# Wing Chun and Crosstraining



## Yoshiyahu (Feb 17, 2009)

I am curious. What do guys think would be some great complimentary styles to cross train with Wing Chun from Chinese,Japanese,Korean or Vietnamnese Martial Arts. With the exclusion of Hapkido,Aikido,Jiujitsu,Greco wrestling,Jeet Kune Do and BJJ what other styles would make a good crossfit with WC?

What styles do you think make a great crossfit with Wing Chun That come from the various people above!


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## elder999 (Feb 17, 2009)

Western boxing. Judo. Shuai jiao. Fencing. Muay Thai. Boxe Francaise. Sayoc kali-or any other Fillipino system.


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## Steve (Feb 17, 2009)

Based upon my lay understanding of WC and the concepts, I immediately thought of Sambo and Savatte.  The former for the groundwork and the latter for great outside work.  

Small circle Aikido would seem to mesh well with the concepts of WC.  

What do you think, Yoshi?  What styles do you think would mesh well, and please feel free to include any style, including those you initially chose to discount?


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## MJS (Feb 18, 2009)

You are now entering the Twilight Zone.:erg:  Haven't we been down this road before?

Sigh...for the sake of the thread, I'll toss in my .02, for what its worth.  I'll start with the obvious, which is a grappling art.  This could be ANY grappling art, so please don't assume I'm talking about one thing in particular.  The grappling, because IMO, it'll enhance WCs methods of dealing with someone on the ground.  WC, IIRC, has alot of sensitivity drills.  Grappling can be done with your eyes closed, which will force you to rely on your sense of touch, rather than sight.  

My next pick would be the Filipino arts.  Kali, Arnis, Sayoc, PT, etc.  I say this, because these are all weapon based systems.  Yes, they do have empty hand material, but there is alot of stick and blade use.  This will enhance WC, because IMO, it will open up a new way of looking at those weapons and how they can be used.


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## Hand Sword (Feb 18, 2009)

Holy deja Vu Batman! The same topic from the same poster, who had many honest and open answers given to them on this subject. I would really love to know Yoshi's real angle about this topic and be done with this tip toeing around and BSing! I mean enough is enough IMHO.

Yoshi, if you're interested in other arts (which I think by these posts you are deep down), it's ok. Go ahead and try them out. Try mixing and matching. You never know what you'll find out. If, after it all, you don't find an interest-that's ok too. You don't have to stop your WC training.

Now, that's as straight forward of an answer you can get. Anything else from you is arguing for arguing sake.


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm just going to annoy him and say that you definately have to have BJJ
100%. If you don't train BJJ with your wing chun you will die
That is fact


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## Hand Sword (Feb 18, 2009)

Are you ready.....(pointing to the other side) ......Are you ready?.......LET'S GET IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:boxing:


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## Sandstorm (Feb 18, 2009)

:lfao:


Kamon Guy said:


> I'm just going to annoy him and say that you definately have to have BJJ
> 100%. If you don't train BJJ with your wing chun you will die
> That is fact


 
That raised a laugh.
I would go for the Filipino arts too. Kali/Arnis. A grappling art would obviously benefit, but suggesting that is like walking across a minefield.


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## Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> I'm just going to annoy him and say that you definately have to have BJJ
> 100%. If you don't train BJJ with your wing chun you will die
> That is fact


This is all true.


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## AceHBK (Feb 18, 2009)

Not this same topic again!?!??!?!
There are already too many threads on this.

I say go and try and see what works best for you.  Heck with asking, just go see for yaself.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

Very Very interesting guys. The Criticism is spectular. But I expect that from some. I really Enjoyed elder999 first post. Great response. I also felt the second part of MJS post was right on target of this thread to certain extent. Also sandstorm raised some pretty interesting ideas concerning the filipino arts? I see them as making use of common weapons that could be used in west. Outside of the traditional more lethal Chinese combat weapons.

Outside of grappling and Shuai jiao.

what other arts do you think would mesh well with WC in your opinion?

I want to hear from the opening minded people. Not close minded ones who only see WC as meshing with two arts only. So share. Also what other Chinese MAs do you feel that WC would be compatible with in your opinion?

I enjoy everyones feed back very entertaining.


