# Very strange TaeKwonDo instructional roundhouse kick



## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

I'm a black belt in Taekwondo and that looks like a poorly executed front snap kick too me. Why is he calling that a roundhouse kick?


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## jobo (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I'm a black belt in Taekwondo and that looks like a poorly executed front snap kick too me. Why is he calling that a roundhouse kick?


 A black belt in TKD, that was fast, you didn't have that a week ago


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> A black belt in TKD, that was fast, you didn't have that a week ago




Produce the statement.


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## jobo (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Produce the statement.


 i don't need to, your just making things up, that much is obvious, you were claiming 4 years of aikido, then dropped the claim when it became clear you had no understanding at all.

now your claiming a black belt in TKD, which will also evaporate when some of the people with black belts in TKD challenge your statements, Then you'll move on to another wild claim to get attention


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> i don't need to, your just making things up, that much is obvious, you were claiming 4 years of aikido, then dropped the claim when it became clear you had no understanding at all.
> 
> now your claiming a black belt in TKD, which will also evaporate when some of the people with black belts in TKD challenge your statements, Then you'll move on to another wild claim to get attention



I never claimed 4 years of Aikido. You are constantly misrepresenting claims made by me, misremembering past quotes in general, and rendering discussions of any kind impossible. If your memory fails you, which it obviously does, I suggest you reeread my posts until they stick. I'm not here to baby you and correct every single instance of misremembering (you are piling them up).

So I'll leave it at that.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 2, 2019)

I suppose you could call it a round kick, as its not in any other category.    But if i remember right (i haven't done TKD in a while)  It doesnt look like a round kick to me.      And i still do a very bad one based on TKD.    I never properly learnt it and forgot it.

and i dont think it looks like how people do them either.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Rat said:


> I suppose you could call it a round kick, as its not in any other category.    But if i remember right (i haven't done TKD in a while)  It doesnt look like a round kick to me.      And i still do a very bad one based on TKD.    I never properly learnt it and forgot it.
> 
> and i dont think it looks like how people do them either.



Even as a sport kick it looks totally wrong. Functional or not, I would not call that a round kick. I stand by by my original assertion that it's a misguided front kick.


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## Headhunter (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Even as a sport kick it looks totally wrong. Functional or not, I would not call that a round kick. I stand by by my original assertion that it's a misguided front kick.


You sure have a lot to say about every single system out there. You've made Big claims About hapkido, aikido, bjj, wrestling and now taekwondo. I wonder how many of these things you've ever actually trained in


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## Headhunter (Dec 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> i don't need to, your just making things up, that much is obvious, you were claiming 4 years of aikido, then dropped the claim when it became clear you had no understanding at all.
> 
> now your claiming a black belt in TKD, which will also evaporate when some of the people with black belts in TKD challenge your statements, Then you'll move on to another wild claim to get attention


Oh don't forget he can do hip throws with 0 training on how to do them


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

It will make my day if a TaeKwondo instructor worth his salt approves of that as a roundhouse kick.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Even as a sport kick it looks totally wrong. Functional or not, I would not call that a round kick. I stand by by my original assertion that it's a misguided front kick.



Fair enough.      watching it again, i can see how it can be called one.     I can see a chamber for a kick and then the turn.  

Also, unless turning kick and round are synonymous.    They are different kicks, and just watching it as i was writing this, and literally as i got to that bit he says turning and round are different kicks.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Rat said:


> and literally as i got to that bit he says turning and round are different kicks.



 I'm familiar with various modern-day TKDoin inventing distinctions between the two (no support for a distinction historically, turning kicks were synonymous to roundhouse kicks and that was that).

There is nothing round about it first of all, he is kicking straight up in the air.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Dollyo chagi IS the turning kick first of all. They are synonymous terms.

The second kick he demonstrates, which is correctly executed, *is* a turning kick/dolyo chagi.

First one is not a turning kick. I don't know what to call it but it's not that.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Rat said:


> And i still do a very bad one based on TKD.    I never properly learnt it and forgot it.



Once you get the proper hip positioning the rest flows naturally and it will turn (no pund intended) into a dollyo chagi. But it's tricky. If you don't get the hip properly adjusted, it will never amount to a roundhouse kick, which I suspect was your short-coming.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Here's a snapshot of mine. Most people are not in this body configuration in their life, ever.


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## drop bear (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Dollyo chagi IS the turning kick first of all. They are synonymous terms.
> 
> The second kick he demonstrates, which is correctly executed, *is* a turning kick/dolyo chagi.
> 
> First one is not a turning kick. I don't know what to call it but it's not that.



It does turn though. It is just a really short turn.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

drop bear said:


> It does turn though. It is just a really short turn.



He says exhibit A is the turning kick, exhibit B is a dollyeo chagi.

Turrning kick is the english translation used for dollyeo chagi in TaeKwonDo:

*Roundhouse Kick* (also called a Round Kick, Turning Kick, or 돌려 차기 _dollyeo chagi_


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> It will make my day if a TaeKwondo instructor worth his salt approves of that as a roundhouse kick.



I have trained TKD for roughly 50 years. I have rank from the KKW, the ITF, and the Moo Duk Kwan. He appears to be a 1st Dan in an ITF branch. 
I approve of his kick.
Your snapshot is blurry and doesn't show your entire body, but from what I can make out, you're leaning waaaayyyyy too far for a kick that appears to be no more than waist high. Your foot position looks off too. I'd say your technique looks about like what I expect from one of our green belts. Again, it's a crappy snapshot, and obviously a focused video would allow us to better rate your kick.
Even a snapshot like this, that shows the entire body and is reasonably clear would help. This is one of our students, a 1st Dan, executing a roundhouse. He's leaning as far as you are, but his kick is head high.
 



Alan Smithee said:


> Dollyo chagi IS the turning kick first of all. They are synonymous terms.



