# What should a black belt look like?



## Ironbear24 (Jan 6, 2016)

When I picture a black belt I used to think of a very muscular guy, looks dangerous and in general a tough guy. Now that I am no longer 7 years old I learned that for many martial arts, black belt is an impressive feat, but it does not necessarily mean you are a master.

Still even though there is that fact, I see many black belts that look obese and out of shape. Is level of fitness not a requirement for most martial arts? I know in my old kenpo dojo it was to an extent, I mean you were not required to be Mr universe or something but you had to be on good shape to spar for awhile without getting too winded to continue.

What are your thoughts on this? I am very interested to learn.


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2016)

You just know I'm going to tell you it's long, black and made of material, usually cotton don't you?

Why do you assume a black belt would be a 'guy', you don't know any female black belts?


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 6, 2016)

The female black belts I have seen are usually in great shape, that's why I didn't mention them. The question was asked because I've seen many male black belts who at least appear to be out of shape which raised the question.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> When I picture a black belt I used to think of a very muscular guy, looks dangerous and in general a tough guy. Now that I am no longer 7 years old I learned that for many martial arts, black belt is an impressive feat, but it does not necessarily mean you are a master.
> 
> Still even though there is that fact, I see many black belts that look obese and out of shape. Is level of fitness not a requirement for most martial arts? I know in my old kenpo dojo it was to an extent, I mean you were not required to be Mr universe or something but you had to be on good shape to spar for awhile without getting too winded to continue.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? I am very interested to learn.



The definition of a "black belt" student varies from dojo to dojo. Every dojo has their own set of standards for the black belt. In some dojos they've got very high standards and you don't get a black belt until after very hard intense training and at other dojos they practically hand it to you and then there are tons of dojos that fall somewhere in between. Sure, there are some black belts that are big, muscular guys but you will find skinny people with black belts, fat and overweight people with black belts, and all different sorts of people. It varies tremendously.


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> The female black belts I have seen are usually in great shape, that's why I didn't mention them. The question was asked because I've seen many male black belts who at least appear to be out of shape which raised the question.




Mmm I'm not going to pick out the sexism and prejudice in that statement as it is nearly midnight and I'm off to bed, but you may want to think about it a bit.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 6, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You just know I'm going to tell you it's long, black and made of material, usually cotton don't you?
> 
> Why do you assume a black belt would be a 'guy', you don't know any female black belts?





Tez3 said:


> Mmm I'm not going to pick out the sexism and prejudice in that statement as it is nearly midnight and I'm off to bed, but you may want to think about it a bit.



I don't see how anything I said was sexist or prejudices. I feel like you are reading too much into this. 



PhotonGuy said:


> The definition of a "black belt" student varies from dojo to dojo. Every dojo has their own set of standards for the black belt. In some dojos they've got very high standards and you don't get a black belt until after very hard intense training and at other dojos they practically hand it to you and then there are tons of dojos that fall somewhere in between. Sure, there are some black belts that are big, muscular guys but you will find skinny people with black belts, fat and overweight people with black belts, and all different sorts of people. It varies tremendously.



Ok different standards for different dojos. Thank you, my next question is should seeing many black belts from a dojo be out of shape be a red flag that this dojo is no good or should it not be an issue?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Is level of fitness not a requirement for most martial arts?



No.  Martial arts is about martial arts, not looking pretty in a Speedo.

I've changed a lot from this guy:







To this guy:






If you don't think I can kick major booty because I've gotten old and I've got a big gut, come on over here and show me your teeth.  I'll tell you which ones you get to take home in your pocket.  I don't have to have a 'level of fitness' to whip the everloving crap out of most insolent young upstarts.

All meant in good fun.  As far as you know.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Thank you, my next question is should seeing many black belts from a dojo be out of shape be a red flag that this dojo is no good or should it not be an issue?



I dunno.  Why don't you get on the floor with them and see how many ways they can make you bleed?


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 6, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No.  Martial arts is about martial arts, not looking pretty in a Speedo.
> 
> I've changed a lot from this guy:
> 
> ...



I would be honored to be whooped by you. I could possibly learn and better myself from the experience.


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't see how anything I said was sexist or prejudices. I feel like you are reading too much into this.



I feel you are judging people lol, you think the women are 'fit' and the men are obese. Stop looking for 'red flags' and start looking at people as martial artists instead.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 6, 2016)

Now I have a bit of a personal question. If you do not mind me asking. How did you go from a young Caucasian man to becoming a large heavyset black man?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I would be honored to be whooped by you. I could possibly learn and better myself from the experience.



Then don't judge a book by its cover and all that stuff.  You seem to be young.  If that is true, you will be amazed at two things as you get older.  The first is that your body changes whether you want it to or not (for most of us), and the second is that life, as it is kicking you square dead in the booty for fifty years or so, gives something back in exchange for the youth it robs you of.  My hair is gone.  My mean is meaner.  My gut is large.  I hit like a truck; ask anyone whom I've pasted good and proper.  My life is one of prescription pills, testing my blood sugar, and trying not to get too fat for my pants; the payback is nobody, and I do mean nobody, f's with me.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Now I have a bit of a personal question. If you do not mind me asking. How did you go from a young Caucasian man to becoming a large heavyset black man?



Vitamins.


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## yak sao (Jan 6, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No.  Martial arts is about martial arts, not looking pretty in a Speedo.
> 
> I've changed a lot from this guy:
> 
> ...



Is that you on the left or right?


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 6, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Vitamins.



Then I will continue to take them then. I will take your advice about the judging the book by the cover. The reason why I asked this is because I visited a dojos website and they had many heavy men with black belts in their introduction picture, and I was curious if that meant something was off with their training. 

