# Shito-ry



## Michael89 (Feb 10, 2014)

So my Grandmaster from Taekwondo class tonight mentioned that he took a *Shito Ryu *during his time in Tokyo. I was wondering what is different shito Ryu between Shotokan Karate?


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## Carol (Feb 10, 2014)

Great question, although I don't know the answer.

Unfortunately our profanity filter occasionally trips over the name of that particular style. style, which is why you see the asterisks.  I just put in a message to the mods, we'll see if we can fix it so Shito-ryu is displayed properly


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2014)

You could say Cheeto-Ryu, but then you may have problems with Frito-Lay.


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## Michael89 (Feb 10, 2014)

thanks


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## dancingalone (Feb 11, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> So my Grandmaster from Taekwondo class tonight mentioned that he took a *Shito Ryu *during his time in Tokyo. I was wondering what is different shito Ryu between Shotokan Karate?



Shito-ryu is a blend of both the Shuri-te and Naha-te methods.  The founder Mabuni Kenwa studied with both Itosu and Higaonna, two of Okinawan karate's acknowledged greats/legends.  It is an elegant looking style with many kata available to practice as you might imagine from its heritage.

In general, Shotokan 'looks' more powerful than Shito-ryu while the latter 'looks' more fluid and speedier.  The kata in Shito-ryu are closer to the Shorin-ryu sources so you have the front kicks in the Pinan kata rather than sidekicks as in the Shotokan Heian equivalents.  Also, Shito-ryu people usually practice some kobudo as well, while it is not as common with Shotokan people.

Any specific questions?  While I am not Shito-ryu myself, I have spent some time with friends who are seriously involved in the style (they were involved with Julius Thiry's group for many years).


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## Makalakumu (Feb 11, 2014)

Shito Ryu has a lot of kata. They definitely prefer breadth over depth.

http://www.shito-ryu.eu/shito-ryu-kata-list/

With over 49 kata, I think this is the system with the most. I can't think of a karate system that practices more. That said, I think you can see what is emphasized. If you like to learn and practice the solo kata, this system is for you.


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## Michael89 (Feb 11, 2014)

Makalakumu said:


> Shito Ryu has a lot of kata. They definitely prefer breadth over depth.
> 
> http://www.shito-ryu.eu/shito-ryu-kata-list/
> 
> With over 49 kata, I think this is the system with the most. I can't think of a karate system that practices more. That said, I think you can see what is emphasized. If you like to learn and practice the solo kata, this system is for you.




although I take Taekwondo class. I learned basic forms as well Naihanchi Shodan (under Korean word) and Bo staff.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 12, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> So my Grandmaster from Taekwondo class tonight mentioned that he took a *Shito Ryu *during his time in Tokyo. I was wondering what is different shito Ryu between Shotokan Karate?



Here is a tidbit from the IKSDA lineage page:



> After Chun, Sang Sup went missing in North Korea, The Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu underwent a name change to the Jidokwan headed by YOON, Kwe Byung and LEE Chong Woo until 1967.  LEE Chong Woo was the second student of Chun, Sang Sup learning Shotokan Karate.  *YOON, Kwe Byung was a Master of Shudokan Karate holding a 7th Dan under Kanken Toyama Sensei and was also a student of Shito Ryu Karate under Mabun Kenwa Sensei.  While in Tokyo, YOON, Kwe Byung was Chief Instructor of the Han Mu Kwan.*  YOON, Kwe Byung was one of the founding members of the _Korea Kong Soo Do Association_ which was formed during the Korean War.



Perhaps it is possible that your GM trained at this dojo in Tokyo with or under YOON, Kwe, Byung?  Might be interesting to ask him.  Keep in mind that Korean martial history is nebulous at best and one has to take most everything with a grain of salt.


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## Michael89 (Feb 12, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Here is a tidbit from the IKSDA lineage page:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it is possible that your GM trained at this dojo in Tokyo with or under YOON, Kwe, Byung?  Might be interesting to ask him.  Keep in mind that Korean martial history is nebulous at best and one has to take most everything with a grain of salt.



