# New article: How they hold the knife doesn't tell you if they know how to use it.



## lklawson

New CBD article:How they hold the knife doesn't tell you if they know how to use it.

"In the last few years, I've seen a lot of ink (electrons?) spilled over trying to gauge a person's skill based on how he holds the knife. 
Most of it revolves around looking at how a person holds the knife and trying to draw a conclusion about whether or not they have any training. "​ 
http://cbd.atspace.com/articles.html

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Happy-Papi

Thank you for sharing this. I totally agree with all of it. 

For me it is difficult to see a person's skill level by just basing it on how they hold their knives. 
I've been playing and doing work (chores like cutting/chopping trees, harvesting rice, and house work) with knives for a long time but I know that my skills are still very limited. For me unlike most FMA, my training consisted more on back stabbing skills than duels. It was more on where to hit, damage and effect, time, infection spread rate and what kind of tools (single, double, ice pick, tube, triangular, barbed.. metal, plastic, glass, wood, or rock... plus style, size, length and weight) to use based on temperature, location and climate, the moon's effect on injuries (best time for clotting or gushing...) which is really weird to study I guess. It was more like witchcraft more than MA, hahaha! This is why my duel skills is basically crap, lol.

Based on what you wrote, it looks like I use the Folsom Prison Style more. 
Next is the ice pick grip not because I prefer using it but because of muscle memory of the pistol plus knife hold. Sometimes I tend to hold the knife with my forefinger on top of the knife like I'm peeling an apple but I don't know why this happens??? 

For longer blades I always use the normal forward grip because it feels natural. It feels very clumsy to hold a longer blade like a machete inverted. I also trained with two bolos using inverted grip but when my buddies saw that, they all laughed and said "are you some kind of a wannabe ninja". I still can do the sinawali using two bolos but will not be using it on a fight unless I have some shuriken with me and a black mask. Better for me to have one blade and a shield than two blades. 

I knew some practitioners who tends to show that they have weak knife skills but the truth is that they are very good. Some of them will even drop their knives and act stupid, then their back-up knife come to work. I go more for the aura or the feeling if the guy is just bluffing or will be committing to his attack. I've seen guys who handles knives very good but won't commit and guys who seems to look very afraid but goes for it. 

Skilled or not, an opponent with a knife is always a threat.


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## Cyriacus

Ill add something. How you hold a knife can have as much to do with how youre storing it, and how you hide it. You could have a knife reverse grip for no reason other than so you can palm it up behind your arm. Or hammer grip so you can hold it behind your leg. Or it could be cross-drawn, and you just pulled it out ice-pick style. Or you could draw it straight and just end up with it hammer grip.

Its all too common to overthink it. Furthermore, 'how to use a knife' from the antagonists point of view is easy. Stab repeatedly. More refined versions of that might indicate nothing more than the antagonist googling it.


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## lklawson

Happy-Papi said:


> I've been playing and doing work (chores like cutting/chopping trees, harvesting rice, and house work) with knives for a long time but I know that my skills are still very limited.


A lot of people don't realize how useful this is.  While such "training" is informal, it provides an intimate knowledge of the various blades and their capabilities.  Just because a Chef isn't a Martial Artist doesn't mean he doesn't know how to take me apart piecemeal with a knife!



> Skilled or not, an opponent with a knife is always a threat.


Say it loud, brutha!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Happy-Papi

http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/holdtheknife/holdtheknife.html

Please try this if you have problems opening the link.


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## elder999

SImplest of all, really, if one is capable of "processing" under the circumstances (I am, others are, many are *not* ):

The way the knife is held *does* tell you which directions of attack are available to your assailant with their current grip...somewhat useful information in certain stages of things, if you're capable of processing it.......but if you're capable of processing  that information, then, pretty generally, the guy with the knife might just be at a disadvantage, and not even know it.....


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## lklawson

elder999 said:


> The way the knife is held *does* tell you which directions of attack are available to your assailant with their current grip...


Of course.   That is one of the "messages" I was talking about.

Peace favor your sword, 
Kirk (mobile)


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## jks9199

elder999 said:


> but if you're capable of processing that information, then, pretty generally, the guy with the knife might just be at a disadvantage, and not even know it.....



Yeah... that guy just might be finding himself at a slight disadvantage!  LOL


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## MJS

Nice article!   Thanks for posting.  I too, have heard alot of the 'myths' of how the blade is held.  IMHO, and as someone else said, it's difficult, and wrong, to assume that how someone is holding the blade, determines skill level.  When I do blade work with my teachers, we'll use a variety of grips.  And I agree with HP....anyone with a knife should be considered a threat.


