# Full Contact Karate!



## Black/Red Block (Jul 19, 2012)

New to the Forum

Does anyone on here practice Full Contact Karate, be it Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Daiko Juku or other styles that practice Full COntat Knockdown Kumite (Sparring)?

I been practicing/Teaching Ashihara Karate for many years and find the type of sparring so much more useful than the Points (Sports) Kumite that is practiced in a majority of Schools

Thanks


----------



## Omar B (Jul 19, 2012)

Seido Karate here.  We are an offshoot of Kyokushin and we are a knockdown style ... though not as many of our guys go into those tournaments as the others.

We do point sparring, we do full contact sparring and as a treat on some Friday nights we do free fighting ... and that's where things get broken.  No free fighting for students under 16.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 19, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> New to the Forum
> 
> Does anyone on here practice Full Contact Karate, be it Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Daiko Juku or other styles that practice Full COntat Knockdown Kumite (Sparring)?
> 
> ...



Hi!  I don't mean to be contradictory, but it's not exactly an either/or situation.  I'm Isshin-Ryu.  We hit.  We hit hard.  We do not kumite full-power, however.  If we did, we'd have a lot of injuries, or we'd have to wear a lot of protective gear.  Personally, I have a day job and I am too old to heal quickly from injuries (and I still get injured fairly frequently, broken toes and ribs are not unusual).  We are not just punching air - but we're also not banging heads like full on maniacs.  There is space between the extremes.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 19, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Hi! I don't mean to be contradictory, but it's not exactly an either/or situation. I'm Isshin-Ryu. We hit. We hit hard. We do not kumite full-power, however. If we did, we'd have a lot of injuries, or we'd have to wear a lot of protective gear. Personally, I have a day job and I am too old to heal quickly from injuries (and I still get injured fairly frequently, broken toes and ribs are not unusual). We are not just punching air - but we're also not banging heads like full on maniacs. There is space between the extremes.



Exactly! I've only seen 'full contact' karate in competitions. Even in MMA we don't go 'full contact' in training for precisely the reasons you give, even full time fighters don't, it would be stupid to get injured before a fight.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Exactly! I've only seen 'full contact' karate in competitions. Even in MMA we don't go 'full contact' in training for precisely the reasons you give, even full time fighters don't, it would be stupid to get injured before a fight.



Just to be clear, people who want to rock and roll - I'm all for it, let 'em get crazy with it.  I just wanted to add that it's not A) full out rock and roll or B) doing light-touch point sparring.  There's lots of things in between.  

Me?  I have to go to work in the morning.  If I'm less than a perfect martial artist because I don't get all my teeth knocked out every other week, I'm OK with that.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 19, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Just to be clear, people who want to rock and roll - I'm all for it, let 'em get crazy with it. I just wanted to add that it's not A) full out rock and roll or B) doing light-touch point sparring. There's lots of things in between.
> 
> Me? I have to go to work in the morning. If I'm less than a perfect martial artist because I don't get all my teeth knocked out every other week, I'm OK with that.



However you do often hear some saying 'oh we go full contact' as if it means they train better, harder isn't always better though. If they go for it...'crazy' as you said it doesn't mean they are doing it correctly! One should train clever rather than all out, thinking full contact means better, training clever means doing it hard enough to know how to do it really hard when you need to.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> However you do often hear some saying 'oh we go full contact' as if it means they train better, harder isn't always better though. If they go for it...'crazy' as you said it doesn't mean they are doing it correctly! One should train clever rather than all out, thinking full contact means better, training clever means doing it hard enough to know how to do it really hard when you need to.



Well, I think the point is often made by certain 'full contact' styles that you revert to your training under stress, and I believe there is some truth to that.  But then they take it a bit further and do their training full bore, full power, hitting each other with everything they have.  One style I'm familiar with wears bogu since regular padding won't stop them from being hurt with as hard as they kick and hit.  That seems unrealistic to me in itself, it's not like you wear bogu on the street.

So you've got the air-punchers, the people who spar lightly, the light-to-medium contact sports guys who do point sparring, those who hit and use padding but don't go nuts, and the people who just drag out the chainsaw and start hacking on each other.  They're all valid if that's what you're into, but it's not like it's either no contact or full contact.  Lots of stuff in between.  As to self-defense value, I am sure that there is a risk that I might not respond with full power if attacked, since I don't train that way, but I think it's a risk I'm willing to take.


----------



## Kurohyou (Jul 19, 2012)

I'd honestly love to do full contact, but we are only taught point sparring. Unlike some dojos we don't use excessive padding. Just helmet, gloves mouth guard, and feet padding. Other padding is option. I personally use shin guards as well. We point spar because that is all you usually find in the tournaments in Chicago, Indiana, and other nearby competitions.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 19, 2012)

Kurohyou said:


> I'd honestly love to do full contact, but we are only taught point sparring. Unlike some dojos we don't use excessive padding. Just helmet, gloves mouth guard, and feet padding. Other padding is option. I personally use shin guards as well. We point spar because that is all you usually find in the tournaments in Chicago, Indiana, and other nearby competitions.



