# Joo Bang Lee



## IcemanSK

I read some things in threads that bring into question some of the things that he's said &/or done. I'd heard the name, but really didn't know who he was until I went on wikipedia.

What were the claims that bothered people? His instructor? The having someone break a brick over his forehead? I don't mean to be sarcastic. I don't have a thought about him one way or another. I did think that having someone break a brick over your forehead was incredibly strange.

Can someone enlighten me, please?


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## shesulsa

I glanced at Wikipedia ... could you point to something more specific???  And are you talking about breaking a brick over his own head or someone else's??


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## IcemanSK

shesulsa said:


> I glanced at Wikipedia ... could you point to something more specific??? And are you talking about breaking a brick over his own head or someone else's??


 
In a few threads in the TKD area, I'd seen references to his history as being questioned. In the one video from 1980 from youtube, someone broke a brick over Dr. Lee's forehead while he was in a mediative state.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Nobody questions his skills just* business practices* and the *history of Hwa Rang Do*.  There is no doubt that he has skill though.  Personally to me as I am not involved and I just do not care.  If he was in the area and teaching I would check him out.


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## terryl965

I am with Brian here if he was in my aerea I would have to go see what he knows. I have no doubt about his skills either.


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## shesulsa

Heh.

There's no doubt as to his skill - never was.  I don't know why anyone would be upset about someone breaking a brick over his head - it's *his head* after all.  Probably because it's not often done and is likely seen as a trick.  Having seen videos of what Lee could do to control his body, I would not want to argue the point.

The *real* history behind HRD has been the subject of contention for many, even his very own students, a couple of which you can read on this board.  Run a search, you'll find it.  I always point people to hwarangdo.com, hwarang.net, hwarang.org and dsystem.com, trying to point to both sides in the interest of fairness.  There still seems to be the argument as to whether or not Lee Joo Bang and Su In-Hyuk trained together and/or with Choi Yong Sul or Kim Moo Hong.    

As I've said before, Joo Bang Lee brought together a great system and I just cannot get excited about bashing him or the art; I won't do it.

I hear Tae Joon (Henry) Lee is the one doing most of the teaching now and I truly have no idea if Lee Joo Bang is teaching at all or demonstrating any more.

There was a big uproar in the HRD family which sent some of the black belts off.  What exactly happened I can't say because I wasn't there and it truly is none of my business.  No one wants those details hashed out publicly, I think, but as I said - if you read all the sites I reference above in depth you can form your very own conclusions.


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## iron_ox

shesulsa said:


> There still seems to be the argument as to whether or not Lee Joo Bang and Su In-Hyuk trained together and/or with Choi Yong Sul or Kim Moo Hong.



Hello,

I say this with all due respect to both Lee and Suh, but neither trained with Choi Dojunim in Tague.  Both men have documented training under Kim, Moo Woong.  In addition, Lee Joo Bang's claim of an 8th Dan from Choi Dojunim proves he was never graded by him...Choi Dojunim only graded men from Tague to 8th Dan - the highest grade he ever awarded to anyone who had left the city was a 7th dan, to those who never lived there, 6th Dan.

Again, no comment on skill, but the claims to grades are suspect at best.


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## IcemanSK

I misread some posts as a broad brush against Lee. I was completely ignorant about him & his HRD school. I asked because of the seeming negative thoughts. After reading it again, I saw it as a issue of the way he saw history. 

As far as him having a brick broken over his head in the video: I don't think to highly of folks that want to take their heads & smash bricks with them. I REALLY cannot understand why someone would allow another to head them in the head with a brick. I don't get that one.


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## tellner

To put it bluntly, the "controversy" is about him lying and lying poorly.

First there were the claims that he learned at a mysterious monastery that mysteriously disappeared. Then there were the claims that he never studied Kuk Sul Won but got everything from these afore-mentioned mysterious monks. Then there were the claims that Hwa Rang Do was two thousand years old and that it was the martial art of the mysterious Hwa Rang Super Warriors.

