# The Way A Black Belt Test Should Be.



## MJS (Dec 22, 2009)

There are always discussions about testing, people who get promoted too quick, tests that seem too easy, etc.  So, in your opinion, what do you feel a Black Belt test should be like?  I'm not looking for some discussion on how to create a universal testing process, but instead for talk about how you run your tests.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, perhaps NOT like this one:



> New York Appellate Division Reports
> MACHOWSKI v. GALLANT, 234 A.D.2d 933 [4th Dept 1996]
> December 30, 1996
> 
> Supreme Court erred in granting defendants' motion for summary judgment dismissing this wrongful death action, arising out of the fatal heart attack suffered by plaintiff's husband (decedent) shortly after he completed the test for his black belt in karate. "Generally, whether the plaintiff assumed a risk by participating in a sport is a question for the jury; dismissal of the complaint is appropriate only when the proof before the court reveals no triable issue of fact" (Weller v. Colleges of the Senecas, 217 A.D.2d 280, 284; see also, Maddox v. City of New York, 66 N.Y.2d 270, 279). Although "`participants properly may be held to have consented, by their participation, to those injury-causing events which are known, apparent or reasonably foreseeable consequences of the participation'" (Lamey v. Foley, 188 A.D.2d 157, 163 quoting Turcotte v. Fell, 68 N.Y.2d 432,.439), a defendant generally has a duty to exercise reasonable care to protect participants from "`unassumed, concealed or unreasonably increased risks'" (Lamey v. Foley, supra, 188 A.D.2d, at 164, quoting Benitez v. New York City Bd. of Educ., 73 N.Y.2d 650, 658). A videotape of decedent's black belt test indicates that decedent was exhausted and gasping for breath virtually from the outset of the test, yet defendant Kelly Gallant continued to urge him on. Plaintiff submitted an affidavit from an expert who avers that the test as designed by defendants was unnecessary and should have been stopped. Plaintiff also submitted a physician's affidavit from which a jury could conclude that the alleged deficiencies in the conduct and supervision of the test were a proximate cause of decedent's death (cf., Putrino v. Buffalo Athletic Club, 193 A.D.2d 1127, and 82 N.Y.2d 779). A jury could find that defendants, by failing properly to conduct and supervise the black belt test, thereby exposed decedent to unreasonably increased risks of injury (see, Sheehan v. Hicksville Union Free School Dist., 229 A.D.2d 10



The basic point being that I often read about Black Belt tests that are grueling affairs of endurance, stoic acceptance of punishment, and sometimes abuse.  While I agree that a test should be a true test and not a gift or a present or especially a purchased commodity, it would seem that tests should be designed to test what a person has learned and how well they can apply it, not to take them to the ragged edges of life itself.  Tests of that nature exist and properly, too; in the military.  And that is where they belong; extreme tests for extreme life-or-death functions where the difference between being qualified and not being qualified is life itself.

I am not qualified to say what a black belt test should consist of, but this is my opinion as a junior-level karateka, for what it may be worth.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2009)

I've never seen the sort of do-or-die testing described. The testings I've seen, in a number of schools and arts, have been much more relaxed, and frankly I cannot imagine any instructor worthy of the name pushing a student to that degree. And I believe that such events are newsworthy for the same reason things like shark attacks get so much press; they are extremely rare.
I've said before... I don't even know why we call it testing. A test is to see if you know material. Given the way martial arts training is done, both the student and the instructor should have no doubt that the material is known to an acceptable degree before the option to test is given. I think what we do is more a demonstration than a test, and perhaps it ought to be called a demonstration. 
It's been said, and I strongly agree, that we do not test to earn a rank. We already ARE that rank and are just demonstrating that fact.


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## Jdokan (Dec 22, 2009)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've never seen the sort of do-or-die testing described. The testings I've seen, in a number of schools and arts, have been much more relaxed, and frankly I cannot imagine any instructor worthy of the name pushing a student to that degree. And I believe that such events are newsworthy for the same reason things like shark attacks get so much press; they are extremely rare.
> I've said before... I don't even know why we call it testing. A test is to see if you know material. Given the way martial arts training is done, both the student and the instructor should have no doubt that the material is known to an acceptable degree before the option to test is given. I think what we do is more a demonstration than a test, and perhaps it ought to be called a demonstration.
> It's been said, and I strongly agree, that we do not test to earn a rank. We already ARE that rank and are just demonstrating that fact.




Though I agree with a lot of this.....tests I have witnessed in the 70's were definitely a " 'til you drop" mentality....
TO discuss the demonstration portion....totally agree!!  You should be showing your skill sets within the limits of some physical stress...not to the degree where someone dies.....


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, perhaps NOT like this one:


 
The article indicates the decedent, as observed on the video, appeared out of breath and gasping from the outset of the test.  I'd question why someone in that poor condition would be up for a blackbelt test, and would be allowed to test in the first place. I think that may have been the first error in judgement.

