# Please help me decide between these three Martial Arts schools in my area



## GuitaristDog87 (Feb 11, 2022)

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


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## Martial D (Feb 11, 2022)

Well any of the three would be fine for the latter two reasons. But if it's actual skill in fighting you want, Find an MMA club


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 11, 2022)

Can you post websites of the places? Videos of them sparring? With just the information that you're posting all you'll get is biased posts about people's favorite arts. 

If you can't post/find those, the biggest things will be class-time and budget, as if one school is while you're unavailable, or out of your price range you won't end up going at all in a few months, which is worse than spending more time at another school. 

If those are the same as well, go to each and see which one has an environment you like. As an example, the shotokan karate place could be filled with people doing just tournament karate, which wouldn't fit with your goals on self-defense, or the kyokushin might be a very "macho" place that tries to tear you down when you start/bully you, which wouldn't fit your self-esteem goals (I chose those two styles as they were the first two you mentioned, not suggesting that will be your experience with either).


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## GuitaristDog87 (Feb 11, 2022)

Kyokushin Fight Club | Martial Arts | Hatfield, PA
					

Full contact Kyokushin Karate Dojo serving the BucksMont & Philadelphia Area. Get tough today with the strongest karate on Earth! Located in Hatfield, PA.




					www.kyokushinphilly.com
				




Shuto Karate Sellersville – Delaware Valley's Original Shotokan Club       This is the Shotokan dojo close to me

The Tang Soo Do one is "Creekside Martial Arts' on Facebook


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2022)

Visit each school and watch how the classes are taught.  Do this several times.  Talk to the students to see what they like or dont like about it.  Talk to the instructor to see if you are comfortable working with him/her.  Go with the school in which you feel the most comfortable in the environment.   At this stage, that is the most important, and is the only real criteria that matters.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 12, 2022)

I would define what qualifies as self defense. Do you want to avoid trouble or know how to fight.  These are the same thing.  If you want to know how to fight using the techniques you are learning then you need to find a school that spars frequently.
There's no way around that. They don't have to spar hard but they have spar.  Sparring is practice for learning how to use techniques that you will depend on in a real fight.

If you just want to feel safe then focus on being good with the basics and learn a lot of non-physical self-defense like how to scan your environment which boils down to becoming more aware of your environment.

I'm not sure MMA is the best choice for self-defense.  We see more stories about MMA fighting outside of the ring than any other system. Much of which is the opposite of what you would do with a self defense mindset. 

MMA will give you the most sparring time but it may not satisfy your other interest and concerns.  When it comes to your health concerns the other martial arts systems will do a better job with satisfying that.  

Define what you want then ask the teacher of the school if the can provide that.  Some teachers can fight with the techniques others cannot.  For fighting finding a teacher who can use what they teach will make your learning experience more enriched.  There will be less to figure out.


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## Brian King (Feb 12, 2022)

Welcome to the forum GuitaristDog87!
You listed three reasons you wish to take martial arts, that is awesome. Do not be surprised that as you train, your reasons for training will change and evolve as your journey does. As our reasons to train mature with our journey - the original reasons for training become much less important. So I do not think that particular style search is that important.  I would not be too worried about this style vs that one. More important than particular style is that the instructor(s) and you connect and that they can reach you and teach you. Then do you like the students. For many, training becomes social, almost family like. You will be spending many many hours with these folks. Make sure they are the type of folks you would benefit from having in your life. Go visit each school close to you and see how the vibe there feels to you. Visit multiple days (Mondays may train differently than Fridays).  If possible bring your significant other, not so much to also train (although cool if that happens) but our significant others often have there insane-radar on when ours is muted. Check the level of contact found in the school. There should be contact in my opinion but the level and intensity should be able to be managed and comfortable (or nearly comfortable, being pushed and pulled past comfort is good). Make sure that you are comfortable with the level of contact in each school. Is it ok for you to show up at work with a block eye or broken arm?  In the beginning of your journey, the closer the school the better. The closer school is easier to get to and train. Further away and the excuses not to go this or that night multiple in strength.

I am of the opinion that it is better to start training this week rather than to take months and months trying to find the perfect school. It isn't out there. Start training, you will not only gain techniques and methods but you will start to gain and earn perspective. The first school that you train at might last you your remaining years, it might just be the first school of many. It might be a lousy school in hindsight yet even at that you will still gain. At 35 years old you likely have enough common sense to be able to avoid the worse schools and can have decades of good training and experiences ahead of you.

Again, welcome to the forum. I look forward to reading about your journey. Such an exciting point of time of your journey. 

Regards
Brian King
​


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## jks9199 (Feb 12, 2022)

Lots of ways to choose.  All of them are good.  All of them are bad.  I'm with Brian; rather than hunt forever..  try one out.  IF they push huge contracts, try another.  You won't know until you try how you like the place.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 12, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Kyokushin Fight Club | Martial Arts | Hatfield, PA
> 
> 
> Full contact Kyokushin Karate Dojo serving the BucksMont & Philadelphia Area. Get tough today with the strongest karate on Earth! Located in Hatfield, PA.
> ...


So keep in mind, this is purely from a quick glance at each, I have not trained any of them-in fact have not trained any of the styles. Just my thoughts as I was looking at their sites:


Kyokushin: the school seems to be true to what I think of when I hear kyokushin. Seems like they focus very much on attack and hitting hard, not so much on defending yourself. Kind of "Beat the other person to submission" attitude. Doesn't say anything about the attitude of the people there, just know it's a very rough style and you'll likely be doing a lot of conditioning. I say try it out, but if you don't like it, don't rule out martial arts, or even striking martial arts, because of that. 

Shotokan: It's tough to tell since they use the same template a lot of dojos seem to use. I don't blame them for that-it's good marketing and a lot easier than learning how to make your own website, but doesn't give much insight as to the school itself. The one thing they do have, is videos in what looks like a video blog: Some videos from the Gallery of the Arts demo (9/15/19) – Shuto Karate Sellersville
There are two videos on that, that make me concerned in terms of effective self defense: This one they seem like one person's just attacking and I don't really see the point of training fake bashing someone's head with no resistance, or how it would be impressive for a demo, and this one where it's just way too overly compliant, and very fluid in their compliance. That said, both of those are demos and not really examples of what they actually do, so take my criticisms with a heavy grain of salt. Still worth checking out, just look to see if the upper belts are overly compliant when training with each other (don't be alarmed if they're overly compliant with you-that's expected in a lot of schools since you're basically a baby your first year or so).

Creekside Martial Arts, if they're the one I found that practices tang soo do in Chalfont, PA, closed in August 2020. 

That said, give both (open) schools a shot, and see what you like. If you don't like others, I found a bunch of other schools near those two, in lansdale and souderton and other neighboring towns, so there's definitely no shortage of finding one that you like.


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## GuitaristDog87 (Feb 13, 2022)

Haha my bad, I didn't pick up on Creekside Martial Arts closing over a year ago. Thank you for the replies everyone, I'll broaden my horizon for more options where I live and keep you posted.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 13, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Haha my bad, I didn't pick up on Creekside Martial Arts closing over a year ago. Thank you for the replies everyone, I'll broaden my horizon for more options where I live and keep you posted.


Keep in mind what the other posters said-it's more important that you start. We've had people come on here and spend a year looking for a school everyone approves of/that "perfect fit", meanwhile that was a whole year that they could have been training in _something, _but ended up doing nothing.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 13, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> We've had people come on here and spend a year looking for a school everyone approves of/that "perfect fit", meanwhile that was a whole year that they could have been training in _something, _but ended up doing nothing.


A year looking for a school?  That's insane.  There's only so much a person can tell from the outside without any interaction with a school.


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## lklawson (Feb 14, 2022)

Judo.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Yokozuna514 (Feb 14, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


Osu, GuitaristDog87.   Welcome to the forum.    I actually train and teach Kyokushin so I was interested in your post.   I went to check out the website and found out that Kyokushin Philly is being led by a young man who may be a Shodan (wasn't quite able to determine from the places I looked) who is very much interested in the Knockdown aspects of Kyokushin.   He looks to be in shape so I would echo the comments about conditioning being a top priority in this school.   He also seems to have some TKD experience but I think his main focus is on Knockdown for the moment.   Kyokushin is a great MA for increasing your fitness level and learning about continuous sparring.   It is also a great community where most of the people enjoy meeting and training with each other regardless of the country you come from.  I often pack my dogi when I travel and contact a local school so that I don't have to miss any training sessions.   Most dojo operators don't mind or even enjoy having guests from time to time.

By all means though, check out all the schools and get a free trial to see if you enjoy the classes, instructors and people training at the dojo.  If you plan on spending a lot of time training at a place, you should enjoy all the aspects that come with it.   Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide to do.


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## Unkogami (Feb 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ....
> 
> MMA will give you the most sparring time but it may not satisfy your other interest and concerns.  When it comes to your health concerns the other martial arts systems will do a better job with satisfying that.
> .....


What makes you say that?


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 14, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> What makes you say that?


Because if he's interested in forms and weapons then MMA is not going to satisfy that.  If he's interested in earning a belt rank then MMA isn't going to satisfy that.  There may be things that he likes about TMA that don't exist in MMA.  I can only assume this because he didn't originally ask about MMA gyms.

A lot of TMA schools are health focused, both mentally and physically.  Some almost focus on it too much and as a result students rarely get the physical conditioning that's needed to do to many of the techniques that are taught..  I hear one guy talk about how happy he was that his daughter was training at a school that didn't do tough exercises.  That school sold him on the idea that jumping, running, and moving around was bad on the knees for a 6 year old girl.


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## Steve (Feb 14, 2022)

Well, to the OP's questions, lots of good advice.  If you're really interested in Karate, go for it.  If you're looking for self defense, maybe worth being open to other alternatives as well.  



JowGaWolf said:


> If you just want to feel safe then focus on being good with the basics and learn a lot of non-physical self-defense like how to scan your environment which boils down to becoming more aware of your environment.


Really, if you want to simply feel safe, go with a system that feeds your preconceived notions of what martial arts should be.   A ninja self defense expert with a good sales pitch can be excellent for folks who simply want to "feel safe".   Feeling safe need not be related to reality in any way.  It's purely emotional.  



JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure MMA is the best choice for self-defense.  We see more stories about MMA fighting outside of the ring than any other system. Much of which is the opposite of what you would do with a self defense mindset.


I really wish this data were actually available.  It would be very helpful if we could tell when folks get their butts kicked whether they had martial arts training.  Alas, we don't.  What you're reacting to, though, is that folks who train in MMA are often obviously trained fighters.  Like boxers, you can tell they've had some training.  When some other styles fight, their inexperience makes it difficult to tell that they have any training at all.

But man, would it be great if law enforcement routinely captured this information.  We would get some real data on how effective various styles are for self defense, and perhaps put this debate to bed.  



JowGaWolf said:


> MMA will give you the most sparring time but it may not satisfy your other interest and concerns.  When it comes to your health concerns the other martial arts systems will do a better job with satisfying that.


This is an odd comment.  Are you talking spiritual health?  Like chi stuff?  You would be hard pressed to find more physically healthy people than the typical person at an MMA school.  



JowGaWolf said:


> Define what you want then ask the teacher of the school if the can provide that.  Some teachers can fight with the techniques others cannot.  For fighting finding a teacher who can use what they teach will make your learning experience more enriched.  There will be less to figure out.


Agreed.  A qualified teacher seems like the bare minimum, but we might be surprised.


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## Steve (Feb 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Because if he's interested in forms and weapons then MMA is not going to satisfy that.  If he's interested in earning a belt rank then MMA isn't going to satisfy that.  There may be things that he likes about TMA that don't exist in MMA.  I can only assume this because he didn't originally ask about MMA gyms.
> 
> A lot of TMA schools are health focused, both mentally and physically.  Some almost focus on it too much and as a result students rarely get the physical conditioning that's needed to do to many of the techniques that are taught..  I hear one guy talk about how happy he was that his daughter was training at a school that didn't do tough exercises.  That school sold him on the idea that jumping, running, and moving around was bad on the knees for a 6 year old girl.


Not wanting to train MMA is one thing.  Nothing wrong with having a personal preference.  If you want to train weapons, find an escrima school.  

But what you're saying above about mental and physical health makes zero sense.


