# The Type Of Person You Train For



## MJS (Nov 16, 2006)

I'm curious to hear what type of person you train to defend yourself against. We have people in the world that have zero skill, some that are moderate and some that are highly skilled. Some say that the odds of running into someone that is highly skilled, is pretty slim, while others say that they train for the worst case scenario all the time.

What are your thoughts and what type do you train for?


For myself, I like to prepare for the worst. Now, I've heard people say, "Why train for (insert random attack) when chances are, it'll never happen. Thats true, maybe I'll go through my entire life, never having someone bearhug me, but I still train for that attack. I may never have a gun pulled on me, but I still train gun defense. I may never end up on the ground, but I still grapple. IMO, while I train for the worst, I think that average will be the no skill to moderate skill. I just don't think that the average person will have the skill of a Royce Gracie or a Filipino Master. Are they out there? Sure. But I think that the guy thats going to try to mug me to support his drug habit, isn't going to be the guy thats training to be the next UFC title holder.


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## MA-Caver (Nov 16, 2006)

I train myself for anything and anyone and everything and everyone. But I also keep sharply honed the common sense that says "RUN YOU FOOL THIS GUY IS GONNA KILL YA!" 
I know I can't beat everyone but I know that I can inflict a good deal of damage on to them whilst trying to beat them. But basically I don't look to win, but to evade as quickly as possible. I get put into a corner I'm gonna fight just long enough to get out of it.
Besides... remember Yoda... size matters not. 

I also train extensively in people skills... so that I don't inadvertedly piss anyone off enough that my other skills have to be used against them. :asian:


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## Drac (Nov 16, 2006)

MJS said:


> I'm curious to hear what type of person you train to defend yourself against


 
For me it's to defend myself against the drunk driver,wife beater, child molester who has decides that they are not going to jail...


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## The Kidd (Nov 16, 2006)

I think your asking 2 questions; What skill level opponent do you train for? and What type of attack do you train for?

1. I like you train against all skill levels but I focus on the unskilled to moderately skilled individual because that is who I go up against often

2. I train just like you against all attacks but I also focus on the ones I come up against the most, punches rather than kicks, weapons rather than say a bearhug (the people I deal with will more likely try to use a weapon against me rather than bearhug me since I am 6'5" and 230 lbs)


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## jgrimm01 (Nov 16, 2006)

Awesome topic....In my opinion, trying to train for a specific type of attacker or encounter could be self-defeating. In a physical encounter, the only thing you can truly count on is yourself and your skill, your reflexes, etc. You don't know who or what you're up against, what their intentions are, what skills they may have. Because of that, I try and train to develop muscle memory and reflexes in addition to technique and speed. Honestly, in most cases if you have to stop and think about how to counter an oncoming attack or what step to take next you're too late and you're already behind the attacker (unless you're initiating the attack for some reason). Self defense needs to be instinctual to be 100% effective, and developing muscle memory with technique helps get it there.  

J


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## Carol (Nov 16, 2006)

I train to defend myself against someone bigger, stronger, and meaner.  

Regardless of the situation, and unfortunately the past couple of months have brought me closer to using my skills than I would have liked on more than one occasion,  I doubt that my attacker will be a kind-hearted person my size or smaller.


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## Drac (Nov 16, 2006)

The Kidd said:


> I2. I train just like you against all attacks but I also focus on the ones I come up against the most, punches rather than kicks, weapons rather than say a bearhug (the people I deal with will more likely try to use a weapon against me rather than bearhug me since I am 6'5" and 230 lbs)


 


Carol Kaur said:


> I train to defend myself against someone bigger, stronger, and meaner.


 
The above instantces are something LEO males and females can face at any given time..That is what we train for..


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## exile (Nov 16, 2006)

MJS said:


> For myself, I like to prepare for the worst. Now, I've heard people say, "Why train for (insert random attack) when chances are, it'll never happen. Thats true, maybe I'll go through my entire life, never having someone bearhug me, but I still train for that attack. I may never have a gun pulled on me, but I still train gun defense. I may never end up on the ground, but I still grapple. IMO, while I train for the worst, I think that average will be the no skill to moderate skill. I just don't think that the average person will have the skill of a Royce Gracie or a Filipino Master. Are they out there? Sure. But I think that the guy thats going to try to mug me to support his drug habit, isn't going to be the guy thats training to be the next UFC title holder.



