# Bujinkan and Genbukan



## Tenjindo (Dec 29, 2004)

I was wondering if anyone out could tell me what is the conflict between Hatsumi soke and Tanemura sensei. Way did Tanemura leave and why does he claim to be soke of some of the same ryuha that Hatsumi soke is soke of. I have respect for both of these men and think very highly of them; I just want to know who is the true soke of the nine ryuha. I myself have trained in the bujinkan system, but just wanted to know what caused two great Grandmasters to split and go their seperate ways.


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## Chappers (Dec 29, 2004)

There is no conflict as such and as far as i am aware they are still good friends just blokes with different ideals!!


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## Kreth (Dec 29, 2004)

I think the only people that can answer this question would be the two involved. This topic has been rehashed on several forums, with no clear answer. Anything from either Bujinkan or Genbukan members is mere speculation.
From what I understand, the explanation of the "duplicate" claims is this: Tanemura-san trained and received these titles from students of Takamatsu other than Hatsumi-sensei.

Jeff


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## George Kohler (Dec 29, 2004)

Tenjindo said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone out could tell me what is the conflict between Hatsumi soke and Tanemura sensei. Way did Tanemura leave...



Here is an article http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

Last year, when I was in Japan, Tanemura Sensei said that he had not seen Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan, but there was still a strong family bond between the two families.


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## Chappers (Dec 30, 2004)

Thats a very good article, all the way through he keeps away from any contraversial points and does not slag off the bujinkan.


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## DWeidman (Dec 30, 2004)

Chappers said:
			
		

> There is no conflict as such and as far as i am aware they are still good friends just blokes with different ideals!!


I guess I get to be the ogre again... *sighs*

This reminds me to repost something I say all the time (and needs to be repeated ad nauseamon boards):

*If you don't know - don't answer.* 

Simple really...

-Daniel

PS - In case you are wondering why "Chappers" post is quoted here - I would say that unless he has evidence that they are "still good friends" - it seems as though this is an unfounded statement...


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## Chappers (Dec 31, 2004)

Dan,

How do YOU know what my source is?  how do you know where i get my info from?


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## Tenjindo (Dec 31, 2004)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> Here is an article http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html
> 
> Last year, when I was in Japan, Tanemura Sensei said that he had not seen Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan, but there was still a strong family bond between the two families.


The article was very insightful and explained alot about the reason why the two decided to go their seperate ways. I am still a little stumped on the subject of which one of these Grandmaster are the true soke of the 9 ryuha.


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## Chappers (Dec 31, 2004)

Well i am in the bujinkan so for me its Hatsumi, obviously George might think differently, but then its what your taught i suppose, until i am taught anything different then its the boss, both orgs provide excellant training though!!


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## DWeidman (Dec 31, 2004)

Chappers said:
			
		

> Dan,
> 
> How do YOU know what my source is? how do you know where i get my info from?


I don't. At 3rd kyu, however, I _suspect_ you don't have a relationship with Hatsumi that spans 30 yrs. 

This - however - is your chance to SHINE, dood. 

*List your source(s) - and we can all be amazed (note - it should be Hatsumi...)...*

Ball is in your court... 

-Daniel

PS - Don't worry - I don't expect you to answer.


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## Chappers (Dec 31, 2004)

Danny,

My sources are exactly that, if i am told something that comes back from japan then i tend to believe that more than you, or are you just offended a lowly 3rd kyu might have a bit more info than you?  I was initially taking you seriously but then i remembered the name, one of e-budo's best trolls i see!! Can never help yourself but jump in there to pull others apart, even the new ones, as a sensei i thought you were supposed to help others not tear them to bits Danny, see you didnt stay long on Kutaki, too intellectual for you was it? oh well you can stick to BUJINTECH!!!


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## Jay Bell (Dec 31, 2004)

*sigh*

Regardless, your "source" (which you have continued to not name in your excited tirade) is wrong.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 31, 2004)

:feedtroll


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## Cryozombie (Dec 31, 2004)

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## Elizium (Jan 2, 2005)

I can only say one thing about all of this and that is...


Who cares.  Not me.  Next troll debate please.


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## DWeidman (Jan 2, 2005)

Chappers said:
			
		

> Danny,
> 
> My sources are exactly that, if i am told something that comes back from japan then i tend to believe that more than you, or are you just offended a lowly 3rd kyu might have a bit more info than you? I was initially taking you seriously but then i remembered the name, one of e-budo's best trolls i see!! Can never help yourself but jump in there to pull others apart, even the new ones, as a sensei i thought you were supposed to help others not tear them to bits Danny, see you didnt stay long on Kutaki, too intellectual for you was it? oh well you can stick to BUJINTECH!!!


Danny? Apparently you have read E-budo...

Am I really being accused of being a troll???

I am glad you learned how to use Google... *sighs*

Seriously - who told you Hatsumi and Tanemura are "still good friends". 

George - can you confirm this? Don?

Chappers - name your source(s) or tuck your tail and run...

Still waiting - 

-Daniel  <---- Note the name.  If you can google my name - then you can spell it right.


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## George Kohler (Jan 2, 2005)

Hi Daniel,

As I stated earlier, Tanemura Sensei has not seen or spoken to Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan. This was from a conversation with him in his car when he picked John Lindsey, Jonathan Singer (a student of John Lindsey's) and me up from the Narita Airport in June 2003.


