# How long do students stay on average?



## Fenta

Hi everyone,

I know this will vary, but wanted to get some feedback on how long an average paying student stays? From reading around I think the answer appears to be a few months for most, and a few years for a much smaller percentage. For the few months group are we talking 2-3 months or 6-9 range average?


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## WaterGal

That depends on the school. We start students off with a short-term trial membership, so most of the reallllllly flaky people drop out after that and don't even sign up to become regular students. For regular students, we usually keep people at least 6-9 months.


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## Gerry Seymour

Fenta said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I know this will vary, but wanted to get some feedback on how long an average paying student stays? From reading around I think the answer appears to be a few months for most, and a few years for a much smaller percentage. For the few months group are we talking 2-3 months or 6-9 range average?


Looking back at my experience, the average is about 3 months. I just did some quick estimations: out of 1,000 students, the vast majority last 3 months or less. A significant minority will last a year. A few will last 3 years. Maybe 2-3 will last 10 years.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Not sure of a statistical answer (My guess would be somewhere between 60-75% quit in the first 3 months), but @Bill Mattocks made a good post on students quitting a while back, that gives good insight.

New Student: when will you quit?


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## hoshin1600

the drop off rate is effected by contracts.  so if there is a one year contract more students will stay that one year as apposed to the natural rate based on their enthusiasm for training.
business wise the biggest drop off is at the "phone call" stage. they call and inquire but never show up.
the next drop off would be if there is an introductory special.
after that i would say 3 months then 6 months.
even without the contract the one year mark is a big drop off.  those that make it past a year tend to stay until black belt.  assuming an average 4 to 5 year term to attain it.


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## Buka

Welcome to MatialTalk, Fenta.  

A lot leave after a month. Then there's the three to six months folks. Then a couple years.

And I assume the average would be skewed by those that never leave.


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## CB Jones

It’s been interesting over the last 9 years watching students at my son’s dojo come and go, some return and then go again, others return and stay.

This year at the Winter Black Belt test and seminar the organization/lineage my son trains under (founded in 1948) promoted its 250th black belt.

I thought that was pretty interesting


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## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> It’s been interesting over the last 9 years watching students at my son’s dojo come and go, some return and then go again, others return and stay.
> 
> This year at the Winter Black Belt test and seminar the organization/lineage my son trains under (founded in 1948) promoted its 250th black belt.


That's a milestone. Makes me curious how many have been promoted over the years (since 1962, I think) in the NGAA.


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## Dirty Dog

People tend to fall into (and leave) in clusters.
In our system, we see a ton of people start and leave within the first couple months. Most of these never get beyond white belt. Most of these people are leaving because they've tried it and it's just not for them.
The next group will quit in the mid-level colored ranks. These tend to be either people from the first group who were slower to decide that it's not for them, or those who've decided it's just too difficult. And some are leaving because they have figured out that we meant it when we said up front that their 9 year old would not be getting a black belt any time soon.
The next group quits after they get their 1st Dan. In our system, this means an adult has, on average, 6-8 years training with us. People who leave at this point tend to be either filling out their bucket lists or (more commonly) moving on - many of ours who have left at this stage have left because they're going away to college or grad school, or are moving because of a career opportunity. We're soon to lose a 1st and 2nd Dan to this. They're a couple and have both just graduated from college. She's been accepted at 3 of the 4 veterinary schools she applied to, and once she makes a decision they will be moving. I think about a third of them haven't really left; they've just left OUR school and are training with someone else in their new locale.
The next group (I seem to be in this group...) leaves when they're dead.


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## WaterGal

I just went and looked at a one-year retention report for January & February 2017. In January, we had 21 paid trials (our best month ever!). 16 signed up for a regular membership. 100% of those 16 are still members. February 2017, we had 8 paid trials, 7 of which signed up for a membership. 3 quit at 6-9 months, and 4 (57%) are still students.


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## Gerry Seymour

WaterGal said:


> I just went and looked at a one-year retention report for January & February 2017. In January, we had 21 paid trials (our best month ever!). 16 signed up for a regular membership. 100% of those 16 are still members. February 2017, we had 8 paid trials, 7 of which signed up for a membership. 3 quit at 6-9 months, and 4 (57%) are still students.


Those are very good numbers!


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## JR 137

WaterGal said:


> I just went and looked at a one-year retention report for January & February 2017. In January, we had 21 paid trials (our best month ever!). 16 signed up for a regular membership. 100% of those 16 are still members. February 2017, we had 8 paid trials, 7 of which signed up for a membership. 3 quit at 6-9 months, and 4 (57%) are still students.


Are those adults, children, or both?  It would be interesting to see the trends in adults vs children.

