# Unconventional weapons



## BTittel (Feb 19, 2016)

Sorry if this has been discussed, please link if it has.
What is the general consensus on using weird improvised "weapons" like rolled up newsome papers ball cap brims, and others?  Had anyone used then and are they effective?


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 19, 2016)

I've used a shovel. Worked pretty good. I'm alive.


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## BTittel (Feb 19, 2016)

Nice?  Lol

I had a guy threaten me with a 16 ft board....watching him swing--correction--_*TRY *_to swing it was so funny_. _
_Edit: stupid auto correct._


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 19, 2016)

Never liked the balled up newspaper idea for multiple reasons. 
1: Will you really have time to roll up a newspaper? 
2: If you do, it will be very clear to the person that you plan on using the newspaper to defend yourself. This wouldn't be an issue (it isn't for a shovel, for instance) if it wasn't for 
3: How much do you have to train attacking someone with a newspaper where they wont be willing to just absorb the damage? I've never tried it but I imagine if I defended myself with a newspaper, they would just absorb it and continue stabbing me.
As for a ball cap brim-I have never heard of that? How would you successfully use it to defend yourself?


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## BTittel (Feb 19, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Never liked the balled up newspaper idea for multiple reasons.
> 1: Will you really have time to roll up a newspaper?
> 2: If you do, it will be very clear to the person that you plan on using the newspaper to defend yourself. This wouldn't be an issue (it isn't for a shovel, for instance) if it wasn't for
> 3: How much do you have to train attacking someone with a newspaper where they wont be willing to just absorb the damage? I've never tried it but I imagine if I defended myself with a newspaper, they would just absorb it and continue stabbing me.
> As for a ball cap brim-I have never heard of that? How would you successfully use it to defend yourself?



I had the same thought with the newspaper, but a ball cap brim does hurt pretty bad, but it was used in "play" torturing my brother until he stole it from me and turned it against me.  Hit to the ij/ej area could really hurt so we didn't try it.  But GB 31/32 really smarts.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 19, 2016)

Hm, I can see that. Personally id prefer somedthing either a bit smaller, so I can focus where I'm hitting easier, or something bigger, so it hurts no matter where I hit. But I guess it could be valid.


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## BTittel (Feb 19, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Hm, I can see that. Personally id prefer somedthing either a bit smaller, so I can focus where I'm hitting easier, or something bigger, so it hurts no matter where I hit. But I guess it could be valid.



If you have a ball cap around, roll the bill up to about 1 1/2 inches it creates a focused point when using the very tip of the thing.  Use it on intercostal areas, etc. I can see it being useful in a pinch but wouldn't bet my life on it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2016)

Ok if we're going to be serious about this, first dump the movie crap.

An improvised or expedient weapon is anything not designed as a weapon but used as one.

Weapons are generally categorized as stabbing, striking, or defensive.

Anything you can pick up and move easily/quickly can be a weapon if it can also be used to stab, strike, or defend. The rules are if it works, it works. If it doesn't work, you die. With that in mind, train with improvised weapons as you would train with any other weapon. Use it against a resisting padded partner as you imagine it would work, except for bludgeon or edged metal weapons - practice those against a wooden post.

If it doesn't work, move on.

Personally, I have tried and discarded popular myths such as using car keys in a fist with the keys sticking out between the fingers. Can be made to work, but first one has to be able to close distance and punch correctly, which few do.

I might consider a rolled up magazine or newspaper defensively against a bludgeon or a knife, but things would probably be moving too fast for me to do that.

I mentioned a shovel because that works if you have one. It stabs, it bludgeons, it cuts with a knife edge, and it blocks defensively. Look up eku or oar kata to see what you could do with a shovel or a rake, etc.

Consider also escrima and other stick arts, it's often not too hard to find a stick.

FYI, if you're going to punch with a rolled up magazine, don't be Jason Bourne. Punch with the gripped end, not the other end, like punching with the butt end of a knife, when the blade is held down the inside of your arm. Otherwise it won't work at all. You'll see.


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## ShawnP (Feb 20, 2016)

i personally wouldnt bother with a Newspaper, but rather a Magazine with a bound edge would make for a better tool.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 21, 2016)

BTittel said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed, please link if it has.
> What is the general consensus on using weird improvised "weapons" like rolled up newsome papers ball cap brims, and others?  Had anyone used then and are they effective?



Improvised weapons are just that… improvised. Can they work? Yeah. But the major consideration is that they are non-weaponry items pressed into service by necessity… and that necessity (as well as the skill and knowledge of the user) define whether or not they are "effective". In other words, this question can't be answered… as there's no parameters or way of qualifying a response.


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## Rayrob (Feb 21, 2016)

An ex colleague of mine was seriously wounded by a guy swinging at him with a rolled up newspaper just two days prior to his wedding day. 

Unfortunately for my friend the guy had wrapped it around a rather large combination spanner. 

The poor guy had to wear make up for the wedding photographs. The make up didn't conceal the large lumps all over his head and face. Those photos were a sight to behold.


