# Korean terminology question... another one.



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 8, 2010)

Uke, Nage, and Ukemi.

Someone had told me some time back that uke = jap-gi and nage = bat-gi.  Is this correct.

And what is the Korean term for Ukemi.  I know that guruke is rolling, but ukemi encompasses more than just rolling.

Thank you,

Daniel


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## MBuzzy (Mar 8, 2010)

Ooooo, tough one!!!  Give me a while!


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## MBuzzy (Mar 8, 2010)

Uke = &#48155;&#44592; (v. conj receive)
Nage = &#45912;&#51648;&#44592;(v conj throw)
Tori = &#44032;&#51648;&#44256; (v conj take)
Ukemi = &#21463;&#12369;&#36523; - Passiveness??? - &#45912;&#51256;&#51648;&#44592;


Ok, these are just notes - this is a work in progress.  Not as easy as I thought!  The first three were pretty easy, but ukemi doesn't have a direct translation, so I'm trying to find something in hanja that will express the idea in the same way....that is kind of tough though.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 8, 2010)

Just to help you out, there MBuzzy, ukemi is made up of two terms, "Uke", to recieve, and "Mi", also read as "Do", refering to the body. So Ukemi means to recieve with the body, hence it refering to rolling, breakfalling, etc. Hope that helps.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 8, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And what is the Korean term for Ukemi.  I know that guruke is rolling, but ukemi encompasses more than just rolling.



Kuruda is the verb to roll....so kurugi is a pretty literal translation of that word.  I'm not sure if it gets to the same idea though.  I'll research that one too...I mean, in America we use the term "rolling" as a slang word to mean basically grappling on the ground...


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## MBuzzy (Mar 8, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Just to help you out, there MBuzzy, ukemi is made up of two terms, "Uke", to recieve, and "Mi", also read as "Do", refering to the body. So Ukemi means to recieve with the body, hence it refering to rolling, breakfalling, etc. Hope that helps.



Interesting, this can help!  Do you have the Kanji or hiragana for just mi?  And for Do are we talking do as in "way"?  That might be an easy way to do it, just say receive with the body in Korean!  

Well, I have to get to bed, I'll work on this more tomorrow!


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## Chris Parker (Mar 8, 2010)

(This is the problem with a language made up of only two dozen or so syllables, they all mean twenty things each!)

No, the "Do" here is the same as in Kendo, when they call out the target they are hitting. It literally means "trunk", as in the trunk of the body. "Do" meaning "way" is also pronounced "michi", and literally also means "street" or "path". In the old days, some of the less-prestigous, rough and ready schools would be refered to as Michi Dojos, or Street Schools. Not "real" ones.

A search should give you the kanji for it, I can't post it here, each time I try it doesn't come out.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 9, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Ukemi = &#21463;&#12369;&#36523; - Passiveness??? - &#45912;&#51256;&#51648;&#44592;


 
Sorry, should have noticed earlier. You already have the correct kanji for "mi" there, the third character. Same as in "Sutemi", usually translated as "sacrifice", it is more literally the giving up of your body. The real confusion comes in when you see body written as "Tai", which is the entire body, rather than the trunk, which is "Mi/do". Hmm, confusing....


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

yeah, I was being lazy.    I've learned to never try to "deconstruct" a word from another language unless you know what you're doing.  In Japanese, I do not.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Uke, Nage, and Ukemi.
> 
> Someone had told me some time back that uke = jap-gi and nage = bat-gi.  Is this correct*?*


I was too late to edit, but that was supposed to be a question mark at the end of that sentence.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Uke = &#48155;&#44592; (v. conj receive)
> Nage = &#45912;&#51648;&#44592;(v conj throw)
> Tori = &#44032;&#51648;&#44256; (v conj take)
> Ukemi = &#21463;&#12369;&#36523; - Passiveness??? - &#45912;&#51256;&#51648;&#44592;
> ...


