# United Kingdom: Turn in your neighbor if he has replicas



## Grenadier (Oct 23, 2007)

Sometimes I wonder, doesn't the UK gov't have something better to do, than to harass *non-functional* replica owners?  

http://www.wandsworthguardian.co.uk...3181.0.replica_guns_seized_from_collector.php



> Armed police swooped on the flat of a 54-year-old replica pistol collector in Battersea.
> 
> They seized 17 replica guns but police admit the man posed no threat to the community.
> 
> ...


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## thardey (Oct 23, 2007)

I had always figured that governments provided the feeling of safety through the _illusion_ of security, rather than the actual security.

I guess this would be the next logical step: you start guarding against the _illusion_ of danger?

Pretty soon we will all be in a world of illusions of threats, protected by a illusion of safety, against illusional weapons, by a govt. run on illusion, spending real money on illusional wars.

Oh, did I say soon? Ummmm . . . Oh, nevermind.

Maybe at least we could figure out how to spend illusional money on this stuff. Although there are probably economists who would say we already are.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

Am I really here? or this all an illusion?


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## Empty Hands (Oct 23, 2007)

Sadly, given the stories about crime and justice coming out of the UK over the last few years, I am not a bit surprised.

Wake up Brits!


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## MA-Caver (Oct 23, 2007)

thardey said:


> I had always figured that governments provided the feeling of safety through the _illusion_ of security, rather than the actual security.
> 
> I guess this would be the next logical step: you start guarding against the _illusion_ of danger?
> 
> ...



Hey, like the song says... "...merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream..."


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## MBuzzy (Oct 23, 2007)

So....are the police going to reimburse him for his time and money spent on this collection?


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

Well you lot are used to having guns around the place, probably hidden all over the house but we aren't and we actually like it that way. Although, sadly, real guns are becoming easier to get hold of many criminals still use the replicas for robberies. After all people don't actually have any way of telling whether they are real or not when they are being pointed at them. Also many 'replicas' in this country aren't actually replicas, they are what they call, laughingly in my opinion, 'deactivated' weapons which can very easily be 'reactivated' weapons.
You may also like to check up in our media how many children have been killed recently by guns in our country.
I would remind you that the majority of the British public have never seen a gun in real life and the only knowledge they have of weapons is gleaned from tv and films so of course they are very uneasy when someone appears to have firearms in the house next to them. You can sneer at their ignorance but their fear is probably a very real one to them.


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## MBuzzy (Oct 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Well you lot are used to having guns around the place, probably hidden all over the house but we aren't and we actually like it that way. Although, sadly, real guns are becoming easier to get hold of many criminals still use the replicas for robberies. After all people don't actually have any way of telling whether they are real or not when they are being pointed at them. Also many 'replicas' in this country aren't actually replicas, they are what they call, laughingly in my opinion, 'deactivated' weapons which can very easily be 'reactivated' weapons.
> You may also like to check up in our media how many children have been killed recently by guns in our country.
> I would remind you that the majority of the British public have never seen a gun in real life and the only knowledge they have of weapons is gleaned from tv and films so of course they are very uneasy when someone appears to have firearms in the house next to them. You can sneer at their ignorance but their fear is probably a very real one to them.


 
That definately puts a different spin on the discussion, I had no idea that weapons were like that in the UK.  You're right, we get so used to how things are in the US that we apply that to the rest of the world.


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## thardey (Oct 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Well you lot are used to having guns around the place, probably hidden all over the house but we aren't and we actually like it that way. Although, sadly, real guns are becoming easier to get hold of many criminals still use the replicas for robberies. After all people don't actually have any way of telling whether they are real or not when they are being pointed at them. Also many 'replicas' in this country aren't actually replicas, they are what they call, laughingly in my opinion, 'deactivated' weapons which can very easily be 'reactivated' weapons.
> You may also like to check up in our media how many children have been killed recently by guns in our country.
> I would remind you that the majority of the British public have never seen a gun in real life and the only knowledge they have of weapons is gleaned from tv and films so of course they are very uneasy when someone appears to have firearms in the house next to them. You can sneer at their ignorance but their fear is probably a very real one to them.



