# Taekwondo curriculum content and teaching methodology



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

Everyone seems to focus on the organizations, but I am more curious as to what the differences are between individual schools. Two people in the same organization may have radically different approaches to how and what they teach.

So with that in mind, 

If you are an instructor: 

what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?
What is your curriculum like?
Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?
Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?
If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?
Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?
If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?
Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?
Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?
Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?
If you are not an instructor:

Can you answer the same questions about where you train?
What are your thoughts on the program?
Not looking to do a good/bad, better/worse, superior/inferior contrast between methodologies or curriculums, but more of a 'this is what I do and this is why I do it' so that we can see how similar and how different we are, even within the same organization. If you run a McDojo and your answer as to why you do it is that it pays the mortgage and feeds your family, then that is perfectly acceptable. Not looking to make any value judgements.


If you cannot participate without 'calling BS' on anything that you don't like, then find another thread. If you strongly disagree with a practice and feel obliged to say so, please speak articulately and explain intelligently why you disagree with it, rather than giving middle school level insults.


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Everyone seems to focus on the organizations, but I am more curious as to what the differences are between individual schools. Two people in the same organization may have radically different approaches to how and what they teach.
> 
> So with that in mind,
> 
> ...



Here ya go.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?



Very simple, Kukki-Taekwondo.  Classes are for an hour (children) and are generally 15 minutes warm-up, 15 minutes on basics/poomsae(2), 15 minutes on sparring/drills(3), 10 minutes on other stuff (self-defence, paddle-work, (4)) and a 5 minute cooldown.  Sometimes I'll mix it up and it'll be more of one of 2/3/4 and less of the others (or omitted), but I would say that breakdown is fairly typical.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> What is your curriculum like?



http://dl.dropbox.com/u/478290/Fairlands/syllabus.pdf

This is the grading requirements for each level.  My students are all very junior at the moment, so I haven't tested/refined the higher levels yet, but I thought I'd put it out there.

Also, in case anyone cares, the information I give to new starters is - http://dl.dropbox.com/u/478290/Fairlands/New Starter Information.pdf



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?



No.  I feel these may be useful at commercial clubs and I don't think down on them for doing it, but I'm a small club instructor - I'm not in it to make money, I'm there to help children learn a martial art and grow as people.  For example I charge £2.50 (approx $4) for the training session, whereas most clubs in the nearby area (martial arts, football, dancing, etc) are all charging in the £5 area.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?



I charge £7 (about $10) for a coloured belt/tag test.  These are every 6 months and include a certificate and tag or belt.  These costs are fixed, all gup tests are the same price.

I will be charging more when my students reach poom/dan status, but I haven't decided how much yet.  I'd like it to be enough to include a KKW certificate and an embroidered belt (I guess about £100 or $150 equivalent), but I'll see how it's going at the time as to whether the students can afford that.  The minimum will be the Kukkiwon fee, that's important enough to me that it's mandatory (therefore poom/dan gradings will increase in cost).



Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?



My organisation doesn't charge a fee for gup ranks.  I charge a minimal fee so that the club makes a little profit.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?



I will (as I said, none of my students are there yet) promote them to poom ranks and issue them with a half-red/half-black belt.  If they decided to get their own belt (see above about potentially reducing the fee) then they will not be allowed to wear a full black belt until 15.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?



No, as above.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?



No.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?



I teach hoshinsool as part of the Taekwondo training, it comes from my knowledge of hoshinsool from Taekwondo (that I have been taught by my Grandmaster and instructor, neither of him hold ranking in Hapkido or anything similar).



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?



Later on I may throw in some basic groundwork that I've learnt from BJJ, but not yet and not 100% definite that I'll do this.  If I do, it would be just considered part of my Taekwondo rather than advertising it as BJJ.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you are not an instructor: What are your thoughts on the program?



Although I am, I just thought I'd say that I'm seriously considering putting a small survey in to the parents hands so I can try to get a better feeling for the reasons why students train with me and their feelings on the program.  If I do it and it gives anything interesting, I'll post the results.


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## MAist25 (Feb 27, 2012)

1. What type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?
A. We teach traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do as well as Kukki Taekwondo. Certified through Kukkiwon and the United States Taekwondo Association through the guidance of GM Richard Chun

2. What is your curriculum like?
A. Our curriculum is pretty much based solely off of GM Chun's curriculum. We do conditioning, pad work, bag work, line drills, forms, self defense, 1 steps, 3 steps, sparring, etc. Our dojang does not look like your typical Taekwondo dojang, which is why I love it.

3. Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?
A. No clubs.

4. Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?
A. No belt fees other than the Dan ranks and we only charge what is costs for certification. We do not profit at all from promotions.

5. If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?
A. We don't charge a penny more than what our organizations' require.

6. Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?
A. It depends. Students can choose to receive certification through KKW, the USTA, or both. The USTA does issue Dan ranks to children, the Kukkiwon does not.

7. Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?
A. Like I said, it depends. But yes, children wear black belts.

8. If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?
A. Yes.

9. Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?
A. Yes, we do. We do not certify anybody separately in any weapons system but we train in Arnis de Mano (Lanada System).

10. Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?
A. Yes we do. Our traditional self defense techniques come from GM Chun's curriculum, but we also train in Hapkido under the guidance of GM J.R. West.

11. Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?
A. Yes, we are willing to learn from whoever has something to teach. I have previous training in Jeet Kune Do Concepts, Muay Thai, and Judo so I bring some of those elements to our school. We have also had Judo black belts come in and teach classes, as well as a Silat Suffian Bela Diri practitioner. Our doors are always open!


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 27, 2012)

*what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?*

Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo.  

*What is your curriculum like?
*
Our typical class consists of mixed age and rank, and general curriculum consists of warm up, floor exercise, technique drills, hyungs, 1 step sparing/hoshinsul, free sparring.  I generally attempt to coordinate key elements in each section of class.  

*Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?*

No, we have a flat membership fee that allows you to come to all rank/age appropriate classes.

*Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?*

All promotion examinations are done at the main school (not my branch school), and yes there are exam fees (flat charge for all gup ranks, higher charges for all dan ranks)

*If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?*

N/A

*Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?*

Yes, but no BB under age of 11.

*Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?*

Yes, at BB, you may begin learning the Jang Bong (long staff).  The curriculum comes from my teacher(s).  Consists of learning basic movements, basic forms, and stick to stick drills, not common to spar, as we do not have the safety equipment.  

*Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?*

Yes, again, comes from my teachers(s).  Consists of defense from all attacks (kicks, hand strikes, grabs, chokes, knife attacks, other weapons, etc.)  Some is practiced in a 1 step sparring fashion, others are free style.  At black belt, we begin knife sparring.  The key purpose of our hoshinsul is to develop quick, efficient and effective defenses, they are not flashy (unless preparing for a demonstration, then the focus is shifted to crowd pleasing).  

*Have you grafted on elements of other arts?  If so, what arts and elements?*

In a way yes, and in a way no; My instructor did, and so have I.  Our philosophy is that once you have a solid foundation, adapt anything that works from anything else you have been exposed to your knowledge of Taekwondo.  For my instructor that primarily consisted of Yoshukai and Judo.  For me it is *elements *of Shorei ryu, Shotokan, pukulan silat, bando, wing chun, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, and hapkido.  What I mean by this is that I have friends that practice other arts, and we have worked out together and shared techniques.  I have adopted what works for me (that also fits with our technical philosophy) from what I have learned.  Sometimes it is merely a different variation of a technique I already practice, sometimes it is a new technique, and other times it is an entirely new concept.  Anytime I introduce something like this to my class, it is something that I have practiced extensively with my friends in other arts, so that I am proficient in its application.  I also give credit to where the technique comes from.

