# Does this make sense and what would you do?



## Flamebearer (Oct 22, 2004)

Ok, I was reading this book and came across a combat situation that I was kind of skeptical about. 

There's this lady MAist who's mainly trained in TKD and she's making one of those last brave stands against hordes of gun-slinging invaders (military). She's armed with two knives, maybe 6-8 in. long. The attackers are clustering around this sliding door. She doesn't know they're there, bursts through the door, and starts kicking and slashing. I think the idea is that she creates so much confusion that she takes out maybe a dozen before getting shot by a rifleman/sniper type. As she goes down she throws a knife and gets the main bad guy in the throat.

To my way of thinking, kicks would push the attackers back and give them room to aim and shoot without fear of hitting their own.

Anyway, what do you think? And what would you do if you were in that situation (if of course you ever were   )?

-Flamebearer


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## OUMoose (Oct 22, 2004)

Lots of questions there.  How big is the room?  What kind of guns?  Is there no other point of entry?  Daytime or nightime?  

I understand it's a book and (hopefully) fiction, therefore there has to be some suspension of belief.  

What would I do?  First, I wouldn't storm into a room without knowing exactly what I'm getting into.  If I had no other choice, I'd open the door and bait the closest attacker, forcing them to come to me in smaller numbers through the door.  If too many make it out, duck inside and repeat the process until they're all taken out.  If they don't take the bait, pick up one of the dead guys guns and start shooting.  

Interesting situation though.  Will have to think more about that one.


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## Flamebearer (Oct 25, 2004)

Apologies for not being too clear. It is fiction. 

She already did what you suggested - and now she's trying to get out of the room (through the door  ) because her previous opponents from an earlier chapter rushed her. As she goes through the door she has no idea that there's other people out there. So she's got people behind and in front to deal with as she goes into the situation I described.

I agree it is an interesting problem.
-Flamebearer


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## 8253 (Oct 25, 2004)

divide and attack in both directions.  uh maybe.  or run really fast.  or theres always the go out in a blaze of glory option.


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## Baytor (Oct 25, 2004)

So did she plan to get into an altercation that got kinda out of control?  Because a planned response would be far different than an unplanned one.


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## Mark Weiser (Oct 25, 2004)

Unless the people outside are armed to the teeth with weapons. I would use the door as a funnel to keep them from rushing me from the outside. Once I stepped outside I would have gone right back into the room. Focus on those coming into the room. 

Of course a flashbang or a grenade or two would be nice at this point. Of course who brings a Knife to a gunfight anyway?


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## KenpoTex (Oct 26, 2004)

One person armed only with two knives against a bunch of guys with automatic weapons...she's f***ed.

Facing that many people you'd have to have something to even the odds, a claymore mine would be great, an M-203 grenade launcher, or an RPG would be acceptable, or like Mark Weiser said, grenades are always good although I don't think a flashbang would do a whole lot of good.  But any of these options would have made it boring, I guess the Banzai charge with the knives makes for a better ending.


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## sasquatchnaruto (Oct 26, 2004)

thats obviously fiction there lol i dont think it could ever happen in real life.


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## Flamebearer (Oct 27, 2004)

Baytor said:
			
		

> So did she plan to get into an altercation that got kinda out of control? Because a planned response would be far different than an unplanned one.


This was definately unplanned. I'm just wondering what you could do to take out as many people as you could before you went down - and as kenpotex says, there's the need for drama :jediduel: 

Actually she had a gun in the previous chapter but she used up the ammo on the people inside the room. Then she had to go slip in the fresh blood and drop the gun, so you can't use that as a club. and who wants a club when you have knives?

I'm gonna start carrying a grenade or two in my purse....lol %-} 

-Flamebearer


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## Baytor (Oct 27, 2004)

She's skrewed.  She should take a moment and say something witty.  That way, when the soldiers look back on how they killed her, there will be a good punchline.  

Of course, she could use another sort of distraction.  If she pulled her shirt up and flashed everyone, they would all be distracted because lets face it... most guys have a one track mind.  :jedi1:


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## Oak Bo (Oct 27, 2004)

Baytor said:
			
		

> If she pulled her shirt up and flashed everyone, they would all be distracted because lets face it... most guys have a one track mind.


