# MMA and similar arts are not true Martial Arts?



## Hanzou (Mar 12, 2015)

Came across this article from a guy who does Aikido, basically saying that due to a lack of spiritual focus, and instead a focus that purely revolves around fighting, MMA and similar styles can't be considered "Martial Arts".



> The original concept of UFC as a proving ground where stylistic martial theory could be put to the test was also very interesting. But the more I watched, the more the fights (and fighters) start to all look the same, and the more I saw lucky wild strikes and raw physical power being used to win fights instead of actual technical skills. There are a very few people in mixed martial arts today who I would consider to be true _martial artists_, those who have dedicated their lives to honing not only their physical skills, but their mind and character as well. The true martial artist in MMA are the few shining examples awash in a sea of athletes with self-esteem and anger issues. *No doubt MMA fighters are elite athletes and dangerous fighters, but by and large, they are not martial artists.*




Shoshin Examiner Aikido in the Age of MMA

I find such reasoning to be silly, but I would lying if I said I hadn't heard it before from traditional stylists on one form or another.

So, are MMA and similar arts truly martial arts, or are the something different? Perhaps simply combative sports?


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2015)

> But the more I watched, the more the fights (and fighters) start to all look the same, and the more I saw lucky wild strikes and raw physical power being used to win fights instead of actual technical skills.



This would seem to demonstrate some gaps in the writer's technical understanding.



> MMA gyms teach fighting skills and techniques without the underlying spiritual and philosophical components that foster the personal growth, mental control, respect for other human beings, and social responsibility that _must_ accompany the powerful knowledge and skills that are being sought. The fact that martial arts are being stripped of their philosophical and ethical basis and offered up for mass consumption in this form is very disconcerting



If being a real martial art necessarily includes "_underlying spiritual and philosophical components that foster the personal growth, mental control, respect for other human beings, and social responsibility_", then  most martial arts schools in _any_ style are not teaching real martial arts. Even most schools that give lip service to that kind of personal development aren't really doing a lot to effectively reach that goal.

Martial arts can be used as a tool for personal growth, but that's kind of a personal journey you have to take on your own. No teacher can hand it to you or make it a requirement for the next belt test. I wrote down some of my thoughts on the matter here.


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## K-man (Mar 12, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Came across this article from a guy who does Aikido, basically saying that due to a lack of spiritual focus, and instead a focus that purely revolves around fighting, MMA and similar styles can't be considered "Martial Arts".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately you find almost everyone else's opinion silly, and this is no exception. 
 This is the sentence to which you refer ..
_"No doubt MMA fighters are elite athletes and dangerous fighters, but by and large, they are not martial artists."_

It just depends on how you define 'martial artist'. In this light probably none of the RBSD systems would be martial arts either. I think it's an interesting concept and worthy of discussion but not 'silly'.

Of course it wouldn't be you without a sting in the tail for 'traditional stylists'. Obviously traditional stylists shouldn't have an opinion.


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## Drose427 (Mar 12, 2015)

Personally, I dont consider MMA its own Martial Art or Style, but I find no reason to not consider other Combative sports like wrestling, boxing, etc. Martial Arts.


You can get all those things in Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai, etc.

While the "Martial" pertains to military, to me "Martial Arts" are just systems and/or traditions of combat practices, regardless of purposes.

While some will say it cant be counted as an "art" without the spirituality and philosophy, I disagree. seeing someone perform something at such a high level is awe-inspiring, like an art form. 

To me, even the combative sports apply here because fighters are striving to improve their abilities to the highest level.

In advertisement for our school, we say "do it for yourself"

The discipline, dedication, personal growth, responsibility, etc are all talked about briefly but we dont focus on them in the ad. If you're still achieving whatever you set out to through combative sports, you're still able to learn many of the lessons you could learn in other arts or styles.

To me, train for what you want. Your reasons for training doesnt define a combat system as a Martial Art. Your dedication to the art form does


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## Buka (Mar 12, 2015)

"_Even though I know that fighting for the sake of competition was explicitly denounced by O-Sensei and is contrary to the essence of Aikido philosophy, I still enjoy a good fight, and I often feel terribly guilty about it. I used to justify my interest and indirect support of MMA by saying that in order to have effective defense, we must understand the physical expression of aggression in all its forms, a kind of “know your opponent” rationale, which I think has some validity._"

Please tell me he's being tongue and cheek clever. Please?

Please tell me he's not feeling guilty over watching something because his Instructor is making him feel that way.


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## Langenschwert (Mar 12, 2015)

Oh dear. I find the quote in the OP's post to be taking itself far too seriously. 

We can get technical whether MMA is a martial art or not. It is specifically a ruleset. However, didn't Judo start out as a ruleset? It's certainly it's own martial art today regardless.

As time goes on, MMA fighters are starting to look more and more the same to me, but I'm fussy and jaded. There certainly is the general outline of an MMA "style" being formed I think. I think sooner or later, you'll be able to call MMA its own martial art.

I really hate it when someone says "if your art doesn't have XYZ it's not a martial art".


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## K-man (Mar 12, 2015)

Langenschwert said:


> As time goes on, MMA fighters are starting to look more and more the same to me, but I'm fussy and jaded. There certainly is the general outline of an MMA "style" being formed I think. I think sooner or later, you'll be able to call MMA its own martial art.


I would regard BJJ as a martial on its own because it is developing or has developed an advanced form of principally ground fighting. Generally guys in MMA have been from varying backgrounds who have supplement their original style with another for Mixed Martial Art competition. These days gyms are springing up and promoting 'MMA'. How can it be mixed if it is one style of training? There are guys all over the world trying to develop comprehensive fighting systems but normally they won't be as heavily focused on one element of their training as you see in MMA where the BJJ aspect is dominant. In the same light that BJJ is a martial art so too are System, Krav and Silat and all of these are technically mixed martial arts but each with an individual syllabus.

I would suggest that MMA as such is not a martial art by itself but a system of training that will vary from one gym to another and emphasising different aspects of the training. Unless you are going to standardise the system and give it a name, I can't see how MMA can be a martial art in the true sense. It is certainly a grey area.


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## drop bear (Mar 12, 2015)

K-man said:


> Unfortunately you find almost everyone else's opinion silly, and this is no exception.
> This is the sentence to which you refer ..
> _"No doubt MMA fighters are elite athletes and dangerous fighters, but by and large, they are not martial artists."_
> 
> ...



Do you feel the opinion has merit?


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## drop bear (Mar 12, 2015)

Ok I think people don't understand mma or spirituality. And that one of the paths to personal development is hardship.

that's philosophy that is.


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## drop bear (Mar 12, 2015)

K-man said:


> I would suggest that MMA as such is not a martial art by itself but a system of training that will vary from one gym to another and emphasising different aspects of the training. Unless you are going to standardise the system and give it a name, I can't see how MMA can be a martial art in the true sense. It is certainly a grey area.



Is karate standardized?


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## Danny T (Mar 12, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Is karate standardized?


