# Another black eye for Taekwondo



## IcemanSK (Aug 23, 2008)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/23/olympics.cubanattacksref?gusrc=rss&feed=sport

Sadly, THIS will speak louder than the much that's good in our Art. While we understand the difference between Art & sport, the public does not.


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## crushing (Aug 23, 2008)

I just ran across that on nbcolympics.com as I was looking for TKD videos.  I see it as a black eye for Matos and a blemish for the Cuban team, not necessarily for sport TKD.


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## KickFest (Aug 23, 2008)

I saw this on the BBC as it happened and it was absolutely shocking! There's NO excuse to attack a ref in ANY sport, and this will just drag Taekwondo's name in the dirt in the eyes of the general public.



			
				crushing said:
			
		

> I see it as a black eye for Matos and a blemish for the Cuban team, not necessarily for sport TKD.


Yes, _we_ know that, but to quote Iceman:


IcemanSK said:


> While we understand the difference between Art & sport, the public does not.



In a sport like football (soccer, whatever), something like this would be put down to the player in question. As a _martial art_, this violence will reflect back on TKD and every player know that.


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## crushing (Aug 23, 2008)

People don't have to know anything about TKD to realize that one person got out of hand, did something stupid and assaulted an official.  Of course there will some people that will react in the way you suggest, but for the most part people are smarter than that (or maybe I am too optimistic? I have been let down before).

EDIT ADD-

I wonder if those that play football or soccer think the same way for their sport, that such actions are a black eye for their sport, but they wouldn't think the same about other sports where similar incidents happen?  In fact, I vaguely recall something like this happening in baseball or football.  People close to the incident thought it was bad for the sport, but people away from that sport thought only about the individual doing something bad.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

I don't think that's the worst of it tbh, the judging was abysmal whenever a Chinese fighter was involved. NOT the Chinese TKD people's fault's but certainly not an advertisement for impartiality. Luckily where the British girl was concerned the officials agreed the judges had got it wrong and changed the result, kudos to the Chinese team for their sportsmanship in agreeing that their girl had lost.


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## KickFest (Aug 23, 2008)

You raise an interesing point about "insiders" vs "outsiders" (for lack of better labels) opinions, crushing. Perhaps I'm over-defensive because TKD is something I have invested in and I worry about its public image more than joe public would.

I'll be sure to ask other people what they think and see if they view it as a black mark against TKD or the player.


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## Windsinger (Aug 23, 2008)

My fiancee is a basketball and volleyball official. While vastly different sports from TKD, I find refs get the short end of the stick no matter what they do. The Cuban coach said the ref was "too strict". But if the ref had given the Cuba player extra time, people would have complained that he was too lenient. Personally, the ref followed the rules and was in the right.

As for this poor example of a TKD practitioner, Matos got exactly what he deserved. As KickFest said, there's _no_ excuse for what he did, and what's worse is that the coach is pretty much condoning what he did. Which, imho, makes the coach no better than Matos.

Hope the ref is okay.


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## Svart (Aug 23, 2008)

Video is up to.


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## KickFest (Aug 23, 2008)

After watching that video on youtube, is it just me or does the Cuban coach say something quickly to Matos (Matos lowers his head as if to hear what the coach is saying) and turn away the second before he kicks the ref? Almost as if the coach told him to do it... :uhohh:


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

I think perhaps Olympic TKd does have a problem, the general public is far more aware of martial arts these days due to the popularity of martial arts films and their stars, there's few who haven't watched Jackie Chan for instance however they are generally ignorant of the differences between martial arts. For example people who know me obviously know I do martial arts but it gets called various things, Judo, karate, Kung Fu and even jap slapping, I've been asked several times now about the TKD that is being shown from the Olympics. The first thing is always why is it just kicking, that's not the martial arts they see normally in films etc. It's not what they see whenever a martial arts demo is on. That's TKD first image problem. If people are switching on to watch a martial art they want it to be what they consider a martial art which to many now is probably a Chinese one, punches, strikes and fancy kicking.
Will the Cuban incident harm TKD, yes but maybe not in the way you imagine. I've been on another site where everyone was saying well why couldn't the ref defend himself, ok the kick would have taken him by surprise but even so instinctively you tend to block or move. Martial artists in the general public's eyes ought to be able to defend themselves! That's the perception  and what is being voiced by non martial arts people. Rightly or wrongly that's what's out there.
The petulance and bad sportsmanship is being taken as just that, one bad apple only.


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## crushing (Aug 23, 2008)

The Youtube video has been pulled for copyright reasons.  Here is the official nbcolympics.com link:  http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/share.html?videoid=1438818

Skip ahead to around the 2:19:00 mark for the injury to the foot and the events that followed.

The ref didn't defend himself?  How did this turn around into some sort of blame the victim?  He is a 44 year old ref (supposedly surrounded by martial artists), not a world class olympic level TKD specialist!

EDIT

This link works even better:  http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/share.html?videoid=0823_SD_TKM_AU_L1783


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## IcemanSK (Aug 23, 2008)

crushing said:


> The Youtube video has been pulled for copyright reasons. Here is the official nbcolympics.com link: http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/share.html?videoid=1438818
> 
> Skip ahead to around the 2:19:00 mark for the injury to the foot and the events that followed.
> 
> The ref didn't defend himself? How did this turn around into some sort of blame the victim? He is a 44 year old ref (supposedly surrounded by martial artists), not a world class olympic level TKD specialist!


 
I agree. Whether he was also a martial art or not is beside the point. Him defending himself as a ref would have been even worse in the press. The ref did the right thing.:asian:


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## Windsinger (Aug 23, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I agree. Whether he was also a martial art or not is beside the point. Him defending himself as a ref would have been even worse in the press. The ref did the right thing.:asian:


Add to that the fact that he probably didn't expect that kind of behavior. Not at this level of competition!


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

Hey I'm not arguing but pointing out this is the* non* martial arts peoples perception of martial arts people and they are just voicing their opinions. Both the guy kicking the ref and the British girl's fights have featured heavily on the national news on the television and will be all over the newspapers in the morning! TKD is headlining at the moment big style here and not in a good way.
I agree if he'd KOd the offending guy it would have looked bad but see it from a laymans point of view here. We bang on about MA being for self defence and the 'no first strike' thing and there's this martial artist who's *attacking* someone who they perceive is also a martial artist who can't *defend* himself. Remember the martial arts competitions most people have seen are those in films! 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/23/olympics2008.olympicstaekwondo1
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/23/olympics.cubanattacksref
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport...on-takes-bronze-medal-great-Chen-robbery.html

This is the newspaper however that will make the worst of it all, The Sun is shall we say not the most tactful or thoughful paper.If you follow the link to the Cuban story and then to the comments by readers you'll see what I mean. The comments I saw were on another website.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport...on-takes-bronze-medal-great-Chen-robbery.html


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## granfire (Aug 23, 2008)

clearly a threatening pose....

wowser....he needs to go into boxing, I am sure Mike Tyson can chew his ear off....


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## Windsinger (Aug 23, 2008)

I've seen people on YouTube saying Matos should go into MMA. Even in MMA there's discipline (people like Tank Abbot excluded, of course).

I just cannot believe that there are people out there agreeing with what he did! I mean, sure, if he disagrees with the call (which I, personally, think was the right one), he has the right to be frustrated. But to deal with it the way he does... Makes me wonder how much he paid for his black belt, because he sure as hell doesn't have the discipline or the temperment of any black belt I've ever met.


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## YoungMan (Aug 23, 2008)

After this, and the incident involving Mark Lopez, I would be really surprised if Taekwondo were still in the Olympics in 2012. Watch for Wushu to take its place.


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## terryl965 (Aug 23, 2008)

I agree the Olympic sport of TKD will not be after 2012, it would be a shame for all those young athletes that have trained for the past couple of years to have a shot in 2012 and only four spots allowed. I am so ashamed to be in TKD right now with all the bad sprtmanship going on on the matt and off, between Steven and Moreno complaining and the referee's not scoring head shots along with the Cuban athlete kicking a ref.

I fear we have a mess to clean up over the next decade, I mean look at the under lying means of a closed meeting telling coaches no protest for it may hurt the sport at this point and time. What the hell do we have rules if our athletes believe they do not need to follow them. From the Nia Abdullah depacle to this Olympic we are a sport with a bruise the size of the world.

In closing I would like to say it is the sadest of time for the Art as well as the Sport.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 23, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> After this, and the incident involving Mark Lopez, I would be really surprised if Taekwondo were still in the Olympics in 2012. Watch for Wushu to take its place.


 

Do I wanna know about this one? What happened with Marl Lopez & Moreno?


