# Why does it take years to learn self-defense when a fight is less than 12 seconds?



## still learning (Jan 30, 2006)

Hello, Many people believe it takes a long to time to learn self-defense and yet a fight is only seconds long.

Is our training practical and can a person who wants to learn to protect themselves have to train for years and years?

Think about how many moves and tarkets will we need to learn to stop an attacker?  You will want to end it fast and escape alive?  How long will it learn to do this?  What do you share we your family and friends who don't train but want to know what they can do to protect themselves?

Look and study real street fights and watch real fights and see what happens in most of them, because that is how it will be for YOU!  never the same each time and NO rules, totally chaos.

Are you prepare for this?   .....only seconds to go...........Aloha


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## Cujo (Jan 30, 2006)

I think it all depends on who you are fighting. If it is an out of shape drunk with no training thats one thing but, if it's a trained fighter with a bad attitude, that can be a whole differant story. Police officers recieve a certain amount of DT training but I think that you must constantly train so that you are prepared for the worst case situations. Most of the fights that I see as a cop involve drunks throwing "haymakers". Not a real problem for someone with proper training, however, having said that, You never know what your opponent is capable of and should continue to train so as to be ready to defend yourself against someone who actually knows what he is doing. Bruce Lee said it best. "It is better to know and not need than to need and not know".

Pax
Cujo


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## MA-Caver (Jan 30, 2006)

Because : " There's no such thing as a fair fight!" 
Years and years of training hone your body, mind and spirit together to effectively end the fight as soon as it's started. I've seen fights that last a few seconds and I've seen them last for as long as an hour. 
Personally I'd rather be in one that last a few seconds because I really don't like hurting nor hurting someone. But being able to hit that one area which will incapaciate your opponent/antagonist and put them out of their fighting mode/mood/whatever is a lot better than dragging it out. 
Also think about others as well. Bystanders or your significant other or your date, they could get hurt (accidently) in the long fight, because it isn't going to stay in one place. 
Thus, train long and train hard to end it all quick as possible. 

Remember the Oath of Peace. 

:asian:


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 30, 2006)

A song takes five minutes to play...years to learn how to play


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## Adept (Jan 30, 2006)

I think part of the reason it can take so long to learn over-all self defense techniques, is that we have to un-learn years and years worth of life experience before we can start learning again.

We've learned, through our experiences, that we shouldn't hurt people, that we are safe at home and in the street, that we can be in condition white all day and night long and never have a problem.

The mindset can be the biggest thing to change.

In addition, the actual physical techniques don't take too long to learn. Six weeks with a dedicated student will yeild remarkable results. But he won't remember them on the street if he doesn't keep on training them. The length of training isn't so much about _getting_ sharp as _staying_ sharp.


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2006)

Cujo said:
			
		

> I think it all depends on who you are fighting. If it is an out of shape drunk with no training thats one thing but, if it's a trained fighter with a bad attitude, that can be a whole differant story. Police officers recieve a certain amount of DT training but I think that you must constantly train so that you are prepared for the worst case situations. Most of the fights that I see as a cop involve drunks throwing "haymakers". Not a real problem for someone with proper training, however, having said that, You never know what your opponent is capable of and should continue to train so as to be ready to defend yourself against someone who actually knows what he is doing. Bruce Lee said it best. "It is better to know and not need than to need and not know".
> 
> Pax
> Cujo


 
Couldn't have said it any better..Someone with nothing to lose will throw anything they have in their arsenal at you, you must be prepaired to deal with whatever..


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## Grenadier (Jan 30, 2006)

When push comes to shove, most likely, someone is going to default to his consistent level of training, instead of "rising to the occasion."  

It takes years to build up someone so that he can train consistently hard on a regular basis.


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## Danny T (Jan 30, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Many people believe it takes a long to time to learn self-defense and yet a fight is only seconds long.
> 
> Is our training practical and can a person who wants to learn to protect themselves have to train for years and years?
> 
> ...


 
This has been discussed several times. First are you asking about Self-Defense, Fighting, or Martial Art? There are some major differences.

Self-Defense is quite simple, direct, efficient and takes very little time to learn. Any good instructor can teach excellent self-defense techniques in a few hours and the participant should be able to apply them after only a few attempts. 

