# Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news



## andyjeffries

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110607/SPORTS/706079908/1121/SPORTS21

Cole Becker, 6, is believed to be the youngest American to ever receive a Kukkiwon black belt.  Earning a taekwondo black belt is a significant achievement for people of any age. For Taigon Taekwondo students, it is a three-day process. The first day is a written examination, the second day a test of strength and physical stamina with a 3-mile run, push-ups and sit-ups; and on the third day the display of taekwondo forms and techniques, including sparring.

Cole Becker had to exhibit the same proficiency as adult students, with two exceptions. Children under 14 break half-inch boards with kicks and chops, while older students break bricks. Also, Cole's written test was actually an oral exam because he is still learning to read and write.

Cole scored very well on all his tests, including his written (oral) exam. One requirement was that he had to know Korean numbers 1 to 100 as well as many other Korean words.

The best thing about taekwondo, Cole Becker said, "is that I get to be in the same class as my brother." That would be 8-year-old Seth, also a black belt.

I don't agree with 6 or 8 year olds earning a first poom (I think 10 would be "early"), but hey, it's not my decision and the Kukkiwon obviously doesn't mind...

Begin the ranting now...


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Im speechless, absolutely ridiculous. Isnt there an minimum age for a bb in the kukkiwon?


----------



## terryl965

Wow six, what is next two year olds running around.


----------



## StagTown

id not wish to make an harsh comment without seeing vid footage and iv known some exceptional pooms but for me theres just not enough years in training or maturity for an under 10 to grasp the concept of being awarded the rank,but theres also adults who never grasp it! I just hope the youngster handles the aclaim well, his every move will be scrutinized and iv known quite a lot lose the passion to improve after beeing moved to quickly up the ladder.

bests stag


----------



## puunui

I promoted a 6 year old to Kukkiwon 1st Poom. She regularly won double gold at JOs.


----------



## StudentCarl

In our little tigers class of 4 year olds, we've got a tag-along 2 year old younger sibling who we include when she's up for it. She's eager to do what the 'big kids' do, and often mimics the older kids from off the floor during the 6-10 year old class that her sister is in. I can see how a student who truly starts while in diapers could become a poom...exceptional but not out-of-bounds.


----------



## terryl965

To puunui did she win double gold or did she have nobody and was awarded double gold?

I have had tag alongs as well but never have I promoted anybody to a poom before 9, they simply did not test to much and was given ample time to grow and mature. I am not saying some cannot get there but the whole thing at six is just bad in my opinion. I have three sons that would train everyday except Sunday and none of them was given a poom until they was 9-10 and they grew up inside a dojaang. I hope the KKW and instructor see what direction and message they are sending to the general public.


----------



## Twin Fist

andyjeffries said:


> http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110607/SPORTS/706079908/1121/SPORTS21 Also, Cole's written test was actually an oral exam because he is still learning to read and write.




and your KKW blackbelts, with all your ranting about "international standards" are worthless and on the same ground as the ATA.......


you are welcome to it.

anyone staying with the KKW after this deserves what they get


----------



## ETinCYQX

I'm a firm believer in "becoming" a black belt rather than "getting" a black belt, and I don't see how a six year old can possibly "be" a black belt. 



Twin Fist said:


> and your KKW blackbelts, with all your ranting about "international standards" are worthless and on the same ground as the ATA.......
> 
> 
> you are welcome to it.
> 
> anyone staying with the KKW after this deserves what they get



With all due respect, bull. This has nothing to do with KKW and everything to do with the individual instructor. Literally anyone with a high enough rank in KKW TaeKwonDo can give away a black belt. The Kukkiwon doesn't investigate each new BB, that would be impossible.


----------



## Twin Fist

the instructor is an ***, and the entire KKW organization, BY ALLOWING IT, is just as guilty

lets put aside the made up history

lets put aside the political crap

lets put aside the things they allow to happen

it is just another org, and like all orgs, it is exists mainly to take money from people to make other people rich

*puke*


----------



## terryl965

By what you are saying T.F. than we should get rid of all orgs. including G.M. Rhee because he has promoted young kids to B.B. as well... Than again the woman who promoted you has also promoted childern to BB by the age of seven? So what does that mean? If we got rid of every single person that has promoted someone we would have very little instructors left. Since you was promoted by her does that in any means make yours any less worthy in your mind? I mean you are saying the KKW is at fault because an instructor did this and they should stop issueing rank, so by the same means your instructor should stop issueing rank to adults because she is absolutely doing the exact same thing.

Funny how that is the KKW or ATA or ITF does it and they are crapola, but yet personal stand alone school do the exact same thing but that seems to be ok with people. In my mind that sound so confusing so any of you that believe the KKW or any org is at fault ask yourself if yur instructor has ever given a BB to anybody under say the age of ten.


----------



## dancingalone

What I took from some of the discussions in the previous months is that the KKW leadership is reaching out to instructors in other parts of the world, like the US, and is trying to raise the general level of TKD by teaching & supporting affiliated instructors through seminars and other visits by officials.  I think this is a good thing.

It would also be a good thing IMHO if the KKW made requirements for promotion more rigorous and initiated some mandatory means of verification to ensure the program is followed.  Whether that meshes with the idea of inclusiveness mentioned before by Puunui, I do not know.  (By the way I think inclusiveness and acceptance are wonderful things for a martial arts organization to embrace, understanding that there must be a balance between tolerance and unity of technical purpose.)


----------



## mango.man

Forcing a 6 year old into a 3 mile run and to break boards with hands that are still in such early stages of development of bones, growth plates, tendons etc?  I think these people should be arrested for child abuse.  Parents, instructors, masters the whole lot of them.


----------



## Twin Fist

yes, down with ANY and ALL orgs that promote under 10 to bb


and yeah terry, i bitched at Kristi too, and she relied that she had to pay the rent, doesnt mean i gotta like it




terryl965 said:


> By what you are saying T.F. than we should get rid of all orgs. including G.M. Rhee because he has promoted young kids to B.B. as well... Than again the woman who promoted you has also promoted childern to BB by the age of seven? So what does that mean? If we got rid of every single person that has promoted someone we would have very little instructors left. Since you was promoted by her does that in any means make yours any less worthy in your mind? I mean you are saying the KKW is at fault because an instructor did this and they should stop issueing rank, so by the same means your instructor should stop issueing rank to adults because she is absolutely doing the exact same thing.
> 
> Funny how that is the KKW or ATA or ITF does it and they are crapola, but yet personal stand alone school do the exact same thing but that seems to be ok with people. In my mind that sound so confusing so any of you that believe the KKW or any org is at fault ask yourself if yur instructor has ever given a BB to anybody under say the age of ten.


----------



## tinker1

I started training when I was 5... and yet I still believe that kids should not train before they are 12 or 13 years old at a MINIMUM.  

Concerning this KKW BB kid - considering all that needs to be taught and learned, when did he start training?  before he could walk?

Training little kids is simply a money maker for training studios these days.  You can pack a heck of a lot of them onto the training floor... and their parents are happy to pay you big bucks if you can teach these kids to be respectful to their parents.

Glorified baby sitting is all it seems to be to me.  And where the heck are the parents in the "teaching respect" aspect?  Shouldn't that be THEIR job?


----------



## terryl965

Twin Fist said:


> yes, down with ANY and ALL orgs that promote under 10 to bb
> 
> 
> and yeah terry, i bitched at Kristi too, and she relied that she had to pay the rent, doesnt mean i gotta like it


 
Never said you had to like, I was just wondering if you thought the same way about instructors that do it. I understand paying the rent and keeping the doors open all commercial schools face these problems on a monthly basis. Good to know you feel the same all around make it better for me.


----------



## Nomad

I get that many schools need the revenue provided by kids and their parents to keep the doors open.  What I don't get, and probably never will, is the concept that kids this young need to be given black belts to do it.  

It just smacks of the triumph of glitz over substance, and a cheap marketing ploy for the uninformed.  I have no problem with the kids learning martial arts; heck, my own girls have been doing karate since they were 4, and my oldest was just promoted into the senior program a year early at 12 (still at least 4-5 years of hard training from getting her black belt based on her current skills and knowledge).  

IMHO, part of the criteria for a black belt should be that they're taking on leadership and teaching roles in the dojo, and that immediately rules out this child (who may be a great performer, but I certainly would never expect to be able to lead or teach a class of mixed-age students).


----------



## msmitht

I have yet to see a 6 yr old who can pass the kkw exam. Most can not memorize one poomsae, the test requires all 8. Smaller boards are understandable.
My question is this: what does this child have to look forward to? If you follow the time requirements he will be 3rd poom by age 9. Unless you go the 4th poom route he/she can not test for 9 years.
Rotflol!
Keep it real. Poom is a high level. Let's keep it to those who have at least hit puberty.


----------



## Namii

Making a 6 yr old run for 3 miles? Its hard enough as is as an adult. In my Army days I could do it but it was always a challenge. I was lucky to even just pass the 2 miles run for the PT test (Running never was something I was good at)
The youngest our class has is like 7 or 8 and theyre all lower color belts.


----------



## Twin Fist

terryl965 said:


> Never said you had to like, I was just wondering if you thought the same way about instructors that do it. I understand paying the rent and keeping the doors open all commercial schools face these problems on a monthly basis. Good to know you feel the same all around make it better for me.



Terry, trust me, i am a dick to EVERYONE...lol


----------



## ETinCYQX

That was you being a dick? You need help. I'd be glad to teach you, you can probably get your dick-black-belt in three months.


----------



## puunui

terryl965 said:


> To puunui did she win double gold or did she have nobody and was awarded double gold?



Once or twice maybe, but she won double gold for four or five years in a row. But even if she wasn't like that, I still wouldn't have any problems with promoting a 6 year old, or even younger. There is no minimum age requirement for poom promotions under the Kukkiwon Rules and Regulations. 




terryl965 said:


> I hope the KKW and instructor see what direction and message they are sending to the general public.



I think they are aware of the message that is being sent, which is: "1st Poom is not a big deal." Personally, I am not diminished or affected in any way if someone gets promoted to any rank. What do I care if someone else promotes a six year old is a 1st Poom?


----------



## puunui

msmitht said:


> Keep it real. Poom is a high level.




To me, poom is a low level. But then again, 4th or 5th Dan are relatively low levels too....


----------



## terryl965

puunui let me ask this of you, so you would not have a problem with 22 year old Masters. Because at that age they would be 3rd by the time the transfer from poom to dan at 15 and 19 could be a Master with the KKW. I understand I believe what you are saying but do not know if I complete agree with Masters at 20.


----------



## puunui

terryl965 said:


> puunui let me ask this of you, so you would not have a problem with 22 year old Masters. Because at that age they would be 3rd by the time the transfer from poom to dan at 15 and 19 could be a Master with the KKW. I understand I believe what you are saying but do not know if I complete agree with Masters at 20.



I don't have any problem with a 19 or 20 year old Kukkiwon 4th Dan. According to the Kukkiwon, 1st through 5th Dan are Masters, so we could have 15 year olds using that term. ATC's instructor is 24 or 25 and I think a Kukkiwon 5th Dan.


----------



## ATC

puunui said:


> I don't have any problem with a 19 or 20 year old Kukkiwon 4th Dan. According to the Kukkiwon, 1st through 5th Dan are Masters, so we could have 15 year olds using that term. ATC's instructor is 24 or 25 and I think a Kukkiwon 5th Dan.


25 and well respected by Masters his senior by 20, 30 years and up. His father is also well respected as is his Uncle. His pedigree is pretty top notch. He has been Instructing since 14. He started assisting at the age of 8.

I am not say that all 8 year old can or should do this. Even he will tell you that it was hard and he was scared, but his father is old school and was (is) one tough cookie. The stories he tells us I would not put my kids though and I consider myself pretty tough.


----------



## wayneshin

Any organisation is entitled to set its own requirements and standards for Black Belt. 
Although I guess having a standard that a six year old can achieve raises questions about that standard. Devalues the Black belt throughout the whole organisaiton.


----------



## puunui

ATC said:


> but his father is old school and was (is) one tough cookie.




I remember his father, Master JW Suh.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Ummm....never mind.


----------



## TaekwondoDad

Ok, my better, perhaps best judgment is to avoid this thread, but no one ever said I used good, let alone better or best judgment.

My daughter started training at age 3. Last February, at age 6, she tested for and earned her Black Belt. 

I understand there are those who believe no one under (pick an age, 18, 20, 16, 10) should earn their first poom. Perhaps this is a discussion that needs to be had within the Taekwondo community. It is a shame that it cannot be had without insulting and denegrating entire orgnizations, masters/grandmasters, children or parents. 

When my wife and I signed our daughter up for TKD, we knew very little about it and imagined it would take her years, if ever, to achieve the rank of Black Belt. She enjoyed the classes and we could see positive benefits in her coordination, strength, concentration and other areas. 

To those who say parents are only looking to teach the kids discipline or respect and where are the parents in teaching this, in our case our daughter has never had a problem with discipline or respect and where was I, her parent, while she was training? Sitting in a chair at the edge of the mat encouraging her and learning all I could to assist her in her endeavor. You see, her Taekwondo has become part of my parenting plan/strategy/technique. It is a tool I use in raising my daughter just as I am a tool her master uses in teaching her TKD.

As for those who say a 6 year old cannot memorize 1 form, my daughter has knows all her Taeguk forms as well as Koryo. She assists in class, works one on one with lower belts and has been sought out by adults for help with their forms.

She has also competed locally, regionally and nationally and won multiple gold medals for forms and sparring. Not once has she been handed a medal for being the only one in her division. She has defeated others her age and rank at each tournament. She was scheduled to compete at the USAT ESPN/Rise event and we cancelled our trip when we learned she would not have a match. 

My daughter loves Taekwondo and her masters. She trains 1-2 hours a day 4-5 days a week during the school year. Over her breaks she trains 7 days a week 2-3 hours a day. We have seen how her stamina, strength, concentration and coordination compare to others her age and older who are starting TKD. She has worked hard, tested and earned her rank.

For those that ask what young Black Belts have to look forward to, hopefully a lifetime of participating and growing in TKD!

Can she beat up a full grown adult male? Of course not. Can she do everything an adult black belt can do? Of course not. Even considering these things, I don't see how her achievements lessen or demean anyone else's. 

The fact that children are training is a fact of life right now. The fact that the Kukkiwon allows it and sanctions young Black Belts is obvious. The bylaws allow for 4th degree pooms. Do the math and you would need to start with a 10 year old black belt to get a 16 year old 4th degree. 

Perhaps there is a need to distinguish between children and adults. I would have thought poom-v Dan did this, but seeing as how both are referred to as Black Belts, perhaps more is needed.

A constructive dialog about how to encourage youth to participate in Taekwondo, how to offer them advancement perhaps on a different track could lead to growth and strengthening of TKD. Complaining that kids ruin the sport, despoil the title and insulting organizations, masters, young taekwondoins and parents only hurts an already divided house.

Finally, I have been surprised by the number of people that ask if my daughter will continue with TKD now that she has earned her Black Belt.  Her master has taught that Black Belt, first poom or Dan, is the BEGINNING, not the end.  This discussion seems to lose sight of that.


----------



## ETinCYQX

While I don't often comment on other school's policies, I have to say I firmly believe a six year old cannot be a black belt. They can get one, sure, but to be a black belt is a different thing altogether and a six year old can't do it IMO.


----------



## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> While I don't often comment on other school's policies, I have to say I firmly believe a six year old cannot be a black belt. They can get one, sure, but to be a black belt is a different thing altogether and a six year old can't do it IMO.



I never understood that sort of rhetoric, "be" a black belt. A black belt is only a piece of  cloth which you wrap around your waist. Why would you want to be that? I would rather just be myself. That is really all you can be.


----------



## ETinCYQX

It's exactly what you make of it. 

I guess by "be" a black belt, I mean to justify the rank. To justify the rank, I believe one has to be able to lead a class, train with students, etc. Six year old children cannot do this and in my experience, very very few have enough motor skills and coordination to get the techniques right to what I'd consider an acceptable black belt level.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I was going to leave this completely alone, because I really don't have a dog in this fight.  But, I'm bored so here goes...

Can folks argue that the KKW is simply a money making machine?  I suppose they could and the KKW themselves have provided some pretty good ammo in recent years.

Can folks argue that this instructor is simply selling the art of TKD as a commercial enterprise?  I suppose they could, and many do even if this one isn't.  

Can folks argue that the KKW standards just aren't what they should be?  I suppose they could as well.

Can folks argue that a 6 year old BB cheapens the art as a whole?  I suppose that is the point some are trying to make here in this thread.

But to all that, here's the real question;  what is a black belt anyway?  Beyond just a piece of fabric.  What's it suppose to 'mean'.  Well, here's the kicker...it doesn't really mean anything.  Is there;

 any universal rule for the minumum age of a BB?
 any universal rule for the minimum time in training to achieve a BB?
 any universal rule for the minimum time to progress from one BB grade to another?
How about no, no and no.  And this isn't just from one art to the next, there is no real standard even within the same art most of the time.  And it can even vary from school to school in the same art.

So the main question for those that are less than enthused about a 6 year old KKW BB...by what stardard are you judging.  And hey, I'm not saying its right or good or wise.  I'm just looking at the big picture.  Belts began with Kano Jigoro for sport competitions.  They were white, brown and black.  Now we have every color of the rainbow and stripes and tape and whatever else.  What is the standard?  How much is too much?  How little is too little?  How young is too young?

And by what standard to you make the judegement?  

And if you don't like it...what are you going to do about it?


----------



## ETinCYQX

Kong Soo Do said:


> I was going to leave this completely alone, because I really don't have a dog in this fight.  But, I'm bored so here goes...
> *
> Glad you chimed in.*
> 
> Can folks argue that the KKW is simply a money making machine?  I suppose they could and the KKW themselves have provided some pretty good ammo in recent years.
> 
> *Sure, and yes, they kind of have. I don't personally think so, being a Kukkiwon TaeKwonDoin who wouldn't have it any other way, but that's life.*
> 
> Can folks argue that this instructor is simply selling the art of TKD as a commercial enterprise?  I suppose they could, and many do even if this one isn't.
> 
> *Lots do. That's my first instinct but I don't know the man, obviously, and I don't want to dismiss his school offhand.*
> 
> Can folks argue that the KKW standards just aren't what they should be?  I suppose they could as well.
> 
> *KKW standards are completely enforced by the instructor. If I could find someone to apply for it, my black Lab could be a certified Kukkiwon black belt.* *It's more or less just a standard curriculum.*
> 
> Can folks argue that a 6 year old BB cheapens the art as a whole?  I suppose that is the point some are trying to make here in this thread.
> 
> *Maybe. But that's not really my feeling, more that a black belt has responsibilities that a six year old can't really fulfill. *
> 
> But to all that, here's the real question;  what is a black belt anyway?  Beyond just a piece of fabric.  What's it suppose to 'mean'.  Well, here's the kicker...it doesn't really mean anything.  Is there;
> 
> any universal rule for the minumum age of a BB?
> any universal rule for the minimum time in training to achieve a BB?
> any universal rule for the minimum time to progress from one BB grade to another?
> How about no, no and no.  And this isn't just from one art to the next, there is no real standard even within the same art most of the time.  And it can even vary from school to school in the same art.
> 
> *KKW sets time-in-rank requirements, but again, not enforced by KKW. *
> 
> So the main question for those that are less than enthused about a 6 year old KKW BB...by what stardard are you judging.  And hey, I'm not saying its right or good or wise.  I'm just looking at the big picture.  Belts began with Kano Jigoro for sport competitions.  They were white, brown and black.  Now we have every color of the rainbow and stripes and tape and whatever else.  What is the standard?  How much is too much?  How little is too little?  How young is too young?
> 
> *Well, I'm judging by the KKW standards set forth in the curriculum. I'd like to see 11 year old TKD poom belts at the youngest. I know some 11 year olds with good fight sense and excellent overall games, I think that's reasonable for 1st Poom. Convert to Dan at 14.* *Again, just me. I also personally like stripes, they can be awarded to kids in class to show progress during longer belt gaps like, say, yellow to green. *
> 
> And by what standard to you make the judegement?
> 
> *Kukkiwon standards how they are set out in the "book", so to speak, plus being able to perform the extra stuff added like HapKiDo hoshinsul techniques, maybe weapons. *
> 
> And if you don't like it...what are you going to do about it?
> 
> *Teach and run my school (in the near future, i.e the next few weeks), the way I feel it should be run. If MY standards in teaching hold up to what I believe they should be, then I'm happy. When it comes down to it, all I can do is produce well rounded, well prepared students and be happy with the knowledge that that's what I'm doing.*



My take on your questions.


----------



## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> I guess by "be" a black belt, I mean to justify the rank. To justify the rank, I believe one has to be able to lead a class, train with students, etc. Six year old children cannot do this and in my experience, very very few have enough motor skills and coordination to get the techniques right to what I'd consider an acceptable black belt level.



Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem. 

One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.


----------



## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> *Teach and run my school (in the near future, i.e the next few weeks),  the way I feel it should be run. If MY standards in teaching hold up to  what I believe they should be, then I'm happy. When it comes down to  it, all I can do is produce well rounded, well prepared students and be  happy with the knowledge that that's what I'm doing.*



But isn't that exactly what the other guy who promoted that six year old to Kukkiwon 1st Poom doing as well? Why is he wrong and you right, especially since the rank recommendation was approved by the Kukkiwon? Doesn't the Kukkiwon set the standard for who does or does not get promoted?


----------



## ETinCYQX

puunui said:


> Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem.
> 
> One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.



Well, I justify my rank to myself and the man who promotes me. My students will justify their ranks to themselves and me. 

What I said above is what I want in myself as a black belt (Monday) and what I will want in my eventual black belt students.


----------



## ETinCYQX

puunui said:


> But isn't that exactly what the other guy who promoted that six year old to Kukkiwon 1st Poom doing as well? Why is he wrong and you right, especially since the rank recommendation was approved by the Kukkiwon? Doesn't the Kukkiwon set the standard for who does or does not get promoted?



Yes, the KKW sets the standard, but obviously they don't review it carefully. Like I said, with a recommendation from an instructor I think my dog could get a black belt from them. Actually, my papers went through before my test for the purpose of ceremony. 

Well, I don't think he's running it the way I feel it should be run, obviously. He's running it as a money factory as near as I can figure. But hey, maybe he feels this kid is a justifiable black belt. Maybe she is a justifiable black belt, I don't know. 

Let me ask you a question, now. Do you think KKW blackbelts should be able to teach classes? Do you think a 6 year old can lead a class?


----------



## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> Well, I justify my rank to myself and the man who promotes me. My students will justify their ranks to themselves and me. What I said above is what I want in myself as a black belt (Monday) and what I will want in my eventual black belt students.




Ok.


----------



## Twin Fist

TaekwondoDad said:


> My daughter started training at age 3. Last February, at age 6, she tested for and earned her Black Belt. .



and your daughters instructor is what is wrong with TKD and why TKD is the joke of martial arts now days.....

sorry, i am sure you are a great dad, and i am sure your little princess is very good FOR HER AGE

but there is no way she is a black belt.

i am sorry, but this **** is out of hand


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much the test was for the lad in the news article?

For TKDdad, how much for your daughter if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## mastercole

andyjeffries said:


> http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110607/SPORTS/706079908/1121/SPORTS21
> 
> Cole Becker, 6, is believed to be the youngest American to ever receive a Kukkiwon black belt.



Not true.  But good PR angle, it got them the story.

Kukkiwon has two designations after Geup.  One for adults, and one for children.

DAN is for adults.  Yudanja is 1st DAN to 5th DAN.  
These are called DAN HOLDERS.  They wear the Black Belt

POOM is for children ages of 3 to 15.5 years old. Yupoomja is 1st POOM to 4th POOM
These are called POOM HOLDER. They do not wear the POOM belt, not the Black Belt

It does not state Black Belt on the POOM certificate from Kukkiwon.

I was told Jidokwan was the first to use POOM. It was GM Chong Woo Lee's idea.
Many children were coming into Taekwondo and he felt they needed higher ranking to stay motivated but he did not want children wearing a Black Belt, so he instituted the POOM Belt.

To say Kukkiwon issues Black Belts for children is incorrect.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> Not true. But good PR angle, it got them the story.
> 
> Kukkiwon has two designations after Geup. One for adults, and one for children.
> 
> DAN is for adults. Yudanja is 1st DAN to 5th DAN.
> These are called DAN HOLDERS. They wear the Black Belt
> 
> POOM is for children ages of 3 to 15.5 years old. Yupoomja is 1st POOM to 4th POOM
> These are called POOM HOLDER. They do not wear the POOM belt, not the Black Belt
> 
> It does not state Black Belt on the POOM certificate from Kukkiwon.
> 
> I was told Jidokwan was the first to use POOM. It was GM Chong Woo Lee's idea.
> Many children were coming into Taekwondo and he felt they needed higher ranking to stay motivated but he did not want children wearing a Black Belt, so he instituted the POOM Belt.
> 
> To say Kukkiwon issues Black Belts for children is incorrect.


