# Aikido vs anything?



## Fimbulvinter

I have problems finding a video really showing aikido. I just see demonstrations like Steven Segal taking out 10 people that just run at him and having attacks that aren't even directed at the guy. 

I guess those demonstrations are the reason why aikido is pretty much ridiculed and said not to work. but i believe it has to be good for something...

so, anyone have a video of aikido in real action? :0


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## Shizen Shigoku

Any video in which the people are in good moods and not fighting -

that is aikido.


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## Fimbulvinter

how perfectly idyllic.


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## chav buster

it dosnt work, thats the whole truth


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## morph4me

If you're looking for real aikido, I'd suggest going to an aikido dojo and watching or participating in a class.


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## terryl965

morph4me said:


> If you're looking for real aikido, I'd suggest going to an aikido dojo and watching or participating in a class.


 
I agree go try a few classes and then make your own opinion about the Art in question.


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## Korppi76

chav buster said:


> it dosnt work, thats the whole truth


Last time me or my teachers used it it worked. Maybe we do it wrong.


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## chav buster

Korppi76 said:


> Last time me or my teachers used it it worked. Maybe we do it wrong.


 im sure it does work great in the dojo but wrist and standing arm locks are hard enough to apply with  strikes and to set them up and are impossible to do so in real life without. 

i dont want to offend and if you do it for fun or what ever fine but dont confuse it a practical fightin art.


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## morph4me

chav buster said:


> im sure it does work great in the dojo but wrist and standing arm locks are hard enough to apply with strikes and to set them up and are impossible to do so in real life without.
> 
> i dont want to offend and if you do it for fun or what ever fine but dont confuse it a practical fightin art.


 
I suppose this opinion is based on your vast experience in the martial arts and the practical application of aikido techniques in particular.


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## chav buster

morph4me said:


> I suppose this opinion is based on your vast experience in the martial arts and the practical application of aikido techniques in particular.


 yes


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## morph4me

Just asking, because I don't seem to have any problems using aikido techniques against realistic attacks :idunno:


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## chav buster

morph4me said:


> Just asking, because I don't seem to have any problems using aikido techniques against realistic attacks :idunno:


 when i was growing up my best friends dad was a very high ranking aikido a guy and we would spend maybe 2 hours every day, 7 days a week learning and practicing aikido! i did this for around 5 years , as i wasnt forally training i never bothered with gradings but i must of been black belt level and my friend had been training since he could walk and after about 2 weeks of boxing i would wipe the floor with him the fact is you cant catch punches or what not ect its a beautiful art but martial its not.


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## hungfistron

> I have problems finding a video really showing aikido. I just see demonstrations like Steven Segal taking out 10 people that just run at him and having attacks that aren't even directed at the guy.
> 
> I guess those demonstrations are the reason why aikido is pretty much ridiculed and said not to work. but i believe it has to be good for something...
> 
> so, anyone have a video of aikido in real action?




I would suggest reading at least 2 books about Aikido to help you form a general idea.  Aikido is not something that you can understand just by looking at video's, even though many may think that this is possible.

If you really would like to understand in my opinion this wonderful style, here are a few books you can pickup...
_*
Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere*_ - Adele Westbrook, Oscar Ratti
_*The Dao of Physics*_ -  Fritjof Capra
*Budo -* Teachings of the Founder Morihei Ueshiba


Honestly, even if you are not interested in learning Aikido these books would be a great addition to your library.




> it dosnt work, thats the whole truth




Statements like these are very disrespectful to those that devote their lives to this particular style. When you type things of this nature, you not only disrespect many who are alive, but those that have passed away as well...


*http://www.amazon.com/Teachings-Founder-Aikido-Ueshiba-Karate/dp/4770020708*


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## chav buster

hungfistron said:


> Statements like these are very disrespectful to those that devote their lives to this particular style. When you type things of this nature, you not only disrespect many who are alive, but those that have passed away as well...


well statements like that may save said life if it means he dosnt try to use aikido in a real fight.

if its so great it will be easy to prove and you can become some what of a trail blazer by being the first person in history by putting the first real aikido fight on the net.

get padded up with headguards gum shields grain guards and mma gloves as hundreds of thousands of people everyday do in boxing thaiboxing mma karate ect dojo's do everyday and  have a full contact mma sparring session and then post it on youtube. this should be easy considering how much aikido trains fighting multiple oponents so one should be easy


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## Kumbajah

Fimbulvinter said:


> I have problems finding a video really showing aikido. I just see demonstrations like Steven Segal taking out 10 people that just run at him and having attacks that aren't even directed at the guy.
> 
> I guess those demonstrations are the reason why aikido is pretty much ridiculed and said not to work. but i believe it has to be good for something...
> 
> so, anyone have a video of aikido in real action? :0



Please post a video of any non-sport MA in "real action."


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## chav buster

Kumbajah said:


> Please post a video of any non-sport MA in "real action."


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## Kumbajah

Nice Irimi - Good Aikido


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## chav buster

Kumbajah said:


> Nice Irimi - Good Aikido


 lol thats a bit of a stretch of the imagination.


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## Kumbajah

Why? - He enters (irimi) and takes and controls the space - Aikido.


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## Aiki Lee

Chav buster,

Your comments are ignorant and likely formed on the basis of your own failure to understand the system of aikido.

While aikido is not a combat system exactly is does have combat applications since it is mainly derived from a combative art called daito ryu.

In my dojo we don't practice aikido, but we practice aiki movements and when done right they can be used with any kind of committed attack even the all powerful boxers and mma and muy thai fighters.

The first lesson of aikido is entering which is to seal the gap and close distance, often one can set up a strike during these movements as any qualified aikidoka or aikijujutsuka would tell you to do in the case of a real fight.

Is it difficult to use in a real fight? That depends on your training. If you train against realistic attacks (which not everyone does) then you will have a better chance at success.

Just because you can't make it work doesn't mean it won't work when a skilled person is using it. That arguement would be like me saying that a gun jammed on me and wouldn't fire so therefore guns don't work. Do you see the fallacy there?


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## morph4me

chav buster said:


> when i was growing up my best friends dad was a very high ranking aikido a guy and we would spend maybe 2 hours every day, 7 days a week learning and practicing aikido! i did this for around 5 years , as i wasnt forally training i never bothered with gradings but i must of been black belt level and my friend had been training since he could walk and after about 2 weeks of boxing i would wipe the floor with him *the fact is you cant catch punches* or what not ect its a beautiful art but martial its not.


 
It's true, you can't catch punches. If that's what you were trying to do, it's no wonder that your aikido wasn't effective.


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## chav buster

i didnt say some of the techniques didnt work i actuelly said that most of the standing arm locks need to be set up with strike just like yourself and like yourself i have stated its not a combat system. what i did say was that as a martial art it is not practical for self defence.
Ueshiba Morihei took the practical side out of jujitsu and what your left with is an art that is not practical for self defence hence why no one can find any vids of people doing full cointact sparring using aikido or why anyone is prepared to make one.


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## hungfistron

> Ueshiba Morihei took the practical side out of jujitsu and what your left with is an art that is not practical for self defence hence why no one can find any vids of people doing full cointact sparring using aikido or why anyone is prepared to make one.



Please realize that you are in the _Aikido Forum,_ describing how "non practical" the work of the _Founder of Aikido_ is to students that have been studying him and his style for years...


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## Kumbajah

chav buster said:


> i didnt say some of the techniques didnt work i actuelly said that most of the standing arm locks need to be set up with strike just like yourself and like yourself i have stated its not a combat system. what i did say was that as a martial art it is not practical for self defence.
> Ueshiba Morihei took the practical side out of jujitsu and what your left with is an art that is not practical for self defence hence why no one can find any vids of people doing full cointact sparring using aikido or why anyone is prepared to make one.



You did say they didn't work - your first post this thread  



> it dosnt work, thats the whole truth



Your comments demonstrate a lack of understanding imo - Catching punches etc - needing to strike to make it work etc. 

But if you are comfortable in your opinion keep it - I don't think you are going to make any converts in the Aikido Forum  I don't think Aikido is any poorer for your lack of participation or negative opinion. If you don't get it - you don't get it.


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## Aiki Lee

Just because the philosophy of aikido is one of peace and non resistance doesn't mean the techniques won't work in a self-defense situation. I think a person would have to be highly skilled to use _only_ aikido for the purpose of self-defence, but it is not impossible.


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## morph4me

chav buster said:


> i didnt say some of the techniques didnt work i actuelly said that most of the standing arm locks need to be set up with strike just like yourself and like yourself i have stated its not a combat system. what i did say was that as a martial art it is not practical for self defence.
> Ueshiba Morihei took the practical side out of jujitsu and what your left with is an art that is not practical for self defence hence why no one can find any vids of people doing full cointact sparring using aikido or why anyone is prepared to make one.


