# The War of Northern Aggression (U.S. Civil War).



## Rich Parsons (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Andi _
> *. . .
> There's something I didn't know. I always thought that the civil war settled all that. Is it much of an issue there? I mean do you get random politicians trying to get elected on the basis of seceding?? Surely to withdraw would be ridiculous. Slightly off topic, I know, but I'm curious.
> *



(* Yes this is off topic, and I hope Arnisador will not punish me for it  *)

I do not know of any poloticians that run on this platform. IT is more of a back woods or down to earth movement. There Great grand Fathers told stories to their Grandfather, ... , . Now, is it ever person? No way! Are there people yes! SO, I can see it happen, yet there will be pain.

And Like I Said it will not be for Military, it will be for economics.
:asian:


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## OULobo (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Andi _
> *
> There's something I didn't know. I always thought that the civil war settled all that. Is it much of an issue there? I mean do you get random politicians trying to get elected on the basis of seceding?? Surely to withdraw would be ridiculous. Slightly off topic, I know, but I'm curious.*



The War of Northern Aggression did essentially put the issue to bed, but old blood dries hard. People in the South make North/South comments as a tongue in cheek statements. I don't think there will ever be another civil war in the US. The first thing is that there has been quite a bit of population shift into the south diluting the antinorth sentiment, second the bond of the US as a nation has developed to the point where people all through the US are quite proud to be brothers under the stars and stripes. Finally and most recognized is the staggering loss of American life in the American Civil War. The idea of brother vs brother is even more distastfull now than it was then. The ghosts of the grey are remembered, but let them wander in peace, knowing that they are still remembered as American soldiers first and Confederates second.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *The War of Northern Aggression did essentially put the issue to bed, but old blood dries hard. People in the South make North/South comments as a tongue in cheek statements. I don't think there will ever be another civil war in the US. The first thing is that there has been quite a bit of population shift into the south diluting the antinorth sentiment, second the bond of the US as a nation has developed to the point where people all through the US are quite proud to be brothers under the stars and stripes. Finally and most recognized is the staggering loss of American life in the American Civil War. The idea of brother vs brother is even more distastfull now than it was then. The ghosts of the grey are remembered, but let them wander in peace, knowing that they are still remembered as American soldiers first and Confederates second. *



OULobo,

Thank You for this reply. The War of Northern Aggression, in which history book was this listed? I have heard it called this by those in the south. I have also heard the same war called Separationists, the war of, in the north.

Yes all those that died in the horrible war were Americans. No matter which side they choose to stand. Many of those farmers, from both the north and the south, stood wth their friends and family as a matter of pride not over economics or freedom.

I do not make this post to jest with you, or insult you, only to converse with you and to let everyone see that there is not only one way to look at this or any issue. (* This is, as I believe, you intended *)


Excellant post!

Not back to the discussion on the EU
:asian:


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## OULobo (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *OULobo,
> 
> Thank You for this reply. The War of Northern Aggression, in which history book was this listed? I have heard it called this by those in the south. I have also heard the same war called Separationists, the war of, in the north.
> ...



Note to mods: Last comment on the Civil War subject. 

You hit it on the head. Consequently I call the war that as an off color comment and I know the name because I was partially raised in Alabama, in the heart of the home of the stars and bars.


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## arnisador (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Note to mods: Last comment on the Civil War subject.
> *



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ap/20031001/ap_on_re_us/vanishing_southerners


Maybe I'll split off the Civil War discussion later.


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## arnisador (Oct 1, 2003)

Thread split from here.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## pknox (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *The War of Northern Aggression did essentially put the issue to bed, but old blood dries hard. People in the South make North/South comments as a tongue in cheek statements. I don't think there will ever be another civil war in the US. The first thing is that there has been quite a bit of population shift into the south diluting the antinorth sentiment, second the bond of the US as a nation has developed to the point where people all through the US are quite proud to be brothers under the stars and stripes. Finally and most recognized is the staggering loss of American life in the American Civil War. The idea of brother vs brother is even more distastfull now than it was then. The ghosts of the grey are remembered, but let them wander in peace, knowing that they are still remembered as American soldiers first and Confederates second. *



OULobo:

Very eloquent as usual.  A few other reasons I might add are the slow passage of time, a general change in the way wars have been fought by the U.S. since the end of the Civil War, mostly due to our place in the world; and our more heterogenous makeup since the end of the conflict.

First, there are no remaining living Civil War vets, and while many people (especially Northerners) joke that those in the South are just waiting to regroup for the next battle, just about everybody realizes that's just not true.  The South has seen quite a bit of economic growth in the last few decades, and a great deal of that is due to industries moving from the higher-cost North.  Evidently, when you bring jobs and a higher standard of living with you, people are more willing to forgive something that happened some time ago.  The passage of time, as well as the general waning of interest in history, dilutes the intense fervor that once existed.

Secondly, prior to the Civil War, we were not perceived as a world power.  That did not really begin until Teddy Roosevelt and the rise of naval power/expansion of U.S. interests in the Pacific, and culminated with the ending of WWII.  Starting with WWI, we began to fight not only as a unified country, but also a unified country within a multi-national coalition, thus cementing even further our "American-ness."  Other countries have come to rely on us to act quickly and justly, so we have developed a sense of national responsibility that would not allow a split to happen.  