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## Buka (Feb 22, 2016)

My wife fancies an old fashioned hatpin. At least in the winter, not enough clothing in the warm months to carry it easily. She's pretty good with it, too.

I grew up in the projects. We liked rocks.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 22, 2016)

BTittel said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed, please link if it has.
> What is the general consensus on using weird improvised "weapons" like rolled up newsome papers ball cap brims, and others?  Had anyone used then and are they effective?





kempodisciple said:


> Never liked the balled up newspaper idea for multiple reasons.
> 1: Will you really have time to roll up a newspaper?
> 2: If you do, it will be very clear to the person that you plan on using the newspaper to defend yourself. This wouldn't be an issue (it isn't for a shovel, for instance) if it wasn't for
> 3: How much do you have to train attacking someone with a newspaper where they wont be willing to just absorb the damage? I've never tried it but I imagine if I defended myself with a newspaper, they would just absorb it and continue stabbing me.
> As for a ball cap brim-I have never heard of that? How would you successfully use it to defend yourself?


My guess is that finding a newspaper would be rare, and if you did find one then there are better objects in the same area that would work better.


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## moonhill99 (Jul 18, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Never liked the balled up newspaper idea for multiple reasons.
> 1: Will you really have time to roll up a newspaper?
> 2: If you do, it will be very clear to the person that you plan on using the newspaper to defend yourself. This wouldn't be an issue (it isn't for a shovel, for instance) if it wasn't for
> 3: How much do you have to train attacking someone with a newspaper where they wont be willing to just absorb the damage? I've never tried it but I imagine if I defended myself with a newspaper, they would just absorb it and continue stabbing me.
> As for a ball cap brim-I have never heard of that? How would you successfully use it to defend yourself?



Using a sword even short sword, pipe,crowbar or hammer would be better than newspaper.

The problem is the bad guy will take the hit of the newspaper and run up to you and grab it from you.

As for using a baseball bat. I don't really like that idea at all  because lot of people miss the target when swinging a baseball bat. And because the baseball bat is really big it makes it very easy for the bad guy to take it away from you.

Some thing like stick, hanbo or Eskrima would be way better than a baseball bat.

Taking Filipino martial arts like Eskrima would make it very hard for bad guy to take it away from you.

It just that if you use baseball bat most likely the bad guy would take it away from you.

Take some sword training and use sword or take Eskrima.


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## drop bear (Jul 18, 2016)

A guy tried to threaten me once with a muffler. But I was working with a dog handler at the time. So he didn't really get very far.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 19, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Using a sword even short sword, pipe,crowbar or hammer would be better than newspaper.
> 
> The problem is the bad guy will take the hit of the newspaper and run up to you and grab it from you.
> 
> ...



What on earth are you talking about?

I mean… I don't even know where to start with this, but… what on earth are you talking about? None of that has anything to do with the thread, the post you quoted, or reality itself… so… huh? Using a short sword?!?

Dude…


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## Blindside (Jul 19, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Using a sword even short sword, pipe,crowbar or hammer would be better than newspaper.
> 
> The problem is the bad guy will take the hit of the newspaper and run up to you and grab it from you.
> 
> ...



I teach Kali, I'd be perfectly happy with a bat as an improvised weapon, happier than I would if I was carrying my training bag around an had a rattan stick.  Of course I have all kinds of nastier options if I had my training bag with me that I would use before a bat or a rattan stick.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 19, 2016)

There are two considerations;  First consideration is the have with you weapons that you train with and aren't afraid to use.  You should have on your person a defensive weapon such as a firearm, edged weapon, blunt weapon (such as a kubaton) or chemical weapon (such as O.C. spray).  Preferably one from each category.  

Secondly, there may be times when you can't have those weapons on your person or in close proximity.  But there are always alternatives.  For example, perhaps you can't carry a kubaton on you (for some reason such as being in a court house or secure portion of an airport or even on a plane) but you can carry a Sharpie magic marker.  It can fulfill the same purpose and effect.  There are various types of keychain attachments that don't look like edged brass knuckles but can be used as such.  One looks like a kitty cat and can be picked up at a flea market.  Throwing loose change or keys in the face of the attacker (or dirt, sand, gravel or any loose objects that can be grabbed and thrown) can provide an opportunity for counter-attack or escape.  If you're in the parking lot it isn't hard to snap off a car antenna (if you can find a car that has one).  Of course if your in a parking lot you may have a rock, small chunk of concrete, broken glass, shopping cart or some other object laying around that can be used as an improvised weapon.  If you're in a store then you've likely got an unlimited supply of projectile objects such as cans and other items that can inflict damage.  How about your belt?  In your own home you've got ash trays, butcher knives, lamps, glass in picture frames etc.  Anyone still have a land line phone with a cord?  You don't have to be a 20th degree black belt to put the base of a lamp upside someone's head.  Or put a piece of furniture between you and them while hurling large, heavy and perhaps pointy objects at them.  It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to pick up a heavy object, smash a window or mirror and select an appropriate shard of glass.  How about a chair?  

