# Jion vs Ge-Baek vs Koryo



## Kinghercules (Feb 20, 2012)

It took me a while to post this because Ive been searching thru out this form to see if this was already asked before I post this.
So if Ive missed it.....my bad.

The person that I had trained under was GM Ki Whang Kim and he taught Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do.  GM Kim knew some of the Korean master from back in the day when TKD got started. In fact he use to teach Palgwes & Taegueks back in the day but decided that they werent a good idea and stuck to the Okinawan forms that he had learned in Japan.  GM Ki Whang Kim once said _*"Its the quality of the froms not the quantity."*
_
So my question is this.....*Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms?* 

I picked Jion, Ge-Beak and Koryo because they are the 1st dan BB forms (under GM Kim Jion was a 3rd dan form but I learned it as a 1st dan) that we can compare.  Ive worked at  WTF and ITF schools and as I was learning their forms to teach them it was hard for me to figure out *why* they were doing them and the head instructors couldnt explain to me what were the reason for them to do the forms (which I found funny and sad).

So like I said Ive been looking on here for the meaning behind Koryo and Ge-Beak.  And I dont mean the made up crap about it dating back to ancient Korea.  

For us, those of us that do the traditional TKD & TSD forms...._(this is why I argue that ITF and WTF and ATA is not traditional TKD. Tradition is what you do for *generations*.  It is what has been passed down from person to person from generation to generation.  It hasnt or it JUST had been one generation for ITF, WTF and ATA!!!)_....ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.

So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you?  For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form.  They say its 400 to 500 yrs old.  I never liked doing forms until I was told why.  GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work. GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion all the time before I competed and he told me that him and Mike Warren use to always do Jion before they competed in tournaments. Why?  Because it was for conditioning.

Maybe the schools that Ive worked at the instructors didnt think it was improtant to know why or were never taught the meaning and reasons for doing Koryo, Ge-Beak, Eui Am, Kumgang and the rest of them.  For us we were all ways taught why we were doing our forms.  When we were doin the Pians we were constantly told that these forms come from the higher forms and we have to master them to be able to master the higher forms.

Now a 2nd question comes to mind.  As GM Kim once said _"Its the quality of the froms not the quantity."_  So which forms are of a better quality: Koryo, Jion or Ge-Beak?


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## MSUTKD (Feb 20, 2012)

PLEASE, don't feed the troll!


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## dancingalone (Feb 20, 2012)

> a 2nd question comes to mind. As GM Kim once said _"Its the quality of the froms not the quantity." So which forms are of a better quality: Koryo, Jion or Ge-Beak?_




Quality is a subjective term the way you asked your question.  Most will answer with whatever form they currently practice, as it is rare for a taekwondoin to know and practice all three pattern sets, Kukkiwon, Shotokan/old kwan, and Chang Hon, to a high enough level in each style where they would be aware of what each form is supposed to teach and be able to provide even a fair subjective comparison.

If you like Jion for the solidity and directness many Japanese stylists perform it with, there is really nothing that keeps you from practicing Koryo and Gae Baek in the same way.  I would not myself since I like a lighter, birdlike feeling when running Gae Beck, but certainly I could drop into deeper stances and interpret more staccato rhythm with it as in Jion if desired.  

Perhaps your question should be worded differently if you want to get more answers, such as how should Koryo and Gae Baek be performed respectively?  And why?  Such as how some parts of your post started to discuss, before the stray 'provocative' thoughts crept in.


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## Kinghercules (Feb 20, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Quality is a subjective term the way you asked your question.  Most will answer with whatever form they currently practice, as it is rare for a taekwondoin to know and practice all three pattern sets, Kukkiwon, Shotokan/old kwan, and Chang Hon, to a high enough level in each style where they would be aware of what each form is supposed to teach and be able to provide even a fair subjective comparison.
> 
> If you like Jion for the solidity and directness many Japanese stylists perform it with, there is really nothing that keeps you from practicing Koryo and Gae Baek in the same way.  I would not myself since I like a lighter, birdlike feeling when running Gae Beck, but certainly I could drop into deeper stances and interpret more staccato rhythm with it as in Jion if desired.
> 
> Perhaps your question should be worded differently if you want to get more answers, such as how should Koryo and Gae Baek be performed respectively?  And why?  Such as how some parts of your post started to discuss, before the stray 'provocative' thoughts crept in.



I dont like the way the Japanese do their forms.  To me they're too robotic.  I was taught to be more fluent with the movements. 

You're right....now that I think about it.  The only times Ive had that discussion was with ppl that knew all 3 forms.


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## dancingalone (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I dont like the way the Japanese do their forms.  To me they're too robotic.  I was taught to be more fluent with the movements.



Plenty of Japanese stylists run their kata with fluidity.  You can't really generalize considering the heterogeneous nature of karate.  

<shrugs>  If you like fluency or fluidity, certainly there are other kata from the Moo Duk Kwan canon that might express that quality more.  Like Rohai/Lohai perhaps.



Kinghercules said:


> You're right....now that I think about it.  The only times Ive had that discussion was with ppl that knew all 3 forms.



So presumably as someone who practices all three forms, why don't you tell us what you think each form should teach?


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 20, 2012)

Master Cole has a great understanding of the kukkiwon curriculum, and the history, philosophy and meanings behind the forms that they practice.  I would be interested to hear more.  I also know there are many on here that have a great deal of knowledge about the ITF curriculum and the history, philosophy and meanings of the ITF's forms.  I think this could be an interesting discussion, as long as it remains open minded and courteous.  

From my perspective, we teach Naihanchi Cho Dan and Naihanchi E Dan at 1st dan.  These forms are more focused on close quarter combat and developing power with minimal movement.  All forms prior to the Naihanchi's in our curriculum focus on ground reactive force generation and waist/hip torque.  The Naihanchi forms require this generation with significantly less motion/movement.  I make the comparison to the "3 inch punch vs. reverse punch;" both are powerful, but you need to learn the mechanics behind the reverse punch before you can master the 3 inch punch.  

  It details close range offensive, defensive, and grappling techniques.  These are areas of focus that aren't stressed much in the forms earlier in our curriculum (pyung ahns/pinans/heians and Bassai).  

The form came to Okinawa via Tomari Te by Sokon Matsumura who learned it from a Chinese man living in Tomari at that time.  It has been said that the Naihanchi forms are derived from White Crane Kung Fu.  Taiwanese White Crane, a.k.a. Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing) has a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form  includes the same sweeping action found in Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.

The form is also taught in Shuri Te (which is how it found itself in Shotokan and Shudokan, thus the MDK).


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## Kinghercules (Feb 20, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Master Cole has a great understanding of the kukkiwon curriculum, and the history, philosophy and meanings behind the forms that they practice.  I would be interested to hear more.  I also know there are many on here that have a great deal of knowledge about the ITF curriculum and the history, philosophy and meanings of the ITF's forms.  I think this could be an interesting discussion, as long as it remains open minded and courteous.
> 
> From my perspective, we teach Naihanchi Cho Dan and Naihanchi E Dan at 1st dan.  These forms are more focused on close quarter combat and developing power with minimal movement.  All forms prior to the Naihanchi's in our curriculum focus on ground reactive force generation and waist/hip torque.  The Naihanchi forms require this generation with significantly less motion/movement.  I make the comparison to the "3 inch punch vs. reverse punch;" both are powerful, but you need to learn the mechanics behind the reverse punch before you can master the 3 inch punch.
> 
> ...



Yeah I like Naihanchi. For Ki Whang Kim Niahanchi 1 was taught at brown belt level and 2 was another 1st dan form we learned.  I was told also that they are forms for ground and close fighting.


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## Kinghercules (Feb 20, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Plenty of Japanese stylists run their kata with fluidity.  You can't really generalize considering the heterogeneous nature of karate.
> 
> <shrugs>  If you like fluency or fluidity, certainly there are other kata from the Moo Duk Kwan canon that might express that quality more.  Like Rohai/Lohai perhaps.
> 
> ...



I dont practice those forms.  I learned Koryo and Ge-Beak out of necessity.


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## dancingalone (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I dont practice those forms.  I learned Koryo and Ge-Beak out of necessity.



Gae Baek was the hyung I learned long ago as part of my 2nd dan TKD requirements.  We didn't perform it on a mono-count rhythm seen so often today.  The form requires the ability to hit stances quickly and concisely along with tight control of the hand and arm positioning since there are body spinning and quick kicking that magnifies any inefficiency one might have in those aspects.  This is one of those forms where nothing really looks that difficult in isolation, but if you can perform it without looking sloppy, you have some real skill and hours of practice behind you.  It's a little like Chinto/Gankaku in that respect.


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## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> It took me a while to post this because Ive been searching thru out this form to see if this was already asked before I post this.
> So if Ive missed it.....my bad.
> 
> The person that I had trained under was GM Ki Whang Kim and he taught Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do.  GM Kim knew some of the Korean master from back in the day when TKD got started. In fact he use to teach Palgwes & Taegueks back in the day but decided that they werent a good idea and stuck to the Okinawan forms that he had learned in Japan.  GM Ki Whang Kim once said _*"Its the quality of the froms not the quantity."*_


_
I never met any American born practitioner that spoke for GM KIM Ki Whang. Are you unique, or are there other American born practitioners that speak for him as well?  BTW, what was the date when he passed away?
_


Kinghercules said:


> So my question is this.....*Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms? *



Personally I learned, practice and teach the Kukkiwon Poomsae because my teachers teacher, GM LEE Chong Woo and "Taekwondo Jidokwan, Korea" recommends it. I trust their judgement. I have a lot of additional confidence in their recommendation as I realize that all the other Kwan's, and their knowledgeable seniors, also recommend the Kukkiwon curriculum, a curriculum with they all jointly participated in creating. 



