# Kosho Shorei Ryu



## Xue Sheng (Jan 11, 2006)

I have done mainly Chinese Martial arts for the last several years, Tai Chi and internal Kung Fu, but I started with Japanese Martial Arts and I recently came across Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate and did some reading about it. So far I like what I read

I was wondering if anyone could give me any insight to Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate?

There is a school near my home and I was just wondering what other people thought about this style of Karate

Thanks


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## Danjo (Jan 11, 2006)

Wasn't that Robert Trias' art?


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 11, 2006)

No, Trias invented Shuri Ryu, after seeing a brief martial arts demo somewhere in the orient and getting some training from some Americans later on.

Kosho Shuri is the creation of James Mitose who studied Karate and Jujitsu in Hawaii then invented some wild story about his family being an old line of Samurai and all the docuemntation was lost when the temple was destroyed.

Actually, the Kosho Shuri has some good technique - just bogus history.

Mitose and Trias are kind of linked though as both of thier fairy tales involve 10th Dans given to them by famous teachers and made up relationships with Choki Motobu.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> No, Trias invented Shuri Ryu, after seeing a brief martial arts demo somewhere in the orient and getting some training from some Americans later on.
> 
> Kosho Shuri is the creation of James Mitose who studied Karate and Jujitsu in Hawaii then invented some wild story about his family being an old line of Samurai and all the docuemntation was lost when the temple was destroyed.
> 
> ...


 
I'm curious to know how you know it is all bogus?


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## Grenadier (Jan 11, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> No, Trias invented Shuri Ryu, after seeing a brief martial arts demo somewhere in the orient and getting some training from some Americans later on.


 
Your source?  I would be quite interested in seeing these tidbits of information.  The senior sensei of the style that trained under him seem to be rather excellent Karate-ka.

Just as a bit of history, Trias trained under Tung Gee Hsing, Hoy Yuan Ping, and Yasuhiro Konishi.  While it's true he did get some training from fellow American martial artists (such as Roy Oshiro), your above statement seems a bit... abbreviated.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 11, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> No, Trias invented Shuri Ryu, after seeing a brief martial arts demo somewhere in the orient and getting some training from some Americans later on.
> 
> Kosho Shuri is the creation of James Mitose who studied Karate and Jujitsu in Hawaii then invented some wild story about his family being an old line of Samurai and all the docuemntation was lost when the temple was destroyed.
> 
> ...


 
1. Mitose never claimed that motobu was his uncle.......that was fabricated by someone that assumed something because motobu's picture was in mitose's book.
2. the jury is still out on the origins of kosho......and btw, if you're practicing kempo...any kempo in north america, say, "thank you james mitose."
3. Mitose never claimed his family was samurai.........not in any book, or any stories i have read. this is more wishful thinking.
4. its kosho shorei kempo....and robert trias taught shuri ryu karate.
5. kosho does not have techniques.

good try though.......


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## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> 5. kosho does not have techniques.


 
That's interesting.  What does it have?


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 11, 2006)

everything we do in kosho is based on principle. 
there are no set techniques.......you might look at a situation and then pick apart and apply certain principles to it.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 11, 2006)

click on the skski.net link in my sig.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> 1
> 2. the jury is still out on the origins of kosho


 
At some point, I think we all need to ask "so what?"  All martial arts were created at some point in time by PEOPLE.  Some were created long ago, some were created not so long ago.  Those currently in existence are still changing and evolving, and new arts spring forth from them.  As long as the art is effective and useful and logical, and it wasn't just a repackaging of something that already existed, and it wasn't done to stoke the ego of the new "Grandmaster" who created it, then who cares how or when it came into being?

I haven't studied, nor had the opportunity to see Kosho in action so I cannot comment on its effectiveness.  But assuming it is effective, its origins shouldn't really matter all that much. It is clearly an established system.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 11, 2006)

like any system.....it either works for you or doesnt.
its not the easiest system for people to pick up simply because it does not have techniques that you could catalogue and file.
The people that knew mitose said he was an excellent martial artist that had a style that was somewhat unorthodox but still effective. 
the people that knew mitose and studied under him, that eventually had a problem with him, say he sucked......but still brag about studying under him.
another point of contention for people is that kosho ryu is not mentioned in the bugei ryuha daijiten.........big deal....there are lots of arts out there and it would be impossible to catalogue every one......nothing is 100%.
if you ever have a chance to go to a seminar with bruce juchnik hanshi, check it out.....but keep an open mind. 
its not for everyone.


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## Martial Tucker (Jan 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I have done mainly Chinese Martial arts for the last several years, Tai Chi and internal Kung Fu, but I started with Japanese Martial Arts and I recently came across Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate and did some reading about it. So far I like what I read
> 
> I was wondering if anyone could give me any insight to Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate?
> 
> ...


My primary style is TKD, but I have met and trained a little with the current head of the Kosho system, Bruce Juchnik. There is much argument over Juchnik's history/relationship with Mitose, and I have no interest either way in the argument. Regarding Kosho specifically as a style, it is my feeling (BASED ON JUST A SMALL AMOUNT OF BACKGROUND OBSERVATION AND INVOLVEMENT) that Kosho is on the "softer" end of the karate spectrum, with more emphasis on evasion and circular motion than most. It seems to be a "reactive" style rather than attacking, in that you react to your opponents attack, and counter with a series of rapid moves, each determined "on the fly" by what your opponent does.


Again, this is a very general, and largely uneducated observation. I invite and encourage any Kosho practitioners to feel free to modify or contradict what I have said.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 11, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> My primary style is TKD, but I have met and trained a little with the current head of the Kosho system, Bruce Juchnik. There is much argument over Juchnik's history/relationship with Mitose, and I have no interest either way in the argument. Regarding Kosho specifically as a style, it is my feeling (BASED ON JUST A SMALL AMOUNT OF BACKGROUND OBSERVATION AND INVOLVEMENT)
> *1. that Kosho is on the "softer" end of the karate spectrum,* *with more emphasis on evasion and circular motion than most*.
> 
> *2.It seems to be a "reactive" style rather than attacking, in that you react to your opponents attack*,
> ...


 
1. You are correct about kosho being soft.....it is more akin to aikido but with hitting, throwing and escaping.

2. Kosho is considered a preparatory art, not reactionary. this is one of the hallmark principles of the style.....you stay one or 2 steps ahead of your opponent. How you may ask? its all in understanding kamae and the escaping arts.

3. Kosho practitioners are known for having quick hands and feet....kind of like a boxer. we dont practice set techniques for this reason......this is where it may appear that kosho is reactionary.....you act according to your opponents level of commitment to his attack.

mitose states in what is self defense? " Kenpo art is similar to judo atemi, but the art and philosophy is different. How to maneuver and have your opponent place himself into a position to be attacked is taught by Kenpo."

he also states, "It is the promotion of the offensive power through the rational use of spirit and body."

kosho is all about offense.......but its focus is self defense......not sport.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 11, 2006)

"and Yasuhiro Konishi"
This isnot true and has always been denied by Konishi Sensei.
Trias and his people used to claim that trias got his 10th Dan from Konishi.  That has always been known to be a lie.  Now some of Trias' students claim he got his 10th Dan from Gogen Yamaguchi.
His students may be good at what they do, that does not mean Trias was not a liar and a hustler.

Sorry for the mis-spellings.  I realized it after I was done but didn't get back to edit.

Mitose did claim to come from a Samurai family.  He said that when he was 5 he was sent back to Japan to train in the ancient arts at the family temple.  At the start of WWII he said he felt patriotic towards America and wanted to help the war effort so he started teaching the previously secret art of self defense.  His claim was that the arts were traditionally only taught during times of war. 

There were always Asian martial arts in Hawaii, Polynesian arts too.  "Karate" was introduced very early on, only it was called Kenpo or Kempo.  In 1934 Chojun Miyagi visited Honolulu and the article in the Honolululu Advertiser idetified his art as "Karate Kempo".  The term Kenpo had been in use in Okinawa and Hawaii before Mitose came along. 

Mitose likely trained with some of Miyagi's students and there were even some of Motobu's students who made to the islands.  He may have trained with some of them.  He also learned some Jujitsu from Henry Okazaki.  I have seen group photos with Mitose in the background. Although since his conviction for rackateering and conspiracy to commit murder, the Okazak family has taken steps to distance themselves from Mitose and now say he was never a student.

I have lineage to Mitose, but he can be an embarrassment at times.
He was an odd fellow who also walked around dressed as a Catholic Priest pretending to be some mystic Oriental sage, babbling in gibberish that his followers took as being to deep for ordinary people to understand.  

Like I said, you will find some good technique, but a lot of nonsense. Like the "we don't have techniques" statement.  Good luck with it.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2006)

Once again, how do you know what you claim?

You call Trias a liar and hustler.  Please substantiate that.

You claim membership in a kenpo lineage.  What is it, and how does it substantiate your claims?

You claim Kosho doesn't have techniques.  A kosho practitioner here has refuted that.  How do you substantiate your claim?

Your claims may well be correct, I certainly don't know.  But you are also levelling some strong accusations and you may be starting a brawl.  When you make claims like this, you better be prepared to back up what you say.  Give us your proof.


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## Martial Tucker (Jan 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone could give me any insight to Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate?



I guess this is none of my business, and I'm not a moderator, but this poor guy asked for basic info on Kosho, and in minutes it's turned into a food fight.
I'm guessing that the bickering is not the "insight to Kosho" that Xue Sheng (who originated this thread) was hoping for.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I guess this is none of my business, and I'm not a moderator, but this poor guy asked for basic info on Kosho, and in minutes it's turned into a food fight.
> I'm guessing that the bickering is not the "insight to Kosho" that Xue Sheng (who originated this thread) was hoping for.


 
you're right, man, sorry.  I just hate to see bad manners on the forums.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 11, 2006)

*You call Trias a liar and hustler. Please substantiate that.*
Trias made a lot of claims that never added up.  Like learning an ancient form of Karate from a Chinese guy.  He later claimed to have gotten his 10th Dan from Konishi.  At the time that WWII was raging on, we are supposed to believe that he had time to study and train to become a Karate master.  That in itself is hard to believe.  Others doing research have found that at the time he claimed to be training in Okinawa, his military records showed he was on a ship in the Solomon Islands.  I doubt there were many Karate Masters (Chinese or Okinawan) on a U.S. Navy Ship in the Solomon Islands.
Like most others of his kind, what you find in the Trias history is an ever changing story that continues to change each time one of the myths is shot down.  Like the time that changed the 10th Dan ranking from Konishi to Yamaguchi.

*You claim membership in a kenpo lineage. What is it, and how does it substantiate your claims?*
Like I said, back to Mitose.  Also to Okazaki.  It substantiates my claims because of the history passed down from those who were there and knew Mitose.

*You claim Kosho doesn't have techniques. A kosho practitioner here has refuted that. How do you substantiate your claim?*
I did not claim that kosho had no techniques.  That was someone else.  I said that statement was typical of the nonsense found in Kosho Shorei.  It's just more of people making idiots out of themselves by pushing the pseudo-intelelctual pshych-babble that is typical of Mitose and those who cling to his fantasies.


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## Martial Tucker (Jan 11, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> you're right, man, sorry.  I just hate to see bad manners on the forums.




Agreed, and my comment was not directed at just you. Just making a general
statement....


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 11, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I guess this is none of my business, and I'm not a moderator, but this poor guy asked for basic info on Kosho, and in minutes it's turned into a food fight.
> I'm guessing that the bickering is not the "insight to Kosho" that Xue Sheng (who originated this thread) was hoping for.


 
All I origianlly wanted was basic info, I was considering looking into the school that is near me. Now I am sorry I asked the question and started the problem


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## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> All I origianlly wanted was basic info, I was considering looking into the school that is near me. Now I am sorry I asked the question and started the problem


 
Don't be sorry!!  It was a legitimate question.  The thread got misdirected, but your question is good, and this could be a good discussion.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 11, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> *You call Trias a liar and hustler. Please substantiate that.*
> Trias made a lot of claims that never added up. Like learning an ancient form of Karate from a Chinese guy. He later claimed to have gotten his 10th Dan from Konishi. At the time that WWII was raging on, we are supposed to believe that he had time to study and train to become a Karate master. That in itself is hard to believe. Others doing research have found that at the time he claimed to be training in Okinawa, his military records showed he was on a ship in the Solomon Islands. I doubt there were many Karate Masters (Chinese or Okinawan) on a U.S. Navy Ship in the Solomon Islands.
> Like most others of his kind, what you find in the Trias history is an ever changing story that continues to change each time one of the myths is shot down. Like the time that changed the 10th Dan ranking from Konishi to Yamaguchi.
> 
> ...


 
you make a lot of accusations with nothing to back it up.
to be truthful, you dont sound like you know a whole lot about kosho or mitose......because a lot of the drivel you're passing off, no one in the skski states any of it........not that i know of anyway.
whats your lineage to mitose?
if he is such an embarrassment, why even mention it?
he never passed himself off as a catholic priest......jeez

you're just another one of the malcontents that spews off about something that they have no idea about.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 11, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Don't be sorry!! It was a legitimate question. The thread got misdirected, but your question is good, and this could be a good discussion.


 
yes, there is no need to be sorry.  It was a legit question and you basically got a good answer.

