# Best Scam



## GouRonin

What's the best scam you ever heard of in the martial arts? The best one I ever heard of was a guy who tacked 250.00$ onto the black belt test if the person wanted to be registered as a weapon with the police. It was pure scam but people paid for it and believed in it too.

So what do you all think of some good scams people pull on their students? Special clubs? Etc etc...name them off!
:soapbox:


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## Cthulhu

Three words:
Chung Moo Do

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin

I can't compete with that.


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## Cthulhu

Heh...I remember back in the mid 90's when the MA newsgroups were flooded with CMD horror stories.  
My instructor visited one of the three or four CMD schools in the Tampa area way back when and was suitably unimpressed.  They kept bugging him to sign a contract when all he wanted to do was watch the class (and see how bad they were firsthand).  

I've seen some _horrible_ CMD stories on the newsgroups back then.  I think they're still around, but nowhere near as prevalent as they once were, thankfully.

Cthulhu
(I'm also holding another ace up my sleeve, Gou...can you say Beasely? )


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## GouRonin

Not being too familiar with JKD stuff you'll have to explain the Jerry Beasely thing.


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## Cthulhu

Okay, here ya go...

Only three people were ever certified as JKD instructors by Bruce Lee: James Lee, Dan Inosanto, and Taky Kimura.  Anybody claiming to teach JKD must be able to trace their lineage to one of these three people.  For example, the JKD fella on this board, IFAJKD, can trace his lineage back to Inosanto, I think, via Paul Vunak.

Beasely's certification is questionable at best.  Yet, even with highly dubious certification, he has managed to get a position as a college professor teaching JKD philosophies at Radford (I believe).  He and his fellow phoney JKD instructor Joe Lewis hold seminars all over.  Yet neither of these men have any authentic certification to teach JKD.  Beasely, like countless others, are merely making money off of Lee's name and JKD.  The rat bastich.  Ahem.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin

Who do they claim taught them?


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## Cthulhu

Well, Joe Lewis had about a half-dozen sessions with Bruce Lee, but never recieved ANY kind of certification from him.  For quite some time, Lewis would go out of his way to state that he wasn't a student of Lee.  That's awfully funny, considering he's claiming to teach JKD now.

I _think_ Beasely claims certification under Wong, who trained with Lee but was never a certified instructor.  He may have gotten certification under another instructor at a later time, though.  I haven't seen anything to back this, however.

If IFAJKD ever comes out of lurking, he could probably offer a lot more info.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin

How does Beasly move? I mean, I know Lewis can boogie but is the stuff they are teaching THE stuff?


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## Cthulhu

To be perfectly honest, I can't say.  I've seen precious little material (video, picture, etc.) of Beasely in action.  There's the occasional 'action pose' in magazine ads, but they don't tell you anything.

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD

ok...I'm not lurking ANYMORE....Beasly moves like a wounded albatras (sp?) He likes to pose as he moves to try to look like bruce and he straight blasts like a ......kitten?????? Joe does well for a kickboxer and has one hell of a history with that but JKD I don't think so. John Little had told me from Bruce's own notes that he had met with Joe...I can't remember but it was something like 4  times...I don't know and at least two of those were dinner. Though Bruce did drop him on two occassions when Joe had oinked him off.  Basically Joe and Jerry are products of Ted who was never certified by Bruce for reasons nobody knows...Ted did have a lot of training time with Bruce but compared to Dan... Well Dan was the man then and still is now...Taky certified nobody, at least up to 1993. From that point he may have as Linda, Bruce's wife wanted to start the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Nucleus. This meant they needed Instructors and the push was on. Beasly has simply angered many people including Paul and if it were 10 years ago Paul would have flown out to see him already. Today he has mellowed. Jerry has done a lot of attempted damage to subtley undermind Dan Inosanto. This is where I get a little upset beacuse I read Jerry's invitation to "feel the sting of his straight blast" if anyone didn't believe him....I really would love to feel that sting. I think it all comes down to one thing...Giving Dan Inosanto the respect he deserves. To try to discredit him to make him (Jerry) look good is very dangerous... But the part that bites me the most is a "college course" ...PLEASE.....how many people has he given this bull too? how many have bought it? it takes so much from those of us who have worked under a legitimate line to teach what JKD and FMA's influx into it was/is really about.
EVOLUTION. 
I'M Back !
Oh yeah the craziest thing I've heard...Jerry's invitation


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## Cthulhu

Ah, Mr. Jerry Weasely.

I've recently read that Ted Wong was certified by Bruce, but only to 2nd rank.  It is generally accepted that 2nd rank is NOT an instructor's rank, but I'm not sure if that has ever been set in stone.  Regardless of that, Ted Wong never ran one of Bruce's schools and I don't think he was formally given Lee's blessing to teach, as J. Lee, Kumura, and Inosanto has.

Joe Lewis.  I too, have heard that Lewis got pounced on a couple of times by Lee.  I wonder if Mr. Lewis would care to enlighten us on those instances?  I bet he'd suddenly develop memory loss if asked.

I must say that I respect Joe Lewis's accomplishments as a professional fighter, and he has helped promote martial arts in his own way.  However, a JKD instructor?  Nope.  Not gonna swallow that one.  Spoon full of sugar my a$$.

