# Bujinkan as religious org. and christian practitioners



## Juzaofthecloud (Dec 2, 2010)

I was wondering with the Bujinkan moving towards being recognized as a religious organization in Japan, has it affected the feelings of any of the christian members? How do you feel about it?

I would like to ask the opinion of any christian practitioners who have to decided to stay in the Bujinkan or those who have decided to leave.

If you are going to stay, what factors/thoughts helped you make your decision and how do you personally reconcile the Christian doctrine of not participating in other religions with your participation in the Bujinkan?

Likewise if you decided to leave the Bujinkan. What factors/thoughts caused your decision?

I studied in the Bujinkan for several years and was thinking about getting started again after a long hiatus. I'm still trying to form my own opinion about my Christianity and the Bujinkan so I would like to hear as much discussion and thoughts from others as I can so I hopefully can come to my own conclusion about resuming training.

I don't want to stir up a can of worms, but any opinion is much appreciated. Thanks in advance to everyone, and if this thread has already been discussed, sorry for the re-post. Just point me in the right direction and I'll continue to research elsewhere.


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## Omar B (Dec 2, 2010)

Only interested in what the christians have to say I see.


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## Juzaofthecloud (Dec 2, 2010)

Anyones opinion is welcome. A Christian point of view just comes from a unique perspective common to my own. So I thought the perspectives of said Christians would have a simlar starting point based on Christian beliefs and practices. However others may also have knowledge of these things and have valuable opinions to share.

By all means everyone please share your thoughts.

Sorry if I made different points of view seem irrelevant. That was not my intention.


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## dbell (Dec 2, 2010)

I don't think the move to a "religious" group is a "religious" move, but a political and money issue.  It gives Sensei Hatsumi a means of keeping more of the money he is bringing in.  So I don't think there is a real impact on Christianity or any other faith system.  It is, as I understand it a means to reduce his taxes and other fees he has to pay.  At least that is my understanding from what I have read in various places.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 3, 2010)

Not quite.


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## dbell (Dec 3, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> Not quite.



Explain more!?


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## Juzaofthecloud (Dec 3, 2010)

dbell,
I had heard something similar. More to the effect that it was to keep all of Hatsumi's valuable ninja and martial arts collection(scrolls, weapons, etc.) from being seized by the Japanese government when he died because of some type of tax on inheritance they have in Japan. 
This is what my instructor told us students, but that was near 2 years ago. My info isn't completely up to date.

So is this the general feeling of most, that this is an effort to protect our Bujinkan heritage and has no religious nature?


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## Chris Parker (Dec 3, 2010)

One thing that may be important to remember is that Japan is a multi-theistic society. In fact, it's not just multi-theistic in the way that, say, the US or Australia is, with many different religious philosophies existing side by side yet at the same time mutually exclusive; in Japan it's not considered unusual to follow both Buddhist and Shinto practices at the same time, with no contradiction at all. So when a Japanese organisation, such as the Bujinkan, looks to become a religious organisation, the idea of other religious ideologies may not factor into things, as it's considered normal to express multiple theistic ideals.

Realistically, for any Christians practicing within the Bujinkan, it will come down to personal interpretation and emphasis.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 3, 2010)

From what I understood, taxes in Japan are very complicated. Moreso than in most societies. Another difference is that in many countries, tax evasion is seen like 'not really a crime'. In Japan otoh, I have heard that it is considered a serious crime. Likewise, if the Japanese IRS decides to raid a place, they go about it in the same way that a DEA SWAT team would raid a large meth lab. All in all, you have to play by the rules.

Now, with that in mind, Hatsumi sensei has a collection of stuff that he would like to pass down to his successor, or at least stay within the Bujinkan (however the succession may turn out). Normally, the next person would have to pay significant inheritance fees. Except if the Bujinkan is recognized as a religious organization. Because then a lot of that does not apply. And In Japan this would not even be considered unusual or morally wrong.
It's just what you do to be legally ok with the tax man.

Additionally, I have read that there were talks of road reconstruction that would affect the Bujinkan hombu dojo. If it were recognized as a place of religious importance, then it would be protected, at least while Hatsumi sensei figured out a solution.

I don't know if that is accurate or not, but it is what I understood from what I read.
It most certainly has nothing to do with looking at the Bujinkan as a religion. So I really think that this is a moot point for Christians.


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## Juzaofthecloud (Dec 3, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> One thing that may be important to remember is that Japan is a multi-theistic society. In fact, it's not just multi-theistic in the way that, say, the US or Australia is, with many different religious philosophies existing side by side yet at the same time mutually exclusive; in Japan it's not considered unusual to follow both Buddhist and Shinto practices at the same time, with no contradiction at all. So when a Japanese organisation, such as the Bujinkan, looks to become a religious organisation, the idea of other religious ideologies may not factor into things, as it's considered normal to express multiple theistic ideals.
> 
> Realistically, for any Christians practicing within the Bujinkan, it will come down to personal interpretation and emphasis.



Yes, I definitely see your point. I recently had a discussion with my wife about that(she is Japanese). She said something similar.

