# Creating better members of society is the goal of all martial arts



## Freestyler777 (Mar 12, 2007)

Really.  When I think logically, I realize, hardened criminals do not go to martial art schools to learn streetfighting.  Martial arts are for positive people who want self-realization and self-knowledge, not to learn how to hurt people.  The three axioms of Judo are 'best use of mind and body' 'mutual welfare and benefit' and 'self perfection'.  I think that is a concise world view.  As one karate teacher said, 'If you want self defense, carry a stick with you!'  Martial arts are the way to understand yourself as a microcasm of the whole universe, not to create fighters.  That is my opinion.  Please reply and tell me what you think.


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## terryl965 (Mar 12, 2007)

In some aspect I would agree but Martial Arts is first and foremost about fighting in the older years. But for todays world I would agree with you.


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## exile (Mar 12, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Really.  When I think logically, I realize, hardened criminals do not go to martial art schools to learn streetfighting.  Martial arts are for positive people who want self-realization and self-knowledge, not to learn how to hurt people.  The three axioms of Judo are 'best use of mind and body' 'mutual welfare and benefit' and 'self perfection'.  I think that is a concise world view.  As one karate teacher said, 'If you want self defense, carry a stick with you!'  Martial arts are the way to understand yourself as a microcasm of the whole universe, not to create fighters.  That is my opinion.  Please reply and tell me what you think.




Well... since you ask...

 I study MAs for the purpose of self-defense. My art, Taekwondo, is a Korean variant of the Okinawan karate that was devised and used by a circle of fighters who were the unarmed bodyguards of the King of Okinawa in the last decades of the 19th c. There is absolutely nothing about the combat system that I've learned that bears on my being a better person, or a worse person, or anything else other than defending myself against a violent attack and being the one who walks away at the end. 

MAs are supposed to make me understand myself as a `microcosm of the whole universe'? Exactly what is there about TKD, or any other karate-based art, or Southern Mantis, or Silat, or anything else, that tells me anything about myself as such a `microcosm'? What does this phrase actually mean, when you get down to it? In what respect am I a `microcosm' of the universe? I'm part of it, certainly, but what I use to understand myself as part of that universe is what knowledge I have about physics and biology, particularly the part of biology that allows me to take in incoming information through my senses from a variety of sources and compute, without any conscious thought at all, a picture of the larger world I live in. What does the fact that I can break a stack of boards with a knifehand, or can read, from the patterns I've learned, a quick effective way to break a vicious assailant's collarbone, have to do with understanding my place in the universe?

My being a better, or worse, person is a reflection of my values. The martial arts&#8212;the fighting systems that we learn and practice&#8212;are as value-neutral as downhill skiing, calligraphy or learning about the differences in recent Burgundy vintages. What do any of these activities have to do with my moral core? And why would MAs be any more relevant than those activities? I developed my values more than half a century before I started studying MAs. Why would anything I learned about the effective fighting systems that originated among the unarmed elite bodyguards&#8212;Sokon Matsumura, Anko Itosu and Yatsusune Azato, especially&#8212;of King Sho Tai, the last king of Okinawa, add to, or detract from, the values I worked out on the basis of 55 years of living before I took up martial arts? Would you care to elaborate on your thinking here?


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 13, 2007)

Thank you for the reply.  I did not mean to say that martial arts are _not_ self-defense, I know Tae Kwon Do and all styles of Karate are effective fighting arts.  What I'm saying is, there is more to the martial arts than simply fighting.  As Mas Oyama said, and he was the founder of Kyokushin, 'the purpose of karate does not lie in victory or defeat but in the perfection of one's character'.  And he was a hard-style karate master.  

When I say 'man is a microcasm of the universe', I really mean it!  There is a chinese proverb, 'Man is heaven and earth in minature'.  When you realize that we are all part of the same universe, then you learn to let go of hatred or endearment and simply act indifferently to life and death, since both are good.  This is the reason why the samurais learned Zen, so they would be indifferent to life and death and therefore fearless on the battlefield.

And I do not agree that martial arts are value-neutral like skiing and calligraphy.  Even combat sports like Judo have a certain ethos that implies a striving for perfection, not to learn how to ghoul people.  Without resorting to semantics, 'martial art' means 'war/military art'  and 'art' can be thought of as 'expression'.  Certainly art is not value-neutral!

And to reply to your last point, while it is true that most of your values are formed early in life, before you study MA, Karate (or sport Judo) definately has an effect on one's outlook on life, ability to cooperate with others, the need to act impartially, the need to show deference to those not as trained as you or reverence to your teachers, etc...

My last quote will be from the father of American Tae Kwon Do (I've memorized hundreds of quotes) Joon Rhee "without philosophy, TKD is just streetfighting"

I hope that gives you my perspective on the situation.  Thank you, and please reply.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 13, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Really.  When I think logically, I realize, hardened criminals do not go to martial art schools to learn streetfighting.



Different arts are going to draw different sorts of people.  I imagine the sort of person most likely to be a violent criminal isn't going to be found doing tai chi in the park, white collar criminals maybe 

But a boxing gym?  Or a Muay Thai gym?  Maybe.

Of course just about all gyms will not let some stuff in the door.  Wearing gang colors in a boxing gym would hopefully be a no no.




