# "Money buys Freedom but not always happiness?"



## Chrisinmd (Jul 30, 2019)

I had an interesting discussion with a family member that you could buy freedom but not always happiness. I guess my take would be that this is at least partially true. From my personal experience I can buy plenty of things that are fun. Great vacation or experience that I really enjoy and had a lot of fun doing. Or an item i really enjoy. Not sure once these experiences are over im happy though. Guess I have good fun / happy memories to remember and smile about. Guess the other question would be if you are having fun are you happy? Are they one in the same thing?

I would relate this to drinking by saying when I go to a great party I have fun in the moment. 

I would agree 100 percent that money buys freedom. Ive been poor earlier in my life and now I would say im comfortably middle class. Its no fun to be living paycheck to paycheck and worrying how you can put food on the table and pay the bills. Stuck in a job you hate because you have really no choice because you need the money. Money gives you the freedom to not worry about a lot of different things and pursue your hobbies and passions that you truly enjoy. Cant do that if your working 60 hours a week to survive


So any thoughts on "Money buys Freedom but not always happiness?"


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## jobo (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I had an interesting discussion with a family member that you could buy freedom but not always happiness. I guess my take would be that this is at least partially true. From my personal experience I can buy plenty of things that are fun. Great vacation or experience that I really enjoy and had a lot of fun doing. Or an item i really enjoy. Not sure once these experiences are over im happy though. Guess I have good fun / happy memories to remember and smile about. Guess the other question would be if you are having fun are you happy? Are they one in the same thing?
> 
> I would relate this to drinking by saying when I go to a great party I have fun in the moment.
> 
> ...


money doesn't buy freedom unless you've got enough to buy your own island.
it does however give you options, there are things you can choose not to do and thinks you can choose to do, that aren't available to those that are living payday to payday.

there a connection between mental well being and poverty, but not between happiness and increasing amounts of money. you just want more and unnecessary things . that in themselves will not increase your happiness at all

drunken fun isn't happiness, unless your still happy the next day, that why people buy alcohol, its happiness in a bottle


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> it does however give you options, there are things you can choose not to do and thinks you can choose to do, that aren't available to those that are living payday to payday.



Very well said.  That was my point exactly.  "Options" is probably the better term for it that you used then how I described it as freedom.

Your correct happiness dosent increase with more money after a certain point.  I seen a study that says once you hit the $70,000 a year any money on top of that dosent make you much more happier. Of course 70,000 grand goes a lot farther in rural Kansas than it does in New York City so you have to take cost of living into account.  So basically once you have your basic needs are meant and you are comfortable any additional money doesn't increase your happiness that much.


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## Martial D (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I had an interesting discussion with a family member that you could buy freedom but not always happiness. I guess my take would be that this is at least partially true. From my personal experience I can buy plenty of things that are fun. Great vacation or experience that I really enjoy and had a lot of fun doing. Or an item i really enjoy. Not sure once these experiences are over im happy though. Guess I have good fun / happy memories to remember and smile about. Guess the other question would be if you are having fun are you happy? Are they one in the same thing?
> 
> I would relate this to drinking by saying when I go to a great party I have fun in the moment.
> 
> ...



I would disagree on both counts. It doesn't buy you either.

Some of the happiest people I know have nothing, while some of the most miserable c#nts are rich.

Freedom..yes and no. Generally those that have lots are slaves to it. Sure they have more options, but they don't always really as their lives are enslaved to getting more and keeping it.


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## Buka (Jul 30, 2019)

Money might not buy happiness, but it's one hell of a down payment. I can say that because I've spent most of my life happy without having the accompanying money

But, heck fire and golly gee, I'd much rather cry in a Bentley. I'd look the berries in a Bentley.


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## granfire (Jul 30, 2019)

try being poor and see how free you are.


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## drop bear (Jul 31, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I had an interesting discussion with a family member that you could buy freedom but not always happiness. I guess my take would be that this is at least partially true. From my personal experience I can buy plenty of things that are fun. Great vacation or experience that I really enjoy and had a lot of fun doing. Or an item i really enjoy. Not sure once these experiences are over im happy though. Guess I have good fun / happy memories to remember and smile about. Guess the other question would be if you are having fun are you happy? Are they one in the same thing?
> 
> I would relate this to drinking by saying when I go to a great party I have fun in the moment.
> 
> ...



I raised this idea in another thread.

There is a difference between happiness and fulfillment.

And I think people confuse the two.


