# Hwa Rang Do...Basic Stick fighting for combat...



## GAB (Dec 4, 2004)

Any one read this by Michael D. Echanis?

Regards, Gary


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## shesulsa (Dec 4, 2004)

Yes.  Have you?  I'm curious to hear others opinions on the book.

 Michael Echanis wrote a book on knife fighting as well and another "Black Book."


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## GAB (Dec 4, 2004)

Hi,

Yes, I have the book. It is a good one for the basics, he is doing pretty basic stuff at the front and it gets better and better as you go through it and then along comes the cane arts by his Master. SGM of Hwa Rang Do Joo Bang Lee.

I think it is appropriate for the time frame it was made...70s. Still good stuff today. 
Apparently he died (Michael) while in Nicaragua in 1978. (???)

Was a young man cut down in his prime. Sad. 
I see him in a uniform and I am  (thinking to myself) I am not sure I believe this (his hair cut etc. beard) uniform looks like he slept in it. 
When we were in the field sure, but when you got back, you cleaned up, starched up and sharpened up. That is why I am asking.

Good information I believe. If you can find one of Robert Koga's (LAPD Self Defense instructer, late 60's early 70's) early books you will see a lot of this technique also. Circa 1970.

Robert Koga's books of recent are different because of the changes that have come in todays political arena,  because some think the Police are/were pretty brutal in those days gone by. 

When I was on the Job we went everywhere, now they say there are areas police won't go because of the problems. 

In my opinion that is not good, get the National Guard along with the Police and clean um out. 

Just like in Iraq, if it is good enough there to start Democracy. Then it is OK for it to continue in the land it started. Like they say, if good people don't do something then evil prevails, sorry I believe in the USA. The good guys are the men and women in blue.

Back to the thread. I recommend the book for History sake if nothing else on how and where they have changed in the teaching.

Regards, Gary


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## shesulsa (Dec 4, 2004)

Interesting feedback.  Thanks, Gary.

 I'm curious to know if any of the Arnisadors on this board have seen this book and what they have to say about it as well.


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## dohap (Dec 9, 2004)

I have all 3 books by Echanis.
My opinion: nothing special, also the black one. I've written more about my opinion in other thread on this forum.
I like "stick" book the most, but rather from hystorical point of view.
"Green" is as You know mostly one set from "half-black".
Regards


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## shesulsa (Dec 9, 2004)

Hello, dohap!  I'm looking forward to an English version of your website soon!

 Farang,

 Georgia


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## dohap (Dec 10, 2004)

soon  
It needs a lot of updating and will be finally only in English.


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## shesulsa (Dec 10, 2004)

dohap said:
			
		

> "Green" is as You know mostly one set from "half-black".
> Regards


 Hoshin Dan Gum Sul, yes!


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## shesulsa (Dec 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Robert Koga's books of recent are different because of the changes that have come in todays political arena, because some think the Police are/were pretty brutal in those days gone by.
> 
> Back to the thread. I recommend the book for History sake if nothing else on how and where they have changed in the teaching.
> 
> Regards, Gary


 Thanks for posting this, Gary.  I have not had (nor will I have very soon) the opportunity to peruse Mr. Koga's books.  Could you please outline some specific differences that are important in your view?

 Thanks.


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## GAB (Dec 15, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting this, Gary. I have not had (nor will I have very soon) the opportunity to peruse Mr. Koga's books. Could you please outline some specific differences that are important in your view?
> 
> Thanks.


Hi,

Wondering what you would like to discuss? I did go back and read some interesting thoughts on a prior thread that you were involved in.

Here are a few thoughts, if you want to pursue this.

Regarding the importance to political agenda? 

Or the lack of care our society has shown for the victims? 

Or the community/ist concern for the care of the criminal in todays confused society???

Or is it better we have gone the way we have, or have we gone to far regarding the right of the criminal vs the victim and society it's self.

The cost to the cities for the injuries that were brought on by the police because of the criminal, at the time of the alleged brutal occurances. 

Or because of bad case law on both sides?

Is it not right to deal out street Justice since the courts feel it is OK for the criminal to wage war on our society with terrorist activity.

Yet we (our society) can wage war on other societies for terrorisim, and have to condone it in our own society by our citizens...

