# Spinning Back kicks.



## Touch Of Death (Sep 30, 2012)

So I was taught that the spinning Back kick is simply a reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick; however I have also seen them done as a pirouette with the kicking leg cocked high. Which one do you advocate? or do you see them as two useful concepts? un-useful?
Sean


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## Sukerkin (Sep 30, 2012)

I learned spinning reverse kicks as straight, hook, axe, roundhouse, one-step etc.  There are quite a number of variations.  Most, if not all, in my opinion, fall into the 'too flash' category; which, as we all know, is a subset of the 'do not use in the Street (TM)' category .


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## Sensei_Dez (Sep 30, 2012)

back kick to me implies a thrusting motion so "reverse close kneel, look  over your shoulder, and kick" is what I'd say, that's how I do them,  the other spinning versions we give different names(spinning hook kick is one), both are flashy  true, but if you set up for them properly they can be useful, that's how  you finish someone who's been hit around already, but I personally  wouldn't use them in self defense either.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 30, 2012)

I find back kicks useful if Youre already standing side on, mostly with Your front foot. Just pivot, turn, pick up, kick. Other than that, if Youre more squared up, I prefer not.


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## Egon (Oct 1, 2012)

There are many variations practiced. I believe use of them in street vary from person to person. There are people fast enough and with perfect timing which can use it on the street., but I believe one shouldn't rely too much on those tehniques or that they should be given significant meaning in teaching of self defense.

I see two options:

If and only if you are in side position towards your attacker and you have really mastered kicks, reverse side kick to mid section could work; most of street thugs really don't except it and they don't guard themselves. Bad thing is anyone can grab your ankle and twist it, which is not good at all.

If you are attacked by two, you should always keep straight line with them with you on the top, but if you find yourself in the middle, back kick could be useful because it's strong and fast kick behind you back and you don't have to lose focus of attacker in front (but back kick I am talking about actually isn't spinning or reverse). Here again is danger of grab'n'twist, but less because this is non turning kick so it's faster and we can maintain better stability if someone grabs of because of the body position and pull leg out of the grab, which neither isn't the case with side kick.

These are just possible options, that could work, but again I would think twice before using it and thinking twice in self defense isn't good.


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## crushing (Oct 1, 2012)

I think pirouette-style can be pretty and demonstrate graceful flexibility and control as part of a form or kata, but a bit telegraphed when used against an opponent.  The more similar you can make techniques appear initially, the more you shorten the reaction time needed for the application of a counter.

To Sukerkin's point, it may not be technique you would use as an attack, but perhaps one that would be useful should you get turned somewhat or out of position.  I've been surprised at how close someone can be to an opponent and still tag the opponent in the back of the head with this kick.


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## MJS (Oct 1, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> So I was taught that the spinning Back kick is simply a reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick; however I have also seen them done as a pirouette with the kicking leg cocked high. Which one do you advocate? or do you see them as two useful concepts? un-useful?
> Sean



When I first learned this kick, I did it exactly as you described.  However, I'm currently doing them with the leg cocked high, which when thrown, appears to be more of a side kick, however, after being hit with a few of these, they're still effective..lol.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2012)

Egon said:


> There are many variations practiced. I believe use of them in street vary from person to person. There are people fast enough and with perfect timing which can use it on the street., but I believe one shouldn't rely too much on those tehniques or that they should be given significant meaning in teaching of self defense.
> 
> I see two options:
> 
> ...



Thing is, its also not fun having Your Wrist/Forearm seized. Especially if its Your, say, Right Arm, and Their Right did the grabbing. Then Leftie comes right over the top. Having striking limbs grabbed just isnt good for a Striker. Kicking is only riskier in the sense that Youre on one foot. Other than that, the risk is about equal. If someones fast enough to catch a kick, Theyre fast enough to catch a punch. Well, probably.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 1, 2012)

One of my friends throw them the second way. It's really effective at first, and hurts, also really quick. However, after a while of sparring, as long as im looking for the kick, i can generally see it coming and avoid it.


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## Zenjael (Oct 1, 2012)

There are a number of ways which employ it. I prefer the methods which keep ones head turned enough to keep an eye on the target. A lot of WTF people have what's called a donkey kick of sorts. They don't look, just pray they hit. 

looking also gives more control. Tucking the leg is great if you intend to bring it back forward or to the side to keep on kicking.


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## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> There are a number of ways which employ it. I prefer the methods which keep ones head turned enough to keep an eye on the target. A lot of WTF people have what's called a donkey kick of sorts. They don't look, just pray they hit.
> 
> looking also gives more control. Tucking the leg is great if you intend to bring it back forward or to the side to keep on kicking.



Nothing like disrespecting others arts. I can do ( as many others can), having been taught to do it properly, a back kick without actually looking at the target behind me and I will connect everytime, it's called technique and learning it properly. People can do techniques differently, it doesn't mean you can slag off someones techniques just because you can't do it, if that was the case you would make very long posts slagging off most if not all techniques.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 1, 2012)

Egon said:


> There are many variations practiced. I believe use of them in street vary from person to person. There are people fast enough and with perfect timing which can use it on the street., but I believe one shouldn't rely too much on those tehniques or that they should be given significant meaning in teaching of self defense.
> 
> I see two options:
> 
> ...



In the Hapkido I learned, we had a back kick such as the second you described. It was normally taught as a kick to the neck/head, almost like a mule kick. It can of course, also be used to strike a knee, groin, solar plexus, or head/neck.

We also had two spinning hook kicks. One to the waist area, the other to the opponent's ankle. Inasmuch as they are spinning kicks, they tend to be very fast and powerfull. I doubt the waist kick could be caught, I am quite sure the ankle kick could not be since it is so unexpected, and would require the opponent to reach down awkwardly to try to catch it. The spin kick is most effective with proper technique. Stepping forward to on the toe and pushing off the now back leg into a kick is powerful. However, stepping just forward of the lead foot, with the back foot, then pivoting using both toes and legs, produces much faster spin. That is a dangerous kick to try and grab at the waist. At the ankle, probably impossible. The ankle of the opponent's plant foot is the target of your heel. That will break the opponent's ankle rendering him unable to fight. For the ankle kick, you should fall forward on both hands, putting all concentration and power into the kick, none into balance.



Cyriacus said:


> Thing is, its also not fun having Your Wrist/Forearm seized. Especially if its Your, say, Right Arm, and Their Right did the grabbing. Then Leftie comes right over the top. Having striking limbs grabbed just isnt good for a Striker. Kicking is only riskier in the sense that Youre on one foot. Other than that, the risk is about equal. *If someones fast enough to catch a kick, Theyre fast enough to catch a punch. Well, probably*.



Do you think a kick is usually faster or just more powerful? And if they catch your right hand/wrist with their right hand, would they not be suseptible to grapling techniques? Not trying to be confrontational or 'better,' just curious of your opinion. And of course, all depends on both person's speed and training. If I am good and fast, but your are better and faster, you will make me look like quite a chump.

EDIT:  I occurs to me I should point out that I am thinking more along the lines of a non-MA fighter, even good and experienced.  MA fighters would be a little different, as you never know what they have been trained in, or against.  But I would still say the ankle kick would be very effective, and anyone who could avoid it would be fortunate.  Any who disagree, feel free to say so and state why.  I am always here to learn.  It is one of the things that is nice about MT.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Nothing like disrespecting others arts. I can do ( as many others can), having been taught to do it properly, a back kick without actually looking at the target behind me and I will connect everytime, it's called technique and learning it properly. People can do techniques differently, it doesn't mean you can slag off someones techniques just because you can't do it, if that was the case you would make very long posts slagging off most if not all techniques.


