# BJJ vs. Wrestling (Stand up fighting vs. Ground fighting)



## Cobra

I do both martial arts, the styles are the best. Both of those martial arts in my opionion are the best self-defense arts in a street fight. But who would win if a person of same experiance went against each other?

Consider both of there strenghts. Wrestlers obviosly dominate standing up, but BJJ has ground domination. If a BJJ guy gets the wrestler down, it can be all over for the wrestler despite he has wrestled on the ground, but only to turn him over. But if the wrestler can keep from being tooken to the ground, then the BJJ guy wil be in trouble. So who do you think would win?

It is a hard desicion, but I am going to go with the wrestler. All fights start standing, no one is going to start a fight on the ground. So already a wrestler has an advantage in starting standing up.

I obviously can't enforce anything, but try to not to get so passionate about whichevr style you pick. I don't want any verbal fights to break out on this thread like "My style is better than yours, so shut the hell up!" Also give a good reason why you chose whichever style you picked.


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## CrushingFist

How can these arts be best at self-defense? When WRESLTING is ground, who would be the stupid a88 to go to the ground in the street? Not Me, Would you?  

You know how many ***** can happen worst being in the ground than standing up?

BJJ I understand it has some striking and standup stuff because BJJ is Sport Jiujitsu (Grappling, Submission, Locks, etc no Striking) part, ValeTudo(EVERYTHING GOES, STRIKING, kicks, etc ) part, and Self-Defense part. 

But not all BJJ instructor teach these 3 things.


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## CrushingFist

I understand BJJ/Wrestling are good for Competition like UFC, Pride FC, but it doesn't work in K-1 (Standup Fighting) ? I wonder why? 

K-1 would be an example of styles that would work in street fight because since they are stand up styles (striking, kicking) thats what people normally do in a street fight. 

And yes BJJ use quote "95% of the fightts end up in the ground" but the person that usually ends up in the ground is the one that just lost or is getting F**KED up. I seen my friends fight people and take them down n just destroy them in the floor but they don't go down.


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## Cobra

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> I understand BJJ/Wrestling are good for Competition like UFC, Pride FC, but it doesn't work in K-1 (Standup Fighting) ? I wonder why?
> 
> K-1 would be an example of styles that would work in street fight because since they are stand up styles (striking, kicking) thats what people normally do in a street fight.
> 
> And yes BJJ use quote "95% of the fightts end up in the ground" but the person that usually ends up in the ground is the one that just lost or is getting F**KED up. I seen my friends fight people and take them down n just destroy them in the floor but they don't go down.


Grappling doesn't work as much because the fighters in K-1 specialize in striking attacks and don't know how to properly grapple. And by default they will punch or kick more because they specilize in strinking arts. Where as if you put a wrestler or a BJJ blue belt, the outcome would be a lot different.


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## CrushingFist

Cobra said:
			
		

> Grappling doesn't work as much because the fighters in K-1 specialize in striking attacks and don't know how to properly grapple. And by default they will punch or kick more because they specilize in strinking arts. Where as if you put a wrestler or a BJJ blue belt, the outcome would be a lot different.


So I will see you grappling somebody in a street fight . Hope you can live


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## Cobra

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> So I will see you grappling somebody in a street fight . Hope you can live


Hell no! If I'm in a back ally, I would look for a broken wine bottle or some kind of weapon. Cause you never know what they have.

If there is no weapons around and I had to use my body to fight, you bet I'll grapple. Grappling is much better for a street fight situation than striking. Grapplers always win the strikers!


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## CrushingFist

Cobra said:
			
		

> Hell no! If I'm in a back ally, I would look for a broken wine bottle or some kind of weapon. Cause you never know what they have.
> 
> If there is no weapons around and I had to use my body to fight, you bet I'll grapple. Grappling is much better for a street fight situation than striking. Grapplers always win the strikers!



Grapple in the street? Damn you must live in the farms then
How dangerous is to be on the ground you never know if somebody else is gonna come and kick you ... Wo0t!!!


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## Cobra

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Grapple in the street? Damn you must live in the farms then
> How dangerous is to be on the ground you never know if somebody else is gonna come and kick you ... Wo0t!!!


Nope, never lived on a farm, but there are a lot of people that would agree that grapplers beat striking any day of the week even if they have never been on a farm.

If the guy on the street throws a kick, I would grab the kick and do a takedown and then he is mine.


