# Technique Discussion: Striking Serpents Head:Front Bearhug, Arms Free



## MJS (Jan 31, 2011)

> 1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug leaving your arms free.
> 
> 2. Step your right foot back to 6 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock, simultaneously cock your right hand at chest level as a half-fist (palm up) and execute a left inverted backfist to your attacker's left temple or jaw.
> 
> ...


 
A video clip for visual aid:

[yt]CiaqQs3YE2c[/yt]


Thoughts, comments? Does anyone do anything different? If so, what? This is what I would consider a tech. defending against a 'grappling' type attack, so as always, this discussion is open to non-Kenpoists as well.


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## Inkspill (Jan 31, 2011)

I would eat someone alive if they tried to defend against my tackle with the technique done as demonstrated in the video. even the dudes in the video have doubt, the guy in the blue gi even calls it "striking the serpent's head" you're not striking the serpent's head, your weapon is a striking serpent's head - they state this technique is not useful against people bigger than them! the blue gi guy even says "miraculously" in a sarcastic way.

he says "as the dude comes in to tackle" it's not a tackle, it's an arms free bear hug. he's trying to pick you up. he also says it's "a good way to knock your cousin back if he's drunk without having to knock his throat out", then why is the finishing strike a half knuckle to the throat?!?!  also, he pulls his head back, but doesn't anchor his elbow, and then he lifts his elbow up to strike the throat. his basics are incorrect.

also, the martial arts are supposed to be useful for everybody of any size. done this way, of course they won't stop somebody bigger. look how far they have to reach over to hit the guy's left side. the way they perform it here is impractical and illogical and not effective, especially not against a wrestler or even somebody who's played football or watched ufc even, we can't rely on the attacker having no knowledge or skill with a tackle. if he didn't know how to tackle he's not likely to use it, just like the guys in the video, they have doubt in the technique and aren't likely to use it. that tells me if someone is trying to tackle me, they have some idea and probably some confidence in their attack. someone attacking you isn't likely to use their worst attack/use an attack they have doubt in! 

he's coming in hard so we need a braced angle and a weapon to immediately injure the attacker and deflect him, might as well deflect him into the correct position to be struck by the left inverted hooking back knuckle as that's the weapon we've decided to use. if you let him come in like that, it's too late. why would we wait for the guy to grab us? look at wrestling, if they wait for the guy to get his hands on them like that they are going down most likely


here's how we do it. from a non obvious stance, slide your R foot toward 6 o clock into a left forward bow as you execute a right inward horizontal heel palm strike to his L TMJ to deflect his forward momentum toward 7 o clock.

immediately execute a left inverted hooking back knuckle strike (the striking serpent's head) to his L temple/mastoid while your R hand cocks into a half fist at your solar plexus level. 

without hesitation have your L hand grab/hook his hair/nose/chin and pull down/back (anchoring the elbow) and execute a thrusting inverted half fist to his throat.

left front crossover toward 4/5 o clock and cover out.


we direct his head into position for the left inverted hook with the right inward horizontal heel palm strike. there is also a 'hidden move' within the left inverted hook strike.


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## MJS (Feb 5, 2011)

Gee, 1 reply and 100+ views.  *shrug*  I was hoping to get more Kenpo people commenting, as well as maybe a grappler or 2.   *Calling SteveBJJ and Chris Parker* 

Anyways...Inkspill...thanks for your reply.   Never heard of doing this tech starting off with a right palm strike.  I'll have to play with that.   As for the defense...whie this isn't a typical double leg shoot, I could see someone with little or no grappling exp. attempting to clinch and try to sweep the person, such as we saw in the clip.  

I pretty much do the tech. as shown in the clip.  IMO though, I think its important to deal with the inital attack first, as Doc Chapel suggests, and then worry about the rest.  In other words, if the person is giving you a realistic attack, you're probably going to be pushed back a step or 2, thus the need to deal with that.  Of course, its highly unlikely the attacker is going to stand there, while you do this tech., so I think at some point, its important to add in the realism, ie: the attacker continuing to move you, trying to take you down, etc.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 5, 2011)

A couple of things:

I have to respectfully disagree with Inkspill. This will work against a tackle from a normal dude - not a linebacker or anything. In our school we teach it against a tackle (more likely than an arms-free front bearhug) and focus on the footwork. That first step back needs to settle your weight and give you a wide base. You can also pitch your upper body forward to get the "sprawl" effect used in wrestling and MMA.

The other thing we focus on is the head control after the ear strike. Keep your elbow close to your hip so you can keep the neck compressed as you pull it backward.  Once you break him down using the head control, you can take a microsecond to choose whether you're going to destroy his trachea or use a palm strike or nose tweak to finish the encounter.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 5, 2011)

Since when is this tech supposed to be against a tackle?
Sean


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## Thesemindz (Feb 6, 2011)

When I first learned this technique we called it &#8220;Cutting the Hugger's Throat,&#8221; but where I teach now we call it &#8220;Striking Serpent's Head.&#8221; Either way, we do it differently from how it is portrayed in the video clip.


*STRIKING SERPENT'S HEAD*
Attack: Pressing Front Bearhug (Arms Free) from 12 o'clock
Defender: Begin in Natural Stance

Attacker hits Defender Chest to Chest from 12 o'clock and presses Defender back towards 6 o'clock as arms come up and around Defender's Torso to complete Bearhug technique.


