# Hapkido falling skills



## mastercole (Apr 15, 2012)

At age 52, i am not really into all the falling drills I experienced in Hapkido years ago. I can still roll and fall well, I still practice them occasionally on a mat, but I don't think it would be healthy for me to do that over and over and over for hours on end. 

So if you can demonstrate that you can fall, roll, etc well enough, how necessary is it to perform a lot of falls and rolls in training, or that an a modification that is not possible in Hapkido?


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## zDom (Apr 16, 2012)

mastercole said:


> At age 52, i am not really into all the falling drills I experienced in Hapkido years ago. I can still roll and fall well, I still practice them occasionally on a mat, but I don't think it would be healthy for me to do that over and over and over for hours on end.
> 
> So if you can demonstrate that you can fall, roll, etc well enough, how necessary is it to perform a lot of falls and rolls in training, or that an a modification that is not possible in Hapkido?



That really depends on the type of hapkido, the school and the instructor &#8212; and fellow students.

Speaking only for Moo Sul Kwan hapkido:

I gather that other schools don't place as much emphasis on throwing as Moo Sul Kwan hapkido. The Musulkwan in Korea was known for its full-circle throwing and Park maintained that focus in establishing his curriculum in the U.S. On a hip throw, we don't let them slide off to the side; the person thrown is to go completely over the hip and land so their feet are straight forward in relation to the thrower. The person is being thrown perpendicularly into the mat, so there really isn't a rollout possible.

The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE. I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person.

It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me.

It takes repetition to get first a familiarity with the correct movements and eventually a mastery of a throw is to have someone who falls well enough to endure those falls without being injured. 

That means great falling technique that is trained to the point of second nature and a good mat. Our "mat" is what some describe as "floating floor" &#8212; it is firm on the surface, but the whole floor moves on force-absorbing supports.






So falling is very, very, VERY important to learning hapkido at MSK.

Falling is also important to getting a deeper understanding of the throw itself.



That said, if you have already studied hapkido for many years and are of advanced age, and you still fall well then you probably don't need to 
hit the mat as often as you did coming up through the ranks, IMO.

Personally, I think some falling is good in that it keeps your insides from being as "sloshy" &#8212; our bodies are constantly remodeling either stronger or weaker. It is good for personal health and well being to be hardy, to be able to endure, rather than being fragile. Falling down happens in life. Better that the body is maintaining a certain baseline than to fall one day and be injured from having grown weaker and more fragile (other than what age does to us &#8212; but we can fend that off to some extent).

So ... hours on end? I don't think that would be necessary anymore. Even coming up through the ranks, we don't fall for HOURS on end &#8212; maybe five or 10 or 15 minutes in class for basic falling training then some additional falls while practicing technique or throwing.

For example, we may be training throws and do 9 fits and one throw. Or three fits and one throw.


Doing basic falling drills a few times per week and actually being thrown maybe five or 10 times should be enough to maintain, I would think.

But you need to listen to your body (I can only hear mine and do my best to listen closely to it).

But somebody coming up through the ranks of MSK hapkido? If they can't fall, how can they participate? How can they pass on the curriculum if they were to reach dan ranks?

In the context of Moo Sul Kwan, I don't think I can with a clean conscience advance someone if they are not learning and training the entire curriculum. If someone was to learn to throw without falling for anyone else, it would become incomplete &#8212; maybe we could come up with some "Hapkido-based Hoshin Sul" but it wouldn't be the same as training in the complete art.


By the way, Mastecole: I realize you probably know most or all of this stuff. I'm just including it for others not familiar with falling/hapkido who might read this thread.


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## Buka (Apr 16, 2012)

Age is always a factor, especially with a lot of hard miles on the old tires. As for doing anything "over and over and over for hours on end" I feel if we did it properly the first time in our lives where we spent hours and hours, days and days etc, it probably stuck with us. I sure hope so, because I'm not about to do some of the things I did in training years ago.


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## puunui (Apr 16, 2012)

zDom said:


> The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE. I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person. It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me.



Not necessarily. If all you want to do is to learn to throw people, then all you need is a partner that is willing to take falls for your. Under my original hapkido teacher, old students would come from the mainland and other places to learn for short periods of time, and during those sessions, I and others would take all of the falls for the visiting student, the logic of my instructor being that this student is here only for a short period of time, and therefore his/her time is best spent learning, not helping us learn by taking falls for us.


