# Can we over come the Olympics



## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2008)

My question is a serious one, can TKD overcome what has happened thoughout the entire Olympics? What realistic changes can be done to help with judging and competition as the world looks at the sport as a failure? What do you believe the WTF or the Kukkiwon will do to make it  afair and equal playing field for all competitors?


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

At the risk of sounding "racist" I don't think that there is anything that the WTF or KKW can do without starting by cleaning their own houses of the corruption that seems so deeply engrained in the organization by virtue of being run by a culture that seems to embrace such corruption over a fair and level playing field for all.

This includes not just the Korean bodies though but all NGBs, including USAT and all the others.

There needs to be a serious house cleaning of everything involved in Olympic Taekwondo.


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2008)

mango.man said:


> At the risk of sounding "racist" I don't think that there is anything that the WTF or KKW can do without starting by cleaning their own houses of the corruption that seems so deeply engrained in the organization by virtue of being run by a culture that seems to embrace such corruption over a fair and level playing field for all.
> 
> This includes not just the Korean bodies though but all NGBs, including USAT and all the others.
> 
> There needs to be a serious house cleaning of everything involved in Olympic Taekwondo.


 
I completely agree with you, so how do we start this process and get it done.


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I completely agree with you, so how do we start this process and get it done.


 
At the risk of sounding "pessimistic" this problem is much bigger than you and I Terry.  Deeply rooted in decade after decade of corruption and politics.

USAT is holding several elections this year.  I suppose the best you or I could do to have some impact on change, would be to get our names on the ballot and get elected.  However I do not believe it is possible to really change anything.  Like most elected officials, they run for office promising change but when they actually get into office they realize it is virtually impossible to actually change anything.

A sad but true commentary on the state of Olympic Taekwondo.


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## Kwanjang (Aug 26, 2008)

mango.man said:


> At the risk of sounding "racist" I don't think that there is anything that the WTF or KKW can do without starting by cleaning their own houses of the corruption that seems so deeply engrained in the organization by virtue of being run by a culture that seems to embrace such corruption over a fair and level playing field for all.
> 
> This includes not just the Korean bodies though but all NGBs, including USAT and all the others.
> 
> There needs to be a serious house cleaning of everything involved in Olympic Taekwondo.


 
Well Said-


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## Windsinger (Aug 26, 2008)

mango.man said:


> However I do not believe it is possible to really change anything.  Like most elected officials, they run for office promising change but when they actually get into office they realize it is virtually impossible to actually change anything.


If I may, at the risk of sounding naive, is it not better to try to enact change and fail than to say, "Oh, well. Can't do anything, so we'll leave it be"?

I haven't been involved in TKD long enough to really know much about the workings at the upper levels, but the things I've heard (mainly here, which is populated with people whose opinions I've come to trust and respect), I can believe there's a lot of problems. I could easily see the attitude of "We're higher up in the organization than you, so we know better."

And to Terry and mango.man, I'd vote for you.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 26, 2008)

I dont think we SHOULD overcome it

Olympic style anything should DIE, go away and never come back.

Instead we create a practical combat form that is fun to watch, and exciting to compete in that doesnt completely betray the origins of our art


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## zDom (Aug 27, 2008)

I posted in another thread about what I think happened:

In short, the REAL TKD practitioners have been excluded from the sport while a whole, new sport-oriented bunch seized power, highjacked and distorted the "art" for their purposes.

How do you "get them out" when they all "outrank" us? When they probably outnumber us?

A vote sure won't do it.


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## YoungMan (Aug 27, 2008)

The USAT can start by changing the rules so that fighters who are not Ji Do Kwan are equal to those that are. The USAT is a Ji Do Kwan organization. If you are not JDK, good luck.
Twin Fist, you are being much too harsh. Olympic sparring in itself is not bad. It is certainly more fun to watch than many other combat styles (-cough cough-UFC-cough cough-)


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## Laurentkd (Aug 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The USAT can start by changing the rules so that fighters who are not Ji Do Kwan are equal to those that are. The USAT is a Ji Do Kwan organization. If you are not JDK, good luck.
> Twin Fist, you are being much too harsh. Olympic sparring in itself is not bad. It is certainly more fun to watch than many other combat styles (-cough cough-UFC-cough cough-)


 
While I am not at all big on the tournament circut, I have never heard that the USAT is  JDK org.  Can you explain?
please and thanks


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The USAT can start by changing the rules so that fighters who are not Ji Do Kwan are equal to those that are. The USAT is a Ji Do Kwan organization. If you are not JDK, good luck.
> Twin Fist, you are being much too harsh. Olympic sparring in itself is not bad. It is certainly more fun to watch than many other combat styles (-cough cough-UFC-cough cough-)


Interesting observation RE Ji Do Kwan.  If that is the case, then perhaps a name change to Jidokwan would address the issue that Mangoman had brought up regarding a way to separate Olympic TKD and sport TKD? 

RE the UFC, I do on occasion watch it, but I enjoy it for different reasons then I do watching Olympic TKD, as it has many more compenents that Olympic TKD does.  I enjoy Olympic TKD for the same reason that I enjoy fencing; fast action and all strikes, which is my thing.  I enjoy trying to analyze what the UFC fighters are doing, and analyzing is also my thing

By the way, Youngman, I copied part of this quote and response on my 'Olympic vs. Traditional' thread because I thought your observation addressed something that came up there.  Hope that's alright.  If not, I'll delete.

Daniel


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## Windsinger (Aug 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The USAT is a Ji Do Kwan organization.


This is very interesting. I'm curious. Does anyone know if the same applies to Taekwondo Canada? I looked, but haven't been able to find anything about that. (It could be because I just got off a 12-hour shift and am not searching the right keywords.)


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The USAT is a Ji Do Kwan organization.



Huh?  My instructor is Jidokwan and *his* instructor is very Jidokwan and our style of fighting and sparring is very much unlike olympic style


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Olympic sparring in itself is not bad. It is certainly more fun to watch than many other combat styles (-cough cough-UFC-cough cough-)


 
i disagree

as much as i hate mma, and i do in fact HATE mma, you dont see those guys standing there, with thier hands around thier waists bounching for 4 minutes straight.


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## zDom (Aug 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> i disagree
> 
> as much as i hate mma, and i do in fact HATE mma, you dont see those guys standing there, with thier hands around thier waists bounching for 4 minutes straight.



No, you see them rolling around hugging for 4 mins 

j/k  ... kind of


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2008)

zDom said:


> No, you see them rolling around hugging for 4 mins
> 
> j/k  ... kind of


UFC: Feel the love


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## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm not a TKD person and I don't follow the competitions, so I apologize if I'm stepping in where I don't belong.

However, if the situation has truly become unacceptable, perhaps the only solution is to walk away from it.  This is of course a personal decision that would need to be made by every instructor, competitor and school, but if enough people simply abandoned the corruption that seems to have taken over the administration in Korea, then those corrupt individuals who hold the power, will simply hold no power any longer.  

