# Applied Kenpo



## Rainman (May 7, 2002)

Not every one looks at AK the same way.  In fact it can have many faces.  Is it a striking system, a grappling system, weapon system or is it the ultimate chameleon of adaptability?  Do you need to go outside the art or can AK absorb everything else?

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (May 7, 2002)

I believe that kenpo has just about everything you need in it as long as you looked hard enough. I'll leave that as that. Now my personal opinion. Here goes the old saying there's always someone better. I really like that saying. We as students need to have an instructor who knows all the in's and out's of our kenpo system and can give the answers of how and why this move works or doesn't work. When I was training with my first instructor in my TKD days I met a TKD instructor through my instructor that was in the olympic trials 2 times. I trained with this gentleman for about 4-5 months. I got beat around every class and learned something each time. Just to start class we warmed up with 1100 kicks. The only kicks we did were front snap, sidekick, roundhouse, hook kick, back kick, and jump spin back kicks every so often a spinning roundhouse.  Anyway my point was I don't know how many kenpo schools do that but also I learned how to really kick well from that man. Without having that much repetition all of the time my kicks might not be as good. Now onto my second point. I have a good friend that teachees JJ. Almost every one of his students are excellent grapplers. Every so often he let's me come into his class and participate. I wrestled for 6 yrs. in school so I kind of know my way around on the mat. Well to my surprise I was able to hang with the white, yellow, and orange belts (some of them). Now I'm going to say if you think kenpo is a great art (it is) just go try out someone else's class to see just how good your skills are in that field of martial arts. I would encourage anyone to do this.  
These are just my thoughts.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## Turner (May 8, 2002)

One of the most common phrases I've heard in the Martial Arts is "You get out of it what you put into it." When you look at any art you can find what you want to find if you dig deep enough. You don't need to go outside of AK in order to find it if you are willing to dig, but sometimes it is good to go outside of the art in order to figure out what to dig for and then come back to AK and say "Oh, it was right there in front of my eyes."

As I tell my students; all I need is a punch, a kick and a little motion for my potion and I can make you any technique ever dreamed up.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 8, 2002)

In a live and evolving art anything is possible.
:asian:


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## Zoran (May 8, 2002)

I see nothing wrong with "taking" what works from other arts and incorporating it. I myself do not cross-train exactly. What I do is take what I learn from other martial artists, analyze the concept or technique logically, and may incorporate it with some modification. Now, do I want to go and sign up to another MA school? Nope, don't see a need. Do I sometimes attend seminars on other systems? Yup, even if it's just for curiousity sake. 



> Posted by Turner
> *
> You don't need to go outside of AK in order to find it if you are willing to dig, but sometimes it is good to go outside of the art in order to figure out what to dig for and then come back to AK and say "Oh, it was right there in front of my eyes."*



Great, couldn't say it better. Just wanted to add for those that do find something in another style. Discuss the concept or technique with your instructor. Don't just assume it is this great technique that you found. You may be surprised to find out that your instructor already knows the technique. He may even know how to do it better.


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## Seig (May 8, 2002)

Until I found this board and some of the gentlemen on it, the only real flaw I found with Kenpo, was a whole lot of closed minds.  When circumstances forced me 1100 miles away from my instructor, I came across Infinite Insights Vol1.  I was utterly delighted with it.  It reaffirmed everything my instructor taught me and alot of things I already believed.  It also opened my mind back up.  The one thing that bothers me to no end is that everyone insists that something be done a certain way, yet no two AK systems can agree on that certain way.  Yet, if I interpreted my readings correctly, SGM Parker said to set nothing in stone.  EPAK is the science of motion, something set in stone cannot move.  Aspects of every art can be found within every other art, some arts may specialize in one particular aspect and become outstanding at it, does that make their art better?  No, it means they studied one aspect more thoroughly than someone else did.  If one particular fighter wins every event he enters, does that mean his art is superior and every one should study it, or does it mean he is a superior fighter and found a niche within a particular system?  The other night, I was examining Raining Lances with a few of my Brown Belts,  we went through the technique several ways, and then I started applying other theories and ides to the technique and we came up with something completely different, but we remained true to the Key Moves within the technique.  Does that mean I went outside of AK to do something, or that in reality, because I questioned, modified and experimented that I stayed firmly within SGM Parker's framework?  What I guess I am getting at, is that if SGM Parker were with us, he would say work, experiment, learn, grow.  At least, since I was not priveledged enough to meet him and am translating his works, that's what i think and hope he would say.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *I see nothing wrong with "taking" what works from other arts and incorporating it. I myself do not cross-train exactly. What I do is take what I learn from other martial artists, analyze the concept or technique logically, and may incorporate it with some modification. Now, do I want to go and sign up to another MA school? Nope, don't see a need. Do I sometimes attend seminars on other systems? Yup, even if it's just for curiousity sake.
> 
> Great, couldn't say it better. Just wanted to add for those that do find something in another style. Discuss the concept or technique with your instructor. Don't just assume it is this great technique that you found. You may be surprised to find out that your instructor already knows the technique. He may even know how to do it better. *


:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (May 8, 2002)

I was up too late last night posting the previous article. What I really wanted to get to was this, Kenpo is a great thinking art with so many different ideas and concepts I do believe we have pretty much everything within the art. It's up to each individual to search and apply the material to the best of our abilities. Now if you go into another martial arts school that specializes in a specific area I see no harm in learning from that individual. You just might find better ways or more effective ways to build upon your own knowledge by applying the material learned. If you want to see how good you can kick try a TKD school. They have some different ideas and drills in the curriculum. If you think you can grapple go and jump into a JJ class somewhere. Try to use what you have learned against someone that has been drilling a grappling art for a while. That's is just another way to get better. A person might find flaws in their training that you want to get better on. Once again these are just my opinions and nothing more than that.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## tonbo (May 8, 2002)

I have seen a bunch of other "stuff", both from other styles and other Kenpo schools.  When I see things that I like, and would like to add to my own practice, I try to "kenpoize" it--I try to analyze what I have seen (or think that I have seen...hehe) and apply Kenpo principles to it.

Then I take it to my instructor and ask for his take on it.  More often than not, I am surprised, as he is able to add a few new dimensions to it.  It never fails to make me laugh, seeing what is blatantly obvious to him, and that I have missed because I don't know enough.

Good stuff, though.  

Yet another reason I love Kenpo.....it is very much an "alive" art....

Peace--


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## Rainman (May 8, 2002)

Got a good group for this thread.
:asian: 

The most frustrating thing I've encountered are people that have all the answers.  By all means expose yourself to other arts and people.  For people who practice on the ground our 3- dimensional footwork and teks using the heart of the art (cpt)have a lot of it covered.  Some examples:  "shrimping" a cross to the rear while seated or on the side etc.  Triangle choke= Hopping Crane- which is also a rolling  armbar so that you end up with your body face down.   Exact same movements you're just on the ground.   

It is the individual's choice to become strong or weak in a particular departments area.  

:asian:


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## Roland (May 8, 2002)

He tells us that in the old days, they would do a little of everything.
They would fight, grapple, apply locks, technique lines, do hundreds of punches from basic horse stances, take a stick class if some Filipino came in.
I believe he calls it Kenpo Fusion now, but before, it was just "ALL GOOD"!


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## Turner (May 9, 2002)

> For people who practice on the ground our 3- dimensional footwork and teks using the heart of the art (cpt)have a lot of it covered. Some examples: "shrimping" a cross to the rear while seated or on the side etc. Triangle choke= Hopping Crane- which is also a rolling armbar so that you end up with your body face down. Exact same movements you're just on the ground.



I whole heartedly agree. I've been seeing the exact same thing when practicing on the ground. That is what AK is all about to me... principles based on the analysis of motion. Some say that the heart of a martial art is its techniques and forms <this is a whole 'nuther topic> which I feel limits that individuals ability to grow. You can study all of the self defense techniques and forms for years upon years and never be able to apply them when you need to. However, if you understand the principles behind AK and never see a form or technique you will be able to defend yourself when the time comes. What are the techniques and forms but the principles in action? Its like the final fight scene in The Matrix; The Agents were shooting bullets, but since it was all taking place in a computer, Neo knew that it was all just 1's and 0's and could easily stop them. We aren't in a computer and a little more complex than 1's and 0's (I think) but we are still governed by God/scientific truths (which-ever you choose to focus on) and knowing those laws/principles intimately allows you to stop the attack no matter how irratic or unpredictable your assailant may be.


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## Rainman (May 9, 2002)

> You can study all of the self defense techniques and forms for years upon years and never be able to apply them when you need to. However, if you understand the principles behind AK and never see a form or technique you will be able to defend yourself when the time comes. What are the techniques and forms but the principles in action?



