# Universal Pattern



## RCastillo (Mar 24, 2002)

Is the "Pattern copyrighted by the IKKA? If not, I hope someone will put out some shirts like that. I'd like to have a few!


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## Rainman (Mar 24, 2002)

Some people have it in their crests such as Bob White and Mohammed Tabatabai.  I am not sure of copywrite laws or how long they may last for the u_p.  I have also seen some crests that remove the outer circle or add another ring or 2 for slight alteration.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

Does anyone have Tabatabati's website address?

thanks in advance.
:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 24, 2002)

There is a crest company out of New Jersey that offers the universal pattern crests.  And amny companys offer the version with word kenpo running through the crest.


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## Kirk (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *Is the "Pattern copyrighted by the IKKA? If not, I hope someone will put out some shirts like that. I'd like to have a few! *



Oh man, that'd be TOO cool!  I'd love to have a black t-shirt, with
a HUGE one on the front.  I'd also love to have a golf shirt with
the crest on one side, embroidered in.  HEY!  Or one with a 
whole bunch of them scattered all over the shirt.


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## RCastillo (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



There you go, a man with my own taste. That's what Im talking about! Now if only some one would produce them!


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## Kirk (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *There you go, a man with my own taste. That's what Im talking about! Now if only some one would produce them! *




Hmmm .... let me do some research.  I'm always looking for ways
to make a little extra money.  Which would you like to see first?

Hmmm .. I wonder how well a biz like Century would do selling
only kenpo stuff?


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## RCastillo (Mar 24, 2002)

A black T, or Golf shirt, but a problem exists. I'm told that the Universal Pattern is copyrighted by the Parker Estate! Now what???


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## Kirk (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *A black T, or Golf shirt, but a problem exists. I'm told that the Universal Pattern is copyrighted by the Parker Estate! Now what??? *




Pay the fee!  I'm sure they'd license the right to use the pattern,
just like they do on the patches.  I'll call tomorrow and ask about
paying royalties.  Through that into the price of the shirt.  Let's
hope it's reasonable.


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## RCastillo (Mar 24, 2002)

You da man!


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## Klondike93 (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Does anyone have Tabatabati's website address?
> 
> ...



Yes, if any one has a it please post it.

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 24, 2002)

I have seenthe universal pattern used in a logo before.


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## alan libby (Mar 25, 2002)

Woodland Hills Kenpo Karate
20929 Ventura Blvd. 
#26 Woodland Hills, California
91364 Ph. (818) 992-6610 
Instructor: Mohammed Tabatabai, 6th black 
www.uskka.com

Will this do?

In Full Respect,
AL


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 25, 2002)

have a personal web site as well as uskka's?
:asian:


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## alan libby (Mar 25, 2002)

I don't know....I found that on a Google Search and stopped when I found it.  Ther may be a link in the website itself, I did not check that.
In Full Respect,
Sherry Libby


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 25, 2002)

Just checking if anyone had a lock on him.   I can check the site more thoroughly.

Thanks again for your help.....
I owe you one!
:asian:


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## AvPKenpo (Mar 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *I have seenthe universal pattern used in a logo before. *



ROFLMBO

Thats funny, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......where have I seen that before.   LOL

Michael


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## vincefuess (Mar 25, 2002)

Any more than a circle, square or triangle.

Vince


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## Klondike93 (Mar 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Just checking if anyone had a lock on him.   I can check the site more thoroughly.
> 
> ...



Do you know Mr. Tabatabai personaly GD?

What do you think of his videos, I have a few and think they're not too bad.

:asian:


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 25, 2002)

any original work can be copyrighted


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## alan libby (Mar 25, 2002)

But an idea cannot, and the pattern is useless to those who don't know what it is or how to use it...It can be the physical doorway to a spiritual enlightening...
In Full Respect,
Sherry Libby


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 25, 2002)

Copyright expire in time, usually 25 yrs.  I wold suggest contacting the IKKA and  I would also look into copyright laws.  it should be public record when the copyright on the Universal patterns expires if it hasn't already.


