# All Alone



## Muwubu16858 (Oct 30, 2008)

Tonight was a tough night. I have been having a sort of faling out with my teacher over the past 2 weeks, and it led to us parting ways this evening. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, except to continue to teach my students as I always do. I don't know what else to say here.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 30, 2008)

You're not all alone if you have students.  If it is meant to be then you should make up with your teacher one day and find out what is the problem.  Is it you? Is it him? Is it a misunderstanding??  Don't let something as valuable as a teacher/student relationship be spoiled over minor issues.  On the other hand, do what you think is best even if it means training your students so well that one day your now weakest student gets so much better that it becomes clear just how good of a teacher you yourself are.  Think of your future developed students as an army.


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## stickarts (Oct 30, 2008)

Muwubu16858 said:


> Tonight was a tough night. I have been having a sort of faling out with my teacher over the past 2 weeks, and it led to us parting ways this evening. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, except to continue to teach my students as I always do. I don't know what else to say here.


 Sleep on it and see how you feel tomorrow. If there is anyway you can at least remain on good terms its worth the effort.


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## Master K (Oct 30, 2008)

Without knowing the details, it is tough to advise you.  Please keep in mind that someday every student must travel the path alone without the guidance of their instructor.  With that said, the question is more of one regarding timing, ie, is this the right time to travel the path alone.  If you would ever like to chat, please feel free to PM me as we share a very similar lineage.

Best of luck to you!


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## Dana (Oct 30, 2008)

I can understand your feeling of loss.  I lost an instructor very important to me last year due to their death.  Loss is painful, but life and training does go on.  You retain your knowledge and training ethic and can pass this on to your students. Unlike me, you have the potential to re-establish a relationship with your instructor at some level.  Relationships often change as we get older and change can be positive as well as negative.  Continue to breath, train and respect the roots of where you came from.  Many of us are personally involved in this art for the long-run because it is what we do and in many respects, a large part of who we are. Instructors, friends, students and the like will continue to come and go.  The tough part is staying on the path.  In the end, you are the one who has to make the journey.

I hope brighter days are ahead for you.

Dana


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## terryl965 (Oct 31, 2008)

The journey though the Arts is never easy, we have all been in some type of misfortune. Just remember everything happens for a reason. Best of luck.


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## foggymorning162 (Oct 31, 2008)

We all become sort of family and just like our real family we don't always get along. sometimes it is just a minor thing and we can kiss and make up, sometimes the wounds take a long time to heal, maybe with great effort you can help them heal maybe not, what you need to decide is whether or not it is worth it to you to put in the effort with a chance that there will be no reward or should you find a new path or family so to speak. I don't say that there is a chance you can't make up to discourage you from trying only so you will truly think about whether deep down you want to make it work.

Best of luck and remember your students are still your family and we here at MT are also an extension of your MA family


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## DMcHenry (Oct 31, 2008)

I broke with my instructor a few years ago and he has since passed on.  It was a difficult decision at the time, but I'm very happy being independent and feel far from alone.  I have many friends and there are many that offer their help and guidence.  In fact, it almost seems to help not being tied to another TSD specific organization - I remain friends with all of them.

Even though I'm aligned with an organization now, we are all still independent instructors helping each other out.  I'm happy now - there is life after leaving your instructor, its just hard anytime you have a relationship of any kind break up.  It's happended several times to me in the past.

Mac
"getting by with a little help from my friends"


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## zeeberex (Oct 31, 2008)

stickarts said:


> Sleep on it and see how you feel tomorrow. If there is anyway you can at least remain on good terms its worth the effort.




This is usually the best advice offerable. A contemplated response is better than a rash one.


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## Kwanjang (Oct 31, 2008)

I and two of my students of fourteen years (both cousins) had a falling out a couple of years ago. It was tough on the students- some left with him and his cousin. while some demostrated loyality to me. 

Thinking back- there were hasty decissions made by everyone. emotional reactions rather than thought out responses.

I tried my best to work out the differences between myself and what I considered my two top students- to no avail.

It is best if you can let a couple of days pass, write down your thoughts and communicate with your instructor respectfully. Then its up to him.

Sometimes, we have to remember-there is a season for everything, and sometimes the season is over.

Best Wishes!


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## Muwubu16858 (Nov 1, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your words of wisdom and support. I have talked to my teacher since, and have found that that ship has sailed. I am now in talks with my yudanja students about what we will do.  We may decide to look at several Organizations, but haven't made a list of whih ones we are interested yet. If anyone has suggestions, by all means, I will consider many options.


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## jks9199 (Nov 1, 2008)

Muwubu16858 said:


> Thanks everyone for your words of wisdom and support. I have talked to my teacher since, and have found that that ship has sailed. I am now in talks with my yudanja students about what we will do.  We may decide to look at several Organizations, but haven't made a list of whih ones we are interested yet. If anyone has suggestions, by all means, I will consider many options.


