# Why I dont post



## kenpohands (Aug 16, 2004)

Someone mentioned in a post that I don't support the Kenpo Forums anymore. This is my reason for that.

Yes I did post here at one time. And yes I did advertise a little to get a little exposure and welcome the kenpo community into the KKA. To share my discoveries of the karambit with my Kenpo Brothers. Unfortunatly I have had nothing but resistance to my Karambit incorporation into Kenpo from fellow Kenpoist. The very art that does little with knifes at all. (unless pursed elsewhere) Kenpoist take cheap shots at me and the KKA all the time yet they fail to prove their reasons why they disagree with my ideas. Thats why I choose not to post on the Kenpo forums. No one kenpoist who has bad mouthed my KKA has ever asked to train and show me that what I do I with a karambit is "a no brainer" The kenpo talk is all talk. I have given over 30 years to the art of kenpo and in return I get closed minds and little support from my fellow kenpoist, this is sad to me. I would expect less support from outsiders.

Yet it is quite the opposite, The styles that KNOW knife fighting,many top knife /Karambit/ tactical practicioners are calling me out to show them first hand what it is I do. They encounter first hand training and when we are done I get their approval , endorsment and support. All my most loyal KKA members are from Phillipino based knife fighting systems.

I just wish the Kenpo community would be a little more open minded and quit talking so much. Come on on the matt and train, not talk.Validate your comments about my Kenpo Karambit. Show me , explain why you think it does not work, come out and train for Gods sake. Perhaps you can teach me a few things. Many knife fighters come visit. They test me and my Karambit skills all the time.They always end up staying. This past Sat I had a few of Guru Inosanto's guys visit. They were very impressed, had a great time and will be continuing to train with us. My door is always open my all Kenpo Brothers.
Check your egos at the door and open your minds up a bit. You might be surprised at what you will see and learn! Kenpo is not the ONLY way my brothers! Let's support each other for a change.
Salute
Angelo Collado
5th Degree Black Belt
Kenpo Karate
(626)841-1290


----------



## Ceicei (Aug 16, 2004)

Intriquing.  I know very little about karambit, but do have a strong interest with various types of weapons.  Although I am involved with American Kenpo, the head instructor is open minded about training with weapons (knives, sticks, etc.).  We do have certain techniques in upper rank study involving weapons.

Do you have a web site that explains more about karambit?  Do you have some more detail of how you incorporate that with kenpo?  

Thank you.

- Ceicei


----------



## kenpohands (Aug 16, 2004)

http://www.kenpokarambit.com


----------



## Ceicei (Aug 16, 2004)

kenpohands said:
			
		

> http://www.kenpokarambit.com


Thank you.

How do you usually train students that live a long way from you? Is your primary source of instruction by the seminar method?

- Ceicei


----------



## GAB (Aug 16, 2004)

Hello, I went to your web site, it is nice, the products look good. The first thing that came to my mind was the price. That could be what puts people off.
Just an observation. Regards, Gary


----------



## kenpohands (Aug 16, 2004)

I start with a seminar and once the school joins, I visit once a month for a full day of lessons. Its tough being apart, but it is better than a video or book. I try to see my folks as often as possible.


----------



## kenpohands (Aug 16, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hello, I went to your web site, it is nice, the products look good. The first thing that came to my mind was the price. That could be what puts people off.
> Just an observation. Regards, Gary


Dear GAB,
If the price is an issue then that proves Kenpo folks don't know the knife world real well. We (knife fighters and collectors) avoid poor quality steel and plastic handle designs like M-tech and Foster. We want a top quality steel that will not let us down in a situation. Our product is high quality.Semi-custom means all parts are put togeter by hand. S30v steel , Boss heat treated top of the line stuff. We are right in the ballpark if you know your knifes and understand quality. There are even more expensive stuff out there. Do some research my friend, you will be surprised as to what a good knife costs.


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 16, 2004)

You might be surprised to see that there are lots of Kenpo stylists who have open minds. I've met quite a few here and we all agree that there are a few who are very vocal and interfere with the learning of others because they do not accept new ideas. The Kenpo rooms can be a bit chilly, but I think there has been a lot of work on the moderators' part to try and control that. 

I see you do seminars with Tom Sotis and I took one at the Kenpo Karate Internationals in Boston with him and he was awesome, but you are right it was not received well by everyone here. Those with closed minds only cut themselves off from what they could know.

Your site is  Good luck in your journey!

MJ :asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth (Aug 16, 2004)

Sir, there are some people here that just like to annoy people. They believe that their way of thinking is the only way and if you disagree it turns out to be a long battle via the keyboard. At one point last year I was ready to ask Kaith to close my account and get off of this board because I was tired of all of the crap I was reading. Reluctantly I decided not to do so and just not post here at all for quite a few months. There is a new group of enthusiastic kenpoist that like to discuss kenpo, learn kenpo, trade ideas about kenpo and are genuinely good people. This is why I started posting again. You have a lot of knowledge on your website, no doubt it was from alot of hard work with plenty of sweat. For your new found innovative ideas to take kenpo into a new direction I give you full salutation.  :asian:  
Keep postin'


----------



## Rob Broad (Aug 16, 2004)

Personally, I am know as the Kenpo Whore.  I will learn from anyone that has the information I want to know.  I have no qualms with experimenting with innovating ideas or weapons with my weapons.  I say good for you Mr. Collado in exploring your art.