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## DWeidman (Jan 3, 2005)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> Hi Daniel,
> 
> As I stated earlier, Tanemura Sensei has not seen or spoken to Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan. This was from a conversation with him in his car when he picked John Lindsey, Jonathan Singer (a student of John Lindsey's) and me up from the Narita Airport in June 2003.


Thanks George 

So... would it be fair to say that they are NOT "still good friends" based on that information?

-Daniel

PS - that is what I understood as well (although I didn't have any direct confirmation).

PPS - Chappers?  Your move ...


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## George Kohler (Jan 3, 2005)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Thanks George
> 
> So... would it be fair to say that they are NOT "still good friends" based on that information?



From what I understood from Tanemura Sensei, they (the Tanemura Family and the Hatsumi Family) still have a strong family bond. Since they are family (distant cousins - not blood related) I don't think they would call each other friends. BTW, after Hatsumi Sensei's father passed away, Tanemura Sadatsune (Tanemura Sensei's father) became a mentor to the young Hatsumi Yoshiaki.


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## Elizium (Jan 3, 2005)

To me it seems like a matter between Hatsumi and Tanamura to sort out and for us not to discuss.  Thr4 favct that the Bujinkan and the Genbukan are different in ways of teaching and how each system differs slightly, makes taijutsu so unique.  


After all, how many dojo Soke's went out on their own to start thier system based on the teachings of their last grandmaster throughout Japan?  Must have been a lot as their are scrolls of history saying this was taught here and that was taught by that family.  It is not like one day some Jsapanese man woke up and suddenly ended up being a soke of his own system (may happen today with Koga and some American hick Ryu, but not back then).

Me personally, I see the split between Tanamura and Hatsumi as a natural one.  Genbukan and Bujinkan will continue in many forms in the future regardless of what splits or family feuds happen.  That dojo has stemmed from that dojo and so on and so forth.  It is only in the public eye due to the closeness of the Internet and BB places like Martialtalk and e-budo making it personal and talked about.  But it seems no one is prepared to talk of the splits in everyone elses lives, so why should we discuss theirs on here?


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## Cryozombie (Jan 3, 2005)

*Moderator Note. 
*
*Please leave Arguments started on other boards on those boards, they are unwanted here.**
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## Chappers (Jan 4, 2005)

All i can say is when i was in japan in sept i had tea with one of his shihan (not on my own), aparently they have spoke and there is no bitterness between them, no feud, no arguing, and that for me is good enough for me!!

George's view is from a genbukan speaking to a genbukan, mine is from one of Hatsumi's guys so undoubtably i am going to believe that source and not george's.


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## Don Roley (Jan 4, 2005)

Chappers said:
			
		

> All i can say is when i was in japan in sept i had tea with one of his shihan (not on my own), aparently they have spoke and there is no bitterness between them, no feud, no arguing, and that for me is good enough for me!!



I am confused. At first you seem to be saying you had a source other than you when you said,



> if i am told something that comes back from japan then i tend to believe that more than you,



Now you seem to be saying that it was you, and not someone back from Japan.

And we do not know who you talked to, or even who you are. And George Kohler has contridicted what you say when he said,



> As I stated earlier, Tanemura Sensei has not seen or spoken to Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan.



He is a known source and his word is good in my book. You, I don't know and see no reason to believe your word. So I believe Kohler when he says they have not met or spoken and not you when you say, "aparently they have spoke."  You say that George is speaking from a Genbukan perspective as a means of dismissing what he said, yet your own source (again unnamed and unproven) is a Genbukan shihan. You take the one that suits your purposes, but reject the other.

Honestly, I see no reason to believe you or treat you as a respectable source.


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## Chappers (Jan 4, 2005)

Who said mine is a genbukan shihan, mines a Bujinkan shihan.


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## Don Roley (Jan 4, 2005)

Chappers said:
			
		

> Who said mine is a genbukan shihan, mines a Bujinkan shihan.



Well you gave the impression that your source was a Genbukan shihan. And you have not named him. So I see no reason to believe that he exists. In most situations, people would be giving names of their sources, and you have not. Thus, I see no reason to give any credence at all to what you say. george Kohler is a known person that gives verifiable sources for much of what he says. You are an unknown who does not give any ay to verify what you say. He says something 180 degrees opposite from what you say, and I think I am not the only one who will trust his word more than yours.

Not to mention, that much of what he says is more in line with what I have heard hile here in Japan than what I hear from you.


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## Chappers (Jan 4, 2005)

No worries Don, as i said this is what i was told, i cant say i am wrong because this is what i was told so this is what i believe, but thanks anyway for your comments!! and sorry for giving the wrong impression, i am a bit of a nob when it comes to getting my words out!!


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## George Kohler (Jan 4, 2005)

Chappers said:
			
		

> All i can say is when i was in japan in sept i had tea with one of his shihan (not on my own), aparently they have spoke and there is no bitterness between them, no feud, no arguing, and that for me is good enough for me!!



You are right that there is no bitterness, no feuding and no arguing, at least not by Tanemura Sensei, but they have not spoken to each other.


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