# Board breaking



## RTKDCMB (Feb 2, 2013)

Here is an article I wrote on board breaking, how it works and why it is  done I hope it gives people some insight on why some arts place any  importance on it.

Board breaking is common in the martial arts; the most commonly used  material is pine. This material is selected because it has approximately  the same tensile strength as human rib bone. Bones such as the femur  and the humerus are many times stronger than the rib bone however.  Boards are always broken along their weakest point which is with the  grain. Boards never break across the grain because in that direction  they are 5 times stronger, roughly the tensile strength of concrete.  Boards, like concrete, are much more resistant to compression than they  are in tension which is why they always break from the back of the  board. Sometimes to save money boards will be glued back together, this  however does not make the board easier to break but does in fact make it  harder to break. This is because boards that have been glued together  properly almost never break where they are glued and thus have to break  at their second weakest point.

Some martial artists dispute the need for board breaking but others  realize its importance. Breaking boards serves to improve confidence,  demonstrate power, speed and/or accuracy. But the primary reason to  break boards is to develop technique. Being able to break one board does  not necessarily mean that you can break a rib it is more like if you  cant break a board then being able to break a rib is much less likely.  Often when people, particularly children, fail to break a board with a  certain kick they can often break it after they have worked on their  technique. Once when I was assisting another instructor there was this  child who failed to break with a flying side kick after 6 or 7 attempts.  I was asked to work with him one on one on his technique. After 10  minutes helping him with his kick he got to try again and broke the  board on his first attempt.

When breaking multiple boards there are 2 basic approaches in the way  they are stacked; using spacers or not using spacers. When boards break  tension is applied to the back side of the board until the magnitude of  the tension exceeds the tensile strength of the board and a crack is  formed. The crack will then propagate to either end and towards the  front of the board. When the crack reaches the ends of the board and all  the way to the front the board breaks. It takes twice as much energy  for a crack to propagate in 2 directions than it does in 1 so when  performing a knife hand strike, for example, it is better to aim over to  one side so that the majority of the energy only needs to travel one  way.

*Using spacers*
Spacers are often used when breaking multiple boards to make the break  more visually impressive to potential students or so that practitioners  can break a larger number of boards. When 2 or more boards have spacers  between them then each board can flex freely and break individually in  sequence, to do this the momentum of the strike must be maintained over a  long distance, this is not the correct way to apply force with a strike  for a martial art. The important physical quantity for breaking boards  is Impulse (J). This is the product of force (F) times the time taken  (delta t).

J = F x (delta t)

This means that for a given magnitude of impulse less force is required  if it is applied for a longer period instead of a shorter one. It has  been calculated, by whom I do not know, that for each spaced board that  is added to the stack makes the whole stack 90% more difficult to break  due to the momentum of the boards above being transferred to the board  below. In other words 2 boards are require 190% of the force required to  break 1 board, 3 boards require 280%. What limits the amount of boards  that can be broken is the momentum that is lost after hitting each  board. The amount of power required to break each additional board is  additive.

*Not using spacers*
Breaking stacks of boards that are unspaced is considerably more  difficult because the amount of power required to break each additional  board increases exponentially. It is a common belief that each  additional board increases the amount of power required by a factor of  10. In other words 3 boards are 10 times harder to break than 2 and 100  times harder than 1. This is because each board below supports each of  the boards above. Because each board breaks at the bottom first the  force must be transmitted through the entire stack before any of the  boards will break. All of the boards in the stack must break in sequence  from the bottom up which would be similar to breaking one board that is  a thick as the entire stack, except for the wood fibers between the  individual boards that arent connected. This happens over a smaller  distance than if the boards were spaced and thus at a faster rate and if  the amount of impulse was the same as in the case of the spaced boards  breaking the stack would require a much greater force. The amount of  power required to break each additional board is multiplicative.

*Speed breaks*
These are where boards are held in the fingertips or thrown in the air  before breaking. This can only occur when the force is applied over the  smallest amount of time and hence the term speed break. The force on the  board must exceed its tensile strength before the board can overcome  its own inertia. If it does not then the board will just fly off without  breaking.

*Hand held versus using holders
*In some cases boards will be held in human hands and in others in  board holders, for downward strikes towards the floor, boards are almost  exclusively held with board holders. It is more difficult to break  boards held by human holders than by using board holders. This is  because human beings always have some natural give in them while the  board holders are more rigid. This means that for board holders only a  small fraction of the force is absorbed by the rigid structure allowing  more force to be available to break the boards. The use of board holders  is good if there are you are on your own but it is more of a challenge  to break with people holding the boards. It is difficult for human  holders to hold 3 boards by themselves and any technique with the power  to break 3 unspaced boards puts a large amount of stress on the wrists  of the holders so they must be supported by other people holding the  wrists. Holding 4 or more boards is next to impossible unless the  holders have giant hands.
Breaking boards is a worthwhile endeavor so long as it is used for the  right reasons such as developing technique and demonstrating the art.  Board breaking for its own sake is counterproductive however as it takes  time away that could be better spent elsewhere.

Talk amongst yourselves.


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## WC_lun (Feb 2, 2013)

Board breaking is like many of the kung fu tricks.  Awsome for show, very little to do with true martial ability.  I do think it is great for the confidence of beginners though.


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## frank raud (Feb 5, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Here is an article I wrote on board breaking, how it works and why it is  done I hope it gives people some insight on why some arts place any  importance on it.
> 
> Board breaking is common in the martial arts; the most commonly used  material is pine. This material is selected because it has approximately  the same tensile strength as human rib bone. Bones such as the femur  and the humerus are many times stronger than the rib bone however.  Boards are always broken along their weakest point which is with the  grain. Boards never break across the grain because in that direction  they are 5 times stronger, roughly the tensile strength of concrete.  *Tensile strength of concrete is about 10% of its compression strength, seems to be about 300 psi, similar to the tensile strength of Eastern White Pine, at 305 PSI. That's with the grain, not across.*.
> 
> ...



Real curious about some of your "facts" and figures. Good thing the "calculations" were done by "I don't know who."


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 6, 2013)

Pine is often selected because it is soft and cheap, not because it most closely resembles "human rib bones". Tameshiwara is a decent exercise to get people to believe they can actually cause damage with their strikes. Other than some mild confidence boosting, it doesn't have much value as a training tool IMO.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 6, 2013)

But it's FUN....


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## Cyriacus (Feb 6, 2013)

Board breaking is a demonstration of accuracy. Thats it, really.


