# Fraud Busters



## VSanhodo (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Folks

Recently, Ive posted several different threads. One of the recurring comments, questions, statements etc seems to focused on Wanna Beeess and / or some of these ppl who call themselves Soke, GrandMaster, Master etc. 
Ok here is your chance to vent. If you want to name names thats up to you. If you would prefer to simply tella short story about someone, Well thats fine too. Bottom line this is your opportunity to point out individuals whom you know are not what they claim to be. Here's your chance to be a fraud buster.

I will post a reply to my own thread shortly.

As always, thank you. Remember all opiinions and posts are more than welcome. Thanks again for taking the time to read this thread and reply

San


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## VSanhodo (Apr 14, 2005)

In my younger day, There was a group of ppl who were called the black belt busters, these guys were very proud of their training, ability and ego's. They would go from town to town in the South East to train with whomever they could. Typically these tripes were Fri, Sat trips where they would go to a town meet the teacher in that school and would usually sleep in the school. That night and or the next day and night the students and instructor alike would train with these guys.
Well, thats how it all began, then they noticed the vast majority of the schools they went too, the instructors were all to often BS artist. It started off with good intnetions and from there these guys would actually find and seek out BS artist and would go to thier schools and fight them, thier students and just about anyone who wanted to fight.
I wont name name but I can tell you, We ran into alot of overnight wonders even back then. Ive had my fair share of fights. The more I see of these Wannabeeesss, overnight wonders and made up Sokes, Grandmasters etc, the more I want to get back into my old ways. Sadly I have way to much to lose. Thank goodness for growing up and getting older.

Thanks
San


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 14, 2005)

*Official Policy on Fraud Busting and Credential Verification.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8708
* 
*Fraud Busting*
  Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.

  MartialTalk and its staff encourages the polite and professional search for knowledge. Questions and concerns may be brought up, with the understanding that the other party is under no requirement to answer. 

  Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest. (Example: Kenpo Lineage questions in the Kenpo forum). Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the Bad Budo forum.

  Excessive Inquisitor style questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of excessive.

  In addition, Hot Pursuit actions will not be tolerated. The Hot Pursuit is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and/or forums.

  Members who become obsessed, inquisitors or interrogators will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum


*Credential Verification*
  The staff of this forum is certainly concerned with the rising problem of falsified and otherwise questionable credentials. Due to the costs in time and money, as well as possible language barriers, we are unable to perform verifications. Because of the number of different organizations, splits and other divergences, absolute certainty of authenticity can only be achieved in a few select areas. 

  While each member of our unpaid, volunteer staff has their own area of knowledge, we do not feel we are qualified to evaluate the skills of those who have not trained in our own arts. The Karateka is simply not qualified to decide if the Kenpoists karate is any good. Each art has its own requirements and guidelines. It is humanly impossible to understand them all.

  The simple truth is that there are thousands of opinions on what is right, and wrong in the arts. We encourage our members to share their ideas in a polite manner.

  MartialTalk staff will not be involved in credential verification or skills evaluations.


  MartialTalk is not a forum dedicated to credential checks or outing frauds. Our goal is to provide a friendly, and an open area to exchange ideas, share thoughts, relax and network. Activities that disrupt our primary focus are not encouraged.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 15, 2005)

Anybody ever heard of the Salem witch hunts or the McCarthy hearings? I'm against frauds as much as anybody else, but I prefer lousy instructors expose themselves rather than be "outed" by others. 
Not to say I'm not sympathetic to VSanHodo's goals, if not his means.


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## dubljay (Apr 15, 2005)

Translation to Bob's (Kaith) post

 "fraud-busting"=
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





:flame::flame::flame:


 That about summ it up?


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## arnisador (Apr 15, 2005)

E-Budo is big on fraud-busting (when it's up).


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## DuckofDeath (Apr 15, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest....Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the &#8220;Bad Budo&#8221; forum.



I wasn't aware that MartialTalk had a "Bad Budo" forum.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 15, 2005)

We did.  It's called "Horror Stories" now I believe.


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## DuckofDeath (Apr 15, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I prefer lousy instructors expose themselves rather than be "outed" by others.



So we can expect Frank Dux to come out and say that he's a fake and that there was no secret Kumite?


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## James Kovacich (Apr 15, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Hi Folks
> 
> Recently, Ive posted several different threads. One of the recurring comments, questions, statements etc seems to focused on Wanna Beeess and / or some of these ppl who call themselves Soke, GrandMaster, Master etc.
> Ok here is your chance to vent. If you want to name names thats up to you. If you would prefer to simply tella short story about someone, Well thats fine too. Bottom line this is your opportunity to point out individuals whom you know are not what they claim to be. Here's your chance to be a fraud buster.
> ...