Step back with Right Foot to Left Side Horse Stance, establishing a Base and a 12-6 Strong Line against your Opponent's forward pressure, bisecting his stance across his Centerline, as you,
Execute a Left Inward Hooking Backknuckle Strike to the Base of the Opponent's Skull drawing his upper body forward while snapping his head back and exposing his face With a,
Right Palm Heel Thrust Strike to the Opponent's Face (Front of the Nose, [Opposing Force]).
Execute a Left Downward Pulling Check to Opponent's Hair (Alternative Targets: Collar, Eyebrow Ridge, Ocular Cavity), anchoring your Left Elbow and pulling Opponent's head back and away, exposing the throat, as you chamber your Right Hand (Palm Up) at your Right Hip.
In Place Pivot to a left Neutral Bow as you execute a Right Half Fist Snapping Punch to the Opponent's Throat (crushing the Trachea causing internal bleeding, difficulty with breathing, and possible choking death, [Stress and Shock]).
Return to Left Side Horse Stance as you pull down sharply on Opponent with Left Hand, drawing him away from your body and towards the floor.
Coverout to 5 o'clock.
When teaching this technique I teach the context as everything from a staggering drunk in a bar to a high standing tackle like you would see in a Sumo match. The student's practice against increasing force and resistance while focusing on establishing and maintaining a solid base and controlling the opponent with the initial shocking strikes and the follow up pull down check. We practice using that Pull Down Check to control the opponent's height and depth, as well as grafting from the Palm Strike to blocking maneuvers if the opponent should try to raise his arms to strike. You can also flow from the opponent's Centerline into a Trip or Throw by rotating the Right Hip towards 9 o'clock with a Reverse Pivot Step.

This technique has a lot of good stuff in it. I don't particularly care for the way they performed it in the video, but that's just not the way I was taught it. Maybe their version has value and teaches different important lessons. This is just the way I teach it.


-Rob


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Since when is this tech supposed to be against a tackle?
> Sean


 
I learned it as a front bearhug, arms free.  As I said in one of my posts, I suppose it could be used against a tackle.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2011)

MJS said:


> I learned it as a front bearhug, arms free.  As I said in one of my posts, I suppose it could be used against a tackle.


I've always considered SSH to be against a momentarily static situation, where you are about to be picked up, or as the beginning effort for a vertical-T Takedown. As for a tackle, not so much. 
Sean


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## K-man (Feb 6, 2011)

With the attacker's head on my right side I would probably lift his head with my right hand, thumb straight in the eye, and hit with left heel palm as his head comes up. Opportunity to use a well directed knee here too.

My first option, if I saw him coming, would be to step back 45 deg, taking him down with hands behind the head (yama uke) and striking with both foreams (heavy hands technique) to the shoulder blades.   :asian:


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 7, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I've always considered SSH to be against a momentarily static situation, where you are about to be picked up, or as the beginning effort for a vertical-T Takedown. As for a tackle, not so much.
> Sean



We teach it against what you describe, and as a response to a tackle with some slight modifications to the opening move.


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## SenseiMattKlein (Feb 7, 2011)

This technique also works against a headlock from the side. Can pull the opponents hair or two fingers under their nose to lift head and create the space for the half fist.


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## hongkongfooey (Feb 7, 2011)

As always it's a front bear hug attempt. If the tech is for a front bear hug arms free, then apply a front bear hug and squeeze the defender, make him actually break the hold.


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## MJS (Feb 7, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I've always considered SSH to be against a momentarily static situation, where you are about to be picked up, or as the beginning effort for a vertical-T Takedown. As for a tackle, not so much.
> Sean


 
So basically, for the tackles, you're using the ram techs?  Thats cool.   Like I said I think you'd see a more standard tackle coming from someone with a grappling background.  Then again, if someone with a grappling background was going to attempt a takedown, it'd probably be more along the lines of a double leg, than anything hgiher on the body.  I said tackle, with the assumption that it was an average Joe grabbing you.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2011)

MJS said:


> So basically, for the tackles, you're using the ram techs?  Thats cool.   Like I said I think you'd see a more standard tackle coming from someone with a grappling background.  Then again, if someone with a grappling background was going to attempt a takedown, it'd probably be more along the lines of a double leg, than anything hgiher on the body.  I said tackle, with the assumption that it was an average Joe grabbing you.



Experience grapplers will attack with a side takedown or vertical T. It more about tripping than a tackle though. Its a take down.
Sean


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## MJS (Feb 9, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Experience grapplers will attack with a side takedown or vertical T. It more about tripping than a tackle though. Its a take down.
> Sean


 
Yup, Royce used to clinch, move to the side, and take the guy down.  Of course, during practice, I've had people grab me in a bearhug, either from the front or rear, around the lower ribs, in an attempt to lift, throw, etc.


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 19, 2011)

There are a host of problems I see with the execution of this technique,but not with the concepts inherent in Striking Serpent's Head.The problem as I see it is in the specifics of the attack which informs the specifics of the response.In other words,we need to upgrade the quality of our training to effect a better understanding of the application of our techniques and other responses.I mean honestly...how often will we need to defend ourselves against our drunk uncle or some extra belligerent unskilled gas pump attendant? If you have to get to this rank in order to defend yourself against a HOBO,that's just SAD...

