# Do you use the figure eight pattern with your fists?



## geezer (Apr 19, 2021)

This is coming off another thread where a well respected forum member was advocating following up a hook punch with a back-fist using the same hand, linking the two.

My response was that in the Escrima I train, we frequently use such a combination when we link our #1 an #2 strikes in a figure-eight pattern, either entering with an angle 1 hook or hammer-fist, and following through with an angle 2 hammer-fist, chop or backfist with the same arm. I find it very useful. Surprisingly, few people seemed to recognize this classic combination. I was surprized.

So in your art, do you train your figure-eight striking patterns similarly with empty hands as well as weapons, ...or not? Any thoughts?


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 19, 2021)

Same as you.  TMA Karate *power* + FMA *flow* = More effective and flexible combat art.  Bridging linear moves with a circular one allows a change of direction without sacrificing momentum (and thus power,) though this concept is lost in some karate dojo.   Combining the best of these two arts, power and flow, works well together.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Apr 20, 2021)

Seems pretty common to teach and do things like that from what i have seen.   A cross punch is called that because you used to go over someones arm as they punched at you and hit them over their own arm.    So id presume one of the main ways to faciliate that would be to move their arm down with your punching arm.    (i think thats in the vein of this concept)


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## drop bear (Apr 20, 2021)

I do like a figure 8 punch.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 20, 2021)

geezer said:


> So in your art, do you train your figure-eight striking patterns similarly with empty hands as well as weapons, ...or not? Any thoughts?


In long fist, the hook punch is a 45 degree down punch. When my opponent dodges under my hook punch, I can swing the same arm back 45 degree downward (a figure-eight) and hit on the other side of his head.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 20, 2021)

A lot of figure-eight striking pattern exist in this clip.


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## Shatteredzen (Apr 20, 2021)

geezer said:


> This is coming off another thread where a well respected forum member was advocating following up a hook punch with a back-fist using the same hand, linking the two.
> 
> My response was that in the Escrima I train, we frequently use such a combination when we link our #1 an #2 strikes in a figure-eight pattern, either entering with an angle 1 hook or hammer-fist, and following through with an angle 2 hammer-fist, chop or backfist with the same arm. I find it very useful. Surprisingly, few people seemed to recognize this classic combination. I was surprized.
> 
> So in your art, do you train your figure-eight striking patterns similarly with empty hands as well as weapons, ...or not? Any thoughts?



 By figure 8, I'm assuming you mean sinawali? I learned/teach a sinawali pattern open hand, it's very good for teaching the whole kali/flow concept and pairs very well when teaching grappling. For weapons/unarmed, I learned/teach Stick, knife then open hand, the stick is the most forgiving technique wise, the knife requires more thought and practice for blade angles, hand positioning, etc and the open hand stuff is by far the most complicated but by that point the student has drilled so much on stick/knife they tend to pick it up quick.


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## geezer (Apr 20, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> By figure 8, I'm assuming you mean sinawali?



Sure. Most _sinawali_ (weaving) patterns begin with some form of figure-eight (ocho-ocho). But a figure-eight is just that. A simple linking of two strikes in a continuous flow. Maybe a #1 and #2 driving downward, or a #3 and #4 hitting across, side to side, or a diagonal or reverse eight, etc. (numbering methods vary, especially after the first 5 strikes).

In regards to _sinawali _patterns, most everybody in FMA has seen some version of "Six-Heaven" or "Heaven and Earth", and there are much more elaborate variations out there. But in my experience, the more elaborate and complex the pattern, _the less applicable it is to fighting_. So we emphasize the really simple, direct stuff. Like a criss-cross figure-eight (equis-equis) hitting with a #1 and #2 with the right, then repeating the same hits with the left.

Another, even more fundamental combination is the "Four-count Figure-eight. In the really old video below (from the early 90s) my old teacher demonstrates some empty-hand applications of the basic four-count pattern:


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## Flying Crane (Apr 21, 2021)

To answer the initial question, I am having a hard time coming up with an example in my system, of a deliberate training of a figure-eight pattern, as a foundational approach to flow.  I can come up with examples where I can see such the concept in action with certain combinations.  But I cannot recall a single case where we said “ok now, let’s work on our flow with this figure-eight pattern drill...”