 
I don't know who it is you're referring to, but I certainly didn't say that it's not a combat system and I didn't say it's nto practical for self defense. Setting up with a strike is part of aikido, that's what atemi is all about. But as Kumbajah said 


> I don't think Aikido is any poorer for your lack of participation or negative opinion. If you don't get it - you don't get it.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I personally know a number of LEO's that have used aikido training out there on the streets.  It worked for them. :idunno:


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## Shizen Shigoku

chav buster said:


> ... hence why no one can find any vids of people doing full cointact sparring using aikido or why anyone is prepared to make one.



What would that even look like? Full contact sparring between aikidoka... Two aikidoka meet in the ring, bow, shake hands, then leave.

As far as real-world self-defense: I've used aikido techniques in real fights and it worked just fine.  *shrug* I'm sorry your personal experience with it wasn't very satisfying...


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## K-man

chav buster said:


> i didnt say some of the techniques didnt work i actuelly said that most of the standing arm locks need to be set up with strike just like yourself and like yourself i have stated its not a combat system. *what i did say was that as a martial art it is not practical for self defence.*
> Ueshiba Morihei took the practical side out of jujitsu and what your left with is an art that is not practical for self defence hence why no one can find any vids of people doing full cointact sparring using aikido or why anyone is prepared to make one.


 Don't forget self defence is defence against an attack, not to launch an attack.  Good aikido can be good for self defence if the practitioner has the necessary skills. 
I have seen bad TKD and bad karate as well.


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## jarrod

chav buster said:


>



while i disagree with your overall assessment of aikido, i had never seen that video with commentary, & it was hilarious.  thanks.

anyway, i have this theory that a lot of the arts that have a reputation for being ineffective often don't suffer from poor techniques or strategies, but from poor training methods.  as many styles age, their methods become formalized or rigid, or in some cases standards are lowered in order to increase popularity.  this is certainly the case with many aikido dojos (as well as karate, tkd, or any martial art that has been around for a 100 years or so), but in all honesty the style itself is valid.  aikido may have lended itself more to this corruption because of it's lofty philosophy which is worthwile, but lends itself to misinterpretation.  but i believe the art itself is still sound.

jf


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## Aikicomp

Fimbulvinter said:


> I have problems finding a video really showing aikido. *I just see demonstrations like Steven Segal taking out 10 people that just run at him and having attacks that aren't even directed at the guy. *
> 
> I guess those demonstrations are the reason why aikido is pretty much ridiculed and said not to work. but i believe it has to be good for something...
> 
> so, anyone have a video of aikido in real action? :0


 
That's probably because it is for demonstration purposes very different than a real attack.

I would like to see you attack Take Sensei with him fully understanding that you intend to injure or hurt him. I'm willing to bet that you will find out very quickly "the something it is good for".

Michael


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## Aikicomp

Himura Kenshin said:


> Chav buster,
> 
> Your comments are ignorant and likely formed on the basis of your own failure to understand the system of aikido.
> 
> While aikido is not a combat system exactly is does have combat applications since it is mainly derived from a combative art called daito ryu.
> 
> In my dojo we don't practice aikido, but we practice aiki movements and when done right they can be used with any kind of committed attack even the all powerful boxers and mma and muy thai fighters.
> 
> The first lesson of aikido is entering which is to seal the gap and close distance, often one can set up a strike during these movements as any qualified aikidoka or aikijujutsuka would tell you to do in the case of a real fight.
> 
> Is it difficult to use in a real fight? That depends on your training. If you train against realistic attacks (which not everyone does) then you will have a better chance at success.
> 
> Just because you can't make it work doesn't mean it won't work when a skilled person is using it. That arguement would be like me saying that a gun jammed on me and wouldn't fire so therefore guns don't work. Do you see the fallacy there?


 
+1 good posting.

I teach Ju-Jitsu with aspects of Aikido/Aiki-jujutsu mixed in and as I have gotten older I use more Aikido technique and principle in my Ju-Jitsu (it is easier). Having said that I am no expert in Aikido, however this is how I understand it:

Aikido in it's pure form is a way to defend yourself without causing undue injury to your opponent, essentially you take care of your opponent (via harmony and timing) while stopping them from hurting you. Now keep in mind the same techniques used in Aikido to take care of your opponent can also be used to destroy your opponent as well.

Examples would be:

*Kote Gaieshi* can be used to throw and/or control someone by locking the wrist joint without injury to the wrist or it can be used to totally destroy the wrist joint. 

*Shihonage* can be used to throw and/or control someone by locking the wrist, elbow and shoulder without injuring the person or it can be used to destroy the wrist, elbow and shoulder of your opponent as well.

*Nikyu and Sankyu* can be used to control and/or throw an opponent by locking the wrist and elbow without injuring or it can be used to destroy the wrist and elbow.

If I'm incorrect in any of these applications an Aikidoka who studies purely Aikido can explain it better than I.

The bottom line is IMO, Any Martial Art can be used as a very effective way of defending oneself do not assume that just because something "looks" gentle or passive that it can not be destructive as well.


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## mook jong man

Whats to say that the attacker coudn't be softened up first with a couple of strikes or maybe a low kick , and then go into jointlocking once contact with the arms has been made .

 Thats the way I would do it , I also think its very bad form to come on here and start generalising about these people's style .


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## Korppi76

chav buster said:


> im sure it does work great in the dojo but wrist and standing arm locks are hard enough to apply with  strikes and to set them up and are impossible to do so in real life without.
> 
> i dont want to offend and if you do it for fun or what ever fine but dont confuse it a practical fightin art.


I did meant outside of our dojo  My teacher works part time securiguard (when he isn't teaching). I use aikido when sparring with friends how train other martial arts.

But I have to admit it is hard to use aikido, I slip easily to some methods from other arts. And I don't use joint locks except when ground where I can control other better. My teacher can lock active persons while standing but he has trained more than twice as long as me.


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## chav buster

Aikicomp said:


> +1 good posting.
> 
> I teach Ju-Jitsu with aspects of Aikido/Aiki-jujutsu mixed in and as I have gotten older I use more Aikido technique and principle in my Ju-Jitsu (it is easier). Having said that I am no expert in Aikido, however this is how I understand it:
> 
> *Aikido in it's pure form is a way to defend yourself without causing undue injury to your opponent, essentially you take care of your opponent (via harmony and timing) while stopping them from hurting you. Now keep in mind the same techniques used in Aikido to take care of your opponent can also be used to destroy your opponent as well.*
> 
> Examples would be:
> 
> *Kote Gaieshi* can be used to throw and/or control someone by locking the wrist joint without injury to the wrist or it can be used to totally destroy the wrist joint.
> 
> *Shihonage* can be used to throw and/or control someone by locking the wrist, elbow and shoulder without injuring the person or it can be used to destroy the wrist, elbow and shoulder of your opponent as well.
> 
> *Nikyu and Sankyu* can be used to control and/or throw an opponent by locking the wrist and elbow without injuring or it can be used to destroy the wrist and elbow.
> 
> If I'm incorrect in any of these applications an Aikidoka who studies purely Aikido can explain it better than I.
> 
> The bottom line is IMO, Any Martial Art can be used as a very effective way of defending oneself do not assume that just because something "looks" gentle or passive that it can not be destructive as well.


 thats was my point really, it works in the dojo but against an attack thats trying to do you damage and is rully ressisting  it just dosnt work.


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## chav buster

Kumbajah said:


> You did say they didn't work - your first post this thread
> 
> 
> 
> Your comments demonstrate a lack of understanding imo - Catching punches etc - needing to strike to make it work etc.
> 
> But if you are comfortable in your opinion keep it - I don't think you are going to make any converts in the Aikido Forum  I don't think Aikido is any poorer for your lack of participation or negative opinion. If you don't get it - you don't get it.


 im not trying to convert anyone way from aikido, if you have been training in it for years and enjoy it good for you but if anyone is thinking about taking up aikido for self defence i hope i have given them something to think abour.

like i said before standing joint locks can work if you stun someone with strikes sort of like using the jab to set up the cross.

the elephant in the room as far as aikido is no one seems prepared to do full contact sparring using aikido, it dosnt have to be against a skilled fighter just somone coming full on and someone using aikido..


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## Chris Parker

Hi,

Sorry, Chav, I've got to take everyone else's side here. Aikido is multi-faceted, and while I can see your argument that it is not the most practical of systems, I would hesitate to say that it simply doesn't work at all.

As stated by many others, it will often depend on how you train it, just like any other art. I also feel you may be (unfairly?) taking one version of the art, and the way you were taught it as the only method in which Aikido is transmitted.

For a "harder-edged" version, I would look to the Yoshinkan group, who take their teachings from Gozo Shioda, who was a first generation student of Ueshiba Sensei. Shioda left Ueshiba when O-Sensei began changing his philosophical approach to a more "gentle", or pacifist way of thinking. Shioda began teaching Aikido according to the way he learnt it. And where he learnt it was in the early school, known quite appropriately and accurately, as Jigoku Dojo, or the Hell Dojo, due to it's reputation for very rough training and quite serious application of techniques.

