# A baton is ineffective



## jaime_lion (Aug 21, 2019)

Here is a video of me hitting my leg with a baton 3 times. I hit my leg 3 times making another video right before this one but I did not like how that turned out. This is why I feel batons are ineffective. They are only good for training. If I did this same thing with a knife I would be in serious trouble.

Anyways enjoy.

Kung fu leg hit.mp4


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 21, 2019)

Those strikes don't look particularly powerful. Tough to tell from the angle, but it looks like you're (probably unconsciously) stopping the strike right at the end to lessen it.

Also there are better spots to aim for then the meaty part of your calves. The head, shoulder, knee, underside of knee, foot, chin, all would make more sense and be more effective.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 21, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Those strikes don't look particularly powerful. Tough to tell from the angle, but it looks like you're (probably unconsciously) stopping the strike right at the end to lessen it.
> 
> Also there are better spots to aim for then the meaty part of your calves. The head, shoulder, knee, underside of knee, foot, chin, all would make more sense and be more effective.




Might not be as powerful as my first hits. Like I said I redid this video. I will need to find someone willing to hit me and do a video of that.

While I agree those spots would be more effective I do not agree that they are as effective as allot of people think. Also they are smaller spots and thus harder to hit and a person would be guarding those spots and such. 

Thanks for the input.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 21, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Might not be as powerful as my first hits. Like I said I redid this video. I will need to find someone willing to hit me and do a video of that.
> 
> While I agree those spots would be more effective I do not agree that they are as effective as allot of people think. Also they are smaller spots and thus harder to hit and a person would be guarding those spots and such.
> 
> Thanks for the input.


Yeah, someone else hitting you normally works better. I know I've had a similar thing during conditioning-the body just doesn't want to hurt itself all that much.

As for the other spots being harder to hit-with training, not really. I can fairly easily hit someones shoulder blade in sparring, when they don't have a weapon (or if they do, if there's a significant skill gap). I've also found the legs to be the easiest area to aim accurately at, since most people aren't expecting you to strike there, and it's pretty simple to see/predict how people will react to it. The tricky part is making sure you don't get knocked in the head while going for their knee.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 21, 2019)

They generally work, you don't really get to ask for what weapons you have on hand sometimes or can afford.  

They should work pretty well if you thwack someone across the head a couple of times.   

I got a video of someone discussing some baton things: 




His main point is, where you would be justified in whacking someone over the head with it a pistol or something like that would be better for lethal force and it doesnt really work that well as a compliance thing.     Or something like that, its a very quick memory gloss over on it, also ignore the sort of clickbaity thumbnail.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 21, 2019)

Rat said:


> They generally work, you don't really get to ask for what weapons you have on hand sometimes or can afford.
> 
> They should work pretty well if you thwack someone across the head a couple of times.
> 
> ...



I already saw that video a while ago. Around the time it was uploaded.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 21, 2019)

If I hit you with one of my sticks, you won’t get up.  One shot, all I would need.


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## Buka (Aug 21, 2019)




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## jaime_lion (Aug 21, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> If I hit you with one of my sticks, you won’t get up.  One shot, all I would need.



Got any plans to come to south dakota would love to try this. 

Can I see a picture of your sticks?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 21, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Got any plans to come to south dakota would love to try this.
> 
> Can I see a picture of your sticks?


I dont think you meant it that way, as youre free to meet up and experiment with anyone you'd like on here, but just as a reminder challenge matches are not allowed on this site.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 21, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I dont think you meant it that way, as youre free to meet up and experiment with anyone you'd like on here, but just as a reminder challenge matches are not allowed on this site.



Understood and yeah it was ment as a funny comment.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 21, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Got any plans to come to south dakota would love to try this.
> 
> Can I see a picture of your sticks?


Piece of good hickory.  That’s a bone-cruncher.

