# Modern Arnis/Balintawak/Relationships and other discussions



## Emptyglass

Hi all:

Since I wanted to keep talking I did the thread split here myself from the Symposium DVD Review thread. And off we go...

Rich Parsons said:

Rich Curren,

Remy Presas trained first with Moncal, and then Maranga, and then Bacon. Bacon being the Grand Master of Balintawak.

Now, if you told me the two were exchanging old stories about Remy's class mates (* Tabaoda's Instructors, or Instructor to his instructor *), or that they were both reviewing stuff they had learned. I would agree. If you were to tell me that Bobby was showing Remy some of the stuff added in by his lineage, then I would also agree.

Yet to imply, that Taboada Balintawak influenced Modern Arnis in any significant way, I cannot believe. I will believe that Balintawak as it was taught to Remy by his three instructors, including Anciong Bacon, influenced Modern Arnis.

 - Errrm, ok, I wasn't implying that, although Tim Kashino has done an ample job of explaining how I think it may have influenced the introduction and display of Tapi-Tapi (or Tapik-Tapik, etc...) to Modern Arnis players in general by the Professor. I was more speaking of Bacon's Balintawak more than Grandmaster Bobby's as he and the Professor both had the same teacher at one point. However, if you see GM Bobby's movement and introductory training material, I believe you will see the similarities between it and Modern Arnis (at least Modern Arnis as I was taught it). That should be a more precise clarification of what I was talking about.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


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## DoxN4cer

Nice clarification, Rich.

Perhaps Paul Martin would care to join this discussion?

Tim


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Yet to imply, that Taboada Balintawak influenced Modern Arnis in any significant way, I cannot believe. I will believe that Balintawak as it was taught to Remy by his three instructors, including Anciong Bacon, influenced Modern Arnis.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich Curren *



I'd have to agree with that.  I've seen GM Bobby Taboada and have been with Remy Presas since 1980 til his passing.  Although the two have some similarities, from what I have seen of GM Taboada's art and movement, it didn't have any significant impact on Modern Arnis that I've seen.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## loki09789

I have to agree with Rich Curren about the influence of GM Bobby's Bk.  The only reason I can say that is because he (Rich) was the one who told me that he remembered Bobby at Remy seminars working quietly in the background.  Bobby looked up to Remy as a Godparent (literally) and they did share Bk instructors from what I can remember GM Bobby explaining.  I could remember wrong, but Rich's comments are sparking memories.

Interestingly, I was reading on a Balintawak International website that there are other names in the Bk lineage before Bacon, which makes sense.  One of the names was a family of men named Sevreedo (Sp?) one of which named Doce Pares in honor of the Frenchman who taught him euro-fencing style while they were in prison together.  At the first Balitawak Seminar I went to I mentioned to GM Bobby that I saw STRONG similiarities between my euro-fencing training and the Bk training.  It was more than just the biomechanical stuff that a conceptual understanding would explain away.  Bobby didn't really know what to say, so I just chalked it up to great minds thinking alike and stuff.  I was on a logical track though... for once.

So, I guess the euro-fencing/western boxing influence on Doce Pares led to the innovations that Bk inherited and built on, which was changed because of the Shotokan stuff that Remy included in MA... and here we are.  I don't think there is a single art that exists in a vacuum

Paul Martin


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## Cruentus

Check out this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...&perpage=15&highlight=Balintawak&pagenumber=4

On page 4 of this thread, Rich Parsons explains a little about the Saavadre Brothers Connection.

Anciong Bacon created Balintawak, so the linage starts with him. Just the same as Professor created Modern Arnis, starting the linage with Professor, but there were other instructors and styles that influenced this creation.

The basic story about the Saavadre conection goes as follows: 

Anciong as well as the Canetes learned from the Saavadre brothers who tought their family style, which was a stick and dagger system. Anciong was a small, firery little guy; so when people would tick him off he would stab them pretty hard with his sharpened wooden dagger. So the Saavadres took his dagger away. Thus, Anciong had to perfect his skills w/o the use of the dagger. He found that the live hand was a very useful tool, so he grew to prefer this over the use of the dagger with the stick.

After WWII, the Saavadres had both been killed, so the remaining eskrimadors tried to revive the Labanong (sp?) fencing club and Doce' Pares Group. Due to Political conflicts, Anciong broke away from the Doce' Pares to start his own club, where people faught mainly with the stick, as opposed to both stick and dagger. The club was located in the watch repair shop off Balintawak Street, and became known as "the self defense club off Balintawak Street," which was eventually just called as "Balintawak Self Defense club," finally coining the term "Balintawak" as the name of the fighting style. To this day, the Doce' Pares still focus on Stick and dagger, while Balintawak focuses on just stick.

Point is, Prior to Anciong, there was no "Balintawak." Anciong had instructors, of course, influencing his developement, and the Saavadre Brothers were his 2 main instructors, thus explaining why they would be included in the linage.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I hear many of you commenting about Balintawak all of a sudden. My question is how many of you have ACTUALLY trained in the art enough to claim they to know what they are talking about?

:asian:


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## lhommedieu

> Anciong Bacon created Balintawak, so the linage starts with him. Just the same as Professor created Modern Arnis, starting the linage with Professor, but there were other instructors and styles that influenced this creation.
> 
> The basic story about the Saavadre conection goes as follows:
> 
> Anciong as well as the Canetes learned from the Saavadre brothers who tought their family style, which was a stick and dagger system. Anciong was a small, firery little guy; so when people would tick him off he would stab them pretty hard with his sharpened wooden dagger. So the Saavadres took his dagger away. Thus, Anciong had to perfect his skills w/o the use of the dagger. He found that the live hand was a very useful tool, so he grew to prefer this over the use of the dagger with the stick.
> 
> After WWII, the Saavadres had both been killed, so the remaining eskrimadors tried to revive the Labanong (sp?) fencing club and Doce' Pares Group. Due to Political conflicts, Anciong broke away from the Doce' Pares to start his own club, where people faught mainly with the stick, as opposed to both stick and dagger. The club was located in the watch repair shop off Balintawak Street, and became known as "the self defense club off Balintawak Street," which was eventually just called as "Balintawak Self Defense club," finally coining the term "Balintawak" as the name of the fighting style. To this day, the Doce' Pares still focus on Stick and dagger, while Balintawak focuses on just stick.
> 
> Point is, Prior to Anciong, there was no "Balintawak." Anciong had instructors, of course, influencing his developement, and the Saavadre Brothers were his 2 main instructors, thus explaining why they would be included in the linage.



See also:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm

I believe that Bacon and Momoy were training partners during their years with the Saavedras.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Rocky

First you have to understand the 3 basic types of Balintawak, 1st the Original Bacon's Method or as some call it the Ungrouped version. Then there is the Modified ( but still ungrouped version) This is what Remy learned under Moncol, and Temor, I personally like Moncols a little better, less movement more direct. Then there is the  Newest type, the Grouped version, geared more towards teaching more than one person at a time, this is GM Vilison's (sp), Gm Valez, Super Kuentada and various other methods. Now the last one I mentioned the Grouped version has many off shoots, like GM Tabaoda who learned mostly the grouped version, but also from others, not to mention his real life street fights and what not, so he added all his experience into his own Grouped version. Cuentada De Mano ( my art ) could also be considered an off shoot of both the grouped and un grouped versions.

Modern Arnis, gets its liniar movements from Balintawak, both Original and Modified, but not the Grouped version. The grouped versions are just a natural progression of all combat arts. Ok boys and girls can anyone guess why Remy studied the Modified version and why it was so important to his training, and no its not just because one of the instructors was left handed like him???????????

I have never studied the Grouped versions of Balintawak yet I make the statement that my Cuentada De Mano, shares a liniage or can be considered an off shoot of the Grouped versions, I know you are probably saying Rocky are you nuts!!!. Knope!!!! just a little punchy. 

 You see basically the grouped versions are just teaching methods that vary from that of the classical mess as Bruce Lee would say. You see in the more traditional arts that have no set patterens to their teaching it would take you a life time to go from white belt to blackbelt if you could only train once or twice a week in a class room setting , you could do it faster if you trained privately, but not as many people could progress at the art as the qualified instructors only have so much time. So many of the tradional students like myself, and many of the old timers back in Cebu, noticed that whenever you trained with your Master that certain movements pop up over and over. WOW I THINK I JUST HEARD ALL OF GM BUOT"S STUDENTS THINKING LIGHTS POP ON!!! Well guess what some of us said hey! I could take these 4, 5 , or 10 moves that seem to come up all the time and make a drill out of them to teach the masses. BINGO Group Balintwak ( are you writing this down ) . Now some of the old timers went on and continued calling it Balintawak, which is their right, but not something I would do. So when I was putting together my art, which is heavily influenced by both Modified and traditional Balintawak, along with Pekiti, Katch fighting and Ukrainian wrestling, I chose to us a name that would not take any glory or somehow disrespect my Masters in Balintawak ( Buot & Presas) 

 Grouped Balintawak is pretty much how all martial arts evolved. Back many many moons ago, even before Master Andersons time not to much further back!!!  there was this hunter/gatherer, we'll call him (Dan) and everytime he would get a hand full of nuts or berries, someone, we'll call him (Rich) would take them away, so he went back to his dad and said "Ugh everytime I find em berries Rich hits me in the face and takes them Ugh. So the father we'll call him (Jim) said "UGH next time you gettem berries and he tries to hit you, you put hand up like this and stop him then you kick him in the Weenie!! UgH!! So next time Rich trys to take Dan's berries thats exacticaly what Dan does. But!!! The next time Dan tries to protect himself, Rich blocks the kick to the Weenie and punches Dan in the upper epiglotis  So Dan goes back and says "Ugh dad it didn't work, so he and his dad worked out a solution to the counter that Rich had learned to Dans counter and Bam!! martial arts was born!!! Then came contracts and belts the end!!

Here endith the lesson!!!

By the way this will be covered more in depth in the first chapeter of my book due out in the spring " The fundimentals of Classical Balintawak"




Rocky


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## Cruentus

Nice explaination of the ungrouped, modified, and grouped Balintawak methods.


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## Rocky

The ever graceful Renegade Wrote:




> I hear many of you commenting about Balintawak all of a sudden. My question is how many of you have ACTUALLY trained in the art enough to claim they to know what they are talking about?




Ditto!!! 


Welcome to my world!


Rocky


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## Rocky

Steve Wrote:



> believe that Bacon and Momoy were training partners during their years with the Saavedras.




Yepper Momoy and Yolang (sp)


Thats why I feel my only logical next step is to train in San Magel.
As soon as my health issues are taken care of.


You can never truely understand an art unless you understand its liniage or roots, I know Anciong was taought differantly than the Canette's but I there still has to be some reminances of his early training. Just as Modern Arnis gets its upper body movement and block and lock from Moncols Balintawak and its liniar lower body movement from Original Balintawak.


Rocky


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## pesilat

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *I hear many of you commenting about Balintawak all of a sudden. My question is how many of you have ACTUALLY trained in the art enough to claim they to know what they are talking about?
> 
> :asian: *



While I know this wasn't directed at me (since I almost never talk about Balintawak), I'll just take the opportunity to state my Balintawak background for future reference. The only Balintawak I've been exposed to, thus far, is GM Bobby Taboada's "grouped" version. I've been training in it (though obviously not exclusively) since 1995.

Since I only speak up when (a) I feel I can honestly contribute or (b) my opinion is directly asked, I almost never talk about Balintawak and when I do, I try to be very specific about what perspective I'm speaking from 

That aside, I'm curious about the answer to your question, too, Tim. I travel quite a bit and can count on one hand the number of Balintawak players (of any lineage) that I've encountered around the country. Even counting the people (like you and Rocky and some others) that I know online, I'd be hardpressed to come up with 2 handfuls.

Oh well  Not sure why I felt compelled to toss my 1.5 cents in here, but there they are.

BTW ... nice to see you here, Rocky 

Mike


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## lhommedieu

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *
> You can never truely understand an art unless you understand its liniage or roots, I know Anciong was taought differantly than the Canette's but I there still has to be some reminances of his early training.  *



Rocky,

You're welcome any time.  Personally, I've always been interested in _Bacon's_ method of eskrima, for the same reasons.  Although it could be argued that Canete and Bacon went in opposite directions (Momoy concentrated on espada y daga, while Bacon developed a single stick art), I suspect that both arts still carry the imprint of the Saavedra family method, and are thus complementary in some way.  So little has been published about the Saavedras of which I am aware - I keep hoping that some day, someone (in the Cebu community?) will write their story.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *While I know this wasn't directed at me (since I almost never talk about Balintawak), I'll just take the opportunity to state my Balintawak background for future reference. The only Balintawak I've been exposed to, thus far, is GM Bobby Taboada's "grouped" version. I've been training in it (though obviously not exclusively) since 1995.
> 
> Since I only speak up when (a) I feel I can honestly contribute or (b) my opinion is directly asked, I almost never talk about Balintawak and when I do, I try to be very specific about what perspective I'm speaking from
> 
> That aside, I'm curious about the answer to your question, too, Tim. I travel quite a bit and can count on one hand the number of Balintawak players (of any lineage) that I've encountered around the country. Even counting the people (like you and Rocky and some others) that I know online, I'd be hardpressed to come up with 2 handfuls.
> *



You're right this was not directed at you, but your responce is appreciated.:asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

For the record this is my training backgroung in Balintawak.