> Martial arts are for positive people who want self-realization and self-knowledge, not to learn how to hurt people.



But...  I want to know how to hurt people...?

I'd say most martial arts folk do, some even take it farther and get downright nasty with what they want to learn to do.  Bite, attack the groin, eyes, throat, etc.  Some I imagine even fantasy about some "thug" giving them the opportunity to "defend themeslves" ina rather violent manner.


But following your same basic logic, that it is for pleasant people not looking to hurt others, I reason that the ab-doer is good for society as well


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 13, 2007)

I agree you will find hardened criminals in a boxing or Muay Thai gym, but that is not the point.  My point is that martial arts are more than just streetfighting.  The lessons you learn in the dojo or academy, and just the training and socialization helps you in the 99.9% of your time that you are not fighting in the street.  Martial Arts is about life, not death.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 13, 2007)

Boxing and Muay Thai ARE martial arts.


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 13, 2007)

Let me reply to my own post:

Maybe we should distinguish our terms here.  Perhaps it would be better to differentiate the different arts into three categories:

A) Combat sports, such as Judo
B) Traditional Martial Arts, such as Karate and TKD
C) Combatives/Self-Defense, such as JKD or Krav Maga

Combat sports are for athletes, MA is for people who want self defense _and_ an ethical ideal at the same time, and Combatives are for people interested in no-frills self-defense tactics, and are often soldiers or police.  

I hope that helps.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 13, 2007)

All that stuff is what YOU bring to the martial arts, not what the arts impart ON you. Im sure runners, yoga practicioners etc. can say thet their sport/art is a vehicle for self-realization too. When you boil it down, the average MA practiconer goes to class 1-2 times a week for an hour+ and moves his body around. How thats supposed to make you "one with the universe" is beyond me. What makes any MA teacher an expert in that anyways? Their plate is full enough teaching people how to punch and kick.


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 13, 2007)

I agree, any activity can be self-knowledge.  The point is, martial arts are not only self-defense, there's more to them than just that.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 13, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> I agree, any activity can be self-knowledge.  The point is, martial arts are not only self-defense, there's more to them than just that.



As is any other activity.  It is whatever you make it, that has nothing to do with the activity, but the people doing it.


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 13, 2007)

To some extent you are right, but I still think martial arts should and does have a spiritual/ethical value to it.


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## Catalyst (Mar 14, 2007)

I don't know if I'm answering the question that was asked, and I apologize if I'm not.

I got involved in the Martial Arts for 2 basic reasons:
to rebuild my body after an accident
to learn to defend myself - in a fight or flight response, flight is no longer an option, I'm gonna have to stand my ground and fight, and I'd like to know how.

The above were the primary intentions - but there have been corollary impacts that I've taken away from my Martial Training.

There's a sign that hangs on our Dojang wall that lists the values we're supposed to strive for, examples are:

I will be courteous at all times
I will treat everyone with respect
I will preservere in everthing I do
I will have an indomitable spirit
I will act with integrity
I will have self-control

These are unqualified statements.  
They don't say - I will only give respect to the 3rd Dan or anyone else that can kick my butt.  It says to respect everyone.

Since I've gotten involved in MA, I actually try to apply these values outside the Dojang - at work, at home, with the snooty store clerk , and in other places/situations.

Whether someone wants to incorporate these values into their life is up to them.  They're not the primary intention for me, but I also can't deny that I think they can have a a positive influence on someone's life.


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## Shaderon (Mar 14, 2007)

I think that you CAN further yourself in a spiritual way using an MA but you'll find that most do not set out to acheive this.   The only ways I can actually think of to develop spiritually is by learning more about how your mind and body work together, learning more about other people and how they react under certain circumstances and developing your instincts.

These things do come from the arts, and they do develop your spirit, but ALL experiences develop your spirit no matter where they come from so then you could say that driving a car is spritual.... if it brings your mind, spirit and body together to learn.... then no matter what your intention or what you are doing, it's spiritual learning.

So yes you do develop spiritually.... but as they say... what's new?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 14, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Really. When I think logically, I realize, hardened criminals do not go to martial art schools to learn streetfighting.


 
Ever hear of the Triads, Chinese mafia or the Yakuza.


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## tellner (Mar 14, 2007)

When Ajarn Chai first came to the US he started teaching Muay Thai to a bunch of guys who worked hard and fought hard. They liked what he was teaching. Called themselves "Angels". A while later he got visits from the police and the FBI asking why he was teaching Hell's Angels to fight. It was a bit embarrassing....


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## Shaderon (Mar 14, 2007)

tellner said:


> When Ajarn Chai first came to the US he started teaching Muay Thai to a bunch of guys who worked hard and fought hard. They liked what he was teaching. Called themselves "Angels". A while later he got visits from the police and the FBI asking why he was teaching Hell's Angels to fight. It was a bit embarrassing....


 

lol quality!!!


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## CoryKS (Mar 14, 2007)

tellner said:


> When Ajarn Chai first came to the US he started teaching Muay Thai to a bunch of guys who worked hard and fought hard. They liked what he was teaching. Called themselves "Angels". A while later he got visits from the police and the FBI asking why he was teaching Hell's Angels to fight. It was a bit embarrassing....


 
I'll say it's embarrassing - there were Hell's Angels who didn't know how to fight?!


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