# helping with the "kali" issue



## thekuntawman (Jun 13, 2003)

take a look at what moromoro said, which i got from deluxeforums,



> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *
> As kuntawman has stated its not about the name you can call it KALI all you want thats cool....
> 
> ...



i think that when dan inosanto realized the information he was givng, such as his dumug, kinomutai and the "kali" story, he should have been man enough to admit that this was a mistake. instead, he continues to tell and allow others to tell the unknowing the false informations.

what many filipinos complain about IS NOT the use of "kali" like i said i use it too especialy for advertising. "kali" is my son's nickname (for abdul khaliq) even, but i still tell people the real story behind Kali, especially when they come to me to learn it. what gets many people upset is to create a false history behind the name, and mislead people about your own art, which may originally be arnis or eskrima. and yes, i know filipinos in the philippines still do it, and i dont like it either when they do it. 

i consider him an expert in the philippine fighting arts for ability and technique, but NOT philosophy culture and history. and i must say how disappointed i am that he does not wish to set the records straight, that he is not interested to go to the philippines, and that he sticks to the quick certification teaching methods. 

but still, as i criticize him, as i said many times, he was one of my first martial arts hero, and my first philippine martial arts hero. :asian: :asian:


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## krys (Jun 14, 2003)

QUOTE]
THIS IS THE PROBLEM..... Lucky this doesnt exist in the philippines but it is rampant in america thats to our good pal a JKD master
with all due respect he should do something to correct this... 
[/QUOTE] 

Saddly it also exists in the Philippines.....
How many times did I hear the myth that lapulapu defeated Magellan in a duel using escrima or kali .....

Even heard on another forum (escrima digest, some time ago) a  local escrimador say this JKD master should come to the islands and  give seminars in order to promote our diying arts.... 


Actually many pinoys prefer foreign arts to filipino arts.... Aikido is for many the ultimate art (they even teach it to GMAs presidential guard), and now bjj is really in...


Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.


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## The 14th Style (Jun 14, 2003)

> i consider him an expert in the philippine fighting arts for ability and technique, but NOT philosophy culture and history. and i must say how disappointed i am that he does not wish to set the records straight



Do you think it might be possible that he truly believes that his information is correct? If the old men (as my instructor calls them) told him this was how it was, perhaps this is what he truly believes. Not saying who is right, just wondering about his point of view. 

 I have also heard the stories about Kali being the mother art and Eskrima and Arnis flowing from it.  As I trained with my Instructor, he used a term called "generic Kali" a term he used to describe some counters in which we zoned away from the target. 
 There is also a Style taught here in New Mexico by Chief Dan Madena, called Derobio Kali. In which I believe they focus on zoning away from the strike.
I don't train in this style, but this is what I am told. Anyway, so to me as I trained, Kali simply meant certain counters in which you flowed away from your opponent.  

Respectfully
 The 14th Style


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## The 14th Style (Jun 14, 2003)

> How many times did I hear the myth that lapulapu defeated Magellan in a duel using escrima or kali



I heard that it was in a battle. not a duel
 but I have never heard that it was not true. Do most people agree with this? Not doubting you, just looking for more information thanks.

 The 14th Style


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 14, 2003)

Given the difference in the size of the forces at the time, I'd hazard a guess that bare handed they would have prevailed.  Magellen didnt exactly have an assault force with him.


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## The 14th Style (Jun 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Given the difference in the size of the forces at the time, I'd hazard a guess that bare handed they would have prevailed.  Magellen didnt exactly have an assault force with him. *



True, but if they had muskets and metal armor that would even things up a bit. I have also heard that the Spanish troops would be attacked as they waded ashore. The water negating their armor advantage. 
 So before anybody has a heart attack  ,Not saying this is true, just what I heard.