I realize this is not a challenge, and neither was my comment meant as one.  But I’m saying, either your baton is very light, or you aren’t hitting very hard, or both.  And try cracking it across your shin bone or knee cap or ankle bones, not just bouncing it on the meat of the leg.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Piece of good hickory.  That’s a bone-cruncher.
> 
> I realize this is not a challenge, and neither was my comment meant as one.  But I’m saying, either your baton is very light, or you aren’t hitting very hard, or both.  And try cracking it across your shin bone or knee cap or ankle bones, not just bouncing it on the meat of the leg.



Yeah. That was going to be the difference. In the leg mat not drop the guy as well as advertised.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

Removed the video. Will be doing another one when I get someone to hit me. Thanks for the input.


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## pdg (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Removed the video. Will be doing another one when I get someone to hit me. Thanks for the input.



I would offer my services to hit you with a stick, but I think you're too far away...


The issue though is that even getting someone else to hit you isn't really a fair test - odds are that they're not going to want to hurt you so will hold back, subconsciously or not.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

Have I posted this before?


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## Danny T (Aug 22, 2019)

The Baton used in LEO work is used as a Nonlethal device. It is used as a pain compliant device. 
How many strikes were targeting the head? -0-.
How many targeting the base of the neck or spine? -0-


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

Danny T said:


> The Baton used in LEO work is used as a Nonlethal device. It is used as a pain compliant device.
> How many strikes were targeting the head? -0-.
> How many targeting the base of the neck or spine? -0-




While I do agree and to answer your question 0 i think. But thous guys were not aggressive. They were not blocking or fighting back. Honestly batons are mainly pain compliance weapons. Even hits to the head are no guarantee. How many times has a guy been knocked out and when he gets back up he is still ready to fight? Or how many times have guys been hit in the head without being knocked out?

There is one thread on this very forum talking about how the person posting the topic got knocked out and came to 10 seconds later and was ready to beat up the guy that attacked him if the guy still had been there.

It is kind of like comparing a 5 dollar flashlight to a 20 dollar flashlight. The cheaper one will generally be made of cheaper components and wont work as well or be as dependable. Would I buy a 5 dollar flashlight if I needed one for a project where the flashlight working was not a top priority. Yes I would. But if I needed the light like if I was going into a cave system and was "trusting my life" to a flashlight then I would go with the more expensive model.

Similar with weapons. Would I trust my life to a baton that can be blocked or grabbed or ineffective on certain body parts or such? Or would I trust my life to a good solid knife that I know trust.

Lol this is feeling like I have said this stuff before. Am I saying similar stuff I have posted on here before?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> While I do agree and to answer your question 0 i think. But thous guys were not aggressive. They were not blocking or fighting back. Honestly batons are mainly pain compliance weapons. Even hits to the head are no guarantee. How many times has a guy been knocked out and when he gets back up he is still ready to fight? Or how many times have guys been hit in the head without being knocked out?
> 
> There is one thread on this very forum talking about how the person posting the topic got knocked out and came to 10 seconds later and was ready to beat up the guy that attacked him if the guy still had been there.
> 
> ...


I said it before: a hickory baton is a bone cruncher.  Other good, tough hardwoods too.

If you used a baton meant for destroying a person, it works very well.  It crunches bone, be it shin, kneecap, ankle, elbow, forearm, skull...it crunches them all.  But it does take serious intent and commitment to the strike.  In a training scenario, you cannot give the strike that kind of commitment.  You will send your training partners (or yourself) to the hospital.  

But if you DO decide to give it the proper intent, it really does not take much.

I think there is a tendency to view sticks and staves as less lethal because they don’t have sharp edges and sharp points and are devoid of metal bits.  Somehow people want to believe that makes them softer and easier to shrug off.  Well, if your stick is made of balsa wood or some light plastic like a whiffle bat, maybe so.  But a stick made of an appropriate wood such as hickory can be used to kill or maim a man quite readily.  Seriously, a stick or a staff is by no means a second-tier weapon.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I said it before: a hickory baton is a bone cruncher.  Other good, tough hardwoods too.
> 
> If you used a baton meant for destroying a person, it works very well.  It crunches bone, be it shin, kneecap, ankle, elbow, forearm, skull...it crunches them all.  But it does take serious intent and commitment to the strike.  In a training scenario, you cannot give the strike that kind of commitment.  You will send your training partners (or yourself) to the hospital.
> 
> ...




