# Low Carb Craze



## KenpoTess (Jun 11, 2004)

McDonald's gets low-carb Coke 

No. 1 fast-food chain to offer new C2 cola in a limited number of its restaurants.
June 11, 2004: 10:41 AM EDT 



NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - McDonald's Corp., the No .1 fast-food chain that's been on a mission to its revamp its image, said it will offer Coca-Cola's new low-carb "C2" cola in a limited number of its restaurants. 

Oak Brook- Ill.-based McDonald's (MCD: Research, Estimates), announced late Thursday that the company is sampling C2 in about 27 restaurants in five markets, including Atlanta, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and Orlando. 

"We're responding again to what our consumers are telling us they want," Don Knauss, McDonald's chief operating officer of its North America division, said in a statement.

The Rest of the article 

I'm gonna hoard my carbs cuz before you know it.. they'll be GONE~!!  *twitches*


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## loki09789 (Jun 11, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> McDonald's gets low-carb Coke
> 
> No. 1 fast-food chain to offer new C2 cola in a limited number of its restaurants.
> June 11, 2004: 10:41 AM EDT
> ...


I know that there is a huge Carb bad push for Atkins styles of diets in the States.  It reminds me of the Nautilus and Bow Flex promotional push just with food.

I just wonder how popular it is in Euro/other countries.  
Just seems that if you are replacing a high carb intake with veggie sources (which statistically we don't eat enough of) you are going in the right direction -as long as your not gorging on the stuff.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 11, 2004)

Low carbs work but I have to eat a little more before exercise.  Re: coke, I thought that was called D-I-E-T.  Anyway, that stuff is bad for you.  Read Shaolin Wolf's thread on that.  I still believe it can clean stuff.  

On the other hand, all the low "carb" food coming out, is not necessarily good for you.  Read the labels.  Low carb, additives, and high FAT as in the Atkins candy bars.  Bad fats = high cholesterol. South Beach advocates olive oil in moderation which is a good fat and helps arteries clean out.  But it is still a fat, 120 cal. per tablespoon.  That's why Atkins people who overeat fat, bacon and high fat steak aren't losing and are getting into the heart attack/stroke range thinking they are on a healthy diet. There was a recent law suit in the news about that.

You can't possibly eat too many veggies.  After eating what South Beach advocates each day, you have quite had the quota on salad and veggies.  But it is a new kind of energy, really feel healthy.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 11, 2004)

I have to wonder just how many variations you can do on 1 product.

We have Coke
Original Coke
New Formula Coke
Diet Coke
Coke Lite
Diet Lemon Coke
Diet Lime Coke
Cherry Coke

and now, new Low Carb Coke.

Y'know what?  Screw em, I'm gonna go buy me some Jolt Cola.
Twice the Caffine, Twice the Sugar.

Then, I'm gonna put an extra 30 minutes in in my workout today, and go eat a normal, balanced diet of healthy, natural foods.

(Homegrown Tomatoe, letuce salad and homemade chicken soup)


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## shesulsa (Jun 11, 2004)

Ya know, I agree...I was taught by a nutritionist who kind of bucked the system on the whole food pyramid thing that there is a difference between "leaded" carbs and "clean" carbs - her meaning being that carbohydrate foods containing fiber...we all those whole grains...are fine, just don't mix your starches with your animal-based proteins.  So, you can have vegetables with anything, meat or starch, but don't have meat with bread, pasta, (whole-grain brown rice or wild rice is okay because it's actually much higher in protein) potatos.

And Tigerwoman, you're absolutely right - take out the carbs and they add fat and salt.  Take out the fat, they add carbs and salt.  Take out the salt and they add fat and carbs...anyone noticing a pattern?

And...kill the soda...for women especially, carbonated beverages leech calcium right out of your bones.

I think if you eat 90% of your foods that have no label on them (whole foods, not canned or processed), drink filtered water and watch your sugar intake and your electrolytes you'll probably do just fine.

Just my little .02.


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## Ender (Jun 11, 2004)

but can ya "super-size" em?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 11, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I have to wonder just how many variations you can do on 1 product.
> 
> We have Coke
> Original Coke
> ...