From Radford's own Website, the JKD course is listed as a 1 credit Kung fu/JKD class, which pretty much makes it a basic phys. ed. course.  However, I find it hard to believe they made him a full professor.  Were they hurting THAT bad for faculty?  The faculty pages lists his areas of 'expertise' as: Commercial Fitness (I can't argue with the 'commercial' part), First Aid, and Martial Arts: JKD (groan), Tae Kwondo [sic], Jiu Jitsu (what system?), Kali (what system?), Karate (what system?), and Self Defense (chortle).  He apparently teaches a generic self defense and martial arts course, 3 credits each.  I'd post a link here, but I don't want to pollute the board.

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD

I'm down, I'm down.  Ted didn't have Instructors cert. To the best of my knowledge he has No cert. Again this doesn't take away from time spent with Bruce. But he MUST keep it clear and he has not. Dan is clear. He not only is certified but in all three certifications Bruce has ever given. He is the ONLY one to be able to claim that. Bruce once told him that "it didn't matter how good he was, Taky was still his seinor" (Bruce was very traditional in many ways) This statement puts Dan's skills in perspective. This is why Dan helped Bruce develop JKD. He was an athlete and as such could hang for the longest with him compared to anyone Bruce had worked with. Man I could tell some stories.....But too public.....another time.


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## Bob

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *What's the best scam you ever heard of in the martial arts? The best one I ever heard of was a guy who tacked 250.00$ onto the black belt test if the person wanted to be registered as a weapon with the police. It was pure scam but people paid for it and believed in it too.
> 
> So what do you all think of some good scams people pull on their students? Special clubs? Etc etc...name them off!
> :soapbox: *



I know of a instructor here in Washington that had a clause in his contract stating that no black belt of his could open a school with in so many miles of his. (I can not recall the exact distance) If any of his black belts did this, he would take them to court and sue them. I didn't put much credence into this story until I met one of his black belts and I invite him into a open sparring session at Datu Wordens. He confirmed the story and also asked me and Datu to keep his visit to our school a secret because he would be kicked out of his school for associating with any other school. He knew one of the other black belts personally, who had challenged the "distance clause" in the contract, and he stated that he was indeed in court.  
Another story is that I walked into a little local school which advertised 8 styles all taught by one instructor. When he saw me walk in he ran into his office, pulled out a contract the size of a telephone book and tried to call me into his office. I proceeded to tell him that I was just curious about his style and that I just came by to watch. Then he asked me if I had previous martial experience and when I told him yes, he told me that he would not train me because I was not a beginner. Talk about wanting control over your students. He looked at me like I was infected with a disease of some kind. Then a while later a friend of mine, who was interested in martial arts came to me and asked my advise, and I told him to go look around and see what is out there. Well, he called me a couple of days later, he told me that he a school and instantly he was approached with a huge contract (right then I knew what school he was talking about)!!!! The instructor proceed to give him 20 questions and when my friend told him that he was just looking around the instructor proceed to use my friend as a demonstration dummy without his permission. Luckily my friend got out of there before the instructor could do any more damage then what he had already...........


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## IFAJKD

That reminds me of one of my stories. I had a training partner and later a student who was maybe the best this Tae Kwon Do School had. They told him they were dropping his rank because he was a student of mine also. Here is this Blue...yes blue belt sparring bb and opening a can on em....man I still don't know why he stayed. BS


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *
> Another story is that I walked into a little local school which advertised 8 styles all taught by one instructor. *



Ah, the infamous Chung Moo Do raises its ugly head yet again!



> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *
> When he saw me walk in he ran into his office, pulled out a contract the size of a telephone book and tried to call me into his office. I proceeded to tell him that I was just curious about his style and that I just came by to watch. Then he asked me if I had previous martial experience and when I told him yes, he told me that he would not train me because I was not a beginner. Talk about wanting control over your students.*



I'd bet good money that he didn't want to train you because, with your previous training, you would immediately tell he was a FRAUD the first time you saw him move!  If you ever take the time, analyze CMD's claims.  According to them, they are either directly or indirectly responsible for the creation of there so-called '8 martial arts taught as one'.  Not a single one of the facts they give regarding those arts is accurate.  Hell, they can't even get the names right.



> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *
> He looked at me like I was infected with a disease of some kind. Then a while later a friend of mine, who was interested in martial arts came to me and asked my advise, and I told him to go look around and see what is out there. Well, he called me a couple of days later, he told me that he a school and instantly he was approached with a huge contract (right then I knew what school he was talking about)!!!! The instructor proceed to give him 20 questions and when my friend told him that he was just looking around the instructor proceed to use my friend as a demonstration dummy without his permission. Luckily my friend got out of there before the instructor could do any more damage then what he had already........... *



This was *classic* Chung Moo Do intimidation strategy in the early-to-mid 90's and possibly late 80's as well.  This franchise of schools (yes, it was definitely a franchise) was the poster-child for legalized dojo-bashing.  Many of the schools would promise the moon to get you to sign on the dotted line.  Once you did, they would do their best to milk you for every cent you had, and then some.

There are MANY horror stories of instructors physically abusing students who wouldn't sign more expensive contracts.  There are equally as many stories of instructors stalking and threatening students who finally got the nerve to leave.

The system and it's founder, 'Chung Su Nim' "Iron" Kim, were investigated for cult-like behavior.  There was a lot of evidence found that many of their schools actively brainwashed their students.  Students were made to worship Kim.  Students were forced to send Kim monetary 'gifts' several times a year.  The schools wormed their way into the students' private lives, even to the point of controlling their love lives.