Respectfully The14th Style


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## thekuntawman (Jun 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by The 14th Style _
> *Do you think it might be possible that he truly believes that his information is correct? If the old men (as my instructor calls them) told him this was how it was, perhaps this is what he truly believes. Not saying who is right, just wondering about his point of view.
> Anyway, so to me as I trained, Kali simply meant certain counters in which you flowed away from your opponent.
> 
> ...



i dont think dan inosanto really believes everything he is telling people. for example, that arnis is the art of the north, eskrima of the visayas, and kali of mindanao. maybe once he believed it, but if he has met and train with edgar sulite and leo gaje, surely they have told him about that. and i am pretty sure somebody who speaks tagalog, told him "gunting" does not mean "destruction, it means scisors. many of the words he misuses, it would be to easy to find out the meanings of them. now, i am sure the kali word use came from one person, so perhaps he is showing respect to that teacher by calling the art "kali", no problem with that. but he is the ONLY person who tells the students that kali is the mother art. you mean, and expert of the philippine martial arts, the most well known of all FMA experts, and he doesnt know simple things like that? come on.

but to agree with what somebody esle said, that dan inosanto can help the popularity of the FMA in the philippines and himself by going home to teach, it would help, because he is still a hero to many filipinos, and many others feel he is afraid of going to the philippines (or he is shyed away from the truth in the philippine martial arts). it would help, and from my case, i would respect him more if he did.

back to 14th style's last point, "kali" and other words you want to use can be anything you want. but when people try to make up a history or connection to the philippines that does not exist, there is a real problem. for example, i read an article about "panantukan masters" in the philippines who like to box with knives shrug: ), completely ********, i would like to know where paul vunak got that from. this is the style of ted lucaylucay, but that history only goes back to him, yet vunak wants to make it look like this art goes back to the PI and its practiced by filipinos back home.

so Kali means counters moving away from the opponent? fine, but not FILIPINO philippine martial arts.


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## thekuntawman (Jun 15, 2003)

back to my original point, a lot of the confusion in the minds of FMA students would be helped if dan inosanto just said to the public, "pananjakman, kinomutai and kali are my arts (or what i call the arts), there is no practice of these things in the philippines", after he goes and sees for himself.


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## Black Grass (Jun 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *back to my original point, a lot of the confusion in the minds of FMA students would be helped if dan inosanto just said to the public, "pananjakman, kinomutai and kali are my arts (or what i call the arts), there is no practice of these things in the philippines", after he goes and sees for himself. *



He basically says this in his new video tape series. To paraphase  he says that this is what he has been told by his instructors and that he is a filipino american and doesm not know if this exists in the Philippines cause he has never been there.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## Black Grass (Jun 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> * and i am pretty sure somebody who speaks tagalog, told him "gunting" does not mean "destruction, it means scisors. many of the words he misuses... *



Actually he knows the gunting means scisors. He uses it to describe the crossing motion like scisors.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## haumana2000 (Jun 17, 2003)

consequently, there are those in the PI, who do use Kali. whether it's right or wrong they do.


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## Veynn (Jun 17, 2003)

Here in Manila the only Kali FMA's I know are Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Kali Ilustrisimo.


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## Cthulhu (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Veynn _
> *Here in Manila the only Kali FMA's I know are Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Kali Ilustrisimo. *



I believe it's Kali*s* Ilustrisimo.  At least, that is the Anglicized spelling I've seen.  Actual pronunciation may be different.

Cthulhu


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## lhommedieu (Jun 18, 2003)

I've no problem with the use of the term "kali."  The term reflects the assimulation of a word used in different contexts in several (Filipino) cultures into our (American, for the most part) culture.  That's generally how languages continue to evolve and develop:  they appropriate words from other languages and continue to use them, "rightly" or "wrongly," until the word gains a new meaning that can become quite independent of its original connotations.  In a hundred years or so, "kali" may still continue to connote Filipino fighting arts here in the United States, unless someone else comes up with a catchier term (which will, no doubt, not be used that much in the Philippines).  If "kali" manages to hang on for another hundred years, I doubt very much whether anyone will continue to debate the legitimacy of the term, as it will probably be considered to be as generic and practical a word as "aspirin" and "xerox."  Objecting to the word "Kali" will be about as practical as saying that Coke's not the "real thing" because Pepsi's better.