Karate is an all encompassing name as is Kung Fu. There are many different systems of Karate with their own names and they are standardized (same with Kung Fu).
MMA competitions because of the specific rules, time limits, & 10-9 must point system the methods, strategies, & tactics are becoming rather standardized. If the environment were an ever changing item, if weapons were allowed, or multiply opponents were introduced you see some different methods, strategies, and tactics.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 12, 2015)

I can just guess how this thread is going to turn out.


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## K-man (Mar 12, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Is karate standardized?


No. Karate is a generic term like MMA. When people say they study karate that is all the average person understands. But within karate there are different styles that are standardised. If I do Goju karate and travel to another country and train there at a Goju school, I will find the same training as at home. If I go to a Shotokan school, the training will be different. There will be things in common but I won't be able to perform a lot of their training, for example kata and bunkai. 

A similar divide applies to generic Aikido. There are differences across the different styles.


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## drop bear (Mar 12, 2015)

K-man said:


> No. Karate is a generic term like MMA. When people say they study karate that is all the average person understands. But within karate there are different styles that are standardised. If I do Goju karate and travel to another country and train there at a Goju school, I will find the same training as at home. If I go to a Shotokan school, the training will be different. There will be things in common but I won't be able to perform a lot of their training, for example kata and bunkai.
> 
> A similar divide applies to generic Aikido. There are differences across the different styles.



And mma If organization opens multiple schools.


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## qianfeng (Mar 13, 2015)

The guy doesnt know what his talking about. The word for martial art in Chinese is 武术, 武 means martial and 术 means technique not art. People dont have to learn spirituality or whatever to do martial arts.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> ... This is the sentence to which you refer ..
> _"No doubt MMA fighters are elite athletes and dangerous fighters, but by and large, they are not martial artists."_
> 
> It just depends on how you define 'martial artist'....


|
The Aikido stylist has it generally correct in terms of traditional martial arts, IMO.  But again you have a definitional problem about what is MMA vs TMA.
|
As well as what is spiritual vs. whatever....  TO ME, the key word is 'traditional,' not 'true.'   That's the defining term.
|
I've said this before is that the MMA arena makes a great proving ground for traditional martial arts, in my case karate.  Those "tippy tappy" baggers that K-Man is complaining about are going to get flattened pretty quickly in the MMA Octagon....
|
That was over @ the "How Important is Fighting in Your Martial Art" T.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> ... would suggest that MMA as such is not a martial art by itself but a system of training that will vary from one gym to another and emphasising different aspects of the training. Unless you are going to standardise the system and give it a name, I can't see how MMA can be a martial art in the true sense. It is certainly a grey area.


|
I think, stylist differences aside (and I'll leave the technicals to those such as yourself), MMA schools as a generalization practice certain conventions that are fundamentally producing athletic skills.  So whether it's BJJ or not, or something else, the underlying base is physical athletics.
|
This is why you see the terms such as timing, distancing, balance, coordination, movement, reflexes, etc. when MMA type coaches or practitioners are talking about their martial art.  Of course, many, many  karateka do so too.  But then it reveals they are taking a physical,athletic approach as well.  That may qualify as good sport karate, it does not measure up to traditional karate....
|
In fact when done mechanistically, a physical approach to traditional karate is an absolute disaster.  This is where K-Man said you get those bagger's videos that show karateka robots marching forward leading with their face, forward hand in a low block, opposite hand chambered @ Waist.  Standing like statues saying, no begging, "Hit me."


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## Zero (Mar 13, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> 
> This is why you see the terms such as *timing, distancing, balance, coordination, movement, reflexes*, etc. when MMA type coaches or practitioners are talking about their martial art.  Of course, many, many  karateka do so too.  But then it reveals they are taking a physical,athletic approach as well.  *That may qualify as good sport karate, it does not measure up to traditional karate....*


Hi!  I find two aspects of your post hard to follow ShotoNoob.  Firstly, so I understand what you mean by "traditional karate", from your previous posts I take it by this you mean karate equipped for and focusing on kumite, as in full contact, rather than just sport karate which is just point ("tippy tappy") karate with little real contact?  Is that correct?  If not please let me know what you mean by "traditional karate".

Secondly, it seems to be that you think aspects such as _*timing, distancing, balance, coordination, movement, reflexes* _has no place in traditional karate.  And that these aspects are simply the physical/athletic approach and again, do not measure up to traditional karate.  Is that what you are saying?

If so, can you please explain why these aspects and attributes do not apply to or have a place in either the training or application of traditional karate?

I am struggling to see how that could be?  Surely at some stage, no matter what level of focus you place on the "mental" side of training, to implement such you must engage the physical side of your body to perform these techniques?  Even your "air punching" of which you speak highly of requires physical expression of the mental elements.

I thought it would then follow that if your physical expression of such does not contain and have an appreciation of balance, movement and coordination, the movements will be little more than a shambles.  And if you are seeking to apply these movements effectively against another person attacking you, surely reflexes, timing and distancing (and thus training in, studying and appreciating such) is crucial to ensuring your success?


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I've said this before is that the MMA arena makes a great proving ground for traditional martial arts, in my case karate.  Those "tippy tappy" baggers that K-Man is complaining about are going to get flattened pretty quickly in the MMA Octagon....


The MMA arena is great for testing those who are training to compete. It does nothing for the rest of us. 

The 'tippy tappy baggers' I refer to actually train MMA and BJJ. They are the ones that are bagging every other style so I am assuming that in the ring they could whoop everyone's ****.


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> The MMA arena is great for testing those who are training to compete. It does nothing for the rest of us.



I disagree. People also take up MMA for self defense purposes, and personal fitness.


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## Jenna (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Came across this article from a guy who does Aikido, basically saying that due to a lack of spiritual focus, and instead a focus that purely revolves around fighting, MMA and similar styles can't be considered "Martial Arts".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder why does this concern you whether your art or any art is validated in some other persons eyes?  Is it not most important what your own practice is to you rather than what the world thinks of it? Why is it important? Jx


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I wonder why does this concern you whether your art or any art is validated in some other persons eyes?  Is it not most important what your own practice is to you rather than what the world thinks of it? Why is it important? Jx



I wouldn't say it concerns me, as in I stay up at night thinking about it. It simply makes me curious if others share his opinion, and what is the root of his opinion. 

For example, the author stated he felt guilty for enjoying MMA because it clashed with his Aikido teachings. Such devotion is almost religious/cult-like in nature, and pretty interesting from a psychological viewpoint.


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

Ah, I realized the author is the guy who has done those weird Aikido videos that challenge other martial arts.

Anyone remember this?






Here's his video where he beats up on some Karate kids;






Frankly, Im speechless....


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Ah, I realized the author is the guy who has done those weird Aikido videos that challenge other martial arts.
> 
> Anyone remember this?
> 
> ...


Frankly, I'm speechless too. What have these videos got to do with the topic, or are you putting them up to show how bad the sparring is?