If im not mistaken, in not sighting the target, you dont have to turn as far, thereby making the kick fire off faster than if you did. And since it goes straight up and back as if you were kicking something behind you, you wont miss, as long as you were aligned with the target to begin with, and fire the kick straight in and not off to the side.
Theres absolutely nothing wrong with it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> If im not mistaken, in not sighting the target, you dont have to turn as far, thereby making the kick fire off faster than if you did. And since it goes straight up and back as if you were kicking something behind you, you wont miss, as long as you were aligned with the target to begin with, and fire the kick straight in and not off to the side.
> Theres absolutely nothing wrong with it.



There certainly isn't, it's just another weapon in the arsenal. I can also do the other ways described here, it's just knowing what's appropriate for the situation. I rather dislike it when posts say 'so and so' style is rubbish, WTF is not a style I do but all the same a bit more respect wouldn't go amiss, I doubt any style has kicks that they just throw out and hope they hit.


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## Egon (Oct 1, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Thing is, its also not fun having Your Wrist/Forearm seized. Especially if its Your, say, Right Arm, and Their Right did the grabbing. Then Leftie comes right over the top. Having striking limbs grabbed just isnt good for a Striker. Kicking is only riskier in the sense that Youre on one foot. Other than that, the risk is about equal. If someones fast enough to catch a kick, Theyre fast enough to catch a punch. Well, probably.



I think grabbing a foot while someone tryes to kick you with it in the middle section is pretty natural response. I remember that everytime someone new comes to dojo it's their first defend against that kick. I think it has to be a masterpiece of kick to avoid possibility of grabbing. It's hard to grab while kick is sucesfull, probably resulting in injury, but I believe that any flaws in precision, timing, or speed, could easily be punished with grabbing; and spinning kicks in the street can easily go wrong.



oftheherd1 said:


> In the Hapkido I learned, we had a back kick such as the second you described. It was normally taught as a kick to the neck/head, almost like a mule kick. It can of course, also be used to strike a knee, groin, solar plexus, or head/neck.
> 
> We also had two spinning hook kicks. One to the waist area, the other to the opponent's ankle. Inasmuch as they are spinning kicks, they tend to be very fast and powerfull. I doubt the waist kick could be caught, I am quite sure the ankle kick could not be since it is so unexpected, and would require the opponent to reach down awkwardly to try to catch it. The spin kick is most effective with proper technique. Stepping forward to on the toe and pushing off the now back leg into a kick is powerful. However, stepping just forward of the lead foot, with the back foot, then pivoting using both toes and legs, produces much faster spin. That is a dangerous kick to try and grab at the waist. At the ankle, probably impossible. The ankle of the opponent's plant foot is the target of your heel. That will break the opponent's ankle rendering him unable to fight. For the ankle kick, you should fall forward on both hands, putting all concentration and power into the kick, none into balance.



In my second example, talking about back kick, I was sure that terminology will confuse us, since many call this kick different and many in Hapkido or Taekwondo even doesn't learn it. In back kick as I learned it, you are kicking behind your back while staying full front with your body (upper body goes slightly toward ground), with toes pointed to the ground, foot slightly bended. But it also can be done with with turning / spinning.

Same as I answered to Cyriacus, if those kicks were performed with perfect timing, speed, and precision, it probably would be impossible to grab, but majority of ma's practicioners even when hitting boards don't do those kicks so good, not even talking about street where adrenaline pumps kick in; I believe that grabs are pretty natural response so flaws in kick can be easily punished.

But talking about kicks to mid section; while practicing with many people, I saw that grabbing is response while mid section is attacked, never saw anyone trying to grab kick that goes low or high.

I think grabbing is threat while kicking to mid section, even more then fact that you are on one leg while kicking.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 1, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> There certainly isn't, it's just another weapon in the arsenal. I can also do the other ways described here, it's just knowing what's appropriate for the situation. I rather dislike it when posts say 'so and so' style is rubbish, WTF is not a style I do but all the same a bit more respect wouldn't go amiss, I doubt any style has kicks that they just throw out and hope they hit.



WTF people usually look out of the corner of the eye.  Well this one does.  And I defy anyone to detect a telegraph of, or catch, a really good practitioners back kick.  It's about 0.2 seconds, start to finish.  By the time you see it, it's already too late.  Even those who can read and anticipate will only have time for a flinch reaction like crossed arms in front of the upper chest. 

That said there are multiple ways to skin a cat, and it's doable without looking too. 

Gnarlie


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## Zenjael (Oct 1, 2012)

> Nothing like disrespecting others arts.



Uh I don't think referring to a kick with its legitimate name apart from being a back kick is being disrespectful. It's a donkey kick, Ive heard multiple instructurs refer to it as such. Perhaps we are speaking of different kicks. Or do you intend to take offense to calling a horse stance just that?



> having been taught to do it properly, a back kick without actually  looking at the target behind me and I will connect everytime, it's  called technique and learning it properly. People can do techniques  differently, it doesn't mean you can slag off someones techniques just  because you can't do it, if that was the case you would make very long  posts slagging off most if not all techniques.



It was mentioned before that the entire kick takes .2 seconds estimated to deliver. That's a slow kick. I came from WTF originally, and I love MOST of their kicks. This is a kick which while powerful, is useless, at least in my opinion. 

People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh. 

The not looking leaves one open to a lot of surprises, and it banks too heavily on you having surprise on your side, fanshion, and greater speed. Chances are though, those are fatal assumptions.

I like the donkey kick, but the shotokan reverse side kick allows, for me, far greater versatility to keep attacking.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Do you think a kick is usually faster or just more powerful? And if they catch your right hand/wrist with their right hand, would they not be suseptible to grapling techniques? Not trying to be confrontational or 'better,' just curious of your opinion. And of course, all depends on both person's speed and training. If I am good and fast, but your are better and faster, you will make me look like quite a chump.
> 
> EDIT:  I occurs to me I should point out that I am thinking more along the lines of a non-MA fighter, even good and experienced.  MA fighters would be a little different, as you never know what they have been trained in, or against.  But I would still say the ankle kick would be very effective, and anyone who could avoid it would be fortunate.  Any who disagree, feel free to say so and state why.  I am always here to learn.  It is one of the things that is nice about MT.



Id have to say that it depends. A front, side, or round kick can come in pretty fast. A back kick can also be pretty fast if youre already a bit rotated. Of course it isnt faster, and punching is easier to make non-telegraphic, however, trained or untrained both can be fast enough, particularly since between untrained and especially inexperienced people, kicking doesnt happen all that often in the first place.

Yes, theyd be susceptible to grappling techniques as well, but this is presuming You threw a punch, They grabbed it, then swung Their other arm in. Your first priority would have to be not getting hit, followed by trying to close right in and grab on to something. To be fair though, they could let go with Their right hand, and get You around the neck. Its hard to say, since speed, force, skill, experience, and luck will always be a little bit unpredictable. If They grabbed Your right with Their left, then immediately threw a left leg kick, lets say a stamping like kick to the body or knee depending on the distance, how do you grapple that?

For ankle kicks, Id argue that kicks to the leg in general are hard to avoid. Especially since a leg check is basically acknowledging that, accepting it, and just giving it something a big less damaging to crash into. And if You distract Them with punches or somesuch, They cant block what They cant see coming. That being said, personally i find it easier to put more power into a leg kick around the knee or thigh, and that going as low as the ankle, for Me personally, sacrifices some force.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2012)

Egon said:


> I think grabbing a foot while someone tryes to kick you with it in the middle section is pretty natural response. I remember that everytime someone new comes to dojo it's their first defend against that kick. I think it has to be a masterpiece of kick to avoid possibility of grabbing. It's hard to grab while kick is sucesfull, probably resulting in injury, but I believe that any flaws in precision, timing, or speed, could easily be punished with grabbing; and spinning kicks in the street can easily go wrong.



