# Meth



## thardey (Aug 23, 2007)

Hey, I got a question for those who have experience with this stuff --

Meth use is growing around here like crazy. Like, scary crazy. Our local sheriff said recently that it's a much bigger problem than Marijuana.

I went and visited the "Oregon Meth Watch" sites, and the PSA stuff about it, and it warns about the dangers of taking, and getting hooked on meth, but it doesn't say how to deal with people who are high on meth.

My wife knows someone who was killed by his son, who was high, and a member of her extended family is gone for weeks at a time, completely hooked on the stuff. I've read that it's a stimulant, that it produces paranoia, and shorts out the pain receptors, so that if you're high, you don't have the usual restraints to how hard you can push yourself.

How does one best survive an encounter with a paranoid person, who's on meth? Can you tell? Can you calm them down somehow?

Right now, this is rapidly becoming the most likely confrontation I'll run into. What's the best way to de-escalate, and get out of the situation with my own skin, and my family's?


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 23, 2007)

Pupil size, figity, iritable, calming them down is rarely possible. I've always found that redirection is the key, but then again that was when I was the same age, of a similar crowd (aka, I was a metal-head black leather long hair).

If one of these freaks goes postal on you, break them, this isn't a subdue time this is fighting like your life depends on it, because it very well could. 

There is a false sense of 'godlike power' that these people get along with an almost cruelity, a very bad combination thats then mixed with a urge to just 'go'.

It does depend on 'how much' they're on it, but without being around those types I don't see how anyone would safely gauge that. I've known these people, I've seen them, and my response (should they not respond to the usual 'it's ok man, I didn't mean to say that etc etc' speech) would be very violent.


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## thardey (Aug 23, 2007)

Dave Leverich said:


> Pupil size, figity, iritable, calming them down is rarely possible. I've always found that redirection is the key, but then again that was when I was the same age, of a similar crowd (aka, I was a metal-head black leather long hair).



pupils dilated or constricted?



> If one of these freaks goes postal on you, break them, this isn't a subdue time this is fighting like your life depends on it, because it very well could.



Yeah, I know what to do once it gets to this point. I'm hoping to avoid this point in the first place. That's where I'm training for shutting systems down ASAP, (Sight, Oxygen, Gross motor skills, Balance - you can't fight without those.) rather than "pain compliance" since they don't feel pain.



> There is a false sense of 'godlike power' that these people get along with an almost cruelity, a very bad combination thats then mixed with a urge to just 'go'.
> 
> It does depend on 'how much' they're on it, but without being around those types I don't see how anyone would safely gauge that. I've known these people, I've seen them, and my response (should they not respond to the usual 'it's ok man, I didn't mean to say that etc etc' speech) would be very violent.



Is there any kind of triggers that set them off generally? Raising your hands, stepping toward them, raising your voice? Some of the things that have been traditionally taught to "talk down" an attacker (pointing your finger, speaking with authority, acting slightly unstable, pacing) don't seem like a good idea when dealing with a paranoid person.

I didn't know about the cruelty factor. I had hoped that appearing calm and apologetic might calm them down, but would that encourage them that you're now a "target"?


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 23, 2007)

Pupils dilated.

http://www.iir.com/centf/guide.htm

Some good info on that site. As far as the pain thing, I don't recall that as much as with people on dust, those ones you just avoided eye contact and stayed the hell away from.

I'd say treat them like an aggressive, agitated, large dog, who has an attitude. Aka, very carefully. I don't think one can actually prepare for it, I know that even knowing what I know about people on that, I'd still be tense and very much unsure of what would make them go off.

Granted, most people who are on Meth aren't nuts or psycho's, just way too damned hyper. It was originally a diet aid in the 70's (at least speed started there). 

Again, I'm not sure it's a situation you can actually prepare for. You can train yourself to be aware of the signs though, with the pupils, skin, figity etc etc. And steer clear of them before it ever gets interpersonal.


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## michaeledward (Aug 23, 2007)

I heard a Terry Gross interview a month or so back on Meth. I was surprised to learn that it was just another name for 'speed'. From that interview, it was reported that speed has been around since at least the 40's. It was one of the ways motorcycle gangs raised money. 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12350220



> _Fresh Air from WHYY, _July 30, 2007 · Gonzo journalist Frank Owen, author of _Clubland: The Fabulous Rise and Murderous Fall of Club Culture,_ has turned his attention to the history of the drug methamphetamine  and he went on a four-day meth binge as part of his reporting. The book is titled _No Speed Limit: The Highs and Lows of Meth_.