**Also, the incorporated techniques mainly come in the form of SD oriented techs for the gups, and more focused techniques/principles for bb's (since they have a firm foundation in our core curriculum).**


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?
> ...


Sounds very similar to the school where I used to train.  What does your swordwork consist of and where did you learn it?


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sounds very similar to the school where I used to train.  What does your swordwork consist of and where did you learn it?



I couldn't tell you, and I have yet to learn much of it. It's BB up and I haven't done much training myself lately. I will find out though.

EDIT: It is kata based and we don't do any weapons sparring. I don't really know a thing about sword arts, but I suspect it's lifted out of another martial art as-is to be honest but I'm not sure, I couldn't hazard a guess as to which one.


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## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Everyone seems to focus on the organizations, but I am more curious as to what the differences are between individual schools. Two people in the same organization may have radically different approaches to how and what they teach.



Good thread.  I hope everyone can stay on track and we can have a productive discussion and perhaps even get some ideas from each other.

*what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?*

My commercial school is a KKW curriculum school.  It has one hour classes with a quick five minute warm up and then they go right into line drills, paddle work and kicking partner held shields.  This takes up most of the hour, but then last 15 minutes is spent on poomsae or sparring.  I plan to change this up, possibly increasing the class length for the adult classes to 1.5 hours and making a lot of other gradual material changes.
*
What is your curriculum like?*
I want to add hogu drills and include substantially more depth with the forms and then  additional material based upon the forms including one/three steps and  hosinsul.  Sparring will need more structure too.  Right now, it's kind  of a sink or swim thing and natural aggression is rewarded over  technique and good footwork. 

*Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?*
No, but there is a slighter higher fee to attend unlimited classes versus only three, so perhaps some of the elements of a BBC is there.  I am thinking about going with a one fee, all you can eat structure.

*Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?*
Previously there was a $50 fee for all belt exams under BB.  I have discontinued this practice as soon I took ownership of the dojang as I have never agreed with the idea of belt test fees.

There is a $250 fee for BB tests.  I see this practice continuing as I prefer to bring in high ranking/credible martial artists for judging panels and I want to compensate them for their time in some small measure.  This will likely be IN ADDITION to any KKW fees for dan registration unfortunately, and likewise those too will need to be paid for by the students if they desire KKW certification.

*If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?*
I'm changing my answer a little here.  They get high quality judging from the guest judges brought in. 

I imagine when we test the next batch of BB candidates and if some of them elect to obtain KKW certification, the school will charge them whatever it costs and no more, aside from the judging fee already mentioned.  I am not a KKW master so we'd be going through the previous dojang owner and he might charge an additional convenience fee, but I don't think he would add on much.
*
Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?*
Yes.  The school will promote kids as young as 10, which is earlier than I would prefer, but as it is a pre-existing practice from before I bought the school, I suppose I must roll with it.

*If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?*
The kids only hold house certificates and they wear regular black belts.  I'd prefer to go the poom route, but again this would be changing the rules midstream.
*
Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?*
Not currently.  I do plan to introduce a formal Okinawan kobudo program later on where authentic instruction in Taira lineage kobudo will be offered.  We'll probably offer ranking in this though traditionally there was no such thing.  At a minimum instruction in bo, tonfa, and sai will be offered.  Maybe nunchaku and eku too perhaps.

*Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?*
Yes, I see this as a major addition and asset to our school.  I have a large set of formal techniques attached to the Chang Hon forms that I devised through my understanding of karate bunkai along with studies in aikido and judo.  I am looking for common points within the KKW poomsae where I can adapt the same library of applications as additional study for the poomsae.

*Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?*
As mentioned above, there will be influences from karate, aikido, and judo.  With the possible exception of aikido, I really don't think the other two are stretches at all to include within the study of TKD, given the training background many of the kwan-era TKD practitioners had.

This and the kobudo mentioned above.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I couldn't tell you, and I have yet to learn much of it. It's BB up and I haven't done much training myself lately. I will find out though.
> 
> EDIT: It is kata based and we don't do any weapons sparring. I don't really know a thing about sword arts, but I suspect it's lifted out of another martial art as-is to be honest but I'm not sure, I couldn't hazard a guess as to which one.


What type of sword is used and what is the nature of the kata?  Is it drawing and cutting or lenthier patterns performed on one's own or is it two person kata (kumitachi)?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Good thread.  I hope everyone can stay on track and we can have a productive discussion and perhaps even get some ideas from each other.



Definitely, I have some things I'd like to discuss from your answers.



dancingalone said:


> My commercial school is a KKW curriculum school.  It has one hour classes with a quick five minute warm up and then they go right into line drills, paddle work and kicking partner held shields.



Interesting that for the same length class, I do a 15 minute warm-up but you only do 5 minutes.  I'd like to get my warm-up time down, but already I feel that I'm cutting it really short.  By the time body temperatures are raised and all joints are rotated warm, we don't have long for stretching (although we do a lot of dynamic stretches during the warm-up), so it's a couple of quick stretches and on.

Could you give a break down of what you do in those 5 minutes?

Do you consider the line drills/paddle work part of the warmup (i.e. do you tell students to take it easy and build up, or is it straight in full speed).



dancingalone said:


> Previously there was a $50 fee for all belt exams under BB.  I have discontinued this practice as soon I took ownership of the dojang as I have never agreed with the idea of belt test fees.



We were never charged for gup tests when I was coming up through the gup ranks. However, most other clubs in the area seem to do it so I decided to charge a small fee that includes the certificate and belt (and includes the training fee for that time too, so that the hall fees are covered).  My wife also tends to bring down some biscuits/cakes/drink for the kids to mini-celebrate straight afterwards.  I don't want to charge a lot nor do I want to be out of pocket for it.  Hopefully you'll agree my fee is fairly nominal.

I would have never had an issue with paying for a test/promotion, so didn't have any second thoughts when I decided to do it.  I also feel that students often value more that which they've had to pay for and earn.  That's why I don't want to promote people for free, nor do I want to do it as just an aside during training "oh by the way, here's a new belt".

However, it's never about me earning a fortune (as you can see from the amounts I charge, I'm not retiring and buying a mercedes from my club's profits any time soon).

So, hopefully that explains my opinion and therefore, out of interest, what's your reason for never agreeing with belt tests?


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## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Interesting that for the same length class, I do a 15 minute warm-up but you only do 5 minutes.  I'd like to get my warm-up time down, but already I feel that I'm cutting it really short.  By the time body temperatures are raised and all joints are rotated warm, we don't have long for stretching (although we do a lot of dynamic stretches during the warm-up), so it's a couple of quick stretches and on.
> 
> Could you give a break down of what you do in those 5 minutes?



It is probably too short.  I'm used to running 1.5-2 hour classes in my home karate dojo, and we definitely had a much longer warm up.  I even threw in some calisthenics and plyometric exercises like burpees while we were doing our line basics.