Well maybe you can *start at the top and work your way down for these SELF APPOINTED SOKES and their students and their students....*  :uhyeah: 


These became the grantor ranking authority, much in the way the Butoku-kai had acted previously. These new organizations were to set the pattern and be the original source for today's ranking. As with the single-style clubs, the head instructors often *assumed the rank for which they were qualified, based on criteria they wrote themselves.*

These certifications set up the individuals so named as head of their own branch of the All Japan Karatedo Federation and, by extension, of their own groups. Eizo Shimabuku, founder of the shobayashi-ryu/shorin-ryu faction (a Kyan-type tomarite/shurite shorin-ryu blend), traces his own tenth dan to a Toyama certification. *Shimabuku's assumption of the tenth dan, and his wearing of a red belt, was not without dispute,  * and it was controversies of this type that led most Okinawan leaders to eschew the red belt altogether.

http://judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm   :uhyeah:


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## Andrew Green (Apr 15, 2005)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> So we can expect Frank Dux to come out and say that he's a fake and that there was no secret Kumite?


 How many "Frank Dux is a fraud" posts do you plan on making?  Old news, no one disagrees, the horse was dead, tenderized and cooked up long ago....


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 15, 2005)

I_ once had a student (mr. X) that studied with me for about 3 months  he then went to a couple other school and stayed about the same length of time. After a while I lost track of him till one day a young man came into my class challenging some of my students.  It turned out that the young man had studied from MR. X for a short time and felt he should show his powers to everyone he could find._

_ After being told that Mr. x was the instructor I informed the young man of that Mr. X worked in a print shop and had obviously printed up his own certificate of knowledge, and that he had no real knowledge to pass on. This was in forced with some sparring in which the young man suffered more than a little.  He was then told to let Mr. X know that all of his previous instructor would be paying him a visit in the near future to try out his system._

_Damn I miss the old days sometimes._



_._

_I'll relate a different story in a day or so_


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## hardheadjarhead (Apr 15, 2005)

Frauds.  Ah yes.  Where do I begin?  With exposition:

About sixteen or seventeen years ago, when I was teaching at another school, we had a guy--late twenties or early thirties-- come in and train with us.  He'd said he earned a purple belt in kenpo in another town.  I worked with his sister in law and she confirmed this.

He was a bit of a jerk.  He'd try and teach whenever he was paired up with anyone.  Once when I was correcting a technique on his partner, the FIQ (Fraud In Question) _interrupted me_ so he could put in his two cents.  He'd make inappropriate observations and comments on technique as taught...somewhat brashly telling me things like "wouldn't it be better this way?"  He apparently did this with all the instructors, and was very unpopular.

Scene change:  FIQ is now a yellow belt, and comes to sparring class.  All the students of all ranks...including my red belt girlfriend and soon to be wife...are handing it to him.  Not hurting him, of course, but hitting him often and easily.  He got to me and was--and I say this without exaggeration--trembling with fear.  He was the first and only person I ever sparred who actually shook with trepidation.  

So, he commences to do jump front kicks...in place...without coming within seven feet of me.  He kept doing the same kick, over and over.  "Missed," I said.  He kept kicking, getting a little closer with my urging.  "Missed again."  As the match progressed I moved from scorn to pity.  He was fearful, unskilled, slow.  He couldn't touch me, and I couldn't miss  him.  

Scene change:  Two weeks later.  My wife's (then girlfriend) middle school class was having their end of year picnic at a nearby park.  I walked over to attend.  There in the park was our FIQ, wearing a black belt with seven stripes...teaching some guy with a red belt.  I stared at him for awhile...and to his credit he didn't blanche, didn't flinch.  I thought this impressive as two weeks earlier he was near soiling himself while sparring.  

I walked over to the picnic and told my wife.  She went down and took pictures of the FIQ teaching, correctly thinking that few who knew this guy would believe him stupid enough to pull such a stunt.  She came back furious...and threatened to kick his butt.  I calmed her down.  She was seriously angry.  Note this was BEFORE menopause...God help the guy had this happened ten years later.  

Scene change:  Sixteen or seventeen years later my wife and I run our own studio.

Two days ago my wife gets a call from a former student who knows someone who knows our friendly FIQ.  

He's now telling people he was training here at our school recently...and while sparring me he kicked my butt so badly that he was asked to leave.

