# Penn & Teller Flag burning...



## Cruentus (Jan 20, 2008)

From one of their acts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETiXXf0ZqRQ&feature=related

From West Wing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NymRecFWgAs&NR=1

With all the talk lately of respect for the flag and patriotism, what are your opinions of the act and their take on things...?

C.


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## jks9199 (Jan 20, 2008)

I think it's a great act.  I think they make a great point.

I despise people burning the US flag as a protest.  I generally disagree with their points of view as well.  But I can't help but consider that the countries that prohibit verbal or symbolic attacks on the government tend to be rather totalitarian...  

I believe it was Patrick Henry who made the statement along the lines of "I disagree with what you say -- but will defend your right to say it with my life."  I get worried when we get so locked up on protecting a symbol that we forget what it stands for...


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 20, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I believe it was Patrick Henry who made the statement along the lines of "I disagree with what you say -- but will defend your right to say it with my life." .


 

Voltaire.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 20, 2008)

Well....

What could I, as someone who wears it on 2 uniforms, say of this treatment of the Flag.

Politically speaking I won't argue for a law or Constitutional amendment banning it.

But I do indeed wish these people, if they must perform this ungrateful idiotic act, would burn them the CORRECT way.

You're supposed to soak it in napalm and wrap yourself in it BEFORE you light up.


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## Tez3 (Jan 20, 2008)

Burning our flag doesn't seem to attract the same emotional response with us as it does with Americans with theirs, probably because everyone at some time or another has had a go at burning it since 1606 when the first form of it was used. Mmm that will be all you lot out there then lol!


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## michaeledward (Jan 20, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> what are your opinions of the act and their take on things...?


 
I am moved to tears and burst with pride for my country, and the wisdom of Mr. Jefferson, and Mr. Madison, each time I see this act. It is heroic in a way that is seldom seen in this country. 

It reminds me of Mr. Franklin's words; 'we must all hang together, or we shall surely all hang seperately'.


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## Cruentus (Jan 20, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I think it's a great act.  I think they make a great point.
> 
> I despise people burning the US flag as a protest.  I generally disagree with their points of view as well.  But I can't help but consider that the countries that prohibit verbal or symbolic attacks on the government tend to be rather totalitarian...



Yup... I agree.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 20, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> But I do indeed wish these people, if they must perform this ungrateful idiotic act, would burn them the CORRECT way.



Really listen to what they are saying in their act.  Ungrateful is a word that doesn't apply.



Andy Moynihan said:


> You're supposed to soak it in napalm and wrap yourself in it BEFORE you light up.



Charming.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 20, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Really listen to what they are saying in their act. Ungrateful is a word that doesn't apply.
> .


 
I'm not referring to Penn and Teller or their act. Penn and Teller have *nothing* to do with what I said. I have met and had the misfortune to be within talking distance of the *real* idiots who do such things. If you have chosen to believe that P&T's act accurately represents the majority of flag burners then you have chosen unwisely.




Empty Hands said:


> Charming.


 
What? It's the perfect solution:

*Those who wanted to see a flag burn have seen it.

*The idiot who wanted to make whatever statement he/she did has now not only made it but gets to be a martyr for his/her cause into the bargain.

*The rest of the normal people can go about their business knowing that at least one more undesirable member of society has been handily culled from their ranks.

Everybody's happy, everyone wins.


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## grydth (Jan 20, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I think it's a great act.  I think they make a great point.
> 
> I despise people burning the US flag as a protest.  I generally disagree with their points of view as well.  But I can't help but consider that the countries that prohibit verbal or symbolic attacks on the government tend to be rather totalitarian...
> 
> I believe it was Patrick Henry who made the statement along the lines of "I disagree with what you say -- but will defend your right to say it with my life."  I get worried when we get so locked up on protecting a symbol that we forget what it stands for...



Sometimes a person before you hits the target so cleanly that all there remains to do is.... "What he said."


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## Empty Hands (Jan 20, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I'm not referring to Penn and Teller or their act. Penn and Teller have *nothing* to do with what I said.



Well, you might want to edit the post I responded to then to say so.  Your intentions were not at all clear.



Andy Moynihan said:


> If you have chosen to believe that P&T's act accurately represents the majority of flag burners then you have chosen unwisely.



Now, where did I say that?  I know very well that P&T's act is pretty unique.

I will say this though about all the "idiots."  If you really believed - and I mean _really _believed - that the US was a fascist nation, would you really be adverse to burning the flag in protest?  Their misconceptions are what is wrong, not the flag burning.



