# dangers of the choke?



## bradlee

Hi I'm more of a karate guy but , i have learned many chokes.
The judo and jujutsu guys are the masters of the choke.
I love the choke i think its a peaceful way of ending a violet situation. 
I know you have a air choke and a blood choke and i have learned that
The air choke is more dangerous then then blood choke.
What are some peoples insight on on the dangers?


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## myusername

My chief instructor distinguishes what you refer to the blood choke and air choke as a Strangle (blood choke) and a Choke (air choke). I wouldn't say that either are a peaceful way of ending a conflict for real as they will result in a great deal of struggle (from the person being choked/strangled perspective they will be fighting for their life.) A strangle would probably be quicker as it results in a sudden drop in blood pressure and the person passing out. However, I can imagine the Choke being quite a dreadful thing to witness. Have you ever seen anyone having an asthma attack and gasping for air? I'm not saying I wouldn't use them if I needed in a self defence situation but I would never consider them peaceful. Also, make sure you know your recovery position and have resuscitation skills.

As for dangers. I have been told that holding on a strangle for 3 minutes or longer can result in brain death. I have also been informed that if a trachea is collapsed there will be no recovery.

I like to include a relevant article from my chief instructor Kevin O'Hagan when I can which will go into what I have just written in more depth.....http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Articles_Self_lightsout.htm


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## bradlee

i think i mean peaceful as compared to pounding his head though the pavement thanks for the insight


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## jks9199

I would disagree with the relative dangers of blood versus air chokes.  A blood choke will take the person out very quickly, and if you keep it on very much longer than the time it takes to pass out, the person's suffering brain damage.  An air choke, assuming you don't actually do severe damage to the trachea, takes much longer, and doesn't immediately deprive the brain of oxygen.  Note that there are variants of the blood chokes/sleeper holds, also known as Lateral Vascular Restraint or Carotid Restraints, that are actually taught and endorsed by some law enforcement agencies.


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## seasoned

jks9199 said:


> I would disagree with the relative dangers of blood versus air chokes. A blood choke will take the person out very quickly, and if you keep it on very much longer than the time it takes to pass out, the person's suffering brain damage. An air choke, assuming you don't actually do severe damage to the trachea, takes much longer, and doesn't immediately deprive the brain of oxygen. Note that there are variants of the blood chokes/sleeper holds, also known as Lateral Vascular Restraint or Carotid Restraints, that are actually taught and endorsed by some law enforcement agencies.


 
10 to 12 seconds if you hit the right spot. I took a willing   
Volunteer from my karate class years ago to demonstrate a blood choke on. Coming under his extended right arm, I placed my right shoulder into his right arm pit and put my right forearm along the lift side of his neck, palm down. With my lift forearm against his back I clasped my hands together. Because he was very big I held on very tight while I explained the technique. Because I was not expecting it, and to my astonishment, when I let go, he dropped like a lead balloon. By the time he hit the deck he came to, but needed to be helped to his feet. The class and I got a good idea how the blood choke worked. The volunteer of course didnt know what hit him, or squeezed him that is.


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## SA_BJJ

seasoned said:


> 10 to 12 seconds if you hit the right spot. I took a willing
> Volunteer from my karate class years ago to demonstrate a blood choke on. Coming under his extended right arm, I placed my right shoulder into his right arm pit and put my right forearm along the lift side of his neck, palm down. With my lift forearm against his back I clasped my hands together. Because he was very big I held on very tight while I explained the technique. Because I was not expecting it, and to my astonishment, when I let go, he dropped like a lead balloon. By the time he hit the deck he came to, but needed to be helped to his feet. The class and I got a good idea how the blood choke worked. The volunteer of course didnt know what hit him, or squeezed him that is.


Its not smart to want to get choked unconscious.


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## jarrod

saw a study several years ago where a guy had volunteered to be choked out repeatedly & have his brain function studied.  short version was that so long as you don't crush the caratoid or hold the choke well after they are out, they're fine.

jf


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## matt.m

In a self defense situation use a blood choke, not a trachea choke.  Blood chokes are immensely effective for "Helping" aggressive attackers settle down so to speak.