Your last sentence is absolutely correct.  I guess I am still trying to decide how I will interpret it. So I hope I can hear others ideas on their interpretation. Thanks for that good thought.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Dec 3, 2010)

dbell said:


> I don't think the move to a "religious" group is a "religious" move, but a political and money issue.  It gives Sensei Hatsumi a means of keeping more of the money he is bringing in.  So I don't think there is a real impact on Christianity or any other faith system.  It is, as I understand it a means to reduce his taxes and other fees he has to pay.  At least that is my understanding from what I have read in various places.



i have read about this before. 
anyway it doesn't need any religion in ninjutsu.
ninjutsu can also be a religion
just depends if you can blend it with an open mind


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 9, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> i have read about this before.
> anyway it doesn't need any religion in ninjutsu.
> ninjutsu can also be a religion
> just depends if you can blend it with an open mind



Technically Ninjutsu would be more of a way of life rather than a religion per se. IMO anyway. You aren't worshiping anyone or anything (I hope) but rather accepting the philosophies as a base to live by. 

Personally I believe the arts should be secular (separate from religion) just the same as politics, education etc as it can and most probably will detract from the teachings to approach it with pre-determined or conflicted mindsets. That's just my take on it though and may not sit well with everyone.


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## Indagator (Dec 10, 2010)

imho, Ninjutsu is compatible with any and all religion - it is not a religion in and of itself, but merely offers a new perspective and way of life with which one can transcend their own selves and truly practice their theological beliefs at a previously unachievable level.

Ninjutsu is a way of living, being, thinking, doing. It is the context, not the phrase. It is the lens, not the camera. So on and so forth. Lol.

I see no conflict between my own religion and being a Ninjutsu practioner/Bujinkan student/whatever.

I would suggest any Christian who is concerned (referring of course specifically to the OP) to research further the practices and traditions of the Kakuri Kirishitan and Hanare Kirishitan. An in-depth analysis there should assuage all doubts...


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Technically Ninjutsu would be more of a way of life rather than a religion per se. IMO anyway. You aren't worshiping anyone or anything (I hope) but rather accepting the philosophies as a base to live by.
> 
> Personally I believe the arts should be secular (separate from religion) just the same as politics, education etc as it can and most probably will detract from the teachings to approach it with pre-determined or conflicted mindsets. That's just my take on it though and may not sit well with everyone.


 
For many people religion is not separate from the other things in their lives though so it's impossible to separate their faith from their activities. Their whole lives are inbued with their faith and whatever they do during a day must be in the spirit of their faith. I think this separating parts of a human life into boxes is a modern Western possibly Christian American thing. Not a pop at America btw but a reflection of their wish to have religion separated from the State which reflects their beginning as a State.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 10, 2010)

Okay, let's see if we can break this down. 

First off, we need to define "Religion" here. And, probably predictibly, most are defining it according to the culture that they were raised in, rather than a larger look at the concept. So let's broaden things a bit, shall we?

Religion, in it's essence, is a source of governing values and morals providing a way of approaching, or living, your life. You may note that I'm not mentioning any form of Deity here. The reason for that is that although there is typically a central figure, or a group of central figures, they are materialistically only a way of expressing the teachings and lessons of the particular religion itself. So religion is really just a way to learn to live.

The methods that are used include stories, rituals, symbolic actions, specific attributes or tools and other items, and so on. These things, these lessons on life, give rise to a religion. After all, religion is our natural responce to "Who are we? Why are we here?" and other big, important questions.

Without getting into the concepts of the existance of God, Gods, or any other such, I would simply say that God is the answer to many of these questions in a religious sense. This of course gets into the concepts of faith versus proof, experience as individual proof, and so on, but that is not the discussion here. To head that potential tangent off, whatever an individuals personal relationship with God, Gods, or some other is, that is true and valid for them, and as such cannot be disproven. Nor should it be. But really, that's kinda beside the point of what a religion is.

So what is it? Well, a religion is a formalised system of lessons expressed through a belief system, and is not necessarily supernatural in form. These lessons are designed to teach the values of the religion, not the faith many associate with one. This is why someone may say "That's not very Christian of you...", which means it doesn't follow the lessons and values, not "that's not very supportive of the belief that Jesus was the Messiah, He died for your sins, that you may know the paradise that the Heavenly Father has prepared for you and all saved souls..."

Now, there are differences between various religions, obviously. The forms and rituals followed vary, as do obviously the beliefs it expresses itself through and by. But there are also differences between Eastern and Western religions (being very general here!). For example, Western religions are based on an external focal point (God, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed), using those as centralising concepts that the values and lessons are expressed through. Culturally, these religions tend to be exclusive (you can't follow more than one), mainly as each is purporting to have the answer... and if one has the answer, the other answers can't, by definition, be the right ones. The focus is on the individual, and their relationship with their expression of God (personal, as discussed earlier). Western cultures also tend to be focused on "guilt" as a controlling mechanism.

