# Personal insights from Siu Nim Tao practice



## Marnetmar (Jun 16, 2017)

-The tan-wu-fok section must be practiced extra slowly to develop proper springy forward pressure
-The sensation of drawing the wu sau back towards the body is that of "going forward without going forward"
-Likewise any motion in which the hand is being drawn back toward the body must be practiced far more slowly and diligently than ones where the hand is going away from the body for this reason
-(In all forms) Imagine the elbows and hands as laser pointers focused on the centerline at all times, even when the elbows and hands are not in the center. Practice every motion with the intent of coming back to the center.
-The form must be practiced with no force because when pressure is received it will be absorbed into the first point of tension in the body. If there is no tension in the body then it will go all the way into the ground.

Thoughts? Right? Wrong?


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## Danny T (Jun 16, 2017)

It is also:
- About feeling tension in your body and how to release it.
- About feeling the changes in your center of gravity with both your breathing and with the movements of your arms.


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## Parky (Jun 16, 2017)

-(In all forms) Imagine the elbows and hands as laser pointers focused on the centerline at all times, even when the elbows and hands are not in the center. Practice every motion with the intent of coming back to the center.
-The form must be practiced with no force because when pressure is received it will be absorbed into the first point of tension in the body. If there is no tension in the body then it will go all the way into the ground.

Thoughts? Right? Wrong?[/QUOTE]

Great comments, In My Opinion, especially comments on Tension...Spot On!!! I would modify first statement to read, elbows and hands as laser pointers focused on the opponent's Center of Mass, but that's just how I see things. Excellent comment mentioning the *elbows,* as well as the hands, pointing like lasers, a subtle but important point!!!


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## ShortBridge (Jun 16, 2017)

Marnetmar said:


> Thoughts? Right? Wrong?



Certainly not wrong. Some very good insights.

I personally avoid words like "always" in wing Chun. Pulling back more slowly is a good idea for the reasons you say, but I'm not sure it will always be necessary (for example)

There are lots of different things to play in the form and I have different energies that play it with a different times, depending on what I am working on.


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## LFJ (Jun 16, 2017)

Marnetmar said:


> -The form must be practiced with no force because when pressure is received it will be absorbed into the first point of tension in the body.



This part is not making sense.

How do you strike for real? Is it still bad to issue force then?

Can't you punch/palm strike without the reaction force getting stuck in your arm?

Why would it be bad to practice those mechanics in the form, then?



> If there is no tension in the body then it will go all the way into the ground.



I think you will find it goes to the ground if proper use of tension is made.

If there's no tension in your body at all, you can't even issue force, much less redirect anything.


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## Parky (Jun 16, 2017)

I personally believe that learning to 'Release Tension' is a big piece of SNT practice, as well as standing in a manner that engages the least amount of musculature to hold us up. I think this is why the first form in WCK is essentially done with the arms only. It's hard enough learning to release tension while just standing. Stepping and Turning and Speedy movements make 'Tension Release' all the more difficult to feel and maintain...thus this is done in more advanced forms. Of course there is more than Tension Release being practiced in the first form and there is 'Internal' movement happening along with moving our arms...and other things going on...but for me 'Tension Release' is a biggy. Of Course opinions vary and that's just mine.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 16, 2017)

Marnetmar said:


> Thoughts? Right? Wrong?


In the other threat that talk about the difference between boxing punch and CMA punch:

- In boxing, when you punch your right hand, your left hand may be static.
- In CMA, when your punch your right hand, you pull back your left hand. This punch out and pull back "coordination" will cause a body rotation which can help to generate power.

Since SLT is the 1st form taught in the WC system. This punch out right hand and keep left hand "static" training will develop bad habit and will require extra training to remove it later on (muscle group isolation -> body unification).

All power generated from the counter force from the ground. The harder that you step down to the ground, the more counter force that you can borrow from the ground. This is a such important power generation concept. WC just does not address it enough during the beginner level training.

A twisting bullet can generate more power than a non-twisting bullet. In most of the WC punches, the arm, elbow, fist are "not twisting".


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## LFJ (Jun 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In CMA, when your punch your right hand, you pull back your left hand. This punch out and pull back "coordination" will cause a body rotation which can help to generate power.



VT doesn't do this or use big rotational punches.



> This punch out right hand and keep left hand "static" training will develop bad habit and will require extra training to remove it later on.