The turning kick as taught by ITF schools is not the same as the roundhouse as taught by KKW schools. The angled version is used primarily for lower kicks. It is faster, and can slip between the guard and the ribs at times when a kick coming in parallel to the ground will only hit their guard.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have trained TKD for roughly 50 years. I have rank from the KKW, the ITF, and the Moo Duk Kwan. He appears to be a 1st Dan in an ITF branch.
> .



He wears a KKW dobok


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have trained TKD for roughly 50 years. I have rank from the KKW, the ITF, and the Moo Duk Kwan. He appears to be a 1st Dan in an ITF branch.
> I approve of his kick.
> Your snapshot is blurry and doesn't show your entire body, but from what I can make out, you're leaning waaaayyyyy too far for a kick that appears to be no more than waist high. Your foot position looks off too. I'd say your technique looks about like what I expect from one of our green belts. Again, it's a crappy snapshot, and obviously a focused video would allow us to better rate your kick.
> Even a snapshot like this, that shows the entire body and is reasonably clear would help. This is one of our students, a 1st Dan, executing a roundhouse. He's leaning as far as you are, but his kick is head high.
> ...



My instructor leans more than I do. 

I can kick head height too....


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> The angled version is used primarily for lower kicks. It is faster, and can slip between the guard and the ribs at times when a kick coming in parallel to the ground will only hit their guard.



Are you referring to the kick I'm questioning, which appears to have point of contact with the toes? I have never seen an approved turning kick which goes straight up in the air like a front kick.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> The turning kick as taught by ITF schools is not the same as the roundhouse as taught by KKW schools.



Traditional ball of the foot in patterns are usually the same (there are exceptions to very modern schools).


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> My instructor leans more than I do.
> 
> I can kick head height too.... View attachment 22586



That doesn't look head height, but if you say so. Still can't see your supporting foot, but from what I can see, it still looks about like one of our green belts.



Alan Smithee said:


> Are you referring to the kick I'm questioning, which appears to have point of contact with the toes? I have never seen an approved turning kick which goes straight up in the air like a front kick.



The ITF turning kick contacts with the ball of the foot. I didn't see any kicks going straight up in the video you posted. Just various angles, which are common variants in KKW, ITF, and MDK TKD.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> That doesn't look head height, but if you say so. Still can't see your supporting foot, but from what I can see, it still looks about like one of our green belts.
> 
> 
> 
> The ITF turning kick contacts with the ball of the foot. I didn't see any kicks going straight up in the video you posted. Just various angles, which are common variants in KKW, ITF, and MDK TKD.



ITF contacts with either the instep or ball of the foot, just like KKW. His toes are pointing up. There is no variant of an ITF approved roundhouse with toes pointing up.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Since you disagree, here are ITF parameters by a World Class practitioner.

In no way does he allow toes positionings like that youtuber.

Coach Me - Turning Kick - TKDCoaching.com - Taekwon-Do expert coaching


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I approve of his kick.



Why do you approve of a foot flap with no power? I have no quarrels about his second version which is a proper turning kick.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 3, 2019)

The first kick is sometimes (incorrectly) referred to as Paltung (an incorrect rendering of the korean Bal deung, meaning instep) or Bichagi (diagonal kick). It's a kick that was primarily used for sport purposes in the 80s and 90s. It's now been mostly superseded by the dollyo chagi due to changes in WT rules that encourage higher kicking.

The video is not a good example - way too much arm flapping going on, and very little hip or foot turn.

It's a functional kick when done well to a relevant target, both for sport and SD purposes. I wouldn't recommend copying the one in the video though.

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## Gnarlie (Dec 3, 2019)

More thoughts. The reason it's mostly gone is that for head height kicking the diagonal path of the kick makes it difficult to get it past the opponent's shoulder. It was only ever really a mid section kick. Using it to the head is probably the result of too little ring experience or too little flexibility to perform dollyo chagi. 

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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Why do you approve of a foot flap with no power? I have no quarrels about his second version which is a proper turning kick.



You don't really have to punt a guy in the head hard yo hurt him. A foot and leg carry a lot of weight. 

So those goofy kicks that don't go where you expect them to are pretty cool.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

I actually remember now my ITF instructor showing me that kick in a derogatory manner when I was a white belt asking about the difference in style between ITF and KKW.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I actually remember now my ITF instructor showing me that kick in a derogatory manner when I was a white belt asking about the difference in style between ITF and KKW.


Sounds like a closed mind. 

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> Sounds like a closed mind.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



I thought he was intentionally doing it wrong but there is apparently such a kick. I don't recall ever being taught that the 6 months I did KKW as a kid.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I thought he was intentionally doing it wrong but there is apparently such a kick. I don't recall ever being taught that the 6 months I did KKW as a kid.


So much depends on the instructor

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## Balrog (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I'm a black belt in Taekwondo and that looks like a poorly executed front snap kick too me. Why is he calling that a roundhouse kick?


When he does the air kick, he's not turning his hip over.  But when he hits the bag, he does.  Not very consistent in his technique.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Balrog said:


> When he does the air kick, he's not turning his hip over.  But when he hits the bag, he does.  Not very consistent in his technique.



I can't tell from the angle but it looks like that way yeah. How come?


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> It will make my day if a TaeKwondo instructor worth his salt approves of that as a roundhouse kick.


It is a roundhouse kick. Credentials upon request but yeah, I am pretty salty. 
Standing foot pivots, knee is not pointed upward, foot is turned over, shoulders are not straight, etc... It is classic WT. If a person can make good power and speed there is no need to rotate any further. Most people cannot do that.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Balrog said:


> When he does the air kick, he's not turning his hip over.  But when he hits the bag, he does.  Not very consistent in his technique.


That is true of most people when air kicking at speed. Much easier to rotate and then return when you have resistance at the end of the kick.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> My instructor leans more than I do.
> 
> I can kick head height too.... View attachment 22586


Doesn't make it right.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Are you referring to the kick I'm questioning, which appears to have point of contact with the toes? I have never seen an approved turning kick which goes straight up in the air like a front kick.


Yep; spinning crescent kicks. 
Dude, you are embarrassing everyone.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is true of most people when air kicking at speed. Much easier to rotate and then return when you have resistance at the end of the kick.