At the dojo I train at, it seems kids stick around longer at first, but there’s far more adults who’ve been around longer overall.  For instance (numbers made up), let’s say 80% of kids stay for 2 years and 40% of adults stay for 2 years.  But of that 80% and 40%, 20% of those kids stay for 5+ years whereas 75% of those adults stay for 5+ years.  If that makes sense.


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## WaterGal

JR 137 said:


> Are those adults, children, or both?  It would be interesting to see the trends in adults vs children.
> 
> At the dojo I train at, it seems kids stick around longer at first, but there’s far more adults who’ve been around longer overall.  For instance (numbers made up), let’s say 80% of kids stay for 2 years and 40% of adults stay for 2 years.  But of that 80% and 40%, 20% of those kids stay for 5+ years whereas 75% of those adults stay for 5+ years.  If that makes sense.



Let's see...

For January:
Signed Up & still students:
9 - kids
5 - adults doing family classes with their kids
2 - adults doing adult classes

Quit after trial:
3 - kids
2 - adults doing adult classes

For February:
Signed Up & still students:
1 - kid
3 - adults doing adult classes (2 of which are parents of the kid)

Signed up & quit after 6-9 months:
3 - kids

Quit after trial:
1 - kid

I think you're right, though - adults tend to either realize quickly they're too busy/disorganized/lazy/whatever to do it, or they're really dedicated & passionate and stay forever, while kids often do it as an activity for 6 months or a year or two and then move on to another activity. Also, kids who stick with it for long enough eventually become adults who've done it forever.


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## skribs

I wanna say about a quarter of the new students we get don't come back after the first class, and maybe half quit after their two week trial is over.

After that, it's a slow attrition.  I'd say maybe 20% or so drop out before yellow belt, 20% of those that make it to yellow drop out before purple, and so on.  Because higher belts typically take longer, the classes kind of catch up with that attrition.

At black belt there's a significant drop, and probably 30% will not do a single class after getting their black belt, and another large group will go for a month or less after getting their black belt.  It's kind the "okay, I spent 4 years doing this and I'm done" attitude.  Those that stick around after black belt, again there's a slow attrition.

The longer a student stays, when they leave it's usually for one of three reasons:

Started doing another activity, i.e. school sports
Parents are moving
Financial reasons
Most who have stuck it out for a year or so will keep going to black belt unless something else comes along.


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## Gerry Seymour

skribs said:


> At black belt there's a significant drop, and probably 30% will not do a single class after getting their black belt, and another large group will go for a month or less after getting their black belt. It's kind the "okay, I spent 4 years doing this and I'm done" attitude. Those that stick around after black belt, again there's a slow attrition.


This is different from my experience. I'm curious about it. I can't recall seeing a new BB quit in less than a year (though surely some have), so the 30% not showing up for a single class after promotion seems especially high, and I'm only a little less surprised by those quitting in that first month afterward. I can think of a few reasons people might leave immediately after BB:

They burned too much time getting ready for that last bit of testing, and life is calling for them to pay off that time debt.
They really wanted to quit about 6 months ago, but decided to stay and get their BB.
They don't like some requirement beyond BB (something BB are required/expected to do, pay, or participate in).
They just don't see anything beyond that - it feels like an end point.
I don't know that those are the only reasons. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen numbers similar to this.


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## skribs

gpseymour said:


> This is different from my experience. I'm curious about it. I can't recall seeing a new BB quit in less than a year (though surely some have), so the 30% not showing up for a single class after promotion seems especially high, and I'm only a little less surprised by those quitting in that first month afterward. I can think of a few reasons people might leave immediately after BB:
> 
> They burned too much time getting ready for that last bit of testing, and life is calling for them to pay off that time debt.
> They really wanted to quit about 6 months ago, but decided to stay and get their BB.
> They don't like some requirement beyond BB (something BB are required/expected to do, pay, or participate in).
> They just don't see anything beyond that - it feels like an end point.
> I don't know that those are the only reasons. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen numbers similar to this.



Part of it I think is that in Kukkiwon, a black belt is a black belt, but a colored belt can be anything.  So there's kind of that drive to get your black belt, so if you want to pick TKD up again, you can start there instead of starting over.

For example, let's say I've been training 4 years and I expect to get my black belt in a year.  I also want to start doing football at school.  I may do both for a year and burn myself out, but that way I have my black belt.  Then, after I'm done with high school and college if I want to go back to Taekwondo, I have a black belt certificate that any KKW school has to honor.  If I quit as a red belt, then in 6 years when I go back, I may have to start over as a white belt, or go down to green belt because of the school's curriculum, or something to that effect.


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## Gerry Seymour

skribs said:


> Part of it I think is that in Kukkiwon, a black belt is a black belt, but a colored belt can be anything.  So there's kind of that drive to get your black belt, so if you want to pick TKD up again, you can start there instead of starting over.
> 
> For example, let's say I've been training 4 years and I expect to get my black belt in a year.  I also want to start doing football at school.  I may do both for a year and burn myself out, but that way I have my black belt.  Then, after I'm done with high school and college if I want to go back to Taekwondo, I have a black belt certificate that any KKW school has to honor.  If I quit as a red belt, then in 6 years when I go back, I may have to start over as a white belt, or go down to green belt because of the school's curriculum, or something to that effect.


