# Snobs



## Kirk (Jun 5, 2002)

These are the type of snobs I've run into so far in my kenpo 
training:


*1.  The Belt Snob* 
Anyone in your school not like training with someone of a lower
rank?  I'm not talking black training with yellow, I'm talking purple
thinking he's too good to workout with orange.  

*2.  The Size Snob* 
I don't know about your schools, but there's a couple small guys
in my school that feel they have something to prove.  They wail
with a lot less control and a lot more intensity when working
techniques.  It's almost like they WANT to hurt a bigger guy, so
they go back and tell their buddies about it.  One little guy in
my school wails on a 60-65 year old woman, because she's
bigger than he is!  She begs him not to, yet HE'S A SNOB!  When
I've worked with this individual, he's cracked me in the mouth
when working FLOW DRILLS!  I felt like kickin' his little a$$, but
he's a higher rank than me, and also a belt snob.  He was HIGHLY
ticked that our instructor told him to work with me.

*2.  The "I know better than you" Snob* 
Instructor shows us all how to do a tech for the first time, all at
the same time ... this particular snob interprets what was said
differently than others, yet refuses to ask for clarification, and
demands that all do the tech HIS/HER way.  This is a common
practice among belt snobs.  One example is when we were
told, "Hit your targets.  You don't want to practice hitting someone
in the  chest, when you're supposed to hit them in the chin.  If
you practice that way, then you'll perform it that way.  Now, this
doesn't mean hurt each other!  This means make contact with the
area you're supposed to hit".  To me, this means if I'm 
supposed to hit you with a straight punch to the jaw, then my
knuckles should TOUCH  your jaw.  One snob felt that it meant
to press your knuckles to the jaw, and then violently push your
jaw back 2 feet.  The aforementioned belt and size snob is also
an "I know better than you" snob, and is the one doing this.


If a snob takes on one of the three traits mentioned above, 
they're easy to blow off or ignore.  But the one little bastard
that has chosen to encompass all 3 (IMO) is REALLY getting
on my nerves.  I'm nursing a sore elbow tonight because HE
felt he had something to prove when we were working a
Glancing Salute variation.  I've accidentally hurt guys at the
school, and they've accidentally hurt me .. we all blow it off ...
but I'm tired of this scrawny monkey with an attitude going off
on me!   

I outweigh the guy by like 180 pounds, and he's 2 belts above
me.  The little bastard doesn't have enough skill (yet) to be a
snob!  I'm half tempted to pound the heck out him!!!  If you're
sensing a hostile attitude from ... GO WITH IT, you're right!  Am I 
wrong to feel this way?


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## Kalicombat (Jun 5, 2002)

Kirk,
    Ive had a similar situation before, some years ago. I think your instructor should pick up on this, and if not, no harm in calling it to his attention. Also, I am of the thought that direct confrontation is the best remedy for this. Take this little fella aside, tell him how you feel, and explain that lack of control while doing techniques, either incidentally or purposefully can run both ways. Let him know that you are not impressed by his immaturity and lack of consideration, and that if any "accidents" happen again, regardless of his rank, size, etc., that you will pummel his little a$$.

Like always, just my opinion,
Gary Catherman


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## Klondike93 (Jun 5, 2002)

Interesting use of snob. I've seen some of these that you mention as well.

There was a recent incident with myself and very large yellow belt at the kenpo school.
We were working on bear hug escapes and he was putting up quite a fight. I "showed" that I could scoop kick him in the groin but he wouldn't let up. Then I "showed" I could drive my heel into his knees, still wouldn't let up. Then I tried the move we were working on, dropping to a knee and rolling over one shoulder and have them go over you and land under you. He decided he would flair backwards with his feet and put me flat on my face. Well I did a face plant on the mat putting a nice hole in my lip and jacking up my left wrist too. I was a little ticked about the whole thing and got to talking to a brown belt about it as he got hurt too. He was a little mad then figured we should just let him know if he wants to make it a little more real we can do that, or we can go with what we're learning and no one gets hurt. Makes sense, and I figured it was my fault as well for fixating on making one thing work and not trying something else. So I learned something too.  Sorry for so long but your story kind of sounded familiar.

Talk to your instructor and let him know there is a student that's some what dissrespectfull to others especially lower ranks. He might just tell you to beat the tar out of him, at least that's what we did in TKD when I was there.  Good luck.


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 5, 2002)

You are starting to sound like me!:rofl: 

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Jun 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *These are the type of snobs I've run into so far in my kenpo
> training:
> ...




Teach that twerp a lesson. He needs to show respect, regardless of his rank. (Especially when he's in someone elses HOUSE!

It's time for  that person be humbled, for his own sake!:samurai:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 5, 2002)

Ricardo is sounding like me as well....... Arggggggggggg Texas is being converted.....

