# When the Opponent Covers Up.



## mook jong man (Dec 12, 2010)

What tactics does your Wing Tsun / Wing Tsun lineage employ when attacking this type of guard or cover as commonly seen in boxing. 







In our lineage one of our main ways to attack this guard is to take advantage of the weak angle of the arms and to step in with a double palm strike on the back of both his wrists and send his own hands crashing back into his head.

Another one commonly used is to rip the structure away with a latch off a Bong Sau whilst pivoting and Hook Punching with the other hand , or alternatively at closer range instead of ripping the guard down and Hook Punching we use an elbow strike instead.

What methods does your various Wing Chun / Wing Tsun clans use?


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## Nabakatsu (Dec 12, 2010)

I haven't discussed when people cover up like boxers directly, good picture by the way, it's definitely a helpful device. I like how exposed his legs seem to be, I would probably be attacking them quickly. I feel like you could crash in with a lan sao and bash in his head with elbows pretty effectively too, utilizing a v step, going out at a 45 degree angle and than regaining the line of attack turning the lan sao to a bong sau as you pivot to flank him and strike or trip ect ect.. lots of possibilities I can think of.. my thoughts are a wee bit scattered at the moment!


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## matsu (Dec 12, 2010)

i take it we're talking about a street situation or sparring.

the street my first hit would be the groin-to bring his hands back down or just hopefully drop him.
sparring-agin the floating ribs with some low turning punches.
 we also just use the weight of our arms to crash and smash thru.
but i am a beginner so i look forward to learning much from this thread.
cheers mook


matsu


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## yak sao (Dec 12, 2010)

One thing I was taught in WT, that we try not to go toe to toe with a boxer.
We use the outfalling/arrow step (as found at beginning of wooden dummy set) to flank them.
If street, as was mentioned, attack the legs. Even if just sparring, wedge in behind their lead leg, using your legs to disrupt their balance. We also use pak,lop,jut etc to remove the arms from in front instead of mindlessly chainpunching the arms/shoulders


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## Danny T (Dec 12, 2010)

Angle, take out the legs and dump him on to the ground, escape.
If while taking the legs the arms/hands drop strike the head during the dump and escape.


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## mook jong man (Dec 12, 2010)

In this scenario , just for arguments sake , we'll say that it is a street self defence situation and you are already engaged at punching range. 
He starts covering up to avoid your striking and you are choosing not to use any close range kicks.

Which ever hand technique you use , you must also be mindful of the fact that he can start firing back punches at any time , so our technique must also temporarily control his arms as we strike.

I think Yak Sao mentioned using a Pak , that works well too.
Do a good solid Pak to his elbow area as you step around to the side and it seems to spin his whole body around and open up the lines of attack to his exposed flank.


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## cwk (Dec 13, 2010)

step to his lead hand side, use a lan or something similar to have contact control with the lead arm and strike with my free hand to the exposed flank.
I like to use kong jeung for strikes to the lower part of the side of their body i.e spleen/liver shot, and pheonix eye/ginger fist (same thing really)to the ribs.
a nice little trick I like to employ from this position is after the initial strike with the ginger fist (palm down), they will instinctively move their side away an inch or two because of the pain, so don't retract your striking hand. Strike again from that position using the "good old inch force" and on contact twist your ginger fist palm up, screwing your second knuckle into the ribs. The ribs are designed to take pressure from the side coming in and the ribcage will absorb force without breaking easily from most ordinary strikes. With the ginger fist screwing action however, the ribs are prized apart from each other and as they are not designed for this, they break easily.
An alternative to the knuckle screw is to rake down their ribs with same second knuckle.
The pain from either of these techniques should make them drop their elbow slightly on that side, leaving you the opportunity to elbow over the top of their guard with your controlling arm.