I think this may be indicative of how standards get lowered to the point where everyone is expected to be able to earn their black belt.  They get ushered thru the underbelts without too much trouble, and then people who are grossly underconditioned are allowed to test for black belt.  But then the school wants to give a tough test for black belt, and the students are simply unprepared because it's conducted on a level they've never experienced.

Not everyone is able to earn a black belt.  But everyone wants to believe that they can.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 22, 2009)

Very, very hard and showing your skill sets but also a unique opportunity to learn and be shown quite a bit of what there is still to train in for the future.  I take each test that I give as a chance to demonstrate their proficiency and skill sets in a manner that does induce some stress.  However, each test is more about cleaning up technique and then also about showing new technique and skill sets to inspire the practitioner to keep going and improve!


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## Twin Fist (Dec 22, 2009)

Flying Crane is correct. If he was in that THAT bad of shape, he shouldnt have been testing in the first place.

underbelt tests can be anything. BB test SHOULD be hard, but not these 3 days, 1000's of reps, 10 mile runs i hear about on here

oddly, i have never, in 25 years in the arts seen a school that ACTUALLY did that. just heard about it from people that claim their school does it.....


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## J Ellis (Dec 22, 2009)

Strong command of basics.

Powerful, controlled execution of techniques.

Spontaneity and good technique against resistance and unrehearsed attacks.

Fluidity and power in any forms/kata performed.

Balance and intensity at all times.

Perseverance.

Tired at the end.


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## MJS (Dec 22, 2009)

Likewise, I too have to wonder why someone, who was in obvious distress, would a) be pushed to continue, and b) more importantly, why they'd be allowed to test, if they were in that bad of shape.  Now, one assumes that the arts will help you lose weight, so by the time you are ready for your BB, you'd be in resonable shape.  Then again, whats reasonable to one, may not be to another.

IMO, a BB test should be the most difficult test the student endures, during their training.  Physically and mentally, the student should be pushed, but again, you need to use common sense.  If running is a part of the test, which in many cases, it is ( it was for my first degree) you can't expect a 20yo male, a 50yo male, and a 40yo woman to all be on the same level.  Again, common sense.  Does this mean that they should have it easy?  No, but again, push each person in a way unique to them.

Assuming the person trains 2-3 times a week in class, and a few on their own, again, by the time they reach BB level, they should be capable of performing at an advanced level.  

The basics should be crisp.  The margin for error should be smaller, still allowing for the 'brain fart' but not to the point where its happening with every technique.  

Techniques should be crisp as well, being done both in the air and on someone.  The person should have control of the person during the tech.  The attacks should be realistic enough so that the testee gets a real feeling.  In other words, the punch should be coming at the face, not off to the side or stopping 5in away from the face.  If you dont block or move you get hit. The testee should also have a good understanding of the tech., being able to explain it and understand why they're doing what they're doing.

Kata should also fall into the same group....crisp, solid stances, strikes, kicks, and the testee should be able to explain what they're doing and give at least 1 breakdown of the moves of the kata.  

Sparring should be done as well.  Set up the sparring to allow a variety of things, such as 1 min matches, with the testee staying in the ring and fresh fighters coming in after each min.  Rounds with just hands or just feet, rounds with more than 1 person.

IMO, the test as I said, is mental and physical.  I want to see how much drive the person has, and how much desire they have to keep going.  Again, safety is something that needs to be kept in mind.


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## AriesKai (Dec 22, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, perhaps NOT like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I can say that I agree students should be trained, and pushed hard; but not too hard, to the point of hospitalization and/or death. That's absolutely rediculous and is ludacris!

When I studied under Carlos Machado (cousin of the Gracie Brothers), he trained us all very hard together; but always INSTRUCTED and told us,
_"IF you feel that you need to take a break or simply can not go anymore, that you need to pause during the workouts, or during testing; STOP IMMEDIATELY and tell the instructor!!! We will take care of you, you will not be neglected here, we take care of our own! You will know if you need to stop, but don't make it an excuse to get out of the workout itself. Make sure that when you stop, you NEED to stop. If you feel that you can keep going, keep going!__"_

I agree with my former instructor. If you're exhausted and feel that you need to stop, then stop.
Carlos was a licensed EMT and had certifications in First Aid, CPR and the use of AED. I do believe that it is the law in most states that the instructors be licensed in at least CPR, and can administer first aid at some level and/or degree. If they're not, then they're fools (in my opinion) and aren't worthy of the time or money, as they most likely care less about their students personal well-being. Carlos treated me like I was his little brother, though he treated all of us this way.
He always said, _"We are ALL one big family here! Look around you, these are your brothers and sisters while you are within these walls! Treat each other like it, and take care of your fellow man!_"

I know that if Carlos' and/or any other instructor felt that someone needed to take a breather, they'd _make_ them take a breather. Carlos' brother in law has made me take a few breathers, even when I just wanted to keep going.

