# Judging Forms at Tournaments



## Azulx (Aug 21, 2017)

Are there any people here who have experience judging forms at open tournaments. What are things you look for to give the participants a high score?


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## DaveB (Aug 21, 2017)

Tournament forms are the devil's work and one of the biggest evils of TMA.

Not helpful I know, it's all I've got.


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## Azulx (Aug 21, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Tournament forms are the devil's work and one of the biggest evils of TMA.
> 
> Not helpful I know, it's all I've got.



What makes you say that?


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## DaveB (Aug 21, 2017)

Azulx said:


> What makes you say that?


Forms are for training and study.

You don't judge a javelin thrower by how nicely they lift weights, you don't go to a football game to watch the players do jumping jacks. 

Martial arts are for fighting. People gain other benefits from the training, but the arts exist to help people deal with violence.

When we make a big thing of forms we spread the idea that aesthetics have a place in the martial arts, and they do not. Because the next thing is people start altering forms to look pretty and then mangling techniques to look cool and then you have a dance instead of a fighting art.

A great many karate styles went through this in the 20th century and are only starting to recover.


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## Buka (Aug 21, 2017)

Azulx said:


> Are there any people here who have experience judging forms at open tournaments. What are things you look for to give the participants a high score?



I did about fifteen years judging Black Belt forms in open tournaments. But I don't know how to answer your question, probably do to phrasing. You don't look to "give" anything, you just judge - pretty much on the same tenets used by any style in teaching of it's forms.

And I know it probably seems strange coming from a guy who doesn't do forms at all, but I never once asked to judge, they asked me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2017)

Azulx said:


> What are things you look for to give the participants a high score?


- Eyes focus on the major hand.
- Body unification, all body parts start to move at the same time, and also stop at the same time.
- Hand coordinate with foot, elbow coordinate with knee, shoulder coordinate with hip.
- Soft -> hard -> soft -> ...
- Flow smoothly,
- Balance,
- Speed,
- Flexibility,
- Power generation,
- Personal flavor (this is art),
- ...


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## pgsmith (Aug 21, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Forms are for training and study.
> 
> You don't judge a javelin thrower by how nicely they lift weights, you don't go to a football game to watch the players do jumping jacks.
> 
> ...



Why do you think that aesthetics have no place in martial arts? It all depends on how you look at things, why you're doing martial arts, and what martial arts you are doing. The phrase "beautiful kendo" is a fairly common refrain from the highest level kendo practitioners. Aesthetics runs throughout most of the Japanese arts, in some form or another. It is all in how and why you approach the aesthetics that make the difference, in my opinion.


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

I hate forms In tournaments for the same reason I don't like point fighting people break the rules of their style to get a trophy. A lot of form guys you'll see doing huge circular motions when in a normal class they would be told to not do that


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> Why do you think that aesthetics have no place in martial arts?



They do but the beauty is in the proper execution of the technique, in the throw, the strike and in how you use your techniques to gain the upper hand against your opponent. Beauty is watching a kata being done with meaning, power and understanding which is unlikely to be considered 'pretty' by a judge looking to award points, the 'award' you get from doing and knowing your kata is having efficient weapons in your arsenal.
Kata done for competition has all the 'untidy' but necessary bits taken out, the ones doing the kata's should also be able to demonstrate techniques from the kata which as they have taken a lot out or moved hands/feet/arms to make it look more pleasing could be difficult.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Forms are for training and study.
> 
> You don't judge a javelin thrower by how nicely they lift weights, you don't go to a football game to watch the players do jumping jacks.
> 
> ...


That depends upon your viewpoint. Some folks aren't interested in fighting (take a look at Shin-shin-toitsu Aikido). And some folks enjoy finding other uses for training methods (Billy Blanks did a great job of turning some into great exercise). There's nothing wrong with forms competition as an aesthetic art. I will say aesthetics should be a secondary consideration (or less) in training, other than training for competition.


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## DaveB (Aug 21, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> Why do you think that aesthetics have no place in martial arts? It all depends on how you look at things, why you're doing martial arts, and what martial arts you are doing. The phrase "beautiful kendo" is a fairly common refrain from the highest level kendo practitioners. Aesthetics runs throughout most of the Japanese arts, in some form or another. It is all in how and why you approach the aesthetics that make the difference, in my opinion.



As Tez posted, the beauty of the martial arts are incidental. I appreciate the aesthetics and I appreciate them more when they showcase proficiency or deep understanding.
However my problem is when you make the beauty the point. 

I've no problem with what the individual does or what they get out of training. My issue is with a collective message that the appearance of the form has value. 

Again consider the examples I gave: to start awarding Javelin medals by judging the form of the Javelin thrower's weight lifting would make a mockery of the sport. 

Or better yet to judge how the thrower centres himself, hoists the Javelin, and how dramatically he strides to the throw line and mimes throwing the javelin.

By giving medals for these vaguely martial dances we say that doing karate is the aim, not being able to use karate, just going to class and doing it. Better still putting on a show.

That conflation muddies the already murky water over what a martial art is.


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## CB Jones (Aug 21, 2017)

If forms and kata is the devils work...why do them at belt tests?

Wh not base belts strictly on fighting ability?


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## pgsmith (Aug 21, 2017)

DaveB said:


> As Tez posted, the beauty of the martial arts are incidental. I appreciate the aesthetics and I appreciate them more when they showcase proficiency or deep understanding.
> However my problem is when you make the beauty the point.
> 
> I've no problem with what the individual does or what they get out of training. My issue is with a collective message that the appearance of the form has value.
> ...


 
  As I said in my earlier response, it depends on what martial art you are practicing, and how you approach aesthetics. You tossed a blanket statement saying beauty The vast majority of the koryu arts that I've practiced are taught through kata. A properly done kata is much more than a dance, and a devastating cut delivered precisely where it is obviously supposed to be is a beautiful thing to watch. If you subtract from the beauty of that cut, then you've made it less effective, because that's where the true beauty lies.  

  You threw out a blanket statement saying that aesthetics has no place in the martial arts, I simply disagreed with you. I have no idea what happens at karate tournaments or who gets medals for what as I've never actually seen one, and this seems to be what you're referring to. However, In the martial arts that I am familiar with, you would not be judging the javelin thrower's weight lifting, as that is totally disconnected from throwing a javelin. In my arts you would judge the javelin thrower based on the smoothness of his run-up and wind-up, whether he has exhibited a smooth and effortless center twist to generate the proper torque, whether his javelin is properly gripped and thrown at the height of his power arc, and how much distance he has attained through his throw. You are trying to say that all of the aesthetics don't matter, and it only matters how far he throws the javelin. However, without the proper mechanics (aesthetics), the thrower will not achieve his maximum distance.

  Proper form in the martial arts is there for a reason, and striving for proper form is necessary for much more than just aesthetics. However, you can fairly easily judge someone's progress and standing just by observing how well they adhere to proper form in their movements. This, in my opinion and experience, is the reason for forms in tournaments. Of course, it also depends upon the ability of the judges to be able to properly evaluate the competitors.


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## CB Jones (Aug 21, 2017)

And where we compete it's not about beauty.

It's about technique and the ability to effectively combine that technique with speed and power.


