# Consciousness...



## Cruentus (Oct 10, 2007)

I am wondering, to what degree does our consciousness matter?

We really can only define what believe (or don't believe) in regards to a "soul" or "spirit" by our consciousness. We are only able to contemplate our role in the universe, morality, and where we go when we die because of our own consciousness.

So what degree do we think this is important?

How does our conscious impact the universe around us, as well as the other way around?

Also, how concious do we think other animals, like dogs or elephants, are? And if they have a conciousness, then do what degree do we give them the respect as another living creature? Do we think that they have an afterlife? Why or not?

Just something interesting to talk about...


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## Cruentus (Oct 10, 2007)

*chirp* *chirp*

Damn... no takers huh? :lookie:


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## Makalakumu (Oct 10, 2007)

How much does our conciousness matter?  Some people claim that when you stop looking at the moon, it might not actually be there.  I think the moon is still there.  I think that if no humans were around, the moon would still be there.  So would the Earth.  So would the entire universe.  

So, how much does our conciousness matter?  If you think about the scale on which our individual consiousness actually affects the universe, I would say that it really doesn't matter at all.  

We probably aren't even a pixel in the big picture.


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## Steel Tiger (Oct 10, 2007)

I had to think for a while about this.

I like to think of our conciousness as the immutable part of us.  Regardless of what you believe, the idea that you are aware of yourself is constant.  You can believe that you are part of the universe or the whole of the universe, or separate from the universe, but there is still that basic idea that you exist.

What you say about only being able to define our beliefs because of our consciousness is accurate I think.  Without an inherent sense of being we cannot begin to consider how the things around, whether they are physical, mental or metaphysical, us impact us. 

As to other species, I think that some have something of a consciousness.  I don't think it is as developed as our own, or works in quite the same way.  But, having seen whales, apes and elephants mourning the loss of a companion suggests to me that they are aware of the individual which suggests to me a consciousness.  Do they have an afterlife?  I don't know.  If your belief system ascribes to them a soul, then there must be an afterlife as well, unless they reincarnate.  Personally, I am not a believer in the existence of souls in the classic sense.  But in, truth I don't know about animal afterlives.
They are, however, worthy of our respect.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 10, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> I am wondering, to what degree does our consciousness matter?
> 
> We really can only define what believe (or don't believe) in regards to a "soul" or "spirit" by our consciousness. We are only able to contemplate our role in the universe, morality, and where we go when we die because of our own consciousness.
> 
> ...


 Avoiding the afterlife stuff, I will say thet there are varying degrees of conciousness. Depending on your mental and physical fitness, you will percieve information and deal with it at your level.
Sean


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## heretic888 (Oct 11, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> How does our conscious impact the universe around us, as well as the other way around?



_Tat tvam asi._


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## sirdarksol (Oct 11, 2007)

In no particular order...

Other animals do possess varying levels of consciousness. Elephants, as well as several forms of apes and monkeys, have passed the "self-conscious" test. The test goes like this: Paint a line above one of the animal's eyes, then set the animal in front of a mirror. If an animal isn't really self-conscious, a likely response would be to reach out and touch the difference on the mirror.
However, a self-aware animal's immediate response will be to touch the painted spot on its own head.
Aside from the scientific, technical aspect, I have a koi (Miyamoto) who has learned the difference between my own steps and my wife's steps. He responds to footsteps differently based on who they belong to. I feed him more often than she does, so he will rush to the side of the tank and follow me (staying as close to me as possible) along the edges of the tank. He'll "dance" for my wife (begging for food), but won't really follow her. There are other things that he's done that show me that what rests in that tiny little brain of his isn't just animal instinct. There's more to him than that. 
Same thing with my cats, my parents dogs, and a whole bunch of other animals I've encountered over the years. Every animal has some level of intelligence, in my eyes.

Does our consciousness matter? Yes, I believe it does. I don't believe that anything in this universe doesn't matter. In Christianity (the religion in which I primarily believe), humanity stole consciousness, yet God is all knowing, so He must have known it was going to happen. He's also all-powerful, so He could have stopped us if He wanted. Thus, we were meant to have consciousness (this is my belief, not typical of Christianity, and one of many that would brand me as a heretic in the Catholic Church's eyes). I cannot believe that God would do anything without reason, and so I must believe that consciousness is without point.
I apologize that I cannot give a more scientific or useful answer than this. Ok, I could, but it would take pages and pages, and would bore a bunch of people, so I'm not going to.

Personally, I think that human consciousness, in a way, forms the universe around us. The way we think determines how we see the world around us, which is what we see as "truth." 
Conversely, the universe shapes our consciousness. What we see determines how we think, which then determines how we see the world, which is what we see as "truth."