They believed in strength, endurance, and motivational drive... but they did not agree on someone being pushed too far past their limits.


This is the way all dojo's should be, in my opinion..


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## Lightning Ram (Dec 22, 2009)

Most instructors should already know if the student is ready from your regular classes, he should know that the student knows there forms, if your sparring and self-defense is up to the level of belt your testing for. I would say the test is to see if the student stays mentally focus through the test and they execute techniques per there belt level and the instructor sees that the student put there all into it.

My 1st -5th black were 4 hr test.


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## AriesKai (Dec 22, 2009)

Lightning Ram said:


> Most instructors should already know if the student is ready from your regular classes, he should know that the student knows there forms, if your sparring and self-defense is up to the level of belt your testing for. I would say the test is to see if the student stays mentally focus through the test and they execute techniques per there belt level and the instructor sees that the student put there all into it.
> 
> My 1st -5th black were 4 hr test.


 


MOST instructors...
ALL instructors should know.
All of my instructors always knew my physical capabilities.
If it's a trial class, then that's a different story. We had trial classes all the time when I was studying under Carlos Machado and Saekson Janjira (official and widely-known, famous names in the MA world), and these instructors didn't treat any of these students any different than their normal students - rightly so.
I'd rather go to a trial class and LEARN that those instructors are going to make me earn EVERYTHING, rather than be introduced into a cakewalk.
If it's easy the first time, it'll be easy the rest of the time.

Also, students literally came from all over the world and all over the US to study under these men. Carlos and Saekson had hundreds of students, and had to actually hire several junior instructors to help them through the class. If Carlos or Saekson didn't remember someone, their junior instructors did.
As I said before, it was one big family. Thankfully, Carlos and Saekson both still remembers me to this very day. I don't even train under them anymore.

People that I trained with when I was under Carlos Machado:
Eddie Bravo
Mark Hatmaker
Chuck Norris

Check out his school and biography @ http://www.rcjmachadojiujitsu.com/Carlos-Machado-Brazilian-JiuJitsu-Dallas-instructors.html


It pays to be a Dallas Texan.


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## Archtkd (Dec 22, 2009)

AriesKai said:


> I do believe that it is the law in most states that the instructors be licensed in at least CPR, and can administer first aid at some level and/or degree. If they're not, then they're fools (in my opinion) and aren't worthy of the time or money, as they most likely care less about their students personal well-being.


 
Good, good thoughts, but the belief about CPR training could be flawed. 

I've lived in and practiced Taekwondo in four states in the Midwest (Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and Missouri) and they don't have any law of any kind regulating martial art instructors. In those states theres no requirement that instructors have a CPR/First Aid certificate, any kind of criminal background check or even a certificate in any martial art that most of us have heard of. Anybody can open a martial arts studio. That includes the proud holders of large 30th Dan certificates in Shank Do Kwan a fighting art they developed and refined during long stints at the Supermax. I think thats the case with most of the states in the nation, which makes it very crucial that we all observe that old maxim: Caveat Emptor  Buyer Beware.


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## AriesKai (Dec 23, 2009)

Archtkd said:


> Good, good thoughts, but the belief about CPR training could be flawed.
> 
> I've lived in and practiced Taekwondo in four states in the Midwest (Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and Missouri) and they don't have any law of any kind regulating martial art instructors. In those states theres no requirement that instructors have a CPR/First Aid certificate, any kind of criminal background check or even a certificate in any martial art that most of us have heard of. Anybody can open a martial arts studio. That includes the proud holders of large 30th Dan certificates in Shank Do Kwan a fighting art they developed and refined during long stints at the Supermax. I think thats the case with most of the states in the nation, which makes it very crucial that we all observe that old maxim: Caveat Emptor  Buyer Beware.


 

Ahahahahaha :rofl:
Amen, brother!
Amen!


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## searcher (Dec 23, 2009)

I have not had the chance to test in EPAK yet for my BB, but I can tell you how my tests are at my C-ryu and I-ryu schools works.

The BB candidates are watched and constantly tested over a few months.   The belief is that they should be able to show the required knowledge all the time, not just on a single day.    This gives the instructors the chance to draw a better conclusion on where the student is, skill and knowledge wise.    The testing process comes to a peak on the last day of testing, which is our "50 man fight."     The student gets 1 new opponent every minute until the 50 fights are complete.    The style of fighting we use is kickboxing and it is 90-100% contact.     Students have the option of stopping at anytime in the test for a failing score, which means they start the evaluation and testing process over again.    It may seem harsh to outsiders, but itis what we have done for the time we have been in operation.     I am not the originator of this process, butI have went through it and it is only like this for Sho-dan.    No exceptions have ever been made.   Sometimes things happen and a few bones get broken(mostly noses), but for the most part, the test results in little to no injuries.     I think it happens like that due to the BB candidate knowing what is coming and they prepare accordingly.     

