# Breaking down the spinning wheel kick



## dvcochran (Nov 18, 2017)

I am curious how other practitioners are taught.

Often I see misunderstanding between the crescent and wheel kick. I am aware of two crescents; inside and outside. Often the outside is used as a spinning kick. Spinning or not the outside crescent strike is with the blade (outside) of the foot. I use the spinning crescent as a closer in kick always going to the outside of the body, over the shoulder to the ear or side of the face/jaw. From a fighting stance the reverse (back leg) crescent is a low percentage kick and it exposes your front side during the kick. However, if you are open stance to your opponent it can be effective. Front leg crescents are weak but can be effective blocking. Wheel kicks (always spinning) are great for the speedster. Very fast, very powerful, an accomplished kicker can hit the wheel faster than most people can throw a reverse kick. And can often kick through a front leg kick still being effective. Very good defensively as they create little opening when done correctly.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> I am aware of two crescents; inside and outside. Often the outside is used as a spinning kick.


The "outside crescent kick" can also be used to escape your opponent's leg attack. When your opponent tries to

- roundhouse kick below your knee,
- hook your leg,
- cut your leg,
- sweep your leg,
- ...

you can use it to move your leg over his attacking leg and let his leg to kick into the thin air.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 18, 2017)

The first issue is terminology.   A Chang Hon Crescent kick is likely not what you are describing.   For that system it sounds like the equivalent pf a Vertical kick with the outside edge of the foot which is called the "Foot Sword" . Chang Hon has no "Wheel Kick" I can only guess it is similar to the "Reverse Turning Kick which is usually performed with the  back of the heel when the foot is not pointing - 90 degrees to the leg but can also be done with the bottom / ball of the foot if the foot is "Pointed"  .  

 Now to the point of how or what is effective.   Again this will depend in part on the sparring rule set..

 However IMNSHO you should "Set Up" any rear leg kick with a lead hand or lead leg technique.  As a rear leg counter the timing is part of the set up.


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## dvcochran (Nov 19, 2017)

Mr. Weiss, I agree semantics make naming question foggy across styles sometimes. Bahl nahl I think is the same at Chang Hon, so are we in agreement it is a kick using the outside edge (blade) of the foot? Assuming we are, can you describe the technical components of how you do the kick when spinning? I often see it taught as a straight leg kick from beginning to end. I disagree with this concept. It is a vertical kick is the respect that the body is straight up. The knee of the spinning leg does bend raising it high to the chest. This is a defensive posture that also make it easier to get the required height. It can also make the opponent question where you are aiming the kick making it more difficult to block. So the body is straight up, the head is around eyes on the target, the hands are up by the face, especially the lead hand, the knee is bent high to the chest. This is how it can be a close in kick.  The outside hip muscle (tensor fasciae latae) really comes into play. The body should already fully torqued (twisted) creating power to bring the leg/foot through the kick striking your target. I think of it as more of a right angle motion, not a circular motion (the leg not the spin). Balance after the kick is very important. I want it to be my choice whether I land my foot back where it started or step forward. How do you teach it?


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 20, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> ..............., can you describe the technical components of how you do the kick when spinning? I often see it taught as a straight leg kick from beginning to end. I disagree with this concept. It is a vertical kick is the respect that the body is straight up. T?


 first question I have is "Spinning"  rearward or forward. . For example. If you start with the right foot back and are kicking with the right foot , are you turning clockwise (Rearward) ?    We also do the same kick turning forward / counter clockwise, initially a CCW turn and then foot would move from left to right.


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## dvcochran (Nov 20, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> first question I have is "Spinning"  rearward or forward. . For example. If you start with the right foot back and are kicking with the right foot , are you turning clockwise (Rearward) ?    We also do the same kick turning forward / counter clockwise, initially a CCW turn and then foot would move from left to right.


Let's talk about a right leg back, back leg, clockwise kick for sake of argument. You kick the back counter-clockwise?


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## dvcochran (Nov 20, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> The first issue is terminology.   A Chang Hon Crescent kick is likely not what you are describing.   For that system it sounds like the equivalent pf a Vertical kick with the outside edge of the foot which is called the "Foot Sword" . Chang Hon has no "Wheel Kick" I can only guess it is similar to the "Reverse Turning Kick which is usually performed with the  back of the heel when the foot is not pointing - 90 degrees to the leg but can also be done with the bottom / ball of the foot if the foot is "Pointed"  .
> 
> Now to the point of how or what is effective.   Again this will depend in part on the sparring rule set..
> 
> However IMNSHO you should "Set Up" any rear leg kick with a lead hand or lead leg technique.  As a rear leg counter the timing is part of the set up.


I am trying go get a conversation started about mechanics. Terminology is important to get us on the same page which I think we are.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 21, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> Let's talk about a right leg back, back leg, clockwise kick for sake of argument. You kick the back counter-clockwise?


 You can do a right leg back outside blade of foot kick  turning clockwise or counter clock wise.   If you start turning counter clock wise the leg will initil trvel that way and then come across from your left to your right.  I will address mechanics of CW / rearward turn in next post.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 21, 2017)

I teach in different stages depending on experience / ability.  CW Kick right leg bck

Beginner. Lead leg pivot as far as possible with little rotation of anything else, , shoulders rotate placing kicking side hand behind back with forearm parallel to belt look at target, then kick with kicking side shoulder passing target before foot with shoulders nearly full facing as kick makes target. Kicking leg knee is slightly flexed and extends fully but not locked just before contact. .

After above done fairly well, both hands are extended more to the side nd swung to facilitate rotation, pulling hands in to more of a guarding position as you turn this uses  the "Conservation of angular" momentum like a spinning figure skater to increase speed of rotation. 

After above done well kicking foot starts with heel up and ball of foot on floor with knee slightly flexed and loaded.  Instead of using just spin / weight shift and leg lift to get foot to target the foot  pivots slightly sideways as the lead foot pivots.  and pushes off the floor to facilitate it's travel. 

It is note that hand positions for above are for learning / training and are modified to guard position for sparring.


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## Buka (Nov 21, 2017)

In American Karate we throw a wheel kick like this. Is this the wheel kick being discussed?


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 21, 2017)

Buka said:


> In American Karate we throw a wheel kick like this. Is this the wheel kick being discussed?


 That is why I tried to nail down how the Op defined the term. Joe Rogan is using the back of the heel. The OP explains that they are using the outside edge (Small toe side)  of the foot .   Joe Rogan has the foot nearly horizontal at impact. The kick referred to by the OP has the foot vertical at impact.   The foot position also requires different degrees of shoulder / hip rotation for a powerful kick.


