# OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.



## drop bear (Oct 9, 2014)

You just can't. Sorry does my head in. If you need realism in training. Need to be in the area you are going to fight have access to every tool you could conceivably use because otherwise you will not be able to fight.

Then kata does not fit that module.

So I am sure you can give the value of kata based on its own merits but let's see you give the value of kata based on these merits.

_Sparring isn't a necessary part of self defense training. Beyond that, it is detrimental BECAUSE we revert to our training under duress. Unless sparring allows the person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Does sparring usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage)? No. Does scenario based training contain these elements? Yes. 

_

Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?
Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?
Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?
Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?
Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?
Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?
Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?
Do you spar only on a dry surface?
Do you spar only indoors?
Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?
Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?
Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?

_
_


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## K-man (Oct 9, 2014)

Can I just ask a simple question. Are we talking Kihon as pictured above or are we talking bunkai?
:asian:


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## Danny T (Oct 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?"


In wing chun and pekiti-tirsia; yes. In muay thai and mma sport training; no. In muay thai and mma self-defense training; yes.


> Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?


In wing chun; yes. In pekiti-tirsia; 'all' sparring contains multiply opponents w/multiple weapons. In muay thai and mma self-defense training; yes. In muay thai and mma fighter sparring no.


> Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?


Yes other than muay thai and mma fight training.


> Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?


Do we have the opportunity to de-escalate...? Do we use and train verbal sparring for de-escalation; yes.


> Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?


We create the opportunity and escape if possible. We also train what if you cannot escape because of a family member and what to do to create the opportunity for them to escape.


> Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?


No; in the dark outside and inside, in a door way, in the bathroom, in a vehicle, in a hallway, on stairs or steps.


> Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?


For safety Yes. 


> Do you spar only on a dry surface?


No.


> Do you spar only indoors?


No.


> Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?


Yes.


> Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?


To escape, yes. To the point the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack; more to the point of having physical control. We don't spar to the point the opponent is physically hurt to the point they can't continue for safety.


> Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?


Absolutely.


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## Mephisto (Oct 9, 2014)

I'm not sure I understand the OP's stance on the topic. He mentions sparring,kata, and scenario training. All of which have multiple definitions that different practitioners interpret differently. ill share my thoughts.

kata, can range from highly stylized and seemingly impractical movements to the more directly applicable series of strikes. It has its place. IMO it's a decent tool to facilitate creativity and solo training. I don't see the point of a group of students all doing a single man drill together but I guess you've got to learn somehow. I haven't spent a lot of time on kata so I don't put a lot of value in it, it just haant been a big part of the arts I've trained. I did do some tang soo do and their kata seemed very stylized but gave me something to do alone. No it can't replace two man training.

sparring, can differ widely in definition. But the best benefit of sparring is the resistance training. In reality an opponent will resist you, if you're preparing for reality you have to train with a resisting/reacting opponent. If you're not doing that you're not training for reality. Ive seen some guys who consider it sparring when you pad up and throw a half "hearted" attack and freeze while the defender throws a series of full power blows at the padded compliant attacker. If you're not resisting you're not sparring, even if you're wearing pads.

scenario training, great tool can differ widely in realism and can border on larping. No one can train for every scenario and no scenario will be identical to reality but there is surely value to scenario training. Situational awareness and de escalation principals are great tools to have, a lot of this stuff translates to street smarts and that's always a good thing to have. These skills and knowledge can be taught relatively easily at weekend seminars and classes and they have nothing to do with fighting technique but are useful nonetheless. The problem with the scenario guys is they are heavy on "deadly" techniques and multiple opponent invincibility. These are marketing ploys and ignore that fact that anyone facing multiple opponents is screwed and a 120lb guy vs 4 200lb men can't groin kick and knee stomp his way to safety. It largely depends on the situation and the character of the group of men attacking you weather you make it out alive.

in short, all training methods have their value. I still place sparring highest among these methods of you're training for reality. But you must have some compliant training and knowledge before you spar and you must have some sparring before you take on scenario training. Scenario training can emulate reality but it will still never be the same.


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## Hanzou (Oct 9, 2014)

Kata is wonderful exercise and character building. Its also a great padding for belt tests and examinations.

That's about it frankly.


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Can I just ask a simple question. Are we talking Kihon as pictured above or are we talking bunkai?
> :asian:



Don't know which one does tony blauer do?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M1z_qAv2mK4


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Danny T said:


> In wing chun and pekiti-tirsia; yes. In muay thai and mma sport training; no. In muay thai and mma self-defense training; yes.
> 
> In wing chun; yes. In pekiti-tirsia; 'all' sparring contains multiply opponents w/multiple weapons. In muay thai and mma self-defense training; yes. In muay thai and mma fighter sparring no.
> 
> ...



Wait that is the arguments against sparring specifically quoted. I am suggesting they are the same arguments against kata. I could have changed the quotes to make that a bit more understandable.


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## Mephisto (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Wait that is the arguments against sparring specifically quoted. I am suggesting they are the same arguments against kata. I could have changed the quotes to make that a bit more understandable.


You could have been much more clear in the op


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Kata is wonderful exercise and character building. Its also a great padding for belt tests and examinations.
> 
> That's about it frankly.


Now that you have said that I hope you now will leave the thread to those who want to discuss the OP. You know nothing, that is *nothing* about kata. Why disrupt this thread?


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Don't know which one does tony blauer do?
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M1z_qAv2mK4


I would have called that advanced kata, but really it is more verging on one man bunkai if there could be such a thing. That is different to what we do but if I did my bunkai without a partner it would be along those lines.
:asian:


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## Chris Parker (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You just can't. Sorry does my head in. If you need realism in training. Need to be in the area you are going to fight have access to every tool you could conceivably use because otherwise you will not be able to fight.
> 
> Then kata does not fit that module.
> 
> ...



So&#8230; you're saying you don't understand what kata is, what different forms of kata are, what the variety of kata actually are, what the arguments against sparring are, what the arguments for kata are, what the realities of self defence training are, or, well&#8230; anything you're talking about.

Does that about sum it up?



Hanzou said:


> Kata is wonderful exercise and character building. Its also a great padding for belt tests and examinations.
> 
> That's about it frankly.



Ah, Horatio&#8230; same thing. Despite your black belt in Shotokan, you really didn't learn much there, did you?



drop bear said:


> Wait that is the arguments against sparring specifically quoted. I am suggesting they are the same arguments against kata. I could have changed the quotes to make that a bit more understandable.



Yeah, you could have been clearer&#8230; I got what you were meaning (in part, at least) only because I saw the posts you took the above from&#8230; but if you think the same arguments can be made against kata, then you didn't understand the argument in the first place&#8230; nor do you understand kata&#8230; or reality self defence training&#8230; or, well&#8230; anything anyone has ever told you.

Seriously, guys, you both need to either accept that not everyone subscribes to your centrist and limited understanding of martial arts, and get that, just because people don't agree with your ideas, that doesn't make them wrong&#8230; or, if you're going to insist on such proselytising your views, at least make an effort to grasp what other people are telling you. It's getting ridiculous even engaging in any threads with either of you, as you both constantly try to tell other people the problems in what they're doing while having no clue about what they do, and not listening when you're given answers and insight.


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> You could have been much more clear in the op




Sorry.


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> So&#8230; you're saying you don't understand what kata is, what different forms of kata are, what the variety of kata actually are, what the arguments against sparring are, what the arguments for kata are, what the realities of self defence training are, or, well&#8230; anything you're talking about.
> 
> Does that about sum it up?
> 
> ...




As hominum post dude. Play the ball not the man.

I was asked to do this thread by the way.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Kata is wonderful exercise and character building. Its also a great padding for belt tests and examinations.
> 
> That's about it frankly.



Then you haven't seen any of Iain Abernethy's work with Bunkai, absolutely practical work for self defence. Others do good work in this area too.

Kata is rarely good exercise and doesn't actually build character, the Bunkai on the other hand. Too many people don't actually know what kata is for and just go through the motions of following whatever their instructor shows them, it's a shame, they are missing out on so much.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/bunkai-karates-forgotten-95


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## Chris Parker (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> As hominum post dude. Play the ball not the man.
> 
> I was asked to do this thread by the way.



Okay, then let's do it this way&#8230; 

Please explain your understanding of what kata is, and why the same arguments can be levelled at it as were levelled at sparring (for the record, they weren't arguments against sparring, they were highlighting limitations of common-term, "sports" style sparring). Every post you've made shows that you are not in possession of enough understanding to actually be in a position to discuss knowledgeably on this topic&#8230; but I'll await your clarification of your understanding first. After that, I'll go through and highlight why I believe you're entirely missed the point (based on current posts and evidence).

Oh, and it's not an ad hominem post if I'm highlighting the issues in the posts themselves&#8230; I didn't say anything about yourself or Hanzou other than that you're showing a real lack of knowledge in this area.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I was asked to do this thread by the way.



You are being dishonest with the members of the board that have thus far participated in this thread.  You were not asked to start this thread.  You began to derail another thread.  I suggested the following:



> If you're interested in kata and it's value and merits in the martial  arts, my suggestion would be to begin a separate thread so as not to  deter from this one.



Apparently, you did not follow that suggestion because this thread is a mish-mash of concepts.  The goal of which:



Is to hear yourself talk.
To up your post count.
To rail against a foundational concept of the martial arts that it is painfully obvious you don't understand.
To try to link several concepts together to prove some justification to yourself that others obviously don't agree with.

You have absolutely no depth of knowledge on the subject of kata.  But rather than opening up a conversation in which to seek information that would benefit you in your training, you open up this mish-mash of conflicting topics with a preconceived idea already stated clearly in the OP.  You are not open to learning from those here with more experience in this area.  You are here only to cause conflict.  The fact that you don't 'get' something that is a valuable training tool does not automatically invalidate it's value.

All I can add is *Don't Feed the Trolls*.


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You just can't. Sorry does my head in. If you need realism in training. Need to be in the area you are going to fight have access to every tool you could conceivably use because otherwise you will not be able to fight.
> 
> Then kata does not fit that module.
> 
> ...



I do kata.  I think that if one is going to do kata, that they should have an understanding of exactly what they're doing, otherwise, you're doing nothing more than half assed moves.  As I've said in the other thread, I do feel that sparring/testing yourself is key, and some sort of testing, should be done, if you absolutely refuse to spar.  As for the questions that you asked, which I believe were asked by someone else, in that other thread...I do the majority of that type of training, outside of the dojo.  To clarify...when I say 'outside the dojo' I'm talking about when I'm training in the backyard or garage setting, with some of the guys I train with.  IMHO though, I do feel that type of training should be done in the dojo as well.  Yes, I understand the tradition aspect...hell, I train in a traditional art, with a teacher who was born in Japan, so the idea of the RBSD type of training might be frowned upon by someone like that, but nonetheless, I still feel that it's a key component to SD.


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Then you haven't seen any of Iain Abernethy's work with Bunkai, absolutely practical work for self defence. Others do good work in this area too.
> 
> Kata is rarely good exercise and doesn't actually build character, the Bunkai on the other hand. Too many people don't actually know what kata is for and just go through the motions of following whatever their instructor shows them, it's a shame, they are missing out on so much.
> 
> Bunkai - Karate's forgotten 95% | Iain Abernethy



One of the BEST posts so far, on this thread!!!  I couldn't agree more with this!!


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## Buka (Oct 10, 2014)

Some say "Kata is the key to Karate".  I do not agree.
Some say "Kata is useless." I do not agree
Some say "Kata is a personal journey." Maybe it is, I don't know.
Some say "Kata is everything", others say "it is nothing". Gee, different opinions, who would have figured that?
Some  say there is no "Kata in real fighting styles". But I have a Judo buddy  who does two man Judo Kata and he kicks my *** every time we train. I  have many friends in traditional styles, some kick my *** and some  don't. I have many friends in non traditional styles, same thing for  them.

The last Kata I did was in the late summer of 1974. I  had done a lot of Kata up until then. Why did I stop? No reason,  really, just time, I was training in a lot of things, Kata got put on  the back burner for some reason. But, looking back with whatever wisdom  I've gained through Martial training, I wish I had kept it up. Some of  them, anyway, I liked some of them. I'm thinking that I'd be a better  Martial Artist now if I kept it up. Certainly wouldn't have hurt.

I  remember being in the South Side Gym, an old boxing gym back in the  day. I was working out with a group of guys, one of whom was shadow  boxing, staying warm, waiting for our turn in the ring, when the subject  of Kata came up. I told him, "You're doing Kata right now, you're  shadow boxing." He had never even seen a Martial Art, other than boxing.  After that, anytime he was shadow boxing or doing mirror work, and  someone talked to him, he'd say, "Later, man, I'm doing my Kata right  now." He wasn't being disrespectful, he just really liked the term. Now -  we run into each other once in a blue moon. Last time I saw him he  said, "You should see my grandson doing Kata" and he broke into shadow  boxing right there at the gas station. We both laughed. His grandson's a  blue belt in Bjj, and he boxes with grandpa on a regular basis.

I think I'm going to start doing Kata again. Who knows, maybe it will keep me off the damn computer.


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## Steve (Oct 10, 2014)

I may be misunderstanding the op.  I don't think it's anti-kata.  Rather, it's, if you are anti-sparring because it isn't "real", mustn't you also be anti sparring for the same reason?

It's a fair point, IMO, if I understand it correctly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Buka said:


> I think I'm going to start doing Kata again. Who knows, maybe it will keep me off the damn computer.


:hmm:
Sounds like a great idea but it will actually add to your computer time. First you will spend hours looking at Iain Abernethy and Masaji Taira's work then once you get the hang of it you will spend countless hours trying to explain to ignorant people, like *Hanzou*, that kata is fundamental to karate and does work in street fighting. Then you will end up with funny marks on your forehead from bashing it against hard objects when he hasn't the ability to comprehend. 

Perhaps it would be easier not to do your kata after all.


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Steve said:


> I may be misunderstanding the op.  I don't think it's anti-kata.  Rather, it's, *if you are anti-sparring because it isn't "real", mustn't you also be anti sparring for the same reason?
> *


Did you mean to write this?


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## Steve (Oct 10, 2014)

lol, I meant anti-kata for the same reasons.   It's early.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 10, 2014)

While I don't agree with the confrontational way drop bear phrased this post, I do understand where he's coming from.  I'll put it in the context of the thread it spun off of and hopefully be less confrontational about it:

Kong Soo Do claimed that sparring is a suboptimal training tool for self-defense because it does not include a host of real world considerations: de-escalation, escape & evasion, environmental factors, improvised weapons, etc, etc, etc.

Kong Soo Do claimed that kata is an effective training tool for self-defense.

Drop bear notes that kata does not include any of those real world considerations (de-escalation, escape & evasion, environmental factors, improvised weapons, etc, etc, etc.) that Kong dinged sparring for not having. Drop bear notes a certain inconsistency - how can you say training method A is not good because it lacks certain qualities but say training method B is good despite lacking those same qualities?

Drop bear may be (as several people in this thread have commented) completely ignorant of kata and its uses, but he doesn't have to know much about kata to question the inconsistency of the claims.

To take it out of the realm of martial arts - if I tell you that a Toyota Prius is a poor vehicle for getting around because it can't fly or go on water and in the next breath tell you that a bicycle is a great vehicle for getting around, you might be confused as to what I am thinking.

Now, I'm not any kind of kata expert, but I would guess the defenders of kata would say that kata does not need all those considerations (de-escalation, environmental factors, et al) to be useful for self-defense because it has a different purpose than scenario training and is just focused on conveying certain specific skills and knowledge. You can train kata to gain that knowledge and skillset, and then use scenario training to address other issues relevant to self-defense.

This, by the way, is the exact same argument I used in that other thread to argue for the value of sparring in self-defense training (see my 12:03 pm post).  Sparring doesn't necessarily have to include all those additional factors that you can find in scenario training because it is more narrowly focused on training certain specific skills and attributes in more depth.  I think Kong ended up agreeing with me on that after I explained my point multiple times in different ways.

BTW - I think we can have more productive conversations here if we can break the habit of treating everybody who disagrees with us as willfully ignorant.


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Steve said:


> lol, I meant anti-kata for the same reasons.   It's early.


OK, I thought that was probably the case. 

No, I don't think it is the same. I'm not anti sparring as such. Firstly it depends on definition. If sparring is defined like *Hanzou* defined it I think in the other thread then we all spar. If we are talking about sparring as punching and kicking without clinching like you see in sport based karate, then we don't spar. That is just a small part of sparring that I believe is not required in my training. It is essential for someone training for the ring. Whether you undertake that form of of sparring or not has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to fight on the street or in a more confined space like a pub. It is not that sparring in that way isn't real and it doesn't mean that it doesn't work on the street. In fact a lot of what you see posted is a real monkey dance scenario where the protagonists do fight that way. For me I don't need to chase someone to hit them. If they don't come to me then I am not interested in hitting them. If they do come to me they have to penetrate my defence and then there is more than a fair chance I will hit them. That is the way we train.

Now getting back to kata. I believe in the outside world only a tiny fraction of people understand kata or its value. Even here on MT where you have a lot of highly trained people only a handful are exploring its potential. People with no understanding, like *Hanzou*, bag it, ask for evidence against his biased view, then when it is produced claims what he is shown it isn't valid because in his limited world he had never seen it trained that way. I trained Japanese style karate for years before I saw the application demonstrated in a meaningful way. The result of that was me leaving what I knew, changing to the Okinawan style karate and trying diligently to understand more about the kata. Why would I do that if it wasn't real? More than that, if it wasn't what it is, I would probably be no longer training or teaching. I have many outside interests and limited time. But kata is addictive, a little like prospecting. Every time you get one little nugget you just know there has to be more.

Coming back to the OP. Is kata essential to your training? It depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to fight in the ring it has little if any benefit. If you want to use it on the street the way it is trained by probably 95% of karateka, again little if any benefit. If you want to study the kata and understand the application of the kata you have a street fighting system that is extremely effective. The application of kata *is* real. How most people train kata is not.
:asian:


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> While I don't agree with the confrontational way drop bear phrased this post, I do understand where he's coming from.  I'll put it in the context of the thread it spun off of and hopefully be less confrontational about it:
> 
> Kong Soo Do claimed that sparring is a suboptimal training tool for self-defense because it does not include a host of real world considerations: de-escalation, escape & evasion, environmental factors, improvised weapons, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


Sport sparring is methodology, kata is methodology. They are both part of complete training depending on the training. I believe Kata is not at all useful in the ring and for me sport sparring has limited value on the street. To me, scenario training is a separate animal. It should be essential training for anyone serious about self defence.

As to the part about wilfully ignorant. We can all agree to disagree. The problem I see is where someone dismisses virtually everyone else's training as 'fraudulent' or 'sub optimal' etc. and keeps ignoring what others are saying to the contrary. Someone who does that constantly *is* wilfully ignorant. IMHO of course.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Then you haven't seen any of Iain Abernethy's work with Bunkai, absolutely practical work for self defence. Others do good work in this area too.
> 
> Kata is rarely good exercise and doesn't actually build character, the Bunkai on the other hand. Too many people don't actually know what kata is for and just go through the motions of following whatever their instructor shows them, it's a shame, they are missing out on so much.
> 
> Bunkai - Karate's forgotten 95% | Iain Abernethy



On the contrary, I'm quite familiar with Mr. Abernethy's work. While its interesting to watch him construct movements out of the kata, that does nothing to change their overall effectiveness as a training tool.

Simply put, I have yet to run across Karatekas or Kung Fu stylists who actually utilize Bunkai in their training on anything beyond the demonstration level. This is perhaps why you see so many Kung Fu and Karate stylists looking like kickboxers when they fight, instead of how Abernethy looks when he's breaking down the kata, or how performers look during a kata competition.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> On the contrary, I'm quite familiar with Mr. Abernethy's work. While its interesting to watch him construct movements out of the kata, that does nothing to change their overall effectiveness as a training tool.
> 
> Simply put, I have yet to run across Karatekas or Kung Fu stylists who actually utilize Bunkai in their training on anything beyond the demonstration level. This is perhaps why you see so many Kung Fu and Karate stylists looking like kickboxers when they fight, instead of how Abernethy looks when he's breaking down the kata, or how performers look during a kata competition.



If you are familiar with Iain's work I'm surprised you think of kata the way you do, I think you may be familiar with it in the same way I'm familiar with Capoeira.
Bunkai is for self defence not competition fighting. Karate ( can't speak for Kung Fu) fighters will often look like kick boxers, which is no surprise as that's basically where 'competitive' kick boxing, not Muay Thai, came from.


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> On the contrary, I'm quite familiar with Mr. Abernethy's work. While its interesting to watch him construct movements out of the kata, that does nothing to change their overall effectiveness as a training tool.
> 
> Simply put, I have yet to run across Karatekas or Kung Fu stylists who actually utilize Bunkai in their training on anything beyond the demonstration level. This is perhaps why you see so many Kung Fu and Karate stylists looking like kickboxers when they fight, instead of how Abernethy looks when he's breaking down the kata, or how performers look during a kata competition.


Oh boy! How can you keep spouting this kind of nonsense? *You* have not come across people utilising bunkai in their training. So wha? I haven't seen people breaking concrete blocks in their training either but I know there are some that do and that it requires a certain level of skill and training. We train bunkai that way every training session as I would assume does every other school with our style of karate. I am travelling to New Zealand in two weeks to train with the guys there, specifically bunkai. This type of training had *nothing* to do with fighting in the ring. Expecting to see it in the ring is about as optimistic as finding fairies in your garden. But you already know that, don't you?


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> You are being dishonest with the members of the board that have thus far participated in this thread.  You were not asked to start this thread.  You began to derail another thread.  I suggested the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The thread is not about kata. It is about katas relevance according to your set of standards. That was always the discussion. Does kata fail when subjected to your tests?

Just seems a bit illogical.

So you wanted this thread. You have it.

So do you do kata in a car?


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> If you are familiar with Iain's work I'm surprised you think of kata the way you do, I think you may be familiar with it in the same way I'm familiar with Capoeira.


