# When do you pull your knife?



## brothershaw

This may have come up before but anway:
    Alot of people like to carry knives for protection and I see alot of people post about what knife they like to carry. 
Question what is the line for you to pull your knife out;assuming you are not protecting family.
Do you wait for a committed attack? Do you still pull it if the attacker or attackers  have no weapon ( and suppose you are a competent empty hand fighter).  I am not interested in the legal issues, just what is your personal line in the sand.  Its one thing if a person pulls a knife on you, but what if they dont but you have a knife? Are you afraid in a struggle they might find  yours and you should pull it first?
        Once again not interested in the legal aspects, just the question of you have a knife on you when does it come out of the sheath?


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## Gary Crawford

That's a real judgement issue that has no blanket answer.It just depends on the situation.I think when being threatened by more than one person it would be appropriate.One thing is for sure,if you are going to need it,don't wait until you are loosing.There is also the question of when you do pull the knife,do you display it or keep it concealed until the attack happens?I say only display it(and your willingness to use it) if you are sure you can deter the attack.If you think the attack is eminant,conceal it until you have to use it,no sense letting the attacker know they are in a knife fight until it's too late for them to pull their weapon(it might be a gun).


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## Rob Broad

I would pull my knife if the attacker had a weapon bared, if the odds were greatly against me such as being out numbered, or if it could instantly difuse the situation.


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## Cruentus

Posted this in FMA section...





> View you knife like a gun, but worse. It is like a gun because all the same criteria generally applies to the knife. It is worse because people view the blade as a thugs weapon of choice, and the blade leaves much more visually disturbing wounds then a gun, making the emotional outlook regarding you by a jury not favorable at all.
> 
> #1. lethal force has to be justified to pull a knife.
> 
> Definitions of such may vary, but a good rule of thumb is the Ability, Opportunity and Intent concept. You have to be able to prove that the attacker has the ability to kill or cause great bodily harm on you, the opportunity to do so, and that they have demonstrated intent to do so.
> 
> #2. After you pull the knife, even though lethal force is justified, your wounds have to demonstrate that your intent was self defense rather then offensive.
> 
> Definition of the law and application of the law are 2 different things. Even if you can legally justify lethal force, if you are on trial for murder, or attempted murder, your intent comes into question. If the wounds you create demonstrate offensive behavior rather then defensive behavior (trying to escape, get to safety, etc.) then your intent comes into question. If you use a blade that exceeds the legal limits, or that looks like a nasty fighting tool rather then a utility tool, then your intent comes into question. That question is, were you intending on killing or maiming anyone that gives you the excuse, or are you intent on simply defending yourself if needed? This question could make or break what a Jury has to say.
> 
> You say that your not interested in legal aspects, but I say that if your going to carry, then you'd better be, at least on a laymans level. A self defense that lands you in jail or murder or attempted murder is not good self defense in my opinion! So, I'd learn your state restrictions, and work within those limits. And, I would stick to the "ability, opportunity, intent" rule. And, I wouldn't do anything that would jeprodize the provability that you only intend to defend yourself, and not something else.



 :ultracool


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## Enson

personally i would pull it when i felt i needed it. i know that sounds a little dull but let me elaborate. i pull in the car when driving through a bad neighborhood. never know when someone will try to "car jack" you. i mostly don't carry it unless in a bad part of town though.


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## dearnis.com

As Paul stated above...when it is time for deadly force.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com

Hello Everyone,

Deploying a weapon, any weapon in a violent conflict immediately puts you in the Lethal Force mode. What I mean here is two fold:

1) The situation may not have required the use of a weapon and now you have just elevated the conflict to a life and death struggle. Now your opponent may draw a weapon, because his life is threatened. 

2) You have grounds to believe your life or that of a loved one is in grave bodily harm, which causes you to draw a weapon for your or loved ones protection.