Ah, that makes sense. I could see that leading to "gotta make it just X more months", like someone who needs to reach a certain number of years of service in order to retire with benefits.

In the NGAA, there was no guarantee of picking up (rank-wise) where you left off. If you got your BB, then left for more than 18 months, you could be asked to re-test for that BB. If you couldn't pass it, you could be placed at whatever rank you could pass the test for. When that happened (I only know of a few times - usually the student didn't even test, because they knew they weren't ready for it), the instructor would usually place them one rank lower while they got caught up and back in form.


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## skribs

I think in Kukkiwon the reason is to standardize the Dan ranks, so if I go to a new school the Master at that school can't say "oh, you didn't ever test here, so here's your white belt" to someone who has been studying martial arts for 20 years and was a 4th Dan at their old school.

Not that there's a problem starting over, but that's if the person wants to or needs to.  I was a green belt as a kid, and started over as a white belt at my current school.  We've had several people who were red belts 10-15 years ago come in as white belts.  But that was always our choice.


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## JR 137

skribs said:


> Part of it I think is that in Kukkiwon, a black belt is a black belt, but a colored belt can be anything.  So there's kind of that drive to get your black belt, so if you want to pick TKD up again, you can start there instead of starting over.
> 
> For example, let's say I've been training 4 years and I expect to get my black belt in a year.  I also want to start doing football at school.  I may do both for a year and burn myself out, but that way I have my black belt.  Then, after I'm done with high school and college if I want to go back to Taekwondo, I have a black belt certificate that any KKW school has to honor.  If I quit as a red belt, then in 6 years when I go back, I may have to start over as a white belt, or go down to green belt because of the school's curriculum, or something to that effect.


There’s that aspect.  There’s also the aspect of a person is getting bored with it, and they start feeling like they should kind of finish what they started, as in get the black belt they initially wanted.  If someone’s got three years in and is contemplating quitting, it’s a bit easier to justify sticking around for another year or so to reach the goal they set out for.  Kind of along the line of “I’ve come this far, it would be a shame to not get my black belt out of it.”

Others simply have the goal of earning a black belt like it’s a terminal degree.  My CI has told me about a few students who left within 6 months of earning 1st dan.  They simply said “I achieved my goal.”

I could never figure out why someone would willingly leave right after 1st dan.  That’s when I thought the material and structure of class became the most interesting and fun.


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## JR 137

People leave the MA for a variety of reasons.  It’s not always because they’re bored, it’s not what they thought it would be, they don’t like the school, etc.

A lot of it depends on where they are in life.  I left my initial dojo a few months shy of testing for 2nd dan.  I was offered a graduate assistantship 5 hours away.  Between work and grad school, I didn’t have the time, and my schedule (work all day, classes from 4:30-9) didn’t do very well with local dojo schedules.

A bunch of guys I trained with back then left within a year or so of me for similar reasons - going away to college, enlisting in the military, 2 went to the police academy, etc.

Then after that stage of life you have people starting a career, getting married, having kids, etc.  Those things put a realistic time constraint on people.  It’s all about priorities.

Kids get bored or have too many hobbies going on.  Young adults go out into the real world and start their own lives.  The more responsibilities you have, the more you need to prioritize what’s truly important.  During my undergrad days, I could spend 4 nights a week in the dojo, attending multiple classes every time.  As a 41 year old husband, father of a 5 and 7 year old, and a full time job, I’m lucky to get in twice a week.  When my kids can take better care of themselves and have their own cars where they can get around, I’ll have more free time to be able to get in more often.  I’d love to get into the dojo another night a week.  Right now, that’s just not realistic.


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> There’s that aspect.  There’s also the aspect of a person is getting bored with it, and they start feeling like they should kind of finish what they started, as in get the black belt they initially wanted.  If someone’s got three years in and is contemplating quitting, it’s a bit easier to justify sticking around for another year or so to reach the goal they set out for.  Kind of along the line of “I’ve come this far, it would be a shame to not get my black belt out of it.”



Veru true, and I hope to never ever get to that point (again that is..). That is, to train with some obligation of 'well I've come this far I may as well...'. I would just have to be completely honest, do some deep soulsearching and ask myself why I am training. I spent too many years training just out of obligation and fear of leaving until I finally summoned up the courage to ask "Why?".

It's amazing how many tend to prize that mindset, of just finishing off what you started even if your heart is just clearly not in it one iota... Whilst there are benefits in terms of discipline, and especially if it's training through difficult periods if it's something you're truly wanting to aim for, but I'm referring moreso to those who are going because they believe that they 'should'. It's really soul-crushing to keep that up and not listen to what's screaming out within you..