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## dvcochran (Nov 21, 2017)

Buka said:


> In American Karate we throw a wheel kick like this. Is this the wheel kick being discussed?


Yes, the kick to Bob (wavemaster) is spot on. Really strong. Notice how the leg is not straight from start to finish. For me, that is where I get  a lot of the power. It also helps with balance.


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## Buka (Nov 22, 2017)

Thank you, gentlemen.

Good kicking is such a wonderful thing. An absolute joy to be honest. To me, if you're really good at it tactically, it's more fun than anything else in fighting. If you ain't there yet, or don't care to be, that's okay, too, it probably doesn't mean as much. Nor does it matter.


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## dvcochran (Nov 22, 2017)

For clarification, the Rogan video shows the "perfect" WHEEL kick in my opinion. I have search for cresent kick videos so I am wondering what the input is for explaining the difference between the two. How/when do you use each kick?


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 22, 2017)

The mechanics I described for the "Reverse Vertical Kick" which uses the outside Blade of the foot vs the one Rogan shows using the back of the heel   (Chang Hon reverse turning kick except for offset of Chang Hon usual target) , are pretty much the same with regard to how the spin is performed. Major difference is that the shoulder goes slightly past the target before the kick lands with the foot horizontal or toes slightly lower than heel versus outside edge / footsword vertical kick having shoulder go way past the target to nearly full facing and foot being vertical.


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## Buka (Nov 22, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> For clarification, the Rogan video shows the "perfect" WHEEL kick in my opinion. I have search for cresent kick videos so I am wondering what the input is for explaining the difference between the two. How/when do you use each kick?



I'd like to discuss this in depth, but it will have to be  later, I'm heading out for a twelve hour shift. Then the Holiday, yada, yada. But I'd like to give you my thoughts.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 22, 2017)

Rogan's "Rough on the Knee / Stiff legged" comment at :55 is a common issue.   IMO the leg is nearly straight but not locked at impact.  Kaving a 5 degree or so bend allows the impact to be absorbed by muscles, ligaments and tendons as opposed to forcing the joint past it's normal range. 

Here is a video I did for the surgeon who replaced my hip. At 2:55  I was doing some reverse Vertical Kicks and at 3:14 some reveres spinning heel kicks.


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## dvcochran (Nov 22, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> Rogan's "Rough on the Knee / Stiff legged" comment at :55 is a common issue.   IMO the leg is nearly straight but not locked at impact.  Kaving a 5 degree or so bend allows the impact to be absorbed by muscles, ligaments and tendons as opposed to forcing the joint past it's normal range.
> 
> Here is a video I did for the surgeon who replaced my hip. At 2:55  I was doing some reverse Vertical Kicks and at 3:14 some reveres spinning heel kicks.


Very nice. Are you saying you did the video the same day of surgery? You are a tough nut. We teach inside/outside crescent kicks differently. To have more force and application, they are squared off on the latter stages of the kick. The foot comes up knee high to the chest, then the kick is linear, going straight across the target (head) instead of glancing over in the traditional circular motion. Especially effective with the outside crescent, spinning or not as it makes it harder to tell where the kick is going. 
I hope your rehab goes very although it doesn't appear you will need much.


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## KabutoKouji (Nov 23, 2017)

is it like a spinning hooking kick but not as chambered?


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 23, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> Very nice. Are you saying you did the video the same day of surgery? /QUOTE]
> .





No, this was about a year post op. I did not have he minimally invasive type


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 23, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> I hope your rehab goes very although it doesn't appear you will need much.


What I need is to be 30 years younger with all original parts and none broken.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 23, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> No, this was about a year post op. I did not have he minimally invasive type


Was there a correlation between TKD and needing hip surgery?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 23, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> What I need is to be 30 years younger with all original parts and none broken.


I was holding the pad for some young girls (8-10) doing spinning hook kicks.  It's amazing how "off" their technique can be, yet they still do the kick reasonably well due to flexibility.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 23, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> The first issue is terminology.   A Chang Hon Crescent kick is likely not what you are describing.   For that system it sounds like the equivalent pf a Vertical kick with the outside edge of the foot which is called the "Foot Sword" . Chang Hon has no "Wheel Kick" I can only guess it is similar to the "Reverse Turning Kick which is usually performed with the  back of the heel when the foot is not pointing - 90 degrees to the leg but can also be done with the bottom / ball of the foot if the foot is "Pointed"  .
> 
> Now to the point of how or what is effective.   Again this will depend in part on the sparring rule set..
> 
> However IMNSHO you should "Set Up" any rear leg kick with a lead hand or lead leg technique.  As a rear leg counter the timing is part of the set up.



Gotta love the differences in terminology...
In our branch of the MDK, there is no wheel kick. What the OP is describing we would call a spinning hook kick, which is what you call a reverse turning kick. The Chang Hon turning kick is equivalent to our roundhouse kick. We do teach a reverse (or spinning) roundhouse, but I've always found it awkward (though deceptive...) and I don't think I'll get into the mechanics in this thread, to avoid derailing it.
The Chang Hon vertical kick using the outside edge of the foot would be what we call an outside crescent.



dvcochran said:


> Mr. Weiss, I agree semantics make naming question foggy across styles sometimes. Bahl nahl I think is the same at Chang Hon, so are we in agreement it is a kick using the outside edge (blade) of the foot? Assuming we are, can you describe the technical components of how you do the kick when spinning? I often see it taught as a straight leg kick from beginning to end. I disagree with this concept. It is a vertical kick is the respect that the body is straight up. The knee of the spinning leg does bend raising it high to the chest. This is a defensive posture that also make it easier to get the required height. It can also make the opponent question where you are aiming the kick making it more difficult to block. So the body is straight up, the head is around eyes on the target, the hands are up by the face, especially the lead hand, the knee is bent high to the chest. This is how it can be a close in kick.  The outside hip muscle (tensor fasciae latae) really comes into play. The body should already fully torqued (twisted) creating power to bring the leg/foot through the kick striking your target. I think of it as more of a right angle motion, not a circular motion (the leg not the spin). Balance after the kick is very important. I want it to be my choice whether I land my foot back where it started or step forward. How do you teach it?



Straight leg throughout will give more power. Bent leg with later extension will result in less power, but more a quicker turn and will be more deceptive. 
If the toes are pointing up, striking with the edge of the foot, it would be a crescent kick; if they're parallel to the ground, striking with the heel or ball of the foot, it would be a hook kick.