Very cool you have discovered the same things I have from different sources and opposite ends of the country, however a slight alteration should be injected in the above thought.  There is an exactness from the teks/forms as they relate to (CPT) that merrits study.  The manifestation from the ideas to the physical works much faster this way.    Of course just my opinion and a debatable one at that.

Who do you train under Mr. Turner?

:asian:


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## Turner (May 9, 2002)

I'm currently not training under anyone, but am in the process of getting things in order so that I can learn AK.

The grappling/kenpo connection is one that really fascinates me. 
Escaping from the mount is virtually a push block <to knee> with a downward block <to hips> followed by a crossout <snake/shrimp move.>

Moving from the guard to the mount <basic scissor legs> is basically a pivot from a horse stance facing 12 o'clock to a closed kneel facing 9 o'clock stepping throught to a horse stance facing 6 o'clock.

Picking apart techniques and analyzing them is what fascinates me about the martial arts. I hope to learn AK because it actually provides the tools to do that.


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## Rainman (May 9, 2002)

Very good especially for a young cat.  I have had conversations with guys that have 25 years in AK that argue tooth and nail against this stuff.   Try crashing wings for the full mount escape and let me know what you come up with under heat.  Haven't tried this one with my group yet but keep it verbatum you should end in his guard.  Lots of  apps for the hands let me know what you end up with.

:asian:


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## RCastillo (May 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *In a live and evolving art anything is possible.
> :asian: *



Then there is hope for me after all!:boing2:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 9, 2002)

:asian:


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## Seig (May 10, 2002)

While I have trained with it a lot, I still don't like grappling.  The first thing my instructor said to me was that the very fact I don't like it makes me better at it then I would otherwise be.  He taped on of my matched with another senior student who had studied more ground work than I had.  I beat him because when we went to the ground I went for the quick and dirty so I could get back to my feet.  Now a few years later, I understand it.  I think learning to ground fight is immensly important and do teach it.  I think that, after reading all your comments on the subject, that I will try using the standing techniques in a ground fighting scenario.


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## Turner (May 10, 2002)

I am extremely passionate about providing people with what they need in terms of self defense. The most common crime, aside from drug possession, in my community is rape. To me, that is intolerable. I love working the night shift because I can be alone to think in peace and a lot of people see me as being antisocial. Perhaps, but I have a huge soft spot for people. Hearing statistics like 1 in 3 women will be raped, primarily by someone that they know and trust both boils my blood and brings a tear to my eye. My only true skill is martial arts. For many years I've hated the fact that while I'm good at so many things, I only have the enthusiasm for the martial arts. I realize now that my passion is a great gift to be shared with the world. Both the men and the women of our communities _need_ us. In mine particular, the women need to learn how to protect themselves and be  made aware of the risks. The men need to learn the mental aspects of warriorship; Honor, Obligation and Justice.

The Kenpo/grappling combination is perfect for that... I believe in giving people what they need before giving them what they want. In my area there is a lot of sport-dedicated arts. There seem to be two sport-oriented TKD schools per block and only 5 other classes aside. 2 Karate/TKD combinations also sport oriented. 2 sport-oriented Judo classes and a BJJ class (one I am considering attending). People are getting what they want, but not what they need. In my research I've seen a lot of women's self defense courses that focus soley on stand-up... that is just plain stupid in my humble onion. 1-in-3 women will be raped by someone they know. Its not going to be some brute jumping out of the bushes (though it does happen here), its going to be someone that the woman trusts and is intimate with and things go too far. She's got to learn how to escape after being pinned down. TKD, Karate and even those Kenpo guys who refuse to teach how things are associated together aren't going to be much of a help. They are shirking their responsibility as self-defense instructors if they ignore the ground. You give a kid his dinner before you give him ice cream. You pay your bills before you go buy the new set of clothes. You give a person what they need before you give them what they want. If you do otherwise you are being irresponsible and responsibility is part of being honorable in my book.

But that's just me... what do I know?


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## Seig (May 10, 2002)

I did it.  Tonight I introduced the concept of using the standup techniques and principals in a ground fighting scenario.  It was a fascinating exercise.  Even though I was the one guiding everything, I think I learned as much tonight as my students did.  They were absolutely delighted with it.  I think that has just become a regularpart of my curricuulum.


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## Rainman (May 10, 2002)

Good I am glad you liked it.

