# Ki " Inner Engergy "?



## IFKQ80 (Jun 17, 2004)

I don't understand many things about Ki " inner energy " all I know is that it's located in the Tandan and it makes you stronger in different way's !! But I'm sure there is more into it, I hope someone can explain it to me?



I even hear people say something like you can knockout someone with your Ki without touching him/her " hmm Strange ", I saw some video clip's of Ushiba " the founder of Aikido" doing some strange things to his student's with out even touching them is that true " with respect to him of course " ? 



Need more information if anyone can help I would be more then happy?

http://p.creantor.online.fr/Aikido/OSENSE-N.MPEG


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## spatulahunter (Jun 18, 2004)

Ki,chi,qi,aiki, etc is one of the most disputed topics in the martial arts. Many artists will swear by it and some will get angry at just the mention of it. People describe it as many different things including the internal energy that keeps your body in check (yin/yang) and others will say that it is your force (you step towards someone and they redirect your force by leading you in a direction that disables your attack. Others will say that it is a magical force similiar to that in star wars.

I am a student of daito ryu aikijujutsu (the art that ueshiba was before he founded aikido) and when we refer to ki we are talking about redirecting the power or strength of the opponent and using it against them. Also i have only been a student of daitoryu since last fall so i am by no means an expert. I have much to learn about aiki as well as the art as a whole.


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## theletch1 (Jul 3, 2004)

SpatulaHunter, I'm a student of Nihon Goshin Aikido (also derived from daito-ryu aikijujutsu but not an Ueshiba off shoot) and that's more or less the take we have on ki as well.  To add to your answer I'll say that to us ki is having all things aligned with in a technique so that maximum power/energy can be "dropped" into the technique at the proper time.  It is also redirecting ukes energy in the direction that you want it to go.  Stay centralized, become the center of the forces in a technique and you are utelizing ki.


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## spatulahunter (Jul 4, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> SpatulaHunter, I'm a student of Nihon Goshin Aikido (also derived from daito-ryu aikijujutsu but not an Ueshiba off shoot) and that's more or less the take we have on ki as well.  To add to your answer I'll say that to us ki is having all things aligned with in a technique so that maximum power/energy can be "dropped" into the technique at the proper time.  It is also redirecting ukes energy in the direction that you want it to go.  Stay centralized, become the center of the forces in a technique and you are utelizing ki.




Nicely put letch, those things would also fit in our definition as well, its one of those things that is really hard to describe but once you understand it is easy to identify


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## Rick Wade (Jul 5, 2004)

I have been studing American Kenpo for 14 years and I am now doing some self studi into chi.  Do any of you have a web site books or drills I can practice to learn more?  One more question I realize that there isn't a chi art however what do in your experiences talk about chi the most?

Respectfully 
Rick


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## hedgehogey (Jul 5, 2004)

Nothing wrong with qigong, but it's impossible to knock someone out with your qi. Anyone who claims the ability to knock someone out barehanded without touching them is feeding you straight BS.


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## shesulsa (Jul 5, 2004)

Hedgehogey - I'd like for you to meet my teacher...hehehehehe.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 5, 2004)

Does he claim he can knock  people out without touching them?


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Hedgehogey - I'd like for you to meet my teacher...hehehehehe.



Does your teacher allege that he can KO someone without making physical contact (and I'm not talking about my infantry buddies' smart aleck comment about how *they* won't touch you, but their 5.56mm round *will*)?

If so, since we are in the same neck of the woods, I'd love to see how that works...  I don't believe it can be done, but I'm always willing to let someone try.


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## shesulsa (Jul 5, 2004)

I have never heard him claim to have the ability to knock someone out with his ki energy.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I have never heard him claim to have the ability to knock someone out with his ki energy.



Then why did you want Hedgehogey to meet your teacher?  It seemed that, by the flow of the thread, that his meeting your teacher would change his mind about his opinions somehow...


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## shesulsa (Jul 6, 2004)

My teacher has great abilities with Ki and I know some of the things he can do - and they're quite incredible.  I have met people who have such strong energy about them that I feel nauseated.  Once I figured it out, I now can block a lot of that kind of energy.

 I think once a person witnesses the abilities one can achieve with ki, they will truly never forget it.


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 6, 2004)

I think if you believe someone has the power to make you nauseous, they will make you nauseous.  If you believe they can knock you out without touching you, they can knock you out without touching you.  It's in YOUR mind, not theirs.  IMHO


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## hedgehogey (Jul 6, 2004)

So what exactly does your teacher claim to be able to DO, shesulsa?


