# Discussion concerning Presas Family Styles



## monkey

I started around 1975 & the art was not only fun-but every once in a while , we got to see it being shown to the military.I vowed Id do the same.The art went in 2 way after the passing of 1 of the founders.1 took it threw mono y mono,international arnis,philippino modern arnis,arjunken, & finealy combaton.
The other took it from the balintawak foundation & mixed verious to come up with Modern arnis.Later arnis de tranaka was introduced & some do tapi tapi (from what Ive seen tapi tapi was 1 part of de tranka)
I personaly stayed with the core of what was layed out.As for example!
There is one art today that has a wing chun base & boxing.Then it when to more of epie aproch & more twords the boxing with,flavor of wing chun.
Later it be came Jeet Kune do.The core in this art would be wing chun based with epie enfluance & boxing.
The core of the art was great emtpy hand skills-(hence the mono y mono art)Great wepons defence & counters.Great foundation!Hence the (internation asso & the arjuken)The Arjuken was Arnis -Judo & Kendo!Its all fun & should be shared.


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## Rich Parsons

monkey said:
			
		

> I started around 1975 & the art was not only fun-but every once in a while , we got to see it being shown to the military.I vowed Id do the same.The art went in 2 way after the passing of 1 of the founders.1 took it threw mono y mono,international arnis,philippino modern arnis,arjunken, & finealy combaton.
> The other took it from the balintawak foundation & mixed verious to come up with Modern arnis.Later arnis de tranaka was introduced & some do tapi tapi (from what Ive seen tapi tapi was 1 part of de tranka)
> I personaly stayed with the core of what was layed out.As for example!
> There is one art today that has a wing chun base & boxing.Then it when to more of epie aproch & more twords the boxing with,flavor of wing chun.
> Later it be came Jeet Kune do.The core in this art would be wing chun based with epie enfluance & boxing.
> The core of the art was great emtpy hand skills-(hence the mono y mono art)Great wepons defence & counters.Great foundation!Hence the (internation asso & the arjuken)The Arjuken was Arnis -Judo & Kendo!Its all fun & should be shared.




BS! :bs:


There is one and only Founder of Modern Arnis. That is Remy Amador Presas.


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## Rocky

When Remy founded Modern Arnis Ernesto was only about 10 years old!

Remy founded the art by himself!!!




Rocky


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## modarnis

Rocky said:
			
		

> When Remy founded Modern Arnis Ernesto was only about 10 years old!
> 
> Remy founded the art by himself!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rocky



That was always my understanding as well.  Remy had already founded and established Modern Arnis, then prior to his departure for the US, turned some degree of responsibility over to Ernesto.  When Remy remained in the US, Ernesto was left to teach in the Philipinnes.  After that, Ernesto developed his version of the art into Kombaton.

I have to second Rich's flag raising to the earlier post.  Rocky is at least a dozen years senior to me, but our versions of history, from Professor's mouth seem consistent on this and other issues


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## monkey

If it was constent & he Started around 10yr of age --Then Why is Jose pictured with Ernesto!  Remy took Balintawak & other arts?Remy has not been tought by Jose Presas y Bonco..
Remy said in the 
black belt tape His Grandfauther Bonco tought him !!!!
Bull ," Jose the father is" Bonco " --Stoke the Grandfather is nor nor ever will be Bonco.
Jose never tought Remy any of the family art nor did Stoke.Enesto took many long truck 
rides to train a bit with Stoke

Jose is pictured  With Ernesto in the Philippines teaching the Armed Forces.
Ernesto Got his Grand master Rank from the Bokbakahn--Not Remy!!!!!!
There is no family record to suport Remy to the Family art!
Ernesto Has been Recognised & teaching high Dignataries & photos to supor with Letters of Recomdation!!!


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## monkey

For Those Who Are Interested in the History 

I found this 1 of many that post some documentation to the hitory of the art.


http://www.cfwenterprises.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=3229 

I hope this helps.This is what I was give to post.

                          Mabuhay


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## Rich Parsons

monkey said:
			
		

> If it was constent & he Started around 10yr of age --Then Why is Jose pictured with Ernesto! Remy took Balintawak & other arts?Remy has not been tought by Jose Presas y Bonco..
> Remy said in the
> black belt tape His Grandfauther Bonco tought him !!!!
> Bull ," Jose the father is" Bonco " --Stoke the Grandfather is nor nor ever will be Bonco.
> Jose never tought Remy any of the family art nor did Stoke.Enesto took many long truck
> rides to train a bit with Stoke
> 
> Jose is pictured  With Ernesto in the Philippines teaching the Armed Forces.
> Ernesto Got his Grand master Rank from the Bokbakahn--Not Remy!!!!!!
> There is no family record to suport Remy to the Family art!
> Ernesto Has been Recognised & teaching high Dignataries & photos to supor with Letters of Recomdation!!!



Tom et al,

GM Remy Presas studied Balintawak while as a teenager after he had left home on a fishing boot and ended up in Cebu City on Cebu. 

GM Remy also trained in other systems behind his fathers back including training with his Grand Father. Which the last time I looked is still family. 

As to GM Ernesto teaching, I think it is good. As to his Rank, I have no problem with his title as such and no one here has questioned it. 

GM Ernesto uses the terminology of Kombaton now to avoid any issue with the differences between himself and his late brother. 

Now back to Balintawak. Having trained in both and teach both, there are aspects of Balintawak in Modern Arnis, but they are different. 

So I once again do not understand your point. 

You make a claim. I and others think it is wrong, and you make it out that we are attacking someone. You are using misdirection to remove the heat form the claims you made to other people and other issues.


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## monkey

No Sir ;
i respect what your saying --I simply stated Remy did balintawak.
Remy claims to have learned from Bonco the Uncle or Grand father.
As claied in the Black belt interview.
I simply Stated The Grandfather is Stoke.
The father is Jose Presas y Bonco.
I have displayed this video to Mr Huubard & otheres on the board.
I will not stipulate Remys skill.
If you go the Monkey member in motion #40 post I have put the URL
Nationaly documented & has been know as such 
Sicnce 1980.Ernesto is the Grandmaster  & heir to ModernArnis-  Mono y Mono-  Arjuken--  Kombaton--  Internaltional Philippinoe Arnis Assoc.

Please go to the url  I  posted & see I have told the trueth of History.
& if you lke it or not  & Im not bosting Just stating facts  I am certified By REmy 1981  & by Ernesto 1987  & by both 1999.My ranks have been posted & now national post suport what I said is true,

I Im not putting down Remy --I love his inovations.I am just stating as you 
asked to answer your questions"Here is your answere & see I have not
lied.


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## modarnis

monkey said:
			
		

> No Sir ;
> i respect what your saying --I simply stated Remy did balintawak.
> Remy claims to have learned from Bonco the Uncle or Grand father.
> As claied in the Black belt interview.
> I simply Stated The Grandfather is Stoke.
> The father is Jose Presas y Bonco.
> I have displayed this video to Mr Huubard & otheres on the board.
> I will not stipulate Remys skill.
> If you go the Monkey member in motion #40 post I have put the URL
> Nationaly documented & has been know as such
> Sicnce 1980.Ernesto is the Grandmaster & heir to ModernArnis- Mono y Mono- Arjuken-- Kombaton-- Internaltional Philippinoe Arnis Assoc.
> 
> Please go to the url I posted & see I have told the trueth of History.
> & if you lke it or not & Im not bosting Just stating facts I am certified By REmy 1981 & by Ernesto 1987 & by both 1999.My ranks have been posted & now national post suport what I said is true,
> 
> I Im not putting down Remy --I love his inovations.I am just stating as you
> asked to answer your questions"Here is your answere & see I have not
> lied.


 
Wait,  here you say Ernesto is GM of Modern Arnis, an art widely known to have been created by Remy Presas.  A couple of posts before this one you say:

>>>Ernesto Got his Grand master Rank from the Bokbakahn--Not Remy!!!!!!>>

Which is it.  You can't seem to  keep your stories straight.  I call :bs1:


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## Brian R. VanCise

Monkey,

First off you do not know who Remy trained or did not train with.  We only have what he told us and guess what, everyone here is going to believe what Remy said over you.  I find it *distasteful* that you are trying to pick apart at the Founder of Modern Arnis after he has passed away.  If you truly were his student of any merit then you would not be doing this.  Sorry, but you need to understand that internet sources are generally weak on their history or slanted by the individual writing them.  So the url that you have posted is just one persons take on Ernesto Presas and nothing more.  In other words it does not prove a thing or your point.  You will not be accepted by the Modern Arnis community with this tactic.  Of course most of the community has written you off already!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## monkey

I know what your saying but the post " is not 1 mans view".  It states his Bio.
This is not a view-it clearly states the arts & his books which have suporting photos.
Look at it again --Im not Putting Remy down but you try to make it sound like I am.   I simply stated the same Mr Parsons has.Remy did "balintawak in Cubu."    This was not the family art.Jose is picuter with Ernesto & with The military & at veriuos dignateries as well.
Look again its a bio,You seem to take bios & info as name dropping or 
just 1 mans word.
I stated it as well as Mr Parsons above .Go back in the post.
Remy did balintawak & other arts. The family art is  Obinico Corto Kuntao.
Ernesto had the Modern Arnis in 1970.
He also had the arjuken- mono y mono-  International Philippino Arnis Assoc.--Modern Arnis Assoc 1975 as my patch showed on my video.

Look back at the bio agian.Its not 1 mans veiw--It is a bio & has indepth 
photos of esada y daga.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Actually as a bio it is one man's view or the person writing it.
Remy said he trained in his family art and that is good enough for myself and I believe everyone else in the Modern Arnis community.

Modern Arnis was founded by Remy Amador Presas and nobody else!  That is the reality here.  Ernesto is the Grandmaster of Kombaton, that is his art.  If you are out to promote Ernesto then maybe you should do that in the Kombaton forum on FMATalk!

If you are interested in talking about technique and the exchange of technique post on that but this current tactic is definately on the wrong track.

I appreciate that you are trying to clean up your posts but you continue to post about stuff that you should probably steer clear of.  It seems that you have many, many issues with other people and that is *definately disturbing*.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## monkey

I know & understand what your saying--kambaton did not start till 2000!
He released the videos threw TC,Media  & Remy was to Release 
1-10 Arnis De Tranka & tapi tapi.
It was takes off the maket but if you wait a little more youll have the dvd showing My ranks-class photo when it was the Brothers as 1 art.I am in that pictue  & it has been told agian on http:www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthred.php?t=8547&page=2&highlight=carnes  this was seen by Mr Hubbard on 6-15-2006 at 10:52am   

If I remember right Mr Hubard is a member of Ernesto & Kombaton did not start till around 2000.Also Mr Hubbard has the clips of Arnis de tranka to show what I stated was all true,

I never said Remy was not a Granmaster. I statd the sameas Mr Parsons & he dose not dispute Ernestos ranks.  He document & had over 5 systems & one is Modern Arnis.This is a fact. Nothing more or less.It has been confirmed 

Grandmaster Remy did balintawak & learned in Cubu.He actual had a little panandata - doce pares--arnis largo & serada.
Ernestos arts are there & copy writted & noted & stated.
a;so  http://repub;ica.plmodernarnis/arnis/polish/represent/california.html


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## monkey

http:repulika.pl/modernarnis/mode...alifornia.html

that url should work.....