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

Mmm! Just checked out the background to the video ...

_"I visited my friend’s karate dojo for sparring class with some of their black belts. I am not wearing any hand protection because I made a rule for myself that I would not do any punching, only trying to defend and control the opponent. My opponents have various levels of training experience ranging from 8 to 14 years, and one of them also has experience with BJJ. I got hit quite a few times, and my opponents’ hand protection made wrist techniques pretty much impossible to execute, but I believe these highlights show some of the effective potential of Aikido principles against trained, resisting opponents. This video is NOT intended to assert that Aikido is inherently better than karate or any other art, only that it deserves recognition as a legitimate martial art and viable method of self-defense. Thanks to my fellow martial artists for their hospitality, spirit, and sincere camaraderie."
_
Just for context.


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> Frankly, I'm speechless too. What have these videos got to do with the topic, or are you putting them up to show how bad the sparring is?



They're relevant because the person who put up those vids also wrote the article.

And yes, the sparring is quite bad from both sides. Hopefully he visits a Bjj school soon so that he can scratch his itch.


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> They're relevant because the person who put up those vids also wrote the article.
> 
> And yes, the sparring is quite bad from both sides. Hopefully he visits a Bjj school soon so that he can scratch his itch.


Of course, he wouldn't have a chance there.


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## Jenna (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I wouldn't say it concerns me, as in I stay up at night thinking about it. It simply makes me curious if others share his opinion, and what is the root of his opinion.
> 
> For example, the author stated he felt guilty for enjoying MMA because it clashed with his Aikido teachings. Such devotion is almost religious/cult-like in nature, and pretty interesting from a psychological viewpoint.


I understand thank you for your reply.  Can you clarify for me, are you saying that you dislike his having an "almost religious" devotion to his art?  Jx


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I wonder why does this concern you whether your art or any art is validated in some other persons eyes?  Is it not most important what your own practice is to you rather than what the world thinks of it? Why is it important? Jx



I still feel it concerns everybody on the internet sharing opinions. Otherwise we all wouldn't be here in the first place.


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## Jenna (Mar 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I still feel it concerns everybody on the internet sharing opinions. Otherwise we all wouldn't be here in the first place.


You are asserting that it concerns everyone on the internet whether their art or anyone elses art is a "valid" art or not??

I am one person other peoples views of my art does not affect and I am on the internet.


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## Zero (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Ah, I realized the author is the guy who has done those weird Aikido videos that challenge other martial arts.
> 
> Anyone remember this?
> 
> ...


yes, quite terrible.  But in fairness to the guy, at least regarding the second video, it seemed the schools were simply interacting and he was trying his style against the karate students.  It seemed they were amicably taking turns at pretty light hearted "play" and not much more than that.  It was clear head shots were all but a no-no as he had his glasses on.

To be honest, from the few aikido clubs I have visited and trained at and what I have seen from the seniors, I was pretty (actually, very) disappointed with his own balance and abilities.  But I was even more disappointed with the karateka, if they truly had experience ranging from 8 - 14 years...one of the females seems to pretty much take herself out through her own imbalance on throwing a kick...maybe it was not karate but drunken boxing?  : )


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Ah, I realized the author is the guy who has done those weird Aikido videos that challenge other martial arts.
> 
> Here's his video where he beats up on some Karate kids;
> 
> ...



Are you speechless because for once it is not a BJJ or MMA video challenging other martial arts?


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Ah, I realized the author is the guy who has done those weird Aikido videos that challenge other martial arts.
> 
> Anyone remember this?
> 
> ...



Wouldn't sparring be against his dislike of the competitive aspect of martial arts.


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## Zero (Mar 13, 2015)

he's not really "challenging" or even purporting to challenge other styles is he, from his own statements, at least those I have seen, it seems he is doing this more to assert Aikido's own worth, rather to challenge others.  He seems to be doing this in a pretty relaxed, friendly manner in the spirit of sharing with other styles, these don't look like "challenge matches"...


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

Zero said:


> he's not really "challenging" or even purporting to challenge other styles is he, from his own statements, at least those I have seen, it seems he is doing this more to assert Aikido's own worth, rather to challenge others.  He seems to be doing this in a pretty relaxed, friendly manner in the spirit of sharing with other styles, these don't look like "challenge matches"...



Well, given his opinion of sport styles in the OP, I would say that it's not all that friendly.


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## Zero (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well, given his opinion of sport styles in the OP, I would say that it's not all that friendly.


Ok, so some of the surrounding "banter" may not be overly friendly but the actual "rolling" seemed pretty low intensity you would have to agree.


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Are you speechless because for once it is not a BJJ or MMA video challenging other martial arts?



I'm speechless because the technical proficiency on both sides was atrocious. I expect better technique at that level.


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## Buka (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Ah, I realized the author is the guy who has done those weird Aikido videos that challenge other martial arts.
> 
> Anyone remember this?
> 
> ...



Sparring and rolling seem to have a kinder, gentler aspect to them now. 

As for the vid against closed guard - IMO, that is an unrealistic, purposely motivated
example of showing something that is not so in actual use/real world. It might as well have been shot with an unconscious partner who had his cuffs clipped together with paper clips.

I wonder why he decided to shoot it that way? Maybe I wonder too much about these things.


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I understand thank you for your reply.  Can you clarify for me, are you saying that you dislike his having an "almost religious" devotion to his art?  Jx



It's not almost religious, it is religious. He speaks of enjoying MMA as if it's a sin he's committed against O'Sensei. He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is).

I give him credit for testing his Aikido though. Hopefully he goes the extra mile and fully cross trains in another style.


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## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> It's not almost religious, it is religious. He speaks of enjoying MMA as if it's a sin he's committed against O'Sensei. He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is).
> 
> I give him credit for testing his Aikido though. Hopefully he goes the extra mile and fully cross trains in another style.



What the heck are "MMA" arts?


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## Jenna (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> It's not almost religious, it is religious. He speaks of enjoying MMA as if it's a sin he's committed against O'Sensei. He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is).
> 
> I give him credit for testing his Aikido though. Hopefully he goes the extra mile and fully cross trains in another style.


Sounds fanatical I grant you.. just wondering is it his fanaticism or his anti-MMA position that irks you the more? Jx


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 13, 2015)

I give kudos to the guy for making the effort to test himself by doing some sparring with his karate friends, even if it was super-light, casual sparring.

That said, playing grappler vs striker with the striker not allowed to hit hard or even hit to the face* is just rigging the game in favor of the grappler too much to give him any kind of useful challenge or learning experience. All he had to do was walk forward and clinch. His sparring partners had no way to back him up. He didn't have to worry about distance control or proper timing on his entry because he wasn't worried about being hit. He also looked to be bigger than most of his sparring partners, which makes getting the takedown much easier.

If he wants to learn proper distance management and entry timing, then he should repeat the exercise, but allow his sparring partners to hit harder and punch to the head. (Or at least treat their strikes as if he respected them, instead of just walking up as if their strikes didn't exist.)

