# Spinning Back Kick or Spinning Hook Kick?



## Lynne

The break I have to do next week is the spinning back kick, dwi tullryo chagi.  It's a spinning hook kick, not this:  



 
We almost do Chuck Liddell's version to go from orange belt to green belt.  We don't do a sidekick. (Not sure what he is doing at the beginning with the sidekick - the tape was too mumbly for me to hear it.)  We kick straight back.  We simply call it a back kick or dwi chagi.  Our proper form is to turn 180, look over our shoulder at the target, and back kick the target.

I thought there might be some confusion.  What do you call the spinning hook kick?  Do you call it a spinning back kick?


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## DMcHenry

I call a back kick dwi-chagi, and a hook kick nak-sae-chagi.


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## Lynne

DMcHenry said:


> I call a back kick dwi-chagi, and a hook kick nak-sae-chagi.


 I believe we call the hook kick yup hurygi chagi.  I realized this morning that most people do not call the spinning hook kick the spinning back kick.  I'm not sure why we do.


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## JoelD

Lynne said:


> The break I have to do next week is the spinning back kick, dwi tullryo chagi. It's a spinning hook kick, not this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We almost do Chuck Liddell's version to go from orange belt to green belt. We don't do a sidekick. (Not sure what he is doing at the beginning with the sidekick - the tape was too mumbly for me to hear it.) We kick straight back. We simply call it a back kick or dwi chagi. Our proper form is to turn 180, look over our shoulder at the target, and back kick the target.
> 
> I thought there might be some confusion. What do you call the spinning hook kick? Do you call it a spinning back kick?


 
Lynne, In our classes there are a few different spinning kicks even though when done at speed a dwi cha gi (back kick) and an E dan dwi cha gi (Jump back kick) almost looks like youre spinning but the hips are squared with the target.  The spinning kicks use the force of the hip rotation for power and the leg moves in an arc. anyways a couple of the big ones i can think of are: 

Short spinning kick or Dwi Ahneso Pahkuro Cha Gi - Starting in a side stance the back leg kicks in a short, high arc and the torso remains upright. designed to kick an opponent close to you.

Long spinning kick or Dwi Hu Ri Gi - Starting in a side stance the back leg kicks however during the spin the torso moves such that the knot of your belt will point at the ground in the middle of the hip rotation. This causes the kick to extend into a long outward arc, hence the name 'long spinning kick'. Executed to kick an opponent farther away. This kick is probably the equivalent of your spinning hook kick i would think though perhaps with the of snapping the knee forward just before impact.

Jump reverse outside inside kick or E Dan Dwi Pahkeso Ahnuro Cha Gi - Starting in a side stance the rear leg is lifted and spun around to the front in a forward moving jump. The leg that started of in the front is lifted and executes the kick as the hip spins through in a short high arc. Even though the arc of the kick is close to your own body you can really cover alot of forward ground with the initial forward jump with the rear leg.

On all of these kicks the kicking leg is always held straight.


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## Gi1

We call it spinning back kick (dwi dull  ro cha gi) where you kick with the back leg  bringing it all the way round and place  the leg back  behind the other again after and side hook kick (yup hu ri gi) where you kick with the front leg and put it down in front after. They are the basic ones.


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## Lynne

Gi1 said:


> We call it spinning back kick (dwi dull ro cha gi) where you kick with the back leg bringing it all the way round and place the leg back behind the other again after and side hook kick (yup hu ri gi) where you kick with the front leg and put it down in front after. They are the basic ones.


 Evidently, the Korean name for the spinning back (hook) kick is dwi dull ro cha gi (I guess I can see how the hook kick is a sort of reverse roundhouse).  My daughter told me our Sa Ba Nim usually calls the kick a spinning hook kick and the instructors tend to say spinning back kick.  Why do they use the Korean word for roundhouse, I wonder?


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## foggymorning162

The way we are taught is in the video he first demonstrates a spinning side, then a spinning back just like he says. A spinning hook starts like the spinning side as it is loaded high and the foot is horizontal not vertical but the kick is thrown at approximately 130 degrees or just before your target then the foot is for lack of a better description jerked back so the heel does the kick. I don't know if this makes sense it's easier to demonstrate then explain which is saying a lot because I hate that kick.


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## Muwubu16858

It spins backward (dwi) in a round (Dol Ryo) motion. Also in some other Tang Soo Do styles, there is more than one type of backswinging kick. We have several in my style, each taught at different levels and used for different reasons.


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## DMcHenry

"dull ro cha gi" doesn't actually mean "roundhouse kick", simply means "turning kick".  A 'turning' kick is what we call a 'roundhouse' kick.