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## Matt Stone (Jul 6, 2004)

muaythaifreak said:
			
		

> I think if you believe someone has the power to make you nauseous, they will make you nauseous.  If you believe they can knock you out without touching you, they can knock you out without touching you.  It's in YOUR mind, not theirs.  IMHO



There is a prominent exponent of such qigong spawned abilities that put on a seminar hosted by a former member of our organization.  There were people from all three sides of the fence - those who believed, those who weren't sure one way or another, and those who didn't believe.

During the seminar, some of our seniors (who didn't believe the claims of the instructor) observed that those who believed experienced amazing effects.  Those who didn't believe one way or another had mixed results.  Those who didn't believe at all experienced nothing more than a person gesturing toward them.

I am always reminded of the Shakespeare quote "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."  I try to keep this in mind and turn an objective eye to claims of the supernatural...  Sometimes its crap, sometimes it is a little harder to explain...


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## Scout_379 (Jul 7, 2004)

I also don't know much about ki, only what I have heard. But it does make you stronger and more focused, if you can feel it and sense it. Ki, or Chi, is supposedly present in all things, living and non-living. In people, it is (usually) centered in the tanden, but it flows throughout our bodies like a metaphysical circulatory system. You are supposed to be able to develop and strengthen your ki and awareness of ki through meditation and breathing excercises. Practice in the MA's also help to develop this sense, especially through tai-chi and aikido.   This is from a Karate point of view, but Aikido is a large part of my particular styles curriculum.

I beleive that it is possible to perform many feats through the proper manipulation of ki, but it takes very much time and effort. I'm talking about long days of meditaion and practice over many years!! And to be able to knock out or kill a person through the use of ki alone would take a lifetime, but nobody has that kind of time anymore. Those who do practice such  disciplines are becoming fewer and their knowledge lost.  But I wonder, why would the masters of old have devoted their lives to this concept if they had at not least made some progress.

I'm sure the founder of Aikido had developed his ki to the point where he could throw a person with the flick of his wrist. But he did touch them, feel out their ki, find where it was weakest, and threw accordingly.


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## IFKQ80 (Jul 11, 2004)

Thank you for your answer Scout_379.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 11, 2004)

Throw a person with a flick of the wrist?! I try to keep an open mind, but that's just ridiculous.


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 11, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Throw a person with a flick of the wrist?! I try to keep an open mind, but that's just ridiculous.


I agree 100%.


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## Scout_379 (Jul 13, 2004)

Come on u guys! Beleive me! I've seen a man do it! A very advanced Karate/Aikido Sensei, dodged the punch, pushed the puncher's hand (flick of wrist!), and sent him at least 2 meters.  

And there have been several documented cases of many, many other people performing other such feats (eg. video of boards breaking b4 actual contact, or old men single handedly disposing of multiple attackers). In fact, there have even been many scientific reports on activities performed by monks through the manipulation of ki. Take this for example:
A group of monks entered a freezing pool, any normal person would have frozen and suffered hypothermia in a matter of minutes, but in their case, steam was reported to have been given off the surrounding water. Through deep meditation excercises they were able to raise their body tempurature to cope. Read from Ripleys of all places lol.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you cannot deny hard evidence and put down others just because you believe the idea is preposterous.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 13, 2004)

Many things are possible with biofeedback, stringent hardening of the body and other things that monks do. 

What is NOT possible is hitting someone without touching them.There is no scientific evidence for such a thing. 

Of course, if you disagree there's a million dollars you can get from the randi challenge.


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 13, 2004)

could you please cite your sources for these "scientific facts"? Have you ever heard of the "polar bears"? These people regularly swim in sub zero waters and temperatures. And amazingly enough, none of them to my knowledge, certainly not all of them practice "ki".  It's a matter of acclimatization, not mysticism.


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 13, 2004)

Scout_379 said:
			
		

> Come on u guys! Beleive me! I've seen a man do it! A very advanced Karate/Aikido Sensei, dodged the punch, pushed the puncher's hand (flick of wrist!), and sent him at least 2 meters.


This has to do with Inertia and the redirection of energy.


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 13, 2004)

Scout_379 said:
			
		

> (eg. video of boards breaking b4 actual contact, or old men single handedly disposing of multiple attackers).


Anything can be made to happen through the wonders of video and special effects.
How many attackers have we seen Jackie Chan dispatch at once?  ON VIDEO.
I suppose you think he could do it in real life?