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## monkey

Sorry  ofr any computor happinigs some how the url  was not working..

Now it will   http://republika.pl/modernarnis/mode..california.html


also so        http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...ghlight=carnes

there are 4 of the same but each show differant. These should help out with info.


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## OnlyAnEgg

monkey said:
			
		

> Sorry ofr any computor happinigs some how the url was not working..
> 
> Now it will http://republika.pl/modernarnis/mode..california.html
> 
> 
> also so http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...ghlight=carnes
> 
> there are 4 of the same but each show differant. These should help out with info.


 
Monkeyman...these links don't work


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## monkey

This is odd there are lsited  exactly on a past post.

Lets try this


Go to serch   type in  who is tom carnes

Now there will be a section on (Ok i give up who is tom carnes.) look for (page 5 ) of 8
 & it should  have black adder posting the  thred  url  for the( 2nd one.)
holds the info needed to state what the thed is.Dont know why it wont go here.May be too old.
Now for the info on the other it just be low blackadder  showing 4 post                                                           
 all same yet differant address..(Its the 2nd one that stipulates the info you are required or looking for) go to page 2  post 16 dated 6-15-2006  10:52am


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## Brian R. VanCise

modarnis said:
			
		

> That was always my understanding as well. Remy had already founded and established Modern Arnis, then prior to his departure for the US, turned some degree of responsibility over to Ernesto. When Remy remained in the US, Ernesto was left to teach in the Philipinnes. After that, Ernesto developed his version of the art into Kombaton.
> 
> I have to second Rich's flag raising to the earlier post. Rocky is at least a dozen years senior to me, but our versions of history, from Professor's mouth seem consistent on this and other issues


 
I have to agree!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Rich Parsons

monkey said:
			
		

> I know what your saying but the post " is not 1 mans view". It states his Bio.
> This is not a view-it clearly states the arts & his books which have suporting photos.
> Look at it again --Im not Putting Remy down but you try to make it sound like I am. I simply stated the same Mr Parsons has.Remy did "balintawak in Cubu." This was not the family art.Jose is picuter with Ernesto & with The military & at veriuos dignateries as well.
> Look again its a bio,You seem to take bios & info as name dropping or
> just 1 mans word.
> I stated it as well as Mr Parsons above .Go back in the post.
> Remy did balintawak & other arts. The family art is Obinico Corto Kuntao.
> Ernesto had the Modern Arnis in 1970.
> He also had the arjuken- mono y mono- International Philippino Arnis Assoc.--Modern Arnis Assoc 1975 as my patch showed on my video.
> 
> Look back at the bio agian.Its not 1 mans veiw--It is a bio & has indepth
> photos of esada y daga.


 
Tom,

1) GM Remy did train with his Family his Grand Father.

2) As to Ernesto being the GM of Modern Arnis, I have no issue with the man and think he has tried to do his best for the art he teaches. As to his Rank being recognized by the PI association and the PI Governement it is best to study a little history. I have the following information from multiple sources including GM Remy himself and also Panong Guro Remy P Presas. "President" Marcos wanted to control Modern Arnis, and told GM Remy to promote some people in the Army to certain ranks to run his school teachings. Marcos wanted to use this as an indoctrination program with young people. The Police/Governmental Police showed up and took GM Remy's passport which was a special passport issued by the Government of the PI and told him not to go anywhere. He then got his personal passposrt and got on a plane for the USA. He left to avoid being killed for standing up to Marcos. Marcos understood politics and how to persuade people. I do not know the exact offer, but GM Ernesto took over after GM Remy left and all was "BLESSED" by Marcos' people. GM Ernesto played along, GM REMY told them to go away it was his system. 

3) Modern Arnis is and always will be from GM Remy. 

4) The family system stand alone may be found with GM Ernesto, but both Ernesto and Roberto were trained in Modern Arnis for teaching in the schools and other programs. They were influeneced by him as well. 

5) By your arguements, since GM Remy did Balintawak he does not have the family art. I guess that means only you have huh? So I guess since you studied Serrada and also JKD you know longer have what you have learned elsewhere? 

6) Stop quoting me to try to prove your points. Make your points on your own words with your own arguements. For as far as I know we disagree on everything so far.


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## Brian Johns

Mr. Monkey,

I haven't posted much lately due to a busy life but have been reading the posts by you and trying to decipher your claims.

I realize that you may have answered this already in one of your numerous posts. But, I have a simple question for you:

Have you taught Modern Arnis seminars in the past ?

Thank you,
Brian Johns
Columbus, Ohio


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## monkey

Yes I have --I dont publish a lot of what I do.I cant aford It.As for how Bud Thompson dose it .He gives students 1month notice befor I come down & post it on the new once but it stays for a bit.

I have done seminars in Vegas.I realy love Vegas.Ive done a lot actualy.

I do have  it on archives but if I talk of if--Im told I promote myself 
& my videos threw this site.
I just want to share info.
Then others even on this post Who have been told to stop.
Find new ways & yet continue.


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## Dan Anderson

Hi Tom,

A couple of clarification points re Ernesto and Remy.

1.  Remy learned from his grandfather, Leon.  He has stated this on video
    twice and I have both videos.

2.  He learned his grandfather's art, which included the palis-palis, figure
     8, and banda y banda.

3.  I have read nothing about Remy learning from Jose or any claims to
    that matter.  I know Ernesto learned from Jose.

4.  Remy left home at age 14, met up with the Moncal balintawak group
    and worked his way up to learning from Ancion Bacon, the founder of 
    balintawak.

5.  Remy formed Modern Arnis, taught Ernesto and Roberto or, at the very 
    least, they were his juniors in the gym that Remy ran.

6.  Remy went to the USA on his first trip and while Ernesto was "minding 
    the store."  Remy came back and they had a falling out.  The full 
    details are for those whoever Remy told the story to but up to that 
    point Ernesto was teaching Modern Arnis.

7.  The falling out was of such import that Remy and Ernesto never saw 
    much of each other until Ernesto's heart attack in San Francisco many 
    years later.

8.  Ernesto considers Modern Arnis one of the portions of Kombatan.  This  
    he told me himself.

9.  From watching Ernesto and working personally with Remy for many,
    many years, Ernesto does not move like Remy.  There are body
    shiftings and so forth that Ernesto and his students do not use very 
    much.  My line of thought is that his granfather taught Remy more 
    blade oriented actions than Jose taught Ernesto.  Remy's distance 
    work, I believe is more from the grandfather and his close quarters 
    work is definitely balintawak based.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## stickarts

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Tom,
> 
> A couple of clarification points re Ernesto and Remy.
> 
> 1. Remy learned from his grandfather, Leon. He has stated this on video
> twice and I have both videos.
> 
> 2. He learned his grandfather's art, which included the palis-palis, figure
> 8, and banda y banda.
> 
> 3. I have read nothing about Remy learning from Jose or any claims to
> that matter. I know Ernesto learned from Jose.
> 
> 4. Remy left home at age 14, met up with the Moncal balintawak group
> and worked his way up to learning from Ancion Bacon, the founder of
> balintawak.
> 
> 5. Remy formed Modern Arnis, taught Ernesto and Roberto or, at the very
> least, they were his juniors in the gym that Remy ran.
> 
> 6. Remy went to the USA on his first trip and while Ernesto was "minding
> the store." Remy came back and they had a falling out. The full
> details are for those whoever Remy told the story to but up to that
> point Ernesto was teaching Modern Arnis.
> 
> 7. The falling out was of such import that Remy and Ernesto never saw
> much of each other until Ernesto's heart attack in San Francisco many
> years later.
> 
> 8. Ernesto considers Modern Arnis one of the portions of Kombatan. This
> he told me himself.
> 
> 9. From watching Ernesto and working personally with Remy for many,
> many years, Ernesto does not move like Remy. There are body
> shiftings and so forth that Ernesto and his students do not use very
> much. My line of thought is that his granfather taught Remy more
> blade oriented actions than Jose taught Ernesto. Remy's distance
> work, I believe is more from the grandfather and his close quarters
> work is definitely balintawak based.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 

Points 4, 5, 6, and 7 are in agreement with what Prof. told me.
The other points were also mentioned in tapes and / or make sense.

Thanks Dan.


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## Rich Parsons

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Tom,
> 
> A couple of clarification points re Ernesto and Remy.
> 
> 1.  Remy learned from his grandfather, Leon.  He has stated this on video
> twice and I have both videos.
> 
> 2.  He learned his grandfather's art, which included the palis-palis, figure
> 8, and banda y banda.
> 
> 3.  I have read nothing about Remy learning from Jose or any claims to
> that matter.  I know Ernesto learned from Jose.
> 
> 4.  Remy left home at age 14, met up with the Moncal balintawak group
> and worked his way up to learning from Ancion Bacon, the founder of
> balintawak.
> 
> 5.  Remy formed Modern Arnis, taught Ernesto and Roberto or, at the very
> least, they were his juniors in the gym that Remy ran.
> 
> 6.  Remy went to the USA on his first trip and while Ernesto was "minding
> the store."  Remy came back and they had a falling out.  The full
> details are for those whoever Remy told the story to but up to that
> point Ernesto was teaching Modern Arnis.
> 
> 7.  The falling out was of such import that Remy and Ernesto never saw
> much of each other until Ernesto's heart attack in San Francisco many
> years later.
> 
> 8.  Ernesto considers Modern Arnis one of the portions of Kombatan.  This
> he told me himself.
> 
> 9.  From watching Ernesto and working personally with Remy for many,
> many years, Ernesto does not move like Remy.  There are body
> shiftings and so forth that Ernesto and his students do not use very
> much.  My line of thought is that his granfather taught Remy more
> blade oriented actions than Jose taught Ernesto.  Remy's distance
> work, I believe is more from the grandfather and his close quarters
> work is definitely balintawak based.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



Thank you Senior Master Dan Anderson


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## monkey

Mr Anderson;
That was as Remy would say "Beautiful."
I was simply stateing a quote He made from( the 3 Black belt tapes) were he said( His Grandfather Bonco).
I can look up & pinpoint exactly were & which 1 if you have them & 
then we can resulve the staement were He did say BONCO!

Im not yellig.Please dont take it as such.
I just want the people to know Jose had ocinico & corto kuntao.