:redcaptur 

:rofl:


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## RCastillo (Jun 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> 
> *Kirk,
> Ive had a similar situation before, some years ago. I think your instructor should pick up on this, and if not, no harm in calling it to his attention. Also, I am of the thought that direct confrontation is the best remedy for this. Take this little fella aside, tell him how you feel, and explain that lack of control while doing techniques, either incidentally or purposefully can run both ways. Let him know that you are not impressed by his immaturity and lack of consideration, and that if any "accidents" happen again, regardless of his rank, size, etc., that you will pummel his little a$$.
> ...



Hey Gary, is that what you have planned for me in the future?


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## Kalicombat (Jun 6, 2002)

Ricardo, LOL!! We can try to be civil,.....I think. Hey, the overtime is subsiding after this weekend, so we NEED to hook up. Call me or email me and lets do this.


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## RCastillo (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> 
> *Ricardo, LOL!! We can try to be civil,.....I think. Hey, the overtime is subsiding after this weekend, so we NEED to hook up. Call me or email me and lets do this. *



Man, I'm getting worried now. What do we call this, The fight of the Golden Ones?:jediduel:


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## Kalicombat (Jun 6, 2002)

Or like my kids refer to me, THE GOLDEN OLDIES!!!!!


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## Rainman (Jun 6, 2002)

:snipe2: 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)

:rofl:


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## tonbo (Jun 6, 2002)

Kirk, we had a guy kinda like your snob in one of our classes.  He was a green belt, and most of us were in the upper ranks of brown at the time.  When it came time to partner up, he would always quickly grab someone lower rank, smaller, and younger than himself.  He would do the techniques too hard, no matter how often he was reminded.  Same with sparring.  When one of the brown belts would partner with him for techniques, he would fake an asthma attack and bow out to go use his inhaler (that would take something like 20 minutes).  He would avoid sparring "upper" belts any chance he got.

On top of all this, he would *constantly* "re-phrase" what the instructor had said about a technique when working with his lower-ranked partners.  He would refuse to do things the right way if he thought he knew a better way.

Finally, the BB in charge of that class got to his limit.  One night, he personally set up the technique lines, and put all of the "heavy hitters" in the same line as this guy.  He didn't let the guy bow out for his inhaler (everyone knew he didn't have asthma--we knew for a fact), and made him start the tech line.  We also then did sparring in a similar manner:  A line, where each person got to spar people in turn.  The brown belts were instructed to give this guy a little "incentive"--not hurt him, just let him see where the distinction in belt levels was.

We did, and I think he got the message.  He stopped going harder on the lower belts/kids.....for about another week or so.  Then, he just stopped coming.

It sounds like this guy you are dealing with needs a lesson in humility.  If you get the chance to spar him, sneak a "good" shot in there once in a while.  If he is so "cool", then he will take it and not gripe.  If not, well......you get the joy of the contact, as well as the joy of watching him make an a$$ out of himself by complaining that a "lower belt" "hurt" him..... 

If all else fails, light him up a little when working techniques.  Chalk it up to your "being 2 ranks below" him.  "Oh, sorry...did I go too hard on that rib shot?  Sorry.  I guess I'll have better control when I'm *your* level.....".....

   Some of these guys, you just have to *show* the errors of their ways.....

Peace--


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 6, 2002)

Contrary to everyone who has chimed in so far, I think that such a situation does _not_ warrant a violent response.  The guy is a dumba**, but that is not a violation of anything I hold so dear that I need to fight about it -- principles, honor, life or death, right or wrong, and all that stuff.

The tone of your class is set by your instructor.  He may be the source of the problem by subtly encouraging asinine behavior.  Surely he knows what the "snob" is doing.  Watch and see how the instructor interacts with the snob.  It may be informative.

It's hard to make martial artists believe it, but sometimes problems can be solved with words instead of pain.  Try talking before you try whacking him.  Chances are, if you whack him hard enough for him to notice, he (being an immature twerp, by descriptions) will get pissed and fire back.  Then, the fight is on.  At that point, the best you can hope for is that the guy will quit coming to class, 'cause he sure as hell isn't going to learn from it.  That's great for your class, but the "snob" loses his chance to learn and grow out of it.  I know, I know, we aren't supposed to give a dangle about the "bad guy", but we still can.

Worse results are that you stop coming to class, or that your instructor kicks you both out, or that your instructor kicks just you out, or that your instructor keep both of you but sides with the "snob".

In any case, hurting him is a sloppy, uncertain, and undisciplined response, in my opinion, and contrary to what I see the martial arts as teaching us about the use of violence.  But, luckily, there are lots of opinions to choose from.

Peace,
Scott


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 6, 2002)

Snob = Insecure

This will pass in time with some proper guidence from his/her instructor. (usually)

It is the Instructor's responsibility to deal with these individuals as the Instructor sees fit using his/her's years of experience to resolve the problem.

I've run into all these types as well. Sadly some have gone on to "very high" rank and are still "snobs".

Some will learn and develope charactor and some will not.:shrug:


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## Sigung86 (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *Contrary to everyone who has chimed in so far, I think that such a situation does _not_ warrant a violent response.  The guy is a dumba**, but that is not a violation of anything I hold so dear that I need to fight about it -- principles, honor, life or death, right or wrong, and all that stuff.
> 
> ...