The C-ryu school has been in operation since 1969 and it has only promoted 22 BBs at present.   Of those only 1 is a female, my wife.


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## just2kicku (Dec 23, 2009)

I think a BB test should be hard. I've seen guys who sucked wind half way thru, and guess what, test over you fail. Not only should you know the requirements, I think you should be randomly attacked to see how you react. I also think you should be hit hard to see how you react to getting hit. 

My test lasted about 3 1/2 to 4 hours, my "requirement" part was a very small part of that. I was attacked from everywhere with fist, knives and clubs. My instructor wanted to see reaction, not if I memorized numbers and movements. Yeah, I took a shot to the face with a club and got cut on the hand.

Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. When I got my BB, I felt I truly earned it.


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> I think a BB test should be hard. I've seen guys who sucked wind half way thru, and guess what, test over you fail. Not only should you know the requirements, I think you should be randomly attacked to see how you react. I also think you should be hit hard to see how you react to getting hit.


 
I agree, and this is why it drives me nuts to train side by side with people who're less serious about the training.  Are the casual, looking for something to do after work folks, really going to hold up to the contact of the BB test?  Are they going to want the contact?  In most cases, the test will probably be modified or watered down.  Then again, I have to wonder...way back in the day, not just in the Kenpo/Kaju systems, but the Shotokan, Goju, etc. systems, were there less serious people training?  If so, did they survive?  Were tests watered down because someone is 50yrs old and 20lbs over weight?  



> My test lasted about 3 1/2 to 4 hours, my "requirement" part was a very small part of that. I was attacked from everywhere with fist, knives and clubs. My instructor wanted to see reaction, not if I memorized numbers and movements. Yeah, I took a shot to the face with a club and got cut on the hand.


 
Mine was long as well.  Hell my Arnis test resulted in my fingers and hands getting hit with a stick, my head taking a good shot, and the basic feeling that I got my *** kicked.   But I passed!  



> Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. When I got my BB, I felt I truly earned it.


 
Amen to that Brother!  When I test, I want to feel like I earned it, not had it handed to me.


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, perhaps NOT like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I have to wonder....obviously the person in that article was pushed to the max.  I wonder, were they pushed that hard prior to testing?  I mean, as time goes on, the tests should be harder.  If this person was not prepping for BB level, well, I can see how they'd be exhausted.  

As for the BB test itself...IMO, I think the test should be somewhat of a reflection of what would happen, should they be attacked for real.  Its one thing to 'show' what you know, with your attacker, tossing out a half assed punch, off to the side or stopping 5in away from your face, vs. someone who is really trying to hit you.  IMO, if they're not facing a bit of pressure, then the belt may as well be handed to them.


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## LawDog (Dec 23, 2009)

A B.B. test is used to see what level of "fighting skills' a student has. The B.B. evaluation / test should then reflect the specific styles way of fighting.
Ex.
*self defense systems - less cardio, more defense technique and some sparring,
*offensive fighting - heavy cardio, more application drills and alot of free fighting(single & multi opponent},
*sport martial arts - should reflect the type of sport, either contact or point etc.
The length of a test will vary according to the amount of basics, presets and application drills that may be required.
Just my opinon here,
A dan test, 4 - 5 hours max,
A dan test with instructors certificate, 5-6  hours max.
A masters test, 6 - 7 hours max,
A master instructors test, 7 - 8 hours.

The overal importance of a B.B. test is simply - quality control.


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## LawDog (Dec 23, 2009)

A p.s.
Most real street situations will happen when your body is in a  "cold state" and is really not ready for it. If you can only go one or two rounds after a good warm up then how long could you really go when the ole bod. is in that "not ready" "cold state". Everyone needs to deveolpe their own cardio.


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## kingkong89 (Dec 23, 2009)

I feel that a bb test should consist of everything. Not everything out there but everything that is part of your system, all the katas one steps throws sweeps joint locks ect. Whatever you do in your system should be on the test


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## KenpoDave (Dec 23, 2009)

The black belt test is a signpost representing the very best that you have on that day, physically and mentally.  The test should be physically demanding enough that, during the test, there should be a few times where the student says, "I'm not sure I can finish this..." but they reach inside and do it anyway.

There should be a standard, yet every test should be unique to the student.

The test is really only a formality.  The candidate has "passed" in the eyes of the instructor when the instructor sets the test date.  Yet, it can be failed.

We require all self defense techniques, performed in the air and on an opponent, all katas, and all basics performed 5 times each both sides.  The typical test runs about 3.5 hours.

A correctly administered black belt test should be a gift from the instructor to the student, and from the student to the instructor and school.  It should be both difficult enough yet flawlessly performed, so that the blackbelt can look back everyday and know that he achieved something.