You fergot Vanilla Coke, and Diet Vanilla Coke.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 11, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> And...kill the soda...for women especially, carbonated beverages leech calcium right out of your bones.



Actually, isnt that the Carmel Coloring they use in most soft drinks that does that, not the Carbonation? Beer is carbonated, and I have never heard that it depletes calcium.

If it did, Id have no bones left!

LOL!


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## shesulsa (Jun 12, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Actually, isnt that the Carmel Coloring they use in most soft drinks that does that, not the Carbonation? Beer is carbonated, and I have never heard that it depletes calcium.
> 
> If it did, Id have no bones left!
> 
> LOL!


:roflmao:
oh hell, who cares??   :cheers:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 12, 2004)

Low carb  :jedi1:  makes me want to  :barf: !


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## RCastillo (Jun 12, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Low carb  :jedi1:  makes me want to  :barf: !




Works for me. I wanna get ripped like you. You're my hero! :uhyeah:


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## Stick Dummy (Jun 12, 2004)

I tried to get Jason on the kenpo diet, Octopus & Wassabe but he wasn't biting............ :uhyeah: 

Oh, thats what a diet is isn't it??????????/


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 12, 2004)

Hmm...man, I wish I had the $$ to go on a sushi diet.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 12, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Works for me. I wanna get ripped like you. You're my hero! :uhyeah:



I'm nobody's hero.  The only reason I looked ripped is because I can't gain any weight. No matter what/how much I eat I'm not gaining any. Each time I use the impedance meter I lose more BF%.  :idunno:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 12, 2004)

Stick Dummy said:
			
		

> I tried to get Jason on the kenpo diet, Octopus & Wassabe but he wasn't biting............ :uhyeah:



No way, I still won't eat that stuff.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 12, 2004)

Diet schmiet...

1 word folks...

LYPOSUCTION 
artyon:


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## TigerWoman (Jun 13, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Diet schmiet...
> 
> 1 word folks...
> 
> ...



One word OUCH!  Have you ever seen them do liposuction on TV makeovers?  Reallly GROSS, they just take this wand thing, push it all around like they are hoeing a garden.  Rather eat salads and veggies for a month. Rather workout for 3 hrs. a day too.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jun 14, 2004)

I thought Diet Coke WAS "low carb".  

What gives with that?

Wouldn't it be cheaper for them to simply market what they have with "Carbs.  Never had 'em.  Never will."



Regards,


Steve


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## Cryozombie (Jun 14, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I thought Diet Coke WAS "low carb".
> 
> What gives with that?
> 
> ...



Cheaper? Yeah.  More Profitable?  People are STUPID with a capital Stoop!


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## BlueDragon1981 (Jun 15, 2004)

I think that the low carb craze is bull.

 Carbs are essential to may of your bodies functions. If you want to lose weight, eat healthy, eat less (smaller portions than you usually do), keep a regular diet (meaning don't change your eating habits to drastically), and EXERCIZE. To many people are lazy and expect the pounds to come off without lifting a finger.

 Its all crap if you ask me. (I know about the atkins crap, I work at Subway)


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## TigerWoman (Jun 15, 2004)

This is not really a craze.  Atkins (although I think they have way too much meat/bad fats) has proven results in alot of people.  They ARE exercising more than they did before, at least the people I have talked to personally.

And after a lifetime of trying to lose weight with fad/craze diets going from the cabbage soup diet in my twenties to trying to just "eat healthy with smaller portions" and exercise, SouthBeach Diet worked for me and my husband.

And now we have a new lifestyle of eating right.  Yes, we eat carbs.  Vegetables 2-3 times a day, are the best--complex carbs.  We eat "starchy" and sweet carbs sparingly. Lean meat, fruit,nuts, cheeses.  So whats not healthy?  We are feeling the best we have in our entire lives. Get a book, read it and then judge.  I've probably gotten at least a dozen people on it and they are losing and doing well too. Gotta be something to it, its working for a huge amount of people.


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## jeffbeish (Jun 15, 2004)

Atkins Diet is not or everyone. It worked great for me and after losing 65 pounds in a year or so my blood test came back great.  A moderate reduction in carbs is helpfull for anyone.


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## BlueDragon1981 (Jun 15, 2004)

I have read info on the low carb diet and atkins things but I still think that exercise and eating healthy are the best ways to go.