 

Of course, this will not help with defense against a drug crazed person. 

Sorry, can't help there.


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 23, 2007)

Dave Leverich said:


> Granted, most people who are on Meth aren't nuts or psycho's, just way too damned hyper. It was originally a diet aid in the 70's (at least speed started there).




This is very true. I lived in the northeast mountains of Tennessee for 10 years. The number of meth labs in that area is absolutely unbelievable. My sister, who is 16 years younger than I, was addicted. I didn't know. I mean, I knew she was on _something, _she was looked like **** and was skinny as hell. Didn't take care of her daughter...etc., my parents took care of her daughter. 

But, for all intents and purposes, you wouldn't know she was a *meth head*. The one give-away was "jawing". People on meth "jaw", it's not tooth grinding, they kind of work their jaw around in an odd circular motion, mouth open. She wasn't hostile, she wasn't violent..she was just...weird. By the time she got herself off of it I never suspected meth, and I am not oblivious to drug use. She told me about her addiction and how she ran away to get away from it. She took a trip to Oregon, with her then boyfriend, where she'd have no access to known supply. However, even though she no longer does meth, she still "jaws", and yes, I know she is truly clean. 

You never can really tell, outside the obvious person who is out of control on a substance, who is actually doing this stuff. Anyone on drugs is going to unpredictable, you really won't know what you're dealing with, you just need to prepare for the worst and avoid anyone that appears to be a danger under the influence.


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## shesulsa (Aug 24, 2007)

I encountered an alcoholic who used speed in small amounts to sober up enough for evening activities.  Very subtle - looked like the person was chewing gum but when asked for a piece told others it was the last piece they had ... three days in a row.

Meth addicts will stop at nothing to get their drug and are very manipulative.  Stay away.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 24, 2007)

Dave Leverich said:


> Pupil size, figity, iritable, calming them down is rarely possible. I've always found that redirection is the key, but then again that was when I was the same age, of a similar crowd (aka, I was a metal-head black leather long hair).
> 
> If one of these freaks goes postal on you, break them, this isn't a subdue time this is fighting like your life depends on it, because it very well could.
> 
> ...




While I understand your comments I have to give some feedback. 

I helped an officer try to restrain a person on meth. I was about 240 at the time. He was about 150 with clothes and shoes. I had him on his face on the asphalt, I had his arm pinned behind his back. I had his arm secured and in a wrist lock. He just looked over his left shoulder, with the arm that was pinned. He said "**** you" and lifted me off the ground while his wrist just snapped from the mass of my body. He continued to fight. I was able to tell the officer to call for help and rolled him over on top of me where once he saw the wide open blue sky he relaxed. The officer called for back up and leaned back in over us. The fight was back on. As the police came rolling in "HOT", I rolled into a ball and staid still. I did not want to be shot for helping an officer. The officer was able to identify me as helping him, but I staid put, just in case. (* I almost had been run over by one police car as they were pulling into theparking lot. *) 

*The only way they got him to stop, and be able to retrain him was to have an officer stand on his head and grind it into the pavement. (* NOTE: before anyone thinks this was over the top, he had already bittne three cops multiple times. He had also punched and kicked many of them. They had to as well as did I, pull and peel his hands off of their firearms while in their holsters. This guys was over the top. *)*

The amount of violence needed, is not what many are capable of doing on a moments notice. Having been in places where violence was the only solution, I was theone who called the police in the first place as I saw his condition. I even advised the police officer to his condition. He got him outside where the fight broke out. 

Please, understand the *LEVEL* of violence that would be or is required in this case. It is not just punching them in the face.  If you attack their sight, the might still fight just trying to survive. If you attack thier oxygen you had better be in a totally complete superior position so as they cannot attack back with teeth or finger gouges themselves. Balance is note really an issue here, as they do not have any to begin with, they are just there. The lack of balance though is made up with the point of contact and the un-ending strength they have. 

I know I rolled and tried to restrain and assist the officer to restrain for a couple of minutes after his wrist was broken. He still moved his fingers, and it was more but tactile contact the conscious movement. 

Good luck and I hope that no one ever has to have contact with some one like this.


