# Acceptance of Rank



## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 30, 2002)

This is a two part question really.   


1)    Would you take rank from someone who's principles or standards about the art you didn't agree with, and if so, why?   


2)   What does it mean to you to accept the next rank?


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 30, 2002)

Well to answer question #1 I will say no to. The reason being is I would feel I cheated the art and myself if I just accepted a new rank from someone. I personally would like to add more to the curriculum I'm on. When looking through book 5 at  the requirements then at mine sometimes I feel like I have not received everything in a whole. Our class works off of a 16/20 curriculum with only 3 sets in there (blocking, kicking & finger). Mr. C. has a great set of requirements with a lot of knowledge. At his seminar I went to he had a 7yr. old girl doing his requirements while i just stood there. Not that I couldn't do what she was but I needed to be taught the ways of his system to do so. When reading some posts on this forum or others I can't always follow them and it makes me feel uncomfortable if I'm the same rank & can't do the same things b/c I wasn't taught. 

Now on to question #2.  To me accepting the next rank is like a right of passage to move onto the next set of requirements. That during the test whomever is giving the test deems you worthy of the rank or degree that you tested for. It is a good feeling when you know after putting in many hrs. in and out of class the instructor(s) testing you gives the front kick and your moving to new material. 
Jason Farnsworth


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## Rainman (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *This is a two part question really.
> 
> ...



1.  No- if they are not my teacher they have no business doing that.  If I don't agree with most of their views they would not be my teacher anyways right?

2.   That my teacher recognized my work as being on another level.  


What principles do you not agree with?


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## satans.barber (Jun 30, 2002)

> 1)    Would you take rank from someone who's principles or standards about the art you didn't agree with, and if so, why?



Yes I would, and yes I have. Disagreeing with someone doesn't make what they think wrong, so why wouldn't I? Also there is often no other choice, there are some things that the man who grades me does and says that I really don't agree with, but if I didn't get graded by him I'd have to leave kenpo altogether and go to some other style, which I don't want to do.



> 2)   What does it mean to you to accept the next rank?



That I am being rewarded for my efforts, commitment and achievement, and hopefully that my instructor now has more respect for my skills than he did before.

Ian.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 30, 2002)

Personally, I couldn't and won't accept rank from someone I didn't agree with  about the art, it's principles,  foundations, etc.,  and if that meant moving on, then I've done that as well, found someone who did agree in action and thought, been ecstatically happy since.    I was just curious if others had been, or are, in that position.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *
> 1)    Would you take rank from someone who's principles or standards about the art you didn't agree with, and if so, why?
> *



Absolutely not.  You should only accept rank from your current teacher.  If you don't like them, then you should go thru proper channels and change.  Anything other than that is dishonorable in my book.  

But many do not care ..... only that they get a rank from someone who is willing to give or sell it away.



> *
> 2)   What does it mean to you to accept the next rank?
> *



If promoted properly, it is a gesture from your instructor that has watched you toil and work thru the system, struggle and gain knowledge with time.  It is then the privilege of the instructor to "award" this advancement for work "DONE" under his guidance.  It is now a privilege and honor to work even more to continue to be worthy of the rank that I wear and achieve and share more.

:asian:


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## Rainman (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



And share you do  -salute-

:asian:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 30, 2002)

Dennis, I never said anything about disliking your instructor (why would you even be there if you didn't think they were a good person?) , just if you had different philosophies than them.    It would seem you misunderstood the question.     Morality is a completely different issue of which I've been thru that as well.      My question was directed to those that would accept rank if the person offering it to them didn't have the same feelings about the art or where it should go than themselves.     For instance, I believe the terminology of the EPAK system is extremely important to the welfare of the art, and there are others that do not take this view.      I personally wouldn't take rank from those without the same philosophies of the art as myself.     

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## satans.barber (Jun 30, 2002)

I hope i'm not going to be chided for honesty.

Is it not worth pointing out that it's our different opinions that make us individuals? I thought kenpo was about individuality?

I don't see what this problem is where you have to be on the same train of thought as your instructor or you leave?

I think people need to cite examples to make it clearer.