There are so many ways to perform these techniques.  Unless you are being attacked and are certain you are in imminent danger performing a trachea choke will more times than not make you look like the aggressor.  Blood choke = put them out and they revive slowly.......a trachea choke = you have to more likely than not give them a tracheaoctmy on the spot.  It only takes a few pounds of pressure to cave in a wind pipe.


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## Drac

jks9199 said:


> Note that there are variants of the blood chokes/sleeper holds, also known as Lateral Vascular Restraint or Carotid Restraints, that are actually taught and endorsed by some law enforcement agencies.


 
Yep..We were taught the LVR by a Judo Master while in school for our instructor certifications, and everyone had it done on them...


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## punisher73

Chokes are great for getting charged with attempted murder.  Seriously, before you decide to use one check with your local prosecutor and state laws to see how they define it's use.

In Michigan and many other states, LEO's can ONLY use the LVR in a deadly force situation.  Remember in the legal sense, it is what the "victim" believes you intended.  That is why if you rob a bank with a fake gun it is the same charge as if you used a real one.  The victim believed s/he was being threatened with death.  This can quickly turn your situation against you in a court of law.

I agree that it can be a quick and easy way to end it. But, to claim self-defense you can only use EQUAL force to protect yourself.


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## jarrod

i know this is an older thread, but i came across those articles i mentioned.  of course, this doesn't say that choking is legal & punisher73's advice should be heeded.

jf

http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm


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## Carter86

i got choked by my instructor during the class time. he used blood choke method first and i 'blacked out' within 4-5 seconds. then he did throat choke to stop me from breathing and it took about 8-10 secs for me to tap out. i think blood choke is more dangerous because a person can pass out faster although throat choke was more painful.


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## MarkBarlow

SA_BJJ said:


> Its not smart to want to get choked unconscious.



Depends on the situation and who is doing the choking.  I've been choked out at least 20 times over the past 30+ years and I'm no more addled than when I started.  I think it's important for students to be choked out so they can understand what uke/opponent is experiencing.  We require all students to be choked out before they can use chokes in randori.


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## jarrod

i was at a grappling show one time where a guy didn't tap to a choke & went out.  he was okay, but he peed all over himself.  

jf


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## jks9199

jarrod said:


> i was at a grappling show one time where a guy didn't tap to a choke & went out.  he was okay, but he peed all over himself.
> 
> jf


I hope a doctor checked him; that's a clue that he was REALLY out... like deep brain out.  If someone's losing control of their bowels or vomiting after any sort of unconsciousness, they need proper medical evaluation.


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## jarrod

i'm sure he's fine...i saw he working as a greeter at wal-mart the other day :uhyeah:

jf


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## Jonny Figgis

Carter86 said:


> i got choked by my instructor during the class time. he used blood choke method first and i 'blacked out' within 4-5 seconds. then he did throat choke to stop me from breathing and it took about 8-10 secs for me to tap out. i think blood choke is more dangerous because a person can pass out faster although throat choke was more painful.


 
We do this kind of training also. We would perform strangles in a seated position and the person being strangled has one arm raised in the air. When we see the arm lowering, we know they are going out...then we release the pressure. It is a dangerous practice and you have to be in a very controlled environment. The choke is a horrible sensation and a lot of panic can set in; did for me the first time it was performed on me. We have worked the strangles to unconsciousness but don't do this all the time but back in the day it was a frequent occurence in classes around the world. 

It is important to feel what it's like to be strangled or choked as nothing beats first hand experience to get a full understanding of the technique. Much like being hit, getting the brain shook or being knocked out from a strike. An interesting topic for sure.


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## jtweymo

It might be interesting also to consider that there's other forms of choking than what usually gets mentioned...

there's what some schools call "Itteki jime" and this involves a sort of plucking strike to the adam's apple. It's meant to inhibit the ability to speak and to complicate breathing by the convulsive reaction of the muscles of the throat when 'plucked' like this.