----------



## Sarah (Aug 16, 2004)

I know nothing about Kenpo....but just wonted to say dont let anyone who has made assumptions/comments based on ignorance sway you from your journey, what is important are the many people who 'are' interested in what you have to say.


----------



## tmanifold (Aug 16, 2004)

kenpohands said:
			
		

> Dear GAB,
> If the price is an issue then that proves Kenpo folks don't know the knife world real well. We (knife fighters and collectors) avoid poor quality steel and plastic handle designs like M-tech and Foster. We want a top quality steel that will not let us down in a situation. Our product is high quality.Semi-custom means all parts are put togeter by hand. S30v steel , Boss heat treated top of the line stuff. We are right in the ballpark if you know your knifes and understand quality. There are even more expensive stuff out there. Do some research my friend, you will be surprised as to what a good knife costs.



I noticed that it was a Strider knife. That is a real quality blade. I assume you don't force people who learn from you to buy your blades and their are some quality karambits out there for under 100 dollars. They won't be as nice a mick's stuff but servicable.


----------



## DoxN4cer (Aug 17, 2004)

Mr. Collado, 
      I've been a Kenpo and FMA practitoner for many years.  It's to the point to where I don't see the line where the kenpo ends and the FMA begins.  I have a questions about your adoption of the kerambit.  I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I believe in consciencious use of force for self defense and being able to have legal justification for tools/weapons that I keep on my person. 

How would you justify a fixed blale kerambit like the Stryder to a LEO?   

How would you show justifiable and consciencious use of force for self defense (to LEOs or in court) after shredding (maiming) an attacker with one?

All things considered,  I can't disagree with you adding that or any other weapon to the kenpo that you do.  I find it commendable that you've added it to your system and give credit where it is due instead of trying to dupe the public into thinking it was something new that you created.  There's too much of that going on in martial arts these days. 

Regards,

Tim Kashino


----------



## kenpohands (Aug 17, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Mr. Collado,
> I've been a Kenpo and FMA practitoner for many years.  It's to the point to where I don't see the line where the kenpo ends and the FMA begins.  I have a questions about your adoption of the kerambit.  I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I believe in consciencious use of force for self defense and being able to have legal justification for tools/weapons that I keep on my person.
> 
> How would you justify a fixed blade kerambit like the Stryder to a LEO?
> ...




Thanks for the reply.
First off, I don't find any justification in any over excessive display of self defense. If you are familiar with the empty hand art of kenpo, it in itself if practiced as taught will leave your attacker mamed and left for dead, if not dead. No weapons needed. 80% of my karambit use within the kenpo system is done with a trainer, a non lethal, non edged , legal, impact device. The karambit trainer can be used as a defense against a live blade, club or whatever is attacking you. It is used as a pressure point, grappling , lockflow, chin-na device as well. I can manipulate ,pin, check , control etc... WITHOUT using a live edged weapon. If by fate I was to be attacked on the street. I would pull out my trainer first hand. If live and death were a factor I would indeed draw my live karambit and use it closed, until and if only I needed to deploy the blade. I teach this to all my students. However. I do alot of tactical training as well. In a war zone, police, hostage situation. Live blade is the only option.
These men come to learn to kill and survive. So they are taught how to use the weapon properly. There are many HQ and Marines that carry the Strider/Tarani HS in Iran, Iraq, Afhganantan as we speak. There has also been confirmed kill with the HS in an attempted assasination on US goverment officials. 
This is the reality of war. I do not teach these applications to civillians.

Its just like learning to shoot. Its a live bullet, you will mame or kill, but you continue to train,hone your craft to perfection just in case!

No I did not invent anything. I just incorporated and arranged the blend of two powerful arts. They both are lethal as a separate arts. Combined they are no more lethal, just more versitile.
Just my thoughts


----------



## DoxN4cer (Aug 17, 2004)

Thanks for the reply.  That's pretty much my approach to my blend of kenpo and FMA.  I'm selective in who I teach, and I'm even more selective in who I teach the blade.  

I am familiar with kenpo and what the intentions are.  The FMA are no different in that regard as well.  However,  I am an advocacte of justifiable force.  Do you have a progam in place to educate your students on the ramifications of use of force in self defense in accordance with your state and local laws?  Even soldiers have rules of engagement.  I review ours with my troops every morning at guardmount.