First? We have to train for this attack in scenarios where we're aware it's coming AND unaware of the impending attack.If the defender is caught unawares ("caught slippin" as we say in the hood),the attack is more likely to succeed...bear hug,tackle or not.On top of that? A dedicated attacker is likely to CONTINUE the attack and shift from tackle to bear hug to back again,oftentimes with punches and trips mixed in for good measure.If you're caught slippin,the chances of you being displaced by this attack is virtually 100%,even if the attacker is smaller and weaker than you are.Secondly,we should assume that our assailant is a mixture of linebacker and wrestler.Why? Because these are the most skilled and common archetypes of the attackers who'd use this kind of attack on the street,and their methods are mimicked by street predators (an entirely different order of attacker,usually a professional criminal and/or victimizer) so we get lotsa quality reps against the kinds of attacks that the worst of the worst criminals use too...and facing guys with this kind of skill,knowledge,mindset,and physicality will compel us to develope truly functional,confidence building methods of counterattcking using our Kenpo arsenal.Very clearly,the most prominent ("traditional") methods that are popular in Kenpo schools and on youtube frankly suck.I showed this technique as shown in the "traditional" manner to my students,and they cracked up laughing. 

Thirdly: If you get hit with a tackle or bear hug from any point in a 360 degree circle around you,you have to realize that the energy of the attacker will displace you.You won't be likely to stop his attack merely by stepping back one time with one leg.That "bracing" movement won't work on one step unless your attacker is definitely incompetent.If he/she/they come with any sort of REAL intention to tackle or hug you? You WILL be driven backwards.And they'll try to rip your legs from you or unbalance you using some football,greco or street variant/combo of upper body unbalancing to take you down or slam you into a wall or something behind you that is disadvantageous for you.I've witnessed this attack succeed marvelously because the defender was driven back and over a some chairs into a table,and again when a guy was driven backwards tripped and slammed his head on a bar at a nightclub,which stunned him enough for his opponent to just rain down punches on him and a stomp for good measure before we got to him as the security detail in the place and swept  him out of the establishment and into the arms of cops across the street from us.So you have to maintain balance,be aware of your environment,and you have to straight up know how to scramble using the techniques in this sequence--I call it the Kenpo scramble--plus use all the techniques in your current belt rank and all the previous ones to help resolve this matter.If you develope functionality in this? You have a HUGE advantage against most attackers and even many other martial artists because they are NOT familiar with the unusual angles of attacks,the weapons used,the targets hit,the tactics used and the oftentimes blazing speed of the Kenpo karateka.

Now,alot of us in Kenpo are magnificent at long expositions,but entirely lack anything approaching magnificence when it comes to real world application of our techniques against real world resistance.There are frankly too many instructors who give magnificent lectures that have the purpose of hoodwinking students into paying these Kenpo charlatans and believeing in the applicability of wakktastic technique.I am going to upload my videos on this technique to my youtube Channel soon,but I can tell you right now that in my ATACX GYM,we:

1) Have our assailant(s) attack us with escalating levels of energy (slow at first as we learn our responses) and we increase the energy of the attack as the skill of the defender increases.Never takes us more than a week of practice to go from no resistance to practically 100% power.Women oftentimes take like 10-14 days to get it but once they get it and it "clicks"? Lord ha'mercy that is your ANAL REGION from then on if you attack them.

2) Our assailant(s) attack from any point in a circle drawn around us,whether we are or aren't prepared for it.We use the old Bull In The Ring drill from football and wrestling to very quickly compel skill in this drill,and it's FUN too.

3) We try to control the opponent's head as we try to shuck off the attack and defend against being tackled tripped lifted and slammed,bit,etc.It's amazing what a good Claw to the grill can do.Same for the forearm smashes that we are also taught as traditional blocks (think Star Block Set with street vicious attitude colliding with your opponents grill and head).I've hammerfisted my way out of this attack,too.I think I still have video of me sparring live with othe martial artists and scrambling witha few Cerritos College wrestlers and pulling this technique off.If so? I'll upload it.If it got lost in the move to my current place? Ahh I'll 

4) We work on working our way up from the ground or off of the wall or whatever preppin for the relatively high event that our opponent takes us down and tries to transition to other attacks. 

5) We work on our knee strikes,elbows (Wings in Kenpo),foot trips, Kenpo stances and use them in combination with our Movement and Agility Drills to greatly facilitate in using our attacker's energy against him. THIS IS VERY HELPFUL.We push spin trip throw etc. with lightning rapidity.I have a practice set I use and teach my students--a derivative of the Stance Set designed specifically for tripping,throwing,unbalancing,rolling,scrambling on the ground and in the clinch,etc.--that I morphed into a drill that is very helpful here.Combine this with the rest off the Striking Serpent's Head and it's very doable.I mean,giving somebody thee ole Serpent's Head to the throat while they're on the ground or you've reversed them against a wall or after you've whalloped them with thee ole Alternating Maces? Very fun for you.Very NOT fun for them.

6) I repeat all of the above against armed opponents,multifights,when I have my LEO's try do weapons retention and draw a weapon under these circumstances,escape scenarios,etc. It's lotsa fun.

7) Repeating my previous point: I'll upload my videos on this in the hopes that we can see what I'm talking about and then we can dissect this further.Whatever helpful suggestions that you may have,are VERY VERY WELCOME.