Earl Weiss said:


> first question I have is "Spinning"  rearward or forward. . For example. If you start with the right foot back and are kicking with the right foot , are you turning clockwise (Rearward) ?    We also do the same kick turning forward / counter clockwise, initially a CCW turn and then foot would move from left to right.



Spinning is rearward. The kick can be done by turning forward, but that is mostly to be deceptive. The forward turn can be used to make it look like you're throwing a round house (what you would call a turning kick) to the ribs, encouraging them to block that side of the body. The leg is kept flexed till it passes the body, then extended and the heel brought back into the head from the side opposite where the roundhouse would be expected to land.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Was there a correlation between TKD and needing hip surgery?



Life tears up joints. Trying to prove that a single activity out of allllllll the ones we engage in caused the need for surgery would be impossible.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 23, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Was there a correlation between TKD and needing hip surgery?



Not exactly.   When I was almost 50 I found out i was born with a misalignment in my hips. Gave great insight into why I always had trouble getting my foot to point slightly downward for side piercing kicks. I was told that this condition if discovered today in youngsters while growing is addressed with braces etc.  but I was way past that stage. Doc said people with that issue will need hip replacement.  At that time I had no pain but a couple of years later I had to have it. 

I am sure that impact training, such as running (Did one Marathon) and kicking exceedingly heavy bags played a role.   In the 1970's it was a thing to brag how we were mashing 80-100lb bags.   He Il Cho writes in one of his books not to use any bag over 60lbs because it is too jarring.    Don Wilson opined that martial artists have issues because anatomically the hip joint is built to take impact when from the leg  in a standing alignment but the impact angle for side kicks is much different.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 23, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Gotta love the differences in terminology...
> In our branch of the MDK, there is no wheel kick. What the OP is describing we would call a spinning hook kick, which is what you call a reverse turning kick.
> .



Not exactly. You are correct that the "Round House"  kick is similar to the Chang Hon "Turning Kick" or more accurately the "Side Turning Kick" since the Tuning kick is for a target approximately 45 degrees to the front while the side turning kick (You have turned sideways) is to a target straight ahead.   

Reverse turning is so named because the body rotates opposite or reverse direction of the turning kick. The Usual tool / contact surface is the heel or it could be the sole if the foot is pointed. 

Spinning hook sounds more like what we would call Reverse hook. Similar in rotation and execution to reverse turning except the leg is mostly extended until it's about 15 degrees before the target and then the knee bends sharply.    This sharp bend of the knee for the reverse hook kick increases the speed of the tool which is why this is the kick of choice for suspended breaks as opposed to a reverse turniing kick whichi would have a leg that is mostly straight throughout.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 23, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> Not exactly. You are correct that the "Round House"  kick is similar to the Chang Hon "Turning Kick" or more accurately the "Side Turning Kick" since the Tuning kick is for a target approximately 45 degrees to the front while the side turning kick (You have turned sideways) is to a target straight ahead.
> 
> Reverse turning is so named because the body rotates opposite or reverse direction of the turning kick. The Usual tool / contact surface is the heel or it could be the sole if the foot is pointed.
> 
> Spinning hook sounds more like what we would call Reverse hook. Similar in rotation and execution to reverse turning except the leg is mostly extended until it's about 15 degrees before the target and then the knee bends sharply.    This sharp bend of the knee for the reverse hook kick increases the speed of the tool which is why this is the kick of choice for suspended breaks as opposed to a reverse turniing kick whichi would have a leg that is mostly straight throughout.



The big difference seems to be (not shockingly...) terminology. What you're giving separate names we just call variations of the kick.


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## dvcochran (Apr 30, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> Not exactly. You are correct that the "Round House"  kick is similar to the Chang Hon "Turning Kick" or more accurately the "Side Turning Kick" since the Tuning kick is for a target approximately 45 degrees to the front while the side turning kick (You have turned sideways) is to a target straight ahead.
> 
> Reverse turning is so named because the body rotates opposite or reverse direction of the turning kick. The Usual tool / contact surface is the heel or it could be the sole if the foot is pointed.
> 
> Spinning hook sounds more like what we would call Reverse hook. Similar in rotation and execution to reverse turning except the leg is mostly extended until it's about 15 degrees before the target and then the knee bends sharply.    This sharp bend of the knee for the reverse hook kick increases the speed of the tool which is why this is the kick of choice for suspended breaks as opposed to a reverse turniing kick whichi would have a leg that is mostly straight throughout.



I disagree at least in semantics; a front leg is just that, akin to a jab punch; a back leg kick is a reverse kick same as a reverse punch. A kick with rotation (180°, etc...) is a spinning kick. We practice spinning on both the back and front leg. Back leg spins are much harder to me as they are usually 360° spins. Hard on the old knees.  

I didn't fully understand you physical/mechanical explanation when kicking. In reference to a side kick, we teach to have the body fully inline; heel, knee, hip, shoulders in a straight line (toes down hips over). One big reason is so that no one part of the body is taking the brunt of the impact and so the force is shared throughout the entire body increasing power.

Hooks kicks are as described spinning or not. Separating the spin from the kicking leg; I teach the idea of reaching out with the leg "hooking" the back  or the head and pulling it back to you. Knee high arcing the heel slightly outside the target, then motioning back to or near the starting position. Never a rear leg kick, just doesn't make sense. Great front leg kick, very fast.
Just my tow cents. I look forward to feedback.


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## pdg (May 1, 2018)

While I obviously don't have anything like the experience of @Earl Weiss (who I'll happily defer to if I'm wrong, which I may be) I'd like to weigh in with my interpretation of what I've been taught / learned...



dvcochran said:


> I disagree at least in semantics; a front leg is just that, akin to a jab punch; a back leg kick is a reverse kick same as a reverse punch. A kick with rotation (180°, etc...) is a spinning kick. We practice spinning on both the back and front leg. Back leg spins are much harder to me as they are usually 360° spins. Hard on the old knees



For hand techniques, whether they are obverse or reverse is expressed in relation to the stance.

A stance is 'handed' after which foot is carrying most weight, or in front if equal.

A left walking stance (50/50 weight) has the left foot in front, so a left hand front punch is obverse, a right hand front punch is reverse.

Change foot position to L stance (left foot in front, 70% weight on the right leg) and while the same foot is in front, the punch names are switched - so a left hand punch is now a reverse punch (because it's a 'right' stance).