The baton I used in the video was as far as I can tell red oak. Will a good baton hit have the same effect against someone who trains iron shin or other hard body stuff? I do not train iron shin just for the record. I do train iron palm.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> The baton I used in the video was as far as I can tell red oak. Will a good baton hit have the same effect against someone who trains iron shin or other hard body stuff? I do not train iron shin just for the record. I do train iron palm.


I absolutely believe that I could readily smash someone’s shin who has been training iron shin.  It does not make you impervious.

Shin conditioning (which is all iron shin is) can thicken the shin bone through repeated hammering, which causes additional bone growth and toughens the bone.  It can also reduce the perception of pain by damaging the nerves, which might be practical in the short run, but is a bad thing in the long run.  Seriously, you want to keep your nerves.  Life is more pleasant when you can feel things, and the perception of pain warns you when you are injured and might need life-saving medical treatment.  The perception of pain is a very important life-saving trait.

Shin conditioning therefor can make the shin less susceptible to breaking and can make it somewhat easier for someone to shrug off a hit to the shin.

But I assure you, I could still smash a shin with my sticks.  He is gonna feel it, and it will destroy his support platform making it impossible for him to stand.

Shin conditioning can make the shins tougher, but it is not a magic spell.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I absolutely believe that I could readily smash someone’s shin who has been training iron shin.  It does not make you impervious.
> 
> Shin conditioning (which is all iron shin is) can thicken the shin bone through repeated hammering, which causes additional bone growth and toughens the bone.  It can also reduce the perception of pain by damaging the nerves, which might be practical in the short run, but is a bad thing in the long run.  Seriously, you want to keep your nerves.  Life is more pleasant when you can feel things, and the perception of pain warns you when you are injured and might need life-saving medical treatment.  The perception of pain is a very important life-saving trait.
> 
> ...



So how do you know that you would be able to do this? Maybe I am "drinking the kool-aid" but I find this hard to believe.

I believe I have said this before on here. But as long as I dont die tomorrow and live till I am 60 or such. I will be proud if I have arthritis and such due to iron palm. Because I am a martial artist and a warrior.


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## pdg (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> I believe I have said this before on here. But as long as I dont die tomorrow and live till I am 60 or such. I will be proud if I have arthritis and such due to iron palm. Because I am a martial artist and a warrior



60 really isn't much of a target with regard longevity.

And yeah, be a proud martial artist who can't wipe because you can't grip the toilet paper.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> So how do you know that you would be able to do this? Maybe I am "drinking the kool-aid" but I find this hard to believe.
> 
> I believe I have said this before on here. But as long as I dont die tomorrow and live till I am 60 or such. I will be proud if I have arthritis and such due to iron palm. Because I am a martial artist and a warrior.


Arthritis is a more significant issue than you seem to think. I try not to trade much of my future quality of life for what I want to accomplish today. I'm sure I'll have a few extra aches and pains because of what I've wanted to do and achieve, but I try to keep that to a minimum. I do a better job of that now than I did in my 20's.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Arthritis is a more significant issue than you seem to think. I try not to trade much of my future quality of life for what I want to accomplish today. I'm sure I'll have a few extra aches and pains because of what I've wanted to do and achieve, but I try to keep that to a minimum. I do a better job of that now than I did in my 20's.



Do you practice iron palm or such?


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## dvcochran (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Here is a video of me hitting my leg with a baton 3 times. I hit my leg 3 times making another video right before this one but I did not like how that turned out. This is why I feel batons are ineffective. They are only good for training. If I did this same thing with a knife I would be in serious trouble.
> 
> Anyways enjoy.
> 
> Kung fu leg hit.mp4


I could not get the video to run.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I could not get the video to run.



Because i took the video down. Thought everyone that was going to post had seen it. Also it could be done better.


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## dvcochran (Aug 22, 2019)

Rat said:


> They generally work, you don't really get to ask for what weapons you have on hand sometimes or can afford.
> 
> They should work pretty well if you thwack someone across the head a couple of times.
> 
> ...