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## girlbug2 (Feb 19, 2011)

Bear Hug arms free:


Base out (drop to fighting stance)

Knee or kick to groin to loosen him up

Double palm heel strike to ears ("boxing" the ears) to further loosen him up--

--followed up with those hands ending in postion so that thumbs are each placed at corners of his eyes as you grasp head firmly:

gouge eyes with thumbs, simultaneously pullling his head backward (like a pez dispenser; then push head straight down; body will lead the way as he lets go

finish with combatives if needed; run


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 19, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> Bear Hug arms free:
> 
> 
> Base out (drop to fighting stance)
> ...


Your description is missing a minor move or the bite from the serpents head, for those in the know.
Sean


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 19, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> Bear Hug arms free:
> 
> 
> Base out (drop to fighting stance)
> ...


 


Me like.Except...what if he yanks you off the ground and slams you? Idk of an attacker who will bear hug you and pose.What if he drives you backward with his tackling energy and then yanks you off the ground? That "bracing leg" suggestion may work against unskilled opposition in a relatively low percentage of situations,but it won't work against anybody who's determined to mollywhop you and who secures a bear hug on you.He'll knee you,snatch you off your feet,trip you,run you backwards and tackle you,SOMETHING.

Question: won't "basing out" lead to a scramble? Cuz your opponent will still try to drive into you and may transition to a TACKLE from the bear hug.What do you think about using the Wings (not just the elbow application,the "Wing" as "under and/or over hooks") to combat the bear hug,scramble with those knees and stuff you mentioned,and THEN do the stuff that you recommended?


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 24, 2011)

Still waiting on a reply...did people flee the thread because of my questions? Lol.


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## MJS (Feb 25, 2011)

Dont know why the threads always fizzle here, but maybe we can get them going again Ras. 

Anyways, I'll take a stab at your question.  If we take a look at Royce Gracie, we'd see him shoot in for the double leg, but sometimes, he'd be a bit higher, clinching around the waist, which to me, was similar to a bearhug.  Of course, he was moving, trying to sweep the leg, lift and throw the person, etc.  Yup, this is probably whats going to happen if someone bearhugs you.  IMO, the base, or stance, is assumed that this will be rock solid, that no matter how hard the person tries to move you, they'll be unable to.  While I understand the importance of good stances, I also understand the importance of being mobile.   So that leads me to believe that there will be movement, the defender needs to be mobile as well, in an effort to counter the potential takedown, sweep, or whatever the other guy is trying to do.

Now, the next thing that'll probably come is someone will say that you're probably not going to fight a world class grappler on the street.  My response to that is...I dont know about anyone else, but I can't predict the future.  You may get an idea that the person is skilled, depending on what they're doing, ie: taking up a particular stance, putting their hands in a particular place, and so forth.  But until you actually engage with them, you're probably not going to know the level of this person.  We dont walk around with signs saying, "Pro MMA fighter", "World class NCAA Wrestler", "Golden Gloves Boxer" LOL.


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## girlbug2 (Feb 25, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Your description is missing a minor move or the bite from the serpents head, for those in the know.
> Sean


 
Hmmm, confused...


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## girlbug2 (Feb 25, 2011)

ATACX GYM said:


> Me like.Except...what if he yanks you off the ground and slams you? Idk of an attacker who will bear hug you and pose.What if he drives you backward with his tackling energy and then yanks you off the ground? That "bracing leg" suggestion may work against unskilled opposition in a relatively low percentage of situations,but it won't work against anybody who's determined to mollywhop you and who secures a bear hug on you.He'll knee you,snatch you off your feet,trip you,run you backwards and tackle you,SOMETHING.
> 
> Question: won't "basing out" lead to a scramble? Cuz your opponent will still try to drive into you and may transition to a TACKLE from the bear hug.What do you think about using the Wings (not just the elbow application,the "Wing" as "under and/or over hooks") to combat the bear hug,scramble with those knees and stuff you mentioned,and THEN do the stuff that you recommended?


 
It's understood that the bear hug is a precursor to something else, usually the intent to pick you up. This is a best case scenario.This tech is supposed to be applied just before or just as the bear hug is being put on. It works well for a static/standing type bear hug. It would cut short any attempt by the attacker to pick you up.

Plan B. For a driving forward tackle there's something else--if you didn't see it coming and first moved out of the way, then Sprawl as soon as the arms come around. Head butt if possible. From there, whatever nasty combatives are in range. 

I confess that I'm not very advanced, only the Krav equivalent of a blue belt in EPAK. Haven't covered tackles much. I'll ask about it further in class tomorrow morning and come back with a better answer.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> Hmmm, confused...


Thats means hit the guy where it hurts, then try some fancy moves.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> It's understood that the bear hug is a precursor to something else, usually the intent to pick you up. This is a best case scenario.This tech is supposed to be applied just before or just as the bear hug is being put on. It works well for a static/standing type bear hug. It would cut short any attempt by the attacker to pick you up.
> 
> Plan B. For a driving forward tackle there's something else--if you didn't see it coming and first moved out of the way, then Sprawl as soon as the arms come around. Head butt if possible. From there, whatever nasty combatives are in range.
> 
> I confess that I'm not very advanced, only the Krav equivalent of a blue belt in EPAK. Haven't covered tackles much. I'll ask about it further in class tomorrow morning and come back with a better answer.