Not if you spent the adequate amount of hours kicking air.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yep; spinning crescent kicks.
> Dude, you are embarrassing everyone.



Crescent kicks are not roundhouse kicks. Completely different mechanics.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Doesn't make it right.



It is right. You don't want to be in range of a counter by kicking completely upright.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I thought he was intentionally doing it wrong but there is apparently such a kick. I don't recall ever being taught that the 6 months I did KKW as a kid.



You can't seem to keep your training straight...
So, here and now. List your training and experience.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can't seem to keep your training straight...
> So, here and now. List your training and experience.



Shotokan Karate 2000
KKW TaeKwonDo 2005
ITF TaekWonDo 2014-


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Shotokan Karate 2000
> KKW TaeKwonDo 2005
> ITF TaekWonDo 2014-



Useless, without the duration of your training and the rank you earned.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Useless, without the duration of your training and the rank you earned.



Are you looking to recruit me?


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

I've trained daily since 2014 to 1st Dan  now can we get back to the topic - why is he claiming that's a turning kick, and why is he differentiating between a turning kick and a dollyeo chagi/roundhouse kick. If I look up a modern KKW textbook, it would read "turning kick" for that kick?

Let's just say I doubt that very much.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Are you looking to recruit me?



Just trying to see if you might possibly be expected to know anything. From what you post, it appears not much. And when people are evasive about their training, well...


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Just trying to see if you might possibly be expected to know anything. From what you post, it appears not much. And when people are evasive about their training, well...



I've been very forthcoming to your investigation. Now, about that terminology of his... Would you please point me to a reference to that particular kick under the listing of turning kick?


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Just trying to see if you might possibly be expected to know anything. From what you post, it appears not much. And when people are evasive about their training, well...



I hate to do this but If I'm a green belt by your standards, what level is this  6th degree instructor then?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I hate to do this but If I'm a green belt by your standards, what level is this  6th degree instructor then?



His kick doesn't really look at all like yours. But you'll note that, just as in the prior video, his foot is traveling at an angle, not parallel to the floor. Because turning kicks do that.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> His kick doesn't really look at all like yours. But you'll note that, just as in the prior video, his foot is traveling at an angle, not parallel to the floor. Because turning kicks do that.



Well, I think you're trolling at this point because there are so many things wrong with that kick that I don't know where to start... But let's just give him a break on the flexibility issue and start with ... balance??? Where is it.. ?


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## CB Jones (Dec 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> He's leaning as far as you are, but his kick is head high.



I disagree....his kick is hat high....


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> his foot is traveling at an angle, not parallel to the floor. Because turning kicks do that.


 This is the only thing I've understood out of all that has been said lol. totally out of my element here.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the only thing I've understood out of all that has been said lol. totally out of my element here.



The "classic" TKD roundhouse moves parallel to the ground. Variants move at an angle. It allows kicks to the ribs/midsection to slip behind the targets defense, and it's faster.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> The "classic" TKD roundhouse moves parallel to the ground. Variants move at an angle. It allows kicks to the ribs/midsection to slip behind the targets defense, and it's faster.


This answer resolves the thread. Anyone who is anyone in TKD knows this kick. Nothing more to discuss!

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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

@admin I would also point out that the OP has had several accounts on this site and has been banned multiple times. That's why he's blocked out his face in the pic in this thread. The behaviour, attitude and spelling are a giveaway. 

Laplace_demon, how you doing? 

Axiom, how are you? 




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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> The "classic" TKD roundhouse moves parallel to the ground. Variants move at an angle. It allows kicks to the ribs/midsection to slip behind the targets defense, and it's faster.



The classic TKD roundhouse does not have your knee pointing down. He is not above yellow.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> @admin I would also point out that the OP has had several accounts on this site and has been banned multiple times. That's why he's blocked out his face in the pic in this thread. The behaviour, attitude and spelling are a giveaway.
> 
> Laplace_demon, how you doing?
> 
> ...


Not to mention the kicking skills  

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Here's more top notch Taekwondo quality control.

This would probably annoy my dog, so I'll give him that.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Dirty Dog, is there a mac menu in your school? Dude can't kick and you defend his angles, lol.

"Congratulations student! You did everything wrong but you did hit that 25 degree angle." I hereby award you a 6th Dan."


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Even as a sport kick it looks totally wrong. Functional or not, I would not call that a round kick. I stand by by my original assertion that it's a misguided front kick.


It's a terminology question. I'd call that a round kick. It's what we call that kick in NGA. I can't speak to what's common in different groups within TKD, but I wouldn't be surprised to find there are differences in English terminology.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It's a terminology question. I'd call that a round kick. It's what we call that kick in NGA. I can't speak to what's common in different groups within TKD, but I wouldn't be surprised to find there are differences in English terminology.



Not when he does it in the air. if he can't demonstrate it properly, he shouldn't make a demonstration video


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> His kick doesn't really look at all like yours. .



Thank god


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## dvcochran (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Not when he does it in the air. if he can't demonstrate it properly, he shouldn't make a demonstration video


Agree. But how is that different from the many Youtube videos you reference as factual and correct?
It is a roundhouse kick. Granted not a great one nor one that should be used as instructional. 
From the limited information available on the video, for all any of us know he may be a great kicker in application.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> But how is that different from the many Youtube videos you reference as factual and correct?
> .



I don't recall referencing any Youtube videos as factual and correct


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Never seen this one before


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## dvcochran (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Crescent kicks are not roundhouse kicks. Completely different mechanics.


Yep, you are for once correct. But you inquired to spinning kicks where the toes are straight up. That would be a crescent kick.


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## dvcochran (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I've trained daily since 2014 to 1st Dan  now can we get back to the topic - why is he claiming that's a turning kick, and why is he differentiating between a turning kick and a dollyeo chagi/roundhouse kick. If I look up a modern KKW textbook, it would read "turning kick" for that kick?
> 
> Let's just say I doubt that very much.


