# Defending against a dog



## KenpoTess (Sep 29, 2003)

We have a 80 plus pound black lab who loves to roughhouse.  Those jaws are strong and fast, as are her legs~!
This got me to thinking, (yeah I know dangerous past time 

If you are out somewhere, and attacked by a big feral dog, (The animal is snarling, and you have no idea if it has contracted rabies, distemper etc) 

How would you handle this, Kenpo-wise?  (for other MA's.. how about you?)

I'm looking for some scenarios here,  Not just big guys kicking the teeth down the animals throat.  


Tess


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2003)

Well, my game plan is simply this... Turn and face the dog in a horse stance with your hands up. Yell "no" and "go home". Luckily this has worked most of the time for me. If the dog refuses to back down, I understand that by facing off with the dog, it will force tha dog to go for your throat. At this time, god willing, you are supposed to grab the dog by the jowls and thrust your knee up through the chest cavity. From what I understand the dog should not survive the incident. I don't really want to find out.


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## jeffkyle (Sep 29, 2003)

Whatever it takes to A) Get away from the dog;  B)  Win the fight if there has to be one; C)  Hope there are no rabies or other diseases that are involved...if so and I can win the fight; D) Run my butt to the doctor as fast as I can.


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## headkick (Sep 29, 2003)

First off, never turn and run from a large dog.  That's an invitation to attack.  You're also supposed to turn sidways to it, like a good neutral bow or even a fighting horse.  Don't look it the eye.   Making eye contact, squaring up to it, supposedly that's a challenge.  Back off slowly, no quick movements.  There are people out there who teach this stuff in elementary schools because kids are more likely to get attacked.  Failing that, the technique "Center Mass" using a 9mm is always a good one.


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## MisterMike (Sep 29, 2003)

There is some information out there on dealing with stray/aggressive animals. There are ways to try to walk away and not provoke it.

But should it attack, my preference would be the famed kick to the chops if I could get it in there. The difference between a sick dog and human, other than the obvious anatomical ones, are its skill at biting but also its lack of skill at punching, grabbing and kicking.

A kick/punch to the head of a dog might mean getting bit, but not so as with a human. So you have to be careful at what you do throw out there and commit to. I've been in a few situations with an agressive dog, but I usually used something in my surroundings to keep it from me.(My bike or large stick or both )

I once cracked a large dog over the head a couple years ago with a small log from the sie of the road. Broke it right over his head! An rightly so, as I did fear for my safety and my little brother-in-law's.


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## jeffkyle (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I once cracked a large dog over the head a couple years ago with a small log from the sie of the road. Broke it right over his head! An rightly so, as I did fear for my safety and my little brother-in-law's. *



That was probably the first time that dog experienced Irony!  Or poetic justice!


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## satans.barber (Sep 29, 2003)

I once read that if a dog gets on top of you, you're supposed to take hold of its two front legs and rip them apart, and that stops it's heart or tears it's heart or something, apart from that I've never really read or considered much in the way of dogs.

I would think that kicking is the way to go though, strying to do anything with your hands is just asking to get a finger or two bitten off. Maybe a strong, low roundhouse to its head could kill or stun it, or maybe even break its neck?

A friend of mine once had a dog set on him by some racist git in London, and he stabbed the thing, but if didn't die it ran of with his knife stuck in it!

Ian.


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## MisterMike (Sep 29, 2003)

> A friend of mine once had a dog set on him by some racist git in London, and he stabbed the thing, but if didn't die it ran of with his knife stuck in it!



Here in the States they let us carry guns. Of course now if you shoot the dog, the owners try to sew you.


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## jeffkyle (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Here in the States they let us carry guns. Of course now if you shoot the dog, the owners try to sew you.
> 
> *



I have never been sewn by someone.  
Maybe you meant sue.


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## kenpo12 (Sep 29, 2003)

> But should it attack, my preference would be the famed kick to the chops if I could get it in there. The difference between a sick dog and human, other than the obvious anatomical ones, are its skill at biting but also its lack of skill at punching, grabbing and kicking.



First off this is the second time I've seen this come up on a MA forum and I cannot believe how ignorant most people are when it comes to dogs attacking.  Dogs pick up on motion, so if you throw a kick, punch, reach out to grab or what ever, you are more than likely going to get bit.  If you come across a stray dog your best bet is to find a stick, just in case you do end up needing it.  If you have on a jacket you may want to wrap it around you arm just in cast the dog comes after you, give it something to go after, otherwise the dog will choose the target and that's not always going to turn out well.  
  Like others have said don't turn and run, always face the dog but don't stare it down.  If the dog is on what it feels is his territory make sure not to cross into the dogs space.  Most of the time yelling at the dog in a stern voice and telling it to "go home" will usually end the problem.  If the do continues to approach you in an aggressive manner slowly back off and with that stick you should have picked up tap the dog on the end of the muzzle if you have too.  If that doesn't stop the dog and he attacks try to "feed" the dog the stick rather than your arm or another body part, but if the dog really wants you, you are in trouble.  If you can try to stay still if you can because the more you move and flail the worse damage the dog will do.  If you can get ahold of the dogs throat you may be able to get it off of you but trust me, if a dog wants to hurt you, it will.  
   I used to live in a neigborhood with a lot of "loose" dogs and I was never bitten.  I was growled at, and had my dog almost attacked but, I always carried a rattan stick just in case which I only had to actually use once.  Just remember, punches, kicks and the like were intended to work on humans, it's our use of weapons and tools that moved us up on the food chain, so don't think you can punch out a 110lb dog.


Matt


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## kenpo12 (Sep 29, 2003)

> I once read that if a dog gets on top of you, you're supposed to take hold of its two front legs and rip them apart, and that stops it's heart or tears it's heart or something,



Uh, right.   You try that, cuz it's not going to be easy to pull when the dog is crushing your face in its mouth.


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## KenpoMatt (Sep 29, 2003)

I can speak from experience on this one. I have been attacked by dogs twice. 

The first time I was walking to catch a 6am bus. As i was crossing the street a trained attack dog (doberman pincher) ran out of the ware house he was guarding into the street behind me. I didn't see or hear him. He grabbed my arm and dragged me to the ground in the middle of the intersection. He clamped onto my arm and didn't let go, just like you see on those police training videos. He was snarling and shaking his head. There was blood gushing all over my trapped left arm. Funny - I wasn't scared. I was *FURIOUS*. I managed to stand up, reach around and throw some serious punches into the dog's ribs. I extended my knuckles the way you would to give someone a noogie. When the noogie-style punches landed I could feel the bones crack and separate. The dog quickly let go and did nothing else to me.