Finally, add the increase in immigration and mobility (via railroads, autos, and eventually aircraft) in the early 20th century, which greatly changed our national ethnic makeup from the pre-Civil war days, and you have today an America that is much more heterogenous than the days of the Unions and Confederates.  People today are more likely to identify themselves as "Latino-Americans" or "Second Generation Italians" than "Pennsylvanians" or "Virginians."  At least partly this is due to the former tending to have much more permanence than the latter.

Interestingly enough, the "War between the States" and the "War of Northern Aggression" monikers are not always just something used as tounge-in-cheek references, but they sometimes leak into the educational setting.  My 19 year old cousin is from Athens, Georgia, and when he learned about the Civil War in school, it was always referred to as "The War of Northern Aggression."  He had never even heard of the term "Civil War" until I used it in front of him.


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## arnisador (Oct 1, 2003)

Although there are no remaining living Civil War veterans, the last person collecting a widow's pension from the Civil War died around 15 years ago, I believe--a woman who was young when she married a Civil War veteran who had been very young when he fought in the war.

So, what's far is near and what's near is far!


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 2, 2003)

Personally, I think the Confederacy had the right idea.  (No, not the slave issue.... all the -rest- of the stuff they fought for.)

Recomended Reading:
Title: The Confederate Constitution of 1861: An Inquiry into American Constitutionalism
by Marshall L. Derosa
ISBN: 0826208126



> Comment: This book helps destroy the myth that the so-called Civil War was about slavery, and the Southern states were fighting to preserve it! Facts are shown in this book that the South was fighting for smaller government, and the "right" of a state to govern itself. One of the myths about the Confederacy is that they imported slavery. Article 1, Section 9, Paragraph 1 shows that the Confederate Government "outlawed' the international slave trade from its conception, the United States constitution did not! Many who wish to believe the myth of slavery, and the Confederacy will scoff at this book for it's FACTS, but than these people doubtless believe that World War 2 was about the Jewish people and the holocaust.


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## arnisador (Oct 2, 2003)

> Many who wish to believe the myth of slavery



Myth?


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 2, 2003)

I believe the authors reference is to the idea that the North fought to free the slaves.  Lincolns Enancipation Proc. only freed slaves in the south, not the north.  They remained enslaved until the wars final end with the issuance I believe of a new ammendment.

The majority of the issues the South succeeded over were their rights to govern as they wanted. I believe that their ideas on government if we were using them today, would have allowed for a smaller, more efficient government, and could possibly have prevented certain 'failings' of our own government, such as 9/11, the WMD debacle, and certain racial problems.

Was it perfect?  No.  Sadly, it also had many failings..I believe it didn't allow for ammending such as our own does.  I may be mistaken as its been a while since I looked at it.

The south wanted strong states, weak national.  The north wanted weak states, and a strong national.  That brings us to where we are today, with all 50 states bankrupt.

A detailed reading of the Confederate Constitution is required to truely compare n consider things.

Read it here:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/csa.htm


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 2, 2003)

One other thing....

Federal Income tax is a temporary tax....I believe it was supposed to only run a few years n be fazed out.  Instead, its become permanent, and a main means of government support, rather than tarrifs which in the past funded the government.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 2, 2003)

Actually...I just reread it.... light reading...I'm surprised.

I like the idea of a 1 term president...on the other hand, this does tie the government closer to the 'christian' idea.

Heres a copy for reference.
=====
Constitution of the Confederate States of America
March 11, 1861


Preamble Article I Article II Article III 
Article IV Article V Article VI Article VII 



Preamble
We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America. 

Article I
Section I. All legislative powers herein delegated shall be vested in a Congress of the Confederate States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. 

Sec. 2. (I) The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every second year by the people of the several States; and the electors in each State shall be citizens of the Confederate States, and have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State Legislature; but no person of foreign birth, not a citizen of the Confederate States, shall be allowed to vote for any officer, civil or political, State or Federal. 

(2) No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained the age of twenty-five years, and be a citizen of the Confederate States, and who shall not when elected, be an inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen. 

(3) Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several States, which may be included within this Confederacy, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three-fifths of all slaves. ,The actual enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the Confederate States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every fifty thousand, but each State shall have at least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of South Carolina shall be entitled to choose six; the State of Georgia ten; the State of Alabama nine; the State of Florida two; the State of Mississippi seven; the State of Louisiana six; and the State of Texas six. 

(4) When vacancies happen in the representation from any State the executive authority thereof shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies. 

(5) The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other officers; and shall have the sole power of impeachment; except that any judicial or other Federal officer, resident and acting solely within the limits of any State, may be impeached by a vote of two-thirds of both branches of the Legislature thereof. 

Sec. 3. (I) The Senate of the Confederate States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen for six years by the Legislature thereof, at the regular session next immediately preceding the commencement of the term of service; and each Senator shall have one vote. 