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## laurameida (Aug 11, 2021)

In fact, it all depends on what happiness is for you. For someone, happiness is millions of dollars, and for someone, happiness is a sip of water. But as for me, I think otherwise. My happiness is not money, my happiness is what I can get for money. My dream is to travel around the world, and it's quite expensive. And if I have a lot of money, then I will be able to travel around the world. In this case, am I buying my happiness? Or do I achieve it with the help of money? Everyone thinks in their own way, but for me, money is not the ultimate goal, but just a tool that will help me achieve my goal. So people who are chasing money are fools for me, you need to chase your dream, and money will help you in this.


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## Chrisinmd (Aug 11, 2021)

laurameida said:


> My happiness is not money, my happiness is what I can get for money. My dream is to travel around the world, and it's quite expensive. And if I have a lot of money, then I will be able to travel around the world. In this case, am I buying my happiness? Or do I achieve it with the help of money? Everyone thinks in their own way, but for me, money is not the ultimate goal, but just a tool that will help me achieve my goal.



Very true.  Traveling to new places makes me happy.  I need money to accomplish it.  So its not the money itself that makes me happy but that is allows me to pursue my interests and passions.

For example if a guy gets true joy from riding his brand new Harley motorcycle he got the joy as a result of having the money to buy the motorcycle in the first place!


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## Steve (Aug 11, 2021)

Chrisinmd said:


> I had an interesting discussion with a family member that you could buy freedom but not always happiness. I guess my take would be that this is at least partially true. From my personal experience I can buy plenty of things that are fun. Great vacation or experience that I really enjoy and had a lot of fun doing. Or an item i really enjoy. Not sure once these experiences are over im happy though. Guess I have good fun / happy memories to remember and smile about. Guess the other question would be if you are having fun are you happy? Are they one in the same thing?
> 
> I would relate this to drinking by saying when I go to a great party I have fun in the moment.
> 
> ...


I have worked with people who are desperately poor, usually disabled.  I'm talking about people who have a net worth of less than a couple of thousand dollars.  There's a point where people have enough money to start thinking about more than survival, where the stress of worrying about whether you can pay rent next month, buy food, pay for medicine, keep gas in the car, stops gnawing at your stomach.  I've been that poor.  My family has been that poor.  There was a time, after I got out of the Air Force, where I couldn't get a job, had no heat or electricity turned on in my (literally) rat infested apartment, and was eating a stack of pancakes every three days because it was the cheapest thing that I could order and was filling.

I can tell you from both my personal and professional experience that poverty ages you.  It causes health issues.  It can affect your behavior and your cognitive function.   Every thought you have is about short term survival.  Where's my next meal?  How am I paying for gas?  Can I pay rent?  You have no bandwidth to think strategically about long term goals, and any higher level functioning is right out.  

Having money, in my opinion, isn't necessarily about being rich.  It's about having enough money that you can literally afford to think about other things.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 11, 2021)

For me, you're not truly free unless you're free from responsibility.  And the people that are the closest to experiencing that type of freedom are the homeless.  More money means more responsibility.  Why?  Because you have more to lose.  You're free when you have nothing to lose.

For example: say the wrong thing on social media, and you'll lose your cushy job.  You think homeless people are worried about that?  Hell no.  Once they've solved the problem of getting a bite to eat and finding a spot where they can get some undisturbed sleep, they're good for the day.


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## Steve (Aug 11, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> For me, you're not truly free unless you're free from responsibility.  And the people that are the closest to experiencing that type of freedom are the homeless.  More money means more responsibility.  Why?  Because you have more to lose.  You're free when you have nothing to lose.
> 
> For example: say the wrong thing on social media, and you'll lose your cushy job.  You think homeless people are worried about that?  Hell no.  Once they've solved the problem of getting a bite to eat and finding a spot where they can get some undisturbed sleep, they're good for the day.



I don't know how to react to this post.  Do you know some people who are homeless by choice in a search for "true freedom?"  I've worked with a lot of people who are homeless, and seen a lot of different things that have led them there, but that's a new one for me.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 11, 2021)

Steve said:


> I don't know how to react to this post.  Do you know some people who are homeless by choice in a search for "true freedom?"  I've worked with a lot of people who are homeless, and seen a lot of different things that have led them there, but that's a new one for me.



I'm fully aware that the majority of the homeless are in their situation due to things like psychiatric conditions, severe drug addiction that prevents them from functioning normally in society, etc.

There are various different terminologies for homeless people (each with their own meanings), but most hobos (defined as homeless people who lead a "drifter" lifestyle, and earn money by performing odd jobs and day labor) are voluntarily homeless.

I actually would have taken a stab at that lifestyle myself, but I got married and had children before I gained an interest in it.