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## JR 137 (Aug 21, 2017)

@Azulx

Here's some info from my organization's kata judging criteria.  Not sure how applicable it will be, but it seems pretty universal to me.  Scoring and what they're looking for are on pages 1-2...

https://www.regonline.com/custImages/400000/407854/Go-En_AdultTournRulesRegs.pdf

Edit: The rule that I noticed that's different from every other tournament I've seen is allowing a competitor to start a kata over again (for a full point deduction).  I haven't seen that one anywhere else.


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## DaveB (Aug 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> If forms and kata is the devils work...why do them at belt tests?
> 
> Wh not base belts strictly on fighting ability?


Why have belt tests at all?

I didn't say I had a problem with forms, my issue is with kata competition. You may want to re-read what's been said on the subject.


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## DaveB (Aug 22, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> As I said in my earlier response, it depends on what martial art you are practicing, and how you approach aesthetics. You tossed a blanket statement saying beauty The vast majority of the koryu arts that I've practiced are taught through kata. A properly done kata is much more than a dance, and a devastating cut delivered precisely where it is obviously supposed to be is a beautiful thing to watch. If you subtract from the beauty of that cut, then you've made it less effective, because that's where the true beauty lies.
> 
> You threw out a blanket statement saying that aesthetics has no place in the martial arts, I simply disagreed with you. I have no idea what happens at karate tournaments or who gets medals for what as I've never actually seen one, and this seems to be what you're referring to. However, In the martial arts that I am familiar with, you would not be judging the javelin thrower's weight lifting, as that is totally disconnected from throwing a javelin. In my arts you would judge the javelin thrower based on the smoothness of his run-up and wind-up, whether he has exhibited a smooth and effortless center twist to generate the proper torque, whether his javelin is properly gripped and thrown at the height of his power arc, and how much distance he has attained through his throw. You are trying to say that all of the aesthetics don't matter, and it only matters how far he throws the javelin. However, without the proper mechanics (aesthetics), the thrower will not achieve his maximum distance.
> 
> Proper form in the martial arts is there for a reason, and striving for proper form is necessary for much more than just aesthetics. However, you can fairly easily judge someone's progress and standing just by observing how well they adhere to proper form in their movements. This, in my opinion and experience, is the reason for forms in tournaments. Of course, it also depends upon the ability of the judges to be able to properly evaluate the competitors.



I agree with everything you wrote up to the last paragraph. 

This is precisely the problem I feel exists due to kata competition: that the change in focus from form as a tool to achieve victory in combat to form for forms sake, produces paper tigers who can look the part, but who lack everything else you need to be able to apply their martial art.

A solo form doesn't tell us if you can block a punch or synch your footwork or adjust to unscripted responses or select the best attack for the situation or lay traps for the opponent etc etc etc.

You say that if the aesthetic elements aren't in place the javelin thrower cannot maximise his range, so then surely range is all you need judge. By fixing the form to one ideal you limit potential for individual variation and development through the orthodox. Where if we consider the results and look for consistency in them we can find the best practice for the individual and know that it works. You have a living breathing art and not just a ritual pattern devoid of meaning.

I'm sure in the koryu arts you spend enough time on the practical side for this not to be a big concern, but us gendai people have had to recreate that aspect (at least in karate) because of the disconnect from reality that occurred. Part of that disconnect was the myths around kata and the culture of "doing" karate rather than fighting with karate.


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## DaveB (Aug 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> And where we compete it's not about beauty.
> 
> It's about technique and the ability to effectively combine that technique with speed and power.



All of which is meaningless without an opponent and cannot really be judged by observation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> All of which is meaningless without an opponent and cannot really be judged by observation.


Not entirely. I can tell if a student is putting power in a strike without them hitting anything. I can tell by te structure of a block if it is likely to be useful. I can tell by their smooth (or not) movement if they are making controlled transitons. 

I'm not a fan of form nit-picking (precise angles, minute adjustments of hand positions). Viewing them for aesthetics is fine as a sideline, or as something separate from fight training. Within fight training? Okay, so long as it's the functional pieces that are part of the aesthetic. I suspect testing forms became common practice in order to test many students at once. I'm not a fan of testing forms (and I do it), except as a training tool they must know to participate in the curriculum past that point.


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## CB Jones (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> All of which is meaningless without an opponent and cannot really be judged by observation.



You can't judge form or technique without an opponent?

Thats absurd.


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## CB Jones (Aug 22, 2017)

Azulx said:


> Are there any people here who have experience judging forms at open tournaments. What are things you look for to give the participants a high score?



Stances are strong

Techniques are crisp, clean, and powerful.

Transition from techniques and stances are smooth.

Balance is maintained throughout.

Eyes are focused on the spot they are striking at.

If you aren't familiar with the form...you are essentially judging each technique, stance, and transition individually for mistakes and totaling them up to get the score.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> However, In the martial arts that I am familiar with, you would not be judging the javelin thrower's weight lifting, as that is totally disconnected from throwing a javelin. In my arts you would judge the javelin thrower based on the smoothness of his run-up and wind-up, whether he has exhibited a smooth and effortless center twist to generate the proper torque, whether his javelin is properly gripped and thrown at the height of his power arc, and how much distance he has attained through his throw. You are trying to say that all of the aesthetics don't matter, and it only matters how far he throws the javelin. However, without the proper mechanics (aesthetics), the thrower will not achieve his maximum distance.



I think the problem is that it seems many katas for competitions now include gymnastics and it's these that are being judged as being part of kata. One doesn't just do a kick one does a flying kick then a back flip, that sort of thing. Rather than the javelin analogy I think it's more a somersault one, you are judging people on their martial arts ability and their kata by watching them do moves designed to look flashy and more like film stunts than good practical kata.


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## pgsmith (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> You say that if the aesthetic elements aren't in place the javelin thrower cannot maximise his range, so then surely range is all you need judge. By fixing the form to one ideal you limit potential for individual variation and development through the orthodox. Where if we consider the results and look for consistency in them we can find the best practice for the individual and know that it works. You have a living breathing art and not just a ritual pattern devoid of meaning.


 You misunderstand the actual usage and role of kata within the Japanese arts. They are not meant to cause everyone to do things exactly the same, they are meant to teach your body how to properly respond. Since everyone's body is different, the exact movement of the kata will be a bit different also. However, a strike using your center is still a strike using your center, and someone using only their arms would be wrong. That's pretty easily identified.



Tez3 said:


> I think the problem is that it seems many katas for competitions now include gymnastics and it's these that are being judged as being part of kata. One doesn't just do a kick one does a flying kick then a back flip, that sort of thing. Rather than the javelin analogy I think it's more a somersault one, you are judging people on their martial arts ability and their kata by watching them do moves designed to look flashy and more like film stunts than good practical kata.


  Ah, I've seen videos of some of those. Very athletic and fancy, and probably requiring a lot of practice to memorize correctly. They are fancy dance moves probably more related to Dancing with Stars rather than MMA Fight Night.   Reminds me of a story told by John Ray sensei, a high level practitioner of Japanese sword arts (MJER iaido). He said he had just returned to Texas after living in Japan for a number of years. He saw an advertisement for a local karate tournament with a weapons forms division. In Japan, iaido forms competitions are fairly common, so he thought he'd give it a go and meet some of the local martial artists at the same time. So he got up and did his three iaido kata when his number was called. All the other competitors had jumps and spins and twirls in theirs. He said the judges called him over afterward and thanked him for competing as they'd always wanted to see real iaido, but they had no idea what to make of it as that wasn't what their weapons forms were about. Needless to say he didn't win. 