Kinghercules said:


> I picked Jion, Ge-Beak and Koryo because they are the 1st dan BB forms (under GM Kim Jion was a 3rd dan form but I learned it as a 1st dan) that we can compare.  Ive worked at  WTF and ITF schools and as I was learning their forms to teach them it was hard for me to figure out *why* they were doing them and the head instructors couldnt explain to me what were the reason for them to do the forms (which I found funny and sad).



I don't know what to say, maybe explain that is is funny and sad to GM Holloway, his answer would be better than mine.



Kinghercules said:


> So like I said Ive been looking on here for the meaning behind Koryo and Ge-Beak.  And I dont mean the made up crap about it dating back to ancient Korea.



Can you provide details of what you are talking about?  Specifically, point by point, then maybe we can discuss it, in detail. Thanks.



Kinghercules said:


> For us, those of us that do the traditional TKD & TSD forms...._(this is why I argue that ITF and WTF and ATA is not traditional TKD. Tradition is what you do for *generations*.  It is what has been passed down from person to person from generation to generation.  It hasnt or it JUST had been one generation for ITF, WTF and ATA!!!)_....ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.



There is no such thing as "traditional" Taekwondo as Taekwondo has been in a continuous state of evolution since the name was accepted. Taekwondo has not sat in one frozen state long enough to be considered traditional.  However, Taekwondo does have it's traditions.  As for "Tang Soo Do", the same applies, Tang Soo Do has an continues to evolve from the time of the first use of that Korean term, to this very day.

Also, it appears to me that you are confusing the WTF with the Kukkiwon.  Which one are you really talking about here?



Kinghercules said:


> So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you?  For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form.



Your Sabumnim teaches you the principle, not the form. The form provides us a practice routine to practice that principle when our instructor is not around.  Conditioning, power and strength are not uniquely  applied Jion Kata, those qualities and many other, are applied in many forms.



Kinghercules said:


> They say its 400 to 500 yrs old.



How sure are you?  Someone could say that what "they" say is "crap." What then?



Kinghercules said:


> I never liked doing forms until I was told why.  GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work.



Which battle fields? By whom?



Kinghercules said:


> GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion all the time before I competed and he told me that him and Mike Warren use to always do Jion before they competed in tournaments. Why?  Because it was for conditioning.



Was this before sparring, or forms?  When you were doing Jion before competitions, in what way do you think it was conditioning you? 



Kinghercules said:


> Maybe the schools that Ive worked at the instructors didnt think it was improtant to know why or were never taught the meaning and reasons for doing Koryo, Ge-Beak, Eui Am, Kumgang and the rest of them.



Maybe. Instead of asking us about those instructors seeming lack of knowledge, I recommend that you take it up with them, after all, if they are ignorant of their martial art as you say, you might actually help them to dig deeper and find out what all the stuff they do actually means, right?



Kinghercules said:


> For us we were all ways taught why we were doing our forms.  When we were doin the Pians we were constantly told that these forms come from the higher forms and we have to master them to be able to master the higher forms.



OK. In your mind, what would you consider mastery of a form?




Kinghercules said:


> Now a 2nd question comes to mind.  As GM Kim once said _"Its the quality of the froms not the quantity."_  So which forms are of a better quality: Koryo, Jion or Ge-Beak?



I practiced martial arts in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's & 10's, (wow, that is within 6 decades) I learned those three forms, and the forms that accompany them.  To me, one is not better than the other. It is the knowledge and skill one has while reviewing the form that is of better, or lesser quality.


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## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

_Originally Posted by *SahBumNimRush* 


Master Cole has a great understanding of the kukkiwon curriculum, and the history, philosophy and meanings behind the forms that they practice. I would be interested to hear more. I also know there are many on here that have a great deal of knowledge about the ITF curriculum and the history, philosophy and meanings of the ITF's forms. I think this could be an interesting discussion, as long as it remains open minded and courteous. 

From my perspective, we teach Naihanchi Cho Dan and Naihanchi E Dan at 1st dan. These forms are more focused on close quarter combat and developing power with minimal movement. All forms prior to the Naihanchi's in our curriculum focus on ground reactive force generation and waist/hip torque. The Naihanchi forms require this generation with significantly less motion/movement. I make the comparison to the "3 inch punch vs. reverse punch;" both are powerful, but you need to learn the mechanics behind the reverse punch before you can master the 3 inch punch. 

It details close range offensive, defensive, and grappling techniques. These are areas of focus that aren't stressed much in the forms earlier in our curriculum (pyung ahns/pinans/heians and Bassai). 

The form came to Okinawa via Tomari Te by Sokon Matsumura who learned it from a Chinese man living in Tomari at that time. It has been said that the Naihanchi forms are derived from White Crane Kung Fu. Taiwanese White Crane, a.k.a. Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing) has a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form includes the same sweeping action found in Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.

The form is also taught in Shuri Te (which is how it found itself in Shotokan and Shudokan, thus the MDK).

_



Kinghercules said:


> Yeah I like Naihanchi. For Ki Whang Kim Niahanchi 1 was taught at brown belt level and 2 was another 1st dan form we learned. I was told also that they are forms for ground and close fighting.




Niahanchi, Tekki, or Chulki 1, 2 & 3. Those were my favorites of those related forms.  In your opinion, What principles should one be using while reviewing those 3 forms, meaning what is actually happening, philosophically and physically between those actions of movement and the ending technique shapes that are created by specific actions?


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## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Gae Baek was the hyung I learned long ago as part of my 2nd dan TKD requirements.  We didn't perform it on a mono-count rhythm seen so often today.  The form requires the ability to hit stances quickly and concisely along with tight control of the hand and arm positioning since there are body spinning and quick kicking that magnifies any inefficiency one might have in those aspects.  This is one of those forms where nothing really looks that difficult in isolation, but if you can perform it without looking sloppy, you have some real skill and hours of practice behind you.  It's a little like Chinto/Gankaku in that respect.




Which makes comparing the three, and odd comparison to me since Jion only has two basic front kicks.


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## dancingalone (Feb 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Which makes comparing the three, and odd comparison to me since Jion only has two basic front kicks.



To me also, but I'm rolling with it.  You likely know this already, but Jion is around a 3rd-2nd kyu pattern in Shotokan karate.  Nonetheless, it's considered one of the quintessential Shotokan kata.


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## TKDinAK (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> So my question is this.....*Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms?*



For what it's worth... which isn't much at this point, since I am still just a green belt and my school is ITF... my instructor tells us that if we wish to get better at any aspect of our TKD skillset... power, balance, focus, spirit... etc... we should work on our patterns.

On a personal note, I enjoy patterns... and work hard at them. I know that by the time I am through Chon Ji, Dan Gun, Do San and Won Hyo, I am breathing hard and sweating profusely.


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Niahanchi, Tekki, or Chulki 1, 2 & 3. Those were my favorites of those related forms.  In your opinion, What principles should one be using while reviewing those 3 forms, meaning what is actually happening, philosophically and physically between those actions of movement and the ending technique shapes that are created by specific actions?



I can chime in on this, but I'm interested in hearing what Mr. Hercules has to say about the subject.. .


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## Kinghercules (Feb 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> _
> I never met any American born practitioner that spoke for GM KIM Ki Whang. Are you unique, or are there other American born practitioners that speak for him as well?  BTW, what was the date when he passed away?_


Oh really?  Well allow me to introduce myself then.
I can introduce you to Albert Cheeks, Kyu Sang, John Critzos, Marcella Byrd, Ray Lee.......there're a lot of Ki Whang Kim's students in *America* (so I assumin that you know Korean students then) that can speak for him.  
He passed back in '93 in Sept.








mastercole said:


> I practiced martial arts in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's & 10's, (wow, that is within 6 decades) I learned those three forms, and the forms that accompany them.  To me, one is not better than the other. It is the knowledge and skill one has while reviewing the form that is of better, or lesser quality.



You know what......this is all you had to say.


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## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Oh really?  Well allow me to introduce myself then.
> I can introduce you to Albert Cheeks, Kyu Sang, John Critzos, Marcella Byrd, Ray Lee.......there're a lot of Ki Whang Kim's students in *America* (so I assumin that you know Korean students then) that can speak for him. He passed back in '93 in Sept.



OK, please, introduce yourself. I am Al Cole from Cleveland, Ohio USA, and you are?

I was planning to attend, however changing circumstances got in the way. I did though send my sympathies and seniors showed me some photos of attendees. 




Kinghercules said:


> You know what......this is all you had to say.



I did have some questions for you though, they are back in my original response to your comments. If care to discuss them, I think we can learn a lot more about the subject at hand.


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## Kinghercules (Feb 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> OK, please, introduce yourself. I am Al Cole from Cleveland, Ohio USA, and you are?
> 
> I was planning to attend, however changing circumstances got in the way. I did though send my sympathies and seniors showed me some photos of attendees.
> 
> ...



Yeah I know....I ignored your questions.  You're like a philosophy prof.  You wanna analyze every sentence that a person says and try to find fault in it.  Example, lets take the one I mentioned about Jion bein 500yrs old.  You wanna know what if the person that told me was lyin by askin me "how sure are you".  IDK about you but I was always told that if you cant trust or believe in you instructor then you dont need to be trainin with them.  Now since my teacher told me the story behind Jion, about it being 500yrs old and comin from China, I believed him and with access to the internet you can look it up yourself.  Since neither one of us lived back then it just comes down to whether or not you believe it.  Dont question me....question the ppl that has done the research. Question Itosu, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gichin_FunakoshiFunakoshi or Matsumura.  They're the ones that started the "sayin".


