# Ground Fighting Training and Law Enforcement - So you wanna be a cop?



## the42cop (Oct 23, 2016)

Ground Fighting is at an all time high with the popularity of BJJ and MMA. Any law enforcement or corrections defensive tactics program absolutely has to incorporate ground survival into its curriculum. It's important however make sure you hammer home the strategic goals of a law enforcement ground fight. Here are a few things to remember when incorporating ground fighting into your program or seeking training outside of the minimal department provided training. 

Ground Fighting Training and Law Enforcement - So you wanna be a cop?

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## oaktree (Oct 23, 2016)

Some good stuff on there and something a lot of people who focus on sport Orient grappling do not understand about Street encounters and ground work is the weapon game. I think another part of it is the know your surroundings. Great article


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## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2016)

Good stuff. I trained with a lot of cops, and they all talk about how important it is to know how to fight on the ground.


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## Juany118 (Oct 23, 2016)

This is a good article and pretty much sums up what I said in a thread a few months ago (weapon retention, environmental hazards, bad guy's friends etc) and how the main purpose for learning the ground game is so you can get out of the ground game (if you are alone) because of the dynamics the article notes.

The only thing it didn't cover (unless I missed it) is that the above is applicable, imo, if environment dictates and/or you are alone.  One of the things I like about the Gracie Combatives (but it's too expensive for my tastes) is that they take this into account.  If alone you are almost always, to some extent, vertical (such as taking a knee).  If for some reason you go "low/horizontal" it's because not only the environment permits it but because you are not alone.  Someone(s) always needs to be there in that vertical position so they can disengage and address a new threat ASAP, if necessary.

Luckily in my area there are a couple of instructors who teach arts that have grappling/ground fighting (BJJ, Kali, Jujutsu and a couple others) that are also active or retired LEO or Military.  The same rules, regarding "going low/horizontal" apply to both in my experience.



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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

The stand up sweep submit concept.

http://www.bjjee.com/articles/mma-guard-vs-bjj-guard-how-to-use-the-guard-in-both-scenarios/


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> This is a good article and pretty much sums up what I said in a thread a few months ago (weapon retention, environmental hazards, bad guy's friends etc) and how the main purpose for learning the ground game is so you can get out of the ground game (if you are alone) because of the dynamics the article notes.
> 
> The only thing it didn't cover (unless I missed it) is that the above is applicable, imo, if environment dictates and/or you are alone.  One of the things I like about the Gracie Combatives (but it's too expensive for my tastes) is that they take this into account.  If alone you are almost always, to some extent, vertical (such as taking a knee).  If for some reason you go "low/horizontal" it's because not only the environment permits it but because you are not alone.  Someone(s) always needs to be there in that vertical position so they can disengage and address a new threat ASAP, if necessary.
> 
> ...



And side control is hell on the knees on the concrete.


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## the42cop (Oct 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> And side control is hell on the knees on the concrete.


Yess! ^^ I took a week long Ground Survival instructor course awhile ago where we had to practice in full uniform with gear in a variety of environments, including an asphalt parking lot, gravel lot and carpet. I practice BJJ 2-3 times a week for the past 3 years and it was a HUGE eye opener for me! Not only is side control a *****, all of it is extremely difficult. Even something simple like shrimping is almost not possible at all...at least not the way it works in the nice padded gym! In the gym with fans blowing the sweat from my delicate little face and where I have mastered the ONE move that will end all pain... A gentle *tap tap tap* accompanied by "Ouch ouch ouch!"  

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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

the42cop said:


> Yess! ^^ I took a week long Ground Survival instructor course awhile ago where we had to practice in full uniform with gear in a variety of environments, including an asphalt parking lot, gravel lot and carpet. I practice BJJ 2-3 times a week for the past 3 years and it was a HUGE eye opener for me! Not only is side control a *****, all of it is extremely difficult. Even something simple like shrimping is almost not possible at all...at least not the way it works in the nice padded gym! In the gym with fans blowing the sweat from my delicate little face and where I have mastered the ONE move that will end all pain... A gentle *tap tap tap* accompanied by "Ouch ouch ouch!"
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Scarf hold is much nicer on the body. If you are going to be there for a bit.






and if you want to be a complete bastard.