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## LawDog (Aug 24, 2007)

During Meth or roid rage, uses tend to act the same. I have encountered many while they were in the rage stage. There are a few mistake's that many will make while engaging someone who is in this state.
1) Impacting, many will try to inflict damage / pain on someone who is in the rage stage. They do not feel the pain and this will not slow them down. In most cases this will cause the reverse, it will make them even more hyper.
2) Restraining, many will try to hold a restraining technique on someone who is in a rage stage. They are to strong for the average person, instead use what is known as fluid restraining / suppression. As the suspect begins to break out of one restraining technique, let him, then flow with his direction into another restraining position.
As you are appling a fluid restraining technique talk calmly to the suspect, tell him to relax, calm down etc. This may sound strange to a few but this verbal communication will usually work, they will start to calm down. That is unless some outside influence, like a friend or spectator, gets the suspect riled up again.
I hope that no one has to endure any situation like this.
:knight:


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## Drac (Aug 24, 2007)

LawDog said:


> During Meth or roid rage, uses tend to act the same. I have encountered many while they were in the rage stage. There are a few mistake's that many will make while engaging someone who is in this state.
> 1) Impacting, many will try to inflict damage / pain on someone who is in the rage stage. They do not feel the pain and this will not slow them down. In most cases this will cause the reverse, it will make them even more hyper.
> 2) Restraining, many will try to hold a restraining technique on someone who is in a rage stage. They are to strong for the average person, instead use what is known as fluid restraining / suppression. As the suspect begins to break out of one restraining technique, let him, then flow with his direction into another restraining position.
> As you are appling a fluid restraining technique talk calmly to the suspect, tell him to relax, calm down etc. This may sound strange to a few but this verbal communication will usually work, they will start to calm down. That is unless some outside influence, like a friend or spectator, gets the suspect riled up again.
> ...


 
Amen brother..When you actually got through one of these encounters its just plain scary..


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 24, 2007)

Great posts Lawdog and Rich.
I hadn't realized that they would be receptive to other people talking as a method to calm them. I've seen what it can do and my response.. I'm not sure, I guess it depends on if they respond to the talking, but should it have to get physical... well I think Lawdog put it best, and Rich's illustration gives an idea of what they can be capable of.
It seems Judo, Akido and Jujitsu would be effective, but again realizing the clawing, biting etc...

Anyway, the amped up meth-head is not someone I want to confront.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 24, 2007)

Dave Leverich said:


> Great posts Lawdog and Rich.
> I hadn't realized that they would be receptive to other people talking as a method to calm them. I've seen what it can do and my response.. I'm not sure, I guess it depends on if they respond to the talking, but should it have to get physical... well I think Lawdog put it best, and Rich's illustration gives an idea of what they can be capable of.
> It seems Judo, Akido and Jujitsu would be effective, but again realizing the clawing, biting etc...
> 
> Anyway, the amped up meth-head is not someone I want to confront.




Yes, I flowed from one control or lock to another. I used physics with the minimum amount of energy to maintain control even though it was always changing so there was no real control only slwing him down and or stopping him from gaining the advantage on the officer. Lawdog's comment about going with the Flow is eactly correct. The Flow is a major fundamental of the teachings of GM Remy Presas and Modern Arnis. It is good. Not unique.


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## shesulsa (Aug 24, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Yes, I flowed from one control or lock to another. I used physics with the minimum amount of energy to maintain control even though it was always changing so there was no real control only slwing him down and or stopping him from gaining the advantage on the officer. Lawdog's comment about going with the Flow is eactly correct. The Flow is a major fundamental of the teachings of GM Remy Presas and Modern Arnis. It is good. Not unique.


As a side note, that flowing from one contain/control technique to another and another and so on is an important skill to have, especially in cases such as this.  I think there's a general mentality of finding "THE lock" or "THE tech" that stops the perp in their tracks or gets them to the ground and ends the tousle.  We've gotten great feedback from officers who were *very* skeptical about the idea of flow but once they tried it in the field under similar circumstances were grateful for the knowledge.

However, it is STILL a DANGEROUS (to say the least) undertaking, getting into it with someone on speed.  It's not something I want to ever have to do.  Props to you, Rich.


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## JBrainard (Aug 24, 2007)

Jade Tigress said:


> However, even though she no longer does meth, she still "jaws", and yes, I know she is truly clean.


 
That's common. My brother in law did meth, went clean, but still fidgets everytime he is sitting still (like when watching TV, for example).


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## Bumblebee (Aug 24, 2007)

Jade Tigress said:


> She took a trip to Oregon, with her then boyfriend, where she'd have no access to known supply.


 
I hope she didn't take the trip to where Thardey lives.


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## jks9199 (Aug 24, 2007)

I'm not going to repeat the excellent advice above...

