# Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in



## Chrisinmd

Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in your hand?  I contacted a self defense instructor and told him I wanted to take boxing lessons for self defense.  He responded there are to many small delicate bones in the hand to be punching an assailant in a life or death situation and that it is not uncommon at all for even professional boxers to break there hands during fights even when they are wrapped and gloved.  So he said that it be reckless and irresponsible for him to teach me boxing for self defense and put me in a situation where I could lose my life based on what he teaches.

And then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches.  What do you think?


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## wab25

I have heard from lots of different sources, that say you will break your hands if you punch someone in the head, with just your hands. And yes, some people do. Even some professional boxers in full hand wraps break their hands. But, many more people don't. I know quite a few people who have gotten into fights, where they hit the other guy in the head... bars, highschool... I know 2 that did break their hands, and a bunch more that didn't. The first UFC was bare knuckle. The french guy broke his hand in his first fight, hitting the sumo fighter in the head. The rest of the fighters did not break their hands. The guy with the broken hand, fought twice more that night, with a broken hand and broken foot... he was far from incapacitated.

I would think that if you trained to box (or punch properly) then your chance of injury would go down. But, it may be that because you can punch harder, the chance of injury goes up. I am not sure. But, bare knuckle fights sanctioned and unsanctioned have been going on for years. They have produced broken hands and not broken hands.

Boxing teaches other targets besides the head. Just because you choose to box, does not mean that you have to punch him in the head. Even if you want to punch his head... a good sharp boxers jab should not break your hand. A few of those should dissuade most folks from wanting more. Boxing would bring you fitness, tune up your vision and teach you to move and react. If you like boxing, go for it.

As to the video... palm strikes are great. However, they are also not without risk. Ever notice how boxers gloves are starting to connect the thumb to the fingers? Thats to stop the thumb from breaking, if it catches. (and to stop the thumb from going into the eye) Using the palm strikes exposes your fingers and thumbs to be caught and broken.

The point I am making is to not let the risks keep you from training what you want. Are there risks? Yes. There are risks for every technique that exists. Instead of going by what someone said... do some research of your own. There are examples of bare knuckle fighting all over youtube and there are some sanctioned bare knuckle fighting organizations... as well as the early UFC stuff and probably quite a bit more to look at.

At the end of the day, the most effective training for you... is the type of training that you are most excited to actually get off the couch and do.


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## jobo

Chrisinmd said:


> Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in your hand?  I contacted a self defense instructor and told him I wanted to take boxing lessons for self defense.  He responded there are to many small delicate bones in the hand to be punching an assailant in a life or death situation and that it is not uncommon at all for even professional boxers to break there hands during fights even when they are wrapped and gloved.  So he said that it be reckless and irresponsible for him to teach me boxing for self defense and put me in a situation where I could lose my life based on what he teaches.
> 
> And then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches.  What do you think?


the harder you punch,  the more chance of you damaging yoyr hand, but the harder you punch the less it matters, as its more likely they are spark out, and you can take your time waiting for you hand to heal


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## Gerry Seymour

Chrisinmd said:


> Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in your hand?  I contacted a self defense instructor and told him I wanted to take boxing lessons for self defense.  He responded there are to many small delicate bones in the hand to be punching an assailant in a life or death situation and that it is not uncommon at all for even professional boxers to break there hands during fights even when they are wrapped and gloved.  So he said that it be reckless and irresponsible for him to teach me boxing for self defense and put me in a situation where I could lose my life based on what he teaches.
> 
> And then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches.  What do you think?


There is a risk, but it's generally overblown by the self-defense crowd. Personally, I'm only likely to take really juicy shots at the face with closed hands. To the body, I'll gladly use my fists. I know and have spoken with a lot of guys who've used their fists "on the street" (including bouncers and such, as well as just some scrappers). A few injured their hands, but I can't think of any who were taken out of the fight by a debilitating break.


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## Headhunter

A self defence instructor told you boxing isn’t good for hands? And let me guess he told you his way was good lol. End of the day could you break your hand? Sure but if you do then you use elbows or palms or any other weapon. Fact is it’s very unlikely you’ll “lose your life” over it with the adrenaline flowing. Rich franklin the former ufc middleweight champ fought 4 rounds with a broken hand and punched with it, he also broke his arm in another fight and knocked his opponent out with his broken arm. If it worries you that much get a bag or a pad and practice hitting it bare knuckle to strengthen your hands. I do most of my bag work with no gloves and I’m no street fighter far from it but I’ve never broken my hand in the ring or hitting the bag bare knuckle


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## drop bear

It is far more complicated than he suggests. And he probably doesn't understand the subject.

And you can also hurt your hands, break your fingers and damage your wrists hitting with an open palm.

Especially if the target is moving and not perfectly flat. E.g.. like a person attacking you.


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## JowGaWolf

Chrisinmd said:


> nd then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches. What do you think?


 Totally nuts. Here's why

In boxing or any sport that uses gloves, the person is often punching harder than what their hand can actually withstand.  That's the first reality.
The second reality is that you can target your punch fairly well without breaking your hand but  only if you aren't punching like you do when you wear gloves.

Martial arts have different types of fists used to strike different areas of the body.
1. Single knuckle strikes to attack soft areas
2. Knuckle areas to strike the body and facial areas except the skull
3. Using the flat areas of the fist to strike the skull.  Hammer fists 

If I punch you under your jaw where it hinges, your jaw will break or dislocate before I break my hand.  If I punch you in the heart, I have a better chance of causing your heart to beat irregularly than I have of me breaking my hands.

Conditioning of the hands is also important  That means heating bags without the glove will strengthen your fist and will teach you how you should punch without gloves.

Here are bare knuckle fighters, some with hand wraps, but if you take a look at the KO's you'll see that they aren't landing on the skull.  They are aiming eye level and lower.  Traditional Martial Art techniques always punch at a certain level and I have yet to see a TMA of quality instruction have punches aim at the skull.  In addition to that there are other techniques that allow people to relatively be able to punch skulls without breaking their hands.

My theory about broken knuckles and hands is probably due to people not making a proper fist.  A more common way of breaking your hand in a street fight is probably because of bad fist structure.  People not making a tight fist and people targeting the skull and not the softer areas of the face.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> It is far more complicated than he suggests. And he probably doesn't understand the subject.
> 
> And you can also hurt your hands, break your fingers and damage your wrists hitting with an open palm.
> 
> Especially if the target is moving and not perfectly flat. E.g.. like a person attacking you.


open palm strikes require a different mechanic to drive the necessary force to be any good.  Anyone who has thrown an open hand strike for the first time realizes just how weak it feels, but once you learn how to correctly drive that force, you can make good use of it.   I don't think it's something that anyone can safely do in a fight on the first try.  If that persons fingers aren't position a certain way, then that person is going to risk getting those fingers caught on clothing.  That person would also be at risk for fingers getting caught on incoming punches.  

This will actually put a person at more risk of damaging their fingers. Thumb is sticking out to the side and fingers are pointing forward.  They think punching the skull hurts, wait until they jam their fingers on a person's skull.  If anyone has jammed their finger on a basketball then you know just how painful that is.  Striking edges of a bad like this creates bad habits and bad structure for palm strikes.






I'm not a fan of his hammer fist using the inside of his hand like that.  That type of fist runs a high risk of damaging the thumb because there's nothing to brace it against the impact. Make a fist like that and then press on the joints and you can feel how easily the thumb gives.  There's a long fist technique that's much safer and will actually the user to strike the skull with minimum damage to the hand.

I watched some of his other videos and I would be skeptical.  I'm personally not feeling comfortable with it.  Sounds negative but  There are just some things that I pick up really quick.  Like him trying to cut an angle and not being able to mirror the same cut he did on his right when he moved left.  things like that. stand out to me.


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## punisher73

ANY technique has a risk to reward equation to it.  

Yes, wildly swinging to the head and you stand a good chance to break your hand.  Working in LE/Corrections for almost 25 years and I have seen many "streetfights" with wild haymakers to the head and it was very rare that anyone broke their hand.  Mostly, just very sore and swollen afterwards from hitting something hard.

Know the risk, train harder and apply as you see fit.  Many a fight ended just because someone took a hard punch the face and it opened up a cut.  Can't do that too well with an open hand.


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## JowGaWolf

Chrisinmd said:


> Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in your hand?  I contacted a self defense instructor and told him I wanted to take boxing lessons for self defense.  He responded there are to many small delicate bones in the hand to be punching an assailant in a life or death situation and that it is not uncommon at all for even professional boxers to break there hands during fights even when they are wrapped and gloved.  So he said that it be reckless and irresponsible for him to teach me boxing for self defense and put me in a situation where I could lose my life based on what he teaches.
> 
> And then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches.  What do you think?


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## JowGaWolf




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## JowGaWolf

not sure what happened with the double punch.  I don't think I missed a video,


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## JowGaWolf




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## Tony Dismukes

I agree with what everybody else has said, but I wanted to add that the "self-defense instructor" is very likely not qualified to teach boxing even if he was willing.


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## JowGaWolf

This talks about how he broke his hand when he punched someone's head.  It's in line with what I was saying about not making a good /correct fist.   He also shows a fore arm strike which is not the same as using the hammer fist like in the original video. 





One thing I  would like to say about his comment about no one squeezes their fist at the beginning. This isn't exactly true for circular punches, with circular punches you can squeeze that hand a lot sooner then you can with jabs, without affecting speed.  I actually train to specifically squeeze  my fist without tensing up my forearm.  It's sounds impossible but it's not.  The thumb over fingers structures doesn't allow you to do this, but the thumb pressing down into the finger.  What I call a "knocking fist" which looks similar to this. Allows you to get a tight fist without tensing up the forearm.  when use in a circular motion, the flat side of the fist (the side that is visible in the picture) can be used to strike the skull because it gives a larger striking surface.  But your fist structure has to be good, because a loose fist here will result in a broken hand.  So it just depends on the type of fist that you make.  In the picture below the thumb pushes downwards and helps make the tight fist.  So you pushing down instead of squeezing.  The squeezing motion of the hand used a lot of the forearm muscles which is why those hand squeezing exercises are good for building up the forearm.





I also talked about how one of the Jow Ga techniques naturally makes the strike land behind the ear.  Kugn Fu Wang also covered this about circular punches vs straight punches.


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## EdwardA

Knuckle push-ups and punching technique makes the difference, and you can change technique and striking type depending on the target.


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## jobo

EdwardA said:


> Knuckle push-ups and punching technique makes the difference, and you can change technique and striking type depending on the target.


knuckle push ups wont do any good at all,

what is it you think they achieve?


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## Chrisinmd

punisher73 said:


> ANY technique has a risk to reward equation to it.
> 
> Yes, wildly swinging to the head and you stand a good chance to break your hand.  Working in LE/Corrections for almost 25 years and I have seen many "streetfights" with wild haymakers to the head and it was very rare that anyone broke their hand.  Mostly, just very sore and swollen afterwards from hitting something hard.
> 
> Know the risk, train harder and apply as you see fit.  Many a fight ended just because someone took a hard punch the face and it opened up a cut.  Can't do that too well with an open hand.



I agree with your post.  Seems to me your better off taking the risk of breaking your hand by punching someone with your fist and ending the fight quickly.  If you use a palm strike not likely to end the fight right there and the longer the fight goes on so does your risk of injury.


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## Chrisinmd

Tony Dismukes said:


> I agree with what everybody else has said, but I wanted to add that the "self-defense instructor" is very likely not qualified to teach boxing even if he was willing.



You appear to be correct.  His Profile listing his experience and what he teaches dosent include Boxing.  He does teach kickboxing so he should know how to teach punches from that I would think?

"All lessons taught by Master Michael Tull, 5th Degree Black Belt in American Tae Kwon Do, sport martial arts and kickboxing. Nationally rated in tournament competition for 35 years."