This is against a bear hug arms free.
Sean


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## girlbug2 (Feb 25, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Thats means hit the guy where it hurts, then try some fancy moves.
> Sean


 
I think I was too vague with "combatives". In Krav, it's almost a given you will be attacking the groin as soon as a convenient moment presents itself .


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> I think I was too vague with "combatives". In Krav, it's almost a given you will be attacking the groin as soon as a convenient moment presents itself .


Good luck with that on this one.
Sean


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 25, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> It's understood that the bear hug is a precursor to something else, usually the intent to pick you up. This is a best case scenario.This tech is supposed to be applied just before or just as the bear hug is being put on. It works well for a static/standing type bear hug. It would cut short any attempt by the attacker to pick you up.
> 
> Plan B. For a driving forward tackle there's something else--if you didn't see it coming and first moved out of the way, then Sprawl as soon as the arms come around. Head butt if possible. From there, whatever nasty combatives are in range.
> 
> I confess that I'm not very advanced, only the Krav equivalent of a blue belt in EPAK. Haven't covered tackles much. I'll ask about it further in class tomorrow morning and come back with a better answer.


 

This is a good and honest response,I thank you.I also thought that this was the case.It's my opinion that our 72 Self-Defense scenarios incorporate all of the basic scenarios that we see in SD--Standing,Clinch,Up-Down,Ground,Escape,Surprise Attack,360 degree attacks,weapons,multifights,protecting others--into each technique.We should spar rigorously with each technique in each scenario and be able to flow back and forth effortlessly.We should do this for all 72 techniques,upgrade accordingly,and share this knowledge.It's what I'm doing right now (see my youtube videos in the link in my sig) and USE THIS AS THE BASIS FOR FURTHER TRAINING.Ohter people from whatever walk of life will IMMEDIATELY see that kenpo works and we'll draw more people to us.And other kenpoists and MA's will look at what we've done and improve it further.Ad infinitum.This will be immensely helpful to kenpo.In the process,we won't start "looking like" other systems (I am not a fan of that).We'll maintain the distinct movement patterns of kenpo yet apply our techniques with real world,fluid,dynamic devastation.Addressing the static clinch is crucial.But we need to address the whole of that "clinch" scenario too as a single whole,then break it down into pieces which we spar with,and reintegrate it as a whole...and present and teach it that way.

Just my thoughts.

With respect,

THE ATACX GYM


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 25, 2011)

MJS said:


> Dont know why the threads always fizzle here, but maybe we can get them going again Ras.
> 
> Anyways, I'll take a stab at your question. If we take a look at Royce Gracie, we'd see him shoot in for the double leg, but sometimes, he'd be a bit higher, clinching around the waist, which to me, was similar to a bearhug. Of course, he was moving, trying to sweep the leg, lift and throw the person, etc. Yup, this is probably whats going to happen if someone bearhugs you. IMO, the base, or stance, is assumed that this will be rock solid, that no matter how hard the person tries to move you, they'll be unable to. While I understand the importance of good stances, I also understand the importance of being mobile.  So that leads me to believe that there will be movement, the defender needs to be mobile as well, in an effort to counter the potential takedown, sweep, or whatever the other guy is trying to do.
> 
> Now, the next thing that'll probably come is someone will say that you're probably not going to fight a world class grappler on the street. My response to that is...I dont know about anyone else, but I can't predict the future. You may get an idea that the person is skilled, depending on what they're doing, ie: taking up a particular stance, putting their hands in a particular place, and so forth. But until you actually engage with them, you're probably not going to know the level of this person. We dont walk around with signs saying, "Pro MMA fighter", "World class NCAA Wrestler", "Golden Gloves Boxer" LOL.


 
I've seen Greco wrestlers do the waist shot,I've seen catchwrestlers do it,I've seen Ungala ground fighters do it,I've seen it literally hundreds if not thousands of times on the streets.Almost NEVER was it merely a static clinch.Static clinches happened,but they're the exception...in my experience anyway.

When people tell me stuff like:"You won't run into a world class grappler on the streets in a street fight",I add to your reply.In addition to telling them that Idk WHO I may have to tangle with,I remind them that practically everyone in this nation has had experience with sports like football,horseplay wrestling,boxing (where the clinch happens alot),and some form of playful pushing.None of them will be threatening Dan Gable anytime ever,but they know enough to put you down if you let them.So I'd rather train to deal with the students of Dan Gable and Rhdi Ferguson (judo Olympian,Mundials silver medalist,rising MMA prospect),and people who have at least a college football player's knowledge of the tackle because if I can stop them? I can stop you too.And that's the majority of the people I'm likely to meet and might have some kind of encounter with.

Now I add gun work and multifights and knifework etc. to the mix just in case I'm facing or my students face or I/my students friends loved ones or just in the case of doing my regular daily thing I run into that too.The people who get shot stabbed mugged raped hit by cars and stuff like that? Betcha most of them had NO idea it was coming...and didn't train for it as result.That GUARANTEES that at some point they'd be victimized by these scenarios by someone looking to victimize them.

Better safe than sorry.Expect the unexpected.And allat jazz.