Just a few thoughts about this thread?

Regards, Gary


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## shesulsa (Dec 15, 2004)

LOL - well, you created the thread, so pick a place to start and let's do it.  Just curious - which thread were you referencing above?  I would like to look at it for a frame of reference.

 When you posed the discussion points as questions above, were you referencing the evolution of stick fighting as part of the martial arts curriculums in America?  The demise of Michael Echanis?  The controversy over the authenticity of representation in that book and his others?  The implications of employing the stick in law enforcement situations, specifically in LAPD incidences or nationwide?

 LOL - this is wide open and I don't really know where you want to go here.  So since you started the thread, define "Go" and let's roll the dice.


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## GAB (Dec 15, 2004)

Hi:

First it was a thread that was posted on this very same person and his numerous books. It was started about 2 years ago and continued off and on.

I have to go to train for awhile But I will return...

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Dec 16, 2004)

Hi Shesulsa,

What I am saying to you is my direct knowledge and there is much variance in different departments.

Regarding the specific differences to using the stick in todays LEO from when I went on in the middle 60s.

In the earlier times we were allowed to use the stick as a tool for many things, not just self defense. Breaking windows in houses and cars, just to name a few.

The stick was used very much like shown in the book we are talking about, striking to the side of the head or to the face or neck was an acceptable thing.

Breaking collar bones, wrist or elbow was OK, hitting to the side of the knee was good, along with any location where the bone was close to the skin.
Ankle bone is one that comes to mind. 

Using the stick against the throat in a last effort was OK...If the head was the only target go for it, but you had to have a good reason.

The using of the stick in this manner was only after other lesser violent tactics were tried and failed. But you can imagine, if the officers don't want to scuffle and they can take a person out with the above mentioned strikes or chokes and reduce their chance of injury.

Kicks were acceptable, to the groin or the stomach, knee, head or face also....

It was to come to an end with the use of P24 Baton (Tong fa) new type of training. But it did not just stop completly. Case law and big pay outs by the city, started to change the way things were being done.

In the middle 70s sap gloves and saps started to get a bad reputation.
They were taken out of policy and no longer permitted. 

The heavy flash lights are now something that will be in the past, I just read recently.

All the above mentioned strikes and hits are pretty much out...

Hitting to the meater parts of the body, arms legs etc. no more striking to the throat or head or face...

I would say that it still happens (neck strikes or wrist or ankle) but you have better be able to justify it.

Things have really changed if you are not in the strike force part of the police. Such as Metro, Swat, or Merge, etc.

If you are in everyday contact with the citizen and are the local guy on the beat the tools have changed. Spray is used tasers are used, wait till sufficient back up even to extent of other citizens being injured, call a Sgt. make less crucial decisions etc. if you can, if you can't you run the risk of losing your job and going to jail.

I will wait for your response and then we can continue.

Regards, Gary


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## shesulsa (Dec 17, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> The stick was used very much like shown in the book we are talking about, striking to the side of the head or to the face or neck was an acceptable thing.
> 
> Breaking collar bones, wrist or elbow was OK, hitting to the side of the knee was good, along with any location where the bone was close to the skin.
> 
> ...


 Yes, agreed - in the interest of the rights of the perp (i.e. human rights) now you strike the center of mass (large muscle) and taking out a joint or breaking a shallow bone can be considered as potentially permanent damage and whatnot.  The extendable baton is used now rather than the stick or club, basically the same applications, though.

 There are many ways that law enforcement has changed - not sure about hand-to-hand military combat, though, that's not my field personally.

 I'm with you - continue.


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## GAB (Dec 17, 2004)

Hi,

So here we are in a situation where the criminal sits around and lifts weights and spends 4 years in the system. 

He gets out has not been reabilitated and goes out on a spree. Ususally these guys are very strong and now they are loaded on some type of drug, and the average Policeperson is supposed to control him with some kind of hold???

I am not sure if you realize that about 10% of law Enforcement officers are injured and/or killed in the line of duty each year, and about 4% do not return to the job. At least that was a stat a few years ago. I think it is very unfair to put this onto the various police. 
Just as I think it is wrong to send man and women to war and then tie their hands and not let them do the job. Ok back to the thread.