There are enough resources out there to dig into the etymological roots of the term "kali."  According to Wiley, it refers to an martial art developed in the legendary Bothoan school, with roots in Indonesian and Malaysian Silat systems.  The term may have linguistic associations with Kali, the Indian Goddess of War, with Kalimantan, the country where the ten datus come from, or with the kalis sword that is used by the Moros of Mindanao and Sulu, i.e., the kris. (Wiley, Filipino Martial Culture, p. 353)

As for whether there was ever an original martial art called "kali," the evidence is pretty clear that there are enough differences between the myriad familial-, tribal-, and regional-based Filipino martial arts to squash that claim.  "Kali" is a word from the realm of legend and myth, and is hence very marketable.  There are more than a couple "Arnis" and "Eskrima" arts that became "Kali" arts in the 1990's:  the claim here is perhaps not that they are original arts in the manner described above, but that they adhere more tenaciously to the original spirit of the Filipino warrior than all those other, lesser, watered-down versions for which everyone else is paying good money.  My advice:  pay less attention to the way that someone is marketing their martial art, and more attention to the way that they are practicing it.  In this sense, the "you use the word 'kali' so you're a liar and a fake argument" has something of a straw man-quality about it.

For the record, Magellan and his men, weighed down by armor in shallow water and tropical heat, without protection of their cannon due to the proximity of their enemy, and outnumbered by a much greater and more mobile force, were most likely killed by spear and arrow.  There is a very interesting discussion of this in the archives of the Dog Brothers public forum (it also describes the use of both Filipino and Western sword in the Philippines, among other things).

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Federico (Jun 18, 2003)

I would like to stress, the whole Bothoan School, Ten Datu, code of  Kalantiaw, etc... are falsehoods that have long been disproven by the late venerable researcher William Henry Scott.

Here are some links that help dispell these myths.
http://aklanweb.tripod.com/historiography.htm 
http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/kalant_e.htm 

If truth is not spread, then lies will replace it.


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## lhommedieu (Jun 18, 2003)

Sorry:  I should have emphasized the "legendary" aspect of the Bothoan school (as in myths and legends) part of my post.  The story of the Bothoan school and the datus is part of Filipino _folklore_ (not to be confused with history).   

My point was merely that the use of the term "kali" is, in part, supported by its association with a cultural myth (like George Washington admitting to cutting down the cherry tree, and Abe Lincoln walking twenty-five miles to return a dime).  Myths have their own stories to tell, even if they are not factual accounts of what actually happened.  Generally, we believe in myths when we are young and naive - but even if we later know better, we still understand the point of the myth.  

There is, surely, enough information available today about this issue (use of the term "kali") for people to make up their own minds.  In my case, I'm happy to accept it as a generic term, irrespective of its actual historical relevance.  

In this context, I would be interested in knowing the meaning of the term _kalista_ - if anyone out there speaks Tagalog.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## thekuntawman (Jun 19, 2003)

i dont think anybody is really saying, dont use kali". no one is saying, if you use kali to describe your martial arts your a liar, either. 

the debate is when those who know better, call the art "kali" then they say things they know are not true, like

"what i teach is the ancient art of kali, the mother art of eskrima and arnis.."

"kali is unlike arnis and eskrima, because...."

"kali is a more complete arts, unlike arnis and eskrima...."

"my art "predate" eskrima and arnis/prehispanic/etc..."

so what if your art is effective, isnt honesty important? then the people who use the word "kali", including me, should educate people when they come to study this ancienct, more complete, mother art, on the reality of the myth.

and like i said, many filipino teachers will feel better if the correction came from the one who is most well known for promoting the incorrect informations, and at least a pilgrammage to the "mother country" of his blood and his arts origin.