Talk to the instructor.  Talk to the jerk.  If the instructor doesn't straighten it out ... Bust his chops.  Most of the time people like that won't fight back if they take it once or twice themselves.

Barring the essence of decorum and good taste and an instructor who just doesn't have a clue... Find a useful school.

Dan


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## Michael Billings (Jun 6, 2002)

Scott Bonner,

Extremely mature and good response.  I think it is a reflection on the teacher when one of the students is a little out of control.  It is up to the teacher, or school owner, to set the tone for the school.  I have no problem with some contact, plus a little extra - and ask "Is this how hard you want to go?"  But only after a couple of warnings.  Then I think the Instructor needs to be involved.  

It is part of what the pledges are about, learning how to be a teacher.  Lots of people just don't get it.  Things need to be resolved in private, away from prying eyes.  Does that sound familiar?  Then it is up to the teacher to decide on an educational physical intervention or if discussing the issue was enough.

Just my approach.  It needs to come from someone representing the school, not a personal complaint from you if it is a systemic problem that is repetitive.

Ding-Ding
My 2 cents worth,
-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## tonbo (Jun 6, 2002)

Scott, I can honestly see your point.  I don't advocate smackin' snobs around just to prove a point or solve a problem, and I don't advocate violence as a first course of action.  However....

In some cases, the individual in question *has* been talked to, and more than likely, repeatedly.  If they persist in their attitude, it is often because their ego has gotten in the way, and someone or something needs to pop it before somebody "innocent" gets hurt.

In the situation I described, I will mention again, we never *hurt* the guy--we pushed his limits and let him know that if he wanted to continue, he would have to work with upper belts and those that were intimidating to him--that he couldn't always work with those smaller, weaker, or lower rank than him.  That's just the way it goes.

As a kid, I was a victim of a particular bully.  My dad's instructions to me were to ask him to stop, and be polite about it....but that if I was actually pushed, if force was used against me, to respond.  My requests always went unheeded.  Finally, one day, I was physically roughed up.  I swung back and landed only two punches, both to the midsection.  The bully never bothered me again.

Now, I'm not saying that you need to beat the guy senseless if he continues with his attitude.  However, I think that a fairly simple rule ought to be implemented:  You get as you give.  At our school, you are free to spar the upper belts any way you want.  They all start from the same point:  they will spar at slightly above your level, enough to be a challenge to you.  The deal is, the harder *you* hit, and the stronger *you* come on, the stronger or harder *they* do.  It's a measure of respect.  I would suggest that the head instructor in this case set something similar:  If this guy wants to continue going harder than he should, then he should expect someone else to tag him once in a while.  Not *hurt*, again, but "open the eyes".

Belt level shouldn't matter.  Everyone is there to train, and unless this is "Cobra Kai", and the upper students have free rein to beat the hell out of the lower, it shouldn't be tolerated.  If the instructor allows it, then perhaps that motivation should be questioned.  At any rate, I would just say that the Golden Rule applies.......and yes, ONLY after you have given plenty of verbal warning.

Sorry to ramble, but I tend to do that.....

:asian: 

Peace--


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## Kirk (Jun 6, 2002)

He's been told quite a few times.  I haven't complained about it
to my instructor, but my instructor (has limited assistants) is
often on his own when teaching, he can't see it all, all the time.
He did witness it before, and told the guy, "watch what you're
dishing out, what comes around goes around".  One lady, about
60 or 65 is there for the fitness of it all.  She admits to not being
able to take as much as "you young folks".  I saw her at least 5
times on the same day, tell this guy "now I'm an old woman, 
PLEASE go easy on me".  He doesn't.  I hate the idea of going to
my instructor with "this tiny guy is over doing it", but I guess I
will.  I can only take so much, and he's really starting to tick me
off.


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## tonbo (Jun 6, 2002)

Okay, so the guy has had verbal warnings aplenty.  Time to take it up a notch.

Maybe talk with the instructor and say something along the lines of "There is this guy that is going a bit too hard (etc.).  He has been asked to stop, and hasn't.  How would you like to handle it?"  Don't mention his name, if you don't want to.  You just don't want to go off cavalier style and whack the guy on your own, as that can turn on you if you're not careful.  However, if you mention the situation to your instructor, and he says it's okay for you to handle the situation with a "you get what you give" approach, then you can roll with that.

I would recommend in any case that you have your instructor's awareness and approval about handling the situation beforehand, more for *your* protection than anyone else's.  The last thing you need is for this idiot to take things personally and sue you, the school, and everyone else for being out of line (yeah, it could happen these days, no?).

Maybe a special "after hours" sparring session?  (Oooh, did I say that out loud?  Hehe....)

Nah, really.  See what the instructor says.  Let him make the call.  Then you can roll with it.  Takes some of the responsibility off of your shoulders.  

Peace--


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## Sigung86 (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *He's been told quite a few times.  I haven't complained about it
> to my instructor, but my instructor (has limited assistants) is
> ...



