# What should I expect from a school in 2015?



## PlutoISaPlanet (Mar 25, 2015)

It's been over a decade since I've trained. I mostly dropped out as a teenager after moving to a new town and signing onto a McDojo I quickly lost respect for. Still, I regret not sticking it out, I was young and foolish. 

I'm looking for a school now for myself and my daughter who's in elementary school. I previously trained in TKD, Tang Soo Do and American Kenpo. I always preferred the Korean styles mostly because of the differences in sparring, but I'm now pretty concerned with the prevalence of BJJ, grappling and ground-fighting in general that I'm worried about going into a strictly TKD or TSD school.

What I'm mainly wondering is what to expect from schools today. As a kid I paid probably a third of what places are charging monthly now for unlimited access to classes. I was pretty put off by cash-grabs such as Black Belt Clubs then but can kind of understand it now as an adult and knowing these are businesses that need to make money. I've only interviewed one TKD school so far that would charge over $100 monthly for each of us for 3 classes a week. They also have a BJJ class one day a week for an extra charge... and a weapons class one day a week for an extra charge... belt promotions for $40 a pop every 3 months... 

if that's just the way business is done now I'll deal with it. I'm just hoping to get back involved somewhere and avoid the McDojo as much as possible and would appreciate some guidance.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 25, 2015)

This is just my opinion and may not reflect all schools. I have found most TKD and TSD schools in my area are run like business that focus on child enrollment and charging for all the amenities.  If this is something you wish to avoid you may want to expand your search to other styles. I would also be extra cautious about a pure TKD school that teaches a grappling class unless they are bringing in a BJJ guy to teach or have some kind of verifiable back round.  
One thing to also keep in mind is that while the idea of parent child bonding doing a martial art sounds wonderful often the goals of the two don't match up well and somebody's training suffers.


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## Drose427 (Mar 25, 2015)

No matter what you choose youre gonna have to do some research.

In my area, TSD/TKD isnt nearly as kid oriented as some of the schools Ive met at tourneys.
Our branch schools that have their own Dojang frequently get LEOS and Military guys who go fairly hard and love it. But one of the schools who have good relations with us went for the sport/children/family style school.

Im not saying we dont still appeal to families or are incapable of teaching kids, but we arent having movie nights, or things like that youll see at some schools. We're a militaristic organization focused on discipline and SD, whether you're 4 or 40, we can be stern.

In my area, McBJJ vastly outweighs good quality BJJ. One gym whos lineage is wide open and who has their ducks in a row fairly frequently submit the guys from outside gyms. He's a NAGA champ, I believe he competed in UFC and simply knows his stuff.

On in particular charges insane amounts of money a month for "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" but isnt open about his lineage and his students simply cannot roll. 2 Years of wrestling and brief knowledge learning from an IBJFF Blue Belt and I was submitting many of that guys purple/brown belts.

He just tells his students they need to work harder to improve after they lose and they trust their instructor.

100 a month is expensive regardless, Id be wary of that school.

Check out whats in your area, odds are you'll find something you'll like thats operated how you like.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 25, 2015)

PlutoISaPlanet said:


> if that's just the way business is done now I'll deal with it. I'm just hoping to get back involved somewhere and avoid the McDojo as much as possible and would appreciate some guidance.



Well, you have to make a choice in what sort of environment you want.  Schools are very expensive to run when run professionally.  That is a good space in a good location with paid staff.  I believe the current average for tuition is around $125 / month, with upgraded options at a good many of them.  We are businesses after all, and we need to pay our bills and pay our staff.  You get the advantage of a dedicated facility that is hopefully in good condition with good equipment and full time professionals instructors.  For this reason most of the top schools are going to have a decent price tag attached to them.

On the other hand there are plenty of hobbiest schools, where the instructors have a full time job and teach a few hours a week.  Often in a space that is rented for that time, rather then a dedicated facility.  It's not a business for them, it's a hobby and a part time job, often that they pay to do rather then pays them.

