# Thuggery in the Martial Arts



## SensibleManiac (Aug 26, 2007)

I think this forum would be fitting to discuss this topic. Has anyone ever noticed or experienced the way some martial artists or Self Defense "Gurus" discuss martial arts or self defense in particular is very close to thuggery. Imagine if in another non martial field someone would make the comments or carry themselves the way some martial artists do. 

Ever hear of LT. X? This guy brags in his advertising how his system is so lethal and how he's used it on anyone standing in his way. His newsletter states that he was at a gym while on vacation and some guy was loud, so Lt. X?  made fun of him then proceeded to insult and threaten him, and that he was able to do this all because of the phenomenal fighting skills he possesses.

Other stories I've heard (and we probably all have) are about challenge matches. I do agree that if people go around making claims they should be able to back up those claims. But I think it's abit ridiculous when they square off in sometimes irresponsible ways. Rickson Gracie fighting on the beach because he's challenged. A certain self defense instructor setting up a fight with one of his instructors and a disgruntled student when that student wanted his money back. To the point where the two fighters ended up biting each other. These are just 2 examples of irresponsibility in the guise of "testing" arts. 
The MMA field as well where some leagues I've noticed like the IFL take a very professional stance on the fighters and other leagues where the fighters bad mouth, threaten, and even belittle each other which I find makes the MA out to look very unprofesional and stupid.
I bothers me that martial arts a demeaned in these ways.


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 26, 2007)

SensibleManiac said:


> Ever hear of LT. X? This guy brags in his advertising how his system is so lethal and how he's used it on anyone standing in his way. His newsletter states that he was at a gym while on vacation and some guy was loud, so Lt. X? made fun of him then proceeded to insult and threaten him, and that he was able to do this all because of the phenomenal fighting skills he possesses.


 
Good old Lt X has been the subject of some discussion here before.  I'd have to say he is a lot of talk and very little substance and his blah is probably not true.  That, however, does not detract from the fact that he is presenting martial arts in a bad light.




SensibleManiac said:


> The MMA field as well where some leagues I've noticed like the IFL take a very professional stance on the fighters and other leagues where the fighters bad mouth, threaten, and even belittle each other which I find makes the MA out to look very unprofesional and stupid.


 
This is an unfortunate consequence of competition.  Especially when competitors are unsure of themselves and their abilities.  It does MAs no favours but it is a much lesser crime than the crowing and prancing of people like LT X.  We have seen enough of boxing to know what drives it and where it ends.




SensibleManiac said:


> I bothers me that martial arts a demeaned in these ways.


 
It bothers me too, but all we can do is warn people of charlatans and present positive examples through our own actions.


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## Last Fearner (Aug 27, 2007)

SensibleManiac said:


> Has anyone ever noticed or experienced the way some martial artists or Self Defense "Gurus" discuss martial arts or self defense in particular is very close to thuggery.
> 
> Imagine if in another non martial field someone would make the comments or carry themselves the way some martial artists do.


Yes, it would be considered unethical, and in most cases illegal - as it should be for those who claim to be Martial Artists.



SensibleManiac said:


> Ever hear of LT. X? This guy brags in his advertising how his system is so lethal and how he's used it on anyone standing in his way. His newsletter states that he was at a gym while on vacation and some guy was loud, so Lt. X? made fun of him then proceeded to insult and threaten him, and that he was able to do this all because of the phenomenal fighting skills he possesses.


This is a prime example of people who call themselves Martial Artists, but are nothing more than thugs, brawlers, and street fighters just like gang bangers. There are those who actually believe that this kind of behavior is acceptable - - even admirable, and is what makes a person a superior Martial Artist. It is my opinion (which is shared by many respected, life-long Grandmasters of a variety of Martial Disciplines) that this lack of ethical behavior and moral conduct nullifies the individual's claim to be called a Martial Artist.

There are males and females in this world which we call men and women, but I believe it takes a special person with honorable conduct to be considered a "gentleman" or a "lady." If a man is being rude, and disrespectful to people or physically assaults someone, I might be polite and say, "excuse me, sir," or when the police arrive I will say, "that fellow over there assaulted this woman," but make no mistake.... he is no gentleman!