It's sort of cool that people are putting themselves out there and trying out martial arts, finding that it isn't for them, and then moving on. It definitely isn't just laziness for sure. I feel as though if you keep pushing yourself through class when you're just hating it in order to achieve some arbitrary goal (believing that everything will change when I get that...) you'll probably feel just as empty as you did before you got it..

Just some ramblings from my experience haha


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Veru true, and I hope to never ever get to that point (again that is..). That is, to train with some obligation of 'well I've come this far I may as well...'. I would just have to be completely honest, do some deep soulsearching and ask myself why I am training. I spent too many years training just out of obligation and fear of leaving until I finally summoned up the courage to ask "Why?".
> 
> It's amazing how many tend to prize that mindset, of just finishing off what you started even if your heart is just clearly not in it one iota... Whilst there are benefits in terms of discipline, and especially if it's training through difficult periods if it's something you're truly wanting to aim for, but I'm referring moreso to those who are going because they believe that they 'should'. It's really soul-crushing to keep that up and not listen to what's screaming out within you..
> 
> It's sort of cool that people are putting themselves out there and trying out martial arts, finding that it isn't for them, and then moving on. It definitely isn't just laziness for sure. I feel as though if you keep pushing yourself through class when you're just hating it in order to achieve some arbitrary goal (believing that everything will change when I get that...) you'll probably feel just as empty as you did before you got it..
> 
> Just some ramblings from my experience haha


Good point, Simon. I do see a lot of folks (not just in MA) sticking to things because they "should". We so often use trite phrases like "quitters never win and winners never quit", then we refer to stopping something as "quitting". "Quitter" becomes an epithet.

In reality, priorities sometimes change, and doing what's right for yourself isn't quitting, it's just changing. And sometimes something we start doesn't turn out to be what we though it was for us (which changes the priority). As an instructor, I'm always disappointed when someone quits, but rarely am I disappointed in them or for them - I'm just disappointed because I lose a playmate. I know MA is much more important to me than to most people. I don't want people to stay so they won't disappoint me - I want them to stay because it's important enough to them for the time and energy commitment. If it isn't, it's better that they move on to a higher priority.

For me, a lot of it (now) is that it's just fun. Fun things should be among our priorities. If it ain't fun (and you don't have another strong motivator for it), I can't see why it'd be worth "not quitting".


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## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Good point, Simon. I do see a lot of folks (not just in MA) sticking to things because they "should". We so often use trite phrases like "quitters never win and winners never quit", then we refer to stopping something as "quitting". "Quitter" becomes an epithet.
> 
> In reality, priorities sometimes change, and doing what's right for yourself isn't quitting, it's just changing. And sometimes something we start doesn't turn out to be what we though it was for us (which changes the priority). As an instructor, I'm always disappointed when someone quits, but rarely am I disappointed in them or for them - I'm just disappointed because I lose a playmate. I know MA is much more important to me than to most people. I don't want people to stay so they won't disappoint me - I want them to stay because it's important enough to them for the time and energy commitment. If it isn't, it's better that they move on to a higher priority.
> 
> For me, a lot of it (now) is that it's just fun. Fun things should be among our priorities. If it ain't fun (and you don't have another strong motivator for it), I can't see why it'd be worth "not quitting".


Well said, and props to you as an incredibly understanding instructor. Mine was the same when I decided to leave, sad to see me go, but understood why I had to move on. As sure as I was about it, it was still truly so heartbreaking for me to leave, and it wasn't a light decision at all.. the emotions that I went through and had to process were staggering, but knew it was for the best.

Yeah that whole 'quitters' label/attitude is so damaging, especially to younger people, such a failure connotation attached to it ay...


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## Tez3

Sadly our students, adults and children stay on average two to three years then move on, literally, as they or parents are posted out to a new camp. We've never had anyone progressing all the way from white to black belt but on the other hand we've had students with a wide experience of different styles and clubs. It's the same with our Guiding, we have leaders posted in with new ideas and ways of doing things which freshen things up even if they can't stay for too long, the girls come and go but always have something familiar wherever they go. The same with martial arts, they might move to TKD, Judo or boxing etc next depending on what is available at their new posting but they have the basic ideas of martial arts so it's never entirely foreign to them.


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## Prostar

I used to welcome all my new black belts to the 2% club.  When they thought about it, they could see that 98 people came and went during their journey.


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## dvcochran

Buka said:


> Welcome to MatialTalk, Fenta.
> 
> A lot leave after a month. Then there's the three to six months folks. Then a couple years.
> 
> And I assume the average would be skewed by those that never leave.


