# My new EPAK outline



## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 20, 2006)

SO we all agree that there should be a few changes added or deleted to the system.  Ok well lets doit then. I for one would like to see some FMA type weapons techniques, ground techniques, offensive techniqes any other ideas.

What about mixing some SL4 with HUks ideas or Zach Whitsons CounterPoint or maybe even some of Larry Tatums stuff.

What would you do?


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2006)

First of all, I doubt there will ever be a concensus here.  Many will feel it doesn't need change, and should't be changed, but others will feel it does.  Among those who feel it does, they will never agree on WHAT to change.

I cannot comment with specifics due to the fact I am from a different lineage and am not intimately familiar with EPAK curriculum.

Given that, here are my general suggestions:

Examine the existing techniques with a very critical eye.  Ask yourself if they are realistic and could be expected to work.  Perhaps not in their entirety, or as "textbook perfect", but are the ideas contained in them really sound and realiable?  If so, keep them.   If not, see if you can figure out what changes they might need to make them sound.  Maybe some techniques need to be combined into one, for them to make sense together.  Look at techniques that might be redundant.  Eliminate redundancy.  If a redundant tech has a nugget of useful originality, see if you can keep that nugget.  Perhaps it can be incorporated into a different tech that is being kept.

If some techs seem really unsound and unrealistic, ask yourself if there is a different reason to keep them.  Do they develop other skills, such as posture, balance, speed, power, etc., that are useful skills?  If so, maybe redesign the technique and recategorize it as a "skill building exercise", rather than a Self Defense Technique.

Ask yourself if anything is missing from the art.  Grappling, weapons work, etc.  Incorporate this in, if it interests you.  This may be different from person to person.  Maybe someone likes Chinese forms.  The fluidity can be useful, and study of the forms can lead to another kind of understanding of movement and usefulness.  For these people, study the Chinese arts and bring in what you find useful.  Chi Sao from Wing Chun is a very useful drill.  I have had some "Ah-Ha!" moments while doing Chi Sao, when a nugget of kenpo's usefulness suddenly became clear to me.  Other people may not be interested in this, so it wouldn't be appropriate for them.

Ultimately, I think this will be an individual endeavor.  What do YOU think needs changing?  Do it.  Work with others who are like-minded, the end result will probably be better than if you do it yourself.


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 20, 2006)

I would incorporate more emphasis on grappling, ground fighting especially.


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## michaeledward (Jul 20, 2006)

Let me think about it for the next, oh, 30 or 40 years, and I'll get back to you. Til then, I'm just gonna keep trying to get through Short 1 in a manner satisfactory to Mr. Planas


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## Carol (Jul 20, 2006)

What would I do? 

I am about to make a training decision of my own, and these are my thoughts.  I'm looking at Kenpo schools because I want to learn Kenpo.   If I want to learn grappling, I'll make arrangements with one of my current instructors who has taught us BJJ.  Or, I'll go to a BJJ school.

If I pay for Kenpo, I want Kenpo...not grappling, not Arnis...Kenpo.  The other stuff is all good, I just don't want my Kenpo tuition/mat time to go torwards it.


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## HKphooey (Jul 20, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> SO we all agree that there should be a few changes added or deleted to the system. Ok well lets doit then. I for one would like to see some FMA type weapons techniques, ground techniques, offensive techniqes any other ideas.
> 
> What about mixing some SL4 with HUks ideas or Zach Whitsons CounterPoint or maybe even some of Larry Tatums stuff.
> 
> What would you do?


 
Only you can make the decision where your training may take you.  Train as you must, but be true to what you desire the outcome to be.


