# Signs your Ninja training might be questionable at best



## Bester

1- Your instructor is named "Master Sony" or "Master Magnavox".
2- Instead of training at a dojo, you train in your living room in front of the tv.
3- You want to be just like Sho Kashugi when you finish training.
4- You consider Michael Dudikoff an inspiration.
5- You bought your training gear at Walmart.
6- You have studied carefully the works of Ashida Kim, Count Dante or HaHa Lung.
7- You have a certificate showing a mastery of Dux-Ryu, Tew Ninjitsu or trained at the Golden Dragon Dojo in WNY.
8- You spell Ninjutsu, ninjitsu.
9- You made up your own art.
10- Terms in your made up art are in your own made up language.
11- You consider training to involve throwing yourself against trees at 2 am.
12- You're ideas are constantly ridiculed on web forums populated by serious practitioners.
13- You are a student of Ashida Kim, Rick Tew, Frank Dux, Robert Bussey or Soke Calkins.
14- The hell with that tradition stuff, pass me the nunchucks!
15- You think real ninjas walked around with ninja-tos, in black outfits and disappeared in puffs of smoke.


Add yours :lol:


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## seasoned

#16 You yell "line up" and nobody is there.
#17 Your Ninja outfit subs for pajamas.


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## Omar B

You bought some of your ninja arsenal off of QVC.  



Your training is so secret even your instructor can't tell you about it, but it involves lots of time one on one in private with him


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## Bob Hubbard

This is your ninja sword.
[yt]IMuZoGVz9tc[/yt]


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## Omar B

Beat you to it Bob!


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## Bob Hubbard

Ah, but do you own such a magnificent weapon? I do....cuts snow blocks nicely...wouldn't trust it on anything harder.  LOL!


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## Bester

You set off smoke bombs and yell out "Poof, I vanish" before diving behind the sofa.


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## jks9199

seasoned said:


> #16 You yell "line up" and nobody is there.
> #17 Your Ninja outfit subs for pajamas.


But wouldn't a really good ninja school also yell "line up!" and have nobody visible?


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## Tanaka

#18 You've been teaching a certain art(Ex. Karate), and all of a sudden you have a Ninja master teacher(that no one knew about) with ancient lineage. And you now teach Koka ryu Ninjutsu.


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## Omar B

Bob Hubbard said:


> Ah, but do you own such a magnificent weapon? I do....cuts snow blocks nicely...wouldn't trust it on anything harder.  LOL!



No, I don't buy crap.

But if I do buy a sword that would be a huge sign that I've lost my mind.  Swords, who needs 'em but the insane and larpers?


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## Bob Hubbard

Omar B said:


> No, I don't buy crap.
> 
> But if I do buy a sword that would be a huge sign that I've lost my mind.  Swords, who needs 'em but the insane and larpers?


Omar, I run 3 forums, admin several more......I -am- insane. :rofl:
Plus I own about 20+ blades....paid something like $5 for the one in question before I knew much about steel quality...or saw the video.

As to who needs em.....I do FMA...those are all more or less blade arts, including swords. Tell a Pekiti or Sayoc they're a larper.....but please, have a camera running....it'd make a good Youtube clip.


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## Bob Hubbard

.


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## Omar B

Bob Hubbard said:


> Omar, I run 3 forums, admin several more......I -am- insane. :rofl:
> Plus I own about 20+ blades....paid something like $5 for the one in question before I knew much about steel quality...or saw the video.
> 
> As to who needs em.....I do FMA...those are all more or less blade arts, including swords. Tell a Pekiti or Sayoc they're a larper.....but please, have a camera running....it'd make a good Youtube clip.



Those guys I have no problem with, I'm talking about full on broadswords, claymores, katana and such.  I don't see myself getting into many duels in the foreseeable future.

More to add to the thread:

-This is your master






-This is your training partner


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## Bob Hubbard

Note: Omar has rendered me comment less with the 2nd pic.


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## Archangel M

I admit I miss the days of the ninja craze. Running around in tabi and black gi. Reading Ashida Kim and S Hayes books, watching "The Master" on TV. Running around the neighborhood on ninja missions.

But I was 14-16 years old then.


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## Omar B

Ninja stealth!


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## Omar B

Bob Hubbard said:


> Note: Omar has rendered me comment less with the 2nd pic.



Gotta train with someone.


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## Muawijhe

Omar B said:


> Those guys I have no problem with, I'm talking about full on broadswords, claymores, katana and such. I don't see myself getting into many duels in the foreseeable future.


 
I think only the dillusional see themselves getting into sword duels in the future. Me, I just like working with swords from a historical/hobbyist standpoint. But truth be told, and in align with what you said, I think all of us who are into iaido and koryu kenjutsu are crazy... but in a good way!



			
				Bester said:
			
		

> 4- You consider Michael Dudikoff an inspiration.


 
I *do* consider Michael Dudikoff an inspiration! He killed many ninja regardless of what color _gi_ they wore!

And now that I have a black belt certificate in HakkyoKen Ninjitsu through Ashida Kim, I can be just like him!


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## Grenadier

Careful, they may end up like the comic book character "Kick ***"


[yt]oKjycnhKxY4[/yt]


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## Bester

If your ninja training involves Zords or Morphing

If your instructor shows up in the Horror Stories section of this site........more than once!

If your training involves such real ninja weapons as a batleth, ninjato, or blades made by Hibben.

You found your 'master' through a spam message he posted on internet forums looking for students for his 'live in training class'

Your instructor cites training under other organizations that no one can verify. Other than as names used in Japanese Anime and US Cartoons.

Your instructor has ever appeared in a National Geographic special and explained that his techniques can be overcome if you lift your toe or tuck your tongue.

Your 'kia' is "OUCH!"


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## Carol

Bob Hubbard said:


> Note: Omar has rendered me comment less with the 2nd pic.



What....?  Its just a ninja being invisible.  In Chelsea. On the Village side. But not too close to the Village, otherwise he'd have to be wearing high heeled boots and a blond wig. :lol2:


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## seasoned

.


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## The Last Legionary

This is important.


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## The Last Legionary

This is important. It will save your life someday.


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## Bob Hubbard

If my instructor looked like that, I might have shown up for class more often.  Then again, my wife might have killed me too.  Probably saved my life.

Hey, wait a minute....it DID save my life. :roflmao:


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## Bob Hubbard

*Mod Note:
Post merged into thread.*


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## CoryKS

The Last Legionary said:


> This is important.


 
Her school. Post it NAO.

so help me, if it's Kug Maky Ung I'll kick a puppy.


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## Tanaka

she actually isn't using a straight Ninjato, so shes actually smarter than other _*"Ninjitsu"*_ schools.


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## Omar B

You might be a ninja, if this is your idea of stealth.


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## Bob Hubbard

CoryKS said:


> Her school. Post it NAO.
> 
> so help me, if it's Kug Maky Ung I'll kick a puppy.


I think the puppys safe. 


ok, if your ninja training involves a burka, you might not be getting the quality instruction you think you are.


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## Omar B

Ninjer!


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## Bester

Tanaka said:


> she actually isn't using a straight Ninjato, so shes actually smarter than other _*"Ninjitsu"*_ schools.


Yes. The sword. I saw that right away.


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## Cryozombie

Bester said:


> Yes. The sword. I saw that right away.



I had to go back and look for a sword.


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## Muawijhe

Cryozombie said:


> I had to go back and look for a sword.


 
There was a sword?


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## Omar B

"Ninja vanish!"


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## Cryozombie

MMMM Cougars.


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## Carol

Cryozombie said:


> MMMM Cougars.



Yo!

Oh...never mind.  :lol:


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## Bob Hubbard

Hey, lets stick to fake ninjas. Cougertalk is in the AD area.


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## Carol

Bob Hubbard said:


> Hey, lets stick to fake ninjas. Cougertalk is in the AD area.