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 25, 2002)

ummm actually i happen to know a little about copyright law and the current law states that a copyright is valid for 25 years after the death of the last copyright holder... and a copyright can be transfered in a will... and if it is copyrighted to a corporation such as lets say the golden archs for mcdonalds then the copyright can potentially last forever... you dont have to file for a new copyright ever so often like they used to 40 years ago... copyrights last for the life of the holder plus 25 years... and yes an idea can be copyrighted if the universal pattern was ever explained in specific terms and placed on a tangible material such as audio or video tape or paper then it is copyrightable and can be done so simply by mailing it to yourself... however a copyright becomes void if the item no longer fits the criteria for a copyright or becomes common language... by becoming common use or language i mean things like the term Xerox, or Coke, or yellow pages, those are a few recent ones that can no longer be copyrighted... yet at one time they were... yeah i know all of its a little confusing... but they tried to make it easy to copyright anything so that people were not getting screwed out of money:shrug:


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## Kirk (Mar 26, 2002)

*Here Is A Transcript Of My Phone Call To The IKKA*   

*Me: Hello, My name is Kirk,  I'm calling about the universal pattern .. what one could do to get a license to reproduce it?*  

*IKKA: You want to be able to use it? * 

*Me: Yes Ma'am*  

*IKKA: Let me put Mrs. Parker on the phone*  

*Me: Okay*  

**brief wait** 

*Mrs. Parker: Hello?*  

*Me: I called about the universal pattern .. what one could do to get a license to reproduce it?*  

*Mrs. Parker: YOU WANNA REPRODUCE IT?!?!?!"*  

*Me: Yes Ma'am*  

*Mrs. Parker: WELL YOU CAN'T!!!!!!!*  

*Me: well I certainly wasn't expecting to reproduce it for free*  

*Mrs. Parker: YOU CAN'T REPRODUCE IT AT ALL, OR I'LL SUE YOU!!!!!!!!!*  

**click* - hangup* 

*______________________* 

How rude was that?!??!?

Here's the first thing that came to me in my moment of HIGH shock, and the beginnings of low rage. ... I'm a potential studio owner.  It's a current dream of mine to advance enough to own
my own school .. be it part time or full time.

On 1 hand there's Mr Conaster going 
"hey, as soon as you're ready, and qualified, my organization will do what it can help get you started."  (TO A LOWLY YELLOW BELT)

And on the other hand, there's Mrs. Parker going
"K.M.A!!!!!!!!!"

Well, thanks for steering me in the right direction for when the
time comes, Ma'am!


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## fist of fury (Mar 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Here Is A Transcript Of My Phone Call To The IKKA
> 
> ...



Wow I'm not even a kempoist and that pisses me off!


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 26, 2002)

well that was really rude and narrow minded dont ya think... i mean not even willing to let you explain what you wanted to do... damn thats just messed up


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## Kirk (Mar 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan _
> 
> *well that was really rude and narrow minded dont ya think... i mean not even willing to let you explain what you wanted to do... damn thats just messed up *




It's on this thread, read back a little 

I'm still in shock of this whole thing!


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 26, 2002)

ummm ive been reading the thread lol i was saying it was kinda mean of her to not even listen to what you wanted to do with the pattern... kinda narrow minded and rude of her


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## RCastillo (Mar 26, 2002)

Gee, I feel bad now for even suggesting it, and totally knocked for a loop in terms of what happened to you. I'll go out on a branch again,and suggest this, what would Ed Parker Jr. say???


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## Kirk (Mar 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *Gee, I feel bad now for even suggesting it, and totally knocked for a loop in terms of what happened to you. I'll go out on a branch again,and suggest this, what would Ed Parker Jr. say??? *



After the experience I just had, I'm afraid to ask!  We need to
put our heads together and come up with some kick *** logo, that symbolizes kenpo. ... Make it public domain.


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## fist of fury (Mar 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



How about a pic of mrs parker with a line drawn through it.



no disrespect to Gm parker intended.


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## Kirk (Mar 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *I would suggest contacting the IKKA and  I would also look into copyright laws. *




Thanks a bunch for the suggestion Rob!   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

J/K !!!!!!


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## fist of fury (Mar 27, 2002)

Wow I'm surprised thier hasn't been more feed back about kirks phone conversation.


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## Roland (Mar 27, 2002)

let this thing with Mrs. Parker alone. The whole family has enough problems, and I know that what was said and done was just an accident. Please do not take it personally.
 The Universal Symbol is not copyrighted at all, just use it with respect is all anyone can ask!
Thank you for taking the time to call and ask, I am sorry it was such a bad experience for you. We all know that you were trying to do the right thing.
Thank you also for having the consideration to read this post.
Take care.