At that school you will likely learn good self defense.  If that is all you are looking for then this might be a good school for you.  Check it out.

You just need to know that you will hear a lot of nonsense about Mitose.
He was a decent martial artist.  Not great, but actually pretty good.

As a person, he was a scoundrel and an outcast who died in prison.  he was loan shark and an extortionist who ordered  one his students to kill a man and his wife who stopped making payments to him.  He never "passed himself off as a catholic priest", he just war the clothes of a catholic priest as he pretended to be some kind of a mystic Japanese monk from a lost temple in Japan.  The information is out there in other sources.


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## kelly keltner (Jan 12, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> *You call Trias a liar and hustler. Please substantiate that.*
> Trias made a lot of claims that never added up.  Like learning an ancient form of Karate from a Chinese guy.  He later claimed to have gotten his 10th Dan from Konishi.  At the time that WWII was raging on, we are supposed to believe that he had time to study and train to become a Karate master.  That in itself is hard to believe.  Others doing research have found that at the time he claimed to be training in Okinawa, his military records showed he was on a ship in the Solomon Islands.  I doubt there were many Karate Masters (Chinese or Okinawan) on a U.S. Navy Ship in the Solomon Islands.
> Like most others of his kind, what you find in the Trias history is an ever changing story that continues to change each time one of the myths is shot down.  Like the time that changed the 10th Dan ranking from Konishi to Yamaguchi.
> 
> ...


WOW


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## kroh (Jan 12, 2006)

Xue Sheng, 

I have been training since I was a kid and I am now in my thirties.  I am niether a kung fu mAsTaH nor some huge schollar (As evident in my spelling).  I have recently begun training in the Kosho Ryu and I can give you a non-politcal evaluation from a newbie.  

Since I have been there (two months) they basically assesed my skill level in the martial arts (as it was pretty evident I could walk and chew gum at the same time...but had trouble rubbing my head too).  Once they had a feel for me, I pretty much was just given over to the rest of the class.  The majority of the people that are training in the system also train in other martial arts.  I haven't met anyone who, "only trains in kosho."

The class is not taught as a standardized class that you might find in some of the Americanized Kenpo systems out there.  It has a different flavor to it and if you are interested in very structured training I would recomend something else (American Kenpo has some great stuff where everything builds on what came before).  One day you could be training how to attack and the next day you could be working on how to relate attacks and defenses to using weapons (or apart from).  History (both Japanese and of the system in general) plays a part in the training as does understanding how to relay the terminology in Japanese.  This has been taught so far in a way so that even those with no exposure to Japanese or their culture isn't overwhelmed.  

A usual class begins with something to get the juices warm (Such as ukemi waza, or calling out terminology and the students trying to relate the movment with the correct Japanese term).  After that a certain principle of movement or defense might be decided on for the day and then worked to ad nauseum.  One thing I have noticed about the kosho training so far (and I like this about them) is that you don't work a series of 5 to ten techniques that have nothing to do with each other for five minutes a pop and then spar with none of the techniques that you trained for the night. The classes build on an over-riding principle used in different ways.  For example, the other night we were working using joint manipulations as off balancing techniques.  The class started with ukemi.  We then went into basic locks.  After that we used the locks in various situations from different positions (across the octagon, a pattern prevalent in the training).  We then put the lock into context to find it in the midst of an attack (atemi inserts were a lot of fun when doing this).  Next came trying to get the takedown or off balance manuever against a resisting opponent.  Class over...hour and a half goes by like that.  

Certain mental aspects are also a part of the training.  The system revolves heavily around the use of an octagon pattern for teaching it's principles.  Philosphies of combat range the gamut from escaping situations to attacking using some pretty complex geometry allowing your attacker to beat themselves up (using your fist of course).   The use of Japanese terminology is prevalent throughout the training as is learning things like reiki (ettiquette, Japanese style) and the manerisms and layout of Japanese dojo.  The teachers where I am training are very relaxed individuals ("Sensei, are we starting class soon...?" --- "Relax bud...class will start when it starts...anyone got any coffee?").  They are personable and interested in teaching the principles of the art.  Everyone is approachable.  Good class.

I would characterize the system as a soft style that uses tai sabiki (body position) and atemi/kuzushi (striking / unbalancing) to off balance an opponent so you can either escape (the primary goal) control (so you can calm him down or leave) or clock (nothing says loveing like blasting a guy's lights out).  I am having fun with it as I went their to learn to utilize their footwork and am coming away with many more useful principles.  I would recomend taking the martial art (if you have trained in Chinese styles this is not that far of a strecth ) and staying out of the politics behind it.  

Regards, 
Walt


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 12, 2006)

excellent description, Walt!
There is definitely a method with Kosho, but it is a more difficult art to learn and to be able to utilize (kind of what you  hear people say about aikido).
I only train in Kosho.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 12, 2006)

Walt

Your description is what I was looking for.

Thank You


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## kroh (Jan 12, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Walt
> 
> Your description is what I was looking for.
> 
> Thank You


 
You are very welcome, Sir.  I wish you the best in your training.
Regards, 
Walt


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 12, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Walt
> 
> Your description is what I was looking for.
> 
> Thank You


 
And it is a good general description of the ideas and methods of most of the arts that grew up in Hawaii and are now generically referred to as Kenpo Jujitsu.  The blending of the early Karate/Kenpo from Okinawa with the the Chinese and other Japanese arts that had been on the islands for decades and perhaps centuries.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 12, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I have done mainly Chinese Martial arts for the last several years, Tai Chi and internal Kung Fu, but I started with Japanese Martial Arts and I recently came across Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate and did some reading about it. So far I like what I read
> 
> I was wondering if anyone could give me any insight to Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate?
> 
> ...


 
I have seen some videos of Mr. Bruce Juchnik showing Kosho-ryu. This is very interesting system. I don't think it is like other Karate I have seen. It has many throwing techniques and Mr. Juchnik is so effortless at doing them. I think it's more Jujutsu or even Aikido than Karate. Very elegant.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 12, 2006)

I was doing a web search and I found "the official tracy kempo site" and on it I found James Mitose's book, It looks interesting.

Thank you to all for your assistance.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 12, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> I have seen some videos of Mr. Bruce Juchnik showing Kosho-ryu. This is very interesting system. I don't think it is like other Karate I have seen. It has many throwing techniques and Mr. Juchnik is so effortless at doing them. I think it's more Jujutsu or even Aikido than Karate. Very elegant.


 
this is a good observation.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 12, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I have done mainly Chinese Martial arts for the last several years, Tai Chi and internal Kung Fu, but I started with Japanese Martial Arts and I recently came across Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate and did some reading about it. So far I like what I read
> 
> I was wondering if anyone could give me any insight to Kosho Shorei Ryu kempo karate?
> 
> ...


 
do you know if the school is under sei kosho shorei kai?


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## Danjo (Jan 13, 2006)

Shouldn't this thread be in the Kenpo/Kempo section? Or maybe General Martial Arts?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 14, 2006)

Probably, I apologize; being new to the site I did not realize that there was a section specifically for Kempo/Kenpo. After I realized that there was I did put this question in that section and it had little response. 

Also, being trained mainly in Chinese styles, and not being trained in Karate, I did not realize that Kempo/Kenpo Karate was different than Karate. I thought that if it was a Ryu it was similar.

I did try to see if there was a way of deleting the thread, once I found the Kempo section.


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## kroh (Jan 14, 2006)

One of the things that you could do is to message a moderator and they could move the thread.  

Did you check out the Kosho Shorei Ryu Class near you?  IF so post some details as I am insterested in how you made out.

Regards,
Walt


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 14, 2006)

The thread is already 3 pages long but if you all think it should be in general or kenpo  i'm will to move it


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 14, 2006)

I originated this thread, and I acknowledged my error, and although though the first part of the thread is taken up by an argument about Mitose, 3 pages later I see no reason to move it. 

Since I also put this same thread under Kempo and got, by comparison, virtual no response, it would seem to me that this is the place for it. 

Also I was under the impression that Kempo was a type of Karate


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## kroh (Jan 15, 2006)

Karate-Do (the way of the empty or China hand) is a pretty area specific term refering the martial arts of the Ryukyu islands (Okinawa).  It is used to describe these fighting arts much like Jujutsu is used for the fighting arts of Japan.  These terms are usually area and time period specific. The problems come in when people with no real understanding for the language or culture start using those terms for things that, in actuallity, have nothing to do with what they say it does.  It only serves to prove that the term "Lazy American" isn't that far of a stretch for most of us. 

The term Kempo is a general term that can either mean boxing or in general fighting arts (the way of the fist or the fist method).  Other terms that can be used include bugei or kogusoku.

Did you actually check out the Kosho class?

Regards,
Walt


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 15, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> Karate-Do (the way of the empty or China hand) is a pretty area specific term refering the martial arts of the Ryukyu islands (Okinawa). It is used to describe these fighting arts much like Jujutsu is used for the fighting arts of Japan. These terms are usually area and time period specific. The problems come in when people with no real understanding for the language or culture start using those terms for things that, in actuallity, have nothing to do with what they say it does. It only serves to prove that the term "Lazy American" isn't that far of a stretch for most of us.
> 
> The term Kempo is a general term that can either mean boxing or in general fighting arts (the way of the fist or the fist method). Other terms that can be used include bugei or kogusoku.
> 
> ...


 
I have more understanding of the language and the culture than you know. I apologize if I offended you by my possible improper usage that was not my intension. 

But I based my definition on the following,

Karate - (_lit_ Empty Hand) The Okinawan form of self-defense that was introduced to Japan in the early 20th century. Today there are countless most of which trace their roots to one or two traditional Okinawan lineages of Karate-jitsu, Shuri-te and Naha-te. (Tuttle Dictionary of Martial Arts)

And the fact that I generally see Kempo/Kenpo and Karate used interchangeably. I admit I did not research that further to see if that was correct or not. If for no other reason than that I suppose I could be referred to as a "Lazy American"

However this lead me to believe that Kempo/Kenpo comes from Karate much the same way Chen Style Tai chi came from Zhang San Feng. But I could be wrong in this assumption. 

Also a Japanese style such as Karate-jitsu is fundamentally different than Karate-do

"Jitsu" is a war art were a "do" is not

Also, if my memory serves me correctly Kempo and Kenpo, although the same, one is a Japanese translation were the other is Chinese.

As for the class, no I have not yet checked it out. Life became incredibly busy in the last few weeks with no sign of letting up soon.

But with that being said, I have decided that sense my original question about Kosho Shorei Ryu started a fight between two people about the Character of James Mitose, and this seems to be degenerating into a fight about Karate not being Kempo/Kenpo, I would like to request, if this is possible, to have this thread closed.

I am looking to learn, not fight. Fighting is easy; conversation is, apparently, hard.


Also for anyone interested I recently found this site 
Sei Kosho Shorei Kai International
http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/index.html

It appears to have a lot of information that I have been looking for.

Thank you to all that gave me informat


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 15, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> *1. Also, if my memory serves me correctly Kempo and Kenpo, although the same, one is a Japanese translation were the other is Chinese.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
1. this is incorrect......both are japanese .....they are just english phonetic representations. some people spell it with an m....some spell it with an n. which one is correct? neither.....it's spelled &#25331;&#27861;

2. the link in my sig line goes directly to this site.......which is where, i believe, i tried to direct you. It's Bruce Juchnik Hanshi's webpage.


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## kroh (Jan 15, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I have more understanding of the language and the culture than you know. I apologize if I offended you by my possible improper usage that was not my intension.
> 
> But I based my definition on the following,
> 
> ...


 
Xue Sheng, Sorry about that post...now that I go back and re-read it it does kind of come across as snobish...but the post was in no way aimed toward you.   Many times in a America, many a would be fly by night Sokey Dokey use many terms interchangably to name their hodge podge arts without proper foundation in the language or the culture from which they came.  When I listed the useage of the words i didn't mean that you were using them incorrectly or that you were lazy, I was refering to the many self appointed masters who didn't bother to check it out. I just posted the terms as a way to differentiate the two.   