So are replica guns illegal? Or does your government have the right to confiscate anything that could possibly be used for a crime by anybody because your neighbors are nervous?

Doesn't it worry you that the police may get a complaint from somebody who doesn't know about MA, and come shut down your dojo, because some of the techniques you teach could be used to illegally assault someone? After all, I'm guessing that the only fighting most people have seen also comes from TV, or the movies.

(That's actually not a rhetorical question, BTW, I'm really unfamiliar with citizen's/subjects rights in the UK, and how they are defined.) I would really like to know how you know where you can stand up for yourselves.


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

The police won't come and shut down a Dojo. In the UK most people are familiar with Oriental martial arts as they have been here since the 19th century.In London we have the oldest Judo club outside Japan. Judo, karate and juijitsu were taught in the military during World War 2. 
In this country we need a license to hold weapons, the police come out and inspect where you keep them... a secured cupboard usually and you have to have references.
http://www.psni.police.uk/index/advice_centre/firearms.htm

http://www.surrey.police.uk/flic.asp

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2558291.ece


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## thardey (Oct 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> The police won't come and shut down a Dojo. In the UK most people are familiar with Oriental martial arts as they have been here since the 19th century.In London we have the oldest Judo club outside Japan. Judo, karate and juijitsu were taught in the military during World War 2.
> In this country we need a license to hold weapons, the police come out and inspect where you keep them... a secured cupboard usually and you have to have references.
> http://www.psni.police.uk/index/advice_centre/firearms.htm
> 
> ...



So, from the first one:



> [SIZE=-1]*What is a Firearm?*
> The term "firearm" is defined as a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes:
> (a)any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon or not; and
> (b)any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and
> ...



It sounds as though the replicas are made up of enough parts to be considered a firearm, but in the article:



> Arlene McCarthy, a British Labour MEP, is trying to update a European Union directive on gun control. Id prefer to have them banned but other member states are not ready to. But at the moment theyre not even catego-rised as a firearm and thats very worrying, she said.



They're not banned yet.

So, are replicas illegal without a license?


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## Empty Hands (Oct 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I would remind you that the majority of the British public have never seen a gun in real life and the only knowledge they have of weapons is gleaned from tv and films so of course they are very uneasy when someone appears to have firearms in the house next to them.



Sure.  However, it was the police who raided this man's house and confiscated his collection after they themselves admitted he posed no danger.  Are the police also unaware of what real guns look like?


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## Empty Hands (Oct 23, 2007)

thardey said:


> They're not banned yet.



That quote was almost beyond belief.  What is so worrying about harmless devices that are not in fact firearms not being categorized as firearms?  The only trait they share is appearance.  By that logic, it is worrying that I have not yet been classified as a rapist - after all, I look male.


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> Sure. However, it was the police who raided this man's house and confiscated his collection after they themselves admitted he posed no danger. *Are the police also unaware of what real guns look like?[/*quote]
> 
> Actually the answer to that is yes. Very few police officers are armed or trained to use weapons. Like the majority of the population they have nothing to do with firearms. My force is the only one routinely armed but we aren't Home Office police we are Ministry of Defence. Police officers can go through their entire careers without actually seeing a live weapon. They admitted he posed no danger after the raid, they didn't have to admit that at all did they?


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> That quote was almost beyond belief. What is so worrying about harmless devices that are not in fact firearms not being categorized as firearms? The only trait they share is appearance. By that logic, it is worrying that I have not yet been classified as a rapist - after all, I look male.


 
That's a bit OTT. I have already explained that the 'replica' weapons we get here aren't replicas as such ie copies that cannot be made to fire but are deactivated weapons which can very easily be made operable. Not that harmless in the wrong hands. I'm sure if they were plastic toy type copies there would not be a problem.


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## Empty Hands (Oct 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> They admitted he posed no danger after the raid, they didn't have to admit that at all did they?



