# Wing Chun and sparring - staying true to techniques



## DanT (Feb 26, 2017)

I saw this video online where some Wing Chun dude was like Wing Chun ppl shouldn't spar because it teaches you to not kill your opponent (srs). I have always sparred and always will. What's your take on it? furthermore, I often see vids of Wing Chun ppl sparring and their techniques go pretty much out the window. When I spar I try as much as possible to use the techniques I've spent tens of thousands of hours on (Pak da, lap da, tan da, etc), rather then pretending like I know how to kickbox. How come some people seem to forget about their techniques when they spar? Is it the pressure? How true do you try to stay to your techniques?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2017)

DanT said:


> I saw this video online where some Wing Chun dude was like Wing Chun ppl shouldn't spar because it teaches you to not kill your opponent (srs). I have always sparred and always will. What's your take on it? furthermore, I often see vids of Wing Chun ppl sparring and their techniques go pretty much out the window. When I spar I try as much as possible to use the techniques I've spent tens of thousands of hours on (Pak da, lap da, tan da, etc), rather then pretending like I know how to kickbox. How come some people seem to forget about their techniques when they spar? Is it the pressure? How true do you try to stay to your techniques?


If he seriously thinks that never sparring makes you a better practitioner of any martial art, he's drinking some bad kool-aid.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 26, 2017)

DanT said:


> pretending like I know how to kickbox ... How true do you try to stay to your techniques?


If your opponent steps in and tries to punch you, do you want to

- interrupt his forward movement by your low roundhouse kick even if roundhouse kick may not be emphasized in your MA system?
- use a 45 degree downward hay-maker to knock both of his punches down even if hay-maker may not be emphasized in your MA system?

If you have cross trained MA system A, B, and C, you still want to fight the way that you like to fight. You don't want any of your MA systems to tell you how you should fight.


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## DanT (Feb 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponent steps in and tries to punch you, do you want to
> 
> - interrupt his forward movement by your low roundhouse kick even if roundhouse kick may not be emphasized in your MA system?
> - use a 45 degree downward hay-maker to knock both of his punches down even if hay-maker may not be emphasized in your MA system?
> ...


I agree, but my question is to wing Chun people, how true do you stay to your "core" hand techniques (lap, pak, tan, gan, etc) when sparring?


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## KPM (Feb 26, 2017)

Dan, here is a thread along similar lines that you might enjoy checking out:

Wing Chun Sparring


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## Danny T (Feb 26, 2017)

I don't think lap, pak, tan...etc. when sparring. 
I'm more about angles and attacking his core through weight distribution & footwork. The pak, tan, gan...etc are but an instant in time, they happen because of intercepting, attacking, and/or clearing lines in order to continue to attack. Interception of the attack happens due to proper timing while using constant forward intent.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 26, 2017)

This is exactly the purpose of drilling techniques thousands upon thousands of times. To make your body absorb each and every technique as a reflex action. So when it comes to sparring and it is too fast and stressful to 'think' of what to do your body will react naturally and according to whats being thrown at you. This messiness in sparring you see around is usually a result of sparring and "applying" to early.


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## dudewingchun (Feb 27, 2017)

Would be good to see some sparring videos


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## DanT (Feb 27, 2017)

dudewingchun said:


> Would be good to see some sparring videos


I'll try and upload some vids of me sparring Heavy, I usually spar 3 times a week so I'll see tonight if I can upload some vids.


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## wingerjim (Feb 27, 2017)

DanT said:


> I saw this video online where some Wing Chun dude was like Wing Chun ppl shouldn't spar because it teaches you to not kill your opponent (srs). I have always sparred and always will. What's your take on it? furthermore, I often see vids of Wing Chun ppl sparring and their techniques go pretty much out the window. When I spar I try as much as possible to use the techniques I've spent tens of thousands of hours on (Pak da, lap da, tan da, etc), rather then pretending like I know how to kickbox. How come some people seem to forget about their techniques when they spar? Is it the pressure? How true do you try to stay to your techniques?


Don't spar so you don't kill people....sounds like someone who is over rating themselves. The goal of Wing Chun has nothing to do with killing or not killing, it has to do with defending ones self and using enough force to stop the threat. As for sparing, we spar at my school within the context of practicing Wing Chun up to the point of nearly striking and sometimes we do strike, but always with the goal of using correct form and technique. This is often done from pak sau or chi sau.


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> This messiness in sparring you see around is usually a result of sparring and "applying" to early.



couldn't agree more. I would say that is true for pretty much every other MA as well, which is why most MA sparring ends up looking like generic  kick boxing


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 27, 2017)

My situation is a bit different, since a) I am a relative beginner in WT, with a bit over a year of experience and b) WT is just part of my overall game, so I don't feel the need to "fight like a WT guy."

For me, my WT comes out in sparring at certain points where it feels appropriate. Usually that's when I'm pressuring someone at close "dirty boxing" range, especially when I need to clear an obstruction. At longer range I'm usually using some sort of kickboxing or boxing structure. At closer range, I'm grappling. Between those extremes I may use dirty boxing, Muay Thai clinching, WT, or some combination of them all depending on the energy I'm feeling.

The "too deadly to spar" argument is generally nonsense. If sparring without smashing your opponent's windpipe is teaching you "not to kill" your opponent, then so is all your other training. You don't actually crush your partners windpipe in chi sao or  lat sao or when drilling techniques or when doing forms or any other time. Also, anyone who thinks their WC/WT strikes are especially lethal compared to any martial art is living in a fantasy land.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> This messiness in sparring you see around is usually a result of sparring and "applying" to early.





yak sao said:


> couldn't agree more. I would say that is true for pretty much every other MA as well, which is why most MA sparring ends up looking like generic  kick boxing



That raises a question, though. Arts such as boxing, Muay Thai, and most grappling arts introduce sparring fairly early on. Most students (unless they are unusually talented) _do _start out sparring with crappy, sloppy technique. However over time they become cleaner, more precise, and more in line with the principles taught in the art. This happens because 

 they get dominated in sparring by senior practitioners with cleaner technique and emulate those sparring partners  
 they discover that using the proper technique as taught by their coach just works better than their natural sloppy instincts.
they get used to the pressure of someone trying to hit them/throw them/choke them/ generally mess up their technique and so they are able to relax and focus on moving correctly.
they discover problem areas in sparring and then can better appreciate the solutions being taught in other (non-sparring) areas of training
This being the case, why shouldn't this process work for other arts?


