# Knife Techniques In The Kenpo System



## True2Kenpo (Mar 20, 2003)

Fellow Kenpoists,

I have been thinking a lot about the five knife techniques taught in the Kenpo System; Raining Lance, Thrusting Lance, Entwined Lance, Glancing Lance, and Piercing Lance.  I feel that the techniques offer a very valuable base to build from, however I question if they would be a practical defense for a knife attack on today's streets.

How do you feel? 

Thank you for your thoughts and comments in advance.  Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2003)

Exactly what would you do for "Today's Streets"?


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 21, 2003)

Draw my gun.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo_*
> Draw my gun.
> *



:rofl: Right! never bring a knife to a gun fight!:rofl:


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## True2Kenpo (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Exactly what would you do for "Today's Streets"?
> 
> *



Mr. C,

Good afternoon sir!  I understand your question and my question is not meant to look down on the techniques that have been developed for a knife attack by Mr. Parker.  

I guess I just feel that people today have a lot more knowledge as far as weilding a knife and I just wanted to see what others thought about the knife techniques that exist in the Kenpo System.  I know that many organizations and instructors have built upon the knife concepts and I was hoping that the posed question would lead to some discussion on different approaches.

In anycase, I hope all is well for you sir.  I apologize for not being able to attend your seminar in WV, but I will plan ahead next time.

Good journey.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by True2Kenpo _*
> I understand but my question is that I just feel that people today have a lot more knowledge as far as wielding a knife and I just wanted to see what others thought about the current knife techniques that exist in the Kenpo System if they are still efficient.   Respectfully,  Joshua Ryer  UPK Pittsburgh
> *



I do agree with you that the basic knife techniques are good, but you must look at the larger picture.  The purpose of the entire system collectively is to prepare you for anything.  Too many don't see the forest for the trees.  

The few knife techniques as well as several other categories such as gun, club and multiple attacks or any others for that matter, are only hinted upon to give a basic understanding and start.  

Within the "what if" phase we need to totally re-evaluate all the material and come up with movements and answers that fit (or are tailored) to each one of us.  I realize that many people do not or have not had much in the line of this kind of exposure to the system or it's depth, thus much of the confusion to the obvious curriculum.

A deeper view will reveal that much of what you ask is there and does in fact need to be explored to bring out the best possible responses in us.  My point is that the "Base System" is fine as it is however, it was NOT intended to be taken at face value only.

:asian:


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## ikenpo (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> Within the "what if" phase we need to totally re-evaluate all the material and come up with movements and answers that fit (or are tailored) to each one of us.  I realize that many people do not or have not had much in the line of this kind of exposure to the system or it's depth, thus much of the confusion to the obvious curriculum.
> :asian: *



Mr. C,

Is there a particular way that you have re-evaluated the knife & gun techniques? Do you build off the bases that currently exist or do you start from another level? Could you give us an example of your outline if so? Do you think it would be good for American Kenpo in general if this evaluation in the "what if" stage had a best practices approach where the information was shared amongst everyone? Or does have everyone doing their own thing foster more "useful" creativity? Finally, looking at the current Kenpo community, what seniors would you say have created a solid "what if" extend bases for the knife? for the gun?

my personal guess would be Mr. Pick for the knife & Dr. Chape'l for the gun, but I haven't been exposed to enough to say this without a doubt.

jb :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Mr. C,  Is there a particular way that you have re-evaluated the knife & gun techniques?
> jb :asian: *



I think that knife and gun techniques take an awful lot of special attention and critical drilling after one becomes fairly well skilled in the art.  I don't think knife and gun techniques have changed all that much over time.  They are "DANGEROUS" at all levels to say the least.  In our ideal phase we learn the coordination and overviews of the techniques but in reality there is much more detailed work to do than I have seen undertaken by most.  Personally I reserve this particular study for the advanced Black Belt student.

With respect to the 5 that have been mentioned, some considerations are.........

Divert, Seize, control and disarm is always the main theme in addition to other variables........

Raining Lance - Front Overhead knife (working knife from above from a Left Neutral Bow)

Glancing Lance - Front shuffling thrust (working knife from the outside  from a Left Neutral Bow)

Thrusting Lance - Front step through thrust (working knife from the inside from a Right Neutral Bow)

Piercing Lance - Front - Right Knife Thrust While Your Arms Are Up (working from the outside  from a Left Neutral Bow)

Entwined Lance - Front right step through knife thrust (working knife from the inside from a Left Neutral Bow)

As you can see.... these only encompass a "few" of the many  possibilities that can occur during a actual confrontation.  There is no slash defense outlined (however, Returning Storm or variation can be inserted) no rear attacks, no flank attacks, no uppercut attacks, as well as several other types of angular attacks not to mention different grips or if we are armed as well.   We only deal with a "FEW" and all from the front  working inside, outside or from above the centerline.  This is barely a start.

We must then call upon the other weapon attacks to research if they could be substituted in any way like "Returning Strom".  This will  obviously reveal many answers, as will many other of the curriculums techniques if a knife is inserted rather than just the unarmed scenario we already have learned.  This of course, is NOT geared for the beginning student but rather the expert Black Belt 2nd Degree or higher.  I think you get my drift.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Do you build off the bases that currently exist or do you start from another level?
> jb :asian: *



Both



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*Could you give us an example of your outline if so?
> jb :asian: *



I think you get the idea from the above.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Do you think it would be good for American Kenpo in general if this evaluation in the "what if" stage had a best practices approach where the information was shared amongst everyone?
> jb :asian: *



Sure, I think everyone that would listen could benefit.  But as I always say......... "Some will, Some won't ....... All can"!



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Or does have everyone doing their own thing foster more "useful" creativity?
> jb :asian: *



I think many have a creative side....... some just don't want to share outside their circles, and in some cases for good reason.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Looking at the current Kenpo community, what seniors would you say have created a solid "what if" extend bases for the knife?
> jb :asian: *



Those that I am familiar with (which may not be everybody), Steve LaBounty, Huk Planas, Mike Pick, Skip Hancock, Paul Mills, Gil Hibben.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> And what seniors would you say have created a solid "what if" extend bases for the gun?
> jb :asian: *



Ron Chape'l, Steve LaBounty, & Ron Sanchez



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> And what seniors would you say have created a solid "what if" extend bases for the whip?
> jb :asian: *



Indiana Jones, & Huk Planas!

:asian:


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## ikenpo (Mar 22, 2003)

Thank you for the insight...

jb:asian:


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## Stick Dummy (Mar 22, 2003)

Josh,

Great thread!!


Mr. C. -  I'd love to "experiment" with these the next time you come up, if we have the time.

 My VERY limited understanding is that any given styles knife Tech's must be fluid - dynamic - and based on both enviromental and situational conditions.

  Mr. Murphy (of Murphy's Law) can come to visit often - Its entertaining to do something like FMA-IMA styles and have an advanced practitioner of those arts "finish" you with a Fencing style thrust......... :erg:  BTDT many times

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> *Mr. C. -  I'd love to "experiment" with these the next time you come up, if we have the time. *



I'd like to see a technique line next time. Start with Delayed Sword and keep going until people start to drop out.  Or maybe hit a few other advanced techniques in the system while still doing the technique line.:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I'd like to see a technique line next time. Start with Delayed Sword, maybe hit a few other advanced techniques, keep going until people start to drop. :asian:
> *



Man, these Ohio folks are sadistic!   I'm liking you more and more Jason!

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Man, these Ohio folks are sadistic!   I'm liking you more and more Jason!*



I'm always ready for some training.  Your signature at the bottom of your posts says it all.:asian:


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## jaybacca72 (Mar 23, 2003)

nice reply on the weapons questions,just on for you if you had to chose what knife to carry what would it be.and what knives do you have in your collection and what ones did Mr.Parker have in his besides gil's.oh that's more than oh well.
take care
jay
ps when are you close to the boarder again?:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jaybacca72_*
> Nice reply on the weapons questions!
> take care, jay*



Thank You!



> _Originally posted by jaybacca72_*
> If you had to chose a knife to carry what knife would it be?
> take care, jay*



I have a complete collection of bali song knives..... originally made by Les, but I like the Pick knife and Paul Mills knife for everyday carry.  Different uses ....... different blades.



> _Originally posted by jaybacca72_*
> What knives do you have in your collection?
> take care, jay*


*

Check out this prior post with my knives........
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6057&highlight=Ricardo




Originally posted by jaybacca72
What ones did Mr.Parker have in his besides gil's.
take care, jay

Click to expand...


He had a whole gear bag full of different blades and guns....LOL all sorts of implements of destruction  




Originally posted by jaybacca72

Click to expand...

*


> ps when are you close to the boarder again
> take care, jay



Anytime you want me......lol :rofl: 

:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 23, 2003)

Here is a picture of the knife I carry with me, it's a Mills fighter.







I like it because it's double edged (good for short-held trapping) and it's got a belly on it.  This means that if you use the knife as you are meant to and cut with the entire length of the blade, you will penetrate deeper than with a simple straight blade.  Mr. Mills is extremely insistant on having this design for his fighters, and has incorporated it into his knifes for many many years.  

Here is a pic from the AKKI website, it has a few more of Mr. Mill's knife designs.  They are all made with high quality material and keep an edge like nothing I've ever seen before.  Mr. Mills also has also designed a brand new folding fighter.  He's built in several features from his previous designs, including the double edge and belly on the blade.  He has also built in a special feature that literally allows you to "quick draw" the blade flip it open and stick it into your opponent in one smooth move.  I'll have to check to see if I can post a picture of it on here.  