Things my instructor has done that I don't agree with:

* Cut EPAK down a little _too_ far so too much of the understanding has been removed. We don't do any forms,. and yet he wonders why everyone's stance work is sloppy...go figure.

* Last week he failed and entire junior class and an entire senior class in one morning, treating them as two wholes instead of 40+ individuals. Many of those people should have passed with flying colours.

* He shows you a technique one way, you learn it, he changes it, you learn the new way, he comes back up and tells you you're doing it wrong, you remind him he made the changes last time he was up, he denies it....ad infinitum. He'll never accept that he's wrong.

* Never praises, only criticises.

* Never acknowledges when you're progressed, only notes when you haven't.

* Acts in an intimidating manner

I'm bored of typing this now, I could probably think of 5 more. Is this cause, under your ethos, for me to move schools? Where would I go?

These are complaints about the man who grades us by the way, since this is about accepting rank, these are not complaints about my sensei. Two different men.

From kenpo I could only leave to another kenpo school (there are none within about 100 miles), JKD (again no local ones) or Kung Fu (again, no local ones). I don't think I'd be happy in anything else.

I live 6 miles outside of the city, 2 minutes from a kenpo school. Given the very very low numbers of kenpo schools in Britain I class it as a miricle that I live on the doorstep of one, so there's no way I'm leaving.

Ian.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 30, 2002)

Ian, I applaud your honesty, tenacity, and selfworth values, it seems your instructor needs some instructing themselves, but bang on till you meet someone who does agree with you.    Until then, happy Kenpo.

Have a great day

Clyde


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## jeffkyle (Jun 30, 2002)

I guess in my book that would have to depend on how different our philosophies were.  If there were just a few differences that were minor, i think i could work around that, but if we were totally opposite on our views then i wouldn't accept rank from them if i couldn't even agree with them about the Art.  However, that is something a person develops until they have been in the art a while and have seen several different people to base your philosophy on.  By then you should have been in the art long enough to make an informed decision.   

And accepting rank from someone means that you feel that they are on the same path you are on regarding the art, and you believe they are where you want to be.  And them promoting you means that they recognize your skill, development, and hard work.


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## brianhunter (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *This is a two part question really.
> 
> ...



Clyde,
      Question 1: To be honest, I have in the past....would I do it now? No. I have went through a "mail order" black belt type thing in the past before I knew alot about what being a martial artist meant. I have Jeff Kyle to thank for alot of that hes a good friend and an outstanding teacher I should have went to class with him in high school instead of wondering the hallways. Now I feel it isnt right and I wear what color I should be and earned proudly. So I guess that was then this is now and Im a little older so I say no.
      Question 2: A new beggining, every rank should be another step in your journey, its symbolic of the past, youve conquered your goals, symbolic of the present, you think about where you are at and accept it. It also represents your next step and goal which will be the future and this I learned very recently you will always be a begginer and a belt helps to show what lever of begginer you are.


My 2 cents...dont take any wooden nickles!

Brian Hunter


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## Kirk (Jul 1, 2002)

I think there's a difference before black and after.  I'm learning
my instructor's curriculum, and there's a method to his madness
therein.  I wouldn't accept a purple belt from anyone other than
my instructor, because I'm there to learn what HE has to teach
me, regardless of what others think of my personal skill level.
But there's an exception ... I'll get to that in a sec.  Let's say
that as an orange belt, I can peform all techs,forms, basics that
is required for a blue belt.  Yet my instructor has a minimum time
in grade before you can test.  Then along comes (for example)
Mr Tatum giving a seminar in my school.  He feels (and I'm not
saying he'd do this, I just grabbed his name randomly) that I
deserve a blue belt, and hands me a certificate.  I would definitely
take the certificate, because heck, it's Mr Tatum's signature, and
it's a hell of a compliment.  But I would wear the belt my instructor
last promoted me to, ALWAYS.  Because I'm in his school, and
I'm paying HIM to teach me, HIS way.  