With respect,

THE ATACX GYM


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## K831 (Feb 25, 2011)

MJS said:


> Dont know why the threads always fizzle here, but maybe we can get them going again Ras.



It's much easier for me to discuss conceptual or general notions in a forum like this. Much more difficult to put technical details about movement and technique application into the written word. I think a lot of people look at some of the threads here and say "good questions/topic, not sure how to type what I want to say, or not sure I have the time to do a "technical" discussion justice. Just my guess?



MJS said:


> Anyways, I'll take a stab at your question.  If we take a look at Royce Gracie, we'd see him shoot in for the double leg, but sometimes, he'd be a bit higher, clinching around the waist, which to me, was similar to a bearhug.  Of course, he was moving, trying to sweep the leg, lift and throw the person, etc.  Yup, this is probably whats going to happen if someone bearhugs you.  IMO, the base, or stance, is assumed that this will be rock solid, that no matter how hard the person tries to move you, they'll be unable to.  While I understand the importance of good stances, I also understand the importance of being mobile.   So that leads me to believe that there will be movement, the defender needs to be mobile as well, in an effort to counter the potential takedown, sweep, or whatever the other guy is trying to do.



I really think what you are driving at is one of the "x factors" that great fighters have. That ability to adapt to a constantly changing circumstance. I have seen all too many martial artists get that look of horror when the technique they had such confidence in didn't work. That oh sh%t look. Nothing wrong with the technique, its just that the context changed too rapidly for them to execute. Many of the "defense against x-y-z" techniques we have in Kenpo require an immediate response to the initial attack to work. They are based on that immediate infliction of pain that disrupts the attack and allows for the completion of the technique. If that first 1/4 beat is missed, often times the technique goes to crap. That first disruption is harder to get against an experiences and committed attacker who is pressing the attack and not static. Just like with a defense against a bear hug or grab of any kind, get that first movement and strike off and disrupt the attackers height/depth/width so he can't pick you up or sink the grab or lock and you're good, hesitate, and you have to start adjusting and adapting, which means modify or drop the technique you originally went for. 

I think this is an interesting idea for a couple of reasons. We know that action is always faster than reaction. While most legal implications and societal norms say otherwise, if you feel an altercation is eminent, the smartest thing to do first is a preemptive strike. If someone is pressing let your damn hands go. My Kenpo instructor always says something to the effect of "in a bar fight, the first punch was when he stood up from his stool." There are many physical, mental and emotional "first moves" that happen before a punch or tackle that let you know a fight is pretty much inevitable. So many "warrior arts" have techniques based on immediate action or at the very least immediate and definitive reaction. We teach these techniques to many, but what is very rarely taught or discussed is this notion of immediate and aggressive deployment of the technique to make it work.

Kenpo is not a passive art, used with hesitation, it is much much less effective.  



MJS said:


> Now, the next thing that'll probably come is someone will say that you're probably not going to fight a world class grappler on the street.  My response to that is...I dont know about anyone else, but I can't predict the future.  You may get an idea that the person is skilled, depending on what they're doing, ie: taking up a particular stance, putting their hands in a particular place, and so forth.  But until you actually engage with them, you're probably not going to know the level of this person.



Excellent point. I think it relates to what I said above, and to what Mr. Parker used to say "he who hesitates, mediates in horizontal position."

Again, the smartest and safest approach (speaking of winning a confrontation, not a legal battle) is to assume by default that whoever you do have to tangle with IS IN FACT highly trained and capable of great violence. As such, your first and immediate response should be your most brutal and violent. 




MJS said:


> We dont walk around with signs saying, "Pro MMA fighter", "World class NCAA Wrestler", "Golden Gloves Boxer" LOL.



You know, I have never been one for free advertising by wearing crap plastered with logos. I don't like to pay extra for name brands (unless its due to genuine increase in quality and functionality) and I don't feel the need to advertise to the general public what my favorite hobbies are. It is interesting though, watching all these guys try and wear their "toughness" on their sleeve with tap out shirts, affliction shorts etc. Someone gets in my face wearing that crap, their getting chopped in the neck extra hard, just in case they are a real fighter, and not a poser!


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## K831 (Feb 25, 2011)

ATACX GYM said:


> When people tell me stuff like:"You won't run into a world class grappler on the streets in a street fight",I add to your reply.In addition to telling them that Idk WHO I may have to tangle with,I remind them that practically everyone in this nation has had experience with sports like football,horseplay wrestling,boxing



Exactly. You get a big strong guy who played HS or college football running at you with the intent of driving you into the ground, you best have your crap together. I don't consider football players fighters, but athletes in general are strong, fast, competitive, and often not afraid of getting their bell rung. People learn a reverse punch and start taking others too lightly. 




ATACX GYM said:


> because if I can stop them? I can stop you too.And that's the majority of the people I'm likely to meet and might have some kind of encounter with.



Exactly! Train to fight the toughest, meanest fighter, and you're on the right track. What did Micky say to Rock Balboa? 

"Now, for a 45 minute fight, you gotta train hard for 45,000 minutes. You listening?"


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 25, 2011)

K831 said:


> Exactly. You get a big strong guy who played HS or college football running at you with the intent of driving you into the ground, you best have your crap together. I don't consider football players fighters, but athletes in general are strong, fast, competitive, and often not afraid of getting their bell rung. People learn a reverse punch and start taking others too lightly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I always loved me some Micky from Rocky."I didn't hear no bell!' "Get up you sonuvabitch! Cuz...Micky loves ya!"