I have not trained with them yet so outside of that I have no judgements to make other than that picture i saw and the articles I read on the site.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 6, 2016)

yak sao said:


> Is that you on the left or right?


Yes.


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## Hanzou (Jan 6, 2016)




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## Spinedoc (Jan 6, 2016)

This is actually an interesting discussion.

I practice in physical medicine seeing spine patients all day. I frequently, at least several times daily, have to discuss a patients obesity and weight with them as part of their problem. In addition to my medical practice, I also have graduate education in sports medicine.

I have noticed black belts in multiple different arts that are heavy set or obese as well. I hypothesize that it is due to several factors. 

1: Probably the biggest is conservation of motion. While most martial artists realize that a black belt does not equate to "master" of anything, and in most arts, at least in Japan, a black belt is considered to only mean you have mastered the basics, and are ready to start actually learning (IE; you've learned basic math and algebra, and are now ready to start learning higher level math-calculus, etc.) 

What happens, is as you become more skilled and competent at a physical task, you become far more efficient and expend less energy doing the same task as you did when you were learning, practicing it. We see this in athletes, laborers, etc. Martial arts is no exception. 

2: Teaching. Many, if not the majority of dan level practitioners teach. This is not the same as practicing. While teaching, you are focusing on the student, and watching them, instructing them, etc. You are not really working hard physically, and many instructors will simply walk the mat or floor watching and correcting students. This is a low energy effort activity. 

3: Age, physiology all play a role, although not as big as genetics. IE; some older people will stay naturally thin and fit, while others will struggle. 

4: Diet, you cannot eat the way you did when you were 19-25. Unfortunately, most struggle with this the most. 

IOW, Black belts, especially older ones, are actually more susceptible to obesity for a variety of reasons than the average practicing martial artist.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 6, 2016)

Doc, my weight went from nearly 300 to 225 when I started martial arts at age 46. It also helped me keep my diabetes under control. I am an adult student who assist with teaching.


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## JP3 (Jan 6, 2016)

My 4th black belt (not 4th degree, my actual 4th one) was going gray and a bit worn and ratty around the edges, before some idiot dopehead broke the window out of my wife's car and stole both of our "workout" bags out of her back seat while we were having a muchly-earned cool-down session at Buffalow Wild Wings.  Hey.. we like it!.

Mind you, my original judo black belt was in there (I'd stopped wearing the taekwondo, hapkido and aikido ones at that time), and that irritated me greatly. But, also in the bag was a pair of very smelly knee braces, a even more smelly judogi (it was time to do the wash, yes), a required small container of the hot Tiger Balm (love that stuff), my container of "Judo Candy," (read, ibuprofen) and a spare T-shirt and pair of boxers.  Yes, I had come from judo class.
My wife's bag smelled even worse, if you can believe it. She had come from her "I wanna train to be a stripper" class, with all that heavy and stressful as all get out pole and core work, the hot yoga pants (Not Oh Boy! But, more like ohhh boy.... those smell...), and two pairs of special dancing shoes.

It REALLY irritated me, losing that belt.  Double wrap, nothing special. Size 6 as I like it to be a bit longer than typical for the wrapping key locks. It was all way broken in after about 10 years, too. One of the 1.5" width ones, no embroidery as that is way too fancy for judoka - I had to learn to put away the tendency towards extra accourtremente which my Korean arts had trained me.....

Wait... This is what you wanted me to respond with, right?

OOh, not the belt, but the practitioner.  I think you'll find that the old guys and gals all tend, just like anyone else as they age, to get a bit heavier, that's just life. Doesn't mean that they can't put the whomp on someone, it just doesn't take them as long to do it. Don't be misled by simple physical fitness.  Not that staying fit is a not desireable thing, it is, for many reasons, but in the end, unless you plan on jyust sparring for hours, it doesn't mean much in a typical combat environment where everything is usually decided in less than 20 seconds.

And I've yet to meet the person who is totally blown winded after a real combat environment, trained, in shape, or not. It's the nature of the thing.


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## Buka (Jan 6, 2016)

I knew this guy who had a really ugly dog. Cockeyed, crooked tail and couldn't fetch a stick if it was handed to him. But he was friendly, great with kids and a fierce protector of home and family.

I knew another guy with a dog that would make Rin Tin Tin jealous. But he bit, barked too much and crapped in the house.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 6, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Mmm I'm not going to pick out the sexism and prejudice in that statement as it is nearly midnight and I'm off to bed, but you may want to think about it a bit.


While it could entirely be sexist, it is entirely possible that he's only met two or three female black belts, and all of them happen to be in great shape. If that's the case, it's entirely reasonable that he'd extrapolate (possibly incorrectly, but that's only based on what I've seen) the idea that almost all female black belts are in much better shape than their male counterparts.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> While it could entirely be sexist, it is entirely possible that he's only met two or three female black belts, and all of them happen to be in great shape. If that's the case, it's entirely reasonable that he'd extrapolate (possibly incorrectly, but that's only based on what I've seen) the idea that almost all female black belts are in much better shape than their male counterparts.



I meant it was sexist against men rather than women..............

To be honest I think he's met only a few martial artists full stop.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 7, 2016)

What should a black belt look like? Well it should be black, made out of some kind of material, rectangular in shape, long enough to wrap around a person twice, possibly have white stripes on the end and some writing on it.


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## lklawson (Jan 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> When I picture a black belt I used to think of a very muscular guy, looks dangerous and in general a tough guy. Now that I am no longer 7 years old I learned that for many martial arts, black belt is an impressive feat, but it does not necessarily mean you are a master.
> 
> Still even though there is that fact, I see many black belts that look obese and out of shape. Is level of fitness not a requirement for most martial arts? I know in my old kenpo dojo it was to an extent, I mean you were not required to be Mr universe or something but you had to be on good shape to spar for awhile without getting too winded to continue.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? I am very interested to learn.