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## MJS

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> I understand BJJ/Wrestling are good for Competition like UFC, Pride FC, but it doesn't work in K-1 (Standup Fighting) ? I wonder why?
> 
> K-1 would be an example of styles that would work in street fight because since they are stand up styles (striking, kicking) thats what people normally do in a street fight.
> 
> And yes BJJ use quote "95% of the fightts end up in the ground" but the person that usually ends up in the ground is the one that just lost or is getting F**KED up. I seen my friends fight people and take them down n just destroy them in the floor but they don't go down.



K1 and a MMA event are 2 separate events!  I think that you're forgetting that BJJ also focuses on the clinch, which is stand up, which can be used in K1.  

Your friends that you're talking about....what is their skill???  Until you've seen BJJ at its best, I wouldnt knock it.

Mike


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## MJS

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Grapple in the street? Damn you must live in the farms then
> How dangerous is to be on the ground you never know if somebody else is gonna come and kick you ... Wo0t!!!




Nobody wants to roll around in the street, but I can assure you that it would be wise to have the knowledge on how to get back to your feet.  

Mike


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## MJS

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> How can these arts be best at self-defense? When WRESLTING is ground, who would be the stupid a88 to go to the ground in the street? Not Me, Would you?
> 
> You know how many ***** can happen worst being in the ground than standing up?
> 
> BJJ I understand it has some striking and standup stuff because BJJ is Sport Jiujitsu (Grappling, Submission, Locks, etc no Striking) part, ValeTudo(EVERYTHING GOES, STRIKING, kicks, etc ) part, and Self-Defense part.
> 
> But not all BJJ instructor teach these 3 things.



Due to the evolution of cross training, many of the BJJ instructors out there are adding punching and kicking to their program.  Ralph Gracie is a BB in BJJ, and he can punch!

Mike


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## MJS

Cobra said:
			
		

> I do both martial arts, the styles are the best. Both of those martial arts in my opionion are the best self-defense arts in a street fight. But who would win if a person of same experiance went against each other?



The person who can out think the other will most likely win.  Its all a game of chess on the mat!



> Consider both of there strenghts. Wrestlers obviosly dominate standing up, but BJJ has ground domination. If a BJJ guy gets the wrestler down, it can be all over for the wrestler despite he has wrestled on the ground, but only to turn him over. But if the wrestler can keep from being tooken to the ground, then the BJJ guy wil be in trouble. So who do you think would win?



BJJ is very good in the clinch.  They are going to be using strikes that the wrestler does not have.  Again, as for who would win?? See my above post!



> It is a hard desicion, but I am going to go with the wrestler. All fights start standing, no one is going to start a fight on the ground. So already a wrestler has an advantage in starting standing up.



See above!



> I obviously can't enforce anything, but try to not to get so passionate about whichevr style you pick. I don't want any verbal fights to break out on this thread like "My style is better than yours, so shut the hell up!" Also give a good reason why you chose whichever style you picked.



Wrestling is very good on the ground.  I've rolled with a few of them, and they kick a**!!  However, what they lack is the submission.  Look at Dan Severn in his first UFC show.  Great takedowns, but had a very hard time with submission.  In UFC5, he came back, and in addition to his takedown game, his striking greatly improved.  He destroyed Oleg Taktarov with knee strikes.

Mike


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## CrushingFist

MJS said:
			
		

> K1 and a MMA event are 2 separate events!  I think that you're forgetting that BJJ also focuses on the clinch, which is stand up, which can be used in K1.
> 
> Your friends that you're talking about....what is their skill???  Until you've seen BJJ at its best, I wouldnt knock it.
> 
> Mike



My old friends used no martial art experience just their average guy technique some are fast some hit hard etc. Basic boxing punching I guess


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## CrushingFist

MJS said:
			
		

> Nobody wants to roll around in the street, but I can assure you that it would be wise to have the knowledge on how to get back to your feet.
> 
> Mike



Yes I agree, but wouldn't it be even smarter not to let the guy throw u down? 
Its CONCRETE unless u wanna get hurt,


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## MJS

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> So I will see you grappling somebody in a street fight . Hope you can live



You're missing the point.  People hear BJJ/Grappling and right away they think just ground.  Not true.  It teaches the clinch and the close range strikes that you can use.  Many fights end up in this situation, and IMO, it'd be good to know about it.

Mike


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## MJS

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> My old friends used no martial art experience just their average guy technique some are fast some hit hard etc. Basic boxing punching I guess



Obviously the people that they fought had no exp. in grappling.  