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## EdwardA

jobo said:


> knuckle push ups wont do any good at all,
> 
> what is it you think they achieve?



They've helped me a lot.  For one thing strengthening your wrist (which is very important), flattening your hand, and after zillions of them you get used to hard contact on your fist.  Do them on wood or cement floor.....but I did a lot of things.

It's fairly lengthy process with 1 by lumber, ceramics like pots and saltillo tile.  I did a lot of breaking, but was NOT trying to punch thru the target, but only slightly.  I practices on painted cindar block walls and tilt wall to learn how to make *heavy contact* without damaging my hand.  I also had to stop increasing the pressure at the right time.  I was fortunate, I worked for for a company (at that specific time) that made ceramic transducers for missiles. Fairly large cylinders up to an inch thick.  They had plenty of rejects I could use for breaking, inch thick pots are expensive.  I hit flat mostly, but I'll roll my fist onto the first and second knuckles depending on what kind of damage I want to do.  I did this in a four year period in the '70s and it's never caused me problems.





Before I hear it, no my hand's not flat.  I'm trying to take a photo.


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## jobo

EdwardA said:


> They've helped me a lot.  For one thing strengthening your wrist (which is very important), flattening your hand, and after zillions of them you get used to hard contact on your fist.  Do them on wood or cement floor.....but I did a lot of things.
> 
> It's fairly lengthy process with 1 by lumber, ceramics like pots and saltillo tile.  I did a lot of breaking, but was NOT trying to punch thru the target, but only slightly.  I practices on painted cindar block walls and tilt wall to learn how to make *heavy contact* without damaging my hand.  I also had to stop increasing the pressure at the right time.  I was fortunate, I worked for for a company (at that specific time) that made ceramic transducers for missiles. Fairly large cylinders up to an inch thick.  They had plenty of rejects I could use for breaking, inch thick pots are expensive.  I hit flat mostly, but I'll roll my fist onto the first and second knuckles depending on what kind of damage I want to do.  I did this in a four year period in the '70s and it's never caused me problems.
> 
> View attachment 23098
> 
> Before I hear it, no my hand's not flat.  I'm trying to take a photo.


so they strenghen the wrist, ?? lots of exercises with a lot more additional   benifits do that, 

percusive exercise thickens bone, knuckles push ups or not particularly percussive,  youd be better of playibg ping pong


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## EdwardA

jobo said:


> so they strenghen the wrist, ?? lots of exercises with a lot more additional   benifits do that,
> 
> percusive exercise thickens bone, knuckles push ups or not particularly percussive,  youd be better of playibg ping pong



Please, tell us about the breaking techniques you've practiced.  How far you got at it....

Put up a photo of your knuckles.  We can all learn more.


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## jobo

EdwardA said:


> Please, tell us about the breaking techniques you've practiced.  How far you got at it....
> 
> Put up a photo of your knuckles.  We can all learn more.


i dont do that either, its particularly stupid past time , i require my punch to KNOCK PEOPLE over, so i practise hitting things that have a passing resemblance to people', that doesnt really include bits of wood or pre weaken concrete.

ive yet to see a profesional boxer indulge  in ego hiting of bearibg bits of wood

but back to your claim that knuckle push ups are all you need to strwnth your hands , perhaps you can expkain the biological process that makes it superior to say hitting a heavy bag,

that you did it in the 70s, doesnt count,  lits of peopke did stupid things  in the 70s, hell i had a pair of 6 in platform heels that i rode mororbikes in, i really wouldnt go in to print to recommend it


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## EdwardA

I trained a lot different things, and I wanted to be able to break what I hit....and I have, in real fights.  It didn't hurt my hand as I mentioned in the earlier post.  I can still break what I want without damaging my hands.  When your 140 lbs. and fighting typically bigger fellows sometimes you have to hurt them pretty badly, especially if they have friends near by.

...or somebody with a knife or gun, which I've had to face.  I wasn't trying to knock them out, I hit them to main them for life.  I trained to be able to, if necessary.


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## jobo

EdwardA said:


> I trained a lot different things, and I wanted to be able to break what I hit....and I have, in real fights.  It didn't hurt my hand as I mentioned in the earlier post.  I can still break what I want without damaging my hands.  When your 140 lbs. and fighting typically bigger fellows sometimes you have to hurt them pretty badly, especially if they have friends near by.


im still waiting for you to site the biology that knuckle push up are all you need to strengthen the bones in yoyr hand


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## Tony Dismukes

jobo said:


> percusive exercise thickens bone, knuckles push ups or not particularly percussive, youd be better of playibg ping pong


Load-bearing exercise also strengthens bone. 
I don't know for sure how it compares to percussive exercises, but the good news is that you don't have to choose. You can do both.


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## EdwardA

jobo said:


> im still waiting for you to site the biology that knuckle push up are all you need to strengthen the bones in yoyr hand



I didn't say anywhere in my post they strengthened bone.  It strengthens your overall hand and helped me, keep my wrist straight.  I did mention those other things I did.

  I did not end up with arthritis 40+ years later and can still hit solid objects very hard.  As I said earlier, I didn't train to push very far thru things but instead, apply enough contact pressure to break my target.

I'm also not talking about a few knuckle push-ups, at the time I was doing 160 at a time, minimum 3 times per day.  ....and I did them slower than anybody else, on cement, sidewalks mostly.


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## Buka

A loss for words.


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## EdwardA

In my very first post I stated, "knuckle push-ups and punching technique.". In my second post I included some of the other training.


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## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> Load-bearing exercise also strengthens bone.
> I don't know for sure how it compares to percussive exercises, but the good news is that you don't have to choose. You can do both.


Ping Pong is so fun.  I played a lot of Ping Pong in Saudi Arabia.  Not much else to do.  I pretty much just read books, swam, and played ping pong when I was off duty.   Got pretty good, though it's been almost exactly 30 years since I've played now.


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## EdwardA

Steve said:


> Ping Pong is so fun.  I played a lot of Ping Pong in Saudi Arabia.  Not much else to do.  I pretty much just read books, swam, and played ping pong when I was off duty.   Got pretty good, though it's been almost exactly 30 years since I've played now.



Have seen this, it was faked after his death, but very well done.


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## Headhunter

EdwardA said:


> Have seen this, it was faked after his death, but very well done.


The sad thing is people genuinely think this is real


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## Steve

Headhunter said:


> The sad thing is people genuinely think this is real


Whoever made it did a nice job.


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## Headhunter

Steve said:


> Whoever made it did a nice job.


Yes they did but still the fact people genuinely think Bruce Lee could actually play ping pong with nunchucks...it shows how out of touch some Bruce Lee fans are..some like to claim he could literally beat 20 heavyweights at the same time lol


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## EdwardA

Headhunter said:


> Yes they did but still the fact people genuinely think Bruce Lee could actually play ping pong with nunchucks...it shows how out of touch some Bruce Lee fans are..some like to claim he could literally beat 20 heavyweights at the same time lol



Lee did some amazing things off the big screen, but movies and TV are just that... segments of perplanned illusion....like the one above.


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## Headhunter

EdwardA said:


> Lee did some amazing things off the big screen, but movies and TV are just that... segments of perplanned illusion....like the one above.


Never said he didn’t but the people saying nonsense about how he’d knock out heavyweight boxers And dominate mma heavyweight champions really does show peoples ignorance. It’s amusing as I’ve had a lot of abuse thrown at me for saying this on other pages. It’s funny lol


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## EdwardA

Headhunter said:


> Never said he didn’t but the people saying nonsense about how he’d knock out heavyweight boxers And dominate mma heavyweight champions really does show peoples ignorance. It’s amusing as I’ve had a lot of abuse thrown at me for saying this on other pages. It’s funny lol



Saw some interesting things in his early demonstrations, but he hurt his back in the middle of his movie career.  Didn't live long enough to get over the back injury, if he could've. A back injury really limits what you can do.  Except maybe in the imagination of movie goers.

I watched everything he did in the late 60s and early 70s and did what I could do to mimic it, but had an instuctor that convinced me to do things his way....but I never gave up my "strong-side forward" jab.  I just added a lot of stuff to it.


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## Gerry Seymour

EdwardA said:


> Have seen this, it was faked after his death, but very well done.


I’ve always liked that one. Someone did a good job with it.


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## jobo

Steve said:


> Ping Pong is so fun.  I played a lot of Ping Pong in Saudi Arabia.  Not much else to do.  I pretty much just read books, swam, and played ping pong when I was off duty.   Got pretty good, though it's been almost exactly 30 years since I've played now.


im quite good at ping pong,  i just get it back over the net, something im good at and my oponent kkeeps hitting it harder and hard till they miss,  im not sure ive ever played a winnibg shot

usless fact if the day, it was originally called whiff waff


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## EdwardA

jobo said:


> im quite good at ping pong,  i just get it back over the net, something im good at and my oponent kkeeps hitting it harder and hard till they miss,  im not sure ive ever played a winnibg shot



That does works well, unless you're playing somebody that's really, really good.  ... don't run across pro-rated players often so getting it over the net well consitently, works.  Most heavy hitters make mistakes.  I haven't played in years tho...


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## jobo

EdwardA said:


> That does works well, unless you're playing somebody that's really, really good.  ... don't run across pro-rated players often so getting it over the net well works.  I haven't played in years tho...


were not knee  deep in professional ping pongers round here


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## EdwardA

jobo said:


> were not knee  deep in professional ping pongers round here



Yeah, I played 2-3 guys with that kind of skill.  I could get maybe, 6-8 pionts on'em. that was it.  The more I tried the worse it got.  They adapted and got even better.  Ping Pong's is great fun, for anybody.


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## Steve

jobo said:


> were not knee  deep in professional ping pongers round here


I could hit the ball really hard.  I had a decent forehand, and a really good backhand, both with enough top spin to get it by a lot of folks.  I was also pretty good at sneaking some back spin in, which would often cause my opponent to hit the ball straight into the net.  

My weakness was the serve.  

You guys, now I'm thinking I need to get a ping pong table.


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## Buka

I really like the game, but I really stink at it. I wish there wasn't a net in the middle, I'd have so much more fun.


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## CB Jones

To get great at ping pong, you have to train with a spoon like Randy Daytona.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I really like the game, but I really stink at it. I wish there wasn't a net in the middle, I'd have so much more fun.


I think you've just solved my tennis issues.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I think you've just solved my tennis issues.


Without the net, you're really just rolling the ball back and forth.  I mean, how fun is that?


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Without the net, you're really just rolling the ball back and forth.  I mean, how fun is that?


Rolling? Hell no! I'm still hitting it as hard as I can. You're just not protected by the net any more.


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## Buka

gpseymour said:


> I think you've just solved my tennis issues.



I used to be both really fast and really quick. Learning to play tennis, or more appropriately _trying_ to learn to play tennis, I could get to any ball anywhere on the court.....and either hit it right into the net or over the ten foot high fence onto the highway.

I played pretty much all sports, or at least tried to. Sports with nets.....man, they messed me up so bad I didn't even like woman with fishnet stockings.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I used to be both really fast and really quick. Learning to play tennis, or more appropriately _trying_ to learn to play tennis, I could get to any ball anywhere on the court.....and either hit it right into the net or over the ten foot high fence onto the highway.
> 
> I played pretty much all sports, or at least tried to. Sports with nets.....man, they messed me up so bad I didn't even like woman with fishnet stockings.


Like with many sports, I was good at parts of it and....less good at other parts. I'd get some really nice shots down the line, and the next volley the exact same swing (I swear it felt the same) would send the ball beyond all retrieval. No control, whatsoever. Now that I think about it, my tennis game strongly resembled my golf game.