I'm glad you and your friend were wise enough not to sign the contract.  It's unfortunate your friend was abused, but he is lucky that it went no further than that.

From what I've seen, there do seem to be a couple of schools that did not resort to these money-grabbing tactics.  However, the martial art taught in those schools, unfortunately, is...well, to put it bluntly...crap.

Eventually, Kim was found guilty of not reporting all of his income...the various monetary 'gifts' and the cash payments that were demanded of many CMD students.  Most of the schools with questionable practices (business and martial) have since shut down, thankfully.

As much as I dislike Weasely, CMD was a far greater insult to all serious martial artists, everywhere.  Everything bad about the martial arts; every horror story you can think of, existed in CMD.

Cthulhu


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## Cthulhu

I went digging for some statements from former members and found a very good one that sums everything up nicely.  Remember, this is from someone who managed to get out of CMD.  Prepare to be disgusted:

CMD Horror Store 

Cthulhu


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## Bob

I never heard of that organization. Thanks for the info!!!
That school I experienced did not  have that name, but sure followed the same ideologies as CMD. I remember watching the instructor smack the students upside the head if they didn't jump high enough. I walked in there because I had to see the instructor who claimed to be a master in all those disciplines.... 
It was a Korean ran school too. Interesting!!!!!!!!! 
Thanks, and you are right it was disgusting......
Bob


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## Cthulhu

No problem.  I consider it a duty to inform others of bad martial arts schools.

Some CMD schools changed their name to Oom Yung Do, while still others use both names.  There have been a few schools who left the organization and changed their name altogether, though they still teach much of the same material.

Here's another person who I've heard called a scam artist by a couple of people I respect:  Richard Clear, a Pentjak Silat 'master' located in Tampa, FL.

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD

I get concerned about real names although I have mentioned Weasly. I guess he just gets me in a very real way. Anyway have you seen this Silat man. Just checking because I have seen many people not understand what they see and chock it up as a fraud because they didn't get it. Not saying that's the case here but curious. If he is I would like to know in what way he is. Can you elaborate ?


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## IFAJKD

Cthulhu: Is the CMD school an off shoot of Chun Moo Quan. That school here is quite a scam and borders on cultish. Many crazy things. They even infiltrate new schools to check them out. Often there upper students do this. I got an oppurtunity from my Instructor back in the day, to blast one in class after we found out who he was and why he was there.  and it was .....well....a blast. :rofl:


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## Cthulhu

Yep! CMD also used the name Chung Moo Quan, back in the day!  You got to knock one of them around?  I'm so jealous 

I forgot all about that name.  I believe they used to call themselves CMD/CMQ interchangeably, then it eventually became CMD/Oom Yung Do.  If you notice their ads, the names CMD/CMQ/and possibly OYD are all registered trademarks (or are supposedly...they've lied about so many other things).  I tend to be wary of any martial art that registers the name of the style as a trademark.  Why would someone do that?  Money.

If you haven't already, IFAJKD, check out that link I posted a couple of posts back.  It's the stuff us martial arts parents tell their kids to make them behave: "If you don't eat your peas, I'm signing you up for CMQ/CMD/OYD."

"No Daddy!  NOOOoooooooo!  I'll eat the peas!"

This is the first I've heard of them going to other schools.  I know many other instructors went to visit them, but I don't recall any stories of dojo-bashing.  Richard Clear, however...

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD

I don't know about there but in Minnesota we have called them "kick in's". We thought we would deal with them first and one night while sparring I got the nod. He was a jerk and we never saw or heard from him again. Yeah it was fun. There is NO place for that kind of thing as far as I am concerned.


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## Jim M

I've never heard of these guys either but thanks for the info.  I've read this string and I have a few comments.

I didn't know Joe Lewis claimed to teach JKD.  I've been to one of his seminars back in the 80's and I thought the guy had alot to teach in his own right.  One seminar certainly does not make me an expert on the subject and that was about 15 years ago.  In my opinion Joe Lewis is an opinionated egotist with the skill to back up his extreme statements.  Again, this was a long time ago and things may have changed.  

The biggest scam that I heard of was an "instructor" outside of Philadelphia.  The guy was studying TKD for a few years and failed his black belt test due to inability to perform a required break.  Anyway, the guy got into a conflict with the instuctor over this and quit the school.  Less than a year later, the same guy opens a school in a nearby town, except now he's claiming to be a 7th Dan (less than a year ago he was a brown belt that failed his 1st Dan test).  As a kenpo orange belt I had the opportunity to spar one of his brown belt.  It's sad what some people get tricked into paying money to learn.

Jim


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## Rob_Broad

I know of two great scams. 

The first and one of my favorites is Tracy Kenpo?  Who does Al Tracy think he is.  He stabbed Ed Parker in the back before he got his Black Belt.  He preached for yrs that his stuff was superior to the Ed Parker System.  He then proceeded to tell everybody that he and Ed Parker were good friends, and that they were collaborating before Grand Master Parker on a video series.  Yes Ed Parker started his series of video tapes, but his last article to a magazine he put the Tracys down.  he said Tracys Kenpo?  After Master Parker passed away the Tracy's created some B.S.  history about their lineage.

Come on people.  These guys are on the same business level as Chung Moo Do/Quan  whatever they want to call themselves this week.  And techniqually they are only one step above that.