Mike


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## MJS

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Yes I agree, but wouldn't it be even smarter not to let the guy throw u down?
> Its CONCRETE unless u wanna get hurt,



Very true.  The ground outside is hard, but to think that you may never fall or get taken there is not wise.  In the heat of the fight, anything is possible.  I'd rather roll on the concrete and survive, and get taken down and pounded and not get up.

Mike


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## CrushingFist

MJS said:
			
		

> You're missing the point.  People hear BJJ/Grappling and right away they think just ground.  Not true.  It teaches the clinch and the close range strikes that you can use.  Many fights end up in this situation, and IMO, it'd be good to know about it.
> 
> Mike



dOeS bjj teaches you to end the fight as soon as it starts w/o going to the ground?


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## MJS

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> dOeS bjj teaches you to end the fight as soon as it starts w/o going to the ground?



As I said in another post.....Many of the BJJ schools incorporate striking and kicking in their programs.  Look at Vitor Belfort.  Perfect example of crosstraining in boxing.  The grappler wants to clinch, not stand there are trade blows.  Many of the locks and chokes that are done on the ground, can be applied while standing.

Mike


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## CrushingFist

MJS said:
			
		

> Very true.  The ground outside is hard, but to think that you may never fall or get taken there is not wise.  In the heat of the fight, anything is possible.  I'd rather roll on the concrete and survive, and get taken down and pounded and not get up.
> 
> Mike



I rather strike or do a technique standing and finish it as soon as it starts rather than giving it time to get to the ground or whatever. 1 STRIKE 1 KILL I heard that quote from Goju Ryu Karate (I think) but then thats a very physical art but if the person is smaller and weaker I agree there has to be some kind of locks or vital areas to hit


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## Cobra

MJS said:
			
		

> Wrestling is very good on the ground. I've rolled with a few of them, and they kick a**!! However, what they lack is the submission. Look at Dan Severn in his first UFC show. Great takedowns, but had a very hard time with submission. In UFC5, he came back, and in addition to his takedown game, his striking greatly improved. He destroyed Oleg Taktarov with knee strikes.
> 
> Mike


Wrestler are really good with elbow and knee strikes because of how much the bend in wrestling exposing the knee or elbow, that is probably why the guy you are talking about in UFC5 was really good with knees.

As far as submissions go, you don't necessarily have to have good submissions to win a fight. You don't have good strikes, either, though that would help. Most submissions moves can only be used on the ground, so if you start up standing, and keep taking down a opponent, it will wear your opponent down eventually shutting him out. 

In any case, most people can strike regaurdless of having no training. I'm sure if a wrestler can take down someone and then kick them in the head for a while, it will be lights out for the opponent. Same even if you are fighting a BJJ fighter. It would be hard to get around to the head of a BJJ fighter, but a wrestler is greatly trained to get around for a pin, so it wouldn't be too much of a problem. That wrestling is one of the most effective street fighting method.


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## CrushingFist

So WWF stuff is fake because I'm sure that wouldn't work 
I never seen wrestling personally


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## Cobra

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> So WWF stuff is fake because I'm sure that wouldn't work
> I never seen wrestling personally


Oh, you haven't? It is a famous Olympic sport. It is also one of the biggest high school sports too.


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## CrushingFist

Cobra said:
			
		

> Oh, you haven't? It is a famous Olympic sport. It is also one of the biggest high school sports too.



Sports don't work in the streets or actual situation 
does it?
Sports are entertainment


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## MJS

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> I rather strike or do a technique standing and finish it as soon as it starts rather than giving it time to get to the ground or whatever. 1 STRIKE 1 KILL I heard that quote from Goju Ryu Karate (I think) but then thats a very physical art but if the person is smaller and weaker I agree there has to be some kind of locks or vital areas to hit



Again, trying to finish while standing is of course the best choice, but not always possible.  IMO, its good to be prepared in the event it goes to the ground.  As for the 1 shot 1 kill mentality....very over rated.  You need to be precise in that 1 shot.  Possible? Of course.  The best thing to rely on?? Not at all!!

Mike


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## MJS

Cobra said:
			
		

> Wrestler are really good with elbow and knee strikes because of how much the bend in wrestling exposing the knee or elbow, that is probably why the guy you are talking about in UFC5 was really good with knees.



I would tend to think that he did some serious crosstraining with someone to improve his striking.  In later UFC events, he was actually throwing punches.  Anyone can throw those strikes, but having the knowledge of where to throw them....that will only come from alot of practice.