  I can see why some folks would have issues with that. However, if they don't agree with that sort of showmanship (not my thing either!) then just avoid those types of tournaments. If their organization judges forms based on flash instead of substance, its time to either change organizations, or work to change their organization's outlook. You can't just condemn other people's thoughts on it, in my opinion, since it is apparent that many people must like it that way.


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## CB Jones (Aug 22, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> However, if they don't agree with that sort of showmanship (not my thing either!) then just avoid those types of tournaments.



Agree.  We compete in open tournaments and organizations....but they are still traditional kata competitions and not the XMA or non traditional types.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 22, 2017)

Don't give points.  Start with maximum score.  Take away a point for each observed error.  Note that 'a point' may be measured in whole numbers or or percentages of numbers, which you'll be told before the tournament starts.  For example "This group of competitors will be graded from 3.50 to 4.00."  Then you'd take off .1 for each error, something along those lines.

In a closed tournament, I am looking for errors in the kata based on what the parameters are for each kata - which I should be aware of as a yudansha.  If it is an open tournament, it's more difficult, since the competitors may be performing a kata or form I am not familiar with.  However, some things are commonly seen as errors, such as an excessive pause (usually accompanied by a panicked look) indicating the competitor has forgotten or is unsure what to do next, or not ending up facing the direction they started, or 'sloppy' movements (depending on belt level and age), and so on.  Crispness, balance, speed (with clean moves), power, flow, confidence, these always tend to show through.

I was worried the first few times I was asked to judge, but soon realized that my scores were within fractions of the scores other judges were giving on the same competitor, so I was apparently seeing the same things they were.  So it was all good.

Best of luck!

Trust me, judging kumite is tougher.


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## CB Jones (Aug 22, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Don't give points.  Start with maximum score.  Take away a point for each observed error.  Note that 'a point' may be measured in whole numbers or or percentages of numbers, which you'll be told before the tournament starts.  For example "This group of competitors will be graded from 3.50 to 4.00."  Then you'd take off .1 for each error, something along those lines.
> 
> In a closed tournament, I am looking for errors in the kata based on what the parameters are for each kata - which I should be aware of as a yudansha.  If it is an open tournament, it's more difficult, since the competitors may be performing a kata or form I am not familiar with.  However, some things are commonly seen as errors, such as an excessive pause (usually accompanied by a panicked look) indicating the competitor has forgotten or is unsure what to do next, or not ending up facing the direction they started, or 'sloppy' movements (depending on belt level and age), and so on.  Crispness, balance, speed (with clean moves), power, flow, confidence, these always tend to show through.
> 
> ...



Great explanation


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## DaveB (Aug 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> You can't judge form or technique without an opponent?
> 
> Thats absurd.



I didn't say that, I said they are meaningless without an opponent.

Form for forms sake is dance. Show me correct form when you are being attacked, that would impress me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I didn't say that, I said they are meaningless without an opponent.
> 
> Form for forms sake is dance. Show me correct form when you are being attacked, that would impress me.


Pretty much every MA I've seen at times pays attention to form absent an opponent. Let's use boxing as an example: work on the heavy bag, head movement work with a static line (and later without it), shadowboxing. When doing those things, an experienced boxing coach (and most experienced boxers) can tell quite a bit about the individual's movement. That gets combined with using that movement against an opponent. Forms do not inherently divorce the two - they are simply one side of the pair.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I didn't say that, I said they are meaningless without an opponent.
> 
> Form for forms sake is dance. Show me correct form when you are being attacked, that would impress me.



OK, so that's a valid, but subjective, opinion.

Consider that there are tournaments and people compete in them.  Regardless of your opinion of forms or kata, these competitions exist.  If asked to judge in one, and one agrees to do so, one typically tries to overlook the vast meaninglessness of it all and follow the norms of judging such things.


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## DaveB (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Pretty much every MA I've seen at times pays attention to form absent an opponent. Let's use boxing as an example: work on the heavy bag, head movement work with a static line (and later without it), shadowboxing. When doing those things, an experienced boxing coach (and most experienced boxers) can tell quite a bit about the individual's movement. That gets combined with using that movement against an opponent. Forms do not inherently divorce the two - they are simply one side of the pair.



But that's exactly my point. 

Forms are a training tool. They exist to help us develop into capable martial artists. They are not to be judged just as you don't win a boxing match by shadow boxing.

It's this wooly b.s. that enables so much of what dropbear and Martial D would call fantasy martial arts. Instead of adopting a simple direct understanding of hit or be hit fighting and self defence the arts are cluttered with baggage like this. Perfection of form as an end in it's self; martial arts as character building; mastery requiring 30 years of study... all of these things are fabricated romanticism unrelated to any but the most modern arts (that I'm aware of- I'm sure someone will correct me). All just ways of people saving embarrassment from getting beaten up. And rather than challenging those people to live up to the perfection of character rhetoric; to take their beating and use it as fuel for improvement, we allow the proliferation of myth and magic and interpretive dance

Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!


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## CB Jones (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!



That is your opinion and while you are entitled to your opinion in the end it is still just your opinion.

So we can agree to move on.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!



I don't agree with that but I would like kata to be proper kata with no added tricks, bells or whistles. I would like the kata to be recognisable and not something done to look like film choreography, though perhaps a class for a scripted fight might make a good competition!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!


I have always hated people who associate MA training with "health". May be I have changed. When you get older, you no longer spar/wrestle, what will you do all day?

I used to believe what you believe. I have learned a lot of forms. I was also strongly against form training. I believe form is for teaching/learning but not for training. I even mentioned this to my long fist teacher and made him mad at me big time. My long fist teacher just passed his 91 years birthday this year, May be his good health came from his life long form training.

You can maintain your health by

1. running,
2. weight lifting,
3. MA drill combo (or form) such as right side kick, left back kick, right roundhouse kick, right hammer fist, left straight punch.

IMO, 3 > 1 or 2

When you drill 3, you can maintain your

- balance,
- flexibility,
- body coordination,
- endurance (if you repeat it N times non-stop),

that both running and weight lifting won't be able to give you.


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## Headhunter (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I don't agree with that but I would like kata to be proper kata with no added tricks, bells or whistles. I would like the kata to be recognisable and not something done to look like film choreography, though perhaps a class for a scripted fight might make a good competition!


I remember years ago on britains got talent there was this girl who said she's a karate champion and did a display but it was literally nothing but cartwheels and the odd kick. I remember thinking at the end nice gymnastics but where was the karate


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## Headhunter (Aug 22, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One day when you are 70 years old, your opinion on this may change.
> 
> I used to believe what you believe. I have learned a lot of forms. I was also strongly against form training. I believe form is for teaching/learning but not for training. I even mentioned this to my long fist teacher and made him mad at me big time. My long fist teacher just passed his 91 years birthday this year, May be his good health came from his life long form training.
> 
> ...


Kata is fine but the competitions make people turn their kata into ridiculous movements that break every rule of their martial art


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Kata is fine but the competitions make people turn their kata into ridiculous movements that break every rule of their martial art


Agree! In CMA, there are 3 ways to drill your form:

1. fighting - punch out fast, pull back fast.
2. health - punch out slow, pull back fast (or slow).
3. performance - punch out fast, freeze your arm in the thin air, pull back fast.

If you fight as your perform (or the other way around) then you are wrong.


