# External Hand Tranining



## Yoshiyahu

Does your School or Kwoon teach Iron Fingers and Iron palm Techniques with your Wing Chun? My Sihing says this is the Traditional teaching of WC many people now forsake. In one Bruce Lee's Books on fighting method he shows thrusting fingers in gravel as conditioning tool he too practice. I was woundering whats your viewpoints on hand and arm toughing and conditioning?

_Do you punch Wall Bags filled with Beans,Sand,Gravel or steel shots?_












_Do you drop down force on Striking Bags filled with Beans,Sand,Gravel or steel shots?_












_Do you thrust your hands and fingers into Buckets of Beans Sand,Rice,Beans, Steel Shots?_












*Another Wing Chun School I ran across on net had Pictures of this very thing down below the pics are self explantory I think*

*Bucket of Sand and Iron Palm Bags*​











*Wall Bag and Wooden Man*​


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## Xue Sheng

Not wing chun but Sanda hits trees and I believe Hung Ga does as well. Xingyi in some cases hits a wooden pole and does I believe Bagua

But one must be careful when training this way and I do not recommend doing it without a teacher.


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## geezer

Yoshiyahu said:


> Does your School or Kwoon teach Iron Fingers and Iron palm Techniques with your Wing Chun? My Sihing says this is the Traditional teaching of WC many people now forsake...
> 
> _Do you punch Wall Bags filled with Beans,Sand,Gravel or steel shots?_
> 
> _Do you drop down force on Striking Bags filled with Beans,Sand,Gravel or steel shots?_
> 
> _Do you thrust your hands and fingers into Buckets of Beans Sand,Rice,Beans, Steel Shots?_


 
My _first_ Wing Chun instructor taught us several methods of external conditioning. 

We did Saam sing drills in which we paired up and hit our bridge arms against those of our partner, we did wall bag training for our punches and kicks and we did a form of "iron palm" training involving dropping our hands in various downward strikes onto bags on stands, much like those shown in the pictures. This was accompanied by relaxation and breathing exercises and the use of Dit Dat Jow to reduce bruising.

At the time I was not up to the level of practicing the dummy form so I cannot comment on how it was incorporated at that school.


I later trained with Leung Ting, who dismissed the saam-sing drills and "iron palm training" as unnecessary and not integral to Wing Tsun. In fact he believed they taught bad habits and distracted from more essential training. He advocated strengthening your hands and arms by simply practicing Wing Tsun techniques diligently, and by punching and kicking the three sectional wall bag.

The bags could be filled with rice. beans or sand, but never steel shot, and he felt that jow was fine, but not necessary if you trained regularly and progressed gradually in your training. The emphasis was on developing a relaxed, springy type of power and anything that over-emphisized "hardening" your body was to be avoided.

My current WT instructor and his organization are independent of GM Leung, but basically he follows this same approach. It is evident if you ever watch the best WT practioners do the dummy form: Powerful, but soft and _not_ noisy. The dummy body movement reveals the power, not the clacking of the wooden arms. Personally, I have a long journey ahead before I can exhibit such skill.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar

All we did at our school was knuckle toughening via fist push ups/hold ups and wall punching. I once talked to my instructor about Biu strikes and he said that there is no need to toughen them Bruce Lee style neither is it necesery to "cock" you middle finger back as BL that becouse the Biu Tze form trains your finger and muscles involved in the Biu strike in such a way that after years of practice it would be strong enough for throat armpit strikes without the fear of injury. Hes teacher was sopposed to be able to go threw a water melon with his fingers. 

My personal views on this are that any kind of Iron training could only help a martial artis if one has the time to practice it. I don't see any downsides. As for me personaly I don't realy feel the need to go train Iron fingers and then go on a killing spree or something  I'm not sure about BT being all you need to develop strong fingers but I can tell you that since I started BT my fingers have strengthend considerably. I know that when I first started I would probably break my fingers on a throat if I went for real! But slowly I'm starting to get confident in my finger straingth. And I never did any kind of finger toughening techniques as you mention.


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## dungeonworks

We have a wall bag and an Iron Palm bag.  I use the wall bag from time to time, but my hands are pretty tough as is from manual labor work and 14 years on the auto assembly line.  I still do some knuckle push ups too periodicaly, but nothing hardcore....I just don't see the need.  I've only fractured a hand bone once in the past in a fight and have busted a nose (or three) and made a few jaws desire soft foods with my hands as they are.  My line of work causes carpal tunnel (a right of passage on the auto assembly line! :uhyeah and arthritis is a birthright, so it is just not a viable or beneficial practice for me aside maintainance.  I guess those in proffessional or non-laborous lines of work could benefit though.