Pic of Mills knifes (Including Fighters, Bowies, Claws, etc. just a small portion of the many knife designs)


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## satans.barber (Mar 23, 2003)

Is that actually legal to carry where you live then? Couldn't carry that here 

Ian.


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## tarabos (Mar 23, 2003)

there is a limit to the length of the actual blade on the knife in the states but i am not sure if it varies from state to state. i'm pretty sure in PA that it can be no longer than four inches but don't quote me on that, i couldn't say 100% for sure.


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## Blindside (Mar 23, 2003)

A source of US knife laws:

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm#S-W

Remember that some municipalities may have more restrictive requirements than that of the state.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 23, 2003)

Double edged knives are not legal carry blades anywhere that I'm aware of, but the only way anyone on the streets would know that I had it on me is if I had to use it.  Given that circumstance, I think I would be okay with the consequences.


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## satans.barber (Mar 24, 2003)

The British Law is here:

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html

The max blade length is 3", and it's illegal to carry a fixed blade knife. One thing that that doesn't mention is that in a recent House of Lords ruling, lock knives are now classed as fixed blade knives, and hence are also illegal carry.

Basically you can carry a small, folding pen knife and that's it, which isn't that much use for defense if it's not locking! I've moved onto a kubotan as my pocket surprise of choice these days 

Ian.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 24, 2003)

I read some where that you guys across the pond, buy more baseball bats than any other country on the planet (population average) and you don't even play baseball :shrug: .  So you can carry a big stick, but you can't carry a knife.


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## satans.barber (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *I read some where that you guys across the pond, buy more baseball bats than any other country on the planet (population average) and you don't even play baseball :shrug: .  So you can carry a big stick, but you can't carry a knife. *



Lol, not legally you can't! 

Ian.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 29, 2003)

It's never illegal until your caught   

Does anyone ever practice knife self defense techniques with a real blade?  


:asian: 


Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *It's never illegal until your caught
> 
> Does anyone ever practice knife self defense techniques with a real blade?
> ...



I did with my 5 degree black belt teacher . Oh yeah, he pulled out a REAL knife and told me to stab him with FULL POWER AND SPEED. 

it was DONE in front of basketball field. I was nervous at first. My initial response was " I have a future waiting ".

to answer your question, YES, i have seen it. I am sure many of you see that elsewhere. 

there is nothing to talk about here.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 4, 2004)

So I was curious--how's your training been going? Have you continued to find the knife techs impractical, as you'vee learned more about them?


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 4, 2004)

your questions are excellents. They make me think HARD. My head is spinning now.  I will answer your questions 1 by 1



> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *how's your training been going?  *



I am no longer training now because of my age. In the past, i studied MA.



> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Have you continued to find the knife techs impractical, as you'vee learned more about them? *



 knife techniques are impractical??? I don't really know and I REALLY understand why you ask yourself this question. I am with you on this 100%

BUT the answer for this questions depends who taught you knife techniques and how you practice knife techniques in school.

However,I can tell you a few things here

1-When I FIRST learned knife techniques, my friend used UN-REAL knife to attack me.

2-Of course, defending a REAL knife attacK is very DIFFERENT from defending an UN-REAL knife attack because we are afraid of getting stabbed or cut.

psychological effect and mentally effect are EXTRANARY. 

3- As I and other advanced in rank, we started to use REAL knife. I remembered I and other wear Police- bullet proof VET for our own protection.

I was scared and afraid when i saw the shiny of real knife. I was wet a lot.

I and other got cut from real blade. You can see blood in our hand like the event you see UFC tournament. It was a real attack and nobody got hurt BAD

the more I did it, the more confident I were and to the point, i did not wear a police-bullet proof vet anymore.

Practice makes perfect. I guess.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't know if students from kajukenbo,nick cerios, chow system feel the same way about their knife techniques as AK students here ??????

It would be nice to hear what *other* students have to say about their knife or weaponry techniques BESIDES AK students


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 5, 2004)

Uh...in the first place, it's my understanding that a lot of vests won't stop a knife? In the second, it's not the torso I'd primarily worry about...it's the fingers, the hands, the forearms, the feet, the legs, the eyes...

Yes, I agree. A live blade is different. But also different are a) being "attacked," by a training partner, and b) being attacked for-real. There is no way of which I am aware to bridge that gap completely, because the gap has to do with intent. 

If you only got cut a little as you trained, it wasn't a real attack. And a good thing, too. 

I don't think the knife techs are impractical. I think that training in ways that are guaranteed to injure is profoundly impractical.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Uh...in the first place, it's my understanding that a lot of vests won't stop a knife? In the second, it's not the torso I'd primarily worry about...it's the fingers, the hands, the forearms, the feet, the legs, the eyes...
> 
> *


*

do you ever try to wear a bullet proof vet ??? If your bullet proof vet can stop a bullet, it sure stops a REAL knife from going through your body.

SAFETY is a real concern when practicing LIVE weaponry techniques




			Yes, I agree. A live blade is different. But also different are a) being "attacked," by a training partner, and b) being attacked for-real. There is no way of which I am aware to bridge that gap completely, because the gap has to do with intent.
		
Click to expand...


that is the reason why it is UP to you to tell your partner to be SERIOUS when he attacks you.




			If you only got cut a little as you trained, it wasn't a real attack. And a good thing, too. 

I don't think the knife techs are impractical. I think that training in ways that are guaranteed to injure is profoundly impractical.
		
Click to expand...

*
when you LEARN how to defend a REAL knife attack, 2 things are very important

1- You have to LEARN how to get cut
2- Where do you want to get CUT?

 Of course, you want to recover quickly from training WITHOUT any permanent injury from partner or you.

If you keep training with plastic knife, you will not have a confident in a REAL knife techniques.

I wish you can tell bad guy if he can exchange his REAL knife for a plastic knife


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well, already had this discussion. Train with live blades if you wish--but include me out. Why? 

Because you are going to get hurt, and it's not necessary. If you seriously attack somebody in training with  knife, and you use a live blade, somebody is going to get themselves hurt. 

They don't train with live blades in the military, as other posters have mentioned. Seems to me that realism would be a bit of a concern there.

Again, it is my understanding that Kevlar vests are designed to stop bullets, not knives. After all, it's a woven fabric...

I'm curious about why you're not still training, in this context. I'm 50 now, and I plan to be training when I'm ninety, though I doubt I'll be taking the shots I take in, say, advanced classes...


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## Cruentus (Feb 5, 2004)

I train specifically in blade oriented arts, yet I have to agree with mcrobertson.

Training live blades against a partner is dangerous and unessicaary. About half way down the thread, I explain my position here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12195&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

my 2 cents

:asian:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Well, already had this discussion. Train with live blades if you wish--but include me out. Why?
> *



it is a personal choice. I wanted to be ready for anything. Training in MA is a serious business.

what you practice in dojo will reflect your performance on the street



> Because you are going to get hurt, and it's not necessary. If you seriously attack somebody in training with  knife, and you use a live blade, somebody is going to get themselves hurt.



as i said before, SAFETY is a number 1 concern for everybody in dojo



> They don't train with live blades in the military, as other posters have mentioned. Seems to me that realism would be a bit of a concern there.



do you understand why they don't use live blades in military ???
you see military guy carry knife BUT they barely use in the battle

why??? they have gun. AIM, shoot, DROP bomb. We are winner. Quick, heh?



> Again, it is my understanding that Kevlar vests are designed to stop bullets, not knives. After all, it's a woven fabric...



your comment is really interesting. Let me put it this way. Inside the bullet proof vet, there is a thick metal.

ever try to stab on a thick metal???
if you don't know, it is OK



> *
> I'm curious about why you're not still training, in this context. I'm 50 now, and I plan to be training when I'm ninety, though I doubt I'll be taking the shots I take in, say, advanced classes... *



when you are  OLDER, you will realize a few things:

1-Learning more MA will not help you live over 100,
2-Your physical is not strong any more. If you are 60 or 70 years old, you want to practice with young and strong guy???

your back is not as good as it was a few years ago. Why try to get more injury on yourself.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 5, 2004)

First off, my understanding is that most vests don't come with a metal plate. 

Second off, sure, train like you fight. generally speaking, quite true. But for reasons already advanced, I'd argue it's nuts to train kenpo techniques with live blades--makes me wonder if this isn't a big chunk of why you're not still training. And if you'll check out the other thread on this, you'll note that at least one poster says that even military guys who used knives DID NOT TRAIN with them.

Third, sure as you get older, you lose some things. I said that. But, you can still train...you just train differently. Differently how? Sensibly, with respect to your age. 

Why does it make sense to a) train with live blades because you might be attacked with one and need practice to be prepared, b) reject what I wrote about it being unnecessary to train with sharp blades on the grounds that unless you use such blades you won't be prepared--but then turn around and say that you've quit training altogether, on the grounds that you can't do everything you could at 21?

If we're going to insist on absolute realism--and I think that's a bad idea--OK, fine. Shouldn't you be training still, on the realistic ground that you are far more likely to be attacked as an older person?

Oh, and incidentally--I'm far stronger now than I was at 30, twenty years ago. And who said anything about living forever?


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## arnisador (Feb 5, 2004)

Bulletproof vests stop bullets. A solid knife thrust will go through many of them. The physics is different in each case.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Bulletproof vests stop bullets. A solid knife thrust will go through many of them. The physics is different in each case. *



darn, we must have very good bullet proof vet by then. I didn't know where my friend got these vets BUT they were very helpful to us by then.

i thought the impact of bullet is more POWERFUL than a knife thrust???


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## parkerkarate (Feb 5, 2004)

Mr. Parker did make these techniques, but as we all know all of these techniques were based on attackers from the 60's and 70's.  As much as I would like have seen chalanges in studios and all of that good stuff. I was not born till '84. We all have to remember today is a different world.  Many of the techniques we do would probably not work without a few changes.  I would never want to get into a knife fight but if I had no other choice I would use these techniques with a few changes just to make sure they go "smoothly."