The point is that a good SD course (or SD oriented MA) should develop in you the ability to quickly size up your area and the potential weapons available.  As you go about your day look around at the objects in your immediate area.  What could you throw, slash with, hit with, stab with, distract with?  *With the proper mind set you are most likely in an environment with a veritable arsenal of lethal objects.  *


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## frank raud (Jul 19, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Using a sword even short sword, pipe,crowbar or hammer would be better than newspaper.
> 
> The problem is the bad guy will take the hit of the newspaper and run up to you and grab it from you.
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 34973 (Jul 19, 2016)

In my hayday...I carried a fishing line with a sinker weight at the end, and a loop to slip around my finger. It was definitely a deterent when flung into the skull of an attacker.

I still carry one today...but only in unfamiliar events within large crowds.

Cops only seen it as a fishing tackle and never a weapon.


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## moonhill99 (Jul 19, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> What on earth are you talking about?
> 
> I mean… I don't even know where to start with this, but… what on earth are you talking about? None of that has anything to do with the thread, the post you quoted, or reality itself… so… huh? Using a short sword?!?
> 
> Dude…



No, I was talking about if some one breaking in. Out in public most these weapons are illegal. 

If cop seen you walking down street or you used this in self defense in public in most places you will be going to jail.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> No, I was talking about if some one breaking in. Out in public most these weapons are illegal.
> 
> If cop seen you walking down street or you used this in self defense in public in most places you will be going to jail.


Weapons for a home invasion wouldn't generally be considered improvised. And in the case you get to choose what you happen to be near in your house, I'd prefer a gun. Plus I'm fairly certain the average person is more likely to have that than a short sword.


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## moonhill99 (Jul 19, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Weapons for a home invasion wouldn't generally be considered improvised. And in the case you get to choose what you happen to be near in your house, I'd prefer a gun. Plus I'm fairly certain the average person is more likely to have that than a short sword.



Well obvious in the US guns is sorta of more rule for self defense for home invasion but in countries with very strict gun laws you may need short sword, pipe, crowbar , hammer or hanbo so on.

Out in public there not lot you could have other than walking cane, flashlight like in your car or newspaper or magazine.

But if some one comes up to you on the street well you not going to have time to roll up a newspaper or magazine. And walking down the street with rolled up newspaper or magazine people will look at you strange.


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## Tired_Yeti (Jul 19, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Never liked the balled up newspaper idea for multiple reasons.
> 1: Will you really have time to roll up a newspaper?
> 2: If you do, it will be very clear to the person that you plan on using the newspaper to defend yourself. This wouldn't be an issue (it isn't for a shovel, for instance) if it wasn't for
> 3: How much do you have to train attacking someone with a newspaper where they wont be willing to just absorb the damage? I've never tried it but I imagine if I defended myself with a newspaper, they would just absorb it and continue stabbing me.
> As for a ball cap brim-I have never heard of that? How would you successfully use it to defend yourself?



I've heard of the rolled up newspaper before. It can be a fair deterrent to crime but you have rub your home invaders nose in a pile of crap on the carpet before you swat him with the paper. When you calculate in the time it will take you to drop a deuce on the carpet before you roll up the newspaper (can't roll it up first because you'll need to read the sports section while you get the deuce rolling), it just becomes a slow, messy technique.

I've use the brim of a cap to successfully defend myself on a number of occasions. I find its most effective outdoors on sunny days. I've been able to shield my eyes from the assault of hostile sun rays with ease.


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Tired_Yeti (Jul 20, 2016)

ShawnP said:


> i personally wouldnt bother with a Newspaper, but rather a Magazine with a bound edge would make for a better tool.



Black Belt magazine or Karate Illustrated would work best.


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Red Sun (Jul 20, 2016)

Tired_Yeti said:


> I've use the brim of a cap to successfully defend myself on a number of occasions.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 20, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> No, I was talking about if some one breaking in. Out in public most these weapons are illegal.
> 
> If cop seen you walking down street or you used this in self defense in public in most places you will be going to jail.



And, have you considered reading the thread first? At least the OP? This thread is about improvised weapons, not ones designed for the purpose… and your post had nothing to do with it whatsoever.


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## MAfreak (Jul 20, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> What on earth are you talking about?
> 
> I mean… I don't even know where to start with this, but… what on earth are you talking about? None of that has anything to do with the thread, the post you quoted, or reality itself… so… huh? Using a short sword?!?
> 
> Dude…



lol yes and btw a hanbo is as long as a baseball bat...
a rolled magazine (not newspaper) rammed with the tip to the throat could do damage. otherwise it would only hurt and not keep aggressive attackers from going on i guess.
my favourite improvised weapon (so basically not being one) will always be the key.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 20, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> lol yes and btw a hanbo is as long as a baseball bat…



Er… close, sure…. but a completely different architecture, weight, balance, and more… 



MAfreak said:


> a rolled magazine (not newspaper) rammed with the tip to the throat could do damage. otherwise it would only hurt and not keep aggressive attackers from going on i guess.



There are other usages, of course… 



MAfreak said:


> my favourite improvised weapon (so basically not being one) will always be the key.



Yep, I like that one.