Eastern religions are more focused on the concepts of the world around them, with religions such as Shinto being a form of reverence to the natural world around you, and lessons taken from there, as well as reverence towards your ancestors (we'll come back to that...), Confucianism and Taoism being ways of approaching life with an ideal "perfect" behaviour (which is an expression of the underlying values and beliefs), Buddhism, which focuses on becoming almost as non-invasive into the world as possible. These concepts can be applied by one person easily (paying reverance to your ancestors while approaching life with an ideal behaviour, and so on) with no conflict. Whereas the Western approach focuses on the individual and a personal relationship with the Divine, an Eastern approach is more focused on placement within a group, and the controlling mechanism is "shame".

Now, when we are discussing the concept of the Bujinkan (or Ninjutsu, or any Japanese martial art) having religious aspects, overtones, influences, or anything else, these distinctions should be kept in mind. And, for the record DuskB4Dawn, religious aspects would be considered more likely than not in any old system, Katori Shinto and Shinto Muso Ryu both contain the religious concept of Shinto in their very names (with Katori being one of the two most famous Shinto Shrines in Japan, and Shinto Muso Ryu being founded by a member of the Katori Ryu), along with Kashima Shinryu (Kashima being the other major Shinto Shrine, and the founder being again a member of the Katori Ryu) are highly influenced by Shinto, others are very influenced by Buddhism, such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, and so on. There have been various religious aspects associated with different Ninjutsu traditions as well. Even the opening phrase of most Ninjutsu schools "Shikin Haramitsu Daikomyo" is described as a prayer from Kumogakure Ryu.

As a result, the Bujinkan looking to be a religious organisation doesn't actually impeach on Christian doctrine (Thou shalt have no Gods before me, and other doctrine) as the concept of "religion" is rather different to the Western variant. The other important thing to realise is the exact wording here... the Bujinkan is not looking to become a religion, per se, but a religious organisation. There's a subtle difference there, really. If you are Christian (or any other Western, exclusive doctrine religion), you are not then following another religion, you have simply become part of a separate organisation, not another religion. It's a small difference, but it's there.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 10, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Technically Ninjutsu would be more of a way of life rather than a religion per se. IMO anyway. You aren't worshiping anyone or anything (I hope) but rather accepting the philosophies as a base to live by.
> 
> Personally I believe the arts should be secular (separate from religion) just the same as politics, education etc as it can and most probably will detract from the teachings to approach it with pre-determined or conflicted mindsets. That's just my take on it though and may not sit well with everyone.



Ninjutsu does contain many shinto elements.
Do you have a kamidana in your dojo? Do you recite the ninja seishin? Those are the first things that spring to mind.


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## dbell (Dec 10, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> For many people religion is not separate from the other things in their lives though so it's impossible to separate their faith from their activities. Their whole lives are inbued with their faith and whatever they do during a day must be in the spirit of their faith. I think this separating parts of a human life into boxes is a modern Western possibly Christian American thing. Not a pop at America btw but a reflection of their wish to have religion separated from the State which reflects their beginning as a State.



I would have to agree with you Tez, there should be no separation from ones faith and the rest of their life activeties, they should be closely tied to each other, or in most cases, they are truly not following their faith (at least in the case of the Jewish faith, the Christian Faith, and the Muslim faiths).


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 10, 2010)

dbell said:


> I would have to agree with you Tez, there should be no separation from ones faith and the rest of their life activeties, they should be closely tied to each other, or in most cases, they are truly not following their faith (at least in the case of the Jewish faith, the Christian Faith, and the Muslim faiths).


 
As mentioned in the post by Sensei Parker, I think upbringing has a notable influence on thinking patterns. I'm of Indian origin raised with Eastern philosophies (Hinduism to be exact). The difference there is that at least within my own family, being multi-theistic is encouraged and supported and from a young age I was raised of the opinion that you should do the right thing because it's right, not because of any religious consequence you may face. With that in mind, while religion has it's place - and I'm not implying faith isn't important by any means - my personal approach is to remove it from most day to day activities. Again, these are purely my own beliefs. With regards to why I then posted it, I misread the original post I'm afraid and took it to mean that Bujinkan were trying to become their own religion, rather than just an organisation. 

Bruno, no I'm afraid I don't know the ninja seishin or the kamidana...


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## Hollywood1340 (Dec 10, 2010)

Are we talking YOUR Christianity or mine? Because I don't think they're the same here.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 11, 2010)

Hi Supra,

The Kamidana is a shrine to the Kami of the Dojo and the Ryu-ha, typically with portraits of the Master Instructors/Founder, depending on the system itself. Most Aikido Dojo have a portrait of Ueshiba, for instance. We, as you know, don't have one. 

The Ninja Seishin is a poem that is said to have been written by Takamatsu Sensei, which gives the values for studying the art, and is recited in Genbukan classes (although not any other organisations, as far as I am aware). It is recited in Japanese. Here is a link to the poem itself: http://www.shinjindojo.co.uk/resources/ninjaSeishin.asp

You may notice that that is where Kajowaraku gets his screen name from, I believe....



