# Gimme all ya' got!



## Grenadier (Sep 22, 2009)

Something heart-warming for y'all today:

This elderly gentleman was more than happy to oblige

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/dayton/WDTN_Attempted_robbery_leads_to_shooting




> Police say 24-year-old Phillip Anderson was driving a Monte Carlo on Brooklyn Avenue just after 6 P.M. Saturday evening when he cut off another driver, a 72-year-old man. Police say Anderson then went out to confront the older man.
> 
> "The 24-year-old stepped out of his vehicle with an AK 47 Assault rifle and said, 'give me all you got'", Sergeant John Sullivan with Dayton Police said.
> Officers say instead of money, Anderson got bullets.


 
The elder man has guts, being undergunned like that, but I won't argue with a successful defense.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 23, 2009)

> Officials say *Anderson's injuries are not life threatening*.


Too bad...


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## prokarateshop (Sep 23, 2009)

its amazing that he was carrying an AK around. Not very bright.. maybe he was anticipating a war


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## Deaf Smith (Sep 23, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> The elder man has guts, being undergunned like that, but I won't argue with a successful defense.


 
Undergunned but not outmanned. And it's the human part of the equation that matters the most.

I once read where a female NYPD cop walked into a bank robbery. Two of the thugs had 1911 .45s and the other a revolver. She had a 'J' frame Chief's .38. She shot all three and captured them. Yes a 5 shot snub revolver.

Just keep in mind it's not how many bullets your gun holds. It's how strait you can shoot.

Deaf


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## Knives (Sep 24, 2009)

Jeeze, walking out of your car in the middle of a road with an AK. Sounds like something out of a movie.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 24, 2009)

I need you clothes you boots and.... ah crap I'm in the street naked again, sorry folks!
Seriously though that guy got his just deserts maybe he'll learn that a rifle isn't a toy and never to disrespect your elders.


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## K31 (Sep 28, 2009)

Knives said:


> Jeeze, walking out of your car in the middle of a road with an AK. Sounds like something out of a movie.


 
In media speak, all long guns used in a crime are AK47s. Usually preceded by "high-powered" and usually described as weapon of choice for gangs to shoot police officers and puppies.


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## lklawson (Sep 29, 2009)

K31 said:


> In media speak, all long guns used in a crime are AK47s. Usually preceded by "high-powered" and usually described as weapon of choice for gangs to shoot police officers and puppies.


In this case it really was some AK variant.

I was pleased at the LEO spokes person who presented a fair assessment of the event and did not portray the victim as a violent lunatic.  Can't say the same for the Ch2 report though which had "agenda speak" like "drew his own firearm and fired, missing several times, endangering the neighborhood."

I live in the 'burbs and work in Dayton.  It's not all that violent, really, but many parts of the city are, well, city.  And Dayton itself is a liberal bastion, heck, Ohio is considered "swing state" but if you look at the Tax code and a lot of the "Social Programs" it seems to swing more left than right.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## K831 (Sep 30, 2009)

K31 said:


> In media speak, all long guns used in a crime are AK47s. Usually preceded by "high-powered" and usually described as weapon of choice for gangs to shoot police officers and puppies.



Don't forget, all long guns are also "assault rifles" full auto or not. 

Good for the old man. Too bad the other two rounds missed their target.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 30, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Undergunned but not outmanned. And it's the human part of the equation that matters the most.
> 
> I once read where a female NYPD cop walked into a bank robbery. Two of the thugs had 1911 .45s and the other a revolver. She had a 'J' frame Chief's .38. She shot all three and captured them. Yes a 5 shot snub revolver.
> 
> ...



Of course where the .38 came in is that she 'shot all three and captured them'.......versus all three dying at the scene.  But you make due with what you've got.


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## lklawson (Oct 1, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Of course where the .38 came in is that she 'shot all three and captured them'.......versus all three dying at the scene.  But you make due with what you've got.


Most people survive being shot with a pistol caliber if medical attention is readily available, regardless of the caliber.  

Long-arms, on the other hand...

I keep wondering if I could find a way to comfortably CCW a Kel-Tec PLR16.  

It's a cinch that IWB (or, God forbid, "mexican") ain't gonna work.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## KenpoTex (Oct 2, 2009)

lklawson said:


> Most people survive being shot with a pistol caliber if medical attention is readily available, regardless of the caliber.
> 
> Long-arms, on the other hand...
> 
> ...



maybe something similar to this?   
http://www.andrewsleather.com/firepower.htm


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 2, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Of course where the .38 came in is that she 'shot all three and captured them'.......versus all three dying at the scene. But you make due with what you've got.


 
I'm sure the NYPD used RNL bullets back then. The old 'widow makers' (but they ment the ones doing the shootings ended up dead, not the bad guy) were all that was allowed to be carried.

Deaf


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## Grenadier (Oct 2, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> I'm sure the NYPD used RNL bullets back then. The old 'widow makers' (but they ment the ones doing the shootings ended up dead, not the bad guy) were all that was allowed to be carried.
> 
> Deaf


 
The NYPD has been somewhat slow, when it comes to using newer ammunition.  Even after they ditched the revolvers and lead ball ammo, they were using FMJ in their Glock pistols.  

I can still remember the furor and the anger seething from the "Reverend" Al Sharpton, after the NYPD finally made the switch to Gold Dot hollowpoints.  He was blathering something about how this allowed them to be "judge, jury and executioner."  

