# Tang Soo Do Organizations that focus on kata-based instruction



## Makalakumu

I've been doing some intense research for some projects I've been working on and one of the subjects I've been looking into are the various Tang Soo Do organizations.  In particular, I am wondering if there are any organizations that specifically teach Tang Soo Do as a kata-based art.  When I say "kata-based" I mean one that includes the striking, joint locking, throwing, pressure point, and defensive concepts that are recorded in Tang Soo Do hyung.  Has anyone ever come across an organization like this?  If so, who are they?  I'd like to make contacts if possible.


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## dancingalone

Makalakumu said:


> I've been doing some intense research for some projects I've been working on and one of the subjects I've been looking into are the various Tang Soo Do organizations.  In particular, I am wondering if there are any organizations that specifically teach Tang Soo Do as a kata-based art.  When I say "kata-based" I mean one that includes the striking, joint locking, throwing, pressure point, and defensive concepts that are recorded in Tang Soo Do hyung.  Has anyone ever come across an organization like this?  If so, who are they?  I'd like to make contacts if possible.



My answer isn't of much help.  I can tell you two of the larger orgs (ITF - CS Kim and WTSDA) don't use hyung in the fashion you mention.  Their patterns are mostly for rank requirements, for 'art', and for practicing idealized technique.  (Yes, I am sure someone will jump in and say their school does - maybe so, but it's not universal from the federation on down.)


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## Makalakumu

That's been my experience as well. Usually, it is an independent instructor who teaches Bunkai in TSD. I wonder if people would be interested in organizing?


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## dancingalone

Makalakumu said:


> That's been my experience as well. Usually, it is an independent instructor who teaches Bunkai in TSD. I wonder if people would be interested in organizing?



It depends on the goals I suppose.  Are you thinking about putting together a kenyukai or intead more of a formal org with a head instructor/leader, etc? 

I know of a handful of TSD who already blend in material from BJJ/Judo and George Dillman to 'activate' their patterns.  They go through a lot of trouble to cross train and honestly the results are a mixed bag IMO, as I don't think the integration is always the most seamless.  If someone offered a turnkey pathway from standard TSD towards bunkai oriented karate, I think it would catch on with a small, but very vibrant, group of practitioners.  Frankly, there would be interest too from TKD and punch/kick karate types.


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## Makalakumu

I've been thinking about the kenkyukai model for a long time. I've also thought about the concept of a MOOC and about combining them. There is no way I'd want to start a traditional org. I have so much to learn and there is no way I'd be giving myself any fancy titles, but I would like to organize something and maybe branch out in some way if possible. At the very least, I'll have four clubs, three lead by my students, who are following what I think is a great curriculum that ties it all together in philosophic and organized way.

I spent more time looking yesterday and I can't find anything like this that targets the TSD community.


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## JWLuiza

Why a TSD specific? Iain Abernethy's group has done all the work and everything is so darn close anyway.


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## Makalakumu

JWLuiza said:


> Why a TSD specific? Iain Abernethy's group has done all the work and everything is so darn close anyway.



Mainly because it's something my black belt students can access. Other than that, it's not so much TSD focused.

That said, as much as I love Iain, he hasn't produced much material on how to actually teach bunkai on a day to day business level. That is what I focus on.


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## dancingalone

Has anyone here actually tried to integrate Abernethy's (or McCarthy's or anyone else's) material into an existing system?  What were the results like? 

I'm not asking about training with him...


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## Makalakumu

I found that if you try to integrate it in a traditional way, it's problematic. Teaching Bunkai needs a new approach to curriculum.


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## dancingalone

That has long been my thought.  If you (figuratively) don't practice a system that studies pattern applications in a consistent, skill building approach in the first place, you'd in essence be switching styles.  And this with little support depending on where you live in relation to Abernethy, McCarthy, etc.