The 5 minute warmup consists of jumping jacks, pushups, running in place or fake jump ropes, arm/neck/leg twists, and some dynamic stretching.



andyjeffries said:


> Do you consider the line drills/paddle work part of the warmup (i.e. do you tell students to take it easy and build up, or is it straight in full speed).



We do start off lightly but ramp up rather quickly.  



andyjeffries said:


> We were never charged for gup tests when I was coming up through the gup ranks. However, most other clubs in the area seem to do it so I decided to charge a small fee that includes the certificate and belt (and includes the training fee for that time too, so that the hall fees are covered).  My wife also tends to bring down some biscuits/cakes/drink for the kids to mini-celebrate straight afterwards.  I don't want to charge a lot nor do I want to be out of pocket for it.  Hopefully you'll agree my fee is fairly nominal.
> 
> I would have never had an issue with paying for a test/promotion, so didn't have any second thoughts when I decided to do it.  I also feel that students often value more that which they've had to pay for and earn.  That's why I don't want to promote people for free, nor do I want to do it as just an aside during training "oh by the way, here's a new belt".
> 
> ...



I agree 10 bucks isn't much.  You certainly aren't cheating your students.

I've never liked belt tests and I believe I've mentioned the reasons why here before.

I DO award new rank from time to time without a formal test, so it seems inconsistent to charge a fee at some times and not at other times.  It also keeps the financial arrangements simple, I'd rather charge a single all inclusive fee, so the student doesn't have to write extra checks for belt fees, extra seminars, etc.  Most importantly, it keeps the separation clear in my mind (hopefully the students too) that there is no link between money and advancement.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> It is probably too short.  I'm used to running 1.5-2 hour classes in my home karate dojo, and we definitely had a much longer warm up.  I even threw in some calisthenics and plyometric exercises like burpees while we were doing our line basics.
> 
> The 5 minute warmup consists of jumping jacks, pushups, running in place or fake jump ropes, arm/neck/leg twists, and some dynamic stretching.
> 
> We do start off lightly but ramp up rather quickly.



Thanks for that.  Maybe sometime I'll try a reduced time warm-up then use paddles to warm the students up (starting gently and building up).



dancingalone said:


> I agree 10 bucks isn't much.  You certainly aren't cheating your students.
> 
> I've never liked belt tests and I believe I've mentioned the reasons why here before.
> 
> I DO award new rank from time to time without a formal test, so it seems inconsistent to charge a fee at some times and not at other times.  It also keeps the financial arrangements simple, I'd rather charge a single all inclusive fee, so the student doesn't have to write extra checks for belt fees, extra seminars, etc.



Both of those make sense - it is hard to sometimes charge and sometimes not; and if you're charging a monthly fee then it would get awkward to manage.  I charge per session, everyone pays in cash (they could pay by cheque or even bank transfer if they wanted to pay for a whole month, but all the parents just find it easier to pay per session in cash as it's such a small amount - less than a coffee at a nearby coffee shop).  So for the one session every six months when there's a belt test it's easy enough to tell them in advance that for this week it's £7 not £2.50.



dancingalone said:


> Most importantly, it keeps the separation clear in my mind (hopefully the students too) that there is no link between money and advancement.



That's another fair point.  I guess if I were charging what I'd consider a lot (say £30/$50), then it might muddy the waters a bit (as 20 students x £30 is a fair bit of money).  I can see how that would lok like "cha-ching, it's testing time again guys".

However, for the extra £4.50 per student i get, minus the money for belts, certificate printing and post-test snacks, they must know I'm not doing it for the money.  It's obviously not "time to test you so I can raise some cash".

Thanks for your answers.  One of them gave me confidence to try an idea and the other cemented in my mind that what I'm doing isn't evil


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## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

I also wanted to add that promoting a student without a rank test can be very meaningful to students.  I don't do it frequently.  Only when a student is so stellar that it seems pointless to make them wait a few months to receive the recognition from me that they're doing very well indeed.

One of my black belts in karate related at one of our seminars that the event was special to him and went a far ways towards settling his self-confidence for the better.  He had been going through some turmoil at home and was throwing much of his time into training as an escape of sorts, and the promotion out of nowhere made him realize he could channel his tough times into positive goals instead of moping and thinking negatively.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?
> ...


You could announce that you will be shifting from in house certs to KKW pum certs and that in order to conform to KKW regulations, you will be issuing the pum belts with the official certificate.  Make the announcement well in advance of the next dan testing.  

Or, if you have a newsletter, make the announcement there.


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## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You could announce that you will be shifting from in house certs to KKW pum certs and that in order to conform to KKW regulations, you will be issuing the pum belts with the official certificate.  Make the announcement well in advance of the next dan testing.
> 
> Or, if you have a newsletter, make the announcement there.




What do I do with the kiddos already wearing the regular black belt?  Take it away from them and issue them a poom belt instead?  I don't want to 'demote' anyone.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> What do I do with the kiddos already wearing the regular black belt?  Take it away from them and issue them a poom belt instead?  I don't want to 'demote' anyone.



I would say let them keep it.  But when they want to promote to 2nd poom, they need to wear a poom belt or be stuck on their current rank.  That way it's clearly stated to them that going to a poom belt isn't a demotion, it can be a promotion, it depends on the rank.  Also, tell them that it's standard in Korea, the home of their art, and that all under 15s in Korea wear poom belts.

Say they can keep their black belts (you aren't taking them away), but if they want to test again, they need to wear a poom belt after that point.  It's better to be an internationally certified 2nd Poom (and be standing in a more senior place in the class) than to keep their club 1st Dan dojang black belt.

Just my thoughts, but I think it's all in the phrasing.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Thanks for that. *Maybe sometime I'll try a reduced time warm-up then use paddles to warm the students up (starting gently and building up).
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I have visions of you paddling all the kids to warm them up! 

A lot of people have put Judo and/or Judo falls as an added extra, I always feel people should be able to 'land' properly even if they don't do Judo itself, it's so useful.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> What do I do with the kiddos already wearing the regular black belt? Take it away from them and issue them a poom belt instead? I don't want to 'demote' anyone.


No, I'd leave them in their current belts and just make it clear that you are shifting away from in house certificates to KKW certificates.  

Is the current policy an two tiered system where you have junior black belts who later shift to an adult class and then test for a "real black belt" and KKW cert?  

If so, just continue that policy for existing junior black belts and issue no new ones.  You could also maybe offer to convert their current in house junior BBs to a KKW first pum, explaining that any pum grades they earn will automatically convert to a dan with filing of paperwork.  

That way, anyone who opts to keep a solid black belt will test for their ildan just the same as before, while new pum certificates will be issued with pum belts.  Those current junior BBs who opt to register (don't retest them) will move along as before, maybe getting their second or third pum along the way, and will convert upon age fifteen.  If they choose to register, let them keep their current belt; just don't issue any new solid black to child students.  Eventually, all grades will be uniform and at the same time, everyone's current rank is respected.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I have visions of you paddling all the kids to warm them up!



I don't get it - why the smiley face?  You're exactly right...

;-)



Tez3 said:


> A lot of people have put Judo and/or Judo falls as an added extra, I always feel people should be able to 'land' properly even if they don't do Judo itself, it's so useful.