Oh, and Ueshiba Sensei himself said that Atemi is essential, so any Aikido school not teaching that at some point is missing a major part of the art. Is there the chance that that aspect was perhaps missed in your experience? So, yes, the use of strikes is not only evident in Aikido, in order to apply the techniques, it is consideredvery important. But the training is often done without the strikes, so the student doesn't get lazy about applying the principles of the art.


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## chav buster

Chris Parker said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry, Chav, I've got to take everyone else's side here. Aikido is multi-faceted, and while I can see your argument that it is not the most practical of systems, I would hesitate to say that it simply doesn't work at all.
> 
> As stated by many others, it will often depend on how you train it, just like any other art. I also feel you may be (unfairly?) taking one version of the art, and the way you were taught it as the only method in which Aikido is transmitted.
> 
> For a "harder-edged" version, I would look to the Yoshinkan group, who take their teachings from Gozo Shioda, who was a first generation student of Ueshiba Sensei. Shioda left Ueshiba when O-Sensei began changing his philosophical approach to a more "gentle", or pacifist way of thinking. Shioda began teaching Aikido according to the way he learnt it. And where he learnt it was in the early school, known quite appropriately and accurately, as Jigoku Dojo, or the Hell Dojo, due to it's reputation for very rough training and quite serious application of techniques.
> 
> Oh, and Ueshiba Sensei himself said that Atemi is essential, so any Aikido school not teaching that at some point is missing a major part of the art. Is there the chance that that aspect was perhaps missed in your experience? So, yes, the use of strikes is not only evident in Aikido, in order to apply the techniques, it is consideredvery important. But the training is often done without the strikes, so the student doesn't get lazy about applying the principles of the art.


 ok fair enough you make some very good points  but i still stand by what i have said about its practicality, maybe i was to harsh in saying its totally useless but i still think if you spent your time in a more practical ma you would be alot better off  if you got into a real fight, aikido is concept of practicality


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## Chris Parker

Cool. It just means what you mean by "practical". I know of one Aikido practitioner who, when faced with a violent attack, simply and immediately broke his assailants arm, and I know of another who simply intercepted a person who was harassing passengers on a train, sat him down, and defused the entire situation (without any escalation into physical action). These two are, to me, perfect examples of Aikido's practical side.

To clarify, I think we need to look at exactly what is meant by self defence. It is simply the application of skills developed to protect you from danger/harm. Most people only take the very narrow view of that as being physically devestating techniques against violent assaults, but a true (and therefore, much more practical) self-defence system also includes methods of avoiding conflict, and gradiated physical responces from simple, gentle control to pre-emptive strikes or attacks. And in this, I believe that Aikido is actually more practical (in it's complete sense) than most other arts, such as karate, BJJ, MMA etc. But each to their own...


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## Kumbajah

chav buster said:


> the elephant in the room as far as aikido is no one seems prepared to do full contact sparring using aikido, it dosnt have to be against a skilled fighter just somone coming full on and someone using aikido..



Do you understand there is a difference between Fighting, sport application (sparring) and self defense? 

Fighting is willingly doing more violence to someone before they can do it to you, Sport is trying to best someone using a predetermined set of techniques and rules, Self defense is simply getting away from danger.


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## chav buster

Kumbajah said:


> Do you understand there is a difference between Fighting, sport application (sparring) and self defense?
> 
> Fighting is willingly doing more violence to someone before they can do it to you, Sport is trying to best someone using a predetermined set of techniques and rules, Self defense is simply getting away from danger.


correct me if im wrong but theres not really any techniques in aikido that are illegal in say mma rules sparring. if its good enough for  you to practice dealing with slow attacks you know are coming and know whats coming then a mma rules or boxing or kick boxing or anything else type of sparring is going to be alot more realistic and closer to a real fight then the dance that you learn in aikido. i mean really have you never asked yourself these questions?


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## Kumbajah

chav buster said:


> correct me if im wrong but theres not really any techniques in aikido that are illegal in say mma rules sparring. if its good enough for  you to practice dealing with slow attacks you know are coming and know whats coming then a mma rules or boxing or kick boxing or anything else type of sparring is going to be alot more realistic and closer to a real fight then the dance that you learn in aikido. i mean really have you never asked yourself these questions?




So are you _Now_ saying that Aikido isn't good for sport applications? ( which is different from Self Defense and different from not working at all - your two other tacks) 

I'll ask again - You do realize that a "fight" is different from self defense?


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## Jenna

chav buster said:


> i never bothered with gradings but i must of been black belt level


Classic


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## chav buster

Kumbajah said:


> So are you _Now_ saying that Aikido isn't good for sport applications? ( which is different from Self Defense and different from not working at all - your two other tacks)
> 
> I'll ask again - You do realize that a "fight" is different from self defense?


 what im saying like the lad who started the thread is i want to see aikido put under pressure with full contact strikes grabs ect call it what you want a force on force drill sparring whatever, not a pre determined slow and paused strikes that the aikido person dosnt know exactly whats coming. lets hope if you ever do get into a self defence situation your attack dosnt do anything like kicks punches elbows knee's or any other technique that could be mistaken for something that could be used in sparring. 
i want to see this done when you dont know he's going to throw a full power hook hook


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## Kumbajah

As a Aikido "Black Belt" you didn't engage in Randori - "free practice" ? Most organizations start randori in the kyu ranks.


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## Aikikitty

I think there has been some very good responses so far. :asian: Although I am surprised we haven't seen theletch pop up yet. 

My sensei and another one of our blackbelts are both cops and I know they've used Aikido (yes, even the joint locks) in the "real world". I'm in a situation where I've had to use Aikido on a mentally ill person who went beserk, and I used it to control them without causing injury until he calmed down enough to be "normal" again.

I think Aikido is great for defense when trained properly. But sadly, there are many Aikido dojos that don't use strikes or practice with ANY resistance. They're the ones that I think would get a "rude awakening". In my dojo we practice strikes, randori, and we spar.

That being said, if a friend asked me that they needed to learn effective self defense quickly, I wouldn't point them towards Aikido. Aikido takes a long time to learn (especially if it's your first martial art) as there are so many tiny details, and even longer to know when, how, and on whom to use which techniques on. When I was a beginner, I thought once I "learned" a technique I could use it on anyone and anytime. Now that I've been in it longer, I realized that certain techniques work better with some body types than others. For example, there's a BIG guy in my dojo and when he comes at me and strikes Shomenuchi with a lot of force, it's much easier and more practical (for me) moving offline and going into an Irimi (or another technique like kotegaieshi) than a Ikkyo (omote, especially). Sure there are people who can "make" a technique work, but there's a difference between flowing into a technique or being a bull-in-a-china-shop and trying to force something that isn't there from the beginning. That also goes leads into the whole concept of not "planning" a certain technique, but going into the most appropriate technique for "whatever" the attacker gives you!

Robyn :asian:


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## Aiki Lee

Yes aikido does take a long time to be useful, but once you understand it it is a very good way to protect one's self. 

Chav buster, you simply do not understand the principle's of aiki and based on your comments I doubt you were at black belt level, which even if you were, is not a high rank. 

You offer up no real evidence to suggest that aiki movements wouldn't work so unless you come up with some I suggest you stop talking about the subject until you have some real information.


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## chav buster

ok well gross motor skills will generally beat fine motor skills thats just a fact. now why dont you give me some evidence say full contact randori of say a fine motor skill aikido working against a gross motor still say a hook.


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## Kumbajah

Yokomen Ikkyo/NiKyo/Sankyo Omote - Compare to Tony Blauer's Spear


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## Aiki Lee

Gokyo works very well against a hook. As does rokyo *or any aiki technique.*

If the technique starts to fail use the principle of mushin and switch to a different technique that fits the situation.

The gorss motor skills involved are move, hit, turn. Those are essential to aikido, aiki jujutsu and aiki ninjutsu.


----------



## morph4me

chav buster said:


> what im saying like the lad who started the thread is i want to see aikido put under pressure with full contact strikes grabs ect call it what you want a force on force drill sparring whatever, not a pre determined slow and paused strikes that the aikido person dosnt know exactly whats coming. lets hope if you ever do get into a self defence situation your attack dosnt do anything like kicks punches elbows knee's or any other technique that could be mistaken for something that could be used in sparring.
> i want to see this done when you dont know he's going to throw a full power hook hook


 
I guess that depends on how you practice, I can speak only for where I train, and full speed and power attacks are the norm for anyone above about 3rd kyu. These include hooks, kicks, backhands, uppercuts, grabs and grappling tecniques, etc. we call them self defense lines, and the defender has no idea what's coming. You've already been told that people have used aikido on the streets successfully, but if it makes you feel better, you go on insisting that because you can't do it, it doesn't work.


----------



## theletch1

Hi, Opal!! Thanks for thinking of me.  I haven't popped up for a couple of reasons.  1) I've been getting things ready to go back to college (yes, at my age)  and 2) I've seen tro- er... folks like this in this forum for as long as the aikido forum has been active.  Aikido is one of those arts that you must study with an eye toward using the philosophy of the art more so than the individual techniques of the art.  By that I mean entering, taking control of the energy, redirecting it and finishing the technique.  It doesn't mean "Ok, he threw a jab so I have to do technique what ever."  When understood at its' depth aikido philosophy will end the fight before it ever moves to physical technique by following the basics on a psychological level... enter, assume control of the energy flow, redirect the hostility away from its' intended target, finish the altercation without injury to anyone.  This is, of course, the ideal and not always the actuality.  

