# The Person You Will Most Likely Face



## MJS (Oct 5, 2006)

Lately, there seems to be the never-ending debate of MMA vs TMA, with both sides debating their respective techniques. My question is, outside of the ring, on the street, where the majority of us will find ourselves, what type of attacker will we most likely face? Will is be some average Joe, with no skill at all? Will it be someone who is a trained fighter, such as a Ken Shamrock or Tito Ortiz? Will it be someone with no formal training, other than some street knowledge?

I have my thoughts on this, but will reserve them for a while. 

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Oct 5, 2006)

Old age!


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## John Brewer (Oct 5, 2006)

As an instructor told me, "We want you to be able to defend yourself from the accomplished street brawler. If you can do this the average Joe won't be a problem". I think most situations where you cannot get out of fighting will be with just such a person. Just my opinion.


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## MJS (Oct 5, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Old age!


 
Yeah, isnt that the truth!! LOL!


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## Bigshadow (Oct 5, 2006)

I believe one should train to be the best they can be.  On the street there are so many factors that go into a real fight that even the best could be snuffed out by the most untrained individual.  Sure, that untrained individual might not be able to consistently do that, it could have been a lucky situation for them.  But when it comes to life and death, one life is all you have, protect it the best you possibly can.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 5, 2006)

On the street? A crazy soccer mom drinking coffee and talking on a cell phone while driving a giant SUV


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 5, 2006)

Chances are it'd be someone with some skills picked up "on the street" or from prison.  Even if you find yourself pitted against an untrained person, remember that Murphy was an optomist.

Jeff


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 5, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> On the street? A crazy soccer mom drinking coffee and talking on a cell phone while driving a giant SUV


LOL!

And to think I bit my tongue to keep from posting something similar!


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## Drac (Oct 5, 2006)

Usually intoxicated drivers who decide that I am not going to arrest him or tow his vehicle...RIGHT!!!


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## Rook (Oct 5, 2006)

MJS said:


> Lately, there seems to be the never-ending debate of MMA vs TMA, with both sides debating their respective techniques. My question is, outside of the ring, on the street, where the majority of us will find ourselves, what type of attacker will we most likely face? Will is be some average Joe, with no skill at all? Will it be someone who is a trained fighter, such as a Ken Shamrock or Tito Ortiz? Will it be someone with no formal training, other than some street knowledge?
> 
> I have my thoughts on this, but will reserve them for a while.
> 
> Mike


 
I figure you should be ready for anything.  Lots of people in inner cities go to boxing gyms, wrestling is popular in high schools across America, a good part of the population has been to prison and been exposed to jailfighting systems, traditional martial arts are available on every streetcorner from sea to shining sea and there are lots of opportunities for the agressive but untrained to fight frequently.  You never know what type of person you are going to have to defend yourself from.


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## Robert Lee (Oct 5, 2006)

That depends on where you are. And in todays times You have to not only fight that person he often has a friend there to that will get in on the fight. Then you have so many on drugs now And they even if they are not that good of a fighter the drugs help them fight better because they are harder to stop. Feel less pain The brain will not shut down as easy on a hit. Then you have the ones that use say a baseball bat and such. In a bar or club well you have a better chance close combat But watch when you leave. Ever fight some one thats high on speed and been drinking to. I had to do this about a year ago. I handled it pretty well But I hit this person and never KO,ed him  And I hit him with several good hits had to submit him as no hit would keep him from coming A choke was all that stopped him If you fight a drugged person Its like you have to stop them I am in my mid 50s He was in his mid 20s. was choking my daughter So I had to do something. They are divorced now. What I am saying train hard and do what you have to do The average Joe will probaly not be looking for a fight But the other guy That has had a few fights he will be the one you would have to fight more often. It has never been MMA or TMA its you that day


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## hemi (Oct 5, 2006)

MJS said:


> Lately, there seems to be the never-ending debate of MMA vs TMA, with both sides debating their respective techniques. My question is, outside of the ring, on the street, where the majority of us will find ourselves, what type of attacker will we most likely face? Will is be some average Joe, with no skill at all? Will it be someone who is a trained fighter, such as a Ken Shamrock or Tito Ortiz? Will it be someone with no formal training, other than some street knowledge?
> 
> I have my thoughts on this, but will reserve them for a while.
> 
> Mike


 

I would say that in most cases a fight on the street would an average Joe. People tend to let their mouth sign checks that their rear ends cant cash. I have had people try to get me to pull over because something that happened in traffic. One such case the guy wanted over and waited till the last minute and I had no place to go, I had cars all around me. But this person though he needed to get me on the side of the road and pound me. I could tell he was very out of shape, I dont know for a fact that he was untrained but most martial artists I have ever met do not conduct themselves in the manner he did. Needless to say I kept going and I have never seen this person again.  

