# Is your knife training teaching you about range and how to control it?



## Charlemagne (Aug 22, 2016)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1854710588083255
			




My title pretty much says it.  

One of the really common things I see when people demo knife (offense or defense), even in most FMA's, is a lack of discussion about controlling range.  Tim Waid, who is the head of the PTK organization I train under likes to ask "how did you get there?" when those super sweet videos are posted of people doing cool stuff with the knife.  

In the video above, while you don't see much in the way of lateral movement or use of the triangle, you do see the importance of range.  One should also be able to see why medium range with the knife, is so dangerous.  There are ways to attack your opponent, particularly their hand, without being in position to get hit yourself.  If you do go inside, get in all the way.  If you are going to stay out, get out all the way.  Medium range is a range to bridge through, not a place to hang out.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 22, 2016)

My knife training goes like this. See a knife get pulled GTFO of there


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## Buka (Aug 22, 2016)

Yes, from day one.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 22, 2016)

I don't claim to be any kind of expert in using the knife or defending against it, but when I do train or teach anything related to knife work I am very focused on the importance of range.

One gripe I do have with how some FMA instructors show stuff is that they start new students out with tapping/hubud/flow drills where the students stay right in the kill zone the whole time and they don't immediately make it clear that these are just drills for developing sensitivity and reflexes to give them a chance of surviving for a few seconds in a range where you never want to spend more than a second or two when a knife is involved.  

Personally I'd rather make sure the student understands the importance of controlling distance first, before they get caught up in these sort of close range drills.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't claim to be any kind of expert in using the knife or defending against it, but when I do train or teach anything related to knife work I am very focused on the importance of range.
> 
> One gripe I do have with how some FMA instructors show stuff is that they start new students out with tapping/hubud/flow drills where the students stay right in the kill zone the whole time and they don't immediately make it clear that these are just drills for developing sensitivity and reflexes to give them a chance of surviving for a few seconds in a range where you never want to spend more than a second or two when a knife is involved.
> 
> Personally I'd rather make sure the student understands the importance of controlling distance first, before they get caught up in these sort of close range drills.



Nobody trains exits.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Nobody trains exits.


I do.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I do.



I have started playing with the concept myself. Especially unarmed v knife. Take one dip at that limb and get out.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Nobody trains exits.



We train them all the time.  In fact, it is one of the things which is really emphasized early on.


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## Buka (Aug 22, 2016)

knives still scare the bejesus out of me. More than firearms.


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## Danny T (Aug 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't claim to be any kind of expert in using the knife or defending against it, but when I do train or teach anything related to knife work I am very focused on the importance of range.
> 
> One gripe I do have with how some FMA instructors show stuff is that they start new students out with tapping/hubud/flow drills where the students stay right in the kill zone the whole time and they don't immediately make it clear that these are just drills for developing sensitivity and reflexes to give them a chance of surviving for a few seconds in a range where you never want to spend more than a second or two when a knife is involved.
> 
> Personally I'd rather make sure the student understands the importance of controlling distance first, before they get caught up in these sort of close range drills.


We don't begin these types of drills until after our students have a good understanding of footwork and body movement first.
Tapping,Chekete/Echekete, Break-in/Break-out, Segang Labo are all drill platforms with associated footwork and body displacement to enter, tie up and finish or to enter, break off, and egress safely.




drop bear said:


> Nobody trains exits.


Yes we do!!!

Long through medium to close range and back out to long. Never stay in medium range. 
In the contradas and recontras sets the ending weapon actions are designed to keep attacking if you are able to or to keep you covered as you exit.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2016)

Movement is essential in IRT and taught from day one along with range and also Drop Bear, exits. 

Tony, in reference to your quote about some FMA teachers not teaching people to move during drills.  Frankly, personally I think that is lazy teaching!  When I see people teaching drills where two people stand in the same place *I cringe!*  It is specifically seen with a few guys who just learned a little bit and then went out to teach but you also see it with some seasoned people who should know better!


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Ok. Let's see examples of exits. Because that is a major component of maintaining distance.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 22, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is specifically seen with a few guys who just learned a little bit and then went out to teach but you also see it with some seasoned people who should know better!



