# Do any of you incorporate weight training into your Wing Chun?



## koenig (Mar 6, 2009)

I think weight training is a necessary component of martial arts development but a lot of purists are 100% anti-weight lifting.

What are your opinions?


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## almost a ghost (Mar 6, 2009)

I've been practicing Wing Chun for close to 8 years, the past 6 of those I have been going to the gym and lifting weights.

I've never experienced a problem with it affecting my wing chun, and quite frankly I do it to combat a sit-on-your-butt 9-5 job does.


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## Seeker (Mar 6, 2009)

I think weight lifting is a great supplement to any physical activity. As long as you don't confuse strength training with body building. If you want to get stronger, stick with strength training, do compound exercises over isolation. 

Or heck, just do kettlebells.


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## Nabakatsu (Mar 6, 2009)

I've never done any of these techniques, and have no idea about their validity but.. it seems to be on topic and may help at least give ya some ideas!


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## mook jong man (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't do it to help my Wing Chun I do it to stay alive , I have hereditary high blood pressure and if I don't watch it I will end up with diabetes too.

I also do kettle bells lots of swings and snatches , pull ups and chin ups , hanging leg raises for the gut and sometimes free weights . I don't think it makes you slow as long as you don't go mad and lift maximal weights trying to get a body builder typ of body , the Bruce Lee type of physique is what I try to aim for , and I might just get there if liposuction were to suddenly come down in price.


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## chisauking (Mar 6, 2009)

Is that you in the utube clip, mook jong man?


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## yak sao (Mar 6, 2009)

I do pull ups ( several variations,)  pushups (several variations) and body weight squats as my main workout and supplement these with dumbells.

Example: Mon: the above body weight exercises plus DB bench press,    
                     one arm rowing and what ever other chest 
                     and back exercise strike me that day

             Wed: same body weight ex. plus DB military press rvrs   
                     flies and lateral raises plus any other shoulder
                     ex that I'm in the mood for

             Fri:    Same body weight ex plus DB curls tricep curls
                      forearm work etc

Also as a warmup for all three days I hit the Total Gym for several reps of various ex.


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## mook jong man (Mar 6, 2009)

chisauking said:


> Is that you in the utube clip, mook jong man?


 
Nah mate , I'm much to ugly and shy to be on Youtube .
I don't actually like this whole Youtube generation thing , call me an old fuddy duddy if you like , I think its full of a lot of try hards and exihibitionists.

 It wasn't around when I was learning the Chun and I'm glad really because you know yourself there is a hell of a lot of crap on there being portrayed as Wing Chun and we'd all be better off if it wasn't on there in my opinion .

 No I'm too shy for that stuff , I don't even like being photographed , I'm like those natives in Papua New Guinea that believes it steals your soul lol.


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## chisauking (Mar 6, 2009)

Don't worry, mook jong man, I only asked because I would really like to have a go at the kettle bells -- for no other reason other than it looks fun!

I know what you mean about utube, clips, etc., etc. Many, many years ago, I was tempted to post one of my gwoh-sau clips on the net. The way I'd trained then was very, very agressive, and my chisau looked more like a full out boxing match!. Lucky I didn't go through with it, because looking back, I can see how crude it was. LOL, in those days, I deluded myself, thinking that I was quite good.

That's one of the reasons why I NEVER make any comments on any clips -- because I understand it's only a moment in time for those that posted, and it offers me a great form of free enertainment. LOL. Mind you, some people believe totally the 'truth' of those clips and form their OPINION of wing chun's weakness on the basis of what they see.

sal-la-vie (sp?)


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## koenig (Mar 6, 2009)

seeker said:


> or heck, just do kettlebells.


Kettlebells are great!