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> I'd argue it's nuts to train kenpo techniques with live blades--makes me wonder if this isn't a big chunk of why you're not still training.
> 
> *



already stated previously 



> Why does it make sense to a) train with live blades because you might be attacked with one and need practice to be prepared, b) reject what I wrote about it being unnecessary to train with sharp blades on the grounds that unless you use such blades you won't be prepared--but then turn around and say that you've quit training altogether, on the grounds that you can't do everything you could at 21?



2 things need to say

1-When i talk about knife experiences, i talk about my OLD knife practicing. Long time ago.

2-YOu want me to go back to my old training, don't you? 

   I will contact my sensei if he wants to teach me. If he decides to do that, I'll go back to my training.

I will let you know



> If we're going to insist on absolute realism--and I think that's a bad idea--OK, fine. Shouldn't you be training still, on the realistic ground that you are far more likely to be attacked as an older person?



when I am getting older, I intend to stay home more often. Of course, it leads to a little bit safer. 



> *
> Oh, and incidentally--I'm far stronger now than I was at 30, twenty years ago. And who said anything about living forever? *



we will drink for our health.


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## arnisador (Feb 5, 2004)

Knifeproof is different than bulletproof. Check out:
http://bodyarmour.safeshopper.com/1/cat1.htm?238



> Covert/concealable bullet proof or bullet and knife proof vests



http://bodyarmour.safeshopper.com/3/cat3.htm?954



> A Ballistic vest with stab proof protection thus shielding the vital kill zone from bullets,knives and sharp objects.



Stab proof is a higher level. Remember, a blade is much _thinner_ and so less pressure is required to penetrate (comparing pushing ablade through someone with your hand vs. doing the same with a bullet), but more to the point, the nature of the vests allows for the thin blade to slip between fibers in a way that a bullet, due to its size, cannot.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 5, 2004)

Arnisador, thanks. I wasn't really sure about the knife-and-vest issue, which I've only read about--sometimes in fiction. Good to have a more-knowledgeable voice.

Frankly, I'm starting to suspect that "Cool," is a bit of a phony. There're one too many inconsistencies in what he claims as his technical knowledge, one too many contradictions in some of his ideas--and one too many abrupt breaks from their, "broken English," writing style, one too many shifts from good solid English to that weird, pseudo-Zen syntax that we see so often in the collected works of Kwai Chang Kane...


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## Cruentus (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> Second off, sure, train like you fight. generally speaking, quite true. But for reasons already advanced, I'd argue it's nuts to train kenpo techniques with live blades--makes me wonder if this isn't a big chunk of why you're not still training. And if you'll check out the other thread on this, you'll note that at least one poster says that even military guys who used knives DID NOT TRAIN with them.
> 
> *



This is true. I have a copy of the current US Army Combatives Field Manual, and there is a section on knives. They specifically DO NOT recomend using live blades with partner work. Per my link above, I explained the many reasons why.

Also, I just posted a boat load of information on this thread here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12853&perpage=15&pagenumber=1


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> 
> Frankly, I'm starting to suspect that "Cool," is a bit of a phony. There're one too many inconsistencies in what he claims as his technical knowledge
> ...



let's get 1 thing straight.

I have never claimed "TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE". I only shared with you how I trained knife techniques in the past when you asked me if i see "knife techniques are impractical" (SEE "trained"?? i 'm talking about the past).

I remembered my old japanese teacher used to tell us in dojo that We have to train hard because what we were learning will be used on the street to defense ourselves in the future even though we don't want it.

The training I had was REAL and TOUGH. SAFETY was always a number 1 concern in that time.

That was the ONLY "so called technical" I talked about. I did not go into depth any knife techniques here. I ONLY emphasized the way we TRAINED.

I do not see "any TECHNICAL thing" here. I don't understand why you mentioned about "technical".???



> *
> one too many contradictions in some of his ideas
> *



can you tell me where I contradict in my posts so that we can know who is "phony" or knows what they are talking about???



> *
> --and one too many abrupt breaks from their, "broken English," writing style, one too many shifts from good solid English to that weird, pseudo-Zen syntax that we see so often in the collected works of Kwai Chang Kane... *



Sometime, i check my grammar and sometimes I don't. As long as I get my point across and state thing clearly. Using grammar correctly is not important.

this is not  a SCHOOL essay. Oh yeah, i see some of you SPELL a word INCORRECTLY but I never bother to point out or criticize them.

This is getting very interesting here. People intend to attack other with everything they got including grammar and spelling.

if you have a gut to mention about the way I write, You, perhaps, should do the same to other.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

It's not the spelling or the grammar, about which I couldn't care less. It's the abrupt shifts in "voice," in vocabularly and syntax, which make me wonder.

And as for explaining further, aren't you the guy who's been ragging on a woman named, "norma," who doesn't train yet, but wrote in to ask a couple of questions about her four-year-old's training? Am I mistaken (I'm not), or did you brag about training with far more-important people than anybody she might meet, tell her she was an uneducated moron, and generally write little gems like this:

"your attitude is UNACCEPTABLE. You walked in here and BALKED for no reason and DEMAND this and that.

I answered some of your questions, didn't I ? I am NOT sure why you said this BUT it sure reflects your poor education and character."

Aren't you the guy who just wrote that my friend Angela was full of "balony," {sic}, whose rank you couldn't remember, and that she was too scared to execute techniques?

Don't you also sign off with a little thing that asserts how cool you are, "Cool?"

That fifth or tenth (your description seems to vary) that you attack full force with the knife must be very proud of the way you've applied your martial arts training. What could I possibly write that you would respond to civilly and intelligently?

As I've taken to doing recently, I invite any reader interested to go back and check the "A Question," thread on this same forum.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *It's not the spelling or the grammar, about which I couldn't care less. It's the abrupt shifts in "voice," in vocabularly and syntax, which make me wonder.
> *



 I don't see why it is your concern. If today is a beautiful day, i will write BEAUTIFULLY.

it looks like today is not a beautiful day because of your posts. Don't expect anything nice from me EXCEPT hard and cold one.


> *
> 
> And as for explaining further, aren't you the guy who's been ragging on a woman named, "norma," who doesn't train yet, but wrote in to ask a couple of questions about her four-year-old's training? Am I mistaken (I'm not), or did you brag about training with far more-important people than anybody she might meet, tell her she was an uneducated moron, and generally write little gems like this:
> 
> ...



you obviously looked for my posts and did not read what norma SAID.

If she asked me nicely, i responsed nicely. But she did, don't expect anything nice.

you and I are really different in many way. I will tell you in the next few minutes

1- Norma was the one who told me I will have more privilleges when training with 7 degree black belt.

If you don't know anything about her statement, i suggest you go back and REREAD IT

2- When I trained with OTHER, I never tell other people who I trained with. I am a humble person and I don't consider it is BIG or I need to show up anything.

Whatever you see in "NOrma" thread, I simply responded to her statement.


If you simply read what I posted in her post, why bother to tell me this or that when you don't know what was happening.????


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 6, 2004)

Again, I think that your words--to someone who is in effect a guest, "Norma," about my buddy Angela, to me, and to others--can, and will, speak for themselves.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Again, I think that your words--to someone who is in effect a guest, "Norma," about my buddy Angela, to me, and to others--can, and will, speak for themselves. *



a few things to say here

1-If you don't like what other say, you should not be here.

2-Being a guest and being a buddy like Angela will not let you off the hook if you are NOT nice and respectful to other. Specially, if you say something STUPID and SPIN too much..

I allow you to have your opinion about my posts or me, why can't i have mine about you, your friend, Normal??????

you don't like what I write BUT never stop me from writing what I want. Period.

You are a college teacher, aren't you? You should know this better than I do.


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## Michael Billings (Feb 6, 2004)

====================
Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-


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## arnisador (Feb 21, 2004)

More on vests and knives:
http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5929


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## Gary Crawford (Feb 22, 2004)

I think the Kenpo knife techniques are all very good,but so are the ones taught by other styles.I firmly believe that ALL self-defense techniques are just ideas.In a real situation,you may start with one technique,but as the situation changes(because nobody reacts the same),you have to change and adapt with it.Learning as many techniques as possible(no matter where it comes from) will give one enough information to be able to adapt.When it comes down to real life situations,whatever works is the right technique.


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## MJS (Feb 24, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> I think the Kenpo knife techniques are all very good,but so are the ones taught by other styles.I firmly believe that ALL self-defense techniques are just ideas.In a real situation,you may start with one technique,but as the situation changes(because nobody reacts the same),you have to change and adapt with it.Learning as many techniques as possible(no matter where it comes from) will give one enough information to be able to adapt.When it comes down to real life situations,whatever works is the right technique.



Excellent point!!!!

Mike


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 27, 2004)

If you want to read what *other* think about knife techniques, look for "black belt magazine" April issue which is currently available.

i just finished reading it today at my local library


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## 8253 (Mar 1, 2004)

True2Kenpo said:
			
		

> Fellow Kenpoists,
> 
> I have been thinking a lot about the five knife techniques taught in the Kenpo System; Raining Lance, Thrusting Lance, Entwined Lance, Glancing Lance, and Piercing Lance.  I feel that the techniques offer a very valuable base to build from, however I question if they would be a practical defense for a knife attack on today's streets.
> 
> ...