Neither 1 nor 2, is a good place to be, at any time. SO keep your ego in check and awareness level up to avoid being in these situations.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## brothershaw

Part of the reason I asked is because I see alot of posts on this forum and others with people talking about knives, carrying knives, how to cut, what knife is the best for carrying etc. So while alot of people are carrying these knives for that just in case situation just what is thier threshold? Me personally the more I train ( and theoretically improve) the less interest I have in actually fighting anyone for any reason ( road rage aside,lol) I get enough bruises in class.


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## DeLamar.J

In the usa you will most likely get in trouble with your own government no matter what the situation is if you pull a knife. This is the only country someone can break in your house, try to rob you or possibly kill you, and then you will get in trouble alot of times. But the police can abuse you all day,and its caught on tape, and nothing happens to them, what a sick world. Say your being beat un justly by a police officer, in self defence you stab them, what happenns, you will go to prison. What if you attack a police officer unjustly, and he or she shoots you, they become a hero. Just dont add up to me.


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## Bammx2

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> In the usa you will most likely get in trouble with your own government no matter what the situation is if you pull a knife. This is the only country someone can break in your house, try to rob you or possibly kill you, and then you will get in trouble alot of times. But the police can abuse you all day,and its caught on tape, and nothing happens to them, what a sick world. Say your being beat un justly by a police officer, in self defence you stab them, what happenns, you will go to prison. What if you attack a police officer unjustly, and he or she shoots you, they become a hero. Just dont add up to me.


Try this one on for size.....
 I am an american that teaches in the UK. I have also been in possession of a knife since I was a child(country boy) and I was taught from day one how to RESPECT a knife and how to use it in all manners.
 The UK has the ONLY psychic police force on the planet! Over there...you get arrested for even HAVING a knife of any kind or anything THEY decide is a weapon....nothing can possibley be used in self-defense.
One man was arrested for being in possession of several knives in his car..they were kitchen knives....oh my God..he was a chef!
 You get arrested for what you MIGHT do.....they KNOW you are a criminal if you possess pepper spray and are going to attack people
 And if you get into a "defensive fight" as a martial artist.....you are done!
A shotokan instructor got attacked by a career criminal who had a knife and was NOT alone......the criminal was killed bare-handed and the instructor recieved many stitches and a time in the hospital. Not to mention the 15 years the judge gave when he found out he was a BB...judge: "you should have known better with your training"....get bent!
 Bottom line...they think you use whatever..to attack thier LEO's....thats it!
 I know this is a little off topic....but I just wanted to point out that no matter WHEN you decide to pull a knife,or anything else for that matter, you need to be aware of your surroundings and what the reprucussions could be.
Me?....I'll sit in prison contemplating what laws I broke rather then be buried in a cemetary because I obeyed those laws.


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## hardheadjarhead

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> In the usa you will most likely get in trouble with your own government no matter what the situation is if you pull a knife. This is the only country someone can break in your house, try to rob you or possibly kill you, and then you will get in trouble alot of times. But the police can abuse you all day,and its caught on tape, and nothing happens to them, what a sick world. Say your being beat un justly by a police officer, in self defence you stab them, what happenns, you will go to prison. What if you attack a police officer unjustly, and he or she shoots you, they become a hero. Just dont add up to me.




You're incorrect.  

In Indiana should an attacker break into or attack your home you have the right to employ deadly force in order to protect yourself.  You might be arrested subsequent to the act while an investigation determines the guy you offed wasn't--say--your wife's lover (and this wasn't a murder), but you're likely to be okay provided you didn't do anything stupid or crazy.  This standard is true for many states.

I suspect your post just insulted the law enforcement officers on this forum.  You've demonized all officers by writing the above, and this is neither fair nor accurate.

If an LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) is striking you, and he has reason to do so, should you pull a knife you've just escalated the situation to a deadly force scenario.  No law that I'm aware of allows you to "defend yourself" subsequent to an assault you've initiated.  If you start an altercation and then escalate it to lethal force, YOU are culpable.  You can not start a fight, start to lose that fight, and then bail yourself out by pulling a knife and later claiming self defense.  It doesn't work that way.

