# Chi Nas/Qinna instructionals!!



## bigfootsquatch (Dec 18, 2007)

http://www.56.com/u98/v_MTg2MDYzNjc.html

http://www.56.com/u72/v_MjA0OTE0Nzc.html

http://www.56.com/u52/v_MjA0OTE0NTc.html

There may be a few more on there, but those are different videos from the Chin Na in Depth series by Yang Jwing Ming, enjoy!


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## Steel Tiger (Dec 18, 2007)

The Chin Na in Depth series is available at Amazon as well.  Quite a reasonable price too.


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## bigfootsquatch (Dec 18, 2007)

OH CRAP, I didnt even think about them being copyrighted! Thanks Steel Tiger, I'm going to get those links removed. Thanks for the heads up!


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## xiongnu_lohon (Dec 27, 2007)

I think the best material on qin na is this book by Zhao Da Yuan & Tim Cartmell. There are also companion DVDs available. I love Yang Jwing-Ming but the Cartmell stuff breaks down the mechanics behind all qin na and it also shows over 30 entries to set up qin na techniques. 

I recommend Tim Cartmell's material because it will give you the theory & background to figure out how to do qin na in any style.


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 27, 2007)

A book called Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na is really good.  Written by Dr. Dwang Ming Jing. It gives full details and pictures of how to do each technique. It also gives the counter for it or how to block the technique. Really good book with lots of information.


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## clfsean (Dec 27, 2007)

Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA. That's problem #1. People say qinna & think "oooh... CMA". Locking can be found from almost every culture with a martial tradition. Put a different name on it & there you go. Qinna but not... since it's a different language.

People think "grab & lock" & it's qinna. That's problem #2. You grab me without taking my attention off of it is only going to get you hit, kicked or worse since you've taken one or both of your hands & occupied them with grabbing silliness. Tim Cartmell shows it with entries apparently. I've not seen it but I'm willing to bet he's shown hitting people or other things to move their attention away from the lock. I'll have to look into this book.

Dr Yang shows a lot of good stuff in his books, but they're only books. That's problem #3. They don't adequately show body positioning, leverage, angles & such. They're great for reference if you already know what he's doing or something similar in technique & theory. The best way to learn qinna ... learn a TCMA.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 27, 2007)

these clips are simply awesome.  thanks for posting.


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## xiongnu_lohon (Dec 27, 2007)

clfsean said:


> Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA. That's problem #1. People say qinna & think "oooh... CMA". Locking can be found from almost every culture with a martial tradition. Put a different name on it & there you go. Qinna but not... since it's a different language.
> 
> People think "grab & lock" & it's qinna. That's problem #2. You grab me without taking my attention off of it is only going to get you hit, kicked or worse since you've taken one or both of your hands & occupied them with grabbing silliness. Tim Cartmell shows it with entries apparently. I've not seen it but I'm willing to bet he's shown hitting people or other things to move their attention away from the lock. I'll have to look into this book.
> 
> Dr Yang shows a lot of good stuff in his books, but they're only books. That's problem #3. They don't adequately show body positioning, leverage, angles & such. They're great for reference if you already know what he's doing or something similar in technique & theory. The best way to learn qinna ... learn a TCMA.



It's hard to describe what makes the Cartmell book unique. The "entrances" I mentioned aren't about hitting a person or something like that. It's like a catalog of all the different wrapping, coiling, grabbing motions that lead into a joint lock. The "entrances" are just all the things you do to leead into a joint lock. Then he gets into the basic principles of joint locking(fulcrums, 1st class levers, 2nd class levers etc.) and he also gives you a list of best-practices' for joint-locking such as "lock above, seperate below" etc. 

Obviously other styles have joint-locking techniques. This thread is about qin na, not aikido or ju-jitsu. The Cartmell book will help anyone in cma understand everything about joint-locking. It's just a set of techniques broken down. It's really in-depth and a useful reference for people in cma. As to the tactical application of such a move in a san da(sport) match or in a nhb fight or whatever that's beyond the scope of the book. I hope that helps. 

If you're in cma you need to know about qin na - and this book will help you do that in a way no other book can. I can't recommend the book enough. As usual Cartmell does an excellent job.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 27, 2007)

clfsean said:


> Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA. That's problem #1. People say qinna & think "oooh... CMA". Locking can be found from almost every culture with a martial tradition. Put a different name on it & there you go. Qinna but not... since it's a different language.
> 
> People think "grab & lock" & it's qinna. That's problem #2. You grab me without taking my attention off of it is only going to get you hit, kicked or worse since you've taken one or both of your hands & occupied them with grabbing silliness. Tim Cartmell shows it with entries apparently. I've not seen it but I'm willing to bet he's shown hitting people or other things to move their attention away from the lock. I'll have to look into this book.
> 
> Dr Yang shows a lot of good stuff in his books, but they're only books. That's problem #3. They don't adequately show body positioning, leverage, angles & such. They're great for reference if you already know what he's doing or something similar in technique & theory. The best way to learn qinna ... learn a TCMA.