Now to the exception, as minor as it is.  My instructor's instructor
is Huk.  My instructor teaches the curriculum Mr Planas has laid
out for him.  The students in my school wear a patch that says,
"Parker/Planas Lineage".  So a repeat of the above scenario 
would carry  a bit more weight because in essence, Huk is also
my instructor, is he not?  Now I wouldn't be so bold as to tell
my instructor ( the owner of the school ) "Hey!  Huk promoted me
to this color, so I'm wearing it".  But I would probably (ya never
KNOW .. this is all theory) go to my instructor and try to make a
strong case for wearing that higher belt.  And I think my instructor
would probably allow it.  He would still have the final say though!
If anyone else promoted me, I'd tell my instructor about it, but I
wouldn't even think about asking if I could BE that rank, cause
I just wouldn't want to, unless it came from him.


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## GouRonin (Jul 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *1)Would you take rank from someone who's principles or standards about the art you didn't agree with, and if so, why?
> *



Sure. Why not? What do I care? If some walks up to me, gives me a belt and a cert and says _"I think you should be this rank."_ I would say thank you and then just continue doing what I like doing anyway. It doesn't mean i'm gonna wear his rank nor does it mean I won't tell people who he gave it to me or how. If he asks me for some money I'll tell him to stuff it in his ear. Having said that I also won't try to get ahead based on that rank. 



> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *2)What does it mean to you to accept the next rank?*



New shoes. My belt has to match my shoes.
Just kidding.
To me it doesn't mean anything. Anyone I train under shows me information. I never want to be one of those @ssholes you meet at seminars who parade their rank around like it means you should kiss their butt.


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## Kirk (Jul 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I never want to be one of those @ssholes you meet at seminars who parade their rank around like it means you should kiss their butt. *



Agreed ... but some can feel pressure, or discredited as a result
of NOT having a black belt.  Ed Parker Jr said he only got his to
shut people up.  Can't say I blame him.


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## Chiduce (Jul 2, 2002)

Question #1. Yes. I have in the past not agreed with my sifu and he not agreed with me. Yet, i was not disrespectful to him about our differences. A week after our disagreement on the art and his and my systems, his sifu disagreed with him and through him out of his house. The domino effect i guess. Now we are sharing each other's systems philosophy's, likenesses and differences. The disagreements brought us closer together. Odd , yet it did. Question#2. Yes. This is what we learn for. Some disciples never get rank other than disciple. My sifu's teacher did not give out rank. Other teachers within my area follow the same principles of not confering rank. Recognition and rank for them came from others whom saw and experienced their knowledge, abilities, and present skills. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Chronuss (Jul 4, 2002)

you know, about the rank...I've had my black belt for two months now...and I think I've worn it three times.  once at the test, once when I got home to see what it looked like with a black gi( I'll speak a bit more about this later), and I got bamboozled into wearing at a tourney cause Sensei got me to judge children's forms...oy.  at that test...there were so many things that bothered me.  they didnt' throw sidekicks correctly, they rather stomp on the plywood floor to see how loud they could be instead of step, so many things.  I personally just feel weird wearing it, which is why I refuse to wear it, even though I had permission, in the Kenpo dojo.  I just...don't feel that rank yet...I dunno, weird to explain.



the reason I said I put on a black gi is because it was my black belt in TKD...being so, I had to wear a white gi at the test, a white gi I had to purchase to wear that one time, that I wanted to rip off and run over by the car.  As soon as I got outta the test and into the car, I told Sensei Seigel (Kenpo Sensei, he went to the TKD test with me for support) that I was gonna dye it black.


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## Seig (Jul 5, 2002)

I have to add that he was not amused when I tried to get a quart of milk from him in a glass bottle or failing that a Nutty Buddy:roflmao:


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## Chronuss (Jul 5, 2002)

Hardy friggin' har har...my sides are splitting...make it stop (please note the sarcasm..)


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## Seig (Jul 5, 2002)

Sarcasm noted....Note the foot headed your way.


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## Chronuss (Jul 5, 2002)

I don't think Karen would approve of a Chad hole in the dojo wall...


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## Klondike93 (Jul 5, 2002)

I've just relized that you must be the person that Seig wrote about going to a TKD black belt test with and was really disapointed with the whole thing.