Right!!  Sorry 


Diamond Dave, Ninjettey, and the famous Judy Chop!!

[yt]GuigcXvcy1A[/yt]


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## Omar B

Carol said:


> Right!!  Sorry
> 
> 
> Diamond Dave, Ninjettey, and the famous Judy Chop!!
> 
> [yt]GuigcXvcy1A[/yt]



Osu Sensei!


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## CoryKS

Ninjy Whompin' Action for the win!


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## Josh Oakley

Bester said:


> 13- You are a student of Ashida Kim, Rick Tew, Frank Dux, Robert Bussey or Soke Calkins.


 
Wow. Biased much?


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## bribrius

your classes consist of instruction via mail order. And don't even include videos.


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## Bester

Josh Oakley said:


> Wow. Biased much?




Yes, against crap and frauds and BS artists.

Ashida Kim is pretty much universally seen as a sham. He's a skinny white guy who the legit martial arts world sees as a joke. Real names Chris Hunter.

Rick Tew is a spammer who teaches people to play at being a go-go power ranger in their back yards. He's spammed this site with ads for his little 'ninjercamp', and there's even a locked archive here that's little more than a train wreck. Think a former mod was a student. He's banned for showing the quality of his training.

Frank Dux, fabricated so much who knows where reality is there. Again, locked area train wrecks and great debate topic.

Robert Bussey, another phony "AmericanNinja". See train wrecks for this one.

Soke Calkins. Go look at the number of threads on this clown in the great debate. Seriously.

Use Google or just search this site. You'll find so many locked threads on these clowns it'll amaze you.

Add to this: Dr. Ha Ha Lung, another pen name of Chris Hunter.

So yeah. I'm biased. Running through the woods waving a stick and playing worked when I was 5. 50 years later, I want something founded more in reality.


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## Josh Oakley

Bester said:


> Yes, against crap and frauds and BS artists.
> 
> Ashida Kim is pretty much universally seen as a sham. He's a skinny white guy who the legit martial arts world sees as a joke. Real names Chris Hunter.
> 
> Rick Tew is a spammer who teaches people to play at being a go-go power ranger in their back yards. He's spammed this site with ads for his little 'ninjercamp', and there's even a locked archive here that's little more than a train wreck. Think a former mod was a student. He's banned for showing the quality of his training.
> 
> Frank Dux, fabricated so much who knows where reality is there. Again, locked area train wrecks and great debate topic.
> 
> Robert Bussey, another phony "AmericanNinja". See train wrecks for this one.
> 
> Soke Calkins. Go look at the number of threads on this clown in the great debate. Seriously.
> 
> Use Google or just search this site. You'll find so many locked threads on these clowns it'll amaze you.
> 
> Add to this: Dr. Ha Ha Lung, another pen name of Chris Hunter.
> 
> So yeah. I'm biased. Running through the woods waving a stick and playing worked when I was 5. 50 years later, I want something founded more in reality.


 
Can't say anything one way or other about anyone other than Frank Dux. I know him pretty well. I've been training under him for about 2 years. Never in that time have we run through the woods playing with sticks. Won't get into whether or not he's fabricated anything, since people believe what they want, pro or con, with no regards to the validity of evidence. I've done my research, and I'm satisfied with the results of it. But I'd guess you've never actually seen what he does in person. 

Unless you have. Then I'm all ears.


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## Josh Oakley

Bester said:


> Ashida Kim is pretty much universally seen as a sham. He's a skinny white guy who the legit martial arts world sees as a joke. Real names Chris Hunter.


 
Also, I had heard Chris Hunter was a pen name as well, and his real name was Radford Davis.


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## Bob Hubbard

Josh Oakley said:


> Also, I had heard Chris Hunter was a pen name as well, and his real name was Radford Davis.


That's what I heard too.  Also, Tew or someone representing him's been banned from here at least twice, maybe 3x for spamming. Email's were associated with his domains at any event. So, Tew's not a 'good internet neighbor' in my opinion.


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## Chris Parker

Josh Oakley said:


> Can't say anything one way or other about anyone other than Frank Dux. I know him pretty well. I've been training under him for about 2 years. Never in that time have we run through the woods playing with sticks. Won't get into whether or not he's fabricated anything, since people believe what they want, pro or con, with no regards to the validity of evidence. I've done my research, and I'm satisfied with the results of it. But I'd guess you've never actually seen what he does in person.
> 
> Unless you have. Then I'm all ears.


 
I think the point here, Josh, is Franks claims (completely unsubstantiated) of anything to do with Ninjutsu, the fact that his stuff looks nothing like anything authentically Japanese, and so on. If you enjoy the training, that's one thing, but to claim it as Ninjutsu is a huge red flag to those of us that train in the real thing. Oh, and before you try saying that we can't disprove his claims, remember the sticky at the beginning of this forum for what is accepted as Ninjutst here (from the sticky "Newbies Posting on Ninjutsu, Please Read):



Bob Hubbard said:


> *Newbies posting on Ninjutsu, Please Read *
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi, and welcome to MT! In order to cause as little confusion and to keep some of you from being mistaken as a troll, may I make a few suggestions?...
> 
> 
> 10) Ninjutsu is considered a* traditional Japanese art* here. As such, for us to consider it real ninjutsu, it must trace back to a verifiable or otherwise accepted legitimate Japanese source. Ashida Kim, HaHa Lung,* Frank Dux*, Rick Tew and Robert Bussey *are not considered legitimate sources for authentic ninjutsu here*. Neither are any of the "Soooper Sekeret" ninja clans who don't like to see their names in print, or that guy StormShadow from GI Joe.


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## Bob Hubbard

I forgot about StormShadow.  *rips up diploma*


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## teekin

Josh Dude, please don't derail this thread. It could be classic. Have you Never had a self proclaimed "ninja" show up to class? One who's obvious diet consisted of Double Stuff Oreo's, Jolt Cola and Cheeto's? Who watches the Heavy Metal, Afro Samurai, Blood Sport and reads Soldier of Fortune to prepare for the day when he will reveal his true Martial greatness to the world. He practices in his mom's basement and uses his dog as Uke. 

lori


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## Josh Oakley

Chris Parker said:


> I think the point here, Josh, is Franks claims (completely unsubstantiated) of anything to do with Ninjutsu, the fact that his stuff looks nothing like anything authentically Japanese, and so on. If you enjoy the training, that's one thing, but to claim it as Ninjutsu is a huge red flag to those of us that train in the real thing. Oh, and before you try saying that we can't disprove his claims, remember the sticky at the beginning of this forum for what is accepted as Ninjutst here (from the sticky "Newbies Posting on Ninjutsu, Please Read):


 
Well, I guess there's no way to continue this discussion positively. I'll bow out.


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## Josh Oakley

Grendel308 said:


> Josh Dude, please don't derail this thread. It could be classic. Have you Never had a self proclaimed "ninja" show up to class? One who's obvious diet consisted of Double Stuff Oreo's, Jolt Cola and Cheeto's? Who watches the Heavy Metal, Afro Samurai, Blood Sport and reads Soldier of Fortune to prepare for the day when he will reveal his true Martial greatness to the world. He practices in his mom's basement and uses his dog as Uke.
> 
> lori


 
Um... no? That'd be a new experience. I DID have one come in claiming to be the head of Fox style of Kung fu, at 19, but that's another story.


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## Vulcan

Grendel308 said:


> Josh Dude, please don't derail this thread. It could be classic. Have you Never had a self proclaimed "ninja" show up to class? One who's obvious diet consisted of Double Stuff Oreo's, Jolt Cola and Cheeto's? Who watches the Heavy Metal, Afro Samurai, Blood Sport and reads Soldier of Fortune to prepare for the day when he will reveal his true Martial greatness to the world. He practices in his mom's basement and uses his dog as Uke.
> 
> lori





That's not fair. Dogs make for great ukes. Especially in newaza randori (they are very willing to go into guard, especially if you scratch their belly).