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## Poor Uke (Dec 13, 2010)

Low kick to the shin or knee


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 13, 2010)

People often forget that 14/16 oz gloves (as shown in the diagram) make a huge difference in relation to covering up 

In a real situation, your opponent will be fighting bare knuckle and there will be a huge gap between his hands and the front of his face 

Any guard like that is actually easy to rip down and mould through (we do this at Kamon all the time)

If you are playing the slow game (ie sparring in class with gloves on), attack other parts of the body (biceps, etc) with hooks which will make the guard weaker

Dont go for leg strikes, as the probablility of someone in that guard knowing Muay Thai/kickboxing/karate is high

There are a number of very direct attacks you can do against someone who is covered up like that, but it would be hard to discuss them over a forum


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## geezer (Dec 13, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> There are a number of very direct attacks you can do against someone who is covered up like that, but it would be hard to discuss them over a forum


 
That's the problem with these forums... but I do use the second approach mentioned in the OP-- catch the guard with a turning lap, sweep it aside and follow through with a hook or elbow, depending on range. Unfortunately, good boxers don't seem to hang out too long in a defensive guard like that!


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## profesormental (Dec 13, 2010)

KICK TO THE GROIN!!

hehe...

Actually, not necessarily. Low line kicking is useful. As is grabbing and pulling down, (lop da). Yet it depends.

The person might be preparing a counter, and the person might not be static at all. So it depends.


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## zepedawingchun (Dec 13, 2010)

Danny T said:


> Angle, take out the legs and dump him on to the ground, escape.
> If while taking the legs the arms/hands drop strike the head during the dump and escape.


 
Coming from the same lineage as Danny, I have to say I'd do just about the same as him.  Why waste time upstairs when his downstairs is completely open to any and all attacks.  His groin, thighs, knees, shins, feet, etc. are all open to attack.  And if you wanted to stay upstairs, his lower stomach, or uppercut to the solar plexis, or side step to the ribs, side of the head and face, which are all open for strikes too.  Just because he's covered his face and eyes, you can hit him in those places because he not looking (as long as you're careful).


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## hunt1 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ding! Ding! Ding!
 Geezer hits nail on the head.

 The difference between training with others in your school doing what you think a boxer will do vs training against a skilled boxer in night and day. 

 Many things mentioned may work but many will not be able to get them to work because of lack of real training against those skilled in other fighting methods.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 14, 2010)

geezer said:


> That's the problem with these forums... but I do use the second approach mentioned in the OP-- catch the guard with a turning lap, sweep it aside and follow through with a hook or elbow, depending on range. Unfortunately, good boxers don't seem to hang out too long in a defensive guard like that!


 
Yeah and its actually quite hard to latch onto the arms (ie its okay in drills or chi sao, but against a good boxer you will struggle)

Personally I will often clinch the person who presents a guard and tie up their hands so they cant use their strikes


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## Poor Uke (Dec 16, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> People often forget that 14/16 oz gloves (as shown in the diagram) make a huge difference in relation to covering up
> 
> In a real situation, your opponent will be fighting bare knuckle and there will be a huge gap between his hands and the front of his face
> 
> ...


 
Agree with all of that...except I would still go for a low kick if the space presented.


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## Domino (Dec 16, 2010)

I like the double palm strike idea.
If close enough, the bong sau strike idea would work well as I've been practicing in chum kiu.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 16, 2010)

Domino said:


> I like the double palm strike idea.
> If close enough, the bong sau strike idea would work well as I've been practicing in chum kiu.


 
Good luck with that....


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## Domino (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks, I need it 
And what I mean't was I think the strike he was explaining is included in the chum kiu form.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 16, 2010)

Opponent covering up. IMO- there is still likely to be an open line and variations in timing may be needed.

joy chaudhuri


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## mook jong man (Dec 18, 2010)

Domino said:


> Thanks, I need it
> And what I mean't was I think the strike he was explaining is included in the chum kiu form.


 
The double palm strike is in the Chum Kiu form.
There is no luck involved , only speed , skill , force and reflex.

But like any technique it has to be used in the right circumstances , and that means for this particular technique to work the angle of his arms must be small so that his hands aren't too far from his head .