People only hold power when others allow them to.  When enough people simply stop playing their game, then there is no longer a game to be played and they hold no more power.  Let them play in their own sandbox, by themselves.

Of course this would probably mean the end of Olympic TKD, for better or for worse, but it may also open new doors for reorganization and possibly a new group could rise to take the reigns and get it right this time.

I don't know how such a movement would be organized.  But if the cancer is too deeply entrenched to be removed, abandonment may be the only real alternative.  If everyone who was disgusted simply abandoned the cancer, perhaps the cancer will die.


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## YoungMan (Aug 27, 2008)

Check out the backgrounds of every high ranking official of the USAT. I 99% guarantee that they will be Ji Do Kwan. Even if you don't list your style, if they know your Instructor is not Ji Do Kwan, you will not get far. You might win the first round, but that's all.
That's one of the reasons why we never bothered with it.


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## Kacey (Aug 27, 2008)

It's hard to say how much we _need_ to overcome the Olympics.  The average student isn't going to come in wanting to be an Olympic level competitor; certainly, if TKD were better understood by the viewing audience, then the Olympic competition might have a greater effect in terms of bringing in new students, and I do think that the Olympics have not had a positive effect - but I don't think that it's as bad as others think, either.  Of course, having never been in the WTF, I've never really had to deal with it directly, either.


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## granfire (Aug 28, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Check out the backgrounds of every high ranking official of the USAT. I 99% guarantee that they will be Ji Do Kwan. Even if you don't list your style, if they know your Instructor is not Ji Do Kwan, you will not get far. You might win the first round, but that's all.
> That's one of the reasons why we never bothered with it.




I guess there is a reason WTF and wtf are so similar (I always have to check my mind to notice one is the Organization and the other a popular internet abbreviation....)


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## rmclain (Aug 28, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Check out the backgrounds of every high ranking official of the USAT. I 99% guarantee that they will be Ji Do Kwan. Even if you don't list your style, if they know your Instructor is not Ji Do Kwan, you will not get far. You might win the first round, but that's all.
> That's one of the reasons why we never bothered with it.


 
I hope that someone like Mr. Stoker will pop in to confirm if the ranking officials in USAT are from JDK.

If true, then what I find laughable is that JDK is only a name nowadays or an honorary organization of Grandmasters/Masters that "may have" trained in (what was) JDK curriculum a long time ago.  But, none of them follow that line anymore - especially after Lee Jong-woo (One senior JDK Grandmaster) became heavily involved with the WTF in the early 1970's. Yep, he was there in the old days, but doesn't preserve that part anymore. 

 Ask even the most senior Grandmaster claiming JDK lineage if they can demonstrate Yoon Ui-byoung (Yoon Kwe-byoung)'s staff forms (he was the founder of Ji Do Kwan) and most have no idea the forms even existed.  He even created his own bong form. Yoon Ui-byoung (Yoon Kwe-byoung) even published a book on these forms while still a karate student in Japan - I've personally looked at and held this book.  He dedicated the book to his teachers Mabuni Genwa and Toyama Kanken.

So, if the USAT officials are hiding behind the name of JDK for preference of one competitor over another, I see them as no better than schoolyard children organizing a soccer game and announcing "second graders only, no 1st graders!" - or something to that effect.  Must be part of the "indominable spirit" that they claim to teach students.

R. McLain


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## mango.man (Aug 28, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Check out the backgrounds of every high ranking official of the USAT. I 99% guarantee that they will be Ji Do Kwan. Even if you don't list your style, if they know your Instructor is not Ji Do Kwan, you will not get far. You might win the first round, but that's all.
> That's one of the reasons why we never bothered with it.


 
If you are refering to the team members, I certainly do not have the time or patience to try toresearch the lineage of the 20 Jr team members and 16 Sr team members.

I can tell you the my daughter's coach (a 7 time USAT Sr team member) comes from a lineage of Moo Duk Kwan.  But that is about as deep as I care to dig into your question.

If you are talking about those that supposedly "run" the organization, most of them have no TKD experience whatsoever, not even white belt, although Dave Askinas is an "honorary black belt".  That is probably part of our problem over all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2008)

mango.man said:


> If you are talking about those that supposedly "run" the organization, most of them have no TKD experience whatsoever, not even white belt, although Dave Askinas is an "honorary black belt". That is probably part of our problem over all.


Probably??  I'd call that a honkin' huge neon red flag!  While each and every board member need not be a grandmaster, there should be at least some with taekwondo experience.  It isn't like they can't take lessons and get a blackbelt in two years, for cryin' out loud.  And honorary black belts?  I'm not a fan of honorary degrees or belts anyway, not even posthumous ones, for legitamate martial artists.  But giving one to a non-practitioner is just ridiculous.  I read bio, by the way; it mentions a lot of experience as the head of athletic groups and soccor, but nothing about martial arts.  http://www.usoc.us/73_42859.htm

Non MA personel should not be granted honorary belts for any reason whatsoever.  If the guy is a capable administrator with a good understanding of the sport side of taekdwondo, thats fine.  A CEO doesn't need to be a master martial artist; so long his understaning of the dynamics of TKD are strong and that he keeps in touch with with the practitioners in USAT, he can be a fine CEO.  Radio Shack brought in Len Roberts as their president years ago when I worked for them.  He did a very good job and his background was in the restaurant biz.  The skill set required to be a CEO has nothing in common with the skill set to earn a black belt: He doesn't need a belt that he didn't earn to legitamize his position.

That is the sort of thing that perpetuates the question of sport or art.

Daniel


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## YoungMan (Aug 28, 2008)

My reference to the powers that be in USAT come from very senior Taekwondo masters who are familiar with the politics and know why things happen the way they do. I won't get into a "he said-he said" argument but that's what I was told and I have no reason to doubt them.
Being Jidokwan doesn't necessarily mean you know the old forms. We are Chung Do Kwan and do the Palgue forms.


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## mango.man (Aug 28, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> My reference to the powers that be in USAT come from very senior Taekwondo masters who are familiar with the politics and know why things happen the way they do. I won't get into a "he said-he said" argument but that's what I was told and I have no reason to doubt them.
> Being Jidokwan doesn't necessarily mean you know the old forms. We are Chung Do Kwan and do the Palgue forms.


 
Well if you are not willing to give a name of people that make absurd sttatements, or post facts to backup absurd statements, then your statements, at least to me, will be considered absurd.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 28, 2008)

let's ease up a little bit people


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## zDom (Aug 28, 2008)

Just to establish some context, Mango.man, you are the parent of a student who competes in Olympic style TKD, correct?

Does that sum it up accurately? Or do you have any personal experience in martial arts? Does your child participate in any martial arts that are not related to Olympic style competition?


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## mango.man (Aug 28, 2008)

zDom said:


> Just to establish some context, Mango.man, you are the parent of a student who competes in Olympic style TKD, correct?
> 
> Does that sum it up accurately? Or do you have any personal experience in martial arts? Does your child participate in any martial arts that are not related to Olympic style competition?