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## Scout_379 (Jul 13, 2004)

You hate the idea of ki don't u? In another thread i mention the difference between hard and soft arts. Muay thai happens to be a hard art, and ki is never mentioned. Most martial arts practiced in North America and Europe do likewise. I am sure your training partners would agree that there is no such thing as ki, that it's just some mystical concept that people have been practicing for well over 1000 yrs. 
But in my style and others it is mentioned frequently, and with emphasis, we do not beleive that it there is anything mystical about it. Call it inertia or w/e u want, but it works. Many of my styles highest ranking Sensei's hold PhD's in the medical feilds, and in engineering. Lets say that they kno their bulls***, but still kno that ki exists.

As for my evidence: I'm no idiot, I know about the effects possible in the editing room. I've seen the board break - I am aware that it could have been faked.
The old men taking down youthful gangmembers - from newspapers and one TV report, i've forgotten the papers but i loved the stories.
Monk polar bears? - Ripleys beleive it or not - one of the books relating to human feats. Yes acclimatization is possible, but not to the point where a person could endure extended periods without suffering the effects. Otherwise the eskimos would be havin a much nicer time.
The man i saw throw a senior student 2 meters by the wrist flick DOES practice ki, inertia was mostly responsible, but it was by using ki that he found the other mans weakness. In the practice of Tai-chi push hands this is even more evident. Although Tai-chi pratitioners are more concerned with creating balace and harmony in their personal chi.


Yes I beleive that Jackie Chan could take on several attackers at once. He is a VERY skilled martial artist. I've seen some of his non-english movies. And S*** he is fast lol.


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## Shogun (Jul 13, 2004)

Let me throw my two cents in:

If one chooses not to recognize Ki/chi/qi than that is their choice. If someone decides to recognize it,...great. more power to them. It all boils down to whether or not someone "believes in it". like Santa claus or God. (yes, I put them in the same category) One should not try and MAKE someone believe in it. I personally believe that in order to understand the higher concepts of Aiki or even japanese culture, it is NECESSARY to understand Ki. just my Opinion.


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## Scout_379 (Jul 13, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> If one chooses not to recognize Ki/chi/qi than that is their choice. If someone decides to recognize it,...great. more power to them. It all boils down to whether or not someone "believes in it". like Santa claus or God. (yes, I put them in the same category) One should not try and MAKE someone believe in it.


Now thats wisdom


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## Matt Stone (Jul 13, 2004)

Scout_379 said:
			
		

> Come on u guys! Beleive me! I've seen a man do it! A very advanced Karate/Aikido Sensei, dodged the punch, pushed the puncher's hand (flick of wrist!), and sent him at least 2 meters.



Two things...

1) The teacher in question made physical contact;

2) 2 meters isn't that far to go when you fall as a result of your own imbalance (played upon by someone who knows where and when to push you in order to capitalize on your momentum). 



> And there have been several documented cases of many, many other people performing other such feats (eg. video of boards breaking b4 actual contact, or old men single handedly disposing of multiple attackers). In fact, there have even been many scientific reports on activities performed by monks through the manipulation of ki. Take this for example:
> A group of monks entered a freezing pool, any normal person would have frozen and suffered hypothermia in a matter of minutes, but in their case, steam was reported to have been given off the surrounding water. Through deep meditation excercises they were able to raise their body tempurature to cope. Read from Ripleys of all places lol.



I believe in qigong, I practice qigong, I believe I have witnessed some remarkable things attributed to qigong practice.  However, in order to affect a physical body, you must make contact with said physical body.  Jedi tricks don't exist any more than the tooth fairy, and when I cite "scientific proof" Ripley's Believe it or Not isn't exactly the factual reference I'd prefer...

Please list specifics regarding the amazing scientific proof you have of these no touch abilities you have knowledge of...  George Dillman doesn't count, nor do any of his students, as their NTKO skills have failed every single time they've been tried on "unbelievers."



> You are entitled to your opinion. But you cannot deny hard evidence and put down others just because you believe the idea is preposterous.



When you provide "hard evidence," then I suspect people will believe.  You have yet to do that, however...



> But in my style and others it is mentioned frequently, and with emphasis, we do not beleive that it there is anything mystical about it.



Please describe your qigong training.



> Call it inertia or w/e u want, but it works.



Well, if it is inertia, then it isn't qi is it?  It's inertia.  Pick one, please.



> As for my evidence: I'm no idiot, I know about the effects possible in the editing room. I've seen the board break - I am aware that it could have been faked.