The second great scam is being asked to buy a school to stop it from closing.  I was asked by a representative of one of the larger kenpo associations to buy ht eschool in which I trained.  If I did not buy it, it would have closed, and many people would have had no place to train.  My fiance and I at the time bought the school, we followed the directions to running the school as per the directions of the local head of the organization.  We paid tons of money for everything from, private lessons, to bringing in the local rep for seminars, to having him oversee all the gradings.  When I got tired of paying for everything under the sun the local rep, endorsed the person I bought the school from to open a new school.  Then all my students were contacted by phone and told that if they wanted to continue taking Kenpo then they had to go to a new school.  Most of those people were intimidated in to going to the new school.  Little did they care that the quality of instruction at the new school was sub standard.  People are easily swayed by a little flash and the guy who screwed me out of my school, has done it to others.  To me that is a big scam.

I feel so used, I didn't even get a kiss good night.


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## Cthulhu

That's the first I've heard of that type of scam, Rob.  

By the way, I'm sure Gou would give you a goodnight kiss :rofl:

Would it have been possible to find out who was calling your students?  If it was from this organization, then you may have been able to take legal action.

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad

Gou actually used to train at the school, I wa affiliated with.  The students were told s that if they want to keep trainng in pressure points as well as their kenpo training they would have to go to the new school.  The person who had his staff do all the calling knew what he was doing, it has happened to 3 schools that I have heard of so far.  It is fine, the people who went off to trin inthe new school are still using a raquetball court for their training area 2 times a week.  Many are dissatisfied, and have been calling me  to open up again and teach them.  I will not do this.  I told the people what wa going to happen but they were blinded by the flash.  

The person I bought the school from was going t shut it down because he was having a hard time making it and work mesh.  He didn't care that these people would have no place to train and no one to teach them.  Then when the school was prospering and I was tired of paying thru the nose, he and the district rep put their heads together and open a new school, and i get the shaft.

The people who are dissatisfied now will have made their bed and will now have to lie in it.  It took months to break my people fo the Karate Mom/Mc Dojo thing and I don't want the headache from them again.  If I choose to open a new school again it, I will not have any of these people as student again.  I know it sounds petty, but I lost everything in this situation.  Therefore I will choose to accept as students from now on.  I now will be more selective as to I will allow as students.


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## GouRonin

Leave me outa this one!


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## Rob_Broad

I wasn't trying to implicate you in this one Gou, but with the comment that you would kiss me and make it better I was stating that you knew the story already.

Who knows maybe one day you'll return to that school.  I wouldn't want to cause any problems for you.


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## GouRonin

I doubt I'll go back. But what I was referring to was Chuggathoo's idea that I'd kiss you. Ah ha ha ha!


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## Rob_Broad

I'll breath a big sigh of relief now.


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## IFAJKD

would somebody please kiss Gou or this web site will have to close down:rofl:


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## Rob_Broad

Gou isa friend and all, but I'll risk it closing down.  No webiste is worth me kissing a man.  Sorry Gou.


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## Nate_Hoopes

Just a quick FYI Al tracy has his black belt diploma from ed parker on his website, the site wasnt designed well so im still trying to find it, once i do ill post the link


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## Nate_Hoopes

http://www.tracyskarate.com/CONTROVERSY/Shodan.htm

I take Tracy Kenpo, and i like it, maybe mr. tracy claimed he was the best before i started but he dosent try to make that impression now, and at least he can say that he DID train with Ed Parker, something that many people claim to have done but cant come close to proving.


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## Rob_Broad

I have seen Al Tracy's Black Belt certificate on line.  And if you read the whole story about it you will know that When Ed Parker came back from Hawaii the Tracy's were to test in from of several Black Belts.  Parker did not want them to test but it was put before a panel of Black Belts which Ed Parker sat on.  He signed the certificate but he is not the one who promoted them to Black Belt.


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## GouRonin

Kaith made me promise to stop making fun of TKD and mentioning nudie bars.

So I won't.

I've seen Rob anyway. I'm not gay but if I was...I'm sure I could do better. Ah ha ha ha!
:rofl:


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## Rob_Broad

Gee Thanks Gou!

Besides your breasts are too small.


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## Bob Hubbard

Rob - Not even if he brushed real good?  :rofl: 

Nate - I know what you mean about his site.  Went there a while back looking for Kenpo info for a client of mine.  Was a bit dated in design..but I've seen alot worse! 

Rob - can you post a link?

I've heard various stories, had nothing substantial.  I think that while there may be a "difference in opinion" between the Parker and Tracy camps, I don't believe that Mr. Tracy belongs in the scam catagory... I mean, it's not like CMD.  We've got a Tracy school near me, they seem like a decent bunch.


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## Rob_Broad

Do as you wish.  I had just been P.O.'d by a Tracy member and I was venting about my wasted years.


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## GouRonin

Nothing is ever really wasted Rob. It was something you did and enjoyed while you did it. Then you moved on. People should always be moving in some direction. Enjoy what you are doing now as later it will be something else.

P.S. - Stop trying to get me to talk about boobies. I won't do it.


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## Rob_Broad

I guess I will try and behave then.  We'll talk about breasts at the ballet.


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## chungmoowarrior

Grandmaster "Iron" Kim is a great man! He's achieved a level of being that no other human alive is at through Chung Moo Doe! The instructors that caused the legal trouble set up Kim because they were jealous of him!