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## zDom (Apr 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> Not necessarily. If all you want to do is to learn to throw people, then all you need is a partner that is willing to take falls for your. Under my original hapkido teacher, old students would come from the mainland and other places to learn for short periods of time, and during those sessions, I and others would take all of the falls for the visiting student, the logic of my instructor being that this student is here only for a short period of time, and therefore his/her time is best spent learning, not helping us learn by taking falls for us.



I know I am going to regret this, this being "responding to puunui", but here goes:

Evidently given you rank and experience, you must know a lot about hapkido but I am beginning to wonder if English is a second language for you.

You wrote the above quote responding to: 

"The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE. I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person. It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me."

You can't be responding with "not necessarily" to "The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE" as your comment supports this as you state "If all you want to do is to learn to throw people, then all you need is a partner that is willing to take falls for you" 

Nor can it be responding to "I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person" as as you haven't suggested any equipment.

So the "not necessarily" can only assume refers to my statement that:

"It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me."


On a short-term basis, sure: this can be waived. For what it's worth, for private one-on-one lessons, I do not ask for reciprocity. 

Somewhat in line with your reasoning for visiting students, I figure they are paying a premium for instruction so a one-for-one reciprocity does not seem appropriate to me.

However, in the long term study of Moo Sul Kwan hapkido, there are things that are LEARNED about throwing by FALLING, just as there are things learned about joint manipulation by receiving technique. I feel it deprives the student of a complete understanding of throwing to not learn to fall as well as depriving them of an important self-defense and general well being skill.

Other hapkido systems that do not place such an emphasis on throwing may not agree that it is important.

Having watched that 1960s footage of Ji Han-Jae, it looks as if falling was at least somewhat important to his study of hapkido. I noticed a lot of similarities.


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## puunui (Apr 16, 2012)

zDom said:


> Evidently given you rank and experience, you must know a lot about hapkido but I am beginning to wonder if English is a second language for you.



No it is not. I was born in Hawaii. So were my parents, as well as my father's parents. How about you? Is english a second language for you?



zDom said:


> You wrote the above quote responding to:
> 
> "The only way to really learn to throw people well is to fit (pick them up and set them down) and throw PEOPLE. I am not aware of any training equipment that replicates the feel of throwing a live person. It comes down to reciprocity then: I will fall for you and in exchange, you will fall for me."
> 
> ...



Right, I included the first two sentence so people would understand what the topic was. I (obviously) responded to the last sentence from the part I quoted from you. Reading the above, I think you misunderstood that.




zDom said:


> On a short-term basis, sure: this can be waived. For what it's worth, for private one-on-one lessons, I do not ask for reciprocity. Somewhat in line with your reasoning for visiting students, I figure they are paying a premium for instruction so a one-for-one reciprocity does not seem appropriate to me.



My instructor didn't charge the visiting students. I don't either.



zDom said:


> However, in the long term study of Moo Sul Kwan hapkido, there are things that are LEARNED about throwing by FALLING, just as there are things learned about joint manipulation by receiving technique. I feel it deprives the student of a complete understanding of throwing to not learn to fall as well as depriving them of an important self-defense and general well being skill.
> 
> Other hapkido systems that do not place such an emphasis on throwing may not agree that it is important.



When I first studied Gracie Jiujitsu, Relson took all of the falls for me. When I asked him about it, he said his job was to take the falls, and my job was to learn how to throw. So he would disagree with you about the importance of learning falling in order to learn how to throw. His opinion is that you do not need to know how to fall in order to learn how to throw, in much the same way that you don't need to get shot in order to shoot someone. 



zDom said:


> Having watched that 1960s footage of Ji Han-Jae, it looks as if falling was at least somewhat important to his study of hapkido. I noticed a lot of similarities.



Those were demonstrations, so of course falling is included for the dramatic effect. But at the Daly City dojang, the beginning students did not do techniques to conclusion. There was no falling, no nak bup; GM Ji never taught it. I already knew how to do nak bup, but the other students learned that primarily from Master Kim, who used to visit from Los Angeles and would teach classes every once in a while during his visits. But anyway, apparently GM Ji also disagrees with you about the importance of falling to learning hapkido. at least in the beginning stages.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2012)

I think you need to know how to fall in order to throw, because then you'll know how the other guy is going to potentially save themselves. A good throw will kill the other guy and the uke needs to know how to save themselves. When you get older and the body wears out, then you can skip out on taking falls. This is very common.