I think that most criminals are not trained, they are desperate. That makes them dangerous; they attack, rob, and kill, because of various degrees of desperation. They need money for drugs, people are after them and want money, hate, fear, or are just plain crazy or are even just unwilling to work and would rater take what you have. But these same people dont generally go toe to toe. These people use surprise, weapons, cover, and they tend to move in do the deed and get away. These people dont want to fight and stand around and brag. 

And as far as fighting someone like Ken Shamrock on the street I dont think that would ever happen. If they trained that hard and for that long why would they waste their time fighting some average Joe? 

Another thing I was talking to a friend of mime about the other day. I have noticed lately that there seems to be two kinds of people walking around. Those that are targets and those would more than likely be left alone. The people that are prime targets are the average people in America and its scary. (Please no one take offence by what I am about to type.) Seems to me most people in America are very, very out of shape. Im not talking about the person that could loose 15lbs, but more so those that are 60 to 80lbs heavy. These people sit at a desk or a cubical all day everyday. These people do not exercise at all, none they walk to their car after work then sit when they get home. These people could not do 1 push up, sit up, crunch; pull up, hell even one jumping jack. I am not making fun of these people but I am making a point. These same people have never ever been in a fight, on the street or in any type of class environment. They have no training and have no idea what to do if confronted.

Too make matters worse as they walk around going to lunch, to the store, any place. These people most of the time have a cell phone stuck in their ear, or they are talking and do not notice anything that is going on around them. That makes their chances of being a victim drastically increase. If confronted by anyone they do not have any other option but to give in to the demand of the attacker. Or if they were challenged by someone for what ever reason say they bumped into someone and that person got upset and were to confront them. Im not saying a martial artist should wipe the floor with this person but if unable to deescalate the situation that is an option.  The only option the untrained, out of shape person with no way to protect themselves might just end up dead over some stupid small lapse of judgment on the part of someone else. 

Its just sad that so many people have no idea how vulnerable they are and how they unintendedly paint a large target on themselves.


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## Drac (Oct 5, 2006)

Rook said:


> I figure you should be ready for anything. Lots of people in inner cities go to boxing gyms


 
Very true...Up here there is a dojo in the inner city..Better than half of the students are on relief so they are not bothred with the task of having to work for a living which leaves them free to train ALL DAY..Pity the officer who says that all that training karate-crap is a waste of time (beside that it would interfere with his bowling nights) that runs across one of these students...


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## Nomad (Oct 5, 2006)

MJS said:


> Lately, there seems to be the never-ending debate of MMA vs TMA, with both sides debating their respective techniques. My question is, outside of the ring, on the street, where the majority of us will find ourselves, what type of attacker will we most likely face? Will is be some average Joe, with no skill at all? Will it be someone who is a trained fighter, such as a Ken Shamrock or Tito Ortiz? Will it be someone with no formal training, other than some street knowledge?
> 
> I have my thoughts on this, but will reserve them for a while.
> 
> Mike


 
You hope that it'll be an average Joe with no skill at all.  Trouble is, looks can be deceiving and you may not be able to tell his skill level until he shows you.  Hope for the best, train for the worst, and be polite so neither one wants to hurt you (ie. don't provoke anyone).


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## MA-Caver (Oct 5, 2006)

A lot of the "attackers" on the street are going to be untrained (in MA) but experienced street fighters. Fair warning... they do NOT fight like you do in the dojo. They will use any and every means at their disposal to get you down. This means the broken bottles, scraps of 2X4's and whatever else to up the ante will be used by them.... by all means do the same. 
Some will have gotten some training in a formal MA school but they'll have stopped mid-way to their BB for one reason or another... and chances are it'll have been years since they've seen the inside of a dojo; i.e. they took it as kids/teens and then quit. 

