# Floating Elbow Theory



## futsaowingchun (Dec 28, 2021)

This is a short and simple exercise you can do to get familiar with the idea of the elbow moving in a dynamic and circular position. The concept is call Floating Elbow theory. The idea is that the elbow is not in a fixed position but can move in any direction  , and that it's not important to have the elbow on the Centerline or a certain distance from the body..By using the Floating Elbow idea more possibilities open up.


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## geezer (Dec 28, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> This is a short and simple exercise you can do to get familiar with the idea of the elbow moving in a dynamic and circular position. The concept is call Floating Elbow theory. The idea is that the elbow is not in a fixed position but can move in any direction  , and that it's not important to have the elbow on the Centerline or a certain distance from the body..By using the Floating Elbow idea more possibilities open up.


Interesting. 

I do some similar drills but with very small elbow circles and without moving the bridge (or wrist) so far off centerline which creates openings in one's defense. Also, I often work with rising and sinking arm, essentially using a small vertical circle. In any case, I believe an "alive" and elastic elbow is very important. I think this is close to what you mean by a "floating"elbow.

BTW, do you also apply this elastic quality to waist, body, and stance?


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 28, 2021)

geezer said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I do some similar drills but with very small elbow circles and without moving the bridge (or wrist) so far off centerline which creates openings in one's defense. Also, I often work with rising and sinking arm, essentially using a small vertical circle. In any case, I believe an "alive" and elastic elbow is very important. I think this is close to what you mean by a "floating"elbow.
> 
> BTW, do you also apply this elastic quality to waist, body, and stance?




Yes to all of your questions..I will make some videos on how I use the Floating elbow.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2021)

I have problem to understand your logic here. Do you suppose to have a goal first, you then find a path to achieve your goal?

You talk about floating elbow (path), but you haven't mentioned your goal yet.

- Why do you want to train floating elbow (What's your goal)?
- Why do you think the floating elbow is the only path that can help you to reach to your goal?


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have problem to understand your logic here. Do you suppose to have a goal first, you then find a path to achieve your goal?
> 
> You talk about floating elbow (path), but you haven't mentioned your goal yet.
> 
> ...



My goal is to improve myself and expand my martial art which is a reflection of myself. The Floating Elbow is only one thing but a big thing as it can change how you do your martial art..Its much more then that simple exercise in the video..I never said the Floating Elbow is the only path.. Its one path.. My path..


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> My goal is to improve myself and expand my martial art ...


Not sure I understand what you are talking about here.

- Improve what?
- Expand what?


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## drop bear (Dec 28, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> My goal is to improve myself and expand my martial art which is a reflection of myself. The Floating Elbow is only one thing but a big thing as it can change how you do your martial art..Its much more then that simple exercise in the video..I never said the Floating Elbow is the only path.. Its one path.. My path..



In what situation would you use a floating elbow?


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> In what situation would you use a floating elbow?



.the floating elbow is a fundamental concept so I use it with every time I make a move.


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not sure I understand what you are talking about here.
> 
> - Improve what?
> - Expand what?


Improve-My martial skill
Expand- my knowledge


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> Improve-My martial skill
> Expand- my knowledge



A: Why do you train foot sweep?
B: To take my opponent down.

A: Why do you train uppercut?
C: To knock my opponent down.

A: Why do you train floating elbow?
D: To improve my MA skill.

Is D's answer too abstract?


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: Why do you train foot sweep?
> B: To take my opponent down.
> 
> A: Why do you train uppercut?
> ...


My answer to your questions are not abstract because The Floating Elbow is not a simple technique. It developes many  things  not  like sweeping someone foot or and upper cut as your example..That is a to simplistic of an answer.


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## wckf92 (Dec 29, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> This is a short and simple exercise



Here you state it is simple.



futsaowingchun said:


> because The Floating Elbow is not a simple technique



Here you state it is not. 


Are you saying the application of your floating elbow is not simple?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The Floating Elbow is not a simple technique. It developes many  things


What are those "many things"?  Could you provide more detail?

