# What really is Ninjutsu all about?



## JackShadow (Dec 21, 2006)

I've trained in Ko-Sutemi Seiei Kan Karate all my life and next year I am going to college at Ohio State University.  This has given me the oppertunity to choose if I wish to continue my Karate training or cross-train in somethign else and broaden my knowledge of the Martial Arts.  Ninjutsu has been one art that I am interesting in learning more about.

But here's my question:  What are the X-kan styles about?  There is so much "ninja" stuff out there, it has been hard to seperate fact from fiction.  Like what does it emphasize?  Like my style favors direct strikes and kicks with a bit of grappeling.

Thank you all for your comments in advance.  I'm really glad I've found this forum so I can ask some of the stuff that has been itching at me for a while.


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## bydand (Dec 21, 2006)

This is a real good question, but one that is very difficult to answer.  The Dojo's I've gone to have covered everything; Ground fighting, hand strikes, kicking, grappeling, weapons, everything I think of when I think "martial Art".  The best way to find out is by actually going to a class or two and feeling as well as seeing what it incompasses.  Personally I have dealt only with Bujinkan schools, but hear good things about the other X-kans' as well.  Try it, bet you like it!  There has to be a school or two around Ohio State, just watch out, there is probably a few frauds around a campus that size as well.   There are members here who are better informed than I am as to what websites can point you in the right direction, so try a couple of different Schools out and you will find there is a big difference in Instructors out there.  You will find a good match if you look!  Good Luck both at OSU and your training search.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 22, 2006)

If you are interested in the Bujinkan and Soke Hatsumi's Budo Taijutsu then you can look under the yellow pages at www.winjutsu.com to find a Dojo nearest to you location.  Give them a call or email and set a date to try out a class.  First hand impressions are always good to get.  Good luck.


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## mdamignani (Dec 22, 2006)

There is a Genbukan dojo at
15208 Madison Ave.
Lakewood, OH 44107
United States
the phone # is 216-501-1667
The head instructor is Richard Ray
I don't know if this is too far away from you or not, but this is the only Genbukan dojo I could find in the state.  I hope this helps, also check out genbukan.org, as well as winjutsu.com(bujinkan) and jinenkan.com.  These are the main websites for the three X-kans.  Do a little reading and check out all the dojo's affiliated with these organizations and pick the one you feel is best for you.
Sincerly Matthew Damignani
P.S. keep us posted on your search and feel free to ask any questions that may arise.


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## JackShadow (Dec 27, 2006)

Thank you all for all the links and information, they have been very helpful.

I still am curious though, what does Ninjutsu general stress in their training?  Karate uses direct blows that are powerful and to the point while Kung-Fu uses more flowing techniques.  What does Ninjutsu follow?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 27, 2006)

"Style's smooth but rugged, you can't push or shove it, you dig it and you dug it 'cause like money you love it..."


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 27, 2006)

That is a very, very hard question as Budo Taijutsu is an incredibly broad art.  The best response I could give you is that you probably need to see and feel it in action to get better feel for what it is all about.  Good luck.


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## Don Roley (Dec 27, 2006)

JackShadow said:


> Thank you all for all the links and information, they have been very helpful.
> 
> I still am curious though, what does Ninjutsu general stress in their training?  Karate uses direct blows that are powerful and to the point while Kung-Fu uses more flowing techniques.  What does Ninjutsu follow?



As others have said, it is difficult to put into words. Here is a partial attempt and a rough stab at the matter.

Instead of a whip that destroys, the way the strikes in Taijutsu seem to work is to topple the other guy or push him back. Bruce Lee used to snap boards tied to the ceiling. He had to hit them so fast and snap back that they did not have time to move and absorb the energy. We don't do that really. Most strikes hit the guy and bend or push him so that he is off balance and his structure is off. That is when we can take advantage of it and toss him into the ground, dance on his head and run home before he gets back up.

This is why little old men who don't the ability to snap quickly anymore still manage to tie bigger, younger guys into knots during training. I have been one of the guys that were tied into knots and it really does not seem to be that the little old men that smile a lot while they cause you great pain rush their movements at all. But it takes a lot of time to get to that level.