(2) Immediately after they shall be assembled, in consequence of the first election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three classes. The seats of the Senators of the first class shall be vacated at the expiration of the second year; of the second class at the expiration of the fourth year; and of the third class at the expiration of the sixth year; so that one-third may be chosen every second year; and if vacancies happen by resignation, or other wise, during the recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary appointments until the next meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such vacancies. 

(3) No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained the age of thirty years, and be a citizen of the Confederate States; and who shall not, then elected, be an inhabitant of the State for which he shall be chosen. 

(4) The Vice President of the Confederate States shall be president of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided. 

(5) The Senate shall choose their other officers; and also a president pro tempore in the absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the office of President of the Confederate states. 

(6) The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the Confederate States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside; and no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two-thirds of the members present. 

(7) Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold any office of honor, trust, or profit under the Confederate States; but the party convicted shall, nevertheless, be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment, and punishment according to law. 

Sec. 4. (I) The times, places, and manner of holding elections for Senators and Representatives shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof, subject to the provisions of this Constitution; but the Congress may, at any time, by law, make or alter such regulations, except as to the times and places of choosing Senators. 

(2) The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year; and such meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall, by law, appoint a different day. 

Sec. 5. (I) Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns, and qualifications of its own members, and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the attendance of absent members, in such manner and under such penalties as each House may provide. 

(2) Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds of the whole number, expel a member. 

(3) Each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such parts as may in their judgment require secrecy; and the yeas and nays of the members of either House, on any question, shall, at the desire of one-fifth of those present, be entered on the journal. 

(4) Neither House, during the session of Congress, shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting. 

Sec. 6. (I) The Senators and Representatives shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the Treasury of the Confederate States. They shall, in all cases, except treason, felony, and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any speech or debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other place. 'o Senator or Representative shall, during the time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority of the Confederate States, which shall have been created, or the emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time; and no person holding any office under the Confederate States shall be a member of either House during his continuance in office. But Congress may, by law, grant to the principal officer in each of the Executive Departments a seat upon the floor of either House, with the privilege of discussing any measures appertaining to his department. 

Sec. 7. (I) All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments, as on other bills. 

(2) Every bill which shall have passed both Houses, shall, before it becomes a law, be presented to the President of the Confederate States; if he approve, he shall sign it; but if not, he shall return it, with his objections, to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If, after such reconsideration, two-thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two-thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases, the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respective}y. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress, by their adjournment, prevent its return; in which case it shall not be a law. The President may approve any appropriation and disapprove any other appropriation in the same bill. In such case he shall, in signing the bill, designate the appropriations disapproved; and shall return a copy of such appropriations, with his objections, to the House in which the bill shall have originated; and the same proceedings shall then be had as in case of other bills disapproved by the President. 

(3) Every order, resolution, or vote, to which the concurrence of both Houses may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the Confederate States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him; or, being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two-thirds of both Houses, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in case of a bill. 

Sec. 8. The Congress shall have power- 

(I) To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises for revenue, necessary to pay the debts, provide for the common defense, and carry on the Government of the Confederate States; but no bounties shall be granted from the Treasury; nor shall any duties or taxes on importations from foreign nations be laid to promote or foster any branch of industry; and all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the Confederate States. 

(2) To borrow money on the credit of the Confederate States. 

(3) To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes; but neither this, nor any other clause contained in the Constitution, shall ever be construed to delegate the power to Congress to appropriate money for any internal improvement intended to facilitate commerce; except for the purpose of furnishing lights, beacons, and buoys, and other aids to navigation upon the coasts, and the improvement of harbors and the removing of obstructions in river navigation; in all which cases such duties shall be laid on the navigation facilitated thereby as may be necessary to pay the costs and expenses thereof. 

(4) To establish uniform laws of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies, throughout the Confederate States; but no law of Congress shall discharge any debt contracted before the passage of the same. 

(5) To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures. 

(6) To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the Confederate States. 

(7) To establish post offices and post routes; but the expenses of the Post Office Department, after the Ist day of March in the year of our Lord eighteen hundred and sixty-three, shall be paid out of its own revenues. 

(8) To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries. 

(9) To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court. 

(10) To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations. 

(11) To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water. 

(12) To raise and support armies; but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years. 

(13) To provide and maintain a navy. 

(14) To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces. 

(15) To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Confederate States, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions. 

(16) To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the Confederate States; reserving to the States, respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress. 

(17) To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of one or more States and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the Government of the Confederate States; and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the Legislature of the State in which the same shall be, for the . erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings; and 

(18) To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the Confederate States, or in any department or officer thereof. 

Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same. 

(2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy. 

(3) The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it. 

(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed. 

(5) No capitation or other direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration hereinbefore directed to be taken. 

(6) No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any State, except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses. 

(7) No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one State over those of another. 

(8) No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of the receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time. 