I suppose that, whether or not a particular person's homelessness is voluntary, they're fully aware of their freedom.

One example that proves this, is the refusal of many to sleep in homeless shelters in order to avoid living by someone else's rules.


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## Argus (Aug 11, 2021)

Assets buy you freedom. Liabilities take it away.

If you have a net worth of $10 million, but you buy a yacht, an extremely expensive house, expensive cars, etc. etc., how free are you? You had better work really hard if your yearly expenses are $9 million.

On the other hand, if you are willing to live a modest life, and have maybe $80,000 in expenses per year, but have a $1,000,000 portfolio producing income for you, then heck yeah, you have a lot of freedom. More so than the guy who is living up to his means, no matter how much he makes.

One of my goals is to, some day, attain this sort of financial freedom so that I can do more of what I really care the most about. If you can save and invest and live modestly, that allows you to do all kinds of really meaningful things in life, be it traveling, volunteering, starting a meaningful business, devoting time to creative or intellectual pursuits, or, indeed, training with the people you want to, all over the world. Buy land, start a farm, open a martial arts school -- whatever it is that you really want to do and which will actually enrich your life.

The value of money is dependent on you, and how you use it. If you spend it on liabilities, you'll simply enslave yourself to lifestyle creep. Invest it wisely, and you will gain more freedom and options, not less.


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## Tez3 (Aug 12, 2021)

Interesting that money defines what class you are in the US, elsewhere it doesn't ,where changing your class because your financial situation changes doesn't really happen, you can be rich working class or poor middle class even upper class (the theme for many an English novel). It's an interesting subject.

I saw an interesting quote the other day, "you are only rich when you have something money can't buy"


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 12, 2021)

We're in a martial arts forum, talking about money and freedom, and the big shocker is that _Fight Club_ hasn't come up yet!

If you haven't yet seen it (or read the book), it illustrates a lot of what I'm talking about.

Two of my favorite quotes from _Fight Club_:

- _"It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything."

- "...working jobs we hate, so we can buy $#!+ that we don't need."_


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 12, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Interesting that money defines what class you are in the US, *elsewhere it doesn't ,*


Money defines your class in countries that do not have royalty, nobility, peerage, or existing remnants thereof.

In fact, this is even moreso the case in Latin America than in the US.

Brazil, a country whose race problems aren't much different than in many other counties, has a saying: "Money whitens."

What that means is that a monoracial dark-skinned black Brazilian is basically "white," if he has enough money.  Not the case in the US by a long shot.  You can be president of the US and still get called the n-word.


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## Steve (Aug 12, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Interesting that money defines what class you are in the US, elsewhere it doesn't ,where changing your class because your financial situation changes doesn't really happen, you can be rich working class or poor middle class even upper class (the theme for many an English novel). It's an interesting subject.
> 
> I saw an interesting quote the other day, "you are only rich when you have something money can't buy"


Now I feel like I need to go read Mansfield Park again.


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## Steve (Aug 12, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> We're in a martial arts forum, talking about money and freedom, and the big shocker is that _Fight Club_ hasn't come up yet!
> 
> If you haven't yet seen it (or read the book), it illustrates a lot of what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


I think you have a very romantic idea of homelessness and freedom.  My experience with homelessness, personally and professionally, is that it's stressful, unhealthy, and generally involuntary.  Whether someone who is homeless trusts institutions is unrelated to whether they are homeless by choice, as a part of some noble pursuit of freedom.  

To be clear, I think Thorstein Veblen was right when he first defined conspicuous consumption and the idea of ceremonial adequacy back around the turn of the 20th century.  But financial stability is not the same as gross consumerism.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 12, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think you have a very romantic idea of homelessness and freedom.  My experience with homelessness, personally and professionally, is that it's stressful, unhealthy, and generally involuntary.


So I have experienced homelessness, and I'll admit that my claim to homelessness is one that someone who has ever lived in a box on Skid Row would laugh at:

While I was active duty, I was going through a divorce.  We were living in base housing, but the rule is that I can't continue living there if I'm separated and the spouse has moved out.

I had to pay spousal support, and because of all the debts I was stuck with upon separating, I would not have had the money pay the spousal support if I had accepted single living quarters (because you don't get BAH, or basic allowance for housing, if you're assigned quarters - whether single or family unit).

There was one exception to this: there was what was called "geo-bachelor barracks," which existed for married personnel whose spouses lived outside of the area.  And because the military isn't legally obligated to offer them, there's no standards that geo-bachelor barracks are required to meet.

I learned this the hard way when I tried to check in: it was open bay, with beds separated by stained curtains.  The floor had missing tiles - I mean, the place was just filthy.