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## Yoshiyahu

Do you think there is a benefit to the traditional Hardening of hands and arms...Also my Sihing practices the dummy two ways. Soft with redirection working around the dummy. An also with uprooting power.



geezer said:


> My _first_ Wing Chun instructor taught us several methods of external conditioning.
> 
> We did Saam sing drills in which we paired up and hit our bridge arms against those of our partner, we did wall bag training for our punches and kicks and we did a form of "iron palm" training involving dropping our hands in various downward strikes onto bags on stands, much like those shown in the pictures. This was accompanied by relaxation and breathing exercises and the use of Dit Dat Jow to reduce bruising.
> 
> At the time I was not up to the level of practicing the dummy form so I cannot comment on how it was incorporated at that school.
> 
> 
> I later trained with Leung Ting, who dismissed the saam-sing drills and "iron palm training" as unnecessary and not integral to Wing Tsun. In fact he believed they taught bad habits and distracted from more essential training. He advocated strengthening your hands and arms by simply practicing Wing Tsun techniques diligently, and by punching and kicking the three sectional wall bag.
> 
> The bags could be filled with rice. beans or sand, but never steel shot, and he felt that jow was fine, but not necessary if you trained regularly and progressed gradually in your training. The emphasis was on developing a relaxed, springy type of power and anything that over-emphisized "hardening" your body was to be avoided.
> 
> My current WT instructor and his organization are independent of GM Leung, but basically he follows this same approach. It is evident if you ever watch the best WT practioners do the dummy form: Powerful, but soft and _not_ noisy. The dummy body movement reveals the power, not the clacking of the wooden arms. Personally, I have a long journey ahead before I can exhibit such skill.


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## Yoshiyahu

Oh for you I would suggest try thursting your fingers in a bucket of rice. Get the rice all on your hands. Squeeze it and then do it again for like ten times a day. Also get some of those chinese balls you twirl in your hand and do that periodically through out the day on both hands for like ten minuntes. An I advise doing some Chi kung and applying dit da jow to your hands before and after work as well as streching your hands...This may help a bit...




dungeonworks said:


> We have a wall bag and an Iron Palm bag. I use the wall bag from time to time, but my hands are pretty tough as is from manual labor work and 14 years on the auto assembly line. I still do some knuckle push ups too periodicaly, but nothing hardcore....I just don't see the need. I've only fractured a hand bone once in the past in a fight and have busted a nose (or three) and made a few jaws desire soft foods with my hands as they are. My line of work causes carpal tunnel (a right of passage on the auto assembly line! :uhyeah and arthritis is a birthright, so it is just not a viable or beneficial practice for me aside maintainance. I guess those in proffessional or non-laborous lines of work could benefit though.


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## Yoshiyahu

What would be the benefit of having iron fingers???


I mean why would it be benifical to have that sort of Kung at your disposal. My idea would be a classic what if sitituation. Such as this. What if you live in a state or your an age where it is illegal for you to carry a fire arm. Your life is endanger and you have a gun pointed at your head. Are someone is entering your home an you have to defend your family an you have no time to run to bed room grab the gun and put the bullets in an they have knife or gun. 




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1105521 said:
			
		

> All we did at our school was knuckle toughening via fist push ups/hold ups and wall punching. I once talked to my instructor about Biu strikes and he said that there is no need to toughen them Bruce Lee style neither is it necesery to "cock" you middle finger back as BL that becouse the Biu Tze form trains your finger and muscles involved in the Biu strike in such a way that after years of practice it would be strong enough for throat armpit strikes without the fear of injury. Hes teacher was sopposed to be able to go threw a water melon with his fingers.
> 
> My personal views on this are that any kind of Iron training could only help a martial artis if one has the time to practice it. I don't see any downsides. As for me personaly I don't realy feel the need to go train Iron fingers and then go on a killing spree or something  I'm not sure about BT being all you need to develop strong fingers but I can tell you that since I started BT my fingers have strengthend considerably. I know that when I first started I would probably break my fingers on a throat if I went for real! But slowly I'm starting to get confident in my finger straingth. And I never did any kind of finger toughening techniques as you mention.


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## profesormental

Greetings.

We train Iron Fist, Iron Palm, Iron Body and such.

I think Iron Fingers have to be trained with care, since several training methods might desensitize the fingers and can cause trauma to the finger joints. Also, for me, they have limited use compared to the time it takes to train them.

Grip strength is another thing which I do think has more importance and use. I would rather use the time of Iron Fingers to train grip strength.

Thus I stopped training it a while ago.

I agree that I won't be going in an Iron Finger Kung Fu slicing and dicing spree anytime soon! 