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## Windsinger (Aug 23, 2008)

I saw a news article the other day about TKD not being in the Olympics after 2012. The WTF said that they intend to enact changes that will make the sport more popular, and less prone to calls of biased and unfair judging.

I do have to admit, I'm not sure if I want to see what they have planned or not.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

Someone who kicked a ref would not be welcome in MMA that's for sure. ( _I'm ignoring the 'even in MMA' remark_)
The WTF should not be looking to find ways to make TKD more popular it should be looking for ways to make the competitions faithful to the art. Trying to make it popular is whats caused the problems in the first place.
I've just come of an MMA forum where you may be surprised to know, well some, will others won't, that there is widesperead condemnation for the Cuban, however many picked up the fact that for someone who'd foot was supposed to be injured he was kicking well and he didn't limp away afterwards! The fact that they fight with guard down was mentioned a lot too but then they only said what a lot of us were saying. A couple suggested that with kicks as good as those in the competitions they should go on into Muay Thai. Not such a frivolous suggestiion actually if you think about it, not going into MT but bringing back 'proper' fights so that TKD is a ferocious sport to watch. Allow all strikes to be scored.


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## Windsinger (Aug 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> ( _I'm ignoring the 'even in MMA' remark_)


I said that because I know a lot of people view mixed martial artists as undisciplined thugs who just like to fight, which is far from the truth. No offense intended.


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## Kwanjang (Aug 23, 2008)

Well...Thats ah, not good! I will have to use this unfortunate demostration of poor sportsmanhip. Iceman, respectfully, I don't think it's a black eye for our art/sport. It just shows this guy is not a great sport. He takes it to the next level...truly sad for him :barf:


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## Laurentkd (Aug 23, 2008)

I think this is definitely a black eye for "our" sport and for one reason... I did not have a single friend or family mention say anything to me when three of our four athletes medaled.  But I had multiple people ask me about or even tease me about this fight.  And the saddest part is, it was the only TKD coverage that got any media attention.  



IcemanSK said:


> Do I wanna know about this one? What happened with Marl Lopez & Moreno?


 
I am curious also.  I hate to admit it (because frankly I think it is really sad) but _even I_ was pretty bored watching the online broadcast of the TKD competition and I have yet to watch any of Mark's fights.


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## igillman (Aug 23, 2008)

Laurentkd - I got bored watching the fights online too. Every fight seemed to be the same, bouncing like Tigger, kicking once or twice and then either jumping apart or hugging each other. It did not make a very good spectator sport.

Unless they change the judging system there are always going to be calls of unfair judging. Fencing did it by moving to an electronic scoring system and other sports have done it by having multiple judges and the lowest and highest scores removed. No system is perfect but there are much better systems in use than the one used by TKD.

Looking on the bright side, considering the number of matches that they had there were very few issues.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 23, 2008)

Well, since i dont claim that WTF olympic garbage as real TKD, the TKD i teach, this incident doesnt bother me on a personal level.

Truth be told it makes me laugh a little.

But it does bother me as a martial artist. 

Terry,
You dont teach your kids to be like that idiot, so dont be ashamed.


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## YoungMan (Aug 24, 2008)

Mark Lopez states that he was told by both the Chairman and President of the WTF to not file any protests as this would disrupt the facade of harmony in Olympic Taekwondo. He was then penalized for using a cut kick. He also stated that if things continued, maybe it would be better if Taekwondo weren't in the 2012 Olympics.


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2008)

That was Steven amd not Mark and also Moreno making those claims on Yahoo sport two days ago. Steven also said that is it was not for the Lopezs this sport would be nothing and do they the Olympic commtee do not know how much wieght the Lopezs carry. All I know is my inside sources are saying it is over after 2012 and that nothing will change that. Too bad for all those young athletes that have devoted a couple of year perfecting the game. By the way everybody knows this was my 14 dream to make it to the Olympic after hearing and reading what has gone on he does not won't anything to do with it anymore. This is a sad day.


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Well, since i dont claim that WTF olympic garbage as real TKD, the TKD i teach, this incident doesnt bother me on a personal level.
> 
> Truth be told it makes me laugh a little.
> 
> ...


 
You are right but people presive what they do not know and if I say I teach TKD and they have seen or heard this it does reflect on me and my school. We need to make changes and get back to what is true about the Art.


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## granfire (Aug 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> That was Steven amd not Mark and also Moreno making those claims on Yahoo sport two days ago. Steven also said that is it was not for the Lopezs this sport would be nothing and do they the Olympic commtee do not know how much wieght the Lopezs carry. All I know is my inside sources are saying it is over after 2012 and that nothing will change that. Too bad for all those young athletes that have devoted a couple of year perfecting the game. By the way everybody knows this was my 14 dream to make it to the Olympic after hearing and reading what has gone on he does not won't anything to do with it anymore. This is a sad day.




Olympic dream? Considering how little that style of TKD has to do with what the rest of us are doing...so be it. not a bad choice. I think it was a favor to Korea in 88 when they introduced it. I bet the IOC had no idea what can of worms they opened with it.

Too bad unless you go by irrefutable data - like KOs, there is always room for error in judging. Fencing might have the electronic devices to indicate hits to legal and illegal target, but there are still the rules of engagement that can break a tie, and if the judge does not see it right - most competitions do not have the instant replay.

But that is only one point.

The main point has nothing to do with TKD. A sore loser acting like a brat (best case) or like a thug....actuality. Obviously the rules are just a suggestion to some people...and it does ot matter what sport they play or other activity they choose.


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## mango.man (Aug 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> That was Steven amd not Mark and also Moreno making those claims on Yahoo sport two days ago. Steven also said that is it was not for the Lopezs this sport would be nothing and do they the Olympic commtee do not know how much wieght the Lopezs carry. All I know is my inside sources are saying it is over after 2012 and that nothing will change that. Too bad for all those young athletes that have devoted a couple of year perfecting the game. By the way everybody knows this was my 14 dream to make it to the Olympic after hearing and reading what has gone on he does not won't anything to do with it anymore. This is a sad day.


 
Actually it was Herb Perez that made "those claims".  And the USAT has thown him under the bus:  "*NOTE: The views expressed by the U.S. Olympic Head of Team for Taekwondo, as published in some news articles regarding the Olympic taekwondo competition, do not necessarily reflect the views of USA Taekwondo. USAT continues to work with the World Taekwondo Federation to ensure a level playing field for all athletes. "*

Herb Perez is an a$$.  But what does he care?  He already has his Olympic Gold.  For years, Steven Lopez has had calls go his way.  After all this time, a call goes against him.  Now he thinks that TKD should be removed from the Olympics.  What does he care?  He has his 2 golds, 1 bronze and his brother and sister have a silver and bronze.  Throw the sport out.  The Lopezs don't care.  They have a ton of Olympic hardware.  As far as they are concerned there is no need for Olympic competition any longer.


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2008)

granfire said:


> Olympic dream? Considering how little that style of TKD has to do with what the rest of us are doing...so be it. not a bad choice. I think it was a favor to Korea in 88 when they introduced it. I bet the IOC had no idea what can of worms they opened with it.
> 
> Too bad unless you go by irrefutable data - like KOs, there is always room for error in judging. Fencing might have the electronic devices to indicate hits to legal and illegal target, but there are still the rules of engagement that can break a tie, and if the judge does not see it right - most competitions do not have the instant replay.
> 
> ...


 
Look I am not saying anything bad here it is just some of our young athletes have put alot of time in for the way it look like nothing. I agree sport TKD is not what I was tought but for some teenager looking for a way to compete this was it, maybe I should have done swimming or Gymnastics.


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Actually it was Herb Perez that made "those claims". And the USAT has thown him under the bus: "*NOTE: The views expressed by the U.S. Olympic Head of Team for Taekwondo, as published in some news articles regarding the Olympic taekwondo competition, do not necessarily reflect the views of USA Taekwondo. USAT continues to work with the World Taekwondo Federation to ensure a level playing field for all athletes. "*
> 
> Herb Perez is an a$$. But what does he care? He already has his Olympic Gold. For years, Steven Lopez has had calls go his way. After all this time, a call goes against him. Now he thinks that TKD should be removed from the Olympics. What does he care? He has his 2 golds, 1 bronze and his brother and sister have a silver and bronze. Throw the sport out. The Lopezs don't care. They have a ton of Olympic hardware. As far as they are concerned there is no need for Olympic competition any longer.


 

I agree but if this is what is comming from our best than why would the IOC care one way if it stays, to bad for the so called sportmanship we pearch about.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 24, 2008)

granfire said:


> clearly a threatening pose....
> 
> wowser....he needs to go into boxing, I am sure Mike Tyson can chew his ear off....