We already know that he and his brother studied with and broke off from KSW. 

The monastery and monks disappeared like dry ice in a white-hot forge. The Hwa Rang, well, I know Shesulsa will down-rep me for this and probably give me a violation for "disrespect" or some such, but there's precious little evidence that they ever existed. There's even less that they were a warrior caste rather than, say, a Boy Scout or Young Pioneers equivalent and the thin end of nothing whittled down to a point that their martial arts and specific terminology came down to us unaltered when no other records of their existence have come to light except for a few old ambiguous steles and suchlike. The fact that the supposedly unaltered martial arts of ancient Korean warriors include TKD kicking but no use of the lance or the mounted bow - the foremost weapons of the age - just pegs the BS meter.

Then there was the whole Michael Echanis debacle. Sometime after Echanis' death the Lee brothers admitted that he never really studied with them. They had given him titles in return for publicity and the SOF/mercenary coolth factor. Then they backpedaled. Then they copped to it again. 

The Lee martial arts are good stuff. And JBL definitely has skills. But when a person gets caught lying that clumsily that many times it detracts from his stature no matter what his other very real accomplishments.


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## mystic warrior

tellner said:


> We already know that he and his brother studied with and broke off from KSW.


I am not bashing you, but can you provide a link or a book from where you got this information.
I am just wondering.
thanks


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## The Last Legionary

tellner said:


> The Hwa Rang, well, I know Shesulsa will down-rep me for this and probably give me a violation for "disrespect" or some such,


 
Well, maybe you would deserve it. That whole "I'm above everyone" attitude I see you bricking all over the site with, Mr. Slimy. You could have said everything else in that post without the shot, but hey, you gots to take your shot at someone on the staff don't you Mr. Slimy? What's the problem? Got told to "play nice"? Had your wrist slapped and it hurt your ego? Awww. Poor Baby. Now I know you'll probably whine to those same mods and do the "he's picking on me mommy, makes the nad man stop it." thing. Well, so you don't go hungry, here's some $2 chedder so you have some cheese with that whine. I'd give you the $25 stuff, but you aint worthy, you arrogant self rightous pompous above us all prick.

Oh, and "Have A Nice Gun Carrying Kenpo Day!".

MWAHAHAHAHA!


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## shesulsa

tellner said:


> I know Shesulsa will down-rep me for this and probably give me a violation for "disrespect" or some such



Tellner if you have a problem with my professionalism - or if anyone else does - I urge you to contact Bob Hubbard, the owner of the site.  I assure you he and the rest of the Admin Team will investigate painstakingly and thoroughly and I will fully cooperate.

Looking at your past responses to my posts I have to question whether you actually *read* what I *post* or just respond, but I'll put this out there anyway:  When a staff member is conversing in a thread, they may not moderate that same thread.  Now, a warning posted in a thread is not the same - that is a moderator action.  So ... since I am part of this conversation I cannot issue you any kind of infraction you may or may not have earned.  Reputation is a priveledge of all users and I am, as you can see, a user just like you.

Again, feel free to complain to Bob Hubbard - that goes for everyone.

Regards,

G


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## The Last Legionary

shesulsa said:


> I am, as you can see, a user just like you.


 
You mean, you're an arrogant know it all too and just hide behind a flowery image, while Tellner displays his true self in his?  Wow.  Ninja lady!


Oh yeah, guess I should say this. "_Bad moderator. How dare you try to have an opinion of your own and express it. That is just "over moderating". Now shut up, get back in the back and keep feeding me free food_!" (That for the dim and slow of wit, was sarcasm.)


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## shesulsa

I, like others, will not bash the founder of the system my teacher trained in.  

UNlike others, I will not bash the founders or questionable histories of their arts as well.

Part of that "polite and respectful" and whole "goose sauce" thing.