I must admit, I know nothing of Capoeira either.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The thread is not about kata. It is about katas relevance according to your set of standards. That was always the discussion. Does kata fail when subjected to your tests?
> 
> Just seems a bit illogical.
> 
> ...



I wasn't on the other thread so humour me, what do you think kata is?


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, then let's do it this way
> 
> Please explain your understanding of what kata is, and why the same arguments can be levelled at it as were levelled at sparring (for the record, they weren't arguments against sparring, they were highlighting limitations of common-term, "sports" style sparring). Every post you've made shows that you are not in possession of enough understanding to actually be in a position to discuss knowledgeably on this topic but I'll await your clarification of your understanding first. After that, I'll go through and highlight why I believe you're entirely missed the point (based on current posts and evidence).
> 
> Oh, and it's not an ad hominem post if I'm highlighting the issues in the posts themselves I didn't say anything about yourself or Hanzou other than that you're showing a real lack of knowledge in this area.



Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there.

What it isn't is something that allows_ t_*he person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Kata does not usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage.




*


----------



## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

MJS said:


> I do kata.  I think that if one is going to do kata, that they should have an understanding of exactly what they're doing, otherwise, you're doing nothing more than half assed moves.  As I've said in the other thread, I do feel that sparring/testing yourself is key, and some sort of testing, should be done, if you absolutely refuse to spar.  As for the questions that you asked, which I believe were asked by someone else, in that other thread...I do the majority of that type of training, outside of the dojo.  To clarify...when I say 'outside the dojo' I'm talking about when I'm training in the backyard or garage setting, with some of the guys I train with.  IMHO though, I do feel that type of training should be done in the dojo as well.  Yes, I understand the tradition aspect...hell, I train in a traditional art, with a teacher who was born in Japan, so the idea of the RBSD type of training might be frowned upon by someone like that, but nonetheless, I still feel that it's a key component to SD.




Yeah not kata based on its own merits. There are two preconceptions we are working with here. One training has to resemble fighting. And two in a fight you will revert to your training and fight like that.

These are important preconceptions because that is the base issue here.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Steve said:


> I may be misunderstanding the op.  I don't think it's anti-kata.  Rather, it's, if you are anti-sparring because it isn't "real", mustn't you also be anti sparring for the same reason?
> 
> It's a fair point, IMO, if I understand it correctly.
> 
> ...




Yeah that pretty much.


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The thread is not about kata. It is about katas relevance according to your set of standards. That was always the discussion. Does kata fail when subjected to your tests?
> 
> Just seems a bit illogical.
> 
> ...


Kata really has absolutely nothing to do with the set of standards listed. That makes as much sense as saying what has exploration in the Amazon got to do with Space travel. Obviously you don't do kata in a car. If that was a genuine question then I give up.

Kata by itself does nothing. It's a bit like a lock without a key. 

So let's look at the applications of kata in the context you want to discuss it. For 'spar' I will assume that it means 'utilise bunkai' in this context.


_Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?_

No, because kata is designed for one attacker at a time. However, in the case of multiple attackers it may be possible to use the bunkai sequentially.


_Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?_

Again, kata in the karate sense is empty hand. Certainly some bunkai could be used against weapons.


_Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?
_
No, because karate means empty hand. Kobudo is for training with weapons.


_Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?
_
Certainly.


_Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?
_
Certainly.


_Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?_

Not at all.


_Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?_

Yes. Don't injure your partner.


_Do you spar only on a dry surface?_

Normally but other surfaces are optional.


_Do you spar only indoors?_

No.


_Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?_

We normally don't and bunkai which teaches angle and direction may not be appropriate in those situations.



_Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?_

Yes.


_Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?_

That is not what bunkai is designed for. However attack from behind or the side is incorporated. Bunkai is not a ground fighting system.


So I think that demonstrates that unless you understand kata and what it contains, it is pretty much a nonsense to compare it to scenario based training or sport sparring. Kata is just one training methodology. For those of us that utilise it, it is far more beneficial than sport sparring and does not replace scenario training.
:asian:


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> If you are familiar with Iain's work I'm surprised you think of kata the way you do, I think you may be familiar with it in the same way I'm familiar with Capoeira.
> Bunkai is for self defence not competition fighting. Karate ( can't speak for Kung Fu) fighters will often look like kick boxers, which is no surprise as that's basically where 'competitive' kick boxing, not Muay Thai, came from.



In all my years in karate, we rarely sparred for competition purposes, we sparred for training purposes. That was the laboratory to experiment on the techniques we learned, and for developing our personal fighting style. The same applies currently in Bjj, where we spar constantly. If you're not pulling these bunkai out during sparring, I highly doubt you could pull them out during a self defense situation. How could you? You never integrated those movements into your personal fighting style.


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there.
> 
> What it isn't is something that allows_ t_*he person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Kata does not usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage.
> *


Sorry, that is purely ignorance of what kata is and what it is for. If that is what kata means to you, don't waste your time practising it and please don't even try to discuss it. It is a bit like a kindergarten kid trying to discuss the finer aspects of brain surgery with a brain surgeon.



drop bear said:


> Yeah not kata based on its own merits. There are two preconceptions we are working with here. One training has to resemble fighting. And two in a fight you will revert to your training and fight like that.
> 
> These are important preconceptions because that is the base issue here.


What is kata based on it's merits? Kata by itself is like a box with a gun inside. Until you open the box and take out the weapon it isn't much use. If you train bunkai, then you fight as you train.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Sorry, that is purely ignorance of what kata is and what it is for. If that is what kata means to you, don't waste your time practising it and please don't even try to discuss it. It is a bit like a kindergarten kid trying to discuss the finer aspects of brain surgery with a brain surgeon.
> 
> What is kata based on it's merits? Kata by itself is like a box with a gun inside. Until you open the box and take out the weapon it isn't much use. If you train bunkai, then you fight as you train.
> :asian:




I really don't think you understand my posts. You seem to be arguing a point I am not making.


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> In all my years in karate, we rarely sparred for competition purposes, we sparred for training purposes. That was the laboratory to experiment on the techniques we learned, and for developing our personal fighting style. The same applies currently in Bjj, where we spar constantly. If you're not pulling these bunkai out during sparring, I highly doubt you could pull them out during a self defense situation. How could you? You never integrated those movements into your personal fighting style.


And the fact that in another thread you said how you had thrown away all you karate training in favour of BJJ just about sums it up. You used your sparring in you junior years of Shotokan to experiment with your techniques and it was ineffective compared to what you do now. Bunkai is 'sparring' in the same sense that your training is 'sparring'. You never trained the bunkai so why do you keep making assertions about it when you don't have any knowledge of it?


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I really don't think you understand my posts. You seem to be arguing a point I am not making.


Really? Then perhaps you could explain the point again.


----------



## Argus (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism...



Actually, I can 

I'm not going to claim that sparring can't be beneficial, because it absolutely can. But too much of it, especially if you're sparring for the purpose of competing in tournaments, can be very detrimental and breed a lot of misconceptions and bad habits.

First thing to realize is that tournaments, especially in the very sportive form found in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, condition fighters to adopt a very, very specific method.

For example, I went to a Karate school for a short time. And it was actually a pretty good school, with skilled practitioners and a good instructor. But they suffered from a very tournament-centric mentality in their sparring. When I sparred, I was told: No attacking the face directly, no low kicks, no grabbing, no touching an opponent's back, no touching an opponent's neck, etc. etc. Now, everyone of those things are the bread and butter of my past training -- not because they're what we aim to do, but just because of the range we fight, the lines of attack we use, etc.

Moreover, they had some very tournament-oriented habits, and were used to dealing only with very cautious opponents who kept their distance. They practiced leaning far back to avoid kicks and punches, and retracting their hands without worry of being followed in. My first time sparring, I sparred against a senior student; I followed his punch in, and as I did, he leaned back, and I gently placed my fist on his chest, causing him to fall over. Sparring with other students, I also found many of the lines of attack I was required to use to be awkward and limit how I could intercept or make contact with my opponent. And had to keep correcting my habits of wanting to control someone's hand or elbow.

This kind of practice, in my opinion, teaches students that it's safe to do all kinds of things that are in fact pretty dangerous.

I've always wondered why Karate guys don't do more "touching hands" in the way that you see in Chinese Martial Arts. I feel like this is a very good way to become well-rounded and understand how to apply what you learn in forms in an unscripted way, yet I've never seen it done outside of TCMA and FMA. You don't always have to be throwing kicks and punches at full speed -- you can practice freely touching hands and using whatever techniques you want in a safe and controlled manner, with the aim of learning more so than competing.


----------



## MJS (Oct 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there.
> What it isn't is something that allows_ t_*he person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Kata does not usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage.*


*






*On the flip side, how many MMA/BJJ gyms do you see working those things?  Hey, perhaps they are out there, I really don't know.  What I do know, is that many of the gyms that're in my area, are not teaching that.  Sure, they may offer a separate program that does address those things, but no, I've yet to see a MMA gym in my area that teaches weapon use, defense, de-escalation, etc, etc.  



[/QUOTE]



drop bear said:


> Yeah not kata based on its own merits. There are two preconceptions we are working with here. One training has to resemble fighting. And two in a fight you will revert to your training and fight like that.
> 
> These are important preconceptions because that is the base issue here.



Valid points.  Speaking only for myself, while I do kata, I'm not as into it as other area.  In other words, you have guys like Ian, that'll really, really break down every move, come up with fighting application, etc.  No, I've never met or trained with the man.  I do kata, because it's a part of the arts that I do.  I do have an understanding of the moves in the kata that I do.  However, I do not use kata for fighting purposes, so no, I most likely, will not revert back to anything, other than what I mainly focus on.


----------



## MJS (Oct 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> _Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?_
> 
> Again, kata in the karate sense is empty hand. Certainly some bunkai could be used against weapons.



Interestingly enough, the empty hand kata, or anyos, as they're called in Arnis, deal with both empty and armed opponents. 

I'm not disagreeing with your post here, I'm just pointing out more fact to what you already said.


----------



## mcmoon (Oct 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Really? Then perhaps you could explain the point again.




I will try and help out here.  In another thread KSD stated that sparring was detrimental to real self defense because of the things drop bear quoted but KSD was pro kata as a training tool.  Drop bear is saying that is illogical that you can discount one thing using your own predefined guidelines and be for another that goes against those same guidelines.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> In all my years in karate, we rarely sparred for competition purposes, we sparred for training purposes. That was the laboratory to experiment on the techniques we learned, and for developing our personal fighting style. The same applies currently in Bjj, where we spar constantly. If you're not pulling these bunkai out during sparring, I highly doubt you could pull them out during a self defense situation. How could you? You never integrated those movements into your personal fighting style.




What you do in your training is not what I do in mine, those movements are integrated into my personal fighting style, why wouldn't they be?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Really? Then perhaps you could explain the point again.



If drop bear doesn't object, I'll reiterate my interpretation of what he was getting at. I can see how his point could be missed by anyone who wasn't following the other thread in its entirety.

I don't believe this thread was intended as a diss on kata in any way.

It's fine to practice kata for whatever benefits you feel it brings for self-defense.

It's fine to practice sparring for whatever benefits you feel it brings for self-defense.

It's fine to prefer kata to sparring because you value the specific benefits of the one over the other. (I might disagree with you, but there's nothing logically inconsistent about your position.)

It's seemingly contradictory to say "sparring is not good for self-defense training because it lacks elements A, B, C, D & E, but kata is just fine for self-defense training even though it lacks elements A, B, C, D & E."  This is the exact claim that Kong made in the other thread, and it is this claim which drop bear is responding to.

Because I have a lot of respect for Kong, I'm racking my brain to come up with an explanation for how this position can not be self-contradictory. The best I've been able to come up with is something like this: _"The positive values of sparring for self-defense training are (1, 2, 3). These values would be greatly enhanced by including A, B, C, D & E, which would transform it into scenario training. Therefore, sparring is a suboptimal self-defense training tool, at least compared to scenario training. In contrast, the positive values of kata for self-defense training are (4, 5, 6). These particular values are not enhanced by including A, B, C, D & E because (insert explanation here). Therefore kata is valuable as a training method with purposes distinct from scenario training while sparring is better replaced by scenario training."

_Kong would have to fill in details 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and *insert explanation here*, but this would be a non-self-contradictory argument that would be consistent with his statements in the other thread.  I'll be interested to see if he's willing to fill in those details or offer some other non-inconsistent argument.


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Argus said:


> I've always wondered why Karate guys don't do more "touching hands" in the way that you see in Chinese Martial Arts. I feel like this is a very good way to become well-rounded and understand how to apply what you learn in forms in an unscripted way, yet I've never seen it done outside of TCMA and FMA. You don't always have to be throwing kicks and punches at full speed -- you can practice freely touching hands and using whatever techniques you want in a safe and controlled manner, with the aim of learning more so than competing.


We do it all the time. It is the basis of our training to apply locks and holds, to work against weapons and to do takedowns. We use it as a starting point for bunkai and for our form of sparring. It is traditional in Okinawa often seen as Kakie. It stands to reason that if karate developed from the CMAs then it must have included the same training at some point.
:asian:


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2014)

mcmoon said:


> I will try and help out here.  In another thread KSD stated that sparring was detrimental to real self defense because of the things drop bear quoted but KSD was pro kata as a training tool.  Drop bear is saying that is illogical that you can discount one thing using your own predefined guidelines and be for another that goes against those same guidelines.



Let me sort his out for you, KSD stated _he thought_ that sparring........... I'm sure he will explain for himself why he thinks that but to assume everyone thinks the same in anything let alone martial arts is to be on a slippery slope. It sounds to me that this would have been better discussed by PM or a more understandable question posed for general discussion.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 10, 2014)

Argus said:


> Actually, I can
> 
> I'm not going to claim that sparring can't be beneficial, because it absolutely can. But too much of it, especially if you're sparring for the purpose of competing in tournaments, can be very detrimental and breed a lot of misconceptions and bad habits.
> 
> ...



I agree with your observations, but that's not an argument against sparring. It's an argument against sparring in a stupid way that builds terrible habits. At my school, punches to the face, low kicks, grabbing, contact with the back and neck, close range aggressive attacks, controlling hands & elbows, etc are all a normal part of the process.


----------



## mcmoon (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Let me sort his out for you, KSD stated _he thought_ that sparring........... I'm sure he will explain for himself why he thinks that but to assume everyone thinks the same in anything let alone martial arts is to be on a slippery slope. It sounds to me that this would have been better discussed by PM or a more understandable question posed for general discussion.



Drop Bear wasn't trying to bash kata(He may have worded it wrong) but to point out the inconsistencies in KSD's arguement.  KSD said something about starting a new thread if he felt like discussing that point as to not derail the previous thread.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2014)

mcmoon said:


> Drop Bear wasn't trying to bash kata(He may have worded it wrong) but to point out the inconsistencies in KSD's arguement.  KSD said something about starting a new thread if he felt like discussing that point as to not derail the previous thread.



So where did I say he was trying to bash kata?  I was pointing out to you that what you said was incorrect, KSD stated what he thought not what the rest of us does. 
As I said better sorted out by PM or a thread with an understandable title.


----------



## mcmoon (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> So where did I say he was trying to bash kata?  I was pointing out to you that what you said was incorrect, KSD stated what he thought not what the rest of us does.
> As I said better sorted out by PM or a thread with an understandable title.



Oh ok got it, misread what you wrote.  May have been better with another title and really unless everyone was following the other thread I can understand how it would be misinterpreted.  The reason it wasn't probably done through PM is because KSD mentioned starting a new thread and like me and a few others that were in the other thread would like to know his reasoning as well.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> What you do in your training is not what I do in mine, those movements are integrated into my personal fighting style, why wouldn't they be?



Really? Could you link me to your school's website, or provide a video where you guys are implementing bunkai in your sparring? I would very much like to see this in action.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Really? Could you link me to your school's website, or provide a video where you guys are implementing bunkai in your sparring? I would very much like to see this in action.



Good grief it's not difficult! I think you imagine we do the movements exactly as they are done in a kata, movement by movement in the exact order they come. Actually if you are aware of Iain's work you should know exactly what we do. Do you think that the movements from a kata are different somehow from movements used in sparring, you don't elbow, knee, kick, punch? On Iain's seminars he even shows, because he knows I also do MMA, movements that are useful for MMA and yes they work because the kata is basically an aide memoire of movements that can be made, ways to use those movements etc.
A boxing instructor will use a very simple kata to teach beginners, it will be something like... jab, cross, uppercut, hook, he will have the students go over them in that order for a few times to make sure they know how to do the movement correctly and they remember them. Now, do they fight with the movements in that order, do they always use them in that order, do they not use them when sparring? Of course they use them in sparring and of course they use them in a different order sometimes they may miss one, they mix them up, come from different angles when they've learned them. That's what kata is, the bunkai is the unlocking of the movements so you have an arsenal of movements you can use, it will teach you the best way and the best time to use them as well so of course you use it in sparring, it's all the techniques of karate so why wouldn't you.


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Really? Could you link me to your school's website, or provide a video where you guys are implementing bunkai in your sparring? I would very much like to see this in action.


Why should *Tez* bother. You asked me to do the same. I posted it and  you just said that that wasn't the way the schools you had seen trained. And remember, the bunkai isn't implemented in your sparring. It is your sparring. You don't use it all the time. It depends on the situation.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Good grief it's not difficult! I think you imagine we do the movements exactly as they are done in a kata, movement by movement in the exact order they come. Actually if you are aware of Iain's work you should know exactly what we do. Do you think that the movements from a kata are different somehow from movements used in sparring, you don't elbow, knee, kick, punch? On Iain's seminars he even shows, because he knows I also do MMA, movements that are useful for MMA and yes they work because the kata is basically an aide memoire of movements that can be made, ways to use those movements etc.
> A boxing instructor will use a very simple kata to teach beginners, it will be something like... jab, cross, uppercut, hook, he will have the students go over them in that order for a few times to make sure they know how to do the movement correctly and they remember them. Now, do they fight with the movements in that order, do they always use them in that order, do they not use them when sparring? Of course they use them in sparring and of course they use them in a different order sometimes they may miss one, they mix them up, come from different angles when they've learned them. That's what kata is, the bunkai is the unlocking of the movements so you have an arsenal of movements you can use, it will teach you the best way and the best time to use them as well so of course you use it in sparring, it's all the techniques of karate so why wouldn't you.



It's not about fighting in order particular order. It's about seeing stuff like this;






or this;






In karate sparring that looks typically like this;






or this;






If the kata truly did what you claim, karatekas would look like their kata while fighting (or at least similar to Abernethy's demos). 

Except they don't. They resemble kickboxers with their hands lowered.

In short, the evidence doesn't support your claims.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Why should *Tez* bother. You asked me to do the same. I posted it and  you just said that that wasn't the way the schools you had seen trained. And remember, the bunkai isn't implemented in your sparring. It is your sparring. You don't use it all the time. It depends on the situation.



You showed me a seminar with a sensei drilling techniques into a compliant partner.

That ain't sparring.


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> It's not about fighting in order particular order. It's about seeing stuff like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You show Iain teaching bunkai. Now if my memory serves me right his style is Wado Ryu which includes jujutsu. Then you post video of Shotokan which doesn't. You post video of material that is not designed to be used in the ting then show people who have never trained it in their life and ask why they don't fight like you see in the bunkai. And again, you are ignorant to the difference between kata and bunkai.


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> You showed me a seminar with a sensei drilling techniques into a compliant partner.
> 
> That ain't sparring.


Yes it is the training part just the same as you would teach someone to roll. Once you build up the speed and intensity it certainly is sparring, and you have taken it out of context. Taira normally demonstrates the bunkai in its entirety. Obviously a fight doesn't proceed like that. But again, I explained it in detail once before. You didn't listen then. Why would you listen now? You are a bigot.


----------



## Buka (Oct 10, 2014)

Gichin Funakoshi (some Karate guy) said, "Practicing a Kata is one thing, engaging         in a real fight is another."

I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what he meant. And don't even think about my crack "some karate guy", we all know it was an adlib.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> You show Iain teaching bunkai. Now if my memory serves me right his style is Wado Ryu which includes jujutsu. Then you post video of Shotokan which doesn't. You post video of material that is not designed to be used in the ting then show people who have never trained it in their life and ask why they don't fight like you see in the bunkai. And again, you are ignorant to the difference between kata and bunkai.



One of those vids shows the Bunkai for Bassai Dai. Bassai Dai is a kata within Shotokan karate as well.

I'm pretty sure Abernathy has books on the Heian katas as well.

Edit: Yep;

http://www.iainabernethy.com/Pinan_Heian_Series.pdf


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> One of those vids shows the Bunkai for Bassai Dai. Bassai Dai is a kata within Shotokan karate as well.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Abernathy has books on the Heian katas as well.
> 
> ...


But they normally don't teach them within Shotokan! If you don't use the kata as a fighting system you are never going to use it to fight. Oh, and Iain has done work on the Goju kata as well. So what? You are fixated on proving nothing else but your precious BJJ has any use. 

I think Chris got it right Horatio!


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> But they normally don't teach them within Shotokan! If you don't use the kata as a fighting system you are never going to use it to fight. Oh, and Iain has done work on the Goju kata as well. So what?



Well here is Wado Ryu sparring;






I'm not seeing much of a difference...



> You are fixated on proving nothing else but your precious BJJ has any use.



I'm sorry you believe that.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> So where did I say he was trying to bash kata?  I was pointing out to you that what you said was incorrect, KSD stated what he thought not what the rest of us does.
> As I said better sorted out by PM or a thread with an understandable title.



Obviously a harder concept to covey than I thought. I am not Shakespeare. It happens. Otherwise we are all out here testing a theory and having a little fun. 

I don't think a pm would have solved much.



(I dont think Kong so do likes me)


----------



## drop bear (Oct 10, 2014)

Argus said:


> Actually, I can
> 
> I'm not going to claim that sparring can't be beneficial, because it absolutely can. But too much of it, especially if you're sparring for the purpose of competing in tournaments, can be very detrimental and breed a lot of misconceptions and bad habits.
> 
> ...



