# Vehicles as weapons



## PhotonGuy (Aug 18, 2017)

Vehicles seem to be a current trend as the weapon of choice for mass killers. There has just been a terror attack in Barcelona where a van plowed into a crowd, killing a bunch of people. These vehicle ramming attacks seem to be occurring mostly in Europe although there was recently such an attack in the USA in Virginia. So the best thing I can think of to do is to simply be alert. These vehicle ramming attacks happen in cities or urban areas where there's lots of people so if you're in such an area be extra careful about keeping a lookout for a vehicle that might plow into people. Make sure you have enough room to dodge to the side in case a vehicle comes plowing in your direction and if possible try to run inside any nearby building.


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## drop bear (Aug 18, 2017)

I have been nailed by a car before. I got on to the bonnet and  did a break fall. apart from some gravel rash I was ok.


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## dunc (Aug 18, 2017)

Yup I think rolling and break falls are probably the key martial arts skills that may help in that situation


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## Danny T (Aug 18, 2017)

As in any self defense/personal protection situation...awareness is key. All situations are self defense/personal protection situations. Awareness is always key.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I have been nailed by a car before. I got on to the bonnet and  did a break fall. apart from some gravel rash I was ok.


I thought of that with the Virginia attack, but the attacks in Spain were using vans. Fewer options with those. In a crowd, it'd be damnably difficult to get out of the way.


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## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2017)

When a vehicles comes at you at speed as these do and pins you against abuilding, as these do then you are either dead or have life changing injuries. The drivers are specifically attacking people in places where they cannot move away and cannot 'judo roll'. These are cold blooded murderers, they know exactly how to cause the maximum amount of damage. They chose crowed streets and bridges, awareness is unlikely to help you, in fact probably the best thing you can do is hope it misses you. sorry but that's a professional opinion from a Met. officer friend of mine. There's no warning signs and no where to go because that's how they plan it. It's not random attacks.


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## geezer (Aug 18, 2017)

Like guns, vehicles can also kill when used carelessly by reckless, drunken, or merely distracted drivers. I live in a state where any adult except a felon can carry a knife or a gun either openly of concealed with no permit  ...and everybody drives to get anywhere.

Friends of mine from other places have asked me if our loose gun laws make me uneasy. My reply is that I'm too busy avoiding being_ hit_ by some idiot texting and driving to worry about guns!


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## geezer (Aug 18, 2017)

After all, 911 was an example of using transportation vehicles as weapons.


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## jobo (Aug 18, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Vehicles seem to be a current trend as the weapon of choice for mass killers. There has just been a terror attack in Barcelona where a van plowed into a crowd, killing a bunch of people. These vehicle ramming attacks seem to be occurring mostly in Europe although there was recently such an attack in the USA in Virginia. So the best thing I can think of to do is to simply be alert. These vehicle ramming attacks happen in cities or urban areas where there's lots of people so if you're in such an area be extra careful about keeping a lookout for a vehicle that might plow into people. Make sure you have enough room to dodge to the side in case a vehicle comes plowing in your direction and if possible try to run inside any nearby building.


if you are in a crowd, they are all trying to move away and nobody is going anywhere fast, added to that people are in family groups with children to worry about. I don't think there is any solution other than keep out of crowded tourist traps. I hate being in crowded places, so its no hardship to me to give them a swerve


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2017)

jobo said:


> if you are in a crowd, they are all trying to move away and nobody is going anywhere fast, added to that people are in family groups with children to worry about. I don't think there is any solution other than keep out of crowded tourist traps. I hate being in crowded places, so its no hardship to me to give them a swerve


Not always practical to avoid them, though. This weekend, for instance, there's a prediction of something more than 100,000 (maybe as many as 250,000) visitors to our immediate area, in preparation for the eclipse (we are within 30 miles of the path of totality). This area will be clogged in an unusual manner. If I go anywhere, there will be crowds.


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## jobo (Aug 18, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not always practical to avoid them, though. This weekend, for instance, there's a prediction of something more than 100,000 (maybe as many as 250,000) visitors to our immediate area, in preparation for the eclipse (we are within 30 miles of the path of totality). This area will be clogged in an unusual manner. If I go anywhere, there will be crowds.


at least youl see the car coming of its got its lights on

i live in a city of near five million people , i manage to avoid very crowded d areas


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## drop bear (Aug 18, 2017)

It is not that uncommon. I have a mate who has had two cars try to drive though his pub.