> As far as submissions go, you don't necessarily have to have good submissions to win a fight. You don't have good strikes, either, though that would help. Most submissions moves can only be used on the ground, so if you start up standing, and keep taking down a opponent, it will wear your opponent down eventually shutting him out.



Not true.  As I said, many of the locks and chokes in BJJ can be done standing.  IMO, the person with the better strikes will most likely win the fight.



> In any case, most people can strike regaurdless of having no training. I'm sure if a wrestler can take down someone and then kick them in the head for a while, it will be lights out for the opponent. Same even if you are fighting a BJJ fighter. It would be hard to get around to the head of a BJJ fighter, but a wrestler is greatly trained to get around for a pin, so it wouldn't be too much of a problem. That wrestling is one of the most effective street fighting method.



Yes, people  can throw kicks and punches, but you cant compare a trained martial artist throwing strikes to someone like a wrestler who is not used to that.  As for whos better on the ground...again, when you're talking about equal skill, its whoever can out think the other person.

Mike


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## Gaston

Grappling skills allow you the choice as to whether or not to go to the ground; and when/if you do in what manner it will be. I have heard many arguments with regards to striking vs. grappling.  I assume the definition of a strike being an impact to the human body by a moving object.  In a street fight the most powerful strike you can deliver would be to reverse that definition and turn the persons body into the moving object.  Because unlike your hand, foot, or whatever you use to strike, the variety of objects to throw someone into, off of, or through are more deadly than any force the human body can deliver.  When a skillfully executed throw propels your opponent at _????_the striker quickly becomes the stricken.  As for what _???_ is just look around at all the things you would least like to have your body impact.


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## Bod

If you are comparing equal skill levels then the BJJ man would win against the wrestler if they are wearing more clothing. The wrestler would win if they were wearing less clothing.

Can sports help you in a fight? Track and field might help you run away. U.S. football or Rugby might help you evade and barge past people. Synchronised swimming? Only if you've remembered your nose clip.

Don't forget, all humans and animals originally learn to fight 'at play'.


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## MJS

Bod said:
			
		

> If you are comparing equal skill levels then the BJJ man would win against the wrestler if they are wearing more clothing. The wrestler would win if they were wearing less clothing.



How do you figure???  Granted, the gi can be used to assist in submissions but many of the fighters today are not wearing one.  It may take away from some of the submissions, but the BJJ stylist shouldnt have a problem with submissions regardless if they had one or not.

Mike


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## Cobra

Ya, BJJ does work very effectively without clothes cause many champs in the UFC primary art is BJJ and UFC fighters mainly wear short tights. But then again, there are many champs with a primary art of wrestling. so it is hard to tell.

How would you do a cross choke without a gi? It is hard to just grab their inner shoulders or back neck.


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## MJS

Cobra said:
			
		

> How would you do a cross choke without a gi? It is hard to just grab their inner shoulders or back neck.



Well, obviously you wouldnt do that choke.  There are other chokes and submissions to fall back on.

Mike


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## Bod

He, he. That's why I qualified with 'of equal skill'. The UFC BJJers you are talking about trained without the gi, as well as with the Gi, and they were of superlative skill levels. If they were winning without the Gi, do you think the Gi would have made things easier or harder?

Is no-Gi stuff BJJ? Or is it submission wrestling?

Some styles of wrestling allow submissions and some don't. I'm sure that would be a factor in deciding a 'winner' in a street fight. Say a wrestler pinned a BJJer for the whole of sixteen hours on the street. Does he win? If the BJJer submits a wrestler on the street does he win? What if the wrestler, hugely more experienced than the BJJer in this instance taps the BJJer on the street. Does that constitute a win, or a disqualification, according to high school wrestling rules?

I was trying to move away from the 'argument of which style is better?' towards 'what are the specialities/weaknesses of each style?', which is a far more productive question.

I do judo and get to train with Olympic style wrestlers and BJJers who also train judo. One chap I have trained with only twice is from Brazil, and I heard was a BJJ black belt (he is a judo black belt too). 'OK' I thought 'sloppy throws followed by lightning ground work'. Wrong. The cleanest most judo pure throws I had seen in ages against our clubs 5th dans. Turned out he was a 5th dan judoka too. And his ground work always ended in submissions. He was playing by the most constraining rules and aesthetic principles of judo _and_ BJJ. Only the purest of the pure for him.

Someone told me that he is a Pan-American champion. Not surprising.

But, and this is the point, is he a judoka or a BJJer?

Is a man enhanced by or constrained by the arts he practices?

On the mat he is constrained. In the street he is enhanced.