Then citing such potentially questionable events as "scientific proof" isn't something you should do...  It makes you look stupid, even more so when you admit that the event in question, the event you are offering as "proof," could have, and likely was, faked.



> The man i saw throw a senior student 2 meters by the wrist flick DOES practice ki, inertia was mostly responsible, but it was by using ki that he found the other mans weakness.



So it was inertia and not qi?  Which one, please.  And it wasn't qi that "found" the other man's weakness, but that person's skill and experience that allowed him to "find" his "weakness."



> In the practice of Tai-chi push hands this is even more evident. Although Tai-chi pratitioners are more concerned with creating balace and harmony in their personal chi.



The practice of push hands is not what you think it is.  It is a sensitivity drill that has far more to do with learning to relax in order to follow your opponent's movement without jerky movements than it does with "creating balance in your personal qi."

Do you practice Taijiquan, by any chance?


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 13, 2004)

FYI, Jackie Chan's fight scenes are VERY HIGHLY coreographed and sometimes take several days to shoot a single five or ten min sequence.  He could no more execute the moves in his movies in a real life situation than I could.  Granted, he is a very talented martial artist.  I do not deny this and I have the utmost respect for his abilities.  However, no one, including Jackie Chan himself could execute those kinds of moves with that kind of continuous accuracy in a life or death situation.  It is physically impossible.  

If you are saying that "ki" is simply the understanding of the laws of nature and how to manipulate them to your advantage, then I agree with you.  It is possible to do this.  But people cannot throw, strike, or kill with out touching their opponent in some manner.  Boards cannot be broken without physical contact of some sort.  (Except in movies or video's.)  And yes, acclimatization can allow someone to endure extended periods of adverse temperatures.  As is proven by the people who swim the English Channel.  The average person would die of hypothermia in less than ten or fifteen minutes in those waters.  As yet, I'm fairly certain that no one has swam it in less than that.


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## Scout_379 (Jul 13, 2004)

whoa..too many questions... 


to be honest, i just logged in for the pupose of apologizing. I am 16 years old, and I realize that I can be moody and ignorant. And that my claims are questionable. For this I am sorry. My "hard evidence" was indeed hard to believe. You had every right to post back in that respect. I should not have tried so hard or made my stories anymore than they really were. just stories.

I got a little obsessed in defending myself against muaythaifreak and hedgehogey (srry guys), just for the purpose of feeling like a big shot. I have a LOT to learn. But I have never said it was possible to throw without contact.


But I beleive in the practice of ki, and I would like to thank you Mr. Stone for teaching me the finer points of argueing online. 2 metres is not far i kno. and i did not say he didn't touch the other guy.

For the record I was referring to taoist tai-chi which is invoved in personal balance and alignment/harmony, to promote good health. 

FYI muaythaifreak, Jackie Chan has done this, in an interview I once read, (in a friends maxim magazine if u really insist on a source), he and a friend accidentally pissed off some (supposedly Triad) gang members by knocking over their bikes. 6 guys agaist 2, Jackie Chan is still here today. but im not some harcore fan who beleives that Mr. Chan is the supreme fighter. Others can do it too. It is not "physically impossible"


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 14, 2004)

Your absolutely right, two on six is very possible.  One on ten however is a different bowl of soup.  In most of Chan's movies, he's up against anywhere from  four to fifteen attackers, maybe even more.  And I doubt very much if he was jumping through ladders and using armchairs as projectiles in the fight you are talking about.  I did not say that beating multiple attackers is impossible.  I said the moves he uses are impossible to do in a real fight.  Not all, but many. 

As for the rest of your last post, don't worry about any of it.  That's what the forums are for, to learn and make friends.  A little friendly debate never hurt anyone and I enjoy them.

This thread is beginning to go off track, let's get back to "ki".


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## Scout_379 (Jul 14, 2004)

thx for your forgiveness

As for a friendly debate...

U wanna start a thread on multiple attackers?


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 14, 2004)

I'm game for a thread on just about anything.


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## Shogun (Jul 15, 2004)

> Well, if it is inertia, then it isn't qi is it? It's inertia. Pick one, please


Not to be rude, but Ki is a Japanese word (energy, life force, etc) and very well might have the same concept. The Idea of inertia is a western term. Ki is Japanese. they are one in the same, without being the same. was that confusing? probably. I do that a lot.


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## muaythaifreak (Jul 15, 2004)

Inertia does not mean "life force", or "energy".  And I'm fairly certain that the law of inertia is pretty much accepted everywhere, not just in the west.