From the video I saw it was a strike. How much of it did he pull? I am not sure, but it was a strike with a verbal component.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 24, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Someone who kicked a ref would not be welcome in MMA that's for sure. ( _I'm ignoring the 'even in MMA' remark_)
> The WTF should not be looking to find ways to make TKD more popular it should be looking for ways to make the competitions faithful to the art. Trying to make it popular is whats caused the problems in the first place.
> I've just come of an MMA forum where you may be surprised to know, well some, will others won't, that there is widesperead condemnation for the Cuban, however many picked up the fact that for someone who'd foot was supposed to be injured he was kicking well and he didn't limp away afterwards! The fact that they fight with guard down was mentioned a lot too but then they only said what a lot of us were saying. A couple suggested that with kicks as good as those in the competitions they should go on into Muay Thai. Not such a frivolous suggestiion actually if you think about it, not going into MT but bringing back 'proper' fights so that TKD is a ferocious sport to watch. Allow all strikes to be scored.



Yes, the same foot that was making him cry out in pain. The same one that was getting attention on, while the judge was calling out time warnings to him and even gave a count down. This is the same foot he did not limp on after getting up from the DQ and ended up kicking the ref with. 

I saw this as well.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 24, 2008)

Personally I think the guys and his coach should be fined. Not only banned but fined. Also if there are charges for for assault, press them as well. A clear message needs to be sent. That these actions are not tolerated.


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2008)

This sums it up. Thanks Herb.

*I am sick to my stomach.  This is a disgrace.  They obviously could care less about the sport.  What is Herb Perez doing calling for TKD to be removed from the Olympics.  These people have got their medals and competed in their Olympics and now they choose to ruin it for the entire sport.


When (poor judging) happens to you, youre told to shut up and not say anything because of what will happen to you, or what will happen to the sport, Perez said. If this is truly what taekwondo is about, maybe taekwondo shouldnt be in the Olympics. Maybe they should fix it.

Wow, keep your opinions about TKD in the Olympics to yourself!!!!!
What about the other athletes that are training in this sport!!!!*


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## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2008)

Well bad judging happened to the British team twice, the second time they said enough is enough, put a protest in and it was upheld with the Chinese team being very sportsmanlike and agreeing with them. Though it was hard to disagree that it was a true shot as the Chinese girl had a cut lip plus photographic and video evidence showed the extent of the kick.
Yes, it was bad judging maybe biased or maybe incompetent BUT by investigating and reversing the decision, the sport came out of it well. It showed that while mistakes will always happen the sports officials can be open, put their hands up to acknowledge the problem then rectify it. No one can ask more than that. If the American team had problems they should have put in a protest, they did in other events like the 100m, it may have been upheld or not but that openess that's vital to present a sport in a good light would have been there.
Incidentally mis-scoring happened in the boxing too, several boxers fighting Chinese boxers weren't marked fairly. The Irish team got a silver when in fact their fighter had scored enough to get the gold. I've heard too it happened in other sports where marking by judges is used.
As we say in MMA though the best way to make sure you don't get a judges decision is a KO! You can go for that in boxing but can you in TKD?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 24, 2008)

Terry,
do what I do, tell people you teach AMERICAN TKD. Seperate yourself from the WTF garbage and do it NOW. The olympic style is a dead dog anyway, we all know it. Once it i out of the olympics, it is gonna die off anyway.

Truth be told, the more you link yourself to the hands down, no self defense, no punching WTF style, the more you hurt your credibility as an instructor.

I know you think it might cost you potential students, but think of the potential students you can gain by concentrating on the REAL TKD

lose the chest protectors and start going to the open tourny's

As long as you have tourny's to take the kids to, they wont care if it is an AOK tourny of a wtf style.

You want to get back to the real art?

lose the WTF and tell the KKW to kiss your butt.



terryl965 said:


> You are right but people presive what they do not know and if I say I teach TKD and they have seen or heard this it does reflect on me and my school. We need to make changes and get back to what is true about the Art.


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## Windsinger (Aug 24, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Well bad judging happened to the British team twice, the second time they said enough is enough, put a protest in and it was upheld with the Chinese team being very sportsmanlike and agreeing with them.


Now, if only that had happened with Canadian Ivett Gonda.  Yeah, I admit, I'm a little biased because she's not only Canadian, but a BC girl. But she still should have gotten at least a couple of points.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 24, 2008)

Well that was a real shame.  The athlete and his coach are banned and like Rich I agree they should be fined and charges pressed.  That type of action is just not acceptable.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





One thing I will say though is that I do not hold the entire Olympic Tae Kwon Do movement responsible for one athletes actions.  That athlete and his coach bear the responsibility.


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## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2008)

Windsinger said:


> Now, if only that had happened with Canadian Ivett Gonda.  Yeah, I admit, I'm a little biased because she's not only Canadian, but a BC girl. But she still should have gotten at least a couple of points.


 
That's a shame! The BBC only showed a little of TKD and only when a British player was involved so we saw none of other bouts. The British lad that was involved in not having his strikes counted was only 17 and was distraught, he came off saying what did he have to do to score. The commentators said oh well, he'll be fired up for the London Games, but that's 4 years away and what if he's so discouraged he gives up the sport? What a loss. If he feels giving his all is literally pointless that is going to affect a great many would be competitiors.
Britain did well in the Olympics, our most gold medals for a hundred years just about, all the other sports are looking forward now to a resurgance of interest in those sports that did well,sailing, cycling, rowing,swimming and boxing. Good efforts in the BMX and gymnastics has got people talking and interest is building. Sports commentators are urging youngsters to go out and try these sports, to get involved. With the Games coming to London there is hope that we'll field a bigger and better Team GB than ever, it will be an awful shame if TKD can't be one of those sports or is seen as not being worth bothering about. This is the time to get people into training, while interest is still there. How many more Jamaican's are going to be trying to be sprinters now after that amazing 100m and 200m? TKD ( or the WTF?) is going to have to find a way to present their sport as equally exciting and fair if it is to survive.
I hope it works out.


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## kwaichang (Aug 24, 2008)

I DIDN'T SEE THIS ALREADY POSTED AND SO HERE IS THE WHOLE STORY:



*Cuban Taekwondo Champ Banned for Life After Kicking Referee*

*Sunday , August 24, 2008*




ADVERTISEMENT 

BEIJING  
A Cuban taekwondo athlete and his coach were banned for life after Angel Matos kicked the referee in the face following his bronze-medal match disqualification. 

Cuban coach Leudis Gonzalez offered no apology for Matos' actions during the men's over-80 kg match.
Matos was winning 3-2, with 1:02 in the second round, when he fell to the mat after being hit by his opponent, Kazakhstan's Arman Chilmanov. He was sitting awaiting medical attention when he was disqualified for taking too much injury time. Fighters get one minute, and Matos was disqualified when his time ran out.
Matos angrily questioned the call, pushed a judge, then pushed and kicked referee Chakir Chelbat of Sweden. Matos then spat on the floor and was escorted out.
"He was too strict," Gonzalez said, referring to the decision to disqualify Matos. Afterward, he charged the match was fixed, accusing the Kazakhs of offering him money.
"This is a strong violation of the spirit of taekwondo and the Olympic Games. The sanctions are the following and are effective immediately: Lifetime ban of the coach and athlete in all championships sanctioned by the [World taekwondo Federation] and at the same time, all records of this athlete at the Beijing Games will immediately be erased," said the announcer, reading a WTF release.
In his first match, Matos defeated Italy's Leonardo Basile, then beat China's Liu Xiaobo 2-1 in the quarterfinals. But he lost to South Korean Cha Dong-min in the semis to land in the bronze-medal match.
"To me it was obvious he was unable to continue," Chilmanov said. "His toe on his left foot was broken."
Matos won the gold medal in this division at the 2000 Sydney Games, dedicating the victory to his mother, who died on the day of the opening ceremony. At the 2004 Athens Games, he finished 11th.
Matos' tantrum followed a day of confusion on the mats.
Earlier Saturday, China's double gold medalist Chen Zhong crashed out in the quarterfinals after initially being declared the winner.
The day was rife with upsets.
Working her way through the easier of the two pools, Norway's relatively unheralded Nina Solheim won her first two bouts with a comfortable point margin and defeated 2005 world champion Natalia Falavigna of Brazil in the semis to meet world champion Maria del Rosario Espinoza of Mexico for the over 67-kg (147.4 pounds) title.
Espinoza won the final, going ahead in the first round and never falling behind. The final score was 4-1.
She had her hands full getting through the quarters 4-2 against Sweden's Karolina Kedzierska, who launched several high kicks that did not connect. Espinoza then took on Britain's Sarah Stevenson, the 2006 European champion, in the semis. Espinoza dominated the match, earning her final berth with a 4-1 win.
Espinoza was to fight Chen in the semis, but the judges overturned an earlier ruling and made Stevenson the winner of the quarterfinal bout in which Chen scored in the closing seconds of the second round and then Stevenson tagged her with a head kick -- worth two points -- in the third.
The judges ruled Stevenson's kick wasn't solid enough for points, and Chen was declared the winner 1-0. After Britain protested, and the result was changed to put Stevenson in the semifinal.
The decision brought loud jeers from the crowd. China did not appeal.
It was the first time a match result has been overturned since taekwondo became an official Olympic sport in 1990.
"I obviously had scored. I don't know if they weren't watching or what," Stevenson said. "That's one of the things I hate about this sport."
Stevenson won bronze, along with Brazil's Falavigna.
Cha made it four-for-four gold medals for South Korea. In taekwondo, countries are allowed to enter only four athletes.
Cha fell behind when Alexandros Nikolaidis of Greece nailed him with a head kick 15 seconds into the bout. But he came back with a body kick and a head shot of his own to take back the lead, adding another point to go 4-3 going into the third round.
Nikolaidis evened it out at 4-4 with a body kick, but Cha scored with just 18 seconds left to claim the gold in the men's over-80 kg (176 pounds) division.
Daba Modibo Keita of Mali, the 2007 world champion, was defeated in overtime in the quarterfinals by Nigeria's Chika Yagazie Chukwumerije. The Nigerian then went up against Athens silver medalist Nikolaidis.
Nikolaidis scored with a head kick in the third round, then again in the final second to advance to the final.
The bronzes went to Chilmanov, who beat Matos, and Chukwumerije.