One of my kenpo instructors did.  Whe had to research the state penal code and understand just what we could and couldn't do in our own self defense, as well as how (and why) it is necessary to use the least amount of force necessary to control/end a street confrontation.  Just food for thought.

r/

Tim Kashino


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 17, 2004)

Kenpohands,

For a good, carry friendly impact Karambit, you should check out the Travel Wrench by Kelly Worden... http://www.kellyworden.com/home/pknives_travel.html

You might want to consider using and advocating the use of this tool...basically your impact Karambit applications apply.

That is, if this hasn't already been considered.

Paul


----------



## stickaddict (Aug 19, 2004)

kenpohands said:
			
		

> It is used as a pressure point, grappling , lockflow, chin-na device as well. I can manipulate ,pin, check , control etc... WITHOUT using a live edged weapon. If by fate I was to be attacked on the street. I would pull out my trainer first hand. If live and death were a factor I would indeed draw my live karambit and use it closed, until and if only I needed to deploy the blade. I teach this to all my students. However. I do alot of tactical training as well. In a war zone, police, hostage situation. Live blade is the only option.
> These men come to learn to kill and survive. So they are taught how to use the weapon properly. There are many HQ and Marines that carry the Strider/Tarani HS in Iran, Iraq, Afhganantan as we speak. There has also been confirmed kill with the HS in an attempted assasination on US goverment officials.
> This is the reality of war. I do not teach these applications to civillians.
> 
> Its just like learning to shoot. Its a live bullet, you will mame or kill, but you continue to train,hone your craft to perfection just in case!


Kenpohands,
Was reading your post and a few thoughts occured to me.
First off.. I'm AD, deployed at the moment, and a longtime FMA addict.
That said... while we all have "the right" to teach what we know to whom
we wish (and not to teach when we don't wish) I question the consistency
in calling one section of the public "civilians" with respect to blade skills.
The most skilled people I know were never inside the crap machine.
Moreover many LEOs and AD types already have a tin-god mentality.
Do we want to encourage this sort of thing? I certainly don't.
If anything I think civilians need access to lethal force blade skills because
1.)it's not like they can call in officer backup or air support, nor do they
have an M-16 in the HMMV...
and
2.) they may very well encounter a knife-weilding assailant and (despite
what many "unarmed"martial arts proponents seem to think.. you can't
fight against the knife till you can fight WITH it. You know this..
people who don't play with knives (or gut people with them, or use them
for chores etc.) just don't *get* what a sharp edge will do.

I think making a judgement call on the maturity of a potential client/student
is responsible.. but making a badge or military ID neccessary is, to me, IMHO
simply unacceptable. 
You are to be complimented however, on bring blade arts into your 
emptyhand, that's something that's VERY VERY crucial to street survivability,
especially with the advent of popularized groundfighting.

Best of luck in your training,
Brian


----------



## kenpohands (Aug 19, 2004)

GREAT RESPONSE,
First off let me explain my definition of "Civillian" Someone who is not envolved with or part of, Law enforcement and or military duties and responsibility as a career or job. Responsibility defined as the obligation to get involved and protect others from harm. Mandatory involment with an attacker. As a "civillian" one has no obligation to get involved unless he wants to. If an attacker with a knife is around the corner, a cilvillian has no resposibility or will not be called upon to get involved. A law enforcement/Military person has to respond, therfore must be trained as such. 
My civillian students and peer ar far more lethal than many LEO. I train those who have a reason and a purpose to learn, Are in the correct state of mind to learn to kill, have the responsibility to control the art within. You saw the movie, The hunted. The teacher never was in the Military nor had he never killed a human. He only taught those who did, and was the only one who could stop those who can. Interesting. I do not label anyone. I screen them. 
I do agree with you philosophy as well.
Just my thoughts.
http://www.kenpokarambit.com


----------



## stickaddict (Aug 20, 2004)

FWIW The movie "The Hunted"... while a wonderful piece of cinema for those of
us who love bladework...had some serious divergence from reality (don't they all)
that's relevant to this discussion.
  If you read the commentary by the fight choregraphers from the Sayoc folks they
point out that they had to *stretch out* the fight scenes, to make a good movie.
  Now if you take a cold killer (a incredibly skilled killer) and put him up against the
inherently good (inherently hesitant) teacher.... and the fights are much much
more sudden (and ambushed based maybe).... (would TLJ's character have snuck
up on the villain in the first act and gutted him unawares? I don't think he's that
sort of person...)
  Well what-if games are just that.. but it bears thinking on.
  My money would be on the psycho frankly...

  Also I would ask.. if someone hasn't done a 21"ft drill (and if I teach this to the
 "need to know" cases) and carries a legal concealed handgun.. have I done my
trainee a disservice by not giving them a VISCERAL understanding of how close
a knife wielder can be and lethally prevent the proper deployment of a handgun
by a potential victim?  
  I can't think of a more effective way to demonstrate the limitations of a holstered
firearm than a bit of knife training and the "attacker with blade" role in a ForceOnForce
scenario.

  Knife is a fascinating subject.. but it is not only the province of the "authorized
force employers" of society plus the avid hobbyists.

take care KH.