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## Brian King (Aug 18, 2017)

There are ways of moving thru a crowd even a panicked one but must be practiced and much more difficult if you are with your family.
Vehicle line of attack is straight, running away but staying in the line of attack is futile at best but it is instinctive to run straight ahead and with a crowd.
All that said, if it is a planned attack things will be grim. First, Today look where you go but look thru the eyes of someone wanting to do maximum damage. This will give you clues to add to your chances of survival.
Second, learn trauma care so that if you are a survivor you can assist others to survive.
Regards
Brian King


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2017)

Brian King said:


> Second, learn trauma care so that if you are a survivor you can assist others to survive.


This has been on my list for a long time. The Red Cross offers (or at least used to) training for emergency responders. Maybe it's time for me to look into that again.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 19, 2017)

geezer said:


> Like guns, vehicles can also kill when used carelessly by reckless, drunken, or merely distracted drivers. I live in a state where any adult except a felon can carry a knife or a gun either openly of concealed with no permit  ...and everybody drives to get anywhere.
> 
> Friends of mine from other places have asked me if our loose gun laws make me uneasy. My reply is that I'm too busy avoiding being_ hit_ by some idiot texting and driving to worry about guns!



I don't know where you're at but wherever it is you're probably much more likely to get shot if you go to Los Angeles, and LA has among the tightest gun laws.


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## drop bear (Aug 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This has been on my list for a long time. The Red Cross offers (or at least used to) training for emergency responders. Maybe it's time for me to look into that again.


CPR. And bung a t shirt over the bits squirting blood.


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## jobo (Aug 20, 2017)

Brian King said:


> There are ways of moving thru a crowd even a panicked one but must be practiced and much more difficult if you are with your family.
> Vehicle line of attack is straight, running away but staying in the line of attack is futile at best but it is instinctive to run straight ahead and with a crowd.
> All that said, if it is a planned attack things will be grim. First, Today look where you go but look thru the eyes of someone wanting to do maximum damage. This will give you clues to add to your chances of survival.
> Second, learn trauma care so that if you are a survivor you can assist others to survive.
> ...


the line of attacked isn't,straight, they can swerve from side to side to get the greatest concentration of people, is if every onw goes to the left to get out of the,way, they swerve to that side.

going in the opposite direction to the crowd seem a good idea, but that easier said than done if the people behind are pushing you


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2017)

jobo said:


> the line of attacked isn't,straight, they can swerve from side to side to get the greatest concentration of people, is if every onw goes to the left to get out of the,way, they swerve to that side.
> 
> going in the opposite direction to the crowd seem a good idea, but that easier said than done if the people behind are pushing you


If they are traveling at some speed, the line of attack can't swerve much and stay in control. I'd have to look at it more closely, but it probably acts like a straight line for the distance we'd react in, if they're at 30-40 MPH.


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## jobo (Aug 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If they are traveling at some speed, the line of attack can't swerve much and stay in control. I'd have to look at it more closely, but it probably acts like a straight line for the distance we'd react in, if they're at 30-40 MPH.


when they took out Westminster bridge they were swerving all over the road to get the most people they could, nor do they need to be going that fast to kill people, nor do they need to maintain control, but even so you can move around a considerable amount at that speed.
how,does swerving all over the road count as a straight line? It certainly isn't the shortest distance between two points, which is the defintion of a straight line


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2017)

jobo said:


> when they took out Westminster bridge they were swerving all over the road to get the most people they could, nor do they need to be going that fast to kill people, but even so you can move around a considerable amount at that speed.
> how,does swerving all over the road count as a straight line? It certainly isn't the shortest distance between two points, which is the defintion of a straight line


I said it "probably acts like a straight line for the distance we'd react in". I never said it was one. With some speed, the curve isn't going to be extreme. If they're going 15 MPH, the curve is probably material. At 40, it likely isn't. To see this, look at a curve you can reasonably take at 40 MPH. Now, look at the degree of "lateral" movement (from the target's position) over a reasonably short distance. It's not huge. It will make a difference, depending which direction they run to, but not a huge one. And at that speed, changing direction suddenly in a van isn't likely to be useful - more likely to lose control than to quickly change directions.

Again, that all presupposes a certain amount of speed. If they are going slower, swerving becomes more of a factor.