No.



> All power generated from the counter force from the ground. The harder that you step down to the ground, the more counter force that you can borrow from the ground. This is a such important power generation concept. WC just does not address it enough during the beginner level training.



You have not experienced beginner level WC training, much less anything beyond.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 16, 2017)

Marnetmar said:


> *You* have not experienced beginner level WC training, much less anything beyond.


Let's stay on the topic and leave "YOU" and "I" out of this discussion.


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## LFJ (Jun 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let's stay to the topic and leave "YOU" and "I" out of this discussion.



Impossible. We can only speak from our own experience.

If you have no experience, you shouldn't be discussing the topic as if you do.

Literally _everything_ you have to say about WC and what problems you find with it is/are totally inaccurate, regardless of lineage.

No one ever knows where you're getting your ideas about WC, though you have claimed some teachers directly under Yip Man in the past. But, why then does _no one_ think you have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to WC?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 16, 2017)

1. Body unification - all body pieces move and stop at the same time.
2. Body rotation - body push/pull arm.
3. Borrow force from the ground - bend knee, straight knee.

can be seen in this clip. All force are generated from the ground, go up through leg, move from hip to chest, and then reach to the arm.

If you disagree with me, please tell me what's wrong in this SLT training clip.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 16, 2017)

So, I don't know what lineage the guy in the clip is. He might be from a really interesting branch that I would love to know more about, but that aside, there is a lot wrong with it by Yip Man standards.

The isolation in YM Si Liu Tao serves a purpose and I have no evidence to support that it creates bad habits that will require extra effort to overcome later on.

I won't get into "you" and where you get your information. There are lots of systems and lots of variations of Wing Chun. Yip Man pedagogy is not "wrong" and doesn't need to be modified or improved upon. If you don't buy into it, don't do it, but if you don't understand it, it would be great for you to stop tearing it down as if you did.


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the other threat that talk about the difference between boxing punch and CMA punch:
> 
> - In boxing, when you punch your right hand, your left hand may be static.
> - In CMA, when your punch your right hand, you pull back your left hand. This punch out and pull back "coordination" will cause a body rotation which can help to generate power.
> ...



John, I had to _disagree_ with the post quoted above for several reasons. 

_First of all, _like _LFJ,_ I noted in the basic VT/WC punch, in the lineage I train, does *not* extend the punch forcefully while simultaneously retracting the other arm with _equal _force, and we do not have to use body rotation to augment power unless we are turning as we punch. So the practice of punching with one arm at a time at the beginning of our Siu Nim Tau form is essential training, and not training something that must be "unlearned" later.

FWI: In my lineage, even when launching a series of linked "chain punches" the extending punch uses an explosive "yang" force, while the withdrawing punch flows back softly with a  "yin" energy so that our opponent cannot "ride the force back in to strike us. And, of course, the shoulders although elastic, do not do an overt rotation as a method of generating power.

_
Secondly, _you state: _All power generated from the counter force from the ground. The harder that you step down to the ground, the more counter force that you can borrow from the ground._ In the VT/WC I have trained, our punch isn't powered by a vertical weight drop or a hard step. You do see that in other CMA. In WC/VT our power generation is different.

Of course, stepping _can _add power, but we do not emphasize rising and sinking  the way many traditional Chinese martial arts do. _Fou, chum, tun, tou_ is not a central theme in my lineage. You _may _find it in some VT/WC but it is_ muted,_ unless the WC is blended with other arts, such as Eddie Chong adding elements of Bak Mei to his WC.   

_
And lastly,_ twisting does not increase the power of a bullet. Gunmakers learned to rifle their barrels to increase the accuracy of bullets. The rotation gyroscopically increases stability which in turn improves accuracy at range. The same is true of other projectiles such as arrows, etc. That is not the same as powering a punch!

Now, twisting or torquing is one method often used to dig-in, penetrate and release power as the punch drives into it's target. Fair enough. In VT/WC we generally employ other methods to good effect.

LFJ had a point. It's probably not helpful to _generalize_ using concepts held dear in many other CMA when speaking of WC/VT. We often do things differently, but _different isn't automatically wrong. _And, come to think of it... t_hat's_ a point I'd like to remind LFJ of as well!!!


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1. Body unification - all body pieces move and stop at the same time.
> 2. Body rotation - body push/pull arm.
> 3. Borrow force from the ground - bend knee, straight knee.
> 
> ...