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## geezer (Apr 22, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> To answer the initial question, I am having a hard time coming up with an example in my system, of a deliberate training of a figure-eight pattern, as a foundational approach to flow....



In the OP, I didn't make any reference to "flow". Other posters, like _Isshinryuronin _did. My interest is in whether you use that movement with empty hands to make functional fighting combinations. My guess is that Tibetan Crane would make heavy use of the figure eight movement? Heck, I've even found places to use it in something as supposedly linear as Wing Chun. Admittedly, in WC, the figure-eight is very small and tight, but the energy is there.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 23, 2021)

geezer said:


> In the OP, I didn't make any reference to "flow". Other posters, like _Isshinryuronin _did. My interest is in whether you use that movement with empty hands to make functional fighting combinations. My guess is that Tibetan Crane would make heavy use of the figure eight movement? Heck, I've even found places to use it in something as supposedly linear as Wing Chun. Admittedly, in WC, the figure-eight is very small and tight, but the energy is there.


Then the answer is a simple yes, I can find it In Combinations.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 23, 2021)

In kali: yes. In Kempo: yes. In sambo: sort of. There are definitely grappling movements that go through a figure 8, though I don't know if I would classify them that way. More just looping around a body part. In kickboxing, I can't think of any off the top of my head.


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## drop bear (Apr 23, 2021)

I came down with a cold. So no sparring for me.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 26, 2021)

geezer said:


> This is coming off another thread where a well respected forum member was advocating following up a hook punch with a back-fist using the same hand, linking the two.
> 
> My response was that in the Escrima I train, we frequently use such a combination when we link our #1 an #2 strikes in a figure-eight pattern, either entering with an angle 1 hook or hammer-fist, and following through with an angle 2 hammer-fist, chop or backfist with the same arm. I find it very useful. Surprisingly, few people seemed to recognize this classic combination. I was surprized.
> 
> So in your art, do you train your figure-eight striking patterns similarly with empty hands as well as weapons, ...or not? Any thoughts?



Hey !! Geezer !! How are you??

In the Modern Arnis I teach, the upper cut and back hand is Figure 8 empty hand. 
The one you reference is part of our Flow or follow thru striking and is 1 & 2 (forehand & backhand) and we call this the reverse figure 8. 
Might be counter intuitive, yet the #1 & #2 are taught and the student learns it with out a special name. 
The Figure as we call it is called out to give them a place to learn both and not get (as) confused

Miss our chats


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## Shatteredzen (Apr 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> This is coming off another thread where a well respected forum member was advocating following up a hook punch with a back-fist using the same hand, linking the two.
> 
> My response was that in the Escrima I train, we frequently use such a combination when we link our #1 an #2 strikes in a figure-eight pattern, either entering with an angle 1 hook or hammer-fist, and following through with an angle 2 hammer-fist, chop or backfist with the same arm. I find it very useful. Surprisingly, few people seemed to recognize this classic combination. I was surprized.
> 
> So in your art, do you train your figure-eight striking patterns similarly with empty hands as well as weapons, ...or not? Any thoughts?



Ok after reading this again I understand, you are talking about the Wing Chun "over under" figure 8, not the sinawali pattern from Escrima/Kali. You can use palm strikes from the sinawali to try to break or overcome the guard and it's helpful in turning the opponent to change their angle/off balance them/open them up. What you are talking about is Wing Chun and it comes from the machine gun punching. Yes it works, surprisingly well, people don't expect that rolling backhand to come over the top of their guard as you pull it down. If you are doing it right you clear the guard and lunge in and you get the power generated from your legs and forward momentum also. The Wing Chun "figure 8" is more forward to back, the Kali one is more side to side, you can make both work as part of your open hand stuff.


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## geezer (Apr 27, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Ok after reading this again I understand, you are talking about the Wing Chun "over under" figure 8, not the sinawali pattern from Escrima/Kali.



...er _no_, the figure pattern in the FMA I practice can be applied in many directions such as linked overhand strikes (#1 and #2), side to side strikes (#3 and #4), reversed or upward linked striking (#8 and #9 in our system) and diagonals (such as #1 and #8,  or #2 and #9), or reversed diagonals, or a mix of any of the above.