 Another thing is many people on the low carb diet don't understand that they have to exercise for it to have good results. Some expect to cut carbs and be able to sit in front of the t.v and lose weight. The american society is lazy when it comes to exercise. I myself don't exercise as much as I would like to. Life gets in the way sometimes, but I can't blame it on TV because I haven't sat down and watched a tv show (other than screensavers and call for help on tech tv, and I only catch that like once a week) in a long time. I'm not saying any of you do this but it does happen a lot. One thing I do believe in is that each person is different and the chemicals and all the other things going on in their body is what makes thing go the way they do. Some people could cut all the carbs and not lose wieght and others can eat all they want and not gain. It is the persons reaction to food that should dictate someones diet. Find out what works for you and if it is the Atkins, Low carb thing go for it...just exercise along with the diet because it is much better for you in the long run.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 16, 2004)

BlueDragon, you are definitely right about the exercise.  Exercise should be a part of life.  Eat, sleep, work, exercise.  But to a lot of people its too much work after a day of work usually. They don't realize this KIND of work is refreshing, re-energizing.  I come home at night after a late class of TKD and I'm pumped to do something else.  And exercise is very addicting.  Your body knows what it wants and needs.  I get jumpy, too full of energy if I go more than two days without exercise.  

So, yeah, the low carb way of eating can lose weight until you get to a maintenance level. And exercise added on to that especially in MA, you can lose at least a pound a week, 3600 calories, maybe two from exercise alone.  

I don't advise alot of exercise in the second week of South Beach though, because the body is pulling needed energy from the deficit in calories from fat out and this process is more difficult than from consumed carbos.  I was feeling a little weird, not quite dizzy, not quite tired, just seemed a little swimmy but I was doing my regular schedule of TKD too and it all wasn't working.

The next week, when I was consuming more carbs, I felt better and it evened out but I was still on the losing weight part of the diet. Now we are on maintenance, but we go off it for a day a little,  then back on for most of the week. It works.


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## loki09789 (Jun 16, 2004)

jeffbeish said:
			
		

> Atkins Diet is not or everyone. It worked great for me and after losing 65 pounds in a year or so my blood test came back great. A moderate reduction in carbs is helpfull for anyone.


If you look at the majority of our fast food/snack food choices, of course a diet habit like Atkins/South Beach is going to provide results.  I notice that most of the results crowd on these low/no carb diets are generally older than teens/twenties.  Most of us around the thirties and up still suffer from the "eat anything and get away with it" habits, but don't have to metabolism that let's it happen without a price.

Statistically, US diets are awefully lean on veggies and good stuff anyway.  Take out starchies and replace that with more veggies and good food choices (less processed, more whole food) and it is very reasonable to expect a healthier self.

I love my pasta, potatoes, cereals and breads.  I notice that as long as I conciously 'strive for five' as they say in the grocery stores and keep exercising regularly, I do fine.


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## jeffbeish (Jun 16, 2004)

When I was growing up the nation was composed of a large population of farmers, who by today's standards ate all the wrong food.  No matter what age they were they ate food that would kill todays teenagers before they reached 20.  The difference is, those people worked it off with hard work.  Todays younger people would die before reaching 20 if they had to do 10% of the work those farmers did.  Of course, for some odd reason we live much longer today.  There are many reasons for this, will not venture into it, but you may be right about the age thing and the Atkins diet.  I suspect that the true life span is now being artificially extended by the pill industry.  IMHO, humans were designed to last only 40 years anyway.  But, we still kill each other in crowded cites and smoke dope, so it all evens out.

My wife's blood tests is awful on the Atkin's but mine is better. It's all in the genes.  Funny, she bought a new pair of pants at K-Mart that was tagged size 14 but they were actually size 10.  She almost went on a diet!


