# How do you rate Black Belts?



## JTKenpo (Mar 17, 2008)

Many posts revolve around time in grade or years of study, but what about skill level?  When you walk in a room of Black Belts or just martial artist for that matter, how do you measure up?  The question I pose is this what do you think makes a Black Belt?  No times in grade or combo #482, but skill level.  Anyone can learn a new technique but how many of us truely understand what we are doing and why?


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## fnorfurfoot (Mar 17, 2008)

This is a difficult question to answer only because each system has their own requirements for promotion to black belt.  Some schools require a minimum number of techniques, others a minimum number of training hours/years, and still others only care if you can fight.  I have seen a large number of black belts who are fast and fluid but have no knowledge of the curriculum for their particular system.

I personally look at a combination of material and their ability to perform on the fly.  But I also look at earning a black belt as a beginning.  That student has passed his "basics", now it's time to learn the good stuff.  

I've always looked at the ranks like schooling.  The lower ranks are similar to grade school, they teach you the basics you will need to continue further in your education.  Brown belt would be somewhere around high school and black belt means that you just graduated and can now function reasonably well on your own.  But you don't know everything.  Then you move on further with associate degrees, bachelor's degrees, and doctorates.  That is how I look at 2nd, 3rd, 4th degrees and so on.  Their basics should be crisp and they are now ready to truly understand the hows and whys.

Hopefully, I that makes sense to you.  I'm not the best at expressing what I am thinking.


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## JTKenpo (Mar 17, 2008)

That is very similar to my way of thinking.  When I graduate a Black Belt I tell them they have now learned how to learn.  The basics should be unquestionable.  Now it is time to move on to more advanced understanding of Kata and technique.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 18, 2008)

I have my own personal requirements for myself in addition to what my teachers require. I have chosen more of a scholar role in my training because my back and neck injuries have limited the amount of contact I can safely absorb. Therefore I won't let just anyone demo on me or work with me physically. All of my own students possess the control to temper the amount of destructive force they use while still changing body structure.

What impresses me is when people can move with focus and own their space, while still maintaining VISIBLE control of potentially damaging movements, and then can explain the hows and whys of what they're doing.

I've visited lots of schools and seen lots of examples. I belong to five different MA organizations. In each of them there are examples of what I'm talking about, and there are people on the completely opposite end of the spectrum who just plain suck.

Trying to quantify yourself to others is ludicrous without first defining what it is you want to compare and what standard you will apply for comparison. By my own personal requirements, I'm better than a lot, worse than some, and inferior to few. And then there are cases wherein that scale gets flipped around all to heck.  So since our own personal journey is our own personal growth and improvement, I choose to focus on that growth, and forget the comparisons. What matters to me is I seem to attract a student body who place value in what I'm teaching - I don't have a commercial school and I don't advertise, but my school is growing. I have the compliments of my teachers who have stated I'm a very good student, and that's more than enough for me. Where I am in relation to everyone else, I don't care. There will always be people better and worse.


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## Jdokan (Mar 18, 2008)

when they're picking up the tab they're awesome.....10's across the board....geefaw, geefaw....


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## JTKenpo (Mar 18, 2008)

Niiiiiice


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## DArnold (Mar 18, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> Many posts revolve around time in grade or years of study, but what about skill level? When you walk in a room of Black Belts or just martial artist for that matter, how do you measure up? The question I pose is this what do you think makes a Black Belt? No times in grade or combo #482, but skill level. Anyone can learn a new technique but how many of us truely understand what we are doing and why?


 
Simple...

Knowledge


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## terryl965 (Mar 18, 2008)

DArnold said:


> Simple...
> 
> Knowledge


 
I agree Knowledge is the best way.


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## Doc (Mar 18, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> Many posts revolve around time in grade or years of study, but what about skill level?  When you walk in a room of Black Belts or just martial artist for that matter, how do you measure up?  The question I pose is this what do you think makes a Black Belt?  No times in grade or combo #482, but skill level.  Anyone can learn a new technique but how many of us truely understand what we are doing and why?



Few.


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## Doc (Mar 18, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> I have my own personal requirements for myself in addition to what my teachers require. I have chosen more of a scholar role in my training because my back and neck injuries have limited the amount of contact I can safely absorb. Therefore I won't let just anyone demo on me or work with me physically. All of my own students possess the control to temper the amount of destructive force they use while still changing body structure.
> 
> What impresses me is when people can move with focus and own their space, while still maintaining VISIBLE control of potentially damaging movements, and then can explain the hows and whys of what they're doing.
> 
> ...


You suck, or so I heard.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 18, 2008)

I know that this comes from a totally different field but I think that this little anecdote encompasses all that any of us need to know about rank.

During a break in training one day I had gone to 'redress' as my hakama had gotten itself in something of a gaffufle.  Whilst tucked behind a doorway, out of sight, I overheard a couple of sensei from other schools talking to my sensei about ... me :O!  I'd not long gotten my shodan and I couldn't help but evesdrop on the nice things they were saying about my iai.

What did my sensei say?  "Yes, he's progressed well but there's a long way to go yet.".