That said, the question that comes to my mind is how can I preserve my body so I can take falls when I'm older?


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## zDom (Apr 16, 2012)

OK. I should have known better.

Puuni/Glenn:

Please accept my sincere best wishes for your father in this trying time and I wish you the best of luck in your hapkido training.

We probably have more in common than a third party would think given your mode of "discussing" things.

But whatever our differences or similarities are as far as hapkido, I know this to be true:

There is no way for me to have a productive discussion with you. I don't have to the time to defend and re-explain every sentence I type.

Please extend the courtesy of not replying to any of my posts and I'll extend the same courtesy to you.


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## puunui (Apr 16, 2012)

zDom said:


> We probably have more in common than a third party would think given your mode of "discussing" things.



My mode is to bring up facts. What is your mode? 



zDom said:


> But whatever our differences or similarities are as far as hapkido, I know this to be true:There is no way for me to have a productive discussion with you. I don't have to the time to defend and re-explain every sentence I type.



When I write something, I assume that at least one person out there will disagree. Understanding that makes for more productive discussions because I realize that I will have to defend my position. 



zDom said:


> Please extend the courtesy of not replying to any of my posts and I'll extend the same courtesy to you.



Sorry, can't do that.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 16, 2012)

I have limited grappling experience, a few years of competitive Judo, but I would humbly suggest falling doesn't do anything to help me learn to throw. Falling is of course a crucial skill but I can't grasp a throw by being Uke. I have to see it done and attempt it myself.

The intricacies of a throw were not really taught to me in my Taekwondo experience, by which I mean I learned one throw as a defense to a choke from behind and no set ups at all. I never took a throw in Taekwondo when I was learning this technique. I do now, for my students. The reason for this is again safety-two or three years of competitive Judo has taught me to fall better than I can teach them especially if the thrower has trouble and they don't fall perfectly. Plus I'd rather hurt myself than them.

Because I know it will be asked, of course I teach breakfalls. But good breakfalls don't come from drilling, they come from being thrown in a bunch of different ways and on puzzle mats over concrete is not the time or place for a Taekwondo student, particularly a kid, to be thrown a bunch of different ways


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## zDom (Apr 17, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> ... I would humbly suggest falling doesn't do anything to help me learn to throw. Falling is of course a crucial skill but I can't grasp a throw by being Uke. I have to see it done and attempt it myself.



I didn't mean to imply that a throw should be taught by throwing the person being taught; I agree isn't necessary for someone to get a basic idea of the throw. 

But once learned, falling for a throw on a regular basis provides yet another perspective that can provide a deeper understanding of the throw.



ETinCYQX said:


> ...on puzzle mats over concrete is not the time or place for a Taekwondo student, particularly a kid, to be thrown a bunch of different ways



I am not going to let anyone throw ME on a puzzle mats over a concrete floor &#8212; and I've been falling for 20 years.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 17, 2012)

zDom said:


> I didn't mean to imply that a throw should be taught by throwing the person being taught; I agree isn't necessary for someone to get a basic idea of the throw.
> 
> But once learned, falling for a throw on a regular basis provides yet another perspective that can provide a deeper understanding of the throw.
> 
> ...



Yeah, falling for the throw can provide another perspective but for me it's more how to make sure I get the throw I want in competition than anything else. 

When I say "puzzle mats" I meant the thick ones they use for tkd tournaments, not just the skinny ones. The floor is tiled, but it is suspended and there's a little give. I usually use elbow and knee pads too.


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## dancingalone (Apr 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> When I first studied Gracie Jiujitsu, Relson took all of the falls for me. When I asked him about it, he said his job was to take the falls, and my job was to learn how to throw. So he would disagree with you about the importance of learning falling in order to learn how to throw. His opinion is that you do not need to know how to fall in order to learn how to throw, in much the same way that you don't need to get shot in order to shoot someone.



From my perspective, falling and throwing/pinning are indelibly linked.  You need to feel the technique to understand the differences in variation.  With an outward wrist turn, I can break someone's wrist or I compel him to take to the floor as quickly as possible or I can merely unbalance him and force him to fall that way.  I think it's hard to appreciate the necessary adjustments for each effect without also being intimate with the feeling of each on the receiving side.