So let me see if I am reading this correctly:

&#48155;&#44592; = bad gi
&#45912;&#51648;&#44592; = deon ji gi
&#44032;&#51648;&#44256; = ka ji go
&#45912;&#51256;&#51648;&#44592; = deon jyeo ji gi

Is that the correct pronunciation?

Daniel


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So let me see if I am reading this correctly:
> 
> &#48155;&#44592; = bad gi
> &#45912;&#51648;&#44592; = deon ji gi
> ...


 
Yep, those pronunciations are right.  Sorry about that, I know I am usually a little more thorough, but I've never heard them used in Korean, so I have been using some translation resources to go between multiple languages.  This one isn't as easy...My Chinese is ok....My Korean is good....but my Japanese is well....non existant!

Hold off on the translation for Ukemi, what I have there is just a note to jog my memory, I'm not sure that is the right word.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks!

So Uke is &#48155;&#44592; = bad gi.
Nage is &#45912;&#51648;&#44592; = deon ji gi
and 
Tori is &#44032;&#51648;&#44256; = ka ji go

Am I reading that correctly?  And which is more appropriate in hapkido? Nage/Deon jigi or Tori/Ka ji go?

Daniel


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

Ok, the word &#36523; translates to &#47800; the best I can tell.  So, as much as I hate doing this....if you combine &#48155;&#44592; and &#47800;, it is probably the best way to approximate the idea.  So &#48155;&#44592;&#47800; would mean something akin to receiving body or body receives.  But mashing words together doesn't always work....so I need to find a Korean to test this out on!    I'd go with that for now, since as far as I can tell, there is no literal translation.  Ok, I have some work to do, then I'll come back and tie this all together.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Thanks!
> 
> So Uke is &#48155;&#44592; = bad gi.
> Nage is &#45912;&#51648;&#44592; = deon ji gi
> ...


 
Well, Nage is thrower and Tori is receiver. Uke is the person who receives a technique.  Uke is much more common than Tori (in my limited Aikido experience)....so I'd go with Uke over Tori.

So badgi and deonjigi is probably the best way to go.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2010)

So how do you say, "you rock" in Korean?

Daniel


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

&#45320;&#45716; &#52572;&#44256;&#50556;! (You're the best)  hahaha, it is also done by hitting the rep button!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2010)

M Buzzy,

&#45320;&#45716; &#52572;&#44256;&#50556;!

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2010)

Now, did I get this right?

&#45320;&#45716; &#52572;&#44256;&#50556; = na neun choi no ngya

I have been attempting to learn to read hangul, so I apologize if I butchered that.

Daniel


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

&#52380;&#47564;&#50640;&#50836;


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> &#52380;&#47564;&#50640;&#50836;


??

I think it reads chan ban ngae ngyo.

Daniel


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now, did I get this right?
> 
> &#45320;&#45716; &#52572;&#44256;&#50556; = na neun choi no ngya
> 
> ...


 
WELL - as long as you're looking for advice.  First thing I notice about your romanization is that you put too many spaces.  That is an american thing.  We think in terms of words, not character sets.  The thing is, Koreans write in terms of words too....but their characters are organized by syllables.  So take &#45320;&#45716; &#52572;&#44256;&#50556;.  &#45320;&#45716; is one word....that is the you're part.  The &#45320; is the word you and &#45716; is the modifier for a state of being.  So when it is romanized, you would say naneun.  &#52572;&#44256;&#50556; is also another word, which is the best part.  &#52572;&#44256; means "the best" and the &#50556; is another to be kind of modifer.  Those are kind of confusing and to be honest, I dont' fully understand them.  There are a lot and the honorifics affect them.  SO, that part would be written ch'oegoya.  

Second part is that the character &#12615; serves two purposes in the Korean language - one, it is the "letter" for the "ng" sound...but that is only when it is at the end of the syllable set.  Two, it is the "null set."  You can't start a syllable set with a vowel sound...so any character whose sound starts with a vowel will really start with a &#12615;.  This is one of the VERY VERY few exceptions in Korean.