First of all, if gun violence is an increasing problem in the UK as you say, then clearly basic familiarity with firearms needs to be part of police basic training, even if they don't carry on the beat.

That said, from the article, the police knew the guns were replicas at least directly after the seizure.  They specifically stated that they were seizing the guns, as replicas, because of the danger they posed.


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> First of all, if gun violence is an increasing problem in the UK as you say, then clearly basic familiarity with firearms needs to be part of police basic training, even if they don't carry on the beat.
> 
> That said, from the article, the police knew the guns were replicas at least directly after the seizure. They specifically stated that they were seizing the guns, as replicas, because of the danger they posed.


 
Sadly yes we are all becoming familiar with guns. We have had a lot of children killed recently by guns usually by other children. They would have kept the guns because of the fact they could have be reactivated.


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## thardey (Oct 23, 2007)

I think there may be a gap in language, here, but there may be a misunderstanding.

When I first read about "replica" weapons, I was thinking something like these:

NON-FIRING western replicas

These are common here in the states with re-enactors, they're used for "old west" decorations, etc.

Some are detailed enough that you can actually see how the mechanics of the gun worked, most are not. But if you've ever picked up one those we have here, you will see in a moment that there is no way to safely (or even remotely safely) convert these into a actual working firearm. They barely function as toys.

The concept of a "deactivated firearm" is NOT the same as a replica. In fact, around here a "deactivated firearm" is a puddle of steel. 

It sounds like what you guys are dealing with are more of a "99% functional" gun, that doesn't take much work to turn into a weapon. We don't call those replicas here. Those are broken guns.

For instance, in Oregon, most security companies have to remove the firing pins from their pistols, but they're still considered firearms.

As a side note, California (where EH hails from) has almost the strictest gun laws in our country, so people there can get pretty weird about guns there, too. (don't believe everything you see in the movies about L.A)


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## Empty Hands (Oct 23, 2007)

thardey said:


> It sounds like what you guys are dealing with are more of a "99% functional" gun, that doesn't take much work to turn into a weapon. We don't call those replicas here. Those are broken guns.



I guess the question would then be how exactly they were disabled.  After all, making a gun isn't really that hard - I've seen a number of garage smith outfits myself.  How much work are we talking about here I wonder?  Also, if these guns were such a danger, why are they not illegal, how did the old guy get 'em, and if they are legal, what was the legal basis for seizing them?



thardey said:


> For instance, in Oregon, most security companies have to remove the firing pins from their pistols, but they're still considered firearms.



I'm from Portland originally myself, and I didn't know that.  What is the point of carrying a disabled firearm?  Looking scary?  They'd be better off carrying a tac flashlight and pepper spray.



thardey said:


> As a side note, California (where EH hails from) has almost the strictest gun laws in our country, so people there can get pretty weird about guns there, too. (don't believe everything you see in the movies about L.A)



Yeah, but it sure didn't stop two someones from being shot to death in the street right in front of my apartment.  All the laws have accomplished is to make it harder to defend myself.


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

thardey said:


> I think there may be a gap in language, here, but there may be a misunderstanding.
> 
> When I first read about "replica" weapons, I was thinking something like these:
> 
> ...


 

That's the ones! the firing pins will be removed and a small 'plug' of metal put somewhere (depending on who's doing it) in the barrel.It's supposed to be immovable but I'm guessing any of you wiould be able to remove it easily and probably someone unfamiliar with guns would be able to after a bit of thought!

Funny you should mention the movies! We think that they are actually influencing many of the teens who've got hold of guns. They are acting out what they think is the American gang scene as seen on films and tv. There is definitely an attraction for young boys there, guns equate to power for them and they identify with the 'ghetto' type of surroundings and with being at odds with society! Of course knowing the police aren't armed as they are in America makes them one up as it were!


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## bydand (Oct 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> That's the ones! the firing pins will be removed and a small 'plug' of metal put somewhere (depending on who's doing it) in the barrel.It's supposed to be immovable but I'm guessing any of you wiould be able to remove it easily and probably someone unfamiliar with guns would be able to after a bit of thought!