The Olympic Official acted properly and with decorum as befits an Olympic Judge, IMO..


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## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2008)

I don't think that the Cubans outburst has damaged TKD btw, people can see it for what it was, a nasty temper tantrum by a bad sportsman. Action was taken and was seen to be taken very quickly, it can happen in any sport.The fact it was dealt with severely and that there maybe a police investigation has shown it's not acceptable. Not nice to see but the damage is limited.
If Stevenson's kick was too light to score I wonder why it bust the Chinese girls lip?


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## Kwanjang (Aug 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> This sums it up. Thanks Herb.
> 
> *I am sick to my stomach. This is a disgrace. They obviously could care less about the sport. What is Herb Perez doing calling for TKD to be removed from the Olympics. These people have got their medals and competed in their Olympics and now they choose to ruin it for the entire sport.*
> 
> ...


 
Well said Terry!


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## kwaichang (Aug 24, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> *When (poor judging) happens to you, youre told to shut up and not say anything because of what will happen to you, or what will happen to the sport,Wow, keep your opinions about TKD in the Olympics to yourself!!!!!*  ... Well said Terry!


 
hmmm, this board is all about opinions and experience so while one actually at a competition should take the first part of advice, the second part of your advice isn't in line with free speech and improving the sport.


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Terry,
> do what I do, tell people you teach AMERICAN TKD. Seperate yourself from the WTF garbage and do it NOW. The olympic style is a dead dog anyway, we all know it. Once it i out of the olympics, it is gonna die off anyway.
> 
> Truth be told, the more you link yourself to the hands down, no self defense, no punching WTF style, the more you hurt your credibility as an instructor.
> ...


 

Please I have nevr been WTF at anytime we do some WTF style of sparring for the few but we do alot of point and continous point sparring and we all ready do AOK so we are fine with. We fight hamds up at all cost, so my credibility is fine withen my circle;s. Those that know me well knows what is the most important thing to me is SD principle and then sport. We get dis-qualify alot for kicking to hard.


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## igillman (Aug 24, 2008)

The reaction of people to TKD in this olympics, on the surface, looks like an overreaction. We have had a few bad calls and one bad competitor and suddenly people are talking about removing it from the olympics. However, I think the reactions of these people is revealing an underlying issue with the sport as a whole.

Telling people not to protest for the sake of "harmony" simply leaves people frustrated and angry. That frustration and anger boils underneath the surface until something happens, someone says something and then a whole tsunami of accusations backed by years of frustration and anger finds an outlet.

The sport of TKD needs to become more open and more transparent. It needs to acknowledge that the current system of judging is flawed, find the flaws and fix them. To continue to bury their heads in the sand and to tell people not to protest will not change anything. Instead of being a sport of fighters it will become a sport of politics, "may the best connected win".

I fear that TKD is going to go the way boxing went a couple of decades ago. Blatently bad judging being upheld by the governing body ruined the sport and it is only now starting to make a comback.

The "win at all costs" mentality is creeping into the sport of TKD.


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## crushing (Aug 24, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Incidentally mis-scoring happened in the boxing too, several boxers fighting Chinese boxers weren't marked fairly. The Irish team got a silver when in fact their fighter had scored enough to get the gold. I've heard too it happened in other sports where marking by judges is used.
> As we say in MMA though the best way to make sure you don't get a judges decision is a KO! You can go for that in boxing but can you in TKD?


 
One of the boxing matches was so poorly mis-scored that a person given the gold was even booed during the medal ceremony.  I couldn't believe the scoring I saw in the DeGale/Correa fight.  I saw what I considered poor judging in the earlier rounds, but this one had me giving up on being an Olympic boxing fan.  Unfortunately (or fortunately) the only other Olympic event to watch was the synchronized swimming, which seems to me to be better suited for a Vegas show, so I figured it was time to turn off the tv.


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## granfire (Aug 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Look I am not saying anything bad here it is just some of our young athletes have put alot of time in for the way it look like nothing. I agree sport TKD is not what I was tought but for some teenager looking for a way to compete this was it, maybe I should have done swimming or Gymnastics.




I appoligize, it came out wrong.

I am sure when TKD was initiated into the Olympic ranks in 88 many had high hopes for it. 

Not many sports stay true to their roots once the precious metals cast their shine over them. And the urge to cheat for the glory is high.

Anyhow, my Sister rode (Dressage, Olympic, not without trouble these days) and I fenced. growing up in Germany either one of us had a snowball's chance in hell to get anywhere near there, but a girl can dream. Besides not living anywhere near the training center did not exactly advance my chances. My trainer btw was on the 1980s Olympic team, and we all know how that went for for the athletes. It was his only shot (and he had a good chance, too)


I am not experienced enough to say how good you can be competeing Olympic style while staying close to the roots of real MA. But if you do, a facet of the sports side falling by the wayside should not have too big of an impact. And frankly, if your kid is 14, give him the benefit of the doubt that he might have seen that Olympic TKD is just not the pinnacle of the competition. granted recent events in my life left me more cynical then before.

So, with any chance the organizations get together and clean house and get a reprieve for the sport. But like I said, TKD is a can of worms, and while there are huge numbers in practitioners, it seems to me that the organizations selected hardly represent the whole of the art and the selection process is not likely to ensure top level competition, really.

But then again that is also not likely, since TKD is not in any shape or form uniform, not even close to it. It probably never really was.

And I sincerily hope your son find something to rekindle his dreams and spirit. One Thug should not let us give up on our dreams!


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## Twin Fist (Aug 24, 2008)

Then you aint got nothing to worry about bro.Play YOUR game. The olympic style is dying, we all know that.




terryl965 said:


> Please I have nevr been WTF at anytime we do some WTF style of sparring for the few but we do alot of point and continous point sparring and we all ready do AOK so we are fine with. We fight hamds up at all cost, so my credibility is fine withen my circle;s. Those that know me well knows what is the most important thing to me is SD principle and then sport. We get dis-qualify alot for kicking to hard.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 24, 2008)

To be told "don't say anything for the sake of harmony in the sport" seems to be a very Korean thing to say. Heck, there is a history of....well, changing history. There used to be Kwans. Now there is Kukki-TKD. Shotokan played a huge part in early TKD. Now, "TKD is 2000 years old."

Sometimes truth & dicenting opinion are sacrificed for the sake of harmony. Heck, the USA is good at that as well, let's be honest.


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## YoungMan (Aug 24, 2008)

Forsaking your own opinion for the larger good is a very Oriental philosophy, right out of Confucianism, and something Westerners have a hard time accepting.
However, if you're going to open Taekwondo up to the Olympics (a celebration of Western sports), you must also realize that trying to maintain traditional Korean values will be almost impossible. Westerners protest what they see as unfair. It is part of our heritage. The only way to keep it truly Korean is to forsake the Olympics and practice Taekwondo as a traditional Korean martial art.
If one good thing comes out of this, it might be the idea that the Olympics is not why we train. I am 100% in favor of keeping Taekwondo a traditional Korean martial art regardless of where it is practiced. Sacrificing that mentality for Olympic gold? Not so much.