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## teekin

These tripple XXXL ninja's can't lift their legs to any form of guard, " Ninja's don't 'do' guard ", too many cases of Sour Cream Rancheero Dorritoes. Some dogs do like to being Uke but being I'm talking about choking out your mom's poodle. And Josh, these guys Do exist, really. Alarming huh???

Lori


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## Josh Oakley

Grendel308 said:


> These tripple XXXL ninja's can't lift their legs to any form of guard, " Ninja's don't 'do' guard ", too many cases of Sour Cream Rancheero Dorritoes. Some dogs do like to being Uke but being I'm talking about choking out your mom's poodle. And Josh, these guys Do exist, really. Alarming huh???
> 
> Lori


 
Yes, very. 

However (tangent)... I have a poodle puppy. anyone tries to choke her out, I'll shoot em. Or sick her dad, mom, and cousins on em. The standards are a LOT more agressive than you'd think. Especially in a pack.


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## Supra Vijai

Bob Hubbard said:


> I forgot about StormShadow.  *rips up diploma*



How about SnakeEyes? He trained with StormShadow and won in their battle under the ocean.... surely he's a master?


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## teekin

Josh Oakley said:


> Yes, very.
> 
> However (tangent)... I have a poodle puppy. anyone tries to choke her out, I'll shoot em. Or sick her dad, mom, and cousins on em. The standards are a LOT more agressive than you'd think. Especially in a pack.


 
I have a poodle too, she is a mini. I have had to use Poodle-jitsui on her to get her nails clipped or get a glove back she has nabbed and is off to stash for later chewing pleasure. Wiggley little monsters aren`t they. :ultracool

Lori


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## Indagator

Hmmm... how about a red-nose pitbull or an Irish wolf-hound?

Hehehe.

The "XXXL dorito ninjas" are more than welcome to try...


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## Mac1964

She certainly blends!


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## Mac1964

Your right there is no way!


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## Mac1964

Surely!!!


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## Chris Parker

Uh, Mac1964? Might I suggest using the "Quote" function? I'm not sure what any of your last three posts here are in reference to....


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## Touch Of Death

Bester said:


> 1- Your instructor is named "Master Sony" or "Master Magnavox".
> 2- Instead of training at a dojo, you train in your living room in front of the tv.
> 3- You want to be just like Sho Kashugi when you finish training.
> 4- You consider Michael Dudikoff an inspiration.
> 5- You bought your training gear at Walmart.
> 6- You have studied carefully the works of Ashida Kim, Count Dante or HaHa Lung.
> 7- You have a certificate showing a mastery of Dux-Ryu, Tew Ninjitsu or trained at the Golden Dragon Dojo in WNY.
> 8- You spell Ninjutsu, ninjitsu.
> 9- You made up your own art.
> 10- Terms in your made up art are in your own made up language.
> 11- You consider training to involve throwing yourself against trees at 2 am.
> 12- You're ideas are constantly ridiculed on web forums populated by serious practitioners.
> 13- You are a student of Ashida Kim, Rick Tew, Frank Dux, Robert Bussey or Soke Calkins.
> 14- The hell with that tradition stuff, pass me the nunchucks!
> 15- You think real ninjas walked around with ninja-tos, in black outfits and disappeared in puffs of smoke.
> 
> 
> Add yours :lol:


Walmart sells Karate gear? Sweet!
Sean


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## Hudson69

You trained with Gecko45


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## Mac1964

Chris Parker said:


> Uh, Mac1964? Might I suggest using the "Quote" function? I'm not sure what any of your last three posts here are in reference to....



Sorry Chris I thought I was. :uhohh:  Argghhh... Newguy syndrome. I'll pay closer attention next time.


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## miguksaram

The uniform your master gave you still has the Halloween Spirit price tag on it.


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## miguksaram

Your master's name is Shomi Moni


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## Frank Dux

Chris Parker said:


> I think the point here, Josh, is Franks claims (completely unsubstantiated) of anything to do with Ninjutsu, the fact that his stuff looks nothing like anything authentically Japanese, and so on. If you enjoy the training, that's one thing, but to claim it as Ninjutsu is a huge red flag to those of us that train in the real thing. Oh, and before you try saying that we can't disprove his claims, remember the sticky at the beginning of this forum for what is accepted as Ninjutst here (from the sticky "Newbies Posting on Ninjutsu, Please Read):



The mean-sprited and false allegation that my claims go unsubstantiated resulted in SOF magazine being named a defendant in a lawsuit of libel and slander.  Exhibit evidence proves up my expertise.

People can make all the allegations that the world is flat. But that doesn't stop it from being round and, likewise, the same holds true for myself.

In terms of real martial arts vs. martial-talk; where more fighting is done through keystrokes than by way of getting down and dirty on the  matt, if your looking for acknowledgement, then let me refer you to my being named a source contributor on pg. 10 of US Navy SEAL SpecWar CFC manual (k431-0097). A court exhibit that speaks volumes over hyperbolized allegation, speculation and hearsay in terms of measuring the myth from REAL NINJUTSU!  Attached is an article that might shed light on the reality.


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## dunc

Hi Frank

I'm a little new to this site so we don't really (virtually) know each other. I love the focus that you put on helping people avoid drugs and focus on positive growth - awesome work!

I read the article and was curious as to what your training in ninjutsu was? The article suggested that you'd built your own art based on observing many styles, but didn't mention any study in ninjutsu

Also I had a look at the award of "Order of Saint Michael, Knight Chevalier" from the Police Hall of Fame, Miami because that's very cool & as a Brit I love the idea of this. Unfortunately I could find any entry for that award or anyone named Dux on the Police Hall of Fame awards database. Perhaps there's an error or some other explanation?

Thanks loads and sorry if this is going over old ground for you


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## donald1

I'll have you know I take my ninjitsu training very seriously. As a 15th degree black belt I find this post vulgar and offensive. Also just plain disrespectful. I'll have you know I don't throw myself at trees at 2:00am. I practice my ninja poses until 2:30am. Then I practice hiding for the next 15 minutes. Then I throw myself against the trees.


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## Buka

donald1 said:


> I'll have you know I take my ninjitsu training very seriously. As a 15th degree black belt I find this post vulgar and offensive. Also just plain disrespectful. I'll have you know I don't throw myself at trees at 2:00am. I practice my ninja poses until 2:30am. Then I practice hiding for the next 15 minutes. Then I throw myself against the trees.



Ah, you were hiding. Damn Ninja invisibility cloaks.


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## drop bear

Best necro ever.


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## Xue Sheng

Buka said:


> Ah, you were hiding. Damn Ninja invisibility cloaks.


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## dunc

Hi Frank

Any chance you could respond to my earlier post

Perhaps it got lost behind some of the other posts here

Thanks

D




dunc said:


> Hi Frank
> 
> I'm a little new to this site so we don't really (virtually) know each other. I love the focus that you put on helping people avoid drugs and focus on positive growth - awesome work!
> 
> I read the article and was curious as to what your training in ninjutsu was? The article suggested that you'd built your own art based on observing many styles, but didn't mention any study in ninjutsu
> 
> Also I had a look at the award of "Order of Saint Michael, Knight Chevalier" from the Police Hall of Fame, Miami because that's very cool & as a Brit I love the idea of this. Unfortunately I could find any entry for that award or anyone named Dux on the Police Hall of Fame awards database. Perhaps there's an error or some other explanation?
> 
> Thanks loads and sorry if this is going over old ground for you


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## frank raud

Frank Dux said:


> The mean-sprited and false allegation that my claims go unsubstantiated resulted in SOF magazine being named a defendant in a lawsuit of libel and slander.  Exhibit evidence proves up my expertise.
> 
> People can make all the allegations that the world is flat. But that doesn't stop it from being round and, likewise, the same holds true for myself.
> 
> In terms of real martial arts vs. martial-talk; where more fighting is done through keystrokes than by way of getting down and dirty on the  matt, if your looking for acknowledgement, then let me refer you to my being named a source contributor on pg. 10 of US Navy SEAL SpecWar CFC manual (k431-0097). A court exhibit that speaks volumes over hyperbolized allegation, speculation and hearsay in terms of measuring the myth from REAL NINJUTSU!  Attached is an article that might shed light on the reality.