Biu Jee is more of an alignment mechanism for the arm, and can be used as a block, startle reflex induction tactic, neurological disruption tactic, PNF disruption tactic, etc.

I wouldn't use or train it to poke eyes out for practical and legal reasons.

Juan M. Mercado


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I wonder how this effects the Jing well points on the fingers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture_points


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## Eru IlÃºvatar

> What would be the benefit of having iron fingers???
> 
> 
> I mean why would it be benifical to have that sort of Kung at your disposal. My idea would be a classic what if sitituation. Such as this. What if you live in a state or your an age where it is illegal for you to carry a fire arm. Your life is endanger and you have a gun pointed at your head. Are someone is entering your home an you have to defend your family an you have no time to run to bed room grab the gun and put the bullets in an they have knife or gun.


 
Well I was talking that I personaly use little value on it as an attack becouse of moral beliefs mostly. If somebody is drunk and is picking a fight with me just to look cool infront of his girlfriend I would *realy *feel bad if I made him blind or worse... Sure if my or my famylies life is in danger then FXXX YXX I don't give a FXXX. Thats crossing the line. But just maiming people becouse they attack me/or I can... Plus I think what the Profesor is saying too is that Biu strikes to the eyes are not SO practicle as some people belive. You can do more deamege to yourself than your opponent! Think about it; if you miss and hit a forhead or something you can probably break your fingers. The eyes is only big for one-two fingers. Two get in others get broken  To eye strike if I would I would probably rather use the Biu strike from the begining of Chum Kiu that is vertical. It seems to fit better in the eye.

But I like the JKD/Paul Vunak(check the guy out! ) approach better! You just throv out the biu strike in a flinging kind of action. Very relaxed and it's more of a scratch then a push/strike kind of motion. But it is enough to stop the fight and is relatively humane as you only scrath the surface of the eye and you don't realy blind the guy.

But to answer your question: for the What If questions iron fingers are pretty useful. I would just rather use them on the throat. Or a ginger fist to the armpit sounds cool to!  Also as I have mentioned, as I was explained, the Biu can be developed to a pretty strong structure threw correct alignment and proper lingerment training in Biu Tze-like those right/left and up/down motions. So to paraphrase, as I was thought, there is no real need to go threw the whole Iron training thing. And as others have pointed out it is not neceserely an attacking tool. Also Biu strikes in the form, I feel, train you in another kind of explosive relaxed force that could be aplied to punches too!

P.S. I have just remembered... For those of you who want to blind people)) a thing to consider would also be the phoenix eye fist which is one of it's main uses. And also, look at the ginger fist for a good substitute for a Biu strike! It does what you can do with the Biu better mostly. Plus it's a stronger structure that doesn't need that much conditioning that you mention. The only down side I see right now when I write this is the shorter range than the Biu strike offers.


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## Yoshiyahu

*Outside of blinding or eye strikes. Building your fingers up to point where you can with stand striking the forehead with out jammed fingers. You strike below eye. The pressure points below the eye. The sides of neck. Also what about throat strikes and strikes to certain soft parts of the body.


*Jing-well* points represent the place where the qi "bubbles" up. These points are always the first points on the yang channels or last points on the yin channels and with exception of Kid-1 YongQuan all points are located on the tips of fingers and toes. The Nan Jing and Nei Jing described jing-well points as indicated for "fullness below the heart" (feeling of fullness in the epigastric or hypochondrium regions) and disorders of the zang organs (yang organs). 

*Jing-river* points are where the qi "flows" down the channel. Jing-river points are indicated for cough and dyspnoea, chills and fever, diseases manifesting as changes in voice, and for diseases of the sinews and bones. 




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1107766 said:
			
		