Judging from the sparring going on in the background, the school seems to be one where the sparring is mostly no-contact. He might get some better experience with sparring partners who are more used to contact.

*Wearing glasses while sparring? Really??


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Sounds fanatical I grant you.. just wondering is it his fanaticism or his anti-MMA position that irks you the more? Jx



Both irk me fairly equally.


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## Hanzou (Mar 13, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> What the heck are "MMA" arts?



The core styles that tend to make up MMA; Muay Thai, Bjj, and Wrestling.


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## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> The core styles that tend to make up MMA; Muay Thai, Bjj, and Wrestling.



Normal Martial Arts? I dont understand the point of giving them a separate label.

I mean youre basically saying "Mixed Martial Arts Arts"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> The MMA arena is great for testing those who are training to compete. It does nothing for the rest of us.



What's MMA? You develop some MA skill. You then test your skill against other styles with some safe rule set. How far that you want to test your personal skill is all up to you. It has nothing to do with what style that you may train.

There will be a Sumo tournament here next month. My guys have never done any Sumo before. This will be their 1st time to test their skill in that format. Different rule set can test different kind of skill/ability in your training. IMO, that's the fun part of the MA training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is).


A friend of mine when she did her Taiji form, her soul can separate away from her body, float in the sky, and look down on her own body. i assume that's spirit/soul enough.

Someone said that MA involves with 3 levels of training, the

- physical level,
- mental level,
- spiritual level.

After so many years of MA training, I'm still working on my "physical level". I have no interest/intention to get into the other 2 levels in the past. I don't think that I'll ever be in the future either.


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Someone said that MA involves with 3 levels of training, the
> 
> - physical level,
> - mental level,
> ...


You posted this quoting me?

_"He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is)."_

When did I say that?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> You posted this quoting me?
> 
> _"He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is)."_
> 
> When did I say that?





Hanzou said:


> He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is).



Sorry, I was quoting Hanzou instead.


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sorry, I was quoting Hanzou instead.


Mate, where I come from that is a capital offence.


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> No. Karate is a generic term like MMA. When people say they study karate that is all the average person understands. But within karate there are different styles that are standardised. If I do Goju karate and travel to another country and train there at a Goju school, I will find the same training as at home. If I go to a Shotokan school, the training will be different. There will be things in common but I won't be able to perform a lot of their training, for example kata and bunkai.
> 
> A similar divide applies to generic Aikido. There are differences across the different styles.


MMA is a sport.  Karate is a category of martial arts. 

MMA is evolving into a martial art on its own, but I don't think it's there yet.  The specific styles trained in order to compete in MMA are martial arts.  So, BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Karate (whatever style) and everything else are martial arts.  MMA is a sport.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Both irk me fairly equally.


Do you then understand why your own fanatical, anti-anything-that-isn't-mma position irks others?  Or did that escape you?

If you ever learn to give some respect, then you just might get some in return.


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## Mephisto (Mar 13, 2015)

Steve said:


> MMA is a sport.  Karate is a category of martial arts.
> 
> MMA is evolving into a martial art on its own, but I don't think it's there yet.  The specific styles trained in order to compete in MMA are martial arts.  So, BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Karate (whatever style) and everything else are martial arts.  MMA is a sport.


What I'm curious about is other sports like boxing or Muay Thai don't prohibit stylists from other sports from competing correct? Theoretically couldn't any art that abides by the boxing ruleset compete? It's hard to imagine anyone without knowledge of boxing as an art would be able to be competitive. It seems eventually a ruleset becomes it's own art, fighters learn the optimal bread and butter techniques to be competitive forming a core style for the sport. Mma may provide more room for variation though due to the more permissive rulset and combination of multiple specialty systems.


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## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> What I'm curious about is other sports like boxing or Muay Thai don't prohibit stylists from other sports from competing correct? Theoretically couldn't any art that abides by the boxing ruleset compete? It's hard to imagine anyone without knowledge of boxing as an art would be able to be competitive. It seems eventually a ruleset becomes it's own art, fighters learn the optimal bread and butter techniques to be competitive forming a core style for the sport. Mma may provide more room for variation though due to the more permissive rulset and combination of multiple specialty systems.



While not boxing, I know it's extremely common for TKD\Karate guys to compete in Kickboxing. Both American and International. A while ago there was a Korean Sport TKD guy who was highly ranked there and decided to compete in K1. He won his title bout, but I didn't really follow after that.

Because boxing is so refined as a punching art, it's hard to see non boxers competing well there. Whereas MMA, you could cross train in BJJ and a striking art and train with contact, and could perform. Probably won't be a champ, but you've got your bases covered.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Sounds fanatical I grant you.. just wondering is it his fanaticism or his anti-MMA position that irks you the more? Jx



Evangelists irk me. Ii must admit. Especially if the are using the platform that they are morally right because they ate morally  superior.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A friend of mine when she did her Taiji form, her soul can separate away from her body, float in the sky, and look down on her own body. i assume that's spirit/soul enough.
> 
> Someone said that MA involves with 3 levels of training, the
> 
> ...



I think you achieve a mental and spiritual level from the fighting aspect. Otherwise why would they be linked to martial arts in the first place.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Steve said:


> MMA is a sport.  Karate is a category of martial arts.
> 
> MMA is evolving into a martial art on its own, but I don't think it's there yet.  The specific styles trained in order to compete in MMA are martial arts.  So, BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Karate (whatever style) and everything else are martial arts.  MMA is a sport.



It is both. A sport and a martial art are just terms used to describe a thing. And not the thing itself.

You couldn't create a litmus test for martial arts that mma would not sneak into.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> What I'm curious about is other sports like boxing or Muay Thai don't prohibit stylists from other sports from competing correct? Theoretically couldn't any art that abides by the boxing ruleset compete? It's hard to imagine anyone without knowledge of boxing as an art would be able to be competitive. It seems eventually a ruleset becomes it's own art, fighters learn the optimal bread and butter techniques to be competitive forming a core style for the sport. Mma may provide more room for variation though due to the more permissive rulset and combination of multiple specialty systems.



Kick boxing was of course a mma of boxing karate and tkd.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 14, 2015)

Zero said:


> Hi!  I find two aspects of your post hard to follow ShotoNoob.  Firstly, so I understand what you mean by "traditional karate", from your previous posts I take it by this you mean karate equipped for and focusing on kumite, as in full contact, rather than just sport karate which is just point ("tippy tappy") karate with little real contact?  Is that correct?  If not please let me know what you mean by "traditional karate".


|
That's a very good way to put some of the failings of how certain karate practitioners practice karate.  You and many others here are looking at effect rather than cause.  Since I don't like Shotokan karate as a style, I do like Shotokan karate for illustrating traditional karate principles.  So short answer the way I would point you is to look at Gichin Funakosi and his disciples define the "Shotokan" karate.
|
BTW: There other posters holding fast to TMA principles that are too looking at cause rather than effect as I am.



