# Newbi here, Considering TSD



## Kframe (May 17, 2011)

Hi, I figured id post here with my questions then reviving my dead newbi advice thread in general talk. I Mentioned in general talk that im considering 3 martial arts for fitness and self defense. 1.mma.2tkd and 3. TSD. 

Right now im split between TSD and MMA. I have found very good schools for both styles of fighting and now i have to decide which one im going to do. I know its not the style that matters but the mindset and training behind it. Specificly training with selfdefense in mind vs other aspects. 

Ok having said all that, can anyone give me a kind of general overview of TSD. How similar is it to TKD? My father did TKD and swears by it, would he recognize any of it? How solid are the moves as far as self defense is concerned? Its not overely kickcentric is it, does it include any hand work? Does it do anything for ground fighting, or how to avoid it or get off the ground should i end up there?? 

How effective are the blocking and other defensive techniques? The mma instructor i talked to favors passive defense, instead of physically blocking incoming attacks. He said he watched a man at a match break his arm blocking a kick. Does TSD have many takedowns and throws? Does it have any techniques and training for dealing with attackers who get in close, out of kick range. I guess clinch is the term im looking for here. Basicly very cose range. 

How well does TSD handle punching and developing punching power.(see my post in general talk to see why im concerned about that) 

IS there a pro and con of going the TSD route vs the MMA route. In your opinion what tools what TSD give me that mma wont. (tools wise)

Right now im kinda enamored with mma. When i talked to the mma coach and gave him senarios and what not he was able to give me a difinative response to each, and why it was in his opinion better then a traditional art. That includes the stuff about active vs passive blocking/incoming attack defense. Also he mentioned very close range attacks, that are to close for kicking. Saying that most tma dont have a good response for very close range attacks. 

Im not trying to bash TSD, im wanting to learn. I may be enamored with MMA right now, but I wont total count out TSD. I want to keep my options open and maybe find some information here that could help change my mind. 

So TSD people, what does TSD bring to the table over mma? I look forward to the discussion, honestly. I find my self intriged by the cousin to TKD.


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## SahBumNimRush (May 18, 2011)

Kframe said:


> Hi, I figured id post here with my questions then reviving my dead newbi advice thread in general talk. I Mentioned in general talk that im considering 3 martial arts for fitness and self defense. 1.mma.2tkd and 3. TSD.
> 
> Right now im split between TSD and MMA. I have found very good schools for both styles of fighting and now i have to decide which one im going to do. I know its not the style that matters but the mindset and training behind it. Specificly training with selfdefense in mind vs other aspects.
> 
> ...




As many on here will tell you, it's not necessarily about the art, but more about the instructor.  I practice TSD, and we address all ranges of combat, including the close range you are speaking of.   The one part that I would say we are weak in is the ground fighting.  While we teach techs for take downs and locks, fighting while on the ground is something we don't focus much on.  

Although we use our hands and feet equally, IMHO TSD is a kicking art.  It takes time to develop the control, speed, and accuracy required to kick people in the head.  It used to be TKD and TSD practitioners were known as head hunters, because we kick to the head.  Now, nearly all combat sports have head kicks in their repetoire, due in part to the success of the TKD/TSD head kicks.  

To be honest, I am mostly ignorant about MMA, barring what I see on television.  

As for the similarities between TKD and TSD, again it depends on the school.  TSD and TKD basically evolved from the same art, so depending on how "old school" the TKD or TSD is, it may look very familiar to your father. 

The one thing I can say TSD probably brings to the table that MMA does not is its focus on personal development.  While MMA may foster this, it isn't a main focus.  TSD's primary goal is personal development; mentally, physically, and spiritually.  Combining Confucian principles with a military structure fosters many things including self-defense, self-discipline, self-confidence, self-respect, focus, humility, perserverance, strength, speed, balance, etc.. .

Hopefully, this helps and doesn't muddy the water too much.


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## Kframe (May 18, 2011)

Thank you for responding so quickly. I appreciate your imput. I agree with your assesment of the personal growth aspect of mma. When you go to there gyms , they tend to be solely focused on developing the martial skills, and not the philosophy and humility aspects much at all. My take on it, is morality and humility are the responsibility of the student. If he didnt have any at the beggining, he wont get them in the end. 

I do understand now, why tkd/tsd schools focus so much of the training time on the kicks, they are harder to learn and do correctly. 

The reason im looking at tsd for my tma needs, is that it is so difficult to find non sporting tkd schools. Almost all of them in my area are sporting in nature. 