Get off of your A** and do something. Be responsible.  Everyone is trying to do the civilized thing!  Let's negotiate ... Let's show him the error of his way...

What if while we are all sitting around talking and negotiating, this inconsiderate, non-responsive, uncaring dirt bag severely injures or kills the little old lady?  Maybe you would feel better if he severely injures you, instead?  12 pounds of pressure to snap a joint.  You can't repair joints... You're stuck with it, or costly surgical replacement, that never works as good as a real joint.  Bionics are better than when the show came out, but they still aren't there.

If you don't care then sit there and take it... Otherwise deal with it.  That is part of the responsibility of being a Martial Artist, Yellow Belt or Tenth Degree Black Belt.  If something is wrong and you can make it right, and don't... How much better are you than anyone else?  If it's not part of your paradigm, as a Martial Artist, to make the world better and right wrongs, then go take up tennis.

Dan


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> He's been told quite a few times.  I haven't complained about it to my instructor, but my instructor (has limited assistants) is often on his own when teaching, he can't see it all, all the time.
> *



WEll, Kirk, if it were my studio, I would get upset at YOU for not telling me sooner.  I would want to know if someone is pressing anyone too far much less one of my "bill payer" students that is just there for the physical workout or just plain fun!!  Let me know and let me decide how to handle my student!!  

I know you must feel like a tattle tale but that is what I would expect out of you if I were your instructor.  So, by all means inform your instructor as to what you whitness and let him handle it his way.  You have a responsibility to your instructor and studio.

Just my thoughts.....
:asian: 

Dan and I don't want to have to come down there and defend our poor little ole lady unless we have to!  :rofl: :asian:


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## Sigung86 (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Dan and I don't want to have to come down there and defend our poor little ole lady unless we have to!  :rofl: :asian: *



Amen Brother!!!!!   

Dan


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## Seig (Jun 6, 2002)

from Salt Lake City just doesn't have quite the same ring to it...


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## tonbo (Jun 6, 2002)

Don't make fun of me like that!!!  I'll start takin' it personal, Seig!!

I ain't old, and I ain't a lady (wrong gender, sorry!!)....

....and the Salt Lake City part, well.....can't do much about that right now...... 

:rofl: 

Peace--


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)

tsk tsk tsk...... the little old lady was in San Antonio......... lol     Kirk is the one who is having the problem ....... not Mu tonbo hee hee


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## SHADOW (Jun 6, 2002)

HEY KIRK,LET ME START BY SAYING THE LITTLE BELT SNOB YOU SPEAK OF IS WEAK AND KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT KENPO (THE ART,PHILOSOPHY,PRINCIPLES CONCEPTS ETC!!!HOW DO I KNOW THIS WELL I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I ALSO ATTEND THE SCHOOL YOU SPEAK OF.HE'S ALWAYS THE FIRST TO TRY TO TEACH A CONCEPT OR PRINCIPLE HES MIMICED FROM MYSELF OR ONE OF THE OTHER INSTRUCTORS WHEN EITHER WE ARENT AROUND OR HE THINKS WE ARENT PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT HES DOING.HE IN NO WAY IS AN INSTRUCTOR AND KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT INSTRUCTING.SO AS AN INSTRUCTOR AND ONE WHO HATES TO SEE THE SYSTEM THAT WE TRAIN SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND AND NOT WATER DOWN IT'S TEACHINGS AND PRINCIPLES.I'LL LET YOU IN ON A LITTLE SECRET. IT'S AN OLD RULE THAT AS A YOUNG MAN YOUR PARENTS PROBABLY INSTILLED IN YOU IT GOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS"IT A PERSON HITS YOU HIT THEM BACK AND HIT THEM HARDER. NOW THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED BAD SPORTSMANSHIP BECAUSE IM NOT SAYING KNOCK HIM OUT COLD OR KNUCKLE UP WITH HIM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SCHOOL,BUT REMEMBER WHEN WE WORK TECHNIQUE LINES OR CIRCLES YOULL GET YOUR TURN SO PUT A LITTLE MORE INTO YOUR POWER PRINCIPLES WE TRY SO HARD TO INSTILL INTO YOU GUYS.ONE OF TWO THINGS WILL HAPPEN HE'LL FINALLY WAKE UP THINKING IM NOT THE MAN I THINK I AM OR HE'LL QUIT EITHER WAY THOSE OF YOU THAT ARE TEAM PLAYERS AND ARE IN IT TO BETTER THE ART AND NOT BULLY YOUR WAY THROUGH THE ART WIN. TRUST ME KIRK I THE OTHER INSTRUCTORS AND I NOTICE WHAT GOES ON AT ALL TIMES IN THAT SCHOOL AND UNFORTUNATELY HES NOT THE ONLY ONE IN THERE. KENPO BROTHER SHADOW.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)

See Kirk,

Big Brother is watching!!


