# Defence against chain punching



## Jean Marais (Nov 6, 2013)

What is an effective defence against a supprise rush on flurry of blows (which has already put you off balance and back pedelling) attack from a decent WT fighter?


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## Marnetmar (Nov 6, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> What is an effective defence against a supprise rush on flurry of blows (which has already put you off balance and back pedelling) attack from a decent WT fighter?



Assuming you are already in an on-guard stance, step forward and switch your mansau-wusau hands around so that you're on his inside.


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## arnisador (Nov 6, 2013)

Try getting off-line. If you're already going back, go back next step on a 45 degree angle outward rather than straight back.


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## Jean Marais (Nov 6, 2013)

No, when I said off balance I'm trying to say that I'm falling backwards and if the push against me was slightly harder/faster, I would really land on my bum.

I'm toying with the idea of letting myself "fall" away as if I'm half turning around so I would at least hit the ground in a kind of deep karate stance away from my opponant, and then use that bent knee furthest away from him as a type of spring to spring back. This "giving away" might put him off balance in his forward momentum which is good for when my momentum is suddenly springing back at him. 

It is insane trying to describe this with typing.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 6, 2013)

Then fall down, do a back roll to give yourself distance and come back fighting...or do what a Southern mantis guy I once sparred did to me when I got him off balance using Piquan (xingyiquan) fall back and bounce back up like a weeble and beat the heck out of the guy (in that case me) who knocked you down


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 6, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Try getting off-line. If you're already going back, go back next step on a 45 degree angle outward rather than straight back.



I have often wondered why people did not do that or do something along the lines of a tenkan from aikido


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## Jean Marais (Nov 6, 2013)

Good answeres. Thanks. 

Considering, rolling to get distance...I've seen a good WT fighter opponant simply follow quickly (he was somehow expecting the rolling away or had seen it before, I assume) and be there exactly when the fallen guy is trying to get back up (not a good ending for him).

The flip back up like a weeble works only if the supprise element holds (although this is in every movie, it always supprises me how often this really works and still holds supprise in real sparing).

A third option has just come to my mind...simply fall on your back but be in control. A skilled Jiu Jitzu fighter for example is not easy to approach if you're standing and he's laying on his back waiting for you. You won't take more damage and there is a break in the innitial rush. The downside is being prone to a second or third assailant. I'm sure a good oppertunity could then come alone to "get up" in whatever fasion.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> What is an effective defence against a supprise rush on flurry of blows (which has already put you off balance and back pedelling) attack from a decent WT fighter?



Solution 1: Use "stealing step" to move yourself to be outside of your opponent's striking path and hit back with a 45 degree downward "haymaker".






Solution 2: Let your opponent to run into your "toe push kick".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sEBouwCbiA&feature=youtu.be

Solution 3: Left "comb hair" on your opponent's right punch. right "comb hair" on his left punch. Move in and get him into a "head lock" or "double arm wraps".






Solution 4: ...


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 6, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> What is an effective defence against a supprise rush on flurry of blows (which has already put you off balance and back pedelling) attack from a decent WT fighter?



Use circular to defeat linear   ;-)


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## geezer (Nov 6, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> What is an effective defence against a supprise rush on flurry of blows (which has already put you off balance and back pedelling) attack from a decent WT fighter?



Since you are posting this question on a WC Forum, _I assume you want an answer that reflects a WC response_. A lot of the advice being offered comes from _other_ perspectives. The simplest response to a front punch is a counterpunch, and against a flurry of "chain-punches" you can respond equally with chain punches, deflecting the attacks and penetrating with your counterattack. This defense and counter is commonly called "punch-to punch" and is a great drill to practice. If the oncoming punch hits your bridge-arm too heavily to deflect, then you let your arm flex into tan-sau, and pivot or side-step and deliver a counterpunch simultaneously with the other hand.



Jean Marais said:


> ...when I said off balance I'm trying to say that I'm falling backwards and if the push against me was slightly harder/faster, I would really land on my bum.



You should never be staggering back on your heels. That's what we in WC/VT/WT want to do to the _other _guy. Don't pull back and withdraw your energy. A good WC guy will run right over you. Instead, _keep your energy pressing forward_. When your opponent "blasts" in with overwhelming force, you need to be able to maintain forward pressure and learn to use his force to turn or sidestep off-line _without giving up your own forward pressure_. If you learn to do this, you can deflect your opponent's "blast" and get a great angle to counterattack.

In other words, _you need to learn your stances and footwork. _Are you training yourself, or do you have a qualified sifu who can help you with this?