So a trial class in Shotokan and KKW TKD and then, by working out Every day it took you 5 years to get to 1st Dan? 
Why do you put yourself through this? 
IF you are in fact an ITF person you should not have to ask this question.


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## dvcochran (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I've been very forthcoming to your investigation. Now, about that terminology of his... Would you please point me to a reference to that particular kick under the listing of turning kick?


There is a bit of semantics and style specific terminology at play here. The terms turning and rotating are usually interchangeable. Turning and spinning often get misinterpreted. Not 100% accurate but turning is usually moving forward with the rear leg and spinning is moving backwards. 
If right leg is back: turning is counter-clockwise and spinning is clockwise looking from the vertical axis. 
I doubt you will get that but I am trying to sincerely answer your question.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> IF you are in fact an ITF person you should not have to ask this question.



Nah, I reached yellow belt in Shotokan and KKW. I Don't remember much technical specificities about my experience in the KKW, but I feel like I would have recognized that ugly kick

I do remember drilling endless tornados and double roundhouse kicks, neither of which are done in my 5 years in ITF.. We also punched as much as they do in Judo... That is to say only in patterns. I remember my buddy and I didn't get why they don't punch in TaeKwondo on targets, even in training. 

The technical level of the instructor was high but there was no martial arts element to the training. It was basically banging mitts all day. Patterns were mostly past time activities. It was fun but a bit strange that we didn't focus on more basic kicks as beginners. We did turns and spins right away. Cardio training was pretty nice, we got to kick hard. It felt legit but for sure different than ITF.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> There is a bit of semantics and style specific terminology at play here. The terms turning and rotating are usually interchangeable. Turning and spinning often get misinterpreted. Not 100% accurate but turning is usually moving forward with the rear leg and spinning is moving backwards.
> If right leg is back: turning is counter-clockwise and spinning is clockwise looking from the vertical axis.
> I doubt you will get that but I am trying to sincerely answer your question.



I will accept if it's an unfortunate terminological confusion/overlap with my ITF system. I think we TKDoins should try and get along.

 The ITF doesn't like the KKW and the KKW doesn't even know that ITF exist. That's the state of TaeKwonDo, and it's a very sad one.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I will accept if it's an unfortunate terminological confusion/overlap with my ITF system. I think we TKDoins should try and get along.
> 
> The ITF doesn't like the KKW and the KKW doesn't even know that ITF exist. That's the state of TaeKwonDo, and it's a very sad one.



There's little truth in any of the statements you made there, just so you know. 

2006 KKW Taekwondo Textbook differentiates between Dollyo Chagi and Ap Chagi, and goes on to describe variants of each. The kick in the OP video is named Bandal Chagi (Dichotomy kick), and described as a half and half diagonal kick. Half Ap, half Dollyo.

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> The kick in the OP video is named Bandal Chagi (Dichotomy kick), and described as a half and half diagonal kick. Half Ap, half Dollyo.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



He calls it paldung chagi and translates that to turning kick. There is only one match on youtube for paldung chagi and it's him. This is not the first time TKD instructors online invent their own terminology.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> He calls it paldung chagi and translates that to turning kick. There is only one match on youtube for paldung chagi and it's him. This is not the first time TKD instructors online invent their own terminology.


It's a variant of turning kick. He calls it Paldung, the German Taekwondo Union calls it Paltung, the British and Spanish call it Bit Chagi or half turning kick. Different kicks have different names around the world. There's more out there than Youtube. 

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> It's a variant of turning kick. He calls it Paldung, the German Taekwondo Union calls it Paltung, the British and Spanish call it Bit Chagi or half turning kick. Different kicks have different names around the world. There's more out there than Youtube.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



So he should have said half turning kick, since he should know that turning kick is the dollyo chagi. Anybody can see that's it's a failed one. Half turning kicks do not look like that.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> So he should have said half turning kick, since he should know that turning kick is the dollyo chagi. Anybody can see that's it's a failed one. Half turning kicks do not look like that.


There is no half turning kick. It's a variant of dollyo chagi. 

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> That doesn't look head height .



This one is mid section, right? I'm assuming you're training for the Harlem Globetrotters with your definition of "head height" .


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> There is no half turning kick. It's a variant of dollyo chagi.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



We are down to semantics here. I agree it belongs to the umbrella term of "turning kick", which is why I was rather surprised when he then threw a standard one and called that dollyo chagi/roundhouse kick.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

I should add: "when done properly"


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> Anyone who is anyone in TKD knows this kick. Nothing more to discuss!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



I have used it in sparring  The difference is  that I angled it properly, his was not, in front view in the air.

It did not look or quack like a duck so I assumed it was not a duck. It turns out that it was a very ugly duck.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I have used it in sparring  The difference is  that I angled it properly, his was not properly done so in front view.
> 
> It did not look or quack like a duck so I assumed it was not a duck. It turns out it was a very ugly duck.


The fact is as far as Kukki techs are concerned, the Korean term is the correct one. Translations leave room for interpretation. Nothing to do with semantics. Dollyo chagi has several variants, all of which are subsets of dollyo chagi with their own korean names. 

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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> This one is mid section, right? I'm assuming you're training for the Harlem Globetrotters with your definition of "head height" .


Bad posture dude. 

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> The fact is as far as Kukki techs are concerned, the Korean term is the correct one. Translations leave room for interpretation. Nothing to do with semantics. Dollyo chagi has several variants, all of which are subsets of dollyo chagi with their own korean names.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



The distinction dirty dog and he makes between turning kicks (traveling at an angle) and roundhouse kicks ( parallel to the floor) does not exist in ITF. There is no such thing as a roundhouse kick in ITF. There's only turning kick.

Now as for the the technical execution, it's supposed to travel vertically, both foot and leg, his does not.