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## jobo (Aug 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I said it "probably acts like a straight line for the distance we'd react in". I never said it was one. With some speed, the curve isn't going to be extreme. If they're going 15 MPH, the curve is probably material. At 40, it likely isn't. To see this, look at a curve you can reasonably take at 40 MPH. Now, look at the degree of "lateral" movement (from the target's position) over a reasonably short distance. It's not huge. It will make a difference, depending which direction they run to, but not a huge one. And at that speed, changing direction suddenly in a van isn't likely to be useful - more likely to lose control than to quickly change directions.
> 
> Again, that all presupposes a certain amount of speed. If they are going slower, swerving becomes more of a factor.


but you've just invented an average speed of 40 mph to support an argument. Why do you think maintaining control matters, as long as the vehicle can keep moving, in the end the Westminster,attacker crashed in to a fence and couldn't dive it any more, by that time there were multiple fatalities

if he had crashed sooner there would have been fewer, but he didn't,


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you've just invented an average speed of 40 mph to support an argument. Why do you think maintaining control matters, as long as the vehicle can keep moving, in the end the Westminster,attacker crashed in to a fence and couldn't dive it any more, by that time there were multiple fatalities
> 
> if he had crashed sooner there would have been fewer, but he didn't,


I didn't invent that speed to support the argument. I used that speed (as the upper end of a range of 30-40 MPH) when I made my original statement.

As for keeping control, it matters for precisely the reason you state. If they swerve hard enough to tip the van, they don't achieve the purpose of swerving in the first place.


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## Steve (Aug 20, 2017)

If you see the car coming at you, you might be able to move out of the way.   But that's not how this goes down.   

 The decision is whether we are going to put Jersey barriers along every road now to prevent cars from leaving the road.


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## jobo (Aug 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I didn't invent that speed to support the argument. I used that speed (as the upper end of a range of 30-40 MPH) when I made my original statement.
> 
> As for keeping control, it matters for precisely the reason you state. If they swerve hard enough to tip the van, they don't achieve the purpose of swerving in the first place.


now you've invented a van,
there is no requirement on them to turn up a a vehicle and drive at a speed to fit your scenario. There is no reason they can't slow down, pick their target and then accelerate it again, or just run everyone over at 10 miles an hour


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2017)

jobo said:


> now you've invented a van,
> there is no requirement on them to turn up a a vehicle and drive at a speed to fit your scenario. There is no reason they can't slow down, pick their target and then accelerate it again, or just run everyone over at 10 miles an hour


Actually, a van is the most common vehicle used in recent attacks. Not invented.\

Agreed, it probably could go down at a lower speed if the crowd is dense enough - I haven't looked to see what estimated speeds were in the recent attacks. Again, I'm simply following up on my earlier post, in which I cited a higher speed than that. I made no statements that an attack would have to be 30-40 MPH; rather, I stated what would likely happen at that speed.


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## Martial D (Aug 20, 2017)

dunc said:


> Yup I think rolling and break falls are probably the key martial arts skills that may help in that situation


Agreed! Breakfalls are the most underrated set of all the possible skills you can learn in MA. Not just for fighting, for any situation in life where you find yourself saying 'oh crap' as the earth pummels towards you.

I am confident I would be dead today after a cliff climbing accident I had 20 or so years ago, where I was lucky and aware enough to be abe to 'sort of' roll out of a 15 foot fall. I was bumped, bruised, and my arm wasnt the same for a few weeks, but i lived.


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## drop bear (Aug 20, 2017)

Steve said:


> If you see the car coming at you, you might be able to move out of the way.   But that's not how this goes down.
> 
> The decision is whether we are going to put Jersey barriers along every road now to prevent cars from leaving the road.




You just make tank traps for parades and stuff. On wheels that sink down and lock.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 23, 2017)

So it sounds like the best way to avoid being hit by a vehicle that's being used as a weapon is to avoid being in areas where there's tight crowds and where there's no room to move and where vehicles can go. This weekend and on Monday I was in Tennessee to see the solar eclipse. Lots of people were there but we were in a big field where a vehicle wouldn't be likely to go and if a vehicle did go there, there would be plenty of room to move. The crowd was big but there was still lots of room to move. Tomorrow I am going to Manhattan, hopefully I won't be in a situation where I can get hit by an attacker using a vehicle to hit people.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So it sounds like the best way to avoid being hit by a vehicle that's being used as a weapon is to avoid being in areas where there's tight crowds and where there's no room to move and where vehicles can go. This weekend and on Monday I was in Tennessee to see the solar eclipse. Lots of people were there but we were in a big field where a vehicle wouldn't be likely to go and if a vehicle did go there, there would be plenty of room to move. The crowd was big but there was still lots of room to move. Tomorrow I am going to Manhattan, hopefully I won't be in a situation where I can get hit by an attacker using a vehicle to hit people.