This is why each differ in how they move.Yet I had time with both.Remy did grant me rank.
Im honored your senior master.I have seen on the master thred they 
wont realy note masters as such.

As Remy told me in Honor & I give you these great words for you to use as see fit.

Laging Una, Walang Urong,Laging Sulong!

Always first,Never retreat,Ever forward!!


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## Dan Anderson

monkey said:
			
		

> Mr Anderson;
> *1.* That was as Remy would say "Beautiful."
> *2.* I was simply stateing a quote He made from( the 3 Black belt tapes) were he said( His Grandfather Bonco).
> I can look up & pinpoint exactly were & which 1 if you have them &
> then we can resulve the staement were He did say BONCO!
> 
> *3.* Im not yellig.Please dont take it as such.
> I just want the people to know Jose had ocinico & corto kuntao.
> 
> *4.* This is why each differ in how they move.Yet I had time with both.Remy did grant me rank.
> Im honored your senior master.I have seen on the master thred they
> wont realy note masters as such.
> 
> As Remy told me in Honor & I give you these great words for you to use as see fit.
> 
> Laging Una, Walang Urong,Laging Sulong!
> 
> Always first,Never retreat,Ever forward!!


 
Hi Tom,

1.  Thank you.
2.  You know, it wouldn't surprise me if he did say Bonco on one of his tapes.  I have one where he says his grandfather is Leon.  I do have the Balck Belt tapes so if you can pinpoint it, please do.  
3.  I don't hear you yelling.  No problem.
4.  I don't know Jose Presas' system so I couldn't say.  If you have a bunch of Jose Presas footage I'd love to see it.  It would make sense that the two brothers had two different teachers so they would move different.  What I find interesting is the possibility that the father and grandfather did different styles or flavors or arnis.  Hmmm...that's a thought.

As to the rest, thank you for the compliment.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## monkey

Ok I watch take 2  he stated I leardn from my uncle Leon Bonco..

I dont recall Leon being Bonco..Maybe it can be reserched by some one.Its on tape 2 of the black belt relese set.As far as I was told Jose Presas y Bonco & then there Was (Stoke &  Leon )who were not Bonco.

There has to be some way to check for sure.
If they were Bonco then there is some other type of 
bonda y bonda & espad y daga.
This is were I realy need to understand & we Ernesto said he did serrada!
Im just as determind & as pastionate on the arts as you.

If we do unlock this serrada that Ernesto told me of --Then the void of the 
so called split may make more   sence as to why!
It was fun as the 2 tought me in Sacramento 1979-80.
It might be fun agian to get that union of the arts & void as 1!


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## Rich Parsons

Uncle is the closest translation to Manong and other honorifics used in the PI. 

As to reuniting - I honestly wish you good luck.


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## monkey

It's come to my attention, through personal research, that it is quite probable that Remy Presas was the most prominent and active creator of Modern Arnis. I have read many different articles, some in favor of Remy and some for Ernesto, as far as who was the founder. What I have found has lead me to believe Remy was the prime creator, but with assistance from his brother Ernesto. 
Check out this site for more info:  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remy_Presas


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## modarnis

monkey said:
			
		

> It's come to my attention, through personal research, that it is quite probable that Remy Presas was the most prominent and active creator of Modern Arnis. I have read many different articles, some in favor of Remy and some for Ernesto, as far as who was the founder. What I have found has lead me to believe Remy was the prime creator, but with assistance from his brother Ernesto.
> Check out this site for more info:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remy_Presas


 
That's quite a revelation for you.  Its only what everyone here has been telling you since you started posting already knew.  It has been published in works by Remy Presas, Mark Wiley, Dan Anderson, and hundreds of magazine articles.  I for one am relieved you finally are up to speed


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## Dan Anderson

monkey said:
			
		

> This is were I realy need to understand & we Ernesto said he did serrada!
> Im just as determind & as pastionate on the arts as you.
> 
> If we do unlock this serrada that Ernesto told me of --


Here is something to look at.  Serrada is what Angel Cabales called his art but serrada is also a _position_ from which to fight as well (stick arm across the body setting one up for an abanico strike).  It could very well be that this is what Ernesto meant when he said he did serrada.  It's like fighting from a right or left lead.  Something to think about.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson

monkey said:
			
		

> What I have found has lead me to believe Remy was the prime creator, but with assistance from his brother Ernesto.


 
Hmmm...I'm not so sure but I am going to ask this of Cristino Vasquez, Rene Tongson, and Roberto Presas when I go to the PI in July.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Guro Harold

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Here is something to look at. Serrada is what Angel Cabales called his art but serrada is also a _position_ from which to fight as well (stick arm across the body setting one up for an abanico strike). It could very well be that this is what Ernesto meant when he said he did serrada. It's like fighting from a right or left lead. Something to think about.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Yeah, That's cool!

I remember the 80's series had several cool L v R techniques which GM Presas demonstrated, particularly a strip and an abanico that came out of nowhere from the this position.

The later videos used entries from the open positon left against the closed right position.

The first indicator that you were a "TB" was to reverse the driving/lead role.

The second indicator that you were a "TB" was to be able to enter at will from any entry.

The third indicator was when you said "screw it" and countered each counter at will (AndyZ and Aldon, I hate you)!


----------



## monkey

Ok   I Got it finealy from what you stated Mr Andrson;

           In Balinntawak   Ramond Tabosa had such great serada players under him.Some of these were Friends & did train of & on with the Preasa line as well I had time under them.Yet didnt know that they themselvs were being
tought Balintawak.
           Here are the serrada players  Bonifacio Lanzaga & Telesfero Subinb Subing.They just called it Escrima & didnt use the term serrada only like Angle.Here is the means to the missing thred that links Ernestos Serrada & some of the close range Remy had.
           I told you it could be!!!Wow--that is unque in it  self that those who enspired such had a melting pot & yet it could couse just enough friction to separate.I could see were 1 of the Presas brothers would demo something of it & the other might be mad as 
escrima had alot of conflicks & confrontaions.


----------



## Rich Parsons

monkey said:
			
		

> It's come to my attention, through personal research, that it is quite probable that Remy Presas was the most prominent and active creator of Modern Arnis. I have read many different articles, some in favor of Remy and some for Ernesto, as far as who was the founder. What I have found has lead me to believe Remy was the prime creator, but with assistance from his brother Ernesto.
> Check out this site for more info:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remy_Presas



Tom,

The creation of the Art was his.

The name of the art came from his wife.

I take nothing away frmo GM Ernesto's accomplishments, but he was not the creator.

Just like another well know FMA GM who told I think it was Inside Kunf Fu in the 70's that he was the GM of Modern Arnis. After Gm remy showed up to their office with his Book which had his picture on it and it said Father of Modern Arnis on it. They retracted the preivous article and did an interview with him. 

I understand that in modern society a family can have more than one father. Yet, unless some real high tech is used to split genes from multiple donars of genitic material,  there is usually only one Father of a creation. Just as there is only one Mother of the creation. 

Now I understand that inventions have more than one person. I also understand that multiple people can go into business with each other. 

Yet, in this case. GM Remy was the Father and Creator fo Modern Arnis.  Now should his Brothers be given credit for what they have done? Yes! Should his Father and Grand father also be given credit? Yes. But it was the single mindedness of GM Remy to spread his art, that put his compelte stamp on it.  He was away from his family for long periods and later was separated from them as well for a time period. 

I find it hard to believe that you are now just coming to the same conclusion that the rest of us from multiple organizations and locations, have known from our own research with the late GM and also through others willing to share here.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Tom,
> 
> The creation of the Art was his.
> 
> The name of the art came from his wife.
> 
> I take nothing away frmo GM Ernesto's accomplishments, but he was not the creator.
> 
> Just like another well know FMA GM who told I think it was Inside Kunf Fu in the 70's that he was the GM of Modern Arnis. After Gm remy showed up to their office with his Book which had his picture on it and it said Father of Modern Arnis on it. They retracted the preivous article and did an interview with him.
> 
> I understand that in modern society a family can have more than one father. Yet, unless some real high tech is used to split genes from multiple donars of genitic material, there is usually only one Father of a creation. Just as there is only one Mother of the creation.
> 
> Now I understand that inventions have more than one person. I also understand that multiple people can go into business with each other.
> 
> Yet, in this case. GM Remy was the Father and Creator fo Modern Arnis. Now should his Brothers be given credit for what they have done? Yes! Should his Father and Grand father also be given credit? Yes. But it was the single mindedness of GM Remy to spread his art, that put his compelte stamp on it. He was away from his family for long periods and later was separated from them as well for a time period.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that you are now just coming to the same conclusion that the rest of us from multiple organizations and locations, have known from our own research with the late GM and also through others willing to share here.


 
Yes, this has all been pretty common knowledge!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## seibukan

Why no mention of GM Lazo when discussing the founding of Modern Arnis.


----------



## Rich Parsons

seibukan said:
			
		

> Why no mention of GM Lazo when discussing the founding of Modern Arnis.



Could you explain your qustion further and also give some information please?

Thank you


----------



## Rich Parsons

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Here is something to look at.  Serrada is what Angel Cabales called his art but serrada is also a _position_ from which to fight as well (stick arm across the body setting one up for an abanico strike). It could very well be that this is what Ernesto meant when he said he did serrada. It's like fighting from a right or left lead. Something to think about.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



Dan,

While I do not disagree with the term being used as you  described it, I however was comparing it to the Cabales Serrada (* kind of *), with the motions being used by Tom in his thread "Monkey" in the Members in Motion Forum. 

I know many terms cross over from art to art and respect that. I was speaking speficially to what was demostrated on video by Tom and how it was not Modern Arnis, but at best could be Modern Arnis like at that point but was closer from my understanding to other FMA's. 

Thank you for the discussion on this point though.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hmmm...I'm not so sure but I am going to ask this of Cristino Vasquez, Rene Tongson, and Roberto Presas when I go to the PI in July.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



Dan,

Please do so. Other points of view and data points would be good on this as well. 

Thank you


----------



## Mark Lynn

Tom

I too have studied (only through camps mind you) with both GM Remy and Ernesto and I'm ranked in each one of their systems by them.  In fact both GM Remy and Ernesto signed my Lakan ISA cert in 1995 (under Hock).

So the founding of the systems have been a great interest to me over the years and one that I have asked both of the brothers about.

From my discussions with them and my recollections.
1)  GM Remy did develop MA and not GM Ernesto.

2) Although GM Ernesto taught MA in the PI when he took over when GM Remy was exilled.

3) GM Remy learned his art from his Grandfather, GM Remy's father did not teach him the family system.  He taught GM Ernesto.  I think the Grandfather taught GM Remy palis palis mainly.

4) GM Remy told me that he would travel around and find other FMA players (this is after his Balintawak training) and ask for them to "check his stick" and they would fight.  From there he would defeat them and "own their techniques" and then go on his way.