What are the chances you could show the page from said k431-0097 manual?


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## hoshin1600

frank raud said:


> What are the chances you could show the page from said k431-0097 manual?


Chances?   Slim to none.  It doesn't exist.  The navy seal community is a small group and more open today then ever before in regards to what goes on.  There was a time when they were open to training with anyone. There was no official combatives program. So everyone and their brother might be invited down to show what they did.

All this aside navy seal combatives and a magazine article is not a form of Menkyo Kaiden or proof of such.


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## drop bear




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## frank raud

hoshin1600 said:


> Chances?   Slim to none.  It doesn't exist.  The navy seal community is a small group and more open today then ever before in regards to what goes on.  There was a time when they were open to training with anyone. There was no official combatives program. So everyone and their brother might be invited down to show what they did.
> 
> All this aside navy seal combatives and a magazine article is not a form of Menkyo Kaiden or proof of such.


Yeah, I know, But a boy can dream can't he? I mean a real life CIA asset who teaches the SEALs how to be badass doesn't show up in my life everyday.


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## drop bear

frank raud said:


> Yeah, I know, But a boy can dream can't he? I mean a real life CIA asset who teaches the SEALs how to be badass doesn't show up in my life everyday.



Seals are doing boxing and jits now anyway.

The Australian version of that guy is in Townsville. (Which is probably a day trip) I have been meaning to do a short course in just super tactical human weapon stuff.
Kinetic Fighting - Excellence Over Everything: Special Forces Integrated Combat


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## Frank Dux

dunc said:


> Hi Frank
> 
> Any chance you could respond to my earlier post
> 
> Perhaps it got lost behind some of the other posts here
> 
> Thanks
> 
> D



I was presented the Knight Chevalier Award in April 1993 from National Association of Chiefs of Police, Police Hall of Fame in MIami, FL. I understand other Hall of Fames exist so it depends on what data base your searching and when they started posting data... Regards to Ninjutsu training I was trained by and consulted with many sources as this is only "tradescraft" and NOT A CLASSICAL MARTIAL ART as others have been misled to believe.


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## CB Jones

Frank Dux said:


> I was presented the Knight Chevalier Award in April 1993 from National Association of Chiefs of Police, Police Hall of Fame in MIami, FL. I understand other Hall of Fames exist so it depends on what data base your searching and when they started posting data...



This is the org that awards the Knight Chevalier Award. (Actually its the Knight of Justice Award)

Award Program

Link to Database:

Award Recipients


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## Frank Dux

Thank you for bringing that to my attention.  Attached is scan copy as the original is in the office of my attorney. It is a filed Exhibit in various litigations and vetted in various court proceedings. Names are redacted from public purvey given the sensitive work I was involved with during this era,. To the degree I participated in a training capacity.









s 


 

 working with Law Enforcement.


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## CB Jones

Frank Dux said:


> Thank you for bringing that to my attention.  Attached is scan copy as the original is in the office of my attorney. It is a filed Exhibit in various litigations and vetted in various court proceedings. Names are redacted from public purvey given the sensitive work I was involved with during this era,. To the degree I participated in a training capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> s View attachment 21216 View attachment 21217 working with Law Enforcement.



Ok...The Venerable Order of the Knights of Michael the Archangel organization was one of the many organizations created by Gerald Arenberg and I think sometime after Arenberg's death the NACOP took over presenting the award.  Database probably does not show any awards prior to that since the Order was it's on org.


----------



## Frank Dux

Thank you CB Jones for looking into it. Most appreciative.


----------



## dunc

Frank Dux said:


> I was presented the Knight Chevalier Award in April 1993 from National Association of Chiefs of Police, Police Hall of Fame in MIami, FL. I understand other Hall of Fames exist so it depends on what data base your searching and when they started posting data... Regards to Ninjutsu training I was trained by and consulted with many sources as this is only "tradescraft" and NOT A CLASSICAL MARTIAL ART as others have been misled to believe.



Thank you Frank I think that, with your other post is clear

So I think you're saying that when you teach ninjutsu you're teaching tradecraft learnt from multiple sources. Presumably these are traditional Japanese sources (hence the use of the Japanese term as opposed to a western one)?


----------



## Frank Dux

Actually, its derived from multi-national sources thats root lineage traces back to the Koga Yamabushi and before that. 

Dux Ryu (trans. flows from Dux) Ninjutsu is as the name implies is my eclectic application of the traditional stratgem for a modern age. I was Gendai when it wasn't cool. It is in simplistic terms a post Meiji period adaptation that I feel makes it purer than any Koryu version. In that Ninjutsu is an operating stratgem as well as tradecraft and that if one follows 16th and 17th century growth the operating principle is entirely based upon evolution vs. regimentation and conformity.  

To suggest that the shinobi aka rappa aka suppa clans/families stopped developing their craft and that it dies with the rise of Tokugawa regime is not a theory I can ascribe to given my mentors lineage and their teachings that do not encourage limiting oneself to the historical preservation of obsolete methodologies -- like perfecting occult incantations. We use what is useful.  Ironically, the earliest teachings put it in conflict with what is being ascribed to as authentic ninjutsu.


----------



## Xue Sheng

@Frank Dux 

Do you have a Facebook page?
Do you check the questions you get in your contact form?
Do you respond to them?


----------



## dunc

Frank Dux said:


> Actually, its derived from multi-national sources thats root lineage traces back to the Koga Yamabushi and before that.
> 
> Dux Ryu (trans. flows from Dux) Ninjutsu is as the name implies is my eclectic application of the traditional stratgem for a modern age. I was Gendai when it wasn't cool. It is in simplistic terms a post Meiji period adaptation that I feel makes it purer than any Koryu version. In that Ninjutsu is an operating stratgem as well as tradecraft and that if one follows 16th and 17th century growth the operating principle is entirely based upon evolution vs. regimentation and conformity.
> 
> To suggest that the shinobi aka rappa aka suppa clans/families stopped developing their craft and that it dies with the rise of Tokugawa regime is not a theory I can ascribe to given my mentors lineage and their teachings that do not encourage limiting oneself to the historical preservation of obsolete methodologies -- like perfecting occult incantations. We use what is useful.  Ironically, the earliest teachings put it in conflict with what is being ascribed to as authentic ninjutsu.



Thanks for the reply

Can I ask who are your mentors are who trace their lineage back to the Koga Yamabushi?

Also FWIW I totally agree with your point that an essence of these (traditional/old) teachings is to evolve with the times


----------



## Frank Dux

Xue Sheng said:


> @Frank Dux
> 
> Do you have a Facebook page?
> Do you check the questions you get in your contact form?
> Do you respond to them?



Yes I have a Facebook page. I dont understand the other two questions


----------



## Frank Dux

dunc said:


> Thanks for the reply
> 
> Can I ask who are your mentors are who trace their lineage back to the Koga Yamabushi?
> 
> Also FWIW I totally agree with your point that an essence of these (traditional/old) teachings is to evolve with the times



Senzo Tanaka. The LA Times did a hatchet job on me trying to make it out to be fiction lifted from a James Bond movie but Ian Fleming based his characters on real people and sometimes actually made use of their names e.g. "M" was nickname for Admiral Menzies head of her Majesty Secret Service when Fleming was Deputy Director under him during WW2.  