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## puunui (Apr 17, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> From my perspective, falling and throwing/pinning are indelibly linked.  You need to feel the technique to understand the differences in variation.  With an outward wrist turn, I can break someone's wrist or I compel him to take to the floor as quickly as possible or I can merely unbalance him and force him to fall that way.  I think it's hard to appreciate the necessary adjustments for each effect without also being intimate with the feeling of each on the receiving side.



At the same time, I think there is benefit from practicing techniques on people that do not know how to fall and are not readily inclined to breakfall for you and instead resist with all their might your throw. I think that is more realistic than practicing with a partner that is ready and willing to fall for you, because that is how it will be in a actual situation. Personally, I am not all that into doing wrist manipulation throws especially and would rather go for the lock than the throw.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> At the same time, I think there is benefit from practicing techniques on people that do not know how to fall and are not readily inclined to breakfall for you and instead resist with all their might your throw. I think that is more realistic than practicing with a partner that is ready and willing to fall for you, because that is how it will be in a actual situation.



That's what white belts are for...LOL!


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## puunui (Apr 17, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> That's what white belts are for...LOL!



Yeah, but generally you can only practice white belt level techniques with white belts. White belts start quitting if you want to use them as a crash test dummy all the time.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 17, 2012)

Yeah, I know, I'm kidding, but that said. It's really hard to practice realistically against someone who doesn't know how to fall, because of the risk of injury. Judo style randori is about as close as you can get IMO.


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## puunui (Apr 17, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Yeah, I know, I'm kidding, but that said. It's really hard to practice realistically against someone who doesn't know how to fall, because of the risk of injury. Judo style randori is about as close as you can get IMO.



That's why I favor joint locking rather than throwing. You throw someone who doesn't know how to fall, and if they hit their head, they could end up dead, or worse paralyzed with brain damage.


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> That's why I favor joint locking rather than throwing. You throw someone who doesn't know how to fall, and if they hit their head, they could end up dead, or worse paralyzed with brain damage.



That is a serious concern.


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## puunui (Apr 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> That is a serious concern.



I believe so. I also think that there comes a point when training in hapkido where you start to expect the opponent to flip over when you do your technique. Then, when the real situation comes up, the technique doesn't go like how you expect. It's not easy to flip someone over by twisting their wrist, people will do all sorts of stuff to avoid that from happening. Not so if you train in a dojang when students are conditioned to go with it and flip when their partner is doing the technique "correctly".


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## Makalakumu (Apr 18, 2012)

That's a good point. I often feel that we train ourselves to expect responses that are unnatural because and untrained person will not react the same way as a trained person. Sometimes, it's good to anticipate how a regular person will react.


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## shesulsa (Apr 18, 2012)

I don't think you have to fall endlessly to be effective nor actively participate in a falling art, especially a joint-locking art.

The whole reason we fall or flip is to avoid damage to the attacked joint.  IF the student performing the technique is skilled in control, it is simple to lock out the joint or perform the mechanics of the hyper-extention or break without demanding the recipient leap, flip or fall.  Of course, the emphasis would HAVE to be on the trust gained from the goal of complete control.  This involves holding back on attacks.

I do hope you are able to safely, gradually increase your falling skills, mastercole, both through slightly increased practice (not so much in the time per training session, but more training sessions dedicated to safe falling) and through gradually and carefully reducing your padding / gauge of mat.

It stands to reason that if one can even reduce the likelihood of a complex fracture to that of a hairline or simple fracture, even this improvement is desirable over the potential complications of the alternative.


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## puunui (Apr 18, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> The whole reason we fall or flip is to avoid damage to the attacked joint.  IF the student performing the technique is skilled in control, it is simple to lock out the joint or perform the mechanics of the hyper-extention or break without demanding the recipient leap, flip or fall.  Of course, the emphasis would HAVE to be on the trust gained from the goal of complete control.  This involves holding back on attacks.



Holding back, or learning control. I don't think it is ever ok to injure your training partner, especially intentionally. We are here to learn, not show how much we can hurt people if we want to.


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## shesulsa (Apr 18, 2012)

puunui said:


> Holding back, or learning control. I don't think it is ever ok to injure your training partner, especially intentionally. We are here to learn, not show how much we can hurt people if we want to.