- Do you use floating elbow to block a punch?
- What kind of punch?
- How do you use it to block a punch?
- Do you use floating elbow to strike?
- How to use floating elbow to strike?
- ...

Here is an example that one uses elbow to deflect a straight chest punch. Do you try to achieve something similar?


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## Callen (Dec 29, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The Floating Elbow is not a simple technique


What does the "Floating Elbow" do? Can you explain how it works and relates to the concepts and principles of the system?


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What are those "many things"?  Could you provide more detail?
> 
> - Do you use floating elbow to block a punch?
> - What kind of punch?
> ...


The picture quality is bad but I would say no..Thats not what I do..He always backing up I would bridge and rediirect his forse using my floating elbow.


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## Martial D (Dec 29, 2021)

Where's the beef


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

Callen said:


> What does the "Floating Elbow" do? Can you explain how it works and relates to the concepts and principles of the system?


The floating Elbow, connects, absorbs,and re-directs incoming force moving it in a circular path. In Wing Chun you have the immovable Elbow which stays in a relative fixed position unlike the Floating Elbow which moves in all direction.


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What are those "many things"?  Could you provide more detail?
> 
> - Do you use floating elbow to block a punch?
> - What kind of punch?
> ...


The Floating Elbow is used just like The immovable elbow theory is used in standard Wing Chun or what is commonly called Ip Man Wing Chun. The Floating Elbow can be a substitute for the Immovable Elbow. The immovable elbow moves mostly in a linear path as opposed to The Floating Elbow which uses a circular path in any direction


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

I plan on making a few videos of examples on How I use the Floating Elbow..


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## seasoned (Dec 29, 2021)

I think the name "Floating Elbow theory" is what is throwing people off. As I watch the video you put up it is no more then the proper way to preform sticky hands with a partner. (Adhere. follow, redirect) your partner, is all done within our open hand... "blocking"... techniques.


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

seasoned said:


> I think the name "Floating Elbow theory" is what is throwing people off. As I watch the video you put up it is no more then the proper way to preform sticky hands with a partner. (Adhere. follow, redirect) your partner, is all done within our open hand... "blocking"... techniques.


what video are your referring to? The way I use my elbow goes against S.O.P Standard Operating Procedure Wing Chun.


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 29, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Here you state it is simple.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Floating Elbow is not a particular  technique but is used to deliver any technique.


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## seasoned (Dec 30, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> what video are your referring to? The way I use my elbow goes against S.O.P Standard Operating Procedure Wing Chun.


The video you placed in your first post on this thread.


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 30, 2021)

seasoned said:


> The video you placed in your first post on this thread.


I just made another video on how to use the Floating Elbow.. I will post soon..It should explain that excise and make it easier to understand.


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## Martial D (Dec 30, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The Floating Elbow is used just like The immovable elbow theory is used in standard Wing Chun or what is commonly called Ip Man Wing Chun. The Floating Elbow can be a substitute for the Immovable Elbow. The immovable elbow moves mostly in a linear path as opposed to The Floating Elbow which uses a circular path in any direction


So. The reason the elbow is kept in line/on center in WC is because that's where it is structurally strongest/hardest to collapse in both offense and defense. Sure, sometimes the elbow falls off line but the concept is to recover that structure when required.

To be frank ..floating elbow sounds like a funny way to say you either don't understand WC structure or you are suggesting a new type of structure to replace it...but if the latter were true you wouldn't be answering all of these direct questions with vague nothing answers.

Color me unimpressed.


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 30, 2021)

Martial D said:


> So. The reason the elbow is kept in line/on center in WC is because that's where it is structurally strongest/hardest to collapse in both offense and defense. Sure, sometimes the elbow falls off line but the concept is to recover that structure when required.
> 
> To be frank ..floating elbow sounds like a funny way to say you either don't understand WC structure or you are suggesting a new type of structure to replace it...but if the latter were true you wouldn't be answering all of these direct questions with vague nothing answers.
> 
> Color me unimpressed.


Ive been practicing Wing Chun for 40 plus years and traned with many teachers..IMO to use the standard wing chun structure your talking about is slow and weak because is not move in a natural way. The way i move my elbow is a natural way and is much stronger then keeping your elbow close to the centerline. I could clospe that very easy..Its structurally very weak.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The Floating Elbow is not a particular technique but is used to *deliver any technique*. ...