The second time I was walking my golden retriever in a residential neighborhood. Out of nowhere *two* very large rotweillers sprinted toward us. They had no chains or collars. But, I do not believe they were strays. The came from the direction of a reputed drug house. Anyway, one stopped directly in front of us. The other was to my left and was attempting to circle behind me and my dog. The snarled, foamed and snapped. I desperatly wanted to run but knew it was the worst thing I could have done. I did everything I could to keep both dogs in front of us. I was semi-successful. I yelled at them, I backed away from them but they got continuously closer and more aggressive. One of the dogs grabbed my golden by the neck and bit hard. I could see blood surfacing up through her coat. I picked up a large, thick stick and slammed it down on top of the 2nd dog's head. I cocked back and played smashed its head again, this time on the jaw. Then, a 3rd time on the back of its head/neck. All of this happened while my golden was being mauled by the 1st dog. The 2nd dog backed off a little but continued to snap and snarl. Then, the 1st dog simply let go of my golden. To this day, I still don't know why. 

We walked away backwards, while facing the 2 dogs. After we got about 100 ft away the dogs just turned and trotted away. I'm still very confused by that attack. I suppose it isn't too difficult to figure out why the attack started? But, more importantly, why did it stop? It was very weird. 

The most important lesson I learned from both of these attacks is DO NOT RUN. Do not do it no matter how scared you are. Other than that, use your head and look for the soft targets. If the dog is gonna bite you let it have your arm. A few puncture wounds on the fore arm is much better than having your vital areas torn out.


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## MA-Caver (Sep 29, 2003)

Some of the replies I've seen here have been good ones... DO NOT RUN is the best ones in so far. Dogs can sprint up to 35 mph over a short distance... can you do 40? NOT! This also puts your back and hindquarters to the dogs weapons, jaws and teeth. Remember that a dog even a small one has more psi in it's jaws than a human. 
I've been attacked, charged, and threatened by several dogs in my life. This mainly comes from no car and having to walk all the time... not necessarily a bad thing...except in the dead of winter...brrr.
My father has likewise been attacked when he was younger and his stories and methods helped me considerably when it came my turn. 
One dog a full grown (beautiful) german shep. Leaped over it's fence and made me it's target. I, being the only one on the street that evening didn't have a choice if I wanted to be or not. The dog snarled loud enough for me to hear and turn around to see it land on the sidewalk running.  30 feet away I had no choice but to face it. I guessed (rightly...thank God) that he would jump to my chest and knock me down. I went with it and managed to get one hand on it's throat and the other grabbing the fur on the side of it's face. Luck not design. On the ground I was able to wrap my legs around it's torso and ...well anyone who has wrestled with me will tell ya that the game is over once that happens.  Squeezing so to minimize the intake of breath and the dog snapping and snarling at my face... yes I was scared sh--less and probably hollering and screaming right along with the animal... I don't remember but I must've as neighbors came out to see what the hell was going on.  The dog's owner?? Who knows...
I ended up smashing the dog on the nose with a open palm slash.  This took the fight right out of him and now he was struggling to get away from me.  I let go and got up quick. 
The dog took off and went back to it's territory/house/whatever! Cowering by the gate of the fence... it couldn't get in...too bad.

Neighbors came by and helped check me out. I was bruised from the fall to the sidewalk and was probably experiencing a 200+ pulse rate but other than that no marks or bites. 
I told one of the neighbors that the owner had best take the dog to the vet when he gets home... it wouldn't be able to breathe with a broken nose. 
Had to throw away a nice shirt because of the tears and blood from the dog. Should've sued. 

Point is that dogs do have vunerable spots... it's nose is THE most sensitive.  Next spot (c'mon guys... you know this one) for male dogs anyway... ding!  This is of course during close quarters if the dog is on you... even if it's biting.. a simple grab and hard yanking twist will teach that old dog a new trick. 

Wrapping your legs around the animal and squeezing for all you got will help. 
If your hand is in the animals mouth... pull down. Dogs bite UP not down and gettting your hand inside past the cainines they can't pull away either... smack it on the nose ... hard.  If that doesn't work then grab it (the black nostrils) and pull.  

Kicking at a dog? Chances are you're gonna miss. Especially if the dog is coming in low and moving fast.  Remember even a big rotty is smaller than an average human and is powered by four legs not two, it's short (powerful) neck and broad jaws show exactly what it's designed for... fighting. Instinctively it knows how to fight far better than you do. 

Your hands and your agility (and a cool head) are what's gonna save you from serious injury when a dog attacks. 

Yelling NO does work (sometimes)  I've found out.. and it helps! I've never had more than one come after me... dunno what I do with two of them. Hope I don't ever find out. 

End of rant.

Kenpo Matt how did your Golden turn out afterwards... The Rott was obviously trying to break it's neck... I am assuming that there must've been major tissue damage... I felt bad for your dog hope he's alright.


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## MisterMike (Sep 29, 2003)

> First off this is the second time I've seen this come up on a MA forum and I cannot believe how ignorant most people are when it comes to dogs attacking. Dogs pick up on motion, so if you throw a kick, punch, reach out to grab or what ever, you are more than likely going to get bit. If you come across a stray dog your best bet is to find a stick, just in case you do end up needing it. If you have on a jacket you may want to wrap it around you arm just in cast the dog comes after you, give it something to go after, otherwise the dog will choose the target and that's not always going to turn out well.



I assume you mean me? Based on your advise, what if its summertime on the beach? Where's your coat and stick then? The question was posed on a Martial Art forum, and empty hand art forum at that. What little I did suggest by way of punching and kicking made more sense than you.

What I did NOT say was:

Kick it in the head.
Kick it in the mouth.
Kick it in the a$$

Get my point? I also started off by implying it's best not to provoke it and just try to sleek away. The kicking would be a last resort, since you may not be able to:

a) run away
b) get to shelter
c) grab a weapon

The loins are the easiest place to injure an animal because ribs break reallll easy. If you want to wrap your coat up and wrestle with my father's 150 lb German, by all means.


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## Karasu Tengu (Sep 29, 2003)

One of my many Military Security duties was that of K-9 Decoy.  You know the fool who puts on the padded suit and lets the 100 lb German Shepard guard dogs attack them.  That was me.

I guess your defense would depend on the breed.  Rots and Pit are being bread as fighting dogs so their instinct follow suit.  They bite and hold and crush.  Shepards, Pincers and Collies bite and tear more than crush.  All dogs have the chasing instinct even more prevelant in packs.