My thoughts?  I think you should read The Newbie Guide to Martial Arts Training by Kirk Lawson.  In it, it will describe this and many other concepts.

However, the fact is that a "black belt" doesn't look like anything but could look like everything.  Like Tez says, it's just a piece of cloth.  Like Photon says, it means something different to every system.

All that a belt, *ANY BELT*, does is recognize that the person wearing it has met or exceeded certain minimum standards of understanding of some set of physical skills.  Those physical skills may or may not require high levels of what you think is "physical fitness."  A black belt, or *ANY BELT*, in one system is somewhere between irrelevant and completely meaningless in any other system.

Oh, and, by the way, go tell any random Sumoka you feel like that he's fat and therefore sucks as a martial artist.  Be sure to take video and post it for our entertainment.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jan 7, 2016)

JP3 said:


> It was all way broken in after about 10 years, too.


Get a new belt.  Wash it in cold on "Heavy Wash" cycle.  Dry on "cool" or "permanent press" cycle with 5-10 Tennis balls and/or Racket Ball balls.  Lather, Rinse, Repeat until desired "break in" is achieved.  Works best with a "batch" of 5-10 belts.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jan 7, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> While it could entirely be sexist, it is entirely possible that he's only met two or three female black belts, and all of them happen to be in great shape. If that's the case, it's entirely reasonable that he'd extrapolate (possibly incorrectly, but that's only based on what I've seen) the idea that almost all female black belts are in much better shape than their male counterparts.


My Judo club meets at the YMCA.  I happen to really appreciate that fact.  There are lots of ladies in yoga pants doing yoga, pilates, or whatever who've been working really hard on their physique. 

Is it sexist of me to recognize that fact?  Well, maybe.  But, then again, recent research seems to indicate that everyone is actually (at least a little) sexist (and racist too) and it's just how good we are at hiding it and/or overcoming our instincts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2016)

lklawson said:


> My Judo club meets at the YMCA.  I happen to really appreciate that fact.  There are lots of ladies in yoga pants doing yoga, pilates, or whatever who've been working really hard on their physique.
> 
> Is it sexist of me to recognize that fact?  Well, maybe.  But, then again, recent research seems to indicate that everyone is actually (at least a little) sexist (and racist too) and it's just how good we are at hiding it and/or overcoming our instincts.
> 
> ...



Interesting that people thought I meant he was being sexist against the women when in fact I was meaning he was being sexist against the men.
I don't think appreciating anyone's physique is sexist, far from it. I do however think comparing one sex unfavourably against another without grounds is though.


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## lklawson (Jan 7, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Interesting that people thought I meant he was being sexist against the women when in fact I was meaning he was being sexist against the men.


Can you blame us?  If the suggestion of sexism is made, what's the percentage of those suggestions being sexism against men?  Maybe the percentages of sexism by gender are sexist themselves?  Now there's a research paper!  



> I don't think appreciating anyone's physique is sexist, far from it. I do however think comparing one sex unfavourably against another without grounds is though.




Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> What should a black belt look like? Well it should be black, made out of some kind of material, rectangular in shape, long enough to wrap around a person twice, possibly have white stripes on the end and some writing on it.



Not necessarily.... There are systems using single wrap belts (many ITF schools, for example), as well as those using various colors for the stripes. Our belts, for example, are embroidered in yellow.
Basically, it should look like whatever is customary at that particular school.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Ok different standards for different dojos. Thank you, my next question is should seeing many black belts from a dojo be out of shape be a red flag that this dojo is no good or should it not be an issue?


For me it would be an issue but not a primary issue. I would be much more concerned with how good their technique looked. I've seen dojos where the skill level of the black belts made me cringe. Personally I would steer clear of such dojos.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Interesting that people thought I meant he was being sexist against the women when in fact I was meaning he was being sexist against the men.
> I don't think appreciating anyone's physique is sexist, far from it. I do however think comparing one sex unfavourably against another without grounds is though.



His statement was sexist against both genders, and as Lawson stated, most of the time when people bring it up, they're referring to sexism against women and ignoring sexism against men.


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## Danny T (Jan 7, 2016)

*What should a black belt look like? *

Don't know about others but this is what one of my black belts looks like.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 7, 2016)

Well obviously sumo is a different story here :/. I am aware people can be good at the martial art no matter the weight. My post wasnt saying that they cannnot be good or even great, my concern was more about the intensity of the training within the dojo.


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## lklawson (Jan 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well obviously sumo is a different story here :/. I am aware people can be good at the martial art no matter the weight. My post wasnt saying that they cannnot be good or even great, my concern was more about the intensity of the training within the dojo.


The point is, as aptly proven by the sumoka, a person's visual appearance does not necessarily indicate the intensity of their training.  Sumoka are strong, fast, well trained, skilled, have great endurance, and look like a frigg'n beached whale.  They'll still lay the smack down.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well obviously sumo is a different story here :/. I am aware people can be good at the martial art no matter the weight. My post wasnt saying that they cannnot be good or even great, my concern was more about the intensity of the training within the dojo.



And that's the issue.  People confuse intensity with effectiveness.  I will tell you that I train intensively.  I train at my backyard, I train in the dojo, I even practice kata in the shower.































My point is this; how would anyone know what my 'intensity' level is by seeing me standing in a dojo in a gi with a kuru obi?