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## Unkogami (Feb 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Because if he's interested in forms and weapons then MMA is not going to satisfy that.  If he's interested in earning a belt rank then MMA isn't going to satisfy that.  There may be things that he likes about TMA that don't exist in MMA.  I can only assume this because he didn't originally ask about MMA gyms.
> 
> A lot of TMA schools are health focused, both mentally and physically.  Some almost focus on it too much and as a result students rarely get the physical conditioning that's needed to do to many of the techniques that are taught..  I hear one guy talk about how happy he was that his daughter was training at a school that didn't do tough exercises.  That school sold him on the idea that jumping, running, and moving around was bad on the knees for a 6 year old girl.


You specifically mentioned health. I dare say MMA training would get him more fit than most TMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> Feeling safe need not be related to reality in any way. It's purely emotional.


That's true.



Steve said:


> I really wish this data were actually available. It would be very helpful if we could tell when folks get their butts kicked whether they had martial arts training. Alas, we don't. What you're reacting to, though, is that folks who train in MMA are often obviously trained fighters. Like boxers, you can tell they've had some training. When some other styles fight, their inexperience makes it difficult to tell that they have any training at all.


Most TMA schools that I know of that focus (with exceptions) are more likely to work on deescalation method than punching someone in the face.  One of the things we hear in TMA schools is "we only teach for defense."  One of the drills that's common is that that one student punches me and I must react.  I cannot do anything until the student punches.  The martial arts is almost taught from the perspective some "Someone must attack me first before I can fight back."

We can pull up tons of TMA videos that start off with "When A does this, then I react and do that."  I understand why they say this to children but I think they take it too far sometimes and as a result it makes it difficult to fight offensively with Martial Arts.  Some even make kids take pledges that they will only use martial arts to defend themselves..



Steve said:


> But man, would it be great if law enforcement routinely captured this information. We would get some real data on how effective various styles are for self defense, and perhaps put this debate to bed.


If people are being programmed to only used Martial Arts for self-defense, then they are less likely to get into fights.  The are also more likely to use other methods to deal with violent conflict.  That whole concept of winning a fight without fighting, runs deep in some schools.



Steve said:


> This is an odd comment. Are you talking spiritual health? Like chi stuff? You would be hard pressed to find more physically healthy people than the typical person at an MMA school.


Yep. spiritual health, chi, (qui), weapons, lion dance, forms (kata), forms competition, point sparring, weapons sparring, lessons on internal vs external, soft vs hard. Traditional training methods.. For the physical part you can't beat age or the problems that come with it.  As much as we like to bang things out we can't always do that. There will come a time when our training will change, unless you talking about the non-fighting parts of MMA.  I just don't see 80 large group of 80 year old dudes in the MMA ring.   But I can find a large number of 80 year old people practicing there TMA system staying active and being healthy. I don't see the TMA people getting in to the ring either.  At some point of the time, it becomes necessary to stop banging the body out like young people do.

If I want to be as fit as possible then I have to do it in a way that my body isn't sustaining unhealthy damage. Randy Couture talks about the similar things @9:27 He mentions about how his body holding up allowed him to stay as active as he has been able to do.   I think a few months after this, interview he had a heart attack..


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> Not wanting to train MMA is one thing.  Nothing wrong with having a personal preference.  If you want to train weapons, find an escrima school.
> 
> But what you're saying above about mental and physical health makes zero sense.


No because it doesn't make zero sense.  There are different things that can be done for mental and physical health.  Alot of the TMA systems have things about health and mental well being that you aren't going to find in a MMA gym.  As a matter of fact when MMA fighters want that aspect of it, they go outside of MMA and do things like Yoga.  Conor McGregor does Yoga.  Yoga is not MMA

You can't get what you get out of Yoga by doing MMA.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 14, 2022)

Welcome.  There has already been some good advise given and some not so good advise so I wont repeat any of that.  I just wanted to say welcome and hopefully you find something that makes you happy.  Ive bounced around alot staying at different styles for a year others for 10+.  Sometimes 2 different styles at the same time.  I just enjoy leaning new stuff not so much worried about mastering anything or using it for self defense.  Im back around to my second or maybe third time doing BJJ as well as something new Ive never tried called Raw Combat.  I say all that to say dont feel you are stuck with whatever you pick now.  You can always try something new later.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 14, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> You specifically mentioned health. I dare say MMA training would get him more fit than most TMA.







Just saying.  You get out of your training what you put into it. 






TMA isn't the issue in terms of fitness.  We can't blame the system for people who only want to show up for classes once a week or for people who only want fast black belts.  There will be some who are slack and some who aren't.  Even if the OP joins an MMA gym, it's up to him to put in the work.  If he doesn't put in the work then he'll be like other people who don't put in the work.   It's easy to tell who puts in the work.  It shows on their bodies and in their skills.  With the exception of those who put in the work and then didn't maintain for whatever reason.  But if you put in the work, then it will show.


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## Unkogami (Feb 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just saying.  You get out of your training what you put into it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those pictures are little stunts for tourists, not indicators of fitness.


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## Steve (Feb 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No because it doesn't make zero sense.  There are different things that can be done for mental and physical health.  Alot of the TMA systems have things about health and mental well being that you aren't going to find in a MMA gym.  As a matter of fact when MMA fighters want that aspect of it, they go outside of MMA and do things like Yoga.  Conor McGregor does Yoga.  Yoga is not MMA
> 
> You can't get what you get out of Yoga by doing MMA.


Oh boy. Okay. When I have some more time I might try to respond to some of this.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 14, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Those pictures are little stunts for tourists, not indicators of fitness.


I thought about how I would respond to that.  But I'll just let you keep believing this.


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## Mider (Feb 14, 2022)

The Kyokushin school looks good, is there any MMA near by ?


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> Oh boy. Okay. When I have some more time I might try to respond to some of this.


Take all the time you want.  MMA can't be everything.  Just like Kung Fu or TMA can't be everything that's just the reality.

Don't take my word for it.  Take his.





maybe ask


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No because it doesn't make zero sense.  There are different things that can be done for mental and physical health.  Alot of the TMA systems have things about health and mental well being that you aren't going to find in a MMA gym.  As a matter of fact when MMA fighters want that aspect of it, they go outside of MMA and do things like Yoga.  Conor McGregor does Yoga.  Yoga is not MMA
> 
> You can't get what you get out of Yoga by doing MMA.


As you say, there are different things that can be done for mental and physical health.  So, it seems really odd that you don't recognize the obvious physical, mental, and spiritual benefits that MMA (and other competitive arts) provide.  




JowGaWolf said:


> That's true.
> 
> 
> Most TMA schools that I know of that focus (with exceptions) are more likely to work on deescalation method than punching someone in the face.  One of the things we hear in TMA schools is "we only teach for defense."  One of the drills that's common is that that one student punches me and I must react.  I cannot do anything until the student punches.  The martial arts is almost taught from the perspective some "Someone must attack me first before I can fight back."


What a sentence.  Most... that you know of... are more likely?  Well, it's settled then.  

But, for the sake of discussion, let's take this at face value.  I would say that martial arts schools are one of many places where folks can learn effective deescalation techniques and skills.  In fact, if deescalation techniques are the goal, I'd take quality call center training and experience all day long over TMA instruction.  People who work in government, in 800 number call centers, in food service, as flight attendants... now THOSE people are learning real world deescalation skills, and I would bet that many have excellent training on the topic.   
I'd say the same thing for MMA training, too.  I wouldn't count on a martial arts instructor to teach me anything but martial arts.  That's were folks get into trouble.  

But, as I've said many times before, if I'm looking for someone who is well prepared for self defense, I'll take the MMA trained guy who doesn't engage in high risk behaviors (e.g., drinking to excess in public, drug use, moonlighting as a prostitute, running with a gang) who is inherently just a nice person, and who worked for several years as a call center agent, or something similar.  That person will be fit, happy, have some fighting skills, and also have at least some rudimentary deescalation skills and instincts.  




JowGaWolf said:


> We can pull up tons of TMA videos that start off with "When A does this, then I react and do that."  I understand why they say this to children but I think they take it too far sometimes and as a result it makes it difficult to fight offensively with Martial Arts.  Some even make kids take pledges that they will only use martial arts to defend themselves..



Kids are whole different topic.  Suffice to say, the kids on the D&D club are learning about as much self defense skill as the kids in most tiny tigers classes.  The difference is that the D&D club kids are likely to be more self aware about their fighting prowess, and won't suffer the same crisis of confidence that a tiny tiger who has delusions of grandeur will.  

As with adults, if you want a kid to learn to fight, they need to fight.  Judo, BJJ, wrestling, TKD, boxing.  We can argue about which is best, but as much grief as TKD gets... kids in TKD who compete are learning real skills.  



JowGaWolf said:


> If people are being programmed to only used Martial Arts for self-defense, then they are less likely to get into fights.  The are also more likely to use other methods to deal with violent conflict.  That whole concept of winning a fight without fighting, runs deep in some schools.


If you only learn self defense from a martial arts school, you are being programmed in the manner you suggest.  Of the two of us, one is programmed as you describe... and it's not me.   What I would suggest is that if you stop thinking of martial arts schools as "self defense" schools, and instead think of them as what they are (a place to learn to fight), then you start to think of self defense in a much more constructive manner.  

For the rest, you are making really clear the fundamental issues with the TMA mindset toward self defense.  People can get a lot of physical and mental health benefits from working out at the gym.  They can get it from surfing, or hiking.  This idea that TMA has a monopoly on it is silly.  Literally any physically challenging activity has the potential for physical, mental, and emotional benefit.  In fact, I would say, the more prominent these things are in the sales pitch for a martial arts school, the less likely it will deliver.  




JowGaWolf said:


> Yep. spiritual health, chi, (qui), weapons, lion dance, forms (kata), forms competition, point sparring, weapons sparring, lessons on internal vs external, soft vs hard. Traditional training methods.. For the physical part you can't beat age or the problems that come with it.  As much as we like to bang things out we can't always do that. There will come a time when our training will change, unless you talking about the non-fighting parts of MMA.  I just don't see 80 large group of 80 year old dudes in the MMA ring.   But I can find a large number of 80 year old people practicing there TMA system staying active and being healthy. I don't see the TMA people getting in to the ring either.  At some point of the time, it becomes necessary to stop banging the body out like young people do.


So, the metric you're using now is longevity? That seems arbitrary.  I know a lot of old folks do tai chi.  My mom is one, and I am all for the health benefits to her.  But she also swims, which is as good for her as tai chi.  And she does not delude herself into thinking she is learning martial skill.  She uses her brains and her experience, as she always has.  

I know old dudes do BJJ and Judo, as well.  We have some old guys on this forum.  

But all of this is a red herring.  If we're talking about physical, mental, and emotional health benefits for a person in a moment, longevity is only one of many factors.  Shoot, if longevity is the single determiner of efficacy here, I would say video games are more effective than anything else, because you literally just need to have functioning hands to do it.   



JowGaWolf said:


> If I want to be as fit as possible then I have to do it in a way that my body isn't sustaining unhealthy damage. Randy Couture talks about the similar things @9:27 He mentions about how his body holding up allowed him to stay as active as he has been able to do.   I think a few months after this, interview he had a heart attack..


Elite level athletes in any sport put their bodies through a tremendous amount of physical stress.   

Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy, and a slew of professional golfers who suffer from chronic back issues, elbow problems, and injuries related to engaging in a sport as an elite level professional.   

If you go to Sun City West, AZ and walk around the golf courses practically any morning of the week, you will see hundreds of geezers out there playing golf.   Thousands of geriatric golfers are on the links every week across the world.  

But, like you, I can easily find an article or even a couple of articles on Google that would make support a specious argument to the contrary.


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


Hey, so how's it going?  Have you taken a class at the Kyokushin school yet?


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## Unkogami (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I thought about how I would respond to that.  But I'll just let you keep believing this.


I don't have to take it on faith. I've been there.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Feb 15, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


I have practiced and taught American Kenpo to just adults, for fifty years. I have studied up to black belt in Tracy Kenpo and American Kenpo. I have tried Judo and Akido.
For fitness, American Kenpo is very good. I'm 80, but people think I'm in my early fifties. This is because Kenpo techniques keeps me very limber. American Kenpo is infused with kung fu moves. Just practicing the self defense techniques, regularly, will keep your body, legs and arms very flexible. You do not want a martial art that goes in straight lines, but in circular movement 85 % of the time.
    I don't believe the forms are usable and I never do them. The techs are mini forms anyway and you just glance at the technique in your manual and you can practice it easily for keeping your flexibility. I think the forms are outdated. They were used centuries ago by teachers so they could remember techniques, but now we have manuals.
Just tell your instructor you do not want to learn forms, just techniques and you don't care for belt rank, you just want to learn techniques.
As for defense, I am slim, 5'2" and have had to defend myself about six times, give or take and I always finished it with just one move. American Kenpo is good for self-defense, techs are great for keeping you flexible, and of course to protect you if needed. But you always have to practice at least two times a week to keep your muscle memory.