----------



## kenpohands (Aug 20, 2004)

stickaddict said:
			
		

> Also I would ask.. if someone hasn't done a 21"ft drill (and if I teach this to the
> "need to know" cases) and carries a legal concealed handgun.. have I done my
> trainee a disservice by not giving them a VISCERAL understanding of how close
> a knife wielder can be and lethally prevent the proper deployment of a handgun
> ...



How do you run your 21 ft drills? I have seen many cool variations. Please elaborate
AC


----------



## Kalicombat (Aug 21, 2004)

Mr. Collado,
    Glad I found this post. I am sorry to hear that the kenpo community has closed their eyes towards you and the Kerambit. I am also a kenpo practitioner, both EPAK, and an off shoot system. My passion is Kenpo, and bladed weapons run a close second. I have visited your site before, and it is obvious you have done your homework on the Kerambit, however, without viewing any hands on use, let me just point out what I personaly feel is a detractor in just the information on the website that I have reviewed. First, the kerambit, from what I can tell, is basically a reverse grip, or ice pick grip weapon. For me, and from my personal experience, the reverse grip is an inferior grip in a blade-to-blade confrontation. My reasoning is that the reverse grip is limited in both reach and maneuverability. I have worked with the reverse grip and a modified saber grip, and I have found that for me, the modified saber grip is quicker, more maneuverable, and allows for much more power, and as I mentioned, allows for greater reach. I know it maybe only 3 or 4 inches, depending on the blade length, but when it comes to blades, inches are all that matters.

     My second observation is that the kerambit and its design seems like it would be very easy to get caught on an opponents clothing. Like I said, I have never trained with one, but the blade angles seem to be on the inside of the curve, which would not allow for slashes unless with the very tip, which seems to run a good chance of getting hung up.. 

    My final observation is one of practicality. I have attended many FMA seminars, and like most, have always come  home with some useful information. However, I have found that alot of the bladed weapons, and even stick material info is very impractical. For instance, the grab-counter-grab-counter type maneuvers that many people teach do not work. In class, a controlled environment, they work as drills, because both people know exactly what the other is doing, and their is no intent on running you through with the weapon. However, in a blade-to-blade confrontation, the highly intriquet, and involved techniques will get you cut. Much like the stick grappling that some people teach, I have found to have little realism or use as a self defense tool. I am more aligned with the basics is both knife and stick. Sound development of the basic 12 strikes, blocks, feints, and never overlooked, footwork and foot maneuvers. Much like kenpo, knifefighting and stickfighting prowess is best designed at the basics. WIthout sound technique and never ending drilling of the basics, nothing else can develop. From some of the techniques you have displayed on your website, it appears at though they are too involved in my opinion and go against a basic principle in kenpo of economy of motion. Like the first technique you have shown. The first strike with the kerambit you have shown is a pec cut. If  you had a regular blade in a saber grip, the cut would be much quicker, as you would not have to make such a big arch in such an awkward grip. After your left hand parry, you would be able to contour the outside of your opponents arm with a straight shot into either the armpit or the chest. Also, in your example, the elbow is so high with the kerambit during your first cut, and your left parry is only a check, your opponent would only have to drop his arm straight down and do a "J" cut to your outer forearm or tricep.

    Please  understand that I am only responding to your original post of why you dont post. I am merely trying to give you some feedback as I see it, through the eyes of a kenpo practitioner primarily, and a bladed weapons instructor secondarily. I have read many of your posts on here and other kenpo forums, and have always found your kenpo advice and knowledge to be quality info. I'd also like to say that it is impressive that you have the perseverance and fortitude to not allow all your detractors to stop your endeavor. Good luck with the kerambit, and hopefully some day we'll be able to meet to work some of this material.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman


----------



## kenpohands (Aug 21, 2004)

Great reply, Constructive comments . I like that.
First off, The Kenpo community have not closed their eyes to me or my kenpo, I am well received in all Kenpo circles, They just don't like thew karambit as a weapon thats all. I have not been turned away from my kenpo community at all.

Now,
It is difficult to realize the potential of the karambit and what I do unless you actually work out with us and see the system. In the photos I use the kenpo mentality to show a kerambit technique. Thats how the kenpo practicioner's mind will comprehend and learn a technique, So I addapted this method to show my kenpo brothers what I do.

As far as the grip. I agree with you if it were a knife, Reverse grip not as versitile. BUT with a karambit I can gauge distance, use the extended grip when needed which gives me 4-5 inches of reach instantly without loosing control. My extended grip cuts are fast, percise and are very deceptive. I also have an increadible impact manuever with the flip into an extended grip, using the back spine of the trainer or blade.. I can break a 1" dowel (a large bone) with only a few inches of working space. I nearly break a hand a week in class with protective  gloves on. Its like getting hit with a kali strike, It hurts, I use targets all over the body. In the extended grip there is an entire method of cutting on the retraction phase of a strike or cut as well. I seldom get caught in the clothing and never get disarmed as well. 