I look up on website. He did trained under Dr. Kye Byoung Yoon. He then studied one year in Japan and graduated in 1967. While in Japan, he trained at the Yo-Yo-Ki Karate School in Tokyo for one year.  Now, I have interesting in what you have to say. : )


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## Michael89 (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> I look up on website. He did trained under Dr. Kye Byoung Yoon. He then studied one year in Japan and graduated in 1967. While in Japan, he trained at the Yo-Yo-Ki Karate School in Tokyo for one year.  Now, I have interesting in what you have to say. : )




I want to know more about Dr. Kye Byoung Yoon.


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## twendkata71 (Feb 15, 2014)

Makalakumu said:


> Shito Ryu has a lot of kata. They definitely prefer breadth over depth.
> 
> http://www.shito-ryu.eu/shito-ryu-kata-list/
> 
> With over 49 kata, I think this is the system with the most. I can't think of a karate system that practices more. That said, I think you can see what is emphasized. If you like to learn and practice the solo kata, this system is for you.



Many factions of Shito ryu karate do have 60 kata. Some kata in shito ryu have been adopted from other styles. For instance Hayashi Ha Shito ryu and other factions adopted most of the Ryuei ryu kata like, Anan,pachu,Paiku,etc. 
Mabuni O'sensei was a kata collector. attempting to learn as many kata as he could to increase his knowledge of karate.
In comparison to Shotokan. Shito ryu uses shorter stances in a lot of it's kata. Shotokan uses deep stances and more dynamic motion. Shito ryu uses both circular and linear blocking. Shotokan focuses more on linear blocking. 
Mabuni was actually Funakoshi's senior in terms of karate do training. They were friends and went to mainland Japan around the same time to spread karate.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2014)

I can see the value of collecting kata if you know how to break down a few thoroughly. I wonder how many Shito Ryu dojos do this? With 60 kata, it has to be difficult to do much beyond practice kata.


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## Michael89 (Feb 16, 2014)

come to think of it. I think my grandmaster borrowed some of idea from Shito-Ryu. we worked on alot of poomses and breaking down forms as warm up training.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 17, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> I want to know more about Dr. Kye Byoung Yoon.



http://www.lacancha.com/gwebyungyoon.html

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Yoon-Byung/741689580

Take it all with a grain of salt.


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## Michael89 (Feb 17, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> http://www.lacancha.com/gwebyungyoon.html
> 
> http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Yoon-Byung/741689580
> 
> Take it all with a grain of salt.




Thanks. it is always good to know where your martial arts lineage comes from. : )


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## twendkata71 (Mar 1, 2014)

I have learned about 43 kata and it has taken me 33 years to break down half of what is in all of the kata.  Lots more to learn. 






Makalakumu said:


> I can see the value of collecting kata if you know how to break down a few thoroughly. I wonder how many Shito Ryu dojos do this? With 60 kata, it has to be difficult to do much beyond practice kata.


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## reeskm (May 31, 2014)

***Edited to ad more info**
I too am looking for as much info as possible about Yoon, Kwei Byung.

I'm Moo Duk Kwan and deeply interested in reasearching this little-known but hugely influential Korean Karate master.

I believe he is a huge figure that has never really been written about on the internet, but so far have pieced together the following:

- As a young boy or teenager, was sent by his family for high school or junior high to Japan during the occupation times. There, he lived in Osaka. He started learning from Mabuni Kenwa and trained in Shito-Ryu style
- After a while he was old enough for university, and then studied Agriculture at Tokyo Central University. There, he continued his Karate studies under Kanken Toyama of the legendary ShudoKan in the Meguro district of Tokyo
- Somehow, he learned Chuan Fa in Manchuria. However, this story might be not true as he is often confused with Yoon, Byung-In as they were related and apparently close like brothers
- Helped teach at the YMCA Kwon Bop Bu with Chang Sang Sup and Yoon Byung-In
- Shows up in tons of early photos relating to the YMCA Kwon Bop-bu, with Chung Sang Sup and Yoon Byung-In
- Seems to have been really close the Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan
- He, along with Hwang Kee split from the KTA - Korean Taekwondo Association (Government forced unification movement in 1962 in Korea). They published a joint statement/letter resigning as members of the KTA stating that the goals of the TKD unification process were "contrary to the ideals and ideology of the martial arts"!
- He has died recently, but I am unable to find any orbituary or biography information about him since 1970
- He led many teams of Tang Soo Do (AKA Korean Karate) competitors in early WUKO events in Asia, along with Hwang Kee, H.C. Hwang, C.S. Kim and many other well known Masters in the history books and living today
- Was present at the 1970 WUKO tournament in Tokyo when the Shotokan famously had their spat and split into factions
- Founded the Kanbukan dojo in 1940 in Tokyo, Japan, which was known as the "Korean Martial Hall" - a place where tons of famous martial artists lik Mas Oyama and Goju-ryu students would come to compete in free sparring (Jayu-dae ryun in Kr or Jiyu-kumite in JP)
- The Kanbukan dojo changed it's name to the Renbukan after Yoon left Japan in 1949, and then changed it to the Renbukai. This is now an officially recognized and little known style of Japanese Karate by WKF and other Japanese organizations
- pioneered or popularized the use of bogu (kendo) armor in competition matches because he felt that if it wasn't full contact, it wasn't real enough! This was before Jhoon Rhee invented his foam padding. In fact, I think Jhoon Rhee was JidoKwan.
- went back home to Korea in 1949 and became the 1st president of the Jido Kwan
- Based on his experience with the founding of the Kanbukan, known for it's full contact style teaching methods, was probably responsible for the Jidokwan's legacy of also producing full-contact and tournament winning fighters in Korea
- Seems to have gone back to Japan many times. He may have been living there during the Korean war period, and also in the 70s as well.
- Was apparently a very influential and early founding member or official in the Mindan (the zainichi S. Korean people's (expat's) association in Japan)
- may have contributed greatly to the Korean Karate Federation in Busan before his recent death, and remained a member of the WKF (WUKO successor)
- Was a shihan of Kanken Toyama sensei
- Had may aliases. Apparently, nobody could seem to transliterate his name correctly
- Wrote books on Karate, in Japanese and Korean. One book was about using the bo/bong and he created his own bong forms
- Seems to have been completely dissapeared off the face of the earth. Virtually the same brief story is rehashed throughout the internet, and long stories, anecdotes or bios about his life are impossible to find.
- Other spellings of his last name in English: Yun, Yoon, Yung, Byung, Byun
- Other spellings of his given names: Gekka, In Hei, Yoon Kwe, Yun Kwei, etc

According to my Kwan Jang (Carl C. Tate, Jr.) he might have been living in the USA recently. KJN Tate belives he heard he was living in Maryland, but couldn't remember any other details. Can anybody else confirm this?

I think Yoon Kwei-Byung was probably the most underrated and little known Master out of all the Korean masters with links to Japan and the early founding of Korean Martial arts post-WW2.


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## MAist25 (May 31, 2014)

I would love to learn more about Yoon Kwei-Bung as well. Nobody ever seems to talk about him but his contributions to Taekwondo seem to be huge.


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## reeskm (Jun 2, 2014)

Do any Shito-ryu stylists have access to lineage charts or old pictures circa 1930 who would be able to find a "Gekka Yun" in a photograph? He would only have been a young high school student at the time. The key would be that he was a zainichi Korean, so anybody with in depth knowledge of Mabuni Kenwa's students would be able to confirm his.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 2, 2014)

reeskm said:


> ***Edited to ad more info**
> I too am looking for as much info as possible about Yoon, Kwei Byung.
> 
> >snip<
> ...



Very interesting. I have never heard these two gentlemen were related (and Korea is notorious for having a paucity of surnames so it can be hard to be sure who exactly is related to whom). Do you have a source for this information about them being related?



> - pioneered or popularized the use of bogu (kendo) armor in competition matches because he felt that if it wasn't full contact, it wasn't real enough! This was before Jhoon Rhee invented his foam padding. In fact, I think Jhoon Rhee was JidoKwan.



Jhoon Rhee was actually a member of the Chung Do Kwan before founding his own style of Taekwon-Do. He may well still be considered a member of the Chung Do Kwan, despite this, and was promoted to 10th dan in Chung Do Kwan by Lee, Won Kuk (Chung Do Kwan founder) in 1998.