Fighting takes a bit more time however, fighting isn't self-defense. Fighting is participating, self-defense isn't. Fighting is more like dueling, standing toe to toe against another fighter. Self-defense is stopping the other person from hurting you and getting away or simply getting away and that doesn't take a long time to learn.

Martial art takes the longest and for many is a life long endeavor but martial art is not self-defense either.

Danny Terrell


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## Bigshadow (Jan 30, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Many people believe it takes a long to time to learn self-defense and yet a fight is only seconds long.
> 
> Is our training practical and can a person who wants to learn to protect themselves have to train for years and years?
> 
> ...



In the sense of Self Defense, not sport.

Because you will fight how you train!   In a real confrontation, there is no time to THINK.  Things just happen!  It takes a long time for the body to do what it needs to do, without conscious thought.  If you have to *think* about which technique you need to use, you are already too late (ie, possibly dead)!


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## Gemini (Jan 30, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> In the sense of Self Defense, not sport.
> 
> Because you will fight how you train! In a real confrontation, there is no time to THINK. Things just happen! It takes a long time for the body to do what it needs to do, without conscious thought. If you have to *think* about which technique you need to use, you are already too late (ie, possibly dead)!


 
Good statement. (Actually, they've all be good statements.) Because every conflict is different, it's an advantage to know how to deal with as many scenarios as possible. 

Body memory. For every action, there's a reaction. If someone moves on you a certain way, you'll (through years of training) respond a certain way. 
Mind control. Again, something that takes a great deal of practice. Still learning mentioned "chaos". Not if you are capable of controling the situation, it isn't. Though there are no gaurantee's, you can stack the odds in your favor.
Awareness. Know how to identify a potentially threatening person/place/thing and avoid it before it takes shape.


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## still learning (Jan 30, 2006)

Hello, If you were in a real fight for your life today?  How long of training do you think you need to survive this fight?

against one or two or more people?

The point is this?  Must we train for years.....or can we learn to survive by practiceing a few self-defense skills that can be learn and use in a very few hours of training and practice?

Is your training giving the skills to use.....NOW? and tommorrow? or do you need more years of training? ......

something to think about in your classes............Aloha


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## Carol (Jan 30, 2006)

It would definitely take years for me to be able to survive an actual fight.  Should I need my skills, I would focus more on distracting and being able to escape.

Am I getting the skills?  Slowly.  But I'm getting more than that, too.  I'm learning an art.  I'm getting in better shape.  I'm becoming more disciplined.  My mind is becomng more focused.

I can't say I have a specific end result (fighting) in mind.  I'm more interested in seeing just how far I can go with what I'm doing.


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## still learning (Jan 30, 2006)

Hello, It will not take years to learn how to fight back?  If someone try to attack  you or rape you today?  What will you do?  Wait till you get more years of training.....again the point is there are things one can learn today and use today to fight back?

Why is your system not teaching you these things?  Most people who train for years and years will tell you they are not ready?  Why? ...simple they have not train for real fighting!

The martial arts have not forcus on real self-defense and real fighting!  Most people believe Karate style will work on the streets.....ever see people fight like in class on the streets?

My years in Shotokan give me no confidence for street fighting...only against other students. Yet real fighting is different....wait till you get in a real fight......then you will understanding how good your training has been for you.......................Good luck.............Aloha


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## tradrockrat (Jan 30, 2006)

I used to teach self defense classes at a community college.  The stress was on SELF DEFENSE, not martial arts OR fighting.  The techniques were designed to be simple, direct, and place an emphasis on self preservation, evasion and brutal attacks to mobility and vital targets.  The students were meeting with me twice a week for 75 minutes for 8 weeks.  I have testimonies from two of my former students stating that tactics taught to them in my class saved them from serious injury.  One woman actually fought off her abusive boyfriend.  None of my students were martial artists, and few of them were "fighters" of any sort, but they knew (because I stressed it over and over)  that without continued training on their own after the class ended, they were wasting their time.  Muscle memory is as important as the "attitude adjustment" of mental conditioning, and you just *can not* teach your body adequately in a few hours of training.


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## tradrockrat (Jan 30, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, It will not take years to learn how to fight back? If someone try to attack you or rape you today? What will you do? Wait till you get more years of training.....again the point is there are things one can learn today and use today to fight back?




I can teach you techniques today that will work next week, but they won't work next month if you never practice them.  That's the main point I'd like to make.  The one time lesson garanteed to make you invincible is a myth - it doesn't exist because humans don't function that way.