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## Kirk (Mar 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> 
> *let this thing with Mrs. Parker alone. The whole family has enough problems, and I know that what was said and done was just an accident. Please do not take it personally.
> The Universal Symbol is not copyrighted at all, just use it with respect is all anyone can ask!
> ...



I don't understand.  First off, how do you know it was an 
accident?  It sounded pretty intentional to me, since she started
yelling at me the second I asked about it.  I don't mean to sound
harsh, but I'm curious .. how do you know?  

Secondly, I haven't been able to find proof that it's not 
copywritten.  By using it (respect was ALWAYS intended, I'm a 
kenpoist) I can put myself into pretty serious jeopardy.

Thanks for replying, and it's not my intention to sound mean at
all.


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## Ronin (Mar 27, 2002)

You know I had a negative experience with mrs parker as well.   I called to order a few Parker books and I was asked for My IKKA membership number. I was refused the books since I was no longer a member and with the IKKO.  Go figure


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## vincefuess (Mar 27, 2002)

I wear the pattern on every uniform I wear, not to mention the fact that I wear the IKKA patch on MOST of my uniforms.  They signify my heritage.  If ya wanna sue me for being proud of my MA heritage then get yo' self a lawyer and go to town.  Even if you get me for all I've got, you surely spent more than you got.  More power to ya!!

I'm not gonna ask for permission for what I wear on my own uniform- it's my own choice.  As for what I will use in advertising what I teach- catch me, sue me, do what you will.  No biggie.

If folks get their feelings hurt over such small issues then that is their problem, not mine.  Life has bigger concerns.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 27, 2002)

It was NO accident.  She is just reacting to what appears to be an attack on her Husbands estate and patch that he designed and used.  What would you expect!  Listen to others and realize that the pattern has been used several times by many sources and even if you did have a CR  you would have to defend it and not let everyone use  it.  It for over 2o years has went unprotected and many use it today.

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Mar 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *I wear the pattern on every uniform I wear, not to mention the fact that I wear the IKKA patch on MOST of my uniforms.  They signify my heritage.  If ya wanna sue me for being proud of my MA heritage then get yo' self a lawyer and go to town.  Even if you get me for all I've got, you surely spent more than you got.  More power to ya!!
> 
> ...



Well, I asked Mr. Conatser sometime back if I could wear the patch on my uniform, and I got slapped to the floor for it. When I asked him if I did something wrong, he caved my chest in! Ouch!
Moral of this story, be careful when you ask Mr. Conatser anyrthing


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## warriorsage (Mar 27, 2002)

I recently designed a new line of kenpo shirts. The front has the text "got kenpo?" and the back has a logo I designed. The logo is inspired by Mr. Parker, the universal symbol, and many other sources. The key here for my peace of mind are the words  "inspired by", since I did all the artwork myself. To me, if someone in the IKKA thinks they can sue me for my design efforts, I say come and get it. I didn't download the graphic from them, didn't scan or copy it from any of their material. I recreated my own version of it. The universal pattern makes up a very small portion of the overall design and of that portion, maybe only 40% of it is visable. I'd post a pic of it but don't want the kenpogods to seize my computer.

And what about using the phrase "got kenpo?", are the folks from the milk ad campaign coming after me (and everyone else who has jumped on the silly catch phrase as well I might add) too?? To steal a line from "Fletch"..."Now, any of your D.C. boys want to make something out of that, bring 'em on. Otherwise tell your commission to get the he** out of my face."


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## alan libby (Mar 27, 2002)

To Whom it may concern...
Just in case it may not be known, like many other things in the Martial Arts there are different versions of the Universal Pattern.  These variations have some of the triangles, squares and junction added or removed.  If one looks closely enough within the Patterns one can see the differences.  The variations in the pattern are similar to the variations in the Art of Kem(n)po.  They have all come from the same root place,  they have just changed as the people within the Styles have changed.