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## bencole (Dec 28, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Most strikes hit the guy and bend or push him so that he is off balance and his structure is off.


 
I agree with Don that our striking tend not to be "snapping" but I would like to add more to his list of consequences. 

My mantra is simply, "Don't Ping. THUD!"

This is because a Bujinkan strike reverberates within the skeleton. In fact, I believe that Bujinkan striking serves to manipulate the skeleton, such that the attacker is structurally compromised (as Don suggested).

I also believe that Bujinkan striking may serve other purposes. Certainly, causing pain is one. Causing damage is another. And, yes, they are different.  Striking can also be to create distraction.

The key thing that striking does set up the striker for other attacks. That is one of the primary reasons why we leave our hands out after punching. This style of punching is roundly criticized by those in sports arts, but this is because (in my opinion) they do not understand how we generate our power and how we utilize techniques to set up subsequent techniques.

Because we are using the hips, spine, knees and footwork to strike, we don't require much "wind up" to create power. Truly skilled practitioners can knock you to the ground, starting with their hands less than 12 inches from the point of contact.

This means that our striking is effective at both close range and long range. It also makes it more difficult to anticipate (i.e., "He couldn't possibly hit me from therhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"), and thus defend. 

The Bujinkan incorporates striking with the hands and feet (as opposed to "kicking" with the feet), joint locks, muscle tearing, bone manipulation, multiple attackers, just about any weapon your D&D brain can come up with, and cool black dogi. 

There is a very good dojo down in the Dayton area run by Jeff Ochester. http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/. The facility the group has put together is simply out of sight and Jeff is extremely skilled in my opinion.

Hope that helps!

-ben


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## rutherford (Dec 28, 2006)

This is the only Bujinkan school I am aware of in Columbus, Ohio.

http://www.cobd.net/General/


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## bencole (Dec 28, 2006)

rutherford said:


> This is the only Bujinkan school I am aware of in Columbus, Ohio. http://www.cobd.net/General/


 
For the record, do you know these people and are you endorsing them?

I have always thought it was a bad idea for people to just recommend people "look on Winjutsu" and make do.

In the end, it is usually best to find people that other people know and trust. Even if that means that a little more distance needs to be covered in travel time.

Now, I'm sure these fellows are nice. Most people in the Bujinkan are....

But I also know that I have never met any of them, and so would not feel comfortable recommending them as instructors, even if they are qualified Shidoshi.

Just my two cents on the subject....

-ben


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## Bigshadow (Dec 28, 2006)

bencole said:


> I agree with Don that our striking tend not to be "snapping" but I would like to add more to his list of consequences.
> 
> My mantra is simply, "Don't Ping. THUD!"
> 
> This is because a Bujinkan strike reverberates within the skeleton.



No doubt!  My instructor has rung my bell many times as I am often uke for demonstration to the class.  

Just a funny note... Recently I was uke for my instructor and I would say he punched me but it could also be considered a push, I believe the strike landed under the chin.  This of course loosened my stuffy sinuses for the rest of the week!  Training can be quite therapeutic!  :uhyeah:


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## rutherford (Dec 29, 2006)

bencole said:


> For the record, do you know these people and are you endorsing them?


 
No, I have never knowingly met anybody from that school.  We had a very good lady in the Columbus area recently looking for Bujinkan groups, but as far as I know she didn't go in for a class and has since moved on to Arnis.

Ben, you've been of a lot of value to this thread.  Thank you.


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## KageMusha (Jan 1, 2007)

bencole said:


> There is a very good dojo down in the Dayton area run by Jeff Ochester. http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/. The facility the group has put together is simply out of sight and Jeff is extremely skilled in my opinion.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> 
> -ben




I was checking out that link, and it states that they have a groundfighting and sparring class. It says they use the Bujinkan stratigies, but what type of sparring is this, and how does it really apply to Taijutsu? I am still Kyu ranked so I don't know a whole lot about taijutsu yet, but I have 10+ years of striking based arts behind me. Just curious how they were able to meld it together or if it is just a compleatly seperate program.


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## Don Roley (Jan 1, 2007)

KageMusha said:


> I was checking out that link, and it states that they have a groundfighting and sparring class.