Hollywood1340 said:


> Are we talking YOUR Christianity or mine? Because I don't think they're the same here.


 
As I said, Hollywood1340, Western religions focus on an individual's relationship with the Divine, so it obviously won't be the same for anyone else. Out of interest, was this in reference to the OP, or the discussion as it continued?


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 11, 2010)

dbell said:


> I would have to agree with you Tez, there should be no separation from ones faith and the rest of their life activeties, they should be closely tied to each other, or in most cases, they are truly not following their faith (at least in the case of the Jewish faith, the Christian Faith, and the Muslim faiths).



I've had this discussion before in the sumo forum about throwing salt. Some people felt they could not practice sumo because some of it, like the salt throwing is religious in nature. I argue that as long as something is not a religious ritual for you, nothing prevents you from doing it. I would chuck salt because it is expected, not because I think it is a spiritual activity.

Otherwise, if I start a religion where shaking hands is a ritual, would you stop shaking people's hands because I say it is a religuous ritual?


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 11, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Supra,
> 
> The Kamidana is a shrine to the Kami of the Dojo and the Ryu-ha, typically with portraits of the Master Instructors/Founder, depending on the system itself. Most Aikido Dojo have a portrait of Ueshiba, for instance. We, as you know, don't have one.



Sensei,

If our dojo was to be a dedicated location solely used by our school, would we have a Kamidana? I've noticed that a lot of dojo have said portraits up but did not realise it was a shrine. 

Also, thank you for the link to the poem, would the following be an accurate translation?

_"The spirit of the Ninja; Body, Mind and Conscience as one      enduring all. This is the principle of the forbearing spirit. First bear  all     humiliation, denounce ill will and resentment, raising the  spirit to acquire     the virtue of patience. Take not the meaning of  'Nin' to be the blade     before the heart, but learning that the heart  of the flower is one of peace     and harmony, and like the love and  affection of a flower, there is happiness     in Peace. Consequently,  one's body will naturally evade the opponents'     sword, disappearing;  This is the miracle of Truth and Falsehood in     diversionary tactics.  For one's country, for Justice, using the elements     of Nature,  Earth, Water, Fire, Wind and Air to subdue one's opponent. This      being is the essence of the Ninja."_


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## Krevon (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm a Christian Minister and a practitioner Budo Taijutsu.  There is no worship of anything in the dojo.  What goes on in the dojo is about self discovery.  This translates of a christian life, for example, if someone were to have a salvation experience it's not enough to have that and hide out in the christian sub culture that has been created.

We strive in the dojo to learn technique and commit them to muscle memory.  We try to learn the concept of technique so it may be applied in any situation with as much fluidity as possible.  This same drive to learn more about Christ (or what religion you've chosen) and become intimately familiar.  It's in essence disciple ship.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I've had this discussion before in the sumo forum about throwing salt. Some people felt they could not practice sumo because some of it, like the salt throwing is religious in nature. I argue that as long as something is not a religious ritual for you, nothing prevents you from doing it. I would chuck salt because it is expected, not because I think it is a spiritual activity.
> 
> Otherwise, if I start a religion where shaking hands is a ritual, would you stop shaking people's hands because I say it is a religuous ritual?


 

How many people throw salt over their shoulder when it's spilt? Here it's very common and thought unlucky not to do it.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 11, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> How many people throw salt over their shoulder when it's spilt? Here it's very common and thought unlucky not to do it.



True. But in sumo, it is part of a religious practice, whereas here it is just non religious superstition which is not by default incompatible with religion.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 11, 2010)

Btw we don't have a dedicated dojo either.
Every class we hang the pictures and the scroll with the ninja seishin, and we remove them at the end of the class.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> True. But in sumo, it is part of a religious practice, whereas here it is just non religious superstition which is not by default incompatible with religion.


 

The Christian religion however frowns on people using superstitious practices so there is no reason for them not to take part in something that has no religious significance to them while they are still believing superstitions themselves. Which is worse from a Christian point of view, taking part in someone else religious practice as an act of respect for the other religion while preserving your own belief or taking part in a superstitious practice that is discouraged and often forbidden by your own religion?


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 11, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> True. But in sumo, it is part of a religious practice, whereas here it is just non religious superstition which is not by default incompatible with religion.


 
If you dont believe in something, its superstition. If you believe in it, its faith.


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## Omar B (Dec 11, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> As mentioned in the post by Sensei Parker, I think upbringing has a notable influence on thinking patterns. I'm of Indian origin raised with Eastern philosophies (Hinduism to be exact). The difference there is that at least within my own family, being multi-theistic is encouraged and supported and from a young age I was raised of the opinion that you should do the right thing because it's right, not because of any religious consequence you may face. With that in mind, while religion has it's place - and I'm not implying faith isn't important by any means - my personal approach is to remove it from most day to day activities. Again, these are purely my own beliefs. With regards to why I then posted it, I misread the original post I'm afraid and took it to mean that Bujinkan were trying to become their own religion, rather than just an organisation.
> 
> Bruno, no I'm afraid I don't know the ninja seishin or the kamidana...