There are advantages to paying the premium for instructors that are on the floor teaching and training 30-40 hours a week vs ones that spend 4-5 hours a week.  It's just a matter of hours put in, us full time instructors are on the floor far more and teach far more students.  You can find a good instructor that is a hobbiest and charges pennies occasionally, and there are plenty of professional instructors that are good with business, but less so with instructing.  

If you want to compare costs and get an idea if they are out of where they should be compare them to similar businesses.  Dedicated yoga studios, indoor bootcamps with dedicated facilities, cross fit boxes, dance schools, etc.  In most cases you'll find they are pretty similar, and in a lot of cases have something similar to what martial arts schools often call a BBC, with a different name, and maybe different perks attached.  But same fundamental idea.

Anyways, don't confuse good business sense for being a McDojo.  Good business sense will allow a good school to be great and provide a higher level of service, it can also keep a poor quality school (in terms of instruction) afloat, which is why a lot of people get a bad taste in there mouth regarding schools that actually run like a business.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

Judo can be cheaper in general.


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## Buka (Mar 26, 2015)

Welcome to the forum, bro. Best of luck to you and your daughter in finding the right dojo for you.


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## Mephisto (Mar 26, 2015)

Where are you located? Some of us here might be familiar with your area or at least might be able to find a promising school via Google. 

Consider boxing as an option, it's usually more affordable as long as you avoid the recent boom of cardio boxing schools popping up. Find a gym that trains fighters and try it out. You and your daughter don't necessarily have to spar or fight but you'll be getting training and conditioning comparable to what the fighters get.


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## donald1 (Mar 26, 2015)

If its a good school good things can be expected


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## WaterGal (Mar 26, 2015)

It sounds like you're asking more about business practices than about training.

What's reasonable/typical in terms of tuition is, I think, going to depend a _lot _on the local cost-of-living. There was a TSD place next to where I used to work that charged $160/month, because it was a very expensive and high-income area.  Where I live (middle-class exurbs), charging $100-120/month is common. $40 for a test seems typical to me for a full-time commercial school - as long as they're holding students to a high standard and only letting people test/pass when they're ready.  Some places will test everyone and pass everyone, just to make extra cash - if you went to a McDojo-y place as a teenager, you probably know what I'm talking about.

For the extra stuff.... I think it depends.  In the case of that school, is the grappling class a separate program that teaches real BJJ/Judo/Hapkido/whatever from a qualified BJJ/Judo/Hapkido/etc instructor that has a high rank in that style?  If so, yeah, then I think that's worth some extra money.  Otherwise, not worth it.

My recommendation is, first and foremost, go watch some classes at different places. See the quality of what they teach, look at their facilities, meet the teachers and other students.  If they offer an intro class, try it out. If the school isn't good, the people aren't good, then it doesn't matter how much they charge, don't go there.  If they're awesome, then see if you can afford it.


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## PlutoISaPlanet (Mar 26, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Where are you located? Some of us here might be familiar with your area or at least might be able to find a promising school via Google.



I'm in the San Marcos/Escondido, CA area but plan on moving west to Carlsbad/Encinitas in the next few years.

Thanks for everyone's responses so far. I have some work to do. One thing I'm wondering that hasn't been touched on is if that school charging monthly and limiting attendance to class sessions is the norm at most places.


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## Drose427 (Mar 26, 2015)

PlutoISaPlanet said:


> I'm in the San Marcos/Escondido, CA area but plan on moving west to Carlsbad/Encinitas in the next few years.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's responses so far. I have some work to do. One thing I'm wondering that hasn't been touched on is if that school charging monthly and limiting attendance to class sessions is the norm at most places.



It can be, our local BJJ/kickboxing school is that way. They only open if a class is scheduled. But its still 6 evenings a week.