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## mook jong man (Mar 7, 2009)

chisauking said:


> Don't worry, mook jong man, I only asked because I would really like to have a go at the kettle bells -- for no other reason other than it looks fun!
> 
> I know what you mean about utube, clips, etc., etc. Many, many years ago, I was tempted to post one of my gwoh-sau clips on the net. The way I'd trained then was very, very agressive, and my chisau looked more like a full out boxing match!. Lucky I didn't go through with it, because looking back, I can see how crude it was. LOL, in those days, I deluded myself, thinking that I was quite good.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah you should get one mate , but I warn you they are bloody expensive , or at least they were when I bought one . Mine is 16kg and cost $150 Australian , but that was about 3 years ago , they should be cheaper now I imagine.

They really do burn the fat off of you as well and the cardio can be very intense depending on what  exercise you are doing , with free weights I seemed to always feel a bit stiff and slightly musclebound .

 But you don't seem to get that with the kettlebell , it seems to work on your flexibility , strength and cardio all at the same time . I'm 88kg and a 16 kg bell suits me fine , but if your a really big guy maybe you might need a 24kg .


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## chisauking (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks, MJM, but I would probably try to have a go first with someone else's kettle bells before forking out for my own. 

Traditionally, the look-dim-boon kwan & the BJD is the equiverlent of working out with weights (in a dynamic manner), but it's always nice to experiment with other methods as well.


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## geezer (Mar 8, 2009)

koenig said:


> I think weight training is a necessary component of martial arts development but a lot of purists are 100% anti-weight lifting.
> 
> What are your opinions?



The "purists" have a point. Unless a weight program is very selectively tailored for the unique kinds of strength needed in Wing Chun/Tsun, you end up building a lot of unnecessary, unproductive bulk. That bulk will add weight to your arms and slow down your WC/WT techniques. The traditional approach is that lots of hard work training at WC/WT will give you all you need. 

The other problem is that weight training can get a bit addictive. You start liking the fact that you look strong, and neglect training your technique in favor of counterproductive lifting. Really, my current instructor is a short, fat guy who surpassed me in skill just by training WT to the max. I literally can't touch the guy... and he was once my junior in the system. So based on what I've learned by working with him, I'd say that weight-lifting is for second tier dummies who can't hack it with their technique. Oh, look at the time! Gotta go, this is my day for working upper body (chest and arms) and I'm hoping to up my limit a bit and finally break my plateau on the bench press... _later dudes_.


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## paulus (Mar 9, 2009)

geezer said:


> The traditional approach is that lots of hard work training at WC/WT will give you all you need.


That's the approach our club takes. Given that WC is geared towards helping the smaller, weaker person defend themselves against bigger, stronger attackers it makes sense that the focus is on skill and not strength.


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## Hagakure (Mar 9, 2009)

I do weights, but not necessarily at all for Wing Chun or health reasons, or to look good, but simply because I enjoy it. I've done it for years. Waaay before I restarted MA training and many years before starting my WC specifically. Can it be of benefit? I think that depends on what you train and how.


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## Joab (Mar 9, 2009)

And the Sifu was incredibly quick and a weight trainer.


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## Hagakure (Mar 9, 2009)

Joab said:


> And the Sifu was incredibly quick and a weight trainer.


 
My sifu also weight trains and is quick as hell.


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## geezer (Mar 9, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> I do weights, but not necessarily at all for Wing Chun or health reasons, or to look good, but simply because I enjoy it. I've done it for years. Waaay before I restarted MA training and many years before starting my WC specifically.* Can it be of benefit? I think that depends on what you train and how.*


 
You can get strong and fast with or without it, _if you train smart_. Me, well I'm old and slow and I do some weight training. So what does that tell you? Don't train with weights. If you do, you will eventually get old!


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## Hagakure (Mar 9, 2009)

geezer said:


> You can get strong and fast with or without it, _if you train smart_. Me, well I'm old and slow and I do some weight training. So what does that tell you? Don't train with weights. If you do, you will eventually get old!


 


Bought a smile to me face then mate. Good on yer.


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## koenig (Mar 10, 2009)

geezer said:


> The "purists" have a point. Unless a weight program is very selectively tailored for the unique kinds of strength needed in Wing Chun/Tsun, you end up building a lot of unnecessary, unproductive bulk. That bulk will add weight to your arms and slow down your WC/WT techniques.