A mate of mine did this to a guy in a fight. Said he could actually see the point where his soul just broke.


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## oaktree (Oct 24, 2016)

My problem with traditional scarf hold is look at uke right hand it is not under control, he could easily pull a knife and stab you. Second hold better but again leaves that right hand open,try this, take your thumb and your index finger push it slightly in your trachea were your Adam's apple is feel that?
Try bending your fingers in using the first knuckle and touch your Adam's apple feel that this is the type of things sport grapplers don't consider in a real life or death confrontation, I have said it before, a grappler can take me to ground mount me get me an armbar even break my arm but I'll slice up his kidneys, stomach and neck as he is doing it. It's not a dig at grapplers it's a dig at sport grappling who use sport techniques without modification for dealing with someone who is prepared to kill you on the street.


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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> My problem with traditional scarf hold is look at uke right hand it is not under control, he could easily pull a knife and stab you. Second hold better but again leaves that right hand open,try this, take your thumb and your index finger push it slightly in your trachea were your Adam's apple is feel that?
> Try bending your fingers in using the first knuckle and touch your Adam's apple feel that this is the type of things sport grapplers don't consider in a real life or death confrontation, I have said it before, a grappler can take me to ground mount me get me an armbar even break my arm but I'll slice up his kidneys, stomach and neck as he is doing it. It's not a dig at grapplers it's a dig at sport grappling who use sport techniques without modification for dealing with someone who is prepared to kill you on the street.


Well the other issue you have is that head/neck are red zones (at least in US LEO UoF) and so many Department Policies have major issues with head and neck control maneuvers unless you would already be able to say, use a baton, even lethal force.  

As for vertical vs horizontal in my mind I was picturing a pair I being mostly horizontal controlling the upper body via arms, not head/neck and the "vertical" guy controlling the legs (as one example.)

Especially since the Garner case in Staten Island New York anything that comes close to head/neck control is basically a no-go unless you could justify weapons use.

As for free arms I agree, especially when alone it's not good, unless you are in a completely dominant position (bad guy face down in the dirt).

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## oaktree (Oct 24, 2016)

I understand about the red zone, I think if one is to apply the scarf hold civilian case, its for either a moment to gain a better ground transition or after a weapon sweep.
In my classes we are taught always assume the other guy has a weapon and attempt in a fight is to kill you. I think a lot of sport Orient arts think the fight is just trading punches and no one is trying to kill each other. I think you are safer assuming the worse from your attacker doesn't mean you have to do the worse to him but I would rather be in control of the situation then my attacker killing me intentionally or unintentionally.
I think it's critical to know the grappling game no doubt about it, I think knowing the holes in the game that can be exploited by someone who knows the game and brings weapons into the game changes the game drastically.


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> I understand about the red zone, I think if one is to apply the scarf hold civilian case, its for either a moment to gain a better ground transition or after a weapon sweep.
> In my classes we are taught always assume the other guy has a weapon and attempt in a fight is to kill you. I think a lot of sport Orient arts think the fight is just trading punches and no one is trying to kill each other. I think you are safer assuming the worse from your attacker doesn't mean you have to do the worse to him but I would rather be in control of the situation then my attacker killing me intentionally or unintentionally.
> I think it's critical to know the grappling game no doubt about it, I think knowing the holes in the game that can be exploited by someone who knows the game and brings weapons into the game changes the game drastically.



You can catch both arms. So unless he stabs you with a concealed blade in his shoe. You should be pretty safe.


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## oaktree (Oct 24, 2016)

I can agree with getting both arms, I would use my other leg to wrap around that arm to free my other hand to search search, call for help or throw some punches in.


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> I can agree with getting both arms, I would use my other leg to wrap around that arm to free my other hand to search search, call for help or throw some punches in.


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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You can catch both arms. So unless he stabs you with a concealed blade in his shoe. You should be pretty safe.