OK I do mma. I spar bjj, judo, boxing ,kickboxing,wrestling and so on. None of those arts apply all the tools I would use in a fight or even in mma.

But within those arts are concepts that help my fighting and my mma.

Which is kind of the kata is worthwhile argument.


----------



## K-man (Oct 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Well here is Wado Ryu sparring;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So tell me the context. Looked like competition to me. Not one attempt to clinch and grapple.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> So tell me the context. Looked like competition to me. Not one attempt to clinch and grapple.



Actually there was at the 0.50 mark. It was just sloppily applied, and failed miserably.


----------



## MJS (Oct 11, 2014)

Of course, it could be that sparring and SD are 2 different things.  Yes, I know where this is going, as it's been said before....what you see someone in a BJj class doing, is exactly what they'll do when they compete.  Oddly enough, when you see a boxer hitting the pads, you see a preset pattern.  He's drilling a specific set of punches.  Yet when he's in the ring, he's not throwing the same pattern.  Sure, he's throwing the same punches, but he's throwing them according to what his opponent is doing.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 11, 2014)

MJS said:


> Of course, it could be that sparring and SD are 2 different things.  Yes, I know where this is going, as it's been said before....what you see someone in a BJj class doing, is exactly what they'll do when they compete.  Oddly enough, when you see a boxer hitting the pads, you see a preset pattern.  He's drilling a specific set of punches.  Yet when he's in the ring, he's not throwing the same pattern.  Sure, he's throwing the same punches, but he's throwing them according to what his opponent is doing.




Boxing noobs tend to have a similar complaint that they can work fine on the pads but have trouble sparring. So there seems to be a skill gap somewhere there.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

The problem with showing videos as 'evidence' is that what you are showing actually isn't evidence. Post up a video saying this is Wado sparring and what you have is two people sparring as _they_ do it. It doesn't mean they are the best at Wado, it could be a Wado sport derivative, it could be two guys who are very poor at sparring, it could be a demo type thing at a grading. It's _not_ proof of 'Wado Ryu' sparring, it's proof of two guys sparring not very seriously. 
When you see Iain demonstrating movements that's exactly what you see him doing, nothing more, nothing less, have you seen him sparring? have you been to any of his seminars? show me any instructor that doesn't demonstrate. Kata bunkai is mainly for self defence but there are good elements in it that you can easily put into sparring. 
People new to boxing and martial arts have trouble sparring for a number of reasons mostly though because someone is punching them back which the bags don't often do.   
Anyway, why does it always have to be '_my way or you are wrong'? _The_ 'I don't like/understand kata so it must be useless' _argument is an old and tired. Just train how you like to train and leave the rest of us out of the ego trip. Oh and Bassai in Shotokan is different from Bassai in Wado. I'm Wado and TSD (where it's different again) as well as MMA.
I accept people train differently from me, it doesn't make me right and them wrong, it makes it different training. Telling people they don't do what they _are_ doing is just weird .....and rude. Don't like kata? Fine don't do it. End of.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

This is MMA fighting.
Worst MMA fighter ever Top 5 hilarious more on www.boxen-ratingen.de - YouTube


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So do you do kata in a car?



Not in a car but I have done it sitting in a chair in a limited fashion.

Do you do double leg take downs in a car?
Do you pull guard in a car?
Do you do flying kicks in a car?


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> What it isn't is something that allows_ t_*he person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Kata does not usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage.
> *



Neither is shadow sparring/shadow boxing, pad work or a multitude of other training methods.


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## drop bear (Oct 11, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Neither is shadow sparring/shadow boxing, pad work or a multitude of other training methods.



You know you are right. That whole concept sound a little flawed.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Not in a car but I have done it sitting in a chair in a limited fashion.
> 
> Do you do double leg take downs in a car?
> Do you pull guard in a car?
> Do you do flying kicks in a car?



Although best _not_ done while driving, visualisation is a very good tool you can use when not able to train physically, going through techniques in the mind can help tremendously.
Visualization Techniques for Athletes


----------



## K-man (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Although best _not_ done while driving, visualisation is a very good tool you can use when not able to train physically, going through techniques in the mind can help tremendously.
> Visualization Techniques for Athletes


Deja vu. I was thinking the same a few days back when someone was asking about solo training. Meant to go back and post. I used visualisation training as a gymnast in another life. It is a very valuable tool. 
:asian:


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Although best _not_ done while driving, visualisation is a very good tool you can use when not able to train physically, going through techniques in the mind can help tremendously.
> Visualization Techniques for Athletes



Driving in peak hour traffic is a bit like sparring.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Driving in peak hour traffic is a bit like sparring.



I'm lucky, I live in the countryside, the worst we have is sheep and horses.


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## MJS (Oct 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Boxing noobs tend to have a similar complaint that they can work fine on the pads but have trouble sparring. So there seems to be a skill gap somewhere there.



Well, sure...after all, the pads aren't hitting you back.   My point was that kata, is pre-arranged, just like focus mitt drills.  When it comes time for SD or the boxing/sparring match, there's nothing pre-arranged about it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> The problem with showing videos as 'evidence' is that what you are showing actually isn't evidence. Post up a video saying this is Wado sparring and what you have is two people sparring as _they_ do it. It doesn't mean they are the best at Wado, it could be a Wado sport derivative, it could be two guys who are very poor at sparring, it could be a demo type thing at a grading. It's _not_ proof of 'Wado Ryu' sparring, it's proof of two guys sparring not very seriously.




Of course, but when every Wado school and. Karate school who puts up sparring videos fight in a similar fashion despite geographic barriers, style differences, and distances, its fair to begin to make conclusions based on the evidence at hand. Especially if there is no counter evidence available.

I could post 5 different Wado schools from around the world, they're all fighting like those two guys in that video. If you wish for me to post up the remaining 4, just ask.



> When you see Iain demonstrating movements that's exactly what you see him doing, nothing more, nothing less, have you seen him sparring? have you been to any of his seminars? show me any instructor that doesn't demonstrate. Kata bunkai is mainly for self defence but there are good elements in it that you can easily put into sparring.



The issue is not that Abernethy demonstrates these techniques on compliant partners, the issue is that none of this Bunkai is appearing in Karate sparring. This indicates that Karate exponents either refuse to break down the kata as Abernethy demonstrates, or that Kata training alone doesn't provide the tools to break it down in that fashion.

Btw, this isn't only a problem in Karate, it's an issue in all classical styles that utilize kata as a main training device.



> People new to boxing and martial arts have trouble sparring for a number of reasons mostly though because someone is punching them back which the bags don't often do.
> Anyway, why does it always have to be '_my way or you are wrong'? _The_ 'I don't like/understand kata so it must be useless' _argument is an old and tired. Just train how you like to train and leave the rest of us out of the ego trip.



Again, I'm simply asking for your evidence to the contrary. I have my experiences in Karate and it's pretty similar to the videos I've posted. My peers in  Shotokan fought like all of those Karatekas in those videos. You and K-man are saying that somewhere out there, Karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kick boxers. I simply would like to see it to believe it. I don't think that's too much to ask.



> I accept people train differently from me, it doesn't make me right and them wrong, it makes it different training. Telling people they don't do what they _are_ doing is just weird .....and rude. Don't like kata? Fine don't do it. End of.



I also accept that people train differently than me. However, if we're having a *discussion* and you're saying that I'm wrong, I would like to see something beyond anedoctal evidence.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 11, 2014)

Well, this has gone on a bit since yesterday&#8230; Drop Bear, thanks for answering your take on kata&#8230; I'll come back tomorrow and give a proper response to that, your OP, and a range of other things mentioned in the thread.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Of course, but when every Wado school and. Karate school who puts up sparring videos fight in a similar fashion despite geographic barriers, style differences, and distances, its fair to begin to make conclusions based on the evidence at hand. Especially if there is no counter evidence available.
> 
> I could post 5 different Wado schools from around the world, they're all fighting like those two guys in that video. If you wish for me to post up the remaining 4, just ask.
> 
> ...



And I'd like to see something other than videos, we can all find videos of things to prove our points, doesn't make it correct though. My instructors like many think posting up videos is beyond naff, why are people doing it? To show off, it's like the corrent fad of selfies, only the vain, the self obsessed and the silly post selfies, the rest of us get on with life and training. 
The thing is we don't actually care whether you think we are wrong or not, we do what we do and are more than happy with it, we learn, we grow. It is you who seem intent on proving that traditional styles 'don't work' fine, so you can't make them work, others can.
You also don't comprehend what I am saying, you have understood it as _'karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kickboxers'_, you haven't understood have you, no one has said they fight like their katas, no one at all. Kata and Bunkai is for self defence BUT there are movements that can be and are utilised for sparring, kata isn't all wrist locks etc, there's kicks, punches, elbows, knees used so are you telling me you have never seen those movements used? Look at the origins of kick boxing not Muay Thai but kick boxing, they are fighting like karatekas, not surprising considering kick boxing's origins. I also don't think you have picked up what katas are, they are a repository of techniques and movements, a thesaurus if you like, people don't 'fight like katas' they use techniques and movements from them, perhaps if you don't know the kata you won't know that it is contained in one. 



I take it then that your Shotokan wasn't full contact like my Wado was?


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> And I'd like to see something other than videos, we can all find videos of things to prove our points, doesn't make it correct though. My instructors like many think posting up videos is beyond naff, why are people doing it? To show off, it's like the corrent fad of selfies, only the vain, the self obsessed and the silly post selfies, the rest of us get on with life and training.
> The thing is we don't actually care whether you think we are wrong or not, we do what we do and are more than happy with it, we learn, we grow. It is you who seem intent on proving that traditional styles 'don't work' fine, so you can't make them work, others can.



Why are you taking this so personally? I'm simply asking you to provide evidence that you guys utilize kata when you're sparring.



> You also don't comprehend what I am saying, you have understood it as _'karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kickboxers'_, you haven't understood have you, no one has said they fight like their katas, no one at all. Kata and Bunkai is for self defence BUT there are movements that can be and are utilised for sparring, kata isn't all wrist locks etc, there's kicks, punches, elbows, knees used so are you telling me you have never seen those movements used? Look at the origins of kick boxing not Muay Thai but kick boxing, they are fighting like karatekas, not surprising considering kick boxing's origins. I also don't think you have picked up what katas are, they are a repository of techniques and movements, a thesaurus if you like, people don't 'fight like katas' they use techniques and movements from them, perhaps if you don't know the kata you won't know that it is contained in one.



I understand that. My point (again) is that no one is fighting like Abernethy or like the old sensei that K-man posted up. ALL of them are fighting like kickboxers with their hands to the side while bouncing up and down. No one is doing wrist locks, throws, or the hand techniques showcased by Abernethy or others. You said that your school does it, so I'm just asking for some proof.



> I take it then that your Shotokan wasn't full contact like my Wado was?



I suppose not. However, given that every Wado school I've seen fights like my old Shotokan school did, I don't think any Wado school is quite like yours.

Too bad we can't see it in action.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Why are you taking this so personally? I'm simply asking you to provide evidence that you guys utilize kata when you're sparring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dear boy, I'm not taking it at all personally, don't project your feelings onto me, I'm more than amused by your persistence. I rather like the idea that you have seen every Wado Ryu place in the world! Impressive. Here we tend not to have 'schools' we usually have martial arts clubs, not for profit organisations. martial arts I've been told many times is different in America. 
Again you have shown you don't understand what Iain or the 'old guy' is doing, if you expect them to fight like that you will wait a long time. Are you deliberately being obtuse I wonder or Are you trying to bait me into showing a video that I know you will pull apart because firstly it isn't BJJ, I wonder what you say if I posted the BJJ we do :boing2: It isn't going to happen because while you refuse to think about what kata is, what it's for and the history of kickboxing it's totally pointless. 
Oh and if I ever did take anything on MT personally you'd know about it for sure :lfao:


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Dear boy, I'm not taking it at all personally, don't project your feelings onto me, I'm more than amused by your persistence. I rather like the idea that you have seen every Wado Ryu place in the world! Impressive.



I never said I did. I said that every Wado place I've seen (and majority of Karate for that matter) spar in a similar fashion. You say that's not the case, I'm just asking you to provide proof of it. That's all.



> Here we tend not to have 'schools' we usually have martial arts clubs, not for profit organisations. martial arts I've been told many times is different in America.
> Again you have shown you don't understand what Iain or the 'old guy' is doing, if you expect them to fight like that you will wait a long time. Are you deliberately being obtuse I wonder or Are you trying to bait me into showing a video that I know you will pull apart because firstly it isn't BJJ,



Why would you assume that I don't understand what Iain or Tairai (sp?) is doing? I know exactly what they're doing, I saw it for years in Karate. My issue with those *demonstrations* is that they don't reflect the actual fighting demonstrated within Karate which is *sparring*. A karateka is going to fight like they spar because that is their more natural fighting state.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I never said I did. I said that every Wado place I've seen (and majority of Karate for that matter) spar in a similar fashion. You say that's not the case, I'm just asking you to provide proof of it. That's all.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you assume that I don't understand what Iain or Tairai (sp?) is doing? I know exactly what they're doing, I saw it for years in Karate. My issue with those *demonstrations* is that they don't reflect the actual fighting demonstrated within Karate which is *sparring*. A karateka is going to fight like they spar because that is their more natural fighting state.



If you say so dear.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

The history of kick boxing...........and why karate fights look like it or kick boxing looks like karate lol.

RAF Martial Arts Association - Freestyle Kickboxing

Now, I do karate and MMA so how do I fight? Iain Abernethy is a very good Judoka as well, have you seen him fight or even spar, how do you know how he fights.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> The history of kick boxing...........and why karate fights look like it or kick boxing looks like karate lol.
> 
> RAF Martial Arts Association - Freestyle Kickboxing
> 
> Now, I do karate and MMA so how do I fight? Iain Abernethy is a very good Judoka as well, have you seen him fight or even spar, how do you know how he fights.



The history of kickboxing doesn't explain why karatekas aren't using Bunkai or any of their kata applications while sparring.

As for Abernethy, I appreciate his scholarship, but until I actually see someone fighting with kata Bunkai (including him), I'll view what he does as nothing more than some cool demo work.

Everything looks good in demonstrations.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 11, 2014)

Not going to post a video for anyone but I will say that my students are required to take a kata and use its moves while sparing in the order of the kata. This gives them a better understanding of the form and how and why the moves work.

as to what a kata is I will only quote Shoshin Nagamine ( if you do not know who he was/is goggle him ):
" Kata can be described as a  systematically organized series of defensive and offensive techniques preformed in a sequence against one or more imaginary opponents, and given a symmetrical, linear pattern".

The techniques within a kata can be adapted to combat the only thing required to do so is the willingness to study long enough to understand the form and to apply the techniques when the opportunity arrives.  

As for people all fighting the same way .well.. perhaps they are fighting the  way their system teaches.....some are fluid , some are more static, some use internal strength, some use raw power..........some know how to translate what they are shown to many environments, some do not


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> The history of kickboxing doesn't explain why karatekas aren't using Bunkai or any of their kata applications while sparring.
> 
> As for Abernethy, I appreciate his scholarship, but until I actually see someone fighting with kata Bunkai (including him), I'll view what he does as nothing more than some cool demo work.
> 
> Everything looks good in demonstrations.



Wow, you aren't getting this are you. Bunkai is not a Bo, it's not a katana, you don't fight with kata Bunkai lol. You do see movements from Bunkai all the time. Think of kata as a picture book, on every page is a movement or technique, it's a thick book lots of pages. Underneath are written (some of, you have to do some work yourself) the uses for these movements, that's Bunkai. you know like your car or motor bike manual. 

Take a very simple movement from a kata, a downward or upwards block then a straight punch to the body. What's the Bunkai for that, I can think of quite a few uses for that in various situation including in sparring, can't you? Haven't you seen people block and punch in sparring? 

In a Wado kata there's a movement that's a very nice figure four arm bar, in another there's a cross choke.  In yet another there's a movement for disengagement that's leads to a knee strike, you can see that used a lot. 
What are you looking for, some sort of magic trick? Kata and Bunkai are straight forward, no nonsense moves used for self defence with many of the moves you will see in sparring. There isn't a different type of punch used in sparring from that used in self defence. You want to evade being kicked and punched in sparring every bit as much as you do in self defence, no one wants to be KOd.

Everything you see people do when sparring is in kata, every move is contained in a kata. Every kick, punch, strike, elbow, knee even head butts are in kata.   Bunkai gives you more options, more weapons to use. Use or don't use. 

What you see in Iain's videos are demonstrations of techniques, it's all you can get if you don't train with him or go on his seminars, how can it be otherwise. The idea too is that you think for yourself, work out the Bunkai for yourself, see what works for you. It's not a one way process where you watch a video then you practice, it's a brain exercise as well. See movements in a kata and work out what you can do with them, there's small movements as well as the 'big' self defence ones, a way of standing perhaps to give you better balance. Could be anything that gives you that 'ah so that's how it works' moment. Like most things the more Y_OU _work at it the better it gets, expecting everything to be laid out for you is not the way to go.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Fighting Motives: A Study in Saifa ? Part 1 | FIGHTLAND


----------



## K-man (Oct 11, 2014)

MJS said:


> Well, sure...after all, the pads aren't hitting you back.   My point was that kata, is pre-arranged, just like focus mitt drills.  When it comes time for SD or the boxing/sparring match, there's nothing pre-arranged about it.


The kata is prearranged but the bunkai isn't. It is what we call predictive response. Because it involves holding, the response of the attacker can be predicted. For example, if I am controlling your left arm and I strike say backfist to your head with my right, you either get hit or you protect with your right arm. If my strike is effective end of scenario. If you block then I switch control to your right arm and hit you with the left. We can train bunkai with anybody because uke's response is just what anyone would do. It is not choreographed. Bunkai doesn't work in the boxing/sparring situation because you can't control the response, another reason why *Hanzou* will never find recognisable aspects of kata in his sparring videos. We used to have pre-arranged drills but honesty, they were pretty useless and I took them out of the syllabus.
:asian:


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Wow, you aren't getting this are you. Bunkai is not a Bo, it's not a katana, you don't fight with kata Bunkai lol. You do see movements from Bunkai all the time. Think of kata as a picture book, on every page is a movement or technique, it's a thick book lots of pages. Underneath are written (some of, you have to do some work yourself) the uses for these movements, that's Bunkai. you know like your car or motor bike manual.
> 
> Take a very simple movement from a kata, a downward or upwards block then a straight punch to the body. What's the Bunkai for that, I can think of quite a few uses for that in various situation including in sparring, can't you? Haven't you seen people block and punch in sparring?




Please point out the downward or upper blocks followed by straight punch (or any kata sequence) in the following Wado Ryu sparring videos;





















Four different Wado organizations all fighting in a similar manner, all advanced and even instructor level practitioners, and none of them fighting in a fashion that resembles their kata at all.

So if I met these practitioners in a dark alley, do you think they'd fight like the way they do above and defeat me, or would they suddenly bust out into some traditional Karate kata movements and defeat me?

My money's on the former.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> Bunkai doesn't work in the boxing/sparring situation because you can't control the response, another reason why *Hanzou* will never find recognisable aspects of kata in his sparring videos. We used to have pre-arranged drills but honesty, they were pretty useless and I took them out of the syllabus.



LoL! Now I've heard everything. :lfao:


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Oh dear, oh dear, you really don't get this do you. :lfao:

Let me see, I can see kicks, punches and ever so many other techniques all of which you will see in a kata. Never seen a front kick in a kata? Gosh.
I think actually you don't mean kata at all, I think you are talking about Kihons.


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## K-man (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Of course, but when every Wado school and. Karate school who puts up sparring videos fight in a similar fashion despite geographic barriers, style differences, and distances, its fair to begin to make conclusions based on the evidence at hand. Especially if there is no counter evidence available.


Did you ever consider that most MMA fighters fight a similar way? They fight that way because there is a rule set. Every video you have posted is sport style karate sparring. Did you ever consider that the rule set might be similar? Karateka from different styles fight in the same competition. Did it ever pass through your closed mind that karateka who don't spar in the sporting sense might fight a different way? 



Hanzou said:


> The issue is not that Abernethy demonstrates these techniques on compliant partners, the issue is that none of this Bunkai is appearing in Karate sparring. This indicates that Karate exponents either refuse to break down the kata as Abernethy demonstrates, or that Kata training alone doesn't provide the tools to break it down in that fashion.
> 
> Btw, this isn't only a problem in Karate, it's an issue in all classical styles that utilize kata as a main training device.


Firstly, very few karate schools would claim that kata is their main training device. I will put my hand up and say that, for us, that is our major point of difference.

However, let's look at your ludicrous statement that Iain demonstrates his techniques on compliant partners. Since video I your only ruler as to what is real and what is not, perhaps you could post a video of any BJJ demonstration where the person is demonstrating his technique on a noncompliant partner, that is someone really trying to harm him. Next piece of nonsense is your statement about karate exponents refusing to break up the kata. Because you are totally ignorant in terms of kata and bunkai and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that anyone might have more knowledge that you you continue to make stupid comments. Bunkai requires control, ie grappling. Grappling is not part of normal sport  karate type sparring. You will *never* see bunkai like we train or Iain teaches in that type of sparring. 




Hanzou said:


> Again, I'm simply asking for your evidence to the contrary. I have my experiences in Karate and it's pretty similar to the videos I've posted. My peers in  Shotokan fought like all of those Karatekas in those videos. You and K-man are saying that somewhere out there, Karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kick boxers. I simply would like to see it to believe it. I don't think that's too much to ask.



With your closed mind you don't want to see it. As I have said previously, you are a bigot.



Hanzou said:


> I also accept that people train differently than me. However, if we're having a *discussion* and you're saying that I'm wrong, I would like to see something beyond anedoctal evidence.



You do not accept that people train differently to you but your closed mind won't accept that their training is as valid as yours. Everything that anyone have said is anecdotal to you. Your training is anecdotal. I for one don't believe you have any experience of karate for a start. You might have been given a black belt in Shotokan for some unknown reason but you have less knowledge of its basic principles than a junior green belt.