And likewise, just because I train constantly, that doesn't make me good.  Effective martial arts may or may not require a level of physical fitness.  You will never know what a person can or cannot do by looking at their waist size.


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## lklawson (Jan 7, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I even practice kata in the shower.


Thank you for not posting a picture of this!  Thank you thank you thank you thankyouthankyouthankyou...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 7, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Thank you for not posting a picture of this!  Thank you thank you thank you thankyouthankyouthankyou...
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



You'd need bleach for your eyes.  I can't even stand it and it's me.


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## Buka (Jan 7, 2016)

Here's what mine look like. A bunch of average looking folks in mismatched costumes.


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## GiYu - Todd (Jan 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well obviously sumo is a different story here :/. I am aware people can be good at the martial art no matter the weight. My post wasnt saying that they cannnot be good or even great, my concern was more about the intensity of the training within the dojo.


I wouldn't judge the quality of the dojo by the physical attractiveness of the people.  Our students range from 16 to 64, short to fat, stunningly attractive to 45yo me, and from 6-pack abs to 300 lbs round-bodies. 

All train hard, and all are very skilled for their given ranks.  At the dan level, it would be a costly mistake to pick a fight with any of them.  Even our higher kyu level's would devastate most people on the street.



lklawson said:


> My Judo club meets at the YMCA. I happen to really appreciate that fact. There are lots of ladies in yoga pants doing yoga, pilates, or whatever who've been working really hard on their physique.
> 
> Is it sexist of me to recognize that fact?


No... it just means you're showing appreciation for their hard work.    I had a 6-pack twenty years ago... I miss it.


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## Spinedoc (Jan 7, 2016)

Buka said:


> Here's what mine look like. A bunch of average looking folks in mismatched costumes.




Isn't the dude on the far right Master Ken???? Ameri-Dote????


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## Buka (Jan 7, 2016)

Spinedoc said:


> Isn't the dude on the far right Master Ken???? Ameri-Dote????



Tis, it tis! Taught him everything he doesn't know.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2016)

There are a few of ours.


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## Danny T (Jan 7, 2016)

Ooooh nice looking Black Belts.
Yours have nice little gold stripes and lettering.
Mine is just plain old black hand braided with tassels on each end.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 7, 2016)

I like how this thread turned out. It's cool to see all these pictures. Spin doc, who is the dude on the far right in the american flag GI? That guy looks so tacky it reaches awesome.

I would not want to fight that guy. I would rather salute.


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## donald1 (Jan 7, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No.  Martial arts is about martial arts, not looking pretty in a Speedo.
> 
> I've changed a lot from this guy:
> 
> ...


How nice. Usually people make them eat their teeth... not you. You let them bring them home for a keepsake.


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## donald1 (Jan 7, 2016)

(joke answer)

IMO, a someone at a black belt level is someone who has put years of hard work and dedication into what they do. You can see it not only on there uniform but in there techniques. you ca. Tell even if there a not wearing a belt or doing a basic form you can tell be watching them do the techniques and know. That person really knows what they are doing.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 7, 2016)

donald1 said:


> How nice. Usually people make them eat their teeth... not you. You let them bring them home for a keepsake.



I'm cool like that.


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## donald1 (Jan 7, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I even practice kata in the shower.



you practice kata in the shower? That must be one big shower... id probably try it but id be nervous thinking i might try go for a kick then slip and hit my head on the ground or try go get in a horse stance and accidently fall into a complete splits...


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 7, 2016)

donald1 said:


> you practice kata in the shower? That must be one big shower... id probably try it but id be nervous thinking i might try go for a kick then slip and hit my head on the ground or try go get in a horse stance and accidently fall into a complete splits...


.
It doesn't require a lot of room to do kata if you simply swap feet instead of stepping. Yeah, I leave the kicks out, but I know where they are.

Have you never done kata without stepping?  Sometimes I do that in the dojo. Sometimes I practice the stances and transitions without the punches, blocks, or kicks.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2016)

That's how Master Valdez and our KJN like them.


donald1 said:


> you practice kata in the shower? That must be one big shower... id probably try it but id be nervous thinking i might try go for a kick then slip and hit my head on the ground or try go get in a horse stance and accidently fall into a complete splits...



If you can't do a horse stance in the shower, you're not doing it right...


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## Buka (Jan 8, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I like how this thread turned out. It's cool to see all these pictures. Spin doc, who is the dude on the far right in the american flag GI? That guy looks so tacky it reaches awesome.
> 
> I would not want to fight that guy. I would rather salute.



The guy in the flag gi - his nickname in the gym is "Chink". Because if you have a chink in your armor he'll find it in thirty seconds. When people came to the gym to fight (we had an open door policy, everyone was welcome to come fight) they'd watch everyone first, they usually wanted to fight with Chink because he seemed the easiest. He's not fast, somewhat uncoordinated, and looks rather clumsy when he's fighting. He is the most difficult guy to fight in that whole group. He has exquisite timing, knows no fear, his left and right hooks seem to have radar and he'll sweep your legs out while he's hitting you.
He's been an undercover cop for many years and is one of the nicest people I know. 
Even if he is tacky.


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## Danny T (Jan 8, 2016)

Buka said:


> The guy in the flag gi - his nickname in the gym is "Chink". Because if you have a chink in your armor he'll find it in thirty seconds. When people came to the gym to fight (we had an open door policy, everyone was welcome to come fight) they'd watch everyone first, they usually wanted to fight with Chink because he seemed the easiest. He's not fast, somewhat uncoordinated, and looks rather clumsy when he's fighting. He is the most difficult guy to fight in that whole group. He has exquisite timing, knows no fear, his left and right hooks seem to have radar and he'll sweep your legs out while he's hitting you.
> He's been an undercover cop for many years and is one of the nicest people I know.
> Even if he is tacky.