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## IWishToLearn (Jul 20, 2006)

I agree with the concept that each should choose their own flavor of ice cream depending on what they want.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 20, 2006)

Personaly I love ro grapple but that is because I grew up wrestilng and I do quite a bit of submission grappling with a variety of different style of grapplers but these days I have as much kenpo in my as grappler seeing as how I have been doing this little diddy called EPAK since 1991.  I am doing alot of cross training in things like Panatuken boxing, PT Kali and Doce Pares Escrima all of which are part of Zach Whitson Counterpoint.  What I really enjoy the most about Counterpoint is that is has taught me to use my Kenpo in and fighting format and not just as kick *** self defense system.

However, that is my cup of tea but I see all sorts of things that one could put into 1 systems that would basicaly be pulling bits and pieces from other systems.

Any ideas?


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> What would I do?
> 
> I am about to make a training decision of my own, and these are my thoughts. I'm looking at Kenpo schools because I want to learn Kenpo. If I want to learn grappling, I'll make arrangements with one of my current instructors who has taught us BJJ. Or, I'll go to a BJJ school.
> 
> If I pay for Kenpo, I want Kenpo...not grappling, not Arnis...Kenpo. The other stuff is all good, I just don't want my Kenpo tuition/mat time to go torwards it.


 
Aye, good points.  When adding elements from other arts, at some point is it no longer kenpo?


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## Carol (Jul 20, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Aye, good points. When adding elements from other arts, at some point is it no longer kenpo?


 
At some point it is not Kenpo in the way that meets my expectations, espcially in class focus.  Personally, I expect the material to be compartmentalized so it does not interfere with my core Kenpo training.  I also expect it to be seperate enough so the people learning the added material are ones that really want to be there and want to do it.  

If someone likes grappling (as I do), then I don't see anything wrong with grappling.  If someone doesn't like grappling (some Kenpoists don't), then I don't see anything wrong with a Kenpoist not grappling...and still being revered as a solid Kenpoist.  What I absolutely abhor is when those that don't like to grapple are pushed to do so.  Not fair to them, not fair to those of us that actually like it and want to learn something.

I want to learn BJJ techniques from a grappler, and stickfighting techniques from an escrimador.  If the Kenpoist has vigourously cross-trained, and adds to the curriculum with a black belt (or equivalent) of more than one art, that would be someone I would be delighted to train under.  However, I would rather not learn them from an instructor teaching me grappling or stickfighting because he's a BB in Kenpo that's picked up extra stuff on the way.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> At some point it is not Kenpo in the way that meets my expectations, espcially in class focus. Personally, I expect the material to be compartmentalized so it does not interfere with my core Kenpo training. I also expect it to be seperate enough so the people learning the added material are ones that really want to be there and want to do it.
> 
> If someone likes grappling (as I do), then I don't see anything wrong with grappling. If someone doesn't like grappling (some Kenpoists don't), then I don't see anything wrong with a Kenpoist not grappling...and still being revered as a solid Kenpoist. What I absolutely abhor is when those that don't like to grapple are pushed to do so. Not fair to them, not fair to those of us that actually like it and want to learn something.
> 
> I want to learn BJJ techniques from a grappler, and stickfighting techniques from an escrimador. If the Kenpoist has vigourously cross-trained, and adds to the curriculum with a black belt (or equivalent) of more than one art, that would be someone I would be delighted to train under. However, I would rather not learn them from an instructor teaching me grappling or stickfighting because he's a BB in Kenpo that's picked up extra stuff on the way.


 
yeah, that makes sense, learn from a specialists who really knows the stuff well.

This is why I think any changes are really a reflection of the indivual's desires and interests.  I'm not trying to say EPAK needs to change.  I don't know EPAK, I know Tracys and I've made my feelings clear several times over about what I think needs to change in Tracys.  But while they are similar and come from the same root, they are not the same thing and I don't mean to state that I think EPAK needs to be changed, 'cause I really don't know.

I guess all I'm saying is, do what is right for you, and don't be afraid to make your own decisions about things.  I'm not advocating that some beginner start making all kinds of changes to things that he doesn't understand to begin with.  But I do think that after a person reaches a certain level in their training (just what that level is, is nebulous and difficult to define clearly), it is OK to think for yourself and make decisions and changes that seem appropriate to you, if you think it is necessary and if you believe it will improve your ability to use the art, and your students ability to use the art.