I have a really hard time with that video. An extremely vague identification of what is and is not legal. Made up non numbers. A lot of BS. IMHO
IF you happen to be walking around with a baton AND it de-escalates a situation below a firing solution that is a win-win every time. I do agree that they have diminishing effects on people who are drunk or high.


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## dvcochran (Aug 22, 2019)

pdg said:


> 60 really isn't much of a target with regard longevity.
> 
> And yeah, be a proud martial artist who can't wipe because you can't grip the toilet paper.


Ah, the ignorance of youth. I applaud the mentality but there is gravity to our choices.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I have a really hard time with that video. An extremely vague identification of what is and is not legal. Made up non numbers. A lot of BS. IMHO
> IF you happen to be walking around with a baton AND it de-escalates a situation below a firing solution that is a win-win every time. I do agree that they have diminishing effects on people who are drunk or high.



Did you watch the playlist he made of the times a baton did not work?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> So how do you know that you would be able to do this? Maybe I am "drinking the kool-aid" but I find this hard to believe.
> 
> I believe I have said this before on here. But as long as I dont die tomorrow and live till I am 60 or such. I will be proud if I have arthritis and such due to iron palm. Because I am a martial artist and a warrior.


Yep, yer drinking the kool aid.

Trading a little arthritis for a body-conditioning practice that is completely unnecessary in the reality of today?  Idiotic.

Perhaps 300 years ago in China, when people needed to fight to protect their families and villages, When there was no police force to call for help, or if a police force existed it was used as a tool to oppress the commoners for the benefit of the elites, and the average life expectancy of a commoner might have been 40-50 years, it was a reasonable trade.  But today?  Hogwash.

Long ago people didn’t tend to live long enough to experience the longer term results of bad practice.  Now, you probably will.  You don’t want to get arthritis at 50 or 60, and life another 30-40 years with that constant pain that you did to yourself, for what amounts to bragging rights. 

Now, people need to be able to hold a good job until their 70s, that means typing and other fine motor skills.  If you’ve deadened your hands and arms?  Tough to make a living.  Your need for the possibility of self defense today does not justify that.

And how do I know I could still smash those bones with a good stick?  That does not take heavy research to understand.  I should not need to explain that to you.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Do you practice iron palm or such?


If you are practicing iron palm and you are anticipating eventual arthritis from it, you are probably not training it correctly.  You need a good teacher, this is not something to go off of YouTube instruction, and you need a high quality dit ja jow.  

And I could still smash your bones with a good stick.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 22, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Yep, yer drinking the kool aid.
> 
> Trading a little arthritis for a body-conditioning practice that is completely unnecessary in the reality of today?  Idiotic.
> 
> ...



Please explain it to me. I would very much like to know.



Flying Crane said:


> If you are practicing iron palm and you are anticipating eventual arthritis from it, you are probably not training it correctly.  You need a good teacher, this is not something to go off of YouTube instruction, and you need a high quality dit ja jow.
> 
> And I could still smash your bones with a good stick.



Does dit da jow work? I dont see any other systems using it. Do muay thai or karate use dit da jow? I am doing an experiment. I am pretty much just training my right hand. My left hand is being left alone.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Do you practice iron palm or such?


No.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 22, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Please explain it to me. I would very much like to know.
> 
> 
> 
> Does dit da jow work? I dont see any other systems using it. Do muay thai or karate use dit da jow? I am doing an experiment. I am pretty much just training my right hand. My left hand is being left alone.


Iron palm needs good instruction.  I am not a good instructor, I don’t practice it, I don’t know the methods, I don’t mess with it because I don’t want to get injured.  Good instructors are not easily found, this is an aspect of martial training that is not common. 

A fellow by the name of Dale Dugass practices and teaches iron palm, and he sometimes posts here.  I don’t remember if he posts under a pseudonym or if it is under his real name, but send him a message and ask for guidance.