If he is unjustified in beating you and you pull the blade, your actions are still suspect.  A knife is an extremely deadly instrument and raises the stakes quite a bit.   Should you stab him in either case, you'd be lucky to go to prison in lieu of the morgue.

How many suspects were beaten to death from 1990-2000?  How many officers were knifed to death by suspects that same decade?  Check the DOJ stats on that and let us all know.  I have a hunch you'll find that cops have the higher body count.

The line "...if you attack an officer unjustly and he shoots you, they (sic) become a hero..." is so non-sensical as to barely merit an answer.  He'll likely be suspended until an investigation determines it was a justifiable shooting, which IT IS if you are wielding a knife and attacking him "unjustly".  Our society doesn't provide automatic mitigation for knife wielding assailants of police officers.  

To say otherwise follows the flawed reasoning of a middle school student rationalizing a playground fight. 


Regards,


Steve


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## Ceicei

Let's not allow this thread to become sidetracked by a discussion regarding behavior of LEOs.  Remember, only a *very small* percentage of whatever profession (and this includes martial artists) could be considered "bad apples".   

As HardHeadJarHead pointed out, each state in the USA have laws that vary when weapons, including knives, are involved in a situation.  Know your own state's laws (or if you are in a different country other than USA, your country's laws) what can and cannot be done with certain weapons in self defense.  The more you know about your own laws, the more you can be aware of to what extent you can protect yourself and your loved ones.

- Ceicei


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## Flatlander

My blade (if I've got one) comes out when I see one.  I don't think I require an equalizer if everyone's emptyhand.  Unless, however, we're talking about a situation where I've been beaten severely, and it looks like they probably want to seriously maim me, then, out she comes.  Otherwise, only if I see one.


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## GAB

Hello:

I use a knife (folding visible carry) all the time in the work I do, so I pull it all the time. I find it very handy in everyday activity, along with the other tools I carry on my belt to assist me in the work of "Handyman". 

If I had to pull the knife in a fight, it would be after I exhausted all other means of controlling the situation with my hands. If I could not and there was no way I was going to win the fight, I still would not pull it just to intimidate, I would tap out, if the person would not stop, I then felt personal fright towards life and limb, then and only then would I consider the knife.

Empty hands is the art most of the Kenpo/Kempo use, lately I have seen the introduction of the various other weapons that have been handed down.

I feel the inclusion of these weapons to any one under a Brown to be pretty risky to say the least. (maybe on an idividual bases under brown regarding ones character).

I have gone over to the FMA arts of Guro Dan Inosanto, he is very responsible in the teaching of blade weapons, and only after you learn the art of the stick and double stick.. 

Time in grade has a lot to do with it, I feel that it is very important in any MA, or program where you are teaching some one a trade or work ethic.

Regards, Gary


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## shaolinchi

I have been to a few different seminars on knife fighting through the art of AMOK!.  If anyone wants information on it, here's the site http://www.knifefighting.com   anyway, the only time I would consider pulling out my knife was if there was intent of taking my life, or a loved ones life.  Then I would pull it without any question


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## Silat Student

Personally I'll pull the minute someone comes after me with anything other than an empty hand. Or if I was attacked in a group (3 or more people). I carry a pocket knife in everyday life and if I expect to be in a bad neighborhood I often carry another pocket knife. Thinking about legal reprocussions in the middle of a fight in which drawing a knife is required sounds like a great way to get hurt/killed.


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## MisterMike

Never mind pulling a knife, you should know your state laws intimately even if you are just going to carry one. What kind/size/carrying methods are permitted and where?

Second, if you are going to wield it in a confrontation, you'd better know how to use it, which leads to, have it out as soon as you can if you deem it necessary.