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## Doc (Dec 24, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Flying Crane is correct. If he was in that THAT bad of shape, he shouldnt have been testing in the first place.
> 
> underbelt tests can be anything. BB test SHOULD be hard, but not these 3 days, 1000's of reps, 10 mile runs i hear about on here
> 
> oddly, i have never, in 25 years in the arts seen a school that ACTUALLY did that. just heard about it from people that claim their school does it.....


Seems to me just coming to a properly run class that actually teaches and tests skills regularly as a matter of instruction, would yield cardio benefits with no extra effort. If it doesn't, and a person makes it all the way to testing for black, chances are they hadn't learned and/or developed anything anyway, and never will in that environment.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 24, 2009)

exactly right Doc


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## MJS (Dec 24, 2009)

Doc said:


> Seems to me just coming to a properly run class that actually teaches and tests skills regularly as a matter of instruction, would yield cardio benefits with no extra effort. If it doesn't, and a person makes it all the way to testing for black, chances are they hadn't learned and/or developed anything anyway, and never will in that environment.


 
Exactly!!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 24, 2009)

Doc said:


> Seems to me just coming to a properly run class that actually teaches and tests skills regularly as a matter of instruction, would yield cardio benefits with no extra effort. If it doesn't, and a person makes it all the way to testing for black, chances are they hadn't learned and/or developed anything anyway, and never will in that environment.



Hard to argue with that!


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## Sukerkin (Dec 24, 2009)

To play devils advocate a little on this topic, why on earth should a 'test' for a martial arts grade take anything like the amount of time or physical demands that are being spoken of in some of the posts above?

For 99.9% of us that train in the martial arts (made up stat there ), our training is the hardest thing that we do in any given week and we are never anticipating having to go out onto a feudal battlefield and rely on our 'skillz' because our weapon has broken.  So what possible value is there in such needless strenuousness?

To most people, it reeks of pure testosterone fueled faux-machismo to demand that a black belt test should near enough put you in A & E.


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## jks9199 (Dec 24, 2009)

For at least 1st degree/dan/level, it makes some sense to have some sort of crucible of a test, as a rite of passage.  But it's not necessary to go to insane lengths, or weeks long testing.  The review of all the material below black belt, some reasonable but demanding physical challenge, sparring (if appropriate for the art), and so on.  I question using a written test or even the paper requirements, unless they're going to be reasonably reviewed and assessed.  I've just seen too many where the written test was trite or the papers were simply checked off, and not actually read.


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## Carol (Dec 24, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> I think a BB test should be hard. I've seen guys who sucked wind half way thru, and guess what, test over you fail. Not only should you know the requirements, I think you should be randomly attacked to see how you react. I also think you should be hit hard to see how you react to getting hit.
> 
> .





MJS said:


> I agree, and this is why it drives me nuts to train side by side with people who're less serious about the training.  Are the casual, looking for something to do after work folks, really going to hold up to the contact of the BB test?  Are they going to want the contact?  In most cases, the test will probably be modified or watered down.  Then again, I have to wonder...way back in the day, not just in the Kenpo/Kaju systems, but the Shotokan, Goju, etc. systems, were there less serious people training?  If so, did they survive?  Were tests watered down because someone is 50yrs old and 20lbs over weight?



When you say "sucking wind" does that mean performing poorly or breathing hard?  Based on Mike S's comment, it sounds like he's talking about poor performance, but the prior comments (by Bill M and Flying Crane) address someone breathing hard.

I can understand a poor performer not earning the rank, but I can't get behind breathing hard as a metric of pass/fail.  If I were to give up something as a failure just because someone else thought out of breath, I wouldn't have accomplished a lot of the things i did this year. 

I hiked up to the summit of Mount Monadnock this fall. It was very crowded and I frequently stepped to the side to let other hikers (in better shape) pass me.  Once when I stopped to rest, another hiker asked me if I was OK.  I said fine, and joked that I had plenty of heart, but perhaps not enough cardio.  The hiker laughed and said that cardio alone won't bring you to the finish line of a marathon, but cardio and heart together will always bring great results.  I think he's right.  

Sometimes its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.  So...



			
				Sukerkin said:
			
		

> So what possible value is there in such needless strenuousness?



I suppose the academic answer may be pain tolerance, art proficiency, blah blah blah.  I haven't earned a black belt in anything, so I can't speak from experience.

But when you are in a situation where you must perform, and must go for hours, you are alone, when you feel that the odds are against you, the situation seems hopeless, and you keep finding obstacle after obstacle bringing one new hell after another...

...and you emerge from that experience with all or most of your health intact...

...then you, your mind, your body everything within you KNOWS the importance of never, ever, ever, ever giving up.  That makes for a much bigger fight in the dog.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 24, 2009)

I like your answer to my last question, Carol :tup:.  