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## tellner

No, LL, I'm not not "above everybody". But I have developed a real allergy to fraud and hokum. The martial arts in general, and the Korean and Southeast Asian martial arts in particular - yes, I include what I do - are infamous for deception, BS and out and out dishonesty.  It's hard enough to learn things that are true. When you have to spend years separating honest mistakes from truth from self-congratulatory lies it's a lot harder and detracts from all martial arts. If a teacher lies repeatedly it doesn't matter how many belts he has or how many good students he's turned out. He's a liar and can not be trusted. That goes for any teacher in any field.   I don't care if the lies are in a good cause like self-respect or nationalism. Once it's acceptable to lie about little things for a good cause it becomes easier to spit up bigger falsehoods for baser reasons. The inevitable result is corruption, debasement and the exploitation of honest students. My martial arts may suck hind teat, but I would rather give them up entirely than misrepresent them for personal gain or to make people more ignorant and unwitting parties to lies.   JBL is just one of many in this sad parade. The fact that he has serious skills and developed a really good martial art doesn't make it better.


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## terryl965

*One man deception is another man reality!!!!*​


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## arnisador

tellner said:


> First there were the claims that he learned at a mysterious monastery that mysteriously disappeared. Then there were the claims that he never studied Kuk Sul Won but got everything from these afore-mentioned mysterious monks. Then there were the claims that Hwa Rang Do was two thousand years old and that it was the martial art of the mysterious Hwa Rang Super Warriors.
> [...]
> The Hwa Rang[...]there's precious little evidence that they ever existed. There's even less that they were a warrior caste rather than, say, a Boy Scout or Young Pioneers equivalent
> [...]
> Then there was the whole Michael Echanis debacle.



That pretty much covers it--plus the obsessive copyright protection and other aspects of the PR campaign. I do give somewhat more credence to the existence of a Hwa Rang organization but agree that there's scant evidence of its martial aspects.

Looks like a good art, poorly presented.



mystic warrior said:


> can you provide a link or a book from where you got this information.



Reading Joo Bang Lee's own three-volume series is, regrettably, sufficient evidence. The material is internally contradictory as well as conlficting with established hiistory.


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## ancient warrior

any  black sash can train with dojonim  (joe bang lee)   any wednesday night at headquarters  in tustin ca. if u have the huevos .......


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## terryl965

ancient warrior said:


> any black sash can train with dojonim (joe bang lee) any wednesday night at headquarters in tustin ca. if u have the huevos .......


 
Ok thanks for the info.


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## Twin Fist

i have no knowledge of this, but i HAVE always wondered why Kook Sol Won and HRD was so alike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

ancient warrior said:


> any black sash can train with dojonim (joe bang lee) any wednesday night at headquarters in tustin ca. if u have the huevos .......


 
Ehhh, OK. Did you think about this in advance, or just post it to seem macho?


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## exile

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Bob Levine
-MT Moderator-


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## ancient warrior

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Ehhh, OK. Did you think about this in advance, or just post it to seem macho?[/quote its on headquarters web site sorry if i offended anyone.....


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

ancient warrior said:


> Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ehhh, OK. Did you think about this in advance, or just post it to seem macho?[/quote its on headquarters web site sorry if i offended anyone.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 parts seemed terse to me, and having some friends who were negatively impacted by the debacle of exodus from within the system, the number of unaddressed presuppositions seemed a little "hero worshipy" to me.
> 
> Consider:
> 
> #1.  "Anyone who is a black sash..." Mr. Lee disbanded many, demoting some top masters in his own system back to white belts. Some of those masters, or their students, prolly have plenty of huevos and the skill to back it up, but not having Mr. Lee's blessing as to their rank, would not fit the invitation. What it really says is that only those in good graces with dojonim, or their advanced students, are welcome to join him on the mat Wed. PM.
> 
> #2.  "black sash" means "in HWD". So, someone else who may be a perfectly fine martial specimen with plenty of huevos from another background is not welcome. See #1.
> 
> #3.  "has the huevos" implies that either the training is so grueling that nobody but a Lee-approved Black Sash could have a hope to keep up, or that he is such a hard-case that he would single out detractors for a challenge match. There are so many layers wrong with this, I don't even know where to start with unwravelling it. Kind of like the question, "Do you still beat your wife?" How do you answer it when you have never been married, or never beaten your wife, but "Yes" or "No" are the only available check boxes to answer?
> 
> Sorry if I came across tersely myself. The part about "Supreme World Great-Grand-Master"s history I have issues with is the cultish devotion he requires from many. And when I see items that reflect being wrapped up in that mentality, I have a tendency to react, rather than respond.
> 
> Be well,
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...