Good luck!
Sifu
Puyallup,
Washington


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## KungfukennyG (Feb 15, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Well any of the three would be fine for the latter two reasons. But if it's actual skill in fighting you want, Find an MMA club


Sorry, but that was not a helpful answer. If you plan to fight MMA guys, go to an MMA school. If you want to learn real-life self-defense, the kind you would normally need outside of a competitive ring, any of those karate or Tang Soo Do schools would be fine if the teacher is good, although you should go to each one and watch a class with adults to see how they behave and the kinds of skill you see. Having a good attitude and not too egotistical is important, too. No Cobra Kai stuff. Most of us don't get into physical fights as adults because we are smart. You don't need MMA to be good at self-defense, although it helps to be open to all styles.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> So, it seems really odd that you don't recognize the obvious physical, mental, and spiritual benefits that MMA (and other competitive arts) provide.


Name one spiritual benefit from MMA.  I'm not talking about something spiritual that someone brings with them to MMA.  I'm talking about something spiritual that is taught in MMA.  What is the spiritual teaching that MMA brings to the world.?


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## Ji Yuu (Feb 15, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


Any hand-to-hand combat system (martial art) is good as long as you learn how to fight (engage your attacker). I would stay away from the schools that only teach according to the rules for competition unless you're going that route. One way to tell if the school is into sport vs defense training is seeing how students target each other during sparring (they fight how they are trained). If they only target the "legal" zones, you may not want to train with them. On the other hand, if a school teaches kicking to the knee or targeting areas that would get you disqualified in a tourney, you may be on the right track.


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## pudaoking (Feb 15, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


Hi GuitaristDog87, I have studied many forms of MA since I was a kid back in the 70's. I have more experience and knowledge than most when it comes to MA. My 1st style as a kid was Shotokan Karate and I did Tang Soo Do for 4.5 years back in the late 80's. So I have some experience with just those 2 styles alone. What you need to understand is that Karate is Karate period. It is all cookie cutter, same old same old. You will learn the same thing from any of the schools you are looking at. It's all basic level stuff. The only difference is the instructor themselves, and their teaching skills and how aggressive their school's attitude is. You HAVE to go to each one and take a free class to see if you are a match and click with them. One thing I will tell you right off the bat, MMA is not the answer, first off it is purely a sport like boxing and most important it is ONLY a young man's game. They use all muscular force as their main driving engine and it will wane with age as will your speed. MMA is for impatient students that want immediate gratification for the here and now while they are young. It also is what is referred to as a degenerative art. Which means you will most likely have permanent injuries down the road from improper training like arthritis and back issues. MMA guys like to go toe-to toe and fight with their opponents you don't want to fight, what you really want is to control your opponent. What it sounds to me that your looking for really isn't self defense. Self defense will usually teach you just enough about fighting to get you killed. What you are looking for is a life-long MA like Wing Chun for example, which doesn't rely on strength at all, you don't need to be really fast, and you don't waste lots of energy. They offer some of the most efficient methods for fighting. It is one of the few styles I still practice along with Xing Yi and Baguazhang. Again the school will always depend on the teacher. As far as I am concerned, 95% of all Karate schools out there whether it is Shotokan, Isshin Ryu, Shoin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, etc, ( I studied all of those mentioned at one time or another) don't really have a clue what they are doing since you can't question most teachers methods or reasons for why they do things cause the truth is they don't know themselves. Just remember ALL Karate (Japanese, Okinawan, Korean) comes from one of the 18 main White Crane Kung Fu schools back in the 1800's. I forget which one, but Karate is only the foundation and some intermediate levels of a much larger art. It is not complete by any means and is limited. I don't have any traditional Chinese MA where I live now and only have the same type of offerings you have available to you so I stay home and practice what I already know. There are also some very good Online schools out there teaching excellent MA and you can send them videos each month and get progress Reponses back from the teacher so you might want to look into that as well. You won't get the hands on and direct corrections with students and the instructor but you can go at your own pace and watch and review 24/7 any of the online lessons. Take my advice as you will, and good luck in your training.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> I'd take quality call center training and experience all day long over TMA instruction.


There's a big difference between angry people on the phone and angry people in person.  No one trains self-defense by going to call center training.


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## Johnkungfu (Feb 15, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


If your looking for self defense. - difference is tang soo do is korean style with high kick and aerial kicks and two step spar - kyokushin is usually full contact only kick to the head punch the chest - for stand up to me nothing beats boxing &muay thai. However if could only choose one it would be kyokushin - i am not fond of rank driven arts 
No politics in a k.o


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## Sensei Matt (Feb 15, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


Keep in mind that “self-defense” is a legal term, not a type of martial arts. That being said, it is important to understand use of force law if you want to learn anyone martial art to protect yourself. There is a lot of awareness training that is vital to staying out of violent encounters as well, and those don’t require physical training. As far as the styles that you mentioned, I would personally look at Kyokushin because there is more training on actually stand up striking. Hopefully you will get more options in your area in the future. Best of luck to you!


----------



## Johnkungfu (Feb 15, 2022)

pudaoking said:


> Hi GuitaristDog87, I have studied many forms of MA since I was a kid back in the 70's. I have more experience and knowledge than most when it comes to MA. My 1st style as a kid was Shotokan Karate and I did Tang Soo Do for 4.5 years back in the late 80's. So I have some experience with just those 2 styles alone. What you need to understand is that Karate is Karate period. It is all cookie cutter, same old same old. You will learn the same thing from any of the schools you are looking at. It's all basic level stuff. The only difference is the instructor themselves, and their teaching skills and how aggressive their school's attitude is. You HAVE to go to each one and take a free class to see if you are a match and click with them. One thing I will tell you right off the bat, MMA is not the answer, first off it is purely a sport like boxing and most important it is ONLY a young man's game. They use all muscular force as their main driving engine and it will wane with age as will your speed. MMA is for impatient students that want immediate gratification for the here and now while they are young. It also is what is referred to as a degenerative art. Which means you will most likely have permanent injuries down the road from improper training like arthritis and back issues. MMA guys like to go toe-to toe and fight with their opponents you don't want to fight, what you really want is to control your opponent. What it sounds to me that your looking for really isn't self defense. Self defense will usually teach you just enough about fighting to get you killed. What you are looking for is a life-long MA like Wing Chun for example, which doesn't rely on strength at all, you don't need to be really fast, and you don't waste lots of energy. They offer some of the most efficient methods for fighting. It is one of the few styles I still practice along with Xing Yi and Baguazhang. Again the school will always depend on the teacher. As far as I am concerned, 95% of all Karate schools out there whether it is Shotokan, Isshin Ryu, Shoin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, etc, ( I studied all of those mentioned at one time or another) don't really have a clue what they are doing since you can't question most teachers methods or reasons for why they do things cause the truth is they don't know themselves. Just remember ALL Karate (Japanese, Okinawan, Korean) comes from one of the 18 main White Crane Kung Fu schools back in the 1800's. I forget which one, but Karate is only the foundation and some intermediate levels of a much larger art. It is not complete by any means and is limited. I don't have any traditional Chinese MA where I live now and only have the same type of offerings you have available to you so I stay home and practice what I already know. There are also some very good Online schools out there teaching excellent MA and you can send them videos each month and get progress Reponses back from the teacher so you might want to look into that as well. You won't get the hands on and direct corrections with students and the instructor but you can go at your own pace and watch and review 24/7 any of the online lessons. Take my advice as you will, and good luck in your training.


Good reply


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Name one spiritual benefit from MMA.  I'm not talking about something spiritual that someone brings with them to MMA.  I'm talking about something spiritual that is taught in MMA.  What is the spiritual teaching that MMA brings to the world.?


Happiness


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's a big difference between angry people on the phone and angry people in person.  No one trains self-defense by going to call center training.


How much experience do you have dealing with angry people in general?  In person or on a phone?  how much training do you have on de-escalation?  I mean, formal training, but you can share informal training, too.

Because, I can tell you that the skills involved in de-escalation are the same on the phone or in person.  What you're talking about are the consequences for failure, which is not the same as the skills and techniques involved with success.

And as you identified de-escalation as a key component of self defense, I am sharing with you that there are much better places to learn de-escalation than from some random TMA guy who may be completely unqualified.  So, while folks may not take a job at a call center to learn self defense, the opposite is true...  I believe folks who work at call centers are likely better prepared to de-escalate a volatile situation than folks who think they're learning de-escalation skills by training in martial arts.  It's as unlikely to be true as if they were expecting to learn de-escalation skills at their yoga class.


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

In other news, I hope the OP comes back.  Interested to hear where he's headed.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> In other news, I hope the OP comes back.  Interested to hear where he's headed.


I get the feeling he's glazed over the last two pages of mma vs. tma arguing that's going on, if he's still reading at all. Especially since he didn't ask about an MMA school or any kung-fu/yoga based tma schools.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> People who work in government, in 800 number call centers, in food service, as flight attendants... now THOSE people are learning real world deescalation skills, and I would bet that many have excellent training on the topic.


Food services don't learn de-escalation like you think they do.
800 Call centers don't learn de-escalation like you think they do. 
This is your fligt attendants learning self-defense





Looks like a lot of what many TMA classes do, which is to teach self-defense to people who aren't interested in fighting competitions.


















Steve said:


> What I would suggest is that if you stop thinking of martial arts schools as "self defense" schools, and instead think of them as what they are (a place to learn to fight), then you start to think of self defense in a much more constructive manner.


Yeah I'm pretty sure the Majority of TMA schools don't think of themselves as "A place to learn to fight."
Out of the two of us only one of us got kicked out of a Martial Arts schools because "they focused too much on fighting." and it wasn't you.

As much as I enjoy fighting and using Kung Fu.   I would never and have never positioned my training, the school that I taught at, the students, nor my son to think of Kung Fu as only being about fighting.  I feel sorry for those who go to a Kung Fu school and the only thing they learn and get out of it is "How to fight."  That's such a shallow experience.



Steve said:


> This idea that TMA has a monopoly on it is silly.


Go to a TMA school and ask the school about the things they teach.  It will not be the same answer that an MMA school gives. You can visit websites and you'll see that the focus is different.  There will be some things that are similar but the focus isn't.

What I'm saying isn't my belief. It's clearly stated an demonstrated by TMA school and MMA gyms.


Steve said:


> So, the metric you're using now is longevity? That seems arbitrary.


It's not arbitrary.  Maybe that's something important to the OP


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I get the feeling he's glazed over the last two pages of mma vs. tma arguing that's going on, if he's still reading at all. Especially since he didn't ask about an MMA school or any kung-fu/yoga based tma schools.


Fair enough.  I noticed he last logged on Sunday, so I don't think he's actually seen any of the MMA vs TMA stuff.  But I hear your point.


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Food services don't learn de-escalation like you think they do.
> 800 Call centers don't learn de-escalation like you think they do.
> This is your fligt attendants learning self-defense
> 
> ...


It actually bugs me to think he or anyone else might take anything you wrote in this thread seriously.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> It actually bugs me to think he or anyone else might take anything you wrote in this thread seriously.


Not sure why it bugs you.  Sounds like something you should work out with yourself, then maybe we wouldn't clash so much.


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure why it bugs you.  Sounds like something you should work out with yourself, then maybe we wouldn't clash so much.



I think my expectations for you are too high.  That's easy enough to manage.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 15, 2022)

I like you both. What I can see from reading this is that neither of you guys are very skilled at de escalating your own TMA vs MMA argument. I know because I am as guilty as anyone could be of this.


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## Hanshi (Feb 15, 2022)

I cannot recall, off hand, who it was that said this first; maybe someone can supply that info.  But it went something like this and I must paraphrase:  "self-defense & fighting are only physical exercise without a philosophy.  But when a philosophy is added only then can it become a martial art".