:asian:


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## Kalicombat (May 11, 2002)

In my opinion, and not too sound cliche, all martial arts have some merit. That being said, kenpo in particular, has everything I will ever need to defend myself successfully against a violent attack. To take what works from other systems and apply it to your kenpo realistically would take a life time of research. First you would have to know, and understand the entire EPAK system, then know and understand what ever other system you are researching. I dont think a person coudl actually make a sound judgement on what to throw out of any system without knowing that system completely. To be able to disregard the grappling qualities of kenpo, or weapons, etc, you HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEM TO YOUR FULL POTENTIAL.

   Personally, the time I have wasted looking for those things in other systems has seriously detracted from my ultimate goal of    absorbing all that EPAK has to offer. Much like a relationship, you can not tell how it will be in 20 years after the first date. Give American Kenpo the chance to give you what you need. It is imperative to learn the entire system, and then work on understanding the system before you jump ship and start searching for the ultimate techniques elsewhere. 

     At the recent IKKO camp, I saw a display of kicking from kenpoists that would rival any TKD'er, regardless of rank, that I have ever witnessed. The power, speed, and accuracy was developed through hard work, repetition, and the proper mechanics of kicking. I have been to two junior olympics as a coach for my son. God forbid he ever get caught with a front kick as powerful as some I saw at that camp, all by non TKD'ers.

   As far as grappling is concerned, it is very much over rated as a self defense mechanism. I have been in alot of altercations through out my existance, and to go to the ground on purpose is in no way a logical choice. Your options are limited, your environment is not as comfortable as a mat in class, and your power and weapons are greatly diminished. Plus, you are a lying heavy bag if your opponent has any buddies standing around taking in the sight. THe grappling craze of BJJ has been marketed well through the UFC and other NHB events, but the one thing to take into consideration is that while these events may be a great test of ones skills, they do not represent a realistic street self defense scenario. To borrow from the EPAK yellow belt sayings;
"Whatever the intent, so the response". NHB events do not have the intent on ending ones life, only to win a match, or tournament. Most of the techniques that I have learned on the ground have been UFC type techniques ie; triangle choke, riding the bull, the guard, mount, etc., all sport based material. In my opinion and experience, if I end up on the ground, I have already made a grave mistake in allowing my opponent to get me there. I choose to stand and take care of business. 

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman


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## Seig (May 11, 2002)

Gary, I agree with 95% of what you say.  Unfortunately. I disagree with about 5%.  I personally despise ground fighting and thought much the same way you do.  If I am on the ground, I screwed up.  This is not always the case.  For example, half of my students are women.  The most common crime against women is rape,  I have not heard of many cases of a woman being raped while standing up and facing her attacker.  Unfortunately, most real world scenarios end up on the ground.  If you are not prepared to deal with it, you're dead/raped. No, Sport JJ may not be realistic for defending yourself, but what Sport is?  Now, we do not have pads on my dojo floor, I can't afford them.  So all of our falling/grappling is done on carpet covered concrete.  The Kenpo techniques work wonderfully on the ground and I have now incorporated it into the Samurai Jiu-Jitsu part of my curriculluum.  As I said, I, too, prefer to "Stand and Deliver".


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## Turner (May 11, 2002)

I believe in preparing for what you think that you will be most likely to face and then prepare for what you utterly don't expect to face. I focus on fighting while standing up and go to the ground on occassion, just in case. I don't expect to have some guy try to wrestle me to the ground. I expect to have him punch at me or stick a knife in me or be attacked by a group... because that is the common ways that men are attacked in my neighborhood. However, as someone who intends to be an instructor (full time) sometime in my life, my responsibility is to offer what my students need. By teaching them self defense, I am implying that I will be providing them with knowledge to protect themselves from harm. Because rape is so common in this area, I am obligated to provide the counter attack. (I actually hate the word defense. It implies that you are a victim and I never want anyone to be in that mindset. You are only a victim if you think you are. Instead, I think that if someone attacks you, they are deserving prey. Depending on the circumstances. Those that work with mentally sick people of course shouldn't unleash the tiger.)


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## Rainman (May 11, 2002)

> I believe in preparing for what you think that you will be most likely to face and then prepare for what you utterly don't expect to face. I focus on fighting while standing up and go to the ground on occassion, just in case.



exactly.



> The Kenpo techniques work wonderfully on the ground and I have now incorporated it into the Samurai Jiu-Jitsu part of my curriculluum



exactly



> Most of the techniques that I have learned on the ground have been UFC type techniques ie; triangle choke, riding the bull, the guard, mount, etc., all sport based material.



