# Whats with all the cat stances?



## Hotmetal (Mar 30, 2004)

Hey all,

I'm a brown belt in an offshoot of Universal Kempo which I'm told came from kajukembo.  Anyhow I have a question about kata.  This is the only martial art I've ever taken but my understanding is that kata are supposed to be a repository of a systems moves.  If thats the case why do almost all my kata have moves that are not part of our self defense sets and that we dont spar with?  Like cat stances, U punches, shooting star positions etc.  Its seems like they dont belong to Kempo, but to some kung fu style.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Mar 30, 2004)

Hotmetal said:
			
		

> My understanding is that kata are supposed to be a repository of a systems moves.  If thats the case, why do almost all my kata have moves that are not part of our self defense sets and that we dont spar with?  Like cat stances, U punches, shooting star positions etc.



Well, not knowing your specific "kata".... it would be hard to answer.  That question should be directed to your instructor.    In several different systems, often times the "forms" contain major ideas to the system movements.  In Kenpo , if it is within the realm of human movement, then it is a possible action that we may use.  

When sparring, techniques utilized are somewhat specific for "the game" rather than actual "street combat" for various reasons, so sometimes certain techniques are not utilized when sparring.  I assure you that this is NOT the case for all systems.

 :asian:


----------



## Shiatsu (Mar 31, 2004)

Which system are you from?  I have never heard of Universal kenpo being a off shoot of kajukembo.


----------



## KenpoTex (Mar 31, 2004)

Since I don't know what kata you are referring to, I can't really comment on that specifically but I have asked the same question.  Take the cat-stance, I once asked my instructor why it was in the forms since, up to the level I was at then, we didn't use the stance in a technique.  His answer was that although we may not isolate the stance it is there, take for example a front snap-kick.  as you shift your weight to the rear leg and draw the lead leg back for the kick, voila, cat-stance.  It usually happens so fast that you don't see it but it's there.  Including it in the form is just a way to "showcase" the particular basic.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Mar 31, 2004)

Cat stances are used, transitionally, in:

Step-throughs.
Delayed Sword.
Sword of Destruction.
Checking the Storm.
Scraping Hoof
Crashing Wings
Striking Serpent's head (extension)
Circling the Horizon....

and a lot of others, so I'm not sure I get why they would be useless...


----------



## Hotmetal (Mar 31, 2004)

My limited understanding is that in Hawaii, Kempo and Kenpo seperated and both changed a lot.  I imagine my kempo and your kenpo are quite different.  Is there an internet listing describing your named self defense techniques?  Ours are just numbered.  I'd be interested to see how many of our techniques are the same.


----------



## Blindside (Mar 31, 2004)

Shiatsu:

Universal Kempo is a kajukenbo offshoot through the Godin-Buell line.

Hotmetal:

I think you will find that few if any of the techniques between Universal Kempo or for that matter kajukenbo are going to be exactly the same as a Parker Kenpo version.  That said, there are certainly similarities, there are only so many entries and striking patterns that make practical sense, these are usually what you find duplicated.

Lamont


----------



## John Bishop (Mar 31, 2004)

"Universal Kempo" is the name of Martin Buell's system.  He was a black belt of Walter Godin, who was a black belt of Adriano Emperado.
I would think that the katas Prof. Buell teaches are identical, or very similar to Kajukenbo katas.  Kajukenbo katas are very differant then EPAK katas, and have a strong Okinawan flavor.  
Sometimes kata movements don't make sense at first glance, but I believe not all kata movements have to have a fighting application.  I think some movements are used to develop the body's muscles, like deep horse stances, and others may just contribute to the flow of the techniques.
As to kung fu type movements in your kata's, remember that the "bo" in Kajukenbo represents Chinese Boxing, specifically "Sil lum Pai kung fu". 
You may want to also want to try some of your questions at the Kajukenbo Cafe ( www.kajukenbocafe.com ).


----------



## Shiatsu (Mar 31, 2004)

Thanks for the information guys.  In "kajukembo"  we do the original forms and some other ones, that are almost identical to shotokan forms, with only very small variations.


----------



## roryneil (Apr 3, 2004)

I don't understand the confusion. Going back to your original question, Kenpo was originally called Karate/Kung-fu wasn't it, drawing from both? 
And on a side note, cat stances rock! OK, maybe it's not like going to a concert, but swinging wildly from a right bow to a left bow without a transitory cat is opening yourself wildly, and getting set into a cat allows you to use both hands and a foot with minimal opening. Maybe I don't understand the question.