It is learning control. Some people barely understand "holding back" let alone learning control. Trying to illustrate what to some may be obvious. :asian:


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## zDom (Apr 19, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I don't think you have to fall endlessly to be effective nor actively participate in a falling art, especially a joint-locking art.
> 
> The whole reason we fall or flip is to avoid damage to the attacked joint.  IF the student performing the technique is skilled in control, it is simple to lock out the joint or perform the mechanics of the hyper-extention or break without demanding the recipient leap, flip or fall.  Of course, the emphasis would HAVE to be on the trust gained from the goal of complete control.  This involves holding back on attacks.
> 
> ...





One thing I have noticed pretty much across the board is that most hapkido styles have wrist breaking techniques in their curriculum in which the person receiving the technique uses a fall to unwind the attacked joint.

We have a couple in our curriculum but we make clear to students that they are not actually throws.

One reason is that it allows the person doing the technique to get a large range of motion in the direction of attacking the joint. But I wonder if those setting hapkido curriculums also include some to provide their students with an option for a counter should they ever find themselves in imminent danger of joint damage from an attackers joint manipulation. Just a thought.


If an art is all joint lock, I don't see really any reason to learn falling, other than for acquiring a general well being skill.

In Moo Sul Kwan hapkido, we use enough full circle judo-type throws that we have to have the falling skills to help our fellow students get enough reps in their throwing to be proficient.

What I don't understand is your advice to reduce the padding/gauge of the mat. I don't feel that conditioning to fall on hard surfaces has any benefit.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 19, 2012)

I didn't fall, I attacked the floor.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 19, 2012)

Whilst I see the reason in reducung the padding, from experience, I can tell you that it only leads to higher rates of injury.


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## shesulsa (Apr 19, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Whilst I see the reason in reducung the padding, from experience, I can tell you that it only leads to higher rates of injury.



It certainly can and it reveals limitations in falling skill.  You don't fall in sand the same way you fall in grass or on concrete.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> You don't fall in sand the same way you fall in grass or on concrete.



You don't?


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## WaterGal (Jul 27, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Because I know it will be asked, of course I teach breakfalls. But good breakfalls don't come from drilling, they come from being thrown in a bunch of different ways and on puzzle mats over concrete is not the time or place for a Taekwondo student, particularly a kid, to be thrown a bunch of different ways



Yeah, drilling alone isn't enough to be really skilled at falling.  Doing it from a throw teaches you to do it in all sorts of situations.  But I think drilling Nak Bup is important in developing a foundation so you can go on to do that safely. And yeah, you definitely should do that on a big soft mat at first!   You're totally right about that.  Beginners shouldn't be falling just on the puzzle mats.  More advanced students, sure.  I do it all the time. But a beginner could get hurt that way.  

(GM says growing up in Korea they did it on a wood floor, and in the army he had to do it on rocks, but I'm definitely not that hard core, lol.)


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## shinka (Aug 30, 2012)

The problem with falling technic is...as we get older they hurt more but if you don't practice them enough they hurt even harder.
In Hoshinkido, we fall a lot so if we don't train enough in falling...all the rest will be terrible.

So, can you do less I think so.....But still need to do some to keep your body in good shape for it.


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## zDom (Sep 4, 2012)

I turned 45 this year and falling does not hurt on our mats.


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## bushido (Nov 16, 2012)

Judoka develop what the Jap call "round body"
In NA, we prefere the "V" shaped body of a body builder.

Repetative throwing will thicken the trunk...no way around it...and I hate the look of thick obliqes, lol  But it is the curse 

If you want to throw, you stand in line just like everyone else, and you do your break falls...

I am 50, I still do my share of falls...
does it hurt the next day...'ell yes!  Do I let the ol' lady or any one else see it!  'ell no, LOL
Crap...same goes for joint breaks or reaps
It all hurts...always has.  You suck it up.  Admit it to yourself, deny it to any one else 

Adversity is not about what others think of you...it is a measure of your own fortitude 

In the end, it doesn't matter what any one says...you live with yourself...


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## firstpe315 (Mar 4, 2013)

Some interesting take on this debate.  All good opinions.

One can argue the theory that one must fall to learn how to throw properly...but what I do know after decades of Hapkido is that to learn how to FALL, you have to be THROWN...