Mike---you took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with The Kidd's post that you should always be training your overall skills, but the nature of the attacks you're going to face will vary widely depending on just `who' it is that's going after you. The way I see it, it takes discipline and dedication to train to a high level of skill, and a certain amount of self-control and deliberateness. That doesn't sound like the kind of person who threatens you with unreasoning physical aggression and who rejects your best effort to be conciliatory and defuse the situation because they really _want_ to hurt you. As you say, that sort of person probably doesn't have very sophisticated training---what they do have is a capacity for violence which gives them an advantage over more or less normal people who use their cortex instead of their reptile-brain, and a bag of tricks that they've picked up over years of indulging that inclination. So the odds are, any situation which goes seriously sideways is going to involve someone like that, meaning that it pays to familiarize yourself with the kind of toolkit pathological types like that employ...

... so I'm thinking sucker punch, head butts, instinctive front-kick groin attack, eye jabs, and a few grabs, along with the usual roundhous haymaker and maybe one or two boxing-type punches. There are a lot of very good TMA techniques for handling these sorts of attacks---a headbutt, according to the UK street combat gurus like Geoff Thompson and Peyton Quinn, usually is preceded by a double-hand grab; so it's crucial to respond to any grab as though a head-butt were coming, since an effective head-butt is pretty much the end of the story for the recipient. You need to be aware of your situation and have a sharp sense of when your physical space is getting invaded; if, as Andy notes in his signature, you're not caught nappin', you should be able to anticipate the sucker punch---as soon as a complete stranger (who's probably not acting totally `right') moves into a zone where they could land a punch, you need to automatically go to yellow or orange and stay there. And so on. Drac and other LEOs are in a special situation; they're dealing not just with ordinary violent jerks but the really scary sociopaths, guys with no conscience whatever, with all kinds of drugs hyping up their nervous system---berserkers, I think of them as---for those guys, you probably want to have a nice weapon or two at hand...

... so yeah, everything you say in your post makes sense to me.


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## MJS (Nov 16, 2006)

Thank you all for the great replies!! Keep 'em coming!! :ultracool 

I'll address a few posts.

Mac: I couldn't agree more.  Getting the hell out of there is important.  Likewise, I agree that having those people skills is important as well.  If someone can talk their way out, rather than fighting their way out, that is a much better route to take in the long run IMHO.

jgrimm: Great points!  Self defense techniques are, IMO, a foundation to build off of.  Not something that is set in stone, but instead, something to use as an example.  Being able to react, without having to think, is ultimately the goal.

The Kidd, Drac and Carol:  Agreed.  As a LEO, the training is going to vary.  The Dept. isn't going to look too kindly on excessive use of force, so controlling aspects would most likely the the focus.  Obviously, at 6'5, the last thing I'd do would bearhug you, so I can see what you're talking about when you mention gearing techs. for what you're most likely to face.

exile:  Great post man!!  I like your comment here:



> what they do have is a capacity for violence which gives them an advantage over more or less normal people who use their cortex instead of their reptile-brain, and a bag of tricks that they've picked up over years of indulging that inclination.


 
I agree 100%.  Just the other day, at one of the correctional facilities in CT., there was an assault on 2 staff members by 2 inmates.  One of them was 31 yrs old and was looking at 75 yrs for murder.  I worked in Corrections for a while, and had people say all the time, "I'm looking at 60yrs to life in here.  Do you think I give a **** if I take a swing at you?  Whats going to happen to me, more time in here?  I'm probably going to die in here, so it doesn't matter to me!"  

Bottom line...you're right, these people don't care and chances are, they're going to have a totally different mindset.  This is where the guys you mentioned, Thompson and Quinn, differ in their training.  They're doing some research on the mindset of the potential attackers.


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## Grenadier (Nov 16, 2006)

Even though I've been in the traditional martial arts for over 20 years, I still take part in self-defense clinics on a regular basis.  It never hurts to be able to train for the situation where you're attacked by the untrained fighter.  Most trained fighters aren't looking to cause trouble.  

While it's not necessarily an entirely different ball game, against the untrained, you're better off focussing on a small number of techniques that you can perform at your absolute best, instead of thinking about diversity.  