I do NOT train in a non functional or unrealistic manner. My training is the same as an actual knife fight.  we duel each session, Karambit to knife, Knife to knife, Grip vs, grip, unarmed vs. armed. Not "stone statue" posing and one step technique work as in kenpo. I go head to head against a straight blade all the time. Full out fast 5 sec matches, first lethal cut wins, Use of dammage assessment commentary from the center judge. "Only a leg cut superficial continue" I get in my cuts, disarms control licks and much more. We have practicioners from FMA and many other knife styles workout with us each week. Many have experienced the versatility and now train with the karambit as well. All blackbelts of their systems. Many knife fightesr have visited and we duel. Its the only way too se the sysyem in action. It is a mutual exchange and we both do very well.

"To see is to be deceived" my friend. "To Feel is to believe". I must live by that Ed Parker quote with my karambit work. If you ever get a chance to train with us Please do. Its a real experience. The invitation is always open.


----------



## Kalicombat (Aug 21, 2004)

Thanks for replying so quick. I like your explanations. Describing your duels sound like the kill-shot tournaments Ive been involved in; first debilitating or lethal strike wins. Most matches are very quick, not the hollywood scenes that alot of so called knife experts try to fool people into believng as being the way things work out in a knife fight. 

I wish you'd produce some videos for those of us that live so far away. If you're ever in Texas for a seminar make sure you advertise it well and I'll keep up with your website to stay informed. Im on my way to a gun and knife show in an hour or so, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a trainer kerambit to start getting a feel for the weapon.

Thanks, 
Gary Catherman


----------



## stickaddict (Aug 22, 2004)

kenpohands said:
			
		

> How do you run your 21 ft drills? I have seen many cool variations. Please elaborate
> AC


"I" don't run "my" drills (in the sense that I have a regular class I teach).
The first time I saw the 21' foot drill (or a variant) done one of my teachers
(the senior one of the two) had a friend (not an FMA trainee of his) who had
taken Mu Duk Kwan and Hapkido at the school in years past. He was (by all
accounts, I can't swear to his credentials personally) some sort of an ace
at tactical draw. Teach stood on the other side of the dojo, the LEO had
his weapon holstered (BUT NOT STRAPPED IN). They went back and forth and
in about 20-25 repetitions the LEO got off only 1 clean "shot" while Teach was
still back. He got the gun up like 3 times total (not clean shots). The LEO
frankly admitted he would have gotten shanked unless he got some freak
head shot the 3 times he got the gun "up" (i.e. not likely).
  When I played this game with one of my buddies in the desert I had the
neat opportunity to play the game with my wooden trainer (I didn't have
a meatallic trainer out here) and my friend was using his duty pistol and
a Laser Blaster (this is a neat gizmo that paints a laser/IR dot when the hammer drops). Both of you check the weapon and then go to work.
 Same basic results.. we've been trying to figure out ways to make it work..
  As near as we can figure to get a good draw out you'd have to have one
of those IDPA "speed holsters" and somehow open up distance. My buddy
shoots very VERY well and his take is that you'd better have your point 
shooting down pat to up your odds. That and stay really alert!


----------



## OULobo (Aug 23, 2004)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Mr. Collado,
> Glad I found this post. I am sorry to hear that the kenpo community has closed their eyes towards you and the Kerambit. I am also a kenpo practitioner, both EPAK, and an off shoot system. My passion is Kenpo, and bladed weapons run a close second. I have visited your site before, and it is obvious you have done your homework on the Kerambit, however, without viewing any hands on use, let me just point out what I personaly feel is a detractor in just the information on the website that I have reviewed. First, the kerambit, from what I can tell, is basically a reverse grip, or ice pick grip weapon. For me, and from my personal experience, the reverse grip is an inferior grip in a blade-to-blade confrontation. My reasoning is that the reverse grip is limited in both reach and maneuverability. I have worked with the reverse grip and a modified saber grip, and I have found that for me, the modified saber grip is quicker, more maneuverable, and allows for much more power, and as I mentioned, allows for greater reach. I know it maybe only 3 or 4 inches, depending on the blade length, but when it comes to blades, inches are all that matters.
> 
> My second observation is that the kerambit and its design seems like it would be very easy to get caught on an opponents clothing. Like I said, I have never trained with one, but the blade angles seem to be on the inside of the curve, which would not allow for slashes unless with the very tip, which seems to run a good chance of getting hung up..
> ...



I'd like to comment on this too. 

To the first point, I agree that the karambit is most often used in the reverse or ice pick grip. This grip is not inherently inferior. It is only inferior in the classic knife duel encounter. The advantage of this grip is in the close or trapping range encounters, where longer blade lengths mean leverage for disarms and harder angles to utilize the tip for the most lethal attack, stabbing. I have always thought of the karambit as a close range weapon that makes due (with things like the extended position) if caught up in a long range duel. 

