# Knives



## guy b. (Oct 2, 2015)

Which design of knives do you use and why?


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## wckf92 (Oct 2, 2015)

I think most would answer in reference for their own lineage(?). I'm guessing that most lineages have very specific characteristics regarding their knives.


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## GiYu - Todd (Oct 2, 2015)

~4" folding knife that can confidently be opened with one hand.  I've tried several brands/styles over the years.  Main features I look for are accessiblility (how the clip is mounted), opening ease (but not TOO easy), handle design with something to stop my hand from contacting the blade if it's wet.  Weight is a slight factor, but secondary to the others.  Spring assist is an added benefit for confident opening.


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## Mephisto (Oct 2, 2015)

I own lots of knives but for every day carry (edc) I go with something plain and multifunctional. Why? You're more likely to need a knife as a tool than as a weapon not to mention legal ramifications of using a specialized, expensive, "fighting" blade. If you ever have to defend your self your weapon choice can be just as important as the situation/scenario in which you used it, if you end up in court. If it's a clear open and shut case of self defense and you acted unquestionably within the law you might not get charges pressed and might only have to give an explanation to the police. But if you end up in court it's a different story. A prosecuting attorney may try to paint you as a trouble maker/vigilante/paranoid nut/ ect. If the weapon you carry such as a karambit has a notorious reputation you might end up in trouble. I recommend a blade that can be found at a local sports or camping store or perhaps your local gun shop as long as the blade isn't too specialized.


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## PiedmontChun (Oct 2, 2015)

I read the OP's question as referring to the Bart Cham Dao or The Eight-Cutting Broadswords weapon form found in majority of Wing Chun lineages.
Am I right?


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## geezer (Oct 2, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I read the OP's question as referring to the* Bart Cham Dao or The Eight-Cutting Broadswords *weapon form found in majority of Wing Chun lineages.
> Am I right?



Yeah, that's how I read it. My lineage has it's roots in WT. Our BCD are smallish and somewhat pointed with a straight back, level from the back of the handle to the point. The smallish size is to facilitate our internal rotating movements without risking a cut to our own arms, the point is for thrusting and stabbing, and the straight line down the spine from handle to point aids in tip awareness for stabbing.

Here are a pair that look like what we use:

http://cdn3.volusion.com/ckv9e.ymqc3/v/vspfiles/photos/Z-BJD-EWC-LT-S11-440C-LG-B-4.jpg?1428481788

BTW I'm way too cheap to own a decent pair like that. I use a similarly shaped pair of cheap trainers. Some day....


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## guy b. (Oct 2, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I read the OP's question as referring to the Bart Cham Dao or The Eight-Cutting Broadswords weapon form found in majority of Wing Chun lineages.
> Am I right?



Yes of course, I mean the Baat Jaam Dao


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## guy b. (Oct 2, 2015)

If you look in the which came first? thread I put some reseacrh about use of double knives in China over the period when wing chun appeared. Interestingly many of these are quite long, out and out stabbling weapons, quite different to modern wing chun BJD.

Does you BJD form emphasise chopping or stabbing? What shape are your knives? 

WSL VT uses a chopping type blade and some are quite poorly designed from the point of view of real functionality, particularly cheaper training blades. Does this matter in a training blade?


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## wckf92 (Oct 2, 2015)

guy b. said:


> If you look in the which came first? thread I put some reseacrh about use of double knives in China over the period when wing chun appeared. Interestingly many of these are quite long, out and out stabbling weapons, quite different to modern wing chun BJD.
> 
> Does you BJD form emphasise chopping or stabbing? What shape are your knives?
> 
> WSL VT uses a chopping type blade and some are quite poorly designed from the point of view of real functionality, particularly cheaper training blades. Does this matter in a training blade?



Chopping, not so much. But I suppose that depends on the definition of chopping. I do know and have seen pictures of some lineages' knives that are shaped to "chop" vs stab, etc.


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## wckf92 (Oct 2, 2015)

guy b. said:


> WSL VT uses a chopping type blade and some are quite poorly designed from the point of view of real functionality, particularly cheaper training blades. Does this matter in a training blade?