So I went right back and handed them the key, and decided to sleep in my car.

I did this for a few months, until the divorce was final, and I was able to get my own apartment again.

During those months, I kept separate boxes of clean and dirty laundry in the trunk, I took showers at the gym every morning, and I had friends who allowed me to iron my uniforms at their place.  I also had a friend at Pizza Hut who would give me food at the end of her shift, from call-in orders that never got picked up.

Would I do that again for "freedom," if I didn't have a wife and children to take care of?  Yes.


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## Tez3 (Aug 12, 2021)

Steve said:


> Now I feel like I need to go read Mansfield Park again.



The Buccaneers by Edith Wharton. 
Cranford by Elizabeth Gaskell is especially good.


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## donald1 (Aug 13, 2021)

Money buys my happiness. I pay bills and have loved the air conditioner throughout summer so far. The hole in my wallet leaves a sour taste in my mouth but the pros outweigh the cons.

Money covers monthly martial arts fees. Happy times indeed.

Buying weapons for martial arts never fails to put a smile on my face.

Every Saturday I rent redbox movies and it's always a blast!


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## Argus (Aug 14, 2021)

donald1 said:


> Money buys my happiness. I pay bills and have loved the air conditioner throughout summer so far. The hole in my wallet leaves a sour taste in my mouth but the pros outweigh the cons.
> 
> Money covers monthly martial arts fees. Happy times indeed.
> 
> ...



Money buys what you use it for.

You happen to be using it productively, and that enables a happy life.

You can also use it to make your life miserable. Many people do.

Like anything, it's what you do with it that matters.


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## Argus (Aug 14, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Interesting that money defines what class you are in the US, elsewhere it doesn't ,where changing your class because your financial situation changes doesn't really happen, you can be rich working class or poor middle class even upper class (the theme for many an English novel). It's an interesting subject.
> 
> I saw an interesting quote the other day, "you are only rich when you have something money can't buy"



I'm not so sure this is true at all.

I think what you're observing is more manufactured perception than reality.

I grew up in America, and I currently live overseas. I know quite a lot about other cultures. And I would say that, in my experience, America is one of the least class based, and most meritocratic societies. Not quite as much as it used to be, but more so than most places even to this day. Not to say that it's perfect by a long shot, but the very vast majority of people, wealthy or otherwise, could really, really care less about class or how much money you make. They don't even talk about it. They care about what you have to bring to the table.

The impression that in America you are defined by money/class, and race, certainly is strong, and this is mostly pedaled by a certain political faction which has a strong interest in such divides existing, because they're really good divides by which to divide and conquer politically. At least, that's my conclusion having studied many, many political upheavals, ethnic conflicts, civil wars, and genocides. Everyone is welcome to differ of course, but I'm just suggesting that people treat the media, especially the U.S. media, for what it is: political propaganda, the goal of which is to push a specific narrative, not to actually convey factual information. Do your own critical thinking and research and come to your own conclusions, rather than just taking things at face value, and I think you'll eventually agree with me.

I currently live in a country which is in stark contrast to the United States, and it's hugely refreshing to be around people who haven't become ideologues and extremists on *both* sides of the isle.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get political here -- I just want to warn that perceptions may not be reality, and that there are a lot of dishonest entities hard at work trying to divide us by outwards appearances and superficial / fleeting circumstances. We're all actually on the same side, and in the same boat. The more we respect and hear one another, and question divisive narratives, the more we might actually discover that.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2021)

Argus said:


> I'm not so sure this is true at all.
> 
> I think what you're observing is more manufactured perception than reality.
> 
> ...




Well, it wasn't my perception, I was commenting on what an American poster has said about being middle class now they had some money. It was America as defined by an American.

I appreciate you think you are giving me good advice but frankly it comes  across as patronising. I merely said it was interesting that class is defined by wealth ....... as posted by an American who is obviously defining class by money. Nothing to do with me following media or not thinking critically. It wasn't my perception as I said,however my comments about the UK are certainly true based on my experience of actually being British for nearly 68 years now.


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## Argus (Aug 15, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Well, it wasn't my perception, I was commenting on what an American poster has said about being middle class now they had some money. It was America as defined by an American.
> 
> I appreciate you think you are giving me good advice but frankly it comes  across as patronising. I merely said it was interesting that class is defined by wealth ....... as posted by an American who is obviously defining class by money. Nothing to do with me following media or not thinking critically. It wasn't my perception as I said,however my comments about the UK are certainly true based on my experience of actually being British for nearly 68 years now.