Becuase my instructor rents space from a fitness gym, we have limited time and days for formal class(although in most cases like this, if its a goood instructor thell be more than willing to help you outside of class)

One of my associations branch schools teaches like 2 formal classes a day and teaches the stragglers whenever they can

personally, 100 bucks is a Lot for a school in general,


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## PlutoISaPlanet (Mar 26, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> It can be, our local BJJ/kickboxing school is that way. They only open if a class is scheduled. But its still 6 evenings a week.
> 
> Becuase my instructor rents space from a fitness gym, we have limited time and days for formal class(although in most cases like this, if its a goood instructor thell be more than willing to help you outside of class)
> 
> ...



I don't think that's quite the same situation. The school I interviewed holds classes 7 days a week at various skill levels but says something to the effect of: There are 6 beginner classes in the week. You can only attend 3 of them in any given week.


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## Drose427 (Mar 26, 2015)

PlutoISaPlanet said:


> I don't think that's quite the same situation. The school I interviewed holds classes 7 days a week at various skill levels but says something to the effect of: There are 6 beginner classes in the week. You can only attend 3 of them in any given week.



Oooooooooh.....that sounds pretty bad to me, i would personally cross it off the list and move on


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## WaterGal (Mar 26, 2015)

PlutoISaPlanet said:


> I'm in the San Marcos/Escondido, CA area but plan on moving west to Carlsbad/Encinitas in the next few years.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's responses so far. I have some work to do. One thing I'm wondering that hasn't been touched on is if that school charging monthly and limiting attendance to class sessions is the norm at most places.



That's pretty common where I'm at.  They'll have a membership where you can only come to X classes a week, and a more expensive one where you can go as much as you want.  We don't do that - we let come as much as they want as long as it's an appropriate class for their age/rank/style.  But what you're talking about isn't uncommon.


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

Welcome to Martial Talk.
Make sure you visit each school in your area before deciding.  Also don't forget to check area churches, and the YMCA or YWCA, often places like this can have first rate martial arts programs that are very affordable.
Best of luck!
Jon


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 27, 2015)

many schools that have a high attendance rate often allow only so many classes a week or month.  Of course they usually let you come more often if you pay more or take private classes for an extra fee.
Smaller school, if open 5 nights a week, usually let you come when you want.
Fees for lessons will vary depending on the area and economy in that area.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 27, 2015)

As others have said, rates can vary considerably according to both the general geographic area and the specific neighborhood. If the rent is high, the school will have to charge more. My school charges $100/month for unlimited training 7 days/week, but we're in an area with a low cost of living. I've seen schools in other areas charge much more than what you are looking at. Best thing to do is shop around and get an idea of what the range is in your area.

Having the school only open during class hours is pretty common.

I'm not a fan of frequent promotion tests, especially with fees, but it's a common practice in many systems. If you choose to attend a school that has those, go ahead and factor it into your monthly cost. Double-check to make sure there are not additional hidden costs - signup fees, association membership fees, equipment/uniforms that must be bought from the instructor, etc..

Unless cost is a huge factor, I would put more priority on comparing the local schools in terms of quality of training, atmosphere, and convenience.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 27, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> many schools that have a high attendance rate often allow only so many classes a week or month.




That's basically what it comes.  Smaller schools have problems with not enough people in class, bigger ones worry about having too many in a class.  Once a school gets above a certain number of members having too many people show up for a class becomes a concern.


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## dboeren (Apr 7, 2015)

A limit of classes per week shouldn't be a barrier unless you personally expect to attend more often than that.  Otherwise, it is likely there to help preserve the teacher/student ratio and maybe crack back on parents that just want to drop their kids off every day.  Also, your learning rate can be constrained by other factors, it may not actually be useful to go more times per week.

$125 month is what I pay here in Atlanta.  Yeah, it's more than the going rate 25+ years ago when I was a kid (I am also getting back into martial arts after a long absence), but that's inflation for you.  In return for paying a decent tuition, our school ha relatively small classes compared to other schools in the area which translates to more attention from instructors.  I'm more than happy to pay a bit extra for that.


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