That's what "traditionalists" say but it's not true.  The people in the world with the fastest muscle contraction time (Olympic sprinters and Olympic lifters) have plenty of bulk.

Muscle mass does not hinder flexibility or speed (two common arguments against weight training by "purists").  Tom Platz, the bodybuilder with the biggest quads ever, could do the splits.  The only way muscle size gets in the way is if you get to be ridiculously huge which isn't going to happen to the average weightlifter who doesn't have elite level genetics and who doesn't eat 8,000 calories a day and doesn't use the drugs required to get into the upper levels of competitive bodybuilding.



> The traditional approach is that lots of hard work training at WC/WT will give you all you need.



It gives you a great foundation, but you're screwed if you come up against another WC practitioner with equal skill but who is also a powerlifter!


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## geezer (Mar 10, 2009)

koenig said:


> That's what "traditionalists" say but it's not true. The people in the world with the fastest muscle contraction time (Olympic sprinters and Olympic lifters) have plenty of bulk.


 
Yes, but they dont have excessive bulk in non-essential areas. If maximum total muscle mass was the best way to maximize all performance, then all Olympic athletes would be built exactly the same way, _like powerlifters_. Instead, there tends to be an ideal body type for each sport. Generally speaking, it is wise to carefully tailor your training to meet your specific needs. That said, I'm just trying to get a little stronger... that's all.


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## koenig (Mar 10, 2009)

Only the heavyweight powerlifters are big (fat, lol).

The lightweight ones are ridiculous.  120 pound people bench pressing 400 pounds.

I know plenty of martial artists who weigh much more than that yet who cannot lift even half of that.

It's possible to get very strong without adding size through training with heavy weights.  The increase in strength comes from central nervous system adaptation.  Of course the "not adding size" part comes from a) not eating like a bodybuilder and b) keeping the volume low.  A few sets of low reps with heavy weight won't add any size, but it will make you very strong over time.  Of course it won't do anything for your endurance, but that's another issue.


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## Ben Grimm (Mar 12, 2009)

I usually stick to plyometrics. However I do bench press to develop my tricep strength for punching.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 13, 2009)

koenig said:


> That's what "traditionalists" say but it's not true. The people in the world with the fastest muscle contraction time (Olympic sprinters and Olympic lifters) have plenty of bulk.
> 
> Muscle mass does not hinder flexibility or speed (two common arguments against weight training by "purists"). Tom Platz, the bodybuilder with the biggest quads ever, could do the splits. *The only way muscle size gets in the way is if you get to be ridiculously huge which isn't going to happen to the average weightlifter who doesn't have elite level genetics and who doesn't eat 8,000 calories a day and doesn't use the drugs required to get into the upper levels of competitive bodybuilding.*


 

Thanks for dashing my hopes.


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## Seeker (Mar 13, 2009)

koenig said:


> Only the heavyweight powerlifters are big (fat, lol).
> 
> The lightweight ones are ridiculous.  *120 pound people bench pressing 400 pounds*.
> 
> ...



Strength is a skill, more so than the conditioning and bulking up of the muscles. Just as punching is a skill, the reason my 140 lbs Sifu can send 200+ lbs me reeling across the room with a single punch (me wearing a chest protector of course).

It has a lot to do with being able to access and and fire off the optimal amount of muscle fibers, coordinated at the right time and in the right sequence. 

The reason most power-lifters and strong men do not lift their max but rarely and they don't lift 'till exhaustion is so that their central nervous system doesn't get accustomed or set to a max weight that they can lift.

It's kind of like the parable about the elephant who is leashed with a paper chain. I guess.