I don't want to go so far as to imply that a Black Belt means nothing, just that, as we've discussed here before, what it really signifies is that you haven't given up and have a chance to actually learn something significantly well.

So, attempting to judge criteria for BlackBelts is something of an excercise in plaiting fog - it's a shifting, intangible thing that refuses to be pinned down.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 18, 2008)

Doc said:


> You suck, or so I heard.


 Funny...I did mean my position in the SL4 camp was indeed at that end of the spectrum. But I'm working on progressing to the better end.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 18, 2008)

Doc said:


> You suck, or so I heard.


And waitasec...since when do you base your opinions on what you "heard"...especially when you've instructed my movement .


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## Doc (Mar 18, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> And waitasec...since when do you base your opinions on what you "heard"...especially when you've instructed my movement .



Oh wait¡ You were talking about martial arts. I thought you said, "martial farts." - Nevermind¡


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## marlon (Mar 18, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> Many posts revolve around time in grade or years of study, but what about skill level? When you walk in a room of Black Belts or just martial artist for that matter, how do you measure up? The question I pose is this what do you think makes a Black Belt? No times in grade or combo #482, but skill level. Anyone can learn a new technique but how many of us truely understand what we are doing and why?


 

just for fun and not to be antagoinistic, i will ask:  What are you doing and why?


Respectfully,
Marlon


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 18, 2008)

LOL! I haven't quite mastered the execution of the gastrointestinal PMD techniques. Isn't that a "hidden" technique anywho?


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## JTKenpo (Mar 19, 2008)

marlon said:


> just for fun and not to be antagoinistic, i will ask: What are you doing and why?
> 
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Hi Marlon, 
Two stage answer.  In my own school we have a set curriculum that needs to be learned and performed well, but the question wasn't really about curriculum.  It was more about when you hear someone say he/she is a Black Belt what comes to mind.  For me, I want to see crisp technique and a general understanding of kata, and hopefully good body mechanics.  

JT


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## curious1 (Mar 20, 2008)

White to Black, degrees or not, the very second you believe you got it down. Stop and humble your self. Learning is limitless.

  Representing a Black Belt should not be all about knowing how many techniques you have and how well you perform them, it also states what kind of person you are and how well you carry yourself. Through my years I have met so many so called Black Belts that are great fighters, great technicians, great forms men strong and in perfect condition. But when that person starts to disrespect other people because they feel they may be inferior to them, I have little respect for you as a Black Belt. Forgive me if I sound a little harsh.
  I have always believed a Black Belt to be an Honorable and respected title and to tarnish that by letting greed and vanity control how you act towards others is a shame.

  To all that pursue higher knowledge I commend you. 
  To all that received higher knowledge without stepping on others I cherish you, your respect for the art keeps the worthiness of what a Black Belt really is.


  7 down 8 up.


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## JTKenpo (Mar 20, 2008)

Very nicely put curious1.  I remember being at a tournament in the not so recent past and seeing a local highly decorated black belt and looking forward to meeting the gentlemen.  I had reviewed some of his material he had on video and was impressed.  When I approached him he was walking out the door of the school with someone, got outside lit up a cigarette (in front of all the kids) and started trash talking about the competitors.  I turned around decided that I didn't need to know him and let him live in his own world.


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## kailat (Mar 20, 2008)

To pose a more secure answer to this question, one must adhere to exactly what it is, he / she is training in the martial arts for.  Once you reach a status such as the rank of shodan!  You have to aquire a knowledge or a degree of knowledge that your basic skill level should be beyond that of any beginner.  Or even that of when you began.  To understand a set curriculum is often times not always reason enough to be or be awarded a black belt.   In many instances a curriculum is not much more than a set or series of guidelines.  Does that curriculum make you a better fighter overall?  Can you defend yourself if ever put intoa  situation?  MY QUESTION is where is that individual gonna go after he / she gets their black belt?  continue training?  take a break?  set back and begin teaching?  take a back seat and expect to relax?   At the stage of black belt your journey has only begun.  Your now a "TRUE BEGINNER"!!  You should understand the essence of combat.  You should understand the strength and endurance and mental beating it takes to work hard to get somewhere.  It should of been a long, hard road to make it to your black belt.  Anymore in some circumstances earning a black belt is a matter of funding!  you pay you earn it.  Time and Grade is a thing of the past!!  You work hard you should get ranked! 

As it is percieved many should look at once they reach shodan level, where do they take it and their training from there...

Thats just my opinion... as I walk into a school and I see black belt my first impression of thier technique and skill level is or should be on point.. It should be visual that their technique be sharp, precise, crisp and no flaws of break in timing, fluidity, and a complete dose of reality as well as they should be confident in every movement.

 When faced in a situation or attempt to be harmed they should be confident of defense.  NO HOLDS BARRED!!


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## MJS (Mar 20, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> Many posts revolve around time in grade or years of study, but what about skill level? When you walk in a room of Black Belts or just martial artist for that matter, how do you measure up? The question I pose is this what do you think makes a Black Belt? No times in grade or combo #482, but skill level. Anyone can learn a new technique but how many of us truely understand what we are doing and why?