However, I want to emphasize something:  pain holds don't work on someone not feeling or caring about pain; logic or "niceness" doesn't work on someone locked into illogic or meanness.

A pain compliance hold only works when the subject feels the pain, and submits or complies to avoid the pain.  And, if a person has reached a real irrational state, whether chemically aided or natural, they're not going to listen to reason.  A calm, controlled voice MAY sometimes calm them --  but it's not a guarantee.  (It doesn't hurt to use it though...)


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## Lynne (Aug 24, 2007)

This is an interesting and sobering thread.

I live in Tioga County, NY.  Supposedly, Tioga County has the largest amount of meth labs in NY state.  Tioga County is largely an agricultural community and much of it rural.

Oddly enough, I haven't seen anyone who I thought was on meth though I have seen some impaired individuals and don't know the reason why.  I'm sure the Sheriff's department and State Police have many tales to tell though.

BUT...what does a meth lab smell like?  Off and on, my family has smelled an odd smell. It smells like burning plastic, a little sweet with a solvent/isopropyl alcohol smell.  We've been like, "Gah...what the hell is so-and-so burning? Umm...wait, what's that solvent smell?"  We are wondering if the next door neighbor has a meth lab going.  I hate to get the police involved if they are just burning plastic tarps or something. (I don't want to smell plastic burning but it might not be illegal.)


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## CoryKS (Aug 24, 2007)

Lynne said:


> BUT...what does a meth lab smell like? Off and on, my family has smelled an odd smell. It smells like burning plastic, a little sweet with a solvent/isopropyl alcohol smell. We've been like, "Gah...what the hell is so-and-so burning? Umm...wait, what's that solvent smell?" We are wondering if the next door neighbor has a meth lab going. I hate to get the police involved if they are just burning plastic tarps or something. (I don't want to smell plastic burning but it might not be illegal.)


 
If it were me, I would call the police and report the weird smells.  If they are not doing anything illegal, there's no problem.  But you do NOT want the house next door to explode.  Meth labs are known to do that.


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## Bumblebee (Aug 24, 2007)

Not to mention that the fumes can be harmful to those exposed to it.  There's a reason why meth chefs wear masks.


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## atinsley (Aug 24, 2007)

Lynne,

Take a look at http://www.springsgov.com/Page.asp?NavID=1791; this was posted by the Metro VNI where I live.


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## thardey (Aug 24, 2007)

Yeah, Oregon is known as the "New Columbia" as far as meth goes, because of all the Meth labs here.

Notice that three of the posters in this thread so far are from Oregon. And Dave's not that far from here. And the family troubles I was talking about? Those are in Portland.


I'm glad there's a distinction between "meth users" and "hyped up meth users". There are so many here that I don't recognize, but other users, or ex-users can, in a heartbeat. I don't want to assume that anybody could just randomly trip out on me, or someone I know.

They say that meth is the number one motivation for crime here, but, like shesulsa said, they'll stop at nothing to get more. So most of the crime is aimed at getting money for more drugs, not just violence in general. (Although some of the crime is violent.) Mostly identity theft, and holding up sandwich shops at night. But then again, the news here doesn't report on most violent encounters, unless there's a good, juicy story behind it. I know the police here absolutely hate it, and it scares them.

I like the idea of the "flowing" locks in general. When we practice grappling, I've noticed that it's very rare to be able to hold someone in submission, but that you can often stay in control of them, even while they are still moving. I guess that's why it's useful to know several options for joint locks and such.


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## thardey (Aug 24, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> If it were me, I would call the police and report the weird smells.  If they are not doing anything illegal, there's no problem.  But you do NOT want the house next door to explode.  Meth labs are known to do that.




There's been a few around here (in the rural part of the community) that have done that. And "explode" is not exaggerating.


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## Lynne (Aug 24, 2007)

atinsley said:


> Lynne,
> 
> Take a look at http://www.springsgov.com/Page.asp?NavID=1791; this was posted by the Metro VNI where I live.


Thanks for the link, atinsley.  Hmm.  Well, things to do seem suspicious after reading that.  Next time I smell something weird, I'll all the Sheriff's department and note which direction the wind is coming from. (Oh, these people use their backyard as a dump - they have a big hole where they've dumped computers and stuff.  We have natural well water...)

About the house exploding comment - my neighbors aren't the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree and would probably be apt to do something r-e-a-l-l-y stupid if they're running a meth lab.

Yeah - I don't want to smell noxious/dangerous fumes either.