These people are doing the Martial Art a disservice and affect all of us who truly are ladies and gentlemen, and genuine Martial Artists. I think each of us need to make a decision to claim the respect and honor that has always been associated with the true nature of the Martial Art, and continue to inform and educate the rest of the public that these people, despite their claims, certificates, belt rankings, or fighting abilities are not Martial Artists.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 27, 2007)

Last Ferner that was a nice well thought out post and I agree.


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## SensibleManiac (Aug 27, 2007)

> It bothers me too, but all we can do is warn people of charlatans and present positive examples through our own actions.


 
Well put, I think the need to be a good example and a role model especially for younger students is VERY important.




> These people are doing the Martial Art a disservice and affect all of us who truly are ladies and gentlemen, and genuine Martial Artists. I think each of us need to make a decision to claim the respect and honor that has always been associated with the true nature of the Martial Art, and continue to inform and educate the rest of the public that these people, despite their claims, certificates, belt rankings, or fighting abilities are not Martial Artists.


 
This is an excellent point too. I don't for a second pretend to be a "PERFECT" person, but the deeper aspect always lies in intent. If your intention is to protect yourself and others, there's a deeper aspect of respect and honor that will show through. Compared to those whose only aim in the martial arts or self defense is to spread fear so that they can profit.


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## JBrainard (Aug 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Last Ferner that was a nice well thought out post and I agree.


 
Ditto. My teacher got into a lot of street fights as a teenager and martial arts (among other things) got him out of that stage of his life. He once told me that he had fought thugs who had martial arts training, but he now knows that they were not real martial artists, or else they wouldn't have been out there "thuggin'" in the first place.


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## seninoniwashi (Aug 27, 2007)

To all the fellow American Kenpoist out there of the Ed Parker style; I have had our style and grandmaster attacked several times. I have heard stories of him picking fights in bars and browbeating people into fights with him that really didn&#8217;t even want to fight. I have heard things as extreme as him beating people to the point of their last breath in alleyways with no regard for human life. Anyone with information to contribute to this please post &#8211; this is one of the hardest things to hear when practicing this style.


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## Wild Bill (Aug 27, 2007)

I have never heard of any stories about Mr. Parker beating people half to death but it wouldn't surprise me. Mr. Parker and most of the other Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo masters grew up in rough times. He was an exceptional martial artist and would have probably been challenged a lot in an era where you really did have to put up or shut up. Just because Mr. Parker may have had to defend himself a few times doesn't mean that he enjoyed hurting people.


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 27, 2007)

The posts above about Ed Parker just made me think about the way perceptions change over time. We live in a relatively safe society in which we choose to learn fighting arts for various reasons.

In the past, the reasons were different and the approaches were different. Many of the founders of Karate and numerous Chinese arts might be viewed as thugs if their actions were taken out of contex and setting. Most lived in times when an art absolutely had to to be effective, there was no room for assumption so arts were "tested". Not necessarily by picking fights but by not choosing the non-confrontational way out of a situation. 

Many worked in brutal professions that were a perfect ground for developing their techniques. Were they brutal? Probably. Were they thugs? Probably not. If they had been they would not be admired for their good works. They would be remembered for their abhorent actions.

Nowadays, however, we don't experience the same societal conditions they did, so it is not appropriate to seek to test our skills in the same manner. Martial Arts has a reputation for calm, control, precision, and skill. The why of this has already been worked out for us by the pioneers of the arts and it is unnecessary for us to go to the same lengths to achieve something (its generally illegal too). Any who choose to venture into that mode of behaviour are not doing martial arts any favours, and as LF said cannot be considered either ladies or gentlemen or martial artists.


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## seninoniwashi (Aug 28, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Many worked in brutal professions that were a perfect ground for developing their techniques. Were they brutal? Probably. Were they thugs? Probably not. If they had been they would not be admired for their good works. They would be remembered for their abhorent actions.


 
Good reply Steel Tiger,

It is hard to remember times have changed. Now days physical conflict can end in a felony. A Martial Artist has to be careful when dealing with the troubles a day can present. A lot of the above comments in my initial post Ive come across were posted by people that seemed bent on destroying his image and his style of the art. Id love to hear more from all of you out there

Especially my Kenpo brothers and sisters


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