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## Jean Marais (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm going on the premise of "lost" balance or footwork.

In other words, _you need to learn your stances and footwork. _Are you training yourself, or do you have a qualified sifu who can help you with this?[/QUOTE]

I guess the question is about recovering your foot work, which is hard when he's pressing in so hard. I find the counter punching a viable option, but is that possible without having regained your footing.


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## Argus (Nov 7, 2013)

Some simple advice I was given: 

_Rather than backing off, or trying to "swat the flies", just leave your hand in the way._ If he tries to force his way through or move your hand, just respond to that pressure naturally.

It's always better to be attacking, of course, so geezer's response would be better. But if you are caught off-guard, don't panic and just leave your hand in the way.


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## K-man (Nov 7, 2013)

geezer said:


> You should never be staggering back on your heels. That's what we in WC/VT/WT want to do to the _other _guy. *Don't pull back and withdraw your energy.* A good WC guy will run right over you. Instead, _keep your energy pressing forward_. When your opponent "blasts" in with overwhelming force, you need to be able to maintain forward pressure and learn to use his force to turn or sidestep off-line _without giving up your own forward pressure_. If you learn to do this, you can deflect your opponent's "blast" and get a great angle to counterattack.


Absolutely spot on!


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## geezer (Nov 7, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> I'm going on the premise of "lost" balance or footwork.
> 
> I guess the question is about recovering your foot work, which is hard when he's pressing in so hard. I find the counter punching a viable option, but is that possible without having regained your footing.



If you've been unbalanced and lost your "root" it's tough to respond ...in any martial art. First practice turning and/or sidestepping so you can receive a forceful attack without getting bowled over. Have your training partner start out holding back a bit, then gradually increase his speed and power. Gain some confidence, then start working on recovering from being off balance since you will know where you want to be and how it should feel. 

In my lineage, we stress being yielding and springy with arms, turning and steps, so when our opponent is very strong, we work to compress, turn and use our opponent's pressure to slip aside. My old Chinese sifu used to use the analogy of a Spanish bullfighter. When the bull charges, he confuses the bull by putting his cape in front of its eyes and elegantly slips out of the way.

Now what about my question above? _Do you currently have a sifu who can help you or are you training on your own?_


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## Jean Marais (Nov 8, 2013)

I would like to humbly thank you and the others here for your reply. Since you insist... I'm posting the question here because I believe someone studying WT is most often both on the giving and the receiving side of this situation in his training. Therefore, I'll get the best answers here.*

On a side note, I've never studied Wing Chun, but from research, believe it to be the right path for me in the long term. Sadly, I only became aware of it (yes you may laugh) 3 or so years ago. Currently, with both parents working and 2 small children, it does not make sence to start at this point. 3 Weeks ago I started going once a week to a Ju Jutzu lesson (WT in the area and time schedule was not available) to gain some knowlege in ground work (not so much for joint/grapple/throw work, but for ground work which I've never been taught before or practiced). This week my wife and youngest were sick and I've already had to skip this week (this also effects my job, and the trend will continue for another 5 years or so). So my long term plan is too study Ju Jutzu basics the next 5 years and then start WT. As a child I attained a black belt after 6 very intense years of training in Shorin Ryu, so I understand what commitment is required to gain skill.

So for the next while, thanks to mobile tech advances, I can at least read whilst on the train. I hope the answers here also enrich others.*


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## Fritz (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm going to do my best not to sound like a jerk here...

But what you are asking already has you at a HUGE disadvantage. A technique that the kung-fu player is familiar and comfortable with is already in application, you are off balance, and worse backpedaling. 

Not much you can do really- not much of an effective counter at that point.

The counter or what to do, or how to defend starts a few steps back, as the KF dude moves into position and sets up their distance to start landing the punches- THAT is the time to move off line, extend the distance, or shorten it so they are uncomfortable. 

Once they have committed, many martial arts dudes will continue to try and use a waza/skill they are familiar with even if it is now not the most optimal due to distance and timing.


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## geezer (Nov 8, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> .... So my long term plan is too study Ju Jutzu basics the next 5 years and then start WT.



That's a good plan, but you don't have to wait 5 years before starting WT! A couple of years of jiu jutsu should give you a solid enough foundation to consider training a second art, especially a "stand-up" striking art like WT without causing confusion. I see you are in Berlin. The EWTO must have many schools there. I hear they are very expensive. But good instruction is worth a high price. Of course I am biased since my main instructor was Leung Ting, I also learned a bit from Emin Boztepe and I currently train under a man who spent a good deal of time training with the EWTO, including private sessions with GM Kernspecht. I believe standard of the EWTO instructors is very high indeed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 8, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> I've never studied Wing Chun, ... I believe someone studying WT is most often both on the giving and the receiving side of this situation in his training. Therefore, I'll get the best answers here



You have never studied WC but you are only interest in WC solution on WC chain punches, why? 