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## bs10927 (Feb 18, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> I'm just going to annoy him and say that you definately have to have BJJ
> 100%. If you don't train BJJ with your wing chun you will die
> That is fact



but it's not pretty to look at.   lol


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## Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Very Very interesting guys. The Criticism is spectular. But I expect that from some. I really Enjoyed elder999 first post. Great response. I also felt the second part of MJS post was right on target of this thread to certain extent. Also sandstorm raised some pretty interesting ideas concerning the filipino arts? I see them as making use of common weapons that could be used in west. Outside of the traditional more lethal Chinese combat weapons.
> 
> Outside of grappling and Shuai jiao.
> 
> ...


What about my post?  I'm hurt!


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## bs10927 (Feb 18, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> What about my post?  I'm hurt!



nice.  real nice guys... anyone? anyone? [crickets]
lol :lol2:


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## bs10927 (Feb 18, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> What about my post?  I'm hurt!




....and may i suggest a Kwan Dao?


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

Okay steve what about your post



*Well I said earlier*



> am curious. What do guys think would be some great complimentary styles to cross train with Wing Chun from Chinese,Japanese,Korean or Vietnamnese Martial Arts. With the exclusion of Hapkido,*Aikido*,Jiujitsu,Greco wrestling,Jeet Kune Do and BJJ what other styles would make a good crossfit with WC?
> 
> What styles do you think make a great crossfit with Wing Chun That come from the various people above!
> __________________


 

You made mention of Aikido. But I want to know more about the other two arts you mention...Sambo and Savatte. What do they intel. What are the concepts. What are the principals. 

Why do you feel Savatte and Sambo mesh well with WC. Also please feel free to share any Chinese arts other than Shuai jiao that you feel will mesh well with Wing Chun I look forward to hearing from you. 

Sorry for the hurt.



stevebjj said:


> Based upon my lay understanding of WC and the concepts, I immediately thought of Sambo and Savatte. The former for the groundwork and the latter for great outside work.
> 
> Small circle* Aikido* would seem to mesh well with the concepts of WC.
> 
> What do you think, Yoshi? What styles do you think would mesh well, and please feel free to include any style, including those you initially chose to discount?


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

As for Wing Chun I don't think it would die with out BJJ. Wing Chun predates Brazilian Jiujitsu. It also has more of interest than other arts. WC I can stand to practice. An art can only grow if you have a real interest or desire of fighting with it. If you do not that art will be useless. You can train an art because people say its useful or you need this to make your WC better. But if you think that art is crap it will never work. Its like me saying you need to learn TKD to make your grappling better. If you dislike TKD for various reasons even if you took the class you would not excel because you have no desire to learn the art. It would be worthless to you. 

But this is my opinion. Thats why I didn't practice Martial Arts until I got into high school Because there were no arts I knew of that I would have enjoyed. But now that is grown an have searched I go right too what I am interested in. I mean it depends on how you want to spend your money. But this is my mere opinion. I don't know anything. I am just a simple guy.


But WC has existed long before BJJ...An it will exist even after BJJ is not the hype. An even if WC did die. I would simple find another Chinese Striking Art that I like. Such as Crane,Snake,Pei Mei or Bak Mei or something else. An train that for another 16 years. I may even take up Hung Gar. Thats something that has always interest me as kid. Second there was hard karate. But thats just me.





Kamon Guy said:


> I'm just going to annoy him and say that you definately have to have BJJ
> 100%. If you don't train BJJ with your wing chun you will die
> That is fact


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## Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Sambo is a Russian martial art that is, like BJJ, a derivative of Judo.  Lots of good groundfighting technique, leg locks, throws and submissions.

Savatte is a French Martial art that is pretty cool.  I'm not an expert, but I've enjoyed what I've seen.  Check it out.


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## Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> As for Wing Chun I don't think it would die with out BJJ. Wing Chun predates Brazilian Jiujitsu. It also has more of interest than other arts. WC I can stand to practice. An art can only grow if you have a real interest or desire of fighting with it. If you do not that art will be useless. You can train an art because people say its useful or you need this to make your WC better. But if you think that art is crap it will never work. Its like me saying you need to learn TKD to make your grappling better. If you dislike TKD for various reasons even if you took the class you would not excel because you have no desire to learn the art. It would be worthless to you.
> 
> But this is my opinion. Thats why I didn't practice Martial Arts until I got into high school Because there were no arts I knew of that I would have enjoyed. But now that is grown an have searched I go right too what I am interested in. I mean it depends on how you want to spend your money. But this is my mere opinion. I don't know anything. I am just a simple guy.
> 
> ...