And then there's 'Itami jime' which is to wretch the flesh alongside the neck (it's a pain tactic.)

Kinda expands the definition of 'jime-waza' a little bit.


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## Saitama Steve

jtweymo said:


> It might be interesting also to consider that there's other forms of choking than what usually gets mentioned...
> 
> there's what some schools call "Itteki jime" and this involves a sort of plucking strike to the adam's apple. It's meant to inhibit the ability to speak and to complicate breathing by the convulsive reaction of the muscles of the throat when 'plucked' like this.
> 
> And then there's 'Itami jime' which is to wretch the flesh alongside the neck (it's a pain tactic.)
> 
> Kinda expands the definition of 'jime-waza' a little bit.


 
Your "itteki jime" as you describe it sounds more like an atemi to a kyusho, rather than a proper _shime-waza._


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## jtweymo

> Saitama Steve said:  Your "itteki jime" as you describe it sounds more like an atemi to a kyusho, rather than a proper _shime-waza._


 
I could certainly see why one might say so. But it's actually much more akin to a strangulation. I_t's _ &#19968;&#25842;  meaning 'to Cast off or away'? Something like that. It's not really a strike to the throat, it's more like a slap with the fingertips across the adam's apple. The man's body is sort of pushed back sharply when you do it, a kuzure for the hand throw that follows. It's much more like doing a quick strangle against the adam's apple with your fingertips.

The idea is basically that one applies pressure to the throat from the side or the rear in the usual strangulations but in this case it's done from the front. 

The omote henka is to dip the first three fingers into matsukaze (the hollow at the bottom of the throat) and shove him backwards. This is fairly well known version of the technique that gets practiced even in karate but I dunno what they call it? 

The Ura henka for it differs: one grabs the sleeve near the elbow and pulls him into a forearm being thrust up into the adam's apple, not a strike as much as 'running up into' the adam's apple. Then he's wheeled backwards and down.

I can see why it sounds like a strike [ but it's really not.]


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## Aikicomp

I studied Ju-Jitsu since 1982 and have extensive training in Judo Shimewaza and let me tell you that with a "blood choke" you WILL put your opponent out in less than 8 seconds and if you hold it longer than that you WILL have a real chance of  killing him...so be very careful when you apply these techniques.

As for the "air" choke if applied to strong you WILL crush or collapse his trachea and it will not re-open...so again be real careful when applying shimewaza.

Please, please, please I can not stress enough..... if you are going to practice these techniques find a good instructor who knows what he's teaching and do not over apply these chokes, they are very, very dangerous.

Michael


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## jtweymo

That's a really good point and a really good post, Aikicomp.

In line with that: 
Strangulation techniques (shime waza) were originally part of the *Jujutsu* arrest techniques (osae waza) used by the Japanese imperial police in the apprehension of criminals and the restraint of indigenous non-Japanese residents living in Japan. That's why they exist in Jujutsu/Judo.
As part of the arrest techniques, their purpose is largely to restrain and cut off air supply or blood supply, or both. They were originally intended for more serious acts of police restraint.



Actually... I ain't sure precisely which modern Western master said it... maybe it was Donn F Draeger, I think? He said that "...(in Japan, among the Japanese) these shime waza weren't considered the real strangulations..." he went on further to say that "...in Japan, to take a rope and tie it around the guy's throat and around the rail of a bridge and toss him over it... *that* was a real strangulation (as far as the Japanese were concerned.)"  I'm fairly sure it was Donn F Draeger who reported this?

It is also a fact of Shime waza that (what sometimes gets called Hojojutsu) is integral, part of the waza and jutsu. That's worth mentioning too.


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## Saitama Steve

jtweymo said:


> In line with that:
> Strangulation techniques (shime waza) were originally part of the *Jujutsu* arrest techniques (osae waza) used by the Japanese imperial police in the apprehension of criminals and the restraint of indigenous non-Japanese residents living in Japan. That's why they exist in Jujutsu/Judo.
> As part of the arrest techniques, their purpose is largely to restrain and cut off air supply or blood supply, or both. They were originally intended for more serious acts of police restraint.