I thought about the same group of folks that never leave. I do think the numbers are more skewed by the higher group of really short timers. Like @gpseymour, if I average it over a large sampling it works out to just over 7 months. The initial attrition rate can be deceiving though.


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## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> This is different from my experience. I'm curious about it. I can't recall seeing a new BB quit in less than a year (though surely some have), so the 30% not showing up for a single class after promotion seems especially high, and I'm only a little less surprised by those quitting in that first month afterward. I can think of a few reasons people might leave immediately after BB:
> 
> They burned too much time getting ready for that last bit of testing, and life is calling for them to pay off that time debt.
> They really wanted to quit about 6 months ago, but decided to stay and get their BB.
> They don't like some requirement beyond BB (something BB are required/expected to do, pay, or participate in).
> They just don't see anything beyond that - it feels like an end point.
> I don't know that those are the only reasons. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen numbers similar to this.


I think this is one of those dynamics that have the a lot to do with the school/system. If there is not much to look forward to after reaching BB I can see that increasing or speeding up the attrition. Or, if reaching 1st Dan is presented as the end all/be all, I can see that doing the same.


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## MetalBoar

Well, when I think back on the reasons for all the times I've left schools there's a lot of variation and this doesn't include those I eliminated through a phone call, viewing or taking a trial class. I just had a couple of people ask me to tell them about my background so I've already written it up. For those who're interested in ~ 27 years of off and on training and why none of it has lasted forever (yet):

Iwama Aikido - 2 years. Quit when I dropped out of college and moved to a different state.
Fencing - 2 years. Quit when I dropped out of college and moved to a different state. 
If I'd stayed in the area I expect I'd still be fencing. I might still be doing Aikido, it's a little hard to say.

Fencing was what I was passionate about at the time, but I couldn't find a fencing school after I moved to Washington (poor timing on my part - a world class school fully opened up about a year later but I'd given up looking until years later). There was a ton of Aikido in Seattle but I wasn't excited by anything I could attend with my work schedule, etc. And so...

Tracy's Kenpo and Tai Chi (with martial applications) - 9 months to a year??
I started Kenpo in Washington because a friend of mine who moved here about the same time had been doing a different flavor of Kenpo before he moved and loved it. We joined a Tracy's School together. I left because the kenpo instructor we'd been working with quit and I wasn't very happy with his replacement, plus my work schedule had changed and made it a lot harder to get to class, but mainly, the instruction wasn't what it had been. Knowing what I know now I'd have stayed for the Tai Chi, it was great, but I wanted something harder at the time.

Hapkido - about 5 years. School closed for financial reasons so I had no choice. I loved this place and would probably still be there if it hadn't closed.

Yoshinkan Aikido - 6-9 months. It wasn't really what I was looking for at the time. I felt like it wasn't as fun as the larger, more flowing Aikido I'd done previously and yet wasn't as practical and effective as the Hapkido I'd just had to quit. I might have stayed with this longer if the head instructor taught more of the classes. He was quite good, but he traveled a lot for work and his #1 student that taught in his absence was..... not what I was looking for.

About this time MMA was taking over a lot of mind share in the martial arts world and it felt like all the commercial schools were either MMA/BJJ schools, kid oriented, or Tai Chi for health and I wasn't interested in MMA/BJJ at that time and I've never been interested in Tai Chi sans applications. I did about a decade of more off than on garage training in a number of arts including:

Historical Fencing (Rapier) - 3 months? Good school. I could afford the classes but not the equipment (.com bust) and it wasn't quite what I was looking for at the time so I didn't really WANT to figure out how to pay for the equipment.

Kali and Silat - 6-9 months? Instructor was having health issues and it was a long drive through rush hour traffic to make class. I was also trying to start my business at this time. The combo made it hard to continue.

Sport fencing (again) - ~ 3 months? - This was 12 or maybe 14 years after I'd quit fencing the first time. I found that it didn't inspire me the way it had the first time and I was SO bad at it in comparison to where I was when I quit that it was a real let down. I think a lot of it was that the school had a lot of students trying to compete at the national level and then hobbyists that were completely ho hum about things. I didn't really mesh with either group. I guess if I'd stuck with it at that time I might have been pretty good just in time to start competing in the old person divisions, but that in itself was kind of demotivating at the time... Now that I AM old, well, I might give it another try at some point.

Boxing for ~3 months of private lessons - I wanted the skills but wasn't interested in participating in boxing as a sport, the instructor wanted to teach it exactly like he'd learned it and was only interested in it as a sport (and strictly as boxing, not even as a component of MMA). He was a pretty good teacher but we weren't a good match.

~ 3 months - A really great combo of Muay Thai, mixed grappling (influenced by JJJ, Judo, wrestling, etc.), boxing and bits and pieces of other traditional martial arts. The instructor's life situation changed and he stopped teaching out of a garage and started teaching strictly Muay Thai out of an MMA gym. I couldn't easily make the new place and time fit into my schedule and I wasn't particularly interested in that school's program. I also kept expecting the instructor to pick the garage training back up, but it hasn't happened yet.