Hanzou said:


> Why are you taking this so personally? I'm simply asking you to provide evidence that you guys utilize kata when you're sparring.



Because you keep asking the same questions, you get the same answers from different people and you haven't the mental acuity to take those answers on board. As *Tez* said, all the individual elements of kata are in any sparring, sport or otherwise. However kata, as I keep saying, is not for fighting.  What part of "kata is not for fighting" don't you understand. I reckon my five year old grandson could understand that!



Hanzou said:


> I understand that. My point (again) is that no one is fighting like Abernethy or like the old sensei that K-man posted up. ALL of them are fighting like kickboxers with their hands to the side while bouncing up and down. No one is doing wrist locks, throws, or the hand techniques showcased by Abernethy or others. You said that your school does it, so I'm just asking for some proof.



I presume "that old Sensei" is your reference to Masaji Taira. Actually he is probably 'old' because you are so young. :lfao:

If you want proof you can get out of your armchair and visit. I have no proof that you have any martial art background or training and I don't really care. The knowledge, or lack thereof, that you have demonstrated on this forum is at the lowest end of the scale. Why should anyone take you seriously? Where is your 'proof'?



Hanzou said:


> I suppose not. However, given that every Wado school I've seen fights like my old Shotokan school did, I don't think any Wado school is quite like yours.
> 
> Too bad we can't see it in action.



Yes it is a shame that your exposure to karate has been at such a low level, then again perhaps you didn't understand what you were watching.



Hanzou said:


> I never said I did. I said that every Wado place I've seen (and majority of Karate for that matter) spar in a similar fashion. You say that's not the case, I'm just asking you to provide proof of it. That's all.



You dismissed all evidence submitted. I would like to see proof that you are what you say you are.



Hanzou said:


> Why would you assume that I don't understand what Iain or Tairai (sp?) is doing? I know exactly what they're doing, I saw it for years in Karate. My issue with those *demonstrations* is that they don't reflect the actual fighting demonstrated within Karate which is *sparring*. A karateka is going to fight like they spar because that is their more natural fighting state.



I'll call BS on that for a start. I'll state categorically that You have never met or trained with anyone like Iain Abernethy or Masaji Taira. You never saw what they are doing in Shotokan. Please stick to the truth. The first time you even heard of these guys was on this forum. 

As to not seeing it is sparring ... I'll say it again ... It is because you have no knowledge of the subject. You don't find pearls in pig s#'t either. 




Hanzou said:


> The history of kickboxing doesn't explain why karatekas aren't using Bunkai or any of their kata applications while sparring.



True. But you know why karatekas don't use bunkai in sparring. You just can't acknowledge what you have had explained to you.



Hanzou said:


> As for Abernethy, I appreciate his scholarship, but until I actually see someone fighting with kata Bunkai (including him), I'll view what he does as nothing more than some cool demo work.
> 
> Everything looks good in demonstrations.


OMG!


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear, oh dear, you really don't get this do you. :lfao:
> 
> Let me see, I can see kicks, punches and ever so many other techniques all of which you will see in a kata. Never seen a front kick in a kata? Gosh.
> I think actually you don't mean kata at all, I think you are talking about Kihons.



You also see it in basic technique drills, and that is far more likely where they're pulling their movements from due to their high stance and hand placement.


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## K-man (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> LoL! Now I've heard everything. :lfao:


Please share. What have you heard?
 What do you doubt? Our prearranged drills were designed for competition. Now we don't train to compete so we don't have the prearranged drills. 

I know you don't understand anything about kata and bunkai so there is no point in even trying to explain that to you again.


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## K-man (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear, oh dear, you really don't get this do you. :lfao:
> 
> Let me see, I can see kicks, punches and ever so many other techniques all of which you will see in a kata. Never seen a front kick in a kata? Gosh.
> I think actually you don't mean kata at all, I think you are talking about Kihons.


*Tez*, *Tez*! Don't confuse the poor boy. I tried to explain kihon to him a while back. It went straight through to the keeper.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> *Tez*, *Tez*! Don't confuse the poor boy. I tried to explain kihon to him a while back. It went straight through to the keeper.




I'm just wondering how much any of us would learn if instructors demonstrated how to do techniques on a non complaint partner :boing2:

I think Iain's customer base would be somewhat different if he started using non complaint people to show the techniques on, I wonder if he's thought of making snuff movies.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> Did you ever consider that most MMA fighters fight a similar way? They fight that way because there is a rule set. Every video you have posted is sport style karate sparring. Did you ever consider that the rule set might be similar? Karateka from different styles fight in the same competition. Did it ever pass through your closed mind that karateka who don't spar in the sporting sense might fight a different way?



Why would they be using competition rules during a black belt test?



> Firstly, very few karate schools would claim that kata is their main training device. I will put my hand up and say that, for us, that is our major point of difference.
> 
> However, let's look at your ludicrous statement that Iain demonstrates his techniques on compliant partners. Since video I your only ruler as to what is real and what is not, perhaps you could post a video of any BJJ demonstration where the person is demonstrating his technique on a noncompliant partner, that is someone really trying to harm him.



Well that's easy;










Non compliant doesn't mean that the person is trying to harm the other person. Non compliant means that your partner is trying to prevent your technique while similarly trying to apply his techniques as well.

Abernethy in comparison;






That is a demonstration. His partner is complaint and is NOT trying to prevent Iain's technique.



> Next piece of nonsense is your statement about karate exponents refusing to break up the kata. Because you are totally ignorant in terms of kata and bunkai and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that anyone might have more knowledge that you you continue to make stupid comments. Bunkai requires control, ie grappling. Grappling is not part of normal sport karate type sparring. You will *never* see bunkai like we train or Iain teaches in that type of sparring.



So you're saying that grappling is somehow too dangerous to utilize while sparring? Um, several styles do nothing but grapple while sparring, I'm a part of one of those styles. Heck, MMA successively blends striking with grappling constantly. Are you trying to say that Karate can't blend striking and grappling in sparring but MMA and other styles can?



> With your closed mind you don't want to see it. As I have said previously, you are a bigot.



You guys have yet to provide anything beyond your personal experiences. I value that experience, but its purely subjective. Some objective evidence would be very helpful.



> You do not accept that people train differently to you but your closed mind won't accept that their training is as valid as yours. Everything that anyone have said is anecdotal to you. Your training is anecdotal. I for one don't believe you have any experience of karate for a start. You might have been given a black belt in Shotokan for some unknown reason but you have less knowledge of its basic principles than a junior green belt.



Based on what exactly? That I disagree with your viewpoint and have provided evidence to back up my point of view and experience?



> Because you keep asking the same questions, you get the same answers from different people and you haven't the mental acuity to take those answers on board. As *Tez* said, all the individual elements of kata are in any sparring, sport or otherwise. However kata, as I keep saying, is not for fighting.  What part of "kata is not for fighting" don't you understand. I reckon my five year old grandson could understand that!



So when you're defending yourself from an attacker meaning to do you harm, you're not going to be fighting? That is the purpose behind the kata right? Self defense purposes.



> If you want proof you can get out of your armchair and visit. I have no proof that you have any martial art background or training and I don't really care. The knowledge, or lack thereof, that you have demonstrated on this forum is at the lowest end of the scale. Why should anyone take you seriously? Where is your 'proof'?



Well the difference here is that I never claimed that you or Tez had no experience in Karate. I claimed that your viewpoint on Kata doesn't reflect how Karatekas actually train and or fight in general. Now I'm fully willing to accept that you and Tez are trained differently from the average karateka, but in order to validate that I simply asked for a link to your dojos or sparring clips to see what you guys are doing differently than seemingly every other karate school in the world. 

I'm sorry if that simple request was asking too much from the both of you.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

Golly, if K Man and I are the only ones doing what we do where the hell did we learn it from? Oh I know, all the other karateka we have ever trained with over the years. I know you don't actually read anything I write and that bores me so I shall leave you to your You Tube fetish in peace.

One thing....*the purpose of kata is to store/collate/record/hold all the movements and techniques of karate*. *It is for no other purpose*. What you do with those movements is up to you depending on your mindset and your instructors. Bunkai is finding uses for those moves in self defence. Self defence and sparring will use the same movements and techniques. Again how you do that is up to you.

There are people who do kata without knowing why, people who enjoy kata and find other uses for it but nothing takes away it's original purpose...a repository of movements and techniques.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> One thing....*the purpose of kata is to store/collate/record/hold all the movements and techniques of karate*. *It is for no other purpose*.



Bjj doesn't have kata and we record/store/collate and hold all the movements of the art just fine. Other arts without kata do the same.

So my original point on the first page stands.


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## Cirdan (Oct 11, 2014)

Tez, you know if you read that post out loud in front of a camera and post it on youtube, Hanzou might actually get it :lol:


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## K-man (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Why would they be using competition rules during a black belt test?.


Mainly because that is the way they have been shown to spar? That is the way they compete in all their tournaments? 



Hanzou said:


> Non compliant doesn't mean that the person is trying to harm the other person. Non compliant means that your partner is trying to prevent your technique while similarly trying to apply his techniques as well.


True, but when you are teaching someone a new technique you don't teach it against full resistance. We test all our techniques against full resistance and with a partner looking for a way out, not just resisting the technique.



Hanzou said:


> That is a demonstration. His partner is complaint and is NOT trying to prevent Iain's technique..


Exactly. He is demonstrating a technique, not testing it. 




Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that grappling is somehow too dangerous to utilize while sparring? Um, several styles do nothing but grapple while sparring, I'm a part of one of those styles. Heck, MMA successively blends striking with grappling constantly. Are you trying to say that Karate can't blend striking and grappling in sparring but MMA and other styles can?


BS again! Where did I say that? Your definition of 'sparring' was so wide that everything was included, yet the karate videos you post are all of sport sparring. My training incorporates striking with grappling, just not ground grappling if it can be avoided.



Hanzou said:


> You guys have yet to provide anything beyond your personal experiences. I value that experience, but its purely subjective. Some objective evidence would be very helpful..



Well as I have said, get off your **** and visit. I'm not putting videos of training up for you and I'm not going to go trawling the internet for you either. On past performance you wouldn't accept anything we put up anyway so why waste time?



Hanzou said:


> Based on what exactly? That I disagree with your viewpoint and have provided evidence to back up my point of view and experience?.



You are perfectly welcome to disagree with my viewpoint as I do with yours. However in this instance I am talking from the view point of someone who is teaching this stuff and you are arguing from the position of someone who has never seen it. Go figure!



Hanzou said:


> So when you're defending yourself from an attacker meaning to do you harm, you're not going to be fighting? That is the purpose behind the kata right? Self defense purposes..


What BS is this? If an attacker is bent on causing grief I am not going to fight? What are you taking? Fantasy pills? Kata is kihon as has been explained before. Kata is not for fighting as I have explained over and over. Kata had absolutely zero to do with self defence. You have absolutely no knowledge of kata.



Hanzou said:


> Well the difference here is that I never claimed that you or Tez had no experience in Karate. I claimed that your viewpoint on Kata doesn't reflect how Karatekas actually train and or fight in general. Now I'm fully willing to accept that you and Tez are trained differently from the average karateka, but in order to validate that I simply asked for a link to your dojos or sparring clips to see what you guys are doing differently than seemingly every other karate school in the world.
> 
> I'm sorry if that simple request was asking too much from the both of you.


As I said get off your **** and visit if you are truly interested. I visit other schools and I have trained in other countries to expand my understanding. I take every opportunity to train with people from other styles to see what they also have to offer. Perhaps you should do the same. Perhaps if you emptied your cup you might even pick up something of value too.


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## K-man (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Bjj doesn't have kata and we record/store/collate and hold all the movements of the art just fine. Other arts without kata do the same.
> 
> So my original point on the first page stands.


Nobody has said you need kata. If you had any knowledge on the subject you would know that karate kata was developed from the fighting forms of the CMAs. They were the way of passing the information from generation to generation where illiteracy was the norm and they had no access to video. BJJ is a recent innovation. You don't need to record it in a kata, you have YouTube!


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Most people teach a movement by demonstrating first on a non resisting uke, getting the students to learn that technique then having the students make it work against an opponent rather than a partner then to use it in a fighting/sparring situation. To do otherwise makes no sense.

We could start a thread on the qualities of a good uke couldn't we, it involves a tolerance to pain for sure. 


Oh and Judo has kata, tried it once, it's a real bugger, knee walking along a mat :boing2:


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> Mainly because that is the way they have been shown to spar? That is the way they compete in all their tournaments?



Doubtful, since non-competitive karate/TKD/TSD schools spar in a similar manner.



> True, but when you are teaching someone a new technique you don't teach it against full resistance. We test all our techniques against full resistance and with a partner looking for a way out, not just resisting the technique.
> 
> 
> Exactly. He is demonstrating a technique, not testing it.



How exactly would he test it?



> BS again! Where did I say that? Your definition of 'sparring' was so wide that everything was included, yet the karate videos you post are all of sport sparring. My training incorporates striking with grappling, just not ground grappling if it can be avoided.





			
				Kman said:
			
		

> _ Bunkai requires control, ie grappling. Grappling is not part of normal sport karate type sparring. You will _*never see bunkai like we train or Iain teaches in that type of sparring.*





> As I said get off your **** and visit if you are truly interested. I visit other schools and I have trained in other countries to expand my understanding. I take every opportunity to train with people from other styles to see what they also have to offer. Perhaps you should do the same. Perhaps if you emptied your cup you might even pick up something of value too.



Why would I visit a karate school in Australia that is doing the same stuff as schools here in the states?

I have a sinking suspicion that your karate students look just like those karatekas in the videos I posted.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Hanzou, I'll give you this, you are a trier. Made me laugh.



View attachment $1907444_10152658963671605_6923530260721565703_n.jpg


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## Argus (Oct 12, 2014)

Geez.

Hanzou, I see your crusade for BJJ, and I raise you my crusade for humility.

Actually, I think I'll just start crusading for humbleness across the whole forum. It's a forgotten, unrecognized virtue these days. Don't be so prideful of your knowledge, or it will seriously hamper your potential to learn and understand more.


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2014)

Argus said:


> Geez.
> 
> Hanzou, I see your crusade for BJJ, and I raise you my crusade for humility.
> 
> Actually, I think I'll just start crusading for humbleness across the whole forum. It's a forgotten, unrecognized virtue these days. Don't be so prideful of your knowledge, or it will seriously hamper your potential to learn and understand more.


Frankly, I'd settle for a little more common courtesy.  You don't have to respect people to post respectfully and courteously.  I'll also say that the discourtesy and disrespect are going liberally in ALL directions, not just from one particular user who practices BJJ.


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## K-man (Oct 12, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Doubtful, since non-competitive karate/TKD/TSD schools spar in a similar manner.
> 
> How exactly would he test it?
> 
> ...


And I *know* that that you have no idea and no interest in learning.


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## drop bear (Oct 12, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> :lfao::lfao::lfao:
> 
> Golly, if K Man and I are the only ones doing what we do where the hell did we learn it from? Oh I know, all the other karateka we have ever trained with over the years. I know you don't actually read anything I write and that bores me so I shall leave you to your You Tube fetish in peace.
> 
> ...



Wait just one sec because that is pretty much what I said.

"Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there."


And got this response.

"Sorry, that is purely ignorance of what kata is and what it is for. If that is what kata means to you, don't waste your time practising it and please don't even try to discuss it. It is a bit like a kindergarten kid trying to discuss the finer aspects of brain surgery with a brain surgeon."


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## drop bear (Oct 12, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Most people teach a movement by demonstrating first on a non resisting uke, getting the students to learn that technique then having the students make it work against an opponent rather than a partner then to use it in a fighting/sparring situation. To do otherwise makes no sense.
> 
> We could start a thread on the qualities of a good uke couldn't we, it involves a tolerance to pain for sure.
> 
> ...



I was actually going to do that thread arguing against the idea you need to thrash the hell out of the uke in demonstration. Beating on a guy just standing there proves nothing and so many people seem to feel they have to do it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Wait just one sec because that is pretty much what I said.
> 
> "Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there."
> 
> ...



Excuse me? I think you should make it plain that I didn't give that response.


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## Argus (Oct 12, 2014)

Steve said:


> Frankly, I'd settle for a little more common courtesy.  You don't have to respect people to post respectfully and courteously.  I'll also say that the discourtesy and disrespect are going liberally in ALL directions, not just from one particular user who practices BJJ.



Well, I agree. I can't even claim to be entirely innocent myself.

Just to be clear though, I have no problem with Hanzou. He often makes good points. I just think he's getting a bit carried away and drawing a lot of negative sentiments with the way he posts. He may be deserving of that in some cases, and he might not in others, but either way, I'd rather not see people at eachother's throats every time "grappling" comes up. I mean, I know you guys like your chokes and all, but...


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## K-man (Oct 12, 2014)

Sorry *Tez*. I'll fess up. It was me. :wavey:


For *Drop Bear*.
What you posted was not quite the same.
Your post suggests you believe kata is a set of movements that form the building blocks of a martial art.  Although that is true in a rudimentary sense, it is not even close to what kata really is. You don't need kata for that. Then you added all the 'what it's not' stuff which is really irrelevant to kata. (Of course here I am referring to karate kata only, that is totally different to Judo kata or Ninjutsu kata.) Even so all elements of kata bunkai would be totally relevant to environment. That is up to how you train the bunkai. De-escalation, maybe, escape and evade definitely, position of disadvantage, sometimes.



drop bear said:


> Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there.
> 
> What it isn't is something that allows_ t_*he person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Kata does not usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage.
> *





drop bear said:


> Wait just one sec because that is pretty much what I said.
> 
> "Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there."
> 
> ...


Kata, for those who study it, is so much more.

What *Tez* posted was ...



> One thing....the purpose of kata is to store/collate/record/hold all the movements and techniques of karate. It is for no other purpose. What you do with those movements is up to you depending on your mindset and your instructors. *Bunkai is finding uses for those moves in self defence.* Self defence and sparring will use the same movements and techniques. Again how you do that is up to you.


The key to *Tez*'s post is the reference to bunkai and self defence. Kata is a bit like a mnemonic. It gives you the techniques and it gives you the order, angle and direction. The bunkai gives you the application. Without understanding the meaning of the mnemonic, it is nothing more than a rhyme. 

Accusing you of ignorance of the kata was not intended to be an insult. (I would have called you ignorant if if was trying to insult.  I'll reserve that label for someone who deserves it far more than you.)

I am not concerned with people who do not understand kata etc. or what others do in their training but are willing to question and explore issues. What really pisses me off is when you try to explain something to someone with a closed mind who ignores any explanation you might offer. I have spent many years researching kata and I take exception when the knowledge I have obtained is dismissed out of hand by someone with no knowledge of anything, who claims to be all knowing about everything. End of rant!


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## drop bear (Oct 12, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Excuse me? I think you should make it plain that I didn't give that response.



K man who thanked your post gave that response.


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## drop bear (Oct 12, 2014)

K-man said:


> Sorry *Tez*. I'll fess up. It was me. :wavey:
> 
> 
> For *Drop Bear*.
> ...




The bolded part is kang soo do,s post quoted and changed a bit to make the point I was trying to make a bit more pronounced. In that it is kind of ridiculous to apply that criteria to all the elements of your training.

Or even worse just to aim it at training methods you may not like or understand.

By the way. I don't like kata.

Why?

Just don't like it. Simple as that personal choice and I would prefer to do other things.

That does not reflect on kata that just reflects on me.

If I had a sudden urge to take up karate or something. I would stfu do the kata and just deal with it. Because my other belief is if you do a system you do all of it. Turn up bow, put on the uniform, learn the language the whole shebang.


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## Tez3 (Oct 13, 2014)

Glad that's cleared up...ish.

I think many people have the wrong idea about katas, they imagine it's how one is supposed to fight, one kata movement after another which would be pretty weird actually. Another thing I'm not sure people realise is that karate styles differ from each other, Wado for example has short stances not the long ones you often associate  with 'karate', it does it's 'high' blocks differently and it contains a lot of throws, takedowns and grappling type movements. 
 I think too there's difficulty in understanding the concept of Bunkai, the best analogy I can think of at the moment ( someone else can come up with a better one I'm sure!) is to think of an old fashioned tailors shop, in the back he has hundreds of paper patterns...the kata.. for all sorts of clothes, he knows from experience and being taught by a master tailor which patterns work best with which material and for what purpose, that's the Bunkai. You can of course do without the Bunkai, just use the pattern pieces as you want, it makes it more hit or miss that the trousers will match the jacket and that the waistcoat goes with both but the suit will still be a suit at the end of the day and will do the job. Bunkai takes the guessing and hoping it will be fine out of the equation. It does allows for experimentation, working out which material is right for which garment, you don't want a dress made out of heavy tweed and a suit made of flimsy lace necessarily though if that works for you it's good to know before you wear it. Being able to pick the right material for the right situation instinctively could be a life saver, which is why Bunkai is mostly and mainly for self defence (almost exclusively actually but never say it's never used for something else!) , the movements in kata though are those in karate so you can easily use moves from kata in sparring indeed you would be hard pushed not to!
That's probably as clear as mud especially to those with minds made up already but hey I tried :boing2:


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## Paul_D (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> So when you're defending yourself from an attacker meaning to do you harm, you're not going to be fighting? That is the purpose behind the kata right? Self defense purposes.


No you are not going to be fighting them.  Fighting is not the same as self defence.  Yes the purpose of kata is self defence, not fighting.  Are you saying that you think fighting and self defence are the same thing?


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## K-man (Oct 13, 2014)

Hmm! This promises to be interesting.

opcorn:


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## Paul_D (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Why would they be using competition rules during a black belt test?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Non compliance is required for BJJ or any comeptition.  It is required becasue you are competing against a skilled/trained martial artist. Therefore once you get the in a position to apply an armbar (for example) they know what is coming and will resist.  In order therefore to win a competition, you need to be able to to apply your armber (or any other techniques) against a skilled opponent who not only recognises what is coming, but also probably knows some sort of counter.