You only had 5 knife techniques.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 3, 2004)

I have to agree with Joshua Ryder here, I wouldn't bet my life on these techniques.  You don't have to be all that proficient with a knife for it to be a deadly weapon, the average person has a BETTER than average shot of messing you up pretty bad simply because of the knifes intrinsic qualities.  Their isn't a whole lot of skill necessary to cut someone.  What is that Antonio Banderas says in Zorro,"What's so hard, you put the pointy end in the other man."  With the knife a little training goes a long way.  Learning to back cut (i.e. bait and cut with return motion) changes the game completely.

I don't know as much as I would like to about the knife, but I do know that controlling the elbow is key. 

As far as the Knife Techs are concerned these are my opinions.
Entwined Lance-  Might be good for a punch but definately not for a knife.

Glancing Lance- I'm not a big fan of the kick, but I tend to use the "elbow break" as a control.  You have to disable the arm with the knife.

Piercing Lance- seems good right up until you turn your back on the guy, which is the third move.  I don't like to turn my back on an unarmed opponent.  Teaching this tech seems a bit irresponsible to me.

Raining Lance-  I guess this might not be too bad, that is is if you are sidestepping and using an extended outward.  I sure as heck wouldn't put my hands up in a cross block though.  Can you say knife in the forearm.

Thrusting Lance- yeah right!!!  Why grab the guys wrist but don't make any effort to control the weapon hand.  Are you Hercules?  You only need one arm to grab and hang on without locking the joint or cancelling a zone, if so you must be a hell of alot stronger than me.

Just my thoughts.


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## Blindside (Mar 3, 2004)

I always thought it was odd that the AK knife curriculum neglected an entire category of knife attacks, namely slashing.  Some club techs can be modified, but many don't account for the nature of the knife rather than that of the club.

Just my opinion,

Lamont


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> I always thought it was odd that the AK knife curriculum neglected an entire category of knife attacks, namely slashing.  Some club techs can be modified, but many don't account for the nature of the knife rather than that of the club.  Just my opinion,  Lamont



The club techinues most often can be used as templates also for the knife.

:asian:


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## parkerkarate (Mar 3, 2004)

I have to totally agree with you there sir. For my last test I went from Entwined Lance into the extension or Obstructing te Strom with a slight modification.


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## kenpo_cory (Mar 3, 2004)

My instructor totally changed all of the knife techniques, which really peeves a lot of people. But he felt the existing techniques didnt address the return motion or back cut that kenpo yahoo mentioned effectively enough.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 3, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo:  I agree with you.  Some of the knife techniques in Form 6 are more practical than others.  I must say that the knife techniques in Form 6 are a tremendous improvement over what I learned (a pre-Form 6 version of Kenpo).  I also agree that reverse motion changes the game completely.  The knife is the most dangerous weapon to defend against at close quarters.  I think the FMA guys have a lot of really good techniques and -- dare I say it -- a little exposure at a seminar or wherever could go a long way.


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## parkerkarate (Mar 3, 2004)

The only new knife technique is Unfirling Lance what is so special about it, all it is, is Unfirling Crane pretty much? Just a question.


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## MisterMike (Mar 3, 2004)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> The only new knife technique is Unfirling Lance what is so special about it, all it is, is Unfirling Crane pretty much? Just a question.



Yea, and even as knife techniques go, you better hope he dropped it before running Unfurling Lance to completion. (Pretty much anything after the middle-knuckle)


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 4, 2004)

I've had the chance to work with a few FMA guys in the past and they seem to have a far greater understanding of the knife defenses than we do.  They have their fair share of crap just like any system, but they also have alot of good material too.  The Sayocs seem to be the big names in FMA Blade work right now.  They explore a concept that they refer to as "bad hand."  It's one of those concepts that after they explain it, you kinda go,"well duh.... why didn't I think of that?"  It was something that made me change the way I look at knife defenses completely.  Well, that and having Mr. Mills and Mr. Wheaton rip me to pieces during a knife seminar (luckily for me it was a foam trainer).  However, had it been real I would have been mince meet, because I was unable to control the blade hand, which is hard to do if you can't get to the elbow.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2004)

I have to agree with KY on that post regarding Sayoc.  I have no experience in that art, but I do know that the majority of focus is on the blade.  Then again, many of the FMA deal with the blade seeing as how that is the weapon of choice in that country.

Mike


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 5, 2004)

We were working through some knife material last night, which just seems to reaffirm my thoughts on this subject.  We played around with the idea of backcutting.  The guy with the knife tried to cut/stab you, or bait you then cut you, or both.  As a defender you tried not to get cut as much as possible.  Guess what?  The guy with the knife was able to cut the defender 80-90% of the time.  This wasn't performing a technique or defending against multiple slashes, but defending against a single out and back stroke of the arm.  After having done this, again, I stand by my prior statements that the EPAK knife techniques don't stand much of a chance, if any, against someone with even a little knowledge of how to use the blade.  Unfortunately you won't know how much they actually know until they've made their cuts, by that point you're S.O.L.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> We were working through some knife material last night, which just seems to reaffirm my thoughts on this subject.  We played around with the idea of backcutting.  The guy with the knife tried to cut/stab you, or bait you then cut you, or both.  As a defender you tried not to get cut as much as possible.  Guess what?  The guy with the knife was able to cut the defender 80-90% of the time.  This wasn't performing a technique or defending against multiple slashes, but defending against a single out and back stroke of the arm.  After having done this, again, I stand by my prior statements that the EPAK knife techniques don't stand much of a chance, if any, against someone with even a little knowledge of how to use the blade.  Unfortunately you won't know how much they actually know until they've made their cuts, by that point you're S.O.L.



Oh gosh...... hee hee... well of course you are right.  Those techniques were never intended for use against anything other than simple thrusts etc., to educate you initially to the subject of knives.  Bashing the techniques for what they were never intended is not useful.  

You now realize that and must advance to more logical maneuvers or evasions.   Did you ever hear about his book that talks about environmental objects that can be used to help defend yourself... such as taking a shoe and putting it on your hand to be used against a knife?   Sounds like a hint to me..... I don't think even he would be using any intricate hand maneuvers with a shoe on.... at least not initially..  a good bit to explore against a slightly skilled or higher knife wielding individual.  I wouldn't want to depend on Thrusting Lance against a back-cut or slash... but then again, I know better than to try.

 :asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 5, 2004)

Cool, I get the whole,"you gotta start somewhere bit" but where exactly are you supposed to go after these techniques?  I'm not sure what the more advanced level of Piercing Lance might be.  Heck in the basic level we turn our back to the attacker before we even execute a major strike.  If the attacker was baiting us to set up a backcut, we just gave him our back.  

You bring up an excellent point about environmental weapons, if I can I'll be pulling my knife or looking for a bottle or stick of sorts (heck if I'm carrying and I have enough time I'll draw the G26), but I don't see how loosing a possible means of control (i.e. a hand that can grab) will better the situation.  At least with a club or blade I can still trap if the opportunity presents itself.  Besides, if I had enough time to unlace my boots and put them on my hands I definately would have had enough time to haul @$$ out of the situation.  

What are some of the advanced applications or tools that will make these techniques work against a moderately skilled opponent (i.e. someone who is trying to slice you with the knife instead of poking you with it, or even working against a backcut)???  Was this a subject to be further considered in "To Speak with a Knife."  I heard that when Mr. Parker was working up material for this book he decided not to write the books because it was too gruesome.  

Hey any of you Pick guys out there still working these techs or are you doing something different???


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Cool, I get the whole,"you gotta start somewhere bit" but where exactly are you supposed to go after these techniques?



You go where you never have gone before........  (sounds like a TV series doesn't it.. lol)  The techniques (all techniques) are only ideas or vehicles to develop many avenues.  One initially is coordination, then some general knowledge on how to use this new found coordination, then add a dash of logic and expansion to journey into the realm of possibilities.... i.e., slashing, back-cut or any other possibilities.   Just as in life.... after so much education (high school or preferably college) one must use what they have learned (get a job in your chosen field) and put what they have studied to a functional use.  We should not stay in school forever, and just examine techniques just of the fun of it.... (multiple majors) without some goal of use.   In short, use the old noggin to develop what you now realize is needed after the basic education.

*"Progress is possible providing that Knowledgeis transferred,  Assuming that Motivation is present and Innovation takes place".*




			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what the more advanced level of Piercing Lance might be.  Heck in the basic level we turn our back to the attacker before we even execute a major strike.  If the attacker was baiting us to set up a back-cut, we just gave him our back.



Then great, we have learned something, what not to do or to examine what we can do better and safer.



			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> You bring up an excellent point about environmental weapons, if I can I'll be pulling my knife or looking for a bottle or stick of sorts (heck if I'm carrying and I have enough time I'll draw the G26), but I don't see how loosing a possible means of control (i.e. a hand that can grab) will better the situation.  At least with a club or blade I can still trap if the opportunity presents itself.  Besides, if I had enough time to unlace my boots and put them on my hands I definitely would have had enough time to haul @$$ out of the situation.



Just possible points to examine and determine if any could "ever" be used to help yourself out, this "Process" not only shows you what you COULD do but possibly part of the education is what NOT to do. 



			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> What are some of the advanced applications or tools that will make these techniques work against a moderately skilled opponent (i.e. someone who is trying to slice you with the knife instead of poking you with it, or even working against a back-cut)???



Ahhhh a journey for you yet to travel.....



			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I heard that when Mr. Parker was working up material for his book, "To Speak with a Knife."he decided not to finish writing the book, because it was too gruesome with what one could do with a knife.



Yes, as the title implies .... "Speak" with a Knife refers to YOUR usage of the Knife.   The flip side of the book would have been.... the better you know how to USE a knife... the better you can understand how to defend against one.

 :asian:


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## Blindside (Mar 5, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> If the attacker was baiting us to set up a backcut, we just gave him our back.