Actually, WC is newer than BJJ.  WC as taught today is very young, but I thought Wing Chun was really only going back to the middle 1800s.  If you consider Yip Man Wing Chun to be a derivative of older Wing Chun, BJJ is actually MUCH older than WC as it is a direct descendent of traditional Japanese Jujutsu.


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## skinters (Feb 18, 2009)

stevebjj

your spending an awfull lot of time in our little wingchun forum.

you sure you not on the change :wink2:


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## Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

skinters said:


> stevebjj
> 
> your spending an awfull lot of time in our little wingchun forum.
> 
> you sure you not on the change :wink2:


LOL. skinters, let me assure you that there's nothing nefarious going on. I am guilty of pressing the "New Posts" button and often forget which forum I'm in.

For what it's worth, I will say I do like the idea of WC and wouldn't mind getting together with friendly people in my area to trade ideas. 

EDIT:  Also, in my defense, I don't bring BJJ up unless it's brought up to me (or specifically posting in the BJJ/Grappling subforums).


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## Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

bs10927 said:


> ....and may i suggest a kwan dao?


lol.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

How is Savatte different from Sambo and BJJ?



stevebjj said:


> Sambo is a Russian martial art that is, like BJJ, a derivative of Judo. Lots of good groundfighting technique, leg locks, throws and submissions.
> 
> Savatte is a French Martial art that is pretty cool. I'm not an expert, but I've enjoyed what I've seen. Check it out.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

Wing Chun goes back to Shaolin Temple and is direct descendant of Crane and Snake Boxing.


BJJ is fairly new as it is taught today. it originated from Judo and Jujutsu. But JJJ is not BJJ...There is a difference. The Gracies have modified the BJJ to fit their situtations so they could fight with it.


So BJJ is fairly new.


like the late 1900's.


But good try.

My Lineage is not Yip Man by the way....




stevebjj said:


> Actually, WC is newer than BJJ. WC as taught today is very young, but I thought Wing Chun was really only going back to the middle 1800s. If you consider Yip Man Wing Chun to be a derivative of older Wing Chun, BJJ is actually MUCH older than WC as it is a direct descendent of traditional Japanese Jujutsu.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> How is Savatte different from Sambo and BJJ?


 
From what I understand savate is the french art of foot fighting , they use a lot of long range kicks with the toes , which target soft areas like the inner calf muscles .

 They use the toes because the people who fought with this style were mostly sailors who wore heavy boots , I've read that in the old days there were quite a few encounters between english boxers and french savateurs as they are known I can't remember what the outcomes were .

 But after their exposure to english boxers they started adding the boxing hands to it , some of the throws and takedowns that I have seen are quite gymnastic in nature . I think Sambo and BJJ are different in that they are mostly concerned with what happens after the fight hits the ground .


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## Hand Sword (Feb 18, 2009)

Yoshi! What are your thoughts, since you're the OP'er? All you give is question after question, even after they've been answered multiple times. Give us your opininion on the subject you're asking about. :asian:


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

I think Savatte is very interesting...I am greatful to all the knowledge that has been shared.





Hand Sword said:


> Yoshi! What are your thoughts, since you're the OP'er? All you give is question after question, even after they've been answered multiple times. Give us your opininion on the subject you're asking about. :asian:


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## Hand Sword (Feb 18, 2009)

Ok. Great! Now how about your thoughts on WC and Crosstraining, as the thread asks?


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 19, 2009)

I think a Wing Chun Figther who has been studing WC for some years could benefit from cross training maybe Karate or Tae Kwon Do.

But this is my mere humble opinion.




Hand Sword said:


> Ok. Great! Now how about your thoughts on WC and Crosstraining, as the thread asks?


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## bs10927 (Feb 19, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> From what I understand savate is the french art of foot fighting , they use a lot of long range kicks with the toes , which target soft areas like the inner calf muscles .
> 
> They use the toes because the people who fought with this style were mostly sailors who wore heavy boots , I've read that in the old days there were quite a few encounters between english boxers and french savateurs as they are known I can't remember what the outcomes were .
> 
> But after their exposure to english boxers they started adding the boxing hands to it , some of the throws and takedowns that I have seen are quite gymnastic in nature . I think Sambo and BJJ are different in that they are mostly concerned with what happens after the fight hits the ground .




savat also uses a similar wing chun kick.


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## bs10927 (Feb 19, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I think Savatte is very interesting...I am greatful to all the knowledge that has been shared.



:duh:


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Wing Chun goes back to Shaolin Temple and is direct descendant of Crane and Snake Boxing.