 
Agreed, kinda.

Absolutely right that you need to somehow not give away what you are going to do in Qinna and in most cases you need to distract the person you are going to lock. I have only come across one person that did not do this and was successful every time and that is my Taiji sifu. But what he is doing is being very patient and waiting for you to put something where it should not be and BANG you are locked. I have, for the most part, been able to tell when someone was going to try to use Qinna and in many cases I could counter (not all). I did push hands with Dr Yang and although I knew he was going for a lock I could not counter. My sifu I cannot tell I am just all of a sudden locked. My Sanda sifu is much like Dr Yang, I can tell but I can't counter and if I do counter he changes to Shuaijiao or just plane kicking and punching, but I can tell when he is going for a lock. When I asked my Taiji sifu why I can't tell when he is going to use Qinna his answer was "You lock yourself"

But then my Taiji sifu has been training taiji and only taiji for over 50 years


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## Scott McElroy (Jan 10, 2008)

Ancient Qinna practitioners did something much different than most do today! This my friends is extreme iron claw hand and wrist conditioning. This is a method of the TCMA that is becoming lost today. If your hands and body are properly conditioned you will be able to utilize the art as it was intended. If not you will get yourself hurt or killed if you try to use a technique on someone that was intended for use from a fully conditioned practitioner. When I'm talking extreme hand and body conditioning, I'm talking about hands and wrists that can bend and break steel wrenches, twist up horseshoes and roll frying pans into tube shapes. In other words you would have hands and wrists that could easily snap through bones, tear through muscle and separate tendons!! This conditioning is not a pipe dream nor is any part of it fake parlor tricks.
If you want to learn more about it go to my website and check it out.

All the best,
Scott McElroy
Iron Claw Master Practitioner
www.ironclawtraining.com


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 10, 2008)

Despite being a shameless plug, thanks for the post! I'll be checking it out!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 10, 2008)

Hey Scott maybe you could start another thread regarding your training techniques?

As to this thread let's return to the origional topic!


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## kaizasosei (Jan 10, 2008)

the coolest thing of all is that i got the book 'shaolin chin na-instructors manual' for christmas.  on the site, along the the three clips posted above, by entering yang jwing ming on the search function, there were a few more clips including the entire over hour long video turned digital clip that goes along with the book. 

the clip was invaluable.  there is much more new stuff than i thought. i nevertheless, studied every video clip, documenting the entire video by transcribing it to paper.       and i have confirmed i can still understand the moves with only the written descriptions that i made. although the clips are all still viewable.

great stuff.  - thanks again for the link.  that was the greatest thing of all, without which my present wouldnt have meant as much.  the video is very good showing, slow,regular and closeup shots.

j


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## kaizasosei (Jan 10, 2008)

sorry forgot to mention the video clip is called 'shaolin chin na'.  and i think the other 3-6 clips are various segments of another chin na specialized dvd.

j


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 10, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA. That's problem #1. People say qinna & think "oooh... CMA". Locking can be found from almost every culture with a martial tradition. Put a different name on it & there you go. Qinna but not... since it's a different language.



I don't agree. It's like saying that Ninjutsu is not exclusive to JMAs. It's ludicrous. Obviously, the use of stealth, poisons, or espionage is not exclusive to JMAs, but the systems and cataloged methods within "Ninjutsu" is singular. Chin Na methods are pretty unique, when I compare it to the JJJ that I've done over the years.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 10, 2008)

the techniques are excellent.  in many examples, the techniques are so deceptive, i think that there is often no need for any striking.  
of course against difficult situations or opponents, some moves could be more difficult.  however, the moves work.   some work easier some are difficult but the moves work.  
this applies also to other good teachings too. not just cma.  there are always things to learn everywhere.  
even in china, there are probably several schools of chin na.  each person will have their own understanding too.
however, i have to say that it is nice that there is no striking included, because all i wanted to see is exactly all those locks and the principles that make them work.  for this, one needs to watch the clips really closely if necessary several times..



j


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 10, 2008)

bigfootsquatch said:


> Chin Na in Depth series by Yang Jwing Ming, enjoy!



I have these, they're excellent.


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## clfsean (Jan 11, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> I don't agree. It's like saying that Ninjutsu is not exclusive to JMAs. It's ludicrous. Obviously, the use of stealth, poisons, or espionage is not exclusive to JMAs, but the systems and cataloged methods within "Ninjutsu" is singular. Chin Na methods are pretty unique, when I compare it to the JJJ that I've done over the years.


 
Well it's pretty ludicruous to draw that conclusion without knowing what I'm drawing my conclusions from, which is 26+ years in the MA, 4 of which were in the Bujinkan (BTW) and 1 year in Aikido. The last 10 have been in CMA.

And Ninjutsu is exclusive to JMA... because of the name, organization of techniques, skills, etc... 