Dit da jow is used in the Chinese methods, it is an herbal lineament that helps tissue heal.  Not all jow is equally good, not all jow is appropriate for iron palm.  You need to use the right stuff, as recipes vary and are often held as a secret.  It isn’t something you can simply find in the grocery store.  You need a good source, and brewing it can take a long time, not something you whip up in the kitchen over a weekend, it needs to age properly, I believe for years at a time.  Best to find someone who makes it and sells it.

Proper training practices with proper use of good and appropriate jow creates a conditioning that does not leave you crippled with a numb, club-like appendage.  Your hand should still be completely useable as a hand. 

I don’t know if the Japanese or Thai methods use similar methods to Iron Palm, or if they have an equivalent lineament to dit da jow.  If their methods result in numb or malformed appendages, then I suspect not.

But the bottom line is, you need a good teacher and a good jow, and you need to follow the instructions, or you can damage your body doing it.

And in my opinion, given how difficult it can be to find a good teacher, I feel the training is not necessary.  You can do some general conditioning like hitting a heavy bag, it helps and wont destroy your hands, and if you find a decent jow (they can be found in shops in the Chinatowns in big cities) it will help even if it is not good enough for iron palm.  For the needs of today, that is sufficient.  Real iron palm is overkill, and should be avoided if you aren’t absolutely certain that you are getting good instruction.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 22, 2019)

Using a baton/escrima stick effectively has at least 4 elements:  Striking a proper target, i.e. knee, wrist, head, etc.  Using proper striking technique, knowing how to maximize power at point of impact.  Using flow to quickly land multiple hits.  And the last thing that comes to mind is employing the empty hand in conjunction with the stick (or using double sticks.)


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## dvcochran (Aug 23, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Did you watch the playlist he made of the times a baton did not work?


Yes, I watched the video. I saw a lot of circular double-speak. Not much else.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 23, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Iron palm needs good instruction.  I am not a good instructor, I don’t practice it, I don’t know the methods, I don’t mess with it because I don’t want to get injured.  Good instructors are not easily found, this is an aspect of martial training that is not common.
> 
> A fellow by the name of Dale Dugass practices and teaches iron palm, and he sometimes posts here.  I don’t remember if he posts under a pseudonym or if it is under his real name, but send him a message and ask for guidance.
> 
> ...



My biggest issue is if you dont practice it why are you posting like you do? Second you act like you cant just buy this stuff on amazon. It is not 2005 anymore the internet is a great place to buy stuff. 

I am not in need of an instructor I already have a wing chun instructor. Already knew that about dit da jow. My questions on the japanese and muay thai traditions was a bit rhetorical. I am pretty sure they dont use dit da jow. 

Here is the first 2 lines taken from this wikipedia entry on dit da jow. 

Dit da jow - Wikipedia

*Dit da jow* is a common Chinese liniment used as a folk remedy to supposedly heal external injuries, such as bruises or sore muscles. There is no scientific evidence that it works as stated. 

Does dit da jow work any better than tylenol and ben gay or other over the counter stuff? I am going to go with no.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, I watched the video. I saw a lot of circular double-speak. Not much else.



I am not talking about the individual video that was posted I am talking about the playlist he talks about in the video. Did you watch all 11 videos in that playlist?


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## dvcochran (Aug 23, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> I am not talking about the individual video that was posted I am talking about the playlist he talks about in the video. Did you watch all 11 videos in that playlist?


No. I will still argue that 11 youtube videos are a terrible sampling to make such a broad decision. A baton is a tool. The first few times you pick up any tool it is likely not going to work very well for you. It takes a lot of practice to get proficient with it. Then start adding in all the other factors in an altercation. Such as proficiency with the baton, physical attributes, your experience, attackers experience, your intent, attackers intent, attackers mental/physical state, reaction time, etc...
Two circles on a white board and a dozen videos are not enough to convince me.