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## Independent_TKD (Aug 24, 2008)

I don't post much anymore but was compelled to put in my two cents...

What happened at the Olympics was pathetic. The Cuban fighter is a total coward and should be criminally charged. From my expereinces, the overall mentality and fighting stlye (tactics, point celebrating, etc.) of Olympic TKD competitiors, coaches, and schools is so far away from the real meaning of martial arts that is has become a joke. Sadly, taekwondo as it is practiced by the majority of schools in the USA has become a total laughing stock. (i.e. the movie "Foot Fist Way").

After ten years of practicing TKD, I quit to pursue muay thai, which I see as being much more effective as an overall striking martial art. I don't compete for belts in muay thai, I train strictly for self-defense. Looking back, I couldn't have made a better decision. This is my second year with muay thai and I feel I am worlds better in terms of stand-up self-defense then I ever was (or would have been) practicing TKD. That's just me, not everyone will agree.

To regain some reputation and dignity, I strongly suggest traditional TKD black blets form some kind of renamed organization or renamed art differentiating themselves from TKD. For me, I switched to another art entirely, but not everyone should have to do that.


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## turtle (Aug 24, 2008)

It's kind of depressing to see that the NBC clip has over 800,000 views, way more views than any of the other featured clips on the popular clips page that comes up after the video ends. This has turned taekwondo into a kind of "freak show" story in the mainstream media.


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 24, 2008)

To me it does not matter if the cuban guy just tapped the ref or tried to KO him or if the ref's gave a bad call. When you sign up for a tourmament, you sign up. You agreed to the whole setup.

What the cuban guy did was to show a huge lack of respect for the Olympics, TKD, the referees, and the world at large.

I'm sorry guys, but sometimes 'capital punishment' is necessary. In this case, it's out the door for good. Not only to punish him, but to send a message to all other competitors that such acts will not be tollerated, period.

Deaf


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## TheOriginalName (Aug 24, 2008)

The first rule when competing in anything - the judge\ref is always right. 
The second rule when competing in anything - if the judge\ref is wrong refer to rule one. 

If there is a major issue the majority of comps have appeal avenues open to the competitors - that is the way to deal with it. 

Something doesn't go your way - fine feel cheated\robbed but realise that umps\refs\judges are human as well and if they weren't there then you wouldn't be competing. 

As for the Cuban - a life ban for bringing the sport into disrepute should surfice. Or at least that is my opinion.


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 25, 2008)

The following statement is a "mild" generalization, about the sport venue of TKD. Most, if not all senior practicioners, have seen or been affected in some way by the less than equal treatment dispenced by the Korean overlords.....................

Since the birth of "sport TKD", from the small local tournaments thru the state and regional, right on up to the good old olympics themselves, it's all been about the almighty dollar. Student wins, then students school / instructor becomes better known and therefor is able to increase monitary gains. It becomes such a cut throat business, that cheating and plain fraud has reared it's ugly head. Bad judging, reversed calls, even arguements and fist fights have occured between Korean instructors at tournaments, because they know what's at stake and they want their piece of whatever pie is available. 

Olympic TKD has been mired down and in trouble way before this happened. There was the rumor that it was being reviewed by the IOC and many felt that it was on it's last legs and was going to be dropped, because it was not fulfilling the expected excitement and draw that it did when it was first introduced as a non-medal venue. If one can, go back and review those matches/fights and look at what's been offered today and you will most likely turn the channel in disgust. My personal opinon is that the Cuban fighter may have done the best service to the art of TKD, that anybody could have done. He's shown a "Bright Light" on a disfunctional sporting event and hopefully pushed it over the edge and convinced the powers that be, that it's long overdue for removal from the Olympic setting....................

While their at it, mabey they can get rid of the many nonsense venues that have also wandered into the Olympic format. :soapbox:


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## Archangel M (Aug 25, 2008)

http://www.nbcolympics.com/taekwondo/news/newsid=251304.html#kicked+out+cuban+banned+life



> Matos angrily questioned the call, pushed a judge, then pushed and kicked referee Chakir Chelbat of Sweden, who will require stitches in his lip. Matos spat on the floor and was escorted out.
> "This is an insult to the Olympic vision, an insult to the spirit of taekwondo and, in my opinion, an insult to mankind," Yang said.


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## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2008)

Should be in prison as well, this is not needed at any level.


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## YoungMan (Aug 25, 2008)

In the span of 15 seconds, Matos destroyed his reputation, got himself banned from the Games for life, wrecked the reputation of his school and its students, and tarnished the reputation of his art. Yeah it's one man, but perception is everything.
This is what happens when you don't exercise self control.


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## YoungMan (Aug 25, 2008)

Even if he did have a case, he should have followed proper channels instead of taking matters into his own hands. If you know what the rules are and choose to compete anyway, don't get mad when you find they apply to you as well.


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## CoryKS (Aug 25, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Should be in prison as well, this is not needed at any level.


 
Given that this is Cuba we're talking about, that's probably a done deal.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 25, 2008)

crushing said:


> This link works even better:  http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/share.html?videoid=0823_SD_TKM_AU_L1783


Having watched *that* video, yeah the guy kicking the judge was totally uncalled for. Rightfully banned. 
Spoiled kids playing in the olympics these days. Swedes throwing away their medals and spitting on the judges, Cubans kicking judges... 
You're in competition and you know there are rules. Do the best you can in the time allotted and go on. 
Should've protected that foot better (or worn pads) fella. 

I don't see a blemish on TKD but I do see a blemish on the Cubans.



turtle said:


> It's kind of depressing to see that the NBC clip has over 800,000 views, way more views than any of the other featured clips on the popular clips page that comes up after the video ends. This has turned taekwondo into a kind of "freak show" story in the mainstream media.


 Disagree here, it doesn't make it into a freak show it makes it into a fair showing of what actually happened rather than hearsay.


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## jim777 (Aug 25, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> Personally I think the guys and his coach should be fined. Not only banned but fined. Also if there are charges for for assault, press them as well. A clear message needs to be sent. That these actions are not tolerated.


 
I'm waiting to see if these two (Matos and coach) get a hero's parade back in Havana or escorted to jail. At this point I wouldn't bet either way...

(And all of the non martial artists who've mentioned the fight to me have been heavily on the "Did you see the Cuban freak out?" side, and not the "Did you see the TKD guy freak out?" side)

And while I feel badly for the youngsters who have trained for the Olymipcs in TKD for years and years and may not now ever get the chance to compete in an Olympics, the hands down sparring Olympic TKD that exists now has to go away. It has to.


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## Windsinger (Aug 25, 2008)

The thing I find almost as shocking as the act itself is the fact that there are so many people _supporting_ this clown! Now, I admit, I tend to have a very optimistic view of the world (some would say 'unrealistic' ). But even so, the adulation some people have for Matos and the demonizing of the ref I find utterly baffling.

The proof is right there in the video that Matos was justifiably disqualified, and that he lashed out at the ref out of anger. How can people believe this guy was right?

I think the most disgusting thing is people saying that the ref deserved it because "he's a ref. They're all corrupt." What utter tripe! My fiancee is a ref in two different sports, so I know that most of the crap refs get is totally unjustified. But even in situations where a ref _is_ in the wrong, there's no excuse at all for this kind of behavior. (Personally, I thought the reffing I saw was pretty good in these matches. The judging... not so much. (*cough*Ivett Gonda*cough*robbed*cough* )

I had one guy on YouTube telling me Matos was justified because he was "defending his honour". Sorry, any honour Matos had he threw away with a single kick. It wasn't his honour Matos was defending. It was his over-blown, misplace pride. He lashed out at the ref because the rules were 'unfair' (read: 'did not favour Angel Matos').

*Amusing side story:* My fiancee was reffing a high school basketball game. She fouled one of the players, and the assistant coach of that team went ballistic. After a couple of minutes, my fiancee told her to sit down, and if she stood up to complain one more time, she would be receiving a technical foul (she'd been rather vocal through the whole game, even though her team was winning from the outset).

Well, not five minutes later, she went off again. True to her word, my fiancee t'ed her and ejected her from the game.

After the game, as we were walking out, the assistant coach was in front of us talking to someone. She said, "Can you believe she gave me a technical?!"

To which her friend replied, "Did you ever stop and think that maybe you deserved it?"

I was a good boy. I didn't laugh at her. Outwardly.