A dwi (back) dullro (turning) chagi (kick) can describe the back kick.  I guess you could call it dwi yup chagi or tullo dwi chagi too.


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## MBuzzy

WELL, if we're just talking about pure naming and terminology/translation stuff.....I can help a bit.  Keep in mind that different schools use different terms for different things.  So be sure that you check with your Sa Bom, because what he/she says is ALWAYS right!

But....

Back Kick - Dwi Chagi - &#46244;&#52264;&#44592; 
Turning Back Kick (Literal) - Dwi Dullyeo Chagi - &#46244;&#46028;&#47140;&#52264;&#44592;
Turning Hook Kick - Dwi Hureo Chagi - &#46104;&#54980;&#47140;&#52264;&#44592;
Side Hook Kick - Yup Hureo Chagi or Yup Huri Gi - &#50694;&#54980;&#47140;&#52264;&#44592; or &#50694;&#54980;&#47532;&#44592;


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## DMcHenry

"because what he/she says is ALWAYS right!"

Not according to my wife, she is! 

{just joking}


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## MBuzzy

DMcHenry said:


> "because what he/she says is ALWAYS right!"
> 
> Not according to my wife, she is!
> 
> {just joking}



hahaha, Mine too!  I can be right at work, I can be right in class....but at home, I'm always wrong!

The way I see it, your instructor is the one who is grading you and is responsible for your promotions and training, so if they tell you something, just assume it is right!


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## foggymorning162

MBuzzy said:


> So be sure that you check with your Sa Bom, because what he/she says is ALWAYS right!


 
 I agree 100% every organization is different, every school is different heck every teacher is different.



DMcHenry said:


> Not according to my wife, she is!


 
Did you know that if a man says something in the woods and his wife is not there to hear him..............he's still wrong. (quote from Micheal J. Fox the other day on the Rachel Ray show)


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## terryl965

Always check with your instructor do as he likes, remember when in Rome be a Roman.

PS my wife is always right too.


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## JT_the_Ninja

Anywhere you see "dulryo," it involves turning, as in dulryo chagi = roundhouse kick:

dwi chagi = back kick
dwi dulryo chagi = back wheel kick

yup chagi = side kick
dulryo yup chagi = turning side kick

Tang Soo!


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## JoelD

I have never heard "Dwi Dullryo Cha Gi" before....

Heres a question on a different kick though... Peet Cha Gi, kind of the defining kick of Soo Bahk Do i guess. 

this one, for those who dont know... it is at 3:44 in the video below...




 
I have heard it referred to as the reverse roundhouse kick in english... so why have i never heard it called "Tuel Oh Dollyro Cha Gi". What is the literal translation of "Peet"?


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## Tez3

Lynne said:


> The break I have to do next week is the spinning back kick, dwi tullryo chagi. It's a spinning hook kick, not this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We almost do Chuck Liddell's version to go from orange belt to green belt. We don't do a sidekick. (Not sure what he is doing at the beginning with the sidekick - the tape was too mumbly for me to hear it.) We kick straight back. We simply call it a back kick or dwi chagi. Our proper form is to turn 180, look over our shoulder at the target, and back kick the target.
> 
> I thought there might be some confusion. What do you call the spinning hook kick? Do you call it a spinning back kick?


 
What Chucks doing is what we call a 'fighting' back kick, though my instrucutor tends to keep his leg straighter as in a crescent kick. We do the 'traditional' one as you've described back kicking the target. A tip I was given as my balance is a bit iffy is instead of looking over your shoulder aim your bum at the target and you will hit it, a little practice and it works very well for me.


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## MBuzzy

JoelD said:


> I have never heard "Dwi Dullryo Cha Gi" before....
> 
> Heres a question on a different kick though... Peet Cha Gi, kind of the defining kick of Soo Bahk Do i guess.
> 
> this one, for those who dont know... it is at 3:44 in the video below...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard it referred to as the reverse roundhouse kick in english... so why have i never heard it called "Tuel Oh Dollyro Cha Gi". What is the literal translation of "Peet"?


 
I'll have to look up Peet Cha Gi when I get home, my online dictionary has become a pay site!  I think that it is just a proper name for that technique.  I have always heard it translated to reverse roundhouse kick. I'll see what I can find when I get home tonight.


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## Gi1

Yeah we call Peet Cha gi reverse roundhouse in English. E-dan Peet Cha gi cost me a cruciate ligament when I landed.


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## JoelD

Gi1 said:


> Yeah we call Peet Cha gi reverse roundhouse in English. E-dan Peet Cha gi cost me a cruciate ligament when I landed.