One can find the Universal Pattern patch in Asian World of Martial Arts (www.awma.com), Century Martial Arts (www.centuryma.com), www.winghopfung.com or Oriental Gateway. 
In full Respect, Alan Libby


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## Kirk (Mar 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by warriorsage _
> 
> *I recently designed a new line of kenpo shirts. The front has the text "got kenpo?" and the back has a logo I designed. The logo is inspired by Mr. Parker, the universal symbol, and many other sources. The key here for my peace of mind are the words  "inspired by", since I did all the artwork myself. To me, if someone in the IKKA thinks they can sue me for my design efforts, I say come and get it. I didn't download the graphic from them, didn't scan or copy it from any of their material. I recreated my own version of it. The universal pattern makes up a very small portion of the overall design and of that portion, maybe only 40% of it is visable. I'd post a pic of it but don't want the kenpogods to seize my computer.
> 
> And what about using the phrase "got kenpo?", are the folks from the milk ad campaign coming after me (and everyone else who has jumped on the silly catch phrase as well I might add) too?? To steal a line from "Fletch"..."Now, any of your D.C. boys want to make something out of that, bring 'em on. Otherwise tell your commission to get the he** out of my face." *



Do you have an online catelog?  That's how this all started, I'm
having trouble finding things out there, other than coffee cups,
and a hat that says "Kenpo".  

I want to start something selling items online, and use profits
to sponsor a kenpo camp


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## warriorsage (Mar 27, 2002)

Email me at warriorsage@yahoo.com or visit my website at WarriorSage.net

There is no catalog, just some generic info on what I do. There are some sample pic's of decals, banners, etc and I will add a photo of the shirt as well.

Note to the administrators: if this is post is considered inappropriate or "commercial" feel free to delete or modify it as you see fit.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 27, 2002)

ANYTHING THE SAGE DOES FOR YOU WILL BE AWESOME!  You just have to send him great art work to work with!!

He has made several things for me and each has been wonderful.

And his price is right also!!

:asian: 

So let the orders begin...................


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## warriorsage (Mar 27, 2002)

Mr. Conatser. Don't you know flattery will get you everywhere?! I'm still waiting (it's been a couple years now) for that high res black & white print of your patch. tick tock, tick tock....


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *ANYTHING THE SAGE DOES FOR YOU WILL BE AWESOME!  You just have to send him great art work to work with!!
> 
> ...



I agree wholeheartedly.  Warriorsage did up my logo for me based upon what I was looking for,and then he sent me an amzing decal of it form my car.  This is the gut to see about getting your custom stuff done up.


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## Kirk (Mar 28, 2002)

Mr. C ...  my instructor (you said you've met him, Curtis Abernathy)
pronounces your last name differently than I've been reading it.
Do you remember him addressing you, using your last name?

I pronounce it like Con - ah - stir ... the ah sound being the same
in the word awesome.

He pronounced it like Con - ay - stir .. the ay sound being the
same as in the word Asexual reproduction. 


Hmm .. asexual reproduction ... reproduction without sex .. I
wonder who first thought of that?


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## vincefuess (Mar 28, 2002)

Now that was a very strange juxtaposition, Kirk.  I will make no further comment, lest I be left in the wake as well....

:rofl:


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## Ronin (Mar 28, 2002)

Con-at-sir  is how it should sound


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## vincefuess (Mar 28, 2002)

Thank You Sir! :asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> 
> *Con-at-sir  is how it should sound *



If I only had a braaaaaain!

Just like it's written! SHEESH!


Reading Is Fundamental


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 28, 2002)

Yes, the great mis pronouncing of my name lives on....... lol

Con....... at (as in cat)  ......... ser.....    Con at ser

:asian:


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## vincefuess (Mar 28, 2002)

Imagine going through life with the surname FUESS.  I'll send a crisp, new $10 bill to the first person (who doesn't know me) to GUESS the correct pronunciation of my last name.  NO JOKE!

(Hell- even folks who'v known me my whole life get it wrong)


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## Kirk (Mar 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *Imagine going through life with the surname FUESS.  I'll send a crisp, new $10 bill to the first person (who doesn't know me) to GUESS the correct pronunciation of my last name.  NO JOKE!
> 
> (Hell- even folks who'v known me my whole life get it wrong) *




I've been reading it as "FUSE"


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## Klondike93 (Mar 28, 2002)

I'll try, "face" maybe?


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## vincefuess (Mar 29, 2002)

GOODBYE.


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## Kirk (Mar 29, 2002)

Fwess?





Oh, by the way VINCE   ... Huk's coming to my school next
month.  You should come down.


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## vincefuess (Mar 29, 2002)

When is it??  I'll be in the area the weekend of April 13- my niece is is getting married on the Blanco River in Wimberley, which I believe is pretty close to SAT.  If I can work it all together, I'll certainly try to make it!


But on the name- BRRRRRAAAAPPPPPPPP!!!! WRONG!