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## CB Jones (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Kata is fine but the competitions make people turn their kata into ridiculous movements that break every rule of their martial art



But not all competitions and competitors do this.  

There are org that frown on "XMA / Non-Traditional" type katas and weapon forms.

It isn't the competition aspect of it to blame....it's the organization or Dojo fault.


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## Headhunter (Aug 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> But not all competitions and competitors do this.
> 
> There are org that frown on "XMA / Non-Traditional" type katas and weapon forms.
> 
> It isn't the competition aspect of it to blame....it's the organization or Dojo fault.


And that just causes more confusion. People who enter competitions will see some places wanting really low stances and some wanting really high stances and that'll just mess up their training because they won't be training their form consistently. I believe karate competitions are a waste of time because the competitions strip away what the style is teaching. Karate was made for self defence so it includes groin shots, knees elbows, eye gouges, throat strikes but then all those are illegal moves in competitions so you spend years training the student to do those moves then tell them they can't use them if they want to win a trophy. 

Point fighting and kata tournaments have given karate such a bad name. People think that all karate people do is tap fighting because that's all that's seen in competition, they think the forms are stupid gymnastics and over the top movements because that's what's seen in tournaments. If katate wants to be taken seriously again I believe it should seriously update it's Tournament rules and get rid of the rubbish it is today or stop them completely.


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## DaveB (Aug 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> But not all competitions and competitors do this.
> 
> There are org that frown on "XMA / Non-Traditional" type katas and weapon forms.
> 
> It isn't the competition aspect of it to blame....it's the organization or Dojo fault.



I think XMA, though annoying, bother me less than traditional org kata comps. They (XMA and the like) are a gymnastic dance and they know it. They are being true to themselves. 

Within karate at least kata became an end rather than a means. 
Then a whole mythos was created to justify all the time and energy spent doing something that does not aid your ability to defend yourself. That self delusion bugs me more than people who want to dance like Bruce Lee on crack.


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## CB Jones (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter,

You are entitled to your opinion.


For the most part, I don't understand why some people worry so much about what other people are doing.

If you aren't into competition that's fine but why the need to disparage people who do.

You don't like the formats of the competitions don't go to them or start your own organization and do it how you feel it should be.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 22, 2017)

I gladly await the first fool who puts his big mouth to use at a local tournament by agreeing to judge kata, then refusing because it's all a fraud. I'd pay to see that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> But that's exactly my point.
> 
> Forms are a training tool. They exist to help us develop into capable martial artists. They are not to be judged just as you don't win a boxing match by shadow boxing.
> 
> ...


Kata competition doesn't cause any of the woes you ascribe to it, so long as good, "live" training methods are also used. People can go and gawk at an engine, and that doesn't make the engine less effective. Even if that gawking occasionally leads the owner to add bits of chrome that aren't really necessary to the effective function of the engine, that won't be a problem, so long as the original purpose of the engine is still fulfilled by proper maintenance, etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveB said:


> But that's exactly my point.
> 
> Forms are a training tool. They exist to help us develop into capable martial artists. They are not to be judged just as you don't win a boxing match by shadow boxing.
> 
> ...


Oh, and the martial arts as character building - that's actually far more useful in most people's lives than the fighting use. In fact, it often makes the fighting less likely to happen.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I don't agree with that but I would like kata to be proper kata with no added tricks, bells or whistles. I would like the kata to be recognisable and not something done to look like film choreography, though perhaps a class for a scripted fight might make a good competition!


I don't mind the acrobatics, but to me they belong in an acrobatics competition or a dance competition.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Kata is fine but the competitions make people turn their kata into ridiculous movements that break every rule of their martial art


Only if the judging rules favor that. The problem is the criteria, not the competition, itself.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> And that just causes more confusion. People who enter competitions will see some places wanting really low stances and some wanting really high stances and that'll just mess up their training because they won't be training their form consistently. I believe karate competitions are a waste of time because the competitions strip away what the style is teaching. Karate was made for self defence so it includes groin shots, knees elbows, eye gouges, throat strikes but then all those are illegal moves in competitions so you spend years training the student to do those moves then tell them they can't use them if they want to win a trophy.
> 
> Point fighting and kata tournaments have given karate such a bad name. People think that all karate people do is tap fighting because that's all that's seen in competition, they think the forms are stupid gymnastics and over the top movements because that's what's seen in tournaments. If katate wants to be taken seriously again I believe it should seriously update it's Tournament rules and get rid of the rubbish it is today or stop them completely.


IMO, kata for competitions shouldn't be a different thing, though. You should bring your best kata, and just let it be judged. If there are small adjustments that could be made, okay, but why bother?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 22, 2017)

Same old thing. Kata sucks, punching air sucks, kumite sucks, point sparring sucks, only real unscripted all out brawling teaches anything. Yawn. Go away, troll.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 22, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Same old thing. Kata sucks, punching air sucks, kumite sucks, point sparring sucks, only real unscripted all out brawling teaches anything. Yawn. Go away, troll.


Yup.  OP asked what judges are looking for, and it instantly turned into "there shouldn't be kata competition" and "competitive karate gives us all a bad name."

How about if one doesn't have any insight into the actual question being asked, one should simply not say anything?  Radical concept, for sure.


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 22, 2017)

Sorry, I just don't think these people are ruining Karate.

(Kata and weapons forms video starts at 49 second mark.)








Its a good group of people that train hard and have dedicated a lot of their lives to karate and shouldn't be disrespected just because you don't like competition.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Funny story: a Ryu-kyu Kempo instructor was asked to judge weapons forms at a competition. First person steps up to do nunchaku kata, does the whole thing with flashy speed 'chucks. Ryu-kyu guy takes a set of wooden nunchaku from his bag, hands them to the guy (grown-up), and says, "Do it again with these." He wasn't asked back to judge.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 23, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Headhunter,
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion.
> 
> ...


Who's worrying this is a discussion page about martial arts. I do disagree and I'm gonna say I do. im not telling anyone what to do. i think its a waste of time so i'm going to say that because that's the whole point of the forum, what do you want me to talk about? My holidays?

I always love that line. You're entitled to your opinion but then tell me that basically I'm not. Sorry if it upsets you...nah I'm not that's my opinion so I'm going to say it. Don't like it there's an ignore button you can use


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I gladly await the first fool who puts his big mouth to use at a local tournament by agreeing to judge kata, then refusing because it's all a fraud. I'd pay to see that.


I have judged at them before this guy entered a traditional forms category then started going back flips and cartwheels and breakdancing with the odd punch and kick thrown in, no stances no anything that really resembled martial arts. Everyone else gave him top score, I gave him a 0. Never got asked back, funny that


----------



## Streetfighter2 (Aug 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Same old thing. Kata sucks, punching air sucks, kumite sucks, point sparring sucks, only real unscripted all out brawling teaches anything. Yawn. Go away, troll.


Someone's triggered. Point fighting does suck.. Ooh look I punched 5 feet away from him give me a point wooo I'm a world champion.


----------



## Streetfighter2 (Aug 23, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Sorry, I just don't think these people are ruining Karate.
> 
> (Kata and weapons forms video starts at 49 second mark.)
> 
> ...


You're just upset that your kid doeś it and people are saying he's wasting his time. You seem to talk a lot for a guy who's martial art experience is driving his kid to karate class. I love how you always say "we" enter tournaments...nah mate you don't enter them your kid does. Are you one of those parents who takes credit for every bit of success he has and say it was all down to you


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> You can't judge form or technique without an opponent?
> 
> Thats absurd.