With the choices you mention doing any one of them is better than doing nothing or spending your time waiting and hoping.  And true, one's reasons for starting a martial art will almost always change, possible more than once.  Hard to understand at first but aikido was about the roughest, damage prone martial art I've ever studied, and I've studied 10 or more in my more than 60 years in the arts.  It's also one of the best.  I tell students to go where the atmosphere "feels" right, where the sensei is dedicated to developing each and every student especially the less physically talented.  Now self-defense is arguably more reliant on "WILL" rather than "SKILL".  I was taught that there's no such thing as "self-defense".  One should not wait until a butt kicking is being administered to initiate a defense.  Rather, taking a cue from the Cobra Kai handbook, one _SHOULD strike first & strike hard.  _Not the same as starting a fight but acting on an imminent threat that one can tell is coming almost immediately.  

Now this next I do* not* advocate unless the student is actively studying with me; and this is the use of weapons.   I've trained in more traditional weapons than I can recall off hand.  But I have extensive experience with "environmental" weapons.  Includes but not limited to these few; plastic pocket comb, pen, handkerchief, dustpan, chair and rock, etc, etc.  You can't usually get away with carrying a katana or chucks, but most everyday items and small martial arts weapons can be carried where legal.  I was taught "weapons first".  I now walk with a cane which is also one of the best of the weapons.

I join with many of the other posters and say _DO SOMETHING.  _While age (itself) is not necessarily as much of a factor as many believe.  One of my very best students was a lady who started with me in her mid 50s.  Talk about not wanting to meet someone in an alley!  Forget "sport" karate and challenge yourself.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 15, 2022)

I will say it til the cows come home( not likely because I sold them years ago) IT IS NEVER ABOUT THE STYLE, IT IS ABOUT THE PERSON PERFORMING THE STYLE! The whole argument is meaningless, it serves only to debase and devalue a style in order to elevate or defend a style. I can find skilled fighters in ANY style. To my mind, there is no such thing As one style is better than the others. None of us has practiced with or had the life experiences of the others. None of us knows how the others would actually perform in the ring, or the street, or otherwise. This is the internet, not real life, we aren’t facing off in the parking lot(god forbid). It’s easy to get wrapped up in these nonsense arguments, I certainly have engaged in it myself. I hope that we can all agree to have respect for each Other and stop discrediting the things we haven’t actually experienced. We all should be able to agree that there are many skilled people in all the various martial arts. We should also all be able to agree that even with our vast collected knowledge and experiences we do not know about every skilled person in every style out there.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I like you both. What I can see from reading this is that neither of you guys are very skilled at de escalating your own TMA vs MMA argument. I know because I am as guilty as anyone could be of this.


Ha ha ha. nope.  Topics like that have a 9 page requirement before calling it a day.

I know I'm passionate about it, mainly because it includes so many systems and each system has its own reason and focus for doing things "the old way."  One website states that there are 190+ Martial Arts systems out there yet things get boiled down to one or two things. The diversity TMA is ignored along with the variety of reasons that people may want to take it.  And that's when perspectives clash. 

I'll make a future effort to let some things slide in this place.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> IT IS NEVER ABOUT THE STYLE, IT IS ABOUT THE PERSON PERFORMING THE STYLE!


lol..here comes the rain lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Name one spiritual benefit from MMA.  I'm not talking about something spiritual that someone brings with them to MMA.  I'm talking about something spiritual that is taught in MMA.  What is the spiritual teaching that MMA brings to the world.?


I can’t think of any reason an MMA coach couldn’t be as spiritual in their approach as a TMA instructor.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 15, 2022)

Ji Yuu said:


> Any hand-to-hand combat system (martial art) is good as long as you learn how to fight (engage your attacker). I would stay away from the schools that only teach according to the rules for competition unless you're going that route. One way to tell if the school is into sport vs defense training is seeing how students target each other during sparring (they fight how they are trained). If they only target the "legal" zones, you may not want to train with them. On the other hand, if a school teaches kicking to the knee or targeting areas that would get you disqualified in a tourney, you may be on the right track.


I’d be less concerned about a school habit a strong competition focus (unless that competition is very far removed from fighting) than it having no resistance in training. There are methods that can develop fighting skill without much resistance, but it’s likely inconsistent, and you don’t have a good way to judge your own abilities. MMA training is better for self defense prep than a lot of current TMA, because their competition is actual fighting.


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## Martial D (Feb 15, 2022)

KungfukennyG said:


> Sorry, but that was not a helpful answer. If you plan to fight MMA guys, go to an MMA school. If you want to learn real-life self-defense, the kind you would normally need outside of a competitive ring, any of those karate or Tang Soo Do schools would be fine if the teacher is good, although you should go to each one and watch a class with adults to see how they behave and the kinds of skill you see. Having a good attitude and not too egotistical is important, too. No Cobra Kai stuff. Most of us don't get into physical fights as adults because we are smart. You don't need MMA to be good at self-defense, although it helps to be open to all styles.


That's one opinion.

Another is that most TMA training in no way prepares you for any real life altercation.

Sure there are exceptions. If you walk into one of those schools and people are geared up and actually sparring without any point rules or striking limitations, you might have something.


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## Martial D (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Name one spiritual benefit from MMA.  I'm not talking about something spiritual that someone brings with them to MMA.  I'm talking about something spiritual that is taught in MMA.  What is the spiritual teaching that MMA brings to the world.?


Define spiritual. If you mean religious mumbo jumbo no, you won't find it. If you mean that trandecendant feeling of being in 'the zone' / one with your body/ connected to everything, you'll get that from rolling and sparring as much as any amount of air kata


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I can’t think of any reason an MMA coach couldn’t be as spiritual in their approach as a TMA instructor.


That's not what I'm saying. Steve gets stuff twisted when I say things.


Gerry Seymour said:


> I can’t think of any reason an MMA coach couldn’t be as spiritual in their approach as a TMA instructor.


That's not what I'm saying.   What you are saying is where a person brings their own religion and spiritual beliefs to MMA.

To use your sentence.  I'm saying that the MMA coach received his spiritual beliefs from MMA as presented by the MMA system.  Which is why I asked what spiritual teachings does MMA teach.  Even with some Japanese systems there is spiritual and ritual teachings that is part of the Martial Arts system.


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## Mider (Feb 15, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I can’t think of any reason an MMA coach couldn’t be as spiritual in their approach as a TMA instructor.


That depends on the coach, watch interviews with Erik Paulson, he’s very spiritual as is Guru Dan Inosanto supposedly, Silat, Kali, Muay Thai do have spiritual aspects to them.


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## Mider (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's not what I'm saying. Steve gets stuff twisted.
> 
> There is spiritualism that you have and your bring to your Martial arts.
> Then there's is spiritualism that you
> ...


You should ignore Steve I think he’s a troll, he calls people who disagree with him liars.

you should look up Erik Paulson he’s pretty spiritual. People who learn MMA should at least be learning to be decent and honest


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's not what I'm saying. Steve gets stuff twisted.
> 
> There is spiritualism that you have and your bring to your Martial arts.
> Then there's is spiritualism that you
> ...


I just don’t see why an MMA coach couldn’t include as much spiritualism as any TMA, nor why a TMA couldn’t be as devoid of it as any MMA program. 

My TMA experience had a moderate amount of philosophy. I think there are youth sport coaches who offer a similar amount of philosophy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 15, 2022)

Mider said:


> That depends on the coach, watch interviews with Erik Paulson, he’s very spiritual as is Guru Dan Inosanto supposedly, Silat, Kali, Muay Thai do have spiritual aspects to them.


I suspect the amount of spiritualism (or philosophy, which is what I think is actual under debate here) in most arts also depends upon the instructor.


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I like you both. What I can see from reading this is that neither of you guys are very skilled at de escalating your own TMA vs MMA argument. I know because I am as guilty as anyone could be of this.


What’s really sad is I’m pro TMA and pro MMA.  I just like them for what they really are, warts and all.


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I can’t think of any reason an MMA coach couldn’t be as spiritual in their approach as a TMA instructor.


I think the spirituality comes from the integrity of the activity.  As I said, the more prominent “spirituality” is in the sales pitch, the less likely it is to be beneficial, in my opinion.  It’s a red flag.


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## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I just don’t see why an MMA coach couldn’t include as much spiritualism as any TMA, nor why a TMA couldn’t be as devoid of it as any MMA program.
> 
> My TMA experience had a moderate amount of philosophy. I think there are youth sport coaches who offer a similar amount of philosophy.


Okay. Hold on. I think I get it.  Do you all think something can only be spiritual if you are like meditating, praying, or in some other overt way doing “spiritual” things?  Good lord.  I think that’s it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Define spiritual. If you mean religious mumbo jumbo no, you won't find it.


I won't call it mumbo jumbo because some Martial arts have a strong budism influence and some have a numerology influence. Traditional lion dance is like this. If someone does a lion dance for a Chinese wedding then doing certain patterns too much or not enough will bring bad luck to a wedding.  This is what I'm talking about.  This is all cultural things with a long history of tradition.  A person can still train at a school like this without adopting it.  But that won't stop the school from sharing that perspective.  Some people take Martial arts for this reason.  If that's what someone wants then they won't get stuff like that from MMA. It's not a dig at MMA. I'm not saying one is better.


----------



## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I won't call it mumbo jumbo because some Martial arts have a strong budism influence and some have a numerology influence. Traditional lion dance is like this. If someone does a lion dance for a Chinese wedding then doing certain patterns too much or not enough will bring bad luck to a wedding.  This is what I'm talking about.  This is all cultural things with a long history of tradition.  A person can still train at a school like this without adopting it.  But that won't stop the school from sharing that perspective.  Some people take Martial arts for this reason.  If that's what someone wants then they won't get stuff like that from MMA. It's not a dig at MMA. I'm not saying one is better.


I think you’re making my point.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Martial D said:


> If you mean that trandecendant feeling of being in 'the zone' / one with your body/ connected to everything, you'll get that from rolling and sparring as much as any amount of air kata


This wouldn't be spiritual to me. This is chemical and doesn't require self reflection. It doesn't require any beliefs or moral guidance to obtain this state. Totally biological.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> Okay. Hold on. I think I get it.  Do you all think something can only be spiritual if you are like meditating, praying, or in some other overt way doing “spiritual” things?  Good lord.  I think that’s it.


No one said that's the only thing it's about. Again you twist things.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think you’re making my point.


What point is that?


----------



## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No one said that's the only thing it's about. Again you twist things.


I’m the one twisting things?  Okay.  I didn’t say anyone said that.  When you understand the difference between saying and doing, you’ll understand how a person who says they can offer you spiritual benefits might not be able to do it.


----------



## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> What point is that?


Finally, you’re asking yourself the right question.  Go back and reread the posts with that question in mind.  I’m trying to help you grow spiritually.


----------



## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I won't call it mumbo jumbo because some Martial arts have a strong budism influence and some have a numerology influence. Traditional lion dance is like this. If someone does a lion dance for a Chinese wedding then doing certain patterns too much or not enough will bring bad luck to a wedding.  This is what I'm talking about.  This is all cultural things with a long history of tradition.  A person can still train at a school like this without adopting it.  But that won't stop the school from sharing that perspective.  Some people take Martial arts for this reason.  If that's what someone wants then they won't get stuff like that from MMA. It's not a dig at MMA. I'm not saying one is better.


You asked me to name one spiritual benefit of training MMA.  I named one.  I could name more if you like.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Mider said:


> That depends on the coach, watch interviews with Erik Paulson, he’s very spiritual as is Guru Dan Inosanto supposedly, Silat, Kali, Muay Thai do have spiritual aspects to them.


Almost all of the old systems do.  That's the stuff that helps define Traditional in martial arts.  Things like bowing, tea rituals, the way people sit, the way people enter or leave a room.  All of that has come cultural meaning or some other significance not related to fighting.  When I trained at a Kung Fu school, I couldn't enter or leave the class without bowing.  I had to pay respect to the shrine.  One day a kid bumped into the shrine and some fruit fell off the shrine.  I thought that kid was going to die that day lol.  

Weapons and other training equipment had to be positioned a certain way.  The shrine had to be in a certain place as well.  It couldn't be put out in the hallway.   Lot's of cultural etiquette too.  I didn't get a chance to learn it all.  When I went to spar at the Sanda school I was supposed to pay respect to that school's shrine.  My sifu at the time told me  a little too late, but after he told me what I should have done, I started to do it.  I personally like things like that because it's an easy and meaningful way to display respect to the those at the school and it's a nice humbling experience for me.