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## Danny T (Feb 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That raises a question, though. Arts such as boxing, Muay Thai, and most grappling arts introduce sparring fairly early on. Most students (unless they are unusually talented) _do _start out sparring with crappy, sloppy technique. However over time they become cleaner, more precise, and more in line with the principles taught in the art. This happens because
> 
> they get dominated in sparring by senior practitioners with cleaner technique and emulate those sparring partners
> they discover that using the proper technique as taught by their coach just works better than their natural sloppy instincts.
> ...


^^^^^
We spar often and early...with about 50% of our students. 
The other's aren't really interested in fighting but more interested in a great workout and learning a martial art.


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2017)

I've found through my own personal learning experience and through teaching that if you put someone into a competitive sparring situation too soon then they will revert back to previous training, or if they've had no other training, they will muscle through and clobber.
The approach I prefer early on is to 2 man drill the hell out of them in the initial months, allowing them to gain some pressure testing in a way they are more able to relax.... as they become  more comfortable, then  increase the pressure by adding sparring 

Just one method of many to skin a cat, others are every bit as valid.


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## KPM (Feb 27, 2017)

I like to do "progressive" sparring.  Its sparring with multiple rules.  Then you start taking away rules.  ;-)


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## ShortBridge (Feb 27, 2017)

Wars have been fought over this topic. 

For what it's worth, I think sparring is an excellent drill. It does a great job of training things that are difficult to train otherwise. It does a terrible job of training other things, so just the right amount, in just the right way, at just the right time to compliment the rest of our training is key. 

It is not, in itself, "fighting" or "combat" and making that leap is just as misguided as the people who think there is no value in it or that they are too dangerous to responsibly participate. 

If your martial art is boxing, then it plays a much more significant role in your development because the rules of sparring are going to be much closer to the rules of your sport. Everything is somewhere on that continuum. 

Years ago (and maybe still for all I know) a karate school in this area started having "open sparring" sessions where anyone from any style or no style could come and spar with them. Something that they were very proud of and I'll tip my hat to them for it. I asked "what are the rules?" and was told eventually, that you're barefoot. There are no kicks below the waist and no hands above the shoulders, but you can kick to the head. No grappling, throws or locks.

This would not have been a test of wing chun vs karate it would have been a test of their karate against my karate...which doesn't exist. Or I could have brawled or fallen back to the Muay Thai and boxing that I did 1/2 of my lifetime ago, but probably would have gotten owned, which would have proven two things to the world.

1) Wing Chun doesn't work in the "real world"
2) When Wing Chun guys spar it looks like some generic kick boxing

I'm not sure what I would have learned from it. 

That's not a knock against sparring, it can be done and can be a very important part of training and I do a fair bit of it, but those YouTube videos mean nothing to me.

Look at the "Man Up Stand Up" videos that were made in NY in the last decade, though guys are or were doing a pretty good job with it and I think had a pretty good perspective of what it was and what it wasn't, if I remember right.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That raises a question, though. Arts such as boxing, Muay Thai, and most grappling arts introduce sparring fairly early on. Most students (unless they are unusually talented) _do _start out sparring with crappy, sloppy technique. However over time they become cleaner, more precise, and more in line with the principles taught in the art. This happens because
> 
> they get dominated in sparring by senior practitioners with cleaner technique and emulate those sparring partners
> they discover that using the proper technique as taught by their coach just works better than their natural sloppy instincts.
> ...



Well im not a boxer, nor have i ever prqcticed boxing. I do know a few boxers but thats about all so i cant comment of why they do what they do as none of it would be from experience. Perhaps boxing is more natural to pick up, maybe there is less to learn in terms of individual techniques, or more than likely its a different art with different goals and therefore practiced differently. All just guesses.

I have, however, done wing chun and can give you reasons why sparring is not done so early on. All the benefits you listed we do gain through sparring at a much later stage. The way wing chun is set out to be learned (three seperate empty hand forms and the dummy form) is a progression and a continuous refinement of individual compone ts of the art. Each and every technique has the potential to work by itself however that isnt wing chun being used holistically and applied as intended. Once all the techniques  and forms have been refined and practiced to a high level in isolation they come together in prqctice on the wooden dummy and sparring. Once you have the 'tools' and the correct reflex reactions engrained into your body only then can you start to use the style in a flowing, powerful, mobile, stable manner combining and syncronizing footwork with upper body (it becomes a part of yourself). This is is a level we all strive for and is very hard to reach. Wing chun typically is not the most natural feeling martial art to practice wspecially in the beggining. It takes many years and hours of training each day to be able to move the way you should when using it and in turn gaining the benefits of moving in such a way. To develop the speed and power to actually deliver these applications also takes time and training especially in the early stages during foundation practice. So this is why, for us at least, sparring is not so useful early on. Without having refined the individual components to a high level and then learned to put them together its just a mess and can be very frustrating.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

Further to that by sparring early, because begginers dont know how to move, dont have the right reflexes, strength, speed etc. They can develop bad habits, wrong reactions which end up being a set back later on when you do learn to apply it all correctly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Further to that by sparring early, because begginers dont know how to move, dont have the right reflexes, strength, speed etc. They can develop bad habits, wrong reactions which end up being a set back later on when you do learn to apply it all correctly.


I don't think that's a given, though. There are ways to make that graduation to sparring earlier in a student's training, without developing bad habits. I don't know that it would be superior in the long run (nor that it wouldn't) - just an observation that the way WC is delivered can change without changing the core of the art.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Further to that by sparring early, because begginers dont know how to move, dont have the right reflexes, strength, speed etc. They can develop bad habits, wrong reactions which end up being a set back later on when you do learn to apply it all correctly.


My believe is completely the opposite.

I had my sparring in very early stage. Our sparring was one person played offense while another person played defense. While I was playing defense, I had to

- move my head to dodge my opponent's punches.
- use footwork to control the distance.

I had learned "head dodging" and "footwork" in my sparring during the first day. I have seen many of my classmates who didn't spar early. They had built "bad habit" by "not knowing" how to

- move their head away from their opponent's punches, and
- use footwork to move their body out of their opponent's attacking path.

The funny thing was when I started to train forms, I just could not find any form that has "head dodging". Can you learn "head dodging" through solo form train? I don't think you can.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My believe is completely the opposite.
> 
> I had my sparring in very early stage. Our sparring was one person played offense while another person played defense. While I was playing defense, I had to
> 
> ...




Thats great that that worked for you in the art you are practicing. Im talking about wing chun


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Thats great that that worked for you in the art you are practicing. Im talking about wing chun


WC guys also use "head dodging" and "footwork" as well. Another advantage to spar early is to emphasize that "One should not let any MA style to define how he should fight."


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> WC guys also use "head dodging" and "footwork" as well.



