# Hapkido sword forms



## TigerLove (Jan 20, 2010)

I train Hapkido and Taekwondo. Since i started to practice hard ITF forms, i loved them, now i also want something like that in Hapkido. 

I found this on you tube: it's 8 hapkido sword forms.

I didn't found these or any other forms in any Hapkido organization, not as a part of belt promotion program, or in any other way, even mentioned.

Now, can somebody tell me - what is this? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Zd-Kyaqy8&feature=related

Here is form 5, at his channel you have the rest.

Also, information about some other forms is welcome.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 20, 2010)

Nothing that I recognize.  

I read his bio and some of the comments on the videos.  When he was asked where the forms came from he essentially said he did not know.  

None of it looked like flash & trash xma stuff; from what I saw, the forms consisted of actual cuts and thrusts, which is good.  But I have no clue what tradition it is from or if it is just something that either he or his instructor simply made up.  To be fair, the man does not purport himself as a master and does not make himself out to be particularly good.

Contrast the video you posted with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC6l3gEWUV4&feature=related

For something Korean, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVHgGV4l33Q&feature=fvw

The differences between the guy in the link you posted and the practitioners in the above videos should be apparent.

As a kumdo instructor, my recommendation is this: if you want to learn a Korean sword style, there are several out there.  If all you want to learn are Korean sword forms, see about cross training at a kumdo or HDGD school.  Or perhaps go to an iai school and learn it as a dedicated art.

Daniel


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## goingd (Jan 21, 2010)

I know nothing about this person, but the motions in his forms look very much like Haedong Kumdo, though they definitely aren't anything I recognize. Hope this helped.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 21, 2010)

Without knowing any HDGD forms, I cannot say if the patterns are HDGD or not, but technique wise, it all looked like pretty basic cuts that you would see in the use of any two handed sword. 

I saw a lot of vertical and horizontal cuts, some diagonal cuts, and some thrusts.  I did see a move that looked like it was supposed to be (this is the best that I can describe) wrapping the blade around from right to left and then cutting diagonally, which is in our Hankuk do bup pal hyung, but it was not executed crisply enough for me to tell if it was the same technique or just raising the blade and cutting diagonally.

There did not appear to be enough there to pin down a national origin or any specific lineage.  If I were an HDGD practitioner, I could tell you if the patterns were familiar (ours are all linear and move longitudinally).

I am curious to hear from any hapkidoin about what sword traditions, if any, are incorporated into their school of hapkido.  I do not know that there is a specific style or styles that hapkido universally associates itself with.  Over on a Kumdo forum, one of the strongest contributors was actually a hapkidoin, Bruce W. Simms.  I do not recall what tradition his sword curriculum came from; it has been a while since there has been any activity over on Kingdomfighter.  I would love to hear his thoughts, though I do not believe that he posts here.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Jan 21, 2010)

Daniel,
you are well trained. Go to yahoo videos and watch his sword forms.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 21, 2010)

The first form consisted of the following:
Step forward (North) with right foot and execute a vertical cut.  Repeat.
Step backwards with left foot, execute a vertical cut.  Repeat, bringing you back to the starting point.

Side step to the right (east) while facing ahead (North) and execute a vertical cut.  Repeat.  Side step to the left and execute a vertical cut.  Repeat, bringing you back to the starting point.

The second one looked like the same techniques as the first, but with more steps in more directions.

The third was a series of vertical, diagonal, and horizontal cuts standing in place and at the end, in what appeared to be long stances of two different lengths.

Four was very different from the rest and had a number of stances where the right hand was held out in a "halt" gesture and had a kick.  Lots of turns and spins, both one and two handed technique.  Loos more reminiscent of what little HDGD that I have seen.

Five looked like the latter half of number two, but incorporated thrusts, long stances and a horse stance.

Six had some one and two hand cuts, a drop to a kneel, and upward cuts.

Seven had a kick, a number of high horizontal cuts (presumably to the neck), a goodly amount of turning and wrapping the blade around his torso, and he ended up facing a different direction than he started.

Eight was vertical or diagonal down cuts to each point of the compass.

With the exception of number four, none of the forms had any flash & trash.  None of them had any 'unrealistic' techniques.  I was a bit surprised at number eight being almost as simplistic as number one.  One and eight looked less like hyung than they did like drills, but since I do not know the lineage of the forms, I will not comment one way or the other on it.

The man seems a bit stiff in the upper torso and arms and his footwork is not all that crisp, but he is not claiming to be a kumdo master or some sort of samurai, so I won't go into a critique of his skill (seen better, seen much, much worse over the years).  I am trying to avoid criticizing him directly because he is not making any claims of mastery and is not part of this discussion.  

