# Rear Bear Hug Defense



## MJS (Dec 19, 2011)

On another forum, there is a discussion on a self defense technique against a rear bearhug from behind, arms free.  Although the technique in question is from Kenpo, I wanted to post it here, in the General section, so as to get feedback from everyone.  For reference sake, I'll post a written description as well as a video clip.

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> 1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug; yet leaves your arms free.
> 2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock into a horse stance as you execute right and left outward overhead elbow down onto your attacker's forearms.
> 3. Squat down onto your attacker's right knee. Bend over and with both hands, grab your attacker's ankle. Shift into a concave stance as you pulls up on your attacker's right ankle to force them to fall onto their back. Note: The pull and squat could break your attacker's knee due to the counterforce prior to the fall. In addition, the concave stance is used to protect yourself from pulling your attacker's leg into your groin.
> 4. Twist your attacker's right ankle clockwise as you have your right leg circle clockwise (preferably striking them in the face if possible) landing to 7:30 into a right reverse close kneel stance.
> ...



On the other forum, there of course, are mixed thoughts, with some Kenpoists saying that in a street scenario, they'd never do this, while some of the Kenpo die hards, say that its not that the technique itself is bad, just that there're bad teachers, and unless you're learning it under someone who really knows how to do it, of course, it'll appear to be a poor technique.


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## wildcat91 (Dec 19, 2011)

Certainly depends on the size of the attacker.  I always think in Self defence you should go over plan A, Plan B and Plan C.  

Plan B migh be the sprawl forward with a kick to the groin.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 19, 2011)

It has Weaknesses.

Good Concept, I will certainly tweak it around a bit and make something to slot away in My Tertiary Memory Banks.
Poor Execution.
1: Its too unlikely someone would Grab You under Your Arms. But hey, Ill roll with that.
2: The Attacker Steps into a Long Stance, which is what makes this Possible. Were He in a Shorter Stance, it would be less effectual, by far. Find Me someone who will step into a Long Front Stance and Bearhug You under the Arms and Ill be Impressed. Kinda.
3: He assumes He will react immediately. There is a moment of Hesitation when an Engagement commences if You do not see it coming. But, ASSUMING this worked immediately, even with the delay itd be fine.
4: This is the big one. If someone does this, its because either A: Theyre BIG, or B: They have a buddy or so waiting to Hit You from the Front, and so spending time Takedowning the Grabber is wasteful, and self-condemning. Particularly since Your Whole Body is Immobilised doing the Takedown.
5: He assumes the Attacker wont pull back, taking them both to the ground. Then back to Issue 4. Becuase either A: Hell just pull You into His Mass, and Compress You. Or B: Youll get a few Kicks/Bashes from a Weapon/A Guy mounting You.


Thoughts?


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2011)

Sink your weight down as you stamp on his foot .
The end.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 19, 2011)

Arms free? He's about stupid to do that to anyone. T-stance, elbow to the gut.  Backfist to face, turn and attack, knock down, stomp the groin.  Restomp the groin.  Drive over him with your car as you leave. Come back and restomp the groin.


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## MJS (Dec 19, 2011)

wildcat91 said:


> Certainly depends on the size of the attacker.  I always think in Self defence you should go over plan A, Plan B and Plan C.
> 
> Plan B migh be the sprawl forward with a kick to the groin.



Definately agree with the size of the other guy.  Some of the concerns from at least 1 other guy, was that against a grappler, this tech. probably isn't the wisest one out there.  To be honest, I agree with that...lol.


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## MJS (Dec 19, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> It has Weaknesses.
> 
> Good Concept, I will certainly tweak it around a bit and make something to slot away in My Tertiary Memory Banks.
> Poor Execution.
> ...



All valid points.  Of course keep in mind, were some of the 'die hards' to hear this, they'd be defending this move 'til they're blue in the face...lol.  But thats why I posted this here...to get the feedback from others.  As a Kenpoist myself, I'm one of those that often questions many things.  Sorry, but some stuff just doesnt make sense...lol.  As for your reply:

1) Agree.  One would assume an over the arm grab would be the #1 choice to limit what the victim can do, but may as well be ready for anything.