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *Grandmaster "Iron" Kim is a great man! He's achieved a level of being that no other human alive is at through Chung Moo Doe! The instructors that caused the legal trouble set up Kim because they were jealous of him! *



No, he achieved a level of fraudulent income that few other humans alive have attained.  Then he got caught.

What caused Kim's legal troubles was not his instructors, but Kim's insistance that he be paid in cash.  Kim's requirement of sending him cash 'gifts' every holiday and on his birthday.  Kim's false bookkeeping that had him and his instructors leaving out zeroes in their books (ie, $5,000 becomes $50.00).  Kim's attempted brainwashing of numerous students.  Kim's encouragement of strong-arm tactics (extortion) to get students to sign contracts for ever-escalating fees.

I could go on.  Unfortunately, you're either a very annoying troll or one of the students that were successfully brainwashed.

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *Grandmaster "Iron" Kim is a great man! He's achieved a level of being that no other human alive is at through Chung Moo Doe! The instructors that caused the legal trouble set up Kim because they were jealous of him! *



Alright dude you are telling us one of the greatest jokes ever or you are the joke.  I read your profile.  3yrs and secomnd dan, you know if you slipped him a few more dollars you could have been a 3rd dan by now.

I really hope this was your attempt at humor, if not you proabably enjoyed riding the little bus to school each day, and got to wear a hockey helmet even when you were not on the ice.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *Grandmaster "Iron" Kim is a great man! He's achieved a level of being that no other human alive is at through Chung Moo Doe! The instructors that caused the legal trouble set up Kim because they were jealous of him! *



Sounds good. I believe you.

Hey, wanna randori?
:shrug:


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Gou Ronin_
> 
> Hey, wanna randori?




Okay, enlighten me _again_ ... what is randori?


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## Rob_Broad

Randori is grappling.  Or for the southerner wrastlin or scufflin or tusslin.


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Rob Broad_
> Randori is grappling. Or for the southerner wrastlin or scufflin or tusslin.




ROFL .. thanks for the info, and your commentary.  :rofl: 

Have any of you ever hosted, or been to a hosted grappling
seminar?  My instructor said he'd like to bring in a guy to
teach some grappling.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Have any of you ever hosted, or been to a hosted grappling seminar?*



I went to a BJJ seminar by Richard Beaupit at Mr. Hartman's and will be attending a BJJ seminar by Wellington "Megaton" Dias next week. I enjoyed and learned from Mr. Beaupit's seminar.


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## Rubber Ducky

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Randori is grappling.  Or for the southerner wrastlin or scufflin or tusslin. *



Rob, "randori" means "chaotic practice" and it's not just grappling.  It's really any kind of loose sparring within the rules of your system.  Karate guys can do "randori" as well, but they usually won't call it that 

Pierre


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Rubber Ducky _
> *Rob, "randori" means "chaotic practice" and it's not just grappling.  It's really any kind of loose sparring within the rules of your system.  Karate guys can do "randori" as well, but they usually won't call it that *



Thanx Pierre. I used to call it "knuckles & skulls" but people don't like that...

Oh I hope I get a chung mood doe practitioner for easter!


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## islandtime

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *What's the best scam you ever heard of in the martial arts? The best one I ever heard of was a guy who tacked 250.00$ onto the black belt test if the person wanted to be registered as a weapon with the police. It was pure scam but people paid for it and believed in it too.
> 
> So what do you all think of some good scams people pull on their students? Special clubs? Etc etc...name them off!
> :soapbox: *



............................

Was that "Count Dante" 



GEne


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by islandtime _
> *Was that "Count Dante" *



He's been discussed here in great detail; see also the Chicago Dojo Wars thread and some of the Ashida Kim discussions (use the Search facility). The Chicago Dojo Wars thread includes a link to a Black Belt magazine article discussing the incident in which one of his students died.


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## Rubber Ducky

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *
> 
> Thanx Pierre. I used to call it "knuckles & skulls" but people don't like that...
> 
> Oh I hope I get a chung mood doe practitioner for easter!
> *



Sorry I missed this before.

Anyhow, "knuckles and skulls" is better than "knees and nuts", maybe offer them a choice next time?

Pierre


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## disciple

what language is "randori"?

salute
:asian:


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## KumaSan

Japanese. Like Rubber Ducky said, it means either "free exercise" or "chaotic practice". Or something along those lines. I think this is similar to "Gan sao" (I think) in either Cantonese or Mandarin (also not sure).


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by KumaSan _
> 
> *I think this is similar to "Gan sao" (I think) in either Cantonese or Mandarin (also not sure). *



What arts use _Gan sao_ and how?

(Maybe it'd be best to move the answer to the Chinese Martial Arts forum!)


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## KumaSan

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *(Maybe it'd be best to move the answer to the Chinese Martial Arts forum!) *



I would if I had a real answer. It's just another piece of useless trivia floating around in my head, from who knows where. I probably read it in some book or magazine years ago.


