# 2nd Amendment and the Nunchucku



## SL4Drew (Mar 5, 2009)

Someone challenged NY's law prohibiting the possession of nunchucks.  I believe some other states have similar laws. Although the statute was upheld, it looks like it will be challenged in the US Supreme Court.

For those interested in more, you can read more here: http://schlissellaw.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/incorporating-the-2nd-amendment-against-the-states-kirkland-ellis-is-on-the-case/


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 5, 2009)

SL4Drew said:


> Someone challenged NY's law prohibiting the possession of nunchucks. I believe some other states have similar laws. Although the statute was upheld, it looks like it will be challenged in the US Supreme Court.
> 
> For those interested in more, you can read more here: http://schlissellaw.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/incorporating-the-2nd-amendment-against-the-states-kirkland-ellis-is-on-the-case/


 
It will be interesting to see what happens with this. I know in the Parker Kenpo crowd I ran with in the 70's/80's circa, we used to tweak some of the techs to accomodate nunchaku on the possibility of bumping into some gang rat who had a pair. Interesting thing is: Most folks are so bad at using them as a proper flail, that they aren't a threat to anyone rushing. Milking the power out of them comes not from whipping them Bruce Lee style, but rahter dragging the distal end slowly through the air, making them not much more than a long club with a wierd juicy middle piece: easy to jam and disarm by attacking the vitals of the guy holding them. Not nearly as deadly as a dinner fork in the right hands, in my opinion. 

Yet, because of their prevalence, and how intimidating they can be when demo'd at speed, the perception of them is as being much more deadly than what they really are...just a long club. And an unstable one at that. 

I was watching one night when a brown belt student asked an old instructor of mine -- in a somewhat challenging tone -- what he would do if he was attacked by a pair of "numbchucks". Prof sez, "Let's try it and see". So the student came at him with a flail of basically a number 1 type attack. Mr. Perry did a snapping palm heel strike to the hammerfist side of the incoming hand, which stuttered the momentum of the flail, sending it off wildly in all directions. Followed instantaneously with a front snap to the guys groin. Perry wasn't large by any stretch, but he was fast. The brown belt got a knot on his on forearm and hand from the wild flail, bent over from the snap kick, and looked up to see Perry had closed the gap, pinned the weapon hand to the brown belts body, and raised his other hand as if ready to deal the final blow to wherever. "Not such the great weapon you thought it was?", the teacher asked, grinning over the stunned and bent brown belt. 

I never got his finesse (I'm a bit more on the oafish side), but when I had a guy pull a pair on me bouncing, I bum-rushed him into a head-n-arm clinch, and proceeded to bash him with head-butts, knees, and elbows, until he could no longer hold onto anything (TKO). Not as refined or elegant as Perry's, but the only place I took a shot was a weak one hitting my forewarm while I crashed him.

In a way, I hope they win. I'm way less likely to die from a pair of chucks than a bullet: Haven't figgered out how to bum rush those, yet.


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## Doc (Mar 5, 2009)

While at one time they were pretty prevalent on the streets of "The people's Republic of California," an interesting thing occurred on the way to legally "outlawing" nunchaku. They placed them, and all other martial arts tools into a section with "dirks, daggers, straight razors, sawed off shotguns, etc as weapons," and made them a felony to possess along with throwing stars and other assorted "dangerous weapons" outside of a licensed business that uses them to teach martial arts. The problem is, it didn't take even our dumbest gangsters long to figure out that carrying a gun in California was only a misdemeanor. The culture that carried these weapons on the street, if they ever existed, now carry guns and have been since the law was enacted in the seventies.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 5, 2009)

Doc said:


> While at one time they were pretty prevalent on the streets of "The people's Republic of California," an interesting thing occurred on the way to legally "outlawing" nunchaku. They placed them, and all other martial arts tools into a section with "dirks, daggers, straight razors, sawed off shotguns, etc as weapons," and made them a felony to possess along with throwing stars and other assorted "dangerous weapons" outside of a licensed business that uses them to teach martial arts. The problem is, it didn't take even our dumbest gangsters long to figure out that carrying a gun in California was only a misdemeanor. The culture that carried these weapons on the street, if they ever existed, now carry guns and have been since the law was enacted in the seventies.