Heck, I can remember the Columbia, South Carolina, police.  Until the later part of the 1990's, they were also stuck with their old .357 magnum revolvers, and that all they could carry was .38 Special lead ball, and a speedloader of 6 more rounds.  It wasn't until that time, that they finally started carrying Sig P220's, and 230 grain FMJ.


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 2, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> It wasn't until that time, that they finally started carrying Sig P220's, and 230 grain FMJ.


 
Well, if I *HAD* to use FMJ, it sure would be a .45 that I'd pick.

Al Sharpton's comment is typical of those who has to use emotion instead of logic. I said has to cause there is no logic.  Behing shot with a FMJ instead of a JHP is no less "judge, jury and executioner" than being killed by any particular method. "judge, jury and executioner" is in the will and mindset of the person, not the weapon.

I think in the Amadou Diallo case they fired over 40 shots, hitting him 19 times. I think they used 9mm FMJ at the time. The FMJ just zipped right through him and he stood long enough so they kept shooting till he fell. With so many hits he blead out.

JHPs tend to be better stoppers and thus you have to shoot the other person less. And that actually makes it more survivable as there are no where near as many entrance and exit wounds, all leaking blood.

Deaf


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## lklawson (Oct 5, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> T
> Heck, I can remember the Columbia, South Carolina, police.  Until the later part of the 1990's, they were also stuck with their old .357 magnum revolvers, and that all they could carry was .38 Special lead ball, and a speedloader of 6 more rounds


.357 Mags are *GOOD *pistols and a *GOOD *caliber.  The .38 Spl... well, there are worse, but if you've got a .357 it should be fed .357 ammo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 5, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> JHPs tend to be better stoppers and thus you have to shoot the other person less. And that actually makes it more survivable as there are no where near as many entrance and exit wounds, all leaking blood.


This is what tends to cause long running threads and flame fests.

For the record, I'll state it and then leave everyone to their own opinions on the matter.  I'll also throw in a bit of rehash for folks who may be new to the issue.

There are only 3 things that will cause a "man stop" (so to speak) from pistol caliber rounds.

First, there is a Central Nervous System hit.  Brain, spine, etc.  It's hard to do and usually well protected by bone, but sometimes can be hit and if a bullet bounces off of one it can sometimes cause temporary disruption of the system.  It's rare to get a good CNS hit with a pistol so don't really count on it. (we can all agree that the "slug" part of the ammunition is called the "bullet" right?)

Second, there's psycho-somatic effects.  A lot of people have been "programmed" by decades of SVU and the like to believe that if they're shot they should drop to the ground and flop like a fish for a moment and then expire.  It is not unheard of for people to mimic exactly this.  However, they have to first believe that they are supposed to react that way, and second, believe that they have been shot.  If you can get that magic mixture then you can "man stop" with a starter pistol or blanks.  Again, it's not reliable.

Third, is bleed out.  The target looses so much blood due to external and/or internal bleeding that his blood pressure to the brain drops below minimum and he loses consciousness.  This may or may not be accompanied by continued blood loss and the target expiring.

These are pretty much the only ways and, of those, the third is really the only certain way to "man stop."  Some folks talk about hydrostatic shocks reverberating through the target and causing disruption to the internal organs and CNS but this is hard to do with a pistol caliber and, last time I saw the research, unconfirmed (at best).  Long arms are a different animal, of course.

Most folks agree on these stipulations (though, admittedly, not all).  The point of contention becomes, how is the best way to cause bleed out.  The truth is that multiple through and through holes through the center of mass (where most of the organs reside which the circulatory system feeds) will cause bleed out most quickly, barring a "lucky" hit to a major artery or vein (ask the knife-fighters where those are ;-)  Two holes bleed more than one.  This points to moderately powerful pistol rounds, such as the 9mm Para, with bullets designed to penetrate and not deform.  However, these are highly susceptible to "over penetration" which puts bystanders at even greater risk because not only are they vulnerable to rounds which do not hit the target but also to those rounds which pass through the target.

Further, there is a compelling case made that "bigger holes" cause more bleeding.  This points to larger caliber handguns, such as the .45 ACP, and/or expanding bullets.

Additionally, the case is made that, for maximum public safety, over penetration should be minimized and, ideally, eliminated.  For the best compromise, it is reasoned, the wound channel caused by the bullet should piece the entire body, through and through, stopping just before exiting the skin at the other side of the target.  Because this is impossible with current technology a compromise is made.  Handgun caliber bullets targeted at LEO and SD applications are designed to penetrate a minimum distance (in calibrated ballistic gelatin) but not to penetrate beyond a maximum distance, giving the ammunition manufacturer a range to work within.  They usually accomplish this by engineering expanding ammunition which will expand as dramatically as possible after the minimum distance (or leading up through that), usually as defined by the FBI "Minimum Penetration" standard.

What it boils down to is that, in the Diallo and similar cases anyhow, Ball ammo is neither "less survivable" nor "more survivable" than expanding ammo.  The point of shooting someone is to stop him, and the BEST way of doing that is, unfortunately, the same sort of thing that kills him.  Mr. Jackson's "judge, jury, and executioner" statement is, predictably, stupid, uniformed, and illogical.  No offense intended, but in my personal opinion, countering it with a statement of, "well expanding bullet ammunition stops better and is more survivable" is, at best, misleading and equally illogical.

I know it's been said that you can't use logic to argue a person out of a position taken without logic, but using illogic doesn't seem to work either.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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