Do you need to use your floating elbow to deliver a straight punch (not deflect your opponent's punch and then punch back)? In other words, do you use it in a pure offense?


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## futsaowingchun (Dec 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you need to use your floating elbow to deliver a straight punch (not deflect your opponent's punch and then punch back)? In other words, do you use it in a pure offense?


The elbow can move straight as well. Its not limited to any direction.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The elbow can move straight as well. Its not limited to any direction.


Do you consider to use your waist rotation to pull/push your arm instead?

In the following clip, he puts a lot of body method (waist rotation) in his training. What do you think about his approach?






In the following clip, you can see his use waist rotation to push/pull his arms. You see a lot of his body movement. You don't see much of his arm movement.


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## Callen (Dec 31, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The floating Elbow, connects, absorbs,and re-directs incoming force moving it in a circular path. In Wing Chun you have the immovable Elbow which stays in a relative fixed position unlike the Floating Elbow which moves in all direction.


Connecting, absorbing and re-directing incoming force are nothing new, the Wing Chun system already develops these attributes.

In several lineages, the immovable elbow isn’t a separate theory at all… it is built into the development of the punch, built into fundamental system mechanics, and facilitates Lat Sau Jik Chung. Proper elbow position allows us to hit freely and drive the vertical fist at all times, it aids in recovery and reinforces body unity. If that means the elbow has to move in order to be free to hit or cover, then it moves. Remove the fist of the punch and replace it with a different hand or shape, and you have the same elbow principle for the entire system.



futsaowingchun said:


> Ive been practicing Wing Chun for 40 plus years and traned with many teachers..


You’re trying to think outside the Fut Sao box. I truly hope that you continue to explore new ideas. Unfortunately though, it appears that you might be attempting to reinvent the wheel as the result of struggling with the limitations of your own understanding of the Wing Chun system.

The number of years any practitioner has put into Wing Chun is irrelevant if they have an incomplete understanding of the core concepts and principles. Improper training leads to improper development, no matter how much time is invested.



futsaowingchun said:


> IMO to use the standard wing chun structure your talking about is slow and weak because is not move in a natural way.


Perhaps these questions can help to promote some much needed critical thinking in regards to how structure can be viewed:

Where does structure come from?
Can you clearly explain the mechanics of structure?
What are the trained Wing Chun attributes that develop structure?
Do you train the Luk Dim Boon Gwan? If so, what specifically does it teach us?
You have posted several videos, can you show an example of your structure in use under pressure?



futsaowingchun said:


> The way i move my elbow is a natural way and is much stronger then keeping your elbow close to the centerline. I could clospe that very easy..Its structurally very weak.


How exactly would you go about easily collapsing someone's elbow?


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## geezer (Dec 31, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you consider to use your waist rotation to pull/push your arm instead?
> 
> In the following clip, he puts a lot of body method (waist rotation) in his training. What do you think about his approach?


I can't comment on this man's lineage, but from the perspective of the Yip Man WC/WT/VT I've been exposed to, the amount of body movement this man demonstrates seems over the top.

In my own practice I do use elastic movement of the body, hip, and stance ....but it is flexion and release _in response to pressure_, and the movement is very small ...scarcely visible if you aren't looking for it. It sure isn't floppy, _wiggly body_ kung fu like the guy doing his bouncy body siu nim tau in the video.

And to be honest although it works for me, it isn't something my old sifu taught ...at least explicitly. Rather it is something subtle I've developed in my often clumsy attempts to move like he (and others I admire) did.

He taught us a lot, but not everything. And even when he was being as open as possible, there are things that went unsaid ...things that you kinda have to discover through .... experimentation and experience? And sometimes we get things wrong. I think _Mr. Bouncy Body _got it wrong.

As far as the "floating elbow" goes... it's an interesting idea, but it also seems a little _...too much? _But I'd have to see more, or actually try it out before I could say more about it.