Kenpo Yahoo,

Could you give us your definition of "backcut?"  In knifework there is another definition that is used that refers to a a twisting thrust, usually with regard to the bowie knife.  Your backcut sounds like a cut done while returning the blade along its original path of motion.

At the AKKI House of Pain camp last year Mr. Mills demonstrated and mentioned a backcut that was similar to the bowie backcut.  Is this what you are doing?

I'm just trying to clarify what you are referring to.

Thanks,

Lamont


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 6, 2004)

Blindside,

Sorry for any confusion.  I tend to use the term backcut in a generic manner.  What I am actually referring to is a bait and cut.  When the attacker reaches out to block, pop, parry, or grab, you simply twist your arm so that the edge is facing the target (assuming your blade isn't double edged) and teardrop back to where you started.  Just like when you are working trapping drills you don't want to get so caught up in working the traps that you don't try to make the first punch or chop ( which when translated to knife becomes a thrust or a slash).  

I wish I could tell you we are or aren't doing the same thing, but I don't know what a bowie backcut is?  If you don't mind explaining..... :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Mar 6, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Blindside,
> 
> Sorry for any confusion. I tend to use the term backcut in a generic manner. What I am actually referring to is a bait and cut. When the attacker reaches out to block, pop, parry, or grab, you simply twist your arm so that the edge is facing the target (assuming your blade isn't double edged) and teardrop back to where you started. Just like when you are working trapping drills you don't want to get so caught up in working the traps that you don't try to make the first punch or chop ( which when translated to knife becomes a thrust or a slash).
> 
> I wish I could tell you we are or aren't doing the same thing, but I don't know what a bowie backcut is? If you don't mind explaining..... :asian:


 RETURNING MOTION as vs. REVERSE MOTION with a blade. I think the backcut Blindside references may be the (for a right hander) the cut from 9:00 to 3:00 following an inward cut/slice/snap cut. Realizing that this motion is so much totally smaller generally than a similar action with a club, which requires more distance to generate speed and thus power.

 I could be wrong. Good blade work is usually very subtle and coming out of motions, that typically, are continuous. There are some exceptions when you shift to Serrak and the "hidden" blade and you are using the forearm guard (buckler) to shield the blade hand.

  Never mind ... it is late and I begin to meander.

  -Michael


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## kenpo_cory (Mar 6, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Then great, we have learned something, what not to do or to examine what we can do better and safer.



So once you have learned what not to do, shouldnt you change what you practice? I mean if you know there's something there that you shouldnt be doing why practice that "wrong thing" over and over until it's ingrained? I would think it would be harder to go back and undo that wrong thing than it would be to just practice the "right way" to start with.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 6, 2004)

kenpo_cory said:
			
		

> So once you have learned what not to do, shouldnt you change what you practice? I mean if you know there's something there that you shouldnt be doing why practice that "wrong thing" over and over until it's ingrained? I would think it would be harder to go back and undo that wrong thing than it would be to just practice the "right way" to start with.



I personally, haven't found anything in *"MY"* EPAK Kenpo curriculum that pertains to what you just said yet.   If I did then yes, I would probably look at alternatives. :uhyeah:  :asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 6, 2004)

> RETURNING MOTION as vs. REVERSE MOTION with a blade. I think the backcut Blindside references may be the (for a right hander) the cut from 9:00 to 3:00 following an inward cut/slice/snap cut. Realizing that this motion is so much totally smaller generally than a similar action with a club, which requires more distance to generate speed and thus power.



We use both.  However, I'm willing to bet that we use Returning motion a whole lot more than Reverse motion.  This is mostly because double-edged knives are illegal otherwise we could just reverse our motion and cut with the backside or depending on your blade you can tear with the tip.  By rotating our arms so that we can achieve a good angle between the arm and the edge of the blade, by doing this we tend to orbit or tear drop our cuts (i.e. Returning Motion).  So when the defender reaches out to block our thrust or slash, we cut the target they give us (hand, forearm, etc).  If they don't try to block the thrust or slash then we were still able to cut or stab them, so for us it's a win-win situation.  



> I could be wrong. Good blade work is usually very subtle and coming out of motions, that typically, are continuous. There are some exceptions when you shift to Serrak and the "hidden" blade and you are using the forearm guard (buckler) to shield the blade hand.
> 
> Never mind ... it is late and I begin to meander.
> 
> -Michae



I completely agree, the guys I've seen that really know how to move the knife all seem to be very fluid and subtle.  Afterall how much power do you really need?  Let your blade do all the work.

I know this thread started off as a knife defense thread, but since most everyone I know carries a clip knife, I thought it might be cool to talk about ways in which we as kenpo practitioners can use the knife.  Whether it is a means of de-escalation, concealment, trapping, etc.?  Do any of you guys/gals out there practice a specific knife curriculum or do you adapt open hand techniques? What are some of your favorite techniques to use with a knife?


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## kenpo_cory (Mar 6, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I personally, haven't found anything in *"MY"* EPAK Kenpo curriculum that pertains to what you just said yet.   If I did then yes, I would probably look at alternatives. :uhyeah:  :asian:



I was referring to the comments made about piercing lance. 

kenpo yahoo stated. "I'm not sure what the more advanced level of Piercing Lance might be. Heck in the basic level we turn our back to the attacker before we even execute a major strike. If the attacker was baiting us to set up a back-cut, we just gave him our back."

Then you replied with. "Then great, we have learned something, what not to do or to examine what we can do better and safer."

So did you change the original piercing lance then?


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## Blindside (Mar 6, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I wish I could tell you we are or aren't doing the same thing, but I don't know what a bowie backcut is?  If you don't mind explaining..... :asian:



Explain a bowie backcut, ok easier said than done.  

The bowie is a big knife with a pronounced curve as the blade nears the tip, you are primarily cutting with that curved portion of the edge when you do this thrust.

OK, the backcut:

You are standing right foot forward, blade held in front of you, right hand, in saber grip.

Now thrust straight forward, as you reach about half of your arm extension begin rotating the blade counter-clockwise.  As you reach your full extension your pinkie and elbow should be up (vertical 12:00) and the tip of your knife angled down.

This thrust generates tremendous force, and as a result cutting potential.  This cut is often used as a counter to a thrust coming in, so you rotate your body offline of the opponents thrust and stop-cut the arm or take the opponents head.  

I hope that helps to explain what many people refer to as the backcut, at least by many members of the knife users community.

Lamont

PS:  Kenpo Yahoo, since it looks like you are an AKKI guy, Mr. Mills used a reference from Form 1 for this cut.  In the section that is like Star Block Set, when you the do elbow block, and then transition into the smother block, is the torquing action for this cut.  If you do this action with a knife in your hand and instead of smothering palm down, you thrust down, you have a very short range backcut.  Clear as mud, right?  :uhyeah:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 6, 2004)

kenpo_cory said:
			
		

> So did you change the original piercing lance then?



Nope.  I teach it as it was initially intended [like I do for the entire curriculum] for the *"ideal"* phase, *then* move into the *"what if"* phase for further exploration of variables, which then leads to being able to *"formulate"* extemporaneously.  :uhyeah:

 :asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 6, 2004)

Lamont,

Thanks for the description, I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. I didn't know it had a specific name.  What type of knife material do you work with? 



> Goldendragon
> Nope. I teach it as it was initially intended [like I do for the entire curriculum] for the "ideal" phase, then move into the "what if" phase for further exploration of variables, which then leads to being able to "formulate" extemporaneously.



So in the what if and formulation phases are you still turning your back to the opponent?


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## Blindside (Mar 6, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Thanks for the description, I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. I didn't know it had a specific name.  What type of knife material do you work with?



Primarily FMA, originally based on serrada escrima and inosanto blend kali, but more recently through James Keatings spin on knifework, but still mostly FMA based.  What I like most about the FMA knife and stickwork is that it doesn't assume your opponent is an idiot when it comes to wielding their weapon.

Lamont


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 6, 2004)

> Primarily FMA, originally based on serrada escrima and inosanto blend kali, but more recently through James Keatings spin on knifework



I don't believe I've ever heard of this individual.  Is there any reference material on the web somewhere?



> What I like most about the FMA knife and stickwork is that it doesn't assume your opponent is an idiot when it comes to wielding their weapon.
> Lamont



What a revolutionary concept..      :boing2:


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## Blindside (Mar 7, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I don't believe I've ever heard of this individual.  Is there any reference material on the web somewhere?



he has his own website at:  www.jamesakeating.com

but a better biography and two articles can be found here:

http://www.realfighting.com/0503/jkeating.html

If you ever get the chance to train with him, you should take it, he has incredible skills and more importantly he is an excellent teacher.

Lamont


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## rmcrobertson (Mar 7, 2004)

"Man," huh? 

Sexist language is just SO passe, and so are male fantasy constructions of history. 

Hate to tell y'all, but these, "Man with his atlatl vs. the mighty cave bear," pictures of the archaic past simply aren't corroborated by the archaeological evidence.

And then to extend these illusions to contemporary martial arts...oy.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 7, 2004)

> "Man," huh?
> 
> Sexist language is just SO passe, and so are male fantasy constructions of history.
> 
> ...



Way to wag the dog there Robert.  Besides not agreeing with the quote, do you have anything useful to add to the conversation?


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 8, 2004)

It's a knife trainer with marking edges, check it out.

Easy way to tell if your knife techniques work 

or you could just make your own.  Doesn't look like it would be that hard.


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## kenpo_cory (Mar 9, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> but more recently through James Keatings spin on knifework
> Lamont



My instructor used to work with him, they both used to write for Full Contact Magazine a long time ago.