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## TLH3rdDan

ok here is one for ya not really a scam just someone to look out for if he shows up in your town.... the guys name is roger haygood and he claims to be the only person in the united states to teach a very rare form of southern mantis kung fu... which i have not been able to find out if his claim is real or not... but what he does is rents a house and begins to find a few students and gets them to take classes from him then ends up moving them in with him and making them fix up his house and worship the old chinese gods and basicly brain washes them... of course while they are there they get the privealge of having the hell beat out of them on a daily basis and are only allowed to eat small amounts of rice... yes i know it sounds a bit far fetched but i had one of them come into my sifu's school before it closed and he looked like he had been run over with a car it was that bad and he said thats the way they train every day and that he was not allowed to show any techniques from the style due to an oath he had taken.... but this guy haygood is a nut case.... an example of his lunacy is that he sharpens his finger nails to points and dips them in herbs to hard them and then supposedly covers them in some kind of poison as a form of self defense lol dont know if thats true or not but that came from his former student... and not soon after this haygood left the nashville area as far as i know so be on the look out and he is a real guy i know the 2 guys in this area that teach mantis for real know of him... this guy haygood also does alot of the fake chi tricks... but thought i would let you guys in on that one...


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## Cthulhu

Thanks for that head's up, TLH3rdDan!  Limited nourishment, physical harm, oaths of secrecy...sounds like brainwashing to me.

Cthulhu


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## kickyou

He Sounds like the next David Koresh.Only with a martial atr twist.Very disturbing


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## Pyrael

whats Chung Moo Do?


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## Bob Hubbard

Use the search feature in the top right of the screen.  You'll find several interesting and rather heated discussions on it.

Very brief summary - a very dangerous (to you) style, that some have said borders more on cult than art.

:asian:


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## kickyou

Chung Moo Do simply put is insanity.Nothing more Nothing less.


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## tarabos

i was really surprised to see you post the truth about the Tracys. i have heard all the controversey and know the story, but i've never come out and said it because tracy people just get all in a huff and it's all for nothing really. plus, i wasn't there so i can't say completely for sure what the truth is, but after looking at the system some time ago, it seems like it's the truth.

<rant>

you want scams?

1. KravMaga: not so much a scam, but just bad "martial arts"...i know they don't like to be called a martial art, so bad whatever the hell they are. they are also arrogant SOBs. pretty much study this video you get from napma and take this 2 or 3 week course and you too can teach KravMaga at your McDojo.

2. SCARS: probably the most idiotic, arrogant, style/system bashing jerks around. they have mastered the art of bashing all martial arts in general, but that's about it. and the endless claims of the head man jerry peterson training navy seals is ridiculous.

3. DEFENDO: listen to the name..."DEFENDO"....need i say more? it's crap.

</rant>


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## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> ROFL .. thanks for the info, and your commentary.  :rofl:
> 
> Have any of you ever hosted, or been to a hosted grappling
> seminar?  My instructor said he'd like to bring in a guy to
> teach some grappling. *



We have been to some in K.C. unfortunately I was not able to attend.  It was a Gracie Seminar. We also hold quite a few at our studio.

Michael


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## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> Thanx Pierre. I used to call it "knuckles & skulls" but people don't like that...
> 
> Oh I hope I get a chung mood doe practitioner for easter!
> *



:rofl: 
Michael


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## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan _
> 
> *ok here is one for ya not really a scam just someone to look out for if he shows up in your town.... the guys name is roger haygood and he claims to be the only person in the united states to teach a very rare form of southern mantis kung fu... which i have not been able to find out if his claim is real or not... but what he does is rents a house and begins to find a few students and gets them to take classes from him then ends up moving them in with him and making them fix up his house and worship the old chinese gods and basicly brain washes them... of course while they are there they get the privealge of having the hell beat out of them on a daily basis and are only allowed to eat small amounts of rice... yes i know it sounds a bit far fetched but i had one of them come into my sifu's school before it closed and he looked like he had been run over with a car it was that bad and he said thats the way they train every day and that he was not allowed to show any techniques from the style due to an oath he had taken.... but this guy haygood is a nut case.... an example of his lunacy is that he sharpens his finger nails to points and dips them in herbs to hard them and then supposedly covers them in some kind of poison as a form of self defense lol dont know if thats true or not but that came from his former student... and not soon after this haygood left the nashville area as far as i know so be on the look out and he is a real guy i know the 2 guys in this area that teach mantis for real know of him... this guy haygood also does alot of the fake chi tricks... but thought i would let you guys in on that one... *



Ok that name sounds too familiar, do you have some locations of where he had schools?  There is a local school that has Dojo Rats for real.  He makes some of his students sleep in the basement part of the week.  A lot that I have heard is hearsay, though.  I am meeting with an old friend this week that has been studying there for a year maybe I can get the real scoop.

Michael


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## GouRonin

While admittedly outdated it's based on solid stuff, basically the Fairbairn-Sykes-Applegate military hand to hand material. These three men developed and used this material in Shanghai in a time when it proved itself. I do not know what the Defendo guys are doing with it or how they teach it but it is solid material as they should have got it, However, what they have done with it I do not know.

The Krav Maga that is the USA is much different than the stuff that started it all. It is similar but watered down for McConsumption. However. I have met and know of some practitioners that can use it effectively. However they learned it in Europe.

I would think that these are good examples of styles where the artists are important to making it effective.


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## tarabos

that's true of any style/art though....


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## freddytai

Gracie Jiu jitsu is a great grappling art, no argument there. Well I was studying at a (unnamed) academy (in Las Vegas NV). The head/owner/GM of the school found out that I had done MA for sometime and wanted to open a school in the future. Well As the wise man that he is he say a opportunity to strike. He called me into his office and sat me down. He proceeded to tell me how much money I can make by teaching RGJJ. And that he would let me use his name for a % of the bussiness. He referred to me as HIS retirement. I could get all of this wonderful knowledge and name along witha bag of chips for a mere $10,000.00 US. Oh I was stoked, he was fireing my bubble in some hot steam baby. It made my mouth water to think how much money I could give him, salivate baby. We're talking 20-25% FOR LIFE. For his closing argument, to sweeten the pot that is. He said After I pay him the 10 grand for my BLUE belt he will teach me for the % of my school. And not to worry about any contract's, I could trust him. Sweeeeeeeeet!!!!!!!!!!