I took from this conversation that GM Remy would then learn how they did their techniques and to defeat them and incorperate the essecence into his art which finally became MA.

5) GM Remy used his intellect to learn and condense his art.  He told me of how he use to get beat up in the Balintawak training by some of the other players.  So in order to learn how to defeat them he would take the leader (Bacon) out drinking, get him liquered up and then discuss principles behind Balintawak.  Then take what information he gleaned from GM Bacon and apply them in class to learn to defeat the other players.

This is similar to the stories he told me about the "checking other instructors sticks".

6)  From a conversation with Dr. Remy Jr. when I asked him about GM Remy learning other styles, he told me that Rosemary was the educated person that wrote and came up with the names for the techniques in the early books.  So it wasn't that GM Remy learned different styles of play but rather the name was given to the motion of the intial entry of the technique.

So from this I take it that GM Remy might go fight someone and learn their intial entry and such (Crossada, Palis Palis, Force to Force blocking whatever) and then refine it and add it to MA (over time of course).

7)  While GM Ernesto was younger than GM Remy he did learn from his father and others.  He learned some different styles, (Tres Puntos and others) he devloped his own footwork (I think when in college) and he relates it to the Tiki Tiki (?) dance (some of it anyway). 

8) It is reasonable to conclude that there would be cross training and sharing of knowledge between the two brothers when they were running the gym or their organization.

9) Instructors have cross trained more in the PI than here in the states in regards to GM Ernesto's and GM Remy's systems than here in the states.  Master "Bambit" Dulay is on one of GM Ernesto's early tapes from the PI when he was promoting his art as Mano Mano, then later he promoted it as Kombatan.  However the Kombatan players believe that MA is part of their curriculmn and that it is not a "sperate system" more like a sister system.

I believed these arts/systems were seperate but when a student of mine asked GM Ernesto recently about this he said they are the same.

10)  The older students of GM Remy's have a different look about them (guys that date back to the PI), and they resemble the foot work of GM Ernesto more so than what later students of GM look like.  The closer more relaxed positions that look more like Balinktawak (footwork).  Look at the older books of GM Remy's and the stances are longer more classical looking, almost more karate like.  However I think this has more to do with the weapons work than anything else.

FWIW
Years ago (02?) I wrote a description of Kombatan for the Escrima Digest and I asked GM Ernesto these questions and then submitted it.  In that I think I listed more of the sources of GM Ernesto's training.  I've never viewed it and don't know if it is still there, however if anyone is on the ED than you might check out that as well.  Ray Terry I think edited it to fit into the space or to make it easier to read, but it follwoed what I worte pretty well I think.

Mark


----------



## Dan Anderson

seibukan said:
			
		

> Why no mention of GM Lazo when discussing the founding of Modern Arnis.


 
RP never mentioned GM Lazo in any conversations I had with him about the founding of MA.  My understanding is GM Lazo is primarily a Kombatan man.  I may be wrong.

One thing to consider is that often a founder of an art has people around him who spark him in one way or another.  To think they had a hand in the actual _founding_ of an art is wholey a different matter.  An example of this is my founding American Freestyle Karate back in 1977/1978.  I've had _many _sparring partners yet none of them helped me create the curriculum.  I think the same is with Remy Presas.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Rich - I understand where you are going.  Eees cool.  DA

PPS - Mark - Very nicely done post.


----------



## Mark Lynn

Sorry for any misspellings, I thought I proof read my post but I see where I missed some.


----------



## Mark Lynn

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> RP never mentioned GM Lazo in any conversations I had with him about the founding of MA. My understanding is GM Lazo is primarily a Kombatan man. I may be wrong.
> 
> One thing to consider is that often a founder of an art has people around him who spark him in one way or another. To think they had a hand in the actual _founding_ of an art is wholey a different matter. An example of this is my founding American Freestyle Karate back in 1977/1978. I've had _many _sparring partners yet none of them helped me create the curriculum. I think the same is with Remy Presas.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson
> 
> PS - Rich - I understand where you are going. Eees cool. DA


 
Dan

I agree I believe GM Remy had many influeneces in the creation of MA, even karate and judo for that matter.  But the creation of the art is his brainchild.  

Ask "Bambit" about GM Ernesto's system and GM Remy's, had I known about him being on that old tape I have I would have asked him at the International Summer Camp last year.

Mark


----------



## Mark Lynn

Dan

Thanks for the compliment.

hey how did you do that adding to the post after I had quoted you?

Sorry to hear about the Summer Camp being cancelled.  I was looking forward to going when a business trip to Singapore was cancelled and moved to that week.  So I had to bail on the camp.  Then the camp gets cancelled and I find out that the trip was cancelled as well and rescheduled for Sept.

I almost talked my wife into the FMA festival in the PI till we went to our financial advisor   Oh well maybe next time.

Mark


----------



## monkey

Boar man ;   In the history which I have the url on post page #24
It states the Conete art had major play.Could this be were Prof. Remy
had added hi karate & Judo?Also one more quick--While Prof.Remy
did Balintawak I know there were escrima players as part of
the school.Could this be were he added some sarrada?Go to post page #29!
                                                                                                 From the 
Balintawak were these 2 I know of  Bonifacio Lonzaga  & Telesfero Subing Subing? Its good to hear of another player that did Training with both.
I have the class photo when the 2 Remy & Ernesto tought together.It
was fun & inovating. I have stated that Ernsto did the tiki tki dance & the differances he had.I did a thred  Mono y mono--Arjuken--Kombaton
 go to serch & see what I put .You might like it.

                                  Mubuhay


----------



## seibukan

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> RP never mentioned GM Lazo in any conversations I had with him about the founding of MA. My understanding is GM Lazo is primarily a Kombatan man. I may be wrong.
> 
> One thing to consider is that often a founder of an art has people around him who spark him in one way or another. To think they had a hand in the actual _founding_ of an art is wholey a different matter.


 

I dont know all the ins and outs, I maybe wrong, but its my understanding that Fred Lazo and Remy & Ernesto Presas were all friends and they all trained together for quite some time. Its also my understanding that he (Lazo) helped both of them in founding their schools; he was involved to the point of writing their bylaws and what not, and was the Executive Secretary of the Modern Arnis Federation of Remy Presas. 

Im not a historian like many of you (not qualified) but I do train weekly with GM Lazo and this is some of the information he has shared with me.

thanks


----------



## Cruentus

Just saw this and I thought I would be helpful. Ironically the question of Professors training in Japan led me to Mr. Lazo's memorial post here: http://www.martialtalk.com/remy/memories.html

He shows some pics of GM Ernesto and Professor.

As to GM Lazo... what does he teach, exactly? I have only heard of him in passing. But it is a good coincidence that I saw your (seibuken) post here, so I can ask the question from someone who trains with him regularly.

Thanks in advance...

Paul


----------



## Mark Lynn

monkey said:
			
		

> Ok I watch take 2 he stated I leardn from my uncle Leon Bonco..
> 
> I dont recall Leon being Bonco..Maybe it can be reserched by some one.Its on tape 2 of the black belt relese set.As far as I was told Jose Presas y Bonco & then there Was (Stoke & Leon )who were not Bonco.
> 
> There has to be some way to check for sure.
> If they were Bonco then there is some other type of
> bonda y bonda & espad y daga.
> This is were I realy need to understand & we Ernesto said he did serrada!
> Im just as determind & as pastionate on the arts as you.
> 
> If we do unlock this serrada that Ernesto told me of --Then the void of the
> so called split may make more sence as to why!
> It was fun as the 2 tought me in Sacramento 1979-80.
> It might be fun agian to get that union of the arts & void as 1!


 
Tom

Are you saying that GM Remy or GM Ernesto did Serrada?

Because I thought of something while reading these posts, GM Remy when he came here also stayed with GM Max Pallen, who was one of his students in the PI.  Anyway GM Pallen if I'm not mistaken also studied with/trained with/knew Angel Cabalas and his Serrada group in California.

Since that would have been back in the late 70's I would imagine that GM Remy would have done what it seems he always did which was to assimlate other principles arts etc. etc. into his MA.  And this might be a connection.

I have a book/publication written by GM Pallen about his time spent with GM Remy but I can't locate it at the moment.  However I'll see if I can't dig it out to back up this post or to correct it.

I have never seen nor heard of GM Ernesto doing "serrada", nor GM Remy for that matter.  In regards to SM Dan's postings about the hand positions being crossed again I haven't really seen that as a big part of the art.

About the closest thing that looks to my eye like "serrada" in Kombaton is the EYD aspect of the art, and that to me is a stretch.

I'm not calling anyone a lair, poking fun, etc. etc. I too am trying to fill in gaps so that we all can learn about the art together.

Mark


----------



## Mark Lynn

In Tom's (Monkey's) defense

Ok while searching for the Max Pallen publication I ran across some older magazines and in one dated 6/1991 IKF there was an article on GM Ernesto and his system of Mano Mano and here are some quotes.

_The Inro contains these next two quotes_
"As the Father of "Modern Arnis" Ernesto Presas is working to leave his name, his art and his legacy behind...."

"This early training of GM Ernesto Presas was guided by his father; a recognized master of arnis.  Both bothers mastered the classic arnis styles taught by their father.  They participated in local matches and tournaments to show the art of their father and to hone their individual skills."

_"IKF How did your father and family influence your martial arts interest?_
.....The hours I spent watching my father train, and later the time we trained together created this common bond and love of the sport.  My brother Remy and I trained and sparred together as we grew up.  Our father taught us the classic styles and we taught each other by challenging and testing each other....."

"....My father was a master of the art and he taught me the classic styles....."  _This was part of another question_

"IKF _Who were your role models and how did they influence the development of the "Presas Style"_
My father, of course, and my brother Remy.  My brother and I would go out to local competitions and tournaments to show the "art" our father taught us.  We would challenge Philippine experts and teachers.  We wanted to test ourselves against the best and to learn from them as well.  I deleveloped my style based on my father's teachings and incorporating the best from my competitors skills....." 

Now from the above it appears that GM Remy was trained by the father, when GM Ernesto told me GM Remy was taught by his grandfather, and then he went and trained in Balintawak and fought some other masters.  GM Remy told me he fought other masters and combined their teachings/techniques into his art and was taught by his grandfather, which he also states as well on VT.

GM Ernesto combined what he learned from his father and from others to create "Presas Style" arnis and in the article he gives forth the same reasons for modernizing the arnis styles, which is real close to what Remy did.

So can it be that both brothers took what they learned from their sources and what they learned together and went throught the same process of distilling their styles and both called it "Modern Arnis"?