Having said that I'll excuse myself from this conversation as I grow tired of repeating myself to every half wit that didn't have the self discipline to actually study the art with a mind toward training the mind and spirit as well as the body... arguing with walls isn't conducive to harmony, ya know.


----------



## jarrod

chav buster said:


> correct me if im wrong but theres not really any techniques in aikido that are illegal in say mma rules sparring. if its good enough for  you to practice dealing with slow attacks you know are coming and know whats coming then a mma rules or boxing or kick boxing or anything else type of sparring is going to be alot more realistic and closer to a real fight then the dance that you learn in aikido. i mean really have you never asked yourself these questions?



actually wrist locks are prohibited in mma, which is a pretty good portion of aikido's arsenal.  i have no aikido training, but i pull off wrist locks during sparring pretty regularly.  

jf


----------



## tempus

Since it is based off of a lot of the Samurai arts, someone better go back in time and tell them they doing things wrong on the battlefield.

Comes down to training. Train me in any art two nights weeks and then put me against a person who trains 8 hours a day. I will have the same chances. My options are run or kick them in the balls. Just my opinion from my level of training.

-Gary


----------



## K-man

Kumbajah said:


> As a Aikido "Black Belt" you didn't engage in Randori - "free practice" ? Most organizations start randori in the kyu ranks.


What might confuse some is that randori is normally performed with multiple attackers attacking one after the other, not simultaneously. In the early stages of your training the attacks may be predetermined, slow and are usually telegraphed. The video here shows what I think is good randori in that Nage is always moving towards Uke, not holding back waiting for the attack. This example is performed at better speed, but even so it is just a training tool, not an example of what Aikido can do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr8DJWKI28c&feature=related


----------



## chav buster

jarrod said:


> actually wrist locks are prohibited in mma, which is a pretty good portion of aikido's arsenal. i have no aikido training, but i pull off wrist locks during sparring pretty regularly.
> 
> jf


 wrist locks are legal in mma, i actuelly won a fight using one from a failed omoplata there just near impissible to do because of the gloves and wraps.


----------



## jarrod

just double checked & you are correct.  i thought it fell under small joint manipulation.  cograts on your win.

jf


----------



## chav buster

jarrod said:


> just double checked & you are correct. i thought it fell under small joint manipulation. cograts on your win.
> 
> jf


 thanks, i can never pull of omoplatas anyway so its the first thing i go for or i will over hook the leg roll them over the top of me and take the side mount.


----------



## Aiki Lee

K-man said:


> What might confuse some is that randori is normally performed with multiple attackers attacking one after the other, not simultaneously.


 
At first, yes, but training progresses to multiple attackers trying to beat the crap out of you together as a team.


----------



## DBZ

I am not an akido user/student but I know many that are. Am I right in thinking that akido was a self defence art that was meant to not harm you or the attacker? If so than why would you ever use it in an MMA type fight were your goal is to knock out or pin your attacker? That sounds like a ball room dancer trying to break dance


----------



## Aiki Lee

You bring up a good point DBZ. From my understanding, O-Sensei Ueshiba created aikido from his understanding of diato ryu because he thought that such violence was not necessary for the common era. Aikido was created to be a method to protect onself by harmonizing with everything around you. This makes it much easier to avoid fighting in the first place and the physical self-defense techniques are applicable to an aggressive attacker. If the attacker isn't agressive, why fight him? Aikido does not appear in MMA not because it doesn't work, but because that goes against the philosophy of aikido.


----------



## DBZ

Himura Kenshin said:


> You bring up a good point DBZ. From my understanding, O-Sensei Ueshiba created aikido from his understanding of diato ryu because he thought that such violence was not necessary for the common era. Aikido was created to be a method to protect onself by harmonizing with everything around you. This makes it much easier to avoid fighting in the first place and the physical self-defense techniques are applicable to an aggressive attacker. If the attacker isn't agressive, why fight him? Aikido does not appear in MMA not because it doesn't work, but because that goes against the philosophy of aikido.


 

 Makes perfects sense to me. I like the philosophy of akido because I think martial arts should be for protection not to go out and woop up on somebody. I study MA to protect myself and others.


----------



## Chris Parker

Himura Kenshin said:


> You bring up a good point DBZ. From my understanding, O-Sensei Ueshiba created aikido from his understanding of diato ryu because he thought that such violence was not necessary for the common era. Aikido was created to be a method to protect onself by harmonizing with everything around you. This makes it much easier to avoid fighting in the first place and the physical self-defense techniques are applicable to an aggressive attacker. If the attacker isn't agressive, why fight him? Aikido does not appear in MMA not because it doesn't work, but because that goes against the philosophy of aikido.


 
Close, Himura... O-Sensei did create Aikido out of a variety of sources, the most prominent of which was Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, but also some weaponry systems such as Kukishin Ryu and Yagyu Shinkange Ryu, and of course, his own natural ability to see a martial art in practice and understand the finer details pretty much instantly.

However, I would disagree with the idea that he created it "because he thought such violence was not necessary". If we go back ino Ueshiba Sensei's history, he spent much of his time prior to WWII being quite a "physical" enforcer of very right-wing political beliefs, as well as having a number of very violent encounters during WWII itself (adding to the development of the art). It was after this that he started to take a much more spiritual approach, and the art became what people normally associate with the term Aikido today. Just remember, the original Aikido school was the Hell Dojo (Jigoku Dojo), and it was not named in jest...

The idea of harmonizing with an attacker can be done gently, and in a way that removes much of the potential danger for an attacker to be injured... but you can also harmonize in such a way that increases the amount of damage done. It is all the same, and to only think of harmonizing as a "gentle" approach is to only see a small part of the entire enigma that is Aikido. There is so much more for you to delve into, and so much more for you to experience, and so much more that can add to your understanding and your life.


----------



## theletch1

Chris, that is quite possibly one of the best posts I've seen in a while.  Far, far too often folks see aikido as Ueshiba Sensei eventually evolved it... they see aikido as Ueshiba saw it after years of personal growth not as he envisioned it in the beginning.  There are tons of different sub-styles of aikido and they run the gamut from little more than meditation exercises to styles (like mine) that blur the line between -do and -jutsu.  :asian:


----------



## Aiki Lee

I was unaware of Ueshiba's ties to those other martial arts. See? This is why I joined martial talk, I have abetter understanding of something I care about.

I was under the impression that Ueshiba molded aikido into a more "compassionate" martial art. Though the "gentleness" seems anything but gentle to the villian on the recieving end. I honestly don't know more than most non-aikidoka  do about him, although I am aware that he was a powerful martial artist that could kill if need be, but I was unaware that he fought during the war.

So if I was mistaken about why aikido was created, is there a different reason for why he made the art the way he did?


----------



## morph4me

As I understand it he got involved with religion and modified his teaching and application to be more in line with his religious beliefs.


----------



## Archangel M

My Aikido knowledge is purely via books, videos and 1-2 short seminar demos. However I have to admit that I would "buy" Aikidos combat effectiveness more if I saw demos with realistic attacks vs. the every attack being an overhead open-hand chop or the attacker just sticking his arm out for the defender to grab.


----------



## Archangel M

Its also very easy to "flow" when your opponent is "flowing" with you and not actively trying to **** you up.


----------



## Kumbajah

Archangel M said:


> My Aikido knowledge is purely via books, videos and 1-2 short seminar demos. However I have to admit that I would "buy" Aikidos combat effectiveness more if I saw demos with realistic attacks vs. the every attack being an overhead open-hand chop or the attacker just sticking his arm out for the defender to grab.



Realistic in what context? I think this criticism could be leveled at any asian martial - where outside a MA context have you ever seen someone throw a "karate style" reverse punch or a chop? It is the angle, velocity, and intent of the attack that are important. Hockey fights are more "realistic" than any MA fight I've ever seen.


----------



## Archangel M

Kumbajah said:


> Realistic in what context? I think this criticism could be leveled at any asian martial - where outside a MA context have you ever seen someone throw a "karate style" reverse punch or a chop? It is the angle, velocity, and intent of the attack that are important. Hockey fights are more "realistic" than any MA fight I've ever seen.



True. But I still think Aikidos attacks (at least in most of the demos I have observed) are more stylistic than most.


----------



## theletch1

Archangel M said:


> True. But I still think Aikidos attacks (at least in most of the demos I have observed) are more stylistic than most.


Here's a vid of the #2 guy in my style from 1990.  Roundhouses, uppercuts, backhands, pushes.  There is a good bit of atemi in there and even a good high kick somewhere toward the end.  It's still a demo so many of the style bashers are gonna find something to ***** about but it's a good representation of what my style of aikido is like.  Gentle?  Could be but Sensei MacEwen doesn't care to make it that way. 

