinto in taijutsu. it is definelty NOT Buddhist based.


Okay, I'll agree with you a little bit on that point, but why do we have kata names like &#8221;&#22040;&#31354;&#8221; (koku) and &#8221;&#24382;&#25351;&#8221; (danshi) in _Gyokko ryu_?

Why do we have a fist formation refered to as &#8221;&#19981;&#21205;&#25331;&#8221; (fudoken)?

Where does the &#8221;&#27874;&#32645;&#23494;&#22810;&#8221; (haramitsu/ta; a.ka. _"paramita_" in sanskrit) come from in &#8221;&#35422;&#35641; &#27874;&#32645;&#23494;&#22810; &#22823;&#20809;&#22937;&#8221; (Shikin Haramitsu Daikomyou) ?


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## Don Roley (May 5, 2005)

Bujinkan arts are based on Shinto _and_ Buddhism. Japanese culture is as well. I think shogun looked at the various Shinto elements in the art (and there are many) and just reacted to the idea that somehow Buddhism was the sole reason for the art being created as Jim seems to be trying to say.

And on that note, Jim- what you wrote is really pretty, but where are the facts and the detailed explinations?

Here is the problem that you may soon be running into. When you give sources, exact quotes and things like that then we can go and check them and see if they are vaild or have been taken out of context, etc. When you do not give things like that, _as you are doing_, then we have to really look at the person making the statements to see if they are knowledgable enough to state things without any other sources to back them up. I see that happening to you in the near future and speaking as a moderator it gets kind of like a pool full of pirannas around here. I do not like it when that happens and the best way I can see to avoid that would be for you to get more specific and start pointing people to exact quotes and sources for them to scream about instead of you.

In other words, pass the buck.


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## Connovar (May 5, 2005)

My understanding is that Steve Hayes is priest of the Tendai sect of Buddhism. Perhaps it is this background which makes him tend to give more of a religious slant to ninpo origins.


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## Gina (May 5, 2005)

Lets put things into perspective a bit.
Tradition has it that the ancestors of the people we would latter call the ninja were once the rulers, generals, priest etc of Japan. Unfortunately these people were defeated in battle by Heike troops in the 10/11th century. In reality this is probably little different to how England once controlled by the Saxons were defeated by the Normans, or previous to that how the Romano British were defeated by the Anglo-Saxon. 

So is it not unlikely that the people of Japan, once defeated took refuge in the mountains of Japan, namely the Joshinetsu plateu, where Iga and Koga area are to be found. 

Now its also likely that the ancestors of the ninja did study some form of what we today would call religion. what exactly they studied however would probably be hard to define, just like how its hard to understand Christianity a thousand years ago. But it has been suggested that these people practiced a mix of Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto and traditional folk belief. 
Lets face it living in the mountains of Iga, these people must have come into contact with various mystics, generals, tacticians, healers etc that either lived there. or were fleeing their country and hence adopted that knowledge, spiritual or otherwise to help them deal with the oppresive times they lived in.

History however also shows us that when ever there are religions in opposition there is often aggresion. Even when one of those religions does not threaten the mainstream religion of the time. Hitler managed to murder 6 million people, many of them Jewish, and there is of course at the moment a war going on to destroy anything that is not Muslim also known as Jihad (Holy War). Thankfully only perpetrated by a few individuals. Not to mention Ireland, The Spanish Inquisition and the witch hunts of Europe.

Of course I also realise that behind these religious wars, religion is often only used as an excuse, as there are often other hidden objectives, but none the less people who have different views, we rarely try to understand. Instead we tend to target them for reprisal. whether you call it homophobia, racism,  sexism, or anti Stephen Hayesism.

It is therefore highly likely that the ancestors of the ninja were attacked by the forces in power. In fact did'nt Oda Nobunaga attempt to wipe out the area of Iga?

To defend themselves these people probably resorted to using the skills they had been taught over the many hundreds of years that they had been oppressed, hence ninjutsu. However I think its wrong to think that Ninjutsu suddenly came into being, it evolved over hundreds of years. Its really only today that we think of it as an art. Stephen Hayes once stated that if you asked a ninja what it was he did he would probably say 'No Name, No art' but of course in Japanese. well old Japanese.

Again history is full of peoples that were threatened by the ruling class and although outnumbered and technologically inferior fought back and sometimes won. When  the the Vikings attacked England, there were groups led by Hereward the Wake striking from the swamp lands of the fens. Similarly we also have legends of outlaws such as Robin Hood. And of course victories against the armed settlers of America by what they refered to as primitive savages weilding little more than knives and tomahawks. I won't even mention Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.and of course stories of how American frontiers men in the American war of Independence kicked our butts. Oh i'm English by the way. 

Yes England sent ship loads of trained soldiers to the Americas, and we were defeated by men who's skills were learnt from, hunting, and shooting game and being able to conceal themselves and live off the land. Not very unlike the Ninja.

Its likely that the ancestors of the ninja were studying some kind of religion first before they had to resort to physical methods of defence, rather than the other way round. After all Abraham Maslow states that when one has peace, and time on your hands one can concentrate on the higher things in life such as art, religion etc. It is highly unlikely however that once at war, one has the time for these higher ideals, as one is simply trying to survive.


As for the slight on Stephen Hayes not getting the history correct, Well I disagree. History by its very nature is open to interpretation. Also I think one has to remember that when Stephen wrote those books Ninjutsu was very little known and I believe he was trying to write a book to promote an art that all people could understand. Yes I agree that maybe not all points of history may not be in there, but after all we are all fanatics on the subject and could probably pick any history of the Japanese martial arts apart. Remember Stephen Hayes was not writing a history book, he was writing an introduction to the art that was unknown in the western world. I often pick up books on archaeology written for beginners in the subject, and I can easily question,  why  the author didn't include this or that. But as a person with a degree in archaeology I have to appreciate that its for beginners and when Stephen Hayes wrote those books we were all beginners, maybe we all still are.

Bear in mind there are also publishers constraints, constant reedits at the editors request and possibly also constraints from Hombu itself about what could be included in those early books. In fact in the early days Hatsumi Sensei restricted his students from using the names of techniques to the general public. Hence technique names like Koku, Renyo etc were kept secret and could not be published, yet at the same time Hatsumi sensei was bringing out videos with kata mentioned like Ten, Omai etc, and after 20 years in this art i still don't know where they come from. 

I actually believe that in the early days Hatsumi Sensei was trying to keep this art restrictive, and I believe it still continues. 
I actually think that Stephen Hayes did exactly what he set out to do. Present a positive image of this art. Not one about assasination, and those other negative things that has been associated to the art by much less responsible authors, We should also remember that without what Stephen Hayes wrote in those early days we might all still be practicing Kung Fu or something. In fact only just last night I had two member who came to my Dojo because they became fascinated by the art through the books by Stephen hayes.

Finally, Jim you question why we contiinue to study ninjutsu when we live in such peaceful times. Well simply that peace can be shattered. here in Europe over the last ten years we have seen countries like Albania, Croatia, Serbia, and others be plunged into war, with people starving on the street, people being raped, murdered and made homeless. Wouldn't Ninjutsu be a great skill to have if that happened in your country. And if you think that it can't  happen to you, just remember 911. An attack on the most powerful country in the world by aq handful of terrorists. That attack could have quite easily have been on a nuclear power station, which could have seen whole states devastated to be plunged into environment when you really need these skills.


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## Connovar (May 5, 2005)

Please dont take my note on Steve Hayes as being negative. I had trained for many years with Steve and Rumiko and I think highly of them. In fact even though I am not Buddhist I like the spiritual slant they bring to their training.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 5, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> Lets put things into perspective a bit.
> Tradition has it that the ancestors of the people we would latter call the ninja were once the rulers, generals, priest etc of Japan. Unfortunately these people were defeated in battle by Heike troops in the 10/11th century.


Yeah, and Islam is to blame for all of the world's terrorist activities. 
(It's not that simple)



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> Lets face it living in the mountains of Iga, these people must have come into contact with various mystics, generals, tacticians, healers etc that either lived there. or were fleeing their country and hence adopted that knowledge, spiritual or otherwise to help them deal with the oppresive times they lived in.


Oppressive how?



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> History however also shows us that when ever there are religions in opposition there is often aggresion.


Opposition against what?



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> It is therefore highly likely that the ancestors of the ninja were attacked by the forces in power. In fact did'nt Oda Nobunaga attempt to wipe out the area of Iga?