Indeed. But developed and trained obviously using different methods we consider better for the use and practice of our particular style


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Indeed. But developed and trained obviously using different methods we consider better for the use and practice of our particular style


The "head dodging" doesn't exist in any of those 3 WC forms. Why?

Actually, it doesn't exist in any of the CMA forms that I know (except 2 men form). In other words, you can only learn "head dodging" through sparring.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "head dodging" doesn't exist in any of those


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "head dodging" doesn't exist in any of those 3 WC forms. Why?
> 
> Actually, it doesn't exist in any of the CMA forms that I know (except 2 men form). In other words, you can only learn "head dodging" through sparring.




Most Wing chun does not use "head dodging" thats why it isnt in the forms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Most Wing chun does not use "head dodging" thats why it isnt in the forms.


This is why the more you spar, the more you will fight like a kick-boxer. Through sparring, you will learn something that your MA system won't be able to teach you.

IMO, you (general YOU) can learn:

- head dodging,
- footwork,
- low roundhouse kick,
- hay-maker,
- ...

even if your MA system don't emphasize those.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why the more you spar, the more you will fight like a kick-boxer. Through sparring, you will learn something that your MA system won't be able to teach you.
> 
> IMO, you (general YOU) can learn:
> 
> ...



Awesome of thats what you get out of it. But they are not our goals or what we consider sparring to be for


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Awesome of thats what you get out of it. But they are not our goals or what we consider sparring to be for


What's your goal?

- To be a good general fighter, or
- To be a good WC fighter?

I can only speak for myself. I want to be a good general fighter. I don't want any MA system to tell me how I should fight. I'll use any technique, any strategy, from any MA system as long as it can help my fighting ability.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your goal?
> 
> - To be a good fighter, or
> - To be a good WC fighter?
> ...


I agree, but not everyone has that aim. Some folks want to become good at fighting with a specific system. I've met some very skilled fighters that took that route. I think it takes more effort, because of the natural limitations of one art, but if it works for them, that's fine by me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Some folks want to become good at fighting with a specific system.


If I want to be a good "long fist" fighter (my primary MA system), I will never be able to integrate "single leg" into my fighting. IMO, to have "style boundary" can be a physical restriction on myself. It can prevent me from growing.

I had visited my long fist teacher many years after I had learned from him. At that time, my personal interest was no longer in "long fist" any more.

I don't understand why people may want to be a good style fighter. After all, MA style is your slave. You are the true master.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think it takes more effort, because of the natural limitations of one art, ...


Sometime even "more effort" still cannot solve your problem. When a solution already exist in a MA system outside of your primary MA system, it makes no sense to re-invent the wheel. you should just use it. I like the concept of

- Yours can be mine.
- Mine is still mine.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2017)

How is there even a contradiction between being good at wing chun or good at sparring?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I want to be a good "long fist" fighter (my primary MA system), I will never be able to integrate "single leg" into my fighting. IMO, to have "style boundary" can be a physical restriction on myself. It can prevent me from growing.
> 
> I had visited my long fist teacher many years after I had learned from him. At that time, my personal interest was no longer in "long fist" any more.
> 
> I don't understand why people may want to be a good style fighter. After all, MA style is your slave. You are the true master.


Just because it isn't your path or mine, that doesn't make it a wrong path.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> How is there even a contradiction between being good at wing chun or good at sparring?


I think it's a matter of how one views an art. If I looked at NGA as a container, then to be good at NGA (specifically), I'd need to work within the container. If I view NGA as a starting point and set of tools to build on, then being good at NGA simply means using those tools effectively (with whatever other tools I use).


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime even "more effort" still cannot solve your problem. When a solution already exist in a MA system outside of your primary MA system, it makes no sense to re-invent the wheel. you should just use it. I like the concept of
> 
> - Yours can be mine.
> - Mine is still mine.




Each to their own.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think it's a matter of how one views an art. If I looked at NGA as a container, then to be good at NGA (specifically), I'd need to work within the container. If I view NGA as a starting point and set of tools to build on, then being good at NGA simply means using those tools effectively (with whatever other tools I use).



But it is their art.  They should be able to organise sparring in some manner that allows them to functionally aply it.

I mean capoeira spar.  And they are as far removed from kickboxing as you can get.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> But it is their art.  They should be able to organise sparring in some manner that allows them to functionally aply it.
> 
> I mean capoeira spar.  And they are as far removed from kickboxing as you can get.




Wing chun does spar. Just not until later in some schools


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## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2017)

If you train to develop the principles, and recognize that techniques are principles in use, then you can do whatever you want and "style" disappears.


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## DanT (Feb 27, 2017)

At my school students start light sparring after a few months. Usually when I introduce sparring I just tell them "okay, I'll attack you, you just block and evade, try to use either lap da or gan da when you can." And then after a couple rounds we rotate (they attack). After about a year, we gear them up (mouth guard, cup, headgear, and gloves) and increase the intensity, and make it more attacking eachother at the same time. I think the key is not making them go crazy, start slow, start smooth, and then eventually increase the contact so that within a year they can spar hard and not get hurt.

-also I have a vid of me sparring, I'll upload it when I have my laptop.


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## Juany118 (Feb 27, 2017)

DanT said:


> I agree, but my question is to wing Chun people, how true do you stay to your "core" hand techniques (lap, pak, tan, gan, etc) when sparring?



Pak and lap are easy for me to maintain, pak is an instinctive defense and lap is for me as well, perhaps too much because I am so damned used to transitioning to control techniques due to my occupation.  Beyond that I will admit I tend to find myself using bil sau more than say a tan sau and if I bong it is usually a jamming bong during an entry.  I will inadvertently do tan if my strike is intercepted by an opponent's strike but it's not something I instinctively do in and of itself.  I am also find myself using a chuen sau quite liberally on entry as it can jam and cover simultaneously.  In short I use many WC techniques but I have practiced to, for the most part, use the ones that are more compatible with natural human reactions.

As for when one should start sparring in WC it all depends on how one is trained in my opinion.  Example, if one has adequate drills/san sik, the right students imo can start sparing before CK.  YM himself said that a student competent in CK should be able to defend themselves and so at a minimum a student should indeed be sparing before BJ imo.

It is, imo, important to have students start at least "light sparing" when, as an instructor, you believe the student has two things.  1. Simply a solid foundation 
 2. Adequate control so they can indeed spar "lightly."

Doing the forms, drills, etc do not train the proper reflex reactions, they teach the skills that will be used when the proper reflex reactions are developed.  You only develop the proper reflex reactions necessary for a fight under pressure in a dynamic environment and this requires sparring.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Wing chun does spar. Just not until later in some schools



Do you have an example of that?