As you have chosen to post a video of Iain's Naihanchi Bunaki, I will use this as an example.  The opening movement of Naihanchi is a pre-emptive strike to the carotid sinus.  Such a strike will at best KO or at worse lead to severe disorientation.  How therefore does an untraiend street thug prevent:-

A) a pre-emptive strike he doesn't know is coming
b) resit the following technique when he is either unconscious or severely disorientated.

How to you test these techniques against a non complaint partner?  You cannot punch someoen in the throat and then test if they are able to resist whatever you chose to follow that up with.

If you wish to see video's of Karateka training differently then you can I suggest you purchase Iain's video Kata Based Sparring, in which he Demonstartes how he pressure tests the technique of kata against resistant opponents in sparring (sans the pre-emptive strikes used to gain compliance).


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2014)

Paul_D said:


> Non compliance is required for BJJ or any comeptition.



Its required for non competition fighting/self defense as well.



> It is required becasue you are competing against a skilled/trained martial artist. Therefore once you get the in a position to apply an armbar (for example) they know what is coming and will resist.  In order therefore to win a competition, you need to be able to to apply your armber (or any other techniques) against a skilled opponent who not only recognises what is coming, but also probably knows some sort of counter.



And if you can perform an armbar against a skilled martial artist or grappler, imagine what you can do against an unskilled person.



> As you have chosen to post a video of Iain's Naihanchi Bunaki, I will use this as an example.  The opening movement of Naihanchi is a pre-emptive strike to the carotid sinus.  Such a strike will at best KO or at worse lead to severe disorientation.  How therefore does an untraiend street thug prevent:-
> 
> A) a pre-emptive strike he doesn't know is coming
> b) resit the following technique when he is either unconscious or severely disorientated.
> ...



In other words you're not testing the technique. Thus when it comes time to actually use the technique (even in practice), you don't have the ability to utilize it properly because you never actually used the technique before.

Hence why those karatekas spar the way they do.



> If you wish to see video's of Karateka training differently then you can I suggest you purchase Iain's video Kata Based Sparring, in which he Demonstartes how he pressure tests the technique of kata against resistant opponents in sparring (sans the pre-emptive strikes used to gain compliance).



One guy doing it doesn't really change the conversation. The vast majority of karate schools are not fighting that way. Assuming that Iain is actually doing kata-based sparring of course.


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## Tez3 (Oct 13, 2014)

'Not testing the technique' this is annoying because you don't read and inwardly digest what others have written.

Firstly the videos show clips of Iain demonstrating the technique, well he has to doesn't he otherwise how the hell do you know what it is? next you learn the technique in whatever manner you learn. Then you can 'pressure test it' on a non compliant opponent/partner/uke. do you think we just watch the videos or Iain himself just demo-ing things and go 'oh right, ok I'll do that if I'm attacked', then go off and have a cuppa? If you train with Iain, he explains, demos then you practice, he makes sure you have grasped the techniques then you go for it within reason, the exceptions being as Paul has explained those techniques which will cause a bit more than pain. 

I think there's some very odd ideas of what happens when you train going on. I train BJJ as well, guess what, our instructor demo's it on a willing volunteer (lol) first he will do it full speed but not full on, then he demos it slowly so we can see what he's doing, then he asks 'any questions' then we partner up and try to do that techniques on compliant partners because neither of us know the techniques and we help each other work it out, it often takes two, we often ask for help from the instructor who will help place arms, legs etc. so we learn the move, then we grapple, usually back to back so we can practice actually using the technique on someone resisting and also trying to put it on you. Guess what, we do exactly the same when learning self defence movements. We know how to use those techniques because we practice, we don't however punch each other in the throat. what we don't do is just watch videos. When training self defence we use as realistic scenarios as we can and guess what we practice the kata which has the techniques in, we don't go mindlessly through the katas, while do each movement we know in our heads what it is for, we also use visualisation, a very valuable tool as many sports psychologists will tell you. For us training  includes crowd and riot control type scenarios nut that's us and what we do outside the club lol. 
  I don't know what this nonsense about not testing the techniques comes from. Also nonsense is this repeated mantra of 'how karateka spar' self defence isn't sparring, even the children know that. :lfao:

Perhaps what is baffling some is that there are more elements in karate than there are in some other styles, this is neither good nor bad it just needs understanding.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 13, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So you wanted this thread. You have it.



Since my last (only) post in this thread I've been out in the deep woods on an SEP Gathering.  Just got back and have been catching up on emails and various posts.  I have not read all the pages of this thread and I'm unlikely to do so, however, I'll touch on a few things starting with Drop Bear's respnse.  To begin with, DB you're either very confused or very dishonest.  As in my last post to you, I suggested that if YOU wanted to gain a better understanding of kata then you should start a thread and seek others input.  So which is it, are you confused or dishonest?



> The thread is not about kata. It is about katas relevance according to your set of standards.



Which are two things from a previous thread separated by multiple pages and not linked in anyway in that thread.  You're linking two things that were in different conversations.



> Does kata fail when subjected to your tests?



Why would it?

A kata contains principles on combat.  One can have a periphreal understanding of the individual movements or a more in-depth understanding.  As I always like to use as an example, the opening movements of Pinan Shodan can be viewed as a block (and a rather inefficent block) or it can be viewed as a shoulder lock (and a rather effective one).  Further, the shoulder lock demonstrates and effective principle of locking that can be succesful standing or in the prone position and even from a grapple.  This provides quite a bit of training and drilling and use on just ONE movement from the kata.  In fact, one could train several sessions to several months on just this one movement and the techniques that flow from it.  

Does it succed or fail when subject to the list I posted in the sparring thread?  Is this a serious question?  No, it really isn't but I'll point out the obvious to you anyway.  Using the above shoulder lock again as the example, can you use it indoors and out?  Yes.  Can you use it in full light or dim light?  Yes.  Can you use it when defending against multiple opponents?  Yes.  Can it be used in a scenario based drill?  All day long.  Shall I go on down the list?

Kata is meant to be broken down into bunkai.  Bunkai can be drilled individually by rote or in live action scenario based drills.  Kata is not utilized by every art as a training methodology.  It is however used in many arts as an effective training methodology.  Kata can be nothing more than a pre-arranged dance learned to get to the next colored belt (i.e. a class filler) or it can be an indepth tool of study containing a multitude of real world effective principles that can be used in a violent altercation.


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Firstly the videos show clips of Iain demonstrating the technique, well he has to doesn't he otherwise how the hell do you know what it is? next you learn the technique in whatever manner you learn. Then you can 'pressure test it' on a non compliant opponent/partner/uke. do you think we just watch the videos or Iain himself just demo-ing things and go 'oh right, ok I'll do that if I'm attacked', then go off and have a cuppa? If you train with Iain, he explains, demos then you practice, he makes sure you have grasped the techniques then you go for it within reason, the exceptions being as Paul has explained those techniques which will cause a bit more than pain.




Partner drills is not the same as free sparring, nor is it a very high level of resistance, no matter how much uke is "resisting" you.

You bring up how we train in Bjj, and that's quite similar to how we train at my school, and in turn that's very similar to how you would train at that Abernethy seminar. The difference being of course is the roll. Rolling is the laboratory in which we test the techniques we learned at full resistance against a non-compliant partner. Since its relatively safe, it allows us to achieve a high level of grappling skill relatively quickly.



> I don't know what this nonsense about not testing the techniques comes from.



It comes from the fact that you can't punch people in the throat or elbow them in the face during practice. So how do you ever really pressure test the technique? Simple, you don't. You certainly perform the motions, but unless you're constantly hitting a variety of resisting opponents in the throat with an attack, you're not really testing the technique. So when the time comes to actually use the technique against someone trying to do you harm, you don't have the background knowledge to actually utilize the technique properly, giving it a higher likelihood to fail.


That is a limitation of striking arts in general, not just Karate.

In Bjj, I've choked out skinny guys, big guys, untrained guys, and even a few women. None of them wanted to get choked out, and all of them provided a high level of resistance which forced me to use a high level of skill to achieve the choke. Thus when the time came when I needed to apply a choke on someone who was trying to do me harm, I was able to apply a choke swiftly and efficiently. It was so swift in fact that I needed to release far more quickly than I anticipated.



> Perhaps what is baffling some is that there are more elements in karate than there are in some other styles, this is neither good nor bad it just needs understanding.



Karate is a very broad art. It is unfortunate that most karate dojos simply skim the surface.


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## Paul_D (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Partner drills is not the same as free sparring, nor is it a very high level of resistance, no matter how much uke is "resisting" you.


I know, that's why it's called kata based sparring, not kata based partner drills.



Hanzou said:


> You bring up how we train in Bjj, and that's quite similar to how we train at my school, and in turn that's very similar to how you would train at that Abernethy seminar. The difference being of course is the roll. Rolling is the laboratory in which we test the techniques we learned at full resistance against a non-compliant partner. Since its relatively safe, it allows us to achieve a high level of grappling skill relatively quickly.


As is kata based sparring (Well I dint bring up BJJ, you did by posting video)



Hanzou said:


> It comes from the fact that you can't punch people in the throat or elbow them in the face during practice. So how do you ever really pressure test the technique? Simple, you don't. You certainly perform the motions, but unless you're constantly hitting a variety of resisting opponents in the throat with an attack, you're not really testing the technique. So when the time comes to actually use the technique against someone trying to do you harm, you don't have the background knowledge to actually utilize the technique properly, giving it a higher likelihood to fail.



Again, in SD you are not fighting a skilled trained martial artist (unless BJJers are in the habit of starting street brawls?) who will know what is coming and then be able to resists it or use a counter technique.  I therefore do not have to pressure test it against a skilled and trained martial artist as skilled/trained martial artists aren't my enemy in SD.

Choki motub reguallrly tested his kata in "the street" and said _The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a  professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield. They were,  however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy  being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.  _The key here is _"someone who had no idea of the strategy  being used_".



Hanzou said:


> In Bjj, I've choked out skinny guys, big guys, untrained guys, and even a few women. None of them wanted to get choked out, and all of them provided a high level of resistance which forced me to use a high level of skill to achieve the choke.Thus when the time came when I needed to apply a choke on someone who was trying to do me harm, I was able to apply a choke swiftly and efficiently. It was so swift in fact that I needed to release far more quickly than I anticipated.


So you have just proved my, and Choki Motobu's, once you used it on someone who was untrained there was no resistance, becasue he had no training he had no idea what was going on and therefore couldn't in your words "prevent" or "apply his own technique" (i.e. counter).

Comparing training with skilled martial artists and untrained thugs is comparing apples and organges,



Hanzou said:


> Karate is a very broad art. It is unfortunate that most karate dojos simply skim the surface.


Agreed.  It is a great art, but the majority of Karate clubs effectively do little more than a physical fitness training regime based around karate.  Even the teachers often don't even understand the art they claim to teach, which can clearly be seen in their interpretation of Bunkai.


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## Cirdan (Oct 13, 2014)

Sniff! Is that the old stale and rotten smell of the "aliveness" argument in the air?

Methinks a real blast from the past this thread is becomming.


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2014)

Paul_D said:


> Again, in SD you are not fighting a skilled trained martial artist (unless BJJers are in the habit of starting street brawls?) who will know what is coming and then be able to resists it or use a counter technique.  I therefore do not have to pressure test it against a skilled and trained martial artist as skilled/trained martial artists aren't my enemy in SD.



Just because someone is unskilled doesn't mean that they can't fully resist your technique, especially if you've never really applied it before.



> Choki motub reguallrly tested his kata in "the street" and said _The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a  professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield. They were,  however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy  being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.  _The key here is _"someone who had no idea of the strategy  being used_".



Interesting theory, but I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with Motub for a variety of reasons.



> So you have just proved my, and Choki Motobu's, once you used it on someone who was untrained there was no resistance, becasue he had no training he had no idea what was going on and therefore couldn't in your words "prevent" or "apply his own technique" (i.e. counter).



He had no idea because most people have no clue about high level grappling. However, people are very familiar with kicks and punches. When I started karate for example, I had some idea of what was going on. When I started Bjj, I was on a completely different planet.



> Agreed.  It is a great art, but the majority of Karate clubs effectively do little more than a physical fitness training regime based around karate.  Even the teachers often don't even understand the art they claim to teach, which can clearly be seen in their interpretation of Bunkai.



Well, I'm glad we at least agree on something.


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## Paul_D (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Its required for non competition fighting/self defense as well.


I have taken the time to explain why I believe it is required for competition, and why it is not necessarily required for SD.  You have every right to disagree with me, but for you to just post this comment and then not explain why is not only rather rude, but is the equivalent of children arguing in a school yard "yes it is"/"no it isn't".

Your other responses to myself and others show that you have not actually paying any attention to what people are saying or taking on board any of our points.  You are simply quoting our replies, ignoring them, and continuing to repeat your own viewpoint ad infinitum. 

I cannot see you taking on board anything anyone is saying if it is different from your own view point, and so I see little point in continuing the discussion with you.  If I wanted that sort of argument there are plenty of other  MA forums on the web I can go to for that.


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## Tez3 (Oct 13, 2014)

Dear me, it's partner drills to *learn it* then with us you go for it, did you miss that bit, you go for it. 
.Oh and Kihons!


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 13, 2014)

reading this thread is alot like watching tag team boxing or tag team wrestling.
lets all pick a partner and a side and ...............Oh do we actually resist or do we do motions against non-resistive.
people it is time o agree to disagree with each other on this on


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## Tez3 (Oct 13, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> reading this thread is alot like watching tag team boxing or tag team wrestling.
> lets all pick a partner and a side and ...............Oh do we actually resist or do we do motions against non-resistive.
> people it is time o agree to disagree with each other on this on



Actually it's not, it's about people explaining how and what they think _as happens in a discussion or debate, _and then being told, rudely, that they know nothing about their own training. it's fine to disagree among ourselves what is not fine is to style bash and to tell people they are wrong because we are doing the 'wrong' style of martial art.


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2014)

Paul_D said:


> I have taken the time to explain why I believe it is required for competition, and why it is not necessarily required for SD.  You have every right to disagree with me, but for you to just post this comment and then not explain why is not only rather rude, but is the equivalent of children arguing in a school yard "yes it is"/"no it isn't".



Except I did explain why its also necessary for SD, you simply missed it.

Again, if I'm doing a movement constantly in practice under significant pressure, I'm more capable of doing that same movement in a SD situation where I am again under significant pressure. 

If I'm doing a pre-arranged form, without significant pressure, I am less capable of doing that same movement in a SD situation where I am under significant pressure.

As stated before, if we have two Bjj black belts, and one did his techniques flawlessly against a dummy, and another did his techniques flawlessly against a variety of living, breathing, resisting opponents while rolling, who would you believe to be the superior Bjj black belt?

Kata, pre-arranged drills, and one step sparring isn't much different than doing techniques on a dummy.



> I cannot see you taking on board anything anyone is saying if it is different from your own view point, and so I see little point in continuing the discussion with you.  If I wanted that sort of argument there are plenty of other  MA forums on the web I can go to for that.



I'm sorry you feel that way.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Kata, pre-arranged drills, and one step sparring isn't much different than doing techniques on a dummy.



No it is not.

You do not require another person or a dummy to practice kata, pre-arranged drills, and one step sparring are not like doing techniques on a dummy unless it is a sentient animatronic dummy. They are somewhere in between doing it solo and doing it on a fully resisting opponent..


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> No it is not.
> 
> You do not require another person or a dummy to practice kata, pre-arranged drills, and one step sparring are not like doing techniques on a dummy unless it is a sentient animatronic dummy. They are somewhere in between doing it solo and doing it on a fully resisting opponent..



You misunderstand. I'm saying that those training practices is like a Bjj guy training on a dummy instead of a living opponent.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> You misunderstand. I'm saying that those training practices is like a Bjj guy training on a dummy instead of a living opponent.



So then why is practicing a technique in a pre-arranged drill on another person in other arts like Karate and TKD different than practicing a technique on a BJJ mat on another person? Because you seem to think there's a fundamental difference, there's not.


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> So then why is practicing a technique in a pre-arranged drill on another person in other arts like Karate and TKD different than practicing a technique on a BJJ mat on another person? Because you seem to think there's a fundamental difference, there's not.



Again, I said the difference maker is the fact that we have rolling/sparring where we get to test the techniques we learn under significant pressure and resistance against other skilled grapplers.

Thus when we grapple someone who isn't a skilled grappler, this happens;


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You just can't. Sorry does my head in. If you need realism in training. Need to be in the area you are going to fight have access to every tool you could conceivably use because otherwise you will not be able to fight.
> 
> Then kata does not fit that module.
> 
> ...


Kata vs. sparring. Why not have both? Or what if both? And how do you define "kata?" 

The topic of one vs. the other has been discussed so many times on MT (and probably everywhere else by now), and the positions of people are so ingrained that if you're in more than one discussion on the topic, you could practically just copy and paste your response from the first thread and dispense with coming up with new ones.

I've seen a LOT of people bash both sparring and kata, and often for almost the exact same reasons. Each side states emphatically, "well we do that too," cites all of the luminaries of their art and how they defeated many opponents as a result of their sparring or kata training, and with each citation comes the proverbial, "and that's why (insert training method) works/is better/is better than yours."

The truth is that unless you're in a real fight, you're not in a real fight. Everything you do is going to stop short in some way for the sake of safety (blinding your partners in order to practice realistic eye gouges is frowned upon).

I've trained in arts that use kata with no sparring, I've trained in arts that use sparring, but no kata, and I've trained in arts that use both, though depending on how you define kata and sparring, chances are that most arts, if not all arts, use both in some form or another.

There are different types of kata, and different ways of teaching with kata depending on the art; some use the solo kata by themselves, training in a broader range of techniques separately and with a partner. Others use the solo kata, and then break down the kata and train with a partner on the hidden techniques. Other arts have kata that are partnered and may train the kata by themselves, using separate drills to train in resistance, while others will do that to teach the moves, and then perform the kata with resistance.

Sparring is the same way; some sparring is exclusively for sport and preparation for competition. Some sparring is scenario based, and some sparring is realistic, but performed strictly in the confines of the studio and in whatever uniform the students normally wear.

I'm going to agree with you in the thesis statement you make: "You can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism," as both have their limitations; how well each works is really a matter of how the art is taught as a whole rather than a matter of kata vs. sparring.

I have never trained in a school that calls itself reality based or scenario based. But whatever I did train in worked well enough that when I've had to use it "on the street," it worked and I went home. That doesn't mean that scenario based and reality based training is inferior or unnecessary; it simply means that those schools utilize a different teaching pedagogy than the ones where I trained.

And that's really what it comes down to; teaching pedagogy. That, and the philosophy of the art (every art has one, even if it's as rudimentary as kill or be killed). Different methods are better suited to some arts than to others, and better suited to some people than to others. 

You can comb the web and find videos of any style beating any style, and variation of any style beating any other variation of that same style. Quoting from the Ip Man movie, "It's not the style; it's you." That, and your instructor.


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## K-man (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Karate is a very broad art. It is unfortunate that most karate dojos simply skim the surface.


OMG! Something I can agree with 100%.
:s391:


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## K-man (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> When I started karate for example, I had some idea of what was going on. When I started Bjj, I was on a completely different planet.
> 
> Well, I'm glad we at least agree on something.


Mate, you are still on that other planet but at last you are starting to make sense! :s81:


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## K-man (Oct 13, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Except I did explain why its also necessary for SD, you simply missed it.
> 
> Again, if I'm doing a movement constantly in practice under significant pressure, I'm more capable of doing that same movement in a SD situation where I am again under significant pressure.
> 
> ...


*Hanzou*, there have been dozens of posts trying to point out to you the difference between kata (kihon) and bunkai (application of kata). Bunkai is nothing like doing techniques on a dummy. Bunkai *is* tested on a non compliant partner. Kata is nothing to do with fighting in its kihon form. Pre-arranged drills and one step sparring have their place, perhaps not in your training and certainly not in mine but that doesn't invalidate them as training tools for those who do use them.

Get a life!

As to the two BJJ blackbelts, what you guys do with dummies is up to you.


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2014)

K-man said:


> The kata is prearranged but the bunkai isn't. It is what we call predictive response. Because it involves holding, the response of the attacker can be predicted. For example, if I am controlling your left arm and I strike say backfist to your head with my right, you either get hit or you protect with your right arm. If my strike is effective end of scenario. If you block then I switch control to your right arm and hit you with the left. We can train bunkai with anybody because uke's response is just what anyone would do. It is not choreographed. Bunkai doesn't work in the boxing/sparring situation because you can't control the response, another reason why *Hanzou* will never find recognisable aspects of kata in his sparring videos. We used to have pre-arranged drills but honesty, they were pretty useless and I took them out of the syllabus.
> :asian:



Sure, I'd imagine that the counters, things that you can do, etc, are pretty much endless.


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I was actually going to do that thread arguing against the idea you need to thrash the hell out of the uke in demonstration. Beating on a guy just standing there proves nothing and so many people seem to feel they have to do it.



I've never done that during a demo of a tech.  Of course, after the tech is done slow, I would usually have them pick up the pace a bit, you know, putting a bit more realism into it, but even still, I never beat the hell out of my partner.


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## K-man (Oct 13, 2014)

MJS said:


> Sure, I'd imagine that the counters, things that you can do, etc, are pretty much endless.


What I teach to all my guys, Karate and Krav, is to use what they have in their grasp. So they will respond to an attack hopefully in a reflex way, as I do not teach blocks as I have explained before. The object is to engage and finish the altercation as soon as possible. In Krav it will often be from the 360 defence in one way or the other, in karate from 'sticky hands' and maybe into bunkai. Once you have control the options are like a smorgasbord. 
:asian:


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2014)

MJS said:


> I've never done that during a demo of a tech.  Of course, after the tech is done slow, I would usually have them pick up the pace a bit, you know, putting a bit more realism into it, but even still, I never beat the hell out of my partner.



I have seen it happen a bit. Security training it happens a lot.