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## EdwardA

gpseymour said:


> Like with many sports, I was good at parts of it and....less good at other parts. I'd get some really nice shots down the line, and the next volley the exact same swing (I swear it felt the same) would send the ball beyond all retrieval. No control, whatsoever. Now that I think about it, my tennis game strongly resembled my golf game.



I tried golf, and could putt, but I disided without time at the driving range i shouldn't continue.  The only other athletics I did before MA, was track.  I was on the track team in 3 schools.

Elementary, military school, junior high...8-9th grade was more into MA.....and yearbook photography.


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## Steve

EdwardA said:


> I tried golf, and could putt, but I disided without time at the driving range i shouldn't continue.  The only other athletics I did before MA, was track.  I was on the track team in 3 schools.
> 
> Elementary, military school, junior high...8-9th grade was more into MA.....and yearbook photography.


In HS I was on the wrestling team one year, did Wing Chun for two years.  Mostly though, I got into trouble.  

You know, interestingly, I had forgotten, but I actually started playing ping pong at night school.


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## CB Jones

Football, baseball, and boxing in high school....I was a straight up meathead, lol.


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## _Simon_

Ah man I love ping pong, or table tennis as we call it here (is it offensive to ping-pongists to call it ping-pong? I wonder!).

Really miss playing it and got quite good at it, and people who think that ping-pong is just an easy version of tennis maaaaaan are they wrong! It's almost a different game entirely in ways but obvious similarities... Such technique and subtlety involved... and I'd be dripping with sweat after a good match! Or maybe I just tried too hard XD (I do remember thoroughly diving alot even when it was totally NOT necessary)


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## JowGaWolf

EdwardA said:


> Knuckle push-ups and punching technique makes the difference, and you can change technique and striking type depending on the target.


yep. knuckle pushups help strengthen the wrist, and conditions the knuckles.  I like to do mine in the grass so I can punch into the soil. The soil allows my knuckles to stab into the soil.  I try to sneak in knuckle conditioning whenever possible.


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## JowGaWolf

Finding it strange that so many have played ping pong .  I used to play at the Rec centers for bragging rights but that was about the extent of it.  Martials and Ping Pong.  who would have guessed.  Or maybe it's a generational thing?


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## Buka

gpseymour said:


> Like with many sports, I was good at parts of it and....less good at other parts. I'd get some really nice shots down the line, and the next volley the exact same swing (I swear it felt the same) would send the ball beyond all retrieval. No control, whatsoever. Now that I think about it, my tennis game strongly resembled my golf game.



Golf, HA! I routinely beat my buddies so bad I feel sorry for them.  Poor guys shoot in the eighties and I shoot in the high one thirties. Fifty shots more than they ever get to do. They bought me this shirt just last year to honor my skill.


----------



## Headhunter

_Simon_ said:


> Ah man I love ping pong, or table tennis as we call it here (is it offensive to ping-pongists to call it ping-pong? I wonder!).)


Course it is everything’s offensive to everyone these days lol


----------



## Buka

CB Jones said:


> Football, baseball, and boxing in high school....I was a straight up meathead, lol.



In high school I belonged to every club they had, even the chess club, and I didn't play chess. I missed so many classes I'm surprised they let me get away with it. To me, high school was more fun than a barrel full of monkeys.

Four years after high school I went back and worked there for several years. it was still fun.

But I'll tell you what's strange, there weren't any wrestling, or boxing teams in any Boston High School back then.


----------



## Steve

Buka said:


> In high school I belonged to every club they had, even the chess club, and I didn't play chess. I missed so many classes I'm surprised they let me get away with it. To me, high school was more fun than a barrel full of monkeys.
> 
> Four years after high school I went back and worked there for several years. it was still fun.
> 
> But I'll tell you what's strange, there weren't any wrestling, or boxing teams in any Boston High School back then.


I was in the chess club, but mostly I just skipped class, smoked weed, and argued with friends about deep things.  I graduated with my class, but IIRC, my gpa was like 2.1 and that was after two years of night school and summer school.  But I was also working 30 hours per week at McDs and making that money!   

After I graduated, I worked two full time jobs.  One was as a dishwasher at a small restaurant on Bainbridge island with a guy who was the drummer for an unknown garage band called Nirvana.  My brush with almost fame!


----------



## Buka

Steve said:


> I was in the chess club, but mostly I just skipped class, smoked weed, and argued with friends about deep things.  I graduated with my class, but IIRC, my gpa was like 2.1 and that was after two years of night school and summer school.  But I was also working 30 hours per week at McDs and making that money!
> 
> After I graduated, I worked two full time jobs.  One was as a dishwasher at a small restaurant on Bainbridge island with a guy who was the drummer for an unknown garage band called Nirvana.  My brush with almost fame!



Lol!

I didn't smoke weed until my first year of college, but other than that....yeah, God, I'm laughing right now.

I worked at Mickey D's for one night, me and the boss didn't really get along. Then I worked all kinds of strange jobs through college, from working as Santa Claus in a department store, with kids sitting on my knee to get their picture taken, to selling suits in a department store, to working in a sub shop for a year and a half where I never actually made even one sub - not one, honest, just took sports bets over the phone.

Graduating from high school I was ranked 199 out of 201 in my class, never did homework and actually got into college. Go figure.

As you can imagine, that went really well.


----------



## Ivan

Chrisinmd said:


> Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in your hand?  I contacted a self defense instructor and told him I wanted to take boxing lessons for self defense.  He responded there are to many small delicate bones in the hand to be punching an assailant in a life or death situation and that it is not uncommon at all for even professional boxers to break there hands during fights even when they are wrapped and gloved.  So he said that it be reckless and irresponsible for him to teach me boxing for self defense and put me in a situation where I could lose my life based on what he teaches.
> 
> And then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches.  What do you think?


Better break a hand than lose a life. Even if you punch and break your hand on contact, if you're in a genuine street fight situation, you won't feel a thing from the adrenaline. I know because it's happened to me. I got into a scuffle, and received the classic boxer's fracture whilst aiming to hook punch my opponent's temple. Thing is, I didn't even feel the pain until 30-60 minutes later when the fight had ended. It all depends on whether the instructor can teach you proper punching technique, whether you are dedicated to condition your bones, and if you will be able to hit your target as intended.

In short, boxing is still effective. Even if you decide to use different striking techniques, or a whole other martial style altogether, there aren't many other styles, dare I say any, that can teach you footwork, blocking, fighting instinct and remove your flinching as effectively as boxing. Why? Because of all the striking styles out there, boxing rings offer the smallest amount of space available. When sparring, you are almost constantly in your opponent's face and vice versa due to the small arena in comparison to say MMA, where the cage is larger to allow for kicks and other techniques.


----------



## EdwardA

Ivan said:


> Better break a hand than lose a life. Even if you punch and break your hand on contact, if you're in a genuine street fight situation, you won't feel a thing from the adrenaline. I know because it's happened to me. I got into a scuffle, and received the classic boxer's fracture whilst aiming to hook punch my opponent's temple. Thing is, I didn't even feel the pain until 30-60 minutes later when the fight had ended. It all depends on whether the instructor can teach you proper punching technique, whether you are dedicated to condition your bones, and if you will be able to hit your target as intended.
> 
> In short, boxing is still effective. Even if you decide to use different striking techniques, or a whole other martial style altogether, there aren't many other styles, dare I say any, that can teach you footwork, blocking, fighting instinct and remove your flinching as effectively as boxing. Why? Because of all the striking styles out there, boxing rings offer the smallest amount of space available. When sparring, you are almost constantly in your opponent's face and vice versa due to the small arena in comparison to say MMA, where the cage is larger to allow for kicks and other techniques.



I think any system can be effective on the street, as long as you realize you are going to have to improvise.  The big difference being, there are no rules...and you must be prepared to do something worse than your opponent might do.  You may not have to, but you must be ready to do things that you might otherwise find immoral.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> Finding it strange that so many have played ping pong .  I used to play at the Rec centers for bragging rights but that was about the extent of it.  Martials and Ping Pong.  who would have guessed.  Or maybe it's a generational thing?


Different generation, I also played ping pong. 

Funny story-me and my best friend in childhood were absolutely amazing at ping pong. 99% of people we played, regardless of age/experience, we'd beat. He was better than me, and one other guy came to one of the rec centers we frequented and beat him once, but that was about it. Except his dad-he was the one who taught us both to play, and we could never beat him. When I was a teenager, I finally was playing a game with him where it looked like I might win..and he switched hands. Turned out he'd been left handed the whole time and I didn't know..


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Different generation, I also played ping pong.
> 
> Funny story-me and my best friend in childhood were absolutely amazing at ping pong. 99% of people we played, regardless of age/experience, we'd beat. He was better than me, and one other guy came to one of the rec centers we frequented and beat him once, but that was about it. Except his dad-he was the one who taught us both to play, and we could never beat him. When I was a teenager, I finally was playing a game with him where it looked like I might win..and he switched hands. Turned out he'd been left handed the whole time and I didn't know..


I wish I could surprise someone like that.


----------



## Steve

EdwardA said:


> I think any system can be effective on the street, as long as you realize you are going to have to improvise.  The big difference being, there are no rules...and you must be prepared to do something worse than your opponent might do.  You may not have to, but you must be ready to do things that you might otherwise find immoral.


What is it about any system that would make it effective, in your opinion?  How do you train to people to do things they might otherwise consider immoral?  Someone mentioned social conditioning in another thread.  This sounds alarmingly like actual social conditioning.

Another question.  If any system could theoretically be effective on the street, as long as you realize you're going to have to improvise, wouldn't that mean that no training is effective, as long as the person is prepared to emphasize?  If your assertion is true, then training is unnecessary, as we should instead focus on somehow developing people's improvisation skills.


----------



## Steve

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Different generation, I also played ping pong.
> 
> Funny story-me and my best friend in childhood were absolutely amazing at ping pong. 99% of people we played, regardless of age/experience, we'd beat. He was better than me, and one other guy came to one of the rec centers we frequented and beat him once, but that was about it. Except his dad-he was the one who taught us both to play, and we could never beat him. When I was a teenager, I finally was playing a game with him where it looked like I might win..and he switched hands. Turned out he'd been left handed the whole time and I didn't know..


----------



## marques

Nothing is perfect for self defence. Even, what is self defense? Or what is the kind of attacks you have in mind?

Anything will need to be adapted from what it is to what you want or need. I am sure boxing will be helpful, expecially if you are aware of the hands and wrists weakness.
You can still learn how to dodge punches, or precision so you still hit the chin without breaking bones, or try to mix with open hands...

I guess boxing is one of the easiest styles learn and to apply on untrained opponents.

Well, have fun. Hopefully, you will not need self defence that much. At least, have fun while training something.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Steve said:


> View attachment 23131


The real life version of that. And sadly I couldnt respond  the same.


----------



## EdwardA

I think some of the, for lack of a better term...confusion about this vane, is it depends on what you're referring to, basic self defense for an unusual situation or spending significant time fighting on the street.  I ended up homeless three times for substantial periods (left SoCal hitch-hiking).  First time, gang-bangers in downtown San Antoinio, then found a job in a manufacturing facility on the edge of the third ward in Houston.  Whole different kind of fighters there.  Then after hitch-hiking to Galveston and Freeport and working on the oil supply boats a year, I went back to San Antonio and fought more gang-bangers.  That wasn't the end of it either.

My point being, my necessity changed my motivation from self-defense to life and death struggles. Things change at that point, so my definition may be different than others. Oddly, that's what my instructor trained me for from the beginning. Fortunately he trained me for 8 years before I left SoCal, but I had no idea I'd ever use it to such a serious level.  I had to do some things I find questionable from a moral perspective. 