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Do you have an example of that?



Example of what?


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## Juany118 (Feb 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> How is there even a contradiction between being good at wing chun or good at sparring?



That is a false dichotomy.  The issue usually comes from a few of the following ideas.

1.  Like the OP says some of the WC techniques would involve actually maiming, killing an opponent.  Ergo if you wish to keep these skills usable you can't spar.  The thing is, in my experience, you can spar with using the really dangerous techniques, then when in a life/death situation still instinctively use them.  There is something to be said for fearing for your life having you do a neck/throat shot, going for the eyes or destroying a knee with a kick, instead of just trying anoth palm strike that may or may not get the job done.

2. The idea that somehow it will hurt skill development.  A lot of YM lineage schools no longer do the "practical drills" (read not lap or chi sau) that were part of YM's system.  Recently I even saw people claim YM WC doesn't have such san sik and that is simply not true.  So sub lineages I suppose eliminated them, but mine, and others I have researched still have individual and cooperative drills that teach footwork/skill integration and well as power generation, maintaining structure in defense etc.

As footwork doesn't get introduced in the forms until CK (in most YM WC, TWC has a 4th form with some that slots between SLT and CK) and is further added upon in both BJ and MJ, some thus feel you need to do most if not all of these before you can spar.

The thing is, as I said before, YM himself said that a student who is competent with CK should be able to defend himself.  We have to remember that is in the context of the san sik he taught as well.  Add to that the fact that, in my experience, you need to spar to be competent...Well you need to spar.

You have only to look at the people fighting in competitions who study WC but then look like "regular" kick boxers to see the price of a lack of sparring.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Most Wing chun does not use "head dodging" thats why it isnt in the forms.


 actually it is, it's just not like boxing.  The pivot is the kung fu way of "head dodging" It takes the head off the centerline.   In Jow Ga kung fu, the students learn this early on, but we do not tell them that they are actually dodging. The dodging is built in to the technique so as long as they trust the technique and do the technique as it is trained and drilled then they will be dodging.

I understand why this isn't made clear in the beginning for beginner students, because the purpose of the movement it's to attack and not dodge.  From what I understand about Kung Fu systems, they like to use movements that serve multiple purposes. For example, while a person is attacking they are dodging.  While a person is dodging they are lining up for attacks.  It's never really dodging without something in return.  It's more like getting out of the way by stepping into a better position to attack. This doesn't make sense to beginners and if they think of it as a "dodge" then they will get out of the way without being in a position to attack.  

Now with wing chun if you think of what the pivot is actually doing then you'll be able to see the dodge that it creates, as a WC student you don't see it as dodge because you were always taught that it was an attack. In your mind you say "this is how we attack"  as you look deeper into the technique you will being to see the defensive portion of WC attacks.  Technically it's a simultaneous attack and defense that only requires you to focus on attacking using the technique as it's drilled.


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> 1. Like the OP says some of the WC techniques would involve actually maiming, killing an opponent. Ergo if you wish to keep these skills usable you can't spar. The thing is, in my experience, you can spar with using the really dangerous techniques, then when in a life/death situation still instinctively use them. There is something to be said for fearing for your life having you do a neck/throat shot, going for the eyes or destroying a knee with a kick, instead of just trying anoth palm strike that may or may not get the job done.



Bollox. 

Ok.  Bare with me on this. You can't train kill moves realistically anyway. So i can't see how not including those moves in sparring effects your ability to use them. 

If you didn't spar you would go straight from pads or air or however you trained these moves to a life or death fight.

If you did spar you would still go straight from pads to life or death.

So sparring has no negative effect on kill moves. 

And i could argue it has a positive effect in regards to timing and movement.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It's never really dodging without something in return.


The reason that you try to dodge are:

1. Your opponent's hay-maker (or hook punch) can be too powerful that you may not be able to block it with 1 arm. Of course you can block it with 2 arms. But sometime your other arm is not available.
2. You want to dodge your opponent's hay-maker (or hook punch) so you can counter back with an uppercut.
3. Sometime it takes less effort to move just the head than to move the whole body.
4. In throwing art, when your opponent's right hand grabs on your left upper collar, a "head leaning" can move your head to the other side of his hold and make his hold not effective.
5. Just dodge a high kick.
6. ...


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## Juany118 (Feb 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Bollox.
> 
> Ok.  Bare with me on this. You can't train kill moves realistically anyway. So i can't see how not including those moves in sparring effects your ability to use them.
> 
> ...



My point was that it is indeed bollox and that sparing without "kill shots" doesn't change the fact you can still use them effectively when needed.  This is however used as an excuse by some instructors though to excuse why they don't use sparing.  It's bollox but they still says it.  If you want to learn to really fight you must spar.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Most Wing chun does not use "head dodging" thats why it isnt in the forms.


Do you ever dodge a crescent kick, hook kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, or jumping kick to the head?

You may not use those kicks in WC but you can't prevent others from using those kicks on you.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> actually it is, it's just not like boxing.  The pivot is the kung fu way of "head dodging" It takes the head off the centerline.   In Jow Ga kung fu, the students learn this early on, but we do not tell them that they are actually dodging. The dodging is built in to the technique so as long as they trust the technique and do the technique as it is trained and drilled then they will be dodging.
> 
> I understand why this isn't made clear in the beginning for beginner students, because the purpose of the movement it's to attack and not dodge.  From what I understand about Kung Fu systems, they like to use movements that serve multiple purposes. For example, while a person is attacking they are dodging.  While a person is dodging they are lining up for attacks.  It's never really dodging without something in return.  It's more like getting out of the way by stepping into a better position to attack. This doesn't make sense to beginners and if they think of it as a "dodge" then they will get out of the way without being in a position to attack.
> 
> Now with wing chun if you think of what the pivot is actually doing then you'll be able to see the dodge that it creates, as a WC student you don't see it as dodge because you were always taught that it was an attack. In your mind you say "this is how we attack"  as you look deeper into the technique you will being to see the defensive portion of WC attacks.  Technically it's a simultaneous attack and defense that only requires you to focus on attacking using the technique as it's drilled.



Apologies, by head dodge i meant moving the head independantly of the body in order to evade a strike. 

Of course wing chun uses the stance, turn and ultimatly the foot work to get out of the way or evade


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## Juany118 (Feb 28, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Apologies, by head dodge i meant moving the head independantly of the body in order to evade a strike.
> 
> Of course wing chun uses the stance, turn and ultimatly the foot work to get out of the way or evade



The only thing I would say is that while what you speak of is what we should do, there are times in a real fight when you have to say "screw it" and break the rules.  I have come out on top in sparring more than once because someone insisted on keeping their head there when I managed to "set them up" in such a way that they weren't in a position to effectively counter my attack.  Conversely I have been similarly "set up" and because I didn't mind "matrixing" while I release stepped the blow which would have rung my bell fell short.