2) Agree

3) IMO, I think dealing with what I'll call the 'initial attack' is important.  What I'm talking about is what happens right after the grab....the push forward, the pull back, the lift, etc.  Were this guy pushed, he probably isnt going to be in the best position for the rest of the move.

4) Yup. 

5) Yup, yup, yup!!!   I can't help but think back to some of the UFCs with Dan Severn, and Mark Kerr and Coleman.  Severn did more suplexes than I can count...lol.  Yes, I know, not everyone we face is going to be a highly trained killer, but wrestling is taught in many highschools/colleges, in addition to MMA being very popular.


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## MJS (Dec 19, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Sink your weight down as you stamp on his foot .
> The end.



Amen!! K.I.S.S.....thats what its all about.


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## MJS (Dec 19, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Arms free? He's about stupid to do that to anyone. T-stance, elbow to the gut.  Backfist to face, turn and attack, knock down, stomp the groin.  Restomp the groin.  Drive over him with your car as you leave. Come back and restomp the groin.



Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!!!  While its not the same thing, well, here ya go. 

[yt]yhtoxUzqNmQ&feature=relmfu[/yt]


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 19, 2011)

MJS said:


> Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!!!  While its not the same thing, well, here ya go.
> 
> [yt]yhtoxUzqNmQ&feature=relmfu[/yt]



Yep, same thing.  I was joking around, but in our dojo, we practice several techniques for dealing with rear bear hug.  One is as described by the O/P, reach under and grab attacker's leg.  One is stomp the foot, also described above. One is the _higi no ato tsuki _elbow strike I described.  Another is the 'dusting off the hips' that I saw in the Krav Maga video you posted.  There are lots of options.  Basically, anyone grabbing you in a bear hug is beyond stupid.  It's like the worst thing ever.  Even when I was in high school, I remember seeing a guy grab someone like that in the hallway.  The guy who got grabbed immediately dropped his center of gravity and ran backwards into the nearest wall.  Then he did it again.  The attacker was going 'oof, oof' with every hit.  Then the victim jerked his head back into the attacker's nose, turning it to mush.  By this time, the attacker had let go and was laying on the hallway floor, crying and bleeding.  Victim walked away.  He forgot to stomp the groin before he left, though.


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2011)

MJS said:


> Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!!!  While its not the same thing, well, here ya go.
> 
> [yt]yhtoxUzqNmQ&feature=relmfu[/yt]



With one like that , we would stamp on the foot , pivot and then do a back elbow strike into the solar plexus or gut.
Sometimes just the pivot alone will be enough to off balance the attacker.
We will not bend over though like in the video , we try to keep the back straight so that we can pivot on our axis and get a good sharp rotation of the whole body.


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## MPC1257 (Dec 19, 2011)

Check the 1st minute or so to see another way to defense against rear bear hugs.


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2011)

Also with the arms free bear hug sometimes the attacker doesn't use proper grips and you can manage to peel a finger off of his grip and bend the crap out of it .


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 19, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Also with the arms free bear hug sometimes the attacker doesn't use proper grips and you can manage to peel a finger off of his grip and bend the crap out of it .



Yup, way back in my jujutsu days that would be a great way to get a couple of broken pink fingers...or any other available finger for that matter.


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## rlobrecht (Dec 20, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Arms free? He's about stupid to do that to anyone. T-stance, elbow to the gut.  Backfist to face, turn and attack, knock down, stomp the groin.  Restomp the groin.  Drive over him with your car as you leave. Come back and restomp the groin.



Master Ken would be very proud.

Of course I agree completely.  

We teach a similar technique as in the video, except with arms pinned.  Drop into a low stance (we call it a sitting stance.)  Grab one or both legs, depending on the stance of the attacker and pull up.  You might need to throw your weight back, so you fall on the attacker, and he cracks his head on the ground. 

Rick


Rick


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## DarkShadowfax (Dec 20, 2011)

Seems like it works. If the attacker intends to move on to another move (double nelson, perhaps) however :/ I don't know.
Coming from a Krav Maga background, I'd lower my weight and pin the arms to my side to prevent the attacker from lifting me/moving his arms for a double nelson.
Few backward elbow strikes, another whack to the groin and if the attacker still holds on, break a finger or two.


