# Juko-Kai Ninjutsu?



## Cryozombie

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *You will also be unhappy to know they claim a "Ninpo Division" now too.
> http://jukokai.com/ *



Ok, so I was recently informed that Juko-kai claims to have a 

"formal Ninpo division under the sanction of Masaaki Hatsumi, 34th Generation Soke to Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu in Japan"

Thats a direct quote from their site, Does anyone know if this is true? 

Also they claim that Juko-kai ninpo is only open to current ranking bujinkan members...


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## Jay Bell

> "formal Ninpo division under the sanction of Masaaki Hatsumi, 34th Generation Soke to Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu in Japan"



Absolute lie.  Roddy boy was given an honorary Judan by Hatsumi sensei...under request of a Judan from Canada...who is also a member of the Juko-kai.  The "Juko kai Ninjutsu" created by this member is *not* part of the Bujinkan, nor sanctioned by Hatsumi sensei.

Yet...another time that the Juko Kai twists truths around to gain credibility.  The Bujinkan has no formal ties with Juko-kai.


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## Dennis_Mahon

What Jay said.

This was beaten to death over at E-Budo last year; Rod is exploiting a gift granted him by Hatsumi-sensei.


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## bujinclergy

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *Ok, so I was recently informed that Juko-kai claims to have a
> 
> "formal Ninpo division under the sanction of Masaaki Hatsumi, 34th Generation Soke to Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu in Japan"
> 
> Thats a direct quote from their site, Does anyone know if this is true?
> 
> Also they claim that Juko-kai ninpo is only open to current ranking bujinkan members... *



It's true. A lot of Juko-Kai folks are training in Bujinkan....
Some have been in it for many years.
Sacharnoski Sensei has both Honorary Rank as well as regular rank in it.
Pisses a lot of people off but it's still true...


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## Dennis_Mahon

> *Sacharnoski Sensei has both Honorary Rank as well as regular rank in it.*



Prove it.

When and how did Sacharnoski aquire an "actual" rank in the Bujinkan, and what rank was he given?

Until proof is rendered, it isn't so.


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## Matt Stone

Just hearing about Dr. Rod and having the word "sensei" attached to his name makes my stomach churn...  He is what happens to the MA community when people are not held accountable for ranks attained and training attended.  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## bujinclergy

> Prove it.
> 
> When and how did Sacharnoski aquire an "actual" rank in the Bujinkan, and what rank was he given?
> 
> Until proof is rendered, it isn't so.
> [/B]



E-Mail John Willson private :
koi@cnwl.igs.net
Ask him if Sacharnoski Sensei is a member of Shidoshi Kai in Bujinkan and he will tell you yes he is.


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## Deaf

I have heard that John Wilson (shidoshi in Canada) did award Sacharnoski a dan rank in Bujinkan.  Which dan rank, I do not know for sure.  Which in and of itself is nothing.  Considering John Wilson's reputation that I have heard about. 

It is kind of funny...a man is given a "HONORARY" rank out of kindness.  What does this man do?  Exploit the hell out of it and show nothing but blantant disrespect towards the art by monopolizing on the honorary rank and people's "ignorance" about what the art truly is.  Amazing what greed and an inflated ego can do to someone!





> _Originally posted by bujinclergy _
> *E-Mail John Willson private :
> koi@cnwl.igs.net
> Ask him if Sacharnoski Sensei is a member of Shidoshi Kai in Bujinkan and he will tell you yes he is. *


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## Bujingodai

From many circles I have heard the Judan is honourary and the Sandan was granted by Wilson Sensei as legit.
He has the right to do so. Unfortunatly I wonder of what Rod S will do with things.


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## Deaf

yes the judan is honourary and I know that Wilson HAS awarded Sacharnoski a legitimate dan rank.  I'm not saying that Wilson doesn't have any right not handing rank out.  I just question his motives and intelligence in doing so.

Why would Sacharnoski need a dan rank when he has an honourary judan?  Try to make himself look more legitimate?  Give me a break!  The guy is a black belt black hole!  He has more ranks that are NOT humanly possible to really have!  I don't question his skill as a martial artist since I am sure he has some but to be such high rank dan in various styles is a JOKE and how can anyone take that seriously!



> Unfortunatly I wonder of what Rod S will do with things.



Wonder?  Read the first post to this thread.  He is making false claims and taking advantage of an honourary "GIFT" given to him.

~Deaf~


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## Bujingodai

So out of interest sake, has there been any new developments. Has Roddy claimed a new grade or has anyone really verified what his non-honourary grade is?


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## bujinclergy

Hey Dave,
If you want to find out just ask on :
http://www.yamamizuryu.org/bujinkanobb/phpBB2/index.php

John Willson is on that board and so is a lot of other folks that cross train.

Make sure you use the variance of Sacharnoski Sensei's first name too!
I'm sure it'll go over real well:shrug:

Oh;
In reference to "deaf"
since your handle left out the second half... I'll help you out.

Sacharnoski Sensei is Shidoshikai so he can reccomend promotions if he chooses. If people want proof then you can go to a clinic of his or his home and ask to see his Shidoshikai card. Thats probably the only way he is going to waste his time with any of you.


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## Bujingodai

Kent,
I am well aware of some of the relations that Rod has with the Kan. I was only asking of the exact issue at hand. I have never met, trained or anything of the like with the Juko Kai. But the whole thing is confusing. Don't worry I won't use Roddy, as maybe someone will be mad at me right?
I am not too concerned with their problems, only wanted an answer.
You must admit the whole issue is very unresolved. Not that it is anyones business. But it is really when paying to belong to an org, the membership #'s and ranks are a public thing. IMO


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## bujinclergy

> You must admit the whole issue is very unresolved. Not that it is anyones business. But it is really when paying to belong to an org, the membership #'s and ranks are a public thing.



The issue never needed to be resolved. It is no-ones buisness except for the folks who wish to train via that route. All membership organization fees for Bujinkan training go to Hatsumi Sensei and if a person does not recieve their rank credentials signed by Hatsumi Sensei then they are not valid credentials. All ranks that are earned are filed through the appropriate channels and is returned from Japan and distributed at the clinics.

and yes, using anything other than a persons appropriate  name is just plain disrespectful. How you behave directly reflects on your teacher and how you are taught to behave. (Or that you defy your teachers wishes)
Bad heart is a bad heart-period.


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## Bujingodai

Well like I stated it was IMO, right?

So then not that it is my business, what rank has he made it to? Other than the honourary Judan.

All the ranks that he has attained in his career, I suppose it does make sense that they are concurrently awarded due to similar ciriculum then. It does stand to reason to a degree. It is just suspect when one has THAT many degrees and ranks.

I am sorry to offend about the shidoshi kai. I do know that it is between him and Wilson Shihan. 
However others have been called on theirs before. Mine will be too.


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## Scooter

Keep in mind, Wilson is one of Rod's Students as well....hmmm, can you say mutually beneficial?
I'm always a bit suspect of anyone going arround collecting rank in various arts and then creating their own "style"...but hey, that's just me.
As for what was eluded to in earlier posts about Wilson's skill, I couldn't say. I only know the little that I've seen, and I wasn't impressed. Although I can say, there are several high ranked people in the Bujinkan that question Wilson's motives since he's gotten together with the whole juko-kai thing.


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## Bujingodai

I have no idea of Johns skill, have never seen him. I have seen another of his students and he was pretty good, amazing actually. However you do raise the point about motives and Shihans among other high ranks. For the most legit Ninjutsu org on the planet the quality control really sucks. And I for one am not happy with the anarchistic approach to it. Everyone seems to reason it too.

Each dojo has a different way to grade, every dojos skill level among a Kyu or Dan differs. Almost every teacher I meet hates the next teacher or thinks they have the wrong motives. And I have seen so many high ranks that either got the grade for lax reasons or just plain suck. With nothing but excuses made for it.
:soapbox:


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## bujinclergy

Scooter writes:


> As for what was eluded to in earlier posts about Wilson's skill, I couldn't say. I only know the little that I've seen, and I wasn't impressed.



...and out of curiosity Mr Reisinger, where did you see Willson Sensei perform and what is your experience in Martial Arts so we can value your humble opinion. Willson Sensei has been training over 40 years...

As per Bujingodai:


> I have seen another of his students and he was pretty good, amazing actually.



...didn't get that way because Willson Sensei is "unimpressive"
If your speaking of Michelle Belisle (Judan Bujinkan) I can understand you comment. Michelle is "spooky good" 



> Each dojo has a different way to grade, every dojos skill level among a Kyu or Dan differs. Almost every teacher I meet hates the next teacher or thinks they have the wrong motives. And I have seen so many high ranks that either got the grade for lax reasons or just plain suck. With nothing but excuses made for it.



Different grading ways..different strokes for differerent folks eh?
Hateful and spiteful with wrong motives? Keep looking out there and the perfect sensei will rear their ugly head someday. 
as for the rest of it...
why bother.. :shrug: 
maybe I'll go Koga, might as well right? Everybody is screwed up anyway... 