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## still learning (Jan 30, 2006)

Hello, The point is this.....Martial arts have miss the point of fighting back and self-defense.

Your training should be simple and workable.....and not take years to learn!

Easy to remember and anyone can do it!   

If kata really was effective every sports would have people doing some form of kata to match there sport.

Tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, basketball, football, ruby,mountain climbing, hockey, and etc..... Aloha


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## tradrockrat (Jan 30, 2006)

I'ver never personally met anyone who teaches Katas in self defense classes.  They teach them in Martial ARTS classes - because it's an art.


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## jdinca (Jan 30, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, If you were in a real fight for your life today? How long of training do you think you need to survive this fight?
> 
> against one or two or more people?
> 
> ...


 
Yes, you can teach someone a few techniques and their chances of survival will be better. What you cannot teach them in a few hours is mental discipline and emotional self control. Two very important skills that can make the difference between avoiding a confrontation in the first place, or being right in the middle of one. If found in the middle of one, the ability to keep your wits about you can mean the difference of getting out of the situation, or becoming a victim. Those skills take years to develop and the hard work and discipline of your martial arts training is a vehicle to help you achieve those goals. In the process, you become much more physically adept at defending yourself, again increasing your chances of survival.


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## Grenadier (Jan 31, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> If kata really was effective every sports would have people doing some form of kata to match there sport.
> 
> Tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, basketball, football, ruby,mountain climbing, hockey, and etc..... Aloha


 
In a way, those sports mentioned above have their own kata.  Many times, a tennis player, will take practice swings, especially when going through his own serve motions (same set of motions each time).  Other times, he may have a set pattern of shot placements that he uses that are surefire winners.  

Some basketball players will continually practice their driving moves, attacking the same set of "lanes" each time, with a refined set of motions.  Same with hockey players.  

The game of football may not be too far away from highly complex kata, since all of these plays require each of the players to be part of a set of routines.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 31, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, It will not take years to learn how to fight back?  If someone try to attack  you or rape you today?  What will you do?  Wait till you get more years of training.....again the point is there are things one can learn today and use today to fight back?


Even an untrained person can fight back.  Even the most meek and untrained will fight back when put in certain circumstances.  Does that mean they will survive?  I dunno.  Maybe.  Does that mean they have the skills to be the most effective and efficient with their movement and technique so they don't put themselves in an ever worsening situation?  Probably not.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 31, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Easy to remember and anyone can do it!


Problem is... There isn't time to 'remember' in a situation.  No-think.. DO!



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> If kata really was effective every sports would have people doing some form of kata to match there sport.
> 
> Tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, basketball, football, ruby,mountain climbing, hockey, and etc..... Aloha


Well not to equate sports and survival, but.... Those sports do have their katas.  The golfer spends an enormous amount of time perfecting their swing, judging the distances, learning what technique to use.

The bowler, perfects their holding of the ball, the proper throw, what technique for what pin configuration.

The wrestler has theirs, basketball has their kata....

I don't see your point...  If you look at the purpose of a kata then all those sports you mentioned has their own.  It is just they don't look like your shotakan katas.


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## Kenpodoc (Jan 31, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Many people believe it takes a long to time to learn self-defense and yet a fight is only seconds long.
> 
> Is our training practical and can a person who wants to learn to protect themselves have to train for years and years?
> 
> ...


Mike Tyson used to knock everyone out in a minute or two. I guarantee he traind for years to do it. Carlos santana can knock off a solo stoned in a minute or two and I guarantee he practiced for years. My son swims for hours everyday to learn to swim a race in 20 seconds or so.

Most things worth doing can't be learned in a few seconds or even in a few days.

Jeff


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## Mike Att (Jan 31, 2006)

It doesn't take years to learn how to defend yourself. A person can be trained to defend themselves in a short amount of time. It may take years to learn a system. But learning a system and learning how to defend yourself or fight, may not be the same thing. 

There are plenty of black belts walking around who couldn't fight there way out of a paper bag, but they know a system.


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## SAVAGE (Jan 31, 2006)

Personally, I think old uncle Bruce said it best...it is better to know and not need than to need and not know.....I have been involved in MA for 18 years...I do not train for one fight no matter if it lasts a second or an hour...I train to live.

I train to live through an altercation, I train to live a long life (one through survival and fitness), I train to be balanced, I train to be peaceful. And if some punk wants to test that he will and if you trained all your life and he was better...your still gonna get beat down.