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## wolfeyes2323 (Feb 15, 2022)

Shotokan  for self defense, it is a Martial art,
Kyokushin if you want to fight,   it is a fighting art (rules,weight classes)
Tang soo do I do not know much about
MMA same as Kyokushin.
There is a difference between fighting , and training to fight
and training to not fight and still prevail.   
Fighting is matching skills,  Trading techniques,  
Not fighting (self defense) is winning suddenly without even giving your opponent a chance,
Fighting requires strategy in the fight
not fighting requires strategy before the fight,
If you like to Fight , train to fight
if you want to survive , regardless of lighting, terrain, numbers, size, weight etc 
train in a Martial Art.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> Finally, you’re asking yourself the right question.  Go back and reread the posts with that question in mind.  I’m trying to help you grow spiritually.


Nah dude.  I asked you a question ha ha ha.  If I go back and read, I'm just going to think what I already think now.


----------



## Steve (Feb 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Nah dude.  I asked you a question ha ha ha.  If I go back and read, I'm just going to think what I already think now.


That’s a shame.  Maybe next time.  😂


----------



## GuitaristDog87 (Feb 15, 2022)

Sorry I got quiet everyone, still want to do a little more homework but I'm leaning towards Kyokushin Karate, we'll see.


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## Mider (Feb 15, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Sorry I got quiet everyone, still want to do a little more homework but I'm leaning towards Kyokushin Karate, we'll see.


You should try a class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 16, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think the spirituality comes from the integrity of the activity.  As I said, the more prominent “spirituality” is in the sales pitch, the less likely it is to be beneficial, in my opinion.  It’s a red flag.


I assumed the usage here was essentially philosophy - looking for meaning beyond just the combat skills. And it's pretty easy to get philosophical within any pursuit (and any MA). Some arts (like mainline Aikido's peaceful philosophy) are inherently philosophical, but I don't think that means they are necessarily more philosophical than any other.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 16, 2022)

Steve said:


> You asked me to name one spiritual benefit of training MMA.  I named one.  I could name more if you like.


I think we're back at a point where several of us may be using different definitions of "spiritual", which makes all of this pointless until we know what each other mean.


----------



## Steve (Feb 16, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think we're back at a point where several of us may be using different definitions of "spiritual", which makes all of this pointless until we know what each other mean.


That's what I realized. I just need to remember that some folks see things from a very specific, myopic perspective.  MMA is pigeon holed as one thing for them, and "TMA" is another.  

Like fighting, I am very skeptical of anyone who says they are qualified to teach de-escalation skills only because they learned a system from someone else.  Without experience, that person is probably incompetent.  As I said, I know and have taught literally thousands of people who have no physical fighting skills de-escalation skills that they apply daily with people who are highly erratic and potentially very dangerous.  Any of those folks would be far more qualified to teach this topic than some random TMA instructor who says he learned it as part of his martial arts training.


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## Ji Yuu (Feb 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's not what I'm saying. Steve gets stuff twisted when I say things.
> 
> That's not what I'm saying.   What you are saying is where a person brings their own religion and spiritual beliefs to MMA.
> 
> To use your sentence.  I'm saying that the MMA coach received his spiritual beliefs from MMA as presented by the MMA system.  Which is why I asked what spiritual teachings does MMA teach.  Even with some Japanese systems there is spiritual and ritual teachings that is part of the Martial Arts system.


I understand what you are saying. Perhaps if you reference the 5 tenants of Tae Kwon Do or the 20 precepts of Shotokan, the things that build character, others can more easily see the comparison you are making. Use those as examples of the "spirituality" you are talking about.


----------



## Steve (Feb 16, 2022)

Alright.  To the OP, I will just say train at whatever school you like.  If the school delivers to you what you are really looking for, great.  But make sure you will be doing what you want to learn.  If you want to learn to fight, make sure the school fights.  If you want to learn kata, make sure that the school does a lot of kata.  If you want to learn weapons, by all means learn those weapons.  

And conversely, if you don't really need to learn to fight, by all means look at some other styles where fighting isn't really their thing.  If you LIKE the idea of being a ninja or a kung fu master (and I get that), being able to actually defend yourself might not be a priority.  Just be honest with yourself about what you're learning and what you're not learning.  Don't fall for the sales pitches.

And this bologna about some being more spiritual than others is complete bunk.  Anything that is hard to do, that requires you to grow mentally and physically, and that makes you feel more confident and happy is filling up your spiritual cup. 

As I said before, there is much spiritual, emotional, and mental benefit to all exercise.  The more the activity focuses on just spirituality, the more skeptical I would be that it will deliver (In my opinion).  So, if what you're learning checks all of your boxes, you are golden.  

Some MMA specific articles:









						Mental and physical health benefits of MMA - AZ Big Media
					

MMA is known as the world’s fastest-growing sport, owing to its presence for a long time. If you have never tried martial arts, you may not be acquainted with the benefits associated with it. MMA is not just limited to physical benefits, such as helping you get back in shape and losing weight...




					azbigmedia.com
				












						Here’s How Martial Arts Connects Your Mind, Body, And Spirit
					

Ask any martial arts practitioner, and they will tell you that martial arts training is the most complete form of exercise that they have ever encountered. Its approach to health and wellness…




					evolve-mma.com
				




This one talks about the neuroplasticity that @drop bear and @Hanzou have both mentioned over the years.









						MMA for your mental health
					

Are you curious about what it looks like inside the minds of the MMA fighter? Why do they seem to be so grounded, level headed and yet a class apart?




					combatkinetics.com
				









Here are a couple on martial arts that don't seem specific to TMA to me.  I read the articles and everything mentioned applies equally to boxing, sambo, wrestling, BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai or any other style, as well.  









						Mental Health
					

Mental health disorders affect an estimated 22% of American adults each year. Here you'll find in-depth mental health information including care, and various mental health conditions.




					www.webmd.com
				





And some general articles on the benefits of any regular exercise:









						Why Fitness is a Spiritual Practice – Wanderlust
					

Here are the reasons your regular fitness routine can be considered a spiritual practice.




					wanderlust.com
				












						Exercise and Spirituality: 6 Surprising Spiritual Benefits of Exercise
					

Fitness is also considered as a spiritual practice. In this article, our experts have compiled the surprising spiritual benefits of exercise.




					www.vivotion.com
				












						45 Physical, Mental and Spiritual Benefits of Exercise
					

The benefits of exercise, physically, mentally and spiritually are out of this world!




					medium.com
				












						4 Spiritual Benefits Of Exercising
					

If you want to grow more spiritually, one of the things you should strongly consider is getting into a regular rudiment of physical exercise.




					www.christiantoday.com
				








__





						Exercise and Spiritual Health: A Body & Soul Approach to Fitness
					

Body & Soul: A more spiritual approach to fitness could give your clients a boost.




					blog.nasm.org


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## Martial D (Feb 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This wouldn't be spiritual to me. This is chemical and doesn't require self reflection. It doesn't require any beliefs or moral guidance to obtain this state. Totally biological.


Everything is biological. There is no evidence anywhere that brain states are anything but biological.

So what you really mean is there is no superstition in MMA training. I guess that depends on the coach but that would be a huge red flag for me.

Different strokes I guess.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 16, 2022)

Steve said:


> That’s a shame.  Maybe next time.  😂


ha ha ha ha.


Steve said:


> But make sure you will be doing what you want to learn.


Say whaaaat!?!  who are you and what did you do with Steve? Please throw away the key. Lol.

I strongly agree with this make sure the training matches the purpose.


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## Steve (Feb 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha ha.
> 
> Say whaaaat!?!  who are you and what did you do with Steve? Please throw away the key. Lol.
> 
> I strongly agree with this make sure the training matches the purpose.


I'm very consistent, and I'm very much about doing what brings you joy.  As long as it isn't harmful to yourself or others, go nuts.  But I see delusion as being very harmful.  And where it gets very harmful to others is when folks teach things they're incompetent to teach.  That's really it. 

I post on basically three things around here.  First, when someone suggests that something is what it actually is not.  B, when someone suggests that something isn't what it actually is.  And 3, random goofy **** that hopefully makes folks smile a little.  

That is it.  

So, when you say you can become expert at de-escalation by simply learning kung fu, that flags the BS meter.  When you suggest that TMA has a monopoly on spiritual development, and that MMA offers no spiritual benefit, that also flags the BS meter.


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## Steve (Feb 16, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Everything is biological. There is no evidence anywhere that brain states are anything but biological.
> 
> *So what you really mean is there is no superstition in MMA training. *I guess that depends on the coach but that would be a huge red flag for me.
> 
> Different strokes I guess.


Emphasis mine.  I think you articulated the key distinction very well.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 16, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Everything is biological. There is no evidence anywhere that brain states are anything but biological.
> 
> So what you really mean is there is no superstition in MMA training. I guess that depends on the coach but that would be a huge red flag for me.
> 
> Different strokes I guess.


Cultural differences. It can be uncomfortable when it's overdone or made as a requirement to participate.  I don’t mind experiencing some things so long as it doesn't change my core.  Everyone will have their own tolerance level.


----------



## Ji Yuu (Feb 16, 2022)

It looks like there is some confusion regarding the word "spiritual" in this interesting thread. When the word "spirit" is used the martial art sense, it refers to the core values or principles taught within that art. It is not referring to "religion" but to one's expected character. Funakoshi didn't want to train someone in Shotokan to go start a bar fight. You were expected to have a degree of respect for others and the way you treat them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Cultural differences. It can be uncomfortable when it's overdone or made as a requirement to participate.  I don’t mind experiencing some things so long as it doesn't change my core.  Everyone will have their own tolerance level.


I think the discussion got off track, because there's a difference in what folks are talking about. You're including ritual in "spirituality", and there's no spirituality in any of those rituals (we have similar to all those you mentioned) in my training, and never has been. Yes, there are spiritual roots to some of them, but that was lost when they came to a place where most participants weren't of that religious background. So the shrine became a way to acknowledge those who helped form the art and a place to display reminders of philosophical thoughts (like stones that reminded my instructor to look beyond the surface and see all the parts a person is made of).

The rituals, themselves, allow for a specific kind of discipline development, and there's philosophy behind that, as well. But I do think all these things can be developed without those traditional rituals, as well. I like the rituals. I kept all the ones I was introduced to (altered a few for practical reasons, and added one for philosophical reasons).

But I have a hard time defining any of that as "spiritual" in the common American usage. It fits my personal idea of spiritualism, because I'm completely non-religious, and philosophy and such are my spiritualism.


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## jergar (Feb 16, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


Hi, you may want to go to the local schools in your area and do some training most schools will let you train on a trial basis  a couple of weeks free or a small fee , that way you can decide if this is what you want to learn and fits your self defense goals. I my self started out in Shotokan I did it for a year the training got me in very good condition but the straight power against power and straight line techniques are some what limiting in my experience. I then found Wing Chun  and trained in that for some time, I ended up in another Chinese martial art that was only for self defense Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung and 35 yrs. later I'm still at it! So go check the schools out and do some training . Peace !


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ha ha ha. nope.  Topics like that have a 9 page requirement before calling it a day.
> 
> I know I'm passionate about it, mainly because it includes so many systems and each system has its own reason and focus for doing things "the old way."  One website states that there are 190+ Martial Arts systems out there yet things get boiled down to one or two things. The diversity TMA is ignored along with the variety of reasons that people may want to take it.  And that's when perspectives clash.
> 
> I'll make a future effort to let some things slide in this place.


I agree with you. I’m in your boat.


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (Feb 16, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


Congratulations on deciding to train as an adult, very few adults have the drive to learn these days. My personal 20 years experience with Tang Soo Do is it is very good for self defense if you find a school that allows sparing. I have used it hundreds of times in actual aggressive situations as a Deputy Sheriff and a Bouncer. I do suggest you obtain experience in Jiu Jitsu or similar ground techniques also.  If you have an American Kenpo Ed Parker system instructor in your area I found in my 10 years experience with Kenpo it really adds many very usable self defense techniques. All Martial Arts will be useful for self defense and fitness. Good Luck. Ron


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## Martial D (Feb 16, 2022)

Ji Yuu said:


> It looks like there is some confusion regarding the word "spiritual" in this interesting thread. When the word "spirit" is used the martial art sense, it refers to the core values or principles taught within that art. It is not referring to "religion" but to one's expected character. Funakoshi didn't want to train someone in Shotokan to go start a bar fight. You were expected to have a degree of respect for others and the way you treat them.


Well then in this context it would depend entirely on the school and instructors rather than the style.