> My fisrt year I would get up once a month at 5:15am and drive to Detroit and arrive at 10:00 am for my morning class which would last till noon. I would take a 2 hour lunch and do my second class from 2:00 pm till 4:00 pm. Then I would drive back to Buffalo and would arrive home between 10pm - midnight based on how many stops I did.
> 
> My second year I would get up once a month at 5:15am and drive to Detroit and arrive at 10:00 am for my morning class which would last till noon. I would take a 2 hour lunch and do my second class from 2:00 pm till 3:00 pm. Then I would drive back to Buffalo and would arrive home between 10pm - midnight based on how many stops I did.
> 
> My third year I would get up once a month at 6:00am and drive to Detroit and arrive at 11:00 am for my morning class which would last till 1:00pm. Then I would drive back to Buffalo and would arrive home between 8pm - 11pm based on how many stops I did.
> 
> A lot of hassle, but well worth the investment in time.



I'm in my 4th year of training and going strong!


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## Datu Tim Hartman

BTW All classes are with GM Buot himself.:asian:


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *
> Although it could be argued that Canete and Bacon went in opposite directions (Momoy concentrated on espada y daga, while Bacon developed a single stick art), I suspect that both arts still carry the imprint of the Saavedra family method, and are thus complementary in some way.  So little has been published about the Saavedras of which I am aware - I keep hoping that some day, someone (in the Cebu community?) will write their story.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Steve Lamade *



Nice post and I fully agree!


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## Emptyglass

Hi Tim:

Aside from a few seminars with GM Taboada and/or his students over the years, my Balintiwak instruction comes from my current instructor Guro Bobby Ladra here in Baltimore.

We have a small group (4-6 people) and you can check it out here:

http://balintawakseminars.5u.com/

We're small but we train quite a bit for people with day jobs (4-5 days a week, 2-5 hours a night). We actually hosted GM Taboada here recently and Chad Dulin was there at that seminar.

I've also done some investigation and observation on my own. I'm still just a beginner (in my eyes) so my opinions are based upon my current experience. As I gain more knowledge over time I will have that much more information to draw from.

However, my opinions (regardless of what anyone thinks of them) are my own and will remain as they currently are until I see reason to modify them due to new or better information.

Thanks,

Rich Curren 



> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *I hear many of you commenting about Balintawak all of a sudden. My question is how many of you have ACTUALLY trained in the art enough to claim they to know what they are talking about?
> 
> :asian: *


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## Emptyglass

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *
> 
> By the way this will be covered more in depth in the first chapeter of my book due out in the spring " The fundimentals of Classical Balintawak"
> 
> Rocky *




Rocky:

Looking forward to reading that one. Please keep me informed where and how that will be available.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


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## Cruentus

I train M/ GM Ted Buot.

How, much...?

Enough to offer my opinion on the subject, I'd say!


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## pesilat

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *You can never truely understand an art unless you understand its liniage or roots, I know Anciong was taought differantly than the Canette's but I there still has to be some reminances of his early training. Just as Modern Arnis gets its upper body movement and block and lock from Moncols Balintawak and its liniar lower body movement from Original Balintawak.*



Yup. I definitely see commonalities between what I've seen of Doce Pares (traditional and Eskrido) and what I've seen of Balintawak. There are plenty of differences, too, of course. The divergent developments are evident. But the common roots are evident. And also evident in the very small bit of Modern Arnis that I've been exposed to.

Mike


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## DoxN4cer

According to some research I did in the PI, there's a lot more to the the roots of Balintawak than the Savedras and the Doce Pares Society. Have any of you guys that train with Mr. Buot heard of Anciong Bacon's exploits with the natives in Suirgao? 

Tim Kashino


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *According to some research I did in the PI, there's a lot more to the the roots of Balintawak than the Savedras and the Doce Pares Society. Have any of you guys that train with Mr. Buot heard of Anciong Bacon's exploits with the natives in Suirgao?
> 
> Tim Kashino *



I don't think I have. Could you explain in greater detail?


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *According to some research I did in the PI, there's a lot more to the the roots of Balintawak than the Savedras and the Doce Pares Society. Have any of you guys that train with Mr. Buot heard of Anciong Bacon's exploits with the natives in Suirgao?
> 
> Tim Kashino *



The Questions was ask this evening. Manong Ted will ask his brother in law ElToro, who traveled much with GM Anciong Bacon.

:asian:


(* Toasty called me on this. Manong Arturo is the real name for the Brother in Law of Manong Ted Buot. I just called him El Toro, for that is what the name reminds me of. It was a slip and not meant in any other way then as Nice Nick Name. *)


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## Cruentus

Cool...Maybe I'll get the scoop from him this weekend!


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## loki09789

I think there is a lack of recognition for the western influence on filipino arts.  I know that Filipinos have indiginous  arts and such but most of the arts that we are generally exposed to in Balitawak/Modern Arnis have had some form of western influence/exchange.  GM Bobby was a boxer, as are many of the FMA masters that we tend to know about.  Some of them have also been involved in trad arts as well.

The western arts have had an influence at least because of circumstance.  Spanish/American culture includes martial arts and have been present in the Philipines for a long time.  The idea that Doce Pares may have been named in honor of a French fencer and his influence on one of the Saavrado (Sp?) members.  And at the very least, the amount of banging that happens between PI natives and incoming cultures (Dutch, Spanish, American, Chinese...) must have forced some adaptations because of the body and movement differences.  

I love FMA, but I don't have any doubt about the richness of Western Martial arts and their role on the global martial arts evolution.  Sailors, Soldiers, Merchants... they have all influenced the cultures they touched for good or bad.  As a dominate culture as well, western empirialism/colonialism hinted (none too subtley) that legitimacy and social progress depended on the locals becoming more "western" because it was superior in everyway (idea of the time, not my opinion).

I still think that FMA, and arts that have come through the Hawaiian Islands are VERY influenced by western martial arts and that it needs to be recognized along with the indiginous influence.  Taking the occasional boxing, wresting class might be as effective as taking some other arts.

Paul Martin


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## Cruentus

I agree that there was some western Influence. Both Bacon and Buot Boxed. Sometimes when doing Balintawak, I feel like I am basically boxing with a stick!

However, I think there is a lot of misinformation out there, and I feel that I should mention it within the context of this thread. People talk and create rumors, and stuff ends up on the internet, in articles, and in books. Just because something is in print, that doesn't make it accurate. It is very difficult for most American Balintawak people to get history when for many their training comes from seminars, video's, books, and other secondary sources. We had/have this same problem with Modern Arnis.

The other problem we have regarding misinformation is that Anciong Delegated only one person to teach in the school, and that person was Ted Buot. All the rest of the instructors out there taught outside of the school creating different competitive factions. This created a lot of outside competition under the same "Balintawak" umbrella. So, each master is going to have a different story to tell, and a different truth, with each "truth" supporting their agenda. Plus, many of the masters who are around now a days weren't innitially taught by Anciong; they were taught by Villisan, or Atillio, or Lopez, or whomever first. This is not to fault them, but it is just that information can get accidently misrepresented when this is the case.

So, I tend to take all the info I hear with a grain of salt. Although I am not trying to say I am better skill-wise then many of the masters who are out there teaching Balintawak, but I can say that I am often closer in generation to Anciong then they are. So, if I hear something, I ask Manong Ted. He will tell me what I need to know cause he was THERE. And...if he wasn't, he has family and contacts who he know's were there, and he can get the correct info.


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *I think there is a lack of recognition for the western influence on filipino arts.  I know that Filipinos have indiginous  arts and such but most of the arts that we are generally exposed to in Balitawak/Modern Arnis have had some form of western influence/exchange.  GM Bobby was a boxer, as are many of the FMA masters that we tend to know about.  Some of them have also been involved in trad arts as well.
> *



Popular or not I am confused.

I thought Boxing and/or Western Boxing was influenced by the boxing from the Phillipines, before this, boxing was palm up fist fighting. The Filipino's added in some good footwork and body angling that influenced the US Military and their boxing teams, which influenced the rest of the Western Boxing. Or atl east this is how I understood it.  

As to the Traditional Arts, No one will deny that Remy Presas trained in and held rank in Shoto Kan Karate and Judo. Nor do I deny influence into Modern Arnis from Wally Jay and SCJJ.

I am confused as too what your point was. If just to comment that everything is influenced by everything, then sure I get it, yet?



> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *The western arts have had an influence at least because of circumstance.  Spanish/American culture includes martial arts and have been present in the Philipines for a long time.  The idea that Doce Pares may have been named in honor of a French fencer and his influence on one of the Saavrado (Sp?) members.  And at the very least, the amount of banging that happens between PI natives and incoming cultures (Dutch, Spanish, American, Chinese...) must have forced some adaptations because of the body and movement differences.
> *



Yes the western arts have had influence everywhere just as I am sure the eastern arts have influenced. No where in the history I learned about Modern Arnis was there this exclusion of other arts. Matter of fact, what I learned was that it was based upon multiple techniques from different arts and GM Presas' teaching style and methods.

So, if you point is that the Saavedra Brothers influenced much of the Martial Arts from Cebu City and the surrounding area. I agree. The PI was constantly under attack through its' complete history and many of the islands were taken by one culture yet others were taken by other cultures. Even Spanish, US and Japanese could say they controlled every inch of every island.

The Doces Pares could also have been named because the name is cool or because it was for the acceptance of the general people and the ruling class? Why do you not Ask? I know Manong Ted Buot is not strong on Doces Pares history. He knows much not everything. I would ask one of the last remaining Original Members (Canetes).

I always thought that is was accepted that FMA's from the PI had always adapted to what was thrown at them. What makes you think this will be unpopular?



> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *I love FMA, but I don't have any doubt about the richness of Western Martial arts and their role on the global martial arts evolution.  Sailors, Soldiers, Merchants... they have all influenced the cultures they touched for good or bad.  As a dominate culture as well, western empirialism/colonialism hinted (none too subtley) that legitimacy and social progress depended on the locals becoming more "western" because it was superior in everyway (idea of the time, not my opinion).
> *



So, to say that the locals of the PI absorbed what the Spanish and others had thrown or thrust upon them and made it their own, is a correct statement. I am still confused as to why this would be unpopular?  



> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *I still think that FMA, and arts that have come through the Hawaiian Islands are VERY influenced by western martial arts and that it needs to be recognized along with the indiginous influence.  Taking the occasional boxing, wresting class might be as effective as taking some other arts.
> 
> Paul Martin *



The influence of Hawai'i is well known yet did not effect all FMA's, for not all went through Hawai'i. Yes taking a Boxing and Wrestling class to round you out to understand motion is good. Yet I still am confused, as I stated above, I thought it was the Filipino Boxing that changed Western Boxing, to what it is today?


Oh Well


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## Toasty

Hello Mr. Kashino,

I have a few quick questions:
1)Are you sure you want to use the phrase "ALOT more to the roots of Balintawak"?
1b)if so, why hasn't anyone else ever written/said anything about these "exploits"?
2)What exploits are you talking about?
3)What and or who are your sources for research in the Phillipines?
4)Do you train in the Balintawak system?
4b)if so, with whom?

If you could answer these questions for me as well as explaining these "exploits" you've found out about I would greatly appreciate it as I am trying to catalog as much info as I can regarding FMA in the Cebu area (with the Balintawak system being the focus). 
You could do this in a private e-mail if you wish as well.

Thanks in advance
Rob


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## Cruentus

in reality, if we are talking about the influence of boxing, it was circular. I heard the same thing Rich had said. I understood that in Ancient times, boxing started in Greece, migrated accrossed contenents, eventually reaching PI. PI had developed their own boxing techniques from that point, as well as the west. Then, Western Soldiers integrated the Filipino boxing progression into their own. Then in Modern times, the "western boxing" now influenced by other cultures, was integrated further into PI culture. 

It seems when I really look at it, we're all one big family!


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Toasty _
> *Hello Mr. Kashino,
> 
> I have a few quick questions:
> 1)Are you sure you want to use the phrase "ALOT more to the roots of Balintawak"?
> 1b)if so, why hasn't anyone else ever written/said anything about these "exploits"?
> 2)What exploits are you talking about?
> 3)What and or who are your sources for research in the Phillipines?
> 4)Do you train in the Balintawak system?
> 4b)if so, with whom?
> 
> If you could answer these questions for me as well as explaining these "exploits" you've found out about I would greatly appreciate it as I am trying to catalog as much info as I can regarding FMA in the Cebu area (with the Balintawak system being the focus).
> You could do this in a private e-mail if you wish as well.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> Rob *



I am asking for the same info, if you wouldn't mind elaborating here.


----------



## Rocky

Rich Wrote:



> I thought Boxing and/or Western Boxing was influenced by the boxing from the Phillipines, before this, boxing was palm up fist fighting. The Filipino's added in some good footwork and body angling that influenced the US Military and their boxing teams, which influenced the rest of the Western Boxing. Or atl east this is how I understood it.



True, I think that they probably stole from each other, which is only human nature.


Paul Son Wrote:



> The other problem we have regarding misinformation is that Anciong Delegated only one person to teach in the school, and that person was Ted Buot. All the rest of the instructors out there taught outside of the school



Very true in fact, GM Buot has actually taught, some of the Balintawak Masters out there.

GM Presas, even acknowledge that, Ted was like a son to Great Grandmaster Bacon, GGM Bacon would often tell people when he would go from place to place to teach that, too learn from Ted was to learn from him, because Ted moved just like GGM Bacon. This is why when I teach Balintawak I strive to move, and teach to the best of my ability just like GM Buot, our liniage must be kept pure, there is very little honor or truth left in the Martial arts today, maybe we can at least keep Balintawak true to its founder and current leader and also keep it from being "Bastartdized".

As for the western Martial arts, Boxing or some form of it can be traced actually back to Mongolia, then through the Middle East, to Greece and Rome, to Europe, to England to America. 