Submitted with respect
Mark


----------



## Rich Parsons

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> In Tom's (Monkey's) defense
> 
> Ok while searching for the Max Pallen publication I ran across some older magazines and in one dated 6/1991 IKF there was an article on GM Ernesto and his system of Mano Mano and here are some quotes.
> 
> _The Inro contains these next two quotes_
> "As the Father of "Modern Arnis" Ernesto Presas is working to leave his name, his art and his legacy behind...."
> 
> "This early training of GM Ernesto Presas was guided by his father; a recognized master of arnis. Both bothers mastered the classic arnis styles taught by their father. They participated in local matches and tournaments to show the art of their father and to hone their individual skills."
> 
> _"IKF How did your father and family influence your martial arts interest?_
> .....The hours I spent watching my father train, and later the time we trained together created this common bond and love of the sport. My brother Remy and I trained and sparred together as we grew up. Our father taught us the classic styles and we taught each other by challenging and testing each other....."
> 
> "....My father was a master of the art and he taught me the classic styles....."  _This was part of another question_
> 
> "IKF _Who were your role models and how did they influence the development of the "Presas Style"_
> My father, of course, and my brother Remy. My brother and I would go out to local competitions and tournaments to show the "art" our father taught us. We would challenge Philippine experts and teachers. We wanted to test ourselves against the best and to learn from them as well. I deleveloped my style based on my father's teachings and incorporating the best from my competitors skills....."
> 
> Now from the above it appears that GM Remy was trained by the father, when GM Ernesto told me GM Remy was taught by his grandfather, and then he went and trained in Balintawak and fought some other masters. GM Remy told me he fought other masters and combined their teachings/techniques into his art and was taught by his grandfather, which he also states as well on VT.
> 
> GM Ernesto combined what he learned from his father and from others to create "Presas Style" arnis and in the article he gives forth the same reasons for modernizing the arnis styles, which is real close to what Remy did.
> 
> So can it be that both brothers took what they learned from their sources and what they learned together and went throught the same process of distilling their styles and both called it "Modern Arnis"?
> 
> Submitted with respect
> Mark



Mark,

Hence why there were some problems between the brothers. 

Also why in the end GM Ernesto changed the name to Kombaton to avoid these issues where now lots of people can look at the history and also look at who said what. 

Which is why I stated in other threads that I think Tom has more knowledge outside of the GM Remy Presas and his teaching.


----------



## Mark Lynn

Sorry my last question about both calling their styles "Modern Arnis".  I guess what I'm asking is that both claim to have modified or modernized their styles of arnis, and they call it as such.  That being the case I can see where Tom stated that GM Ernesto created "Modern Arnis".

Point is while I have always viewed that the two styles are different the Kombaton people tell me they are sister arts or that MA is contained within Kombaton.  I can see where GM Ernesto might say he created MA.  *But not the MA we know as GM Remy's.*


----------



## Mark Lynn

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Mark,
> 
> 1) Hence why there were some problems between the brothers.
> 
> 2) Also why in the end GM Ernesto changed the name to Kombaton to avoid these issues where now lots of people can look at the history and also look at who said what.
> 
> 3) Which is why I stated in other threads that I think Tom has more knowledge outside of the GM Remy Presas and his teaching.


 
Rich

1) Yeah I think the problems between the two brothers might have been related to several things, not really to be discussed here.

2) I'm not sure why GM changed it to Kombaton

3) Not having seen Tom's video clips, I have no clue as to what his knowledge is outside of Gm Remy's teachings.

I was just giving references where some of what Tom said are backed up in print.  I mean he said that GM Ernesto created MA and we all took him to task for it.  However I found in print as early as 91 where that statement was made.  Wheter I agree with it or not is beside the point.  I was just trying to be fair and balanced.

Also Tom states that he trained with GM Ernesto, and if GM Enresto said these things in print (as in the interview) then I can see him possibly telling Tom similar things as well.  Again things that he posted here on the internet, that we took him to task for.

Mark


----------



## Mark Lynn

Rich

I remember reading a thread which a breakdown of monkey's videos/clips were given.  As well as links to his video clips.  Could you tell me what thread they are at.  I've looked and can't locate them.

If I remember right I think someone had mentioned about one of the clips that it looked like Hubd in JKD and so the inference was made that this was an outside source.  GM Ernesto in his flow drills for the empty hand has a drill that looks like Vertical Fist Hubud (from JKD) or the Straight Blast Hubud however it is his EH interpretation of part of his flow drill that is his single stick sparring drill (simialr to Tapi Tapi, Sumbrada etc. etc.), I was trying to see if this is what was meant.

Mark


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Mark,
  Check the Members In Motion forum, under the thread "Monkey". I think thats what you're looking for.

Bob


----------



## Rich Parsons

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Rich
> 
> 1) Yeah I think the problems between the two brothers might have been related to several things, not really to be discussed here.
> 
> 2) I'm not sure why GM changed it to Kombaton
> 
> 3) Not having seen Tom's video clips, I have no clue as to what his knowledge is outside of Gm Remy's teachings.
> 
> I was just giving references where some of what Tom said are backed up in print. I mean he said that GM Ernesto created MA and we all took him to task for it. However I found in print as early as 91 where that statement was made. Wheter I agree with it or not is beside the point. I was just trying to be fair and balanced.
> 
> Also Tom states that he trained with GM Ernesto, and if GM Enresto said these things in print (as in the interview) then I can see him possibly telling Tom similar things as well. Again things that he posted here on the internet, that we took him to task for.
> 
> Mark



1) On this point I have tried and tried not to bring dirty laundry onto this site that GM Remy specifically told me about a story where he told someone that he could be mad at his brother but no one else had the right. Since I heard the two of them talked before his death, I have been told that was behind them. 

My point is that no other GM Ernesto guy is on the net trying to make the points that Tom is. It seems everyone else has a clue about how the two brothers felt and ended up resolving issues and how it seems there was some confusion on what is what and who was who. 

Like I said I am not trying to disrespect GM Ernesto.  That is the last thing I want to do. I am trying to walk a thin line of not bringing up old laundry and helping someone buy a clue that it seems everyone else has gotten out of simpel respect for one or both of the brothers. 

So, Mark if I have offended you or anyone else who studies under GM Ernesto, that was not my intent and also not my desire. My apologies if they are needed will be offered to you and anyone else for any thing that was construed as a slight towards GM Ernesto or his system.


----------



## seibukan

Its my understanding that Modern Arnis in the beginning was the combination of the skills of Ernesto, Remy and Fred Lazo.  All three exchanged arts thus creating Modern Arnis (60-72). At that time MA was just a term used amongst themselves, until GM Lazo (using his own money) registered the name with the Securities and Exchange Commission of the Philippines making it a legal organization.

All three created Modern Arnis,when Remy came to the U.S. he had to call that his Modern Arnis., Ernestos Modern Arnis went on to be come Kombatan and GM Lazo's Modern Arnis  turned into Luzviminda Arnis

PS Im not trying to take anything away from Remy or anyone else, just posting what information I have.

thanks


----------



## Rich Parsons

seibukan said:
			
		

> Its my understanding that Modern Arnis in the beginning was the combination of the skills of Ernesto, Remy and Fred Lazo. All three exchanged arts thus creating Modern Arnis (60-72). At that time MA was just a term used amongst themselves, until GM Lazo (using his own money) registered the name with the Securities and Exchange Commission of the Philippines making it a legal organization.
> 
> All three created Modern Arnis,when Remy came to the U.S. he had to call that his Modern Arnis., Ernestos Modern Arnis went on to be come Kombatan and GM Lazo's Modern Arnis turned into Luzviminda Arnis
> 
> PS Im not trying to take anything away from Remy or anyone else, just posting what information I have.
> 
> thanks



Thank you for the presentation of this information in an unbiased manner.

 :asian:


----------



## seibukan

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Just saw this and I thought I would be helpful. Ironically the question of Professors training in Japan led me to Mr. Lazo's memorial post here: http://www.martialtalk.com/remy/memories.html
> 
> He shows some pics of GM Ernesto and Professor.
> 
> As to GM Lazo... what does he teach, exactly? I have only heard of him in passing. But it is a good coincidence that I saw your (seibuken) post here, so I can ask the question from someone who trains with him regularly.
> 
> Thanks in advance...
> 
> Paul


 
Im still a new student and am not very familiar with the art, So I asked and this was his reply: single stick, sinawali, Bangkaw, tabak at balaraw (espada y daga), dagger vs dagger, kamay sa kamay (mano a mano)

thanks


----------



## Cruentus

seibukan said:
			
		

> Im still a new student and am not very familiar with the art, So I asked and this was his reply: single stick, sinawali, Bangkaw, tabak at balaraw (espada y daga), dagger vs dagger, kamay sa kamay (mano a mano)
> 
> thanks


 
and....



> GM Lazo's Modern Arnis turned into Luzviminda Arnis


 
Cool. That helps and answers my question. It sounds like there is a lot history there with Mr. lazo. 

Thanks for sharing!

Paul


----------



## Mark Lynn

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> 1) On this point I have tried and tried not to bring dirty laundry onto this site that GM Remy specifically told me about a story where he told someone that he could be mad at his brother but no one else had the right. Since I heard the two of them talked before his death, I have been told that was behind them.
> 
> My point is that no other GM Ernesto guy is on the net trying to make the points that Tom is. It seems everyone else has a clue about how the two brothers felt and ended up resolving issues and how it seems there was some confusion on what is what and who was who.
> 
> Like I said I am not trying to disrespect GM Ernesto. That is the last thing I want to do. I am trying to walk a thin line of not bringing up old laundry and helping someone buy a clue that it seems everyone else has gotten out of simpel respect for one or both of the brothers.
> 
> So, Mark if I have offended you or anyone else who studies under GM Ernesto, that was not my intent and also not my desire. My apologies if they are needed will be offered to you and anyone else for any thing that was construed as a slight towards GM Ernesto or his system.


 
Rich

1)  I totally agree here and I wasn't trying to bring anything up either.

I didn't think you or anyone else here were trying to disrespect GM Ernesto, and you haven't offened me at all.  Every thing is cool on my end.

Not knowing Monkey (Tom) when I ran across that article, I was surprised and a bit confused so I thought I would share it.  Seibukan's post kinda of fleshed out what I was trying to get at but didn't have the information.

No Problem here
Mark


----------



## seibukan

Considering his contribution to the founding of Modern Arnis, I hope this information may shed some light on the topic of what came from where regarding the styles that make up Modern Arnis.

GM Lazo was trained by his father Paulino Lazo, Felicisimo Dizon, Mr. Luis Cruz of the Placido Yambao group in a style called Tabak ni Bonifacio, Mateo Estilloso who was an old Arnisador that Ernesto had teaching in his training camp, and he studied for a little bit under another old arnisador named Carungay.

Although I think his biggest influence was his teacher Nicolas Ignacio from Talisay, Cebu. He was a sergeant in the army who had been assigned duty all over the Philippines. He was assigned in the Province of Pangasinan and learned their style and was well versed in the Arnis of the Northern, Central and Southern Philippines 

This is where GM Lazo coined the name for his Arnis,&#8221;Luzviminda&#8221; meaning the three big islands, Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao.