It would be difficult to avoid being in such a situation in Manhattan, or most any city.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 3, 2017)

So I was thinking, a weapon of sufficient caliber fired into the engine block of a vehicle, would it stop it?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So I was thinking, a weapon of sufficient caliber fired into the engine block of a vehicle, would it stop it?


Sure, if it hits something important enough, while still having enough velocity to damage it sufficiently.

I'll note that technically the caliber isn't the telling point. It's the force it exerts when it hits, combined with the type of bullet. I'd think a LRN would have a tough time penetrating much, unless it's a massive bullet traveling pretty dangled fast. A FMJ has a better chance. A slow bullet probably has less chance of penetration than a slightly lighter one that is traveling much faster. Someone here will have thought that bit of physics through better than I, hopefully.


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## jobo (Oct 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Sure, if it hits something important enough, while still having enough velocity to damage it sufficiently.
> 
> I'll note that technically the caliber isn't the telling point. It's the force it exerts when it hits, combined with the type of bullet. I'd think a LRN would have a tough time penetrating much, unless it's a massive bullet traveling pretty dangled fast. A FMJ has a better chance. A slow bullet probably has less chance of penetration than a slightly lighter one that is traveling much faster. Someone here will have thought that bit of physics through better than I, hopefully.


less on the physic of ballistics' more on the physics of engines, its a case of how,soon you want it to stop, a hole in the radiator will stop it about ten minutes from now, a hole in the crank cases, which are ally will stop it about half an hour from now when it runs out of oil, a hole in the,cylinder block( IRON OR,ALLY) will make it run very rough, but won't stop it any time soon, though it will have problems getting up hills.

IF you can shoot the dissy cap off or with a diesel get the. Fuel pump , then its going to stop more of less straight away.

if you want to stop it,soonest, i would be more inclined to aim at the driver, that said there is probably some elephant gun that will smash it to bit with five or,six shots, its having one to hand that's the problems, your not going to do anything much with a pistol


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> less on the physic of ballistics' more on the physics of engines, its a case of how,soon you want it to stop, a hole in the radiator will stop it about ten minutes from now, a hole in the crank cases, which are ally will stop it about half an hour from now when it runs out of oil, a hole in the,cylinder block( IRON OR,ALLY) will make it run very rough, but won't stop it any time soon, though it will have problems getting up hills.
> 
> IF you can shoot the dissy cap off or with a diesel get the. Fuel pump , then its going to stop more of less straight away.
> 
> if you want to stop it,soonest, i would be more inclined to aim at the driver, that said there is probably some elephant gun that will smash it to bit with five or,six shots, its having one to hand that's the problems, your not going to do anything much with a pistol


Agreed. If shooting at the engine compartment, there are a few places where we might stop it faster. Hit something electrical and kill the circuit might work. With some of the aluminum engine blocks, a .50 cal rifle might be able to punch in and shear off a rod or just deform a cylinder enough to bring things to a clanking halt immediately. Something hitting the fuel line would work in a few seconds. All of that requires a blind shot through the hood or sides of the car, and would be less effective than shooting the driver through the windshield.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> less on the physic of ballistics' more on the physics of engines, its a case of how,soon you want it to stop, a hole in the radiator will stop it about ten minutes from now, a hole in the crank cases, which are ally will stop it about half an hour from now when it runs out of oil, a hole in the,cylinder block( IRON OR,ALLY) will make it run very rough, but won't stop it any time soon, though it will have problems getting up hills.
> 
> IF you can shoot the dissy cap off or with a diesel get the. Fuel pump , then its going to stop more of less straight away.
> 
> if you want to stop it,soonest, i would be more inclined to aim at the driver, that said there is probably some elephant gun that will smash it to bit with five or,six shots, its having one to hand that's the problems, your not going to do anything much with a pistol



As they say if it is not on youtube it didn't happen.


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2017)

Contrary to what some media are reporting the incident in London yesterday outside the Natural History Museum was a road traffic accident. A private hire car driver lost control and crashed. *It is not a terrorist incident*. The driver has been arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving and I imagine is somewhat shocked at the response his crash caused.


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