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## Marcus Buonfiglio (Mar 11, 2004)

Hey any of you Pick guys out there still working these techs or are you doing something different???[/QUOTE]

Dropped in to read this thread. Interesting. To give you a short answer we are doing these techniques but they are different as is our blade work. Pick teaches a cut to kill on the offensive side. On the defensive side, the short of it is that we follow a strict sequential flow. From 12 Points and fortified engagement we, Divert, Dominate, Destroy. Always attack the attack. Dominate the primary weapon (the man) Destroy the attackers ability to wield the weapon and never let the blade get behind you (out of visual engagement). If you have any specific questions I will do my best to answer them.

Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 12, 2004)

Thanks for the response, I know that it may not be possible for you to get too specific but would you mind picking a technique and describing maybe one or two of the Major changes made to facilitate effectiveness in execution?  

In the AKKI defensive techniques (at least as I understand them at this point in my training) we seem pretty focused on controlling the elbow of the arm holding the weapon, in order to keep the attacker from being able to backcut or change angles on us to effect a stab.  Most of our checks become dynamic as we try to destroy our attackers ability to wield the weapon and/or function... period.

Do you guys practice disarms at all?  It seems that you concern yourself more with taking out the opponent than you do with disarming the knife.  This is interesting since most people view it the other way.  I know a few disarms that I would consider realistic.  Most of them involve me cutting my opponents weapon weilding hand or stripping their weapon away with my knife, but some of the disarms are empty hand vs. weapon.  What seems to be the strategy that you guys use?  Personally I would never ever ever try a disarm unless I had no other choice or unless, as I mentioned, I was using my knife to cut or strip away my opponents weapon.

What are your thoughts? 

Sorry if I'm not making any sense, I'm a little tired after working out for 3 hours tonite. Thanks again.


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## Marcus Buonfiglio (Mar 15, 2004)

Sorry that I have taken so long to answer John but I just got my computer back on line from having to format the hard drive. What a pain. I told you that I would do my best to answer your questions so here goes:



Thanks for the response, I know that it may not be possible for you to get too specific but would you mind picking a technique and describing maybe one or two of the Major changes made to facilitate effectiveness in execution? 

The major change/innovation in the way we address any technique is the development of fortified engagement (feet) and 12 points of consideration (hand/arm placement). Fortified engagement brings the mass (body) to its natural anatomical alignment allowing for mass engagement in an omni directional state. 12 points is the specific positioning of the hands in relation to the dimensions of height, width and depth in relation to outer rim domination. (Similar to a boxing hand position) To bring a specific technique into discussion Ill use Glancing Lance. It is the first technique in Form 6. As I was previously taught the technique (by John Sepulveda), you step back to 6:00 with the right foot and bring your right hand around and down (extended outward chop) on the wrist, capturing the wrist as you simultaneously executing a left palm strike in an attempt to hyperextend and/or break the elbow and control the weapon at the elbow. Right snap kick to the groin, planting with a right 2 finger eye strike while maintaining a positional check at the elbow. Hop/transition to the left foot at 10:00 (one legged stance) as the right hand circles counter clockwise, hooks and parries to again strike outside of opponents right wrist.  Executing the technique in this manor gets you cut and you relinquish control of the blade. Your reaction of an extended outward chop is circular in its execution and the blade cuts to the top of the wrist or forearm. The mass of the enemy is also not engaged and he is still able to move in multiple dimensions. Pick teaches- Fortify on the right foot (moves your centerline and aligns your weapon/hand) executing a right thrusting horizontal chop to the backside of the wrist, simultaneously attack the outside of the elbow while stepping in with the left foot to 10;30. As you step in, the left heel strike becomes a riding check as you continue your action to 12 points collapsing and checking his action with a left bracing angle check. Continuing your forward motion, execute a right thrusting ball kick to the left articulating center (left hip joint). While planting the right foot execute a right two finger eye strike. Transition to the one legged stance as you move through the transitional cat stance. (The purpose of the cat is to create rotation and alignment for the next maneuver which is..) While transitioning to the one legged stance execute a right downward hammer fist to the inside of the enemys right wrist. Since you have maintained a bracing angle check with your left arm the downward hammer creates a devastatingly effective fulcrum and lever action resulting in an inside outside break on the elbow removing from his grasp. There is no opportunity for the enemy to cut you as a result of your or his action. The blade never gets behind you. You never relinquish control of the arm. You engage his mass immediately by attacking the skeletal structure. In short you attack the attack. Divert (first move with the horizontal chop) Dominate thrusting ball kick to the skeleton, incidentally the tentacles happen to get in the way as your foot travels to kick the hip joint and get crushed against the side of the thigh) Destroy the break to the elbow and continued attack to the kill if necessary.  

"In the AKKI defensive techniques (at least as I understand them at this point in my training) we seem pretty focused on controlling the elbow of the arm holding the weapon, in order to keep the attacker from being able to backcut or change angles on us to effect a stab. Most of our checks become dynamic as we try to destroy our attackers ability to wield the weapon and/or function... period. "

Sounds good to me!


Do you guys practice disarms at all? It seems that you concern yourself more with taking out the opponent than you do with disarming the knife. This is interesting since most people view it the other way. 

Yes we do practice disarms. But understand that taking out the enemy is the same as disarming and I dont have to kill him to take him out. An unconscious enemy is, after all, a disarmed enemy.

"I know a few disarms that I would consider realistic. Most of them involve me cutting my opponents weapon weilding hand or stripping their weapon away with my knife, but some of the disarms are empty hand vs. weapon. What seems to be the strategy that you guys use? Personally I would never ever ever try a disarm unless I had no other choice or unless, as I mentioned, I was using my knife to cut or strip away my opponents weapon."

In a blade to blade confrontation if your mind set is one of disarm and his is one of kill you are in for some problems. My intent, if faced with a knife to knife confrontation is not one of defense. The paradigm shift has to take place to the killing mindset. As Mr. Pick so clearly states Bringing a self defense mind set into a knife to knife encounter fortifies the old adage of bringing a knife to a gun fight You will lose.


"Sorry if I'm not making any sense, I'm a little tired after working out for 3 hours tonite. Thanks again."

You make perfect sense. Thank you for the dialogue. I wish you and Mr. Mills continued success in your training. Hopefully we will get to meet some day. I would enjoy getting to see some of the stuff that Mr. Mills is doing and share some of what we are doing. It is always so difficult to write it out.

Regards 
Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation


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## Michael Billings (Mar 15, 2004)

Interesting Marcus.  I like all of it.  In the Professor's defense, in the IDEAL phase of the technique, what he teaches now may be similar to what you describe.  But in the last seminar I did with him, July or so '03, he never released the arm, the initial move was with the outside of the right arm (protecting the tendons and arteries), he kicked to the inside of the left groin to more effectively check width, and he retained the arm following the initial parry/break; and continued to control the arm and rebroke the elbow with the second right outward parry.  He  did contact maintenance and  controlled the arm at/above the shoulder, and his interlocking cirlcles following the eye thrust continued to control the arm.  I remember this technique specifically, because it was so similar to my 'not so ideal' phase and how I actually taught it (I alter grabs at the shoulder between my strikes, slower, but safer, and not nearly so clean looking).  

 At a high level, a lot of the Seniors (which I am not) methods of execution start to look the same, especially against weapons.  I was glad to see the weapon hand not being relinquished by Mr. Sepulveda.  I, of course, always expect Mr. Pick's weapons work to be intense and effective, as you described.  His 12 points of consideration, which you previously emailed me, and fortified engagement concepts, naturally support his knife defense and offense.  It is obviously time for me to go to another seminar with him next time he is in Texas.  

 In the meantime, since Mr. Sepulveda does not visit the Boards, I wanted  to correct any assumptions newbies may have of the Professor's execution of a weapons technique.  It is decidedly effective, and not limited to the IDEAL when executed or taught at a Brown/Black level.  In fact, since I am not a direct student of his, I do not know what he teaches now _IN THE IDEAL PHASE_, but I know what he does in advanced seminars is way cool, effective, and destroys the opponent's weapon arm, as does Mr. Pick.  Very interesting.  Your perspective on the Professor come from your many more years with him than me.  But that means I see he, and the way he executes techniques, seldom enough to really contrast what he does with what I do.  This allows me to refine the techniques as I know them.  It is different when learning with someone and seeing them all the time, I have been there and know.

Respectfully,
 -Michael


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## Marcus Buonfiglio (Mar 15, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Interesting Marcus.  I like all of it.  In the Professor's defense, in the IDEAL phase of the technique, what he teaches now may be similar to what you describe.  But in the last seminar I did with him, July or so '03, he never released the arm, the initial move was with the outside of the right arm (protecting the tendons and arteries), he kicked to the inside of the left groin to more effectively check width, and he retained the arm following the initial parry/break; and continued to control the arm and rebroke the elbow with the second right outward parry.  He  did contact maintenance and  controlled the arm at/above the shoulder, and his interlocking cirlcles following the eye thrust continued to control the arm.  I remember this technique specifically, because it was so similar to my 'not so ideal' phase and how I actually taught it (I alter grabs at the shoulder between my strikes, slower, but safer, and not nearly so clean looking).
> 
> At a high level, a lot of the Seniors (which I am not) methods of execution start to look the same, especially against weapons.  I was glad to see the weapon hand not being relinquished by Mr. Sepulveda.  I, of course, always expect Mr. Pick's weapons work to be intense and effective, as you described.  His 12 points of consideration, which you previously emailed me, and fortified engagement concepts, naturally support his knife defense and offense.  It is obviously time for me to go to another seminar with him next time he is in Texas.
> 
> ...