(9) Congress shall appropriate no money from the Treasury except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses, taken by yeas and nays, unless it be asked and estimated for by some one of the heads of departments and submitted to Congress by the President; or for the purpose of paying its own expenses and contingencies; or for the payment of claims against the Confederate States, the justice of which shall have been judicially declared by a tribunal for the investigation of claims against the Government, which it is hereby made the duty of Congress to establish. 

(10) All bills appropriating money shall specify in Federal currency the exact amount of each appropriation and the purposes for which it is made; and Congress shall grant no extra compensation to any public contractor, officer, agent, or servant, after such contract shall have been made or such service rendered. 

(11) No title of nobility shall be granted by the Confederate States; and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state. 

(12) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

(13) A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. 

(14) No soldier shall, in time of peace, be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner; nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. 

(15) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. 

(16) No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor be compelled, in any criminal case, to be a witness against himself; nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. 

(17) In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. 

(18) In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved; and no fact so tried by a jury shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the Confederacy, than according to the rules of common law. 

(19) Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. 

(20) Every law, or resolution having the force of law, shall relate to but one subject, and that shall be expressed in the title. 

Sec. 10. (I) No State shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, or ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts; or grant any title of nobility. 

(2) No State shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection laws; and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any State on imports, or exports, shall be for the use of the Treasury of the Confederate States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of Congress. 

(3) No State shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty on tonnage, except on seagoing vessels, for the improvement of its rivers and harbors navigated by the said vessels; but such duties shall not conflict with any treaties of the Confederate States with foreign nations; and any surplus revenue thus derived shall, after making such improvement, be paid into the common treasury. Nor shall any State keep troops or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another State, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay. But when any river divides or flows through two or more States they may enter into compacts with each other to improve the navigation thereof. 

ARTICLE II
Section I. (I) The executive power shall be vested in a President of the Confederate States of America. He and the Vice President shall hold their offices for the term of six years; but the President shall not be reeligible. The President and Vice President shall be elected as follows: 

(2) Each State shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress; but no Senator or Representative or person holding an office of trust or profit under the Confederate States shall be appointed an elector. 

(3) The electors shall meet in their respective States and vote by ballot for President and Vice President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit, sealed, to the seat of the Government of. the Confederate States, directed to the President of the Senate; the President of the Senate shall,in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates, and the votes shall then be counted; the person having the greatest number of votes for President shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers, not exceeding three, on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President the votes shall be taken by States, the representation from each State having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the States, and a majority of all the States shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President, whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the 4th day of March next following, then the Vice President shall act as President, as in case of the death, or other constitutional disability of the President. 

(4) The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice President shall be the Vice President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have a majority, then, from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. 

(5) But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice President of the Confederate States. 

(6) The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors, and the day on which they shall give their votes; which day shall be the same throughout the Confederate States. 

(7) No person except a natural-born citizen of the Confederate; States, or a citizen thereof at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, or a citizen thereof born in the United States prior to the 20th of December, 1860, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the limits of the Confederate States, as they may exist at the time of his election. 

(8) In case of the removal of the President from office, or of his death, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of said office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President; and the Congress may, by law, provide for the case of removal, death, resignation, or inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what officer shall then act as President; and such officer shall act accordingly until the disability be removed or a President shall be elected. 

(9) The President shall, at stated times, receive for his services a compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the period for which he shall have been elected; and he shall not receive within that period any other emolument from the Confederate States, or any of them. 

(10) Before he enters on the execution of his office he shall take the following oath or affirmation: 

Sec. 2. (I) The President shall be Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy of the Confederate States, and of the militia of the several States, when called into the actual service of the Confederate States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the Executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices; and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the Confederate States, except in cases of impeachment. 

(2) He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties; provided two-thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate shall appoint, ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the Confederate States whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law; but the Congress may, by law, vest the appointment of such inferior officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments. 

(3) The principal officer in each of the Executive Departments, and all persons connected with the diplomatic service, may be removed from office at the pleasure of the President. All other civil officers of the Executive Departments may be removed at any time by the President, or other appointing power, when their services are unnecessary, or for dishonesty, incapacity. inefficiency, misconduct, or neglect of duty; and when so removed, the removal shall be reported to the Senate, together with the reasons therefor. 

(4) The President shall have power to fill all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session; but no person rejected by the Senate shall be reappointed to the same office during their ensuing recess. 

Sec. 3. (I) The President shall, from time to time, give to the Congress information of the state of the Confederacy, and recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them; and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper; he shall receive ambassadors and other public ministers; he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed, and shall commission all the officers of the Confederate States. 

Sec. 4. (I) The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the Confederate States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for and conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. 

ARTICLE III
Section I. (I) The judicial power of the Confederate States shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may, from time to time, ordain and establish. The judges, both of the Supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behavior, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services a compensation which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office. 

Sec. 2. (I) The judicial power shall extend to all cases arising under this Constitution, the laws of the Confederate States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority; to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls; to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction; to controversies to which the Confederate States shall be a party; to controversies between two or more States; between a State and citizens of another State, where the State is plaintiff; between citizens claiming lands under grants of different States; and between a State or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens, or subjects; but no State shall be sued by a citizen or subject of any foreign state. 