 
The belt looks black in the photos with gold writing???


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> the instructor is an ***, and the entire KKW organization, BY ALLOWING IT, is just as guilty
> 
> lets put aside the made up history
> 
> lets put aside the political crap
> 
> lets put aside the things they allow to happen
> 
> it is just another org, and like all orgs, it is exists mainly to take money from people to make other people rich
> 
> *puke*



You don't add anything to the Taekwondo conversation, your comments are just ignorant.


----------



## mastercole

Kong Soo Do said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> Not true. But good PR angle, it got them the story.
> 
> Kukkiwon has two designations after Geup. One for adults, and one for children.
> 
> DAN is for adults. Yudanja is 1st DAN to 5th DAN.
> These are called DAN HOLDERS. They wear the Black Belt
> 
> POOM is for children ages of 3 to 15.5 years old. Yupoomja is 1st POOM to 4th POOM
> These are called POOM HOLDER. They do not wear the POOM belt, not the Black Belt
> 
> It does not state Black Belt on the POOM certificate from Kukkiwon.
> 
> I was told Jidokwan was the first to use POOM. It was GM Chong Woo Lee's idea.
> Many children were coming into Taekwondo and he felt they needed higher ranking to stay motivated but he did not want children wearing a Black Belt, so he instituted the POOM Belt.
> 
> To say Kukkiwon issues Black Belts for children is incorrect.<<<<
> 
> 
> 
> Kong Soo Do said:
> 
> 
> 
> The belt looks black in the photos with gold writing???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kukkiwon sends just a certificate.  The instructor orders the belt from Century or whoever, he could wrap a golden/silver/platinum belt on the kid if he wants, that does not mean Kukkiwon issued it.
Click to expand...


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> Terry, trust me, i am a dick to EVERYONE...lol



Except in person, then your a kitty cat


----------



## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> Yes, the KKW sets the standard, but obviously they don't review it carefully. Like I said, with a recommendation from an instructor I think my dog could get a black belt from them. Actually, my papers went through before my test for the purpose of ceremony.



that is how the system is set up internationally, an instructor makes a recommendation, the Kukkiwon trusts the instructor's judgment on such matters, and after checking there is enough time in grade, etc. the promotion is approved. There is no "review" other than that.




ETinCYQX said:


> Well, I don't think he's running it the way I feel it should be run, obviously. He's running it as a money factory as near as I can figure. But hey, maybe he feels this kid is a justifiable black belt. Maybe she is a justifiable black belt, I don't know.



That is your opinion, to which you are entitled. But that doesn't mean he has to justify the promotion to you or anyone else. You yourself just said that you do not have to justify the promotion to people outside of your chain. 




ETinCYQX said:


> Let me ask you a question, now. Do you think KKW blackbelts should be able to teach classes? Do you think a 6 year old can lead a class?



I do not consider a 1st Dan or 1st Poom to be an instructor level rank. I consider it to be a student level rank. To me, instructor level ranks are 4th Dan and higher. I believe that 1st through 3rd Dan should be primarily focused on their own training, not the training of others. You can be an assistant instructor at 3rd Dan or 3rd Poom, but the bulk of your time should still be on your own training. Under the Kukkiwon, you cannot earn the Instructor Qualification certificate until you are at least 4th Dan. 4th Dan is the minimum rank of instructors, not 1st Dan.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much the test was for the lad in the news article?



Here are the Kukkiwon promotion fees:

1st Poom/Dan: $70.00
2nd Poom/Dan: $90.00
3rd Poom/Dan: $120.00
4th Poom/Dan: $150.00
5th Dan: $300.00
6th Dan: $350.00
7th Dan: $450.00
8th Dan: Free
9th Dan: Free
10th Dan: Free

How much does your organization charge?


----------



## Twin Fist

mastercole said:


> You don't add anything to the Taekwondo conversation, your comments are just ignorant.



one more time, "master" rudeness and personal insults dont fly around here, you have already been reported a few times, either change your posting style, or you wont last long in these parts.

trust me, i know.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

terryl965 said:


> Never said you had to like, I was just wondering if you thought the same way about instructors that do it. I understand paying the rent and keeping the doors open all commercial schools face these problems on a monthly basis. Good to know you feel the same all around make it better for me.


Ive never liked the idea of defending the slipping standards by saying commercial dojangs have to pay the rent, put food on the table etc. I have run a business (not martial arts related) for 12 years and have built my reputation on high standards. If there comes a time where the only way I can survive financially is to lower my standards or compromise my principles I will close the business and get a job doing something else. I really feel upset when I hear martial arts instructors say that they had to lower standards, hand out black belts, etc just to stay in business. The greatest pride I get when I look at my business is that I have been able to stay successful without "cutting corners". This is certainly not aimed at you Terry, after reading your posts for the last couple of years Id love to train at your club.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> You don't add anything to the Taekwondo conversation, your comments are just ignorant.


It doesnt matter whether you or I agree with TF's opinion, the fact of the matter is that many people agree with his way of thinking. TKD is losing credibility because of things like this. I know its easy to get high up in an org to the point that you become blinded as to what is happening, but take the rose coloured glasses off for a second and take a look around and you will see that tkd is becoming a laughing stock to many people because of things like this. As I said in another thread, just because something is popular doesnt automatically make it 'good'. Mcdonalds is popular. I remember when I was shopping around trying to find a tkd club when I started and it was almost impossible to find a positive word anywhere on the net about tkd. Yes, other arts cop some negativity as well, but nowhere near as much as tkd. I love taekwondo and hate seeing it go down this path.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> It doesnt matter wheter you or I agree with TF's opinion, the fact of the matter is that many people agree with his way of thinking. TKD is losing credibility because of things like this.



At 80 million members in 197 nations, Olympic event, it's doing pretty good so far.

I'd much rather be associated with it that some wacky backyard so called SD program.  Yeah, three friends get together, polish our Harley's, drink beer and talk about bar fighting, what kind of training is that?. Funny Papers training...........

And in my experience the people who think it has no credibility did not have the toughness to last in it, or try it in the first place (no jewels). But that's just me.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> one more time, "master" rudeness and personal insults dont fly around here, you have already been reported a few times, either change your posting style, or you wont last long in these parts.
> 
> trust me, i know.



Report this while your at it.



Twin Fist said:


> Originally Posted by Twin Fist
> the instructor is an ***, and the entire KKW organization, BY ALLOWING IT, is just as guilty.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> At 80 million members in 197 nations, Olympic event, it's doing pretty good so far.
> 
> I'd much rather be associated with it that some wacky backyard so called SD program.  Yeah, three friends get together, polish our Harley's, drink beer and talk about bar fighting, what kind of training is that?. Funny Papers training...........
> 
> And in my experience the people who think it has no credibility did not have the toughness to last in it, or try it in the first place (no jewels). But that's just me.


I will say again, using popularuty as a measure of how good something is just doesnt cut it with me, unless of course you are driven soley by making money (reminds me of a tkd org I know of). I, too would rather not be involved in a "wacky backyard SD program", but thats beside the point. There are many, hundreds in fact, martial arts that are very credible that do not operate out of backyards. Once again, you like generalising. Again, if you take the rose coloured glasses off you will see there are more martial arts in the world than just tkd and backyard SD programs. Go and have a look sometime, there are heaps in my area and I imagine over there there would be even more to look at I am aware of your opinion on this subject and I respect it yet dont agree with it. I have seen from previous threads that if I "feed the troll" we will bore everybody with a meaningless 7 page rant that goes around in circles. I have made my opinion clear, as have you. For the sake of the other posters I think its best we leave our discussion here. Cheers.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> hundreds in fact, martial arts that are very credible that do not operate out of backyards.



I get out and about in the world quite often.

"hundreds in fact, martial arts that are very credible that do not operate out of backyards."

Can you name me a dozen or so?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> Here are the Kukkiwon promotion fees:
> 
> 1st Poom/Dan: $70.00
> 2nd Poom/Dan: $90.00
> 3rd Poom/Dan: $120.00
> 4th Poom/Dan: $150.00
> 5th Dan: $300.00
> 6th Dan: $350.00
> 7th Dan: $450.00
> 8th Dan: Free
> 9th Dan: Free
> 10th Dan: Free
> 
> How much does your organization charge?


Those prices seem quite reasonable. Do most clubs add some profit on top or do they just pass on the kukkiwons prices direct to the student? I imagine adding on some extra to cover time, postage etc would be fair. Our school charges $100 for first dan, $150 for 2nd, $200 for third, $250 for 4th, $300 for 5th $350 for 6th and the rest are free,, so pretty much on par with the kukkiwon prices. We must be 12 years old for black belt 1st dan (still too young in my opinion) and 17 before 2nd dan, so the youngest someone could get to 4th (instructor) would be 24 years old.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Those prices seem quite reasonable. Do most clubs add some profit on top or do they just pass on the kukkiwons prices direct to the student? I imagine adding on some extra to cover time, postage etc would be fair. Our school charges $100 for first dan, $150 for 2nd, $200 for third, $250 for 4th, $300 for 5th $350 for 6th and the rest are free,, so pretty much on par with the kukkiwon prices. We must be 12 years old for black belt 1st dan (still too young in my opinion) and 17 before 2nd dan, so the youngest someone could get to 4th (instructor) would be 24 years old.



Where does the certification come from?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Where does the certification come from?


Our GM. We are a large club (over 4000 members) celebrating our 40th year. Left the kukkiwon about 15-20 years ago from what I can gather, but not 100% sure. I didnt know what the kukkiwon was until I started coming here a couple of years ago. I know my instructor (7th dan) has a 1st and possibly a 2nd dan cert from the kukkiwon before we went independent.


----------



## andyjeffries

ralphmcpherson said:


> Those prices seem quite reasonable. Do most clubs add some profit on top or do they just pass on the kukkiwons prices direct to the student? I imagine adding on some extra to cover time, postage etc would be fair



Adding some extra for time or the examiner's expertise in grading and time is fine.  Postage is included however (postage for the certificate from Korea, the outbound application is generally done online now).


----------



## puunui

andyjeffries said:


> Postage is included however (postage for the certificate from Korea, the outbound application is generally done online now).




I don't like online for some reason. I like mailing the applications in.


----------



## StagTown

> To say Kukkiwon issues Black Belts for children is incorrect.<<<<



well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> And in my experience the people who think it has no credibility did not have the toughness to last in it, or try it in the first place (no jewels). But that's just me.



Personally, I think it is jeolousy. Sour grapes. It's easy to criticize something that you don't have (Kukkiwon certification) and don't understand (sparring with your arms at your sides). I used to fight against the changes that are facing Taekwondo, but now I just go with the flow. There are just too many wildly successful dojang out there, a lot of them run by seniors, friends, and juniors. They can laugh and joke all they want about Taekwondo's "demise", while the financially successful sabum laugh too, all the way to the bank, in their bentley.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> Personally, I think it is jeolousy. Sour grapes. It's easy to criticize something that you don't have (Kukkiwon certification) and don't understand (sparring with your arms at your sides). I used to fight against the changes that are facing Taekwondo, but now I just go with the flow. There are just too many wildly successful dojang out there, a lot of them run by seniors, friends, and juniors. They can laugh and joke all they want about Taekwondo's "demise", while the financially successful sabum laugh too, all the way to the bank, in their bentley.


Thats a great philosophy, if all you care about is money. Some of us look beyond the dollars. If I was prepared to compromise my principles and lower my standards my company could double its profit over night. Problem is, I value credibility.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

StagTown said:


> well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.


That couldnt happen where I train. Thats why I value my cert so dearly.


----------



## puunui

StagTown said:


> well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.



Your 27 year old son is not a child.


----------



## StagTown

puunui said:


> Your 27 year old son is not a child.



but he passed the test as a child:wink2:


----------



## puunui

StagTown said:


> but he passed the test as a child:wink2:



And now he's an adult.


----------



## andyjeffries

StagTown said:


> well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.



But if he graded at 16 and was a 1st Dan, then hadn't trained for 15 years you'd have no problem with him being a full dan grade with no further training required?

Either way, it's a test he took a decade and a half ago.

It also depends on your point of view as to what a dan grade means.  I used to believe in the mythical black belt where you suddenly knew everything and were capable of teaching others to be great martial artists.  Then I became an adult.  Then I graded again.  And again (etc).

At the end of the day, 1st Dan is the beginner rung on the dan scale.  Yes, it's a great achievement.  Welcome to the club, etc.  However, looking to newly qualified 1st Dans now I'm sure they're better than I was when I passed at 16 years old (I'm not naïve enough to look back with rose tinted glasses and think I was the greatest thing around, although I know I was training a LOT) but they are just 1st dans.  I can see now how much farther they have to go (and by the same token by looking at my seniors I can see how much farther I have to go).

There is a reason that Article 8 of the Kukkiwon Promotion Regulations doesn't have a minimum age for 1st Poom and there's a reason that they have poom grades at all.  That reason is that children can achieve the level of skill required for the lower dan/poom grades and that adults often over-inflate what they're worth...

Trust in our seniors.  Not all the 9th Dans in the world are standards-lowering money-grabbers, some of them are just more advanced than we are and know things we'll know in the future...


----------



## terryl965

puunui said:


> I don't have any problem with a 19 or 20 year old Kukkiwon 4th Dan. According to the Kukkiwon, 1st through 5th Dan are Masters, so we could have 15 year olds using that term. ATC's instructor is 24 or 25 and I think a Kukkiwon 5th Dan.


 
Yes I know ATC instructor and his family as well. Heck my on son Zachary is a thrid at 16 and can test at 19 for his 4th. But he has grown up inside a dojaang and like ATC instructor he is an exceptionto the rules. I do not promote my sons, I have other GM do that. Even with that being said I still do not know if I fully agree but like I said I completely understand. It is a double edge sword with me and I would imagine it is that way with alot of folks. I appreciate all the feedback and personal opinions of everybody but in the end it is about maturity some will have itand continue some will not and figure they know it all and stop training. Those that stay will help grow TKD those that stop will hinder it because those are the onespeople remember.


----------



## MJS

Admin Note

Folks,

We've already had a few reported posts in this thread.  Lets no have anymore please.  Discussions like this, are bound to ruffle some feathers, and while everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, lets keep them within the framework on the rules, ok?

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Here are the Kukkiwon promotion fees:
> 
> 1st Poom/Dan: $70.00
> 2nd Poom/Dan: $90.00
> 3rd Poom/Dan: $120.00
> 4th Poom/Dan: $150.00
> 5th Dan: $300.00
> 6th Dan: $350.00
> 7th Dan: $450.00
> 8th Dan: Free
> 9th Dan: Free
> 10th Dan: Free
> 
> How much does your organization charge?



At some point we're going to charge a $50 flat fee regardless of the Dan grade.  Of this $50, the cost of printing & shipping will be around $10 (probably a bit less if here in the U.S.), the rest will go to the IKSDA's favorite children's charity which has been through the Elk's Lodge.  So far though, no one has been charged for IKSDA certification that is a current member.  

Thank you for asking.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

StagTown said:


> well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.



This is interesting to know.  So basically, a Poom can be converted to a Dan at the appropriate age with no test beyond the initial Poom test.  It sounds like it is simply an administrative change for an additional fee.  So saying this 6 year old isn't a BB is really just semantics.  He really is and if he's still in TKD (or even if he isn't) he can simply pay a fee and have the certification converted.  

I sounds like this is simply another way for the KKW to make more money off of the same test with very little or no accountability.


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> Personally, I think it is jeolousy..



see? this is just like the snotty chick in high school saying "they hate me cuz i am pretty"

no, they hate her cuz she is a snot......



TKD *is* becomming a joke, why?

the KKW and the WTF

all the 5 year old bb's, the 10K dollar promotions, the 2 year blackbelts, the totally MADE UP HISTORY that anyone can see through

hell, a good friend of mine has a korean master, and they were told "a gift to the master is highly reccomended, last year all the testers pitched in and got him tickets to visit korea"

thats on top of the testing fee

WTH???.......

the olympics? pffffft, it wasnt even televised, so yeah....wtf tkd yippie!!! its like archery!!!!


hell, even CURLING is televised......tkd? NOPE


i get that people who are invested in a certain system will feel a need to defend that system, but COME ON


----------



## Twin Fist

ralphmcpherson said:


> thats a great philosophy, if all you care about is money. Some of us look beyond the dollars. If i was prepared to compromise my principles and lower my standards my company could double its profit over night. Problem is, i value credibility.



qft


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> At 80 million members in 197 nations, Olympic event, it's doing pretty good so far.



As a business it seems to be doing very well.  As a martial art to be taken seriously, well, many people seem to be saying differently.  There is a valid reason TKD is often equated to 'kiddy karate'.  Of those 80 million members, how many are children? How many are still participating in TKD?  These are valid questions.



> I'd much rather be associated with it that some wacky backyard so called SD program.



Do you have any examples of these wacky backyard SD programs?  Just curious why someone teaching from their home would be considered wacky.  I seem to remember many Masters teaching from their home.  I'm unaware of any requirement to have a commercial school to be considered valid.  



> And in my experience the people who think it has no credibility did not  have the toughness to last in it, or try it in the first place (no  jewels). But that's just me.



If a 6 year old can pass the test...how tough can it be?  Seriously.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

andyjeffries said:


> http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110607/SPORTS/706079908/1121/SPORTS21
> 
> Cole Becker, 6, is believed to be the youngest American to ever receive a Kukkiwon black belt. Earning a taekwondo black belt is a significant achievement for people of any age. For Taigon Taekwondo students, it is a three-day process. The first day is a written examination, the second day a test of strength and physical stamina with a 3-mile run, push-ups and sit-ups; and on the third day the display of taekwondo forms and techniques, including sparring.
> 
> Cole Becker had to exhibit the same proficiency as adult students, with two exceptions. Children under 14 break half-inch boards with kicks and chops, while older students break bricks. Also, Cole's written test was actually an oral exam because he is still learning to read and write.
> 
> Cole scored very well on all his tests, including his written (oral) exam. One requirement was that he had to know Korean numbers 1 to 100 as well as many other Korean words.
> 
> The best thing about taekwondo, Cole Becker said, "is that I get to be in the same class as my brother." That would be 8-year-old Seth, also a black belt.
> 
> I don't agree with 6 or 8 year olds earning a first poom (I think 10 would be "early"), but hey, it's not my decision and the Kukkiwon obviously doesn't mind...
> 
> Begin the ranting now...


All of you who criticize KKW/WTF TKD schools for three and four year old black belts, take note of this: the youngest in the US is six, not three or four.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> As a business it seems to be doing very well. As a martial art to be taken seriously, well, many people seem to be saying differently. There is a valid reason TKD is often equated to 'kiddy karate'. Of those 80 million members, how many are children? How many are still participating in TKD? These are valid questions.


My only thing with putting BB's on little kids is that, in the US at least, the perception of a black belt equates to super-fighter in many people's minds. The kiddies are supposed to get a pum belt (black/red). 

But that aside, I simply accept the fact that the MA demographic has shifted in the US from what it was twenty years ago. I'd rather see six year olds excited about their first pum than an X-box live achievement.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Do you have any examples of these wacky backyard SD programs? Just curious why someone teaching from their home would be considered wacky. I seem to remember many Masters teaching from their home. I'm unaware of any requirement to have a commercial school to be considered valid.


Hey, thats me!! I still run classes in the garage and back yard and I'm pretty whacky!  



Kong Soo Do said:


> If a 6 year old can pass the test...how tough can it be? Seriously.


Probably as tough as it is for anyone else. You have eight taegeuk pumse to remember and correctly perform, all of the same strikes and blocks and sparring against opponents in their own age and weight category. The biggest difference that I see in childrens tests is with breaking; I frequently see thinner and/or fewer boards used.

Is it the equivalent to an adult test? Probably not. But the rank is not equivalent either. Anyway, I have more respect for a gung ho child than I do for an adult who mails it in, something that I have seen many times over the years.

Daniel


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Is it the equivalent to an adult test?  Probably not.  But the rank is not equivalent either.
> 
> Daniel





> Probably as tough as it is for anyone else. You have eight taegeuk pumse  to remember and correctly perform, all of the same strikes and blocks  and sparring against opponents in their own age and weight category. The  biggest difference that I see in childrens tests is with breaking; I  frequently see thinner and/or fewer boards used.



But Daniel, let's take a close look at this for a moment please.  Is it equivalent to an adult test?  According to the article, the only difference was the written test was given orally since he can't write yet.  And I think it said the boards were a little thinner.  But everything else was the same.  So it wasn't really that far removed from an adult test.

Now the cert.  This boy can have his cert converted over to an 'adult' BB with no additional training and an additional fee. So this test WAS his BB test.  Let's all be honest about this for a moment.  For a few bucks more at age 15 or so the cert may be revised, but he's already done what he was required to do.  This Poom to Dan conversion is another avenue of making money off the same test.  That is all it is so let's be honest about it in this discussion.  

The kid took a BB test, he passed a BB test, he wears a BB....he's now a KKW TKD BB the same as any KKW TKD BB on this board.  He's now in your ranks.  The fact that he (or his dad) will have to pay more bucks in ten years to get it 'converted' is a money making tactic on behalf of the KKW.


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> This Poom to Dan conversion is another avenue of making money off the same test.  That is all it is so let's be honest about it in this discussion.  The fact that he (or his dad) will have to pay more bucks in ten years to get it 'converted' is a money making tactic on behalf of the KKW.



You're serious?

You're considering the token amount for converting a poom->dan certificate (likely to be the same as a re-issue fee $10) a "money making tactic".  They aren't saying it's required, then aren't enforcing it.  They're saying "if you like, you can change the certificate when you turn 15/16, just send us a minimal amount to cover the new paper, our time in printing/sending it and postage from Korea".  If you're happy keeping a poom certificate until your next promotion, don't bother...

Besides, come on, we're talking about an optional $10 charge - this is hardly the Kukkiwon strongarming people to make huge sums from converting poom to dan.

If people choose not to pay to change the certificate, they don't need to.  Just apply for the next higher dan on their next promotion.


----------



## Twin Fist

*shudder*


----------



## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> *shudder*



How about some expansion? Onomatopoeia is not really a valid point after all...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> But Daniel, let's take a close look at this for a moment please. Is it equivalent to an adult test? According to the article, the only difference was the written test was given orally since he can't write yet. And I think it said the boards were a little thinner. But everything else was the same. So it wasn't really that far removed from an adult test.


That is about what I said. I didn't say that a child's test is far removed, but that the two probably are not equal. However, for the child, the test is likely just as tough as it is for the adult.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Now the cert. This boy can have his cert converted over to an 'adult' BB *with no additional training and an additional fee*. So this test WAS his BB test. Let's all be honest about this for a moment. For a few bucks more at age 15 or so the cert may be revised, but he's already done what he was required to do. This Poom to Dan conversion is another avenue of making money off the same test. That is all it is so let's be honest about it in this discussion.


So if your first paragraph is accurate, then really, who cares? 

But as for being honest, or perhaps accurate is a better way to put it, if the kid quits now that he has the belt, he isn't going to be going back in at age fifteen with zero additional training just to get it converted. I have no idea whether or not most school owners would do this for a kid with almost a decade long cessation of training.

Should he stick with it, he probably will never have his first pum converted; Assuming he sticks with it and tests at the minimum time in grade requiements, he'd be testing for second at seven and third pum at ten. Fourth pum requires the testor to be eighteen. If the kid sticks with it for five more years and is intending to continue, he *might* have his third pum converted, though I don't really see much motivation for doing so. 

If he sticks with it to eighteen, he can test for his fourth pum. At that point, you have a student who has trained continuously from the age of six and is now in his prime. If he were a football player, nobody would be deriding his childhood training.

If he sticks with it into his twenties, I can see getting his fourth pum converted (not sure what the minimum age for a fourth dan is) and if he continues beyond that, fifth would be his first out and out dan test.

If he quits between ten and fifteen, again, it is unlikely that his third pum will ever be converted: he most likely will have a solid black belt with three stripes on it and even more likely, mom, dad and kid have no idea that there is even a difference between a pum and a dan. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> The kid took a BB test,


No, he took a _first pum_ test, for which he was most likely awarded a black belt. In theory, a weird school could issue a pink belt. However, it is_ supposed_ to be a black/red belt. The pum dobok is also different from a yudanja dobok; the collar is black and red instead of solid black.



Kong Soo Do said:


> he passed a BB test, he wears a BB....he's now a KKW TKD BB the same as any KKW TKD BB on this board. *He's now in your ranks.*


Congrats to him! 



Kong Soo Do said:


> The fact that he (or his dad) will have to pay more bucks in ten years to get it 'converted' is a money making tactic on behalf of the KKW.


Don't get hung up on the conversion. It really isn't much of a factor. If a kid sticks with it, they'll just be testing for dans when they are of the appropriate age. Also, most kids with a first pum are not that young, usually between ten and twelve, and if they stick around for three to five years after their first pum, they'll be testing for thrid dan. No conversions needed.

