# How to Find a Wing Chun School That is Modernized



## macher (Apr 2, 2018)

Interesting in Wing Chun but realize that it’s best to find a school that teaches real life applications and that Wing Chun could be modified to incorporate techniques like boxing and ground fighting. I’m in the Philly area. What’s the best way to find out if a school teaches not necessarily the traditional way but more adaptable in today’s world? Thanks!


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## macher (Apr 2, 2018)

I’ve been watching videos on this Sifu channel and it looks like he incorporates other arts in his Wing Chun teaching. That’s what I’m looking for.

Fight SCIENCE


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## KPM (Apr 2, 2018)

The best way is to visit and watch training!  If they aren't sparring for that particular class ask someone if they do spar and how often.  If they say they don't spar, then they are not a "modernized" school!


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## Flying Crane (Apr 2, 2018)

So do I understand correctly that you have no experience in training wing chun?  Your only experience is from watching some guy’s YouTube channel?

Yet you have already identified wing chun’s flaws, and how to fix them?

Let me ask:  if you already perceive wing chun as flawed, why would you be interested in training it?


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## macher (Apr 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> So do I understand correctly that you have no experience in training wing chun?  Your only experience is from watching some guy’s YouTube channel?
> 
> Yet you have already identified wing chun’s flaws, and how to fix them?
> 
> Let me ask:  if you already perceive wing chun as flawed, why would you be interested in training it?



I don’t perceive Wing Chun as flawed. But I do perceive traditional Wing Chun not adapting to the modern fighting climate such as footwork and head movement. What I like about Wing Chun is when you close the distance.


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2018)

They would compete.


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## Headhunter (Apr 3, 2018)

macher said:


> I don’t perceive Wing Chun as flawed. But I do perceive traditional Wing Chun not adapting to the modern fighting climate such as footwork and head movement. What I like about Wing Chun is when you close the distance.


Modern fighting? Fighting is fighting. People still punch In fights today people still kick in fights today it's all the same. Just go train instead of worrying about all that nonsense


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## Flying Crane (Apr 3, 2018)

macher said:


> I don’t perceive Wing Chun as flawed. But I do perceive traditional Wing Chun not adapting to the modern fighting climate such as footwork and head movement. What I like about Wing Chun is when you close the distance.


I guess I am trying to understand why you have this perception, when you havent even studied it yet.

You’ve watched some guy’s YouTube channel, and he is apparently biased and has his own angle on things.  But that does not mean he knows what everyone else in the wing chun world is doing.

Every school is different, even within the same wing chun lineage.  Every sifu will have his own unique take on things, to a certain extent.  It is not accurate to paint this with such broad strokes, although people certainly do try.

Don’t be fooled by it.  

Some schools are junk, that is true enough.  But others are not. If you are honestly interested in wing chun, then find a good school and begin training, and throw away your preconceived notions about how you think it ought to be done.  Learn it for what it is, and you just might find something that works quite well, once you understand it.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2018)

macher said:


> I don’t perceive Wing Chun as flawed. But I do perceive traditional Wing Chun not adapting to the modern fighting climate such as footwork and head movement. What I like about Wing Chun is when you close the distance.



Look for a Jeet Kune Do School then. Wing Chun is Wing Chun if it changes its basics it is no longer Wing Chun


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## Martial D (Apr 3, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Look for a Jeet Kune Do School then. Wing Chun is Wing Chun if it changes its basics it is no longer Wing Chun





Flying Crane said:


> I guess I am trying to understand why you have this perception, when you havent even studied it yet.
> 
> You’ve watched some guy’s YouTube channel, and he is apparently biased and has his own angle on things.  But that does not mean he knows what everyone else in the wing chun world is doing.
> 
> ...



To be fair, I have been training Wing Chun (admittedly with a few breaks) since 1996 or so, and I mostly agree with never-did-wingchun-guy in terms of the usefulness of "traditional" Wing Chun training methods. Of course there are many schools and teachers that agree and have thusly modernized.

The problem as I see it is the fighting game hasn't remained still while WC, and many other TMA, have been frozen in time for a hundred years or more. Against untrained people or people that fight old timey style, traditional MA is an advantage to be sure, but against people using modern methods it, they, have been proven to not be up to snuff time and time again.

To me though, this is a good thing. If the collective edge isn't getting sharper with time, what are we even doing?

I am currently training MMA 5 days a week purely to improve my WC, and since I have started it has improved dramatically.


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## Danny T (Apr 3, 2018)

I can't say I understand what 'modern' wc is or even what traditional wc is. My sifu came up in the 60s in Hong Kong. His training at that time included them going out and fighting. They didn't spar they went out got into fights. Then back to training playing with what worked, what didn't work, and why. His sifu would fuss about them fighting but then wanted to know what happened and worked on them getting better. The difference today, as I see it, is the lack of fighting, losing, and figuring out why. So sparring is the next best thing and many wc schools don't spar because that is traditional. WHAT??? 
Train, Spar or Fight, Learn. Otherwise you really aren't doing wc. Oh and Chi Sao IS NOT sparring or fighting. That is but one drill.


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## Martial D (Apr 3, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I can't say I understand what 'modern' wc is or even what traditional wc is. My sifu came up in the 60s in Hong Kong. His training at that time included them going out and fighting. They didn't spar they went out got into fights. Then back to training playing with what worked, what didn't work, and why. His sifu would fuss about them fighting but then wanted to know what happened and worked on them getting better. The difference today, as I see it, is the lack of fighting, losing, and figuring out why. So sparring is the next best thing and many wc schools don't spar because that is traditional. WHAT???
> Train, Spar or Fight, Learn. Otherwise you really aren't doing wc. Oh and Chi Sao IS NOT sparring or fighting. That is but one drill.