I heard that there are differences in the types of kicking that TSD does from TKD, i have read that TSD does less of the flashy stuff and more down to earth style kicking. Can you point out a differences and similarities for me?

Thanks again for reading and responding, i do want to learn more about the 2 styles before i settle on one of them.


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## SahBumNimRush (May 18, 2011)

Again, it really depends on the school.  Some TKD schools don't teach or practice the flashy aerial/acrobatic sport kicks, and others do.  In general, it depends on the focus of the school.  Traditional TKD and TSD should have nearly identical kicks, but sport TKD will focus on sparring kicks vs. real kicks.  For instance, if you look at olympic style sparring, their roundhouse kicks are vastly different than what I practice.  But the olympic roundhouse isn't meant to be powerful, it's meant to be fast.  Many on here may disagree with me, but this is just a generalization based on my experience.  

Let's look at it this way.  What is the focus of sport martial arts?  Winning a competition.  So the techniques are going to be focused around the rules of the competition.  Losing a bit of waist extension to gain speed equates to losing power.  Hand techniques tend to be less focused because in the majority of Sport TKD competitions it can be difficult to actually score a point with your hands.  

The same perspective can be given to MMA, since it is a combat sport, techniques are developed to excel within the competition.  For example, the rush for the hips takedown (unsure what you call it), on the street you are exposing your back, neck and head, but since you aren't allowed to hit the spine it doesn't matter in competition.

Again the same perspective can be given to TSD, which in competition is akin to Karate point sparring.  So it's always good to visit the school to understand what the school's main focus is; traditional, sport, or hybrid.  

At my school we practice kicks like the flying side kick, for demonstration purposes. However, it is an exhibition of athletic ability and none of my students have the delusion that they would use it on the street.


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## Kframe (May 18, 2011)

Thanks again for the input! It seams, as you pointed out, that there is a disparity between any given school. Youd think, that coming from a common background that the schools would all have a similar course of study. 

Me personaly i just wanna learn to throw a good punch, throw simple and effective kicks, use my knees and elbos effectively and not stink on ice when the fight hits the ground. 

My other question is regarding defending. What is your stance on active blocking vs passive defending? I can see the benifits of both, as well as the draw backs of each. What are your thoughts.  I ask, becuase i have watched some videos here and on youtube of traditional guys, going to tournaments and what i saw didnt look like a martial art to me. None of them used any recognizeable stance, and no one ever threw what looked like a block that i saw practiced in kata. Nor did it look like any blook that practiced when i took shorin ryu for 2.5months. 

When i watch these videos, the fighters, who had been training for years, who obviously would have all the stances and blocks and moves ingrained in to muscle memory, devolved into something that looked vaguely like kick boxing.


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## AdamR (May 19, 2011)

I think the best thing would be to _try_ each of these options and see what you enjoy the most. It's all very well saying you want x,y and z from your chosen art(s), but if you don't enjoy your training it's all moot as you won't stick at it. SBN Rush is right, a school of _any_ art is only as good as its instructor. You can read on the internet and in books as much as you like, but you won't know until you try.

Your question about blocking is worth asking, but the first thing most instructors (I imagine) will tell you about the blocks in the kata/hyung you see is that they aren't blocks. Yeah, they're taught as blocks, but in practical application you want to be looking at the half-way transitional positions between moves as the blocks, those are the parts with the covering of your soft organs, deflections and lateral movement. The blocks themselves will normally be attacks, throws or locks once you start learning the applications.

You sound to me like you like the idea of good stand-up skills, but want some groundwork too. I'd say try the TSD/TKD classes in your area, see which you like the most, then supplement at a later date with a good groundwork/submission style like BJJ. That way you get the benefit of everything that goes along with a TMA (spiritual, scholar, whatever you want to call it) along with the skills to cope with most situations.


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## PooterMan (May 19, 2011)

I would just like to throw in my $.02 in agreement....The instructor is the most important part to me.  This will sound silly, but within 20 miles of me, the TSD studio was the only martial art available.  So I didn't have a choice.  HOWEVER, in the long run I'm glad this was my only option.  I respect my instructor completely. 
 At my age (nearing 50), I really hadn't planned on joining UFC, and like most people, I gotta get up and go to work in the morning so I'd rather not show up to work every other week with cauliflower ear or a shiner.  So TSD gave me:
1. Self Defense
2. Increased Flexibility
3. More endurance
4. Stress relief
5. Another Family (Studio & WTSDA - World Tang Soo Do Association).
    I could approach any Master at an event and ask a question about a technique. Some organizations the masters won't even talk to you unless you are high enough rank.
Even though WTSDA is traditional, there are still tournaments, clinics, black belt workouts etc all over the region to attend.