> I think Yoon Kwei-Byung was probably the most underrated and little known Master out of all the Korean masters with links to Japan and the early founding of Korean Martial arts post-WW2.



He's certainly one of them. Hong Jong Pyo is another pretty obscure one. Many of the Korean masters involved in the early days of the Kwans aren't well known in the west, sadly.

Pax,

Chris


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## reeskm (Jun 5, 2014)

chrispillertkd said:


> Very interesting. I have never heard these two gentlemen were related (and Korea is notorious for having a paucity of surnames so it can be hard to be sure who exactly is related to whom). Do you have a source for this information about them being related?


I will try and find the source. I am currently trying to sort out what is right and what is wrong. Information is sketchy at this point. Any correction is welcome!




chrispillertkd said:


> Jhoon Rhee was actually a member of the Chung Do Kwan before founding his own style of Taekwon-Do. He may well still be considered a member of the Chung Do Kwan, despite this, and was promoted to 10th dan in Chung Do Kwan by Lee, Won Kuk (Chung Do Kwan founder) in 1998.



Yes, I stand corrected. I have found another source to verify this:
Taekwondo Forum ? View topic - Chung Do Kwan & Won Kuk Lee by Kyo Yoon Lee
See "Graduates of the Chung Do Kwan were" #17 - Jhoon Rhee

Thanks for your help so far Chris.


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## Ray B (Jun 6, 2014)

While Shito-ryu officially has 40+ kata in their syllabus, most practitioners practice much less.
Most often they are taught the Itosu katas up through Shodan, then other katas are taught to
supplement. How they are determined I don't really know. Shito-ryu is primarily considered
Okinawan while Shotokan is thought of as Japanese.


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## jorgemp (Jun 8, 2014)

Original shotokan was similar to shito ryu. Gichin Funakoshi, the founder, didn´t use the actual strong and long stances and high explosive kicks.








He also used open hand strikes (similar to kung fu techniques). Actual emphasis on fist strikes is modern.








Original shotokan was similar to shito ryu.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 9, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> So my Grandmaster from Taekwondo class tonight mentioned that he took a *Shito Ryu *during his time in Tokyo. I was wondering what is different shito Ryu between Shotokan Karate?



Shito Ryu is the main style I train in. As far as the differences are concerned I can tell you this. Shotokan was founded by Funakoshi and Shito was founded by Mabuni. The two men were friends and the styles are quite similar except Shito Ryu tends to be smoother. For instance, in the step over reverse punch, where you take a step forward and throw a punch, in Shito Ryu you take a tiny step with your front foot before stepping over with your rear foot. In Shotokan you don't take take that tiny step with the front foot before stepping over. So that is basically how the styles differ, Shito Ryu tends to be smoother and some of their techniques are a little more complicated, but aside from that the styles are very similar.


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## Blade~ (Jun 12, 2014)

When I studied Kyokushin one of they guys in class was also taking Shito-ryu the same time. He showed us a couple of beginner Katas and what I could see it had more technical variety such as using elbows frequently. You don't see much of that in other traditional Karate styles.


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## reeskm (Jun 17, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> I look up on website. He did trained under Dr. Kye Byoung Yoon. He then studied one year in Japan and graduated in 1967. While in Japan, he trained at the Yo-Yo-Ki Karate School in Tokyo for one year.  Now, I have interesting in what you have to say. : )



Michael89,
would you be so kind to post the website link you mention?

Yo-Yo-Ki is most definitely Yoyogi in current English romanization. Do you know what is the name of this Yoyogi dojo?
There are probably more than one, but this one in the 1960's is quite famous:
Yoyogi dMjM
[Yoyogi Shurenkai Karate D&#333;j&#333;]


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## reeskm (Jun 17, 2014)

Blade~ said:


> When I studied Kyokushin one of they guys in class was also taking Shito-ryu the same time. He showed us a couple of beginner Katas and what I could see it had more technical variety such as using elbows frequently. You don't see much of that in other traditional Karate styles.