Zero said:


> Secondly, it seems to be that you think aspects such as _*timing, distancing, balance, coordination, movement, reflexes* _has no place in traditional karate.  And that these aspects are simply the physical/athletic approach and again, do not measure up to traditional karate.  Is that what you are saying?


|
Ah, your opening sentence is putting words in my mouth.  I called a poster on that and got called myself.  So I'm a bit gun shy.  I am saying that physical training that produces athletic abilities _*including those named*/ is not how Gichin Funakoshi defines traditional karate.



Zero said:



			If so, can you please explain why these aspects and attributes do not apply to or have a place in either the training or application of traditional karate?
		
Click to expand...

|
Sorry, again, I think you are being a bit disingenuous here.  In fact, I had this very discussion with the Master I am working with and he came to agree that my perspective on such attributes was the correctly more sophisticate-ly accurate.  He did not frame the issue in the negative as you did.... that's why I am working with him and perhaps not some of the other seniors in my school.



Zero said:



			I am struggling to see how that could be?  Surely at some stage, no matter what level of focus you place on the "mental" side of training, to implement such you must engage the physical side of your body to perform these techniques?  Even your "air punching" of which you speak highly of requires physical expression of the mental elements.
		
Click to expand...

|
Well, I think I have been criticized when in fact we karateka are really working toward the same ultimate principles.  It's just a matter of understanding the right approach....
|
Here's what I tell students (or instructors) that are willing to take input.  Simply, IN TRADITIONAL KARATE, MENTAL DRIVES PHYSICAL.  Just as you state, the physical expresses the action, but it is the mental capability that powers that physical expression.  PERIOD.
|
On the "air punching," I've got to consult with the WEB guru's here on how to cash in on such a downgraded traditional karate practice.  Actually, I gleaned the true value of "air punching" from a sensei-level instructor who started in TKD, the moved on to cross-train in other TMAs.  That's why I, for one reason, I say don't downplay TKD until you really look into it's traditional curriculum.



Zero said:



			I thought it would then follow that if your physical expression of such does not contain and have an appreciation of balance, movement and coordination, the movements will be little more than a shambles.  And if you are seeking to apply these movements effectively against another person attacking you, surely reflexes, timing and distancing (and thus training in, studying and appreciating such) is crucial to ensuring your success?
		
Click to expand...

|
I appreciate the depth of the talent here, including the RBD members.  Yet the discussion continues to veer off course towards you having me say that the physical somehow not important....  It's not that what you say is not relevant, it's that it's not competent.  Where you say "reflexes," I say "KIME."  KIME is a qualitative term of traditional karate that Gichin Funakoshi (as well as Okinawan Masters hold the same or similar concept(s), as well as TKD, as well as other styles of Japanese karate, as well as the Japanese Jujitsu's, etc.
|
It's not that the Okinawan Karate's emphasize "JUTSU," ie. rough tough fighters; and the Japanese karate's emphasize "DO,"  where the latter ultimately some degenerate into "tippy tappy" karate flower children.  It's what drives "DO" that powers "JUTSU."  the mind....  That's the huge divide over sport-based fighting._


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 14, 2015)

_


ShotoNoob said:



			It's not that the Okinawan Karate's emphasize "JUTSU," ie. rough tough fighters; and the Japanese karate's emphasize "DO,"  where the latter ultimately some degenerate into "tippy tappy" karate flower children.  It's what drives "DO" that powers "JUTSU."  the mind....  That's the huge divide over sport-based fighting.
		
Click to expand...

_|
I'm so brilliant, I'll quote myself.  Why I'm tongue-in-cheek is that I got beat up here for saying I don't need a corner man.  Here's a perfect example of what I'm driving at.  It's an MMA scenario that was a UFC YT vid.  Basically a fight recap.  A physically smaller opponent is getting beat up pretty bad by a larger, more aggressive opponent.  Both are of course the same broad weight class.
|
Buzzer sounds to end the round.  Smaller opponent heads back to corner, at a loss.  Corner man / Coach supportive-ly counsels smaller opponent, "Hey, you're getting killed in there!  You've got to be more aggressive.  You've got to focus.  Hit him and hit hard.  Now go in there and knock him out...  you can do it!  Go for the KO!
|
Smaller opponent goes back in.  Bigger opponent dominates and shortly smaller opponent gets KO'd.
|
The KIME has to be in you.  The expression of KIME can only come from you.  KIME can't come from a corner man.  Either you have sufficient KIME to defeat the physically overwhelming opponent or you don't.  The Japanese karate-do base gives you KIME.  the Okinawan karate-jutsu gives you KIME.  Traditional TKD gives you KIME.
|
MMA gives you reflexes.  KIME beats reflexes once KIME is sufficiently developed.  Is it a guarantee, NO.  Nothing is guaranteed.  You the karateka must develop the KIME inside to make it happen.  It's up to you.


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## Jenna (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Evangelists irk me. Ii must admit. Especially if the are using the platform that they are morally right because they ate morally  superior.


What is your opinion on WHY anyone bothers to evangelise about their art? What is it I wonder that makes someone an evangelist in this sense do you think? Jx


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> What is your opinion on WHY anyone bothers to evangelise about their art? What is it I wonder that makes someone an evangelist in this sense do you think? Jx



one aspect i am mulling over is dogmatic training leading to dogmatic thinking.

In pretty much the same way religious belief can tip over.


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## Jenna (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> one aspect i am mulling over is dogmatic training leading to dogmatic thinking.
> 
> In pretty much the same way religious belief can tip over.


dogmatic thinking is one thing yes though what is it do you suggest that makes a martial artist who thinks dogmatically become sanctimonious and evangelistic about their art with others who are not of their artistic persuasion? Jx


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> dogmatic thinking is one thing yes though what is it do you suggest that makes a martial artist who thinks dogmatically become sanctimonious and evangelistic about their art with others who are not of their artistic persuasion? Jx



That's easy. They discover truth rather than doubt. We all really want this stuff to work. I want it to work. So we add this belief in a system that just keeps validating itself. Eventually we accept a new truth. And if we know the truth then they cant.

Then they are wrong and we have to fix them.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That's easy. They discover truth rather than doubt. We all really want this stuff to work. I want it to work. So we add this belief in a system that just keeps validating itself. Eventually we accept a new truth. And if we know the truth then they cant.
> 
> Then they are wrong and we have to fix them.



Yep. Knowing the "truth" is comforting. Doubt is scary.

I wrote some of my thoughts on the subject on my blog a while back.


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## Danny T (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That's easy. They discover truth rather than doubt. We all really want this stuff to work. I want it to work. So we add this belief in a system that just keeps validating itself. Eventually we accept a new truth. And if we know the truth then they cant.
> 
> Then they are wrong and we have to fix them.


They discover truth through blind or manipulated acceptance rather than through questioning and testing against other truths.


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## Jenna (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That's easy. They discover truth rather than doubt. We all really want this stuff to work. I want it to work. So we add this belief in a system that just keeps validating itself. Eventually we accept a new truth. And if we know the truth then they cant.
> 
> Then they are wrong and we have to fix them.