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## Kenpodoc (Jan 31, 2006)

Mike Att said:
			
		

> It doesn't take years to learn how to defend yourself. A person can be trained to defend themselves in a short amount of time. It may take years to learn a system. But learning a system and learning how to defend yourself or fight, may not be the same thing.
> 
> There are plenty of black belts walking around who couldn't fight there way out of a paper bag, but they know a system.


True there are many Black Belt's who can't fight.  That's not the point.  The question is, are they more effective fighters than they were before they trained? I used Mike Tyson as my example for a reason.  He was a thug and I'm sure he fought effectively before he recieved any training, but with training he was an immensely effective thug far more dangerous.  

Jeff


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## MJS (Jan 31, 2006)

Mike Att said:
			
		

> It doesn't take years to learn how to defend yourself. A person can be trained to defend themselves in a short amount of time. It may take years to learn a system. But learning a system and learning how to defend yourself or fight, may not be the same thing.
> 
> There are plenty of black belts walking around who couldn't fight there way out of a paper bag, but they know a system.


 
We can look at this a few different ways.  We have one person who devotes "X" number of years to a style.  They train for a certain number of hours a week, learn required material, etc., and hopefully, can defend themselves if they need to.

Then we have someone who devotes time to an art such as Krav Maga.  I use this art as an example, because it is one of those that is simple, easy to learn and has some effective techniques.  

Now, regardless of which route the student takes, the fact remains that they still need to put in time to be sure that they can apply these techniques, make them work, etc.  

Should someone have to spend 20yrs before they can defend themselves?  I certainly would hope not, but even if they're learning simple, quick moves, they still need to put in that time.

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Feb 1, 2006)

Yes, it doesn't take long to learn what it takes to keep from getting punched in the mouth or a bloody nose.  However, if that is all I had to fear, I would just take the bloody nose.  :shrug:

However, there are FAR WORSE things to fear in this world and 10 or 20 hours of self-defense techniques aren't going to do you a whole lot of good.


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## Mike Att (Feb 1, 2006)

With all do respect KenpoDoc, that is the point. The question was does a person have to train for years to learn how to defend themselves? The answer is no. My point was that it may take years to learn a particular system, but learning a system does not neccassarily equate to learning how to fight. An effective fighting system should cover 3 components, mindset, tactics and skills. Most systems concentrate on skills, touch a little on mindset, and completely ignore tactics. 

You bring up Mike Tyson, as a person who is more effective fighter after he trained. I don't think the original question was aimed at a person like Mike Tyson. Tyson was a street kid, who already had a natural tenacity and a tendency toward violence. I'm sure Iron Mike had little trouble defending himself, without formal boxing training.


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## punisher73 (Feb 1, 2006)

It seems like you guys are comparing apples to oranges.  People don't take years to learn self-defense, they take years enjoying an art form.  There are different reasons for learning an art, self-defense is only one aspect of that.   

Also, you can "learn" a skill set in a very short amount of time.  I could should you a lead punch, rear punch, uppercuts, hooks, elbows, knees and a couple of kicks in an hour or two.  You have now just learned how to defend yourself.  It will take A LOT longer though to be able to use those tools in a fluid manner to make them work a high percentage of the time.  Now throw in some self-defense escapes from hold etc. again can be taught in a day but it will take a alot longer to be able to apply it without thinking.

Also, you need to learn how to turn up or tone down your response based on the situation.  Is it a drunken friend who is just going a little overboard and you need to do something without hurting him or ruining your friendship (happened to me before) or is this a random event where you really need to defend your life.  Again these skill sets take a little longer to learn and be able to incorporate.

So I guess my question is what do you consider "a long time", and do you mean learning a skill set in a short time and then taking a long time to perfect it?  There is no short cut to the learning process you still have to ingrain the movements so they become second nature.


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## SAVAGE (Feb 1, 2006)

punisher73 said:
			
		

> It seems like you guys are comparing apples to oranges. People don't take years to learn self-defense, they take years enjoying an art form. There are different reasons for learning an art, self-defense is only one aspect of that.
> 
> Also, you can "learn" a skill set in a very short amount of time. I could should you a lead punch, rear punch, uppercuts, hooks, elbows, knees and a couple of kicks in an hour or two. You have now just learned how to defend yourself. It will take A LOT longer though to be able to use those tools in a fluid manner to make them work a high percentage of the time. Now throw in some self-defense escapes from hold etc. again can be taught in a day but it will take a alot longer to be able to apply it without thinking.
> 
> ...