It would help to know what your base style is -- and what the conflict with your teacher was about.  That may shape advice or opinions regarding which association, if any, you should consider.  I'm not suggesting a blow-by-blow, but enough of a basic outline of the issue so that, for example, nobody suggests a competition oriented group when the problem was that you have no interest in competition.


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## Muwubu16858 (Nov 2, 2008)

No, our arguments were on a political/monetary basis, so it wouldn't effect which group I go to on the level of skill. Also, most of my students are gups, so any major change to curriculum reguarding sparring and forms is really not a problem for them. I have 4th Dan from TSD Moo Duk Kwan under Lee Kang Uk in England, 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan from Chon Jae Kyu in Korea, and 4th Dan from Yoon Kwai Byeong for Karate Do in Korea. I learned old school Moo Duk Kwan (Pre-US Federation) style from my teacher, with full contact sparring added via Oh Sae Joon. I also learned many hyung from the Jidokwan(not Taekwondo, but Kong Soo Do) which is a mix of Shudokan and Shitoryu. I never learned Chil Sung or Yuk Rho, but I don't think it'll be a problem for me to learn, as I pick up forms by the 3rd try anyway.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Nov 3, 2008)

Well it seems you have all the qualifications you need, wherever you go. 

Of course my perennial recommendation is joining the ITSDF, but of course I have a bias towards saying that, so there's really only suggestive force there. I will say that the ITSDF does have an emphasis on traditional training, so they wouldn't expect you to learn chil sung and yuk ro hyung...but again, I'm not really the one to give strong suggestions.

Good luck! Tang Soo!


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## YoungMan (Nov 3, 2008)

The problem I think you will face: No instructor with any credibility will take on and recommend to test a student who had a falling out with his instructor. 
If I leave my organization, I'm sure there are plenty of (low class) instructors who would be glad to take me into their organization.  They would, however, have no legitimate claim to promote me or recommend me to test me for higher rank because they are not considered my instructor. I don't know how it is in the Tang Soo Do world, but it can't be that much different than Taekwondo in these matters.
Hate to say it, but if you leave your instructor you are essentially cutting your own throat.


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## jks9199 (Nov 4, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The problem I think you will face: No instructor with any credibility will take on and recommend to test a student who had a falling out with his instructor.
> If I leave my organization, I'm sure there are plenty of (low class) instructors who would be glad to take me into their organization.  They would, however, have no legitimate claim to promote me or recommend me to test me for higher rank because they are not considered my instructor. I don't know how it is in the Tang Soo Do world, but it can't be that much different than Taekwondo in these matters.
> Hate to say it, but if you leave your instructor you are essentially cutting your own throat.


That's not necessarily true.

A lot depends on the nature of the falling out -- and how both parties reacted and handled it.  It depends on the style, too.


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## Tez3 (Nov 4, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The problem I think you will face: No instructor with any credibility will take on and recommend to test a student who had a falling out with his instructor.
> If I leave my organization, I'm sure there are plenty of (low class) instructors who would be glad to take me into their organization. They would, however, have no legitimate claim to promote me or recommend me to test me for higher rank because they are not considered my instructor. I don't know how it is in the Tang Soo Do world, but it can't be that much different than Taekwondo in these matters.
> Hate to say it, but if you leave your instructor you are essentially cutting your own throat.


 
Youngman, you have an 'interesting' way of putting things which comes out more insulting than I think you realise or mean!
I do TSD and I don't belong to any organisation. We manage just fine and don't need anyone to validate what we do.
What make you a legitimate black belt, a certificate from an organisation or the fact you can fight/defend yourself? 
I'm sure many organisations would take you as a student but why do they have to be low class just because they are in a different organisation to yours? Maybe like us they don't belong to any organisation, though I suspect you will now think we are not only low class but probably beyond the pale lol!
I left a poor instructor to go to a good club, far from cutting my own throat it has only done me good.


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## foggymorning162 (Nov 5, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> They would, however, have no legitimate claim to promote me or recommend me to test me for higher rank because they are not considered my instructor.


 
I don't understand your logic just because they did not promote you to where you are now why does that make them any less capable of determining your knowledge and ability or lack there of?


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## YoungMan (Nov 5, 2008)

If someone comes to me after having achieved Dan rank in the same art elsewhere (i.e TSD to TSD or TKD to TKD), they are welcome to practice in my class (provided they have a good attitude).  However, I have no legitimate claim to them as students, nor can I recommend them to test for higher Dan because they are officially considered students of the old organization. You cannot just leave one organization for another after having achieved Dan rank without certain etiquettes being followed.