 I'd vote for that


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## Flamebearer (Oct 27, 2004)

Decidedly bad taste, guys. Not to mention a few other things.
I don't think it would work for a book - rate it "R"
-Flamebearer


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## Baytor (Oct 27, 2004)

I'm sorry you feel that was in bad taste.  While not the most polite thing to say, we are discussing how to kill a room full of armed people using two knives.  I was attempting to use psychology and a study of human behavior to come up with a solution to a very difficult problem.

Again, sorry for the offense.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

What kind of room was it?  If it was a kitchen, she might have been able to mix some bleach and ammonia and toss it out there... or maybe make a good ol draino bomb... 

Dunno.

But faced with two knives against a bunch of guns, Id be looking for an alternative to be sure...


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## Flamebearer (Oct 27, 2004)

_Quote: Baytor_
_I'm sorry you feel that was in bad taste. While not the most polite thing to say, we are discussing how to kill a room full of armed people using two knives. I was attempting to use psychology and a study of human behavior to come up with a solution to a very difficult problem.

Again, sorry for the offense._
===========

I _do_ realize that there are psych aspects of self defense - and another person might resort to such a method. But personally, I'd die first. There's some things I just won't do. That's my take on it.

BTW, this was a basement. No windows - or you could jump out of one.

-Flamebearer


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> But personally, I'd die first. There's some things I just won't do. That's my take on it.
> -Flamebearer


Wow.

Hmm.

Wow.

Thats conviction to a belief, right there. :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2004)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> Ok, I was reading this book and came across a combat situation that I was kind of skeptical about.
> 
> There's this lady MAist who's mainly trained in TKD and she's making one of those last brave stands against hordes of gun-slinging invaders (military). She's armed with two knives, maybe 6-8 in. long. The attackers are clustering around this sliding door. She doesn't know they're there, bursts through the door, and starts kicking and slashing. I think the idea is that she creates so much confusion that she takes out maybe a dozen before getting shot by a rifleman/sniper type. As she goes down she throws a knife and gets the main bad guy in the throat.
> 
> ...




Well, I could see a chaotic combat taking place. A bunch of guys in Camo's all geeked up and carrying assault rifles and othe weapons.

She jumps through the door way and the guys relax as it is a female, and then they see the knife or knives as she has pulled it out of the first guy(s). One or two down, or soon to be down. She kicks to the knees or stomps the shins to create room as she jumps to the next guys to stab. While she is screaming the whole time. 

Now the question is why do they just do not shoot her? If she makes it to the group and the firing of a weapon would cause firendly fire into their own troops, someting troops are trained to try to avoid and to maintain muzzle awareness for safety.

Is it possible for her to have been able to attack and wound and or a few? Yes. 

The part I have the problem with is the Knife throw and beign able to kill the person.  Yes, this is much harder than it looks. 

Just my thoughts on this piece of fiction.


 :asian:


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## Cruentus (Oct 27, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Just my thoughts on this piece of fiction.
> :asian:



Baaahhh, Bulls**t. This exact scenario actually happened to Rich a few years ago. His response was to swing the biggest guy around like a baseball bat to knock everyone down, and then to crush all their heads with a single sweep of his king-kong like hands...


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Baaahhh, Bulls**t. This exact scenario actually happened to Rich a few years ago. His response was to swing the biggest guy around like a baseball bat to knock everyone down, and then to crush all their heads with a single sweep of his king-kong like hands...


 
:angel:  Honestly, it did not   

 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao: 

You had me in tears.  

 :asian:


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## Flamebearer (Oct 28, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Thats conviction to a belief, right there. :asian:


I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks "Life is not worth living unless you have something to die for."

Somebody famous said that, can't remember who - but I don't think it was Yoda               :jedi1: 

Yeah, the King Kong thing might work - if you happened to be KK. :ultracool 

If you screamed would that draw more attackers? and if it did would that be good or bad? More chaos, yes, but wouldn't it increase your chances of getting shot?