(2) In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a State shall be a party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction both as to law and fact, with such exceptions and under such regulations as the Congress shall make. 

(3) The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury, and such trial shall be held in the State where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed. 

Sec. 3. (I) Treason against the Confederate States shall consist only in levying war against.them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. 

(2) The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason; but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture, except during the life of the person attainted. 

ARTICLE IV
Section I. (I) Full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State; and the Congress may, by general laws, prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof. 

Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired. 

(2) A person charged in any State with treason, felony, or other crime against the laws of such State, who shall flee from justice, and be found in another State, shall, on demand of the executive authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having jurisdiction of the crime. 

(3) No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs,. or to whom such service or labor may be due. 

Sec. 3. (I) Other States may be admitted into this Confederacy by a vote of two-thirds of the whole House of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate, the Senate voting by States; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other State, nor any State be formed by the junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned, as well as of the Congress. 

(2) The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make allneedful rules and regulations concerning the property of the Confederate States, including the lands thereof. 

(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States. 

(4) The Confederate States shall guarantee to every State that now is, or hereafter may become, a member of this Confederacy, a republican form of government; and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the Legislature or of the Executive when the Legislature is not in session) against domestic violence. 

ARTICLE V
Section I. (I) Upon the demand of any three States, legally assembled in their several conventions, the Congress shall summon a convention of all the States, to take into consideration such amendments to the Constitution as the said States shall concur in suggesting at the time when the said demand is made; and should any of the proposed amendments to the Constitution be agreed on by the said convention, voting by States, and the same be ratified by the Legislatures of two- thirds of the several States, or by conventions in two-thirds thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the general convention, they shall thenceforward form a part of this Constitution. But no State shall, without its consent, be deprived of its equal representation in the Senate. 

ARTICLE VI
I. The Government established by this Constitution is the successor of the Provisional Government of the Confederate States of America, and all the laws passed by the latter shall continue in force until the same shall be repealed or modified; and all the officers appointed by the same shall remain in office until their successors are appointed and qualified, or the offices abolished. 

2. All debts contracted and engagements entered into before the adoption of this Constitution shall be as valid against the Confederate States under this Constitution, as under the Provisional Government. 

3. This Constitution, and the laws of the Confederate States made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the Confederate States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding. 

4. The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the Confederate States and of the several States, shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the Confederate States. 

5. The enumeration, in the Constitution, of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people of the several States. 

6. The powers not delegated to the Confederate States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people thereof. 

ARTICLE VII
I. The ratification of the conventions of five States shall be sufficient for the establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the same. 

2. When five States shall have ratified this Constitution, in the manner before specified, the Congress under the Provisional Constitution shall prescribe the time for holding the election of President and Vice President; and for the meeting of the Electoral College; and for counting the votes, and inaugurating the President. They shall, also, prescribe the time for holding the first election of members of Congress under this Constitution, and the time for assembling the same. Until the assembling of such Congress, the Congress under the Provisional Constitution shall continue to exercise the legislative powers granted them; not extending beyond the time limited by the Constitution of the Provisional Government. 

Adopted unanimously by the Congress of the Confederate States of South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, sitting in convention at the capitol, the city of Montgomery, Ala., on the eleventh day of March, in the year eighteen hundred and Sixty-one. 

HOWELL COBB, President of the Congress. 

South Carolina: R. Barnwell Rhett, C. G. Memminger, Wm. Porcher Miles, James Chesnut, Jr., R. W. Barnwell, William W. Boyce, Lawrence M. Keitt, T. J. Withers. 

Georgia: Francis S. Bartow, Martin J. Crawford, Benjamin H. Hill, Thos. R. R. Cobb. 

Florida: Jackson Morton, J. Patton Anderson, Jas. B. Owens. 

Alabama: Richard W. Walker, Robt. H. Smith, Colin J. McRae, William P. Chilton, Stephen F. Hale, David P. Lewis, Tho. Fearn, Jno. Gill Shorter, J. L. M. Curry. 

Mississippi: Alex. M. Clayton, James T. Harrison, William S. Barry, W. S. Wilson, Walker Brooke, W. P. Harris, J. A. P. Campbell. 

Louisiana: Alex. de Clouet, C. M. Conrad, Duncan F. Kenner, Henry Marshall. 

Texas: John Hemphill, Thomas N. Waul, John H. Reagan, Williamson S. Oldham, Louis T. Wigfall, John Gregg, William Beck Ochiltree.


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## OULobo (Oct 2, 2003)

I think it is fairly well accepted that the Am. Civil War was not about slavery. That was just the sugar with the medicine. It was a way to make the war popular with people who were not interested in the economic reasons that were the main reason for the war, and a way to later justifiy the carnage after the fact, much like, as mentioned, the Holocaust of WWII. If I am not mistaken most soldiers fighting in WWII had no idea the Holocaust was going on, but it made it much easier to justifiy the war after it was over. 