One of the things I found is that dogs fight like they play so experimnet with you pet (but don't hurt them).  I do backward roll/throws against my dog when we play.  Also, dogs do not like  haveing a fist rammed down their throat (Lion Tamers use this trick).  The other thing is that a dog will take the target of opertunity.  If I can do nothing else I will offer a suki (false target usually my arm as in decoy training) to the animal and get it into a positon.  Then kick/punch combinations will be easier to execute. 
This is a last resort technique I have used only once on a St. Bernard but here's what happens.  Again it depends on the breed.  Just as the dog takes the arm (they typically slow down or stop to deal with the target which had been my decoy experience) I bring the other arm around and on the back of its neck just below the spine/skull connection.  Then as violently as I can I "jack" the target arm up rolling the dogs head back and over my other arm.  Again depending upon the breed, this snaps the neck at about C-3 or the Atlas bone. 

 Personally, I would kill any dog that would attack me because it obviously cannot be around people...especially children.  Public safety comes first.  What if it had been a child in KenpoMatt's case instead of a trained MA?

There have been many good points posted here.  Definitley something to look at or add to one's training.


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## KenpoMatt (Sep 29, 2003)

> _MACaver_
> *Kenpo Matt how did your Golden turn out afterwards... The Rott was obviously trying to break it's neck... I am assuming that there must've been major tissue damage... I felt bad for your dog hope he's alright.*



Thanks for asking. She turned out fine. She required a bunch of stitches, and shots. Fortunatley the rotties weren't rabid. She had a sore neck for a few weeks. Ffortunatley (again), the dog only managed to tear her scruff & didn't hit bone or vital organs. We were both very lucky that day.


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## kenpo12 (Sep 29, 2003)

> I assume you mean me? Based on your advise, what if its summertime on the beach? Where's your coat and stick then? The question was posed on a Martial Art forum, and empty hand art forum at that. What little I did suggest by way of punching and kicking made more sense than you.




If I'm at the beach, kicking with bare feet is an even worse idea.  If you're on the beach I bet you'd have a towel.  You can improvise, it doesn't have to be a jacket. If you're a martial artist your best asset should be your ability to be creative yet smart about defending yourself and attempting to kick a big dog that's coming after you is going to get you hurt.

  I don't know what I said that didn't make sense, I'd like to know specifically what you dissagree with because I have used all of the tactics I mentioned, except for one that was a suggestion I got from a former MP dog handler.

You say you didn't specify where to kick it, but if a dog is attacking you, your choices are pretty much limited to the head, and like I said you're going to get bit.

As far a wrestling your fathers 150lb German Shepherd, you may want to double check the breed, cuz German Shepherds aren't that big unless you have a mixed breed or it's a Shiloh Shepherd, or possibly a King Shepherd.  Unless you're just exaggerating, in which case makes me wonder how honest you are in the rest of your posts.

Matt


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## kenpo12 (Sep 29, 2003)

> One of my many Military Security duties was that of K-9 Decoy. You know the fool who puts on the padded suit and lets the 100 lb German Shepard guard dogs attack them. That was me



Where did you go to school/AIT to become a K-9 handler?

Matt


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## kenpo2dabone (Sep 29, 2003)

I have a friend that is involved with Shutzhound training and he asked me this question once. He agreed that my chances would be pretty good. Given a dog who is intent on biting and is charging at you full speed has to live under the same physice that we do. I play with my dog in the back yard all the time using Kenpo (in play). Granted my dogs intention is not to bite me but I find it fun and informative. My dog will charge me  and jump at me and all I have to do is parry him and move off line. When a dog is in the air it can only go in the direction it was already traveling in. Now comes the fun part. He lands and in one motion is able to turn and come at me again. I do the same thing and shove him to the side with another perry and move off line. The problems arise when the dog stays on its feet and does not leave the ground. I have had a dog charge me and I kept my ground facing the dog and all it did was change direction a run around me. I continued to face it and the dog stood its ground as a stood mine. The dog lost interest and left. Now, what if the dog is able to get its teeth in you. If the dog is able to bite my arm I view it as a wrestling match and would try to stay on top. I would drive my arm deeper into the dogs mouth so that it can't bit as hard and it causes a gag reflex which makes the dog want to release. I have done this with my own dog and it seems to work well but again we are plaing and he has no intention of hurting me nor do I have any intention of hurting him. In this process I would be doing my best to gouge the dogs eyes and snap it's neck. This is assuming that I get the opprtunity to be ontop of the dog.  I would do my best to make sure that dog does not survive the confrontation. The other problem is when the dog does sink its teeth in, if it has the oppertunity to get on its feet and shake its head. You are probably going to need something to hit it with. These ideas are based on my own experimentation with my own dog in loving manner both on my part and on the part of my dog so they are not totaly realisti and talking to people who train police dogs for a living. I have been attacked by dogs twice in my life but I was too young to do anything about it. In my adult life I have been charged a couple of time and merely standing my ground and facing the dog has done the trick. No attack occured. I have to say that it does make the sphincter pucker a little. 

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF


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## kenpo12 (Sep 29, 2003)

> In this process I would be doing my best to gouge the dogs eyes and snap it's neck.



kenpo 2dabone,

   I agree with most of what wrote except for breaking a dogs neck.  It does depend on the dog, but dogs necks are very strong and you would find it damn near impossible to break a dogs neck while it's biting you, especially if you're talking about something like a Rottie, American Staffordshire terrier, or a Pit Bull type breed.  

Matt


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## arnisador (Sep 29, 2003)

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2464


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## CoolKempoDude (Sep 29, 2003)

this is an excellence topic and i find this topic informative. Learning a lot from reading this thread.

i personally own and like dog but never thought of fighting with another BAD and MEAN dog


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## Akashiro Tamaya (Sep 30, 2003)

It has been thousands of years since mankind has had to fear for its collective safety from animal attack. In today's urban society, threat of animal attack has been all but snuffed out; except for dogs which, in spite of a vast majority of those gentle and domesticated, continue to be the biggest animal threat to urban dwellers. Most dogs are pleasant animals, deserving of the name: "man's best friend". The following advice is for those rare but terrifying moments when a dog attack does occur. 

Avoid eye contact with an aggressive dog. 

If you are jogging, stop jogging and walk by the dog, avoiding eye contact and sudden movement. 

Avoid the temptation to rebuke the owner of an aggressive dog for allowing their menacing and unleashed dog to remain in your direct path. Aggressive dogs are often a reflection of their owner's character. 