I think most systems work reasonably well if you're good at them, but you still have to learn and adapt.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Golf, HA! I routinely beat my buddies so bad I feel sorry for them.  Poor guys shoot in the eighties and I shoot in the high one thirties. Fifty shots more than they ever get to do. They bought me this shirt just last year to honor my skill.
> 
> View attachment 23119


At my best I was spectacularly unpredictable. I could drive the ball 300+ yards, but was never quite sure which direction. Behind me was usually a safe place to stand. But when it went where I wanted, it was a thing of beauty.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Different generation, I also played ping pong.
> 
> Funny story-me and my best friend in childhood were absolutely amazing at ping pong. 99% of people we played, regardless of age/experience, we'd beat. He was better than me, and one other guy came to one of the rec centers we frequented and beat him once, but that was about it. Except his dad-he was the one who taught us both to play, and we could never beat him. When I was a teenager, I finally was playing a game with him where it looked like I might win..and he switched hands. Turned out he'd been left handed the whole time and I didn't know..


Was his name, by any chance, Inigo?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> View attachment 23131


I see I was late to the game.


----------



## Buka

gpseymour said:


> At my best I was spectacularly unpredictable. I could drive the ball 300+ yards, but was never quite sure which direction. Behind me was usually a safe place to stand. But when it went where I wanted, it was a thing of beauty.



I love playing golf, but I'm spectacularly awful at it, but it's just fun.

However, I actually won a trophy in a golf tournament once. For Best dressed. Knickers, pom pom hat, the whole nine yards. I think I shot a one seventy that day. Not a bad days work.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I love playing golf, but I'm spectacularly awful at it, but it's just fun.
> 
> However, I actually won a trophy in a golf tournament once. For Best dressed. Knickers, pom pom hat, the whole nine yards. I think I shot a one seventy that day. Not a bad days work.


I actually won a chipping contest once. Would have won the long-drive if they'd just ended it with the qualification - my qualifying drive was longer than anyone else's drive that day. My actual competition drives (we got 2) were each about 60 yards wide...on opposite sides. The day was an excellent summary of my golf game at the time. Best I ever shot was 94. Most days I'd shoot something closer to 110.


----------



## Buka

gpseymour said:


> I actually won a chipping contest once. Would have won the long-drive if they'd just ended it with the qualification - my qualifying drive was longer than anyone else's drive that day. My actual competition drives (we got 2) were each about 60 yards wide...on opposite sides. The day was an excellent summary of my golf game at the time. Best I ever shot was 94. Most days I'd shoot something closer to 110.



My greatest accomplishment in golf was shooting a 144 without losing a ball. I still have that sucker. 

On the 17th I cranked into the woods, everyone helped me find it. It was a red Lady Titlest with a chip in it. I may even take it out next time I golf and set it free.


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> I actually won a chipping contest once. Would have won the long-drive if they'd just ended it with the qualification - my qualifying drive was longer than anyone else's drive that day. My actual competition drives (we got 2) were each about 60 yards wide...on opposite sides. The day was an excellent summary of my golf game at the time. Best I ever shot was 94. Most days I'd shoot something closer to 110.


My buddy and I used to golf when we were in our early teens.  I would do ok for a while and then my game would just deteriorate.  I was screaming obscenities, throwing my clubs, yup I was that guy, at about age 13.

Finally my buddy told me he got a call from the clubhouse, telling him we’ve just GOT to chill out.  I guess I got us noticed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> My greatest accomplishment in golf was shooting a 144 without losing a ball. I still have that sucker.
> 
> On the 17th I cranked into the woods, everyone helped me find it. It was a red Lady Titlest with a chip in it. I may even take it out next time I golf and set it free.


As long as you and your playing partners have fun, who cares how many strokes it takes.

Well, everyone who makes fewer strokes, clearly. But besides them, who cares?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> My buddy and I used to golf when we were in our early teens.  I would do ok for a while and then my game would just deteriorate.  I was screaming obscenities, throwing my clubs, yup I was that guy, at about age 13.
> 
> Finally my buddy told me he got a call from the clubhouse, telling him we’ve just GOT to chill out.  I guess I got us noticed.


I was never that guy, though I had some playing partners who were. My dad was, though in a more...restrained fashion. I broke a few clubs in my day, but that was always from me playing some ridiculous shot from some ridiculous place against a tree. I seemed to spend a lot of time doing that.


----------



## Buka

gpseymour said:


> As long as you and your playing partners have fun, who cares how many strokes it takes.
> 
> Well, everyone who makes fewer strokes, clearly. But besides them, who cares?


 
Probably the foursome behind me. But I wouldn't make them wait. We either have them play through, or I pick up my ball, jump in the cart and give myself a ten on the hole.


----------



## Balas Sermas

jobo said:


> knuckle push ups wont do any good at all,
> 
> what is it you think they achieve?


I think his theory is that; the longer he compressed the bones on his knuckles the more molecular/bone density they would acquire from compressing them lifting his body weight hence the more durable they will become.


----------



## Gaucho

When Mike "My Brain Is On Fire" Tyson was champ, he got into an argument (of course) in a Manhattan club with one of his competitors.  Showing his usual self control, he punched the guy in the head - _*and broke his hand*_.  The toughest guy in the world, built like a refrigerator, broke his hand.

Military unarmed combat training tends to discourage punching because a broken trigger finger (and other fingers)
could be fatal later on.


----------



## jobo

Gaucho said:


> When Mike "My Brain Is On Fire" Tyson was champ, he got into an argument (of course) in a Manhattan club with one of his competitors.  Showing his usual self control, he punched the guy in the head - _*and broke his hand*_.  The toughest guy in the world, built like a refrigerator, broke his hand.
> 
> Military unarmed combat training tends to discourage punching because a broken trigger finger (and other fingers)
> could be fatal later on.


well he didnt break his hand did he, he got a fracture to some small bones, of course very few people hit as hard as mike, the weaker your punch the less chance of damage

i find the whole discussion bizarre, if you hit the guy hard enough to fracture some digits then he should be spark out on the floor or at least wobbling a lot, you wont even feel it to the next day, so it doesnt take you out of the fight

are you really putting forward the idea that a boxers fracture would stop you pulling a trigger ? i find that most unlikely to be honest, it may hurt a bit,


----------



## cane56

Well I'd have to disagree. Pat Halsey was number eight in the world in the welterweight division boxing. Due to his size there was many times that someone in a bar would pick a fight with him. They were always bigger and thought this would be easy pickings. I never saw Pat lose a bar fight! It was normal the fight was over in 30 seconds or less. I don't remember him ever breaking his hand or even complaining about his hand. Oh and by the way he was the state wrestling champion. The pinpoint accuracy of a boxer seldom is he missing the chin the nose the eyes, he is not hitting your forehead. Training with him was completely different than any martial arts I've ever taken. The guy couldn't bench 200 lb if you put a gun to his head. But when he hits you even at 147 lb it was like a bomb going off. I've seen him walk out the door and before the door even shut him walking back in, some guy is laying in the dirt. Because of his two brothers Mike who is ranked and Ned who was ranked he could take a punch. My only goal when we spared is to kick his legs grab him and arm lock him.


----------



## Petey Nunchakus

Chrisinmd said:


> Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in your hand?  I contacted a self defense instructor and told him I wanted to take boxing lessons for self defense.  He responded there are to many small delicate bones in the hand to be punching an assailant in a life or death situation and that it is not uncommon at all for even professional boxers to break there hands during fights even when they are wrapped and gloved.  So he said that it be reckless and irresponsible for him to teach me boxing for self defense and put me in a situation where I could lose my life based on what he teaches.
> 
> And then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches.  What do you think?


I have broken my right hand numerous times, but if I had to defend myself for some crazy reason, I'd probably go blank if I was told not to throw fists😂 Whenever I'm at my Muay Thai classes, I actually concentrate now on where my index and middle knuckles are landing on the bag or mitts. The hand is a fragile thing, but I think lots of breaks from punching, pertain to what part of the hand you are landing your strikes with.


----------



## Steve

I've always thought this whole debate is a little strange.  If I were fighting, I presume it would be because I feel like my life is being threatened.  I'm not sure about you guys, but in my book, a broken hand is a pretty good outcome.


----------



## Petey Nunchakus

Steve said:


> I've always thought this whole debate is a little strange.  If I were fighting, I presume it would be because I feel like my life is being threatened.  I'm not sure about you guys, but in my book, a broken hand is a pretty good outcome.


I'd be surprised seeing someone throwing palm strikes in a fight, unless it was Bas Rutten😂


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I've always thought this whole debate is a little strange.  If I were fighting, I presume it would be because I feel like my life is being threatened.  I'm not sure about you guys, but in my book, a broken hand is a pretty good outcome.


As long as it doesn't happen in a way that impedes your ability to control the outcome, I agree. If I break a hand knocking him down, that's probably okay. If I break my hand and he's still standing (and the break is bad enough to reduce hand usage immediately), I've got troubles.


----------



## john_newman

That's Why Karate is probably known for self-defense..!! Take your instructor advice seriously..!! You might have some questions in your mind even after instructions from your instructor. keep reading Blogs in your free time, so you mighty have some clarity about that..


----------



## Buka

I've busted just about everything at one time or another, but never broke a hand. None of my students have either. One of the very first things we train is punching properly, gloved or bare handed. It's drilled into them until they're sick of hearing it. Then drilled into them some more.

So far so good, I guess.


----------



## dvcochran

Buka said:


> I've busted just about everything at one time or another, but never broke a hand. None of my students have either. One of the very first things we train is punching properly, gloved or bare handed. It's drilled into them until they're sick of hearing it. Then drilled into them some more.
> 
> So far so good, I guess.


The third knuckle on my right hand was 'knocked off' broken from a low-ish but scoring area punch that was timely blocked by a knee. The same hand was also broken in a tournament by a fluke falling punch that did score. 
So both punch were 'correct' but still did not work out very well for me. 
I have spent 100(0)'s of hours on the Makiwara board and have broken 5 board and 10 blocks (5 on each hand at the same time) several times. 
In competition or in a street fight shxt happens sometimes and how we react to it make all the difference.

The way you trained it the right and only way to do it. Where the chips fall is just up to chance sometimes. I think the more someone pushes the limits the more likely that things will happen.


----------



## Buka

dvcochran said:


> The third knuckle on my right hand was 'knocked off' broken from a low-ish but scoring area punch that was timely blocked by a knee. The same hand was also broken in a tournament by a fluke falling punch that did score.
> So both punch were 'correct' but still did not work out very well for me.
> I have spent 100(0)'s of hours on the Makiwara board and have broken 5 board and 10 blocks (5 on each hand at the same time) several times.
> In competition or in a street fight shxt happens sometimes and how we react to it make all the difference.
> 
> The way you trained it the right and only way to do it. Where the chips fall is just up to chance sometimes. I think the more someone pushes the limits the more likely that things will happen.


I've been lucky hand wise. But I attribute it to pushups. Vertical fist, horizontal fist, only the first two knuckles. We would do fifty pushups in thirty seconds on every break in class. There was never a class where we did less than ten sets, usually more. When they get used to it from day one, it's like bowing in - it's just something you do every day.

I have not been so lucky with ribs. I seem to get my ribs broken every ten years like clockwork. And I'm due. (curses!)


----------



## dvcochran

Buka said:


> I've been lucky hand wise. But I attribute it to pushups. Vertical fist, horizontal fist, only the first two knuckles. We would do fifty pushups in thirty seconds on every break in class. There was never a class where we did less than ten sets, usually more. When they get used to it from day one, it's like bowing in - it's just something you do every day.
> 
> I have not been so lucky with ribs. I seem to get my ribs broken every ten years like clockwork. And I'm due. (curses!)