In both instances, the left hand punch is akin to a jab, but the change in stance changes the label of the punch.


For a kick from either (/any) stance to be 'reverse' you have to turn/spin/rotate.

From a right L stance, you could use either leg to perform a hook kick.

To do a reverse hook kick with the right (rear) leg you spin clockwise (akin to the wheel kick spin in the video), or to use the left leg you spin anticlockwise.

Same with a side (or any actually) kick - either leg with no spin isn't a reverse technique.


As aluded to before, a "wheel kick" using the back heel (leg almost straight) is a reverse turning kick, if the leg is more bent using the sole/ball and bends more with a flick around impact, it's a reverse hook kick.

There was mention of a crescent kick too - I had quite a discussion last night about this because the terminology has changed a bit over the years...


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## Dirty Dog (May 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> For hand techniques, whether they are obverse or reverse is expressed in relation to the stance.



And this is different, depending on locale. In Korea, a reverse punch is the front hand. What most of the world calls a jab.


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## pdg (May 1, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> And this is different, depending on locale. In Korea, a reverse punch is the front hand. What most of the world calls a jab.



I've heard that before, but never been able to find any reference to show it isn't stance dependent (an orthodox boxing stance for instance I would consider a right stance, so a jab with the left hand - as normal - would be a reverse punch, and a cross would be obverse).

Do you have anything that can demonstrate it?


(Not a snarky challenge, I'd genuinely like to know if this disparity of terminology exists.)


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## Dirty Dog (May 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> I've heard that before, but never been able to find any reference to show it isn't stance dependent (an orthodox boxing stance for instance I would consider a right stance, so a jab with the left hand - as normal - would be a reverse punch, and a cross would be obverse).
> 
> Do you have anything that can demonstrate it?
> 
> ...



I can't provide a link offhand. I'm going by what my KJN says. Since he's a native born Korean speaker, and has been around since the founding days, I don't argue.


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## pdg (May 1, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I can't provide a link offhand. I'm going by what my KJN says. Since he's a native born Korean speaker, and has been around since the founding days, I don't argue.



Yeah, that's a valid reference.

I wasn't arguing either, just an enquiry as to whether that's universally true in the language, or whether it's dependent on the terminology of the art (or sub-system).

I can provide a reference showing where I got my version from if you want?


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## Dirty Dog (May 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yeah, that's a valid reference.
> 
> I wasn't arguing either, just an enquiry as to whether that's universally true in the language, or whether it's dependent on the terminology of the art (or sub-system).
> 
> I can provide a reference showing where I got my version from if you want?



Not necessary. All it shows is what we already know - literal translation doesn't work, and terminology varies enormously.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I am curious how other practitioners are taught.
> 
> Often I see misunderstanding between the crescent and wheel kick. I am aware of two crescents; inside and outside. Often the outside is used as a spinning kick. Spinning or not the outside crescent strike is with the blade (outside) of the foot. I use the spinning crescent as a closer in kick always going to the outside of the body, over the shoulder to the ear or side of the face/jaw. From a fighting stance the reverse (back leg) crescent is a low percentage kick and it exposes your front side during the kick. However, if you are open stance to your opponent it can be effective. Front leg crescents are weak but can be effective blocking. Wheel kicks (always spinning) are great for the speedster. Very fast, very powerful, an accomplished kicker can hit the wheel faster than most people can throw a reverse kick. And can often kick through a front leg kick still being effective. Very good defensively as they create little opening when done correctly.


EDIT: Just realized this is an old post.


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## pdg (May 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> EDIT: Just realized this is an old post.



Yes it's an old post, but it was revived by the OP so still a valid ongoing discussion.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes it's an old post, but it was revived by the OP so still a valid ongoing discussion.


Yeah, but my post is less valid because of the number of replies already - I was asking a question already answered (in conflicting posts - terminology stuff).


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## dvcochran (May 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> While I obviously don't have anything like the experience of @Earl Weiss (who I'll happily defer to if I'm wrong, which I may be) I'd like to weigh in with my interpretation of what I've been taught / learned...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have to admit I had to look up the definition of obverse (head of a coin). We are back to semantics again but isn't some of this just common stance (country of origin withstanding)? 
I have never heard of a stance being "handed". Front is a literal term; right leg front, right hand punch = jab or obverse. Right leg back, right hand punch =  reverse.
"L" stance = back stance, weight bearing is the same.
Front stance =  body facing forward, weight about equal.
Horse stance = body perpendicular to target (shoulder offered), weight 50/50. 
In regards to kicks, if a reverse kick is a spin, what do you call a back leg kick. Reverse and spin are not mutual. A spin is simply a spin, regardless of stance. It is defined by the type of kick, but a spin is a spin, could be front leg or back leg. A back leg kick going forward (into you body) is reverse. Watch some Olympic matches and you will see a back leg spin (360°). 
In regards to your L stance hook kick with the right leg back, left leg is a front leg hook or if you skip a skipping hook kick. If you pick up your right leg and SPIN it is a spinning hook kick. We never teach a reverse hook kick (right leg back and going forward). It would be very impractical, hell you the knees and just would not work. 
The motion and purpose of a wheel kick is very different from a hook kick. A wheel is circular. Straight leg reaches further, bent leg is closer but still circular. A hook is an ellipse pulling the target back toward you.


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## pdg (May 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I have to admit I had to look up the definition of obverse (head of a coin). We are back to semantics again but isn't some of this just common stance (country of origin withstanding)?
> I have never heard of a stance being "handed". Front is a literal term; right leg front, right hand punch = jab or obverse. Right leg back, right hand punch =  reverse.
> "L" stance = back stance, weight bearing is the same.
> Front stance =  body facing forward, weight about equal.
> ...



All of it is based on semantics and terminology - in the kickboxing I do a roundhouse is rear leg coming around, effectively the same kick with the front leg is a turning kick. In TKD they're both turning kicks and a roundhouse doesn't really exist... So if I say turning kick the person has to know which discipline I'm referring to because it might mean the same thing, might not.

If you want to not include the semantic discussion here, just say and I'll keep out  There are some things on stances you may find interesting though...

I'll ask in my next class (tomorrow) whether there's a terminology difference for a 'forward' directed kick depending on which leg (front or rear) is used. Tentatively I'm going to say there isn't, but that's subject to change.

Something that may help explain part of some of it... iirc you made reference to a vertical kick having the body vertical - our vertical kick is so called because the foot is vertical (toes pointing up, directly above heel) and body position is kind of irrelevant.