I can't speak for anyone else, but when I talk about 'traditional' WC training I mean classes that are purely forms, chi sau and solo/cooperative drills. This, in my experience at least, seems to make up the bulk of it.


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## geezer (Apr 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but when I talk about 'traditional' WC training I mean classes that are purely forms, chi sau and solo/cooperative drills. This, in my experience at least, seems to make up the bulk of it.



Yep. That's pretty much how our club is. The students are older guys and some have health concerns -- for example one is a heart transplant recipient. They want something more "punchy-fighty" than typical tai chi, but they don't really want to fight. And (this part kinda confuses me) no one like to grapple or do WC sweeps throws. Wierd, because that stuff can be really fun.

Oh well. It's the group we have, and with going on sixty-three and half crippled with old injuries, I accept that. At least I have another 62-year-old crippled training partner I do escrima with who _does_ like to mix it up. When I come limping home all beat up, my wife doesn't understand why I'm smiling.


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## geezer (Apr 3, 2018)

BTW I added the above in the interest of _honesty_. I fully support efforts to keep WC evolving and effective as a fighting art ...but I don't think the activity needs to be the exclusive domain of fighters. Yes, they should be it's heart and soul, and its "laboratory", but there is _room for everybody_ to participate ...so long as we are all honest with ourselves about what we are doing.

Everybody should recognize that there is no _magic_ to kung fu. Of course you have to fight if you want to be a fighter.


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## macher (Apr 3, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I can't say I understand what 'modern' wc is or even what traditional wc is. My sifu came up in the 60s in Hong Kong. His training at that time included them going out and fighting. They didn't spar they went out got into fights. Then back to training playing with what worked, what didn't work, and why. His sifu would fuss about them fighting but then wanted to know what happened and worked on them getting better. The difference today, as I see it, is the lack of fighting, losing, and figuring out why. So sparring is the next best thing and many wc schools don't spar because that is traditional. WHAT???
> Train, Spar or Fight, Learn. Otherwise you really aren't doing wc. Oh and Chi Sao IS NOT sparring or fighting. That is but one drill.



I want a school that spars.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> T
> but against people using modern methods it, they, have been proven to not be up to snuff time and time again.



I agree with you on many points but I have a question..... proven where time and time again?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 3, 2018)

macher said:


> I want a school that spars.


Then find a school that spars.  It isn’t magic.  There is no secret about it.  That does not dictate whether it is “modernized” or not.

If you want wing chun, then find a school and learn wing chun.  If you THINK you know how wing chun should be “improved” then maybe you ought to look for something else because whether you realize it or not, you have already subconsciously written it off as deficient, and you will never be satisfied learning wing chun.  You will constantly doubt what you are learning.

In that case, find something else that is a better match for you.

Not everything is a good match for every person.  You need to figure out what is best for you.  That does not include starting something new while already thinking that you need to do something to “fix” it.


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## Danny T (Apr 3, 2018)

Here's a novel idea.
Train at whatever wc school you can and go to other gyms and spar.
There are a lot of schools, gyms, whatever that offer open sparring or open mat times. You will get to train and also spar against other non wing chun practitioners.


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## Martial D (Apr 3, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> I agree with you on many points but I have a question..... proven where time and time again?


Anywhere you see Wing Chun used live really.  You can do all the chi sau and drilling you want, but those things will never prepare you for live punches, live distance control, or an opponent that is highly uncooperative to the point of trying to rattle your brains a little..

Nothing prepares you for this except doing it.

And I'm sure you would admit that most WC schools are not, or am mistaken?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 3, 2018)

macher said:


> I want a school that spars.


There are many ways to develop dependable MA skill. The sparring is not the only way.

For example, if you can hit my head within your first 20 punches, you win that round. Otherwise, I win that round. Repeat this for 15 rounds and record the daily result. Repeat it for 1 months and record the monthly result.

The reason that I don't like pure sparring because people may be afraid to develop new MA skill. You may spar for 5 years but at the end of the 5th year, your sparring may be no different from what you did on your 1st year.

In my last class, we played a very simple game. If one can obtain a clinch after his opponent's 1st or 2nd punch, he wins that round. Otherwise, he loses that round. Played for 15 rounds, recorded the result, and switched.

The nice thing about this game is you can "test" almost any MA skill.


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## Martial D (Apr 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are many ways to develop dependable MA skill. The sparring is not the only way.
> 
> For example, if you can hit my head with your first 20 punches, you win that round. Otherwise, I win that round. Repeat this for 15 rounds and record the daily result. Repeat it for 6 months and record the 6 months result.
> 
> ...


Ok. Then what happens when instead of 20 punches, it's 15 punches and 5 kicks?

Aside from that I don't know if sitting back and trying to block punches would work out so well for the blocker.

You just can't simulate an alive give and take when there is a script involved.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ok. Then what happens when instead of 20 punches, it's 15 punches and 5 kicks?
> 
> Aside from that I don't know if sitting back and trying to block punches would work out so well for the blocker.
> 
> You just can't simulate an alive give and take when there is a script involved.


After you have set the rule, you just have to follow it.