If they don't stick with it, as I said earlier, neither the kid nor the parents likely know the difference between a pum and a dan. But even if they did, they probably don't care: if the boy has a black belt, and if a black belt was his goal, then that goal has been achieved. Time to move on to piano lesons.

As far as the Kukkiwon making money, to be honest, their fees are pretty minimal. They don't charge an association fee, so aside from testing fees, they really have no other means of generating regular income. Given that the Kukkiwon does not track geub grades, they make nothing on colored belt, so the monetary element is really pretty inconsequential.

By contrast, many orgs have just as many registration and/or testing fees and charge an additional annual membership fee. 

Usually, its the school, not the org, that is hitting the student up for extra fees.

Ultimately, if you want to be ranked as a yudanja in a large organization, expect to pay a filing fee. If you don't care about that, then it is a non issue. 

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel is right about this, the KKW itself doesnt charge much

there is a culture among KKW masters to charge outlandishly high prices for stuff.

we have all heard the horror stories.


----------



## Twin Fist

ETinCYQX said:


> How about some expansion? Onomatopoeia is not really a valid point after all...



the fact that one can, with NO TRAINING IN BETWEEN, get a poom cert he got at 12 converted to an adult cert at 18, and it is considered legit "everywhere in the world" is a shame


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> Daniel is right about this, the KKW itself doesnt charge much
> 
> there is a culture among KKW masters to charge outlandishly high prices for stuff.
> 
> we have all heard the horror stories.


And in some cases, experienced them.  

Always a real kick in the pants to pay 500.00 for a first dan only to find out that the registration fee is only seventy dollars and that that cool dobok you got only costs the school about thirty bucks and that an embroidered black belt can be had for fifteen bucks cost to the school.

Daniel


----------



## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> the fact that one can, with NO TRAINING IN BETWEEN, get a poom cert he got at 12 converted to an adult cert at 18, and it is considered legit "everywhere in the world" is a shame



It's not my favorite policy either.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> the fact that one can, with NO TRAINING IN BETWEEN, get a poom cert he got at 12 converted to an adult cert at 18, and it is considered legit "everywhere in the world" is a shame


Do people *actually* do this though?  

I really don't think that parents of kids who quit at twelve and completely stop training camp out waiting for their kid to come of age just so that they can convert the grade.

I'd be willing to bet a Chipotle burrito that once the kid has a black belt, mom and dad don't pay any attention to the pum vs. dan distinction and if little Johnny quits after getting said belt, mom and dad still say 'Johnny has a black belt.'

The fact is that no system is bulletproof with regards to shennanigans.  If there is a way to game the system, and there almost always is, then someone will find it, but they are the minority.  

Anyway, twelve year old first pums magically converting to first dan years after quitting is really a non issue.  

Guys who proclaim themselves ninth dan and either fake their credentials and register themselves with a papermill and then start teaching?  That's an actual issue.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

we do know that people have, after sitting out for years, applied for skip dan promotion and gotten them through the kkw.....


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> we do know that people have, after sitting out for years, applied for skip dan promotion and gotten them through the kkw.....


Similar but different issue. Such people will of course be grouped in with people of the same rank should they decide to compete. They will either rise to the occasion or they will not.

Organizational rank gymnastics are a byproduct of having an organization with ranks. It is what it is. 

Not crazy about it, but on the other hand, it isn't something that bothers me.  Ultimately, you either have the skill or you do not.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

Twin Fist said:


> the fact that one can, with NO TRAINING IN BETWEEN, get a poom cert he got at 12 converted to an adult cert at 18, and it is considered legit "everywhere in the world" is a shame


 
This I completely agree with, every single poom should be required to re-test at 18 for a dan rank. I know at my school I re-test all juniors at 18 before I send off for a dan rank. I and my parents know it is not required except from me, but I have never recieved any flack from any of them. I guess I should mention I do not charge for the additional test at 18, they just need to learn some more self defense and be able to explain the techniques from the set of poomsae and one steps. 

See TF we do agree on alot of issue's and dis-agree on others.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

andyjeffries said:


> You're serious?
> 
> If people choose not to pay to change the certificate, they don't need to.  Just apply for the next higher dan on their next promotion.



Yes sir, I'm very serious.  

What does the school charge in addition to the KKW surcharge (if anything)?  And if, as you state, you don't really need it...why bother?  And, if as you state, you don't need it...then it is just as valid as a Dan cert.  Thus, while one can say it isn't a 'BB', it really is because it in effect counts for one in every way.

With respect.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;

If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...

If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...

If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....

If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...

If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....

If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...

Then why do you continue to utilize them?  Do you 'need' them for some reason?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;


Second dan KKW, higher dojang grade.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...


I don't disagree with them issuing the pum rank.  I disagree with the practice that individuals schools engage in of issing a black belt with a pum grade, but that is a school level issue, not an org issue.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test......


?  Please rephrase this or clarify it.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master.......


I don't have any problem with that.  I can tell you if a supposed 'sword' master is for real after watching him or her draw the blade, perform one or two cuts, and resheath the blade.  I have no doubt that a KKW gudan can tell from less than a couple of forms and a minute of sparring if the candidate is master level.

The lengthier tests are usually meant to impart a lesson to the student; their instructors already know that they have the skills.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks......


No opinion: I think that such things need to be looked at on a case by case basis.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization.......


This is about the only thing on the list that I am critical of.  It isn't so much that they have revised it, but more that they have presented it in a way that glosses over Japanese influences and implies a connection with pre-modern KMA.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices......


Either they have or they haven't.  Opinion should not enter the picture.  I am not aware that the organization has "allowed" the practice.  You are either ranked through them or you are not.  If Master Gwae Jang Gaen leaves Korea as a third dan and thirty six hours later is submitting an application for his sixth dan, it isn't going to happen.  

If Master Gwae Jang Gaen leaves Korea as a third dan and thirty six hours later is faking his credentials, the Kukkiwon website will still list him as a third dan.  Since there is no school membership, the Kukkiwon has no recourse unless the man has forged a Kukkiwon certificate.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Then why do you continue to utilize them? Do you 'need' them for some reason?


I am ranked through them, but that is as far as it goes at this point.  I run a hapkdio and kumdo studio, so I actually do not utilize them.

Daniel


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Second dan KKW, higher dojang grade.
> 
> 
> I don't disagree with them issuing the pum rank.  I disagree with the practice that individuals schools engage in of issing a black belt with a pum grade, but that is a school level issue, not an org issue.
> 
> 
> ?  Please rephrase this or clarify it.
> 
> 
> I don't have any problem with that.  I can tell you if a supposed 'sword' master is for real after watching him or her draw the blade, perform one or two cuts, and resheath the blade.  I have no doubt that a KKW gudan can tell from less than a couple of forms and a minute of sparring if the candidate is master level.
> 
> The lengthier tests are usually meant to impart a lesson to the student; their instructors already know that they have the skills.
> 
> 
> No opinion: I think that such things need to be looked at on a case by case basis.
> 
> 
> This is about the only thing on the list that I am critical of.  It isn't so much that they have revised it, but more that they have presented it in a way that glosses over Japanese influences and implies a connection with pre-modern KMA.
> 
> 
> Either they have or they haven't.  Opinion should not enter the picture.  I am not aware that the organization has "allowed" the practice.  You are either ranked through them or you are not.  If Master Gwae Jang Gaen leaves Korea as a third dan and thirty six hours later is submitting an application for his sixth dan, it isn't going to happen.
> 
> If Master Gwae Jang Gaen leaves Korea as a third dan and thirty six hours later is faking his credentials, the Kukkiwon website will still list him as a third dan.  Since there is no school membership, the Kukkiwon has no recourse unless the man has forged a Kukkiwon certificate.
> 
> 
> I am ranked through them, but that is as far as it goes at this point.  I run a hapkdio and kumdo studio, so I actually do not utilize them.
> 
> Daniel



Thank you Daniel.  Keep in mind that these are general questions based on comments I've read in this and other threads that members have expressed concern towards.


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;
> 
> 1. If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...
> 
> 2. If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...
> 
> 3. If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....
> 
> 4. If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...
> 
> 5. If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....
> 
> 6. If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...
> 
> 7.Then why do you continue to utilize them?  Do you 'need' them for some reason?



I've added numbers in to make it easier to reply.

1) I don't care if the KKW issues poom grades to any age.  There has to be a certain amount of trust in a group that big, if it's abused then it doesn't devalue my achievements in any way.

2) I think that they will have had to be approved to test by a KKW 4th Dan or above, if they aren't physically required to test then it's just the same as accepting the 4th Dan's recommendation anyway.  Also, 1st-3rd Dan are low ranks anyway so it doesn't really matter...

3) I agree with Daniel's point of view completely.  How worthy is the examiner of their grade if they require an extensive test to be able to judge a candidate's skill.  As has been pointed out, seniors often judge people based on noonchi which can really be described as inner spirit.  They tell based on how you move/hold yourself/behave what level you're at.  If they can't judge from a couple of minutes watching, they really shouldn't be testing others...

4) I don't mind how many ranks people skip.  I think that people should hold the rank that they are worth.  Whether they are worth it or not is a personal (how far along are they in their journey) type of question, but what rank people hold doesn't devalue my rank or achievements.  _Full disclosure:_ I've received a skip dan (of one dan grade) and my grandmaster felt I was worth that or above (but due to KKW rules could only skip me one grade) so I wasn't going to tell him that he was an incapable judge (see point 3).  I had enough time in grade.

5) I think the KKW puts history in a favourable light.  Like it or not the Korean people often have an issue with Japanese (due to the occupation) so it's unrealistic to think that any information put out by the country regarding their national sport will put one of their previous enemies in a favourable light.

6) I think the KKW sticks by it's rules in 99% of cases and if they choose to bend their rules, then it's their right.  As it's run by people much more senior than me I'm happy to trust their judgement...  I don't know the full facts of why.

7) I choose to support them because it gives me a sense of community.  I feel that someone also graded in Kukki-Taekwondo is likely to have similar practices to me.  While my X Dan may not equate exactly to their Y Day, we're likely doing the same stuff so we can practice together.  My seniors have KKW rank and I'll give KKW rank to my students/juniors.

While I'm only middle rank (I guess), I think all the questions show a position where people are caught up in rank.  Taekwondo for me is a personal journey of improvement.  There are people ahead of me who help me along and there are people behind me who I help.  Exactly how far people are ahead or behind is fairly irrelevant/unimportant.


----------



## terryl965

Kong Soo Do said:


> Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...
> 
> _I do not have a problem with poom belts, I have a problem with them just changing over to a dan rank without another test. I choose to give another one myself at 18 before re-sending for there dan rank._
> 
> If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...
> 
> _I also believe instructor should do the right thing when testing, but we know how that turns out_
> 
> If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....
> 
> _Well I never had that happen at any of my test so I have no opinion_.
> 
> If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...
> 
> _I believe you need to be tested at all level but again that is me and not them_
> 
> If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....
> 
> _Well of course but like alot of good businesses out there they all have stories_
> 
> If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...
> 
> _That has been the rumors since the 60's and 70's_
> 
> Then why do you continue to utilize them? Do you 'need' them for some reason?


 
_Creature of habit, my instructr did so I do the same. Also you need a KKW for certain high level athlete to compete_


----------



## troubleenuf

I think that thats 90% of us.  We were taught that Kukkiwon was "it" so we continue to believe it even though the evidence that we have been shown in the past has shown that the certification dosnt actually do anything for us.  
  As far as needing it to compete, that is only for international competition if an athlete makes it that far.  
  I went to giving students a choice.  I used to apply for 50 to 60 Kukkiwons a year.  Now maybe 4 to 6 a year.  



terryl965 said:


> _Creature of habit, my instructr did so I do the same. Also you need a KKW for certain high level athlete to compete_


----------



## ETinCYQX

Again, just the way I see things today. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;
> 
> If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...
> 
> *I wouldn't have done it but I don't have a big problem with it. I blame the instructor.*
> 
> If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...
> 
> *That doesn't bother me.*
> 
> If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....
> 
> *Again, doesn't bother me. IMO whoever asks you to grade is responsible for thinking you know your stuff*
> 
> If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...
> 
> *Very rare as far as I can tell. *
> 
> If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....
> 
> If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...
> 
> Then why do you continue to utilize them?  Do you 'need' them for some reason?
> 
> *Simple, I like to compete and the amount of resources KKW affiliation provides me with around here is unparalleled.*


----------



## msmitht

Twin Fist said:


> see? this is just like the snotty chick in high school saying "they hate me cuz i am pretty"
> 
> no, they hate her cuz she is a snot......
> 
> 
> 
> TKD *is* becomming a joke, why?
> 
> the KKW and the WTF
> 
> all the 5 year old bb's, the 10K dollar promotions, the 2 year blackbelts, the totally MADE UP HISTORY that anyone can see through
> 
> hell, a good friend of mine has a korean master, and they were told "a gift to the master is highly reccomended, last year all the testers pitched in and got him tickets to visit korea"
> 
> thats on top of the testing fee
> 
> WTH???.......
> 
> the olympics? pffffft, it wasnt even televised, so yeah....wtf tkd yippie!!! its like archery!!!!
> 
> 
> hell, even CURLING is televised......tkd? NOPE
> 
> 
> i get that people who are invested in a certain system will feel a need to defend that system, but COME ON



I normally agree with you....but,
Most of the above are american tkd issues. In korea they treat tkd like a sport. Poom grade, and they do wear POOM, is earned in 1-2 years. Most do not continue. Tkd history is horrible in the us. In korea they are realistic. They admit the karate connection, but they made many changes that have allowed tkd to become unique. Anyone who came here before 1973, and those who learned from them, is teaching something that does not exist in korea today.
Instructors can charge what they want (I charge 250) for promotions. If the student is dumb enough to pay ten grand then it is their loss.
Do I think a 6 year old should be 1st poom? I would have to see them on the mat to know. I would hope that the belt is POOM and not black. 
My gm was strict. No black belt till 16. Then again, he was old school.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

troubleenuf said:


> I think that thats 90% of us. We were taught that Kukkiwon was "it" so we continue to believe it even though the evidence that we have been shown in the past has shown that the certification dosnt actually do anything for us.
> As far as needing it to compete, that is only for international competition if an athlete makes it that far.
> I went to giving students a choice. I used to apply for 50 to 60 Kukkiwons a year. Now maybe 4 to 6 a year.


 
Thank you for this post.  And thank you everyone for your posts as well.  It has been interesting and educational.


----------



## msmitht

terryl965 said:


> _Creature of habit, my instructr did so I do the same. Also you need a KKW for certain high level athlete to compete_



Not true. You do not need a kkw to compete in local, state, nat qualifier or nationals. The kkw cert is required to compete at wtf world championships, the olympic games and their qualifying events. Truth be told several competitors @bejing in 2008 did not have kkw certs (france and spain).


----------



## terryl965

msmitht said:


> Not true. You do not need a kkw to compete in local, state, nat qualifier or nationals. The kkw cert is required to compete at wtf world championships, the olympic games and their qualifying events. Truth be told several competitors @bejing in 2008 did not have kkw certs (france and spain).


 
That is what I was saying only for those elites going for certain events


----------



## troubleenuf

There was some discussion a while back why someone in the US had to be certified by a foreign country represent their own country?  



msmitht said:


> Not true. You do not need a kkw to compete in local, state, nat qualifier or nationals. The kkw cert is required to compete at wtf world championships, the olympic games and their qualifying events. Truth be told several competitors @bejing in 2008 did not have kkw certs (france and spain).


----------



## Kong Soo Do

> Originally Posted by *puunui*
> 
> 
> _Personally, I think it is jeolousy. Sour grapes. It's easy to criticize something that you don't have (Kukkiwon certification) and don't understand (sparring with your arms at your sides). I used to fight against the changes that are facing Taekwondo, but now I just go with the flow. There are just too many wildly successful dojang out there, a lot of them run by seniors, friends, and juniors. They can laugh and joke all they want about Taekwondo's "demise", while the financially successful sabum laugh too, all the way to the bank, in their *bentley*._


 


ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats a great philosophy, if all you care about is money. Some of us look beyond the dollars. If I was prepared to compromise my principles and lower my standards my company could double its profit over night. Problem is, I value credibility.


 
Not all the blame can be put on the greedy instructor willing to compromise priciples.  Some of the blame is on the individual, or in some cases the parent(s) that are willing to pay.  No one is forcing them.   As they say, a fool and his money....


----------



## Archtkd

Kong Soo Do said:


> Not all the blame can be put on the greedy instructor willing to compromise priciples. Some of the blame is on the individual, or in some cases the parent(s) that are willing to pay. No one is forcing them. As they say, a fool and his money....


 
Here we can agree completely.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Kong Soo Do said:


> Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;
> 
> If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...
> 
> If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...
> 
> If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....
> 
> If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...
> 
> If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....
> 
> If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...
> 
> Then why do you continue to utilize them?  Do you 'need' them for some reason?


I can relate to this. Our GM stayed with the kukkiwon for as long a he could but eventually he just had to leave for many of the reasons you stated. He eventually didnt see the point in supporting an org that was making decisions he didnt agree with. I personally dont think the kukkiwon is much better or worse than most large orgs. What I find funny is that many people with kukkiwon certificates think that somehow their rank is of more importance/significance or has more credibility because they have a "kukkiwon black belt". But when I hear about all the kiddie black belts and skip dans and poom belts (which really are just bb anyway) and the fact that anyone over a certain rank can just promote anyone and the kukkiwon will just stamp the cert and the outlandish costs for promotions etc etc , it just makes me wonder what is so special about the kukkiwon. Some here would say Im 'jelous', but realistically I train at a club that does none of the above and actually makes it "harder" to get a black belt so why would I be jelous of not having a cert from an org that has easier standards? I just dont get it. As I say, the kukkiwon is probably no better or worse than a lot of large orgs except they manage to brainwash people into thinking their rank has extra credibility despite being easier to get. Just makes no sense to me at all. Surely the harder something is to get the more credibility it has, and the easier something is to obtain the less credibility it has. At least thats how it works with most other things in life.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

troubleenuf said:


> I think that thats 90% of us.  We were taught that Kukkiwon was "it" so we continue to believe it even though the evidence that we have been shown in the past has shown that the certification dosnt actually do anything for us.
> As far as needing it to compete, that is only for international competition if an athlete makes it that far.
> I went to giving students a choice.  I used to apply for 50 to 60 Kukkiwons a year.  Now maybe 4 to 6 a year.


Exactly, and a lot of clubs I know of are ceasing their involvment because they are realising that the cert doesnt actually do anything for them. When mum and dad put little johnny into tkd they usually have no idea what the kukkiwon actually is and unless little johnny wants to go to the olympics the cert is of little to no value. I believe our club went through a 'transition phase' where you got our club cert and had the option of also getting a kukkiwon one, eventually no one asked for the kukkiwon one as they didnt see any need for it and it slowly became obsolete.


----------



## troubleenuf

The thing you have to remember is that 30 years ago the Kukkiwon did have credibility.  But over the years that credibility has been spread pretty thin.  They have no oversight.  None.  You cant deny it.  They have standards, yes, but they are minimal and without oversight they are meaningless.  I would love to say that a Kukkiwon black belt meant what it used to mean.  But in reality it does not.  So you have many of the "old guard" standing their ground and supporting the Kukkiwon because thats what they were taught and its easier to stand by it than to step back and take a real look at what it truly is.  I know... Im one of them and I still have a hard time with it.  
In todays world you have to take each person that walks in the door and check their ability no matter what they say their certification is.  Its unfortunate but true.  Like it or not.




ralphmcpherson said:


> I can relate to this. Our GM stayed with the kukkiwon for as long a he could but eventually he just had to leave for many of the reasons you stated. He eventually didnt see the point in supporting an org that was making decisions he didnt agree with. I personally dont think the kukkiwon is much better or worse than most large orgs. What I find funny is that many people with kukkiwon certificates think that somehow their rank is of more importance/significance or has more credibility because they have a "kukkiwon black belt". But when I hear about all the kiddie black belts and skip dans and poom belts (which really are just bb anyway) and the fact that anyone over a certain rank can just promote anyone and the kukkiwon will just stamp the cert and the outlandish costs for promotions etc etc , it just makes me wonder what is so special about the kukkiwon. Some here would say Im 'jelous', but realistically I train at a club that does none of the above and actually makes it "harder" to get a black belt so why would I be jelous of not having a cert from an org that has easier standards? I just dont get it. As I say, the kukkiwon is probably no better or worse than a lot of large orgs except they manage to brainwash people into thinking their rank has extra credibility despite being easier to get. Just makes no sense to me at all. Surely the harder something is to get the more credibility it has, and the easier something is to obtain the less credibility it has. At least thats how it works with most other things in life.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

msmitht said:


> Not true. You do not need a kkw to compete in local, state, nat qualifier or nationals. The kkw cert is required to compete at wtf world championships, the olympic games and their qualifying events. Truth be told several competitors @bejing in 2008 did not have kkw certs (france and spain).


Very interesting. It seems very strange to me that you need a kukki cert to compete in certain events. As far as Im concerned, if someone shows up to compete, and fights within the ruleset then I couldnt care less where they got their black belt. Again, it stinks of someone trying to make money. As somebody has said previously on this subject, I can go and compete in a number of marathons, get good results and roll up and compete in the olympics, I dont need to be a member of a certain marathon running org, if Im good enough I can compete. Same goes for most sports, not just olympic ones.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

troubleenuf said:


> The thing you have to remember is that 30 years ago the Kukkiwon did have credibility.  But over the years that credibility has been spread pretty thin.  They have no oversight.  None.  You cant deny it.  They have standards, yes, but they are minimal and without oversight they are meaningless.  I would love to say that a Kukkiwon black belt meant what it used to mean.  But in reality it does not.  So you have many of the "old guard" standing their ground and supporting the Kukkiwon because thats what they were taught and its easier to stand by it than to step back and take a real look at what it truly is.  I know... Im one of them and I still have a hard time with it.
> In todays world you have to take each person that walks in the door and check their ability no matter what they say their certification is.  Its unfortunate but true.  Like it or not.


That is almost word for word what my original instructor told me when I asked about the kukkiwon. I remember in primary school I lived in the same street as our GM. I didnt do tkd way back then but everyone in our area knew of our GM and his reputation. I remember he would go back to korea for promotion from the kukkiwon and it was a major thing in our community and he was very proud of his achievment as he obviously held the kukkiwon in high regard. So I can certainly see that "back in the day" the kukkiwon had credibility but as you say, these days its credibility has been spread very thin.


----------



## Thesemindz

For me, karate means more than just memorizing the techniques, and children don't have the physical body that they will have as adults. Until they do, I don't consider them capable of truly learning or understanding karate, or training to the degree required to achieve a black belt.

Now, I say that, but I didn't have to run three miles. But I did have to battle three trained karate fighters simultaneously. I didn't have to memorize a hundred words in a foreign language. But I did have to memorize over a hundred fighting techniques. I didn't have to break boards or bricks, but we did practice our techniques on the heavy bag with full force and on the body with sufficient force to injure our training partners if they didn't properly protect themselves.

It's hard for me to see how a six year old could earn a black belt in the kind of hard fighting karate that I teach. I don't think he'd be physically, mentally, or emotionally mature enough to handle the training. That's why our child students don't get the same kind of training as our adult students. They are more like students-in-training. They are learning how to learn real karate someday. Honestly, the adult training is so rigorous that I wouldn't feel comfortable subjecting children to it. I try to be careful how much striking and grappling I do with children, especially at more advanced levels of intensity. Their little bodies are still growing and I don't want to cause them life changing permanent injury by stressing their joints or bodies to severely. 

It doesn't really matter anyway. There's no standard for "black belt." It only has any real meaning to the instructor who hands it out and the student who receives it. No one else knows what went in to earning it.

I can't say the six year old didn't deserve it. I can say I wouldn't award a black belt to a six year old. I wouldn't award a black belt to anyone who wasn't at least approaching physical maturity. I think that's too important to truly understanding techniques. But that's me.


-Rob


----------



## ralphmcpherson

I know when I teach kids that they absorb the material very differently to adults. Adults dont just accept anything "because thats the way it is", they want to know why, how, when etc , they want to understand the bio mechanics of what they are learning and want to know why things are done a certain way. Kids tend to just accept things and are less curious as to why? I see this really come into play during self defence techs where adults can generally pool their knowledge together and work out why a tech isnt working or how to improve it, whereas with children if its not working they tend to just ask for help without really thinking it through. Basically, adults can apply the knowledge they've learnt better than kids.


----------



## Master Dan

terryl965 said:


> To puunui did she win double gold or did she have nobody and was awarded double gold?
> 
> I have had tag alongs as well but never have I promoted anybody to a poom before 9, they simply did not test to much and was given ample time to grow and mature. I am not saying some cannot get there but the whole thing at six is just bad in my opinion. I have three sons that would train everyday except Sunday and none of them was given a poom until they was 9-10 and they grew up inside a dojaang. I hope the KKW and instructor see what direction and message they are sending to the general public.