Wing Chun does not typically use figure-eight patterns, but most often favors overhand circling (elliptical punching) ...although there are exceptions. As you may have guessed, I'm not a big fan of overly rigid rules!


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## Shatteredzen (Apr 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> ...er _no_, the figure pattern in the FMA I practice can be applied in many directions such as linked overhand strikes (#1 and #2), side to side strikes (#3 and #4), reversed or upward linked striking (#8 and #9 in our system) and diagonals (such as #1 and #8,  or #2 and #9), or reversed diagonals, or a mix of any of the above.
> 
> Wing Chun does not typically use figure-eight patterns, but most often favors overhand circling (elliptical punching) ...although there are exceptions. As you may have guessed, I'm not a big fan of overly rigid rules!



The sinawali is a specific set of six strikes, you can vary them however you want to change the direction of the strikes but I have no idea what numbers you are referring to.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> Wing Chun does not typically use ...


The more that we may have discussed the WC system, the more that we may hear comment such as, "WC does not do ...". Why?

So far we have the following:

WC doesn't use

- figure-8 pattern.
- arm wrap.
- strategy.
- ...


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## geezer (Apr 27, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> The sinawali is a specific set of six strikes, you can vary them however you want to change the direction of the strikes but I have no idea what numbers you are referring to.



FYI: There are countless _sinawali_ or "weaving" patterns in FMA (Eskrima/Arnis/Kali). The one you are referring to is probably the very popular "6 Heaven" pattern used in the Inosanto/LaCosta system and countless other systems as well. The _figure-eight pattern_ is a more basic movement that can be done with either one or two sticks and is contained within sinawali patterns.

Just to clarify, I'm posting a brief excerpt from an old DVD by GM Latosa showing the very simple _four-count sinawali_ he taught along with other figure-eight patterns ....with double-stick in this case. Watch this, if you care to, and then go back up to the previously posted _empty-hands figure-eight _video and you will see what I'm talking about.

GM Latosa back in the early 90s demonstrating applications of double-stick figure eight movementshttps:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-7sCKpHxmg&ab_channel=wt31313


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## geezer (Apr 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The more that we may have discussed the WC system, the more that we may hear comment such as, "WC does not do ...". Why? So far we have the following:
> WC doesn't use
> - figure-8 pattern.
> - arm wrap.
> - strategy....



There are some "kinda-sorta" figure-eight movements or combinations in WC, but it's not typical. You have to remember that WC is a _minimalist _approach, especially when compared to the frankly _baroque _esthetic of most TCMA. WC stands out for trying to do the most with the least, rather than including a bit of everything.


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## geezer (Apr 28, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> .... I have no idea what numbers you are referring to.


 _No problem._ Most systems of FMA use numbered systems to describe striking angles, often with a total of 12 strikes being identified and numbered.  And many use the same numbers for _the first five angles. _But after that they diverge.

I use the numbering system that I trained with the DTE (Direct Torres Escrima) group here. There is no reason why you would know those, which is why I also included physical descriptions of the strikes. When I trained with Rene Latosa, he never bothered with any numbering system. He  just described or else _demonstrated_ the strike he had in mind.


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## Shatteredzen (Apr 28, 2021)

geezer said:


> _No problem._ Most systems of FMA use numbered systems to describe striking angles, often with a total of 12 strikes being identified and numbered.  And many use the same numbers for _the first five angles. _But after that they diverge.
> 
> I use the numbering system that I trained with the DTE (Direct Torres Escrima) group here. There is no reason why you would know those, which is why I also included physical descriptions of the strikes. When I trained with Rene Latosa, he never bothered with any numbering system. He  just described or else _demonstrated_ the strike he had in mind.


Gotcha, also, that explains why I have seen people from other schools practicing a different pattern than mine, we referred to the 6 heaven (although I have heard the term) as "the six strike method" I saw a guy do an eight count one but it looked clunky and when we did some stick to stick with him my fifth and sixth strike would routinely pass through his guard because of the difference in angles so I just discounted it as an oddity.


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