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## Shogun (Jul 15, 2004)

No. it doesnt. but that is exactly what I meant. They are different, but the (older) concepts of Ki (japanese) were similar to what the western world thinks/thought of, Inertia. obviously inertia isnt Ki. but flip that around, and that might be the answer. is Ki inertia? anyway, I stand by my first post.



> If one chooses not to recognize Ki/chi/qi than that is their choice. If someone decides to recognize it,...great. more power to them. It all boils down to whether or not someone "believes in it". like Santa claus or God. (yes, I put them in the same category) One should not try and MAKE someone believe in it. I personally believe that in order to understand the higher concepts of Aiki or even japanese culture, it is NECESSARY to understand Ki. just my Opinion.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 15, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Not to be rude, but Ki is a Japanese word (energy, life force, etc) and very well might have the same concept.



I speak Japanese (a little, anyway), and used to speak a smattering of Chinese.  In Chinese, inertia is _*duo2xing2*_, while _*qi2*_ means air, manner or spirit...  Nowhere near the same word, but thanks for playing...   



> The Idea of inertia is a western term. Ki is Japanese. they are one in the same, without being the same.



So you imply that the Japanese and Chinese are/were unable to comprehend the idea of "a property of matter by which it remains at rest or in uniform motion in the same straight line unless acted upon by some external force?"  That's terribly arrogant, isn't it?  Especially given that the Chinese culture alone has over 5000 years of continuous recorded history? 

This is a problem that I have soapboxed about on MT before...  Monolingual Anglophones attempting to make use of foreign language terms without possessing a real understanding of a) the word's real meaning, b) the cultural context of the word, or c) the relevance the word has to the use the aforementioned Anglophone is attempting to assign it.

In Japanese and Chinese both, ki or qi is used as a suffix lending a quality to the word...  For example, _*tien1qi2*_ is "heaven spirit/energy," or more properly "weather."  In a way it is almost like referring to "-ness" in English...  "-ness" is a suffix referring to a characteristic that something possesses, but you don't know what kind of "-ness" until you throw something in front of it!

But Scout was trying to state that the teacher he viewed accomplished his feats through the use of qi, but later said that it was inertia that accomplished the act.  I asked him to choose which one it was, that's all...


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## Scout_379 (Jul 15, 2004)

I did not say it was inertia, but in my arrogance I made some very strange comments that I am quite embarrased of now.


What I meant to type was that it could have been a combination of the two, that the man's practice in ki could have given him a little extra inuitionary feeling towards the manipulation of the students momentum/inertia. We could all be wrong, There are very many differing opinions as to the actual nature of ki.  But why are we argueing about the literal meaning? My sensei is Japanese and speaks the language fluently, and he uses the term "ki" in much the same way I have seen it used here, by everybody.


			
				Matt Stone said:
			
		

> In Japanese and Chinese both, ki or qi is used as a suffix lending a quality to the word... For example, _*tien1qi2*_ is "heaven spirit/energy," or more properly "weather."


Also used as a prefix, for example: *ki*me


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## Matt Stone (Jul 15, 2004)

Scout_379 said:
			
		

> Also used as a prefix, for example: *ki*me



Nice try, but no...  Just because the transliteration (taking a foreign word and representing it with English letters in an attempt to adequately reflect the sound of the foreign word) uses the letters "k" and "i" doesn't mean that the *character* that is the real word in Japanese is the same...  It is simply a homophone (lit. "same sound") and nothing more...


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## Scout_379 (Jul 16, 2004)

I also speak a bit of Japanese. I am taking my 4th year in about a month. I was using romaji, the standard system for writing out the Japanese syllables in the english alphabet (ie:tienqi would actually be tenki). In _kime_, *ki*, both letters representing the one hiragana character,all on its own represents the same *ki* that we have been discussing here. I have not learned a lot of kanji however.  But in the word of kime, I beleive it is the same. Although i could be wrong...


_*ki*me_ is a karate term for the final focus and moment of tension at the end of the technique.  <--simplified description, but I'm too tired to write a paragraph.


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## Shogun (Jul 16, 2004)

> also speak a bit of Japanese. I am taking my 4th year in about a month. I was using romaji, the standard system for writing out the Japanese syllables in the english alphabet (ie:tienqi would actually be tenki). In _kime_, *ki*, both letters representing the one hiragana character,all on its own represents the same *ki* that we have been discussing here. I have not learned a lot of kanji however. But in the word of kime, I beleive it is the same. Although i could be wrong...
> 
> 
> _*ki*me_ is a karate term for the final focus and moment of tension at the end of the technique. <--simplified description, but I'm too tired to write a paragraph.