In the case of the Am. Civil War though I still have to agree with the North. I do believe in the soveriegnty of the federal government over the states and I do believe in the vision of Lincoln. This isn't grade school popular history speaking, but it is a personal opinion, that the current "greatness' of this country, and the valued quality of life we enjoy now would not have been possible without the North's victory. 

Secondly I think that the war came down to a basic level of one of man's most dangerous nemesi, pride. The idea that an urban fop who couldn't even work a plow telling a hard working southerner what he was allowed to do was unacceptable to the South, and the idea of a barefoot uneducated hick telling a sophisticated and affluent urban gentleman that he "ain't gonna take it" was unacceptable to the North. This sin soaked the earth with blood of southern and northern brother alike.

I have spent many days roaming old battlefields of the Am. Civil War on vacations and road trips, and I guess it will always be the most miserable war to me as it was uneeded and unwanted by both sides. I don't remember ever reading a letter from Johnny Reb or John Yank that said they were infavor of the war, just that they wanted to go home. 

On a separate note, what is everyone's take on the lowering of the stars and bars over Georgia on racial grounds.


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## pknox (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *On a separate note, what is everyone's take on the lowering of the stars and bars over Georgia on racial grounds. *



While I can see why on principle people would want to do such a thing (reminds us of slavery and a time when we oppressed our own people), I would have to say keep the flag up, for two reasons:

1. If you are going to remove a flag simply because a people under it (either domestic or foreign) were oppressed, you soon will start an interseting precedent, and you won't have any flags left.  We'll probably have to remove the stars and stripes as well - after all, doesn't that flag represent a nation that wrongfully interred Japanese-Americans during WWII, and also performed a witch hunt to out communists and socialists soon thereafter?

2. If you remove it, then you will have erased a potent memory of slavery.  Slavery was distasteful and morally wrong.  However, if you remove all references to it, people will soon not have to think about it, and it will be a forgotten part of our history.  Remember that those who forget history are often the ones who end up repeating it.  I, for one, want to make sure future generations know about slavery and how it happened -- then they will be more likely to be able to prevent it happening again.  If you leave it up, it is a living history lesson, making those who see it think about it.


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## Elfan (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *One other thing....
> 
> Federal Income tax is a temporary tax....I believe it was supposed to only run a few years n be fazed out.  Instead, its become permanent, and a main means of government support, rather than tarrifs which in the past funded the government. *



It was phased out (or rather declared unconstiutional in 1895), and then reinstated with the 16th amendment.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf/con027.pdf





> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I believe the authors reference is to the idea that the North fought to free the slaves.  Lincolns Enancipation Proc. only freed slaves in the south, not the north.  They remained enslaved until the wars final end with the issuance I believe of a new ammendment.
> *



I feel compelled to point out that since Lincoln had no actuall authority in the South (them being in rebellion and such) the Emancipation Proc. did not free a single slave.  

And yes it was the 13th amendment that finally outlawed "slavery... [and] involentary servitiude."


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## OULobo (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *I feel compelled to point out that since Lincoln had no actuall authority in the South (them being in rebellion and such) the Emancipation Proc. did not free a single slave.  *



I disagree, in a sense that is what the war was about, federal authority. The federal government made a proclamation under the assumption that the union was still whole and the southern states were included. Now just because someone or some group decides that they are autonomous doesn't neccessarily make it so. Ask the Basques, the Zapatistas, the Moros, Texans, ect. As history seems to show, sovereignty is earned, soemtimes by diplomacy, usually by violence. Unfortunatly for the South, they lost their bid. The trick seems to be enforcing your proclamations and laws. Again in some ways the North went to war to enforce these laws, and by winning succeeded in enforcing said laws and proclamations. I know it sounds like might makes right, because essentially that's what it is.


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 2, 2003)

Welllp, as we used to say back in Maryland in '62, save your Dixie Cups, the South shall rise again.

Sorry, folks, and sure there were other causes. But it's utterly ridiculous to argue that the Civil War ("War of Northern Aggression," my foot, but I can see why the name came about, what with the Union attacking the perceful Confederacy at Fort Sumter...wait a minute...) had nothing to do with slavery.

Among the causes of the War were: 
1) political arguments over whether new states would be slave or free;
2) skirmishes in Kansas, same issue;
3) John Brown
4) "Uncle Tom's Cabin."

And by the way, slavery was a big reason the South never got any real European support.

If the South didn't think that slavery was all that big an issue, why'd they work so hard to write slavery into their Constitution? They said their right to own slaves was a big thing; the North said it was a big thing. Read their letters, their newspapers, lkistern to songs like, "Battle Hymn of the Republic"--hell, watch the Ken Burns documentary. Better still, go back and read Bruce Catton.

As for the "States' rights," claptrap, well, I was around in the '60s, when every bonehead like Lester Maddox was standin' in the door of the Pickrick Restaurant and explicitly stating that segregation was their great State's right. Over and over and over and over again, from Jim Crow and lynchings right through to today, these creeps have been using the State's Rights argument. Why would anybody want to associate themselves with it?