This.

I was also raised in a Hindu household and freely took part in practices from other religions.  Besides, making BBT a religion pretty much sets the thing in stone, you won't have the art morphing as we go along like some arts.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 11, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Besides, making BBT a religion pretty much sets the thing in stone, you won't have the art morphing as we go along like some arts.



Thats not quite what is going on.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 11, 2010)

Omar B said:


> This.
> 
> I was also raised in a Hindu household and freely took part in practices from other religions.  Besides, making BBT a religion pretty much sets the thing in stone, you won't have the art morphing as we go along like some arts.



Sorry Omar, I don't get the first bit. This? Was there meant to be a word after that?


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## Omar B (Dec 11, 2010)

I quoted you ans said "this" because I was in total agreement.  We both have similar upbringings from the same culture and look on religion in a similar way.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Dec 11, 2010)

for me it would  be more a mysticism than a religious doctrine.
more about coming to know the natural life force around us and within us and being in harmony with that. 
And expressing that heightened awareness in your actions is what ninjutsu is all about for me.
It is not a ritual or some gestures but more the emptiness and completeness and the one universal truth. that is my personal interpretation.
I think that this kind of thinking may be some what similar to Shinto. If not that the spirits and ancestors have names and that everything has a spirit but the idea of a spiritual world that coexist with our own. you don't need to be part of a religious organization to follow those ideas. it is more a personal belief thus I call it mysticism.

for me Ninjutsu is a natural expression of this belief. it is not separate from your true self or a sin for self protection and survival. But a natural part of us. you should be empowered when practicing ninjutsu. not at odds with your own beliefs!


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## Rayban (Dec 11, 2010)

Its all very personal.  IMO Martial Arts is a journey of self discovery through practicing, understanding and wanting to learn a set of moral principles and disciplines to live by.  By the same token, religion is (supposed to be) a journey of self discovery through practicing, understanding and wanting to learn a set of moral principles and disciplines to live by.

Does this mean they are interchangeable? Maybe. It depends whether you are talking about institutionalised religion (churches, synagogue, mosques...etc) or as taking it what it is. 

i.e. a set of moral principles that you chose to live buy.  For example I am an Atheist who practices Ninjutsu.  Does this mean I am an immoral person who just likes fighting? Of course not, I have my own set of moral principles.  If my art was to become a recognised religion (like the Bujinkan may do) it would not deter me one iota.  I would still have my principles an continue training. 

As Sensei Parker said :



Chris Parker said:


> ...So what is it? Well, a religion is a formalised system of lessons expressed through a belief system, and is not necessarily supernatural in form. These lessons are designed to teach the values of the religion, not the faith many associate with one. This is why someone may say "That's not very Christian of you...", which means it doesn't follow the lessons and values, not "that's not very supportive of the belief that Jesus was the Messiah, He died for your sins, that you may know the paradise that the Heavenly Father has prepared for you and all saved souls..."



Religion is a man made institution which, as people, gives us the right believe what we want and practice what we want.  Self discovery is chosing which (if any or a combination of) path(s) to take.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 11, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I quoted you ans said "this" because I was in total agreement.  We both have similar upbringings from the same culture and look on religion in a similar way.



Ahh sorry I tend to be a bit slow in the mornings


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 12, 2010)

One of the reasons I personally see no issues with it is that my religious worldview is multitheist itself. Part Christian, part pagan, part shinto, and the rest is just me 
The best I can explain is that in a monotheist system, there is but 1 deity and his/ her name is XYZ. Like having 1 federal government. In a multitheist system, there is one collective of deities, containing multiple specialized entities, like the various agencies and administrations that make up the federal government.

In any case, to get back to the salt throwing.
From a Christian point of view, I would not be allowed to throw salt if I accept the value as a religious ritual or valid superstition. Otoh, I would be allowed to toss the salt if I see it as no more as a quaint ritual, or (and this is a guess) if I do it to not hurt your feelings because you believe it is a religious ritual or superstition.

Even if I were a devoted Christian, I'd see no conflict in bowing to the kamidana because in our organization it is expected and mandatory. For soke it would be a religious ritual whereas for you it could be just like table manners. You'd go through the motions in order to get along, just like you'd use the right glass for the right drink, or the correct fork at the appropriate time.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Dec 12, 2010)

this is something i found on the internet that has great reverence for me. im sure you are all familiar with this but i think it worth mention again. i especially like when takamatsu talks about shin-shin shin-gan, "the mind and eyes of god." for me it makes alot of sense. its why i dont like christianity and how peaple look for the correct morals by rules and doctrine and dont look within for thier own sense of righteousness. not a egotistical righteousness but an unbiased outlook were one can look at the world without prejudice. to see clearly. this is my interpretation.
perhaps religion doesn't belong anywere near ninjutsu but for me it only strengthens my beliefs. without it ninjutsu would not be ninjutsu.

