# Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu



## Mon Mon (Dec 27, 2002)

What do you guys think of this art i know it is international because they have dojo's all over the world. The interesting thing about the bujinkan is all of the grapling and striking techniques are variations of the Kihon Happo comprised of 8 basic techniques. The Bujinkan also has one of the best Ukemi Systems(falling systems) i have ever it seen. It has Rolls, Dive Rolls, Cart Wheels, Leaping ect... I also love the stick fighting concept because you move your hands along with the weapon in a very fluid fashion rather than keep your hands in the same place on the weapon. 



            I love this art so much i guess because it leaves room for you to be creative by comming up with your own variations, this eventually leads to forgeting all your forms and you become formless.


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## Matt Stone (Dec 27, 2002)

I will probably get a bunch of ninja knocking at my door for saying this, but I wasn't to impressed with my experiences with the Booj... 

When I was in Japan, I went to a Bujinkan dojo, headed by some 10th dan.  The class was held in a high school gym.  When I was watching the class, I saw what appeared to be a bunch of businessmen, some younger student age men, and a few women, trying really hard to be ninjas but not doing too good a job of it...  

Their evasion of strikes drills resulted less in getting them out of the way, and more putting them off balance.  Their strikes were weak, poorly focused, and often left their bodies vulnerable to additional attacks from the bad guy.

I have heard that Hatsumi is amazing.  I don't doubt that.  I have heard that many of his senior people are amazing as well.  I'll take that on the word of the folks I know who have dealt/met/trained with them.  However, given the skills displayed by the folks I have seen personally, I have yet to be too impressed.

Sorry!  I hope I didn't offend...  Just giving my honest opinion...  I leave the door open to be proven wrong, it's just that I have yet to see anything that looked anything beyond sloppy, free form, do what you want kind of techniques.

I will admit to a certain fascination with the Bujinkan, however, and I would love to have the time to train with them to find out first hand whether my observations were factual or just flukes.

But ultimately, this is the *Internal* arts forum, no the *International* arts forum...    Not sure that Bujinkan Taijutsu belongs or doesn't.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Mon Mon (Dec 28, 2002)

Beware because the ninja are comming to get you now:ninja: :boing2: 


But seriously thank you for your opinion i love what i do and see how it could work but it takes a VERY long time to make it work


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## Matt Stone (Dec 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mon Mon _
> *But seriously thank you for your opinion i love what i do and see how it could work but it takes a VERY long time to make it work *



If it takes so long, it seems like studying other things first would be a good idea...


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## Mon Mon (Dec 28, 2002)

It helps you in more than just self defence it helps make you a person


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## Matt Stone (Dec 28, 2002)

Well, _all_ martial arts are supposed to have that as a side benefit.  However, for all the argument about Bujinkan/Genbukan/X-kan/ninjutsu effectiveness, it seems odd that you would say it would take such a long time to develop any ability to use it...

The folks I watched in Japan were wearing black belts...  though I don't believe I know squat about how the Bujinkan handles their inner workings, I guess I would expect better from "ninja" black belts...

I trained with someone who claimed shodan in Bujinkan Taijutsu, and was wholly unimpressed with his abilities.  In his defense, he hadn't been training actively in some time, but still...  

Glad you found something you enjoy.  Given that most MAists never, ever use their arts, whether you are a killing machine or not is not really the issue.  Enjoying your practice is far more important.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Mon Mon (Dec 28, 2002)

well it really depends on how long you train and it has something to do with the purity of your heart. I do not study at a dojo because there are none in my area so i don't know much about the inner workings. Also Taijutsu is not concerned about winning but surviving.


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## Matt Stone (Dec 28, 2002)

In empty handed combat, the only difference between winning and surviving is sticking around...

If you engage your opponent in combat, you are going to have to either beat him, or disengage and run away...  One is winning, one is simply surviving.

That is my point - their ability to "win" looked like they should work on their sprints... 

If there are no schools in your area, how do you train in Bujinkan techniques?


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## Mon Mon (Dec 29, 2002)

Thats just it Surviving is the most important thing about taijutsu not winning. I study Bujinkan through videos and satalite group(group that follows a regular bujinkan dojo). In the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu there is a saying "run away flee untill the very end." The ninja were great warriors. They belevied in surviving not winning. I would much rather run away than fight.