I think if martial arts is a persons primary motivation for continuing to draw breath (or if their art truly is a means for their survival) then that does indeed count as a worthy rationale for gradings that are tests of endurance.


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## Doc (Dec 24, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> To play devils advocate a little on this topic, why on earth should a 'test' for a martial arts grade take anything like the amount of time or physical demands that are being spoken of in some of the posts above?
> 
> For 99.9% of us that train in the martial arts (made up stat there ), our training is the hardest thing that we do in any given week and we are never anticipating having to go out onto a feudal battlefield and rely on our 'skillz' because our weapon has broken.  So what possible value is there in such needless strenuousness?


For me and those I teach sir, I must agree. Every one of my classes is some measure of a test physically, intellectually, and emotionally. Each class is about 4 hours long, and extremely demanding on many levels. Not only do I, but everyone in the school knows whose competent and who is not on any given night at their level. My students earn it every night. My classes themselves are a"right of passage" and to subject my students to additional exhausting demands as a formality seems unnecessary, and my exams are no more exhausting, and are actually shorter than a regular class. The written exams are mandatory at every level, and they consist of no less than 30 essay questions, plus a thesis for black and above. I also realize I am not in the business of the martial arts. We do not advertise, and the location of the primary school is not listed anywhere. Only word-of mouth, a referral, or luck can bring you to us followed by an interview and background check. I cannot expect others to be as stringent in a "open to the public" studio. We're a private institution, and that allows me to pick the student, over the other way around, and we do not take children for any reason.


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## AriesKai (Dec 24, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> To play devils advocate a little on this topic, why on earth should a 'test' for a martial arts grade take anything like the amount of time or physical demands that are being spoken of in some of the posts above?
> 
> For 99.9% of us that train in the martial arts (made up stat there ), our training is the hardest thing that we do in any given week and we are never anticipating having to go out onto a feudal battlefield and rely on our 'skillz' because our weapon has broken.  So what possible value is there in such needless strenuousness?
> 
> To most people, it reeks of pure testosterone fueled faux-machismo to demand that a black belt test should near enough put you in A & E.





I completely agree to this. Not everyone has to anticipate:



Sukerkin said:


> having to go out onto a feudal battlefield and rely on our 'skillz' because our weapon has broken.



Those that have a higher chance, should train for it (ie: combat soldiers, armed militiamen, police officers, ect); because it's the 'worst case scenario'. This is "Life" or "Death", and it's, "Survival of the fittest"; not playing with a box of Lego's while watching Blues Clues or Sesame Street.

If i'm getting some training under some 'McSensei' at the local 'McDojo' that is pathetically useless in the "Worst Case Scenario", then what in the Hell am I training under him for? Physical training?? I can get that at "Gold's Gym"!!!
In relation to us who train in the 'Martial Arts'; _we_ train for those "Worst Case Scenario's", or we wouldn't be training at all.
One's purpose of training may be different than someone else's (such as my own); but that doesn't mean that they both shouldn't train for the 'worst case scenario' as long as it remains 'realistic' within their daily lives, and or jobs.
If I go into a street fight against 20 attackers with glocks, chances are i'm gonna either get turned into swiss cheese, or i'm going to 'negotiate' my way out of the situation (which is something that should be included in every Martial Arts schools curriculum). One should be trained on how to handle that as best as possible. If I'm a soldier on the front lines, I end up 'stranded' or 'strayed' away from my platoon/squad, and my weapon gets destroyed somehow, I should be trained on how to find my squad/platoon without being detected, and if I have to engage an enemy hand-to-hand (which is probably going to happen eventually), then I should be trained for it... there's a high chance that one may not come out alive (which is another thing that one should be trained for; SERE w/h2h tactics); but there _is_ still that _chance_ that I _will_.
Last one: If I go into a street fight against 3 thugs with knives and brass knuckles, there is a very high chance that i'm going to get battered, beaten, and sliced to death.. but there is still a chance that I can come out of that situation alive and unharmed (a low chance, but 1% is enough to say that it is possible).

While there's the chance that something _can_ happen, there should be an even much _higher_ chance that we _train for it._
If we don't, then that chance of Life and Death goes from 50/50 to 30/70; death wins. If we _do_ then that chance of Life and Death goes from 50/50 to 70/30; Life wins.