Aikido (yet a different style, the name escapes me at the moment) for ~6 months. This was a really good instructor. As it was not commercial training it was tough to get access to mats and a safe and appropriate place to practice. I also took a job on top of my business during this time and was working 60-70 hours a week so I just sort of burned out.

So, here I am, it's been about 4 years since I last trained in anything and a lot longer than that since I've done enough of anything to get good at it. I'm looking at schools and trying to find something that's a good match for me. It's complicated by the fact that I'm not sure how long I'll be in Seattle, but I'm currently guessing at least another couple of years so I want to make the best of them.


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## _Simon_

MetalBoar said:


> Well, when I think back on the reasons for all the times I've left schools there's a lot of variation and this doesn't include those I eliminated through a phone call, viewing or taking a trial class. I just had a couple of people ask me to tell them about my background so I've already written it up. For those who're interested in ~ 27 years of off and on training and why none of it has lasted forever (yet):
> 
> Iwama Aikido - 2 years. Quit when I dropped out of college and moved to a different state.
> Fencing - 2 years. Quit when I dropped out of college and moved to a different state.
> If I'd stayed in the area I expect I'd still be fencing. I might still be doing Aikido, it's a little hard to say.
> 
> Fencing was what I was passionate about at the time, but I couldn't find a fencing school after I moved to Washington (poor timing on my part - a world class school fully opened up about a year later but I'd given up looking until years later). There was a ton of Aikido in Seattle but I wasn't excited by anything I could attend with my work schedule, etc. And so...
> 
> Tracy's Kenpo and Tai Chi (with martial applications) - 9 months to a year??
> I started Kenpo in Washington because a friend of mine who moved here about the same time had been doing a different flavor of Kenpo before he moved and loved it. We joined a Tracy's School together. I left because the kenpo instructor we'd been working with quit and I wasn't very happy with his replacement, plus my work schedule had changed and made it a lot harder to get to class, but mainly, the instruction wasn't what it had been. Knowing what I know now I'd have stayed for the Tai Chi, it was great, but I wanted something harder at the time.
> 
> Hapkido - about 5 years. School closed for financial reasons so I had no choice. I loved this place and would probably still be there if it hadn't closed.
> 
> Yoshinkan Aikido - 6-9 months. It wasn't really what I was looking for at the time. I felt like it wasn't as fun as the larger, more flowing Aikido I'd done previously and yet wasn't as practical and effective as the Hapkido I'd just had to quit. I might have stayed with this longer if the head instructor taught more of the classes. He was quite good, but he traveled a lot for work and his #1 student that taught in his absence was..... not what I was looking for.
> 
> About this time MMA was taking over a lot of mind share in the martial arts world and it felt like all the commercial schools were either MMA/BJJ schools, kid oriented, or Tai Chi for health and I wasn't interested in MMA/BJJ at that time and I've never been interested in Tai Chi sans applications. I did about a decade of more off than on garage training in a number of arts including:
> 
> Historical Fencing (Rapier) - 3 months? Good school. I could afford the classes but not the equipment (.com bust) and it wasn't quite what I was looking for at the time so I didn't really WANT to figure out how to pay for the equipment.
> 
> Kali and Silat - 6-9 months? Instructor was having health issues and it was a long drive through rush hour traffic to make class. I was also trying to start my business at this time. The combo made it hard to continue.
> 
> Sport fencing (again) - ~ 3 months? - This was 12 or maybe 14 years after I'd quit fencing the first time. I found that it didn't inspire me the way it had the first time and I was SO bad at it in comparison to where I was when I quit that it was a real let down. I think a lot of it was that the school had a lot of students trying to compete at the national level and then hobbyists that were completely ho hum about things. I didn't really mesh with either group. I guess if I'd stuck with it at that time I might have been pretty good just in time to start competing in the old person divisions, but that in itself was kind of demotivating at the time... Now that I AM old, well, I might give it another try at some point.
> 
> Boxing for ~3 months of private lessons - I wanted the skills but wasn't interested in participating in boxing as a sport, the instructor wanted to teach it exactly like he'd learned it and was only interested in it as a sport (and strictly as boxing, not even as a component of MMA). He was a pretty good teacher but we weren't a good match.
> 
> ~ 3 months - A really great combo of Muay Thai, mixed grappling (influenced by JJJ, Judo, wrestling, etc.), boxing and bits and pieces of other traditional martial arts. The instructor's life situation changed and he stopped teaching out of a garage and started teaching strictly Muay Thai out of an MMA gym. I couldn't easily make the new place and time fit into my schedule and I wasn't particularly interested in that school's program. I also kept expecting the instructor to pick the garage training back up, but it hasn't happened yet.
> 
> Aikido (yet a different style, the name escapes me at the moment) for ~6 months. This was a really good instructor. As it was not commercial training it was tough to get access to mats and a safe and appropriate place to practice. I also took a job on top of my business during this time and was working 60-70 hours a week so I just sort of burned out.
> 
> So, here I am, it's been about 4 years since I last trained in anything and a lot longer than that since I've done enough of anything to get good at it. I'm looking at schools and trying to find something that's a good match for me. It's complicated by the fact that I'm not sure how long I'll be in Seattle, but I'm currently guessing at least another couple of years so I want to make the best of them.