 
Youch.... never heard of doing a jumping version of that one.


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## JT_the_Ninja

Gi1 said:


> Yeah we call Peet Cha gi reverse roundhouse in English. E-dan Peet Cha gi cost me a cruciate ligament when I landed.



I'll bet it did! 

I'm actually not sure what the English term we use that technique is....we just always say the name, with a demonstration if people don't understand...it's kind of like a "Yeah, that move" thing: understood from its Korean name or from its extension. Which is kinda cool in it's own way, I guess.


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## MBuzzy

Well, after searching all of my Korean resources, the best that I can find is that the word peet - &#48727; means comb...which isn't it.

Aside from that, Pegi &#48288;&#44592; (verb) means cut or slash...conjugated, it might get close to peet, but not exactly.  It is possible that Peet is a Hanmun word, which I don't have a good resource for looking up.  I'll keep looking, but as of now, I can't find a good translation.  It could always just be a proper name that was given to the technique to differenciate itself from others as a unique name.  Since &#48715;, &#54607; and &#54595; aren't words that I can find....I'm stumped.


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## Bodhisattva

Lynne said:


> The break I have to do next week is the spinning back kick, dwi tullryo chagi.  It's a spinning hook kick, not this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We almost do Chuck Liddell's version to go from orange belt to green belt.  We don't do a sidekick. (Not sure what he is doing at the beginning with the sidekick - the tape was too mumbly for me to hear it.)  We kick straight back.  We simply call it a back kick or dwi chagi.  Our proper form is to turn 180, look over our shoulder at the target, and back kick the target.
> 
> I thought there might be some confusion.  What do you call the spinning hook kick?  Do you call it a spinning back kick?



I don't much like to spin in a fight, personally.  So no need to call it anything.


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## Lynne

Bodhisattva said:


> I don't much like to spin in a fight, personally. So no need to call it anything.


 I saw from your profile you do mixed martial arts.  I watch the UFC when I can and notice that spins aren't very effective.  They seem pretty risky.

In Tang Soo Do, we spar; we don't fight so we have a different philosophical approach than you might.  Korean terminology is very important at our school and this is why I was asking the question.  I realized that some schools use different Korean terminology.  Also, calling a spinning hook kick a dwi dullryo (roundhouse) cha gi didn't make sense to me.  I do nitpick stuff like that because it's important to know what one is doing.

When I break with the spinning hook kick next week, Master R will ask me the name of the kick and I will recite it in Korean.

Muwubu explained it perfectly.  Dullryo means round motion.

Curious - do you all pronounce dullryo "tolio" (like polio).  We do.


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## Tez3

Lynne said:


> I saw from your profile you do mixed martial arts. I watch the UFC when I can and notice that spins aren't very effective. They seem pretty risky.
> 
> In Tang Soo Do, we spar; we don't fight so we have a different philosophical approach than you might. Korean terminology is very important at our school and this is why I was asking the question. I realized that some schools use different Korean terminology. Also, calling a spinning hook kick a dwi dullryo (roundhouse) cha gi didn't make sense to me. I do nitpick stuff like that because it's important to know what one is doing.
> 
> When I break with the spinning hook kick next week, Master R will ask me the name of the kick and I will recite it in Korean.
> 
> Muwubu explained it perfectly. Dullryo means round motion.
> 
> Curious - do you all pronounce dullryo "tolio" (like polio). We do.


 

I've seen many spinning techniques used in MMA, spinning back fist, spinning hook kick and spinning roundhouse TKD style, they are very effective when done properly.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QiV2CU5Gb6Y

This one is guess how many types of kicks Marios does lol!


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## Lynne

Tez3 said:


> I've seen many spinning techniques used in MMA, spinning back fist, spinning hook kick and spinning roundhouse TKD style, they are very effective when done properly.
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QiV2CU5Gb6Y
> 
> This one is guess how many types of kicks Marios does lol!


 
Wow! Just wow...Marios is lightening fast.  Shows how important it is to have a handful of very good techniques.


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## Lynne

Bodhisattva said:


> I don't much like to spin in a fight, personally. So no need to call it anything.


 
I'll retract what I said about spin kicks after watching the video Tez submitted on Marios Z.


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## MBuzzy

DMcHenry said:


> "dull ro cha gi" doesn't actually mean "roundhouse kick", simply means "turning kick".  A 'turning' kick is what we call a 'roundhouse' kick.
> 
> A dwi (back) dullro (turning) chagi (kick) can describe the back kick.  I guess you could call it dwi yup chagi or tullo dwi chagi too.