 
You are correct zDom.  I am merely a parent of an Olympic style TKD'ist.  I do not currently, nor have I ever personally practiced TKD or any other Martial Art.  

My daughter, almost 16 now, has been at it since age 5.  She started off at what most would likely consider a "Traditional School".  Forms (Taegeuk and Palgwe), some Hapkido thrown in, self defense, 1 step & 3 step drills etc.

After about 8 years she was bitten by the competition bug, but our original school that we were at for those 8 years was not able to provide her the level of training that she needed.  She started taking private lessons on Sundays from her current coach and continued attending regular classes at the dojang.  But it quickly became obvious to the instructors, masters and grand master that she was learning new and better stuff.  She was for the most part then forbidden from using her new found skills under the regular dojang roof.  We stuck it out there for as long as we could but it became apparent that if she was going to reach the next level that we would have to move on.

She went to another school, that was about 80 percent competition focused and 20 percent forms & self defense.  I made it very clear that she was taking private lessons on the side as well and she would continue to do so.  The instructor at this place though was just opening up and he wanted someone that had a solid skill set and the determination that my daughter had, so he agreed and said he was OK with her continuing with her private lessons as well.

About 14-15 months into that deal though it was becoming obvious that his goals were changing and rather than cultivate my daughter into a world class athlete as he promised, he decided he would be better off becoming what most here would call a "McDojang" operator.  It was then that we separated from him and her private lesson coach decided it was time to become her (and a handful of other kids with the same dreams) regular full time coach.  And class these days consists of 2 hours of nothing more than Olympic style sparring practice 5-6 times a week.

Maybe, once she gets over the competition bug, she will re-enter the traditional martial art aspect of things.  TKD is all she has ever known as an personal activity.  She's never asked to do soccer or softball or girl scouts etc.  She did gymnastics for about 6 months, but only to help her improve her balance and flexibility for TKD.

She loves the art, but right now she is more in love with the sport.


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## terryl965 (Aug 28, 2008)

Yes alot of the High GM say they are JDK but remember the staff are just staff most of them never even been into any Martial Art let alone TKD. David is an honary BB wish in it self is a joke, but Master McLain is right those that clain JDK are a mere image of the past of it formal self.

I am an instructor and a I compete along with my school we have done great until time for teams and then we never gat a call one way for the better which as always told me I need to play the game but I refuse. This is one reason if you knock them out it leave no doubt mentality.


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## igillman (Sep 1, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I am an instructor and a I compete along with my school we have done great until time for teams and then we never gat a call one way for the better which as always told me I need to play the game but I refuse. This is one reason if you knock them out it leave no doubt mentality.



and the WTF wonders why they have issues with the referees in major international competitions. With "play the game or nothing goes your way" corruption going all the way down to the local level what do they expect?

I admire you for not playing the game and sticking to your guns. If more instructors did that then maybe the corruption would stop. What amazes me is how many instructors and black belts actually accept the corruption as part of the game.


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## terryl965 (Sep 1, 2008)

igillman said:


> and the WTF wonders why they have issues with the referees in major international competitions. With "play the game or nothing goes your way" corruption going all the way down to the local level what do they expect?
> 
> I admire you for not playing the game and sticking to your guns. If more instructors did that then maybe the corruption would stop. What amazes me is how many instructors and black belts actually accept the corruption as part of the game.


 
Thank you alot of instructor are not playing the game but instead is going out with the attitude to knock or make there opponet not wish to contimue. If we are a sport we should all be on a level playing field. Like that will ever happen.


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## Brad Dunne (Sep 1, 2008)

I think Flying Crane offered the answer to the problem. If not mistaken, wasen't there information being offered awhile back, from Terry I believe, about the advent of a new organization becoming available? What ever happened or is happining in regards to this situation?

The subject of TKD vs sport vs organization venues has been ongoing for many years and is still ongoing. Unless those that wish for change are willing to band together and actually do something, even if it is only a handful to start, then we will still be debating this issue somewhere down the line again. You wish to disassociate from the sport version, then relable your school/dojang. Go back to the roots of where TKD came from and what it was called in the beginning. That's one alternative. Another is to just rename your style of TKD by using the kwan you come from and not advertising it as "Olympic Style" TKD. I'm sure other's can offer additional ideas.

If none of the above appeal, then there's always the switch to AAU TKD, perhaps the lesser of two evils?

OK, alot of rhetoric, but here is the real reason for all the problems......
EGO'S of ever instructor that's into the "game" or wants into the game. They want their students to win and when they don't, well you have what you have now. Sports will always have controversy and poor officiating and corruption, because the end all be all revolves around the allmighty dollar. You really want to fix things, even if it's just your little corner of the world? Then walk away from all this BS and go teach what the art/discipline was originally intended to do and that was teach combative survival / self defense. In the fallout of this, perhaps good character, self discipline, honesty and the other tenents subscribed to but rarely adheard to would resurface and take their rightful place in the training and replace the "I was robbed, they cheated, they lied, I didn't win, oh boo hoo"..................


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## Mrluckyman (Sep 1, 2008)

I would like to thank TKD...... TKD has given us a lot of first:

1.) First Grand Master's
2.) Not to be out done, the first Supreme Grand Masters
3.) Super Supreme Grand Masters....with a title like that they must know something
4.) Commercial Dojang Chain of Schools
5.) Youngest Black Belts in history
6.) Highest Child Black Belts in history (14 year old 5th Dans)
7.) Largest martial arts organization in the World (with the most control over its members). Largest organization in America!
8.) Airplane degrees (some were 3rd dan in Korea, flew to the US and were 7th Dans when they got of the plane) These guys are the predessessors of most students of TKD
9.) One of the most popular martial arts with the shortest time to acheive Black Belt.
10.) First punch/kick martial arts included in the Olympics (how did that happen? WTF Chairman was also Vice Chairman of International Olympic Committee. Hmm! I wonder if that influenced the IOC decision to include TKD.
11.) Olympic Scandal on Judging.
12.) Olympic feasco when competitor kicks judge in face.....which didn't injur the judge.....If TKD kicks are so "lethal" why is that judge still alive? he didn't block. The offender had just lost the "Gold Medal" bout....shouldn't his kick have been lethal?


This will NOT change until the focus is taken off the money and put on the sport!

Every TKD dojang says the same thing.... "We are the best!" 
When all is said and done.... it was about the money.....in fact it has always been about the money..... that is why they call it "Take - One's - Do$"

In the words of the immortal Tony Montana; "In this country, you gotta make the money first, then when you get the money, you get the power, when you get the power, then you get the woman."


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## Laurentkd (Sep 1, 2008)

Mrluckyman said:


> I would like to thank TKD...... TKD has given us a lot of first:
> 
> 1.) First Grand Master's
> 2.) Not to be out done, the first Supreme Grand Masters
> ...


 







Way to add to the coversation!


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## terryl965 (Sep 1, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> Way to add to the coversation!