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## tkd1964

iron_ox said:


> Hello,
> 
> Choi Dojunim only graded men from Tague to 8th Dan - the highest grade he ever awarded to anyone who had left the city was a 7th dan, to those who never lived there, 6th Dan.
> 
> Again, no comment on skill, but the claims to grades are suspect at best.


 
I heard or read that Master Michael Wollmerhauser was promoted to 8th dan by GM Choi.


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## iron_ox

tkd1964 said:


> I heard or read that Master Michael Wollmerhauser was promoted to 8th dan by GM Choi.



Hello all,

No, he was given a certificate from Choi Dojunim. It was not an 8th Dan (I have actually seen it). Grandmaster Lim promoted him.  I do not have access to the certs., so cannot tell you the rank.

My original comment appears to be holding true, that location did play some role in grading at the higher ranks. Barring any other actual certificates from Choi Dojunim that might surface.


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## mystic warrior

Post like these kill me.
Why do you all care so much about a man that dosn't even care or know about you.
Is life that boring for you that you waste bandwith on this over and over again.
So what he does things that you do not like. If you think you can do better than do it. Quit wasting time on here and do it.
Other wise it is all talk and whinning from people who are all just talk.
No I am not defending Mr. Lee. But I am thinking that the people that complain the most live on forums like this one and just wait to complain about things like this because they have nothing of real importance going on in there own lives. And if this gets me kicked off this fourm. It would suck but. It is the truth.
Let me ask you this is your training up to snuff to make comments on anyone else or they way they do things. And who gives you the right to judge him. How about we put your life on for the world to see. I am sure there are things that would make all of us go ah no about you too.
I think there needs to be a call for growing up on martial arts forums.
Instead of this high school stuff that is passed off as smart talk.

Too I do not care what he does and here is why. When I die will I be worried about a man that did this or that. NO! I think I would be worried about my loved ones caring about me.
Life is to short to be wasting it on stupied **** like this.
But just a thought.


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## SageGhost83

mystic warrior said:


> Post like these kill me.
> Why do you all care so much about a man that dosn't even care or know about you.
> Is life that boring for you that you waste bandwith on this over and over again.
> So what he does things that you do not like. If you think you can do better than do it. Quit wasting time on here and do it.
> Other wise it is all talk and whinning from people who are all just talk.
> No I am not defending Mr. Lee. But I am thinking that the people that complain the most live on forums like this one and just wait to complain about things like this because they have nothing of real importance going on in there own lives. And if this gets me kicked off this fourm. It would suck but. It is the truth.
> Let me ask you this is your training up to snuff to make comments on anyone else or they way they do things. And who gives you the right to judge him. How about we put your life on for the world to see. I am sure there are things that would make all of us go ah no about you too.
> I think there needs to be a call for growing up on martial arts forums.
> Instead of this high school stuff that is passed off as smart talk.
> 
> Too I do not care what he does and here is why. When I die will I be worried about a man that did this or that. NO! I think I would be worried about my loved ones caring about me.
> Life is to short to be wasting it on stupied sh-- like this.
> But just a thought.