Essence of Ninjutsu By Toshitsugu Takamatsu 33rd SÃ´ke, Togakure Ryu * ** Toshitsugu Takamatsu The heart of the martial arts is self-protection. However, the essence of self-protection lies in ninjutsu because ninjutsu also protects one's spirit. Therefore, without the proper spirit in martial training, one can be led to ruin. For example, medical technology is dedicated to saving life but the misuse of it can kill people. Eating and drinking are for nourishment. However, overeating harms the body. Politicians are responsible for the governing of countries and the protection of its citizens. When these politicians are greedy, ignorant, and afraid to commit their lives to their endeavors, they only bring about disorder and cause suffering. A religion, when it is sincere and steadfast, can inspire people to protect themselves, make their families thrive, and benefit the society. When it is corrupt, it destroys people and puts the nation in jeopardy. Therefore, if you are a master of the martial arts and practice ninjutsu, you will gain the most essential secret of all methods. This secret is called shin-shin shin-gan, "the mind and eyes of god." This is to know tendo, "the way of heaven." The truth of heaven excludes all evil spirits and is absolutely correct. People must have faith. This is the only justice which exists in heaven and in people. Wood, fire, soil, metal, water and spring, summer, fall, winter cannot exist without the earth. The five elemental manifestations and the four seasons balance the earth in the same manner as heaven is balanced by truth. If a person is honest, virtuous and faithful, he is walking on "the path of heaven". When he goes with the path of heaven, he is following the will of heaven. This is the mind and eyes of god. Therefore,a ninja has to be a sensible and righteous person. Ninjutsu methods of perseverance can also be understood as methods of perception. A ninja is always calm and never surprised by any situation. This is the Togakure Ryu martial way. Toshitsugu Takamatsu


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## Tanaka (Dec 12, 2010)

Religion in Eastern Culture is a bit different than what Western Culture views as religion. Religion in Eastern Culture usually originates as a philosophy. So they're more philosophically oriented. And of course you have later influences of different cults that add onto it. Many Eastern religious practitioners normally practice one religion and another religion(For example you might have Buddhist Christian), and have no problem with this. While commonly in Western view you have "professing of faith"  and you are either "This faith" or "That faith"  Not both. That is normally why I think Westerners have issues with religion when dealing with Eastern Martial arts. They think that they're going against their own religion by practicing in something that has a different religions principles.


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## ElfTengu (Dec 12, 2010)

'Ninjutsu' is the closest thing I have to a religion so I don't mind.

If people can put 'Jedi' on official census documents as their religion, then at least 'Ninja' has a clear factual origin.

As long as Soke doesn't start perfoming mass random wedding ceremonies at DKMS!


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## Muawijhe (Dec 17, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Even if I were a devoted Christian, I'd see no conflict in bowing to the kamidana because in our organization it is expected and mandatory. For soke it would be a religious ritual whereas for you it could be just like table manners. You'd go through the motions in order to get along, just like you'd use the right glass for the right drink, or the correct fork at the appropriate time.


 
In a related theme to this, in my early martial arts endeavors I studied at many different Judo dojo. In my first school, and many others, it was customary to bow to the Japan flag before and after class, to show respect to the country of origin of that which we were studying.

However, in a few other dojo, I remember the instructors making it a point to -not- bow to the Japan flag, for "as Americans, we do not bow before the symbols of another country". I saw their point, but found it rediculous. My bowing to the Japan flag was no more a sign of allegeance than shaking another father's hand was pledging him as my own father (roughly worded, hope it makes sense).


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 17, 2010)

Muawijhe said:


> However, in a few other dojo, I remember the instructors making it a point to -not- bow to the Japan flag, for "as Americans, we do not bow before the symbols of another country". I saw their point, but found it rediculous. My bowing to the Japan flag was no more a sign of allegeance than shaking another father's hand was pledging him as my own father (roughly worded, hope it makes sense).



Yes, this makes perfect sense.
Once you assume the role of student, your nationality becomes a moot point and you follow protocol because that is the respectful thing to do.

This is why we address people by their titles on the mat (sensei, renshi, ...) and by their name outside the martial arts context. On the mat I defer to their seniority and title. Outside, they are my peers.


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## Kajowaraku (Dec 18, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> This is why we address people by their titles on the mat (sensei, renshi, ...) and by their name outside the martial arts context. On the mat I defer to their seniority and title. Outside, they are my peers.


 
True and not true. While your own instructor might not mind or take insult, if you were to find yourself in the rather unlikely position of running into soke or one of the shihan while shopping for a nice new wet stone you probably would do best to not adres them by their first name. If anything last name with the appropriate suffix to express respect, and probably best (certainly if they would know you to be a member) by their appropriate title. In Japan it is not uncustom to refer to people by their title rather than name. Soke would be soke, whether he would be present or not, just as a teacher, professor or doctor would probably be adressed by his or her title rather than name. Even out of the direct context of praxis. 

Actually the notion of -on the mat traditional, of the mat casual- is a very Western, postmodern interpretation of traditional social interaction. Traditionally there is no real distinction. The paradox is that this doesn't really have any bearing on the relative quality of people, just on their relative position in the social interactions they have engaged in, be it mandatory or otherwise. 