To give my answer (as I don't think I've done that yet), I don't have one… in fact, I very deliberately don't have one. An improvised weapon is specifically that… an improvised weapon. I don't know what I'll have around me, so I don't want to rely on any one thing at all… otherwise you're moving away from "improvised weapon" (EDO - "everyday objects") to "prepared tool/weapon" (EDC - "everyday carry")… even if it wasn't designed as one initially…


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## MAfreak (Jul 20, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Er… close, sure…. but a completely different architecture, weight, balance, and more…


i meant the other guy who complained about lenght-differences.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 20, 2016)

Cool. It was quoting me that had me wondering…


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## moonhill99 (Jul 21, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> And, have you considered reading the thread first? At least the OP? This thread is about improvised weapons, not ones designed for the purpose… and your post had nothing to do with it whatsoever.



Is OP concern about self defense on the street or if some one broke into house like a home invasion.

The OP did not say what country or state so we don't know the laws in that area.

The OP said improvised weapons so I guess some country that is really strict on weapons.


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## frank raud (Jul 21, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Is OP concern about self defense on the street or if some one broke into house like a home invasion.
> 
> The OP did not say what country or state so we don't know the laws in that area.
> 
> The OP said improvised weapons so I guess some country that is really strict on weapons.


Op is from Kansas. His question was about improvised weapons, not what the laws are in some country, nor whether the application was a home invasion or being attacked on the street.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 21, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Is OP concern about self defense on the street or if some one broke into house like a home invasion.
> 
> The OP did not say what country or state so we don't know the laws in that area.
> 
> The OP said improvised weapons so I guess some country that is really strict on weapons.



And, to add to Frank's comments, as he asked earlier, in what way is a short sword an "improvised weapon"?

I stand by what I said. Your post had nothing to do with the post you quoted, the OP, or the thread.


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## BLACK (Jul 22, 2016)

: *improvised*
created and performed spontaneously or without preparation; impromptu.
"an improvised short speech"

done or made using whatever is available; makeshift.
"we slept on improvised beds"  

This is a 2 way street so it can be all encompassing...  It can be something spontaneous like the rock at your feet or something makeshift like a chain for a belt or a piece of paracord with a sharp object attached to it.    
It is my belief that it is an integral part of the discipline of preserving oneself and all that is around, yet it is something that is commonly overlooked and disregarded.  

Another way to look at it is the body is an improvised weapon as it can be fashioned in a spontaneous manner to address a threat or it can be fashioned in a makeshift manner to address a threat. Improvisation paved the way for many of the different styles and techniques so I would say wholeheartedly that it is an integral part of the martial way.


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## ShawnP (Jul 22, 2016)

can we get back on topic here and stop defining the word improvised, we all know what it means and the follow up posts were to get people to reply to the original post not continue to post definitions.


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## frank raud (Jul 23, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> And, to add to Frank's comments, as he asked earlier, in what way is a short sword an "improvised weapon"?.


   Moonbeam never answers my questions.


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## Tired_Yeti (Jul 27, 2016)

Personally, I see value in training in some traditional weapons. Specifically, "sticks" of various sizes. I think training in Bo, Jo, and Tanbo could be very useful. If you stop and look around, you'll notice that we are surrounded by sticks everywhere. Just the other day, I was brushing the side of the pool and thought about what I'd do if 2 or 3 robbers hoped the fence. One pinch and pull and the brush end comes off the pole and I essentially have bo. I could just wildly swing and poke at them like a panicked money or I could use the weapon properly if I've trained with it adequately. Broom handles, shovels, rakes, the ice scraper in your car, the squeegee you wipe the windows with, etc. can all be weapons.
Personally, I don't want to spend time on sai, 3-section staff, or nunchaku because I don't see much relevance to improvised weapons in my environment.

Meh...just some musings of mine.


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

How about an everyday item like a purse?  Well a coin purse on a strap full of small change?  Unless you want to use the lead shop sap, of course )))


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

More about the coin purse and saps...


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)




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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

You've posted that video on a few different threads now, what are you selling?


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You've posted that video on a few different threads now, what are you selling?



Sorry if I seem too active... Did not mean to push anything on you ))) I am new to this forum.  On the other hand it's true I am big fan of nagaika whips in terms of collecting, practicing and yes, selling them.  Is it ok here?


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Sorry if I seem too active... Did not mean to push anything on you ))) I am new to this forum.  On the other hand it's true I am big fan of nagaika whips in terms of collecting, practicing and yes, selling them.  Is it ok here?



No worries, it's just that most of us will click on to the 'new post' page rather than specific sections so we read a lot of different things, if the same thing is posted on a lot of sections it looks like you are selling something lol.
I will say though that whips aren't a common weapon in the UK, it would also be illegal to carry one in public for self defence and there's no other use here for the type of whips you like. Riding whips especially long schooling ones are different though


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> No worries, it's just that most of us will click on to the 'new post' page rather than specific sections so we read a lot of different things, if the same thing is posted on a lot of sections it looks like you are selling something lol.
> I will say though that whips aren't a common weapon in the UK, it would also be illegal to carry one in public for self defence and there's no other use here for the type of whips you like. Riding whips especially long schooling ones are different though



The whips like I use are traditional cossack riding tool and combat weapons all in one.  They are also used by Systema (Russain Martial Art) practitioners for training self defense techniques and even massage!