 

Is that scarcasm Lauren


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## mango.man (Sep 1, 2008)

I was just checking out the website for Jimmy Kim's TKD Center to see what sort of welcome home that they gave to Charlotte.  Lot's of nice pictures and cool little tags to go along.

http://www.jktc.com/


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## mango.man (Sep 1, 2008)

Mrluckyman said:


> I would like to thank TKD...... TKD has given us a lot of first:
> 
> 1.) First Grand Master's
> 2.) Not to be out done, the first Supreme Grand Masters
> ...


 
With regards to number 12, it was a bronze medal repchage match, not the gold medal match.  Perhaps that is why he didn't use his "lethal" kick and only used enough force to split the ref's lip open.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 2, 2008)

mango.man said:


> I was just checking out the website for Jimmy Kim's TKD Center to see what sort of welcome home that they gave to Charlotte. Lot's of nice pictures and cool little tags to go along.
> 
> http://www.jktc.com/


Thanks for posting the link

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Sep 2, 2008)

Yes she deserved that welcome, congrats to Charlotte.


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## mango.man (Sep 2, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Yes she deserved that welcome, congrats to Charlotte.


 
Terry,

You still coming out here in a few weeks for the JKI?


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## Laurentkd (Sep 2, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Is that scarcasm Lauren


 
yes sir it was....

I sometimes forget that sarcasm doesn't always translate easily from my head to the screen.


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## terryl965 (Sep 3, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Terry,
> 
> You still coming out here in a few weeks for the JKI?


 
We are still planning on it, I have pit in the request from work, but I have not heard back maybe today at the meeting. I sure hope so.


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## terryl965 (Sep 3, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> yes sir it was....
> 
> I sometimes forget that sarcasm doesn't always translate easily from my head to the screen.


 
I knew it, but was making sure.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 3, 2008)

Mrluckyman said:


> 12.) Olympic feasco when competitor kicks judge in face.....which didn't injur the judge.....If TKD kicks are so "lethal" why is that judge still alive? he didn't block. The offender had just lost the "Gold Medal" bout....shouldn't his kick have been lethal?


I believe the intent was to biarch-slap the ref, not kill him.  I do _believe_ that the ref needed his lip stitched up; I know that it was split.

Regarding the rest of your comment, the martial art itself, nor its olympic inclusion are the cause of taekwondo's problems.  Egos and greed are, which lead to many of the problems that you enumerated.  Such things are not unique to taekwondo, nor do all, or even most taekwondo schools follow in that mold.  Most are just ladies and gents who love the martial arts and are just trying to make a living doing what they love.  

As for Olympic inclusion being influenced by a gent with ties to both the WTF and the IOC?  As the saying goes, it isn't what you know, but who you know.  Gotta hand it to him for networking effectively, though.

Daniel


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## tko4u (Sep 3, 2008)

I believe that the olympics that we saw are NOT what the founders of taekwondo had in mind. Like my opinion matters (haha) but I dont think taekwondo should be in the olympics anymore. That is what the public (non ma) world sees AS taekwondo.


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## slingblade01 (Sep 17, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The USAT can start by changing the rules so that fighters who are not Ji Do Kwan are equal to those that are. The USAT is a Ji Do Kwan organization.


 
:BSmeter:

1. You obviously don't know the CEO or anyone on the BOD.

2. You have no concept of the method to formulate or ammend the rules.

3 You obviously know nothing about the people of the Ji Do Kwan.


To everyone else,

I am new to this site. Is it a common practice for members to speard such blatant misinformation on this site without accountability?

While I am not personal happy with the progress of the current administration of the USAT, this is absolutely irresponsible and slanderous behavior.
The USAT has enough issues to deal with.


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## BrandonLucas (Sep 17, 2008)

I would personally like to see TKD pulled from the Olympics until the corruption could be taken care of.  

That would be the first step, in my honest, humble opinion toward purging the corruption.  

I attribute all of the things I hate about Olympic TKD to the corruption of the "higher-ups".  The bouncy, hands down sparring, the no-power kicks, not scoring punches of any kind, etc.  

I have no idea of how to go about purging the system, but something needs to happen.  And I really think that if TKD was taken out of the Olympics, it would be a great first step in the right direction of whatever needs to happen to bring honor back into our martial art.


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## bluekey88 (Sep 17, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I attribute all of the things I hate about Olympic TKD to the corruption of the "higher-ups". The bouncy, hands down sparring, the no-power kicks, not scoring punches of any kind, etc.


 
I'm sorry, the ruleset is what leads to the guard used in Olympic TKD...nothing to do with corruption.  Same with bouncy sparring.  As to the power of the kicks...welp, they certainly are not without power...nor is that a corruption issue.

Not scoring punches is a political/corruption issue, as is who is in charge of things and what they do with th emoney they take in.  All that stuff sucks, but it doesn;t impact how I fight.

Whether or not TKD is an Olympic sport is not going to have a great impact on how competitiors compete.  What the ruleset is and how it is enforced is what will impact how things are done in the ring.  No more no less.

Peace,
Erik


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## zDom (Sep 17, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> Who knows.  I think the introduction of the electronic gear might improve scoring and change the selection of techniques...assuming that the gear works like some of the recent videos seem to indicate.  It might mean punches to the torso get scored.  IF that happens then the "Frankenstein clinch" will be less popular...(you clinch like that, I punch you and score a point)



That is my hope and thinking. Take the subjectivity out of it: if a technique &#8212; ANY technique, not just the two or three current judges like &#8212; gets the trembling shock level of force, ya get a point. 

This in itself should solve a lot.... I hope.




Another change that is needed, IMO, is to simply open it up to ANYBODY (well, just about). That's right: shouldn't matter what martial art style you study. Kung fu, karate, tkd (ALL kwans, not just the politically connected ones) &#8212; even Muay Thai and MMA.

Another idea for rule change: hands to the head but ONLY to the headgear. Amend rules so only kicks to the headgear score. Make face mask area shots into fouls. This also may solve the chest-rubbing "clinch" problem.  

Hard to stand around pushing your chest into opponent when he/she is rocking your noggin with ridgehands


----------



## zDom (Sep 17, 2008)

And removing "seeding" from national qualification tournaments.

Make EVERYONE fight their way to the top to get a slot.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 17, 2008)

If you think about it, though, they are all related:

The points are not scored for any punches at all.  This means that only kicks are scored.  For a fighter to score a point with a kick, the clearest points are going to be scored with headshots, as the point is most evident that the kick is not being blocked.  There is no mistaking a kick to the head.

Since kicks to the head are the most effective way to score a point, holding your hands up only slows down the kicking process, as well as slowing down your ability to move quickly out of the way of any oncoming kicks.  So no one spars with their hands up; instead, they spar with their hands by their sides.  

The fighters bounce constantly as to be able to spring to one side or the other to quickly evade and counter-kick.

All of this as a result of points not being awarded for hand techniques.  And that is a direct result of corruption, as judges can get away with saying that they "did not see the point".

