# Not the Best of PR for the Police



## Sukerkin (Oct 16, 2013)

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/...oldier-at-bar-when-she-resisted-his-advances/

This is what happens when someone starts to believe all those movies from decades gone by about the mirror-shades-wearing Officers {oh for a sarcasm font} that could nightstick who they chose because they thought they *were* the law.

If this guy (I left out the many perjoratives I had in mind there) is not fired and subjected to the maximum penalty of the law then there should be a stink created all the way to the top about this - for one thing is certain, if this one got caught on camera then many more did not.


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## Tgace (Oct 16, 2013)

The fact that the responding police officers ARRESTED this cop is not "good PR"?



> Shortly thereafter, Columbia police arrived.  They spoke to witnesses and saw the cell-phone video.  They ordered that Derrick release Ball, then took him into custody and charged him with assault and battery.



Why are this mans actions "bad PR" for an entire profession?

PS- He was fired...


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## Sukerkin (Oct 16, 2013)

I know you fellows have a hard time of it over there, harder than British Bobbies in most cases and that gives a definite sense of being under attack all the time but of course such incidents are bad PR, *TG*.  Bad PR doesn't go away just because someone else finally does the right thing after a bunch of public pressure.  

How you can stop this sort of thing is problematic.  Enforcing the law does not make you master of the law nor master of the general public but years of the 'crawling underbelly' must give all serving offocers a 'fortress' mentality and that can get too much for anyone after a time.


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## Tgace (Oct 16, 2013)

Why are a cops actions half the nation away from me any sort of stain on me or my co-workers? 

I work for a local municipality....a Town. If a town garbageman in Texas commits a crime are the Garbagemen in my Town somehow "stained"? We are responsible for what we do, not for what the officers next door do.

We don't work for the same employers...we are not a national police force. I don't get the whole "police are...." mentality when stuff like this happens. Maybe the police THERE have issues.

PS- "bunch of public pressure"? The cops on scene sorted things out and arrested the off duty. 

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## Sukerkin (Oct 16, 2013)

I think perhaps you are either deliberately not understanding me, have just been attacked so many times so you treat anything negative *as* an attack or I am not making my point very well.  You decide.  I am still correct .


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## Tgace (Oct 16, 2013)

I'm just going off of your thread title Suk....

It may be bad PR for that guys dept.

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## arnisador (Oct 16, 2013)

Tgace said:


> The fact that the responding police officers ARRESTED this cop is not "good PR"?



Sounds like the message is mostly good cops doing their jobs with one bad actor. It is indeed one of those professions where scrutiny is much greater so I understand that any assault under color of law is bad press that can make all citizens worry about their interactions with LEOs, but the resolution sounds spot-on.

There's a complicated ongoing case here in Indianapolis where a cop driving with a blood alcohol level more than twice the limit (.19) killed one motorcyclist and badly injured another. The other cops got to the scene and never treated him as a suspect--the blood was drawn only much later, he and his vehicle weren't searched,  etc. Then they "mishandled" the blood sample twice, severely tainting the evidence. While awaiting trial he was arrested for DUI with a .22 level following a crash. Many LEOs behaved inappropriately (to a greater or lesser extent). It comes on a string of other failures of trust and has really got people down on Indianapolis-area law enforcement. 

The case here is how things should work, though--arrest him even if he's a LEO. It would nice to be able to screen idiots 100% out, but that's just not possible.


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## Tgace (Oct 16, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Sounds like the message is mostly good cops doing their jobs with one bad actor.



I agree with your point...but to nitpick...even here. You are sort of implying that these guys were all the same...cops.

They were from different departments. The boss of the arrested cop was actually supporting him (till he was fired). Who knows how this would have turned out if his own agency showed up.

LE quality is very agency specific when it comes down to it.
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## Sukerkin (Oct 16, 2013)

And bad PR happens all over ... when the Prime Minister has a pop at you then serious biscuits are heading for the fire :lol:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24546370


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## ballen0351 (Oct 16, 2013)

Im not sure how reading that story makes cops look bad?    I didnt read it and think damn cops, I read and and thought what an idiot.


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## Carol (Oct 16, 2013)

I think people and things lumped together because of personal experiences and media-fueled perceptions of what they do.  