The techniques themself though aren't limited to JMA or Ninpo exclusively. I've done plenty of of locking, grabbing, throwing, etc... that I did in Ninpo and Aikido in CMA. The ideas might've been a little different, techniques applied a little more "this way" than "that way", but the result, mechanics, etc... were the same, especially the end result of the opponent immobilized & in pain.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 11, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Well it's pretty ludicruous to draw that conclusion without knowing what I'm drawing my conclusions from, which is 26+ years in the MA, 4 of which were in the Bujinkan (BTW) and 1 year in Aikido. The last 10 have been in CMA.
> 
> And Ninjutsu is exclusive to JMA... because of the name, organization of techniques, skills, etc...
> 
> The techniques themself though aren't limited to JMA or Ninpo exclusively. I've done plenty of of locking, grabbing, throwing, etc... that I did in Ninpo and Aikido in CMA. The ideas might've been a little different, techniques applied a little more "this way" than "that way", but the result, mechanics, etc... were the same, especially the end result of the opponent immobilized & in pain.



Yes, yes, yes. There are grappling arts everywhere that result in pain for the "grappled". However, it IS the little differences that make these arts unique. There are Chin Na methods that I've never seen in JJJ or Bujinkan or  any other grappling art that I've spent time with. Even the Small Circle Jujutsu that I've done didn't have the extensive coverage of finger manipulation.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 11, 2008)

Qinna is well.... Qinna :EG:

Everything else is joint locking :uhyeah:

Qinna by definition is "*joint locking*" and "*muscle and tendon tearing*", it is not pretty and it is incredibly painful to train, as is just about any other style that uses a similar joint locking system. 

But in CMA Qinna can be just that Qinna and that is what you train and all you train...Qinna.

Or it can be part of another CMA style and just about every CMA style has Qinna in it to varying degrees, some more than others. Same goes for 
Shuaijiao it is an art all to itself and it is also to in every other CMA to varying degrees. 

Qinna is not Judo, Jujitsu, MMA, BJJ, Kempo, Taiji, Wing Chun, Bujinkan, TKD or JKD. They all may have something form Qinna in them but they are not Qinna. There is a WHOLE hand strengthening training that goes along with Qinna that I HIGHLY doubt most of us (including me) do. 

As for Dr Yang's books, I liked them.


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## clfsean (Jan 11, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Yes, yes, yes. There are grappling arts everywhere that result in pain for the "grappled". However, it IS the little differences that make these arts unique. There are Chin Na methods that I've never seen in JJJ or Bujinkan or any other grappling art that I've spent time with. Even the Small Circle Jujutsu that I've done didn't have the extensive coverage of finger manipulation.


 

Well I can't help the shortcomings you've run across or experienced in your training.

What I can say from first hand experience with chin na and with ju-jutsu is the method may be different, the technique unique or specific to "that" flavor of the day you're doing, but the ultimate lock, destruction, manipulation, pressure point, throw, drop, hyper extension, etc... isn't.


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## theletch1 (Jan 11, 2008)

Joint locking requires a certain subtlety to accomplish.  It's not a direct frontal assault that gets you into the lock.  It's much the same when dealing with people in conversation.  Your point is often much better interpreted when couched less abruptly.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 11, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Well I can't help the shortcomings you've run across or experienced in your training.
> 
> What I can say from first hand experience with chin na and with ju-jutsu is the method may be different, the technique unique or specific to "that" flavor of the day you're doing, but the ultimate lock, destruction, manipulation, pressure point, throw, drop, hyper extension, etc... isn't.



Shortcomings. Okay.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 11, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Qinna is well.... Qinna :EG:
> 
> Everything else is joint locking :uhyeah:
> 
> ...



Yes, you are correct. Others are wrong.


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## clfsean (Jan 11, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Joint locking requires a certain subtlety to accomplish. It's not a direct frontal assault that gets you into the lock.


 
IME the frontal assault allows for the locking to occur since the target isn't paying attention to what you're doing to the limb. 



theletch1 said:


> It's much the same when dealing with people in conversation. Your point is often much better interpreted when couched less abruptly.


 
Maybe but I've never been one to mince words or go for gentle. I speak plain & bunt. Less chance for misinterpretation of topic, save meaning/intent of dialog. But I understand what you're saying.


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## clfsean (Jan 11, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Yes, you are correct. Others are wrong.


 
Since you can be expert enough to call him correct & "others" not... maybe you'd care to expound on your strict CMA training??


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 11, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Since you can be expert enough to call him correct & "others" not... maybe you'd care to expound on your strict CMA training??



Real experts in Chin Na, published, recognized, and respected say the same as Xue Sheng. My experience is limited to Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's system and some study of Tim Cartmell's materials, and I compare it to a decade of Bujinkan, 4 years of Danzan Ryu and Small Circle Jujutsu, frequent training with a friend & Daito-ryu Sandan over the last 6 months I spent in Japan, and the Aikido from a friend's family art here in the Victorville area. Oh, and the grappling from my current Silat training.