You need to see a kick coming, in order to grab it. Same can be said of a Punch. Punches are naturally a bit less telegraphic, unless Youre a moron. But if You do see it coming, why not just grab it? Since You can just grab a kick.

I dont disagree that spinning kicks are riskier, but that doesnt make them unreliable. In a fight, the aggressor in an adrenalised, altered emotional state. They could be angry, drunk, high, or just in the mood for some senseless violence, or They could be mugging You, or whatever. In all of those but the last one, They probably wouldnt be caring too much about what You are doing, let alone noticing. Theyre trying to hurt You, not analyse whether or not Youre throwing a punch or kick. If Youre in a situation where the other person isnt charging forward at close range, by all means, back kick.

Laymans terms: If the range is right, and Youre in some *semblance* of a stance, itd probably work fine. Im more worried about being at close range, but being just outside hand-to-hand range, than them grabbing a leg.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Uh I don't think referring to a kick with its legitimate name apart from being a back kick is being disrespectful. It's a donkey kick, Ive heard multiple instructurs refer to it as such. Perhaps we are speaking of different kicks. Or do you intend to take offense to calling a horse stance just that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"In theory, there is a defence against every fathomable attack. In theory, a Boxer knows how to successfully block every Punch in Boxing. So why does the Boxer still get hit, in a Boxing Match?" -Me. Though Im sure its been said differently by others.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 1, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> You need to see a kick coming, in order to grab it. Same can be said of a Punch. Punches are naturally a bit less telegraphic, unless Youre a moron. But if You do see it coming, why not just grab it? Since You can just grab a kick.
> 
> I dont disagree that spinning kicks are riskier, but that doesnt make them unreliable. In a fight, the aggressor in an adrenalised, altered emotional state. They could be angry, drunk, high, or just in the mood for some senseless violence, or They could be mugging You, or whatever. In all of those but the last one, They probably wouldnt be caring too much about what You are doing, let alone noticing. Theyre trying to hurt You, not analyse whether or not Youre throwing a punch or kick. If Youre in a situation where the other person isnt charging forward at close range, by all means, back kick.
> 
> Laymans terms: If the range is right, and Youre in some *semblance* of a stance, itd probably work fine. Im more worried about being at close range, but being just outside hand-to-hand range, than them grabbing a leg.


The fact that something is risky, does make it less reliable; hence, the risk.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 1, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> "In theory, there is a defence against every fathomable attack. In theory, a Boxer knows how to successfully block every Punch in Boxing. So why does the Boxer still get hit, in a Boxing Match?" -Me. Though Im sure its been said differently by others.


Actually, you would be surprised at just how boring it can be watching two evenly matched fighters attempt to hit each other for eight rounds.


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## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Uh I don't think referring to a kick with its legitimate name apart from being a back kick is being disrespectful. It's a donkey kick, Ive heard multiple instructurs refer to it as such. Perhaps we are speaking of different kicks. Or do you intend to take offense to calling a horse stance just that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Don't be obtuse, it wasn't the fact you called it a donkey kick, it was the fact you were disrepectful to WTF people...as you know.
As for the rest...yeah, right, don't forget we've seen you sparring.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 2, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> It was mentioned before that the entire kick takes .2 seconds estimated to deliver. That's a slow kick. I came from WTF originally, and I love MOST of their kicks. This is a kick which while powerful, is useless, at least in my opinion.
> 
> People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.
> 
> ...



How long is it since you came from WTF?  I think either things have developed since you left, or you didn't ever get back kicked by someone who's developed that kick into a gun.  Or both. 

If you rely on looking for a turn of the back as a signal, you're hit.  It happens at the same time as the kick. 

Top level competitors, who train nothing but kicking and countering kicks, all day every day, get caught with this kick often.  In comparison Alex, you'd be a sitting duck. 

You're entitled to you're opinion, but it's likely to earn you a nasty surprise when you eventually meet a decent full contact kicker. 

Gnarlie


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## Jaeimseu (Oct 2, 2012)

We usually don't throw back kick off the line. It's most commonly a counter to your opponents round kick. Not too many surprises from your opponent when they are standing on one leg in mid-kick.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 2, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> We usually don't throw back kick off the line. It's most commonly a counter to your opponents round kick. Not too many surprises from your opponent when they are standing on one leg in mid-kick.



Exactly.  People that insist back kick is high risk or can be easily countered by X, Y, Z sequence of techniques are likely 1) using the kick at inappropriate times and / or 2) have never been up against a good back kicker.  

One moment you're doing your normal kicking thing, the next you're eating heel.  There's very little detectable motion in between, and those that manage to detect it are not in a position to do anything about it because they're on one foot.

Part of the philosophy of Taekwondo is to work with the world while you make your opponent work against it.  Back kick is a prime example of that principle in action - it'll catch you off balance, or out of alignment, and there's no chance of a counter.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 2, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> So I was taught that the spinning Back kick is simply a reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick; however I have also seen them done as a pirouette with the kicking leg cocked high. Which one do you advocate? or do you see them as two useful concepts? un-useful?
> Sean



TOD, I just realised I haven't answered your question yet.  I advocate back kick with the kicking knee and the toes pointed towards the ground, turning out to a maximum of 45 degrees ish.  Turning out further changes the kick into a back side kick, which deterimentally alters the mechanics of the kick, the amount of telegraph movement prior to the kick, the speed of the turn, the muscle groups used and the amount of body weight that can be transferred into the foot.

If the kicking leg is brought through knees together, tight to the standing leg, the speed of the turn is dramatically increased.  It's also the straightest path to the target, wasting the least time and energy.  If combined with a slide, a slight jump or a counter foot switch, it's even faster.

One can also get more power out of the back muscles and gluteus than the hip flexors and the knee, which would be providing the power in back side kick at the point of contact.

In my view, the high cocked leg is slower and telegraphed.  It also invites a nut shot - even if the opponent doesn't really know what they are doing, if they manage to get a kick off, even if it's late, it's guided nicely along the thigh directly to the twig and berries.

So, knee down for me.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> The fact that something is risky, does make it less reliable; hence, the risk.


Of course - Initially, I did say that I wouldnt use it unless I was already turned sideways a bit. And the range probably isnt too easy to get to. In fact, I prefer spinning backfists, but thats personal preference.



Touch Of Death said:


> Actually, you would be surprised at just how boring it can be watching two evenly matched fighters attempt to hit each other for eight rounds.


I actually dont watch Boxing very much for that very reason. They do manage to hit each other quite often though, despite Their skill.
I like Boxing, but I prefer other systems and such for entertainment value


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 2, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> It was mentioned before that the entire kick takes .2 seconds estimated to deliver. That's a slow kick. I came from WTF originally, and I love MOST of their kicks. This is a kick which while powerful, is useless, at least in my opinion.
> 
> People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.



And anyone who has seen your videos KNOWS that you're every bit as phenomenal a martial artist as you claim, and that anyone attempting a spinning back kick will probably die instantly when confronted by your fabulousness. You could probably just glare them to death. 
Or have your father perform some medical procedure that is unkown to the rest of the worlds medical professionals.

That you think you'd be able to so easily defeat anybody who uses a spinning back kick tells me two things.
1 - You do not know how to properly execute a spinning back kick, much as your ridiculous claim that a rear naked choke could not be used against you.
2 - You're still as ignorant and arrogant as ever.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 2, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> ...
> 
> People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.
> 
> ...



The Hapkido that I learned was mostly defensive (granted that you can turn most defensive moves into offense with little or no modification). However, our back kick was more against an opponent that was already behind us. You must always be prepared for the fact that you may have to fight more than one opponent. We step back for range and power, then kick with what was the back foot.