----------



## Rich Parsons

seibukan said:
			
		

> Considering his contribution to the founding of Modern Arnis, I hope this information may shed some light on the topic of what came from where regarding the styles that make up Modern Arnis.
> 
> GM Lazo was trained by his father Paulino Lazo, Felicisimo Dizon, Mr. Luis Cruz of the Placido Yambao group in a style called Tabak ni Bonifacio, Mateo Estilloso who was an old Arnisador that Ernesto had teaching in his training camp, and he studied for a little bit under another old arnisador named Carungay.
> 
> Although I think his biggest influence was his teacher Nicolas Ignacio from Talisay, Cebu. He was a sergeant in the army who had been assigned duty all over the Philippines. He was assigned in the Province of Pangasinan and learned their style and was well versed in the Arnis of the Northern, Central and Southern Philippines
> 
> This is where GM Lazo coined the name for his Arnis,Luzviminda meaning the three big islands, Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao.



Do we know when the three of them started working together on this?

Was it before GM Remy married his wife? 

When exactly was there a registration with the PI securities and what was the registration?

Thank you.


----------



## seibukan

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Do we know when the three of them started working together on this?
> 
> Was it before GM Remy married his wife?
> 
> When exactly was there a registration with the PI securities and what was the registration?
> 
> Thank you.


 
He says he met the Presas brothers in the mid 60s and stayed involved right up until Remy left in 72 and then he left in 75

Yes, Remy was married, He mentioned his wife in the telling of the story

Registered on Sept. 29, 1970:  He has the original copy of the Modern Arnis Federation registration paperwork and I assume its what you need to do in the Philippines if you want your business/organization to be legit


----------



## seibukan

seibukan said:
			
		

> Yes, Remy was married, He mentioned his wife in the telling of the story


 
Of when the paperwork was filed


----------



## Rich Parsons

seibukan said:
			
		

> He says he met the Presas brothers in the mid 60s and stayed involved right up until Remy left in 72 and then he left in 75
> 
> Yes, Remy was married, He mentioned his wife in the telling of the story
> 
> Registered on Sept. 29, 1970:  He has the original copy of the Modern Arnis Federation registration paperwork and I assume its what you need to do in the Philippines if you want your business/organization to be legit



Thank you sir for filling in a little more of the time line.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Can someone place the date of GM Remy and his wife Rosemary?


----------



## seibukan

If it helps any GM Lazo says when he first met Remy he was already married and with kids.


----------



## seibukan

On another note, now that I&#8217;m knee deep into this discussion.

Have my answers to your questions past the scratch test? 

I thought for sure when I began to post that I was going to have my head bit off. (Thanks for being gentle) I&#8217;m a little surprised that none of the senior MA players here have any knowledge of GM Fred Lazo and his part in the creation of Modern Arnis. 

In an effort to fill any gaps in the history of MA you may have and to give the man a little of his due. I am willing to try and get answers for what ever reasonable questions you may have regarding the history of Modern Arnis.

I fully understand there is a certain level of suspicion and disbelief towards my statements, but I would like to think that as the information I provide continues to pass muster that most of you would make an effort to acknowledge GM Federico T. Lazo&#8217;s contributions to Modern Arnis and that some of you may take the step of learning from the Grandmaster.

thanks


----------



## seibukan

seibukan said:
			
		

> Have my answers to your questions *past* the scratch test?


passed 


thanks


----------



## Rich Parsons

seibukan said:
			
		

> On another note, now that Im knee deep into this discussion.
> 
> Have my answers to your questions past the scratch test?
> 
> I thought for sure when I began to post that I was going to have my head bit off. (Thanks for being gentle) Im a little surprised that none of the senior MA players here have any knowledge of GM Fred Lazo and his part in the creation of Modern Arnis.
> 
> In an effort to fill any gaps in the history of MA you may have and to give the man a little of his due. I am willing to try and get answers for what ever reasonable questions you may have regarding the history of Modern Arnis.
> 
> I fully understand there is a certain level of suspicion and disbelief towards my statements, but I would like to think that as the information I provide continues to pass muster that most of you would make an effort to acknowledge GM Federico T. Lazos contributions to Modern Arnis and that some of you may take the step of learning from the Grandmaster.
> 
> thanks



Verbal knowledge that is small and limted. So, as to not pass on false information it is better to not say anything but to keep an open mind.

I had heard the name before. I knew he was around near the beginning. 

Nothing more than that. No disrespect meant.

As to not ripping your head off, well some might do and some might not. But if you present comments that are clear and concise and understandable people can get theri hands around them and let them digest. Yet if you only make claims about GM Lazo and the others you train with then it is hard to take what you write at facevalue. 

** Evil Grin **

Besides we might just need more information before we can present a good case in an argument/discussion.

Thanks


----------



## seibukan

I noted from the get go that I was a student of GM Lazo and he is my only source of information.

Im sure whatever information I post will be bullet proof so please feel free to FIRE AT WILL

**Very Confident, Give Me What You Got Smirk**

Rich, Thank you taking part in this discussion with me, Mr. Anderson was quick to try and sideline me, but now has nothing to say.


----------



## Guro Harold

I have met GM Lazo, who is a man rich in history and humility, who also is a very knowledgeable and patient teacher (remembering  a cane control move that he showed that can break both wrist).

As far as what someone fails to mention being held as a standard, I have two points to make:

I) Dan, not picking on you, but GM Presas never mentioned you personally or publically when he conducted seminars in Raleigh, NC. Does that mean that you did not exist or lighten your contributions, no.

II) Some time ago, a date of mine noticed a tatoo on my father's arm and asked what did the tatoo say, which was, "I Love Nina". Well my mother's name is not Nina and my Father never bothered to mention who Nina was. I vaguely remember when I was a child that he said that the tatoo said, "I Love Lucy".


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I am sure that GM Ernesto and GM Lazo both had significant impact on the founding of Modern Arnis.  However, I do not think that their is any evidence that it was not all GM Remy Presas in the end who actually is the founder.  Both GM Ernesto Presas and GM Lazo both went on to found their own arts respectively.  I am sure that they did this to distinguish themselves and their differances in training and teaching as compared to GM Remy Presas.  Regardless, GM Ernesto Presas and GM Lazo probably have a ton to offer and I for one would like the opportunity to train with them in the near future.  I have seen Ernesto move (in person) and he moves great and yet differently than his brother.  Bottom line it is nice to hear about GM Lazo and his contribution to Modern Arnis.  I would love to see some video clips of : Luzviminda Arnis!  
:asian:


Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Dan Anderson

seibukan said:
			
		

> Rich, Thank you taking part in this discussion with me, Mr. Anderson was quick to try and sideline me, but now has nothing to say.


Seibukan,

Howdy.  I have been barely following this thread.  I have gone through it over the last couple of minutes and there has been no attempt to sideline you or anybody else.  Wrong interpretation of what I posted entirely.  All I said what that RP never mentioned GM _to me._.

Palusut,
No need for RP to mention me in NC.  My reputation preceeds me and therefore I need no mention. :boing2:     

Very famously yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson

Now that the public beating up of Monkey has cooled down a bit, here is an observation based what I have read.

I don't think Monkey has been in so much of a baiting mode as he has just been out of touch with the everyday Modern Arnis world.  He got this title (just like a bunch of us) and ranking but has been in California doing whatever he has been doing and has not kept up with the rest of the development of MA.  Also, seeing Remy and Ernesto together once would give a totally different impression of their relationship from what Remy told and countless others how it was.  His typing/grammer skills haven't helped much in terms of seeing where he is coming from either.

The key thing I see here is his needing to be brought up to speed with the rest of us.  If you're out of touch, that's what is needed and wanted.

My two cents worth.  

Off to the PI in two weeks for the first Remy Presas Festival.  This ought to be great!  I'll let you all know how it went.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Cruentus

I respect your observation, Dan. I really do; you are good at being diplomatic.

Since I am terrible at being diplomatic, I have a different take.

I can respect that Mr. Carnes has been "out of the loop," however, people have to be personally responsible for their own knowledge when it is available. This isn't a year after Professors passing where there was limited information and a lot of unanswered questions. This is 2006, people have moved on, and the information is out there for all who would seek it. Doing a few Internet seaches and talking to a few people would have done the trick.

Mr. Carnes didn't come on board asking questions in the spirit of learning. People would have been happy to point him in the right direction to help bring him up to speed. No....Mr. Carnes came on board with all the answers. I mean ALL of them....regarding Modern Arnis, JKD, boxing, kenpo, and the list continues.

He came on board with a clear agenda. That agenda, at the very least anyway, was to present himself as an all knowing individual. It was through this process and presentation that he was very insulting to legitimate leaders of Modern Arnis and other communities and arts, and very annoying for most of us to put up with. As one example, he went as far as derailing a memorial thread for the passing of Mrs. Parker to be self-promoting and proclaiming; which I know was particularly offensive to more then one person.

Well, his agenda and behavior backfired, as I see he is now a banned user. I don't know the exact reason for the ban, yet sadly, it is safe to say that he won't be missed. Because he is banned, I won't be saying much more regarding him, as he is not here to defend himself.

I will say this, however. Putting myself in la-la land for a moment where titles and rank matter, and where "Guardian" is a legitimate Modern Arnis title (this is the same la la land where white boys from California are raised as Shaolin Monks, where "ninja guns" are practical, and where "forrest gumping" yourself into history would actually fool people) it would definatily be the stupidest and most pointless title we have to date.

If I were Mr. Carnes, I would seek help; as in professional help from a psychologist. Then, when I'm all better, I would piece together my training and experiences that were VALID, and I would approach things in the spirit of learning...as that path will take me a lot further then any other in this field of study.

Paul Janulis

P.S. off topic, but Dan...good luck in the PI and COME BACK SAFE! I get to call you when you return to get the 1st hand scoop on how things went (and your take on how Balute eggs taste)!


----------



## kruzada

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Off to the PI in two weeks for the first Remy Presas Festival.  This ought to be great!  I'll let you all know how it went.



My brother Rico Acosta will be at the Memorial Camp. He is also teaching at the 3rd FMA Festival, I'm sure Master Bambit will introduce him to you.

I wish I could be there. Have a great time!

-Rich


----------



## modarnis

kruzada said:
			
		

> My brother Rico Acosta will be at the Memorial Camp. He is also teaching at the 3rd FMA Festival, I'm sure Master Bambit will introduce him to you.
> 
> I wish I could be there. Have a great time!
> 
> -Rich


 
Rich,

Have him look for Brian Zawilinski from CT while he is there.  Brian will be travelling with Master Bambit.