I can't say. Don't know much about WSL's knives or knives training/curriculum. Personally, I think training knives should closely if not exactly resemble combat knives.


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## GiYu - Todd (Oct 2, 2015)

Sorry.  My mind was on carry knives.

Carry on...


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## Danny T (Oct 2, 2015)

We train with a BJD similar to what Geezer showed.
We don't chop we crash and thrust forward. Similar to empty hands.


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## guy b. (Oct 2, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> Chopping, not so much. But I suppose that depends on the definition of chopping. I do know and have seen pictures of some lineages' knives that are shaped to "chop" vs stab, etc.



Chopping as in use of edge vs point


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## yak sao (Oct 2, 2015)

geezer said:


> Here are a pair that look like what we use:
> 
> http://cdn3.volusion.com/ckv9e.ymqc3/v/vspfiles/photos/Z-BJD-EWC-LT-S11-440C-LG-B-4.jpg?1428481788
> 
> *BTW I'm way too cheap to own a decent pair like that. I use a similarly shaped pair of cheap trainers. Some day*....



I've got that exact pair of knives geezer, they are spectacular. Like you, I'm a bit cheap but my set was discounted because of a slight imperfection in the finish ( it's a small smudge about the size of a quarter, next to the tang).


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## drop bear (Oct 3, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> I can't say. Don't know much about WSL's knives or knives training/curriculum. Personally, I think training knives should closely if not exactly resemble combat knives.



Why?

I would go the other way and be proficient with the concept that way if I had to use a knife I wasn't familiar with I could.


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## wckf92 (Oct 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Why?
> 
> I would go the other way and be proficient with the concept that way if I had to use a knife I wasn't familiar with I could.



Good for you dude. I can accomplish the same thing in my way. Kind of like shooting/firearms...once you learn and ingrain the fundamentals you can carry those fundamentals to whatever firearm you happen to be using....vice having to shoot a bunch of different ones.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 3, 2015)

guy b. said:


> If you look in the which came first? thread I put some reseacrh about use of double knives in China over the period when wing chun appeared. Interestingly many of these are quite long, out and out stabbling weapons, quite different to modern wing chun BJD.
> 
> Does you BJD form emphasise chopping or stabbing? What shape are your knives?
> 
> WSL VT uses a chopping type blade and some are quite poorly designed from the point of view of real functionality, particularly cheaper training blades. Does this matter in a training blade?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Double knives were common in southern styles. Hung ga, CLF and wc have double knives. Usage and shape vary with families and styles.While Ip Man got his start with another teacher- good analysis will show that Ip Man's wing chun is different from that of his first teacher. Not likely that he made it up himself. He made the claim,credible to me,that Leung Bik-from Leung Jan's family taught him his advanced  wing chun.

Ip Man named his knives- meaningfully- bot jam do. Bot is 8 in Cantonese. Common misinterpretation is that there are 8 jam motions.the bot is in the details of the motions.

IM was stingy in teaching the bjd-only about 4 of his students were taught the bjd by IM himself. Others learned from 2 of the four. Still others made up their own motions-IMO.

While there are many cutting and chopping motions- there are others including stabbing


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## Vajramusti (Oct 3, 2015)

guy b. said:


> If you look in the which came first? thread I put some reseacrh about use of double knives in China over the period when wing chun appeared. Interestingly many of these are quite long, out and out stabbling weapons, quite different to modern wing chun BJD.
> 
> Does you BJD form emphasise chopping or stabbing? What shape are your knives?
> 
> WSL VT uses a chopping type blade and some are quite poorly designed from the point of view of real functionality, particularly cheaper training blades. Does this matter in a training blade?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Double knives were common in southern styles. Hung ga, CLF and wc have double knives. Usage and shape vary with families and styles.While Ip Man got his start with another teacher- good analysis will show that Ip Man's wing chun is different from that of his first teacher. Not likely that he made it up himself. He made the claim,credible to me,that Leung Bik-from Leung Jan's family taught him his advanced  wing chun.

Ip Man named his knives- meaningfully- bot jam do. Bot is 8 in Cantonese. Common misinterpretation is that there are 8 jam motions.the bot is in the details of the motions.