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## MJS

Bod said:
			
		

> He, he. That's why I qualified with 'of equal skill'. The UFC BJJers you are talking about trained without the gi, as well as with the Gi, and they were of superlative skill levels. If they were winning without the Gi, do you think the Gi would have made things easier or harder?



Back in the first UFC, Royce wore a gi all the time.  Once guys like Marco Ruas entered, you'll notice that he wore no gi.  People are not stupid.  Once they started to get a good or better understanding of BJJ and the ground game, they say the pros/cons of the gi, and it looks like they opted to go w/o one.  To answer the above question: It all depends on how they were trying to submit the guy.  Like I said, they should be able to adapt to gi and no gi.



> Is no-Gi stuff BJJ? Or is it submission wrestling?



Its still BJJ IMO.



> Some styles of wrestling allow submissions and some don't. I'm sure that would be a factor in deciding a 'winner' in a street fight. Say a wrestler pinned a BJJer for the whole of sixteen hours on the street. Does he win? If the BJJer submits a wrestler on the street does he win? What if the wrestler, hugely more experienced than the BJJer in this instance taps the BJJer on the street. Does that constitute a win, or a disqualification, according to high school wrestling rules?



What is your definition of submission?  A pin?  If thats the case, IMO, that is not a submission.  My BJJ teacher teaches a class at a local college.  I show up from time to time and the last time I was there, there was a guy who was on the wrestling team.  He had attended a few BJJ classes, but his main background is wrestling.  We rolled 2 times.  We started off on our knees.  He took me down right away, but could not submit me!!  Pretty much the entire time we was just holding me down.  I'll give him credit though...he actually tried a rear naked choke, but couldnt get it.  Too much muscle instead of technique, and THAT was his mistake!  Notice Dan Severn in his first UFC appearance.  NO subsmissions at all, just throws.  After his 2nd show, he was doing more strikes and eventually started doing subs.



> I was trying to move away from the 'argument of which style is better?' towards 'what are the specialities/weaknesses of each style?', which is a far more productive question.



I agree.  Again, it all depends on the situation.  Both have their respective pros and cons.


Mike


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## Littledragon

Cobra said:
			
		

> I do both martial arts, the styles are the best. Both of those martial arts in my opionion are the best self-defense arts in a street fight. But who would win if a person of same experiance went against each other?
> 
> Consider both of there strenghts. Wrestlers obviosly dominate standing up, but BJJ has ground domination. If a BJJ guy gets the wrestler down, it can be all over for the wrestler despite he has wrestled on the ground, but only to turn him over. But if the wrestler can keep from being tooken to the ground, then the BJJ guy wil be in trouble. So who do you think would win?
> 
> It is a hard desicion, but I am going to go with the wrestler. All fights start standing, no one is going to start a fight on the ground. So already a wrestler has an advantage in starting standing up.
> 
> I obviously can't enforce anything, but try to not to get so passionate about whichevr style you pick. I don't want any verbal fights to break out on this thread like "My style is better than yours, so shut the hell up!" Also give a good reason why you chose whichever style you picked.


In my opinion there is no BEST style for self defense. In order to be the best you have to be a multi dimensional fighter. You must know how to kick, punch, grapple etc... I think BJJ is one of the most effective arts for the treet but no style is hailed as the BEST.

Tarek Hussein


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## psi_radar

Wrestling was designed as a sport, the goal of which is to establish dominance by pinning. 

Resulting Disadvantages:
the last thing a wrestler will instinctively do is get into the guard position; they'd rather put their back to you and get to their "base". At this point, a savvy adversary could pick from a litany of chokes or strikes to do them in.

Advantages: Wrestlers are great at shoot and shoot counters, and highly agile on the ground in general, including escapes. The level of conditioning required for wrestling is also extremely high, and some of the techniques (basket, guillotine, ball and chain, standing quarter nelson, double bar arm, turk ride, etc.) can take the fight right out of someone, and cause exhaustion or a submission. As long as one of their buddies doesn't stomp them first.

On the other hand, select any type of JJ, these arts were designed, at least initially, as battlefield and self defense arts. As a result, they're more oriented toward fighting than competition and well rounded as well--they include some striking at least. 

I hold wrestling in the highest esteem, and have integrated a lot of its techniques into my MA repertoire. However, if I thought it was a complete or even adequate method of self defense, I wouldn't have started training in Kenpo or any other MA. Same goes for B/JJ--it's good stuff but you have to be able to fight from all ranges.