----------



## Sapper6 (Apr 3, 2004)

cat stances are used mostly as a transition stance.  IE, moving from one stance to another, front leg snap kick, etc.  an example would be, attacker charges you from the front, you draw back into a right cat stance & execute a right snap kick to the groin.  cat stance=transitional stance


----------



## Han_Tsu_Ki (Apr 8, 2004)

When I was training in Shaolin Kenpo I once asked my instructor the same question and the reply was that forms(kata) are only principles and methods that teach contain vast amounts of knowledge when looked at closely. For example in one of our katas you have to do this somewhat difficult turn and jump on one foot (statue of the white crane if your wondering) and when I asked why we do this my instructor said 'If we can jump stand and move on one foot then, after practice, imagine what we could do on two'. Now I understand that one of the reasons for the kata to exist is to help further out understanding our balance. hope this helps!


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 8, 2004)

In some of the older kempo, karate, and kung-fu traditions, the cat stance is a viable and desirable combat stance, making three of the bodies limbs available within peripheral vision for responding to attacks. Some old EPAK breakaways still teach the "three shields" position: Defensive version of the 45-degree cat. 

Basic idea in response physiology; body parts in the same visual field as the attack they're responding to make better time in getting there.  3 shields/cat has a higher number of available body parts than a neutral bow or fighting horse.

Just a thought.

D.


----------



## SMP (Jul 12, 2004)

John Bishop brings up very good point. In addition I would add that you should discuss this question with your instructor.  He/She will hopefully be willing to help you understand. In my openion cat stances are very usefull by themselves as well as transitioning into a different stance.  The U punch is very powerful wether you believe in physics or chi energy. I was tought the star in our Pinion, Kata or form is teaching the mind to direct your body into attacking/defending multiple targets. Hope this helped


----------



## 8253 (Jul 12, 2004)

A cat stance is mainly a transitional stance.


----------



## OC Kid (Jul 12, 2004)

8253,
Thats what i was gonna say. We all use all of the stances whether we know it or not. most people when executing a front kick draw up into a cat during sparring. Maybe not the exact form or to the extreme of it but whether its a pull drag or a step through foot work , when using a front kick the weight should be shifted to the rear leg.

Power punches whether boxing, thai karate , kempo what ever will shift there weight to the fwd leg (fwd bow, zen kutsu ect) maybe not as deep or extended stance what ever but the weight is shifted forward..
 Sorry for rambling or babbling...


----------



## Kevin Walker (Jul 12, 2004)

Hotmetal said:
			
		

> Hey all,
> 
> I'm a brown belt in an offshoot of Universal Kempo which I'm told came from kajukembo. Anyhow I have a question about kata. This is the only martial art I've ever taken but my understanding is that kata are supposed to be a repository of a systems moves. If thats the case why do almost all my kata have moves that are not part of our self defense sets and that we dont spar with? Like cat stances, U punches, shooting star positions etc. Its seems like they dont belong to Kempo, but to some kung fu style.


Hi Guys,

First of all, I thought Kempo was kung fu as practiced by the Japanese?

Also, the 'Cat Stance' is heavily utilized by both Uechi-Ryu and Go-Ju Ryu karate, and as everybody here probably already knows, the purpose of the 'Cat Stance' is to adopt a universal ready position, and to be able to fire off a front kick instantaneously.

The 'Cat Stance' seems to have been absorbed by a lot of the Japanese approaches to empty handed 'kara-te' style of combat.


----------



## noble man (Jul 14, 2004)

What is your schools liniage?That may tell a lot of why there are a lot of cat stances in your kata.Who did your instrctor train under?I take Kajukembo,green belt 2nd degree.Lot of the same tecniqes in our kata,all have numbers except one.


----------



## Karazenpo (Jul 20, 2004)

Yes, cat stances are involved in transitional movements but there is a more relevant meaning to them. Okay, the bad guy takes a swing at you, you weren't ready to stop hit or even to block, so you shift your wait back to avoid the punch, hense, 'the cat stance'. I would say our ancesters took many of the stances that we end up in during real fights and they fine tuned them. In other words, it's natural to draw back like a 'cat' when attacked  but not so natural to possibly lash out with a strike or even block/strike simultaneously. So they took a natural reaction and made it better! Just my thoughts...........


----------