:asian:


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## Chronuss (Jul 5, 2002)

yessir, I am.  there were just so many irregular protocols that they were doing that churned my stomach.  in this TKD org. that shall remain nameless (simply because I don't wanna make fun of them) they have their names embroidered onto the belt on one side and the org on the other and Korean corresponding and so forth.  well, they'd take the one length of belt that had their name on it (look straight down with belt tied and should be the right side on the knot) and they'd tuck back under the layers of belt so people could clearly read their name...to me, this is pure vanity. it matters not if your name is on a belt.  and they stomped on this plywood floor like if they were the loudest one they'd get a friggin' medal.  I was quite perturbed.  all of'em in these crisp white gi's...I just wanted to take chocolate syrup and squeeze the bottle...I just feel so much more comfy in a black gi...it's the Dark side coming out in me.  hehe.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 6, 2002)

Well, about all's I can say is that the issue never came up. To begin with, I always assumed that my instructors, in kenpo and in grad school, simply knew a hell of a lot more than I did and it would be best for me to shut up and try to learn.

Fortunately, I was lucky in my teachers--Toni, Scott Higgins, Larry Tatum especially (with Clyde's painful kibitzing superadded!)--so I never had to get into a big snit about whether or not they deserved my respect. It seemed pretty clear then, and pretty clear now, that they did.

It occurs to me that one of the issues, here, is what Freudians call transference. All teaching depends upon pretty primitive identifications of students and teachers, which is why the teacher/student relationship is so open to abuse. It's also why we students even think in these terms to begin with...

But I cannot imagine taking lessons from someone I utterly disrespected. Fortunately, I've never had to worry about it.

As for the question about what rank means, let me tell ya a little Clyde story. I'm in class one Saturday morning, and the beast is teaching. After about 45 minutes, it calls me (green belt. or 3rd brown) up, Cliff (black belt), and I think William (ditto). And it starts demanding forms. We get through Long 3, which I was still pretty wobbly with, not to mention I hate performing. And we do this damn form stopping, backing up, restarting, repeating steps, by the numbers...which I survive. More or less.

Then Clyde looks at the class and says," You know why they can do that? because it's the responsibility of their rank." 

I don't know why, but it's still what I think of when such questions come up.


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## Seig (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _
> 
> *I don't think Karen would approve of a Chad hole in the dojo wall... *


How about a "Dimpled Chad" then?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 6, 2002)

I thought I heard the last of dimpled chads.......:rofl:


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## Chronuss (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I thought I heard the last of dimpled chads..... *




...I am not ammused.

Sensei usually has a way of creating a dimpled Chad on spar night...usually with a spinning hook...


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## Seig (Jul 7, 2002)

And I have to be very carefull to make sure it is not completely punched through.


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## Chronuss (Jul 7, 2002)

..if it was completely punched through, it would no longer be dimpled...it would be knocked out...er..


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 7, 2002)

take away one rank.......


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 7, 2002)

Uh... er... um...

*  DON'T KICK ME IN THE CHAD!!!  * :lol:


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## Chronuss (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *take away one rank....... *




..er....?


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## Testdummy (Sep 11, 2002)

Yes i would take in mind that if someone came in from another place and was a higher belt then me then i would respect that for the meer fact that hen/she is a higher belt and plus they may know more then you.  As for the people in the same dojo yes. I think they earned that right to tell you what to do even tho you don't see it their way.:shrug:


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## tonbo (Sep 13, 2002)

Hmmm......this requires a bit of thought.

Okay, answers:

1)  Would I accept rank from someone I disagreed fundamentally with?  I doubt it.  If I disagreed fundamentally, I shouldn't be studying with that person.  I trust my sensei, and I want him to trust me.  If I am not honest with him, and him with me, then our relationship goes nowhere, and I am wasting my time.  I have disagreements with my sensei from time to time, but they have always been relatively minor, and quickly resolved with little problem.  I will accept rank from my sensei, my teacher, my mentor...all the same person.  However, I will not accept rank from someone that I don't trust or work well with.  I will also not be seeking rank from someone that I haven't actually trained under.  If I were somehow magically able to be granted rank from someone like Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, Dennis Conatser, etc., I would be happy to accept it, but I would treat it as an honorary rank (assuming it is a Dan rank--I would be happy to accept non-Black ranks from any of these men).  Anyway, as with so much else, it all depends.  

