# Sho Ten No Jutsu



## Kizaru (Sep 12, 2004)

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering who else out there works on "Sho Ten No Jutsu" (running up and over walls, trees, bodies etc). What kind of training methods do you use? How often do you train on it? At your dojo, at what point do you begin to practice this (ie after a year; 4th kyu; teacher's discression; student's choice etc)? Have you ever used Sho Ten No Jutsu to escape a bad situation?

Looking forward to reading your experiences!


----------



## AaronLucia (Sep 13, 2004)

Iv'e been training for 3 months and i still haven't seen any of it yet.


----------



## Dale Seago (Sep 13, 2004)

AaronLucia said:
			
		

> Iv'e been training for 3 months and i still haven't seen any of it yet.



Heh. I've been training for twenty years and go to  Japan regularly, and there's plenty I still haven't seen yet.


----------



## AaronLucia (Sep 13, 2004)

Which is why i love Ninjutsu, always something to learn!


----------



## AnimEdge (Sep 13, 2004)

Sounds like Parkour or "Extream Running"  ya know teh stuff you seen on that addis comertal of those british kids running and jumping across buildings and such, one you get teh roll down its basicly just practice


----------



## Kizaru (Sep 14, 2004)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> Sounds like Parkour or "Extream Running"  ya know teh stuff you seen on that addis comertal of those british kids running and jumping across buildings and such,


Where I live, we don't have Addidas commercials on TV, but I've seen a "Parkour" (sp?) clip on the internet before. Jackie Chan also applies the same kind of skill in the movie "Rush Hour" I believe, but he probably doesn't call it "Sho Ten No Jutsu". "Sho Ten No Jutsu" appears in a few of Hatsumi sensei's books as well as in a pre-WW2 published book, "Ninjutsu Gokui Hidensho".  If anyone can find an "Extreme Running" clip they'd like to post here, please do.

If anyone would like to share training experiences, please feel free to post directly or PM me.


----------



## Enson (Sep 14, 2004)

our school/dojo/ryu does train in it but we just call it a "wall flip". i personally haven't done/trained in it. afraid i'll break my neck. i guess when the time is right to do so... i will. 

peace


----------



## Dale Seago (Sep 14, 2004)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> Sounds like Parkour or "Extream Running"  ya know teh stuff you seen on that addis comertal of those british kids running and jumping across buildings and such, one you get teh roll down its basicly just practice



That's about right, I'd say. 

Someone asked me whether shoten no jutsu was a skill we work on in my dojo. . .We have worked on it, but not for probably close to ten years, though there are some occasional applications in taijutsu vs. other people.


----------



## AnimEdge (Sep 14, 2004)

Its generaly a side thing, its rather rural here, so driving around even looking for a place to practice parkour or whatever you call it finding a place is quite rare so we dont use it as much, but sometimes we pull out this like wall things (there stacked thingys those "step arobic" people use) and we do stuff over those but manly if you can run/jump/climn over it and know how to land it and roll(if needed) is the majority of what is needed


----------



## George Kohler (Sep 17, 2004)

The kanji for "sho" means to "ascend" or "rise up." The other kanji is "ten" which means "heaven." Together it means "ascend to heaven."

About once a month I have my students practice shoten, which is one of our [Genbukan] kyu requirements.

The best method I've found is to have a board at a low angle and run all the way up. After, then adjust the angle higher. So on and so on, until you can run up a wall or tree. The important points (kuden - oral teachings) I will keep to myself since there are a lot of "wannabe's" who will use it for their "fake" ninja websites.

Some people don't know that this was practiced in Chinese MA. I will not say which MA it is, or the name of it, because of what I mentioned above.


----------



## Enson (Sep 17, 2004)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> I will keep to myself since there are a lot of "wannabe's" who will use it for their "fake" ninja websites.
> 
> Some people don't know that this was practiced in Chinese MA. I will not say which MA it is, or the name of it, because of what I mentioned above.


george you apparently haven't been around awhile to see that this kinda attitude is prohibited here. if you don't want to post info then don't, but don't get the attitude that you have a secret you can't share. it doesn't make me no never mind because we are taught it in our school.
other then that... good info for beginning.
peace


----------



## George Kohler (Sep 17, 2004)

Enson,

I don't know what you are talking about when you say that my attitude is prohibited, but I have been here for quite a while. Maybe not posting, but definitely been here. I been here since Dec 2001 and didn't even sign up until E-Budo was down this year.