Yes, but he hardly did so out of the will to subjugate people of a different religious standpoint.



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> However I think its wrong to think that Ninjutsu suddenly came into being, it evolved over hundreds of years. Its really only today that we think of it as an art. Stephen Hayes once stated that if you asked a ninja what it was he did he would probably say 'No Name, No art' but of course in Japanese. well old Japanese.


And if you ask Hatsumi sensei if you can be the next Soke, he might say yes...he has done so in the past.



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> Again history is full of peoples that were threatened by the ruling class and although outnumbered and technologically inferior fought back and sometimes won. When the the Vikings attacked England, there were groups led by Hereward the Wake striking from the swamp lands of the fens. Similarly we also have legends of outlaws such as Robin Hood. And of course victories against the armed settlers of America by what they refered to as primitive savages weilding little more than knives and tomahawks. I won't even mention Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.and of course stories of how American frontiers men in the American war of Independence kicked our butts. Oh i'm English by the way.


That's all fine and dandy. But what if we were to stick to the topic at hand, namely Japanese medieval history?



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> Its likely that the ancestors of the ninja were studying some kind of religion first before they had to resort to physical methods of defence, rather than the other way round.


And exactly why is that?



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> It is highly unlikely however that once at war, one has the time for these higher ideals, as one is simply trying to survive.


Exactly, because if war precedes peace, then martial arts have to be studied before literary and spiritual arts, right?



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> As for the slight on Stephen Hayes not getting the history correct, Well I disagree. History by its very nature is open to interpretation. Also I think one has to remember that when Stephen wrote those books Ninjutsu was very little known and I believe he was trying to write a book to promote an art that all people could understand.


And at the same time he states that the history of the nine ryuha is not meant for the masses...
And where are the literary sources that may be referenced in support of Hayes's theories?



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> Bear in mind there are also publishers constraints, constant reedits at the editors request and possibly also constraints from Hombu itself about what could be included in those early books.


So you're saying that it's dangerous to let the public in on the fact that the historical ninja were more often than not specialized bushi rather than oppressed freedom fighters...?



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> Finally, Jim you question why we contiinue to study ninjutsu when we live in such peaceful times.


We don't. We practice budo taijutsu/ninpo taijutsu.



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> Wouldn't Ninjutsu be a great skill to have if that happened in your country. And if you think that it can't happen to you, just remember 911. An attack on the most powerful country in the world by aq handful of terrorists. That attack could have quite easily have been on a nuclear power station, which could have seen whole states devastated to be plunged into environment when you really need these skills.


Only thing is, the methods of information gathering, espionage, disguise and impersonation etc. etc. were adapted to the world of medieval Japan. As such, Hatsumi sensei doesn't teach very much ninjutsu but focuses on taijutsu instead.


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## Don Roley (May 5, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> Lets put things into perspective a bit.
> Tradition has it that the ancestors of the people we would latter call the ninja were once the rulers, generals, priest etc of Japan.



Uh, no. If you wish to press the point, please give exact quotes and sources please.



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> To defend themselves these people probably resorted to using the skills they had been taught over the many hundreds of years that they had been oppressed, hence ninjutsu.



Ok, stop right there. This is the core fo the problem. Give some exact quotes and sources for your belief that the ninja were an oppressed group. The idea that the ninja had to develop ninjutsu in order to survive oppression is a myth that I am trying to drive a stake through the heart of. Let us start with you trying to come up with some source for the idea that because of religious differences the ninja were oppressed. Again, _exact quotes, cites and sources._ Please no more of this wild speculation and trying to draw parralels between Japan and another convinient country.


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## ninjaJim (May 5, 2005)

The only sources I can quote are Steves books and the book on Shingon mentioned earlier. It was really the book on Shingon that allowed me to see more things more clearly. Check it out and you'll be amazed. The issues of how Buddhism is taught is paralell to how we are taught. I'm mainly talking about the issue of some getting the entire candy store and others getting only a few gumdrops. This aspect was the real thrust and intent of the post.

As far as religous influences go and how it applies what modern training should be.... Look at Takamatsu and Hatsumi's makeup. They were/are not irrational technicians but instead reflect the finest elements of the art. The most important elements include certain technical but mostly spiritual applications of the art. The soke is who we should emulate and incorporate but notice I did not say duplicate. Each person and school has their own "brand" of enlightenment. (There is only one truth though)

Basically what I said in the first message without painting the whole picture was that the ninja "began" when religeon influenced them. The  type of ideallic person that we should strive to be was that group of technicians at their finest hour. Sure, the art was there before but it was simply a set of skills for self serving gain.

Don I submit to you deductive reasoning and observation as my reference. History has reference's to many aspects of what we study but in the end it is up to us to determine the truth. In religeon it is possible to be so overinformed that we find ourselves deceived or even worse, lost. In all things we must find a balance.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 5, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> The only sources I can quote are Steves books and the book on Shingon mentioned earlier.


Well, there you have it. Do some research for yourself.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> It was really the book on Shingon that allowed me to see more things more clearly.


Yeah, we can tell. As opposed to, by the way...?



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> The most important elements include certain technical but mostly spiritual applications of the art.


There is nothing but hard training to it!!! Even Hayes himself wrote that in his book "Lore of the Shinobi Warrior".



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> The soke is who we should emulate and incorporate but notice I did not say duplicate. Each person and school has their own "brand" of enlightenment. (There is only one truth though)


That's true, but truth and reality are not necessarily the same thing.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> Basically what I said in the first message without painting the whole picture was that the ninja "began" when religeon influenced them.


Proof, please?


----------



## heretic888 (May 5, 2005)

ninjaJim,

The Buddhist "magic" that you are referring to is _mikkyo_. Next to the Zen sects, the Tendai-shu and Shingon-shu were among the most popular Buddhist schools for the _bushi_ class. When in Japanese history were the _mikkyo_ schools actively persecuted, discriminated, or oppressed?? And, by whom??

To my knowledge, the only religious groups that were openly attacked in Japan were the Jodo-shin-shu and Christianity. I could tell you precise dates and details concerning their respective oppressions --- such as Oda Nobunaga's campaigns against the Ikko-Ikki during the latter half of the 16th century, or the Tokugawa's conflicts with the Christian rebels of the 17th century. Can the same be said of the _mikkyo_ sects??

But, even then, the Jodo-shin-shu and Christianity were only persecuted because they became a tool for political rebellion and defiance. The rulers at the time didn't care one way or the other about their philosophical beliefs, only their political relationship toward the status quo.

Sorry, man, but I just don't see it.

Additionally, it is my understanding that Oda Nobunaga's reason for invading Iga was to "save face" in lieu of his son Nobuo's misadventures and subsequent failures. He didn't actually seem all that interested in Iga until Nobuo got involved (without his father's permission).

Laterz.  :asian:


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## Mickey Mullins (May 5, 2005)

Hello,

You wrote:


> _Basically what I said in the first message without painting the whole picture was that the ninja "began" when religeon influenced them._


And once again this point is moot,ninjutsu began with the very first living organisms(not only humans).Hatsumi Sensei has stated numerous times that this concept is NOT only Japanese,religion based,or able to be labled at all- therefore I believe it is the core that drives everything that lives(why do you think the innumerous referances to things such as grass,the sun,animals,etc.).It is the very essence of instinct/survival.Unless of course we can't get past "the box" of labels and titles.

How many times have you heard referances made to the mother tiger,the changing seasons,or whatever?It is only man that is influenced by things such as religion,titles,and linear thinking.Food for thought.Natural justice is natures justice.Toda Sensei wrote that man should not sway to personal desires,I believe he meant the heart too.Therefore ninjutsu/ninpo is very much deeper than mere men and their wants and desires.Shaker of salt.

Fire away!
Mickey Mullins


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## ninjaJim (May 5, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *ninjaJim*
_Basically what I said in the first message without painting the whole picture was that the ninja "began" when religeon influenced them._

Proof, please?

Last time I'll say it. After this what's the point? Ninja, as we should emulate MUST have a spiritual component. Yes, there were thugs, mercenaries, hustlers, tacticians, technicians and others who may have been described as ninja but I am speaking of an idyllic aspiriation and when that type of person came into being. I freely admit my wording was wrong and misleading but it was still the truth in this regard. 