On the second point, the traditional design of the karambit is bladed on both sides of the hook, allowing slices from the back side. Sometimes the design has a barbed formation on the back side to allow for hooking and learing cloths and flesh. With a good sharp karambit, you should easily be able to force out of any clothing bind. 

On the final point of practicality, I have to mention two things. The first is that it should be understood that sticks and blades although taught with the same method and often the same techniques are not the same thing. Stick grappling is meant to be applied with a stick. If you tried any of those techniques with a machete or sword, you are commiting suicide, as if you opponent doesn't take you apart, you will do it your self. I agree with the mention of the counter to counter drills being ineffective in a practical sense, but most of the time such drills are designed to give instant reactions to "what if" situations. The second key point to bring up is the origin of the karambit and it's place in Indonesian and filipino society. In Indonesia the karambit has become a gentleman's duling weapon. They fight by agreement with karambits. In the south Philippines it is more of a sneaky man's assassin type weapon. Neither of these uses is meant as a stand up, against anything dueling weapon that most people assume. 

In truth I see the karambit as a fun and traditional weapon, but I don't think I would use it as a self-defense weapon.


----------



## kenpohands (Aug 23, 2004)

I respect everyones opinion. The karambit is not for everyone. I will say that I would use a Karambit over a knife in any situation.  I feel very comfortable with my karambit. Its all a matter of confidence and comfort.  

I watched the Olympics and I viewed the balance  beam routines and quite frankly I would never consider flipping on , off, ontop of a 6" wide beam, nor could I if I wanted too, However to the gymnast its a daily activity and if they had to walk a 6" beam in real life I don't think they would even think twice about it. My point is just because me and 10 million people would not ever consider doing it does not mean that there are not those few who would do it in a heart beat and feel very comfortable with it.

Good luck with your training Sir. I respect you views and opinions.

Angelo Collado
5th Degree Blackbelt Kenpo Karate


----------



## TChase (Sep 17, 2004)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> For me, and from my personal experience, the reverse grip is an inferior grip in a blade-to-blade confrontation.


I would very much disagree with you on that.  If you ever get the chance, check out what Mr. Pick is doing with the knife.  The reverse grip is the primary grip used in the knife applications he teaches to his Kenpo students as well as the Army Special Forces groups he teaches.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Sep 17, 2004)

I don't remember you catching all that much hell, and I remember asking if the Karambiut was the focus and you assured me it was not. That being said, your opinions of Kenpo outside the karambit is what Kenpoists would most like to discuss with you. Its not that the karambit is not interesting, but most discussions would naturaly not involve it. I for one would love to hear your opinions about Kenpo. :asian: 
Sean


----------



## TChase (Sep 17, 2004)

kenpohands said:
			
		

> Unfortunatly I have had nothing but resistance to my Karambit incorporation into Kenpo from fellow Kenpoist. The very art that does little with knifes at all. (unless pursed elsewhere) Kenpoist take cheap shots at me and the KKA all the time yet they fail to prove their reasons why they disagree with my ideas.


Hello Angelo,

This is the first I've seen of your Karambit system. What do you feel are the benefits of this weapon over the knife?

From viewing the techniques you have posted on your website I will give you my impressions. In the opening engagement it seems you are trying to parry the knife and attack the enemies body. The problem with this, is you have not addressed the enemies knife. At anytime before or during your initial slash the enemy has to merely retract or redirect his attack and you will be cut. Another problem I see with the opening move is that you have allowed the enemies knife to pass behind you. The two most important things I have learned are immediately address the enemies knife as well as his mass, and never allow yours or the enemies knife to be anywhere but directly in front of you.

Another thing I see is that because of the shape and nature of the weapon it seems you will be constantly working on the downside of the circle. In your first move for example you make a very big circle and make a slash on the returning apex. To me it seems that the karambit is more of a slashing weapon than a cutting one and also less efficient than a knife. I can count at least 5 seperate moves in the execution of your technique from start to finish whereas I personally would use 2-3 max to accomplish the same exact result although in a slightly different order. Also it seems you come very close to cutting your own hand while making your fillet/strip.

One last thing I see is that you take no action to control bloodflow. When cutting major arteries such as in the neck, wrist, and arms, blood can spray and flow heavily. This can cause a huge problem from being blinded by spray in the eyes to being unable to hang on or slip due to massive flow.

These are of a few of the reasons I disagree with your methods based on what I have learned about knife combat in the UKF. This is all based on the pics you posted on your website. As we all know pics don't tell the whole story and in reality I could be very far off on what's really happening there. I in no way mean to insult you or degrade what you have done. I hope you don't take it that way. It takes guts to come up with something new or different and put it out there for the world to see. I commend you for that.  Is there anyone in the Northeast using your system?  I would be willing to check out first hand what you have come up with.


----------



## OULobo (Sep 17, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Hello Angelo,
> 
> This is the first I've seen of your Karambit system. What do you feel are the benefits of this weapon over the Knife?
> 
> ...