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## shesulsa (Aug 24, 2007)

thardey said:


> Yeah, Oregon is known as the "New Columbia" as far as meth goes, because of all the Meth labs here.


Dittos for Vancouver as well - I've been told meth is *the* biggest problem in SW Washington.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 24, 2007)

I have a new job (bartending) that requires me to discourage meth use. Once we got rid of the employees with the sores on their face, the costomers we didn't want sort of drifted away with them. The last incident I was present for involved us kicking out a group of people that looked like hell, but they just started smoking it in our parking lot, and when we caught them they just waved and smiled. We just told them the police were on the way in between profanities and they left. I suspect I get to deal with it a lot more given our location.
Sean


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 24, 2007)

Nasty stuff, no question about it.
Lock-flow (as I've always called it) seems to be a good method, but again, if they're feeling no pain... it's hard to use a pain method to control them, even breaking limbs can have less than anticipated results.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 24, 2007)

Dave Leverich said:


> Nasty stuff, no question about it.
> Lock-flow (as I've always called it) seems to be a good method, but again, if they're feeling no pain... it's hard to use a pain method to control them, even breaking limbs can have less than anticipated results.


You really have to destroy the skeletel structure in some manner. Bend his knee back the wrong way and he won't be able to support his own weight even with an heightened pain tolerance.
Sean


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 24, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> As a side note, that flowing from one contain/control technique to another and another and so on is an important skill to have, especially in cases such as this. I think there's a general mentality of finding "THE lock" or "THE tech" that stops the perp in their tracks or gets them to the ground and ends the tousle. We've gotten great feedback from officers who were *very* skeptical about the idea of flow but once they tried it in the field under similar circumstances were grateful for the knowledge.
> 
> However, it is STILL a DANGEROUS (to say the least) undertaking, getting into it with someone on speed. It's not something I want to ever have to do. Props to you, Rich.



After the police officer arrived and the guy went outside with the officer behind him. I was no longer worried. I did see the car outside still so I went outside to see if somethign was wrong. The two of them were rolling on the ground. Not wanting to step in the middle of something, I asked the officer if he needed help? He replied No. I waited about 30 more seconds and realized it really was not going well, so I asked if he wanted me to call on the phone for back-up or on his radio in the car? He then replied come over here and help me. I guess by sticking around and asking again he believed I was serious about offering help. I understand his concern of a civilian involved with a detention and or possible getting hurt. 

I do accept your kind words "G", but at the time it was not to prove I was the best or bigger, or tough, the officer needed help, and if he was a civilian or not in uniform I would not even have bothered to ask I would have just helped. It is a part of who I am. 

I agree I would not "WANT" to get involved with anyone drugged up. I would not want to leave anyone who was in danger though.


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## shesulsa (Aug 24, 2007)

Just for clarity Rich, I have no thoughts that you were trying to prove anything to anyone.


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 24, 2007)

Meth often times uses ammonia in its manufacture. Labs sometimes smell like cat piss.

The faces of meth


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## kidswarrior (Aug 24, 2007)

I'm going to go out on a limb and just post something I learned long ago without researching it for updated info. So, if it's all changed and I'm all wet, someone please just tell me. :asian:

35 years ago when I was in school to become a Navy/Marine Corpsman, we learned that adrenaline--the flight or fight 'drug' which the body produces naturally--was in reality just a natural form of 'speed.' This is why when we get mad or scared in a fight, we don't feel the pain so much at the time, and our reflexes are much faster. I think probably many would agree that the fighter who best handles this 'adrenaline dump' often has a much better chance of winning (speaking in generalities here). I've even read that for someone middle aged or older, the pre-fight adrenaline rush can actually kill them (us ), as it has a good chance of stopping the heart in an out of shape person.

My point is, if the body does this on its own in certain situations, one can imagine how man made, chemically enhanced versions could act exponentially and account for all the dire warnings and experiences in the excellent posts above.


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## jks9199 (Aug 25, 2007)

Meth labs are typically accompanied by powerful chemical smells, because the process involves lots of powerful, nasty chemicals like ether.  And meth labs are simply bombs waiting to go off...  Any more, taking one down ends up looking like a chemical warfare operation because of the dangers of the chemicals involved.