EDIT: I meant to ask if you could describe you side-knee slap to the thigh. I slap with my palm or back hand. Anything else with the arm/hand is some kind of punch and imply more power. Most strikes with the leg/foot, since the leg/foot should be even more powerful that the arm/hand, simply cannot be well described as a slap, neither from the aspect of power, nor the body part used.



Cyriacus said:


> ...
> 
> Yes, theyd be susceptible to grappling techniques as well, *but this is presuming You threw a punch*, They grabbed it, then swung Their other arm in. *Your first priority would have to be not getting hit*, followed by trying to close right in and grab on to something. To be fair though, they could let go with Their right hand, and get You around the neck. Its hard to say, since speed, force, skill, experience, and luck will always be a little bit unpredictable. If They grabbed Your right with Their left, then immediately threw a left leg kick, lets say a stamping like kick to the body or knee depending on the distance, how do you grapple that?
> 
> For ankle kicks, Id argue that kicks to the leg in general are hard to avoid. Especially since a leg check is basically acknowledging that, accepting it, and just giving it something a big less damaging to crash into. And if You distract Them with punches or somesuch, They cant block what They cant see coming. *That being said, personally i find it easier to put more power into a leg kick around the knee or thigh, and that going as low as the ankle, for Me personally, sacrifices some force*.



No need to throw a punch at your opponent first. As I envision what was first described, being grabbed, contact has already been made. Most Hapkido moves seek to prevent the opponent from punching or kicking effectively. He grabs your hand, grab his back and pull. He can't punch with the left hand, and exposes his right side, including his right arm, to counter attack.

From the way you describe your kicking techniques, I suspect if you learned the spinning ankle kick the way I did, it would become a favorite when the opportunity presented itself. 

Not that it would be your favorite kick of all time, since I personally don't believe there should be one. You favorite should be the one that best fits defense at the moment. Same with any other technique. But I really think you would like it. It is fast in execution, and quite powerful when it connects.

Pretty much all else you said I agree with.  Thanks for the thought out reply.


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2012)

Egon said:


> There are many variations practiced. I believe use of them in street vary from person to person. There are people fast enough and with perfect timing which can use it on the street., but I believe one shouldn't rely too much on those tehniques or that they should be given significant meaning in teaching of self defense.
> 
> I see two options:
> 
> ...



IMO, unless the kick is done poorly, I'd find it rather difficult, if not impossible, to actually grab the foot.  Now, if you're talking about stepping off line, or up into the kick, depending on the kick thats thrown, capturing the leg, and then working for some sort of takedown, sweep, etc, then yes, that I can see.  Otherwise, if the goal is to try and catch the foot to do some sort of fancy lock, then IMO, I can think of better things that could or should be done.


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## Zenjael (Oct 2, 2012)

> Nothing like disrespecting others arts. I can do ( as many others can), having been taught to do it properly, a back kick without actually looking at the target behind me and I will connect everytime, it's called technique and learning it properly. People can do techniques differently, it doesn't mean you can slag off someones techniques just because you can't do it, if that was the case you would make very long posts slagging off most if not all techniques.



Well, I meant no disparagement or disrespect to any technique or art. So that being said, if you think it there, you are creating it. I will say this however. I too can alternatively do a reverse kick as you described, and in the tucked form. I prefer the tucked because it allow me to stabilize and not break the sacred rule of taking your eye off the opponent. But you know what? Do the donkey kick. It's powerful, unless you're not looking, they pull a gun and you're donezo.

I think survival, and a lot of WTF kicking, while effective is designed to counteract other WTF kicks, not practical street survival experiences.



> There certainly isn't, it's just another weapon in the arsenal. I can also do the other ways described here, it's just knowing what's appropriate for the situation. I rather dislike it when posts say 'so and so' style is rubbish, WTF is not a style I do but all the same a bit more respect wouldn't go amiss, I doubt any style has kicks that they just throw out and hope they hit.



Now its my turn to point something out, if you'll give me the patience. I have trained, and teach WTF tae kwon do, it multiple system; jidokwan, moo duk kwan/tang soo do, and so on. It had it's time and place, but a lot of the kicks in the system are garbage. If you ever let your student defend themself on the street using a snap kick to defend themself anywhere but the chin and groin, a belt should be cut.

Tae kwon do may not have those shoot shoot shoot kicks which miss, but moo duk kwan does. I constantly stress economy to my students; why the heck throw a kick out if its GOING TO MISS. You going to hurt the air? I ask.

But you know what, having had a 3rd, taught at 3 schools, I can tell you exactly which kicks within the MDK system are effective, flash, and garbage. So don't peg me as being arrogantly disrespectful. I know my art.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> The Hapkido that I learned was mostly defensive (granted that you can turn most defensive moves into offense with little or no modification). However, our back kick was more against an opponent that was already behind us. You must always be prepared for the fact that you may have to fight more than one opponent. We step back for range and power, then kick with what was the back foot.
> 
> EDIT: I meant to ask if you could describe you side-knee slap to the thigh. I slap with my palm or back hand. Anything else with the arm/hand is some kind of punch and imply more power. Most strikes with the leg/foot, since the leg/foot should be even more powerful that the arm/hand, simply cannot be well described as a slap, neither from the aspect of power, nor the body part used.
> 
> ...





> No need to throw a punch at your opponent first. As I envision what was first described, being grabbed, contact has already been made. Most Hapkido moves seek to prevent the opponent from punching or kicking effectively. He grabs your hand, grab his back and pull. He can't punch with the left hand, and exposes his right side, including his right arm, to counter attack.



*Possibly - But He could pull Your hand as well, couldnt He? Exposing Your opposite side, and making it hard to hit back.*



> From the way you describe your kicking techniques, I suspect if you learned the spinning ankle kick the way I did, it would become a favorite when the opportunity presented itself.


Well, Im also not that good at spinning. Not for lack of trying over time, but with the exception of spinning backfists, I can do them, but I dont like doing them much. Not because I think theyre risky, or anything, I just dont get along with spinning 



> Not that it would be your favorite kick of all time, since I personally don't believe there should be one. You favorite should be the one that best fits defense at the moment. Same with any other technique. But I really think you would like it. It is fast in execution, and quite powerful when it connects.



Color Me curious...


> Pretty much all else you said I agree with.  Thanks for the thought out reply.



I enjoy good conversation, particularly about techniques. Its always interesting, if not just to discuss how other people do things differently to how I know how to, or simply prefer to. [/QUOTE]


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Well, I meant no disparagement or disrespect to any technique or art. So that being said, if you think it there, you are creating it. I will say this however. I too can alternatively do a reverse kick as you described, and in the tucked form. I prefer the tucked because it allow me to stabilize and not break the sacred rule of taking your eye off the opponent. But you know what? Do the donkey kick. It's powerful, unless you're not looking, they pull a gun and you're donezo.



Im morbidly curious. How much of a difference do You seriously think it would make if They pulled the gun whilst You were looking at Them? Your chances are low either way, and regardless of range. And how on earth are they going to produce and fire a gun faster than You can do a back kick?



Zenjael said:


> I think survival, and a lot of WTF kicking, while effective is designed to counteract other WTF kicks, not practical street survival experiences.
> 
> *Depends on the circumstances, but mostly due to range, sure.*





> Now its my turn to point something out, if you'll give me the patience. I have trained, and teach WTF tae kwon do, it multiple system; jidokwan, moo duk kwan/tang soo do, and so on. It had it's time and place, but a lot of the kicks in the system are garbage. If you ever let your student defend themself on the street using a snap kick to defend themself anywhere but the chin and groin, a belt should be cut.



Yeah - With the exception of a front kick to the head, snapping Your kicks, I at least, dont like very much. Even for the groin, unless its a distraction. Its not the kicks, its the snap. Kicking through is important for power.

You know, I think that in the whole time that Youve been on MartialTalk, this is the first time Ive actually agreed with something Youve said, without needing to have too many reservations or 'with the exception of's. Heh. In point sparring, however, snap kicks make perfect sense. Which then makes it come down to the teacher to distinguish.