Lynne said:


> Muwubu explained it perfectly.  Dullryo means round motion.
> 
> Curious - do you all pronounce dullryo "tolio" (like polio).  We do.



Lynne, while Muwubu's explanation was exactly right regarding the motion which the kick takes, if someone asks you what the word actually means, Master Mac is right on here.  The literal translation of Dullryeo is "turning."  

That is actually very close to the pronunciation, so I would say that you've got it about right.  To get any closer than that, you'd need to learn Korean!  

I've learned in my efforts to translate that many words don't mean what we think they mean and often, Korean have many words to describe very slightly different concepts that we usually just use the same word for.


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## Tez3

Lynne said:


> I'll retract what I said about spin kicks after watching the video Tez submitted on Marios Z.


 
Cool aren't they lol! I've seen a fair few spinning kicks used in MMA and even more in KB and Muay Thai. Even seen a spinning knee!


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## Montecarlodrag

JoelD said:


> I have never heard "Dwi Dullryo Cha Gi" before....


We used to call the kick that way 
Several years ago, we felt the name doesn't make sense, because that particular kick does not spin, at least the one Chuck is doing. The way we do it is very straight and focused. It is more powerful and way faster. It is like a side kick but from behind. That's why we call it "Dwi Yup cha ki", meaning "reverse side kick". We aren't sure if it's correct, but it makes more sense than a spinning back kick which does not spin at all.

We make other kicks which do spin (roundhouse), but they are different.

As for the hook kick, we call it "Yup koryo cha Ki", and "Dwi koryo cha ki" (reverse). It hits with heel in both cases.



JoelD said:


> Heres a question on a different kick though... Peet Cha Gi, kind of the defining kick of Soo Bahk Do i guess.
> 
> this one, for those who dont know... it is at 3:44 in the video below...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvcrvtz46pU
> 
> I have heard it referred to as the reverse roundhouse kick in english... so why have i never heard it called "Tuel Oh Dollyro Cha Gi". What is the literal translation of "Peet"?


"peet cha ki" or Bit Cha ki, as far as WTDSA is concerned, is a like a "dollryo cha ki" but without hip and base foot turning (like the kicks you see on the average TKD fights, diagonal kicks hitting with the instep). It's more diagonal than roundhouse, like a hybrid between a front kick (ahp cha ki) and a Dollryo cha ki. It is not the kick on the video.


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## MBuzzy

MBuzzy said:


> Well, after searching all of my Korean resources, the best that I can find is that the word peet - &#48727; means comb...which isn't it.
> 
> Aside from that, Pegi &#48288;&#44592; (verb) means cut or slash...conjugated, it might get close to peet, but not exactly.  It is possible that Peet is a Hanmun word, which I don't have a good resource for looking up.  I'll keep looking, but as of now, I can't find a good translation.  It could always just be a proper name that was given to the technique to differenciate itself from others as a unique name.  Since &#48715;, &#54607; and &#54595; aren't words that I can find....I'm stumped.



Well, I asked a Korean speaker (I know I'm a little late...) and they said that Peet Cha Ki translates roughly to "Twisting motion" or "twisting kick." 

And I know that it is often referred to as the "defining kick of TSD."  I have been it is obviously present in many other style, we simply emphasize it more than other styles.  I was once told that Peet Cha Gi only exists in Soo Bahk Do and that no other styles do it....I'm not sure how widespread that idea is, but it is obviously not true.


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## DMcHenry

I agree - I first remember seeing that kick over 30 years ago by a Shorin-ryu practioner kicking at the knee.  It was a LONG time after that that I ever saw a TSD player performing that kick.  I also remember the ads for I think Choi Kwang Do (or something like that) where the only photos they showed was the GM kicking someone in the face with that kick.

I don't believe it is exclusive to TSD, nor do I think it's a defining kick for TSD.  Of course it is used in the SBD emblem with HK & HCH on it.  Do you remember seeing that kick much 'before' that SBD emblem?


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## Tez3

There's not a kick in TSD that I hadn't done before in Wado Ryu but there are kicks in the latter I haven't done in TSD.


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## Montecarlodrag

Tez3 said:


> There's not a kick in TSD that I hadn't done before in Wado Ryu but there are kicks in the latter I haven't done in TSD.



For example?


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## Tez3

Inverted crescent kick for one.

The jump kicks too, in TSD they are just done as jumping scissors kicks whereas they are also done in Wado as straight jumping kicks.


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## JT_the_Ninja

Tez3 said:


> Inverted crescent kick for one.
> 
> The jump kicks too, in TSD they are just done as jumping scissors kicks whereas they are also done in Wado as straight jumping kicks.