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## fist of fury (Mar 29, 2002)

I just thought it was pronounced fess simialr in pronunciation to the word guess.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *Imagine going through life with the surname FUESS.  I'll send a crisp, new $10 bill to the first person (who doesn't know me) to GUESS the correct pronunciation of my last name.  NO JOKE!
> 
> (Hell- even folks who'v known me my whole life get it wrong) *




He gave you a clue, it will rhyme with GUESS,  if I am correct the "U" is silent.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 30, 2002)

It must be ................... "Fess"   

come on Vince ........ Fess up!

:rofl:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 30, 2002)

I'm the weakest link, I don't have clue   

Talk or face Lord Kenpovader

:jediduel: 


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 30, 2002)

Let us know ....... Im sitting on the edge of my chair!:asian: :rofl:


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## AvPKenpo (Mar 30, 2002)

Hmmm...........  me thinks it is    Foo-ess.

Michael


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## KenpoGirl (Mar 30, 2002)

I vote for "Few-ess"

Hell and I'm canadian If I win that 10 bucks is like 100 up here!!!!


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 30, 2002)

Now Vince ducks out just when I win 10 Bucks!

I hate it when that happens!
:rofl:


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## Kirk (Mar 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *I agree wholeheartedly.  Warriorsage did up my logo for me based upon what I was looking for,and then he sent me an amzing decal of it form my car.  This is the gut to see about getting your custom stuff done up. *



I wouldn't want to walk around with a shirt that says, "I study
kenpo karate" or "I'm learning to kick ***" ... but I wouldn't mind
wearing a shirt that would tell other kenpoists "hey, I'm one of
 you" yet no one else knowing what it means.   Anyone have any 
ideas?


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## Blindside (Mar 31, 2002)

Kirk posted:

"but I wouldn't mind wearing a shirt that would tell other kenpoists "hey, I'm one of you" yet no one else knowing what it means. Anyone have any ideas?"

How about the design that Ricardo suggested that started this whole topic?  A t-shirt with the universal pattern done large centered on the front, or a bit more understated, done over the left breast.  Black with white print would be spiffy, or black with a silver print.  Anyone unfamiliar with kenpo would not understand the reference.   

Lamont


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## Kirk (Mar 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *Kirk posted:
> 
> ...



I love the suggestion.  It was a great idea when Ricardo 
suggested it, and it's still a great idea.  Just I was kind of hoping
I could maybe start a business of, doing something like this.
I dunno, novelty items and the like .. save enough coin to sponsor
a kenpo camp or something.  Most are suggesting that any use
of the universal symbol should be for myself, instead of producing
them for market.  The tooling cost of getting the universal 
pattern on 1 shirt is a bit pricey ... on 100 shirts that sell ... it's
dirt cheap.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 1, 2002)

"Hey, I'm one of you!"



:asian:


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## KenpoGirl (Apr 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> How rude was that?!??!?
> 
> ...



Kirk, I'd like to put my 2 cents in here.
I originally wasn't going to comment on your conversation with Mrs. Parker, but a good friend pointed out that as a friend of Ed Parker Jr's, I should have, and I regret my delay.

Please don't have a bad impression on Mrs. Parker.  You have to remember that this lady is in her late 60's at least.   As a person gets older they don't have the patience they might have had at one point in life.  Plus you have to remember health is also an issue, please give her the benefit of the doubt.  Also the respect of who she is.

You of course are allowed your own opinion on the matter.   I just wanted you to know that there is always a reason behind an action.

dot  :asian:


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## Kirk (Apr 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



No problem the matter's been dropped.  I just kind of had my 
hopes up.


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## RCastillo (Apr 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



 Not so fast, I still want tmy Universal pattern shirt!


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 6, 2002)

You Shall!
:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Apr 6, 2002)

I would like one too then!!!    


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 6, 2002)

Then Call me....... 480-483-0709:asian:


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## daniel_r (Apr 6, 2002)

Ive seen quite a few tshirts, sweatshirts etc etc with the pattern on... normally at Kenpo Competitions my sisters bought a couple at the last one we were at


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## AvPKenpo (Apr 7, 2002)

So can we use the Universal Pattern or not?  Or does it really matter as long as it is for the school and not for publication?

Michael


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## Kirk (Apr 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Then Call me....... 480-483-0709:asian: *




I did ... no answer!  :waah: :waah: :idunno:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 8, 2002)

Did you leave a message?       Ahemmmmmmm:shrug:
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Apr 8, 2002)

It's a long way from the bathroom, er "Library."