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## Yondanchris (Jul 13, 2011)

[video=youtube_share;y2pvplNt984]http://youtu.be/y2pvplNt984[/video]

^^^^^^ What Dr. Dave said! ^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## Thesemindz (Jul 14, 2011)

The other night with my intermediates we were discussing holds. We went over hand holds, arm holds, head holds, shoulder holds, body holds, and leg holds, both how to apply and use them and how to defend against them.

While doing this I demonstrated a technique I know as a "hi/low body lock." This is a hybrid style of front/rear bear hug with one arm over the opponent's shoulder and one arm under the opponent's armpit. When I was in highschool, a friend of mine who was a wrestler attacked me with this move while we were screwing around before gym class and took me down by driving in with forward pressure, bending me over my lower spine, and pressing me to the floor with him in top position.

Reading through this thread and the discussion about whether this should be a defense against a bear hug, or a tackle, and whether or not it's realistic to do this against static or dynamic attacks made me think of this particular attack. Upthread I discussed how we teach this technique first against a kind of "high charging tackle," and then evolve from there. This hi/low body lock is one type of attack which could naturally follow from the "high charging tackle." In fact, when my buddy did it to me, that's exactly the approach he used. He came at me chest to chest, slammed into my body, and his arms wrapped around me above and below my shoulder on each side. Then they came together behind my back and bent me over backwards.

Just because we practice it from an opponent basically chest bumping us from 12, doesn't mean we shouldn't go the next step and discuss _why _someone would chest bump us. The first move, which for us is a sandwiching strike between the front of the face and the base of the skull, drives the opponent's head up and back away from us while we base out to establish our strong line. The second move, which is the collar/hair grab and elbow anchor is used to arrest his forward momentum and control the opponent's position while exposing the throat as a target area. The third move, the finisher, is of course the strike to the throat. But there's a hidden fourth move which is the hair grab dragdown. Following the throat strike, if you maintain the rearward pressure on the skull you can do exactly what my buddy did to me. Bend him backwards over his lower spine and drag him down to the floor. If instead you lose the rearward pressure because the opponent reacts explosively to the throat strike by bending forward, then you can rotate the hair grab around the head to a forward position and execute a downward hair grab slam.

There are several possible attacks for this technique from the 12 o'clock angle. But if we understand the key component of establishing the Strong Line against the opponent's Weak Line, we can execute this against the attack from any direction. And if the scramble breaks out, which we try to prevent with the initial shocking strike but it still may, then we simply realign Strong Line to Weak Line, control the head, and execute the finisher. Follow with a takedown. The technique is the same, regardless of how the opponent reacts. Where the head goes the body follows. If the first strike to the face/spine doesn't stop him, we can always hit him again. And with him over our knee we can also be executing quick knee strikes to his groin or to the inside of the thighs to widen/destabilize his base.

I like this technique. In a close range grappling scenario it gives you counter hold options for both striking and grappling. I don't like the way it's performed in the initial video at the top of this thread, but that's why I don't teach it or perform it that way. We need to understand how hugs, holds, and takedowns not common to kenpo, but common to other styles like Western Wrestling, Greco-Roman, and BJJ, can be executed from this position. And that even if the attacker is a completely ignorant thug he may still attempt this style of attack. I saw plenty of drunks go chest to chest while working the door at a bar. It's primate thing. It's an attempt to establish dominance through physical posturing. They don't have to know karate to attack this way, their gorilla ancestors passed the knowledge down through their DNA.

I think the key to really understanding this technique is to realize that it's more of a grappling technique than a striking technique. We name it for the finishing move, but the head control and stance position are the parts that really matter. Once you control the opponent's Base and Centerline, you can finish him however you want.


-Rob


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## ATACX GYM (Jul 14, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> Bear Hug arms free:
> 
> 
> Base out (drop to fighting stance)
> ...



This tech seems oriented toward him facing you.How will you execute this from a lateral or rear grab?

What if the bear hug is followed immediately by a lift and slam? Can you use this very same tech as you wrote in this quote exactly or substantially this way on the ground?

What if he's armed? Will this exact tech work against an armed assailant?

What if there's more than one guy? Can you do this exact same tech as quoted vs multiple opponents?


I'm only asking because I'm curious.I mean no disrespect.My techs can be performed exactly as I show them in all of the above scenarios.


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## MJS (Jul 17, 2011)

ATACX GYM said:


> I've seen Greco wrestlers do the waist shot,I've seen catchwrestlers do it,I've seen Ungala ground fighters do it,I've seen it literally hundreds if not thousands of times on the streets.Almost NEVER was it merely a static clinch.Static clinches happened,but they're the exception...in my experience anyway.
> 
> When people tell me stuff like:"You won't run into a world class grappler on the streets in a street fight",I add to your reply.In addition to telling them that Idk WHO I may have to tangle with,I remind them that practically everyone in this nation has had experience with sports like football,horseplay wrestling,boxing (where the clinch happens alot),and some form of playful pushing.None of them will be threatening Dan Gable anytime ever,but they know enough to put you down if you let them.So I'd rather train to deal with the students of Dan Gable and Rhdi Ferguson (judo Olympian,Mundials silver medalist,rising MMA prospect),and people who have at least a college football player's knowledge of the tackle because if I can stop them? I can stop you too.And that's the majority of the people I'm likely to meet and might have some kind of encounter with.
> 
> ...