I do what I consider "traditional" Korean Karate - Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do.
Unlike the current Soo Bahk Do MDK organization, my teacher was a staunch traditionalist. Although the newer "soft" techniques of SBD are still present, it's still a hard art for the most part.

Punches are most definitely emphasized for beginner and intermediate gup (kyu) ranks from 10 white to 4 green-belt in our system.

After that the door blows wide open. We start teaching spear hand, knife hand, elbows of all kinds, knees, basic sweeps throws and joint locks. Dan levels start learning and applying bone breaks (like in the recent Black Belt mag C.S. Kim cover feature and videos on their website), chicken wrist, one and two finger eye gouges, and one knuckle punches. I've probably forgotten something, but that's off the top of my head.

One curious thing I've never been able to figure out:
Some say Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do has it's origins in the Shotokan style. However, our chun-bee (ready position/stance) has our hands in fists and curled in a moon shape and one knife hand apart, and the only Japanese Karate style I can find that does this in a similar way is Shito-ryu. I've never been able to figure this one out... Did Shotokan change their ready stance in the 1950s? (do you call it "yame" or "yoi"?)
Did Shitoryu change it?


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## MAist25 (Jun 17, 2014)

> Some say Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do has it's origins in the Shotokan style. However, our chun-bee (ready position/stance) has our hands in fists and curled in a moon shape and one knife hand apart, and the only Japanese Karate style I can find that does this in a similar way is Shito-ryu.



Do you have a picture or a reference so we can see what your ready stance actually looks like?


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## reeskm (Jun 18, 2014)

This pic represents a variation, which is good for reference.

The gentleman in the middle displays the best form of MDK TSD choon-bee chase ready stance, although straight wrists and slightly wider apart arms are common but slightly incorrect.
http://www.brewflightventures.com/_photos/gallery1/images/pic_4.jpg


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## Michael89 (Jun 18, 2014)

Well, I feel very educated on Shito-Ryu now. This been very interesting for me to read.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 12, 2018)

Makalakumu said:


> Shito Ryu has a lot of kata. They definitely prefer breadth over depth.
> 
> http://www.shito-ryu.eu/shito-ryu-kata-list/
> 
> With over 49 kata, I think this is the system with the most. I can't think of a karate system that practices more. That said, I think you can see what is emphasized. If you like to learn and practice the solo kata, this system is for you.



There are like active 120 kata in our tradition.
We have an insane amount of the Okinawan Kata (Tomarite, Nahate, Shurite) from Kanken Toyama O'Sensei, 
Then We have some of the Taolu forms that He taught from his three systems of Chinese _quán fǎ_ that are preserved, 

Then we have the 7 Kokyu kata that Kanken Toyama
created.

then the Okinawan Kobudo forms, 

and then the forms that former 10° Hanshi Ichikawa Isao created, and a few that his brother Current 10° Hanshi Ichikawa Nobuo has created.

Needless to say, no students of Hanshi that I know have all the Kata.

My Shihan that I train under only knows 80 or so.

And then there are many that have been dropped altogether, do to redundancy... the kata only teaches stuff that is found in other Kata.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 29, 2018)

Michael89 said:


> So my Grandmaster from Taekwondo class tonight mentioned that he took a *Shito Ryu *during his time in Tokyo. I was wondering what is different shito Ryu between Shotokan Karate?


They're quite similar although Shito-Ryu is smoother. For instance, one of the basic techniques in Shotokan is a step over reverse punch from the front stance where you take a step forward with your rear foot so it becomes your front foot while at the same time throwing a reverse punch with the hand that's on the same side as the foot stepping forward. Shito-Ryu has that same technique with an added step. Before you step over with your rear foot you take a small step with your front foot. So that is one example of how the Shito-Ryu style is smoother.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 29, 2018)

Carol said:


> Great question, although I don't know the answer.
> 
> Unfortunately our profanity filter occasionally trips over the name of that particular style. style, which is why you see the asterisks.  I just put in a message to the mods, we'll see if we can fix it so Shito-ryu is displayed properly


Well although the name of the style is spelt the same way it is not pronounced the same way as the vulgar term.


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