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## Kane

Some people say Wrestling is the sport version of Pankration, just like how judo is the sport version of Ju Jitsu. Though wrestling and judo are sports and have less dangerous techniques, it is still very effective to get a fighter in a position to do a dangerous moves. Wrestling also does have a few leg submissions of their own.


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## Aaron Little

It is important to remember that, just as wrestling teaches one to take their opponent to the ground, it also provides one a great degree of skill in defending takedwons as well. It can be quite difficult to put a skilled wrestler on the ground if he does not want to go there.


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## Shogun

They all (various arts) have their ranges and specialties. For instance, Judo, Shuai Jiao, and Catch-wrestling have better takedowns, but Jujutsu, BJJ, Sambo, and pankration are more versed on the ground. however, all of them have a little of every range. Its possible for a BJJ fighter to be better at takedowns than a takedown artist (like the Rodrigo Gracie/Daiju Takase match).


Personally, I think Shuai Jiao is the next great ring sport.


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## bignick

i swear...there needs to be a rule about posting a "art vs. art" question...they go nowhere...they always start the same....

"if someone from art A fought someone from art B....and they were equally skilled...who'd win?....i'm gonna say art A...(cause that's what i do, believe it or not)"

search around and you'll find plenty of these threads and they never accomplish anything...unless the original point of the post was to start a verbal fight...

who'd win? who knows? who cares?...when i was a white belt in judo and jujitsu...i would do groundwork with a guy that wrestled for 15 years...had a black belt in jujitsu and a brown in judo...most of the time he'd kill me...wouldn't even know what hit me...but every once and a while...he'd slip up and i'd get a choke or a good pin and i'd win...i remember one time he left himself open for a rear naked choke and i slapped it on so fast he tapped out like that...does that mean that all white belts in judo and jujitsu can beat all wrestlers and black belts in jujitsu?  

wrestling and bjj both have strong points and both could be used quite effectively in a self defense situation...and if you think they couldn't...you got another thunk coming...

and i stll want to see everybody's research on "95% of fights go to the ground.." or "the best place to fight is standing up..." and so on...real fights don't last long...wanna see a real fight...watch two women that are pissed at each other...that's real violence...no joke...most "fights" with guys are shoving matches and chest thumping trying to prove who's the top male...real fights don't have winners


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## RMACKD

Each art has its own strength and weaknesses. For example

Wrestling

Striking-I am assuming we are talking about Greco-Roman and Freestyle. These arts have no strikes.
Clinch/Takedown
Wrestling is very strong in this area. 
Groundwork
Emphasis is on pinning and positioning.
Multiple Opponents/Weapons removal
Has no techniques for this area.

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu
Striking
Has a few specialized striking techniques meant to close the distance.
Clinch/Takedowns
A bit weak in this area.
Groundwork
Emphasis on position and submission.
Multiple opponents/weapons removal
None

 Both martial arts have good aspects about him. Who wins, who would know. The wrestler could knock out the bjj guy with a suplex or other high amplitude takedown and he could also score a takedown and pound his way to victory. The BJJ guy could win by submission. Both arts have strengths and weaknesses.


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## bignick

or the wrestler could slip on the ground and hit his head and pass out...there are so many variables to take into account during a "fight" there's no clean way to settle this


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## Kane

bignick said:
			
		

> i swear...there needs to be a rule about posting a "art vs. art" question...they go nowhere...they always start the same....
> 
> "if someone from art A fought someone from art B....and they were equally skilled...who'd win?....i'm gonna say art A...(cause that's what i do, believe it or not)"
> 
> search around and you'll find plenty of these threads and they never accomplish anything...unless the original point of the post was to start a verbal fight...
> 
> who'd win? who knows? who cares?...when i was a white belt in judo and jujitsu...i would do groundwork with a guy that wrestled for 15 years...had a black belt in jujitsu and a brown in judo...most of the time he'd kill me...wouldn't even know what hit me...but every once and a while...he'd slip up and i'd get a choke or a good pin and i'd win...i remember one time he left himself open for a rear naked choke and i slapped it on so fast he tapped out like that...does that mean that all white belts in judo and jujitsu can beat all wrestlers and black belts in jujitsu?


The point of a style vs style is not to reach a conclusion on who would win. It is to see people's points of view and what they think. There is nothing wrong with debating on stuff like this. It only becomes stupid when it turns into a heated argument and personal attacks start. Martial Talk doesn't seem to have that many immature people who would turn something like this into a big argument (unlike Martial Arts Planet Forum).

Anyone disagree?