 Now in America a new  American art was developed and then lost, by the Polish, Hungarian, English, Russian, and Ukrainian people, and that was Catch as Catch Can. In my opinion the most brutal and efficiant unarmed fighting ever developed, which is why it all but died. An art that has no belts ( or cash generating fashion  ensombiles) and that requires you to either beat your instructor or suffer a broken limb trying to beat him in order to reach the level of expert or "Hooker" is not an art that too many want to play with. Which is understandable you can't lie about your abilities and if a Martial artist can't lie about his abilities, then where would Modern day matial artist be.

 Here is a question to ponder, why do we even bother lerning martial arts when most of us suck at it!!! Think about it for a minute. Every Master I ever trained with says the same thing, "boy you should have seen my master, I couldn't even touch him I am not even in the same league as him, and some say his Master was even better.

 Now think about it!! someday you will probably be telling your students just how much better your Master was then you are. So that means that the last 4 or 5 generations have progressively gotten worst. Do you think a day will ever come when an instructor will just look at his student and say man I really suck at this and I wouldn't give a bucket of mule piss for your future Marial arts ability!!!

  I was just wondering my mind works a little different from time to time 
:rofl: 

Rocky ( Master of all who are willing to follow) Pasiwk


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

First of all, I have NO PROBLEM with GM Bobby nor does GM Buot. Last time I saw GM Bobby, he proposed that he and I do some joint seminars and camps together. During one of my recent classes with Manong Ted, Bobby called up just to shoot the bull. For the record there is no problem, nor am I trying to start one.



> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *I think there is a lack of recognition for the western influence on Filipino arts.  I know that Filipinos have indigenous arts and such but most of the arts that we are generally exposed to in Balintawak/Modern Arnis have had some form of western influence/exchange. GM Bobby was a boxer, as are many of the FMA masters that we tend to know about.  Some of them have also been involved in trad arts as well. *



I agree that there are western influences in many FMAs; this is why there is a European sword in the middle of the WMAA symbol. I dont feel that boxing influenced Anciongs style. I talked to Manong Ted last night and he informed me that Anciong didnt train in boxing. That being said GM Bobby is a 3rd generation student of Bacon. If someone other than Bacon (including Bobby) put in some boxing, then thats all right. Hell Bobby himself admitted to me that he added Sinawalis, Abaniquos, etc. for better marketing of his program.

 We must remember that Anciongs Balintawak is the original style and many others have hybrid programs. This is not saying one is better than the other. What I am saying is that some programs are closer to the original program than others.

:asian:


----------



## loki09789

The confusion seems to be because you aren't reading the post as it was written.

My point was the influence of western martial arts on the evolution of Balitawak, not the earliest history of western/eastern boxing. The lack of popularity is evident in how the boxing/western arts are trivialized in these discussions, not necessarily open hostility or rejection.  The idea was that the western arts tend to be neglected when it comes to 'going back to the roots' discussions.  I don't intend to say that there are any secrets of influences on MA or Balitawak, just that if the idea of higher level artists is to explore the roots of an art - or at least some of it's influences - then include the western arts.  Sometimes it feels like if it isn't an eastern art, it ain't Sh*&.

How many of us have studied western fencing, or taken a boxing or wrestling class, and see how it fits.    Even hockey, football, soccer... can teach us something about strategy and coordinated attack and defense, if we let it fit into our idea of adaptability.  The single and double leg take down or a basic hip check can be just as good as any FMA or trad art technique for real fighting.  Generals during WWII attributed their successes on the battlefield to the sport of football because it taught basic winning spirit and follow through in a team effort. 

As far as the older influences on boxing, it was more than palm up or palm down and foot work.  It was to concept of light vs. heavy.  The roots of modern western boxing stem back to armored combatants with shield and sword (picture the old bare knuckle pictures of the industrial age stuff and you will see the similiarity), thus the lack of dynamic footwork and body movement compared to PI styles.  The roots of PI or eastern boxing styles (chinese, mongolian, PI, Thai...) tend to be based on a light or no armor weapon history, thus the lightning footwork and slipperiness of the body motion. 

In general, and I know there are exceptions, the armor of the western cultures was made to protect the fighter against swords and blunt attacks as it's first job.  Thus, it is heavier and restricts some freedom of motion.  But, the armor of most eastern cultures was designed to protect the fighter against arrows and missile attacks primarily.  This allowed for more dynamic movement in comparison to the west.  

Based on these roots, the influences on boxing or fighting arts is more than hand position or footwork, it comes down to strategic mindset of the art and how the historical evolution either fits/adapts or doesn't.  Whoever did it, what ever the point in evolution you choose to pick, my point is it is all good if you can see the connections and the commonalities.  Then, find the ones that fit what you are doing to accomplish your goals.

Paul Martin


----------



## Cruentus

> I dont feel that boxing influenced Anciongs style. I talked to Manong Ted last night and he informed me that Anciong didnt train in boxing.



AH HA! see how it starts! I don't know why, or where I heard it, but I had thought Anciong boxed a little back in his younger days, thus I posted it on the web. It looks like my info was wrong, however. 

So easily can information get screwed up...:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *The confusion seems to be because you aren't reading the post as it was written.
> 
> My point was the influence of western martial arts on the evolution of Balitawak, not the earliest history of western/eastern boxing. The lack of popularity is evident in how the boxing/western arts are trivialized in these discussions, not necessarily open hostility or rejection.  The idea was that the western arts tend to be neglected when it comes to 'going back to the roots' discussions.  I don't intend to say that there are any secrets of influences on MA or Balitawak, just that if the idea of higher level artists is to explore the roots of an art - or at least some of it's influences - then include the western arts.  Sometimes it feels like if it isn't an eastern art, it ain't Sh*&.
> 
> How many of us have studied western fencing, or taken a boxing or wrestling class, and see how it fits.    Even hockey, football, soccer... can teach us something about strategy and coordinated attack and defense, if we let it fit into our idea of adaptability.  The single and double leg take down or a basic hip check can be just as good as any FMA or trad art technique for real fighting.  Generals during WWII attributed their successes on the battlefield to the sport of football because it taught basic winning spirit and follow through in a team effort.
> 
> As far as the older influences on boxing, it was more than palm up or palm down and foot work.  It was to concept of light vs. heavy.  The roots of modern western boxing stem back to armored combatants with shield and sword (picture the old bare knuckle pictures of the industrial age stuff and you will see the similiarity), thus the lack of dynamic footwork and body movement compared to PI styles.  The roots of PI or eastern boxing styles (chinese, mongolian, PI, Thai...) tend to be based on a light or no armor weapon history, thus the lightning footwork and slipperiness of the body motion.
> 
> In general, and I know there are exceptions, the armor of the western cultures was made to protect the fighter against swords and blunt attacks as it's first job.  Thus, it is heavier and restricts some freedom of motion.  But, the armor of most eastern cultures was designed to protect the fighter against arrows and missile attacks primarily.  This allowed for more dynamic movement in comparison to the west.
> 
> Based on these roots, the influences on boxing or fighting arts is more than hand position or footwork, it comes down to strategic mindset of the art and how the historical evolution either fits/adapts or doesn't.  Whoever did it, what ever the point in evolution you choose to pick, my point is it is all good if you can see the connections and the commonalities.  Then, find the ones that fit what you are doing to accomplish your goals.
> 
> Paul Martin *



Paul,

I am not a golden glove. Yet I have trained with Boxers and Wrestlers and fencers. I have played with live heavy blades and lighter blades, and enjoy the differences.

As to popularity, that is your opinion. Go search out some stuff that Gou Ronin and I discusses years ago about boxing. I agree that boxing is being tested everytime you get into the ring. Manong Ted Buot tests you every time you pick up the stick in a lesson with him.

I have played group sports including paint ball, tactics about using pinch points to have one or two people hold off a large force. To be able to use speed and stealth of one person to infiltrate the enemy line. And also the mind set that if *I* do this I will be out, yet the team has a much better chance of success. The idea of something greater than yourself.

As to Armor, the full body heavy armor in the *West* did not stick around for an extended period. Maybe just maybe the *East* through the Spanish/Italians/Portuguese and French decided that speed and agility were better, and once you got the turtle on his back or held you could thrust and still kill the armored person. Hence the use of padded or leather armor and lighter blades. Now who influenced who? Was it the East to the West? Could it have been both ways? OR was it West to East? 

I still do not see your point about popularity. You make the innuendo and Tim comes out states that I and others do not have an open mind. Yet, I keep replying and referencing older posts, that state otherwise. You lead was like that everyone was going to disagree with you and you had some superior information. When it seems that almost everyone agrees that there was influence in both directions, and understanding these things is good. You say we ignore the Boxing portion, then go create a boxing thread and see if you can some responses and see if it is ignored. 

Like I asked Tim for peace, and to stop assuming I am assuming somethign about him. I will ask you, and extended it to everyone else as well, please do not assume about me and I will not assume back. Do not put words into my mouth, I can and will state my mind as I see it or know it. Yet, I realize that Listening is the second half and most important half to Conversation and Dialogue as opposed to Monolgue. 

What I have found through my life is the following:

When people argue from a point of weakness, they yell and ignore the other person.

When people make an insult this the insult they hate the most to be called.

When people make an innuedo, they are trying to cover their own short comings or failings.

Now as I and most of those that have been around for length of time online have posted, that you cannot see or feel the tone, or body language therefore it is hard to read text only. So, to avoid issue or problems I do not assume anything from a single post. If I see a series of posts, then I come out and ask. Not thinned skinned, just trying to clear up something I do not understand.

I apologize if I have misunderstood you. This is how I am reading it. You have a point to be made, and you want disagreement.

On my Phone Call with Panung Guro Tom Bolden, I believe he wanted me to call him to correct somethings I had said on line. Other then Toboada's Balintawak, which  I thougt you or Curren had used first, I could be wrong, to be corrected to Balintawak Cuentada Escrima. As the Web Site states Balintawak Escrima Cuentada, I will make the asssumption that this was the intent by Mr. Bolden. As to the rest of the discussion, Maybe you guy should call him yourself and see what he had to say about influences. The reason I brign this up, and that Tom and I talked and listened to each other. We had a dialogue and conversation.

I am trying here, to understand why you say it is unpopular? I know many of us have investigated fencing and/or wrestling and/or boxing.  I have no problems investigating roots. Heck I have been known to pick up a rock and use it as a tool as well. Talk about roots


----------



## DoxN4cer

Hi Guys, 
      Well compared to you guys, my exposure to Balintawak is sporadic and minimal, but enough to draw some basic comparisons. Perhaps "a lot more" concerning the roots of Balintawak was a not a prudent choice of syntax. I'm often limited on time that I can spend frivolously in front of a computer. 

      Back to Surigao... I don't know the reliability of this information, but prior to WWII, GM Bacon used to trade with a group of natives in Surigao (perhaps the fire walkers) that had a stickfighting method and their warriors were reportedly very fast and very skilled. It is speculated he had learned their system (agak style?) prior to the creation of the Balnitawak club. Does anybody have any further information on the subject? 

I'll be back in a couple of weeks.

Tim Kashino


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *According to some research I did in the PI, there's a lot more to the the roots of Balintawak than the Savedras and the Doce Pares Society. Have any of you guys that train with Mr. Buot heard of Anciong Bacon's exploits with the natives in Suirgao?
> 
> Tim Kashino *




Tim K,

For me to have any chance at all to know what the heck you are talking about to get anyone to look it up I ned to know exactly what you are talking about.

First is it the Natives of *Suirgao*? or *Surigao* as you queted in the second post on this. If you could quote your source, it might help in finding someone to validate or invalidate.

What base near Cebu did you work at? OR was it just the Docks along the coast?

I think it would be interesting to learn more, in particular if you have some place I could ask questions or do research other than the one living person I know who was there. There are others, still alive, I just do not talk to them on a weekly or daily basis.

Help us out, tell us the story of where you heard this? Spread the knowledge. Share the wealth.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Links I have found on Surigao PI

Surigao PI and here as well on the same site Same Site

Here is a  Site that discusses Surfing, yet also discusses the location of Surigao.


And here is a list of Japanese Ships sunk in Surigao Sea

A cross listed PI site of the first Site

Here is an Introduction Site that references Surigao

Here is a cool Diary


There are lots and lots more sites, so thanks Tim K, I have learned even more today.

I still hope to get some information on this.

:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

Links I have found for Surigao eskrima

The Origins of Eskrima By: Dr. Ned Nepangue

Here is a discussion on this article

Cyber Pinoys

A nice local site


This site  has information on populations of cities in the PI.

:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

A single link I found using: Surigao escrima

Has Balintawak reference with one of the assistant instructors is from Surigao Del Sur, Mindinao


----------



## DoxN4cer

OK, last post before I take off for a while. 

While on my first trip to the PI, I came across some old fellas (who claimed to be students at the Labanong Fencing Club circa 1933) on a ferry from Iloilo to Cebu that related a few of stories to me regarding the Saavedras, Doce Pares and Anciong Bacon. I have no idea if any of it was true, but the bit about Bacon learning from the natives in Surigao was interesting, and quite believable. According to them Bacon brought a great deal of this system with him into the Labanong Fencing Club as well as his development of Balintawak. Can anybody lend any credibilty to the story, or was it just two old guys spinning yarns? 


Tim Kashino


----------



## Cruentus

Dude, there is one thing that is cool about your job. You get to hang out at docks in places like the PI, and shoot the S**t with old guys about Eskrima! Way cool!

I think this can be easily verified by the info that Manong Ted comes up with. I'll see him tomorrow, and I'll ask myself. If it is true, Bacon would have relayed this to some of his peers and students, so it should be somewhat verifiable. I think Rich already posed the question to him on Tuesday, so by the time you come back one of us will have an answer to clear it all up.

So, the solution is simple; we should have verification soon!

Have a good few weeks.