Tell me about it. Here is my boring dumb rib story. 
When I was still in college I worked maintenance at an automated foundry. Stunk like hell but the automation was cool and really cutting edge for the time. It was an Italian owned company and Everything was "quanto velocemente in fretta".
A 10 horsepower motor failed on a ball field length drying system that was a high reach 2 scaffolds up. These are heavy motors, just south of 200 pounds. So everyone is freaking out and in a rush. I am one of the newer guys so I go up, unbolt the motor and slide it out of the facing. We used 2" x 12" boards doubled up for walk boards. When the motor slid out and I had the weight the boards went "Crack"! Like a dummy, instead of dropping the motor (which would have been dangerous to people below and around) I bear hugged the motor and held on for the ride down. 
If you know what bricklayers scaffolds look like they have a metal cross brace. On the way down I smacked the cross brace on my left ribs and took the full weight of the motor plus the force of the fall. Knew right away I had injured something. Turns out it was two cracked ribs and a nasty soft tissue injury. Big bruise.

Here is where I go really stupid. I was just working my way into the circuit and had a big tournaments 3-weeks down the road. So I taped up for 3-weeks, continued to work at a limited capacity, and lightly trained. Sounds good right? I decided to compete 3 weeks later. I got through two matches okay but was getting increasingly sore. One of my nemeses back then was Joel Henke. Really good and vicious. I was leading the match but he saw that I was gimpy and exploited it when I made a bad step.  was hammered by a spinning side kick that hit but glanced off my backside. I went down and could not breathe, so I took my 1-minute medical time out.  My trainer and my instructor were in my ear; so I got taped up and finished the match winning by one point by playing keep away for about 45 seconds. 
After the match I started wheezing and spit up some blood. I bowed out of the tournament, was carried to the ER and my two ribs that were originally cracked were now one fully broken rib that poked into the Pleura and the other rib cracked much worse and very displaced. 

I have a lot of worse injuries but that is still the worst pain I remember.


----------



## Buka

dvcochran said:


> Tell me about it. Here is my boring dumb rib story.
> When I was still in college I worked maintenance at an automated foundry. Stunk like hell but the automation was cool and really cutting edge for the time. It was an Italian owned company and Everything was "quanto velocemente in fretta".
> A 10 horsepower motor failed on a ball field length drying system that was a high reach 2 scaffolds up. These are heavy motors, just south of 200 pounds. So everyone is freaking out and in a rush. I am one of the newer guys so I go up, unbolt the motor and slide it out of the facing. We used 2" x 12" boards doubled up for walk boards. When the motor slid out and I had the weight the boards went "Crack"! Like a dummy, instead of dropping the motor (which would have been dangerous to people below and around) I bear hugged the motor and held on for the ride down.
> If you know what bricklayers scaffolds look like they have a metal cross brace. On the way down I smacked the cross brace on my left ribs and took the full weight of the motor plus the force of the fall. Knew right away I had injured something. Turns out it was two cracked ribs and a nasty soft tissue injury. Big bruise.
> 
> Here is where I go really stupid. I was just working my way into the circuit and had a big tournaments 3-weeks down the road. So I taped up for 3-weeks, continued to work at a limited capacity, and lightly trained. Sounds good right? I decided to compete 3 weeks later. I got through two matches okay but was getting increasingly sore. One of my nemeses back then was Joel Henke. Really good and vicious. I was leading the match but he saw that I was gimpy and exploited it when I made a bad step.  was hammered by a spinning side kick that hit but glanced off my backside. I went down and could not breathe, so I took my 1-minute medical time out.  My trainer and my instructor were in my ear; so I got taped up and finished the match winning by one point by playing keep away for about 45 seconds.
> After the match I started wheezing and spit up some blood. I bowed out of the tournament, was carried to the ER and my two ribs that were originally cracked were now one fully broken rib that poked into the Pleura and the other rib cracked much worse and very displaced.
> 
> I have a lot of worse injuries but that is still the worst pain I remember.


Oh, that's nasty. Gotta' admit, though, I laughed. I know the "here is where I go really stupid" all too well.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Chrisinmd said:


> Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in your hand?  I contacted a self defense instructor and told him I wanted to take boxing lessons for self defense.  He responded there are to many small delicate bones in the hand to be punching an assailant in a life or death situation and that it is not uncommon at all for even professional boxers to break there hands during fights even when they are wrapped and gloved.  So he said that it be reckless and irresponsible for him to teach me boxing for self defense and put me in a situation where I could lose my life based on what he teaches.
> 
> And then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches.  What do you think?


No sandwich or burrito has ever defeated him. His open mouth technique cannot be defended.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Teasing, but that video is sad.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

EdwardA said:


> They've helped me a lot.  For one thing strengthening your wrist (which is very important), flattening your hand, and after zillions of them you get used to hard contact on your fist.  Do them on wood or cement floor.....but I did a lot of things.
> 
> It's fairly lengthy process with 1 by lumber, ceramics like pots and saltillo tile.  I did a lot of breaking, but was NOT trying to punch thru the target, but only slightly.  I practices on painted cindar block walls and tilt wall to learn how to make *heavy contact* without damaging my hand.  I also had to stop increasing the pressure at the right time.  I was fortunate, I worked for for a company (at that specific time) that made ceramic transducers for missiles. Fairly large cylinders up to an inch thick.  They had plenty of rejects I could use for breaking, inch thick pots are expensive.  I hit flat mostly, but I'll roll my fist onto the first and second knuckles depending on what kind of damage I want to do.  I did this in a four year period in the '70s and it's never caused me problems.
> 
> View attachment 23098
> 
> Before I hear it, no my hand's not flat.  I'm trying to take a photo.


Nice fist structure. That’s what counts.


----------



## Buka

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Nice fist structure. That’s what counts.


Welcome to MartialTalk, Wing Woo Gar.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, Wing Woo Gar.


Aw thanks for having me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Wing Woo Gar said:


> No sandwich or burrito has ever defeated him. His open mouth technique cannot be defended.


Not sure what mocking his weight has to do with the topic.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

gpseymour said:


> Not sure what mocking his weight has to do with the topic.


Poor physical condition has plenty to do with it.  If you can’t take a little ribbing, you shouldn’t post videos. I’m joking. Is this martial arts talk or snowflake story time?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Poor physical condition has plenty to do with it.  If you can’t take a little ribbing, you shouldn’t post videos. I’m joking. Is this martial arts talk or snowflake story time?


Well, now I know your attitude toward disagreement. Childish.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Poor physical condition has plenty to do with it.  If you can’t take a little ribbing, you shouldn’t post videos. I’m joking. Is this martial arts talk or snowflake story time?


You might want to take another look at the site banner. A key word is "friendly" and you'll find that in the TOS here as well. 
Just be nice. Doesn't seem that much to ask...


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

gpseymour said:


> Well, now I know your attitude toward disagreement. Childish.


Aw jeez. I’m teasing. I apologize. I mean no harm. I’m sincerely sorry.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Poor physical condition has plenty to do with it.


I'd have some technical critiques of the form demonstrated in the video, if anyone asked. (No one has, so I'll keep those to myself for now.) However I would caution against judging a martial artist based just on their weight. 

This guy ...




...certainly seems to be more flabby and overweight than the gentleman in the video you were commenting on. It didn't keep him from having a successful career at the highest levels of MMA, with wins over some of the best fighters in the world. I'd venture to say that he could teach some useful things to just about anybody on this forum.


----------



## Unkogami

More proof wrestling is best!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Aw jeez. I’m teasing. I apologize. I mean no harm. I’m sincerely sorry.


Sorry if I overreacted. I honestly didn't read it as a harmless tease.


----------



## Buka

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd have some technical critiques of the form demonstrated in the video, if anyone asked. (No one has, so I'll keep those to myself for now.) However I would caution against judging a martial artist based just on their weight.
> 
> This guy ...
> View attachment 27359
> ...certainly seems to be more flabby and overweight than the gentleman in the video you were commenting on. It didn't keep him from having a successful career at the highest levels of MMA, with wins over some of the best fighters in the world. I'd venture to say that he could teach some useful things to just about anybody on this forum.


He certainly can rock and roll. Isn't he a black b belt in BJJ as well?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Buka said:


> He certainly can rock and roll. Isn't he a black b belt in BJJ as well?


Yep, and a pretty good one. Not world champion level or anything, but certainly well above average.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Again, I am sincerely sorry for my comment.  I regret ever posting it.  I apologize to the gentleman in the video, and any other person who was offended. It was a poor attempt at a joke, nothing more.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian

Solution: use the elbow. More devastating and less injury risk but closer range required.


----------



## Oily Dragon

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd have some technical critiques of the form demonstrated in the video, if anyone asked. (No one has, so I'll keep those to myself for now.) However I would caution against judging a martial artist based just on their weight.
> 
> This guy ...
> View attachment 27359
> ...certainly seems to be more flabby and overweight than the gentleman in the video you were commenting on. It didn't keep him from having a successful career at the highest levels of MMA, with wins over some of the best fighters in the world. I'd venture to say that he could teach some useful things to just about anybody on this forum.



The literal embodiment of Shaolin.

Have you seen him lately?  The training has actually reversed his aging process.

This picture is fake but worth it.


----------



## Urban Trekker

I don't know why anyone would say it's a bad idea to use boxing in a street fight.  In my estimation, boxing is probably the martial art with the highest representation among those that have been successfully used in street fights.  The hoods and barrios all over the country, where street fights are most likely to happen?  That's where the boxing gyms are.  The most effective untrained fighters who scrap on the streets?  The way they fight most closely resembles boxing.  In my opinion, boxing is the one martial art that can never be overrated.


----------



## dvcochran

Urban Trekker said:


> I don't know why anyone would say it's a bad idea to use boxing in a street fight.  In my estimation, boxing is probably the martial art with the highest representation among those that have been successfully used in street fights.  The hoods and barrios all over the country, where street fights are most likely to happen?  That's where the boxing gyms are.  The most effective untrained fighters who scrap on the streets?  The way they fight most closely resembles boxing.  In my opinion, boxing is the one martial art that can never be overrated.


This is not bad logic by virtue of how many boxing gyms there are. Probably one of the least expensive striking styles to practice out there. A heavy bag or speed bag and some gloves. 
Ring excluded of course.


----------



## J. Pickard

I'm kind of sick of self defense "experts" telling people boxing is bad for self defense. Its one of the oldest styles of combat after wrestling (of any kind) that has stood the test of time. I've also only been KO'd by a strike twice in my life: once was an accidental elbow strike from my instructor (Long story short, we ended up back to back, he turned with his guard up and one arm slightly raised, I turned with my head first right into his elbow) and the other was an amateur boxer with a natural talent and a bad temper and no sense of humor. He didn't have gloves on so maybe his hand hurt but I promise you my whole everything hurt way worse than his hand. Punching, when done properly, is effective. No technique is without risk. 

also, if the guy in this video was the coach/instructor for the course you may want to check his credentials. His technique seems very sloppy and untested like someone who got all of their training exclusively from a bargain bin book.


----------



## angelariz

Chrisinmd said:


> Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in your hand?  I contacted a self defense instructor and told him I wanted to take boxing lessons for self defense.  He responded there are to many small delicate bones in the hand to be punching an assailant in a life or death situation and that it is not uncommon at all for even professional boxers to break there hands during fights even when they are wrapped and gloved.  So he said that it be reckless and irresponsible for him to teach me boxing for self defense and put me in a situation where I could lose my life based on what he teaches.
> 
> And then he referred me to this youtube video for an alternative to hitting with boxing punches.  What do you think?


Boxing and or Muay Thai is the best for self defense against untrained people on your feet. Anyone who isn't training westsrn boxing is missing out on what is the most realistic and visceral response to aggression.


----------



## J. Pickard

angelariz said:


> Boxing and or Muay Thai is the best for self defense against untrained people on your feet. Anyone who isn't training westsrn boxing is missing out on what is the most realistic and visceral response to aggression.