Andy Moynihan said:


> What? It's the perfect solution:



I'm just going to go ahead and believe that you were being sarcastic.  The alternative is too unpleasant to contemplate.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 20, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Well, you might want to edit the post I responded to then to say so. Your intentions were not at all clear.


 
Wanted to do so but my edit time had timed out.




> Now, where did I say that? I know very well that P&T's act is pretty unique.


 
Fair enough.



> I will say this though about all the "idiots." If you really believed - and I mean _really _believed - that the US was a fascist nation, would you really be adverse to burning the flag in protest? Their misconceptions are what is wrong, not the flag burning.


 
If I believed, and I mean _really_ believed, that the US was a fascist nation I would not continue to live here, much less wear its flag. 





> I'm just going to go ahead and believe that you were being sarcastic. The alternative is too unpleasant to contemplate.


 
You believe correctly.


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## CoryKS (Jan 20, 2008)

grydth said:


> Sometimes a person before you hits the target so cleanly that all there remains to do is.... "What he said."


 
Ditto.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 20, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> If I believed, and I mean _really_ believed, that the US was a fascist nation I would not continue to live here, much less wear its flag.



Well, I give them credit for sticking around and trying to change things for the better, as they see it.  I don't go along with anything they believe either, but I do hope I would have that courage if I really thought I was living in the next Nazi Germany.



Andy Moynihan said:


> You believe correctly.



*whew*


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I think it's a great act.  I think they make a great point.
> 
> I despise people burning the US flag as a protest.  I generally disagree with their points of view as well.  But I can't help but consider that the countries that prohibit verbal or symbolic attacks on the government tend to be rather totalitarian...



Yup, there ya go. What's worse than burning your own flag? Having your own govt. tell you that you _can't_. I'll take freedom instead, thanks. If you're not free to do this--are you really free?


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## LawDog (Jan 20, 2008)

Many of my friends died under that flag,
Most of my fathers friends also died under that flag.
When someone burns our flag, for whatever reason, I see my friends and my father sees his.


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## jks9199 (Jan 20, 2008)

LawDog said:


> Many of my friends died under that flag,
> Most of my fathers friends also died under that flag.
> When someone burns our flag, for whatever reason, I see my friends and my father sees his.


I want to make something very clear.

I do not agree with burning the flag as a protest.  I also don't agree with burning people in effigy.

To me, too many people have put their life, their liberty, and their own freedom at hazard so that we at home can enjoy the privileges of freedom and liberty.  Whatever your opinion of the current government (ours does change with great frequency) -- I believe those men and women, and their sacrifices, deserve respect.  And, by extension, the country that provides those liberties to us deserves respect.

But I fear what follows if we place the symbol above what that symbol stands for; a nation founded on the ideals of equality and freedom.  The first nation to truly spell out the relationship between the government and governed, and to place limits on the power of the government.  One of the very first amendments addressed not only the right to speak out, as well as the right to gather to do so, but also the right to confront the government when you believe it is wrong.  So long as the methods chosen are within broad, but reasonable bounds of civilized conduct -- I can't say I want to see them restricted.  I'd rather error on the side of accepting something uncivilized than restricting speech, especially speech against the government.

Multiple courts, in many different states, have held that I, as a police officer, have to accept words, insults, and actions directed at me which would ordinarily be seen as offensive enough to justify a breach of the peace or assault.  I don't like this -- but I see what I believe is the underlying principle; a police officer is the hand of government.  We have the unique authority and ability to deprive someone of their liberty, up to the extreme of using lethal force against them, solely on our instant judgement.  That is, literally, awesome power, and it must be carefully restricted.  (I leave it as an exercise for the student to consider that the courts have not restricted themselves nearly so tightly...  Contempt of court is a wide & loose charge.)  In a similar manner, infringement upon speech must be carefully weighed, and only imposed against the most extreme measures.

(Of course -- none of these ideals would prevent me from, for example, charging someone silly enough to burn a flag in my presence with an unauthorized open fire, or throwing injurious materials upon the roadway, or littering, or some other appropriate charge for their actions.)


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## Cruentus (Jan 20, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Well, I give them credit for sticking around and trying to change things for the better, as they see it.  I don't go along with anything they believe either, but I do hope I would have that courage if I really thought I was living in the next Nazi Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> *whew*



I don't, because I don't see how flag burning and protesting to the level of illogic and near violence that some of these people do amounts to trying to change things for the better. But that is just my take on it...


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## Cruentus (Jan 20, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Yup, there ya go. What's worse than burning your own flag? Having your own govt. tell you that you _can't_. I'll take freedom instead, thanks. If you're not free to do this--are you really free?