> Well I was talking that I personaly use little value on it as an attack becouse of moral beliefs mostly. If somebody is drunk and is picking a fight with me just to look cool infront of his girlfriend I would *realy *feel bad if I made him blind or worse... Sure if my or my famylies life is in danger then FXXX YXX I don't give a FXXX. Thats crossing the line. But just maiming people becouse they attack me/or I can... Plus I think what the Profesor is saying too is that Biu strikes to the eyes are not SO practicle as some people belive. You can do more deamege to yourself than your opponent! Think about it; if you miss and hit a forhead or something you can probably break your fingers. The eyes is only big for one-two fingers. Two get in others get broken  To eye strike if I would I would probably rather use the Biu strike from the begining of Chum Kiu that is vertical. It seems to fit better in the eye.
> 
> But I like the JKD/Paul Vunak(check the guy out! ) approach better! You just throv out the biu strike in a flinging kind of action. Very relaxed and it's more of a scratch then a push/strike kind of motion. But it is enough to stop the fight and is relatively humane as you only scrath the surface of the eye and you don't realy blind the guy.
> 
> But to answer your question: for the What If questions iron fingers are pretty useful. I would just rather use them on the throat. Or a ginger fist to the armpit sounds cool to!  Also as I have mentioned, as I was explained, the Biu can be developed to a pretty strong structure threw correct alignment and proper lingerment training in Biu Tze-like those right/left and up/down motions. So to paraphrase, as I was thought, there is no real need to go threw the whole Iron training thing. And as others have pointed out it is not neceserely an attacking tool. Also Biu strikes in the form, I feel, train you in another kind of explosive relaxed force that could be aplied to punches too!
> 
> P.S. I have just remembered... For those of you who want to blind people)) a thing to consider would also be the phoenix eye fist which is one of it's main uses. And also, look at the ginger fist for a good substitute for a Biu strike! It does what you can do with the Biu better mostly. Plus it's a stronger structure that doesn't need that much conditioning that you mention. The only down side I see right now when I write this is the shorter range than the Biu strike offers.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> *Jing-well* points represent the place where the qi "bubbles" up. These points are always the first points on the yang channels or last points on the yin channels and with exception of Kid-1 YongQuan all points are located on the tips of fingers and toes. The Nan Jing and Nei Jing described jing-well points as indicated for "fullness below the heart" (feeling of fullness in the epigastric or hypochondrium regions) and disorders of the zang organs (yang organs).
> 
> *Jing-river* points are where the qi "flows" down the channel. Jing-river points are indicated for cough and dyspnoea, chills and fever, diseases manifesting as changes in voice, and for diseases of the sinews and bones.


 I understand the Jing well points on the fingers. I am unsure what reaction conditioning the fingers would have on the Jing well points of the fingers.


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## Yoshiyahu

I have heard people say that it effects your eyes training iron fingers...The only way I can see it effects your eyes is that you is that you rub your eyes with out washing of the Dit Da Jow.





JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I understand the Jing well points on the fingers. I am unsure what reaction conditioning the fingers would have on the Jing well points of the fingers.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

The Qi at the well point is shallow but does connect with the other transporting-shu points. But I guess it is not as bad as say the He points.

In reflexology two toes are dedicated to the eyes and two to the ears.

http://www.comfortchannel.com/images/Reflexology_Chart_B.gif

Hand reflex showing the points for the eyes.

http://www.kymassagers.com/images/handreflexlology.jpg

Chinese reflexology depending on the school does have some different points because my teacher being an acupunturist gave me a copy of the points.


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## Yoshiyahu

So what would be some pro's to external hand training?




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> The Qi at the well point is shallow but does connect with the other transporting-shu points. But I guess it is not as bad as say the He points.
> 
> In reflexology two toes are dedicated to the eyes and two to the ears.
> 
> http://www.comfortchannel.com/images/Reflexology_Chart_B.gif
> 
> Hand reflex showing the points for the eyes.
> 
> http://www.kymassagers.com/images/handreflexlology.jpg
> 
> Chinese reflexology depending on the school does have some different points because my teacher being an acupunturist gave me a copy of the points.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> So what would be some pro's to external hand training?


 If done correctly I would think denser bones,increase circulation,stronger overall usuage of the hand.


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## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> So what would be some pro's to external hand training?



















Hand training is quite an outdated concept IMVHO.  Outside of heavy bag or wall bag that is.  heck, even stressing your hand with those grip strengthener's add density to your bones as will any resitance training.  Train enough and your hands adjust naturally, just look at any working carpenter or mason's hands.  

Makiwara, knuckle-ups on concrete, punching walls or trees or whatever is really stupid and no longer needed....not at the expense of crippling yourself.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar

Lol Dungeonworks  And I agree in the sense that I also don't rely see a need for any hardcore hand/fingers conditioning.


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## KamonGuy2

The classic phrase that my instructor uses - 'iron palm' is just a flashy name they made up to stop people calling it 'a slap'...

You can always toughen your hands up through various methods, but if you train hard whilst you are at your kwoon/dojo, then you shouldn't need it. I get my students working palms, elbows, punches on pads and people's chests to get used to the impact. Over time, I've built my hands up so they can hit without too much pain 

You have to be careful not to overdo it. Whilst the application of jit da jow to your hands is good, you have to remember your other joints (ie if I'm hitting a stool in iron palm training, the impact is going through my elbow joints and shoulder joints as well as my hands).