My instructor is a down to earth working man who doesn't teach the class to make money (I think he barely breaks even). He teaches it because he wants to.
If you are young and WANT to fight, MMA might be great for you. I'd rather NOT take it to the ground. Traditional Tae Kwon Do would have also been good for me I think. Same things TSD teaches. avoidance, transition blocks, making sure blocks/strikes all start from the ground up. Distance, Timing, Targeting. The only thing I wish I could learn more of are joint locks like hapkido does)

For anyone looking to Join a Martial Art, see whats available in your area. Take into consideration what you want to accomplish, then go watch a class & see how the instructor relates to the students. (and how the students relate to the instructor).  Most studios will also let you try a class for free.


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## OldKarateGuy (May 21, 2011)

As always, I'm a little late to the OP. if your primary goal is self-defense, I must suggest that MMA is not all that practical (and I know others will disagree). I say this respectfully, but MMA is a competitive sport, like boxing. In a real self-defense situation, the last thing you want to do is go to the ground. You are just too vulnerable if your opponent has friends. Likewise, many experienced martial artists will tell you that, most of the time, high kicks are not practical in a real fight. However, as long as you recognize the danger of someone grabbing your leg, kicks, especially low level kicks, can be very effective. For that matter, so can sweeps and take-downs, as long as your strategy is to finish the fight quickly and not mess about rolling on the ground. I'd suggest a hard striking art. Then when you gain some degree of ability in that core art, maybe then try judo/aikido/hapkido. However, know that most point sparring in traditional martial arts these days is severely limited by liability worries, so you'll likely wear padding, have unrealistic, restrictive rules, etc. 

A lot depends on the individual school and instructor. Most traditional arts include some sense of fitness, flexibility, life values, and the like, including importantly, injury prevention. MMA is like boxing; it will be ground and pound and proceed at your own risk.  

Frankly, that old saying about "No superior martial art, only superior martial artists" is, like most cliches, pretty much true. But you'll be much more well-rounded with a traditional Asian art. 

Good luck.


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## Kframe (May 22, 2011)

My reason for wanting to do mma is to develop my ground skills concurantly with my desire to learn to punch and kick good. My fear is that if i start with a tma and do a hard striking art for a few years, thats a few years of not practicing any ground skills at all. While id prefere the fight stay on my feet, Mr. Murphy is always near by and you never know if it will go to ground. 

Having said that, im still 50/50  on weather im doing tsd or mma. I cant wait to take the free classes and judge for my self. Im more worried about learning and having a good foundation and not throwing feathers at people.


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## PooterMan (May 23, 2011)

however on the desire to "punch and kick good", I'd rather learn to block and avoid good ;-)

Don't remember who said it, but I believe theres an old adage of something like... "if your opponent throws a hundred punches at you and you block all of them...you won".


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## Manny (May 25, 2011)

Hola amigo, before I start I want to tell you there is no martial art that teachs everithing scenarios possible, for example TKD and TSD focuses on kicks, yes they have strong punches, and locks, and trows and lack ground figthing as Benjamin told you, in the other hand Karate has almost the same as TKD/TSD but focuses on hand techs, in the other hand Judo has punches and kicks (some) but focuses on trows, aikido has atemies but focuses in evasion,trows,locks,etc.

As you may see there is no one martial art that has everithing and if it does this martial art don't focus in anything.

I am a TKDoing and I agree with my compadres here, giving the Olimpics movement the majority of TKD Dojangs focus in kicks and  footwork developed for the olimpics competition, however there are some tkd dojangs tha focuses on self defense too, I am one of these guys, who teachs Clasic TKD

If you feel you want to try MMA then go with it, it's a good exercise and certainly they can teach you how to defened your self but be advise that MMA is going only to teach some kicks, some punches, some takedowns,and SOME is meaning for you are not going to learn more than something

If you want ground fight go with BJJ, if you want to be a puncher then do box, if you want to get inside a ring and kick and punch then go for kickboxing, if you want to know how to control people then go for judo or akidido.

TKD evolved from TSD and other martial arts.

Now if you want to learn something that can be useful in the streets you can go with waht ever martial art you want, there you will found loyalty, integrity, respect, and so many more things besides self defense, in MMA you are not gona find these things

Other MA available is Hap Ki Do it has hand techs, kicks,trows,joint locks, etc.

Just try one and let us know.

manny


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## Kframe (May 25, 2011)

Well manny, the mma school im considering teaches boxing kickboxing and bjj. The teacher has a long history with TKD so i expect to see alot of tkd style kicks in it.


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