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 11, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> I am wondering, to what degree does our consciousness matter?
> 
> We really can only define what believe (or don't believe) in regards to a "soul" or "spirit" by our consciousness. We are only able to contemplate our role in the universe, morality, and where we go when we die because of our own consciousness.
> 
> ...



Conscious

Is one Conscious of the unConscious?

Is the unConscious Conscious of the Conscious? 

Is the Conscious Conscious that the unConscious is Conscious of the Conscious?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 12, 2007)

Time to throw some mud in the kiddie pool...

Unconcious Mind

Collective Unconcious

Subconcious Mind


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## Cruentus (Oct 12, 2007)

As someone who takes great interest in the Jungian perspective (Jung is what really drew me towards psychoanalysis, where as I previously didn't give psychoanalysis much weight), what do you all think of about the idea of a collective unconscious?

For a laymen's review of what Jung is talking about in regards to collective unconscious:
http://www.kheper.net/topics/Jung/collective_unconscious.html

So, keep in mind that Jung's model wasn't exactly a metaphysical one in as much as it was a biological one; as humans, we inherent our collective unconcious.


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## Cruentus (Oct 12, 2007)

And while your pondering that...

What is "death" then, really? If your physical body dies, but your consciousness remains to some degree, then did you really die? To what degree does our consciousness have to remain to be considered "alive."


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## Cruentus (Oct 12, 2007)

Further, back to animals; it would seem to me that animals and possibly plants are conscious in ways that we cannot relate or percieve. To what degree, however, is unknown to us simply because we are bound by our own perceptions. 

We can look at the mirror test as mentioned above and the results with dogs. When dogs are presented with a mirror, even puppies, they tend to not be interested in it at all once they are used to it. They don't seem to have a recognition of what is going on in the mirror, unless something of interest is presented in the mirror. When a piece of food or a toy or something of interest would be passed from one person to another, the dog wouldn't try to go into the mirror and get it. Rather, they would turn towards the person who had the object of interest.

Some researchers have claimed that this represents a good physical intelligence, but that dogs are not self-concious because if a colored spot or something similar was applied to change the dogs appearance, then the dog wouldn't respond. However, other researchers have countered this argument. If dog wasn't self-conscious, then the dog would respond to "another dog" in the mirror (growling, smelling, or whatever). But, once the dog recognizes that he is the image, he does not care. THis would imply that dogs are indeed self-conscious, but that they simply don't care about what they look like.

When dealing with animals, it is difficult to know to what degree they are self-conscious because what may interest a certain animal, may not interest us, and vice versa. So, for example, where as we might care about how we look in a mirror, a dog does not.

But we are bound by our own perceptions and by what we deem as important verses another life form. So, it is possible that other lifeforms do have varying degrees of consciousness and a consciousness that acts in different ways; so much so that we are unable to measure or percieve how or what that might be. 

Now we have quite a bit to talk about here...


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## Cruentus (Oct 12, 2007)

heretic888 said:


> _Tat tvam asi._


 
&#2340;&#2340;&#2381; &#2340;&#2357;&#2350;&#2381; &#2309;&#2367;&#2360;


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## sirdarksol (Oct 12, 2007)

Good points regarding the mirror test. There are, of course, flaws with it. The dog is a good example, but a difference in thinking and even physical limitations are other ones. For example, the mirror test will completely fail with dolphins and sharks due to their physical makeup. 
Octopi are extremely intelligent, really on an order that we can't quite understand their thinking is so far different from ours. These are creatures that live for one to two years, yet develop complex problem solving skills that take human children ten to fifteen years to learn. Further, their sensory input is not completely understood by us, and as how we sense the world around us affects how we consider it, we have further limitations in understanding their consciousness.


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 12, 2007)

Let me add this into the mix.

Mindfulness



> When you first become aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing, before you identify it. That is a stage of Mindfulness. Ordinarily, this stage is very short. It is that flashing split second just as you focus your eyes on the thing, just as you focus your mind on the thing, just before you objectify it, clamp down on it mentally and segregate it from the rest of existence. It takes place just before you start thinking about it - before your mind says, "Oh, it's a dog." That flowing, soft-focused moment of pure awareness is Mindfulness. In that brief flashing mind-moment you experience a thing as an un-thing. You experience a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Mindfulness is very much like what you see with your peripheral vision as opposed to the hard focus of normal or central vision. yet this moment of soft, unfocused, awareness contains a very deep sort of knowing that is lost as soon as you focus your mind and objectify the object into a thing. In the process of ordinary perception, the Mindfulness step is so fleeting as to be unobservable. We have developed the habit of squandering our attention on all the remaining steps, focusing on the perception, recognizing the perception, labeling it, and most of all, getting involved in a long string of symbolic thought about it. That original moment of Mindfulness is rapidly passed over. It is the purpose of the above mentioned Vipassana (or insight) meditation to train us to prolong that moment of awareness.