And just to clarify my stance, I agree that people should have free speech, and should have the freedom to burn the flag in protest if they wish.

However, I also have the freedom of speech and thought to not like it one bit.


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> And just to clarify my stance, I agree that people should have free speech, and should have the freedom to burn the flag in protest if they wish.
> 
> However, I also have the freedom of speech and thought to not like it one bit.



Full agreement, dude. There are a lot of things a person can legally do that'd get them banned from crossing my doorstep. "It was legal" is a mighty weak defense to anything other than the threat of incarceration. I'm OK with shunning jerks.

I think *jks9199 *makes the point very well. If you really believe your govt. is in the wrong, you should be able to try to get its attention. If you believe it's extremely wrong, perhaps you'll think this is the way to do so. Would you have been willing to burn a flag over slavery in Georgia in 1842? A confederate flag if you had lived in Georgia in 1862? It's just not so simple.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 20, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> And just to clarify my stance, I agree that people should have free speech, and should have the freedom to burn the flag in protest if they wish.
> 
> However, I also have the freedom of speech and thought to not like it one bit.



The flag means different things to different people 'round here, obviously. I don't agree with everyone, but I defend their right to speak their mind.  I still love my country, and respect and believe what the United States was founded on. Myself, I wouldn't burn the Flag except to dispose of it with the proper respect and ceremony, but if things get too much worse around here, I may hang mine upside down...


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## Cruentus (Jan 20, 2008)

I don't disagree with anything you guys have said here.

I just think that there are better ways to get a point across rather then to burn flags and vehemently protest. Writing articles, enlisting and serving your community or country (be it military or volunteer guard or firefighter or whatever), working on election campaigns, running for office (like city council for example), writing letters, sending money to organizations to lobby for your cause, and so forth are all positive things that people could do. Hell, Penn & Teller used their act to make a great point. And we can do these things because we have our freedoms and 1st amendment rights.

If everyone that had a ***** got out there and actually did something positive about it, how much better would our country be?

But instead, some people want to waste their 1st amendment rights on flag burning and vehement protests that seem to only serve to close off the discussion rather then  produce any positive results?

I think that there are far better things that can be done with our freedoms, that's all...


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## Archangel M (Jan 20, 2008)

I think the right to burn the flag is a beautiful thing.

I think those who burn the flag are scumbags.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 21, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> I think the right to burn the flag is a beautiful thing.
> 
> I think those who burn the flag are scumbags.



THAT should be a bumper sticker. No, a tshirt.


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## Tez3 (Jan 21, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> I think the right to burn the flag is a beautiful thing.
> 
> I think those who burn the flag are scumbags.


 
Succinctly put! A flag is just a symbol and while it winds people up other people will continue to burn it. If you shrug and say well it's just a piece of material, you can't burn my beliefs you will come out as the bigger person. Someone said there are better ways to protest, of course there are but for as long as it makes people angry the demonstrators will burn flags and effigies. In this world with instant media it's the quickest way to make a show of hate or disapproval.
Flags quite frankly are transient, they change. How many flags has your country had in it's history? You had our Union Flag ( not a Union Jack as people like to call it) can you say your people didn't burn it? Then you had your flags during the Civil War, your current flag changed as you acquired territory. I believe the Hawaii State flag still retains the British Union flag on it. We have flags for most organisations and most commercial companies have a flag, to say flags can't be burnt would be to take away your rights.
People didn't die for a flag they died for a principle and a basic human right, freedom. They died to make a freer world, to allow us to live and thrive in a free world. To be able to express our opinions and to live without fear, if a flag is burnt don't get upset, just say well it's a freedom we are allowed and many aren't. Can you imagine burning a flag in Nazi Germany, the old USSR and many mordern countries?  We don't have to like it at all but burning a flag is also a symbol of freedom. Can you also honestly say you wouldn't burn someone else's such as Saddam's or Osama Bin Ladens? If you saw someone burning Iraq's, Syria's etc flags would you stop them on the same principle you'd want to stop someone burning yours? It's a small price of freedom that we allow people who disagree with us to voice that disagreement.
If you see someone burning your flag, say well I don't like it but hey man, we have a FREE country and glory in that fact, it's very precious.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 21, 2008)

That was a good precis of the concept, *Archangel* :tup:.

An excellent post from *Jks* (amongst others) above, which states very nicely the point I was unsuccessfully trying to make in another thread a couple of days ago.

I'm heartened to read the general rationales behind the stances taken on this issue too.  Understanding why someone believes what they do may not change anothers views but makes it much easier to avoid stepping on toes unnecessarily.


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