Tom, if you don't mind, I'll make a few comments on your analyzation, in rebuttle, while we wait for Angelo. To the issue of "parry and attack the body", I would point out that being very close to the knifer's body utilizes the advantage that the karambit and it's inherent "ice pick" grip has, like avoiding the longer rage capabilities of the knife and gaining leverage disarms or traps. As to addressing the weapon, I'd offer that a parry is a very valid way to address the weapon, especially when delivering a blow to a close target while avoiding the attacker's weapon. The idea of "never allowing an attacker's knife to be anywhere but in from of you" is doctrine for some systems, but not all, and I wouldn't state it as gospel. To issue of the attacking angles of the karambit, I would say to keep in mind that many karambits are bladed on both sides of the "hook", and as such backhand slashes are still effective. I would agree that a limitation of the karambit is it propensity to be used as a slashing and tearing weapon. The last thing to mention is the issue of "bloodworks". I agree that the act of protecting the eyes is missing, but many arts don't offer this little tidbit. Some explain it away by saying that it is impossible to predict the motion and patterns of "bloodworks", and that it is so messy that techniques to negate it are almost always ineffective. Another note is that the ring of the karambit means that grip loss is the last worry of it's user. Thanks for the well stated and politely commented analyzation.


----------



## Kalicombat (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:"I would very much disagree with you on that. If you ever get the chance, check out what Mr. Pick is doing with the knife. The reverse grip is the primary grip used in the knife applications he teaches to his Kenpo students as well as the Army Special Forces groups he teaches."

Tchase,
    Guess we'll agree to disagree. I have studied bladed combat extensively, and have had some hands on experience, and my conclusions concerning the reverse grip are arrived at from those experiences. It is important to remember that the self defense applications of a knife for civilians is much different then special forces application. That being, special forces applications are often surprise attacks with sentry elimination via lethal strikes the primary focus. For the civilian, forced to draw his knife, lethal techniques are not necessarily the ultimate goal. Not that either point makes a difference on the effectiveness of the saber grip-vs-the reverse grip.....I stand by my reasoning. 

Thanks for the reply,
Gary C.


----------



## TChase (Sep 18, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> To the issue of "parry and attack the body", I would point out that being very close to the knifer's body utilizes the advantage that the karambit and it's inherent "ice pick" grip has, like avoiding the longer rage capabilities of the knife and gaining leverage disarms or traps.


I absolutely agree.  Whether it be against a knife, club or empty handed attack I would immediately try to close all distance and go through the enemy.  One of the ultimate goals in Kenpo is to dominate the enemies space.  That was actually another concern of mine but I forgot to mention it.



			
				OULobo said:
			
		

> As to addressing the weapon, I'd offer that a parry is a very valid way to address the weapon, especially when delivering a blow to a close target while avoiding the attacker's weapon. The idea of "never allowing an attacker's knife to be anywhere but in from of you" is doctrine for some systems, but not all, and I wouldn't state it as gospel.


By addressing the weapon I mean to immediately remove or immobilize it.  As I'm sure you know, someone attacking with a knife isn't going to make a single lunge and then stand there.  They are either going to continue stabbing/slashing, redirect the attack, or retract and prepare for another attack.  By only parrying you allow the enemy time and opportunity to do any of the three.  And once it has passed behind you you've lost visual contact with it.

Thank you for your reply.  They are well thought out points.  Although I still tend to disagree I enjoy the conversation.


----------



## kenpohands (Sep 22, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Hello Angelo,
> 
> This is the first I've seen of your Karambit system. What do you feel are the benefits of this weapon over the knife?
> 
> ...





"The problem with this, is you have not addressed the enemies knife. At anytime before or during your initial slash the enemy has to merely retract or redirect his attack and you will be cut. PLUS I have a left hand parry /check just above the elbow to control a back slash of the opponent. I also address the knife in the next move with a disarm"

If you look again and you may not catch it in the photo series, The cut is throuch the pectoralis muscle. A major arm mover, I target all the tendons and muscles that control the arm, so a knife  the hand is useless unless there is an attached muscle to move it. I cut all the control cables.


Another thing I see is that because of the shape and nature of the weapon it seems you will be constantly working on the downside of the circle. In your first move for example you make a very big circle and make a slash on the returning apex. To me it seems that the karambit is more of a slashing weapon than a cutting one and also less efficient than a knife.

In this particular technique yes, However if you can recall the technique Gathering Clouds and apply that application it is nearly the same movement on a tilted plane. the Karambit is double sided and the upside of the circle is well incorporated here, Plus all that is needed to puncture is a flip of the wrist, A knife used to slash is just as effective as a karambit, but the kararambit is not used as a stabbing tool. It a different application all together. We cut off, cut through  and cut around, not through the.
I know Mr. Pick saying ' Don't cut to cut, cut to kill" different methology here.


One last thing I see is that you take no action to control bloodflow. When cutting major arteries such as in the neck, wrist, and arms, blood can spray and flow heavily. This can cause a huge problem from being blinded by spray in the eyes to being unable to hang on or slip due to massive flow.