My only concern again is that the neck is also included, even if it is with his arm.  Now, don't get me wrong, I will do what I have to do to go home, that includes rakeing eyes, groin grab and twists, don't care.  BUT things like this have to be seen in this context.  

All I mean is this btw.  I have seen officers who were good at BJJ get into trouble because they submited a use of force memo that illustrates they went to a red zone to "finish it" as quickly as possible.  That is the goal in sport certainly but in this line of work you have to be able to explain what justified you going for a red zone based on what the suspect was doing.  If all you can say is "to arrest ASAP the guy I did X" and you can't say "A, B and C justified me doing X" there is going to be a problem thanks to a combination of the US being litigious as hell for years compounded by the fact Police UoF is now a political cause celeb.

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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> My only concern again is that the neck is also included, even if it is with his arm.  Now, don't get me wrong, I will do what I have to do to go home, that includes rakeing eyes, groin grab and twists, don't care.  BUT things like this have to be seen in this context.
> 
> All I mean is this btw.  I have seen officers who were good at BJJ get into trouble because they submited a use of force memo that illustrates they went to a red zone to "finish it" as quickly as possible.  That is the goal in sport certainly but in this line of work you have to be able to explain what justified you going for a red zone based on what the suspect was doing.  If all you can say is "to arrest ASAP the guy I did X" and you can't say "A, B and C justified me doing X" there is going to be a problem thanks to a combination of the US being litigious as hell for years compounded by the fact Police UoF is now a political cause celeb.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Yeah but knee on belly is technically positional asphyxia. So pretty much holding a person in a manner that keeps them actually down runs those risks.

Here we go the wiki example has the nice knee on belly photo as an example.

Positional asphyxia - Wikipedia

Technically you are supposed to hold a guy in that srtaight arm wrist lock thing. But I can pretty much guarantee nobody would be able to hold me down in that there is too much space.

You can key lock that gift wrapped arm if you want. But you are adding complexity and therefore risk.


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## oaktree (Oct 24, 2016)

Do you think using the red zone as momentarily transition point a grey area as long as you are not finishing in it?
Civilian case, control of the head and neck is excellent way to off balance someone and control a person but I understand from an Leo perspective that it is a delicate area of control due to the higher risk of injury and lawsuits.


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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but knee on belly is technically positional asphyxia. So pretty much holding a person in a manner that keeps them actually down runs those risks.
> 
> Here we go the wiki example has the nice knee on belly photo as an example.
> 
> ...


Oh positional asphyxia is something else we also cover BUT that is seen (not saying right or wrong) as "stuff happens" if you are mid fight because the chance of death or serious bodily injury is, from a statistical point of view, far lower than head/neck control.  Where you get jammed there is if you say hog tie a suspect and shove him in the back of a squad lying on their belly.  That isn't in the heat of a fight so the "stuff happens" goes out the window. 

That said the "LE standard" here (as opposed to formal private training) is to apply your weight in the area of the shoulder blades in terms of torso to minimize the dynamic.

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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Do you think using the red zone as momentarily transition point a grey area as long as you are not finishing in it?
> Civilian case, control of the head and neck is excellent way to off balance someone and control a person but I understand from an Leo perspective that it is a delicate area of control due to the higher risk of injury and lawsuits.


If things go right probably no problem.  For a moment though think "Murphy's law".  If you can't justify going there out of the gate, he zigs when he should have zagged and now you have a guy with herniated disks or something you will be asked "and why did you go to the guy's head/neck with a hold like that." Murphy likes me a little to much so I worry about stuff like that.

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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Do you think using the red zone as momentarily transition point a grey area as long as you are not finishing in it?
> Civilian case, control of the head and neck is excellent way to off balance someone and control a person but I understand from an Leo perspective that it is a delicate area of control due to the higher risk of injury and lawsuits.


Note, my prior response doesn't mean you have to "work up" to such a technique, you can "skip steps" so to speak but you do need to be able to objectively justify the reasonableness of it.

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## Buka (Oct 24, 2016)

Good article there.