Yeah, when it come to actually using your training don't be conventional be unpredictable.


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## crazydiamond (Jan 8, 2016)

Some black belts look like this guy - "old Al Bundy" also known as actor Ed O'neil, who got his black belt in BJJ around 62 years old after starting at 41.  Inspirational !


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## Langenschwert (Jan 8, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I dunno.  Why don't you get on the floor with them and see how many ways they can make you bleed?



 We had a gym bunny come to our club once. Strapping young lad, came to show the sword nerds up. We did a card workout that day, and he wilted comically. He said "you guys are crazy". Note the instructors were two 40-somethings who could each stand to lose some weight (I was one). On another night, we broke a fit young firefighter who couldn't handle the conditioning.


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## Buka (Jan 8, 2016)

"Gym Bunny". Bwahaha!


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 8, 2016)

I wonder if I would qualify for gym bunny?


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 8, 2016)

Langenschwert said:


> We had a gym bunny come to our club once. Strapping young lad, came to show the sword nerds up. We did a card workout that day, and he wilted comically. He said "you guys are crazy". Note the instructors were two 40-somethings who could each stand to lose some weight (I was one). On another night, we broke a fit young firefighter who couldn't handle the conditioning.



Did these people come back to continue their training?


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## Langenschwert (Jan 9, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Did these people come back to continue their training?



Oh gods no.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 9, 2016)

Langenschwert said:


> Oh gods no.



That's a shame.


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## Langenschwert (Jan 9, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> That's a shame.



It is and it isn't. They came in with attitude with intention of showing us how much more badass they were than us. They would have been difficult to teach, despite their obvious potential. They would have been the antithesis of "the empty cup". They would have thought that their cup was full of better stuff than we had. The firefighter made the mistake of trying to take on my co-instructor (a longtime MMA/BJJ practitioner) on the ground.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 9, 2016)

I had a similar experience, I was at the gym practicing on the heavy bag and this guy who was shirtless came up and asked "hey can you teach me some of that ****" ? I said I can teach you kenpo but I am no matter of it, only a student.

He said OK and I tried showing him stuff. He then ignored all the technique I showed him and proceeded to throw his own sloppy punches that were very telegraphed and terrible kicks.

I got the vibe he was just trying to look cool, he did the exact opposite though.


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## JR 137 (Jan 9, 2016)

Your post reminded me of a situation several years back...

A guy I worked with and I went to a bar for lunch.  We were talking about MA and training stuff (he was an American Kenpo black belt, I was a Kyokushin offshoot shodan.

A guy comes over and tells us karate is useless, and we're too old for kids' stuff (we were both in our early 20s).  We ignored him for a few minutes, then my friend issued a challenge.. 

He bet the guy $10 (who was about 6' tall) he could kick an ashtray off of his head without hitting him anywhere else.  My friend was 5'5.  The guy agreed.

My friend got into a sideways horse stance, let out a hilarious Bruce Lee shout, and side kicked him in the stomach.  He then stood over the guy and dropped $10 on him nonchalantly saying "I lose."

The guy picked himself up off the floor and walked away quietly.

Definitely not the best thing he could have done, but hilarious nonetheless.  If you knew him, you'd be amazed by his absurdity, but not surprised.  He was 'that guy.'


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 9, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Your post reminded me of a situation several years back...
> 
> A guy I worked with and I went to a bar for lunch.  We were talking about MA and training stuff (he was an American Kenpo black belt, I was a Kyokushin offshoot shodan.
> 
> ...



That's hilarious. Sounds like something I would have done.


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## Human Makiwara (Feb 3, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Your post reminded me of a situation several years back...
> 
> A guy I worked with and I went to a bar for lunch.  We were talking about MA and training stuff (he was an American Kenpo black belt, I was a Kyokushin offshoot shodan.
> 
> ...



I love this.


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## FriedRice (Feb 3, 2016)

There aren't many overly, overweight or very old people or women, who starts out and stays in Muay Thai....the truth is, they can't hang. The very overweight ones, if they can stick with it, will start losing the weight significantly and wouldn't want to go back to being fat...otherwise they drop out.  Those over 40's lasting longer than a year, is rare. 50's, then not even few months, if any. This is even before they're allowed to spar. 

Now there can be someone who trained a long time and have good skills but took some time off for whatever reasons.....got fat and came back, so they need to get back into it, but they already have the skills...so that's different. Like there are fat BJJ Black Belts, but they can still whoop 90% of everyone under their rank.


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## FriedRice (Feb 3, 2016)

Langenschwert said:


> We had a gym bunny come to our club once. Strapping young lad, came to show the sword nerds up. We did a card workout that day, and he wilted comically. He said "you guys are crazy". Note the instructors were two 40-somethings who could each stand to lose some weight (I was one). On another night, we broke a fit young firefighter who couldn't handle the conditioning.



It depends on what kind of conditioning you made him do. Like gym-bunnies who lifts weight would usually suck at heavy cardio and worse with agility.


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## Buka (Feb 3, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> There aren't many overly, overweight or very old people or women, who starts out and stays in Muay Thai....the truth is, they can't hang. The very overweight ones, if they can stick with it, will start losing the weight significantly and wouldn't want to go back to being fat...otherwise they drop out.  Those over 40's lasting longer than a year, is rare. 50's, then not even few months, if any. This is even before they're allowed to spar.
> 
> Now there can be someone who trained a long time and have good skills but took some time off for whatever reasons.....got fat and came back, so they need to get back into it, but they already have the skills...so that's different. Like there are fat BJJ Black Belts, but they can still whoop 90% of everyone under their rank.



