# Front-on, side-on, and evasive techniques



## Yeung (Aug 20, 2019)

Workshop on the front-on, side-on, and evasive techniques in Yoingchunquan (Wing Chun) from 11:30 to 13:00, Saturday 31st August 2019, at the Trinity Methodist Church Centre, Royland Road, Loughborough LE11 2EH, it is suitable for people with any background in martial arts, and those who are lacking mobility in their practice of Wing Chun.


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## Marnetmar (Aug 21, 2019)

Yoing yourself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2019)

Yeung said:


> Workshop on the front-on, side-on, and evasive techniques in Yoingchunquan (Wing Chun) from 11:30 to 13:00, Saturday 31st August 2019, at the Trinity Methodist Church Centre, Royland Road, Loughborough LE11 2EH, it is suitable for people with any background in martial arts, and those who are lacking mobility in their practice of Wing Chun.


That sounds like an interesting seminar. Make them move it to the Southeastern US and I'll show up.


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## Yeung (Aug 22, 2019)

Gulao Wing Chun is exclusively based on the side-body techniques from loose-hand sets, sticking hands, and dummy techniques; Guangzhou Wing Chun or Sum Nung Wing Chun has 12 loose-hand sets for beginners in addition to forms and dummy techniques; Yip Man Wing Chun focus on sticking hands in addition to forms and dummy techniques. The front-on, side-on, and evasive techniques of Yongchunquan is unique for close-up fighting. I thought these techniques should be of interest for practitioners to evaluate them.


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 24, 2019)

Interesting In Sum Nung Wing Chun we practice both Facing and Side body WC. But yes skill in movement is a hallmark as well.


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## Yeung (Aug 24, 2019)

Master Sum Nung developed the 12 sets for beginners:


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## JP3 (Aug 24, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Interesting In Sum Nung Wing Chun we practice both Facing and Side body WC. But yes skill in movement is a hallmark as well.


Lots of styles of MA have side-on paradigm... others have front-on. It is interesting to me how to flow naturally from one type/set to the other and back again while in practice/execution.

Muay Thai for me seems very direct front,  maintaining directly facing the opponent positions... but then I find myself when in lateral evasion going right into the side-on 3/4 stance positioning of TKD/HKD... then re-orienting to directly facing when the tactical shifts back to a more pro-MT thing.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 24, 2019)

Yeung said:


> Master Sum Nung developed the 12 sets for beginners:


Looks like a thrust punch to me but with knees in.   What's the purpose of keeping the knees inward with that punch?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2019)

Yeung said:


> Workshop on the front-on, side-on, and evasive techniques in Yoingchunquan (Wing Chun) from 11:30 to 13:00,


What's your definition of front-on and side-on. Is it front door (between 2 arms) and side door (outside 2 arms)?


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## geezer (Aug 25, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Looks like a thrust punch to me but with knees in.   What's the purpose of keeping the knees inward with that punch?



Interesting question. In most _Yip Man _lineages, that punch, called ¨battle punch¨ or "arrow punch¨ is taken from the long pole movements and is delivered from a _horse-stance._ I recently saw an instructor from another WC lineage use it from a narrow stance similar to this in sparring as a long range punch. 

Personally, I didn't like the movement (used with the upright an narrow stance) as it seemed to give away his back ...more so IMO because of the high stance. A low horse seems much stronger with this technique, and it can really intrude and disrupt your opponent's center. At least I've had people do that to me!


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 25, 2019)

To Answer your question in short, Practice Stepping footwork....I suggest practicing footwork for atleast 20 minutes a week. You should divide it up with partner drills, solo practice or even using it in chi sau. Once you get comfortable with all three i suggest using your footwork from the WC in sparring. At first you may be lousy but if you keep doing the first three. Solo, Sansou and Chi Sau then your footwork will become natural and you will do it like its second nature. When i first learn WC footwork i hated it. We would be drilled for what seem like and hour doing different steps from front step, back step, circle step, counter step, and side steps. Over and over again a different step would be called out and we have to react and do that step at the time of the call as well as turning stance or shifting stance. We turn our bodies and go in both directions. After awhile it becomes second nature. An I found myself using it naturally in sparring. But its great to be able to fight both ways because sometimes it throws off your opponent side body and facing.




JP3 said:


> Lots of styles of MA have side-on paradigm... others have front-on. It is interesting to me how to flow naturally from one type/set to the other and back again while in practice/execution.
> 
> Muay Thai for me seems very direct front,  maintaining directly facing the opponent positions... but then I find myself when in lateral evasion going right into the side-on 3/4 stance positioning of TKD/HKD... then re-orienting to directly facing when the tactical shifts back to a more pro-MT thing.



My Sidai hit someone with that what you call a thrust punch when was in college. That guy was on the ground for like 30 minutes. He was hurt. i thought we needed to call the hospital. Its crazy. How ever. the reason for the knees being in is for intensive purpose training and also circumstance. I would never use that punch as an outside attack or to close the gap or gain entry with my legs in YEE Gee Kim Yeung Ma. I would use more of a side horse or riding horse stance and move comfortably. But The true purpose of the arrow punch or even the dragon punch is to use when im on the inside. When i have a bridge. An you are off balanced or trapped I will explode into your face with that punch. The Yee Gee Kim Yeung ma stance is use to sink into ground and use the floor as leverage to generate power at the end of the punch. 


JowGaWolf said:


> Looks like a thrust punch to me but with knees in.   What's the purpose of keeping the knees inward with that punch?