Expect the unexpected and you shouldn't be surprised at what the other guy knows. Be sure to do the opposite surprise the other guy with what you DO know. 
_
"Walk away from trouble if you can"._ ~Kenny Rogers


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## searcher (Oct 5, 2006)

I hope for the best, but for some odd reason I seem to draw in the people with something to prove.   I can be doing nothing more than walking down the street and it seems like I have a sign over my head saying, "Hey, come mess with me."   I have, for the most part avoided any physical altercations, but there are those times.   The typical age range is the 18-25 YO that is in need to prove things to his friends.   In the last few months things have changed for the State of Kansas with the passing of the Concealed Carry Law.   I am interested to see how many les or more altercatons will come from this.   And there is no level of preparation for a mid-caliber handgun, in the dojo/dojang.

Now after putting in my thoughts and my past experience, to answer the question.   I believe that my next encounter on the street will be with a former associate or former co-worker.   There are to many of them that have a slight dis-like for me.   This mixed with their love of liquid courage from the local bar is a wonderous mix for them to try something.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.


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## Drac (Oct 5, 2006)

Nomad said:


> You hope that it'll be an average Joe with no skill at all. Trouble is, looks can be deceiving and you may not be able to tell his skill level until he shows you. Hope for the best, train for the worst, and be polite so neither one wants to hurt you (ie. don't provoke anyone).


 
Yep, and that goes back to the drug issue...Assisted an officer last week in arresting a 19 yr old male...Unknown to us at that time the kid had been smoking "wet" cigarettes and was as strong as the 2 of us and didn't react to pain..It was scary...


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## zDom (Oct 5, 2006)

searcher said:


> I hope for the best, but for some odd reason I seem to draw in the people with something to prove.   I can be doing nothing more than walking down the street and it seems like I have a sign over my head saying, "Hey, come mess with me."



You and me both. Ever since I was old enough to leave the yard without mommy holding my hand, I've been a target and victim of assaults.

A few situations were avoidable with wiser choices on my part, but most were not. There was a brief time when I tried not fighting back. It didn't work out so well: they would beat on me for awhile and stop when they got winded.

Fighting back, before I trained martial arts, had mixed results.

When I first started martial arts (that decision made largely in part to having my jaw shattered and three teeth knocked out in an assault by three men, one armed with a tire tool), I studied bar fights for a couple of years.

There was a bar in town that if I showed up at about 11 p.m, chances are I would see a fight before closing time.

Granted, of all the places I've lived (and I lived in a lot of places -- mostly in California, then St. Louis and finally Southeast Missouri), the Missouri Bootheel seems to have the highest number of simple assaults.

Bootheel assaults are usually no weapons, no robbery motive or any other secondary motive, usually end up being multiple attackers. Alcohol is almost ALWAYS a factor.

I agree with searcher: it is usually males aged 18-25, maybe 18-30.

"Average Joes" aren't the most likely attackers, IMO. Attackers (or primary instigators) are usually an "accomplished street brawler" which isn't exactly a trained fighter, but IS more experienced than an "average Joe."

Victims, on the other hand, very often ARE "average Joes" must minding their own business.

Typical attacker skills range from "look tough but really can't fight" to "can and will put you in the hospital unless somebody intervenes."

Preparing for the worst is a good way to go, for the most part. But it's not worth traveling to the ends of the earth to seek out the most effective techniques known to mankind. Having experienced lots of assaults, I have an idea of what is effective and what isn't.

Since studying the martial arts (a very traditional, hard-core taekwondo and hapkido), I no longer worry about being assaulted.

Attackers have regretted picking me on every occassion since I started training. And as I no longer limp my way home humilated, brusied and injured, I'm pretty pleased with my choices.

This is all based on personal experience. Things may be very different where you are.


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## still learning (Oct 5, 2006)

Hello, I work with a few guys who grew up in a rough part of town.  They like to get into fights...mostly against guys they knew could not fight/ or fight back.  They grew up learning street fighting skills (anything goes).

They can sense when not to escalated a situtions where they might not come out head. Usually starts with one on one, (they have people waiting to join in).  They will keep hitting you till you cannot move...comes from experience.

So you aveage JOE"S who usually do not get into street fights but train in some kind of Martial arts......Watch out...best to avoid and live to see the next day.  Guys who act tough...usually has weapons or friends ready to join in!  Odds will be on there side...cause they want to pound you...where you the innocent wants NO trouble.....Be smart...run and run fast away......or HIT first then leave quickly.........Aloha

PS:OVER 22,000 PEOPLE die each year because of their EGO"S or pride....Learn to avoid....life will last longer...


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## MJS (Oct 5, 2006)

Great replies!  There are too many to quote seperately, so I'll just comment as a whole.  I notice that the majority are on the lines of saying that it'll be the average Joe that we face.  IMHO, that is also my line of thinking as well.  I do my best to prepare for the worst case, in the hopes that it won't get to that point.  In other words, train for every possible scenario, even if we never end up needing it.  I'd rather have the skills and not need them, instead of needing them and not having them in my toolbox.