What you probably wanted was a highly detailed doctrinal dissertation, well referenced non-thought requiring infomercial about the study of traditional ninjutsu. The question was "What is Traditional Ninjutsu"? The answer I gave was more fitted to the question what should the study of traditional ninjutsu be. 

Sure, you can study under someone who has raw data on history, techniques and other specifics. What this is known as is the partial experience. A mere study which is interesting but severely lacking.

Each person's path is right and appropriate for them because it is what they have worked for; the sum of their efforts. In this repect one cannot blame another for where they are. You can accept them for where they are and hopefully help them to realize a better existence. 

*My question to you is if you think that it's OK to not include the religous aspect of the training?* To me it would be OK to train up to a point but it would be a shame not to. Anything less than the full immersion provides some gain but denies an entire world of experiences. It's kind of like getting married vs dating. The dating experience is very shallow and self serving for the most part. Marriage, when practiced right, is an evolution and redifining of one's self. It's rewards are different and far greater from the other path .


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 5, 2005)

Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir never married, and they did good for themselves. Gee, I wonder who would be the most suitable person to symbolize Nelson Algren in this analogy...?


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## Shinkengata (May 5, 2005)

*Rules of Engagement*

1: Argue not with Roley if you fear ownage. With Roley, ownage is imminent.

2: Proof of claims must be present to prevent ownage.

3: Study of Tew-Ryu, Dux-Ryu, or other "American Ninjitsu" automatically qualifies you for immediate ownage in the event of verbal sparring over Historical facts.

4: Make damn sure your kamae is correct before showing it to the world while acting as an authority on Ninja.

Hope that helps.:ultracool


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## clfsean (May 5, 2005)

That's not rules of engagement... that's common sense!


Great breakdown of things!!!


----------



## Shinkengata (May 5, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> That's not rules of engagement... that's common sense!


Right you are, my good man.:asian:


----------



## ninjaJim (May 5, 2005)

Here's a few pages from the Shingon book I had mentioned.

The "WARbuddies" thing is my hobby website. Page is around 180k

http://warbuddies.homestead.com/Shingon.html


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## Don Roley (May 6, 2005)

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> *Rules of Engagement*
> 
> 1: Argue not with Roley if you fear ownage. With Roley, ownage is imminent.
> 
> ...



Compassion is not a Roley word!!!!!!

Ok, I have real problems with the way those trying to make the case for Buddhist opression being the cause for the birth of ninjutsu. Just the comments and attitudes the proponents are taking strikes me as fundementially wrong. Gina spends more time talking about Vikings than giving even one fact that relates to Japan. And she throws around a lot of terms like "must have", "likely", "Probably" and "History however also shows us that..." Is it relaly too much to ask for specific facts instead of theories made up by people who can't even read the language? Jim, why MUST we have a spiritual component? Says who? Why must the patterns that we see in other cultures have anything to do with Japan? Maybe they do sometimes, but why has differnet cultrues and nations turned out so differnet if we beleive that one size fits all and what happened to Christianity in Europe must be the same as Buddhism in Japan? Etc, etc, etc.

Let us look at the one peice of information that Jim was willing to post. Heretic888 did a good job pointing out that various groups fought one another *not* over the fact that they were a different religion, but because of very seccular matters. Here is what he said,



> But, even then, the Jodo-shin-shu and Christianity were only persecuted because they became a tool for political rebellion and defiance. The rulers at the time didn't care one way or the other about their philosophical beliefs, only their political relationship toward the status quo.



If you take a look at the pages you scanned, they back up what he said and not your idea that the groups at Koya and Hiezan were persecuted because of what they believed. There is not one reference to the Buddhist magic that you started talking about in your first post. Top this up with the fact that the development of ninjutsu was prior to the timeline in your source.

But starting to posts facts like that is a good first step. I can point out how they are not what you think they are and not have to beat you guys over the head for making endless speculations without an ounce of reality to back it up.


----------



## Floating Egg (May 6, 2005)




----------



## Shogun (May 6, 2005)

> Bujinkan arts are based on Shinto _and_ Buddhism. Japanese culture is as well. I think shogun looked at the various Shinto elements in the art (and there are many) and just reacted to the idea that somehow Buddhism was the sole reason for the art being created as Jim seems to be trying to say.


thanks don.
I did phrase that wrong. I meant to say it is not strictly buddhist. obviously, buddhism has been in Japan for several hundred years so there will be that too. It just is not based 100% on buddhism which was the initial arguement. sorry if it caused confusion.

KE


----------



## Shinkengata (May 6, 2005)

I read somewhere(so you know if im wrong, it's not my fault. lol) that Takamatsu Sensei's religious practices were a mix of Shinto and Mikkyo. Not that it really matters, just figured it kinda ties into this discussion.


----------



## Kizaru (May 6, 2005)

1.


			
				Shinkengata said:
			
		

> religious practices were a mix of Shinto and Mikkyo. Not that it really matters, just figured it kinda ties into this discussion.


"Mikkyo" isn't a religion unto itself; it's a group of teachings that are part of Tendai sect and Shingon sect Buddhism.

In Japan, prior to 1872 Buddhism and Shinto were often combined, and in some cases, this was refered to as "Shugen" (more information here: http://members.shaw.ca/shugendo/intro.html).



			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> When in Japanese history were the _mikkyo_ schools actively persecuted, discriminated, or oppressed?? And, by whom??


In 1872, the Meiji Emporer proclaimed himself a living god and as the head of Shinto, separated Buddhism and Shinto in Japan by an imperial proclamation. (more info here: http://www.geocities.com/fascin8or/reiki_meiji.html ). From then on, all Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines were to be separate, and the practice of Shugendo was prohibited, with the exception of one temple complex in Yamagata prefecture, Dewa Sanzan. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only time in Japanese history when Buddhism/Shugendo was "persecuted". But this was only from 1872 until about 1945. During that time, Shugendo was still practiced outside of Dewa Sanzan, but in secret.

2.
I beleive that some of the confusion here may stem from the fact that yamabushi (aka shugenja; the people who practice shugendo) were allowed to move freely between the different fiefdoms in old Japan, while other people needed special passes. Ninja would often disguise themselves as yamabushi in order to be able to move through these different fiefdoms. 

Furthermore, lots of Japanese martial arts use Buddhist/Shinto/Shugendo symbolism to communicate aspects of their art that are not easily summed up. This _does NOT_ mean that one needs to become a Buddhist, a shugenja or a practitioner of Shinto in order to understand these concepts or to have "a full expereince". One _DOES_ need to have a competent teacher who can explain and demonstrate the significance of these symbols and what they mean in that particular martial art. If Syrian Orthodox Christianity had been the prevelent religion in Japan when these arts were being written down, we may have had references to Archangel Michael instead of Fudo myo or St. George "slaying the Dragon" instead of "becoming zero", but the ideas that the symbols represent would have been the same.

3.


			
				ninjajim said:
			
		

> Sure, you can study under someone who has raw data on history, techniques and other specifics...A mere study which is interesting but severely lacking.


Apart from the "techniques and other specifics" what is being transmitted? The spirit of the art? Without a body of techniques to start from, all that would be transmitted would be the spirit...and what's a spirit without a body? *A ghost...in otherwords "dead".*
I find that some people are drawn to Asian martial arts because of the stereotype we have in the West of it's connection to spirituality. In my humble opinion, it is not the person who has a deep understanding of his art's history, techniques and "other specifics" who is "severely lacking", but the person who goes looking for spiritual guidance in an Asian martial arts school that is. I believe someone much wiser than myself once said, "If you want to get stronger, lift weights and exercise. If you want to be healthier, eat more vegetables. If you want to be more spiritual, study religion...but if you're a fool, study Budo."


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 6, 2005)

"We will not cease from mental flight, nor shall our swords rest in our hands, 'till we have built Jerusalem in Budo's green and pleasant lands."


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## Shogun (May 6, 2005)

> Jim, why MUST we have a spiritual component? Says who? Why must the patterns that we see in other cultures have anything to do with Japan? Maybe they do sometimes, but why has differnet cultrues and nations turned out so differnet if we beleive that one size fits all and what happened to Christianity in Europe must be the same as Buddhism in Japan? Etc, etc, etc.


 Understanding of native Culture? you should probably have that....
Religion? not neccesary.
In fact, the truth couldnt be further from that. If those saying religion must exist within something think they are right, they know very little to nothing. Shinto in particular had no beginning, no "outline", and no specific "guide" as to what a person is to do in life. why would it HAVE to be in Ninjutsu?