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## Mark Jacobs

Article makes some good points. On the same topic but from a slightly different perspective, this may be of interest:

http://writingfighting.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/get-a-grip/


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## SuitableScroll

I've seen way to many variations on how someone holds a knife to really ever try and guestimate someone's skill by how they hold the knife. They might even be holding it in a position that makes them look like they don't what they're doing on purpose! Besides that, if someone has enough training holding a knife in an absurd position, it doesn't really matter that its an absurd position, what matters is that they are skilled using that hold on the knife. Personally I have trained fighting with knives in particularly retarded looking grips so that in case I ever had to grab one quickly and I did it wrong I was prepared to use it anyways. So it all really comes down to the persons training and in my opinion you can never really tell someone's skill by the way they hold their knife.


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## lklawson

Mark Jacobs said:


> Article makes some good points. On the same topic but from a slightly different perspective, this may be of interest:
> 
> http://writingfighting.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/get-a-grip/


That is a decent article. However, he does make a few errors in my opinion. Most notably, I think that he forgets how the width of the blade affect the ability to inflict injury during a stab. There are many historical accounts which cannot be ignored in which a narrow blade fails to disable an opponent. Jim Bowie, notably, took a sword cane in the lung and survive to use a knife to kill his opponent.

Further, I believe he underestimates how easy it is to perform a deep thrust using the forward grip.

I do agree, however, that it is well thought out and worth a read.

The favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Cyriacus

"For example, many folding knives come with clips on them that allow them  to attach to the inside of a pocket or waistband from which they can be  quickly drawn. But the position the hand will be in when it draws these  knives will usually allow only for a quick opening and deployment of  the knife in a forward grip."

I have a few qualms with that. For me, a folder clipped to my belt or pants is harder to get to because i have to clear my shirt first. If i wanted to deploy a knife quickly id get a fixed blade and a secure sheath. From there, yeah, its easier to open in a forward grip, but that assumes you didnt open it in advance and slide it between your belt and your body. It assumes the weapon is closed.

Lastly,
"If you are attempting to draw a folding knife while under attack (a  very difficult prospect to begin with and one not easily accomplished)  trying to then somehow turn the knife so you are gripping it in a  reverse grip may be all but impossible given that you may not have the  time. And even if you do have a split second to try and reverse the grip  of the knife in the middle of a combat situation, you may be so nervous  and adrenalized, you risk fumbling the knife and dropping it.
          Of course, a far simpler answer over which grip to use is  simply to avoid fighting with a knife whenever possible. Then the grip  doesn&#8217;t matter so much."

What the ****?
So basically hes discrediting folders because you cant use his preferred grip? What is that? And avoid fighting with a knife because you cant get your precious reversed grip? Next time, just start the article with "Dont use a knife, because you might not be able to hold it right! Also, holding knives forward has TOTALLY never been used to kill people. Nope. *plugs fingers in ears*"

I think i require coffee.

This article was interesting as far as i could sit here and learn all the reasons why i disagree with it.


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## Koshiki

Huh. Yeah, but if I see a guy dancing towards me in a light, mobile stance, with hand held veins in right across the major throughways of his neck, his other hand holding a knife close to his chest, centered with a forward grip, blade perpendicular to the floor....

No, I'm not going to judge his skill level, perse, but there are a few basic positions which are in no way intuitive to assume, which pretty much no one would just "happen" to use, and which are fairly unique to and descriptive of a certain style of training. And, if a guy LOOKS like he has, say, some Kali training, I'm going to be running twice as fast as if he looked like he learned his knife skills from The Shining. And in either case, I'd be running pretty fast!


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## cloud dancing

old schoool{1920's-1970's} used the blade up style.Writing about his travels and fights/was merchant marine, lLamour always claimed that when he saw grip with blade up he knew it was a professional fighter.not that it would stop him from taking it away but swiping the guts sliding upwards and holding the inner arms as targets.most military hold blade edge down and forward.Tuccker taught me to hold  onefinger  in front of the crosspiece.to maintain grip and strike.Strikes should be straight with no rotation of the blade.use to stab and kill only. but then he had multiple kills in combat. elite teams ahve huge hours learning to use the blade.


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## Juany118

elder999 said:


> SImplest of all, really, if one is capable of "processing" under the circumstances (I am, others are, many are *not* ):
> 
> The way the knife is held *does* tell you which directions of attack are available to your assailant with their current grip...somewhat useful information in certain stages of things, if you're capable of processing it.......but if you're capable of processing  that information, then, pretty generally, the guy with the knife might just be at a disadvantage, and not even know it.....