I mentioned that there are other stuff (kuden) because I don't what to give the impression that running up a board at angles, or running up trees is the only thing it takes to do shoten. People who want to learn need to see a qualified instructor to learn.

The reason I will not share the information is because of an incident some years back on the Ninpo-L listserver (I think it was back 97 or 98), where someone took some information that was posted on the listserver and used it for their fake ninja ryu website claiming as their own. I think Kreth, Dale and Don would agree with me here that kuden should not be posted on the web.


----------



## Kreth (Sep 17, 2004)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> I think Kreth, Dale and Don would agree with me here that kuden should not be posted on the web.


Definitely. The fakes should have to work for their curriculum...

Jeff


----------



## Enson (Sep 17, 2004)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> Enson,
> 
> I don't know what you are talking about when you say that my attitude is prohibited, but I have been here for quite a while. Maybe not posting, but definitely been here. I been here since Dec 2001 and didn't even sign up until E-Budo was down this year.


george,
if there is one thing i have learned in my short time with this forum is... "if its not documented it never happened." " I think Kreth, Dale and Don would agree with me here." 

anyway i'm only stating that if you have something to say... say it. if you don't want to don't. but you shouldn't mention that you know something, start elaborating, and then say... well nothing. if you want to help, good. if not just don't wave your candy in the air singing, "i have a candy, i have a candy, you can't have it, because you are poor". (did that only happen to me growing up?)
i am in agreement when that you want to keep some things to yourself in your style. wouldn't want the "wannabes" (bujin) to still the genbu stuff! hee hee! sorry couldn't resist!  :lol: let them work for it!


----------



## George Kohler (Sep 17, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> george,
> if there is one thing i have learned in my short time with this forum is... "if its not documented it never happened." " I think Kreth, Dale and Don would agree with me here."




Kuden (oral teachings) are not documented, but sometimes are hinted at in the densho. They are orally transmited from teacher to student when it is the right time.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> anyway i'm only stating that if you have something to say... say it. if you don't want to don't. but you shouldn't mention that you know something, start elaborating, and then say... well nothing. if you want to help, good. if not just don't wave your candy in the air singing, "i have a candy, i have a candy, you can't have it, because you are poor". (did that only happen to me growing up?)



I did answer most of Kizaru's questions, which were:

1. I was wondering who else out there works on "Sho Ten No Jutsu" (running up and over walls, trees, bodies etc)?

***Just replying that I teach this to my students answered this question.

2. What kind of training methods do you use?

***Here was my answer:
The best method I've found is to have a board at a low angle and run all the way up. After, then adjust the angle higher. So on and so on, until you can run up a wall or tree. 

3. How often do you train on it?

***Here was my answer:
About once a month I have my students practice shoten...

4. At your dojo, at what point do you begin to practice this (ie after a year; 4th kyu; teacher's discression; student's choice etc)?

***Here was my answer:
which is one of our [Genbukan] kyu requirements.

I said this vaguely. For one, all of my students do it. Number two, since all of my students do it, it is part of our mu-kyu (white belt level) along with all of our taihenjutsu (rolling, breakfalls, jumping, ect).

5. Have you ever used Sho Ten No Jutsu to escape a bad situation?

***Didn't answer this because I never used it to escape a bad situation.

I also added the meaning of the kanji so that when others read this post they will understand that it is not "Extreme Running," "wall flip," or "stacked thingys those 'step arobic' people use." It is not about wall flipping or any of the other things that were said. The body dynamics are totally different.

As for the Chinese method, if you research hard enough you will find that a famous baguazhang teacher learned this when he was a kid. He learned it from a family member before studying baguazhang. BTW, this has nothing to do with the Chinese ninja crap that you can read from books.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> i am in agreement when that you want to keep some things to yourself in your style. wouldn't want the "wannabes" (bujin) to still the genbu stuff! hee hee! sorry couldn't resist!  :lol: let them work for it!