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## dvcochran (May 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> All of it is based on semantics and terminology - in the kickboxing I do a roundhouse is rear leg coming around, effectively the same kick with the front leg is a turning kick. In TKD they're both turning kicks and a roundhouse doesn't really exist... So if I say turning kick the person has to know which discipline I'm referring to because it might mean the same thing, might not.
> 
> If you want to not include the semantic discussion here, just say and I'll keep out  There are some things on stances you may find interesting though...
> 
> ...



I enjoy the discussion. Helps me map the semantics.
I am not a big forum poster so I do not know what iirc means. 
I think what you call a vertical kick is commonly called a front or front snap kick. Facing target, body and toes up. Another kick where both the body and foot is vertical are crescent kicks. Outside (inside to outside leg motion)crescents strikes with the blade of the foot. Inside (outside to inside leg motion) strikes with the ball of foot.


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## pdg (May 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I enjoy the discussion. Helps me map the semantics.
> I am not a big forum poster so I do not know what iirc means.
> I think what you call a vertical kick is commonly called a front or front snap kick. Facing target, body and toes up. Another kick where both the body and foot is vertical are crescent kicks. Outside (inside to outside leg motion)crescents strikes with the blade of the foot. Inside (outside to inside leg motion) strikes with the ball of foot.



iirc is shorthand for "If I Remember Correctly".

From my understanding of the terminology we use:

Front snap kick is knee up, foot swings forward, hitting with ball of the foot (or instep if the target is the groin).

A variation of that is a front pushing kick, which is identical except for having a "push" motion instead of a "snap"...

Then there's a front rising kick, where the leg is kept almost straight and lifted to the front - either as a flexibility exercise or a defensive manoeuvre.

Crescent kick and variations - I actually had a discussion after class about this the other day.

What used to be called an inward crescent (foot is vertical and comes in toward, possibly crossing, centerline from it's own outside) is now just a crescent kick.

What used to be called an outward crescent kick (foot is vertical and moves toward it's own side, away from centre, can start from the other side of centre) is now a horizontal kick - the trajectory is horizontal.

These are all loosely classified as vertical kicks because the foot is vertical, but the only one currently named "vertical kick" is the horizontal kick (names are apparently interchangeable, I'm trying to ascertain as to what extent), ex-outward crescent.


Just for fun, the horizontal kick (outward crescent) can be changed into other kicks...

If you angle your toes toward the direction of travel and move in an arc, you can use that to defend against an incoming kick or punch with the footsword/blade of the foot (if you're flexible and fast enough) - then it's a hooking kick (note, not a hook kick, that's different).

If you do almost the same, but use the ball of the foot (or sometimes instep) as the tool for an attack, it's a twisting kick.

If you do an "inner crescent" but turn your foot horizontal and use the ball of the foot, that's a turning kick (roundhouse).



Some of these the body will be vertical due to skeletal mechanics, but that's unimportant as to the name of the kick...


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## pdg (May 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> We never teach a reverse hook kick (right leg back and going forward). It would be very impractical, hell you the knees and just would not work.



It can work very well, but not if you don't move the rest of your body to support it.

To use the front leg, you bring your leg to the target area and hook - to accomplish that you mechanically must turn your hip with your attacking leg, pivot on your standing foot if it's facing forward and pull in (heel to glute motion).

From a walking stance (somewhat akin to 'karate' front stance, but with square full facing hips and shoulders, both feet facing mainly forward) the action is the same for front or rear leg but the application can be different - front leg your centre mass moves backwards so range is limited but it's good for a close opponent or one moving toward you. Rear leg gives extra range (at the expense of a tiny amount of extra time) and centre mass moves forward so better for a slightly more distant opponent or one you are advancing on.

From other stances where you are half facing (L, fixed, etc.) you have to introduce an extra initial twist to the motion to set up the body lines.


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## Earl Weiss (May 2, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> And this is different, depending on locale. In Korea, a reverse punch is the front hand. What most of the world calls a jab.


Can't help but wonder if there is some connection to Chang Hon terminology.  (or Vica Versa)  In the Chang hon system a stance is named for the lead leg if weight distribution is equal and if not for the leg with the most weight on it. I.E.   Walking stance - equal weight -  Right leg forward is  "Right Walking Stance" L stance, right leg forward has more weight on the left leg and is called a " Left Walking stance.  If the punch is with the hand from the side the stance is not named after it is a Reverse Punch.   So this would be the rear hand for the walking stance, and the lead hand for the L stance.


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## pdg (May 2, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> I.E. Walking stance - equal weight - Right leg forward is "Right Walking Stance" L stance, right leg forward has more weight on the left leg and is called a " *Left Walking stance*



Should the bolded part not read "left L stance"?


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## Dirty Dog (May 2, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> Can't help but wonder if there is some connection to Chang Hon terminology.  (or Vica Versa)  In the Chang hon system a stance is named for the lead leg if weight distribution is equal and if not for the leg with the most weight on it. I.E.   Walking stance - equal weight -  Right leg forward is  "Right Walking Stance" L stance, right leg forward has more weight on the left leg and is called a " Left Walking stance.  If the punch is with the hand from the side the stance is not named after it is a Reverse Punch.   So this would be the rear hand for the walking stance, and the lead hand for the L stance.



I'm sure there must be a connection, though I've never really given it any thought.
This convention for naming the "direction" of a stance seems to be the same, at least in ITF/KKW/MDK systems. It would be interesting to know if any other styles do it differently.
The stances themselves certainly don't share names, though. An ITF L stance is closest to what the MDK and KKW call a back stance. I think the major difference is the distance between the feet - the ITF version has the longest distance between the feet, the MDK the shortest. What the KKW and MDK call a horse stance, the ITF calls chair sitting.
I always find it interesting how much terminology varies, given the relatively short history and common roots of the carious TKD styles.


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## pdg (May 2, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> An ITF L stance is closest to what the MDK and KKW call a back stance. I think the major difference is the distance between the feet - the ITF version has the longest distance between the feet, the MDK the shortest



From a swift look, I'd say the "ITF" L stance is pretty much equal to the KKW back stance - an extra foot length and it becomes a fixed stance (and switches 'hand').



Dirty Dog said:


> What the KKW and MDK call a horse stance, the ITF calls chair sitting



Take out 'chair' - it's just "sitting stance".


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## dvcochran (May 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> It can work very well, but not if you don't move the rest of your body to support it.
> 
> To use the front leg, you bring your leg to the target area and hook - to accomplish that you mechanically must turn your hip with your attacking leg, pivot on your standing foot if it's facing forward and pull in (heel to glute motion).
> 
> ...



