# What is True Self Defense?



## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

I've had the chance to read Mitose's first book, "What is Self Defense?" and thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm sure many of you have read it as well because I've seen some discussion on it.  What I would like to know is does anyone know where I can find his second book, "What is True Self Defense?"

I'm very interested in finding it because from what I've heard in it Mitose teaches on escaping arts and no touch defense.

_Don Flatt


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## gakusei (Feb 25, 2005)

They are both long out of print. You may try searching some used online bookstores. But, be prepared to pay hundreds of dollars if you are lucky enough to find one. 

 The escaping arts are a study in body movement. Knowing where you opponent is going and moving after he commits but before he gets there. I.e. karate kid: Best defense no be there.


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## The Kai (Feb 25, 2005)

Save your money


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## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

Thank you for your help.  I'm very familiar with the study of body movement and positioning (a lifelong study for anyone) as well as many of the escaping patterns I'm told come from Mitose. I'd like to study further what Mitose himself had to say about it.
I know everybody has different opinions regarding what they find most effective.  Some will say it's the logical approach of kenpo, some will say it's the circular motion and continuous attacks.  I say all these are great but I find parallels in many other arts and this with the severely limited knowledge I posess.
I have yet to see a parallel to the escaping arts I have been shown.  This to me is what makes kenpo/kempo derived from Mitose so unique.  Although similar to Aikido's concept of not being there it is vastly different because Aikido utliizes more blending with the attack while the escaping arts utilize tricking, timing, and moving to get out of the way.  I believe when this is truly mastered you may not even need to touch your attacker to adequately defend yourself.

_Don Flatt


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## masherdong (Feb 25, 2005)

Try any used bookstore.  You can also check amazon.com or if you know the ISBN# bookstores can order them for you.


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## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Save your money



Hey, I'm all for saving money.  I'm not looking to build a collection.  I'd just like to give it a read.  Does anyone have a copy I can borrow?

_Don Flatt


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## gakusei (Feb 25, 2005)

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> I have yet to see a parallel to the escaping arts I have been shown. This to me is what makes kenpo/kempo derived from Mitose so unique. Although similar to Aikido's concept of not being there it is vastly different because Aikido utliizes more blending with the attack while the escaping arts utilize tricking, timing, and moving to get out of the way. I believe when this is truly mastered you may not even need to touch your attacker to adequately defend yourself.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 Correct. It starts with your kamae to manipulate your opponent. This is obviously the tip of the iceberg. From there it branches out into the things you have mentioned.


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## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

Gakusei,
Forgive my ignorance of the Japanese language what is Kamae?

_Don


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## The Kai (Feb 25, 2005)

kamae is Stance or positioning

Save your monet, save your time


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## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

Todd,
I'm not sure if you are trying to say that Mitose's second book is a waste of time and money or that the escaping arts are a waste.  Which is it?

If it is the book.  Have you read it?  And if you have a copy, can I have it since you feel it is a waste?

_Don


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## The Kai (Feb 25, 2005)

if I can find my copy I'll shoot it to you
You seem pretty knowledable/defensive about the escaping arts already-most of the stuff that is workable you probabaly already got from hanshi-


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## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> if I can find my copy I'll shoot it to you
> You seem pretty knowledable/defensive about the escaping arts already-most of the stuff that is workable you probabaly already got from hanshi-


Todd,
Ironically, I'm not connected to Juchnik at all.  I saw a video of his on the Pinan series and it was OK.  I did get Mike Brown's tapes and they are phenomenal - if you don't believe escaping can work you need to see Mike Brown do it.  That's about as connected to the SKSKI I am.
The guy I study with is actually 3 generations from Chow in Kenpo, we just try to learn as much as we can about escaping because of all Self Defense options it is the most harmonious with our religious beliefs.  This is not to say I wouldn't use striking or grappling if I needed to. I just need to be sure I did all I could to avoid it in the first place.  My teacher makes no claim to "know it all" about this area and encourages us to seek other sources build our understanding of it.
My desire to read the book comes from not wanting to just accept some one elses opinion/interpreatation of the art.  Not yours, not my teachers, not Juchnik, not Brown, not Chows, not Emperado or Parker, nor Barro Mitose.  This doesn't mean I can't learn from these Masters I know I can and I seek out their perspectives as well but I would like to get as close to the source as I can too.
I still would like to know why and what you feel is a waste of time and money.
Thank you.
_Don


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 25, 2005)

> My desire to read the book comes from not wanting to just accept some one elses opinion/interpreatation of the art. Not yours, not my teachers, not Juchnik, not Brown, not Chows, not Emperado or Parker, nor Barro Mitose. This doesn't mean I can't learn from these Masters I know I can and I seek out their perspectives as well but


Don,

Just wanted to comment on this part of your statement.  I totally agree.