 
Yikes, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. It is a forum. In forums, you talk about stuff. This just happens to be one of the things that the people of the forum decided to talk about. What is wrong with that? Are you saying that people don't have the right to talk about it? Why are they wasting time on stuff like this? Why are *YOU* wasting time blasting them for it, and why are *YOU* passing your own judgment on them? If you don't like it, then the mature thing to do is to ignore it, not have a virtual breakdown and possibly get yourself in trouble on the forum. I mean, if you don't care what JBL does, then why even waste time posting in this thread to begin with? People care about this man because there are those who have heard about him and have a genuine curiosity about his practices. What is wrong with that? If he lies and has been caught lying many times (which he definitely has) then what is so wrong about calling him on it and holding him accountable for it? And again, what does one's level of training have to do with such a simple act as telling the truth? You can't use rank as a cover up or an excuse for dishonesty. I would hope that real honesty is something that is instilled in somebody at a young age. He lied big time, and people know that he lied. They hold him accountable and you say they are whining. Then you casually pass off the fact that he lied by saying "so what he does things that you do not like". I don't know, but if someone is a big liar, then I would hope that people would have enough common sense and self respect to at least call him on it and question his little habit. You think these people are all just talk, huh? Dude, you don't even know these people. Go to a meet and greet and they will make it clear as day that they are more than just talk . One other thing - CHILL OUT MAN!


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## mystic warrior

Ok I have no problem having an open discussion on any topic, that is cool.
Even if it is about Mr. Lee. However when it is beaten to death over and over again. And no body uses the search on the forum that our mod's put there for a reason. Then it is like kicking the slow kid or better yet a dead horse. That is all I am saying. We all know that most of the people that get on foums that train in korean martial arts do not like Mr. lee for reason that are there own thats fine.
And you should have a voice to express it.
But do the home work first and see if there is a post here that has all ready covered it. I have come on this forums a few times and not posted because it is some times the same thing just worded different.
I come on we are all smarter than that.
I like learning new things but doing the same thing over and over again. Unless its training, is boring and leads no where.
Just filling up bandwith for no real reason.
But then again if it were not Mr. Lee, then you would pick on Mr. Suh from kuk sool or the wanna be ninja from youtube.
I would like to think we are better than the pettiness.
So I hope I can be proven right.


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## SageGhost83

mystic warrior said:


> Ok I have no problem having an open discussion on any topic, that is cool.
> Even if it is about Mr. Lee. However when it is beaten to death over and over again. And no body uses the search on the forum that our mod's put there for a reason. Then it is like kicking the slow kid or better yet a dead horse. That is all I am saying. We all know that most of the people that get on foums that train in korean martial arts do not like Mr. lee for reason that are there own thats fine.
> And you should have a voice to express it.
> But do the home work first and see if there is a post here that has all ready covered it. I have come on this forums a few times and not posted because it is some times the same thing just worded different.
> I come on we are all smarter than that.
> I like learning new things but doing the same thing over and over again. Unless its training, is boring and leads no where.
> Just filling up bandwith for no real reason.
> But then again if it were not Mr. Lee, then you would pick on Mr. Suh from kuk sool or the wanna be ninja from youtube.
> I would like to think we are better than the pettiness.
> So I hope I can be proven right.


 
Yes, I agree that the OP should've used the search feature, however, the way that you lost it in your post was...um...interesting. Look, there are lots of things within this forum that gets under *my* skin, too (like that whole history of TKD thing - man, that just simply won't die :angry:!). however, I handle it in a more constructive fashion and that is really what I am getting at here. Believe it or not, there are many people who still fervently defend JBL regardless of what he did. The difference is that instead of losing it, going haywire about it in a public forum, and openly attacking all of the members of that forum, they either discuss it in a respectful and constructive manner or they discuss it via PM. Don't think that only JBL is being picked on, either - Ashida Kim got far more of an internet beat down than JBL ever got or ever will receive. Don't get me started on Frank Dux or George Dillman and his "knockouts". All frauds get their comeuppance on MT! Now, the post that I quoted from you above is more than likely the point that you were trying to get across from the start. I share your sentiment in wishing that the dead horse would stop being kicked, too. So I will formally request for the mods to lock this thread because, well, it has been discussed (I.E. beat to death :lol in countless other threads. It is nice to see your temper has cooled down and I hope that you have more positive experiences on MT :cheers:.