The Stars and Bars? Apparently, it was a Confederate battle flag never used till after 1863 or so. A....Confederate....battle....flag, flown as a banner by people who damn sure were fighting to support their right to have slaves. But gee, no problem there...and after all, if you think about your own experience, there are lots of lots of good people and intellectuals, folks you'd like to have move in next door, who fly the Stars and Bars proudly...

Sure, there were other motives. Sure, Emancipation was a big political ploy. Sure, lots of Northern fatcats got rich off the war...and sure, it was a fight between two competing economic systems. But this myth-making--and the associated myths about the saintly Marse Lee and the gentlemanly Stonewall Jackson--wasn't that the Army that shot black prisoners out of hand?


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## OULobo (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *wasn't that the Army that shot black prisoners out of hand? *



Both armies had few quams about shooting any soldier or prisoner or even civilian that "got out of hand". Military justice had more teeth then, than it even has now. 

I don't hold that the Am. Civil War wasn't about  slavery, but I still maintain that the only reason slavery was an issue is because it was seen as an economic neccessity in the South and because it was a politically popular move. The farms were producing at the levels they were because there were slaves to work them. This is the other great sin of the war, greed. The farmers wanted to keep the slaves to maintain the high levels of production that the farms could only continue if they were given slave labor. Obviously it was easier and cheaper than paid labor. The North never faced the same problem because the already instated working class would never allow the slave to be substituted for the paid worker. Therefore the entire economy of the South was faceted on slave labor, where the North's was not. 

Reading the letters and works of the famous figures of the time only give you a feel for what they wanted to be shown in the limelight. This is like saying that the plays, the movies, television and popular books of today are deep insight into the everyday opinions and thoughts of the average American. I see alot of shows about spys, but I never met one; I see alot of movies about superheros;,but I don't believe they exist; I read alot about celebrety relationships, but I wouldn't call them the norm.  The letters from the battlefield don't include spats about the evils of slavery or the moral justice of the freeing slaves, they talk essentially of having someone else's morals pushed on to them and being ruled by laws instated by, what was basically seen by them, as an absentee landlord. 

The Confederate flag is a symbol of an army that was not comprised in the majority of slave owners or even slave owner supporters. The general body of the Confederate army was one of the average southern farmer who couldn't afford a slave. Many were so uneducated that they fought out of pride or because someone gave them a rifle and told them they had to fight. People died and were persecuted with more malice in the Am. Rev, War than occured in the Am. Civil War, but we don't piss and moan whenever we see the Union Jack flying. 

The only thing I'll say on the states rights comment is that it has been a reoccuring issue in this country since its birthing day and there are many issues involved in it that don't have much to do with slavery, segregation or any racial issue. Other than that I am pretty pro-federal.


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 2, 2003)

Uh....first off, I'm talking about shooting, en masse, prisoners of war. Which the South did several times, if they were black...if memory serves, several units had it as an established policy.

Second off, again try catton. Burns, who imitated him shamelessly, features the words, songs, etc., of ordinary soldiers...

Of course, the Civil War as far as I'm concerned was a head-to-head between old-fashioned slavery and new-fangled wage slavery...but that's just me.


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## pknox (Oct 2, 2003)

rmcrobertson:

Doing a Google search for Catton, I've been able to find:

_The Civil War_
_Mr. Lincoln's Army_ (I've also seen it listed as _Mr. Lincoln's War_, not sure if it is in fact the same book)
_Glory Road_
_A Stillness at Appomattox_

I believe the last three are also referred to as the _The Army of the Potomac_ trilogy.

Is this the complete list?  If not, could you please post a list of any of Catton's relevant titles I may have missed?  Sounds like they could be an interesting source to check out.


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## arnisador (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I believe the authors reference is to the idea that the North fought to free the slaves. *



Ah, OK, I get it--the simplistic belief that the Civil War was entirely about the issue of slavery. . Indeed, the situation was considerably more complex than that. I do believe that many _indivduals_ volunteered for that reason, but the Secession was an affront and an economic danger to the other States.



> *
> The south wanted strong states, weak national.  The north wanted weak states, and a strong national. *



Yes, a fair summary of the situation!


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## arnisador (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I disagree, in a sense that is what the war was about, federal authority. The federal government made a proclamation under the assumption that the union was still whole and the southern states were included. Now just because someone or some group decides that they are autonomous doesn't neccessarily make it so. Ask the Basques, the Zapatistas, the Moros, Texans, ect. As history seems to show, sovereignty is earned, soemtimes by diplomacy, usually by violence. Unfortunatly for the South, they lost their bid. The trick seems to be enforcing your proclamations and laws. Again in some ways the North went to war to enforce these laws, and by winning succeeded in enforcing said laws and proclamations. I know it sounds like might makes right, because essentially that's what it is. *



It sounds like the winners write the history, which is the case. I agree--he was stating that he didn't recognize the Secession and so his orders still applied to the Southern States.

We have Separatists today who protest that our laws can't be used to arrest and prosecute them. They get arrested and prosecuted.


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## arnisador (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Sorry, folks, and sure there were other causes. But it's utterly ridiculous to argue that the Civil War ("War of Northern Aggression," my foot, but I can see why the name came about, what with the Union attacking the perceful Confederacy at Fort Sumter...wait a minute...) had nothing to do with slavery.
> 
> Among the causes of the War were:
> ...