"Here let me get you in this gooseneck"
"OK"
"Now let the other guy get you in a gooseneck"
"Fine"
"Now try to escape" GRIND.....
"Ow Ow. I can't and that really hurts"
"Well this shows how effective these locks are"


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Since my last (only) post in this thread I've been out in the deep woods on an SEP Gathering.  Just got back and have been catching up on emails and various posts.  I have not read all the pages of this thread and I'm unlikely to do so, however, I'll touch on a few things starting with Drop Bear's respnse.  To begin with, DB you're either very confused or very dishonest.  As in my last post to you, I suggested that if YOU wanted to gain a better understanding of kata then you should start a thread and seek others input.  So which is it, are you confused or dishonest?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So it is now principles of combat and elements that can be used. And not something you will revert to under stress. Causing some sort of robotic response.

Sorry but that agument needs to get tuned up a bit before it becomes your anti sport super weapon.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Again, I said the difference maker is the fact that we have rolling/sparring where we get to test the techniques we learn under significant pressure and resistance against other skilled grapplers.



In free sparring against someone of comparable skill and experience and going flat out you get to test your attack and defense against resistance under significant pressure, so again no fundamental difference other than the level of contact (it is generally a lot safer to get choked out and submitted than it is to get punched in the head and kicked in the groin repeatedly).



Hanzou said:


> Thus when we grapple someone who isn't a skilled grappler, this happens;



The only thing that video shows is that there is a huge difference between a beginner who is self taught and a high level practitioner of an art. That is how it should be. I can guarantee you if a beginner who was self taught in their back yard walked in off the street and I sparred with them flat out they wouldn't stand a chance either.


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## K-man (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So it is now principles of combat and elements that can be used. And not something you will revert to under stress. Causing some sort of robotic response.
> 
> Sorry but that agument needs to get tuned up a bit before it becomes your anti sport super weapon.


Whether you revert to it under stress depends on your training. If someone says they know twenty five kata you can be pretty sure they probably don't know even one in a way that it could be used in a fight. Goju Ryu have twelve kata. I reckon I would be able to use two if the opportunity arose in a fight. Remember, the masters of years ago spent years learning just one kata and may have learned two or three in their lifetime.

I don't see kata (or the bunkai) in sport any time soon.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> Whether you revert to it under stress depends on your training. If someone says they know twenty five kata you can be pretty sure they probably don't know even one in a way that it could be used in a fight. Goju Ryu have twelve kata. I reckon I would be able to use two if the opportunity arose in a fight. Remember, the masters of years ago spent years learning just one kata and may have learned two or three in their lifetime.
> 
> I don't see kata (or the bunkai) in sport any time soon.
> :asian:



Wait we are comparing it to that guy who took a gun off a dude and then handed it back  or Someone who spars on a mat but cannot figure out what to do if he is in between two cars. Robotic. That is not someone who can take a concept out of kata and then apply it.

Yeah that guy what was his name again?

I don't feel people are inherently that stupid under stress as a general rule.


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## K-man (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Wait we are comparing it to that guy who took a gun off a dude and then handed it back  or Someone who spars on a mat but cannot figure out what to do if he is in between two cars. Robotic. That is not someone who can take a concept out of kata and then apply it.
> 
> Yeah that guy what was his name again?
> 
> I don't feel people are inherently that stupid under stress as a general rule.


Maybe I am stupid. Exactly what are you trying to say here? It is making no sense to me at all.
:asian:


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So it is now principles of combat and elements that can be used. And not something you will revert to under stress. Causing some sort of robotic response.
> 
> Sorry but that agument needs to get tuned up a bit before it becomes your anti sport super weapon.



Couple of things:

First, you haven't answered my question yet;  are you confused or simply dishonest?

Secondly, perhaps it is your poor grammar and continual use of the fragmentary sentence, but I don't have a clue what you're talking about.


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## MJS (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So it is now principles of combat and elements that can be used. And not something you will revert to under stress. Causing some sort of robotic response.
> 
> Sorry but that agument needs to get tuned up a bit before it becomes your anti sport super weapon.



I know you're addressing this to someone else, but I'll comment anyways.  First, I'll start by saying that I'm not anti sport.  I've said a million times, that there is NO ultimate art, despite what some people think.  You show me the ultimate, end all be all art, and I'll train there in a hearbeat!!  But, we all should know, that there is no best art.  We can all learn from everything.  I've learned things from MMA, BJJ, JKD, etc, and I've added them to my own training.  It's not something I teach.  

I came from a Kenpo background.  There are numerous techs. in that art.  IMHO, the techs are comprised of nothing but your basics, ie: punches, kicks, blocks, etc, put together in a specific fashion, to address a certain attack.  NOTHING is set in stone with those techs though.  If we're initially defending against a right hand lapel grab, and suddenly the guy changes up the attack, and adds in a punch, we need to be able to adapt, and adjust on the fly, to deal with the change.  Much like kata, the SD techs, are nothing more than preset moves...that's it!  BUT....nothing says that those moves have to be done verbatim, and anyone that does is full of it!  This is why I used to harp on my students, the importance of the basics. The techs are nothing more than ideas, just like a mount escape in BJJ.  There're quite a few, but they're not set in stone.  I doubt you're going to find a BJJ gym that says you've got to do this escape move by move, like a robot, each and every time, whether you're just practicing or in a competition.  Things change, and the BJJ guy is going to adapt, just like the stand up fighter.  

So yes, if you train correctly...that being the key word...those principles, concepts, ideas, etc, and drill the **** out of them, then yes, you will revert back to them, under stress. No, I may not use the step by step move by move tech that we trained in class, but you can bet I'm going to use parts of them.  It's rare that you'll see anyone, even under stress, when things are changing all the time, use something verbatim.  The BJJ guy going for an arm lock...well, unless the guy on the bottom is an idiot, he's not going to let it happen...so he's going to move, fight it, whatever, and the other guy is going to have to adjust accordingly.  

IMO, kata, much like the empty hand techs, are nothing more than moves (basics) put together in a certain fashion.  Just like a boxer, training a jab, cross, hook on the pads.  It's a preset combo, but nothing says he's got to throw those punches in that exact order.  Maybe he'll throw a cross and then a hook...who knows.  No, you're not going to fight like you would in a kata.  That's crazy thinking..lol.  But as I said...if you train right, you just might pull off a certain move, IF it feels right at that moment.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Couple of things:
> 
> First, you haven't answered my question yet;  are you confused or simply dishonest?
> 
> Secondly, perhaps it is your poor grammar and continual use of the fragmentary sentence, but I don't have a clue what you're talking about.



OK your question is a really weird one so I decided to let you off the hook with it. But if you want an explanation of why your question is silly. You have fabricated two outcomes based on your own bias expecting me to have to choose one. I don't really have to choose either or answer your question at all.

False dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Relying on things like a false dilemma is dishonest by the way. Relying on being a grammar Nazi is also dishonest.

But in simple terms I am still arguing your logic still is not sound regarding sparring kata and self defence. Either we are robots under stress and cannot apply kata or we are not and can apply kata. And either we are robots under stress and cannot apply sparring or we are not and can apply sparring.

But to direct the idea that we are robots when we spar and not when we do kata is a case of you just making stuff up.


----------



## MJS (Oct 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> Whether you revert to it under stress depends on your training. If someone says they know twenty five kata you can be pretty sure they probably don't know even one in a way that it could be used in a fight. Goju Ryu have twelve kata. I reckon I would be able to use two if the opportunity arose in a fight. Remember, the masters of years ago spent years learning just one kata and may have learned two or three in their lifetime.
> 
> I don't see kata (or the bunkai) in sport any time soon.
> :asian:



Couldn't agree more with this!!!  I used to laugh when I'd teach someone a new technique, tell them to work on it, and I'd be back.  I'd come back a few minutes later, and they'd tell me that "They've got it, and they're ready to learn another!"  Well, needless to say, 9 times out of 10, they didn't 'get it' and I was still able to find things for them to fix.  Sorry, but IMHO, i doesn't matter if you know 3 techs or 30...if you suck at all of them, then learning yet 1 more, isn't going to help you much. LOL.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 14, 2014)

MJS said:


> I know you're addressing this to someone else, but I'll comment anyways.  First, I'll start by saying that I'm not anti sport.  I've said a million times, that there is NO ultimate art, despite what some people think.  You show me the ultimate, end all be all art, and I'll train there in a hearbeat!!  But, we all should know, that there is no best art.  We can all learn from everything.  I've learned things from MMA, BJJ, JKD, etc, and I've added them to my own training.  It's not something I teach.
> 
> I came from a Kenpo background.  There are numerous techs. in that art.  IMHO, the techs are comprised of nothing but your basics, ie: punches, kicks, blocks, etc, put together in a specific fashion, to address a certain attack.  NOTHING is set in stone with those techs though.  If we're initially defending against a right hand lapel grab, and suddenly the guy changes up the attack, and adds in a punch, we need to be able to adapt, and adjust on the fly, to deal with the change.  Much like kata, the SD techs, are nothing more than preset moves...that's it!  BUT....nothing says that those moves have to be done verbatim, and anyone that does is full of it!  This is why I used to harp on my students, the importance of the basics. The techs are nothing more than ideas, just like a mount escape in BJJ.  There're quite a few, but they're not set in stone.  I doubt you're going to find a BJJ gym that says you've got to do this escape move by move, like a robot, each and every time, whether you're just practicing or in a competition.  Things change, and the BJJ guy is going to adapt, just like the stand up fighter.
> 
> ...



We are missing a premis that is part of my OP.

In a fight you will revert to your training due to stress. The example made was that cop. Who trained a gun disarm and handed back the gun. Then disarmed a guy on the street gave the guy the gun back and was shot.

This shows that if you train in a method that is unrealistic like in a gym or dojo you will be hampered by the change in environment tactics and so on and that will count against you in a real confrontation.

This is why sparring does not prepare you for the street and is actually detremental. That you have to train in the environment you will fight and in the manner you will fight.

Kata on the other hand is different because we like it better?


----------



## MJS (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We are missing a premis that is part of my OP.



OK...I'll have to go back and re-read it. 



> In a fight you will revert to your training due to stress. The example made was that cop. Who trained a gun disarm and handed back the gun. Then disarmed a guy on the street gave the guy the gun back and was shot.



Agreed.  That is why when we train weapon disarms, after we gain control, and the tech is done, we don't hand it back.  Fortunately, many of the people I train with, are from a LE background, so they don't make those mistakes, as they've learned from the examples that you gave. 



> This shows that if you train in a method that is unrealistic like in a gym or dojo you will be hampered by the change in environment tactics and so on and that will count against you in a real confrontation.



OK, so where are you supposed to train then?  Sorry, but for me, it's not a matter of whether it's a BJJ/MMA gym, or a dojo.  It's up to the individual and what they want to get out of their training.  Is it possible, that the techs that you'd learn in a traditional dojo, are outdated, impractical, etc.? Sure.  So, it's then up to the student to either leave that art, or seek out additional training.  I've said countless times, that the ground defenses in Kenpo suck.  Yes, I said it.  I'm not a Kenpo nutrider.  Sure, maybe my teacher didn't know certain things, maybe this, maybe that.  Sorry, we can't all be privy to the best of the best.  BUT...given what I said, I sought out training from people who did BJJ, to help my ground game.  I'm not interested in learning 50 different escapes, locks, chokes, or even testing for rank or competing.  I'm interested in learning some basic defense, drilling the **** out of it, and if I find myself on the ground, I might stand a better chance, compared to if I didn't have that training at all.  Against a solid MMA/BJJ guy, sure, I'd get stomped anyways, but that goes for anything.  



> This is why sparring does not prepare you for the street and is actually detremental. That you have to train in the environment you will fight and in the manner you will fight.



Wait...I thought you were for sparring?  Sparring, like anything, IMO, has it's pros and cons.  I enjoy it, but I don't rely on that as my sole learning tool for effective street SD.



> Kata on the other hand is different because we like it better?



LOL...like I said...I do kata, because it's in all the arts I do.  I never said I was a kata fanatic.   I also never said it was useless either.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 14, 2014)

MJS said:


> OK...I'll have to go back and re-read it.
> 
> ...
> Wait...I thought you were for sparring?  Sparring, like anything, IMO, has it's pros and cons.  I enjoy it, but I don't rely on that as my sole learning tool for effective street SD.



I think you're missing the context of drop bear's original complaint. I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread, since I think many people responding have missed the explanation:



			
				Tony Dismukes said:
			
		

> While I don't agree with the confrontational way drop bear phrased this post, I do understand where he's coming from.  I'll put it in the context of the thread it spun off of and hopefully be less confrontational about it:
> 
> Kong Soo Do claimed that sparring is a suboptimal training tool for self-defense because it does not include a host of real world considerations: de-escalation, escape & evasion, environmental factors, improvised weapons, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> ...





			
				Tony Dismukes said:
			
		

> If drop bear doesn't object, I'll reiterate my interpretation of what he was getting at. I can see how his point could be missed by anyone who wasn't following the other thread in its entirety.
> 
> I don't believe this thread was intended as a diss on kata in any way.
> 
> ...



Without this context it gets confusing to understand what drop bear is getting at.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm quoting Tony because he sums it up pretty well, and read Drop Bears premise the same way that I did.


Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't believe this thread was intended as a diss on kata in any way.
> 
> It's fine to practice kata for whatever benefits you feel it brings for self-defense.
> 
> ...



So having said that using another man's words (thank you Tony), I think that there is a major point that is being missed and/or overlooked.

Solo kata are not designed to do the same thing that sparring does, so to compare them pointless. 

A martial arts style is a language. It contains structure, grammatical rules, and vocabulary. Comparing kata to sparring is like comparing grammar & vocabulary to creative writing, oratory, debate, and dialogue; they don't do the same thing, thus neither is superior to the other.

Kata is a method of teaching the grammar & vocabulary of a style language that you are learning/have learned. Even partnered kata. Even if you aren't pulling bunkai from the kata (KKW TKD does not). 

So, Kata is a means of transmission from teacher to student the principles and techniques of the art. 

Bunkai, one step sparring, waza/gisul, ukemi/nak beop/rolling & falling, and any other exercise that is done to expand on the principles and techniques of the art, are just that; exercises to broaden and deepen your understanding of the principles and techniques of the art. Just like learning a language, numerous exercises are used to train in specific things and to help you expand your knowledge and usage of those things.

If kata is the structure, principles and techniques of the art, and bunkai/exercises based on the content of the kata is the grammar & vocabulary and writing exercises of the style language, then sparring is debate and dialogue with others in the style language that you have learned.

Debate and dialogue are free flowing rather than pre-arranged by the dictates of the art and the teaching preferences of the instructor, and require a partner, be it an audience or an individual. Now, you're taking the principles and techniques of the language and applying them to a particular end.

Sparring in the studio is dialogue. Competitive sparring under a specific rule set is debate. Self defense is things like haggling with a salesman, arguing with another person outside of a formal debate setting, arbitrating disputes between two people, or defending one's self against charges.

But in order to debate, dialogue, or argue in a language, you need to know how to write and speak in that language. And you prepare for debate differently than you prepare to defend yourself against charges, both of which are different from dialogue, even though the skills overlap and the linguistic principles underlying each are the same.

And what where does making your own kata and forms competition fit into my linguistic analogy? Performing kata competitively is oratory. Making your own kata is creative writing. Making your own kata and performing it competitively is speech writing and oratory.

That is my take on the whole topic.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK your question is a really weird one so I decided to let you off the hook with it. But if you want an explanation of why your question is silly. You have fabricated two outcomes based on your own bias expecting me to have to choose one. I don't really have to choose either or answer your question at all.



I've posted both of your comments so you really can't claim they're fabricated...you stated them.  No, you don't have to answer the question as it's pretty obvious that you're dishonest in what you've stated.  Too be blunt, you lied twice.  That speaks to your character.  

As for your grammar, it needs to be improved.  The truth sometimes stings.  

In regards to the fallacy of your OP, I've already stated your error.  

Now, since I detest people that lie, I'll step out of the thread now as your not worth the back and forth.  

Have a nice day.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 14, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've posted both of your comments so you really can't claim they're fabricated...you stated them.  No, you don't have to answer the question as it's pretty obvious that you're dishonest in what you've stated.  Too be blunt, you lied twice.  That speaks to your character.
> 
> As for your grammar, it needs to be improved.  The truth sometimes stings.
> 
> ...



OK see you.bye!


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 14, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've posted both of your comments so you really can't claim they're fabricated...you stated them.  No, you don't have to answer the question as it's pretty obvious that you're dishonest in what you've stated.  Too be blunt, you lied twice.  That speaks to your character.
> ...
> Now, since I detest people that lie, I'll step out of the thread now as your not worth the back and forth.



I believe what we have here is a failure to communicate.  I've read every word both you and drop bear have posted in this thread and the other one (repeatedly in some cases). I do not see anywhere that he has lied. I would suggest that if you are reading what he says as a lie, then you may be misinterpreting his words. Perhaps re-reading with an eye towards understanding the other person's point rather than proving them wrong might be helpful.



Kong Soo Do said:


> In regards to the fallacy of your OP, I've already stated your error.



Maybe you've stated his error, but I was curious regarding the same point and I'm not understanding your explanation of said error.  I'm told that I'm reasonably good at figuring out what people are saying, so if I'm not getting it then perhaps some other folks are missing it as well. Would you mind looking at my previous post just above and helping me to get your point? In my second quote I laid out a possible idea of what you might be getting at, but you would need to fill in the details for me.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 14, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm quoting Tony because he sums it up pretty well, and read Drop Bears premise the same way that I did.
> 
> 
> So having said that using another man's words (thank you Tony), I think that there is a major point that is being missed and/or overlooked.
> ...




Yeah you need a range of different training devices and different training methods each one teaches you more about the other.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Yeah you need a range of different training devices and different training methods each one teaches you more about the other.


And like a language, there is more than one way of teaching the principles and techniques of an art; not all martial arts use "kata" as in arts like karate, but have other ways of transmitting the information.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 14, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And like a language, there is more than one way of teaching the principles and techniques of an art; not all martial arts use "kata" as in arts like karate, but have other ways of transmitting the information.




Yeah we have video files of as much of our stuff as we can. Because collating a system is hard. You loose bits of it all the time. I can see why kata was used.

I am not against the concept of kata other than personal preference. And that does not really make an argument.

The other side of this as an overflow from the op. I am not against combat scenarios. But not instead of sparring. They teach two different things.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Yeah we have video files of as much of our stuff as we can. Because collating a system is hard. You loose bits of it all the time. I can see why kata was used.


Definitely. Some kata are also arrange in to patterns of Chinese characters and in the case of KKW TKD, the palgwe (which is where the names of the Palgwe and Taegeuk pumsae come from) so as to communicate non technical elements of the art.



drop bear said:


> I am not against the concept of kata other than personal preference. And that does not really make an argument.



The only real dislike that I have of kata is not kata itself, but its use as filler in some schools.




drop bear said:


> The other side of this as an overflow from the op. I am not against combat scenarios. But not instead of sparring. They teach two different things.


No argument there.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 14, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Definitely. Some kata are also arrange in to patterns of Chinese characters and in the case of KKW TKD, the palgwe (which is where the names of the Palgwe and Taegeuk pumsae come from) so as to communicate non technical elements of the art.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's this use I think that sets so many people against it, they see it as useless which of course it is if you are just doing it to perform or without any explanation of Bunkai, Being told to do it because 'we've always done it' isn't good enough, in fact that expression is probably one of the most annoying phrase in the English language because it's used in so many situations to avoid changing things.


----------



## K-man (Oct 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We are missing a premis that is part of my OP.
> 
> In a fight you will revert to your training due to stress. The example made was that cop. Who trained a gun disarm and handed back the gun. Then disarmed a guy on the street gave the guy the gun back and was shot.
> 
> ...


As you can see, kata means different things to different people. People use kata in whatever way it meets their needs. In some cases it may not even have anything to do with fighting but that is for another thread.

I like Daniel's reply. I don't necessarily agree with all he wrote in terms of his understanding and my understanding but he is not wrong from where I sit. We are both right in our own understanding.

I think from years of discussion on this board *Tez* is the only one that actually trains similarly to me, thanks to Iain Abernethy's teaching.

We had a very small class last night so we played around with some concepts we are discussing. That's the advantage when you have your own school.  My trading partner for this exercise was a green belt with several years experience. First up I asked him to attack with a left punch. (He is left handed) My preferred defence to that attack, whether it be jab or straight is straight out of kata bunkai and I have trained it many times. It works on both sides, it's simple and it's effective. Two strikes, partner on the ground both times, like clockwork. (These were fast punches btw.)

Next, I asked my partner to just attack me with punching as he would in a fight and I would defend using the same moves out of the kata. I got punched out of existence. There was absolutely no way I could use the kata. Worse still, by trying to use the kata, I was getting hit, something that doesn't normally happen with random attacks. So what went wrong? Why wasn't my bunkai working?

Finally, I asked my parter to attack again with the random punching. Fraction of a second later he was on the ground and I had actually used the very technique I was trying to use previously. Yet previously it wasn't working. Why? What had changed so dramatically in the short time between the attacks?

Obviously in the first scenario I was waiting for his attack. At the first sign of movement I was off the line and in his face. Simple, done it thousands of times. Second scenario. It didn't even look like working. Explanation, I was looking for the opportunity to enter with the kata technique fixated on doing the kata bunkai. Two things failed me. Because I was looking for a specific punch I was pretty much watching his hands and waiting for the right moment to do my magic. The moment never arrived. I was being reactive rather than proactive and he had no difficulty hitting me.

In the final scenario I had no idea what I was going to do. When the attack came, I parried instinctively, instinctively moved off the line, instinctively punched him and stepped though taking him to the ground. Pretty much over in less than a second. It was the exact bunkai I had tried to do earlier but this time I hadn't tried to do it. I fought as I had trained.