[open mouth][insert foot] Sorry the post came across the way it did[/choking vigoursly][/close mouth].

Still, Kosho seems to be a great art and if you stear clear of the politics, alot of fun.  Hope you give it a chance. 

Regards, 
Walt


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 15, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> 1. this is incorrect......both are japanese .....they are just english phonetic representations. some people spell it with an m....some spell it with an n. which one is correct? neither.....it's spelled &#25331;&#27861;
> 
> 2. the link in my sig line goes directly to this site.......which is where, i believe, i tried to direct you. It's Bruce Juchnik Hanshi's webpage.


 
Thank you, apparently my memory does not serve me correctly, I must be getting old.

I have never seen the character for Kenpo/Kempo before. And the Chinese for that is quan fan not Kempo, I stand, or sit, as the case may be, corrected


I thank you for the link.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 15, 2006)

Walt

No problem, I may be overly sensitive, based on how this post began, and continues to edge conflict.

I feel that it is best that the administrator either close this or move it to Kempo.

Thanks


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 16, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> he never passed himself off as a catholic priest......jeez
> 
> you're just another one of the malcontents that spews off about something that they have no idea about.


 
http://www.kempojutsu.net/mitoseaikido.html

Get an idea for yourself before you spew off


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## mj-hi-yah (Jan 16, 2006)

*MOD NOTE:*

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Thank you,
MJ :asian: 
MT Moderator


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## Monadnock (Jan 16, 2006)

So wait -- Did Mitose have any valid lineage to Kosho Ryu through some distant Japanese relative or was that some scam?

I read in another post here on MT that he only studied some Okinawan art for a brief period.

On a side note, it looks as if Bruce Juchnik "*spent 2 to 3 years visiting with the incarcerated Mitose. Juchnik states that Mitose passed him all the teachings of the Old Pine Tree Style-Kosho Ryu Kempo and awarded him a master ranking asking him to keep the system alive. With this Mr. Juchnik claims Great Grandmastership of that line"*

http://www.unitedkosho.com/history.htm

So, it almost looks as if someone inherited a fraudulent lineage after 2-3 years of training through prison visits?

Can anyone point me to a valid link from Kosho ryu in Japan to here in the U.S.?

Thanks,


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 16, 2006)

Side note if anyone notice i moved this thread to the kenpo area from the general because I feel it is a better area for the threads discussion
now back to the questions and answeres


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 17, 2006)

There never was Kosho Shorei Ryu in Japan.
Supposedly, the Mitose ancestors were a Samurai clan by the name of Yushida.  But there is no record of them because they were forced to change thier name.  The family temple, where Mitose received his training, was either destroyed or just lost out in the wilderness.

It does appear that he did get some karate/kenpo training and did train in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.  Ho wmuch DZR is not really known.  Thus the Kenpo-Jujitsu name of his style.

As far as Juchnik is concerned:
Obviously, Mitose was not allowed to bring visitors to the prison and teach them secret Samurai fighting arts.  So Juchnik received verbal instruction from Mitose during his frequent visits.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 17, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> 1. *There never was Kosho Shorei Ryu in Japan.*
> *2. Supposedly, the Mitose ancestors were a Samurai clan by the name of Yushida.* But there is no record of them because they were forced to change thier name. The family temple, where Mitose received his training, was either destroyed or just lost out in the wilderness.
> 
> *3.It does appear that he did get some karate/kenpo training and did train in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. Ho wmuch DZR is not really known. *
> ...


 
1. this has not been proven or disproven
2. i dont think i have read anything by mitose where he stated himself, that his family was of samurai lineage. 
the name of the family you mention is "Yoshida"
3. no one present at that time in danzan ryu jujutsu had ever said that mitose studied danzan ryu jujutsu....more speculation.
shihan michael brown from skski would know for sure.......he did talk to sig kufferath about it.
4. this is more BS.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 17, 2006)

I think much of this has been talked about in a few other threads here if you care to due a search


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## kroh (Jan 17, 2006)

It is unfortunate that while interesting (better than a soap opera), the politics came in and confused the issue.  

Regards,
Walt


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 18, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> 1. this has not been proven or disproven
> 2. i dont think i have read anything by mitose where he stated himself, that his family was of samurai lineage.
> the name of the family you mention is "Yoshida"
> 3. no one present at that time in danzan ryu jujutsu had ever said that mitose studied danzan ryu jujutsu....more speculation.
> ...


 
1. If Mitose were in Japan at this late date, learning this art, then there would most definately be a record of it.  It is doubtful that he ever went to Japan.  And there certainly is no indication of this being a Japanese style.  The term Kenpo came into use in Okinawa after the time period that this art supposedly came into exustence in Japan.  The Japanese did not use the term Kenpo until Shorinji Kempo came about after WWII.  Kenpo-Jujitsu is just not a term used to describe martial arts in Japan.

2. Mitiose did talk about Samurai histories.  And it was just a typing error with the name.

3.  I have seen photos of Henry Okazaki with a group of students with Mitose standing in the back.  There used to be several of them on-line.
I assume that atfer his convictions the Okazaki family would want to distance themselves from Mitose and not admit he was around.  Or he was just another face in the crowd and they didn't really know who he was.  Regardless, I have seen some evidence of his training with Okazaki.

4.  There is more evidence to support this than any of the claims made by Mitose or his loyal followers.

What really blows my mind ishow,after being convicted of the murder conspiracy and all the evidents of the cons and swindles he committed, that people still fall all over themselves to defend Mitose.  Why anyone would accept his word on anything is beyond me.  Especially when there is no eveidence to support any of the claims.

But that is same kind of mindless "cult mentality" Mitose relied on to get money from his followers and get them to do his bidding.  It Terry Lee had taken some time to see the holes in the stories and not blindly follow him in this way, he would not have killed those people.

People here think the same way.  Mitose is great and his detractors are just being political.  That's kind of scary, but I guess it's ok.  Just be careful when they start to pass the koolaid around.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 18, 2006)

"3. no one present at that time in danzan ryu jujutsu had ever said that mitose studied danzan ryu jujutsu....more speculation.
shihan michael brown from skski would know for sure.......he did talk to sig kufferath about it"

By looking at his web site, he's just another one of the Mitose Clan that can best be described as a "koolaid drinker".  You will not get accurate information from someone like this when thier entire existnce is centered around worshipping Mitose and making sure everyone knows "what great man he was".


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## eyebeams (Jan 18, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> 1. If Mitose were in Japan at this late date, learning this art, then there would most definately be a record of it. It is doubtful that he ever went to Japan.



The fact that he did go to Japan is something that is now apparently confirmed with documentation. the Sanjosekenpo site apparently has relevant scans. This doesn't mean he ever learned martial arts there. There has been some effort t identify Mitose's temple as Shakainji on Mount Kinkai, but this is tenuous at best.



> And there certainly is no indication of this being a Japanese style. The term Kenpo came into use in Okinawa after the time period that this art supposedly came into exustence in Japan. The Japanese did not use the term Kenpo until Shorinji Kempo came about after WWII. Kenpo-Jujitsu is just not a term used to describe martial arts in Japan.



Untrue. Kempo is a term that appears in historical documents, including the Bugei Ryuha Daitijen. "Kenpo" is an alternate romanization that is nowadays not favoured, because (among other things) it confuses that word with a completely separate governmental usage (that *is* spelled "kenpo" when conventionally romanized).



> 2. Mitiose did talk about Samurai histories.  And it was just a typing error with the name.



True. Lots of it was derivative, but it's hard to tell whether or not it's because folktales are like that or he was nicking them from somewhere.



> 3. I have seen photos of Henry Okazaki with a group of students with Mitose standing in the back. There used to be several of them on-line.
> I assume that atfer his convictions the Okazaki family would want to distance themselves from Mitose and not admit he was around. Or he was just another face in the crowd and they didn't really know who he was. Regardless, I have seen some evidence of his training with Okazaki.



This is kind of wacky. If I founded a style there would be more photos of me casually training with martial artists outside my lineage than in it. Hawaai's martial arts community was tiny, so it is likely that everybody trained with everybody else at one time or another.

Interestingly, the Charles Lee Koshoryu lineage is still asociated with DZR Jujutsu through the AJI, so it's hardly true that there is intentional distance.



> 4.  There is more evidence to support this than any of the claims made by Mitose or his loyal followers.



There's not much evidence about anything, and in my limited research, I've come to think that lots of the conventional wisdom of both sides is wrong. For example, peoplehave aid that Mitose only taught Naihanchi, but aside from the fact that his Naihanchi was apparently unconventional, I've traced evidence of one or two other forms: One called Henshuho and, I now suspect, Hansuki (this from Karaho GM Sam Kuoha's statement here that he abandoned it to remove the remaining Japanese legacy). 

On the other hand, having reviewed a copy of What is True Self-Defence, I have to say that the book looks heavily skewed toward Mitose's desire to get out of prison and present a version of yoga. What's in there is accessible through prior sources. What Is Self Defence also has several sequences copied from earlier sources.

I honestly have no idea what James Mitose taught or where he got it from, and neither do you.



> What really blows my mind ishow,after being convicted of the murder conspiracy and all the evidents of the cons and swindles he committed, that people still fall all over themselves to defend Mitose. Why anyone would accept his word on anything is beyond me. Especially when there is no eveidence to support any of the claims.



I seriously doubt anybody is saying James Mitose was a trustworthy or nice man. But here's a secret: Lies and distortions infest virtually every martial art, esecially during the introduction of Asian arts to the West. EPAK has its oddities with Parker. The bujinkan has all kinds of strangeness in its narrative that it desperately buries in an atempt to join the Western koryu community. Karate and TKD are full of revered figures who began as "airplane masters," and Jigoro Kano founded a little thing called judo when he was in his 20s. And let's not even start with Chinese arts, many of which were the hobbies of crooks and traitors. 

What's left is a combination of historical interest and a need to learn effective techniques. These two elements should be divorced, but people don't do it. Instead, they have arguments on the internet where they use argumentative tactics that have little role in the creation of a legitimate history. Rules of logic and academic standards are not the same thing, but that doesn't excuse ignoring primary sources and informants, either.

I don't practice kenpo that has anything to do with these lineages, but it interests me all the same. But history isn't amenable to reductionist methods. Things happen in roundabout ways all the time, and the fact is we will never know much more han the fact that James Mitose was an eccentric crook who taught martial arts. That's hardly lauding him, but at least it's accurate and conservative as a statement.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 18, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> 1. If Mitose were in Japan at this late date, learning this art, then there would most definately be a record of it. It is doubtful that he ever went to Japan. And there certainly is no indication of this being a Japanese style. The term Kenpo came into use in Okinawa after the time period that this art supposedly came into exustence in Japan. The Japanese did not use the term Kenpo until Shorinji Kempo came about after WWII. Kenpo-Jujitsu is just not a term used to describe martial arts in Japan.
> 
> 2. Mitiose did talk about Samurai histories. And it was just a typing error with the name.
> 
> ...


 
produce evidence of this......and i mean more than pictures of mitose standing next to okazaki.
the fact that you made this statement shows that you have little understanding of the meaning or origin of the words.....which is typical.


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## kroh (Jan 18, 2006)

OK kenpojujitsu, So what you are saying is that Mitose is a crook, swindler, liar, cheat, and all around bad guy.  OK.  We get it.

So...does that mean those of us trying to learn Kosho Ryu should just give it up and come study under some one you do approve of?  I also practice JKD.  It is an effective form of fighting with very practical methods of tearing down an opponent.  Should I not practice this method because I think Bruce Lee was an A.D.D. riddled adrenaline junky whose movies sucked (there goes my fan club membership)?  The guy never received any ranking from his instructor (never even finished the training!) and then after a little research went and started his own style.  

I can rattle off several martial arts that claim "divine inspiration" in their lineage.  Some brother back in the day saw snow fall off of a willow tree and suddenly he is a master of fighting because now he fights like he has ten pounds of snow melting on him.  Asian martial histories are riddled with mythology.  If we looked hard enough into your lineage we could probably find a joker or two in the deck that you would rather us not see.  If we found one, would you stop your training in favor of some one reputable?

Now that you have found all this "evidence" of Mitose being a crook...Can you give us any insight into what his "followers" have done since he got snagged?  What has Kosho become versus what he tried to make it?  Is Kosho Ryu effective in its martial strategies and if so can you give proof of pro's or con's of the style?  