 
They were callled renkoho (&#36899;&#34892;&#27861; ), not osae-waza. Osae-waza are used when you control someone, pinning them. Renkoho are used to arrest them. 



jtweymo said:


> It is also a fact of Shime waza that (what sometimes gets called Hojojutsu) is integral, part of the waza and jutsu. That's worth mentioning too.


 
No, hojojutsu/torinawa (&#25429;&#32260;&#34899 are for tying up prisoners/criminals using rope or the sageo of the katana. Ideally, you'd use hojo after you have employed shime-waza not before.


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## jtweymo

Hi ya guys, Hi ya Saitama, how R U folks?



> Saitama said: They were callled renkoho (&#36899;&#34892;&#27861; ), not osae-waza. Osae-waza are used when you control someone, pinning them. Renkoho are used to arrest them.


 
Yeah I know. But lots of people wouldn't have known the term renkoho. And not all form of Jujutsu used that term either. For that matter, "osae waza" is judo and not really a jujutsu term per se. Far as I know, it's modern Judo. The point was that this type of material *descends* from the arrest methods of Jujutsu. So do the strangualtion methods. But you already know all of that anyway. You're right though, osae waza technically isn't the correct terminology.




> Saitama also said: No, hojojutsu/torinawa (&#25429;&#32260;&#34899 are for tying up prisoners/criminals using rope or the sageo of the katana. Ideally, you'd use hojo after you have employed shime-waza not before.


 
True but once again I used the term more people would recognize (please note that I said "what sometimes gets called...") you are right though, of course, it's not technically correct terminology. However, if I'm not mistaken, hojojutsu is more like modern police jujutsu terminology for it.

Saitama, I apologize, obviously (folks like) you prefer the more accurate terms to be applied. I was assuming lots of the posters in this thread to be more Judo related so I used terms they'd recognize. I know that isn't really accurate but...

MY APOLOGIES 

Oh and I almost forgot... all that you responded to (that particular post) was remarks on a (now historical) statement made by what I beleive was Donn F Draeger on the entire subject (of Osae waza and Shime waza.) It was he who used the term hojojutsu, I just followed suit because the recorded remark used that term.


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## Saitama Steve

jtweymo said:


> Hi ya guys, Hi ya Saitama, how R U folks?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I know. But lots of people wouldn't have known the term renkoho. And not all form of Jujutsu used that term either. For that matter, "osae waza" is judo and not really a jujutsu term per se. Far as I know, it's modern Judo. The point was that this type of material *descends* from the arrest methods of Jujutsu. So do the strangualtion methods. But you already know all of that anyway. You're right though, osae waza technically isn't the correct terminology.


 
Use italics & brackets to define a term you are unsure that others may know. That way, it's better for everyone. 



jtweymo said:


> True but once again I used the term more people would recognize (please note that I said "what sometimes gets called...") you are right though, of course, it's not technically correct terminology. However, if I'm not mistaken, hojojutsu is more like modern police jujutsu terminology for it.


 
Actually, no.

Hojojutsu is actually a generic term, since each ryuha had it's own terminology for the particular discipline of binding prisoners with rope.  A good number of Edo period jujutsu schools used the term hojojutsu as well as their own ryuha specific term in densho (teaching texts). 




jtweymo said:


> Saitama, I apologize, obviously (folks like) you prefer the more accurate terms to be applied. I was assuming lots of the posters in this thread to be more Judo related so I used terms they'd recognize. I know that isn't really accurate but...
> 
> MY APOLOGIES


 
Ah well, you know the old saying about when you assume something. 

Why assume that others on the forum are clueless?


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## jtweymo

Oookay Saitama.

So...

uh-huh.

Hmph... 'clueless' ??

Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded.

I dunno.... can't tell.


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## Jade Tigress

Can we discuss the topic without insults please?


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## Saitama Steve

No problems on this side Jade.


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## jtweymo

Hello.

