# Empty Your Cup



## PhotonGuy

Its sometimes said in the martial arts that you should empty your cup of knowledge. Another words, stop thinking you know so much and start learning from the beginning. By emptying your cup you have room to learn more stuff. If you ask me, its a good thing to do.


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## Touch Of Death

PhotonGuy said:


> Its sometimes said in the martial arts that you should empty your cup of knowledge. Another words, stop thinking you know so much and start learning from the beginning. By emptying your cup you have room to learn more stuff. If you ask me, its a good thing to do.


I always thought it was just something cool to say. I prefer, "Shut your yap, for once in your life, and listen!"


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## Buka

All of us here dropping any preconceived notions we have and listening to everyone else's opinion.....yeah, that's the ticket.

I gotta' get me some more cups.


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## oaktree

I find my knowledge increases when I empty a couple of bottles especially when they come in a pack of 6.


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## Touch Of Death

My cup renneth over...


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## Kung Fu Wang

PhotonGuy said:


> Its sometimes said in the martial arts that you should empty your cup of knowledge.


Assume that you will live for 100 years. You empty your cup when you were

- 10 years old, you will have 90 years to refill your cup.
- 20 years old, you will have 80 years to refill your cup.
- ...
-  90 years old, you will have 10 years to refill your cup.
- 100 years old, you will die with your cup empty.

When you (general YOU) are 70 years old and you still don't know what's right and what's wrong, there is something wrong in your training. At some point time in your life, you will need to hold on your cup. That's called "faith".


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## Flying Crane

You don't just randomly empty you cup without good reason.  Context is everything.

If you are learning something new, best to learn it for its own merits and not try to force it to be like something you already know.  That is appropriate emptying of the cup.

And that does not automatically mean you have to throw away what you have already done before.  You might decide to do that, but it's not a given.


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## Touch Of Death

Think of your belt level as your ability to listen. By the time you reach black belt, you should have the courtesy, and the ability, to listen to anyone. If you instantly dismiss, you have been over promoted.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Sometime you may not be able to empty your cup for some special reason.

I have suggested my Taiji friend that when he does Taiji "double pulling", instead of to have both palms facing down (you can't "pull"), he should have one palm facing up and one palm facing down (you can "pull").






After I offered my suggestion to him, he didn't change his move for 30 years. One day I saw his "double pulling" was finally changed and I asked him why. He said since he learned Taiji from his Taiji teacher, as long as his Taiji teacher was still alive, He could not change it. After his Taiji teacher had passed away, he finally had the freedom to empty his cut and refill it.


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## Gnarlie

I'm not sure it really is about empty. I think it's more about flexible:

a) having the humility to realise that the things you suspect are likely true may not be

b) always being able to entertain the idea of something without committing to it or trashing it, then after consideration either disposing of it or assimilating into your cup

c) acknowledging that you will never know the truth, you will only become more confident of what is likely true

So I really can reach 90 and say I still don't know what's right. I'll have a better idea than when I was 18, but I'll never be sure. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Bill Mattocks

PhotonGuy said:


> Its sometimes said in the martial arts that you should empty your cup of knowledge. Another words, stop thinking you know so much and start learning from the beginning. By emptying your cup you have room to learn more stuff. If you ask me, its a good thing to do.



I often use the same term.  What I believe is meant by the phrase is to adjust your attitude when receiving instruction so that you are a receptive and willing learner.

When one thinks that they 'already know' how to perform a given technique, they may tend not to listen well to any additional instruction on the topic.  When asked to practice the technique, they may practice it they way they believe they 'already know' it, rather than the way the instructor wishes it to be done.

It refers to ego, basically.

We have a sign on the door that says "Leave your shoes and your attitude at the door."

Another way to look at it is that if your 'cup is full' metaphorically, no instructor can add anything to your knowledge.  To empty your cup is to be receptive and willing to absorb more learning.

It is something I have to remind myself of constantly.  I even say it to myself as I step out onto the floor.  Deep breath, settle, tell myself, "Empty your cup, student."