- The 1st week you may want to develop "foot sweep".
- The 2nd week you may want to develop "single leg".
- The 3rd week you may want to develop "side kick",
- ...

Since your opponent will know the only move that you are going to use on him, he will try very hard not to give you that opportunity. You will have to try very hard to create that opportunity for yourself.

In regular sparring, one may spar for 5 years and still only know how to throw jab and cross. You can force a WC class to only use "hip throw" for 1 week.


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## Martial D (Apr 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> After you have set the rule, you just have to follow it.
> 
> - The 1st week you may want to develop "foot sweep".
> - The 2nd week you may want to develop "single leg".
> ...


I get it, and those sound like good drills.

I just don't think that will prepare you for an actual fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I get it, and those sound like good drills.
> 
> I just don't think that will prepare you for an actual fight.


I'll consider this as part of the "develop" stage. It helps you to develop new tools. The more tools that you have, the better chance that you will have in an actual fight.


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## KPM (Apr 3, 2018)

^^^^  As John indicates, there can be a wide definition of "sparring."   "Sparring" need not always be "all out and no holds barred."  Years ago Paul Vunak had a whole program he called "progressive sparring."  I like his idea of progressively building up to a point where you are going all out with no rules.  On the way to that there may be many different sparring "games" as John noted.  You can also work on technique, specific strategies, etc.


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I get it, and those sound like good drills.
> 
> I just don't think that will prepare you for an actual fight.



It is a drill. It forces people to be better fighters. So I do MMA I don't have to wrestle. I do wrestling I do have to wrestle.

I do both then I can either wrestle or not as I choose.


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Modern fighting? Fighting is fighting. People still punch In fights today people still kick in fights today it's all the same. Just go train instead of worrying about all that nonsense



Nope. 

Not if you are looking at trained fighters doing modern systems. Fighting as a science has progressed.

Having the same number of arms and legs in practice means nothing.

I have the same number of arms and legs as Ursain Bolt, Michael Jordan and Mike Tyson.

I am not anywhere near the same level of technical proficiency as those guys.


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## Ojibway Bob (Apr 3, 2018)

I am a bit perplexed. Sorry I know I am new and all but it sounds like some of you walk around looking for fights. I do not understand this thought process. Is MA not supposed to train the way of thought to see glasses half full and not; "See that half empty glass over there? ima go and SMASH it!"

I used to take Karate a fair bit when I was a kid. Like most I got older, weaker, and well...mostly unfit. I ended up lifting weights, going on walks, swim and lost 50lb. Not bad for 40 I thought but I wanted more. I loved MA as a kid but with the extra weight I walked around with for so many years took a toll on my knees. I asked a few MA friends and they suggested I try WC. So I found a school and started to go. I admit the stance is killer but after a month and half of a few classes each week, Knees are amazingly better. I mean I am not about to go on wind sprints but I can at least walk up stairs again and not have to worry about tripping up the stairs because I can't lift my knees.

There is too much anger in the world for me to want to hurt people. I have gotten too old to want to inflict my will on people now lol...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Anywhere you see Wing Chun used live really.  You can do all the chi sau and drilling you want, but those things will never prepare you for live punches, live distance control, or an opponent that is highly uncooperative to the point of trying to rattle your brains a little..
> 
> Nothing prepares you for this except doing it.
> 
> And I'm sure you would admit that most WC schools are not, or am mistaken?



So you are basing this on observation and opinion then and claiming it to be proven time and time again. Albeit you may be correct, but you are basing the "time and time again" statement on your opinion based on your observation of the few you have seen. Which by the way is not proof.


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## Martial D (Apr 3, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> So you are basing this on observation and opinion then and claiming it to be proven time and time again. Albeit you may be correct, but you are basing the "time and time again" statement on your opinion based on your observation of the few you have seen. Which by the way is not proof.


And the preponderance of all of the recorded footage of such would indicate what? Time and Time again?

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe the bulk of WC training involves live sparring or that it doesn't? And if you think that it does, where is the evidence that it works?

Call me a jerk if you want, but I'm just not having the 'it works on the street but not in a cage because reasons' non argument.


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## Martial D (Apr 3, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> So you are basing this on observation and opinion then and claiming it to be proven time and time again. Albeit you may be correct, but you are basing the "time and time again" statement on your opinion based on your observation of the few you have seen. Which by the way is not proof.


As an addendum to my last post, you might have forgotten that I AM a WC guy, since the 90s. I was initially trained just like most other WC guys, with a ton of forms, chi sau, and drills. It wasn't until I added live sparring I found a way to make it 'work', it was useless out of the box. This is something I continue to work on to this day..I actually just got back from mma class. I continue to find new ways to apply it and let me tell you, it looks very little like that traditional WC I learned at the beginning and trained in for years.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2018)

Martial D said:


> And the preponderance of all of the recorded footage of such would indicate what? Time and Time again?
> 
> You didn't answer my question. Do you believe the bulk of WC training involves live sparring or that it doesn't? And if you think that it does, where is the evidence that it works?
> 
> Call me a jerk if you want, but I'm just not having the 'it works on the street but not in a cage because reasons' non argument.



You may want to read my post again, especially the now bolded and underlined section



Xue Sheng said:


> So you are basing this on observation and opinion then and claiming it to be proven time and time again. *Albeit you may be correct*, but you are basing the "time and time again" statement on your opinion based on your observation of the few you have seen. Which by the way is not proof.