I found the page,

http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/groundfighting.html

That does concern me. It looks like they have taken stuff from Bujinkan, but they also have taken stuff from other arts.

In my experience, that can be very, very dangerous. Some people can pull it off, most can't. I also have a natural aversion to people that use the Bujinkan name very prominently and yet teach other stuff. The groundfighting teacher has only been training for about five years in Bujinkan and makes a big point about his results in *competition.* That type of thing does not really set my mind at ease.


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## bencole (Jan 1, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> I also have a natural aversion to people that use the Bujinkan name very prominently and yet teach other stuff. The groundfighting teacher has only been training for about five years in Bujinkan and makes a big point about his results in *competition.* That type of thing does not really set my mind at ease.



First, no one is "required" to take the ground-fighting classes. They are offered because there are some who are interested in it. 

Second, Sean Askew had a huge influence on the group during his time in the area. Sean is well-known for being one of the "competition types" in the Bujinkan, and he brought a new level of training to the group. 

Third, it's nice to see that Jeff allows Alan to "teach" one of his interests. I've taught a seminar down there, and I thought Alan had very good movement for the number of years that he has been training.

I understand where Don is coming from, but the only reason I would recommend a school is if *I PERSONALLY* thought a student would benefit from the training. 

I can honestly say that Jeff Ochester is one of the best instructors in the Midwest in the United States. And that is "Japan style Taijutsu," Don, not "Americanized Taijutsu."

I hope you have a chance to meet Jeff when he next visits Japan, Don. He's quite talented, in my personal opinion. I think your fears will be allayed if you trained with him once. 

All the best,

-ben


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## Don Roley (Jan 2, 2007)

bencole said:


> I can honestly say that Jeff Ochester is one of the best instructors in the Midwest in the United States. And that is "Japan style Taijutsu," Don, not "Americanized Taijutsu."



I have heard that name before, but I can't remember where. But I do seem to have a good reputation associated with it in my mind.

I do have my doubts, but a reccomendation by someone such as yourself goes a long way. I think that is the benefit of boards like this. Instead of just telling people to go to winjutsu.com, people can ask about certain instructors. I know of a few cases where people were advised they would be better served going to another instructor than the one they were asking about.


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## KageMusha (Jan 2, 2007)

Like I said, I come from a Karate/Kickboxing backround, and I am no stranger to compitition, so I am not against it, but the question is:  Doesn't that go against what the Bujinkan is all about?  If not, how was it done?  

Ben, I have never met you, but you did a seminair a few months ago that my instructor and several of the guys from my group went to, and the spoke very highly of you, so I am not doubting your opinion.  But reading that site seems like it is going in the direction of Steven Hayes (which I am not against at all) or maybe even more so, Robert Bussey.  I don't know much about him except that no one seems to like him or his system.  All I know about his system is (correct me if I am wrong, I am still kyu ranked in this art) that it has Bujinkan techniques, but not the mindset or tactics.

That would be my fear of the Dayton place.  Unless they found a "right" way to do it.  Like I said, I am just curious.


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## bencole (Jan 2, 2007)

KageMusha said:


> But reading that site seems like it is going in the direction of Steven Hayes (which I am not against at all) or maybe even more so, Robert Bussey.


 
Yikes! Please put those thoughts out of your head right now! 

I've given you my opinion about the skill of this particular individual. Now it is up to you to decide if how he teaches fits with your own desires. 

As with anything in the Bujinkan, the choice falls into your lap.

Good luck with your decision!

-ben


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 2, 2007)

I have heard good things about Jeff through the grapevine.


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## KageMusha (Jan 2, 2007)

Dont get me wrong.  I am not decideing on training with him.  I dont even live in the same state.  I am just curious how he teaches it so his students still get the right idea.  

I am also not saying I believe his way is right or wrong, I was just makeing a point.  Mr. Hayes tried to import new ideas to his way of doing things, it turned into ToShinDo.  I know next to nothing about ToShinDo except that most (not all) of the Bujinkan people on this forum don't agree with it.  Robert Bussey added sparring and Tae Kwon Do styled kicking to his system, and he has been borderline crucified.  

I am wondering what did they do differantly that made them and their students get the "wrong" idea about Taijutsu.  And what is the Dayton dojo doing "right"?