A technique involves:

1. opportunity,
2. timing,
3. angle,
4. power,
5. balance.

Without opponent, opportunity, timing, and angle will have no reference point. Even the power, punching into the thin air is different from punching on  an object. Also the solo balance is different from the balance during contact.

For example, you may maintain good balance when throwing a side kick into the thin air. But when a 300 lb guy runs toward you and tries to take your head off, can your side kick be able to knock him down and still remain balance yourself?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 23, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A technique involves:
> 
> 1. opportunity,
> 2. timing,
> ...


Something that we used to do was practice the forms on the body. E.g if the first move is a step back with an inward block then we get someone to step in with the required punch. That way you work on your balance and your rotation and the timing of your block in relation to the body.


----------



## Kiron (Aug 23, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A technique involves:
> 
> 1. opportunity,
> 2. timing,
> ...



I totally agree with you but you forgot to mention the "Attitude".


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't mind the acrobatics, but to me they belong in an acrobatics competition or a dance competition.



I have two fundamental reasons for not liking the acrobatics in kata and indeed martial arts. the first thing is that I don't think it should be put in to kata where it doesn't belong and secondly I can't do it, not even the splits or a headstand.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Same old thing. Kata sucks, punching air sucks, kumite sucks, point sparring sucks, only real unscripted all out brawling teaches anything. Yawn. Go away, troll.


If that's directed at me I'm very disappointed. 

I love kata and love to watch it done well. I think it's one of the best training tools people have come up with. 

I dislike kata competition. That makes me a troll?

Well if I'm a troll, your fake news.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 23, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Sorry, I just don't think these people are ruining Karate.
> 
> (Kata and weapons forms video starts at 49 second mark.)
> 
> ...



They are indeed dedicated people, some of those guys in the clip looked awesome. They clearly put a lot of work into looking crisp and powerful.

But they've shown me nothing about the arts they practice or whether they can make use of their respective arts. So as performers they have my respect.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Yup.  OP asked what judges are looking for, and it instantly turned into "there shouldn't be kata competition" and "competitive karate gives us all a bad name."
> 
> How about if one doesn't have any insight into the actual question being asked, one should simply not say anything?  Radical concept, for sure.



Well this post I'm quoting would have been a great opportunity to practice what you preach.

You see, I acknowledged my opinion wasn't helpful when I gave it and had no intention to post further unless I was asked. Which I was. By the Thread poster.

Who asked you?


----------



## DaveB (Aug 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Kata competition doesn't cause any of the woes you ascribe to it, so long as good, "live" training methods are also used. People can go and gawk at an engine, and that doesn't make the engine less effective. Even if that gawking occasionally leads the owner to add bits of chrome that aren't really necessary to the effective function of the engine, that won't be a problem, so long as the original purpose of the engine is still fulfilled by proper maintenance, etc.



I see a connection. I believe it's in the mindset created by the existence of kata comps and their acknowledgement as valid.

I can see why others may disagree though.



gpseymour said:


> Oh, and the martial arts as character building - that's actually far more useful in most people's lives than the fighting use. In fact, it often makes the fighting less likely to happen.



Absolutely.

But who are you to build my character? 
Was the Cobra Kai sensei teaching good lessons? 
If I'm a full formed adult, should a dude in funny pyjamas have any sway over my character?
Will persevering in the dojo actually translate into the rest of my life?

In my short life I've encountered two very senior karate teachers who have been put in prison for sexual child abuse, one of whom was to me an obvious psychopath who yet managed to surround himself with an online community of other senior martial artists who bent over backwards to excuse his bullying of anyone who disagreed with him. So please excuse my cynicism.

Understand that I don't take issue with the theory. And when it works I think it works well. I just think it's better ascribed to skilled coaching than martial arts per se.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> If that's directed at me I'm very disappointed.
> 
> I love kata and love to watch it done well. I think it's one of the best training tools people have come up with.
> 
> ...


I always love that attitude. I don't agree with you so you're a troll. No it's called having a different opinion. I'm the same I like kata even now I don't train karate anymore I still practice because it's nice and relaxing going through them and it's a good workout and I always found them fun to learn but I don't like the competition aspect because it makes competitors break their own rules in order to win and I think that's silly. Does that make me a troll? No because I've given a genuine reason if I went on here saying. "Kata sucks screw anyone who thinks different and if you like it your an idiot " that'd be trolling but if you can give reasoning by your statement then that's an opinion not trolling


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I see a connection. I believe it's in the mindset created by the existence of kata comps and their acknowledgement as valid.
> 
> I can see why others may disagree though.
> 
> ...


You are treating the MA as a character builder as an oddity. The same is said (appropriately) of team sports, academic competitions, and a lot of other things. Let's be clear: the experience will shape the participants. We can choose to allow it to be a random influence, or we can choose to do what we can to help people become more of what they are capable of being (character development). I will choose the latter as an instructor, trainer, consultant, and in every other role where I influence others.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2017)

When we say character building though what sort of character do we mean? some sports certainly develop character...look at football ( soccer to the uninitiated) they fall to try to force a penalty ( cheating) they argue with referees even assault them, they are inordinately self important, they are also very 'entitled', many are promiscuous because it's offered on a plate because of their 'fame' and they can be the most whiny people going.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You are treating the MA as a character builder as an oddity. The same is said (appropriately) of team sports, academic competitions, and a lot of other things. Let's be clear: the experience will shape the participants. We can choose to allow it to be a random influence, or we can choose to do what we can to help people become more of what they are capable of being (character development). I will choose the latter as an instructor, trainer, consultant, and in every other role where I influence others.



That's not really what i was writing about.

The conciet that it is dedicated martial arts training that improves character was my subject. Hence... all the stuff I wrote.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> When we say character building though what sort of character do we mean? some sports certainly develop character...look at football ( soccer to the uninitiated) they fall to try to force a penalty ( cheating) they argue with referees even assault them, they are inordinately self important, they are also very 'entitled', many are promiscuous because it's offered on a plate because of their 'fame' and they can be the most whiny people going.


And that's my point. Coaches in those sports have a choice when working with kids. They can allow that to happen - allow them to emulate the pros. Or they can have internal rules on the team to reward better sportsmanship.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> That's not really what i was writing about.
> 
> The conciet that it is dedicated martial arts training that improves character was my subject. Hence... all the stuff I wrote.


I haven't heard anyone express that conceit. I know many who believe MA can be a better vehicle in some ways, but even those folks apparently recognize it's not unique to MA. Dedicated MA training, like any dedicated practice that invests time in long-term skill development, does help build character. But only if it's led well. It could be led poorly (and we don't have to reach for fictitious examples) and build poor character.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> If that's directed at me I'm very disappointed.
> 
> I love kata and love to watch it done well. I think it's one of the best training tools people have come up with.
> 
> ...



No, not directed at you.  At least not entirely.  You're not a troll.  

But it's "you're" not "your."  LOL.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 23, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Someone's triggered. Point fighting does suck.. Ooh look I punched 5 feet away from him give me a point wooo I'm a world champion.



You're entitled to your opinion. However, consider that wasn't the question that was being asked.  Not just you, but several people seem to think the right way to answer the question is to put down the entire concept.

Q: I have a question about judging a kata competition.
A: Tournament kata sucks.