I kind of agree with this (and I was always taught how to breakfall - if for no other reason than take downs during 1 step sparring - but was never told it wasn't a part of TKD).  However, we don't train on mats (at the moment) so I don't want them all breaking their arms trying.  Maybe one day...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I would say let them keep it. *But when they want to promote to 2nd poom, they need to wear a poom belt or be stuck on their current rank.* That way it's clearly stated to them that going to a poom belt isn't a demotion, it can be a promotion, it depends on the rank. Also, tell them that it's standard in Korea, the home of their art, and that all under 15s in Korea wear poom belts.
> 
> Say they can keep their black belts (you aren't taking them away), but if they want to test again, they need to wear a poom belt after that point. It's better to be an internationally certified 2nd Poom (and be standing in a more senior place in the class) than to keep their club 1st Dan dojang black belt.
> 
> Just my thoughts, but I think it's all in the phrasing.


The only real problem is that the current grades are in house.  So there is no 'second pum' for them because they haven't ever been registered as a first pum.

Also, there may be some second or third degree Jr. BBs.  Perhaps the KKW has a skip pum option for this situation?


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I would say let them keep it.  But when they want to promote to 2nd poom, they need to wear a poom belt or be stuck on their current rank.  That way it's clearly stated to them that going to a poom belt isn't a demotion, it can be a promotion, it depends on the rank.  Also, tell them that it's standard in Korea, the home of their art, and that all under 15s in Korea wear poom belts.
> 
> Say they can keep their black belts (you aren't taking them away), but if they want to test again, they need to wear a poom belt after that point.  It's better to be an internationally certified 2nd Poom (and be standing in a more senior place in the class) than to keep their club 1st Dan dojang black belt.
> 
> Just my thoughts, but I think it's all in the phrasing.



You know, Andy, that's a great idea.  I should clarify however that while I support the idea of a poom belt, I'm not fully convinced that I like the KKW poom program in its entirely including how they later convert to full dans.  The way the school works now, kids as young as 10 can promote to 1st dan.  However, they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16 which I think matches KKW requirements, though I'd have to check for sure.  I'm somewhat inclined to keep the same eligibility structure and not have any 2nd or 3rd poom at all, so we don't run into the need for conversions as they grow older.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Is the current policy an two tiered system where you have junior black belts who later shift to an adult class and then test for a "real black belt" and KKW cert?



Right now kids and adults have the same curriculum.  I could see this changing sooner or later, so I do support the poom belt as a means of distinguishing between the two groups.

For that same reason, I'm not necessarily on-board with the KKW poom program as I understand they can be converted into full dan ranks merely upon reaching the proper age, without any re-certification needed in a more difficult program.

I understand the KKW requirements are minimal compared to what I plan eventually to require.  Regardless I don't want to maintain two sets of dans, one KKW and one not.  I'd rather award our own black belts, and if the students want, they can also elect to receive the KKW cert in addition to, not in lieu of.


----------



## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The only real problem is that the current grades are in house.  So there is no 'second pum' for them because they haven't ever been registered as a first pum.
> 
> Also, there may be some second or third degree Jr. BBs.  Perhaps the KKW has a skip pum option for this situation?



As far as I know you could put in for a skip poom, but I don't think you can skip more than one grade.

So you could convert dojang 1st Dans to KKW 2nd Poom, but not dojang 2nd Dans.  However as dancing along says, they only allow 2nd Dan at 16, so there's no issue there (except that they may be dojang 2nd Dans or above and still be in need of a large jump).

I did read in Article 18 of the KKW regulations that it's not a skip dan if it's a dan assimilation (i.e. changing from a dojang dan under a reputable master/association to Kukkiwon) but I don't know if the same "1 rank jump" applies there.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> You know, Andy, that's a great idea. I should clarify however that while I support the idea of a poom belt, I'm not fully convinced that I like the KKW poom program in its entirely including how they later convert to full dans. The way the school works now, kids as young as 10 can promote to 1st dan. However, they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16 which I think matches KKW requirements, though I'd have to check for sure. I'm somewhat inclined to keep the same eligibility structure and not have any 2nd or 3rd poom at all, so we don't run into the need for conversions as they grow older.


I'm not 100% sure, but I think that when a pum converts, they convert at age 15 to whatever pum they were from first to third (I know that there is a fourth pum, but I think that the student has to be older than fifteen to earn it).  

Either way, there's always going to be some element of child promotions that is less than ideal.  Ten year old first dans bugs the tar out of some people, but those same people don't like the conversion at age fifteen either.  

The way that I look at it is that if a kid gets his first pum at ten, that means that he or she has been at it since like seven or eight.  If they stick around long enough for pum conversion to matter, then you're looking at seven or eight years of commitment from a kid.  Kids commiting to anything that long are usually serious and I think that the conversion is more than appropriate.  

If you issue a single black belt with only the school name and student's name, then you have pum belts and black belts and the whole issue of who's what rank at what age is nullified.  What really matters is that the student is continuing to train.  And hey, by the time they're eighteen, their black belt will start to get frayed on the edges and have that, 'I've been doing this for years' look about it that many consider badge of honor.  Chances are, he or she is an awesome taekwondoin by that point as well.  Everyone wins.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I did read in Article 18 of the KKW regulations that it's not a skip dan if it's a dan assimilation (i.e. changing from a dojang dan under a reputable master/association to Kukkiwon) but I don't know if the same "1 rank jump" applies there.



That's my understanding.  I'm preparing for a 3rd dan test, having never held any KKW rank before.


----------



## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> You know, Andy, that's a great idea.  I should clarify however that while I support the idea of a poom belt, I'm not fully convinced that I like the KKW poom program in its entirely including how they later convert to full dans.



I don't know if individuals can apply to the Kukkiwon for poom-dan conversion or if it has to be 4th Dan or above.  If it does have to be, then you can still have an additional test for it (not sure I agree with doing that as it's a paperwork only thing at KKW, but I'm not judging if you want to).



dancingalone said:


> The way the school works now, kids as young as 10 can promote to 1st dan.  However, they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16 which I think matches KKW requirements, though I'd have to check for sure.



16 years old is the minimum for KKW 2nd Dan, but they could be KKW 3rd Dan at any age.



dancingalone said:


> I'm somewhat inclined to keep the same eligibility structure and not have any 2nd or 3rd poom at all, so we don't run into the need for conversions as they grow older.



Personally, I wouldn't worry about the conversion aspect.  And I potentially wouldn't set it in stone now, wait until the situation comes up and then decide.  If you have a student worthy of higher rank than 1st and they're younger than 16 maybe you'll change your mind.  The reason is that once you publicise the decision you're stuck with it (as you're finding with your under-16 black belts).


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Right now kids and adults have the same curriculum. I could see this changing sooner or later, so I do support the poom belt as a means of distinguishing between the two groups.


Personally, I think that that is good.  

But under the current program, are adults getting a KKW dan cert?  And how are they handling kids who stick around long enough to transition from child to adult, but are higher than first dan?


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> But under the current program, are adults getting a KKW dan cert?  And how are they handling kids who stick around long enough to transition from child to adult, but are higher than first dan?



There is no problem currently with moving kids to the adults class when they get big enough because the curriculum is still the same for adults and children.  Additionally, the 16 minimum age for 2nd dan keeps it nicely aligned already with KKW minimum ages.  I'm more thinking about the potential pitfalls for later when I will introduce changes in the curriculum - I don't want to run into situations where pooms convert to full dans without having learned the same material my adult students did.