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## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2008)

You know it seem everyone is talking about the Cuban and rightfully should but the words from Jaun Moreno and the Lopezs should be express as well. I believe these words could damage TKD far more than that kick. The kick was bad sportmanship but the words about fixing and making all sign papers not to file a protest because of the all ready bad influence TKD has withen the IOC is disturbing to me. What is everyone else take?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 25, 2008)

Terry,
i think you are more than likely correct.

I also think no one can be suprised that the Lopez clan and Moreno are saying these things, seeing as how to date, they have gotten whatever they wanted..........


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 25, 2008)

jim777 said:


> And while I feel badly for the youngsters who have trained for the Olymipcs in TKD for years and years and may not now ever get the chance to compete in an Olympics, the hands down sparring Olympic TKD that exists now has to go away. It has to.



I tend to agree.

I will be honest, I watched some of the olympic rounds and these are supposed to be the 'best' in the world and all and to be honest, I find olympic TKD the most boring of the combat sports to watch.  It's just excruciating to watch 6 minutes of fighting with a cumulative 10-15 seconds of anything real going on.  And I just hate watching that the 'elite' of the sport use techniques that I've been taught and taught are just a bad idea, even *in* sparring.  Hands down is one, foot placement is another, combinations being a bad one.

I'll probably still compete in tournaments and such for my own goals and reasons but I'm finding more and more that the more prestigious the fighters, the more boring the fights.


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## arnisador (Aug 25, 2008)

Wow, unbelievable! Kicking a judge!


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## Tez3 (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm afraid in the UK the kicking of the judge came a poor second to the judges decision to ignore many of the two British players hits. That made all the papers and the national news reports on the tele.
The sight of a 17 year old lad in tears asking what he had to do to win when he knew he'd given it all and had many of his kicks ignored was irresistable to the press here then the lass in the same state knowing she'd won the match but being denied it made for a big juicy story. It's going to be remembered here for a long time and dragged up time and again. She could have had a gold or silver if it hadn't been for the bad judging is how everyone thinks. The story may die but will be resurrected for the next Olympics for sure.


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## CoryKS (Aug 25, 2008)

jim777 said:


> I'm waiting to see if these two (Matos and coach) get a hero's parade back in Havana or escorted to jail. At this point I wouldn't bet either way...


 
Looks like it's going to be the former.  Zombie Castro has given his seal of approval.


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## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2008)

CoryKS said:


> Looks like it's going to be the former. Zombie Castro has given his seal of approval.


 
That is a shame but if they did try and sway the official with money then that may have some light on the competitor. We will need to watch and see if it becomes true or not.


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## Tez3 (Aug 25, 2008)

What's going to be overlooked now because of the support for the Cuban is the fact that the two boxers among others of different nationalities were robbed.
I can understand the Cuban's frustration if he felt the ref was being unfair but obviously kicking him was the wrong way to redress any wrong that may have happened. Doesn't strengthen your protest to the officials any, tends to make them a bit anti really. 

Doesn't he understand if you are going to kick someone like that you do it when there's no witnesses not potentially hundreds of thousands of them lol! :tantrum:


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 25, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Doesn't he understand if you are going to kick someone like that you do it when there's no witnesses not potentially hundreds of thousands of them lol! :tantrum:



You hold up your hands and say "Hey, man, I really don't want to fight you"


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## jim777 (Aug 26, 2008)

CoryKS said:


> Looks like it's going to be the former. Zombie Castro has given his seal of approval.


 
Yeah, and another. I had a feeling.


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## granfire (Aug 26, 2008)

Blah Blah Blah....more rethoric....:barf:


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## Kwanjang (Aug 26, 2008)

From the information I have gathered, it is quite possible TKD will be removed from the olympics. That is very sad for all those people who invested in the TORCH program and all the "olympic" based schools, IF TKD is indeed removed from the games. As a longtime practioner of TKD, I do not like the olympic version. However, I embrace the traditional aspects.
It would seem the bad sportsmanship from other sports is bleeding into "olympic" taekwondo. I am not trying to ruffle any feathers-just my opinion.


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> From the information I have gathered, it is quite possible TKD will be removed from the olympics. That is very sad for all those people who invested in the TORCH program and all the "olympic" based schools, IF TKD is indeed removed from the games. As a longtime practioner of TKD, I do not like the olympic version. However, I embrace the traditional aspects.
> It would seem the bad sportsmanship from other sports is bleeding into "olympic" taekwondo. I am not trying to ruffle any feathers-just my opinion.


 
TKD is already locked into the 2012 games.  Nothing will change that now.  It barely made it though in the last vote  The next vote, to determine the sports for the 2016 games, will be held in October 2009.  I am sure TKD will be on the chopping block again.  We will see if it survives.  What helped it survive last time is that so many poorer countries see TKD as an opportunity for their country to win a medal at little cost.  If enough of these small poor countries vote again to keep it, than it will stay.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 26, 2008)

Here is a new question:
what are you (or your instructors) saying when students ask about this?
It happened twice tonight, and the gist of what my instructor said was that there are bad apples in every sport, and what we do isn't really Olympic Taekwondo anyway.  Sure we teach WTF forms and get Kukkiwon certificates and follow basically the same rules in tournaments, but we do not train as an "Olympic sparring" school.  Olympic Sparring is just the sport aspect of the art we practice.
What has been discussed at your dojang?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 26, 2008)

in my class last night we talked about 3 things

1)how retarded olympic style sparring was
2)how weak that fighters kick was, a FREE SHOT, and all he managed to do was split the guys lip
3)how completely childish it is to get upset over bad judging


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## jim777 (Aug 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> in my class last night we talked about 3 things
> 
> 1)how retarded olympic style sparring was
> 2)how weak that fighters kick was, a FREE SHOT, and all he managed to do was split the guys lip
> 3)how completely childish it is to get upset over bad judging


 
I agree completely with no. 1 and 3...but...well, it wasn't a Chuck Norris roundhouse, which would have killed him instantly (and perhaps all of his children and grandchildren) I'll give you that. It looked to me like a slapping hook kick with the ball of his foot, not even one for power with the heel. He obviously wasn't trying to kill the ref. I've had to point this out to people (believe it or not) that there are plenty of TKD kicks that could have taken the ref's head clean off had that been the fighter's aim. I've actually seen people on forums say "A Muay Thai fighter would have killed him, not given him a stich in a bloody lip!" I mean seriously, WTF? The kick was completly unjustified but it could have been MUCH WORSE. This is a world champ, not for nothing. A dope par excellance, but a man to be feared, certainly. He gave him the least painful kick he could deliver - even a front sbnap to the groin would have put that ref in the hospital.

As much as I dislike that this happened, I dislike equally that people think this is as dangerous as TKD gets.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2008)

Jim, i think you are giving the cuban too much benefit of the doubt.

based on how be faught before he lost his friggin mind, I think thats the best shot he had.

and I have never, NEVER seen an olympic style fighter I would be afraid to go with.

Even herb Perez back in his day hit like a teenager. Real fast, and real LIGHT


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## Montecarlodrag (Aug 27, 2008)

I have been victim of bad judging, (I think we all have been). It makes me very angry, specially when I know I'm winning.

But, attacking a ref or judge, even if you're right, is a bad idea.

Is better to show respect and humility, bow to the judges then to the public, and take your leave. I bet you will receive an applause.

Of one thing I am sure: If you can't win the right way, there's no friggin way to win the wrong way (cheating, kicking low, or insulting judges). Even if you manage to take a medal, it isn't really yours.

I'd lose a Gold medal in exchange for my honor anytime. For me, is better to walk away with you pride untouched and lose with honor.

I'd better die than make an idiot of myself behaving that way in front of so many millions of people... live!

About the kick, it seemed like the guy's best shot. Even my grandma can stand that kick. It makes no sense to humiliate yourself that way, and also being laughed at by the entire martial world for kicking like a girl. Damn.


Regards.


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## granfire (Aug 27, 2008)

Hay, i kick like a girl, too!!!!


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## YoungMan (Aug 27, 2008)

Not that I'm a great fan of Olympic sparring, but I would not want to fight some of those guys. There are weak fighters, but there are plenty of fighters who are fast and strong-it is full contact after all. Don't underestimate it. There's a reason they wear armor and headgear.
Anyone who thinks they could climb into a ring with any of those guys, go right ahead.


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## bluekey88 (Aug 27, 2008)

I have a great deal of repsect for those gusy...and I plan to climb into the ring at the Senior national level next summer.  Put my money where my mouth is so to speak.