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## matsu (Mar 13, 2009)

as a former bodybuilder i have weighed 19stone at 6ft2in the past, a personal trainer and someone who now uses much less weight and much less weight training i can honestly say that it DOES interfere with your wing chun!
this is because with wing chun,-and most martial arts)you use the muscles differently.
with my pectoral bulk i find it almost impossible to do a centreline tan sau without severe concentration.... NOT because my chest is so big BUT i am so used to pulling my arm across my chest with my pectoral muscle and/or pushing with my delts and not relaxing my chest and allowing the elbow to come across.i need to learn how to use the muscles differntly to how i do as a weight trainer.

if you train with weights you will be fitter faster stronger leaner and more flexible that if you di not! end of!! but it is how you incorporate that into you wing chun that will make a difference.
i am extremely strong in my exercises and i look like i am, but my sifu can out push me he can out press me out punch me and i,m sure he could tear a phonebook in half because he has what i call real strength rahter than specific strength like i do!
i now weight train 4 days per week in the mornings but i am using a fraction of the weight and i use very different exercises to what i did to now help my body and muscle memory adapt to wing chun techniques!


*seeker- "The reason most power-lifters and strong men do not lift their max but rarely and they don't lift 'till exhaustion is so that their central nervous system doesn't get accustomed or set to a max weight that they can lift."*
this is only slightly true-the reason powerlifters and sprinters (even marathon runners also actually) rarely push to the max is the peaking phenomenon-i,m am sure its placeabo effect personally but you build up your performance gradually toward a meet/race so that you perform at your very best on the right day....
BUT also you never want to push youself to the max day in day out because your central nervous system will shut you down in preservation mode-it wont let you overdo it continously for fear of permanent damage.

sifu always says you will get strong enough by doing 200-2000 punches a day and you will, esp if you suplement them with push ups bag work etc.... but most of us would like to look like we can punch the crap out of an opponent as well.
hope that makes sense i feel i ahve rambled on far too much

matsu


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## qwksilver61 (Mar 13, 2009)

I was told to "refrain from lifting weights,the training wil take care of any deficiency,besides it will only slow you down and cause the muscles to work against you" (ie;extensors and contractors)


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## matsu (Mar 14, 2009)

the problem with weights ie bodybuilding is that it designed to build each specific muscle as an individual to its strongest and therefore its biggest potential. a bodybuilder then uses each selection of exercises like a sculpter does clay to add muscle so that they are(or should be) proportional to each other. it has no relevence to real active strength.

but if you plan a weights schedule to enhance your training you will find you are beta because you SUPPLEMENT your training with weights.

look at any true athelete sprinter high jumper triple jumper . they all use weights secifically to enhance their endeavour and i believe that we can all do the same.
and if we are to believe what we read hear about bruce lee- he used weights and was apparantly superhuman strong for his light frame!

sorry i must have verbal diahraooeeaaaheaeaaaa this week!

matsu


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## dnovice (Mar 15, 2009)

I just do push up's no weights. I used to.


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## koenig (Mar 16, 2009)

qwksilver61 said:


> it will only slow you down and cause the muscles to work against you" (ie;extensors and contractors)



That's also physiologically incorrect.

It's like saying if your biceps and triceps get really strong, it's going to slow down your punches cuz your biceps are slowing down your triceps.

When a muscle contracts against resistance, its antagonist relaxes.  This happens by default unless you consciously contract it.  Therefore, nothing will "slow you down," such as your biceps "slowing down" a punch unless you're consciously contracting it


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## koenig (Mar 16, 2009)

Seeker said:


> Strength is a skill, more so than the conditioning and bulking up of the muscles.



I never said it wasn't 

However instead of saying a "skill" i'd say "a function of CNS efficiency."



> It has a lot to do with being able to access and and fire off the optimal amount of muscle fibers, coordinated at the right time and in the right sequence.



Yup.  Neurological efficiency.



> The reason most power-lifters and strong men do not lift their max but rarely and they don't lift 'till exhaustion is so that their central nervous system doesn't get accustomed or set to a max weight that they can lift.



Most powerlifters and strongmen lift near their max (3-5 rep range) in order to keep their CNS accustomed to heavy weights, but you're right, they don't max out often because they don't want to hit CNS fatigue.  This is especially true for the competitive ones who have to plan out their maxes to the day (competition day).

In fact, if they always lifted their max, they'd never make any progress, hence the saying "only the mediocre are always at their best."  The smart and strong ones cycle and back off the weights frequently.