I did not call you a jerk, I do not want to argue but you are looking at videos and you have seen things in class and it still boils down to "you are right because you say you are".... if you had done a scientific study on this and then produced your findings...well then you could say "Proof"

Like I originally said in my original post to the OP...train JKD. If one does not like, or is not happy with Wing Chun and its way of training, but if they still want something close to wing chun that trains the way they want....train JKD.



Martial D said:


> As an addendum to my last post, you might have forgotten that I AM a WC guy, since the 90s. I was initially trained just like most other WC guys, with a ton of forms, chi sau, and drills. It wasn't until I added live sparring I found a way to make it 'work', it was useless out of the box. This is something I continue to work on to this day..I actually just got back from mma class. I continue to find new ways to apply it and let me tell you, it looks very little like that traditional WC I learned at the beginning and trained in for years.



Did not forget, did not know, and to be honest did not care......

Don't doubt what you are finding in MMA, found similar things about Xingyiquan from my little bit of training of JKD. But I also learned an awful lot in a cross style sparing group I was part of in the early 90s

Bottom-line here is that it seems to me, and maybe I am reading more into your statements that you have made...I feel that you want to argue, I don't, sorry.


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## Martial D (Apr 4, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> You may want to read my post again, especially the now bolded and underlined section
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, proof is the exclusive realm of math and hard liquor, science is done by weighing evidence.

You could easily falsify what I said too. Show me a school, anywhere, of any style..doesn't have to be WC, that produces people that can fight without doing any sort of sparring. Just one counter example is all you would need.

Second, JKD isn't Wing Chun. I honestly find it weird that you would say 'go do jkd if you don't like wing chun' when I didn't say anything about not liking Wing Chun. What I don't like is that my beloved art has become a joke in the ma community because it gets hyped up as something it usually isn't..and not because of composition but because of ineffective training methods.

As for 'feelings' I feel your last post was unnecessarilly defensive. Why is that? Do you practice WC? Do you feel effective WC fighters can be produced by doing forms and chi sau?

You say you don't want to argue but it was you that responded to me initially, with an argument.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2018)

Martial D said:


> First, proof is the exclusive realm of math and hard liquor, science is done by weighing evidence.
> 
> You could easily falsify what I said too. Show me a school, anywhere, of any style..doesn't have to be WC, that produces people that can fight without doing any sort of sparring. Just one counter example is all you would need.
> 
> ...



But I was not responding to you, I was responding to the OP ,macher, and you responded to that post

Your not following what I said, that or you are intentionally making accusation  in a attempt to escalate this to an argument. Arguments are worthless, they are 1, 2 or more people attempting to force their opinions down the throat of others and they generally get nowhere. A discussion is much more productive, it is generally folks trying to learn...

And I never said "you" Martial D should go for JKD. I said this



Xue Sheng said:


> *Like I originally said in my original post to the OP...train JKD*. If one does not like, or is not happy with Wing Chun and its way of training, but if they still want something close to wing chun that trains the way they want....train JKD.



The rest of that goes into if you like something similar to Wing Chun then JKD. That is all... It all goes to the OP...what you do is all up to you. You want MMA, awesome you don't want JKD...that's cool too..

And if you would read what I have been posting, without hostility and without attempting to start an argument, you would see that I have been, for the most part, agreeing with  you.....


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## PiedmontChun (Apr 4, 2018)

geezer said:


> Yep. That's pretty much how our club is. The students are older guys and some have health concerns -- for example one is a heart transplant recipient. They want something more "punchy-fighty" than typical tai chi, but they don't really want to fight. And (this part kinda confuses me) no one like to grapple or do WC sweeps throws. Wierd, because that stuff can be really fun.
> 
> Oh well. It's the group we have, and with going on sixty-three and half crippled with old injuries, I accept that. At least I have another 62-year-old crippled training partner I do escrima with who _does_ like to mix it up. When I come limping home all beat up, my wife doesn't understand why I'm smiling.


Agreed. A senior student I trained with in WT was a prior Karate practitioner, from a *very* hard style of karate. In his older age (almost 60 years old and semi-retired), he liked WT/WC because it focused on relaxed force and developing some springiness, challenged him in a very different way. He would spar with us too, but dialed back a bit for his age. Some guys were eager to spar harder and do ground work stuff when the subject came up though.

My thoughts to the *OP* could be summed as _"You might be right about Wing Chun in some sense, but you haven't earned having a qualified opinion on it"._ It just makes no sense have confidence in your opinion of an art or its perceived weaknesses without actually trying it. Its putting the cart before the horse. If your perceived weakness about the system concern you enough, then don't do it. Find another art. Don't train something you feel like you have to question or doubt every step of the way.

You honestly won't find much Wing Chun with *quality* emphasis on the ground whatsoever. If you want to train WC, then mix it up with some MMA guys for some of that, or train a grappling art at the same time, then maybe do that. But WC is a striking based system with some minor grappling components. In 19th century China it was complete. In 21th century Western world a good high school wrestler would school a TCMA artist on how to stay on their feet.