But try not to get suckered into the whole 'iron palm' mythos. It is just about conditioning your hands, that's all and it is not unique to wing chun


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## Yoshiyahu

The pictures you shown are from people who never done any martial arts training. Show me a Sifu or grand master who practiced iron fingers or hand techniques that said he has hand problems now due to his practice.

Also most people who have this sorta of illnesses is not from what they do with thier hands but the pork and swine that they eat. Pork is known to cause athrisit along with other degenrative diseases. In fact pigs or filled with bone and muslce problems and puss.




dungeonworks said:


> Hand training is quite an outdated concept IMVHO. Outside of heavy bag or wall bag that is. heck, even stressing your hand with those grip strengthener's add density to your bones as will any resitance training. Train enough and your hands adjust naturally, just look at any working carpenter or mason's hands.
> 
> Makiwara, knuckle-ups on concrete, punching walls or trees or whatever is really stupid and no longer needed....not at the expense of crippling yourself.


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## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> The pictures you shown are from people who never done any martial arts training. Show me a Sifu or grand master who practiced iron fingers or hand techniques that said he has hand problems now due to his practice.



How do you know for sure what caused this?  I have seen MANY of older karate teachers hands gnarled up from hand conditioning on Makiwara boards as well as knuckle push ups.  Also, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that repeated trauma to the hands or feet will cause calcification and arthritis as a result....and i don't care what movie seen this in or what "Grand Master" told you otherwise.  Ever see a carpenter's hands at the twilight of his career?  How about assembly line workers or any worker with repetitious fine motor movements.



Yoshiyahu said:


> Also most people who have this sorta of illnesses is not from what they do with thier hands but the pork and swine that they eat. Pork is known to cause athrisit along with other degenrative diseases. In fact pigs or filled with bone and muslce problems and puss.



Ummm.....okay, if you say so.  I know some religions ban pork altogether and try to create myths to keep the "flock" away from it, but that's another thread for another forum.


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## Yoshiyahu

This one guy who used to eat pork all his life...who Now doesn't because he has arthritis and diabetes always testifies that had it not been for pork it wouldn't have his issues. Also with in the African American community they possess the largest amount degenterative diseases they also are the largest consumer of porks in the world. 

As for grandmaster etc etc...I am aware of their are cons. But not everyone who practices these skills has them. For instance there are masters who specialize in iron palm or iron finger skill. There hands are not riddled with Arthritis. Also in addition to Dit Da Jow there are certain Chi Kung exercises you do to promote healing in your hands.

I cant speak for karate because I don't know any karate fighters presently. My Sifu's big brother practice karate and iron palm techniques. But he is fifty years an has not hand problems...but he is too young i suppose...i will let you know when he turns eighty....But now he doesn't practice karate...he has been practicing Wing Chun and other chinese martial arts for over 30 years. But his iron skills and phoenix fist is still pretty tough. I would not like to be on the receiving in. His student also has been practicing iron palm for like ten years...but he is only in his forties...so its too soon to tell. Let you know about him when he turns 100. 





dungeonworks said:


> How do you know for sure what caused this? I have seen MANY of older karate teachers hands gnarled up from hand conditioning on Makiwara boards as well as knuckle push ups. Also, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that repeated trauma to the hands or feet will cause calcification and arthritis as a result....and i don't care what movie seen this in or what "Grand Master" told you otherwise. Ever see a carpenter's hands at the twilight of his career? How about assembly line workers or any worker with repetitious fine motor movements.
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm.....okay, if you say so. I know some religions ban pork altogether and try to create myths to keep the "flock" away from it, but that's another thread for another forum.


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## Yoshiyahu

*If you take karate do you use the boards below. How does this benefit*









*Also if you practice palm strikes do you use this whats the benefit?*





*If you practice Bil Gee or Biu Tze whats the benefits of practicing these stiking basics below?*










Yoshiyahu said:


> Does your School or Kwoon teach Iron Fingers and Iron palm Techniques with your Wing Chun? My Sihing says this is the Traditional teaching of WC many people now forsake. In one Bruce Lee's Books on fighting method he shows thrusting fingers in gravel as conditioning tool he too practice. I was woundering whats your viewpoints on hand and arm toughing and conditioning?
> 
> _Do you punch Wall Bags filled with Beans,Sand,Gravel or steel shots?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Do you drop down force on Striking Bags filled with Beans,Sand,Gravel or steel shots?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Do you thrust your hands and fingers into Buckets of Beans Sand,Rice,Beans, Steel Shots?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Another Wing Chun School I ran across on net had Pictures of this very thing down below the pics are self explantory I think*
> 
> *Bucket of Sand and Iron Palm Bags*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Wall Bag and Wooden Man*​


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