 
YEP!


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## swiftpete (Feb 1, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, It will not take years to learn how to fight back? If someone try to attack you or rape you today? What will you do? Wait till you get more years of training.....again the point is there are things one can learn today and use today to fight back?
> 
> Why is your system not teaching you these things? Most people who train for years and years will tell you they are not ready? Why? ...simple they have not train for real fighting!
> 
> ...


 
Maybe its just me that thought this, but from the thread and this, it sounds like you may have been involved in some sort of an incident recently..Have you?


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## searcher (Feb 2, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, It will not take years to learn how to fight back? If someone try to attack you or rape you today? What will you do? Wait till you get more years of training.....again the point is there are things one can learn today and use today to fight back?
> 
> Why is your system not teaching you these things? Most people who train for years and years will tell you they are not ready? Why? ...simple they have not train for real fighting!
> 
> ...


 
If you have no confidence in the training you have recieved then you need to look for another place to train.    Some schools specialize in "street fighting" and adrenal-stress training.   You might want to look into one.   The reason for the years it takes is getting prepared for the variables that come up and how to move without thinking.   Pretty simple really.    Some will be quicker studies than others.   JMHO.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 2, 2006)

Where did you get this 12 second statistic?

The only way a fight is going to end that fast is if it is not even, one guy has a significant size/strength/skill advantage.  People train for years to make sure they are on the side that has that advantage.

100 meter sprint is over pretty fast too, guess it doesn't take much training...


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## tradrockrat (Feb 2, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Where did you get this 12 second statistic?
> 
> The only way a fight is going to end that fast is if it is not even, one guy has a significant size/strength/skill advantage. People train for years to make sure they are on the side that has that advantage.
> 
> 100 meter sprint is over pretty fast too, guess it doesn't take much training...


 
I agree with this post completely, but when I'm teaching self defense, I'm actually trying to keep the students OUT of a fight.  In those classes I tell the students that if they are still fighting 15 seconds after the altercation starts, they have done something wrong.  The entire purpose is to get away safely, not win a fight.  As someone said earlier, Self defense isn't just about techniques and physical conditioning, it's about awareness and mental preparedness as well as strategies to avoid it all in the first place.


EDIT:  Geez, I forgot to write this:  In fact, in my classes, the 100 meter sprint was something to train in alongside techniques.  Being faster certainly has its advantages in a self defense situation.

BTW - I also tell my self defense students that if they are facing a well trained individual, they are in trouble - that's why it's so important to avoid the conflict if at all possible.  You never know who you face.


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## Brother John (Feb 2, 2006)

It DOESN"T take "Years" to learn it.

It takes time and effort to get GOOD at it.



Your Brother
John


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## still learning (Feb 2, 2006)

Hello, Thank-you for sharing your thoughts.  Most fights less than 12 seconds , I just chose 12 seconds for the discussions. Most the books I read on realing fighting stress fights are one way and less for a few seconds only.  Off course most of us will avoid or talk our way out if possible.

I just feel one needs to know how to strike back if attack day,end the confrontation.  

What are those strikes we can use NOW to protect ourselves?  Can most people learn those quickly and use it? 

Everyone knows learning martial arts takes years and years to develop for one self.  But why?....someone will one day come up with a system that can be learn in hours and be useful for the rest of your life.

Will it be YOU?


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 2, 2006)

How long do the marines, army, etc spend training self defence 
They spend way less than years and send out troops with some skill at defending themsleves.  It depends on what you teach and how involved or basic it is and how hard you train


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## Andrew Green (Feb 2, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> How long do the marines, army, etc spend training self defence



ok... lets go by # of hours 

I remember basic training... 18 hour days compared to 2-4 hours martial arts a week...  

In the couple months training army recruits get they put in more hours them most martial arts students do in a couple years.


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## Brother John (Feb 2, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> In the couple months training army recruits get they put in more hours them most martial arts students do in a couple years.