Kwan Sau said:


> Use circular to defeat linear   ;-)


Agree with you 100% there. The best solutions for the WC chain punches is not in the WC system.


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## Jean Marais (Nov 9, 2013)

I never explicitly expected a WC responce per say, but do expect the most experience in this regard from the WC community for the following reasons:*
1) From my research, I have read that the 3rd form of WC has, as one of it's main motives, the recovery from strongly disadvantaged and unbalanced positions.*
2) Also, as anyone can see, WC defence is hearted in the idea of continuously increaseing the forward pressure of a "relentless" (for lack of a better word) attack. The technique of this attack holds the genius, and unlike other systems it is practiced and refined. I.e. you train this specifically and as you need a partner, someone is always on the recieving side.
3) picking the "worst case" type of relentless off balancing attack...surely comes from an expert WC fighter. If there is a technique to regain control over a lost situation from a WC attack, chances are it could be applied to other similar assults.*

Some more personal background:
Every now and again I have seen fighters of other styles use the same "tactic" of rush push assult (also first hand) mostly with great success. I'll never forget winning a quarter final fight at the National Campionships of my Funakoshi Karate at the age of 13. I had lost to this exact fighter the previous year, but in the mean time I had learnt the "rules". In cumutae the fight is stopped after every time a point is scored (very bad training for real fighting, and I was already a rubbish fighter in any event, excelling rather in the KATAs). After scoring a quick few points to be leading, I simply played the clock down. Fainting attacks, using footwork...untill the time was nearly up. Then he came at me, all guns blazing in a complete rush on AND I WAS POWERLESS. I back pedalled blocking, aiming to reach the edge of the ring to step out (which you may do once without loosing a point). As I thought I was there, he wacked me with a supper high kick to the head at which point the ref called stop. I looked down at my back foot with relief to see it was outside the perimeter marking. The epon did not count as I had stepped out first, resulting in the halt and restart with 3 seconds left on the clock. I didn't win my next match and left the tournament with a bronze in the KATA division (which I still consider one of the most effort inputs on a goal in my life thus far. Damn did I work hard for it). After that tournament I realized that Karate will never make me a good fighter. It had taught me self dissapline, self confidence, a very few practicle applications and a deep respect for others. But it was time to stop. A year later I had my junior black, and quit to concentrate on mountainbiking and basket ball. In my small town of Port Elizabeth, down in South Africa, Kung Fu was only known from movies. Only after having moved to Manchester as an adult, did I start up again with martial arts and only after I had moved to Berlin 3 years later with my new family, did I become aware of WT.

Manchester training was a short but valuable experience in "mixed martial arts". I learnt basic boxing, kick boxing and aikido. Most of all I learn that the body must also learn to "deal" with receiving blows. A boxer who can't role with the punches won't last long and everyone gets hit at some point. If your body does not absorb, dissipate or deflect by reflex and or you freeze or "get rattled", you're gonna get wipped. We trained fighting often with gloves and head gear.

Family is my number 1 and I love it. But time is short (the parents had their first weekend away alone in 6 six years last month). I mention this in context to why I don't start WT now. Yes it is expensive and I need decent time for it.

Lastly:
I believe the situation is common enough and I doubt their is only one resolution. The fact that it is a common situation makes a resolution stradegy an important consideration on our quest for continuous improvement.

Although, I have no time to commit myself to WT training at this point, I'm hoping to find a partner to practice with who has some WT background. Because, as I said before, I believe WT is the right system for me in the long run, it would be benifitial to understand a WT type response.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 9, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> I believe WT is the right system for me in the long run, it would be benifitial to understand a WT type response.



 Since  to "use circular to defeat linear" is the best solution, and also since WC guys don't train "circular" approach, I can only say that to have "style boundary" is not a good idea. Should you cross train the WC system if you have the chance? Of course you should! Should you be restricted by the WC system thinking? Of course you shouldn't!

Here is an example that you use circular moves to deflect the straight line attack. The spear is the best "straight line attack weapon". It has only 3 techniques, 

1. the clockwise circle deflect, 
2. the counter-clockwise circle deflect, and 
3. the straight line stab.

Both 1 and 2 are used to counter 3.






When your opponent uses chain punches to attack your center, you have to protect your center from outside in instead of from inside out. 