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## wckf92 (Dec 31, 2021)

Callen said:


> The number of years any practitioner has put into Wing Chun is irrelevant if they have an incomplete understanding of the core concepts and principles. Improper training leads to improper development, no matter how much time is invested.


This is so true and probably the most profound statement ever made on this forum. Well said @Callen  !  
Length of time spent learning and training is no measure of skill.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2021)

geezer said:


> but from the perspective of the Yip Man WC/WT/VT I've been exposed to, the amount of body movement this man demonstrates seems over the top.


Today when I walked on the beach, I did the body rotation (floating elbow) drill over and over. The more that I did, the more it makes sense to me.

When my opponent punches toward my chest, I first rotate my body to be outside of his striking path (without moving my feet). My body rotation then pull my arm to block the punch. Since my body rotation has already dodge that punch, whether my floating elbow can block my opponent's punch or not will not be important.

If I always think about to use my arm to block my opponent's punch (freeze my body, just move my arm), I'll never be able to develop how to dodge a punch.

I have always believed to develop "body method" is very important. When your chest is facing north. If your opponent throws a south direction punch, you can rotate your chest to make it to face east (or west). This way, you just let the punch to pass next to your chest. In order to do this, your body has to rotate at least 90 degree (when you stand in square stance), or 45 degree (when your stand is side stance). It makes logical sense and also practical sense.

IMO, the "body method" is similar to footwork. Instead of moving your feet, you move your waist.

I strongly believe that during the highest level of MA training, you can only see the body movement, and you should not see much arm movement. Boxing uses body method to dodge punch all the time. For some unknown reason, CMA guys just don't use body method that much.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2021)

geezer said:


> In my own practice I do use elastic movement of the body, hip, and stance ....but it is flexion and release _in response to pressure_, and the movement is very small ...scarcely visible if you aren't looking for it. It sure isn't floppy, _wiggly body_ kung fu like the guy doing his bouncy body siu nim tau in the video.


You have to start big and then go to small. Big is for training. We all know how to freeze our bodies and move our arm. We don't need any training for that. But to only move the body without moving the arm will take a lot of training.

In this clip, his waist rotation is very small.





When I drill "double spears" strategy, I move my both arms in inward circles. I have tried to do in 2 different ways.

1. Only move my arms without moving my waist.
2. Move my waist first. Let my waist to push/pull my arms.

I find out that for speed, 1 is better. For power, 2 is better. So it's just a trade off between speed and power.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 1, 2022)

futsaowingchun said:


> S.O.P Standard Operating Procedure Wing Chun.


There is no such thing.

You still haven't answered my question about the Peng bird.

Therein lies the secret of your so called "empty wing".

Happy New Year.


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## APL76 (Jan 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Today when I walked on the beach, I did the body rotation (floating elbow) drill over and over. The more that I did, the more it makes sense to me.
> 
> When my opponent punches toward my chest, I first rotate my body to be outside of his striking path (without moving my feet). My body rotation then pull my arm to block the punch. Since my body rotation has already dodge that punch, whether my floating elbow can block my opponent's punch or not will not be important.
> 
> ...


Everything you just said there, barring the floating elbow stuff, is well within the capabilities of any wing chun practitioner who has learned up to Chum Kue, assuming they know how to use it. It's all already built into the system, including this body movements stuff you keep recommending we add to wing chun.


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## wckf92 (Jan 1, 2022)

APL76 said:


> It's all already built into the system, including this body movements stuff you keep recommending we add to wing chun.



Yup. KFW likes to post this body movement stuff every once in a while to try to get his point across. IMO he simply does not understand that WC is not meant to be taken literally. It is a recipe, an alphabet, and system of processes. It is up to the practitioners to learn the ingredients of the recipe, the letters of the WC alphabet, etc and then become the cook or chef. Most do not get to that point. Hence we get videos like the ones in this thread. Sadly, the OP thinks that "SOP" wing chun (whatever that is) is lacking and that his newly created floating elbow is the solution because our WC elbow method is so weak and etc etc. He does post the occasional video that is agreeable, but in this case he seems to be making a case for a method that already exists. 
If you look closely at the forms with a focus on where and how the elbows move...it's plain to see IMO. 
It would be nice if the OP could show his theory in use, and by that I mean under pressure and not in a chi sau format. That may help us understand what he is trying to get across. 
After seeing his chi sau vid, I don't see how he could apply that theory at combat speeds and combat unpredictability. But, I could be wrong so hopefully he will show us another video aka non-chi sau application.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you consider to use your waist rotation to pull/push your arm instead?
> 
> In the following clip, he puts a lot of body method (waist rotation) in his training. What do you think about his approach?
> 
> ...