Yup!
And...don't forget, the greatest change that the training in the military gives isn't the gain in skill...though that's there, it's the FORGING of the metal deep within, digging down deep to pull up the physical and mental fortitude to keep going and go for MORE when everything within you is screaming to stop.
The inner strength that that type of training gives is one of the biggest reasons for a well trained Military...because THEN, once they've got that fine-tuned STEEL in their heart, they can take that strength, discipline, perseverance and dedication to whatever task they've got to learn next. THEN the skills come in and are heightened, reenforced and built upon.

The two different forms of training really can't be compared THAT much, though perhaps there are some similarities....but for this argument, it's apples and oranges.

Your Brother
John


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## hong kong fooey (Feb 3, 2006)

it takes years because you never know who you may have to defend yourself againist. yea a fight my take a couple of seconds but what about if there is more then one person?


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## Kenpodoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Mike Att said:
			
		

> With all do respect KenpoDoc, that is the point. The question was does a person have to train for years to learn how to defend themselves? The answer is no. My point was that it may take years to learn a particular system, but learning a system does not neccassarily equate to learning how to fight. An effective fighting system should cover 3 components, mindset, tactics and skills. Most systems concentrate on skills, touch a little on mindset, and completely ignore tactics.
> 
> You bring up Mike Tyson, as a person who is more effective fighter after he trained. I don't think the original question was aimed at a person like Mike Tyson. Tyson was a street kid, who already had a natural tenacity and a tendency toward violence. I'm sure Iron Mike had little trouble defending himself, without formal boxing training.


I think that you missed my point. Not everyone is a skilled ruthless fighter but even a ruthless physically skilled fighter can benefit from prolonged training. An incoordinated pansy like me can benefit dramatically. Not all schools teach as well as others, this varies by system and teacher. Self defence and ring fighting are very different, skills are similar but mindset and tactics vary dramatically. Dueling (empty handed or with a weapon) in a bar is very different from street assault. 

The other consideration is failing physical skills as we grow older. An unskilled 20 year old can bluff and blast their way through things far easier with less training than an out of shape 50 year old. Never the less 8 years of traing with Mr. Hatfield has made me a more dangerous person than I was 30 years ago.

Finally, it is a logical fallacy to believe that the length of an act has anything to do with the time it takes to do the act well. It is the complexity of the act that determines the time taken to respond well and appropriately.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Yup!
> And...don't forget, the greatest change that the training in the military gives isn't the gain in skill...though that's there, it's the FORGING of the metal deep within, digging down deep to pull up the physical and mental fortitude to keep going and go for MORE when everything within you is screaming to stop.
> The inner strength that that type of training gives is one of the biggest reasons for a well trained Military...because THEN, once they've got that fine-tuned STEEL in their heart, they can take that strength, discipline, perseverance and dedication to whatever task they've got to learn next. THEN the skills come in and are heightened, reenforced and built upon.
> 
> ...


Good point.  Also remember that raw recruits new to the field are far less skilled than say , experienced special forces.

Jeff


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## Bigshadow (Feb 3, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> In the couple months training army recruits get they put in more hours them most martial arts students do in a couple years.



And....  They barely have what it takes to deal with hand to hand.  They are taught to rely on their rifle.  (Special forces an exception to the rule).


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2006)

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> EDIT: Geez, I forgot to write this: In fact, in my classes, the 100 meter sprint was something to train in alongside techniques. Being faster certainly has its advantages in a self defense situation.


 
I have used that skill on more than one occasion.  Sometimes it went longer than 100 meters...


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## Grenadier (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm going to put this in another perspective.

The way you perform when push comes to shove, is probably going to default to the level that you have consistently trained.  Taking years to train to perform at a higher level on a consistent basis is the only way to accomplish this, unless you are some sort of phenomal person, which the overwhelming majority of people (including almost all of us here on this board) are not.  

The neophyte might panic, and forget the training that he has done in the short period of time, whereas the more experienced will have a better chance of keeping a cool head.


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## Adept (Feb 3, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> It DOESN"T take "Years" to learn it.
> 
> It takes time and effort to get GOOD at it.
> 
> ...



If it takes more than a month of dedicated training to get GOOD at self defense, then there are some serious issues in the training methodology. Practical self defense should be simple and intuitive.

The thing is, if you still want to be able to defend yourself in five years, you need to keep training for five years.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 3, 2006)

I think the best response i've heard about why it takes years to learn 'self-defense' is 'defense against what?'.  You can learn how to defend yourself 'better' today.  However, it doesn't automatically mean you're prepared to defend against 'any' threat out there.  There are some threats you'll spend years preparing for.  Some threats you'll never be prepared for.