Oh, I see. I wasn't sure where your comments were coming from or what gave you that impression.

And, yikes! I owe you an apology. I didn't realize how patronizing that sounded. I especially didn't mean to imply that you weren't thinking critically -- I just thought that perhaps your impression of America was based on a certain sample that I would call into question.

I intend to respect (and learn from!) as many people and their diverse experiences and perspectives as I can. Sometimes I call out things that just don't seem to be accurate, given my experiences and perspective, but I'm always willing to hear and weigh information to the contrary. My aim is always to question, and be questioned.

It may very well be, for example, that I just don't surround myself with the sort of people for whom status is important, or the culture where I grew up just didn't happen to be that way, and so maybe I have, myself, a biased sample on which to base my perceptions.

My suspicion, though, is that it's just an element of human nature, and certain personality types, though -- and that doesn't really change no-matter where you go. The only difference is how much opportunity that people of all classes have to prosper, and that's what I feel much more worthwhile to focus on.


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## Tez3 (Aug 19, 2021)

Argus said:


> Oh, I see. I wasn't sure where your comments were coming from or what gave you that impression.
> 
> And, yikes! I owe you an apology. I didn't realize how patronizing that sounded. I especially didn't mean to imply that you weren't thinking critically -- I just thought that perhaps your impression of America was based on a certain sample that I would call into question.
> 
> ...



No worries, often comments are lost if they aren't quoted directly, I could quote anything when I used a desk top but am stuck with a tablet at the moment and seem more limited making my posts less clear when I can't post everything I'm commenting on.

Without getting political the make up of our current government makes class 'a thing' again, the PM and his cronies are Old Etonians, this establishment has taught Kings, Emperors, military and civil leaders since 1440 CE, it reinforces class and the 'superiority ' of the ruling class. If you look up who went there, as well as our other famous Public schools you can see actually how hard it is to shake off our class system, sometimes it does seem to face a bit but it's back again at the moment. 😕😕


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## juliapaulson789 (Oct 25, 2021)

donald1 said:


> My happiness is purchased with money. I pay bills and have enjoyed the air conditioner system so far this summer. Although the hole in my pocketbook leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.
> 
> Money is used to pay for martial arts lessons on a monthly basis. It's a wonderful time.
> 
> ...


Money Buy happiness because those who have money can buy everything to enjoy life. Throughout the summer air conditioner is needed for cooling. For Martial arts, this is really important.


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## Urban Trekker (Oct 26, 2021)

juliapaulson789 said:


> Money Buy happiness because those who have money can buy everything to enjoy life. Throughout the summer air conditioner is needed for cooling. For Martial arts, this is really important.



I think if someone says that "money buys freedom," they're referring to the concept of having "f*** you money."


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2021)

Chrisinmd said:


> So any thoughts on "Money buys Freedom but not always happiness?"


A: Money buys Freedom but not always happiness.
B: Money won't by you happiness, but without money, you are definitely unhappy.


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## Steve (Oct 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: Money buys Freedom but not always happiness.
> B: Money won't by you happiness, but without money, you are definitely unhappy.


But I thought the best things in life are free.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> But I thought the best things in life are free.


You can't be free without money. If you have money, women, happiness, freedom, ... will all come to you.

One joke that I Like very much.

A: The saddest thing that can happen to you is the day you die, you haven't spent all your money yet.
B: The saddest thing that can happen to you is before you die, you have spent all your money.


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## Gyakuto (Sep 25, 2022)

There is the expectation that our lives should be _filled_ with exhilarating joy! Screaming, fist-pumping, great music and the absolute certainty of ‘getting a grip‘ with an attractive women at the end of an evening. This seems to be more prevalent amongst the social media-using, younger members of society. In fact, our lives are mainly lived with a lack of sadness. That is the default setting.  We have _some_ money, we don’t hate or love our jobs, we can eat and drink without worry, socialise within our own parameters a bit, have a reliable albeit average car, a relatively permanent roof over our heads, a loved one who cares somewhat about us. Life is ‘beige’, drama-less, punctuated occasionally, with something a little more exciting than that, perhaps unadulterated joy, but generally ‘beige‘ and I’m _completely_ happy with that!

I am becoming increasingly selectively-misanthropic as I get older. Money sometimes provides options to avoid mingling with those who irritate me or indeed allows me to associate with like-minded people (like joining a private members, gentleman’s club). That reduces the worry of having to suffer the irritation of inadvertently associating with people I do not like (generally those who don’t like my jokes, my guitar playing or my pearls of diamond-coated wisdom). Yes…I’m a grumpy ‘getting-older‘ man.


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