His methond is good I also use my waist to power the floating elbow.. I use this push pull as well.. He uses a lot of rising and falling in almost every move..I do this also but not to this extent,,I perfer to use a more od a circular approach,


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There is no such thing.
> 
> You still haven't answered my question about the Peng bird.
> 
> ...


S.O.P is just a term I coined. which is a mind set that there is only one way to do wing chun..I.M.O there is no one way to do wing chun. Each person will do it there own way. Sorry I did not anwser your question.. I thought you where pulling my finger. Am not sure how to answer your peng bird. I know Peng in Tai Chi is an upward expansion of energy  and outward. If your asking me if i do this definitely but in my own way..


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## Flying Crane (Jan 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you consider to use your waist rotation to pull/push your arm instead?
> 
> In the following clip, he puts a lot of body method (waist rotation) in his training. What do you think about his approach?


I will comment on this, as I practice a system that is heavily built upon the use of body rotation as a source of technical power.  

I don’t see this fellow doing it. He isn’t rotating so much, as he is oscillating up and down.  Furthermore, his movement seems to be only vaguely connected to whatever technique he is executing in the form, and is difficult to make a realistic claim that the movement is really the engine powering the technique.  Overall he seems to be oscillating rhythmically, regardless of what point he is at in the form.  I don’t see a connection in the movement. 

I do recall seeing a video of someone doing wing Chun with what seemed like a connected body rotation.  I found that intriguing because it was decidedly similar to what I do, and very different from the wing Chun that I used to do and that I seem to typically see.  I thought that this was going to be that, but it is not.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 1, 2022)

futsaowingchun said:


> S.O.P is just a term I coined. which is a mind set that there is only one way to do wing chun..I.M.O there is no one way to do wing chun. Each person will do it there own way. Sorry I did not anwser your question.. I thought you where pulling my finger. Am not sure how to answer your peng bird. I know Peng in Tai Chi is an upward expansion of energy  and outward. If your asking me if i do this definitely but in my own way..


There's no one way to do anything.

The Peng bird thing...sometimes it's just a matter of learning something new about your art, usually as simple as a new lens to try.

You look like a kung fu Big Bird to me.  That made me think of Da Peng.  "The Peng Withdraws its Wings", etc, from the Tiger Crane and Southern Dragon styles.  

Don't take that as an insult, please.  I am simply musing






And that immediately made me return to what I was doing at the time, which was examining the Map of the Inner Warp.  Thanks for that.  Keep it up.  I might actually figure this thing out someday.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There's no one way to do anything.
> 
> The Peng bird thing...sometimes it's just a matter of learning something new about your art, usually as simple as a new lens to try.
> 
> ...


very interesting illustration.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 1, 2022)

Callen said:


> Connecting, absorbing and re-directing incoming force are nothing new, the Wing Chun system already develops these attributes.
> 
> In several lineages, the immovable elbow isn’t a separate theory at all… it is built into the development of the punch, built into fundamental system mechanics, and facilitates Lat Sau Jik Chung. Proper elbow position allows us to hit freely and drive the vertical fist at all times, it aids in recovery and reinforces body unity. If that means the elbow has to move in order to be free to hit or cover, then it moves. Remove the fist of the punch and replace it with a different hand or shape, and you have the same elbow principle for the entire system.
> 
> ...


"You’re trying to think outside the Fut Sao box. I truly hope that you continue to explore new ideas. Unfortunately though, it appears that you might be attempting to reinvent the wheel as the result of struggling with the limitations of your own understanding of the Wing Chun system."