Von Moltke once said "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.". I think when @Kung Fu Wang speaks about moving the head it is in those circumstances when the battle plan fails because of the dynamic nature of a fight.


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Apologies, by head dodge i meant moving the head independantly of the body in order to evade a strike.
> 
> Of course wing chun uses the stance, turn and ultimatly the foot work to get out of the way or evade



Head doesn't really move independently of the body regardless of the system.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> But it is their art.  They should be able to organise sparring in some manner that allows them to functionally aply it.
> 
> I mean capoeira spar.  And they are as far removed from kickboxing as you can get.


Good point. I guess the way I'm looking at it is this: if delaying sparring allows a better focus on some of the principles of WC, then a focus on specifically getting good at sparring in a generic sense might override those principles. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm over-thinking this.


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## KPM (Feb 28, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "head dodging" doesn't exist in any of those 3 WC forms. Why?
> 
> Actually, it doesn't exist in any of the CMA forms that I know (except 2 men form). In other words, you can only learn "head dodging" through sparring.



Some lineages have "head dodging" in the last section of their Biu Gee form.  Its actually "dodging" with the entire body because you lean back at the waist, but it is effectively the same thing.


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## KPM (Feb 28, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your goal?
> 
> - To be a good general fighter, or
> - To be a good WC fighter?
> ...



That was the question I asked in that other thread! .....Are you sparring to be good at sparring, or to be good at Wing  Chun?  If your goal is to be good at sparring, then why wouldn't you train one of the "tried and true" styles that dominate sparring contests?  And that would be one of the kickboxing variations....American Kickboxing, Thai Boxing, MMA kickboxing, etc!   You are wasting your time training Wing Chun or any traditional martial art if you entire goal is to be good at sparring.

Now, you actually said "general fighter vs. WC fighter."  But what does that mean?   Is sparring the sole representation of fighting?   If someone can't keep their Wing Chun structure and technique during a sparring contest, then how likely are they going to keep it under pressure in a real fight?  And if you don't see the WC structure and techniques as being applicable and workable in a real fight, then why are you training them? 

Things fall apart under pressure, no doubt.   But shouldn't the goal be to train to a level such that they fall apart as little as possible?  Sparring is valuable in that regard.  You put it all under the pressure of sparring and see what falls apart.  Then you go back and work on that so that it doesn't fall apart!!!   But IMHO, to just accept or expect those things to happen because its sparring and "Wing Chun doesn't look like Wing Chun when used for real".....is a load of BS and wrong thinking.  Wing Chun people should NOT accept that a Wing Chun person sparring can look just like any kickboxer and be unidentifiable as a Wing Chun fighter.  When I see a sparring clip that is labeled "Wing Chun vs. X" and I can't figure out who is supposed to be the Wing Chun guy...then something is wrong!


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Good point. I guess the way I'm looking at it is this: if delaying sparring allows a better focus on some of the principles of WC, then a focus on specifically getting good at sparring in a generic sense might override those principles. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm over-thinking this.



Ok. gumby capo sparring. They dont turn into kickboxers. They obviously dont have the principles down.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Ok. gumby capo sparring. They dont turn into kickboxers. They obviously dont have the principles down.


I think this actually gets to what I'm thinking. If someone wants to get good at sparring (in general) fast, then they'd need to abandon some of the principles and feeds you see in a roda. If they want to get good at Capo, they need to keep those things. I guess I think of "good at sparring" as being good at sparring with people outside your art. That might not be what others are thinking.


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## DanT (Feb 28, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Pak and lap are easy for me to maintain, pak is an instinctive defense and lap is for me as well, perhaps too much because I am so damned used to transitioning to control techniques due to my occupation.  Beyond that I will admit I tend to find myself using bil sau more than say a tan sau and if I bong it is usually a jamming bong during an entry.  I will inadvertently do tan if my strike is intercepted by an opponent's strike but it's not something I instinctively do in and of itself.  I am also find myself using a chuen sau quite liberally on entry as it can jam and cover simultaneously.  In short I use many WC techniques but I have practiced to, for the most part, use the ones that are more compatible with natural human reactions.
> 
> As for when one should start sparring in WC it all depends on how one is trained in my opinion.  Example, if one has adequate drills/san sik, the right students imo can start sparing before CK.  YM himself said that a student competent in CK should be able to defend themselves and so at a minimum a student should indeed be sparing before BJ imo.
> 
> ...


I agree, I primarily use Pak to block high straight attacks, Gan Da to block low attacks, and Tan Da to block high off angle attacks. When I close the gap I use lap da often, as well as tan da and occasionally pak da. I never use bong, ever. At least I try not to. I got rid of bong sau from my sparring a long time ago. Do u find it works well for u?


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## Juany118 (Feb 28, 2017)

DanT said:


> I agree, I primarily use Pak to block high straight attacks, Gan Da to block low attacks, and Tan Da to block high off angle attacks. When I close the gap I use lap da often, as well as tan da and occasionally pak da. I never use bong, ever. At least I try not to. I got rid of bong sau from my sparring a long time ago. Do u find it works well for u?



ONLY if I am using it as what we call a "jamming" bong.  It is far from traditional but essentially as you enter you "jam" the opponents limb with a quickly established bong.  This leads easily into a lap da in order to trap and also, if it doesn't quite work, still has the bong limb in a good position to "cover" what else may be coming.  I also use gan as you do BUT I tend to instinctively do a gum instead of gan for low arm strikes.  For low kicks waist height and lower I actually tend to use my legs.  I purposely trained this later part because my arms are... well damn skinny but due to all the running and cycling I do my legs are, not to sound immodest, very strong.


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## geezer (Feb 28, 2017)

DanT said:


> *I never use bong, ever.* At least I try not to. I got rid of bong sau from my sparring a long time ago. Do u find it works well for u?



Bong definitely has it's place, especially in close. Check out how Alan Orr uses it in sparring, starting at about 21:00 in the clip below:






BTW let's avoid text speak (using "u" for "you", etc.) ...it's in the forum rules. Thanks


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2017)

I see sparring as part of learning so I'm not sure why there is so much separation. When I look at wrestling and other grappling systems, there is no separation of what's too early.  For my school "too early for sparring" simply means that someone doesn't have the control that's needed to spar safely.  I think a lack of control during sparring or even drilling can be more dangerous than a competitive fight.  If a student doesn't have control then that's when there's a risk of things being broken.