If you notice the aggressive dog unleashed again, contact the police with a good description of the dog, the owner and time of day. Try to remember the dog's name if it was called during your presence. 

If the dog runs towards you exhibiting aggressive behaviour (growling or barking), stand your ground without sudden movement. Brace yourself and command the dog as if you were its owner: "No!" "Down!" "Sit!" "Stay!" Do this repeatedly. Do not raise your hands in a fight stance prematurely as this may antagonize the dog and you might lose your one chance at stopping the attacking dog through commands. 

If the dog is small and presents no danger for your neck area, you may want to try to kick it. A good blow to the nose or to the body will stop most small dogs. 

If a large dog attacks, take a fight stance with one leg in front of the other to maximize balance and protect your inner body. If you are athletic, you may want to use your foot as a primary weapon. This response could mean jeopardizing your balance. Should you fall, you lose your height advantage to a dog. 

Special note for pit bulls: these dogs can be unusually aggressive. Some experts recommend that the best response to an attacking pit bull is to fall to the ground, roll into a ball with your chin tucked in and cover your face, ears and backs of your neck with your hands. Keep your knees pulled up into your chest. The idea is to play dead and hope that the dog will give up the attack. 

{Editor's note: we have received many e-mails on this topic. Typical is the following: "When (pit bulls attack) a person or other animal, their first instinct is to grab ... and hold on. If laying down on the ground, there is a higher possibility of the dog biting in to a fatal spot. Standing upright is a much better strategy."} 
A large dog may lunge for your throat. Protect this area of your body first and foremost with your arm tucked into your throat as far as you can without pulling back. 

Punch the dog on the nose as hard as you can. Twist or pull the dog's ears. The dog's eyes are another soft spot which you should attack if required to defend yourself. Another stregy is to kick the dog in the rib cage. This will wind it and could stun it enough to ward off any more attacks. Yell for help. 

If you frequently encounter stray or aggressive dogs, pepper spray or electronic whistles (adjusted at a frequency to cause dog's extreme discomfort) are inexpensive and excellent safeguards against dog attack. 

If an attacking dog appears to be aimlessly wandering, biting at stationery objects, wild-eyed or with a thick ropy saliva covering it's chest, it may have rabies. Note that dogs may have rabies even if not exhibiting these symptoms so in all cases of dog bites especially if the skin has been broken, seek medical attention immediately. Rabies is a universally fatal disease if left untreated. You must first ensure that the dog is quarantined and observed for symptoms of rabies. Don't try to corral the dog yourself; call the police. If you have any doubts about rabies, consult a doctor for possible anti-rabies injections. 

If not then get one of these:

http://www.selfdefensearmory.com/dogattackkit.htm


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## MisterMike (Sep 30, 2003)

> As far a wrestling your fathers 150lb German Shepherd, you may want to double check the breed, cuz German Shepherds aren't that big unless you have a mixed breed or it's a Shiloh Shepherd, or possibly a King Shepherd. Unless you're just exaggerating, in which case makes me wonder how honest you are in the rest of your posts.



At last check, he was around 140, so I did stretch it a bit. He came from a K-9 camp at a correctional facility as a pup. So he's purebread. As for coming on MT and calling someone you do not know ignorant, I'd have to question your motives and validity of your posts.

I've been attacked by dogs since I was a kid and was never bit. I'll stand by my record.



> If I'm at the beach, kicking with bare feet is an even worse idea. If you're on the beach I bet you'd have a towel. You can improvise, it doesn't have to be a jacket. If you're a martial artist your best asset should be your ability to be creative yet smart about defending yourself and attempting to kick a big dog that's coming after you is going to get you hurt.



Who said anything about being barefoot? I chose the beach scenario to put you where there would be no sticks and most likely wearing no coat. The question was posed without specifics as to environment, and as I said before, being posted in a Kenpo forum, implied to me that the answer would have to do with defending yourself with the use of your hands and feet. Which is why I answered the way I did.


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## KenpoTess (Sep 30, 2003)

Thanks everyone for your viewpoints 

There's alot of healthy good information in here and there will always be controversy amongst people .. how to handle any situation.. how to pronounce a word will vary from state to state, country to country.. Nobody is wrong..  

It's fantastic to have such varied information and again .. I thank you .. 

Tess


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## kenpo12 (Sep 30, 2003)

MisterMike,

  I didn't call anyone on this board ignorant. 



> I cannot believe how ignorant most people are when it comes to dogs attacking.



 I was making a general statement, and not about anyone here so don't think I have a hidden motive.


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## KenpoTess (Sep 30, 2003)

Alls good


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## Akashiro Tamaya (Sep 30, 2003)

The sure fire way of a great defense against dogs of all sizes is..

Carry the biggest  raw T-Bone Steak in you pocket, Back pack or purse..Make sure it is approved by the USDA... 

This is a 100 percent guarantee...


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## MisterMike (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *MisterMike,
> 
> I didn't call anyone on this board ignorant.
> ...



No problem. I found your original post was pretty informative too. :cheers:


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## Kroy (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *The sure fire way of a great defense against dogs of all sizes is..
> 
> Carry the biggest  raw T-Bone Steak in you pocket, Back pack or purse..Make sure it is approved by the USDA...
> ...



Beef Jerky is easier to carry.


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## Akashiro Tamaya (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kroy _
> *Beef Jerky is easier to carry. *



True, just makes sure its a spicy one...


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## MA-Caver (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *The sure fire way of a great defense against dogs of all sizes is..
> 
> Carry the biggest  raw T-Bone Steak in you pocket, Back pack or purse..Make sure it is approved by the USDA...
> ...



Not necessarily Tamaya-san. When I train a dog it's all the way and that includes turning down tasty tid-bits from strangers or even friends. It's hard to do but possible. Police and Military K-9's are trained this extensively so that they don't receive a poisoned bait. So one doesn't know if the dog has that extensive training or not... odds are in your favor that they didn't. 
But it's like the guy you meet on the street... you just don't know their training until you get right down to it. 

:asian:


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## MA-Caver (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *True, just makes sure its a spicy one... *


heh heh... ya, you can put it in a zip-loc baggie soaking in Dave's Gourmet Insanity Sauce (or any other SUPER-hot sauce) ... those habenaro peppers are killers. :xtrmshock


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## CoolKempoDude (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *The sure fire way of a great defense against dogs of all sizes is..
> 
> Carry the biggest  raw T-Bone Steak in you pocket, Back pack or purse..Make sure it is approved by the USDA...
> ...



what will you say when people ask you why you carry it ALL the time ?