You seem to be a clever investigator and have obviously done some home work.  We get that he was not a nice guy... But what else have you turned up?

Regards, 
Walt


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## Monadnock (Jan 18, 2006)

How many times did Mr. Juchnik go to the prison for visits with Mitose over the 3+ years before getting Menkyo certification? Are there logs and scans of this too?

Is this short training period why Kosho claims to be an art based on principle?  Because there really wasn't enough time to go through a lot of techniques and kata? Are there other styles incorporated into Kosho for filler?

How old is the mon for Kosho ryu and who developed it?

Just a few more questions and I'm done with this mess. I don't care too much for the political stuff either but it's in every style.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 18, 2006)

Monadnock said:
			
		

> How many times did Mr. Juchnik go to the prison for visits with Mitose over the 3+ years before getting Menkyo certification? Are there logs and scans of this too?
> 
> Is this short training period why Kosho claims to be an art based on principle? Because there really wasn't enough time to go through a lot of techniques and kata? Are there other styles incorporated into Kosho for filler?
> 
> ...


 
you should really give hanshi a call. 
he would gladly give you the answers to those questions and more regarding his training.........anything coming from anyone else would be hearsay.

some people seem to think that a martial arts system based on principles is unheard of.


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## kelly keltner (Jan 18, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> 1. If Mitose were in Japan at this late date, learning this art, then there would most definately be a record of it.  It is doubtful that he ever went to Japan.  And there certainly is no indication of this being a Japanese style.  The term Kenpo came into use in Okinawa after the time period that this art supposedly came into exustence in Japan.  The Japanese did not use the term Kenpo until Shorinji Kempo came about after WWII.  Kenpo-Jujitsu is just not a term used to describe martial arts in Japan.
> 
> 2. Mitiose did talk about Samurai histories.  And it was just a typing error with the name.
> 
> ...


HMMMMmmm


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## kroh (Jan 18, 2006)

Blackcatbonz said:
			
		

> some people seem to think that a martial arts system based on principles is unheard of.



You have to consider that the average person can't learn this way.  Think back to school when you had to learn multiplication tables.  You learned those tables to exponents that really wasn't necessary but allowed the average person to see the result to a broad level.  The same goes to principle based training.  You don't need to show some one that a down bock, a low hammer strike, and the first part of the motion to a wrist torque positional lock starts from and then returns to a low blocking motion.  You can look at them and say do this motion and end in this result.  

The average person can't do this however as they need predefined techniques where technique builds upon technique.  They need those hundred or so techniques before they see the over riding principle (while some never will). This goes back to a lot of the karate-mom-n-pop dojo's that service a _fun, family atmosphere_.  The average (not anyone on these boards of course as we are all well above average) person needs that kind of structure.  

I prefer principle based training (this goes back to the *proper* teaching method used in kata training) as i find it is more challenging and therefore more rewarding.  But that's just me.  

Regards, 
Walt


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## Danjo (Jan 18, 2006)

Hey, after hearing what the training consists of in Kosho, I can now say that I firmly believe that Juchnick trained with Mitose. If all they did was sit around and have Mitose say things like, "imagine yourself on a cliff..." etc. then I have no problem with the idea that he learned that way. What value that kind of training is, however, is a different matter entirely.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 18, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Hey, after hearing what the training consists of in Kosho, I can now say that I firmly believe that Juchnick trained with Mitose. If all they did was sit around and have Mitose say things like, "imagine yourself on a cliff..." etc. then I have no problem with the idea that he learned that way. What value that kind of training is, however, is a different matter entirely.


 
i take it you have never been to a kosho class......much less, one with bruce juchnik.
dont knock it til you try it.


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## Martial Tucker (Jan 18, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> "3. no one present at that time in danzan ryu jujutsu had ever said that mitose studied danzan ryu jujutsu....more speculation.
> shihan michael brown from skski would know for sure.......he did talk to sig kufferath about it"
> 
> By looking at his web site, he's just another one of the Mitose Clan that can best be described as a "koolaid drinker". You will not get accurate information from someone like this when thier entire existnce is centered around worshipping Mitose and making sure everyone knows "what great man he was".



I participated in this thread before it got moved to the Kenpo Forum, and have been casually following it since. 

While my primary arts are TKD and HKD, I know several high ranking Kosho practitioners, and have trained with both Michael Brown and Bruce Juchnik.
All I can say was that I was extremely impressed with both men, as both martial artists and as teachers. Personally, I really don't give a flying cr*p
about what Mitose did or didn't do, or what/how Juchnik could have learned from him. It's all water under the bridge, and dwelling on it wastes valuable time that could be spent learning, training, and advancing the art in it's current form (which is both beautiful and effective). 

I chose the Korean arts as my primary styles because I personally prefer a
style that is "harder" in philosophy and execution. The Kosho style is just too "soft" for me, but I still like to occasionally train with, exchange ideas with, and learn from a good Kosho practitioner, and Shihan Brown and Hanshi Juchnik are as good as they come. To me, that's all that matters.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 18, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> Personally, I really don't give a flying cr*p
> about what Mitose did or didn't do, or what/how Juchnik could have learned from him. It's all water under the bridge, and dwelling on it wastes valuable time that could be spent learning, training, and advancing the art in it's current form (which is both beautiful and effective).


 
Yeah, many arts have shady beginnings, or shady characters, but if it has proven itself as an effective system, that is what really matters.  

Many Chinese arts are/were associated with gangsters, but we still practice them.  Many Chinese arts claim origins in the Shaolin temple, or were created by a mysterious wandering monk, or a famous war leader, but most of these claims are questionable at best.  Doesn't mean it isn't a good art.  We can knit-pick forever and never agree on who did what, or who should be trusted or believed, or who has skill, but it is all nonsense.  If the art has proven its effectiveness, that is what is really important.


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## Danjo (Jan 18, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> While my primary arts are TKD and HKD, I know several high ranking Kosho practitioners, and have trained with both Michael Brown and Bruce Juchnik.
> All I can say was that I was extremely impressed with both men, as both martial artists and as teachers.
> .


 
Juchnik didn't learn his MA skills from Mitose.


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## Martial Tucker (Jan 18, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Juchnik didn't learn his MA skills from Mitose.



I didn't say that he did for sure, and I really don't care. That was my point. I wouldn't care if Mitose was an ax murderer, and I wouldn't care if Juchnik learned his skills from Mother Theresa.

 My points:

1. Kosho is a beautiful, effective martial art.

2. Bruce Juchnik and Michael Brown are extremely good at it.

3. Both men are also excellent teachers.

All I'm saying is, these three points are all that matters NOW.
I'll say it again....This thread started out as a potential new Kosho practitioner asking for basic information about Kosho. All he got from most of
the accomplished ambassadors of Kosho on this thread was a gigantic 
p*ssing match. How does that advance Kosho as an art?

FWIW, the same thing happens often in the Korean arts, so I don't mean to imply that we Korean stylists are above such squabbles. But, as someone who likes to see more people get involved in the martial arts, I do get angry when a thread that was intended for basic info immediately turns into
a food fight over things that happened decades ago, and have no bearing on training as a martial artist today. Very impressive.....


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## Danjo (Jan 18, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> 1. Kosho is a beautiful, effective martial art.


 
A Martial art that has no techniques?


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## Monadnock (Jan 18, 2006)

I think the problem, for me at least, was when Kosho was touted as being 750 years old, but yet it should really be named Juchnik-Jutsu.

Now, I for one respect new systems as much as the old if they are fairly valid, and Mr. Juchnik's art may very well be one of those, based on those who have experienced it. But if it stands on its own two feet, why the references to non-existant lineages and men who had very little contact as teachers?

I know someone close to my area - very close - so I'll direct my questions that way and report back any enlightening info.


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## kroh (Jan 18, 2006)

Monadnock said:
			
		

> But if it stands on its own two feet, why the references to non-existant lineages and men who had very little contact as teachers?


 
That is a good point and perhaps when the truth becomes known then maybe they will change their info.  Look At Danzan Ryu.  Very effective martial art that claims who created it and when.  Another would be Jeet Kune Do.  All recent (within the last 100 years) and still valid martial arts.  



> I know someone close to my area - very close - so I'll direct my questions that way and report back any enlightening info.


 
Let us know what you find...
Regards, 
Walt


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## kroh (Jan 18, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> A Martial art that has no techniques?


 
One principle can equal many techniques.  If you know the over riding principle you do not have to be spoon fed many different techniques and hope that you memorize them all and practice them enough so they work.  Another example of a martial art taught this way is Combat Hapkido.  They teach that if you know the basic principle of a certain action then the "technique" is the principle applied in different situations.  They won't just teach you a wrist lock at a certain level and then how to apply it in different ways at each level.  They teach you the lock and then have YOU look for different places to apply it.  They say, "The lock works under these circumstances.  Go ahead and see where those circumstances occour."  The same is true of military training.  They don't say to an infantry soldier, "OK men, This is how to do a pincer movement under fire.  And this is how to do it in jungle, and this is how to do it in the snow."  They just show you the movement and it is up to you to improvise when the time comes and adapt to change.  Strict codified techniques that only work in the context of the dojo enviornment are ok for some one before they understand how *the principle that drives the technique works*.

But that is just my opinion of it and I could be wrong (which would mean that the ones who showed me that way are wrong, but that is ok, as I will have company).

Regards,
Walt


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## Danjo (Jan 18, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> The same is true of military training. They don't say to an infantry soldier, "OK men, This is how to do a pincer movement under fire. And this is how to do it in jungle, and this is how to do it in the snow." They just show you the movement and it is up to you to improvise when the time comes and adapt to change. Strict codified techniques that only work in the context of the dojo enviornment are ok for some one before they understand how *the principle that drives the technique works*.


 
The military drills it's soldiers on marksmanship. They do teach specific skills and how to apply them in various terrain. The soldiers being sent to the Middle East are trained in the Mojave Desert. They are not just given principles to follow. IMO the reason taht Kosho has devolved from the technique based instruction to the Concept based is due to the fact that Mitose was WEAK in technique and as more people became trained in the martial arts in the USA, the more obvious it became. So then he simply said, "well I teach concepts." etc. as a cop out. Concepts are a part of every martial art that I have seen. It's not unique to Kosho and it doesn't substitute for good technique training.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 18, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> So then he simply said, "well I teach concepts." etc. as a cop out. Concepts are a part of every martial art that I have seen. It's not unique to Kosho and it doesn't substitute for good technique training.


 
Interesting.  From some of the other discussions I have seen in the EPAK category, this sounds like Ed Parker.  

I don't study EPAK so I can't comment directly, but I have seen the EPAK people talk about concepts over technique (altho technique still does exist).


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## Danjo (Jan 18, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Interesting. From some of the other discussions I have seen in the EPAK category, this sounds like Ed Parker.
> 
> I don't study EPAK so I can't comment directly, but I have seen the EPAK people talk about concepts over technique (altho technique still does exist).


 
Look, a concept is always present. "One punch, one kill." is a concept. But you don't hit someone with a concept. You practice Makiwara and punching endlessly to develop this. Same with anything else. So when someone asks, "What techniques does Kosho teach?" and they get the response of , "There are no techniques only concepts." it's BS. You don't hit someone with concepts, you hit them with techniques. So what techniques does Kosho teach? How are they similar or different from other arts?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 18, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Look, a concept is always present. "One punch, one kill." is a concept. But you don't hit someone with a concept. You practice Makiwara and punching endlessly to develop this. Same with anything else. So when someone asks, "What techniques does Kosho teach?" and they get the response of , "There are no techniques only concepts." it's BS. You don't hit someone with concepts, you hit them with techniques. So what techniques does Kosho teach? How are they similar or different from other arts?


 
I think you and I are pretty much on the same page.  I agree with the need for techniques, with overlying concepts, but I am not going to comment directly about Kosho because I haven't studied it and don't want to make comments that might be way off base.  It just occured to me that the comment you made sounded like it could apply to Mr. Parker, based on what I have heard people say about him in other discussions, and the way at least some people practice his Kenpo.  Just made the observation, that's all.

Come to think of it, I am probably going to be on the receiving end of wrath and hellfire from a bunch of EPAK people for that comment, especially since I haven't studied EPAK.  It wasn't intended to be inflammatory, my apologies if it came off that way.  It was just an observation.