Sorry,
This is too stupid to be taken seriously


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## Bujingodai

Well I'm not Koga, just have an opinion that alot won't say.
I think that some uniformity is good for a school.

The instructor I saw was Mike Pimblett. I have been enjoying some of the readings from him on your other board too.
His students were vicious. Great.

That is all the experience I have had with the Wilson schools.

I am lucky to have had some really good Booj instructors though. I learned under Frank Hill for a few, he moves like water. I look forward to moving back to the city so I can study under him again.

Right now I study under Pierre Benoit. I must say he is changing my mind on sublties (sp)

But I also learn under a non Buj teacher who has equally taught me lots.
So I stay pretty open minded.

Sorry for my personal ramble.:shrug:


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## bushi jon

Hey if I am not mistaken wasnt Shihan Wilson just awarded a 13 Dan by Hatsumi Sensi. I believe that would make him one of the highest ranked person outside of Japan. Why would any other person question his ability if the man himself(Hatsumi)awarded his rank.:asian: I have seen both people that are in question here and I would bet that they both could hold there own. I think people forget that even the greats MAs of are time where just human at best. People can say what they want about Sacraknowskis Sensi and Wilson Sensi but what it all boils down to they are both good at what they do and they will always have people sniping at them.

Kent tell Lonnie I said Hi


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## Jay Bell

> Hey if I am not mistaken wasnt Shihan Wilson just awarded a 13 Dan by Hatsumi Sensi. I believe that would make him one of the highest ranked person outside of Japan.



Uhm..no...not even close.



> Why would any other person question his ability if the man himself(Hatsumi)awarded his rank.



Because often times Hatsumi sensei will award rank to people merely to allow them to hang themselves on their own rope.



> People can say what they want about Sacraknowskis Sensi and Wilson Sensi but what it all boils down to they are both good at what they do and they will always have people sniping at them.



Hrm...fraud and empire building?...respectively of course.


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## Deaf

I actually forgotten all about this thread until a new post came up and put it back in the spotlight....and I just had to answer this post!



> _Originally posted by bujinclergy _
> *Hey Dave,
> If you want to find out just ask on :
> http://www.yamamizuryu.org/bujinkanobb/phpBB2/index.php
> Oh;
> In reference to "deaf"
> since your handle left out the second half... I'll help you out.
> 
> Sacharnoski Sensei is Shidoshikai so he can reccomend promotions if he chooses. If people want proof then you can go to a clinic of his or his home and ask to see his Shidoshikai card. Thats probably the only way he is going to waste his time with any of you. *



Oh really cute...!  Did you think of that one all by yourself?

Well I would assume that Shidoshi kai is part of the "HONORARY" title the guy received from Hatsumi Sensei but this doesn't change the fact that Sacharnoski still only has an "HONORARY" title. Any person in their rightful mind would KNOW that an HONORARY title doesn't give them the power to recommend nor teach an art!  

I know you are going to say that the man has earned dan rank under wilson.  ok I would accept that however wilson is sacharnoski's student as well.  Something just isn't right about that!  Sounds a lot like "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" type business.

This discussion will go nowhere really.  I have my opinions about the situation and if someone asks, I will voice them.  My opinion cannot be changed based on what you have provided and my opinion regarding you is less than favorable due to your ignorant comment about my handle...but I think it just goes to show your character really well.  

Have a GREAT day training!


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## Dennis_Mahon

I know this is like throwing gasoline on a dying fire, but...



> Sacharnoski Sensei is Shidoshikai so he can reccomend promotions if he chooses.



I thought the _shidoshi-kai_ was the license that all legitimate _shidoshi_ carry to prove that they are certified instructors.

And if Sacharnowski is a licensed _shidoshi_, does that mean he returns to the _hombu_ dojo every year for re-certification?


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## Jeff Boler

Sacharnoski has ranking under Wilson.  Period.  Now a lot of Bujinkan people will tell you that he has nothing legitimate, or that he's not apart of the "Bujinkan" but the "Bujinkan Brotherhood."

Face it guys.  Like it or not, he's attached.  I guess you could refer to him as the "black sheep" of the family.

Let it be known that my problems with the Sachmeister have never been about his abilities.  I have never seen him perform, so I can't really comment.  But....people who claim such wild ranks and titles are typically only trying to make up for the lack of skill.  Now I don't know if that applies here, but if he spent half as much time working out that he spends looking for recognition, then no one could stop him.

As for Kent's comment about "becoming Koga", why not?  I mean, the Vice President of Juko Kai now has rank in both Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, and the Bujinkan.  Why shouldn't Juko Kai just claim to be the only system to have lineage in both Ninjutsu based arts?

Geez...I'm only giving them ideas.

End of :soapbox:


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## bujinclergy

> _Originally posted by Dennis_Mahon _I thought the _shidoshi-kai_ was the license that all legitimate _shidoshi_ carry to prove that they are certified instructors.



This is partially correct. All Shidoshi-kai members are licensed to grade and teach the Bujinkan Arts. It varies from group to group how that is organized. A shidoshi is Godan or above. Just because you are a Godan or above does not make you a Shidoshi. Not all members of Shidoshi-Kai are Shidoshi. Some are Shidoshi-Ho. They are licensed formally but are below Godan in grading.



> And if Sacharnowski is a licensed _shidoshi_, does that mean he returns to the _hombu_ dojo every year for re-certification? [/B]



Sacharnoski Sensei is licensed through the Shidoshi-Kai, has a valid certificate and Shidoshi-Kai membership card to prove all of this. 

My comment about becoming Koga was a sarcastic remark directed at "Bujingodai" nothing more. It figures it is taken out of context. But thats the technique now isn't it... Sneaky Ninja's 
I apologize to Dave for the dig. I will respect him for whatever he believes he should do for his views. :asian: 
As I am full Shidoshi, licensed by Hatsumi Sensei and graded by Hatsumi Sensei in Japan, and a licensed Shidoshi Kai member, I teach as Hatsumi Sensei guides all of us to do.
I personally go to Japan every year and plan to continue to.
What everyone else does is there buisness so you will have to speak to them about that.


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## heretic888

> As for Kent's comment about "becoming Koga", why not? I mean, the Vice President of Juko Kai now has rank in both Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, and the Bujinkan. Why shouldn't Juko Kai just claim to be the only system to have lineage in both Ninjutsu based arts?



No existing "Koga ryu" is Ninjutsu based.

They are Judo based, and Karate based, and Kung Fu based, and Tae Kwon Do based. But no Ninpo.


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## Bujingodai

Wow Kent that was good I didn't even realize you took a dig at me! Why's that considering I was supportive of Johns organization did you pick on the indie to fit with a crowd?

I am a legitamite Yudansha in the Bujinkan as well, I am a member. However yes I am an admin in an indie org. One which one of my teachers claims some of that angle on things. Do I nessecarily (sp) agree, no not really. I was just honoring that.

I am hardly one of the Ninja Cowboys out there,  I am one of the few indies who is realistic in approach and cares about reputation. I have also trained with the vast majority of them so I could see for myself what they are made of.

Can I ask again why it is you took a 2 yr old website, actually we forgot the HTML codes to change it.  And decided to ram on me?

Incedentaly, I don't see that teacher any longer so I guess my fake Koga side is gone. Personally I could care less if you called it Fugu style. I learned something.


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## Jeff Boler

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *No existing "Koga ryu" is Ninjutsu based.
> 
> They are Judo based, and Karate based, and Kung Fu based, and Tae Kwon Do based. But no Ninpo. *



Uh. yeah, i'm aware of the reality of that statement.  Unfortunately, there are those who do not.  "Dr." William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu and a Shodan in the Bujinkan (and the Vice President of Juko Kai),  does in fact claim to be a master of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo and Ninjutsu.  I'm not taking up for him by any means.  Just listing what he claims.


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## stephen

> _Originally posted by Jeff Boler _
> *Uh. yeah, i'm aware of the reality of that statement.  Unfortunately, there are those who do not.  "Dr." William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu and a Shodan in the Bujinkan (and the Vice President of Juko Kai),  does in fact claim to be a master of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo and Ninjutsu.  I'm not taking up for him by any means.  Just listing what he claims. *



No, No, No, CLEARLY you have it all wrong. He trains in niMpo not niNpo. 

http://www.kiyojuteryu.org/principles/nimpo.shtml

His Koga ryu must be Nimpo based.  

 

-Steve


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## Jeff Boler

Kempo and Nimpo, not Kenpo and Ninpo.  Also.....his organizations are listed as Remmei, not Renmei.

But...he was TOLD BY GOD to create his art.  Therefore, he must be right, and everyone else must be wrong.....


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## stephen

> _Originally posted by Jeff Boler _
> *Kempo and Nimpo, not Kenpo and Ninpo.  Also.....his organizations are listed as Remmei, not Renmei.
> 
> But...he was TOLD BY GOD to create his art.  Therefore, he must be right, and everyone else must be wrong.....
> 
> *



Sorry, my bad, I didn't know GOD had commanded it. I'm going to start my 3 hail mary's now. 