I hope you don't say It is my "SNACK BAR"?  

T=BONE steak can be a deadly weapon if you throw it to somebody instead of DOG


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## Kroy (Oct 1, 2003)

I dont know about the dog but I'd fall for the T-Bone steak trick.


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## Karazenpo (Oct 3, 2003)

I've been in law enforcement since 1977 and am also a police training officer and was involved in the training of police dogs. The Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson) have put on many Street Survival seminars only for law enforcment officers and military since the 1980's. They also have published several books. They really research their subjects and are pro martial arts for police training as seen by their many guest instructors. They state that a black belt karate expert would stand about a 90 per cent chance of surviving an attack from a trained Doberman. Now, they say survive, not win. I have raised German Shepards and have had Dobbies and Rotties in the past and I'll say this through the experience of breaking up dog fights. If they animal is totally committed and I mean COMMITED, then good luck! Animals are like people. We all know that if an opponent is totally committed then we have our work cut out for us just to survive. Even bullets have been known to be unable to penetrate the skulls and will glance around it instead, not only in animals but even humans. One suspect was shot 33 times with a 9mm in an armed robbery before he stopped returning fire.  All I can say, if the dog goes for your throat, feed him your arm, at least you can survive that (just like knife defenses).  We were also told that you can hold him in such a way ( behind his front legs) so that his jaws can't reach you, get him off the ground ( they become disorientated), throw him (if possible from high ground to a lower point) and run like hell! I've seen committed dogs take blows from shovels and not go down. One pit bull took 13 rounds from a 9mm before dropping in a committed attack. So, believe me, some of the techniques you hear about are ludicrious, they'll never work unless the animal is not really committed. Hey, some big, tough looking guys with one minor whack go running, some dogs are the same way. The key word is committed and you really won't find that out untill its too late. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras


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## theletch1 (Oct 3, 2003)

> Not necessarily Tamaya-san. When I train a dog it's all the way and that includes turning down tasty tid-bits from strangers or even friends. It's hard to do but possible. Police and Military K-9's are trained this extensively so that they don't receive a poisoned bait. So one doesn't know if the dog has that extensive training or not... odds are in your favor that they didn't.


 My ex-wife's dad had a trained shepard that would not take anything from anyone unless it was offered in the left hand.  The reasoning being that the majority of the population is right handed and should they attempt to poison the dog with a treat before breaking into the house they would offer it with the right hand.

I have a boxer that I fight with on a regular basis.  I've found my aikido training great for blending with his attack and getting out of the way of his lunge.  I've even been able to redirect him about 90 degrees while he is still in flight.  The raw power possessed by some of the larger breeds is truly amazing.  I just don't want to have to defend myself against one of them but the suggestions given thus far in this thread have at least given me somethings to think about.


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## Michael Billings (Oct 3, 2003)

Thanks for the insight.  It is good to hear from someone with experience in this arena.  

By feeding him the arm, (assume I know the drill they do for attack dogs on the arm), are you actually trying to force the arm down his throat or lock the jaws?  I am assuming a bite and tear, not just snapping jaws.

-MB


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## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 3, 2003)

I've got a 154lb Bullmastiff with a 32" head.   There really isn't much short of a gun or knife that'll stop him should he decide to move on you, I don't care how much MA training you have.  

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Karazenpo (Oct 3, 2003)

Hi Michael, No, not at all. Feeding the arm is just the lesser of two evils, in a sense. If you feel you are definitely going to be bit as he lunges for your throat, you give him the arm and hope even though you're bit you can get do something to get free and run. Obviously, if he takes it to the throat, its lights out! It's like defending against the knife, you're most likely going to be cut defending yourself so you utilize the areas of the hands and arms in protecting and defending that if cut are survivable. Same premise. In the stress & realism of the situation, ramming your hand down is throat would most likely never happen. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras


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## MA-Caver (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Karazenpo _
> *I've been in law enforcement since 1977 and am also a police training officer and was involved in the training of police dogs. The Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson) have put on many Street Survival seminars only for law enforcment officers and military since the 1980's. They also have published several books. They really research their subjects and are pro martial arts for police training as seen by their many guest instructors. They state that a black belt karate expert would stand about a 90 per cent chance of surviving an attack from a trained Doberman. Now, they say survive, not win. I have raised German Shepards and have had Dobbies and Rotties in the past and I'll say this through the experience of breaking up dog fights. If they animal is totally committed and I mean COMMITED, then good luck! Animals are like people. We all know that if an opponent is totally committed then we have our work cut out for us just to survive. Even bullets have been known to be unable to penetrate the skulls and will glance around it instead, not only in animals but even humans. One suspect was shot 33 times with a 9mm in an armed robbery before he stopped returning fire.  All I can say, if the dog goes for your throat, feed him your arm, at least you can survive that (just like knife defenses).  We were also told that you can hold him in such a way ( behind his front legs) so that his jaws can't reach you, get him off the ground ( they become disorientated), throw him (if possible from high ground to a lower point) and run like hell! I've seen committed dogs take blows from shovels and not go down. One pit bull took 13 rounds from a 9mm before dropping in a committed attack. So, believe me, some of the techniques you hear about are ludicrious, they'll never work unless the animal is not really committed. Hey, some big, tough looking guys with one minor whack go running, some dogs are the same way. The key word is committed and you really won't find that out untill its too late. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras *



Yes, something to definitely think about. Scary, because a dog can do serious physical damage with it's teeth and jaws. There's a lot to be said for committment, in this case when it comes to attacking dogs. No real way to tell.  So it happens... problem is like most things, don't always know when/where. 
Joe, you were saying that  





> So, believe me, some of the techniques you hear about are ludicrious, they'll never work unless the animal is not really committed.


. Ok I'll buy that as I've read a few scenarios that made me chuckle as well. From my experience with dogs that have attacked, I never found out if the animal was committed or not. I was; committed that the sucker wasn't going to hurt me, so I came out on top every time. 
Offerning my arm for a teething ring isn't my idea of coming out on top. I'll do what I can to keep those teeth and jaws from coming into any contact with me. My thinking is that if the animal gets ahold of flesh and has blood it'll make him/her that much more driven. It's an animal right? Pure animal instincts ... something that we threw away as we walked towards the dawn of civilization. 
The techinques I described worked on large dogs. Knowing the sensitive areas of an attacking animal and focusing your (counter) attack on that... I believe will increase chances of survival and reduce injuries. Either way it's a dog, just a dog so do what damage you can to it so it'll stop it's attack.