If you have ANY suspicion that there's a meth lab near you -- call the cops.  They'll do various things to investigate and confirm, and then take it down safely.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 25, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Meth labs are typically accompanied by powerful chemical smells, because the process involves lots of powerful, nasty chemicals like ether. And meth labs are simply bombs waiting to go off... Any more, taking one down ends up looking like a chemical warfare operation because of the dangers of the chemicals involved.
> 
> If you have ANY suspicion that there's a meth lab near you -- call the cops. They'll do various things to investigate and confirm, and then take it down safely.


Although fires still happen, Meth is generaly made with sulfuric and sodium hydroxide. The "Nazi Method" of using ether and what not is more dangerous and therfore less popular with cooks that have been up for three weeks.
Sean


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## Andy Moynihan (Aug 26, 2007)

Nothing I can add to what those who have posted before and "seen the elephant", except to "aim for the 'T' "--the ones who understand the slang will understand, those who don't should get the training that will cause you to know what it means.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 26, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Nothing I can add to what those who have posted before and "seen the elephant", except to "aim for the 'T' "--the ones who understand the slang will understand, those who don't should get the training that will cause you to know what it means.


Verticle T take down is all I got out of it, and that wouldn't be wise; so, your slang escapes me. Oh well.
Sean


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## Drac (Aug 26, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Meth labs are typically accompanied by powerful chemical smells, because the process involves lots of powerful, nasty chemicals like ether. And meth labs are simply bombs waiting to go off... Any more, taking one down ends up looking like a chemical warfare operation because of the dangers of the chemicals involved.
> 
> If you have ANY suspicion that there's a meth lab near you -- call the cops. They'll do various things to investigate and confirm, and then take it down safely.


 
Well said..Read and heed....


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## Balrog (Aug 27, 2007)

thardey said:


> How does one best survive an encounter with a paranoid person, who's on meth? Can you tell? Can you calm them down somehow?
> 
> Right now, this is rapidly becoming the most likely confrontation I'll run into. What's the best way to de-escalate, and get out of the situation with my own skin, and my family's?


 
In a nutshell: the odds are highly against you calming them down.

Sadly, you almost have to think of the meth as being a deadly weapon and respond accordingly.  Pressure points stop working because meth short-circuits the pain response.  Same for lockups.  Meth-heads will respond to a lockup by breaking their own bones to get to you, so don't expect to immobilize and control with a hammerlock, for example.

Best suggestion: run like hell.  If you can't, sweep a leg and as they fall, run like hell.  If you can't, things are going to get.....interesting....for a while.


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## DavidCC (Aug 27, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Thanks for the link, atinsley. Hmm. Well, things to do seem suspicious after reading that. Next time I smell something weird, I'll all the Sheriff's department and note which direction the wind is coming from. (Oh, these people use their backyard as a dump - they have a big hole where they've dumped computers and stuff. We have natural well water...)
> 
> About the house exploding comment - my neighbors aren't the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree and would probably be apt to do something r-e-a-l-l-y stupid if they're running a meth lab.
> 
> Yeah - I don't want to smell noxious/dangerous fumes either.


 
they may also be doing some illegal electronics recycling (no I'm not joking) which isn't nearly as danerous or smnelly as a meth lab.  My friend's grandfather also likes ot burn the insulation off of old coper wire and then sells it :idunno:


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## Lynne (Aug 27, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> they may also be doing some illegal electronics recycling (no I'm not joking) which isn't nearly as danerous or smnelly as a meth lab. My friend's grandfather also likes ot burn the insulation off of old coper wire and then sells it :idunno:


Hey David - my husband and I are trying to be aware.  Nothing would surprise me.  The son lives upstairs in a small apartment and has the required macho pitbull on a chain outside (which got loose and mildly attacked my german shepherd as I was walking him).  It's the general redneck scenario with a bunch of cars in the frontyard, speeding up and down the road 95 mph on a piece of junk Ninja bike at 1:00 am, domestic disputes loud enough to wake the dead, etc.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 28, 2007)

[qu

Sadly, you almost have to think of the meth as being a deadly weapon and respond accordingly. Pressure points stop working because meth short-circuits the pain response. Same for lockups. Meth-heads will respond to a lockup by breaking their own bones to get to you, so don't expect to immobilize and control with a hammerlock, for example.

Best suggestion: run like hell. If you can't, sweep a leg and as they fall, run like hell. If you can't, things are going to get.....interesting....for a while.[/quote]

 I agree with some of what you said, but some of it is conditional, people respond to the drug in different degrees and it's not usually anything like PCP.  You can make a tweaker scream, trust me.
  Yes they  will be more adjutated  and more willing to fight, yes they will take pain better than when normally pissed off, but rarely do they become the Supermen  you describe. Those people are dealy no matter what.