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

I'm not actually a huge fan of the 'empty your cup' idea. It assumes that whatever you have learned will be useless in the new art. I much prefer the idea that you can use what you have already learned and combine them for your own preference, as long as you stay humble about what you have not yet learned.


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## Steve

The version of this story I've heard has to do with a zen master and an academic.  The two meet at the request of the academic who states that he wants to learn about Zen.  When they meet, however, the academic dominates the conversation and does not listen.

Long and short of it is that it is not a lesson about abandoning what you know or pretending you know nothing.  Rather, I take it simply to mean that if you are talking, you cannot also be listening.

Edit:  Just want to be clear that it sounds like many of you have heard a different version of this parable.  I have only heard the one version, and it's pretty consistent.


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## Kung Fu Wang

When Bill Maher talks to Rush Limbaugh, I don't believe either one will empty his cup.

What's the difference here?


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## oaktree

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When Bill Maher talks to Rush Limbaugh, I don't believe either one will empty his cup.
> 
> What's the difference here?


Ones cup is full of poo and the other's is filled with cheeseburgers and blasphemy


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## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


> I'm not actually a huge fan of the 'empty your cup' idea. It assumes that whatever you have learned will be useless in the new art. I much prefer the idea that you can use what you have already learned and combine them for your own preference, as long as you stay humble about what you have not yet learned.


In my opinion, when learning something new is not the time for that.  Later, one can decide if that fits, but not during the initial learning process.


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## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When Bill Maher talks to Rush Limbaugh, I don't believe either one will empty his cup.
> 
> What's the difference here?



Political posting? Not allowed here.


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## Touch Of Death

The very though of, clearing your mind or emptying your cup, is something. and when you think about doing it, you are neither, clearing your mind or emptying your cup.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Flying Crane said:


> In my opinion, when learning something new is not the time for that.  Later, one can decide if that fits, but not during the initial learning process.


That is still suggesting that whatever you have already learned is useless. IMO a good instructor will take whatever you have already learned, help you apply what is similar from your previous style, and empty out that which is not useless. Not tell you to ignore all that you have already learned and completely restart anew.


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## oaktree

Emptying your cup was teaching a lesson in humility and be open to new insight.
The monk was not telling the professor abandon his experience and knowledge but be open to others as in the fullness was a metaphor for arrogance(which was displayed by the professor giving a lecture to a monk about how much he knew about zen)


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## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


> That is still suggesting that whatever you have already learned is useless. IMO a good instructor will take whatever you have already learned, help you apply what is similar from your previous style, and empty out that which is not useless. Not tell you to ignore all that you have already learned and completely restart anew.


No, it isn't.  It is simply recognizing that some things are designed to be done differently, and you need to learn the new thing for its own merits, as it is meant to be done.  Once you understand the new thing well then you can evaluate how similar it might be to what you already knew.  But as you are learning it, you are not in a position to make that judgment yet.

As an ex-kenpo guy, I can tell you that what I do now is structured and designed in a way that is fundamentally different from the Kenpo that I learned.  If I had simply turned it into Kenpo, did the new method the same way as I was doing Kenpo, it would have been worthless.  It is tremendously valuable, but only if done the way it is meant to be done.

Later, once my understanding had grown, I decided that for me, the new method was better, and made more sense to me.  So I did switch and quit kenpo, among others, in favor of the one.  But that evaluation came later.


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## Flatfish

I think I like @Bill Mattocks answer best. Be receptive to new things that are being taught but there's no need to throw out what you have learned before outright. Unless after careful evaluation you think you should.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Flying Crane said:


> No, it isn't.  It is simply recognizing that some things are designed to be done differently, and you need to learn the new thing for its own merits, as it is meant to be done.  Once you understand the new thing well then you can evaluate how similar it might be to what you already knew.  But as you are learning it, you are not in a position to make that judgment yet.
> 
> As an ex-kenpo guy, I can tell you that what I do now is structured and designed in a way that is fundamentally different from the Kenpo that I learned.  If I had simply turned it into Kenpo, did the new method the same way as I was doing Kenpo, it would have been worthless.  It is tremendously valuable, but only if done the way it is meant to be done.
> 
> Later, once my understanding had grown, I decided that for me, the new method was better, and made more sense to me.  So I did switch and quit kenpo, among others, in favor of the one.  But that evaluation came later.