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## shesulsa

Well ... to be fair ... this thread was started three months ago and the topic of DJN Lee has been dropped down on the threadlist.  The thread reactivated in mid-April and it was Your post, Mystic Warrior, that revived the thread again here in May.

Some people are just finding out about some things and may start new threads about their new discoveries.  For instance, I'm sure there will be a white belt or two who will join the board this year and start asking those questions we've already read the answers to repeatedly.  It would like expecting a white belt to know all about other arts, how they compare to the one they choose to begin training in, all the big names in Martial Arts, and have a complete index of all topics on all martial arts chat boards memorized.

I would advise folks to remember that every one of us will, from time to time, come into knowledge that is new and fresh to us yet *very* old hat to many other people.

Yes negativity becomes tiresome, however ... we'd all be better martial artists and better people if we set the example in our responses rather than chastising others for being petty ... neh?

Hwarang

:asian:


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## SageGhost83

No arguments here, let the thread roll on ! And let's try to control our tempers, people :rules:.


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## blitzsquirrel

Howdy, all!  I'm a lowly 21 year-old orange belt in Hwa Rang Do's "undergrad" program, Tae Soo Do.  I thought maybe my thoughts could be of some interest.

I've never met Do Joo Nim.  I've never met Chief Master Lee.  I have, however, had the pleasure of training with various instructors in the midwest, and I'd be remiss to neglect mentioning Master David Kijek, head of the entire Midwest.  Put simply, Master Kijek is a wonderful, tender, supportive, exemplary human being, and he would be even if he weren't a black sash.  From the first moment I met him, he has been a wonderful teacher and a great mentor.  He lives a full and complete life, inside the dojang and out, and for that I have tremendous respect toward him.

My training, albeit relatively short, has been an immensely positive and rewarding experience for me, through which I've gained friends, teachers, and learned a lot in only a few short months.

Ultimately, the point toward which I am driving is that a martial art like Hwa Rang Do is significantly more than any one or two people, and some questionable dates or testimonials (which I make no effort to dispute) do not render the art devoid of value and meaning.  Yes, the historical foundation is important, but "what was" is no more important than "what is," and in the present, Hwa Rang Do is a wonderful thing, in my observation and experience.

The group is composed of people, from diverse backgrounds and unique personal histories.  *We* make up the art, not Suahm Dosa OR the ancient Hwarang knights.

Them's my thoughts.  Let me reiterate that I am NOT refuting any previously stated assertions or arguments, but rather sharing my opinion on an important side of the issue that doesn't seem to be brought up much.


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## YoungMan

I find it curious that the Hwa Rang Do organization would name their color belt curriculum after one of the older names for Taekwondo, after it switched from Tang Soo Do but before Taekwondo became fully accepted. Especially since Hwa Rang Do and Tae Soo Do had nothing to do with each other.


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## SageGhost83

blitzsquirrel said:


> Howdy, all! I'm a lowly 21 year-old orange belt in Hwa Rang Do's "undergrad" program, Tae Soo Do. I thought maybe my thoughts could be of some interest.
> 
> I've never met Do Joo Nim. I've never met Chief Master Lee. I have, however, had the pleasure of training with various instructors in the midwest, and I'd be remiss to neglect mentioning Master David Kijek, head of the entire Midwest. Put simply, Master Kijek is a wonderful, tender, supportive, exemplary human being, and he would be even if he weren't a black sash. From the first moment I met him, he has been a wonderful teacher and a great mentor. He lives a full and complete life, inside the dojang and out, and for that I have tremendous respect toward him.
> 
> My training, albeit relatively short, has been an immensely positive and rewarding experience for me, through which I've gained friends, teachers, and learned a lot in only a few short months.
> 
> Ultimately, the point toward which I am driving is that a martial art like Hwa Rang Do is significantly more than any one or two people, and some questionable dates or testimonials (which I make no effort to dispute) do not render the art devoid of value and meaning. Yes, the historical foundation is important, but "what was" is no more important than "what is," and in the present, Hwa Rang Do is a wonderful thing, in my observation and experience.
> 
> The group is composed of people, from diverse backgrounds and unique personal histories. *We* make up the art, not Suahm Dosa OR the ancient Hwarang knights.
> 
> Them's my thoughts. Let me reiterate that I am NOT refuting any previously stated assertions or arguments, but rather sharing my opinion on an important side of the issue that doesn't seem to be brought up much.