California classes nunchaku possession as a misdemeanor:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php


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## John Bishop (Mar 5, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> California classes nunchaku possession as a misdemeanor:
> 
> http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php



Sometimes they actually apply some common sense to lawmaking.  Doc's right.  In the old days, 70's-80's you'd go down for a felony if you had a billy club, and a misdemeanor if you had a loaded firearm.


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## Doc (Mar 5, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> California classes nunchaku possession as a misdemeanor:
> 
> http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php



12020PC is a felony statute, that MAY at the discretion of the prosecutor be lowered to a misdemeanor. 

But ALL offenses are arrested, booked, and charged as felonies. They are euphemistically known as "wobblers."

Gang banger with a pair of chuks in his back pocket - felony.
On your way home with a pair wrapped in your gi - misdemeanor.

But, both will be booked as felonies. The discretion is in the hands of the prosecutors, not the arresting officers. Same as "Domestic Violence." All booked as felonies sir. It doesn't become a misdemeanor until and unless the prosecutor knocks it down at a prelim.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 5, 2009)

Doc said:


> 12020PC is a felony statute, that MAY at the discretion of the prosecutor be lowered to a misdemeanor.
> 
> But ALL offenses are arrested, booked, and charged as felonies. They are euphemistically known as "wobblers."
> 
> ...



A 'wobbler' is - or was, when I was in SoCal, a 2nd strike felony.  And on my brief glance at the law, it would appear that someone with a felony for a variety of offenses or a previous conviction on 12020 would be classed a felony.  So I can see the use of the term, but it originally meant that the next felony conviction was automatic life under Three Strikes.  Interesting.


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## Doc (Mar 5, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> A 'wobbler' is - or was, when I was in SoCal, a 2nd strike felony.  And on my brief glance at the law, it would appear that someone with a felony for a variety of offenses or a previous conviction on 12020 would be classed a felony.  So I can see the use of the term, but it originally meant that the next felony conviction was automatic life under Three Strikes.  Interesting.



Sorry sir, but I learned the term as a rookie in the academy from a prosecutors lecture in the late sixties long before "Three Strikes" was enacted. They began using the term as a discretionary but appropriate misnomer for two strike felons later.

L.A.S.D. Class 156


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## Hand Sword (Mar 6, 2009)

Is this still on the books in CA? A gun is a misdemeanor?


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## Doc (Mar 6, 2009)

Hand Sword said:


> Is this still on the books in CA? A gun is a misdemeanor?



Illegal possession - yes.


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## sjansen (Mar 7, 2009)

The republic of Kalifornia is something in and of itself in the US. They outlaw any weapon the gangs were using at the time and leave the public at large defenseless. They are fashionistic in there outlawing of arms and the same for their own citizens. The felons don't turn in their weapons, but law abiding citizens do. This is something that is lost to those making laws in the communist republic of Kalifornia. Unfortunately, those law abiding citizens in Kalifornia have to pay for such arrogance. 

So sorry Kalifornians. My state not only lets us carry nunchuks, but they also have to issue all law abiding citizens a concealed carry permit to carry a firearm.

So much for sunny Kalifornia,


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## arnisador (Mar 7, 2009)

sjansen said:


> They are fashionistic in there outlawing of arms



They're "fashionistic"? Is this a right to bare arms thing, like Michelle Obama?


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## still learning (Mar 9, 2009)

Hello,  Another reason why America is falling apart?  ...stupid laws....we can carry shotguns, kitchen knives of all lenghts, baseball bats, spearguns,bow and arrows, machete knife, sickles for cutting weeds, in our homes....

But not "nunchucks"?   UM!

What next ?   Ban stones and rocks kept in our homes too?  or a sharpen sticks too!  (pencils and pens)

It has always been the little things...that adds up...that made GREAT countries....fall...and we are falling down...

 the up side?  ....there is still sand on the beach,  (save some to throw in your eyes- kept in the home....as the "SANDWICH"

Aloha


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 9, 2009)

Doc said:


> Illegal possession - yes.


 
But if you hire a good attorney, you can often get it reduced to a trespassing charge. Odd, but true.


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## Matt (Mar 9, 2009)

arnisador said:


> They're "fashionistic"? Is this a right to bare arms thing, like Michelle Obama?


I think he means they get rewritten to incorporate whatever 'fad' weapon is in vogue at the time, effective or not. 