As you said yourself, you are describing a FRONT leg kick, not a back leg kick. It is just that, using your front leg to attack. We are mostly in agreement with the mechanics. I assume when you say rear leg walking stance you are spinning. This is not a reverse kick as you are spinning. A hook kick is never intended for long range. The mechanics do not allow it. As you said, shifting your weight back can make the kick even closer. We also practice picking up the back leg and stepping back before kicking the front leg, timing it as an opponent is stepping forward.


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## pdg (May 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> As you said yourself, you are describing a FRONT leg kick, not a back leg kick. It is just that, using your front leg to attack. We are mostly in agreement with the mechanics. I assume when you say rear leg walking stance you are spinning. This is not a reverse kick as you are spinning. A hook kick is never intended for long range. The mechanics do not allow it. As you said, shifting your weight back can make the kick even closer. We also practice picking up the back leg and stepping back before kicking the front leg, timing it as an opponent is stepping forward.



I'm describing a kick with either leg, directed to the way you are facing.

Here's walking stance:


 

To lift and use the front leg you need to get your centre of gravity (the dotted line) over the rear leg - either by moving your body backwards in space, or by moving your rear foot foward on the ground. To lift and use the rear leg, the opposite.

If you don't, you fall over.

So, from that stance you can get your body over your rear leg and hook with the front, or get your body over your front leg and hook with the rear (rear leg effectively becomes the front leg as it's moving toward chamber/target).

That's the range I was describing too - absolute relative to the position of your body at the start.

At the time of impact, the range between your body and your target is identical irrespective of which leg you use and whether it came from the front or rear starting position.


What you call a spinning hook (I assume) is what we'd call a reverse hook - you turn fully, with your back being presented to your opponent (at least briefly).

From the left walking stance pictured above, for a reverse hook kick with the rear leg: you turn/spin clockwise, pivoting on the front foot - it'd look much like the upper body mechanics of the wheel kick in the video.

You can do the same with the front leg, but it's really awkward.

I'll see if I can find some sort of video reference...


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## Earl Weiss (May 3, 2018)

pdg said:


> Should the bolded part not read "left L stance"?


Just wanted to see if anyone was paying attention


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## Earl Weiss (May 3, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> This convention for naming the "direction" of a stance seeAn ITF L stance is closest to what the MDK and KKW call a back stance. I think the major difference is the distance between the feet - the ITF version has the longest distance between the feet, the MDK the shortest. What the KKW and MDK call a horse stance, the ITF calls chair sitting.


FWIW in General Choi's 1965 Book L Stance was Back Stance and Sitting Stance was Riding Stance.


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## Dirty Dog (May 3, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW in General Choi's 1965 Book L Stance was Back Stance and Sitting Stance was Riding Stance.



Just to add more confusion to the terminology variations.


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## Jaeimseu (May 3, 2018)

I don’t use the word “reverse” or “spinning.” I use “back kick” and “back hook kick.” So there’s some more difference in terminology. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (May 3, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> I don’t use the word “reverse” or “spinning.” I use “back kick” and “back hook kick.” So there’s some more difference in terminology.



I've never much liked the term 'spinning back kick' because I think it's confusing. If you're spinning while you kick, it won't be a back kick. It'll turn into more of a sloppy hook kick, usually. It's more of a turn, then a back kick.

So we confuse each other by using 1,473 different terms for the same thing, some of which are misleading to begin with.


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## Jaeimseu (May 3, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've never much liked the term 'spinning back kick' because I think it's confusing. If you're spinning while you kick, it won't be a back kick. It'll turn into more of a sloppy hook kick, usually. It's more of a turn, then a back kick.
> 
> So we confuse each other by using 1,473 different terms for the same thing, some of which are misleading to begin with.



Agreed. I hate the term spinning, because I don’t think of those kicks as circular. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gnarlie (May 4, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> Agreed. I hate the term spinning, because I don’t think of those kicks as circular.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Me either. They both move through 180 from stance to target. How can that be a spin?

Add in that the back kick path is linear moving out from the kickers centre. Where is the spin?


Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## dvcochran (May 4, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> Agreed. I hate the term spinning, because I don’t think of those kicks as circular.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE





Dirty Dog said:


> I'm sure there must be a connection, though I've never really given it any thought.
> This convention for naming the "direction" of a stance seems to be the same, at least in ITF/KKW/MDK systems. It would be interesting to know if any other styles do it differently.
> The stances themselves certainly don't share names, though. An ITF L stance is closest to what the MDK and KKW call a back stance. I think the major difference is the distance between the feet - the ITF version has the longest distance between the feet, the MDK the shortest. What the KKW and MDK call a horse stance, the ITF calls chair sitting.
> I always find it interesting how much terminology varies, given the relatively short history and common roots of the carious TKD styles.


Did you accidentally transpose ITF and MDK when mentioning distance between feet? Way back when we were MDK only, (no WTF, KKW affiliation), long, deep stances were a staple. To me more modern KKW stances a very short (walking stance), do not "look" as good, and have no value for conditioning. 
You guys ever use the term horse riding stance?


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## dvcochran (May 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Did you accidentally transpose ITF and MDK when mentioning distance between feet? Way back when we were MDK only, (no WTF, KKW affiliation), long, deep stances were a staple. To me more modern KKW stances a very short (walking stance), do not "look" as good, and have no value for conditioning.
> You guys ever use the term horse riding stance?




Cool! I have never been a Orange belt.


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## pdg (May 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Did you accidentally transpose ITF and MDK when mentioning distance between feet? Way back when we were MDK only, (no WTF, KKW affiliation), long, deep stances were a staple. To me more modern KKW stances a very short (walking stance), do not "look" as good, and have no value for conditioning.
> You guys ever use the term horse riding stance?



"Our" ITF stances are much deeper than the KKW alternatives, but not as deep as the comparable versions from something like Shotokan.

In the members in motion section @Azulx posted videos of him performing some patterns (form progression) which are the same patterns we practice. His stances are a bit deeper (more bend to the knee) than how we do them.

I think overall ITF (or Chang Hon derivatives in general) are longer and deeper than KKW, I have no frame of reference for MDK though.


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## Earl Weiss (May 4, 2018)

Gnarlie said:


> Add in that the back kick path is linear moving out from the kickers centre. Where is the spin?