The discussion was KENPO groundwork and using typical grappling parallels to help describe it.    This was important so that everyone involved in the thread could get an understanding quickly and easily.   Seemed to me to work very well, Mr. Turner already has asom (analytical study of motion) he just needs his KENPO guide.  Mr. Seig  had success with it and and it just came about from sharing ideas.  I learned from this thread as well and would call it very successful.

JMO
:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 12, 2002)

If you study your "Kenpo Tools".......... you will find answers that you didn't realize were there.  

As an example..... someone mentioned a Triangle Choke Technique of UFC, well doesn't that possibly come somewhere near The Kenpo term "open ended triangle" and could be used in this case to "choke" as "one" definition of the term?

What do you think.......? or am I off base....

:asian:


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## KenpoTess (May 13, 2002)

When Seig mentioned he was going to try the Applied Kenpo in class the other night.. I thought about some issues that are indeed paramount to reality attacks.  I tend to look outside the dojo in view of 'what if this happens'  Most of our students are college kids and the females are pretty good kickers but only a couple would have any 'attitude' on the ground, where, if attacked 99% would be (on their backs)   Now from what I could see and experience from the class.  The attacker was in the 'mount' position..and after utilizing  Mace of Agression with a few other tecs added and modified,  they worked nicely. When Seig came over to me as I was on the ground .. he mentioned that Men would not be in the typical Jiu-jitsu mount postion .. so to modify that stance accordingly.  since we were working same sex partner it was rather akward but it was a reality check and we could see what was expected as far as defense against a rape.   
I, as an instructor try to bring reality into my teaching.  Women when provoked tend to bite, scratch, pull hair.. if these young women in college get into a confrontation.. how to defend against 'cat fights'   We have some issues with a few of the girls as far as their ground work,  the vulnerability of being on your back and putting someone into a choke, leg or arm bar.. I think this Applied Kenpo will give them an advantage combined with the Jiu-jitsu.. Thanks for bringing it to light ~!

Tess


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## Seig (May 13, 2002)

*it was rather akward * 
Like I always say, better akward in the dojo than a victim in the street.


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## Rainman (May 14, 2002)

> As an example..... someone mentioned a Triangle Choke Technique of UFC, well doesn't that possibly come somewhere near The Kenpo term "open ended triangle" and could be used in this case to "choke" as "one" definition of the term



Are you off base.  In the particular movements that this was relating to yes.   Is there a place for what you are thinking? Yes and no.  Once the fourth range becomes predominent elements of the commercial vehicle leave.   They have to.  The burden of superiority shifts from "pounding someones face in" to a predisposed accuracy that lends AK its easy tranference from discourse to discourse.   I brought this up because someone asked you if AK has a comparable floor plan to bjj.    The answer is simple- do I get points taken off for killing and not following the rules because we don't have any. 



> I think this Applied Kenpo will give them an advantage combined with the Jiu-jitsu.. Thanks for bringing it to light ~!



You are welcome.  However you let someone incorrectly correct you.   I will not be offering anymore information on this subject but I can leave  you with this:  Don't assume anything and practice everything.


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## Seig (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> You are welcome.  However you let someone incorrectly correct you.   I will not be offering anymore information on this subject but I can leave  you with this:  Don't assume anything and practice everything. *


Considering I am the instructor that corrected her, please enlighten me as to how I incorrectly corrected her.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

Maybe he is thinking twice about it.  I dont get it either...... help me chad


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## Rainman (May 21, 2002)

What don't you get?

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

incorrectly correct KenpoTess?


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## Rainman (May 21, 2002)

The "MOUNT" is an innate human reflex and should not be dicarded in its "JUJITSU" form.  Ever watch little kids fight?  They naturally assume this position in a certain circumstance.  Men who attack women do exactly these same things whether it be rape or to plainly beat the hell out of them.  My other half works within these situations.  Lets just say I have done my research in this area-  teach women to defend from the full mount period.



:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

I see. 

 :asian:


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## Seig (May 22, 2002)

Now I also see your point.  Part of *MY*  point in the exercisw was the fact that they have already worked from the mount position extensively.  I wanted them working from a different perspective.  It is logical that for a rape to occur, at some point the rapist must go from the mount position to the "mount" position and at this point a seasoned practitioner may gain the edge she needs as it then allows her to bring more weapons to bear.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

to the sermon on the "Mount" right?


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## Rainman (May 23, 2002)

Who me?  Sermen?  What- How- Why-





:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

Whoooo hoooooo
:asian:


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## Rainman (May 23, 2002)

Thankyou- thankyou very much.



:asian:


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