You do, and I think that is because many were never taught it in the first place.  Many FMA systems don't seem to consider how to get in an out of range all that much, even those which have tactics for fighting in various ranges.  I'm not sure why that is, but it is definitely something I've noticed.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Let's see examples of exits. Because that is a major component of maintaining distance.







Go from 1:30 - 3:08 in this video and you can see one of the ways we do it with both the long weapon and empty hand.  We do the same thing with the knife.  Much of the time (not always) this will include ranging footwork on the reverse 45 deg. angle, as is shown above.  We often refer to that as the "Universal Evasion Angle", even though there are times when you wouldn't necessarily want to go that direction.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 22, 2016)

Would creating distance in order to draw a firearm be considered an "exit"?
If so then I do exits in two different ways one for firearms and one unarmed called run away


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## Buka (Aug 22, 2016)

This is the stuff we do.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 22, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> ...and one unarmed called run away



Wise.  I call that the "Jessie Owens Technique".  Though I suppose I will need to update my name to Usain Bolt.


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## Juany118 (Aug 25, 2016)

Danny T said:


> We don't begin these types of drills until after our students have a good understanding of footwork and body movement first.
> Tapping,Chekete/Echekete, Break-in/Break-out, Segang Labo are all drill platforms with associated footwork and body displacement to enter, tie up and finish or to enter, break off, and egress safely.
> 
> 
> ...


This is largely how we operate as well.  We obviously learn the ranges and how they apply to empty hand, knife, stick/sword etc but beyond the concepts it's "get foot work/zoning down first" then integrate moving between ranges.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> My knife training goes like this. See a knife get pulled GTFO of there


That's only workable if they are far enough away that you can do so without getting stabbed in the back. If it's a knife attack, GTFO is not usually an immediate option.


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## Juany118 (Aug 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That's only workable if they are far enough away that you can do so without getting stabbed in the back. If it's a knife attack, GTFO is not usually an immediate option.



You beat me to it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1854710588083255
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. I teach maintaining distance until it is time to enter. Stay out, then get in, attack and finish or exit fully. If I can't finish them quickly while I'm in (if I fail to control the limb), then I get out fully and make them start over. I don't want to be in a wrestlig/grappling match with a knife-holder.


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## Juany118 (Aug 25, 2016)

An interesting coincidence that Doug Marcaida posted this this morning...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10209371534221762&id=1126127758


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That's only workable if they are far enough away that you can do so without getting stabbed in the back. If it's a knife attack, GTFO is not usually an immediate option.


Yes I was joking


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## Charlemagne (Aug 25, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> An interesting coincidence that Doug Marcaida posted this this morning...
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10209371534221762&id=1126127758



He has some good stuff, and seems like a good guy from my limited interactions with him.  

Different systems are going to define range a bit differently, but that is to be expected.  The one thing I would like to see more systems talking about is not just range of the weapon in relation to your opponent or type of attack, but bridging (moving from one range to another) in and out of range.  Taking one step in or out is great, and certainly has its application, but what about when you are under a full on attack and you need to get way out, or when you are attacking and you need to press the distance as your opponent is trying to get out?  That is something I rarely see taught, and it is hugely important.


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## Danny T (Aug 25, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> This is largely how we operate as well.  We obviously learn the ranges and how they apply to empty hand, knife, stick/sword etc but beyond the concepts it's "get foot work/zoning down first" then integrate moving between ranges.


Footwork, Footwork, Footwork. Lack of it will get you into trouble and without it you will stay in trouble.  
Everyone wants to win where your mindset should be to not be there. 
MOVE! 
I attempt to impress my students to move first; striking in the proper position, range, and precision with power is a by-product of moving therefore footwork is the primary action.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 25, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Footwork, Footwork, Footwork. Lack of it will get you into trouble and without it you will stay in trouble.
> Everyone wants to win where your mindset should be to not be there.
> MOVE!
> I attempt to impress my students to move first; striking in the proper position, range, and precision with power is a by-product of moving therefore footwork is the primary action.



Definitely.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 25, 2016)

Here's another good example of how we control range through bridging footwork, this time with the knife, and also the importance of not only your movement, but forcing your opponent to move as well.


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