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## Cruentus (Oct 14, 2007)

These are all good reads, as is the recent one on "Mindfulness." 

But lets go back to the question regarding death:

What is death, really? I would argue that it is when/if your consciousness ceases. Do you believe that this happends, or doesn't happend, and please explain. [this is a matter of personal belief, btw, no right/wrong answer to be expected]


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## CuongNhuka (Oct 14, 2007)

Who said we're that conscious in the first place? If we were conscious, we would have noticed by know that almost nothing we do has any real affect on the world around us. Most of us are little more then fleas on the tushy of the Big Guy... or Girl... or what ever.


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## Steel Tiger (Oct 14, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> These are all good reads, as is the recent one on "Mindfulness."
> 
> But lets go back to the question regarding death:
> 
> What is death, really? I would argue that it is when/if your consciousness ceases. Do you believe that this happends, or doesn't happend, and please explain. [this is a matter of personal belief, btw, no right/wrong answer to be expected]


 
I have a slightly different take on death.  To me death is merely a description of the ending of the consciousness inhabiting one form and entering another.  To me the consciousness of self is constant but it is a completely internal thing.  No one else can perceive my consciousness of self just as I cannot perceive anyone elses.

Do I believe in reincarnation?  Not in the sense that it is guided by karma and we progress through forms until we reach one that can attain enlightenment.  Rather I see the self moving from one form to another throughout the entirety of time.  No pattern.  Just movement with a brief pause in each form.


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## Cruentus (Oct 14, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> I have a slightly different take on death. To me death is merely a description of the ending of the consciousness inhabiting one form and entering another. To me the consciousness of self is constant but it is a completely internal thing. No one else can perceive my consciousness of self just as I cannot perceive anyone elses.
> 
> Do I believe in reincarnation? Not in the sense that it is guided by karma and we progress through forms until we reach one that can attain enlightenment. Rather I see the self moving from one form to another throughout the entirety of time. No pattern. Just movement with a brief pause in each form.


 
Under that model, do you think that we have any memory or "ego" or recognition of ourselves of the past form when we move into a different form? 

If we maintain the ego (in the psychoanalytical sense), then by my perception, there really is no death. We may move from one form to the next, or insight and perceptions may change, but our conscious remains in tact.

If we do not maintain the ego, then as I see it, we truly do die at the end of our lives. Our "energy" may continue on in tact to a different form, or it may be splattered across the universe. Either way, our "selves" as we know it would be destroyed.

I don't know which is correct (nor does anyone for that matter). One definatily is more of a theist perspective then the other. Being a theist, I would like to think that the ego is somehow preserved. I am willing to take that leap of faith, anyway, at least for now.

C.


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## Cruentus (Oct 14, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Who said we're that conscious in the first place? If we were conscious, we would have noticed by know that almost nothing we do has any real affect on the world around us. Most of us are little more then fleas on the tushy of the Big Guy... or Girl... or what ever.


 
Oh...

On that point I would have to disagree. I think our actions and thoughts impact the world around us exponentially, and in ways that we do not yet fully understand.


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## Cruentus (Oct 14, 2007)

*whoops; double tap*


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## Steel Tiger (Oct 15, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Under that model, do you think that we have any memory or "ego" or recognition of ourselves of the past form when we move into a different form?


 
I have to say I have not thought about the maintenance of ego as we pass from form to form, but now that I, do I would have to say there must be some maintenance of ego or it would cease to be consciousness of self and become consciousness of simply being in a broad sense.




Cruentus said:


> If we maintain the ego (in the psychoanalytical sense), then by my perception, there really is no death. We may move from one form to the next, or insight and perceptions may change, but our conscious remains in tact.


 
I guess that is where I was trying to get to.  The physical form ceases to be, but the essential self (which must attend to ego in order to recognise it is a self) continues to exist.




Cruentus said:


> If we do not maintain the ego, then as I see it, we truly do die at the end of our lives. Our "energy" may continue on in tact to a different form, or it may be splattered across the universe. Either way, our "selves" as we know it would be destroyed..


 
I'd like to think that this is not the actuality, but I can understand how this position can be defended.  The presumption being that we are nothing more than a fortuituous energy pattern that is commonly occuring.  It vibrates in a certain way for a time and then is gone.  It's a bit sad really.




Cruentus said:


> I don't know which is correct (nor does anyone for that matter). One definatily is more of a theist perspective then the other. Being a theist, I would like to think that the ego is somehow preserved. I am willing to take that leap of faith, anyway, at least for now.


 
I am not a theist, preferring a Daoist philosophical point of view, but I would like to think that we (whatever that might be) continues through the infinite ages.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 15, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> *whoops; double tap*



Was that an UnConscious act or a Conscious act or just training.


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