Good reply Michael. To clarify something for the readers of this exchange. The way that I was taught this techneque by John Sepulveda was the way that he was doing it in 1993 which was the way it was written in the manual. It certainly was not meant to shed a bad light on John Sepulveda's understanding or execution. Thank you Michael for showing how it is currently done by him. As far as a attending a seminar with Mr. Pick in Texas, he will be conducting a seminar there (in El Paseo) sometime in October (I believe). I will be attending and would enjoy seeing you if you can make it. It would be nice to exchange some of this material in person rather than in cyber space. I'll keep you updated. If I may, a small spelling correction on my previous post. "incidentally the tentacles happen to get in the way..and are crushed against the thigh" It should read..testicles :btg:  :lol: 

Regards
Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation


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## Michael Billings (Mar 15, 2004)

Unless of course they have  ... 


> " the tentacles happen to get in the way..and are crushed against the thigh" It should read..testicles
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks Marcus, I bet you did not know that El Paso is almost 12 hours from Austin?  I might be able to finangle something with my new job, since I do travel a bit more.  

 Have a great Kenpo Day as Clyde would say,
 -Michael


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 10, 2004)

From one with minimal knowledge of Kenpo, for which I apologize:

Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??

Just curious to hear what y'all have to say........ :asian:


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jul 10, 2004)

Stick Dummy said:
			
		

> From one with minimal knowledge of Kenpo, for which I apologize:
> 
> Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??
> 
> Just curious to hear what y'all have to say........ :asian:


Without a doubt.

DarK LorD


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 10, 2004)

Stick Dummy said:
			
		

> Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??



 :whip:    :uhyeah:  L.C. is one of the most versatile techniques in our system. I have covered between 80 - 90 of our techniques through seminars with Mr. Planas and almost every tech. covered somehow he managed to link "x" technique to L.C.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 10, 2004)

In my Training with Trevor Haines ( Five Animal Kenpo) one of the best defensive movements aganist Knife attacks is the use of Crane Movements. 

From my training as a Sheriff Deputy ( too let you know how dangerous Edged weapons are) they require/teach you. Use of lethal force is allowed at this distance.10 feet plus the length of the edged weapon. This is with Tasers and Firearms.

Knife fighting takes a lot of practice and you will get cut that is a fact. That is why practicing the cuts and blocks with a little bit of pain with those movements allows your mind to accept the cut without going into shock.

I remember watching in the academy a few videos on real fights with edged weapons. One was in a Correctional Center. The man died in 45 seconds the whole fight lasted that long.

The other one was veiwing "Surviving Edged Weapons" for those in Law Enforcement I am sure you viewed this at the Academey.


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## Bill Lear (Jul 13, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Knife fighting takes a lot of practice and you will get cut that is a fact.



When I'm involved in a situation, especially one involving a knife, I don't go into it just accepting that I'm going to get cut. Accepting that is ludicrus. I was a bouncer for three years at a nightclub not to far from here, and I had to defend myself from a knife attack my very first night on the job. He went to jail and I *DIDN'T* get cut.



			
				Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> That is why practicing the cuts and blocks with a little bit of pain with those movements allows your mind to accept the cut without going into shock.



Going into shock from a cut isn't caused from pain... If you're cut in a fight, you might not even know it... The adrenal dump from just getting into the altercation might keep you from feeling the pain from a cut or stab for a little while. 

Medical Fact: You will go into shock from loosing blood!!!


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## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT (Jul 13, 2004)

i feel the techs that are taught are very effective in our kempo system. we put our students and ourselves(instructors) through real situations with either chalk or the knives that use chalk to mark your opponent. its alot of fun i must say and definately educational. love this stuff :jedi1:


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## MisterMike (Jul 13, 2004)

As for as EPAK, I think there are only 4 knife techniques:

Piercing Lance
Raining Lance
Thrusting Lance
Entwined Lance

That's 4 knife attacks in the whole system. That alone should tell you it is not Kenpo's specialty. I've found most Kenpo schools cross-train with someone in another style before adding any more.

The attacks in those 4 techniques are simplistic and open and I do not feel they represent an experienced knife attacker.

As for empty hand attacks, Kenpo always assumes the attacker knows how to fight. That's why the system is as good as it is. I just don't feel the same for the knife techniques.

I will say that once you gain control of the knife wielding attacker, Kenpo has a lot of options in it. But it's that first part...

My $.02  :asian:


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## Brian Jones (Jul 13, 2004)

Not to nit pick but you forgot Glancing Lance.  And remember, its not necessarily the number of techinques as it is the soundness of the concepts and princples behind the technique.

Brian Jones


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 13, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> As for as EPAK, I think there are only 4 knife  techniques:
> Piercing Lance
> Raining Lance
> Thrusting Lance
> Entwined  Lance


 Aaaaaaa.......... you forgot Glancing Lance  !



			
				MisterMike said:
			
		

> That's 4 knife attacks in the whole system. That  alone should tell you it is not Kenpo's specialty.


 Again, a  correct number is 5 not 4, but where does the number of techniques in any given  category qualify what any systems specialty is?



			
				MisterMike said:
			
		

> The  attacks in those 4 techniques are simplistic and open and I do not feel they  represent an experienced knife attacker.


 Corrected to 5, yes  I agree, they are basic examples, drills or ideas to begin with, as in many of  the other techniques of our system, designed to be a *point of reference*  to *build upon* as ones *skills and knowledge* of the system  increases.  Did you not learn this .... somehow?



			
				MisterMike said:
			
		

> As  for empty hand attacks, Kenpo always assumes the attacker knows how to  fight.


 Sorry to disagree with you again, but you are most  certainly misinformed as to what the techniques {_*ALWAYS*_}  *"ASSUMES" *(as you say), were designed for by the founder.  Anyone that  was close to Ed Parker knows that he never used the words always or  assumes in regard to what his techniques were designed for, he was much  too clever and knowledgeable for that.



			
				MisterMike said:
			
		

> I will say  that once you gain control of the knife wielding attacker, Kenpo has a lot of  options in it.


 yes, we in AK refer to this as "variable  expansions".



			
				MisterMike said:
			
		

> My $.02


 ok, I'll  agree with you on this.


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## psi_radar (Jul 13, 2004)

Sorry if this was mentioned already (haven't gone through the entire thread), but other Kenpo techniques can easily be adapted to knife defense. Returning the Storm is one of my favorite knife defenses, even though it's based on a club attack.


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## MisterMike (Jul 14, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> ... but where does the number of techniques in any given  category qualify what any systems specialty is?


 
Are TKD students qualified grapplers? Probably not. Why would 5 knife techniques make Kenpo a knife art?

While the principles of Divert, Seize, Control, and Disarm" exist, I'm not satisfied with the attacks taught in those techniques.



			
				Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Corrected to 5, yes  I agree, they are basic examples, drills or ideas to begin with, as in many of  the other techniques of our system, designed to be a *point of reference*  to *build upon* as ones *skills and knowledge* of the system  increases.  Did you not learn this .... somehow?


 
Yes, to begin with, so they are beginner techniques. 



			
				Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Sorry to disagree with you again, but you are most  certainly misinformed as to what the techniques {_*ALWAYS*_}  *"ASSUMES" *(as you say), were designed for by the founder.  Anyone that  was close to Ed Parker knows that he never used the words always or  assumes in regard to what his techniques were designed for, he was much  too clever and knowledgeable for that.



I have to disagree. Kenpo is paraded as an evolving system originally deisnged to handle the advancements of street fighters and other skilled combatants. Not one designed to pick on the inexperienced or the drunk.

I think this is clear in the empty hand techniques, but then you have 5 knife techniqes that are all based on lunges. Not what I would call attacks from an experienced knife fighter. This is not to say the system has not or cannot be adapted, but "by the book" the attacks are not 100% practical. That's my only point in this.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 14, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> I think this is clear in the empty hand techniques, but then you have 5 knife techniqes that are all based on lunges. Not what I would call attacks from an experienced knife fighter. This is not to say the system has not or cannot be adapted, but "by the book" the attacks are not 100% practical. That's my only point in this.


Mr Mike,
I've had the same question in my mind concerning these techniques for awhile.  Last year at the Kenpo Karate Internationals in Boston I took a seminar on defending against knife attacks (I apologize for not remembering the presenters name, maybe someone else remembers) and after watching him present for a few minutes I asked that very question concerning practicality.  He showed me why those defenses were not practical.  We went through a couple of them.  According to him, (and he had knife fighting combat experience) most people will not attack with a knife using a lunge.  He did however show that the ideas in the Kenpo knife defenses could be utilized but not as your initial defense.  

MJ  :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 14, 2004)

Fiddlesticks.

First off, the five basic knife techniques in kenpo are not all designed against lunges. Raining Lance, in its ideal form, works against an overhand attempt to stick a knife through the top of your head. (And if you think this doesn't happen, I suggest looking up the X-ray of the guy with the ten-inch bowie through the skull.) Thrusting Lance works by inviting a lunge. Entwined Lance runs against a high stab or slash at eye-level. Glancing Lance is indeed, in ideal form, against a lunge. Piercing? Another way of inviting a lunge, after an opponent's tried something else.

Second off, the techniques do in fact work--as well as anything will work, practiced on a mat of some sort, in what we jokingly call, "real life." If instructors are simply explaining why they won't, you need to find a competent instructor. Of course, it's quite legit for instructors to explain what can go wrong, or what counters might appear for a given technique.

Third. Hey, I've got a question. Which techniques in kenpo CAN'T be used against a knife? After all, the basic logic of all the empty-hand arts is hands first, weapons second.