Here is little more info on Tanaka

Martial arts legend Frank Dux's so-called 'non-existent' teacher Senzo Tanaka's death, travel records found - Artvoice


----------



## Frank Dux

Touch Of Death said:


> Walmart sells Karate gear? Sweet!
> Sean



You mean the "trash talker" has spoken. You know nothing about me other than perhaps something you learned second hand and since I taught modern version of Ninja being US NAVY SEALS to the degree my name is on the inside of their Combat Fighting Course manual, it seems to me you're calling them out as fake... which makes you an idiot


----------



## Frank Dux

hoshin1600 said:


> Chances?   Slim to none.  It doesn't exist.  The navy seal community is a small group and more open today then ever before in regards to what goes on.  There was a time when they were open to training with anyone. There was no official combatives program. So everyone and their brother might be invited down to show what they did.
> 
> All this aside navy seal combatives and a magazine article is not a form of Menkyo Kaiden or proof of such.



Menkiyo Kaidden is reserved for schools of Budo. Ninjutsu is not Budo but historically exists only as an add-on curriculum to a school  of Budo. Someone tells you they have a Menkiyo in Ninjutsu and not the line of succession is a red flag of ignorance which you display here.

So stop making **** up as your ignorance and words indicate further you aren't part of that SOF community.  You have no authority to speak for them or put out a bunch of nonsense, like no SpecWar CFC manuals exist. My name appears in the US Navy SEAL Specwar manual (K43-0097) on pg. 10.  I have citations for my service to my country from the House of Representatives and highest title to be awarded by a governor for my service to the country. What are your accolades that you think you can think of yourself my equal or worse pretend to be superior to the extent you are condescending and disrespectful.  Is that how you were trained to think and act with others?


----------



## Xue Sheng

Frank Dux said:


> Yes I have a Facebook page. I dont understand the other two questions



There is a contact form on it that people can access and they send you a message with their e-mail address.... do you ever look at that and or respond to it?


----------



## Encho

Frank Dux said:


> I was presented the Knight Chevalier Award in April 1993 from National Association of Chiefs of Police, Police Hall of Fame in MIami, FL. I understand other Hall of Fames exist so it depends on what data base your searching and when they started posting data... Regards to Ninjutsu training I was trained by and consulted with many sources as this is only "tradescraft" and NOT A CLASSICAL MARTIAL ART as others have been misled to believe.





Frank Dux said:


> Actually, its derived from multi-national sources thats root lineage traces back to the Koga Yamabushi and before that.
> 
> Dux Ryu (trans. flows from Dux) Ninjutsu is as the name implies is my eclectic application of the traditional stratgem for a modern age. I was Gendai when it wasn't cool. It is in simplistic terms a post Meiji period adaptation that I feel makes it purer than any Koryu version. In that Ninjutsu is an operating stratgem as well as tradecraft and that if one follows 16th and 17th century growth the operating principle is entirely based upon evolution vs. regimentation and conformity.
> 
> To suggest that the shinobi aka rappa aka suppa clans/families stopped developing their craft and that it dies with the rise of Tokugawa regime is not a theory I can ascribe to given my mentors lineage and their teachings that do not encourage limiting oneself to the historical preservation of obsolete methodologies -- like perfecting occult incantations. We use what is useful.  Ironically, the earliest teachings put it in conflict with what is being ascribed to as authentic ninjutsu.


Hi Frank, there is no Ninjutsu or legit ryuha that is called Koga Yamabushi Ninjutsu that can be taken by anyone serious that studies Koryu, or even shukyo. The name even in itself sounds so nonsensible. I personally do not understand how a Gendai art is "purer" than a koryu art and visa versa, in my opinion having done both, there is a surrealism in koryu arts that you don't feel in Gendai arts but that is just my opinion.


----------



## Encho

Frank Dux said:


> Menkiyo Kaidden is reserved for schools of Budo. Ninjutsu is not Budo but historically exists only as an add-on curriculum to a school  of Budo. Someone tells you they have a Menkiyo in Ninjutsu and not the line of succession is a red flag of ignorance which you display here.
> 
> So stop making **** up as your ignorance and words indicate further you aren't part of that SOF community.  You have no authority to speak for them or put out a bunch of nonsense, like no SpecWar CFC manuals exist. My name appears in the US Navy SEAL Specwar manual (K43-0097) on pg. 10.  I have citations for my service to my country from the House of Representatives and highest title to be awarded by a governor for my service to the country. What are your accolades that you think you can think of yourself my equal or worse pretend to be superior to the extent you are condescending and disrespectful.  Is that how you were trained to think and act with others?


You do understand that you can get Menkyo in other things besides Budo right? 
like a driver's license, teaching license, etc etc.


----------



## Frank Dux

frank raud said:


> What are the chances you could show the page from said k431-0097 manual?



I could and it as entered into evidence and vetted when I sued SOF magazine for libel and slander.


----------



## Encho

Frank Dux said:


> Senzo Tanaka. The LA Times did a hatchet job on me trying to make it out to be fiction lifted from a James Bond movie but Ian Fleming based his characters on real people and sometimes actually made use of their names e.g. "M" was nickname for Admiral Menzies head of her Majesty Secret Service when Fleming was Deputy Director under him during WW2.
> 
> Here is little more info on Tanaka
> 
> Martial arts legend Frank Dux's so-called 'non-existent' teacher Senzo Tanaka's death, travel records found - Artvoice


Wait didn't Frank say *""One of the great mysteries in martial arts is how Sanzo Jack Seki's father (1888 – 1975) like Sanzo Tanaka was not only a reputed Ninjitsu and JuJitsu master but Kung Fu master trained by Shaolin Monks in China, in 1920s-30s and a member of the Society of Black Dragons, the umbrella under which the Kokoryukai Black Dragon Society is a faction. After reputedly living in mid-west and California, just like Sanzo Tanaka, Jack's father allegedly he returned to Japan where he died, September 1975. The corresponding events lends us to believe that Sanzo Tanaka and Sanzo Jack Seki's father were one in the same person."
*
-http://www.coloradospringsninjutsu.com/Ranting_and_Ravings_2016/Entries/2017/3/21_Frank_Dux-_Debunked_Again.html


----------



## Encho

For the record for Mods, there is no intent at fraud busting or slander and libel on my behalf


----------



## Frank Dux

Encho said:


> Hi Frank, there is no Ninjutsu or legit ryuha that is called Koga Yamabushi Ninjutsu that can be taken by anyone serious that studies Koryu, or even shukyo. The name even in itself sounds so nonsensible. I personally do not understand how a Gendai art is "purer" than a koryu art and visa versa, in my opinion having done both, there is a surrealism in koryu arts that you don't feel in Gendai arts but that is just my opinion.



Well first off Ninjutsu is a 20th Century term and certainly not a budo lineage contrary to any assertion or assumption.  Koga is a medieval term designating a Japanese region and Yamabushi is an indigenous people within that region I never made such a claim other than it is a Ryu (flows from) root source.   The Tanaka line remains unbroken and one soke still teaching its Koryu ways is Emikio Tanaka ho resides in Japan and has a prominent school.  The argument Gendai remains purer is that to be Gendai one has to keep evolving and modern evolution of ways of the ninja is in compliance with guiding philosophy preached by its ancient predecesors


----------



## Frank Dux

Encho said:


> Wait didn't Frank say *""One of the great mysteries in martial arts is how Sanzo Jack Seki's father (1888 – 1975) like Sanzo Tanaka was not only a reputed Ninjitsu and JuJitsu master but Kung Fu master trained by Shaolin Monks in China, in 1920s-30s and a member of the Society of Black Dragons, the umbrella under which the Kokoryukai Black Dragon Society is a faction. After reputedly living in mid-west and California, just like Sanzo Tanaka, Jack's father allegedly he returned to Japan where he died, September 1975. The corresponding events lends us to believe that Sanzo Tanaka and Sanzo Jack Seki's father were one in the same person."
> *
> -http://www.coloradospringsninjutsu.com/Ranting_and_Ravings_2016/Entries/2017/3/21_Frank_Dux-_Debunked_Again.html



The blog is not credible. Don Roley is not a credible source. He has a penchant for mischaracterizing statements out of context and attributing statements to me I never made in order to further his trade libel of myself and others for his own financial benefit.


