# how long to first dan in your jujutsu?



## spatulahunter (Sep 26, 2004)

How long does it take to reach first dan (black belt) in your jujutsu?
I take daito ryu where it takes approx 1 year give or take to learn ikkajo (first dan equivelent) and hakko ryu where shodan can be learned in even less time. Our classes dont advertise this 1 year black belt to draw students, it simply means that youve covered the basics and you are ready to learn to start applying them. Do you guys believe that this makes a school look bad when a black belt is reached so quickly? Do other schools of jujutsu move through the ranks in this manner?
To be completely honest i could care less what my belt is ( i might almost rather be a lower rank for years simply cause people feel they should challenge/test you and and your skills because they think a black belt is gonna be a MA god)


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## MisterMike (Sep 26, 2004)

A year to black belt is relatively quick compared to most styles I've seen. But everyone has their reasons. If you believe in them, I wouldn't wory about it. My dojo doesn't put a time on it but generally it is 4-5 years. One reason being, is that at Shodan, you are allowed to teach.


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## spatulahunter (Sep 26, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> A year to black belt is relatively quick compared to most styles I've seen. But everyone has their reasons. If you believe in them, I wouldn't wory about it. My dojo doesn't put a time on it but generally it is 4-5 years. One reason being, is that at Shodan, you are allowed to teach.



Is it a jujutsu or in kenpo that you are referring to? i know that most martial arts  take alot longer but i was really wondering if it is common for most jujutsus to go through the ranks quicker


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## bignick (Sep 26, 2004)

my jujutsu probably averages the 4-5 years for 1st dan...


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## MisterMike (Sep 26, 2004)

spatulahunter said:
			
		

> Is it a jujutsu or in kenpo that you are referring to? i know that most martial arts  take alot longer but i was really wondering if it is common for most jujutsus to go through the ranks quicker



I was referring to our aiki-jujutsu. Obviously a little different but I've talk with stylists from many backgrounds (non-jujutsu as well) and they are all in the 4-5 year bracket in most cases.

I didn't know Hakko Ryu was so quick to Shodan. Interesting.


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## Saitama Steve (Sep 26, 2004)

Depends on how much time and effort you put in to it. For some, it takes three years, for others it takes less. You get out what you put in.


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## bignick (Sep 26, 2004)

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> Depends on how much time and effort you put in to it. For some, it takes three years, for others it takes less. You get out what you put in.


very true...it all depends on how your system looks at the black belt...i'd say as long as you're school is still teaching good material and isn't obviously trying to rush students through the rank...i don't see a problem with achieving black belt in a short amount of time...like you said...they explain it as just learning the basics...an intermediat position almost...i have no problems with that....it's if they were promoting to black within a year and telling students they had mastered the techniques...that's where i would find fault


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## Saitama Steve (Sep 26, 2004)

Yes, indeed and it should also be noted that a black belt isn't anything special. In budo, it's a stepping stone. It signifies that you've gotten to a certain level and that's it.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Sep 27, 2004)

I've heard of some BJJ schools which require 10 years for shodan.
You could also send away on eBay and get one right away.
Just train, and don't worry about the rank.  You'll be fine.


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## ace (Sep 28, 2004)

How dose Your School go about testing your
skills? 
1 Year to Black Belt Sounds offly short.
When U cosider That Everyone Learns in a Different
amount of Time.

How Often do U Spar?

How Long are Test's for Rank?

How Many Times a Week Dose a Student 
Attend Class?


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## Shogun (Sep 28, 2004)

At Tsubaki Grand shrine, Tsubaki Aiki averages 7-11 years to Shodan. I also do freestyle Jujutsu, mostly thru HSC and it averages 1 year. but in freestyle, it is recommended that you regularly attend an MA school, and have previous experience before starting. this way, you can actually learn from the videos.
I have been doing Tsubaki Aiki for 2 years, and havent yet tested for 5th kyu, the first rank. in this way, the Gokyu's are recognized as kinda a teacher, when in the dojo. This does not mean they are instructors, though.
I have a Shodan in Velez Jujutsu, and i've been practicing for a year.


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## spatulahunter (Sep 29, 2004)

ace said:
			
		

> How dose Your School go about testing your
> skills?
> 1 Year to Black Belt Sounds offly short.
> When U cosider That Everyone Learns in a Different
> ...



well it isnt set that each student will have his shodan rank in 1 year, thats just usually how it turns out, we usually go to class 4 times a week. Black is generally the only rank that we do in hakko ryu, white to black. 
To test our skills we have to  cut down the largest tree in the forest with a herring. hehe jk we do a test of the techniques with our teacehr


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## The Sarg (Sep 29, 2004)

I would say 4 years is a good mark. Some may be able to get it in 3 1/2, others may need 5 or even 5 1/2. It took me 4. I am not saying the school in question is a bad school because I haven't seen them train, but I would at least question any school that issues a black belt in 1 year.