You are an anonymous voice here that seems to disagree with the rest of the established Chin Na authorities. 

You can go right ahead and believe what you like, of course. It's a free country.

Of course, it doesn't add to your credibility when you say...


> Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA.


A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow...


> Ninjutsu is exclusive to JMA... because of the name, organization of techniques, skills, etc...


Obvious pedestrian contradiction.


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## Taijiman (Jan 12, 2008)

Chin na isn't a formalized grappling system, though it can be and is.  Of course it's a different system depending on who's teaching it   Still, it's just language for a certain type of technique.  You show a teacher who only understands Chinese one of these types of techniques regardless of it's name in its native tongue, and it's still chin na.  It's not that hard to figure out.  Not sure what everyone's arguing about, lol.


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## Taijiman (Jan 12, 2008)

"A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow..."

Just like "joint locking" isn't exclusively British just because you say it in English and might have learned it in the UK from an Englishman


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## clfsean (Jan 12, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Real experts in Chin Na, published, recognized, and respected say the same as Xue Sheng. My experience is limited to Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's system and some study of Tim Cartmell's materials, and I compare it to a decade of Bujinkan, 4 years of Danzan Ryu and Small Circle Jujutsu, frequent training with a friend & Daito-ryu Sandan over the last 6 months I spent in Japan, and the Aikido from a friend's family art here in the Victorville area. Oh, and the grappling from my current Silat training.


 
Ok... so you have non-CMA training. Plenty of it, but exactly if I'm not wrong again ... 0 time hands on with a CMA style, in a CMA school, with a CMA teacher, performing CMA techniques. That about sums it up, right?



Doc_Jude said:


> You are an anonymous voice here that seems to disagree with the rest of the established Chin Na authorities.


 
I'm not anonymous. My info is posted here. Yours appears to be lacking in contact & info materials. 



Doc_Jude said:


> You can go right ahead and believe what you like, of course. It's a free country.


 
I do. I also practice CMA everyday, which happens to include CMA grappling/locking/throwing/pressure controls/destructions/etc... 



Doc_Jude said:


> Of course, it doesn't add to your credibility when you say...


 
My credibility isn't my worry. My worry right now is somebody who doesn't practice any CMA spouting off about what's correct or not, found or not or anything like that since there's no point of reference to shoot from. 

At least I have the JMA background in ju-jutsu & control techniques to compare to CMA and be able to go ... "Ok ... in JMA I did 'X' like this & in CMA I do 'X' like this". You don't



Doc_Jude said:


> A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow...


 
I didn't say a grappling system. I said the techniques. I said principles. You're not going to find qinna in judo. You'll find shuai jiao in judo. You're not going to find qinna in FMA. You're going to find similar ideas & principles done with a FMA mindset & skill set. 



Doc_Jude said:


> Obvious pedestrian contradiction.


 
Truth... 2x4... is there a connection???


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 12, 2008)

Taijiman said:


> "A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow..."
> 
> Just like "joint locking" isn't exclusively British just because you say it in English and might have learned it in the UK from an Englishman



Like Welsh Wrestling?


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 12, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Ok... so you have non-CMA training. Plenty of it, but exactly if I'm not wrong again ... 0 time hands on with a CMA style, in a CMA school, with a CMA teacher, performing CMA techniques. That about sums it up, right?


 Actually, I've done a bit of San Soo and Kuntao, which I can only assume contains "qinna" since both are Chinese and both have grappling techniques, though not as technical or sophisticated as the Chin Na of. Obviously the CMA styles that Dr. Yang represents contain more comprehensive systems of Chin Na.



> I'm not anonymous. My info is posted here. Yours appears to be lacking in contact & info materials.


You have a name, real or imagined, a claim to train in a single art while being totally unranked after years of "everyday" training, and a website link that goes nowhere. No, you don't have any contact info. 



> I do. I also practice CMA everyday, which happens to include CMA grappling/locking/throwing/pressure controls/destructions/etc...


Really? Where, & with whom? Your profile & link provide no info.



> My credibility isn't my worry. My worry right now is somebody who doesn't practice any CMA spouting off about what's correct or not, found or not or anything like that since there's no point of reference to shoot from.


Where did you get the idea that I don't practice CMA? CMAs make up a large portion of my current art (Taijiquan/Kuntao/KungFu SanSoo) and I bring other sources of Chin Na into my training (Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, Tim Cartmell, Al Arsenault).



> At least I have the JMA background in ju-jutsu & control techniques to compare to CMA and be able to go ... "Ok ... in JMA I did 'X' like this & in CMA I do 'X' like this". You don't


Really... with whom did you train in the Bujinkan? 



> I didn't say a grappling system. I said the techniques. I said principles. You're not going to find qinna in judo. You'll find shuai jiao in judo.


No qinna in judo??? You should do some more judo.



> You're not going to find qinna in FMA. You're going to find similar ideas & principles done with a FMA mindset & skill set.