Ah, heck yes, I just got my Second degree MT black belt!!


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## Don Roley (May 6, 2005)

Guys,
We have two moderators devoted solely to the traditional section in addition to all the folks above Kreth and me in the chain of command. I will not be moderating this thread (aside from splitting it off at the beggining because it went off course to the original thread) but others like Kreth will.

So I am not speaking as a moderator here. Having said that, the photos of the cat and such make me giggle, but let us try to debate this without making fun of anyone or making them feel silly.

Some would say that's *my* job.  :uhohh:


----------



## Shogun (May 6, 2005)

~Nods in agreement~


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## Floating Egg (May 7, 2005)

I was just looking for an excuse to post that picture.


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## Shinkengata (May 7, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> I was just looking for an excuse to post that picture.


And i was looking for an excuse to post the word "ownage". hehe..


----------



## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

Here's an example of Buddhist magic influencing some rulers in China. There are a few mentions of this happening in Japan but I'd have to scan several pages. This book should really be regarded as required reading anyway. It certainly helped me understand a lot of things that were mentioned in passing.

http://www.warbuddies.homestead.com/Shingon2.html

As I admitted ninjustsu began long before religion influenced it. The practitioners we should strive to be should be like those of the particular point in history were. (See my very first post) The ninja of this point in time were the finest examples in history. Before the spiritual aspect ninja were self serving technicians and not the great beings they were to become later. 

The argument then becomes just what is/was a ninja?? To me the true term "ninja" began when they put their lives on the line for their beliefs and not just their families etc.

Jim

BTW... Ownage is not complete until "Roldog" owns me in Halo2!!! (Unlikely)


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## Don Roley (May 7, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> The practitioners we should strive to be should be like those of the particular point in history were.



Oh really???

Has Hatsumi said this?

And your scanned pages about esoteric stuff influencing rulers, can you tell me exactly how this has to do with the creation of the ninja? More specifically, you wrote in your first post;



> The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic.



Now, no one has debated that esoteric Buddhism was considered magic by some. But how does what you scanned have to do with how the leaders needed to control who possesed this magic? And thus the creation of the ninja. Or the idea that the ninja were oppressed religious minority that needed ninjutsu to survive?


----------



## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

Hatsumi doesn't seem to be a simple minded holder of ancient technical means. I've never met him but have met people who have. On every account there was no doubt that he was the real thing and then some.

 Hatsumi possesses what the ninja possessed at their finest hour and it is on display for all to see IF they can see it. He loves and esteems what he has because it is more than a mere collection of techniques and history. It would have been easier for him to just learn the physical aspect of the art but Takamatsu knew that he was "the one". 

Honestly, you'd have to read the book to see what I'm getting at. I feel bad enough scanning copyrighted material as it is. 


Reiterating what has already been said a few times...



Ninja and their art existed before religious influences. Ninja that were truly great beings existed in a time just before they defended their faith. One would never put their life at risk for religion unless they believed in it.



The question is what should we choose to emulate? Should we try to emulate Hatsumi or should try to pick up a few good pointers from a lesser person? Everyone is free to do what they like but hopefully they will aspire to be the best they can be.  

Oh yeah. The latest avitar is of me when I was six months into training. (18 yrs old/18 yrs ago) Better ichimonji photo here. 

Show me a quote where Hatsumi says that a ninja is/was only a simple technician.

Jim 

aka "rubberman"  (Dojo term applied to the most flexible person in the school.)


----------



## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Understanding of native Culture? you should probably have that....
> Religion? not neccesary.
> In fact, the truth couldnt be further from that. If those saying religion must exist within something think they are right, they know very little to nothing. Shinto in particular had no beginning, no "outline", and no specific "guide" as to what a person is to do in life. why would it HAVE to be in Ninjutsu?
> 
> ...


Just let me know when your fifth dan test is like Hatsumi's.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 7, 2005)

1. Jim, you are speaking with people who have met Hatsumi sensei in person and had conversations with him.

2. Jim, you're still not being kind to your knee.

3. Jim, your rank is in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, not Togakure ryu ninjutsu.

4. Jim, if you check out some of the more reliable sources as opposed to questionable 80's books by Stephen Hayes, you'll find that the old theories that the ninja were a secret society of oppressed outcasts can safely be said to be pure BS, and that the more historically accurate description is that of regular bushi who had specialized in what was then seen as unconventional methods of warfare. 

5. This has been a lousy day.

www.kabuto.nu/ninjitsu


----------



## Shogun (May 7, 2005)

a really easy (albeit slightly different) comparision to get off the "poor farmer ninja" kick is to think of them as today's special forces or even CIA. warriors with cool gadgets.

even Ewok is a closer justification.




> Just let me know when your fifth dan test is like Hatsumi's.


Pedro sauer's blue belt test (if you pass) concludes with a cross choke and hip toss by everyone in the school. BTW, he has 250 full time students.


----------



## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> 1. Jim, you are speaking with people who have met Hatsumi sensei in person and had conversations with him.
> 
> 2. Jim, you're still not being kind to your knee.
> 
> ...


5. Why has this been a lousy day?

4. I'm not just talking about what ninja were I'm talking about what they are. With Hatsumi being used as a ruler it would seem that the spiritual ninja is the standard. The "ideal" ninja as something to aspire to be. Anyone can just learn techniques, methods and skills but to wear the name ninja is more than that.

You could also say that anyone who possessed the non spiritual skills they had could be one BUT we are talking about ideals. 

You are right! The people called ninja were just as you say they were. The difference is what one group calls a ninja today is not the same as others. As I said before the statement was a synopsis. My wording was not quite right and someone took me literally and ran with it. This was not the intent of the post. The thing I really wanted to discuss was today's training.

3. Just broke out the old rank certificate. It says Ninpo Taijutsu. I used Togakure as something to show that I was from a different school and a different time. The current training is definitely not like the "old days". When I was training in the old days (1989) there was evidence that we were in either the second or third version of this type of training. The evidence consisted of students from earlier years. Yes I was Bujinkan but there was no "Budo" at that time hence the use of Togakure. Sorry.

2. Ah! In that day knee directly over toe was the proper posture. This was even stated in one of the Shadows of Iga monthlys. I was told that my Taijutsu was impeccable. Understand I'm not bragging but merely stating that things are different.

1. My instructor had not only talked to him he lent himself for use as a temporary ragdoll. His pinkie finger was actually bent from an over the head throw which involved it as the grasping point. Bent! Really, I think he was joking about the bent part but one of our fellow students was there and saw the throw happen. (Comparing left and right did show that it was bent) His finger wasn't feeling right after the incident.

Six months before I left training Mark had made his first pilgrimage to Japan which included another visit with Hatsumi. Prior to studying Ninjutsu Mark was a student of many arts. Suffice to say he'd own just about any block he walked on. People talk about respecting ones teacher, well he definitely deserved it.


----------



## Kizaru (May 7, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> 3. Just broke out the old rank certificate. It says Ninpo Taijutsu. I used Togakure as something to show that I was from a different school ...


Please click on this link, and go to the section of the FAQ marked "*Who is authorized to teach?". *http://www.jigokudojo.com/

This shows an official certification from Hatsumi sensei. The license that you have displayed only says "Jimu Dotei" (your name I guess) in _katakana_ and "_kyou_" (license) in _kanji_. While it may say "Ninpo Taijutsu Nanakyu..." in Roman letters, it nowhere has the name(s) of the ryu, the date, or your rank in Japanese. More importantly, it has neither the Bujinkan seal *NOR *Hatsumi soke's name and official seal.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> 4. I'm not just talking about what ninja were I'm talking about what they are....The "ideal" ninja as something to aspire to be....to wear the name ninja is more than that....


From reading that, some here may be under the impression that you want to be a "ninja". This may be a bit unsettling to some as there are neither "samurai" nor "ninja" in today's society. I often wonder if 300 years from now, people will practice techniques from the US Army's infantry manual and live by the "Ranger Creed" and want to call themselves "Airborne Rangers" having never been in a US Army unit or fallen from a C-130.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> Six months before I left training Mark had made his first pilgrimage to Japan which included time with Hatsumi.....


So from that statement, I suppose we can assume that you are no longer training, correct?


----------



## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

C'mon Don I'm speaking in general terms. Using the words "When I grow up I wanna be a ninja" is kid stuff.
Please don't try to hang me for use of words. Ideas yes, exact words in this environment no. 