Will you be able to find such principle in the WC system? I truly don't think so.


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## arnisador (Nov 9, 2013)

Many Jeet Kune Do branches make use of the chain punch also, and sometimes in a more running-forward manner. There are a lot of places  to look for ideas for counters--a JKD person from some lineages might say, try to duck under and shoot a tackle--but fewer if we're talking about traditional WC defenses. 

My belief is that in martial arts it's usually paper-scissors rock--A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A--for both people and systems. I'd look inside the box for WC answers and outside the box for other answers. I know people who'd just fall or turn into handstand and kick you as they do it. That isn't in my repertoire, but I'd sure watch a WC vs. Capoeira match!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 9, 2013)

Here is another example for "circular against straight line". The moment that your opponent puts weight on his leading leg, the moment that you sweep that leg.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDkyMTIzMDE2.html


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## geezer (Nov 9, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since  to "use circular to defeat linear" is the best solution ...WC guys don't train "circular" approach.
> 
> ....Will you be able to find such principle in the WC system? I truly don't think so.



_Kung Fu Wang:_ Wing Chun has _both_ lines and circles. Very small, efficient ones. It has been said that a circle shrunken infinitely becomes a point, which is also a section of a line. Like yin and yang, each contains the essence of its opposite. There is much more to Wing Chun than meets the eye. Dissolving a "straight blast" or "chain punching" included. 

For example, WC's "chain punches" actually circle over the top in an elongated oval. Biu-Tze teaches how to defeat that movement by shooting out biu-tze say circling in reverse, from bottom to top. There are many ways to defeat "chain punching" in WC. In fact it is something we contend with on a daily basis. Forgive me but it sounds like your knowledge of Wing Chun/Wing Tsun is superficial. What is your WC experience?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 9, 2013)

geezer said:


> Wing Chun has _both_ lines and circles. Very small, efficient ones. It has been said that *a circle shrunken infinitely becomes a point*, which is also a section of a line...



Could you show with a clip? I'm not very good in abstraction. :uhyeah:



geezer said:


> What is your WC experience?



WC is one of my cross training systems since 1973.


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## geezer (Nov 9, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> WC is one of my cross training systems since 1973.


 I became interested in it at about the same time. I can thank Bruce Lee for that. But my first exposure to kung fu was in a mixed animal style system I would now describe as "chop suey" I didn't begin training WC till '79 and met my main sifu in '80.  

Sorry about being too abstract for you. With all that talk about circles and lines and clips of spear fighting, I thought that was your cup of tea. Anyway, I don't have a clip for you. But if you have several decades of experience cross-training in WC, you will recognize how a line merges with a circle if you consider how, when confronted with greater force, a linear front punch can bend and roll over into bong-say, dissolving the attack with a rotational i.e. circular energy.

Regardless of all that, if we return to the OP, There are a lot of non-abstract and non WC ways to deal with a "chain-punching" charge. If you don't like turning or off-lining to deflect the assault laterally, how about changing levels, dropping under and shooting a take-down? If you time it right and do it hard and fast enough, there's little time for the puncher to respond effectively.


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 10, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best solutions for the WC chain punches is not in the WC system.



Humbly disagree. Perhaps not in 'your' particular flavor of Wing Chun.


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 10, 2013)

geezer said:


> Wing Chun has _both_ lines and circles. Very small, efficient ones. It has been said that a circle shrunken infinitely becomes a point, which is also a section of a line. Like yin and yang, each contains the essence of its opposite. There is much more to Wing Chun than meets the eye. Dissolving a "straight blast" or "chain punching" included.




Very well said!


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## arnisador (Nov 10, 2013)

There is a surprising amount of variety in how WC is actually done, despite the styles all sharing a common set of base moves.


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## geezer (Nov 10, 2013)

arnisador said:


> There is a surprising amount of variety in how WC is actually done, despite the styles all sharing a common set of base moves.



Absolutely. 

...And in my opinion _that's a good thing._ Yesterday I just finished a two day seminar with my original FMA instructor, GM Rene Latosa. Afterwards, we had an interesting discussion about how members of our group have different core arts ranging from boxing to ju-jutsu to kenp to Wing Chun, and so on. And each of us uses Escrima concepts in our fighting. So my WC/WT/VT although consistent with WC theory, is also informed by FMA and other stuff. Somebody else's may have a different flavor. Call me a heretic, but I'm good with that.


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## Jean Marais (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks guys. Great thread. Both liberal and conservative view points can enrich us. All responses are welcome (as well as critisisms). We don't have to agree (if we all agreed there would be no improvement).


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