Then when this person who is the perp now gets hurt and his or her rights are violated they reap major benefits and are breaking the back of the country.
The costs to the cities are millions, the persons who end up paying are your decent law abiding citizen in extra taxes and laws that make it harder to conform on a yearly bases. 

It is a very bad policy and will destroy our culture as we know it.

I believe the true terrorist is the criminal in our own society, I believe unless something is done to cut crime and get the cities and nation to see this we are going to be doomed from within.

So how does this relate to the book. I have gotten away from that for a brief moment and will say more later on the reason I think we need to go back to less rights for the criminal.

Regards, Gary


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 18, 2004)

GAB, 
As I do agree with some of the things in your post I believe it would be more well suited in the locker room. The thread is on basic stick fighting and if you would like to interact on the topic of apprehension of criminals I would be more than happy to discuss something with you there.


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## GAB (Dec 19, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> GAB,
> As I do agree with some of the things in your post I believe it would be more well suited in the locker room. The thread is on basic stick fighting and if you would like to interact on the topic of apprehension of criminals I would be more than happy to discuss something with you there.


Hi, Yes I did stray and thanks, I will look for the subject in that area.

Real quick on stick work. What is acceptable in todays application is just that and what was acceptable in years gone past is just that. 

The stick is no more or no less than a tool to get a job done, as long as you have policy, then it is the guide line and you should try and train and stay in shape so that you are as best qualified as you can be.

When we fail to make the changes is when you need to look at what and where you are going and for what reason you want to defy the policy set forth. 

Like I said in the original post I think it is a good book for the time frame.

As I do more FMA I see many avenues that were not available in days gone by, there really are a lot of different applications that take a little more training, then I think it gives the persons responsible to do the job a better perspective.

Regards, Gary


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## shesulsa (Dec 20, 2004)

Okay, I see where you're going now.

 You're really talking about LEO applications of stick / EB use and how they've changed since the time the Echanis books were published.

  I haven't studied any FMAs or Escrima or Arnis _in and of itself_ (i.e. as a separate art form), only that which we learn in You-Know-What.

  Two questions:

 1. In regards to the books you reference as good historical reference (I assume you mean as it applies to the evolution of stick fighting), do you think they had or still have applications in H2H and CQC for military studies, and...

  2.  Could you expand, please, on newer FMA options you find more suitable to LEO applications and/or H2H and CQC?


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## GAB (Dec 22, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Okay, I see where you're going now.
> 
> You're really talking about LEO applications of stick / EB use and how they've changed since the time the Echanis books were published.
> 
> ...


 
Hi,

I have been talking to my son about this and he feels like I do, that one of the premire Hand to Hand fighters are the Minnisoto Kali group, headed by Rick Faye. Basically it is an extension of Guro Dan Inosanto Kali. They teach mostly FMA and are very well rounded. Stick, knife and empty hand.

When using the stick there is the short, medium and long. All are specific.
There is the all around stick about 28" similar to the Nightstick of LEO use and of course the Tongfa or P24. I prefer the 28" for most applications (straight).

Robert Koga, still teach's the straight stick. I would not argue with the man.

As far as the Military is concerned they can get away with more Killing arts then your local PD's can, we train in all of it. 
I would say about 50% of the knife art and what I call killing, you have to go with the self defense policy in the dept you are working.

If we are talking no weapons involved. H2H, there are many many applications in the FMA arts that fit well with LEO.

I firmly believe the time for weapons other then hand to hand (fist,feet) is all up to the officer who is in the battle. If the time has come to resort to that then it is something that needs to be done.

Taking a baton to someone is a large responsibility, the time to do it is crucial for the sake of the officer and others. The same applies to the handgun.
Control is the issue here, maintain control and never allow it to be taken away from you.

I believe there is more leaway with the spray and the taser (neither was avaliable when I was a LEO.

We used the Bar arm and choke holds with impunity, that led to many court decisions and where we are now with numerous other devices to restrain.

It all falls back on training and the officers responsibility to stay in shape.

Keep up with the rules of the department and training with the various tools at hand.

The more you train the more confident you are, projecting strength and humbleness is all part of the game. 

Regards, Gary


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