I am not stating that I should recognize what is useful, I am saying that my Instructor should be able to see what I am capable of, and in what ways that could help them teaching me the new style. I do not expect to be able to automatically know that information myself. Sorry if I was unclear about that.


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## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


> I am not stating that I should recognize what is useful, I am saying that my Instructor should be able to see what I am capable of, and in what ways that could help them teaching me the new style. I do not expect to be able to automatically know that information myself. Sorry if I was unclear about that.


Sure, I understand.  My point is really that there can be big differences between one system and another, to the point where experience with one system could actually get in the way of learning another.  That depends on which two systems are in the mix, but it definitely can happen.  That's why I keep saying, learn a new system for its own merits, don't force it to be like something you already know.  And to do that, there is an emptying of the cup that needs to happen, for that learning process.


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## Tez3

Of course, you can always get a bigger cup, a pint sized tea mug perhaps, and fill it with even more knowledge. 

Tea and biccies, an irresistible combination (especially custard creams and jammie dodgers!) ends all arguments.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, I understand.  My point is really that there can be big differences between one system and another, to the point where experience with one system could actually get in the way of learning another.  That depends on which two systems are in the mix, but it definitely can happen.  That's why I keep saying, learn a new system for its own merits, don't force it to be like something you already know.  And to do that, there is an emptying of the cup that needs to happen, for that learning process.


That is true, some arts are actually detrimental to that. My solution to that, though, is to learn arts that should either help, or are unrelated enough that one will not get in the way of the other. If not, I would agree the only solution is to empty your cup, but that is nearly impossible since that requires you to get rid of your muscle memory as well, so that you dont get in your own way.


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## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


> That is true, some arts are actually detrimental to that. My solution to that, though, is to learn arts that should either help, or are unrelated enough that one will not get in the way of the other. If not, I would agree the only solution is to empty your cup, but that is nearly impossible since that requires you to get rid of your muscle memory as well, so that you dont get in your own way.


It can get complicated, yes.  It depends on habits you have developed and how those may or may not mesh with a new method, and whether you can suppress them during the learning process.  It's not always possible.  For me, I'm glad I was able to, it lead me to a much better place for myself.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

That's lucky for you. I attempted it at one point, and it did not work out. Ended up having to give up on the new art after nearly a year, with nothing much to show for it, except finding myself worse at my main art.


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## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


> That's lucky for you. I attempted it at one point, and it did not work out. Ended up having to give up on the new art after nearly a year, with nothing much to show for it, except finding myself worse at my main art.


That is an enlightening experience to have.  Frustrating, sure.  But I'm sure the experience taught you far more than if it had all gone smoothly.  There is a perspective there that you cannot get any other way.

I see some people try to broaden their arsenal by adopting things from other styles, like a famous kata or form, or whatever.  Sometimes that can work effectively, but often it just leads to a mishmash collection of stuff that does not gel or work well together because the different parts are at odds with each other in how they function.  There is no continuity tying it all together.  People get so focused on wanting to add stuff that they never stop to consider that maybe there are good reasons to NOT add certain things.  

Some things that work very well within a certain framework may not work at all if taken out of that framework, divorced from the foundation upon which it was built.


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## Ironbear24

Touch Of Death said:


> My cup renneth over...



Dota2 reference?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Ironbear24 said:


> Dota2 reference?


Reference to a lot of things, including the bible. Way older than dota2


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## Tgace

Depends. Sometimes I just pour a little off of the top to make some room......


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## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> Dota2 reference?


What is that? LOL


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Touch Of Death said:


> What is that? LOL


A newish computer game. I have never played it, but have heard of it.