I probably could fab a firing pin and drill out the barrel plug if one was there to begin with.  The real issue is the quality of the steal used.  Fire a round out of one of these with a cobble-job conversion and you are going to be holding a twisted hunk of metal with a stump that used to be your hand.  There is a reason these usually sell for under $100 and a firing reproduction runs 3-5 times that much.  There is MUCH more involved in converting these to firing weapons than somebody that didn't have access to a complete metal fab shop even COULD do.   If you did have access, you wouldn't waste money on a replica as a starting point.


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## thardey (Oct 23, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> I guess the question would then be how exactly they were disabled.  After all, making a gun isn't really that hard - I've seen a number of garage smith outfits myself.  How much work are we talking about here I wonder?





Tez3 said:


> That's the ones! the firing pins will be removed and a small 'plug' of metal put somewhere (depending on who's doing it) in the barrel.It's supposed to be immovable but I'm guessing any of you wiould be able to remove it easily and probably someone unfamiliar with guns would be able to after a bit of thought!



Sounds like an afternoon job to me. Hmm, I'm also thinking that the Serial Numbers may not be present, either, since they're "replicas".




> Also, if these guns were such a danger, why are they not illegal, how did the old guy get 'em, and if they are legal, what was the legal basis for seizing them?


That's my question, unless it was just enough on the legal side to slide under the radar . . .

I suppose for us it would be like having an arsenal of semi-auto rifles (not the banned ones). Perfectly legal, but if the police saw that you had stockpiled 30 of them, it would warrant a closer look into why you had them. Also, it's not hard to convert those to full auto, either.

Or maybe it's like what happened to this kid.




> I'm from Portland originally myself, and I didn't know that.  What is the point of carrying a disabled firearm?  Looking scary?  They'd be better off carrying a tac flashlight and pepper spray.


I never could figure that one out, myself.




> Yeah, but it sure didn't stop two someones from being shot to death in the street right in front of my apartment.  All the laws have accomplished is to make it harder to defend myself.


At least in England, they have a little better chance to control the overall amount of guns available, because of being separated by the channel. Just about anywhere else, though, and gun control becomes a joke to criminals. Even in the UK, I guess that it will be a losing battle.




> Funny you should mention the movies! We think that they are actually influencing many of the teens who've got hold of guns. They are acting out what they think is the American gang scene as seen on films and tv. There is definitely an attraction for young boys there, guns equate to power for them and they identify with the 'ghetto' type of surroundings and with being at odds with society! Of course knowing the police aren't armed as they are in America makes them one up as it were!


Oh, jeez, I just realized that means that there's these kids who's only source of training is some thug movie. And there's no place to practice. They probably hold the gun sideways and can't hit the broad side of a barn. (That's an old American firearm-ism for ya  -couldn't hit the ground if you were aiming at it-, etc, but I digress.) Now that's a scary thought.

IIRC, the first type of gun control in England was actually a ban on the crossbow. So I can understand wanting to stay with a system that has actually worked fairly well for 1,000 years, but there's absolutely no way you could really enforce a strict gun control system here, just way too many black-market options. If you suddenly banned guns, then there would suddenly be a lot of guns that get hidden in the attic.


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## thardey (Oct 23, 2007)

bydand said:


> I probably could fab a firing pin and drill out the barrel plug if one was there to begin with.  The real issue is the quality of the steal used.  Fire a round out of one of these with a cobble-job conversion and you are going to be holding a twisted hunk of metal with a stump that used to be your hand.  There is a reason these usually sell for under $100 and a firing reproduction runs 3-5 times that much.  There is MUCH more involved in converting these to firing weapons than somebody that didn't have access to a complete metal fab shop even COULD do.   If you did have access, you wouldn't waste money on a replica as a starting point.




Sound like they're dealing with some kind of "Saturday night special", or maybe confiscated, or stolen weapons in Germany, that get "converted" into replicas.

If you read the article that Tez posted, it sounds as though the market for this stuff is kind of shady.