If the guy in the video had been a Korean master with impeccable technique performing them in a dojang, I would probably be saying, 'looks good, but I don't know the lineage' and have left it at that.   

All that I can say about the forms is that through number seven, they seemed to have a graded level of complexity and/or difficulty as they progressed.  The selection of techniques did not look outlandish, nor did I see any techniques that looked horrendously wrong.  All things considered, the forms look like they _could_ be part of an actual curriculum.  

No idea whose though.  

Daniel


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## Seth T. (Jan 22, 2010)

In Sin Moo Hapkido we do have some sword work, but no forms. My instructor just calls it "hapkido sword" to (I think) differentiate it from Gumdo, because it doesn't really look like or work like Gumdo.

I know this because a fellow student is actually a Gumdo instructor as well, and it gives him fits whenever we do our sword stuff.  

If Bruce Sims were to post here he would have somethign else to say all-together. He includes a lot of sword work in his training and does do forms, but I don't know if it would look like what is shown in those videos.


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## Ozowen (Jan 25, 2010)

Gedday guys 
I'm feeling a tad embarressed about all this discussion. I'm the bloke in the vids being discussed here and at least I didn't cop a serious bagging. 
Although I have a lot of years in martial arts I have a few things against me. One is that I have moved a few times and living in Oz, the distances can be punishing. The upshot being I have trained in Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Karate, Hapkido, Choy Lee Fut (a little), fencing, Arnis, Kendo and some of these more than one system. eg: I have a 1st dan Oh Do Kwan but my 2nd dan is Moo Duk kwan. (also 1st dan Karate and in Hapkido).
There have been several periods where there was no club to train in. I have had three or four private students (I don't charge) but I have no patience for running a club. (My Hapkido master wants me to but it isn't happening).
I have collected patterns as a way of keeping my training up as I am well acquainted with times where there is no club around- kata/ hyung/ tao liu are what I use to keep going.
The sword sets were part of a thing I was doing for my Hapkido master. I was working on a more structured curriculum with more emphasis on fluency and less on rote learning. I am still working on that but the sword stuff was a part of that work. I think it was a failure as it is on youtube. Most of those patterns are exactly as Daniel Sullivan described. They are more drills than hyung. I think of them as "kibon". In fact I probably only know three or four that I would regard as real hyung. I have no idea what any of them are called and feel a little embarressed by this. 
Originally I videoed them so I wouldn't foget them. As it is I have comletely forgotten a Southern Preying Mantis form a fellow Hapkido student taught me about twenty years back and a Choy Lee Fut form (Plum Blossom- I have tried to find it on the web but none of the versions I saw jogged the memory) from the same period. It was forgetting these forms that prompted me to do the vids. Then I decided to upload them because I thought critique would help. My old Hapkido club is now 700km away and I only train there rarely.
I probably should also put a vid up of the basic gum training that our Oh Do Kwan Master Lee taught us, mostly to remind myself but also to get a critique. 

I was grateful to the breakdown of the patterns. To be frank, I have never really done that. I enjoy sword work but it isn't the centre of my training. I do find live blades sharpens the mind and gives real focus, it is also great for fitness but I think I have a long way to go, and almost no chance of getting there. I am a long way "outback" and I'll have to lean on the Moo Duk Kwan club and occasional cross training with my mates at the local Shotokan club and at a local Kung Fu & Naha te Karate club. Sword work isn't a focus at any of these so I doubt I will improve much. 

I hope this has helped the discussion.
These forums look pretty interesting so I reckon I'll stay around.

Ozowen


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## Ozowen (Jan 25, 2010)

BTW
The pattern numbered seven I learned from a good mate from Scotland.It was called Happo Giri but was actually a kata from a longer sequence in his Ju Jitsu school (he was 3rd dan at the time). Each kata finished facing at 90 degrees to the last until the fourth returned you to the front. I only learned that kata. Number 5 was also from Ju Jitsu. In retrospect I rather wish I had learned his Ju Jitsu Preying Mantis kata. It was hugely interesting and I suspect would have been a powerful addition to my regimen. But time was limited. 

Really, the whole numbering is pretty aweful and should best be ignored. I certainly do. I gave up on it years ago.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 25, 2010)

First of all, Ozowen, welcome to MT.

I appreciate you coming on and sharing the background of the form set.  Certainly, I did not feel that you had anything to be embarrassed about in your videos.  You put some things together and filmed them and put them up on Youtube.  Kudos to you for being willing to put yourself out there. 

I would hope that nobody would rag on you here.  It is very easy to look at someone else's Youtube videos and pick them apart.  I often wonder what sort of commentary I would receive if I put up videos of my own practice.  Maybe at some point I will.