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## loki09789 (Jun 16, 2004)

jeffbeish said:
			
		

> When I was growing up the nation was composed of a large population of farmers, who by today's standards ate all the wrong food. No matter what age they were they ate food that would kill todays teenagers before they reached 20. The difference is, those people worked it off with hard work. Todays younger people would die before reaching 20 if they had to do 10% of the work those farmers did. Of course, for some odd reason we live much longer today. There are many reasons for this, will not venture into it, but you may be right about the age thing and the Atkins diet. I suspect that the true life span is now being artificially extended by the pill industry. IMHO, humans were designed to last only 40 years anyway. But, we still kill each other in crowded cites and smoke dope, so it all evens out.
> 
> My wife's blood tests is awful on the Atkin's but mine is better. It's all in the genes. Funny, she bought a new pair of pants at K-Mart that was tagged size 14 but they were actually size 10. She almost went on a diet!


Funny you should mention the 'good old days' type of info.  I remember watching documentaries about food through the ages.  One of the staple foods of most agrarian civilizations is grain based (breads, poridge, grits, meals...) from the greeks and earlier all the way up to the civil war.  

There are stories of the Lewis and Clark expedition making an entire meal of pan fried flour, river water and lard.....YUM!  not the greatest, but better than nothing.  The difference through time is really the processing.  Earlier grain based flours were loaded with nutrients (unfortunately the breads and such went bad faster) where now, even the 'wheat' bread people get as a healthier choice is a pale comparison.

The Atkins diet/high protein diets are only possible in our age of convenience.  It might end up being a good thing for some, but history supports that there are other ways.

Water intake and exercise/manual labor are the two areas that I notice most youth are lacking in (not that I was the hardest working puberty pig in my day either).  Even at the end of my service years, there was an obvious difference in how 'active' the incoming troops were.


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## Seig (Jun 16, 2004)

When I was a young teenager, meaning to young to get a real job, I worked on a farm. Breakfast was at 5:30, after morning chores.  Breakfast usually was eggs, ham, bacon, sausage, biscuits, gravy, flapjacks, and grits. At 6:30 we headed back to the fields until 11:30 when lunch was served. Lunch was usually pork chops, or steak, or chicken, roasted potatoes, corn on the cob, green beans, greens (either spinach or collards). We generally took a nap from about 1:00 to 2:00. At 2:00, we went back to the fields until about 6:00, then we ate supper at 6:30. Supper was usually sandwhiches or something else light, like Tuna Salad served in a chilled tomatoe. I ate more food those summers than I have ever eaten since. I grew four inches and lost 32 pounds. ( I started at 12 and worked there til I was 14.)


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## TigerWoman (Jun 17, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> When I was a young teenager, meaning to young to get a real job, I worked on a farm. Breakfast was at 5:30, after morning chores.  Breakfast usually was eggs, ham, bacon, sausage, biscuits, gravy, flapjacks, and grits. At 6:30 we headed back to the fields until 11:30 when lunch was served. Lunch was usually pork chops, or steak, or chicken, roasted potatoes, corn on the cob, green beans, greens (either spinach or collards). We generally took a nap from about 1:00 to 2:00. At 2:00, we went back to the fields until about 6:00, then we ate supper at 6:30. Supper was usually sandwhiches or something else light, like Tuna Salad served in a chilled tomatoe. I ate more food those summers than I have ever eaten since. I grew four inches and lost 32 pounds. ( I started at 12 and worked there til I was 14.)



I think I should get my son to go work on a farm.  He's eating a ton of food, doesn't go to TKD but is a BB, but does paintball weekly and computer and TV. He's getting very tall and still stays slim but not skinny.  This has got to be about metabolism. He's not eating as much as you did but four average meals plus snacks a couple times a day. 

You probably had a high metabolism too. You ate alot but worked really hard to burn it off. And you ate mostly meat, biscuits/flapjacks-carbs, potatoes-carb heavy, corn-carbs, bread, but not that many carbs really considering your work.  

That light supper was pretty healthy. It wouldn't have gone to fat like a heavy meal would in the evening. So I think you worked harder than the carbs you ate, so you lost weight.  Plus you probably gained muscle and lost some fat in the process. Had to use that protein, you were in your growing period.


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## jeffbeish (Jun 17, 2004)

Igrew up eating breakfast of 3 eggs, over easy, grits, ham with red-eye gravy over everything!!!  Wow, talk about carbs!!!

As a young Judo competitor we would load up on carbs early as we would get up no later that 5:00 and run, swim, weights, etc., then hit the mat.  As we entered each match each of us had a bag of lemons and a jar of honey and would suck a whole lemon driy then a big helping of honey.  Talk about added strength!  