Topic is in 'discussion' mode.


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## elder999

In addition to the _mostly_ good posts on this thread, I just thought I'd add that another danger is practicing chokes with an instructor who hasn't received training in the particular resucitative methods associated with them. This used to be a standard part of even judo, but I meet many judo, jujutsu and Brazilian jujitsu people who don't know these methods.


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## Saitama Steve

elder999 said:


> In addition to the _mostly_ good posts on this thread, I just thought I'd add that another danger is practicing chokes with an instructor who hasn't received training in the particular resucitative methods associated with them. This used to be a standard part of even judo, but I meet many judo, jujutsu and Brazilian jujitsu people who don't know these methods.


 
Very good point! 

You're absolutely right, there are a few instructors out there that don't know their resucitation drills for when someone is choked out. 

In one of the jujutsu ryuha I trained in while living in Japan, one par for the course was that you'd eventually be choked out in keiko or knocked out with a strike somewhere along in the training. The shihan for that school would teach kappo to people of certain levels who had permission to teach. 

It's very useful, even for beginners to know though.


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## jarrod

i've never covered resucitation in any of my judo or jujitsu training, other than just let the guy wake up.  all instructors are required to maintain CPR certification though.  our coach's wife(a 6th dan herself, & world sambo champ) had to blow open a guy's trachea at a tournament once.  

jf


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## Aikicomp

jarrod said:


> i've never covered resucitation in any of my judo or jujitsu training, other than *just let the guy wake up*. all instructors are required to maintain CPR certification though. our coach's wife(a 6th dan herself, & world sambo champ) had to *blow open a guy's trachea* at a tournament once.
> 
> jf


 
That is a very dangerous thing to do.... or in that case NOT do. That's why there are rescue techniques, I was always taught and teach that when a person is put out you must take measures to revive them for if left alone they may die.  

I was always under the impression that the trachea was a structure that if crushed WOULD NOT be able to be re-opened, due to the cartilaginous rings which support and protect the trachea.  

Michael


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## jarrod

my anatomy may be off, but he couldn't breathe until she assited him, & something popped in his throat when she did a rescue breath.

people will wake up from a choke unless they have been choked out for a very long time; longer than they should have been choked in class. last time someone got choked out in my class he was awake before i could even get to him. he just said "i'm fine" then continued to roll. 

jf


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## Aikicomp

jarrod said:


> my anatomy may be off, but he couldn't breathe until she assited him, & something popped in his throat when she did a rescue breath.
> 
> people will wake up from a choke unless they have been choked out for a very long time; longer than they should have been choked in class. last time someone got choked out in my class he was awake before i could even get to him. he just said "i'm fine" then continued to roll.
> 
> jf


 
I'm not saying they won't wake up I'm saying the possibility is there and there should be trained people knowledgable enough to help if the situation calls for it. When I first started training in Ju-Jitsu in the early 80's no one was doing wrestling or submissions or shime waza, when I would talk to people about it they would say wrestling or chokes, no, we don't do that. It seems with the recent popularity of UFC & MMA, "clubs" are popping up everywhere and every Tom, Dick and Harry Martial Art have added some sort of choking and wrestling techniques to their system to keep up with the Jones and some really have no clue as to how to teach a choke let alone revive someone that needs it....Just saying it could be a bad situation, one that should be avoided or at the very least planned for if needed. 

Michael


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## jarrod

Aikicomp said:


> I'm not saying they won't wake up I'm saying the possibility is there and there should be trained people knowledgable enough to help if the situation calls for it. When I first started training in Ju-Jitsu in the early 80's no one was doing wrestling or submissions or shime waza, when I would talk to people about it they would say wrestling or chokes, no, we don't do that. It seems with the recent popularity of UFC & MMA, "clubs" are popping up everywhere and every Tom, Dick and Harry Martial Art have added some sort of choking and wrestling techniques to their system to keep up with the Jones and some really have no clue as to how to teach a choke let alone revive someone that needs it....Just saying it could be a bad situation, one that should be avoided or at the very least planned for if needed.
> 
> Michael


 
please take a look at the studies i posted earlier in this thread :

http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm

no fatalities from chokes in sport judo ever, no noticable long-term effects from being choked out.  i appreciate your concern for safety, but for what it's worth the "club" i train at is headed by a very well-qualified instructor.   
if someone is breathing & their heart is beating, they're fine.