<sigh.>


Regards,


Steve


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## Lisa (Apr 15, 2005)

... and your wife obviously knows he is saying this

 ...and she is going through menopause

 ...Lord have mercy on his soul, cause when she catches him, she certainly won't... make sure you get more pictures, before and after would be good. :uhyeah:


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## shesulsa (Apr 15, 2005)

Nalia said:
			
		

> ... make sure you get more pictures, before and after would be good. :uhyeah:


 Please remember to post them here.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Well maybe you can *start at the top and work your way down for these SELF APPOINTED SOKES and their students and their students....*  :uhyeah:
> 
> 
> These became the grantor ranking authority, much in the way the Butoku-kai had acted previously. These new organizations were to set the pattern and be the original source for today's ranking. As with the single-style clubs, the head instructors often *assumed the rank for which they were qualified, based on criteria they wrote themselves.*
> ...


  Hey, thanks for taking my post found here here in post #49:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23373&page=1&pp=50

 and re-posting it.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

On several occasions (more like often) I have been accused of fraud busting. 

          Nothing could be further from the truth.

 I see things in people posts and either questions arise or red flags pop up. I then ask for details on the points in question and am often met with excuses (make that almost always) rather than answers.

 Often the person being asked certain questions will balk at answers or won't provide any sort of proof to their claims. 

 Because I live in Asia, Japan specifically, I have access to information on different arts and styles that is not normally available in the west. Therefore when someone claims to have studied pan-gai-noon and gotten an 8th dan from them its easy for me to figure out this person is not being honest. One, because the style pan-gai-noon is extremely small and is only practiced by a few individuals in Okinawa that formerly called their style Uechi ryu. The chances of anyone having a shodan let alone an 8th dan are slim to none. 

          Another example is a guy that claimed he was the US Rep. for Motobu Ryu in the US.

  A quick phone call to the Honbu in Okinawa revealed not only was he not the US Rep they didnt have a US Rep for Motobu Ryu. 

 This same moron was also claiming to have trained extensively in Hontai Yoshin Ryu while on a trip to Japan. For me the extensively must mean something different. I think of decades when I hear that word. This moron spent 2 days there, one day doing Hontai Yoshin Ryu and one day doing sword. On the day Hontai Yoshin Ryu was practiced the moron sat out claiming an owie to his ankle, so he actually never trained in Hontai Yoshin Ryu. The moron posted a photo of his trip to to japan and by chance my very good friend that trained in Hontai Yoshin Ryu was in the photo with said moron during a group photo of that trip. He also served as translator for the dojo when the morons group came to Japan. Upon the morons return to the US he sent a fax to the Hontai Yoshin Ryu and had the stones to ask for dan rank!!!! 

 Of course he was denied, but told he would be welcome back for more training if he wanted. The morons reply was rather nasty and bordered on sour grapes.
 We had another guy here on MT that claimed to be a "white crane" expert, come to find out through my investigations he bought his rank from a taxi driver in Okinawa, claims he trained with the guy, "extensively" = a couple hours a day for about week, and shazam! He is an "expert" in white crane.

          End of long diatribe.

 Why do I mention this stuff??? Because when my BS meter lights up I am usually not wrong. Do I like having to play a bunch of games with these frauds to show others just how full of it these guys are? Not at all, I would rather have put up or shut up, but I will not sit by and let people shovel BS out on the Internet for some novice to read and then repeat. Things that are repeated enough tend to become the truth after a while.



 Look how long it took to dispel the myth that karate was invented by farmers to protect themselves from Samurai, or Naihanchi goes side to side so the farmers could practice in between the rice paddies.the list goes on but some folks still believe this junk.


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## VSanhodo (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> On several occasions (more like often) I have been accused of fraud busting.
> 
> Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> ...


 
Robert:

Als awlays thank you for your posts. Though you and I dont know one another we do have Ryu-Te in common and frankly that alone is enough for me. If Mr Logue and Mr. Shull say your good people I need not go any further. Now with that being said, I think it is fair to say I dont always agree with your opinions, but have come to respect your views and your posts are always welcome and encouraged.

Just s short story for you.
Years ago, I had a student who trained with me for less than a year. During that time he never came to class more than once a week and rarely more than 3 times a month. One day poooof he just disappeared. A few months later, one of my students told me the guy had opened up his own school. I went by to visit and sure enough he had some beautiful certificates on the wall and was darn near overnight promoted to 5th Dan. Sald here we are 12 - 15 years later and this guy is now a memeber of one of the Hall of Fame groups and travels quite a bit and does lots and lots of seminars. This guy is terrible but he makes moeny head over fists. Just goes to show how Niave and uneducated some ppl are.
Thanks again for your posts

San


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Robert:
> 
> 1) Als awlays thank you for your posts. Though you and I dont know one another we do have Ryu-Te in common and frankly that alone is enough for me. If Mr Logue and Mr. Shull say your good people I need not go any further. Now with that being said, I think it is fair to say I dont always agree with your opinions, but have come to respect your views and your posts are always welcome and encouraged.
> 
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Thanks for the kind words. I dont expect people to agree with me all the time.wouldnt it be boring if everyone always agreed? I know it would drive me nuts. 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font] The plague of modern martial arts. If you cant hack it in a real dojo.promote yourself in rank and give seminars!!!