I'll be honest. The reason I started posting is because it troubles me that ninjutsu training will soon be posted next to spinning in your local newspaper. (You know what I'm talking about) Even worse, I see that everyone is walking around with impressive titles which are clearly manufactured. I thought that the politics of the art would have gone away but instead they got worse. Now it's ruined for everyone. (I'm talking about the chance to do the esoteric aspect) Travelling to Japan may not even guarantee the training you're entitled to. I totally respect anyone who makes the journey but even that path has been beaten down.

And you wonder why I left.


----------



## Kizaru (May 7, 2005)

Statement #1


			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> After three and a half years I was 6th kyu. This was when I left, after having fully realized the politics, business and exoteric/esoteric nature of the art purported to be Ninjutsu.


Statement #2


			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> Oh yeah. The latest avitar is of me when I was six months into training. (18 yrs old/18 yrs ago) ....


Statement #3


			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> I'm 36 now and have had a lot of time to retrospectively study issues I could barely grasp when I was 19.


Jim, according to your three statements above, I think we can understand that 

1. You began training at age 18.
2. After 3 1/2 years of training, you stopped training at age 21 or 22. (18 + 3.5 = 21.5) 
3. You are now 36 years old. You stopped training at age 21 or 22, so you've been away from training for about 15 or 16 years. (36 - 21 = 15)

With that short amount of experience and with such a long hiatus from training, some people here on this board may have a difficult time accepting your assertions as believable, and may question your motives for expressing your opinions here. In the past 15 or 16 years, alot of people have visited Japan to train, and some of us have actually moved here, learned the language and started families. While we all commend your enthusiasm, it may be in your best interest to return to training at a qualified school, or at least check some of your facts more thoroughly before vaunting your theories in a public forum.


----------



## Cryozombie (May 7, 2005)

How come you guys who moved there wont mail me a nice japanese girl?

 Thanks a lot.

 Jim... You appear to have inadvertantly called Kizaru "Don"... Kizaru and Don are two different people.  Dont get confused cuz they are both bustin' your chops from across the water...


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## Cryozombie (May 7, 2005)

And BTW Ninjajim...

 Don't take it too hard, its still just a matter after all this time of struggling with legitimacy in the face of Fakirs and Frauds like Kim, Dux, Tew, 20 year old American Ninja Soke Masters, Etc etc etc...

 The guys who are there in the "thick of it" so to speak, take that legitimacy very seriously... and it's difficult to blame them.


----------



## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

I never meant to get in a discussion about the origins of ninjutsu. I freely admit that my most recent memory of anything related to the art was the book on Shingon. It did shed a lot of light on things mentioned in passing.

As you are now so was I then. Although I couldn't read Japanese I had a decent vocabulary when it came to the art. At the time, SKH history WAS the source. I'm glad to see that you realized where I'm coming from.

*What I did want to discuss was today's training environment.* I'm greatly troubled by the fact that there is something out there that I'd like to have but probably can't. Even back in "the day" there were a lot of hoops to jump through but now...

At least I can say that what I did do did some good.


----------



## Kizaru (May 7, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> I'll be honest. The reason I started posting is because it troubles me that ninjutsu training will soon be posted next to spinning in your local newspaper. (You know what I'm talking about)


Actually, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see "ninjutsu training" being posted in _my_ local newspaper anytime soon.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> Even worse, I see that everyone is walking around with impressive titles which are clearly manufactured.


That's their own responsibilty. They can do their best to live up to them, stick them in the closet or advertise them all over the place. Personal responsibilty.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> I thought that the politics of the art would have gone away but instead they got worse.


Maybe the "politics" are supposed to be a part of the training environment.
I do recall someone older and wiser than me saying that, "People who study Budo must have an understanding for war, economics and _politics_". 



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> Now it's ruined for everyone.


Is it?



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> (I'm talking about the chance to do the esoteric aspect)


Maybe you should enroll in a temple somewhere or try some yoga classes. You'd probably have a better chance finding what you're looking for there rather than by stirring things up on an internet forum.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> Travelling to Japan may not even guarantee the training you're entitled to.


ENTITLED TO?!?! The world, Japan and the Bujinkan don't owe anyone anything. Personal responsibility.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> And you wonder why I left.


There's an old saying, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way". 
I don't wonder why you left at all.


----------



## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Jim... You appear to have inadvertantly called Kizaru "Don"... Kizaru and Don are two different people. Dont get confused cuz they are both bustin' your chops from across the water...


Sorry man Don & K. Since I saw the "Roley creed" at the bottom I just thought it was the same person using a dif sign in.


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## Kizaru (May 7, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> *I* never meant to get in a discussion about the *origins* of ninjutsu....


So why did *you* name the thread that you started "Buddhist theory of ninja *origin*" ?


----------



## Cryozombie (May 7, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> So why did *you* name the thread that you started "Buddhist theory of ninja *origin*" ?


 Cmon man... we get it.  You won... lets let it go and play nice.

 K?

 And mail me that girl soon please.


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## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Actually, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see "ninjutsu training" being posted in _my_ local newspaper anytime soon.
> 
> That's their own responsibilty. They can do their best to live up to them, stick them in the closet or advertise them all over the place. Personal responsibilty.
> 
> ...


The "newspaper" reference was aimed at certain watered down/commercialized elements of the art. It's good for the world to know of ninjutsu but to know it in the way that the masses do bothers me. I used to see it on a smaller scale but to see it in these proportions bugs me.

I could care less about the frauds. What gets me is that now most seekers have a general idea of where the good stuff is. Trouble is, this makes it harder because the reality is that instructors can only take on so many personal students.

The type of spiritual training one would get from someone under Hatsumi is unique. Although enlightenment either is or isn't realized the type of knowlege found in a particular environment is what I'd like to have.

I'm not making much sense, probably because my eyelids are half open.

Nite:flushed:


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## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> So why did *you* name the thread that you started "Buddhist theory of ninja *origin*" ?


I didn't Don did.

I wanted to talk about what modern training should be. This was an effort to find something decent. Somewhere to go.


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## Shogun (May 7, 2005)

> I see that everyone is walking around with impressive titles which are clearly manufactured.


 I got a fancy title too. 3rd year 10th kyu. master of nothing, student of everything.


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## ninjaJim (May 7, 2005)

You're right. Titles really don't mean that much. It is the individual that counts. What blows my mind is when I see people doing this kind of self deception for twenty years. (I'm talking about a few people I knew to be frauds then and still are)

What's important to me is what someone can pass on and what they are willing to share.

Here's a pic from the good 'ole days... This was a fun place to train. Just thought I'd post a pic of things from a better time.


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## Kizaru (May 8, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Cmon man... we get it. You won... lets let it go and play nice.


While appreciate your concern for the direction the discussion is moving in, my arguement isn't about winning or losing; it's about *integrity*.




			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> And mail me that girl soon please.


I'll hand you the loaded gun, you can put it to your head yourself...
http://www.japancupid.com


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## Shogun (May 8, 2005)

I clicked on the link.................and...................you should have made a disclaimer or something. a dating site? good one.


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## Shinkengata (May 8, 2005)

Jim....bro....pal...


i got news for ya. The training you are receiving is a 3%(maybe) Ninjutsu and 97% Samurai art.  Yes, sure, 3 of the 9 ryuha are Ninpo, but two of them aren't even being taught as far as i am aware and if they are it's almost exclusively in Japan, and what you are studying from the Togakure makes for about, you guessed it, 3% of the entire deal.

Soke stopped calling it Ninjutsu for a reason. None of us are studying pure Ninjutsu, or even most or half Ninjutsu, for that matter. None of us can even be considered Ninja, except for Soke, and im willing to bet that's a label he does not prefer.


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## Shogun (May 8, 2005)

There is  reason the Takamatsu dvd is called the last real ninja. Hatsumi, from what I've heard, doesnt use the term Ninja to refer to himself, but he is rather a copy of the book the Ninja wrote (in a good way).


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## Don Roley (May 8, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> I didn't Don did.



That is correct, I did. And I did it because of the content of your first few posts here and comments like, 



> The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic.



Now, five pages later, you seem willing to admit that Buddhism had little to do with the development of ninjutsu, but you are still making comments like,



> Ninja that were truly great beings existed in a time just before they defended their faith. One would never put their life at risk for religion unless they believed in it.