 
Terry I agree but while some people here are using this as an oportunity to bash KKW and TKD does anyone remember the national news of a monkey Chimpanzee being given a Black Belt in Karate they even showed him training the DoJo with the master who awarded him the belt. Young children can be very cute and proficient on many levels but 8 years old is considered the age of minimal accountability and reason with many stages to age 26 before 8 it can be monkey see monkey do with hopefully all positive outcomes.

Regardless the monkey getting a Black Belt did not reflect on Karate or the organization in general but instead the instructors judgment in seriously considering a monkey a true Black Belt?

Honorary Black Belts are given for many purposes and BB to people/beginers over 70 who could not possibly perform at the same level of more youthfull students but is still given consideration for effort? Belts hold up pants and certificates are for walls the street determines fact from fiction that said at least I would hope this little 6 year old would be 400% less likely to be a child abducted or abused then the 6 year old that had never trained. Sad to say there are many KKW bb holders of a variety of ages that could be less proficient than this 6 year old but that said it still begs the question of the motivation to advance to Poom at such a young age however Poom is not 1st Dan they must wait untill 15 but if this becomes a norm and time in rank applied then we could start seeing 4th Dan or higher at 15? is this a race to capture market share? Nothing seems to have changed since the early  70's money corupts lots of money absolutely corupts?


----------



## mastercole

(for some reason I difficultly spacing this, I hope it comes on in readable format)

Since we are looking at very large, public & social Taekwondo organization (s) and their possible negatives, let's look at another hypothetical but possible scenario

I am sure that none of us on this board fall into such a hypothetical category. You don't have to be with the greater Taekwondo movement, but, the question becomes, what are you actually with?

We know that most Asian/Oriental martial arts stress that the individual grow. White belt student grows into black belt student, grows into instructor, coach, trainer, referee or just good senior & mentor, grows into leader within local Taekwondo, then international Taekwondo, within sports, within the community and within the world.  Through all this is hopefully the goal to understanding the self and then others, helping others, providing opportunities for other, etc is desirable.

However, let's pretend there are a group of Taekwondo practitioners who spun off from the world's largest, public & social Taekwondo organizations:

Here is their hypothetical situaiton 

- made it only part way through Taekwondo growth phase 
- did not developed a traditional, respectful, long lasting relationship with their instructor
- though they strive to be a part of the Asian/Oriental martial arts mystic, when they encountered the culture it feels to foreign and awkward, they fail to grasp it or adapt
- their relationship with their instructor and big seniors becomes fractured and ends, in Taekwondo culture this means any relationship in a traditional sense with Taekwondo ends 

This creates a problem for this hypothetical group

One, because Taekwondo culture is Korean culture, a culture centered on relationships between junior, senior and peer practitioners.  Puunui can tell you that it is amazing how long, and how healthy these relationships can be.

Two, because they now cut off their access to learning more about technique, training, etc, so learning stops where their relationship stops

Here is the sad path this hypothetical group (not naming any group) might follow:

- eventually no one in the greater social Taekwondo world is paying attention to them

- the only relationship they had to the international Taekwondo world, is gone

- they feel outcast from the main stream pubic & social structure of Taekwondo

- now few people actually know them, or even who they are. In a culture where everything is based on who you are related to, they are an unknown entity 

- they search out and find a handful of like minded people to cling to, they form a "committee" of all members of the group, usually 4 or 5, like, "The Gang of Five"

- since real learning about Taekwondo stopped, they begin to fabricate everything from history, stories, personal background, training methods and the reasoning behind it all but the fact is, their skills do not advance, regressing over from time being isolated

- they have no goal training at, or, actual experience interacting with the top educators of Taekwondo at public, large populous Taekwondo institutions

- they have no goal training at, or, actual experience at mixing in with the international Taekwondo community at Hanmadang, World Expo, Taekwondo Park, etc

- they have no goal participating in, or, actual experience at a World level WTF event, like World Championships, or the Olympics

- they never understand the value and relationship of international sports and world peace and Taekwondo's role and achievement in that world movement

after time, having never reached their full potential in Taekwondo they begin to turn on their former martial art and it's practitioners, all 80,000,000 of them, they fill with hate and begin to act with hate

This hypothetical group shuns the real world of Taekwondo and recluses into their own sterile world of self created dogma

- they strive for recognition and kudos as the leader of their small, isolated group

- leadership makes repetitious statements on how bad the mainstream and try to get others to repeat it, so they begin to believe it

- their hidden agenda becomes "Isolation, Separation & Alienation" from the mainstream

- they isolate their handful of students from even the general population in their town, teaching them out of their bathroom or garage, or somewhere hidden away from the public eye, indoctrinating them with their hate filled propaganda

- The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the a viable system for change that will solve old problems or the larger organizations ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to indoctrination and propaganda discourage their participation in with the greater pool of people in their activity, and stunts their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader

- the group is no longer accountable to any main stream authority in their martial art

- the group leadership has the special mission of trying to "save" practitioners from the wrongs of the mainstream

- leadership claims connection to older, more traditional roots and values of the past

- the group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society

- they publish their negative assessment of the mainstream group attempting to recruit others with broken relationships

It is important to maintain relationships.  With your family, friends, associates, etc.


----------



## Master Dan

ralphmcpherson said:


> I can relate to this. Our GM stayed with the kukkiwon for as long a he could but eventually he just had to leave for many of the reasons you stated. He eventually didnt see the point in supporting an org that was making decisions he didnt agree with. I personally dont think the kukkiwon is much better or worse than most large orgs. What I find funny is that many people with kukkiwon certificates think that somehow their rank is of more importance/significance or has more credibility because they have a "kukkiwon black belt". But when I hear about all the kiddie black belts and skip dans and poom belts (which really are just bb anyway) and the fact that anyone over a certain rank can just promote anyone and the kukkiwon will just stamp the cert and the outlandish costs for promotions etc etc , it just makes me wonder what is so special about the kukkiwon. Some here would say Im 'jelous', but realistically I train at a club that does none of the above and actually makes it "harder" to get a black belt so why would I be jelous of not having a cert from an org that has easier standards? I just dont get it. As I say, the kukkiwon is probably no better or worse than a lot of large orgs except they manage to brainwash people into thinking their rank has extra credibility despite being easier to get. Just makes no sense to me at all. Surely the harder something is to get the more credibility it has, and the easier something is to obtain the less credibility it has. At least thats how it works with most other things in life.


 
Think of it as an Elks Lodge you join and stay for the fraternal reasons as well and the many things it has to offer once granted entrance to the facility. Also it gives a direct tie to the origins of the art with support and travel to Korea directly beyond what you get with just a one person perspective. Everyone seems to leave the A out of MA there should be a creative, cultural and artistic side to any indiginous MA and even after all the politics money and other issues asside you get that from a global organization a feeling of belonging more than aaaah your Kung Fu no good. Some people are very lucky to part of a single Dojang or Dojo that gives them all that and others progress to a national or global organization but for me its about family being part of it for better or worse because you love them and they love you. I think the high presure high marketing dojang business only don't get involved or invested in your students beyond a financial interest is a load of crap but in a free market system some one will buy it?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

troubleenuf said:


> The thing you have to remember is that 30 years ago the Kukkiwon did have credibility.  But over the years that credibility has been spread pretty thin.  They have no oversight.  None.  You cant deny it.  They have standards, yes, but they are minimal and without oversight they are meaningless.  I would love to say that a Kukkiwon black belt meant what it used to mean.  But in reality it does not.  So you have many of the "old guard" standing their ground and supporting the Kukkiwon because thats what they were taught and its easier to stand by it than to step back and take a real look at what it truly is.  I know... Im one of them and I still have a hard time with it.
> In todays world you have to take each person that walks in the door and check their ability no matter what they say their certification is.  Its unfortunate but true.  Like it or not.



And that is a legitimate issue to discuss.  To a certain extent I can understand the 'old guards' view as they've likely spent thousands of dollars on training, promotions, certifications etc in addition to the time in training factor as well.  But at the same time, they have also stood by and enabled those in the KKW to do things that many have found questionable.  As has been stated by others in this thread, many former KKW instructors have made the decision to go their own way as they felt it was better for their students.  They cannot be blamed for this decision.  

The urban legend of being a black belt is one that is exceptionally skilled.  One that is a 'master' so-to-speak, perhaps not in title but one that knows the system.  One that has trained hard above and beyond the norm.  But perhaps it is a legend with a basis in fact.  Perhaps the term black belt has been so dumb downed, so stripped of meaning that today a 6 year old can take and pass the test.  It has been watered down for commercial reasons.  Rather than being a hard earned goal that one needs to put real effort into obtaining...it is now just another belt, another testing fee, another means to charge a fee.  Yeah, I know that a black belt is just an advance student...its just a low level grade...but that is perhaps just the justification used to allow it to be commercialized.  Degrees of a black belt should be just that...degrees of a a BLACK BELT!  

Just my thoughts to toss on the table.


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> The urban legend of being a black belt is one that is exceptionally skilled.  One that is a 'master' so-to-speak, perhaps not in title but one that knows the system.  One that has trained hard above and beyond the norm.  But perhaps it is a legend with a basis in fact.



I think that's been the view of non-martial artists over the years, but a lot of Taekwondoin also have started to believe this view of a black belt.  I wonder if it's because each generation in certain schools have made the black belt gradings they give harder than the ones they had to perform (you kids today have it so easy, my students won't find it that easy).  Then they look around at a wider standard and consider it a dumbing down or watering down.  I wonder what a 1st Dan test would have looked like in Korea in the 50s...

I think maybe it's just most people are now on the same page (except for those same groups who intend on making it harder and harder to get to the mythical "kill a person with a single look" black belt) with regard to what a black belt is.

A black belt means you can do all the basics.  It doesn't mean you're an expert teacher or can stand on the head of a pencil while fighting ten opponents.  It's people making black belt mean something it was never supposed to that are setting the whole martial arts community up for a PR fall when we don't meet that expectation.

Taekwondo is a personal journey - one person's 4th dan level is another's 1st dan.


----------



## troubleenuf

Im not sure its a matter of "standing by" and enabling.  Its more a matter of never having had a say in it in the first place.  If you were a non-korean black belt training in the system you never had a say in the first place.  
  My instructor sat down with me one day and told me that the "new" way to train was to get everyone to black belt in a year and "then start training them".  He told me this was the way everyone was doing it.  So basically yes, their black belts are my color belts.  And yes they are still Kukkiwon.  They have closed tournaments so their people never have to have to find out how bad they really are by fighting someone who trains they way they should.  Its like a mini cult.  Closed off from the rest of the martial arts world so that they control what their people know and who they come into contact with.  Its amazing to me what they get by with.  




Kong Soo Do said:


> And that is a legitimate issue to discuss.  To a certain extent I can understand the 'old guards' view as they've likely spent thousands of dollars on training, promotions, certifications etc in addition to the time in training factor as well.  But at the same time, they have also stood by and enabled those in the KKW to do things that many have found questionable.  As has been stated by others in this thread, many former KKW instructors have made the decision to go their own way as they felt it was better for their students.  They cannot be blamed for this decision.
> 
> The urban legend of being a black belt is one that is exceptionally skilled.  One that is a 'master' so-to-speak, perhaps not in title but one that knows the system.  One that has trained hard above and beyond the norm.  But perhaps it is a legend with a basis in fact.  Perhaps the term black belt has been so dumb downed, so stripped of meaning that today a 6 year old can take and pass the test.  It has been watered down for commercial reasons.  Rather than being a hard earned goal that one needs to put real effort into obtaining...it is now just another belt, another testing fee, another means to charge a fee.  Yeah, I know that a black belt is just an advance student...its just a low level grade...but that is perhaps just the justification used to allow it to be commercialized.  Degrees of a black belt should be just that...degrees of a a BLACK BELT!
> 
> Just my thoughts to toss on the table.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> (for some reason I difficultly spacing this, I hope it comes on in readable format)
> 
> Since we are looking at very large, public & social Taekwondo organization (s) and their possible negatives, let's look at another hypothetical but possible scenario
> 
> I am sure that none of us on this board fall into such a hypothetical category. You don't have to be with the greater Taekwondo movement, but, the question becomes, what are you actually with?
> 
> We know that most Asian/Oriental martial arts stress that the individual grow. White belt student grows into black belt student, grows into instructor, coach, trainer, referee or just good senior & mentor, grows into leader within local Taekwondo, then international Taekwondo, within sports, within the community and within the world.  Through all this is hopefully the goal to understanding the self and then others, helping others, providing opportunities for other, etc is desirable.
> 
> However, let's pretend there are a group of Taekwondo practitioners who spun off from the world's largest, public & social Taekwondo organizations:
> 
> Here is their hypothetical situaiton
> 
> - made it only part way through Taekwondo growth phase
> - did not developed a traditional, respectful, long lasting relationship with their instructor
> - though they strive to be a part of the Asian/Oriental martial arts mystic, when they encountered the culture it feels to foreign and awkward, they fail to grasp it or adapt
> - their relationship with their instructor and big seniors becomes fractured and ends, in Taekwondo culture this means any relationship in a traditional sense with Taekwondo ends
> 
> This creates a problem for this hypothetical group
> 
> One, because Taekwondo culture is Korean culture, a culture centered on relationships between junior, senior and peer practitioners.  Puunui can tell you that it is amazing how long, and how healthy these relationships can be.
> 
> Two, because they now cut off their access to learning more about technique, training, etc, so learning stops where their relationship stops
> 
> Here is the sad path this hypothetical group (not naming any group) might follow:
> 
> - eventually no one in the greater social Taekwondo world is paying attention to them
> 
> - the only relationship they had to the international Taekwondo world, is gone
> 
> - they feel outcast from the main stream pubic & social structure of Taekwondo
> 
> - now few people actually know them, or even who they are. In a culture where everything is based on who you are related to, they are an unknown entity
> 
> - they search out and find a handful of like minded people to cling to, they form a "committee" of all members of the group, usually 4 or 5, like, "The Gang of Five"
> 
> - since real learning about Taekwondo stopped, they begin to fabricate everything from history, stories, personal background, training methods and the reasoning behind it all but the fact is, their skills do not advance, regressing over from time being isolated
> 
> - they have no goal training at, or, actual experience interacting with the top educators of Taekwondo at public, large populous Taekwondo institutions
> 
> - they have no goal training at, or, actual experience at mixing in with the international Taekwondo community at Hanmadang, World Expo, Taekwondo Park, etc
> 
> - they have no goal participating in, or, actual experience at a World level WTF event, like World Championships, or the Olympics
> 
> - they never understand the value and relationship of international sports and world peace and Taekwondo's role and achievement in that world movement
> 
> after time, having never reached their full potential in Taekwondo they begin to turn on their former martial art and it's practitioners, all 80,000,000 of them, they fill with hate and begin to act with hate
> 
> This hypothetical group shuns the real world of Taekwondo and recluses into their own sterile world of self created dogma
> 
> - they strive for recognition and kudos as the leader of their small, isolated group
> 
> - leadership makes repetitious statements on how bad the mainstream and try to get others to repeat it, so they begin to believe it
> 
> - their hidden agenda becomes "Isolation, Separation & Alienation" from the mainstream
> 
> - they isolate their handful of students from even the general population in their town, teaching them out of their bathroom or garage, or somewhere hidden away from the public eye, indoctrinating them with their hate filled propaganda
> 
> - The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the a viable system for change that will solve old problems or the larger organizations ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to indoctrination and propaganda discourage their participation in with the greater pool of people in their activity, and stunts their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader
> 
> - the group is no longer accountable to any main stream authority in their martial art
> 
> - the group leadership has the special mission of trying to "save" practitioners from the wrongs of the mainstream
> 
> - leadership claims connection to older, more traditional roots and values of the past
> 
> - the group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society
> 
> - they publish their negative assessment of the mainstream group attempting to recruit others with broken relationships
> 
> It is important to maintain relationships.  With your family, friends, associates, etc.




I think it is important to maintain relationships within the martial arts, especially one like Taekwondo, which really requires the cooperation of many different groups and many different practitioners. In fact, I have to come the realization that relationships just might be the most important thing in Taekwondo. All of the troubles and challenges that Taekwondo is facing nationally and globally can be traced to a break down in respect, and in relationships.


----------



## puunui

I've been reading some of these posts regarding why this or that person shouldn't be given a black belt. Most of it has to do with the idea that young people cannot understand the importance or gravity of what a black belt means. I find this ironic because I think the people making these sorts of statements do not really understand what ranks or grades mean, historically, or practically.

We all know that Kano Sensei developed the ranking system for Judo, which he got from the game of Go. In Go (sort of like asian checkers), players are "ranked" according to ability and skill, such that players of similar or equal ability can play each other in a meaningful way. If one has too high a skill level than the other, then it is less "fun" and less challenging for both. So in Go, they try to match people so that each can gain maximum benefit and enjoyment from the experience. There is no requirement of "maturity" or having some sort of high level understanding about the importance of Go in the great scheme of the universe; rather is it simply looked upon as a handicapping system for the game. 

Belt ranks serve the same purpose with respect to the martial arts, in that they serve as a handicapping system so that competitors can compete against similarly ranked or skilled players. And because it is a physical contest, Taekwondo or other martial arts further break down competitors into sub categories according to age, weight, and sex. Enter a tournament and most likely you will be competing against someone who is similar to you in all these aspects. 

If someone is obviously too skilled for the division that they are competing in, then the get "promoted" to one with higher skilled players. If someone competes in a rank level that is over their present skill level, then everyone will know because they will lose. They can continue to compete at that level or they can go down a level or two and find their correct place in the competition scheme of things. There is no requirement of "maturity" or understanding of the importance of the black belt in determining one's correct place in the competition. 

Why weren't children given dan ranks when the system was first started? It was because we did not want children (back then young males) competing in the same arena as men, for obvious reasons. There would be no point in having a seven year old first dan up against a 25 year old in a sparring match. What would that prove? Nothing, so the answer was to not let the seven year old compete in the dan rank divisions, hence the creation of the poom system. At 15 or 16, children could physically compete with adults, and therefore the children could convert their poom rank to a similar dan rank. Same thing with the person who stopped training as a poom and then later wanted to get back into it, they would get their poom rank transferred to a corresponding dan rank, because now they were old enough to compete in the adult divisions. 

Today, through misunderstanding or a lack of instruction, practitioners have created their own standards for what is or isn't a "black belt", when the simple answer is staring at them the whole time through the system of competition which they probably participated in at one point or another. 

The real question isn't whether a six year old deserves a poom rank, since that six year old would be paired with other six year olds of similar rank. That is who we compare the six year old poom holder to, other six year old poom holders, and not adult dan holders. 

But the real question is why would someone who is all about "self defense" need rank at all. If I am doing golf as a method of self defense, how to swing the club at my attacker, then why would I need a golf handicap? Gymnastics also has a system of levels for competition, like almost all "sports", but if I am interested in gymnastics for other reasons (break dancing, or even martial arts) why would I need a gymnastics ranking?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I've been reading some of these posts regarding why this or that person shouldn't be given a black belt. Most of it has to do with the idea that young people cannot understand the importance or gravity of what a black belt means. I find this ironic because I think the people making these sorts of statements do not really understand what ranks or grades mean, historically, or practically.
> 
> We all know that Kano Sensei developed the ranking system for Judo, which he got from the game of Go. In Go (sort of like asian checkers), players are "ranked" according to ability and skill, such that players of similar or equal ability can play each other in a meaningful way. If one has too high a skill level than the other, then it is less "fun" and less challenging for both. So in Go, they try to match people so that each can gain maximum benefit and enjoyment from the experience. There is no requirement of "maturity" or having some sort of high level understanding about the importance of Go in the great scheme of the universe; rather is it simply looked upon as a handicapping system for the game.
> 
> Belt ranks serve the same purpose with respect to the martial arts, in that they serve as a handicapping system so that competitors can compete against similarly ranked or skilled players. And because it is a physical contest, Taekwondo or other martial arts further break down competitors into sub categories according to age, weight, and sex. Enter a tournament and most likely you will be competing against someone who is similar to you in all these aspects.
> 
> If someone is obviously too skilled for the division that they are competing in, then the get "promoted" to one with higher skilled players. If someone competes in a rank level that is over their present skill level, then everyone will know because they will lose. They can continue to compete at that level or they can go down a level or two and find their correct place in the competition scheme of things. There is no requirement of "maturity" or understanding of the importance of the black belt in determining one's correct place in the competition.
> 
> Why weren't children given dan ranks when the system was first started? It was because we did not want children (back then young males) competing in the same arena as men, for obvious reasons. There would be no point in having a seven year old first dan up against a 25 year old in a sparring match. What would that prove? Nothing, so the answer was to not let the seven year old compete in the dan rank divisions, hence the creation of the poom system. At 15 or 16, children could physically compete with adults, and therefore the children could convert their poom rank to a similar dan rank. Same thing with the person who stopped training as a poom and then later wanted to get back into it, they would get their poom rank transferred to a corresponding dan rank, because now they were old enough to compete in the adult divisions.
> 
> Today, through misunderstanding or a lack of instruction, practitioners have created their own standards for what is or isn't a "black belt", when the simple answer is staring at them the whole time through the system of competition which they probably participated in at one point or another.
> 
> The real question isn't whether a six year old deserves a poom rank, since that six year old would be paired with other six year olds of similar rank. That is who we compare the six year old poom holder to, other six year old poom holders, and not adult dan holders.
> 
> But the real question is why would someone who is all about "self defense" need rank at all. If I am doing golf as a method of self defense, how to swing the club at my attacker, then why would I need a golf handicap? Gymnastics also has a system of levels for competition, like almost all "sports", but if I am interested in gymnastics for other reasons (break dancing, or even martial arts) why would I need a gymnastics ranking?


QFT!!!  Especially the last paragraph.

Daniel


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I had a really long, well thought out reply to share.  But then I thought, 'why'?  

Seriously, those that think KKW TKD is a joke will continue to think of it as a joke.  Those that think it is okay to persue commercialism over values will continue to do so.  Those that think there is nothing wrong with promoting a 6 year old, or rank skipping, or not having to physically be at a test to pass or any of the other 'issues' that are continually brought up will continue to think there is nothing wrong.

And in the end, who is right and who is wrong?

Perhaps...just perhaps, any 'rank' that is earned, regardless of the reason for training is...in the end, a highly personal thing and only of value to the person themselves.


----------



## Tony49

puunui said:


> The real question isn't whether a six year old deserves a poom rank, since that six year old would be paired with other six year olds of similar rank. That is who we compare the six year old poom holder to, other six year old poom holders, and not adult dan holders.
> 
> But the real question is why would someone who is all about "self defense" need rank at all. If I am doing golf as a method of self defense, how to swing the club at my attacker, then why would I need a golf handicap? Gymnastics also has a system of levels for competition, like almost all "sports", but if I am interested in gymnastics for other reasons (break dancing, or even martial arts) why would I need a gymnastics ranking?



I agree if you are doing Self-Defense then the belt just holds up your pants.  There was a group that practice what they called Combatives and they actually burnt their belts and certificates. 

I like the poom belts or Jr. Black Belts because it allows kids and adults to reconize their skill level as it relates to their peers.  At our school we don't give a Dan Rank unless you are 18.  The reason is kid's brains have not fully developed.  They don't always know right from wrong or understand all the consequences.  That is why the law doesn't not try kids as adults unless the crime is really bad and the kid shows no remorse. Now not all adults have learn these skills either but I assume most instructors would either kick that student out or not give them a BB until they change their attitude.  However, if you give an kid a BB you might not have a chance to see their character develop if they quit before it fully develops.  As for the old guy, we give out an Honorary BB because they can't always demonstrate the same skill but have demonstrated loyalty passion and a committed to help the school or art progress.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Seriously, those that think KKW TKD is a joke will continue to think of it as a joke.  Those that think it is okay to persue commercialism over values will continue to do so.  Those that think there is nothing wrong with promoting a 6 year old, or rank skipping, or not having to physically be at a test to pass or any of the other 'issues' that are continually brought up will continue to think there is nothing wrong.



So are you saying that none of the members in your International Kong Soo Do Association have committed any of the acts that you describe above? Do you have any Kukkiwon certification or any experience training under a Kukkiwon certified instructor who taught the Kukkiwon curriculum?


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I had a really long, well thought out reply to share.  But then I thought, 'why'?




Why not? I would like to hear your perspective on the role of rank in the martial arts, in particular for those who are primarily self defense oriented like yourself. Why would someone like you need or want rank?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> So are you saying that none of the members in your International Kong Soo Do Association have committed any of the acts that you describe above? Do you have any Kukkiwon certification or any experience training under a Kukkiwon certified instructor who taught the Kukkiwon curriculum?


 
Well, I'm pretty sure there are no six year old IKSDA members. I can't think of anyone that has skipped a rank. Some have been promoted without an actual physical test, but based upon prior knowledge of the persons abilities as well as a rather long TIG. More importantly, to date know one has been charged anything in the IKSDA other than S&H of their certification. So the commercialism factor is a non-factor for us. 



> I would like to hear your perspective on the role of rank in the martial arts, in particular for those who are primarily self defense oriented like yourself. Why would someone like you need or want rank?