[yt]N1B8sogcOyY&feature=related[/yt]


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## mook jong man

Nice video.
I can see some moves that are similar to what is found in Wing Chun at the higher levels . Not the joint locking , but I saw a deflection there against the round house that looks similar to what we call a Dai sau , and some of the moves where they off balance the attacker by controlling the neck look like applications off the wooden dummy.


----------



## K-man

theletch1 said:


> Here's a vid of the #2 guy in my style from 1990. Roundhouses, uppercuts, backhands, pushes. There is a good bit of atemi in there and even a good high kick somewhere toward the end. It's still a demo so many of the style bashers are gonna find something to ***** about but it's a good representation of what my style of aikido is like. Gentle? Could be but Sensei MacEwen doesn't care to make it that way.


I like the video also. I think a lot of people never see atemi, knees or kicks being trained so miss a big part of aikido that is perhaps under emphasised in some, maybe most, schools. What I would like to see though is uke attacking with both hands rather that leaving one arm hanging. If the technique is applied correctly the second hand never arrives but it looks a bit weak in demonstrations to only use one hand. A pity there aren't more teachers like yours out there.


----------



## Chris Parker

Archangel M said:


> True. But I still think Aikidos attacks (at least in most of the demos I have observed) are more stylistic than most.


 
From what I understand, Ueshiba Sensei based the attacking rythms of Uke on sword cuts, most obviously a straight cut down (known as Shomen Giri, or Ten Chi Giri, or by about 5 or 6 other names that I have heard), and that is why the attacks are often a hand edge straight down with a step (to align the same hand and foot for a commited action). This action is obviously the primary one used to learn the basic movements and techniques, afterwards, of course, you apply the techniques and principles against a much wider range of attacks.

In terms of "realistic", and how you can find difficulties applying that to most Martial Arts, yep. Not really realistic at all. Won't work, don't try. Although...

You need to remember what the techniques are based on, and what they are designed to work against. Classical Aikido techniques against typical old-style Japanese attacks, and it'll work incrediably well. Against modern jabs, hooks, kicks etc. the techniques need to be modified, but the principles are timeless, and will be just as effective, powerful, and realistic provided they are trained as such. 

To balance that out, though, boxing nowadays is a very good way to get a lot of practical skills at hitting and being hit, but if we go back even to the time of Aikido's origin (early to mid-20t Century), the "fisticuffs" old-style of boxing was what worked. These days, if you adopt an "old school" boxing pose, you get laughed at. Try it. Honestly, try it! But if we look at what it was designed to combat, you realise that boxing in those days included the ideas of grappling, and a great deal of "dirty" tactics, and the high, extended guard of the old posture is designed to keep the opponent at a distance so they couldn't grab you. So, it is very realistic, if you keep in mind the context and principles.


----------



## morph4me

K-man said:


> I like the video also. I think a lot of people never see atemi, knees or kicks being trained so miss a big part of aikido that is perhaps under emphasised in some, maybe most, schools. What I would like to see though is uke attacking with both hands rather that leaving one arm hanging. If the technique is applied correctly the second hand never arrives but it looks a bit weak in demonstrations to only use one hand. A pity there aren't more teachers like yours out there.


 
You're right about leaving one arm hanging, we tend to leave one hand free so we can take those falls, the have a tendency to hurt if you're a little late with the slap. It's not necessarily correct, but it does save some wear and tear on our bodies :uhyeah:


----------



## Jenna

Chris Parker said:


> but you can also harmonize in such a way that increases the amount of damage done.


Hey Chris  I think you have cut to the core of this thread.  Aikido's circularity is often misinterpreted as some kind of cowardly evasion by those ignorant of the simple premises.  And but that circularity can be utilised for evasion, deflection and redirection or for out-and-out impulse increasers to move the opponent.  By a wildly digressing analogy, rocket scientists do not rely on the thrust of the engines to propel their satellite into distant space, they utilise the pull of other bodies to rotate and "slingshot".

Good points, good post, thank you 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## morph4me

Jenna said:


> Hey Chris  I think you have cut to the core of this thread. Aikido's circularity is often misinterpreted as some kind of cowardly evasion by those ignorant of the simple premises. And but that circularity can be utilised for evasion, deflection and redirection or for out-and-out impulse increasers to move the opponent. By a wildly digressing analogy, rocket scientists do not rely on the thrust of the engines to propel their satellite into distant space, they utilise the pull of other bodies to rotate and "slingshot".
> 
> Good points, good post, thank you
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
Yep, Aikido is a soft art, soft in application, not in results.


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## K-man

morph4me said:


> You're right about leaving one arm hanging, we tend to leave one hand free so we can take those falls, the have a tendency to hurt if you're a little late with the slap. It's not necessarily correct, but it does save some wear and tear on our bodies :uhyeah:


We attack with one hand but carry the other hand in a position to deflect a counter. I feel that this is more realistic and doesn't prevent us using the free arm to roll or breakfall. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for wear and tear ... gets worse past 60!


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## morph4me

K-man said:


> We attack with one hand but carry the other hand in a position to deflect a counter. I feel that this is more realistic and doesn't prevent us using the free arm to roll or breakfall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *As for wear and tear ... gets worse past 60! *


 
Oh good, something to look forward to  :lol:


----------



## charyuop

I think this thread is a very good one. It highlights the very first opinions of people who trained in the art for few months/1 year. Where they think they know the art while they barely get a little taste of it.
There are certain things that are kinda misleading in my opinion and that reading around internet are made even more misleading.

I too started Aikido thinking a nice kind art, wait for the attack and the counter attack. Truth is another tho. Using the opponent energy doesn't mean wait for 10 punches to reach you then magically avoid them. Don't wait for 3 people to attack you in turn so that you can use their energy against them. A nice circular motion, doesn't have to be that huge dance-step which makes you hakama fly high. You don't catch any opponent wrist or finger...if you do good, but you don't even want to think about doing it (unless you have superman speed). Being soft doesn't mean being limp, it doesn't mean giving up to your opponent, but it can (and many times does) mean stand your own ground and have the opponent to give up his/her own ground. Arm locks is not what Aikido is about, working on the opponent balance is more important than twisting a wrist and who thinks in a real fight balance is not something to aim at is wrong...

I could go on for years and the more I train the more I could add to that list, even because I am still realizing now how many misleading thoughts about Aikido I had in the past and I am sure I still have.


----------



## repz

Never took Aikido, so I have no bias or even an opinion on it. Though I do take a Japanese jujitsu style.

Heres a vid of someone perform aikido in a sparring-like manner. Yes, it looks sloppy, but he does do some good takedowns, especially considering he can get a hold of the hand for a wrist lock or finger lock.






I wouldnt be suprised if hes gotten better now, since this appears to have been a trial period to test his training.


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## theletch1

Hey, Repz.  Good video.  Of course it looks sloppy... it's aikido in real time action against unchoreographed attacks.   Aikido isn't going to look super flowing and perfect outside of the dojo.  It doesn't have to, it just needs to be effective.  I applaud the guys in the video for taking their training outside of the too often pre-arranged attacks so that it all flows gently and easily.


----------



## repz

theletch1 said:


> Hey, Repz.  Good video.  Of course it looks sloppy... it's aikido in real time action against unchoreographed attacks.   Aikido isn't going to look super flowing and perfect outside of the dojo.  It doesn't have to, it just needs to be effective.  I applaud the guys in the video for taking their training outside of the too often pre-arranged attacks so that it all flows gently and easily.



I know, I take japanese jujitsu, and I free spar sometimes and it looks funky, but gets the job done. I just mentioned that in case of any criticisms.


----------



## repz

Heres of Aikido vs Tkd, he almost had a wrist lock on him but the glove stopped it. Aikido did good though.

Not really posting this to add to vs war battles, just showing that in the hands of someone capable they can use it in a fight. Since this post seems to have fallen into a *Aikido not being effective* post.


----------



## K-man

I think that aikido without atemi is a bit like a pie without sauce!


----------



## dbell

I have been studying Aikido for a bit over 38 years now, as well as Kendo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido (all for 25-38 years), and Judo for a bit over 40 years.  I have gotten into about 5 "fights" over the past 35 years, and each time I fall back to Aikido each time.  It has been VERY effective in "real life" fights.  And the fights ended very quickly.  (And the first few fights I couldn't get out of and had to fight were before I got to Black Belt level of training...)


----------



## seasoned

Under estimating is the first step in finding ourselves in situations that could be harmful to our health. No one really knows until the crap hits the fan, and at that point in time anything is better then nothing. If you think there are no strikes in Aikido, you are dreaming.


----------



## Jenna

K-man said:


> I think that aikido without atemi is a bit like a pie without sauce!


Mmmmmm.... PIE


----------



## Yari

K-man said:


> I think that aikido without atemi is a bit like a pie without sauce!


 
;-)

And overdoing the atmei is overdoing the sauce.....