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## kenpo2dabone (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MACaver _
> *Not necessarily Tamaya-san. When I train a dog it's all the way and that includes turning down tasty tid-bits from strangers or even friends. It's hard to do but possible. Police and Military K-9's are trained this extensively so that they don't receive a poisoned bait. So one doesn't know if the dog has that extensive training or not... odds are in your favor that they didn't.
> But it's like the guy you meet on the street... you just don't know their training until you get right down to it.
> 
> :asian: *



I would just like to add one thing to this with regards to odds. I know a bit about shutzhound training which is what most police dogs are trained in. I say most because I don't know if they are trained in anything else. I would expect a dog that has the level of training that a police dog has or any dog that has this type of training to be the last dog I wouold have to worry about attacking me. So the odds are slim to none that you would be attacked by one of these dogs and the T-bone trick should work like 99.99% of the time. The problom I would have is deciding whether to get bit or share my steak. Tuff decision.

LOL

Mike Miller UKF


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## Akashiro Tamaya (Oct 3, 2003)

This is what I should  carry with me all the time.  Any dog that refuses to have beer and steak  with me must have a serious  major social dysfunction....lol.


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## jeffkyle (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *This is what I should  carry with me all the time.  Any dog that refuses to have beer and steak  with me must have a serious  major social dysfunction....lol. *



I have had several dogs refuse the beer.  But never the steak.   

It is irritating because the beer part is the best part!  Nothing like a drunk dog!


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## Kroy (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *This is what I should  carry with me all the time.  Any dog that refuses to have beer and steak  with me must have a serious  major social dysfunction....lol. *



woof, woof (i'll take it)


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## Karazenpo (Oct 3, 2003)

Yeah, I don't relish the thought of presenting my arm out to bite either, lol. We were told that was just a last ditch effort when you're caught by surprise at a lunging canine (throat) and don't have a chance to pull off anything else. It's either your throat or your arm. In that case, he can have the arm, lol.  It is true dogs are animals which is the main problem. Sometimes we use that adjective to describe a extremely tough adversary, whether in the ring or on the street. When in the animal 'mode' one feels no or very limited pain and many techniques that are normally successful don't work no matter how effective they are. Now, imagine an animal in the 'animal mode'. I was there when the 13 shots from a 9mm were fired. As a matter of fact I was laying on top of a bicycle that had a pit bull pinned underneath after it just mauled a teenager. On three I jumped up  and two of my brother officers standing behind me began to fire. We were at a  town park area on school grounds with children in the area so they attempted to use minimum fire but the dog kept lunging toward us and wouldn't go down. It was an average size pit bull. I had already pepper maced him when he was under the bike and due to all the kids around me initially it was inappropiate to shoot at that time -as long as I had him contained. Let me tell you, the officers needed all 13 rounds of semi-jacketd hollow points to stop him-now that's committment. Firearms are usually considered the highest level of deadly force in police training circles and if it takes 13 rounds to stop him I wonder what a martial artist would do with empty hand techniques? Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras


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## arnisador (Dec 20, 2003)

http://www.defendu.com/plan_dog.htm


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## kenpo12 (Dec 22, 2003)

So what was the lesson there?  Make sure to wear a fanny pack in the front for a dog to bite instead of your flesh?


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## Old Tiger (Dec 22, 2003)

I have to agree with karazenpo.
I have an american bulldog, (not to be confused with the short English Bulldog) He is only two and won't mature until he is three. He already weighs over 100 lbs. and if you know dogs you know that AB's are the Arnold Schwarzenggers of the canine world. They are also, in my humble opinion, the best Protection dogs out there. They have a bite pressure of over 3000psi and are incredibly powerfull. No insult to the Shutzhund training but I feel the AB training outlined by the organization that certifies them is superior. A committed AB is a very scary thing to face. Their training includes being hit with a stick and struck in the face while dragging you down. They can literally bite through a man's arm. They are great natured dogs and not people aggressive. They are dog assertive. they will do exactly what you train them to do. Once they start they will not stop unless ordered to do so. I walk my dog twice a day, he passes other dogs and people on the sidewalk with little more than a passing interest.  If ordered to protect me though, he becomes a monster. I am a strong believer in leash laws and that people should make all efforts to control their dogs. Accidents happen but there is no excuse for loose dogs and all these people who were attacked should have sued and had the dog destroyed. My daughter has been attacked five times and I feel very strongly about this.
As a point of clarification: 
Bully breeds are very misunderstood. As for pit bulls, TRUE purebred pits are NOT people aggressive. They are dog aggressive. If you are attacked by a pit it is not pure bred. It must have Staffy or something else in it. They are also a rather small dog. If you see a big pit it is not 100% pit. When dog fighting was legal handlers in the pit with the dogs could seperate them with their bare hands. People are in general very ignorant (in the true meaning of the word- they don't know) about how dog fighting was handled. Now that it is illeagal it has become  a death sport for dogs. I don't fight dogs and don't encourage it but I hate ignorance.   A good trained dog is an excellent form of defense and you have a wonderful companion. I have been in MA for 27 years and I concur that if you are attacked get a weapon. Your belt, a jacket, your shirt,  a shoe something. Dogs have a lot of heart and can be very tough as Kenzenpo has documented.


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## CoolKempoDude (Dec 22, 2003)

when i was a boy, i was bitten by a dog. As a result, i had to see a doctor and had injection. I couldn't sleep in the next 7 days because of the pain.

I'm glad that i don't loose any arm or leg.

when the dog chases you, the best thing to do is STAND still and do nothing.

trust me you can't outrun the dog UNLESS you are the fastest runner in the world.

if the dog attacks you, you do everything you can to save you in that moment .

Have a happy holiday here everybody.

I'll see all of you next year. Keep posting.


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## kenpo12 (Dec 22, 2003)

catchevangelist,

  I have to agree with you except for your commentary on the AB.  Not that I dissagree, just don't know enough about the breed or training specifics to agree or dissagree.  I have to whole heartedly agree with you about the ignorance in general.  I've heard this "Dog Defense" subject come up numerous times on MA forums and most people I've seen respond seem to be pretty ignorant about dogs in general.   
   The one thing that I would like to see more though is people keeping dogs for self defense.  People always invest in burglar alarms and weapons and this and that but a dog is man's (or womans) best friend for alot of reasons.  If the dog is trained for defense you're in good hands and even if the dog is not trained specifically for defense a German Shepherd, Doberman, American Bulldog, Bull Mastiff, or a veriety of other other dogs as well, will more than likely fight to the death to defend it's master/handler.