Besides, if your goal was to gain "street cred", no one would need to know that your gun is a piece of crap. If it goes "bang" then it's cool. (provided you still have your hand.)


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

Crossbows and guns maybe illegal but it is also illegal, if you are male and over 14 not to practice your archery every Sunday afternoon in a place set aside for this purpose being correctly dressed and equiped.

In Regina v Habs, Quinn, Fairclough etc al.The police in Oxford brought a procescution when the defendants had set up archery targets in the High Street. This law was used as their defence. The magistrates allowed it but fined each defendant 10 guineas and costs for failing to wear their swords while practising.


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,,2154806,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317307.ece

In the second article you will see that the guns are being smuggled in from Ireland.There has always been plenty of weapons in Ireland as they were smuggled in from the States, bought and paid for by fund raising groups of Irish-American sympathisers who may or may not have known that the money was for the IRA.


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## thardey (Oct 24, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Crossbows and guns maybe illegal but it is also illegal, if you are male and over 14 not to practice your archery every Sunday afternoon in a place set aside for this purpose being correctly dressed and equiped.
> 
> In Regina v Habs, Quinn, Fairclough etc al.The police in Oxford brought a procescution when the defendants had set up archery targets in the High Street. This law was used as their defence. The magistrates allowed it but fined each defendant 10 guineas and costs for failing to wear their swords while practising.




:lfao:


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 24, 2007)

Great illustration of why a group of Englishmen came up with a new form of gvt. back in the 1700's and wrote up that little ole' amendment #2.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 24, 2007)

Well spoken, sir :tup:!  Altho' I think that keeping firearms out of the hands of those with mental problems or criminal records is sensible, the sweeping legislation we have to endure over here only works to disarm the law-abiding.

Oh and sadly, they finally got around to repealing the compulsory archery law a while ago (altho' it's still legal to kill those of a < certain nationality > if they roam the streets of York during the hours of darkness !).


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## theletch1 (Oct 24, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Well spoken, sir :tup:! Altho' I think that keeping firearms out of the hands of those with mental problems or criminal records is sensible, the sweeping legislation we have to endure over here only works to disarm the law-abiding.
> 
> Oh and sadly, they finally got around to repealing the compulsory archery law a while ago (altho' it's still legal to kill those of a < certain nationality > if they roam the streets of York during the hours of darkness !).


Just as it's still legal to beat one's wife if done on the steps of the county courthouse on a Sunday morning in one fine state of our union.  Well, gee, thanks, Mark.  Now I have to go start a thread on silly laws.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Well spoken, sir :tup:! Altho' I think that keeping firearms out of the hands of those with mental problems or criminal records is sensible, the sweeping legislation we have to endure over here only works to disarm the law-abiding.
> 
> Oh and sadly, they finally got around to repealing the compulsory archery law a while ago (altho' it's still legal to kill those of a < certain nationality > if they roam the streets of York during the hours of darkness !).


 

and quite right too in my opinion!


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## Grenadier (Oct 25, 2007)

bydand said:


> There is a reason these usually sell for under $100 and a firing reproduction runs 3-5 times that much. There is MUCH more involved in converting these to firing weapons than somebody that didn't have access to a complete metal fab shop even COULD do. If you did have access, you wouldn't waste money on a replica as a starting point.


 
Exactly.  The time and precision needed to make such a decorative replica even somewhat safe to use, would be overwhelming.  Even more importantly, someone with the knowledge of how to pull off such a thing would probably find it much easier to make his own STEN submachine gun receiver instead.  

In the end, criminals aren't going to do such a thing, since they're usually lazy, and lack the know-how, to pull off such a feat.  They'd rather buy real, unlawful, firearms from the black market, or steal them.  

I find it interesting, that some people give criminals all of the credit in the world, claiming that they could do such a thing, yet they don't believe that law-abiding people have the capability to carry lawfully owned firearms...


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## mini_dez (Oct 25, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> (altho' it's still legal to kill those of a < certain nationality > if they roam the streets of York during the hours of darkness !).