So you are still trying to say that Buddhism is central to what the ninja was. And without any references to back up what you say you are trying to portray the ninja as defending their faith against outside forces.

Guess, what? Buddhism was/is not more or less important to the ninja that to any other faction in Japanese history.

And now you are kind of getting into an area that could cause some big problems. You seem to be saying that Hatsumi wants us to be Buddhists, or that in order to be good practicioners we need to be Buddhist.

Now if you can't provide proof for that in the form of statements and such from Hatsumi there are a few folks that will probably get mad at you for presuming to say that you know more about how ninjutsu should be practiced than Hatsumi. How can someone like you who only reached sixth kyu and has never met Hatsumi tell some of us how training should be? Do you realize just how arrogent that sounds to us? And the spiritual training you say we can get from Hatsumi- please give exact quotes and cites for any type of spiritual training he wants us to go through.

The most you seem to be able to post is the following,



> Show me a quote where Hatsumi says that a ninja is/was only a simple technician.



Dude, it doesn't work like that. You can't convince us that just because Hatsumi has never said something, that we have to accept your conclusions about what he would have said. You have to show us where Hatsumi has said anything about how he wants us to be good little practicing (insert name of religion or philosophy) in order to be good practicioners.

Listen to Kizaru on this matter. He has probably forgotten more about Buddhism than you will ever learn. I don't want you to get mauled on your first thread at martialtalk, so please start citing references and do not try to tell others how they should be training unless you have a lot more experience than they do. People tend to get testy about that.


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## ninjaJim (May 8, 2005)

Never said that Hatsumi gets up there and barks at people to train in the spiritual aspect or else they will suck.

What I am trying to say is that there is so much more to this art than just the physical techniques. It would be a shame to train and not get the entire package. This is not meant to invalidate someone's training if it should not include these aspects. What I'm saying is if you are going to expend X amount of energy to follow a path then you should go as far as it can take you. Unfortunately with the current influx of trainees things become harder for the person really seeking something more.

That's all


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## BlackCatBonz (May 8, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> Never said that Hatsumi gets up there and barks at people to train in the spiritual aspect or else they will suck.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that there is so much more to this art than just the physical techniques. It would be a shame to train and not get the entire package. This is not meant to invalidate someone's training if it should not include these aspects. What I'm saying is if you are going to expend X amount of energy to follow a path then you should go as far as it can take you. Unfortunately with the current influx of trainees things become harder for the person really seeking something more.
> 
> That's all


please explain what "the entire package" consists of.


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## Blind (May 8, 2005)

Ninjajim, I am taking the "whole package" to mean the spiritual,mystical and mental abilities to be included in training. Are you asking for a guarantee? "if I start now will it be there when I am of the ability to understand"? That doesn't really seem like a sensible attitude, no offence intended, but what is it you want to be capable of? Or are you just interested in religion so you can be happy and or go to heaven?

Also, I don't think that because there are more students it is harder for a "true seeker", you might have to sift through a few more teachers but then there are a lot more good ones around too. Anyway, if you imagine you are "entitled" to the "true" teachings of Hatsumi sensei and want them direct from the horses mouth then get in line, put in the 10-20-30 years or so and maybe if he is still around you might get them. More likely though your views after 10 years training or so will have changed so much that you will not consider these things as being very important, at least not in the way you do now.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 8, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> 4. I'm not just talking about what ninja were I'm talking about what they are. With Hatsumi being used as a ruler it would seem that the spiritual ninja is the standard. The "ideal" ninja as something to aspire to be. Anyone can just learn techniques, methods and skills but to wear the name ninja is more than that.


The word ninja was rarely used in the times when the ones we nowadays refer to as ninja operated. And I'm not sure if you can call Hatsumi sensei a ninja.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> You are right! The people called ninja were just as you say they were. The difference is what one group calls a ninja today is not the same as others.


No, that's right - for instance the Fuma ninja served the Hojo clan mostly, while Satsuma ryu served the Shimazu clan.



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> 3. Just broke out the old rank certificate. It says Ninpo Taijutsu. I used Togakure as something to show that I was from a different school and a different time.


Come again?



			
				ninjaJim said:
			
		

> The current training is definitely not like the "old days".


Would you mind elaborating on that, other than the obvious increased amount of knowledge and quality in the present day?

And yesterday was lousy because I hate indie pop. Reggaeton, dancehall and soca 4 life.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 8, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> What I am trying to say is that there is so much more to this art than just the physical techniques. It would be a shame to train and not get the entire package.


No, the true shame is that there are people who think they can have the entire package without decades of hard training behind them. And is it just me, or do the people who have trained long enough so as to being able to grasp the deeper philosophical meanings (I do absolutely not count myself as one of those) not seem to talk about them all that much, apart from Hatsumi sensei...?


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## Shinkengata (May 8, 2005)

In response to what i've gathered from a few of our friend Jim's previous posts, i'd like to say that i would NOT like to revert back to the training of the 70's and 80's, because this art has evolved, as it is supposed to. It has grown, and to try and preserve the art as it was 20 or 30 years ago would go against the growth of the art and the universal "flow" that Soke talks about so extensively in his writings. With every passing year, the teachings have evolved and grown. Of course there are still basic elements that have remained largely the same. It's like computers. Why go back to the Tandy 2000 when computer technology has evolved and progressed so far today? And if you want to get even deeper into that analogy, speaking of basic elements, there are those that have remained largely the same in computers. They all still have a motherboard, hard drive, monitor, etc.

I understand if you want to go back to the intensity and realism that the Bujinkan trained with in those days. That's perfectly understandable and even encouraged on my part. Just understand that our training has evolved because of the natural flow of time and life, and because of Soke's evolving level of personal training.

If any of my views are incorrect, please inform me of such. I'm just speaking from my own observations and what i think.


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## Mickey Mullins (May 8, 2005)

Ninjajim wrote:


> Ninja that were truly great beings existed in a time just before they defended their faith. One would never put their life at risk for religion unless they believed in it.


A NINJA would never put his/her their families,etc. life at risk over something such as this anyway,no matter what they believed.Momochi Sandayu wrote:
"Ninjutsu is not something which should be used for *personal desires*. It is something which should be used when *no other choice* is available, for the sake of one's country, for the sake of one's lord, or to escape personal danger. If one deliberately uses it for the sake of personal desires, the techniques will indeed fail totally." 

Religion would be classified as a personal desire.Then there is the PRINCIPLE of Shizen gyoon ryusui.Therefore your theory still can't be solid.Following is a "true" ninja's view on religion,maybe this will help with the wall you're struggling against?

Essence of Religion​_by Toshitsugu Takamatsu​_
April 3, 1949 According to all of the sacred books and scrolls from all of the worlds religions, we read that in ancient times there were "natural powers" in existence and that Heaven brought everything into harmony. Since the beginning of time there existed a step-by-step plan of Heaven (Tendo in Japanese). This is referred to in the Christian Bible as "Genesis" in which religion was planted by the seeds of necessity. In sacred Buddhist texts this is the story of how Miroku came down from Heaven after his messenger, the King of Tenrin, prepared his visit by bringing destructive forces under control. This is somewhat similar to the Christian Bible referring to the Golden Age of Paradise being near Heaven. To reside in such a beautiful place one must have a pure and clean heart. As the time of Heaven is different than that of mans it is said that a day in Heaven is worth a thousand years or eternity on earth. It seems within Heaven the passing of Eons is but a second.

Before recorded history in Japan there was a time referred to as the Age of the Gods. This was the beginning of Japans history and is was the time when Emperor Jinmu took the throne. In Japan, the Kami (Gods) were seen as actually meaning the Spirit of God or of the divine. There are many references in the past that show some people were elevated above other humans by being of a pure nature and instilled with the power of the divine. These same individuals became the people who maintained the peace throughout the world. The Gods were not conceived to just protect one nation, and it is irrational to think in this way. In reality, the blessings of the divine are bestowed upon all virtuous people of the world. Anything else falls short of the complexity and depth of Heaven. Other countries with their exalted gods and their hierarchy are the same as the case of "Jehovah". As an example, historically the King of Heaven (Bonten Tentei) there are many difficult, but inherent concepts, intertwined with a variety of underlying principles. This makes it difficult for others to understand when lacking the appropriate background. This refers to the etiquette of Heaven when speaking of Shaka, Koshi, Christ, Mohammed, etc. Only by delving into the roots of the subject can the true points be illuminated and this is true in all things. It is thought in Ancient Japan that all things contain the spirit of God (kami). This means that not only mankind contains this spirit but all living things. In other words, God connects with everything. With this point in mind, it can be seen that any man could possibly be gifted with the light of truth. Man can then be void of dogmatism and egoism and will always strive for freedom. This will lead one on the path of Heaven and the ability to reach a true understanding.