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## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2005)

Sometimes, I read about frauds like the above and I don't even want to talk about training.  I don't want to open my mouth "in the same room" as these people.  I often wonder if money is to blame, but then again, I've been to some very financially successful dojangs that were very good.  

My personal feeling is that we have created an "open door" policy where any asshat can cross the threshold of your dojang and then walk out and saying whatever.  This may be okay for others, heck it was okay with my teacher, but it's not how I choose to run things.

I'm not sure if its different in Asia, but I do things a little differently.  I don't advertise.  I don't have an open door policy.  If people find out about us and want to train, they've got to contact me first.  I'm going to ask a few questions.  New students are usually recommended by other students.  I tell them to be wary of who they talk to regarding their training and I tell them to use good judgement if you want to give them my dojang number.  

Consequently, I don't have a lot of students.  The students I do have, though, are part of a network.  They know each other, they help each other train and they back each other up through the hard parts of our training.  We have a pretty tight school and I am able to keep my standards high.  I expect excellence and I think that I have created an environment that fosters it.  I guess time will tell...

I had a low rank student take a Song Moo Kwan class to fill in his schedule.  The class was taught my a 6th dan that I've had some negative dealings with.  (Basically, when I first opened my school, he found out and tried to shut me down.  He felt that I was trying to poach students from him.  I moved my dojang and started my current policy)  Anyway, my student is low ranked and the class he took happened to be the other persons middle rank class.  Mark (Kid on MT) whooped all of this students in sparring and showed some really good technique.  The 6th dan, then proceeded to attempt to poach a student from me!  Mark choose to stay with me even though I hold the lowest teaching rank in our art (which is another reason I keep a low profile).  I felt very honored and I think my approach is working the way I want it to.

upnorthkyosa


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## Brother John (Apr 16, 2005)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> So we can expect Frank Dux to come out and say that he's a fake and that there was no secret Kumite?


Use discernment.
The fact that you believe one way about Mr. Dux is evidence enough that he's "outed" himself through claims and such.
I think that's what he was meaning.

Your Brother
John


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Sometimes, I read about frauds like the above and I don't even want to talk about training. I don't want to open my mouth "in the same room" as these people. I often wonder if money is to blame, but then again, I've been to some very financially successful dojangs that were very good.
> 
> My personal feeling is that we have created an "open door" policy where any asshat can cross the threshold of your dojang and then walk out and saying whatever. This may be okay for others, heck it was okay with my teacher, but it's not how I choose to run things.
> 
> ...


    Oddly enough you and I have much in common on a couple of points even though we are on opposite sides of the planet. 

    I dont charge.

    I dont advertise.

    My students are more like family than students. 

 I dont need to hold their hand in class and make sure they are giving it their best effort, they know I expect it and will settle for nothing less. 

 They know, during training I dont care if they had a bad day, or if their girl dumped them..none of that matters during class in the dojo. If they want to talk about it after class fine, if not fine.I am not a guidance counselor.but I will be their friend.

 I can remember after training we all went to a nice Japanese Pub for dribbles and kibbles and a new student said thanks for letting me join your dojo my reply was I didnt and walked off to the head. He asked another student what I meant by that. They said _In Roberts dojo *your* feet decide if you stay or not._ Which is true. I rarely if ever kick people out. The last guy was a good friend of mine of more than 20 years. We are still friends he just doesnt get to train with me anymore. 

    Along those lines I dont usually ask prospective students what *their*goals are. 

    One reason is I am not interested; the second reason is *their* goals will not change what I teach and the goals of what I teach. If they like it they can stay, if they dont then no problem. I dont run a _daycare center for bored adults_ or a _warm fuzzy feeling factory_. 

    Anyway, I have gone off topicsorry


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## Brother John (Apr 16, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> He's now telling people he was training here at our school recently...and while sparring me he kicked my butt so badly that he was asked to leave.
> <sigh.>
> Regards,
> Steve


Sounds like this guys actions/words are his own worst insults.
Too bad...

Your Brother
John


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> He's now telling people he was training here at our school recently...and while sparring me he kicked my butt so badly that he was asked to leave.


 Invite him back for round 2!!