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## lhommedieu (Jun 19, 2003)

Kuntawman -

Fair enough - but anyone with enough gumption to research the history and tradition of his or her art (on www.martialtalk.com, for example) is going to reject the "Kali is the mother art of all FMA's" myth pretty quickly.  

What you are describing are marketing strategies. Caveat emptor.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 20, 2003)

This thread and the other one that started it got me thinking about what some different authors say on the issue.  So far we have Guro Inosanto and Mark Wilely however here are some other authors.

FWIW I think that to much is laid on Guro Inosanto with the Kali being the Mother art in reference to his book.

From Asian Fighting Arts by Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith.
1969 3rd printing 1974
"Pre Spanish Filipinos had tribal-organized training methods in the use of their weapons.  The bladed weapon was the core weapon: the kris, bolo, and the balaraw (a dagger type knife), the standard types.  Using the Tagalog term of kalis, which implies a large bladed weapon, the term became shortened for convience simply to kali.  Kali came to signify various weapon systems which made use of knives."

"Kali was forced underground by the arvial of the Spanish and developed clandestinely within the tribes"

Currently the best known and the most systemic fighting art of the Philippines is arnis de mano.  It boasts long historical development from the kali systems and is designed to train...."

"Like it kali ancestral forms, the best arnis styles were secret."
pgs 186-189

Modern Arnis (GM Remy's pink book) 1st US edition printed in the PHilippines 1974

"Arnis as a martial art was spawned in Philippine soil.  It was known in acient Philippines as kali, an ancient Malayan word which implies a large bladed weapon longer than a knife."

"Kali must have been derived from tjakalele which is native fencing in Indonesia"

Then GM Remy qoutes Dragger's book.

"Kali (Arnis) became so popular during the arly days that it was known as the sport of kings...."

"The art was not confined to the elite alone.  Ordinary Filipinos practised kali not only for self defense but also for entertainment....Sometimes combatants used their skill in kali to settle their differences"

"Kali was the standard fighting technique in hand to hand combat of the Filipinos when they revolted against Spain."

"In 1853 the word kali was replaced completely replaced by Arnis."....."However, some regions in the Philippines still retain the word kali in their vocabulary for this art."

pg 10-12

Lapunti Arnis De Abanico by Nasser Mahvashi (I have no idea when it was printed as it was printed by the author)

"Long before the coming of the Spainards to the Philippines ARNIS was already practiced in the country.  Arnis was in the early days called Kali."

"But it was In Mactan where the first Filipino hero called Lapu lapu and his men defeat the group of Magellan with his use of Kali Techniques or what is variably called ESTOCADA, ESCRIMA, or ARNIS DE MANO. (Emphasis in original)"

"Lapu-Lapu's men were impressed by the Spainiards sword.  This lead to the correction of its weaknesses, thus they modified and adapted it to their style of Kali, thus "espada y daga" or sword and dagger was incorporated into the Kali system." pg 9

More on the next post.
Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 20, 2003)

Sorry about the other post I wanted to send it before I lost it and it's late, I'm tired after class, and I didn't spell check it.

Pananandata by Amante Marinas Sr.
Paladin Press 2002

"...but in February 1564,......Their hosts, village chief Malitik, his son, Kamutuhan, and the villagers entertained the guests with native dances, wrestling, and kali - the art of fighting with weapons."

"Prior to 1610, kali was known by many names depending upon the dialect of the warrior.  Kali was known as pananadata in Tagalog, pagakalikali in Ilbanag, kalirongan in Pangasinan, kaliradman in Visayas,....."

"Indeed by 1853 the word kali had almost disappeared, replaced by the word "arnes" which later became "arnis" "

"Kali was orginally practiced by the royalty of the Visayan and the Tagalog regions, by the Amandakwas of Pangasinan and the Baruwangs of Cagayan."