Yes. No. Maybe. Once in a while. And sometimes. Except for....you know the guy, yeah, that one.

Thank God we straightened that out.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Feb 4, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> When I picture a black belt I used to think of a very muscular guy, looks dangerous and in general a tough guy. Now that I am no longer 7 years old I learned that for many martial arts, black belt is an impressive feat, but it does not necessarily mean you are a master.
> 
> Still even though there is that fact, I see many black belts that look obese and out of shape. Is level of fitness not a requirement for most martial arts? I know in my old kenpo dojo it was to an extent, I mean you were not required to be Mr universe or something but you had to be on good shape to spar for awhile without getting too winded to continue.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? I am very interested to learn.


I'm a sixth degree in AKJ-Kenpo and first degree black in Tracy Kenpo. I'm old. I'm 5'2", slim and small boned. When I was 28, I had my first black and I still looked like I couldn't punch my way out of a wet paper bag. Now at 72 I look even worse, yet my speed is still as fast as when young and my strength, well I workout with the Totalgym with extra twenty pounds on it and I also work out with 20 lb dumbbells. I have always taught adults, no kids, so I could teach everything. I still can take down large guys without hitting and I still can rock a punching bag. But I workout five days a week on weights and Kenpo, always have. Therefore, anyone you see can be an expert in a martial arts. Looks deceive you because of the movies. They always show strong tall guys that know martial arts. Now a days they call any black belt that is a celebrity, a Master. Actually thee are very few masters in martial arts. A true master is someone what accomplished something most black belts can't. Of course if a black belt is old  and can still teach, call him Master as a sign of respect that he devoted his whole life to teaching martial arts. Most students that achieve black belt status, stop practicing as the years go by. I am in the select few that has kept up his training throughout his entire life. To me, Kenpo martial arts is very interesting and I'm always learning something new. I have been lucky enough to have had many articles published in martial arts magazines. If I lived to be a hundred and ninety, I would never learn all there is to learn in martial arts.
Sifu


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## maryf (Oct 1, 2016)

most of the men i have seen with black belt are usually slim and their body shape is even not very visible, different from gym guys. i wonder if i have cleared out, what i want to say


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## moonhill99 (Oct 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> When I picture a black belt I used to think of a very muscular guy, looks dangerous and in general a tough guy. Now that I am no longer 7 years old I learned that for many martial arts, black belt is an impressive feat, but it does not necessarily mean you are a master.
> 
> Still even though there is that fact, I see many black belts that look obese and out of shape. Is level of fitness not a requirement for most martial arts? I know in my old kenpo dojo it was to an extent, I mean you were not required to be Mr universe or something but you had to be on good shape to spar for awhile without getting too winded to continue.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? I am very interested to learn.



Turn off the TV and  go to some schools!! For the most part  martial arts or fighters are not Hollywood textbook image. Yes Big, muscular, strong and tough looking guy.

In real world you get skinny people, mid range, overweight, really overweight so on.

It is Hollywood that shows that strong tough guy.

As for fitness and endurance it will determine the type of person and type of martial arts with real wrestling and MMA more people into the fitness and endurance than  say karate.

But there are some karate schools that are really big on fitness and endurance in class.

*Also you did not say where live. In state of Texas will have more overweight people than people from Beverly Hills, Hollywood,Venice, and Santa Monica.*

Also just because you are skinny does not mean your fitness and endurance is any where close to MMA level. If you never train or hardly train to work on fitness and endurance.

I have seen some overweight people having better shape than skinny people but they work on cardio ( not to level like say MMA or athletes) but they do cardio everyday it just they are overweight.


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## Headhunter (Oct 1, 2016)

A black belt shouldn't look like anything it's what their skills are. I've seen a wide range of overweight black belts and skinny black belts or muscular black belts It all comes down to their preference. Some will prefer to spend their elder years working on technical knowledge rather than working out or going running some would rather hit the gym. Me personally I'm an older guy now and I'm not a black belt in anything I got a brown in kenpo before I had enough of it's bs in my area but personally now I train simply to stay in shape so my training sessions are more fitness based rather than technical because at the end of the day I'm an old man now and having a fit strong body is more important to me living a longer better life than if I've got good stances or not. So maybe my techique isn't as good as it was because I simply don't care I still know how to throw with power and defend and I'm fairly sure I can put down some punk who wants my wallet and that's all that matters. I'm never getting in the ring again and I'm never going to be a head instructor so techique isn't as big a factor anymore. But that's my opinion another guy will be different to me there's no right or wrong answer to these things


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## frank raud (Oct 2, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Turn off the TV and  go to some schools!! For the most part  martial arts or fighters are not Hollywood textbook image. Yes Big, muscular, strong and tough looking guy.
> 
> In real world you get skinny people, mid range, overweight, really overweight so on.
> 
> ...


 Refresh my memory. What, exactly do you train in?


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## moonhill99 (Oct 2, 2016)

frank raud said:


> Refresh my memory. What, exactly do you train in?


*
Tez3 aka frank raud* I checked my post history and seems you want to stir up argument with me. No other members here at martialtalk are doing it but you Tez3.

I think you get more pleasure going on message board arguing than training in martial arts if you ever are training in martial arts.

For past number of threads and posts you seem to want to also hijack it the posts and threads arguing about some thing else.

Next it be some other world news and I will reply why, how or what happen and you say I'm criticizing the person or putting blame on the person.

Next it be some posts or thread fighting almost nude on ground and I will say  some people feel uncomfortable and not saying to me see doctor about it or there may be some small number people feel like it or homophobics people that I have seen first hand in work places. You say wired thread or post by OP.