I don't know man, I think the 100 meter dash might be the most realistic and visceral response to aggression for many  😄😄


----------



## Flying Crane

angelariz said:


> Boxing and or Muay Thai is the best for self defense against untrained people on your feet. Anyone who isn't training westsrn boxing is missing out on what is the most realistic and visceral response to aggression.


Sure, everyone has an opinion.


----------



## Flying Crane

Speaking of opinions, I’ll go ahead and share mine.

Of course boxing can be an effective method of self defense.  Anyone saying otherwise doesn’t know much.

I’m no boxer, but I have an observation to make and it seems that in six pages of discussion, the real issue hasn’t been addressed.  Boxers use wraps and gloves to protect their hands.  This makes sense because they pound on a heavy bag and on pads a lot, and they need to keep their hands safe so they don’t disrupt their career with an injury. This holds true for training and for competition.  The hands and wrists are wrapped for support, and they wear gloves for further protection of the hand.  

The problem is, the wraps and gloves change the structure of the fist and can hide minor flaws in technique and protect the hand from injury during a punch that, had the fist not been wrapped and gloved, would have caused an injury.  So if a boxer ALWAYS uses wraps and gloves, they may never realize there are flaws in their technique, and furthermore they may never develop the conditioning to withstand the impact without that protection.  So if they ever need to punch someone in self defense, without that protection, without wraps and gloves, it is possible they may land the punch with poor alignment and poor fist structure, and they end up with a broken hand.  

The obvious solution is to spend time hitting heavy bags and pads without wraps and gloves.  Do it bare-handed, learn what it feels like to punch without protection, understand the alignment and how little errors can lead to injury on impact.  Understand that you likely cannot punch as hard without that protection, without risking injury.  Develop the conditioning to handle a bare-knuckle punch. 

So this isn’t a problem with boxing, but rather a problem with the likely training habits of competitive boxers.  Those training for competition will follow the best practices to that end, and of course that makes sense.  But that may not be the best training approach for self defense on the street.  Of course this isn’t difficult to overcome with the addition of even occasional practices to deal with those issues.


----------



## caped crusader

Boxing really is a skill and is a martial art.  Goes back also to Greek, Roman times.  I considered myself a pretty good fighter on the cobbles(street) but i really learned Boxing in the Military. My first sparring i was hit constantly, so i learned how not to be hit and counter.  was an eye opener for me to experience how skilled even amatuer boxing is.  The fitness training alone and diet was hard.  Running in snow in tracksuit & army boots over Tank ranges.  raw and brutal no fancy ****.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Speaking of opinions, I’ll go ahead and share mine.
> 
> Of course boxing can be an effective method of self defense.  Anyone saying otherwise doesn’t know much.
> 
> I’m no boxer, but I have an observation to make and it seems that in six pages of discussion, the real issue hasn’t been addressed.  Boxers use wraps and gloves to protect their hands.  This makes sense because they pound on a heavy bag and on pads a lot, and they need to keep their hands safe so they don’t disrupt their career with an injury. This holds true for training and for competition.  The hands and wrists are wrapped for support, and they wear gloves for further protection of the hand.
> 
> The problem is, the wraps and gloves change the structure of the fist and can hide minor flaws in technique and protect the hand from injury during a punch that, had the fist not been wrapped and gloved, would have caused an injury.  So if a boxer ALWAYS uses wraps and gloves, they may never realize there are flaws in their technique, and furthermore they may never develop the conditioning to withstand the impact without that protection.  So if they ever need to punch someone in self defense, without that protection, without wraps and gloves, it is possible they may land the punch with poor alignment and poor fist structure, and they end up with a broken hand.
> 
> The obvious solution is to spend time hitting heavy bags and pads without wraps and gloves.  Do it bare-handed, learn what it feels like to punch without protection, understand the alignment and how little errors can lead to injury on impact.  Understand that you likely cannot punch as hard without that protection, without risking injury.  Develop the conditioning to handle a bare-knuckle punch.
> 
> So this isn’t a problem with boxing, but rather a problem with the likely training habits of competitive boxers.  Those training for competition will follow the best practices to that end, and of course that makes sense.  But that may not be the best training approach for self defense on the street.  Of course this isn’t difficult to overcome with the addition of even occasional practices to deal with those issues.



Three issues.

Bare knuckle boxers train with gloves and wraps.

The issue is volume of training that damages hands therefore the wraps.

You can break your hands wearing gloves. So poor technique isn't really disguised.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> The issue is volume of training that damages hands therefore the wraps.


I heard some boxing coaches who have their guys train without wraps for conditioning purposes who would disagree.  These coaches made the statement that it conditions the hand and wrist and teaches more effective punching from a structure approach.  

My understanding of wraps is that it supports structure when using a glove that distorts structure.   The size of the glove increases the risk that the outside of the glove may cause greater movement of the structure of the fist. This only applies to wraps for boxing gloves


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Bare knuckle boxers train with gloves and wraps.


Wraps can be used for different reasons. Just because one group wears wraps doesn't mean that's the same reason why another group uses it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Three issues.
> 
> Bare knuckle boxers train with gloves and wraps.
> 
> The issue is volume of training that damages hands therefore the wraps.
> 
> You can break your hands wearing gloves. So poor technique isn't really disguised.


I think the point was meant to be not that training with gloves/wrap is bad, but that not training without them is. I certainly get more feedback without them, though there's some technique to using puffy gloves properly, too - the rounded shape makes some strikes put more off-axis pressure on the wrist. So, yeah, injury can still occur - a part of that risk is specifically due to some of the characteristics of the gloves.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

J. Pickard said:


> I don't know man, I think the 100 meter dash might be the most realistic and visceral response to aggression for many  😄😄





Gerry Seymour said:


> I think the point was meant to be not that training with gloves/wrap is bad, but that not training without them is. I certainly get more feedback without them, though there's some technique to using puffy gloves properly, too - the rounded shape makes some strikes put more off-axis pressure on the wrist. So, yeah, injury can still occur - a part of that risk is specifically due to some of the characteristics of the gloves.


I trained in boxing as a kid, many times i hurt my wrists for various reasons Including that off axis pressure that you speak of.  A long time ago, afierce a couple of years of  training in cma with correct structure I found that I prefer no glove, no wrap because of better feedback and because I don’t have to fight the tape and wrap to get proper structure in the fist. That said, I DO still use bag gloves with the heavy bag to protect my skin. I guess my point is that ( for me personally) I think I may have been better off to learn to structure my fist first and THEN use tape and wraps. I find gloves have an almost crippling effect on certain types of strikes, and obviously make some types of fists unusable (ginger fist, mantis beak, single knuckle, leopard fist etc.).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I trained in boxing as a kid, many times i hurt my wrists for various reasons Including that off axis pressure that you speak of.  A long time ago, afierce a couple of years of  training in cma with correct structure I found that I prefer no glove, no wrap because of better feedback and because I don’t have to fight the tape and wrap to get proper structure in the fist. That said, I DO still use bag gloves with the heavy bag to protect my skin. I guess my point is that ( for me personally) I think I may have been better off to learn to structure my fist first and THEN use tape and wraps. I find gloves have an almost crippling effect on certain types of strikes, and obviously make some types of fists unusable (ginger fist, mantis beak, single knuckle, leopard fist etc.).


I like the heavy gloves mostly because they are heavy, and because newer students feel more confident when heavy gloves are involved.


----------



## JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf said:


> Wraps can be used for different reasons. Just because one group wears wraps doesn't mean that's the same reason why another group uses it.


I'm not an MMA guy and I don't train in an MMA school, but all of this sounds familiar to what I've seen training in my kung fu schools as a student and in the school where I was an Instructor. At 7:45 he talks about the same things I've claimed about me punching at 40% - 50% power.  "Do it right. Start Light" is TMA in general.  A lot of what is here has been stated by others numerous times.  The only thing I don't agree with completely is the bloody knuckles comment.  You can condition the hand and knuckles to an acceptable level to where the knuckles no longer bleed.  Bleeding is just a sign that you punches are going directly into the bag.  Once you get the punching technique correct and a little tough skin on your knuckles then the bleeding doesn't happen and you can train as much as you can.  So long as you aren't sliding the knuckles across the bag like you are trying to light a match.






I really like this one so far (I always like a good story)


----------



## Dirty Dog

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not an MMA guy and I don't train in an MMA school, but all of this sounds familiar to what I've seen training in my kung fu schools as a student and in the school where I was an Instructor. At 7:45 he talks about the same things I've claimed about me punching at 40% - 50% power.  "Do it right. Start Light" is TMA in general.  A lot of what is here has been stated by others numerous times.  The only thing I don't agree with completely is the bloody knuckles comment.  You can condition the hand and knuckles to an acceptable level to where the knuckles no longer bleed.  Bleeding is just a sign that you punches are going directly into the bag.  Once you get the punching technique correct and a little tough skin on your knuckles then the bleeding doesn't happen and you can train as much as you can.  So long as you aren't sliding the knuckles across the bag like you are trying to light a match.


I've long believed that, in general, the best approach is to start with wraps and bag gloves. As technique and conditioning improve, transition to wraps alone. Eventually you move to bare hands.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I think I may have been better off to learn to structure my fist first and THEN use tape and wraps. I find gloves have an almost crippling effect on certain types of strikes, and obviously make some types of fists unusable (ginger fist, mantis beak, single knuckle, leopard fist etc.).


I used a pair of boxing gloves without wrap and I've never had to mentally focus so much on my fist structure and wrist structure as much as I did that day.  That glove moved around so much that I thought I would miss or glance a punch that would tilt the glove and as a result tilt my wrist.  I didn't have trouble keeping the fist structure because I naturally lock my thumb on the side of my fist.  I don't think I could say the same if I wrapped my thumb around my fist.  With all of that said,  I could see how I could easy injury myself if I got lazy with my fist structure.   It made me really thankful for all of the time my teacher hounded me about bad fist structure and the importance of fist structure.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Dirty Dog said:


> I've long believed that, in general, the best approach is to start with wraps and bag gloves. As technique and conditioning improve, transition to wraps alone. Eventually you move to bare hands.


That's doable.  It gets you to the same place so long as it transitions to the bare hands.  Your way is definitely a much faster way to get to the fun stuff which is to nail that bag once that's out of your system you can focus on the smaller critical points.   In TMA schools that go in the other direction.  It seems like it takes forever to get to the fun and exciting stuff.  No one wants to join a school only to have to hit a heavy bag softly.  Students that trust the teacher will suffer through that boring and slow period and become happy at the end.   Your way starts with the happiness first.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> I've long believed that, in general, the best approach is to start with wraps and bag gloves. As technique and conditioning improve, transition to wraps alone. Eventually you move to bare hands.


I’ve always gone in the other direction (partly due to lack of proper communal equipment) and have wondered if it wouldn’t be better reversed.


----------



## JowGaWolf

This one is for @Alan0354 

Turning the torso (waist not hips) is another concept found in Chinese TMA you see it mostly in the long fist styles.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Gerry Seymour said:


> I like the heavy gloves mostly because they are heavy, and because newer students feel more confident when heavy gloves are involved.


Have you had this experience where the first time you put gloves and a mouth piece on new students and they start mouth breathing and standing up straight rigid? It seems like it takes people a few times before they can relax, and a lot more before they remember their training. The ones who have done some boxing don’t freak out as much. What is it about the gloves that does that? These are folks that usually have a year or so of consistent training under their belt. Just curious if anyone has thoughts on this?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

JowGaWolf said:


> This one is for @Alan0354
> 
> Turning the torso (waist not hips) is another concept found in Chinese TMA you see it mostly in the long fist styles.