Right now everyone gets the same house certificate.  Adults wanting the additional KKW certificate can obtain it.  I believe it's about half-and-half who do.  For the record, I would have no personal issues if all did.  

My antipathy towards the KKW poom cert has to do with it's ability to convert later on to a full dan, although certainly I recognize Daniel's excellent arguments above about it being more about training.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What type of sword is used and what is the nature of the kata?  Is it drawing and cutting or lenthier patterns performed on one's own or is it two person kata (kumitachi)?



Longer patterns, solo. It's essentially just demonstration stuff that we use for special events, public gradings, etc., no real thought behind it. I guess the sword is most like a katana but it's essentially just whatever instructors happen to have around. I don't know it so I don't teach it. 

Like this.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2012)

We often have children coming to us with TKD belts, I don't know how TKDists feel about this but we let them keep their belts and grade onwards from that point with us after they've adapted to TSD and Judo, which is easy enough for the children, they spend a lot of their time doing this with schools, clubs etc anyway. After they've left us we often hear they've had to go back to white belt at their new clubs of whichever style is available, which while I understand it seems a shame. Whatever belt or background they've come from before they get to us we try to keep something they can recognise, likewise we tend to teach in Japanese, Korean and English, as in counting, and instructions etc.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I'm more thinking about the potential pitfalls for later when I will introduce changes in the curriculum - I don't want to run into situations where pooms convert to full dans without having learned the same material my adult students did.
> .....
> 
> My antipathy towards the KKW poom cert has to do with it's ability to convert later on to a full dan, although certainly I recognize Daniel's excellent arguments above about it being more about training.


Conversion isn't automatic; there is paperwork to be filed by the instructor.  Also, no pum should be given if the school's requirements have not yet been met.  The awarding of pums should be no different in that regard than the awarding of dan grades.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Longer patterns, solo. It's essentially just demonstration stuff that we use for special events, public gradings, etc., no real thought behind it. I guess the sword is most like a katana but it's essentially just whatever instructors happen to have around. I don't know it so I don't teach it.
> 
> Like this.


Looks like a katana to me. 

Solo sword forms are pretty cool in my opinion.  

A nice way to teach stance and movement along with varying cuts, and for some that format works much better for practice outside of class than say, do 50 shomen uchi, 50 migi/hidari men uchi, 50 migi/hidari do uchi, and the following suburi 20 times each every day.  Do this patern ten times a day that has all of the material that I want you to practice works very nicely.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

MAist25 said:


> We teach traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do as well as Kukki Taekwondo. Certified through Kukkiwon and the United States Taekwondo Association through the guidance of GM Richard Chun




What do you mean when you say "traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do"?


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> It is probably too short.  I'm used to running 1.5-2 hour classes in my home karate dojo, and we definitely had a much longer warm up.




Did you find any issues with children being able to maintain their concentration for the full 1.5-2 hour class?


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## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> Did you find any issues with children being able to maintain their concentration for the full 1.5-2 hour class?



I do not know.  I have never taken a child as a student at my home dojo.  It's not exactly kid friendly with the expected things like hojo undo and emphasis on esoteric Okinawan technique.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You could announce that you will be shifting from in house certs to KKW pum certs and that in order to conform to KKW regulations, you will be issuing the pum belts with the official certificate.  Make the announcement well in advance of the next dan testing.



Pum is more accurately spelled "poom". That is how it is spelled on the kukkiwon certificates. Closer to the phonetic pronunciation as well. It is not so much of a problem with pum, but many mispronounce guep, especially when it is spelled "gup". Guep does not rhyme with cup, but it does sort of rhyme with coop, like a chicken coop. Many call color belt students "guppies", which is based on the incorrect pronouciation of guep, because of the gup spelling.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> You know, Andy, that's a great idea.  I should clarify however that while I support the idea of a poom belt, I'm not fully convinced that I like the KKW poom program in its entirely including how they later convert to full dans.



Personally, I would eliminate the poom rank at the Kukkiwon and award dan rank to everyone, regardless of age. There is no effective distinction between a poom rank and a dan rank, especially since a poom rank can be converted to a dan rank once the student reaches a certain age. Because of that, any distinction between a poom rank and a dan rank is meaningless. 




dancingalone said:


> The way the school works now, kids as young as 10 can promote to 1st dan.  However, they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16 which I think matches KKW requirements, though I'd have to check for sure.  I'm somewhat inclined to keep the same eligibility structure and not have any 2nd or 3rd poom at all, so we don't run into the need for conversions as they grow older.



How long does it take an average student who doesn't miss a test to get to 1st dan? Limiting "black belt" ranks to an arbitrary age also limits potential students from joining. This may not be a concern when you have a non-commercial dojang, but may be a concern for a commercial one. The trend is for younger and younger age students to start training, so if you limit your age of student or age of 1st dan, then you may lose a whole group of students from joining. And, if you have competitors who do accept younger students and promote students to black belt irregardless of age, then you may be cutting off the majority of your potential students. Perhaps this is one reason why you were sold the school in the first place, because self imposed limitations on potential students made the dojang unprofitable. 

Something to consider. I can see where these things may cause you some internal conflicts, where philosophical belief is in direct contrast to practical reality. You want to institute all these changes and do things your way, but then when you are in the driver's seat, you slowly understand or at least can appreciate why your instructor did certain things. These are the lessons to be learned by new school owners, as outlined in the poomsae pyongwon, usually learned at 4th Dan.  When you work out all these things for yourself, that's when you will be ready for 5th Dan promotion. At least to me.


----------



## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Right now kids and adults have the same curriculum.  I could see this changing sooner or later, so I do support the poom belt as a means of distinguishing between the two groups.



What is the current ratio between children and adult students in your dojang, "adult" meaning 13 and older?


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Right now everyone gets the same house certificate.  Adults wanting the additional KKW certificate can obtain it.  I believe it's about half-and-half who do.  For the record, I would have no personal issues if all did.



Why not do it the other way around, give everyone a kukkiwon certificate and then a house certificate if the student wishes it? That is what they do in Korea, give everyone a kukkiwon certificate, and then a house or "kwan" certificate if they want it. To me that makes more sense, especially since so many instructors push the idea of a house certificate being more "meaningful" and more "valuable", since it is signed by the instructor. That way, you give the less desirable and less meaningful kukkiwon certificate as the default certification, and then they can pay extra if they want the more meaningful house one.


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## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

Adults = 16+

The ratio is around 3:1 kids to adults, which I actually think is quite good with little need for modifying marketing or policies in to try to 'equalize' the population base.



> Why not do it the other way around, give everyone a kukkiwon certificate  and then a house certificate if the student wishes it? That is what  they do in Korea, given everyone a kukkiwon certificate, and then a  house or "kwan" certificate if they want it.



It's more record-keeping that way.  I'd rather make sure the students pass our requirements and be eligible for both certs than keep tract of 'John has the KKW reqs but not our house ones'.

It's also a small cost issue.  The students can save a few bucks by passing up the Korean cert, although certainly they're told it may be a good thing to have later on if they want to continue in TKD and possibly grow a career/lifelong pursuit of it.


----------



## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> That's my understanding.  I'm preparing for a 3rd dan test, having never held any KKW rank before.



If I were you, I would start at kukkiwon 1st dan and just get promoted at the minimum time in grades. You only get one skip dan in your life, and I wouldn't waste it on the low dan ranks. Plus it's better to have all your kukkiwon dan certificates without any huge holes or gaps.