 
Basically because it is a known factor. Using a Jutsu vs. Do comparison, they have fairly blended over the years. I don't remember if it was the last Ryu or not to go with the Dan/Kyu system, but Uechi Ryu finally coverted over around 1954 or so if memory serves. Now Uechi Ryu does have a sport element. But anyone that has taken it (particularly perfoming Sanchin kata for a BB test) knows that it is a very hard core martial art with a profound element of 'self-defense'. And I would add that the SD element is first and formost with sport being secondary. Also, there are definite differences in what is SD and what is sport. Anyone that knows the Uechi history and what happened when the Japanese sport team came calling back in the 50's will know what I mean. But the point is that it is a known element for both despite it being initially for sport. 

If were going to go strictly by the origins of the belts, we'd also have to get rid of the plethora of rainbow colors and stripes and go back to strictly white, brown and black as those were the original colors. But as with anything, it is adapted to the needs of the individual system.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure there are no six year old IKSDA members. I can't think of anyone that has skipped a rank. Some have been promoted without an actual physical test, but based upon prior knowledge of the persons abilities as well as a rather long TIG. More importantly, to date know one has been charged anything in the IKSDA other than S&H of their certification. So the commercialism factor is a non-factor for us.



Translation: You have no Kukkiwon certification. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Basically because it is a known factor. Using a Jutsu vs. Do comparison, they have fairly blended over the years. I don't remember if it was the last Ryu or not to go with the Dan/Kyu system, but Uechi Ryu finally coverted over around 1954 or so if memory serves. Now Uechi Ryu does have a sport element. But anyone that has taken it (particularly perfoming Sanchin kata for a BB test) knows that it is a very hard core martial art with a profound element of 'self-defense'. And I would add that the SD element is first and formost with sport being secondary. Also, there are definite differences in what is SD and what is sport. Anyone that knows the Uechi history and what happened when the Japanese sport team came calling back in the 50's will know what I mean. But the point is that it is a known element for both despite it being initially for sport.



Sounds like you know more about Uechi Ryu than you do Kukki Taekwondo. Do you even have a Taekwondo or Kong Soo Do 1st Dan? If not, then you skipped rank to your Kong Soo Do 7th Dan. By the way, who promoted GM Dunn to 8th Dan? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> If were going to go strictly by the origins of the belts, we'd also have to get rid of the plethora of rainbow colors and stripes and go back to strictly white, brown and black as those were the original colors. But as with anything, it is adapted to the needs of the individual system.



Are you sure those are the original colors? They weren't in Korea.


----------



## Tez3

I think you could link this thread to the one that asks how you define a martial artist to understand why many adults get upset at 6 year old black belts. For many being a martial artist is an adult concept, we learn to fight, to defend ourselves and to be discplined in what we do. Black belts, not just in TKD, it goes for karate, Judo etc as well, are supposed to be the epitome of a martial artist and it's very hard to imagine a child having the qualities we suppose a black belt should have.

The idea of belt factories, churning out child black belts for the money I think annoys everyone of all styles of martial arts. If they only teach enough to pass the grade they are cheating the recipients and making a mockery of martial arts but I suspect they are too busy counting the money to worry about that.

Many of us do our black belts tests to prove to ourselves that we can, to go through a gruelling test and come out the other side with a black belt feels like an achievement to be proud of. If it's too easy we feel cheated so when we see a child gaining their BBs we feel that if a child can pass it, it must be an easy test and we've haven't been given the chance to prove ourselves and this devalues the BB we've been 'given', we haven't won it.

Some people know in themselves they are good enough and don't need the assurance of being graded, they're lucky but for most it's a case that we need to be graded to feel our achievement. Perhaps it shouldn't be that way, that we should all feel good enough but the truth is we don't.

Some things, like driving a vehicle, having sex, drinking alcohol are inherently adult activities, something children don't and shouldn't do until they are mature enough to understand the whys and wherefores, many feel being a black belt is also one of those things that should be for adults too.


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> But the real question is why would someone who is all about "self defense" need rank at all. If I am doing golf as a method of self defense, how to swing the club at my attacker, then why would I need a golf handicap? quote]
> 
> I would taje it a step further. If you are "All about Self defense" or perhaps only about self defense, you don't need rank. You really don't need a "Martial Art".
> 
> As one reality based exponent (Peyton Quinn) has said for decades. "I don't teach a martial art.".
> 
> I remeber asking an Israeli guy a few decades ago whether he learbnned the Martial art of Krav Maga in basic training. (This was before it became mass marketed) His response was "What Martial Art? There is nothing artistic about kneeing someone in the groin."


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Translation: You have no Kukkiwon certification.



I could have had a KKW BB cert at any time I wished for decades as my instructor is a KKW ranked master.  I chose not to have one because it does not further my goals.  



> Sounds like you know more about Uechi Ryu than you do Kukki Taekwondo.



I know a lot about each since I've trained in both (actually Pangainoon was my first formal art).  I also know about Shuri Te, Aikijujutsu, Krav Maga, Hapkido etc.



> Do you even have a Taekwondo or Kong Soo Do 1st Dan? If not, then you skipped rank to your Kong Soo Do 7th Dan.



Yes, and no I've never skipped.  How about you?



> By the way, who promoted GM Dunn to 8th Dan?



Why not ask him directly?



> Are you sure those are the original colors? They weren't in Korea.



Hmm, you're not suggesting Korea had belt colors before Japan are you.  That would be silly.  Belts went from Judo to Shotokan and then to everyone else that wanted to use them.  The Koreans borrowed the concept in the same way the other systems borrowed and used them.  Somewhere along the line, someone said, "hey...we should add yellow and orange and blue and green and purple and camo and use electrical tape for stripes....and charge $50 for each time"!  

Would that have come from Korea?


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> I would taje it a step further. If you are "All about Self defense" or perhaps only about self defense, you don't need rank. You really don't need a "Martial Art". As one reality based exponent (Peyton Quinn) has said for decades. "I don't teach a martial art.".



Peyton respects martial artists, don't know if he considers himself one, but at least he is honest in what he is presenting to the public through his self defense courses. He's a good guy, he once sent me autographed copies of his books for free, without me asking, to add to my collection.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I could have had a KKW BB cert at any time I wished for decades as my instructor is a KKW ranked master.  I chose not to have one because it does not further my goals.



I have had Kukkiwon certification for decades, because my instructors never gave me the option of whether I would receive Kukkiwon certification or not. They just automatically gave it to the students, just like they automatically received their own Kukkiwon certification when it was time for their promotions. But let me ask you, is GM Dunn your "KKW ranked master"? I saw on the MT archives that someone was claiming to be a Taekwondo 3rd Dan under GM Dunn, and the person who was saying this wrote that GM Dunn was a Kukkiwon 4th Dan. This was in 2003 I believe, which makes me wonder if it is the same person, given that GM Dunn now claims 8th Dan, 8 years later. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes, and no I've never skipped.  How about you?



No I never skipped any dan. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Why not ask him directly?



Ok. What is his phone number? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Hmm, you're not suggesting Korea had belt colors before Japan are you.  That would be silly.  Belts went from Judo to Shotokan and then to everyone else that wanted to use them.  The Koreans borrowed the concept in the same way the other systems borrowed and used them.  Somewhere along the line, someone said, "hey...we should add yellow and orange and blue and green and purple and camo and use electrical tape for stripes....and charge $50 for each time"!  Would that have come from Korea?



I'm not suggesting anything other than the fact that even in Korea, the "original" belt system was not white, brown, black. Are you so positive that it was, in Judo and Shotokan? I will tell you this, that the original color belts for the Shotokan was white, red and black, that at some point later, after WWII, brown was substituted for red. That is why we use the red belt as a color belt before black in Taekwondo, as a legacy from Shotokan, and Japan.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I have had Kukkiwon certification for decades, because my instructors never gave me the option of whether I would receive Kukkiwon certification or not. They just automatically gave it to the students, just like they automatically received their own Kukkiwon certification when it was time for their promotions. But let me ask you, is GM Dunn your "KKW ranked master"? I saw on the MT archives that someone was claiming to be a Taekwondo 3rd Dan under GM Dunn, and the person who was saying this wrote that GM Dunn was a Kukkiwon 4th Dan. This was in 2003 I believe, which makes me wonder if it is the same person, given that GM Dunn now claims 8th Dan, 8 years later.


 
If you needed a KKW certification for what you do then the requirement placed upon you was fine. I didn't have a requirement placed upon me. GM Dunn received his KKW 4th back in the mid-90's. If you'd like to talk with him first hand, his email is available on the website or join Martial Warrior and talk with him there. That way you don't have to sniff around, you can go straight to the source.  If he would like to give you his phone number then he can do so. And yes, Judo used white, brown and black.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Puunui,

Just curious why you would even care anyway about GM Dunn? Are these not your words...



> Personally, I am not diminished or affected in any way if someone gets promoted to any rank.
> 
> Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem.
> 
> One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.


----------



## Twin Fist

ANYONE that is ok with a SIX YEAR OLD getting a dan OR poom rank?


nope


no use for them


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> If you needed a KKW certification for what you do then the requirement placed upon you was fine. I didn't have a requirement placed upon me.



What requirement? We got promoted and they gave us Kukkiwon certification. It's that simple. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> GM Dunn received his KKW 4th back in the mid-90's. If you'd like to talk with him first hand, his email is available on the website or join Martial Warrior and talk with him there. That way you don't have to sniff around, you can go straight to the source.  If he would like to give you his phone number then he can do so.



Sounds like too much work, joining your message board. But even if he received in 4th Dan in 1995 say, time in grade would have his promotions like this:

4th: 1995
5th: 1999
6th: 2004
7th: 2010
8th: 2018

And you never answered whether he was your taekwondo instructor. If he was, then the "decades" comment would be a stretch, as would be your promotion to Taekwondo 7th Dan:

1st: 1995
2nd: 1996
3rd: 1998
4th: 2001
5th: 2005
6th: 2010
7th: 2016




Kong Soo Do said:


> And yes, Judo used white, brown and black.



I was told by my grandfather who said it started off as white and black only, like the colors of the stones in the game Go, white for kyu, black for dan. The other colors came in later, including purple, brown, red/white and red. What is your source for the fact that the original judo belt colors were white, brown, black?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Sounds like too much work, joining your message board.


 
60 seconds is to much work?  

Different organizations have different TIG standards.  

And I repost your own words again;



> Personally, I am not diminished or affected in any way if someone gets promoted to any rank.
> 
> Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem.
> 
> One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.


 
Your psuedo-concern is very hypocritical.  Why not just come out and be honest?  I rubbed you the wrong way because of some very direct questions and comments I've made.  You see my directness as an attack.  You don't like that I place a division between self-defense and sport training.  And you're sniffing around trying to find something to use against me.  And when I suggest you simply contact my instructor and chat with him directly over any question you may have you come back with 'it is to much work'.  I didn't realize sending an email or taking 60 seconds to join a board was that tremendous of an effort.  I think you need to reread your own words above.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> 60 seconds is to much work?



I think it is. I don't think I will becoming a regular member of your message. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Your psuedo-concern is very hypocritical.  Why not just come out and be honest?  I rubbed you the wrong way because of some very direct questions and comments I've made.  You see my directness as an attack.  You don't like that I place a division between self-defense and sport training.  And you're sniffing around trying to find something to use against me.  And when I suggest you simply contact my instructor and chat with him directly over any question you may have you come back with 'it is to much work'.  I didn't realize sending an email or taking 60 seconds to join a board was that tremendous of an effort.  I think you need to reread your own words above.



I don't know if I would call it "psuedo-concern", but your organization does raise a lot of questions. I believe it is on its third name change, Taekido and International Kongsoodo Federation being the others. And there already has been some discussion about your organization already, as far as I can see. As for placing a division between self defense and sport, well that is your business. I would try to contact your instructor and did ask for his telephone number but you declined to give that to me. I would think that the president of any organization would have his telephone number up for everyone to call, not just me. And I wouldn't call to complain about you, but rather to simply ask him some simple questions which you apparently feel uncomfortable answering regarding your organization. 

I mean really, you were the one making all kinds of statements regarding Kukkiwon certification and Kukkiwon Taekwondo, I would think that you would at least be able to respond to similar questions regarding your organization. If you wish to ask any questions or you want any information regarding the Kukkiwon or Kukki Taekwondo, please by all means ask away. If you wish to speak to the Kukkiwon President or someone at the Kukkiwon, the telephone number is 82-2-567-1058.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Just curious why you would even care anyway about GM Dunn? Are these not your words...




Just curious as to who promoted him to 8th Dan. If it is some sort of big secret, then don't answer. If you want to know who promoted any of my teachers, I can easily tell you the answer.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> ANYONE that is ok with a SIX YEAR OLD getting a dan OR poom rank?




I'm ok with it, and so is the Kukkiwon.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Whatever Puunui.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> ANYONE that is ok with a SIX YEAR OLD getting a dan


Cannot speak for other orgs, but within the KKW, it is a non-issue; nobody under fifteen gets one.



Twin Fist said:


> OR poom rank?


Given that a pum is a child's rank, I'm fine with it.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

i am not as NO six year old IN MY OPINION has or ever would be able to perform to my standards of what a BB means.


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> I'm ok with it, and so is the Kukkiwon.



then i have no use for you or the KookieJuan


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> i am not as NO six year old IN MY OPINION has or ever would be able to perform to my standards of what a BB means.


But black belt is not a rank; it represents the rank of first dan.  A pum is not a dan and is supposed to be represented by a red/black belt.

Like it or not, kiddies wearing black belts are here to stay.  And the subject will always evoke strong opinions.

Regardless of where people stand on it, its not about the belt anyway, so no need for all the fuss that people make over it.

Daniel


----------



## Archtkd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> But black belt is not a rank; it represents the rank of first dan. A pum is not a dan and is supposed to be represented by a red/black belt.
> 
> Like it or not, kiddies wearing black belts are here to stay. And the subject will always evoke strong opinions.
> 
> Regardless of where people stand on it, its not about the belt anyway, so no need for all the fuss that people make over it.
> 
> Daniel


 
And some of those kids are the future. We will not be around forever.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Whatever Puunui.




I was really young, taking Judo, when my grandfather and I spoke about the history of judo ranks and the development of the color belt system. As a kid I was always asking why why why and luckily I had parents, a grandfather and teachers who actively encouraged my curious nature by patiently answering my all questions as best they could. And when they reached the point where they couldn't answer, they encouraged me to look for the answer myself, including but not limited to taking me to the library and/or buying me books on subjects that I was interested in (including martial arts books). 

But again, I was really young when I had that judo rank conversation with my grandfather, and I began to wonder if I was remembering the conversation incorrectly. So I did a quick internet search and found this: 

http://judoinfo.com/obi.htm

*

Kano apparently began the custom of having his _yudansha_ wear black _obi_ (belts) in 1886. These _obi_ weren't the belts _karateka_ and _judoka_ wear         today -- Kano hadn't invented the _judogi_ (Judo uniform) yet,         and his students were still practicing in _kimono_. They were the wide _obi_ still          worn with formal _kimono_. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern _judogi_ and         its modern _obi_, *but he still only used white and black  belt ranks*. The white uniform represented the values of purity,  avoidance of ego, and simplicity. It gave no outward indication of  social class so that all students began as equals. The black belt with  the white gi represents the polarity of opposites, or _In_ and _Yo_. The student begins empty, but fills up with knowledge.

*

Here is another webpage which discusses how rank in the game Go are used to handicap players:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)#Ranks_and_ratings

In Go, rank indicates a player's skill in the game. Traditionally, ranks are measured using _kyu_ and _dan_ grades,[46] a system which also has been adopted by many martial arts. More recently, mathematical rating systems similar to the Elo rating system have been introduced.[47] Such rating systems often provide a mechanism for converting a rating to a kyu or dan grade.[47] Kyu grades (abbreviated _k_)  are considered student grades and decrease as playing level increases,  meaning 1st kyu is the strongest available kyu grade. Dan grades  (abbreviated _d_) are considered master grades, and increase from 1st dan to 7th dan. First dan equals a black belt  in eastern martial arts using this system. The difference among each  amateur rank is one handicap stone. For example, if a 5k plays a game  with a 1k, the 5k would need a handicap of four stones to even the odds.  Top-level amateur players sometimes defeat professionals in tournament  play.[48] Professional players have _professional dan ranks_ (abbreviated _p_), these ranks are separate from amateur ranks

*

As I stretch my memory to the very edge, I want to say that my grandfather told me at one point, the judo kyu ranks were white and red belts, followed by dan ranks of black red and white again. The senior red belt dan rank was a double wide red belt (similar to what the professor in CHA3 Kenpo wears) while the 12th Dan double wide white belt was reserved for Professor Kano only. The double wide red and white belts were a returning of the beginning so to speak, and there has been a lot written about that philosophical topic such that I don't really need to get into it here. Later, they went with brown belt and made red belt the single version that we see today and the double white belt has been discontinued once Kano Sensei passed away.

I cannot say for certain if this is what he actually said to me though. I do remember the white and black belts only comment, especially in relation to the game of Go, because my grandfather had a Go set in the house and it was a visually striking reminder of where the rank system came from. So I remember that part. But the other part was probably too much information for a seven year old to absorb and I couldn't relate to red belt because I never saw one at that point. My judo teacher (my grandfather's longtime friend) did have a red/white belt, but not red. So I don't remember that part so good.

But it does make sense that Judo may have originally used a red belt instead of a brown belt for senior kyu holders, especially when you take that subject in conjunction with what GM LEE Won Kuk said about the original Shotokan belt system, which was white, red and black. GM Lee said that the kyu rank colors for Shotokan at the time he studied there was white and red, which was the colors of the Japan flag. This was pre WW II Japan, which was a highly nationalistic and militaristic time, sort of how like Germany was ramping up for WW II. But I am unclear. 

When GM Lee returned to he chose the name Chungdo or Bluewaves for his school. Coincidentally, when you add the blue from the Chungdokwan name to the other belt colors of white red and black (the system used by the Chungdokwan) you get the colors of the Korean flag. 

But beyond all of that, I would like to say that I am sure that you are very good at your job as an LEO. And I am also sure that you teach a very good 8-24 hour course on self defense and knife defense, especially when geared towards those similarly situated to yourself, which is LEO. 

However, I think the expertise that you no doubt have in this area, for whatever reason, does not translate over to other aspects of the martial arts. History for one, or discussions regarding competition under the WTF Rules for another. It is sort of ironic, given your position that sport competition does not translate well into self defense scenarios. I think this has come out mainly in our historical discussions, where I basically force you to stretch to the very limits of your knowledge on the subject. 

Once at this point, I guess there are two general ways that you can respond. One is to do what good competitors do, which is to understand the areas that may need work and go do that work, grateful that it was pointed out early, in a tournament of no consequence, rather than at team trials or higher. In this way, we see our "opponent" not as the "enemy" but someone who is assisting us on our journey of self discovery. Probably the best thing that can happen to a competitor is to "lose" a match, because it forces the competitor to look at him or herself realistically and to do an honest self assessment. This is one of the ways that Taekwondo translates into a team sport, because we can learn from even those who are wearing a different color hogu that we are. This is the way that the tournament champion thinks and acts, and I believe that it is the way champions in life also act. 

The other way to respond is to become angry resentful and bitter, lashing out and/or laying in wait while plotting your revenge. Some competitors respond this way, but generally they do not go very far, and most probably quit competing, blaming referees, or the rules, or whatever else for their "failure".


----------



## andyjeffries

puunui said:


> The difference among each  amateur rank is one handicap stone. For example, if a 5k plays a game  with a 1k, the 5k would need a handicap of four stones to even the odds.



The amazing thing about go (or baduk as we're on a KMA board) is how well the handicap system works.  When I've played on occasions with my 8 year old son (just on a 9x9 board) we find a handicap that works and at that point I can play to the best of my ability and we'll have a fair mixture of wins/losses.  

In any other sport one of you has to "hold back" or the handicaps aren't uniform (e.g. in chess if you take away one of your pieces to handicap yourself against a worse player, it's not a uniform handicap - the piece taken away completely changes your game/strategies available).

Taekwondo sparring, there are guys I beat and guys that beat me.  If I suddenly took one of the kicks out of the arsenal the better guy uses, they would likely still win they'd just use different kicks.  To make it a fair/even fight one person has to hold back or take it easy on the other person.

I used to enjoy playing go (I was never particularly great, but was the best among a few friends that played) until my most regular playing partner died (not from play go, I hasten to add).  It's a great game.  I've tried playing against the computer and occasionally against other friends, but we used to enjoy a regular game of go and some bro-time...


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I was really young, taking Judo, when my grandfather and I spoke about the history of judo ranks and the development of the color belt system. As a kid I was always asking why why why and luckily I had parents, a grandfather and teachers who actively encouraged my curious nature by patiently answering my all questions as best they could. And when they reached the point where they couldn't answer, they encouraged me to look for the answer myself, including but not limited to taking me to the library and/or buying me books on subjects that I was interested in (including martial arts books).
> 
> But again, I was really young when I had that judo rank conversation with my grandfather, and I began to wonder if I was remembering the conversation incorrectly. So I did a quick internet search and found this:
> 
> http://judoinfo.com/obi.htm
> 
> *
> 
> Kano apparently began the custom of having his _yudansha_ wear black _obi_ (belts) in 1886. These _obi_ weren't the belts _karateka_ and _judoka_ wear today -- Kano hadn't invented the _judogi_ (Judo uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in _kimono_. They were the wide _obi_ still worn with formal _kimono_. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern _judogi_ and its modern _obi_, *but he still only used white and black belt ranks*. The white uniform represented the values of purity, avoidance of ego, and simplicity. It gave no outward indication of social class so that all students began as equals. The black belt with the white gi represents the polarity of opposites, or _In_ and _Yo_. The student begins empty, but fills up with knowledge.
> 
> *
> 
> Here is another webpage which discusses how rank in the game Go are used to handicap players:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28game%29#Ranks_and_ratings
> 
> In Go, rank indicates a player's skill in the game. Traditionally, ranks are measured using _kyu_ and _dan_ grades,[46] a system which also has been adopted by many martial arts. More recently, mathematical rating systems similar to the Elo rating system have been introduced.[47] Such rating systems often provide a mechanism for converting a rating to a kyu or dan grade.[47] Kyu grades (abbreviated _k_) are considered student grades and decrease as playing level increases, meaning 1st kyu is the strongest available kyu grade. Dan grades (abbreviated _d_) are considered master grades, and increase from 1st dan to 7th dan. First dan equals a black belt in eastern martial arts using this system. The difference among each amateur rank is one handicap stone. For example, if a 5k plays a game with a 1k, the 5k would need a handicap of four stones to even the odds. Top-level amateur players sometimes defeat professionals in tournament play.[48] Professional players have _professional dan ranks_ (abbreviated _p_), these ranks are separate from amateur ranks
> 
> *
> 
> As I stretch my memory to the very edge, I want to say that my grandfather told me at one point, the judo kyu ranks were white and red belts, followed by dan ranks of black red and white again. The senior red belt dan rank was a double wide red belt (similar to what the professor in CHA3 Kenpo wears) while the 12th Dan double wide white belt was reserved for Professor Kano only. The double wide red and white belts were a returning of the beginning so to speak, and there has been a lot written about that philosophical topic such that I don't really need to get into it here. Later, they went with brown belt and made red belt the single version that we see today and the double white belt has been discontinued once Kano Sensei passed away.
> 
> I cannot say for certain if this is what he actually said to me though. I do remember the white and black belts only comment, especially in relation to the game of Go, because my grandfather had a Go set in the house and it was a visually striking reminder of where the rank system came from. So I remember that part. But the other part was probably too much information for a seven year old to absorb and I couldn't relate to red belt because I never saw one at that point. My judo teacher (my grandfather's longtime friend) did have a red/white belt, but not red. So I don't remember that part so good.
> 
> But it does make sense that Judo may have originally used a red belt instead of a brown belt for senior kyu holders, especially when you take that subject in conjunction with what GM LEE Won Kuk said about the original Shotokan belt system, which was white, red and black. GM Lee said that the kyu rank colors for Shotokan at the time he studied there was white and red, which was the colors of the Japan flag. This was pre WW II Japan, which was a highly nationalistic and militaristic time, sort of how like Germany was ramping up for WW II. But I am unclear.
> 
> When GM Lee returned to he chose the name Chungdo or Bluewaves for his school. Coincidentally, when you add the blue from the Chungdokwan name to the other belt colors of white red and black (the system used by the Chungdokwan) you get the colors of the Korean flag.
> 
> But beyond all of that, I would like to say that I am sure that you are very good at your job as an LEO. And I am also sure that you teach a very good 8-24 hour course on self defense and knife defense, especially when geared towards those similarly situated to yourself, which is LEO.
> 
> However, I think the expertise that you no doubt have in this area, for whatever reason, does not translate over to other aspects of the martial arts. History for one, or discussions regarding competition under the WTF Rules for another. It is sort of ironic, given your position that sport competition does not translate well into self defense scenarios. I think this has come out mainly in our historical discussions, where I basically force you to stretch to the very limits of your knowledge on the subject.
> 
> Once at this point, I guess there are two general ways that you can respond. One is to do what good competitors do, which is to understand the areas that may need work and go do that work, grateful that it was pointed out early, in a tournament of no consequence, rather than at team trials or higher. In this way, we see our "opponent" not as the "enemy" but someone who is assisting us on our journey of self discovery. Probably the best thing that can happen to a competitor is to "lose" a match, because it forces the competitor to look at him or herself realistically and to do an honest self assessment. This is one of the ways that Taekwondo translates into a team sport, because we can learn from even those who are wearing a different color hogu that we are. This is the way that the tournament champion thinks and acts, and I believe that it is the way champions in life also act.
> 
> The other way to respond is to become angry resentful and bitter, lashing out and/or laying in wait while plotting your revenge. Some competitors respond this way, but generally they do not go very far, and most probably quit competing, blaming referees, or the rules, or whatever else for their "failure".