Remember that scene in Spies Like Us, where Chevy Chase and Dan Akroyd are pretending to be doctors in the surgical tent. They're all introducing themselves to the other doctors: "Doctor...Doctor...yes Doctor...hello Doctor... Doctor". That must be what a Juko-kai clinic is like: "Soke...Soke... Soke...Hello Soke...Soke...Soke" 

(If you haven't seen it, you should)

-Steve


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## Jeff Boler

Actually there are quite a few Juko Kai members running around with "PHds", so "Doctor" would work also.


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## heretic888

heh.


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## Kreth

> _Originally posted by Dennis_Mahon _
> *And if Sacharnowski is a licensed shidoshi, does that mean he returns to the hombu dojo every year for re-certification? *


Somehow I doubt it, unless there's a photo op involved...
What I see happening is Sacharnoski waiting for Willson to get permission to give the godan test (a dark day for the Bujinkan), and then taking his test...  

Jeff


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## Jeff Boler

You're probably right.  I doubt that Sacharnoski would ever test in front of a true master.  Even when they visited Hontai Yoshin Ryu, he sat out because of an "ankle" injury.....


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## Jeff Boler

Exploiting a gift?  Sounds like it to me...

September Juko Kai Warrior

Page four, Soke's Corner.


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## Jay Bell

_From the Soke-dai's corner:_ 

"Both our card machine and diploma printer is off-line at this time being repaired.  They get a lot of use"

Doooon't we know it    How many Soke can you fit in an organization?

As far as Soke's corner...what a sham.


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## Kreth

> _Originally posted by Jeff Boler _
> *Exploiting a gift?  Sounds like it to me...
> 
> September Juko Kai Warrior
> 
> Page four, Soke's Corner. *


Excuse me while I go vomit... And just above that:


> _Originally from the newsletter_
> *Soke Kent and Linda Bergstrom were in Norway...*


Soke of what?! The Hair Club for Men?

Jeff


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## Cryozombie

Am I just stupid?  Doesnt Soke denote the head of an art?

If so, is it possible for an art to have more than one head?


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## Jay Bell

Yes...one Soke per ryu....unless it's Gikan ryu


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## Jeff Boler

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *Am I just stupid?  Doesnt Soke denote the head of an art?
> 
> If so, is it possible for an art to have more than one head? *



Ah.  Mr Sacharnoski is the only head of "his" arts.  What he does is recognize people as the head of "their" own arts (with a yearly fee of course.

Mr Sacharnoski is about to have his *ss handed to him though.  More information when I'm allowed to release it.


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## Jay Bell

I smell a courtroom?


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## Jeff Boler

:rofl:


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## heretic888

Dear Buddha, this is sad..... 

almost as sad as the people that still believe Frank Dux is legit.  

*sighs*


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## Dennis_Mahon

> Mr Sacharnoski is about to have his *ss handed to him though. More information when I'm allowed to release it.



Jeff, you horrible tease :lol: 

You know that's going to have everybody hanging on your every post waiting for the other shoe to drop! :boing2:


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## Jeff Boler

I know, I know.  But I made a promise to keep my mouth shut for another week or two.  After that, you will be the first to know.


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## ABN

> _Originally posted by Jeff Boler _
> *Ah.  Mr Sacharnoski is the only head of "his" arts.  What he does is recognize people as the head of "their" own arts (with a yearly fee of course.
> *




Sounds kind of like Amway......


andy


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## Kreth

I heard a rumor out of Japan, and have since confirmed with Don Roley. Hatsumi Sensei has revoked Sacharnoski's honorary judan. Apparently his opinion of "Soke" Sacharnoski has changed...

Jeff


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## Bujingodai

Yes but he holds a legit Yondan thru Wilson Shihan from what I have heard. How will that be affected?


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## Kreth

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Yes but he holds a legit Yondan thru Wilson Shihan from what I have heard. How will that be affected?


I haven't heard anything about it. But, I stand by my previous opinion that Sacharnoski will not sit for a godan test in Japan anytime soon. 

Jeff


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## Bujingodai

Good.


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## Jeff Boler

Good ole Rodney.

So.  Rod got his "honorary" dan rank taken from him huh?  Out of curiousity, did Hatsumi request the document back?  Was Rod notified of the revoke?  If not, he will continue to use it as he sees fit, with the "I have the document to prove it" defense lurking in the shadows.

As for the Godan test, Rod never had intentions on taking it (until Willson is allowed to do the test.)  He can do everything he wants to do with a fourth dan.

I can only recommend to the person that informed Hatsumi of Rod's mis-deeds, that he keep himself "anonymous."  Otherwise, he'll be looking at a defamation suit!


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## Kreth

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Out of curiousity, did Hatsumi request the document back?  Was Rod notified of the revoke?  If not, he will continue to use it as he sees fit, with the "I have the document to prove it" defense lurking in the shadows.


I don't have that info, Jeff. I doubt that word has gotten back to Sacharnoski yet, though, as this happened just a few days ago. I just waited long enough to confirm the story before posting it.

Jeff


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## Jeff Boler

Well, that's interesting.  Very positive move for the Bujinkan, in my opinion.


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## Kreth

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Well, that's interesting.  Very positive move for the Bujinkan, in my opinion.


Mine too. We have enough empire builders and rank chasers. No need to bring in outside quacks...

Jeff


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## Don Roley

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Good ole Rodney.
> 
> So.  Rod got his "honorary" dan rank taken from him huh?  Out of curiousity, did Hatsumi request the document back?  Was Rod notified of the revoke?  If not, he will continue to use it as he sees fit, with the "I have the document to prove it" defense lurking in the shadows.



There is no international Bujinkan goon squad to go around and collect the thing. But I am sure there are many Bujinkan members who would jump at the chance to join one. And I think you are right based on the actions of another guy who has had his honorary rank revoked- Testuya Higuchi.



			
				Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> As for the Godan test, Rod never had intentions on taking it (until Willson is allowed to do the test.)



I honestly think the chances of that are less than those for us seeing Ralph Nader win next November. And no I am not going to talk more about it here.




			
				Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I can only recommend to the person that informed Hatsumi of Rod's mis-deeds, that he keep himself "anonymous."  Otherwise, he'll be looking at a defamation suit!



The beauty of the recent win by Cunningham is that Hatsumi can point to it as reason if asked. He does not have to give anyone's name. Rod can't say it was someone making up stories, it is a legal fact that no one can dispute and can be verified by anyone on their own.


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## Jeff Boler

Don Roley said:
			
		

> There is no international Bujinkan goon squad to go around and collect the thing. But I am sure there are many Bujinkan members who would jump at the chance to join one. And I think you are right based on the actions of another guy who has had his honorary rank revoked- Testuya Higuchi.



I beg to differ.  There are several international Bujinkan goon squads.  They just call themselves "teachers."



> I honestly think the chances of that are less than those for us seeing Ralph Nader win next November. And no I am not going to talk more about it here.



You're probably right.  But considering some of things I have heard about Willson, I am amazed that he has reached the rank he has.  Since most of his previous mis-deeds have gone ignored, what's another rank or honor?




> The beauty of the recent win by Cunningham is that Hatsumi can point to it as reason if asked. He does not have to give anyone's name. Rod can't say it was someone making up stories, it is a legal fact that no one can dispute and can be verified by anyone on their own.



Well it's being disputed.  Sacharnoski is already attempting to have the judgement vacated.  Who knows what will happen from this point.  Either way, knowing Sacharnoski, this person can at the very least expect some sort of legal threat, if not a physical one.


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## Don Roley

Hi,
Check out the following link.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5177&page=1

You will see that Ryan Reed has stated what I did not, that Hatsumi has refused to renew Sacharnoski's Shidoshikai membership. Of course, you have to kind of filter out the misdirection and their contention that he does not need it due to being an honorary tenth dan, but he does say that Sacharnoski is not a Shidoshikai member _at least_ until he wins a court case. He has had two go against him so far, I would not hold my breath waiting for him to be re-instated.

For those of you who do not know what that means, real rank is not revoked in the Bujinkan. If you pass the fifth dan test, the fact you had that skill does not go away no matter how vile a thing you may do later on. But all people who teach in the Bujinkan are required to be members of the shidoshikai. You have to renew each year to be a teacher in good standing. If you are not a member, then you can not say you are a Bujinkan teacher. So, Sacharnoski can't teach Bujinkan in good faith- and don't say it Jeff. We are all thinking it anyway.


----------



## Jeff Boler

Well, this is definitely the right move for Hatsumi.  And as expected, the Juko Kai rank and file is right there to back up Sacharnoski.  Regardless of all the information that is available, they stick behind him.  One of the classic traits of any cult.

I find it funny that they keep saying things such as, "This will be reviewed when Sacharnoski's legal matters have been resolved."  They have been resolved.  The legal case he filed against me and Don Cunningham was dismissed.  The case brought on against him by Don Cunningham, he lost.  That's two judgments against him.