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## jdinca (Jan 18, 2006)

One possible way to settle this would be to contact Ray Arquilla. He's a 10th degree BB under Al Tracy. He also claims "#3 Master" under James Mitose. The reason I suggest him is because his claim is that he learned from Mitose while Mitose was a prisoner at Folsom State Prison, where GM Arquilla is/was a guard. I would expect he would know something of who his vistors were and I would also imagine that Mitose would have told him about Juchnik. Here's a link to his website, phone number is at the top.

http://www.martialartsites.com/irondragon1/index.cfm?page=8


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## kroh (Jan 18, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> The military drills it's soldiers on marksmanship. They do teach specific skills and how to apply them in various terrain. The soldiers being sent to the Middle East are trained in the Mojave Desert. They are not just given principles to follow. IMO the reason taht Kosho has devolved from the technique based instruction to the Concept based is due to the fact that Mitose was WEAK in technique and as more people became trained in the martial arts in the USA, the more obvious it became. So then he simply said, "well I teach concepts." etc. as a cop out. Concepts are a part of every martial art that I have seen. It's not unique to Kosho and it doesn't substitute for good technique training.


 
True that they do teach marksmanship. They don't teach marksmanship from trees when tanks are comming, and then specific techniques for shooting at helicopters and then for taking out a sniper in a window.  They just teach shooting.   And it is true that they also climatize.  But they don't invent a specific "technique" to deal with every situation that is out there in every climate. 

My point is that the concepts that kosho teaches apply directly to the format for how they deal with an encounter.  Some systems teach techniques only.  For example...some systems teach "Self defenses" that teach them specific counters to specific situations.  Then if the situation is varied or not directly relating to the designed encounter, a new "technique" must be created to deal with the new stimuli.  A principle based martial art starts with several basic techniques and shows the student how to apply them to different situations without having to create elaborate choreography to illustrate the point.  

My JKD training was conducted the same way.  Start by showing some one the basics.  Once they have the basics down, no "kata" or choreography per se that is set in stone.  The techniques are taught ad nauseum to a variety of stimuli.  No techniques does not mean that the student stands there and tries to harmonize with the universe.  Concept based training just implies that they teach a student the basics and how to employ those basics to any situations without the need for strict choreography.  Shorinji Kempo is famous for this by using enbu rather than kata for illustrating their principles.  

Principle based training is out there, but rare because you have to have a brain in your head.  Hock Hochheim is famous for his line, "Fighting first, systems second."  The point being learn the reason the principle works the way it does and you will then be able to come up with 10 other ways to deal with the same thing.  Systems confine the way we deal with a fight while fighting is just fighting.  The principle is true regardless of the "system specific technique."

As for Kosho's techniques, they are the same s every one else but they seem to apply them with the intention to use them.  They don't do hundreds of techniques for years and then strap on the grear and fight like a kickboxer with no other training.  

You also might have a point that Mitose's stuff was weak, but it is easy to say that after the fact.  We really don't know unless we have some one that can corroberate.  AS for the current practioners, they have had time to advance the art to its current incarnation.  If you truely doubt their fighting ability, take one of the top dogs and try to throw a beat down.  We would find out real fast what works and what doesn't.



> So when someone asks, "What techniques does Kosho teach?" and they get the response of , "There are no techniques only concepts." it's BS


 
I have only been doing kosho for two months but I can say that it has base techniques.  What it doesn't have is a bunch of predesigned choreography to illustrate every situation that might encounter.  The techniques are practiced relentlessly in a manner that would allow you to apply them anywhere without the need for a ballet (no offense to any ballerinas in the audience).

Hope that helps,
Regards, 
Walt


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 18, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> The military drills it's soldiers on marksmanship. They do teach specific skills and how to apply them in various terrain. The soldiers being sent to the Middle East are trained in the Mojave Desert. They are not just given principles to follow. IMO the reason taht Kosho has devolved from the technique based instruction to the Concept based is due to the fact that Mitose was WEAK in technique and as more people became trained in the martial arts in the USA, the more obvious it became. So then he simply said, "well I teach concepts." etc. as a cop out. Concepts are a part of every martial art that I have seen. It's not unique to Kosho and *it doesn't substitute for good technique training*.


 
this is a real beginners viewpoint that cannot see beyond a technique.
while there are many systems that teach techniques.....there are just as many that do not.
Mitose didn't want to put self defense sequences in his first book for that reason.
learning by principle is often a lot harder than learning techniques by rote......and it soon separates the conceptual learners from the purely visual "show me how" types.


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## kelly keltner (Jan 19, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> One possible way to settle this would be to contact Ray Arquilla. He's a 10th degree BB under Al Tracy. He also claims "#3 Master" under James Mitose. The reason I suggest him is because his claim is that he learned from Mitose while Mitose was a prisoner at Folsom State Prison, where GM Arquilla is/was a guard. I would expect he would know something of who his vistors were and I would also imagine that Mitose would have told him about Juchnik. Here's a link to his website, phone number is at the top.
> 
> http://www.martialartsites.com/irondragon1/index.cfm?page=8


Arquilla wasn't a guard there at the same time Mitose was a prisoner. Arquilla met Mitose through Juchnik.

kk


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## Danjo (Jan 19, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> this is a real beginners viewpoint that cannot see beyond a technique.
> while there are many systems that teach techniques.....there are just as many that do not.
> Mitose didn't want to put self defense sequences in his first book for that reason.
> learning by principle is often a lot harder than learning techniques by rote......and it soon separates the conceptual learners from the purely visual "show me how" types.


 
Well, I have a copy of Mitose's first book (the Plagiarazed one) and it is FULL of techniques and drills. It has nothing EXCEPT techniques and drills. Which systems do not teach techniques? If there are many of systems that do not, name three. I never said that I cannot see beyond techniques to the underlying principles. In fact, I said ALL martial arts have underlying concepts, but they have techniques that they teach and drill BASED on those concepts.

PS

Mitose's other book was plagiarazed also.---DW


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## kroh (Jan 19, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> In fact, I said ALL martial arts have underlying concepts, but they have techniques that they teach and drill BASED on those concepts.


 
And we are not saying that concept based training does not contain techniques, it is the approach in how those techniques are taught and deployed that is slightly different.  

So we agree on this principle training after all.  It is just that old story of the three blind guys trying to describe an elephant by touch.  Same thing, different points of perception...Knowing my luck I probably got to describe the part of the elephant under the tail....

By the way Danjo...

Love the web site link in your sig. 
Regards, 
Walt


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## jdinca (Jan 19, 2006)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Arquilla wasn't a guard there at the same time Mitose was a prisoner. Arquilla met Mitose through Juchnik.
> 
> kk


 
That's actually why I used the word "claims". I know there's dispute/confusion around this. 

I see that you're close to GM Arquilla's school. Do you train there, or know him? The top people at our school know him and he knows us, but I've never met him personally.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 19, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> this is a real beginners viewpoint that cannot see beyond a technique.
> while there are many systems that teach techniques.....there are just as many that do not.
> Mitose didn't want to put self defense sequences in his first book for that reason.
> learning by principle is often a lot harder than learning techniques by rote......and it soon separates the conceptual learners from the purely visual "show me how" types.


 
Technique is applied theory and principles in action.  Every style has principles and techniques to demonstrate and teach them

An art or style without techniques is not an art or style.  It is just a thought or idea and an unproven theory.

If one can master the art of Kosho by merely being told of the secret principles or reading about them, then it is not much of a style.  

With this idea of no techniques, you can just put up a web site explaining the principles and the whole world can become Kosho Masters in a few days.  

If you have no techniques, what do you do in class?  Just sit and talk about it?
How do you defend yuourself if you are attacked? Explain the theory of Kosho to your attacker and he just falls down?

This idea of "no techniques" is just stupidity.


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## kelly keltner (Jan 19, 2006)

Sorry there is no debate/confusion about this. The timeline and facts are that Arquilla was introduced to Mitose by Juchnik and that Arquilla became a guard later.

kell


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## kelly keltner (Jan 19, 2006)

I have to ask. What is the second book plagarised(SP) from? I am refering to Danjo's post.

kk


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## kroh (Jan 19, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> Technique is applied theory and principles in action. Every style has principles and techniques to demonstrate and teach them
> 
> An art or style without techniques is not an art or style. It is just a thought or idea and an unproven theory.
> 
> ...


 
:duel:


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## Benjp (Jan 19, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> Technique is applied theory and principles in action.
> 
> Every style has principles and techniques to demonstrate and teach them
> 
> This idea of "no techniques" is just stupidity.



I think there are two ways to interpret "technique".  One is the *application of theory and principles in action*, another is (this is the first definition I found in the online dictionary I used):

*The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished.* (ref. http://www.answers.com/technique&r=67)

Most Kenpo schools that trace the lineage through William Chow take this approach to self defense. 

Kosho Ryu teaches the concepts that make the complex task a simple one so that one does not need a systematic procedure to follow.  Thus, no need for techniques.

Regards,

Ben


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2006)

In the same spirit as the last posting, I think technique could be as simple as a punch, a hammerfist, a knifehand, a sidekick, a front snap kick, an elbow jab, a finger poke, an inward block, a rising block, an evasion step, etc.  These are the basic tools used in many martial arts, and can be used in limitless ways.

A Self Defense technique in the typical Kenpo sense is a more complex series of movements used to defend against a specific attack.  these Self Defense techniques include many of the basics listed above, put together to respond to a specific threat in a prescribed way.

Perhaps it is the Self Defense techniques that the Kosho people do not use.  The practice of the basics, and putting them together spontaneously to respond to a threat rather than relying on pre-set solutions, may be what the philosophy of the Kosho people use.  I could see this as an effective approach to training an effective system.

In Capoeira, we have many techniques and movements, but no formalized kata.  When we train, we invent sequences of movements from the individual techniques, and train them, then discard them.  then next day, we invent new sequences.  We may never train the same sequence again.  The reason we do this is to develop sponteneity in the Capoeira Roda, rather than always responding to a threat with the same answer.  If you get in a rut and always responds the same way, others will see this, predict your movement, and catch you every time.

The Capoeira Roda is not the same as a real fight, but I think perhaps the reasoning behind the approach is similar.

Any of the Kosho people want to comment?  Have I hit the target here?


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## kelly keltner (Jan 19, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> Technique is applied theory and principles in action.  Every style has principles and techniques to demonstrate and teach them
> 
> An art or style without techniques is not an art or style.  It is just a thought or idea and an unproven theory.
> 
> ...


Kenpojujistu, just curious what's your name? what art do you study? who is your teacher? How long have you been studying. There is not much info when I bring up your user profile. 

Same questions for Danjo.


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## Danjo (Jan 19, 2006)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I have to ask. What is the second book plagarised(SP) from? I am refering to Danjo's post.
> 
> kk


 
Here's the post from John Bishop on this: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=352357#post352357


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## kelly keltner (Jan 19, 2006)

There were at least three books published. The one John Bishop was talking about was entitled In Search of Kenpo. I thought you were refering to What I Is True Self Defense. There was also What is Self-Defense which is his origional book. In Search of Kenpo may have had a lot of folk tales in it that are common in Japan. So show me the exact text that it is plagarised from. Certain portions of that book might be unorigional but, plagarism is a stretch unless you show me a book that it is taken from.

kk


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## Danjo (Jan 19, 2006)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> There were at least three books published. The one John Bishop was talking about was entitled In Search of Kenpo. I thought you were refering to What I Is True Self Defense. There was also What is Self-Defense which is his origional book. In Search of Kenpo may have had a lot of folk tales in it that are common in Japan. So show me the exact text that it is plagarised from. Certain portions of that book might be unorigional but, plagarism is a stretch unless you show me a book that it is taken from.
> 
> kk


 
"unoriginal" then. When one takes the ideas or words of another and uses them as one's own, giving no attribution to the source, it's often called plagiarism. I have never, however, seen the book in question, so my only source for the book being taken from Kirosawa's film but being credited as a family story by Mitose is from John Bishop. You'll have to take my hearsay comments for what they're worth and verify this stuff with someone like Bishop who's read the book.


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## John Bishop (Jan 19, 2006)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> There were at least three books published. The one John Bishop was talking about was entitled In Search of Kenpo. I thought you were refering to What I Is True Self Defense. There was also What is Self-Defense which is his origional book. In Search of Kenpo may have had a lot of folk tales in it that are common in Japan. So show me the exact text that it is plagarised from. Certain portions of that book might be unorigional but, plagarism is a stretch unless you show me a book that it is taken from.
> 
> kk


 
I don't know if Kurosawa's movie "Seven Samurai" was taken from a book, or a written screenplay.  
For anyone who has seen the movie, they will remember the part where a bandit takes a young girl into a house/grass hut, and threatens to kill her if the villagers don't pay him a ransom.  One of the seven samurai talks his way into the house and frees the girl.  And no the samurai in the movie was not named "Kosho".  
This story is repeated in Mitose's book "In Search of Kenpo" decades after the movie came out.  And the samurai was credited as being one of Mitose's ancestors, named "Kosho". 
So what is it when you take a story and a character from a book or movie,  put the story in your book, and rename the character with your last name?  And then claim that he was your ancestor?