Sorry, but I would not consider bujinkan members as "wannabe's." I was once a member of the bujinkan for 10 years (that was 10 years ago), and I learned good stuff, including kuden. If they haven't learned the kuden for shoten yet, then I am sure that one day their teacher will explain it to them.


----------



## Enson (Sep 20, 2004)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I would not consider bujinkan members as "wannabe's." I was once a member of the bujinkan for 10 years (that was 10 years ago), and I learned good stuff, including kuden. If they haven't learned the kuden for shoten yet, then I am sure that one day their teacher will explain it to them.


george,
first off the wannabe comment from me was ment as a joke! (i.e. the laugh and the wink) lighten up a bit.

second, if you feel you answered the question then good for you. i was just trying to point something out. not trying to offend you in anyway.

peace


----------



## gumo9 (Sep 27, 2004)

Hello

Yep, done Shoten at my dojo quite a few times. There is a beam that runs from wall to wall about 14 ft above the floor and most of us can happily run up the wall and grab on to the beam. It took a couple of weeks of practice but as soon as one person managed to touch the beam, everyone else soon followed. 

I tried following various "kuden" but actually found them to be counter productive in this case (possibly either my poor interpretation, or cynically, written by someone who can't actually do what they advocate !). The best way of doing it I found was simply to run up the wall and grab on to the beam.... in other words, just focus on your goal, then achieve it. 

just my little contribution

Graham
Manchester, UK

By the way, Hi Don, howe ya doin' ?


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 27, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> anyway i'm only stating that if you have something to say... say it. if you don't want to don't. but you shouldn't mention that you know something, start elaborating, and then say... well nothing.



I think that was set in place for people saying that they could prove something, but will not. Saying that there is more to the subject that you just do not want to get into on a public forum is a slightly different situation.


----------



## ninhito (Oct 2, 2004)

hey guys i want to know what is standard height for completion of sho ten no jutsu?  I try and use it on my garage (got no place in the house) and thats about ten or 9 feet off the ground plus on another scale im kinda scared jumping off that and doing a back flip (why try it in the air when you can't do it on the ground).  O and how in the world could you get up a tree using that.  A tree is alot different from any biulding so ya know that would be difficult to even get up to 9 feet. Just questions i got to ask.


----------



## Kizaru (Oct 3, 2004)

ninhito said:
			
		

> hey guys i want to know what is standard height for completion of sho ten no jutsu?


What does your instructor recommend?



> I try and use it on my garage (got no place in the house) and thats about ten or 9 feet off the ground plus on another scale im kinda scared jumping off that and doing a back flip (why try it in the air when you can't do it on the ground). .


You could severely injure or even kill yourself when practicing or applying this. A competent instructor should be able to provide a safe environment for you to train in.



> O and how in the world could you get up a tree using that. A tree is alot different from any biulding so ya know that would be difficult to even get up to 9 feet...


Your instructor could probably demonstrate better than anyone could explain in words here.

:asian:


----------



## ninhito (Oct 3, 2004)

Thanks


----------



## zujitsu (Jun 7, 2005)

He's a parkour vid i made a while ago i got 3 more of me and a bunch of others so if anyone is interested i could send you some just e-mail me.

here is the link 

http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3PJF3QOO36N0Q1YLY5VS8O1NKS


----------



## Mr.Franco (Jun 10, 2005)

> anyway i'm only stating that if you have something to say... say it. if you don't want to don't. but you shouldn't mention that you know something, start elaborating, and then say... well nothing.


I think George was doing the "responsible" thing. He gave some info. which someone asked about and basically said if you want to learn this, it's not just running up planks, look for an instructor who can elaborate on the subject so you won't injure yourself.

And to not want to give "Kuden" on a public forum (where anyone can mis-use the info) is very responsible. To do so would be a slap in the face to his instructor and his peers who worked hard to receive the info.

Giving it away freely is not cool!