You are stepping in with your full bodyweight with one of the most powerful techniques in Wing Chun , the double palm strike , all that against the back of his wrists.
Quite frankly if done properly you would be lucky if you didn't break his neck.

Now if you use it in the wrong circumstance where the angle of his arms is a lot larger and there is some distance between his hands and his head , then it won't have the desired effect .

The increased angle in the arms means that it is now a stronger structure , and a double palm strike will likely just bounce off his arms or push him back slightly.

If both his arms are further out and away from his head then he is more likely to be vulnerable to any type of pulling motion on his wrists , especially if his arms are quite tense.

Try not to think in terms of technique , but think in terms of what structure is presented before you and what direction of force applied by you will be the best way to attack that structure.

We can use our various hand structures to apply force upwards , sideways , diagonal , forwards , back , all you have to do is work out which one is best suited to the circumstance , and thats where skill and experience come in.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 19, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> What tactics does your Wing Tsun / Wing Tsun lineage employ when attacking this type of guard or cover as commonly seen in boxing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



______________________________Many possibilities. Bue Jong Sao(from the first part of chum kiu) can work if done right.
joy chaudhuri


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## Domino (Dec 21, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> The double palm strike is in the Chum Kiu form.
> There is no luck involved , only speed , skill , force and reflex.
> 
> But like any technique it has to be used in the right circumstances , and that means for this particular technique to work the angle of his arms must be small so that his hands aren't too far from his head .
> ...



Thank you for the information MJM.
My 'luck' comment came as I sensed some sarcasm in Kamons reply, my bad if not, its nothing.


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## chain punch (Dec 28, 2010)

couple of hook palm strikes to his ears, take the clinch and introduce him to your knees.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 4, 2011)

Domino said:


> Thank you for the information MJM.
> My 'luck' comment came as I sensed some sarcasm in Kamons reply, my bad if not, its nothing.


 
There was some heavy sarcasm in my comment, but also a genuine feeling of 'if it works for you then great'. I just feel it is a bad idea.

This is always why sparring with heavy gloves is important. Chunners and students of other systems, always come up with what they think is theoretically sound. Yet a lot of other arts rarely waste time with the theoretical - they try and test techniques

The form is to give you an idea of moves in wing chun, and somethings are not what they initially appear (ie double fut sao in the second part of sil nim tao is not actually meant to be performed like that in real scenarios)

All Im saying is that it is worth training with good boxers etc, who will cover up and make things difficult for you rather than insist a move you have never tried will work


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## Vajramusti (Jan 4, 2011)

Wing chun does not need gloves though one can adjust to glove usage. The key is control over ones motions. Without self control- one wont learn much wing chun.I don't wear gloves when I spar... and use the right power for the right context.
Of course it's a good idea to try out one's skills with folks from other styles.Just know what rules for the interaction is involved. While working out with folks from other styles..I don't wear gloves unless someone insists on wearing gloves.

When this thread began- I did an experiment for my own satisfaction.. I had a pretty good boxer/wrestler who has done both sports...my biu jee went straight through his gloves.If I had used fullforce I would have hurt him badly.

joy chaudhuri


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 5, 2011)

Vajramusti said:


> Wing chun does not need gloves though one can adjust to glove usage. The key is control over ones motions. Without self control- one wont learn much wing chun.I don't wear gloves when I spar... and use the right power for the right context.
> Of course it's a good idea to try out one's skills with folks from other styles.Just know what rules for the interaction is involved. While working out with folks from other styles..I don't wear gloves unless someone insists on wearing gloves.
> 
> When this thread began- I did an experiment for my own satisfaction.. I had a pretty good boxer/wrestler who has done both sports...my biu jee went straight through his gloves.If I had used fullforce I would have hurt him badly.
> ...


 
The point is that if you have never tried going up against someone who is gloved up and going at you with full force, you will never get the experience of being under true pressure. A lot of chunners delude themselves by thinking that bil tze will end fights. It wont. I have overpowered a lot of good chunners when Ive gloved up and gone at them because they werent used to an opponent comibng straight at them with aggression, range and power

If you have a vid of your supposed encounter with this good boxer, I would suggest that you post it on youtube and silence the critics of wing chun. But Im sure, as usual, we will hear the same old excuses...