Fourth. Sorry, but the fantasy of taking on experienced knife-fighters with bare hands--or with a knife, for that matter--is ridiculous and extremely dangerous. As far as I know, you better HOPE the guy lunges, or get him to lunge. Because standing there like Steven Seagal trading swipes and parries...sorry, it's not fencing. 

"Knife fighting combat experience," my foot. Unless, of course, his hands and arms were pretty scarred up.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 14, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Fiddlesticks.


  Fiddlesticks is a good game,  but will you please agree to play it nicely with me?    Now, for one thing, I can agree that Raining Lance in it's ideal form is against an an overhead attack. Also Entwined Lance...  and yes in their "ideal form" yes they all work.... I can even imagine that x-rays may prove your point on a knife to the head as in RL.  

Maybe I should leave Kenpo out of this for a minute, and say that we were shown that a knife attacker will sometimes come in slashing with a knife as in more of a figure eight as opposed to lunging or downward thrusting.  Ok so let's bring Kenpo back in and practice defending against a knife that is slashing with a Kenpo technique.  Remembering that I am here to play Fiddlesticks fairly with you I would love some Kenpo technique ideas to combat this type of attack. :asian:   



> Third. Hey, I've got a question. Which techniques in kenpo CAN'T be used against a knife? After all, the basic logic of all the empty-hand arts is hands first, weapons second.


 You now really have my attention :asian: If you are interested work the above scenario and bring back an existing defense for a slashing knife. :asian: 


I am curious though why you are unable to even entertain the thought that someone might have learned something valuable and perhaps more practical in actual combat than what is taught in Kenpo....

I didn't need to see him arms, his eyes  told the whole story!  _This man had played in the big league._ Maybe I can find his name for you.


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## psi_radar (Jul 14, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Maybe I should leave Kenpo out of this for a minute, and say that we were shown that a knife attacker will sometimes come in slashing with a knife as in more of a figure eight as opposed to lunging or downward thrusting.
> 
> You now really have my attention :asian: If you are interested work the above scenario and bring back an existing defense for a slashing knife. :asian:



MJ, as I said above, Returning the Storm is actually my favorite knife technique. That's because it does work against the figure-eight slash. It has to be in a little tighter because the attacking weapon is shorter than a club (unless it's a sword or machete), but it works. Give it a try. 

I'll shoot you a PM as well.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 14, 2004)

Mister Conatser

& "MisterMike"

Back to my original inane question :

 "_Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique_??"


I'm curious what types of knife attacks it may work against?
Slash?
Thrust?
Stab?


Thank You for your responses 
:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 15, 2004)

Stick Dummy said:
			
		

> Mister Conatser" Back to my original inane question :
> "_Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique_??"
> I'm curious what types of knife attacks it may work against?
> Slash?
> ...


 Of course!

 %-}


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## MJS (Jul 15, 2004)

Stick Dummy said:
			
		

> Back to my original inane question :
> 
> "_Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique_??"



Yes.  With some slight modification.  Not to get off the track here, but I've had this similar discussion with DKL, and various Kenpo techs. that can be applied while grappling.  I'm happy to say that I've had success with a few of them while in the mount position.  Again, with a slight mod.

Mike


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## MisterMike (Jul 15, 2004)

Stick Dummy said:
			
		

> Mister Conatser
> 
> & "MisterMike"
> 
> ...



Yes, with some mods according to the knife disarm principles I quoted above.

Divert, Seize, Control, and Disarm.


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## Kenpo Mama (Jul 15, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I didn't need to see him arms, his eyes  told the whole story!  _This man had played in the big league._ Maybe I can find his name for you.



MJ - His name is Tom Sotis.  I too attended a seminar with him, pretty cool dude!   

And I do agree with PSI Radar that Returning the Storm is an excellent tech to run as a defense against a figure eight slashing knife.  

Peace 

Donna  %-}


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 15, 2004)

Kenpo Mama said:
			
		

> MJ - His name is Tom Sotis. I too attended a seminar with him, pretty cool dude!
> 
> And I do agree with PSI Radar that Returning the Storm is an excellent tech to run as a defense against a figure eight slashing knife.
> 
> ...


 ...Thanks Donna... Here's a bio from a recent seminar he gave:

*AMOK! Knifefighting Course JUNE 26-27, 2004 Los Angeles, CA* 
AMOK! Knifefighting Course 

Train in the Combat-Proven AMOK! Knife Method
JUNE 26-27, 2004 Los Angeles, CA

Professor Tom Sotis will be in Los Angeles, CA in June 2004. Tom Sotis is widely regarded as one of the most influential knife trainers in the world today. Having taught knife seminars in 20 countries, his proven reputation and method of combat, aptly called AMOK!, has earned global respect.

Sotis hard-earned his proven reputation within the world's Special Ops communities and regularly trains military operators and government agents in some of the most dangerous countries and war zones in the world.

Today, Sotis stands as one of the finest combative instructors in the world, and through a decade of extensive interaction with military operators, AMOK! has evolved into an ultra-functional methodology based on the efficient parameters demanded of military combatives. AMOK! is a highly functional system of knife combat that has been simplified for the realities of combat, and the needs of the modern american student who does not have an unlimited amount of training/learning time. This stuff is truly combat proven!!


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 16, 2004)

Thanks for the Pay Preview Channel endorsements. I thought we were talking Kenpo knife techniques here...........

:barf:

:barf:

:barf:


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 16, 2004)

Stick Dummy said:
			
		

> Thanks for the Pay Preview Channel endorsements. I thought we were talking Kenpo knife techniques here...........
> 
> :barf:
> 
> ...


:supcool: Made a guy vomit ...I never touched him I swear!!!:rofl:


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## pete (Jul 16, 2004)

ok... looking at the ideas raised in this thread as someone without any real life knife combat life-and-death situational experience, take this as you will..

1. the 5 knife techniques in the kenpo system work fine on the mat against the attacks for which they were designed.
2. some knife attacks must be done in this manner, or Ed Parker wouldn't have developed them 
3. other knife attacks are possible beyond those we are trained to defend.

4. #'s 1-3 could also be said for empty hand attacks, clubs, other weapons, or ground fighting (no, not going there... but bear with me).

5. other techniques in the system can be used to defend against knife attacks
6. therefore, other techniques in the system can be used to defend against different empty-handed attacks,ground fighting, etc.

-- whoa, here is where i stop and think... aren't our techniques specifically designed to achieve positional advantage based on the attack?  wouldn't changing the attack (knife or not) require a change to the technique or risk the losing that positional advantage? wouldn't changing the weapon from empty hand, to blunt object, to a bladed weapon alter the zones of sanctuary.

so.. again as no expert in the area of knive fighting, i'd be a bit leary of randomly selecting other techniques to apply against a knife attack, but will admit that the 2 techniques mentioned (returning storm and leaping crane) may have potential... but how to alter them?   

i see leaping crane putting you in a similar position as glancing lance, so i guess you can graft into the end of GL after you knife kick the back of his knee...but what advantage does this give you over simply doing GL from the start?  at least there you have the ability to disarm him???

returning storm seems to work well if you catch the figure eight on the upswing... and seems to work well if i was the knife fighter... but couldn't one skilled with a knife be more evasive than a club in this pattern?  wouldn't entwined lance also work if you were able to time it as such?

no, until we have techniques that are designed and developed specifically for a bladed weapon attack, i'll stick with the 5 in the system... there can always be gaps, i guess i've accepted that... what about a guy with 2 knives, or a samurai sword (yeah, the kenpo mama saw one wielded on a NYC subway a few years back)

pete


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## psi_radar (Jul 16, 2004)

Hi Pete,

One thing you might notice about Glancing Lance as compared to Leaping Crane is that it includes deliberate checks to the weapon arm. The knife at close range is an incredibly dynamic and FAST weapon. If you do Leaping Crane on a knife wielder, there's a lot of opportunity for them to rotate and bring that weapon around and gouge you while you're finishing up, since the arm is not directly controlled. If I were to attempt the technique, I'd delete a few of moves and add a suffix:

1) Parry

2) Knuckle strike

3) RUN!!!!!


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## psi_radar (Jul 16, 2004)

Pete,

I misinterpreted your post. These are the inherent dangers of surfing and working at the same time.


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## psi_radar (Jul 16, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> :supcool: Made a guy vomit ...I never touched him I swear!!!:rofl:



Wow, Dillman never showed me those pressure points!


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## parkerkarate (Jul 18, 2004)

Glancing lance my man, second part of the technique, one legged stance stance, just like Leaping Crane


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## Karazenpo (Jul 19, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> I did with my 5 degree black belt teacher . Oh yeah, he pulled out a REAL knife and told me to stab him with FULL POWER AND SPEED.
> 
> it was DONE in front of basketball field. I was nervous at first. My initial response was " I have a future waiting ".
> 
> ...



CoolKempoDude, in all due respect and I mean that, if your instructor gives people real knives and tells them to come at him with full committment then he is an 'imbecile'. I'll leave it at that. As far as knife techniques, the vast majority of systems out there do not teach realistic knife techniques and the answer is simple-there aren't any. Knife defense should be taught on concept alone and not on any specific by-the-numbers techqnique which tend to build a 'false sense of security'. The Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson-Police Street Survival Seminars) put together five years of research from police files of survivors and fatalities of knife attacks both police and civillian, trained and untrained. There conclusion was that those who survived did do by immobilizing the knife-weilding limb. That's it! Whatever you have to do to immobilize that limb can save your life and there's a 90 per cent or better chance you'll be cut doing it. Most of what I've seen in all systems is totally impractical and I bring this opinion to you with over 27 years of experience in law enforcement. I know some can honestly relate true stories on such and such a technique working in a real life encounter but hell, a jump front ball kick could work with some luck but that wouldn't make it a knife defense per se.  Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras


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