Lastly, be aware of romanization.  There is no one way to do it and there is no correct way to do it.  You know that b/p; j/ch; t/d, etc are interchangeable and even vowel sounds can be written different ways oe/we/wae; eo/ae; eu/u etc etc etc.....there are two accepted sets of rules for doing it.  The McCune-Reischauer and the Revised Romanization of Korean styles.  Do some wikipedia reading on them and it will help you out....but to read and to translate to romaja, you have to understand both.  Then it is best if you pick one and try to stick to it.  I go back and forth....hehehe and probably need to stop doing that and pick one!!!    That is why some people's Romaja looks funny.  Ever seen someone say taegwondo?  That's why.  Even the word itself, Taekwondo....how many Americans write it Tae Kwon Do?  With the caps and everything?  To a Korean that is REALLY silly.  It would be the equivalent of an american writing Mar Tial Talk or Com Pu Ter or Ma Ga Zine (yeah, I just picked stuff from my desk).  It is a hard paradigm to change and again, I'm guilty of it sometimes.  I also do it sometimes because American's don't get it if you don't.  BUT, like I said, to a Korean...that's just silly, why would you break up a word and throw in random capitalization??


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ??
> 
> I think it reads chan ban ngae ngyo.
> 
> Daniel


 
cheonmaneyo, it means you're welcome.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 9, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ??
> 
> I think it reads chan ban ngae ngyo.
> 
> Daniel


 
The silent &#12615; should REALLY help your pronunciation too!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> &#52380;&#47564;&#50640;&#50836; 		 cheonmaneyo, it means you're welcome.


So that's what it looks like in Hangul.  I say it all the time.

Thanks!

Daniel


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## Chris Parker (Mar 10, 2010)

... I really hate to do this to you, my friend, but.....



MBuzzy said:


> Well, Nage is thrower and Tori is receiver. Uke is the person who receives a technique. Uke is much more common than Tori (in my limited Aikido experience)....so I'd go with Uke over Tori.
> 
> So badgi and deonjigi is probably the best way to go.


 
Uke is the "attacking" partner, or the one who recieves the technique (literal translation: to recieve), tori is the performer of the technique (literal translation: to take, as in to take control), and nage simply means to throw. So the pair are Uke and Tori, rather than Uke or Tori for one particular side of things.... 

Within Aikido the terms Uke and Tori are used, if weapons are involved, it often changes to Uchidachi and Shidachi (striking sword and performing sword respectively), although I have seen things such as Uchidachi and Shijo (performing jo - 4 foot stick) within schools such as Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu, so the "Uchi" and "Shi" sections are constant, with the weapon occasionally changing from system to system, depending on what is being used.

Or have I just confused things again? We were doing so well....


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## MBuzzy (Mar 10, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> ... I really hate to do this to you, my friend, but.....
> 
> Uke is the "attacking" partner, or the one who recieves the technique (literal translation: to recieve), tori is the performer of the technique (literal translation: to take, as in to take control), and nage simply means to throw. So the pair are Uke and Tori, rather than Uke or Tori for one particular side of things....
> 
> ...


 
No problem at all. I had a grand total of about 3 weeks of Aikido before work and life got crazy and I had to bow out....so my understanding is VERY limited.  also, I was reading Wikipedia for what they meant....plus, that always confused me!  

doesn't change much for me, the translations work, just that you should use the words for Uke and Tori as opposed to Nage! Thanks!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 10, 2010)

Here's one: do badgi and kajigo use the same Chinese characters as uke and tori?

Daniel


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## MBuzzy (Mar 10, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Here's one: do badgi and kajigo use the same Chinese characters as uke and tori?
> 
> Daniel


 
Yes, but the trick is finding the PURE Kanji.  I've seen Uke and Tori written in Hiragana also.  Make sure that you have the Kanji and they are the same.  The confusing part is the Kanji is called Hanja or Hanmun in Korea....same characters, different pronunciation.


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