See?  Kinda buttholey, IMHO.  Don't like kata?  Don't like point fighting?  Don't like this or don't like that?  Good to know.  Start a thread about it.


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 23, 2017)

Been tied up, unable to comment here.  Threads gone in several directions... but...

First... Forms, and their purposes.  Let's start by noting that the question was asked in the General Martial Arts forum, and seemed broadly aimed at forms.  I say that because there are different sorts of forms in different styles.  There are forms that are meant to teach particular principles or concepts.  There are forms that encapsulate a system's techniques and principles.  There are forms done purely for esthetics; they're beautiful or athletic, and that's what they're supposed to be.  There are forms that are meant as moving meditations, or spiritual aids.  There are forms that are meant to build strength and physical ability (yeah, a yoga sequence is a sort of form...).  There are partnered forms that record exactly how a technique is supposed to be done and work against someone -- and solo forms done without anyone else.  So...  if you don't like competitive forms, or your system doesn't include them -- cool.  Don't bash people who do or systems that do.  Train your way, and let others train theirs.  I'm not a fan of the XMA stuff -- but I can't knock the athleticism and physicality of the competitors!

Which leads to judging...  There are two broad types of tournaments: closed/style specific, and open/non-restricted.  If I'm judging a closed tournament in my system, I know what those forms are supposed to look like.  I know what the stances are supposed to be, where you can add theatricality or showmanship and where it's hiding poor technique.  And I can tell whether a pause is dramatic or confusion...  So they get graded one way.  I look for proper execution of our principles, proper stances, the proper form, etc.  I know that even though one form may be shorter than another, it's also more intricate or complex while another form is incredibly physically demanding.  But in an open tournament, I don't know the forms.  Across the Japanese Karate (and many of the Okinawan Karate, too), there are a number of fairly common kata, even if they aren't exactly the same from style to style.  But in the various Chinese arts, there can be different forms in the same named art...  And then you get us oddball styles like Bando...  So how do I judge fairly in open tournaments?  I look for balanced footwork, solid stances, clean techniques that show focused targets, and I look for whether or not the performer seems to know the form.  It's usually pretty obvious if they get lost; pauses in weird places or for too long, techniques that just don't connect, etc.  Length and apparent complexity figure in, too -- longer or harder forms are likely to score better in one division than shorter/simpler ones.  Where it gets really hard is when you're trying to score forms that use very different principles against each other -- especially if you don't understand the principles.  Watch a hard style judge try to assess a soft style form -- or vice versa!! -- sometime...  They sometimes just don't connect it...

So... advice to a new judge, in an open tournament?  Do your best to be fair and to be consistent in how you judge.  If you're way off base from the other judges, speak to them about what they're seeing that you're not, good or bad.  Personally, especially for new judges, I like to have 5 judges, and discard high & low scores.  But at least if you're internally consistent with yourself -- *your *scores will be fair for all the competitors.

Advice for a competitor?  Know your form.  Know where you can add dramatic touches, and use those moments to help distinguish yourself.  Understand the rules for a competition; are the judges told to look for strict adherence to the exact form, or is their room for variants?  Have a second go-to form in your back pocket, in case something happens that you get told to do a different one (like a run off between two competitors).  *Never* let the judges know you made a mistake; they'll either already know, or if they don't -- you can fool them.  (I know someone who won a grand championship despite inventing about 1/2 the form because he got lost... but the judges didn't know!)  Afterwards, if you get a chance, thank the judges and ask them politely what you can do to compete better next time.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Well this post I'm quoting would have been a great opportunity to practice what you preach.
> 
> You see, I acknowledged my opinion wasn't helpful when I gave it and had no intention to post further unless I was asked. Which I was. By the Thread poster.
> 
> Who asked you?


I didn't need to be asked.  Just like you.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 23, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Been tied up, unable to comment here.  Threads gone in several directions... but...
> 
> First... Forms, and their purposes.  Let's start by noting that the question was asked in the General Martial Arts forum, and seemed broadly aimed at forms.  I say that because there are different sorts of forms in different styles.  There are forms that are meant to teach particular principles or concepts.  There are forms that encapsulate a system's techniques and principles.  There are forms done purely for esthetics; they're beautiful or athletic, and that's what they're supposed to be.  There are forms that are meant as moving meditations, or spiritual aids.  There are forms that are meant to build strength and physical ability (yeah, a yoga sequence is a sort of form...).  There are partnered forms that record exactly how a technique is supposed to be done and work against someone -- and solo forms done without anyone else.  So...  if you don't like competitive forms, or your system doesn't include them -- cool.  Don't bash people who do or systems that do.  Train your way, and let others train theirs.  I'm not a fan of the XMA stuff -- but I can't knock the athleticism and physicality of the competitors!
> 
> ...


Regarding the guy who made up half of the kata and still won...

I was told it was a rule in some open tournaments that "mistakes" must be ignored by the judges.  The judges must assume that you're doing the kata correctly by your organization's standards.

For example...
About 20 years ago, people from my dojo were preparing for a tournament.  We did a mock tournament where judged each other just like it was going to be done at the tournament.  A friend of my sensei's came in to help us out.  He previously served as a judge and judging coordinator in the tournament.

One student did Pinan 1, but did punches going up the middle instead of high blocks.  The my sensei's friend said "We all know he did it wrong.  But he kept going as if it was how he was taught it.  Different organizations do things differently, and in an open tournament, you have to assume he's doing it correctly according to his organization.  You have to score his performance, not what you think are the right or wrong way movements in the kata."

The tournament you're referring to most likely had the same policy.  After all, when I competed in weapons, I saw the bo kata Shushi No Kon performed 3 completely different ways.  They weren't variations, they looked like entirely different kata.  Which one was the right way?  I've since seen videos of all three versions of that kata (the tournament was quite a long time before YouTube).


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Regarding the guy who made up half of the kata and still won...
> 
> I was told it was a rule in some open tournaments that "mistakes" must be ignored by the judges.  The judges must assume that you're doing the kata correctly by your organization's standards.
> 
> .



Much simpler.  The judges didn't know the form, so since he didn't stop and didn't advertise his error...  they didn't have a clue.

But your senior judges comment further in is the heart of it.  If you don't stop,  judges will often assume a coherent error, to coin a term, is simply how you were taught.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> One student did Pinan 1, but did punches going up the middle instead of high blocks.



Which styles' 'Pinan1' ? Pinan Nidan is often used as the first kata but Pinan Shodan is actually the first. Just saying because it highlights the problem when you have so many different styles doing kata against each other in a competition.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Which styles' 'Pinan1' ? Pinan Nidan is often used as the first kata but Pinan Shodan is actually the first. Just saying because it highlights the problem when you have so many different styles doing kata against each other in a competition.


Kyokushin.






I've never seen any school not do high blocks/jodan uke on the way up.

In an open tournament/a tournament that has more than one karate organization competing, the judges should assume the student is doing the moves they were taught by their organization.  If the student obviously corrects a mistake or shows they've made a mistake, penalize them for it; if they're moving along as though they're doing the right thing, don't penalize them.

Case in point - a judge shouldn't penalize the shuto mawashi stow uke done at the end of that kata because they think the competitor did it wrong/never saw it done that way; that's exactly how Kyokushin and offshoots are taught it, even though pretty much everyone else does it another way.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

Pinan Nidan from Wado Ryu


----------



## Buka (Aug 24, 2017)

DaveB said:


> But who are you to build my character?
> Was the Cobra Kai sensei teaching good lessons?
> If I'm a full formed adult, should a dude in funny pyjamas have any sway over my character?
> Will persevering in the dojo actually translate into the rest of my life?
> ...