Now, he is seeking to have the judgment in the harassment / forgery case vacated.  However, he has not succeeded in that as of yet.  Even if he does have it vacated, it will still go to trial, and the evidence that Don Cunningham has against him is extensive.  The previous case took over two years just to get a motion for venue change resolved.  Once it was resolved, he never paid the transfer and copy fees.  Therefore, it was tossed.  So you can expect this latest case to be wrapped up for at least that long.

So the Bujinkan Brotherhood can twist words around however they want.  Fact of the matter is that if you go look at the court record (which is what really matters) Sacharnoski has lost two cases, one of those for harassment and forgery.   So while the Brotherhood (lovingly referred to as the Collective) continues to go around whining about people lying to Hatsumi about Sacharnoski, the court record speaks for itself.  It's not rumors being spread around anymore.

Hopefully, some of the other organizations that Sacharnoski is "associated" with, will look at this information, and make similar decisions.







			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Check out the following link.
> 
> http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5177&page=1
> 
> You will see that Ryan Reed has stated what I did not, that Hatsumi has refused to renew Sacharnoski's Shidoshikai membership. Of course, you have to kind of filter out the misdirection and their contention that he does not need it due to being an honorary tenth dan, but he does say that Sacharnoski is not a Shidoshikai member _at least_ until he wins a court case. He has had two go against him so far, I would not hold my breath waiting for him to be re-instated.
> 
> For those of you who do not know what that means, real rank is not revoked in the Bujinkan. If you pass the fifth dan test, the fact you had that skill does not go away no matter how vile a thing you may do later on. But all people who teach in the Bujinkan are required to be members of the shidoshikai. You have to renew each year to be a teacher in good standing. If you are not a member, then you can not say you are a Bujinkan teacher. So, Sacharnoski can't teach Bujinkan in good faith- and don't say it Jeff. We are all thinking it anyway.


----------



## Don Roley

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I find it funny that they keep saying things such as, "This will be reviewed when Sacharnoski's legal matters have been resolved."



And what would you have them do? The whole thing is a variation of "the check is in the mail" bit. Put off something as long as you can and demand people treat you as something other than a fraud until this action takes place. 

It could be a legal case clearing a person's name, research being conducted, a trip to Japan where the teacher will be revealed, etc. I have seen it all. "Don't treat us according to all the facts availible because some time in the future we will provide something that counters it." The only other option for them is to try to deal with all the facts (or lack of them) and you can't imagine some of them wanting to act that way with all the problems they have on the table.

In other words, I expect a lot of talk from them. But after all the judgements against them I doubt they will not be in a rush to see justice done. I kind of expect that is the reason one of the cases took about two years to be resolved.


----------



## Bujingodai

So whats the latest word on this issue?

I do take issue with something, if Saks honourary 10th dan is just nothing.

Why does Hatsumi Sensei advert all the 3 billion honourary belts and certs he has?
My old Shidoshi told me that Hatsumi has black belts in almost every Japanese art as well. Is this misinformation. This was while training in the Bujinkan.


----------



## Cryozombie

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> So whats the latest word on this issue?
> 
> I do take issue with something, if Saks honourary 10th dan is just nothing.
> 
> Why does Hatsumi Sensei advert all the 3 billion honourary belts and certs he has?
> My old Shidoshi told me that Hatsumi has black belts in almost every Japanese art as well. Is this misinformation. This was while training in the Bujinkan.



I dont know SPECIFICALLY which ones he (Sensei Hatsumi) has... but I feel that its one thing to claim to have an Honorary Rank in (Insert art here) 

Its another thing to claim to have a Rank in (insert art here) AND to claim to teach that art, when you have no formal training in it and only an honorary rank.

If my understanding of what I read on the Juko-kai website was true, they were TEACHING a Ninjutsu class under that Honorary rank... 

Thats what I see as the difference between Hatsumi Sensei and Mr. Sacharnoski.  

Dunno.  :idunno:


----------



## Bujingodai

OK I did know about the Judan being honourary. My point is that while I have had Kan Shidoshi make big happy about all the recognition Hatsumi has and everyone downplays Saks 10th. Personally I don't give a crap, I think it was a poor move considering the amount of issues that is surrounding him.
I do know that Sak has or had a 4th dan, which under the "guidance" of a Shidoshi he can teach and issue certain rank. Of which he was right? I just wanted to know if that still exists. I would be assured that Wilson Sensei, who is the benchmark of rank in Canada would see to it that a serious assosiation of his would continue in the path that the brotherhood set out (brotherhood being Wilsons org)

Again I was just asking, and well it doesn't affect me at all. Unless Don figures I am going to try and get a grade from someone else. 

Do you think Rod would grade me too? :uhyeah:


----------



## Don Roley

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I do know that Sak has or had a 4th dan, which under the "guidance" of a Shidoshi he can teach and issue certain rank.



I used to think that he had a fourth dan too based on a  letter I got from Kent Bergstrom. But in this post Jeffrey Wilson says,


> During his training Dr. Sacharnoski has earned a nidan and his shidoshi-ho license. As his grade suggests he was only "allowed" to grade up to shodan in the Bujinkan.



Of course, most things that they say are suspect. But I guess we can assume that he is only a second dan. And no, that rank does not go away, only the  honorary one.

But I am sure that there will be a Jukokai-ryu ninjutsu formed in the near future based on Rod's "extensive training over the decades in ninjutsu." Anyone want to bet against me? %-}


----------



## Bujingodai

No can't say I'd wager against that one.


----------



## Jeff Boler

He's grading in it already.  He recently announced that he had graded several Juko Kai members as Shodans.  (One who claims lineage to a Koga Ryu style as well)

As for the possibility of him creating a Ninpo division (his own), you can almost count on it.  If you read the current "historical" information that is on his site, he now claims to have created his own style of Dai-Yoshin Ryu, after years of telling people that he actually inherited it, and even submitted that statement in court documents.  You can expect the same with Ninpo, if it comes to that.

The question is, what will Hatsumi do when this last court case is finalized?  Remember....he already lost the case once.  Now, he's trying to have the judgement vacated.  However, I heard yesterday that he's actually trying to have the case settled.  What happens then?  I always view "settlements" as admissions of guilt, while saving your ***.


----------



## r.severe

In my opinion&#8230;.
On the subject or ranking being revoked.
It would be very strange to revoke a person&#8217;s ranking in a system of martial arts.
The system would have to have some type of agreement before the student received the ranking to be able to revoke the license.
If not then it is foolish to believe the ranking can be just taken away without the agreement.
Of course this person could be asked to leave the organization, if they were a member in the first place.
I have spoken with and done a demo for the jukokai here in Dallas in 1992 at SMU. They were a very good group of people.
After the demo Mr Ron sent a letter to Hatsumi sensei in Japan about my efforts.
Hatsumi sensei replied with good feelings during our conversations about Mr Ron.
I have a copy of the letter in my files if I remember correctly.
The question would be if Mr Ron is license by Hatsumi sensei with any ranking.
If so it should be between Mr Ron and Hatsumi sensei. Not a forum or group of teachers to speak of him poorly because of skills or knowledge of the license Hatsumi sensei has given him. Honorary or not. 
These are not becoming efforts of a warrior to create lies, ill feelings or gossip towards a human being. 

If you feel poorly about a license then why not take it up face to face with Mr Ron? Honor my friends.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley

Wow Ralph, even for you that was a rather bizzarre post.

Who is "mr Ron"? I thought you were talking about Rod S and just made a typo on his name, but you used "ron" instead of "Rod" every time. You don't know the proper name of a person you are so close to?

And, if you take the time to try to comprehend what is going on, you will see that it is not the rank that John Wilson gave Rod that is being revoked, the honorary rank that Hatsumi gave Rod is being revoked. And I already discussed how real rank is never revoked but honorary rank is.

And then there is the fact that Rod no longer has a shidoshikai membership, Hatsumi refused to renew it. If you do not have a shidoshikai liscense you don't havve permision to teach Bujinkan. Many people have tried to say otherwise, but if you ask Hatsumi he will back this up.

So you are friends with Rod? Can't say I am surprised that two guys of your shared charecter would look out for each other. In just about every respect, trustworthiness, skills, way of treating people, you and Rod strike me as about the same. I am sure there are many people looking at you guys ina  new light based on what you ahve revealed here.


----------



## r.severe

Who is "mr Ron"? 
Donny, we are writing about the same person.. I rather use Ron. Any problems with that? I don't think so....
In regards to the ranking being revoked.. I rather see it written in Hatsumi sensei handwriting before spreading rumors. You have proven not to be trustworthy or very honorable. 
Not that it any of your business.
I am a not friend with Ron.
I did a demo for him.
Please don&#8217;t twist my post Donny, your agendas don't go with my humor very well.

Better luck next time Donny.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> Who is "mr Ron"?
> Donny, we are writing about the same person.. I rather use Ron. Any problems with that? I don't think so....



The problem is, his name isn't Ron...



			
				r.severe said:
			
		

> In regards to the ranking being revoked.. I rather see it written in Hatsumi sensei handwriting before spreading rumors. You have proven not to be trustworthy or very honorable.