:tank:


----------



## DoxN4cer

The trip was before I was in the Navy, I was there specifically to dig for infomation and training. But yes, I have had many opportunities to meet and train with some really great people (on and off the clock), some of which went right back to their humble way of life after their experiences in WWII. Back then the FMA still carried a stigma in many areas, and they chose not to display their methods to the public. These men are a rare breed and are quickly disappearing. My experiences with them are something that I will treasure for the rest of my life.

Tim Kashino


----------



## Toasty

Hello again Mr. Kashino,
Thanks for the reply. 
This has been a problem for me doing research as well, it becomes alot of "he said" or "I heard" stories that are next-to impossible to verify. The only way I have figured out how to "verify" the truthfulness and accuracy is if i can get the same (or similar versions) story from a few different (and diverse if possible) sources.
So anyway, thanks for that one aspect anyway, it sends me on yet another detective mission  

be well
Rob


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *Hi Guys,
> Well compared to you guys, my exposure to Balintawak is sporadic and minimal, but enough to draw some basic comparisons. Perhaps "a lot more" concerning the roots of Balintawak was a not a prudent choice of syntax. I'm often limited on time that I can spend frivolously in front of a computer.
> *



Tim, Tim, Tim, I am really disappointed. Frivolously in front of a computer. Today I am home sick from work, so as to not spread what Ihave around the office. I have a work cell phone and can login and get e-mail. Yet, now all can be done, from home, so I am here reading and learning. I would much prefer to learn at the end of a stick. The next time we meet maybe you might be up for it? Maybe then your time would be not so Frivolous .

I am not the most knowledgable about Balintawak or any art from the PI let alone any art all. I try to have an open mind and learn. Yet you my friend have this attitude that no one can have an open mind or learn except you. You present it like I (Tim K) have a secret, and you(everyone else) know(s) nothing of it.

You my friend have been all over the internet since Late June and Early July, on multiple sites asking the same questions, or similar questions. Nice to see you are interested. Yet is this Frivolous time as well? Yes, some people enjoy their time online. Some people enjoy their training on the matts or in the basement or on teh streets or docks. Just because my choice(s) earlier in life have put me in a position to have a carear that allows me time to train with a GM weekly (* And to afford the cash and time *) and to spend time online as well. Be Jealous, if you must. Please desist with your petty attempts at humor or insults. For you see, you get my responses above . 



> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *     Back to Surigao... I don't know the reliability of this information, but prior to WWII, GM Bacon used to trade with a group of natives in Surigao (perhaps the fire walkers) that had a stickfighting method and their warriors were reportedly very fast and very skilled. It is speculated he had learned their system (agak style?) prior to the creation of the Balnitawak club. Does anybody have any further information on the subject?
> 
> I'll be back in a couple of weeks.
> 
> Tim Kashino *



Like I said earlier, I would like to know this information as well. Now depending upon who you talk to Even Anciong Bacon was not an original member of the Labanong Fencing Club. Just check the offical sites of the Doces Pares. So, all information I would hold in suspect and weigh it as more data came in.

Yet, a nice topic to discuss, I just wish it was so Frivolous a discussion about the roots of Balintwak which you (Tim K), Paul M, and Rich C all seem very willing to discuss and spout information.

So, when you get back and have a chance to read this. Let me know if you have had luck with your additional sources. You should contact Bobby Toboada himself and see what stories her has? As you guys seem to have the knowledge and information about Balintwak Eskrima Cuentada as taught by Bobby Toboada.

Maybe just maybe you can spend some frivolous time and reply back.

:asian:


----------



## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *Here is a question to ponder, why do we even bother lerning martial arts when most of us suck at it!!! Think about it for a minute. Every Master I ever trained with says the same thing, "boy you should have seen my master, I couldn't even touch him I am not even in the same league as him, and some say his Master was even better.
> 
> Now think about it!! someday you will probably be telling your students just how much better your Master was then you are. So that means that the last 4 or 5 generations have progressively gotten worst.
> 
> Rocky ( Master of all who are willing to follow) Pasiwk *



Wellllllllllll, not necessarily.  We remember our masters as being better than we were but in all honesty, that's when they _were_ better than we were.  Unfortunately, as we get better down the years there is someone who could objectively say, "Hey, you passed up your instructor.  Good for you." because by that time he's dead and can't stll you $h!t.  Plus, it's not considered good manners to even think out loud that you might be approaching your teacher's skill but it happens all the time.  I see the difference between karate int he 1960's when I started and now and the abilities of most practitioners now leave the others in the dust.  That's progress, folks and that happens in FMA, I'll bet, as well.

Yours,
Dan "Soon to be stoned for blasphemy" Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Today I am home sick from work, so as to not spread what Ihave around the office. :asian: *



  Rich,
Sorry to hear that.  Lots of rest and liquids!

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *  Rich,
> Sorry to hear that.  Lots of rest and liquids!
> 
> Yours,
> Dan *



Oj, and then CranApple, and then Water and then Mile with the Cereal, and oh yeah the Vitamins and cold pills.

So, I try, I try, and thanks for the kinds words and well wishes

:asian:


----------



## loki09789

Rich,

Please don't try and profile or dissect my motives and meaning behind my postings.  I am not inferring any lack in you or any particular individual or groups.  We can discuss topic all day long without this conjecture.  That's how all the bs starts.

My intent is to state an opinion about a trend I have noticed since I have been actively reading here.  I know that Tim H. has done well in SCA fencing and participated in other parallel martial training, as have other members here.  I am not claiming to have the keys to the kingdom.  I fear that since we are so close to the parallel topics of contact sports, boxing... culturally that we don't really spend alot of time thinking about their value. I was hoping to get some feedback about how FMA concepts have specifically allowed other techniques/arts to fit into their system.  As you and others have said before, this is concept and evolution. 

I hope that other readers will share their knowledge of western influences on FMA or martial practice in general.  I see the progression of mastery starting with techniques, moving to tactics and topping off at strategic mastery.  This may look different for each of us, and that's good.

As far as the western/eastern influence on military/combative stuff:  The Muslim (Ottoman?) empire spread all the way into France so I agree that eastern influences are possible in the areas of technology, science and medicine primarily.

Armor, though, got lighter and moved away from metal because of the introduction of firearms moreso than europeans adopting an eastern doctrine of warfare.  No point in wearing tons of metal if a bullet or cannon shot can go right through anyway.  Swords, and pikes evolve into bayonets and so on.

I hope we can discuss these topics well.  I forgot about the Muslim thing until you posed the idea of eastern influence.

Paul Martin


----------



## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Wellllllllllll, not necessarily.  We remember our masters as being better than we were but in all honesty, that's when they were better than we were.  Unfortunately, as we get better down the years there is someone who could objectively say, "Hey, you passed up your instructor.  Good for you." because by that time he's dead and can't stll you $h!t.  Plus, it's not considered good manners to even think out loud that you might be approaching your teacher's skill but it happens all the time.  I see the difference between karate int he 1960's when I started and now and the abilities of most practitioners now leave the others in the dust.  That's progress, folks and that happens in FMA, I'll bet, as well.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan "Soon to be stoned for blasphemy" Anderson *



How dare you! :soapbox: 

LOL just kidding. Actually if I am "smellin what the Rock was cookin'" appropriately here, I think he ment it as more of a rhetorical question to get us to think about a very good point. Why do we deitise our instructors, and put them on a God-like pedistal, honestly believing that we will never achieve the skill that they have had? They were humans just like us, so to think we can't achieve their skill or better is selling ourselves short in my opinion.

I know this, I know you know this, and I know Rocky knows this (which is why I felt comfortable enough to interpret, or misinterpret if that was the case, his post), but what about everyone else?

I think the key to achieving greatness, however, lies not in thinking that we are great, or even 'almost great'. I think it lies in this wonderful little Michalangelo quote (from when he was about 70 yrs of age) pertaining to a question regarding his art, "I'm still learning."

:asian:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Rich,
> 
> Please don't try and profile or dissect my motives and meaning behind my postings.  I am not inferring any lack in you or any particular individual or groups.  We can discuss topic all day long without this conjecture.  That's how all the bs starts.
> 
> My intent is to state an opinion about a trend I have noticed since I have been actively reading here.  I know that Tim H. has done well in SCA fencing and participated in other parallel martial training, as have other members here.  I am not claiming to have the keys to the kingdom.  I fear that since we are so close to the parallel topics of contact sports, boxing... culturally that we don't really spend alot of time thinking about their value. I was hoping to get some feedback about how FMA concepts have specifically allowed other techniques/arts to fit into their system.  As you and others have said before, this is concept and evolution.
> 
> I hope that other readers will share their knowledge of western influences on FMA or martial practice in general.  I see the progression of mastery starting with techniques, moving to tactics and topping off at strategic mastery.  This may look different for each of us, and that's good.
> 
> As far as the western/eastern influence on military/combative stuff:  The Muslim (Ottoman?) empire spread all the way into France so I agree that eastern influences are possible in the areas of technology, science and medicine primarily.
> 
> Armor, though, got lighter and moved away from metal because of the introduction of firearms moreso than europeans adopting an eastern doctrine of warfare.  No point in wearing tons of metal if a bullet or cannon shot can go right through anyway.  Swords, and pikes evolve into bayonets and so on.
> 
> I hope we can discuss these topics well.  I forgot about the Muslim thing until you posed the idea of eastern influence.
> 
> Paul Martin *




Maybe this thread needs to be split again.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Rich,
> 
> Please don't try and profile or dissect my motives and meaning behind my postings.  I am not inferring any lack in you or any particular individual or groups.  We can discuss topic all day long without this conjecture.  That's how all the bs starts.
> *



Paul M,

Then let your friends and yourself keep the BS and conjecture out of ti as well. Choose your words a little bit better, and maybe it will not go down this track. Just a thought. (* See Below also *)




> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *My intent is to state an opinion about a trend I have noticed since I have been actively reading here.  I know that Tim H. has done well in SCA fencing and participated in other parallel martial training, as have other members here.  I am not claiming to have the keys to the kingdom.  I fear that since we are so close to the parallel topics of contact sports, boxing... culturally that we don't really spend alot of time thinking about their value. I was hoping to get some feedback about how FMA concepts have specifically allowed other techniques/arts to fit into their system.  As you and others have said before, this is concept and evolution.
> *



Paul M, 

Thses are much better words. I see no conjecture on your part with this selection. :asian:



> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *I hope that other readers will share their knowledge of western influences on FMA or martial practice in general.  I see the progression of mastery starting with techniques, moving to tactics and topping off at strategic mastery.  This may look different for each of us, and that's good.
> *



Another good selection of words, and phrased well.

Asking for people to give their opinions is what this is all about. 



> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *As far as the western/eastern influence on military/combative stuff:  The Muslim (Ottoman?) empire spread all the way into France so I agree that eastern influences are possible in the areas of technology, science and medicine primarily.
> *



Yes and the Muslim Empire or Religion of Islam spread across cultures towards the east, hence the spread all the way to the PI.



> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Armor, though, got lighter and moved away from metal because of the introduction of firearms moreso than europeans adopting an eastern doctrine of warfare.  No point in wearing tons of metal if a bullet or cannon shot can go right through anyway.  Swords, and pikes evolve into bayonets and so on.
> *



Yes, the firearm, developed in the east with gun powder, does add into the equation or randomness of assault on the battlefield. The Heavy metal armor became the sign of the rich/wealthy knights and land owners. When four or five guys with ropes from the trees could knock you off and stab you to death with a poinard through the soft parts of the armor around the neck or under the arm or  . . ., . The tactics of the common people changed to address the armor. Remember it cost lots of money and resources to have Heavy / Plate armor built and fit to you. It is much easier to have a chain shirt and mobility with less cost. It is even easier to outfit a group of men with leather armor, even less cost. Yes Swords and pikes became bayonets and swords for the officiers (Mounted) 



> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *I hope we can discuss these topics well.  I forgot about the Muslim thing until you posed the idea of eastern influence.
> 
> Paul Martin *



And I am sure I forgot many an item or did not know it, and either you or someone else will educate me or jog my memory.

I am sure we can continue to discuss and argue (* Present opposing sides *) in a cival manner.

Regards
:asian:


----------



## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Maybe this thread needs to be split again. *



Yes...or Paul Martin can start a new thread on the subject.


----------



## loki09789

Rich,

Quite honestly, I don't care if you approve of my word choice or not because I have gone back and reviewed what I said.  I never flamed anyone.  I was not rude and did not swear.  I stated my opinion, looking for imput not argument.  I simply stated strongly something I feel strongly about.  I may be guilty of being preachy or long winded at times, but I know I am not alone in this... Heck, I have seen more pointed attitude in Rocky posts and yours as well.

If you think I have somehow violated the forum rules act accordingly, otherwise let's just stay on the discussion track.  


I'm done with the western influence comments for now.  If there is anything else I will start a new thread.

Please direct any replies to private mail.  I don't see this as positive interaction, as per your forum rules. 

Paul Martin


----------



## Rocky

The Legendary Master Anderson Wrote:



> Wellllllllllll, not necessarily. We remember our masters as being better than we were but in all honesty, that's when they were better than we were. Unfortunately, as we get better down the years there is someone who could objectively say, "Hey, you passed up your instructor. Good for you." because by that time he's dead and can't stll you $h!t. Plus, it's not considered good manners to even think out loud that you might be approaching your teacher's skill but it happens all the time. I see the difference between karate int he 1960's when I started and now and the abilities of most practitioners now leave the others in the dust. That's progress, folks and that happens in FMA, I'll bet, as well.



  True true, I just think its funny how Martial arts seems to be the one thing that everyone always says "Oh man you should have seen my instructor or his instructor or what no. I realize its a for of respect, I just like to get people thinking!