Thing is that in the West, expecting this from your students is a quick lane to being labelled self-absorbed or something like that. To the Western mind it easily feels icky, but traditionaly the relationship between teacher and student is of one utmost respect, loyalty and devotion. Not one of peers, but rather that between a father and his son. 

Personally I feel this is complex matter to fully understand, and often underestimated or ignored by Western practioners. Koryu demands determination and devotion. There is no other way. 

Personally I would never demand or expect this of anybody, and given my relative inexperience it would probably feel moer than just a bit awkward too. I'm a Westerner too afterall. But that is not really the point here. The point is that the art we train in is distinctly not modern, not Western.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 18, 2010)

Rest assured that I would not do that 
One of the differences (other than their respective status within the organization is that I do not know outside of Genbukan context. Whereas I sometimes see Renshi and you in a more social context.

It is also worth noting (in my inexperienced opinion) that westerners as a people have more real social contact with one another that the Japanese. Maintaining the strong hierarchy that comes natural to the Japanese is mutually exlusive with having the more social interactions that exist between us westerners.

Actually, I think it would be possible, and even accepted, but that would require of the 'higher ups' that they maintain their distance in all their social interaction with anyone who has dealings with them. And even then they would have to allow for the fact that in our society, family comes first.

So on the whole, the compromise that we have in distinguishing between on-mat and off-mat is a way to allow the traditional organization to exist in our society without too much of a clash. And I realize that this only works when all people involved understand the reasons for the compromise. It goes without saying that I would never address Soke by his first name.

The internet is similarly a grey area. For example, I got to know Shihan Troy Wideman here on MT where everybody is rather informal. And not knowing his status within Genbukan, I addressed him by his first name in the communications I had with him (at least I think so. I could have used 'Mr. Wideman' but I don't remember). And from the communications I had with him after that, that was not an issue. Yet if I would meet him in real life (on the mat or off) I would never presume that the informality of the internet would be applicable.

If anything, blending the Japanese traditional arts with our western culture, in a way that does not damage either, is an everlasting challenge.


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## Kajowaraku (Dec 18, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Rest assured that I would not do that


 
I sort of presumed you wouldn't. It was merely an example. 

You are of course right in what you say from a macrosociological point of view. However, that is not exactly what I was getting at. Let me be a bit more specific. Speaking for myself I know that the single most powerful boost in my martial arts came not directly from training more, but from the sudden switch that caused me to fully devote myself to Sensei, and put all other activities (yes, family and work somewhat excepted) on the background. I effectively have no other hobbies than that which I find in Genbukan. Even more so, I don't need any other hobbies, they would simply get in the way. 

Now, if I were to distinguish between on and off mat modes of interaction/communication I would not have that problem. But when I stopped making that distinction my energy multiplied, and I found myself training at every possible time and place. By making the distinction, for me, it would somehow diminish my martial arts to the status of "just a hobby". Now, once again, i'm not judging the good man for having hobbies outside of genbukan, or whatever. I'm merely stating how it can cause internal conflict and how it can be confusing, thus eroding the pure mind (or better: by "moving the heart", while it is best left "immovable") needed for good martial arts. 

This is another aspect of how transposing TJMA to the modern day west can pose a challenge, or at least how it has posed a challenge for myself. Does that make any sense?



Bruno@MT said:


> It is also worth noting (in my inexperienced opinion) that westerners as a people have more real social contact with one another that the Japanese. Maintaining the strong hierarchy that comes natural to the Japanese is mutually exlusive with having the more social interactions that exist between us westerners.
> 
> Actually, I think it would be possible, and even accepted, but that would require of the 'higher ups' that they maintain their distance in all their social interaction with anyone who has dealings with them.


 
I don't fully agree. It does not necessarily mean there has to be a distance. It means finding a different approach to get closer to each other. The teacher-student relation can be very close and very personal. Formal and polite languange and interaction doesn't change that. On top of that, Japanese society has pseudo ritualised interactions where status suddenly becomes irrelevant and where grunt can be candid to his superiors. Also, there are plenty of social interactions in Japanese society, it just tends to be more group organised, and more around work related groups than simply around being buddies. Social interaction is probably less unconditional, and more regulated, but certainly not less, nor less intense. on the contrary even I might guess. Let's face it, dwindling social interactions (not counting the net) is a phenomenon that has also reached us here in the west. People increasingly prefer to lock themselves in their houses with a sixpack, a pile of leisure electronics and a bag of nachos.


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## Muawijhe (Dec 20, 2010)

Kajowaraku said:


> You are of course right in what you say from a macrosociological point of view. However, that is not exactly what I was getting at. Let me be a bit more specific. Speaking for myself I know that the single most powerful boost in my martial arts came not directly from training more, but from the sudden switch that caused me to fully devote myself to Sensei, and put all other activities (yes, family and work somewhat excepted) on the background. I effectively have no other hobbies than that which I find in Genbukan. Even more so, I don't need any other hobbies, they would simply get in the way.
> 
> However this devotion to following my direct teacher also has a weird downside. Somehow I find myself struggling to deal with the fact he seems to see no issues in combining teaching traditional martial arts with satanic music, marketeering and various other hobbies, agendas and distractions. While family and work are pure virtues in my old-fashioned thick skull; playing DJ in a deep gothic scene seems to be less fitting.