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## jthomas1600 (Feb 6, 2013)

I still remember my first board breaking experience. I was 25 or 26 and taking Karate. The break was a side kick. I did my initial measuring kick (what ever you want to call it) where I just sort of slowly and mechanically executed the kick only with the intention of placing my foot on the board. It was about quarter speed with no power. I was about an inch too close and the board snapped on impact. I remember thinking "now I know what's up with this". 

On another note, I see one more practical benefit to board breaking. My kids have done TKD and on some of the spinning kicks they just sort of spin with their foot flying around on the end of their leg and it's all good when they're hitting pads, but when they're hitting boards it hurts if they smack their ankle bone or the Achilles on the edge of the board and they are forced to focus more on the point of contact, correct form, etc.


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## WaterGal (Feb 6, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Pine is often selected because it is soft and cheap, not because it most closely resembles "human rib bones". Tameshiwara is a decent exercise to get people to believe they can actually cause damage with their strikes. Other than some mild confidence boosting, it doesn't have much value as a training tool IMO.



Hahahha.  I agree that's probably why pine breaking boards are _traditional_, but I think usually they're chosen because that's what you can buy pre-made from martial arts suppliers. :wink1:  I guess I could go to Home Depot and get them to cut down some oak boards for me, but why?

I do think they have value as a training, though, beyond confidence-building.  I doubt that breaking a board necessarily means that you can break a bone, but if you can't break a board then you _definitely _aren't going to be able to hurt anybody.  Breaking a board shows that your strike is accurate, has decent form and is at least moderately forceful; if you half-*** it or are sloppy the board will just hurt you. (I'm assuming we're talking about 1" boards here - the 1/3" ones are practically balsa wood and are only good for speed breaks or small children.) 

Also, like Dirty Dog says, it's fun and exciting. People should have fun and be excited about training.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 6, 2013)

jthomas1600 said:


> On another note, I see one more practical benefit to board breaking. My kids have done TKD and on some of the spinning kicks they just sort of spin with their foot flying around on the end of their leg and it's all good when they're hitting pads, but when they're hitting boards it hurts if they smack their ankle bone or the Achilles on the edge of the board and they are forced to focus more on the point of contact, correct form, etc.



Except that smacking your achilles tendon in can seriously injure you for a very long time. Thats not a lesson you want to learn in the first place.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 7, 2013)

*Tensile strength of concrete is about 10% of its  compression strength, seems to be about 300 psi, similar to the tensile  strength of Eastern White Pine, at 305 PSI. That's with the grain, not  across.*

According to a material science textbook the strength of a pine board with the grain is about 18MPa (Megapascals), concrete is about 25MPa and a pine board across the grain is about 80MPa.

*As energy is being transferred from the point of  impact to the board, can you explain why it takes twice as much energy  for a crack to develop in 2 directions? *

I'm a little rusty on crack propagation, as far as I remember most of the energy in a crack is present at the tip of the crack, 2 crack tips means twice as much energy although the total energy required to break the board is the same. The 2 crack tips must push the board apart and create new surface areas and increase the surface energy.

*f each stacked board makes the stack 90% more  difficult, then only 10% of the original momentum is transmitted to the  second board. Might want to check your math. Most people are taught to  strike beyond the board(or boards). *

Only 10% of the original momentum would remain if you only had enough to break 2 boards and no more. You do not use all of your momentum up when breaking boards, 2 boards being 90% more difficult means, for example (just a rough guess), if 1 board requires 1 Newton of force, 2 boards would require 1.9 Newtons with spacers and 10 Newtons without spacers. If you hit with 8 Newtons you would break the spaced boards but not the unspaced boards. If you hit with 30 Newtons you would break either stack easily.

I could find out who exactly performed the calculations you mentioned if only I had the time.


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## frank raud (Feb 7, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> *Tensile strength of concrete is about 10% of its  compression strength, seems to be about 300 psi, similar to the tensile  strength of Eastern White Pine, at 305 PSI. That's with the grain, not  across.*
> 
> According to a material science textbook the strength of a pine board with the grain is about 18MPa (Megapascals), concrete is about 25MPa and a pine board across the grain is about 80MPa.
> 
> ...



*In your original premise, the amount of boards was irrelevant, as you stated each additional board adding 90% to the difficulty of breaking the stack. As you phrased it, each board makes it 90% more difficult to break a stack, if using spacers. Am I misquoting you? Have you considered that if you hit with 8 newtons of energy, and a board only requires 1 newton of energy to break, that your statement that a second board makes the stack 90% more difficult is incorrect? If you hit with 8 newtons, and the board requires 1 newton to break, does that not mean your second board will be struck with 7.1 newtons? Math can be your friend.


Who performed the calculations is not as revelant as what they actually mean. By the way, you have the time, this thread will not disappear any time soon.*


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 10, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Hahahha.  I agree that's probably why pine breaking boards are _traditional_, but I think usually they're chosen because that's what you can buy pre-made from martial arts suppliers. :wink1:  I guess I could go to Home Depot and get them to cut down some oak boards for me, but why?



Actually, when I did board breaking in the past, I _did_ go out to Lowes' to buy lumber and basically cut it down to what I wanted. It was always a spur of the moment thing for me, and I didn't want to wait for delivery. Ha! I forgot people by them from MA suppliers!


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 10, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Actually, when I did board breaking in the past, I _did_ go out to Lowes' to buy lumber and basically cut it down to what I wanted. It was always a spur of the moment thing for me, and I didn't want to wait for delivery. Ha! I forgot people by them from MA suppliers!



That's all we ever do. I will say that the boards I've seen purchased from MA places are much easier to break than the ones we buy at Loews and cut down.


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## Balrog (May 13, 2013)

Board breaking is nice and sure looks flashy at demos.  But let's not lose sight of the fact that first and foremost, it's a teaching tool.
By breaking boards, the student is working on timing, distancing, focus and most importantly, confidence.  The student has to have good technique to accomplish the break; Mr. Board  :s118:   will very quickly point out bad technique.  

We have a saying:  it never hurts to break a board.  It only hurts if you don't break the board.


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## RTKDCMB (May 14, 2013)

Balrog said:


> Board breaking is nice and sure looks flashy at demos.  But let's not lose sight of the fact that first and foremost, it's a teaching tool.
> By breaking boards, the student is working on timing, distancing, focus and most importantly, confidence.  The student has to have good technique to accomplish the break; Mr. Board  :s118:   will very quickly point out bad technique.
> 
> We have a saying:  it never hurts to break a board.  It only hurts if you don't break the board.



Mr Board is a great teacher.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2013)

Board breaking was originally a means of demonstrating one's dilligence with the makiwara.  Very few dojos in the states incorporate makiwara training into their curriculum.