(1) Do elaborate on the inverted crescent kick...I'm intrigued.

(2) Watch your generalizations. My school (I balk at saying all of the ITF as an example of taking my own advice) does jump front kicks by raising the one knee, then pushing off and bringing up the other knee and kicking...a jumping front kick. We do sometimes practice scissor-style double-kicks, but the general case is just the single jump front kick.


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## Tez3

JT_the_Ninja said:


> (1) Do elaborate on the inverted crescent kick...I'm intrigued.
> 
> (2) *Watch your generalizations*. My school (I balk at saying all of the ITF as an example of taking my own advice) does jump front kicks by raising the one knee, then pushing off and bringing up the other knee and kicking...a jumping front kick. We do sometimes practice scissor-style double-kicks, but the general case is just the single jump front kick.


 
Excuse me? 
What you have described as a jump front kick is a jumping scissors front kick in Wado, a jumping front kick in Wado is jumping straight up and kicking without bringing the other leg up.

I don't know what you are describing as scissor kicks.


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## JoelD

this is what JT is talking about... jumping front kick in Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do).... 



 
The following is what i always thought a scissor kick was.... (first kick in the vid).. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTW6TBi5MI&feature=related


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## JT_the_Ninja

Thanks for the vid, JoelD.

By "scissor kick," Tez3, I thought you meant a move where both legs kick -- the one foot comes up and kicks, then the other comes up and kicks -- a scissor motion. The jump front kick we practice doesn't have that scissor motion; one knee comes up as you jump (for height), and then the other foot (the actual launching foot) kicks. I can sort of imagine jumping with both feet and then kicking with one, but it doesn't seem to me that would be very powerful, or anything but awkward. If you could give me a vid, I'd be delighted to be proven wrong, though.


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## Tez3

JoelD said:


> this is what JT is talking about... jumping front kick in TSD....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following is what i always thought a scissor kick was.... (first kick in the vid).. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTW6TBi5MI&feature=related


 
The first is what I know in Wado as a jumping scissors kick and what I do in TSD as a front jump kick. 

The second looks like a bad double front kick.This is how I know it.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I2FRoH1nOIc&feature=related


I've been looking for the Wado jumping front kick but can't find one, it's the same as if you were doing it without the jump, only you jump straight up and kick. It can be done just eas easily with either leg, front or back.


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## Tez3

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XRgIbBpJnnU&feature=related

Well that took a bit of looking for! 
I can't honestly say I get more power out of the TSD jumping kick though I get more height sometimes. I find it clunkier to do, the Wado style (though they use the scissors version too) is faster and easily done from standing position, you just jump and kick. Its my feeling that Wado gives you more choices therefore more ammo in your box.


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## JT_the_Ninja

Nice vid; that's a good break; looks like a break I've been practicing lately using both feet (not to be confused with a split kick, where the feet kick separate targets). 

I still, though, think the TSD version is more useful. Why? Well, unless you're Bruce Lee, you don't fight Kareem Abdul-Jabbar all that often. In other words, the point of the jump isn't (purely, if at all) for height. A jump front kick (some might say any jump kick) finds a lot more use in a "skip" variation. You can use it to fake and counter or to cover ground quickly -- especially for the latter, in fact. You don't have to go six feet in the air.

I can see the case being made for a front kick done the "Wado" way if you're doing a switch-up kick, just jumping up and front-kicking with the back foot, although I do that more often as a roundhouse tag to the face/gut. 

No offense to your method, though; if you can do it well and it works for you, keep doing it


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## JoelD

Here is what is a jump double front kick in Soo bahk Do (Ssang bahl Ahp Cha Nut Gi) probably what youre thinking of, JT... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnNh4c1akyI&feature=channel_page


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## JoelD

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Nice vid; that's a good break; looks like a break I've been practicing lately using both feet (not to be confused with a split kick, where the feet kick separate targets).
> 
> I still, though, think the TSD version is more useful. Why? Well, unless you're Bruce Lee, you don't fight Kareem Abdul-Jabbar all that often. In other words, the point of the jump isn't (purely, if at all) for height. A jump front kick (some might say any jump kick) finds a lot more use in a "skip" variation. You can use it to fake and counter or to cover ground quickly -- especially for the latter, in fact. You don't have to go six feet in the air.
> 
> I can see the case being made for a front kick done the "Wado" way if you're doing a switch-up kick, just jumping up and front-kicking with the back foot, although I do that more often as a roundhouse tag to the face/gut.
> 
> No offense to your method, though; if you can do it well and it works for you, keep doing it


 
or if you are a female facing a much taller male... could be useful there.