IM was stingy in teaching the bjd-only about 4 of his students were taught the bjd by IM himself. Others learned from 2 of the four. Still others made up their own motions-IMO.

While there are many cutting and chopping motions- there are others including stabbing


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## geezer (Oct 3, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> .
> IM was stingy in teaching the bjd-only about 4 of his students were taught the bjd by IM himself.



My old sifu is also very stingy in his teaching of his BCD form. I learned some of it. Not all. Regardless, I believe that movements must be practiced and tested against partners, the more the better. Otherwise, the movements become unreliable. With so few being taught, how many can actually find even _one_ training partner to develop usable skill? To be honest, I have more confidence in my _Escrima_ for weapons application. It has been tested. I learned from people who _have _used it. Stuff that I hope to never have to use myself, but I could if I had too.

By contrast, I value the BCD more for what it lends to my empty-handed WC.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 3, 2015)

geezer said:


> My old sifu is also very stingy in his teaching of his BCD form. I learned some of it. Not all. Regardless, I believe that movements must be practiced and tested against partners, the more the better. Otherwise, the movements become unreliable. With so few being taught, how many can actually find even _one_ training partner to develop usable skill? To be honest, I have more confidence in my _Escrima_ for weapons application. It has been tested. I learned from people who _have _used it. Stuff that I hope to never have to use myself, but I could if I had too.
> 
> By contrast, I value the BCD more for what it lends to my empty-handed WC.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We cant walk around with bjd-s these  gays. However good bjd usage enhances body coordination  and can help with short weapon usage including sticks.


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## guy b. (Oct 4, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Double knives were common in southern styles. Hung ga, CLF and wc have double knives. Usage and shape vary with families and styles.While Ip Man got his start with another teacher- good analysis will show that Ip Man's wing chun is different from that of his first teacher. Not likely that he made it up himself. He made the claim,credible to me,that Leung Bik-from Leung Jan's family taught him his advanced  wing chun.



I think the most recent conclusion on Leung Jan is that he only had one son (Leung Chun, who died young) and that Leung Bik probably didn't exist. Who then was YMs later teacher? Did such a person exist at all? It is certain that YM only had 3 years with Chan Wah Shun from a very young age. His most important verified teacher then is Wu Chung Sok, an early student of CWS. Beyond this there is not much solid info. Did he learn more wing chun at a later date? I don't think that important



> Ip Man named his knives- meaningfully- bot jam do. Bot is 8 in Cantonese. Common misinterpretation is that there are 8 jam motions.the bot is in the details of the motions.
> 
> IM was stingy in teaching the bjd-only about 4 of his students were taught the bjd by IM himself. Others learned from 2 of the four. Still others made up their own motions-IMO.
> 
> While there are many cutting and chopping motions- there are others including stabbing



As far as I understand it, YM did not know or did not properly explain why the 8. There is a lot of speculation but I have not heard a fully convincing answer. Lots of people cite the 8 character shape regarding knife orientation.

Knife derived from YM that I have seem is primarily a blade not point style. A few stabbing motions is all. Interesting given changes in how the knives were configured predominantly during the lifes of Leung Jan and Yip Man, respectively.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 4, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I think the most recent conclusion on Leung Jan is that he only had one son (Leung Chun, who died young) and that Leung Bik probably didn't exist. Who then was YMs later teacher? Did such a person exist at all? It is certain that YM only had 3 years with Chan Wah Shun from a very young age. His most important verified teacher then is Wu Chung Sok, an early student of CWS. Beyond this there is not much solid info. Did he learn more wing chun at a later date? I don't think that important
> 
> 
> 
> ...


=========================================

You have your views -that's ok. But IM did teach key students  of the knives-why the bot. You have not seen Ho Kam Ming using the knives and are not likely to.;
Stabbing and cutting are not mutually exclusive. motions


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## geezer (Oct 4, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I think the most recent conclusion on Leung Jan is that he only had one son (Leung Chun, who died young) and that Leung Bik probably didn't exist. Who then was YMs later teacher? Did such a person exist at all? It is certain that YM only had 3 years with Chan Wah Shun from a very young age. His most important verified teacher then is Wu Chung Sok, an early student of CWS..