It's why in the gym you see a lot of guys who can bench 225 but never increase.  Every workout they want to do 225 to appease their egos and so they never give their body a chance to adapt and improve.  If they backed off a bit down to 170 or so and ramped back up they'd probably hit 230 or 235 in a few weeks.  But no one wants to do that because then no one would see them bench 225 for a few weeks and we can't have that can we!!!


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## qwksilver61 (Mar 17, 2009)

Not my personal opinion,but what was told to me by GGM Leung Ting while attending a seminar.


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## Ben Grimm (Mar 17, 2009)

I like plyometrics since they build explosive power.


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## koenig (Mar 17, 2009)

qwksilver61 said:


> Not my personal opinion,but what was told to me by GGM Leung Ting while attending a seminar.



No offense to you or Leung Ting intended.

But, and this applies toward almost all traditional instructors... most martial artists are about the last people in the world you want to get weightlifting of physiology advice from.

It's not their fault tho.  I believed a lot of the "martial arts weightlifting myths" for years, too, until I started learning how things really work.  I avoided lifting weights for YEARS because I thought it would hurt my progress.  I thought it would make me slow.  I thought it would make me "too big" (lol... with my metabolism.. yeah right!).  Instead, I did crazy strength sets and other methods of building strength that I honestly believed were more effective (a little bit was brainwashing and a little bit was denial... and a little bit was me craving something exotic and superior).  But just on that example, I can honestly tell you that I got better results from my first few months of (correct technique) weightlifting than from YEARS of super secret internal strength development sets prior to picking up a weight.

Anyway I'm getting off topic.


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2009)

koenig said:


> ... I can honestly tell you that I got better results from my first few months of (correct technique) weightlifting than from YEARS of super secret internal strength development sets prior to picking up a weight.
> 
> Anyway* I'm getting off topic.*



_No, you're not_ (IMHO). I thought the topic was whether or not weight training was useful... and you are straight to the point here. Although, I don't know if you are entirely right or not. I was getting grilled the other day for being a bit stiff and heavy in my chi-sau, and my partners suspected it was because I've started lifting again. And, they may have been right _on that occasion_, since I was still sore from the effects (DOMS) of a heavy workout. But with another day of rest, that faded away. The most experienced person present was of the opinion that the problem with being heavy and stiff is at least as much psychological as physical. And that the negative effects of lifting may have been overstated by traditionlalists (as you pointed out). Hell, I personally know a couple of excellent chunners who are way overweight. They are still fast and powerful. So how much harm could a little extra muscle do?


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## Ben Grimm (Mar 18, 2009)

I would say that it's only because of DOMS. I believe that a little extra muscle wouldn't hurt at all. Especially if the correct exercises are done for the necessary muscle groups.


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## koenig (Mar 20, 2009)

Yes, it was because of DOMS.

DOMS makes everything suck, especially walking _down_ stairs.  lol.

I remember my first squat workout ever.  I was a Freshman in college and I walked from my dorm to the gym.  To get there I had to go up some stairs.  I remember thinking "good, I'm glad the up stairs are on the way there, because going up stairs is hard work.  After my workout I'll be tired but I'll only have to go down stairs and that's easy."

Boy did I have that backward!  I remember when my leg buckled and I fell and caught the railing to save myself.  lol.

Well, I guess technically that wasn't DOMS since it was right after my workout and DOMS usually doesn't start for a day or two.

Anyway, DOMS makes it hard to do stuff.  It messes with your technique and undoubtedly your chi sao.  Good thing it tends to fade over time.


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## WCman1976 (Jan 31, 2012)

koenig said:


> I think weight training is a necessary component of martial arts development but a lot of purists are 100% anti-weight lifting.
> 
> What are your opinions?



I would think that NOT lifting would be more detrimental to wing chun. What martial artist doesn't perform better when they are in better shape?  For my money, I prefer cardio workouts to weights (although I used to be the opposite). Still, you need to have weights in there because without it, you would start losing muscle mass. (For example, Shaun T from the Insanity DVDs isn't so massive just because of cardio: he doesn't promote this, but he lifts weights as well.)


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