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## Matt Stone (Dec 29, 2002)

It was my understanding that the ninja were not historically confrontational with their enemies (i.e. samurai or other retainers), given the nature of their enemies' training (far superior to the ninja's).  They made use of subterfuge and "dirty tricks" to confound and confuse their opponents so they could make good their escape...

Not much to suggest they were very good at empty handed fighting whatsoever.

It is also my understanding from reading Bujinkan websites that their actual HTH methods appear to be drawn more from inherent jujutsu and weapon arts than from ninjutsu training...

Whatever!   To each their own.  When I return to Japan next year for vacation, I am hoping to get around to going to the Hombu dojo to meet Hatsumi in person.  Not sure if I will train, but I sure would like to meet the guy face to face...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## moromoro (Mar 31, 2003)

i dont like the fact that the bujinkan is the quickest art in which one can recieve a 10th dan also there should be more realism put in to taijutsu training


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## moromoro (Mar 31, 2003)

also why is this thread in the internal arts forum shouldn't it be in the ninjutsu forum?


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## arnisador (Sep 11, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Deaf (Sep 12, 2003)

Hmmm, this is interesting.

In response to Yilquan1's comments on unimpressed...there are some good practicioners and some bad practicioners.  I think that is in all arts really.  I like the fact that you don't base your entire opinion of the Bujinkan on one incident that you had.  And I sincerely hope that you do get the chance to go to the Hombu and see how the training is there.  

Unfortunately the internal workings of the Bujinkan is basically like a coin...because Hatsumi Sensei gives the Shidoshi free reign on how to teach because basically everyone's interpretation of what is happening is different.  So on one side of the coin, you see a lot of poor quality taijutsu in the works but then on the flip side, you see a lot of amazing taijutsu from others.

And yes you are correct, Hatsumi Sensei has mainly been focusing on more of the other non-ninjutsu ryu for awhile.  I believe he has mentioned that people really just are not ready for the ninjutsu based ryu, but don't quote me on that.

Mon Mon,

In the Togakure Ryu, the main emphasis is survial.   I don't know about the other ryu since I have not really had the opportunity to train in them specifically.  But I do know that we train to win when confronted.  Togakure is very frimly rooted in nature and killing is actually frowned upon since it is unnatural...hence if the chance to run is shown..then run it will be.

I strongly suggest if you can get the opportunity to train with a group or go to a seminar then make the effort to do so.  Training form just videos and books, you are missing ALOT.  Hatsumi Sensei sums it up pretty good with this quote.



> "You can only understand if you've had the technique done to
> you. It's like food. You can't describe the taste, but if you've
> tasted it, you know what it is. You have to personally
> experience it to understand."
> - Masaaki Hatsumi




Thanks for a great thread guys!


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## Jay Bell (Sep 12, 2003)

Hey Tim,

Try not to get too wrapped up in the "ninja/ninjutsu" thing in the Bujinkan.  We do not study Ninjutsu...we are not ninja.  A lot of people put a lot of emphasis on the whole ninja thing...but I think this does a great deal of "damage" to the practitioner.  It gives them the idea that this is how Ninja used to operate, etc.

Rather...I'd pay closer attention to hiding intention and abilities until they were meant and needed to be used.

The Bujinkan is a wonderful place.  With good transmission, it will help you in every aspect of your life.  With poor transmission though, it can be a very long road ahead.


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## Greg Chapman (Oct 17, 2003)

Hi,

I agree with Jay here, the bujinkan is a system made from 3 ninja schools and 6 Samurai schools but we dont actually practise been a ninja, i have some shuriken, that does not make me a ninja, i am a martial practicioner in the Bujinkan and the purer the strain of teacher the better the student.


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## Jay Bell (Oct 17, 2003)

> the bujinkan is a system made from 3 ninja schools and 6 Samurai



No...it's not.  I wish whoever came up with that "short cut to understanding" bit was taking outside and beaten.

Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu have plenty of Ninpo in them.  They were created, trained and used by Ninja families.  This would make the above statement false.


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## Greg Chapman (Oct 20, 2003)

Gyokko is a ninja school but Koto is a samurai school, the other two ninja ones are Kumogakure and Togakure, and yes, as per Hatsumi and the other seniors in the uk, the others are classical Samurai school.