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## DavidCC (Aug 28, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Hey David - my husband and I are trying to be aware. Nothing would surprise me. The son lives upstairs in a small apartment and has the required macho pitbull on a chain outside (which got loose and mildly attacked my german shepherd as I was walking him). It's the general redneck scenario with a bunch of cars in the frontyard, speeding up and down the road 95 mph on a piece of junk Ninja bike at 1:00 am, domestic disputes loud enough to wake the dead, etc.


 
Sounds like meth to me.  I would call the cops at the first opportunity and tell them you think they are making meth.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 28, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> [qu
> 
> Sadly, you almost have to think of the meth as being a deadly weapon and respond accordingly. Pressure points stop working because meth short-circuits the pain response. Same for lockups. Meth-heads will respond to a lockup by breaking their own bones to get to you, so don't expect to immobilize and control with a hammerlock, for example.
> 
> Best suggestion: run like hell. If you can't, sweep a leg and as they fall, run like hell. If you can't, things are going to get.....interesting....for a while.


 
I agree with some of what you said, but some of it is conditional, people respond to the drug in different degrees and it's not usually anything like PCP. You can make a tweaker scream, trust me.
Yes they will be more adjutated and more willing to fight, yes they will take pain better than when normally pissed off, but rarely do they become the Supermen you describe. Those people are dealy no matter what.[/quote]I find them quite fragile actually.
sean


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## JBrainard (Aug 28, 2007)

Lynne said:


> It's the general redneck scenario with a bunch of cars in the frontyard, speeding up and down the road 95 mph on a piece of junk Ninja bike at 1:00 am, domestic disputes loud enough to wake the dead, etc.


 
You live next door to my in-laws?
(Sorry couldn't resist)


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## CoryKS (Aug 28, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> You live next door to my in-laws?
> (Sorry couldn't resist)


 
You married my sister?


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## Lynne (Aug 28, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> You live next door to my in-laws?
> (Sorry couldn't resist)


Ha ha.  I'm tellin'...

Luckily, I'm on 6 acres so they aren't 10 feet away.  I almost called the Sheriff's department the other night.  It was around 11:00 pm and my windows were open.  I would have sworn someone was going to get killed.  They finally shut up after about 45 minutes.

Then the coyotes started up which got my neighbor's dogs barking.  An owl was hooting near our bedroom window.  At 4:00 am, the milk trucks throw on their air brakes to go around the 90 degree curve an 1/8th mile away.  The country is not quiet.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 28, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Ha ha. I'm tellin'...
> 
> Luckily, I'm on 6 acres so they aren't 10 feet away. I almost called the Sheriff's department the other night. It was around 11:00 pm and my windows were open. I would have sworn someone was going to get killed. They finally shut up after about 45 minutes.
> 
> Then the coyotes started up which got my neighbor's dogs barking. An owl was hooting near our bedroom window. At 4:00 am, the milk trucks throw on their air brakes to go around the 90 degree curve an 1/8th mile away. The country is not quiet.


My neighbors put rice out for the birds. I'm moraly torn on the issue, but not so much that I did anything about it. LOL
Sean


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## CoryKS (Aug 28, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> My neighbors put rice out for the birds. I'm moraly torn on the issue, but not so much that I did anything about it. LOL
> Sean


 
I wouldn't worry too much about the birds.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 28, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about the birds.


I accidently killed my rat Larry by feeding him dry spagetti noodles, but I will keep that in mind.
Sean


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## JBrainard (Aug 28, 2007)

Back on topic: I've lived in questionable parts of Portland for years and encountered a lot of tweekers. So far, they have never given me a second glance. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I worry far more about the meth labs than thier clients.


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## jks9199 (Aug 28, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Ha ha.  I'm tellin'...
> 
> Luckily, I'm on 6 acres so they aren't 10 feet away.  I almost called the Sheriff's department the other night.  It was around 11:00 pm and my windows were open.  I would have sworn someone was going to get killed.  They finally shut up after about 45 minutes.
> 
> Then the coyotes started up which got my neighbor's dogs barking.  An owl was hooting near our bedroom window.  At 4:00 am, the milk trucks throw on their air brakes to go around the 90 degree curve an 1/8th mile away.  The country is not quiet.


Let's see... You're on 10 acres.  I'm going to guess that you didn't build your house 10 feet from the common property line; let's figure at least 100 ft between buildings, and they're having a dispute or whatever going for 45 minutes, which makes you think that someone's going to get killed..  And you only "almost" called.  