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## Montecarlodrag

Tez3 said:


> Inverted crescent kick for one.
> 
> The jump kicks too, in TSD they are just done as jumping scissors kicks whereas they are also done in Wado as straight jumping kicks.



We do all the kicks shown in all videos posted here. The double leg front kick can be performed with feet close to ecach other, or with legs opened the farthest you can. You should only keep your body straight to be considered fron kick.

Inverted crescent kick, is it jumping or standing?
We do them both

I think your TSD school was a little kick-lacking


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## JT_the_Ninja

JoelD said:


> or if you are a female facing a much taller male... could be useful there.



Well...maybe. But if you're a female facing a much larger male, there's a much easier target closer to the ground, isn't there?


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## matt.m

Spinning hook by far is the one I prefer.  When done right it is an amazing kick.


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## JoelD

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Well...maybe. But if you're a female facing a much larger male, there's a much easier target closer to the ground, isn't there?


 
indeed.


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## Tez3

Montecarlodrag said:


> We do all the kicks shown in all videos posted here. The double leg front kick can be performed with feet close to ecach other, or with legs opened the farthest you can. You should only keep your body straight to be considered fron kick.
> 
> *Inverted crescent kick, is it jumping or standing?*
> *We do them both*
> 
> I think your TSD school was a little kick-lacking


 

Good, you can explain them for me them and why they are called the figure of four kick!


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## Montecarlodrag

Tez3 said:


> Good, you can explain them for me


 
Well, what can I say? There are some variations of the kick -> Hit with heel, hit with instep or with the inner side of foot.

The jumping one is something like this:




 
This kick is often performed a little different, kicking from side to side:




(is also easier to do it this way).

The key when hitting this kick with heel is to jump the higher you can and rise the leg the most to take advantage of a crouching/smaller opponent.
If you hit with your heel like an axe, the effect is much better, but the kick is harder to perform and easier to evade/block and counter by big opponents. There is a big chance of a broken collarbone, or broken nose and knockout if you hit it right (Once a male green belt kicked a female brown belt with that kick during a gup test, she got a broken nose, a lot of bleeding and big black-eye). 
We call it "E dan dwi phakeso anuro cha ki" (jumping reverse crescent kick)

If you hit with the side of your foot, the kick is somehow faster, easier to do and harder to evade/block. The jump doesn't need to be very high for the kick to be effective. 

To hit with instep is better than with the side of foot, but is harder because of the hip movement required. This kick is called different, it is not crescent but some people call it that way. We call it "E dan dwi tollyo cha ki" (jumping reverse roundhouse kick).

The standing kick needs no explanation. We call it "Dwi phakeso anuro cha ki", however we almost ever use it, because is slower and we have a better option: "Dwi aneso phakuro cha ki"



Tez3 said:


> why they are called the figure of four kick!


I have not heard of that term, and I don't really know what it is. Would you care to explain the meaning of that?


Regards.


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## JT_the_Ninja

@Montecarlodrag: Heh, well that's something we usually do as a roundhouse variation, but I know we've also practiced it (or, at least, my sabomnim's made me do it) as a crescent kick. 

In reference to the second video, in fact, one of the "long-distance" drills that green belts learn involves a back-leg round kick, followed by a turn and another round kick with the same leg. If you're a certain age/rank/skill level, you do the turn as a jump, pretty much in the way shown in that second video, only with round kicks. 

Looking at that kick, the only thing that occurs to me is the strain it would put on your (well, my) knee and hip coming through at that angle. I understand the reason -- you want to hit with your sole/heel to avoid injury -- but turning your hip for a spin while bringing your leg in that direction just makes my knee hurt to think about it. Maybe I'm just missing something (or maybe, like I said, it's just my messed-up knees).  *tries kick in his living room* Yeah, I felt that. It's the way you turn your leg to kick with your sole/heel while bringing it across your body, even while turning. I find it much easier to do the round kick version. Of course, I condition my insoles to be able to take impact, allowing me to round kick with a lot of power without risking hurting myself (too much). 

Again, if I missed something in the video, please correct me.