Yes. The Japanese language is made up of syllables. each set of two or three letters (usually) represents a character. Also, vowels make up characters.





> So you imply that the Japanese and Chinese are/were unable to comprehend the idea of "a property of matter by which it remains at rest or in uniform motion in the same straight line unless acted upon by some external force?" That's terribly arrogant, isn't it? Especially given that the Chinese culture alone has over 5000 years of continuous recorded history?
> 
> This is a problem that I have soapboxed about on MT before... Monolingual Anglophones attempting to make use of foreign language terms without possessing a real understanding of a) the word's real meaning, b) the cultural context of the word, or c) the relevance the word has to the use the aforementioned Anglophone is attempting to assign it.


You misunderstood me. and the ignorant part is assuming I am monolingual. I speak some japanese, brazillian portuguese, and Koyukon. The Japanese word for inertia is Daryoku. it means spur of the moment/inertia. What I meant by Ki and inertia being one in the same, without being the same is that while inertia and Ki are different, they are words that work on two separate levels while having a common bond. Inertia, as muaythaifreak mentioned, is accepted everwhere due to its scientific nature. Ki is an Asian term, that is usually only accepted in asia, and in certain people in the west, due to its more religious nature. in truth, they really shouldnt be used in the same context, becasue although, IMO, they are related, they are NOT the same (as I posted) because of the separation of science and religion. Ki is life force. but it can be USED as inertia. limiting Ki's potential to simply internal energy is also ignorant. I may not know much about inertia, but I know about Ki. the question is, how can you claim to know about something while refusing its existence?


cheers,
Kyle Elliott


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## Matt Stone (Jul 16, 2004)

Scout_379 said:
			
		

> I also speak a bit of Japanese. I am taking my 4th year in about a month. I was using romaji, the standard system for writing out the Japanese syllables in the english alphabet (ie:tienqi would actually be tenki). In _kime_, *ki*, both letters representing the one hiragana character,all on its own represents the same *ki* that we have been discussing here. I have not learned a lot of kanji however.  But in the word of kime, I beleive it is the same. Although i could be wrong...
> 
> 
> _*ki*me_ is a karate term for the final focus and moment of tension at the end of the technique.  <--simplified description, but I'm too tired to write a paragraph.



Yep, you're wrong...

The _ki_ you reference when talking about energy isn't written with hiragana nor katakana, but with kanji.  It is different from the _ki_ in _kime_.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> Inertia, as muaythaifreak mentioned, is accepted everwhere due to its scientific nature. Ki is an Asian term, that is usually only accepted in asia, and in certain people in the west, due to its more religious nature.



Have you ever _lived_ in Asia, specifically Japan (since we are talking about a Japanese word/concept)?

"Inertia" isn't used in Japan, except among English speakers.  So your comment that it is "accepted everywhere" is erroneous at very best.  Your monolingualism fails to impress when you make comments like this...

As to the word's more "religious" nature, you couldn't be further from the truth (but if you speak as much Japanese as you allege, then you should know that already, right?).  Most folks have no idea whatsoever what the word means, much less in relation to martial arts practice (which is seen by many Japanese as an anachronistic eccentricity).



> in truth, they really shouldnt be used in the same context, becasue although, IMO, they are related, they are NOT the same (as I posted) because of the separation of science and religion.



Please show me where the term "ki" is found in widespread use as a religious term.



> Ki is life force. but it can be USED as inertia.



No.  Life force is life force.  Inertia is inertia.  Your comment is a logical fallacy.  "Rose is rose, but can be used as daisy."  Incorrect from the get go.



> limiting Ki's potential to simply internal energy is also ignorant. I may not know much about inertia, but I know about Ki.



Apparently not, but you can keep telling yourself you do.



> the question is, how can you claim to know about something while refusing its existence?



When did I refuse its existence?  Please quote where I did that...


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## Shogun (Jul 16, 2004)

> When did I refuse its existence? Please quote where I did that...


You did'nt, others did. I didnt mean YOU.



> Please show me where the term "ki" is found in widespread use as a religious term.


I am not sure, but I think I put religious in quotes. thats because, as such, it is LIKE religion, in that one can choose not to accept it because there is no hard evidence. But on the subject of religous _terms, _My Sensei, a SHINTO PRIEST, uses it often.