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## drop bear (Apr 4, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> Agreed. A senior student I trained with in WT was a prior Karate practitioner, from a *very* hard style of karate. In his older age (almost 60 years old and semi-retired), he liked WT/WC because it focused on relaxed force and developing some springiness, challenged him in a very different way. He would spar with us too, but dialed back a bit for his age. Some guys were eager to spar harder and do ground work stuff when the subject came up though.
> 
> My thoughts to the *OP* could be summed as _"You might be right about Wing Chun in some sense, but you haven't earned having a qualified opinion on it"._ It just makes no sense have confidence in your opinion of an art or its perceived weaknesses without actually trying it. Its putting the cart before the horse. If your perceived weakness about the system concern you enough, then don't do it. Find another art. Don't train something you feel like you have to question or doubt every step of the way.
> 
> You honestly won't find much Wing Chun with *quality* emphasis on the ground whatsoever. If you want to train WC, then mix it up with some MMA guys for some of that, or train a grappling art at the same time, then maybe do that. But WC is a striking based system with some minor grappling components. In 19th century China it was complete. In 21th century Western world a good high school wrestler would school a TCMA artist on how to stay on their feet.



So how long do you stay in a training program before you can judge if you have been wasting your time in that program?


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## pdg (Apr 4, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Arguments are worthless, they are 1, 2 or more people attempting to force their opinions down the throat of others and they generally get nowhere. A discussion is much more productive, it is generally folks trying to learn...



Well, that depends on how you define the word 'argument'...

To have a discussion with differing opinions requires one to make an argument either to support your own view or to challenge an opposing view.

An argument need not be emotional and/or heated, I have had many very productive and enjoyable arguments, and more than a few pointless debates and discussions.


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## macher (Apr 4, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> Agreed. A senior student I trained with in WT was a prior Karate practitioner, from a *very* hard style of karate. In his older age (almost 60 years old and semi-retired), he liked WT/WC because it focused on relaxed force and developing some springiness, challenged him in a very different way. He would spar with us too, but dialed back a bit for his age. Some guys were eager to spar harder and do ground work stuff when the subject came up though.
> 
> My thoughts to the *OP* could be summed as _"You might be right about Wing Chun in some sense, but you haven't earned having a qualified opinion on it"._ It just makes no sense have confidence in your opinion of an art or its perceived weaknesses without actually trying it. Its putting the cart before the horse. If your perceived weakness about the system concern you enough, then don't do it. Find another art. Don't train something you feel like you have to question or doubt every step of the way.
> 
> You honestly won't find much Wing Chun with *quality* emphasis on the ground whatsoever. If you want to train WC, then mix it up with some MMA guys for some of that, or train a grappling art at the same time, then maybe do that. But WC is a striking based system with some minor grappling components. In 19th century China it was complete. In 21th century Western world a good high school wrestler would school a TCMA artist on how to stay on their feet.



I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.


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## KPM (Apr 4, 2018)

macher said:


> I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.



The answer that question...in general....would be a solid "no."  But that is starting to change and more schools are starting to include sparring.  The problem is that they often try to go from their "classical" training right into sparring and discover they can't get it to work.  So by default they end up doing some kind of sloppy "kickboxing-ish" sparring.  Some are doing better and actually working on progressive "sparring drills" to learn how to use their Wing Chun and gradually get into "full on" sparring.  And some just start including boxing/kickboxing elements in their Wing Chun when they spar because this is more easily workable.  So, as I said before, you really just have to check out the school and see how much they emphasize sparring and how they approach it.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 4, 2018)

macher said:


> I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.


As had been already said, it depends on the school.  I’m not sure it is possible to say yes or no in general because no one knows what everyone else is doing, and it doesn’t matter.

If sparring is important to you, then find a wing chun school that is close enough that you can attend, and see what they do.  Any school that falls out of your area where you can reasonably expect to attend training, doesn’t matter one way or the other what they do.  If you cannot attend the school, if they spar it won’t help you; if they do not spar, it does not matter to you.


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## Martial D (Apr 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It is a drill. It forces people to be better fighters. So I do MMA I don't have to wrestle. I do wrestling I do have to wrestle.
> 
> I do both then I can either wrestle or not as I choose.


Ya but say you don't wrestle OR do mma, but you do mma drills and wrestling drills. What then?


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## PiedmontChun (Apr 5, 2018)

macher said:


> I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.


Some Wing Chun schools spar quite a bit, some not so much. It just can vary depending on lineage, the individual instructor, the type of students they have, etc. Whether or not they believe sparring is being necessary to develop good Wing Chun skill is a good indicator. I would be wary of instructors who believe it is not necessary. Sparring as a beginner is going to be very crude and basic, and Chi Sau will be awkward and come very slowly, but as one develops the ability to flow and react in Chi Sau, it can gradually be ramped up, become more unscripted, eventually be completely dynamic and unscripted, and the connection between Chi Sau and actual sparring becomes much more apparent.


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## macher (Apr 5, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> As had been already said, it depends on the school.  I’m not sure it is possible to say yes or no in general because no one knows what everyone else is doing, and it doesn’t matter.
> 
> If sparring is important to you, then find a wing chun school that is close enough that you can attend, and see what they do.  Any school that falls out of your area where you can reasonably expect to attend training, doesn’t matter one way or the other what they do.  If you cannot attend the school, if they spar it won’t help you; if they do not spar, it does not matter to you.



I’ll be checking out this school tomorrow...

Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters | Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 5, 2018)

geezer said:


> BTW I added the above in the interest of _honesty_. I fully support efforts to keep WC evolving and effective as a fighting art ...but I don't think the activity needs to be the exclusive domain of fighters. Yes, they should be it's heart and soul, and its "laboratory", but there is _room for everybody_ to participate ...so long as we are all honest with ourselves about what we are doing.
> 
> Everybody should recognize that there is no _magic_ to kung fu. Of course you have to fight if you want to be a fighter.