 Oh and by the way I got some realy nice stones I found the other day, so let the stoning begin!!!!:rofl: 

Rich Rich Rich, how are you going to build yourself inot a legend, if you openly admit that a little thing like the Flu has a great Warrior from the Flint Dojo down. Look just between you and me you are suppose to tell people you hurt you back, or knee or something while slamming the Legendary Master Jim Power to the matt, and after hours of feirce training that brought  both of you to the brink of death, you finally had to tap out!!!! But not before letting him know he was in a real battle!! See this is the kind of stuff that builds you into a Ledgend!!
:rofl: 


Seriously though get rest and don't forget the chicken soup!!

Paul Wrote:



> know this, I know you know this, and I know Rocky knows this (which is why I felt comfortable enough to interpret, or misinterpret if that was the case, his post), but what about everyone else?



Checkout the big brain on Paul!!!!!!!:rofl: 

Paul M. Wrote:



> Quite honestly, I don't care if you approve of my word choice or not because I have gone back and reviewed what I said. I never flamed anyone. I was not rude and did not swear. I stated my opinion, looking for imput not argument. I simply stated strongly something I feel strongly about. I may be guilty of being preachy or long winded at times, but I know I am not alone in this... Heck, I have seen more pointed attitude in Rocky posts and yours as well.



Hey why drag me into this, I actually understood what you meant, thats why I posted that I think western and eastern pulled from each other.

Anyways I think its safe to say that martial artist constantly steal from each other, otherwise that become stagnant or "Stylist" and not artist!

Rocky


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Rich,
> 
> Quite honestly, I don't care if you approve of my word choice or not because I have gone back and reviewed what I said.  I never flamed anyone.  I was not rude and did not swear.  I stated my opinion, looking for imput not argument.  I simply stated strongly something I feel strongly about.  I may be guilty of being preachy or long winded at times, but I know I am not alone in this... Heck, I have seen more pointed attitude in Rocky posts and yours as well.
> 
> If you think I have somehow violated the forum rules act accordingly, otherwise let's just stay on the discussion track.
> 
> 
> I'm done with the western influence comments for now.  If there is anything else I will start a new thread.
> 
> Please direct any replies to private mail.  I don't see this as positive interaction, as per your forum rules.
> 
> Paul Martin *



Paul M.

Well, I am sorry you took my opinion wrong. It is something I fell strongly about also.

As to taking it to private e-mail, no problem. We can. Yet, I will not leave a post hanging, so I will reply.

I was trying to adderss the issue that I and others were not allowing you to express your opinions, with your comments that it would not be popular. You assumed _'We'_ all disagreed with you from the start. After a few exchanges, we have come to a more common ground.  This is positive progress. I gave the feedback so you would understand that I responded much better to positive words then to negative words. I was trying to explain how I saw it, in counter to your opinion or in may cases with your opinion with the exception that I did not see where it was not popular. I never said you flamed anyone. I have never said you broke a rule. I was only trying to give feedback as I saw it, that your comments and word choice could lead to negative comments versus postive comments. You choice of words that imply that others cannot think in tactics, and the being unpopular were the ones I was discussing. Yet, after thought you replied very eloquently and concisely and positively. I appriciated that. Thank You.

I am sorry to have hurt your feelings. 

Best Regards
:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *. . .
> Rich Rich Rich, how are you going to build yourself into a legend, if you openly admit that a little thing like the Flu has a great Warrior from the Flint Dojo down. Look just between you and me you are suppose to tell people you hurt you back, or knee or something while slamming the Legendary Master Jim Power to the matt, and after hours of feirce training that brought  both of you to the brink of death, you finally had to tap out!!!! But not before letting him know he was in a real battle!! See this is the kind of stuff that builds you into a Legend!!
> :rofl:
> 
> Seriously though get rest and don't forget the chicken soup!!
> 
> Rocky *



Rocky, :rofl: 

Legend, oh boy, that is one of the last things I want. I go and get humbled once a week by 70+ year old man. I train with Master Power and still get humbled twice a week. Nice story though. Maybe we should change the Tap out to I got knocked out 

As to the flu, I find it the little things I cannot see or touch the hardest to combat 

Lots of fluids and chicken soup 


Thank You
:asian:


----------



## loki09789

Rich,

I took this to email, comments here are not productive.

Paul Martin


----------



## Rocky

I lost your e-mail add again send it to me aor call me 313-389-5464 rockypasiwk@ameritech.net


Rocky


----------



## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Rich,
> 
> I took this to email, comments here are not productive.
> 
> Paul Martin *



Why not. It started here, so why not finish it here, instead of running behind private messages?


----------



## Emptyglass

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *Yet, a nice topic to discuss, I just wish it was so Frivolous a discussion about the roots of Balintwak which you (Tim K), Paul M, and Rich C all seem very willing to discuss and spout information.
> 
> :asian: *



Hi Rich:

Actually, I never professed to have any deeper knowledge than anyone (reread my posts please) about the roots of Balintawak (in this case GGM Anciong Bacon's original system as taught by him in the early-mid 20th century). Although, I believe I did meet and witness the skill of GM Bobby Taboada before any of the other Arnis players from the Buffalo area did (with the exception of Tim Kashino who was with me at the time). Not that that counts for jack-squat.

In fact there are many on this thread who have already posted who have invested much more time and effort into the research of that subject than honestly I am interested in doing right now. I'm spending all of my martial arts training time on trying to learn the physical/psychological concepts of Grand Master Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Escrima Cuentada System. I have a long way to go in my opinion.

I was interested in talking about Balintawak influences in Modern Arnis and how I see similarities between things I have been shown and practiced in Modern Arnis (from both GM Remy Presas and Dr. Jerome Barber) and GM Taboada's system. Since there will invariably be someone who asks exactly what I mean, I'm referring to the economy of motion in striking and footwork in the corto/medio mano range, use of the hip and legs for power generation, brace and force to force blocking technniques along vertical lines, baiting and enganyo techniques among some other things.

Some may assert that these things are common to all good FMA's and that may very well be true (in fact I feel it is true).

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Rich,
> 
> I took this to email, comments here are not productive.
> 
> Paul Martin *



I replied by e-mail.

Thank You
:asian:


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Hi Rich:
> 
> Actually, I never professed to have any deeper knowledge than anyone (reread my posts please) about the roots of Balintawak (in this case GGM Anciong Bacon's original system as taught by him in the early-mid 20th century). Although, I believe I did meet and witness the skill of GM Bobby Taboada before any of the other Arnis players from the Buffalo area did (with the exception of Tim Kashino who was with me at the time). Not that that counts for jack-squat.
> 
> In fact there are many on this thread who have already posted who have invested much more time and effort into the research of that subject than honestly I am interested in doing right now. I'm spending all of my martial arts training time on trying to learn the physical/psychological concepts of Grand Master Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Escrima Cuentada System. I have a long way to go in my opinion.
> 
> I was interested in talking about Balintawak influences in Modern Arnis and how I see similarities between things I have been shown and practiced in Modern Arnis (from both GM Remy Presas and Dr. Jerome Barber) and GM Taboada's system. Since there will invariably be someone who asks exactly what I mean, I'm referring to the economy of motion in striking and footwork in the corto/medio mano range, use of the hip and legs for power generation, brace and force to force blocking technniques along vertical lines, baiting and enganyo techniques among some other things.
> 
> Some may assert that these things are common to all good FMA's and that may very well be true (in fact I feel it is true).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich Curren *



"GGM Bacon", a phrase first given to us and spoken with great reverence by GM Bobby Taboada, here in Buffalo in 1995.  Too bad some people who do not know the man, have not studied with him and do not know his variant of the art insist on refering to him as "Bobby" and to "Taboada Balintawak".  I have never met Manong Ted Buot, but out of respect for someone who has been in the arts longer than myself, I always refer to him as "GM Ted", or  "Monong Ted".  I understand that GM Bobby, recognized GM Ted as his senior in Balintawak under GGM Bacon; the late GM Presas, recognized, GM Bobby as a classmate under GM Bacon, so out of respect for GM Ted and GM Remy, those of you who claim lineage throgh GMs Bout and Presas, might want to start using a more respectful terminology with regard to GM Bobby Taboada.

Richard is correct, he and Tim Kashino did meet and workout with GM Bobby BEFORE ANY OTHER FMAist in the Buffalo area.  In fact my group along with Tom Bolden's students were working in the Balintawak art BEFORE any other Buffalo area or NY State FMAist.

Economy of Motion, footwork and evasion are integral parts of my instructional program and even though I did not become the WNY Rep for Balintawak Cuentada Escrima Arnis - the offical and correct organization name that GM Bobby teaches under - one of my students did achieve that distinction.  Quite simply he is better at balintawak than I am, it suits his mentality and movement principles better than mine! 

My students have a very good idea about the structure, style, mechanics and history of Balintawak from the GGM Bacon lineage including GM Bout and GM Dom Lopez and we got started back in 1995.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Hi Rich:
> *



Hi Rich C,



> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Actually, I never professed to have any deeper knowledge than anyone (reread my posts please) about the roots of Balintawak (in this case GGM Anciong Bacon's original system as taught by him in the early-mid 20th century). Although, I believe I did meet and witness the skill of GM Bobby Taboada before any of the other Arnis players from the Buffalo area did (with the exception of Tim Kashino who was with me at the time). Not that that counts for jack-squat.
> *



No Deeper knowledge, well on this thread, maybe.  And I grant you that, I guess I was being wrong about you and Paul M and TIm K. You all seem to take a different stance and make points back and forth. All taking turns. Somehow, somewhere, Tom Bolden gets involved. Nice conversation we had. We agreed more than disagreed. Point in order you should call him, you might learn some things.

As to Witnessing Balintawak before all the rest of us. Not that it matters, I was there to pick up GM Remy Presas from the Airport in 1987. I had picked up Rocky (* Not bringing Rocky into this *) first. Rocky walks up to GM R Presas and greets up, and the first ting our of Remy's mouth after how are you? is .... "Show me what Ted has Shown You".  I got to witness Balintawak in teh Airport in the summer of 1987, and a few days later at the Michigan Summer Camp. Not that it matters. 



> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *In fact there are many on this thread who have already posted who have invested much more time and effort into the research of that subject than honestly I am interested in doing right now. I'm spending all of my martial arts training time on trying to learn the physical/psychological concepts of Grand Master Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Escrima Cuentada System. I have a long way to go in my opinion.
> *



RIch C, I honestly wish you luck and good training in your goal.



> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *I was interested in talking about Balintawak influences in Modern Arnis and how I see similarities between things I have been shown and practiced in Modern Arnis (from both GM Remy Presas and Dr. Jerome Barber) and GM Taboada's system. Since there will invariably be someone who asks exactly what I mean, I'm referring to the economy of motion in striking and footwork in the corto/medio mano range, use of the hip and legs for power generation, brace and force to force blocking technniques along vertical lines, baiting and enganyo techniques among some other things.
> *



Nicely put!

In Modern Arnis, the brace block is used, in Balintawak after five years of training, I have not seen it in Balintawak. So, yes I can see the similarites and the differences. And to have this discussion is fine. Yet, as Tim K keeps stating keep an open mind and allow for the difference in lineages and techniques and instructions. I do. 

I would like to discuss the baiting aspect. Thoughts?



> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Some may assert that these things are common to all good FMA's and that may very well be true (in fact I feel it is true).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich Curren *



Some of these things are common, in philosphy and others in technique, yet the combinations allow for the difference in the arts. One could always say the body can only move in a finite motion and joints move and have strees points as well. Therefore if you find these stress points you then have technique. Or places to strike your technique.

Best Regards
:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *"GGM Bacon", a phrase first given to us and spoken with great reverence by GM Bobby Taboada, here in Buffalo in 1995.  Too bad some people who do not know the man, have not studied with him and do not know his variant of the art insist on referring to him as "Bobby" and to "Taboada Balintawak".  I have never met Manong Ted Buot, but out of respect for someone who has been in the arts longer than myself, I always refer to him as "GM Ted", or  "Manong Ted".  I understand that GM Bobby, recognized GM Ted as his senior in Balintawak under GGM Bacon; the late GM Presas, recognized, GM Bobby as a classmate under GM Bacon, so out of respect for GM Ted and GM Remy, those of you who claim lineage thorough GMs Bout and Presas, might want to start using a more respectful terminology with regard to GM Bobby Taboada.
> *



Hi Jerome,

I never meant disrespect to GM Taboada.

I used the term Taboada Balintawak I thought after seeing it elsewhere. After my discussion with Panung Guro Tom Bolden, I have only used Balintawak Eskrima Cuentada or Balintawak Cuentada Eskrima as Mr. Bolden told me. 

As to GM Taboada being a classmate under GM Bacon, I beg to differ. No disrespect to GM Taboada. Now if you mean Under GM Bacon as in a student under GM Pilo Vilez under GM Attn Joe Villasin under GM Anciong Bacon. Then yes I agree.

I have used respectful terminology, for I never meant disrespect to GM Taboada. I do apologize for the misspelling though.

Maybe you your self good Doctor, should use the same in return. For those who claim lineage through GM Buot and GM Presas. I claim nothing, I made the statement. 

Are you calling me or maybe others a liar? Are you insulting me or others?



> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *Richard is correct, he and Tim Kashino did meet and workout with GM Bobby BEFORE ANY OTHER FMAist in the Buffalo area.  In fact my group along with Tom Bolden's students were working in the Balintawak art BEFORE any other Buffalo area or NY State FMAist.
> *



And like Richard said what does that matter? I have seen Balintawak back in the mid 1980's. What does that mean?



> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *Economy of Motion, footwork and evasion are integral parts of my instructional program and even though I did not become the WNY Rep for Balintawak Cuentada Escrima Arnis - the official and correct organization name that GM Bobby teaches under - one of my students did achieve that distinction.  Quite simply he is better at Balintawak than I am, it suits his mentality and movement principles better than mine!
> *



Good for your student. Paul Martin I believe?

So, now we all know that GM Taboada teaches Balintawak Cuentada Escrima Arnis. I will use this term form now and type it out. I expect the same from all of your students and those that are not your students to do the same.

Balintawak - GM Buot
Balintawak Cuentada Eskrima Arnis - GM Taboada
Villasin (Grouped) Balintawak - GM Villasin also GM Lopez
Mongcal's Balintawak - GM Mongcal - GM Veeck(?)
Maranga's Tres Persona's - GM Maranga

Are these the terms we can agree upon? Any Feedback or corrections?



> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *My students have a very good idea about the structure, style, mechanics and history of Balintawak from the GGM Bacon lineage including GM Bout and GM Dom Lopez and we got started back in 1995.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D. *



Yes your students have a good understanding as your stated of Balintawak Cuentada Eskrima Arnis though GM Taboada, through GM Vilez, through GM Villasin, to GM Bacon. A very excellent  lineage. GM Taboada I believe has admitted he has added in Boxing and Abiniko (* Choose your spelling *) and Sinawali's and more. It is also well know that GM Attn Villasin also grouped the techniques for easier instruction. 

GM Buot states he has keep the techniques exactly the same as taught by GM Anciong Bacon. So, I admit that there are differences, people admit that they have added, therefore by definition it cannot be the exact same. So, as Tim K has stated numerous times keep an open mind. I try to. I listen to what you and everyone else has said. I can see the similarities, yet I also see the differences.

As to starting in 1995. Good. How many hours? How much contact? Seminar hours versus private one on one lessons? Just curious?

Regards


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> * Although, I believe I did meet and witness the skill of GM Bobby Taboada before any of the other Arnis players from the Buffalo area did (with the exception of Tim Kashino who was with me at the time). Not that that counts for jack-squat. *



Actually Jeff Rech and myself met GM Bobby in North Carolina around 94 when he was featured at a Big 4 seminar that Irwin Carmicheal (sp) hosted. This happened before GM Bobby ever came to Buffalo. I would have loved to come to the Buffalo camps, but Jerome always scheduled them the same time as the Michigan IMAF camp.


----------



## Rocky

Whats up Doc, good to see you back!!!!

 I do have a couple of little bones to pick though sorry!!


Doc Wrote:



> GGM Bacon", a phrase first given to us and spoken with great reverence by GM Bobby Taboada, here in Buffalo in 1995. Too bad some people who do not know the man, have not studied with him and do not know his variant of the art insist on refering to him as "Bobby" and to "Taboada Balintawak". I have never met Manong Ted Buot, but out of respect for someone who has been in the arts longer than myself, I always refer to him as "GM Ted", or "Monong Ted". I understand that GM Bobby, recognized GM Ted as his senior in Balintawak under GGM Bacon; the late GM Presas, recognized, GM Bobby as a classmate under GM Bacon, so out of respect for GM Ted and GM Remy, those of you who claim lineage throgh GMs Bout and Presas, might want to start using a more respectful terminology with regard to GM Bobby Taboada



 I have always and quite often recieved heat for refering to Anciong as Great Grand Master, check the Eskrima Digest as far back as the yearly 90s.

 Secondly Gm Presas was Senior to GM Buot who was Senior to GM Taboada. In fact GGM Bacon hadn't developed Abecidario yet when GM Presas was training with him. Master Edwards and myself taught GM Presas Abecedario. GM Taboada was more of a student of Telo Velez (sp) this is wat GM Taboada told GM Buot. However GM Taboada did do some training with GGM Bacon after GM Buot left in 1974, this is why GM Toboada is more like the Grouped version of Balintawak.

 If you are lucky enough to train with any of these guys you got it made. So as far as trining goes it ultimately is what you put into it.

As far as respect goes I agree with you Doc, you have always spoke with respect when speaking of Gm Buot or GM Presas when I have talked with you. But people must understand that just because you may have been on the outs with someone and may not agree with other personal issues, it doesn't mean you had no respect for them. And as a reminder to my self and other, becuase I very quilty of it, we should not refer to any of these guys by first name.

Doc also Wrote:



> Richard is correct, he and Tim Kashino did meet and workout with GM Bobby BEFORE ANY OTHER FMAist in the Buffalo area. In fact my group along with Tom Bolden's students were working in the Balintawak art BEFORE any other Buffalo area or NY State FMAist



 Well again this might be picked up as nit picking. You may ( I am not in the loop in Buf. anymore) be the first official group in Buf. But yours truely was teaching Don Zanghi, moncols Balintawak back in the mid 80's. And I was showing Tim H. Abecedario when ever he had me in for a seminar in the early 90s. But again its kind of knit picky on my part I know. 

Lastly: Doc Wrote:


> My students have a very good idea about the structure, style, mechanics and history of Balintawak from the GGM Bacon lineage including GM Bout and GM Dom Lopez and we got started back in 1995.



 I know you have seen me demo Anciongs Balintawak and maybe even some of Moncols and Maranga's. But the body mechanics of GGM Bacons, and now GM Buots Balintawak is way way way different. In fact When one of Dom Lopez's guys came down from Canada our movement totally confused him. Original Balintawak is so much neater, less movement, very very close not near as much swaying as many of the modified versions, not to say one is better than the other, cause again its what you put into it. In fact I had just mentioned to Rich on the phone today GM presas didn't train in the modified version just because one of the instructors was left handed as he was, but more because of some of the unique blocking and locking that they prcticed that Gm Presas perfered. That and he left Anciong because, he and Delphane Lopez, (Gm Buots Uncle) had a bit of an issue, and while GM Presas was a great stick fighter, Dephane packed a 45, and when a man with a 45 meets a man with a stick that is better then he is, the man with the 45 will probably shoot the man with the stick.

 Anyways you really have to train with Gm Buot to understand our body mechanics and move, in relation to the other Balintawak GM, no disrespect intended to them

Rich Wrote:





> As to Witnessing Balintawak before all the rest of us. Not that it matters, I was there to pick up GM Remy Presas from the Airport in 1987. I had picked up Rocky (* Not bringing Rocky into this *) first. Rocky walks up to GM R Presas and greets up, and the first ting our of Remy's mouth after how are you? is .... "Show me what Ted has Shown You". I got to witness Balintawak in teh Airport in the summer of 1987, and a few days later at the Michigan Summer Camp. Not that it matters.



WOW that was you!!!! Cool!!


I am sure if Remy was alive today and we tried to do some of the things we did back then in an Airport, we would have new full time jobs watching each others back in the big house.


Rocky


----------



## Emptyglass

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *
> No Deeper knowledge, well on this thread, maybe.  And I grant you that, I guess I was being wrong about you and Paul M and TIm K. You all seem to take a different stance and make points back and forth. All taking turns. Somehow, somewhere, Tom Bolden gets involved. Nice conversation we had. We agreed more than disagreed. Point in order you should call him, you might learn some things.
> 
> As to Witnessing Balintawak before all the rest of us. Not that it matters, I was there to pick up GM Remy Presas from the Airport in 1987. I had picked up Rocky (* Not bringing Rocky into this *) first. Rocky walks up to GM R Presas and greets up, and the first ting our of Remy's mouth after how are you? is .... "Show me what Ted has Shown You".  I got to witness Balintawak in teh Airport in the summer of 1987, and a few days later at the Michigan Summer Camp. Not that it matters.
> 
> In Modern Arnis, the brace block is used, in Balintawak after five years of training, I have not seen it in Balintawak. So, yes I can see the similarites and the differences. And to have this discussion is fine. Yet, as Tim K keeps stating keep an open mind and allow for the difference in lineages and techniques and instructions. I do.
> 
> I would like to discuss the baiting aspect. Thoughts?
> 
> Best Regards
> :asian: *



Hi Rich P (to keep people from getting confused as we share the same name):

A few points of clarification on some of the above statements.

1. What thread are you referring to? I've never claimed to be an authority on Balintawak. Online or off. Simply an interested student.

2. You need to read more carefully, please. I said I was the first student from the Buffalo area to meet GM Bobby Taboada and witness Balintawak Eskrima Cuentada shown by him at GM Remy Presas' camp in Charlotte, NC at Irwin Carmichael's school in '93 (or was it '92, I can't remember anymore). If you're going to intimate that I am incorrect, please at least get the facts correct as to what I typed. Thanks.

3. Rich, I've known PG Tom Bolden for many years now. I was introduced to him in the early '90's when Dr. Barber and I used to drive to Poughkeepsie, NY to see GM Remy Presas and him. I've gone to his camps, talked to him on the phone, sat down to dinner with him and learned a great many things from him about the practice and history of Arnis, Kenpo and the Filipino Martial Arts. Although I don't talk to him on the phone as often as I would like, I like to think that we are friendly if not friends. This being said, perhaps I should give him a call and find out what's new since we talked, trained and had dinner together at the Symposium this past summer. Thanks for the tip.

4. As for having an open mind, I haven't criticized, countered or said boo about anything anyone has said in this conversation. I have no idea what goes on in the style of Balintawak you practice, nor do I claim to. Where does this statement come from: " Yet, as Tim K keeps stating keep an open mind and allow for the difference in lineages and techniques and instructions."?
When have I ever said anything that would evidence my mind if closed to new ideas? Why are stating you think I have a closed mind without any statements from me to reinforce that position? What are you doing?

5. As for baiting aspects, sure we can talk about them. My thoughts on them are that I currently am not good enough at Arnis to pull them off very often on purpose and that baiting takes a very complex combination of training and practice to accomplish adequately as well as good body mechanics, opponent sensitivity and the willingness to take a shot in a sensitive area if you don't pull them off correctly. My current instructor Guro Bobby Ladra is an accomplished baiter and I'm doing my best to learn the lessons he's showing me to increase my own skills.

Thanks for responding,

Rich Curren


----------



## Emptyglass

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Actually Jeff Rech and myself met GM Bobby in North Carolina around 94 when he was featured at a Big 4 seminar that Irwin Carmicheal (sp) hosted. This happened before GM Bobby ever came to Buffalo. I would have loved to come to the Buffalo camps, but Jerome always scheduled them the same time as the Michigan IMAF camp. *



As I've stated, I met GM Taboada before that with Tim Kashino at one of the Professor's camps that Irwin Carmichael hosted in Charlotte. I believe it was in '93 but I can't remember for sure anymore (Dr. Barber or Tim Kashino - do you remember the exact date, am I making a false statement here by accident?) I got my Lakan at the Michigan camp in '92 and I believe we made that trip either just after or just before that camp.

I do remember that Tim Kashino and I were the only 2 players from Buffalo who attended and that the car ride down to and back from Charlotte was monumental. Dr. Barber didn't bring GM Taboada to Buffalo until after I left the area in 1995. I don't think I ever saw GM Taboada in Buffalo and I'm sorry I missed out on the opportunity as one of those times, GM Taboada was there with Sifu-Guro Billy Bryant and Punong Guro Tom Bolden. That is a heavy-duty card in my opinion.

If I'm in error I apologize as it is purely unintentional and I will acknowledge that if it turns out to be true. However, as has been stated, this is all pretty valueless and off-topic. I apologize to everyone for even bringing it up and continuing it on.

However, I don't want the facts to be misconstrued by accident.

Salamat po,

Rich Curren


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Hi Rich P (to keep people from getting confused as we share the same name):
> 
> A few points of clarification on some of the above statements.
> 
> 1. What thread are you referring to? I've never claimed to be an authority on Balintawak. Online or off. Simply an interested student.
> *



Rich C, After the re-read of this and other threads. I apologize for the inference. I can see your point. 



> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *2. You need to read more carefully, please. I said I was the first student from the Buffalo area to meet GM Bobby Taboada and witness Balintawak Eskrima Cuentada shown by him at GM Remy Presas' camp in Charlotte, NC at Irwin Carmichael's school in '93 (or was it '92, I can't remember anymore). If you're going to intimate that I am incorrect, please at least get the facts correct as to what I typed. Thanks.
> *



I did not bring in the dates of when you were there, Rich. All I said was that I had also see it also in the mid 80's and agreed with you, as to the fact that it did not matter. I di dnot mean to cause further confusion. I only referenced my dates not yours.



> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *3. Rich, I've known PG Tom Bolden for many years now. I was introduced to him in the early '90's when Dr. Barber and I used to drive to Poughkeepsie, NY to see GM Remy Presas and him. I've gone to his camps, talked to him on the phone, sat down to dinner with him and learned a great many things from him about the practice and history of Arnis, Kenpo and the Filipino Martial Arts. Although I don't talk to him on the phone as often as I would like, I like to think that we are friendly if not friends. This being said, perhaps I should give him a call and find out what's new since we talked, trained and had dinner together at the Symposium this past summer. Thanks for the tip.
> *



Yes, he has lots of information. He went out of his way to have Tim K contact me with his phone number to call him. I really enjoyed it. 



> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *4. As for having an open mind, I haven't criticized, countered or said boo about anything anyone has said in this conversation. I have no idea what goes on in the style of Balintawak you practice, nor do I claim to. Where does this statement come from: " Yet, as Tim K keeps stating keep an open mind and allow for the difference in lineages and techniques and instructions."?
> When have I ever said anything that would evidence my mind if closed to new ideas? Why are stating you think I have a closed mind without any statements from me to reinforce that position? What are you doing?
> *



Rich C, You claim an open mind. I will accept you at that and take your statment as truth about yourself. The next time you converse with me it will be with two open minds. 



> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *5. As for baiting aspects, sure we can talk about them. My thoughts on them are that I currently am not good enough at Arnis to pull them off very often on purpose and that baiting takes a very complex combination of training and practice to accomplish adequately as well as good body mechanics, opponent sensitivity and the willingness to take a shot in a sensitive area if you don't pull them off correctly. My current instructor Guro Bobby Ladra is an accomplished baiter and I'm doing my best to learn the lessons he's showing me to increase my own skills.
> 
> Thanks for responding,
> 
> Rich Curren *



Guro Ladra, who had taught you the knife drill? Well then continue the work and learning.

Thanks for responding,


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *Hi Guys,
> Well compared to you guys, my exposure to Balintawak is sporadic and minimal, but enough to draw some basic comparisons. Perhaps "a lot more" concerning the roots of Balintawak was a not a prudent choice of syntax. I'm often limited on time that I can spend frivolously in front of a computer.
> 
> Back to Surigao... I don't know the reliability of this information, but prior to WWII, GM Bacon used to trade with a group of natives in Surigao (perhaps the fire walkers) that had a stickfighting method and their warriors were reportedly very fast and very skilled. It is speculated he had learned their system (agak style?) prior to the creation of the Balnitawak club. Does anybody have any further information on the subject?  *



Just got off the phone with GM Buot. He has no clue what you're talking about.

I don't know why everyone thinks they're an expert on Balintawak now. Lets clear some things up. As a student of GM Buot we get a very unique learning experience.
*
1.	All classes are private lessons with GM Buot himself. This allows for better learning and gives the student the option to ask as many questions as they want without holding anyone back.

2.	During the classes, we are not only taught the history of each move, we are also taught the history of the art. *

That being said, I feel that several of the people making comments on this thread are misinformed and talking through their ***. When you learn a system through seminars and camps, it takes much longer to get the history of the system youre studying. At training events we try to work on the technical end and often neglect the historical and cultural side of things. With the training that I receive from Manong Buot, Im fortunate to receive information concerning ALL aspects of Balintawak.  

I think the point that everyone seems to be missing is that there is only one person ever authorized to teach at the original Balintawak club when Bacon wasnt present and that was Manong Buot. Manong Buot is in his 70s. Many of the other *Grandmasters* are second and third generation students. With each generation students pieces of a systems history are lost. 

What I dont understand is why people feel that the Buot students dont know what were talking about when it come to our history. We have direct contact with Manong Buot on a regular basis and our teacher was there as a direct student of GM Bacon. As far as this evolution goes I have to disagree. The system is being taught as it was meant to be, and GM Buot is teaching it. There is nothing wrong with the other programs out there, but there was only ONE Balintawak Eskrima. The other systems came from the original. This is not to say that their programs arent good, what Im saying is their programs arent accurate representation of the original system.

Ill use myself as an example. When my students become black belts I begin to teach them elements of Balintawak. I make sure that my students know that they are learning elements and not the whole system. The program is a step away from the original. This is not to say that I dont to do a good job with my students, what I will say is that my hybrid program doesnt accurately represent the system.

Again, I dont understand the problem:
*
1.	Bobby Taboada was a student of Pilo Velez. 
2.	Pilo Velez was a student of Joe Villasan.
3.	Joe Villasan was a student of Anciong Bacon.*

This makes GM Bobby a 3rd generation student of Bacon. Ted Buot was a 1st generation student and was there for much of the history. In addition he is also related to Bacon and made it easier to find out about family history. As in the game pass it on, each time a story is told by a new person the facts start to lose their integrity.


----------



## Cruentus

> Back to Surigao... I don't know the reliability of this information, but prior to WWII, GM Bacon used to trade with a group of natives in Surigao (perhaps the fire walkers) that had a stickfighting method and their warriors were reportedly very fast and very skilled. It is speculated he had learned their system (agak style?) prior to the creation of the Balnitawak club. Does anybody have any further information on the subject?



It is looking as if that is wholey untrue, and a fancy rumor. I just saw Manong Ted today, and I asked him. Ted believes that it is very unlikely that he was severly influenced by anyone outside of the Saavadre group. He is checking further, but he had never heard of this idea, and all of Anciongs training references where with the Saavadres.

Things weren't as ecclectic as they are now a days. martial artists 50 and 100 years ago didn't learn a little Arnis, a little JKD, a little ju-jitsu, a littel Karate, a little Soyac, etc.,etc. etc. If there one style addressed every situation that they needed, then they continued to perfect themselves using that one style. For better or worse, they would more often fight against other styles, rather then join together to learn someone elses methods. The styles that survived were obviously the better ones; Martial Arts Darwinism. So, excuse my ramble, but the notion that Anciong learned a whole bunch of different stuff, like remy, to create his style only really fits in with todays worldview. This doesn't mean that was what really happened.

So it looks like Anciong's training was mostly Saavadre, as well as his own innovation. If I hear differently, I'll post! :asian:


----------



## Cruentus

> Just got off the phone with GM Buot. He has no clue what you're talking about.



LOL...Hartman, always less diplomatic and more to the point then I....:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

Let's not turn this into a Ted vs. Bobby war. If you have a problem with what we are saying or with us, that is one thing, but if you are just trying to start something because you are pissed about some personal history then that is another.  We are talking about the facts, and that is all.  If your sources aren't as accurate as someone else's, don't get upset about it.  There was a mild problem in the past because Bobby's claims were inaccurate.  Since then he has amended his statements.  The Buot training group has no problem with the Taboada training group.  I have no problems with them nor am I looking for any problems.


----------



## Tgace

Geez guys take it easy. From what Ive read here, Tim K. just said he heard a rumor from some third source and was wondering if anybody here heard the same thing. Unless there was something that happened offline I dont understand where this confrontational attitude is coming from.

Granted Im not privy to the history between the groups here other than through 3rd party stories (which are always taken with a grain of salt by me). But im confused by the tone....


----------



## loki09789

This statement is based on my recollections of stories while sitting with GM Bobby at dinners during his visits here in Bflo.  

From what I understand/remember Bobby's first Bk instructor was Villez but eventually he did get face time with GGM Bacon.  My take on his explanation was that these other Grand Masters under Bacon would send up students to work with Bacon after a certain point in training.  Sort of a Masters degree program within the art.  This may have been the equivelant of  an MA instructor's students working with GM Remy Presas at seminars; it is time with the system head.  No one would discredit that time from anyone here.  I could be wrong, but that is what I remember.

I think that anyone working with Ted Buot is probably very lucky to have the experience, but Rich Parsons has said before and I agree with it Ted may know much, but not all.  There may be pieces of the history or events that Mr. Buot just wasn't part of, that were still significant events.  Also, FMA is full of in fighting and friction (not that we know about that here), so there may be things that each of these instructors just don't share with us, just like parents don't tell their children about everything that they did as kids, or all the dirty laundry in the family history...

I don't know how this got to be so hostile a discussion, and I don't feel that I am talking out of my A*S.  I am working from my best recollections as well as current contact with my Bk sources of Bobby and personal research via internet sites about and by various Bk artists from a variety of Bk variances.  I am not accusing anyone of lying or being wrong.  I recognize that together we might be able to piece together a complete picture from our diverse contacts.  That may take some clarification of our own and other peoples contributions.  

Case in point:  I went back and read the post where Rich C did use the term Taboada Balintawak that Rich P picked up on and continued to use.  I think for both Rich's (that is so weird to write) the term simply was a way of distinguishing between Mr. Buots (Manong?If that is it, what does it mean?) stuff and GM Bobby's stuff.  I didn't see any disrespect in that reference myself, just an attempt at short handing for speed and simplicity.  Rich P has graciously changed his terminology to avoid any disrespect.  I think these mature, professional dialogues are the way to go.  Assumptions only lead to problems.

The last time I talked to GM Bobby, he said he felt like he had a responsiblity to help and support Remy's MA people out of respect of Remy's memory.  I think that is a good example to follow.


Basically, we don't have to like each other personally, but we do have to get along as FMA family members.  Maybe it's the former Marine in me, but I would like to think that no matter how much we might disagree internally, we would pull together for the sake of the FMA family (Espirit de Corps).  Just remember, fight all we want but we still have to be willing to drive each other to the hospital when it is done 

Paul Martin


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## Emptyglass

> _Originally posted by Tgace _
> *Geez guys take it easy. From what Ive read here, Tim K. just said he heard a rumor from some third source and was wondering if anybody here heard the same thing. Unless there was something that happened offline I dont understand where this confrontational attitude is coming from.
> *



I'm wondering the same here. Nothing going on offline or online for that matter with me. I've never seen Manong Buot's Balintiwak performed on video or in person, so I can't comment on it. Nor will I attempt to draw an opinion of it until I do so.

I have seen GM Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Eskrima Cuentada up close and personal and it is powerful, effective and well worth anyone's time and interest in my opinion.

I don't think anyone has said anything about either <U>art</U> that could really be thought of as disrespectful on purpose. So why anyone should feel they are having a problem or that there is consternation between the 2 arts is baffling to me.

I do think that perhaps some of the practicioners have problems with each other on a personal level, that is they really just don't like each other or their opinions for one reason or another. However, that has nothing to do with the validity of either style.

And that's just fine. No one says we all have to like each other. Just that we have to follow the forum rules as posted if we wish to continue to post here.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## Emptyglass

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *
> I don't know why everyone thinks they're an expert on Balintawak now. *



I don't think anyone involved in this discussion so far has or really can claim to be an expert on Balintawak's history or practice (perhaps with the exception of Rocky Paswik who has probably been practicing Balintawak the longest by far of everyone I've seen make a post on this thread that I know of - some mysterious people still lie unknown behind their usernames which is their perogative). No one who ever met GGM Bacon is posting here right? So everyone is really just getting their information second or third hand from other people.

That doesn't mean that none of it is true (and resources such as Manong Buot and GM Bobby Taboada are the best sources of information we have now that GGM Bacon is gone), but if you ask three witnesses with three different points of view about a car crash, each one will have a different story and explanation about exactly what happened. Unless you were privy to events in person, you really have to keep an open mind about things as in this case more than one person can be telling the absolute truth depending on their point of view and the time/circumstances in which they witnessed events (whoah, a Ben Kenobi moment).

This being said, we're all entitled to speak or voice our opinions and speculations here in this forum freely, correct? Regardless of whether we are right, wrong or indifferent. Free speech (within the limitations of the Forum rules) is still in effect here, right? If someone doesn't like what's being said, they have a right to take issue with it as well. Hence the beauty and drama of the internet chat room/forum rolls on in unceasing motion. 

Personally I don't feel the need for anyone's approval to say something here and I think that's the way it should be.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *I don't think anyone involved in this discussion so far has or really can claim to be an expert on Balintawak's history or practice (perhaps with the exception of Rocky Paswik who has probably been practicing Balintawak the longest by far of everyone I've seen make a post on this thread that I know of - some mysterious people still lie unknown behind their usernames which is their perogative). No one who ever met GGM Bacon is posting here right? So everyone is really just getting their information second or third hand from other people.
> 
> That doesn't mean that none of it is true (and resources such as Manong Buot and GM Bobby Taboada are the best sources of information we have now that GGM Bacon is gone), but if you ask three witnesses with three different points of view about a car crash, each one will have a different story and explanation about exactly what happened. Unless you were privy to events in person, you really have to keep an open mind about things as in this case more than one person can be telling the absolute truth depending on their point of view and the time/circumstances in which they witnessed events (whoah, a Ben Kenobi moment).
> 
> This being said, we're all entitled to speak or voice our opinions and speculations here in this forum freely, correct? Regardless of whether we are right, wrong or indifferent. Free speech (within the limitations of the Forum rules) is still in effect here, right? If someone doesn't like what's being said, they have a right to take issue with it as well. Hence the beauty and drama of the internet chat room/forum rolls on in unceasing motion.
> 
> Personally I don't feel the need for anyone's approval to say something here and I think that's the way it should be.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich Curren *



Rich C. very nicely put.

This is what I have been trynig to say elsewhere sometimes. That the presentation of Balintawak Cuentada Eskrima Arnis is not exactly the same as Balintawak taught by GM Buot.

As Master Rocky and others have stated, this does not take aay from either art.

The point I have been trying to make and you make here also, is tht people will see things differntly.

When some admits openingly that they have added to an art (* No disrespect *) then it cannot be the same unless what was added is zero or a null set. As Boxing and Sinawalis, and Abiniko and , ...., . whatever else has been added is not a null set or have zero worth, they have changed it from the starting point. Therefore there are differences. 

As to being entitled to the right of free speech, is not quite correct. This is a private board, owned by a company. That company has allowed the general populace to sign up and post freely their opinions as long as they follow the rules. The difference is subtle, yet very important. The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights do not protect anyone here. Yet, I and the other Moderators, have tried to allow people to express their opinions.

So, Rich C and everyone else continue to post within the rules and enjoy.

With Respect
:asian:


----------



## Emptyglass

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Rich C. very nicely put.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> When some admits openingly that they have added to an art (* No disrespect *) then it cannot be the same unless what was added is zero or a null set. As Boxing and Sinawalis, and Abiniko and , ...., . whatever else has been added is not a null set or have zero worth, they have changed it from the starting point. Therefore there are differences.
> 
> As to being entitled to the right of free speech, is not quite correct. This is a private board, owned by a company. That company has allowed the general populace to sign up and post freely their opinions as long as they follow the rules. The difference is subtle, yet very important. The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights do not protect anyone here. Yet, I and the other Moderators, have tried to allow people to express their opinions.
> 
> :asian: *



Rich P:

I don't think anyone ever tried to make a statement that Manong Buot's or GM Taboada's systems or training methods were the same. I don't know how that even came up. However, they do both descend from the same instructor (GGM Bacon) as does GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis to some extent, so there  most probably are similarities within the 3 arts due to a shared instructor in all 3 Grandmaster's pasts. Which was the original point I was making way back before this thing started rambling, so thanks for helping me get back to my original thesis.