----------



## super saiyan 4 (Feb 16, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


Almost any self defense system works to some extent do what's most fun and intresting.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 17, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I just don't see 80 large group of 80 year old dudes in the MMA ring.   But I can find a large number of 80 year old people practicing there TMA system staying active and being healthy. I don't see the TMA people getting in to the ring either.  At some point of the time, it becomes necessary to stop banging the body out like young people do.
> 
> If I want to be as fit as possible then I have to do it in a way that my body isn't sustaining unhealthy damage. Randy Couture talks about the similar things @9:27 He mentions about how his body holding up allowed him to stay as active as he has been able to do.   I think a few months after this, interview he had a heart attack..



But if I'm in my 20's to 30's, I really don't want to train things structured for old people, esp. those in their 80's. Most TMA schools I've been to, just about everybody gasses out way before I do, and I'm doing their thing while being 20-30 years older than most of them.

BJJ:  90min.  25min warmup exercises that are mostly actual techs. 30min drilling of 1 or 2 techs being taught. 30min of sparring. 
Muay Thai:  90min.  25min of hard cardio. 25min of pads.  40min of training tech/drilling & maybe sparring.

Average TMA's who come in to try it out, usually can't complete the warmup ex. w/o gassing & taking breaks. The gassing throughout the remainder of the class. The ones who stick with it, get in much better shape then when they first came in.

Couture is not a good example as he trained at the highest level for a very long time; achieving World Champion status. Most people in MMA, train for fitness and as a hobby. Maybe 0-5 fights in Muay Thai or MMA or compete in BJJ only; continuing training to stay healthy.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 17, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No because it doesn't make zero sense.  There are different things that can be done for mental and physical health.  Alot of the TMA systems have things about health and mental well being that you aren't going to find in a MMA gym.  As a matter of fact when MMA fighters want that aspect of it, they go outside of MMA and do things like Yoga.  Conor McGregor does Yoga.  Yoga is not MMA
> 
> You can't get what you get out of Yoga by doing MMA.



BJJ charges about $150-180/mo  for 3 (90min) classes per week, usually with a 1yr contract + $150-300 signup fee.  

Yeah, Connor McGregor probably has a personal Yoga instructor & a bunch of other Trainers for fitness, health, nutrition, etc. b/c he's a multi millionaire.   But I do not want to learn Yoga after paying all of that $$; and esp. not meditate for any part of that, paid 90mins.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 17, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I get the feeling he's glazed over the last two pages of mma vs. tma arguing that's going on, if he's still reading at all. Especially since he didn't ask about an MMA school or any kung-fu/yoga based tma schools.



ok, that was pretty good. lmbo.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> But if I'm in my 20's to 30's, I really don't want to train things structured for old people, esp. those in their 80's. Most TMA schools I've been to, just about everybody gasses out way before I do, and I'm doing their thing while being 20-30 years older than most of them.
> 
> BJJ:  90min.  25min warmup exercises that are mostly actual techs. 30min drilling of 1 or 2 techs being taught. 30min of sparring.
> Muay Thai:  90min.  25min of hard cardio. 25min of pads.  40min of training tech/drilling & maybe sparring.
> ...


It's dangerous to judge a group based on what you experience outside that group.

Most of the folks who've come to my classes from other arts are looking because they aren't currently actively training in that art, for whatever reason. I'd expect most of those folks to be less fit than they were when actively taking classes.

I've been to some TMA schools that were incredibly rigorous. Some seemed more focused on fitness than anything else, turning every drill into a stamina exercise. Of course, how hard anyone went in those exercises was entirely up to the individual.

But then, it also matters who you're trying to cater to. And some schools soften over time, as the instructor softens. I know the energy level at the dojo I trained at for years went way down over time. I don't know if that was because the chief instructor was getting older, because the average student was older, or for a combination of those and other reasons.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> BJJ charges about $150-180/mo  for 3 (90min) classes per week, usually with a 1yr contract + $150-300 signup fee.
> 
> Yeah, Connor McGregor probably has a personal Yoga instructor & a bunch of other Trainers for fitness, health, nutrition, etc. b/c he's a multi millionaire.   But I do not want to learn Yoga after paying all of that $$; and esp. not meditate for any part of that, paid 90mins.


Those prices may be where you are, but won't be everywhere - they wouldn't hold up in this area. And contracts (and signup fees) are exceedingly rare around here. And BJJ schools would be among the last places I'd expect to find them.


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## Steve (Feb 17, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> It's dangerous to judge a group based on what you experience outside that group.
> 
> Most of the folks who've come to my classes from other arts are looking because they aren't currently actively training in that art, for whatever reason. I'd expect most of those folks to be less fit than they were when actively taking classes.
> 
> ...


I still think BJJ is more of a TMA more than some TMAs.  The tradition in BJJ runs deep, and the art is older than many modern TMA styles.  

All of that to say, I agree with you that some TMA schools are rigorous.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2022)

Steve said:


> I still think BJJ is more of a TMA more than some TMAs.  The tradition in BJJ runs deep, and the art is older than many modern TMA styles.
> 
> All of that to say, I agree with you that some TMA schools are rigorous.


Yeah, this is one of those times when the vagueness of “TMA” causes problems, as does ignorance (mine) of tradition in other styles.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 17, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Those prices may be where you are, but won't be everywhere - they wouldn't hold up in this area. And contracts (and signup fees) are exceedingly rare around here. And BJJ schools would be among the last places I'd expect to find them.



Lowest in NC is around $130, but that's rare.  Gracie gyms in NC charges $150 easily though, probably more.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 17, 2022)

Steve said:


> I still think BJJ is more of a TMA more than some TMAs.  The tradition in BJJ runs deep, and the art is older than many modern TMA styles.
> 
> All of that to say, I agree with you that some TMA schools are rigorous.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Lowest in NC is around $130, but that's rare.  Gracie gyms in NC charges $150 easily though, probably more.


I'm in NC, and maybe prices have gone up a lot, or maybe it varies more within the state than I thought.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 18, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> But if I'm in my 20's to 30's, I really don't want to train things structured for old people, esp. those in their 80's. Most TMA schools I've been to, just about everybody gasses out way before I do, and I'm doing their thing while being 20-30 years older than most of them.


This has nothing to do with the system.  As you stated.  "Things structured for old people"  Tai Can be structured for young people and young people can go at it just as hard as someone training to be a professional fighting. It can also be structured as an activity for seniors.   Same system approached differently based on one's ability to put in the work.  It's still Tai Chi.  I used to take formal classes in Tai Chi and I had more injury from Tai Chi than from Jow Ga Kung Fu and those injuries were from Tai Chi push hands and getting my elbow locked and hyper-extended.  People in their 80's are not going to train Tai Chi like I trained it in my 40's.



jayoliver00 said:


> Average TMA's who come in to try it out, usually can't complete the warmup ex. w/o gassing & taking breaks.


This used to be the case in the school where I used to train Jow Ga.  A Sanda school had far superior stamina. I gassed out. That bad performance led to a change in our training.  A weekly sparring class was created and the training in that class was design to address the gaps that we experienced during that first sparring session.   How much did it changed?  In the sparring class all students almost remained in constant movement for 1 hour.  From warm-up to , strength building, conditioning, and sparring.  We were moving, kicking, punching, doing push ups, sit ups, shadow boxing, working techniques.  When it came to sparring.  We did round robins so there was always one person who had to go against fresh opponents.  Training on that day often lasted 2 hours even though it was scheduled for 1 hour.

How do I train now?  I still train Jow Ga.  1 hour working techniques on and off the heavy bags.  1 hour working weights.  If my son could handle it, we would be 1 hour worth of techniques. 1 hour of plyometrics, and 1 hour of weights.  My current 2 hour workout schedule is the beginner workout plan.  The reason I share this is because it's up to the person to put in the work.  

One thing that all of my martial arts teachers told me. "Training at school is not enough.  You should also train hard at home."


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 18, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> BJJ charges about $150-180/mo for 3 (90min) classes per week, usually with a 1yr contract + $150-300 signup fee.


From a marketing standpoint.  BJJ is a premium.  It's the luxury car.  TKD is a premium.  Martial Arts that have good marketing and a large popularity will always be a premium.  When my school was open Jow Ga was $60 for individuals and I think $70 or $80 for family plans.  If you have 5 kids 2 adults, then the price would be that family plan price.  A lot of our parents trained with their kids.  Some Jow  Ga schools are more expensive but they have a reputation in that market place.


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## Steve (Feb 18, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This has nothing to do with the system.  As you stated.  "Things structured for old people"  Tai Can be structured for young people and young people can go at it just as hard as someone training to be a professional fighting. It can also be structured as an activity for seniors.   Same system approached differently based on one's ability to put in the work.  It's still Tai Chi.  I used to take formal classes in Tai Chi and I had more injury from Tai Chi than from Jow Ga Kung Fu and those injuries were from Tai Chi push hands and getting my elbow locked and hyper-extended.  People in their 80's are not going to train Tai Chi like I trained it in my 40's.



Yeah, folks shouldn't presume systems are only for young or old people, as though a 60 year old would train any style the same as a 20 year old.  Some guy was posting some real bunk earlier talking about longevity in some systems.  I can't even remember what his actual point was, it was so obviously biased.  I wish you'd go back to that guy and tell him what's what.   



JowGaWolf said:


> This used to be the case in the school where I used to train Jow Ga.  A Sanda school had far superior stamina. I gassed out. That bad performance led to a change in our training.  A weekly sparring class was created and the training in that class was design to address the gaps that we experienced during that first sparring session.   How much did it changed?  In the sparring class all students almost remained in constant movement for 1 hour.  From warm-up to , strength building, conditioning, and sparring.  We were moving, kicking, punching, doing push ups, sit ups, shadow boxing, working techniques.  When it came to sparring.  We did round robins so there was always one person who had to go against fresh opponents.  Training on that day often lasted 2 hours even though it was scheduled for 1 hour.
> 
> How do I train now?  I still train Jow Ga.  1 hour working techniques on and off the heavy bags.  1 hour working weights.  If my son could handle it, we would be 1 hour worth of techniques. 1 hour of plyometrics, and 1 hour of weights.  My current 2 hour workout schedule is the beginner workout plan.  The reason I share this is because it's up to the person to put in the work.
> 
> One thing that all of my martial arts teachers told me. "Training at school is not enough.  You should also train hard at home."


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2022)

Steve said:


> Yeah, folks shouldn't presume systems are only for young or old people, as though a 60 year old would train any style the same as a 20 year old.  Some guy was posting some real bunk earlier talking about longevity in some systems.  I can't even remember what his actual point was, it was so obviously biased.  I wish you'd go back to that guy and tell him what's what.


The one exception in my mind is training that involves a lot of falls. It is difficult for new folks to learn the falls after a point (new young students are mostly fearless, so not so tense and learnt the falls faster). The falls - even static practice - are hard on the body until you do them reasonably well. The less cooperative the drills, the more true this is (Judo/NGA falls vs Aikido featherfalls).


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## Steve (Feb 18, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> The one exception in my mind is training that involves a lot of falls. It is difficult for new folks to learn the falls after a point (new young students are mostly fearless, so not so tense and learnt the falls faster). The falls - even static practice - are hard on the body until you do them reasonably well. The less cooperative the drills, the more true this is (Judo/NGA falls vs Aikido featherfalls).


Are we talking about a 60 year old, life long couch potato?  I didn't have that in mind at all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2022)

Steve said:


> Are we talking about a 60 year old, life long couch potato?  I didn't have that in mind at all.


Average 40-year-old who has never taken those kinds of falls, even fit ones with other training. Experienced hard-stylists have a particular problem learning to relax properly to reduce the impact.


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Name one spiritual benefit from MMA.  I'm not talking about something spiritual that someone brings with them to MMA.  I'm talking about something spiritual that is taught in MMA.  What is the spiritual teaching that MMA brings to the world.?



Stoicism is probably the closest philosophy that is developed through MMA.


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2022)

Steve said:


> Happiness


Sort of. I had a conversation about happiness vs fulfilment with one of my coaches. And his view is while people say they chase happiness it may not be as satisfying as chasing fulfilment.

The example was on the day of the footy finals you could choose not to play and subject yourself to whatever pressure the day brings. You could go out drink eat have fun instead and that would be chasing happiness.

Or you could play the game, forgo the pleasure's and achieve something that would give you a longer lasting sense of self worth. And that would be fulfilment.

And it is supposed to be linked to mental health and stuff.









						Seeking long-term fulfillment, not happiness, will get you through these economic hard times.
					