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## kelly keltner (Jan 19, 2006)

How old was the storyline? Did it pre date the movie? What was the source document?
How many times are plots used over and over in movies and T.V.?
How many times have you watched a movie and knew how it was going to end?
Is that plagarism?
Let's face it it may be a stretch of the imagination, but plagiarism I don't think so. It's a book of stories meant more to teach lessons than anything else. Mitose was less than a stellar individual
so he used a technique that's been used in Hollywood for years of recycling stories, come on.
By the way Danjo I have a copy of the book myself.
On another note, John how's that A&E special comming?
kk


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## kroh (Jan 19, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Any of the Kosho people want to comment? Have I hit the target here?



Right on target...
Regards, 
Walt


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## John Bishop (Jan 19, 2006)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> How old was the storyline? Did it pre date the movie? What was the source document?
> How many times are plots used over and over in movies and T.V.?
> How many times have you watched a movie and knew how it was going to end?
> Is that plagarism?
> ...


 
Like I said, I don't know if Seven Samurai came from a book, legend, or just a screenplay. I just explained the identical story being credited by Mitose in his book, to the exploits of a Mitose ancestor.  And the book does not appear to be one of fiction.  It's supposed to be stories of how Mitose's ancestors used their kenpo techniques and philosophies.  
People can make their own judgements on whether it's technically "plagarism". 

I guess it would be like you writing a book about this English nobleman who had his properties and title taken away by the Kings evil brother while the king was off on the crusades. 
And then this nobleman, who by the way was your ancestor, decided that he would ride around the forest with his merry men and rob from the rich and give to the poor. You could call him Sir Kelly of Loxley, or just Kelly Hood. Now would that fit the legal definition of "Plagarism", or would it just be sleazy. 

About the A&E documentary? You'll have to ask Jaime Abregana about his progress on it. *Abregana, Jaime* thegateway2004@yahoo.com


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> Right on target...
> Regards,
> Walt


 
Thank you for the response, Kroh.  

This opens up a whole line of thought for the kenpo lineages that derived from Mitose and Kosho.  This would include anything from William Chow and Ed Parker.

If it is true that Kosho focuses on perfection of the basics, the ability to spontaneously and creatively use the basics in any situation that arises, rather than develop a catalog of Self Defense techniques designed to answer against a specific type of attack, then this actually reinforces a suspicion that I have had for a long time.

My Kenpo training is from the Tracy lineage, which traces back thru Ed Parker, William Chow, and James Mitose.  This type of Kenpo has a huge number of self defense techniques, designed to answer against every imaginable attack.  Some of these techniques are quite useful and logical.  Others are quite useless and make little sense.  I have wondered how these were developed and why they were kept in the system, especially the less logical ones.  I think I may have found the answer in this thread.

What I am about to say is all hypothetical.  I have no proof, but it stems from my own pondering.  If anyone can verify, or dispute what I am about to state, please do so.

First, we have to assume Tracy Kenpo does in fact trace its lineage back to James Mitose Kosho Shorei Ryu.  Now if Mitose trained Chow, and Chow trained Parker, what was actually being taught?  If it really was Kosho, then it would have been principles for sponteneity and creativity, like I discussed above.  Somewhere along the line, the spontaneous "Technique of the Day" became codified into a formal Self Defense Technique.  But it was never intended for this to happen, according to original Kosho.  Who codified the techniques?  Was is Chow?  Parker?  Tracy?  I don't know, but I do know that EPAK has a lot of self defense techniques that still have a lot of similarity to Tracy kenpo.  This suggests that it would have been no later in the lineage then Parker.  So maybe Chow or Parker codified the techniques?  I don't know.  But this answers why so many Unuseful techniques found a place in the system.  Someone who learned the technique as an exploration of movement and creativity that happened to be the topic of the day misunderstood the lesson, and carved the movement into stone and made it a codified technique. Could it be possible that the entire curriculum of the EPAK and Tracy and other related kenpo lineages were the result of a misunderstanding?  Someone missed the basic lesson that was: _*none of this stuff is meant to be codified.  It is only meant to explore possible movement and possible solutions to an attack, but not meant to be kept forever in the format practiced on that particular day.*_

Wow, what an implication this is.


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## Benjp (Jan 19, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Someone missed the basic lesson that was: _*none of this stuff is meant to be codified.  It is only meant to explore possible movement and possible solutions to an attack, but not meant to be kept forever in the format practiced on that particular day.*_
> 
> Wow, what an implication this is.



Actually, Bruce Juchnik picked up on it and has been moderately successful at propagating and expanding this lesson.. 

BTW, your clarification of my post is brilliant.  Thanks for contributing 

Ben


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2006)

Benjp said:
			
		

> Actually, Bruce Juchnik picked up on it and has been moderately successful at propagating and expanding this lesson..
> 
> BTW, your clarification of my post is brilliant. Thanks for contributing
> 
> Ben


 
You are welcome!

I guess if my theory is correct about the development of the curriculum used by later lineages, we can still assume that the ultimate goal is the same: to be able to spontaneously defend against an attack.  It is just that the Kosho approach focuses on this goal from the beginning, while those with a more comprehensive curriculum have inserted this as sort of an intermediate step and expect the sponteneity to develop after a period of training.  Ultimately the curriculum would become discarded as one no longer needed to rely on it.  The problem is, as one becomes reliant on it, it becomes difficult to discard it.  It becomes something of a crutch to lean on, and while we may be able to walk well enough with the crutch, we never learn to actually run.  The curriculum can continue to be effective, but it can also ultimately narrow your vision of what is possible.  On the other hand, the curriculum can also widen your vision in the early days of training, before you have any other examples to compare with...  Tough call on which approach would be more effective.  Probably depends on the individual.  Even so, one way may have greater ultimate potential than the other, but that potential may never be truly realized by most people.  Interesting thoughts...


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## jdinca (Jan 19, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Thank you for the response, Kroh.
> 
> This opens up a whole line of thought for the kenpo lineages that derived from Mitose and Kosho. This would include anything from William Chow and Ed Parker.
> 
> ...


 
How about the followers of Mitose felt that the curriculum needed to be codified so that it could be taught to a wider range of students? Codifying techniques also brought it more in line with many traditional MA styles that had set techniques.

The key is in the use. Tracy's system has a technique for just about everything and yes, they are redundant in some cases but was the purpose of this to have a set answer to every attack? I certainly hope not. The way it was presented to me and the way I present it to my students when asked is this, a technique is a short story in which an attacker presents in a certain way and reacts in a certain way. The purpose of this is to teach you to move in the proper manner and expand your repretoire. In an actual attack, you cannot expect to think "gee, it's a right hand punch from my right side, I think I'll do Hands of Manchu". To me, it's the end result that matters. As long as it's the same, I don't see a problem with either path. 

I do like your hypothesis. Unfortunately, we may never know the correct answer.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 19, 2006)

flying crane.......you are right on with your interpretation.
danjo......you still dont understand
john bishop.........they're old japanese folk stories
kroh......right on
kelly.....amen brother


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 19, 2006)

her is something from the pages of "what is self defense? (kenpo jiu-jitsu)"

"  The waza or tricks in the following pages are but a small number of the thousands in this amazing art of Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu. After you have finished the exercises and your speed and ability in-creases, *you yourself can invent and practice them in your own way.*
    Kenpo is sense. Sense is more important than tricks so try to build up your senses"

its not about techniques......


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> How about the followers of Mitose felt that the curriculum needed to be codified so that it could be taught to a wider range of students? Codifying techniques also brought it more in line with many traditional MA styles that had set techniques.
> 
> The key is in the use. Tracy's system has a technique for just about everything and yes, they are redundant in some cases but was the purpose of this to have a set answer to every attack? I certainly hope not. The way it was presented to me and the way I present it to my students when asked is this, a technique is a short story in which an attacker presents in a certain way and reacts in a certain way. The purpose of this is to teach you to move in the proper manner and expand your repretoire. In an actual attack, you cannot expect to think "gee, it's a right hand punch from my right side, I think I'll do Hands of Manchu". To me, it's the end result that matters. As long as it's the same, I don't see a problem with either path.
> 
> I do like your hypothesis. Unfortunately, we may never know the correct answer.


 
Yes, I agree with what you are saying, the use of the codified techniques is useful and, as the Kosho guys have alluded to, it is more difficult and nebulous to master an art that has a less codified system.  I certainly can attest to that from my years training Capoeira.  And I am not trying to detract from the Tracy or EPAK or Kajukenbo or any other system or curriculum.  It is what it is, and it is still useful and logical.  I actually find the whole idea quite funny, that just perhaps what we practice as a system is the result of a historical misunderstanding or a mistake.  It is a real hoot!  On the other hand, it certainly could have been a deliberate choice made to make it easier for new students to learn.  Either way, it is still a valid approach to training.

However, this theory would also explain all the redundancy in the Tracy curriculum.  Perhaps over time, similar themes were revisited or simply came up repeatedly as the "technique of the day" to work on.  Each time it was worked on it would inevitably be somewhat different from the last, but the underlying principle and approach would be the same.  But if they got coded repeatedly as a new and separate technique, suddenly we have a curriculum with a lot of redundancy.


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## kroh (Jan 19, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Thank you for the response, Kroh.
> 
> This opens up a whole line of thought for the kenpo lineages that derived from Mitose and Kosho. This would include anything from William Chow and Ed Parker.
> 
> ...


 
:bow:


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## eyebeams (Jan 19, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> Technique is applied theory and principles in action. Every style has principles and techniques to demonstrate and teach them
> 
> An art or style without techniques is not an art or style.  It is just a thought or idea and an unproven theory.
> 
> ...



This is where the Japanese language helps. Some arts emphasize many waza (techniques), other henka (variations) of a few waza. My own lineage emphasizes henka and only formally identifies five waza.


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## eyebeams (Jan 19, 2006)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I don't know if Kurosawa's movie "Seven Samurai" was taken from a book, or a written screenplay.
> For anyone who has seen the movie, they will remember the part where a bandit takes a young girl into a house/grass hut, and threatens to kill her if the villagers don't pay him a ransom. One of the seven samurai talks his way into the house and frees the girl. And no the samurai in the movie was not named "Kosho".
> This story is repeated in Mitose's book "In Search of Kenpo" decades after the movie came out. And the samurai was credited as being one of Mitose's ancestors, named "Kosho".
> So what is it when you take a story and a character from a book or movie, put the story in your book, and rename the character with your last name? And then claim that he was your ancestor?



Honestly? Sometimes it's plaigiarism, and sometimes it's folklore. Folklore is often attributed to ancestors, worldwide, even if it did not literally happen. As for the Seven Samurai, I've herad that large parts of it are bits of folklore strung together in the narrative, such as the aiuchi contest, which I'v also heard attributed to Takuan Soho and Yagyu family traditions.


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## eyebeams (Jan 19, 2006)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> How old was the storyline? Did it pre date the movie? What was the source document?
> How many times are plots used over and over in movies and T.V.?
> How many times have you watched a movie and knew how it was going to end?
> Is that plagarism?
> ...



It's reasonable to posit deception on Mitose's part, make no mistake about that. I do not think it is the sole possible conclusion for In Search of Kempo, but it is one of the strongest possibilities by far -- just not the only one.


----------



## jdinca (Jan 19, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Yes, I agree with what you are saying, the use of the codified techniques is useful and, as the Kosho guys have alluded to, it is more difficult and nebulous to master an art that has a less codified system. I certainly can attest to that from my years training Capoeira. And I am not trying to detract from the Tracy or EPAK or Kajukenbo or any other system or curriculum. It is what it is, and it is still useful and logical. I actually find the whole idea quite funny, that just perhaps what we practice as a system is the result of a historical misunderstanding or a mistake. It is a real hoot! On the other hand, it certainly could have been a deliberate choice made to make it easier for new students to learn. Either way, it is still a valid approach to training.
> 
> However, this theory would also explain all the redundancy in the Tracy curriculum. Perhaps over time, similar themes were revisited or simply came up repeatedly as the "technique of the day" to work on. Each time it was worked on it would inevitably be somewhat different from the last, but the underlying principle and approach would be the same. But if they got coded repeatedly as a new and separate technique, suddenly we have a curriculum with a lot of redundancy.