Things to think about:

It's going to look a little different if you cut somebody with a ballisong/bowie/Ka-Bar/double-edged knife vs. your Swiss Army with tweesers.

If it is one opponent who is unarmed, you'd better be convincing when you tell the police/court you feared for you life.


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## Cryozombie

Enson said:
			
		

> personally i would pull it when i felt i needed it. i know that sounds a little dull...



That was exactly what I was going to say...


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## Northstorm

I fight empty handed when no weapon is visible, but my knife is easily accessible. If I were getting badly beaten, I still would never use a weapon against an unarmed opponent.  That is just my own rule.


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## DeLamar.J

You pull your knife when your life is in danger, but your still going to go to jail. Its a wonderful world.


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## kenpohands

Interesting question. Many of you train with a knife all the time. Howmany have actually been in a knife fight? That changes everything.
Anyway, I PERSONALLY would never pull a blade on an unarmed individual. If I were in the street, from a distance(witnesses) I was the one drawing a weapon. I would be breaking the law by just drawing a weapon on someone. I should be able to handle myself one on one unarmed. However, if a knife were to be drawn on me, there again I should be able to handle a knife attack unarmed, I may use his weapon on him, but it would have to be a real life of death situation for me to draw. I carry a customized Karambit all the time. It has been waved for fast draw. I would first use it in the closed position as an impact device, I would deploy ONLY if I needed to and I would Cut ONLY what I had to to stop the attacker. I would NEVER kill an attacker just cuz I could. A cut Pectorallis or bicep will stop an attack , be assured. On the street the intent is not to kill , but to terrorize/injure the victim into giving up money or something. On the battle field the intent is to KILL, Therefore using lethal retaliation on a civilian attack is going to end you up in prison somewhere. 98% of knife stabbings on  the street end up in the ER then  OR, 98% end up surviving. Only trainied knifers go for the kill with their cuts/stabs. Most just stab to the extremities and torso and run. SO the excuse that you would rather be in Jail than dead is a weak one. Being in prision is like being dead in my opinion. All my reasons mentioned are documented by doing time with the Chief MD at the Martin Luther King and County ER in Los Angeles. 4-5 knife victims a weekend. I wanted to see first hand and talk to someone who saved all these guys firsthand. THe stats I quoted are from witnessing first hand knife stabbings in the ER. They save most of the victims believe it or not. Most stabbings puncture lungs or puncture intestines, occassional kidney and liver. Very few cut major arteries. The heart is very protected in an knife fight. It takes a skilled attack to hit the heart and a pretty long blade.  How many REAL gang bangers do you know with stab scars? I know MAny.

This is JUST MY own Opinion. I am not telling you urban RAMBOS how to conduct yourself in an altercation, Kill and cut away. We all make choices, and we must all live with the outcomes of such choices.
Angelo Collado :asian:  :asian:


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## MA-Caver

My knives (having owned many) are Tools. They always have been and always will be. They become weapons when the situation calls for it. Thankfully as of late they haven't been called to serve... for a long time. In fact the last time was a little over 15 years ago that I've had to use my "tool" as a weapon. Oddly enough... I didn't consider it as a tool then but as a weapon. Am I making sense? Basically I've changed view points.

Now-a-days I will only draw my knife if I am in that life-threatening situation, which hasn't happened in a very long time... 15 years in fact.  As Airyu@hotmail.com said... being aware of your surroundings will greatly reduce the possibility of having to use any type of force. Even your own fists/feet ... which as MA's we're training them to be, no? 
Knives (as I'm sure Sharp Phil would agree) are merely extensions of our fists/hands. 
Were I to find myself having to use my *ahem* tool in a confrontation then if possible I'd lose it afterwards and tell whatever LEO's that they cut themselves on a beer bottle or something. That is... if I didn't vacate the area fast enough. Cause I'm not going to be hanging around in a SD situation after defusing it. If the assailant is going to die then I'd call 911... while enroute to a different place.


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