It's all basically the political trickle-down effect.  

But, like I said, I have no idea how to get rid of the corruption in the higher levels.

And, by the way, I was rather shocked to read that the "higher-ups" in the organization do not have any TKD experience.  I understand that they don't need TKD experience to run a company, per se, but considering what type of organization they are running, it would make a certain amount of sense to at least have some kind of rank.

All of this is just my humble opinion.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 17, 2008)

Awesome posts, Zdom.


----------



## Sylo (Sep 17, 2008)

Charlotte craig is too pretty to not fight with her hands up IMO.


----------



## slingblade01 (Sep 17, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Since kicks to the head are the most effective way to score a point, holding your hands up only slows down the kicking process, as well as slowing down your ability to move quickly out of the way of any oncoming kicks. So no one spars with their hands up; instead, they spar with their hands by their sides.


This is wrong.


> The fighters bounce constantly as to be able to spring to one side or the other to quickly evade and counter-kick.


This is wrong.


> All of this as a result of points not being awarded for hand techniques. And that is a direct result of corruption, as judges can get away with saying that they "did not see the point".


This is wrong.


> It's all basically the political trickle-down effect.
> 
> But, like I said, I have no idea...


 
(edited more appropriately)


----------



## slingblade01 (Sep 17, 2008)

zDom said:


> And removing "seeding" from national qualification tournaments.
> 
> Make EVERYONE fight their way to the top to get a slot.


 
And risk making the top guys fight in the first round and possible injure one another so that a lesser skilled athlete on the other side of the brackets ends up representing our country?

Smart.


----------



## Sylo (Sep 18, 2008)

slingblade01 said:


> And risk making the top guys fight in the first round and possible injure one another so that a lesser skilled athlete on the other side of the brackets ends up representing our country?
> 
> Smart.




how do you know they are the top guys until they fight their way to the top?

I certainly wouldn't consider our current olympians the "top guys". If they really are the "top guys" they could most certainly fight in the first round and do well. 

What happens to all these other guys, who your trying to say aren't "top guys" who still have to fight in the first round? Your basically coming right out and saying that politics choose the team, and not skill. I don't care how well someone has done on some tourney circuit throughout the year, anyone that has "Trained" hard enough and would like to make the attempt to be on the team should have just as much of a chance to do so.

Who chooses who the "top guys" are?  If they are getting injured, then they probably need.. say.. hmm... put their hands up? Since, how else are they going to get hurt? 

I guess you have to be from <School of Olympic TKD champions> to be considered a "top guy" in your eyes. Everyone is equal, until proven otherwise.


----------



## Sylo (Sep 18, 2008)

slingblade01 said:


> This is wrong.
> 
> This is wrong.
> 
> ...



Glad you took the time to explain why it is that what he said was wrong. Way to keep the posts informative. 

you should go back and edit again, and actually give us some reasons. At least clarify or something. 

What Brandon said, didn't seem that far fetched to me. They don't hold their hands up, so their noggins are wide open. 

They need to pull TKD from the olympics until they can fix this stuff.

Or perhaps, put another organization in charge that actually has some experience in TKD.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 18, 2008)

slingblade01 said:


> This is wrong.
> 
> This is wrong.
> 
> ...


 

Failed.


----------



## bluekey88 (Sep 18, 2008)

Let me try.



BrandonLucas said:


> If you think about it, though, they are all related:
> 
> The points are not scored for any punches at all. This means that only kicks are scored. For a fighter to score a point with a kick, the clearest points are going to be scored with headshots, as the point is most evident that the kick is not being blocked. There is no mistaking a kick to the head.


 
head shots can and do get blocked...it's just preferable to evade and counter.  Even a blocked shot can rock you...especially when dealing with full contact kicks.  goign for head shots is preferable because they are worht 2 points and have a greater chance of ending a bout quickly (either by knock out or point gap).  When you have to fight 3 or 4 times to get to a medal match...it's best to conserve ones energy.



> Since kicks to the head are the most effective way to score a point, holding your hands up only slows down the kicking process, as well as slowing down your ability to move quickly out of the way of any oncoming kicks. So no one spars with their hands up; instead, they spar with their hands by their sides.


 
Not exactly.  While head shots are preferable...they have to be set up.  The most common attack is to the body.  most of the kick you see will be some variation of roundhouse or side kick to the torso.  A hands up guard lets those kicks slip in underneath the elbows easily.  Better to drop the gaurd to protect against those kicks.  It's all very pragmatic.



> The fighters bounce constantly as to be able to spring to one side or the other to quickly evade and counter-kick.


 
Not exactly.  When you bounce, you can kick faster.  Speed is the name of the game.  You can hit like a Mac truck, but it means absoulutely nothing if those shots never make it to their target.  

When you're flat footed, you have to generate kinetic energy and move your enitre body (shift your weight) in some way to throw any kick.  If you;re bouncing, that motion is already going...that will save time.  It also helps to disguise or hide your intent.  If you're flat footed, any movement ios probably an attack...if you're bouncing...who knows?  Also if helps with movement, but also disguises your footwork a bit.  All of this helps to keep your opponenet guessing...slowing them down.

hell, i don't see what the problem is with bouncing...boxers do it, MMA fighters who like to strike do it...why not TKD fighters?



> All of this as a result of points not being awarded for hand techniques. And that is a direct result of corruption, as judges can get away with saying that they "did not see the point".
> 
> It's all basically the political trickle-down effect.
> 
> ...


 
The rest is fairly accurate and certainly issues that the WTF, Kukkiwon and USAT need to look at.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Sylo (Sep 18, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> Let me try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

thanks for being informative Erik. I can see how all those things can take place under the ruleset.


----------



## YoungMan (Sep 18, 2008)

A couple of things I would suggest:

1. Let ALL fighters, the Lopezes included, start from the ground up and earn the right to represent us. You might stop seeing this sense of entitlement ("Hey I'm a Lopez I deserve to be here!") that seems to characterize some fighters.

2. Remember when I stated that the USAT is a JiDoKwan organization? I stand by that. Replace the top officials with non-JDK people and let fighters from other organizations (Chung Do Kwan etc.) have an honest chance. Also, make having a legitimate black belt from the Kukkiwon a prerequisite to being an official.


----------



## bluekey88 (Sep 18, 2008)

Maybe I'm misinformed...but the seeding system is essentially that...fighting ot the top.  But instead of doing itin one competition, they look at performance at a variety of qualifying events.  

Now, what happened with the olypic team this year was outside of hat (I think)...the corruption none of us like.  But I think the seeding system, if used as intended should work.  It seems to work in other sports.

Again, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 18, 2008)

Mrluckyman said:


> I would like to thank TKD...... TKD has given us a lot of first:
> 
> 1.) First Grand Master's
> 2.) Not to be out done, the first Supreme Grand Masters
> ...