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## PhotonGuy

Touch Of Death said:


> I always thought it was just something cool to say. I prefer, "Shut your yap, for once in your life, and listen!"



Well that's what you do when you start taking lessons. Whenever you start something new you're supposed to just listen and follow instructions, that's how you learn.


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## PhotonGuy

Touch Of Death said:


> Think of your belt level as your ability to listen. By the time you reach black belt, you should have the courtesy, and the ability, to listen to anyone. If you instantly dismiss, you have been over promoted.



That would depend on how you define black belt. Every dojo has its own requirements and its own set of standards, so the definition of black belt varies from dojo to dojo, but regardless of where you get a black belt there is always more to learn. In fact, black belt is just the beginning. The more you know the more you realize what you have yet to learn.

As for listening to other people I agree with that, and while you shouldn't instantly dismiss most stuff you hear, you also shouldn't immediately accept everything you hear as fact. Its important to keep an open mind and whether or not you accept what you hear, there is much in between accepting and not accepting. You could take into consideration that something might be true but not that it necessarily is true, it just might be.


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## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> I'm not sure it really is about empty. I think it's more about flexible:
> 
> a) having the humility to realise that the things you suspect are likely true may not be
> 
> b) always being able to entertain the idea of something without committing to it or trashing it, then after consideration either disposing of it or assimilating into your cup
> 
> c) acknowledging that you will never know the truth, you will only become more confident of what is likely true
> 
> So I really can reach 90 and say I still don't know what's right. I'll have a better idea than when I was 18, but I'll never be sure.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



Well yes and in particular with regards to a) I believe emptying your cup means stop thinking you know more than you do. All too often, especially people with just a little bit of knowledge and experience, they think they know more than they do, they overestimate themselves in that regard. Emptying your cup means to forget all that you supposedly know, at least for the time being, and start again at the beginning. That way you can learn more.


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## PhotonGuy

Bill Mattocks said:


> I often use the same term.  What I believe is meant by the phrase is to adjust your attitude when receiving instruction so that you are a receptive and willing learner.
> 
> When one thinks that they 'already know' how to perform a given technique, they may tend not to listen well to any additional instruction on the topic.  When asked to practice the technique, they may practice it they way they believe they 'already know' it, rather than the way the instructor wishes it to be done.
> 
> It refers to ego, basically.
> 
> We have a sign on the door that says "Leave your shoes and your attitude at the door."
> 
> Another way to look at it is that if your 'cup is full' metaphorically, no instructor can add anything to your knowledge.  To empty your cup is to be receptive and willing to absorb more learning.
> 
> It is something I have to remind myself of constantly.  I even say it to myself as I step out onto the floor.  Deep breath, settle, tell myself, "Empty your cup, student."



That is basically the gist of what I've been saying. People who think they know it all, they really need to empty their cup. And in regards to performing techniques, there is always more you can learn and I speak from my own experience. After training at my main dojo for about fifteen years, I started cross training at this other dojo. At the new dojo I started from the very beginning and I was taught a method for throwing the reverse punch that was different than how it is done at my main dojo. Some of the aspects of how the reverse punch is thrown at the new dojo work better for me than how it is done at my main dojo and as such I've incorporated it into my training and I sometimes use it as its improved my technique. The legendary Gichin Funakoshi after some 50 or so years of training in Shotokan Karate found a method of throwing the reverse punch that was a little bit better for him.

So people who think they know it all, training in the martial arts, especially when you apply the idea of emptying your cup, can be a good cure for that.


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## Steve

Touch Of Death said:


> Think of your belt level as your ability to listen. By the time you reach black belt, you should have the courtesy, and the ability, to listen to anyone. If you instantly dismiss, you have been over promoted.


While I don't know of any styles that require high emotional intelligence and strong active listening skills for black belts, it's not a bad idea.  I think you'd see far fewer black belts that way.