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## Kinghercules (Feb 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Was this before sparring, or forms?  When you were doing Jion before competitions, in what way do you think it was conditioning you?



I didnt say that Jion was the *only* form for power or conditioning.  I just used it as an example.
In what way do I *know* that Jion was conditioning me?  You havent done Jion....have you, Master?
We do this form before the tournament.  GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion 6 times in a row, with no brake in between at full power.  His theory is "if you can do Jion 6x in a row then you are in shape."  He told me how Ki Whang use to make his do Jion 5x eryday before class.
I was told that Jion is for power and conditioning.  You develop power and strength when you do it correctly.  As martial artist we dont focus on lifting alot of weight get strength but as a master you know this already.
Dont you......Master? :mst:


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## StudentCarl (Feb 21, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> PLEASE, don't feed the troll!



With the rude comments, it's looking more like MSUTKD was right.


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## mastercole (Feb 21, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Yeah I know....I ignored your questions.


 
I answered your questions, but you ignore mine. OK.



Kinghercules said:


> You're like a philosophy prof.



You did state that you were looking for the meaning behind Koryo, and it's meaning is philosophical. My questions though were not particularly philosophical, but, we could avoid the whole philosophy thing and just keep it in technical terms if you like, that is if you really want to discuss it at all I mean this is a message board, where we type out messages to each other.



Kinghercules said:


> You wanna analyze every sentence that a person says and try to find fault in it.



If you are concerned that someone (like a Professor) might question your "arguments", you might want to do a little more research before you make argumentive statements. Especially since you like to write sentences like this "_(this is why I argue that ITF and WTF and ATA is not traditional TKD. Tradition is what you do for*generations*. It is what has been passed down from person to person from generation to generation. It hasnt or it JUST had been one generation for ITF, WTF and ATA!!!)....ok back to what I was saying...LOL"
_
Oh, and this one: "So like I said Ive been looking on here for the meaning behind Koryo and Ge-Beak. And I dont mean the made up crap about it dating back to ancient Korea."



Kinghercules said:


> Example, lets take the one I mentioned about Jion bein 500yrs old.  You wanna know what if the person that told me was lyin by askin me "how sure are you".


 
Maybe they just thought your information was incorrect and ask if you had any other details -- other than hearsay?



Kinghercules said:


> IDK about you but I was always told that if you cant trust or believe in you instructor then you dont need to be trainin with them.


 
In my post to you, the one you are ignoring, I wrote: "Personally I learned, practice and teach the Kukkiwon Poomsae because my teachers teacher, GM LEE Chong Woo and "Taekwondo Jidokwan, Korea" recommends it. I trust their judgement. I have a lot of additional confidence in their recommendation as I realize that all the other Kwan's, and their knowledgeable seniors, also recommend the Kukkiwon curriculum, a curriculum with they all jointly participated in creating."



Kinghercules said:


> Now since my teacher told me the story behind Jion, about it being 500yrs old and comin from China, I believed him and with access to the internet you can look it up yourself.  Since neither one of us lived back then it just comes down to whether or not you believe it.



So it's not cool to ask you for proof of what your teacher says, we can either believe it or not with you supplying no facts to back it up, but it is cool for you to state what my teachers say is "crap", again, with no facts from you to back it up.



Kinghercules said:


> Dont question me....question the ppl that has done the research. Question Itosu, Funakoshi or Matsumura.  They're the ones that started the "sayin".



I can see you don't like to be questioned, that is why you are "arguing" AROUND my questions, and not addressing the subject at hand.  But you are the one making the argument, you said so your self, that is why I questioned your statements.


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## mastercole (Feb 21, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I didnt say that Jion was the *only* form for power or conditioning.  I just used it as an example.
> In what way do I *know* that Jion was conditioning me?  You havent done Jion....have you, Master?
> We do this form before the tournament.  GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion 6 times in a row, with no brake in between at full power.  His theory is "if you can do Jion 6x in a row then you are in shape."  He told me how Ki Whang use to make his do Jion 5x eryday before class.
> I was told that Jion is for power and conditioning.  You develop power and strength when you do it correctly.  As martial artist we dont focus on lifting alot of weight get strength but as a master you know this already.
> Dont you......Master? :mst:



Actually I did not know what you were going to write. But thanks for answering my question.


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> So my question is this.....*Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms?*



Because it's there.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 22, 2012)

Part one of two. 
"(1) ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.

(2) So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you? For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form. They say its 400 to 500 yrs old. I never liked doing forms until I was told why. (3) GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work."
1. If you think that Ge-Baek as a "Higher Form" was created from a lower form you would need to explain further. Certainly higher forms contain techniques found in lower forms. So, what? 
2. As far as lauding a particular form with regard developing conditioning, power and strengthening, so what? You could say this about most forms. It would be a function of how you practice, not what you practice. 
3. I think anyone who says the techniques in an empty hand pattern were tried and tested in battle either needs a reality check or is referring to an extremely limited sample. For thousands of years, long before empty hand systems were popularized soldiers going into battle had weapons. To think that a weaponless trained force could prevail is a silly notion. 
I cannot address the relative "Quality" of the forms. I dont think the question can be answered.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 22, 2012)

Part Two of Two
Now, to Ge Baek and what it teaches specifically and generally. (Note: in the past if I have referred to Chang Hon parameters some have commented that other systems do this as well. My comments are not meant to imply that anything is exclusively Chang Hon.)
In the Chang Ho series, patterns often build on previous patterns. At the lowest levels yu learn a quarter turn ,t hen half, then 3/4 then full, as well as staring with basic kicks and progressing upwards. (Again , not a statement to be taken as absolute) For each pattern in the encyclopedia each "Addittional" (new) Technicque (can often be a new variation) is explicitly stated. 
For Gae Baek they are: Low Twisting Kick, Double Arc Hand High Block, Siting Stance Back Fist Strike, 
Sitting Stance Scooping Block, Sitting Stance 9 Shape Block, L Stance Middle Knuckle fist Punch, X Stance Double Forearm High Block. Sitting Stance Reverse Knifehand Low Guarding Block, Sitting Stance Low Knifehand Guarding Block, 
However, learning the techniques and their application for this (Dare I suggest any pattern) is only the beginning of the process. Distance and direction of the motion and application needs to be understood. 
Still, as I have pointed out on other threads, there is still another level of understanding including and beyond the alternate applications universe. That level involves learning the motions / movement (including stepping shifting etc.) and being able to perform them in an efficient, well balanced, fast and powerful manner. It is the stated applications that facilitate how you learn to move. Having accomplished that, then how you utilize and morph the motion is limited only by practical considerations. 
The different ways the various techniques of patterns are strung together will provide different ways of moving to be practiced and adapted as necessary. 
Also, as previously mentioned, this is no a new concept. Thin "Karate Kid" Wax On Wax Off" 
The lesson was the motion. After the motion became second nature, an application was shown.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 22, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Part one of two.
> "(1) ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.
> 
> (2) So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you? For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form. They say its 400 to 500 yrs old. I never liked doing forms until I was told why. (3) GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work."
> ...



Its no secret that Gen Choi trained in Japan but when he made the ITF forms there was a lacked creativity.  Thruout all the lower forms you can see the Pians and how they have been chopped up and rearranged.  Then when you get up to the BB forms you can still see the chopped up Okinawan forms with extra moves added in.  To me....its over the top.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 22, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Part Two of Two
> Now, to Ge Baek and what it teaches specifically and generally. (Note: in the past if I have referred to Chang Hon parameters some have commented that other systems do this as well. My comments are not meant to imply that anything is exclusively Chang Hon.)
> In the Chang Ho series, patterns often build on previous patterns. At the lowest levels yu learn a quarter turn ,t hen half, then 3/4 then full, as well as staring with basic kicks and progressing upwards. (Again , not a statement to be taken as absolute) For each pattern in the encyclopedia each "Addittional" (new) Technicque (can often be a new variation) is explicitly stated.
> For Gae Baek they are: Low Twisting Kick, Double Arc Hand High Block, Siting Stance Back Fist Strike,
> ...



Your reply is appreciated.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Actually I did not know what you were going to write. But thanks for answering my question.



Seriously?


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 22, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> With the rude comments, it's looking more like MSUTKD was right.



Getta back bone.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Maybe *they* just thought your information was incorrect and ask if you had any other details -- other than hearsay?



Wait a min.....who's "they"?
You're the one who brought it up.
Are there come other post that Ive missed in here....master?:hmm:


----------



## mastercole (Feb 22, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Its no secret that Gen Choi trained in Japan but when he made the ITF forms there was a lacked creativity.  Thruout all the lower forms you can see the Pians and how they have been chopped up and rearranged.  Then when you get up to the BB forms you can still see the chopped up Okinawan forms with extra moves added in.  To me....its over the top.



Who was CHOI Hong Hi's teacher in Japan?  Are you sure CHOI Hong Hi made the ITF forms?


----------



## mastercole (Feb 22, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Wait a min.....who's "they"?
> You're the one who brought it up.
> Are there come other post that Ive missed in here....master?:hmm:



I don't know if you missed it, I just think you may have forgot what you wrote. But no problem, I can go back for you, copy and paste here in my post, for your convenience. Hopefully you can read it over and it will stimulate your memory.

_ Originally Posted by *Kinghercules* 


Example, lets take the one I mentioned about Jion bein 500yrs old. You wanna know what if the person that told me was lyin by askin me "how sure are you".