----------



## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> It's more record-keeping that way.  I'd rather make sure the students  pass our requirements and be eligible for both certs than keep tract of  'John has the KKW reqs but not our house ones'.



I don't know about this two sets of curriculum for the same rank within the same school idea. Sounds unworkable to me. If you want to add curriculum, you could do it at the higher dan ranks, where the new material is light, instead of cramming all that stuff in at 1st dan, which is what most instructors try to do. 




dancingalone said:


> It's also a small cost issue.  The students can save a few bucks by passing up the Korean cert, although certainly they're told it may be a good thing to have later on if they want to continue in TKD and possibly grow a career/lifelong pursuit of it.



You could absorb the cost and pay for the kukkiwon certification fee yourself, if you don't want to pass the cost on to them. Charging $250 for a 1st dan, there is plenty of room for that, even if you wish to bring in kodanja to sit on your examination board.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Adults = 16+



Most instructors I know make the children/adult cut off at 13, because it is at that age where the height differential becomes too great if you keep students older than that in with the elementary age students.


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## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> You could absorb the cost and pay for the kukkiwon certification fee yourself, if you don't want to pass the cost on to them. Charging $250 for a 1st dan, there is plenty of room for that, even if you wish to bring in kodanja to sit on your examination board.



That might well be the case.  I'm trying to apply business school forecasting techniques to a martial arts school and this has been an interesting exercise in of itself.  I'll know for sure after 1 or 2 BB exams.  Right now they're only offered 2x a year which makes them special and also somewhat large and cumbersome to run since colored belt tests are offered at the same time.  I don't want to be niggardly with our kodanja guests either.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Conversion isn't automatic; there is paperwork to be filed by the instructor.




I think it is automatic. You might have to pay a $10 fee to the kukkiwon which also covers cost of the certificate and postage (which is way higher than $10 for those outside of Korea; kukkiwon uses dhl) but that is about it. I had a parent who did it on his own and got the conversion for his son. The instructor doesn't have to do it or approve it either.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Right now they're only offered 2x a year which makes them special and also somewhat large and cumbersome to run since colored belt tests are offered at the same time.



You might wish to make poom/dan tests separate from guep level tests. I think that is how most do it, especially if your black belt tests are much longer and more involved than color belt tests. Sounds like you are having fun with all of this though.  

What part of texas do you live in, near dallas?


----------



## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I don't want to be niggardly with our kodanja guests either.



Thank you for that!  I've learnt a new English word!  It's not often that happens these days...


----------



## MAist25 (Feb 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> What do you mean when you say "traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do"?



Well Grandmaster Chun originally taught Tang Soo Do. His first school was called the Richard Chun Karate Center. Once the unification of the art came around he started using the name Taekwondo like many other Koreans who brought their arts from Korea. I actually emailed him specifically about this issue of calling what we learn Taekwondo or Tang Soo Do and what he said was that we are practitioners of both. 

The color belt forms I learned are the Kicho's, Palgwe's, and Pyung Ahn's. The black belt forms I know are Bassai Dai, Naihanchi Chodan, Koryo So, Koryo Dai, Chinte, and Keumgang. He still teaches all of the Tang Soo Do forms and gives us the option to study the Tang Soo Do forms after we understand the basics of Taekwondo. His organization, the USTA is unique because many of his students went out and opened up Taekwondo schools and many others went out and opened up Tang Soo Do schools. But what he told me is that we are practitioners of both Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo under the Moo Duk Kwan lineage.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> How long does it take an average student who doesn't miss a test to get to 1st dan?



I plotted some graphs on that the other night actually.  The median time right at 2 years 10 months for adults and it is at 2 years 2 months for children.  The difference is interesting considering the curriculum has been up to this point identical.  That shall change however for the adults and I'll probably look into increasing the gestation time somehow.


puunui said:


> Limiting "black belt" ranks to an arbitrary age also limits potential  students from joining. This may not be a concern when you have a non-commercial dojang, but may be a concern for a commercial one. The trend is for younger and younger age students to start training, so if you limit your age of student or age of 1st dan, then you may lose a whole group of students from joining. And, if you have competitors who do accept younger students and promote students to black belt irregardless of age, then you may be cutting off the majority of your potential students. Perhaps this is one reason why you were sold the school in the first place, because self imposed limitations on potential students made the dojang unprofitable.
> 
> Something to consider. I can see where these things may cause you some internal conflicts, where philosophical belief is in direct contrast to practical reality. You want to institute all these changes and do things your way, but then when you are in the driver's seat, you slowly understand or at least can appreciate why your instructor did certain things. These are the lessons to be learned by new school owners, as outlined in the poomsae pyongwon, usually learned at 4th Dan.  When you work out all these things for yourself, that's when you will be ready for 5th Dan promotion. At least to me.



There is indeed a world of difference between running a commercial school and one where income was not a factor for me at all.  I will need to find balance somehow between the two approaches.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Thank you for that!  I've learnt a new English word!  It's not often that happens these days...



A large part of taekwondo philosophy, especially at the higher levels, is about generosity. The english translation of the Kang Duk Won name means "House of Teaching Generosity". The Kang Duk Won was one of the nine kwan that unified under the Kukkiwon banner. Why do you think mastercole and I share information so generously? Answer: Because it was shared so generously with us, without restriction, and we would like to keep the tradition going, at least for one more generation.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> A large part of taekwondo philosophy, especially at the higher levels, is about generosity. The english translation of the Kang Duk Won name means "House of Teaching Generosity". The Kang Duk Won was one of the nine kwan that unified under the Kukkiwon banner. Why do you think mastercole and I share information so generously? Answer: Because it was shared so generously with us, without restriction, and we would like to keep the tradition going, at least for one more generation.


My former GM had said that his line is Kang Duk Won.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My former GM had said that his line is Kang Duk Won.



Was he a generous person?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> Was he a generous person?


Yes.


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## dancingalone (Feb 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> You might wish to make poom/dan tests separate from guep level tests. I think that is how most do it, especially if your black belt tests are much longer and more involved than color belt tests. Sounds like you are having fun with all of this though.



Yes, I am having a blast.



puunui said:


> What part of texas do you live in, near dallas?



Austin or the burbs anyway in Central Texas.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Austin or the burbs anyway in Central Texas.



Not far from Dallas, where Nationals/JOs will be held this year. You might wish to stop by, check it out and see what the fuss is all about.


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## mastercole (Feb 29, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Everyone seems to focus on the organizations, but I am more curious as to what the differences are between individual schools. Two people in the same organization may have radically different approaches to how and what they teach.
> 
> So with that in mind,
> 
> ...


Kukkiwon. Family classes and separate invitation only intense training for young adults.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> What is your curriculum like?



Class curriculum is roughly grouped as: Athletic development / Poomsae / Kwonbop / Kyorugi / Basic skills /.  Also occasional introduction to mom-makki (hoshinsul) & some weapons.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?



No




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?



I charge a certification fee. 9th geup to 3rd geup do not take a promotion exam. 2nd and 1st geup must take an exam that is practice for the Dan or Poom promotion exam.  




Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?



If they continue training after their promotion, we credit the entire promotion fee back toward tuition, If they stop, we keep the fee and go out for sushi.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?



No




Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?