"Kali was used to entain guests and spectators during fiestas, weddings, and birthdays of royalty and saints.  In times of conflict, kali was taught in secrecy under penalty of death."
pg 1-2

And last from 
Arnis Lanada by Amante P. Marinas  1984 by Unquie Publications

"Arnis evoled from kali, an acient martial art practiced by early Filipinos.  Kali, generally believed to have come from Indonesia, is a highly systemized form of fighting which was taught in tribal schools called bothoan prior to 1521."

"Many styles of arnis developed from kali.  Some are based on combinations of weapons.  Other styles are named after favorite techniques.  All styles teach one weapon fighting."
pg 4

My 2 cents (cause thats what it's worth).

Don Dragger's book was published before Guro Inosanto's book came out and he didn't use the Mother art term but it is definetly implied.  Mr. Dragger did travel to the Philippines while doing research for the book, he even mentions in the credits two Filipino men for their help.  Mr. Dragger was a long time martial artist and a Hopologist (?) ("Hopology- the study of human combative behavior and perfromance")

GM Remy's book was published in the Philippines in 1974 before Gruo Inosanto's book as well.  And he implies (states) that the Philippine martial arts came from kali (again to state that it is the mother art isn't to far fetched here).  And he even quotes some of Mr. Dragger's book.

Amante P. Marinas in both of his books use the term kali as predating Arnis and that arnis came from those systems.  

I also have other books that don't use the term kali or make the statements that arnis came from that system so I didn't include them.  And other books refer to all three terms Kali Arnis and Escrima and in reading these (the ones I qouted) books sections on the history they all refer to these names almost interchangeably.

So I don't think that it is improper to use the term nor is it all of Guro Inosanto's fault the term is out there.

Respectfully submitted  :asian: 
Mark


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## arnisador (Jun 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Given the difference in the size of the forces at the time, I'd hazard a guess that bare handed they would have prevailed.  Magellen didnt exactly have an assault force with him. *



Look what Cortez did in Mexico.


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## Sun_Helmet (Jun 23, 2003)

Magellan had an equal amount or more with him. However, Pigafetta and many others choose to omit the rival tribe of Filipino warriors awaiting in the water on their boats. It's an easy omission to explain how Magellan got trounced.

Magellan made a grievious tactical error.

Lapu Lapu made all the correct moves.

If we reread Pigafetta's accounts you will note more details about Lapu Lapu's formations and the manner of evasion. 

Here's something else many seem to discount:

Some of Magellan's men made it back to the boats. 
How could this be?
There's some explanations like from the HACA site of how great swordsmen Magellan's men were and that is how they got away, etc. That is a total myth since Magellan did not even get his sword deployed. There's more than enough details that Magellan's crew used projectiles, arquebuses and lances ... **NOT** swords.

We also seem to forget that the Spanish troops were lightly armoured against natives who grew up on these beaches. Natives who Pigafetta said moved very quickly. The natives with very light clothing could have closed and run the Spanish down easily.

I'm looking at all this tactically and Lapu Lapu must have made a great call to halt his warriors from following.

Why?

Because the REAL threat were the 1000 or so rival warriors out on the boats watching and waiting for Lapu Lapu's men to wade out to sea; trying to finish off the Spaniards.

Also note that some of Magellan's men were sent to torch their village during the skirmish.

This would leave Lapu Lapu's men easily surrounded or separated. Ultimately having no place to retreat if their village went up in flames. No stronghold. Even the cannon fire would soon reach them if they followed out to sea.

So there was much more going on than just Magellan and his men.

Pigafetta who saw Magellan as his "light and mirror" would of course downplay the threat of the rival tribe.