Thanks for posting that MetalBoar . I love reading peoples' training histories, and also really interesting to see there are just so many different reasons why people move on. It's definitely not just a case of the person was 'lazy' .


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## dvcochran

MetalBoar said:


> Well, when I think back on the reasons for all the times I've left schools there's a lot of variation and this doesn't include those I eliminated through a phone call, viewing or taking a trial class. I just had a couple of people ask me to tell them about my background so I've already written it up. For those who're interested in ~ 27 years of off and on training and why none of it has lasted forever (yet):
> 
> Iwama Aikido - 2 years. Quit when I dropped out of college and moved to a different state.
> Fencing - 2 years. Quit when I dropped out of college and moved to a different state.
> If I'd stayed in the area I expect I'd still be fencing. I might still be doing Aikido, it's a little hard to say.
> 
> Fencing was what I was passionate about at the time, but I couldn't find a fencing school after I moved to Washington (poor timing on my part - a world class school fully opened up about a year later but I'd given up looking until years later). There was a ton of Aikido in Seattle but I wasn't excited by anything I could attend with my work schedule, etc. And so...
> 
> Tracy's Kenpo and Tai Chi (with martial applications) - 9 months to a year??
> I started Kenpo in Washington because a friend of mine who moved here about the same time had been doing a different flavor of Kenpo before he moved and loved it. We joined a Tracy's School together. I left because the kenpo instructor we'd been working with quit and I wasn't very happy with his replacement, plus my work schedule had changed and made it a lot harder to get to class, but mainly, the instruction wasn't what it had been. Knowing what I know now I'd have stayed for the Tai Chi, it was great, but I wanted something harder at the time.
> 
> Hapkido - about 5 years. School closed for financial reasons so I had no choice. I loved this place and would probably still be there if it hadn't closed.
> 
> Yoshinkan Aikido - 6-9 months. It wasn't really what I was looking for at the time. I felt like it wasn't as fun as the larger, more flowing Aikido I'd done previously and yet wasn't as practical and effective as the Hapkido I'd just had to quit. I might have stayed with this longer if the head instructor taught more of the classes. He was quite good, but he traveled a lot for work and his #1 student that taught in his absence was..... not what I was looking for.
> 
> About this time MMA was taking over a lot of mind share in the martial arts world and it felt like all the commercial schools were either MMA/BJJ schools, kid oriented, or Tai Chi for health and I wasn't interested in MMA/BJJ at that time and I've never been interested in Tai Chi sans applications. I did about a decade of more off than on garage training in a number of arts including:
> 
> Historical Fencing (Rapier) - 3 months? Good school. I could afford the classes but not the equipment (.com bust) and it wasn't quite what I was looking for at the time so I didn't really WANT to figure out how to pay for the equipment.
> 
> Kali and Silat - 6-9 months? Instructor was having health issues and it was a long drive through rush hour traffic to make class. I was also trying to start my business at this time. The combo made it hard to continue.
> 
> Sport fencing (again) - ~ 3 months? - This was 12 or maybe 14 years after I'd quit fencing the first time. I found that it didn't inspire me the way it had the first time and I was SO bad at it in comparison to where I was when I quit that it was a real let down. I think a lot of it was that the school had a lot of students trying to compete at the national level and then hobbyists that were completely ho hum about things. I didn't really mesh with either group. I guess if I'd stuck with it at that time I might have been pretty good just in time to start competing in the old person divisions, but that in itself was kind of demotivating at the time... Now that I AM old, well, I might give it another try at some point.
> 
> Boxing for ~3 months of private lessons - I wanted the skills but wasn't interested in participating in boxing as a sport, the instructor wanted to teach it exactly like he'd learned it and was only interested in it as a sport (and strictly as boxing, not even as a component of MMA). He was a pretty good teacher but we weren't a good match.
> 
> ~ 3 months - A really great combo of Muay Thai, mixed grappling (influenced by JJJ, Judo, wrestling, etc.), boxing and bits and pieces of other traditional martial arts. The instructor's life situation changed and he stopped teaching out of a garage and started teaching strictly Muay Thai out of an MMA gym. I couldn't easily make the new place and time fit into my schedule and I wasn't particularly interested in that school's program. I also kept expecting the instructor to pick the garage training back up, but it hasn't happened yet.
> 
> Aikido (yet a different style, the name escapes me at the moment) for ~6 months. This was a really good instructor. As it was not commercial training it was tough to get access to mats and a safe and appropriate place to practice. I also took a job on top of my business during this time and was working 60-70 hours a week so I just sort of burned out.
> 
> So, here I am, it's been about 4 years since I last trained in anything and a lot longer than that since I've done enough of anything to get good at it. I'm looking at schools and trying to find something that's a good match for me. It's complicated by the fact that I'm not sure how long I'll be in Seattle, but I'm currently guessing at least another couple of years so I want to make the best of them.