Yep we do it that way.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

JowGaWolf said:


> I used a pair of boxing gloves without wrap and I've never had to mentally focus so much on my fist structure and wrist structure as much as I did that day.  That glove moved around so much that I thought I would miss or glance a punch that would tilt the glove and as a result tilt my wrist.  I didn't have trouble keeping the fist structure because I naturally lock my thumb on the side of my fist.  I don't think I could say the same if I wrapped my thumb around my fist.  With all of that said,  I could see how I could easy injury myself if I got lazy with my fist structure.   It made me really thankful for all of the time my teacher hounded me about bad fist structure and the importance of fist structure.


Exactly! I tried that myself and the same experience.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gerry Seymour said:


> I’ve always gone in the other direction (partly due to lack of proper communal equipment) and have wondered if it wouldn’t be better reversed.


My thought is to prevent injury early. Most people will start with less than full power punches. If they hurt themselves, they're going to hold back. If not, they will ramp up to full power. One thing... I don't ever use boxing gloves. I recommend bag gloves. Essentially MMA-style gloves with wrist wraps and a bar across palm. Boxing gloves seem too big and pillow-like and will not foster good technique to the same degree.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Gerry Seymour said:


> I’ve always gone in the other direction (partly due to lack of proper communal equipment) and have wondered if it wouldn’t be better reversed.


I wouldn't say it's better or worse.  It's definitely more Entertaining for beginners and more tempting to avoid the last part of that which is bare knuckles.   Beginners want to get in the gym and hit hard.  Dirty Dog's way would get that out of their system a lot quicker.  Once the student gets over the excitement of hitting hard, they can not focus on that boring, but important stuff. 

When I first got into Jow Ga,  my co-worker was doing boxing.  We kind of went "tough man" on the bag to show off our power.  He used gloves I used my fist, he eventually Went from gloves to a pair of bag gloves that I still have today (those things are nasty now. lol).  I tried to get him to go the other direction and it killed him.  He didn't want to hit soft because it doesn't look or feel as tough.  It's really difficult to start small and focus on the small stuff at first.  I prefer that way, but it's still not easy for me. 

I think it's a longer way because it's so easy to neglect that small stuff.  It would be like if you were train to get stronger with me.  We would start with 2lbs or 4lbs, and you wouldn't feel stronger for the first 5 months, but you would get stronger.  It's just that you wouldn't notice it until you apply it.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yep we do it that way.


I wouldn’t say that is the best example in that video but the concept is there. I teach them to isolate the waist turn and learn to hold the hip still until they get control of each independently. It’s more useful in my experience to be able to add or remove on the split second. Similarly, I teach both sides for every motion and stance. I want equal utility in each side of every stance or technique.


----------



## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> This one is for @Alan0354
> 
> Turning the torso (waist not hips) is another concept found in Chinese TMA you see it mostly in the long fist styles.


Conceptually there are similarities but the mechanics of how he goes about it is very different from what I am experienced with.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Dirty Dog said:


> My thought is to prevent injury early. Most people will start with less than full power punches. If they hurt themselves, they're going to hold back. If not, they will ramp up to full power. One thing... I don't ever use boxing gloves. I recommend bag gloves. Essentially MMA-style gloves with wrist wraps and a bar across palm. Boxing gloves seem too big and pillow-like and will not foster good technique to the same degree.


The mma gloves didn’t exist when I was a kid, I totally agree with what you are saying here though.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> Conceptually there are similarities but the mechanics of how he goes about it is very different from what I am experienced with.


Same here.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The mma gloves didn’t exist when I was a kid, I totally agree with what you are saying here though.


When I started, everything was bare knuckle. And foot. Technology advances, and I think it's good to take advantage of that.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Dirty Dog said:


> When I started, everything was bare knuckle. And foot. Technology advances, and I think it's good to take advantage of that.


Absolutely. I’m getting old, but there is still a lot for me to learn.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> Conceptually there are similarities but the mechanics of how he goes about it is very different from what I am experienced with.


It's going to very mechanically depending on the technique that is being used.  A person will be able to shape the concept to fit the technique so long as they understand how to generate that power a specific way. There's a limited number of ways to twist the torso (waist) for punching.

This is him using the torso to generate power. Keep in mind this isn't a punching technique.  It's just a exercise he uses to training how to generate power with the torso (waist).





Same as this.  I like this video good information here and visual example between twisting the waist vs just using the arms.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Have you had this experience where the first time you put gloves and a mouth piece on new students and they start mouth breathing and standing up straight rigid? It seems like it takes people a few times before they can relax, and a lot more before they remember their training. The ones who have done some boxing don’t freak out as much. What is it about the gloves that does that? These are folks that usually have a year or so of consistent training under their belt. Just curious if anyone has thoughts on this?


Not too much, but that may be because of how they get started. My students start with "defensive sparring": a more senior person (usually me) stays on the offensive with very light-touch attacks, while the student has to defend without any offense. They are working on three things: learning to function "inside the storm", footwork to control angle and distance, and a small amount of body/arm usage to block/jam. For most students, the next level is simply the reverse - again, working with someone more senior (usually me). 

During this whole time, they're also learning to punch and some basic footwork, mostly on the bag (with some traditional drills, especially for those who struggle). They start there without gloves, and we work with whatever gloves are available and suitable, when that makes sense (hands get sore, or I decide they are ready to work with gloves).

By the time they are putting in mouth guards and donning gloves for sparring, they've usually been working on relaxing and being comfortable with very light-touch exercises a few weeks and have gotten used to the gloves at the bag. Anyone who comes in already having sparring experience still goes through these stages, but mostly for evaluation. If they do okay at them the first time, we move straight to more significant sparring.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> My thought is to prevent injury early. Most people will start with less than full power punches. If they hurt themselves, they're going to hold back. If not, they will ramp up to full power. One thing... I don't ever use boxing gloves. I recommend bag gloves. Essentially MMA-style gloves with wrist wraps and a bar across palm. Boxing gloves seem too big and pillow-like and will not foster good technique to the same degree.


I had bag gloves and MMA gloves available at the last place I taught. I liked those much better than boxing gloves for students practicing punches. At previous locations, we only had whatever I was able to haul in in a bag, so gloves were a sometime thing, except one location had boxing gloves there, so we ended up using those more often.

I haven't had a student do anything yet to injure themselves, but I've mostly had middle-aged folks (nearly all over 35), and they tend to take a more reasoned start than the young bucks I used to train with.

I mostly like boxing gloves for the weight they add to the arm during sparring. It highlights the usual issue of folks dropping their hands as they get tired. And if they break that habit with 10-16 oz on their hands, they're unlikely to drop their bare hands.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> I wouldn't say it's better or worse.  It's definitely more Entertaining for beginners and more tempting to avoid the last part of that which is bare knuckles.   Beginners want to get in the gym and hit hard.  Dirty Dog's way would get that out of their system a lot quicker.  Once the student gets over the excitement of hitting hard, they can not focus on that boring, but important stuff.
> 
> When I first got into Jow Ga,  my co-worker was doing boxing.  We kind of went "tough man" on the bag to show off our power.  He used gloves I used my fist, he eventually Went from gloves to a pair of bag gloves that I still have today (those things are nasty now. lol).  I tried to get him to go the other direction and it killed him.  He didn't want to hit soft because it doesn't look or feel as tough.  It's really difficult to start small and focus on the small stuff at first.  I prefer that way, but it's still not easy for me.
> 
> I think it's a longer way because it's so easy to neglect that small stuff.  It would be like if you were train to get stronger with me.  We would start with 2lbs or 4lbs, and you wouldn't feel stronger for the first 5 months, but you would get stronger.  It's just that you wouldn't notice it until you apply it.


I never seem to get the beginners who want to hit hard. I remember them back in the day, but I mostly get adults (over 35) since I moved up here, so that might be the difference. I've spent a lot of time getting students to hit a bit harder each time.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not too much, but that may be because of how they get started. My students start with "defensive sparring": a more senior person (usually me) stays on the offensive with very light-touch attacks, while the student has to defend without any offense. They are working on three things: learning to function "inside the storm", footwork to control angle and distance, and a small amount of body/arm usage to block/jam. For most students, the next level is simply the reverse - again, working with someone more senior (usually me).
> 
> During this whole time, they're also learning to punch and some basic footwork, mostly on the bag (with some traditional drills, especially for those who struggle). They start there without gloves, and we work with whatever gloves are available and suitable, when that makes sense (hands get sore, or I decide they are ready to work with gloves).
> 
> By the time they are putting in mouth guards and donning gloves for sparring, they've usually been working on relaxing and being comfortable with very light-touch exercises a few weeks and have gotten used to the gloves at the bag. Anyone who comes in already having sparring experience still goes through these stages, but mostly for evaluation. If they do okay at them the first time, we move straight to more significant sparring.


Ok all that makes sense. I should say that without ”sparring” per se, they have, at this point engaged in contact two man drills, six star, etc. They know what hard contact feels like, but i find that when gloves go on the first  time they just fall apart. Everyone tends to calm down after the second or third time so I don’t worry about it, but I am curious about why it happens so consistently.


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## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Wraps can be used for different reasons. Just because one group wears wraps doesn't mean that's the same reason why another group uses it.



So what would be the other reason for wearing wraps?


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## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> It's going to very mechanically depending on the technique that is being used.  A person will be able to shape the concept to fit the technique so long as they understand how to generate that power a specific way. There's a limited number of ways to twist the torso (waist) for punching.
> 
> This is him using the torso to generate power. Keep in mind this isn't a punching technique.  It's just a exercise he uses to training how to generate power with the torso (waist).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same as this.  I like this video good information here and visual example between twisting the waist vs just using the arms.


The torso should not be twisting.  It should be rotating, driven by the feet, and there ought to be consistency in the methodology regardless of the specific technique.  At least that is how my system is structured.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> The torso should not be twisting.  It should be rotating, driven by the feet, and there ought to be consistency in the methodology regardless of the specific technique.  At least that is how my system is structured.


Yep same same.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> The torso should not be twisting.  It should be rotating, driven by the feet, and there ought to be consistency in the methodology regardless of the specific technique.  At least that is how my system is structured.


Semantics? Rotating versus twisting? Sounds like different ways of describing the same concept. All of what you both say is relatable to how I understand it. Pulling with the bottom of the foot, squeezing the legs, rotating/turning/twisting the waist…


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> The torso should not be twisting.  It should be rotating, driven by the feet, and there ought to be consistency in the methodology regardless of the specific technique.  At least that is how my system is structured.


Do you hold the hip still in your system? We do it that way but add the hip in hooks and a few others.


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## caped crusader

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The mma gloves didn’t exist when I was a kid, I totally agree with what you are saying here though.


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## Gerry Seymour

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok all that makes sense. I should say that without ”sparring” per se, they have, at this point engaged in contact two man drills, six star, etc. They know what hard contact feels like, but i find that when gloves go on the first  time they just fall apart. Everyone tends to calm down after the second or third time so I don’t worry about it, but I am curious about why it happens so consistently.


I'd guess (with too little information for this to be an educated guess) that something about the situation feels dramatically different to them. Enough is changing (at least, to them) at the same time that they have anxiety about it. Perhaps they've seen senior students going at it hard, and that's their expectation of what goes on once the gloves are on, or something like that.


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## Gerry Seymour

caped crusader said:


> View attachment 27645


I have a pair of those. They were labeled "kempo gloves" where I got them. They are considerably puffier than MMA gloves.


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## caped crusader

Gerry Seymour said:


> I have a pair of those. They were labeled "kempo gloves" where I got them. They are considerably puffier than MMA gloves.


yeah but i think it paved the way for what we now have. Bruce Lee was a real pioneer !