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## punisher73 (Dec 20, 2011)

Too many people practice bear hugs from a static position and don't understand the attack as it would happen in real life.  Someone isn't just going to hug you from behind, and I agree if someone does they are stupid.  Also, if this is a two on one situation where the guy behind is just attempting to hold you for the frontal assault, you wouldn't want to do this counter either.  
During my time in the jail, I would see this type attack all the time.  A person would come up behind someone with a good amount of momentum as they grabbed driving the person forward and many times bending them at their waist.  After the grab they would pick up the person and then slam them on the ground.  I think of this counter as that type of attack.  You get hit and go forward and their weight and momentum bend you at the waist also, to counter you bend down to prevent being picked up and then do the takedown.  If you can't deal with that initial body hit and loss of balance the other options aren't going to work. When you start thinking about this attack as a skilled grappler and not clueless Joe who is just going to hold you, but is getting ready to take you down or slam you it gives you more options to deal with it.  Is it ideal?  Probably not, but if you find yourself in that position and bent forward, you better have a tool in the toolbox to fix it.

This takedown is also taught in Gracie JJ and BJJ and several other grappling arts (including the Marines in their MCMAP training).  Here is a video from the grappling perspective, notice the hands slapping the ground to counter any possible pick up attempts.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2011)

*Okay, when someone does a bear hug what do they want to do?
*
Almost always they will want to* lift you up and slam your *** down*. (except if it is a friend just trying to control you)
That is the big issue with the defense here is that the attacker because of the leg going so far forward is not trying to
lift and slam.  Hence why the leg is so far forward which allows for the attack to work.  
*The attackers attack because of that is fairly unrealistic!*

What is very important when being bear hugged whether arms in or out is that you establish a *solid base and sink your weight down* so that you are more
difficult to be thrown or taken down.  Notice in these BJJ video clips how a solid base is established.

Arms out





Arms in





From the front arms in





*Establishing your base is essential*.  Numero uno whether a rear or front bear hug.  With no base you are going for a ride!


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## Buka (Dec 20, 2011)

Great input to this thread.
Bear hugs are a funny thing. I find them to be defended in more different ways than most other attacks. I think maybe the size, and, more importantly, the attitude, of the attacker has a lot to do with it. As well as the size, strength, attitude and agility of the defender.

But I like the ones Punisher posted. I like slapping the ground and scrambling for the foot, because I'm agile in a low position. And I love the MCMAP method of dealing with the hold, but practicing it over and over makes for a really long day.

Some ways that don't work well for me work great against me. I know that's probably true for any technique/attack, it just seems more to me in bear hugs.


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## thegatekeeper (Dec 24, 2011)

if your hands are free, isn't it more effective to rear elbow him in the face? or rear headbutt?


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## Cyriacus (Dec 24, 2011)

thegatekeeper said:


> if your hands are free, isn't it more effective to rear elbow him in the face? or rear headbutt?


Good luck getting much power in it, though. Or specifically, enough to be effective. Plus, He isnt just going to stand there.


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## Zoran (Dec 24, 2011)

Good thread.

Part of the preparation for 3rd black in our school is dealing with non-compliant attacks such as rear bear hug. Since the attacker tends to decide what to do, it becomes a real bear to deal with (pun intended). This can be anything from a being lifted and slammed or more of a forward momentum tackling type attack. Often the attacker removes all possibility of being able to perform one of the more traditional techs one knows. 



punisher73 said:


> During my time in the jail, I would see this type attack all the time.  A person would come up behind someone with a good amount of momentum as they grabbed driving the person forward and many times bending them at their waist.  After the grab they would pick up the person and then slam them on the ground.



Something like this happened to me during the test and practice. Since it's spontaneous, you often come up with unconventional solutions. 

1. During the test. the attacker had me bent forward arms pinned. I ended up continuing the momentum and sort of did a dive roll. The attacker, still attached, went for a ride and took the brunt of the fall with my weight added to it. From there it became a ground game.

2. During practice, the attacker grabbed me arms pinned with his forward momentum driving me forward. Intent was to slam me into the wall _(wall has a matt hanging from it)_. After a few involuntary steps forward I stepped off the line and spun the attacker which made him instinctively loosen his grip. The centrifugal force of that circle separated us from there. Since most bear hugs has a momentum, this tech works in a variety scenarios and can be used to slam the attacker into objects or people. As usually with any tech, it has counters.