During hard times it's more important than ever to build your inner resources




					www.psychologytoday.com


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2022)

Steve said:


> Alright.  To the OP, I will just say train at whatever school you like.  If the school delivers to you what you are really looking for, great.  But make sure you will be doing what you want to learn.  If you want to learn to fight, make sure the school fights.  If you want to learn kata, make sure that the school does a lot of kata.  If you want to learn weapons, by all means learn those weapons.
> 
> And conversely, if you don't really need to learn to fight, by all means look at some other styles where fighting isn't really their thing.  If you LIKE the idea of being a ninja or a kung fu master (and I get that), being able to actually defend yourself might not be a priority.  Just be honest with yourself about what you're learning and what you're not learning.  Don't fall for the sales pitches.
> 
> ...



There is specific references to MMA and dealing with PTSD as well.






Which is I assume the practical definition of spirituality where you become a more resilient more capable person.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 19, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> From a marketing standpoint.  BJJ is a premium.  It's the luxury car.  TKD is a premium.  Martial Arts that have good marketing and a large popularity will always be a premium.  When my school was open Jow Ga was $60 for individuals and I think $70 or $80 for family plans.  If you have 5 kids 2 adults, then the price would be that family plan price.  A lot of our parents trained with their kids.  Some Jow  Ga schools are more expensive but they have a reputation in that market place.



Interesting. Why is that? Jow Ga would prob. be the only Kung-Fu style that I'd be interested in as it looks more practical in a real fight. I also spar with Jow Ga dudes in a sparring meet. Do you specifically call your school Jow Ga, and not Kung-Fu?  Wonder if that's why, b/c most people are ignorant and goes by movies at the beginning.

I've known a Shaolin Hung Fut school for over 30 years, and they're legit w/a Sanda program but charges $140-200/mo.  TKD about the same too. Judo is like $60.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Stoicism is probably the closest philosophy that is developed through MMA.


Thanks.  I agree with your statement and the ones made in the video.  While listening to it, I could think of ways that TMA doesn't apply to it, but I couldn't do the same with MMA.  



drop bear said:


> Which is I assume the practical definition of spirituality where you become a more resilient more capable person.


It's possible to become more resilient through spirituality but I wouldn't classify resiliency as a definition of spirituality.  There's some wild stuff in the world of spirituality and not all of it is healthy.  Not all of it will make you resilient.  Some of it will do the opposite.  I'm saying this from experience with watching my wife go through "Finding herself" and "Finding meaning in the world."  The more I tried to correct her path the more she dug in and the more her spirituality damaged her mentality.  The only thing I could do for her was to "let that plane crash" and it did and she saw the truth of things.  Now's she's in a better place.  When people are like that, they will believe strangers before their family.  Some of that stuff is like one step below a cult.

For example, did you know there's a spiritual thing where people stare into the sun each morning? They say that by staring into the sun one can soak in the sun's energy and something happens with the soul and blah blah blah.   I couldn't get past the "Stare into the Sun Part."  I was pretty much on the page that says "Why in the F would I do that."  That part I had to fight against.  There are con-men and con-women who will exploit people's weaknesses especially in spirituality.  So with all of that in mind.  I wouldn't say that building resiliency is a characteristic of spirituality.  That only exists when the spiritual thing being done is actually beneficial and helps create a healthy mindset.

Tell me something that helps me to better deal with hardships of life without being harmful to my own well-being then I'll look into it.  All of that other stuff is just poison.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 19, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This has nothing to do with the system.  As you stated.  "Things structured for old people"  Tai Can be structured for young people and young people can go at it just as hard as someone training to be a professional fighting. It can also be structured as an activity for seniors.   Same system approached differently based on one's ability to put in the work.  It's still Tai Chi.  I used to take formal classes in Tai Chi and I had more injury from Tai Chi than from Jow Ga Kung Fu and those injuries were from Tai Chi push hands and getting my elbow locked and hyper-extended.  People in their 80's are not going to train Tai Chi like I trained it in my 40's.



So basically, slow motion & light Tai Chi for old people.  Faster & more power for young.  I can do this with Boxing & Muay Thai & BJJ for MMA, which are proven styles rather than Tai Chi.  When I hit 80, I can also do slow motion Muay Thai. Not saying that Combat Tai Chi can't work, just not the best proven road based on the current evolution of MMA.

Having said that, I would pay $60/mo to learn Jow Ga & Tai Chi from you....b/c it's reasonable & I'm at a point in my base knowledge of MT & fighting, that I'm willing to learn different things to up my game. But if this was during my beginner to intermediate stage, I wouldn't want to pay $150ish at an MMA gym and get taught Yoga + Tai Chi as part of the curriculum (when it's free at LA Fitness). Yoga is def. good for BJJ, but maybe just a few minutes of it for stretching, etc. 



JowGaWolf said:


> This used to be the case in the school where I used to train Jow Ga.  A Sanda school had far superior stamina. I gassed out. That bad performance led to a change in our training.  A weekly sparring class was created and the training in that class was design to address the gaps that we experienced during that first sparring session.   How much did it changed?  In the sparring class all students almost remained in constant movement for 1 hour.  From warm-up to , strength building, conditioning, and sparring.  We were moving, kicking, punching, doing push ups, sit ups, shadow boxing, working techniques.  When it came to sparring.  We did round robins so there was always one person who had to go against fresh opponents.  Training on that day often lasted 2 hours even though it was scheduled for 1 hour.
> 
> How do I train now?  I still train Jow Ga.  1 hour working techniques on and off the heavy bags.  1 hour working weights.  If my son could handle it, we would be 1 hour worth of techniques. 1 hour of plyometrics, and 1 hour of weights.  My current 2 hour workout schedule is the beginner workout plan.  The reason I share this is because it's up to the person to put in the work.
> 
> One thing that all of my martial arts teachers told me. "Training at school is not enough.  You should also train hard at home."



True. I like this. I've often neglect weight training, my weakness.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 19, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Average 40-year-old who has never taken those kinds of falls, even fit ones with other training. Experienced hard-stylists have a particular problem learning to relax properly to reduce the impact.



I wonder if that's why Judo & Wrestling is so cheap $50-60/mo. compared to BJJ  $130-200/mo. 

Knowing what I know, I wouldn't want to start my first MA at 35 with Judo nor Wrestling; that will usually wreck you worse than BJJ & Muay Thai....esp. if they don't have good mats & flooring setup in the $10k range.   And my gym is owned by a lifelong, Judoka lineage.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Interesting. Why is that? Jow Ga would prob. be the only Kung-Fu style that I'd be interested in as it looks more practical in a real fight.


Jow Ga is known for being a practical system.  In short it would be a blend of what you see from ole skool fighting and what we see in modern fighting.  Some of the things that people think are new are actually old and can be seen in Jow Ga forms and Hung Ga forms.  I'm sure other TMA's have similar things. But I can only talk about Jow Ga.   Jow Ga's issue in my opinion is that schools lost focus.  Early stories about Jow Ga were about fighting. This was around the time of the founder and his brothers were living.  Then it shifts to lion dance, and then forms competition. Now you will here more about Jow Ga lion dance and Jow Ga forms competition. Schools do extremely well in that.  Lion dance brings in a lot of money.  Its an excellent way for schools to make money because the lion dances follow tradition Chinese culture.  Opening a new business?  Have a Chinese lion dance bless the business with luck while serving as a marketing attraction to get new customers to come in on opening day.  The other benefit of the lion dance is that it's great Marketing for the school.  Because it allows you to showcase forms.Do yDo  

The price of the lion dance goes up with every lion added.  If you are charging around $600.  Do a couple of these a month and you get a good amount of pocket change for the year. Chinese weddings are a big source of income because the additional money is given by the wedding during the dance.  There's also birthdays and special events, so you can see how it would be easy it would be for the focus to change.  As for forms competition, a lot of that is simply from the fact that people don't want to get hit in the face.  They still want to accomplish things with Kung Fu but they know they can win something without being hit.  Jow Ga does well in these competitions often because we are practical.  A lot of the coaches don't like the extreme martial arts with light weapons.  Both of these help to enhance the reputation of the schools.

Then you have people like me who want to follow Jow Ga from a functional perspective.  It's my believe that if this is done, then the rest can be easily done as learning to fight with kung fu is the most difficult of the 3 things that Jow Ga would do.  Unfortunately learning how to fight with Jow Ga kung fu doesn't bring money to the school, it can bring the reputation of being a functional system, but that's not going to go far unless students actually fight with what is taught.  No one wants to go to a kung fu match or hear that a kung fu fighter is going to fight only to be disappointed to see basic kickboxing.  Don't get me wrong.  I like the other stuff as well. I just don't think it should be the focus.  Function cannot develop without application.  Without application, people will be left to guess what works and what doesn't.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> So basically, slow motion & light Tai Chi for old people. Faster & more power for young.


In a way yes.  The slow version is also for young people as well, as it builds strength and balance in a gentle way, which is why western doctors prescribe it to old people. It's more difficult than what it looks like.  Think of it like doing a pull up on a bar.  You can pull yourself up quickly with no problem.  Now imagine doing the same movement but going Tai Chi speed.  Try this with basic weight lifting and you'll see that it requires a different type of strength.  If you are young and you want to fight with it, then you must practice both ways.  

I posted a video of a two handed strike that I thought came from Jow Ga, because Jow Ga is the only thing I spar with and I've used that strike in Jow Ga.  I went back and took a look at that form and discovered that it feels more like Wave Hands like Clouds in Tai Chi.  I can't say that it's a Tai Chi application of it, but it has that similar movement.  

To give you and example @:028. those open hand strikes are Tai Chi (Tàijíquán )strikes,  I don't add full body movement to it because I use them for hand conditioning.  @1:07 is one arm of the "Wave Hands Like Clouds" but I use a closed fist.  The two hand strike that follows as similar movement,





This is the same hand and body I was taught for Wave Hands like clouds. If he were to make a fist with his hands, then it will be the same fist structure that you see in my video.  Back hand up top, straight punch underneath.





One thumb up the other thumb turned towards me as shown in the video below.  One hand strikes high while the other strikes low. The power comes from the waist as the harms do not extend far.  This is a close range technique.




Here's the video


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> But if this was during my beginner to intermediate stage, I wouldn't want to pay $150ish at an MMA gym and get taught Yoga + Tai Chi as part of the curriculum (when it's free at LA Fitness). Yoga is def. good for BJJ, but maybe just a few minutes of it for stretching, etc.


I would take Yoga for the same reason I train Tai Chi.  It's something to help enhance and improve my Jow Ga.  The concept of being relax all the time and tense when you need it, works well for my Jow Ga.  Jow Ga by itself has a tendency to make people tense so Tai Chi is a good relaxation exercise because I have to learn to be relaxed while moving, which is difficult.  

Yoga would be my strength and flexibility exercise from the little bit that I do.  But I don't think I would pay for yoga unless someone really understood it and how it applies to martial arts.  There's a direct connection between Yoga and Martial arts.  So I don't want someone to be guessing that aspect.  I probably wouldn't go too far beyond the basics.  I'm looking to master Jow Ga and so there's no need to master Yoga, but I can use elements from Yoga to help improve my Jow Ga.   If I took an Indian Martial arts then I would probably take the Yoga that comes with it.

What I wouldn't do is take a Yoga Class from a "Club Fit" and try to integrate that into Martial Arts training.  A lot of that fitness club Yoga is not the same that is usually done with Martial Arts.  Those instructors are usually clueless. Similar to a fitness Tai Chi instructor couldn't tell someone the application of Thai chi.  For them it's just an exercise so they miss the small things that need to be done in order for it to be functional.  Before Jow Ga I wanted to take Tai Chi.  The school that I went to wanted $600 a month.  He made me do a qualification test. Told me that my balance was bad, that my breathing was bad, and that I would be no good at it.  (excellent way to sale a martial arts class to a beginner).  I didn't like his attitude and the price so I left.  I think he got offended because I told him I wanted to learn that Tai Chi that's used for fighting lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I wonder if that's why Judo & Wrestling is so cheap $50-60/mo. compared to BJJ  $130-200/mo.
> 
> Knowing what I know, I wouldn't want to start my first MA at 35 with Judo nor Wrestling; that will usually wreck you worse than BJJ & Muay Thai....esp. if they don't have good mats & flooring setup in the $10k range.   And my gym is owned by a lifelong, Judoka lineage.


Even with good mats, the way new students fall just makes me cringe.

And, yeah, a good flooring system can make a huge difference. It's one thing I've never had, since I've never had my own space.