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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Sorry if I seem too active... Did not mean to push anything on you ))) I am new to this forum.  On the other hand it's true I am big fan of nagaika whips in terms of collecting, practicing and yes, selling them.  Is it ok here?



Liking them? Cool. Collecting, practicing? All good. Selling them? Sure… but not here. That is, unless you have paid for advertising space (as some members, such as Brian Van Cis have done)… the ebay link in your profile page may go against the terms and conditions on advertising you agreed to when you joined… I understand it can be seen as an oversight, but I'd get it checked by running it past the management if I was you…


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

I am not selling anything here )) having ebay account is not an offence I suppose (most people here have one I am sure).  Not in the profile of course ))) Thanks for telling.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2016)

Not a problem. As I said, I'd send a message through to the management (use the "Contact Us" tab at the bottom of the page) to see about their take… simply having it can be seen as tacit (implied) advertising… or they might say it's all cool. But I'd check to be sure.


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

But coming back to the subject ... how about an idea of using the coin purse in self-defence?  Can anyone share the actual experience?


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

I don't know of anyone ever who has used a 'coin purse' let alone has one, wouldn't even know where to get one.


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know of anyone ever who has used a 'coin purse' let alone has one, wouldn't even know where to get one.



I understand, but how's that for a self defense idea?


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## Kiki (Sep 6, 2016)

A coin purse can definitely provide a surprising amount of power.
One former prison guard carried just a roll of nickels in a glove as a sap and said it was a common practice amongst his coworkers.

Legally- the key, as with many improvised saps, in the U.S. would be whether or not you were judged as having carried it 'as' a weapon.  If so you're guilty of a crime just for carrying it.
So a coin purse with some assorted change, your keys, a reasonable trinket or two (bottle opener), etc. would more than likely be fine legally for carry purposes.  Meanwhile if it's filled with a pound and a half of quarters, you're probably going to have trouble explaining it away after defending yourself with it.


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2016)

Bringing out a coin purse could actually start a fight, men who carry coin purses appear miserly and finicky, like an old maid.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 6, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Never liked the balled up newspaper idea for multiple reasons.
> 1: Will you really have time to roll up a newspaper?
> 2: If you do, it will be very clear to the person that you plan on using the newspaper to defend yourself. This wouldn't be an issue (it isn't for a shovel, for instance) if it wasn't for
> 3: How much do you have to train attacking someone with a newspaper where they wont be willing to just absorb the damage? I've never tried it but I imagine if I defended myself with a newspaper, they would just absorb it and continue stabbing me.
> As for a ball cap brim-I have never heard of that? How would you successfully use it to defend yourself?


The concept with the rolled-up newspaper would be to carry it that way, not to roll it up at the moment of imminent attack. And the main advantage it gives is extended reach. It also provides something you can hit with, with very little chance of injuring yourself and which can absorb damage (for instance, from a knife).


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 6, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> There are two considerations;  First consideration is the have with you weapons that you train with and aren't afraid to use.  You should have on your person a defensive weapon such as a firearm, edged weapon, blunt weapon (such as a kubaton) or chemical weapon (such as O.C. spray).  Preferably one from each category.
> 
> Secondly, there may be times when you can't have those weapons on your person or in close proximity.  But there are always alternatives.  For example, perhaps you can't carry a kubaton on you (for some reason such as being in a court house or secure portion of an airport or even on a plane) but you can carry a Sharpie magic marker.  It can fulfill the same purpose and effect.  There are various types of keychain attachments that don't look like edged brass knuckles but can be used as such.  One looks like a kitty cat and can be picked up at a flea market.  Throwing loose change or keys in the face of the attacker (or dirt, sand, gravel or any loose objects that can be grabbed and thrown) can provide an opportunity for counter-attack or escape.  If you're in the parking lot it isn't hard to snap off a car antenna (if you can find a car that has one).  Of course if your in a parking lot you may have a rock, small chunk of concrete, broken glass, shopping cart or some other object laying around that can be used as an improvised weapon.  If you're in a store then you've likely got an unlimited supply of projectile objects such as cans and other items that can inflict damage.  How about your belt?  In your own home you've got ash trays, butcher knives, lamps, glass in picture frames etc.  Anyone still have a land line phone with a cord?  You don't have to be a 20th degree black belt to put the base of a lamp upside someone's head.  Or put a piece of furniture between you and them while hurling large, heavy and perhaps pointy objects at them.  It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to pick up a heavy object, smash a window or mirror and select an appropriate shard of glass.  How about a chair?
> 
> The point is that a good SD course (or SD oriented MA) should develop in you the ability to quickly size up your area and the potential weapons available.  As you go about your day look around at the objects in your immediate area.  What could you throw, slash with, hit with, stab with, distract with?  *With the proper mind set you are most likely in an environment with a veritable arsenal of lethal objects.  *


It has been several years since I gave up carrying any of those categories on a regular basis. For those of us who travel by plane, they get taken away from us if we try to carry them on, and a weapon you think you have with you but don't (because you couldn't take it on the plane) is worse than the weapon you don't even think about.