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## MJS (Dec 28, 2011)

IMO, I really don't like to use the "Well this art is doing it" example.  Just because the Gracies, the Military or LEOs are doing it, doesnt mean its the best thing since sliced bread.  The self defense that I learned in the Corrections academy wasn't the greatest, and honestly, doing some of that stuff just may get you seriously hurt or worse.  I was thankful I had a plan b.   But I suppose, just like anything, there is good and bad.  This was simply one example.  I don't think its the end all, be all of answers.  As for the elbows...well, here is a clip showing them.  This clip also shows a few things similar to what I posted.  

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I think one of the major differences IMO, is the use of strikes prior to going for the leg.  ie: give the guy something else to think about prior to going for the leg, may prove greater success.


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## jasonbrinn (Dec 29, 2011)

#1 - "real self defense" is so dynamic it is hard, I feel practically impossible, to give a yes/no answer on techniques.  

I have seen things that should NOT work save people's lives and things that ALWAYS work get people hurt.  IMO the only thing we can do is to follow basic logic, physics and work the numbers.

Statistically over a 30+ year training career and 15+ teaching I have NEVER seen the original defense shown by the OP work.  Funny enough it is the one I was taught and then taught myself for quite some time.  I spent all the time I taught it at my school "correcting" people who couldn't get it to work.  Ultimately I got honest and followed the numbers to find that this was simply a "demo/static" technique.  Its not that it can't or won't work in "real" life but it probably won't most of the time.

So, since it was not a statistical win I dumped the technique and started searching for the highest statistically pleasing alternative.  I found that when one finds themselves in this strange situation the following technique will work almost ALL of the time;

1.  Choose a side
2.  Wrap your arm around the elbow of the attackers arm on that side trapping it.
3.  Kneel down with the knee of the side that has the arm trapped.

This technique will cause the attacker to fall.  

With this said, it probably won't work!


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## Cyriacus (Dec 29, 2011)

Personally, I find it works kinda well to just go crazy with Back-Elbows and Low Kicks, whilst trying to drag them around.


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## MJS (Dec 30, 2011)

jasonbrinn said:


> #1 - "real self defense" is so dynamic it is hard, I feel practically impossible, to give a yes/no answer on techniques.
> 
> I have seen things that should NOT work save people's lives and things that ALWAYS work get people hurt. IMO the only thing we can do is to follow basic logic, physics and work the numbers.
> 
> ...



Well, I agree.  I've said pretty much the same thing regarding the techniques...that they're simply a foundation to build from.  They give 1 possible idea, and then its up to each person to figure things out from there, using the arts principles, ideas and concepts, so you can form your own response, according to whats happening at that moment.

Of course, were some of my fellow Kenpoists to hear what you said, they'd probably be upset with you...LOL.  In other words...how dare you say that something wont work...shame on you! LMAO!  All kidding aside...I'd always tell the people I train just what I said in this post...."Heres a tech for a defence against a bearhug.  This is how it goes.  Ok, train it.  Good, now lets look at what can go wrong, what else the badguy can do."  And we go from there.  I mean, really...we could spend weeks, if not longer, working 1 tech. and building off of it.  IMO, THAT is how someone is really going to learn.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 30, 2011)

If the attacker doesn't lift you the move probably will at least take the guy down but i'm thinking it would be hard to bend with a strong person holding you let alone lifting.  

When it comes to bearhugs, i have to say i believe what i learned in the dojo that if someone bearhugs you, it's already too late. You have to train to develop bearhug sensors and the instant the arms come around you step forward violently pushing your pelvis out and pushing with arms.. works-gotta be a really sudden move, because if a really big guy get you in his clutches and lifts, pretty much no move will work with high percentage.  I'm really thankfull to have learned that. Been bearhuged plenty myself. The thing about it is one tends to underestimate the danger and that's what makes it so effective. Once bearhugged, you're probably going to get a)crushed b)thrown down to the ground or c)both;after being lifted somewhat. 
  So best bet is to NOT let someone get a grip at all and if they do then not a good one. Even though i have often gone arial when being throw, one time i was like ''up up and away...' and the guy(quite real sit)grabs me in midair changes course and brutaly smashes me into the ground with no time for midair reversal...  don't underestimate being grabed and the speed of any shooter that lunges.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 3, 2012)

kaizasosei said:


> ...
> 
> You have to train to develop bearhug sensors and *the instant the arms come around you* step forward violently *pushing your pelvis out *and pushing with arms.. works-gotta be a really sudden move, because if a really big guy get you in his clutches and lifts, pretty much no move will work with high percentage.
> ...