No




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?



It's not a program, I just introduce students to certain Okinawan weapons and Shinai, I tell them it is just introductory.  From Isshin Ryu




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?



Mostly just introductory, except for the body movement/avoidance part which is a main feature of training




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?



A few evasive and counter skills from boxing. Some Kwonbop skills that are unique to old Jidokwan.  Discussion of street smarts.

Some students are invited to do a separate study of Taekkyon, not learning from me, but from the Korean Taekkyon master that lives here.  There is no cost for this.


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## Tswolfman (Feb 29, 2012)

what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like? Kukki Taekwondo  we do a 10 minute warm up 10 min basic mental workout 15 main focus physical workout, 15 min Mental workout and finish with a 10 minute cool down / Stretch
What is your curriculum like? we have poomse ( forms), one steps sparring, Self defense skills, Kicks , Basics and Kicking Drills
Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs? Yes and no. Yes we have clubs however my studio teaches more arts then just taekwondo ( each is a separate system and belt ranking ) to do more than one art you have to join either out basic or SWAt team plans.
Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress? yes we charge for tests the only cost that is higher is for the Black belt levels all colored belts are the same.
If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference? We do not
Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt? No, 1st poom if over 13 maybe, 16 +  maybe if student shows proper maturity
If you are KKW, do you put black belts on poom students? No
Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of? Yes, we have 2 they are each seperate arts, Presas Arnis ( Datu Tim Hartman's version of Modern Arnis) and Koryo Gumdo ( Korean Sword )
Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from? yes, Hapkido, Modern Arnis, Jeet Kun Do, Shin ji Tai Jujitsu, and various other misc. Arts
Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?Yes see above in addition to some aspects of Shotokan Karate, Shurite Kempo and a few others however i explain where the elements come from why we use them and how they inhance (IMO) our taekwondo.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 5, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you are an instructor:
> 
> what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?
> What is your curriculum like?
> ...



We no longer use the label of TKD, but in regards to KSD;


> what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?


Mu Shin Kwan Kong Soo Do.  Our classes look very similar to what you would find in an advanced L.E. or military special ops class.  No uniforms and mostly 'high speed/low drag' teaching/traning methodology.


> What is your curriculum like?


We use a blending of traditional hard core martial arts training and the most advanced self-defense/combatives training that I am currently familar with.


> Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?


No.  As noted in other threads, we use the Dan/Kyu system because of familiarity but rarely actually wear belts.


> Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?


Never charged for a belt test or certification.  Don't believe in it.


> Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?


No.


> Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?


Yes.  Baton, edged weapons and firearms.  They came from multiple instructor certifications I've gained over the years as well as my actual use and experience in each.


> Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?


Solely.  Training in martial arts and filtered through over three decades of actual use and experience.


> Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?


Yes.  Multiple arts and combatives systems.


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## WMKS Shogun (Mar 8, 2012)

Q what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like? 
 Chang Hon TKD (ITF Forms, no sine wave), classes are divided by age and as much as possible, by rank. Classes range from 1 hour to an hour and a half. 

Q What is your curriculum like?
A 
Form: 1 at each of the 9 colored belt levels, including a memorized interpretation of the forms meaning.
Basics: stances, blocks, strikes, kicks - given in Korean and English
Combinations: 5 at each belt level, to be memorized so that multiple belt levels can practice at the same time without an instructor having to call out each belt level's combination
Situational Self Defense: defense against grabs, holds, throws, as well as how to perform grabs, hold, throw, locks, breakfalls, etc.
Terms: Usually Korean commands or terms of martial historical significance
Physical fitness requirement: push-ups, crunches, rounds of sparring, running requirement
Additional information: required information that does not fit in the terms section
Q Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs? 
A No, not at this time. 

Q Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress? 
A Yes, we charge, and yes the fee increases from $35 for colored belt levels to $50 at brown belt and above, and $125 per Dan Grade, which the fee includes an embroidered belt and a certificate, framed. 

Q If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?
A N/A

Q Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt? 
A Has not happened yet, but yes, we would issue a Junior Black Belt, if it was earned. 

Q If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students? 
A N/A

Q Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of? 
A We do each a few staff forms (that I learned from my old karate instructor, before I switched to TKD) as well as sword forms of Haedong Gumdo. 

Q Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from? 
A Yes, and typically, it is taken from application of the forms, with added elements of Jujutsu, Judo, Hapkido, Aikido, and Western High School/College Wrestling

Q Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements? 
A See Above with the self defense, as well as the Haedong Gumdo, and some elements of Japanese Karate (particularly, some of the chambers before blocks and strikes).


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## irgordon (Jun 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> Personally, I would eliminate the poom rank at the Kukkiwon and award dan rank to everyone, regardless of age. There is no effective distinction between a poom rank and a dan rank, especially since a poom rank can be converted to a dan rank once the student reaches a certain age. Because of that, any distinction between a poom rank and a dan rank is meaningless.
> 
> How long does it take an average student who doesn't miss a test to get to 1st dan? Limiting "black belt" ranks to an arbitrary age also limits potential students from joining. This may not be a concern when you have a non-commercial dojang, but may be a concern for a commercial one. The trend is for younger and younger age students to start training, so if you limit your age of student or age of 1st dan, then you may lose a whole group of students from joining. And, if you have competitors who do accept younger students and promote students to black belt irregardless of age, then you may be cutting off the majority of your potential students. Perhaps this is one reason why you were sold the school in the first place, because self imposed limitations on potential students made the dojang unprofitable.
> 
> Something to consider. I can see where these things may cause you some internal conflicts, where philosophical belief is in direct contrast to practical reality. You want to institute all these changes and do things your way, but then when you are in the driver's seat, you slowly understand or at least can appreciate why your instructor did certain things. These are the lessons to be learned by new school owners, as outlined in the poomsae pyongwon, usually learned at 4th Dan.  When you work out all these things for yourself, that's when you will be ready for 5th Dan promotion. At least to me.



The problem is Kids are not adults, even the law doesn't hold them to the same standard. Of course if you are under 15, you are still a child and should be treated as such. SO I do not have a problem with the current Poom/Dan system. While yes, if those student continue they can get 2nd Poom and 3rd Poom, most do usually get 2nd Dan after their 1st Poom. We have only had 2 students who were 1st Poom and 1 who was 2nd Poom but, we are a more traditional school when it comes to training. We don't believe in promoting students every other year or 2 years. Are they reflecting and understanding their rank? What curriculum are they learning that can be learned in 12 months??

The problem is you have 6, 9, 12 year olds running around as 3rd Dan, 4th Dan and its ridiculous, it waters down the meaning of achieving Black Belt. It shouldn't just be handed out like candy or a sticker for continuing with the martial arts.

Black belt is a serious rank and should be treated as such. Anyone who trained hard for it know what I mean. I can't respect a 10 year old kid who is 2nd Dan, when did he start training? In the womb?? I took over 7 years to get my 1st Dan, I know what it means to obtain it and what it means to be it. So, no...kids, children are not the same and should not be treated as such.