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## Buka (Dec 4, 2019)

Roundhouse kicks. Of all the kicks in Martial Arts, I think the roundhouse kick has the most uses, the most different ways to throw it according to style, how you were taught or you taught yourself through trail and error, the most uses against resisting opponents, the most angles available to actual combat, the easiest to teach if you have patience and an understanding of movement, the more variants you can access to actually kick the ship out of someone in real combat, as a lead in, as a coup de grace, as a fake, as a distraction, as a part of a combination that will force an opponent to react, as a knock out shot, as a sweep, as a leg attack, as a jab, as a counter, as a statement, as a  switch kick, as a power blast, damn, if you really know how to kick, it's as automatic as blinking.

I'm not sure if I've ever experienced two people....who don't know each other....that actually roundhouse kick the same way. In class maybe, not in actually mixing it up. Too many nuances, takes a few seconds to adjust sometimes. You might eat feet for a few seconds if you aren't careful.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Buka said:


> Roundhouse kicks. Of all the kicks in Martial Arts, I think the roundhouse kick has the most uses, the most different ways to throw it according to style, how you were taught or you taught yourself through trail and error, the most uses against resisting opponents, the most angles available to actual combat, the easiest to teach if you have patience and an understanding of movement, the more variants you can access to actually kick the ship out of someone in real combat, as a lead in, as a coup de grace, as a fake, as a distraction, as a part of a combination that will force an opponent to react, as a knock out shot, as a sweep, as a leg attack, as a jab, as a counter, as a statement, as a  switch kick, as a power blast, damn, if you really know how to kick, it's as automatic as blinking.
> 
> I'm not sure if I've ever experienced two people....who don't know each other....that actually roundhouse kick the same way. In class maybe, not in actually mixing it up. Too many nuances, takes a few seconds to adjust sometimes. You might eat feet for a few seconds if you aren't careful.



The hardest one to counter with a punch to the face is unquestionably the ones with a lean, even back lean. The head just isn't there to be punched and then they just step out.  What pattern judges feel about it aestethically is really.. Irrelevant.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> The distinction dirty dog and he makes between turning kicks (traveling at an angle) and roundhouse kicks ( parallel to the floor) does not exist in ITF. There is no such thing as a roundhouse kick in ITF. There's only turning kick.
> 
> Now as for the the technical execution, it's supposed to travel vertically, both foot and leg, his does not.


What? 

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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> The hardest one to counter with a punch to the face is unquestionably the ones with a lean, even back lean. The head just isn't there to be punched and then they just step out.  What pattern judges feel about it aestethically is really.. Irrelevant.


And yet, with your arms dangling as they are in your pics, you are ironically wide open to bandal chagi as a counter. 

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> And yet, with your arms dangling as they are in your pics, you are ironically wide open to bandal chagi as a counter.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Eh, I would not spar with hands like that. This is my usual hand position sparring when kicking. I never get countered when I kick because when I kick they circle.. But I have caught them with a half turning kick so it is definitely effective in sparring, maybe not in self defense though


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## Buka (Dec 4, 2019)

If you've never been countered when kicking you need some better sparring partners.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Eh, I would not spar with hands like that. This is my usual hand position sparring when kicking. I never get countered when I kick because when I kick they circle.. But I have caught them with a half turning kick so it is definitely effective in sparring, maybe not in self defense though


*suspicious face cropping*

You never get countered when you kick. Pff. 

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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Still wide open by the way. 

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Buka said:


> If you've never been countered when kicking you need some better sparring partners.



I''ve been knocked down by a spinning side kick to the chest when side kicking, but I have never been tagged when throwing roundhouse kicks, no. They tend to back up

The spinning side kick was the only time I've ever been dropped and it was pure force. never tripped, never been dazed nothing...  I've been round house kicked clean to the jaw when i lost concentration late in the session and zooned out. But that did not drop me.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> Still wide open by the way.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



That's not sparring kick.. I don't practice sparring kicks at home. They don't feel good for the hips against air...


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> That's not sparring kick.. I don't practice sparring kicks at home. They don't feel good for the hips against air...


You said that is how you hold you arms when sparring. You're wide open. Nothing to do with the kick, just terrible posture. 

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> You said that is how you hold you arms when sparring.
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



My right arm is not down like in the picture it's at the same height as the other one. Don't think there is any controversial about that..


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## Gnarlie (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> The other arm is not down like in the picture it's at the same height as the other one. Don't think there is any controversial about that..


Think what you like. 

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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

When I'm not kicking however I have been experimenting with all types of guards. All have drawbacks unfortunately.


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## dvcochran (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I will accept if it's an unfortunate terminological confusion/overlap with my ITF system. I think we TKDoins should try and get along.
> 
> The ITF doesn't like the KKW and the KKW doesn't even know that ITF exist. That's the state of TaeKwonDo, and it's a very sad one.


That could not be more wrong.


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## Gweilo (Dec 5, 2019)

Well that was an entertaining 15 mins read, Hapkido kicks are slightly different, so wouldn't comment on itf or kkw differences,  @Alan Smithee it's obvious you have little training, and most of it seems to be from youtube, if you are countered whilst kicking, you executed the kick incorrectly,  or are too slow, I am not tkd, but the picture of you (if it is indeed you) gives away your nieveity,  as do your posts, if you have a question just ask it, you won't find the answers you seek by bashing other styles.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 5, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> The distinction dirty dog and he makes between turning kicks (traveling at an angle) and roundhouse kicks ( parallel to the floor) does not exist in ITF. There is no such thing as a roundhouse kick in ITF. There's only turning kick.
> 
> .