Have to train/work with your duty clothes, be it uniform or plain clothes. Have to adjust how to do things, and don't worry, you'll find those things pretty quickly. In uniform, the bulkier it is, the more the problems. But they can be worked with if you don't mind getting dirty and smashed up. And trust me, you're going to wreck a uniform or three.

And, yes, shrimping sucks with a duty belt on. Big time.

Duty belt means a lot. I refused to wear any kind of spray on my belt, don't like it to begin with, and really don't want it anywhere near me when wrestling with some damn fool. The ground itself can make it leak or spray. (It was mandatory that we wore it in uniform, but I never did, not once, and nobody ever said anything) what kind of duty holster you wear means a great deal in these situations. You have to have at least a level three IMO. But even with the best holster, your weapon itself can be used as a "handle" while rolling around with a suspect. The way to deal with that is in training, not by surprise if it happens to you for the first time while on duty.

How well your vest fits is a very big factor as well. An off the rack vest, or one your buddy gave you, isn't the way to go. Nor is standard department issued. Has to be tailored for you (and if it ain't you'll probably stop wearing it anyway at some point - and that ain't good) You'll find in training that the vest itself can choke the crap out of you when it rides up in front (especially if it doesn't fit properly), or push your chin up when you don't want it to. It can also be used against you like a horse collar, so work that, too. Hot to train in, as well. Real hot. But hey, nobody said it was going to be easy.

In 1992, I had approached my bosses and told him we had to completely redesign the DT program, (I had written up a new  proposal). I had designed the course six years before. The new proposal was met with polite chuckles and suggestions as to wear I could file it. (can't say I blamed them) I asked them to come to my dojo on Saturday night and that I'd buy dinner afterwards. Told them to bring workout clothes. They came.

This is a pic of me, my Section head and two of my other bosses after we did a class for officers in uniform and plain clothes with my teacher. At dinner afterwards my boss said, "Go, do whatever the hell you want and get everyone trained, I'll sign off on it. Just tell me how the hell he did all that stuff."








Good times. And I'll tell you what, Rickson knows almost as much about LEO training as he does about BJJ.


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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

Buka said:


> Good article there.
> 
> Have to train/work with your duty clothes, be it uniform or plain clothes. Have to adjust how to do things, and don't worry, you'll find those things pretty quickly. In uniform, the bulkier it is, the more the problems. But they can be worked with if you don't mind getting dirty and smashed up. And trust me, you're going to wreck a uniform or three.
> 
> ...




I think a lot of people don't understand how even a tailored vest can change how you move and, more importantly, that damn duty belt.  Due to my slim waste I literally only have a gap in the small of my back.  Starting from behind right hip and going clockwise...glove pouch, Streamlight stinger, radio, taser, mag pouch, spray (hate it but have to carry it), chain cuffs, firearm, baton, hinge cuffs.  Also not all lvl 3 holsters are created equal.  I remember the first one I had and it was the stupidest design I ever heard of.  It had a thumb break and then you needed to cant the weapon forward to get around the internal safety feature.  Well if the bad guy is in front of you they will naturally pull the weapon towards them... in the direction needed to defeat the safety feature.  It was just silly.


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## Buka (Oct 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I think a lot of people don't understand how even a tailored vest can change how you move and, more importantly, that damn duty belt.  Due to my slim waste I literally only have a gap in the small of my back.  Starting from behind right hip and going clockwise...glove pouch, Streamlight stinger, radio, taser, mag pouch, spray (hate it but have to carry it), chain cuffs, firearm, baton, hinge cuffs.  Also not all lvl 3 holsters are created equal.  I remember the first one I had and it was the stupidest design I ever heard of.  It had a thumb break and then you needed to cant the weapon forward to get around the internal safety feature.  Well if the bad guy is in front of you they will naturally pull the weapon towards them... in the direction needed to defeat the safety feature.  It was just silly.



We used to take the old vests that were deemed no longer effective due to age and roll in them. But, yeah, they change everything.