----------



## NW_Tengu

dbell said:


> I have been studying Aikido for a bit over 38 years now, as well as Kendo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido (all for 25-38 years), and Judo for a bit over 40 years. I have gotten into about 5 "fights" over the past 35 years, and each time I fall back to Aikido each time. It has been VERY effective in "real life" fights. And the fights ended very quickly. (And the first few fights I couldn't get out of and had to fight were before I got to Black Belt level of training...)


 

Mr Bell, I can understand the differentation between some of your arts, but out of curiosity, in your opinion, what makes what you fall back on "Aikido" vs. "Hapkido"?


----------



## dbell

NW_Tengu said:


> Mr Bell, I can understand the differentation between some of your arts, but out of curiosity, in your opinion, what makes what you fall back on "Aikido" vs. "Hapkido"?



Most of the fights came before I studied Hapkido.  But that said, Hapkido and Aikido, minus the kicks and stances are pretty close in form.


----------



## Blade96

chav buster said:


> the fact is you cant catch punches or what not ect its a beautiful art but martial its not.



If a Shotokan-ka may be so bold and stick her head in an aikido thread in an aikido forum for a minute 

Old thread but I had to reply cause its funny....

I don't do aikido but I talked to an aikido sensei I 'met' on another forum and I sometimes observe the aikido club training in their dojo where i live in Newfoundland. so i know some about aikido. This is the funniest post I have read in a while. Aikido doesn't work because you 'can't catch punches?' Wut..... I am not even sure you know much at all about Aikido. Because if you did, you'd know the purpose and aim of aikido is that you don't stop the attacker like we karate-kas do....he punch and we block, not often redirect, though there is some of that. Instead, with aikido, you absorb the energy of the attacker, use his lifeforce against him, and redirect the attack. That is why Aikido-kas fall down a lot =] well partially. lol.


----------



## theletch1

Blade, you're welcome to poke your head into the aikido forum any time you've something to add.  You are completely correct that there is no punch "catching" in aikido.  I'd go so far to say that there is no punch catching in any art, rather punch blocking.  No one I've ever met is fast enough to actually catch a punch in the true sense.  You are also correct in pointing out that we redirect the energy of the punch in such a way as to cause the attacker to seem to throw himself rather than us forcing him to fall.  We DO fall down a lot.  Most of the time that's from the defensive technique of our fellow aikido-ka... sometimes it's from the Guinness.


----------



## Z-Man

This is an interesting aikido video link.


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## Jenna

Z-Man said:


> This is an interesting aikido video link.


Tasty


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## Blade96

theletch1 said:


> Blade, you're welcome to poke your head into the aikido forum any time you've something to add.  You are completely correct that there is no punch "catching" in aikido.  I'd go so far to say that there is no punch catching in any art, rather punch blocking.  No one I've ever met is fast enough to actually catch a punch in the true sense.  You are also correct in pointing out that we redirect the energy of the punch in such a way as to cause the attacker to seem to throw himself rather than us forcing him to fall.  We DO fall down a lot.  Most of the time that's from the defensive technique of our fellow aikido-ka... sometimes it's from the Guinness.



Thanks

btw who actually catches a punch literally?


----------



## theletch1

Blade96 said:


> Thanks
> 
> btw who actually catches a punch literally?


 Most of the guys that claim they can teach you to DEVASTATE AND DESTROY ANY OPPONENT in one 60 minute cd and usually have LT. or Capt or Count in front of their names (usually a single letter for secrecy don't you know) will also claim they can catch a punch in mid-air.


----------



## Blade96

theletch1 said:


> Most of the guys that claim they can teach you to DEVASTATE AND DESTROY ANY OPPONENT in one 60 minute cd and usually have LT. or Capt or Count in front of their names (usually a single letter for secrecy don't you know) will also claim they can catch a punch in mid-air.



That's when i'll come in and respectfully say, about those guys and their 60 mins and cd's,

Horseradish. :angel:


----------



## Cryozombie

Z-Man said:


> This is an interesting aikido video link.



At 0:52 he gets attacked by NINJAS!


----------



## Hawke

Nice clip.


----------



## Wildcarde

Hi all. I just started training aikido here in L.A...I'm one of those guys who, in the past, trained a couple months with this style, a couple of THAT style, and so on. From what I've seen at this early point, aikido is quite effective. I honestly think people who are always dissing other people's styles as ineffective have been watching too many martial arts movies, and have rarely, if ever, been in a real fight. they think if you're not flying through the air, or waving chucks around like bruce lee, then it's no good. my personal experience is, a real fight lasts a minute or 2 and it's over. get in, harmonize with opponents energy, basically get him to defeat himself. get out. sounds like practical aikido to me.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Honestly I bet most fights last even less time than that. especially if you know what you are doing.

It always comes down to what you are training for and how committed you are to making it work right. If you train unrealistically then your skill is for crap in an actual fight, but you can take anything and make it work if you apply it correctly and train properly.


----------



## Mike Hamer

Just wanted to say a few things.
1. That video was awesome
2. Please dont come on the aikido forum saying it doesnt work LOL
3. I miss aikido, it was my first art, and maybe I will get back into it when I move to Texas.


----------



## chinto

chav buster said:


> im sure it does work great in the dojo but wrist and standing arm locks are hard enough to apply with  strikes and to set them up and are impossible to do so in real life without.
> 
> i dont want to offend and if you do it for fun or what ever fine but dont confuse it a practical fightin art.




Oh I think you will find like any art, it works.  a good practitioner can show you that it does.


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## rogersouthbay

*Aikido training of UNDSS 
(United Nations Department of Safety and  Security) personnel at the regional headquarters for the UN in South  America - ECLAC / CEPAL - in Santiago, Chile.*

These UN personnel are absolutely wasting their time when they really should be training either Karate, MMA fighting or Muay Thai so that they can "practically" defend against guns and knifes.


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## Jenna

rogersouthbay said:


> *Aikido training of UNDSS
> (United Nations Department of Safety and  Security) personnel at the regional headquarters for the UN in South  America - ECLAC / CEPAL - in Santiago, Chile.*
> 
> These UN personnel are absolutely wasting their time when they really should be training either Karate, MMA fighting or Muay Thai so that they can "practically" defend against guns and knifes.


Why do you think Karate, MMA or MT would be better options for UN personnel?


----------



## K-man

rogersouthbay said:


> *Aikido training of UNDSS *
> *(United Nations Department of Safety and Security) personnel at the regional headquarters for the UN in South America - ECLAC / CEPAL - in Santiago, Chile.*
> 
> These UN personnel are absolutely wasting their time when they really should be training either Karate, MMA fighting or Muay Thai so that they can "practically" defend against guns and knifes.


Against guns and knives any style of martial art is going to struggle. Chances are if you engage you will be injured and you may die. If I could pick a couple of styles to defend against this type of attack I would not be choosing MMA or Muay Thai as these are sports. Most MMA fighters have a good knowlege of grappling, most probably with BJJ. BJJ would be an option as would ju jutsu. I wouldn't feel comfortable with karate either, as you normally see it practised. Many karate instructors I know teach additional skills to combat knives and other weapons. Personally, I have included aikido in my instruction for SD as it works beautifully in combination with karate.

I consider Aikido to be most appropriate as a practical defence assuming you have learnt from a knowledgeable instructor. 

Perhaps *chinto* said it best: _"Oh I think you will find like any art, it works. A good practitioner can show you that it does." _

Interesting to see that you spent three years training Aikido yet obviously you feel that it is ineffective. :asian:


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## rogersouthbay

Jenna said:


> Why do you think Karate, MMA or MT would be better options for UN personnel?



according to the thread owner, they are.:ultracool


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## rogersouthbay

K-man said:


> Interesting to see that you spent three years training Aikido yet obviously you feel that it is ineffective. :asian:



Sorry for creating confusion here.  I only wanted to see what the thread owner has to say about UN Security personnel training Aikido.  Hopefully, he realizes the efficiency and practicality of Aikido after watching the clip.

I am temporarily pausing my Aikido training and just started Wing Chun a month ago.  I feel more and more fascinated by many important fundamentals shared by these two arts, especially the concept of developing a proper body structure and using that body structure as a base to confront incoming force.


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## Jenna

rogersouthbay said:


> Sorry for creating confusion here.  I only wanted to see what the thread owner has to say about UN Security personnel training Aikido.  Hopefully, he realizes the efficiency and practicality of Aikido after watching the clip.
> 
> I am temporarily pausing my Aikido training and just started Wing Chun a month ago.  I feel more and more fascinated by many important fundamentals shared by these two arts, especially the concept of developing a proper body structure and using that body structure as a base to confront incoming force.


I see  I think the thread is slightly aged and the original poster has potentially disappeared to some other part of the internet by now though I may be proven otherwise and they may awaken from their slumber, crank open their sarcophagus door and regale us all with interesting information about martial arts n stuff .  

Yes, what you posted, it is interesting to know that Aikido is deployed in this kind of security role. I had no idea. Neither do I have an idea the extent to which hand-to-hand combat is trained in military and auxiliary forces and but to me, were an unarmed fighting system utilised at all, Aikido is as good as any and were direct engagement not sought and but rather deflation of a situation, then I would say it is arguably better than other arts and so thank you for posting this. 