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## Doomx2001 (Mar 8, 2013)

When it comes to falling skills this is my take on it:  First,  breakfalls shouldn't hurt. If they hurt the person either has a prior  injury usually with their back or they are not doing them right. Most  people that I've seen do breakfalls in Hapkido don't do them right. It  comes across as more acrobatic than battlefield skills. The breakfalls  that we do reguardless of style, in even in martial arts in general,  were made to be done outdoors. Alot of people forget that or neglect  that all together. When a person gets into a fight, they are not on the  cushy mats of the Dojo. They are on grass, concrete, gravel, and wood.  And these surfaces might be wet or dry. 

I believe all breakfalls  should be practiced outside as well as inside. Also, a good way to  check to see if your doing your breakfalls correctly is that they should  be really quite. You shouldn't make much noise when you do your  breakfalls, whether that is a forward roll or a side breakfall. If your  making alot of noise, then that is evidence that your bascially taking a  'bump' which is a pro-wrestling term for intentionally allowing  yourself to be hurt in the most spectacular way to please the crowd. We  aren't supposed to take 'bumps' were supposed to prevent injury when we  come in contact with the ground, hence learning breakfalls. 

Also, another gauge to check if your doing them right, is they shouldn't hurt. If they hurt then your not doing them right. 
Again,  every should be able and should practice their breakfalls in their  front/back yard. I am not a fan of acrobatic breakfalls as that creates a  false sense of security on the part of the defender when they 'throw'  someone that makes them believe that is how the person on the street  will be have when the attempt a throw. Also, acrobatic breakfalls I  believe take a toll on the body. 


That is my two or three cents.


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## Doomx2001 (Mar 8, 2013)

I also recommend people try some good back stretches or Yoga (after talking to a doctor) to limber up a injured aching back before doing breakfalls.


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## zDom (Mar 8, 2013)

Doomx2001 said:


> When it comes to falling skills this is my take on it:  First,  breakfalls shouldn't hurt. If they hurt the person either has a prior  injury usually with their back or they are not doing them right. Most  people that I've seen do breakfalls in Hapkido don't do them right. It  comes across as more acrobatic than battlefield skills. The breakfalls  that we do reguardless of style, in even in martial arts in general,  were made to be done outdoors. Alot of people forget that or neglect  that all together. When a person gets into a fight, they are not on the  cushy mats of the Dojo. They are on grass, concrete, gravel, and wood.  And these surfaces might be wet or dry.
> 
> I believe all breakfalls  should be practiced outside as well as inside. Also, a good way to  check to see if your doing your breakfalls correctly is that they should  be really quite. You shouldn't make much noise when you do your  breakfalls, whether that is a forward roll or a side breakfall. If your  making alot of noise, then that is evidence that your bascially taking a  'bump' which is a pro-wrestling term for intentionally allowing  yourself to be hurt in the most spectacular way to please the crowd. We  aren't supposed to take 'bumps' were supposed to prevent injury when we  come in contact with the ground, hence learning breakfalls.
> 
> ...




I agree that breakfalls shouldn't hurt.

Ours aren't acrobatic, they are practical. They enable us to be thrown many times during a training session with no ill effects.

And breakfalling should also keep us from injury should we ever have to fall off the mat, or at least reduce the injury depending on how hard the fall and how hard the surface.

I DISAGREE that they should be quiet. When we hit the mat, the bigger the boom the better. The boom comes from us striking the ground with body parts that are better able to stand the impact (arms, legs) than more vulnerable parts. The "drumroll" sound is usually concurrent with more painful falls. Silent falling is magic. I don't know any magic.

I think anyone practicing a throwing art at any time would have loved to have our falling mats available. I think they did the best they could with what was available, historically.

If you are rolling out of the fall, that's great: but very many falls you are coming into the ground perpendicularly which means a rollout is not possible.


I have no false sense of security about how a fall will feel outside, nor do I have any desire to go out and seek that experience on purpose.

I've fallen by accident after slipping on ice &#8212; pretty much like the results of a major outer reaping throw. And I got up and went to work none the worse for the wear except for a slightly bruised hip.


And we know that people we throw who aren't trained will land in some spectacular, random, and very likely painful and injurious, manner if we throw them.