There's an old saying, that professional soldiers are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs...


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## KenpoTex (Nov 16, 2006)

As has been stated, chances of having to fight someone that can grapple like a Gracie, use a knife like Kelly Worden, or shoot like Rob Leatham are pretty slim.

That said, I train with the mindset that I'm going to have to fight someone larger and stronger who's bent on doing me harm.  For example a gangbanger that just got out of prison and doesn't want to go back.

I also assume that they're going to fight as nasty as I will, and that they, like me, will employ a weapon at the first opportunity.

To me, it makes no sense to train for the "lowest common denominator."


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## INDYFIGHTER (Nov 16, 2006)

I train with the assumption that most have limited training at best.  However I've been surprised before too.  Last weekend I was dragging a guy out of the bar I work in using a triangle choke.  First he tried picking me up, then he went for my goin and finally he got a hold on my thumb and tried breaking it.  Most people don't think to do those things.


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## rutherford (Nov 16, 2006)

I train for myself.  Performance in a combat sport or survival of self defense situations is not my highest priority or goal.  Instead, my highest priority is my own health.  Increased physical performance and understanding of human movement are the two biggest goals I hope to reach through the application of my training priorities.

If I had an event I was training for, I would train specifically for the opponent I would face and the rules of engagement.

In self defense situations, I will not have the luxury of preknowledge of my opponent or choice of venue.   The rules of engagement are simplified, since survival is usually the only worthwhile goal.  But adaptability, confidence, and experience is where I imagine the biggest gains will be made, and thus these are some more of my training priorities.

Obviously, military, enforcement or protection professionals have different needs and thus should have different training priorities.


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## morph4me (Nov 16, 2006)

I train with the assumption that anybody I face will be bigger than me, be on drugs or deranged, have a weapon, and have nothing to lose. In other words, worst case scenario.


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## Drac (Nov 16, 2006)

morph4me said:


> I train with the assumption that anybody I face will be bigger than me, be on drugs or deranged, have a weapon, and have nothing to lose. In other words, worst case scenario.


 

That's the LEO way too...


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## matt.m (Nov 16, 2006)

I train like I expect someone to kill me or worse yet my wife.  Being a combat veteran from the Marines, I take my training very serious.  I believe if I am to fight in anger it will be very bad and not a good scenerio at all.  

I always expect at least two attackers.


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## bushidomartialarts (Nov 16, 2006)

i train to fight against myself.

by that i mean, i train solely to improve myself from day to day.  am i a better person today than i was yesterday?  my training isn't about combat anymore.  it's about personal evolution.

when it comes to self defense, my training is about awareness and foot speed (running, not kicks).  if i fight, i figure i have a 90% chance or so of taking out some tweeker mugger.  probably 80% or so if he's armed, 50-60% if he's got friends.

but if i avoid the situation altogether i have a 100% of turning out okay.  

the combat stuff is fun, and it's what originally drew me to the arts.  but if you want self defense you should go take a wilderness photography class (seriously -- they'll give you observation and alertness skills you've never dreamed of) and practice leaving situations before they get ugly.

(disclaimer:  leos and other folks who get in harm's way for a living are obviously different from me.  their training should focus hard on getting home each day)


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## Kacey (Nov 16, 2006)

I train because I enjoy it - it fills a need in my life.

That being said, however, when it comes to self-defense, I follow these rules, in this order:

- never get into a situation where I need to defend myself 

- if in a situation where self-defense may become necessary, RUN

- if I can't run - do it fast, do it first, do it dirty; the polite rules of sparring go out the window at that point.

This is separated from the rest of what is taught in my class so that students know what they can use when; I teach an age range from 11 to 44, and while I expect the 44 year-old to know when he can use what (especially since he's a lawyer and a judge), the kids are another story.  We go over scenarios and responses on a regular basis, so they won't have to think - just react.


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## terryl965 (Nov 16, 2006)

I train so I will be able to walk away and keep walking.