1. The ITF is an organization or organizations that set technical parameters according to the Chang Hon system they follow.   There is no such thing as  "Kick X in the ITF"   Such a mistake makes the same terminology distinction as using the specified English term for the Korean Term vis a vis   the term being "Turning"  as opposed to roundhouse, and if anything the "Turning Kick" would rarely be used in sparring, it would more likely be the "Side Turning" if accepted Chang Hon Terminology were to be used. 
2. Perhaps someone else can find the reference in the text, and perhaps I will locate it later, but the idea of modifying or adapting techniques for sparring from their technical / pattern aspects is addressed by General Choi.   This is evident simply by watching how  ITF people punch while sparring.   It would be hard to find the classic / pattern / technical  stance -punch in a sparring match. 
3.  Many kicks "Do not exist" in the Chang Hon system if you consider that non existence is proven because it is not shown in General Choi's texts yet they  are easily   found in sparring.   A common example would be an offensive "Hook Kick" with the lead leg or rear leg turning forward.  Only Reverse Hook Kick - turning rearword with the rear leg is listed.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 5, 2019)

[


Earl Weiss said:


> 1. The ITF is an organization or organizations that set technical parameters according to the Chang Hon system they follow.   There is no such thing as  "Kick X in the ITF"   Such a mistake makes the same terminology distinction as using the specified English term for the Korean Term vis a vis   the term being "Turning"  as opposed to roundhouse, and if anything the "Turning Kick" would rarely be used in sparring, it would more likely be the "Side Turning" if accepted Chang Hon Terminology were to be used.
> 2. Perhaps someone else can find the reference in the text, and perhaps I will locate it later, but the idea of modifying or adapting techniques for sparring from their technical / pattern aspects is addressed by General Choi.   This is evident simply by watching how  ITF people punch while sparring.   It would be hard to find the classic / pattern / technical  stance -punch in a sparring match.
> 3.  Many kicks "Do not exist" in the Chang Hon system if you consider that non existence is proven because it is not shown in General Choi's texts yet they  are easily   found in sparring.   A common example would be an offensive "Hook Kick" with the lead leg or rear leg turning forward.  Only Reverse Hook Kick - turning rearword with the rear leg is listed.



 Have you ever used the term roundhouse kick in your ITF class or the ones you took?


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 5, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> 1. The ITF is an organization or organizations that set technical parameters according to the Chang Hon system they follow.   There is no such thing as  "Kick X in the ITF"   Such a mistake makes the same terminology distinction as using the specified English term for the Korean Term vis a vis   the term being "Turning"  as opposed to roundhouse, and if anything the "Turning Kick" would rarely be used in sparring, it would more likely be the "Side Turning" if accepted Chang Hon Terminology were to be used.
> .



Not over here. If the practitioner does not throw the intended kick, the angle at which the turning kick is supposed to travel at is specified. We never use the term side turning kick even though it exists. Regardless, Dirty Dogs sweeping statement with regards to "roundhouse kicks" may apply to his KKW but not ITF.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 5, 2019)

This thread makes zero sense. It's not a discussion, it's a bunch of people talking past each other. Some of the individual posts are incoherent in themselves. There's nothing to be learned from such exchanges.

The kick in the OP video exists. That is a fact.

The kick has multiple names depending on association / affiliation / federation / location. Also a fact. 

The example in the video is not a good one - subjective but majority agreed between a peer group, so we can take it as fact.

What is left to discuss?

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## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> [
> 
> 
> Have you ever used the term roundhouse kick in your ITF class or the ones you took?



"Ever" is a long time.   I did lots of stuff wrong.   In 1990  I took my first IIC. My notes reflected 150 things I needed to fix.    From that time on I have tried to diligently conform my terminology to what the text used at the time so as to be on the same page with other ITF instructors.   So, it is not likely I used it since around that time.      Referencing classes I took are you referring to what other ITF instructors may have done going back to 1971 or so?


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Not over here. If the practitioner does not throw the intended kick, the angle at which the turning kick is supposed to travel at is specified. We never use the term side turning kick even though it exists. Regardless, Dirty Dogs sweeping statement with regards to "roundhouse kicks" may apply to his KKW but not ITF.


A. Where is "Over Here" 
B. Semantic issue here concerning "the angle at which the turning kick is supposed to travel "   I am not sure if this references if the kick travels more or less horizontally in relation to the floor, or referencing where the target is. Which are you referring to?


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## spawn2031 (Dec 6, 2019)

My primary experience is in Kenpo but I have recently been exposed to 2 different TKD dojos in the past 6 months, so my exposure to TKD is limited BUT in both dojos I was able to learn that my roundhouse kick needed A LOT of work because the best that I can do looks like the first kick in the video, coming up at a 45.  From what I was shown, the proper way to throw it was to chamber with your kicking leg parallel to the ground before extending it out to your target (my 5 year old corrects me all the time, cuz he has great ones!! lol).  I can say from my own personal experience that my roundhouse kick looks like the guys in the video right now due to lack of flexibility in my hips which thankfully is improving... albeit slowly!  I think this is first time I've read a post or seen a vid that says throwing it at a 45 like that is ok.  Just my 2 cents.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2019)

spawn2031 said:


> My primary experience is in Kenpo but I have recently been exposed to 2 different TKD dojos in the past 6 months, so my exposure to TKD is limited BUT in both dojos I was able to learn that my roundhouse kick needed A LOT of work because the best that I can do looks like the first kick in the video, coming up at a 45.  From what I was shown, the proper way to throw it was to chamber with your kicking leg parallel to the ground before extending it out to your target (my 5 year old corrects me all the time, cuz he has great ones!! lol).  I can say from my own personal experience that my roundhouse kick looks like the guys in the video right now due to lack of flexibility in my hips which thankfully is improving... albeit slowly!  I think this is first time I've read a post or seen a vid that says throwing it at a 45 like that is ok.  Just my 2 cents.



It's not OK in forms, or at least I am unaware of any form set that includes the angled variant. But for sparring or fighting, it's absolutely fine.


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## spawn2031 (Dec 6, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not OK in forms, or at least I am unaware of any form set that includes the angled variant. But for sparring or fighting, it's absolutely fine.



yeah I can think of a few places it could work well but I only use for now until I increase my flexibility and do it the right way.  Otherwise my son will never let me hear the end of it! Lol


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2019)

spawn2031 said:


> yeah I can think of a few places it could work well but I only use for now until I increase my flexibility and do it the right way.  Otherwise my son will never let me hear the end of it! Lol



You'e missing the point. The angled kick _*is*_ the correct way. And so is the parallel to the ground kick. Frankly, the forms version will be far less useful in sparring or fighting. It's the best way to kick the head, but for anything below the shoulders the angled version is far more effective. And that makes it correct.