----------



## seibukan

Dan Anderson said:


> RP never mentioned GM Lazo in any conversations I had with him about the founding of MA. My understanding is GM Lazo is primarily a Kombatan man. I may be wrong.
> 
> One thing to consider is that often a founder of an art has people around him who spark him in one way or another. To think they had a hand in the actual founding of an art is wholey a different matter. An example of this is my founding American Freestyle Karate back in 1977/1978. I've had many sparring partners yet none of them helped me create the curriculum. I think the same is with Remy Presas.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Dan Anderson
> PS - Rich - I understand where you are going. Eees cool. DA
> PPS - Mark - Very nicely done post.






Sorry for the thread necromancy but I figured some of you may be interested in seeing the original documents regarding the founding of Modern Arnis  http://www.lakb.net/gmlazo.html


----------



## Cruentus

Interesting site. Looks good; I'll have to read it when I have more time. Is GM Lazo a left hander too, out of curiousity?


----------



## seibukan

Yes he is.


----------



## seibukan




----------



## modarnis

It is always great to see written history of Modern Arnis.


----------



## Guro Harold

Interesting.

The documents supports that Lakan was a probably a category of rank rather than an individual rank by itself. Please refer to this thread.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Palusut said:


> Interesting.
> 
> The documents supports that Lakan was a probably a category of rank rather than an individual rank by itself. Please refer to this thread.



It is almost exactly the same in the "Pink Book" - The difference is in White where it lists 6 ranks.


----------



## Morgan

Rich Parsons said:


> It is almost exactly the same in the "Pink Book" - The difference is in White where it lists 6 ranks.


 
I'm sorry, I don't understand the term "Pink BooK".  Would you be so kind as to specify the book title and year of publication and edition if appropriate.  What are the six ranks list?  Your post seems to imply that there are several rank listings.  Is that true?  If so what is the correct ranking list or at least which list was in common use at the time of Professor's illnes?

Thanks in advance for the clarifications.

Morgan


----------



## Guro Harold

Morgan said:


> I'm sorry, I don't understand the term "Pink BooK". Would you be so kind as to specify the book title and year of publication and edition if appropriate. What are the six ranks list? Your post seems to imply that there are several rank listings. Is that true? If so what is the correct ranking list or at least which list was in common use at the time of Professor's illnes?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the clarifications.
> 
> Morgan


Hi Morgan,

Please see these threads for references for the "pink book."

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=466789&postcount=3
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202936&postcount=1

Thanks,

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator


----------



## Morgan

Palusut said:


> Interesting.
> 
> The documents supports that Lakan was a probably a category of rank rather than an individual rank by itself. Please refer to this thread.


 
Dear Palusut,

I have to disagree with your contention.  The catagories are Male/Lakan and Female/Dayang.  The ranks are Lakan/Dayang Isa, Lakan/Dayang Dalawa, Lakan/Dayang Tatalo, etc. through Lakan/Dayang Sampu.  In other words Male or Female Black Belt holders, numbers 1 - 10.

Within the document as I read and understood it there are only 3 belt colours, White, Brown and Black.  The white Belt has only 1 level, Brown Belt has 3 levels and Black Belt has 10 levels.  There is no probationary level Black Belt.

Of course I am quite willing to accept the idea that a probationary belt level was created and used in actual practice, however, that is seperate from and not mentioned in the document.  I'm curious about where and how you came up with the probationary thing from this document?

Morgan


----------



## Guro Harold

Morgan said:


> Dear Palusut,
> 
> I have to disagree with your contention. The catagories are Male/Lakan and Female/Dayang. The ranks are Lakan/Dayang Isa, Lakan/Dayang Dalawa, Lakan/Dayang Tatalo, etc. through Lakan/Dayang Sampu. In other words Male or Female Black Belt holders, numbers 1 - 10.
> 
> Within the document as I read and understood it there are only 3 belt colours, White, Brown and Black. The white Belt has only 1 level, Brown Belt has 3 levels and Black Belt has 10 levels. There is no probationary level Black Belt.
> 
> Of course I am quite willing to accept the idea that a probationary belt level was created and used in actual practice, however, that is seperate from and not mentioned in the document. I'm curious about where and how you came up with the probationary thing from this document?
> 
> Morgan


Hi Morgan,

By all means there is no expectation of uniformity in agreement.

Also, the definition of category is in the most generalized form, per Webster.com:

"*1* *:* any of several fundamental and distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong
*2* *:* a division within a system of classification"

Therefore rank can be a category as well.

Finally, the discussion thread of Probationary Black Belts was listed.

Thanks,

Palusut


----------



## Rich Parsons

Morgan said:


> I'm sorry, I don't understand the term "Pink BooK". Would you be so kind as to specify the book title and year of publication and edition if appropriate. What are the six ranks list? Your post seems to imply that there are several rank listings. Is that true? If so what is the correct ranking list or at least which list was in common use at the time of Professor's illnes?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the clarifications.
> 
> Morgan



My Dear Morgan.

For someone who seems to understand a lot about Modern Arnis and knows alot about the history and knows the "right" Questions to ask, or the "Right" things to be ... , . 

Well to answer your question:

Modern Arnis
Philippine MArtial Art
"Stick Fighting"

Cover Art is GM Remy Presas and Roland Dantes at Madison Square Garden, 1976

1st US. Edition
by: Remy Amador Presas
Founder of Modern Arnis

ISBN:
0-9657796-0-2


First Philipines Edition, 1974
2nd Printing, April 1975
3rd Printing, July 1975
4th Printing, August 1978
5th Printing, December 1980
6th Printing, September 1993

First US Edition, April 1997

** The Prodominant color is Pink on the book **

In the Appendices start at the back of the book. Count 11 pages back. 
"Ranking of Players in Modern Arnis"

Table in lower right hand corner: (* please excuse the poor spacing as white spaces are removed *)
Belt -------------------------------- Male ------------- Female ---------
White: 1 - 6:  Antas Isa - Anim ------ Likas ------------- Likas
Brown (Blue Rim) -------------------- Lihka ------------- Lihka
 1st -------------------------------- Isa --------------- Isa
 2nd -------------------------------- Delawa ----------- Delawa
 3rd -------------------------------- Tatlo ------------- Tatlo
Black (Red Rimmed) ------------------ Lakan ------------ Dayang
 1st Dan ---------------------------- Isa --------------- Isa
 2nd Dan ---------------------------- Delawa ----------- Delawa
 3rd Dan ---------------------------- Tatlo ------------- Tatlo
 4th Dan ---------------------------- Apat -------------- Apat
 5th Dan ---------------------------- Lima -------------- Lima
 6th Dan ---------------------------- Anim -------------- Anim
 7th Dan ---------------------------- Pito --------------- Pito
 8th Dan ---------------------------- Walo -------------- Walo
 9th Dan ---------------------------- Sayam ------------ Sayam
 19th Dan --------------------------- Sampo ------------ Sampo


*******************************************************

So if you look at the original document above it say White then Brown ... ,. 

In the table from the Book it has 6 degrees of white or 6 ranks of white.

Hence my comment it looks almost the same as in the Pink Book except. I was not saying the Pink Book predated the original documents. I did not say it was the only ranking system used. 

I repeat it I said it was almost the same as in the Pink Book. Meaning I see the continuity. 

By the way Tim Hartman has copies of this book as does members of the IMAF (* Dr Schea *) group. It would be good to get a copy.


----------



## Dieter

Hello Rich;

I have the 4th edition of the book and the american version (GM with Roland Dantes on the cover).
In my Filipino edition, it says: 

4th Printing, June 1980  

The first 3 are the same as you wrote. anyway, there is a distinct difference between those books regarding the gradings. 
You are absolutely right with the gradings, as they are written in the last, US version. 
But in the original pink book form the Philippines, 4th Edition from June 1980, the ranks are EXACTLY the same as in the documents presented above.

I have scanned it and here is the link the picture, so you can have a look:






So Professor Remy has changed it a bit for the american students by the look of it.

Regards


Dieter

*Mod Note:

Changed url to embedded picture.

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator*


Thank you. Much better this way.

Dieter


----------



## Morgan

Rich Parsons said:


> My Dear Morgan.
> 
> For someone who seems to understand a lot about Modern Arnis and knows alot about the history and knows the "right" Questions to ask, or the "Right" things to be ... , .
> 
> Well to answer your question:
> 
> Modern Arnis
> Philippine MArtial Art
> "Stick Fighting"
> 
> Cover Art is GM Remy Presas and Roland Dantes at Madison Square Garden, 1976
> 
> 1st US. Edition
> by: Remy Amador Presas
> Founder of Modern Arnis
> 
> ISBN:
> 0-9657796-0-2
> 
> 
> First Philipines Edition, 1974
> 2nd Printing, April 1975
> 3rd Printing, July 1975
> 4th Printing, August 1978
> 5th Printing, December 1980
> 6th Printing, September 1993
> 
> First US Edition, April 1997
> 
> ** The Prodominant color is Pink on the book **
> 
> In the Appendices start at the back of the book. Count 11 pages back.
> "Ranking of Players in Modern Arnis"
> 
> Table in lower right hand corner: (* please excuse the poor spacing as white spaces are removed *)
> Belt -------------------------------- Male ------------- Female ---------
> White: 1 - 6: Antas Isa - Anim ------ Likas ------------- Likas
> Brown (Blue Rim) -------------------- Lihka ------------- Lihka
> 1st -------------------------------- Isa --------------- Isa
> 2nd -------------------------------- Delawa ----------- Delawa
> 3rd -------------------------------- Tatlo ------------- Tatlo
> Black (Red Rimmed) ------------------ Lakan ------------ Dayang
> 1st Dan ---------------------------- Isa --------------- Isa
> 2nd Dan ---------------------------- Delawa ----------- Delawa
> 3rd Dan ---------------------------- Tatlo ------------- Tatlo
> 4th Dan ---------------------------- Apat -------------- Apat
> 5th Dan ---------------------------- Lima -------------- Lima
> 6th Dan ---------------------------- Anim -------------- Anim
> 7th Dan ---------------------------- Pito --------------- Pito
> 8th Dan ---------------------------- Walo -------------- Walo
> 9th Dan ---------------------------- Sayam ------------ Sayam
> 19th Dan --------------------------- Sampo ------------ Sampo
> 
> 
> *******************************************************
> 
> So if you look at the original document above it say White then Brown ... ,.
> 
> In the table from the Book it has 6 degrees of white or 6 ranks of white.
> 
> Hence my comment it looks almost the same as in the Pink Book except. I was not saying the Pink Book predated the original documents. I did not say it was the only ranking system used.
> 
> I repeat it I said it was almost the same as in the Pink Book. Meaning I see the continuity.
> 
> By the way Tim Hartman has copies of this book as does members of the IMAF (* Dr Schea *) group. It would be good to get a copy.


 
Thank you for your very through reply, I appriciate it, Mr. Parsons.  With regard to your comment:

"For someone who seems to understand a lot about Modern Arnis and knows alot about the history and knows the "right" Questions to ask, or the "Right" things to be ... , ."