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## Touch Of Death

Steve said:


> While I don't know of any styles that require high emotional intelligence and strong active listening skills for black belts, it's not a bad idea.  I think you'd see far fewer black belts that way.


Well, I wouldn't say it was about intelligence itself, I am talking about intelligent listening habits, which would naturally boost your intelligence.


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## Steve

Touch Of Death said:


> Well, I wouldn't say it was about intelligence itself, I am talking about intelligent listening habits, which would naturally boost your intelligence.


Emotional intelligence... Good listening is part of that.  You can have an average IQ but do quite well if you are emotionally intelligent.


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## Touch Of Death

Steve said:


> Emotional intelligence... Good listening is part of that.  You can have an average IQ but do quite well if you are emotionally intelligent.


l
Emotional intelligence, would be just one, of five types.


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## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> You don't just randomly empty you cup without good reason.  Context is everything.
> 
> If you are learning something new, best to learn it for its own merits and not try to force it to be like something you already know.  That is appropriate emptying of the cup.
> 
> And that does not automatically mean you have to throw away what you have already done before.  You might decide to do that, but it's not a given.


That's how I viewed the saying.  If I were to take karate then I would "empty my cup" by not trying to relate karate to Jow Ga.  Instead I should try to learn karate with an empty mind set similar to someone who doesn't know anything about fighting.  Sometimes it's the things that we know that get in the way of us learning, so when we learn something new, we should learn the subject based on its own merits.


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## Touch Of Death

It is also important to consider that a lot of people will tell you to, "empty your cup", but do they have the authority, or are they just in the habit of saying that?


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## PhotonGuy

Steve said:


> While I don't know of any styles that require high emotional intelligence and strong active listening skills for black belts, it's not a bad idea.  I think you'd see far fewer black belts that way.



You have to be good at listening in order to learn and without listening and learning you won't advance in rank so such stuff is required.


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## PhotonGuy

And being a good listener and good emotional intelligence are related.


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## Touch Of Death

PhotonGuy said:


> And being a good listener and good emotional intelligence are related.


As one of the filters, yes.


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## PhotonGuy

Well speaking of emptying your cup, there's the Dunning Kruger effect where people with a little bit of knowledge think they know it all. Its people like that who really need to empty their cup. On the other hand people who've reached great levels of expertise in given fields often underestimate their abilities because they realize there is so much more to learn. Here is a video that talks about the Dunning Kruger effect. The entire video is interesting but it doesn't start talking about the Dunning Kruger effect until 9:29


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## wingchun100

PhotonGuy said:


> Its sometimes said in the martial arts that you should empty your cup of knowledge. Another words, stop thinking you know so much and start learning from the beginning. By emptying your cup you have room to learn more stuff. If you ask me, its a good thing to do.


 
I wouldn't say it necessarily means "from the beginning." To me, it means you need to leave yourself room to learn new things. Don't throw out everything you already know to learn something new though.


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## PhotonGuy

wingchun100 said:


> I wouldn't say it necessarily means "from the beginning." To me, it means you need to leave yourself room to learn new things. Don't throw out everything you already know to learn something new though.


Well I think basically what its saying is don't be a know it all. Don't be somebody who thinks they know more than they do. Its the people who think they know it all who don't learn anything more since they already "know it all" as far as they're concerned and so its those such people who don't really know all that much.


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## Kung Fu Wang

deleted!


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## Gerry Seymour

wingchun100 said:


> I wouldn't say it necessarily means "from the beginning." To me, it means you need to leave yourself room to learn new things. Don't throw out everything you already know to learn something new though.


The concept doesn't refer to "throwing away" what you know, but setting it aside. If I go to a BJJ school, and when they start to show me a sweet BJJ takedown I start comparing it to what I already know and looking for the "aiki" gaps to work with and applying the principles I know to make it easier, I'm probably going to miss the principles they were trying to teach me. I won't be doing the technique, at all, probably - just something that looks like that technique. I already know my way. I should empty my cup while I'm there and learn theirs. Later, I can mix them in whatever way I want.


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