 Because the body turns / Spins. Those words are synonyms. 
spin
spin/
_verb_

1.
turn or cause to turn or whirl around quickly.
"the girl *spun around* in alarm"
synonyms: revolve, rotate, turn


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## Earl Weiss (May 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> "Our" ITF stances are much deeper than the KKW alternatives, but not as deep as the comparable versions from something like Shotokan.
> .


I will leave it to Shotokan experts to elaborate but have seen much discussion about original Shotokan stances and those who feel they follow those parameters s being much shorter than what is often currently practice. Some Allude to Funakoshi's son as having lengthened them.


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## pdg (May 4, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> I will leave it to Shotokan experts to elaborate but have seen much discussion about original Shotokan stances and those who feel they follow those parameters s being much shorter than what is often currently practice. Some Allude to Funakoshi's son as having lengthened them.



Fair point - I have limited exposure to Shotokan.

I'll retrospectively alter my wording to "like Shotokan that I've seen performed".


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## Gnarlie (May 4, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> Because the body turns / Spins. Those words are synonyms.
> spin
> spin/
> _verb_
> ...


It's no more of a spin or turn than any other forward kick from the back leg though. It's not logical at all. 

Dollyo chagi tends to be translated as turning kick and anything that shows the back seems to pick up the word spin, whether there is actually any revolution involved or not. 



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (May 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Did you accidentally transpose ITF and MDK when mentioning distance between feet? Way back when we were MDK only, (no WTF, KKW affiliation), long, deep stances were a staple. To me more modern KKW stances a very short (walking stance), do not "look" as good, and have no value for conditioning.
> You guys ever use the term horse riding stance?



Nope. No transposition, intentional or accidental. In part, this will depend on which stance you're talking about. I was specifically talking about the ITF L stance compared to the KKW and MDK back stances.

ITF L stance:







KKW back stance






MDK back stance

 

The MDK front stance, on the other hand, is both longer and wider than the KKW front stance.


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## dvcochran (May 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Nope. No transposition, intentional or accidental. In part, this will depend on which stance you're talking about. I was specifically talking about the ITF L stance compared to the KKW and MDK back stances.
> 
> ITF L stance:
> 
> ...



It appears from these photos the KKW stance truly has the weight shifted to the back leg. The MDK photo looks typical of what you see in a person doing a Taeguek poomse. Knees barely bent if at all.
Grand Master Seoung Eui Shin teaches with some variation. When practicing forms, Pyong An and Palgwe, we widen or lengthen stances considerably. Foot relationship the same. The premise being a longer, more elegant pattern. In repetitive practice drills it gives the legs a very good workout, improving balance and strength. When sparring we shorten the stance and subsequent practice technics. The ITF stance is close in width but is standing pretty high. 
I think I see you reference MDK often. Which example(s) do you primarily teach?


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## dvcochran (May 7, 2018)

Gnarlie said:


> Me either. They both move through 180 from stance to target. How can that be a spin?
> 
> Add in that the back kick path is linear moving out from the kickers centre. Where is the spin?
> 
> ...



Do you rotate the body? In the context, rotate and spin are the same. Your back shoulder becomes your front shoulder. Ala spin. If I am incorrect. please give your technical of a spin.


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## Gnarlie (May 7, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Do you rotate the body? In the context, rotate and spin are the same. Your back shoulder becomes your front shoulder. Ala spin. If I am incorrect. please give your technical of a spin.



Spin is defined as turning around and around. Typical uses of the word spin are associated with that kind of movement.

Rotation may be only part of a spin.

The difference for me in the context if taekwondo is that if the kick has more than a full 360 degree rotation then I might call it's spin. But even then, if the kick is linear, probably not because it's a misleading word.

Most kicks involve elements of rotation, but don't really spin unless we're talking about jumping and multiple rotations.

In my experience, for example, people who call it 'spinning back kick' usually have a pretty weak technique because the name misleads their perception of the kick.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Buka (May 7, 2018)

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

We call it a spinning back kick. Never thought of it as weak, though. Certainly doesn't feel that way when getting nailed by one.


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## Gnarlie (May 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
> 
> We call it a spinning back kick. Never thought of it as weak, though. Certainly doesn't feel that way when getting nailed by one.


It's all relative. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## dvcochran (May 7, 2018)

Gnarlie said:


> Spin is defined as turning around and around. Typical uses of the word spin are associated with that kind of movement.
> 
> Rotation may be only part of a spin.
> 
> ...



It is an endless argument. I cannot totally differentiate even from Webster's dictionary. I know a spinning kick when I am hit by one. I cannot think of an example when turning towards one's back (right leg back turning clockwise) is not a spinning kick. We practice so many variations of turning pre-kick. I agree a back kick can be called linear but nothing else comes to mind but even then you are changing body presentation. I see a lot of spin kicks called side kicks that are linear but really they are back kicks considering body/leg/foot position. Back in the day I had two knock down submissions from spinning side kicks to the mid-section where our front shoulders were literally touching. About 240° in rotation so is that a spinning kick?


spin
spin/
_verb_
verb: *spin*; 3rd person present: *spins*; past tense: *spun*; past participle: *spun*; past tense: *span*; past participle: *span*; gerund or present participle: *spinning*

1.
turn or cause to turn or whirl around quickly
_noun_
noun: *spin*; plural noun: *spins*
1.
a rapid turning or whirling motion.


ro·ta·tion
rōˈtāSH(ə)n/
_noun_
noun: *rotation*; plural noun: *rotations*

the action of rotating around an axis or center.


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## Dirty Dog (May 8, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> It appears from these photos the KKW stance truly has the weight shifted to the back leg. The MDK photo looks typical of what you see in a person doing a Taeguek poomse. Knees barely bent if at all.
> Grand Master Seoung Eui Shin teaches with some variation. When practicing forms, Pyong An and Palgwe, we widen or lengthen stances considerably. Foot relationship the same. The premise being a longer, more elegant pattern. In repetitive practice drills it gives the legs a very good workout, improving balance and strength. When sparring we shorten the stance and subsequent practice technics. The ITF stance is close in width but is standing pretty high.
> I think I see you reference MDK often. Which example(s) do you primarily teach?



My earliest training was ITF and I still practice (but do not teach) the Chang Hon forms.
We are primarily a MDK school, but do offer KKW certification to those who want it. Off hand, I think about 80% of our active Dan holders are MDK certified. In part this may be because the ones most likely to choose KKW certification are those going off to college somewhere. They're certainly more likely to find a KKW school than MDK.