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## hardheadjarhead (Apr 16, 2005)

Nalia said:
			
		

> ... and your wife obviously knows he is saying this
> 
> ...and she is going through menopause
> 
> ...Lord have mercy on his soul, cause when she catches him, she certainly won't... make sure you get more pictures, before and after would be good. :uhyeah:




Right.  I take pictures and then am indicted for complicity in murder.  The cop asks "so HOW did she get that guy's head up his rectum?"

She's mellowed somewhat now...isn't quite as homicidal.  But OH, jeez.  Five years ago....


Regards,


Steve


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## DuckofDeath (Apr 16, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> How many "Frank Dux is a fraud" posts do you plan on making?  Old news, no one disagrees, the horse was dead, tenderized and cooked up long ago....



Actually, the horse--or flying horse, to be more precise--is alive and kicking at USC.


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## DuckofDeath (Apr 16, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> The fact that you believe one way about Mr. Dux is evidence enough that he's "outed" himself through claims and such.



He hasn't "outed" himself yet; but he's going to.  Stay tuned...


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## Brother John (Apr 16, 2005)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> He hasn't "outed" himself yet; but he's going to.  Stay tuned...


I see what you're saying....I just kinda meant that his own words & actions highlight his own FAKENESS.
I feel we are very much in agreement here..

Your Brother
John


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## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Oddly enough you and I have much in common on a couple of points even though we are on opposite sides of the planet.
> 
> I dont charge.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if it's so off topic.  I think that we do things in a similar fashion because there are so many fraudulent claims.  I'm wary because I don't want to associate with these people and I want to build a network of people who really want to work hard and train.  I think there will always be people out there doing these things for whatever reason, but a teacher can put a stop to it in their school and get on with the good stuff.


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## hardheadjarhead (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Invite him back for round 2!!




I might just tell his sister in law I'm looking for him in the hopes of getting an explanation...let him sweat...maybe he'll tremble a bit like before.

I asked a psychiatrist (the parent of one of my students) about this form of compulsive lying yesterday, and he's not aware of any disorder that leads a person to commit such fraud.  He thought the person's esteem is likely so fragile that he feels the need to construct an identity...and might even become delusional to the point of believing it.

As we've note elsewhere, these guys almost always purport to be martial artists, cops, or military.  Not just ANY martial artist...a master.  Not just any cop, a detective or SWAT guy.  Not just any military person...a SEAL, Special Forces, or Ranger.  

As infuriating as it is, it is also rather sad.  The guy in question here, our FIQ, is one of three I know with this problem.  All are really quite pathetic insofar as their personal lives.  They have nothing...NOTHING to which they can lay genuine claim.  No accomplishments, no honest reputation, no pride...and they never will because of their habitual lying.  It is far easier and far safer, in their view, to construct a make-believe world in which they're the hero than to have to face the challenges we all face and construct an actual reality.

Knowing that, perhaps I'll abstain from making the FIQ sweat...a challenge in any case would never be accepted.  I suspect those he knows and works with will quietly question his claims behind his back and let him carry on with his tales, perhaps rolling their eyes and looking at each other with a "there he goes again" expression.  He's not going to seriously damage my reputation with such stories...more than likely he'll simply further damage his own.  




Regards,


Steve


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## arnisador (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I dont charge.
> 
> I dont advertise.


 I love your philosophy (much of which I've snipped)! But, surely you have _some_ costs?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I love your philosophy (much of which I've snipped)! But, surely you have _some_ costs?



Right now, all of my students and I share in the cost of running our dojang.  In the early days, I paid for everything, but then it was just me and a few students.  Now, students will buy gear that they "donate" to the cause when stuff wears out.  I am currently trying to get enough money for some new mats.  We've been grappling on the bare floor for a while because our throwing mats are too small to spread out.  Hopefully, with our new floor mats we can do some more randori.  

Eventually, I am going to buy some land out in the country and build my own dojang out behind my house.  I'll invest quite a bit of money in that because I want my school to be a family thing.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I love your philosophy (much of which I've snipped)! But, surely you have _some_ costs?


 
 None at all.....unless you count the gas to and from the dojo.


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## arnisador (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> None at all.....unless you count the gas to and from the dojo.


 You get space in a dojo for free?

 I know space tends to be expensive in Japan, so that's what is surprising to me!


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> You get space in a dojo for free?
> 
> I know space tends to be expensive in Japan, so that's what is surprising to me!


 It's a US military facility so there is no need to pay any money.


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## arnisador (Apr 16, 2005)

Ah, cool!

That's great--just teaching the martial arts, without contracts and 6 year old black belts and all. It almost seems quaint, sad to say.


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