Damn, has it been this long since I've replied to this thread?  Sorry man, didn't mean to forget about ya.  

So, back to the thread....yeah, I agree with you.  This is why I like to crosstrain with grapplers.  Its one thing to say that something will work, but I want to make sure it works.  If another Kenpoist isn't giving you a realistic attack, IMO, its going to be pretty hard to know whether or not something will really work.  If I can make the technique work against a wrestler or BJJ guy, it should work against the average joe that much easier.

MMA is huge in my area, as is in yours, I'm sure.  I want to stand some sort of a chance. LOL


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## MJS (Jul 17, 2011)

K831 said:


> It's much easier for me to discuss conceptual or general notions in a forum like this. Much more difficult to put technical details about movement and technique application into the written word. I think a lot of people look at some of the threads here and say "good questions/topic, not sure how to type what I want to say, or not sure I have the time to do a "technical" discussion justice. Just my guess?



Sorry, didn't mean to neglect you either. LOL.  No, you're right.   This area has always been quiet, and many times, it is hard to come up with topics that generate alot of replies.  It is hard to type what we're thinking and hope that the person reading is understanding what we're trying to get across.  It be nice to have a huge Kenpo gathering somewhere, where we could train and share our ideas.





> I really think what you are driving at is one of the "x factors" that great fighters have. That ability to adapt to a constantly changing circumstance. I have seen all too many martial artists get that look of horror when the technique they had such confidence in didn't work. That oh sh%t look. Nothing wrong with the technique, its just that the context changed too rapidly for them to execute. Many of the "defense against x-y-z" techniques we have in Kenpo require an immediate response to the initial attack to work. They are based on that immediate infliction of pain that disrupts the attack and allows for the completion of the technique. If that first 1/4 beat is missed, often times the technique goes to crap. That first disruption is harder to get against an experiences and committed attacker who is pressing the attack and not static. Just like with a defense against a bear hug or grab of any kind, get that first movement and strike off and disrupt the attackers height/depth/width so he can't pick you up or sink the grab or lock and you're good, hesitate, and you have to start adjusting and adapting, which means modify or drop the technique you originally went for.
> 
> I think this is an interesting idea for a couple of reasons. We know that action is always faster than reaction. While most legal implications and societal norms say otherwise, if you feel an altercation is eminent, the smartest thing to do first is a preemptive strike. If someone is pressing let your damn hands go. My Kenpo instructor always says something to the effect of "in a bar fight, the first punch was when he stood up from his stool." There are many physical, mental and emotional "first moves" that happen before a punch or tackle that let you know a fight is pretty much inevitable. So many "warrior arts" have techniques based on immediate action or at the very least immediate and definitive reaction. We teach these techniques to many, but what is very rarely taught or discussed is this notion of immediate and aggressive deployment of the technique to make it work.
> 
> Kenpo is not a passive art, used with hesitation, it is much much less effective.



This is why I personally dont like to be bound by the IP techniques, or worry about grafting from one to the next.  If something goes wrong or not as we planned, just go with the flow and adapt accordingly. 





> Excellent point. I think it relates to what I said above, and to what Mr. Parker used to say "he who hesitates, mediates in horizontal position."
> 
> Again, the smartest and safest approach (speaking of winning a confrontation, not a legal battle) is to assume by default that whoever you do have to tangle with IS IN FACT highly trained and capable of great violence. As such, your first and immediate response should be your most brutal and violent.



Exactly!   I'd rather assume the worst from the get go, and tone down accordingly.  






> You know, I have never been one for free advertising by wearing crap plastered with logos. I don't like to pay extra for name brands (unless its due to genuine increase in quality and functionality) and I don't feel the need to advertise to the general public what my favorite hobbies are. It is interesting though, watching all these guys try and wear their "toughness" on their sleeve with tap out shirts, affliction shorts etc. Someone gets in my face wearing that crap, their getting chopped in the neck extra hard, just in case they are a real fighter, and not a poser!



QFT!!!


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## Inkspill (Jul 20, 2011)

I'd rather finger whip him in the eye with a small amount of force than chop him in the neck extra hard. sounds better if I might have to tell the cops "I don't know what happened, I kept telling the guy I didn't want to fight, and he went to swing at me and I put my hands up to protect myself"


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 29, 2011)

Hi folks!
I was looking at this thread and thought I'd mention a few points:
1. It's taught against a "Front Bearhug,Arms free"
2.As Mr. Parker once stated "Boxing & wrestling are the western martial arts" so, as a amateur wrestler, why would I execute a front bearhug? Especially one with arms free? Many years ago, I asked Pro Wrestler Scott Steiner to detail out his preferences on performing a "Belly to belly suplex" if you are not familiar with Scott, his suplexes were and are a joy to behold!It is our intention to stop our attacking wrestler from executing said suplex upon us. Please look at what a person must do in order to execute a front suplex and you will see how we neutralize our opponent from performing that particular maneuver.
BTW, I have a video on youtube on the Tracy version of this given technique as well as the Parker version so please check it out! It's listed as "Front Bearhug:A version". Let me know what you think!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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