As we can see there is room for everyone from all religious backgrounds. On the true path of Heaven, the true believers are not concerned with "titles" but merely as fellow seekers of truth. There will always be unethical ministers from all religious groups that speak eloquently of the truth and righteousness, but internally are not incorporating this into their lives and setting the example. Any person that is a true believer, regardless of their faith, and who possesses an open spirit with a light surrounding their heart is truly of another world! 


On another note,you wrote:


> Here's a pic from the good 'ole days... This was a fun place to train. Just thought I'd post a pic of things from a better time.


Looks like everyone was having a good time!However how can you call it a better time if you haven't trained in so many years?There are so many resources for training available today that there is no excuse for someone who truly wants to learn,not to.I am quite sure your perspective would change: ).

Mickey Mullins


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## Don Roley (May 8, 2005)

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> In response to what i've gathered from a few of our friend Jim's previous posts, i'd like to say that i would NOT like to revert back to the training of the 70's and 80's, because this art has evolved, as it is supposed to.



I don't know if it really is a case of the art evolving. I think it is more that we are getting more and more correct information from Japan and a tighter bond with Hatsumi. I was around in the early days on the sideline. I remember Hayes selling his own brand of straight bokken because that is what ninja were supposed to have used, people talking about wind stances, people making the weirdest speculations on history based on very little actual facts, articles in Ninja Realm that taught people to shoot using IPSC sport styles, etc.

But of course, some people liked the old days with its different image than we now hear coming out of Japan. The first stories I heard about the ninja were fairly romantic. The more and more I hear of reality, the more realistic (i.e.- less exciting) everything seems to be. It is still exciting to me, it just seems less like a star wars movie in the possibilies that we could fill in the blanks with our imagination.


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## Shinkengata (May 8, 2005)

Thanks for the insight, Don. Much appreciated.

In any case, it's safe to say that the transmission of the art today is better than it was in those days.


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## Mountain Kusa (May 8, 2005)

Oh Man!!

    I have just spent the last 30 or so minutes sorting through all these posts. Those who know me well, know I am a hunter, and as such there are certain rules about camp.

1. Dont discuss religion and politics.

2. When and if, (mostly when ) Alcohol comes out, the guns are locked away.

This seems to be whats happening here.

Okay, now for my point, Jim,........One does not have to train in mykkyo to understand this art. They can have a religion or have no religion and it will make no difference to their understanding of this art. I have it under very good authority from a friend of Dons (LM) "There is no such thing as ninja/mikkyo/ninpo mikkyo." 

Everything that Don has said to you is true. The training is very different than it was even when I started training in '93. If you will let go of trying to weave ninpo and religion together, you will find yourself blossoming into the art. Just focus on taijutsu. 

As for your concern about the politics, it is part of the process like it or not. It keeps you aware. Mostly, respect and focusing on your own training will alleviate any need to become involved in the "bad" side of politics. I would suggest for you to resume training if you are not already, learn, listen, and help others along the way when you can. In the end, it is the good we have left behind that will make all the difference.:asian:


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## Dale Seago (May 9, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I don't know if it really is a case of the art evolving. I think it is more that we are getting more and more correct information from Japan and a tighter bond with Hatsumi. I was around in the early days on the sideline. I remember Hayes selling his own brand of straight bokken because that is what ninja were supposed to have used, people talking about wind stances, people making the weirdest speculations on history based on very little actual facts, articles in Ninja Realm that taught people to shoot using IPSC sport styles, etc.
> 
> But of course, some people liked the old days with its different image than we now hear coming out of Japan. The first stories I heard about the ninja were fairly romantic. The more and more I hear of reality, the more realistic (i.e.- less exciting) everything seems to be. It is still exciting to me, it just seems less like a star wars movie in the possibilies that we could fill in the blanks with our imagination.



I've been training steadily since the end of '83 and go to Japan regularly; and I totally agree with what Don says here.


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## ninjaJim (May 9, 2005)

Blind said:
			
		

> Ninjajim, I am taking the "whole package" to mean the spiritual,mystical and mental abilities to be included in training. Are you asking for a guarantee? "if I start now will it be there when I am of the ability to understand"? That doesn't really seem like a sensible attitude, no offence intended, but what is it you want to be capable of? Or are you just interested in religion so you can be happy and or go to heaven?
> 
> Also, I don't think that because there are more students it is harder for a "true seeker", you might have to sift through a few more teachers but then there are a lot more good ones around too. Anyway, if you imagine you are "entitled" to the "true" teachings of Hatsumi sensei and want them direct from the horses mouth then get in line, put in the 10-20-30 years or so and maybe if he is still around you might get them. More likely though your views after 10 years training or so will have changed so much that you will not consider these things as being very important, at least not in the way you do now.


I agree with you TOTALY. Nobody is entitled to SQUAT except those who are in favor. Years ago it was implied that such training could have been had here in the states. Now that I'm older and able to see things more clearly reality strikes. (I'll leave it at that) Yes, it is best to go straight to the source but even back then things were becoming increasingly restricted.

My views have changed but here is still the kid inside who misses the experiences. It's kind of like getting a hint that the "Matrix" is real and then being tormented about proving it. (A contemporary analogy) 

I can see that you and I think very much alike.

Jim


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## ninjaJim (May 9, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> I've been training steadily since the end of '83 and go to Japan regularly; and I totally agree with what Don says here.


I had similar realizations. Most of us who were sold the image realized later how much it deviated from reality.

Wonder what we'll see in another twenty years hindsight.


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## Shinkengata (May 10, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> Wonder what we'll see in another twenty years hindsight.


I don't know. I dunno if i will still even be in the Bujinkan in 20 years, or even studying martial arts for that matter. I may die in the next 20 years, who knows.

I just try to view all things as readily possible. That way it will be much easier for me to adapt to changes in my life. I made a decision to move 2,200 miles away to California a month ago, and i will move there in less than 2 weeks. Change can happen fast, even if we choose a change like i did.


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## Mountain Kusa (May 10, 2005)

Jim,

      If you will look back through the posts, you will see that everyone here is attempting to lead you to the light and help you to understand. You can be shown the light, but its up to you to walk in it. There is no conspiracy, there is no ultra secret technique which the chosen few are getting and the bottom feeders are not. I have seen way too many people get hung up on supposed secrets and it kills them. In reality, good training over time, with the right people, and a good heart will get you there. But then you will learn that there is no there, and you will have grown enough to be comfortable with that, and just train and enjoy the path. Good luck.


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## Kizaru (May 10, 2005)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> .... You can be shown the light, but its up to you to walk in it. There is no conspiracy, there is no ultra secret technique which the chosen few are getting and the bottom feeders are not. I have seen way too many people get hung up on supposed secrets and it kills them. ... Good luck.


That's probably one of the best posts I've ever read here. I snipped it, but I agree with every line in there.

Gassho.


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## Satt (May 11, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> That's probably one of the best posts I've ever read here. I snipped it, but I agree with every line in there.
> 
> Gassho.


That's why we love em'. He is a pillar of wisdom. :mst:


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## Don Roley (May 11, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> My views have changed but here is still the kid inside who misses the experiences. It's kind of like getting a hint that the "Matrix" is real and then being tormented about proving it. (A contemporary analogy)



I know exactly how you feel. I remember how the art was sold in the early 80s. Hatsumi was as distant, mysterious figure and anyone who could survive the deadly fifth dan test _must_ have been a mystical, complete person.

I have stood in many temples in Japan, and they are cool. I mean, really cool. The stories of remote viewing and such were so prelevent that the mind boggled with the idea of human potential beyond what we thought.

Well, in a few hours I leave for tonights class. Now I know I will not be learning how to see the thoughts of others, or become a warrior monk. But I will learn good skills that I am well satisfied with learning.

But damn, when we knew so little and filled in the gaps with our imagination is was such a good image that we could build up.