I am interested to know what is your own view on the subject?  And if it is ok to ask, why you are pausing Aikido while you train WC?  Do you prefer the one over the other?


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## seasoned

I made friends with a guy that trained in Aikido, who in turn was interested in Okinawan GoJu kata. Our talks sparked an interest in me and we would meet once a week for over a year. I taught him kata, while he extracted what he perceived to be techniques, he in turn trained with in his art. This was a very rewarding time for both of us as we learned much, as we trained the arts together. Eye opener indeed...........


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## rogersouthbay

Jenna said:


> I am interested to know what is your own view on the subject?  And if it is ok to ask, why you are pausing Aikido while you train WC?  Do you prefer the one over the other?



Great question, Jenna.  In fact, i have asked myself the same, and the biggest reason for me was "curriculum" in Aikido training, where you always train with a partner, and it seems to me that is the only way to really grow.  Yes, training with all types of partners is fantastic and i enjoyed a lot, and this makes Aikido probably the most practical art of all, teaching how to properly measure and control the distance between your opponent and yourself.  Coping with fighting distance alone can yield a great advantage in real situation, i think.  

But, on the other hand, i think, Aikido does not have much resources for training by oneself.  Yes, Aikido has Ikkyo-undo or rowing excercise as a solo training, but to me, it wasn't really much help.  Now with Wing Chun, training system is equally weighed for both solo and partner drills.  I am just getting started, and I really don't know about how exactly the solo forms will help me along the way.  Many WC Grand masters say Siu Lim Tao alone, can teach you all the essences of Wing Chun.  Similar case with my very limited Tai Chi experience... i must confess i grasped the Aikido concept of keeping one-point from Tai-Chi solo forms.

Don't get me wrong, i still love Aikido, and someday i hope i can resume my training.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Jenna, and have a great weekend!!


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## Jenna

seasoned said:


> I made friends with a guy that trained in Aikido, who in turn was interested in Okinawan GoJu kata. Our talks sparked an interest in me and we would meet once a week for over a year. I taught him kata, while he extracted what he perceived to be techniques, he in turn trained with in his art. This was a very rewarding time for both of us as we learned much, as we trained the arts together. Eye opener indeed...........


I think there is a lot to be learned from practitioners of dissimilar arts to our own.  I wonder sometimes why there is so much antipathy even here on forums like this when there is so much mutually useful knowledge to be had.  I understand what some refer to as dilution of a supposedly pure art (as if there were such a thing) and but when it comes to defending oneself, the more knowledge the better.  And so then do you recall any of those Aikido moves at all my friend?  

Hopefully your pal never coerced you into growing a ponytail or a grand beard before he taught you Aikido?  For certain brands of Aikido it is practically written in the syllabus and I should prefer you without either! 




rogersouthbay said:


> Great question, Jenna. In fact, i have asked myself the same, and the biggest reason for me was "curriculum" in Aikido training, where you always train with a partner, and it seems to me that is the only way to really grow. Yes, training with all types of partners is fantastic and i enjoyed a lot, and this makes Aikido probably the most practical art of all, teaching how to properly measure and control the distance between your opponent and yourself. Coping with fighting distance alone can yield a great advantage in real situation, i think.
> 
> But, on the other hand, i think, Aikido does not have much resources for training by oneself. Yes, Aikido has Ikkyo-undo or rowing excercise as a solo training, but to me, it wasn't really much help. Now with Wing Chun, training system is equally weighed for both solo and partner drills. I am just getting started, and I really don't know about how exactly the solo forms will help me along the way. Many WC Grand masters say Siu Lim Tao alone, can teach you all the essences of Wing Chun. Similar case with my very limited Tai Chi experience... i must confess i grasped the Aikido concept of keeping one-point from Tai-Chi solo forms.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, i still love Aikido, and someday i hope i can resume my training.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Jenna, and have a great weekend!!


Plainly with any martial art, training with others is essential, though it is not always practical every day I understand what you are saying. I am somewhat ignorant of WC (besides a poor form bong sau which I was taught and countless Ip Man and Ip Man II viewings lol) and but is the weighting of solo training and partner training really 50/50?  And you spar also like randori or free-fighting?  

You are correct though, Aikido is nigh impossible to learn alone.  The feel for a technique cannot be acquired any other way than by a hand on.  There are however bo and jo forms which are possibly a little further along the line.  I recall one of my early senseis used to practice his atemi outside when his lady wife was having one of her days and he would strike against not a wooden dummy and but a wooden garage door which he almost had off its hinges.  Yes though, I think it is a common view often repeated that Aikido is a _soft _art.  Of course there are many who believe the UN are a correspondingly _soft _organisation. Personally I think both viewpoints, while having something of the truth in them are far from full descriptions.

Aikido and WC though is a combination that might take a deal of time to meld together properly if you were doing them simultaneously so I understand that you are taking a hiatus from the one to train the other.  Though I have always thought that being fluent in more than one art would surely have its benefits.  Me I am pure Aikido, not burly enough to be hitting the mook jong  

And but best of luck with your training in whatever direction it takes! Bon week-end to you also


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## mook jong man

Jenna said:


> I think there is a lot to be learned from practitioners of dissimilar arts to our own.  I wonder sometimes why there is so much antipathy even here on forums like this when there is so much mutually useful knowledge to be had.  I understand what some refer to as dilution of a supposedly pure art (as if there were such a thing) and but when it comes to defending oneself, the more knowledge the better.  And so then do you recall any of those Aikido moves at all my friend?
> 
> Hopefully your pal never coerced you into growing a ponytail or a grand beard before he taught you Aikido?  For certain brands of Aikido it is practically written in the syllabus and I should prefer you without either!
> 
> 
> 
> Plainly with any martial art, training with others is essential, though it is not always practical every day I understand what you are saying. I am somewhat ignorant of WC (besides a poor form bong sau which I was taught and countless Ip Man and Ip Man II viewings lol) and but is the weighting of solo training and partner training really 50/50?  And you spar also like randori or free-fighting?
> 
> You are correct though, Aikido is nigh impossible to learn alone.  The feel for a technique cannot be acquired any other way than by a hand on.  There are however bo and jo forms which are possibly a little further along the line.  I recall one of my early senseis used to practice his atemi outside when his lady wife was having one of her days and he would strike against not a wooden dummy and but a wooden garage door which he almost had off its hinges.  Yes though, I think it is a common view often repeated that Aikido is a _soft _art.  Of course there are many who believe the UN are a correspondingly _soft _organisation. Personally I think both viewpoints, while having something of the truth in them are far from full descriptions.
> 
> Aikido and WC though is a combination that might take a deal of time to meld together properly if you were doing them simultaneously so I understand that you are taking a hiatus from the one to train the other.  Though I have always thought that being fluent in more than one art would surely have its benefits.  Me I am pure Aikido, not burly enough to be hitting the mook jong
> 
> And but best of luck with your training in whatever direction it takes! Bon week-end to you also



I don't believe they can be melded together to be perfectly honest , Wing Chun techniques work because of the Wing Chun stance.
Without the proper stance to energise and stabilise the movements , the force will have to be generated by brute strength which is limited by how much muscle the practitioner has .
One of the principles of Wing Chun is minimum use of brute strength.
Also incoming force will not be able to be absorbed properly and tranferred down through the stance and into the ground.

In regards to the training the Sil lum Tao form can be thought of as the chassis of a car , it provides the structure for the techniques.

The next form Chum Kiu is like putting an engine in the car , it teaches the practitioner to move the body as one unit to generate striking power and be able to redirect heavy force , this is achieved through locking upper and lower body together at the waist and pivoting or careful coordination of stepping with arm movements.

It also introduces the concept of multiple vectors of force applied at once , an opponent may be able to resist one force vector , but resisting two becomes a very difficult proposition.

The third empty hand form is like putting a turbo charger onto our car engine this form is performed a lot faster than the previous two forms and in a lot of ways abandons the rules and concepts established in the earlier two forms.
The arms cross over the centreline and the upper body initiates the pivoting movements rather than having the body unified at the waist like in the previous form.

Some people think of it as the emergency form used for when there are multiple opponents or when one of your arms is otherwise incapacitated.

These forms are practiced endlessly especially the first one , later on the wooden dummy is introduced in order for the student to hone correct positioning , transferring their body weight into the dummy correctly and generally applying all the concepts learned in the earlier forms , its not about smashing the crap out of the arms like you see in a lot of movies.

The wall bag is another piece of equipment used for solo practice , basically a single or three section square of canvas typically filled with rice , sand , ball bearings , grain etc and this is mounted on the wall.

This can be used to train short range striking power , has a conditioning effect on the knuckles but mainly teaches the student to focus and relax and learn to deal with the recoil from their strike thus strengthening their stance.

But if a partner is available then the student will engage in Chi Sau where the students arms are in contact at the wrists executing the structures of Tan sau , Fook sau and Bong sau.
This exercise further develops the stance , develops hand speed , forward force in the arms , teaches the arms to act independently , but most of all it develops sensitivity .