If you're willing to switch styles, I think it best just to find a good teacher close enough to you if you're serious about this.  I have a close friend who has been adding Combat Hapkido to his TKD through seminars & DVDs for a couple of years now.  Also know some others who are going through the BJJ + TSD route.  The results are somewhat of a mixed bag in my opinion though my friend is happy enough with what he is getting to press on with Combat Hapkido and blend it into his TKD hyung. 

I look forward to reading more about Makalakula TSD as it continues to grow and mature.


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## Makalakumu

dancingalone said:


> That has long been my thought.  If you (figuratively) don't practice a system that studies pattern applications in a consistent, skill building approach in the first place, you'd in essence be switching styles.  And this with little support depending on where you live in relation to Abernethy, McCarthy, etc.
> 
> If you're willing to switch styles, I think it best just to find a good teacher close enough to you if you're serious about this.  I have a close friend who has been adding Combat Hapkido to his TKD through seminars & DVDs for a couple of years now.  Also know some others who are going through the BJJ + TSD route.  The results are somewhat of a mixed bag in my opinion though my friend is happy enough with what he is getting to press on with Combat Hapkido and blend it into his TKD hyung.
> 
> I look forward to reading more about Makalakula TSD as it continues to grow and mature.



For me, its been a process of reverse engineering and identifying the skills I lacked. Then, I went out and trained in those skills. Then, I found that I needed to know more of the history and conceptual nature of what I was dealing, so I found what I needed there. Eventually, I think I concieved of a way it could all be woven together that I believe is close to what was originally taught. I don't know that for sure, but I do know that I like my end product and I think it makes sense.


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## kitkatninja

Makalakumu said:


> I've been doing some intense research for some projects I've been working on and one of the subjects I've been looking into are the various Tang Soo Do organizations.  In particular, I am wondering if there are any organizations that specifically teach Tang Soo Do as a kata-based art.  When I say "kata-based" I mean one that includes the striking, joint locking, throwing, pressure point, and defensive concepts that are recorded in Tang Soo Do hyung.  Has anyone ever come across an organization like this?  If so, who are they?  I'd like to make contacts if possible.



Not sure what is meant by _recorded in Tang Soo Do hyung_, but in our association we're taught alot more application of patterns than I learnt in other arts (Ni-sen, shotokan, etc).  It's actually part of our grading.


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## Makalakumu

kitkatninja said:


> Not sure what is meant by _recorded in Tang Soo Do hyung_, but in our association we're taught alot more application of patterns than I learnt in other arts (Ni-sen, shotokan, etc).  It's actually part of our grading.



How is it used in your grading? What is your teacher looking for? Interesting association. It looks very traditional.


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## kitkatninja

Makalakumu said:


> How is it used in your grading? What is your teacher looking for? Interesting association. It looks very traditional.



In the adults classes, instead of having just separate one-steps, we also do the application of patterns.  Our instructor looks for interpretation of the movements of the patterns as well, this is done in class not just gradings.

I do believe that this Tang Soo Do association is very traditional (even though it's the only TSD association that I've trained at, it isn't the only art that I've trained in), but then again traditional is one of those fuzzy terms (what may be for one, may not be for another)


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## Makalakumu

kitkatninja said:


> In the adults classes, instead of having just separate one-steps, we also do the application of patterns.  Our instructor looks for interpretation of the movements of the patterns as well, this is done in class not just gradings.
> 
> I do believe that this Tang Soo Do association is very traditional (even though it's the only TSD association that I've trained at, it isn't the only art that I've trained in), but then again traditional is one of those fuzzy terms (what may be for one, may not be for another)



Including the applications into the one steps is such an easy fix for organizations that don't really want to change very much of their curriculum.  That simple change makes the hyung a lot more useful.  We're doing something a lot different than that.  We practice all of the basics in the application, whatever those basics might be.  We practice the application until we have it down.  Then we spar a little with the concept and try to test it out.  IMO, this is the basic structure of kata based instruction.