I see way too much body movement for the lineage I train. He bounces up and down like a basketball and wriggles like a snake-charmer! Most lineages ....of _Yip Man Ving Tsun _anyway, minimize rising and falling movements. This is _not_ our method of power generation.

This reminds me of the classic _fou, chum, tun, tou _ -- float, sink, swallow, spit movement of so many other CMA. I won't say that they are totally absent from the VT/WT I've experienced, but if present such movements are very restrained, emerging more as a by-product of natural, flowing movement.






Now agree or disagree, I like this video better!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 16, 2017)

geezer said:


> So the practice of punching with one arm at a time at the beginning of our Siu Nim Tau form is essential training, and not training something that must be "unlearned" later.


When you throw "chain punches", your opponent moves back, and your fist can't reach to your opponent's face, you will have 2 options here. You can pull your

1. right punch back, and send your left punch out.
2. left hand back. This will generate an extra body rotation, it will give you some extra reach, and your right fist may be able to hit on your opponent's face.

If you are used to do 1 with "square shoulder - chest and arm are in a 90 degree angle", you may not feel comfortable with 2. You may not know that your fist can still hit on your opponent's face if you just make that extra body rotation. In other words, your right punch may give up a bit too soon.

This is a general speed vs. power issue. Whether you want to throw multiple fast punches, or you just want to throw 1 knock down punch. Both are equal important and both methods should be introduced during the beginner training stage.

I have always believed that "power generation training" should be before the "speed generation training". IMO, 2 should be trained before 1 during the SNT beginner level training stage.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 16, 2017)

geezer said:


> It's probably not helpful to _generalize_ using concepts held dear in many other CMA when speaking of WC/VT.





ShortBridge said:


> If you don't understand it, it would be great for you to stop tearing it down as if you did.


If we just talk about WC and nothing else, the

- centerline theory,
- block and strike back at the same time,
- both hands can have the same reach,

are 100% correct and superior than the other CMA systems (such as long fist, preying mantis, Baji, ...). It's pretty much like "bible talk" and there won't be anything worthwhile to discuss there. But if we talk about "power vs. speed", there can be some valid trade off.

Can we modify the WC training so the "power generation" can be improved? Can a WC punch be as powerful as a boxing punch? IMO, it can.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 16, 2017)

I for one, certainly didn't say they were superior. I said that it was the system I trained and spoke of various pedagogy.

The OP didn't ask if you thought Wing Chun was valid or how it should be changed. He shared what he was focusing on when he played Si Lim Tao.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 16, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> The OP didn't ask if you thought Wing Chun was valid or how it should be changed.





Marnetmar said:


> Thoughts? Right? Wrong?


The OP asked about Thoughts? Right? Wrong?

IMO, the

- "body unification - body push/pull arm" training is correct.
- "move arm only while freeze the body" training is wrong.

I like compound training. I don't like isolation training.


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we just talk about WC and nothing else, the
> 
> - centerline theory,
> - block and strike back at the same time,
> ...



Nothing is 100% correct. What you have in fact is a _cost-benefit _trade off. With every choice, you have certain costs or liabilities, and in return certain gains or benefits. You have pointed out certain costs to the choices made in VT/WC. There are benefits as well. Not the least of which is how it integrates as a _system. _

For example, in my VT, we favor a back-weighted stance. One of the _costs _of this stance is that you advance with short, rapid, shuffling steps and can't easily lunge forward to follow a retreating opponent who moves out of range, as in the scenario you described above. So rather than break our structure to rotate and commit our shoulder into the punch, as you suggest, we can just raise our unweighted front leg and kick, since our opponent is 1. defending high and may be open below, and since 2. our leg can reach beyond our punch _without _body rotation. Also, since "every kick is a step" in VT/WC, the kick brings us forward and back into striking range for the next punch. All without compromising our structure and abandoning our system. These are the _benefits._

If it _works _for you, then you can assume the benefits outweigh the costs. If not, you need to either improve the quality of your technique or find another method with a better cost-benefit ratio ._..for you._



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Can we modify the WC training so the "power generation" can be improved? IMO, it can.



_Cost-benefit_ question again. I have found that WC/VT punches can be_ quite _powerful. When well done they do incorporate full-body power generation. If you still need more power, you can incorporate other methods used in other systems. But if those methods involve bigger movements, turning, leaning or heavily committing body weight into the punch, that will come with a _cost _that needs to be considered.