And of course, you are not going to be able to point anyone in a direction where they can see how I am supposably not honorable for themselves. You are just going to try to bait me by calling me "Donny" and such. 

I am sure that the people whose opinions I care about will take my word and Kreth's and not yours.


----------



## r.severe

Donny,
Fortunately your reputation with agendas follow you where ever you go.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> Donny,
> Fortunately your reputation with agendas follow you where ever you go.
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama



Nice, typical attack while ducking the responsibility of providing proof.

But what type of attack are you going ot make against Jeff Velten (Kreth) in order to provide cover for Rod S? He is the one who originally made the announcement here. What is his motivation for lying? For that matter, what is mine?


----------



## Jeff Boler

r.severe said:
			
		

> In my opinion.
> On the subject or ranking being revoked.
> It would be very strange to revoke a persons ranking in a system of martial arts.
> The system would have to have some type of agreement before the student received the ranking to be able to revoke the license.


It would be strange?  I have always required students to sign off on a "code of conduct."  If any of the rules in this "code" are violated, then they will lose their ranks, titles, etc., depending on the severity of the violation.  Regardless, Sacharnoski holds an "Honorary" 10th Dan.  It would be very silly to revoke someones "honorary" rank.  I believe Hatsumi refused to sign off on his Shidoshikai license, pending the outcome of the court cases Sacharnoski is involved in.  (Both of which, have really already been determined.)   Very smart move on Hatsumi's part.



> If not then it is foolish to believe the ranking can be just taken away without the agreement. Of course this person could be asked to leave the organization, if they were a member in the first place. I have spoken with and done a demo for the jukokai here in Dallas in 1992 at SMU. They were a very good group of people.



Yes, and they always appear to be a "nice, christian" group of individuals.  Until you dig a bit further.  Sacharnoski depends on their "brotherhood" to maintain his "status."  Anyone who can read can easily see how Sacharonski has twisted the truth to make him appear to be "better."  If I remember correctly, it was Kent Bergstrom who used to have the signature that stated, "Right or Wrong, I stand behind my sensei."  That should tell you two things.  Number one, Bergstrom at least admitted to the possibility that Sacharnoski has in fact lied, and number two, Bergstrom doesn't care, and stands behind the misdeeds anyway.  That's the way  Jukokai works.



> After the demo Mr Ron sent a letter to Hatsumi sensei in Japan about my efforts.  Hatsumi sensei replied with good feelings during our conversations about Mr Ron.I have a copy of the letter in my files if I remember correctly.



Sacharnoski does this alot, in an attempt to further bolster his recognitions and claims.  Look at the Hontai Yoshin Ryu situation.  He spent time over there, doing demonstrations and such, and then when he got back home, he requested the approval to "represent" the arts in the US.



> The question would be if Mr Ron is license by Hatsumi sensei with any ranking.
> If so it should be between Mr Ron and Hatsumi sensei. Not a forum or group of teachers to speak of him poorly because of skills or knowledge of the license Hatsumi sensei has given him. Honorary or not.
> These are not becoming efforts of a warrior to create lies, ill feelings or gossip towards a human being.



So, informing the general public about Sacharnoski's mis-deeds is not "becoming of a warrior", but lying about your past, lineages, recognitions, etc., is ok by your standards?  Sacharnoski has repeatadly, and continues, to lie about his history, ranks, associations, etc., all in an attempt to further bolster his self-proclaimed title of " Wests highest graded, non-Asian martial arts master".



> If you feel poorly about a license then why not take it up face to face with Mr Ron? Honor my friends.



Ahhh....I was expecting this.  This is another tactic that Jukokai-ites like to use.  "If you have a problem with me, tell me to my face."  It's no longer necessary Ralph.  It's been done through the court system.  



> ralph severe, kamiyama



I must say that I am quite surprised by your backing of this individual.  I know your viewpoints don't always jive with those of your Bujinkan comrades (which in alot of cases, is good).  However, I never expect to see you back and support such a fraud.  Just a question, this demonstration that you did for Rod.  Were you paid for it?


----------



## tshadowchaser

Gentelmen please get on with the disscussion and stop the attacks on each other
 I might be able to learn something of your arts if you would disscuss them a little more than you do personalities


----------



## Jeff Boler

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Gentelmen please get on with the disscussion and stop the attacks on each other
> I might be able to learn something of your arts if you would disscuss them a little more than you do personalities



Please do not view my post as an "attack" on Ralph. I would simply like him to clarify his statements, and what appears to be his public support of Mr. Sacharnoski, nothing more.


----------



## r.severe

I must say that I am quite surprised by your backing of this individual. Just a question, this demonstration that you did for Rod. Were you paid for it?

Jeff, I no time have I supported Ron. 
I have supported honor - respect between people.
His assumed illness or problems are not really what should be written about by others over the web or forum.
Hear say of what Hatsumi sensei feels or thinks is unwholesome.
It does NO ONE justice.
Hatsumi seseni is wise and careful from my experiece around him.
But as students of a martial way it is not our place to disrespect a fellow martial artist or human being for that matter.
That's fourm paper dragon stuff.

And no, I would never take monies for showing any skills during a demo to anyone.

Thanks for the concern.. why not e-mail me personally if you have questions regarding my feelings next time..

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Jeff Boler

Thanks for the response Ralph.  I did not email you for answers, as your statements were made in a public forum.  I do, however, appreciate your response.

Hatsumi is very wise.  However, I think that he was taken advantage of in this situation.  By being located in Japan, it is quite easy for someone from Canada to approach him, and bolster the claims and reputation of someone from the US.  Since Mr. Hatsumi does not visit the internet, nor does he spend a whole lot of time in America, it's quite easy to see why he would just take someone's word for Sacharnoski's standing.  Hadhe been aware of the truth regarding the man before hand, I can't believe that he would have ever issues such an honorary rank in the first place.



> But as students of a martial way it is not our place to disrespect a fellow martial artist or human being for that matter.



I disagree.  Respect must be earned.  That being said, I appreciate your reponses.


----------



## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> I have supported honor - respect between people.



I have trouble understanding how you think that Jeff Velten and I passing along information about a guy who has abused Hatsumi's kindness getting his honorary rank removed is somehow not honorable, but 
posts like this by you somehow fills your description of "I have supported honor - respect between people." It is really kind of bizarre that you feel that we should shut up about this because it does not encourage respect, when the guy who you are defending does nothing to earn respect.

I am used to the tactic of attacking the messenger of distressing news to a fraud. I stand by what I say and have heard here in Japan. The attacks on my charecter I have received from people like "Kamiyama" (snicker, snort) and the Juko-kai is nothing new to me. The fact remains that if you go ask Hatsumi he will back my version of events and not the ones Ralph Severe and the Juko-kai are trying to get people to believe. And of course, being unable to provide any fact, logic or proof, the most common tactic of people like Severe and the Juko-kai is to attack the person carrying the message.

The fact remains, Rod S is no longer allowed to use the Bujinkan name to teach, but there has been no change in his web site. His honorary rank has been revoked.


----------



## r.severe

Thanks Donny...
But the problem with what you state is I do not train in fantasy kobujutsu or have that mindset to understand your post.
It is of course twisted and remains clouded with misconceptions and hearsay.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> Thanks Donny...
> But the problem with what you state is I do not train in fantasy kobujutsu or have that mindset to understand your post.
> It is of course twisted and remains clouded with misconceptions and hearsay.
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama



Damn if the above does not remind me of what Sharp Phil wrote when he penned the following.



> SAY WHAT?
> 
> It is very important to the average VS or VTG that he or she project the illusion of great wisdom. Often this is accomplished by being cryptic for its own sake. When others cannot understand you  or when you decide that individual words have no meaning  then anything and everything one says can be considered profound. A Virtual Sensei/Tough Guy can use this trait as a defense mechanism by meeting criticism with more impenetrable pseudo-wisdom. Those who respond to say the rebuttal is meaningless will be met with the smug proclamation that they simply do not understand. "Say what?" is thus a very versatile and self-perpetuating character trait that both identifies and defends martial arts frauds.



You can find the article at his site here.

Of course, it does not explain how you can act like you did in the post I gave the link to, and yet say that passing along information I have heard in Japan is somehow not honorable. Care to try again? :uhyeah:


----------



## r.severe

Donny,
LOL... 
Now you know those post and e-mails were twisted and rewritten as well as jokes and replies to jokes from others.

Knowing this as you well do know that these were jokes and rewritten - twisted... Hey you most likely rewritten a few yourself Donny..LOL.. be honest.. You shouldn't take those as fact in your search for how to escape your fantasy you are saying is reality.

Come on.. get real.

thank you,

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> Donny,
> LOL...
> Now you know those post and e-mails were twisted and rewritten as well as jokes and replies to jokes from others.
> 
> Knowing this as you well do know that these were jokes and rewritten - twisted... Hey you most likely rewritten a few yourself Donny..LOL.. be honest.. You shouldn't take those as fact in your search for how to escape your fantasy you are saying is reality.
> 
> Come on.. get real.
> 
> thank you,
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama



Does anyone other than Ralph understand just what the heck he is supposed to be accusing me of? I gave links to what he said, you can all see the context in which he made them, etc. So how the heck am I supposed to have "twisted" and "rewritten" what he said? I do not even know what e-mails he is reffering to.