Granted the scarcity of reliable records from that period, the most recent speculation is still just that .... _speculation._ Unless you have access to new information, "recent" doesn't mean correct. Here's some more topics for speculation:

Who really wrote Shakespeare's work? Some anonymous British royal of the period? Was it time traveling Jack the Ripper? Did he also shoot JFK?  Is Obama a citizen and a Christian ...or a socialist muslim from outer space? And of course, we all know that the CIA blew up the twin towers. But why?

So tell me more about this guy _Wu Chung Sok_. He's one I haven't heard of. I always understood that after Chan Wah Shun's passing, Yip Man was tutored by his Si hing, Ng Chun So and his brother, Ng Siu Lo, the senior students of Chan. This information was written down by GM Yip late in his life.


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## guy b. (Oct 4, 2015)

geezer said:


> Granted the scarcity of reliable records from that period, the most recent speculation is still just that .... _speculation._ Unless you have access to new information, "recent" doesn't mean correct. Here's some more topics for speculation:
> 
> Who really wrote Shakespeare's work? Some anonymous British royal of the period? Was it time traveling Jack the Ripper? Did he also shoot JFK?  Is Obama a citizen and a Christian ...or a socialist muslim from outer space? And of course, we all know that the CIA blew up the twin towers. But why?



These are all indeed topics for speculation.It is interesting to speculate of course, but as a skeptic I am most interested in eliminating the unlikely and substituting the likely, removing the superfluous and substituting the relevant. For me, I don't mind if YM made up big parts of wing chun based on some teaching he received as a child and young man, fed through later experience. In many ways this seems more likely than some other accounts, especially given their close similarity to martial takes from 1930s fiction. Things like the swords of wing chun (form and function) provide interesting clues in this direction. 

I think it is an important thing to do because nothing is more inimical to the open and effective passing on of the system than old tales with no basis in fact, speculation posing as knowledge, and received tradition masquerading as fact. 



> So tell me more about this guy _Wu Chung Sok_. He's one I haven't heard of. I always understood that after Chan Wah Shun's passing, Yip Man was tutored by his Si hing, Ng Chun So



Same guy. Ng/Wu Chun(g) So/Sok.


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## guy b. (Oct 4, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> =========================================
> 
> You have your views -that's ok. But IM did teach key students  of the knives-why the bot. You have not seen Ho Kam Ming using the knives and are not likely to.;
> Stabbing and cutting are not mutually exclusive. motions



Why are the wing chun knives like early 20th C (performance) knives in terms of form and function, rather than militia period (fighting) knives?

WSL was a person that received the knives from YM, and also someone who tested and reformed what he learned to a large extent. Why would you rate the words of one such person over another? Both would be presenting an impression of what YM told or showed them. The fact that there are conflicting accounts between these students is damning in itself. 

Of course maybe I just haven't been told the ultimate and convincing truth you are alluding to. Without some meat it is nothing more than the usual whispers though. What use is a knife form that is so secret nobody understands it, does it properly, or even passes it on. Without extreme luck, success is a numbers game at the end of the day.


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## guy b. (Oct 4, 2015)

Is this the form?


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## wckf92 (Oct 4, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Is this the form?



WOW...Who's form is that??? What lineage???


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## geezer (Oct 4, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Why are the wing chun knives like early 20th C (performance) knives in terms of form and function, rather than militia period (fighting) knives?



Logically, the smaller BCD knives (in our lineage that would be medium width blade "stabber/slashers" that can be concealed in a boot or sleeve) would be more practical in peacetime than the much longer thrusting swords of the uprisings of the mid 19th Century. Times change, weapons change.

Mid-19th C. Hudiedao:
https://chinesemartialstudies.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hudiedao-63cm-14mm-dragonphoenix.jpg

Smaller, 20th C. Bart Cham Dao as favored in my lineage:
http://cdn3.volusion.com/ckv9e.ymqc3/v/vspfiles/photos/Z-BJD-EWC-LT-S11-440C-LG-B-4.jpg?1428481788





guy b. said:


> What use is a knife form that is so secret nobody understands it, does it properly, or even passes it on.