I have a saying. "_Learn the technique, train the technique, forget the technique, then use the technique."_ The technique must become your instinctive response.
:asian:


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 14, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> In free sparring against someone of comparable skill and experience and going flat out you get to test your attack and defense against resistance under significant pressure, so again no fundamental difference other than the level of contact (it is generally a lot safer to get choked out and submitted than it is to get punched in the head and kicked in the groin repeatedly).
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that video shows is that there is a huge difference between a beginner who is self taught and a high level practitioner of an art. That is how it should be. I can guarantee you if a beginner who was self taught in their back yard walked in off the street and I sparred with them flat out they wouldn't stand a chance either.



There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.

Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.


----------



## K-man (Oct 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.
> 
> Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.


True! We should all have learned BJJ!


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> True! We should all have learned BJJ!



It wouldn't hurt.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.
> 
> Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.



Okay, Hanzou, I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I understand your crusades in favor of live sparring and against crappy examples of anti-grappling because I pretty much agree with them even if I don't insist on raising the subjects at every opportunity. This post just sounds like a generic evidence-free bash against karate & TKD.

Yes, there have been situations where karate & TKD black belts have come off poorly against challengers off the street. There are other situations where the challengers have come off poorly. There are other situations where both parties have had a good time and learned from each other.

There are some karate & TKD black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. There are other karate & TKD black belts who could easily kick both your butt and mine and the butts of many people much tougher than either of us. There are a host of factors leading to the difference between those groups. Did you have some point concerning those factors relevant to the current discussion?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> It wouldn't hurt.



If it doesn't hurt, you're doing it wrong.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.
> 
> Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.



As far as I know it has never happened in any of our schools.


----------



## K-man (Oct 14, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> As far as I know it has never happened in any of our schools.


I've never heard of it happening here. 

Hang about! I did see something like that in Karate Kid? 

And of  course, the Boztepe/Cheung one became famous or infamous, but that wasn't Karate or TKD.
:asian:


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 14, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, Hanzou, I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I understand your crusades in favor of live sparring and against crappy examples of anti-grappling because I pretty much agree with them even if I don't insist on raising the subjects at every opportunity. This post just sounds like a generic evidence-free bash against karate & TKD.
> 
> Yes, there have been situations where karate & TKD black belts have come off poorly against challengers off the street. There are other situations where the challengers have come off poorly. There are other situations where both parties have had a good time and learned from each other.
> 
> There are some karate & TKD black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. There are other karate & TKD black belts who could easily kick both your butt and mine and the butts of many people much tougher than either of us. There are a host of factors leading to the difference between those groups. Did you have some point concerning those factors relevant to the current discussion?



Not really. I was just relaying a few personal experiences of my time in TKD and Karate. 



K-man said:


> I've never heard of it happening here.
> 
> Hang about! I did see something like that in Karate Kid?
> 
> ...



Boztepe/Cheung was one of the best grappling matches I've seen.


----------



## Cirdan (Oct 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.
> 
> Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.



Video or it did not happen


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 14, 2014)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

As occasionally happens, we see emotions rising and snippy comments being made. 
Please remember where you are. This is MartialTalk: A Friendly Martial Arts Community.
So please. Keep the conversation polite and professional.

Thank you.
Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator


----------



## drop bear (Oct 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> True! We should all have learned BJJ!



We had a Brazil top team guy pretty much start our MMA club. And the dude was fresh off the boat from Rio. And we also have really good karate here.

Anyway at the time we were trying to get some inter club sparring going. But it took a lot of convincing to explain to our coach it was not going to be a dojo storm. Just an open mat.

It is a Brazil thing rather than a bjj thing that one.

By the way out local karate recently took away a national title so a shout out to Mr thighs thruppy.
National title is 19 years in the making | Whitsunday Times


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 15, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.
> 
> Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.



There was also Kimo (who only had back yard brawling experience at the time) who fought Royce Gracie and even though Gracie won he came off more beat up.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 15, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Not really. I was just relaying a few personal experiences of my time in TKD and Karate.



Which is extremely limited in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## MJS (Oct 16, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think you're missing the context of drop bear's original complaint. I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread, since I think many people responding have missed the explanation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, OK...well, now that I read that, yes, it makes more sense to me.  Thank you!  

FWIW, I think that having those things that were mentioned, ie: de-escalation, escape, evasion, etc, are key elements, in SD.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2014)

MJS said:


> Ah, OK...well, now that I read that, yes, it makes more sense to me.  Thank you!
> 
> FWIW, I think that having those things that were mentioned, ie: de-escalation, escape, evasion, etc, are key elements, in SD.



Super tricky to find a system of that that works though. Deescalation works because there is a real risk in a fight. Training has to come from that and can't be lab tested as easily as technique.

Deescalation trained in a gym is usually training in ambush and counter ambush.

So saying deescalation is good is one thing saying you train a viable system of it is another.


----------



## MJS (Oct 16, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Super tricky to find a system of that that works though. Deescalation works because there is a real risk in a fight. Training has to come from that and can't be lab tested as easily as technique.
> 
> Deescalation trained in a gym is usually training in ambush and counter ambush.
> 
> So saying deescalation is good is one thing saying you train a viable system of it is another.



Thing is, those aspects of SD are rarely taught in the average martial arts class.  They cover what I call the 'during' phase...that's it.  They show you what to do when an attack is happening, but rarely talk about the "before' or the 'after', which are just as important.  These things are not taught either because the inst. doesnt know what to do, or because they feel they're not important.  Fortunately, there are people out there, that are capable of teaching this.  I train under some of them.  There are people on this forum that teach it.  They're out there.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2014)

MJS said:


> Thing is, those aspects of SD are rarely taught in the average martial arts class.  They cover what I call the 'during' phase...that's it.  They show you what to do when an attack is happening, but rarely talk about the "before' or the 'after', which are just as important.  These things are not taught either because the inst. doesnt know what to do, or because they feel they're not important.  Fortunately, there are people out there, that are capable of teaching this.  I train under some of them.  There are people on this forum that teach it.  They're out there.




Fair enough. What system of deescalation and awareness do you recommend?


----------



## MJS (Oct 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Fair enough. What system of deescalation and awareness do you recommend?



There isn't a system, per se, that specifically teaches this.  It's not like I can say to you, "Go train Kenpo.  They'll teach you a number of de-escalation/awareness methods."  IMO, you're more likely to see this stuff taught by the RBSD guys or folks that are less traditional, in addition to those with a LE background.


----------



## K-man (Oct 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Fair enough. What system of deescalation and awareness do you recommend?


De-escalation is really common sense although I'm sure there are multitudinous studies on the subject seeing it is relevant in so many fields. One that is quite good ... 

Verbal De-escalation Techniques for Defusing or Talking Down an Explosive Situation - National Association of Social Workers

Awareness is mainly taught using the system taught by a police trainer called Jeff Cooper. Variations of 'Cooper's Colours' are in most standard references now. 

Cooper?s colors: A simple system for situational awareness

Recently I read this article which someone on MT may have posted which I thought was very interesting.

Arousal and Performance: How Stress and Fear Affect Tactical Performance | The Art of Manliness

:asian:


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Oct 17, 2014)

Tony and I have been talking via PM.  I'm going to address his questions here in the thread since it is applicable.



> To restate my question again in yet another way:
> 
> You can say kata is valuable even though it doesn't include de-escalation, or improvised weapons, and it's not normally practiced on stairs or in a car. It's intended for a different purpose - it contains concept and applications which can be broken down and applied in a variety of situations.
> 
> ...



*Kata*

Kata can be a valuable training tool in many martial arts.  Or it can be a class filler and what many consider a colossal waste of time.  Why the two extremes?  In my opinion it is how kata is viewed.  Kata can be viewed peripherally as a set of movement consisting of blocks, punches and kicks.  For some martial artists, this is perhaps all they need.  For example, if the martial artist is focused on sport competition then generally blocks, punches and kicks are all they need for those competitions (generally speaking for those martial arts that utilize kata and then compete using those skills).  There is another view of kata as I described on page 9 of this thread.  That view is that each movement sequence is in fact a principle that demonstrates something beyond the block, punch, kick mode of training.  My purpose is not to debate between the two in this post, only that these views are two that exist.  This second view is the one I espouse due to my training and research.  As I detailed on page 9, the opening movement in Pinan Shodan can be viewed as a shoulder lock specifically and as a principle of locking.  This lock can be applied, as per the kata, from standing either from a punch or grapple and also applied on the ground or position of disadvantage.  

This is the function of the kata as a training tool.  It effectively catalogs a series of movements, application of those movements and principles that those movements can further be expanded into.  It is a training tool that can be passed on effectively from instructor to student.  Kata does not address the additional factors I detailed in the sparring kata because they aren't a function of the kata.  

*Bunkai*

Kata can be broken down into bunkai.  These can be drills using the specific movements demonstrated in the kata or they can be movements using the principle demonstrated in the kata.  Again using the opening movement in Pinan Shodan, you can drill the lock from a punch defense, from a grapple as per the kata or ou can use in on the ground or a different angle using the locking principle demonstrated and then translated to other positions.  This is the function of bunkai as a training tool.

How the bunkai drill is developed depends upon the goal of that training day as well as the experience of the student training the bunkai.  It could be an individual drill using by rote to stress the movement/principle to someone just learning.  This type of drill does not address the additional factors I detailed in the sparring thread because they aren't a function of this type of drill.  Or, a drill could be set up using a series of bunkai as I described in the sparring thread i.e. scenario based training.  This would utilize the additional factors I've detailed in the sparring thread because it is a function of the training.

*Sparring*

Sparring can have many definitions.  I was careful to detail my definition in the sparring thread.  It consists of two people, and only two people abiding by a specific rule set until a specific goal has been reached i.e. a point has been scored or a submission applied or some such other goal.  What is typically thought of as sport sparring.  This type of sparring does not use the additional factors I detailed in the sparring thread.  For a sport related art, where the goal of the training is competition, those additional factors are NOT needed or even desirable.  For an art, that has self defense as a goal, those additional factors are applicable because they apply to real world confrontations/altercations.  

From a *self defense *perspective...

Kata can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind.  It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you only train kata but never go into a hands on scenario that mimics (as closely as is safely possible) real world conditions.  

Bunkai can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind.  It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you train only 'by rote' without mimicking real world conditions.  Two people doing bunkai on each other trains a specific movement or application, it does not train you for the totality of a real world altercation.  

Sparring can be an effective training tool if used with this goal in mind.  It takes 'by rote' to the next level by allowing it to free flow during movement.  It is sub-optimal if used without consideration to real world altercations i.e. you only train 'sport style sparring' without mimicking real world conditions.  

Each can be a valuable 'part' of the equation, but by themselves do NOT prepare a student for the realities of an altercation/confrontation.  Each has it's place in the curriculum but alone do not suffice for the totality of what can and does happen.  

Kata, bunkai and sparring doesn't teach a student to de-escalate a situation before it begins.  Neither do they teach escape or evasion or and of the other factors I've detailed multiple times.  Therefore each can be a valuable training tool but are sub-optimal in-and-of-themselves.  This is where scenario based training comes into play.  

Thus if you train in kata (as described above using the 'deeper' applications) you are doing well in having this as a training method.  It isn't the whole of self defense training.  If you drill bunkai by rote you are doing well in having this as a training method.  If you spar you are doing well by having this as a training method.  But none are complete until you have a free flowing drill (scenario) that can/does have some/many/all of the factors that can/are present in real life.  The scenario based training method puts it all together.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 17, 2014)

Thanks for the clarification, Kong!

I'll summarize your response in order to make sure I am understanding correctly:

Both sparring and kata are both valuable training methods for self-defense _if _they are used correctly _for that purpose_, but are suboptimal if not.

Neither training method covers _all_ the elements necessary for self-defense. Scenario training is the place where you can take the lessons from sparring, kata, or both and apply them along with a host of other important considerations which are not addressed in either of the two.

Is that an accurate summation? If so, I think most of us would have no disagreement.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 17, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Thanks for the clarification, Kong!
> 
> I'll summarize your response in order to make sure I am understanding correctly:
> 
> ...



I suppose that would sum it up nicely.  

If you don't practice de-escalation skills you're not likely to be successful with them.

If you don't practice escape, evasion or use of weapons/improvised weapons you're not likely to be successful with them.

If the extent of training is inside of a school, using a specific rule set that can't be deviated from your less likely to be successful against someone that doesn't subscribe or adhere to your rule set.  

All the 'little' details aren't really that little.  They can make a huge difference in the outcome of a violent altercation.  Thinking that you'll 'rise to the occasion' while under duress/stress and/or possibly injured isn't a very sound plan.  That's why the saying has been around for decades, 'you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training'.  And there's another apt saying, 'garbage in, garbage out'.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2014)

There is really real escalation and deescalation in sparring though. That is where an honest emotional response will occur.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 18, 2014)

drop bear said:


> There is really real escalation and deescalation in sparring though. That is where an honest emotional response will occur.



I'm sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?



http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=py8zOCnw2Ew

Especially if the guy is prepping for a fight,hasn't eaten and is being unnecessarily beat up on. There have been some temper tantys thrown.

I will go into this a bit more. Deescalation was raised in another thread and this post (edited) summed it up pretty well.

Let me help you out here. All that stuff that you just wrote can be summed up in one sentence......"Don't be an idiot" You don't need color codes for threats. You don't need to study the rituals of violence. You don't need to pretend you're some expert in the realities of the street. Give us a gosh darn break, Marc Macyoung. You just need to not be an cheeky bugger and use some common sense.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2014)

drop bear said:


> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=py8zOCnw2Ew
> 
> Especially if the guy is prepping for a fight,hasn't eaten and is being unnecessarily beat up on. There have been some temper tantys thrown.
> 
> ...



Now because I can't change the font back.

I don't know about your gym but in ours the sort of guy who starts fights will get panel beaten until he is either fixed or leaves. It is the nature of the training.

Of course in mma it is very common to have exactly that sort of guy walk through the door.

We were thinking of that as our next promotional.

"Come do MMA we will make you slightly less of a duchebag."


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Now because I can't change the font back.
> 
> I don't know about your gym but in ours the sort of guy who starts fights will get panel beaten until he is either fixed or leaves. It is the nature of the training.
> 
> ...



it might be the type you get but it happens rarely here, those who start fights on the whole tend not to want to actually fight MMA, of course they will tell you they could if they wanted to but the truth is those who fight MMA aren't the type of people who start fights outside. MMA fighters are those who want to compete, to challenge themselves and who are happy to have rules and a referee. They train, learn and train some more. The thug type doesn't come anywhere near an MMA gym. We've never had to 'beat' anyone up, we've never had people start fights either in the gym of at a fight night. Those who are liable to fight at a show are those who fancy themselves as hard and will kick off either in the crowd or the car park. It's never the fighters. Perpetuating this thug image of MMA people does us all a dis-service.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 18, 2014)

You made this statement.  



drop bear said:


> There is really real escalation and deescalation in sparring though. That is where an honest emotional response will occur.



You were asked to clarify.  You posted this video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=py8zOCnw2Ew

I watched the video.  I didn't see any de-escalation at all.  Do you know what de-escalation means?


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## MJS (Oct 18, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Tony and I have been talking via PM.  I'm going to address his questions here in the thread since it is applicable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree.  I've seen some schools where it's both...a useful tool, and a filler.  A filler, mainly because the inst. has no clue as to what the meaning of the kata is, so everyone is a robot, aimlessly going through the moves.  That, IMO, is the most important thing about kata...understanding what you're doing.  It really is amazing, what you can find, if you know what you're doing.

*



			Bunkai
		
Click to expand...

*


> Kata can be broken down into bunkai.  These can be drills using the specific movements demonstrated in the kata or they can be movements using the principle demonstrated in the kata.  Again using the opening movement in Pinan Shodan, you can drill the lock from a punch defense, from a grapple as per the kata or ou can use in on the ground or a different angle using the locking principle demonstrated and then translated to other positions.  This is the function of bunkai as a training tool.
> 
> How the bunkai drill is developed depends upon the goal of that training day as well as the experience of the student training the bunkai.  It could be an individual drill using by rote to stress the movement/principle to someone just learning.  This type of drill does not address the additional factors I detailed in the sparring thread because they aren't a function of this type of drill.  Or, a drill could be set up using a series of bunkai as I described in the sparring thread i.e. scenario based training.  This would utilize the additional factors I've detailed in the sparring thread because it is a function of the training.



Yes, I've done this in class before.  I've taken a portion of a kata, had the class pair up, and explore it on their own for a while, before coming back as a group, and sharing what they found.  I did that, because I wanted them to think on their own.  Spoon feeding them all the time, isn't helping them learn. IMO, there comes a time, when you, as a teacher, need to start prepping them to get kicked out of the nest, so to speak, and make them start finding things and figuring things out on their own.  

*



			Sparring
		
Click to expand...

*


> Sparring can have many definitions.  I was careful to detail my definition in the sparring thread.  It consists of two people, and only two people abiding by a specific rule set until a specific goal has been reached i.e. a point has been scored or a submission applied or some such other goal.  What is typically thought of as sport sparring.  This type of sparring does not use the additional factors I detailed in the sparring thread.  For a sport related art, where the goal of the training is competition, those additional factors are NOT needed or even desirable.  For an art, that has self defense as a goal, those additional factors are applicable because they apply to real world confrontations/altercations.
> 
> From a *self defense *perspective...
> 
> ...



IMO, sparring can be looked at in a number of ways.  I'd say it all depends on how you train it.  

But, all that aside, I do think this was a very good, well thought out post!


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> it might be the type you get but it happens rarely here, those who start fights on the whole tend not to want to actually fight MMA, of course they will tell you they could if they wanted to but the truth is those who fight MMA aren't the type of people who start fights outside. MMA fighters are those who want to compete, to challenge themselves and who are happy to have rules and a referee. They train, learn and train some more. The thug type doesn't come anywhere near an MMA gym. We've never had to 'beat' anyone up, we've never had people start fights either in the gym of at a fight night. Those who are liable to fight at a show are those who fancy themselves as hard and will kick off either in the crowd or the car park. It's never the fighters. Perpetuating this thug image of MMA people does us all a dis-service.



Hardly consider it a thug image.

Fighters during a camp get thrashed. There are some really un fun bits. There is no getting around that.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> You made this statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was escalation. It clarifies my point about real emotional response. Yes I know what de escalation means.


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## WaterGal (Oct 18, 2014)

drop bear said:


> That was escalation. It clarifies my point about real emotional response. Yes I know what de escalation means.



Maybe I shouldn't jump into this, but do you have an example of de-escalation being practiced during a sparring match?  That's not something I've ever seen before, except in the context of a ref/teacher/coach calming down someone that's gotten over-emotional and started taking the sparring personally.  It seems like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how that would work in a competitive context.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Hardly consider it a thug image.
> 
> Fighters during a camp get thrashed. There are some really un fun bits. There is no getting around that.



That's not what you said however, nothing to do with camp, you said it is common for the sort of guy who starts fights to come in through the door.


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## K-man (Oct 18, 2014)

MJS said:


> Yes, I've done this in class before.  I've taken a portion of a kata, had the class pair up, and explore it on their own for a while, before coming back as a group, and sharing what they found.  I* did that, because I wanted them to think on their own.*  Spoon feeding them all the time, isn't helping them learn. IMO, there comes a time, when you, as a teacher, need to start prepping them to get kicked out of the nest, so to speak, and make them start finding things and figuring things out on their own.


And herin lies the gem. This is why the bunkai is so important. It is a system of fighting that works for you, not necessarily someone else. Masaji Taira is probably the number one in the world when it comes to Goju bunkai. He told us he was never taught bunkai but was told by Eiichi Miyazato to 'go and explore the kata'. Now he shares what he has discovered. He doesn't teach what he knows as the only alternative. He shows multiple techniques for the one kata move and encourages you to do what works for you. 

Great post!
:asian:


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Maybe I shouldn't jump into this, but do you have an example of de-escalation being practiced during a sparring match?  That's not something I've ever seen before, except in the context of a ref/teacher/coach calming down someone that's gotten over-emotional and started taking the sparring personally.  It seems like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how that would work in a competitive context.



That would be exactly where. You can't really false train it unless you are drilling tactics. And the best tactics come through sales courses. There the ones who have a real vested interest in convincing people to do stuff. 

Otherwise you get this which can be a bit men...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpi2XDeN3bc
By the way dismissive not submissive worked better.


But your behaviour that sets people off during training is the behaviour that kicks off fights. Don't act like an idiot and most of your de escalation is handled.

This coming from someone who does this for a living.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> That's not what you said however, nothing to do with camp, you said it is common for the sort of guy who starts fights to come in through the door.




It is. Why do people learn martial arts? Self defence.

Why do they have to learn self defence? Because they are getting in to fights.

OK not everybody,and not in your club. But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.


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## Steve (Oct 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> It is. Why do people learn martial arts? Self defence.
> 
> Why do they have to learn self defence? Because they are getting in to fights.
> 
> OK not everybody,and not in your club. But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.



I've said many times that, for my money, the perfect wingman in a self defense situation is a competent MMAist who isn't a jerk and has decent situational awareness.  Mma is negotiable, but the last two are not.  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> It is. Why do people learn martial arts? Self defence.
> 
> Why do they have to learn self defence? Because they are getting in to fights.
> 
> OK not everybody,and not in your club. But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.



The type who are always getting into fights think they are good enough and don't have to have martial arts lol, that's the problem with them. If you get people who want to start fights in to train and you think that is normal it may explain a lot of your thinking as regards martial arts on here.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> It is. Why do people learn martial arts? Self defence.
> 
> Why do they have to learn self defence? Because they are getting in to fights.
> 
> OK not everybody,and not in your club. But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.



People learn martial arts for a myriad of reason, self defense is one of them.  They learn self defense to defend themselves, not because they are getting into fights.  People that always get into fights have poor communication/socialization skills.  A good martial artist, that trains for self defense, knows how to avoid most fights and only defend themselves when all non-force options have failed.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> People learn martial arts for a myriad of reason, self defense is one of them.  They learn self defense to defend themselves, not because they are getting into fights.  People that always get into fights have poor communication/socialization skills.  A good martial artist, that trains for self defense, knows how to avoid most fights and only defend themselves when all non-force options have failed.