> "Inertia" isn't used in Japan, except among English speakers


So what your saying, is that no Japanese use Inertia as a word (Daryoku) ? Most dont, but you said its NOT USED......?

what about when I said its not used in Japan, andyou said:



> So you imply that the Japanese and Chinese are/were unable to comprehend the idea of "a property of matter by which it remains at rest or in uniform motion in the same straight line unless acted upon by some external force?" That's terribly arrogant, isn't it? Especially given that the Chinese culture alone has over 5000 years of continuous recorded history?


hhhhhmmmmmm..............



> No. Life force is life force. Inertia is inertia. Your comment is a logical fallacy. "Rose is rose, but can be used as daisy." Incorrect from the get go.


not quite. to understand Ki, one must accept it is the energy that is flowing thru their body. Inertia requires energy, which _can_ be gerated from the body. one should not think these as two separate things. It is more like a flash light and a battery. the flashlight receives power from the battery, but they are diiferent things.





> Apparently not, but you can keep telling yourself you do.


Ok. thanks for the permission. I wasnt going to if you said I couldnt. 




> monolingualism


Even if you refuse to accept I speak a little Japanese, I still know I can (and a little Brasil portuguese, and  some Koyukon)

cheers,
Kyle Elliott


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## DeLamar.J (Aug 1, 2004)

Just what exactly is energy? Let's consider the word energy in terms of how it's used in the martial arts. There are two camps: the mystical and the physical. 

It should come as no surprise that there are proclaimed masters of the martial arts who claim to channel energy into different parts of their bodies, to use it at different times for different purposes. That sounds very impressive and magical, and sets them on a much higher level than their students. Of course, they never define this energy, except by calling it by the nebulous and equally vague phrase: life force. But what is that? They tell us that science has yet to understand this force. Yet in this day and age when we have mapped the human genome, unraveled the mystery of DNA, can clone mammals, and have plotted out all the various parts of the brain and understand their functions, it seems like a weak argument to say that scientists cannot find this powerful and all-pervasive life force a force that uneducated peasants have known about for thousands of years. Ki (or chi) has all the appearance of folklore and legend.

I shall tell you exactly what energy is. Energy is physical force... pressure... generated by muscular exertion or the momentum of movement both mechanical actions. No martial art technique happens without movement of some kind. Take away the movement, and you take away the technique. Effective energy is generated by good body mechanics, understanding of timing and footwork, and good muscle control.

Knowing now what energy is, I have a question for you to ponder. Can energy be stored?

If we think of energy like electricity, and the body like a battery... then no, energy cannot be stored. It cant be built up in your stomach, and then shot out through your arm into your enemy, knocking him on the ground. Such is the stuff of comic book heroes and bad martial arts movies. And yet there are martial arts that would have you believe this is what they can do. In the twenty years I've been involved in martial arts, I have never witnessed or felt anything that leads me to believe that there is any truth behind that point of view. 

There are those who promote the idea that chi or ki can be used to stop or absorb strikes. But these are tricks, similar to those used by circus side show performers, that anyone can learn. 

But if we think of energy as force, generated through physical actions, this gives us another, more realistic concept. Like a spring in a mouse trap, energy can be stored or at least built up. When you pull back the spring on a mouse trap, and set the lever, you are building up and storing potential energy, which is released later when a mouse tries to eat the cheese. The trap is tripped, and the spring releases the energy that it had been storing, breaking the mouses neck.

The bodys structure can be used this way, and that is an area of serious advanced study. The spine can be twisted, the knees bent, the weight shifted, all in ways that build up energy that is not used in that moment, but used in the next. This knowledge is vital, and should be studied after the basics are understood.

Most of all, what is important is clarity of thought in these kinds of matters. If you dont clearly understand these ideas, or if you have been deceived by someone who sounds very convincing and is trying to sell you on the idea of magic powers, then it is much harder to master these concepts.


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## Scout_379 (Aug 1, 2004)

why are there so many of this thread?  

my other reply:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=256173#post256173


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## bignick (Aug 14, 2004)

First off...throwing someone with a "flick of the wrist" is entirely possible...but sometimes we misinterpret what is going on...it sounds a lot like your instructor recieved the punch and applied kote gaeshi to the attacker...and the attacker took an airfall...the thing people sometimes forget is that ukemi(falling) is the escape from the technique...if you did that same technique on someone who didn't know how to fall you'd get a different result...most likely you'd end up breaking their wrist and they'd stumble to the ground...maybe not as graceful or eye-catching....but a lot more effective...