I've always been in favor of the right to arm bears - it would certainly keep the hunters on their toes.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 9, 2009)

So what exactly is the ruling for nunchaku owned and used to teach martial arts?
I have never actually seen an actual written expanation on this, and have heard so many different versions from different people it is not even funny, including active police officers who have given completely different versions on what the lawmight be.
Is there something that can be easily printed out that clearly states the ruling on this?


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## Tames D (Mar 9, 2009)

sjansen said:


> The republic of Kalifornia is something in and of itself in the US. They outlaw any weapon the gangs were using at the time and leave the public at large defenseless. They are fashionistic in there outlawing of arms and the same for their own citizens. The felons don't turn in their weapons, but law abiding citizens do. This is something that is lost to those making laws in the communist republic of Kalifornia. Unfortunately, those law abiding citizens in Kalifornia have to pay for such arrogance.
> 
> So sorry Kalifornians. My state not only lets us carry nunchuks, but they also have to issue all law abiding citizens a concealed carry permit to carry a firearm.
> 
> So much for sunny Kalifornia,


Come out to my house and you'll find no shortage of firearms in my home or on my person and I don't recall ever turning in any weapon. 
On a side note: Spelling California with a K? I'll give you that one since I grew up behind the orange curtain (Orange County) but c'mon, at least spell nunchaku correctly. 
I hate to make my final post on a down note but what the hell...


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## John Bishop (Mar 9, 2009)

CALIFORNIA CODES
*PENAL* *CODE*
SECTION 12020-12040




12020.  (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
   (1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable
firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a
firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which
contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or
carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst
trigger activator, *any nunchaku*, any short-barreled shotgun, any
short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any
leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol,
any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge
knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice
handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon
of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy,
sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

(b) Subdivision (a) *does not apply* to any of the following:

(3) The possession of a *nunchaku* on the premises of a school which
holds a regulatory or business license and teaches the arts of
self-defense.
   (4) The manufacture of a *nunchaku* for sale to, or the sale of a
*nunchaku* to, a school which holds a regulatory or business license
and teaches the arts of self-defense.

(3) As used in this section, a "*nunchaku*" means an instrument
consisting of two or more sticks, clubs, bars or rods to be used as
handles, connected by a rope, cord, wire, or chain, in the design of
a weapon used in connection with the practice of a system of
self-defense such as karate.


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## Doc (Mar 10, 2009)

John Bishop said:


> CALIFORNIA CODES
> *PENAL* *CODE*
> SECTION 12020-12040
> 
> ...


Thanks John. 


For those that don't know, the law allows you to be on the premises of a licensed school with them, but there is a glaring hole that makes no legal exemption for transporting them to, or from the school. Translation: Don't get caught with them because it will be totally up to the cop what happens next.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 10, 2009)

Doc said:


> Thanks John.
> 
> 
> For those that don't know, the law allows you to be on the premises of a licensed school with them, but there is a glaring hole that makes no legal exemption for transporting them to, or from the school. Translation: Don't get caught with them because it will be totally up to the cop what happens next.


 
Like most other laws in Kalifornia this does not surprise me at all. Thanks John and Doc for some clarification there.


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## jks9199 (Mar 10, 2009)

It's actually a common headache with some of the weapon laws that allow possession and use as a collector or as historical reenactment, etc.  My personal take, as a cop, was simple:  The guy with "nunchuks" concealed in his pants leg... he's charged.  The guy with them "concealed" in his training bag, with a uniform and other martial arts gear?  He's taking them to or from a training facility.  They guy practicing with them in a park, doing a kata or practicing drills?  Training.  The guy using them to whack street signs or just flailing at stuff?  Not training.


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## DavidCC (Mar 10, 2009)

John Bishop said:


> (3) As used in this section, a "*nunchaku*" means an instrument
> consisting of two or more sticks, clubs, bars or rods to be used as
> handles, connected by a rope, cord, wire, or chain, in the design of
> a weapon used in connection with the practice of a system of
> self-defense such as karate.


 
The 3-section staff would also fall under this definition, but that weapon's use among gang members and hoodlums has really dropped off lately.


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## Matt (Mar 10, 2009)

DavidCC said:


> The 3-section staff would also fall under this definition, but that weapon's use among gang members and hoodlums has really dropped off lately.




I brought one back from a seminar once, and my wife saw me practicing in the back yard with it and asked,"So if you have one of these and you get mugged do you hand it to the mugger and wait for them to knock themselves unconscious with it?"

I feel similarly about the nunchaku. 