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## Domino (Jan 5, 2011)

I appreciate your 1st explanation Kamon, makes alot of sense.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 5, 2011)

Kamon Guy said:


> The point is that if you have never tried going up against someone who is gloved up and going at you with full force, you will never get the experience of being under true pressure. A lot of chunners delude themselves by thinking that bil tze will end fights. It wont. I have overpowered a lot of good chunners when Ive gloved up and gone at them because they werent used to an opponent comibng straight at them with aggression, range and power
> 
> If you have a vid of your supposed encounter with this good boxer, I would suggest that you post it on youtube and silence the critics of wing chun. But Im sure, as usual, we will hear the same old excuses...


_______________------------------------------------
I ignore the sarcasm in the last sentence.
I am not interested in silencing critics of wing chun but in discussing wing chun and trying to understand the best practice and usage of wing chun.
There is bil tze and there is bil tze-- depends on how much one knows and who is using it. 
I am not unacquainted with gloves or doing wc against gloves or with gloves.
I don't do Kamon and won't comment on Kamon.

joy chaudhuri

joy chaudhuri


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 6, 2011)

Vajramusti said:


> _______________------------------------------------
> I ignore the sarcasm in the last sentence.
> I am not interested in silencing critics of wing chun but in discussing wing chun and trying to understand the best practice and usage of wing chun.
> There is bil tze and there is bil tze-- depends on how much one knows and who is using it.
> ...


 
You are welcome to comment on Kamon, but I am not making any pop at your school. I am making a pop at your ridiculous claims that you stopped a good boxer with bil tze

But as mentioned, you are yet another chunner who makes a claim, and then when he is asked to simply back it up, gets defensive and says that he has nothing to prove

Dont make claims if you are unwilling to back it up - this is precisely why wing chun gets a bad rep on most forums


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## geezer (Jan 6, 2011)

Kamon Guy said:


> ...Dont make claims if you are unwilling to back it up - this is precisely why wing chun gets a bad rep on most forums.


 
Kamon, I don't think this comment is applicable. Joy is a very senior WC instructor and basically he said he experimented with a technique and felt it was effective. I take him at his word. That doesn't mean I believe that biu tze, as I understand it, would be my choice in this situation. As far as "backing things up" goes, how can you do that on a forum? If we were all in the same room talking to each other, _we could try things out..._ but in a written forum discussion? Of course it would be great if Joy could post a video demonstrating this application... for the sake of comprehension and furthering the discussion. And _maybe all of us should do the same_ more often. You know, a picture is worth 1,000 words and all. But on the other hand I'm practically computer illiterate, so don't expect that of me anytime soon!

Oh, and as far as why WC gets a bad rep... I blame it on all the WC guys (as well as their detractors) who basically just have a _bad attitude_. That's why I pretty much only hang out here.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 6, 2011)

geezer said:


> Kamon, I don't think this comment is applicable. Joy is a very senior WC instructor and basically he said he experimented with a technique and felt it was effective. I take him at his word. That doesn't mean I believe that biu tze, as I understand it, would be my choice in this situation. As far as "backing things up" goes, how can you do that on a forum? If we were all in the same room talking to each other, _we could try things out..._ but in a written forum discussion? Of course it would be great if Joy could post a video demonstrating this application... for the sake of comprehension and furthering the discussion. And _maybe all of us should do the same_ more often. You know, a picture is worth 1,000 words and all. But on the other hand I'm practically computer illiterate, so don't expect that of me anytime soon!
> 
> Oh, and as far as why WC gets a bad rep... I blame it on all the WC guys (as well as their detractors) who basically just have a _bad attitude_. That's why I pretty much only hang out here.