----------



## Encho

Frank Dux said:


> Well first off Ninjutsu is a 20th Century term and certainly not a budo lineage contrary to any assertion or assumption.  Koga is a medieval term designating a Japanese region and Yamabushi is an indigenous people within that region I never made such a claim other than it is a Ryu (flows from) root source.   The Tanaka line remains unbroken and one soke still teaching its Koryu ways is Emikio Tanaka ho resides in Japan and has a prominent school.  The argument Gendai remains purer is that to be Gendai one has to keep evolving and modern evolution of ways of the ninja is in compliance with guiding philosophy preached by its ancient predecesors


Well Frank the Kanji 忍者 also has kun reading as well as the Hanzi used in China . Interesting since there are Koryu schools that have Ninjutsu in their curriculm. 
Ok Koga is an area, though correctly said as Koka, Yamabushi is a religious sect who in history _may _have had a small influence on ninjutsu, However there is no support that there is any Yamabushi sects that were called Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu, did something refered to as Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu, further more into the 20th century, it is highly doubtful that anyone who is practicing Shugendo has much information or martial application pertaining to ninjutsu. In most situations when naming a ryuha it has a person's name rather than something as odd as Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu. All I could find on an Tanaka Emikio is she lives in Nagasaki but there are quite a lot of people with that name so who knows.  If it is prominent as you say, then in Koryu circles it should be well known as that is what prominent means.

Well in Koryu the forms may not be changing however, Koryu does Goshinjutsu techniques that can be applied in modern times.


----------



## Frank Dux

Encho said:


> Well Frank the Kanji 忍者 also has kun reading as well as the Hanzi used in China . Interesting since there are Koryu schools that have Ninjutsu in their curriculm.
> Ok Koga is an area, though correctly said as Koka, Yamabushi is a religious sect who in history _may _have had a small influence on ninjutsu, However there is no support that there is any Yamabushi sects that were called Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu, did something refered to as Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu, further more into the 20th century, it is highly doubtful that anyone who is practicing Shugendo has much information or martial application pertaining to ninjutsu. In most situations when naming a ryuha it has a person's name rather than something as odd as Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu. All I could find on an Tanaka Emikio is she lives in Nagasaki but there are quite a lot of people with that name so who knows.  If it is prominent as you say, then in Koryu circles it should be well known as that is what prominent means.
> 
> Well in Koryu the forms may not be changing however, Koryu does Goshinjutsu techniques that can be applied in modern times.



I think we are splitting hairs here...


----------



## Encho

Frank Dux said:


> The blog is not credible. Don Roley is not a credible source. He has a penchant for mischaracterizing statements out of context and attributing statements to me I never made in order to further his trade libel of myself and others for his own financial benefit.


1. Don Roley is fluent in Japanese and has lived in Japan
2.Don Roley has studied with the Bujinkan in Japan for a good while has translated books especially on Koga Ninjutsu the very art you claim.
The folks at koryu.com are not interested in ninjutsu things or debating on forums. Mr. Roley has most likely put in the most research or perhaps Roy Ron.
If we are going to debate about Ninjutsu and Japan then someone who has extensive knowledge on the subject and can speak and read the language would be the better choice.


----------



## Encho

Frank Dux said:


> I think we are splitting hairs here...


 Well no actually, you are saying there exist a Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu ryuha I am saying it is not possible because it is not how Japanese name things. It just sounds way to odd. Understand that Yamabushi is a religious sect it has very little connection to ninjutsu and into the 20th century even less connection. 
Is it possible that some point in time a Yamabushi may have spied or  influenced, helped or whatever in those regions sure, but as a ryuha no.


----------



## hoshin1600

@Encho 
i just noticed your avatar. i believe it is Zotoichi,  correct?  i really liked Shintaro Katsu.


----------



## Encho

hoshin1600 said:


> @Encho
> i just noticed your avatar. i believe it is Zotoichi,  correct?  i really liked Shintaro Katsu.


Haha yes it is!


----------



## Encho

Encho said:


> Haha yes it is!


Here's Abe no seimei


----------



## Encho

Encho said:


> Here's Abe no seimei


I also got an awesome musashi and jiraiya art piece in water colors similar to the Abe no seimei


----------



## hoshin1600

Frank Dux said:


> Menkiyo Kaidden is reserved for schools of Budo. Ninjutsu is not Budo but historically exists only as an add-on curriculum to a school  of Budo. Someone tells you they have a Menkiyo in Ninjutsu and not the line of succession is a red flag of ignorance which you display here.
> 
> So stop making **** up as your ignorance and words indicate further you aren't part of that SOF community.  You have no authority to speak for them or put out a bunch of nonsense, like no SpecWar CFC manuals exist. My name appears in the US Navy SEAL Specwar manual (K43-0097) on pg. 10.  I have citations for my service to my country from the House of Representatives and highest title to be awarded by a governor for my service to the country. What are your accolades that you think you can think of yourself my equal or worse pretend to be superior to the extent you are condescending and disrespectful.  Is that how you were trained to think and act with others?



you know what ...i do think this is the real Frank now.  to be honest i was kind of argumentative because i felt these posts were from an impostor just trolling to be annoying,so i was being annoying back.   but at this point i do not think it is an impostor.  i felt the real Frank Dux would have better things to do in life then make posts like these but i do not think an impostor would go through so much trouble to show these "evidence" posts.
so i apologize for that. 
that being said,  its rather sad that you spend your time arguing with people about things that do not really matter.
yeah yeah,, its your reputation.  but i think you might find if you stop making a big deal out of everything that people really dont care about who you trained under or who you taught in the past.
i do not mean that as a slam but rather to point out that all i care about is learning something from these forums.  most often we learn the most here, not from people trying to "teach us something" but from our own investigations into our own belief's and questioning ourselves.  i do think it is sad that you have spent maybe the last 30 years arguing and trying to convince people of your authenticity. like i said in the beginning past accomplishments are really irrelevant.  it is the content that people care about.  look at someone like Rory Miller.  who the heck is Rory Miller ?  what has he done?  he was a correctional officer just like the other *434 thousand*  officers.  but his message is what people liked and connected with. so now he is a leading figure and well respected, what is so special about him?  well nothing really.  but i have paid good money to work with him. 

i get it. back in the early 1980's accomplishments really meant something lots of people embellished because there was no way to refute their claims.  but look at someone like Villari his entire chain collapsed to rubble. he is now a joke. 
lots of people created their own system, many falsified a past for the sake of legitimacy.  times have changed the internet has brought us into the information age.  i created my own system, well created is not really the correct way of looking at it.  i studied authentic systems but i added and subtracted to it, to the point where i felt it would be incorrect to call it anything but my own creation.  i think this is a natural progression.  but the key is i openly admit it and i aim to let what i do stand on its own accord and let people judge what i do by its own merits.  and i allow people to judge me by my thoughts and ideas within these posts.  but the fact that i trained with many authentic 10th degree Uechi- ryu masters or met the KyuDo teacher to the Emperor of Japan or any of my other accomplishments mean nothing and in fact just get in the way of being an authentic human being.
Shunryu Suzuki  was a great example for me.  he said "the past does not exist, all that exists it today"  he didnt like to talk about his past, because it no longer exists.  its just a burden to be carried by some.
for you Frank, i know what i say will not matter to you.  you will continue on your Journey the same as you have done for decades.  i will leave you to it.