But who are you to build my character?

*Me, personally? I'm nobody. Me as your Martial Instructor, that would have been a different story completely.*

Was the Cobra Kai sensei teaching good lessons?

*The character in the movie? You know he wasn't. But the other character in the movie, the lead, that Miyagi guy, he kinda' was.*

If I'm a full formed adult, should a dude in funny pyjamas have any sway over my character?
_
*I don't know. I never took lessons from a guy in pjs*._

Will persevering in the dojo actually translate into the rest of my life?
*
Depends on the dojo, how long you train and what you put into it. Would have in mine. But then you wouldn't have had any other choice.*

In my short life I've encountered two very senior karate teachers who have been put in prison for sexual child abuse, one of whom was to me an obvious psychopath who yet managed to surround himself with an online community of other senior martial artists who bent over backwards to excuse his bullying of anyone who disagreed with him. So please excuse my cynicism.

_*In my long life I've met far more bad guys than you have, both in gis and in the streets. But I completely excuse your cynicism. *_

Understand that I don't take issue with the theory. And when it works I think it works well. I just think it's better ascribed to skilled coaching than martial arts per se.

*Yes, it does work well. To me, skilled coaching and teaching good Martial Arts is one and the same. I've helped a lot of people develop their character over the years. And please note I said I've helped "them" develop "their" character. I did not develop it for them. I don't think that can be done.
As an aside - I really enjoy your posts. Hope you continue here for a long time. [even if you train with guys in pajamas]*


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Which styles' 'Pinan1' ? Pinan Nidan is often used as the first kata but Pinan Shodan is actually the first. Just saying because it highlights the problem when you have so many different styles doing kata against each other in a competition.







Sorry; somehow the link didn't appear in my previous post.

Looks different than yours.  And both look different than Shotokan.  Which is right?  If you have a judge from Kyokushin, Wado Ryu, and Shotokan, each way will get 2 low scores due to errors, and one high score.  Unless of course you assume that the competitor did the kata as taught to him/her.  Then the scoring should be consistent, regardless of the judges' backgrounds.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2017)

Just wonder if a Karate Kata and a Kung Fu form can be judged any different. If you are a Karate judge, when you see this Kung Fu form competed in a Karate tournament, what grade will you give to him?


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just wonder if a Karate Kata and a Kung Fu form can be judged any different. If you are a Karate judge, when you see this Kung Fu form competed in a Karate tournament, what grade will you give to him?



I don't and wouldn't judge any other styles kata. I've judged only Wado and they are as taught, no variations and no add ons.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I don't and wouldn't judge any other styles kata. I've judged only Wado and they are as taught, no variations and no add ons.


This remind me one time I was judging a Baji form division in a Dallas Kung Fu tournament. Every judges give a guy very high score but I gave him 0 score. All judges asked me why and I told them this guy used a long fist form to compete in a Baji form division and no judges even noticed.

This raise an interested question. What will you do if a Karate guy does his Karate Kata in slow speed and compete in a Taiji form division?

Can you judge a MA style that you know nothing about it?


----------



## DaveB (Aug 24, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This remind me one time I was judging a Baji form division in a Dallas Kung Fu tournament. Every judges give a guy very high score but I gave him 0 score. All judges asked me why and I told them this guy used a long fist form to compete in a Baji form division and no judges even noticed.
> 
> This raise an interested question. What will you do if a Karate guy does his Karate Kata in slow speed and compete in a Taiji form division?



The whole premise is nonsensical. How can people judge forms they have no knowledge of? If I don't do your style i cannot judge anything that matters about a form.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This remind me one time I was judging a Baji form division in a Dallas Kung Fu tournament. Every judges give a guy very high score but I gave him 0 score. All judges asked me why and I told them this guy used a long fist form to compete in a Baji form division and no judges even noticed.
> 
> This raise an interested question. What will you do if a Karate guy does his Karate Kata in slow speed and compete in a Taiji form division?
> 
> Can you judge a MA style that you know nothing about it?


I _can_ judge one - I'm not sure if that answers whether I _should_ be judging one. If three of us with very different backgounds (Kung Fu, Karate, Aikido) judge forms, what would we judge them on? If we judge on the criteria others have specified here (balance, proper pausing choices, confidence, focus and inten), it seems likely we'll still make some errors, as some movements in Kung Fu may look weak to me, because I don't know their purpose - and probably the reverse is true. Some of the Karate movements may look over-powered to me, and some from Aikido mine may look unfocused to them.

(Note: So far as I know, there aren't any common long-form kata in Aikido, so this is hypothetical.)


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 25, 2017)

In an open tournament, what matters is that you stay consistent throughout.

You accept the competitors version of the kata and you make the deductions based on your observation and opinions of the competitions technique, stances, speed, power, tempo, intensity, etc....

If all the judges stay consistent with their scoring everything is fair.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> some movements in Kung Fu may look weak to me, because I don't know their purpose...


One of my friends had won the 1st place in Karate form competition many times. He always started with a soft and slow Taiji form. When all the judges were bored to death, he suddenly jumped into the air, did double jumping kick with fast speed and powerful punch until he finished the form.


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## Buka (Aug 25, 2017)

DaveB said:


> The whole premise is nonsensical. How can people judge forms they have no knowledge of? If I don't do your style i cannot judge anything that matters about a form.



Yet, I did it for twenty years. And I don't even do forms. I did because I was asked, both by the tournament promoters and the competitors. Mainly because I don't do favorites - and have no preconceived, perhaps subconscious, notion of comparing your forms to mine.


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## Tez3 (Aug 25, 2017)

Just as a matter of interest anyone done the Judo katas? My instructor did them for us a while back ( he's an old Judoka) they are interesting, impossible for me when it includes 'kneewalking' ( is there a Japanese name for that? I assume so)


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## DaveB (Aug 25, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One of my friends had won the 1st place in Karate form competition many times. He always started with a soft and slow Taiji form. When all the judges were bored to death, he suddenly jumped into the air, did double jumping kick with fast speed and powerful punch until he finished the form.


So he was making the form up?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2017)

DaveB said:


> So he was making the form up?


He connected part of the Taiji form and part of the long fist form into one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Just as a matter of interest anyone done the Judo katas? My instructor did them for us a while back ( he's an old Judoka) they are interesting, impossible for me when it includes 'kneewalking' ( is there a Japanese name for that? I assume so)


The term I learned for that is shikkoo. If it is with techniques it became suwari waza. I don't know if those are the terms used in Judo, though. I used to be quite good at knee-walking movement (as used in NGA), but my big toes are too arthritic for me to do more than a brief demonstration for students (and I pay for that for a few days).

I never even saw the Judo kata in my days in Judo. I don't think my instructor ever used them.


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I never even saw the Judo kata in my days in Judo. I don't think my instructor ever used them.



I don't know how common they are, he always said he did 'old style' Judo ie before the Olympic stuff took over. This is some of what he showed us, with him talking us through the part of the other person, there's different sorts of kata, one set with throws and one set with weapons and other self defence techniques.


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2017)

judo kata - Bing video


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2017)

DaveB said:


> The whole premise is nonsensical. How can people judge forms they have no knowledge of? If I don't do your style i cannot judge anything that matters about a form.