Ain't it a pain being narrow waisted, brother. I'm a skinny bastard, too, but I'm lucky as  dog right now. I keep gloves in a leg pants pocket. Going in the same clockwise direction from behind right hip- chain cuffs, two pouched mags, radio, firearm. That's it, that's the list. Keep flashlight in other side leg pocket. Notebook in another pocket (cookies in a another) (seriously)

How do you like the hinge cuffs?


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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

Buka said:


> We used to take the old vests that were deemed no longer effective due to age and roll in them. But, yeah, they change everything.
> 
> Ain't it a pain being narrow waisted, brother. I'm a skinny bastard, too, but I'm lucky as  dog right now. I keep gloves in a leg pants pocket. Going in the same clockwise direction from behind right hip- chain cuffs, two pouched mags, radio, firearm. That's it, that's the list. Keep flashlight in other side leg pocket. Notebook in another pocket (cookies in a another) (seriously)
> 
> How do you like the hinge cuffs?


I wish I could ditch stuff but about the only thing I could ditch per policy is the flashlight and I keep that there because I always forgot to snag the mag light from the car  so that one is my fault.  Gotta love Department policies, though I don't regret the baton.  It can be a great equalizer if you are shy of justifying lethal force.  If I could I would put the flashlight in the cargo pocket but we had to fight kick and scream to get Admin to let us have those pants... The deal was "must be closed at all times for a neat and tidy appearance" so it's not practical to put gear there that may need quick deployment.

As for the hinge cuffs good and bad.  

The good: easier to apply (no twisting) and the same thing that makes them easy to apply also means it's harder for people to slip their hands in front of them and also less flexibility to try and get stuff out of their pants to ditch it etc.

The bad... The radius of each cuff is pretty big.  When arrest really skinny people (typically females and juveniles) the hinge cuffs are simply to big.  I used to carry two hinged and just use one cuff for both wrists on those occasions then one night I am dealing with a cracked out 20 something female and their wrists/hands were to big for that but to small to use both cuffs, so I swapped one out for chain.

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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Oh positional asphyxia is something else we also cover BUT that is seen (not saying right or wrong) as "stuff happens" if you are mid fight because the chance of death or serious bodily injury is, from a statistical point of view, far lower than head/neck control.  Where you get jammed there is if you say hog tie a suspect and shove him in the back of a squad lying on their belly.  That isn't in the heat of a fight so the "stuff happens" goes out the window.
> 
> That said the "LE standard" here (as opposed to formal private training) is to apply your weight in the area of the shoulder blades in terms of torso to minimize the dynamic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



And you can get around it. There are figure 4 arm controls that peretty much tie up everything. The issue you have is they are technically almost go into the trick move style of submission wrestling. so you keep adding to the complexity of a move and keep lowering the chance it will actually work.

Those T bag style submissions.





That figure 4 is good kit though if you are actually fighting to get a guys hands behind his back.


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Do you think using the red zone as momentarily transition point a grey area as long as you are not finishing in it?
> Civilian case, control of the head and neck is excellent way to off balance someone and control a person but I understand from an Leo perspective that it is a delicate area of control due to the higher risk of injury and lawsuits.



I did. Because my biggest issue was I would eat punches headbutts and elbows. Well before anyone had time to access a weapon. We also used to break dudes arms and legs trying to sweep them with armlocks.

But I also pretty much took people back before I took them to the ground. Which kind of becomes the best of both worlds.





It is that point that you start loosing control of the person that suddenly you have to escalate. So for a proffessional restraint. You really need to have that control from pretty much the moment you confront someone.


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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> And you can get around it. There are figure 4 arm controls that peretty much tie up everything. The issue you have is they are technically almost go into the trick move style of submission wrestling. so you keep adding to the complexity of a move and keep lowering the chance it will actually work.
> 
> Those T bag style submissions.
> 
> ...



Yes you can get around it BUT I was simply referring specifically to the maneuvers you referenced previously.  That said, again, the point of the article, from a LE perspective, is to learn ground fighting largely to avoid it but to also learn, if you have no choice, to use those techniques that allow you to do so while preserving weapon retention and the ability to disengage if the suspects friends show up.