In the dojo, we only use the hands and feet.  Everything else is optional.  And we don't point-spar in the dojo, because we're not a 'tournamet-going' dojo.  People who want to go to tournaments can, but no one is required to and the dojo doesn't go as a dojo - just individuals if they feel like it.  And in a lot of local tournaments, point sparring is also being supplemented with continuous sparring, which is more contact, and you keep going for scored and timed rounds, like boxing.


----------



## Omar B (Jul 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Exactly! I've only seen 'full contact' karate in competitions. Even in MMA we don't go 'full contact' in training for precisely the reasons you give, even full time fighters don't*, it would be stupid to get injured before a fight.*



Then call me stupid.  LOL.  But really, I broke my right knee freefighting the Friday night before a tournament (Saturday morning).  Led to reconstructive surgery and me not training for about 4 years.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 20, 2012)

Omar B said:


> Then call me stupid. LOL. But really, I broke my right knee freefighting the Friday night before a tournament (Saturday morning). Led to reconstructive surgery and me not training for about 4 years.




Ouch! Most of our military students have knee problems, comes from running in boots and carrying heavy Bergens. they often end up with knee surgery but it's rarely as nasty or painful as yours. Hope it's better now as I know these things can linger.


----------



## Omar B (Jul 20, 2012)

Oh, my knee is great.  If it ever were to happen at a good time it was then, I was 16 so I was young and could heal well.  Plus at that 16/17 age when you are going into the last part of high school you need to refocus on school (in my case I graduated a junior).

People going into knockdown karate need to keep this in mind though.  Precautions are taken, rules of engagement changed (no face punching) but even with the best intentions people get hurt.  It's tough, real tough, and you will get hurt.  Can they realistically deal with that.


----------



## Black/Red Block (Jul 20, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, I think the point is often made by certain 'full contact' styles that you revert to your training under stress, and I believe there is some truth to that. But then they take it a bit further and do their training full bore, full power, hitting each other with everything they have. One style I'm familiar with wears bogu since regular padding won't stop them from being hurt with as hard as they kick and hit. That seems unrealistic to me in itself, it's not like you wear bogu on the street.
> 
> So you've got the air-punchers, the people who spar lightly, the light-to-medium contact sports guys who do point sparring, those who hit and use padding but don't go nuts, and the people who just drag out the chainsaw and start hacking on each other. They're all valid if that's what you're into, but it's not like it's either no contact or full contact. Lots of stuff in between. As to self-defense value, I am sure that there is a risk that I might not respond with full power if attacked, since I don't train that way, but I think it's a risk I'm willing to take.




Completely agreed with all the posts here.

When I say Full Contact, we're Full Contact WITH common sense. we have certain sessions where it is on the matts and it is FULL CONTACT but we have a rule where the LOWER grade controls the pace. It also stems to Age and other criteria too

As with others we all have jobs to go to the next day some of us in Customer facing roles os turing up with a black eye or a cut lip etc isn't on the agenda although even when controlled one can still get hurt. The video below is one of the Best examples of Control WITH realism I've seen to date

OSU


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 20, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> Completely agreed with all the posts here.
> 
> When I say Full Contact, we're Full Contact WITH common sense. we have certain sessions where it is on the matts and it is FULL CONTACT but we have a rule where the LOWER grade controls the pace. It also stems to Age and other criteria too
> 
> ...



Terry O'Neill.... LEGEND!


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 20, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> Completely agreed with all the posts here.
> 
> When I say Full Contact, we're Full Contact WITH common sense. we have certain sessions where it is on the matts and it is FULL CONTACT but we have a rule where the LOWER grade controls the pace. It also stems to Age and other criteria too
> 
> ...



Loved that video, thanks!


----------



## Manny (Jul 20, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Me?  I have to go to work in the morning.  If I'm less than a perfect martial artist because I don't get all my teeth knocked out every other week, I'm OK with that.



The same for me, I am a working man not a pro fighter so I agree with you. Even this I have had a broken nose, broken theet and some concusions and a full knock out but those wehere the days when I was younger and in some point reckless, today having to feed and take care of my family I can't aford a broken nose surgery and some days off the job because of that.

In TKD we do full contact sparrin wearin at least a cup, the hogu (chets protector) and a helmet but even with these equipment sh.... can hapen so one must be alert.

Manny


----------



## SuperFLY (Jul 24, 2012)

the separation of 'this style is contact' 'this style isnt' interests me..

i practice shotokan which most people would assume is non/semi-contact however if you look at some of the higher grades sparring its anything but. stick a cup, gum-shield and mitts on and we can go to town (within reason).

i currently have marks all down my arms as i had the opportunity to train with my sensei 2 on 1 last week (normally i train with his assistant or other black belts) and he decided to put me under pressure. i was having to block with full force to deflect his attacks.. if i didnt id get clobbered, plain and simple. no pads/mitts..

i loved it!

my second partner didnt though, heh. he's often quick but not as powerful. the problem was i was getting attacked by my sensei from one side, then turning and getting attacked by my second partner. as i was having to block full force one way i wasnt easing up when i turned round (as said, my second partner is still quick) and got a couple of 'owws' after i blocked. counters are always controlled but i was just using a bit more force in my blocks than i otherwise would do when doing lighter kumite.

its nice to go lightly and avoid any pain but imo you need to feel like you 'have' to block as well. helps you gauge your distance better too.

a litle off topic i know but as said its interesting the perceptions of different styles and that in practice some may be more or less contract than you'd otherwise think.

for my school however this does mainly only apply to higher grades. the lower grades will do some light sparring and self defence techniques but you wouldnt start going harder until the higher grades.. until you've learnt control basically.