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## paitingman (Dec 6, 2019)

It has all always been roundhouse kick to me. 
It all depends on the open pathway for my lower leg.

Sometimes the pathway requires my lower leg to be more parallel with my knee chambered higher. 

Other times my foot can take a more linear path from the floor, under their arm, if there isn't a leg in the way. 

The energy and nuance can be quite different. So I don't disagree with those who teach them as separate techniques. 
All under roundhouse umbrella in my training. 

I don't understand the OP's misunderstanding or point in carrying on with this discussion. 

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## paitingman (Dec 6, 2019)

I usually use more diagonal version of rh. 

Some criticize it as being a soccer kick because the knee chamber is different. 
The lower leg is extending as the knee is being raised instead of after a full chamber. 
When done properly, the knee should be about the same height as traditional rh when the foot hits the target. 

And my hip position during and after impact leaves faster and more diverse options for how I can place my foot back on the floor. 

How do others here use different ways to execute roundhouse kick?

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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 6, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> How do others here use different ways to execute roundhouse kick?


It's like a whip. the

- body rotation pull the hip.
- hip pull the upper leg.
- upper leg pull the lower leg.
- lower leg pull the foot.


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## Luminouschrome (Dec 6, 2019)

spawn2031 said:


> yeah I can think of a few places it could work well but I only use for now until I increase my flexibility and do it the right way.  Otherwise my son will never let me hear the end of it! Lol



The 45 degree sport variation shortcut often found in Taekwondo tournaments is not used in full contact Kickboxing for a reason. They use the horizontal, always (unless there's a brawling scrap going on). Not only does it avoid banging into elbows, it is much, much more powerful. The difference is that the pace of those fights are completely different since they also box, and they often set up kicks with boxing first.

And yes, some of them even use ball of the foot, usually those from FC Karate styles.


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## paitingman (Dec 6, 2019)

Luminouschrome said:


> The 45 degree sport variation shortcut often found in Taekwondo tournaments is not used in full contact kickboxing for a reason. They use the horizontal, always (unless there's a brawling scrap going on). Not only does it avoid banging into elbows, it is much, much more powerful. The difference is that the pace of those fights are completely different since they also box, and they often set up kicks with boxing first.


For reasons you stated here, the 45 degree RH really shines as a headkick in kickboxing and kyokushin style competition. 
You see it a little more to the body in mma these days. 

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## Luminouschrome (Dec 6, 2019)

paitingman said:


> For reasons you stated here, the 45 degree RH really shines as a headkick in kickboxing and kyokushin style competition.
> You see it a little more to the body in mma these days.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk



Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. The roundhouse kick used in kickboxing is NOT the 45 degree *vertical* kick used in TKD sport. It is the traditional horizontal one


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## paitingman (Dec 6, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's like a whip. the
> 
> - body rotation pull the hip.
> - hip pull the upper leg.
> ...


What is your center of gravity doing?
Can you shift weight forward or back while kicking this way?
Can you describe footwork when executing this kick on someone?
How do you feel about the power with whipping motion?

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## Luminouschrome (Dec 6, 2019)

Anytime you see a kickboxer throw a horizontal roundhouse kick with the instep or ball of the foot as striking surface, you are actually witnessing TMA style kicking. There are several all time greats like Ernesto Hoost, Mirco Cocop, etc who used TMA style roundhouses, at least to the head


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## paitingman (Dec 6, 2019)

Luminouschrome said:


> Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. The roundhouse kick used in kickboxing is NOT the 45 degree *vertical* kick used in TKD sport. It is the traditional horizontal one


In kickboxing, American style and K1 style, 45 degree is used almost as often as not when kicking to the head with rear leg. 

For the reasons you stated, like hitting elbow, you don't see it thrown to the body as often. At least when striking with the foot. 



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## Luminouschrome (Dec 6, 2019)

paitingman said:


> In kickboxing, American style and K1 style, 45 degree is used almost as often as not when kicking to the head with rear leg.
> 
> For the reasons you stated, like hitting elbow, you don't see it thrown to the body as often. At least when striking with the foot.
> 
> ...



Another reason horizontal roundhouses are not used in TKD comp is because TKDoins almost always take a side-on stance. When they do throw roundhouses from the rear leg, they emphasize speed/disguise over power.  This would not work in a kickboxing ring since emphasis is on power. Thus TKDoins have to use a horisontal one in FC setting, if they want to win that is...  So there is good reason not to neglect traditional techniques


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## paitingman (Dec 6, 2019)

Luminouschrome said:


> Anytime you see a kickboxer throw a horizontal roundhouse kick with the instep or ball of the foot as striking surface, you are actually witnessing TMA style kicking. There are several all time greats like Ernesto Hoost, Mirco Cocop, etc who used TMA style roundhouses, at least to the head


Well said. Striking surface is key. 

You see a lot of 45 degree kick to the body in sport fighting with mainly shins making contact. 

Striking with the foot must involve deliberate hip position and adjusting to whip and send the foot around or through obstructions, or with intent to smash through. 

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## paitingman (Dec 6, 2019)

In TKD, 45 degree works well with footwork in very close range as well. 

No leg kick kickboxing mainly kick long range so horizontal is much better suited. Especially with front leg. 

Up close headkicking like in Taekwondo, Kyokushin, Muay Thai uses many angles for kicking with instep. 

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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 7, 2019)

paitingman said:


> 1. What is your center of gravity doing?
> 2. Can you shift weight forward or back while kicking this way?
> 3. Can you describe footwork when executing this kick on someone?
> 4. How do you feel about the power with whipping motion?


1. The gravity center is on the rooting foot.
2. I can't. My body is in rotation mode. It's a committed kick. If my opponent steps back, I will land my roundhouse kick and start my side kick.
3. Land the leading foot at the ring spot. Kick out the back leg. I use this every time my opponent switch stance from uniform stance to mirror stance. Only in mirror stance, my back leg can hit on his chest or belly.
4. I feel very comfortable on my knee joint. When I kick on heavy bag, I can feel my body take the counter force nicely. When I train solo, I rotate my body 360 degree. If I kick my right roundhouse kick, my left hand will move from my left shoulder to my right shoulder. The faster that my hand move, the faster that I kick out.