I'm just a dog nut, what can I say,

Matt


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 22, 2003)

Yes, people often talk about dogs even though they ignore the stuff. My neighbour was bitten by her dog a night she came late and smelling of tobacco.  She was lucky her parents heard her shout. They killed the dog and bought another one. 

Also, german sheppards are jealous of children and must not be left alone with them without adult supervision.

But every dog is a world appart, and also a mirror of his owner. So beware the owner!!

I agree with CoolKenpoGuy, if a dog attacks you, stand still!


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## kenpo12 (Dec 22, 2003)

> Also, german sheppards are jealous of children and must not be left alone with them without adult supervision.



That goes for any dog.


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## arnisador (Dec 28, 2003)

More thoughts on this:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=272786


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## Louxcypher (Dec 29, 2003)

Hello,

 I am new to this forum.  A long time ago, I use to post on other forums but it got messy. I just wanted to find a forum to share with others, and came across this one, and it seems like a good one.

 Dog attacks is the topic. Thats a tricky one. 

In my opinion.....

 Lots of variables in the scenerio. If it came to survival, life or death, it seems that excessive use of force would apply. If at all possible, I would probably try as best as I could, to get a thumb in at least one eye and dislodge it completely. I would like to think that a soft tissue target like this would be best form of, attack the attacker. Preferred target is both eyes, but it's just like anything else. Don't know till it happens. Bottom line survival, whatever it takes!

Lots of good ideas in this thread.


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## arnisador (Dec 29, 2003)

Welcome to MartialTalk *Louxcypher*!

I agree with *Kenpomachine* that breed does matter, but how the dog has been treated is also very important.

My brother-in-law, a former animal control officer and an SPCA investigator who trains chicken-fight investigators (I used the usual term for this but the censor filtered it out), said his best advice is to reason that at some point in that dog's life, someone taught it that "NO!" means to stop, and to try yelling that in a commanding tone. But, he says, it's far from reliable--just the best bet if you have no equipment.


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## molson (Dec 30, 2003)

Reading this thread brought back memories. .. I was around 15 walking home with a friend when we were confronted by a neighbors German shepard. It was between us and the house. My friend had a great idea that when he yelled, run for the door. Well he yelled at the dog and ran, well I thought it was a good idea so I yelled at the dog andthe dog bit me where the sun doesn't shine. So much for good ideas.


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## jeffkyle (Dec 30, 2003)

I have a friend that has a 1/2 lab and 1/2 rot mix dog.  It is normally a very friendly dog.  When I play with it I love to smack it on the top of the head and underneath the jaw at the same time. 
The dog really hates that because it doesn't know what to think about feeling strikes coming from both directions.  Or how to handle being sandwiched between the strikes.  
I think it is funny.  But I don't take it too far because it wouldn't be good to be bitten by this dog.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 30, 2003)

The adage applies here:  Play with fire....


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## jeffkyle (Dec 30, 2003)

It is just playing...and we both know it.

I did know a dog that was really tough, and smart when i was a kid.  
There was a guy playing with it and kicking it in the face...and finally this dog got tired of it and bit the end of this guys foot.  the kicker is that the guy was wearing steel toed boots, and the dog bit hard enough to bend the steel on to the guys foot...but it stopped when it was there.

This same dog used to be tied up to a telephone pole.  And a cop moved in down the street that had 2 dobermans.  This dog would go under the fence, with his telephone pole attached, and go to the cops yard and breed with the female doberman while pinning the male in the corner.    That was an impressive dog.


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## edhead2000 (Feb 2, 2004)

My dad is a mailman and has had several dog attacks (yes, I know, you can laugh now )  The worst one I remember, he was in the hospital and out of work for weeks, tore up his leg.  The dog was euthanized.  A few months ago he had a dog lunge through the living room picture window at him, shattering the glass.  That was a special forces police dog.  And a few other minor incidents.

His biggest piece of advise is aviodance.  If there is a dog loose, he will not enter the yard (he has a 12 mile walking route).  All the post office gives him is pepper spray (go gov't!) to deter the attacks and he has used it successfully on many occasions.  His new trick is to carry around dog treats in his pocket and give them to all the dogs everyday.  Most of the dogs now look forward to seeing him!   He also carries cat treats so as to not exclude the kitties.  But he's never been attacked by a cat. 

So if you carry pepper spray on your keychain or purse, it does work wonders on dogs.  I know it's not martial arts, but whatever works.


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## kenpo12 (Feb 3, 2004)

> That was a special forces police dog.



Huh?


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## drunken mistress (Feb 3, 2004)

I once went to visit a large garden that a woman I knew slightly had opened to the public in an attempt to raise money for charity. I saw a large Rottweiler bounding towards me as I went through the gate. My two friends fled back to the car. I had just assumed the dog would be okay and it was as friendly as a kitten. I think if you are not afraid it´s a big help with dogs.


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## edhead2000 (Feb 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *Huh? *



The dog is on the Virginia Task Force One Team: Farifax County Fire and Rescue Department, Urban Search and Rescue.  This is one of only 27 FEMA US&R Task Forces spread throughout the continental United States trained and equipped by FEMA to handle structural collapse.

Special Operations dog, works for VA Task Force One and several police departments -- freelance work you could say.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 3, 2004)

how come we are talking about "defending against a dog" in America while Chinese are talking about "the different ways to cook a dog" ???????  

i thought dogs are men's best friend. You all should learn 1 thing. You should never be Chinese best friend UNLESS you want to end up on Chinese's meal like "their best friend, dog".

These people!!!!!!!


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## arnisador (Feb 3, 2004)

Sounds like smart thinking on your father's part *edhead2000*!


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## kenpo12 (Feb 3, 2004)

> i thought dogs are men's best friend. You all should learn 1 thing. You should never be Chinese best friend UNLESS you want to end up on Chinese's meal like "their best friend, dog".



  And thank you for the close minded racist statement of the day.

Ignorance must be bliss.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *And thank you for the close minded racist statement of the day.
> 
> Ignorance must be bliss. *



not if that is what you meant.

my previous statement was a joke. Dont you see sarcasium here. I guess people take way too serious in everything nowsday.

sheehhhh


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## arnisador (Feb 5, 2004)

The current issue of Budo Intl. has an article on this.