But, we worked it all off before bedtime and back then there was no fat on our bodies.  Too bad youth is wasted on the young   Not sure and not qualified to say but men & women were not desgined to last more than 40 or so years.  Just think about how we older folk would fit in with the hunter-gathers!     The tribe would most certainly leave us to the wolves.


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## SmellyMonkey (Jun 17, 2004)

Men out there- read the Testosterone Advantage Plan. Main point of that book is to increase muscle mass to raise your resting metabolic rate. 

I see a few posts about needing to "work off the extra carbs". I think the posters believe one actually needs to burn calories via hard work (running, biking, farm work). Well, next time pay attention to the calorie counter on the treadmill when you workout. Typically you may burn a few hundred calories from a good workout. But you eat a few thousand calories a day. You burn most calories you consume just to keep your body working and your muscle tissue alive. 

Most farm workers I know have quite a bit of muscle due to hard work. It is this extra muscle mass PLUS the hard physical work that keeps their calorie needs high. Seig was also growing, so his calorie needs must have been extremely high.

Anyway, any diet will work if you eat less calories then you burn. Doesn't matter if it is low carb, high carb, low fat, high fat. If you eat 2,200 calories but burn 2,400 calories, you will lose fat. Simple math.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jun 17, 2004)

Seig's post about all the great chow they eat on farms brings out a good point...activity will burn that stuff off.

The problem we face is that we still eat all that...in fact we market it.  Andy Griffiths goes after the older crowd with his Bob Evan's restaurant commercials.  "MMmmm GOOD!" Down home country cookin' just like Momma used to make.  It breaks my heart to see older people sitting in restaurants like that, sucking down the biscuits and gravy...and they HAVE to be on Lipitor and beta-blockers.

The notion of dietary discipline is easy for most of us on this forum.  We're athletes.  We work on mastery of our bodies and passions.  Turning away from the table isn't as difficult for us.  I submit this isn't natural, though.

Our natural inclination is to eat when food is available.  This is normal.  We've evolved that way.  The problem is that our species...for the first time in its history...has gotten to a point where food is plentiful and cheap.  Even the poor in "Third World" nations are facing obesity issues.

Yesterday I went to "The Surgery Center" for outpatient ACL reconstruction.  An eight year old was there to get his tonsils out.  He was fat.  His mother was fat.  His father...not even thirty...had no teeth.  The boy was standing at the junk food machines smacking his lips...as was his mother and dad.  Point here:  Education level corresponds with obesity.  The kid was contemplating eating that stuff for BREAKFAST.  I believe his parents would have allowed him to, had he not had to fast prior to surgery.*

Back in the day the poor and uneducated were lean, and the rich were fat.  The opposite occurs today.  The rich can afford fruit, vegetables, and memberhips at health clubs.  They also have an education and know that eating Snickers for breakfast is perhaps not the wisest thing to do.

Time for a Percocet...


Steve

*This family didn't seem the type to have a health plan.  I have no idea how they were paying for the tonsil surgery.  Medicare?


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## loki09789 (Jun 17, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> Men out there- read the Testosterone Advantage Plan. Main point of that book is to increase muscle mass to raise your resting metabolic rate.
> 
> I see a few posts about needing to "work off the extra carbs". I think the posters believe one actually needs to burn calories via hard work (running, biking, farm work). Well, next time pay attention to the calorie counter on the treadmill when you workout. Typically you may burn a few hundred calories from a good workout. But you eat a few thousand calories a day. You burn most calories you consume just to keep your body working and your muscle tissue alive.
> 
> ...


It isn't just the wt. lose issue that the calorie burn of labor/exercise benefits but the metabolism (which I think you are hinting at) shift, and the healthier body from the work.  If I sat on my couch, at 1800-2000 calories of healthy food and did minimal to no work, I would be at as much risk of complications and problems as the guy who runs marathons and lives on snicker's bars.  Wt. loss is only one dietary/healthful lifestyle goal.  If you are looking to balance anabolic and catabolic stasis because you are at a good wt. then the caloric intake is going to be recalculated (for most of us it is more like "gee, I am gaining wt. again/don't feel as good so I better back off on food or increase the exercise") for that goal.