_

Maybe they just thought your information was incorrect and ask if you had any other details -- other than hearsay?


----------



## mastercole (Feb 22, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Getta back bone.



Actually you are the one who disappeared and did not respond to my questions. But don't worry, I do have some good advise for you. Why not run through 5 or 6 reps of Jion Kata to get yourself ready since that has worked in the past, pull up a stool and get down to the business of discussing your opinions in the thread that you yourself started?  After all, this is a discussion forum.


----------



## jks9199 (Feb 22, 2012)

Things are getting a little harsh and aggressive for a website that touts itself as being "friendly."  Maybe we can rein things in a bit, OK?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Are you sure CHOI Hong Hi made the ITF forms?



Since you're so scrupulously correct about titles, I'm sure leaving off "General" or "GM" was an oversight.

It depends on how you define "made", I suppose. General Choi founded the ITF. He developed the Chang Hon forms. Did he do this entirely in a vaccum, with no input from other practitioners? Of course not. No more than Funakoshi Sensei "made" Karate alone. I don't believe it's ever been suggested that he did. GM PARK, Jung Tae, founder of the GTF and GM NAM Tae Hi, founder of Taekwon-Do in Vietnam were both (along with many others, I am sure) instrumental in the development of the forms. As the founder, the final decisions were made by General Choi, and the statement that he "made" the forms is not unreasonable.

Your posts in the past have made it clear that the ITF is something of an issue with you, but I'm sure you can manage to keep the discussion friendly, polite, and non-confrontational.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 22, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Since you're so scrupulously correct about titles, I'm sure leaving off "General" or "GM" was an oversight.



I know it may seem that way, but actually I am not, ask anyone who knows me personally.  



Dirty Dog said:


> It depends on how you define "made", I suppose. General Choi founded the ITF. He developed the Chang Hon forms. Did he do this entirely in a vaccum, with no input from other practitioners? Of course not. No more than Funakoshi Sensei "made" Karate alone. I don't believe it's ever been suggested that he did. GM PARK, Jung Tae, founder of the GTF and GM NAM Tae Hi, founder of Taekwon-Do in Vietnam were both (along with many others, I am sure) instrumental in the development of the forms. As the founder, the final decisions were made by General Choi, and the statement that he "made" the forms is not unreasonable.



I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed. 



Dirty Dog said:


> Your posts in the past have made it clear that the ITF is something of an issue with you, but I'm sure you can manage to keep the discussion friendly, polite, and non-confrontational.



This thread is not about issues surrounding ITF, I suggest we keep it on subject


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I know it may seem that way, but actually I am not, ask anyone who knows me personally.



Actually, looking back, it would appear that you're actually only scrupulous about titles for KKW-affiliated ranks. My mistake.



mastercole said:


> I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.



Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.



mastercole said:


> This thread is not about issues surrounding ITF, I suggest we keep it on subject



You asked a question about the ITF (or, if you wish to be pedantic, it's founder and it's forms). I presumed you wanted an answer. Given your history, perhaps I'd have been better off taking it for granted that you'd only want an answer if it coincided with your predjudicies.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 23, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, looking back, it would appear that you're actually only scrupulous about titles for KKW-affiliated ranks. My mistake.



I guess I could be "scrupulous" when discussing facts. However, personally I don't care who uses what titles.



Dirty Dog said:


> Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.



OK



Dirty Dog said:


> You asked a question about the ITF (or, if you wish to be pedantic, it's founder and it's forms). I presumed you wanted an answer.



You are stating I asked a question about the ITF.  What I actually asked was a question in regard to CHOI Hong Hi and the creation of Changhon forms, a time period well before the creation of the ITF. But make it out to be whatever you wish, or answer my question, or not, you choose.



Dirty Dog said:


> Given your history, perhaps I'd have been better off taking it for granted that you'd only want an answer if it coincided with your predjudicies.



I think Bob Hubbard just ask members here to stop this snipping?  I suggest you answer the questions I posed to you instead of turning this into a debate about what you perceive as my "history" and "prejudices."

To quote you: "but I'm sure you can manage to keep the discussion friendly, polite, and non-confrontational. "


----------



## Earl Weiss (Feb 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.



Well, everyone has their opinion. Two of the Oh Do Kwan members who were there and helped create the forms , Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo never seemd to think it unreasoneable. While they may have been the primary contributor to the forms (Hence strong Chung Do Kwan ties for gup forms) they explained the process as General Choi being the final developer / decision maker. 
Just read Steve Jobs Bio. He had lots of designers and engineers working for him. Some contributing the bulk of the work. He was the final decison maker.  Saying he "Made" the apple products would not be unreasoneable.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Feb 23, 2012)

Originally Posted by *mastercole* 

 
I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.
Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.



QUOTE]

OK, I am confused. Are you saying the Chang Hon forms were created before the Oh Do Kwan existed? 

Perhaps it is a timeline issue. How long after the 29th Infantry division was created was the Oh Do Kwan created.  I thought it was about at the same time?


----------



## andyjeffries (Feb 23, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Originally Posted by *mastercole*
> 
> 
> I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.
> ...



I think the confusion exists because you've quoted two people:

*Dirty Dog* General Choi founded the ITF. He developed the Chang Hon forms

*mastercole* I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.

*Dirty Dog* Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.

Mastercole is saying that the forms were an Oh Do Kwan thing, Dirty Dog seemed to imply that they were an ITF thing and later corrected it to Oh Do Kwan.

I don't believe anyone's claiming the forms were created before the Oh Do Kwan, it's just the way you've quoted it makes it read that way.

HTH.


----------



## Grenadier (Feb 23, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> To me also, but I'm rolling with it.  You likely know this already, but Jion is around a 3rd-2nd kyu pattern in Shotokan karate.  Nonetheless, it's considered one of the quintessential Shotokan kata.



The kata in the list of Kanku Dai, Bassai Dai, and Jion, are actually quite interchangeable at the brown belt through shodan level.  My dojo uses Bassai Dai and Kanku Dai as the "brown belt" level kata, and starts Jion at the shodan level, while I've seen other schools use Kanku Dai and Jion, or Bassai Dai and Jion as the brown belt level kata.  

As for the OP's assertion of Japanese Karate-ka performing kata in too robotic of a fashion, I'll simply have to disagree with him, since those who have excellent fundamentals will smooth out the transition between one move to the next, while still maintaining excellent focus and power.  Someone the likes of Kanazawa can easily demonstrate this:


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 23, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> The kata in the list of Kanku Dai, Bassai Dai, and Jion, are actually quite interchangeable at the brown belt through shodan level.  My dojo uses Bassai Dai and Kanku Dai as the "brown belt" level kata, and starts Jion at the shodan level, while I've seen other schools use Kanku Dai and Jion, or Bassai Dai and Jion as the brown belt level kata.



Out of curiosity does your dojo belong to a particular karate organization?


----------



## Grenadier (Feb 23, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Out of curiosity does your dojo belong to a particular karate organization?



Yes.  We're our own organization, but are also part of the Traditional Karate Do Federation (run by Bob Allen).


----------



## puunui (Feb 23, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> As for the OP's assertion of Japanese Karate-ka performing kata in too robotic of a fashion, I'll simply have to disagree with him, since those who have excellent fundamentals will smooth out the transition between one move to the next, while still maintaining excellent focus and power.  Someone the likes of Kanazawa can easily demonstrate this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4KPEjzwDvo



Before taekwondo, I studied shotokan karate. I felt that our kata training was robotic in the sense that we were all taught to do everything exactly the same way. There was no freedom of expression allowed. I also felt that the fundamental movements were unhealthy and eventually harmful, the extreme stances, knees over toes and that sort of thing. I want to say that Kanazawa Sensei visited our dojo when I was there, but I could be wrong. A lot of people visited back then. We knew they were famous, but we didn't really pay attention to names. I read that Asai Sensei felt the same way, that the JKA movements were fundamentally flawed and so he went about changing things to be more of a natural movement. If we had done it that way, perhaps I would have stayed with Shotokan. Comparing taekwondo to shotokan karate, the movements are natural and relaxed, unlike how I felt when practicing shotokan karate. I never learned Ge Baek or any ITF tul so I have no basis for comparison.


----------



## puunui (Feb 23, 2012)

Forgot to mention that I do appreciate my time in shotokan karate and all the japanese martial arts that I studied, because they gave me an eye for detail and sense of precision that was sometimes lacking in taekwondo in the past. Today's taekwondo is more precise, in my opinion, especially with respect to poomsae, which is a good thing.


----------



## puunui (Feb 23, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> Yes.  We're our own organization, but are also part of the Traditional Karate Do Federation (run by Bob Allen).



I don't know why I have it in my head that you were part of a different organization and a style different than shotokan. I guess it doesn't matter.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I don't know if you missed it, I just think you may have forgot what you wrote. But no problem, I can go back for you, copy and paste here in my post, for your convenience. Hopefully you can read it over and it will stimulate your memory.
> 
> _ Originally Posted by *Kinghercules*
> 
> ...


Again who is "they"?

My understanding of the word "they" is as follows:_used as third person pronoun serving as the plural of he, she, or it or referring to a group of two or more individuals not all of the same sex_. 

In my post I was talkin....to....you.  Here in my sentence the word "you" is referring back to the person that is replyin to this post, in particular, whom should be "mastercole"....i.e you.

In your reply to my post you said "Maybe *they*...." and Im askin you who are "they"?
Since it is only you and I that are goin back and forth here on this subject.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Who was CHOI Hong Hi's teacher in Japan?  Are you sure CHOI Hong Hi made the ITF forms?