----------



## Peter Steeves (Jun 12, 2005)

Heck, I can't resist:

If you write it down.... then does it cease to be "Ku Den" ? So maybe there's nothing to worry about!  

Not to get too far off track, but someone I consider a very accomplished martial artist once said, "When I've mastered and gotten bored with all of the written material, then I'll worry about whatever is too important to write down."

Forums are just too much fun sometimes.artyon:


----------



## Gina (Jun 12, 2005)

I fully understand that Shoten No Jutsu is part of Ninjutsu and something I have practiced in the past,   

I do not tend to show this type of stuff anymore unless I really know and trust the person I am with i.e. trained and known them for many years. My reasons for this are because:

a) We do not know who comes in our dojo. That new beginner could be a burglar. We have to ask ourselves if what we are teaching benefits our community.
b) Shoten is probably not needed as much today as in the past, unless you are a police officer or some such thing. Maybe better off spending more time practicing rolling.
c) As a martial arts instructor with full public liability cover, I would be just a little worried in case one of my students got hurt. I can just imagine some guy sueing me, and my insurers hearing that my student broke his arm because I had him running up walls.

My insurance is for martial arts and I feel that Insurers don't expect us to run up walls and do some of the other things we do in ninjutsu as part of training. I would be interested in what other instructors feel about this.

                                        Gary Arthur
                          (Quest Uk, Northants Quest Centre)


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 17, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I think that was set in place for people saying that they could prove something, but will not.



sojobow!


----------



## silatman (Jun 17, 2005)

Im not trying to be smart but are you guys seriously training to run up walls.
I cant see the relevance of training to be a ninja in 2005.
Maybe just maybe if you are doing a completely traditional style it should be touched on. Where are the true applications for the general MA. Is it just for demenstrations.


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 17, 2005)

silatman said:
			
		

> Im not trying to be smart but are you guys seriously training to run up walls.
> I cant see the relevance of training to be a ninja in 2005.
> Maybe just maybe if you are doing a completely traditional style it should be touched on. Where are the true applications for the general MA. Is it just for demenstrations.



Well, if you define MA (martial arts) as beating someone up, there really is no relevance.

But if you think of it as self defense then you have to think that the idea of getting home in one peice is the objective. And running away can be a very, very good means to that end.

I would reccomend you read the book "Street E&E" by Marc "Animal" MacYoung to try to see where I am coming from. It is all about running away from people or people's trying to send you to meet you ancestors a little earlier than expected. One of the sections deals with something pretty close to shoten no jutsu. 

If you are trying to get away from an attacker, or attackers, then what the heck do you do when faced with a wall? For the ninjutsu practicioner, the answer is shoten no jutsu. It does not help in a sparring situation, but can help you on the street _to survive._


----------



## silatman (Jun 18, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Well, if you define MA (martial arts) as beating someone up, there really is no relevance.
> 
> But if you think of it as self defense then you have to think that the idea of getting home in one peice is the objective. And running away can be a very, very good means to that end.
> 
> ...



I have lived in the same town my entire life and wouldnt think about running to somewhere that has walls that would box me in, so I've never even considered the possibility that I would need the abillity of climbing a 10ft+ wall. 
Maybe I should.
 :asian:


----------



## Teppan (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm a beginner at ninjutsu and the martial arts. But i've been training on my own from books and videos for some years now. There were no budo taijutsu instructors where i live. Yes i have practiced sho ten no jutsu "climbing to the heavens" tactics. There's this experience that i have with this technique. I was walking down the street  going to a near by bakery when i sudenly saw three big dogs charging towards me. It took a couple of seconds for them to reach me. I remember going up a wall and then a tree. I don't remember what had happened. But the people who saw the incident said that they saw me running up the wall then the tree. I' don't remember doing that. I guess it's part of our instincts. And some training. The dog's are called rott weilers or something like that. I guess that when you see something like that you'll run up anything. But if you have no training you will probably frezze, fall down and eventually be shreded to pieces by some wild animal. Ninjutsu it's great. I'm now learning the san chin no kata. I hope i learn much from all the great people here at martial talk.


----------