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## spatulahunter (Sep 29, 2004)

The Sarg said:
			
		

> but I would at least question any school that issues a black belt in 1 year.



well our shihan teaches for enjoyment and perpetuation of the art (our payments are made through cleaning and helping around the dojo) so i dont think you have to question what hes in it for


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## brothershaw (Oct 23, 2004)

I had some training in daito ryu and people who were already dan rank in other arts still had to put in years to get a dan rank. Every art I have come across they make you put in a good amount of years ( I tried to expose myself to alot of differnt things) before dan. That said there are some arts where in a shorter period of time 2-3 years you can be more effective with it than others.


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## spatulahunter (Oct 24, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> I had some training in daito ryu and people who were already dan rank in other arts still had to put in years to get a dan rank. Every art I have come across they make you put in a good amount of years ( I tried to expose myself to alot of differnt things) before dan. That said there are some arts where in a shorter period of time 2-3 years you can be more effective with it than others.


which daito ryu did you train in? 
Our dan ranks have nothing to do with how much time you have spent in other arts, it has to do with how long it takes you to learn the required material and be able to teach the required material to others


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## brothershaw (Oct 24, 2004)

My point was not that their rank should have been transferred from one art to the other.
 My point was that these guys who already had dan ranks in other arts and who were picking up many of the basic complexities ( oxymoron) of the ikkajo series (the first 30 techniques if i remember correctly) , and were capable of teaching beginners, still had to go a few years to get thier first dan. In any given style there are always subdivisions and some schools move slower than others.


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## bushi jon (Oct 25, 2004)

In the school I train at it depends on the person someone that is use to ukemi will advance alot further than a new person off the street. I have seen guys make it in under 2 years and others 5 to six years.-


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## brothershaw (Oct 25, 2004)

already knowing ukemi, will definitely help in a judo/jujitsu or aikido school


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## supernix (Jan 10, 2005)

I studied Hakko Ryu Jujutsu for roughly 6 months to a year I am rather shocked to hear about someone making black belt in a year.
When I was training back in 92-94 my sensei was a stickler about fluidity of techniques. From what I remember that was supposedly one of the requirements for blue belt was that your throws and such had to be very controlled and very fluid.


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## The Prof (Jan 10, 2005)

For us with diligent study nd good attendance, it takes anywhere from 30 to 36 months.  Why? It takes that much time to proficiently get through the entire required courses.  

Regards,

The Prof
www.niseido.org


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## spatulahunter (Jan 11, 2005)

supernix said:
			
		

> I studied Hakko Ryu Jujutsu for roughly 6 months to a year I am rather shocked to hear about someone making black belt in a year.
> When I was training back in 92-94 my sensei was a stickler about fluidity of techniques. From what I remember that was supposedly one of the requirements for blue belt was that your throws and such had to be very controlled and very fluid.




that is strange. Even in the books which were written in part by Soke okuyama it says that hakko ryu ranks move much quicker than ranks in other arts. Im sure that different schools move through them at different speeds but if you guys used the same text as us then i would think you wouldnt take a really long time to move through the ranks.


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## judokapont (Jan 15, 2005)

All interesting stuff , do you have to fight and win to obtain these grades?

 i study judo where you complete your "theory" section ie throwing/choking/armlocking and pinning a passive uke and then to a grading where you have to fight and win to go up a grade , i thought this was common to all martial arts!


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## spatulahunter (Jan 18, 2005)

there are quite a few martial arts that do not require students to fight/spar in order to move up in rank. There are probably as many if not more arts that do not require it.


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## Sam (Jan 22, 2005)

I take kenpo and I know you spar later on, and I'm not sure when sparring begins but I know its not there from the first test.

I really don't know anything at all about jujutsu or judo, I was just browsing, hoping to learn something, but this caught my eye:



			
				Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> Yes, indeed and it should also be noted that a black belt isn't anything special. In budo, it's a stepping stone. It signifies that you've gotten to a certain level and that's it.


I agree that martial arts isnt about the belt or the rank, and should not be your focus, but I personally believe that the black belt IS something special - as different as all our styles are, nearly all of them that I know about anyway, have the fact in common that black belt is one of the highest if not highest ranks, and people the world over recognize it as having mastered the basics of your particular art. I think most people are a little more excited about black belt than any other belt.

If, however, you want to be a stickler and say all belts are the same, even if black isnt any 'better' than any other rank, progressing in your art enough to achieve a new rank is always special. Wether its recieving your first yellow belt (or whatever color is first in your system) or 10th dan, achieving it is special, in my opinon anyway.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 23, 2005)

i think that schools in north america have really artificially extended the amount of time it takes to get a shodan rank, unless "black" belt is as high as you go in your particular system. the prof said around 3 years......which i think is plenty of time for someone to learn the basics. after all, shodan is all about knowing the basics......moving up from there is all about understanding them.


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## Sam (Jan 23, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think that schools in north america have really artificially extended the amount of time it takes to get a shodan rank, unless "black" belt is as high as you go in your particular system. the prof said around 3 years......which i think is plenty of time for someone to learn the basics. after all, shodan is all about knowing the basics......moving up from there is all about understanding them.