At my last job, my company made equipment that was used by several major cable carriers such as Comcast.  But even though most people have no clue what I do (no one makes TV shows about telecom engineers) I couldn't bring that up in  at a party or group of people because there would always be someone that would jump at the chance to derail the conversation in to a whine-fest about Comcast or whomever.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 16, 2013)

*Well first off* it is good that the responding LEO's arrested this guy and that he ended up losing his job.  That is  really positive in my mind.  The negative is that he became a cop in the first place.  Still the private citizens there did the right thing and called on duty LEO's to handle the situation.  It was handled and now it is over.  I am sure this cops department is upset over this bad PR as well as the civil law suit that I am sure this lady will win.  However, this incident should in no way be a black mark all across the profession.  This is where tgace and I are in full agreement.  However, the above incident can certainly be used as a training instrument on what not to do when you are out drinking when you are an LEO.  That is actually one of the best things about our Law Enforcement community.  They actually learn from court cases, wrongful arrests, etc.  That is yet again why we currently have the highest educated Law Enforcement community that we have ever had in the United States.  You can bet this incident will be utilized as a teaching tool some where a long the line.


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## Takai (Oct 16, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Im not sure how reading that story makes cops look bad?    I didnt read it and think damn cops, I read and and thought what an idiot.



Drunk (definitely not think straight) and attempting an arrest. An excellent example of what shouldn't happen. I feel bad for the victim but, it was resolved properly imho.


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## Steve (Oct 16, 2013)

I agree with the general consensue here.  The actions of an individual aren't necessarily an indication of any system, cultural issues within a department.  

I think that, even when the issues are systemic within a department, it doesn't really bleed over outside of that department.  The Bellevue PD here locally went through a series of integrity/behavior issues, notably including some chain of command love triangles and some very poor behavior at a Seahawks game in which they verbally assaulted a female Seattle PD officer, threatened a father at the game and then admitted to driving drunk.  While this reflected poorly on that department, I don't think anyone went on to conclude that ALL departments are suffering from the same cultural dysfunction.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 16, 2013)

Another thing is why are cops off duty held to a different standard when they are not working.  The public is quick to tell me I'm not special and the rules need to apply to me off duty.  Yet as soon as someone acts a fool off duty its in headlines.  
In Steve's example of the football game how many other people that were not cops behave badly and drive home drunk from a football game?  
Local example here.  We hired a guy he was here a week had not even started his first day yet got drunk had an accident and killed someone.  Headline was drunk cop kills pedestrian.   He wasn't a cop he just got hired I've never even seen the guy.

So is it cops are different off duty or they are not. 
 You get pissed if for example if I drive to fast because I'm no different then you. 
 Then turn around and write an article about an officer having an afair off duty or acting stupid in a bar off duty because I'm a cop and need to be held to a  different standard.

It doesn't bother me because I'm kinda boring I don't drink,  I don't speed, or cheat on my wife but I always kinda laugh when people make bid deal out of something that happens 1000s a day by normal people but one cop does it and its national news.


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## Steve (Oct 16, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Another thing is why are cops off duty held to a different standard when they are not working.  The public is quick to tell me I'm not special and the rules need to apply to me off duty.  Yet as soon as someone acts a fool off duty its in headlines.
> In Steve's example of the football game how many other people that were not cops behave badly and drive home drunk from a football game?
> Local example here.  We hired a guy he was here a week had not even started his first day yet got drunk had an accident and killed someone.  Headline was drunk cop kills pedestrian.   He wasn't a cop he just got hired I've never even seen the guy.
> 
> ...



These cops actually used their positions as police to threaten a dad at the ball game.  They were flashing their badges.

But, I do think that, by virtue of their position in or communities, cops are rightfully held to a higher standard.   


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## Tgace (Oct 16, 2013)

I get what Ballen is saying..the "you are no different from the rest of us"/"you have a different standard from the rest of us" dichotomy can be aggravating.




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## ballen0351 (Oct 16, 2013)

Steve said:


> These cops actually used their positions as police to threaten a dad at the ball game.  They were flashing their badges.


Im not saying they get a pass im saying what did they do any different then 1000's of other drunk jerks at  ball game.  Its only news because they have a badge.  Are The 900 other drunk fools that caused problems at football games less responsible then the 2 cops?


> But, I do think that, by virtue of their position in or communities, cops are rightfully held to a higher standard.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Until we get a perk from our position like not getting a speeding ticket then all you hear (not you personally) is how cops are just regular people and should be treated as such.


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## Steve (Oct 16, 2013)

Tgace said:


> I get what Ballen is saying..the "you are no different from the rest of us"/"you have a different standard from the rest of us" dichotomy can be aggravating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get it and understand how it would be frustrating.  But, cops are the good guys.  We trust you and expect you to be honorable and act with integrity.  In the same way we typically expect clergymen to be same.   While we all know that you are people, it is what it is.  Bad guys and good guys.