 
For me, my instructor constantly reminds us to have hobbies and interests outside of the martial arts; while at the same time he encourages us to adapt and apply the mindset and strategies we learn in martial arts to these extracurricular activities. 

He occasionally will say something to the likes of, "I'm a person too, and though I dedicate a lot of my life to this art, I still get excited to go home for my new skateboard that came in the mail, or spend time with my life, or go to a concert." I don't skateboard, nor do I have a wife, and I'm fairly certain our music tastes are quite different. But I get his points. 



> Let's face it, dwindling social interactions (not counting the net) is a phenomenon that has also reached us here in the west. People increasingly prefer to lock themselves in their houses with a sixpack, a pile of leisure electronics and a bag of nachos.


 
Whilst a whole nother can of worms, I agree with you. Just go to the local mall shopping center and watch people. The place can be crowded (especially this time of year with holiday shopping), shoulder to shoulder, and most will be intereacting with electronic devices to distant people rather than those right next to them.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

Wow... A good one here!!

Well Me personally I had attended a few classes and a camp ran by a Bujinkan group that is established in a church.. Now to me I was fine with it, but Im not exactly christian so I had to mind my self a little and not get into any religious debates.. I found that they are great people that are training hard and with a good teacher to guide them..
I have no problem with Christianity in Bujinkan...

However, If Bujinkan makes a jump to a religious organization for tax breaks.. Well Im not to cool with that... Religion is not a coupon for tax but it seems to be used that way. Not a good move if you ask me.

Hmm.. This is a hard one!


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> However, If Bujinkan makes a jump to a religious organization for tax breaks.. Well Im not to cool with that... Religion is not a coupon for tax but it seems to be used that way. Not a good move if you ask me.
> 
> Hmm.. This is a hard one!



You don't know much about Japan, do you?
A couple of things. First, taxes in Japan are incredibly complex (much moreso than in Western countries) and the IRS in Japan is very stronghanded. If they suspect a company of wrongdoings, they raid the place like a US swat team would raid a meth lab.

There are various really practical reasons why being recognized as a religious organization is a good strategy. For example, if you want to pass down artefacts related to the organization (antique swords, scrolls, etc), they would not be subject to inheritance tax. there are other things as well.

Now, the religious aspect should NOT be looked at through western eyes. Every traditional Japanese martial arts organization or even dojo can be considered a religious organization. It will have a kamidana (which is a shinto shrine/altar) which will be tended to and which people will bow to at the beginning and end of class. As such, it already IS a religious organization, whether it is formally registered as such or not.

Religion in Japan is culturally different than religion here.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> You don't know much about Japan, do you?



Bruno.. I would suggest you not make comments like this.. It seems rude.. So far Im not quite into your responses to anything! You have a way of sounding rude in almost every post Ive come across with you.. 

And by the way Ive read the post and your reiteration on your prior replies is unnecessary..

Thank you


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## Tanaka (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Bruno.. I would suggest you not make comments like this.. It seems rude.. So far Im not quite into your responses to anything! You have a way of sounding rude in almost every post Ive come across with you..
> 
> And by the way Ive read the post and your reiteration on your prior replies is unnecessary..
> 
> Thank you


Hes actually being polite.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 3, 2011)

So you read that post. Then why should you judge Bujinkan based on your western ideas of what 'religious organization' means? It is a Japanese organization, located in Japan, headed by a Japanese, and doing something that is perfectly normal By Japanese norms. Saying that you are 'not cool with that' shows that you don't understand what is really going on or why the Japanese (and the Bujinkan people themselves) don't think this is shocking. Or you do understand, but you still think they are 'wrong' based on what you think the words 'religion' and 'tax' mean.

It's not like they are doing this because of nefarious reasons, or that the bujinkan will suddenly become a church. 

In fact it would be more correct to describe it as a religious organization to begin with, rather than a secular one, given that it, like many other traditional schools, houses a shinto shrine and embodies shinto rituals in the dojo etiquette.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

I get all of what you said... I was expressing my opinion to juzathecloud's question....


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## oaktree (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Wow... A good one here!!
> 
> Well Me personally I had attended a few classes and a camp ran by a Bujinkan group that is established in a church.. Now to me I was fine with it, but Im not exactly christian so I had to mind my self a little and not get into any religious debates.. I found that they are great people that are training hard and with a good teacher to guide them..
> I have no problem with Christianity in Bujinkan...
> ...


 
Hi Kumori
 I can not speak on behalf of Mr.Hatsumi only my opinion.
Taxes in Japan can be complex and high.
Also the thought of the government taking your collection from your estate which is essentially yours can also be problematic.

Mr.Hatsumi decided to claim his organization under religious status. That is his right and legally valid. Many other organizations have done similar things.


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