In Massachusetts, the law is so broadly written that if you tie your friends shoelaces together, he's in possession of an illegal martial arts weapon. Same goes for non-cordless phones and jumpropes. Perhaps if you just disconnect the chain, they magically become 'sticks' again when you transport them to and from the dojo.


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## Matt (Mar 10, 2009)

here's how it relates to sales:



> Chapter 269: Section 12. Manufacturing and selling knives, slung shots, swords, bludgeons and similar weapons
> 
> Section 12. Whoever manufactures or causes to be manufactured, or sells or exposes for sale, an instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as a dirk knife, a switch knife or any knife having an automatic spring release device by which the blade is released from the handle, having a blade of over one and one-half inches or a device or case which enables a knife with a locking blade to be drawn at a locked position, any ballistic knife, or any knife with a detachable blade capable of being propelled by any mechanism, slung shot, sling shot, bean blower, sword cane, pistol cane, bludgeon, blackjack, nunchaku, zoobow, also known as klackers or kung fu sticks, or any similar weapon consisting of two sticks of wood, plastic or metal connected at one end by a length of rope, chain, wire or leather, a shuriken or any similar pointed starlike object intended to injure a person when thrown, or a manrikigusari or similar length of chain having weighted ends; or metallic knuckles or knuckles of any other substance which could be put to the same use and with the same or similar effect as metallic knuckles, shall be punished by a fine of not less than fifty nor more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than six months; provided, however, that sling shots may be manufactured and sold to clubs or associations conducting sporting events where such sling shots are used.


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## Stix (Mar 16, 2009)

Matt said:


> I've always been in favor of the right to arm bears - it would certainly keep the hunters on their toes.


 
Yes, but it would give us backpackers even more to worry about.


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## Doc (Mar 16, 2009)

Stix said:


> Yes, but it would give us backpackers even more to worry about.



Hurry and come home, There are bunch of people waiting on you.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 16, 2009)

arnisador said:


> They're "fashionistic"? Is this a right to bare arms thing, like Michelle Obama?



_


			
				Matt said:
			
		


			I've always been in favor of the right to arm bears - it would certainly keep the hunters on their toes.
		
Click to expand...


:rofl:
_


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## kidswarrior (Mar 16, 2009)

Matt said:


> I brought one back from a seminar once, and my wife saw me practicing in the back yard with it and asked,"So if you have one of these and you get mugged do you hand it to the mugger and wait for them to knock themselves unconscious with it?"


 I see your wife and mine have been sharing ideas. 



> I feel similarly about the nunchaku.
> 
> In Massachusetts, the law is so broadly written that if you tie your friends shoelaces together, he's in possession of an illegal martial arts weapon. Same goes for non-cordless phones and jumpropes. Perhaps if you just disconnect the chain, they magically become 'sticks' again when you transport them to and from the dojo.


It's all a little silly, isn't it? I've seen teenagers who could use a pencil to rip furrows in soft tissue -- and we know how much of the human body is soft tissue. That's without mentioning the possibilities inherent in a stabbing motion.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 17, 2009)

Nuchuckus are unusefull. Your reasons for carrying them around are for violence only; this proves intent no matter what the situation; even; if you are the victim. 
sean


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## seninoniwashi (Mar 21, 2009)

John Bishop said:


> CALIFORNIA CODES
> *PENAL* *CODE*
> SECTION 12020-12040
> 
> ...


 
So essentially they're only legit on school property? What about the home? I don't see any mention of the home. Maybe there's more to the code?


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## Doc (Mar 21, 2009)

seninoniwashi said:


> So essentially they're only legit on school property? What about the home? I don't see any mention of the home. Maybe there's more to the code?



No there isn't. The code is clearly, "unclear" and ambiguous. It allows possession only at a "licensed business" for the teaching of the martial arts. It makes no provision for transportation to or from the business, or for legal possession anywhere else. Not at your home, a tournament, and ironically not even the "business" that sales them.


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## seninoniwashi (Mar 23, 2009)

Doc said:


> No there isn't. The code is clearly, "unclear" and ambiguous. It allows possession only at a "licensed business" for the teaching of the martial arts. It makes no provision for transportation to or from the business, or for legal possession anywhere else. Not at your home, a tournament, and ironically not even the "business" that sales them.


 
Wow, that's freaking lame. That's a huge loophole if you ask me. Thanks Doc!


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