Wait--were those causes of the War, or causes of the Secession? The War itself was due to the Northern States' decision not to recognize the Southern States' right to secede. This is not to say that I would blame the North for the War, but rather that I think we should make a distinction between what made the Southern States want to secede and what made the Northern States decide that that wasn't OK.

For the latter, slavery was an issue but not the whole or even necessarily the biggest issue. For both, the questionof States' rights was a big issue.


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## OULobo (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *We have Separatists today who protest that our laws can't be used to arrest and prosecute them. They get arrested and prosecuted. *



That's a great comment. :rofl:


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 3, 2003)

Yeah, those are pretty much the Catton books I know. There's one called something like, "The Gathering Storm," and "The Civil War," is, if memory serves, a one-volume condensed version.

When I was a kid, my Scout troop went to Gettysburg a lot, and I fished on Little Antietam and Antietam creeks. In Church camp, we stayed outside Harper's Ferry...

Scouting and church camp have mostly worn off, and now as a bit of a Commie rat, I certain see that the War was about economic systems clashing. But I really dislike the glorification of Lee and the rest. If they'd had real guts and real brains, they'd have done something hard--stood up and told the home folks they were wrong, and refused to support a war whomped up by a group of aristocrats, bankers, and yahoos.

Want a real hero? I vote for Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain...but then, he was kinda an English teacher...


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## pknox (Oct 3, 2003)

I went to Gettsyburg in college, and it was pretty amazing.  I definitely was impressed by the wall being a lot lower than I thought it would be...I could almost imagine troops crouching so as to stay as much behind it as possible when firing.  I was also shown pictures of how medical procedures were done on the battlefield, and got to tour some of the buildings were the medical operations were performed.  Pretty gruesome stuff - things like piles of arms outside of barns being used for limb replacement.  Quite a few people evidently went home with two left arms or a black and a white one.  I also hadn't realize that there were hills around the battlefield, and had never really thought how that would effect strategy until I saw it.  I would love to check out Antietam and Harper's Ferry one day.  I'd also like to do Chancellorsville and Chickamauga if I ever get a chance.  I guess I'll put them on my list.


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## OULobo (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *But I really dislike the glorification of Lee and the rest. If they'd had real guts and real brains, they'd have done something hard--stood up and told the home folks they were wrong, and refused to support a war whomped up by a group of aristocrats, bankers, and yahoos.
> *



Amen. Lee was the consumate gentleman, but despite his convictions against slavery, continued to fight the North. I can partially forgive him because he always stated that he went to war with a heavy heart and only went to protect his home, but there is a point where things need to be given priority. Lee is know as one of, if not the, best, strategist in the war, almost winning despite fewer resources and men, but at the moment of truth he stumbled and made some of the most lame tactical combat decisions in the war.


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## pknox (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *but at the moment of truth he stumbled and made some of the most lame tactical combat decisions in the war. *



A la Pickett's Charge.  I'm really not sure what else he could have done, though.  If he hadn't taken the reins, his brethren surely would be going off to slaughter.  I believe that he knew in his heart that even with him at the helm it was going to be difficult, but without him, hopeless.  He just tried to do the best he could with what he had.  I think he also realized that the primary issue was not slavery (that was just something that was easier to use as an explanation) but instead economic and political sovereignty, which he most likely would have supported, considering his economic position as a relatively wealthy landholder.


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## Andi (Oct 4, 2003)

Just reading through the Confederate constitution.



> Article I, Sec 2 (2) No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained the age of twenty-five years, and be a citizen of the Confederate States, and who shall not when elected, be an inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.





> Sec 3 (3) No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained the age of thirty years, and be a citizen of the Confederate States; and who shall not, then elected, be an inhabitant of the State for which he shall be chosen.





> Article II Sec 1 (3) The electors shall meet in their respective States and vote by ballot for President and Vice President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves;



This caught my eye, particularly the bit that says you can't live in the same state you represent. What's that all about? Was it something peculiar to the South or is it still in the US constitution? A one-go 6 year term as president sounds good though. Wish we had that here! Come in, Mr Blair, your time is up.



> Originally posted by rmcrobertson
> Sorry, folks, and sure there were other causes. But it's utterly ridiculous to argue that the Civil War ("War of Northern Aggression," my foot, but I can see why the name came about, what with the Union attacking the perceful Confederacy at Fort Sumter...wait a minute...) had nothing to do with slavery.
> 
> Among the causes of the War were:
> ...



Pardon my ignorance. John Brown? Uncle Tom's Cabin?? What's that mean? Any useful links you could throw at me or an explanation would be great.


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## arnisador (Oct 4, 2003)

An abolitionist, best known for the raid on Harpers Ferry:
http://www.wvculture.org/history/jnobrown.html

Uncle Tom's Cabin is an anti-slavery novel by Harriet Beecher Stowe:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/STOWE/stowe.html


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## Andi (Oct 6, 2003)

Cheers for that mate.


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