A thorough history. I am amazed you had that many choices in training. The variety of styles is incredible. In our location there are about 10 styles/schools I am aware of in a 100 mile radius so the choices are pretty limited for a regular working adult lifestyle. Good post.


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## Christopher Adamchek

Our karate classes 
kids tend to get dis interested after a few years
teens typically quit once they get their first dan 
adults a year or two due changing family routines 

Our self defense classes 
mostly women who stay for a few months and leave when they feel more confident


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## MetalBoar

dvcochran said:


> A thorough history. I am amazed you had that many choices in training. The variety of styles is incredible. In our location there are about 10 styles/schools I am aware of in a 100 mile radius so the choices are pretty limited for a regular working adult lifestyle. Good post.


I've lived in some large cities, everything on this list is from 3 that have metropolitan area populations ranging from just over 1 million to over 4 million. I've done most of my training in Seattle. I think we do have more than the usual number of schools here and it's also a big place, when you add in the surrounding cities it's got almost 4 million people. The Phoenix area is even bigger and they also have a fantastic variety of martial arts schools.

I do feel pretty lucky, just off the top of my head, within reasonable walking distance of my house there's a new MMA gym that I haven't checked out , 2 Kenpo schools at least one that has some other arts too, 2 karate schools, a place that teaches Chinese internal MA including some hard to find stuff, and probably some other places I'm forgetting. A very short drive or bus ride opens up at least that many schools again.


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## dvcochran

I thought I would follow @MetalBoar 's lead and write down my training history. I have never lived in an area with the breadth of different style as he (she?) has. Unless I was traveling for work which did not allow a lot of leisure time. 
I trained MDK TKD for 10 years until work and travel got in the way. I continued training, finding schools of any style in the towns I traveled to for work. The exposure to other styles was fantastic.
A friend invited me to a Kali class he was taking. I practiced 4 hours/week for 6 years getting to 1st Dan. Master Tuan went back home to the Philippines so that ended.
I dabbled in Kung Fu to green sash. It was interesting but never stuck with me. Partly personal preference, part the instruction I suppose. A great instructor, but just a bad person in and out of class so that made it hard to stay.
I had to take a big break in the early 2000's after a bad accident. 
I have been able to work back to 1-2 classes at our main school for the last several years. 
For most regular people on this forum, I doubt my training is remarkable, but I know that was not the OP's question. Back when I really kept up with such data, 4-6 months was a very consistent average. As other have suggested, drilling down in to age ranges would be more valuable information I think. This should help understand where, if any, your school has gaps in classes/teaching. You may find you style is just not conducive to certain age ranges.


dvcochran said:


> A thorough history. I am amazed you had that many choices in training. The variety of styles is incredible. In our location there are about 10 styles/schools I am aware of in a 100 mile radius so the choices are pretty limited for a regular working adult lifestyle. Good post.


I did some checking to be more accurate; 12 schools in a 50 mile radius. Get pretty rural past that and only goes up to 16 in a 100 mile radius.


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## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I think this is one of those dynamics that have the a lot to do with the school/system. If there is not much to look forward to after reaching BB I can see that increasing or speeding up the attrition. Or, if reaching 1st Dan is presented as the end all/be all, I can see that doing the same.


Agreed. In mainline NGA (and even more so in my offshoot), BB (shodan) is pretty much the end of new stuff. There's a smattering of new material for nidan (the last technical rank) in mainline, but IMO it's a pretty clunky add-on that doesn't really tie to the rest of the system. There's actually no new curriculum after brown in mainline, and they have instructor prep as the main progressive training before black. For me, there's no "dan" ranking (though I'd have no problem ranking some guys named Dan), and BB really is the end of the technical curriculum. At that point, it's play time. For folks who want something to progress on, it's probably time for them to go train another art, honestly. If they stay in NGA, they're mostly working to get better - and a lot of us have fun getting into tinkering at that point.


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## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I did some checking to be more accurate; 12 schools in a 50 mile radius. Get pretty rural past that and only goes up to 16 in a 100 mile radius.


That's a bit thinner even than the places I've lived, but a similar experience. I wonder if that affects student longevity significantly...


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