As for speaking freely, I'm not so insular to assume that we were only talking about the USA here as we probably have alot of forum members from other countries. I was more talking about the right of human beings in general being able to express themselves freely in an open forum.

If this board is owned by a company as you say, are you telling me that we can be censored if an owner in that company doesn't like what is being said even if that statement doesn't break any of the forum rules? Or if something that is said runs opposite to his/her interests. If that is the case, who does own the company/control and guide the interests of its business practices?

Thanks,

Rich Curren


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## Emptyglass

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *
> As for speaking freely, I'm not so insular to assume that we were only talking about the USA here as we probably have alot of forum members from other countries. I was more talking about the right of human beings in general being able to express themselves freely in an open forum.
> *



Hmmm. Reading this over again, it sounds a little dumb and idealistic. Perhaps I have too much faith in the internet as a free and open international forum. <shrug> Oh well. 

Thanks,

Rich Curren


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *If this board is owned by a company as you say, are you telling me that we can be censored if an owner in that company doesn't like what is being said even if that statement doesn't break any of the forum rules? Or if something that is said runs opposite to his/her interests. *



In principle, yes--MartialTalk could ban the use of the word blue on a whim. Of course, that would be ridiculous.

We don't do anything so cavalier, nor do we ban competing interests. We have always welcomed other board's admins announcing their new boards here, for example, even though they clearly compete with us for members' time. All organizations are welcome to post announcements about their seminars. The company that owns MartialTalk (SilverStar) is a web-hosting company and part of the hope is that MartialTalk will atttract new web-hosting clients for the company. But, we have always allowed others who design and host sites to advertise their services here. We strive to take the high road. We encourage discussion of our moderation policies (in the Support forum) and constructive criticism is always welcome.

The bottom line is that you can say what you like here, within our rules, which are principally that you say it in a polite and respectful manner. You may say negative things to or about anyone associated with the site, as long as you do it the way you would with a colleague at work--politely and professionally, treating others the way you would wish to be treated. For other discussions, there's the PM system and e-mail.

No one need be concerned that they must be extra-careful about expressing their opinion because a moderator is a participant in a thread. As a matter of policy, if a moderator is a participant in a thread then he or she calls in someone else to handle any moderation issues (beyond splitting threads or handling requests to delete posts or such) so that someone disinterested makes the call. In any event, decisions to warn individuals must be discussed by the mod. team as a group before action is taking (barring an emergency, like the occasional spam run through every forum). If anyone has a problem with a moderator, _please_ contact an admin! Contact me (*arnisador*), *Cthulhu*, or *Kaith Rustaz* about the matter. Your privacy will be respected, and we will investigate the matter and take corrective action if need be.

Moderators are allowed to express their opinions just like any other member. Unless it's signed as below, it's a personal opinion, not an official statement.

Please, speak your mind! We want opinions and discussions. We expect disagreements. As long as those disagreements are civil--and no warnings have been issued in this thread--that's fine.



> *
> If that is the case, who does own the company/control and guide the interests of its business practices? *



Robert Hubbard (*Kaith Rustaz*) is the sole owner of SilverStar WebDesigns Inc.

The rest of the admins and mods. are volunteers who assist him. They are unpaid and have no financial intrest in the company in general nor in MartialTalk in particular, which continues to operate in the red.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Perhaps I have too much faith in the internet as a free and open international forum. *



Mr. Hubbard and I feel similarly about the Internet.

It's one reason MartialTalk hasn't closed the board (members only can view) and why MartialTalk resisted requesting real names for so long (though eventually circumstances semed to compel the change). We want everyone to feel free to speak freely here--but we also dont want the chaos that is rec.martial-arts. We do the best balancing act we can!

Further discussion of moderation policies is best handled in the Support forum.


-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Emptyglass

Thanks for the response fellas, this clarifies a few things for me.

Rich Curren


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Rich P:
> 
> I don't think anyone ever tried to make a statement that Manong Buot's or GM Taboada's systems or training methods were the same. I don't know how that even came up. However, they do both descend from the same instructor (GGM Bacon) as does GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis to some extent, so there  most probably are similarities within the 3 arts due to a shared instructor in all 3 Grandmaster's pasts. Which was the original point I was making way back before this thing started rambling, so thanks for helping me get back to my original thesis.
> . . .
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich Curren *



Rich C et al,

Yes if you were to draw a Venn Diagram between the different lineages from GM Anciong Bacon you would see over laps from one to the other. Yet the only spot I can think of where all would over lap woudl be the numbering systems, who wait Modern Arnis has a different numbering system, so I would not expect the one area common to all the circles. I would expect as you stated that their are similarites, and I would expect that their are differences as well. All the GM's and systems excpet GM Buot and Balintawak state that they have added something. Modified with some extra. Grouped  and Grouped with additions. As I stated before I do not think of these as null sets therfore they have value or content. Therefore the difference.

Yet, as you stated, their will be similiarities. And Rich C, just because you are the last one talking to me  does not mean I said you said that there are no differences.
:asian: 

Have a nice day!


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## Emptyglass

Rich P:

Uggh. Venn Diagrams. This is the stuff I see in human resource and business meetings at work (where I am now).  Blarhghh!

Fair enough, we agree there are similarities and differences. Which is kind of a no brainer, considering what we are talking about in the first place, that is, different styles of instruction of the Filipino Martial Arts.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Rich P:
> Uggh. Venn Diagrams. This is the stuff I see in human resource and business meetings at work (where I am now).  Blarhghh!
> . . .
> Thanks,
> Rich Curren *



Rich C,

I am sorry for the bad taste in your mouth. I see you escape from work to here to get away form it all. Maybe we should call for the judge to see if that shot was below the belt 

Good day at work 

Regards


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## Guro Harold

:erg: :flame: :deadhorse

Could someone let someone else have the last word and close this thread, sheesh!!!


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## Emptyglass

Hi Palusut:

Respectfully, if it doesn't interest you, don't bother reading.  However the point is taken, we should either get back to Balintawak/Modern Arnis connections or stop bantering.

Rich P.:

As for escaping from work Rich, nah, I've got a big project due and am putting in some extra time off the clock. Therefore, I can afford to spend some time jabbering away like a fish wife here as I'm on my time now.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


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## Rocky

Tim H. Wrote.



> This makes GM Bobby a 3rd generation student of Bacon. Ted Buot was a 1st generation student and was there for much of the history. In addition he is also related to Bacon and made it easier to find out about family history. As in the game pass it on, each time a story is told by a new person the facts start to lose their integrity.




 How right you are, you can see how things "stories" change within a single generation. I have been having this argument for the past 10 years on the internet. Gm Tabaoda initially called his art Original Balintawak, when he first started teaching in the U.S. After a very heated debate back and forth, I informed him that GM Buot was alive and well and in fact my Master, he actually called GM Buot, it is becuase of this dialog between Gm Tadoada and myself that I think he renamed his art Balintawak Cuentada, becuase of his respect for Gm Buot. It seems other sometimes have an agenda to stir things up. Gm Tobaoda, Gm Buot have no anomosity towards each other, nor do I towards Gm Tobaoda as some have often tried to insinuate, I have an open invitation to train with Gm Taboada anytime, in fact someday I think you may see us doing a seminar together. Gm Taboada earned his position, as did Gm Buot.



 This argument was settled between Gm Buot GM Taboada and myself almost 10 yrs ago so let it go!!! of course in a few years with the new crop of students in various camps I am sure that this will start all over again.

  I think a few years ago people were trying  to cash in on the up and coming Balintawak craze, Remy finally let it known that Balintawak was the art that taught him most about fighting so everyone wanted to get in on it. Some with true honest and good intentions and others just to say they were doing it. I was calling various people, as I thought it my duty back in the 80's and 90s  that made claims to be doing original Balintawak, most were nice people who after we talked and they found out that Gm Buot was alive and well and that I was no fly by night they would then say oh well I guess you could call us modified or grouped or this version or that version, which was perfectly aceptable, in fact one of the guys Michael Zimmer from Van Cuver B.C a very nice guy I recommend training with, came to Detroit and we palyed and I introduced him to Gm Buot with whom he was just mesmerized by. Ends up after talking to him, that his Gm Dom Lopez,  was one of the students that Gm Buot taught at the club on Balintawak street. Gm Lopez was also at a famous duel that GGM Bacon had, in fact he bandaged GGM Bacons arm up.

  It is very important to me that Original Balintawak keeps its liniage and history straight, and not fall into the mess so many other arts have.

  But in the end all of the various Balintawak versions are testiments to the exceptional abilityies of the the man at the center of it all, GGM Anciong Ba'con.

 Someday I think the same will be said about GM Presas, eventually their will be many variations of his art, but at the center, there will always be GM Remy Amador Presas.


Rocky


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## Guro Harold

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *Hi Palusut:
> 
> Respectfully, if it doesn't interest you, don't bother reading.  However the point is taken, we should either get back to Balintawak/Modern Arnis connections or stop bantering.
> *



Hi Rich,

Please do not include me in this snapping/snipping turtle" war that is going on.

The Balintawak/Modern Arnis Topic was of interest to me, the bickering does not interest me one bit.

I did not reply to take sides but to add the reminder again that MartialTalk is for "friendly discussion." 

Best regards,

Harold


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## Emptyglass

Hi Harold:

I didn't feel there was a war going on, just some lukewarm conversation. I still think the conversation is friendly, however there are disagreements on some points which may be misconstrued as animosity due to the impersonal medium of internet conversation. On my part, I just chalk it up to a healthy debate and still feel friendly. 

Thanks,

Rich Curren


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## Cruentus

Congrat's, morons. You have just successfully dragged GM Bobby Taboada's name through the mud with your games. I hope your happy. I doubt GM Taboada will be. I'll address you all one at a time, clearly, so you all will understand.

Richard Curren: You said, "We're small but we train quite a bit for people with day jobs (4-5 days a week, 2-5 hours a night)."

O.K....I have to question how your training is related to Balintawak. I clicked on your link and I searhced around. First off, Bobby Ladra doesn't teach balintawak. He teaches Kalirada Arnis De Mano. This is a hybrid art based off Taboada's Balintawak Sayoc Kali, and Tulisan Arnis. This is great, and I am glad your training in it, but this is hardly pure Balintawak. Your a generation removed from Taboada, who is a generation removed from Anciong. Plus, the class schedule listed is Wednesdays and Fridays, one hour each day.

This hardly makes it credable for you to state that you train 2-5 hours a night 4-5 days a week period, especially not in Balintawak.

Now, I am sure you get good training in from Mr. Ladra, and I am not trying to discredit that. I am questioning your Balintawak knowledge, however. So...instead of posting with the undertone that "I know something you don't know," how about listening and learning from others with more experience, and who are not as far removed from the source (Anciong Bacon) then you.

Tim Kashino: I don't care about one or 2 seminars that you've done in the past. You don't train Balintawak from Taboada or anyone else any more then I train in Pekiti or Thai Boxing because I have had a couple of seminars. Plus, your gone all the time in places (like italy) where you get virtually no eskrima training. Your far removed. Now...when called out you admitted this, but when you first posted you posted with this err of "I know something you don't know." In fact...you do that a lot. Stop it. It's childish and annoying. And so is your other "implications" such as "frivolous time on the internet" and other issues.

Your inexperienced regarding Balintawak, and in this case your way over your head. So..how about you open YOUR mind and listen to others who are more experienced.

Dr. Barber: Welcome back. Your an idiot. Read my link.

Also...I've done my research. Watching video's of GM Bobby Taboada and attending 3 camps in 3 years is hardly enough of anything to claim knowledge on history of GM Taboada, on Balintawak, or to know significant portions of the art. Your claims (and your sad attempts to discredit Ted Buot's students) have only caused Mr. Taboada's credablility to get dragged through the mud unnessicarily. You don't know your facts for one. For 2, none of us (GM Buots students) take issue with GM Taboada. None of us wanted to drag his name through the mud...that was your doing.

Paul Martin: Aren't you the representative for the Buffalo area for Taboada's Balintawak Cuentada? You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not going to try to discredit or question your training in Taboada's art, but I am going to say that GM Taboada is in North Carolina. Let's just say that you don't get to see him everyday. Let's just also say that because of this, you don't have all the facts regarding Anciong Bacon, Balintawak, or even GM Taboada himself. But, because of all the game playing...look what happend in Rocky's post? Now his name has been run through the mud and it is partially YOUR fault. I doubt Mr. Taboada is going to be happy with this.

So, to you 4, nice going @$$holes. You have all been up to your little games again, or so it seems, and it resulted in you dragging a good mans name (Bobby Taboada) through the mud. And don't blame it on Buot's students this time. We all knew Taboada's history regarding Anciong, and none of us wanted to smeer anything on the net. But, when you guys forced the issue, this history was brought up. It is your fault. So...are you done playing stupid games yet?

Also, for more information, make sure you read my new thread:

(* Link removed - Rich Parsons 10/27/03 *)

Clean up your act, fella's.

Sincerely,

Paul Janulis


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## arnisador

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful. Name-calling in particular is inappropriate on MartialTalk.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Tgace

Man oh man 

Color me puzzled but could someone explain how the posts in this thread came to this? I keep looking at it and cant see why.


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## Rich Parsons

If anyone feels the need to reply, please contact me the with contents and the Moderator Team will review it for Approval or Denial.

If anyone wishes to continue the Similarites and or differences of Balintawak Families and or Modern Arnis Please start a new thread for positive discussion.

Rich Parsons
MT Moderator


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## arnisador

We have removed a thread by *PAUL* and another thread that commented on it.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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