A bit of a necro (well a lot of a necro  ) but you can do more things than attack.  One of the things I like about the reverse grip is what I have done irl using flashlights like this...Stinger® Series - Stinger® LED | Streamlight and in training with training knifes. You can use it for control as it creates an angle with your forearm.  This control then can provide an opening, with the knife, for a back handed stab or slash.  I think that, sometimes, people become preoccupied with stabbing and slashing with a knife.  Yes this is what the knife was designed for, but you can do so much more with the weapon if you know how to use it (and the knife handle is designed appropriately to provide for better retention.  Karambit style handles are ideal for this kind of work imo).

So back to the point.  You can be looking at someone holding a knife in their right hand saying "these are his most practical avenues of attack" but if you are not aware be wondering where all of the leverage is coming on that is forcing an arm in a direction you don't want it to go, and now there is an opening for whatever.


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## Charlemagne

Juany118 said:


> A bit of a necro (well a lot of a necro  ) but you can do more things than attack.  One of the things I like about the reverse grip is what I have done irl using flashlights like this...Stinger® Series - Stinger® LED | Streamlight and in training with training knifes. You can use it for control as it creates an angle with your forearm.  This control then can provide an opening, with the knife, for a back handed stab or slash.  I think that, sometimes, people become preoccupied with stabbing and slashing with a knife.  Yes this is what the knife was designed for, but you can do so much more with the weapon if you know how to use it (and the knife handle is designed appropriately to provide for better retention.  Karambit style handles are ideal for this kind of work imo).
> 
> So back to the point.  You can be looking at someone holding a knife in their right hand saying "these are his most practical avenues of attack" but if you are not aware be wondering where all of the leverage is coming on that is forcing an arm in a direction you don't want it to go, and now there is an opening for whatever.



Necromancer


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## Juany118

Charlemagne said:


> Necromancer



Well I don't think my resurrection led to " After having been flogged to death the thread may have been deceased for many years, and bringing it back may have scant relevance to the current topic..." 

I wasn't here when the thread was created and do actually find the topic interesting because, imo, the art of the blade is a lot more complicated than popular culture allows for. 

So I think this pic more embodies the necromancer in me here...


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## Charlemagne

Juany118 said:


> Well I don't think my resurrection led to " After having been flogged to death the thread may have been deceased for many years, and bringing it back may have scant relevance to the current topic..."



No worries.  I have been guilty of plenty of thread necromancy on a variety of forums over the years.  I just love that website and you gave me an excuse.


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## Juany118

Charlemagne said:


> No worries.  I have been guilty of plenty of thread necromancy on a variety of forums over the years.  I just love that website and you gave me an excuse.



Oh I know  .  I just have found this topic an "interesting" one because I think both have their place and the universal "this is better than that" has never tracked with me.


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## elder999

Juany118 said:


> A bit of a necro (well a lot of a necro  ) but you can do more things than attack.  One of the things I like about the reverse grip is what I have done irl using flashlights like this...Stinger® Series - Stinger® LED | Streamlight and in training with training knifes. You can use it for control as it creates an angle with your forearm.  This control then can provide an opening, with the knife, for a back handed stab or slash.  I think that, sometimes, people become preoccupied with stabbing and slashing with a knife.  Yes this is what the knife was designed for, but you can do so much more with the weapon if you know how to use it (and the knife handle is designed appropriately to provide for better retention.  Karambit style handles are ideal for this kind of work imo).
> 
> So back to the point.  You can be looking at someone holding a knife in their right hand saying "these are his most practical avenues of attack" but if you are not aware be wondering where all of the leverage is coming on that is forcing an arm in a direction you don't want it to go, and now there is an opening for whatever.


Can't really get to that leverage point without attacking, so the point is moot.....

.....not just a necro, but a necrofail!


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## Charlemagne

elder999 said:


> Can't really get to that leverage point without attacking, so the point is moot.....
> 
> .....not just a necro, but a necrofail!



Not true.  One can easily use an object such as a tactical flashlight, palm stick, or even another knife to get to that leverage point in a counter-offensive/defensive fashion.  It certainly can be performed coming in if the person you are attacking is capable of protecting themselves from the proper angle of attack, but this is not the only way it can be done.  This is particularly true if the person attacking you has bridging footwork and is able to close the distance with you faster than you are able to get out.  This is hugely important, and one major reason that we work on the ability to keep long range and only close when _we_ want to in PTK-SMF.  





 Go to the 1 minute mark in the above video and switch the grip from sak sak (hammer) to pikal (ice pick) and you can execute that tap counter offensively and get the leverage being discussed above.  