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## Herbie (Feb 28, 2017)

What I found lacking in Wing Chun was what I refer to as "alive" training.  Not necessarily sparring, but it could include sparring.  Alive training can be totally unstructured - glove up and go at it.  Or semi-structured - OK, you've learned tan, pak, and bong, so I'm going to attack you with punches; see what you can make work.  I learned more about applying WC after I left WC classes, and started working out somewhere that does randori at the end of every class.  Randori as in: partner up, I attack you 3 times and you defend, then we switch.  That's not "sparring", but it's valuable training.  And for what it's worth, I have been amazed at how many bong saos present themselves against those pesky hooking punches.


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## Juany118 (Feb 28, 2017)

Herbie said:


> What I found lacking in Wing Chun was what I refer to as "alive" training.  Not necessarily sparring, but it could include sparring.  Alive training can be totally unstructured - glove up and go at it.  Or semi-structured - OK, you've learned tan, pak, and bong, so I'm going to attack you with punches; see what you can make work.  I learned more about applying WC after I left WC classes, and started working out somewhere that does randori at the end of every class.  Randori as in: partner up, I attack you 3 times and you defend, then we switch.  That's not "sparring", but it's valuable training.  And for what it's worth, I have been amazed at how many bong saos present themselves against those pesky hooking punches.




What you note here is VERY school dependent.  Most of the schools in my sub lineage do something very similar to what you describe as lacking in WC, as do schools of other WC lineages in my area.  Note by lineage I mean sub-lineages of YM.  We used to have YM via WSL>Gary Lam, now we have YM via Sigung William Cheung, Moy Yat and Ip Ching and Ip Chun in my area.


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## DanT (Feb 28, 2017)

geezer said:


> Bong definitely has it's place, especially in close. Check out how Alan Orr uses it in sparring, starting at about 21:00 in the clip below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay will do. Yeah I shouldn't have said I NEVER use bong, I do occasionally, almost like how Alan does in the clip, when contact is already made. I don't do it like some schools do, where you use it to block jabs and crosses, that's what I should have said.


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## Juany118 (Feb 28, 2017)

DanT said:


> Okay will do. Yeah I shouldn't have said I NEVER use bong, I do occasionally, almost like how Alan does in the clip, when contact is already made. I don't do it like some schools do, where you use it to block jabs and crosses, that's what I should have said.




Pretty much sums up my method, with the exception of the "jam".


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## Herbie (Feb 28, 2017)

Juany118 - re: very school dependent.  Understood.  I could have worded my comment better.


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## DanT (Feb 28, 2017)

Herbie said:


> What I found lacking in Wing Chun was what I refer to as "alive" training.  Not necessarily sparring, but it could include sparring.  Alive training can be totally unstructured - glove up and go at it.  Or semi-structured - OK, you've learned tan, pak, and bong, so I'm going to attack you with punches; see what you can make work.  I learned more about applying WC after I left WC classes, and started working out somewhere that does randori at the end of every class.  Randori as in: partner up, I attack you 3 times and you defend, then we switch.  That's not "sparring", but it's valuable training.  And for what it's worth, I have been amazed at how many bong saos present themselves against those pesky hooking punches.


At my club, a majority of the training we do is alive training, exactly how you described, in addition to sparring, Chi Sao, and various partner drills.


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## dudewingchun (Feb 28, 2017)

If you don't spar how do you know anything will work. I didn't develop any fighting skill until I started sparring regularly, of course you will be **** at first but after a while you get used to what real attacks are like and it gives you a reference point for your drills. If you are doing these san sik drills without knowing what a real punch feels like how can you ever expect to apply it properly.

you say sparring early can develop bad habits, but so can just doing drills that aren't proven to work without sparring, because when you do start sparring and you have a reaction that ends up being useless and only sets you up for strikes then you will be worse off than if you just tried the tech in sparring early on and realised oh it wont work like that in real fighting.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 28, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Further to that by sparring early, because begginers dont know how to move, dont have the right reflexes, strength, speed etc. They can develop bad habits, wrong reactions which end up being a set back later on when you do learn to apply it all correctly.


In my experience, sparring helps break bad habits, not build them.* It's one thing to drill a technique and have the instructor come over to nitpick that your elbow is in the wrong position. It's another thing to experience getting punched in the face or arm-locked and then realize it was because your elbow was in the wrong position. That sort of experience gives you a lot of motivation to clean up your form and listen to your instructors advice. Sure, students start out sparring their technique usually goes to crap. The more they continue sparring (with appropriate feedback and guidance, of course), the faster that technique improves and the better it holds up to pressure.

*(This depends on how the sparring is structured, mind you. I have seen schools where the sparring is set up in such a way that it probably makes the students worse, not better. Just about any training drill can be structured in such a way so that it fails to accomplish its purpose.)



obi_juan_salami said:


> Perhaps boxing is more natural to pick up





obi_juan_salami said:


> Wing chun typically is not the most natural feeling martial art to practice



This is a distinct possibility. Students may need more time to internalize the basic body mechanics in a less intuitive art before they can do anything effective with it. I'm new enough to WT that I will withhold judgment on the matter. I was able to use at least some WT methods effectively in sparring after just a few months, but I'm starting from a very different place than a typical beginner.

On the other hand, many of WC's origin myths include the idea that the art was designed so students could reach the ability to fight more quickly than in older systems, so who knows.



obi_juan_salami said:


> maybe there is less to learn in terms of individual techniques



Hard to say with regard to boxing. There are fewer officially distinguished techniques in boxing than in most arts, but they are explored in a depth equal to or greater than any art out there. If you were to name all the individual variations of techniques (ex. the many ways to throw a jab) and the subtle moves used by high-level boxers which don't have an official label, then the count might be higher. Muay Thai probably has a comparable number of individual techniques than WC. BJJ has many, many more individual techniques. All of these arts benefit from early sparring.**

**(There are a minority of BJJ schools which make students wait until they have a grounding in the fundamentals before they start free sparring. Usually this takes just a few months. I do know of one association where it takes over a year before the student is considered to have enough of a foundation for free sparring. That is an extreme outlier, though, and they do have the students work on semi-free-form "reaction drills" in the meantime.)



obi_juan_salami said:


> Without having refined the individual components to a high level and then learned to put them together its just a mess and can be very frustrating



This brings me to a term I've mentioned before, though not recently. It's a concept from engineering and computer programming called "failing gracefully." Basically the idea is that if a system has a flaw (as all systems do) and encounters a problem, you don't want the whole thing to just blow up and fail completely. You want the system to do the best it can with what it has and continue on.