I'm sure many will have that 'street experience' but no formal training.  These are still people that we should be training for as well.

So..all that being said, looking back at many conversations on my art vs your art, and then at the replies here, it seems to me that the martial art skills that one has, should be more than enough, considering we're most likely not going to be facing a pro fighter.  I'm sure a good portion of us are gearing our training for a life and death confrontation, not a "battle" in the ring.


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## Hand Sword (Oct 5, 2006)

From my many experiences, I would say that the average joe is not the most likely. Instead, it's the alpha males/females of society, who, since school days always picked on the average joe's and jane's. They were always bigger, more aggressive, and meaner. As adults, little changes, except for jail house degrees of doing it better, added to their bullying experience. That, and a lot of hostile experience, would be the formal training, maybe some boxing also, that they possess. They learned early on force was productive for them.


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## swiftpete (Oct 6, 2006)

Its hard to say what you'll face as every confrontation is different and all that. But it does seem to be young men with something to prove to their friends and (if possible) any females about that tend to start most trouble as far as I've seen. In my experience, the sort of people who like it if the odds are in their favour but aren't too keen on one on one.
In my area lately there have been a gang of older teenage boys/men wandering the streets from the neighbouring village. They pick on lone men or younger lads and as there are about 20 of them, some of them armed with bats, then you have to be a pretty special fighter to come out on top. I've heard about them beating people up, but not come across them myself yet. I do know though that two of them were KO'd last weekend by some of the older locals who'd taken exception to them intimidating people and grouped together, but apparently it hasn't deterred them.

Apparently they're aged 15-19. Do you think you could take 20 of those on singlehanded? I would rather not test myself if poss but I would say singly they would more than likely not dare say boo to a goose. Unfortunately these sort of idiots don't operate singly. So anyway in my area thats the sort of person you're most likely to face. a complete and utter chump.


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## bydand (Oct 6, 2006)

In my exposure to these types it wasn't the average Joe looking for a fight, it was the guy who either was, or fancied himself a streetfighter.  As has already been said, they usually are on the lookout for the average looking guy to show how accomplished a fighter they are to their friends.  Most have enough sense to figure out when the average looking guy isn't intimidated by their show of force, and move on to an easier target.  I was always the average looking guy. Too bad I enjoyed mixing it up a bit usually. LOL


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## Nomad (Oct 6, 2006)

Don't underestimate _anyone_.

An "average Joe" (ok, hopefully not too average) the other day decided to stab his wife with a steaknife... downtown, in broad daylight. 

A storeowner came out when she heard the commotion and hit the attacker with an oak leaf from a table... twice, in the back of the head.  It didn't phase him at all... he kept stabbing his wife.  Another lady intervened, breaking a golf club across him, then managed to stun him a little with her second stroke, which caught him in the forehead.  Two guys were then able to wrestle him to the ground and hold him for the police.

Unfortunately, by this time, the wife had been stabbed 24 times, and died a couple of hours later in the hospital.

Don't know if he was drunk, on drugs, or just riding the adrenaline, but it shows the hits someone can take without going down.


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## Drac (Oct 6, 2006)

Nomad said:


> Don't underestimate _anyone_


 
Good post Nomad..That rule has kept me safe on the streets for 19 years...


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 6, 2006)

In my area, the person most likely to attack someone, is the gangsta wannabe. Pants hanging around their butt, shirt twelve sizes too big, speaking some god awful language, that kind of sounds like English, but not really. Baltimore is full of these little idiots. They rove around in packs of about 5 to 7 Lil G's, all ready to get in your face with their friends around. Alone, they are afraid of their own shadow.


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## zDom (Oct 6, 2006)

I agree.

Cowards, under the right (er, wrong rather) circumstances, can often be the most dangerous people.