-----------------------------------------------Thanks Steve- I do experiment and share. I don't expect people to take it at face value without experimenting themselves.
But sarcasm does not help with communication and I don't and didn't expect it here.
But I re-learned a lesson again about net talk. Best,

joy chaudhuri


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 7, 2011)

geezer said:


> Kamon, I don't think this comment is applicable. Joy is a very senior WC instructor and basically he said he experimented with a technique and felt it was effective. I take him at his word. That doesn't mean I believe that biu tze, as I understand it, would be my choice in this situation. As far as "backing things up" goes, how can you do that on a forum? If we were all in the same room talking to each other, _we could try things out..._ but in a written forum discussion? Of course it would be great if Joy could post a video demonstrating this application... for the sake of comprehension and furthering the discussion. And _maybe all of us should do the same_ more often. You know, a picture is worth 1,000 words and all. But on the other hand I'm practically computer illiterate, so don't expect that of me anytime soon!
> 
> Oh, and as far as why WC gets a bad rep... I blame it on all the WC guys (as well as their detractors) who basically just have a _bad attitude_. That's why I pretty much only hang out here.


 
Im not talking about experimentation with techniques - Joy stated very clearly that he used the technique with a good boxer and it worked against them. That to me is a powerful statement and one that needs backing up. 

Too many chunners (even 'senior' chunners) make silly claims like this, and then expect people to take it at face value. THIS is the reason that WC gets a bad rep, and it goes hand in hand with a chunner having a bad attitude (ie making ridiculous claims) 

You can back it up very easily on a forum - video the technique against the boxer (or any good practitioner of martial arts) 

Otherwisem, dont make the comment to start with, as you pretty much offend people of other syles and we de-evolve into 'my style is better than your style' (ie in this instance 'my bil tze would handle a good boxer'). Nonsense


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## geezer (Jan 7, 2011)

Kamon Guy said:


> Im not talking about experimentation with techniques - Joy stated very clearly that he used the technique with a good boxer and it worked against them. *That to me is a powerful statement and one that needs backing up.*


 
Kamon, I agree with you here.



Kamon Guy said:


> Too many chunners (even 'senior' chunners) make *silly claims* like this, and then expect people to take it at face value. THIS is the reason that WC gets a bad rep, and it goes hand in hand with a chunner having a bad attitude (ie making *ridiculous claims*)


 
OK, here's where I have a problem. When another martial artist makes a statement in good faith that sounds questionable to us, why do we have to respond using terms like _"silly"_ and _"ridiculous claims"?_ Why can't we just politely disagree and, as you suggest, ask for a videoclip demonstrating the technique being applied? 



Kamon Guy said:


> You can back it up very easily on a forum - video the technique against the boxer (or any good practitioner of martial arts)


 
Heck, I've never posted a videoclip. If it's so easy I've got to figure out how, since a few clips would sure make some of these dicussions a lot clearer. Anyway, I think it's fair to ask for a video demonstration before you accept someone's claims. 

On the other hand, most of us are pretty busy and just make our posts in the vein of casual conversation. We aren't here to convert people, or recruit students. We are just sharing perspectives. If we had to "back up" everything we said regarding martial arts or anything else in life, people wouldn't say much! And, personally, I'm glad experienced practitioners like you and Joy contribute to this forum. I'd just hate to see us decend to the level of bickering that you find on some of the other forums.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 7, 2011)

geezer said:


> OK, here's where I have a problem. When another martial artist makes a statement in good faith that sounds questionable to us, why do we have to respond using terms like _"silly"_ and _"ridiculous claims"?_ Why can't we just politely disagree and, as you suggest, ask for a videoclip demonstrating the technique being applied?


 Because there are noobies to wing chun on here who rely on the advice from better or more senior practitioners. So I get angry when a 'ridiculous' claim gets posted which will mislead beginners into believing that wing chun is a simple matter of using bil tze to beat a boxer (not too disimilar to the Robert Downey Jr claims on Letterman)
The other point is that you will also rub other martial artists up the other way (ie claiming you can beat them by using one technique)



geezer said:


> Heck, I've never posted a videoclip. If it's so easy I've got to figure out how, since a few clips would sure make some of these dicussions a lot clearer. Anyway, I think it's fair to ask for a video demonstration before you accept someone's claims.