----------



## Frank Dux

Encho said:


> Well no actually, you are saying there exist a Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu ryuha I am saying it is not possible because it is not how Japanese name things. It just sounds way to odd. Understand that Yamabushi is a religious sect it has very little connection to ninjutsu and into the 20th century even less connection.
> Is it possible that some point in time a Yamabushi may have spied or  influenced, helped or whatever in those regions sure, but as a ryuha no.



I never said there was an ancient Koga Yamabushi Ryu teaching Ninjutsu.  Ninjutsu is NOT A MARTIAL ART but a 20th Century umbrella word. Even Hatsumi in his earliest writings makes reference to the Yamabushi.  But I suppose you know better than him?


----------



## Frank Dux

Encho said:


> 1. Don Roley is fluent in Japanese and has lived in Japan
> 2.Don Roley has studied with the Bujinkan in Japan for a good while has translated books especially on Koga Ninjutsu the very art you claim.
> The folks at koryu.com are not interested in ninjutsu things or debating on forums. Mr. Roley has most likely put in the most research or perhaps Roy Ron.
> If we are going to debate about Ninjutsu and Japan then someone who has extensive knowledge on the subject and can speak and read the language would be the better choice.



Sorry I choose to listen to independently accredited scholars who don't have any financial stake in the outcome of the research.  Their findings are clear and based on forensic history not folktales.


----------



## Encho

Frank Dux said:


> I never said there was an ancient Koga Yamabushi Ryu teaching Ninjutsu.  Ninjutsu is NOT A MARTIAL ART but a 20th Century umbrella word. Even Hatsumi in his earliest writings makes reference to the Yamabushi.  But I suppose you know better than him?


*"While once rooted in traditional Koga Yamabushi Ninjitsu and the Martial Sciences"-http://duxryusystems.com/*
From one of your sites and a quick google search comes up with your name claiming it.  Making a reference and claiming your art comes from are *2 different things.*
I am not convienced that the kun reading of Ninjutsu was not used throughout history.


----------



## Encho

Frank Dux said:


> Sorry I choose to listen to independently accredited scholars who don't have any financial stake in the outcome of the research.  Their findings are clear and based on forensic history not folktales.


Sure what accredited scholar who reads and speaks Japanese and studies ninjutsu would be higher than Don Roley? How about Roy Ron he has also done some translating on Ninja related texts.  My only interest Frank is in the claim of a Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu. It is actually pretty funny that this very conversation happen back in 2009 on Martial talk. Koryukai


----------



## Encho

*"Koga is a medieval term designating a Japanese region and Yamabushi is an indigenous people within that region I never made such a claim other than it is a Ryu (flows from) root source"-Frank Dux
"I never said there was an ancient Koga Yamabushi Ryu teaching Ninjutsu"-Frank Dux


Frank Dux is Sōke(宗家), a Japanese title meaning "head of the family," who may grant his own Menkyo kaiden-http://officialfrankdux.com/separating-fact-vs-fiction/#_ftn53
"Someone tells you they have a Menkiyo in Ninjutsu and not the line of succession is a red flag of ignorance which you display here."-Frank Dux




*


----------



## Grenadier

*Admin's Note:*

Folks, I'm going to remind y'all that discussions on this forum are to be kept civil.   

We do tolerate some heat, but outright flames are forbidden, and will "earn" you some warning points that can lead to the suspension or banning of your account.  

-G


----------



## Xue Sheng

Frank Dux said:


> Yes I have a Facebook page. I dont understand the other two questions



@Frank Dux 

I will only ask this one more time and if I get an answer I appreciate it, if I do not I consider that an answer as well

There is a contact form on it that people can access and they send you a message with their e-mail address.... do you ever look at that and or respond to it?


----------



## hoshin1600

Encho said:


> Yamabushi is an indigenous people


actually the only indigenous people on Japan are the Ainu way up north.  you know those round eyed Native american looking people that were pushed to the uninhabitable areas of Hokkaido.  yeah the Japanese dont like to talk about them to much.  they are the Japanese version of America's Indians.
Ainu people - Wikipedia


----------



## Encho

hoshin1600 said:


> actually the only indigenous people on Japan are the Ainu way up north.  you know those round eyed Native american looking people that were pushed to the uninhabitable areas of Hokkaido.  yeah the Japanese dont like to talk about them to much.  they are the Japanese version of America's Indians.
> Ainu people - Wikipedia


Ya sorry that was part of Frank's post that I accidentally quoted. I'm not good at quote function.


----------



## Frank Dux

Encho said:


> *"While once rooted in traditional Koga Yamabushi Ninjitsu and the Martial Sciences"-http://duxryusystems.com/*
> From one of your sites and a quick google search comes up with your name claiming it.  Making a reference and claiming your art comes from are *2 different things.*
> I am not convienced that the kun reading of Ninjutsu was not used throughout history.



Not my website... I don't control or manage it... nor is it inaccurate depending upon your interpretation as it says "rooted in..."


----------



## Frank Dux

Xue Sheng said:


> @Frank Dux
> 
> I will only ask this one more time and if I get an answer I appreciate it, if I do not I consider that an answer as well
> 
> There is a contact form on it that people can access and they send you a message with their e-mail address.... do you ever look at that and or respond to it?



I don't recall seeing it and must have either gone through it to quickly or never open it. However, one member did find me on Facebook and I confirmed my identity.


----------



## Frank Dux

Encho said:


> *"Koga is a medieval term designating a Japanese region and Yamabushi is an indigenous people within that region I never made such a claim other than it is a Ryu (flows from) root source"-Frank Dux
> "I never said there was an ancient Koga Yamabushi Ryu teaching Ninjutsu"-Frank Dux
> 
> 
> Frank Dux is Sōke(宗家), a Japanese title meaning "head of the family," who may grant his own Menkyo kaiden-http://officialfrankdux.com/separating-fact-vs-fiction/#_ftn53
> "Someone tells you they have a Menkiyo in Ninjutsu and not the line of succession is a red flag of ignorance which you display here."-Frank Dux
> 
> 
> 
> *


My Budo (trans. "Way of War") is "Dux Ryu" that as its founder and head of family I have the authority to issue a document of transmission in my way Dux Ryu... Ninjutsu is again a 20th Century umbrella term denoting ancient rooted and stylized "tradecraft."  There exist no Menkyo for NInjutsu in and of itself is what I was referring to, understand better?  

Here's the example a person says "Im a 10th Degree in Karate... and have a Menkyo for Karate in and of itself without naming which style aka Budo is a red flag. Someone says they have a Menkyo in a particular form of Karate (Goju, Kyokushinkai, etc.)  is more appropriate.


----------



## Frank Dux

hoshin1600 said:


> you know what ...i do think this is the real Frank now.  to be honest i was kind of argumentative because i felt these posts were from an impostor just trolling to be annoying,so i was being annoying back.   but at this point i do not think it is an impostor.  i felt the real Frank Dux would have better things to do in life then make posts like these but i do not think an impostor would go through so much trouble to show these "evidence" posts.
> so i apologize for that.
> that being said,  its rather sad that you spend your time arguing with people about things that do not really matter.
> yeah yeah,, its your reputation.  but i think you might find if you stop making a big deal out of everything that people really dont care about who you trained under or who you taught in the past.
> i do not mean that as a slam but rather to point out that all i care about is learning something from these forums.  most often we learn the most here, not from people trying to "teach us something" but from our own investigations into our own belief's and questioning ourselves.  i do think it is sad that you have spent maybe the last 30 years arguing and trying to convince people of your authenticity. like i said in the beginning past accomplishments are really irrelevant.  it is the content that people care about.  look at someone like Rory Miller.  who the heck is Rory Miller ?  what has he done?  he was a correctional officer just like the other *434 thousand*  officers.  but his message is what people liked and connected with. so now he is a leading figure and well respected, what is so special about him?  well nothing really.  but i have paid good money to work with him.
> 
> i get it. back in the early 1980's accomplishments really meant something lots of people embellished because there was no way to refute their claims.  but look at someone like Villari his entire chain collapsed to rubble. he is now a joke.
> lots of people created their own system, many falsified a past for the sake of legitimacy.  times have changed the internet has brought us into the information age.  i created my own system, well created is not really the correct way of looking at it.  i studied authentic systems but i added and subtracted to it, to the point where i felt it would be incorrect to call it anything but my own creation.  i think this is a natural progression.  but the key is i openly admit it and i aim to let what i do stand on its own accord and let people judge what i do by its own merits.  and i allow people to judge me by my thoughts and ideas within these posts.  but the fact that i trained with many authentic 10th degree Uechi- ryu masters or met the KyuDo teacher to the Emperor of Japan or any of my other accomplishments mean nothing and in fact just get in the way of being an authentic human being.
> Shunryu Suzuki  was a great example for me.  he said "the past does not exist, all that exists it today"  he didnt like to talk about his past, because it no longer exists.  its just a burden to be carried by some.
> for you Frank, i know what i say will not matter to you.  you will continue on your Journey the same as you have done for decades.  i will leave you to it.