 
Skill and understanding of the material is what matters most to me.  Someone can have 1 stripe or 50 on their belt, I could care less.  What matters to me is: a) do they understand the material, b) can they make it work, c) can they teach it.  The belt doesnt matter IMO, because I'm sure we've all seen some crappy people out there, who're wearing a high rank, and look like garbage.

My teachers make sure that I understand and can apply the material.  Honestly, I have never been a rank chaser, and I would hate to think that I'd get a promotion if I really didn't deserve it.  

This is why I think that once you reach Black Belt, its not so much about learning new things, but instead, constantly making what you already know better.  On a related note...I was taking a lesson last night with one of my Arnis teachers.  The subject of material and rank came up, and I asked if there was more material after black.  I asked this because I just tested for my Arnis black in Jan.  He said aside from a few more forms, no, there was no 'new' material per se, but instead, just refining the material that I already knew.  The same can be said about BJJ.  A blue belt in BJJ pretty much knows the same things as a black belt, the difference being that the BB has a deeper understanding and working knowledge.

So..back to Kenpo...I feel the same way.  During my weekly private lesson with my Kenpo teacher, I've recently started going back over the techs and katas, making sure I'm doing them right, fine tuning things, etc.  You can know a thousand techniques, but if you can't make them work, what good are they? 

Mike


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## Doc (Mar 20, 2008)

MJS said:


> Skill and understanding of the material is what matters most to me.  Someone can have 1 stripe or 50 on their belt, I could care less.  What matters to me is: a) do they understand the material, b) can they make it work, c) can they teach it.  The belt doesnt matter IMO, because I'm sure we've all seen some crappy people out there, who're wearing a high rank, and look like garbage.


And one of the reasons why we wear no stripes. There is no confusion. You are either impressed with the man, or not. The belt and all its markings are put into proper perspective. If the man truly makes the belt, it shouldn't matter that its plain.


> ... its not so much about learning new things, but instead, constantly making what you already know better.  ... there was no 'new' material per se, but instead, just refining the material that I already knew.
> 
> ... I've recently started going back over the techs and katas, making sure I'm doing them right, fine tuning things, etc.  You can know a thousand techniques, but if you can't make them work, what good are they?



Amen Brudda, spread the gospel.   (as the Old Man would say)


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## Carol (Mar 20, 2008)

Doc said:


> And one of the reasons why we wear no stripes. There is no confusion. You are either impressed with the man, or not. The belt and all its markings are put into proper perspective. If the man truly makes the belt, it shouldn't matter that its plain.



Black by popular demand?


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## Doc (Mar 20, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Black by popular demand?



Yes, and the belt too!


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2008)

MJS said:


> Skill and understanding of the material is what
> 
> This is why I think that once you reach Black Belt, its not so much about learning new things, but instead, constantly making what you already know better. On a related note...I was taking a lesson last night with one of my Arnis teachers. The subject of material and rank came up, and I asked if there was more material after black. I asked this because I just tested for my Arnis black in Jan. He said aside from a few more forms, no, there was no 'new' material per se, but instead, just refining the material that I already knew. The same can be said about BJJ. A blue belt in BJJ pretty much knows the same things as a black belt, the difference being that the BB has a deeper understanding and working knowledge.
> 
> Mike


 
Personally, i like to remind the people i teach...and myself often that the best thing about kempo is not testing, not new material, not a black belt, but that you can get better and better with what you learned the first day of class as long as you are willing to work at getting better and place that above anything else in the class.  I love what you said above, and i submit that it is not just for black belts...although they are the ones more likely to forget it.  My teacher Shihan Ingargiola makes it mandatory at black belt to do indepth analysis of the beginner material (white to orange), at 2nd degree in depth study of the intermediate level marterial( purple to green stripe) and at 3rd study the advanced stuff from green to brown...some of my best learning and teaching has come from understanding demonastrating "advanced" "hidden" "secrets" from the white belt requirements!  this is part of why i love martial arts and why i credit my students for any current and futur rank i may achieve, if it were not for them at black i had enough material for a,life time of study and improvement.  The new stuff is great and fun but without teaching i do not know if i would have bothered to get the new stuff let alone rank.  But the new stuff is fun to learn has helped me improve and well...i am beginning to ramble, apologies

respectfully,
Marlon


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## KempoKop (Mar 22, 2008)

I am NOT a black belt. I was in the martial arts about 20 years ago and just recently got back into it. I went to several schools and watched students some of whom were "Black Belts". 

For me and every persons opinion is different but I know what a "Black Belt" is not in my eyes.  I think some schools tend to "hand out" belts. I came from a school that was pretty much a belt a year on average in progression.  

That means that you had about a years worth of study in those techniques in that belt and were responsible for those techniques as you progressed.  

I've seen black belts who may know techniques and they may have knowledge of their art. But I've also seen poor balace and poor application of techniques.

I understand that Dojo's have rent to pay but if in my mind even with all the knowledge those individuals who lack balance, correct application, or poor form they should be held to say a brown till they demonstrate a high level of proficiency and skill.  Nothing bothers me more then to see a 10 year old kid with a black belt. 

Just one guys opinion.


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