With that being said I have really had no problems with encounters over the last twenty years do to the fact, I have learned not to be around them. That is what my training is for


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## searcher (Nov 16, 2006)

I don't train to fight/defend against any particular person or type of person.  I work my skills and try to gain as much knowledge as Ican so hopefully I can make my skills adapt to whatever thesituation my need.   I am of the hope that I can talk my way out of most altercations before they become altercations.   I hope that my own self-confidence would also help to be a deterant.   Most people with little to no skill will not be looking to fight.   The moderately skilled can be very dangerous since they seem to have something to prove and nothing to lose.   The highly skilled streetfighter will be less than willing to fight since they have a lot to lose and little to gain.

I am not nervous about the loudmouth that is braggin about himself.   The quiet guy that is being bragged about is the one that I don't want to fight.  So if I do train for anyone it would be that guy, I guess.


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## bushidomartialarts (Nov 16, 2006)

searcher said:


> I am not nervous about the loudmouth that is braggin about himself.   The quiet guy that is being bragged about is the one that I don't want to fight.  So if I do train for anyone it would be that guy, I guess.




a good point.  even worse is the quiet guy nobody's bragging about, but is half your size and walking straight into you like he knows something you don't.


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## Jenna (Nov 16, 2006)

MJS said:


> For myself, I like to prepare for the worst. Now, I've heard people say, "Why train for (insert random attack) when chances are, it'll never happen. Thats true, maybe I'll go through my entire life, never having someone bearhug me, but I still train for that attack. I may never have a gun pulled on me, but I still train gun defense. I may never end up on the ground, but I still grapple.


Hey Mike 
Great thread up to your usual standard!! I absolutely agree with your sentiment above.. and if I had just one statement to make it would be that attacks for real NEVER happen the way you think they will.. and so personally I believe that NO training we ever do is without its own merit.. 

We cannot write off any type of training onthe basis that the situation which warrants its use will not arise.. I have been attacked and NOT up some dark alley at midnight but in broad daylight out in a busy thoroughfare and NOT by some bulked up trucker dude but by someone well known to me.. that is just how it is.. attacks are seldom predictable and I think many of us have been moulded into thinking they happen along certain sterotypical patterns which can mean we are not adequately prepared at all (myself included)..

FWIW.. I think you are spot on.. if we train for AS MANY eventualities as we can dream up.. then we put ourselves in the most favourable position.. 

Again.. good thread sir! 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## terryl965 (Nov 16, 2006)

Jenna said:


> Hey Mike
> Great thread up to your usual standard!! I absolutely agree with your sentiment above.. and if I had just one statement to make it would be that attacks for real NEVER happen the way you think they will.. and so personally I believe that NO training we ever do is without its own merit..
> 
> We cannot write off any type of training onthe basis that the situation which warrants its use will not arise.. I have been attacked and NOT up some dark alley at midnight but in broad daylight out in a busy thoroughfare and NOT by some bulked up trucker dude but by someone well known to me.. that is just how it is.. attacks are seldom predictable and I think many of us have been moulded into thinking they happen along certain sterotypical patterns which can mean we are not adequately prepared at all (myself included)..
> ...


 

Hello Jenna glad to see you are still around, you have made some great point here.


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## Bigshadow (Nov 16, 2006)

MJS said:


> What are your thoughts and what type do you train for?



The type that want to harm me.


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## PeaceWarrior (Nov 16, 2006)

I have to agree with pretty much everything that has been said.  In my own training, so far I am working on your usual boxing type punches, haymakers, grabs on the wrists, grabs on the shirt, grabs from behind, chokes, and a few against attacks with knifes.  Each technique I learn is really not meant to be a "once and for all" move, but to teach me a principle of body mechanics, or sau (arm movement), etc.  

IMO its not necessarily the techniques you train but the principles you can understand from those techniques, and then apply in many different situations. You can learn a hundred joint locks, but unless you really understand the principles behind them you will struggle and your technique will be useless.   

but yeah, to answer your question, I train for the worst case scenario, someone who is bigger, stronger, and faster, who knows how to fight.  That way, there is always room for improvement! 

Good thread!


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## searcher (Nov 16, 2006)

The key to fighting/defending on the street is your ability to adapt.   As has been stated, no fight ever happens the way you want it to.