Seriously?
Are you gonna make me go thru this.....master?


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Actually you are the one who disappeared and did not respond to my questions. But don't worry, I do have some good advise for you. Why not run through 5 or 6 reps of Jion Kata to get yourself ready since that has worked in the past, pull up a stool and get down to the business of discussing your opinions in the thread that you yourself started?  After all, this is a discussion forum.



LOL!
Hey I gotta life.
Its fun sittin on the internet talk crap but its money out there to get and I dont like bein broke.
And besides Im not an internet gangster or internet martial artist.
So the same bull I speak online Ill say to anyone in person.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 23, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> The kata in the list of Kanku Dai, Bassai Dai, and Jion, are actually quite interchangeable at the brown belt through shodan level.  My dojo uses Bassai Dai and Kanku Dai as the "brown belt" level kata, and starts Jion at the shodan level, while I've seen other schools use Kanku Dai and Jion, or Bassai Dai and Jion as the brown belt level kata.
> 
> As for the OP's assertion of Japanese Karate-ka performing kata in too robotic of a fashion, I'll simply have to disagree with him, since those who have excellent fundamentals will smooth out the transition between one move to the next, while still maintaining excellent focus and power.  Someone the likes of Kanazawa can easily demonstrate this:



Hirokazu Kanazawa is not robotic...I agree.
But when I made that statement I was not thinkin about him.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 23, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Again who is "they"?
> 
> My understanding of the word "they" is as follows:_used as third person pronoun serving as the plural of he, she, or it or referring to a group of two or more individuals not all of the same sex_.
> 
> ...



"They" is a hypothetical someone, just like I wrote. You might go back and read the post more carefully


----------



## mastercole (Feb 23, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Seriously?
> Are you gonna make me go thru this.....master?



You are the one that brought up the subject. I am not sure why you would open up the subject, then not want to go into it. But that's OK, I understand.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 23, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> LOL!
> Hey I gotta life.
> Its fun sittin on the internet talk crap but its money out there to get and I dont like bein broke.
> And besides Im not an internet gangster or internet martial artist.



Martial Talk is a martial arts discussion board *on the internet*. Folks discuss martial arts here.

To discuss all things gangster, try here: http://gangstersinc.ning.com/



Kinghercules said:


> So the same bull I speak online Ill say to anyone in person.



You've convinced me


----------



## mastercole (Feb 23, 2012)

OK, let's see if we can get the thread back on track, with some technical stuff.

I can't see doing Jion as a warm up before this type of sparring, which has a lot of kicking skills. 




I can see though that Jion might be a good warm up for this type of sparring, which is mostly hand skills.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 24, 2012)

Here is a Shorin-ryu version of Jion that I rather like.  The performer doesn't lock out his back leg in front stance, but that may not be a flaw in his style.

[yt]6crcS_Zr9S0[/yt]


----------



## puunui (Feb 24, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> Someone the likes of Kanazawa can easily demonstrate this:


. 

No disrespect to Kanazawa Sensei, but if he performed to that level at the WTF World Poomsae Championships, I do not think he would win today. Compare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOmWUCCLNlA&feature=related


----------



## Grenadier (Feb 24, 2012)

puunui said:


> I don't know why I have it in my head that you were part of a different organization and a style different than shotokan. I guess it doesn't matter.



We transitioned from a hybrid Wado system (that was more Shotokan than Wado) to "pure" Shotokan several years ago.  For me, it was more of a homecoming back to Shotokan anyways.  



As for the older guys matching up with today's competitors?  There really wouldn't be a contest, that today's competitors, who place a greater emphasis on speed and dynamics, as opposed to the older guys placing an emphasis on fundamental technique, would certainly win, by today's standards.  

I would not, however, necessarily choose a top level competitor's kata / poomsae (and the methods used) to use as a baseline.  To do so, could possibly de-emphasize fundamental technique, something that I simply prefer not to do.  Students' tendencies will naturally come out as time goes on, and as long as what they are doing is fundamentally correct, then so be it.  

I am not bashing these guys, though.  The top competitors the likes of Luca Valdesi, Michael Milon, etc., are all fantastic practitioners, and I'm pretty sure that they know (or knew) how the proper fundamentals are to be performed.  I simply wouldn't use their "for show" videos as a baseline.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Feb 24, 2012)

puunui said:


> .
> 
> No disrespect to Kanazawa Sensei, but if he performed to that level at the WTF World Poomsae Championships, I do not think he would win today. Compare:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOmWUCCLNlA&feature=related



Very impressive form and technique, but difficult to compare to Kanazawa Sensei, IMO, as the two forms are so very different.  As Grenedier stated, the two practitioners/generations appear (I say appear, because I am not very knowledgeable about either person in reference) to emphasize different aspects.


----------



## puunui (Feb 24, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> We transitioned from a hybrid Wado system (that was more Shotokan than Wado) to "pure" Shotokan several years ago.  For me, it was more of a homecoming back to Shotokan anyways.



The headquarters of your former style was right down the road from where I grew up, so I am familiar with it. We used to see them all the time at local tournaments. One difference was they did a lot of weapons, which we never learned in Shotokan. You still do weapons, or have you given that up?



Grenadier said:


> I would not, however, necessarily choose a top level competitor's kata / poomsae (and the methods used) to use as a baseline.  To do so, could possibly de-emphasize fundamental technique, something that I simply prefer not to do.



Right. So what we do in hawaii is utilize the kukkiwon dvd set and what is taught at the kukkiwon instructor's course as our baseline technical standard for general or regular students, but look to competitors like GM Dang above for inspiration on presentation tips and strategies, for competition purposes. 




Grenadier said:


> Students' tendencies will naturally come out as time goes on, and as  long as what they are doing is fundamentally correct, then so be it.



But I guess I never progressed far enough in shotokan to get that stage. When I was doing shotokan, they wanted us to do it exactly like each other, so we would look like a bunch of clones marching in a line. Of course we were just kids and maybe that had something to do with it, but I used to complain about it to my grandfather coming home from class. He said that in certain arts like painting there is a lineage where the object is to copy exactly what some other artist's work looked like and that the japanese martial arts were like that too. That concept, more than anything else, is what turned me off to the Japanese martial arts, the stifling of creative expression in favor of looking like you came off of an assembly line. I watch these shows on cable about how they make things in a factory, and I sometimes think to myself, "that could have been me, just another can of coke like the other five in a six pack." 

I never got that feeling from practicing any korean martial art, which is probably why I've stayed with it for so long.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 27, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> LOL!
> Hey I gotta life.
> Its fun sittin on the internet talk crap but its money out there to get and I dont like bein broke.


Well crap is probably the best description of what you are spewing out so far.  So kudos for nailing that.
I would recommend using the money you make to invest in a 'g' key so you can finally spell out your words correctly such 'sittinG' and 'beinG'.



> And besides Im not an internet gangster or internet martial artist.
> So the same bull I speak online Ill say to anyone in person.


Again...kudos for nailing it on the head about what you are talking about...bull, nothing factual.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Feb 27, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> I would recommend using the money you make to invest in a 'g' key so you can finally spell out your words correctly such 'sittinG' and 'beinG'.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ROTFLMAO


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Here is a Shorin-ryu version of Jion that I rather like.  The performer doesn't lock out his back leg in front stance, but that may not be a flaw in his style.
> 
> [yt]6crcS_Zr9S0[/yt]



Ive seen someone start off Jion like this and I kinda like it.
In some of GM Kanazawa's videos he dosent lock out his back leg in front stance either.  But Ive notice that with a lot of Shotokan practitioners. 
Maybe thats just how they do it.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Well crap is probably the best description of what you are spewing out so far.  So kudos for nailing that.
> I would recommend using the money you make to invest in a 'g' key so you can finally spell out your words correctly such 'sittinG' and 'beinG'.
> 
> 
> Again...kudos for nailing it on the head about what you are talking about...bull, nothing factual.



Hey thanks for the advice. 
But my "g" button on my computer works fine.
Since this is not a formal settin. I choose to type in Ebonics since I speak in Ebonics.
I always find it funny how white ppl always wanna criticize how I type as if dey type jus how dey speak.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Martial Talk is a martial arts discussion board *on the internet*. Folks discuss martial arts here.
> 
> To discuss all things gangster, try here: http://gangstersinc.ning.com/



LMFAO!!!!!
Ok....you got me wit that one!


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

mastercole said:


> OK, let's see if we can get the thread back on track, with some technical stuff.
> 
> I can't see doing Jion as a warm up before this type of sparring, which has a lot of kicking skills.
> 
> ...



Man you guys are so literal around here or is it jus because we're on the internet?  LOL!
When I said we did Jion before the tournament I didnt mean the day of the tournament, right before it started.
Its just somethin done leadin up to the day.  In fact the day before GM Cheeks would have me jus go thru forms and stretchin.
Before then all the sparring and techniques wouldve been worked on.  
Now on the day of the tournament right before things get started we would go thru Yuk Soo Darion to prepare for the sparrin.

Now in the WKF I dont think I would do good in those kinda tournaments.  Correct me if Im wrong but they HAVE TO fight in that stance and position, right?


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

puunui said:


> .
> 
> No disrespect to Kanazawa Sensei, but if he performed to that level at the WTF World Poomsae Championships, I do not think he would win today. Compare:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOmWUCCLNlA&feature=related



Well at the WTF World Poomsae Championships you can only do WTF forms, right?
Is it an open tournament?