To me, it just sounds like his typical illogical self trying to bluff over serious problems. But can anyone else perhaps make sense of what he is babbling about?


----------



## r.severe

Donny,
Why not give it a break.
Get back to something meaningful?

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> Donny,
> Why not give it a break.
> Get back to something meaningful?
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama



So, you can't make a clear statement? 

I was doing something meaningful. I had told people about Rod S having his honorary rank and shidoshikai membership revoked. Then you started in saying that we should not talk about such things and you refuse to make a meaningful explination as to why.

Par for the course with the paper mountain.


----------



## r.severe

Donny, 
Why are you so immature and hateful?
What drives you to be so immature and hateful?
What is it about your own heart that troubles you so much you fester such hate?

For someone who confess such Japanese training with the gods and have so much info on history.. you sure are immature and hateful...
If this is what Japan training does for the heart... count me out.. no thanks.

You just have NO reason or knowledge to back up your on-going hateful statements... towards any other human being.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley

Ralph,
If you are going ot be so disruptive, maybe you want to go elsewhere. You can not get away with your typical behavior here.

We were discussing the fact that Rod S had his honorary judan revoked and his right to teach Bujinkan taken away. Then you came in and tried to shut us up by saying it was not honorable. But when asked for reasons why, you turn disruptive and start attacking others. I still do not understand the statement, "But the problem with what you state is I do not train in fantasy kobujutsu or have that mindset to understand your post." or what it has to do with the subject at hand.

So just stop the disruptions. We will discuss all the problems with the Juko-kai if we want and there is nothing you can do to shut us up.


----------



## r.severe

So ?

Donny have I said anything to trouble you ?

What are you really up to?
What are you hiding behind those twisted post?
What's your agenda Donny?

Hey... 
Your seem to be such a hateful person Donny.
You seem to be really unhappy and out to be disrespectful towards who ever you dislike.

What's the basic problem Donny in your life that is causing these problems?

Maybe the same problems ron s. has... ?

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley

Thank you for the laugh Ralph. Your behavior always brings a smile to my lips.

But if you are through trying to disrupt, distract and attack, could you think about giving a logical explination as to why Jeff Velten and I are not honorable for letting people know about the Status of Rod S, while you seem free to act the way you do?

I would really like to see you provide an argument that is consistent in its logic as to why you can do what you have done, but we should not do what we have done. It would probably bring me an even larger smile.

So please, try to explain why we should not talk about Rod S and how his honorary rank has been revoked, but you can attack, make fun of and threaten people like you do.

Oh, and why the heck are you still calling him "Ron" instead of "Rod"?


----------



## Don Roley

Here is something I think everyone should see.

http://jukokai.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Apage&file=index&rpage=8

More specifically, this quote should raise some eyebrows.



> Sacharnoski Soke has headed the Juko-Kai Okuden division for many years teaching the stealthy arts as he learned them throughout his martial arts career.**As many of you may know, Hatsumi Soke recently honored him and his accomplishments with a high grading from the Bujinkan.**



Actually, those that think of Rod Sacharnoski as a lying fraud wil not be surprised. But all those folks like Kent who say that he is somehow being honest will have toruble explaining how the word "honorary" seems to have been dropped from the description and has not been corrected despite all the time he has had to correct it.

And the mention of stealthy training he has recieved throughout his career makes me want to fall off my chair laughing. I assume he must be talking about his links with those fake Koga guys.


----------



## Jeff Boler

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Here is something I think everyone should see.
> 
> http://jukokai.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Apage&file=index&rpage=8
> 
> More specifically, this quote should raise some eyebrows.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, those that think of Rod Sacharnoski as a lying fraud wil not be surprised. But all those folks like Kent who say that he is somehow being honest will have toruble explaining how the word "honorary" seems to have been dropped from the description and has not been corrected despite all the time he has had to correct it.
> 
> And the mention of stealthy training he has recieved throughout his career makes me want to fall off my chair laughing. I assume he must be talking about his links with those fake Koga guys.



Rod has claimed "Okuden" training for sometime.  Now what that actually is, is anybody's guess.  My understanding is that is some form of Okinawan training, perhaps part of his "Toide" training.  Who knows, who cares.

It's my opinion that Rod was only seeking recognition from the Bujinkan to legitimize himself as "Koryu."  (Which is funny, because even the Bujinkan has had trouble doing that.  But that's another post.)  One of the statements that Rod had so much trouble with during the first trial, was that "No known legitimate Japanese Koryu association ever recognized Juko Kai."  In the court documents, he used the "Bujinkan", or actually, "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu" in an attempt at debunking this statement.

What I really wish would happen is that Rod would just admit his wrong doings, and move on.  I dare say that the rank and file Juko Kai membership would still stay with him.  Heck, maybe even Hatsumi himself would re-issue that Shidoshikai license.  But he refuses to do that, regardless of the vast amounts of information there is about him.  

It's sad really. :redcaptur


----------



## Cthulhu

Warning

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-


----------



## Don Roley

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> It's my opinion that Rod was only seeking recognition from the Bujinkan to legitimize himself as "Koryu."  (Which is funny, because even the Bujinkan has had trouble doing that.  But that's another post.)  One of the statements that Rod had so much trouble with during the first trial, was that "No known legitimate Japanese Koryu association ever recognized Juko Kai."  In the court documents, he used the "Bujinkan", or actually, "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu" in an attempt at debunking this statement.



The thing is, the Bujinkan is not a koryu orginization like the ones that orginize events at Meiji shrine. The guys that put on the demos there are not koryu orginizations. They are schools. The Bujinkan is a school. It is not an orginization that looks at records and claims and determines if they are koryu or not. And THAT is what is meant by a Japanese Koryu Association.

And Hatsumi never recognized the Juko-kai. He gave Rod S an honorary rank, and Wilson promoted him to 2nd dan- just high enough so that with a shidoshiho liscense he could promote people to black belt himself. So his attempts to use the Bujinkan name were fraudulant. Is anyone surprised?



			
				Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> What I really wish would happen is that Rod would just admit his wrong doings, and move on.  I dare say that the rank and file Juko Kai membership would still stay with him.  Heck, maybe even Hatsumi himself would re-issue that Shidoshikai license.



I do not think that Hatsumi will ever do that. I can't really say much, but based on stories I have heard, it looks like the chances of Rod getting back into the Bujinkan are rather slim to none. Only one other person I know of has ever gotten back into the Bujinkan after a blow up like this. And he had to show remorse in person and have at least one Japanese teacher serve as a gurenter (I know the spelling is off- I mean someone who will take responsibility for him) for the guy. I do nto think Rod will be showing up to Japan soon. And I know at least one guy who has expressed glee at the idea of seeing the brotherhood when they say they will be here next March.


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## Jeff Boler

Don Roley said:
			
		

> The thing is, the Bujinkan is not a koryu orginization like the ones that orginize events at Meiji shrine. The guys that put on the demos there are not koryu orginizations. They are schools. The Bujinkan is a school. It is not an orginization that looks at records and claims and determines if they are koryu or not. And THAT is what is meant by a Japanese Koryu Association.
> 
> And Hatsumi never recognized the Juko-kai. He gave Rod S an honorary rank, and Wilson promoted him to 2nd dan- just high enough so that with a shidoshiho liscense he could promote people to black belt himself. So his attempts to use the Bujinkan name were fraudulant. Is anyone surprised?



Well of course not.  To Rod, links to Japan are all that is really important.  The "Bujinkan" issue is always going to be there, as long as John Willson is a member of both organizations.  I think if you read the information concerning the Juko Kai Ninpo division, it has been changed to reflect the fact that John Willson heads that divison, not Rod Sacharnoski.  I'm sure this is due to Hatsumi not renewing the Shidoshikai license.  Otherwise, Rod's name would be all over it, because it's always, "Me, Me, Me."



> I do not think that Hatsumi will ever do that. I can't really say much, but based on stories I have heard, it looks like the chances of Rod getting back into the Bujinkan are rather slim to none. Only one other person I know of has ever gotten back into the Bujinkan after a blow up like this. And he had to show remorse in person and have at least one Japanese teacher serve as a gurenter (I know the spelling is off- I mean someone who will take responsibility for him) for the guy. I do nto think Rod will be showing up to Japan soon. And I know at least one guy who has expressed glee at the idea of seeing the brotherhood when they say they will be here next March.



Can we really call this a "blow-up?"  From what I have heard, it was really nothing more than a private conversation between Willson and Hatsumi.  And I would think that if Rod came to the point that he simply admitted that he was wrong, and tried to make some positive change, that Hatsumi probably would let him back in, maybe with limits.  You would know better than I, but I would think that such a move would be honorable enough that Hatsumi would probably consider it.