You like arguing!! Or it does not sound like you get out house much or go on many message boards and know what the real world is like. Or even first hand experience talking about tragedy with people where you think spectating is really strange odd and bizarre.

If you kid or teen I can understand you don't have the world experience and understanding of discussion yet. As some one age 20 and up it simple you don't get out much or go to many message boards to get that experience and understanding that in tragedy people talk about the who,what,why and how. 

Unless you get pleasure by arguing.

Also using a sockpuppet account is silly.


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## frank raud (Oct 2, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> *Tez3 aka frank raud* I checked my post history and seems you want to stir up argument with me. No other members here at martialtalk are doing it but you Tez3.
> 
> I think you get more pleasure going on message board arguing than training in martial arts if you ever are training in martial arts.
> 
> ...


Wow. After ten years on this board, I've been found out as a sock puppet. All this time, my expertise has been Wado-ryu karate and this British MMA scene, yet somehow I have  managed to have an extensive jiu jitsu /judo background in Canada. It couldn't be possible that you would piss off more than one person. That would never happen. The obvious answer is that two senior posters on this board, with completely different styles of posting, are actually the same person, posting from two different continents. I do find it interesting that you can suddenly form a cohesive sentence. Are you someone else posting as Moonbeam?


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## Hyoho (Oct 3, 2016)

Ironbear24. Some forms of M.A. use the Dan-i system but do not wear a belt. Try fighting with an aged old Hachidan (8th) every day. The distance between 7 and eight can be as distant as 1 and 7. You might need to bring along some pampers if he gets annoyed with you.


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## frank raud (Oct 3, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Ironbear24. Some forms of M.A. use the Dan-i system but do not wear a belt. Try fighting with an aged old Hachidan (8th) every day. The distance between 7 and eight can be as distant as 1 and 7. You might need to bring along some pampers if he gets annoyed with you.


I'm not Ironbear, but according to Moonchild, I could be   What forms of MA use the Dan system but don't have belts?


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2016)

frank raud said:


> I'm not Ironbear, but according to Moonchild, I could be   What forms of MA use the Dan system but don't have belts?


Kendo?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> *Tez3 aka frank raud* I checked my post history and seems you want to stir up argument with me. No other members here at martialtalk are doing it but you Tez3.
> 
> I think you get more pleasure going on message board arguing than training in martial arts if you ever are training in martial arts.
> 
> ...


Or, perhaps, you simply read too much into a question.

*-Tez3* _no, that's not the right one_
*-FrankRaud *_not the right sig, either._
*-Gerry *_ah, that's the one I want!_


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> *Tez3 aka frank raud*


 

I can assure you that Tez and Frank are not the same person.

But wait, that's just what I would say if I was another sock puppet! 

No wait, there are people on the board who have met me in person and can testify that I am real.

But what if they are sock puppets too?!!

Okay, you've found me out. MartialTalk is just a performance art piece I created a while back. All the different members are me posting using different fictional identities.

You're the only person here who isn't one of my sock puppets.

...or are you? Search your mind. Can you actually remember details of a time before you started posting on MartialTalk? Are you certain? If the memories seem unclear, then you will realize the truth. You're just another creation of my imagination. Sorry to break the news to you.



moonhill99 said:


> I checked my post history and seems you want to stir up argument with me. No other members here at martialtalk are doing it but you Tez3.


I believe that has more to do with the fact that most of the rest of us have accepted the fact that you're not likely to ever start training martial arts or get a grasp of the topic well enough to say much meaningful in a martial arts forum and have thus decided to not engage with you until such time as you do decide to begin training.


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## lklawson (Oct 3, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I believe that has more to do with the fact that most of the rest of us have accepted the fact that you're not likely to ever start training martial arts or get a grasp of the topic well enough to say much meaningful in a martial arts forum and have thus decided to not engage with you until such time as you do decide to begin training.


Are you kidding?  He's better comedy than a 2016 U.S. Presidential Debate!


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Are you kidding?  He's better comedy than a 2016 U.S. Presidential Debate!


We don't know yet whether the debate was a scene in a tragedy or a comedy.   Time will tell.


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## Buka (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> We don't know yet whether the debate was a scene in a tragedy or a comedy.   Time will tell.



Probably a dramedy, which should be called a comma - because it will give us pause. And God knows what else.


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## JR 137 (Oct 3, 2016)

As long as we're sock-puppet busting...

@moonhill99 and Kehkorpz have quite a bit in common.  When one goes away, the other shows up.  And they've never conversed on here before.

Hmmm...

Stupid question, but what do you train in, Moonhill?  A while back you were asking about different arts and bashing a bunch of arts when you were looking for a school, just like Kehkorpz, but you now imply you train.  What are you training in?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> As long as we're sock-puppet busting...
> 
> @moonhill99 and Kehkorpz have quite a bit in common.  When one goes away, the other shows up.  And they've never conversed on here before.
> 
> Hmmm...


You mean one of them is Batman?


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## JR 137 (Oct 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> You mean one of them is Batman?



I was thinking more along the lines of the Michael and Janet Jackson controversy.  Batman is too cool to be implied here, and I'm even not a comic book guy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I was thinking more alone by the lines of the Michael and Janet Jackson controversy.  Batman is too cool to be implied here, and I'm even not a comic book guy.


I was imagining the Adam West version from TV when I was growing up. There was even a scene where he had Alfred wear the costume and use a voice modulator to make sure Wayne and Batman could show up at the same time once.


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## Hyoho (Oct 3, 2016)

frank raud said:


> I'm not Ironbear, but according to Moonchild, I could be   What forms of MA use the Dan system but don't have belts?