Some dietary/lifestyle goals are improved athletic performance, wt. gain, muscle gain, improved spinal support/PT rehabilitation.... all of which have specific combinations of diet, rest, exercise and mental focus issues.

The one thing about all this diet/health stuff is mental outlook as well.  I am not a fan of bashing overwt. people but I also don't think it is healthy to lie about the health issues and say "gee, you are fine just the way you are".   Not judging people's character based on their wt. ('fat slob', 'doesn't have any respect for him/herself...") is what I go for.  See lots of people making the effort and seeking to improve themselves - taking charge is probably the healthiest act/mentallity you can have regardless of low/no/high protein diet or exercise choice.


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## JPR (Jun 17, 2004)

Not only is food plentiful, cheap, and easy to obtain but we have processed it to where it is so calorically dense that it is easy to over eat and have a high daily calorie count.  Try taking in 2000 calories a day just eating fresh vegetables.  You would have to eat a large volume of food to do it.  For instance one head of lettuce has 20 calories, one cup of mixed vegetables has 105, one twinkie has 160, 10 potato chips have 105.  A head of lettuce or a cup of vegetables is very filling, but I can easily eat 2 to 4 twinkies with out thinking.  Oh yes and who ever eats just 10 potato chips?

So eating this processed food makes it easy to take in well over 2000 calories per day.

Oh, one other interesting fact, you have to run a calorie deficit of 3500 calories to loose one pound of fat.  Once you put on the fat it is terribly hard to get off.

JPR


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## hardheadjarhead (Jun 17, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The one thing about all this diet/health stuff is mental outlook as well.  I am not a fan of bashing overwt. people but I also don't think it is healthy to lie about the health issues and say "gee, you are fine just the way you are".   Not judging people's character based on their wt. ('fat slob', 'doesn't have any respect for him/herself...") is what I go for.  See lots of people making the effort and seeking to improve themselves - taking charge is probably the healthiest act/mentallity you can have regardless of low/no/high protein diet or exercise choice.



Quite correct.  There should be no stigma, but we should emphasize that the weight gain is natural, but is unhealthy.  They can then make the choices they need to make based upon the education they've been given.

The stigma of being fat...insofar as appearance goes...is disappearing.  Kids in our culture are getting so fat, in such large numbers, that eventually fit children might be the minority.  My wife and I see girls and young women wearing bare midriff tops and low slung shorts...and they reeeeeeeally don't need to.  Nobody seems to care.  The paradigm of what is "attractive" seems to be changing.  We're turning into a nation of chubby chasers.

In Denmark the people are so much leaner.  

Geez I love that country.


Regards,


Steve


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## TigerWoman (Jun 17, 2004)

jeffbeish said:
			
		

> Not sure and not qualified to say but men & women were not desgined to last more than 40 or so years.  Just think about how we older folk would fit in with the hunter-gathers!     The tribe would most certainly leave us to the wolves.



I keep thinking about my mom, now 86. An example of eating everything wrong. I don't know how much roast, potatoes and carrots-stew we ate but it was alot. Never ate fish until I lived by myself. Ate tons of fried chicken/game. She ate butter, icecream, made alot of cookies, cakes, pies, sweet rolls, breads etc.  Typical German. She NEVER walked let alone exercised. Well she was overweight all her life and I KNEW I would never go down that road. So I've exercised like a fiend all my life, in fear.  I used to look at people who popped vitamins and say what for. Now I pop vitamiins, Juice-Plus, calcium, E, Glucosamine, MSM.  I read and got wiser.  But then there's my mom.  Diabetic, overweight still, pacemaker in, still toodling along, but now with a restricted diet the last couple of years.  Do I really want to live to be a 100.  I don't know about that one.  Doesn't seem so appealing now, may be later when I reach 80 I'll rethink that.  I recall at about 70 though she was giving everything away getting ready to go.  But I'm in great shape at 55 nearly, just may not have my own knees later at the rate I'm going. The aging process marches on and I have a feeling I will fight that all the way, at least for a good while yet. Yeah, why is it that when we are young we are not wise, and when we are finally wise, we are not young to use it.


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