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## GouRonin

I sense..._sarcasm_...


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## Pyrael

:rofl:


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## RCastillo

I 'm disapointed in what I read about what peole are saying about the Tracy organization.

This is something that I still see on another site(among other things) that some of you may frequent, and I felt things were different here.

While I'm only 47, I can only look at what's happening now. Whatever happened between the Seniors, and their issues, is apart of their history, and time has distorted much, I'm sure. Plus, there will always be two sides.

Yes, people can say what they want, and they will, but my feeling needs to be brought out as well.

I hope this will not be consistant here.


 :asian:


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## Rob_Broad

Ricardo

I am the one that made the disparaging remarks about the Tracy system and they are my feeling from my dealing with their organization.  As I say to each their own.  But I have also said in other posts that in my opinion Tracy kenpo is better than no kenpo at all.


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## jdmills

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan _
> *ok here is one for ya not really a scam just someone to look out for if he shows up in your town.... the guys name is roger haygood and he claims to be the only person in the united states to teach a very rare form of southern mantis kung fu... which i have not been able to find out if his claim is real or not... but what he does is rents a house and begins to find a few students and gets them to take classes from him then ends up moving them in with him and making them fix up his house and worship the old chinese gods and basicly brain washes them... of course while they are there they get the privealge of having the hell beat out of them on a daily basis and are only allowed to eat small amounts of rice... yes i know it sounds a bit far fetched but i had one of them come into my sifu's school before it closed and he looked like he had been run over with a car it was that bad and he said thats the way they train every day and that he was not allowed to show any techniques from the style due to an oath he had taken.... but this guy haygood is a nut case.... an example of his lunacy is that he sharpens his finger nails to points and dips them in herbs to hard them and then supposedly covers them in some kind of poison as a form of self defense lol dont know if thats true or not but that came from his former student... and not soon after this haygood left the nashville area as far as i know so be on the look out and he is a real guy i know the 2 guys in this area that teach mantis for real know of him... this guy haygood also does alot of the fake chi tricks... but thought i would let you guys in on that one... *



Sounds like this guy should quit the martial arts and go into the cosmetic industry.  I know women who would pay big bucks for a good nail hardener.

Jim


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Ricardo
> 
> I am the one that made the disparaging remarks about the Tracy system and they are my feeling from my dealing with their organization.  As I say to each their own.  But I have also said in other posts that in my opinion Tracy kenpo is better than no kenpo at all. *



Rob, don't worry about it. I shoulda just read it, and went on my way. I've let my skin get alittle thicker since then(this was written sometime back)
I do understand your feelings though, it happens.

Peace:asian:


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Rob, don't worry about it. I shoulda just read it, and went on my way. I've let my skin get alittle thicker since then(this was written sometime back)
> I do understand your feelings though, it happens.
> 
> Peace:asian: *



But.......BRING ON THE GOLDENDRAGON, I WANT HIS TITLE! 

QUIT HIDING, QUIT RUNNING, FACE ME!:boxing:


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## Withered Soul

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan_
> *an example of his lunacy is that he sharpens his finger nails to points and dips them in herbs to hard them and then supposedly covers them in some kind of poison as a form of self defense lol  *



Better be careful he doesn't pick his nose!


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## Cryozombie

The best Scam?

The Ashida Kim $10,000.00 challenge.

He's the ONE AND ONLY TRUE NINJA right? BUT...

If you want to fight him, its gonna cost you $25,000.00 to get him to show up, Plus $10,000.00 to fight him. 

PLUS it must be clearly labled as a SPORTING EVENT and must be controlled from local sports authorities and he gets to keep 1/2 the take from the door as well.

And Ashida Kim will be declared the winner in the event of a 5-second pinfall.  

What a Joke.


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## theletch1

Here's one for ya.  An internatianal chain of schools that has a once a year seminar in Las Vegas that will run you about 1500.00.
You must complete at least one of these seminars before going for black belt.  The only way to test for black is to go to this seminar (for 1500.00).  Get ill, injured or the "board" just decides that you do not have the necessary spirit for black belt and you have to come back again the following year (for another 1500.00).
Each state has a regional chief instructor, all instructors will follow his direction, to include what theu can and cannot teach, what activities they can and cannot do with their students outside the school.  Sparring and grappling tournaments are closed to only the individuals in that style and students are prohibited from competing in open tournaments.  Any equipment that must be ordered must be ordered through the regional chief and he keeps the discount given for large orders.:shrug:


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## jukado1

My name is bob rosenbaum, i started martial arts in 1959, and recieved my blackbelt in jukado self-defense teaching in 1966.  i'm sorry to be responding 14 months late, but i've just discoverd this site, and wanted to correct some misinformation about Joe Lewis.  i began training with Joe in 1968, while he was working with Bruce Lee! at that time he would incorperate some of Bruces principles in with my training program. for those who are unfamilar with Joe Lewis's karate history, Joe was already a karate champion before Bruce Lee sought out Joe, Mike Stone and Chuck Norris, to train with him. Joe was a top karate fighter long before he met Bruce Lee. Joe and Bruce worked on footwork, timing, initial movement and fighting principles, Bruce used joe to test and prove his fighting theories. during this period that they were training togother, Joe totaly dominated sport karate.  Joe Lewis was the best fighter that Bruce ever worked with, and to say that Joe can not teach and grade the people he trains shows a lack of knowldge of jkd history, Joe Lewis's history, and Bruce Lee's history.  Bruce taught each of his students differently, and when it comes to fighting knowledge of the Bruce Lee system none were superior to Joe Lewis.  thank you for your time.