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## SHADOW (Jun 6, 2002)

HEY DRAGON DONT MENTION IT REMEMBER WE ARE ALL TRYING TO REACH THE SAME GOAL!!!! AND I HOPE IT INVOLVES ALL OF US REACHING IT TOGETHER AS NOT ONLY A KENPO BROTHERHOOD, BUT ALSO A BROTHERHOOD OF MARTIAL ARTIST.


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## Turner (Jun 6, 2002)

A few years ago in a Shorinji Kempo class a 2nd Dan from a different branch would often show up to practice with us and was thinking about switching to our branch. While most of the people I've trained with in joint manipulation use manipulation to get you into position, this guy would use brute force to fold you how he wanted you. One day he was paired up with an older gentleman and slammed a wrist-lock on him taking the wrist beyond the 'safe' limit. As he crossed out he commented "Wow, you've got flexible wrists." It was a serious lack of control on the part of a Nidan, but the problem was he didn't know it. We tried to tell him, but he just wouldn't listen. We told the instructor and he might have talked to him but nothing ever came of it. Perhaps the Nidan was one of those belt snobs because the rest of us were only white belts. Sadly, there are some things that can get my blood worked up and this was one of them. I made sure that I was his training partner and I constantly stuck it to him. There were no easy days. I gave him a taste of what he had been giving to everyone since the day he started Kempo. At first he loved the level of intensity but eventually he had enough and went back to his old branch to stay. Aside from the instructor, I don't think anyone was sad to see him go. We worked the wrist lock almost every day and it seemed that everyday he would take it too far. A wrist lock, in those days, wasn't enough to get me to feel pain and he would often try to get me to 'feel it' to the point that it was starting to crack. You wonder about those types... are they too slow to realize that just because someone doesn't react as they expect that they can go further safely? I don't care how high of a pain threshold you have, if you twist a wrist to a certain point it is going to break. Like the guy that pushes the jaw instead of punching it... you can still do damage without exerting sharp force. Snobs just don't understand. Some can be taught nicely, some have to be shown.


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## Seig (Jun 6, 2002)

1.)  Shadow, please turn the caps lock off.  It is considered shouting and rude.
2.)  The only easy day, was yesterday.


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## meni (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *These are the type of snobs I've run into so far in my kenpo
> training:
> ...




Can a snob, snob when nobody is around?
The biggest problem I encounter with the snob type is they affect everybody and specially the lower belts whom gets discourage and leave

I my opinion you have to educate him but first I will approach the senior instructor!


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## GouRonin (Jun 6, 2002)

If he wants to pound on little old ladies then step in and take her place. if he doesn't like it then step in and take her place anyway. here is where pecking order needs to be established. Rank or not.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)




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## Seig (Jun 7, 2002)

the pounding order?


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## Sigung86 (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *the pounding order? *



Put me in for a pound. 

Dan


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## GouRonin (Jun 7, 2002)

Last I remembered, _"Kenpo"_ meant _"Fist Law"_. Some people only understand the way of the fist.

There is a great movie called _"Suicide Kings"_ with Dennis Leary in it. There is a pivotal scene where he's trying to explain nicely to a guy why it's not right that he should sexually and physically abuse his own daughter and he tells him to stop it. When he's done the guy looks at him and tells Leary that if he's done talking to send his daughter back in when he leaves.

Resigned to the fact that his effort did not work and that this man will continue, he beats him half to death with a toaster and then tells him if he finds out he touched her again he'd be back to finish the job.

Some people only understand one thing. 

Step in between this guy and this old lady when you see him going off on her. You know it's going to happen and she's going to get hurt. It's your %$#@ing moral obligation and anyone who thinks otherwise is probably the same kind of person who let Kitty Genovese die in New York.

Jeezus. As much as I think martial arts are about fighting you'd think that all these people who spout off about it being about the betterment of people morally, would step in. But usually they are the ones shaking their heads and going, _*tsk tsk*_. Not everyone is in martial arts for the same reason. It took me a long time to accept that fact myself but I never forced my view on others which is what this turdburgler is doing.

Go over and take grandma's place. Then proceed to give this guy what he dishes out. If he lightens up. Go light. If he goes hard, go hard. But smile as you do it. Everytime you see him go after grandma you go after him. Make him cry like a baby and whine about it and if he doesn't like it tell him now he knows how grandma feels knowing he was coming after her.

In short. You ride that b*tch until you break him.
:asian:


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> Jeezus. As much as I think martial arts are about fighting you'd think that all these people who spout off about it being about the betterment of people morally, would step in. But usually they are the ones shaking their heads and going, _*tsk tsk*_.[/B]



As one of the poeple who actually -- *gasp* -- suggested that he start with a non-violent solution, I want to say that you are making a huge assumption.  I have never lacked in willingness to take action when appropriate, and I'd be the last person to let someone be victimized when I can stop it.  Stepping in is something I'm good at.  Thou speakest out thine ****.

I've risked my *** to save strangers before; discipline includes acting violently when appropriate as well as acting non-violently when appropriate.  (I learned that without martial arts, oddly enough.)  That violence is _sometimes_, even _rarely_ appropriate doesn't make violence a good first choice every time someone pisses you off.  That's just selfishness, in this case disguised as good works.