Are you sure? How many FMAs have you trained in?


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## pete (Jan 12, 2008)

wow, i got a little excited when i saw the topic header, but disappointed to read this conversation. how 'bout...

we talk about :
1. how chin na may differ from joint locking found in arts outside chinese
2. differences between muscle/bone separation from tendon twisting/tearing
3. strategies for locking to submit vs. locking to throw, vs locking to strike
4. multi-attacker and weapon  scenarios

and 
5. those other areas of chin na that haven't even entered this dialog, sealing the breath and cavity press.

pete


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 12, 2008)

clfsean said:


> You're not going to find qinna in judo...
> You're not going to find qinna in FMA...



So, Chin Na isn't exclusive to CMAs, but in your esteemed opinion, there is no "qinna" in Judo, and no "qinna" in the entirety of FMAs. Where will "qinna" be found, pray tell?


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## Taijiman (Jan 12, 2008)

> Like Welsh Wrestling?


I know exactly zilch about Welsh Wresting, so I have know idea   I suppose the term "Chin Na" would be like saying "Wrestling".  Chin Na doesn't have a common starting point, but rather is a category of technique found within many different fighting styles... though you could extract chin na techniques from various sources and come up with a pretty comprehensive training system based on those techniques, and slap an aditional label to it to differentiate it or be more specific if you wanted to (like "Shaolin Chin Na", or "Taijiguy's Hot 'n Sexy Midwestern chin na training system")


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## Taijiman (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm pretty sure FMA contains "chin na"... I have no idea what their term for that kind of stuff would be though.  I only had a little FMA stick fighting training here and there... but I did have a teacher who learned some of his chin na through FMA


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## clfsean (Jan 12, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Actually, I've done a bit of San Soo and Kuntao, which I can only assume contains "qinna" since both are Chinese and both have grappling techniques, though not as technical or sophisticated as the Chin Na of. Obviously the CMA styles that Dr. Yang represents contain more comprehensive systems of Chin Na.


 
Oh... a "bit". San Soo is stretching to be called CMA. I've seen it. I've seen Jimmy Woo on video. At best it's CMA because it's karate taught by a ethnic Chinese.

Kuntao. Is that the IMA/FMA Kuntao or a Hokkien art? Which one?



Doc_Jude said:


> You have a name, real or imagined, a claim to train in a single art while being totally unranked after years of "everyday" training, and a website link that goes nowhere. No, you don't have any contact info.


 
Wow... don't update the profile for lack of reason & somebody gets their feelings hurt. 

Everything on it is real. Name too. 



Doc_Jude said:


> Really? Where, & with whom? Your profile & link provide no info.


 
I updated it just for you.



Doc_Jude said:


> Where did you get the idea that I don't practice CMA? CMAs make up a large portion of my current art (Taijiquan/Kuntao/KungFu SanSoo) and I bring other sources of Chin Na into my training (Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, Tim Cartmell, Al Arsenault).


 
How much hands on time do you have with Dr Yang or Tim Cartmell?

You don't. You do IMA. Your art has CMA influences given Indonesia's melting pot culture. CMA has influenced the native IMA arts. 

It be like saying you're fighter jet pilot, but all you've done is flight time in a Cessna with lots of time on the XBox playing jet games. Not quite the same.



Doc_Jude said:


> Really... with whom did you train in the Bujinkan?


 
Bud. And you??



Doc_Jude said:


> No qinna in judo??? You should do some more judo.


 
Can't... body's too old to get into that now.



Doc_Jude said:


> Are you sure? How many FMAs have you trained in?


 
None... I've piddled with FMA Kali & Arnis stick work. Nothing serious, just exchanging sticks & being taught things about that I didn't know.


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## Taijiman (Jan 12, 2008)

> 1. how chin na may differ from joint locking found in arts outside chinese



Well, in my brief time with Hapkido (about 6 months) is seemed most of the techniques revolved around one type of lock (the kaluki?) and while rougher than the Akido I'd seen, it really focused on using your opponents strength against them.  Kind of the stereotypical taiji approach.  Not much force on force.  In the chin na I've seen from the Shaolin related systems, there's a lot more grip and arm strength training so you can muscle through techniques if you have to.  With my last teacher, if I remember correctly (I didn't get very extensive training in his chin na system) you started off learning 36 base techniques which you would then build off of.  And there was lots of strength training... dynamic tension tiger clawing, fingertip push-ups, partner exercises to develop strength like reversing a wrist lock while the other person resisted as strongly as they could... lots of stuff like that.


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## clfsean (Jan 12, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> So, Chin Na isn't exclusive to CMAs, but in your esteemed opinion, there is no "qinna" in Judo, and no "qinna" in the entirety of FMAs. Where will "qinna" be found, pray tell?


 
Qin Na by name is found in CMA. 

In Judo, FMA, Jujutsu, etc... it's what ever the language of day is to describe the techniques, theories & principles.

Those things will be found. Qin Na won't.