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## brianhunter (Apr 17, 2002)

so what was the result?? can it be used???


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 17, 2002)

Hi Folks,
I realize i'm new to this kenpo board but i'm not new to kenpo! I thought i'd address a pfew posts and answer some questions i saw posted here...
First of all,regarding the Universal pattern: The symbol is indeed copywrited to the best of my knowledge and originally appeared in the "Secrets of Chinese Karate" [SOCK] by Ed Parker. It was subsiquently used in Infinite insights into kenpo:Vol 4 extensively. As an earlier poster mentioned,copywrites are good for at least 25 years after the owner passes away,in Mr. Parker's case, that was 1990,so it will be 2015 before there is even a chance of clearing any possible copywrite. However, the parker family and the parker estate are the sole owners of the images,logos, tradmarks,and copywrites of Mr. Parker's crests,patterns,etc...
Members and studio owners of the International Kenpo Karate Association are allowed to use those images in exchange for being members of this organization. Mrs. Parker, as "President of the board of directors" of the IKKA, has endured numerous incidents of unscrupulous individuals who would rather steal an image than join an organization and wear it proudly. She has seen her husbands techniques that normally sold through IKKA manuals [one of her only sources of income,BTW] placed for free on the internet without her or the association's permission, her husbands crest used in a national advertisement campain selling videos of other individuals who no longer had any ties to mr parker, not to mention innumerous incidents where people who she had never met,let alone not being members of the association, make illegal copies of images her husband created.
She's had to persue legal action against many of the people because she simply wants to preserve her husbands work. So, with all due respect,Kirk, she doesn't know you from a hole in the wall and then you call out of the blue and as to use one of her husbands logos and you're not a an IKKA member or studio owner so obviously she's a little paranoid! Simply stated, her reaction may have come from the fact that she has had this done to her several times over the last 10 years + and she more than a little bitter about numerous incidents. If your conversation went exactly as you wrote it, then you really didn't properly introduce yourself to her and that may have started the ball rolling in the wrong direction. Please understand that this is her ONLY source of income and that she has been whittled away at so many incidents and people that she can be short and curt with people [myself included!!!] so you're not alone. 
On the other hand, "The Bold look" out of Florida, presently offers universal pattern T shirts for order and or sale to studios and individuals. However, do not order anything with the Chinese calligraphy for kenpo karate, as they have it turned BACKWARDS!!!
I was recently interviewing a certain high ranking kenpo studio owner and the person gave me one of his shirts. I recognized the reversed writing of the calligraphy and bit my tongue...
ok, now i'll get off my soapbox...:soapbox: 
I hope that I was of some service,
Joseph P. Rebelo II
KENPOJOE


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## Kirk (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> 
> *"The Bold look" out of Florida, presently offers universal pattern T shirts for order and or sale to studios and individuals.  *



Got a web address?


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## GouRonin (Apr 17, 2002)

There is no worldwide copyright of the universal symbol. It may be copyrighted to a state but at last check it was not in the continent of the USA nor globally. Different laws affect different states and countries.

Copyright infringement only takes place when the holder of said copyright takes legal action. More often than not the holder will usually settle out of court for a percentage of the profits or a payment. The only person you can sue anyway is the producer should they have had knowledge of the infringement and failing that, the person attempting to make a profit. You can't sue someone wearing the shirt.

Also, during bankruptcy copyright laws change. Remember Ed Parker did declare bankruptcy.

The current copyright laws on the IKKA symbol and possibly the universal symbol are limited at best. You can also use any symbol as long as it is altered 20% from it's original. Unless the symbol becomes synonymous with the product or concept in whcih case it becomes free market.

Better check the extent of the copyright Joe. It's not copyrighted here in Canada.


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## Roland (Apr 17, 2002)

Talked with Edmund Jr.
No copy right on the Pattern!

And yes, Bold Look does a lot of great stuff for Kenpo people.

:redeme:


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 18, 2002)

Gou Ronin [Doug] wrote...


> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *There is no worldwide copyright of the universal symbol. It may be copyrighted to a state but at last check it was not in the continent of the USA nor globally. Different laws affect different states and countries.
> 
> ...