 
Okay Puunui, let's have an open diologue with each other. To begin with, I'm not angry, bitter or resentful towards you. I am frustrated with you and I'll explain why. It seems that in the majority of the threads I've authored, or posts that I've made in response to another&#8217;s thread you appear right after with some type of negative reply. My perception is that if I say 'white' you&#8217;re determined to say 'black'. I have to date, reached out three separate times to formulate a peace between us. Twice on the open board and once to your email. You never responded via email and the one time on the board you did half-respond was less than favorable. The combination of this and ping-ponging back and forth with you over mostly trivial details gets tiresome. 

However...

If this is your way of reaching out a hand in peace and friendship then you'll find an open hand in return. You are entitled to your opinion. But the reverse is equally true; I'm entitled to my opinion. And our respective opinions are based upon our individual experiences. I'm not out to make an enemy and I'm not out to disrespect anyone. But I'm not out to be disrespected either. 

You seem to be very knowledgeable on Korean history. That's fine. You also seem to hold the KKW in high regard and perhaps have had a good experience with them. I'm happy that you have. Not everyone unfortunately can say the same. And to be fair, it is not the KKW in-and-of-itself but some....and I repeat some that operate high within its ranks. My instructor is GM Dunn. He is former NYPD and I have the utmost respect for him, his training and his teaching ability. And yes, we have that 'cop-bond' between us. 

He was very loyal to his Korean GM who brought him up to 3rd Dan KKW with the proper TIG for each grade. The full details of the story is not mine to tell, suffice it to say that when the Korean GM's brings in a Korean buddy who is a blue belt and instructs you to _bring him up to speed on all the forms_ and then within the year is sitting at the masters table as a 4th Dan...well it strains the relationship. Oh, this Korean gentleman was only 1st Dan KKW, but in the HMK chain of command he was a 4th Dan. So GM Dunn was ranked from 4th (KKW), to 5th,6th and 7th (non-KKW) by GM Andrew Davies who is 7th KKW (and I believe is the highest ranked KKW in GB, or at least one of the very highest). GM Davies has his 8th directly from GM Kim, Bok Man. GM Dunn did not bother with having the 5th and up KKW as he was satisfied with GM Davies and his organization. GM Dunn's 8th came from the five original school owners that formed the IKSDA. He didn't want it (and still doesn't) but we asked him to assume this rank since the IKSDA was partly his brain child and as our senior in the arts and in years we felt it appropriate. Call it a peer reviewed promotion. Call it an organizational appointment. But we wanted one central ranking authority and since he's been in the arts overall since the mid-60's, he was our choice. And in full disclosure, we all wanted him to take a 9th in our organization. He wouldn't do it. 


Under him I am officially a 6th Dan as of last year. This does not count my prior MA training before GM Dunn. He 'requested' that I continue to be exactly one grade below him since I will be the successor and he didn't want me jumping rank if something unexpected happened to him. I can see this as I've personally seen systems fall apart when the inheritor shoots up unexpectedly upon the passing of a founder. It happened in Uechi Ryu in the early 90's when Kammei Uechi (Kanei's son and Kanbun's grandson) took the reigns. He went from a much lower Dan to 10th in one shot. The result; Uechi Ryu broke into at least 16 different factions because of egos. I said fine as it was important to begin establishing a hierarchy. It wasn't about the rank. I have not physically worn a belt since 2005. Most of my students don't even know what rank I carry in the IKSDA. So I can be accepted and respected as a 7th Dan or not, at the individuals discretion. What matters to me is what I can do and what I can teach. And on that point I stand firm and I'll willingly go on deck with anyone that wants to see what I'm about. That isn't an internet challange and should not be taken as such. That is me saying judge me on what I do and teach and not what I wear. 

So there it is and that's the deal.


----------



## troubleenuf

And when everything is said and done if you were or were not certified by the Kukkiwon it would not change what you know or how good you were or were not in any way shape or form.  It dosnt change who you are or who you will be.




Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay Puunui, let's have an open diologue with each other. To begin with, I'm not angry, bitter or resentful towards you. I am frustrated with you and I'll explain why. It seems that in the majority of the threads I've authored, or posts that I've made in response to anothers thread you appear right after with some type of negative reply. My perception is that if I say 'white' youre determined to say 'black'. I have to date, reached out three separate times to formulate a peace between us. Twice on the open board and once to your email. You never responded via email and the one time on the board you did half-respond was less than favorable. The combination of this and ping-ponging back and forth with you over mostly trivial details gets tiresome.
> 
> However...
> 
> If this is your way of reaching out a hand in peace and friendship then you'll find an open hand in return. You are entitled to your opinion. But the reverse is equally true; I'm entitled to my opinion. And our respective opinions are based upon our individual experiences. I'm not out to make an enemy and I'm not out to disrespect anyone. But I'm not out to be disrespected either.
> 
> You seem to be very knowledgeable on Korean history. That's fine. You also seem to hold the KKW in high regard and perhaps have had a good experience with them. I'm happy that you have. Not everyone unfortunately can say the same. And to be fair, it is not the KKW in-and-of-itself but some....and I repeat some that operate high within its ranks. My instructor is GM Dunn. He is former NYPD and I have the utmost respect for him, his training and his teaching ability. And yes, we have that 'cop-bond' between us.
> 
> He was very loyal to his Korean GM who brought him up to 3rd Dan KKW with the proper TIG for each grade. The full details of the story is not mine to tell, suffice it to say that when the Korean GM's brings in a Korean buddy who is a blue belt and instructs you to _bring him up to speed on all the forms_ and then within the year is sitting at the masters table as a 4th Dan...well it strains the relationship. Oh, this Korean gentleman was only 1st Dan KKW, but in the HMK chain of command he was a 4th Dan. So GM Dunn was ranked from 4th (KKW), to 5th,6th and 7th (non-KKW) by GM Andrew Davies who is 7th KKW (and I believe is the highest ranked KKW in GB, or at least one of the very highest). GM Davies has his 8th directly from GM Kim, Bok Man. GM Dunn did not bother with having the 5th and up KKW as he was satisfied with GM Davies and his organization. GM Dunn's 8th came from the five original school owners that formed the IKSDA. He didn't want it (and still doesn't) but we asked him to assume this rank since the IKSDA was partly his brain child and as our senior in the arts and in years we felt it appropriate. Call it a peer reviewed promotion. Call it an organizational appointment. But we wanted one central ranking authority and since he's been in the arts overall since the mid-60's, he was our choice. And in full disclosure, we all wanted him to take a 9th in our organization. He wouldn't do it.
> 
> 
> Under him I am officially a 6th Dan as of last year. This does not count my prior MA training before GM Dunn. He 'requested' that I continue to be exactly one grade below him since I will be the successor and he didn't want me jumping rank if something unexpected happened to him. I can see this as I've personally seen systems fall apart when the inheritor shoots up unexpectedly upon the passing of a founder. It happened in Uechi Ryu in the early 90's when Kammei Uechi (Kanei's son and Kanbun's grandson) took the reigns. He went from a much lower Dan to 10th in one shot. The result; Uechi Ryu broke into at least 16 different factions because of egos. I said fine as it was important to begin establishing a hierarchy. It wasn't about the rank. I have not physically worn a belt since 2005. Most of my students don't even know what rank I carry in the IKSDA. So I can be accepted and respected as a 7th Dan or not, at the individuals discretion. What matters to me is what I can do and what I can teach. And on that point I stand firm and I'll willingly go on deck with anyone that wants to see what I'm about. That isn't an internet challange and should not be taken as such. That is me saying judge me on what I do and teach and not what I wear.
> 
> So there it is and that's the deal.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I am frustrated with you and I'll explain why. It seems that in the majority of the threads I've authored, or posts that I've made in response to anothers thread you appear right after with some type of negative reply. My perception is that if I say 'white' youre determined to say 'black'.



From my perspective, it is more like you are saying something like the name for front kick in korean is dollyochagi, and I comment that the word is actually apchagi. If you consider that negative, because your opinion is that dollyochagi means front kick, then I guess you are entitled to your "opinion", whereas I am talking about simple facts. What are the original belt colors in judo? The answer is a fact, not an opinion. 





Kong Soo Do said:


> I have to date, reached out three separate times to formulate a peace between us. Twice on the open board and once to your email. You never responded via email and the one time on the board you did half-respond was less than favorable.



Perhaps I operate from a different cultural and philosophical system than you do. Perhaps we value different things. Perhaps if you wished to make peace then you would be acting in a different fashion than even what you are doing now. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> The combination of this and ping-ponging back and forth with you over mostly trivial details gets tiresome.



There are no trivial details. Mastery is in the details. Everything is important to everything else, especially if you want to understand things from a big picture perspective. The difference between a beginner and an advanced practitioner is their attention to the details. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> If this is your way of reaching out a hand in peace and friendship then you'll find an open hand in return.



It is not reaching out a hand, but rather an attempt to see things from a different perspective. I'll give you a recent discussion I had with a very high Korean born senior  who I have become close to over the years. When I first met him, over twenty years ago, he was very formal, and I understood what that meant, and acted accordingly. Ten years after that, I served as his escort during his visit to Hawaii for the US Open. He was very hard on me and would publicly reprimand me for the slightest infraction in front of all the other seniors. I never got upset and took it as it was meant to be taken, which was a learning experience.

But he recently said to me that one of the things  that he remembered most was when I was visiting his dojang for  something. He entered the room, and I immediately stood up and bowed to him, the only one who did so. This was several years ago and he just brought it up. I said that it was not the junior's place to relax the formality between us, that it was the senior who was in control of that dynamic. I also told him that while I appreciated how relaxed he has become in my presence, I also said that I recognized the difference in our relative positions and that I would never consider him my friend, no matter how friendly he acted towards me. For example, I would never slap him on the back and call him by his first name. I could sense the great appreciation for the deep understanding that I had for his point of view, that I treated him according to his perspective, and not my own American point of view. It was another in a long line of things that bring us closer as far as our relationship goes. I act this way with all my seniors. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> You are entitled to your opinion. But the reverse is equally true; I'm entitled to my opinion. And our respective opinions are based upon our individual experiences.



You are entitled to your opinions on matters of opinion; however, you are not entitled to present false information as truth, or for that matter, as opinion either. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm not out to make an enemy and I'm not out to disrespect anyone. But I'm not out to be disrespected either.



I am not out to make an enemy either; as to whether you are disrespecting me or whether you are disrespected is your own perception to which I have no control. I will say that at times some have commented that they felt you were being disrespectful to me; my response was that you probably felt the "adrenal dump" of being challenged in a way that you probably never have been challenged before, and was acting on instinct, from your own perspective. I do think that your perspective is changing, at least a little. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> You seem to be very knowledgeable on Korean history. That's fine. You also seem to hold the KKW in high regard and perhaps have had a good experience with them. I'm happy that you have. Not everyone unfortunately can say the same. And to be fair, it is not the KKW in-and-of-itself but some....and I repeat some that operate high within its ranks.



Then you need to refocus your comments and speak of the individuals in question and not condemn the Kukkiwon or Taekwondo as a whole, which to tell you the truth, has been your approach up until now. I see this is especially true on your message board. Perhaps there is another approach that you can explore in this regard. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> My instructor is GM Dunn. He is former NYPD and I have the utmost respect for him, his training and his teaching ability. And yes, we have that 'cop-bond' between us. He was very loyal to his Korean GM who brought him up to 3rd Dan KKW with the proper TIG for each grade. The full details of the story is not mine to tell, suffice it to say that when the Korean GM's brings in a Korean buddy who is a blue belt and instructs you to _bring him up to speed on all the forms_ and then within the year is sitting at the masters table as a 4th Dan...well it strains the relationship. Oh, this Korean gentleman was only 1st Dan KKW, but in the HMK chain of command he was a 4th Dan.



Why would that story, even if true, affect GM Dunn's relationship to his teacher? One of my teachers did almost the same thing, with the exception that I didn't actually teach the person in question. This person went on to all kinds of negative things, or at least he attempted to do so. When I spoke to my teacher about it, asking him why he promoted this loser, my teacher's response was "I don't tell you what to do." After that, I never raised the subject ever again and we continued with our teacher student relationship. 





Kong Soo Do said:


> So GM Dunn was ranked from 4th (KKW), to 5th,6th and 7th (non-KKW) by GM Andrew Davies who is 7th KKW (and I believe is the highest ranked KKW in GB, or at least one of the very highest).



You mean through the World Ildokwan Federation? That is a topic in itself. I met GM Davies' brother in Korea at the Kukkiwon Branch meeting last year or the year before. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> GM Davies has his 8th directly from GM Kim, Bok Man.



I saw GM Kim at the last Taekwondo Hall of Fame gathering. He walked up to me and asked me in Korean whether I saw GM KWON Jae Hwa anywhere. I politely answered in English that I hadn't seen him but if I did, I would tell him that he was looking for him. 





Kong Soo Do said:


> GM Dunn did not bother with having the 5th and up KKW as he was satisfied with GM Davies and his organization. GM Dunn's 8th came from the five original school owners that formed the IKSDA. He didn't want it (and still doesn't) but we asked him to assume this rank since the IKSDA was partly his brain child and as our senior in the arts and in years we felt it appropriate. Call it a peer reviewed promotion. Call it an organizational appointment. But we wanted one central ranking authority and since he's been in the arts overall since the mid-60's, he was our choice. And in full disclosure, we all wanted him to take a 9th in our organization. He wouldn't do it.



Who were the peers, you and James Ray? Are you familiar with Mr. Ray's history as well? There is a story in itself. One of my direct seniors has personal knowledge on that front. I don't know if we need to get into that at the moment. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Under him I am officially a 6th Dan as of last year. This does not count my prior MA training before GM Dunn. He 'requested' that I continue to be exactly one grade below him since I will be the successor and he didn't want me jumping rank if something unexpected happened to him.



Successor to what? 





Kong Soo Do said:


> I can see this as I've personally seen systems fall apart when the inheritor shoots up unexpectedly upon the passing of a founder. It happened in Uechi Ryu in the early 90's when Kammei Uechi (Kanei's son and Kanbun's grandson) took the reigns. He went from a much lower Dan to 10th in one shot. The result; Uechi Ryu broke into at least 16 different factions because of egos.



In personality driven organizations, that is the normal and expected course, to break up into smaller organizations. The ITF did it, and to a certain extent so did the JKA, first when FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei passed away and then again when Nakayama Sensei passed. You can try and stop it, but I think it is inevitable, unless there is some clear successor that everyone agrees with, like the founder's son or someone like that. Aikido has that dynamic, although it did suffer its own splitting with Tohei Sensei and his Ki Society. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> I said fine as it was important to begin establishing a hierarchy. It wasn't about the rank. I have not physically worn a belt since 2005.



So if and when you teach a class in Kong Soo Do (as opposed to self defense courses), you practice in street clothes? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Most of my students don't even know what rank I carry in the IKSDA. So I can be accepted and respected as a 7th Dan or not, at the individuals discretion. What matters to me is what I can do and what I can teach. And on that point I stand firm and I'll willingly go on deck with anyone that wants to see what I'm about. That isn't an internet challange and should not be taken as such. That is me saying judge me on what I do and teach and not what I wear.



You actually are being looked at by what you do. When we have our discussions, I look at it from the perspective of learning, of sharpening my perspective by the types of responses I receive. I think one of the issues is that you are looking at it from a different angle. One of my juniors who has been reading my stuff since the very beginning, said that reading my posts is like watching a friday night sparring class, and the ones who get the most upset are the ones who don't take it in that way. I don't know how much friday night sparring class you have participated in, but one of the ideas that everyone understands is that you don't get mad at your partner, especially if you are getting hit. He said that everyone knows that you only get better when you go up against someone who is better than you are, and that these people should be grateful that someone is challenging them, the alternative being no challenge and remaining in the same self imposed prison of ideas, sitting in their small pond. People challenge me all the time, I just take them on one by one, in an effort to get better, clearer and more incisive. 

In other words, I write these posts for me, so I improve. Why do you write posts? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> So there it is and that's the deal.



Ok.


----------



## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> And when everything is said and done if you were or were not certified by the Kukkiwon it would not change what you know or how good you were or were not in any way shape or form.  It dosnt change who you are or who you will be.



Maybe not. Or maybe so, because not having Kukkiwon certification does limits one's options, and one's student's options. The fact of the matter is that today more so than yesterday, more people are aware of Kukkiwon certification and more people desire Kukkiwon certification than ever. Look at all the crazy things people do to obtain it. For some people, it's like the Treasure of Sierra Madre, they want it, and they want to keep others from getting it. To me, Kukkiwon certification should be available for everyone, that everyone can and should receive it automatically as a consequence of receiving poom or dan level promotions in Taekwondo. It is certainly not some sort of treasure than needs to be horded.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hi Puunui,

I mentioned early on in one of our ping-pong matches that some very good folks were PMing me with little tidbits about you. Well, the PM's keep coming as does the phone calls. From those folks, and my own personal observations I knew you liked to drop a lot of names. And it was fairly obvious that you were pretty smitten with yourself. But I had no idea how petty you could be until a little research on Dojang Digest. You remember DD don't you Glenn? And all the friends you made. 

At any rate, I figured everyone is worth a few opportunities to prove themselves. Unfortunately, you failed to do so. I just don't see you growing out of the need to continually try to get a rise out of people in your posts. And then playing the victim when they call you on it. I just can't respect that level of maturity. Perhaps you simply crave the attention? 

So this is in all likelyhood my last response to you. Feel free to keep stalking me from thread to thread. In a way I suppose it is flattering. Hugs and kisses from the_ Self-Defense Guy. _

I believe Twin Fist said it best when he simply stated, "I don't have any use for you".


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> So this is in all likelyhood my last response to you.



No problem. And yes I do remember DD. Where is it now?   I will leave you with this though, we are known by the company we keep.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Kong Soo Do said:


> Hi Puunui,
> 
> I mentioned early on in one of our ping-pong matches that some very good folks were PMing me with little tidbits about you. Well, the PM's keep coming as does the phone calls. From those folks, and my own personal observations I knew you liked to drop a lot of names. And it was fairly obvious that you were pretty smitten with yourself. But I had no idea how petty you could be until a little research on Dojang Digest. You remember DD don't you Glenn? And all the friends you made.
> 
> At any rate, I figured everyone is worth a few opportunities to prove themselves. Unfortunately, you failed to do so. I just don't see you growing out of the need to continually try to get a rise out of people in your posts. And then playing the victim when they call you on it. I just can't respect that level of maturity. Perhaps you simply crave the attention?
> 
> So this is in all likelyhood my last response to you. Feel free to keep stalking me from thread to thread. In a way I suppose it is flattering. Hugs and kisses from the_ Self-Defense Guy. _
> 
> I believe Twin Fist said it best when he simply stated, "I don't have any use for you".


That makes 3 of us.  As Ive said before, some people get so high up in an org (not just in MA's but all walks of life), that they are simply not used to people not bowing down to their every word. Suddenly, they come to an open forum where people have their own opinions and theories and these people think that their word is gospel and we should just accept anything they say. The thing that sets apart certain posters (Terry, daniel, earl etc etc), is that while they have years of experience and a heap of knowledge they still respect and take onboard the opinions of other posters. Forums work because everyone can get together and throw ideas around and learn. As soon as someone comes along acting all high and mighty thinking their views and opinions are somehow more valid than others, then the whole balance gets thrown out. But then as I was told on here once - "what would I know, Im only a first dan"


----------



## troubleenuf

Actually I have seen just the opposite.  More and more people are seeing the Kukkiwon as just an entity that will take your money and send you a piece of paper with nothing behind it.  The treasure chest once found is empty so to speak.  There is nothing in that piece of paper that will make you better.   



puunui said:


> Maybe not. Or maybe so, because not having Kukkiwon certification does limits one's options, and one's student's options. The fact of the matter is that today more so than yesterday, more people are aware of Kukkiwon certification and more people desire Kukkiwon certification than ever. Look at all the crazy things people do to obtain it. For some people, it's like the Treasure of Sierra Madre, they want it, and they want to keep others from getting it. To me, Kukkiwon certification should be available for everyone, that everyone can and should receive it automatically as a consequence of receiving poom or dan level promotions in Taekwondo. It is certainly not some sort of treasure than needs to be horded.


----------



## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> Actually I have seen just the opposite.  More and more people are seeing the Kukkiwon as just an entity that will take your money and send you a piece of paper with nothing behind it.  The treasure chest once found is empty so to speak.  There is nothing in that piece of paper that will make you better.



Is that how you feel about Kukkiwon certification? And when you say "empty", do you mean like how the sacred scroll in Kung Fu Panda was empty?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

troubleenuf said:


> Actually I have seen just the opposite.  More and more people are seeing the Kukkiwon as just an entity that will take your money and send you a piece of paper with nothing behind it.  The treasure chest once found is empty so to speak.


Not sure why anyone would think this.  The Kukkiwon does not take your money directly and the amount that they ask for registration is comparatively negligible.  It is instructors and school owners who are taking money from students.  Fourth dan and higher instructors are invested with the authority to recommend a candidate for promotion.  The Kukkiwon does not police their choice because the Kukkiwon is not designed to police schools.  There are no 'member schools'; only individuals who hold rank, some of whom are fourth dan or higher and some of whom own schools.  

If the Kukkiwon was policing schools, then people would complain that this 'ferrin bunch o' guys I don know from Adam' are telling us Amuricans how to run our schools.  How dare they?



troubleenuf said:


> There is nothing in that piece of paper that will make you better.


And there never was.  Anymore than a superbowl ring makes the players on the NFL champion team any better.  Hard work, practice, and good instruction make you better.  The paper is merely proof of registration.

Daniel


----------



## ralphmcpherson

troubleenuf said:


> Actually I have seen just the opposite.  More and more people are seeing the Kukkiwon as just an entity that will take your money and send you a piece of paper with nothing behind it.  The treasure chest once found is empty so to speak.  There is nothing in that piece of paper that will make you better.


I have to agree with this, and I know people who will say that Im saying that because Im 'anti kukkiwon' (which Im certainly not, Ive seen some great kukkiwon tkdists), but I hear more and more negative things about the kukkiwon all the time. I can understand people emersed in the kukkiwon system defending it because they are so engrained in the whole thing, but from an outsider looking in, I just dont hear a lot of positives other than the fact that your rank is 'transferable', but if you dont know the kukkiwon curriculum (such is my case), then I dont really see what it offers. I have the option of getting a kukkiwon certification through my GM but have never really seen the point.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have to agree with this, and I know people who will say that Im saying that because Im 'anti kukkiwon' (which Im certainly not, Ive seen some great kukkiwon tkdists), but I hear more and more negative things about the kukkiwon all the time. I can understand people emersed in the kukkiwon system defending it because they are so engrained in the whole thing, but from an outsider looking in, I just dont hear a lot of positives other than the fact that your rank is 'transferable', but if you dont know the kukkiwon curriculum (such is my case), then I dont really see what it offers.


Pretty much the same benefit as rank in any organization.  I'm not actually defending the Kukkiwon; simply stating facts.  If people are going to rant about the KKW in an online typed format, then they should be accurate in what they are ranting about.  If you want to debate the merits of the forms or of the content of the curriculum that is a different story, but that isn't what people are doing.  They are leveling criticism and supporting their criticism with what amounts to straw man arguments.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I have the option of getting a kukkiwon certification through my GM but have never really seen the point.


If you don't know the Kukkiwon curriculum, then why do you have the option?  And who's curriculum is it?  Just curious.  