If it makes you feel any better, statistically, African American communities are much more cynical regarding the police.  


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## Steve (Oct 16, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Im not saying they get a pass im saying what did they do any different then 1000's of other drunk jerks at  ball game.  Its only news because they have a badge.  Are The 900 other drunk fools that caused problems at football games less responsible then the 2 cops?
> 
> Until we get a perk from our position like not getting a speeding ticket then all you hear (not you personally) is how cops are just regular people and should be treated as such.



I think that in that case, their abuse of their position as cops was central to the story.

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## arnisador (Oct 16, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Another thing is why are cops off duty held to a different standard when they are not working.



Everyone deserves off-time, but the people authorized to arrest me _should _exceed the average maturity level of my neighbors.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 16, 2013)

Steve said:


> I think that in that case, their abuse of their position as cops was central to the story.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Maybe Im missing the abuse part?  Calling someone bad names?  Ill go back and re-read the story I admit I only glanced over it.  But All I saw was a drunk say "stay out of Bellevue and call him names.  Shoot that happens to me every day "You better stay out of my neighborhood you &^&%**$##&&^(("  These guys paid ALOT for foul language.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 16, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Everyone deserves off-time, but the people authorized to arrest me _should _exceed the average maturity level of my neighbors.


Dont disagree and this guy in the story will get punished much harsher then if your neighbor did the same thing at a bar with a woman.


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## Tames D (Oct 16, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Why are a cops actions half the nation away from me any sort of stain on me or my co-workers?
> 
> I work for a local municipality....a Town. If a town garbageman in Texas commits a crime are the Garbagemen in my Town somehow "stained"? We are responsible for what we do, not for what the officers next door do.
> 
> ...


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## Tgace (Oct 16, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Tgace said:
> 
> 
> > Why are a cops actions half the nation away from me any sort of stain on me or my co-workers?
> ...


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## Steve (Oct 16, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Maybe Im missing the abuse part?  Calling someone bad names?  Ill go back and re-read the story I admit I only glanced over it.  But All I saw was a drunk say "stay out of Bellevue and call him names.  Shoot that happens to me every day "You better stay out of my neighborhood you &^&%**$##&&^(("  These guys paid ALOT for foul language.


It may not be in the article I linked.  A more detailed account below.  As they left, they said to the dad who reported their belligerent behavior to the ushers:  





> "I hope you're proud of yourself because you got two of Bellevue's finest" kicked out and "better watch your *** if you come to Bellevue."


  Letting him know they were cops immediately before telling him to stay out of Bellevue is crossing a line.  Don't you think?

http://mynorthwest.com/646/2145968/...or-after-getting-drunk-on-Pink-Panty-Droppers

It was pretty bad and got a lot of negative attention in the Seattle area on the news and local talk radio shows.


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## Steve (Oct 16, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Tames D said:
> 
> 
> > You miss the point....im not comparing jobs, im comparing attitudes towards each as a group. Cops are no more a homogeneous group than any other profession. Why is it that ALL "cops get a black eye" whenever one thousands of miles away ****s up? Not all garbagemen would be tarnished if one in Kalamazoo does something ******.
> ...


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## Tgace (Oct 16, 2013)

Most PDs will have some sort of "conduct unbecoming" section in their codes of conduct. 

We have a code of conduct and a code of ethics at our PD.

However violations of this code don't automatically mean termination. Only that some sort of discipline could be administered.

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## ballen0351 (Oct 16, 2013)

Steve said:


> It may not be in the article I linked.  A more detailed account below.  As they left, they said to the dad who reported their belligerent behavior to the ushers:    Letting him know they were cops immediately before telling him to stay out of Bellevue is crossing a line.  Don't you think?
> 
> http://mynorthwest.com/646/2145968/...or-after-getting-drunk-on-Pink-Panty-Droppers
> 
> It was pretty bad and got a lot of negative attention in the Seattle area on the news and local talk radio shows.


So basically people were pissed because a cop was rude?  If it was even the cop that said it.  According to the investigation you posted they blamed a female detective and that was reversed and it was a public works worker that said it.

Seems like a stretch to me.  Do they even know who this dad is?  So how are they going to retaliate against "some guy" they saw in a drunkin stupor at a football game.  Cops were rude is the gist of the story.  They were punished severely esp the guy that was demoted he will loose money for the rest of his life since that will no doubt effect his retirement.


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