 
My computer is ten years old and on its last legs, yet I still have managed to post clips on youtube and put the link on here



geezer said:


> On the other hand, most of us are pretty busy and just make our posts in the vein of casual conversation. We aren't here to convert people, or recruit students. We are just sharing perspectives. If we had to "back up" everything we said regarding martial arts or anything else in life, people wouldn't say much! And, personally, I'm glad experienced practitioners like you and Joy contribute to this forum. I'd just hate to see us decend to the level of bickering that you find on some of the other forums.


 
Small claims are fine. I would never dispute someone who said they could handle a boxer etc, but in this instance the poster is claiming that he can defeat a (good) boxer with one move. This irks me as it is dismissive of boxers who are among the best strikers in the world. I train constantly against extremely good boxers with various results. Sometimes I catch them out, other times I get a few hits to the head. There is no one technique that would stop them. if there was, everyone would be doing wing chun


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## wtxs (Jan 7, 2011)

Vajramusti said:


> When this thread began- I did an experiment for my own satisfaction.. I had a pretty good boxer/wrestler who has done both sports...my biu jee went straight through his gloves.If I had used fullforce I would have hurt him badly.joy chaudhuri



Joy's experiment shows he can make it work for him ... however, we do understand this biu gee technique may or will not work for everybody. 



Kamon Guy said:


> There was some heavy sarcasm in my comment, but also a genuine feeling of *'if it works for you then great*'.



I think we all can agree on that.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 7, 2011)

Kamon Guy said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Possibly Kamon guy you did not follow the thread carefully and/or read my post carefully.
> It would be very unlike me to claim that a single technique done by anyone against a good boxer would work every time. The original post showed a guy holding his gloves next to each other in front of his face. And the poster asked for commnets on what different people would do in a singlr specific limited context.. I gave my commnet afterin an earlier post I first pointed out in a post that timing and an open line would be important.. then I did an experiment and shared what I did..
> I am very respectful of beginners questions and would not knowingly mislead a beginner- specially in assuming that they can do biu jee.Ip Man taught very few people biu jee and generally not in the open classes. One of the corruptions in the You.tube age of serious subjects is that it can give the false impression that any one watching you.tube can do skilled things.
> ...


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## chain punch (Jan 8, 2011)

This is a most interesting debate.  Without the use of video to support the claims of what works against a boxer, my question is what do you mean by it works?  It penetrated his defence and he backed away? He stopped fighting?  It made contact, he acknowledged it and you continued to spar/fight? Whilst slightly off thread, I am currently watching some vids on youtube from the bagua perspective.  What the author attempts to do, and very well in my opinion, is to break down and illustrate bagua techniques and why they would and would not work in a live situation.  As I am new to this forum stuff, is there a rule about posting video links?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPXHBIDO_1U&feature=bulletin

I can remove it if toes have been stepped on.

I seriously believe it is worth a watch.  My art and love is wing chun yet watching this video has given me some ideas to work in sparring that will still adhere to what I am doing, why I am doing it.  His bagua is not agaist a bagua man, nor should our wing chun be tested against a chunner.

Essentially, I am interested in what works from a wing chun perspective.  To return to my original point what and how do you define a technique as working?


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## geezer (Jan 8, 2011)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Possibly Kamon guy you did not follow the thread carefully and/or read my post carefully...
> So Kammon guy's sarcasm is unwarranted - one can just disagree without being sarcastic.
> 
> joy chaudhuri



Joy, I'd just like to add this. Kamon kind of provides a counterpoint to your position. While you have been a consistent  practitioner of one exclusive branch of WC for well over 30 years, he practices both Kamon WC and BJJ. And yes he is our resident grouch sometimes. But when he's away from this forum we really miss his input. 

PS As a guy who has been in WC a long time... _but_ with long breaks in my training, and even before that, often having to wait long periods between seminars with my former sifu, I have to acknowledge your point about consistent, uninterrupted training. There's no substitute for that! --Steve aka "Geezer".