 
Ya know, that&#8217;s a little harsh, I would like to remind you; *1.)* Other MA styles Have titles! In Karate you have Sensei, Shihan, Shidoshi. *2.)* Karate came to the U.S before TKD. As a matter of fact, Tracy's Karate was among the first commercial &#8220;chain&#8221; Karate Dojo's in the country. *3.)* As far "The largest organizations in the world" TKD happens to be very popular. *4.)* This is why TKD has a large number of youth black belts. *5.)* I can't speak for other TKD school, at my school it takes 3-4 years to earn your Black Belt. *(Years ago most MA students only had the opportunity to train two nights per week, modern schools have classes four to five days a week)* *6.)* I know for a fact GM Uhm, Woon Kyu was VERY instrumental on helping get TKD into the Olympics. *7.)* As far as every TKD school saying they are the best- *Don't you have pride in your school and system?*
*8.)* About the money? Doesn't your Dojo charge for classes? *9.)* As a 28 year student of TKD I am aware of the "magical Planes Departing from Korea with 3rd dans, only to arrive in America 7th dans. Do you not think that happens with Karate styles? If not you are naïve. *10.)* TKD kicks lethal? *ABSOLUTLEY!* I know of one TKD black belt (Roger Stamp) who was sparring his opponent and side kicked him so hard it dislodged his spleen-They rushed him to the hospital.  I was saddened when the Cuban kicked the ref. I contend, if he wanted to knock out the ref. he could have! *11.)* I am appalled at the corruption-It is not just isolated to TKD! I hear they are considering Karate to be voted in the Olympics. In my opinion, I can almost guarantee all the problems associated with the sport of TKD will happen to Karate, it will become about the money as well. Bastardization (of some sort) has happened in all MA including Karate. You are entitled to your opinion! I do have a problem with your "Take - One's - Do$" I find that highly inflammatory and would ask you, did Gichin Funokashi and his underlings get paid to teach and proliferate Karate-DO, Please, I respect your opinion-but in the future try not to be so truculent!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> Maybe I'm misinformed...but the seeding system is essentially that...fighting ot the top. But instead of doing itin one competition, they look at performance at a variety of qualifying events.
> 
> Now, what happened with the olypic team this year was outside of hat (I think)...the corruption none of us like. But I think the seeding system, if used as intended should work. It seems to work in other sports.
> 
> ...


Agreed.  I want to see the top athletes at the olympics, and the way to see who the top athletes are is to look at multiple events, particularly since athletes have good and bad days.

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 18, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> Maybe I'm misinformed...but the seeding system is essentially that...fighting ot the top. But instead of doing itin one competition, they look at performance at a variety of qualifying events.
> 
> Now, what happened with the olypic team this year was outside of hat (I think)...the corruption none of us like. But I think the seeding system, if used as intended should work. It seems to work in other sports.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with this as well...the corruption is the main problem that I can see that needs to be fixed...and I have no idea how to do that.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I agree with this as well...the corruption is the main problem that I can see that needs to be fixed...and I have no idea how to do that.


Unfortunately, once the olympics are involved, corruption is part of the landscape.  Keep in mind that the olympics are, inspite of the claimed spirit of unity in the games, really a forum for promoting nationalism.  National pride is on the line, so any and every effort is made by each nation to insure that their pride is maintained.  The only way to remove corruption from Olympic taekwondo is to remove it from the olympics.  Then it is a question of dealing with the organizations individually; since it wouldn't be olympic tkd anymore, no one org would have any added prestige over any other.

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 18, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Unfortunately, once the olympics are involved, corruption is part of the landscape. Keep in mind that the olympics are, inspite of the claimed spirit of unity in the games, really a forum for promoting nationalism. National pride is on the line, so any and every effort is made by each nation to insure that their pride is maintained. The only way to remove corruption from Olympic taekwondo is to remove it from the olympics. Then it is a question of dealing with the organizations individually; since it wouldn't be olympic tkd anymore, no one org would have any added prestige over any other.
> 
> Daniel


 
Agreed.  I think it would go a long way toward ending the corruption in TKD, but I'm not so sure it would end it completely.  I think that alot of the leadership roles need to change in order for things to truely improve. 

We really need someone to unify TKD and to promote the martial art itself, and not the income that it can bring.  If everything were unified to better the art, then I think alot of the rules placed on the Olympic style sparring would disappear, and there would be more emphasis placed on the art itself, instead of the competition side of it.

That's not to say that the competition side should be done away with, but I think that TKD should place things in priority:  SD training should come first, and then the competition training should come in.

It would be nice to be able to go to any tournement in the world for TKD and compete under the same ruleset.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 18, 2008)

On a side note, it is truely sad that the Olympic games have become a way of promoting nationalism.  The games were intended to pit competitors against one another, not country against country.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Agreed. I think it would go a long way toward ending the corruption in TKD, but I'm not so sure it would end it completely. I think that alot of the leadership roles need to change in order for things to truely improve.


. 
Absolutely right, but removal from the olympics would keep one org from having a lock on a recognized world championship with guaranteed sponsorship and viewers which may attract taekwondoin who otherwise may train in a more SD oriented style.



BrandonLucas said:


> We really need someone to unify TKD and to promote the martial art itself, and not the income that it can bring. If everything were unified to better the art, then I think alot of the rules placed on the Olympic style sparring would disappear, and there would be more emphasis placed on the art itself, instead of the competition side of it.


.Yes and no.  I do believe that the WTF style sparring has a benefit to SD training with regard to kick developement.  But there's no reason to be limited to just one sparring style.  One of the reasons that I enjoy the WTF sparring is specifically because it benefits my kicks.

Unifying everything is not automatically the best either; lots of people would rather see the opposite; nine kwans, each distinct.  Unifying by its very nature tends to force aspects of different styles out, thus nobody winds up training in them and the aspects are lost.



BrandonLucas said:


> That's not to say that the competition side should be done away with, but I think that TKD should place things in priority: SD training should come first, and then the competition training should come in.


.
I agree, though in terms of chronology, competition is best done when the practitioner is young.  There is a fuse on how long one can effectively compete, so I think that those with the competition bug should do so to their hearts content and then focus their training on SD and on teaching younger practitioners. 


BrandonLucas said:


> It would be nice to be able to go to any tournement in the world for TKD and compete under the same ruleset.


Now that would be pretty cool

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> On a side note, it is truely sad that the Olympic games have become a way of promoting nationalism. The games were intended to pit competitors against one another, not country against country.


Once you have competitors representing nations, nationalism is there, and that has been true since day one of the olympics.  The only way to take nationalism out is to have the teams done by drawing names from a hat and simply have teams A, B, C, etc., each with a multinational roster, but that will never happen.

Daniel


----------



## slingblade01 (Sep 18, 2008)

Sylo said:


> how do you know they are the top guys until they fight their way to the top?


 
Where have you been? Every major country AND every major sport uses qualification tournaments and/or point systems to properly seed their athletes. They are looking for the BEST to represent their country/sport, not the luckiest.



> I certainly wouldn't consider our current olympians the "top guys". If they really are the "top guys" they could most certainly fight in the first round and do well.