----------



## MJS (Jul 24, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> New to the Forum
> 
> Does anyone on here practice Full Contact Karate, be it Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Daiko Juku or other styles that practice Full COntat Knockdown Kumite (Sparring)?
> 
> ...



Been doing Kyokushin since last August.  After 20+ years of doing Kenpo, the classes/training that I get here are night and day.  The workouts, the fighting, everything is much more intense, the way it should be, IMHO.  As for the sparring....we wear those cloth hand and shin pads, however, you may as well not wear anything..lol...as the body shots still hurt like hell, but despite banging away, we're still friends at the end of the day. 

One of the Black Belts at the school, just came back from an event in Japan, which allowed face punching.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperFLY said:


> the separation of 'this style is contact' 'this style isnt' interests me..
> 
> i practice shotokan which most people would assume is non/semi-contact however if you look at some of the higher grades sparring its anything but. stick a cup, gum-shield and mitts on and we can go to town (within reason).
> 
> ...




Shotokan here has always been thought of as the full contact style, some of the best full contact fighters here have come from Shotokan.


----------



## MilkManX (Jul 26, 2012)

Osu!

I do ENSHIN karate.

Yes we spar full contact but not at full power.

That is determined by the users.

Say me (Shodan) is sparring 1st Kyu or above then its 75-80% most nights.

If I am sparring lower grades than that then I use much less power and work on technique. Going full power in class is only going to get people hurt.


----------



## Black/Red Block (Jul 27, 2012)

MilkManX said:


> Osu!
> 
> I do ENSHIN karate.
> 
> ...



Wow, MilkManX you're on as many forums as I am, LOL (but you kept the same Tag on them)

OSU!!!


----------



## lonewolfofmibu (Aug 22, 2012)

I just started Kyokushin a little while ago and am going to be supplementing it with Goju-Ryu and Judo but I love full contact sparring, haven't done too much of it mainly Osu training so far, but I plan to compete in atleast one full contact karate tournament before I die


----------



## Martin h (Oct 21, 2012)

Kyokushin here. We do full contact in sparring too. But not all the time, and we hold back against the head.  You need to condition the body in sparring to be able to fight in tournaments,. But you cannot condition the head, and if you go full contact to the body all the time, it will break down.  Usually we go in hard but not all out in sparring. And when we do go full contact, it is reserved for the advanced guys.


----------



## SuperFLY (Oct 21, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Shotokan here has always been thought of as the full contact style, some of the best full contact fighters here have come from Shotokan.



i suppose that proves the fact thats its more the instructor or the specific club more than the actual style in a lot of cases 

must admit other than a bit of mutual respect, during my grading, our sparring was certainly full contact! man it was fun!


----------



## Kurohyou (Mar 12, 2013)

We are a tournament attending dojo. We attend and prepare for tournaments every couple of months. I have yet to attend a tournament with continuous sparring, but those are the reasons why our dojo focuses mainly on point fighting.


----------



## chinto (Mar 21, 2013)

the two "knock down" sparring tournaments I have seen I was NOT impressed by.  they hit each other hard in the chest, the head was not a target, and well the techniques were not that great!  perhaps it was the rules or ??  but We have 9th kyu people who fight better as far as blocking and moving and things then what I saw.

I know I would NOT do business on the street the way they were, so I have to assume at least a lot of it had to be the rules.. I hope??


----------



## rframe (Mar 22, 2013)

chinto said:


> the two "knock down" sparring tournaments I have seen I was NOT impressed by



From what I've seen I sort of agree.  The combination of rules and mentality seems to produce really poor technique that turns into a body shot slug fest with an occasional head kick snuck in.  It's fine as a sport, in that I guess any set of rules that people want to adapt and play with, is fine for them... but the practicality just seems lost.  In that way it reminds me a lot of TKD tournaments, where you see the guys bobbing around with arms dangling at their side while they spin kick all day long... fine as a sport if that's what you enjoy doing, but at the same time appears really silly if your brain gets any thought of it being a "fight".


----------



## Em MacIntosh (Mar 23, 2013)

We go full contact with but we also wear bogu.  If we take the opponent down we punch the ground beside their head and we try not to hit each other in the groin as a courtesy.
We also do mid-contact (participant's discretion) with grappling and we do it without bogu because it's awkward to grapple in the gear.
We also do some light continuous sparring with the underbelts and everyone does some one step sparring.

Full contact is a real rush, especially at a tourney.  There's nothing like getting knocked out of the ring by a sidekick, it's like a ride at the carnival.


----------