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## KPM (Jun 16, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> So, I don't know what lineage the guy in the clip is. He might be from a really interesting branch that I would love to know more about, but that aside, there is a lot wrong with it by Yip Man standards.
> 
> .



This is Cheng Kwong, and he does his own thing!  I wouldn't attribute that to anyone's lineage but his own!  He learned from an Ip Man student (not sure which) and he learned Weng Chun from Wai Yan.  But these big exaggerated movements are his own.  He passed this on to Andreas Hoffman, and you can see the same overly exaggerated movements in the way Hoffman does the Weng Chun forms.


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The OP asked about Thoughts? Right? Wrong?
> IMO, the
> - "body unification - body push/pull arm" training is correct.
> - "move arm only while freeze the body" training is wrong.
> I like compound training. I don't like isolation training.



In the video you posted, the commentator/trainer noted that most workout routines have a combination of isolation and compound training methods. So does VT/WC. However, like you I prefer methods involve total body movement ...both arms, stepping, turning, kicks and leg work. And, I would agree with you, that even among the forms, SNT involves isolating movements. ...for simplicity, for clarity, to build a foundation. _Is that wrong?_


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## ShortBridge (Jun 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The OP asked about Thoughts? Right? Wrong?
> 
> IMO, the
> 
> ...



I think he was asking people who also practice Wing Chun if he was thinking right or wrong about his form. I don't think he was asking "hey people on the internet who don't like Wing Chun, do you think Wing Chun is right or wrong?"

But, hey, why not hang out in a forum dedicated to something you have distain for and hijack discusions on something they care about? I mean, you gotta be you,right?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 16, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> who don't like Wing Chun, ...


I may like WC more than you think. Many of my "entering strategies - such as protect center from inside out" came from the WC system.


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2017)

Gotta say that even though I often disagree with what John says about WC, he is a very experienced Chinese martial artist and his comments always get me thinking. We need more people like that on this forum.


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## DanT (Jun 16, 2017)

I can only speak from my experience in various wing chun lineages. The first form emphasizes isolation of technique so that you have no excuses. At a basic level, you're standing still and just moving your arms, so there is no excuse to do the technique wrong. 

The punch in wing chun (unlike in other systems such as long fist, N. Shaolin etc) uses "Jiang Dai Lik" (low elbow power) as its primary method of power generation. This is not to say that wing chun does not use hip power, it can, and often does, but the primary source of power is generated from the thrusting of the elbow via the triceps muscle. In terms of learning total body unification and movement, Chum Kiu emphasizes that. Not to mention various turning stance drills. The usage of Jiang Dai Lik can then be transmitted to many other techniques (tan sao for example). Jiang Dai Lik can be combined with hip power to increase the range of the strike and the power via a rotation of the hips, often coordinated with a step.


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## Parky (Jun 17, 2017)

'This is not to say that wing chun does not use hip power, it can, and often does, but the primary source of power is generated from the thrusting of the elbow via the triceps muscle.'

Not to nitpick, but I respectfully have to disagree with the statement above. It is the muscle groups in the shoulder area that should be powering the elbow and in turn the upper arm. And to use the word 'Thrusting' of the elbow implies that we want to push the elbow forward. I would argue that instead we want the elbow to rotate about the centerpoint of the shoulder. How  we 'Think' about how we are moving our body affects what muscle groups engage to actually move parts of our body. This 'Way of Thinking' is part of the training in our formwork. For example in the Wing Chun I practice they talk about 'Elbow Power'. The elbow does not power anything. But thinking about powering the upper arm from the 'elbow' helps you mentally shut off the bicep and tricep which can act as brakes (if engaged too much) when we punch, or do any other similar movement like tan, fook, etc. And furthermore thinking Elbow Power leads to you using primarily the shoulder musculature to drive the movement. Your comment jumped out at me because for many years I used to push my elbow, rather than rotate my elbow, having been taught that that was 'Elbow Power'. That approach never worked very well for me. The way I do things now works very well. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but there are no absolutes in WC. There are other ways. If you still think the tricep is the best way to power your arms, fold your arm in front of you against your own body with elbow down and hand up and have someone place a hand on your wrist to stop you from unfolding and extending your hand. Without using anything other than tricep muscle to open your arm, see if you can do it. Cheers!


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