The Horse Stance in practical fighting is too low. Atleast if you truly rooting in your horse stance. I perfer using that horse stance against a sweep. How ever. the YEE KIM YEUNG MA or clamping Goat stance is the WC equivalent to the MaBu Stance. Alls i can say is as your STRENGTH
 and POWER progresses in the WC you will feel the energy from this punch and believe me regardless if your punching the throat or kidneys with this punch it packs stopping power because your using the whole body to punch. 



geezer said:


> Interesting question. In most _Yip Man _lineages, that punch, called ¨battle punch¨ or "arrow punch¨ is taken from the long pole movements and is delivered from a _horse-stance._ I recently saw an instructor from another WC lineage use it from a narrow stance similar to this in sparring as a long range punch.
> 
> Personally, I didn't like the movement (used with the upright an narrow stance) as it seemed to give away his back ...more so IMO because of the high stance. A low horse seems much stronger with this technique, and it can really intrude and disrupt your opponent's center. At least I've had people do that to me!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I perfer using that horse stance against a sweep.


The horse stance is not suitable to be used to against a sweep. The bow-arrow stance is a better choice.


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## geezer (Aug 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The horse stance is not suitable to be used to against a sweep. The bow-arrow stance is a better choice.



I would just prefer _a a bow and arrow_. Then I could take them out 30-50 yards away. 

BTW, how come in martial arts archery nobody talks much about fighting with_ hand-held arrows?_ Seems like it must have happened a lot if you got overrun. You know, a hand-held arrow, or several, with a sharp war-head could be a pretty useful at close quarters. Better than nothing, anyway.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 25, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> The Horse Stance in practical fighting is too low. Atleast if you truly rooting in your horse stance.


In the system that I train the horse stance ranges in height.  I can be low for defense against grappling or it can be higher up for mobility.  The horse stance is not static, it rises and sinks.  You can watch videos of people riding horses and you will see that their sitting position changes. It rises and it sinks.




Yoshiyahu said:


> because your using the whole body to punch.



For example,
Low horse stance.






High horse stance





Thanks for your explanation.  I was just curious at way the stance was so closed like that.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The horse stance is not suitable to be used to against a sweep. The bow-arrow stance is a better choice.


lol.. I thought I was losing my mind.  I didn't remember saying anything about sweeping lol.   The quote messed up on you Wang.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 25, 2019)

geezer said:


> I would just prefer _a a bow and arrow_. Then I could take them out 30-50 yards away.
> 
> BTW, how come in martial arts archery nobody talks much about fighting with_ hand-held arrows?_ Seems like it must have happened a lot if you got overrun. You know, a hand-held arrow, or several, with a sharp war-head could be a pretty useful at close quarters. Better than nothing, anyway.


ha ha ha.  good question ignore the sword on your side and just stab them with an arrow. lol.  













This guy spends 16 minutes explaining why you can't club someone with a bow.  If you are actually going into battle then you have more than just a bow.  Drop the bow and the arrows, take out your sword and be done with it. lol.  I don't know what to say about today's younger generation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.. I thought I was losing my mind.  I didn't remember saying anything about sweeping lol.   The quote messed up on you Wang.





Yoshiyahu said:


> I perfer using that horse stance against a sweep.


Sorry I was quoting Yoshiyahu's post instead. Because the angle and weight distribution, the horse stance is not suitable for that purpose.

This is the bow-arrow stance that I'm talking about. When your opponent sweeps you, you can shift into a bow-arrow stance with 70% weight on your front leg. You also turn your shin bone into your opponent's sweep to stop his sweep. This is force against force approach.







Of course you can simply bend your leg at your knee joint and let your opponent's sweeping leg to pass under your leg. That will be leg escape approach.​


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course you can simply bend your leg at your knee joint and let your opponent's sweeping leg to pass under your leg. That will be leg escape approach.


This is what use the cat stance for.  Depending on the type of sweep being done, force vs force can be bad.  I had a couple of experiences where force vs force stop the sweep but then it set me up for being thrown.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is what use the cat stance for.  Depending on the type of sweep being done, force vs force can be bad.  I had a couple of experiences where force vs force stop the sweep but then it set me up for being thrown.


I still remember when I was a beginner, my long fist teacher asked us to stand in cat stance (empty stance). He then swept every student's front leg to see who will be down.

During the last 2 rounds of my last SC tournament, my opponent used foot sweep on me twice. I turned my shin bone into his sweep, I then grabbed his sweeping leg and took him down twice and won that tournament.

You are right,

1. You sweep your opponent.
2. Your opponent bend forward to catch your leg.
3. You pull his neck toward you and take him down.

Your sweep can put yourself in risk. Your sweep can also set your opponent up and put him in risk. It depends on who has better training.


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 25, 2019)

Very Good comments i love it. Well Wang. I say either or, I agree you can use the bow and arrow stance to put more of your body behind it. But for me and my stature that would be committing to much of my body forward. I would use the arrow stance as transition from the MaBu stance. I want to be double weighted side body when you sweep. So i can transition easily to either side. How ever this is just my experienced. I can not attest to yours. 



Kung Fu Wang said:


> The horse stance is not suitable to be used to against a sweep. The bow-arrow stance is a better choice.




But the bow and arrow stance places my center to close to them. I want to be in a neutral position able to transition easier. I find using the low horse stance then is easier than i can go back to up right WC posture. Or down punch if my opponent is off balance. But im speaking of a floor sweep or low sweep. 


geezer said:


> I would just prefer _a a bow and arrow_. Then I could take them out 30-50 yards away.
> 
> BTW, how come in martial arts archery nobody talks much about fighting with_ hand-held arrows?_ Seems like it must have happened a lot if you got overrun. You know, a hand-held arrow, or several, with a sharp war-head could be a pretty useful at close quarters. Better than nothing, anyway.


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## Yeung (Aug 26, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your definition of front-on and side-on. Is it front door (between 2 arms) and side door (outside 2 arms)?



This is front-on, and side-on is where the opponent cannot see both shoulders.


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