I agree with this, but I'll add that the "non-fighters" in a school have a greater chance of learning functional skills if they are interacting with, training with, and learning from actual fighters rather than just learning from a non-fighter who learned from a non-fighter who learned from a non-fighter who learned from an actual fighter 60 years ago. The lessons of experience get diluted and distorted the more you get removed from the source.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 5, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I agree with this, but I'll add that the "non-fighters" in a school have a greater chance of learning functional skills if they are interacting with, training with, and learning from actual fighters rather than just learning from a non-fighter who learned from a non-fighter who learned from a non-fighter who learned from an actual fighter 60 years ago. The lessons of experience get diluted and distorted the more you get removed from the source.



Just a question, what is your definition of a "fighter" within the context of your post? Should probably ask the same question of @geezer


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 5, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just a question, what is your definition of a "fighter" within the context of your post? Should probably ask the same question of @geezer


In the context of geezer's post that I was responding to, I took "fighter" to refer to someone who has tested their combative skills in some sort of hard contact rough-and-tumble environment. That could be someone like a LEO or bouncer, someone who has gotten into a significant number of street altercations, or a competitor in some form of full-contact martial sport, like MMA, boxing, or kickboxing.

I'd say it's really more of a spectrum than a strictly binary classification. I consider myself to be more "fighter-adjacent" then a full-fledged fighter. I've been in a few street altercations, I've fought a couple of amateur kickboxing matches in the ring. I've done some grappling competitions. I've participated in a significant number of SCA heavy weapons tournaments. That experience gives me a leg up on martial artists who have never done more than cooperative drills, but it pales in comparison to some of my training partners who have had dozens of professional fights or decades of LEO experience.


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## Danny T (Apr 5, 2018)

macher said:


> I’ve trained before for long periods of time. And the best training I got was actual sparring. I wanted to know if that’s a center point of WC in general.


In my experience sparring isn't the center point in most martial arts. I think it to be an important aspect if one wants to really know, understand, and be a competent fighter but isn't the center point. Even in most fighting schools/gyms though I know of some that is seems to the most important. People there grow very quickly to a point but don't grow much afterwards because they don't learn or work on new things or high skills. Not all martial artists nor all martial arts are about fighting though fighting moves or actions are utilized as the main premise.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 5, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just a question, what is your definition of a "fighter" within the context of your post?





Tony Dismukes said:


> In the context of geezer's post that I was responding to, I took "fighter" to refer to someone who has tested their combative skills in some sort of hard contact rough-and-tumble environment. That could be someone like a LEO or bouncer, someone who has gotten into a significant number of street altercations, or a competitor in some form of full-contact martial sport, like MMA, boxing, or kickboxing.
> 
> I'd say it's really more of a spectrum than a strictly binary classification. I consider myself to be more "fighter-adjacent" then a full-fledged fighter. I've been in a few street altercations, I've fought a couple of amateur kickboxing matches in the ring. I've done some grappling competitions. I've participated in a significant number of SCA heavy weapons tournaments. That experience gives me a leg up on martial artists who have never done more than cooperative drills, but it pales in comparison to some of my training partners who have had dozens of professional fights or decades of LEO experience.



Thank You. I was asking because there are some who only look at a "fighter" only as someone who fights in competitions in rings and on mats in controlled environments.

I agree with your definition by the way


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## KPM (Apr 5, 2018)

macher said:


> I’ll be checking out this school tomorrow...
> 
> Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters | Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters




That's a good one!  Keith Mazza is top-notch!


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## macher (Apr 5, 2018)

KPM said:


> That's a good one!  Keith Mazza is top-notch!



Oh so Mazza has a good rep in Wing Chun circles?


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## KPM (Apr 5, 2018)

macher said:


> Oh so Mazza has a good rep in Wing Chun circles?


 
Yes!  Mazza is Grandmaster Cheung's main representative in the US.  He has taught hand-to-hand tactics to military and law enforcement.  I've never met him but have seen seminar video footage.  He seems like a good teacher and very "down to earth."


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## macher (Apr 5, 2018)

KPM said:


> Yes!  Mazza is Grandmaster Cheung's main representative in the US.  He has taught hand-to-hand tactics to military and law enforcement.  I've never met him but have seen seminar video footage.  He seems like a good teacher and very "down to earth."



Thanks. Going there Saturday morning for a complimentary class. They have a lot of days and times for classes.


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## drop bear (Apr 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ya but say you don't wrestle OR do mma, but you do mma drills and wrestling drills. What then?



Depends on the drill. There is a drill we use for MMA that seems pretty good. We call it jujutsu.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 5, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Even in most fighting schools/gyms though I know of some that is seems to the most important. People there grow very quickly to a point but don't grow much afterwards because they don't learn or work on new things or high skills.


Agree and that's the issue. I have seen people who had 

- sparred for 6 years and can only do jab and cross.
- wrestled for 6 years and cannot even do a hip throw.

What's the problem here? IMO, you can only "test" your MA skill in spar/wrestle. You can't "develop" your MA skill in spar/wrestle. So spar/wrestle is not enough.

Can you accidentally make your foot sweep work in sparring if you have never trained foot sweep? I don't think so.


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## Martial D (Apr 5, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree and that's the issue. I have seen people who had
> 
> - sparred for 6 years and can only do jab and cross.
> - wrestled for 6 years and cannot even do a hip throw.
> ...



So how do you develop timing, learn to read tells and telegraph's , learn to control distance, learn to compensate for when you get those things wrong etc through cooperative drills? 