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## Doomx2001 (Mar 12, 2013)

Sorry it took me so long to reply even though no one was asking for one. I've been busy here as of late. 
Anyway,  the point I was trying to get across about quiet breakfalls is mainly  directed toward the Forward Roll and Backward Roll (and to a slight  degree a Side Breakfall). The quieter those rolls/breakfalls are, the  more painless the rolls become. Forward rolls and Backward rolls should  be smooth, quiet, and fluid. 
Now, other breakfalls on the other hand  is a different story as your attacker or the enviroment effects how you  fall to a degree. So they may tend to be more noiser.
Another quick  note about forward rolls and backward rolls is that they are not just  made for 'roll outs' from being thrown. They are also made for evasion  as way to quickly evade a sudden charge. They are made as way to get  back on your feet quick after tripping or being pushed by your attacker.  And, as a method to recover a weapon or something of value on the  ground from your attacker before he has a chance to get it.

On  the point about practicing breakfalls outside, it is for me, the most  important thing to get across with this whole debate. Because it gets to  the core of what Hapkido is about: Self-Defense. 
Since the  inception of martial arts, there have more than likely been different  soft surface materials that warriors have trained on for practice. But  the majority of training was done outside for most warriors. Breakfalls  are not a modern invention, they are several hundreds of years old. They  were designed for the battlefield so as to prevent injury and promote  quick recovery on ones feet to continue fighting. 

Modern  Dojo/Dojang conditioning creates a mental mindset where people come to  train on soft cushy mats, go through the motions, say all the Dojo  motto's, do all their bows, and go home. But, that is the problem. The  majority of martial art students, leave the bulk of what they learned in  the dojo. It is a subconcious conditioning where they brain associates a  particular enviroment for one thing but not another. An example would  be High School. People go to school to learn, and when they get out,  they get jobs or do whatever. For most of these graduates or drop outs,  that is the end of academic learning. Most people don't take it upon  themselves to educate themselves further on their own accord post High  School. Its like a switch has went off in their head. Now they are in  worker ant mode. They are so used to people coming to them to present  them with a education that their brain on a subconscious level decides  that is how learning is done. Presented, not acquired. 

Anyway,  the point is, if people always train in the dojo that creates the same  mentality for the majority of students. No one is ever thinking of how  to deal with a fighting situation in the park, at Mcdonalds, at school,  and at work these days when training inside the 'safety' of the dojo.  They assume these life saving skills will just 'kick in' when a bad  situation happens outside the dojo. But it doesn't work like that. Not  for majority of people I've come across. 

By training outside, we  are helping people to see and connect what they are learning in  different enviroments. So that what they are learning can be done  anywhere and not just in the movies. 
Also, people get so comfortable  with the idea of 'mats' that they forget they can just as easy get a  broke neck on a soft cushy mat as they would training on the ground. 
And  really, there is very little difference between training on the ground  and on mats in the dojo when it comes to the cushioned landing ( I can  say this from first hand experience). If a person learns to breakfall  correctly, training on grass will be no problem, but now if they are  doing breakfalls incorrectly, they will feel it! For we have to remember  breakfalls were made for the battlefield (hard ground, battle ships,  grassy areas, the forest, forts, castles....etc). 

Without the  experience of doing breakfalls/training outside, people build a  unrealistic fear of the ground for no reason. Also training outside is a  great way to break the montony of training indoors. Its also a good  opportunity for everyone to get together after training to have a  barbcue, go hiking, check out the wildlife....etc. 

I am a big  advocate of outdoor training as it connects mentally what your learning  in the dojo with 'reality'. The outside, the rest of the world. 
Because  it takes martial arts from being this indoor activity to something  real, something that you can take with you everywhere. Its not just  something only Koreans can do. 

Anyway, speaking of Koreans, here  is a good video on some outdoor training as done in Korea. Some things  were over sensationalized for the video, but if you notice, they  apparently have no fear of ground, nor do they seem to suffer any  negative effects thereof.


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## zDom (Mar 14, 2013)

Yep that is some great video footage (I see a lot of similarities in style and specific techniques to the Moo Sul Kwan hapkido I train in).


And you make some valid points.


But that footage is a demonstration &#8212; and a great one at that. They aren't doing 50, 60, 100 falls in a row in that demo.


And remember that: to throw well, you must get repetition. Thousands of reps just like any technique.


For example: 







A good mat is a good tool that, when combined with good falling skills, ensures your partner can fall for those repetitions without injuries.


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## Doomx2001 (Mar 16, 2013)

I just 'liked' your video, and subscribed to your channel. 
I really like the drill/testing you got going on there. Thank you for sharing. 
I will concede that you have many great points as well sir. 
Hapki !


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