 
That&#8217;s HIGHLY debatable and even people like Ip Chun are not as sure about that as you appear to be

As to Wing Chun and Cross training again I ask why and as many have already said we seem to have been down this road many many times before, but why limit yourself to MA. Try cross training with Yoga to gain more strength and flexibility or just go to a gym and workout with weights or do body weight exercises. 

But if you insist on going MA and want a compliment, and I will say I am no longer exactly sure what you mean by a compliment, but you might best approach this from the POV of what you think is lacking in Wing Chun and then look for arts that cover that aspect.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 19, 2009)

Well as for what WC may be lacking. I wouldnt say that. 

I look at what I feel I am lacking...

If its flexibilty and strength I would take up karate. So I could learn how to do a chinese split like a karate guy.


If I felt I needed more light skills or speed than I might take up boxing. 


If I felt I was lacking in powerful kicks than I would take TKD or TSD. But this is my point of view. I like your point of view from the Yoga concept. But as for me. I never met anyone who practice yoga who was as flexibe as me. I have met ballet dancers who were very flexible. So I think if It was non-martial arts it would be ballet just for the stretching. But I would never wear those tights. So you won't find me enrolling in ballet no time soon.

I remmeber there were several guys who said they did Yoga. But when I asked them to show me a split of sit in a full lotus. They could do so.

But I am glad you shared about body weight training,weights,and yoga.

I think Yoga and Hindu Body Weight exercises are cool An beneficial for you if you ever needed to work out with out weights and what not. I saw some videos of Hindu exercises impressive.

Question Xue Sheng I have heard and read that Shaolin gung fu came from India? Do you agree?



Xue Sheng said:


> Thats HIGHLY debatable and even people like Ip Chun are not as sure about that as you appear to be
> 
> As to Wing Chun and Cross training again I ask why and as many have already said we seem to have been down this road many many times before, but why limit yourself to MA. Try cross training with Yoga to gain more strength and flexibility or just go to a gym and workout with weights or do body weight exercises.
> 
> But if you insist on going MA and want a compliment, and I will say I am no longer exactly sure what you mean by a compliment, but you might best approach this from the POV of what you think is lacking in Wing Chun and then look for arts that cover that aspect.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Question Xue Sheng I have heard and read that Shaolin gung fu came from India? Do you agree?


 
Nope I do not believe it came from India. Buddhism Yes, Shaolin Kung Fu no.

That is a reference to Da Mo which, as far as I can tell and as far as several Chinese historians can tell, is a myth. There was a lot of CMA prior to Shaolin and it is highly likely that got picked up and changed by monks and later became Shaolin Kung Fu.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 19, 2009)

Where do you believe Gung Fu came from?





Xue Sheng said:


> Nope I do not believe it came from India. Buddhism Yes, Shaolin Kung Fu no.
> 
> That is a reference to Da Mo which, as far as I can tell and as far as several Chinese historians can tell, is a myth. There was a lot of CMA prior to Shaolin and it is highly likely that got picked up and changed by monks and later became Shaolin Kung Fu.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Where do you believe Gung Fu came from?


 
Necessity in China.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 19, 2009)

Okay who in china inventing gung fu?





Xue Sheng said:


> Necessity in China.


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## mook jong man (Feb 19, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Okay who in china inventing gung fu?


 
I'm pretty sure it was Michelle Yeoh , she founded the art of Bow Chicka Wow Wow.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 19, 2009)

Excellent idea...so true..




mook jong man said:


> I'm pretty sure it was Michelle Yeoh , she founded the art of Bow Chicka Wow Wow.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 20, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Okay who in china inventing gung fu?


 
A guy named Ping....

Come on, do you honestly believe it was one guy? It was out of a need for survival and it was multiple people

Read The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts and you will get a good idea of where it came form and why



mook jong man said:


> I'm pretty sure it was Michelle Yeoh , she founded the art of Bow Chicka Wow Wow.


 
Oh man now you did it... you just had to bring up Michelle Yeoh didn't you.

I mean I would not have mentioned Michelle Yeoh but you went and posted Michelle Yeoh in your post...which by the way the OPs post had nothing to do with Michelle Yeoh in the first place.

So in the future should you decide to interject Michelle Yeoh into the conversation please be aware that I am likely to do this whole Michelle Yeoh thing all over again


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## Steve (Feb 20, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> A guy named Ping....
> 
> Come on, do you honestly believe it was one guy?