Selfishness and violence are more closely related than selfishness and non-violence.  It's what sociopathology is all about.

If the guy were actually beating up the old lady, of course I would intervene.  Everyone in the whole dam* school should intervene.  But that's not exactly what was described, is it?  The bad guy was pushing limits too far, not beating people down, or at least that's how I read it.

Playing cowboy is weakness, because being the tough guy is easier than actually making tough choices.  It's harder to step back and find the best solution than to come in swinging.


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## Klondike93 (Jun 7, 2002)

There's nothing wrong with a non-violent approach, but it sounded to me like Kirk tried that and nothing happened.

Reading Turner's story was interesting. When this 2nd dan got as good as he gave, he left and went back to where he could rule the roost.

That's probably what's going to happen to this green belt. He has a mental problem with his size so he takes it out on those around him he can over power. If he really want's to learn he'll take the lumps he's about to recieve and learn and come back for more.

Kirk, do like the others say, give as hard as he gives or as light as he gives, but step in and bang with the little man. Your instructors have your back.


:asian:


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## tonbo (Jun 7, 2002)

I would agree that violence is not justified when someone just pisses you off.  However......

When you sign up for martial arts, you agree to a couple of things:  a certain level of contact, an understanding that you *will* get hurt at some point and in some level, and that you will play by a certain set of rules.  Same goes for anywhere else:  when you walk into a restaurant, you tacitly agree to their accepted conduct "rules", otherwise they can refuse to serve you--and even have you thrown out.  

In the case of a martial arts school, it seems that most places understand the "get as you give" rule:  You want to give out hard contact, you had better be ready to get it back.  Most schools also understand and promote the comfort level rule that if you ask someone to go lighter in contact, they should agree to that.  Part of the reasoning behind that is school liability, part of it is just civility.  Not everyone in the school is there to trade punches with the hard hitters--it ain't a bigger d**k club for everyone.

When you have someone pushing the limits of others in an unwelcome fashion, there are responsibilities put on a number of people:  the person being "bullied", to tell the "bully" to stop; the instructor, to steer the "bully" toward the right course of action; the "bully's" classmates/peers to try to change his/her behavior; and finally, the "bully", to actually hear the warnings and change the offending behavior.

Different methods affect different people.  Some people, you can ask nicely, and they will stop doing what is offensive.  Most others need to be corrected a little more strongly.  When I was a kid, if I didn't listen to my parents telling me not to do something, and I screwed up badly, I risked a spanking.  Would you consider that "violence"?  I didn't and still don't.  I was corrected, nothing more.  This is somewhat similar, in my opinion.  I wouldn't advocate totally going to town on this guy, but like Gou said:  become the guy's partner.  If he goes light, go light; if he goes hard, go hard.  Give him someone to work with, who he can't beat up on......but let him understand that if he is going to *cause* pain, he is going to need to be ready to *accept* it, as well.

This isn't street level violence, and it isn't a case of "turn the other cheek", either.  It is, however, about showing someone the errors they are making when it affects others.  Leave this guy unchecked, and he will continue to be a jerk; show him he isn't the big fish he thinks he is, and *maybe*, *maybe* he will think twice.  At any rate, he will see that he can't push everyone around.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

And Seig, congrats on the Black Belt!!  It looks good on ya.... 

Peace--


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## donald (Jun 7, 2002)

Am I to understand that some idiot is beating on an elderly woman in class, and this is being tolerated? At the VERY least this twerp oughta be shown the door. Is the head instructor even aware of the situation? If not, why not? The students have an obligation to their fellow student. To step in, even if the victim says not to. The situation should not be permitted to continue...

Salute    :soapbox:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

We are all  so out spoken on this topic......... hee hee.......  To become violent  on this person for what he has done thus far is uncalled for ........ 

I Personally think there 3 main players and a host of others that should be concerned.

Here is how I would want to have my studio handle this.

1st.......  Some one better  tell me when they see a salutation that is not normal..... the HEAD INSTRUCTOR  should be told of what's happening and NOW.    This is ALL the students jobs (Host of others)

2nd ....... It's the instructors place to teach the students that not everyone here is for the same reason.  Some individuals are just there to fight...   some are ...... etc etc...... AS SUCH it is the instructors duty to get across HOW MUCH PRESSURE to apply to everyone during class and exercises.......  If this is not stressed the problem here is that ..... Grandma will leave and go to another form of exercise and leave this YOUNG WARRIOR CLUB unto itself...  IF you have a "family studio" then all need to treat it that way and understand clearly how to treat all of its members!!

This I would want to be brought up to me  as the studio owner so that I could take care of the Instructor and teach him/her what I want at the studio better  ....... Be able to talk to Grandma and apologize and let her know we want her and that it was a small misunderstanding from an enthusiastic Instructor, and also use it as a teaching example during Instructors class so we all could get better at public relations and understand how treat everyone that enters the studio better and that we all have different goals.

: :asian: 
:soapbox


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## tonbo (Jun 7, 2002)

Good point, GoldenDragon.