 
WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
All 4 of our olympians won their first fight.
3 of them medaled.
TKD in the Olympics was not seeded to allow the smaller countries a greater chance at medaling.
Men's heavy weight division was a huge problem. All the top fighters except the Korean were placed on the one side of the bracket, leaving CHA Dong-Min a walk in the park.


> What happens to all these other guys, who your trying to say aren't "top guys" who still have to fight in the first round? Your basically coming right out and saying that politics choose the team, and not skill. I don't care how well someone has done on some tourney circuit throughout the year, anyone that has "Trained" hard enough and would like to make the attempt to be on the team should have just as much of a chance to do so.


They obviously haven't EARNED that right, now have they?
Seeding doesn't necessarily mean you're exempt from the first round.


> Who chooses who the "top guys" are?


Stop educating yourself with ridiculous movies and start reading the qualification and seeding process for yourself.



> If they are getting injured, then they probably need.. say.. hmm... put their hands up? Since, how else are they going to get hurt?


Are you retarded? Who mentioned injuries or hands up.
I thought this thread was going well.



> I guess you have to be from <School of Olympic TKD champions> to be considered a "top guy" in your eyes. Everyone is equal, until proven otherwise.


 
Go to USAT's website and download the packet. Read it thoroughly! Then you can post an apology for this idiotic statement.
I'm not going to continue to educate someone who is too lazy to educate themselves, too narrow minded to see out side their world, or too disrspectful to ask intelligent questions.


----------



## slingblade01 (Sep 18, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> Let me try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You get an A-.
Thanks for picking up the slack!

Motion is changing/has changed to forward/backward (very sutle) instead of up/down.
Again, a pure TKD (not boxing) technique.


----------



## slingblade01 (Sep 18, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> A couple of things I would suggest:
> 
> 1. Let ALL fighters, the Lopezes included, start from the ground up and earn the right to represent us. You might stop seeing this sense of entitlement ("Hey I'm a Lopez I deserve to be here!") that seems to characterize some fighters.


uh, they did start from the ground.
How do you think they team. Please explain in detail.



> 2. Remember when I stated that the USAT is a JiDoKwan organization? I stand by that. Replace the top officials with non-JDK people and let fighters from other organizations (Chung Do Kwan etc.) have an honest chance.


Why don't you show a little responsibility, a support your claim with some facts. Who are all of these JiDoKwan people?



> Also, make having a legitimate black belt from the Kukkiwon a prerequisite to being an official.


And you think the KKW is pure?
Besides, there are plenty of folks willing to sell you KKWs for the right price.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 18, 2008)

Sling?

the way you post, and the comments you make are not helping you.

just a heads up.


----------



## slingblade01 (Sep 18, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> The only way to remove corruption from Olympic taekwondo is to remove it from the olympics. Then it is a question of dealing with the organizations individually; since it wouldn't be olympic tkd anymore, no one org would have any added prestige over any other.
> 
> Daniel


 
Actually, the IOC keeps poking the WTF and telling them to clean up their act. This will never happen if TKD is pulled from the olympics. The WTF is so Korean dominated that the NGBs are powerless. But to play in the olympics, the WTF must answer to the IOC. If problems aren't resolved by 2012, it is my opinion that TKD will be out. If that happens, nationalism will be redefine in TKD; and not for the better.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

Woah!  Lets ramp it down a bit.

Sling, you seem pretty knowleadgeable and I do agree with a lot of your points.  But the response to Sylo could have used a bit more tact.

Daniel


----------



## slingblade01 (Sep 18, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Once you have competitors representing nations, nationalism is there, and that has been true since day one of the olympics. The only way to take nationalism out is to have the teams done by drawing names from a hat and simply have teams A, B, C, etc., each with a multinational roster, but that will never happen.
> 
> Daniel


 

Who would pay for it? (rhetorical)


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

slingblade01 said:


> Actually, the IOC keeps poking the WTF and telling them to clean up their act. This will never happen if TKD is pulled from the olympics. The WTF is so Korean dominated that the NGBs are powerless. But to play in the olympics, the WTF must answer to the IOC. If problems aren't resolved by 2012, it is my opinion that TKD will be out. If that happens, nationalism will be redefine in TKD; and not for the better.


You know, I hadn't actually thought of it from that perspective.  I know that the WTF has had plenty of corruption issues independently of the olympics.  I'm pretty sure that TKD is slated for 2012, but after that, who knows?  I've heard a lot on the subject on this and other boards, but I have no solid info one way or the other.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

slingblade01 said:


> Who would pay for it? (rhetorical)


Indeed.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

slingblade01 said:


> And you think the KKW is pure?
> Besides, there are plenty of folks willing to sell you KKWs for the right price.


Very true.  Sadly.

Daniel


----------



## slingblade01 (Sep 18, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> You know, I hadn't actually thought of it from that perspective. I know that the WTF has had plenty of corruption issues independently of the olympics. I'm pretty sure that TKD is slated for 2012, but after that, who knows? I've heard a lot on the subject on this and other boards, but I have no solid info one way or the other.
> 
> Daniel


 
Well the lawsuit against the WTF should have some teeth to it. With the IOC watching this lawsuit and having their own problems with the WTF, I hope we get true reform this time and not more lip-service.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 19, 2008)

I personally beleive we CAN and MUST overcome-for "our" beloved art. This might sound naive, but I think if  we (TKDist) that recognize what is good first-we can start to improve what needs improving. It will take all of us at the "grass roots" level-the school owners. Remember- one is too small a number to achieve greatness.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 19, 2008)

if they changed the fighting to look like the bes tof the best, TKD would rock, till then?

forget it


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 19, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> if they changed the fighting to look like the bes tof the best, TKD would rock, till then?
> 
> forget it


 

Yessir.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 19, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> if they changed the fighting to look like the bes tof the best, TKD would rock, till then?
> 
> forget it


This may be hard to believe, but haven't seen that movie yet.  I'll have to rent it this weekend.

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 19, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> This may be hard to believe, but haven't seen that movie yet. I'll have to rent it this weekend.
> 
> Daniel


 
Oh, man...

Best of the Best, Bloodsport, Gymkata and The Karate Kid are the biggest reasons I started martial arts!!  

You are in for a treat, sir.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 19, 2008)

Remember all, but of the ones you mention, I've only seen Karate Kid.  Now, I have seen all of the eighties era Sho Kosugi ninja movies: Enter the Ninja, Revenge of the Ninja, and Ninja Three: The Domination.  And how about Showdown in Little Tokyo, with Dolph Lundgren and Brandon Lee?  Or those first five or so Segal movies from Above the Law through Under Siege; those all rocked.

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 19, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Remember all, but of the ones you mention, I've only seen Karate Kid. Now, I have seen all of the eighties era Sho Kosugi ninja movies: Enter the Ninja, Revenge of the Ninja, and Ninja Three: The Domination. And how about Showdown in Little Tokyo, with Dolph Lundgren and Brandon Lee? Or those first five or so Segal movies from Above the Law through Under Siege; those all rocked.
> 
> Daniel


 
I had to add to your rep for that post...every last movie you listed rocks face!!!