Dont forget that Master Kanazawa won both forms and fightin at the All Japan Open back in the day.
I think Ky Tu Dang only does forms, right?
I got mad respect form Master Kanazawa because he competed in both forms and fightin.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Well at the WTF World Poomsae Championships you can only do WTF forms, right?
> Is it an open tournament?
> 
> Dont forget that Master Kanazawa won both forms and fightin at the All Japan Open back in the day.
> ...



Now that Ive said that.....it kinda brings anotha question to mind.  LOL!
I betta check and see if it was already post tho.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 28, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Hey thanks for the advice.
> But my "g" button on my computer works fine.
> Since this is not a formal settin. I choose to type in Ebonics since I speak in Ebonics.
> I always find it funny how white ppl always wanna criticize how I type as if dey type jus how dey speak.


While I am not much of a stickler for correct spelling or even missing words in a sentence, because I am just as guilty as the next person, it is hard to take anything you say seriously because you purposely speak in an ignorant matter.  It does not make you look "hard" it does not make you look cool.  It just makes you look like some ignorant kid who is trolling the pages in hopes to get some attention, because mommy did not hug you enough or perhaps uncle Freddy hugged you too much.  Regardless, I do not believe any of your seniors especially your late GM would want you to represent them in this manner.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Feb 28, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Now on the day of the tournament right before things get started we would go thru *Yuk Soo Darion* to prepare for the sparrin.



As in Yuk Soo Daeryun (&#50669;&#49688;&#45824;&#47144?  Ridge Hand Sparring?  I am not familiar with that term, could you explain?


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 28, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I think Ky Tu Dang only does forms, right?.



I think Master Ky Tu Dang also fought at the World Taekwondo Championships in Chicago in 1977.


----------



## puunui (Feb 28, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Well at the WTF World Poomsae Championships you can only do WTF forms, right?
> Is it an open tournament?



I wasn't talking about the particular form but rather the technical and presentation level.


----------



## puunui (Feb 28, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> I think Master Ky Tu Dang also fought at the World Taekwondo Championships in Chicago in 1977.



That's what his seminar bio say. Don't think he won though.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

puunui said:


> That's what his seminar bio say. Don't think he won though.



Well as long as he competed in both sides of the competition.
I mean whats the use of doin forms and the bunkai if you're not gonna fight?


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> As in Yuk Soo Daeryun (&#50669;&#49688;&#45824;&#47144?  Ridge Hand Sparring?  I am not familiar with that term, could you explain?



Its just a fightin pattern that GM Ki Whang Kim came up with.


----------



## Kinghercules (Feb 28, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> While I am not much of a stickler for correct spelling or even missing words in a sentence, because I am just as guilty as the next person, it is hard to take anything you say seriously because you purposely speak in an ignorant matter.  It does not make you look "hard" it does not make you look cool.  It just makes you look like some ignorant kid who is trolling the pages in hopes to get some attention, because mommy did not hug you enough or perhaps uncle Freddy hugged you too much.  Regardless, I do not believe any of your seniors especially your late GM would want you to represent them in this manner.



Oh I wasnt aware that you could hear me speakin.




miguksaram said:


> .....because you purposely speak in an ignorant matter.


Purposely?
When and where?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Feb 29, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Oh I wasnt aware that you could hear me speakin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From my perspective, the "Speaking" was referring to the internet postings although we are all aware this is not technically "Speaking". 

As you said, you purposely omit the "g" from your words.  (unlike me whose typing can just be awful.)

Like it or not if you speak widout proper grammer and syntax, den duh perception is dat are not talkin in an intelligent matter and you won't be takin serious.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 29, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Oh I wasnt aware that you could hear me speakin.


I believe you said this at one point:


			
				kh said:
			
		

> So the same bull I speak online Ill say to anyone in person


Which implies that you speak they way you type.  So to see how you type I can, in my mind hear how you speak.


> Purposely?
> When and where?



Anytime you post.


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 1, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> I believe you said this at one point:
> 
> Which implies that you speak they way you type.  So to see how you type I can, in my mind hear how you speak.
> 
> ...



Dats da problem......its all in your mind.


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 1, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> From my perspective, the "Speaking" was referring to the internet postings although we are all aware this is not technically "Speaking".
> 
> As you said, you purposely omit the "g" from your words.  (unlike me whose typing can just be awful.)
> 
> Like it or not if you speak widout proper grammer and syntax, den duh perception is dat are not talkin in an intelligent matter and you won't be takin serious.



Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the *ignorant* one.
There's no such thing as "proper" English.  The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.
Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent. 
If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make *ME* the fool.


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 1, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> There's no such thing as "proper" English.  The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
> If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.



What about the fact that not all of "us on here" are from America?

I'm proud to live in the UK (about 30 miles north of our capital), as I'm sure are others such as RobinTKD and Tez3 (for two examples I'm aware of).

Am I allowed to consider you ignorant then, based on the fact that I speak "proper" English? ;-)


----------



## Earl Weiss (Mar 1, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the *ignorant* one.
> There's no such thing as "proper" English. The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
> If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.
> Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent.
> If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make *ME* the fool.



I am sorry sir, but you are in a reality distortion field. I did not say you WERE ignorant, only how you would be percieved. Perceptions shape reality. You are choosing how you want to be perceived.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 1, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the *ignorant* one.
> There's no such thing as "proper" English.  The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
> If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.
> Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent.
> If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make *ME* the fool.



Wow... just wow... 

And people wonder why America is the target for so many jokes & Americans aren't thought of nearly as highly as we see ourselves...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 1, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the *ignorant* one.
> *There's no such thing as "proper" English.*  The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
> If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. *For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.
> *Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent.
> If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make *ME* the fool.



1 - The highlighted sentences contradict each other. Of course there is such a thing as proper English. Languages have rules. Follow them, and you're speaking the language properly.
2 - The purpose of language is, as you say, communiction. Therefore, when you join an international forum and intentionally choose to write in a way that makes communication more difficult, it can only be assumed that communication is NOT your priority. From your posts, your priority almost seems to be confrontation or a desire to be disruptive. Hardly helpful to communication, don't you agree? English can be difficult enough for those users for whom it is not a first language; intentionally making it more difficult just seems foolish.

Like it or not, forums are based on the written language, and the inability and/or unwillingness to express oneself clearly in writing will not help your credibility in any way.


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 1, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Wow... just wow...
> 
> And people wonder why America is the target for so many jokes & Americans aren't thought of nearly as highly as we see ourselves...



It's OK, apparently everyone on this board is American so "we" all see "ourselves" in the same way


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 1, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the *ignorant* one.
> There's no such thing as "proper" English."



Actually there is.  There are grammar rules that are in effect. So there is a thing called proper English.  Whether you choose to follow those rules or speak "Ebonics" which in my opinion is nothing more than an excuse to remain ignorant of language, then that is your choice.



			
				kh said:
			
		

> The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
> If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too.


If you speak in a manner which is deprived of the basic fundamentals of language rules, such as not adding your 'g' at the end of a sentence or 't' at the end of word, then you will be thought as ignorant or at the very least immature.



			
				kh said:
			
		

> For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.


You can try to throw that card out but it has no bearing on this manner.  In America you are still taught proper sentence structure and spelling.  Both which you seem to lack in you posts.



> Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent.


Talking in a dialect is not the same as purposely misspelling your words.


			
				kh said:
			
		

> If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make *ME* the fool.


Perhaps you are not a fool at all.  But we will never know because you present yourself as one in the way you communicate.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Mar 1, 2012)

For any Ebonics advocate who thinks perception is not important, then they must not know about the Miss Ebonics pagaent where they could only get contestants from 49 states because no one wanted to be Miss Idaho.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 1, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> For any Ebonics advocate who thinks perception is not important, then they must not know about the Miss Ebonics pagaent where they could only get contestants from 49 states because no one wanted to be Miss Idaho.



*ouch*

:s505:


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> What about the fact that not all of "us on here" are from America?
> 
> I'm proud to live in the UK (about 30 miles north of our capital), as I'm sure are others such as RobinTKD and Tez3 (for two examples I'm aware of).
> 
> Am I allowed to consider you ignorant then, based on the fact that I speak "proper" English? ;-)



Ok Im wrong on the fact that ppl here are from around the world.


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> 2 - The purpose of language is, as you say, communiction. Therefore, when you join an international forum and intentionally choose to write in a way that makes communication more difficult, it can only be assumed that communication is NOT your priority.
> 
> Like it or not, forums are based on the written language, and the inability and/or unwillingness to express oneself clearly in writing will not help your credibility in any way.



I strongly disagree.  I dont think you've been in a foreign form before or you wouldve have posted that.  For the simple fact that when you are in a Spanish speakin form *MANY* ppl  will post in slang & if they're Black they'll post in Spanish Ebonics.  _Especially Mexican and Peruvian ppl._  Besides from the streets the forms is where I learned alot of my Spanish slang.  Jus because a Dominican or Puerto Rican brotha/sista chose to type and post in Spanish slang Im suppose to assume that he/she is being difficult and not really tryna communicate. BS!
In my opinion (because thats all we're talkin here is our opinions) you're and the rest of yall are the ignorant ones.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 2, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I strongly disagree.  I dont think you've been in a foreign form before or you wouldve have posted that.  For the simple fact that when you are in a Spanish speakin form *MANY* ppl  will post in slang & if they're Black they'll post in Spanish Ebonics.  _Especially Mexican and Peruvian ppl._  Besides from the streets the forms is where I learned alot of my Spanish slang.  Jus because a Dominican or Puerto Rican brotha/sista chose to type and post in Spanish slang Im suppose to assume that he/she is being difficult and not really tryna communicate. BS!



(Insults and name calling deleted.)