I've seen the word "Fraud" used in a couple of forums, and I think a point needs to be made here.  Rod WAS NOT convicted of Fraud.  He lost his case against myself and Don Cunningham for Defamation.  He didn't lose that case on the merits (however he most certainly would have), but on the fact that he did not continue the case by filing the proper fees.  I think through all of the documented evidence that we had, it was clear (at least to his attorney's) that this case was not going to go anywhere for him.

The other case that he lost was for Forgery and Telephone Harrassment.  This case was brought on by Mr. Cunningham.  According to Sacharnoski, he was not served papers properly.  It basically becomes his word, against that of the process server.  He is contesting the judgement, but as of right now, he lost this case too.

So he has not lost any case involving the accusation of Fraud.  However, it could easily be argued that he fits the profile.  According to the dictionary, a Fraud is:



> A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain



It also means:



> One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.



I think that if Rod simply admitted to everything, and changed all of his literature to reflect the truth, people would still stand behind him.  Unfortunately, pride seems to be keeping him from it.


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## Don Cunningham

I wish you Bujinkan guys would get this issue clarified once and for all. I have offered again to settle my case with Rod, agreeing to drop the civil charges and judgment in return for an agreement that he and his Juko-Kai followers cease harassing me. However, Rod apparently wanted to include a statement denying any personal guilt inthe matter. In my opinion, it's because of all the stuff with the Bujinkan and his ranks.

We allowed another hearing for their reply to my motion to be delayed because Rod's attorney wanted to discuss this settlement agreement again with Rod. However, someone decided it might be funny to call my house and make more threats this Saturday morning.

Unless the Bujinkan makes it clear about Rod's status, I doubt we can ever reach any settlement agreement. I'm willing to drop my complaint, since it is just a monetary drain with no end in sight, but I am not about to sign anything stating that he is not guilty. My complaint against him was proven in court, resulting in a $50,000 judgment. Now he suggests he was not served the summons properly, not that he was uninvolved in the harassment.

Let's remember that Rod personally started this campaign of threats and intimidation. He further challenged me to check his martial arts credentials, then tried to sue me for libel and slander when my research indicated they were mostly false. He incited his supporters with deragatory comments about me and false status about the legal complaint while soliciting funds in his Juko-Kai newsletters. When his complaint was eventually thrown out of court, his supporters began harassing me. Now it seems to have started all over again.

http://e-budokai.com/jukokai/

I refuse to be intimidated by threats. Who would? But I don't care if Rod claims to be teaching Bujinkan arts or not. He's claimed a lot of things in the past.


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## stephen

Don Cunningham said:
			
		

> I wish you Bujinkan guys would get this issue clarified once and for all. I have offered again to settle my case with Rod, agreeing to drop the civil charges and judgment in return for an agreement that he and his Juko-Kai followers cease harassing me. However, Rod apparently wanted to include a statement denying any personal guilt inthe matter. In my opinion, it's because of all the stuff with the Bujinkan and his ranks.
> 
> ...clip...
> 
> Unless the Bujinkan makes it clear about Rod's status, I doubt we can ever reach any settlement agreement.



Waiting for the Bujinkan to "make something clear".... hmmm....ummm...hope you brought snacks.

Steve


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## Frank Anford

:idunno: I don't get all this stuff:idunno: 
seems like Ralph Severe is the only one that has any respect for people in general.


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## Cryozombie

:feedtroll


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## Don Cunningham

To those who complain that Mr. Sacharnoski would never resort to the same tactics, I would remind you of the Robert Clarke incident. Tom Baldwin provided a British Martial Arts Commission's report on Robert Clarke. The MAC, a government-sponsored agency, investigated the claims that Rod Sacharnoski and others had made against Mr. Clarke. This 1990 report not only included a number of allegations of fraud made by Mr. Sacharnoski, but the evidence Mr. Clarke used to defend his actions. 

First, the commission found no evidence to support Mr. Sacharnoski's claims his organization names or symbols are registered or trademarked in the U.K. or internationally as he alleges.

Second, there are several references to various martial arts organizations with addresses in Japan and used as letterhead which are shown to be complete fictions.

Third, it included a summary report by a special investigation committee from the European Jui-Jutsu Federation which found Mr. Sacharnoski's third dan rank and "Okinawan Jujutsu" clams to be totally false and "most likely fabricated by Mr. Sacharnoski." It refers to the "self-styled arts" of Juko-Ryu.

Finally, there are several certificates allegedly awarded to Mr. Sacharnoski. (My favorite was one in which he refers to his own title as "Supreme Grandmaster.") These are signed in English characters by several former instructors of Mr. Sacharnoski. The most interesting aspect, though, is that the Japanese stamps used to seal their names are either Mr. Sacharnoski's own name or the one he used for Juko-Kai or Juko-Ryu. In his complaint, Mr. Sacharnoski alleged that Mr. Clarke was selling diplomas with his Japanese seals. I compared the seals with those from the certificates and they are the same. I can not imagine any circumstance in which any Japanese person would sign their name and then use someone else's seal.


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## Jeff Boler

Interesting.  Looks like the next tactic for the "collective" will be to keep their members off of the net.  Considering the damage it has done, who could blame them.

http://www.bujinkancanada.com/


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## Don Cunningham

> 4. Those not upholding the guidelines of the Bujinkan, either as practitioners or as members of society, by committing disgraceful or reproachable acts shall be expelled. Until now, the Bujinkan was open to large numbers of people who came to Japan. Among them, unfortunately, were those committing violent drunken acts, the mentally ill, and trouble makers who thought only of themselves and failed to see how their actions might adversely affect others. Through their actions, such people were discarding the traditional righteous heart of the Bujinkan. From this day forward, all such people shall be expelled.
> 
> Those not upholding the above-mentioned guidelines shall be forced out of the Bujinkan.


I found these statements as part of the guidelines for participation in the Bujinkan. 

If any more evidence required to prove "disgraceful or reproachable acts" than shown here is required, I can't think what that could possibly be. These are open court records, available in the public domain. Anyone is free to investigate them to confirm for themselves.

It would be really cool if they were to actually enforce their guidelines. Otherwise, it just seems like empty platitudes...


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## r.severe

Jeff states, "Heck, maybe even Hatsumi himself would re-issue that Shidoshikai license".

Hey Jeff, I have a shidoshi license but it states nothing about shidoshikai on it...
With the current status quo.. of the Bujinkan.. I wouldn't say the shidoshi license means anything.. or is of value to anyone.
But I will keep mine put away if things change.

r.severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> Hey Jeff, I have a shidoshi license but it states nothing about shidoshikai on it...
> With the current status quo.. of the Bujinkan.. I wouldn't say the shidoshi license means anything.. or is of value to anyone.
> But I will keep mine put away if things change.



Ralph,
You are helping to spread a mistaken impression. For the proper way of looking at things read the following link.

http://www.jigokudojo.com/faqs.htm#teach

Namely,



> "Who is authorized to teach?
> 
> Just because someone has been ranked in the Bujinkan organization does not give them the authority to teach. Many previous members of the Bujinkan Dojo have since gone their own way, yet many still cling to the legitimacy of the Bujinkan organization  some going so far as to retain the Bujinkan name. There are three pieces of documentation that an interested student should ask to see. First is a dan rank certificate, written in Japanese bearing the official seal of Dr. Hatsumi.
> 
> 
> 
> The second is a teaching menkyo that also bears Dr. Hatsumi's seal.
> 
> 
> 
> The third _and most critical_, is the current year's Shidoshikai instructor certification card with the instructor's name. This is a two-sided card.
> 
> 
> 
> If the teacher cannot produce these three documents, or refuses to show you them, _then they are not authorized to teach in the Bujinkan name,_  regardless of their past affiliation or skill level. This is in the same vein as the medical profession where someone undergoes schooling and earns a degree in medicine, but also has to be certified, and receive continual certification, to establish and maintain a medical practice.



As the above states, you need to be a member of the shidoshikai or you are not authorized to teach in the Bujinkan name. So people who, like you, say they do not have shidoshikai membership cards are not representative of the Bujinkan or authorized to teach in it's name. So "Dr Rod" is not authorized to teach in the Bujinkan name. And that is all there is to say about the matter.


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## Jeff Boler

I think it's a moot point now, as Rod is not using the Bujinkan name in his newsletters anymore.  He simply refers to his Ninpo training under his Okuden Society.  It's been several months since the word Bujinkan has appeared in any newsletter.

And there are other issues as well, but they are not worth speculating at this time.  I have heard rumors concerning the Juko Kai / Bujinkan Brotherhood relationship, but again, I have nothing definitive, so why discuss.

Rod has recently been featured on a website about phony veterans.

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1085.htm

I sincerely hope that Rod is willing to admit some past mistakes, and make a positive change while he is able.


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## r.severe

Well...
Yes, what a wonderful and very good web site Don..
Thanks for pointing it out to me..
But really..
The license of 'shidoshi' has nothing to do with the shidoshikai..
If you take just a few seconds and read it.. nowhere does it state anything anbout shidoshikai..
As well as myown doesn't.