Thanks!  This is one thing that no one has mentioned, or I just missed it.  

Any time, the most effective responses are the quicker ones.  *The use of the pelvis*, assuming yours and the assailant's heights are close enough, can be a big surprise to the assailant; groin or stomach/air can suffer.  Even if not, it can create some separation and diversion, allowing this technique to work better.  There is no certainty of any attack from the rear being defended against easily, but there are things that can be done to help get yourself out of the situation.  Anything that helps is worth learning.

As to all the comments about how an attacker would be stupid to go under your arms, in a perfect assailant world, that is true.  However, your arms may not be at your side if you are defending against an attacker already to your front.  So expect to have your arms pinned and learn defenses for that, but if they aren't, learn some for that too.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 25, 2012)

kind of thing that gives martial arts a bad name IMO. Nice of the assailant to grab obligingly around the waist so that the defender can bend forward unhindered, very kind of him not to pin the arms either.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 25, 2012)

Under arm bear hugs do happen.  It's happened to me, and anyone who's seen the 'Helpless Asian Man Attacked' video in the last week will recall that it happens to him at least twice during his ordeal.  In a multiple unskilled attacker scenario, it's one of the most likely forms of takedown, because they hugger can creep up on the huggee while he is occupied with someone else.  The question is, in a multiple attacker scenario, would you want to be bending forward to reach through your legs?  I would not.  I'd go for the elbow strikes and palm to the groin.  At least from these you can try to bounce into a forward punch to keep the other assailant occupied.  Why occupy both hands and your eyes with the leg lift...although it works OK 1 on 1.


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## MPC1257 (Jan 26, 2012)

I've learned to prevent being picked up during a bear hug by hooking the assailants leg with my leg either an "inner" or "outer" lock, but I prefer the inner lock.  This also makes it difficult for them to throw you to the ground.  I'm not saying it's foolproof but it does help.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 26, 2012)

MPC1257 said:


> I've learned to prevent being picked up during a bear hug by hooking the assailants leg with my leg either an "inner" or "outer" lock, but I prefer the inner lock.  This also makes it difficult for them to throw you to the ground.  I'm not saying it's foolproof but it does help.


Aye - But can You do that instantaneously when Youre not doing it in a drill which You are aware of, as oppose to, say, someone grabbing You out of nowere from behind whilst another man comes at You from the front?


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## MPC1257 (Jan 26, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Aye - But can You do that instantaneously when Youre not doing it in a drill which You are aware of, as oppose to, say, someone grabbing You out of nowere from behind whilst another man comes at You from the front?



All I can do is train and hope that I can in a real situation.  We do sneak up on people in our classes and try different headlocks, bearhugs, etc.  Sometimes I react ok, sometimes I don't.  Does anyone know how they will react in a given situation?


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## Cyriacus (Jan 26, 2012)

MPC1257 said:


> All I can do is train and hope that I can in a real situation.  We do sneak up on people in our classes and try different headlocks, bearhugs, etc.  Sometimes I react ok, sometimes I don't.  Does anyone know how they will react in a given situation?


Thats the point - You dont. Im not questioning Your methods, but it helps to avoid thinking that 'You know what You would do", or rather, "_I've learned to prevent being picked up__" _ Thats all, Good Sir


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## MPC1257 (Jan 27, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Thats the point - You dont. Im not questioning Your methods, but it helps to avoid thinking that 'You know what You would do", or rather, "_I've learned to prevent being picked up__" _Thats all, Good Sir



I understand completely, our instructor is always saying that what we learn is a tool that does not guanantee success. He just hopes that we are able to apply some of what we learn to improve our odds. The best defense in my mind is to avoid situations were you need to use what you've learned. Easier said than done for some people. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 27, 2012)

MPC1257 said:


> I understand completely, our instructor is always saying that what we learn is a tool that does not guanantee success.  He just hopes that we are able to apply some of what we learn to improve our odds.  The best defense in my mind is to avoid situations were you need to use what you.ve learned.  Easier said than done for some people.  I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post.