I was under the impression that reaching first dan was about MASTERING the basics, not just simply learning, or understanding them. I understand a whole lot of spanish but that doesn't mean that I can speak it. I can understand a lot of a martial art but that does not mean that I can necisarily DO it. I'm not saying that the really dedicated can't become black belts in 3 years, but I would be concerned about any school that equated their black belt with our system's black belt, who also promoted the majority of their students to that black belt in a year.

If the system states that the black belt is a way of saying that you have only 'learned' the basics, then that is a different matter entirely.


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## Gray Phoenix (Jan 27, 2005)

In our school it takes anywhere between 5 and 6 years to reach Shodan. However, the BB rank only signifies that you have learned the basic and advanced techniques well enough to teach them. This does not mean you have learned every little nuance in every technique, this could take decades. As a person advances through the various BB levels, more of the system is revealed. As with most arts, there are Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, and Very Advanced techniques and sequences. Having studied those, that doesnt mean that the Professor has revealed everything. There are somethings that are not for all eyes. 

Jujitsu is a combat art. Although, some may use some of the techniques of Jujitsu in a competition, street combat has no rules. Therefore one cannot advance by way of a sporting event which would by its nature not allow the combatants to use/demonstrate all they know.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Dec 20, 2006)

Spatula,

 I study Daito Ryu KodKai and if it takes 1 year for shodan, you are not studing Daito Ryu and are being taken for a ride.
 There is a high degree of sensitivity to make Daito Ryu work and if  you can get to that level in a year, you would be either exceptional, or not doing Daito Ryu.
 There were   a good number of Aikidoka who started making their techniques harder, thinking they were recreating Daito Ryu (and missing the point by a mile), I wonder if your teacher was snowed into this?
 We study 2 arts, Icho Yama Ryu, in which I hold a 2nd Dan, it took 5 years of 3-5 times a week to get to shodan, I am entering my 10 th year studying Icho and Daito Ryu.
 I have not joined the Daito Ryu association formally so I hold no rank, but those who are shodan and higher in Daito Ryu, took between  6 and 10 years to get shodan.
Can  you throw a man, who  grabs you, without grabbing him, consistantly? If not, your not anywhere near Shodan


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## spatulahunter (Dec 22, 2006)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> Spatula,
> 
> I study Daito Ryu KodKai and if it takes 1 year for shodan, you are not studing Daito Ryu and are being taken for a ride.
> There is a high degree of sensitivity to make Daito Ryu work and if  you can get to that level in a year, you would be either exceptional, or not doing Daito Ryu.
> ...



different schools have different levels of skill that are required for different ranks. Apparently shodan means somthing different to your school than mine. I would like to visit your school and get some of the magnificent training you guys have recieved in how to judge others. It takes some amazing insight to know the quality of a school based on the requirements for shodan. Apparently you missed the part in my post where i explained that my school viewed shodan as a stepping stone and it merely meant that you have covered the basics. It would seem that at your school it is something different more of a rank of a highly skilled practitioner. Im sorry if i seem sarcastic but when you insult ones art and insinuate that their teacher is naive then you can really piss people off and i feel that in a forum that prides itself on intelligent friendly disscusion of the martial arts an arrogant elitest view such as your stands out like a sore thumb.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Dec 22, 2006)

Spatulahunter,

 In no where in that thread did I insult anyone, but I do call to question when an instructor awards a shodan in a year to anyone who does not train 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for that year. I have that right as a Jujutsuka, who studies the art your Sensei proffesses to teach.
 We have seen alot of people claiming to do Daito Ryu and not doing Daito Ryu. Kind of like guys who claim to be Special Forces vets, for personal gain, but were nothing of the sort.
 I went to a school that said they taught Wing Chun and they were doing some kind of blend of bad Karate and Tai Chi. ( I watched the class for 10 minutes, kept my opinions to myself, said "Thank you for letting me watch." and went home
 Shodan is a stepping stone in most arts, kind of like a high school deploma, as you get higher it becomes like associates, bachlor, masters,Phd and so on.
 At least in Icho yama ryu, Daito Ryu, TKD, Goju and Kenpo and other arts I have studied at various point in my life, Shodan is looked as a stepping stone, even when it gives you the right to teach, your still considerd someone who has a solid grasp on the basics, but you just really started the journey, that really has no end.
 I have seen the result of people  being snowed, and being hurt bad in violent situations because they thought they had trained in an effective art, but were being giving techniques that just did not get the job done. ( I've also seen people who had good training get hurt who had good training as well. The Dog in the fight vs. the fight in the dog and all.)
 I would reckon that any one who studies Daito Ryu, and their Kai has a clear line back to Takeda Sogaku, and saw your post would raise their eyebrows, and some of us would speak up. Not to insult you, but to say " Hey man , watch out, something is fishy here."
  Whether or not you pay $$$ for this is not a qualifier either way.
 I know this is a polite forum, and I like that, but questioning is a human right. And as long as one does it in a respectfull tone, without the " Your art Sucks!" of Bullshido, I don't think I am breaking any of the forum rules I read before I started posting here.
 The only real thing that is important is if you like what you are doing, then good for you.  Wheter it's Daito Ryu or Golf.

 Merry Christmas and 
 SHUGYO!

  Darth


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