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## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Semantics? Rotating versus twisting? Sounds like different ways of describing the same concept. All of what you both say is relatable to how I understand it. Pulling with the bottom of the foot, squeezing the legs, rotating/turning/twisting the waist…


Could be, but to me they are different.  Twisting implies that the hips stay where they are and the shoulders rotate, causing the spine to twist.  Rotate means the entire torso, from hips to shoulders, turn as a single unit without (or minimized) twisting the spine.  Twisting can be done with little or no engagement of the legs, while rotation is pushed from the feet and legs.  From what I’ve seen, it seems like a lot of people twist from the shoulders and don’t engage the legs as much as they could.  That is one of the things I didn’t like about the video, it all seemed to come from the shoulders and not from the legs and feet.  The feet were turning over as a result of the shoulders turning, rather than as the root pushing that turn.


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## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Do you hold the hip still in your system? We do it that way but add the hip in hooks and a few others.


We rotate the entire torso, from hips to shoulders, by pushing on the ground with the feet.  The energy from the push is directed into the hips to turn from one side to the other.  This causes the hip joints to open and close as you turn from one side to the other, and back again, as you throw one punch after another.


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## Wing Woo Gar

caped crusader said:


> View attachment 27645


I stand corrected. What I should have said was that I couldn’t afford them even if I had known they existed.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'd guess (with too little information for this to be an educated guess) that something about the situation feels dramatically different to them. Enough is changing (at least, to them) at the same time that they have anxiety about it. Perhaps they've seen senior students going at it hard, and that's their expectation of what goes on once the gloves are on, or something like that.


That is very likely. Good insights! Thank you. There has definitely been blood on the floor in the 1 vs 2 sparring of senior students.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> We rotate the entire torso, from hips to shoulders, by pushing on the ground with the feet.  The energy from the push is directed into the hips to turn from one side to the other.  This causes the hip joints to open and close as you turn from one side to the other, and back again, as you throw one punch after another.


Ok that is very different. I believe you and I discussed this difference over a video on another thread. This is tibetan white crane you are describing?


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## caped crusader

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I stand corrected. What I should have said was that I couldn’t afford them even if I had known they existed.


well i was just born in 66. even growing up in the 70s & 80s i only saw boxing gloves. If i showed up then at a local boxing club with his gloves i would have been laughed at.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> Could be, but to me they are different.  Twisting implies that the hips stay where they are and the shoulders rotate, causing the spine to twist.  Rotate means the entire torso, from hips to shoulders, turn as a single unit without (or minimized) twisting the spine.  Twisting can be done with little or no engagement of the legs, while rotation is pushed from the feet and legs.  From what I’ve seen, it seems like a lot of people twist from the shoulders and don’t engage the legs as much as they could.  That is one of the things I didn’t like about the video, it all seemed to come from the shoulders and not from the legs and feet.  The feet were turning over as a result of the shoulders turning, rather than as the root pushing that turn.


I understand now what you mean. i agree that it must come from the root and the legs drive the motion. We emphasize turning the waist not the shoulders. We leave the hip still. Moving the below the waist body independently of the above the waist body. Like tank and turret. Both are useful and it seems as if the ultimate goal of motion is very similar even if the method differs. Thank you for your explanation.


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## Wing Woo Gar

caped crusader said:


> well i was just born in 66. even growing up in the 70s & 80s i only saw boxing gloves. If i showed up then at a local boxing club with his gloves i would have been laughed at.


I only had the gloves given me by my uncle, the kids at the boxing gym would have laughed at me regardless.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> We rotate the entire torso, from hips to shoulders, by pushing on the ground with the feet.  The energy from the push is directed into the hips to turn from one side to the other.  This causes the hip joints to open and close as you turn from one side to the other, and back again, as you throw one punch after another.


Interesting, Do you have video reference? I would like to see it. I am as much a student of motion and physics as I am of martial arts. It’s all one big thing to me. Always interested in other peoples styles.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> We rotate the entire torso, from hips to shoulders, by pushing on the ground with the feet.  The energy from the push is directed into the hips to turn from one side to the other.  This causes the hip joints to open and close as you turn from one side to the other, and back again, as you throw one punch after another.


Maybe we should start a thread on this? I’m curious how jow ga and Xue and others do it also.


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## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok that is very different. I believe you and I discussed this difference over a video on another thread. This is tibetan white crane you are describing?


Yep, and it is honestly a bit difficult to describe in writing, without being able to show.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Gerry Seymour said:


> I never seem to get the beginners who want to hit hard. I remember them back in the day, but I mostly get adults (over 35) since I moved up here, so that might be the difference. I've spent a lot of time getting students to hit a bit harder each time.


I’m lucky I’m in a college town, lots of young folks here.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> Yep, and it is honestly a bit difficult to describe in writing, without being able to show.


Oh I totally understand that. Even showing it doesnt tell the whole story.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> So what would be the other reason for wearing wraps?


Reasons for wearing hand wraps.
1. *Protect the skin* from breaking open - Heavy bag training
2. *Protect the* *fist* - Muay Boran Wraps & Dambe
3. *Protect the* *fist structure* (Fist and Wrist)  - Boxing
4. To *cause more damage* to the opponent - Muay Boran Wraps

I had to separate the fist and fist structure because there's a difference between the two.  You can do one without the other.  To my knowledge #2 only protects the fist and not the wrist.  If anything you will get forearm protection.  It may seem minor, but if you get good with attacking your opponents forearms then he'll be less willing to punch.


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## JowGaWolf

Gerry Seymour said:


> Enough is changing (at least, to them) at the same time that they have anxiety about it. Perhaps they've seen senior students going at it hard, and that's their expectation of what goes on once the gloves are on, or something like that.


This was the major cause of sparring hesitation.  They would see advance level students spar and work themselves in an imagine reality, thinking they would get the same treatment.

I never knew this until a student spar with us after 5 years of training.  He had fun and he said the though we were going to hit him hard.  I so shocked, that I asked him why did he think that. Then he said he saw how the instructors sparred and he didn't want to get hit like that.  

The next time I teach I will go into more detail about sparring and what happens at each level.  Hopefully this will help cut down that anxiety.


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## JowGaWolf

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Maybe we should start a thread on this? I’m curious how jow ga and Xue and others do it also.


For me it's very similar to Flying crane.  I understand the things that he says about twisting from shoulders and the challenges.


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## Wing Woo Gar

JowGaWolf said:


> For me it's very similar to Flying crane.  I understand the things that he says about twisting from shoulders and the challenges.


Wing Woo Gar has elements of Hung Gar, Mok Gar, Choy Li Fut, Tong long pai, Tam Tui, and some others. We practice Yang long Tai Chi Chuan also as part of the system. Sifu James Wing Woo trained with Lau Bun in San Francisco at the good citizens club as well. We train with cotton soled slippers on a waxed, polished concrete floor that is very slippery. Deep horse stance exercise and low stance Tai chi is very difficult and more athletic in nature under theses circumstances. The floor serves several purposes, one side effect is that people cannot kick or jump higher than they can control without falling.  Additionally, one cannot efficiently “push” against it. One must learn to “pull” with the bottom of the foot like the way a tire “pulls“ against the road. This fundamentally changes the way the student thinks about where movement originates. It applies even more obviously when tried outside with rubber soled shoes on asphalt. Ankle bend and the art of stacking and folding come into play here. My point (in this extremely long explanation) is that all this informs the way I go about the waist vs hips movement to generate power. To my students I use these maxims; the bottom moves the top, the back moves the front, the inside moves the outside. is any of that relatable? Am I making any sense? I know I’m on a bit of tangent here.


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## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wing Woo Gar has elements of Hung Gar, Mok Gar, Choy Li Fut, Tong long pai, Tam Tui, and some others. We practice Yang long Tai Chi Chuan also as part of the system. Sifu James Wing Woo trained with Lau Bun in San Francisco at the good citizens club as well. We train with cotton soled slippers on a waxed, polished concrete floor that is very slippery. Deep horse stance exercise and low stance Tai chi is very difficult and more athletic in nature under theses circumstances. The floor serves several purposes, one side effect is that people cannot kick or jump higher than they can control without falling.  Additionally, one cannot efficiently “push” against it. One must learn to “pull” with the bottom of the foot like the way a tire “pulls“ against the road. This fundamentally changes the way the student thinks about where movement originates. It applies even more obviously when tried outside with rubber soled shoes on asphalt. Ankle bend and the art of stacking and folding come into play here. My point (in this extremely long explanation) is that all this informs the way I go about the waist vs hips movement to generate power. To my students I use these maxims; the bottom moves the top, the back moves the front, the inside moves the outside. is any of that relatable? Am I making any sense? I know I’m on a bit of tangent here.


Interesting concept, pulling with the feet rather than pushing, while on a slippery floor.  Two thoughts come to mind.  First, is it an artificial condition that is unlikely to reflect the world outside the kwoon (at least much of the time in most climates). And, as I think on my own methods, perhaps there is an element of pulling as well, depending on circumstances.  I’ll need to ponder this a bit.


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## Gerry Seymour

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m lucky I’m in a college town, lots of young folks here.


I think my initial recruitment (via a seminar series at a YMCA I'd be teaching at) kind of set the tone. Everyone who came to the seminar series was 30+, and most were 40+. Of course, that meant that was the composition of my first classes, and you tend to get more of whatever demographic you have.


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## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> This was the major cause of sparring hesitation.  They would see advance level students spar and work themselves in an imagine reality, thinking they would get the same treatment.
> 
> I never knew this until a student spar with us after 5 years of training.  He had fun and he said the though we were going to hit him hard.  I so shocked, that I asked him why did he think that. Then he said he saw how the instructors sparred and he didn't want to get hit like that.
> 
> The next time I teach I will go into more detail about sparring and what happens at each level.  Hopefully this will help cut down that anxiety.


This is part of the reason I use the process I do. Students get introduced in a really gentle way, which also gives me a chance to see if they have a trauma response to it - actually had that happen during some seminars, so now I try to get ahead of it.


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## JowGaWolf

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Additionally, one cannot efficiently “push” against it. One must learn to “pull” with the bottom of the foot like the way a tire “pulls“ against the road.


I think I understand this only because I spent about a month training on a slippery floor.  My garage floor is dusty so I have the same challenge of quickly moving without that big push that I would normally take or a non-slip surface.  The things I was taught with the horse stance was to Push into the ground, Pull into the ground as if I'm trying to pinch the ground, and neutral where I'm doing neither one. 



Wing Woo Gar said:


> My point (in this extremely long explanation) is that all this informs the way I go about the waist vs hips movement to generate power. To my students I use these maxims; the bottom moves the top, the back moves the front, the inside moves the outside. is any of that relatable?


This part I'm not sure about because of how I teach my son the difference.  I'll have "get out of my box" and give it some thought


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> Interesting concept, pulling with the feet rather than pushing, while on a slippery floor.  Two thoughts come to mind.  First, is it an artificial condition that is unlikely to reflect the world outside the kwoon (at least much of the time in most climates). And, as I think on my own methods, perhaps there is an element of pulling as well, depending on circumstances.  I’ll need to ponder this a bit.


Well it’s more difficult during training, but when the same concept is applied    without the slippery floor then one can apply greater pressure. It’s difficult to describe.


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## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well it’s more difficult during training, but when the same concept is applied    without the slippery floor then one can apply greater pressure. It’s difficult to describe.


I can understand the concept.  Need to give it some thought.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> I can understand the concept.  Need to give it some thought.


Watched it. Thank you so much! Very informative. Should we discuss more here or start a new thread?


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## JowGaWolf

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Watched it. Thank you so much! Very informative. Should we discuss more here or start a new thread?


We should start a new thread.


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## Wing Woo Gar

JowGaWolf said:


> We should start a new thread.


Please do. Under what heading?


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## JowGaWolf

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Please do. Under what heading?


New Thread - I tried to name it so that it fits more into your interest of Mechanics of Martial arts.  
The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement


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## Wing Woo Gar

JowGaWolf said:


> New Thread - I tried to name it so that it fits more into your interest of Mechanics of Martial arts.
> The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement


Thank you.


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