I think I understand this yes.. and so taking it back to the original post.. what do you think is this *truth* as regards MMA and similar arts not being "true" martial arts? Jx


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I think I understand this yes.. and so taking it back to the original post.. what do you think is this *truth* as regards MMA and similar arts not being "true" martial arts? Jx



not to get so hung up on labels.


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## Hanzou (Mar 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I think I understand this yes.. and so taking it back to the original post.. what do you think is this *truth* as regards MMA and similar arts not being "true" martial arts? Jx



They are true martial arts. The problem is that arts that can't compete with those arts in terms of fighting ability have to separate themselves in order to remain viable in the modern age. MMA and NHB competitions are merely modern incarnations of tournament fights that have been going on for centuries in various countries, and traditional MAs of all types freely participated in them. So saying that "sport" MAs aren't true MAs is nonsense.


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## Hanzou (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Normal Martial Arts? I dont understand the point of giving them a separate label.
> 
> I mean youre basically saying "Mixed Martial Arts Arts"



Again, the arts that commonly make up of MMA training, or the arts most associated with MMA training. I fail to see how that is at all confusing.


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## Drose427 (Mar 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Again, the arts that commonly make up of MMA training, or the arts most associated with MMA training. I fail to see how that is at all confusing.




I'm not confused

It's just a  redundant and pointless label


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> The problem is that arts that can't compete with those arts in terms of fighting ability have to separate themselves in order to remain viable in the modern age.


Evangelize much?  Naw, not you...


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## Hanzou (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I'm not confused
> 
> It's just a  redundant and pointless label



It's not redundant.

There's arts commonly found in MMA, and there's arts not commonly found in MMA. Aikido for example isn't suitable for MMA for whatever reason. Thus Aikido isn't a "MMA art" or "MMA style".


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## Drose427 (Mar 14, 2015)

Aikido is a MARTIAL ART. 

All MMA is is cross training whatever Martial Arts, in an environment where that's needed.

MMA is the ruleset

Again youre really saying "Mixed Martial Arts Art" and that's insanely redundant.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Again youre really saying "Mixed Martial Arts Art" and that's insanely redundant.


I've got a comment I'll make about this in a moment, but I'm in line at the ATM machine and I'm trying to remember my PIN number.


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## Drose427 (Mar 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've got a comment I'll make about this in a moment, but I'm in line at the ATM machine and I'm trying to remember my PIN number.



There's not "touche" button....but touchè


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. Knowing the "truth" is comforting. Doubt is scary.
> 
> I wrote some of my thoughts on the subject on my blog a while back.


|
Do you have any 'doubts' about Machida in his upcoming bout against Rockhold this October?  Since the T is on MMA, let's look to an actual contest.



Danny T said:


> They discover truth through blind or manipulated acceptance rather than through questioning and testing against other truths.


|
Any opinion on the Machida / Rockhold match scheduled for UFC Fox 15 @ April 18?  We haven't heard much from Dolloway since Machida starched him.  OTOH, Machida seems to have bounced back nicely from the 5-Round beating he took from Weidman @ UFC 175.
|
I religiously follow Machida's every fight....  Maybe a T on this....


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I think I understand this yes.. and so taking it back to the original post.. what do you think is this *truth* as regards MMA and similar arts not being "true" martial arts? Jx



That there isn't a truth.


probably.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Aikido is a MARTIAL ART.
> 
> All MMA is is cross training whatever Martial Arts, in an environment where that's needed.
> 
> ...



All you actually have to do with language is evoke an idea. It doesn't have to be technically correct.

I have a coach who refers to those art,arts as drills.

"bjj yeah that is a really good drill for mma" 

And then we all giggle.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 14, 2015)

the name in and of itself "Mixed Martial Arts" answers the question. It says ARTS not art thus it is more than one art


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> the name in and of itself "Mixed Martial Arts" answers the question. It says ARTS not art thus it is more than one art



And yet I can go to a school and learn mma without doing a separate art.


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## Drose427 (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And yet I can go to a school and learn mma without doing a separate art.



Not true,  gyms teach kikcboxing/Muay Thai and BJJ/ Wrestling.

On the flipside, I can train in BJJ with my root style of TSD, train with contact and intensity and perform fairly well in MMA.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Not true,  gyms teach kikcboxing/Muay Thai and BJJ/ Wrestling.
> 
> On the flipside, I can train in BJJ with my root style of TSD, train with contact and intensity and perform fairly well in MMA.


Actually, many gyms do have regular MMA classes that you can take without studying the individual arts separately.


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## Danny T (Mar 15, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually, many gyms do have regular MMA classes that you can take without studying the individual arts separately.


Yep
Know of several just MMA gyms. They teach some muay thai kicking, some boxing, some wrestling and some bjj. Not full curriculums just some aspects of them.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Not true,  gyms teach kikcboxing/Muay Thai and BJJ/ Wrestling.
> 
> On the flipside, I can train in BJJ with my root style of TSD, train with contact and intensity and perform fairly well in MMA.



Greg Jackson gives out belts in mma.


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## Jenna (Mar 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That there isn't a truth.
> 
> 
> probably.


I think there is a truth regarding "true" martial arts and but it is not by any means an immutable truth.. 

I mean like a new art is created.. the orthodoxy derides it as heretical.. perhaps if it sticks around and proves itself a useful system it is accepted and assimilated as part of that very MA orthodoxy (and then it in turn can criticise some subsequent new art that comes after it!!) Jx


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 15, 2015)

_"*Martial arts* are codified systems and traditions of combat practices, which are practiced for a variety of reasons: self-defense, competition, physical health and fitness, entertainment, as well as mental, physical, and spiritual development."_

Going by this simple cut-and-dry definition (c/o Wikipedia), MMA and similar arts (others like the Keysi Fighting Method, Krav Maga, Systema and Sambo, all hybrid schools close to my heart) would be classified as martial arts. While "MMA" may be an umbrella term for "a little bit of everything from other arts", in past years it has become somewhat codified (in terms of what works in the sport and what hasn't thus far) and tradition can certainly be singled out from its brief but immensely rich history as a competitive sport.

There are an endless number of reasons why people take up MA's. "Spiritual Development", while prominent in JMA's and CMA's, are not an absolute prerequisite for the practice of MA's in general. I initially took up Judo for health reasons and for my personal development. I remember attending those Russian Systema and Krav Maga seminars because at the time I was genuinely interested in Self-Defense following a bad experience I had with a significant other. Now I'm taking up Sambo because I find it and MMA highly therapeutic, and I like the feeling of hitting someone in the face, especially after they've hit me.


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## Drose427 (Mar 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Greg Jackson gives out belts in mma.



And odds are everything he teaches comes from kickboxing and BJJ...many times it's not even changed fromain the original style the tech is from.