I have heard (and on occasion proferred) the arguments for accuracy and technique, and while I agree with them, I also feel that there are better ways to both develop and test a student's technique.  In the beginning, it can be a huge confidence builder, and of course it makes a great demonstration tool.  As Dirty Dog said, it's fun.

I have no position on it one way or the other, aside from that if you're going to incorporate board breaking into tests, use full sized boards for the grown ups.


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## Argus (May 14, 2013)

I always wondered if board breaking, in some instances, encouraged bad practices. 

For example, downward strikes. Now, I don't know how power is generated in most forms of Karate, but in my art, it's important that the "ground" is behind our strike; the elbow is underneath the fist, the body and stance is underneath the elbow, and the ground is underneath the body. However, if you're breaking something by striking down, aren't you using only your upper body strength, and getting absolutely no help from the stance and the ground?

As I said, most forms of Karate are probably different, but even in Karate, I'm sure that engaging your lower body when striking is important, is it not?


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## RTKDCMB (May 14, 2013)

Argus said:


> However, if you're breaking something by striking down, aren't you using only your upper body strength, and getting absolutely no help from the stance and the ground?



Depends on whether you are striking from a standing or kneeling position.


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## Cirdan (May 15, 2013)

Never done any board breaking, nor do I see the need.
However to each his/her own.


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## RTKDCMB (May 15, 2013)

Cirdan said:


> Never done any board breaking, nor do I see the need.
> However to each his/her own.


But then how will you defend yourself when attacked by a tree?


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## Cirdan (May 15, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> But then how will you defend yourself when attacked by a tree?



All trees are my friends because I did not break any boards


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## Argus (May 15, 2013)

I enjoy wood working. I guess I had better be careful!


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## Cirdan (May 15, 2013)

Argus said:


> I enjoy wood working. I guess I had better be careful!


Better look out for this guy...


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## rframe (May 15, 2013)

Broke a few boards in a style I studied many years ago.  Never understood the point other than the "oh wow, he broke a board!" factor for some kids at a demo.

To each his own, do what you enjoy and all that... but reading the justification logic posted above my BS meter is pretty high.

I dont think it teaches people anything other than the fact that boards are easy to break.


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## david7510 (Dec 19, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> But then how will you defend yourself when attacked by a tree?



Well that was kinda funny but let me put things to every one like this. If I can break 6, 7, 8 boards with out spacers and 8, 9 or 10 with spacers and my opponent who has been "practicing" an art for 10, 20 30 years can not, but is full of false self-confidence, I would have to say that I would be able to inflict more damage then he/she would be able to inflict on me. I know the extent of my power and the damage I can do. Another point, I have some of my students who are extremely fast and have been practicing one or more arts for years come at me as fast as they can with a hail of strikes what ever they want and I defend one handed. Now again if my opponent never attempts any thing like this then again I would have to think I would have the upper hand.

I have seen high level black belts get destroyed by lower ranked color belts or on the streets by people that know nothing of the martial arts.

My point, you should try to develop your skills in every area you possibly can. Oh and when I break I do not use the 12"x6"x1" ( I could probably do 15 of those right now) I use the 12"x12"x1" and we buy them at lowes 6' long and cut them ourselves.

Another point to consider, I do not know how many boards would equal a rib but I think you would also have to consider that the boards are supported by concrete block and don't have a lot of room to move where as the human body can move a lot when hit so being able to strike not the target but through the target is a concept that each student should learn. 

Oh just realized that it shows me as a white belt, not a white belt. I have 3 different black belts of different degrees in 3 arts and own my own school. White belt, now that's funny I don't care who you are, as Larry the cable guy would say.


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## wab25 (Dec 19, 2017)

david7510 said:


> Well that was kinda funny but let me put things to every one like this. If I can break 6, 7, 8 boards with out spacers and 8, 9 or 10 with spacers and my opponent who has been "practicing" an art for 10, 20 30 years can not, but is full of false self-confidence, I would have to say that I would be able to inflict more damage then he/she would be able to inflict on me.


 Sure... if your opponent stays still, allows you to measure your strike and position him correctly and then stays still some more, waiting for the impact. If he decides to move however, and defend himself... he may be able to sting you like a bee while he flutters around... who knows... who is your opponent?

I might think that someone who spends his time learning to break 10 boards with one strike may be the one full of false confidence. Breaking static, un-moving, non defending boards that do not punch back is very different than breaking a person who is intent on doing you harm.

Then again, I have never broken a board... so what do I know?


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## david7510 (Dec 19, 2017)

wab25 said:


> Sure... if your opponent stays still, allows you to measure your strike and position him correctly and then stays still some more, waiting for the impact. If he decides to move however, and defend himself... he may be able to sting you like a bee while he flutters around... who knows... who is your opponent?
> 
> I might think that someone who spends his time learning to break 10 boards with one strike may be the one full of false confidence. Breaking static, un-moving, non defending boards that do not punch back is very different than breaking a person who is intent on doing you harm.
> 
> Then again, I have never broken a board... so what do I know?



Well did you not read where I talked about the body moving, did you not understand the point I made about going through your target/opponent. I am very much aware of the other person moving. A little bit of my background. Competed in about 50 tournaments and took state champ in 3 categories one of which was  sparring, so I kinda doubt that my level of self confidence is false, but having said that I never just assume I can take any one out instead I look at my opponent as at least as good if not better then me so that I do not get stupid. But thank you for trying to enlighten me I do sincerely appreciate it. 

Let me try and put it another way, practice punching or kicking air only or practicing going through a static object you decide what would be better and as far as sparring goes how many out there hit your partner as hard and as fast and going through  doing as much damage as you can. I don't know I have not gone to every school and seen every student spar but I would tend to think the answer is zero. 

And please do not try and insult me or any one else just because they have a different opinion then you. I did not mean to insult any one just tried to express my point of view with out writing a book. Just give some food for thought.


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## wab25 (Dec 19, 2017)

First, no offense was intended... Sorry, if you were offended. 



david7510 said:


> Well did you not read where I talked about the body moving, did you not understand the point I made about going through your target/opponent.


I should have been more specific. If the opponent is using angles or slipping your punches... then punching through the target won't help. If the target moved off the line, in such a way that you cannot track it... then it will not matter if you punch to the target or through the target.



david7510 said:


> Let me try and put it another way, practice punching or kicking air only or practicing going through a static object you decide what would be better and as far as sparring goes


As far as sparring goes, work on a heavy bag would be better prep for sparring than breaking boards. There are lots of ways to train striking, besides breaking boards. Some of them (heavy bag and pad work with a partner) are much better prep for sparring or a live opponent than board breaking. (boxers find shadow boxing to be effective when used correctly...)