I've met a few of the top tear gusy and trained with some of them.  I think they know the difference between Olympic sport and SD training...many of them can make the transition.  due to their athleticism, they are dangerous in either mode of fighting.

peace,
Erik


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Not that I'm a great fan of Olympic sparring, but I would not want to fight some of those guys. There are weak fighters, but there are plenty of fighters who are fast and strong-it is full contact after all. Don't underestimate it. There's a reason they wear armor and headgear.
> Anyone who thinks they could climb into a ring with any of those guys, go right ahead.


 
So, why weren't the strong, fast fighters in the Olympics then?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2008)

yeah, i mean, sure there are a lot of "TKD Knockouts" clips on you tube.

Know why?

they cant take a shot to the head, since they dont allow punches to the head.

The last olympic tkd fighter that i thought would be a handful were Arlene Limas and Jimmy, both from 88


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, i mean, sure there are a lot of "TKD Knockouts" clips on you tube.
> 
> Know why?
> 
> ...


Yes, but they allow kicks.  I'd rather be punched than kicked in the head, though in truth I'd prefer neither.  Of course thats why I don't hold my hands at my waist when I spar (I find that a ridiculous practice, even from an athletic standpoint and refuse to do so).

I would disagree that a competitor at that level can't take a head shot.  Plus, I'm sure that there are a lot of boxing KOs on youtube (I surmise), but that doesn't mean that boxers in general can't take a head shot.  

I don't have the answer as to why more of the best aren't in the olympics.  Perhaps in 1988, the best were still focused on being martial artists and not on the equivalent of kick-fencing?  Lets face it: if you train to fight for real, then your kicks and punches are likely to pack more power.

Daniel


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## zDom (Aug 27, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> So, why weren't the strong, fast fighters in the Olympics then?



Yea, that's kind of what I'm wondering ...

Also I'm wondering about this: weren't there EIGHT divisions in TKD at the Olympic?

How come, with all the thousands of TKD practitioners, we only sent FOUR?


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## mango.man (Aug 27, 2008)

zDom said:


> Yea, that's kind of what I'm wondering ...
> 
> Also I'm wondering about this: weren't there EIGHT divisions in TKD at the Olympic?
> 
> How come, with all the thousands of TKD practitioners, we only sent FOUR?


 
Olympics use combined weight divisions.  (Fin/Fly, Bantam/Feather, Light/Welter & Middle/Heavy)

And the max any country can send is 4.  2 Male and 2 Female.  I believe the cap is 128 total TKD competitors.


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## Tames D (Aug 27, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> I have been victim of bad judging, (I think we all have been). It makes me very angry, specially when I know I'm winning.
> 
> But, attacking a ref or judge, even if you're right, is a bad idea.
> 
> ...


 
I think you just insulted all the fine female martial artists on this forum...


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## crushing (Aug 27, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> So, why weren't the strong, fast fighters in the Olympics then?


 
They weren't fast?  They only need to be strong enough to give the judges the impression they made contact with a legal scoring area.

I would like to second YoungMan's comment that anyone that thinks they can hang with the Olympians to seek them out and give it a try.  Make sure you make a video and post the results on youtube (people love that kind of stuff on youtube).  If it's that easy, maybe we'll see you competing in London 2012?  

The Olympic 10 meter platform divers made their event look pretty easy too, but I'm sure I wouldn't know which way was up by the time I belly-flopped and pulled out of the pool.


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## granfire (Aug 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, i mean, sure there are a lot of "TKD Knockouts" clips on you tube.
> 
> Know why?
> 
> ...




UHM, taking a shot to the head is generally speaking not a very wise idea.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2008)

I make an effort to take as many shots to the head as possible. Or at least I did when i was younger.

why?

cuz in the street, thats where they are gonna punch, and i want to be able to take a good shot and not go down.

yes, you can train yourself to resist the knockout reflex


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## zDom (Aug 27, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Olympics use combined weight divisions.  (Fin/Fly, Bantam/Feather, Light/Welter & Middle/Heavy)
> 
> And the max any country can send is 4.  2 Male and 2 Female.  I believe the cap is 128 total TKD competitors.



Thanks for clearing that up. I googled it and thought it listed 8 medal categories, but I guess I misunderstood.


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## granfire (Aug 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> I make an effort to take as many shots to the head as possible. Or at least I did when i was younger.
> 
> why?
> 
> ...




I'll take your word for it though to my knowledge there are just a few things that are not reflex...like taking damage for instance....


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## mango.man (Aug 27, 2008)

zDom said:


> Thanks for clearing that up. I googled it and thought it listed 8 medal categories, but I guess I misunderstood.


 
Indeed it does equal 8 medal categories

1 Male Fin/Fly
1 Female Fin/Fly
1 Male Ban/Fea
1 Female Ban/Fea
1 Male Lt/Wel
1 Female Lt/Wel
1 Male Mid/Hvy
1 Female Mid/Hvy


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2008)

granfire said:


> I'll take your word for it though to my knowledge there are just a few things that are not reflex...like taking damage for instance....


Training to avoid knockouts is something that boxers do.  Yes, there are ways to train to resist a knockout.  I don't know of many TKD schools that focus on them, though.

Daniel


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## bluekey88 (Aug 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> I make an effort to take as many shots to the head as possible. Or at least I did when i was younger.
> 
> why?
> 
> ...


 
However, you CAN"T train yourself to avoid brain damage.  Just because you don't get knocked out doesn't mean your brain sloching about in your skull is a good thing.  As a former employee at a head trauma rehab center I can say that avoiding damage to ones brain is a good thing...deliberately taking excessive headshots as training is a questionable practice at best.

Peace,
Erik


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## mango.man (Aug 27, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> However, you CAN"T train yourself to avoid brain damage. Just because you don't get knocked out doesn't mean your brain sloching about in your skull is a good thing. As a former employee at a head trauma rehab center I can say that avoiding damage to ones brain is a good thing...deliberately taking excessive headshots as training is a questionable practice at best.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


 
It sure does explain a lot of the points of views that I often read here and else where though


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## YoungMan (Aug 27, 2008)

Ask Muhammed Ali how he feels about taking shots to the head. That's partly why he is in the condition he is in today.


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## mango.man (Aug 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Ask Muhammed Ali how he feels about taking shots to the head. That's partly why he is in the condition he is in today.


 
Not necessarily.  There is more and more evidence that Parkinson's is genetic.  Not saying that it is not the reason for his onset of Parkinson's, but to my knowledge it has never been proven that his line of work was even partially the cause.  I don't recall Michael J Fox in many boxing matches.  Nor Pope John Paul for that matter.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Training to avoid knockouts is something that boxers do.  Yes, there are ways to train to resist a knockout.  I don't know of many TKD schools that focus on them, though.
> 
> Daniel



try ranking up in a TKD lineage in texas populated by people from the old pKA

you will learn to resist the knockout reflex


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2008)

Ali has parkinson's 

that aint cuz of boxing alone.

oh, never mind, thats been addressed already


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## granfire (Aug 27, 2008)

I guess it's a good thing we use on average only 10% of our brains. I guess the exact percentage varies.

As I recall the jury is still out on how continuous trauma effects the brain. And as it has a accumulative effect as well....

But that's fine if you consider it proper technique, I prefer to not put myself into the situation where it could become a matter of life and death: I avoid street fighting, as generations before me did. Worked well.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 27, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Not necessarily. There is more and more evidence that Parkinson's is genetic. Not saying that it is not the reason for his onset of Parkinson's, but to my knowledge it has never been proven that his line of work was even partially the cause. I don't recall Michael J Fox in many boxing matches. Nor Pope John Paul for that matter.


 

Actually, Ali has Parkinson's syndrome, which is not from the same origin as the disease itself. The syndrome does come from the type of repeated blows to the head that can come from boxing. Sadly, many boxers get it. I've spent a great deal of time with older boxers who have slowed mental faculties due to boxing way too long. Not necessarily Parkinson's syndrome, but damage non-the-less.


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## bluekey88 (Aug 28, 2008)

granfire said:


> I guess it's a good thing we use on average only 10% of our brains. I guess the exact percentage varies.
> 
> As I recall the jury is still out on how continuous trauma effects the brain. And as it has a accumulative effect as well....
> 
> But that's fine if you consider it proper technique, I prefer to not put myself into the situation where it could become a matter of life and death: I avoid street fighting, as generations before me did. Worked well.


 
Actually, current research is pretty conclusive that repeated micro-trauam to the brain can have a cumulative effect on mental functioning.  

Peace,
Erik


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## Grenadier (Aug 28, 2008)

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:

_Please, return to the original topic.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## HG1 (Sep 3, 2008)

How much of an effect has this incident had on Tae Kwon Do?  Are parents pulling their kids out of TKD class?  Does this spell the end of the Olympic sport?  Just curious how far the repercussions go.


