# Push ups!



## GINGERNINJA (Feb 17, 2009)

What is your personal best at push ups?  Do you do them before, during or after training T.S.D?  Do you do them in sets? 

My best is 60 push ups, but I average 40 x 2 sets then another 40 plus extra till muscle failure , after training one day on one day off , but it seems to be getting more difficult but then I am training longer hours then before ,

( T.S.D style push ups on 2 knuckles )


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## terryl965 (Feb 17, 2009)

Looks like you are doing a great job, I do not do any push ups anymore. I believe in doing some every know and then.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 17, 2009)

A lot depends on how you do them.  My sensei is big on push ups, and we do several sets of 30 during warm up. Sometimes we go for the burn with 50 per set.  Drop or otherwise disrespect a bo, and you owe him 100 pushups right then and there.

We do a variety of kinds of pushups.  Fingertip, on our fists, on our knuckles, bouncing hand-claps, hands and arms outstretched, hands stretched out straight ahead over our heads.  We also do a one-handed shift pushup sometimes.

We also vary greatly on our ability to do pushups.  You get a lot more exercise out of a standard military pushup with the back straight and not bend into a bow or belly drooping onto the floor than you do otherwise, but not everyone can do a proper push up or is even aware that their pushups are not 'correct'.  Lots of people think their back is straight when it isn't.

I could not do many pushups when I started Isshinryu in September, but I'm getting steadily better.  My pecs are really getting hard, my neck and back are tightening up, feels good.  I did not do 'real' pushups at first, due to my weight - I did 'girl' pushups, bending from the knees.  My sensei days 'do what you can do, just give your best effort at all times'.  So I do 'real' pushups until I can't, and then I keep going with wuss pushups, whatever I can do.  If I can't keep up the pace he sets, then I don't, but I keep going.

We never did many pushups when I was in the Marines.  Pushups are an army thing, we did pullups (not that I was that great at those, either).  But it's great exercise and I'm glad I'm doing them now.  More pushups, please!


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## GINGERNINJA (Feb 17, 2009)

I forget to mention these are extra push ups , outside of  push up fines during class ! 
I also do pull ups on the way back home after class there is a nice little park with a proper pull up bar there I find I can really feel the difference with the pull ups ! I think great exercise apart from my form always drops on the least 3 and I tend to strain my lower  back slightly , but nothing a little stretching dont sort out , 

I cant seem to break that barrier of around 55 push ups been stuck on that level for almost a month but my pull ups have increased by about 2 per each time I stop at the park ,

Bill what sort of  unarmed combat training did you do  in the marines ?


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 17, 2009)

GINGERNINJA said:


> Bill what sort of  unarmed combat training did you do  in the marines ?



It was not the same as it is now.  The USMC now has a purpose-designed martial arts style, with belts and so on, have you heard of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/tbs/Pages/MA/default.shtml

This is the manual itself (PDF format):

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/tbs/pages/MA/pubs_photos/MCO 1500.54B.pdf

However, we had no such thing when I was serving on active duty (1979-1985).  We were basically trained to kill, and we did not do 'martial arts' as such - we did hand-to-hand combat, with the goal being inflicting maximum damage on the enemy as possible.  For example, using an entrenching tool to the skull as a standard defense move.

I was a Military Policeman, so I had additional training.  I would not call it 'martial arts' in the formal sense, although many Marines took Isshinryu karate while they were in Okinawa (most Marines do a one year tour there at least).  Instead, we got specialized instruction in non-lethal forms of self-defense, including take-downs, come-alongs, hold breaks, and arm and wrist locks.  Some of these techniques are common to many martial arts styles.  However, I have noted during my recent Isshinryu training that a response to a lapel-grab, for example, tends to be more based on instant protection to the defender, with little concern for the attacker's well-being.  I agree with that for self-defense - but for an MP, the minimum amount of force necessary to effect an apprehension was key.  Different goals, so slightly different tactics, if that makes sense.

I would love to go back and get my MCMAP Black Belt - if I find an instructor, I may just do that.


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## GINGERNINJA (Feb 17, 2009)

have sort of heard of it I have a friend in the special forces n does all kinds of training , but he reckons for real combat use he tends to use &#8220; krav maga &#8220; ( I think that&#8217;s how it spelt ) the Israeli fighting system , I will take a look at the links n p.d.f 2morrow ,
And thanks for sharing that with us Bill ,
Do you think military training helps you learn your chosen art ? 
My friend in the special forces can just pick things up straight away he rarely needs to be shown something twice before he can understand and perform the move to a high standard . 
 
Yes Bill makes perfect sense use of non lethal force , do you get into a lot  fights being a M.P ? how would handle a situation of arresting a drunk angry navy S.E.AL ? 
 
Sorry for drifting off subject !


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 17, 2009)

GINGERNINJA said:


> Do you think military training helps you learn your chosen art  ?



It doesn't hurt.

Military training, in my opinion, helps because it teaches you that your body is capable of more than you think it is.  You can endure more than you thought you could.  You learn self-discipline and attention to detail, and you learn how to accept authority and take orders / accept instruction.

It may have a minor downside.  Military training teaches you that you are invincible and will live forever.  It's an important fiction that you have to believe in to do what is essentially irrational and contrary to survival - close with and kill people who never did you any personal harm.



> My friend in the special forces can just pick things up straight away he rarely needs to be shown something twice before he can understand and perform the move to a high standard .
> Sorry for drifting off subject !