Conclusion:
Someone who trains up to the BB test should be trained and conditioned enough to the point to where they can handle what they're being given.
It shouldn't be something where you have to take a break during or in-between in order to stay alive or put your heart back into it's proper and/or normal rhythm.
Just because you feel palpitations in your chest, doesn't mean you should stop. Feeling palpitations from your heart beat during exercise is actually very normal. If you are showing symptoms of _myocardial infarction _or _cardiac arrest_, then you should stop immediately (or the instructor should _make_ you stop), and find professional/medical assistance immediately.
Your instructor should be medically inclined just enough to know _at least_ symptoms of heart failure..._HOPEFULLY!_

Another thing and THIS SHOULD BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY!!!!:
_Your instructor should know about ALL of your previous medical issues.
If you have any history of heart conditions, asthma, ect; your Instructors should know about it!
It's their responsibility to know, and is YOUR responsibility to make sure they know!!
_
Something that should also be taken into account, is that if the lady/gentleman is elderly and/or is a senior citizen, than they're battling the factor of having to keep up with those who are of better health.
Just because they're having to battle against this, does not mean that they should be _given_ a black belt; they should still have to work and earn it just would anyone else, but within their physical capabilities!
They should not be restricted the possibility and privilege of _earning_ a black belt. Any good instructor will take that seriously, as one could probably even file a lawsuit against that instructor for discrimination and/or that instructor being prejudice.

My experience under all of my specially selected instructors includes having to continuously contribute to that distinctive odor of sweat and bleach on the mats and floors no matter what belt level I was, the entire time I trained under them.

The way i've always believed is:
While I sweat more now, the less bleedin`n`dyin I have to do later!

That goes back to that old saying, 'No pain, No game!'

It doesn't matter if you're a beginner, intermediate, advanced, or a grandmaster.. If you're not _really_ ready for that next belt, than it shouldn't be given to you.

The first few belts should not only be your understanding on the basics of the martial art, but should also be the instructors' assessment on where you are physically, mentally, and even emotionally. This is where they should be pushing you until they _know_ your limits, while _you_ learn your own limits as well.

The black belt test _should_ be earned through hours and hours of sweat, blood, and pain, while you display great amounts of motivation, determination, and the heart to fight through even the toughest of fights.
One thing I believe is: _you always die or go down fighting._
While you shouldn't have to _'die fighting' _for that black belt, you should be fighting to reach that level of strength, conditioning, and technique/skillz from day one. If an instructor doesn't see that you're putting forth that 110% effort every time (realistically, within your limits), you shouldn't even get past white belt (beginner), even if you are learning the techniques.
One thing that everyone should know: the more you train in technique, the more proficient you'll be at it; so if you stay at white belt for 5 years (just an example), you're going to be phenomenally skilled at the white belt curriculum of skills.
If you're not getting anything in that amount of time in regards to technique/'skillz' then you probably shouldn't be studying anyways......

With all of that being said; someone testing for the 'black belt' should be more than just prepared for it.
There's no point in 'meeting' the standard when you can 'exceed' it!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Accidents and problems can always be prevented; in this case, it's proper training and conditioning while having to earn every single belt or rank you receive.




Best Regards,
Aries Kai


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## Ray (Dec 25, 2009)

The first black belt tests I saw (two simultaneously) happened during what I thought would be a normal group class. The teacher took two brown belt students and made them run through forms and techniques (the techs were performed on other members of the class). Then each sparred with nearly everyone in the class. They ended by sparring with each other. These two were probably the best fighters in the class, including the black belts that were present. The two didn't know ahead of time that they were being test, I and others in the class didn't realize it until later in the class.

It seemed as if, at the end, anyone who may doubted the abilities or knowledge of the two could not now dispute any of that. They were tired and sweaty but proven to be worthy of their belts.

I've seen more formal tests where people were otherwise physically tested as described by others in the thread. 
----

Me, I decided once that I would only "sign up" to test when I became a "great fighter." I got to the point where: I went to class every night of the week for multiple classes...I worked out at home almost incessantly. And after all the hours I worked out, practiced and tried I never became sufficiently good enough to test. There were other people who were better than me and no matter how hard I tried I could not best them.

At one of my teacher's tournaments I took a 2nd in Brown Belt forms, and 1st in Brown Belt fighting. And I had a great time helping set up, judge and do whatever I could to help out.

At one point I was paged to the front by my teacher and as I approached I was surrounded by a group of blackbelts. My teacher said "grab him" and I was grabbed from behind by two, my teacher kicked me up and I was promoted there & there. I still wasn't happy with my proficiency & ablities and I didn't wholeheartedly feel good about my promotion. After all these years, I realize I never will be happy with my proficiency, knowledge and skills. Left to my own devices, I would never have tested.
----

What is the purpose of a test? And what is the outcome? Is it to be shown, like the Wizard of Oz "scarecrow" that we really do have something that we never realized? Is it to show us that we still have a lot to learn and improve upon? Is it to confirm to us and others that we posses the requisites for the rank? I suppose if the test acheives the purpose then it is the right way to test. I believe it should spur us on to want to improve.