One implication of this is that you don't want to build a system which requires perfection or near perfection in order to be functional. A system which works when everything is 99% bug free but crashes and burns at 96% bug free is not a good system. Preferable would be a more linear relationship: 30% perfection gets you 30% functionality, 70% perfection gets you 70% functionality, 99.9% perfection gets you 99.9% functionality. Even better is when you can front-load the system so that 50% perfection gets you 90% functionality, 70% perfection gets you 95% functionality, 99.9% perfection gets you 99.99% functionality.

How I apply this to martial arts is that if your system requires the practitioner to fully master all the subtle details at a high level in order to be effective, then your system has a problem. It takes a long time for a student to reach that level even for demonstration and much longer to be able to maintain that level under pressure. If you are using a martial art to build fighting ability, then the student should be better at fighting 3 months in than when they began, better at 6 months than at 3 months, better at 1 year than at 6 months. If they can get a 20% handle on the principles of the art, then they should be able to spar with 20% effectiveness. If they can get a 50% handle on the principles of the art, then they should be able to spar with 50% effectiveness. If the whole thing requires 90+% perfection in order to be functional, then something isn't right.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2017)

DanT said:


> I never use bong, ever. At least I try not to. I got rid of bong sau from my sparring a long time ago. Do u find it works well for u?


I believe the "wrong Bong" that you use right arm Bong Shou to block your opponent's right punch is a big NO NO.

I don't use Bong Shou to block a punch. I use it to hide my head behind my arm from punch when I move in. I also use it to break my opponent's jacket grip and twist his body when my opponent hand cannot reach to my elbow joint.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2017)

KPM said:


> You are wasting your time training Wing Chun or any traditional martial art if you entire goal is to be good at sparring.


My goal is not just for sparring. My goal is to integrate the striking art and the throwing art. For example. I have used the

- WC principle that use straight line to counter the circular attack.
- Preying mantis principle that use circular move to counter the straight line attack.

In the early years, I used the WC Tan Shou to "bounce" my opponent's straight punch away so I can move in and attack. Later on I use rhino guard as wedge to separate my opponent's arms away from his body.

The principle of "my arms are in your striking path. If you want to punch me, your have to go through my arms first" is very important. This principle neither exist in my primary MA system long fist, Shuai Chiao, nor it exists in my cross trained systems praying mantis, Baji, Zimen, ... I have to give 100% credit to the WC Tan Shou principle.


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## anerlich (Mar 1, 2017)

I keep hearing about the "deadliness" of Wing Chun techniques, and of the "kill" techniques, but see remarkably little evidence for it/them.

Where are the corpses, and the perpetrators doing hard time for manslaughter? Why are Wing Chun guys not clogging the court systems? How did guys like Emin with his claimed 300+ fights avoid killing even one person?

The easiest way to kill someone while unarmed is to hit them hard from the side or behind when they don't expect it, have them fall over and hit their head on the pavement, a step, pot plant, etc. Plenty of people in jail where I live for that. But all that requires is rage, not skill. No Wing Chun guys among them.

I and most of my clubmates use "head dodging" (which actually comes from the waist, not the neck) to slip or evade punches all the time. If Wing Chun is meant to be effective and efficient, it should recognise that such movements are faster, more efficient, more effective, keep you better protected because you don't always have to use your hands to parry, and can put you in better positions to counterstrike, than trying to step around all the incoming with an immobile spine, looking like you have a broomstick stuck up your clacker. 

Moving targets (the head in this case) are harder to hit. Adding a slipping movement to a pak, larp, bon, etc. can often mean the difference between effective parrying and not in my experience.

I use bon, but really only as a quick deflection with the elbow. Most of the guys I spar with are too quick to let me pass it to the other hand,

I'm a multi-stylist anyway. I don't care whether anyone thinks the way I might spar makes me look like a traitor to their system.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 1, 2017)

Where is the guy who always said:

- This is not WC.
- We don't do this in WC.
- This is against our WC principles.
- This can make WC not "pure".
- Why do you keep bringing ideas from other MA systems into WC discussion?
- ...


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## DanT (Mar 2, 2017)

Im wearing the red gloves, i think at :25 you can clearly see a tan da and at :27 a lap da, etc.. My sparring partner here is way more skilled then me, and has been training for much longer. Any constructive feedback is much appreciated.


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## Juany118 (Mar 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> Im wearing the red gloves, i think at :25 you can clearly see a tan da and at :27 a lap da, etc.. My sparring partner here is way more skilled then me, and has been training for much longer. Any constructive feedback is much appreciated.



First, thank you for sharing...

I actually saw only a couple of "obvious" things.  

First: early on I saw you lean in a couple times finally at the end you opponent appeared to take advantage of that and went to control your head.

Second: when you made some of the kicks above the waist your torso appeared to lean back.  This is an issue, at least with how I am taught to kick, with your straight kicking method.  I'll explain.

I am taught to straight kick in a 4 movement action: knee up>extend leg>retract leg> knee down. 

You appeared to simply lower your leg linearly after extension.  Combine this with the leaning back, if your opponent "caught" your kick, he could have planted you on your butt. 

The reason we train straight kicks as I described is that the retraction can rip my leg free of the "catch." If you are trained differently disregard, I was just projecting how I am taught there regarding the kick itself but that backward lean could be an issue.

Other than that I saw you do one thing that not only my Sifu but a private student of the Sigung of my system have integrated into TWC, with Sigung Cheung's permission actually.  We refer to it as a "Kali cover" or "salute cover".  It's where you brought your hand back to roughly your temple, elbow facing the opponent, to cover an attack to your left side.  This made me smile (in a good way) for a few reasons. I can elaborate if you want, just thought it might be a derail of sorts.


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## KPM (Mar 3, 2017)

Herbie said:


> What I found lacking in Wing Chun was what I refer to as "alive" training.  Not necessarily sparring, but it could include sparring.  Alive training can be totally unstructured - glove up and go at it.  Or semi-structured - OK, you've learned tan, pak, and bong, so I'm going to attack you with punches; see what you can make work.  I learned more about applying WC after I left WC classes, and started working out somewhere that does randori at the end of every class.  Randori as in: partner up, I attack you 3 times and you defend, then we switch.  That's not "sparring", but it's valuable training.  And for what it's worth, I have been amazed at how many bong saos present themselves against those pesky hooking punches.




I agree.  This is what I would call a form of "progressive sparring."


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## DanT (Mar 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> First, thank you for sharing...
> 
> I actually saw only a couple of "obvious" things.
> 
> ...