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## Tez3

Montecarlodrag said:


> Well, what can I say? There are some variations of the kick -> Hit with heel, hit with instep or with the inner side of foot.
> 
> The jumping one is something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This kick is often performed a little different, kicking from side to side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (is also easier to do it this way).
> 
> The key when hitting this kick with heel is to jump the higher you can and rise the leg the most to take advantage of a crouching/smaller opponent.
> If you hit with your heel like an axe, the effect is much better, but the kick is harder to perform and easier to evade/block and counter by big opponents. There is a big chance of a broken collarbone, or broken nose and knockout if you hit it right (Once a male green belt kicked a female brown belt with that kick during a gup test, she got a broken nose, a lot of bleeding and big black-eye).
> We call it "E dan dwi phakeso anuro cha ki" (jumping reverse crescent kick)
> 
> If you hit with the side of your foot, the kick is somehow faster, easier to do and harder to evade/block. The jump doesn't need to be very high for the kick to be effective.
> 
> To hit with instep is better than with the side of foot, but is harder because of the hip movement required. This kick is called different, it is not crescent but some people call it that way. We call it "E dan dwi tollyo cha ki" (jumping reverse roundhouse kick).
> 
> The standing kick needs no explanation. We call it "Dwi phakeso anuro cha ki", however we almost ever use it, because is slower and we have a better option: "Dwi aneso phakuro cha ki"
> 
> 
> I have not heard of that term, and I don't really know what it is. Would you care to explain the meaning of that?
> 
> 
> Regards.


 

None of those kicks is what I know as an _inverted_ crescent kick, not a reverse crescent kick.

Ok imagine standing in left fighting stance, bring your right foot up to the inside of your left knee, just above it, you'll see the figure four shape, then kick out to the front with the right foot as in a side kick with the side of the foot, turning the left foot slightly. Sounds odd I know but it's a nice little kick when you get the hang of it.

The TSD kicks we do are all the ones in the syllabus so I guess it must be the syllabus 'lacking'. The book and syllabus followed is that of Master Kang Uk Lee. Our students don't lack variety however as I teach them Wado kicks as well, including, skip and slide jumps.


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## Montecarlodrag

Tez3 said:


> None of those kicks is what I know as an _inverted_ crescent kick, not a reverse crescent kick.
> 
> Ok imagine standing in left fighting stance, bring your right foot up to the inside of your left knee, just above it, you'll see the figure four shape, then kick out to the front with the right foot as in a side kick with the side of the foot, turning the left foot slightly. Sounds odd I know but it's a nice little kick when you get the hang of it.
> 
> The TSD kicks we do are all the ones in the syllabus so I guess it must be the syllabus 'lacking'. The book and syllabus followed is that of Master Kang Uk Lee. Our students don't lack variety however as I teach them Wado kicks as well, including, skip and slide jumps.


 
Well english is not my native language, the only references to the name you described were those I quoted.

So, as you describe the kick now, does it happen to be this one? (the one HC Hwang is doing)







This is kind of "trademark" kick of TSD, we call it "Bit cha ki" or "Peet cha ki". It is useful in some close combat situations, first because it is very fast and precise, second because very few people know it and nobody expects you to use it.

Is this the one you are talking about?


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## Tez3

Montecarlodrag said:


> Well english is not my native language, the only references to the name you described were those I quoted.
> 
> So, as you describe the kick now, does it happen to be this one? (the one HC Hwang is doing)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is kind of "trademark" kick of TSD, we call it "Bit cha ki" or "Peet cha ki". It is useful in some close combat situations, first because it is very fast and precise, second because very few people know it and nobody expects you to use it.
> 
> Is this the one you are talking about?


 


No sorry it's not. I will get the Japanese name for it and a better description. I've never seen it in a Korean style either TSD or TKD.


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## Montecarlodrag

I think I know which kick you are talking about. I have seen Shotokan students doing it.

It is like a Side kick, but with no hip, you hit with the outer border of the foot, the base foot is not turned backwards, you only turn it like 90 degrees.
If Im right, it must be the kick you'll see @ 1:28 in the video.




 
Is that kick?


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## Tez3

Sorry still not! the foot goes right across the knee of the other leg before coming out in what is basically a side kick done from a front kick position. I'm asking some karate friends of mine to help me find out the correct name.


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## Montecarlodrag

Maybe you can find a youtube video to show it


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## Tez3

So do I! i have found something similiar and I believe I've found the Japanese name for it but that doesn't help so far lol. I believe it's called Sokuto Fumikomi Geri, however nothing comes up on U Tube with that.

If you take the first part of this move where he brings his foot up to his knee  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4jC9pmSldOg with the second kick of this one http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pQwpYA10Ur0 thats more or less it. The foot comes up to the knee and strikes down with a side kick motion. Its basically doing a sidekick from a front stance position. Instead of turning on the non kicking foot it enables you to strike with the side of the foot without having to turn into the sidekick, it's a low kick to the knee mostly.