Would you say these things aren't fighting skills? I would say they are equally if not more important than techniques.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So how do you develop timing, learn to read tells and telegraph's , learn to control distance, learn to compensate for when you get those things wrong etc through cooperative drills?
> 
> Would you say these things aren't fighting skills? I would say they are equally if not more important than techniques.


What you may call

- "technique", I call it "finish strategy - how to finish a fight". For example, a punch on the face.
- "fighting skill", I call it "entering strategy - how to set up finish move". For example, use groin kick to set up a face punch.

You develop

- finish strategies through partner drills.
- entering strategies through sparring/wrestling.

For example, if you want to develop "foot sweep", during

- partner drill, your opponent will put weight on his leading leg and give you that opportunity to sweep him down.
- sparring/wrestling, your opponent will try very hard not to give you that opportunity. You then need to create that opportunity for yourself. There are many ways to bait your opponent to shift weight on his leading leg. You just cannot train all those methods in your partner drills.


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## KPM (Apr 6, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So how do you develop timing, learn to read tells and telegraph's , learn to control distance, learn to compensate for when you get those things wrong etc through cooperative drills?
> .



You do that through semi-cooperative drills.  That's what "progressive sparring" is.


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## Martial D (Apr 6, 2018)

KPM said:


> You do that through semi-cooperative drills.  That's what "progressive sparring" is.



I know what it is, but I disagree that it's going to really prepare you for anything. There's a huge difference between 'be ready for these three things' and 'be ready for anything'


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## macher (Apr 6, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So how do you develop timing, learn to read tells and telegraph's , learn to control distance, learn to compensate for when you get those things wrong etc through cooperative drills?
> 
> Would you say these things aren't fighting skills? I would say they are equally if not more important than techniques.



Years ago I practiced Bagua was in a group setting. We would practice form for the first 1/2 of class then we would spar the 2nd 1/2. We would also visit other schools of different MA’s and they would visit us for sparring sessions. His emphasis was on actual implementation of technique in real life scenarios. That you don’t have to be rigid with the form but the basic principles


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## macher (Apr 6, 2018)

Can Wing Chun ‘merge’ with boxing or visa versa? I’ve boxed and best part of boxing is sparring. Boxing with foot work etc can help you get into close range where you’ll be abble to apply Wing Chun principles.


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## KPM (Apr 6, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I know what it is, but I disagree that it's going to really prepare you for anything. There's a huge difference between 'be ready for these three things' and 'be ready for anything'



No one can "be ready for anything"!


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## KPM (Apr 6, 2018)

macher said:


> Can Wing Chun ‘merge’ with boxing or visa versa? I’ve boxed and best part of boxing is sparring. Boxing with foot work etc can help you get into close range where you’ll be abble to apply Wing Chun principles.



Well, of course!  Funny you should ask!  

Log into Facebook | Facebook      Search for "Martial Boxing Forum" on facebook if it doesn't come up for you.

Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing

Wing Chun Boxing


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## Martial D (Apr 6, 2018)

KPM said:


> No one can "be ready for anything"!


Sure you can, in the context of a fight. But to do so requires a lot of training and even more sparring/fighting.

It applies to anything really. You can't get good at anything without doing it.


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## macher (Apr 6, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, of course!  Funny you should ask!
> 
> Log into Facebook | Facebook      Search for "Martial Boxing Forum" on facebook if it doesn't come up for you.
> 
> ...



Wow the guy from Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing...


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## macher (Apr 6, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, of course!  Funny you should ask!
> 
> Log into Facebook | Facebook      Search for "Martial Boxing Forum" on facebook if it doesn't come up for you.
> 
> ...



Also similar to the way we trained when I was practicing Bagua years ago. We would practice form and show us how to apply it a fight or self defense.


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## Martial D (Apr 6, 2018)

macher said:


> Wow the guy from Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing...


What about that guy?


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## macher (Apr 6, 2018)

Martial D said:


> What about that guy?



The way he applies and tweeks CMA principles and forms with boxing.


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## Martial D (Apr 6, 2018)

macher said:


> The way he applies and tweeks CMA principles and forms with boxing.




So that was more of a 'wow he's good' rather than a 'wow he sucks'?


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## macher (Apr 6, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So that was more of a 'wow he's good' rather than a 'wow he sucks'?



Absolutely ‘wow he’s good’. Was taught  similar years ago applying Bagua form and principles. The teacher left for the West coast and have never found anything similar.


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## Martial D (Apr 6, 2018)

macher said:


> Absolutely ‘wow he’s good’. Was taught  similar years ago applying Bagua form and principles.


I'm sure he'll be happy to read that. I too think he's doing good work.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2018)

KPM said:


> No one can "be ready for anything"!


You can be ready for something, though.  Or nothing.  Those are both achievable goals.  Measurable, too.


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## KPM (Apr 6, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I'm sure he'll be happy to read that. I too think he's doing good work.



Thanks guys!   If you had seen some of the responses I get on the FB "Wing Chun Forum", you would think I was some kind of Wing Chun pariah!  ;-)


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## Martial D (Apr 6, 2018)

KPM said:


> Thanks guys!   If you had seen some of the responses I get on the FB "Wing Chun Forum", you would think I was some kind of Wing Chun pariah!  ;-)


When you find a cage comfortable, you might not like it when someone rattles it.

You know me though I'm all about that too. Rattle it till it falls apart brother.


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## drop bear (Apr 6, 2018)

KPM said:


> No one can "be ready for anything"!