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## Taijiman (Jan 12, 2008)

Unless your speaking Chinese... If I use Tagalog terminology with my Chinese speaking teacher, he's not going to know what the hell I'm talking about   When I'm talking to a mixed group of martial artists who speak English, I'm going to use English terminology.  If I'm talking to mainly CMA people, I'm going to use a combination most likely.  As for principles and training methods... there's no universal chin na training system throughout Chinese martial arts.  Different systems might have different methods.


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## clfsean (Jan 12, 2008)

Taijiman said:


> Unless your speaking Chinese... If I use Tagalog terminology with my Chinese speaking teacher, he's not going to know what the hell I'm talking about  When I'm talking to a mixed group of martial artists who speak English, I'm going to use English terminology. If I'm talking to mainly CMA people, I'm going to use a combination most likely.


 
Huh?? Too many languages there... 

I keep it simple & go just for Cantonese & English.

But I understand what you're saying.



Taijiman said:


> As for principles and training methods... there's no universal chin na training system throughout Chinese martial arts. Different systems might have different methods.


 
That's right but qin na is qin na. Be it qin na from taiji or from choy li fut. Qin na is a set of ideas, principles & methods. Each style/system/family/whatever is CMA is going to have qin na to match it. The qin na found in CLF may share techs & such with taiji, but not wholly or competely. 

The qin na I've learned in CLF shares some ideas, principles & methods I've encountered in the Bujinkan training I've had before. Not the same but similar. In the Buj, it wasn't called qin na. 

The qin na I've learned in CLF shares some ideas, principles & methods I've encountered in taiji & bagua training I've had before. Not the same, but similar except since it's CMA, it's called qin na.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 12, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Oh... a "bit". San Soo is stretching to be called CMA. I've seen it. I've seen Jimmy Woo on video. At best it's CMA because it's karate taught by a ethnic Chinese.


 Kung Fu San Soo is Karate??? Your expertise is *soooo* *obvious*. You don't even know CMA when you see it. 



> Kuntao. Is that the IMA/FMA Kuntao or a Hokkien art? Which one?


 Mostly Fukien (Thit Kun & Thay Lohan Tjie) with some Shantung. I'm sure you're familiar?



> Wow... don't update the profile for lack of reason & somebody gets their feelings hurt.


 Who brought up the profiles again? Uh, YOU. 



> Everything on it is real. Name too.... I updated it just for you.


 Sure. Though, supposedly you've done Chinese Long Fist for so many years, with no rank, & you haven't posted where or with whom you train. & BTW, that www.georgiakungfu.com link hasn't worked since at least December '05.



> How much hands on time do you have with Dr Yang or Tim Cartmell?


 None, but it's very similar to what we do already, just more complex. I get most of it from video, supplementing with books. 



> You don't. You do IMA. Your art has CMA influences given Indonesia's melting pot culture. CMA has influenced the native IMA arts.


 Well, I'm one gen from the most recent "CMA influences", which I listed above.
Oh, wait, I thought that "qinna" wasn't  exclusive to CMAs, right? Isn't that what this whole conversation is about? Is my "qinna" not "qinna"?



> It be like saying you're fighter jet pilot, but all you've done is flight time in a Cessna with lots of time on the XBox playing jet games. Not quite the same.


 Okay. So, any art that has been influenced by Chinese martial arts is worthless, or at least the Chinese aspects of the art? While "qinna" isn't "exclusive to CMAs", any non-CMA's that contain Chinese "qinna" have worthless "qinna"??? You can't possibly be serious... (I'm sure you are, though)



> Bud. And you??


 Bud Malmstrom? That's it? Kyu rank I suppose?



> Can't... body's too old to get into that now.


 Huh. Someone should've told all those old guys doin' Judo, from Gene Lebell to Mifune Kyuso.



> None... I've piddled with FMA Kali & Arnis stick work. Nothing serious, just exchanging sticks & being taught things about that I didn't know.


I assume that's where your knowledge of qinna in FMAs originates from.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 12, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Qin Na by name is found in CMA.
> 
> In Judo, FMA, Jujutsu, etc... it's what ever the language of day is to describe the techniques, theories & principles.
> 
> Those things will be found. Qin Na won't.



Chin Na, Qin Na, qinna... 

Pedantic, anyone?


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## clfsean (Jan 12, 2008)

Ok... I'm tired of this. Seriously. 

Doc Jude... I've seen your myspace page. I had earned my 2nd black belt before you entered high school. I'm done with this & you..

Let me answer a few last questions and I'm dropping you on ignore.

1) Yes, no rank in CMA. In a tradtional CMA kwoon, there are no rankings. There's a sifu and there's students. You know where you fall in. I'm not the sifu, so I'm a student. All of my other classmates refer to me though as sihing.  

2) Kung Fu San Soo... I've watched plenty of it, seen plenty of it... I'd call it Kenpo rather than CMA. Give your statements, you're the one missing info on CMAs. 