So, I focus on learning and teaching principles that can be applied with what can be found - as you suggest, getting good at finding weapons in what's around you.


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## Kiki (Sep 6, 2016)

Agreed.  People carrying around tactical spikes, etc. are just asking for trouble (legally) from my perspective.
Even if you use it in self defense a lawyer is going to love that you were carrying something that only has one purpose, to hurt someone.
That being said of course I love well made weapons and don't begrudge someone carrying one.
I carry a sap once in a while just because I spent so much time researching them for my book


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## KangTsai (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't need a weapon because I have a black belt.












In my pants.


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## Russian Whips (Sep 10, 2016)

Speaking about belts... and purses.  Both can enhance the striking power if one knows how to use them ))


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Speaking about belts... and purses.  Both can enhance the striking power if one knows how to use them ))


I'm having trouble imagining an attack that leaves me enough time to remove my belt. I suppose there are some belts that might be easier to remove, and some pants that have large enough belt loops to have no chance of snagging, but I'd expect most folks would end up with their belt half-off about the time they needed it...at best. And anyone who has a wide waist is likely to have to do the rest of their defense without taking a step, as their pants become leg shackles.


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## frank raud (Sep 10, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> The concept with the rolled-up newspaper would be to carry it that way, not to roll it up at the moment of imminent attack. And the main advantage it gives is extended reach. It also provides something you can hit with, with very little chance of injuring yourself and which can absorb damage (for instance, from a knife).


Perhaps Tez3 can tell us of her experiences(if any) with the Millwall Brick.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 10, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm having trouble imagining an attack that leaves me enough time to remove my belt. I suppose there are some belts that might be easier to remove, and some pants that have large enough belt loops to have no chance of snagging, but I'd expect most folks would end up with their belt half-off about the time they needed it...at best. And anyone who has a wide waist is likely to have to do the rest of their defense without taking a step, as their pants become leg shackles.


I see it more as a situation where you know someone is in your house/school/some other place, so you take it off while waiting in case they stumble on you (assuming you have no better weapons nearby and don't want to risk finding one). Personally I would prefer to have a knife or gun nearby but I guess that's not always possible.

Or you happen to have rope on you, then you can use the belt techniques with rope.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I see it more as a situation where you know someone is in your house/school/some other place, so you take it off while waiting in case they stumble on you (assuming you have no better weapons nearby and don't want to risk finding one). Personally I would prefer to have a knife or gun nearby but I guess that's not always possible.
> 
> Or you happen to have rope on you, then you can use the belt techniques with rope.


That's reasonable.


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## Russian Whips (Sep 10, 2016)

In Russia belt, espetially military or navy one with square brass buckle used to be very common unconventional weapon of the streets.  Sometimes the buckle would be made heavier by melting some lead into it


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## Kiki (Sep 10, 2016)

The Peaky Blindes were famous for their use of belts as weapons too.


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## frank raud (Sep 10, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm having trouble imagining an attack that leaves me enough time to remove my belt. I suppose there are some belts that might be easier to remove, and some pants that have large enough belt loops to have no chance of snagging, but I'd expect most folks would end up with their belt half-off about the time they needed it...at best. And anyone who has a wide waist is likely to have to do the rest of their defense without taking a step, as their pants become leg shackles.


"Some" people who, let's say expect to be in an altercation, only put their belt  through two  loops on their pants to make it faster to remove. I'm told the US military khaki webbing belt makes a great flail.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It has been several years since I gave up carrying any of those categories on a regular basis. For those of us who travel by plane, they get taken away from us if we try to carry them on, and a weapon you think you have with you but don't (because you couldn't take it on the plane) is worse than the weapon you don't even think about.
> 
> So, I focus on learning and teaching principles that can be applied with what can be found - as you suggest, getting good at finding weapons in what's around you.



No disrespect intended, I can't agree with your post.  Having a Sharpie magic marker is perfectly acceptable on an airplane.  So is having a pocket of loose change.  If one is adept with the cane as a defensive weapon then you can carry one on a plane as well.  For improvised weapons we need to collectively think outside the box.  You can wear a belt onto an airplane as well.  Or a shoe or a magazine.  Any of which can be used as an improvised weapon.

Are they as effective as having an edged weapon, firearm, or throwing star?  Probably not, but that's why they are improvised to the situation.  And since they are likely to fall into the category of use in a 'sterile' environment there is an element of surprise that could work in your favor.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It has been several years since I gave up carrying any of those categories on a regular basis. For those of us who travel by plane, they get taken away from us if we try to carry them on, and a weapon you think you have with you but don't (because you couldn't take it on the plane) is worse than the weapon you don't even think about.
> 
> So, I focus on learning and teaching principles that can be applied with what can be found - as you suggest, getting good at finding weapons in what's around you.