Daniel


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Pretty much the same benefit as rank in any organization.  I'm not actually defending the Kukkiwon; simply stating facts.  If people are going to rant about the KKW in an online typed format, then they should be accurate in what they are ranting about.  If you want to debate the merits of the forms or of the content of the curriculum that is a different story, but that isn't what people are doing.  They are leveling criticism and supporting their criticism with what amounts to straw man arguments.
> 
> 
> If you don't know the Kukkiwon curriculum, then why do you have the option?  And who's curriculum is it?  Just curious.
> 
> Daniel


We once were kukkiwon, 15-20 years ago (I think, well before I started). Long story short, we are a club stuck in the 'dark ages', basically our GM teaches everything identically to the way he did in the late 60's- early 70's. All I know is that when I watch kukkiwon clubs in my area do a demo it is very different looking to what we do, shorter stances, less punching in sparring, different forms etc. Im always hearing that kukkiwon tkd continues to evolve (which is not necessarilly a bad thing), so I imagine we are doing kukkiwon tkd from 30 or 40 years ago. My GM has decent rank in kukkiwon and his instructors who've been with him for 30 years have a couple of kukkiwon certs from their early days. I asked my instructor (7th dan 32 years training) what the difference between taegeks and palgwes are and he replied "what is a taegek form?". So technically we teach kukkiwon stuff to a degree and have the ability to promote students with kukkiwon certification, but realistically we are really out of the loop so to speak.


----------



## mastercole

Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay Puunui, let's have an open diologue with each other. To begin with, I'm not angry, bitter or resentful towards you. I am frustrated with you and I'll explain why. It seems that in the majority of the threads I've authored, or posts that I've made in response to anothers thread you appear right after with some type of negative reply. My perception is that if I say 'white' youre determined to say 'black'. I have to date, reached out three separate times to formulate a peace between us. Twice on the open board and once to your email. You never responded via email and the one time on the board you did half-respond was less than favorable. The combination of this and ping-ponging back and forth with you over mostly trivial details gets tiresome.
> 
> However...
> 
> If this is your way of reaching out a hand in peace and friendship then you'll find an open hand in return. You are entitled to your opinion. But the reverse is equally true; I'm entitled to my opinion. And our respective opinions are based upon our individual experiences. I'm not out to make an enemy and I'm not out to disrespect anyone. But I'm not out to be disrespected either.
> 
> You seem to be very knowledgeable on Korean history. That's fine. You also seem to hold the KKW in high regard and perhaps have had a good experience with them. I'm happy that you have. Not everyone unfortunately can say the same. And to be fair, it is not the KKW in-and-of-itself but some....and I repeat some that operate high within its ranks. My instructor is GM Dunn. He is former NYPD and I have the utmost respect for him, his training and his teaching ability. And yes, we have that 'cop-bond' between us.
> 
> He was very loyal to his Korean GM who brought him up to 3rd Dan KKW with the proper TIG for each grade. The full details of the story is not mine to tell, suffice it to say that when the Korean GM's brings in a Korean buddy who is a blue belt and instructs you to _bring him up to speed on all the forms_ and then within the year is sitting at the masters table as a 4th Dan...well it strains the relationship. Oh, this Korean gentleman was only 1st Dan KKW, but in the HMK chain of command he was a 4th Dan. So GM Dunn was ranked from 4th (KKW), to 5th,6th and 7th (non-KKW) by GM Andrew Davies who is 7th KKW (and I believe is the highest ranked KKW in GB, or at least one of the very highest). GM Davies has his 8th directly from GM Kim, Bok Man. GM Dunn did not bother with having the 5th and up KKW as he was satisfied with GM Davies and his organization. GM Dunn's 8th came from the five original school owners that formed the IKSDA. He didn't want it (and still doesn't) but we asked him to assume this rank since the IKSDA was partly his brain child and as our senior in the arts and in years we felt it appropriate. Call it a peer reviewed promotion. Call it an organizational appointment. But we wanted one central ranking authority and since he's been in the arts overall since the mid-60's, he was our choice. And in full disclosure, we all wanted him to take a 9th in our organization. He wouldn't do it.
> 
> 
> Under him I am officially a 6th Dan as of last year. This does not count my prior MA training before GM Dunn. He 'requested' that I continue to be exactly one grade below him since I will be the successor and he didn't want me jumping rank if something unexpected happened to him. I can see this as I've personally seen systems fall apart when the inheritor shoots up unexpectedly upon the passing of a founder. It happened in Uechi Ryu in the early 90's when Kammei Uechi (Kanei's son and Kanbun's grandson) took the reigns. He went from a much lower Dan to 10th in one shot. The result; Uechi Ryu broke into at least 16 different factions because of egos. I said fine as it was important to begin establishing a hierarchy. It wasn't about the rank. I have not physically worn a belt since 2005. Most of my students don't even know what rank I carry in the IKSDA. So I can be accepted and respected as a 7th Dan or not, at the individuals discretion. What matters to me is what I can do and what I can teach. And on that point I stand firm and I'll willingly go on deck with anyone that wants to see what I'm about. That isn't an internet challange and should not be taken as such. That is me saying judge me on what I do and teach and not what I wear.
> 
> So there it is and that's the deal.



Wow I looking around and found this!  How does that work, you guys all meet at wing stop or Burger King and decide what DAN everyone is going to be?  And when you do decide, does it actually make a difference


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not sure why anyone would think this.  The Kukkiwon does not take your money directly and the amount that they ask for registration is comparatively negligible.  It is instructors and school owners who are taking money from students.




There you go. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The instructors and school owners who are taking money from students are the ones saying that you do not need Kukkiwon certification, that my own kinkos printed certificate is more "valuable" because I know you my student and therefore I can grade you, that you don't need some expensive certificate from Korea signed by someone you do not know. The people that I know who do not give out Kukkiwon certification to their students do so for mainly three reasons, money, control or inability. Money, because they want to keep the entire promotion fee,   control because they do not want their students having Kukkiwon certification and being able to go to another school, or inability to issue Kukkiwon certification because they don't have it. However, often times these instructors are out there busy trying hard to make sure they have their own Kukkiwon certification. That really is the bottom line, money, control and ability issues, irrespective of how they want to blame the Kukkiwon for whatever. 

The fact of the matter is that the Kukkiwon is certifying more people today than ever in the US and other countries. We are up to 7 million Kukkiwon poom and dan holders. Just a couple few of years ago it was 5 million. I have the exact numbers somewhere. 

If people want to protest and treasure their dojang certificate then that is fine. If people want to criticize, complain and voice their negative "opinion" of the Kukkiwon, they are certainly able to do that as well. Go stand on the top of the mountain and scream if that makes them feel better about the evil nasty good for nothing Kukkiwon. 

But I sincerely hope that they don't wake up one day with their faded dojang certificates and realize that they got left behind, bitter and angry that they could have and should have gotten Kukkiwon certification and did not. I know too many terrible tales of woe like that to count. USTC was created in part to try and help people in this boat, but there are so many sad stories out there.... 

I told this story before but it is worth repeating. There was a gentleman that I met on a trip to Korea once. There were a lot of distinguished people who were part of the tour and also this gentleman who was a very nice likeable person. He was a 40 year practitioner who had a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan but a dojang 7th Dan. We visited all over the place, Kukkiwon, WTF and got all these beautiful certificates whereever we went. You could see it on this person's face how disappointed and disillusioned he was feeling, visiting all these places that were only a picture on a webpage for him previously, meeting those that actually worked at the Kukkiwon and realizing that the Kukkiwon was not an evil place, that it was made up of sincere and very nice people who only wanted to help Taekwondoin understand and grow. You could see it on his face that he felt his dojang 7th Dan, really didn't amount to much, that he could have and should have gotten Kukkiwon certification when he had the opportunity but didn't, that he only had himself to blame for his situation. It took a trip to Korea for him to realize that all his preconceptions were really misconceptions, that he was thinking negative thoughts all these years, for nothing, that the Kukkiwon was there to help him, not hurt him. 

Now when I see the seeds of that same story being planted today, I try to help, but what can you do if someone doesn't want help? I guess everyone has to follow their own path, no matter how potentially self destructive it can be, even if they cannot see it at the moment. 

But everyday, I care less and less about people like that. Soon I think I won't care at all. After seven and a half years of living in the dark times, a lot of my seniors and friends are thinking this way. Why should we care about other people, especially the disrespectful juniors? And who says we have to be the ones who save the world? After all, we are doing pretty good for ourselves, in a terrible economy that doesn't look like it will ever turn around. That's the main thing, right? Maybe we should just go with the flow and the times and think about ourselves, like so many of our juniors do.


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> The people that I know who do not give out Kukkiwon certification to their students do so for mainly three reasons, money, control or inability. Money, because they want to keep the entire promotion fee,   control because they do not want their students having Kukkiwon certification and being able to go to another school, or inability to issue Kukkiwon certification because they don't have it.




you forgot the big one

cuz the kookiejuan is a worthless, waste of time and space that means NOTHING and gives the student NOTHING that they need UNLESS they are interested in competing.


IF they want to compete in Korean Kickboxing, then it MIGHT come in handy

otherwise? waste of space

ANY student can go to any other school, if you are good, your rank gets recognized and accepted, if you suck, it doesnt matter what piece of paper you have, you suck.


----------



## andyjeffries

Twin Fist said:


> the kookiejuan is...



Do you think this is being funny?  Kukkiwon is a Korean word and making a play on words with it just makes the person look like they're trying to be funny and missing the mark.

It would be similar to saying "you teakwood practitioners...", it's so dreary and unoriginal.

If you have constructive comments to make, I'll happily join in the debate but I literally switch off when someone acts so disrespectfully.


----------



## Twin Fist

yes, i think it is hilarious, cuz the whole idea is friggin kookie as hell.

and the KKW doesnt deserve any respect if they are ok with a SIX YEAR OLD getting a BB


----------



## Kong Soo Do

troubleenuf said:


> Actually I have seen just the opposite. * More and more people are seeing the Kukkiwon as just an entity that will take your money and send you a piece of paper with nothing behind it.*  The treasure chest once found is empty so to speak.  *There is nothing in that piece of paper that will make you better.*





> Originally Posted by *ralphmcpherson*
> I have to agree with this, and I know people who will say that Im saying  that because Im 'anti kukkiwon' (which Im certainly not, Ive seen some  great kukkiwon tkdists), but I hear more and more negative things about  the kukkiwon all the time.* I can understand people emersed in the  kukkiwon system defending it because they are so engrained in the whole  thing*, but from an outsider looking in, I just dont hear a lot of  positives other than the fact that your rank is 'transferable', but if  you dont know the kukkiwon curriculum (such is my case), then I dont  really see what it offers. I have the option of getting a kukkiwon  certification through my GM but have never really seen the point.



To begin with, yes there are many people who have spent hundreds and even thousands of dollars for pieces of paper from Korea.  They have invested themselves in the KKW.  It is their identity and it is a challenge when people say they don't need or want it.  They take it personally, which is rather odd.  And they will rail against anyone who dares to say so as they feel it diminishes who they are.  They are so swallowed up with trying to be Asian that they will turn a blind eye towards unethical business practices i.e. back door and airport promotions as has been seen in this thread.  They accept the, 'don't question me' from their Korean GM overlords.  The click their heels and bow to the ground before them since that is where their next promotion is coming from.  Personally, that sickens me and speaks of very shallow or non-existent integrity.

A KKW certificate is a piece of paper, written partly in a language most don't read and issued by a body that very probably has never actually seen you train or test.  They don't know you from Adam but as long as your check clears your qualified.  It has no value.  The value is in what the person knows and what they can do.  If someone  desperately needs to spend the money for perceived recognition then more power to them.  Why do you think the KKW certs have a sliding scale in expense?  Is it a better piece of paper at 2nd Dan?  Or is it that they've got you sucked in and can charge just a wee bit more for paper?  You decide.  You personal instructor's signature on the back of a dinner napkin is worth far more than a foreign bodies piece of paper because he actually knows you and knows your training.  

And of course you can't forget that these same people that whine and cry that the KKW is so wonderful are probably the same people that charge a fee on top of the fee for the piece of paper from Korea that you don't really need.  So of course their going to be pissed off that someone dare challenge the necessity of a KKW cert.  It might take money out of their pockets.  And these are the same folks by-and-large that have no problem promoting little children of 6 years old AND EVEN YOUNGER by their own words.  They try to make it sound like no big deal.  They try to put a philosophical spin on it.  They try to legitimize it in anyway possible.  The truth is that they've sold out to commercialism rather than stringent standards.  

They will try to fall back on, 'well we now have 7 million yada yada'.  Well a fool and their money are soon parted.  Anyone remember 'pet rocks'.  Lot of people had those as well and the funny thing is there worth about the same i.e. a rock and a piece of paper.  

There are some great MA'ists here that get it and fully understand it makes no difference what belt you wear or where your cert comes from.  They have high standards for themselves and their students.  They have morals and integrity.  There are also some flagrant sell-outs here that are afraid to speak out on racial discrimination, airport promotions and freely admit they'll promote anyone, of any age as long as the check clears.  They seem to go hand-in-hand with the KKW and those high up in that organization.  So as someone said recently, you're known by the company you keep.  Those people disgust me.

Okay, the sell-outs can now come in and cut-n-paste my post and offer sarcastic remarks.


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> To begin with, yes there are many people who have spent hundreds and even thousands of dollars for pieces of paper from Korea.  They have invested themselves in the KKW.  It is their identity and it is a challenge when people say they don't need or want it.  They take it personally, which is rather odd.



I don't take it personally.  If you don't want or need KKW certification, that's your call.  I recognise that the KKW hasn't seen me train and I'm happy that my Grandmaster assessed me and decided I'm worth the rank I hold.  The Kukkiwon certificate just means if I go to another Kukkiwon club, I'm a closer part of the family than if I had a kwan/dojang rank.



Kong Soo Do said:


> They accept the, 'don't question me' from their Korean GM overlords.  The click their heels and bow to the ground before them since that is where their next promotion is coming from.  Personally, that sickens me and speaks of very shallow or non-existent integrity.



Remembering you're doing a Korean martial art; then to a certain extent Korean values/behaviour comes in to it.  Koreans live in a very heirarchical society.  I may ask questions of my Grandmaster (who isn't Korean, but is asian) but not in a "what the hell are you doing" type of way, but in a respectful kind of way.  I also speak the same way to my non-asian seniors, so this isn't an attitude towards Koreans.

It also has nothing to do with where my next promotion's coming from (as that's a while away).

It has to do with respect and courtesy.



Kong Soo Do said:


> A KKW certificate is a piece of paper, written partly in a language most don't read and issued by a body that very probably has never actually seen you train or test.



I agree



Kong Soo Do said:


> They don't know you from Adam but as long as your check clears your qualified.



The Kukkiwon operates a Hieararchy of Trust.  They don't know me (aside from a few emails and an entry in a database).  But they know my Grandmaster and his Grandmaster.  There is a chain that they trust people from the top down to act correctly.  They aren't certifying that they've seen me, they're certify that somewhere in the chain between me and the top guy there is someone they've seen and they're happy for them to promote others.

I see it as the Kukkiwon doesn't promote people, the instructors do that. The Kukkiwon certifies people that instructors have already promoted.  This may not be quite correct (as I think the Kukkiwon forms are recommendation for promotion) but it's a helpful model for my view.

I was going to reply to the rest, but to be honest I'm a bit busy.

The Kukkiwon isn't evil, it's an educational facility that issues certificates.  Do you need it, no.  Should you complain if others want it, hell no.  Should you issue blanket statements, offensive to a large group of those people just because you think differently.  I'll leave the answer as an exercise for the reader...


----------



## Kong Soo Do

andyjeffries said:


> Remembering you're doing a Korean martial art; then to a certain extent Korean values/behaviour comes in to it.



Is immoral and/or unethical behavior part of the Korean value/behavior system.  And to be clear, I'm not saying all Koreans act this way and I've made that clear before.  But some do...don't they.  That isn't a question, that is a fact so let's be honest about it.  And yep, non-Koreans have followed suit which is obvious from comments in this very thread.  And since, as you've pointed out, this is a Korean system...I wonder who the non-Koreans learned it from...



> The Kukkiwon operates a Hieararchy of *Trust*.  They don't know me (aside  from a few emails and an entry in a database).  But they know my  Grandmaster and his Grandmaster.  *There is a chain that they trust  people from the top down to act correctly.*



Interesting.  Does this mean the people at the top should be acting correctly as well so that it flows down the chain-of-command?  Gosh, has there ever been anything 'incorrect' at the top of the KKW?  Anyone splitting with some cash?  Going to prison?  Mass resignations?  Lots of politics?  I think that is a legitimate question.



> The Kukkiwon isn't evil, it's an educational facility that issues certificates.  Do you need it, no.



Correct.



> Should you complain if others want it, hell no.  Should you issue  blanket statements, offensive to a large group of those people just  because you think differently.  I'll leave the answer as an exercise for  the reader...



Blanket statement or legitimate questions and concerns?  Let the reader decide for themselves.  And let's be very clear.  If there is an honest KKW instructor here (and I'm sure we have a bunch of them) that hasn't sold out to commercialism and unethical behavior then I'm not talking to you.  Rock on and keep on keeping on.  But if I'm chapping the hide of those that turn a blind eye to unethical behavior and then try to justify it with long, flowing arrogant posts...then saddle up and get some vasaline.  

Oh, I know I'm opening up myself to their wrath and scorn.  I know they'll pick my posts apart.  That's what they do.  They'll look at my website and see if they can sniff something out to throw on me.  Go for it.  I went from 6th to 7th in ONE YEAR.  Jump all over it.  Oh and 'master' Cole we actually met at a Carvel Ice Cream shop.


----------



## ETinCYQX

I'm not questioning anything you do because I don't know a thing about Kong Soo Do aside from it appears to be modified TKD. I also don't care what Dan rank you hold in KSD, and you certainly don't care what I think of your Dan rank in KSD being that you are the first I've heard of it. 

Once again, the Kukkiwon does not babysit instructors. To expect them to do so is asinine. The certificate and the belt hold a responsibility as an instructor and some people will not take it seriously. Not my fault, not my problem. My skills and my students speak for me, not preconceptions based on my certificate being KKW. 

Interesting dynamic, actually. We as KKW TKDin get looked down on by outsiders/smaller orgs these days. Not too long ago, it was the other way around.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

ETinCYQX said:


> Interesting dynamic, actually. We as KKW TKDin get looked down on by outsiders/smaller orgs these days. Not too long ago, it was the other way around.



Now that is an excellent comment!  A some point, a KKW cert DID hold a LOT of value for a LOT of people.  At some point it was held as a standard in the MA community.  So what changed?  Why have Korean GM's left the KKW?  Why have non-Korean GM's followed suit?  Is it because of inappropriate conduct at the top and within the organization?  Again, let the reader decide for themselves.

And AGAIN, if you want to belong to the KKW and promote it to your students and have high standards and wish to do your part to make the KKW better then thumbs up.  I'm against those turning a blind eye to unethical behavior and portraying the KKW as something it isn't.  Don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's rain.  I don't think a man should go from blue belt to 4th Dan in a year with little more than a year and a half total in TKD just because he's Korean and buddies with the Korean GM.  That's just me.  And before someone says that has nothing to do with the KKW..yes it does.  The Korean GM is an 8th Dan in the KKW and held a position in it at the time.  He used that to accelerate this individual both within the Kwan and the KKW.  And it is a slap in the face of you folks that have busted your butts to do it the right way.  And those that know first-hand of such conduct and turn a blind eye...well I'll just leave it there.  I've already made my feelings clear. As have a number of people in this thread.

Let the reader decide for themselves.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> If people want to protest and treasure their dojang certificate then that is fine. If people want to criticize, complain and voice their negative "opinion" of the Kukkiwon, they are certainly able to do that as well. Go stand on the top of the mountain and scream if that makes them feel better about the evil nasty good for nothing Kukkiwon.


What I don't understand is why they feel the need to protest at all.  I have dojang certs that I treasure for personal reasons.  They are not better than an organizational certificate, and for those who have organizational certificates, I am am happy for them.  

Why should I rant against the Korean Kumdo Association, the World Haedong Gumdo Association, or the International Hankumdo Federation?  I like what I do and how our program is set up; good fit for me.  If the others are not my cup of tea or if I simply am not involved with them for whatever reason, then I simply will do what I do and be happy for those for whom those orgs *are* a good fit.

The fact is that sometimes, people need to break off, go independent, or whatever term they choose to use.  For those who feel led in a different direction, be happy in your new direction.  But also, they should respect that not everyone feels led in a different direction.

When I shifted my focus from taekwondo to kumdo and hapkido, I did not feel that those who continue to focus on taekwondo are somehow missing the boat, being took, or choosing a lesser path.

I'm happy in my chosen direction.  I am happy for you in your chosen direction.  And I am happy for Kong Soo Do in his chosen direction.

Daniel


----------



## TaekwondoDad

Kong Soo Do said:


> Oh and 'master' Cole we actually met at a Carvel Ice Cream shop.


 
Getting a bit personal? I don't think anyone who has met, knows or knows of Master Cole would ever see a reason for master to be in quotes. 

There really seems to be a lack of courtesy and respect coming from one side of the argument. I had thought courtesy and respect were integral parts of TKD, but it seems there are those who consider respect to be "kowtowing to Korean overlords" and just to prove they aren't racist decide to demean everyone else they disagree with while they are at it. 

From an outsider's point of view, it seems everything comes down to lineage and both sides are arguing for it and against it. When explaining why they don't need/want the Kukkiwon, people seem to explain how their master or instructor got his rank and why it is valid and the validity this bestows on their own rank. Despite the protestations of being judged on ability rather than a piece of paper, etc., the comments about how one's instructor/master received his rank and the value of an instructor's signature on the back of a napkin all lead to lineage. Does the Kukkiwon not serve as a vital resource for those who use it in as that it confirms lineage? If the need ever came to change dojangs/instructors for my daughter, going to another Kukkiwon school would confirm, at the least, the instructor's Dan ranking and that such ranking was bestowed by another Master registered with the Kukkiwon who earned his rank accordingly?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

TaekwondoDad said:


> Getting a bit personal?



Responding in the same manner as he posted to me.  So are you suggesting he was getting a bit personal first?



> There really seems to be a lack of courtesy and respect coming from one side of the argument


Really?  Just one side?  Perhaps you need to take off your blinders sir.  Or are you completely unbiased in this discussion?


----------



## Grenadier

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this conversation civil.  If you do not like what someone has to say, then you can use the "ignore this poster" feature that's part of the vBulletin software.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


----------



## TaekwondoDad

Kong Soo Do said:


> Responding in the same manner as he posted to me. So are you suggesting he was getting a bit personal first?
> 
> Really? Just one side? Perhaps you need to take off your blinders sir. Or are you completely unbiased in this discussion?


 
I will cede the above are valid points and thank you for your courteous reply.  

If I may ask you two questions:

1) are you questioning the validity of Master Cole's rank?

2) Do you deny the Kukkiwon's validity/usefulness in confirming lineage?  I am not saying that every master who has a Kukkiwon certificate is above reproach.  I don't think this can be said about any organization.  Several people seem to agree in other threads that there is a significant amount of fraud among people who open TKD schools.  It would seem having a way to verify that someone has the rank they claim and that it was vouched for by someone else who is also verified goes a long way to preventing fraudulent resumes.


----------



## Archtkd

Kong Soo Do said:


> and wish to do your part to make the KKW better then thumbs up. I'm against those turning a blind eye to unethical behavior and portraying the KKW as something it isn't. Don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's rain. I don't think a man should go from blue belt to 4th Dan in a year with little more than a year and a half total in TKD just because he's Korean and buddies with the Korean GM. That's just me. And before someone says that has nothing to do with the KKW..yes it does. The Korean GM is an 8th Dan in the KKW and held a position in it at the time. He used that to accelerate this individual both within the Kwan and the KKW. And it is a slap in the face of you folks that have busted your butts to do it the right way. And those that know first-hand of such conduct and turn a blind eye...well I'll just leave it there. I've already made my feelings clear. As have a number of people in this thread.
> 
> Let the reader decide for themselves.


 
I think many of us here would agree that the stuff you describe above is very wrong and shouldn't happen. But we can also opine that it's not right to use the sad incident, and maybe many others like it, to conclude and declare that the entire Kukkiwon board, its dedicated teachers, leaders and its certificates are useless. Somewhere in this discussion we have to put things into better perspective by considering the Kukkiwon's reach and area of influece. How many of us here can say they can totally manage the external affairs of a 30-member dojang in their small town, leave alone the affairs of a martial art and sport pursued by millions of people worldwide?


On a more pleasant note, we should agree that the 6 -year old Kukkiwon poom belt holder is Awesome!!! 

The little boy has done more for Taekwondo than many of us adults who claim to have "real" blackbelts earned in brutal tests, but have really done nothing significant for the martial art and humanity with those belts. As of the last count, this thread, which is only six days old, had 2,443 views and 172 replies. The discussions, by many knowleadgable adults, have been good, passionate, loud, abrrasve and stupid at times, but in the end they've created lots of publicity for Taekwondo. 

While many of us have written bitterly about the percieved demerits of teaching Kukkiwon Taekwondo to young children and recognizing their efforts toward that end, the discussion also has informed others that there are places and opportunity for kids to learn and earn recognition for their efforts. 

My son Benjie, for one, is inspired by the story of the six-year old boy. Benjie, despite my inhibitions and reluctance to start him too early, began hanging out at our dojang -- which does not accepts kids younger than seven -- when he was 4 1/2. The bulk of our students are actually adults. 