Further, the ability to break boards, has very little to do with sparring or fighting a live opponent. (If point sparring... even less) I have not broken boards yet. So, I am not yet sure what that brings to the table. I am sure though, that breaking boards is not the best way to train for sparring or for a live opponent. At some point, I may break a few boards, if that is called for in my training. (training shotokan now so I am sure it will) Once I break a few, if I can figure out what it does bring... I will be sure to come back and post.


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## david7510 (Dec 19, 2017)

wab25 said:


> First, no offense was intended... Sorry, if you were offended.
> 
> I should have been more specific. If the opponent is using angles or slipping your punches... then punching through the target won't help. If the target moved off the line, in such a way that you cannot track it... then it will not matter if you punch to the target or through the target.
> 
> ...



Well I wish well in your training, unfortunately you just don't seem to be able to grasp what I have said. I never said breaking was any form of training for fighting. I am not sure where you even came up with that, but at least this time you did not directly try to insult me just indirectly. I have fought many matches like I said earlier and I also understand the heavy bag and shadow boxing. But since you brought up boxing it should be noted that boxers do actually get out in the ring and go fairly hard at it against each other in practicing for fights which also helps tremendously with staminia where as most martial arts practitioners do not, which is a shame and most train for competition. But this is my last post on the subject, I am not one for beating my head against the wall. Sorry I could not put it in plain enough language for you to be able to understand what I said.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2017)

david7510 said:


> Another point to consider, I do not know how many boards would equal a rib but I think you would also have to consider that the boards are supported by concrete block and don't have a lot of room to move where as the human body can move a lot when hit so being able to strike not the target but through the target is a concept that each student should learn.



So do speed breaks...


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## david7510 (Dec 19, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> So do speed breaks...



Dirty Dog makes a great point that I did not think about. Yes the opponent moves constantly but if you practice and take 2 hours to do a break people don't stand still that long but if you practice walking up and doing the break fast and immediately then you will be able to do that in a fight. Thanks Mr. Dirty Dog.


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## skribs (Dec 19, 2017)

WC_lun said:


> Board breaking is like many of the kung fu tricks.  Awsome for show, very little to do with true martial ability.  I do think it is great for the confidence of beginners though.



It shows that you know the technique well enough to:

Strike accurately (hit the board at a point it will break, at the right distance to do so with power)
Strike correctly (i.e. a side kick with the heel or blade of the foot instead of the toes)
Strike with power (enough power to break the board, and the proper follow-through to ensure it gets done)
If you use the board breaking as a way to assess mastery of a technique, it's a good tool.  If you use board breaking to assess the overall martial arts capability of a student, it's a terrible tool.

Both Taekwondo dojangs I've gone to have had board breaking as part of the test.  We've also had forms, sparring, and other drills or exercises involved as well.  Board breaking is a great way to assess technique, even if doesn't demonstrate total martial ability.

As an analogy, I used to play a lot of MMORPGs.  Most players in those games have a damage meter, and people like to see how much damage they did, especially if they "top" the meters.  Now, some players thought they were good because they topped the meters, even though they were often attacking the wrong enemy, getting hit by avoidable attacks, or failing to use the correct abilities to counter what the enemy is doing.  So, while a damage meter can be used to tell who is slacking on damage, it can also be used by someone to say "I'm the best ever because look at my numbers", when clearly they aren't following suit.

Board breaking is similar.  It's a good tool if used correctly, to assess what it assesses.  It's not a good tool to assess anything more.


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## wab25 (Dec 19, 2017)

Now I am confused...


david7510 said:


> I never said breaking was any form of training for fighting.


Followed by...


david7510 said:


> if you practice walking up and doing the break fast and immediately then you will be able to do that in a fight.


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## david7510 (Dec 19, 2017)

skribs said:


> It shows that you know the technique well enough to:
> 
> Strike accurately (hit the board at a point it will break, at the right distance to do so with power)
> Strike correctly (i.e. a side kick with the heel or blade of the foot instead of the toes)
> ...



Another great point! I do not use breaking when I test my students. I only use it to help teach the proper striking technique (going through the target and not stopping at the surface) it never fails to amaze me how many people do not go through the target and it does give that confidence when you know not just believe but know you can do damage with your strikes.


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## Midnight-shadow (Dec 19, 2017)

I can definitely see the purpose of breaking, although my style doesn't practice breaking boards except for occasional seminars (once or twice a year). To me, board breaking is very much like forms/kata training. We could debate until the cows come home its effectiveness compared to other training methods, but I don't see breaking boards as inherently a bad thing. If you break boards as part of your training it's not going to make you a worse martial artist, unless of course you do nothing but breaking boards. But then of course you could say the exact same thing about a lot of training methods, like bag work or static drills. All of those practices have their place in the training hall as long as they are done in moderation and you understand the limitations of the training.


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## david7510 (Dec 19, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I can definitely see the purpose of breaking, although my style doesn't practice breaking boards except for occasional seminars (once or twice a year). To me, board breaking is very much like forms/kata training. We could debate until the cows come home its effectiveness compared to other training methods, but I don't see breaking boards as inherently a bad thing. If you break boards as part of your training it's not going to make you a worse martial artist, unless of course you do nothing but breaking boards. But then of course you could say the exact same thing about a lot of training methods, like bag work or static drills. All of those practices have their place in the training hall as long as they are done in moderation and you understand the limitations of the training.



Thank you Midnight Shadow, question is a midnight shadow darker then a 2 am shadow? So now that I got this started let me ask all the learned individuals out there a few other questions. How do you feel about the timed testing where you either test every 2 or 3 months and no matter how some one does they pass or the places that say you can't test for 6 months for a color belt or the number of years for the degree of black you are going for, 3 years for a 3rd degree, 5 for a 5th and so on. I personally feel that the student must come to the instructor and let them know that they think they are ready but if the instructor dose not agree then they can not test until they have fixed what ever is wrong or missing. That way a student that does not know the material does not get promoted and some one that does have it down is not held back. That is how I do it and I work with my students individually as much as I can. Just want the opinions of of others no matter what your rank. And thank you all for your input/


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## Buka (Dec 19, 2017)

Welcome to MartialTalk, David. Hope you enjoy it here.

As for the "white belt" designation under your avatar, that only denotes how many posts you've put up, it has nothing to do with actual rank.

As I read this thread today, I'm sure nobody was trying to insult you or anyone else. I think a forum format just takes some getting used to.