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## drop bear (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> So basically, slow motion & light Tai Chi for old people. Faster & more power for young. I can do this with Boxing & Muay Thai & BJJ for MMA, which are proven styles rather than Tai Chi. When I hit 80, I can also do slow motion Muay Thai. Not saying that Combat Tai Chi can't work, just not the best proven road based on the current evolution of MMA.



I did a thread about boxing being the fountain of youth when I found it was the martial arts of choice for an extraordinary amount of pensioners who were bashing fools.





__





						the fountain of youth is boxing.
					

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PkenYHDfpOc  No really this is an actual trend you google up a pensioner that mauls some young kid and the pensioner will usually be a boxer.  Boxing is the fountain of youth.



					www.martialtalk.com


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Interesting. Why is that? Jow Ga would prob. be the only Kung-Fu style that I'd be interested in as it looks more practical in a real fight. I also spar with Jow Ga dudes in a sparring meet. Do you specifically call your school Jow Ga, and not Kung-Fu?  Wonder if that's why, b/c most people are ignorant and goes by movies at the beginning.
> 
> I've known a Shaolin Hung Fut school for over 30 years, and they're legit w/a Sanda program but charges $140-200/mo.  TKD about the same too. Judo is like $60.


Because Kung fu or gung fu just means hard work. Wushu is a word for martial art. Gar or Ga is a word for family.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Do you specifically call your school Jow Ga,


Jow Ga = Jow Family
Jow Ga Kung Fu = Jow Family Kung Fu

Jow Lung = Last name, First name.
Jow Lung is the founder of Jow Ga Kung Fu.  If you were to make a fighting system or a combination of then it would be your last name + the martial arts.  Gracie Jujitsu would be a recent example.  There are a lot of family systems out there some are really good but I've seen some that make me wonder if someone just didn't throw something together for the purpose of creating their on school.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Jow Ga = Jow Family
> Jow Ga Kung Fu = Jow Family Kung Fu
> 
> Jow Lung = Last name, First name.
> Jow Lung is the founder of Jow Ga Kung Fu.  If you were to make a fighting system or a combination of then it would be your last name + the martial arts.  Gracie Jujitsu would be a recent example.  There are a lot of family systems out there some are really good but I've seen some that make me wonder if someone just didn't throw something together for the purpose of creating their on school.





JowGaWolf said:


> I would take Yoga for the same reason I train Tai Chi.  It's something to help enhance and improve my Jow Ga.  The concept of being relax all the time and tense when you need it, works well for my Jow Ga.  Jow Ga by itself has a tendency to make people tense so Tai Chi is a good relaxation exercise because I have to learn to be relaxed while moving, which is difficult.
> 
> Yoga would be my strength and flexibility exercise from the little bit that I do.  But I don't think I would pay for yoga unless someone really understood it and how it applies to martial arts.  There's a direct connection between Yoga and Martial arts.  So I don't want someone to be guessing that aspect.  I probably wouldn't go too far beyond the basics.  I'm looking to master Jow Ga and so there's no need to master Yoga, but I can use elements from Yoga to help improve my Jow Ga.   If I took an Indian Martial arts then I would probably take the Yoga that comes with it.
> 
> What I wouldn't do is take a Yoga Class from a "Club Fit" and try to integrate that into Martial Arts training.  A lot of that fitness club Yoga is not the same that is usually done with Martial Arts.  Those instructors are usually clueless. Similar to a fitness Tai Chi instructor couldn't tell someone the application of Thai chi.  For them it's just an exercise so they miss the small things that need to be done in order for it to be functional.  Before Jow Ga I wanted to take Tai Chi.  The school that I went to wanted $600 a month.  He made me do a qualification test. Told me that my balance was bad, that my breathing was bad, and that I would be no good at it.  (excellent way to sale a martial arts class to a beginner).  I didn't like his attitude and the price so I left.  I think he got offended because I told him I wanted to learn that Tai Chi that's used for fighting lol.


We teach yang long style Tai chi Chuan and gung fu. Tai chi should be iron wrapped in silk. Gung fu should be silk wrapped in iron. The circle in the square and the square in the circle. They complement one another. Soft and hard. Just like the symbol. That’s the complete system. Not one or the other, both. All eight directions.


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## jurat13 (Feb 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Those pictures are little stunts for tourists, not indicators of fitness.


I would be surprised if most modern martials arts in the U.S. would train in this fashion, or would produce this type of output.  Due to a variety of factors including lifestyle changes, schedules, and potential liability.  In other words, I am not sure if it is accurate to attribute this photo to any particular modern style in the U.S., whether TMA or MMA.


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## jurat13 (Feb 22, 2022)

Johnkungfu said:


> Whether it is used as a sport or not, the techniques of Boxing, MMA, Wrestling, Muay Thai can certainly apply to non-sport applications.  Just as Tai-Chi has non-martial applications that we are mostly accustomed to seeing seniors in the park performing, there are also martial applications to Tai-Chi.


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## Johnkungfu (Feb 22, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I assumed the usage here was essentially philosophy - looking for meaning beyond just the combat skills. And it's pretty easy to get philosophical within any pursuit (and any MA). Some arts (like mainline Aikido's peaceful philosophy) are inherently philosophical, but I don't think that means they are necessarily more philosophical than any other.


Spirituality is a?western concept. Cannot apply to a martial art. Simply because morality- god- culture are not western nor created with western culture- mma is a hodge podge of traditional arts mixed together for fighting in traditional marti arts we trained only for defense and always was assumed life and death - and assumed only one would walk away - since the gun and laws and culture changed - martial arts survived by teaching Buddhist concepts and becoming a way of spirituality and i would agree that aikido and even judo.  Jujitsu took that path removing randori and watering down the arts - mma to me is a rebirth of martial arts and method of preservation and rebooting old rusty arts - just opinion thx


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## PGadd (Feb 22, 2022)

I studied Kyokushin for over a decade back in the 70s. If I recall, Obama had studied both Shotokan and Goju, and based his karate in part on both styles.  Shotokan was (is?) the classic linear Japanese style, and Goju emphasized more circular movement. The differences are evident in their respective kata.  We were taught the linear, direct moves first, and as we got more advanced, started learning the Goju. 

Both styles are effective if you master them, but I found the melding of the hard and soft to be particularly helpful.

I know nothing of Tang Soo Doo, so can not comment on that style.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 22, 2022)

Johnkungfu said:


> Spirituality is a?western concept. Cannot apply to a martial art. Simply because morality- god- culture are not western nor created with western culture- mma is a hodge podge of traditional arts mixed together for fighting in traditional marti arts we trained only for defense and always was assumed life and death - and assumed only one would walk away - since the gun and laws and culture changed - martial arts survived by teaching Buddhist concepts and becoming a way of spirituality and i would agree that aikido and even judo.  Jujitsu took that path removing randori and watering down the arts - mma to me is a rebirth of martial arts and method of preservation and rebooting old rusty arts - just opinion thx


Proper punctuation would help here.


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## Unkogami (Feb 23, 2022)

Johnkungfu said:


> Spirituality is a?western concept. Cannot apply to a martial art. Simply because morality- god- culture are not western nor created with western culture- mma is a hodge podge of traditional arts mixed together for fighting in traditional marti arts we trained only for defense and always was assumed life and death - and assumed only one would walk away - since the gun and laws and culture changed - martial arts survived by teaching Buddhist concepts and becoming a way of spirituality and i would agree that aikido and even judo.  Jujitsu took that path removing randori and watering down the arts - mma to me is a rebirth of martial arts and method of preservation and rebooting old rusty arts - just opinion thx


You really think judo removed direct, active competition?


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 23, 2022)

Johnkungfu said:


> Spirituality is a?western concept. Cannot apply to a martial art. Simply because morality- god- culture are not western nor created with western culture


Spiritual concepts don't require a religion or a god.  They are practices that can and often stand on their own.  It's a global concept. Every culture on this planet has some type of spiritualism connected to there culture. The most popular deals with death, birth, omens, good luck, and Meditation. My thoughts are that life takes on a different perspective when you leave the 4 walls of a home and get stuck in the middle of nature.


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## super saiyan 4 (Feb 23, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No because it doesn't make zero sense.  There are different things that can be done for mental and physical health.  Alot of the TMA systems have things about health and mental well being that you aren't going to find in a MMA gym.  As a matter of fact when MMA fighters want that aspect of it, they go outside of MMA and do things like Yoga.  Conor McGregor does Yoga.  Yoga is not MMA
> 
> You can't get what you get out of Yoga by doing MMA.


I've done both in the past they are drastic ly diffrent


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## super saiyan 4 (Feb 23, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> I've done both in the past they are drastic ly diffrent


At the same time yoga can help with mma


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## lklawson (Feb 23, 2022)

You guys arguing about what is and is not "spiritual" crack me up.  There's plenty of evidence that various Western origin martial pursuits and organizations included spiritual and even religious elements.  You can make anything "spiritual" to you.  You can make painting "spiritual."  You can make pottery throwing "spiritual."  I heard an Orchestra Conductor state that he'd given up actual religious observance and now focuses his "spiritual" fervor through music.  I knew one long distance runner who felt that his running was "spiritual."

There's *nothing* special about Asian martial arts which makes them any more "spiritual" than anything else in the world.  If someone can make their MMA practice "spiritual" to them, then good on 'em and you're not somehow more "spiritual" for doing a martial art of oriental origin then someone doing a martial art of occidental origin.  The whole idea is silly.  Makes me think of Ashida Kim.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 23, 2022)

lklawson said:


> You guys arguing about what is and is not "spiritual" crack me up.  There's plenty of evidence that various Western origin martial pursuits and organizations included spiritual and even religious elements.  You can make anything "spiritual" to you.  You can make painting "spiritual."  You can make pottery throwing "spiritual."  I heard an Orchestra Conductor state that he'd given up actual religious observance and now focuses his "spiritual" fervor through music.  I knew one long distance runner who felt that his running was "spiritual."
> 
> There's *nothing* special about Asian martial arts which makes them any more "spiritual" than anything else in the world.  If someone can make their MMA practice "spiritual" to them, then good on 'em and you're not somehow more "spiritual" for doing a martial art of oriental origin then someone doing a martial art of occidental origin.  The whole idea is silly.  Makes me think of Ashida Kim.
> 
> ...


Thank Steve for the More spiritual vs less spiritual track.  He planted that one lol.


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## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thank Steve for the More spiritual vs less spiritual track.  He planted that one lol.


Wait... what?

Sorry, Charlie, but my point was exactly the same as @lklawson's point.

I think you went there in post #6 in the thread, suggesting that there are no mental benefits to training in MMA, but there are mental benefits in TMA.  So, let's be clear.  You are the person who went down the spiritual track, and you are also the person who brought up MMA.


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## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure MMA is the best choice for self-defense.  We see more stories about MMA fighting outside of the ring than any other system. Much of which is the opposite of what you would do with a self defense mindset.
> 
> MMA will give you the most sparring time but it may not satisfy your other interest and concerns.  When it comes to your health concerns the other martial arts systems will do a better job with satisfying that.


Post 6 above on page one of the thread.  



Steve said:


> This is an odd comment.  Are you talking spiritual health?  Like chi stuff?  You would be hard pressed to find more physically healthy people than the typical person at an MMA school.


That's my response.  Looking to understand what you really meant.  


Steve said:


> Not wanting to train MMA is one thing.  Nothing wrong with having a personal preference.  If you want to train weapons, find an escrima school.
> 
> But what you're saying above about mental and physical health makes zero sense.


This is what I said. 


JowGaWolf said:


> Yep. spiritual health, chi, (qui), weapons, lion dance, forms (kata), forms competition, point sparring, weapons sparring, lessons on internal vs external, soft vs hard. Traditional training methods.. For the physical part you can't beat age or the problems that come with it.  As much as we like to bang things out we can't always do that. There will come a time when our training will change, unless you talking about the non-fighting parts of MMA.  I just don't see 80 large group of 80 year old dudes in the MMA ring.   But I can find a large number of 80 year old people practicing there TMA system staying active and being healthy. I don't see the TMA people getting in to the ring either.  At some point of the time, it becomes necessary to stop banging the body out like young people do.


And... that's what you said.  There was a point in this thread, you were basically just writing word salad, so I understand completely that you don't remember what you wrote.


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## zenfrog (Mar 1, 2022)

GuitaristDog87 said:


> Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons.  I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.


The style that makes you happy.


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