Essentially (correct me if I am wrong) these patterns are ones that you put together on your own in collaboration with your HKD instructor and are not directly linked to any specific tradition or style with the exception of forms 5 and 7.

Form four looked very similar to what I have seen in some Haedong Gumdo videos.  Was it HDGD influenced?  One observation: you were more fluid in that one than in the other ones.

Once again, thank you for joining in the discussion.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 25, 2010)

Seth T. said:


> In Sin Moo Hapkido we do have some sword work, but no forms. My instructor just calls it "hapkido sword" to (I think) differentiate it from Gumdo, because it doesn't really look like or work like Gumdo.
> 
> I know this because a fellow student is actually a Gumdo instructor as well, and it gives him fits whenever we do our sword stuff.
> 
> If Bruce Sims were to post here he would have somethign else to say all-together. He includes a lot of sword work in his training and does do forms, but I don't know if it would look like what is shown in those videos.


Bruce does a considerable amount of sword work from what I understand.  Bruce is, as I recall, very meticulous in his research.  I had discussions with him on Kingdomfighter several years back and I found him very insightful.

Daniel


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## Ozowen (Jan 25, 2010)

Thabks Daniel
I didn't make any of these up, I kinda collect patterns. I was trying to put some sort of order to them, but I think the numbers in the youtube set are more like the order I learned them in than anything.
As I said, I should have collected their names as I went.
My hope was to have a useful collection for my instructor to use. The project was one I abandoned years ago although I have appreciated learning sets from people as I went.

I have a few more but they aren't videoed yet. One is the standard Kuk Sool Won sword set. No offense to any Kuk Sool guys, but I really don't care much for it so I don't practise it and probably won't video it. It might be that I don't understand it but I feel like it has a poor relationship between swordwork and footwork.


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## TigerLove (Jan 25, 2010)

It's nice to see how this thread heading in the right direction!

 Anyway, my master have in plan to run Kendo scholl behind Hkd and Tkd -  by the end of this year, but how i'm unpatient about sword stuff and i have some additional time and will, i will practice this forms, or some of them, until that happens.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 26, 2010)

Tigerlove,

Kendo or kumdo (or gumdo or geomdo; the hangul is the same regardless of which Romanization is used)?  

And if kumdo, what style of kumdo?

Daniel


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## TigerLove (Jan 26, 2010)

The word is about Kendo. 

He decided to start Kendo cllases because many people in the club are interested in it, beside Hkd and Tkd. Second, he is 1. dan in Kendo. I don't know is he even allowed to run Kendo classes with that grade, but anyway he can transfer his knowledge to us.
And third, maybe most important, is that his master, which visit us often is some higher dan in Kendo - but i don't remember exactly which one, and he said he will work with us to.

And, i don't know is it proper to place this here, but i'll try..i started to write a blog, dedicated to my thoughts related to martial arts..so i'll be happy if someone visit it, comment, and say to me some opinnions..thanks!

http://student39.wordpress.com/

Sorry on off topic!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 26, 2010)

TigerLove said:


> The word is about Kendo.
> 
> He decided to start Kendo cllases because many people in the club are interested in it, beside Hkd and Tkd. Second, he is 1. dan in Kendo. *I don't know is he even allowed to run Kendo classes with that grade, but anyway he can transfer his knowledge to us.*
> And third, maybe most important, is that his master, which visit us often is some higher dan in Kendo - but i don't remember exactly which one, and he said he will work with us to.



What federation does he hold his first dan through?  

In response to you asking about running a kendo class at that grade: As a general rule, no styles acknowledge an instructor as a head instructor at first dan.  In the All Japan Kendo Federation, one is usually not running their own class until third of fourth dan.  One is not considered a head instructor until at least fifth or sixth.

The fact that his master will be involved is promising.  Certainly, first dan students do assist and/or take portions of the class at their master's discretion, just as in any other art.  And he is an established school owner and instructor with a sword background of some kind, so it is not as if it comes out of nowhere.

I hope that it goes well!

Daniel


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## TigerLove (Jan 26, 2010)

You think same as we! His (and according to that ours to) master is 7. dan at Taekwondo ITF, and 6.dan in Hapkido. Style of Hapkido we practice is actually called Teuk Gong Moo Sool. He's givin' a real good backup to us (right this weekend he's comin' to our place to hold a big seminar), in Tkd and Hkd, so will be the same in Kendo (i can ask for organisation, don't know now). And, my master is 4.dan Taekwondo ITF, and 2. dan Hapkido. 

I see you are a litlle bit interested, so i camed up with this info.


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