Sort of. 

You can train concepts that don't require a specific situation to function.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Sort of.
> 
> You can train concepts that don't require a specific situation to function.


It's 

- easy to train how to escape an attack. All you will need is to step back. 
- not easy to train how to take advantage on an attack. You will need to understand how to borrow your opponent's force.


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## SeekGuidance (Apr 7, 2018)

macher said:


> Interesting in Wing Chun but realize that it’s best to find a school that teaches real life applications and that Wing Chun could be modified to incorporate techniques like boxing and ground fighting. I’m in the Philly area. What’s the best way to find out if a school teaches not necessarily the traditional way but more adaptable in today’s world? Thanks!


The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to learn traditional Wing Chun and incorporate it with other techniques on your own. Everyone has a different style. People may train the same martial art, but there is always tiny things that people prefer to do that suits them better than anyone. I have picked up my fighting style from incorporating techniques from everything I have learnt. Every martial has something new to teach, and the best way to pick this teaching up is from tradition, I believe.


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## macher (Apr 7, 2018)

SeekGuidance said:


> The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to learn traditional Wing Chun and incorporate it with other techniques on your own. Everyone has a different style. People may train the same martial art, but there is always tiny things that people prefer to do that suits them better than anyone. I have picked up my fighting style from incorporating techniques from everything I have learnt. Every martial has something new to teach, and the best way to pick this teaching up is from tradition, I believe.



I’d like to know how KPM teaches.


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## macher (Apr 7, 2018)

SeekGuidance said:


> The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to learn traditional Wing Chun and incorporate it with other techniques on your own. Everyone has a different style. People may train the same martial art, but there is always tiny things that people prefer to do that suits them better than anyone. I have picked up my fighting style from incorporating techniques from everything I have learnt. Every martial has something new to teach, and the best way to pick this teaching up is from tradition, I believe.



Don’t know. Depends on why you’re a practicing MA’ist. When I practiced years ago with the Bagua / boxing hybrid I wanted to learn self defense. We sparred a lot against different CMA’s and boxers. Other CMA’s were easy to beat for the most part. Boxers and Thai boxers another story.


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## SeekGuidance (Apr 7, 2018)

KPM? What is that?


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## macher (Apr 7, 2018)

SeekGuidance said:


> KPM? What is that?



That’s his username.


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## TMA17 (Apr 8, 2018)

macher said:


> I’ll be checking out this school tomorrow...
> 
> Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters | Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters



I attended Sifu Mazza's TWC school briefly (10 mins away), along with the Moy Yat school in Chinatown (15 mins away), and ended up with a private instructor that attended the Moy Yat school.  The private instruction was by far the best (no surprise there) and I got the most out of that.  I only completed SLT though, and have since moved on to other things.  He's a great Sifu IMO.  I ordered a 5 step module last week based on JKD concepts by Sifu Harrinder Sing to work on  at home.

This week I'm (yet again) trying an MMA gym out that has what I believe to be a nice kickboxing MMA program that incorporates western boxing, Muay Thai elements, wrestling and very basic BJJ that helps you get back on your feet and also avoid take downs.  His approach is all about using what is most effective in a real street fight.  He's also big on sparring.  The TWC does no sparring that I'm aware of.  Mazza's fight workshops are good.  I attended two of them.  If you'd like to know more of what I thought of each school shoot me a message.

As the good people on this site will tell you, and as you already seem to realize, you have to find your own way with this stuff and what works best for you.  It can take time.  I personally agree and like KPM's approach to mixing things with a boxing base.


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## macher (Apr 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I attended this school briefly (10 mins away), along with the Moy Yat school in Chinatown (15 mins away) and ended up with a private instructor that attended the Moy Yat school.  The private instruction was by far the best and I got the most out of that.  I only completed SLT though, and have since moved on to other things.  I ordered a 5 step module based on JKD concepts by Sifu Harrinder Sing to work on  at home.  This week I'm (yet again) trying an MMA gym out that has what I believe to be a nice kickboxing MMA program that incorporates western boxing, Muay Thai elements, wrestling and very basic BJJ that helps you get back on your feet and also avoid take downs.  His approach is all about using what is most effective in a real street fight.  He's also big on sparring.  The TWC does no sparring that I'm aware of.  Mazza's fight workshops are good.  I attended two of them.  If you'd like to know more of what I thought of each school shoot me a message.
> 
> As the good people on this site will tell you, and as you already seem to realize, is that you have to find your own way with this stuff and what works best for you.  It can take time.  I personally agree and like KPM's approach to mixing things with a boxing base.



Yes attended yesterday and there isn’t sparring but like you said Mazza has fighting work shops that aren’t part of the training in the TWC school. Definitely not a fit for me as I prefer a boxing base. I’ll shoot you a message. Thanks!


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## wingchun100 (Apr 23, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but when I talk about 'traditional' WC training I mean classes that are purely forms, chi sau and solo/cooperative drills. This, in my experience at least, seems to make up the bulk of it.



This is what the Ip Ching school I attended was like when I first joined it. Then I was absent for a while. When I came back, he had dropped the cooperative drills and did mostly forms and Chi Sao, although sometimes he would come up with a short drill to pay particular emphasis on one technique or another.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 23, 2018)

macher said:


> I’ve been watching videos on this Sifu channel and it looks like he incorporates other arts in his Wing Chun teaching. That’s what I’m looking for.
> 
> Fight SCIENCE



I like Sifu Phillips too.


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