And I appreciate Your Constructive Conversation. Though of course, whilst avoidance is best, its not often possible.


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## geezer (Jan 27, 2012)

I've enjoyed reading this thread. One thing that is really clear is that there is no one solution to the range of attacks that could be called "bearhugs". In our system we use many of the counters discussed here. But ultimately, it is your attacker who dictates your counter. Is he tall, short, strong, or heavy? Does he move very fast and explosively? Is he doing a hard forward "tackle" type bearhug? ...a lift, twist, and slam? ...a double back heel drop that slams you down backwards? ...or what else? The only thing he won't likely do is grab you and just stand there.

Sometimes you have time to do a classic sequence like sinking your weight, trapping his hands, sidestepping and giving a rear elbow to the ribs, a low rear chop, palm or hammer fist to the groin, then break the hug (or drop out underneath) to escape or turn and counter attack. Sometimes you can even get in that rear shin/instep stomp (if you are not being tackled, lifted up, or slammed). Sometimes you start to get lifted up like _MPC 1257 _suggested, and can counter with that inside leg hook long enough to land a rear elbow and loosen his grip (_not_ my personal favorite). Sometimes there's enough time to go nuts with high flailing back elbows and rear headbutts like _TheGateKeeper_ suggested. But _often there isn't enough time_ before you get slammed down. Sometimes they hit you like a freight train and you've got to roll forward with their force, trapping their arms and taking them over the falls like _Zoran_ said back in post #22. About the only thing they probably won't do is stick their leg between yours and let you bend over and grab it like in the OP. But you never know. 

Like _Brian VanCise_ others have stated, You need to start by thinking about what tha attacker is trying to do. Assume they know what they are doing. Like others have said, my approach to training this would to consider all the ways _you_ would want to use a bearhug as an attack. Suit up in protective gear and at practice it hard, with the 'hugger" doing his best to win. Then vary the attack. It's like a flow drill. You have to deal with what you get and go with the flow. With mats and protective gear this type of training is a blast. As I train right now, out in the park, we have to tone it down a lot or this old geezer gets pretty beat up... Even when I "win". Of course it would be worse on the street, so no compaints here.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 27, 2012)

geezer said:


> I've enjoyed reading this thread. One thing that is really clear is that there is no one solution to the range of attacks that could be called "bearhugs". In our system we use many of the counters discussed here. But ultimately, it is your attacker who dictates your counter. Is he tall, short, strong, or heavy? Does he move very fast and explosively? Is he doing a hard forward "tackle" type bearhug? ...a lift, twist, and slam? ...a double back heel drop that slams you down backwards? ...or what else? The only thing he won't likely do is grab you and just stand there.
> 
> *And most importantly, since youre unable to see him, and youre not psychic, you wont even know any of that  Since youre also unlikely to be expecting it.*
> 
> ...



*nods


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 27, 2012)

I think a couple of people hit the nail on the head with a couple of the critiques posted. My primary issue is that he is just so nice about the bear hug. Well, to try and not overlap the existing posts, I will go from a couple of my experiences. If it is a huge friggin guy and his arms are under yours, expect to be airborne. I think back to my wrestling days and think, "you know what? This would be a perfect time for a SUPLEX!"... Ok, maybe that would be rare, but I could see it happening. If the guy for a over the arms, I think back to the first time I jumped (though this was 6th grade, admittedly), where the biggest of three guys slammed in to me from behind, bear hugged me, and ultimately pinned my arms behind my back while the two other guys proceeded to punch the crap out of me. Food for thought.


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## SavageMan (Jan 30, 2012)

Anyone interested in some classic reading on this one can check out Jiu Jitsu Complete. I believe it was originally published in the 50's. One of the learn MA at home books so popular back then. Actually covers this very subject. And if you have a teacher who can show you first hand, some of the techniques are legit. But the real joy of the book comes from the class A illustrations. Nothing like doing jiu jitsu in a business suit.:mst:


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## K-man (Jan 31, 2012)

Something I wonder about is the ability under adrenal dump to get hold of a finger. To me that constitutes a fine motor skill. When you are grabbed with intent to push or dump you may not even have the ability to drop and reach through your legs to grab his leg.  My preference is to use elbows until you can turn, then forearm strike to neck or head.


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