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## david7510 (Dec 19, 2017)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, David. Hope you enjoy it here.
> 
> As for the "white belt" designation under your avatar, that only denotes how many posts you've put up, it has nothing to do with actual rank.
> 
> As I read this thread today, I'm sure nobody was trying to insult you or anyone else. I think a forum format just takes some getting used to.


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## david7510 (Dec 19, 2017)

Thank you Buka, yeah I had no idea about the belt thing, I just didn't want people to think I was newbie in the arts that was spouting off drivel. It might still be drivel but.... you know. 

I have to say that I am actually surprised that I even got a response as this seemed to be an old area and I am actually kinda enjoying this, I really do appreciate different points of view but as far as being insulted it did come off that way to me. But then again as treebread and the ents said you are not orcks. So I don't take things to seriously on these things, so much is lost when not face to face. And I know that the vast majority of martial artist are very polite and respectful. Comes with the training and the knowledge  of ones abilities. Must get ready for class but I will read any answers to my question earlier and want to say Merry Christmas  to every one.


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## Buka (Dec 20, 2017)

david7510 said:


> Thank you Buka, yeah I had no idea about the belt thing, I just didn't want people to think I was newbie in the arts that was spouting off drivel. It might still be drivel but.... you know.
> 
> I have to say that I am actually surprised that I even got a response as this seemed to be an old area and I am actually kinda enjoying this, I really do appreciate different points of view but as far as being insulted it did come off that way to me. But then again as treebread and the ents said you are not orcks. So I don't take things to seriously on these things, so much is lost when not face to face. And I know that the vast majority of martial artist are very polite and respectful. Comes with the training and the knowledge  of ones abilities. Must get ready for class but I will read any answers to my question earlier and want to say Merry Christmas  to every one.



Merry Christmas back atcha, brother.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2017)

Is breaking ribs necessarily the point of body shots though?


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## david7510 (Dec 20, 2017)

Well let me tell you a story I tell my students. I was at a pool hall practicing when in walks 2 guys, no biggie. After a bit they get into a confrontation and were ask to leave. They leave and a few minutes later one comes back in with a gun pointing it around. Thankfully no one was hurt.

Now let's say I am at the bar with my girl you come in have a few drinks and start hitting on her. I ask you to leave, you through a punch, I block pin your hand behind you and slam you face first into the table. You say your sorry and I let you go, you leave come back with a gun and shot me dead. And don't say that wont happen in today's society. It happens all the time. So I ask you is training to break ribs and put an attacker in the hospital, protect yourself and family the reason you train or is it to tap some one once and then let them go just to have them ambush you later. 

I personally train to protect myself and loved ones and will do what ever it takes to accomplish that, but to each their own. 

My philosophy is simple, you come at me with empty hands you want to put me in the hospital, I am not going you are and you don't get a second chance to came back and kill me. You come at me with a weapon, club, knife or gun you want to kill me, I will take it away from you and use it against you and you will be lucky if you only go to the hospital and not the morgue. I do not train or teach for sport. How do you train what do you really train for?


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## Midnight-shadow (Dec 20, 2017)

david7510 said:


> Well let me tell you a story I tell my students. I was at a pool hall practicing when in walks 2 guys, no biggie. After a bit they get into a confrontation and were ask to leave. They leave and a few minutes later one comes back in with a gun pointing it around. Thankfully no one was hurt.
> 
> Now let's say I am at the bar with my girl you come in have a few drinks and start hitting on her. I ask you to leave, you through a punch, I block pin your hand behind you and slam you face first into the table. You say your sorry and I let you go, you leave come back with a gun and shot me dead. And don't say that wont happen in today's society. It happens all the time. So I ask you is training to break ribs and put an attacker in the hospital, protect yourself and family the reason you train or is it to tap some one once and then let them go just to have them ambush you later.
> 
> ...



I can definitely see your point of view, however in that particular scenario the law might be against you, because of excessive force. If someone threw a punch at you that at most would have resulted in a black eye or a broken nose, and in response you beat them to within an inch of their life, you would have trouble justifying that in court. It doesn't even matter if the other person hit you first.


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## david7510 (Dec 20, 2017)

I have discussed this with local law and have done research and all you have to say is that you had no idea what the person was going to do or was capable of doing and that you had a fear for your life. You do have the right to self defense and that is what you did.


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## Midnight-shadow (Dec 20, 2017)

david7510 said:


> I have discussed this with local law and have done research and all you have to say is that you had no idea what the person was going to do or was capable of doing and that you had a fear for your life. You do have the right to self defense and that is what you did.



I don't know where you live but in the UK where I live, if a self-defence case goes to the courts, the jury will decide on whether excessive force was used based on the circumstances and results, regardless of what the defendant thought was reasonable at the time. The jury would also take any form of training into account when deciding this, so you, being a trained Martial Artist, would be expected to show more self-restraint and control than your average person.

You also have to consider exactly how you went about dealing with the attack. If for example you took your scenario in the bar, and as soon as the attacker punched you, you did a single reactive strike that just so happened to break the guy's ribs, you could claim self defence. However, if you pinned the guys arm to stop the attack, then proceeded to beat the **** out of him, you would no longer be able to claim self defence. In stopping the initial attack you have eliminated the threat to your life, meaning any subsequent force you used would not be considered self-defence.  Here's an example of this happening:



> The classic test comes from the Australian case of _Palmer v The Queen_, on appeal to the Privy Council in 1971:
> 
> "The defence of self-defence is one which can be and will be readily understood by any jury. It is a straightforward conception. It involves no abstruse legal thought. ...Only common sense is needed for its understanding. It is both good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but may only do, what is reasonably necessary. But everything will depend upon the particular facts and circumstances. ...It may in some cases be only sensible and clearly possible to take some simple avoiding action. Some attacks may be serious and dangerous. Others may not be. If there is some relatively minor attack it would not be common sense to permit some action of retaliation which was wholly out of proportion to the necessities of the situation. If an attack is serious so that it puts someone in immediate peril then immediate defensive action may be necessary. If the moment is one of crisis for someone in imminent danger he may have [to] avert the danger by some instant reaction. If the attack is all over and no sort of peril remains then the employment of force may be by way of revenge or punishment or by way of paying off an old score or may be pure aggression. There may no longer be any link with a necessity of defence... If a jury thought that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought was necessary that would be most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken."[3]
> In _R v Lindsay_,[4] the defendant, who picked up a sword in self-defence when attacked in his home by three masked intruders armed with loaded handguns, killed one of them by slashing him repeatedly. The prosecution case was that, although he had initially acted in self-defence, he had then lost his self-control and demonstrated a clear intent to kill the armed intruder. The Court of Appeal confirmed an eight-year term of imprisonment. It would not be expected that an ordinary householder who "went too far" when defending against armed intruders would receive such a long sentence.