I have nothing against MMA, but I consider it a ruleset, not a Martial Art. You can cross train in a striking art and grappling art at schools completely unrelated to MMA, train with proper intensity and contact, learn the rules, and step into the cage and perform competitively. 

The only thing you won't get that way is working the cage, which is fairly intuitive.

for nearly every other martial art, you can't do that. 

A karate will almost never out box a boxer because of the boxers refinement of punching techniques

A boxer or Muay Thai guy, can't just transition into sport TKD, the rules and meta game are insanely different. While possiblr, it requires a lot of tweaking.

I can't consider something it's own MA when you can get nearly everything from it, with the exact same technique, from cross training 2 martial arts. 

All martial arts took from something else but they changed things a good bit based on their opinion and methods. MMA doesn't do that, they use the exact same technique from whatever root styles their gym uses

In the cage, If I throw a distinct TKD punching/kicking combo, I'm doing TKD at that moment. If I use a MT clinch to throw MT knees while working for a takedown, at that moment I'm doing MT. If I submit my opponent with an omoplata, at that moment I'm doing BJJ. 

That's the beauty of MMA. But all these things are moves from other martial arts, not from MMA. They're simply used in MMA competitions


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## Buka (Mar 15, 2015)

Using the idea of the old Supreme Court quote - "I know it when I see it"....

I've seen MMA. That's Martial Arts. Not all of it, obviously, but it sure as hell ain't baseball.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> ...A _ [edit]* a typical sport *[edit]_ karate will almost never out box a boxer because of the boxers refinement of punching techniques....
> 
> On the definition of martial art, I'm with BUKA........





Buka said:


> Using the idea of the old Supreme Court quote - "I know it when I see it"....
> 
> I've seen MMA. That's Martial Arts. Not all of it, obviously, but it sure as hell ain't baseball.


|
I would even delete your last sentence if you are referring the professionally sanctioned MMA such as the UFC.


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## Drose427 (Mar 15, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I would even delete your last sentence if you are referring the professionally sanctioned MMA such as the UFC.



Well its still a martial arts competition.......that was never my point.... but I don't consider it it's own, standalone, martial art


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Well its still a martial arts competition.......that was never my point.... but I don't consider it it's own, standalone, martial art


|
I get it.  I see you have cross-trained boxing with your TSD-TKD.  We have a 1st degree black-belt at our school who does the same.  He has cleaned up in local tournaments.  Yet interestingly enough, he says his karate will eclipse boxing at some point.
|
I didn't answer but said to myself (traditional karate eclipses boxing now).
|
Putting the thoughts from other forum posts together, I suppose you would take the position that Wado-ryu is not a legitimate traditional martial art?  And what about the grappling self-defense moves I've seen in some of the Korean karate styles?  Mixed or not?


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## Drose427 (Mar 15, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I get it.  I see you have cross-trained boxing with your TSD-TKD.  We have a 1st degree black-belt at our school who does the same.  He has cleaned up in local tournaments.  Yet interestingly enough, he says his karate will eclipse boxing at some point.
> |
> I didn't answer but said to myself (traditional karate eclipses boxing now).
> ...



Other TMAS are typically different. As I said in another post, the founders change techs based on their own reasons and methods. Our TSD comes from Okinawa karate, but the technique of some of our kicks is different, as well as stances, forms, etc. We have different methodologies.

In MMA, it's easy to point out what MA a fighter is using because the technique is rarely changed. Even from more of a staggered stance, a high knee raise chambered round house is still TKD or Karate and not Muay Thai. On the flipside, you can see very blatant Muay Thai kicks.

As I told drop bear, I can't consider something it's own Martial Art when someone can perform competitively , can get all the tools to do so, without ever training in an MMA gym.

Our self defense grappling comes from Hapkido\Okinawa Karate. While yes,  our grappling isn't much different from our root styles, many of our forms and striking techs are. 

You can't train in Kung fu or MMA, and walk into class and immediately understand what's going on With our forms, SD drills, language/History, Etc. Trying to compete in Kukki-TKD with MMA training or kung fu as your base won't work well either, even we as TSD has difficulty using their combos because of a difference in technique. 

But MMA doesn't have specific techs or ways of doing anything. If you cross train with contact and intensity, you can perform competitively in MMA.

MMA is a rules to foster crosstraining  and bringing TMAS together, when it has almost nothing to itself, and nearly every tech will be blatantly from a different style,  I can't consider MMA it's own, Standalone martial art


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> As I told drop bear, I can't consider something it's own Martial Art when someone can perform competitively , can get all the tools to do so, without ever training in an MMA gym.
> 
> Our self defense grappling comes from Hapkido\Okinawa Karate. While yes,  our grappling isn't much different from our root styles, many of our forms and striking techs are.


|
I really agree, it's somewhat semantics.  What you call 'martial' arts, I call  'traditional martial' arts.   Your descriptions are all on point and you come across as a very knowledgeable instructor....


Drose427 said:


> But MMA doesn't have specific techs or ways of doing anything. If you cross train with contact and intensity, you can perform competitively in MMA.


|
Again, although boxing & wrestling are technically sports, they definitely qualify in my mind for martial arts because they are applicable for fighting, competitions which embody fighting activity,  Are they the traditional base extending back to Okinawa as does your TSD-TKD.  Most certainly boxing & wresting and the way most MT & BJJ is practiced---NOOOO. 
|
 That's my view as a traditional karateka....


Drose427 said:


> MMA is a rules to foster crosstraining  and bringing TMAS together, when it has almost nothing to itself, and nearly every tech will be blatantly from a different style,  I can't consider MMA it's own, Standalone martial art


|
Yeah, but the founders of TSD & TKD had to do essentially the same thing starting out.  I think it's the MMA marketing hype element that drives that somehow if I add boxing + wrestling I get a more complete fighter.  Just as you set out, how people practice for WTF competition does not define how effective your style is in actual fighting.  MMA perception vs. TMA reality...


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> You can't train in Kung fu or MMA, and walk into class and immediately understand what's going on With our forms, SD drills, language/History, Etc. Trying to compete in Kukki-TKD with MMA training or kung fu as your base won't work well either, even we as TSD has difficulty using their combos because of a difference in technique.


|
Ah, in precise physical form correct.  However IMO, the kung fu base has the same overall principles and is much stronger and much, much more sophisticated than TSD-TKD............. 



Drose427 said:


> But MMA doesn't have specific techs or ways of doing anything. If you cross train with contact and intensity, you can perform competitively in MMA.


|
Such a great post I can't stop.  You should definately hang out a shingle for TMA fighters who want to excel in MMA..  Hands down, IMO.
|
 What I differ on, want to point out, is take out Ronda Rousey's judo / grappling game, and she's a strong boxer.  Uses fundamental boxing form, boxing training, boxing focus pad, bag work, etc.  So specifically as a MMA STRIKER, RR is a BOXING stylist.  She spars her butt off like boxers.