 
Somehow, we've got to find out. It's just to fascinating an idea to just leave it hanging.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Somehow, we've got to find out. It's just to fascinating an idea to just leave it hanging.


 
Yeah, but I don't know how.  On Tracys website, they used to post a statement that he was going to tell the story of how all the techniques came into being.  This was a couple years ago or so, but the statement is no longer there, and I haven't been able to find anywhere on the site where he posted the information.  Maybe I should just send him an email and ask how they came into being.

meantime, I just imagine some student in the back of the dojo, sitting down after class and taking notes on everything that happened that day.  We would all think of this as the Good student, but perhaps in this case he was the Confused student.


----------



## jdinca (Jan 19, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I don't know how. On Tracys website, they used to post a statement that he was going to tell the story of how all the techniques came into being. This was a couple years ago or so, but the statement is no longer there, and I haven't been able to find anywhere on the site where he posted the information. Maybe I should just send him an email and ask how they came into being.
> 
> meantime, I just imagine some student in the back of the dojo, sitting down after class and taking notes on everything that happened that day. We would all think of this as the Good student, but perhaps in this case he was the Confused student.


 
GM Tracy has had some serious health problems in the last couple of years. My guess is that's why there's been no follow up.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 19, 2006)

if you read through some of the articles on the tracy website you will see where a lot of the techniques came from.....an easy person to ask would be Ted Sumner, he is a straight up guy and an 8th dan in the Tracy system.

kosho uses drills to teach and help the student understand principles. a movement drill is much different from a self defense technique.
you do not use techniques learned in a  self defense class to defend yourself....thats almost as silly as saying you use kata to defend yourself.
the purpose is to understand the underlying principles of natural movement so that one movement could be understood to apply to many different situations.


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## kelly keltner (Jan 20, 2006)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Like I said, I don't know if Seven Samurai came from a book, legend, or just a screenplay. I just explained the identical story being credited by Mitose in his book, to the exploits of a Mitose ancestor.  And the book does not appear to be one of fiction.  It's supposed to be stories of how Mitose's ancestors used their kenpo techniques and philosophies.
> People can make their own judgements on whether it's technically "plagarism".
> 
> I guess it would be like you writing a book about this English nobleman who had his properties and title taken away by the Kings evil brother while the king was off on the crusades.
> ...


Ha Ha how'd ya know about my family history.
thanks little John
HA HA
kk


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## kelly keltner (Jan 21, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Thank you for the response, Kroh.
> 
> This opens up a whole line of thought for the kenpo lineages that derived from Mitose and Kosho.  This would include anything from William Chow and Ed Parker.
> 
> ...


Excellent 

kk


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## Doc (Jan 22, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> GM Tracy has had some serious health problems in the last couple of years. My guess is that's why there's been no follow up.


Over they years since Mr. Parker's death Al has promised to tell the "real story" on a lot of different topics on various sites. He usually begins with a "teaser," then creates some controversy, and then it just fades away. He's even alluded to some of the things I speak of in SL-4, and was going to elaborate on its origin. Never happened. My favorite is how he scanned mitose's entire book onto the site and offered descriptions of the pictures that bore no relationship to what was actually there. I guess he thinks everyone is gullable. Unfortunately, many are. 

Al has had some amazing accomplisments in the arts, and holds many "firsts" in the industry. He really has no need for this kind of puffery. His true accomplishments all stand on their own, but it appears his desire to discredit and distance himself from Parker tarnishes what would be a remarkable lifetime achievement, and definitely no less than Parker.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 22, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Over they years since Mr. Parker's death Al has promised to tell the "real story" on a lot of different topics on various sites. He usually begins with a "teaser," then creates some controversy, and then it just fades away. He's even alluded to some of the things I speak of in SL-4, and was going to elaborate on its origin. Never happened. My favorite is how he scanned mitose's entire book onto the site and offered descriptions of the pictures that bore no relationship to what was actually there. I guess he thinks everyone is gullable. Unfortunately, many are.
> 
> Al has had some amazing accomplisments in the arts, and holds many "firsts" in the industry. He really has no need for this kind of puffery. His true accomplishments all stand on their own, but it appears his desire to discredit and distance himself from Parker tarnishes what would be a remarkable lifetime achievement, and definitely no less than Parker.


 
I do appreciate your comments on this.  Thank you.


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## jdinca (Jan 23, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Over they years since Mr. Parker's death Al has promised to tell the "real story" on a lot of different topics on various sites. He usually begins with a "teaser," then creates some controversy, and then it just fades away. He's even alluded to some of the things I speak of in SL-4, and was going to elaborate on its origin. Never happened. My favorite is how he scanned mitose's entire book onto the site and offered descriptions of the pictures that bore no relationship to what was actually there. I guess he thinks everyone is gullable. Unfortunately, many are.
> 
> Al has had some amazing accomplisments in the arts, and holds many "firsts" in the industry. He really has no need for this kind of puffery. His true accomplishments all stand on their own, but it appears his desire to discredit and distance himself from Parker tarnishes what would be a remarkable lifetime achievement, and definitely no less than Parker.



Well put.


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## Danjo (Jan 23, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> her is something from the pages of "what is self defense? (kenpo jiu-jitsu)"
> 
> " The waza or tricks in the following pages are but a small number of the thousands in this amazing art of Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu. After you have finished the exercises and your speed and ability in-creases, *you yourself can invent and practice them in your own way.*
> Kenpo is sense. Sense is more important than tricks so try to build up your senses"
> ...


 
Hmmmm....let's see. Techniques, i.e., kicks punches, blocks, stances are pretrty much what the art is defined by to a certaijn extent. I'm not talking about the various combinations that are demonstrated. Techniques are different from art to art. For instance: a front kick will look different and be chambered differently depending on the art. Same with a punch, block etc. The "waza" or "tricks" you refer to are merely pre-set combinations, not _techniques_. So, are the techniques taught in Kosho the same as they are in the first Mitose book? Since there is no footage extant of Mitose performing them, how are they delivered etc.? How would they differ from say Kajukenbo or Shotokan, for instance?


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 23, 2006)

ok....i think we're on the same page now, danjo.
the basics, as in techiniques, are taught just like they would be in any japanese martial art. There are a few things that would be unique to kosho....but you wouldnt get it if i explained it.....it's just something you have to see.
the application.....which some people would refer to as the techniques, are not set, as in say epak or Tracy's.
the application in kosho is based purely on principle. there are no set techniques ....no pirouettes of death, or young duck parts hen's mane.
you simply look at a situation and work a defense naturally, applying principles of natural movement.
you're not gonna get it reading it from a book......you're not gonna get it by watching a video. it is something you must learn by doing, while having someone who knows what is going on can correct you.
the stuff in mitose's book looks just like any other karate in pictures.....because you cant see the movement. it's more circular in nature. i can see it in the pictures, and i can also see how that stuff might have been made up on the spot.
as to hanshi juchnik not knowing what mitose taught because he couldnt have possibly seen it done....ok, let's say it is like that.
he did have thomas young and paul yamaguchi, 2 of mitose's original black belts, help him in understanding more of the physical art.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 24, 2006)

Okay. Thanks.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2006)

Question for the Kosho People:  Does the art include Kata of any kind?


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## Benjp (Jan 24, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Question for the Kosho People:  Does the art include Kata of any kind?



Yes, lots of kata.  Both (this list isn't comprehensive) empty hand and kobudo.

I might also be inclined to call yoga, shodo, and shiatsu kata as well.

Regards,

Ben


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2006)

Benjp said:
			
		

> Yes, lots of kata. Both (this list isn't comprehensive) empty hand and kobudo.
> 
> I might also be inclined to call yoga, shodo, and shiatsu kata as well.
> 
> ...


 
Then I would say that Kosho is really very similar to the Chinese approach to training.  We learn forms and develop fighting techniques from those forms.  But we do not have a catalog of self defense techniques that we rely on.  It is more open to the individual's interpretation.  But the root of the training is centered around forms.

It seems that the Kenpo systems that stemmed from Mr. Parker are an anomaly with regards to the quantity of Self Defense techniques.  A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do many years ago told me they had about 40 self defense techniques total, in their system.  This is much reduced compared to the Kenpo systems that can have them by the truck loads.  I guess other systems do have them but they are fewer and don't necessarily become the primary focus of training.  Interesting.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 24, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> *Then I would say that Kosho is really very similar to the Chinese approach to training*.* We learn forms and develop fighting techniques from those forms. But we do not have a catalog of self defense techniques that we rely on. It is more open to the individual's interpretation. But the root of the training is centered around forms.*
> 
> It seems that the Kenpo systems that stemmed from Mr. Parker are an anomaly with regards to the quantity of Self Defense techniques. A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do many years ago told me they had about 40 self defense techniques total, in their system. This is much reduced compared to the Kenpo systems that can have them by the truck loads. I guess other systems do have them but they are fewer and don't necessarily become the primary focus of training. Interesting.


 
this is a pretty good explanation of how we would do things in kosho.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2006)

Would you say there is something about Kosho that makes it stand out from the other arts?  If the basic approach to training is similar to many Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan systems, what about Kosho makes it different?  Are there drills, or some other approach to assimiliating the material from the kata that seems to work especially well, and that other systems don't do?


----------



## Doc (Jan 24, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> First, we have to assume Tracy Kenpo does in fact trace its lineage back to James Mitose Kosho Shorei Ryu.


That depends on what you call "lineage," or how you choose to define it.


> Now if Mitose trained Chow, and Chow trained Parker, what was actually being taught?


Your statement seems to suggest that the "knowledge" followed this "lineage progression." I think it is important to point out that by Parker's own admission, he left the heavily influenced Japanese/Okinawan perspective he learned from Chow and switched to a toatally Chinese perspective after a few short years on his own on the mainland. He gave Prof. Chow credit for his realistic concept based on technique rather than abstract kata. This means the Knowledge in the "Parker Knowledge Lineage" system begins with Ed Parker as its innovator. His influences, (good or bad) are a benchmark significance. Clearly what he did alone was unique in martial arts history, in that no one had ever done it before.


> ... but I do know that EPAK has a lot of self defense techniques that still have a lot of similarity to Tracy kenpo.


I suggests you have it backwards sir.


> This suggests that it would have been no later in the lineage then Parker.  So maybe Chow or Parker codified the techniques?


We must abandon this idea that there was this "system" that flowed down from, some say Mitose, others say Chow. With regard to Parker and Chow, Parker created his own multiple systems derived from Chinese and Samoan masters. He credits Chow for giving him his start, but not for his systems. The Tracy's came from Parker, and only orchestrated their "switch" to the Mitose lineage after they left Ed Parker.


> Could it be possible that the entire curriculum of the EPAK and Tracy and other related kenpo lineages were the result of a misunderstanding?


I can only speak for Ed Parker Sr. and the answer is emphatically "No!" Parker began a process of codification on multiple arts until he passed away far beyond anyone. Up until his passing, no one had written more.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2006)

Thanks Doc,

I am writing of course from the perspective that I have, and I am only the first to claim gaps in my knowledge.  I appreciate your input.  

I do not recall ever hearing of Mr. Parker's ties with other Chinese teachers prior to linking up here on Martialtalk, and the Samoan reference has caught me completely by surprise.  I have Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights books, and while it has been a number of years since I have read them, I don't recall any references to these teachers.  At any rate, I certainly understand that I know very little about Mr. Parker and his arts.

With regard to EPAK techniques being similar to Tracy techniques, I was again speaking from my point of reference.  I trained Tracy, so I see similarity in EPAK, but am not trying to imply one from the other.  Just making observations based on where I have been before, so to speak.

Anyway, thank you for adding to the picture in this discussion.  Your insights and knowledge and memories of Mr. Parker and his arts are appreciated.


----------



## Doc (Jan 24, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Thanks Doc,
> I am writing of course from the perspective that I have, and I am only the first to claim gaps in my knowledge.  I appreciate your input.


Of course as we all do sir.


> I do not recall ever hearing of Mr. Parker's ties with other Chinese teachers prior to linking up here on Martialtalk, and the Samoan reference has caught me completely by surprise.


The Samoan reference was to Haumea Lefiti who was a student of Ark Yuey Wong also, master of Splashing Hands, and Ed Parker's senior.


> I have Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights books, and while it has been a number of years since I have read them, I don't recall any references to these teachers.


Infinite Insights are interesting books on the concepts that should drive all arts, depending upon their perspective, but there greater interest is the historical context of Parker at the time. It is not supposed to be a timeline historical treatise on his training. Among the ancients, it is common knowledge. However, because myself and Steve LaBounty are the only "ancients" that post regularly, it would not be a normal topic of discussion. Read "Secrets of Chinese Karate." Its publication signals the switch in Parker's thinking, study, and personal lineage.