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## david7510 (Dec 20, 2017)

Ah I know what you are saying but then again how do you know when it is over how do you know that he was going to stop and not pull a knife out and stab you. Answer you don't the only way you can be sure that you are no longer threatened is when the attacker can not possibly be of any further threat. That is when you stop. Now in your example the guy was sliced and if it was to the point his guts were coming out then uh yeah he would probably no longer be a threat but at the same time if he raises his gun toward you then he obviously is still a threat. So you have to ask at what point was he longer a threat and then after that if the home owner still tried to cut him up more then ok that would be excessive. To avoid that the home owner could have sliced his throat with the sword killing him with one shot and then he could have claimed self defense. But sounds like the owner went way beyond, I have no idea, Did he stab him 45 times, I mean obviously he did more then was necessary. In these cases there always seems to be more to the story.

The lady in Texas who had 2 or 3 people break into her home, she took the kids and a gun and hid in the closet. When an intruder open the door she fired as many times as she felt was needed to protect her and her kids and she was never arrested or tried.

Depends all in how you present yourself and as to whether or not you can say that you felt your life was threatened and you did what you felt you had to to save yourself or your family. I personally am not worried about the law. Again I am not giving you the chance to go out get a gun and come back and kill me or my family. So if I feel that you might have a weapon, and I don't have anyway to know one way or the other so I am not going to assume that the guy attacks me is just really a nice guy down deep and dosen't mean anything bad. I will assume an attacker is capable of doing anything so therefore I will use any and all means I feel necessary at the time. I am not say kill every one I am saying stop them if you can and I mean stop them but you come with intent to kill, then I will defend myself appropriately

Every one else is free to do as they feel is right I just hope that no one ever has to be in that situation to begin with but if you do, don't make a mistake that ends in you or your loved ones demise. .


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Is breaking ribs necessarily the point of body shots though?



Sometimes.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2017)

david7510 said:


> Well let me tell you a story I tell my students. I was at a pool hall practicing when in walks 2 guys, no biggie. After a bit they get into a confrontation and were ask to leave. They leave and a few minutes later one comes back in with a gun pointing it around. Thankfully no one was hurt.
> 
> Now let's say I am at the bar with my girl you come in have a few drinks and start hitting on her. I ask you to leave, you through a punch, I block pin your hand behind you and slam you face first into the table. You say your sorry and I let you go, you leave come back with a gun and shot me dead. And don't say that wont happen in today's society. It happens all the time. So I ask you is training to break ribs and put an attacker in the hospital, protect yourself and family the reason you train or is it to tap some one once and then let them go just to have them ambush you later.
> 
> ...



Well let me tell you a story. My coach ate a spinning kick to the liver in a sports fight that quite simply incapacitated him but did not break a single thing. Ended the fight with that shot.

Now if breaking ribs dropped guys and ended fights everyone would be doing it. 

Nothing to do with being streetier than the streets. I am not sure breaking ribs is necessarily the most effective shot. Or even what you are necessarily targeting with a body shot.

Hitting hard yeah. Rib breaking not really.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Well let me tell you a story. My coach ate a spinning kick to the liver in a sports fight that quite simply incapacitated him but did not break a single thing. Ended the fight with that shot.
> 
> Now if breaking ribs dropped guys and ended fights everyone would be doing it.
> 
> ...



I think it's safe to say that the goal of striking is to injure whatever the target is. Might be the liver. Might be the ribs. Might be the head.
It is, certainly, much harder to break a rib wearing big puffy gloves than bare knuckled. It's not as hard wearing MMA-style gloves, but any competition-style glove will spread the impact out to a greater or lesser degree.


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## Midnight-shadow (Dec 21, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it's safe to say that the goal of striking is to injure whatever the target is. Might be the liver. Might be the ribs. Might be the head.
> It is, certainly, much harder to break a rib wearing big puffy gloves than bare knuckled. It's not as hard wearing MMA-style gloves, but any competition-style glove will spread the impact out to a greater or lesser degree.



In a self-defence scenario I believe the goal should be to either disengage or (if necessary) incapacitate the attacker without causing any permanent injury. Something like this:






Aggressor incapacitated without anyone getting injured. Of course, this particular scenario only worked out because the guy doing the choke was able to approach the aggressor unnoticed from behind and apply the move before the guy had a chance to react. Now, is breaking someone's ribs going to stop a fight? Potentially, but it's also possible that the attacker will ignore the pain or not even notice it through adrenaline until afterwards. The same could be said of attacks to the Liver and Kidneys. Yes these attacks could cause a lot of damage, but probably won't stop the fight immediately.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> In a self-defence scenario I believe the goal should be to either disengage or (if necessary) incapacitate the attacker without causing any permanent injury. Something like this:



I'd say the goal should be for me to walk away unharmed. If that means causing permanent injury to the assailant, then I will cause permanent injury to the assailant.
That means options include everything from running away up to and including putting a bullet (or more than one) in them.


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## Midnight-shadow (Dec 21, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd say the goal should be for me to walk away unharmed. If that means causing permanent injury to the assailant, then I will cause permanent injury to the assailant.
> That means options include everything from running away up to and including putting a bullet (or more than one) in them.



Agreed. I was talking about the ideal scenario where both parties walked away unharmed with minimal chance of prosecution or complications with the law.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 21, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd say the goal should be for me to walk away unharmed. If that means causing permanent injury to the assailant, then I will cause permanent injury to the assailant.
> That means options include everything from running away up to and including putting a bullet (or more than one) in them.


Agreed. If I feel I have the option, I'd prefer not to do serious damage to them. If I'm unsure, I'll keep doing whatever I can to survive, including the ends of the spectrum you state.


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## david7510 (Dec 21, 2017)

I agree with gpseymour and dirty dog and midnight shadow. I never once said that I wouldn't try to avoid a confrontation or that I was out looking for fights. I simply said that I will do whatever I feel necessary for the safety of my family and myself. I was speaking to the need to be prepared, remember it is a mental state that you need to achieve if all you train is your body and not the mind and spirit please don't call yourself a martial artist call yourself a sport martial artist instead.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 21, 2017)

david7510 said:


> I agree with gpseymour and dirty dog and midnight shadow. I never once said that I wouldn't try to avoid a confrontation or that I was out looking for fights. I simply said that I will do whatever I feel necessary for the safety of my family and myself. I was speaking to the need to be prepared, remember it is a mental state that you need to achieve if all you train is your body and not the mind and spirit please don't call yourself a martial artist call yourself a sport martial artist instead.