Fred Villari monetized Martial Arts as a business and retired exceptionally wealthy. His franchise retired with him.


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## Encho

Hi Frank
Just to clarify you are not claiming that Dux ryu comes from any koga yamabushi ninjutsu or anything remote of any yamabushi ryuha?

I suppose if a menkyo kaiden was issued in say Katori Shinto ryu which does have ninjutsu as part of its curriculum would you still say that? Even if a person was designated someone as soke of a ryuha he would still need a menkyo, kyoju Dari, or some sort of certificate as a menkyo simply means license.


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## hoshin1600

Frank Dux said:


> Fred Villari monetized Martial Arts as a business and retired exceptionally wealthy. His franchise retired with him.


this is a deviation from the thread, but your version of history is a little fuzzy.  yes Fred monetized and franchised,. his chain is still active.  i cannot comment on his net worth that is irrelevant anyway.  what is important is that ALL of his top ranks left the franchise starting in 1990.  if you would like a list i can give it.  needless to say they abandoned him like rats from a ship along with all of the lower black belts and thousands of students and schools. why because it was suicide to be associated with his name.  but maybe he is a hero of yours . whatever.


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## Buka

Heck, Fred Villari was Frank Dux before Frank Dux was.

That was kind of fun, writing that sentence.


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## wab25

Hi Frank - I would like butt in here for a minute. 

First, a little about me - I am a Danzan Ryu Jujitsu guy. I have been training Danzan Ryu for a number of years, and have also cross trained in a few other arts. But, at heart, I am a Danzan Ryu guy.

As I read this thread, and the other, I find them quite entertaining. However, I don't really care. I don't really care if you are the real Frank Dux. I don't care about your lineage. I don't care if your art is gendai or koryu or something else entirely. Remember, I am a Danzan Ryu guy... so your lineage means nothing to me. 

However, you must have had some amount of training, and some experience on the floor. (how much, I can't say... I don't know anything about you) Your experiences are different than mine. You have learned different things, and most likely, the same things as me only in a different way and or context. You have a different view on these things than I do. That is what I care about. That is why I am here. I want to hear from, and share with people, the things we learn and the different perspectives we have.

My hope is that you will stick around a while. I hope you will pop in on other threads, and offer your views, suggestions, tips and thoughts on the different subjects being discussed. I hope you will leave this mess here, on these two threads (as entertaining as it is), and just offer your views on these other subjects. Hopefully, in those discussions, we can both learn and grow as a result. That is the reason for this forum.

You will be judged by your messages. This is the same for everyone who posts here. You will not be judged by your fancy uniform or by the color of the thingy that keeps it closed. People here are judged only by the content of their posts. What is interesting is that I have learned things from folks here who are many times more experienced than I. But I have also learned many things from folks here just beginning their journey. Stripping away the ranks, and the associations, makes everyone here much more approachable. This makes communication easier, when we are not all comparing the color of the thingys we use to close our uniform.

Anyway, I hope to hear your input on the other subjects being discussed on this site. I think you have something to offer us. If you open yourself up, and look, I think you will find that we have somethings to offer you as well. I have appreciated the mutually beneficial nature of this site.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Frank Dux said:


> Fred Villari monetized Martial Arts as a business and retired exceptionally wealthy. His franchise retired with him.


Hoshin already clarified, but his franchise did not retire with him, it's still active. Due to the jumping ship hoshin mentioned, it split into a ton of different groups, all with the name (or something close) to shaolin kempo, but his system is still very much practiced, just not necessarily under his name.


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## Xue Sheng

Frank Dux said:


> I don't recall seeing it and must have either gone through it to quickly or never open it. However, one member did find me on Facebook and I confirmed my identity.



I found you but got no response


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## JR 137

wab25 said:


> Hi Frank - I would like butt in here for a minute.
> 
> First, a little about me - I am a Danzan Ryu Jujitsu guy. I have been training Danzan Ryu for a number of years, and have also cross trained in a few other arts. But, at heart, I am a Danzan Ryu guy.
> 
> As I read this thread, and the other, I find them quite entertaining. However, I don't really care. I don't really care if you are the real Frank Dux. I don't care about your lineage. I don't care if your art is gendai or koryu or something else entirely. Remember, I am a Danzan Ryu guy... so your lineage means nothing to me.
> 
> However, you must have had some amount of training, and some experience on the floor. (how much, I can't say... I don't know anything about you) Your experiences are different than mine. You have learned different things, and most likely, the same things as me only in a different way and or context. You have a different view on these things than I do. That is what I care about. That is why I am here. I want to hear from, and share with people, the things we learn and the different perspectives we have.
> 
> My hope is that you will stick around a while. I hope you will pop in on other threads, and offer your views, suggestions, tips and thoughts on the different subjects being discussed. I hope you will leave this mess here, on these two threads (as entertaining as it is), and just offer your views on these other subjects. Hopefully, in those discussions, we can both learn and grow as a result. That is the reason for this forum.
> 
> You will be judged by your messages. This is the same for everyone who posts here. You will not be judged by your fancy uniform or by the color of the thingy that keeps it closed. People here are judged only by the content of their posts. What is interesting is that I have learned things from folks here who are many times more experienced than I. But I have also learned many things from folks here just beginning their journey. Stripping away the ranks, and the associations, makes everyone here much more approachable. This makes communication easier, when we are not all comparing the color of the thingys we use to close our uniform.
> 
> Anyway, I hope to hear your input on the other subjects being discussed on this site. I think you have something to offer us. If you open yourself up, and look, I think you will find that we have somethings to offer you as well. I have appreciated the mutually beneficial nature of this site.


Exactly.  And I have to go there, in the name of my warped sense of humor...

What’s the difference if Bruce Springsteen is his shidoshi?  Show us the dim mak.  

In other words... this past stuff is tired and old.  It’s comical and just dumb at the same time.  If you are who you claim to be, and I’m thinking you are*, please contribute something valuable.  And not the absurd fiction that no one believes is actually passed on such as in the other thread.

*I had my doubts before.  I hate to say it, but I believe he really is Frank Dux.  I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer though, so don’t hold it against me if it turns out to be a scam the whole time.


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## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> Exactly.  And I have to go there, in the name of my warped sense of humor...
> 
> What’s the difference if Bruce Springsteen is his shidoshi?  Show us the dim mak.
> 
> In other words... this past stuff is tired and old.  It’s comical and just dumb at the same time.  If you are who you claim to be, and I’m thinking you are*, please contribute something valuable.  And not the absurd fiction that no one believes is actually passed on such as in the other thread.
> 
> *I had my doubts before.  I hate to say it, but I believe he really is Frank Dux.  I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer though, so don’t hold it against me if it turns out to be a scam the whole time.


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