> Tae kwon do may not have those shoot shoot shoot kicks which miss, but moo duk kwan does. I constantly stress economy to my students; why the heck throw a kick out if its GOING TO MISS. You going to hurt the air? I ask.



I dont like that either. Wow! Number two in a row 



> But you know what, having had a 3rd, taught at 3 schools, I can tell you exactly which kicks within the MDK system are effective, flash, and garbage. So don't peg me as being arrogantly disrespectful. I know my art.



And now I get to break the pattern, and say that its apparently Your art among however many others, and that You know definitively all there is to know about the kicks and Their applications and such.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 2, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Well, I meant no disparagement or disrespect to any technique or art. So that being said, if you think it there, you are creating it. I will say this however. I too can alternatively do a reverse kick as you described, and in the tucked form. I prefer the tucked because it allow me to stabilize and not break the sacred rule of taking your eye off the opponent. But you know what? Do the donkey kick. It's powerful, unless you're not looking, they pull a gun and you're donezo.
> 
> I think survival, and a lot of WTF kicking, while effective is designed to counteract other WTF kicks, not practical street survival experiences.
> 
> ...



Yeah it's pretty lazy of you to blame other people for taking umbrage at things you probably should have worded differently in the first place. 

It's had it's time and place but a lot of the kicks are garbage?  Sounds pretty disrespectful to me. 

Only in your fantasy land is somebody pulling a gun in under 0.2 seconds, and only in your fantasy land does it make a difference what kick you might be doing at the time.

I don't think you're in a position to criticise air kicking, I counted quite a few in your little video.  As I recall, you spent a lot of your time on one leg waving air kicks, which is just the time when you're likely to get back kicked. 

Having a 3rd Dan doesn't mean you know your art, know what you are talking about, or have the right to disrespect an entire portion of the martial arts community. Neither does teaching. I've seen terrible 3rd dans and terrible teachers. 

It's how you conduct yourself here and now on this forum that reveals whether or not you know what you are talking about, and I think we can all draw our own conclusions there; but just in case my British indirectness passes you by: you're not a credible source of information in my opinion.

Gnarlie


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> Yeah it's pretty lazy of you to blame other people for taking umbrage at things you probably should have worded differently in the first place.
> 
> It's had it's time and place but a lot of the kicks are garbage?  Sounds pretty disrespectful to me.
> 
> ...



In addition to that, when the heck did we start bringing weapons into this discussion anyways? LOL!  I mean, I dont know about anyone else, but anyone attempting a kick against any weapon, is living in a fantasy land.  This isn't a Chuck Norris movie! LOL!  No disrespect towards Chuck, just sayin'. 

And you are correct....the rank that one wears isnt an indicator of skill.  Sure, I see how it is assumed that if one is wearing a BB, be it a 1st dan or 8th dan, that said person should know what they're talking about, however, thats not always the case.


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## Egon (Oct 2, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> You need to see a kick coming, in order to grab it. Same can be said of a Punch. Punches are naturally a bit less telegraphic, unless Youre a moron. But if You do see it coming, why not just grab it? Since You can just grab a kick.
> 
> I dont disagree that spinning kicks are riskier, but that doesnt make them unreliable. In a fight, the aggressor in an adrenalised, altered emotional state. They could be angry, drunk, high, or just in the mood for some senseless violence, or They could be mugging You, or whatever. In all of those but the last one, They probably wouldnt be caring too much about what You are doing, let alone noticing. Theyre trying to hurt You, not analyse whether or not Youre throwing a punch or kick. If Youre in a situation where the other person isnt charging forward at close range, by all means, back kick.
> 
> Laymans terms: If the range is right, and Youre in some *semblance* of a stance, itd probably work fine. Im more worried about being at close range, but being just outside hand-to-hand range, than them grabbing a leg.



Sure they are not unreliable, but I don't think they should be given some siginificant meaning in teaching self defense; _but it's meaningless to discuss about it because it really comes to individual will he use it on the street_. Anyone should use what works for him - I think spinning wouldn't work for me so.. I just wanted to make point about risk of grabbing while kicking in mid section.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 2, 2012)

Well, the way I see a spinning back kick done practically on the street is, lets say a guy comes rushing at you. It really isn't your first instinct to attack him so you do a 180 on him and parry him on by, by using his force against him and, of course, adding your own energy into the mix, ending you in a closed kneel position; however you catch his buddy rushing at you, out of the corner of your eye. Its simply too late to turn the other way; so, you just drill him with a rear kick. Tadahhhh! That was a spinning back kick


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## Gnarlie (Oct 2, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Well, the way I see a spinning back kick done practically on the street is, lets say a guy comes rushing at you. It really isn't your first instinct to attack him so you do a 180 on him and parry him on by, by using his force against him and, of course, adding your own energy into the mix, ending you in a closed kneel position; however you catch his buddy rushing at you, out of the corner of your eye. Its simply too late to turn the other way; so, you just drill him with a rear kick. Tadahhhh! That was a spinning back kick



If you search for 'Brutal spin kick knockout in street fight' on Youtube, there's a pretty practical (if grisly, look away and turn the sound down if squeamish) example of how it can work live.  And the guy isnt even a fast kicker.  Surprise and catching a moment of imbalance are key.  The poor victim of this kick is surprised, is on one leg as the kick goes in, and doesn't have a chance.  You'll have to sign in to confirm your age, it's age restricted!


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## Egon (Oct 2, 2012)

MJS said:


> IMO, unless the kick is done poorly, I'd find it rather difficult, if not impossible, to actually grab the foot.  Now, if you're talking about stepping off line, or up into the kick, depending on the kick thats thrown, capturing the leg, and then working for some sort of takedown, sweep, etc, then yes, that I can see.  Otherwise, if the goal is to try and catch the foot to do some sort of fancy lock, then IMO, I can think of better things that could or should be done.



I don't know did you readed my later posts; but yes; I believe it's easy for a spinning kick to go wrong, many people go wrong while hitting boards, and here we are talking about street which means adrenaline, slippy floor maybe, and other kinds of non friendly for spinning surroundings. Any flow in speed, accuracy, or precision in this kind of defense can be easily punished, and there is a bigger chance of occuring flaws while spinning then in bunch of other tehniques.

After that I said that my experience from training is that from a kick in mid section, grabbing is pretty natural response; and yes even untrained people know how to step in kick and twist it.

I hold spinning kicks are legitimate tool for self defense, but I really don't give significant meaning to them in self defense training (but I must admit after reading this thread, I will try to perform turning side kick in next realistic scenario training).


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## Jaeimseu (Oct 2, 2012)

I wouldn't recommend trying to grab a back kick, unless the kicker is terrible. You'd be much more likely to either eat the kick, or break your fingers, hand, or wrist. Grabbing something coming directly at you at a very high rate of speed is dangerous. If you have a high rate of success grabbing someone's back kick like this, I submit that that person doesn't know how to properly execute back kick. 

If you're thinking of parrying or side-stepping and going for the grab, I'd say the same thing. If my opponent is able to grab my back kick, I've done something wrong.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 2, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I wouldn't recommend trying to grab a back kick, unless the kicker is terrible. You'd be much more likely to either eat the kick, or break your fingers, hand, or wrist. Grabbing something coming directly at you at a very high rate of speed is dangerous. If you have a high rate of success grabbing someone's back kick like this, I submit that that person doesn't know how to properly execute back kick.
> 
> If you're thinking of parrying or side-stepping and going for the grab, I'd say the same thing. If my opponent is able to grab my back kick, I've done something wrong.



QFT.  It's like a bullet in and out.  At best it's flinch with the arms, or a coincidental piece of footwork allows evasion. 