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## Nabakatsu (Jan 8, 2011)

Steve, your conduct rivals that of a grandmaster, You have my respect good sir!


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## Vajramusti (Jan 8, 2011)

chain punch said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> An opinion-/definition--- did I find an open line for an attack?
> For defense- was I able to close the line?
> 
> ...


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## chain punch (Jan 8, 2011)

Apologies for pressing the matter but does the reaction of the opponent determine whether the technique works?  Also would you need to be consistent in it's use or is a one off OK?

Further apologies for not understanding you point about defence, could give more detail and thus clarity.  I is a bit stupid.

Finally in a recent post, somebody alluded that if you are learning good wing chun then you will climb the mountain.  I am a firm believer in having an effective teacher impart their knowledge over assumed quality of style lineage.  Popularity and heritage does not equal and determine skill, although marketing lineage-philes would have us believe different.

Perhaps a new line of discussion should be why would you do 'x' technique when an opponent covers up.

For me, if an opponent covers up as the original illustration, he is protecting and waiting to launch his next attack. Of course the illustration in some ways is a moot point as it shows stillness and in the chaos of combat very little is still.  

If we want a serious debate on this we need to consider several factors;

Environmental (are you in class, the woods, the pub, the kebab house.  Is it raining, dark, icy)

Relationship (random attacker, workmate, family member, sparring partner, pro fight)

Context (mugging, sparring, match fight, protecting another)

His mates (age, numbers, some of the above)

Your motives and his (teach him a lesson, defend yourself, beat him up)

Your morals and his (would you employ dirty tactics - biting, spitting, weapons, stamping when downed, take him down and put him to sleep, KO him, teach him a lesson)

Your health (warmed up, injuries, clothing you are wearing, how long can you last) 

Fear, aggression and pain and your ability to deal with it. 

This is not an exhaustive list and there is much lap over of each one.  Should we be training just techniques?  Or should we be also training the above factors and consider them?  How many 'masters' consider these or even discuss these with their student, us.  Or do they have blind faith in 'x' technique?

Rant over, for now.

Paul


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## Vajramusti (Jan 9, 2011)

chain punch said:


> Apologies for pressing the matter but does the reaction of the opponent determine whether the technique works?
> (Part of the equation)
> Also would you need to be consistent in it's use or is a one off OK?
> (Timing is also part of the equation- not mechanical techniques)
> ...


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## Domino (Jan 10, 2011)

Kamon Guy said:


> *So I get angry* when a 'ridiculous' claim gets posted which will mislead beginners into believing that wing chun is a simple matter


 
While I appreciate you opinion totally, thats the thing I didn't agree with in your post, the one thing I learnt from WC and BJJ to try not to do in any situation.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 10, 2011)

Domino said:


> While I appreciate you opinion totally, thats the thing I didn't agree with in your post, the one thing I learnt from WC and BJJ to try not to do in any situation.


 
There is a difference between getting angry generally (in life etc) and losing control of your emotions in a fight or in training. In training I am very professional, although I am human.
On a forum or when I see others mislead by comments, I do get angry, and Im not ashamed of that

I concede the point to Joy (and apologise) as he made an eloquent counter argument. I read his post as my one technique beat a good boxer as opposed to the technique I experiment with worked in a particular instance, which is a major difference

I also would like to point out that Im not a major fan of MMA (ie mixing a bit of everything). I am a huge supporter of finding a good base art, such as karate, kung fu, judo etc, and then exploring one or two other arts once you have grounded yourself in your core martial art

Im not with the guys who go training in BJJ for two months intensively and then go off to do striking for another two months etc. I think they miss something, and that strategy really is more for the cage or sport

Those who ground themselves in wing chun and then explore something like BJJ or boxing later on will really add something to their skills in total.


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## Domino (Jan 10, 2011)

Maybe why the sarcasm comes out from time to time, something Im trying to get rid of myself thats all and no nothing to be ashamed of, just an observation 

I admire the fact you combine the BJJ with wing chun, something I aim to do.


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