Just you try it... 

Is there not another stipulation to that law?  I've heard it but the Scotsman has to be in a kilt, or the Englishman must use a bow and arrow from the city walls.  Or something like that anyway...


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## thardey (Oct 25, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> Exactly.  The time and precision needed to make such a *decorative replica* even somewhat safe to use, would be overwhelming.  Even more importantly, someone with the knowledge of how to pull off such a thing would probably find it much easier to make his own STEN submachine gun receiver instead.
> 
> In the end, criminals aren't going to do such a thing, since they're usually lazy, and lack the know-how, to pull off such a feat.  They'd rather buy real, unlawful, firearms from the black market, or steal them.



True, but we're not talking about decorative replicas anymore. That's what I thought at first, too. Nor are we talking about "cap guns" either.

From www.timesonline.co.uk/



> REPLICA handguns that are being converted so British criminal gangs can use them to maim and kill can be bought in Germany without a permit.
> Guns of the type said to be fuelling gang culture in the UK are available in high street stores and family-run arms dealerships for as little as £80.
> 
> 
> ...


Nobody said they were safe, but they already have all of the components of a functional firearm. Couple that with what Tez said:




Tez3 said:


> That's the ones! the firing pins will be removed and a small 'plug' of metal put somewhere (depending on who's doing it) in the barrel.It's supposed to be immovable but I'm guessing any of you wiould be able to remove it easily and probably someone unfamiliar with guns would be able to after a bit of thought!



How could you remove the firing pin unless it started with one? Same with the plug. I've never seen a "american" replica that didn't have the plug cast as part of the gun itself. These plugs were added later. 

What was the term Tez used? "Reactivated" I think. That makes me think that they were active guns at one time, then deactivated, then sold and "reactivated".

I mean what does a knock-off .38 go for at a pawn shop? $100, $150? What about a .22 pistol? I don't know what calibers they're using over there, but in the land of knives, a .22 would be king.



> The Manchester police say Cuno Melcher models from Germany and Russian Baikals bought in Lithuania are two sources of gun crime in the city. *Most can be converted by drilling through a partial obstruction in the barrel and installing a new cylinder. *
> One victim of a converted weapon was Jay Patel from Roch-dale, Lancashire, who nearly died in October 2005 when his post office and convenience store was targeted by armed robbers. He was shot by a flare gun converted to fire real ammunition. The bullet hit the right side of his head before lodging itself in the ceiling. It smelt of firecrackers and I fell back thinking I was hurt. Its only because the gun was not 100% accurate that Im here today, he said.


And it's wouldn't be the kids/thugs who are doing the modifiying. 



> Guns of the type said to be fuelling gang culture in the UK are available in high street stores and family-run arms dealerships for as little as £80.


Sounds like these guys have a sort of gunsmithing shops. They probably don't care if they're safe, they just make them semi-functional, and sell them to desperate criminals.

Like Tez said, if these teenagers learned about guns through the media, they don't know enough about guns to know the difference between a safe gun and a dangerous gun. If the barrel is made of metal, they probably assume it's strong enough.

Here, we have enough education about KB's, and catastrophic failures to know not to mess around with areas under pressure. But they're desperate enough to use flare guns! That's the kind of situation a black market arms dealer would love to be in. Sell cheap knock-offs to hungry, uneducated teenagers. It's not like they can take these guns to the range and test them out. The first time they put a live round through one, is probably when they're aiming at their enemy.

Remember that ridiculous article about the .22 shell that got left on the street? That just proved how unfamiliar the whole gun concept is over there. It's easy to take advantage of that ignorance when people are obsessed with the romantic image of the gun.



> I find it interesting, that some people give criminals all of the credit in the world, claiming that they could do such a thing, yet they don't believe that law-abiding people have the capability to carry lawfully owned firearms...



And that is a very good point. People will always over-exaggerate their fears when imagining something they don't know about. I guess it goes back to the lure of the "dark side", apparently stupid people can be successful criminals, while it takes a genius, or superhero to be a good guy.


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