I am a strong advocate of respect for seniors in the arts.  There is always someone who can teach you more so you understand better and improve.  But sometimes we don't meet that person or are not in a position to train with that person, so we do the best we can with what we have to work with.  I don't think that we always have to seek approval from others to validate what we are doing, if you believe in yourself.  That's all.


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## Seabrook (Jul 21, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> If I pay for Kenpo, I want Kenpo...not grappling, not Arnis...Kenpo. The other stuff is all good, I just don't want my Kenpo tuition/mat time to go torwards it.


 
I wish more people thought the way you did.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I wish more people thought the way you did.


 
There is certainly something to be said about being dedicated to one art and searching for the answers within that art.  For many people that works perfectly well also.

Sometimes the variety that we can pick and choose from today can be a curse.  It makes it hard to stay focused.  It is easy to get distracted and wonder "what are those guys over there doing?  Maybe I want to do THAT too..."


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 21, 2006)

What exactly is Kenpo?  I mean if you do Parker Kenpo, you do Kenpo, if you do Tracy Kenpo, you do Kenpo, if you Planas, or Kara-Ho, you still do Kenpo, or Cerio, or SL-4, or any of the others, and the list goes on and on and on.  Adding or deleting doesnt change the fact that it is Kenpo, it may no longer be EPAK, but it is still Kenpo.


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## Ray (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm going to have to finish perfecting my kenpo before I hop on the bandwagon to change the cirriculum.


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## HKphooey (Jul 21, 2006)

Just think if GM Parker followed some of this advice?  American Kenpo would have never been invented.  I am sure he heard some of the same arguements from the "elders" and hardcore students when he wanted to breakaway and formulate his own style.  

But I agree one needs a solid understanding before they can say what works and does not, and add other styles to "cover all the bases".


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 21, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> If I pay for Kenpo, I want Kenpo...not grappling, not Arnis...Kenpo. The other stuff is all good, I just don't want my Kenpo tuition/mat time to go torwards it.


Couldn't agree more.


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## Rich_Hale (Jul 22, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> SO we all agree that there should be a few changes added or deleted to the system.
> What would you do?


 
If anyone thinks I was one of the "all" who agreed that we should add and delete from Ed Parker's Kenpo, I (for one) have been misunderstood.

Ed Parker's Kenpo is an art that carries the artists name, so who are we to change it? That's like saying I'd like to take the Mona Lisa off the wall and rework the smile to show a little more teeth.

If you want to change Ed Parker's Kenpo into something you like better do what Doc has done with SL4, or what Larry has done with Larry Tatum's Kenpo. 

These are two men who came from the very heart of Ed Parker's Kenpo, but decided to go their own direction and respectfully changed the name of their art to reflect that change.

I say this will full respect to Ron Chapel, as he is my Mentor, and to Larry Tatum as a Larry Tatum black belt.

Let's just accept Ed Parker's Kenpo for what it is - instead of trying to fix it all the time. 

I teach Ed Parker's Kenpo at Bas Rutten's Elite MMA school were we have Bas teaching his system, a BJJ instructor, boxing instructor and a kickboxing instructor, and we all co-exist without anyone trying to change each others art.

Besides when Mr. Parker was alive he was always able to put to rest any question I asked him about his art. He just simply isn't around to do that anymore.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 22, 2006)

Rich_Hale said:
			
		

> If anyone thinks I was one of the "all" who agreed that we should add and delete from Ed Parker's Kenpo, I (for one) have been misunderstood.
> 
> Ed Parker's Kenpo is an art that carries the artists name, so who are we to change it? That's like saying I'd like to take the Mona Lisa off the wall and rework the smile to show a little more teeth.
> 
> ...


 
And there you have it.


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