This is certainly true, and arguably appropriate in a LOCAL forum. Of course, it doesn't apply here. Not even a little bit.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 2, 2012)

Why are people seriously discussing how English works.



Kinghercules said:


> Man you guys are so literal around here or is it jus because we're on the internet? LOL!
> When I said we did Jion before the tournament I didnt mean the day of the tournament, right before it started.
> Its just somethin done leadin up to the day. In fact the day before GM Cheeks would have me jus go thru forms and stretchin.
> Before then all the sparring and techniques wouldve been worked on.
> ...



I did some stretching earlier.
Like, two days ago.




Kinghercules said:


> Hey thanks for the advice.
> But my "g" button on my computer works fine.
> Since this is not a formal settin. I choose to type in Ebonics since I speak in Ebonics.
> I always find it funny how white ppl always wanna criticize how I type as if dey type jus how dey speak.




I for one actually do. Just add a throat-clear after every paragraph or two.



Kinghercules said:


> My understanding of the word "they" is as follows:_used as third person pronoun serving as the plural of he, she, or it or referring to a group of two or more individuals not all of the same sex_.



Internet People. Always taking everything so literally.



Kinghercules said:


> Getta back bone.



A better reply would have been "Get a Close Tab Button".



Kinghercules said:


> I dont like the way the Japanese do their forms. To me they're too robotic. I was taught to be more fluent with the movements.
> 
> You're right....now that I think about it. The only times Ive had that discussion was with ppl that knew all 3 forms.



Forms arent Fighting. Theyre essentially a moving record.



Kinghercules said:


> It took me a while to post this because Ive been searching thru out this form to see if this was already asked before I post this.
> So if Ive missed it.....my bad.
> 
> *Cool.*
> ...



Just My Contribution.


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

I find it funny and sad that I have to defend Afrikan American culture to white ppl now a days.  LOL!

I chose to type in Ebonics wheneva its not a formal settin becuz Im proud of who I am.  Not many (if any) Black ppl would post in slang on forms becuz they're uncomfortable or worried how they wud be viewed by white ppl or otha ppl.  But as for me I could careless.  We're not doin academic or scholarly work.  Mofos are jus shootin da breeze.  Besides if we were talkin face to face and I started speakin in Ebonics non of yall wud dare say to me (or if it was any otha Black person) "Speak correct English."  Cuz you know damn well yall get punched in the face (unless they were trained in the ATA LOL).  You wud have to be a racist MF to tell a Black person to speak correctly. 

 miguksaram said "Actually there is.  There are grammar rules that are in effect. So there  is a thing called proper English.  Whether you choose to follow those  rules or speak "Ebonics" which in my opinion is nothing more than an  excuse to remain ignorant of language, then that is your choice."

Ok lets look at this. English is not a Romance language but most of the words in English come out of Romance languages.  English is consider to be a Germanic language becuz of the sounds and structure of it.  Ebonics is its own language. Just becauz English words are used dosent make it a English language.  Your butt need to understand relexification to understand why and how Black ppl speak Ebonics.  It doesnt mean that the person is ignorant or ignorin the rules of English.  The grammar, structure and syntax of Ebonics is not the same as in English but is the same as in many Afikan languages.  In many Afrikan languages you dont have a "to be" verb.  So when a Black person says "Ayo where dem bammas at," he/she is speakin correct Ebonics and no longer speakin English.


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Why are people seriously discussing how English works.


Hey, why in they talkin about the Iraq war across the hall?



Cyriacus said:


> I did some stretching earlier.
> Like, two days ago.


 LOL! Ok.....





Cyriacus said:


> Internet People. Always taking everything so literally.


Hey thats what I said!
LOL!




Cyriacus said:


> Forms arent Fighting. Theyre essentially a moving record.


But they were made (at lest some) out of fighting.
I was taught that you should practice your forms as if you were fightin.
Have you ever seen them ol' school Kung Fu flicks?  When the guy gets beat he runs and home and start trainin, right?  You see him doin what....forms?  Over and over and over and over and over and over and over......and it be the same form!!  They'll say somethin like "Ive been practicin this technique for the past 12yrs."  They would do one form for 12yrs.  I know its a movie but thats how they trained back then.  Your forms are a reflection of your fightin.....at lest for us it is.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 2, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Hey, why in they talkin about the Iraq war across the hall?
> 
> 
> LOL! Ok.....
> ...


Yes, Theyre made out of Fighting. But the entire thing isnt Fighting, parts of it are.

As for how You practice them, Im not sure Youd move anything remotely like You do in a Form, in a Fight.

Thats Kung Fu flicks, where jumping spinning and flying around is a perfectly acceptable method of Street Fighting.





For us, Individual Parts of a given Form are Methods of Fighting, but there isnt one Preset "You must do everything exactly like this".


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> *Mostly just for the sake of it. Im not going to break out into Dan-Gun if Im accosted, and You wont break out into Jion.*



LOL!  True that.  




Cyriacus said:


> *If You want a Workout and whatnot, do the relative exercises. I wont do Chun Ji to get better at Punching. Ill Punch.*


Well Idk about that.......because in martial arts lifting weights is not a big part of it (not to say they dont do it).  So how does one get the strength to break boards, ice and bricks?  Forms.  Or what we call "walkin the floor".  Where you go up and down the floor doin low blocks, high blocks, punches....etc.



Cyriacus said:


> *Most Martial Arts arent even remotely Traditional then.*
> 
> * I like the not-Your-method way, but Im not going to criticize it. It interests Me.*


Explain.



Cyriacus said:


> *By that logic, You should pick one of Your Choice, from a bigger pool of choices.*


True that.


----------



## MJS (Mar 2, 2012)

Admin Note:

Keep the discussion at a polite and friendly level please.  If you can't post without resorting to calling someone a name and swearing, then perhaps you shouldn't post at all!

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


----------



## Sukerkin (Mar 2, 2012)

To try and forstall the direction this thread seems to be going in, here is the relevant section from the site regulations:


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


*4.18 Language:


*MartialTalk is a United States based forum; As such all posts must be primarily in English. 

While we respect the fact that many people are fluent in several foreign languages, this is an English-speaking community, and that is the standard that everyone is expected to follow. 

Posts that discuss foreign language terms are fine, as long as the discussion of such terms is carried out mostly in English, and such terms are translated in a verifiable manner. 

Posts that are written entirely, or mostly, in a language other than English will be removed. 

Insults, slights, and other derogatory terms and phrases posted in a foreign language as also subject to these rules. We will rely on sites such as Google and Babel to translate, and their version will be what we accept.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Hopefully the contributors can now get back to discussing, in English as clear as they can honestly manage, whatever this thread is supposed to be about.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor


----------



## Earl Weiss (Mar 2, 2012)

Thereafter, the term _Ebonics_ became popularized, though as little more than a synonym for African American Vernacular English, perhaps differing in the emphasis on its claimed African roots and independence from English. The term is linked with the nationally discussed controversy over the decision by the Oakland School Board, which adopted a resolution to teach children "standard American English" through a specific program of respect for students' home language and tutoring in the "code switching" required to use both standard English and Ebonics.[SUP][17][/SUP]While the term is avoided by most linguists,[SUP][18][/SUP] it is used elsewhere (such as on Internet message boards), often for ridiculing AAVE, particularly when this is inaccurately parodied as differing more from Standard American English than it really does.[SUP][19][/SUP] Black American linguist John McWhorter argues that the use of the term does more to hinder black academic achievement than to help it, in that considering AAVE to be a completely different language from English serves only to widen the perceived divide between whites and blacks in America.[SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][_Full citation needed_]   (Wikipedia)[/SUP]


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 2, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Besides if we were talkin face to face and I started speakin in Ebonics non of yall wud dare say to me (or if it was any otha Black person) "Speak correct English."  Cuz you know damn well yall get punched in the face (unless they were trained in the ATA LOL).  You wud have to be a racist MF to tell a Black person to speak correctly.



Maybe it's me coming from a non-american point of view, but they way you are typing may seem "ebonics" or "black" to you, but it just seems like slang to me.  So I don't care whether you see it as racist being told to speak correct English.  FWIW I may or may not tell you to speak correctly (I have in the past), I may just repeatedly say "sorry, I didn't understand you then, what did you mean" (and eventually people get the hint) or after a couple of sentences the conversation would end (I wouldn't bother with follow-ups and leave).  This isn't a black thing, it's a slang thing and constantly speaking slang (or txtspk for that matter) will not get you far in conversations with people who don't speak that way.

What you are being told on here (and I didn't step in until you assumed no-one on here spoke correct English) isn't to put you down or whatever you're feeling, it's people trying to advise you on how to get a better reception/response on here.  There is a lot of combined knowledge on the martial arts on here.  You may feel like you're the be-all-and-end-all and don't need it, but if you want to take advantage of the knowledge you want to communicate in a way that doesn't make people want to not converse with you.

So, in summary - not racist, people are trying to help you, your call.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 2, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I find it funny and sad that I have to defend Afrikan American culture to white ppl now a days.  LOL!


Actually no...you have not defended African-American culture.  Do not mix Ebonics and Urban culture with African-American culture.  Many black people would and are insulted.  



> I chose to type in Ebonics wheneva its not a formal settin becuz Im proud of who I am.  Not many (if any) Black ppl would post in slang on forms becuz they're uncomfortable or worried how they wud be viewed by white ppl or otha ppl.


I used to manage a local rap group and was a promoter of house parties as well as a part owner of a night club.  When I was in that culture speaking with the DJ's or performers, I spoke a certain way because it was acceptable and allowed people to feel more comfortable. When I would talk to other club owners or patrons, I would speak in a professional manner.  It had nothing to do with being ashamed of who I was because I was both people. 