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## Kreth (Oct 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Greg Chapman _
> *Gyokko is a ninja school but Koto is a samurai school, the other two ninja ones are Kumogakure and Togakure, and yes, as per Hatsumi and the other seniors in the uk, the others are classical Samurai school. *


You might want to check your sources again. Gyokko and Koto both have ties to Momochi Sandayu.

Jeff


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## Jay Bell (Oct 20, 2003)

> Gyokko is a ninja school but Koto is a samurai school, the other two ninja ones are Kumogakure and Togakure, and yes, as per Hatsumi and the other seniors in the uk, the others are classical Samurai school.



This is incorrect.  Please do not use Hatsumi sensei or other seniors in the UK as reference points when your information is wrong.

Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu, at one time, were part of the same school.  As Jeff suggested, you might want to check your sources.


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## heretic888 (Oct 20, 2003)

> Rather...I'd pay closer attention to hiding intention and abilities until they were meant and needed to be used.\



Seems to me, Jay, that what you described there is a lot closer to what constitutes a "ninja" than, oh say, sneaking around in black pajamas, stalking people, and declaring to the world your ninjutsu-ness.

This, of course, is just my opinion.


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## Jay Bell (Oct 20, 2003)

*chuckle*  Of course it is....but if I say the word "Ninja"....what typically comes to someone's mind?

The wrong thing.


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## stephen (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> **chuckle*  Of course it is....but if I say the word "Ninja"....what typically comes to someone's mind?
> 
> The wrong thing. *



Or is it the right thing? 

Kyojitsu tenkan ho.  

-Steve


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## Jay Bell (Oct 21, 2003)

Karate in black ninja suits with straight swords that have square tsuka...


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## stephen (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Karate in black ninja suits with straight swords that have square tsuka... *



Fine with me, keeps the nutty ones easily recognizable. I don't care to train with people that don't do their homework anyway. 

-Steve


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## Greg Chapman (Oct 21, 2003)

no offence guy's but my teachers one of our country best even to the point that the yanks invite him to teach 3 times over there, he is an archaeologist & a historian and has written the book, so i think i will go with what he tells me, not what you guys think, you may need to check your sources, if you check the sanmyaku or the hiden then i will let you come and say sorry.


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## Kreth (Oct 21, 2003)

Whoops, got my threads confused... my reply is here.

Jeff


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## heretic888 (Oct 21, 2003)

> Karate in black ninja suits with straight swords that have square tsuka...



*gasp* Beware the dreaded tengu sword!! Heh.  



> no offence guy's but my teachers one of our country best even to the point that the yanks invite him to teach 3 times over there, he is an archaeologist & a historian and has written the book, so i think i will go with what he tells me, not what you guys think, you may need to check your sources, if you check the sanmyaku or the hiden then i will let you come and say sorry.



Sorry you're having trouble dealing with this, Greg.

Gyokko ryu contains the Ninja no Kissoku, strong elements of Ninpo, comes from Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu, was "founded" by an Iga-den leader, inherited by Momochi Sandayu, and is one of the primary bases for Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu.

Koto ryu was originally the same school as Gyokko ryu, until they were formally "split" in the 16th century by Sakagami Kunishige. This is when most people date the "founding" of Koto ryu. This information comes from Manaka, whom I'd say most would agree is a fairly well-informed source. Koto ryu, like Gyokko ryu, was inherited by Momochi Sandayu and also forms one of the primary bases for Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu.

Kukishinden Happo Hikenjutsu is traced to the 12th century with Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru, along with Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu. Yoshiteru was reputedly a student of Hakuun-ryu Ninjutsu's Garyu Doshi (also an Iga-den leader). The ryuha does not have its roots with as a "naval school", but rather as a battlefield school.

Just me thoughts, aye.


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## Jay Bell (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Greg Chapman _
> *no offence guy's but my teachers one of our country best even to the point that the yanks invite him to teach 3 times over there, he is an archaeologist & a historian and has written the book, so i think i will go with what he tells me, not what you guys think, you may need to check your sources, if you check the sanmyaku or the hiden then i will let you come and say sorry. *



*pats you on the head*  Your teacher being one of your country's best is highly debatable.

As Jeff pointed out, there are a lot of people that _do_ know that say that Paul's book has many flaws.  

By the way...do you read Japanese to be able to read Hiden?


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## Greg Chapman (Oct 22, 2003)

yes i do as it happen, fluently.


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