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## bignick

This is the original post in this thread:




			
				Cobra said:
			
		

> Consider both of there strenghts. Wrestlers obviosly dominate standing up, but BJJ has ground domination. If a BJJ guy gets the wrestler down, it can be all over for the wrestler despite he has wrestled on the ground, but only to turn him over. But if the wrestler can keep from being tooken to the ground, then the BJJ guy wil be in trouble. *So who do you think would win?*


The problem I feel is that it treats these arts as one dimensional...BJJer's would dominate on the ground, but wrestlers could destroy them standing up...and both arts are more complex than that and it's a disservice to simplify them so.

My biggest problem is that these discussions go nowhere, just sit and spin their wheels...or they do break out into flame wars....

Yes, martial talk does seem to suffer from relatively few of these...especially with how active it is and the varied views of all it's members....but why push things?


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## OC Kid

Well I dont normally get into these sort of conversations..but

How many actual bar fights/street brawls have any of you been in. How long have you been in the MA. 

Its my opinion is its up to the indiviual. A instructor as I tell my students can teach but cant make you learn.

A good stand up fighter is definately where its at. But Im starting to learn some grappleing just to teach to my students because of the possibility of them being taken down.

The falacy of 90% of all fights go to the ground is just that. Anytime a fighter goes to the ground its when hes ready to be stomped on by either the guy who knocked him down or his buddies or both.

A bud of mine was in Bagdag. he was involed in the house to house fighting that took place in the invasion. He went hand to hand and recieved a purple heart for it. Did he go on the ground..Not on your life. He told me me there is no way he would go on the ground with any one. The idea of training is not to go on the ground.  

I dont know much about grappling like I said but I know how to fight If you take art just for fighting then its best to learn from the sneakiest, meanest SOB you know. Most good fighters have a lot of tricks that are just not taught in a school. Example a instructor can teach a student techniques but can he teach a student the ability to survive?
That comes from with in.

How many instructors can teach a student instincts. The ability to when they are being set up. Such as some hot babe inna bar or even school flirting with you getting you away from the crowd and then her BF beating the crap outta ya and rolling you.
Even those so called reality based training programs cant teach you the skills you really need. Ive never seen anyone in the UFC or K1 getting hit with a beer bottle or pool cue from behind and have 2 or 3 guys jump on him.


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## MJS

I think its important to keep in mind that while BJJ certainly hit a huge craze in the early 90's, its not the 'ultimate art' but it is important to have a basic understanding of grappling, at the very least, to be able to properly be able to get up from the ground.  

Alot of people seem to neglect this training because they think just that...that they'll never end up there.  Well, I dont know of many if any at all that can predict the future, so I really dont understand how anyone can say they'll never end up there.  

IMO, its wise to have an understanding of all the ranges of fighting.  I have never tried to steer people away from their current training, to go and take up BJJ for the next 20yrs, but at least get familiar with the ground.  If you've never been there, I can assure you its a very different feeling.  I remember my first grappling lesson.  To give me an example, we started off in the mount.  He then told me to get out from under him.  Well, after about 10min of trying, with no success, I was convinced and began my grappling training.

Mike


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## CurtisB

I've been in a lot of these discussions on other forums and they all seem to go the same way with the same arguments. First off going to the ground is not something you want in a real self-defense situation. But that can't always be avoided. You may trip or slip, you may be tackled from behind or the side know your on the ground the guy is on you and he's flailing the hell out of you what are you going to do if you've never trained for that.

Traditional BJJ is good but must be modified to deal with this situation. Most progressive BJJ schools are now training No GI.

Our school adds elements of catch as catch can (good for leg locks and inflicting lots of pain) and Greco-Roman wrestling. We train to control the situation so we can get back on our feet as soon as possible. When you train this way you find that against an unskilled grappler its not that hard to gain the control you need. 

The bottom line is you don't want to be on the ground but sometimes you have no choice so you must be prepared. I have seen fights go to the ground on asphalt, concrete and gravel and I'm here to tell you when the adrenaline is pumping all you are thinking of is surviving you can ***** about the pain later.


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## eric

This topic will go on and on forever....but it has been stated before - each art has its strong points. Whatever area one spends his or her time training in whill be good in that area. Judo = throws, wrestling= takedowns and control, bjj= ground work and submissions, kempo and boxing = strikes. At our school we are bjj but we have guys that are excellent wrestlers and others who have boxed and another who is an established judo bb. We all recognize each others strengths and try to learn what is beneficial from each.