I guess that's why you are *running* a school, while some of us are just *attending* one.....

Well, okay....that, and other reasons, too...... 

Peace--


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## tunetigress (Jun 7, 2002)

Well, speaking as a 'mature' woman who has primarily trained with higher-ranked guys half her age and at least twice as strong,  I  feel compelled to chime in here.  I've been paired up with enormous bruisers, as well as scrawny wimps, and any of them could have hurt me at any time had they felt like it.  Lucky for me they didn't.  What I got was respect, a few laffs (at their expense of course)  and a darn good work out.  I expected the tone and level of activity to be controlled by the instructor and placed my trust in his judgement.  If, at any time, I had felt that my training partners lacked control to the point that I needed to repeatedly ask them to tone it down, I would have expected the instructor to notice and step in.  

People come to the Martial Arts with different, yet worthy goals in mind for the most part.  When someone feels compelled to display their perceived power in ways that disrespect others, they can disrupt the training goals of the others in the class.  Out of respect for myself, I would likely refuse to train with such an individual, if he was permitted to continue to behave in this manner.  Us old ladies , tough as we are, take a lot longer to heal and injuries that take us out of training for months are, in my opinion,  best avoided.  I just don't have enough time left to let some idiot try to prove himself to others at my expense.  

An instructor who allows one person's ego to detract from the training of the others in the class,  may find eventually find themselves teaching a class of one!   :asian:


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## GouRonin (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> *As one of the poeple who actually -- *gasp* -- suggested that he start with a non-violent solution, I want to say that you are making a huge assumption.*



Sounds like the guy is beating on elderly students when the instructors are not looking. Sounds to me like they all know he's doing it but can't seem to catch him. Sounds to me like he has been spoken to. Sounds like he keeps doing it. Maybe my hearing sucks.



> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> *I have never lacked in willingness to take action when appropriate, and I'd be the last person to let someone be victimized when I can stop it.  Stepping in is something I'm good at.  Thou speakest out thine ****.*



I wasn't talking about you and what you would do. You feeling guilty about something there porkchop?



> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> *I've risked my *** to save strangers before; discipline includes acting violently when appropriate as well as acting non-violently when appropriate.  (I learned that without martial arts, oddly enough.)  That violence is _sometimes_, even _rarely_ appropriate doesn't make violence a good first choice every time someone pisses you off.  That's just selfishness, in this case disguised as good works.*



He's been asked not to. By other students, the instructors, the person he's picking on. He continues to do it despite this request and it seems like when they are not catching him. They tried to be nice. I'm all for nice being the first line of defence. I never said it was my first choice. Where are you getting this from? Hell, even in my anology I pointed out that the first choice should be talking to someone to come to terms.



> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> *Selfishness and violence are more closely related than selfishness and non-violence.  It's what sociopathology is all about.*



Are you calling me a sociopath?



> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> *If the guy were actually beating up the old lady, of course I would intervene.  Everyone in the whole dam* school should intervene.  But that's not exactly what was described, is it?  The bad guy was pushing limits too far, not beating people down, or at least that's how I read it.*



Ok, maybe I followed this string wrong. I read it as they *did* ask this guy to stop. He continues to do so in fact when no one is looking as the instructor of the school stated they were aware of it. He continues to beat on grandma despite the fact he has been asked not to by her and the instructors and other students. This behavior is constant. How long should they keep saying he's pushing the limits? Until grandma gets hurt? Oh, then it's gone to far? I think we're reading this differently. At no point did I say go over and beat him senseless right off the bat. I'm saying it appears to me that all other options have been tried.



> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> *Playing cowboy is weakness, because being the tough guy is easier than actually making tough choices.  It's harder to step back and find the best solution than to come in swinging. *



I agree. Tough choices have to be made. I think it's best to sit and see what your choices are and then take the best one that solves the problem and makes sure everyone comes out as ahead as they can. That includes grandma, (Damn I have to meet this lady now, I feel like I know her. Ha ha ha) *and* the guy who is the problem. Why beat on him if you can solve the problem amicably? I just don't think that is the case here.

And...playing a good cowboy is harder than you think. I never said wail on the guy. I said _"be there."_ Be in his way when he wants to lump on grandma or goes looking for her as a partner. He bangs, you bang back. He relaxes and acts like an adult you return the favour. I said *"SMILE"* as you work with him. Be nice. But be there. Pretend you're a wall with a painted on smile in his way if you want.

Not sure why you're in a huff over this but I think it's because we both read this situation differently. if we were in the same studio we'd both be sitting down right now I bet and deciding how to handle this guy and the best course of action to take. No doubt of the two of us you'd be the one to go talk to him first. Then if that didn't work, me, I'm a bit more blunt. Then after we exhausted that we'd be fighting each other to go stand in front of this guy.


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## GouRonin (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Here is how I would want to have my studio handle this.
> *



This wouldn't *BE* happening at your school.


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## Sigung86 (Jun 7, 2002)

And some folks ratchet their jaws a little too much methinks.