In the end - it proved to be their undoing.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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## The 14th Style (Jun 24, 2003)

Sun_Helmet, 
Thanks for taking the time to share some great information with us here. It's much appreciated. And thanks for the info on Lapu Lapu

Respectfully The 14th Style


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## The 14th Style (Jun 25, 2003)

(Quote)
i dont think dan inosanto really believes everything he is telling people. for example, that arnis is the art of the north, eskrima of the visayas, and kali of mindanao. maybe once he believed it, but if he has met and train with edgar sulite and leo gaje, surely they have told him about that. and i am pretty sure somebody who speaks tagalog, told him "gunting" does not mean "destruction, it means scisors. many of the words he misuses, it would be to easy to find out the meanings of them. now, i am sure the kali word use came from one person, so perhaps he is showing respect to that teacher by calling the art "kali", no problem with that. but he is the ONLY person who tells the students that kali is the mother art. you mean, and expert of the philippine martial arts, the most well known of all FMA experts, and he doesnt know simple things like that? come on.


You make many good points. But as I said not defending him just wondering about his perspective. I know that he said that he took a lot of the knife fighting techniques out of his book, due to pressure from some of the old Masters that taught him. I also remember hearing that a lot of the old men wanted to hide their art and were very reluctant to teach people outside of the Filipino community. And that a lot of times when they did teach they held back or taught less effective techniques. I have heard that Danny Inosanto had and has a great deal of respect for the teachers with whom he trained. I wonder if this was his way of protecting these arts or a compromise, so that he could get permission from some of these teachers to publish his book. Just a thought.

 (Quote)
back to 14th style's last point, "kali" and other words you want to use can be anything you want. but when people try to make up a history or connection to the philippines that does not exist, there is a real problem. for example, i read an article about "panantukan masters" in the philippines who like to box with knives (  ), completely ********, i would like to know where paul vunak got that from. this is the style of ted lucaylucay, but that history only goes back to him, yet vunak wants to make it look like this art goes back to the PI and its practiced by filipinos back home.

so Kali means counters moving away from the opponent? fine, but not FILIPINO philippine martial arts.



Unfortunately some people will always put money first. And you will never stop people from saying anything they want about this art or that. I do understand your frustration. I have learned more about my Mexican heritage from my father whom grew up in Mexico then I will ever learn from an American history book. But there will always be misconceptions about my people. That is the way of the world. I think the best way to combat this is to teach what you know and speak the truth as you see it. I know that I am willing to listen.  

One last point I was not trying to define Kali when I talked about zoning. I was simply saying, that is how we looked at it.

Yours respectfully The 14th Stlye


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## Sun_Helmet (Jun 25, 2003)

You're welcome!

Btw, if you are seeking for some books on Mexico's history. There's a couple that I would recommend that is not the typical glossed over text.

The Broken Spears - which maybe unpublished so you might have to seek it from some used book sellers or ebay.

Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest by Restall. Dispells many myths and has a lot to say about the methods of Conquesta.

Also, with your interest in FMAs, ... Mexico received some exiled Filipinos who began rebellions on the islands during the Conquest. There's documentation of Tondo exiles arriving on the galleons.

Whether they influenced the blade culture in Mexico, is still being researched.

best,
--Rafael Kayanan--
Sayoc Kali
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## The 14th Style (Jun 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sun_Helmet _
> *You're welcome!
> 
> Btw, if you are seeking for some books on Mexico's history. There's a couple that I would recommend that is not the typical glossed over text.
> ...



Hey Rafael !   Thanks for the book recommendation. I will definitely check them out. Could  you recommend any books on the FMA's? I have a few, but I am always looking for more. 

I also wanted to say thanks to lhommedieu and The Boar Man and everybody else for taking the time to post some great info.

with respect
 Russ D'Silva


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## Sun_Helmet (Jun 30, 2003)

Hello Russ,

I do not have that large of a library concerning FMAs related books. Most of the text I have concerns history relating to the islands. I know the typical FMA books are Inosanto's and Mark Wiley's. Many books that are FMAs oriented have tended to concentrate on the basics of the system, so perhaps others out there can speak more about their respected instructor's books.

Like video tape instruction, books have their obvious limitations and probably more effective if you already train in that system or just want to see the flavor of their art. I think they are a great way to introduce one's art to the public, as long as the public knows these items are merely the beginning.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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