I think if you are getting people into a gym that say they are learning martial arts to learn to defend themselves because they are always getting into fights they may well be dissembling, they enjoy the fighting and actually rather than defend themselves want to be able to fight more 'efficiently' , they don't want to stop and that I think may have an impact on the attitude of the other training in that gym. It becomes much more focussed on things other than just martial arts for defence, rather it becomes that much more 'macho'.


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## Buka (Oct 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.



Although I'm taking that statement out of context to the entire discussion - that's brilliant.


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> The type who are always getting into fights think they are good enough and don't have to have martial arts lol, that's the problem with them. If you get people who want to start fights in to train and you think that is normal it may explain a lot of your thinking as regards martial arts on here.



We are not that judgemental regarding who we get in I suppose. Everybody has their baggage.


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2014)

Buka said:


> Although I'm taking that statement out of context to the entire discussion - that's brilliant.




Honestly I think you are the only person taking that statement in context.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We are not that judgemental regarding who we get in I suppose. Everybody has their baggage.




It's not a case of being judgemental but a case of who you have as students influencing your training. I imagine women students would find a macho, in it for the 'street' fighting atmosphere very off putting. It can alter how and what you teach as well. The mentality of those who want to train so they can fight better outside competition is going to be very different from those who want to fighting within it. It will influence what techniques you teach and what defences you teach, it certainly won't include kata and Bunkai for instance, sparring will be mini wars. It is a practical consideration.


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> It's not a case of being judgemental but a case of who you have as students influencing your training. I imagine women students would find a macho, in it for the 'street' fighting atmosphere very off putting. It can alter how and what you teach as well. The mentality of those who want to train so they can fight better outside competition is going to be very different from those who want to fighting within it. It will influence what techniques you teach and what defences you teach, it certainly won't include kata and Bunkai for instance, sparring will be mini wars. It is a practical consideration.




I don't think you can get too worked up about people doing martial arts for the wrong reasons. Most people do martial arts for the wrong reasons at first.

The best you can do is steer them in the right direction once they get there. Mostly we try to help people not condemn them.

Otherwise our gym is a fight gym in a very confronting sport. It is not for everybody and does not pretend to be.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I don't think you can get too worked up about people doing martial arts for the wrong reasons. Most people do martial arts for the wrong reasons at first.
> 
> The best you can do is steer them in the right direction once they get there. Mostly we try to help people not condemn them.
> 
> Otherwise our gym is a fight gym in a very confronting sport. It is not for everybody and does not pretend to be.



You have missed my point, it's not about whether martial arts are done for the right or wrong reasons, nor trying to steer them one way or another. It's about the training in the club, that depends on the focus of those wanting to train. Training for a competition is different from training for self defence, if they are coming to train for non competitive fights 'outside' they aren't going to want to train points sparring, it's about training methods nothing to do with morality. It also colours how you see kata, sparring etc so perhaps you don't understand the uses of kata etc.
I'm not sure you understand what an MMA gym is either, despite what people think MMA is not a 'confronting' sport, it is a sport that demands professional training, focused on fitness and techniques, tactics and cage control, there's no time to mess around with those who merely want to come to appear 'tuff'. The idea is to train those that want to be MMA fighters, not thugs, brawls shouldn't break out. The atmosphere in gyms I've been in has been professional and hard working with respectful students and knowledgeable coaches, brawlers would go somewhere else.
This is how they should look, one of the best here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSeVBAc4kYo#t=22


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> You have missed my point, it's not about whether martial arts are done for the right or wrong reasons, nor trying to steer them one way or another. It's about the training in the club, that depends on the focus of those wanting to train. Training for a competition is different from training for self defence, if they are coming to train for non competitive fights 'outside' they aren't going to want to train points sparring, it's about training methods nothing to do with morality. It also colours how you see kata, sparring etc so perhaps you don't understand the uses of kata etc.
> I'm not sure you understand what an MMA gym is either, despite what people think MMA is not a 'confronting' sport, it is a sport that demands professional training, focused on fitness and techniques, tactics and cage control, there's no time to mess around with those who merely want to come to appear 'tuff'. The idea is to train those that want to be MMA fighters, not thugs, brawls shouldn't break out. The atmosphere in gyms I've been in has been professional and hard working with respectful students and knowledgeable coaches, brawlers would go somewhere else.
> This is how they should look, one of the best here. Tour of Next Generation MMA Liverpool - YouTube




Training for self defence is training for non competitive fights out side the ring. That is the training for defence sales pitch. With the no rules the weapons and the illegal moves. Why the constant harp about the street if people are avoiding fights? There wouldn't be all this is my martial art street ready? Nonsense there would just be train because it will make you better through hard work.

It has a lot to do with morality. And developing a reasonable head on your shoulders under stress. Not about constantly condemning people. You gym sounds mean and non inclusive. At some point you have to accept people as they are to a point.

and training kata does not guarantee you will not be a duchebag.

Of course MMA is confronting. It is a full contact sport. At some point someone is going to punch you hard in the face. At some point you will be tired or angry or hungry or scared. And yet these are things you have to train yourself to deal with to be a better person. Training is good for you but training past your comfort zone is what makes a fighter.

Why do you think people want to fight MMA? There is no money in it. It is not as cool as football. And drinking at the pub is easier.  Some people like to fight.

Now connecting that to a person who likes to prey on people in street fights is increadably judgemental. You may as well suggest all MMA is thuggery and that is not the case. People are complicated. And have all sorts of nuanced motivations. Seriously you need to give them more of a break.

That gym seems nice by the way.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Training for self defence is training for non competitive fights out side the ring.



Fighting and self defense are two entirely different things, they only look the same to those who do not understand the difference.



drop bear said:


> That is the training for defence sales pitch. With the no rules the weapons and the illegal moves. Why the constant harp about the street if people are avoiding fights? There wouldn't be all this is my martial art street ready? Nonsense there would just be train because it will make you better through hard work.



A big part of a martial art being 'street ready' is instilling the ability to avoid having to use your skills in the first place.



drop bear said:


> It has a lot to do with morality. And developing a reasonable head on your shoulders under stress. Not about constantly condemning people. You gym sounds mean and non inclusive. At some point you have to accept people as they are to a point.



It's all very well to accept someone into your school who has a less then perfect attitude thinking you can change them but if you let them get away with too much it will do a disservice to the other students.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Fighting and self defense are two entirely different things, they only look the same to those who do not understand the difference.
> 
> A big part of a martial art being 'street ready' is instilling the ability to avoid having to use your skills in the first place.
> 
> It's all very well to accept someone into your school who has a less then perfect attitude thinking you can change them but if you let them get away with too much it will do a disservice to the other students.




OK as a typical self defence class how much time is spent on learning to hurt people? Because I have done a few martial arts and it seems to be 90% hurting. Kata as the topic of this thread is pretty much all hurting people.

There is a term we use called ego sparring and that is frowned upon. The rule is if you want to ego spar. There is a pro fighter who will oblige you. But you don't prey on people. It is the difference between being competitive and passionate. And being a tool.

And it is a valuable life lesson most people who MMA have to be taught at least once.

The training is tough. You have to be mature to handle it. And sometimes that takes a few stumbles.

You see the people at their best and their worst.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Training for self defence is training for non competitive fights out side the ring. That is the training for defence sales pitch. With the no rules the weapons and the illegal moves. Why the constant harp about the street if people are avoiding fights? There wouldn't be all this is my martial art street ready? Nonsense there would just be train because it will make you better through hard work.
> 
> Actually no, self defence is different from being in fights because you are looking for them.
> 
> ...




You are the one who is being judgemental, you have judged my gym without knowing anything about it, you have judged me without knowing anything about me and have misunderstood entirely what I was saying. You made it about people instead of training, you are entirely off track as to what I was saying turning it into something I wasn't meaning. 
I'll put it simply, if your students are training to fight and that's what you teach them, if they don't do kata because you don't teach it how can you comment knowledgably about kata.
and while we are at it who actually said sparring was detrimental.


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## Paul_D (Oct 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK as a typical self defence class how much time is spent on learning to hurt people?


In a bad one 95%, in a good one 5%


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK as a typical self defence class how much time is spent on learning to hurt people? Because I have done a few martial arts and it seems to be 90% hurting. Kata as the topic of this thread is pretty much all hurting people.



The goal of self defense training is not to cause harm to others but to limit harm to yourself and anyone you are trying to protect. Unfortunately sometimes the only way to do that is to harm your attacker. To that end every block, strike, joint lock, throw or kick is designed to be painful to an attacker to various degrees.




drop bear said:


> There is a term we use called ego sparring and that is frowned upon. The rule is if you want to ego spar. There is a pro fighter who will oblige you. But you don't prey on people. It is the difference between being competitive and passionate. And being a tool.
> 
> And it is a valuable life lesson most people who MMA have to be taught at least once.
> 
> ...



It doesn't happen very often but every now and then we will get someone in class who lets their ego get the better of them (usually students from other styles) and either get too aggressive or refuse to change their ways. The ones that get too agressive will ocasionally have to be put in their place.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2014)

I would point out that I didn't bring ego, 'ego sparring' or anything like that into this thread, my point was simply that if you are training for one thing and not using kata you don't have a huge lot of experience of kata and Bunkai, I don't know how that got turned into who trains MMA and why, the thread is about sparring and kata supposedly. If you train for example Judo all the time you won't have a good working knowledge of boxing. that's simple enough isn't it? If you have guys who mainly want to train for fighting in the street and you train that you won't have a good working knowledge of kata. I don't care what people in other places train for, I just don't think that training for one thing gives you automatic knowledge of another thing.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> ...
> and while we are at it who actually said sparring was detrimental.



Check out my comment # 160 on page 11 of this thread which explains the whole context behind the original post.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Check out my comment # 160 on page 11 of this thread which explains the whole context behind the original post.



Thank you, it's all got lost I think! It does confirm what I was thinking though that those who haven't had exposure to Bunkai training don't understand it's uses and therefore tend to dismiss kata as being pointless.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> That would be exactly where. You can't really false train it unless you are drilling tactics. And the best tactics come through sales courses. There the ones who have a real vested interest in convincing people to do stuff.
> 
> Otherwise you get this which can be a bit men...
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpi2XDeN3bc
> ...



So, if I'm understanding your point correctly it goes something like this:

1) The first pre-requisite for being able to de-escalate a situation is to not be the sort of testosterone-poisoned nit-wit who instinctively _escalates _the situation.
2) Experience of hard-contact sparring can help cure that testosterone poisoning (possible mechanisms - teaching the student to be calm under pressure, giving him an outlet for aggression, reminding him that there is always someone tougher)

Is that more or less it?

If so, I'd say there's a certain degree of truth to it.

1) Many fights result from both parties being idiots and could be avoided if either person would keep their cool. It is possible that since you work in a bar, these sorts of situations might be over-represented in your personal experience.
2) Some individuals do learn to be calmer through their sparring experience. Unfortunately, this lesson is not universally learned by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2014)

Drop bear you aren't the only one who 'does this for a living' though. Working in a bar however as opposed to being a police officer may mean you don't see the full spectrum of violent behaviour. 
A fair few of my students end up in fights in pubs, bars etc despite trying very hard not to, they are often a target and despite any de-escalation techniques they use and they are skilled in this area, are often ignored as people are determined to fight them. Luckily they are well schooled too in using reasonable force and not a lot of damage is done to their attackers, sadly though they have had colleagues attacked and killed before now.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Training for self defence is training for non competitive fights out side the ring.


Yes and no. In the most generic use of the word fight (I was fighting to stay alive in that rip current), maybe. Self defense is "fighting" in that sense, but is not the same as street fighting.

But let's be honest; the martial arts are fighting systems, not self defense systems. You can use them to defend yourself, but they aren't strictly self defense. Some have competitive elements to them (taekwondo, karate, judo, Gracie jiu jitsu, etc.), but they aren't strictly for competition. They're just fighting systems.

I've said it many times before, as have others, and I'll say it again: if all you want to do is learn to defend yourself, a martial arts class is a fairly inefficient way to do it. The two to four years you spend getting to "blackbelt" in most traditional martial arts are spent learning foundational material to make you proficient in that particular system, and generally won't give you the tools you need for self defense until you've spent a fair amount of time developing foundational skills.



drop bear said:


> That is the training for defence sales pitch. With the no rules the weapons and the illegal moves. Why the constant harp about the street if people are avoiding fights? There wouldn't be all this is my martial art street ready? Nonsense there would just be train because it will make you better through hard work.


Well, now you're getting into two different elements of self defense. Let me say at the outset that virtually ever single MA school that I have had any contact with advocates avoiding fights. They don't all do a great job of showing you how, but they at least advocate it.

The stress of what moves are used, be they illegal in competition or no, and the stress of being functional outside of the ring and the studio is (A) just what you said, the sales pitch (MMA has their own sales pitches), and more importantly the techniques you train in for self defense need to be functional in that setting. The physical elements of self defense are for something that you may only need 1% of the time, but they've got to work in that 1% of the time, because that's when you're safety is on the line.

De-escalation is something that can be practiced much more frequently, and outside of a life threatening encounter; I practiced it many times over the years in a retail setting in dealing with irate customers. 

The rest of it; awareness, confidence and good habits, are things that you can, or should practice 100% of the time.

Repetition is one of the tools to making techniques instinctive. You can only practice the physical techniques with a partner but so much outside of a training setting, which is why so much emphasis must be put onto it in class.

Additionally, the average martial arts school, as much as people might like to think differently, does not have a student body that is 100% there for self defense and fighting. Many people are there for simple physical fitness (another thing that MA schools pitch), personal development, or because their parents enrolled them in the class for a combination of reinforcement of good habits, fitness, anti bullying, self defense, and childcare. 

So, a martial arts school must accommodate a wide range of training goals, most of which will actually lie outside of self defense. Self defense provides the allure; it tells the student that if they take this class they will be empowered. Empowerment is a universal desire. It crosses genders, ethnic, socio-economic, and cultural backgrounds. The rest of it (fitness, etc.) is more likely to get the student to actually sign up, but it is that promise of empowerment that often plants the seed.



drop bear said:


> and training kata does not guarantee you will not be a duchebag.


Of course not. Neither does sparring, competition, or any other type of MA training. Even training in a place where bad behavior is curbed and the sensei/sabeom/coach is of exemplary character. 

The character of a person, particularly an adult, is developed prior to their arrival at the studio. A bully who takes a TMA or MMA class will probably still be a bully because the things that made him a bully are unrelated to what physical activity he participates in. Same goes for any other reprehensible behavioral patterns. 

The time spent outside of the studio usually has a much greater impact on the student's character than the time in the studio, simply due to greater amount of time and proximity. It's the same reason that the one hour a week in religious services, no matter how wonderful the preaching or how positive and healthy the doctrine, usually has less substantive impact in a person's life than what they do the rest of the time, even if that person is fairly genuine in their beliefs.



drop bear said:


> Of course MMA is confronting. It is a full contact sport. At some point someone is going to punch you hard in the face. At some point you will be tired or angry or hungry or scared. And yet these are things you have to train yourself to deal with to be a better person. Training is good for you but training past your comfort zone is what makes a fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2014)

Interesting comment regarding bullying.  I happen to believe that a bully can benefit greatly from martial arts training, particularly a sport art where they must get some control over their ego.  Bullying is a tough subject, but understanding better why people, kids in particular, bully can really help.  And if you do know a little about why kids bully other kids, it's easy to see how sports or involvement in other extra-curriculars such as martial arts, can really help them develop the skills to handle issues in a more positive manner.

I've seen this happen many times in my kids' time in schools and youth sports, and I've seen it over and over in the BJJ school.  

Bullies on Bullying: Why We Do It


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2014)

Steve said:


> Interesting comment regarding bullying.  I happen to believe that a bully can benefit greatly from martial arts training, particularly a sport art where they must get some control over their ego.  Bullying is a tough subject, but understanding better why people, kids in particular, bully can really help.  And if you do know a little about why kids bully other kids, it's easy to see how sports or involvement in other extra-curriculars such as martial arts, can really help them develop the skills to handle issues in a more positive manner.
> 
> I've seen this happen many times in my kids' time in schools and youth sports, and I've seen it over and over in the BJJ school.
> 
> Bullies on Bullying: Why We Do It


True. My point was that where you are for maybe two to three hours a week will usually be less influential than where you are the rest of the week. Most bullies that I knew growing up had family situations that were in some way abusive, frequently due to one parent. Efforts made by the school system were blunted by the child's home life.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> True. My point was that where you are for maybe two to three hours a week will usually be less influential than where you are the rest of the week. Most bullies that I knew growing up had family situations that were in some way abusive, frequently due to one parent. Efforts made by the school system were blunted by the child's home life.



Often, immersion into some kind of positive extracurricular is exactly the thing that provides a constructive outlet, positive adult and peer role models, structure and discipline that a bully craves.  And I wouldn't sell that 2 to 3 hours per week short, particularly if it can grow into more than that.  And to be clear, when I think of positive extracurricular activity, I have in mind anything from scouting to chess club to sports to music.  

Bullying, in my experience, is a reflection of the same issues that plague those who are victims of bullying.  Often, bullies are themselves bullied.  It's a negative response to low self esteem and a lack of social skills adequate to deal with frustration, anger or depression.  Where the frustration, anger or depression comes from varies.  Bullying or being victimized by bullies are often a result of the these things, regardless of where they come from.  

That's my three sentence summary, at least...  granted a gross oversimplification.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> So, if I'm understanding your point correctly it goes something like this:
> 
> 1) The first pre-requisite for being able to de-escalate a situation is to not be the sort of testosterone-poisoned nit-wit who instinctively _escalates _the situation.
> 2) Experience of hard-contact sparring can help cure that testosterone poisoning (possible mechanisms - teaching the student to be calm under pressure, giving him an outlet for aggression, reminding him that there is always someone tougher)
> ...




Yeah pretty much and that sparring is a circumstance where you have to manage real emotional response. 

Why fights start in pubs is kind of a bit more complicated though not sure if I can properly explain it. It is not just aggressors who fight due to lack of social skills. Serial victims are also projecting something that is getting them targeted.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Drop bear you aren't the only one who 'does this for a living' though. Working in a bar however as opposed to being a police officer may mean you don't see the full spectrum of violent behaviour.
> A fair few of my students end up in fights in pubs, bars etc despite trying very hard not to, they are often a target and despite any de-escalation techniques they use and they are skilled in this area, are often ignored as people are determined to fight them. Luckily they are well schooled too in using reasonable force and not a lot of damage is done to their attackers, sadly though they have had colleagues attacked and killed before now.



Yeah but I can really only work from my own perception. I am not really commenting on all aspects of violence just the bits I know about.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Thank you, it's all got lost I think! It does confirm what I was thinking though that those who haven't had exposure to Bunkai training don't understand it's uses and therefore tend to dismiss kata as being pointless.



I was commenting on what is just not a logical statement rather than kata or sparring.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I was commenting on what is just not a logical statement rather than kata or sparring.




My comment wasn't specific to you it was an observation.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> My comment wasn't specific to you it was an observation.



Well in general terms you will get polar opposite opinions on the subject and you will find both can be right. Martial arts gets like that some times.


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## Buka (Oct 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Drop bear you aren't the only one who 'does this for a living' though. Working in a bar however as opposed to being a police officer may mean you don't see the full spectrum of violent behaviour.
> A fair few of my students end up in fights in pubs, bars etc despite trying very hard not to, they are often a target and despite any de-escalation techniques they use and they are skilled in this area, are often ignored as people are determined to fight them. Luckily they are well schooled too in using reasonable force and not a lot of damage is done to their attackers, sadly though they have had colleagues attacked and killed before now.



Wow. That troubles me. I didn't know you were part of such a violent situation, Tez. Please be careful, your students, too.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2014)

Buka said:


> Wow. That troubles me. I didn't know you were part of such a violent situation, Tez. Please be careful, your students, too.



LOL my students are teddy bears trust me. I'm retired now but have, when I worked, had to deal with a great many situations involving violence. Soldiers are targets, from the lads who fancy themselves hard and want to prove it by knocking out a squaddie to those who think the squaddie is encroaching on his girlfriend ( which to be fair he prob was), squaddies like to fight among themselves but I've never had a problem breaking those fights up and they will go away arms around each other best of mates sporting the bruises they gave each other. I live and worked on the largest Garrison in Europe, there is always some sort of altercation going on. In other towns though we have had soldiers attacked and killed by thugs. Sometimes the girls fighting is worse, I hate breaking up female fights and the Fijians when they fight, they are man mountains and need a dozen police officers to take then down...or one dog, they seem to be terrified of the police dogs! Never seen the Gurkhas fight though. The Irish regiment is bad for it, they'd fight anyone and when they run out of people they'd fight among themselves lol. I was waiting at the guardroom when some of the Irish Rangers came in fighting each other coming through the gate, they came up to me, all separated, wished me good night, walked on a bit then started fighting again, madmen.

 The worst threat at the moment is that of terrorists attacking the soldiers, we've always had that from N Ireland but this is different, when a squaddie is knocked down by a car and beheaded we have a bad situation on our hands.  

The majority of the martial arts students are military, we take civvies, anyone who wants, including travellers who are great in the club and they have a violent reputation but are cool in the club The military students are disciplined and fit, for them MMA is a stress reliever. Over the past ten years the Garrison has lost a lot of soldiers, male and female with many more having life changing injuries. We lost two students in Afghan the youngest was only 20.


Many years ago when I was in the forces I worked in a place that had riots ad attacks, no British service person was safe basically. I've also been out on runs ashore with the Bootnecks and the amount of lads that want to fight a commando is amazing, my then boyfriend would take off his watch and there they'd go again, despite the refusal of the idiots to go away, being told that the Marines wanted no trouble etc. 

One of our students Steve was Bisping's first pro opponent, it was our fight night, Steve was awesomely bad lol, Bisping not a lot better though he improved, Steve went back to rugby roflmao.


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