Kendo, Iaido, Batto Jutsu, Aikido, Aikijutsu, Kyudo, Jodo, Jukendo, Naginata jutsu and more.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Kendo, Iaido, Batto Jutsu, Aikido, Aikijutsu, Kyudo, Jodo, Jukendo, Naginata jutsu and more.


I don't know about the others, but I've never seen an Aikido school that didn't use colored belts. Mind you, I've only been in a few.


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## kuniggety (Oct 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know about the others, but I've never seen an Aikido school that didn't use colored belts. Mind you, I've only been in a few.



It had one "color" but the aikido school I briefly studied at in Okinawa had a brown belt. It was white belt (rokkyu - sankyu), brown belt (nikkyu & ikkyu), and then black (dan).

I spent some time on an Aikikai forum and it seemed inconsistent. Some used all white until black and some used a variety of colors.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You're the only person here who isn't one of my sock puppets.
> 
> ...or are you? Search your mind. Can you actually remember details of a time before you started posting on MartialTalk? Are you certain? If the memories seem unclear, then you will realize the truth. You're just another creation of my imagination. Sorry to break the news to you.


I remember a spider building her web outside my bedroom window.  She built her web all summer long.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I remember a spider building her web outside my bedroom window.  She built her web all summer long.


That is both entirely apropos, and one of the creepiest comments I've ever read.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That is both entirely apropos, and one of the creepiest comments I've ever read.


You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise.   The tortoise is laying on its back.   Its belly is baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over.   But it can't.  Not without your help.   But you're not helping.   Why is that?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2016)

Steve said:


> You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise.   The tortoise is laying on its back.   Its belly is baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over.   But it can't.  Not without your help.   But you're not helping.   Why is that?


I'll tell you about my mother...


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I'll tell you about my mother...


I'm sorry, FC.   The correct answer is, "what's a tortoise?"  Also acceptable would be, "which desert?"


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2016)

Steve said:


> I'm sorry, FC.   The correct answer is, "what's a tortoise?"  Also acceptable would be, "which desert?"


I just jumped straight to the punch line.


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## lklawson (Oct 5, 2016)

Steve said:


> You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise.   The tortoise is laying on its back.   Its belly is baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over.   But it can't.  Not without your help.   But you're not helping.   Why is that?


Roast turtle is delicious?  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Argus (Oct 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise.   The tortoise is laying on its back.   Its belly is baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over.   But it can't.  Not without your help.   But you're not helping.   Why is that?



I'm too busy trying to figure out why there's a turtle in the desert.
Must be a mirage. I need to stay hydrated.


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## Danny T (Oct 9, 2016)

Argus said:


> I'm too busy trying to figure out why there's a turtle in the desert.
> Must be a mirage. I need to stay hydrated.


Argus, FYI... tortoise... it is a tortoise not a turtle and there are species of tortoise that do live in deserts. So though you may need to stay hydrated which is an excellent idea it probably isn't a mirage.


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## marques (Oct 9, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> When I picture a black belt I used to think of a very muscular guy, looks dangerous and in general a tough guy. Now that I am no longer 7 years old I learned that for many martial arts, black belt is an impressive feat, but it does not necessarily mean you are a master.
> 
> Still even though there is that fact, I see many black belts that look obese and out of shape. Is level of fitness not a requirement for most martial arts? I know in my old kenpo dojo it was to an extent, I mean you were not required to be Mr universe or something but you had to be on good shape to spar for awhile without getting too winded to continue.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? I am very interested to learn.



I will be happy with a Black Belt that is not a Master, but masters his stuff. 

Recently I had the opportunity to spar with a Black Belt (when I should not even spar before a few weeks training there). She was confident with his stuff and the instructor was confident to put me in front of her. And while I was seeing several opportunities under a different ruleset, under their rules that was good (challenging) enough. They (including another high grade) master their stuff and I don't ask for more than that (the invincible tough guy - cough, cough..).

Then the level of fitness is relative to the style and age of practitioner. Perhaps it was at the level when he was promoted, if not currently.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Your post reminded me of a situation several years back...
> 
> A guy I worked with and I went to a bar for lunch.  We were talking about MA and training stuff (he was an American Kenpo black belt, I was a Kyokushin offshoot shodan.
> 
> ...



Blew milk out of my sinuses, laughing at this.... laughed for 2 minutes.

Thank you.

 "I don't know why he saved my life. Maybe in those last moments he loved life more than he ever had before. Not just his life - anybody's life; my life. All he'd wanted were the same answers the rest of us want. Where did I come from? Where am I going? How long have I got? All I could do was sit there and watch him die."


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That is both entirely apropos, and one of the creepiest comments I've ever read.




They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response... Shall we continue?


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2016)

TSDTexan said:


> "I don't know why he saved my life. Maybe in those last moments he loved life more than he ever had before. Not just his life - anybody's life; my life. All he'd wanted were the same answers the rest of us want. Where did I come from? Where am I going? How long have I got? All I could do was sit there and watch him die."



"All those moments will be lost in time, like tears...in...rain. Time to die."


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 11, 2016)

When did this thread turn into a Blade Runner quote-a-thon?

At least now I know what kind of people I'm dealing with on MT....


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> At least now I know what kind of people I'm dealing with on MT....


Replicants?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2016)

What we were promised...



 

 

 

 

 


What we actually have been given...


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Replicants?


More human than human is our goal, Tony


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## drop bear (Oct 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise.   The tortoise is laying on its back.   Its belly is baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over.   But it can't.  Not without your help.   But you're not helping.   Why is that?



Pretty sure the correct answer is to kill the guy and then get chased around by Harrison ford.


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