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## chodancandidate

I am happy to say that my instructor is one of those people who teaches Bunkai as a part of our curriculum.  What I have to say, some may not want to here, but here goes.  It is not difficult to come up with and teach yourself bunkai.  All that has to be done is to think outside the box on your forms.  For example, in form #1, kee cho hyung il boo, we all know that the opening sequence is to turn 90 degrees to the left and perform a low block, step and middle punch, then make a 180 degree turn into another low block.  Most people would say that when you make the turn, you're turning to face a new opponent.  THINK OF HOW UNPRACTICAL THAT IS!  Why would you make this gigantic awkward turn to face a new opponent when you haven't even taken out the first opponent?  Think about it, a punch to someone's mid section is not a finishing technique!  It makes sense that if you're fighting with someone (fighting, not sparring), you would "low block" your opponent's lead hand, perform an outside wrist lock, which brings the opponent's head into your mid-section punch.  Then, if you haven't taken the opponent out already, make the turn and take your opponent down!  It is really that simple.  

You don't need someone to teach that to you, as long as you have the ability to think outside the box.  There is no wrong answer, there is only your interpretation.


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## kitkatninja

chodancandidate said:


> ...There is no wrong answer, there is only your interpretation.



That's right (and as long as it works) 

I mean one person that movement is a downward block, for another it pulling someone down then striking, to another it's an arm lock


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## reeskm

I'm curious in general... Since I haven't been to a lot of other style dojo's/dojangs other than as a guest once in a while:
How exactly would a kata-style/bunkai training method work exactly? What kind of lesson plan or class would that look like?

Would it be 
1) first learn that kata
2) learn applications
3) test them like you do with one steps, three steps or self defense (ho sin sool) drills? or even a free spar test?
4) discuss
?


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## Makalakumu

I wrote this book in order to provide an answer to your questions.

The Lost Art of Tang Soo Do by John Kedrowski (Hardcover) - Lulu


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## reeskm

LOL thanks for the book link.
I'll add it to my list of books to read.

I guess to answer your question - indirectly - it seems you have come up with a new way to teach TSD by focusing chiefly on the hyungs. Since you wrote the book on it, I doubt there are any current organizations that do things your way.

It's a very interesting concept and in no way do I think it's a bad idea. In fact, it's a great idea.
That being said, we have a well developed curriculum that is decided upon by senior masters, and it's my job to teach it. Change comes slowly!

We teach applications, but without reading your whole book - I"m guessing not in the method that you are promoting.


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## Makalakumu

I'm working on a second volume actually, where each kata has a set of lesson plans that incorporate all of the techniques and basic knowledge to teach applications effectively. The key is that you actually have to break the movements of the application into what we call basics and then use the principles of the application to spar.


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## reeskm

I am highly interested in your work. Please keep me in the loop!

But a question - by sparring in this case you do not mean sport sparring correct?
I'm envisioning that your applications would translate into a new set of one-step sparring (il-soo-sik dae-ryun)?

My students are starting to memorize the current set we have almost perfectly, and tying it directly into the hyungs would bring more meaning to our il-so-sik practice. :asian:


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## Makalakumu

By sparring I don't necessarily mean sport sparring, but some of those aspects could apply and be useful. I like to break down the movements of the bunkai by breaking it into the individual parts. This is what we call basics. Then, we put them together in what would resemble Ill Soo Shik until we have some simple demonstration that combines all of the basics we learned. Then, we'll start to look at the principles, variations and finally begin training with resisting partners until it looks like a controlled sparring situation. There are rules that maintain everyone's safety and the goals are specifically set in order to test the principle in a more lively situation. We always start slow and work up the intensity of sparring.

In my dojo, learning the bunkai as Ill Soo Shik is the beginning of being able to practice it. It's more of a memorization tool for principle, allowing practitioners to make a connection between basics, forms, bunkai and sparring.