This is what I teach my students.  To never accept what I teach as truth simply because I said it.  I want them to go out and get the actual experience for themselves.  (and when I say go out, that could mean they simply go out on the dojo floor and work on something I taught.)

As a Buddhist I am taught to never accept the words my teachers say as a "holy truth", as some might say.  Instead, I am encouraged to gain the personal experiences for myself.  Thus moving this knowledge from a faith standpoint into a knowing standpoint.

The escaping arts, to me and many others, are the highest level of martial arts.  To master these is to master one's self.


-John


PS.  Mike Brown is a very good connection into the real meaning of Kosho, IMO.


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## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Don,
> 
> As a Buddhist I am taught to never accept the words my teachers say as a "holy truth", as some might say.  Instead, I am encouraged to gain the personal experiences for myself.  Thus moving this knowledge from a faith standpoint into a knowing standpoint.



Off the subject- as not onliy Christian but a Pastor in a church.  I wish more Christians would adopt this "Buddhist" way so their faith would not merely be superficial or traditional.

_Don

P.S.  Back on the subject.  Mike Brown does it and it works for him.  Not much more to say.  I just wish he makes more tapes or moves to New Jersey or I go to Rhode Island because I would love to get some more from him.


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## Seabrook (Feb 25, 2005)

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> Off the subject- as not onliy Christian but a Pastor in a church. I wish more Christians would adopt this "Buddhist" way so their faith would not merely be superficial or traditional.
> 
> _Don
> 
> ...


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 25, 2005)

Don,

We see this same attitude in many practitioners of the martial arts today. They simply do things the way their teacher tells them to do it - never thinking there might be a better way for them. In Kempo, particularly Kosho, we are taught to understand ourself better. Truly knowing what our own strengths and weaknesses are will provide great insights as to where we need to take our training. Dogmatic martial arts (or religion) is a bad idea, IMO.

The great innovators of any time in history have been people who could think outside of the boxes their teachers (society) put them in. I was told by Hanshi Yamaguchi a few months ago at the Gathering in Portland, OR that our teacher teaches us half of what we need to know. We must teach ourselves the other half. So in thinking that way - the student must "leave" the teacher at some point or they will never fully gain the knowledge they seek.

True self-defense, IMO, is being able to avoid conflict or deal with it in a peaceful way. Anything less than that I classify as self-defense. And only if I wasn't the one responsible for starting the conflict!



-John


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## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

John,
I think you are right on the money.

_Don


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## The Kai (Feb 25, 2005)

The Chinese say -if I give you 3 cornors you must find the box

True self defense is were ethics and efficency meet.  If you can deflect the attack or defuse the situation is short of a situation.  Going home from a serious, commited and potentially lethal situation is True Self Defense


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 25, 2005)

> Going home from a serious, commited and potentially lethal situation is True Self Defense


Hi Todd,

What I am taking from your comment is even if you have to kill another person (for example), because they were trying to kill you, it's still true self-defense to you.  

I undestand where you are coming from.  I don't fully agree with that way of thinking, but I understand it.

I like the Chinese saying.  And after you find the box you must learn to break out of it!

Have a great weekend.  Today was good conversation.  Thank you.


-John


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 25, 2005)

> John,
> I think you are right on the money.


Thank you, Don.  I believe we have similar spiritual beliefs that we wrap around our martial arts training.  Please send me some info on where you train and perhaps someday I might be in the area to meet you.

Will you be attending the Kosho Summit in Lake George, NY this year?


Have a great weekend.  


-John


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## KenpoPastor (Feb 25, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> The Chinese say -if I give you 3 cornors you must find the box
> 
> True self defense is were ethics and efficency meet.  If you can deflect the attack or defuse the situation is short of a situation.  Going home from a serious, commited and potentially lethal situation is True Self Defense



Todd,
In order to avoid philosophical debates, let me say anyone who does not agree with you that the top priority is to ensure that oneself makes it home and a step further for ones loved ones to come home misunderstands the reason to study Self Defense and martial arts in the first place.

Will I strike?  Yes, if necessary.
Will I respond with lethal force? Again, only if necessary.
I have to do what I have to do to defuse the situation.

I will add to that, if you are able to do so without harming anyone else than nobody looses.  If only train to harm than my options are limited but if I learn how to understand and improve on my position so as to avoid I can also utlilize what I've learned to impove my position so as to attack.

Thanks,
_Don


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