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## Shinkengata (May 11, 2005)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Jim,
> 
> If you will look back through the posts, you will see that everyone here is attempting to lead you to the light and help you to understand. You can be shown the light, but its up to you to walk in it. There is no conspiracy, there is no ultra secret technique which the chosen few are getting and the bottom feeders are not. I have seen way too many people get hung up on supposed secrets and it kills them. In reality, good training over time, with the right people, and a good heart will get you there. But then you will learn that there is no there, and you will have grown enough to be comfortable with that, and just train and enjoy the path. Good luck.


And let us not forget to not devote our lives to the teachings, but devote the teachings to our lives.

Don't live to train, train to live. That's the best advice i can offer anyone at this most basic stage in my training.


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## Shogun (May 11, 2005)

Because I started training only threee years ago in Bujinkan, I never was at the point you guys were with all the mysticism and what not. I guess I am lucky in that aspect, though. however, in the beginning I had two misconceptions:
1. all Ninjutsu is the same (ie. tew ryu, duncan ryu, koga ryu, etc)
2. Taijutsu is just tight-kido (aikido, delivered closer to the body)

"I can see clearly now the rain is gone"


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## Don Roley (May 13, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I guess I am lucky in that aspect, though. however, in the beginning I had two misconceptions:
> 1. all Ninjutsu is the same (ie. tew ryu, duncan ryu, koga ryu, etc)



Some of us have been trying to help dispell that distortion by you and others. But we get called various names for not being positive and looking the other way when people rip off students using the ninjutsu name.


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## Shogun (May 13, 2005)

I didnt distort anything. thats just what I thought when I first started training because I was a newbie and didnt know better. I do now. I am glad you guys are jerks. otherwise I would be doing Tew ryu playhouse-jutsu. lol.


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## heretic888 (May 25, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> In Japan, prior to 1872 Buddhism and Shinto were often combined, and in some cases, this was refered to as "Shugen" (more information here: http://members.shaw.ca/shugendo/intro.html).



I think I should also point out that the "merging" of Shinto and Buddhist elements was especially common among the Tantric sects in question. The Shingon-shu referred to such systems as Ryobu Shinto. 

There was actually a whole metaphysical and philosophical framework for doing so; it wasn't a simple 'take-what-you-like, discard-what-you-don't' approach. Very interesting

From http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shinto.shtml

_Ryobu Shinto means dual Shinto. This is a term used to refer generally to Shinto as syncretized with Buddhism, and specifically to that syncretic Shinto as interpreted by Shingon Buddhism (see Shingon Shinto below), in contrast to Tendai Shinto. If the shrine has a plaque on it's gate, it is Ryobu Shinto, which means Shinto influenced by Buddhism. Because Buddhism and Shinto have coexisted in Japan for hundreds of years, they have had strong influences on each another, even lending each other gods, and altering the way each is practiced. 

Shingon Shinto
Also called Ryobu Shinto, an interpretation of Shinto according to the doctrines of the Shingon sect of Buddhism. In the esoteric Shingon sect, the unity of the metaphysical world with the phenomenal and natural world is explained via the dualistic principles of the Kongokai (vajradhatu or diamond world) and Taizokai (garbhadhatu or womb world). See Ryokai Mandala for many more details. According to this interpretation, the relative is equivalent to the absolute and phenomenon is equivalent to noumenon. This principle was extended to assert that the native Japanese deities are equivalent to the Buddhist deities; for example, Amaterasu Omikami is viewed as equivalent to Dainichi Nyorai (Mahavairocana). This school of thought was said to have been initiated by Kukai (773-835), the founder of the Shingon sect in Japan, but it is in fact a later development. Kukai was, however, a strong believer in Shinto deities, and established the shrine Nibutsuhime Jinja as the tutelary deity of Koyasan, the mountain monastery which he founded. Other terms for the blending of Shinto with Buddhism are honji suijaku and shinbutsu shugo. 

Theory of original reality and manifested traces. A theory of Shinto-Buddhist syncretism. Originally a Buddhist term used to explain the Buddha's nature as a metaphysical being (honji) and the historical figure Sakyamuni (suijaku). This theory was used in Japan to explain the relation between Shinto gods and Buddhas; the Buddhas were regarded as the honji, and the Shinto gods as their incarnations or suijaku. Theoretically, honji and suijaku are an indivisible unity and there is no question of valuing one more highly than the other; but in the early Nara period, the honji was regarded as more important than the suijaku. Gradually they both came to be regarded as one; but in the Kamakura period, Shintoists also proposed the opposite theory, that the Shinto gods were the honji and the Buddhas the suijaku. This theory was called han-honji-suijaku setsu or shinpon-butsuju setsu. 

Meaning: Avatar, or Shinto Kami as Manifestations of Buddhist Deities  

More on Honjisuijaku
Ancient Shinto did not bother to erect shrines until the 3rd and 4th century. Not until the country was unified under the Yamato in the 4th century did Shinto begin to acquire a clear hierarchical structure with the Yamato gods and high-priest emperor at top and local gods at bottom. The first known Japanese histories were efforts to legitimize the imperial line by merging myths and legends concerning local ujigami with the Yamato mythology. No Shinto doctrine as such, however, was postulated until the mid-Heian HONJISUIJAKU doctrine stipulating that Shinto gods were really manifestations of Buddhist deities, thereby linking indigenous beliefs to Buddhist teachings. 

In feudal and early-modern periods, a number of sects emerged professing an independent and pure Shintoism, including Ise, Yoshida, and Fukko Shinto. But in Meiji period, the government makes determined efforts to promote emperor worship and all the trappings of Shinto, so local shrine teachings and festivals were brought into line with the national doctrine, and local priests lost the authority to do much except conduct ceremonies.

Shinbutsu Shugo
The harmonization of Shinto, the native Japanese religion, with Buddhism, which came from India via China. According to Buddhist doctrine, a person who has done good may become a deva after death, living in heaven, encouraging humans to do good, and acting as a protector of Buddhism. When Buddhism was introduced to Japan around 538 or so, the word deva was translated not only as the Japanese ten, but also as kami, in order to facilitate the propagation of the new religion among the common people. This process of syncretization became particularly conspicuous during the Nara period. Before constructing the Big Buddha at the Todaiji in Nara (741), Emperor Shomu first commanded the priest Gyoki to report the plan to the goddess at Ise no Jingu and to make an offering of relics of the Buddha; Buddhist scriptures were also offered to the Usa Hachiman Shrine. Syncretic practices such as building shrines on temple grounds and pagodas in shrine precincts, and of reading Buddhist scriptures before Shinto deities or presenting them to shrines, all continued until the two religions were forcibly separated in the early Meiji period (see shinbutsu bunri below). The theory of honji suijaku was developed during the Heian period to explain this relationship and propagated through such movements as Shingon Shinto and Tendai Shinto. Shinto develops close ties with Shingon and Tendai Buddhism during the Heian period._


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## Shogun (May 26, 2005)

Merging shinto with Buddhism wasnt, and isnt, all that uncommon. both are open religions to a degree, and from what I ahve heard from my Shinto preist, a lot of japanese use shinto as an outline for life, and deal with buddhism for death.


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## Bigshadow (May 26, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> I'm greatly troubled by the fact that there is something out there that I'd like to have but probably can't. Even back in "the day" there were a lot of hoops to jump through but now...


 It is there for taking. You get out of it what you put into it. Find a good teacher and learn. Go to Japan for yourself and learn from the source. I don't think there are hoops, just personal obstacles.

  If it is your passion, seek it out.  That is part of the training.

  I hope that I didn't misinterpret the quote.  If so I am sorry.

  Keep going,
  David


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## Bigshadow (May 26, 2005)

ninjaJim said:
			
		

> What I am trying to say is that there is so much more to this art than just the physical techniques. It would be a shame to train and not get the entire package.


 On a related note, I once asked a shihan if I should meditate or something extra outside the dojo to acquire that "6th sense" ability. He told me... 'Nope! Just train! It will happen naturally.'

 I think it is there, 2 years or so (how long you trained?), may not be long enough to get that ability, but that varies from person to person. If you are looking for "magic", then you might want to talk to a magician. I think that everything that appears to be magical about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, is just natural ability that we have lost through social and environmental engineering, nothing magic about it.


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## Bigshadow (May 26, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Some of us have been trying to help dispell that distortion by you and others. But we get called various names for not being positive and looking the other way when people rip off students using the ninjutsu name.


   I think you meant "Some of us have been trying to help dispell that distortion *for* you and others."   No?


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