Thanks again... I know a lot because I've read a lot. I had a very good teacher who taught Kenpo and then added Modern Arnis to our system as an 'add on and backup art' because she believed that the Kenpo weapons training wasn't as complete as it could be from her perspective.  12 years of training under a single instructor and program tends to develop a strong background if the student is alive, alert and curious - I am all 3.

I'll get a copy of the book and then read it several times cover to cover.  The "pink book" designation was useless to me, but your complete citation makes it very easy for me to obtain a copy:
-------------------------------------------------------
Modern Arnis
Philippine MArtial Art
"Stick Fighting"

Cover Art is GM Remy Presas and Roland Dantes at Madison Square Garden, 1976

1st US. Edition
by: Remy Amador Presas
Founder of Modern Arnis

ISBN:
0-9657796-0-2


First Philipines Edition, 1974
2nd Printing, April 1975
3rd Printing, July 1975
4th Printing, August 1978
5th Printing, December 1980
6th Printing, September 1993

First US Edition, April 1997
-------------------------------------------------------------------

For those of us who are not WMAA members and who have not gained access to some of the coded, insider phrases, the need for a citation shouldn't be a surprise...

Respectfully,

Morgan


----------



## Cruentus

Just to be clear, the question here is if the "Black------Lakan/Dayang" category was seperate rank itself, or the title of the category of "black belt" ranks. In other words, did one earn a "Lakan" then a "Lakan Isa" after brown? Or, was "Lakan Isa" the next rank after brown.

By the looks of these documents and pink books, "Lakan/Dayang" was just the name of the category "Black," as "Likah" is the name of the category "brown." I don't think anyone has yet referenced a time when there were 4 levels of brown rather then 3; so it can be assumed that "Black....Lakan/Dayang" is only the name of the category and not an actual rank, and that the 1st black belt one would earn according to these documents would be "Lakan Isa."

The question only arises because as many things Modern Arnis, Professor did many things at different times. In the past, before my time, I understand that when one earned a black belt, they earned "Lakan Isa." However, in the mid 90's at the camps in the Midwest and Northeast, "Lakan" was issued as a seperate rank, before "Lakan Isa." This was due to certain people who were helping out administratively who came from Karate backgrounds, and who felt more comfortable with the idea of having a "probationary black belt" before the "real black belt," as it were. So they pressured Professor to make that change. The "Lakan" that was issued had an expiration date set a year out, where I believe the Lakan Isa and up expired 3 years out. There were some that didn't have an expiration date written on their certs, but not many.

So, that is why there is a question at all; it wasn't done the same way throughout Modern Arnis history while Professor was alive.

Question I have is this: Do some of the organizations do "Lakan" as a seperate rank as it was done in the mid-90's? Or does everyone pretty much adhere to the way it was before, and the way it was written in these documents?

Anyway, this is the issue as I see it and remember it; I apologize in advance for any lack of clarity or accuracy in what I have typed.

Thank you.


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## Guro Harold

Cruentus said:


> Just to be clear, the question here is if the "Black------Lakan/Dayang" category was seperate rank itself, or the title of the category of "black belt" ranks. In other words, did one earn a "Lakan" then a "Lakan Isa" after brown? Or, was "Lakan Isa" the next rank after brown.
> 
> By the looks of these documents and pink books, "Lakan/Dayang" was just the name of the category "Black," as "Likah" is the name of the category "brown." I don't think anyone has yet referenced a time when there were 4 levels of brown rather then 3; so it can be assumed that "Black....Lakan/Dayang" is only the name of the category and not an actual rank, and that the 1st black belt one would earn according to these documents would be "Lakan Isa."
> 
> The question only arises because as many things Modern Arnis, Professor did many things at different times. In the past, before my time, I understand that when one earned a black belt, they earned "Lakan Isa." However, in the mid 90's at the camps in the Midwest and Northeast, "Lakan" was issued as a seperate rank, before "Lakan Isa." This was due to certain people who were helping out administratively who came from Karate backgrounds, and who felt more comfortable with the idea of having a "probationary black belt" before the "real black belt," as it were. So they pressured Professor to make that change. The "Lakan" that was issued had an expiration date set a year out, where I believe the Lakan Isa and up expired 3 years out. There were some that didn't have an expiration date written on their certs, but not many.
> 
> So, that is why there is a question at all; it wasn't done the same way throughout Modern Arnis history while Professor was alive.
> 
> Question I have is this: Do some of the organizations do "Lakan" as a seperate rank as it was done in the mid-90's? Or does everyone pretty much adhere to the way it was before, and the way it was written in these documents?
> 
> Anyway, this is the issue as I see it and remember it; I apologize in advance for any lack of clarity or accuracy in what I have typed.
> 
> Thank you.


Hi Cruentus,

As far as I know, both IMAF (Delany's and MOTTs) issue Lakan Zeros (Probationary Black Belts). This was one of the reasons for the thread/poll -  "Probationary Black Belt:Crock or Not".

Thanks,

Palusut


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## Cruentus

Palusut said:


> Hi Cruentus,
> 
> As far as I know, both IMAF (Delany's and MOTTs) issue Lakan Zeros (Probationary Black Belts). This was one of the reasons for the thread/poll - "Probationary Black Belt:Crock or Not".
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Palusut


 
Right. That makes sense, as I remember that some of those individuals were in support of the idea way back then.

Also, I am remembering now that you mention that old thread, that in the 80's someone had mentioned that probationary lakans still wore the brown belt, but recieved the lakan cert. I personally was told to wear the black belt, but recieved the lakan cert. before my lakan isa. So, it is just interesting to note how things change. According to these documents, as it was in the books, there was no "probabtionary black" and "lakan" was not a seperate rank. But as we can see, things changed as Professor saw fit. And for each individual organization, things will change as those leaders see fit.

And the world moves on...


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## Dieter

hi,

just my 2 cents and admitted, I am guessing.
It seems to be clar, that in the Philippines at least according to the book, there was no "Lakan 0" rank between brown and Lakan Isa.
At one time, this rank must have been added by GM Remy, most probably during his american time.

So now the guessing part:
Professor Presas was a man, that wanted to make people happy with his teaching and his Modern Arnis. But what does make a martial artist unhappier, than a failed black belt exam? This is, what most western people train for. To reach the black belt.
And then he fails. What a sad experience. 
So then I can imagine very well, that GM Remy said, no, you did not fail, you get a probationary balck belt and you have to make Lakan Isa within the next year. This for sure made the people feel better.
They did not fail. And then, this may hav gotte a habit, that first there is the Lakan, and only then, Lakan Isa.

It would be interesting to know, which groups still have the Lakan 0 and then the Lakan Isa and which groups go straight to Lakan Isa.
What would also be interesting from those groups that use the Lakan 0, if the program for Lakan 0 and Lakan Isa is the same ort a differen one.


We in the DAV do not use the Laka 0. After brown, you go straight to Lakan Isa.



Regards


Dieter Knüttel


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## Guro Harold

Hi Dieter,

This is only my impression based on the camp experiences (Southeast US only) that I have attended:

- No matter how good you were and how well you knew the material, when you tested at camp there were a couple of tracks:

- Fast track
-----------
- Green (Level 5)
- Lakan Zero/Isa - depending on who tested you.

- Rapid Track
-------------
- Green (Level 5)
- Brown
- Lakan Zero/Isa - depending on who tested you.

- Median Track
--------------
- Blue
- Green
- Brown
- Lakan Zero/Isa - depending on who tested you.

- Gradual Track
---------------
- rank by rank

Notes:
------
- The Professor did not hand out Probationary Black Belts. If a person was not up to par, they stayed on the gradual track or they failed the Probationary Test.
- I got the understanding (or misunderstanding) that the Probationary Belt was in response to people getting their 1st degree black, then dropping out.
- There were a certain amount of camps that a person had to have attended no matter how much they knew the material or how good they were.

The notes again were subjective.

Best regards,

Harold


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## Cruentus

Dieter said:


> So now the guessing part:
> Professor Presas was a man, that wanted to make people happy with his teaching and his Modern Arnis. But what does make a martial artist unhappier, than a failed black belt exam? This is, what most western people train for. To reach the black belt.
> And then he fails. What a sad experience.
> So then I can imagine very well, that GM Remy said, no, you did not fail, you get a probationary balck belt and you have to make Lakan Isa within the next year. This for sure made the people feel better.
> They did not fail. And then, this may hav gotte a habit, that first there is the Lakan, and only then, Lakan Isa.
> 
> Dieter Knüttel


 
Hi Datu.

You have mentioned this before in the other thread. Although it is a sound theory, and although that I think that promotional compromise may have been true for some individuals (specifically those who were meaning to skip one or two ranks, and instead got a rank below what they were origionally testing for and told to try again at another test), I don't think that this was the case as a whole.

What I saw was more in line with Harolds comments. Professor tended to allow people around him who were helping out with various administrative concerns to influence how things occured at an organizational level. This could be anything from how forms were taught to how tests were run to the ranking structure. It is my perception that some of these individuals who came from previous styles influenced Professor to have a rank 0. It was never explicitly clear whether this was probationary or not; I had people refer to me and my rank at the time when I was "lakan 0" as a "probationary" black, while Professor always just said I was a black belt.

The reasoning behind the rank 0 as it was explained to me was as Harold put it; there was a feeling that too many people would recieve Lakan Isa, would go out and teach and never return for training. The Lakan 0 structure, with expiration dates, was supposed to mitigate that behavior.

I will concur with you, however, that "Lakan 0" was really a newer thing that was invented in the states in the 90's rather then something that was always in place.


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## Dieter

Hello Cruentus and Palusut,  

as I wrote, I was only speculating. 
Thanks for your observations. I take your word for it.  

When we had gradings with the Professor in Germany, we always handled it the DAV way, regarding program and testing. He had a look at the people and afterwards we all sat together to discuss the results.  

One time, with 2 students, we wanted to fail them, because they were not good, GM Remy said: give them probational black belt. For we don't have his they failed.  

This is why I speculated this way, but then again you might know much better from having attended much more American camps than I did.  

Thanks for the input.   

Regards   


Dieter


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## Cruentus

Dieter said:


> Hello Cruentus and Palusut,
> 
> One time, with 2 students, we wanted to fail them, because they were not good, GM Remy said: give them probational black belt. For we don't have his they failed.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Dieter


 
Yup, that sounds like Professor; always willing to compromise and try to make everyone happy.  I remember some cases like that too. Usually it was when someone was trying to skip 2 or 3 levels of brown to get a black when they weren't really ready for it, and as a compromise they would get something, just not what they were testing for. When I was on the testing board that happened a few times.

So I can see what you are saying, even though I think the original purpose for Lakan 0 was not due to this compromise.


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