( I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. Am just mold  my Wing Chun to my own ides, Just being myself after a long time just following the crowd."and I believe ive made some improvemts on what ive learnt.)

''Where does structure come from?''
( We would first have to agree on what structure is first because everyone has a different opinion on it. But I'll just tell even i I give you an amazing definintion it means nothing if you cant do it..And if i give you a simple answer you might think I dont know what am talking about..Structure is just a simple skill..if you look at my Applied floating elbow there is structure throwout the movement..)

"What are the trained Wing Chun attributes that develop structure?"

( I can only tell you how I develop it. Which was done threw a lot of Chi Sao with my sifu. Feeling his structure then realizing i was only using strnght until I was able to do it..The key is to relax the body and let the tendons and your skeletal alignment take over.)

""Do you train the Luk Dim Boon Gwan? If so, what specifically does it teach us?""

( I have trained it but I have trained the Hung Gar pole much more then the Luk Dim Boon Gwan. I will only tell you what I got out of it..Main thing is a lot more focused  explosive power. Of course there are many others but tht is the most important.)

""You have posted several videos, can you show an example of your structure in use under pressure?""

( 



 )


''


"


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## wckf92 (Jan 2, 2022)

futsaowingchun said:


> I have trained it but I have trained the Hung Gar pole much more then the Luk Dim Boon Gwan



Interesting.  Can you post a video of the hung gar pole form? Did Henry teach both and you liked the HG form more than the Fut sao version? (Sorry, bit off topic...)


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 2, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Interesting.  Can you post a video of the hung gar pole form? Did Henry teach both and you liked the HG form more than the Fut sao version? (Sorry, bit off topic...)




I did not learn the HG pole from Henry, but my si-dai who is a Hung Gar Sifu..I worked with him on The Wing Chun and he taught me Hung Gar..I had an interest in Hung gar pole..I'm not a sifu in Hung Gar just a student so I don't promote it..Am just a Wing chun  guy who knows a little about Hung Gar..as well as a few other things. I really dont have any videos of me doing HG Pole..I had some private vidos on YouTube of me learning the pole form but know I cant access those vidoes as YouTube took control over my channel.


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## Martial D (Jan 3, 2022)

futsaowingchun said:


> Ive been practicing Wing Chun for 40 plus years and traned with many teachers..IMO to use the standard wing chun structure your talking about is slow and weak because is not move in a natural way. The way i move my elbow is a natural way and is much stronger then keeping your elbow close to the centerline. I could clospe that very easy..Its structurally very weak.


So what you seem to be saying is that you are throwing out the core WC structure and replacing it with... nothing (since you seem to be saying elbow alignment doesn't matter)

Well best of luck with all that. Could be a hard sell to anyone that understands the system though.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 3, 2022)

futsaowingchun said:


> I did not learn the HG pole from Henry, but my si-dai who is a Hung Gar Sifu..I worked with him on The Wing Chun and he taught me Hung Gar..I had an interest in Hung gar pole..I'm not a sifu in Hung Gar just a student so I don't promote it..Am just a Wing chun  guy who knows a little about Hung Gar..as well as a few other things. I really dont have any videos of me doing HG Pole..I had some private vidos on YouTube of me learning the pole form but know I cant access those vidoes as YouTube took control over my channel.


Let's fill in some blanks, then. Hung Kuen is a massive system compared to Wing Chun.  This is a good opportunity for you to expand your perspective.

What parts of Hung Ga were you taught, and which staff sets?  Was it village Hung, Hasayfu, Wong family?

Depending on your answer, you may have learned a canonical staff form, or a non canonical one that got Borged in.


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## wckf92 (Jan 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Let's fill in some blanks, then. Hung Kuen is a massive system compared to Wing Chun.  This is a good opportunity for you to expand your perspective.
> 
> What parts of Hung Ga were you taught, and which staff sets?  Was it village Hung, Hasayfu, Wong family?
> 
> Depending on your answer, you may have learned a canonical staff form, or a non canonical one that got Borged in.



Are you saying that "Hung Gar" is the same thing as "Hung Kuen"? Just curious if the two terms are synonomous?