I suspect that, on occasion, if a little more rod had been not spared, in lieu of the child, this kind of stuff might not be occurring.

Dan


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _*
> This wouldn't BE happening at your school.
> *



LOL ya know.......  You are right!:rofl: 

:asian:


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## Kirk (Jun 7, 2002)

Quite a number of replies here ... too many to quote so let me
clarify.

This guy is a blue belt.  I'm orange.  He's about 5' 
even.  "Grandma" isn't a hunch backed frail woman, she can dish
it out.  She'd be complimented by me calling her a "good ol' 
broad".  He's not really beating anyone.  What he's doing is taking
the exercises we're doing, too far EVERY time.  Which is the cause
for my anger.  All of us beginners have accidentally hurt each 
other.  We apologize, accept the apology, and move on.   Except 
for him.  One orange belt wailed on him, and he got MAD.  He 
acted like he could just do SO much to him, because he has 32 
more techniques under his belt.  He hurt my elbow big time, and 
after I screamed "OW!" he said nothing, and then proceeded to 
do it again.  He then did the same thing to "Grandma".  I knew 
my instructor(s) were aware of this, I just didn't know to what 
extent.    

I brought up his actions in the locker room last night, and one
guy said his wife wailed on him and he hasn't treated her that
way since.   That tells me how to handle it.  I'm going to give as
good as I get.  I was afraid of being labeled a bully, since I
outweigh the guy by such an extreme margin, but the locker room
discussion revealed that "grandma" and I weren't the only ones 
he's doing this B.S. to.

The school I go to is one of 3 EPAK schools in the city.   In the
short time I've studied, I know it's the best one in the city.  I'm
lucky to be in the school I'm in, and have the instructor's that I
have.   I'm not gonna let one jerk ruin that for me.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)




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## tonbo (Jun 7, 2002)

Sounds like you have a resolution pretty firmly in mind.

Good luck to ya, and I hope that resolves the issue.  If the guy has half a brain, maybe he'll pick up on the clues.......

Peace--


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 7, 2002)

Having trouble with the multiple quotes thing, so bear with me.  Quoted text is from Gou Ronin.

Gou,

"I wasn't talking about you and what you would do. You feeling guilty about something there porkchop?"

LOL

"Are you calling me a sociopath?"

Of course not.  I'd have to know you better first.    I was referring to the idea that, in general, violence is a selfish act.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> Not sure why you're in a huff over this but I think it's because we both read this situation differently. if we were in the same studio we'd both be sitting down right now I bet and deciding how to handle this guy and the best course of action to take. No doubt of the two of us you'd be the one to go talk to him first. Then if that didn't work, me, I'm a bit more blunt. Then after we exhausted that we'd be fighting each other to go stand in front of this guy. *



I think you are exactly right, both in why we have been disagreeing, and in the likely outcome if we were actually in the class together.  I'm pretty blunt, though, so you may be surprised at how fast I'll move through the "de-escalating interventions" (a phrase from my years as a psych tech in mental hospitals with children).

Email sucks. :shrug:


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 7, 2002)

Kirk,

Keep us posted on how it turns out.  I'd suggest keeping your instructor "in the loop" so your interventions don't end up biting you in the ****.


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 7, 2002)

Tonbo,

Your points (under the message entitled Playing "Cowboy") are well taken.  In general, I agree, especially about there being an understanding before entering the dojo about what is expected of you.


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## tonbo (Jun 7, 2002)

Hey, back atcha!!

You made some good points yourself, about making sure that the fist ain't the first response when one gets annoyed.  I'm all with ya on that one.

I think a LOT of good points were made on the whole topic.  Especially that bit about smiling while working with the guy.  The psychology works wonders..... 

Peace--


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

agree / disagree....... point / counter point discussions that we should have and at the end.... resolve or not .... friendly ending of the string....and each entitled to his own opinions etc.  keeping misunderstandings and attitudes in check.  Your great attitudes will seperate a great forum from a poor one.

Great Work Guys......!!!

:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *agree / disagree....... point / counter point discussions that we should have and at the end.... resolve or not .... friendly ending of the string....and each entitled to his own opinions etc.  keeping misunderstandings and attitudes in check.  Your great attitudes will seperate a great forum from a poor one.
> 
> ...



And as a non Kempp practitioner it makes it
very easy for me and others to follow and to
learn along the way.

Thank you

Rich
:asian:


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## cdhall (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _
> 
> *Snob = Insecure
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, although there are many good suggestions, this is the case and I have experienced these situations myself.  When they are lower rank you can usually "suggest" to them that they try... whatever, when they are higher rank and won't ask for clarification like you said, I ask the Head Instructor anyway.  Either right there or later depending on the circumstances.  You can phrase it many ways "Well, I'm sure he said... or I thought for sure... or I like your idea better but I'm still confuse ..." and just ask.  The more that gets dealt with in the open, the better.  In my opinion.

But your Head Instructor has the final word.  Be sure to check with them. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2002)

Good Advice.......
:asian:


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