I'm not a fan of creating divisions like that. Plenty of folks who train for sporting use of MA skills have good warrior spirit and focus on protecting themselves. "Sport" is not a lesser thing.


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## Buka (Dec 21, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> In a self-defence scenario I believe the goal should be to either disengage or (if necessary) incapacitate the attacker without causing any permanent injury. Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's always been one of my favorite Youtube vids of all time. It was so nice to see it again over morning coffee. Hard not to smile watching that.


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## david7510 (Dec 21, 2017)

I understand your point but then again those you speak of train fully in all areas and are Martial Artists I was referring to the one that don't. Ever see an MMA fighter that walks around talking about ripping his oppents arm of and beating him with it and then when the first punch is thrown just covers up and runs. That's the guy I'm talking about.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 21, 2017)

david7510 said:


> I understand your point but then again those you speak of train fully in all areas and are Martial Artists I was referring to the one that don't. Ever see an MMA fighter that walks around talking about ripping his oppents arm of and beating him with it and then when the first punch is thrown just covers up and runs. That's the guy I'm talking about.


That's not unique to the sport side. You can find bad attitudes among the non-sport crowd, too. Most of us won't be on TV, so it won't be as spectacular, though.


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## david7510 (Dec 21, 2017)

You are absolutely right about that. But hey pay me enough money and I might let you beat me on TV and then buy an island and a big yacht and relax for the rest of my days.


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## wab25 (Dec 21, 2017)

david7510 said:


> I understand your point but then again those you speak of train fully in all areas and are Martial Artists I was referring to the one that don't. Ever see an MMA fighter that walks around talking about ripping his oppents arm of and beating him with it and then *when the first punch is thrown just covers up and runs.* That's the guy I'm talking about.


If we are talking real life, self defense, on the "street," then covering up and running might be the best reaction, provided you can get away. You may be good enough to knock the guy down, break his rib and pin him there... you might also find out you are in a knife fight, or a gun fight. (and you just broke gun fight rule number one: Bring a gun.) You might find out his buddies were right around the corner. You may knock the guy out with one punch, only to have him fall and hit his head on the way down, killing him... getting you at least into court for it, people have gone to jail for it. 

The point is, that if there is a way to exit, even if it involves covering and running, most of the time, that is your best course of action. I have a lot of things on my list to do tomorrow. Getting out of jail, getting out of the hospital and going to the morgue are not on my list. When the first punch is thrown, I will do whatever I need to do. If I can start my list of things to do, tomorrow... I succeeded. Even if that means covering up and running. If that means I should not be calling myself a martial artist, well, I'll get over it. I've been called worse.


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## skribs (Dec 21, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> In a self-defence scenario I believe the goal should be to either disengage or (if necessary) incapacitate the attacker without causing any permanent injury. Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My first priority is my own survival, my second priority is the survival of my friends and family, my third priority is that I act within the law and within my morals, and my fourth priority is that I protect any innocent strangers that I can.

The survival or the prognosis of the bad guy is at least my fifth priority.

That doesn't mean I'm out to hurt him.  I'm just saying my goal is to stop him from attacking and protect those I love.


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## JR 137 (Dec 21, 2017)

david7510 said:


> I understand your point but then again those you speak of train fully in all areas and are Martial Artists I was referring to the one that don't. Ever see an MMA fighter that walks around talking about ripping his oppents arm of and beating him with it and then when the first punch is thrown just covers up and runs. That's the guy I'm talking about.


My friends and I were walking out of a bar in Montreal late one night.  Two guys outside are arguing and one guy says “You’d better walk away. I’m a Navy SEAL.  I train to kill people with my bare hands.”  The other guy hit him in the jaw with a pretty slow and weak punch, knocking him unconscious with it.  The whole crowd laughed hysterically.  Navy SEAL my ***.


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## drop bear (Dec 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> My friends and I were walking out of a bar in Montreal late one night.  Two guys outside are arguing and one guy says “You’d better walk away. I’m a Navy SEAL.  I train to kill people with my bare hands.”  The other guy hit him in the jaw with a pretty slow and weak punch, knocking him unconscious with it.  The whole crowd laughed hysterically.  Navy SEAL my ***.



Maybe he meant performing


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Maybe he meant performing


Was there a beach ball nearby? A bucket of fish? What's your evidence??


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 24, 2017)

Couple of additional points.   1. A main purpose of breaking is the courage to attempt.    Breaking often has a potential for injury . Just as in a SD situation you need to focus on the goal and not be distracted by the possibility of injury.   2. Totaly TKD had an article in the last year where force needed to break additional boards was measured. It was not a factor of 10   If one boars was a factor of , then each addittional board was represented by 1 + 1xY. I will see if I can find the article to get the exact formula.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 24, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> Couple of additional points.   1. A main purpose of breaking is the courage to attempt.    Breaking often has a potential for injury . Just as in a SD situation you need to focus on the goal and not be distracted by the possibility of injury.   2. Totaly TKD had an article in the last year where force needed to break additional boards was measured. It was not a factor of 10   If one boars was a factor of , then each addittional board was represented by 1 + 1xY. I will see if I can find the article to get the exact formula.


One of these days I would like to do a scientific study to measure the forces required to break each additional board. If only I had the time.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 24, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> One of these days I would like to do a scientific study to measure the forces required to break each additional board. If only I had the time.


Before you spend time on that just get a copy of the article.  It was well done with a fist made from a lead casting as the contact instrument and  some great force measuring instruments.


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## Buka (Dec 24, 2017)

I'm thinking that the formula might be different depending on the wood?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2017)

Buka said:


> I'm thinking that the formula might be different depending on the wood?


Maybe, but I'd think the variation would be more in the starting number. So, if X is the force required to break one board (of whatever wood), then the formula for adding N boards is probably a variation from X. Intuitively, I can't decide if using thicker or thinner boards (which would change X) would change the formula.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 24, 2017)

Buka said:


> I'm thinking that the formula might be different depending on the wood?



Absolutely. And not just the type of wood (pine vs oak, for example) but condition. What's the moisture content? Wet wood is springy and as the moisture content goes up, it will be more difficult to break. How knotty is it? Is it flat or warped? If it's dry, did it split or crack?
Personally I prefer to break concrete pavers. They're more consistent, and unaffected by weather, for starters.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 25, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> Before you spend time on that just get a copy of the article.