3) Buj rank... yeah it was kyu. So what?? Does it make a difference? 

4) You admit you've done 0 training in qin na yet insist you can learn it & supplement it from video & book. That shows exactly what you don't get about it.

5) I don't play judo because I'm not feeling quite like starting it nowadays. What does LaBell or Mifune have to do with it?? They'd been doing for decades at my age. Where the hell did that come from??

6) My comments concerning other arts & qin na have been so misconstrued by you it's not funny. Let me bottom line this... qin na is qin na. Jujutsu is jujutsu. They are not the other. They share things but they are not the other. You can find the contents & other things within each collectively & individually. FMA grappling (no idea at the Tagalog) is not qin na. It is whatever it is.

-----------
You may know your version of silat & other related arts. I never had said I did. You wouldn't catch me trying to tell you what you do & don't know about it. Yet you feel the need to try to tell me what qin na is or is not with 0 hard time in CMA. 

Fine... enjoy yourself.

I just think you've missed the meanings of adat & hormat.

You're now ignored.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 12, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Ok... I'm tired of this. Seriously.
> 
> Doc Jude... I've seen your myspace page. I had earned my 2nd black belt before you entered high school.


 HA! In what? Some Tae Kwon Leap Kiddie program???



> I'm done with this & you..



Why? Is your e-identity falling apart? 



> Let me answer a few last questions and I'm dropping you on ignore.
> 
> 1) Yes, no rank in CMA. In a tradtional CMA kwoon, there are no rankings. There's a sifu and there's students. You know where you fall in. I'm not the sifu, so I'm a student. All of my other classmates refer to me though as sihing.



Funny, you claim rank elsewhere... huh. More contradictions to your e-identity...



> 2) Kung Fu San Soo... I've watched plenty of it, seen plenty of it... I'd call it Kenpo rather than CMA. Give your statements, you're the one missing info on CMAs.


 Funny, the Kenpo and San Soo that I've seen is quite different.  



> 3) Buj rank... yeah it was kyu. So what?? Does it make a difference?


 4 years in the Bujinkan, with a kyu rank? From what I understand, it took you at least three years to reach 7th kyu. So, I wonder how many other "years" of martial arts experience you're overstating. Anyone, & I mean ANYONE, should have 7th kyu in 6 months. What was the problem? 



> 4) You admit you've done 0 training in qin na yet insist you can learn it & supplement it from video & book. That shows exactly what you don't get about it.


 You're thoroughly confused, clearly. The grappling in our Kuntao is very similar to what I've found elsewhere. Kinda like doing years of Jujutsu, & then picking up a Jujutsu book or vid done by someone you've ever met but being able to "get it", and even estimate their skill? Maybe even play with the techniques they lay out rather easily? It comes with real experience.



> 5) I don't play judo because I'm not feeling quite like starting it nowadays. What does LaBell or Mifune have to do with it?? They'd been doing for decades at my age. Where the hell did that come from??


First you're too old, now you're "not feeling quite like starting it nowadays"? Get over it.



> 6) My comments concerning other arts & qin na have been so misconstrued by you it's not funny. Let me bottom line this... qin na is qin na. Jujutsu is jujutsu. They are not the other. They share things but they are not the other. You can find the contents & other things within each collectively & individually. FMA grappling (no idea at the Tagalog) is not qin na. It is whatever it is.



So, I'll ask again: if "qin na" isn't exclusive to CMAs, where else can it be found?




> You may know your version of silat & other related arts. I never had said I did. You wouldn't catch me trying to tell you what you do & don't know about it. Yet you feel the need to try to tell me what qin na is or is not with 0 hard time in CMA.
> 
> Fine... enjoy yourself.
> 
> ...



Pity you never answered my questions. Oh, & respect goes both ways, & no hyper-inflated Internet martial arts identity/CMA snob is going to get my respect.


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## theletch1 (Jan 12, 2008)

[playnice]Jeff Letchford[/playnice]


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 13, 2008)

pete said:


> wow, i got a little excited when i saw the topic header, but disappointed to read this conversation. how 'bout...
> 
> we talk about :
> 1. how chin na may differ from joint locking found in arts outside chinese


In my experience, the Chinese methods of joint locking work on the fingers more than any other. Grasping the fingers, whether on a grabbing hand or the intercepting hand, and the use of the joints proximal to the fingers to increase leverage is unique to Chinese grappling methods.
Also, the ways that Chin Na's grab counters turn into immobilizations is pretty ingenious.



> 2. differences between muscle/bone separation from tendon twisting/tearing


Are you talking more about Eagle Claw attacks vs Fen Jin twist&Bend?



> 3. strategies for locking to submit vs. locking to throw, vs locking to strike


 For me, other factors come into locking. Who I'm grappling, and if it's a multiple opponent scenario. For example, a wrist press like Qian Ya Wan is very useful for both submitting, throwing, or keeping other attackers at bay. You can even throw them into their friends with techniques like this that keep them up on their toes.