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## igillman (Sep 3, 2008)

I would keep an eye on the number of people participating at the higher level of the sport, in particular the international level.

As for me, it has not changed me or my family at all. We still go to TKD every week and will continue to do so for as long as we enjoy it.

The olympics did not damage TKD, it damaged itself and the olympics was simply the messenger.

The olympics may actually have done it some good. For as long as the corrupt judging was only being noticed by the people in the sport they could keep it quiet and present an "honourable" view to the world. Once they opened up the sport to a worldwide audience they could no longer control the message. Their words could not outweigh what was seen and they had no control over the people who saw it. They are either going to clean up their act or shrink back down to a minority sport viewed mainly by those who take part.


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Sep 3, 2008)

:uhohh: :xtrmshock  *No matter how you look at it, it aint good!* :uhohh: :xtrmshock  

*-Kevin*


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## mango.man (Sep 3, 2008)

I serously doubt any parent even considered for a moment, pulling their kid out of TKD based on anything that they saw in the olympics.

Regarding whether or not TKD will survive next years vote for it's inclusion in the 2016 games, well I can think of a few countries that will probably vote to keep it around. For many of these countries and others like them, TKD is seen as a decent shot of bringing home an easy medal. If it stays, that will likely be a big part of the reason. 

Afghanistan won 1 medal in these games, 1 bronze and their first ever olympic medal. It was due to TKD.
Mens 58 kg (128 lbs), Bronze- R. Nikpai (Afghanistan)

Brazil won 15 medals in these games, 3 gold, 4 silver and 8 bronze. 1 bronze was due to TKD.
Womens +67 kg (+148 lbs), Bronze- Natália Falavigna (Brazil)

Canada won 18 medals in these games, 3 gold, 9 silver and 6 bronze. 1 silver was due to TKD.
Womens 67 kg (148 lbs), Silver- Karine Sergerie (Canada)

China and Chinese Taipei won 100 medals in these games, 51 gold, 21 silver and 28 bronze. 1 gold and 2 bronze were due to TKD.
Mens 80 kg (176 lbs), Bronze- Zhu Guo (China)
Womens 49 kg (108 lbs), Gold- J. Wu (China)
Mens 58 kg (128 lbs), Bronze- C. Yen (Chinese Taipei)

Croatia won 4 medals in these games, 2 silver and 2 bronze. Both bronze were due to TKD.
Womens 67 kg (148 lbs), Bronze- Sandra ari&#263; (Croatia)
Womens 57 kg (125 lbs), Bronze- Martina Zubcic (Croatia)

Cuba won 24 medals in these games, 2 gold, 11 silver and 11 bronze. 1 bronze was due to TKD.
Womens 49 kg (108 lbs), Bronze- D. Montejo (Cuba)

Dominican Republic won 2 medals in these games, 1 gold and 1 silver. The silver was due to TKD.
Mens 58 kg (128 lbs), Silver- Y. Mercedes (Dominican Republic)

France won 40 medals in these games, 7 gold, 16 silver and 17 bronze. 1 bronze was due to TKD.
Womens 67 kg (148 lbs), Bronze- Gwladys Épangue (France)

Great Britian won 47 medals in these games, 19 gold, 13 silver and 15 bronze. 1 bronze was due to TKD.
Womens +67 kg (+148 lbs), Bronze- Sarah Stevenson (Great Britian)

Greece won 4 medals in these games, 2 silver and 2 bronze. 1 silver due to TKD.
Mens +80 kg (+176 lbs), Silver- Alexandros Nikolaidis (Greece)

Iran won 2 medals in these games, 1 gold and 1 bronze. The gold was due to TKD.
Mens 80 kg (176 lbs), Gold- Hadi Saei (Iran)

Italy won 28 medals in these games, 8 gold, 10 silver and 10 bronze. 1 silver was due to TKD.
Mens 80 kg (176 lbs), Silver- Mauro Sarmiento (Italy)

Mexico won 3 medals in these games, 2 gold and 1 bronze. Both of the gold were due to TKD.
Womens +67 kg (+148 lbs), Gold- Maria Espinoza (Mexico)
Mens 58 kg (128 lbs), Gold- G. Perez (Mexico)

Nigeria won 4 medals in these games, 1 silver and 3 bronze. 2 bronze were due to TKD.
Mens +80 kg (+176 lbs), Bronze- Chika Chukwumerije (Nigeria)
Mens +80 kg (+176 lbs), Bronze- Arman Chilmanov (Nigeria)

Norway won 10 medals in these games, 3 gold, 5 silver and 2 bronze. 1 silver was due to TKD.
Womens +67 kg (+148 lbs), Silver- Nina Solheim (Norway)

South Korea won 31 medals in these games, 13 gold, 10 silver and 8 bronze. 4 of those 13 gold were due to TKD.
Mens +80 kg (+176 lbs), Gold- Cha Dong-Min (South Korea)
Womens 67 kg (148 lbs), Gold- Hwang Kyung-Seon (South Korea)
Mens 68 kg (128 lbs), Gold- Son, Tae-jin (South Korea)
Womens 57 kg (125 lbs), Gold- Lim Su-jeong (South. Korea)

Taiwan won 4 medals in these games, 4 bronze. 1 bronze was due to TKD.
Mens 68 kg (128 lbs), Bronze- Sung, Yu-Chi (Taiwan)

Thailand won 4 medals in these games, 2 gold and 2 silver. 1 silver was due to TKD.
Womens 49 kg (108 lbs), Silver- B. PuedPong (Thailand)

Turkey won 8 medals in these games, 1 gold, 4 silver and 3 bronze. 2 bronze were due to TKD.
Mens 68 kg (128 lbs), Bronze- Servet, Tezegul (Turkey)
Womens 57 kg (125 lbs), Silver- Azize Tanrikulu (Turkey)

Vietnam won 1 medal in these games, 1 bronze. It was due to TKD.
Womens 49 kg (108 lbs), Bronze- D. Contreras Rivero (Vietnam)

United States won 110 medals in these games, 36 gold 38 silver and 36 bronze. 1 silver and 2 bronze were due to TKD.
Womens 57 kg (125 lbs), Bronze- Diana Lopez (USA)
Mens 68 kg (128 lbs), Silver- Mark Lopez (USA)
Mens 80 kg (176 lbs), Bronze- Steven Lopez (USA)


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Sep 3, 2008)

mango.man said:


> I serously doubt any parent even considered for a moment, pulling their kid out of TKD based on anything that they saw in the olympics.
> 
> Regarding whether or not TKD will survive next years vote for it's inclusion in the 2016 games, well I can think of a few countries that will probably vote to keep it around. For many of these countries and others like them, TKD is seen as a decent shot of bringing home an easy medal. If it stays, that will likely be a big part of the reason.


 
*I agree with you mango ..... but it does look bad.*
*How have you been doing my friend?*

*-Kevin*


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## mook jong man (Sep 3, 2008)

I don't think you Taekwondo people should be worried so much about it . People are not stupid they can understand that it was just one idiot out of millions of practitioners .

 I reckon you people should be proud of how well known your art is to the general public , i studied Wing Chun for 10 years and always used to get non martial art friends saying ," so mate how is your Taekwondo going "? I would reply not very well because i do Kung Fu not Taekwondo. 

You try too educate them and you think they get it, and then the next time you see them you hear " so mate how's your Taekwondo going" . I think a lot of arts would kill to have the public profile that Taekwondo has.


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## Tez3 (Sep 4, 2008)

Should I point out that our bronze medalists could well have been gold or silver if it hadn't been for the suspect judging? It wasn't the only case either, one of the men had the same problem. It's put many people off TKD here for sure. they understand the Cuban 'incident' was bad temper, bad sportsmanship whatever by one person but biased judging is something else.


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Sep 4, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> I don't think you Taekwondo people should be worried so much about it . People are not stupid they can understand that it was just one idiot out of millions of practitioners .
> 
> I reckon you people should be proud of how well known your art is to the general public , i studied Wing Chun for 10 years and always used to get non martial art friends saying ," so mate how is your Taekwondo going "? I would reply not very well because i do Kung Fu not Taekwondo.
> 
> You try too educate them and you think they get it, and then the next time you see them you hear " so mate how's your Taekwondo going" . I think a lot of arts would kill to have the public profile that Taekwondo has.


 
*THANK YOU VERY MUCH! Really.......*
*-Kevin*


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 4, 2008)

I doubt that the bad judging will put people off of TKD.  There was bad judging in every event that I saw that had any subjective element.  Not that many years ago, figure skating suffered a serious judges scandal, but there wasn't any talk that I recall of removing it from the olympics, and I doubt that the scandal put anyone off in any substantial numbers.

Daniel


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