Chi sau can be likened to having a large spinning ball held out in front of you , as the opponent makes contact with this spinning sphere his force is redirected off to the side .
The structures of Tan sau ,Fook sau and Bong sau can be used to redirect this force in any direction depending on where the force is coming from and where it wants to go.

From the gentle exercise of Chi sau you can start Chi sau sparring , this where attacks are random and things can become quite violent with lightning fast hand strikes flying and lots of hand trapping taking place.

The students are probing for a weakness in the shield provided by the shapes used in Chi sau , looking for a gap to strike through , trying to take advantage of any force that is not directy targeted at their centreline.

Training is also done out of contact range and in our lineage is called random arms and legs where the student must deal with any random attack be it arm , leg or grapple based attacks.


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## Jenna

Thank you my friend, that is an interesting post!

I think you are correct yes.  Aikido and WC do appear on the surface at least to be quite disparate arts.  Having said that though I am pleasantly surprised that from your explanation there do seem to be a number of similarities if you can bear with me and understand that I know nothing of Wing Chun and but have picked up some things from your clear description.



mook jong man said:


> One of the principles of Wing Chun is minimum use of brute strength.


Yes I like that.  This principle is true also of Aikido, as I believe it is of some other arts.



mook jong man said:


> Also incoming force will not be able to be absorbed properly and tranferred down through the stance and into the ground.


I have to say, I find this really interesting.  Wing Chun's transferrance of force is different to Aikido.  So with WC you are saying that incoming force is redirected through your grounded stance and downward into the earth, yes?  That is cool.  Aikido will rotate the force around the aikidoka sending it away at a tangent.



mook jong man said:


> In regards to the training the Sil lum Tao form can be thought of as the chassis of a car , it provides the structure for the techniques.


I do not believe Aikido has the same core technical structure of WC as a framework for subsequent techniques.  However in Aikido (and this is just me thinking) I might suggest that an equivalent to WC's fundamental form would be correct stance and combative distance relative to uke.  In training, while ki is at Aikido's core (I will mention that later) I would set the former stance and positioning as fundamental.  I would try to encourage a sound understanding of this principle in beginners as it is imperative for all subsequent techniques to hold any effectiveness.  This is true of larger throwing techniques and smaller joint manipulating techniques.  It is not the same idea as Sil lum Tao in WC and but I am just trying to contrive similarities 



mook jong man said:


> The next form Chum Kiu is like putting an engine in the car , it teaches the practitioner to move the body as one unit to generate striking power and be able to redirect heavy force , this is achieved through locking upper and lower body together at the waist and pivoting or careful coordination of stepping with arm movements.
> 
> It also introduces the concept of multiple vectors of force applied at once , an opponent may be able to resist one force vector , but resisting two becomes a very difficult proposition.


This is also very interesting thank you.  This second WC form which is borne out of the first I might equate to the Aikido application of balance.  In Aikido it is key to understand not only one's own shifting balance through the technique and combinations and but also that of uke.  Once we are trained to the level that uke's tip point / break point can be accurately predicted, it is possible to move him and place him wherever he is desired.  I am intrigued to know that the concept of multiple vectors is also common to both arts.  In Aikido, movements are seldom along a single vector and but utilise instead spirals, rotations and reverses and returns in large and small circles. I find that interesting too.



mook jong man said:


> The third empty hand form is like putting a turbo charger onto our car engine this form is performed a lot faster than the previous two forms and in a lot of ways abandons the rules and concepts established in the earlier two forms.
> The arms cross over the centreline and the upper body initiates the pivoting movements rather than having the body unified at the waist like in the previous form.
> 
> Some people think of it as the emergency form used for when there are multiple opponents or when one of your arms is otherwise incapacitated.


I think the third form in WC or the "turbo" as you have descriptively put it, I would equate in Aikido to the deployment of ki (which as you know is common to many arts not just Aikido). The use of ki in Aikido is to take what I call a "flat" technique and, using the former two areas (stance and balance) together with available incoming inertia and any developed centripetal force, to turbocharge the technique and thus uke's motion.  This, when practiced correctly has the power to move an opponent with great vigour.

I think the wall bags and the wooden dummy are where our techniques diverge.  While atemi is central to Aikido in all its variants, it is more often used as an entry to a technique rather than a technique per se.  Subsequently many schools will not expend much effort in its teaching.  I do though.  And but nowhere near to the extent it is trained in Wing Chun.  I have seen the size of some WC practitioners' knuckles! Wow.

I think the solo training is another aspect of the two arts which are uncommon.  I like the idea of training with bags and the dummy and but in Aikido this is impractical.

Still, I am pleased that though the two arts Wing Chun and Aikido are far from cousins, there are some commonalities (at least as I see it). I hope you are not offended by this or anything.  I am just happy to spot little parallels and thank you for your post


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## Z-Man

Ive trained a lot of Aikido and a little Wing Chun. This is just my take on the two systems: Both systems have the block and strike at the same time concept. Both systems run around their opponents energy but through different techniques. The aikido player may evade/block and strike at the same time but then finalize the opponent with a throw or joint lock/pin. On the most part a Wing Chun player may evade/block and strike at the same time but then will follow up with more strikes to finish off there opponent. Wing Chun sometimes employs Chin Na techniques (grappling joint locks). Ive seen Wing Chun Sifu use joint locks that are very similar Aikido techniques. For example Ive seen variations of kotegaeshi, ikkyo, nikkyo, and jiju-nage performed by Wing Chun Sifu. Although it seems these Chin Na moves in Wing Chun are not primary moves, they prefer to strike the center line to end the fight fast. In Aikido these joint locks are really primary moves that are practiced daily.

Wing Chun has a handful of empty handed and weapons forms which are great for solo practice. It gives you a solid chuck of info to work on in solo practice. Many Aikido schools have great weapons forms, but the empty handed techniques really dont have forms. After training long enough in Aikido you could string individual techniques together in solo practice to make a free flowing form.

Wing Chun players usually try to capture the center line, so strikes can be delivered. Aikido players usually get off the center line to avoid strikes and break their opponents balance so a throw or joint lock van be employed. In an Aikido class since there are a lot of throws being done, the Aikido players learns how to roll and fall without hurting themselves.

Wing Chun has a delivery system called Chi Sau or Sticky Hands practice. This Chi Sau practice with your partner teaches the Wing Chun player sensitivity without sight, but by touch, proper timing of technique and a host of other benefits. Aikido (except for Tomiki Aikido) does not have competitions, but on the other hand at a certain level Aikido players will not just comply with their partners moves if they are grossly incorrect. Some may say Aikido does not have a delivery system, but in my opinion years of hard training in Aikido makes up for this. Some say Aikido takes longer to get proficient at. This may be so since there is lack of a delivery system. It has been said by an Aikido master that aikido is too dangerous for competitions. If you remove the dangerous techniques from Aikido, it may just become similar to Karate and Judo. Aikido is successfully used by law enforcement around the world, so it is very effective.

To sum it up, Wing Chun and Aikido have some slight similarities, but they are very different in many ways. Im not saying what system is better, they are just different.


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## Jenna

Z-Man said:


> To sum it up, Wing Chun and Aikido have some slight similarities, but they are very different in many ways. I&#8217;m not saying what system is better, they are just different


Yes, I am absolutely in agreement with this.  I would say the two arts have slight similarities and but many parallels.  As to which art is best, the art that is best is the art that is best for any particular person 



Z-Man said:


> Wing Chun has a handful of empty handed and weapons forms which are great for solo practice. It gives you a solid chuck of info to work on in solo practice. Many Aikido schools have great weapons forms, but the empty handed techniques really don&#8217;t have forms. After training long enough in Aikido you could string individual techniques together in solo practice to make a free flowing form.


I would not want to argue the semantics as I know exactly how you mean it here and I would agree, in Aikido there do not exist the same kinds of predetermined individual kata as seen in many other arts.  While there are fixed forms to be practiced with someone else, the solo practice in Aikido is as you say limited to the later phases of training with for example the long or short staff.  Wing Chun definitely has the advantage when it comes to being able to practice solo 



Z-Man said:


> Wing Chun has a delivery system called Chi Sau or Sticky Hands practice. This Chi Sau practice with your partner teaches the Wing Chun player sensitivity without sight, but by touch, proper timing of technique and a host of other benefits. Aikido (except for Tomiki Aikido) does not have competitions, but on the other hand at a certain level Aikido players will not just comply with their partners moves if they are grossly incorrect.


Yes, I am familiar with sticky hands drills.  And again it is nice to be able to draw parallels from two so apparently disparate arts as Wing Chun and Aikido.  While in Aikido that same movement sensitivity is not explicitly taught, I have trained my aikidoka using a similar method that I stole from the Tai Chi push hands.  Obviously WC sticky hands is much more opening-seeking and strike based and but you are still seeking sensitivity and ultimately the ability to predict the opponent and exploit that.  I think that degree of motion detection is not common to many arts.  I am pleased you mentioned that, thank you!


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