 Yeah, too much leaning in, and my stance was too wide. My sifu taught us to cover up like that with the hand on temple. Please, elaborate more about what you mean, and thanks for the tips brother!


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## Juany118 (Mar 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> Yeah, too much leaning in, and my stance was too wide. My sifu taught us to cover up like that with the hand on temple. Please, elaborate more about what you mean, and thanks for the tips brother!



In seeing the cover I smiled thinking "I hope that happened because he gets it as well as instinct."  By "get it" I mean the following.

IMO way to many people I think get tied up in terms of techniques.  They think "a tan must look like this", or "I must always revert to man sau/wu sau if I am not actively striking etc." I think some people get wrapped up in these things, they confuse them for the principles of WC that brought them about and so if there is another technique, that equally follows the principles, but it's not in the forms they say "that's not WC."

I am taught WC is a conceptual Martial Art.  To me that means so long as a technique adheres to the core principles of WC it is WC, whether or not it's in the form and that cover does adhere to said principles imo.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I am taught WC is a conceptual Martial Art. To me that means so long as a technique adheres to the core principles of WC it is WC, whether or not it's in the form and that cover does adhere to said principles imo.


That's my view of every art, Juany. Others have different opinions, but to me, it's all about what fits within the principles.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> Im wearing the red gloves, i think at :25 you can clearly see a tan da and at :27 a lap da, etc.. My sparring partner here is way more skilled then me, and has been training for much longer. Any constructive feedback is much appreciated.


Do you use YJKYM? What's your opponent on using YJKYM in sparring?


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## Juany118 (Mar 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's my view of every art, Juany. Others have different opinions, but to me, it's all about what fits within the principles.



Oh I am on board with that idea as well but WC was the first non-hybrid MA I encountered that explicitly says it of itself vs me saying it as a practitioner.  It's probably one of the reasons I was attracted to it.


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## Hyoho (Mar 4, 2017)

wrong post


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## Bino TWT (Aug 6, 2017)

The ones who say you shouldn't spar because they don't want to blunt the edge of their deadly techniques are generally the ones that can't chain punch their way out of a wet paper bag and get clobbered by the drunk untrained guy in the bar with the extra medium Tap Out shirt on.


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## Phobius (Aug 6, 2017)

My problem is that I do not call training for sparring even if I perhaps should.

Sparring is a bad word in people's mind. Instead it is better to do alive training and execute it just like sparring. That way people only hear "alive training" and don't think it is about getting their head smashed in.

Fighting three people at once that are limited to simple kicks and boxing only, this is not sparring. It is simply drilling against multiple opponents.

Having people move around avoid getting hit and trying to find a good position, angle, distance and timing to strike back. That is not sparring but rather a drill to remove stiffness, maintain structure and train your mind to see what is and is not there.

So in truth, I do not do as much sparring as I would like. More alive training in what I do so far, or when educating others I often prefer to have them hitting me and do my best to avoid being hit while trying to demonstrate why or how they should move. Being unprepared by what will come I have to step up my game and if my focus drifts then in worst case scenario I can always show them in a more structured drill fashion with a hint that they need to explore it for themselves eventually.

Problem I have still is talking and instructing while taking hits that does not necessarily look at all like WC is good training but whenever I lost track of what I was trying to say or how I should say it.... it can sometime cause me to get hit myself. Leading to some laughter from my students.

Then again I am not my sifu as I have told the students. I have still much to learn and make many errors myself so they should never trust me... or my sifu... only trust what they figured out themselves.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 6, 2017)

Better to educate people about sparring and the various types of sparring, than to make up a term for the sole purpose of easing someone's mind.  Educate them and explain what you do and what you don't do.  Don't baby the mind with feel good terms.

Not saying that Alive training is bad or useless just saying that it's different from sparring.  If you do alive training instead of sparring then great.   If you do alive training because people don't like the word sparring then you could be degrading the things that help people learn how to actually use your system.


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## Martial D (Aug 7, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Better to educate people about sparring and the various types of sparring, than to make up a term for the sole purpose of easing someone's mind.  Educate them and explain what you do and what you don't do.  Don't baby the mind with feel good terms.
> 
> Not saying that Alive training is bad or useless just saying that it's different from sparring.  If you do alive training instead of sparring then great.   If you do alive training because people don't like the word sparring then you could be degrading the things that help people learn how to actually use your system.


Alive train...sparring..whatever. just words.

What it boils down to is simple..to get good at an activity you must do the activity. Therefore, if the activity is fighting...fight.

This is of course not practical to those of us that need our arms and legs for other things(ie we would prefer not to be injured all the time), so we must decide for ourselves how closely we want to simulate 'fighting' in training. It's the classic risk vs reward scenario.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 7, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Alive train...sparring..whatever. just words.


Words matter and have meaning. Define how you see Alive training.  Now is it the same as Tai Chi push hands that beginners do in training.  Is it the same as sparring at a slower pace for the purpose of giving each of the students an opportunity to learn and see their mistakes.  Is it the same as no contact sparring?  Or in my case partner shadow boxing sparring, where students start off by shadow boxing and but using each other to help visualize our imaginary target.  Would any of these be the same as alive training?


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## DaveB (Aug 7, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Words matter and have meaning. Define how you see Alive training.  Now is it the same as Tai Chi push hands that beginners do in training.  Is it the same as sparring at a slower pace for the purpose of giving each of the students an opportunity to learn and see their mistakes.  Is it the same as no contact sparring?  Or in my case partner shadow boxing sparring, where students start off by shadow boxing and but using each other to help visualize our imaginary target.  Would any of these be the same as alive training?


Words do have meaning but individual usage varies and once we step into the murky world of terminologies it gets even more individual. My own definitions of sparring vs alive training is different to both of yours.

No amount if chest beating will bring everyone aroundbto one way of doing things. Sometimes you just have to ask what people mean.


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## Martial D (Aug 7, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Define how you see Alive training.



I thought I just did. Alive training would be training in a way that mimics the activity you are training for as closely as possible.


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## KPM (Aug 7, 2017)

When I was doing FMA, the term "alive training" meant really anything that departed from a rote drill.   In other words, you could do a drill that repeated the same motions over and over....like single sticking hands in Wing Chun, or you could do a drill that was much more unpredictable and variable....like "free" double sticking hands in Wing Chun.  The second would be considered "alive" while the first would not.  Certainly sparring would be considered "alive", but other forms of training were considered "alive" as well as long as they required "responding on the fly" and  were unpredictable.


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## wingchun100 (Aug 7, 2017)

Sparring is needed in more WC schools. That is my opinion. Full stop.


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