jf


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## elder999

jarrod said:


> please take a look at the studies i posted earlier in this thread :
> 
> http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm
> 
> http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm
> 
> no fatalities from chokes in sport judo ever, no noticable long-term effects from being choked out. i appreciate your concern for safety, but for what it's worth the "club" i train at is headed by a very well-qualified instructor.
> if someone is breathing & their heart is beating, they're fine.
> 
> jf


 
And yet,from the same webpage:




> *Resuscitation Techniques (Kappo)*
> 
> 
> Immediately release the victim and lay him or her flat so that blood may flow naturally back to the brain. Placing the victim on his or her side, with the head resting on the arm, will prevent vomit aspiration and facilitate breathing if necessary. Monitor the victim closely to make sure the airway is open and the victim is breathing. The opponent will generally regain consciousness spontaneously and be unharmed. If the athlete does not regain consciousness in 20 to 30 seconds and remains unresponsive to your efforts to revive him or her, medical assistance should be sought immediately.
> 
> *Judo instructors should obtain CPR training and certification for use in case of a breathing or other emergency.* Even without chokes Judo is a strenuous physical activity that carries some risks for which the instructor should be prepared. Try to awaken the patient with vocal or physical stimuli such as tapping or shouting. Check for breathing by putting your face close to the patient's mouth and looking at the chest, listening for air exchange, and feeling for a breath. Keep the airway open and initiate rescue breathing if there is no breathing. If a pulse is absent, commence chest compressions.
> 
> *There are many old methods of traditional resuscitation that can also assist the victim in recovery. If the outcome is less than desirable these interventions may not be defensible in U.S. courts.* They have generally been replaced by CPR which is based on more modern medical knowledge. Among sports coaches and medical professionals in the U.S., CPR is commonly recognized as the appropriate response to a medical emergency. Nevertheless the traditional forms of resuscitation are considered advanced techniques of Judo and instructors may wish to study them to complete their training for historical purposes or for use in special circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Traditional resuscitation techniques include:
> 
> *The direct massage of the carotid triangle on the neck to open up a collapsed artery or to manually stimulate the carotid sinus. *
> Methods of assisting the victim in waking up and focussing attention such as slapping the victim, striking the sole of the foot, or yelling.
> Methods of inducing or simulating breathing through massage of the chest or diaphragm, expanding and contracting the lungs. Three such methods of Kodokan Judo are Sasoi Katsu, the inductive method, Eri Katsu, the lapel method, and So Katsu, the composite method.


It's my position that if an instructor doesn't have at a minimum CPR, they have no business teaching chokes. It's also my position that if they haven't been taught some of these older resucitation techniques, or at least have some awareness of them (and many, many judo instructors in the U.S. don't) they have no business teaching chokes, and maybe no business teaching judo or jujutsu......
....but that's just me-I'm old fashioned like that. :lol:



jarrod said:


> if someone is breathing & their heart is beating, they're fine.


 
Not necessarily-especially not if they''ve remained unconscious..... 

...and, yeah, most of the time people will recover quite readily from chokes, but everyone is different-not just children. There's a special danger in training the middle aged or somewhat older person, in that their veins and arteries are often quite less than they used to be, and all too often without their knowledge of it. Additionally, a lot of school owners don't gather a correct medical history from their students, and don't get a doctor's clearance for participation-awareness of respiratory issues, high blood pressure, or a thyroid condition are all conditions that immediately come to mind as being especially important for anyone training someone in martial activity, never mind with chokes (_do you *think, huh?*:lol-_never mind a variety of other possibilities. Instructors should also be on the lookout for students that have been choked out-_or nearly out_-to ensure that it doesn't happen again in that particular training session-there's really very little reason for this to happen outside of contests, anyway_._ 

Chokes can be practiced, and safely, but only with the guidance of a competent instructor-to my mind, _competence_ implies a certain level of appropriate medical training and awareness.