-Flamebearer


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## loki09789 (Oct 28, 2004)

Baytor said:
			
		

> She's skrewed. She should take a moment and say something witty. That way, when the soldiers look back on how they killed her, there will be a good punchline.
> 
> Of course, she could use another sort of distraction. If she pulled her shirt up and flashed everyone, they would all be distracted because lets face it... most guys have a one track mind. :jedi1:


 
I remember watching a History Channel special about banks/robbery and such where they talked about a team of Swedish bank robbers that worked topless...no one could describe their faces for an ID.

Poor taste?  I don't know, if you are going to limit tactical planning on propriety your definitely f****ed.  Fiction 'tactical solutions' for stories do have to account for audience, but this hypothetical discussion about a fictious character is springing from it, not expected to predict the actual plot outcome correct?

Would it be any more 'blue' if the theoretical tactics of the bad guys was to wound her and use rape as an interrogation tool?  It has/does/will happen in reality and fiction is inspired by that.


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## Flamebearer (Oct 28, 2004)

In this situation convictions and personal honor would take away one or two  of very many different options. Of course, as the situation progresses, the amount of options available either increases or decreases. Personally, if the options decreased to a point where only a few were available, I would still stand by my principles. 

Would you rather die fighting and clean or die raped and submissive?
IMHO they would kill her no matter what happened, especially after seeing the mess she made of their buddies earlier.
-Flamebearer


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## Baytor (Oct 28, 2004)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> In this situation convictions and personal honor would take away one or two of very many different options. Of course, as the situation progresses, the amount of options available either increases or decreases. Personally, if the options decreased to a point where only a few were available, I would still stand by my principles.
> 
> Would you rather die fighting and clean or die raped and submissive?
> IMHO they would kill her no matter what happened, especially after seeing the mess she made of their buddies earlier.
> -Flamebearer


After a brief review of my post, I don't think I completed my line of thinking.  I did not mean to imply in any way that she should submit.  I was saying that she should use flashing as a distraction, and follow that with extreme violence in action to create chaos.  With chaos comes opporitunity.
To quote the the comic that my avatar came from, "If you're going to die, die with dogs at your feet."


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## someguy (Oct 28, 2004)

I perfer if your going to die then do it in a nice cofortable way when you get old.  Thats just me though.
I'm just screwing around though. But what comic does your avatar come from?


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 28, 2004)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> If you screamed would that draw more attackers? and if it did would that be good or bad? More chaos, yes, but wouldn't it increase your chances of getting shot?
> 
> -Flamebearer



Flamebearer,

If you screamed in rage, then yes this might or might not bring more attackers. It might cause hesitation. Yet, if you scream in fear, most males will look to see what is chasing the female screaming in fear, and noe watch her. Giving her more time stab and hurt people.


 :asian:


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## Baytor (Oct 28, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> I perfer if your going to die then do it in a nice cofortable way when you get old. Thats just me though.
> I'm just screwing around though. But what comic does your avatar come from?


It's from The Hitman.  It's a DC series that ended a couple of years ago.  It was very cool.  Action and comedy, but it was also a tragedy.  The writer was not afraid to kill off the main characters friends.  All of them.  And the main character died in the last issue.


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## loki09789 (Oct 29, 2004)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> In this situation convictions and personal honor would take away one or two of very many different options. Of course, as the situation progresses, the amount of options available either increases or decreases. Personally, if the options decreased to a point where only a few were available, I would still stand by my principles.
> 
> Would you rather die fighting and clean or die raped and submissive?
> IMHO they would kill her no matter what happened, especially after seeing the mess she made of their buddies earlier.
> -Flamebearer


In reality, I am sure that the Rangers in Somalia felt the same way until they were face with women holding infants standing with spread legs so that prone tribal fighters could use them as human shields while they fired on the Rangers. The tactical logic was that American rules of engagement is not to fire on non combatants. The situation did get dire and the Rangers did fire at/on the women as human shields in order to stay alive.  In the immediate threat of the moment they made the best tactical/contextual choice they had.

Conversely, SF soldiers in observation/hidden positions in 'Scud Alley' that were calling in strikes on Scuds in Iraq during the first gulf war have reported Iraqi herders (old men/children) tripping over them and the SF guys either detained them and let them go or simply let them escape and called the mission bust and requested extract because they had the luxury of time to way the options and the opportunity to control the calculated risks in doing so...