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## dvcochran (May 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> My earliest training was ITF and I still practice (but do not teach) the Chang Hon forms.
> We are primarily a MDK school, but do offer KKW certification to those who want it. Off hand, I think about 80% of our active Dan holders are MDK certified. In part this may be because the ones most likely to choose KKW certification are those going off to college somewhere. They're certainly more likely to find a KKW school than MDK.


Being MDK, do you teach the Pyong An and Palgwe forms only or do you incorporate the Taeguek forms for all?


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## Dirty Dog (May 9, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Being MDK, do you teach the Pyong An and Palgwe forms only or do you incorporate the Taeguek forms for all?



We teach 6 Kicho (basic) forms and the Palgwae forms as our 'base' material. People who want KKW certification are taught the Taegeuk forms.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm describing a kick with either leg, directed to the way you are facing.
> 
> Here's walking stance:
> 
> ...


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## pdg (Jul 25, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Ahh... Fudo Dachi in the Doshinkan Karatedo..... not to be confused with the Fudo Dachi of Shotokan Karatedo.



Maybe...

I do know that "walking stance" differs depending which TKD you look at.

Same sort of idea? The same, only different?


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## TSDTexan (Jul 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> Maybe...
> 
> I do know that "walking stance" differs depending which TKD you look at.
> 
> Same sort of idea? The same, only different?



Well start in a front stance. It doesn't need to be super deep like the way Shotokan style does it.







Then straighten the forward lead leg.
But dont lock the legs perfectly straight.

The weight distribution is 50/50.

which would look just like:


 


This is used in the second Kata that Kanken Toyama created. Kyoku Nidan.

In this for, It is used to bring the torso up high to use in a weight drop as you "fall or fast sink" into a forward stance while simultaneously executing a hammerfist with the leadhand [chambered by the ear, above the collarbone]

If the left leg is lead, then it will be the left hand that strikes, or vice versa.

it is immediately followed with alternating reverse punches without a pause.

So it is a three strike squence.

Left Hammerfist,
right reverse punch,
left reverse punch in a continuous rapid order.


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## pdg (Jul 25, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> This is used in the second Kata that Kanken Toyama created. Kyoku Nidan



Don't suppose you can provide a link to a video?

I found like 10 so far, and they're all completely different...


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## TSDTexan (Jul 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> Don't suppose you can provide a link to a video?
> 
> I found like 10 so far, and they're all completely different...



Doshinkan is very camera shy... there are only two kata that have been released to the public.
I will film it at some point for you. Or at least that sequence.


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## pdg (Jul 25, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Doshinkan is very camera shy... there are only two kata that have been released to the public.
> I will film it at some point for you. Or at least that sequence.



Cheers.

Feel free to make it private / pm if it's 'not the done thing' to publish it widely.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Feel free to make it private / pm if it's 'not the done thing' to publish it widely.



You will only see *fudo dachi* for a split second.
Because it's a transitioning stance that is held just long enough to have proper posture to strike the hammerfist from.

But when we review the kata, count by count its held for a half a count before the combo.


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## pdg (Jul 25, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> You will only see *fudo dachi* for a split second.
> Because it's a transitioning stance that is held just long enough to have proper posture to strike the hammerfist from



I did find a kata video with that sequence in, so maybe I found it after all.

Is the hammer fist a horizontal strike there?

I'd made the wild assumption previously that it was almost exclusively a vertical downward strike, so I was looking for that being chambered from the ear.

Also - lifting the body to use the dropping weight?

Welcome to the sine wave (aka "that funny bouncing")


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## TSDTexan (Jul 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> I did find a kata video with that sequence in, so maybe I found it after all.
> 
> Is the hammer fist a horizontal strike there?
> 
> ...



The hammerfist can be deployed, vertically, horizontally, and even diagonally.

And yes it is horizontal in this sequence.

Yep, Choi's sine wave existed before it was written about. I guess he Observed it.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> I did find a kata video with that sequence in, so maybe I found it after all.
> 
> Is the hammer fist a horizontal strike there?
> 
> ...



And what do you know... a buddy just Instant messages me this video.... He must have felt a disturbance in the force.


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## pdg (Jul 26, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> The hammerfist can be deployed, vertically, horizontally, and even diagonally.
> 
> And yes it is horizontal in this sequence.
> 
> Yep, Choi's sine wave existed before it was written about. I guess he Observed it.



I did _know_ the hammer fist can be used in many directions, but I forgot to realise and recognise it... Preprogrammed response to a word again.

And yeah, the "sine wave" has been around for quite some time without being so named - it's even used for digging sometimes


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## dvcochran (Jul 27, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> And what do you know... a buddy just Instant messages me this video.... He must have felt a disturbance in the force.


I have a hard time being impressed by "instructors" who talk talk talk the explanation of a technique but never show how it is done. Just doesn't have the same impact.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 30, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I have a hard time being impressed by "instructors" who talk talk talk the explanation of a technique but never show how it is done. Just doesn't have the same impact.


 People do stuff on videos in all sorts of ways for all sorts of reasons.  Such videos will only how a tiny portion  of what an Instructor can say or do.       People can be Auditory, Visual or Tactile Learners or a combination thereof. . Video can at best address only 2 of those three types of learning.  This video is heavy on the auditory. Suffice it to say I have been on the training floor with Master Stanley at a couple of Instructor courses taught by General Choi.  He is well equipped to address the visual as well and as the producer of  (for that time) ground breaking CD ROMS  put out by General Choi he is well aware of the need for visual reference.   What was ground breaking was having the patterns shot simultaneously with 4 cameras . One at each of the 4 sides, and by clicking on any side having that cameras view of the pattern for the video.


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## dvcochran (Jul 30, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> People do stuff on videos in all sorts of ways for all sorts of reasons.  Such videos will only how a tiny portion  of what an Instructor can say or do.       People can be Auditory, Visual or Tactile Learners or a combination thereof. . Video can at best address only 2 of those three types of learning.  This video is heavy on the auditory. Suffice it to say I have been on the training floor with Master Stanley at a couple of Instructor courses taught by General Choi.  He is well equipped to address the visual as well and as the producer of  (for that time) ground breaking CD ROMS  put out by General Choi he is well aware of the need for visual reference.   What was ground breaking was having the patterns shot simultaneously with 4 cameras . One at each of the 4 sides, and by clicking on any side having that cameras view of the pattern for the video.


I am sure that was/is excellent technology. I would caution him as to when he is being videoed or more importantly what is being done with the video. Your perception of the instructor is not the masses norm so a lot is lost in translation.


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