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## King Mike

I just made this account, so you probably don't respect me that much...
I am in the Mi Guk Kwan (Grandmaster C. Ferraro) , they have all the forms that the International Tang Soo Do Federation (Grandmaster Kim)
plus more.
The one steps are pretty simple...there are 10 basic one steps, and 18 advanced....
The "Ho sin sul" (if you do those) are.... Cross-hand Grabs 1-4, Same side 1-4, Two hands on one 1-3, Two on Two 1-4, Side Grabs 1-2, and Behind the back grabs 1-2

The Mi Guk Kwan has:
28 One-steps
19 Self Defense Techniques (Ho Sin Sul)
Plus a few more forms than the International Tang Soo Do Federation....I was in the ITF 5 years ago, but I like the MGK way better.

Forms (Below Black Belt):
Kicho Hyung Il Bu
Kicho Hyung Ee Bu
Kicho Hyung Sam Bu
Chil Sung Ee Ro
Pyong Ahn Cho Dan
Pyong Ahn Ee Dan
Pyong Ahn Sam Dan
Pyong Ahn Sa Dan
Pyong Ahn Oh Dan
Chil Sung Il Ro
Bassai Dai (A.K.A "Bassai", "Bassai Hyung", or "Bassai Dae"...don't ask me why...)
Chil Sung Sam Ro
Nai Han Chi Cho Dan

There is a LOT more forms for black belt and above...I'm too lazy to write them all down. :lool:

I hope I helped out....
King Mike:wavey:


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## Badger1777

Makalakumu said:


> When I say "kata-based" I mean one that includes the striking, joint locking, throwing, pressure point, and defensive concepts that are recorded in Tang Soo Do hyung.  Has anyone ever come across an organization like this?  If so, who are they?  I'd like to make contacts if possible.



We do all of the above at our school. Its also considered a core requirement to grading that you can do all of the above.


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## reeskm

Welcome King Mike! We have bought all of GM Ferarro's videos and generally, I like them very much. This is exactly the same curriculum we have in our class at the moment. This also happens to align directly with the older out of print books published by the Tang Soo (Soo Bahk) Do Moo Duk Kwan, that are labelled according to belt colours: White, Yellow, Orange, Green and Red. This is why we bought and promote GM Ferraros' DVD set.

Mind you, they are not perfect. Then again, I have never seen a book or DVD on martial arts that dosen't have mistakes in it, or differs slightly depending on the instructor or artist demonstrating the techniques. It's hard enough for all of our black belts to be all on the same page in our school! But, GM Ferraro's set a definitive example, for sure.


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## reeskm

Badger1777 said:


> We do all of the above at our school. Its also considered a core requirement to grading that you can do all of the above.



With respect Badger, I do not believe any TSD school does what Makalakumu is doing right now. A lot of them say they do, but they don't.
What Makalakumu is doing is implementing a system similar to what Pat McCarthy of the IRKRS and Ian Abernathy have been promoting for many years: realistic self defense applications for real life or death sparring (not necessarily sport sparring) based directly off the hyungs.

He is not referring to the way "applications" are typically taught in the TSD way. The way I've always seen them is presented as an aside in the textbooks, (ex: this is against an overhead knife attack, with pic), or as a one off explanation during a class or seminar (ex: teacher asks the class: what's this for? and then demonstrates, or ex 2: you, come up here! punch at me, and i defend. this is what it's for!). This style is best suited to and most popular in Korea and my opinion is that it developed over many years of Koreans training the military, police and very large classes. They are the masters at it.

However, I would like to point out that my teacher would spend entire classes lecturing and teaching us the hidden movements and applications of forms. But, this was special and not a comprehensive lesson plan/systematic approach. It was because he felt like passing on what he had learned to his students at that particular moment.


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## TaiChiTJ

chodancandidate said:


> You don't need someone to teach that to you, as long as you have the ability to think outside the box.



With respect, we all need, I think, to learn the nuts and bolts of "thinking outside the box".

I am glad you have that skill, however not all of us have it. Someday someone will come up with a step-by-step approach to it. Perhaps the OP is moving in that direction.


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