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> * He not only is certified but in all three certifications Bruce has ever given. He is the ONLY one to be able to claim that.  Bruce once told him that "it didn't matter how good he was, Taky was still his seinor*




I know this is way late but I have an interesting link for you.

First, the three certifications we are talking about are First Rank, Second Rank and Third Rank???

Second, Did Dan Inosanto meet Bruce Lee at the Long Beech Internationals in 1964?

Third, heres a link with a James Lees "Third Rank" certification from the Jun Fan Gung-Fu Institute dated 3/4/1964! 

If Dan met Bruce 1964 and and James was already 3rd Rank in 1964 that would make James Dans senior as well. Click the link and then on the left side 0f the James Lee homepage click the link that reads "certificate".

http://oakland.jkd.com.hk/
:asian:


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## pesilat

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I know this is way late but I have an interesting link for you.
> 
> First, the three certifications we are talking about are First Rank, Second Rank and Third Rank???
> 
> Second, Did Dan Inosanto meet Bruce Lee at the Long Beech Internationals in 1964?
> 
> Third, heres a link with a James Lees "Third Rank" certification from the Jun Fan Gung-Fu Institute dated 3/4/1964!
> 
> If Dan met Bruce 1964 and and James was already 3rd Rank in 1964 that would make James Dans senior as well. Click the link and then on the left side 0f the James Lee homepage click the link that reads "certificate".
> 
> http://oakland.jkd.com.hk/
> :asian: *



No. Not First, Second, and Third Ranks within JKD. This relates to Dan being the only person who was certified to teach each of the three systems that Bruce taught. These being: Tao of Chinese Gung Fu, Jun Fan Gung Fu, Jeet Kune Do

Dan is the only person to have received instructor rank in all three of these.

Mike


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *No. Not First, Second, and Third Ranks within JKD. This relates to Dan being the only person who was certified to teach each of the three systems that Bruce taught. These being: Tao of Chinese Gung Fu, Jun Fan Gung Fu, Jeet Kune Do
> 
> Dan is the only person to have received instructor rank in all three of these.
> 
> Mike *



I see. I thought it was interesting that James reached 3rd rank by 1964 though. That was pretty early on.


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## pesilat

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I see. I thought it was interesting that James reached 3rd rank by 1964 though. That was pretty early on. *



Yes. But he and James had known each other and trained together since '62 and James was a highly accomplished MAist before meeting Bruce.

Mike


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## SPP333

I've been a Tracy student for about six years now, and before that I've studied American Kenpo and various other arts.  I've known Mark Tracy, Al's son for almost 15 years.  To clear one thing up that I've read on this thread, Al Tracy's first degree black belt promotion was NOT done before any panel of blackbelts, there were only a handfull of blackbelts at the time.  His 3rd degree was before a panel and signed by Ed Parker.  His first promotion was listed in Ed Parkers original "Infinate insights into Kenpo."  Mr. Parker had 30+ years to dispute Al Tracy's status, but never did.  It's a little disturbing to hear someone dispute wether Parker and Tracy remained friends, when I doubt the disputer was there or knew both men.  I've heard first hand from Ed Parker's wife that the Tracy brothers both remained in contact with Parker, and had dinner with him and attended a ball-game only a few months before his death.  It's easy to claim Ed Parker's thoughts about the Tracy's now that Mr. Parker is no longer with us.  It's also strange to hear someone voice doubts about the Tracy system, when it contains nearly all of the techniques of American Kenpo, plus a couple of hundred more.  Mr. Parker trusted Al Tracy enough to have him teach most of his beginning students, and perform nearly all of the breaking demos for him.  This "stabbing in the back," and "breaking away," from Parker came about because Al Tracy simply wished to stay true to the original kenpo system taught to him by Parker.  The same system Parker learned from Prof. Chow.  Although I've heard Al Tracy speak of his system as the most complete authentic "traditional" kenpo, I've never heard him contend it was better, or say anything negative about Mr. Parker.  There probably was some contentions between the 2 in the past, but these things are in the past.  Mr. Tracy has a way of "calling out," people who claim a lot of things about Mr. Parker, and in doing so has been involved in a lot of nonsense and controversy.  It sounds like the person who posted these things has had a bad experience with the Tracy organization, and that is unfortunate.  Say what you will about the Tracy family, but I don't think it's fair to lay doubt about his credentials when you weren't there and don't know all sides of the story.  With his involvement in the Gathering of Eagles 1 &2 events, Mr. Tracy has done a lot in recent years to try to end the "politics" of kenpo, and has done a lot for the promotion of the art of kenpo.  With that said, I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience with the Tracy organization, and hope you don't have bad feelings toward all of the people involved in the organization.


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## arnisador

Anyone else have a favorite martial arts scam?


----------