Notice I put right and wrong in " ".  That is my way of saying that I don't know enough about either to say they are right or wrong.  I am just basing it on the general opinion of the Bujinkan.

Also, this has kind of turned into a new subject seperate from the original question.  I am putting in a vote for an admin, starting with my first post, to make this into a new threed.  I didn't mean to change the subject.  I was honesly expecting a quick answer as to how they do it.


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## bencole (Jan 2, 2007)

KageMusha said:


> I am just curious how he teaches it so his students still get the right idea.


 
Any attempt to explain why some movement is "right" and some is "wrong" is difficult. Just visit the dojo if you are interested.



			
				KageMusha said:
			
		

> I am also not saying I believe his way is right or wrong, I was just makeing a point. Mr. Hayes tried to import new ideas to his way of doing things, it turned into ToShinDo. I know next to nothing about ToShinDo except that most (not all) of the Bujinkan people on this forum don't agree with it. Robert Bussey added sparring and Tae Kwon Do styled kicking to his system, and he has been borderline crucified.


 
Bussey just took the techniques (not the spirit of the techniques) and mixed them with his own stuff. I don't think anyone really cares anymore about Bussey, so I don't know why you think he's being "crucified." He's a long-time gone from anything in the Bujinkan, and people's dismissing his activity started as soon as it became evident that he wasn't doing anything resembling what Soke was doing back in the 1980s.

Hayes didn't just "import new ideas"; he outright lied about the origins of those ideas. He said that he learned things from Hatsumi-sensei that he got from other places. He also took "artistic license" with some facts about his own training, which came back to haunt him once people started investigating his claims.

The thread really isn't about either of these men though.

It was about a search for a dojo. I recommended a dojo.

Don thought that they might be "adding things" and you picked up on that point in making your comparison to Bussey and Hayes.

All of the "competition" stuff that Alan is teaching is based on material within the Ryuha of the Bujinkan. The "NOTE" on the page even says this: 

"*Note: *The Bujinkan's _Takagi Yoshin Ryu & Shinden Fudo Ryu_, along with other aspects of the Bujinkan Ryuha, have multiple _kata_ that start or take place at the ground level. Many of the kata in the Bujinkan focus on balance-control (_kuzushi_), with emphasis on taking balance and controlling opponents who offer different levels of force, skill, and resistance. The Dayton Bujinkan Dojo's groundfighting and sparring program uses the principles of the Bujinkan to understand proper methods of timing, distance, and angling on the ground and standing. Students who chose to participate in these classes should expect heavy aerobic workouts during class. Please speak with Alan about training in this program or contact the dojo with any questions."

Feel free to contact them if you have any questions. I've made my recommendation for someone looking for quality instruction in the Columbus/Dayton area.

-ben


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## Cryozombie (Jan 2, 2007)

KageMusha said:


> I was honesly expecting a quick answer as to how they do it.



You've been training long enough to know better. 

Now what was that about the Godai?


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## saru1968 (Jan 4, 2007)

Cryozombie said:


> Now what was that about the Godai?


 

:lol:


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## sasori00 (Jan 5, 2007)

bencole said:


> For the record, do you know these people and are you endorsing them?
> 
> In the end, it is usually best to find people that other people know and trust. -ben


 

I will vouch for the people at Central Ohio Bujinkan Dojo.  While I do not study ninjutsu with them, I have had the pleasure of training with Tim Halbakken several times.  He has trained with Dr. Hatsumi and he knows his stuff.  He is also an officer and SWAT team member with Columbus PD.  Alot of the SWAT team trains at his Dojo.  

Unfortuately I don't know anything about the other schools in the area.

Good luck in your training!!


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## Bigshadow (Jan 5, 2007)

sasori00 said:


> While I do not study ninjutsu with them, I have had the pleasure of training with Tim Halbakken several times.  He has trained with Dr. Hatsumi and he knows his stuff.



First I want to say I know nothing about the instructor...  But I believe that the new person should ask you or anyone else endorsing an instructor...  Do you seriously train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu or are you on the outside looking in?  

No offense intended to anyone, but that is what I would ask either outright or by observation before relying on an endorsement from anyone.


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