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## stone_dragone (Feb 3, 2006)

Mike Att said:
			
		

> It doesn't take years to learn how to defend yourself. A person can be trained to defend themselves in a short amount of time. It may take years to learn a system. But learning a system and learning how to defend yourself or fight, may not be the same thing.
> 
> There are plenty of black belts walking around who couldn't fight there way out of a paper bag, but they know a system.


 
I think Mike (and several others with the same angle) are spot on.  Learning how to defend yourself is a fairly simple task.  Learning how to fight is even simpler.  I could teach a monkey how to fight in a week.  I never said "fight well," by the way.  It's the art, the history and the philosophy that makes us martial artists and takes the time and makes it worth it.  Simply because one can fight or defend themselves doesnt make them a better person... just safer (or not)!  My two bits...


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## Kenpodoc (Feb 4, 2006)

Adept said:
			
		

> If it takes more than a month of dedicated training to get GOOD at self defense, then there are some serious issues in the training methodology. Practical self defense should be simple and intuitive.
> 
> The thing is, if you still want to be able to defend yourself in five years, you need to keep training for five years.


It depends on your definition of GOOD.

Jeff


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## Brother John (Feb 4, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> It depends on your definition of GOOD.
> 
> Jeff


 
Exactly. 

Many settle for less. 
MOSTsettle for mediocrity.

Your Brother
John


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## Jagermeister (Feb 9, 2006)

To answer the original question, it's kind of like working all year long so you can get your 2 weeks off, then bam, the vacation's over in the blink of an eye.  "Well, there's always next year."  Life sucks, doesn't it?


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## still learning (Feb 9, 2006)

Hello,  If you had to teach someone to fight back, but does not have the time to train for years or don't want too.

What can you teach them to learn to fight back and survive? In a day, or week?

My daughter does not want to train in the martial arts.  Do you think she can learn a few things in a short time to fight back and survive?  

Can the average person learn this too? and survive?  One day training or in week?

I guess this is what I was trying to say.............Aloha

Thank-you for sharing your thoughts!!!


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> My daughter does not want to train in the martial arts. Do you think she can learn a few things in a short time to fight back and survive?


I think real issue is you have train something often enough and long enough so that it becomes a natural reaction. Maybe in a couple of weeks with couple of hours of training each day, she might be able to respond with a very limited set of responses. But without constant training, those responses will fade away. I believe training must be long enough so that things are done without conscious thought. If you have to stop and think, your dead.

So in essence, yes, maybe, but it is all relative.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 9, 2006)

Still Learning, 

You can learn "self defense" in the time it takes to learn to pick up a handgun, insert ammo, and turn the saftey off.

Is it the most appropriate response in ALL situations? 

Really, its one tool in a toolbox.  I could prolly build a house with nothing but a hammer, but it would take a long time, and be a lousy house.

Studying an art for years, it fills your toolbox up with a Saw, Some Planes, a level, and gives you somthing to use BESIDES the hammer.

Its all about CHOICES.  I could take an afternoon course in self defense that teaches me to mace someone, then kick their groin, and run.  Effective self defense, but very limited.  Id prefer to have more choices than that, especially since you cant always count on being attacked by ONE GUY with no groin protection while you are carrying your mace.

As far as your daughter, Theres always the Bobby Hill method.  Scream "Thats My Purse!" and kick him in the jimmies.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> As far as your daughter, Theres always the Bobby Hill method.  Scream "Thats My Purse!" and kick him in the jimmies.



Great episode! Darn, I wish I could have thought of that...  Good technique he had!


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## CuongNhuka (Feb 12, 2006)

every one who wishes to learn to fight (like guys with no Martial arts ex.) learns it over years. we learn it threw techinque & kata. they learn it from people who are older, and being in fights. either way, they rarely train for a little bit before they can give anybody even a hard time. let alone win.and part of the reason is it takes alot of time to learn a lot of what works, part of it is to build up techinical strength and skill, and the right attitude. that is why a lot of people get frustrated when what they learn in the dojo or what have you doesn't work right away. 
i've seen that happen alot. and then they see me in a fight (which happens once a year if i'm lucky), and they don't get how i win.i've been doing martial arts in some form for almost my whole life. of course i'm good at it. fighting is anouther matter. 
but i'm ranting

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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