Agreed Its ridiculous so basically If I wanted to I could turn up to a shotokan tournament and enter as a black belt (even though I've never trained it) and just throw my hands around and pretend to know what I'm doing and I could get a gold medal....how's that fair in any way.


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## DaveB (Aug 26, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> In an open tournament, what matters is that you stay consistent throughout.
> 
> You accept the competitors version of the kata and you make the deductions based on your observation and opinions of the competitions technique, stances, speed, power, tempo, intensity, etc....
> 
> If all the judges stay consistent with their scoring everything is fair.



But if you don't know anything about the form you are looking at then you cannot judge it on anything that is actually relevant to the form and the training that surrounds it.

So then your standards are arbitrary to the art and anyone who wanted to win will have had to play up those arbitrary qualities that may or may not be relevant to it.

So if you are doing patterns that may not be correct and using performance standards that are not related to the form, how is it not just a dance?


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed Its ridiculous so basically If I wanted to I could turn up to a shotokan tournament and enter as a black belt (even though I've never trained it) and just throw my hands around and pretend to know what I'm doing and I could get a gold medal....how's that fair in any way.



You couldn't do that at a one style tournament though, all the judges would be Shotokan dan grades and the katas would *all *be Shotokan so they'd know immediately that you weren't doing it correctly. The problem is the open competitions where multiple styles compete against each other with judges not knowing whether they are correct or not.


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## JR 137 (Aug 26, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed Its ridiculous so basically If I wanted to I could turn up to a shotokan tournament and enter as a black belt (even though I've never trained it) and just throw my hands around and pretend to know what I'm doing and I could get a gold medal....how's that fair in any way.


1. What Tez said.
2. The judges have a pretty good idea what TRADITIONAL forms look like.  With probably very few exceptions, people judging forms have judged them before and do forms themselves.
3. A judge with any experience and/or MAist could pick out a pretender.
4. I don't any any experience with truly "open" tournaments where you have multiple styles such as karate, Kung Fu, TKD, etc. compete.  My experience is with open karate tournaments where competitors are limited to traditional kata.  Even if a judge doesn't do that particular kata, he/she has most likely seen it before.  Unsu is typically a Shotokan kata.  Kyokushin, Isshin Ryu, and many others don't do it.  But judges with those backgrounds have most likely seen it several times.  I'm not a judge, I've never learned it, yet I know what's supposed to be done.  Same for a lot of other kata.
5. Test your theory out 

I know text on a screen doesn't convey emotion properly quite often; there's no emotion in my post, just ideas.


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## jks9199 (Aug 26, 2017)

DaveB said:


> But if you don't know anything about the form you are looking at then you cannot judge it on anything that is actually relevant to the form and the training that surrounds it.
> 
> So then your standards are arbitrary to the art and anyone who wanted to win will have had to play up those arbitrary qualities that may or may not be relevant to it.
> 
> So if you are doing patterns that may not be correct and using performance standards that are not related to the form, how is it not just a dance?


There are fairly common principles that underlay effective movements.  Balance, use of the entire body to generate power, a kind of "physical logic", etc.  Those are things you can look for.  You can also assess whether someone knows a form or not; weird pauses in places that don't make sense, restarts...  Yes, you can be "fooled" by someone who doesn't stop and rolls through an error.  Or wowed by a great performer doing a subpar form.  But, y'know... it's a competition based in notable part on esthetics.  That's kind of the point, isn't it?


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## DaveB (Aug 26, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> There are fairly common principles that underlay effective movements.  Balance, use of the entire body to generate power, a kind of "physical logic", etc.  Those are things you can look for.  You can also assess whether someone knows a form or not; weird pauses in places that don't make sense, restarts...  Yes, you can be "fooled" by someone who doesn't stop and rolls through an error.  Or wowed by a great performer doing a subpar form.  But, y'know... it's a competition based in notable part on esthetics.  That's kind of the point, isn't it?




Indeed it is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know how common they are, he always said he did 'old style' Judo ie before the Olympic stuff took over. This is some of what he showed us, with him talking us through the part of the other person, there's different sorts of kata, one set with throws and one set with weapons and other self defence techniques.


Interesting. I'd heard reference to these before, but never realized how very stylized they were.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed Its ridiculous so basically If I wanted to I could turn up to a shotokan tournament and enter as a black belt (even though I've never trained it) and just throw my hands around and pretend to know what I'm doing and I could get a gold medal....how's that fair in any way.


If you showed up at a Shotokan tournament, they'd expect to see something that looks much like the Shotokan kata. And there would be principles (as others have pretty clearly pointed out) that would be judged, even in an open competition. So, just throwing your hands around would get nothing. Now, if you assembled an interesting new kata, there's no reason that couldn't win in a competition, so long as you are doing it well, and it feels cohesive.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You couldn't do that at a one style tournament though, all the judges would be Shotokan dan grades and the katas would *all *be Shotokan so they'd know immediately that you weren't doing it correctly. The problem is the open competitions where multiple styles compete against each other with judges not knowing whether they are correct or not.


Even at the open competitions, it shouldn't be a problem (assuming reasonably similar approaches among the competing styles). Whether a kata is centuries old or brand new shouldn't be relevant in that competition, so if someone makes one up, and it's a good kata, and they perform it well (focus, intent, power, balance, etc.), then it's competing on even footing, as it should be.


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Even at the open competitions, it shouldn't be a problem (assuming reasonably similar approaches among the competing styles). Whether a kata is centuries old or brand new shouldn't be relevant in that competition, so if someone makes one up, and it's a good kata, and they perform it well (focus, intent, power, balance, etc.), then it's competing on even footing, as it should be.



He specifically mentioned a Shotokan tournament though which is why I posted as I did. You wouldn't be able to bluff your way through a single style competition.


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## JR 137 (Aug 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If you showed up at a Shotokan tournament, they'd expect to see something that looks much like the Shotokan kata. And there would be principles (as others have pretty clearly pointed out) that would be judged, even in an open competition. So, just throwing your hands around would get nothing. Now, if you assembled an interesting new kata, there's no reason that couldn't win in a competition, so long as you are doing it well, and it feels cohesive.


If you showed up at a Shotokan tournament, in pretty much every instance you'd have to perform a Shotokan approved kata.  They'd be very little variation allowed; those variations would be different Shotokan schools' variations and not personal variations.

In a nutshell, if it's not on a Shotokan syllabus, it's not allowed.  Unless of course there was a "create your own kata" division.  I don't see that happening too often in a Shotokan tournament though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 27, 2017)

DaveB said:


> How can people judge forms they have no knowledge of? If I don't do your style i cannot judge anything that matters about a form.


In Kung Fu tournament, it usually separates

- internal style,
- external style.

In external style, it also separates

- northern style,
- southern style.

In the northern style, it includes:

- long fist,
- preying mantis,
- Baji,
- Pi Gua,
- Lou Han,
- ...

To find one Kung Fu northern style judge who knows all northern styles is impossible.


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## MA_Student (Aug 28, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Forms are for training and study.
> 
> You don't judge a javelin thrower by how nicely they lift weights, you don't go to a football game to watch the players do jumping jacks.
> 
> ...


Yep I competed in forms for a while never got far. Even though my forms are at a good level the guys I was against were doing backflips and jackie chan type stunts whereas I did normal forms how I'd been taught them


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