 Go to the 1:15 or so mark and you can see it done with empty hands, but again any object could be held in the pikal position to get the leverage he is referring to.


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## elder999

Charlemagne said:


> Not true.  One can easily use an object such as a tactical flashlight, palm stick, or even another knife to get to that leverage point in a counter-offensive/defensive fashion.  It certainly can be performed coming in if the person you are attacking is capable of protecting themselves from the proper angle of attack, but this is not the only way it can be done.  This is particularly true if the person attacking you has bridging footwork and is able to close the distance with you faster than you are able to get out.  This is hugely important, and one major reason that we work on the ability to keep long range and only close when _we_ want to in PTK-SMF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go to the 1 minute mark in the above video and switch the grip from sak sak (hammer) to pikal (ice pick) and you can execute that tap counter offensively and get the leverage being discussed above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go to the 1:15 or so mark and you can see it done with empty hands, but again any object could be held in the pikal position to get the leverage he is referring to.



Still missing the point-the object has to be moved towards the person.....that's an "attack."


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## Charlemagne

elder999 said:


> Still missing the point-the object has to be moved towards the person.....that's an "attack."



No, I'm not missing the point.  In a block, the object moves towards the person as well, and is executed for the purpose of self-protection.  A knife tap, performed properly, is indeed an attack on the person's arm, but again, is performed for the purpose of self-protection.  In other words, if you were not being attacked by someone, there would be no reason to perform the tap, or a block, in the first place.


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## JP3

I would imagine there are as many ways to hold a knife and use it "correctly" as there are styles of knife-fighting, right?

So, if you didn't know them all.... how would you know if the other guy is a novice or deadly-superior awesome in his personal skillset .... just because of how he holds one?


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## Charlemagne

JP3 said:


> I would imagine there are as many ways to hold a knife and use it "correctly" as there are styles of knife-fighting, right?
> 
> So, if you didn't know them all.... how would you know if the other guy is a novice or deadly-superior awesome in his personal skillset .... just because of how he holds one?



If you stop and think about it, a knife has a blade and a handle.  That blade can be protruding from the thumb and forefinger side of the hand, ala a hammer grip, referred to in FMA as sak sak;





or it can be held with the blade protruding from the pinky finger side of the hand, as in an ice pick grip, referred to in FMA as pikal. 





From there, the blade can be facing forward or backwards, and I have never seen anyone hold the blade facing up in a hammer grip, so regardless of the fact that it can be done, it really isn't a commonly used grip in martial arts which emphasize the knife.  So that makes three grips there. 

If you add a variation, such as a sabre grip, then you have a legit four options. 






There are also things such as "pinch grips", but they are really used by chefs, not in martial arts. 





Even if we take stylistic variations into account, we see that they are really just variations on a theme.






The knife is not a complicated piece of machinery, and as such, there really only a few legitimate ways of holding it for martial purposes.


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## elder999

Charlemagne said:


> If you stop and think about it,


You'll die.


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## Juany118

elder999 said:


> Can't really get to that leverage point without attacking, so the point is moot.....
> 
> .....not just a necro, but a necrofail!



Maybe it's the WC in me but I see trapping and control like that as more a "defense" maneuver that opens for an attack.


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## Tez3




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## lklawson

Charlemagne said:


> If you add a variation, such as a sabre grip, then you have a legit four options.


In a classic Sabre Grip, the index finger, indeed all fingers, would be behind the guard.  A lot of Classical Fencers I know would be having a fit over it.    This type of grip is intended to allow dexterous movement from the wrist and gains its name from the dueling sabres known for protective shell guards.

With a knife as short as in the picture, it kinda doesn't matter if the index finger is in front of the guard because there's not enough blade for blade-to-blade parries, but as the size of the blade grows, the less sense it makes to have the index finger in front of the guard.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## BLACK

Speaking on knives and not sabers, and swords....
I was hacked by Torin Hill, who opened my eyes pretty wide to the mistakes I had been making for years with my grip and many misconceptions I had about using a blade to disable a threat.
Now this is strictly for me as I am not here to tell anyone how to be themselves nor am I here to knock anyone's prowess...but for me the reverse grip is useless if the blade is toward the threat because all the leverage that makes the blade useful is lost when you push...you want to do a pull up on it, not push away.  It is an intimate device that requires bad breath distances to maintain its effectiveness so you want to pull the threat in.  I also learned to make a fist on it and not leave the thumb along the spine or anywhere else other than in a fist because leverage can easily be applied so the knife is lost and the tool becomes useless.
I only use the forward hammer grip and the reverse grip with the blade towards me and the blade is always gripped with a full fist... because in my experience this has been the only effective way to insure I can address the threat properly and not fight an uphill battle on an extremely slippery source. 