***Edit***I have used a baton (PR-24)successfully many times. They are a good deterrent and restraint tool if you know how to use them. They can be cumbersome if you have no backup. I have found myself in a bit of a stand-off situation a few times where I had one or both hand busy with the baton, making it hard to apply cuffs.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> No. I will still argue that 11 youtube videos are a terrible sampling to make such a broad decision. A baton is a tool. The first few times you pick up any tool it is likely not going to work very well for you. It takes a lot of practice to get proficient with it. Then start adding in all the other factors in an altercation. Such as proficiency with the baton, physical attributes, your experience, attackers experience, your intent, attackers intent, attackers mental/physical state, reaction time, etc...
> Two circles on a white board and a dozen videos are not enough to convince me.
> 
> 
> ***Edit***I have used a baton (PR-24)successfully many times. They are a good deterrent and restraint tool if you know how to use them. They can be cumbersome if you have no backup. I have found myself in a bit of a stand-off situation a few times where I had one or both hand busy with the baton, making it hard to apply cuffs.



So you are or were a police officer? Would your joint locks and pressure points and control hold without batons have worked as well? In the first video he is talking about grappling with a baton and how a person does not get much advantage with a baton. Like they would not be able to do a hold with a baton that they could not do without a baton.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> My biggest issue is if you dont practice it why are you posting like you do? Second you act like you cant just buy this stuff on amazon. It is not 2005 anymore the internet is a great place to buy stuff.
> 
> I am not in need of an instructor I already have a wing chun instructor. Already knew that about dit da jow. My questions on the japanese and muay thai traditions was a bit rhetorical. I am pretty sure they dont use dit da jow.
> 
> ...


So you know better?  Ok, keep doing what you are doing.  Send me a message and let me know how you are doing when you are typing with your nose. 

Best of luck to you.

As my old scuba instructor used to say, you give them a book and they just eat the pages...


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## jaime_lion (Aug 23, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> So you know better?  Ok, keep doing what you are doing.  Send me a message and let me know how you are doing when you are typing with your nose.
> 
> Best of luck to you.
> 
> As my old scuba instructor used to say, you give them a book and they just eat the pages...



I take it you don't use speech-to-text? I use that all the time.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> I take it you don't use speech-to-text? I use that all the time.


I would rather be able to type.


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## Buka (Aug 23, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> I am pretty much just training my right hand. My left hand is being left alone.



You might want to stop that five knuckle shuffle with one of these.


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## jaime_lion (Aug 23, 2019)

Buka said:


> You might want to stop that five knuckle shuffle with one of these.
> View attachment 22426



I dont get it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> I dont get it.


Read the post he quoted, but do it with bad intentions.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 23, 2019)

Buka said:


> You might want to stop that five knuckle shuffle with one of these.
> View attachment 22426


That took me a bit to get. Once I did I cracked up.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 23, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Here is a video of me hitting my leg with a baton 3 times. I hit my leg 3 times making another video right before this one but I did not like how that turned out. This is why I feel batons are ineffective. They are only good for training. If I did this same thing with a knife I would be in serious trouble.
> 
> Anyways enjoy.
> 
> Kung fu leg hit.mp4



I unfortunately cannot see your video.  I can tell you I carried a nightstick as an MP in the Marine Corps.  If I hit you with it, you would do more than say ow.  You could say it is ineffective, but the many chowerheads I was forced to subdue with it would probably argue otherwise.  But hey, lots of people I apprehended would later claim they beat me up.  Funny how they ended up in handcuffs anyway though, huh?


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## HongKongFooey.Returns (Sep 8, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> So how do you know that you would be able to do this? Maybe I am "drinking the kool-aid" but I find this hard to believe.
> 
> I believe I have said this before on here. But as long as I dont die tomorrow and live till I am 60 or such. I will be proud if I have arthritis and such due to iron palm. Because I am a martial artist and a warrior.



 Take it from someone that has arthritis in the knees and spine...you have no idea what you are wishing for. There are mornings I can barely move and walking down or up stairs is misery. Go ask some of the older guys that used to bang on a makiwara for years on end if they would trade hard knuckles for the ability to hold a fork to feed themselves.


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## HongKongFooey.Returns (Sep 8, 2019)

Buka said:


> You might want to stop that five knuckle shuffle with one of these.
> View attachment 22426


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