In regards to the the copywrite issue, you can copywrite something on a national level in the case of the USA, although i'm certain you cannot do it on an international level. It also depends on what is actually being copywritten.
BTW, You can always do a "poor man's copywrite" which you send yourself a envelope with the ideas you created and mail it to yourself! The postmark will identify the the date of receipt so you can show WHEN approximately the idea was formulated!

in relation to the "suing someone selling the shirt", it's normally been people who have knowingly illegally used the images,names and copywritten material of Mr Parker who have either been sued or threatened with legal action.:hammer: 

BTW, How do you know that Mr. Parker filed for bankruptcy? Also, was it chapter 7 or 11? They are distinctly different.

In regards to the "20% rule", I agree wholeheartedly! There have been some fine example of creative art based on Mr. Parker's original ideas yet uniquely original in their scope. Even my school patch is based on my kenpo instructor's original emblem as a legacy to him.
However, I don't agree that his images warrant his material being considered "free market" items.

Gee Doug, you mean Joe Foster never copywrote the IKKA crest in Canada?

:::getting off my soapbox::::soapbox:
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
Rebelo's Kenpo Karate 
REBELOSKENPOKARATE.COM


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> 
> *Talked with Edmund Jr.
> No copy right on the Pattern!
> ...


Gee,Roland,
You actually bothered Edmund to ask him that? I'm sure he loved you for asking him about that one! 

The creator of the Bold Look's child was a kenpo student under Greg Silva and started making uniforms...and the rest is history!

But I know i'd be pissed off if I found out that the kenpo embroidery on my Black Belt was on backwards,though!!!

BTW, I've mentioned about both the shirts and the belts to them and nothing has been done about it:goop:

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## RCastillo (Apr 18, 2002)

Ok Mr. Conatser, I want my Universal Pattern T shirt, pronto!
Make it Black, with the crest over the left side, extra large!:soapbox:


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## Kirk (Apr 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *Ok Mr. Conatser, I want my Universal Pattern T shirt, pronto!
> Make it Black, with the crest over the left side, extra large!:soapbox: *



I'm working on it!  Gimme time!


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## GouRonin (Apr 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> In regards to the the copywrite issue, you can copywrite something on a national level in the case of the USA, although i'm certain you cannot do it on an international level. It also depends on what is actually being copywritten.



This is true. You can have a national copyright in a country. In some countries though someone who is not a national cannot hold copyright at all.



> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE_
> BTW, You can always do a "poor man's copywrite" which you send yourself a envelope with the ideas you created and mail it to yourself! The postmark will identify the the date of receipt so you can show WHEN approximately the idea was formulated!



Again this is somewhat true. I worked in an industry that depended on conceptual thought and intellectual property for a few years. This is not a copyright. What it does do is establish that you had some thought regarding the issue. Someone can come along and copyright an idea despite the fact that you did this anyway, even if you did it years before. It just gives you some leverage to contesting it.



> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> in relation to the "suing someone selling the shirt", it's normally been people who have knowingly illegally used the images,names and copywritten material of Mr Parker who have either been sued or threatened with legal action.



Again this is true. However the legal action must be started and undertaken by the person holding the copyright which means they must be the one vigilant with it's use. More often than not an agreeable situation is found between the two parties without legal action.



> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> BTW, How do you know that Mr. Parker filed for bankruptcy? Also, was it chapter 7 or 11? They are distinctly different.



Yes they are. And the laws regarding each have changed considerably since then. For example Florida is one of the homestead states where you can file and they can't take away your house or car if you file etc. These laws change all the time but sadly once you declare you are bound by the law at that time despite changes. However you can appeal. Also there is a difference between business and personal bankruptcy.

You can find out many things that are in the public domain much faster now with the internet. All it takes is knowing where to look.



> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> In regards to the "20% rule", I agree wholeheartedly! There have been some fine example of creative art based on Mr. Parker's original ideas yet uniquely original in their scope. Even my school patch is based on my kenpo instructor's original emblem as a legacy to him.
> However, I don't agree that his images warrant his material being considered "free market" items.



I agree. Anyone using something that is less than 20% altered should pay some sort of royalty to it's holder if they use it within the realm of their copyright domain. The IKKA material is from the IKKA. However you can't copyright motion.

Personally I think it's Ed Parker Sr.'s greatest legacy that his material lives on. Myself, I would like nothing better to see *ONE* governing body for Kenpo but it will never happen. Too many politics. The funny thing is that the people who really need/use Kenpo could care less about the politics.



> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> Gee Doug, you mean Joe Foster never copywrote the IKKA crest in Canada?



Having never trained with Foster I don't know if he did or did not. More than likely, at the time he didn't want to piss the old man off and so he didn't. As the IKKA Canadian rep at the time he *SHOULD* have. But it took the IKKA close to 5+ years to even realize what he was doing and even then they had no clue he was changing the system and claiming Mr. Parker and he were in on it together until he was on charges and eventually convicted of sexual crimes. Kinda says to me that there was no one checking up on him. Ooops eh?

I know that it is not copyrighted here in Canada. I myself would do it *IF* I was the IKKA rep. But I am not and to do so would only be a money grab which I am not about.

I notice that the IKKA has taken agressive stances in recent history to start taking care of this copyright issue. In my personal opinion they have a somewhat healthy & viable product that could be merchandised to many if not *ALL* the present Kenpo organizations as it cross cuts politics. That could easily make the IKKA a *VERY* profitable organization and would allow them to increase revenue to expand their own program...

Just my own 2 cents though...


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## Kirk (Apr 18, 2002)

Nevertheless, it's not copywrited, but some feel that by me 
selling something with the Universal Symbol on it is unethical?


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## GouRonin (Apr 18, 2002)

Not me. I think that if you used the Universal symbol it would be ok. It's more of an idea and ideas while they can be attributed to people are fair game. It's when they get more specific like the IKKA Crest represents that I would draw the line.

For example I have a few gi's with the IKKA crest although it's been years since I was a member. I wear it to say I studied Parker Kenpo. 

Anyway, your call.


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## Klondike93 (Apr 18, 2002)

I agree with Gou (that's scarry  )

Don't let Mrs Parker see you with them Gou, you'll be banished to hades by lawyers!!  :rofl: 

:asian:


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## Blindside (Apr 18, 2002)

Actually Klondike it's worse than that, he'd be banished to Hades WITH lawyers.

Lamont


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## GouRonin (Apr 18, 2002)

Lawyers have nothing on my ex-girlfriend.

As for the IKKA crest, I wear it but so do a lot of people. They get away with it because it's a knock off. 20% altered! I was a member of the IKKA at one point anyway.


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## Klondike93 (Apr 18, 2002)

I was a member once too.....

So you'd be in hades and your ex-girlfriend would be the ruler?


:asian:


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## GouRonin (Apr 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *So you'd be in hades and your ex-girlfriend would be the ruler?*



All I ask is 5 minutes in the *"F"* zone with her and I'd be more than happy to spend the rest of eternity in hell. And you can guess which one it is.

But I'm not bitter.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 18, 2002)

And as such are welcome to it.  As for me.  I am a  Proud Member (1st Lifetime member at that!) of the IKKA, but Mr. Parker is Gone so we must move on.  I wear the Crest on occasion and have a right to.  I feel that it is keeping a legend active by wearing it.  It is keeping Mr. Parker alive and well through his ART.  NO one defends Mr. Parker as I do, or shall I say there are Many loyal followers of Ed Parkers System that feel as I do.  We all continue to teach and share Mr. Parkers Art as if he were still here.   Those close to me know that I would never do a disrespect to him.   Personally I love seeing the Pattern and Crest as well as my own, I feel that they are all tributes to Ed Parker and we are moving on with his Art which now becomes MY ART and YOUR ART since he is no longer here. 

 I do not look to the IKKA for guidance simply because there are no seniors there that can promote me or have a knowledge base as I do.  That's why I look to Steve LaBounty & Tom Kelly since they were in my lineage before I revert back now.   I have no doubt that Mr. Parker is happy with the state of the art today.  He is smiling and laughing at the same time.  Most of us know who's who in the Kenpo Zoo.    LOL 

:asian: 

ps but then some don't......... lol haa ahaaahahaaahaaaaaaaha:rofl:


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## RCastillo (Apr 18, 2002)

Most of us know who's who in the Kenpo
                         Zoo. LOL 



                         ps but then some don't......... lol haa ahaaahahaaahaaaaaaah

Mr. C. that better not be me you're talking about, i'll get on the first flight to Scottsdale, PRONTO!


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## Klondike93 (Apr 18, 2002)

Cool post GD!!  I like your devotion to your art and teacher.

From your postings it seems like you had a hand in where American Kenpo is today.................Thanks for that.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 18, 2002)

I wasn't referring to you!  Don't be so paranoid!!


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