 
Well, yes. I think that everybody has made it clear that Hwarangdo is an awesome martial art and that Joo Bang Lee, while less than truthful, is an outstanding martial artist who many of us, including myself, would love to train with and learn from. The point being discussed was the less than truthful claims he made regarding the history of his art, and some not so scrupulous business practices of his. Other than that, both the man and the art are okay in my book.


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## YoungMan

But isn't truthfulness and integrity part of being an outstanding martial artist? Physical ability aside, if you're less than truthful (i.e. lying) about your background and/or business practices, does that not cast doubt upon everything else you do? I don't care how (supposedly) good you are. If I can't trust you to be honest about your background and business practices, I can't trust you for anything else.
And yes, lots of Taekwondo instructors have lied about their background and credentials. It isn't any better when they do it.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

The qualities of heart and Purpose are what seperate a warrior from a soldier. Expressed through the sword, whether that sword is made of steel, or tempered flesh and will.

Until we know the heart and purpose of the men and women directly involved, we cannot know if they are true warriors fighting for the depth of their truest beliefs, or merely mercenaries trading skill for a paycheck...instead of time in a purpose.

Best Regards,

Dave


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## dortiz

I know everyone wants this. They want the teachers to be magical monks. At the same time look at who does or especially used to do martial arts. The pioneers were folks growing up in a horrible time and training to fight. There schools and styles were about survivol. The ROK were about mean killing machines. These were tough guys. When I grew up TKD was not the fun after school sport it was what those of us that were willing to train hard at being better fighters did. 
Now through all the training we became better people and tried our best. But understand that people are human and want respect and pride. If you come from nothing you want to grow and create a better life. 
Everyone has white lies and sometimes they grow and become elephants. 
The main thing is are they good...is their system good and are their students good. 
Smile at the rest.


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## SageGhost83

YoungMan said:


> But isn't truthfulness and integrity part of being an outstanding martial artist? Physical ability aside, if you're less than truthful (i.e. lying) about your background and/or business practices, does that not cast doubt upon everything else you do? I don't care how (supposedly) good you are. If I can't trust you to be honest about your background and business practices, I can't trust you for anything else.
> And yes, lots of Taekwondo instructors have lied about their background and credentials. It isn't any better when they do it.


 
Good point, YM! I guess I am really saying that he is a very skillful practitioner and he is very proficient in the physical aspect of his craft when I say "outstanding martial artist". That is a very narrow way of looking at it on my part :whip:. My apologies. He is lacking that moral aspect in that he would openly lie, then deny it, then openly lie again, only to get caught in the end. TKD instructors do lie, however, a good many of them have excellent skill and can impart it to their students, and they didn't invent their own style and willingly give it a false history. I agree with you though - good character is part of being the total martial artist and unfortunately JBL is lacking in that department, at least on the strength of his major gaffes. Strictly in skill though, I wouldn't mind getting together with him and getting in a good workout with him. I will call shenanigans on his falsehoods, though :boing2:.


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## Kacey

*Attention all users:

Due to topic drift, posts following this one were split to their own thread, titled Training in the Korean Army, as it was felt that this topic deserved its own thread.

Please return to the topic of this thread for the remainder of the discussion, or visit the split thread to continue the discussion there.

Karen Cohn
MT Senior Moderator
*


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