> At any rate, I certainly understand that I know very little about Mr. Parker and his arts.


Unfortunately sir, that is true of most including his own Kenpo Lineage, and its derivatives.


> With regard to EPAK techniques being similar to Tracy techniques, I was again speaking from my point of reference.  I trained Tracy, so I see similarity in EPAK, but am not trying to imply one from the other.  Just making observations based on where I have been before, so to speak.


Point well taken sir. Keeping poking.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Read "Secrets of Chinese Karate." Its publication signals the switch in Parker's thinking, study, and personal lineage.


 
Thank you, and I will see if I can track down a copy of this one.


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## Doc (Jan 24, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Thank you, and I will see if I can track down a copy of this one.


This book was published in 1963 after "Kenpo-Karate," (61) his first book. It was so good it was used as the basis for the opening episodes of the TV show "Kung fu." A major uncredited contributor to this book was Jimmy Woo, who also studied with Ark Wong and was associated with Ed Parker until they parted company. Two of Parker's first black belts went with Jimmy Woo, (Rich Montgomery, and Rick Flores) as Parker began to dabble with the idea of "commercial" aspects of the arts, while he continued to work on other more personal aspects of the arts as well.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 24, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Would you say there is something about Kosho that makes it stand out from the other arts?
> 1.If the basic approach to training is similar to many Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan systems, what about Kosho makes it different?
> 2.Are there drills, or some other approach to assimiliating the material from the kata that seems to work especially well, and that other systems don't do?


 
1. im not really sure......there are plenty of things that make it similar and other things that make it different. 
its like mantis kung fu, or white crane......they have their stylistic differences and similarities.
2. kosho has drills that are specific to kosho......i havent seen them in other systems, nor have i seen other systems approach self defense like we do........thats not to say it isnt there, i just havent seen it the same way.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> 1. im not really sure......there are plenty of things that make it similar and other things that make it different.
> its like mantis kung fu, or white crane......they have their stylistic differences and similarities.
> 2. kosho has drills that are specific to kosho......i havent seen them in other systems, nor have i seen other systems approach self defense like we do........thats not to say it isnt there, i just havent seen it the same way.


 
Fair enough.  Unless one has studied everthing out there, this can be hard to answer.


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## Kosho-Monk (Jan 25, 2006)

Wow, what a lot of posts! I think the best statement made was on page 3:

*"I am looking to learn, not fight. Fighting is easy; conversation is, apparently, hard."*

We can all learn from this. To me, this statement is Kosho and what the arts are really about. Fighting is really easy. Just read the last 9 pages and you can see why so many people get into fights. 

Just my thoughts.


With respect,
John Evans


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## Kosho-Monk (Jan 25, 2006)

I had another thought on Kosho and I'd like to share it.

A question was asked by Flying Crane if the art of Kosho had any katas in it.  It was answered by Ben when he said, yes, lot's of them.  

I do not completely agree with that answer.

In my opinion the art of Kosho doesn't have any set techniques at all.  That means no set katas either.  Yes, Hanshi Juchnik teaches a ton of katas, but pretty much all of them are taught in other martial arts as well.  He did create the 3 Mountain katas, but you certainly are not required to learn them, or any other, for rank advancement.

In Kosho the focus is more on understanding movement not memorizing movements.

Just my thoughts.


With respect,
John Evans


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2006)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> In my opinion the art of Kosho doesn't have any set techniques at all. That means no set katas either. Yes, Hanshi Juchnik teaches a ton of katas, but pretty much all of them are taught in other martial arts as well. He did create the 3 Mountain katas, but you certainly are not required to learn them, or any other, for rank advancement.
> 
> In Kosho the focus is more on understanding movement not memorizing movements.
> 
> ...


 
How would you characterize the system with regard to ranking?  Is there any kind of established, solid curriculum that is used to bestow rank, or is a more nebulous judgement regarding a student's ability to react effectively to a threat?


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## Kosho-Monk (Jan 25, 2006)

*"How would you characterize the system with regard to ranking? Is there any kind of established, solid curriculum that is used to bestow rank, or is a more nebulous judgement regarding a student's ability to react effectively to a threat?"*

First I would say that there is no Kosho Ryu Kempo "System" of Martial Arts.  The ideas of Kosho are taught by methods that are completely up to the individual teachers.  Since most (if not all, I'm not sure) Kosho Ryu teachers today (at least in Hanshi Juchnik's group) all have prior experience in other arts, I have seen many use their old system's curriculums with some changes.  (This is what I have done)

To be honest there is no set rank standard, that I can see, in the Kosho group I belong to.  Most of the black belts I have had contact with are extremely talented - but each in their own way.  But if you walked into 5 Kosho schools you will most likely find 5 different curriculums, and 5 different sets of rank promotion standards.  This makes it challenging for students wishing to transfer from one Kosho school to another.

The great thing about the way I, and others, teach Kosho is that we can show practitioners from all arts how to add in the Kosho Ryu ideas to what they are already teaching.  So for me I took my Shaolin Kempo curriculum and "Kosho-ized" it.  I have had great success with this and my students who started off in Shaolin Kempo didn't have much transition problems when I changed.  I've also been able to teach seminars at other Shaolin Kempo schools and highlight the Kosho ideas using techniques they are familiar with.

In closing I will say that the way Kosho is taught does not fit everyone's ideal way of teaching students.  However, I like the freedom (at a black belt level) to explore the ideas taught more openly.  I know some black belts in other styles that would never change a technique to make it better for them.  Their teacher would not allow it.

Just my thoughts.


With respect,
John Evans


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 25, 2006)

Hey John,
i take it you do not use any of the Kosho student handbooks.
when i first started studying kosho in 98....my teacher at the time gave everyone student handbooks that had requirements for the different belt levels that included various kata and the ability to demonstrate certain aspects of the art.
have you seen these handbooks?


----------



## Benjp (Jan 25, 2006)

Hi Mr. Evans,

Thanks for your response.  I've always wondered why the Kosho curriculum contained kata and I came up with the following conclusion.

In our dojo, there is a distinction between kata and bunkai.  At one point, I too saw kata as prescribed technique to self defense.  That was until I asked which bunkai is applicable a or b, and the answer was yes.  Then I was shown bunkai c, d, e, f, etc...  

So in my mind, Kosho kata *is* a study of motion.  Not only are the bunkai interpretations a study, but also studying one's own motion.  Do I move better when moving in low stances, or worse?  What kind of transitions make me weak and to which directions?  Which side do I favor?  Etc.

Is this why Kosho has kata?  I'm just a Kosho newbie so please feel free to correct me .

Thanks,

Ben

P.S.  It's great to be able to discuss Kosho Ryu online with the knowledge base offered here thanks to all who contribute!


----------



## Kosho-Monk (Jan 25, 2006)

Hi Shawn,

I've been a student of Kosho for about 10-11 years now and can honestly say that I have never seen one of these student manuals.  I've see (and own) the rank tapes, but I do not follow them.  Where might one obtain copies of these manuals you speak of?

However, even though there are rank tapes and manuals... would you agree there is no real standard curriculum and/or rank promotion methodology?

Thanks.


With respect, 
John Evans


----------



## Kosho-Monk (Jan 25, 2006)

Hi Ben,

Kata, in my opinion, is very important.  I agree with your thoughts on why we practice kata.  I do not believe we need to memorize 50 or 100 katas in order to understand movement.  In fact, I would argue that the more memorization one is required to do, the lower quality of integration one would have with each kata.  Kind of a jack of all trades, master of none idea.

I agree, too, that it is nice to discuss Kosho without having to talk about history.  I'm more of the present kind of guy!  I prefer to talk about concepts and other ideas that we are doing now.

Take care.


With respect,
John Evans


PS.  Please, just call me John.  With only a little over 20 years studying martial arts, I'm still a newbie, too!

PPS.  Hey, I just noticed you train with Sensei Troy Soles... is that correct?  You are in good hands.  He's an excellent teacher and a genuinely great person.  In fact, I don't think I met anyone from Oregon that wasn't nice.  Hmmm.  Perhaps there is something in the water?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2006)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> *"How would you characterize the system with regard to ranking? Is there any kind of established, solid curriculum that is used to bestow rank, or is a more nebulous judgement regarding a student's ability to react effectively to a threat?"*
> 
> First I would say that there is no Kosho Ryu Kempo "System" of Martial Arts. The ideas of Kosho are taught by methods that are completely up to the individual teachers. Since most (if not all, I'm not sure) Kosho Ryu teachers today (at least in Hanshi Juchnik's group) all have prior experience in other arts, I have seen many use their old system's curriculums with some changes. (This is what I have done)
> 
> ...


 
Gotcha.  thankyou for that answer.  I am beginning to get a picture of Kosho as an art that allows for a lot of leeway and interpretation and inclusion.


----------



## Kosho-Monk (Jan 25, 2006)

*"Gotcha. thankyou for that answer. I am beginning to get a picture of Kosho as an art that allows for a lot of leeway and interpretation and inclusion."*

There is much room for interpretation in the art of Kosho.  That's why I like it.  Hanshi Juchnik doesn't say things like, "this is the way it must be done."  I think his favorite saying would be, "go play!"


With respect,
John Evans


----------



## Danjo (Jan 25, 2006)

Is this the same stuff that's taught by Thomas Mitose?


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 25, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Is this the same stuff that's taught by Thomas Mitose?


 
i might be mistaken, and if there are any of his students on the board they can correct.
i believe his curriculum encompasses mostly the escaping arts. i read that he does a lot of drills that you would see in "what is true self defense?", and some that probably arent in there.


----------



## Kosho-Monk (Jan 26, 2006)

Honestly I don't know what Tom Mitose teaches.  I've never met him nor seen any video footage of him.


With respect,
John Evans


----------



## kelly keltner (Jan 26, 2006)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Hi Shawn,
> 
> I've been a student of Kosho for about 10-11 years now and can honestly say that I have never seen one of these student manuals.  I've see (and own) the rank tapes, but I do not follow them.  Where might one obtain copies of these manuals you speak of?
> 
> ...


Hi John 

There are student manuals.
You can get them from Hanshi.
Hope this helps.
kk


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 26, 2006)

the manuals are pretty comprehensive. 
each belt level requires kata, history (not just kempo related), terminology, display of knowledge.
it also includes requirements for learning shodo and understanding the basic concepts of shiatsu and the meridian system.


----------



## Kosho-Monk (Jan 26, 2006)

Kelly and Shawn,

Thank you for the info on the manuals.  


With respect,
John Evans


----------



## Monadnock (Jan 28, 2006)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> *"Gotcha. thankyou for that answer. I am beginning to get a picture of Kosho as an art that allows for a lot of leeway and interpretation and inclusion."*
> 
> There is much room for interpretation in the art of Kosho. That's why I like it. Hanshi Juchnik doesn't say things like, "this is the way it must be done." I think his favorite saying would be, "go play!"
> 
> ...


 
I have to agree. Excellent seminar today Mr. Evans. That was my first taste of Kosho training and I have to say, although there were many techniques shown, they were different each time while the principles remained the same.


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## dianhsuhe (Jan 28, 2006)

Wow-  Great thread... I am not a student of Kosho but am enjoying this thread---

I am also interested in the similarities or differences between what Hanshi Juchnik and GM T.B. Mitose are teaching-

I was at a tournament a few years ago and a Kosho-Ryu gentleman did a kata that was pretty "hard" and linear- Does that sound like it was from Thomas Barros Mitose's side?  He was there as was Sijo Emperado..

It was impressive...

Cheers!

James


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## Kosho-Monk (Jan 29, 2006)

*"I have to agree. Excellent seminar today Mr. Evans. That was my first taste of Kosho training and I have to say, although there were many techniques shown, they were different each time while the principles remained the same."*

Caruso Sensei,

Thanks!  If one thing showed more than anything, I hope it was my love for the martial arts and sharing what I've learned.

I was extremely pleased with the turnout.  And I must say that I was very happy you attended.  Thank you for your support.  Everyone I meet that is connected with the Aiki Kan Preservation Society turns out to be such a treasure.  All of you are true examples of what martial artists should be.


Take care,
John


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## Ken (Dec 8, 2006)

There are good things and bad things in all martial arts, no one art is perfect. We as individuals must find the art that we find most comfortable studying. As my teacher used to say "If it works, it's good karate. If some one tries to knock your brains out with a pool cue in a bar, hit him with a stool. That is good self defence and karate is self defence"


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