Let me run this down again...

Cops, sheriff's deputies, and other similar local (and sometimes state) law enforcement officers are dispatched to calls; the dispatchers/call takers do their best to assess the call, and rank it's priority properly.  They'll pull people off of low priority calls or activity to respond to emergencies.  So... you see something that worries you, call it in!  The worst you'll do is keep some cop or deputy from writing a ticket.  How terrible!

But how would you feel if they HAD killed each other, and you didn't call...

(I can't help but suspect that there are quite a few people who lived in the same building as Kitty Genovese who have trouble sleeping at night...)


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## Lynne (Aug 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Let's see... You're on 10 acres. I'm going to guess that you didn't build your house 10 feet from the common property line; let's figure at least 100 ft between buildings, and they're having a dispute or whatever going for 45 minutes, which makes you think that someone's going to get killed.. And you only "almost" called.
> 
> Let me run this down again...
> 
> ...


I get your points.  Thank you.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Let's see... You're on 10 acres. I'm going to guess that you didn't build your house 10 feet from the common property line; let's figure at least 100 ft between buildings, and they're having a dispute or whatever going for 45 minutes, which makes you think that someone's going to get killed.. And you only "almost" called.
> 
> Let me run this down again...
> 
> ...


On the other hand, traffic stops are a main source of getting Meth of the streets.
Sean


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## Bill Bednarick (Aug 29, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> But how would you feel if they HAD killed each other, and you didn't call...



If it was me?

Relieved.


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## Lynne (Aug 30, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> If it was me?
> 
> Relieved.


My husband would agree with you.


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## Bill Bednarick (Sep 5, 2007)

Lynne said:


> My husband would agree with you.



The question with junkies isn't the IF just the WHEN.

And the when usually comes after they cause tremendous collateral damage to everyone around them.

Every once in a while they kill themselves off young but mostly they scrabble thru life like human roaches.


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## Em MacIntosh (Sep 5, 2007)

The only advantage you have is keeping your head.  Use your surroundings.  Don't play their game, make them play yours.  Environment, forcing predictability etc. are the best tactics aside from running.  Even running you might be outclassed.  Be prepared to control the situation with your brain.  Guage distance, which leg is carrying the weight, their awkward side, how they respond to your actions.  My freind Ryan boxed out a meth head in a street fight.  Kept his distance, defensive backstep ,pop-pop, repeat.  The agressor couldn't lay a hand on him because he didn't put any thought into what he was doing.  Someone trained how to fight and on meth is a different story as their muscle memory serves them well.  This is a drug designed for post apocalyptic zombie killing and pit fighters.


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## DavidCC (Sep 5, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> is a drug designed for post apocalyptic zombie killing and pit fighters.


 
And Nazi pilots.


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## Bill Bednarick (Sep 7, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> And Nazi pilots.



Not just them...

The Japanese figured out the synthesis of Meth from natural ephedrine prior to WW2.
They used it as much or more than their pals the Nazis.
Kamikazes used it and the famous bayonet charges were meth fueled suicide attacks.

Then after the war the stockpiled Japanese military Meth was fed to their factory workers to increase production.


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## thardey (Sep 7, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> Not just them...
> 
> The Japanese figured out the synthesis of Meth from natural ephedrine prior to WW2.
> They used it as much or more than their pals the Nazis.
> ...




I remember hearing stories about how the Japanese soldiers just "wouldn't go down", and that was part of the reason that the .45 auto regained popularity -- but I figured it was a kind of a "war legend" (especially since the crux of the stories were about how only a .45 could "knock a man down" and most of us know that isn't true) but that the Japanese were just really determined. 

But that makes more sense. Is there an article somewhere I could look into this deeper?


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## Bill Bednarick (Sep 11, 2007)

thardey said:


> I remember hearing stories about how the Japanese soldiers just "wouldn't go down", and that was part of the reason that the .45 auto regained popularity -- but I figured it was a kind of a "war legend" (especially since the crux of the stories were about how only a .45 could "knock a man down" and most of us know that isn't true) but that the Japanese were just really determined.
> 
> But that makes more sense. Is there an article somewhere I could look into this deeper?


It was Moro warriors in the Phillipines than wouldn't go down easy that prompted the switch back to .45 from the newer .38 revolvers.

General meth info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine

Hard facts on anything the Japanese military did during WWII are hard to find, but their fanaticism and savagery was legendary.
Here's a little about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes


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