Blood flow control is an issue , In what I researched 90 % of the spray is un predictable and the karambit cuts are not as deep as a plunging dagger.We are stil concerned about this. Mr. Pick brought this to my attention several times. In KK we move around the opponent as we cut moving to the back side of the attracker . we control from the rear. As far as loosing the weapon, with the finger hole it makes it nearly impossible to loose. We have trained in the ocean waves with them and never lost one yet.

I appreciate your comments, I have trained with Mr. Pick on several occasions and I respect him highly. He knows me well, He gave me a set of custom axes, what a treasure. I briefly showed Marcus B. some Karambit at the IKC a few months ago, It was fun, 

REMEMBER the tech you critiqued was a DEMO PHOTO to show basic patterns and applications. WIDE movements were seen on the photo to show the movement.In reality we carve around very small circles, This is NOT a true picture of my Kenpo Karambit System. The only way to test it out and really get a feel is to hook up and exchange ideas in person. Alot will be self explained when you see and feel the blade work first hand. Hell its also really fun to use (train with)

As far as the "amost cut yourself on the fillet" ALmost is not a cut. I avoid as much wasted motion as possible, I know its close . but with practice and repitition you tend to cut the corners a bit.
Give me a call and lets hook up and train. I would love that (626) 841-1290
Respectfully
Angelo Collado


----------



## TChase (Sep 23, 2004)

kenpohands said:
			
		

> "If you look again and you may not catch it in the photo series, The cut is throuch the pectoralis muscle. A major arm mover, I target all the tendons and muscles that control the arm, so a knife the hand is useless unless there is an attached muscle to move it. I cut all the control cables.


I actually had that thought at first. Then I had another thought and I could very well be wrong on this. Isn't it the back muscles and rear deltoid that control retraction of the arm and the chest controling extension. If so, wouldn't cutting the connection to the extensor muscle cause the arm to immediately retract?  Or at least allow them the ability to retract one last time.  Just a thought, but again I could very wrong. 




			
				kenpohands said:
			
		

> I appreciate your comments, I have trained with Mr. Pick on several occasions and I respect him highly. He knows me well, He gave me a set of custom axes, what a treasure. I briefly showed Marcus B. some Karambit at the IKC a few months ago, It was fun.


Marcus is a good guy and one hell of a Kenpoist. We just had him out this way last month to go over Mr. Picks revised Form 6.



			
				kenpohands said:
			
		

> REMEMBER the tech you critiqued was a DEMO PHOTO to show basic patterns and applications. WIDE movements were seen on the photo to show the movement.In reality we carve around very small circles, This is NOT a true picture of my Kenpo Karambit System. The only way to test it out and really get a feel is to hook up and exchange ideas in person. Alot will be self explained when you see and feel the blade work first hand. Hell its also really fun to use (train with).


Absolutely. I did mention that in my initial post. It's hard to get the full story from pics alone. From what I've heard about your past Kenpo work I'm sure it would feel like a ton of bricks.



			
				kenpohands said:
			
		

> As far as the "amost cut yourself on the fillet" ALmost is not a cut. I avoid as much wasted motion as possible, I know its close . but with practice and repitition you tend to cut the corners a bit.
> Give me a call and lets hook up and train. I would love that (626) 841-1290
> Respectfully
> Angelo Collado


I don't know...that's just too close for comfort for me. I like to keep my free hand away from the blade as much as possible. All I keep seeing in my head is having that adrenal dump and going for that strip and there goes the knife and...oh crap there goes my thumb! :xtrmshock That's just me though. I would enjoy working out with you very much but seeing as though I couldn't live further away from you if I tried that might not be a possibility. Good luck with everything. I'm sure we'll run into each other some time or another.

-Tom


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Sep 23, 2004)

Angelo-

How are you doing? I haven't seen you since Europe. I like your site.


----------



## kenpohands (Sep 23, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> I actually had that thought at first. Then I had another thought and I could very well be wrong on this. Isn't it the back muscles and rear deltoid that control retraction of the arm and the chest controling extension. If so, wouldn't cutting the connection to the extensor muscle cause the arm to immediately retract?  Or at least allow them the ability to retract one last time.  Just a thought, but again I could very wrong.
> -Tom



No not wrong at all. The Post deltoid and the Lats horizontally abduct the arm when it is straight, how ever in order to pull toward your chest you need a bicep tendon to do so. When I cut the pectoralis I also take out the biceps long head, this will inable the attacker to pull his arm back. The only way to attack is to swing the arm wide using the deltoids/Lats. The pain of that movement will be so intense that that would not likley happen. It would be opening up the cut in the pectoralis/Bicep tendon and the nerves that run through the area. PLUS I have that elbow checked and I can control the back swing.

I am an Orthopedic Physical therapist. I see pec and bicep ruptures all the time. I see what works and what does not first hand on the field. If you now add the devistation of an open cut wound, then you need to intensify a bit. 
All my applications are based on Kinesiological principles.
I hope this helps!


----------