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## JDenz

I agree with there will be no answet to the question because it all depends on the indivudual that is why everyone today is adding the ground game into there styles because everyone needs to be well rounded these days.


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## SammyB57

K1 is kickboxing, that's why you don't see grappling, unless they are using MMA rules.

Wrestling slams will knock you out on concrete.

It's funny how people can jump to conclusions about arts they don't actually practice.


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## JDenz

Ya I meant to post that to that is what I get for writting high on pain meds lol.  In K-1 there is definitly no grappling allowed  Every now and then they have a fight on the card with diffrent rules but by and large grappling is not allowed.  Actully they don't let you pull a guy into knees anymore either.


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## JKD_Silat

I have six years of very sucsessful competitive wrestling experience. The first day I went to Eddie Bravo's no gi Jiu Jitsu school, I rolled with Gerald Strebent, whom I have a good 50 lbs on at least. Dude! Gerald ran a "submission clinic" on me! I found that the positions I thought were best, were exposing me to submissions, and after giving my back, and paying for it, I became a "believer". The funny thing was, Gerald was very much holding back (thank god), or he probably would have slapped a Twister on me.
From my experience, I could prevent being taken down, & take a lot of BJJ guys down at will (hell, they probably let me), however, I invariably made mistakes on the ground, or simply wasn't able to capitalize on theirs. The end result is I pretty much got schooled. I'm now a student of Eddie's, & I'm gradually learning to use my strenghts from wrestling, ie; takedowns, sprawls, manueverability, limb controll, and incorporating submissions to my ground game. Eddie very much encourages using my wrestling strenghts in my ground game, as he is extremly open minded.
Yes, I know that my experiences were friendly and not actually "fighting", however, at the end of the day, both BJJ, and wrestling have strenghts that can be learned from, and both have a lot to offer. It is not the "styles" that really counts, as ,much as it is the man utilizing them. He who is adept at both BJJ, wrestling, and striking would be formidable indeed. Like Randy Couture.


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## JKD_Silat

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Sports don't ...work in the streets or actual situation
> does it?
> Sports are entertainment


 
   Actually, wrestling dates back thousands of years to ancient Greece, when feuding factions, and clans would send their warriors to fight, and compete. This was seen as goodwill, however, often times wrestling matches  went to the death. Being maimed was not uncommon as well. Eventually, wrestling has evolved to its present forms such as Freestyle, and Greco Roman. Real wrestling is a game of chess with endless moves, and counter moves, and bears zero resemblance to the spectacle that borrows it's namesake on tv.Todays elite wrestles are widley regarded as being among the most highly conditioned athletes on the planet. Reason enough to respect their formadability in combat.
   As far as it working in the street, I for one would never want to face Dan Severn, Kevin Randalman, Mark Kerr, Don Frye, Mark Coleman, or current UFC light heavyweight champion Randy Couture (all world class wrestlers) in a dark alley. Ever. I doubt you would too. 
    Please excuse my rambling  diatribe, and poor typing . It's 3 am, and I've just got back from doing cardio at the gym after training my JKD, FMA, and BJJ all day.( I'm lucky to live in LA, the mecca of some of the best teachers arround.)
I'm half asleep, but I had to reply when I read this thread since wrestling will always hold a special place in my heart.

Regards


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## JKD_Silat

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Sports don't ...work in the streets or actual situation
> does it?
> Sports are entertainment


BTW. Boxing, and Muay Thai (you train in both)  are sports, and no one in their right mind would question their real life combat effectiveness....


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## JKD_Silat

I'll be sure to post when I have an opinion on this subject.


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## JKD_Silat

MJS said:
			
		

> Nobody wants to roll around in the street, but I can assure you that it would be wise to have the knowledge on how to get back to your feet.
> 
> Mike


 Ditto what Mike said. Ignorance is death...


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## JKD_Silat

Bod said:
			
		

> If you are comparing equal skill levels then the BJJ man would win against the wrestler if they are wearing more clothing. The wrestler would win if they were wearing less clothing.
> .


Not nesecarily with the advent of no gi Jiu Jitsu.  It depends on the men, and the attributes of the men as well. Skill, and attributes (endurance, flexibility, balance, timming, strength, coordination, visual/spacial acuity, speed, killer instinct/will to survive, ect.) are both importaint. Having balance in both skill and attributes are  vital.  See my above post about how MR. Strebent effortlessly made me his "girlfriend" on the mat.
(ok, I'm going to bed for real this time.  My girlfriend is getting p1ss3d!)


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