> 4. multi-attacker and weapon  scenarios


In weapon scenarios, only techniques that move to the side or back of a knife wielder are wise. "Turning Body Elbow Wrap" (Zhuan Shen Chan Zhou) is great for attacks from the rear and multi-attacker scenarios especially since it moves you away from other possible attackers, & if you work a strike into the middle of the technique, as you usually can with a technique that has an initial control to it, it's much more effective.


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## pete (Jan 13, 2008)

thanks (finally) for your direct response. I am, in no way looking to 'take over' this thread, but i think most will agree this to be a better direction by sticking to topic instead of staging personal inquisitions...

i don't have musch time now, and will not be on the 'puter for the rest of the day, so allow me to comment on #1 now and hope to get to the others when time better permits.

Chin Na that based on what I have learned through my Tai Chi teacher (W.Ting) and hands-on with Dr Yang through all 6 levels of his training program over 5 years, i agree that Chin Na includes grasping fingers, thumb, and hand in its arsenal... HOWEVER, the point of Chin Na is not to simply lock the joint being touched, or rely solely on 'pain compliance', BUT to USE YOUR WHOLE BODY TO CONTROL YOUR OPPONENT'S WHOLE BODY. That means controlling their CENTER, their spine, their tantien.

So Fingers are just an entry point, as would be an elbow or shoulder.

I cannot speak for other non-CMA arts being compared with Chin Na, but would like to learn from thise who can: is this same, similar, or completely different from what you do?

pete


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 13, 2008)

Taijiman said:


> "A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow..."
> 
> Just like "joint locking" isn't exclusively British just because you say it in English and might have learned it in the UK from an Englishman


 
Just as a note and a bit of an addition actually to the above, not arguing the point

Chinese Grappling is Shuaijiao (which is incredibly old) which is not is not Judo, Jujitsu, MMA, BJJ, Kempo, Taiji, Wing Chun, Bujinkan, TKD or JKD. 

And to be honest I do not know what the argument is about either. 

Why do we have the need to associate things that are not CMA with CMA? Did it come from CMA, possibly but who cares.

I would not train Jujitsu and say I was doing Qinna any more than I would train Wing Chun and call it JKD.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 13, 2008)

> I would not train Jujitsu and say I was doing Qinna any more than I would train Wing Chun and call it JKD.



good point. 
when it comes to definitions, they have to be internatlized in order to be into use.  it would appear that the definitions of the arts seemed to some to be the art itself.  that is not really the case.  for that reason, it doesn't make sense to say; to burn fire or wash water-
except in certain rituals of veneration where i have come across these ideas.
furthermore, although it would be great if everyone understood things the same to be able to communicate, what one person thinks about a art may be different from the experiences of another.  even for longtime practitioners, there are still things that make them unique- 
form is a big factor however.  the question is, is it just the physical form or some sort of spirit or attitude that becomes movement with certain qualities. for example the animal styles.

there are differences in the arts.  both positive and negative i would imagine.
form is only a sort of guideline.  if someone discovers some use for the techniques(the guidelines), then that's great.  but  one should  always  know that there is very much to learn in any one given system.  
in the same way, it would be unrealistic to deny connections between all arts.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 13, 2008)

pete said:


> Chin Na that based on what I have learned through my Tai Chi teacher (W.Ting) and hands-on with Dr Yang through all 6 levels of his training program over 5 years, i agree that Chin Na includes grasping fingers, thumb, and hand in its arsenal... HOWEVER, the point of Chin Na is not to simply lock the joint being touched, or rely solely on 'pain compliance', BUT to USE YOUR WHOLE BODY TO CONTROL YOUR OPPONENT'S WHOLE BODY. That means controlling their CENTER, their spine, their tantien.
> 
> So Fingers are just an entry point, as would be an elbow or shoulder.
> 
> ...



Many of the techniques in the styles that I've trained do not focus on this as much as the Chinese systems. I think that this aspect of Chin Na is superior to other arts. Of course, most grappling arts have some aspect of taking the opponent's balance or "center", through footwork, body positioning when applying the technique, and the appropriate application of either mechanical or pain compliance.
Of course, I'm only coming from my study of JMAs and Pentjak Silat (my style has a rather liberal helping of CMAs, namely Kuntao and Taijiquan for the grappling aspects)


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 9, 2008)

clfsean said:


> 2) Kung Fu San Soo... I've watched plenty of it, seen plenty of it... I'd call it Kenpo rather than CMA. Give your statements, you're the one missing info on CMAs.


 
I teach kempo and used to train in San Soo in El Paso, TX. I came up to Washington and switched to Kempo because it was the closest thing to San Soo I could find. In fact, they're VERY similar. But there are differences. I'd say they came up the same mountain on different paths. 

San Soo actually does have an established lineage, and the way it's trained in America, to a degree, is not how they train in China. In china, they don't have belts, and certain training aspects are different. But it's still San Soo, not Kempo.


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