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## Callen (Jan 3, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Are you saying that "Hung Gar" is the same thing as "Hung Kuen"? Just curious if the two terms are synonomous?


Yes. Hung Gar, Hung Ga, Hung Kuen, Hung Gar Kuen and Hung Ga Kuen are different iterations that point to the same style, with slight differences between the groups who use them.

Originally it was Hung Family Boxing but it was eventually shortened to Hung Ga ( 洪家 ), which literally means "hung family". Hung Kuen ( 洪拳 ) means "large/immense fist". Hung Ga Kuen ( 洪家拳 ) is both terms put together; so it is somewhat meaningless and redundant when translated into English.


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## wckf92 (Jan 3, 2022)

Callen said:


> Yes. Hung Gar, Hung Ga, Hung Kuen, Hung Gar Kuen and Hung Ga Kuen are different iterations that point to the same style, with slight differences between the groups who use them.
> 
> Originally it was Hung Family Boxing but it was eventually shortened to Hung Ga ( 洪家 ), which literally means "hung family". Hung Kuen ( 洪拳 ) means "large/immense fist". Hung Ga Kuen ( 洪家拳 ) is both terms put together; so it is somewhat meaningless and redundant when translated into English.


Thanks Callen!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2022)

Callen said:


> Yes. Hung Gar, Hung Ga, Hung Kuen, Hung Gar Kuen and Hung Ga Kuen are different iterations that point to the same style, with slight differences between the groups who use them.
> 
> Originally it was Hung Family Boxing but it was eventually shortened to Hung Ga ( 洪家 ), which literally means "hung family". Hung Kuen ( 洪拳 ) means "large/immense fist". Hung Ga Kuen ( 洪家拳 ) is both terms put together; so it is somewhat meaningless and redundant when translated into English.


I was told the Hung Chuan was the only long fist branch (besides Cha, Hua, Tan, and Pao) that moved from north to south.


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## Callen (Jan 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I was told the Hung Chuan was the only long fist branch (besides Cha, Hua, Tan, and Pao) that moved from north to south.


That's my understanding as well. Either by way of Shaolin, secret martial art societies, or directly from Hong Xi Guan. It would seem that how it originated is somewhat uncertain, but once Hong Quan made it to the south it was known as Hong Jia Quan, or Hung Ga in Cantonese.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 3, 2022)

Callen said:


> Yes. Hung Gar, Hung Ga, Hung Kuen, Hung Gar Kuen and Hung Ga Kuen are different iterations that point to the same style, with slight differences between the groups who use them.
> 
> Originally it was Hung Family Boxing but it was eventually shortened to Hung Ga ( 洪家 ), which literally means "hung family". Hung Kuen ( 洪拳 ) means "large/immense fist". Hung Ga Kuen ( 洪家拳 ) is both terms put together; so it is somewhat meaningless and redundant when translated into English.



Sort of.   There are many levels of "Hung/Hong" Fist.

Hung Ga Kuen is different from the village Hung styles.  It's specific to the Five Family style of Hung Hei Gun, who happened to have that same name.  All the Hung Ga Kuen family lineages are limited to Wong Fei Hung, Lam Sai Wing, or Dang Fong.

Hung Kuen includes that, plus all the village Hung styles and descendant styles like....Snake Crane and Dragon systems.  These aren't Hung Ga Kuen.

Even further down are the "Hong" styles like the Red Flood Fist.  They are the oldest of all.  "Hung" is a name inside a name.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I was told the Hung Chuan was the only long fist branch (besides Cha, Hua, Tan, and Pao) that moved from north to south.


If that's true, Tid Kiu Saam is my hero.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Let's fill in some blanks, then. Hung Kuen is a massive system compared to Wing Chun.  This is a good opportunity for you to expand your perspective.
> 
> What parts of Hung Ga were you taught, and which staff sets?  Was it village Hung, Hasayfu, Wong family?
> 
> Depending on your answer, you may have learned a canonical staff form, or a non canonical one that got Borged in.


I learnt only the basics.. Gung gee fuk fu and the pole ..its from the Wong Fei Hong lineage..


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