Gnarlie


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## Zenjael (Oct 2, 2012)

> It's had it's time and place but a lot of the kicks are garbage?  Sounds pretty disrespectful to me.



In reference to this; most of the kicks involved in tricking evolved out of flashy TKD kicks. If you can find a legitimate practical and pragmatic use for any kick I name (which I consider among those garbage kicks) and it is within the realm of plausibly happening in either the street, or survival, I will take back what I said.



> I don't think you're in a position to criticise air kicking, I counted  quite a few in your little video.  As I recall, you spent a lot of your  time on one leg waving air kicks, which is just the time when you're  likely to get back kicked.



Then I hope you noticed my arms. They're there for defense, not to look pretty. And if you look closely, you'll also see me do just that.

The minute the other attempts to kick back, I kick above or below the knee negating. They want to charge in, easy front side-kick to jam them. And if they actually are pressing me, it's not hard to put the leg back down.  If you were to try to back-kick against me with my leg raised, you would find me on top of you before you even had your hips turned. It's common sense, when someone is turning, spinning, CHARGE.

I'm amazed people aren't bringing up the two easiest counters to a spinning, or reverse kick. Move back or to the side, striking a foot or two in front of where you were, or as they turn, to charge in, striking the base leg or anything more vulnerable which is tactically valuable. You time it right, you can even kick their backfoot which can throw them forward off balance.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2012)

Egon said:


> Sure they are not unreliable, but I don't think they should be given some siginificant meaning in teaching self defense; _but it's meaningless to discuss about it because it really comes to individual will he use it on the street_. Anyone should use what works for him - I think spinning wouldn't work for me so.. I just wanted to make point about risk of grabbing while kicking in mid section.


I commented in My reply to oftheherd that I dont like spinning much either.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> In reference to this; most of the kicks involved in tricking evolved out of flashy TKD kicks. If you can find a legitimate practical and pragmatic use for any kick I name (which I consider among those garbage kicks) and it is within the realm of plausibly happening in either the street, or survival, I will take back what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Jaeimseu said:


> I wouldn't recommend trying to grab a back kick, unless the kicker is terrible. You'd be much more likely to either eat the kick, or break your fingers, hand, or wrist. Grabbing something coming directly at you at a very high rate of speed is dangerous. If you have a high rate of success grabbing someone's back kick like this, I submit that that person doesn't know how to properly execute back kick.
> 
> If you're thinking of parrying or side-stepping and going for the grab, I'd say the same thing. If my opponent is able to grab my back kick, I've done something wrong.








Defensively used Spinning Back Kick.
Options: 
Sidestep or Backstep.
Grab His Foot.
Strike the base leg.
Whine about not having Your hands up even though it would have gone right through Them.*

If Youre trying to use a back kick offensively, Youre neglecting many better options 

*Theres a reason You dont hold Your guard right in front of Your face. You end up hitting Yourself in the face if Your guard gets hit by just about anything linear.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 3, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> In reference to this; most of the kicks involved in tricking evolved out of flashy TKD kicks. If you can find a legitimate practical and pragmatic use for any kick I name (which I consider among those garbage kicks) and it is within the realm of plausibly happening in either the street, or survival, I will take back what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your first paragraph: it's not about the kicks, it's about what you are saying about an art that people feel strongly about.  You're art bashing.  It's sad. 

You included back kick as garbage.  I've shown you that it isn't, below. 

Your second paragraph: utter rubbish.  Even a shabby full contact player can get past that kind of tiptap front leg play.  And your arms?  They don't enter into the equation when you're on one leg; a good back kick will push them onto your chest and you onto your ***. 

3rd para: Shows you have no idea what you are talking about with this kick.  You charge, you lose.  Also, I'd avoid using 'you'.  It makes one sound personal.  If I personally back kicked you, you don't know what would happen.

People have already suggested that this is not a kick to throw off the line.  You don't seem to be listening to that.   It's one to throw when the opponent is off balance, mid step, or committed to an attack.  It's usually thrown defensively, moving backwards, as in the vid Cyriacus posted.  How are you going to do any of the countering you suggest when in the 0.2 seconds the kick takes to reach you, the first thing you have to do is regain your balance and get a foot back down before you can counter? 

Last para: Again, rubbish.   People aren't bringing up those counters because the people on this thread understand what a fast and devastating kick back kick is, and that those counters will only work if you manage to take a luckily timed step coincidentally.  This kick is thrown when you are off balance.  You won't be able to counter. This last paragraph tells me that you've never come up against a decent back kicker and you can't use it effectively yourself.  That doesn't make the kick 'garbage'.  A shoddy workman blames his tools.  

The best way to deal with your lack of understanding would be to acknowledge that you might not know everything, and ask the good people of this forum 'how can I make back kick work?', rather than regaling us with fantasy stories of how you would counter our kicks. 

I think you need to go test your theories against a good kicker. Everyone has a theory until they get hit. 

Gnarlie


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## Gnarlie (Oct 3, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Defensively used Spinning Back Kick.
> Options:
> Sidestep or Backstep.
> Grab His Foot.
> ...



Great example. 

That victim is in no position to step, kick, slide, grab or otherwise fly on Alex's magic carpet of fantasy martial arts, because he's committed fully to an attack, centre of gravity moving forward and on one leg. 

Let me guess Alex: you never commit fully to an attack. You're never off balance. You've got some fantastical way of attacking without ever disturbing your centre of gravity. 

Gnarlie


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## Jaeimseu (Oct 3, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> The minute the other attempts to kick back, I kick above or below the knee negating. They want to charge in, easy front side-kick to jam them. And if they actually are pressing me, it's not hard to put the leg back down.  If you were to try to back-kick against me with my leg raised, you would find me on top of you before you even had your hips turned. It's common sense, when someone is turning, spinning, CHARGE.
> 
> I'm amazed people aren't bringing up the two easiest counters to a spinning, or reverse kick. Move back or to the side, striking a foot or two in front of where you were, or as they turn, to charge in, striking the base leg or anything more vulnerable which is tactically valuable. You time it right, you can even kick their backfoot which can throw them forward off balance.


Do you read what other people are writing? 

It is readily apparent that you don't train/spar with people who know how to apply a back kick effectively. Back kick is highly effective as a simultaneous counter against round kick(really almost any kick that comes from the back leg). You are raising what if scenarios that don't happen against a good kicker. If you we're simply standing on one leg with your other leg raised, you could easily push the back kicker when he turned, but as has already been mentioned, this isn't the case. You wouldn't be just standing. You would be mid kick. If your kick wasn't committed, you would be mid slow kick and it would be that much easier to land the back kick. 

The back kick can be used offensively as we'll, for example a trap back kick or thrown after the opponent is already moving back. If used correctly, none of the "counters" you mention will work. 

A screwdriver is a garbage tool if you are using it to drive nails.


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## Mauthos (Oct 3, 2012)

All I have to say on the matter is if anyone remembers the famous Benny 'The Jet' Uquidez (SP?) fight against the Thai champ, Benny won the fight with a devastating spinning back kick that dropped the Thai fighter instantly, who was then unable to continue.

If I recall correctly he actually broke 4 ribs with that kick.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 3, 2012)

Mauthos said:


> All I have to say on the matter is if anyone remembers the famous Benny 'The Jet' Uquidez (SP?) fight against the Thai champ, Benny won the fight with a devastating spinning back kick that dropped the Thai fighter instantly, who was then unable to continue.
> 
> If I recall correctly he actually broke 4 ribs with that kick.


Theres also this.




1:28.

And just to move away from TKD a bit...




Sanshou. Same kick. Same application.

If We start moving into different methods of back kicking, We can find all sorts of stuff. Just search for it, and ye shall receive. Im just linking the best examples.