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## elder999 (Nov 16, 2006)

In my mind, he's just like me, only a little younger, a little bigger, a little better trained, in a little better shape,and  positively sociopathic. Sometimes he's empty handed, sometimes he has a knife, and sometimes he has that baseball bat club with the nails through the head, just like in the comics. He's looking at me like I slept with his girlfriend/mother/wife, or molested his kid, or just have something he wants. He wants to rape and kill my wife, or my daughter, or my son, or that nice lady at the coffee shop where I get my paper, and I'm the only thing that stands between them. He _really_ hates me-wants to take my head right off my shoulders like in one of those terrorist videos, and mail it to my mom. Somtimes he's on drugs, or a little drunk, or both.

The only ones who dislike him more than me are my training partners, who constantly tell me to "get that guy out of your head."verkill: :lol: 

As for technique-well, in the end, does it really matter?


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 16, 2006)

MJS said:


> I'm curious to hear what type of person you train to defend yourself against. We have people in the world that have zero skill, some that are moderate and some that are highly skilled. Some say that the odds of running into someone that is highly skilled, is pretty slim, while others say that they train for the worst case scenario all the time.
> 
> What are your thoughts and what type do you train for?
> 
> ...




When I started I wanted to learn techniques on how not to break people so easily with strength. Control and disarms. I wanted to train for the average street thug. 

I now train because I enjoy just for the sheer pleasure of training, but the opponent I train for now is another Rich. One that is at least as good as me, and most likely better than me. Not trying to be a meglamaniac or throw around my ego, but, the number of people I expect to get into a fight with gets smaller and smaller each year.  Yes my skills are hopefully getting better, but the issue is that I am more likely not to be in a location where a fight might occur. I will use more of my verbal and or avoidance skills than my physical skills. 

So, I guess I train to fight myself now.


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## mijemi (Nov 16, 2006)

I'm only new to martial arts so at the moment I'm trying to focus more on the basics and defending against those attacks that are more likely to occur like muggings, sexual assaults etc. As time goes on I'm hoping I can be a bit more prepared for the worst case scenario but don't expect too much of myself. I guess I believe being able to do something even if you come off second best is still better than doing nothing.
Cheers


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## MSTCNC (Nov 17, 2006)

OK... I know this may come out wrong... and I DO NOT wish to sound elitist in saying this... But, I train in the Martial Sciences... to learn how NOT to fight...

It hasn't always worked... and I've had my fair share of scrapes and what not... but, all in all, I believe it's worked out fairly well...

Perhaps I've just been lucky...but, I haven't really been in a lot of physical fights in my life (39yo)... most issues have been resolved and/or otherwise evaded in some manner rather quickly...

The others were dealt with... and I still have a few marks left from some of those...

After all... if there were no confrontation to begin with... who would need to fight... and over what would they be fighting?

Now, having said all of this, I'd have to say that... when visualizing an opponent or opponents during training... I will usually attempt to conjure up the strongest image that would worry me the most if I ran across them out on the street... and then I picture myself fighting their big brother...

Just some food for thought...

Your Brother in the arts,

Andrew


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## Drac (Nov 17, 2006)

matt.m said:


> I train like I expect someone to kill me or worse yet my wife. Being a combat veteran from the Marines, I take my training very serious


 
Every former Marine I EVER met had the same kind of attitude..I wish a lot of my LEO brother and sisters would adopt that attitude




			
				matt.m said:
			
		

> I always expect at least two attackers.


 
Which is why we enforce in the academy to "scan the area" when making an arrest..To insure that the suspect doesn't have any friends waiting to help him...


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## Cirdan (Nov 17, 2006)

Someone or multiple someones with two legs, two arms and a head.


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## morph4me (Nov 17, 2006)

Drac said:


> That's the LEO way too...


 
Except that LEO's have different goals when they start, and they always seem to be running in the wrong direction.  I'm not concerned about making an arrest, and I get to run *away* from the problem


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## Shotochem (Nov 27, 2006)

MSTCND said:


> OK... I know this may come out wrong... and I DO NOT wish to sound elitist in saying this... But, I train in the Martial Sciences... to learn how NOT to fight...
> 
> It hasn't always worked... and I've had my fair share of scrapes and what not... but, all in all, I believe it's worked out fairly well...
> 
> ...


 
No, that's not elitist at all.  It's an admirable goal that we all strive for.
I would rather laugh it off and walk away that fight on any given day.

Sadly, there are others in this world that do not think as most of us do.

                                                                              -Marc-


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