I let Benjie begin training when he was five because he started working out alone at the reception desk area, by copying what the other kids where doing on the training floor. He initially trained once a week, then twice and now shows up three times weekly. He is now 6 1/2, a purble belt (4th Geup), who should be ready for his 1st poom belt testing in 2 years. He is fluid with basic stuff for his rank, forms -- Chon Ji through Yuk Jang --, can break 1/2 inch pine with multiple hand and kicking techniques, and can spar pretty well. His one-step self defense and grab self defense tehniques are still shaky. He, like the other kids 7-10 -- will not be required to do weapons self defense in tests, although he is learning some of the stuff by observing adults and begging some of them to teach him. 

Overall, Taekwondo seems to be helping Benjie to become very fit in mind and body, focus at school and become a well disciplined big brother at home. He also is developing good management and people skills. I don't see how that's a bad thing especially when we consider how so many children in this country face ignorance, mental illness, obesity, and tons of other societal problems.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Why should I rant against the Korean Kumdo Association, the World Haedong Gumdo Association, or the International Hankumdo Federation?



Is your kumdo based on Hankumdo? I know that your background is in IHF Hapkido, but not made the possible connection to Hankumdo until now.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Is immoral and/or unethical behavior part of the Korean value/behavior system.  And to be clear, I'm not saying all Koreans act this way and I've made that clear before.  But some do...don't they.  That isn't a question, that is a fact so let's be honest about it.  And yep, non-Koreans have followed suit which is obvious from comments in this very thread.  And since, as you've pointed out, this is a Korean system...I wonder who the non-Koreans learned it from...
> 
> I went from 6th to 7th in ONE YEAR.



Why is it unethical to go from blue belt to 4th Dan in one year but not unethical to go from 6th to 7th Dan in one year? If you look at the Kukkiwon time in grade requirements, it would take six years to go zero to 4th Dan (if you were promoted to 1st Dan today) and it would also take six years to go from 6th to 7th Dan. Why object on ethical or moral grounds in one situation but then accept rank in another, when the time in grade requirements are exactly the same?


----------



## puunui

Archtkd said:


> Overall, Taekwondo seems to be helping Benjie to become very fit in mind and body, focus at school and become a well disciplined big brother at home. He also is developing good management and people skills. I don't see how that's a bad thing especially when we consider how so many children in this country face ignorance, mental illness, obesity, and tons of other societal problems.



I agree. Kudos to your son as well, taking the initiative like he has.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> Is your kumdo based on Hankumdo? I know that your background is in IHF Hapkido, but not made the possible connection to Hankumdo until now.


No.  My GM has a kendo background and the forms he uses are ones that I have not seen elsewhere.  He said that they come from Choson sebeop, but I have never been able to find them or verify their origins outside of the school.  The partnered hyeong look more like what you'd see in a kenjutsu school.

None of what we do resembles Hankumdo or Haidong geomdo.

Daniel


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> No.  My GM has a kendo background and the forms he uses are ones that I have not seen elsewhere.  He said that they come from Choson sebeop, but I have never been able to find them or verify their origins outside of the school.



I did a quick search and found this article on choson sebeop. The founder sounds highly qualified and apparently has written a lot of books on the subject. 

http://mookas.us/media_view.asp?news_no=701


----------



## andyjeffries

Archtkd said:


> My son Benjie, for one, is inspired by the story of the six-year old boy.



Then aside from all the arguments and personal sniping in this thread, I'm glad I posted the OP.

My own son is 8 and probably won't make 1st poom until he's 12 (he started at 6 and is now an 8th geup, my instructor grades them slowly!).


----------



## Archtkd

andyjeffries said:


> Then aside from all the arguments and personal sniping in this thread, I'm glad I posted the OP.
> 
> My own son is 8 and probably won't make 1st poom until he's 12 (he started at 6 and is now an 8th geup, my instructor grades them slowly!).


 
You know one thing, and perhaps the most important think, which I forgot to say is that these childrent make us want to be better fathers and martial artists. If that is not a good and important, I don't know what is.


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> Why is it unethical to go from blue belt to 4th Dan in one year but not unethical to go from 6th to 7th Dan in one year?



there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th or 7th

there is a HUGE difference between blue and 4th dan

if you were seriously asking that question, you have much to learn about martial arts....


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th or 7th
> 
> there is a HUGE difference between blue and 4th dan




I don't think there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th and 7th Dan, having been through those levels myself. And if there is no difference between 6th and 7th Dan, then Earl's comment comes to mind, the one about whether someone has 30 years experience, or one year of experience 30 times.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Why is it unethical to go from blue belt to 4th Dan in one year but not unethical to go from 6th to 7th Dan in one year? If you look at the Kukkiwon time in grade requirements, it would take six years to go zero to 4th Dan (if you were promoted to 1st Dan today) and it would also take six years to go from 6th to 7th Dan. Why object on ethical or moral grounds in one situation but then accept rank in another, when the time in grade requirements are exactly the same?


 
Let's take a look at that.  This individual had approx. 1 1/2 years total training time.  I don't know who brought him to blue belt, but apparently they didn't do a very good job as my instructor had to teach him all the forms, drills etc.  So I would say that 1 1/2 years is actually giving him a good six months.  So in that time, without actually teaching anyone else he went from blue belt to 4th Dan master (Kwan rank).  Do you find that a bit odd?  Seriously.  And apparently, the KKW 1st Dan he had was about to turn into a 2nd Dan KKW, again with less than normal KKW standard TIG.  

So yes, I'd say that from basically zero to 4th Dan master in 1 1/2 years (at the most) is unethical and I'd say it was a good ole boy thing.  I find that unethical.  I find that racially motivated.  That is my opinion.  

Now let's take a look at my 6th to 7th in a year.  First off, I'm not obligted to go by KKW TIG standards.  And let's be real clear on this point...many people in the KKW haven't had to abide by KKW TIG standards.  Be it for a legitimate reason, or not.  You cannot deny that.  Secondly, I had at that time 35 years in the arts.  I have taught over 1000 people.  I have run schools.  I have owned a school.  I have had students who have gone on to use what I taught them.  I have had students rise through the ranks and teach themselves.  And since MSK KSD is a blend of the totality of my training and not just TKD, I could simply start my 'clock' when I first put on a 1st Dan and began teaching which is 1986.  That is more than enough TIG.  

So I would submit that there is a rather large difference.  If someone doesn't want to see that as legitimate enough then that is fine.  I'll go back to something that you've stated that we're in total agreement on;



> Personally, I am not diminished or affected in any way if someone gets promoted to any rank.
> 
> Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem.
> 
> One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Twin Fist said:


> there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th or 7th
> 
> there is a HUGE difference between blue and 4th dan
> 
> if you were seriously asking that question, you have much to learn about martial arts....


 
He does have much to learn.  But that is okay since we're all on a journy.  And he knows there isn't much of a difference, its just a bait.


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> So GM Dunn was ranked from 4th (KKW), to 5th,6th and 7th (non-KKW) by GM Andrew Davies who is 7th KKW (and I believe is the highest ranked KKW in GB, or at least one of the very highest). GM Davies has his 8th directly from GM Kim, Bok Man.




There are two KKW 8th Dans in the UK - GM SHIN Tong Wan, GM Tony (Satwinder Singh) Vohra.  I don't know which one is more senior.  GM Andy Davies and his brother Master Chris Davies 7th Dan KKW are nice friendly guys.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> So yes, I'd say that from basically zero to 4th Dan master in 1 1/2 years (at the most) is unethical and I'd say it was a good ole boy thing.  I find that unethical.  I find that racially motivated.  That is my opinion.


Actually, I think that fifth is 'master' rank, though I have heard that first through sixth is master.  I don't know, but it also wouldn't make me blink either.  

Going from fourth geub to fourth dan certainly saved that guy a ton of cash.  So much for the KKW trying to get paid.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Now let's take a look at my 6th to 7th in a year.  First off, I'm not obligted to go by *KKW TIG standards*.  And let's be real clear on this point...many people in the KKW haven't had to abide by KKW TIG standards.  Be it for a legitimate reason, or not.  You cannot deny that.


The time in grade between dans is actually not Kukkiwon specific, and probably goes back to Judo and Shotokan.  I really don't care how long or how short your personal time in grade is between your last and your current grade, but you should not imply that this is some kind of 'kukkiwon' thing, because it isn't.

Daniel


----------



## Kong Soo Do

TaekwondoDad said:


> I will cede the above are valid points and thank you for your courteous reply.
> 
> If I may ask you two questions:
> 
> 1) are you questioning the validity of Master Cole's rank?
> 
> 2) Do you deny the Kukkiwon's validity/usefulness in confirming lineage? I am not saying that every master who has a Kukkiwon certificate is above reproach. I don't think this can be said about any organization. Several people seem to agree in other threads that there is a significant amount of fraud among people who open TKD schools. It would seem having a way to verify that someone has the rank they claim and that it was vouched for by someone else who is also verified goes a long way to preventing fraudulent resumes.


 
1.  I don't question his rank as his rank is unimportant to me.  I question his courtesy and integrity.  He makes a post just a couple of days ago saying he'll probably be off the board and if anyone would like to talk with him then email him.  Then all of a sudden, out of 13 pages of a thread he has to put in a sarcastic one liner aimed at me personally.  I believe that speaks volumes sir.  Would you agree?  Would you agree it was an unnecessary comment on his part perhaps?

2.  If used correctly, yes.  Can we all agree that maybe...just maybe things have been abused for commercial gain?  

The bottom line is this; most people would agree that I've tried to engage in a reasonable, professional conversation with both Puunui and Master Cole.  They apparently just aren't up for that the majority of the time.  And Punnui in particular is sniffing around looking for anything to cast a dispersion on me or my instructor...who isn't even here.  It is apparently 'to much work' for Punnui to simple email him directly but it isn't too much work to dig up old posts and video and make sarcastic threads and posts.  Can we perhaps agree that his behavior is less than stellar?  Can we agree that he just isn't going to 'play nice' with people that challenge his position on things?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Going from fourth geub to fourth dan certainly saved that guy a ton of cash. So much for the KKW trying to get paid.
> 
> Daniel


 
I don't know if it saved him any cash but it saved a lot of time that he might have actually had to spend training.


----------



## troubleenuf

Having done this also myself let me put in my lousy 2 cents worth.
going from blue belt to 4th Dan- a ton of learning- I was young full of energy, life and new to TKD.  Everything was a learning experience and I was young and stupid and willing to take a chance.
6th to 7th Dan. Older, slower, full of injuries and still stupid enough to think I could keep up with the young pups and dumb enough to prove I could. 
I think that about sums it up. 



Twin Fist said:


> there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th or 7th
> 
> there is a HUGE difference between blue and 4th dan
> 
> if you were seriously asking that question, you have much to learn about martial arts....


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> So yes, I'd say that from basically zero to 4th Dan master in 1 1/2 years (at the most) is unethical and I'd say it was a good ole boy thing.  I find that unethical.  I find that racially motivated.  That is my opinion.



I thought you were done responding to my posts? How is it racially motivated? What if a white american did the same thing for another white american, would that be racially motivated too? 

What do you think about someone who has no experience in an art and goes from white belt to 4th Dan after a weekend seminar? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Now let's take a look at my 6th to 7th in a year.  First off, I'm not obligted to go by KKW TIG standards.



Which comes to the point which I was hoping would come out of this discussion. You don't have to go by Kukkiwon standards that is true. But the reverse is true as well, that the Kukkiwon or the Kukkiwon instructors do not have to follow your standards or anyone else's standards either. No one has to follow anyone's standards but their own, which was my original point. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> And let's be real clear on this point...many people in the KKW haven't had to abide by KKW TIG standards.  Be it for a legitimate reason, or not.  You cannot deny that.



Actually one of the things that the Kukkiwon does try to hold firm on is time in grade. So even if you apply for a skip dan, one of the requirements is that you have enough time in grade for all the ranks you are trying to skip. There are things that one can do to shorten the time requirements, winning gold at the Olympics for example, but those are the exception to the rule, and like I have said before, there are always exceptions, for exceptional people. 





Kong Soo Do said:


> Secondly, I had at that time 35 years in the arts.  I have taught over 1000 people.  I have run schools.  I have owned a school.  I have had students who have gone on to use what I taught them.  I have had students rise through the ranks and teach themselves.  And since MSK KSD is a blend of the totality of my training and not just TKD, I could simply start my 'clock' when I first put on a 1st Dan and began teaching which is 1986.  That is more than enough TIG.



Fair enough. You don't want anyone questioning your promotions, so why do you feel the need to criticize a world wide institution like the Kukkiwon on their standards? Why not follow the golden rule and do as you want to be done to you? Personally, I don't care what you rank is, it doesn't affect me in the least bit whether you are a 1st or 10th Dan. You promotions or lack of promotions has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever, just like that six year old's 1st poom has no effect on you. So who cares if that GM wanted to promote someone from blue belt to 4th Dan. If he wants to do that, that's his business. If he has a different standard than you or I, again, that is his business. What do you care? I know I don't. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> So I would submit that there is a rather large difference.  If someone doesn't want to see that as legitimate enough then that is fine.  I'll go back to something that you've stated that we're in total agreement on;



I understand that you agree with respect to your own promotions. What I don't know yet is whether you agree with respect to what other people do. If you don't want anyone questioning your promotions, then why would you question others on their promotions?


----------



## troubleenuf

Actually I know of some that have went from non belt to black belt in weekend seminars in Kumdo and hapkido.  Not what I would call ligit and in my mind it puts a very poor light on their legitimate training in TKD by doing it.

What do you think about someone who has no experience in an art and goes from white belt to 4th Dan after a weekend seminar? 


I agree with this.  But the thing is you cant hype that the Kukkiwon is all "it" when it allows things to go on that are not up to its "standards" and everyone knows it is happening.  If the Kukkiwon is all that you say it is then the things that have been going on should not be happening.  That is what has turned me off to them.  


Which comes to the point which I was hoping would come out of this discussion. You don't have to go by Kukkiwon standards that is true. But the reverse is true as well, that the Kukkiwon or the Kukkiwon instructors do not have to follow your standards or anyone else's standards either. No one has to follow anyone's standards but their own, which was my original point. 




Actually one of the things that the Kukkiwon does try to hold firm on is time in grade. So even if you apply for a skip dan, one of the requirements is that you have enough time in grade for all the ranks you are trying to skip. There are things that one can do to shorten the time requirements, winning gold at the Olympics for example, but those are the exception to the rule, and like I have said before, there are always exceptions, for exceptional people.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I thought you were done responding to my posts?


 
If you post a question, in a professional tone and without the agenda I will respond in like manner.  



> What if a white american did the same thing for another white american, would that be racially motivated too?


 
Yes it would.  It would be a good ole boy promotion.  Particularly if the GM hasn't taken part in, or seen the training.  There is no justification for this amount of grade skipping.  Not only does it cheat the individual of valuable learning for the sake of walking around as a 'master', it cheapens the art as a whole.  

Yes, I suppose the GM can do whatever he wants.  His school, his rules.  That doesn't make it right, proper or wise to do.  



> What do you think about someone who has no experience in an art and goes from white belt to 4th Dan after a weekend seminar?


 
Do you really think that is acceptable?  Would you consider him a 'master'?  Seriously, would you?



> Which comes to the point which I was hoping would come out of this discussion. You don't have to go by Kukkiwon standards that is true. But the reverse is true as well, that the Kukkiwon or the Kukkiwon instructors do not have to follow your standards or anyone else's standards either. No one has to follow anyone's standards but their own, which was my original point.


 
That's fine.  How is that working out for them?  Again, serious question.


----------



## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> I agree with this.  But the thing is you cant hype that the Kukkiwon is all "it" when it allows things to go on that are not up to its "standards" and everyone knows it is happening.  If the Kukkiwon is all that you say it is then the things that have been going on should not be happening.  That is what has turned me off to them.




Some people would say that there are a lot of things wrong with the United States as a country. This or that or some other thing. But to me I love living in the US because it allows me the freedom to do the things that I want to do in an environment that I enjoy. I feel exactly the same way about the Kukkiwon and Kukki Taekwondo. Taekwondo has allowed me to meet and interact with people from around the world that I would otherwise not be in contact to. It has given me a reason to visit different parts of the country and the world for different events, places that I would never normally visit if it were not for Taekwondo. Taekwondo has also given me an outlet to express my creativity and natural curiosity in a positive manner. I also practice Hapkido and to tell you the truth I love Hapkido more than I do Taekwondo but it has not really given me the same sorts of opportunities that Taekwondo has. So maybe you are turned off by whatever, but not me. I am grateful that I have had the chance to grow in the manner that I have through it. I would be a different person if it weren't for Taekwondo and the Kukkiwon.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> If you post a question, in a professional tone and without the agenda I will respond in like manner.



Or perhaps you can assume that my question is a professional one and take it from there. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes it would.  It would be a good ole boy promotion.



What if someone said that is what your organization did, the committee promotes the head person who in turn promotes those that promoted him. Isn't that a good ole boy promotion as well? I don't know if you are caucasian, but assuming that you are, how would you respond if someone accused your past promotional practices as racist? I don't see any asian names in your dan registry, for example. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Particularly if the GM hasn't taken part in, or seen the training.  There is no justification for this amount of grade skipping.  Not only does it cheat the individual of valuable learning for the sake of walking around as a 'master', it cheapens the art as a whole.



And what art? Taekwondo? You and your organization changed the name to Kong Soo Do. So what is your stake in what the reputation of Taekwondo is or is not? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes, I suppose the GM can do whatever he wants.  His school, his rules.  That doesn't make it right, proper or wise to do.



If that is how you feel, then you should be prepared to have people make comments about your organization's promotional practices. In a lot of people's minds, one year between 6th and 7th Dan is not enough time in grade, no matter how much time has passed since your promotion to karate 1st Dan or what you think your justifications are. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> That's fine.  How is that working out for them?  Again, serious question.



It's working out fine as far as I can tell. Again, 7 million poom and dan holders, they must be doing something right. Frankly I think that the US alone should have that many Kukkiwon poom and dan holders by this point. 

And it is not that the Kukkiwon doesn't have standards. I can tell you that the Kukkiwon special test that was held at US Open a couple of years ago was a big problem for the Kukkiwon. A lot of people showed up and obviously did not know even the most basic material. There was a special poomsae seminar prior to the special test, and a whole bunch of people felt so poorly that they walked out and never even took their test. Of those that did take the test, many failed due to extremely poor technical ability. On top of that, USAT, who hosted the special seminar and test, kept a lot of the promotion fees and did not forward that to the Kukkiwon. Under the Kukkiwon promotion rules, a skip dan candidate is required to pay the promotion fee for all skipped ranks. So if you are going from 1st to 4th, you have to pay the promotion fee for 2nd, 3rd and 4th Dan. But USAT was submitting only the 4th Dan fee and keeping the rest. It was such a headache for the International Department that they swore never to do it again. 

The Kukkiwon recognizes that many American Taekwondoin failed to be timely promoted like they should have been. What they didn't realize is that perhaps one of the reasons why American Taekwondoin weren't promoted was because they failed to continue with their training and studies, and had one year of experience 30 times, instead of 30 years of experience. They also were not prepared to deal with the extreme disrespect and hostility they received when the some of the skip dan promotion recommendations could not be honored. I do not mind saying that it put a very sour taste in the Kukkiwon's mouth to see that aspect of Taekwondo to the point where they are extremely reluctant to move forward in this direction again, which makes for even more bitterness, hostility and resentment. 

I am beginning to think there is no solution for this. I think this is just the way it is at this point, which is why a growing number of my seniors as well as myself and Mastercole, feel like not helping anymore. For what? What is the point? 

A lot of people really enjoy reading the things that I write because to them I represent a very traditional way of thinking. It gives them a point of reference in which to access where they are on the scale of tradition vs. non-tradition. When they see people who oppose my viewpoint, they see it as the struggle between tradition and non-tradition. I notice that the gap seems to be getting larger as time passes by. One of my juniors said it best I think when he said that I am a kind, generous person who he would trust with his life, the only challenge being that you have to negotiate through the thick wall of tradition to get there. My response was that I didn't build the thick wall of tradition; that the wall was always there, and it was there for good reason.


----------



## troubleenuf

And if you vote and pay taxes you get the right to ***** about what is wrong about the country.  And if you have spent years sending applications and $$$ to the Kukkiwon then I expect that gives me the right to ***** about what is wrong with the Kukkiwon as well.  



puunui said:


> Some people would say that there are a lot of things wrong with the United States as a country. This or that or some other thing. But to me I love living in the US because it allows me the freedom to do the things that I want to do in an environment that I enjoy. I feel exactly the same way about the Kukkiwon and Kukki Taekwondo. Taekwondo has allowed me to meet and interact with people from around the world that I would otherwise not be in contact to. It has given me a reason to visit different parts of the country and the world for different events, places that I would never normally visit if it were not for Taekwondo. Taekwondo has also given me an outlet to express my creativity and natural curiosity in a positive manner. I also practice Hapkido and to tell you the truth I love Hapkido more than I do Taekwondo but it has not really given me the same sorts of opportunities that Taekwondo has. So maybe you are turned off by whatever, but not me. I am grateful that I have had the chance to grow in the manner that I have through it. I would be a different person if it weren't for Taekwondo and the Kukkiwon.


----------



## mastercole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan  
No. My GM has a kendo background and the forms he uses are ones that I have not seen elsewhere. He said that they come from Choson sebeop, but I have never been able to find them or verify their origins outside of the school.



puunui said:


> I did a quick search and found this article on choson sebeop. The founder sounds highly qualified and apparently has written a lot of books on the subject.
> 
> http://mookas.us/media_view.asp?news_no=701



Daniel, I thought that name looked familiar. I meet your Grandmaster at the 5th Korea Martial Art Forum, November 9, 2010 in the lecture hall at Korean National Sports University (Hankuk Chaedae) in Seoul.  Afterwards, we had dinner at the Chinese restaurant in Olympic Park. Hapkido's In Seon Seo (sp?), also some Kuk Sul Won senior, and some other unique Korean style leaders where there. I was there to see GM Yong Bok Lee, leader of Taekkyon.  He was on a panel that was discussing the relation between Taekwondo and Taekkyon.  One of the Taekkyon master's was telling me that your Grandmaster was undefeated in Kendo, which is a pretty amazing feat. They explained that he has been trying to revive ancient Korean sword arts. They had him stand up and addresse the panel of professors at the forum.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> What I don't know yet is whether you agree with respect to what other people do. If you don't want anyone questioning your promotions, then why would you question others on their promotions?



What was that old saying something about the pot calling the kettle black?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
> No. My GM has a kendo background and the forms he uses are ones that I have not seen elsewhere. He said that they come from Choson sebeop, but I have never been able to find them or verify their origins outside of the school.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel, I thought that name looked familiar. *I meet your Grandmaster at the 5th Korea Martial Art Forum, November 9, 2010 in the lecture hall at Korean National Sports University (Hankuk Chaedae) in Seoul. * Afterwards, we had dinner at the Chinese restaurant in Olympic Park. Hapkido's In Seon Seo (sp?), also some Kuk Sul Won senior, and some other unique Korean style leaders where there. I was there to see GM Yong Bok Lee, leader of Taekkyon.  He was on a panel that was discussing the relation between Taekwondo and Taekkyon.  One of the Taekkyon master's was telling me that your Grandmaster was undefeated in Kendo, which is a pretty amazing feat. They explained that he has been trying to revive ancient Korean sword arts. They had him stand up and addresse the panel of professors at the forum.
Click to expand...

Wish I were there!  Excellent article too!  Enjoyed it from beginning to end.

However, this gentleman is not my grand master.  My GM is Kim Hee Wk.  Our  partnered work looks much more like kenjutsu and our solo forms are fairly conservative ad likewise use a single edged curved sword; i.e. a katana.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

troubleenuf said:


> Actually I know of some that have went from non belt to black belt in weekend seminars in Kumdo and hapkido.  Not what I would call ligit and in my mind it puts a very poor light on their legitimate training in TKD by doing it.


I call this 'add an art workshop.'  Usually, the premise is that if you are of a certain level in an established art, say fourth or higher in TKD, then you are essentially being certified in the add on based upon previous experience.  If the person is being honest with themselves and is using the seminar to take a first step into a new art, and then follows is up with continued study and growth, it can be a positive.  

If they just want a belt and a piece of paper.... well there are cheaper and less time consuming avenues.



troubleenuf said:


> What do you think about someone who has no experience in an art and goes from white belt to 4th Dan after a weekend seminar?


Must have been an intense seminar! 

Daniel


----------



## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> And if you vote and pay taxes you get the right to ***** about what is wrong about the country.  And if you have spent years sending applications and $$$ to the Kukkiwon then I expect that gives me the right to ***** about what is wrong with the Kukkiwon as well.




I suppose that is how some people think. Personally I choose not to bad mouth my country or the Kukkiwon as an institution, because I am grateful to be a part of both, no matter what I think I am entitled to.


----------



## Grenadier

Thread locked, pending staff review. 

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


----------