A review of the literature is always one of the first steps before conducting any scientific study.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 25, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Absolutely. And not just the type of wood (pine vs oak, for example) but condition. What's the moisture content? Wet wood is springy and as the moisture content goes up, it will be more difficult to break. How knotty is it? Is it flat or warped? If it's dry, did it split or crack?
> Personally I prefer to break concrete pavers. They're more consistent, and unaffected by weather, for starters.



I think the initial factor of X to break one item would change but the multiplying  factor would be similar.     I think he may plan to use a man made material next due to elastic properties of wood vs Cement  or tiles.  I asked him to consider "Crown Up"  vs "Crown Down" and how that might affect the force. 

Back in 1979 or so I ran across this:  

https://blogs.otago.ac.nz/ouassa/files/2013/09/scientificamerican0479-1501.pdf

Not exactly focused on additional force for more materials but IMO interesting concerning elastic properties of materials and the human body.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think the initial factor of X to break one item would change but the multiplying  factor would be similar.



Maybe, but only if things like moisture content/knots/warp/etc were pretty much the same for each board in the stack, I suspect.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 25, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Maybe, but only if things like moisture content/knots/warp/etc were pretty much the same for each board in the stack, I suspect.


 If material stacked items were dissimilar i don't think you could get any meaningful results.   For the crown up Vs Crown down tests the material compared would be pieces cut from the same board and alternate the pieces so if one en of the board had different grain /moisture than the other the results would not be thrown off as they might if you did the first 5 pieces one way and the next five, all from the same board another


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> If material stacked items were dissimilar i don't think you could get any meaningful results.   For the crown up Vs Crown down tests the material compared would be pieces cut from the same board and alternate the pieces so if one en of the board had different grain /moisture than the other the results would not be thrown off as they might if you did the first 5 pieces one way and the next five, all from the same board another



The results would still be different, I suspect. Because it is unlikely that one board is going to vary much from one end to the other, so much as one board to another. Best you could do would be to break X stacks of random boards and calculate a mean. 
And people wonder why I prefer concrete...


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> The results would still be different, I suspect. Because it is unlikely that one board is going to vary much from one end to the other, so much as one board to another. Best you could do would be to break X stacks of random boards and calculate a mean.
> And people wonder why I prefer concrete...


Agreed. Any formula would be theoretical - using a theoretically identical set of boards.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. Any formula would be theoretical - using a theoretically identical set of boards.


Found the article. If you PM me with your e-mail i can send a copy.     He used about 5 different materials including re breakables.   he came up with this formula.  Let say force required to break one was 12.09.   The formula for each additional board was that additional force times the number of "Junctions" between boards.  (so 2 boards had one junction, 3 boards had 2.) times a force multiplier of 1.2. So, using the first example 2 boards was 12.09 + 12.09 =24.18 x 1.02 or 29.016 and 3 boards was 12.09 + 12.09 +, 12.09 = 36.27 x 1,2 x 1.2 = 52.28. 
He used 4 different materials and measured 3-5 samples from each. 
The multiplier varied by material from 1.2-1.25  and variations from predictions to test results varied  from  0.27 -13%


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## Anarax (Dec 30, 2017)

One of my old school karate teachers told me that board breaking's end goal is to teach how to use vibrations. Some competitive board breakers have demonstrated by striking two boards(one behind the other) but only breaking the back one, the front one remaining intact. Though confidence and proper hand alignment are other things to be gained by doing so. Granted they're actual boards and not the pre-cut ones you unfortunately see a lot in dojos.


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## sangchae (Jan 4, 2018)

Argus said:


> I always wondered if board breaking, in some instances, encouraged bad practices.
> 
> For example, downward strikes. Now, I don't know how power is generated in most forms of Karate, but in my art, it's important that the "ground" is behind our strike; the elbow is underneath the fist, the body and stance is underneath the elbow, and the ground is underneath the body. However, if you're breaking something by striking down, aren't you using only your upper body strength, and getting absolutely no help from the stance and the ground?
> 
> As I said, most forms of Karate are probably different, but even in Karate, I'm sure that engaging your lower body when striking is important, is it not?



I like using board breaking to develop the ability to accelerate into a strike. I practice with unsupported boards (ie. throw it in the air and hit it). If your punch isn't fast enough it doesn't break. I usually use re-breakable plastic ones because it gives me a measure of improvement as I progress through the different grades of boards. It certainly lets you measure your progress, and for me destroyed my illusion that my left hand punched anywhere near as fast as my right! Even for downward strikes it helps you to develop the timing to drop your body weight into the strike at the right time. You're still using your whole body, just in a different way.


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## JR 137 (Jan 4, 2018)

sangchae said:


> I like using board breaking to develop the ability to accelerate into a strike. I practice with unsupported boards (ie. throw it in the air and hit it). If your punch isn't fast enough it doesn't break. I usually use re-breakable plastic ones because it gives me a measure of improvement as I progress through the different grades of boards. It certainly lets you measure your progress, and for me destroyed my illusion that my left hand punched anywhere near as fast as my right! Even for downward strikes it helps you to develop the timing to drop your body weight into the strike at the right time. You're still using your whole body, just in a different way.


I’m not the biggest fan of rebreakable boards, but I don’t hate them either; I’m pretty much indifferent to them.

The one thing I like most about them is they seem to have a significantly smaller margin of error regarding the striking target.  I’d imagine breaking them in the air would be a lot harder than wooden boards.  Have you noticed a difference?


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## sangchae (Jan 4, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not the biggest fan of rebreakable boards, but I don’t hate them either; I’m pretty much indifferent to them.
> 
> The one thing I like most about them is they seem to have a significantly smaller margin of error regarding the striking target.  I’d imagine breaking them in the air would be a lot harder than wooden boards.  Have you noticed a difference?


I use the UMAB ones, which have 7 grades. I think the 4th grade (green) is supposed to be about the same as a pine board in force required to break it. Not sure how accurate that is though. As you say you do have to hit the re-breakable ones in the middle, where with pine you can drift off a bit more. They're not cheap, but mean you avoid buying pine every week!


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 4, 2018)

sangchae said:


> I use the UMAB ones, which have 7 grades. I think the 4th grade (green) is supposed to be about the same as a pine board in force required to break it. Not sure how accurate that is though. As you say you do have to hit the re-breakable ones in the middle, where with pine you can drift off a bit more. They're not cheap, but mean you avoid buying pine every week!



I think that they're reasonably close to a standard pine board. That's subjective, of course, but that's how they 'feel' to someone who has broken literally hundreds of boards over the years. 
Personally, I like that they require more accuracy; accuracy is something to be encouraged.
And while you're right that they're a bit pricey up front, I do think they're worth it in the long run, both in cost of boards over the lifespan of the rebreakable, and in the convenience of always having them available at any time.


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