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## JoelD

There is a kick just like you are explaining in one of the Soo Bahk Do 1-step sparring sequences...

the kick is chambered as if executing a front kick but then it is thrust sideways into the side of an attackers knee...


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## DMcHenry

when I do a kick like that, I tend to stomp with the inside of the foot, not the outside.  Some call is an oblique kick, I just call is an arch kick because I'm using the arch of the foot.

I think it's similar to what you are referring to, but with the foot turned out not in.  Depending on circumstances, just like in the example I'll do the low stomping sidekick as well.


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## JoelD

There is also a kick like Tez3 describes (and what i describe in my post, above) in Pyung Ahn Sam Dan on the way back down the "I". I have heard this one referred to, As Master McHenry explains it above, a stomping kick but with the outside of the foot as opposed to the inside unlike the one described in his post. The intermediate position is also attained (unlike what has been described) from the tail end of a defensive outside crescent kick.. but it still ends up in the right ready position either way...


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## DMcHenry

In Pyungahn Samdan, it's sorta 2 kicks in 1.  The kick itself is an inside crescent kick, but then the low stomping kick on the landing.  The difference is you will be in a side stance when performing the low stomp and not in a front stance like the other post was describing.  (at lest in my experiences)


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## JoelD

DMcHenry said:


> In Pyungahn Samdan, it's sorta 2 kicks in 1. The kick itself is an inside crescent kick, but then the low stomping kick on the landing. The difference is you will be in a side stance when performing the low stomp and not in a front stance like the other post was describing. (at lest in my experiences)


 
Master Mac, I think I'm confusing my terms a bit here...

We dont usually call those kicks crescent kicks at all (seemed like a more common term on this board, though.)... its a Pakeso Ahnuro Cha Gi (outside to inside kick) to us Soo Bahk Do'ers.. i guess when referring to it as a crescent kick you use the destination in the name... so that is an inside crescent kick... my mistake.

Also, what is the target for the stomp kick... i assumed the knee.. perhaps the instep?


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## DMcHenry

Sorry - yes the kick in PA3 is Pakeso Ahnuro Cha Gi (that's what I call it too).   Yes sir, when landing in the stomp after the kick the target would be the instep, ankle or shin, but of course could be the knee as well.  Gotta keep your options open 

I was just trying to avoid using too many Korean terms to avoid any confusion for those that don't know them.  In English, I do tend to describe those kicks the direction they are going (like inside crescent or an outside crescent kick).  Gets to be a mouthfull to say outside-to-inside-crescent-kick.  I do them with a front kick type snapping motion while rotating my hips instead of a straight leg version I see many do.


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## astrobiologist

I'm actually completely different...  In Pyung Ahn Sam Dan, I execute an out-to-in crescent kick followed by a stomp kick.  

I prefer the crescent kick over the straight leg out-to-in because it's more realistic for self-defense.  Out-to-in kicks look cool, are fun to break with, and work great for sparring when there are rules, but a crescent kick is far more devastating for an opponent who's out to kill you.  Also, the crescent kick is much faster than the straight leg kick and leaves your groin and rear leg open for less time.  

The stomp kick could be striking a knee joint, it also could be running down a shin (the ridges on the boots I wear would tear your flesh right open), it could be stomping the toes of an opponent (not a very good maneuver but still an option), and then, my favorite, the stomp can come down in the crest of the ankle.  Stomping on the front of someone's ankle, just above the instep of their foot, is a traumatic strike.  You can damage and even break the bones and strain the tendons.  A rufian who has had their ankle crushed is far less likley to continue assaulting you.  Remeber, the name of the game is not "tap the mugger with the out-to-in kick so I can win some points" (a good strategy for competition but that will get you killed on the street), but rather, "this guy picked the wrong person to choose for a victim today".

Back to the spinning back kick / spinning hook kick debate.  My spinning back kick is a fast and effective technique.  I can and will use this technique on the street.  It involves the body spinning, risking disorientation, loss of balance, and unseen striking from the opponent for a very short time, but it is very powerful and in certain scenarios it is extremely useful (like when johnny mugger and his buddies have figured out that they are more likely to successfully rob a person if they all attack at the exact same time).

The spinning hook kick is like the back kick but the kicking leg begins the hook slightly after the middle point of the turn.  The hook snaps in the front and then finishes like a regular hook kick.  This kick is awesome for breaking (provides a lot of power and speed; Force equals mass times acceleration) and I've been very successful with the back hook kick in sparring for competition.  I've never before used the spinning hook kick on the street.  It wouldn't be much different than the back kick so I could see it working, but I personally prefer simplicity over finesse when it comes to training for life-or-death situations.


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