I got mine in 1989..
It has been in a box from that time.. with other letters and photos from Sensei.

So?

What is written on a web site can be very misleading.
Just ponder if I did the same on my web site,
www.artofcombat.com on rules and licenses of Bujutsu ryu or the Bujinkan Dojo.
It's all just written words and opinions.
What matters is what happens on the mat.. not on paper. Right?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Cryozombie

r.severe said:
			
		

> Well...
> 
> What matters is what happens on the mat.. not on paper. Right?
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama


No sir.  That is incorrect. 

You paint.  Perhaps you should start calling your Paintings "Disney Originals" based on that opinion.

See where you wind up.

When you use an organizations name, you follow their rules.  It doesnt matter to me if someone is the master of combat or some fat hack pretending to teach fighting... if they do it under the Bujinkan Name, they need to follow the Bujinkan rules.

Why?

Because even if they are the Best and Brightest, if they LIE to me about what they teach, they arent worth learning from.

Ponder that, and the meaning of honor.


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## r.severe

No sir. That is incorrect. 


I see, but really I do not understand what you are saying is incorrect.
Please make it clear.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Cryozombie

r.severe said:
			
		

> No sir. That is incorrect.
> 
> 
> I see, but really I do not understand what you are saying is incorrect.
> Please make it clear.
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama


Ok. Plain and Simple.

IF YOU CLAIM TO TEACH BUJINKAN TAIJUTSU YOU NEED TO FOLLOW THE OGANIZATIONAL RULES OF THE BUJINKAN *INCLUDING* MAINTAINING YOUR SHIDOSHI-KAI MEMBERSHIP.  

Clear enough?


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## r.severe

When you use an organizations name, you follow their rules. It doesnt matter to me if someone is the master of combat or some fat hack pretending to teach fighting... if they do it under the Bujinkan Name, they need to follow the Bujinkan rules.
**ky, I don&#8217;t disagree with this. I cannot recall anyone disagreeing with this. I cannot see how this has anything to do with what or what not a license states. I feel maybe you have what others say it states confused with what the license states in Hatsumi sensei handwriting. At no time during the past 25 years have I seen or heard or read Hatsumi sensei given out rules sheets personally or having a student sign an agreement to be a godan or shidoshi or any other license he has given out or promoted anyone to. I know so many shidoshi personally who are not in fact any members of any group but still are licensed as a shidoshi. This goes hand in hand with the many many people who are ranked below godan who are not members. This does not exclude their ranking or skills of the ranking. It only states it excludes their giving rank in the Bujinkan Dojo under Hatsumi sensei. So.. ? I feel this is a big misunderstand. You don&#8217;t need to be part of any organization to train or to teach your skills. You don&#8217;t need any organization to run a school or give ranking in what you teach. It&#8217;s your deal.. not anyone else&#8217;s. As I stated before, yes, if you use a organization name as in Japanese Karate Fat Hackskan and are not ranked in or given permission to pass ranking in than it wouldn&#8217;t be &#8216;right&#8217; to do so. I personally do not know of anyone who does at this time who uses the name &#8216;wrongly &#8216;of any organization to in doing so. Do you?  ****

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> At no time during the past 25 years have I seen or heard or read Hatsumi sensei given out rules sheets personally or having a student sign an agreement to be a godan or shidoshi or any other license he has given out or promoted anyone to.



Just because you have never heard of certain rules, does not mean they do not exist.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you want to promote yourself as being a teacher of the Bujinkan and be listed on sites advertising local instructors, etc, then you need to be a member in good standing in the shidoshikai. When you are a member, you agree to follow the rules and standards of behavior. About the only thing that the Bujikan can do to enforce these rules is to threaten to throw you out of the shidoshikai.

And I can think of a few people who left the Bujinkan just short of being thrown out and who insist on being treated the same as members in good standing. But this thread is not about them.

Rod is not a member of the shidoshikai and according to Jeff has stopped using the name at all. Good.


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## r.severe

Yes&#8230; so so true&#8230;
With this statement you have made as well as others&#8230;  It should also be said just because they have a license or a membership to any organization doesn&#8217;t mean anything in regards to knowledge of the ryu-ha, technique ability of the ryu-ha, fighting ability with the ryu-ha, training know how in the methodology of the ryu-ha, or just plain ability to fight their way out of a wet paper bag with a knife.    

This is not to take into account they most likely have no personal experience fighting to even teach fighting skills to others.

So in the end what does a license mean and for the matter ranking?

In my opinion it is shameful to use any name to promote yourself or use someone ele's name to make money.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

r.severe said:
			
		

> In my opinion it is shameful to use any name to promote yourself or use someone ele's name to make money.


Before you say something like that you might want to take away a lot of things you've written on your homepage, as well as make it clear that you are no longer a member of the Bujinkan - because you are not.

When I was younger, my mom used to tell me that everything that looks like a bird's nest in the trees isn't always a bird's nest. It could also be some kind of a tree disease that looks like a bird's nest. Therefore, it seemed quite odd to me that a tree disease could form it's own style of martial arts, fool hundreds of people as well as getting an honorary rank from an authentic Japanese martial art master. But now I know better. My mom lied to protect me. It was Rod Sacharnoski sitting up there in those trees.

Now will someone please kill this thread, or even better, send it back to the abyss that spawned it?


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## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> With this statement you have made as well as others  It should also be said just because they have a license or a membership to any organization doesnt mean anything in regards to knowledge of the ryu-ha, technique ability of the ryu-ha, fighting ability with the ryu-ha, training know how in the methodology of the ryu-ha, or just plain ability to fight their way out of a wet paper bag with a knife.



The above seems a bit off topic. But it may indeed have some relevence to the subject at hand.

If being a member of the Bujinkan does not guarentee knowledge of the contents of the Bujinkan, then just how little can we expect from people that are not members at all? Or those who are/were, but only the bare minimum to qualify?

There is something lacking in people like Rod and other ex-members of the Bujinkan that still try to teach the techniques. It is commitment and an honest drive to perfection. If you are going to do something, _teach something,_ then the people that I respect never sit on their laurals and be satisfied with what they have achieved. They are always out there trying to gain new insights and lessons from those that know more than they. You can show up to someone like Bill Atkins every chance you get to learn from his wealth of experience. Atkins does not have many people who are suprior to him in America, so he comes to Japan as often as he can.

Atkins is good, damn good. But he still takes every chance he gets to learn from the one man whom no one else is better at the Bujinkan- Hatsumi.

I can think of a certain ex Bujinkan member who claims to be good, but really does not seem to have even a bare minimum of knowledge of the art IMO. When Hatsumi trained in his country, he would not go. He proclaimed that he was teaching more realistic stuff that Hatsumi, etc. But despite trying to post on certain sites talking about Bujinkan, etc, he never took the time to train in Japan for years. Then he failed to renew his membership after a funny little incident. I can probably find the documents posted on the internet in a short while.  Hatsumi has said that the bad teachers do not need to be tossed out because they all go away on their own. I don't think this is because of anything mystical. I think it is because the bad teachers are more interested in teaching and being known as a macho sensei than they are in taming their ego long enough to learn. So they don't train with Hatsumi or anyone else who knows better than them.

This is what I see in Rod. I do not see a great commitment to learn- only to be seen as a teacher. If he really wanted to follow what Hatsumi teaches he would start by losing some weight. I heard one Japanese teacher comment about someone, "Well, you can't expect anyone that big to have good taijutsu."

And why should we believe Rod or other people who have been caught in lies (or those that follow them) that he is knowledgeable or combat effective? Unless there is proof in the form of a police report, etc, then I am not willing to trust the word of a proven liar or those that follow him. Trust is important. And those that make strange claims like Rod and have been caught in falsehoods should not be trusted. Especially when they show patterns of behavior for doing the bare minimum to gain recognition.


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## r.severe

Before you say something like that you might want to take away a lot of things you've written on your homepage, as well as make it clear that you are no longer a member of the Bujinkan - because you are not.

Nimravus, you were referring to me on this subject. If you were then maybe you should do research first and state it like it 'really' is..
Here are the facts...
I am not a member of the shidoshikai as of the first of this year and not a member as of the first of this year.. but I am still a student of the Soke in the Bujinkan Dojo and ranked and have a shidoshi license by him as a senior student.
I just hope this is clear and is not taken out of context.
It is really easy to mislead those who don't know the facts.
Those are the facts.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley

r.severe said:
			
		

> I am not a member of the shidoshikai as of the first of this year and not a member as of the first of this year.. but I am still a student of the Soke in the Bujinkan Dojo and ranked and have a shidoshi license by him as a senior student.



Well, that is your opinion.

It is the opinion of many of us that you really need to show a continuing effort to train with a person and follow what they say to deserve the title of student.


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## Cryozombie

* Mod. Note. 
 The Questions raised in this thread Regarding the Juko-Kai and the Bujinkan have been asked and answered, and this thread is being closed.

  -Technopunk
  -MT Moderator-*


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