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## James Clifton (Oct 9, 2006)

Answer is usually,UNKNOWN Type!! BB Instructor,at the mall going to the movies...BIKER...makes comments to his wife...BB & his wife try to walk away....doesn't work!! BB nails this Biker....numerous times(Biker was no rook)...took the shots & kept coming! LEOS show up arrest the guy...he had priors.BB told my brother later....Biker was experienced....knew it was going to get bad & from what I did & saw...he didn't know if he could have taken him..Biker got in some shots too !!BB is NOT a small man & neither was the BIKER..BB goes about 6'1 210!! You just never know..only thing I know is to do what I do...know your ART..."REAL"WELL & i DON'T MEAN JUST PRACTICING WHAT YOU DO IN THE DOJO!! As a young guy(loooong ago),bouncing in a Nightclub...I found a LOT I was taught & I MEAN A LOT...did NOT work in the real world!!
Be safe,
          Jim 

PS-FYI-You had ALSO better learn how to use a blade AND "MOST"important "HOW TO RUN"!!


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## searcher (Oct 9, 2006)

Clifton is right.   The bigger they are, the more bones they break.  

In a situation like the one described you almost always have to make one or more of their body parts stop functioning.    We all have to face the fact that there are some very big, extremely tough guys out there that fight on a regular basis.


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## whitedragon_48 (Oct 9, 2006)

I agree with most of you. Pros won't risk injury to fight someone, they're worth just too much $ for that. Funny thing is that Pros are predictible, but you'll most likely face an amateur. I say prepare for anything and fight dirty. "In the end what matters is not who's right but who's left" Ed Parker.


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## Rook (Oct 9, 2006)

whitedragon_48 said:


> I agree with most of you. Pros won't risk injury to fight someone, they're worth just too much $ for that. Funny thing is that Pros are predictible, but you'll most likely face an amateur. I say prepare for anything and fight dirty. "In the end what matters is not who's right but who's left" Ed Parker.


 
You don't know that.  Some people, MMA, TMA, boxing, wrestling etc. despite their extensive training and high paychecks and even major ad revenues still go around looking for fights.  Most don't, but expecially with the pro-boxers, they are definately around.  Also, just because someone has training in one area doesn't mean that in a streetfight they won't deviate from that.


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## whitedragon_48 (Oct 10, 2006)

Rook said:


> You don't know that. Some people, MMA, TMA, boxing, wrestling etc. despite their extensive training and high paychecks and even major ad revenues still go around looking for fights. Most don't, but expecially with the pro-boxers, they are definately around. Also, just because someone has training in one area doesn't mean that in a streetfight they won't deviate from that.


 
Well, with all due respect, *I do know that.* I work with criminals 40hrs+ a week and in my experience out of 1,500+ inmates I know, I've identified maybe, 5 or 6 that are trained in MAs (one I know for a fact was an ex-TKD champ). Lets make that, say, 15, counting boxers, wrestlers, ex-military and MAist, that is still 1% that are actually trained in fighting.

I don't deny that there exceptions to the rule, but most prize fighters know well that if they act like idiots and get into a street fight they might get hurt, thus, ending their careers. Yes, there is a possibility but its so small that's barely there (like I said 1% or less), but is still worth to prepare for that. 

During my younger, stupider years I was involved in my fair share of bar fights. Also I worked as a bouncer on the side. All the subjects I encountered where just your average "tough guy" with something to prove. No real fighting skill but experienced brawlers. Those are the ones you need to watch out for; thats your "most likely" subject.


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## Mishael (Oct 13, 2006)

I have had pretty much the entire gambit of people start fights with me.  The most skilled was a black belt assistant instructor or a bouncer.  The least skilled was a college football player at a booze party.  The black belt made the mistake of starting the fight in the men's room of a bar where he couldn't get off his kicks.  The bouncer wisely choose the dance floor of the bar.  I have to agree with the posters who said trained to be the best you can and learn what works and what doesn't.  When my son was a bouncer, he used one of the same things I used when confronted, rage.  MOST tough guys know they are tough and don't look for fights.  It's the wantabe tough guys or those with criminal mind sets that have to prove something that is most likely to confront you.  The pack is also very dangerous.


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## searcher (Oct 15, 2006)

Mishael said:


> MOST tough guys know they are tough and don't look for fights.


 
I agree with this.   The guys that have always scared the crap out of me are the guys being quiet and setting in the corner minding his own business.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Oct 16, 2006)

Is it me or is everyone and there brother training to be ultimate fighters?   Bouncing in the bar I've noticed gangs of these guys coming in together talking about submissions and elbows.  I seen a commercial for a huge Ultimate fighter gym in my area that's opened.  They advertise they teach boxing, muay ti, subission wreslting and maybe something else.  This seems to be the lastest craze and at least in my area it seems to be taking off.


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## searcher (Oct 16, 2006)

Give it a few months and most of those guys will be doing something else.   They could also be like many of the people in my area that watch a bunch of it on T.V.


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