2)  What does it mean to me to accept rank?  It means that I am accepting the judgement of my instructor that I am ready to go to another level.  It means that he is welcoming me to a new degree of training, and that he is expecting me to rise to the challenge.  It means that the bar has been raised on my performance, both in class and out.  It is a symbol of trust, and of belief.  Yes, the belt is nice, but it is just a symbol.  The sentiment *behind* the symbol is what is inspiring.  It means to me that my relationship with my instructor, my school, and my fellow students has taken another step.  In short, it is a beautiful thing; has been since the day I first strapped on my lovely new white belt...

Again.....Ah, the memories....

Peace--


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## Chronuss (Sep 13, 2002)

I had a somewhat difficult time accepting my black belt in TKD from a man that went from fifth dan to eighth dan in the course of three years, which was the time it took me to get to first. for about four months, I think I had worn it twice: when I got it at the test(damnable white gi) and when I got home that night(wanted to see what it looked like with the black gi).  Seig and Tess keep drilling into me that I put in the time and that I earned it.  to me, it just feels very strange to put it on, and I still have a hard time wearing it.  Seig even said I was allowed to wear it in the dojo, but I refused.  I am not a black belt in Kenpo and I still have a long way to go til I am, so I refuse to wear it after I enter that door.


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## Seig (Sep 14, 2002)

The bottom line is, you earned your rank, he didn't.


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 14, 2002)

I still have some issues from my first instructor as well. Usually when people ask me about my previous training, how high did you get questions? I just usually respond with I spent x amount of yrs. with him and he truly gave me a good foundation of fundamentals to learn the kenpo system. I personally feel that I have gained  a lot of knowledge in kenpo but have a ton of material yet to learn or just better yet to understand. Another couple of pennies to add.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Kirk (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *I still have some issues from my first instructor as well. Usually when people ask me about my previous training, how high did you get questions? I just usually respond with I spent x amount of yrs. with him and he truly gave me a good foundation of fundamentals to learn the kenpo system. I personally feel that I have gained  a lot of knowledge in kenpo but have a ton of material yet to learn or just better yet to understand. Another couple of pennies to add.
> Jason Farnsworth *




Well now you got me curious, let's hear the whole story! :asian:


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## KenpoDave (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *This is a two part question really.
> 
> ...




I would have to say no to #1, and ask, why would someone who I have fundamental differences with involving principles and standards be offering me rank?

To #2, it means a new mantle of responsibility.  It means more credibility for my knowledge, and therefore requires more diligence on my part to do my best for my students.

Dave


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDave _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



You hit the nail on the head Dave, thanks for maintaining integrity.   I've seen lots of folks lately taking rank from any ole Tom, Dick, and Harry out there that will hand it to them and it puzzles me how they can sleep at night knowing they didn't do anything to earn it.       Worse yet, how do they explain to their students if they have any?       

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## KenpoDave (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



By the way, what does CISOTIC Kenpoka stand for?

Dave


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## GouRonin (Sep 15, 2002)

*C*onstantly
*I*n
*S*earch
*O*f
*T*ruth
*I*n
*C*ombat

If I am not mistaken. See? I pay attention.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Constantly
> In
> ...



You've won the cupie doll, or the Canadian equivalent .    Any word yet on your situation?   Keep me posted and call me would ya?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *
> I've seen lots of folks lately taking rank from any ole Tom, Dick, and Larry out there that will hand it to them and it puzzles me how they can sleep at night knowing they didn't do anything to earn it.     Worse yet, how do they explain to their students if they have any?
> *



Well, if they didn't earn it, then they paid for it....... and then promoted their students so they wouldn't have to explain it!

Thats easy enough to understand. 

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Sep 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Quit picking on me. Do I have to fly over there again???:soapbox:


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## Seig (Sep 21, 2002)

Well, you could just fly up here next weekend and I can referee!


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## GouRonin (Sep 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *You've won the cupie doll, or the Canadian equivalent .
> Any word yet on your situation?   Keep me posted and call me would ya?*



Yay! No word yet from my e-mails and calls. No worries. I occupy my time quite easily.

I'm gonna go seminar roving in the near future. We'll see.

Cheers!

:cheers:


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