Deciding to submit to rape with the hope that you will survive it or create/extend the opportunity for escape is still a tactical decision - though not an easy or pleasant one.

But, even in fiction or reality, which is more important - accomplishing the overall/greater good task or preserving your personal integrity/principles at the expense of the mission/goal/greater good?

Fiction likes to elevate the 'hero' as one who can do both (accomplish the task and preserve/recover that personal integrity).  Reality is that people have suffered post traumatic stress as part of that reconsiliation process for making the tough decisions and killing someone or letting someone get killed.

Reality is harsher than fiction everytime. I would like to think that principle would win out too, but until you've been there it's all spitballing.


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## Flamebearer (Nov 6, 2004)

Apologies for delay... out of country.. brought computer but dang the sockets are different.

Some very interesting points. There's also the case of Palestinian extremists taking advantage of these 'immediate threat' choices and putting their kids in the line of fire. After they get shot, they make sure it gets all over the news....

The choices that one person may make for him/herself certainly will differ when he has to make the same choice for a group of people, as I think we've all realized. 

I can't help thinking about how the Somalian situation and wondering what would have happened if the women had the will to oppose the fighters (although it's understandable why they didn't). Yes, they probably still would have ended up dead, but they would have deprived the tribesmen of an advantage. One reason why I study MA is so I can not only make a choice _not_ to be coerced/forced/raped, but _act _on it.

I do realize that when principles meet reality, it's usually the principles that get busted. Usually. But, IMHO, it's the exceptions of the people that stand by their principles that actually gets things of lasting value accomplished.

Ethics, ethics.... oh yes, life would be simpler without them:whip: 
What do you think??

-Flamebearer


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## Cryozombie (Nov 6, 2004)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> Ethics, ethics.... oh yes, life would be simpler without them:whip:
> What do you think??
> 
> -Flamebearer


I try and avoid them at all costs.  They make me to ethical.


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## Baytor (Nov 6, 2004)

I once heard a saying that went something like this:  "Once your principles are gone, the rest is a piece of cake."


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## loki09789 (Nov 8, 2004)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> I can't help thinking about how the Somalian situation and wondering what would have happened if the women had the will to oppose the fighters (although it's understandable why they didn't). Yes, they probably still would have ended up dead, but they would have deprived the tribesmen of an advantage. One reason why I study MA is so I can not only make a choice _not_ to be coerced/forced/raped, but _act _on it.
> 
> I do realize that when principles meet reality, it's usually the principles that get busted. Usually. But, IMHO, it's the exceptions of the people that stand by their principles that actually gets things of lasting value accomplished.
> 
> ...


According to the mood of the area in Somalia, the woman (for the most part) were willing accomplices in this human shield tactic.  They were as dedicated to the idea of killing/kicking out the outsiders as the men, so resisting wasn't really on the concern list.

I agree that principles count for something, I hope I am not coming off too ''ends justify the means" here, but - in the case of the heroine you are describing - and real life as well there are calculated risks, there is heroic and there is stupid/foolhardy.

To 'die for your principles' at the expense of the 'mission' or the greater good, IMO is not heroic but wasteful.  Calculated risks is the way to go IMO.  I remember my DI's asking all the time "Do you want to die for your country?" and the immediate (early on in training) answer was a "Yes SIR!" but then they would say "NO, you want to make the other guy die for his country."
Principled people will IMO take into consideration what the best tactical choice is in the moment and larger picture and make it - regardless of what that means to their emotional/physical risks.  'Sacrificing' your principles to live and fight another day can be just as heroic IMO as 'Sacrificing' your body for your principles and leaving the fight to others - with fewer left to stand up because of your death.

A less dramatic scenario is in hockey.  If you are the last line of defense between the puck carrier and the goalie, the general tactic is to stay on your feet (don't try to check the guy or dive to block the shot) and force the carrier to the outside angle so that they are forced to make a move to try and get around you or to take a bad angle shot.  Now, if you know that you have support that can pick up the slack - have fun!

It is a way of taking a calculated risk instead of trying to take the guy out in that moment when individual failure could be a proportionately huge team loss.


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