Can't really agree with the first part.
You can carry a pen on a plane. I carry one of those indestructible metal pens all the time. I actually have one that you twist to write (and it writes very nicely), but the clicker on top is OC spray. You can carry a cane. When traveling domestic, my gun goes in the checked bag. I put it back on in the bathroom after picking up our bags.


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## Tez3 (Sep 17, 2016)

Now that wasn't meant to happen, double post........


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It has been several years since I gave up carrying any of those categories on a regular basis. For those of us who travel by plane, they get taken away from us if we try to carry them on, and a weapon you think you have with you but don't (because you couldn't take it on the plane) is worse than the weapon you don't even think about.
> 
> So, I focus on learning and teaching principles that can be applied with what can be found - as you suggest, getting good at finding weapons in what's around you.


@Kong Soo Do  - what, precisely are you disagreeing with? That weapons will be taken away by TSA when I'm traveling? That thinking you have a weapon you don't have with you is bad?

I can't see what's to disagree with in this post, especially since I was agreeing with something you said about using what's around you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Can't really agree with the first part.
> You can carry a pen on a plane. I carry one of those indestructible metal pens all the time. I actually have one that you twist to write (and it writes very nicely), but the clicker on top is OC spray. You can carry a cane. When traveling domestic, my gun goes in the checked bag. I put it back on in the bathroom after picking up our bags.


I do sometimes carry a cane, and most of mine were selected because they'd be usable as weapons, so you have a point there. I always have pens that would be usable as weapons, but I guess I view them as pens first, and among those "what's around you" weapons, so wasn't looking at them as part of that list. As for the firearm, I travel to too many places, with too many different laws. In many, I wouldn't be able to even have it in the seminar room with me (some states restrict concealed weapons at events where people pay to attend), so I'd have to leave it in the car (and sometimes I don't have one, so have no place to leave it). It just ends up being too much of a logistical nightmare to carry consistently, so I made the choice to get used to not having it, rather than expecting it to be there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> No disrespect intended, I can't agree with your post.  Having a Sharpie magic marker is perfectly acceptable on an airplane.  So is having a pocket of loose change.  If one is adept with the cane as a defensive weapon then you can carry one on a plane as well.  For improvised weapons we need to collectively think outside the box.  You can wear a belt onto an airplane as well.  Or a shoe or a magazine.  Any of which can be used as an improvised weapon.
> 
> Are they as effective as having an edged weapon, firearm, or throwing star?  Probably not, but that's why they are improvised to the situation.  And since they are likely to fall into the category of use in a 'sterile' environment there is an element of surprise that could work in your favor.


Most of what you're referring to is what I'd put in the "what's around you" category, rather than considering it part of the list I referred to. I typically have a couple of useful metal pens with me, sometimes my cane (if my legs are troublesome), and things like magazines are often nearby.


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## Juany118 (Sep 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It has been several years since I gave up carrying any of those categories on a regular basis. For those of us who travel by plane, they get taken away from us if we try to carry them on, and a weapon you think you have with you but don't (because you couldn't take it on the plane) is worse than the weapon you don't even think about.
> 
> So, I focus on learning and teaching principles that can be applied with what can be found - as you suggest, getting good at finding weapons in what's around you.


Yeah, I remember many moons ago having to leave my kubaton key chain at  the security check at PHL.  That made me become a huge fan of what are sometimes called tactical pens.  I don't get the ones with window breaks or "dna catchers", LED flashlight tips etc, simply a good solid pen that is wide enough and long enough for a full grip (meaning a twist open) that is made out of aircraft grade aluminum.  This is the one I currently carry all the time,  though it does go into the "pen pouch" inside my back back I use as carry on.  UZI Tactical Defender Pen 8  Kubaton (Black) TACPEN-8 - Blade HQ  in the pen pouch next to this I will have my my Mont Blanc (with a blue cartridge vs black).  The sizes aren't wildly different so the Uzi takes on a less "offensive" appearance.  Yeah I try to be sneaky but the Uzi's,   being made in China are still decent quality and like $20 so even if it does get taken its not a big loss.

What I like about them is that I can take it to places where you can't bring a knife say the butt end is a kubaton and you can use the tip to puncture if suddenly you think lethal force is justified.  Yeah it can be hard to kill someone with a pen, but the nature of it makes it a PAINFUL puncture and it is far more likely your assailant will notice it, even in the middle of a high energy encounter, than a sharp knife and that pain, followed by the blood, can be enough to make the assault stop.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I do sometimes carry a cane, and most of mine were selected because they'd be usable as weapons, so you have a point there. I always have pens that would be usable as weapons, but I guess I view them as pens first, and among those "what's around you" weapons, so wasn't looking at them as part of that list. As for the firearm, I travel to too many places, with too many different laws. In many, I wouldn't be able to even have it in the seminar room with me (some states restrict concealed weapons at events where people pay to attend), so I'd have to leave it in the car (and sometimes I don't have one, so have no place to leave it). It just ends up being too much of a logistical nightmare to carry consistently, so I made the choice to get used to not having it, rather than expecting it to be there.