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## MJS (Oct 3, 2012)

Egon said:


> Sure they are not unreliable, but I don't think they should be given some siginificant meaning in teaching self defense; _but it's meaningless to discuss about it because it really comes to individual will he use it on the street_. Anyone should use what works for him - I think spinning wouldn't work for me so.. I just wanted to make point about risk of grabbing while kicking in mid section.



I gave my thoughts in post #31, but perhaps I'm still misunderstanding how one goes about grabbing the kick.  Again, I'm assuming you're talking about the leg first, rather than the actual foot.


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## Zero (Oct 3, 2012)

Lovely kick posted by Cyriacus and Gnarlie, really enjoyable to watch (not to receive though!). Of course, as posted by Cyriacus, you could say he should have had his guard up when he threw his kick which may have prevented a KO or knock down but that's about it. 

I also think the reverse kick at abdomin level, such as Benny the Jet made famous and used so devastatingly again and again, is a real beuaty - in the right situation. I generally prefer to just push this straight back rather than any circling motion as I think it is quicker and less telegraphed that way. Have run onto this kind of kick myself when thought was getting the better of a more experienced opponent who I thought was backing away from me, he suckered me big time with that! You do learn though! When doing reverse or spinning techniques, I prefer to look over shoulder with head tucked down so jaw is protected by shoulder to make sure of target but as Tez said, when you know what you are doing and have good feel for distance then this may not be needed.

That said, I have seen some terrible reverse spinning kicks thrown over the years resulting in the attacker unbalancing themselves or being too smothered when throwing the kick - such as crashing into opponent and falling over. But this has always been by novices and the like can apply to any applicaiton when thrown by a novice.

Another applicaiton of the spining rear kick is using it as a low kick to the knee of your opponent, this can be a game-ender there and then if the knee is hit either straight on or from the side with power; don't have time to get the link but Andy Hug used this a couple of times at least to brilliant effect. I have practised this a lot after watching the late-great Andy use this but never applied it as yet myself...one day...


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## MJS (Oct 3, 2012)

Egon said:


> I don't know did you readed my later posts; but yes; I believe it's easy for a spinning kick to go wrong, many people go wrong while hitting boards, and here we are talking about street which means adrenaline, slippy floor maybe, and other kinds of non friendly for spinning surroundings. Any flow in speed, accuracy, or precision in this kind of defense can be easily punished, and there is a bigger chance of occuring flaws while spinning then in bunch of other tehniques.
> 
> After that I said that my experience from training is that from a kick in mid section, grabbing is pretty natural response; and yes even untrained people know how to step in kick and twist it.
> 
> I hold spinning kicks are legitimate tool for self defense, but I really don't give significant meaning to them in self defense training (but I must admit after reading this thread, I will try to perform turning side kick in next realistic scenario training).



Hmm...ok, disregard my last post.  I posted before I saw this.   As for spinning kicks...personally, I'm not a huge fan of them, for the obvious reason:  unless they're done quick and well timed, you're opening yourself up to potential trouble.  I've done then many times in sparring, and had mixed results.  Some of the time, I was lucky.  It was a well timed kick, non-telegraphed, and I landed it on them with great results.  The other times, well, I wasn't so lucky..lol.  If my rear is on the line, no, I'm probably not going to do a spinning kick.  

As for grabbing...perhaps there's still some misunderstanding.  I've trained side stepping and capturing the leg.  When you mention grabbing the kick, am I safe to assume this is what you mean?  You're not talking about grabbing the foot, are you?


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## MJS (Oct 3, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I wouldn't recommend trying to grab a back kick, unless the kicker is terrible. You'd be much more likely to either eat the kick, or break your fingers, hand, or wrist. Grabbing something coming directly at you at a very high rate of speed is dangerous. If you have a high rate of success grabbing someone's back kick like this, I submit that that person doesn't know how to properly execute back kick.
> 
> If you're thinking of parrying or side-stepping and going for the grab, I'd say the same thing. If my opponent is able to grab my back kick, I've done something wrong.



Yes!  This is what I was thinking as well!  When I'm sparring, I'm not thinking about grabbing a kick, and frankly, neither is the other guy I'm fighting.  Parrying or side stepping...sure.


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## MJS (Oct 3, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Then I hope you noticed my arms. They're there for defense, not to look pretty. And if you look closely, you'll also see me do just that.
> 
> The minute the other attempts to kick back, I kick above or below the knee negating. They want to charge in, easy front side-kick to jam them. And if they actually are pressing me, it's not hard to put the leg back down.  If you were to try to back-kick against me with my leg raised, you would find me on top of you before you even had your hips turned. It's common sense, when someone is turning, spinning, CHARGE.
> 
> I'm amazed people aren't bringing up the two easiest counters to a spinning, or reverse kick. Move back or to the side, striking a foot or two in front of where you were, or as they turn, to charge in, striking the base leg or anything more vulnerable which is tactically valuable. You time it right, you can even kick their backfoot which can throw them forward off balance.



OTOH, it's always amazed me, as to why someone would stand on 1 leg, and throw out multiple kicks.  Thats fine for flash, but thats about it.


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## Zero (Oct 3, 2012)

Personally, in case it was not obvious from my last post, my use and advocation of spinning kicks/techniques would generaly be limited to tournament use and particularly just stand-up striking with no freestyle or MMA component.  While there is a spot for everything, I do feel the risk of delivery of these kind of techniques is overshadowed by risk of rear choke/submisison or takedown if you are talking outside of the likes of a strict karate of TKD tournament.  The same would apply for street fights or SD where there are no rules that shield you from the risks flowing from exposing your back if such a move is not effective.


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## Zero (Oct 3, 2012)

MJS said:


> OTOH, it's always amazed me, as to why someone would stand on 1 leg, and throw out multiple kicks. Thats fine for flash, but thats about it.



Again, while I have not used these in tournaments, I do train mulitple kicks such as multiple front leg high snap kicks, very good for stability training but with the end game of these being applicable to a tournament fight I guess.  My sensei did use a front kick, first trying to hit you or feint and leaving leg up for when/if guard came down for second hit.  Like a couple of jabs thrown in quick succession or a feint. Obviously not something you would use twice in any fight against anyone with experience or one that you would use much at all over your career.  Absolutely acknowledge the longer a chap is on one leg the more likely of being open to a leg sweep etc but again this double kick can be done with effect, by some people, sometimes...  As said never actually tried to use it in a competiiton but do for fun in sparring (although note normally while against the juniors...so generally I guess you are right). But I don't see this as completely just for flash.

The same goes for throwing a front snap kick to left side of head and then instead of from dropping foot to ground, immediately reverse to hook kick with same leg in air and having heel hit right side of head.  You are right that generally these are flash and look super-cool in movies but I do practice these also, never tried it though in a fight. Again, applicaiton for sanctioned tournaments if at all, not for "real life".


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## MJS (Oct 3, 2012)

Zero said:


> Again, while I have not used these in tournaments, I do train mulitple kicks such as multiple front leg high snap kicks, very good for stability training but with the end game of these being applicable to a tournament fight I guess.  My sensei did use a front kick, first trying to hit you or feint and leaving leg up for when/if guard came down for second hit.  Like a couple of jabs thrown in quick succession or a feint. Obviously not something you would use twice in any fight against anyone with experience or one that you would use much at all over your career.  Absolutely acknowledge the longer a chap is on one leg the more likely of being open to a leg sweep etc but again this double kick can be done with effect, by some people, sometimes...  As said never actually tried to use it in a competiiton but do for fun in sparring (although note normally while against the juniors...so generally I guess you are right). But I don't see this as completely just for flash.
> 
> The same goes for throwing a front snap kick to left side of head and then instead of from dropping foot to ground, immediately reverse to hook kick with same leg in air and having heel hit right side of head.  You are right that generally these are flash and look super-cool in movies but I do practice these also, never tried it though in a fight. Again, applicaiton for sanctioned tournaments if at all, not for "real life".