Also, I  don't believe in such things as knife fighting...it is an ambush tool first and foremost and the end user is either cutting or getting cut or both.  There is no duel, no dance none of that glamorous BS... just an ugly, dirty, messy ambush that most often takes pieces of all parties involved in some way shape or form.   

I would also like to see how most of the grips out there stack up to the dish soap test.
Lather the hand in dish soap and lightly wet it to simulate bodily fluid and attempt the "techniques" with the various grips and see what happens... lots of grips fly out the window along with lots of techniques and lots of different knife styles.


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## elder999

BLACK said:


> I would also like to see how most of the grips out there stack up to the dish soap test.
> Lather the hand in dish soap and lightly wet it to simulate bodily fluid and attempt the "techniques" with the various grips and see what happens... lots of grips fly out the window along with lots of techniques and lots of different knife styles.



We used motor oil....


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## lklawson

BLACK said:


> I would also like to see how most of the grips out there stack up to the dish soap test.
> Lather the hand in dish soap and lightly wet it to simulate bodily fluid and attempt the "techniques" with the various grips and see what happens... lots of grips fly out the window along with lots of techniques and lots of different knife styles.


No offense, but that's a terrible simulator for blood or sweat.

Why bother?  Both blood and sweat are easy to get.  Slightly salty water slightly damping the hand will do sweat and a trip to the meat counter and a cheap steak will get you the blood.

Using actual lubricants gives an unrealistic result.  There's a reason that all those various grips were historically used and survived.  If they were as vulnerable to slipping around as your test would imply, they wouldn't have been employed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## elder999

lklawson said:


> No offense, but that's a terrible simulator for blood or sweat.
> 
> Why bother?  Both blood and sweat are easy to get.  Slightly salty water slightly damping the hand will do sweat and a trip to the meat counter and a cheap steak will get you the blood.
> 
> Using actual lubricants gives an unrealistic result.  There's a reason that all those various grips were historically used and survived.  If they were as vulnerable to slipping around as your test would imply, they wouldn't have been employed.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Two things really-if you can hold onto a knife with oil on your hands, you can hold onto one with blood..until the blood dries and is less of a problem.

Oil doesn't dry-makes it more suitable for prolonged training.

The other being that it isn't actually blood-in Asian Buddhist and Muslim traditions, oil is used as obtaining blood is frowned upon (Buddhist) and "playing" with blood is forbidden (Muslim).....


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## drop bear

lklawson said:


> No offense, but that's a terrible simulator for blood or sweat.
> 
> Why bother?  Both blood and sweat are easy to get.  Slightly salty water slightly damping the hand will do sweat and a trip to the meat counter and a cheap steak will get you the blood.
> 
> Using actual lubricants gives an unrealistic result.  There's a reason that all those various grips were historically used and survived.  If they were as vulnerable to slipping around as your test would imply, they wouldn't have been employed.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



If praying to the sun god didn't make the crops grow. Then people wouldn't have done it?


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## Red Sun

BLACK said:


> Also, I  don't believe in such things as knife fighting...it is an ambush tool first and foremost and the end user is either cutting or getting cut or both.  There is no duel, no dance none of that glamorous BS... just an ugly, dirty, messy ambush that most often takes pieces of all parties involved in some way shape or form.























These guys didn't seem to get the memo


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## lklawson

drop bear said:


> If praying to the sun god didn't make the crops grow. Then people wouldn't have done it?


Non sequitur.


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## lklawson

elder999 said:


> Two things really-if you can hold onto a knife with oil on your hands, you can hold onto one with blood..until the blood dries and is less of a problem.


Yes, I understand the premise.  I'm not denying that.  What I'm suggesting is that this is a worst-case which happens so rarely that it allows the other grips in question to remain viable.



> The other being that it isn't actually blood-in Asian Buddhist and Muslim traditions, oil is used as obtaining blood is frowned upon (Buddhist) and "playing" with blood is forbidden (Muslim).....


Fascinating.  Thank you for including social perspectives.  I've long maintained that all martial arts, including knife arts, evolve in the context of their environment which includes social restrictions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Red Sun said:


> These guys didn't seem to get the memo


Improvised weapons, ice-pick grips, off-hand arms wrapped with coats and used to defend/parry/whip, an umbrella and a stick, use of environmental barriers, in-and-out movements, both committed attacks and probing attacks, strikingly few intercepting/disarming/"defanging" techniques... 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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