They *are* pens first. That's the main reason we can carry them. 
I have a hapkido cane. They're basically the same as any other cane, except the crook is more open, for hooking things.
Most states have reciprocity laws, and my permit is valid. Other states won't honor it, but will issue one of their own. A few don't endorse the US Constitution. There is a small book (big pamphlet?), updated annually, written by a lawyer who specializes in gun laws that let's me stay legal.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> They *are* pens first. That's the main reason we can carry them.
> I have a hapkido cane. They're basically the same as any other cane, except the crook is more open, for hooking things.
> Most states have reciprocity laws, and my permit is valid. Other states won't honor it, but will issue one of their own. A few don't endorse the US Constitution. There is a small book (big pamphlet?), updated annually, written by a lawyer who specializes in gun laws that let's me stay legal.


As I said, the biggest issue for me isn't reciprocity (when I lived in SC, I had permits that covered nearly all states). The issue is that many states' laws mean me leaving the gun behind most of the day, and sometimes I have no good place to leave it (already checked out of hotel room, not going back to hotel before flight, no rental car). It happens often enough that I just decided to change my habits. Add to that the frequency with which I arrive at the airport too late to check a bag because of scheduling (which, if I have my firearm, means I don't get to go home), and it was just not feasible.


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## Juany118 (Sep 17, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> They *are* pens first. That's the main reason we can carry them.
> I have a hapkido cane. They're basically the same as any other cane, except the crook is more open, for hooking things.
> Most states have reciprocity laws, and my permit is valid. Other states won't honor it, but will issue one of their own. A few don't endorse the US Constitution. There is a small book (big pamphlet?), updated annually, written by a lawyer who specializes in gun laws that let's me stay legal.



You can also be anal retentive like I am and search online for the Attorney General Declarations authorizing reciprocity.  I used to work with an officer (since resigned) who didn't even know such reciprocity exists.  Be cautious of one thing, some States are cracking down on out of State Residents getting Permits because of a PA case where a person who had their PA revoked applied for a New Hampshire permit because they did not have access to the data that said he couldn't conceal carry.  He figured he could still do it, got arrest and conviction was upheld on appeal.  States don't want to have to pay to have their people 10 States away testify in multiple Appealate proceedings apparently lol.


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## Juany118 (Sep 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I always have pens that would be usable as weapons, but I guess I view them as pens first, and among those "what's around you" weapons, so wasn't looking at them as part of that list. .



While I don't study Doug Marcaida's system, this video by him is why I fell in love with Kali.  It really changed my view of my environment and a few times it may have saved me pain at work because I used this mindset to keep suspects in particular locations or moved items that would otherwise be ignored.  I used to think exactly the same way but this video (as I said in my paranoia post in the FMA forums) illustrates my current mind set.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 18, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> While I don't study Doug Marcaida's system, this video by him is why I fell in love with Kali.  It really changed my view of my environment and a few times it may have saved me pain at work because I used this mindset to keep suspects in particular locations or moved items that would otherwise be ignored.  I used to think exactly the same way but this video (as I said in my paranoia post in the FMA forums) illustrates my current mind set.


Let me clarify, it's not that I don't see them as weapons. It's that in replying to the post I was referring to things I carry specifically as weapons, so I didn't count them against that list because they are among the items I referred to as being "what's around you". When I select pens to carry, I normally ensure there's at least one that's a viable weapon (sturdy metal). When I buy a cane, I always think about how it would perform as a weapon (and even have two similar to the Hapkido cane mentioned earlier, bought from Ed Martin of the Bujinkan).


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## Juany118 (Sep 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Let me clarify, it's not that I don't see them as weapons. It's that in replying to the post I was referring to things I carry specifically as weapons, so I didn't count them against that list because they are among the items I referred to as being "what's around you". When I select pens to carry, I normally ensure there's at least one that's a viable weapon (sturdy metal). When I buy a cane, I always think about how it would perform as a weapon (and even have two similar to the Hapkido cane mentioned earlier, bought from Ed Martin of the Bujinkan).


Oh I figured that but...how do I describe my mind set now?  Okay, here we go.  Picture walking into a room for the first time and looking at the objects and then having a Robocopesque LCD readout as follows.

Candle stick: hold candles, blunt force trauma.
Pen: writing implement, puncture.
Cordless phone: Hand set: blunt force trauma, charging cable: capture, restraint, strangulation.

It's automatic, almost subconscious, otherwise i would call it paranoia.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Kiki (Sep 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> While I don't study Doug Marcaida's system, this video by him is why I fell in love with Kali.  It really changed my view of my environment and a few times it may have saved me pain at work because I used this mindset to keep suspects in particular locations or moved items that would otherwise be ignored.  I used to think exactly the same way but this video (as I said in my paranoia post in the FMA forums) illustrates my current mind set.



LOL- I came across this video just this weekend.


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## Buka (Sep 19, 2016)

As an Airport Police Officer, I just wanted you guys to know, I'm watching you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Oh I figured that but...how do I describe my mind set now?  Okay, here we go.  Picture walking into a room for the first time and looking at the objects and then having a Robocopesque LCD readout as follows.
> 
> Candle stick: hold candles, blunt force trauma.
> Pen: writing implement, puncture.
> ...


"Otherwise"?


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