I basically go into any encounter doing the following math in the event stuff goes sideways and it becomes a struggle.

1-Am I alone or do I have another officer(s) already with me + 2- environment + 3-are there other people around (or are there other rooms etc in the immediate area that may be concealing other people) + 4- always think weapon retention= the techniques I would prefer to use.

Note however I did say prefer...fights are dynamic and I may want to do A or B but the way things play out I am forced to do C, stuff happens, but I always try to have the foundation of a plan.


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## Juany118 (Oct 24, 2016)

Buka said:


> We used to take the old vests that were deemed no longer effective due to age and roll in them. But, yeah, they change everything.
> 
> Ain't it a pain being narrow waisted, brother. I'm a skinny bastard, too, but I'm lucky as  dog right now. I keep gloves in a leg pants pocket. Going in the same clockwise direction from behind right hip- chain cuffs, two pouched mags, radio, firearm. That's it, that's the list. Keep flashlight in other side leg pocket. Notebook in another pocket (cookies in a another) (seriously)
> 
> How do you like the hinge cuffs?



@Buka I just reread this and have to ask... Cookies?  What kind?  I admit to always having a chocolate chip Clif bar in one side pocket, you never know when you will have not gotten a meal yet and then get stuck on a perimeter or going call to call.  I am a little sensitive to blood sugar drops, not diabetic sensitive but enough to get very cranky.


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Yes you can get around it BUT I was simply referring specifically to the maneuvers you referenced previously. That said, again, the point of the article, from a LE perspective, is to learn ground fighting largely to avoid it but to also learn, if you have no choice, to use those techniques that allow you to do so while preserving weapon retention and the ability to disengage if the suspects friends show up.



Getting around issues like dumping your body weight or controlling the head mostly requires you to be a super slick wrestler. As this high up floating on top style wrestling. Which would be ideal for police work. Is also freaking hard. MMA use it a lot because it is also easier to hit people from that position.






But they are training every day at a top level. If you are going to look at this as a sometimes thing then you need to make some compromises.

I have fought guys in belt kit. If you control the grapple then you control their access to your gear. More than if you are not in control. Getting your stuff is easier if you are distracted by worrying about if you are going to win the fight.

Most physical arrests I have seen go to the deck. Because you can hold people down with your body and then free up your arms to do arrest things. like use handcuffs. I have done standing physical arrests. But they have generally been weak people.

Now otherwise I agree if you do go to the ground. Set yourself in a position that you can get back up even if it lets them back up.


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## Buka (Oct 25, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I wish I could ditch stuff but about the only thing I could ditch per policy is the flashlight and I keep that there because I always forgot to snag the mag light from the car  so that one is my fault.  Gotta love Department policies, though I don't regret the baton.  It can be a great equalizer if you are shy of justifying lethal force.  If I could I would put the flashlight in the cargo pocket but we had to fight kick and scream to get Admin to let us have those pants... The deal was "must be closed at all times for a neat and tidy appearance" so it's not practical to put gear there that may need quick deployment.
> 
> As for the hinge cuffs good and bad.
> 
> ...





Juany118 said:


> @Buka I just reread this and have to ask... Cookies?  What kind?  I admit to always having a chocolate chip Clif bar in one side pocket, you never know when you will have not gotten a meal yet and then get stuck on a perimeter or going call to call.  I am a little sensitive to blood sugar drops, not diabetic sensitive but enough to get very cranky.



I try to stay politically correct and show no favoritism to any one group of cookies. I usually keep three in a ziplock. Tonight were two lovely honey, raisin oatmeals and a Macadamia nut/cocolateChip. Dunked the last one in a double shot of espresso - then pounded nine miles of a beat with a chip eating grin on my face. I so love this job. 

Never used the hinge cuffs. Had a pair put on me, though, several times. Good cuffs. If you leave me unsupervised with chain cuffs on I'll get out of them in ninety seconds. Never could with the hinge cuffs.


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