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## LawDog (Dec 26, 2009)

Those who practice,
* the Art itself - there is no need for long cardio types of tests. There are those who want to enjoy the working out for "self gratification" and there is nothing wrong with this.
* the Martial Arts - If your going to train to fight or for a possible encounter then you should be up to the task.
Like in the military there are those who want to take up the challenge of the hard test.
The MMA guys test all of the time so that they can get rated. They get this rating by actual fighting.
One should should join a school / system that fits well with their own point of view and not worry so much about how the other person does it.
Test or no test - the never ending question. :argue:


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## MJS (Dec 26, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> To play devils advocate a little on this topic, why on earth should a 'test' for a martial arts grade take anything like the amount of time or physical demands that are being spoken of in some of the posts above?
> 
> For 99.9% of us that train in the martial arts (made up stat there ), our training is the hardest thing that we do in any given week and we are never anticipating having to go out onto a feudal battlefield and rely on our 'skillz' because our weapon has broken. So what possible value is there in such needless strenuousness?
> 
> To most people, it reeks of pure testosterone fueled faux-machismo to demand that a black belt test should near enough put you in A & E.


 
IMO, I think the test should be hard, but should the person end up dying?  IMO, no.  The test, I feel, should be a test thats physically and mentally demanding.  While we may not go into battle, so to speak, depending on where you live, work, hang out, can all play a big part in whether or not you'll ever need you're training.  To re-enforce this, in my small town that I live in, there has been a home invasion as well as a shooting in a now closed bar/nightclub.  

I think Doc made a good point, and others, including myself touched on it.  Why in the world would anyone be up for BB level if they can't perform at BB level?  This tells me that if this is happening, then people who perform half-assed, are moving up in rank, when they shouldn't be, and the inst. is running a mcdojo, as he's more concerned with making the $$$ then quality students.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 26, 2009)

That wasn't quite what I was trying to shine a dim light on, *MJS*.  

It is most clear that if you are not yet of the right standard then you should not even get the merest whisper of a step onwards in rank.  That I am in full agreement with.

What I was addressing, as Devil's Advocate, was the apparent need to turn a test into something tantermount to a hazing ritual.  

From my own experience, I have had 'gradings' that lasted all day without my even realising it because my sensei believes in seeing someones actions over time when they do not think they are being scrutinised.  So, essentially I know that, with appropriate breaks, I can swing a sword over a large number of hours - for me, there would be no gain to bringing me to the brink of exhaustion to prove that I can do _Mon Iri_ when my arms feel like lead weights because I already know that I can.  

As a semi-aside, *Doc* mentioned above that his normal classes already put his students under that kind of physical stress but he also noted that his students are what we might term 'invitation only' as it is not a commercial environment but one for the invesitgation of the art (something that I believe all schools should be).  Because such a thing is a mutual rather than a finacial agreement I feel that puts it into a different field than a commercial school.


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## dianhsuhe (Dec 27, 2009)

In our system there is no black belt test per se.  The idea is that the student is being tested every time they step on the mat so when they are ready they are promoted.

It is also worth mentioning that every black-belt in our system is approved in person by Grandmaster Kuoha, this ensures quality and consistency.

The belt is received palms down (earned) as opposed to palms up (gift).

CHeers


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## shaolinmonkmark (Dec 30, 2009)

at my school, our tests are 1 month long:
3 days a week for 2 hours each day.
We mix it up, example:
first 25 minutes, pushups, cardio, BOB heavy bag combos on both right and southpaw stance, kicks, etc., then next 25 minutes non stop, will either be BJJ grappling(strickly BJJ, no striking, broken up amongst all testing participants, 2 to 3 minutes each, rotate the partners)_or, Dm's/combinations, both right and left sided, using 3 people at a time, defender in middle, both attackers at 45degree angles ready to punch in, master calls out the number, and side you have to go ASAP, then over head/side clubs another 45 minutes , slashing/straight in knifes, 30 minutes, kempo punch techniques-you freeze, you do 150 pushups or 200 crunches, broken up in 40's, 30 second breaks in between, last 20 minutes, sparring, first 5 minutes, Point sparring, next 5 minutes, sparring with Verbal handicapps, example, mark , you cannot strike with your hands, only block, but, can use only feet, etc... last remaing time, MMa style kumite with gear, don't stop till master instructor says up.
(i will admit, sometimes, i wanted to puke at the end )
We do not believe in USSD's way:
a test is 14 hours long non stop with only a 25 minute water/rest break.
At end of the test, there is a ceremony date.


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## ninjachamp3 (Dec 30, 2009)

Before taking a test, these are the steps that any beginner can take now to ensure a successful path to black belt:

1. Define what the black belt means to you personally
2.Set a realistic period in which to reach your goal
3. Break your overall goal down into smaller content chunks
4. Understand exactly what content you need to learn
5. Get to know the black belts in your club and ask them how they were successful.
6. Go to class on a regular basis
7. Practice at home
8. Read books on karate and your style and do some research on the Internet
9. Find a training partner who shares the same goal and push each other to the next level
10. Never give up on becoming a black belt


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