I strenuously object to any school, dojang, dojo, association that promotes kids (under 16) to full Dan, especially if it was earned in under 2-3 years.  Think about it, most systems have 9 Gups for under belts, with a minimum of 6 months at each rank, which I think is very generous for training and learning new curriculum...it would be 3.5 years til you could be ELIGIBLE to test for 1st Dan. So, yeah I can't get behind little kids being promoted to full Dan black belt if they don't put the time in. Just like in school their is Kindergarten, then Elementary, then Junior HS, then HS...finally they get to go to college, then their is Graduate School and so forth....there are no shortcuts to success...only hard work and dedication...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 14, 2012)

irgordon said:


> The problem is Kids are not adults, even the law doesn't hold them to the same standard. Of course if you are under 15, you are still a child and should be treated as such. SO I do not have a problem with the current Poom/Dan system. While yes, if those student continue they can get 2nd Poom and 3rd Poom, *most do usually get 2nd Dan after their 1st Poom*.


Then they must be at least fifteen per article eight. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp#

Just to be clear, I have no problem with the current system either, but if they eliminated the pum grades *and* maintained the age minimums for second dan and higher, I'd be okay with that as well.



irgordon said:


> We have only had 2 students who were 1st Poom and 1 who was 2nd Poom but, we are a more traditional school when it comes to training. We don't believe in promoting students every other year or 2 years. Are they reflecting and understanding their rank? What curriculum are they learning that can be learned in 12 months??


Be careful about how traditional you claim to be.  Average time to first dan in Korea is and has been one year.  Technically, your time in grade requirements are not traditional.  I'm not criticizing your school for that, but don't call it traditional when its not.



irgordon said:


> The problem is you have 6, 9, 12 year olds running around as 3rd Dan, 4th Dan and its ridiculous, it waters down the meaning of achieving Black Belt.


Read the Kukkiwon requirements for third and fourth dan.  You will find that they have age minimums of 18 and 21 respectively.  



irgordon said:


> It shouldn't just be handed out like candy or a sticker for continuing with the martial arts.


I agree, but handing out black belts like candy is unrelated to the minimum age allowed to grade.  I don't like belt factories, but you can have a belt factory with students of all ages.  Its actually easier with adults; they don't need their parents to pay for their tests, and once you reach the grades you mention above, you're dealing with longer term students who are happy training at your facility.



irgordon said:


> Black belt is a serious rank and should be treated as such. Anyone who trained hard for it know what I mean.


First dan in the KKW is a beginning dan, signifying only that you have learned the basics.  All ranks are 'serious' and all gradings should be treated as such.  First dan is only 'super serious' if you are treating it as an end of journey event or if your ego is wrapped up in the achieving of first dan.    



irgordon said:


> I can't respect a 10 year old kid who is 2nd Dan, when did he start training? In the womb?? I took over 7 years to get my 1st Dan, I know what it means to obtain it and what it means to be it. So, no...kids, children are not the same and should not be treated as such.


In KKW taekwondo, to go from first to second dan the student must be at least fifteen years of age.  Simply eliminating the pum grade would mean children could earn a first dan but would be unable to promote to second or higher until the age of fifteen.  



irgordon said:


> I strenuously object to any school, dojang, dojo, association that promotes kids (under 16) to full Dan, especially if it was earned in under 2-3 years.  Think about it, most systems have 9 Gups for under belts, with a minimum of 6 months at each rank, which I think is very generous for training and learning new curriculum...it would be 3.5 years til you could be ELIGIBLE to test for 1st Dan. So, yeah I can't get behind little kids being promoted to full Dan black belt if they don't put the time in. Just like in school their is Kindergarten, then Elementary, then Junior HS, then HS...finally they get to go to college, then their is Graduate School and so forth....there are no shortcuts to success...only hard work and dedication...


As I said, the average in Korea is one year.  More than a few people who live or have lived in Korea have related that to me over the years.  In KKW TKD, first dan is considered a beginning rank.  Nothing more.

I think that the major issue in many schools is not the age of the candidates but the integrity of the testing standards.  I've seen ten year old pum holders display the crispness and correctness of form that one would expect in a first dan and I have seen ten year old pum holders who look like they're having a fit of epilepsy that is coincidentally in a palgwe formation.  And I have seen a happy medium.  Aside from the obvious differences in power, the adult first dan holders that I have seen run the very same gamut.

The difference isn't the age of the candidate but the integrity of the testing standards.


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## irgordon (Jun 14, 2012)

I can agree with that, all I am saying is that we need good standards and it can't look like you have no idea what you are doing but call yourself a black belt. You mention Koreans but, they do things much differently in Korea and are much stricter in their approach to teaching, as opposed to the many American schools way of every 2-3 months passing on a mediocre performance as acceptable.

Granted, if you are just doing this for a business and not serious about having good martial art students, by all means, they can do what they want.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 14, 2012)

irgordon said:


> You mention Koreans but, they do things much differently in Korea and are much stricter in their approach to teaching, as opposed to the many American schools way of every 2-3 months passing on a mediocre performance as acceptable.



With respect, this is not necessarily true.  In Korea, a child (and presumably an adult) can earn a BB in a year, perhaps less.  Judging from videos I've seen, as well as comments from first-hand accounts it would appear that, at least for some schools, quantity overrules quality.


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## Markku P (Jun 14, 2012)

In my experience is that in Korea is much easier to get a black belt ( in general )

/Markku P.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 14, 2012)

It took me around 2 years to get my 1st dan in the US. In Korea, it can be done in a year or a little less. A student can test for the next rank about every 2 months. It takes 6 tests to get a black belt with a white, yellow, green, blue, brown, red, black belt  color structure. A student could start at white belt 3 or 4 weeks prior to the next testing day and then reach black belt in about 11 months. 

People often hear things about how things are much more serious in Korea, or something to that effect. The truth is that it varies from school to school and student to student. Some students train 5 days per week, while some train 2-3 times per week like most probably do in the USA. The majority of students train recreationally, while others train like crazy.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 14, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> With respect, this is not necessarily true.  In Korea, a child (and presumably an adult) can earn a BB in a year, perhaps less.  Judging from videos I've seen, as well as comments from first-hand accounts it would appear that, at least for some schools, quantity overrules quality.


Yes, children and adults can do this. And I would say that the average quality is probably about the same as anywhere else. I would compare taekwondo in Korea to something like baseball or soccer in America. It's an athletic activity that nearly everybody participates in. The majority of participants are of average ability. That's why it's called average. Where Korea has the edge is that they have a much deeper pool of talented athletes in taekwondo than other countries.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 14, 2012)

irgordon said:


> I can agree with that, all I am saying is that we need good standards and it can't look like you have no idea what you are doing but call yourself a black belt.


Which I am on board with, but that is separate from the age issue.



irgordon said:


> You mention Koreans but, they do things much differently in Korea and are much stricter in their approach to teaching, as opposed to the many American schools way of every 2-3 months passing on a mediocre performance as acceptable.


I don't know how it is done in Korea, never having trained there, but with only a year between white and black belt, you're probably testing *at least* every couple of months, if not more.



irgordon said:


> Granted, if you are just doing this for a business and not serious about having good martial art students, by all means, they can do what they want.


Business and good students are not mutually exclusive.  A school that is successful on the business end simply means that the owner is making wise business decisions and nothing more.

Some schools that are lousy on the business end are also lousy on the instructional end.  I can think of at least two in my area.  

Also, sometimes instructors burn out.  The school may have been a top flight school but after fifteen to twenty years, the grandmaster is burnt out and isn't consistently teaching.  Standards slide, and if the trend isn't reversed, then the school eventually suffers financially.


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