Everyone knows that it wasn't just one guy.  It was Ping and his brother, Ling.





> So in the future should you decide to interject Michelle Yeoh into the conversation please be aware that I am likely to do this whole Michelle Yeoh thing all over again


Michelle Yeoh?  Who's that?


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 20, 2009)

Whats wrong with Michelle Yeoh she is a pretty good kung fu pretender.




Xue Sheng said:


> A guy named Ping....
> 
> Come on, do you honestly believe it was one guy? It was out of a need for survival and it was multiple people
> 
> ...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 20, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Everyone knows that it wasn't just one guy. It was Ping and his brother, Ling.Michelle Yeoh? Who's that?


 
Another one :disgust:

I simply do not understand what Michelle Yeoh has to do with any of this... you would not see me bringing in Michelle Yeoh to a conversation that had absolutely nothing to do with Michelle Yeoh... although it could be argues since Michelle Yeoh did the movie Wing Chun so that just about any Wing Chun Theard/Post could be associated with Michelle Yeoh





Yoshiyahu said:


> Whats wrong with Michelle Yeoh she is a pretty good kung fu pretender.


 
DON'T be DISSIN Michelle Yeoh


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 20, 2009)

Who was dissing Michelle Yeoh? I loved her WC movie. I don't understand why people don't like her WC techs in the movie. She did a good job in pretending to be a real WC fighter.




Xue Sheng said:


> Another one :disgust:
> 
> I simply do not understand what Michelle Yeoh has to do with any of this... you would not see me bringing in Michelle Yeoh to a conversation that had absolutely nothing to do with Michelle Yeoh... although it could be argues since Michelle Yeoh did the movie Wing Chun so that just about any Wing Chun Theard/Post could be associated with Michelle Yeoh
> 
> ...


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## Hagakure (Feb 20, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Another one :disgust:
> 
> I simply do not understand what Michelle Yeoh has to do with any of this... you would not see me bringing in Michelle Yeoh to a conversation that had absolutely nothing to do with Michelle Yeoh... although it could be argues since Michelle Yeoh did the movie Wing Chun so that just about any Wing Chun Theard/Post could be associated with Michelle Yeoh
> 
> ...


 
So, erm,... You like Michelle Yeoh then eh? Instead of Hammer time, we could have "Yeoh time"?  She's ok. I prefer Zhang Ziyi, that girl's a walking minx.

Back on track. Ahem. Wing Chun and Judo could be handy in a scrap...?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 20, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Who was dissing Michelle Yeoh? I loved her WC movie. I don't understand why people don't like her WC techs in the movie. She did a good job in pretending to be a real WC fighter.


 
At the risk of getting myself in a whole lot of trouble with my (much) better half I do believe I will stop with the Michelle Yeoh posts for now&#8230;. I&#8217;m not saying that I will not Michelle Yeoh again just for today I am done.

Back to the topic and my previous, pre- Michelle Yeoh, stuff 

Do you honestly believe it was one guy? It was out of a need for survival and it was multiple people

Read The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts and you will get a good idea of where it came form and why

Chinese Martial arts appeared as something necessary for survival and it encompasses much more than just empty than hand forms we tend to think about when we think Chinese martial arts. There is another post here about all CMA coming from Shaolin, actually I believe there are a few, and in that I reference Shuaijiao which is Chinese and considerably older than Shaolin and that is just one of the many that came before Shaolin and Shaolin Monks were training CMA pretty much from the get go and Da Mo had nothing to do with it.
 



Hagakure said:


> So, erm,... You like Michelle Yeoh then eh? Instead of Hammer time, we could have "Yeoh time"?  She's ok. I prefer Zhang Ziyi, that girl's a walking minx.
> 
> Back on track. Ahem. Wing Chun and Judo could be handy in a scrap...?


 
DON'T get me started again 

I have thought for sometime that Judo and Wing Chun would be a great match as would Wing Chun and Shuaijiao but then I fully believe that Wing Chun trained correctly with a knowledgeable Sifu is all one really needs but then I feel that way about a lot of MA styles


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 20, 2009)

okay keep the wife happy.



Xue Sheng said:


> At the risk of getting myself in a whole lot of trouble with my (much) better half I do believe I will stop with the Michelle Yeoh posts for now. Im not saying that I will not Michelle Yeoh again just for today I am done.
> 
> Back to the topic and my previous, pre- Michelle Yeoh, stuff
> 
> ...


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