Some TKD masters told me that if one does side kick or front kick too much, he may hurt his knee joint in his old age. I find the whipping motion roundhouse kick is very easy for the knee joint.

Here is my favor roundhouse kick (body rotation can be seen here), side kick combo.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 7, 2019)

I took TKD for about 4 weeks last year when I was trying a few different things, so it's safe to say I can speak with authority on not only the correct technique, but even the history, origin, and general household use of the kick.

This particular kick is done when:

a) a person challenges your ability to kick a can of soft drink off their head. Perfect!

b) in sparring, if someone throws a punch, you can use this kick to attack the forearm flexors. This can cause great cramping for them and prevent them from grabbing your gi to rough you up.

c) if you ever need to test out your smoke alarms to check they're still working (we all need to from time to time don't we!), this works perfectly as a setup to bring your body closer to it. To push the button with your finger.


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## dvcochran (Dec 7, 2019)

Luminouschrome said:


> Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. The roundhouse kick used in kickboxing is NOT the 45 degree *vertical* kick used in TKD sport. It is the traditional horizontal one


I can't go that far. The variants of the RH kick are nearly endless. Angle (body & leg/foot) is dependent on several factors such as such as opponent position, flexibility, strategy, etc... An example would be whether a following kick is in play. Rotation would change to compliment the pursuing kick.
The same is true for which part of the foot is used for the strike.
I agree with you as far as a base of learning and how it is initially taught. Over time, a person will adapt the kick to work best for them. Hopefully they will not become too predictable.


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## paitingman (Dec 7, 2019)

Luminouschrome said:


> Another reason horizontal roundhouses are not used in TKD comp is because TKDoins almost always take a side-on stance. When they do throw roundhouses from the rear leg, they emphasize speed/disguise over power.  This would not work in a kickboxing ring since emphasis is on power. Thus TKDoins have to use a horisontal one in FC setting, if they want to win that is...  So there is good reason not to neglect traditional techniques


You keep citing power but I don't agree there is a major power difference. 
You also keep saying it doesn't work well in kickboxing, but I see it and use it all the time in both American kickboxing and Muay Thai. 
How much do you watch/participate in what kind of kickboxing? 

Any high level kickboxer will have this type of 45 trajectory kick in their arsenal in modern kickboxing. 

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## paitingman (Dec 7, 2019)

Luminouschrome said:


> Anytime you see a kickboxer throw a horizontal roundhouse kick with the instep or ball of the foot as striking surface, you are actually witnessing TMA style kicking. There are several all time greats like Ernesto Hoost, Mirco Cocop, etc who used TMA style roundhouses, at least to the head


Also watch any Cro Cop fight and you will see him use 45 degree left roundhouse to the head and body. 
Sometimes he throws it more horizontal, but my point is you will see both ways. 
Both ways work well and with good effect. 


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## Luminouschrome (Dec 7, 2019)

paitingman said:


> Any high level kickboxer will have this type of 45 trajectory kick in their arsenal in modern kickboxing.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk



Not like they throw it in TaeKwondo.


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## paitingman (Dec 7, 2019)

Luminouschrome said:


> Not like they throw it in TaeKwondo.


I disagree. Where do you get this conclusion?

What sort of TKD or kickboxing do you train?

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## Jaeimseu (Dec 7, 2019)

paitingman said:


> You keep citing power but I don't agree there is a major power difference.
> You also keep saying it doesn't work well in kickboxing, but I see it and use it all the time in both American kickboxing and Muay Thai.
> How much do you watch/participate in what kind of kickboxing?
> 
> ...



The angled round kick is used all the time in different contexts for different reasons. Some of those reasons are intentional. Some aren’t. As long as the hip is engaged, there shouldn’t be a huge power difference. 


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## paitingman (Dec 7, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> The angled round kick is used all the time in different contexts for different reasons. Some of those reasons are intentional. Some aren’t. As long as the hip is engaged, there shouldn’t be a huge power difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed

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## Buka (Dec 7, 2019)

Luminouschrome said:


> The 45 degree sport variation shortcut often found in Taekwondo tournaments is not used in full contact Kickboxing for a reason. They use the horizontal, always (unless there's a brawling scrap going on). Not only does it avoid banging into elbows, it is much, much more powerful. The difference is that the pace of those fights are completely different since they also box, and they often set up kicks with boxing first.
> 
> And yes, some of them even use ball of the foot, usually those from FC Karate styles.



Just wanted to say welcome to Martial Talk, bro. I hope you enjoy it.


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## Buka (Dec 7, 2019)

I've been kicked by a lot of different looking roundhouse kicks. If you spar/compete a lot those things happen, you can't block or evade them all, not if the other guy can kick. And the other guy can always kick. 

All that matters, in my opinion, is if it serves it's purpose - if it hits, or if yours hits him. Or if it's a set up, lead in, etc. Style smile, it no matter.


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## skribs (Dec 17, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I can't go that far. The variants of the RH kick are nearly endless. Angle (body & leg/foot) is dependent on several factors such as such as opponent position, flexibility, strategy, etc... An example would be whether a following kick is in play. Rotation would change to compliment the pursuing kick.
> The same is true for which part of the foot is used for the strike.
> I agree with you as far as a base of learning and how it is initially taught. Over time, a person will adapt the kick to work best for them. Hopefully they will not become too predictable.



Rotation changes when you go for power instead of speed, when you want to follow up with a turning kick, when you want to step forward instead of backward after the kick...and that's just one variable we're talking about!

I think that having rules in place is important for beginners, and beginners should not deviate from the rules of their school.  For example, if you go into one school that teaches to use the shin, then the shin is the only thing you should use.  If you go to another school and they teach ball of the foot, then that's all you should use.  Until you're advanced enough to know when to use the other, you should only use the primary method taught at your school.  Learn the rules before the exceptions to it.


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