I think that there are two ways to think about "ki"...the first...as the mystical life force/energy that is present in all of us and can be used and channeled to accomplish amazing feats...

the second...very simply, ki can mean the most efficient way of doing things..."maximum efficiency, minimum effort" to use some judo philosophy...

i tend to subscribe to the latter...my judo/jujitsu instructor has a master's in education and teaches anatomy and physiology...and i've seen him do some amazing things with "ki"...escaping from kote gaeshi by simply straightening his arm...i've made a spearhand and placed it on his throat and he's pushed me across the dojo...mystical feats?...or just a great understanding of the human body and how it works and how to most efficiently use it....

doesn't really matter what you believe...the effect is the same...however you want to get there is up to you...


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## TomakaStud (Aug 17, 2004)

I am study Hwarangdo, a Korean Martial Art, and i have had experiences with Ki as well as whitnessed Ki demonstrations. By my own testimony it is very real and takes many years of practice to master. Ki can do 4 things:

1. Make you Faster
2. Make you Lighter
3. Make your body Hard
4. Make you Stronger
(sounds like a good engergy drink commercial!)

However for a true demonstration (which is something i think people here are lacking and why they cannot believe) visit: http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm

I recomend Ki Power demonstration in 60's, which didn't have editing, That's Incredible, and Unknown Powers.


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## muaythaifreak (Aug 18, 2004)

I don't see what's so proof positive about those clips. People do the same stuff on Ripley's believe it or not all the time that don't even study martial arts. They are talented individuals, nothing more. I didn't see anyone breaking boards with their minds.

You know what else can have those four effects?  Exercise, practice, and diet.


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## bignick (Aug 19, 2004)

yes...i agree...i saw nothing mystical in these videos either...you see these kind of feats performed by strongmen and other types all the time...not that their not impressive(i couldn't do most of them...) but that doesn't mean that they're feats of Ki energy


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## LIONHEART (Oct 22, 2004)

Hey all firstly just as an aside I dont recall anybody saying ki allowed you to break boards, people, buldings or mountains etc any other ludacris statement without even touching a person. we need to look at ki for what it is bioelectrical energy focused through a point, yes its physical not spiritual and yes it can be generated and increased here are some examples of what I mean in differen MA's where I dont need scientific proof to believe in it because I am the on it was done to or was the one doing it,

As a TKD, ex MT, Kung Fu and Capoeira practitioner, my sifu asked as part of a tai chi workshop if I would deliver him a side peircing/side thrust whichever you wanna call it full strength to his solar plexus, so I proceded to kick him which in response I got Ï said kick me so dont play around and kick me "so I followed through full ball skipping into it and all full power kicked him and bounced swiftly off and to the floor...he didnt flinch and continued speaking to the room throughout the whole thing. to see how this works, kick a wall see result now picture sifu as wall said result was the same, now I'm sorry but if this is a mere "trick"any one can just learn, please tell me where...

the other night in a TKD class we were doing energy awareness training where you build your energy close your eyes and your partner hits you, you block these hits by feeling displacement in the energy around you, I bloked 5 out of 6, again how without a feel of electric "ïnner energy"?

Try meditating or doing tai chi the pins and needles feeling in your hands when they go REALLY hot and when you center your energy into a ball in your hands and cannot close them (YES this has happened to me personally sceptics) and then say ki energy of some form does not exist, and YES I agree its body mechanics that creates stores and charges this energy and nothing meta physical.
Just my opinion Ki does exist I just feel peoples perception of it is a bit off just my opinion.

Yours in MA LIONHEART


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## An Eternal Student (Nov 18, 2004)

This is always a messy topic.I train in a couple of different styles and Ive seen and talked to people with both opinions on this.In my case I use Ki.I dont know if it can affect something I have no physical contact with, but I wouldnt be suprised.I just use it when Im fighting and training, and it gets far greater results than using the pyshical movement alone.I guess its up to you to work out your own ideas on it.

Oh and Scout_379, Im young myself so I know what its like.You argued fairly well, and you have some intersting ideas.But when your dealing with sceptics, theyres nothing you can do to change their minds.
I wouldnt mind chatting to you about this stuff, some more.


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## Adept (Nov 19, 2004)

LIONHEART said:
			
		

> Just my opinion Ki does exist I just feel peoples perception of it is a bit off just my opinion.
> 
> Yours in MA LIONHEART


 Anecdotal evidence is extremely weak. If Ki can be verified through independant and unbiased scientific means then I may grant it some credit. Until then, no dice.


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