Yes, you learn to see and do.  Failure to pay attention could get you dead in the military, so it is dealt with harshly until you do it.  Good point.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 17, 2009)

GINGERNINJA said:


> Yes Bill makes perfect sense use of non lethal force , do you get into a lot  fights being a M.P ? how would handle a situation of arresting a drunk angry navy S.E.AL ?



Yes, I got into lots of fights as an MP.  It was a long time ago.  Remember that nobody likes Marines (well, they didn't back then) and no Marine likes an MP.  So we were everybody's enemy and always a target.

Marines run on macho, and they're trained to back it up with brawn and skill.  They get drunk and they fight - it's just what we do.  My job was to make them stop hurting government property, meaning themselves, each other, and the bar in general.  I had weapons and training, but I also had backups and was not 'allowed' to back down - or lose.

I cannot tell you how many beatings I got, or how many beat downs I administered.  A lot.  Nobody ever got away from me, but I often had to have help in subduing tough characters.

I never had to deal with a drunken angry SEAL.  I would not want to.  They're really tough characters - all of them.   I have faced angry drunken Samoans, though.  Oh dear lord I got beat up bad.  Those guys don't feel pain, drunk or sober, and handcuffs don't even fit around their wrists.

The only advantage I'd have (most likely) against a SEAL would be that I'd be sober and armed.  My favorite take down for an enraged drunk was a shot from the butt end of my night stick to the solar plexus, straight out of my speed ring on my Sam Browne with the left hand (firearm is on the right, nightstick on the left).  I put my hand on the butt end of the nightstick with about three inches protruding from my fist past my thumb.  Drive straight forward, which ends up with the stick out of the speed ring.  Drop down, grab the other end of the stick with my right hand, and either come straight up into the gonads (if he's not doubled over) or the chin (if he is doubled over).  Follow with a baseball bat swing of the nightstick across the back of the shoulders below the neck.  He should be down, and you should be above him on your feet.

This is important as an MP because you can't have a 'ground game'.  You're in a bar, he has buddies, guaranteed.  You go to ground, his buddies kick your guts out.  So you have to drop him hard and fast, and stay on your feet, armed and ready for the next drunken idiot to launch himself at you.

If he's not down, mace the hell out of him.


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## MBuzzy (Feb 17, 2009)

There are actually plenty of threads on MCMAP and other military fighting styles.  I'd love to post in those if you'd like to give them a bump and re-energize the conversation.  

But back to topic on this thread....Personally, I don't believe in "TSD Style" pushups, since I don't really think that there are any proprietary styles of pushups.  I prefer standard flat handed push ups.  Usually the other types (knuckles, fingers, etc) are used either for bone hardening or strengthening of the fingers.  I think that there are better ways to do that...plus, it is possible to hurt yourself certain types of push ups (fingertips particularly).  As far as I can tell, you don't get a different workout for the rest of your body - outside of your hands.

I'm in the military, so I used to do a lot of pushups and do a lot now just to train for physical fitness tests.  I try to do 60-80 per day in 20 push up sets.  As for a max at one time....that was probably years ago in college and around 120.  

Push ups are primarily muscle memory.  It is easy to plateau on them though.  Working through that plateau is tough, although one way that I bust the plateaus for push ups is to elevate your feet.  You can also add resistance to your back - weights, backpack, etc to help with that.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2009)

I do lots of push-up per day.  Usually, I do them in sets of 50.  Whenever I have a spare moment and I'm board, I'll drop down and pump out 50.  It doesn't take long.  Throughout the day, I usually get in between 200 and 400 pushups.


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## Tim37200 (Feb 21, 2009)

Hello,
Most of the time we do quite a bit of push ups.  We do regular knuckle push ups, flat hands, twice shoulder width apart, triangle under the chest, and one hand up by the shoulder and one down by the waist.  We do fingertips every now and then, and when we do squat thrusts we add a push up in.  We've also done push ups with the clap in between, and push ups when you kind of slowly jump across the floor.  Whew, I'm tired just thinking about them!


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## Gi1 (Mar 13, 2009)

If you're finding it harder to train you're over training or not eating and resting enough. It's not the exercise that will make you stronger, thats just the stimulus. It's the food and sleep that will help you to grow muscle. Give youself more time between each intense workout, eat protien, Vitamin c and enough carbs, and SLEEP (thats when you grow and repair muscle)


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 15, 2009)

Whenever I do pushups, it's typically at the end of class...so it's not surprising if I'm completely wiped by twenty or so. Haven't really measured my pushup endurance apart from that. I don't think it's a really informative measure, though.

Now how long can you keep up two-legged hop-ahp kicks? I think my record is just over a minute.


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## Montecarlodrag (Mar 16, 2009)

If you are going to do lots of pushups, you need to keep a good body position, specially back and neck. Using bad positions to make them easier  (cheat) may be dangerous to your body.

I have found it's better to do 30 pushups but well done, straigth back and looking to the front (to prevent injuries). It's better to do 30 well done than 200 bad. With well done I also mean lowering to the point you almost touch the floor.

If you want to do lots for any reason, you should concentrate not only in the number. You must try to do them faster and faster, because so many pushups will make your arms too stiff and you could end with slow punches.
If you do them very fast you won't have that problem, you will be strong and fast.

Also, you need to do different routines, because if you do the same always, your body will stop responding. For example it's good to do 50 fast pushups (to develop arm speed). Other day do 4 series of 50 or 100 (to improve arm strength). Another day do as many as you can without rest, as many series as you can (for arm endurance).


Regards.


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