_That _is a very good question.


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## geezer (Oct 4, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> WOW...Who's form is that??? What lineage???



Good lord. You could practice that dance for 10 years and all those lame applications, and a real fighter with knives, a solid staff, bat, or machete would have your head. Literally. That's the problem with secret BCD practice. 

I believe the limited movements I was taught are potentially more functional, but not if trained strictly as "forms". Then they are just as useless and ceremonial. Sometimes I get so fed up with this silliness I just want to swing a bat or shoot a shotgun. At appropriate targets of course.

It's October. _Pumpkins_ are in season!


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## wckf92 (Oct 4, 2015)

geezer said:


> Good lord. You could practice that dance for 10 years and all those lame applications, and a real fighter with knives, a solid staff, bat, or machete would have your head. Literally. That's the problem with secret BCD practice.
> 
> I believe the limited movements I was taught are potentially more functional, but not if trained strictly as "forms". Then they are just as useless and ceremonial. Sometimes I get so fed up with this silliness I just want to swing a bat or shoot a shotgun. At appropriate targets of course.
> 
> It's October. _Pumpkins_ are in season!



Awww screw it Geezer...shoot a shotgun at the bat which is swinging to hit the pumpkin!!!   This IS America after all! hahahahahahahahaha


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## LFJ (Oct 5, 2015)

guy b. said:


> As far as I understand it, YM did not know or did not properly explain why the 8. There is a lot of speculation but I have not heard a fully convincing answer.



Simply, because there are 8 sections to the form, depending on how you group the actions.

Not at all an uncommon way to name weapon forms in TCMA; number of postures, number of sections, number of the main action, number of categories of actions, number of total actions (as in 6.5 pole)...

This works with WSL's knife form, because it was designed with logic and symmetry, the markings of a good form. Someone not so well-versed in form creation won't be able to design such a well-structured form. It is obvious when people make up their own forms without this background. Their forms lack symmetry and logic. Then they are left with a number in the name of their forms that they no longer know the meaning of, and they are either secretive about it or come up with strange explanations for it that only kind of make sense.


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## guy b. (Oct 5, 2015)

geezer said:


> Logically, the smaller BCD knives (in our lineage that would be medium width blade "stabber/slashers" that can be concealed in a boot or sleeve) would be more practical in peacetime than the much longer thrusting swords of the uprisings of the mid 19th Century. Times change, weapons change.
> 
> Mid-19th C. Hudiedao:
> https://chinesemartialstudies.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hudiedao-63cm-14mm-dragonphoenix.jpg
> ...



I agree. But since times and weapons change, what does this tell you about the time the bjd form was (most likely) created? And who might have created it?


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## guy b. (Oct 5, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Simply, because there are 8 sections to the form, depending on how you group the actions.
> 
> Not at all an uncommon way to name weapon forms in TCMA; number of postures, number of sections, number of the main action, number of categories of actions, number of total actions (as in 6.5 pole)...
> 
> This works with WSL's knife form, because it was designed with logic and symmetry, the markings of a good form. Someone not so well-versed in form creation won't be able to design such a well-structured form. It is obvious when people make up their own forms without this background. Their forms lack symmetry and logic. Then they are left with a number in the name of their forms that they no longer know the meaning of, and they are either secretive about it or come up with strange explanations for it that only kind of make sense.



I have seen the form with more than 8 sections

I agree that the WSL form(s) are good examples when you compare with all of the bjd forms in existence.


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## geezer (Oct 5, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I have seen the form with more than 8 sections
> 
> I agree that the WSL form(s) are good examples when you compare with all of the bjd forms in existence.



Considering how secretive people are about these forms... how would you (or anybody else) know about "all the bjd forms in existence"? Not youtube, I hope?

Now about your comment in post #32.... Hmmm. Interesting point, except I bet that short BCD have also been around for quite a while ...at least since Leung Jan's time. But you are absolutely right that we really don't know how old the current versions of the BCD form is. You know, the older I get, the skeptically-er I get too.


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