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## DMcHenry (Nov 5, 2008)

If someone leaves an instructor or organization, they are no longer members and IMO do not need to be considered the property of someone else.  To me, thats the cultish mentality that messes a lot of people up and Ive seen in some organizations.
Personally, I work with a lot of orphaned instructors who left their previous instructors/organizations for one reason or another.  As long as they show they have a good attitude and willingness to learn, have the experience and otherwise meet all requirements Ill consider them for promotion.   It wouldnt happen quickly, as I dont care for instructor/organization hopping  Id want them to prove they are committed to our group before any promotions are recognized.   I believe it would be that way with most anyone.   
If someone leaves their instructor and commits to me (or my organization), then I wouldnt have a problem considering them my student.  One of my students just the other week saw her former instructor who asked her to come back  saying she would be a 2nd degree black belt now under him (shes a yellow belt with me).  Shes staying with me, and having to work very hard at her 8th gup level and very happy with where she is.   I never had the intent of trying to take her from her former instructor, in fact I encouraged her and even attended some of her gradings at her former dojang.  But her and her husband (being very good friends and co-workers) started part time with me so I could help them get better in their other class to being full time only with me  starting over in the process.
Each case and individual are different, and since I only teach private lessons and work with other instructors I can be very selective in who I choose to work with.


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## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> If someone comes to me after having achieved Dan rank in the same art elsewhere (i.e TSD to TSD or TKD to TKD), they are welcome to practice in my class (provided they have a good attitude). However, I have no legitimate claim to them as students, nor can I recommend them to test for higher Dan because they are officially considered students of the old organization. You cannot just leave one organization for another after having achieved Dan rank without certain etiquettes being followed.


 
So if someone moves from one part of the country to another and joins you, you won't consider them as students, likewise if their school closes down or instructor retires or dies that's it also? Do you 'allow' your students to train with anyone else? Are they allowed to cross train or are they your property totally?


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## foggymorning162 (Nov 5, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> If someone comes to me after having achieved Dan rank in the same art elsewhere (i.e TSD to TSD or TKD to TKD), they are welcome to practice in my class (provided they have a good attitude). However, I have no legitimate claim to them as students, nor can I recommend them to test for higher Dan because they are officially considered students of the old organization. You cannot just leave one organization for another after having achieved Dan rank without certain etiquettes being followed.


 So if you were to leave your orginazation for any reason are you saying that you would stop training or that you would forever keep the same rank because your current org. owns you? I understand making someone prove that they deserve to be promoted and making them wait a little longer than someone who has been training with you from the beginning but to say that they can never be promoted because they "aren't your student" that's a good way to make them no longer your student. People leave for many reasons sometimes no one is at fault should they be forever stuck because of it?


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## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2008)

My instructor has been to many clubs and has grades in quite a few styles, he was in the army and posted frequently over his 22 years service so was never able to stay at one club more than three years. The same is true of many of our students, we've never been able to grade anyone up to black belt as they have had to move on, we've had students from other styles join us for the same reason. We always allow incoming students to keep the same rank as they had gained in their last club, we are also as flexible as we can be in their gradings with us. Not a purist attitude I know but we teach martial arts, how to fight and how to defend yourself. Our techniques may not be 'pure' TSD but they are effective. We've also learnt a lot from people coming in with different styles.


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## Dana (Nov 5, 2008)

The martial arts, like any other organizational relationship, is about personalities, politics, and occasionally (or more than not), about money.  That is a reality most often than not.  If you do not think so, then you are very lucky, are low on the proverbial totem pole, or simply have your head in the sand.  Understand that I say this with a certain amount of humor and some experience as a head instructor, mostly with the good side of things.

If someone leaves their instructor because of personal disagreements, does it mean they are not loyal?  Maybe or maybe not, most likely it is just time to move on.  If you have not walked in those shoes you may not be qualified to comment.  Like Mac said, students are not feudal serfs.  If these folks know their stuff and are willing to learn, they are students worth teaching.  If they are so arrogant that they can not put themselves under anothers scrutiny, then sure, go somewhere else or be independent.

I personally think people can use instruction from seniors and criticism to improve, most importantly in their particular style  I think going independent is fine for some, but independents occasionally live in glass houses; they just do not want anyone telling them they look like s**t. Or, they just got tired of administrative and fiscal headaches.  I like an instructor who instructs and an organization that does not charge you an arm and a leg.  My current one seems to fit that bill so far.

Just my opinion; yours will probably be different!

Dana


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## Montecarlodrag (Nov 6, 2008)

Muwubu16858 said:


> Tonight was a tough night. I have been having a sort of faling out with my teacher over the past 2 weeks, and it led to us parting ways this evening. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, except to continue to teach my students as I always do. I don't know what else to say here.


 
We have experienced the same thing as you. I have myself parted ways 2 times with 2 instructors.
It's hard at first, but you will overcome it soon. Just don't let your students feel like you are nothing without your instructor. Let them know the situation, but act as you always do, teach them as usual. Let them know you will have a new master in the future and the changes are going for the better.
Remember they depend on you, and the students always look upon their instructor for confidence and assurance. If they feel even a little bit of fear on you, they may start to leave.
Don't ever talk bad things about your former instructor, even if it's true, you may regret it in the future.

You will find a new teacher soon and continue to grow. Maybe you'd learn cool things while you're alone walking the path of the warrior.

Tang Soo!


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