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 19, 2008)

the final fight in best of the best is the best TKD ever put on film, it is awe inspiring to watch


----------



## YoungMan (Sep 19, 2008)

Well, first of all it's a movie. Movie fighting should be fun to watch. Second, one of the reasons why Olympic sparring has gone downhill is because it's turned into a chess game where two fighters spend forever feeling each other out and waiting for a bad move.
The end result is two people taking forever to actually do anything because they're so afraid of being scored on.
I think you need a wholesale redesign by the powers that be at the WTF as to what makes good free fighting.
I remember doing traditional sparring in class years ago and it was good action-filled sparring. WTF rules, but we didn't take ten years waiting to make a move either.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 19, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> This may be hard to believe, but haven't seen that movie yet.  I'll have to rent it this weekend.
> 
> Daniel



Best of the Best is...Awesome! Except for Eric Roberts bad acting!


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 19, 2008)

whatjoo talkin bout Willis?

"Pop it Tommy..............POP IT!!!"

thats right up there with "cut me Mick.............cut me"


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 19, 2008)

From reading every post on this thread (except for the one with the sarcastic laundry list of TKD firsts) It's obvious we ALL are VERY passionate about "OUR" beloved TAEKWONDO (Yeah baby! :highfive So please remember the one thing we ALL have in common is our love for the ART and the SPORT- and in my opinion, The passion we feel for TKD should unite us.(Despite our individual opinions)  I fell in love with the ART Loooooong before it became an Olympic sport. As far as it remaining an Olympic event--I can take it, or leave it. I tell my students, as practitioners, we are fortunate to be a part of TKD's history- and that each of them bring their God given talent and uniqueness to the Art. I am about passing along and promoting the ART and the TRADITION first, the sport second. For one day... all of us who teach will depart form the earth . We owe it to TKDst yet to be born- to help keep it the most widely practiced martial art in the world. "So shall it be written...So shall it be done"


----------



## tko4u (Sep 19, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> whatjoo talkin bout Willis?
> 
> "Pop it Tommy..............POP IT!!!"
> 
> thats right up there with "cut me Mick.............cut me"


 

that's classic, but not as good as

"sweep the leg!" or "get him a body bag, ahhhhhh"


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## Twin Fist (Sep 19, 2008)

NOTHING can touch either one of these



tko4u said:


> "sweep the leg!" or "get him a body bag, ahhhhhh"


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## YoungMan (Sep 20, 2008)

Twenty five years later and people still know where those quotes came from.


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## Sylo (Sep 20, 2008)

See my sig..


also... other memorable ones....

"A team is not a team, if you don't give a damn about one another"
"Its a full count and I'm about to hit a home run on your face boy"

"You learn Karate from Book?"
"Well if it isn't little Danielle. Whats a matter Danielle? Mommy not here to dress ya?"
"Karate here, Karate here, Karate never here"


"Whoaaaa.. thats the fastest thing I ever saw!"
"Hey frankie, you better stop doing that. You might wanna have kids one day..."
"He's the american that plays tricks with bricks"

"No step there"
"Kick the tree"
"Nuk Su Cow(sp)"

see if you can guess what movies these are from.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 20, 2008)

In order
Best of the Best
Karate Kid
Bloodsport
Kickboxer

come on, those were easy





Sylo said:


> See my sig..
> 
> 
> also... other memorable ones....
> ...


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## terryl965 (Sep 20, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> From reading every post on this thread (except for the one with the sarcastic laundry list of TKD firsts) It's obvious we ALL are VERY passionate about "OUR" beloved TAEKWONDO (Yeah baby! :highfive So please remember the one thing we ALL have in common is our love for the ART and the SPORT- and in my opinion, The passion we feel for TKD should unite us.(Despite our individual opinions) I fell in love with the ART Loooooong before it became an Olympic sport. As far as it remaining an Olympic event--I can take it, or leave it. I tell my students, as practitioners, we are fortunate to be a part of TKD's history- and that each of them bring their God given talent and uniqueness to the Art. I am about passing along and promoting the ART and the TRADITION first, the sport second. For one day... all of us who teach will depart form the earth . We owe it to TKDst yet to be born- to help keep it the most widely practiced martial art in the world. "So shall it be written...So shall it be done"


 

Bery well said


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## YoungMan (Sep 21, 2008)

The nice about Taekwondo, and something that sets it apart from other arts, is that it can change. Whether as a collective group (Kukkiwon), organizations (Kwans), or schools, we can analyze Taekwondo, decide what is good and bad, and act accordingly.
I think within a few years, the Kukkiwon will weaken and the Kwans will reassert themselves. You will then see some major changes in Taekwondo's focus.


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## terryl965 (Sep 21, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The nice about Taekwondo, and something that sets it apart from other arts, is that it can change. Whether as a collective group (Kukkiwon), organizations (Kwans), or schools, we can analyze Taekwondo, decide what is good and bad, and act accordingly.
> I think within a few years, the Kukkiwon will weaken and the Kwans will reassert themselves. You will then see some major changes in Taekwondo's focus.


 

I believe you are right


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## Kwanjang (Sep 21, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The nice about Taekwondo, and something that sets it apart from other arts, is that it can change. Whether as a collective group (Kukkiwon), organizations (Kwans), or schools, we can analyze Taekwondo, decide what is good and bad, and act accordingly.
> I think within a few years, the Kukkiwon will weaken and the Kwans will reassert themselves. You will then see some major changes in Taekwondo's focus.



Double Ditto! :highfive:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 22, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> From reading every post on this thread (except for the one with the sarcastic laundry list of TKD firsts) It's obvious we ALL are VERY passionate about "OUR" beloved TAEKWONDO (Yeah baby! :highfive So please remember the one thing we ALL have in common is our love for the ART and the SPORT- and in my opinion, The passion we feel for TKD should unite us.(Despite our individual opinions) I fell in love with the ART Loooooong before it became an Olympic sport. As far as it remaining an Olympic event--I can take it, or leave it. I tell my students, as practitioners, we are fortunate to be a part of TKD's history- and that each of them bring their God given talent and uniqueness to the Art. I am about passing along and promoting the ART and the TRADITION first, the sport second. For one day... all of us who teach will depart form the earth . We owe it to TKDst yet to be born- to help keep it the most widely practiced martial art in the world. "So shall it be written...So shall it be done"


Probably one of the best posts in this thread.  I had to rep you!  Of course with that last sentence, I'm picturing Yul Brynner in a dobok overseeing class with his assistant master, Vincent Price.

Daniel


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## Kwanjang (Sep 22, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Probably one of the best posts in this thread.  I had to rep you!  Of course with that last sentence, I'm picturing Yul Brynner in a dobok overseeing class with his assistant master, Vincent Price.
> 
> Daniel



LOL- The last quote just popped out!

Thanks Celtic Tiger :asian:


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