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## jarrod

well i said we're required to maintain cpr certification, we just don't train traditional kappo.  

jf


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## elder999

jarrod said:


> well i said we're required to maintain cpr certification, we just don't train traditional kappo.
> 
> jf


 

Well, that's a double edged sword-traditional kappo might get you sent to jail or sued, and _CPR might not be enough to restore full blood flow to the brain._......
........no biggie, though, as long as you're insured, and have a releases and procedures in place. If you can't rouse 'em, call an ambulance-that should be the rule anyway.

(Willing to bet John Saylor learned kappo as part of his judo, though.....)


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## jarrod

elder999 said:


> Well, that's a double edged sword-traditional kappo might get you sent to jail or sued, and _CPR might not be enough to restore full blood flow to the brain._......
> ........no biggie, though, as long as you're insured, and have a releases and procedures in place. If you can't rouse 'em, call an ambulance-that should be the rule anyway.
> 
> (Willing to bet John Saylor learned kappo as part of his judo, though.....)


 
so far so good, & i'm closing up shop when i move in may anyhow.  i'm sure saylor learned it but he hasn't seen fit to include it in our cirriculuum.  of course the cpr push could be because steve scott is also a cpr instructor.

...hey, wait a minute...

jf


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## Sandstorm

double post


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## Sandstorm

Aikicomp said:


> I'm not saying they won't wake up I'm saying the possibility is there and there should be trained people knowledgable enough to help if the situation calls for it. When I first started training in Ju-Jitsu in the early 80's no one was doing wrestling or submissions or shime waza, when I would talk to people about it they would say wrestling or chokes, no, we don't do that.


 
Yes, I remember learning Judo at school and we used to have the piss taken out of us because it was seen as 'girly' 'rolling around in pyjamas'. Funny how things change



Aikicomp said:


> *It seems with the recent popularity of UFC & MMA, "clubs" are popping up everywhere and every Tom, Dick and Harry Martial Art have added some sort of choking and wrestling techniques to their system to keep up with the Jones and some really have no clue as to how to teach a choke let alone revive someone that needs it*....Just saying it could be a bad situation, one that should be avoided or at the very least planned for if needed.
> 
> Michael


 
Yes, this is a real concern. There is a Freestyle kickboxing club close by to me and they teach chokes (?)  Everyone is a UFC grappler nowadays, even old traditional arts are advertising their 'lost grappling skills' that were 'misplaced' over the centuries



jarrod said:


> please take a look at the studies i posted earlier in this thread :
> 
> http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm
> 
> http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm
> 
> no fatalities from chokes in sport judo ever, no noticable long-term effects from being choked out. i appreciate your concern for safety, but for what it's worth the "club" i train at is headed by a very well-qualified instructor.
> if someone is breathing & their heart is beating, they're fine.
> 
> jf


 
Indeed. In fact, it was never chokes that were the issue, it always seemd to be shoulder dislocations when I was involved in Judo. People seemed to neglect their breakfall drills:angel:



elder999 said:


> If you can't rouse 'em, call an ambulance-that should be the rule anyway.


 
I think all instructors should either be qualified in recovery, or at least have someone qualified at hand in the class. It's really not worth the aggro if someone is injured in class. I would also agree with the 'call an ambulance', just to cover your back in this world of litigation.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Traditional methods are so easy to do plus effective and in conjunction with CPR training you provide excellent coverage.  

Now in practice I have never not had some one wake up on their own easily and without traditional kappo technique.  However, I have been places where the traditional methods were used a couple of times and were very effective. 

Needless to say like Elder999 I think you owe it to yourself and your students to know both CPR and the traditional methods.


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## jarrod

also i didn't realize kappo included slapping them around or shouting.  that just seems like a common reaction when trying to wake someone up.  i guess we use kappo too.

jf


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