If someone is ashamed to use Ebonics when they talk (or type as this case may be) in a public forum, then perhaps because they know the perception of ignorance surrounding that form of language.  If I want to be taken seriously by my colleges, seniors and juniors, I am not going to be speaking in what most people would consider a low level form of communication.  



			
				kh said:
			
		

> But as for me I could careless.  We're not doin academic or scholarly work.  Mofos are jus shootin da breeze.


Actually we do academic and scholarly work here as well as shoot the breeze.  Perhaps you have not read through all the threads.  I would recommend doing that.



> Besides if we were talkin face to face and I started speakin in Ebonics non of yall wud dare say to me (or if it was any otha Black person) "Speak correct English."  Cuz you know damn well yall get punched in the face (unless they were trained in the ATA LOL).  You wud have to be a racist MF to tell a Black person to speak correctly.


I speak it...I'm white.  So what?  Perhaps you should step outside of the 'hood' and realize that the urban culture which spawned Ebonics has spread to the burbs and rural areas as well.  I have told a black man to speak correctly.  It was someone I know from the circuit who is from the inner-city and was wanting to know how to break into my line of work in software industry.  I told him that he had to quit talking like a hood rat and practice speaking properly if he was to be taken seriously in an interview.  I explained to him like I am trying to explain to you now, that there is a time and place for street slang....hmmmm...nope..no punch in the face.



> Ok lets look at this. English is not a Romance language but most of the words in English come out of Romance languages.  English is consider to be a Germanic language becuz of the sounds and structure of it.  Ebonics is its own language. Just becauz English words are used dosent make it a English language.  Your butt need to understand relexification to understand why and how Black ppl speak Ebonics.  It doesnt mean that the person is ignorant or ignorin the rules of English.  The grammar, structure and syntax of Ebonics is not the same as in English but is the same as in many Afikan languages.  In many Afrikan languages you dont have a "to be" verb.  So when a Black person says "Ayo where dem bammas at," he/she is speakin correct Ebonics and no longer speakin English.



First of all...thank you that was actually a well thought out counter point, which made me look a bit deeper into this.  With that said, my point was not about the English being or not being a language, but the fact that there are grammatical rules that are in effect that does make something proper as opposed to slang.   It is a popular belief or more to the fact that it is a popular defense that Ebonics is based in African language structure.  While one could say that you could also say that it is based in Asian language structure since, there is no "to be" type structure like you pointed out.  The best theory I have read on this is that you can trace it back to the slave era in the southern states where they developed a language in order to communicate with each other and the slave owners.  This a theory at best.  They were calling it the language of the slaves.  Again, a language that was based in ignorance of the proper gramatical English use.  You see this in many foreigners trying to learn English for the first time.  Again this does not make them stupid, it just makes them ignorant of grammar.  Don't confuse the two.


----------



## MJS (Mar 2, 2012)

Folks, lets get back to the topic at hand please.  Feel free to start a new thread on the use of the English language, if you'd like.


----------



## The Last Legionary (Mar 2, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Ebonics



It's a sign of someone who lacks education or the ability to communicate with educated people. Forum rules state "English". Not "Uneducated Ignoramus Gibberish".  If you can't be bothered to do that, don't expect much in the way of a positive response. I suppose though you'll issue some threats involving 'popping a cap' and your 'hommies' punctuated by massive profanity when you get smacked down, and you will. More signs of the uneducated knuckle dragger devolution crowd. Enjoy you mofo gangsta you.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 2, 2012)

MJS said:


> Folks, lets get back to the topic at hand please.  Feel free to start a new thread on the use of the English language, if you'd like.


Agreed...sorry for the sidetrack.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Mar 2, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Would that apply to Black people who would tell a Black person to speak correctly as well?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 2, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> You wud have to be a racist MF to tell a Black person to speak correctly.



View attachment $race card.jpg

All you'd have to be is a person engaging in a conversation on an English language forum.
It's not about race, it's about intelligibility.

As for this statement:

"Well Idk about that.......because in martial arts lifting weights is not a big part of it (not to say they dont do it).  So how does one get the strength to break boards, ice and bricks?  Forms.  Or what we call "walkin the floor".  Where you go up and down the floor doin low blocks, high blocks, punches....etc."

I'd have to disagree. Forms are not effective strength builders. They're moderately effective as cardio conditioning, but even for that there are better options.


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## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Thereafter, the term _Ebonics_ became popularized, though as little more than a synonym for African American Vernacular English, perhaps differing in the emphasis on its claimed African roots and independence from English. The term is linked with the nationally discussed controversy over the decision by the Oakland School Board, which adopted a resolution to teach children "standard American English" through a specific program of respect for students' home language and tutoring in the "code switching" required to use both standard English and Ebonics.[SUP][17][/SUP]While the term is avoided by most linguists,[SUP][18][/SUP] it is used elsewhere (such as on Internet message boards), often for ridiculing AAVE, particularly when this is inaccurately parodied as differing more from Standard American English than it really does.[SUP][19][/SUP] Black American linguist John McWhorter argues that the use of the term does more to hinder black academic achievement than to help it, in that considering AAVE to be a completely different language from English serves only to widen the perceived divide between whites and blacks in America.[SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][_Full citation needed_]   (Wikipedia)[/SUP]



LOL!
Wikipedia & John McWhorter?  Seriously?
How about Dr Ernie Smith?  Or Dr. Molefi Kete Asante?
Dont pick an uncle Tom negro when you engagin in intellectual warfare with a ProBlack/Pan Afrikanist.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 2, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Forms are not effective strength builders. They're moderately effective as cardio conditioning, but even for that there are better options.



I agree, forms are *skill* building exercises; i.e. technique exercises.  Form practice certainly can increase your *power*, but that increase in power does not come from an increase in strength, it comes from an increase in functional skill.


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## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Actually no...you have not defended African-American culture.  Do not mix Ebonics and Urban culture with African-American culture.  Many black people would and are insulted.


Oh really?  
Please explain to me the difference between the two, expert white boy from the UK.



miguksaram said:


> I used to manage a local rap group and was a promoter of house parties as well as a part owner of a night club.  When I was in that culture speaking with the DJ's or performers, I spoke a certain way because it was acceptable and allowed people to feel more comfortable. When I would talk to other club owners or patrons, I would speak in a professional manner.  It had nothing to do with being ashamed of who I was because I was both people.


Fallin Trees!!!
Pure fallin trees!!!!
You straight lyin now!! 
LOL!!!
Come on now.  You gonna hit me wit dat crap?
Champ even tho we aint face to face I can tell that you aint been hangin wit Black ppl....let alone manage a rap group.
LOL!!!
(I gotta let me peeps read dis crap)



miguksaram said:


> If someone is ashamed to use Ebonics when they talk (or type as this case may be) in a public forum, then perhaps because they know the perception of ignorance surrounding that form of language.  If I want to be taken seriously by my colleges, seniors and juniors, I am not going to be speaking in what most people would consider a low level form of communication.
> 
> 
> I speak it...I'm white.  So what?  Perhaps you should step outside of the 'hood' and realize that the urban culture which spawned Ebonics has spread to the burbs and rural areas as well.  I have told a black man to speak correctly.  It was someone I know from the circuit who is from the inner-city and was wanting to know how to break into my line of work in software industry.  I told him that he had to quit talking like a hood rat and practice speaking properly if he was to be taken seriously in an interview.  I explained to him like I am trying to explain to you now, that there is a time and place for street slang....hmmmm...nope..no punch in the face.


Erything else you posted is mute.
Cuz you lied!
LOL!!




miguksaram said:


> First of all...thank you that was actually a well thought out counter point, which made me look a bit deeper into this.  With that said, my point was not about the English being or not being a language, but the fact that there are grammatical rules that are in effect that does make something proper as opposed to slang.   It is a popular belief or more to the fact that it is a popular defense that Ebonics is based in African language structure.  While one could say that you could also say that it is based in Asian language structure since, there is no "to be" type structure like you pointed out.  The best theory I have read on this is that you can trace it back to the slave era in the southern states where they developed a language in order to communicate with each other and the slave owners.  This a theory at best.  They were calling it the language of the slaves.  Again, a language that was based in ignorance of the proper gramatical English use.  You see this in many foreigners trying to learn English for the first time.  Again this does not make them stupid, it just makes them ignorant of grammar.  Don't confuse the two.


I would pick thru your argument but I aint gonna do that, for the simple fact that you dont know what you're talkin bout.
And on top of that you lied.  I can pull your hoe card.


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## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

The Last Legionary said:


> It's a sign of someone who lacks education or the ability to communicate with educated people. Forum rules state "English". Not "Uneducated Ignoramus Gibberish".  If you can't be bothered to do that, don't expect much in the way of a positive response. I suppose though you'll issue some threats involving 'popping a cap' and your 'hommies' punctuated by massive profanity when you get smacked down, and you will. More signs of the uneducated knuckle dragger devolution crowd. Enjoy you mofo gangsta you.
> View attachment 16158


Errrr..wrong!
You didnt even try.
You fail!
LOL!!!


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## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Would that apply to Black people who would tell a Black person to speak correctly as well?



Them bammas would get smacked too!
LOL!


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## Kinghercules (Mar 2, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> View attachment 16160
> 
> All you'd have to be is a person engaging in a conversation on an English language forum.
> It's not about race, it's about intelligibility.
> ...



Well you jus disagree.
A school that doesnt have and uses weights some how is able to get their students to brake bricks and ice.
How does that occur?


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 2, 2012)

*Thread Locked Pending Review*


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