To clarify, I've trained and thrown mult. kicks during sparring.  Low high roundhouse kicks, a low hook into a high roundhouse, etc.  I've had success, as I've caught the other guy off guard a few times.  However, there was a video on here, that Zenjael posted.  He's throwing out numerous air kicks, with from what I could see, no purpose behind them.  I'm also curious as to the power factor, once we start approaching any more than 2 kicks with the same leg.  Ex: Someone standing on 1 leg, throwing out 6 kicks.


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## grumpywolfman (Oct 3, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> So I was taught that the spinning Back kick is simply a reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick; however I have also seen them done as a pirouette with the kicking leg cocked high. Which one do you advocate? or do you see them as two useful concepts? un-useful?
> Sean



Hello,

I.M.O., the best use for spinning back kicks are for demonstration purposes only. Beautiful and powerful kicks, they illustrate great skill of the practioner and may be fun if you can pull one off in a tournament; however, not necessary or practical for self defense. _Please don't over do it when training these kicks_. Because of the great amount of torque that can be generated by spinning back kicks, you can easily cause an injury to your lower back that will require Chiropractic adjustment for many years to come.


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## WC_lun (Oct 3, 2012)

There are many different kinds of back kicks.  I suppose they all have thier place and some of them can certainly generate lots of power.  My personal belief is I don't like them or use them much.  I am very uncomfortable with turning my back and losing sight of where they are, even if momentarily.  Back in the day I had a pretty good back kick.  Then I ran into really good fighters that knew what to do when a back kick was coming in.  They would use angles, moving very quick to get off line then come crashing back into me while my back was turned.  That would lead to me going into recovery mode immediatley, which is never a good thing.  I am sure there are others who have better luck with back kicks, but I'm no Cung Le, so I'll stick with what I consider more safe techniques.

One of my beliefs in self defense is do not train a technique because it can work, if all the cirumstances are aligned correctly.  I believe you train to be the safest you can be while addressing whatever threat has arisen.  That means simple and effecient techniques.  I do not want to commit to a technique that will leave me exposed if I fail, unless I absolutely have to.  This is my preference.


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## WaterGal (Oct 3, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Defensively used Spinning Back Kick.



YEAH! Love that. The opponent's forward motion just impales them all the harder on the kick.  I need to work on getting that kind of height on my back kick, usually I go for the gut instead to try to knock their wind out.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Oct 8, 2012)

I find the spinning back thrust kick aiming at the midsection and ribs more effective than the spinning wheel kick, axe, or hook kick. When applying spinning techniques in sparring can be risk taking because they are blind techniques and when you are executing spinning techniques, you obviously giving you back to you opponent so timing and distancing has to be spot on.


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## Kurohyou (Jan 4, 2013)

My style is shorei goju ryu karate, and there are many different variations and types of spinning back kicks. The one I find most effective is the spinning rear mule kick. It isn't as telegraphed, and its a bit harder to counter. I can also put a little more power into it.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 4, 2013)

Kurohyou said:


> My style is shorei goju ryu karate, and there are many different variations and types of spinning back kicks. The one I find most effective is the spinning rear mule kick. It isn't as telegraphed, and its a bit harder to counter. I can also put a little more power into it.


Like most kicks, the best counter is to rush in as soon as the leg moves, or back off and rush in after it lands 
Both have risks, but ive found it more reliable than trying to block everything.


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## Kurohyou (Jan 4, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Like most kicks, the best counter is to rush in as soon as the leg moves, or back off and rush in after it lands
> Both have risks, but ive found it more reliable than trying to block everything.



I usually use my spin kicks as counters anyway. People almost always fall for it.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jan 6, 2013)

In a real life fight, I prefer executing a spinning back kick towards the mid-section/ribcage. It's more effective that executing a spinning back kick towards the head because you are more likely going to miss your target.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 6, 2013)

Kurohyou said:


> I usually use my spin kicks as counters anyway. People almost always fall for it.


Most people probably see it coming, know what it is, freak out, try to stop and cover and, then get hit. I.e., the reverse of how to avoid a back kicked.


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## Curlykarateka (Feb 15, 2013)

In a fight if a crescent kick or roundhouse is dodged then keeping the spin and throwing an ushiro mawashi-geri can help to keep an opponent away while you regain your balance. Alternatively, you could just be a better kicker than me and not lose your balance if you miss a roundhouse kick


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 15, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> In a fight if a crescent kick or roundhouse is dodged then keeping the spin and throwing an ushiro mawashi-geri can help to keep an opponent away while you regain your balance. Alternatively, you could just be a better kicker than me and not lose your balance if you miss a roundhouse kick



I'd say that throwing a spinning kick when you're already off balance would be a recipe for getting knocked on your butt...


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## Cyriacus (Feb 15, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> In a fight if a crescent kick or roundhouse is dodged then keeping the spin and throwing an ushiro mawashi-geri can help to keep an opponent away while you regain your balance. Alternatively, you could just be a better kicker than me and not lose your balance if you miss a roundhouse kick


I wouldnt suggest testing that if i were you. Dont confuse sparring with fighting or anything else.

If you really want to use a back kick, use it as a separate strike. Like... and dont quote me on this, its off the top of my head. Kick > Punch > Punch > Re-enter position > Back Kick. Id still be skeptical about using it in 'fights', but its an improvement over trying to slide into it off a roundhouse


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## Curlykarateka (Feb 18, 2013)

actually it did work, although against inexperienced opponents in a light contact kumite scenario. To make it extra clear I used different legs: I through myself into a roundhouse, missed, placed my foot so my legs were crossed and immediately threw the back kick. The guy didn't come close and was able to smoothly return to a solid stance. 
Although the technique worked at what I was trying to do: intimidate my opponent. That said, in a real fight i'd have gotten knocked on my ****. To correct my previous statement spinning back kicks have no place on the street, too slow and easy to avoid by stepping back.


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## Mauthos (Feb 19, 2013)

Although I am an advocate of not using spinning or jumping kicks in a 'street' situation, when sparring I do like to use left leg roundhouse followed by right leg spinning back kick which works very well for me.

I deliberately aim to miss with the roundhouse, but try to get it as close to my opponent as possible.  The intention of this is to force my opponent to step back, sway, or slip away from me and I then deliberately land with my left leg crossed in front of my right which some opponents (I hasten to add not all) see this as me losing my balance and over compensating to land, but in reality is setting my next kick up perfectly.

However, hopefully this leads them into a false sense of security and they immediately step, leap or rush forward to try and land an attack on me in my unbalanced state, normally this results in them landing directly onto my right spinning back kick.  Great technique which I love.


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## chinto (Feb 19, 2013)

in a self defense situation I would not use spinning kicks in general. to much time and to easily jammed if they see it coming, then you have vital structures vulnerable with out ability to protect them. in a real fight, not sparring, i would use front snap kicks  maybe a crescent kick, and the only jumping kick I might use in very special circumstances is the jumping front snap kick.  My background is in the Okinawan arts, and there is a reason why those are the only kicks in classical kata from Okinawa.


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## CK1980 (Oct 26, 2013)

The only time I have ever successfully used a spinning back kick was when someone passed my kick rather than blocking it or taking it.  Basically, the pass set me in motion for it already and it was just easier to go with it than to try to stop, reset, and strike again.  This was in a sparing class at a new school/system for me and my sparring partners response was "since when does a white belt know how to do a spinning back kick?!"  So, that leads me to believe that it only worked because he assumed I didn't know how to execute it.  Element of Surprise for the Win :-D

I would generally tend to agree with what the majority of people are saying here though...  They are more flash than effective, and they put on a nice show.  I like to think of as a more effective unplanned strike than something you want to try to set up.


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