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## Old Tiger (Feb 5, 2004)

I have posted on this previously, but wish to add to this thread. Most people have no idea what dogs are capable of. I presently own and train an American Bulldog for personal protection.  I understand people's concern with this issue. However, the issue is how to defend against "loose" dogs that may attack you. This is a serious issue.  More effort should be brought to bear on the powers to be to ENFORCE the leash laws that exist. It distresses me to see that right now, in my state, they are AGAIN trying to pass a BS law listing dogs as dangerous weapons. This law would target specific breeds and make it possible for communities, cities, and townships to outlaw the ownership of certain breeds. This is due to Gross misunderstanding of dogs in general. lets pick on Pit Bulls. They are naturally a target. People have been attacked by dogs labled as "Pit bulls". Even though TRUE pits are completely not people aggressive and are actually a rather small dog. There is NO way to enforce such a law. Also, it is ridiculous. For example, I have a pit bull living next door. It is a great dog and totally non people aggressive. Two doors down is a "mutt" that is incredibly vicious and would attack anyone if it could get out of it's fence.  Labs are kown to be lovable family pets. Yet I personally know of very vicious labs. There is no way to enforce such legislation. However, you can enforce the existing leash laws and punish owners who ignore them. My dog never leaves the house, even to go to the fenced back yard, with out being on a leash with a 3.8mm spike collar. He is completely in my control as all good training systems emphasize obedience over attack training. I know of one trainer who temperment tests his dogs at a young age BEFORE protection training them. If they fail they are euthanized. That is how seriously they take this issue. In addition, if you do the statistical research on the number of dog attacks compared to the number of dogs owned as contrasted to violent attacks perpertrated by humans... we should be outlawing humans. Much of the problem is perception and propaganda. I have a right to talk about this because my daughter has been attacked five times. It is personal with me. She loves my AB and dogs in general despite her negative experiences. 
If you want a loving companion and are concerned about self defense but don't have the time, money, inclination or whatever to learn to defend yourself physically or with weapons, a good dog is a wonderful option. Walking with a dog is a good deterrent in itself. If you do own a dog and walk it on a leash, do not let strangers approach your dog to pet it. Most dogs are fear biters unless trained and many people emit pheromones that agitate even the most passive of dogs.
As a lifelong martial artist, protection dog owner and trainer, let me say this:
There is no tried and true general method for defending yourself. As stated above different things have worked for different people in different situations and it is also dependent upon the dog. If you are attacked..please prosecute the neglegent owner to the full extent of the law. Your martial skills however, will probably provide little if any assistance. They are much faster than you are. Their reflexes are actually faster than cats reflexes. You will need some type of weapon, your belt, a stick anything. Wrap a coat or shirt or something around your arm and put it between you and the animal. That is...if you have time to do so. You cannot outrun the animal. If the animal is determined, you may be in the fight of your life. After you have prosecuted the owner, insist that the dog is euthanized. There already exist  specific laws regarding this in most states. 
I am going to try and post a photo here of a protection trained American bulldog. This is just to show how capable a dog is of protecting you and that it is a good option for self protection. It is also completely legal and requires no special permits as do guns. 
This is Panda, two years old. Her self confidence has been built up to the point that she fears no weapon or opponent. My AB is not yet two years old, weighs 106 lbs and is still growing. This is just one of many excellent breeds for personal protection, and my favorite. Panda is slightly smaller.


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## Likaes the Bandit (Jun 15, 2004)

You Have To Kill Th E Dog As Soon As U Can And Anyway You Can , Lose Animal That Attack People Are A Problem To Society No Matter What Kind Of Animal It Is.  That What I Think.
And If I Get In Trouble With Any Animal Lover Here. Let Me  Asure You Thata Dog Bite Hurts A Lot, And I Dont Want To Ha Any Other Dog Bite Me Again. So Kill It That Wahth U Have To Do.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 15, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> If you are out somewhere, and attacked by a big feral dog, (The animal is snarling, and you have no idea if it has contracted rabies, distemper etc)



Well, in my running days in San Diego, I was attacked by a doberman once in the evening.  Just saw a flash and a growl, I scrambled on a car hood and the roof, FAST.  Not MA style, but no defense against that. Nice puppy dog. Owner came and got him.  Didn't run around that neighborhood anymore.  Then, I carried pepper spray and this supposedly excruciating whistle thing that dogs can't handle. Never had another incident, of course.  Then I got a German Shepherd, huge running partner.  Guys would cross over to the other side of the street. Loved Willie,


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## KenpoTex (Jan 8, 2009)

bumped due to recent discussions


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## SifuJohnson (Jan 9, 2009)

I have no experience in this area so I talked to an old friend who did 3 tours in Vietnam with the Rangers. He told me that the Viet Cong used to wrap an arm with a shirt or some type of clothing for protection and allow the dog to bite the protected arm. They would then strike base of the base of the skull back behind the dogs head with the forearm of the free arm and roll the head back using the protected arm to break the dogs neck. He went on to say that he had seen where they also shoved bamboo sticks the size of Arnis sticks down a dogs throat to stop an attack. I would imagine that dogs like everything else have areas of great vulnerability. It would be interesting to talk with a veterinarian about this.   

Would I try one of these things? I dont know but in the absence of having a better solution I guess I would try anything if I felt my life was on the line. LOL I wonder how the dog whisperer on TV would handle something like this?


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## MA-Caver (Jan 9, 2009)

SifuJohnson said:


> I have no experience in this area so I talked to an old friend who did 3 tours in Vietnam with the Rangers. He told me that the Viet Cong used to wrap an arm with a shirt or some type of clothing for protection and allow the dog to bite the protected arm. They would then strike base of the base of the skull back behind the dog&#8217;s head with the forearm of the free arm and roll the head back using the protected arm to break the dogs neck. He went on to say that he had seen where they also shoved bamboo sticks the size of Arnis sticks down a dog&#8217;s throat to stop an attack. I would imagine that dogs like everything else have areas of great vulnerability. It would be interesting to talk with a veterinarian about this.


A dog's nose is probably it's weakest point. Strongest sense yes but because it's a bundle of nerves and a dog relies heavily upon it for input on it's surroundings. Smash that hard enough to make it bleed or even put it out of joint and the dog is out of reasons to keep fighting. Think of how badly a broken nose on a human feels... some can function but they're in pain. I've yet to see a dog stay in the fight once it's nose is out. If the dog has a hold of your arm or other then smash the nose... it'll let go and that right soon. 

Another thing I've found that was interesting... on some dogs (*not all* and it's a crap shoot but worth trying anyway) is if you see a dog getting aggressive towards you... you'd be surprised what a good firm loud "NO!" will do. If the dog has been trained to any effect with that authoritative tone of command and that word (repeated time without number) they may stop in spite of themselves. It gives you a few seconds advantage to get back in your car, house or to find a weapon or get out of the area or whatever you need to do to up the ante.


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