Drose427 said:


> MMA is a rules to foster crosstraining  and bringing TMAS together, when it has almost nothing to itself, and nearly every tech will be blatantly from a different style,  I can't consider MMA it's own, Standalone martial art


|
Traditional karate has rules.  Ours for sparring is light contact to body, no contact for head.  No kicks below belt.  No grappling or takedowns in competitive sparring.


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## Buka (Mar 15, 2015)

We all have varying opinions and backgrounds on what words/terms mean what. But, to me, if somebody is in a gym training to punch, kick, grapple etc, at the very least, they're training in Martial fighting. I call it Martial Arts, not as a definitive term, just because that's what I call it. Hopefully, they're learning things other than fighting as well.

And therein lies the rub.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

Buka said:


> We all have varying opinions and backgrounds on what words/terms mean what. But, to me, if somebody is in a gym training to punch, kick, grapple etc, at the very least, they're training in Martial fighting. I call it Martial Arts, not as a definitive term, just because that's what I call it. Hopefully, they're learning things other than fighting as well.
> 
> And therein lies the rub.


|
Right, ostensibly they are learning martial skills, to fight.  How you actually express that skill is ART.  Your art.


----------



## K-man (Mar 15, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Putting the thoughts from other forum posts together, I suppose you would take the position that Wado-ryu is not a legitimate traditional martial art?  And what about the grappling self-defense moves I've seen in some of the Korean karate styles?  Mixed or not?


Depends on definition. Wado Ryu is recently developed but it is recognised as traditional because it is trained exactly as it's founder trained it.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 15, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Right, ostensibly they are learning martial skills, to fight.  How you actually express that skill is ART.  Your art.


I disagree completely. It has nothing to do with artistic expression.  Martial art is an English term, used as a translation for various Asian terms.  The Asian terms do not indicate the notion of artistic expression.  The English term "martial arts" would be better termed martial methods or systems.  Leave
The term "art" out of it completely.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

K-man said:


> Depends on definition. Wado Ryu is recently developed but it is recognised as traditional because it is trained exactly as it's founder trained it.


|
Was a thought question....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I disagree completely. It has nothing to do with artistic expression.  Martial art is an English term, used as a translation for various Asian terms.  The Asian terms do not indicate the notion of artistic expression.  The English term "martial arts" would be better termed martial methods or systems.  Leave
> The term "art" out of it completely.


|
In your English class I get an "F."  At my current school I started with a "F" according to the assistant head instructor.  6 months later I was awarded a scholarship to train free.


----------



## geezer (Mar 15, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I disagree completely. It has nothing to do with artistic expression.  Martial art is an English term, used as a translation for various Asian terms.  The Asian terms do not indicate the notion of artistic expression.  The English term "martial arts" would be better termed martial methods or systems.  Leave
> The term "art" out of it completely.



"Art" in English can also refer to a highly refined skill, as in the "artistry of a master craftsman". In this sense it closely parallels some of the Asian terms for martial art.

I for example practice _Ving Tsun kuen fat _(quan fa) a Southern Chinese branch of _mo sut _(wushu) more commonly referred to by the modern Cantonese term _gung fu --_which most people know literally translates as "hard work" and refers to the _mastery_ that results from that hard work.

When a master potter quickly and effortlessly manipulates the clay into an elegant vase, he reveals his _kung fu._ His art. Even if he is just making pickle jars. And it is individual. If two master potters each make ten identical jars --same height, width, form, and weight of clay-- they can look at them and identify their own pots. There will be subtle differences, hidden to the casual viewer but as obvious to the potter as a signature. So even thought he throws according to cannon, to height, width, and weight, his kung fu, his art,_ his individuality_ will still be evident to the trained eye. It's the mark of the maker that separates art, which is _unique _to the individual, from science which by definition must be _replicable_.

In this sense all the greatest martial masters from Miyamoto Musashi to Muhammed Ali are _artists_, not technicians my book!


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## Zero (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I'm so brilliant, I'll quote myself.  Why I'm tongue-in-cheek is that I got beat up here for saying I don't need a corner man.  Here's a perfect example of what I'm driving at.  It's an MMA scenario that was a UFC YT vid.  Basically a fight recap.  A physically smaller opponent is getting beat up pretty bad by a larger, more aggressive opponent.  Both are of course the same broad weight class.
> |
> Buzzer sounds to end the round.  Smaller opponent heads back to corner, at a loss.  Corner man / Coach supportive-ly counsels smaller opponent, "Hey, you're getting killed in there!  You've got to be more aggressive.  You've got to focus.  Hit him and hit hard.  Now go in there and knock him out...  you can do it!  Go for the KO!
> ...


Hey, look you certainly didn't get "beat up" on for your corner-man related statement.  Sure, I think I was even the first to call you on that.  But it is simply me stating my opinion, from my experience, on what you are stating as how you see things.  Most folks on this site are pretty open minded and will initially investigate something further if what they hear doesn't stack up with what they have experienced.  I just happen to disagree with you as to the value of a corner man in the sporting/ring environment or the "corner-man" (mentor) in the real world, non-ring environment.  But that's fine, it can be good to disagree and test each other's position - sometimes a great thing happens in debate and you actually realise that what you had whole-heartedly understood to be correct (or had bought into as your teacher's gospel teachings), is actually in correct, or that someone else's approach is better.

That in my view is only a good thing - if you are open-minded enough to accept that.


----------



## Zero (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I'm so brilliant, I'll quote myself.  Why I'm tongue-in-cheek is that I got beat up here for saying I don't need a corner man.  Here's a perfect example of what I'm driving at.  It's an MMA scenario that was a UFC YT vid.  Basically a fight recap.  A physically smaller opponent is getting beat up pretty bad by a larger, more aggressive opponent.  Both are of course the same broad weight class.
> |
> Buzzer sounds to end the round.  Smaller opponent heads back to corner, at a loss.  Corner man / Coach supportive-ly counsels smaller opponent, "Hey, you're getting killed in there!  You've got to be more aggressive.  You've got to focus.  Hit him and hit hard.  Now go in there and knock him out...  you can do it!  Go for the KO!
> ...


Ok, here for the record, the above is not an example of a great corner-man at all and not what I have personally experienced - but I have seen plenty of poor ring advice given out when watching fights so I will grant you that.
A good corner-man in the above situation would be saying along the lines of, "Stay out of the corners, move off-line, hit-and-move, hit-and-move, make hi m chase you, tire him out, etc, etc"
They are not often going to say, "you are getting pummelled by a giant, so go head-to-head".    : )


----------



## Zero (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> That's a very good way to put some of the failings of how certain karate practitioners practice karate.  You and many others here are looking at effect rather than cause.  Since I don't like Shotokan karate as a style, I do like Shotokan karate for illustrating traditional karate principles.  So short answer the way I would point you is to look at Gichin Funakosi and his disciples define the "Shotokan" karate.
> |
> BTW: There other posters holding fast to TMA principles that are too looking at cause rather than effect as I am.


Thanks for all your answers.

I agree, that effect is everything, as long as the "cause" is not over time leading to a bigger problem.  For example, you can throw a high kick powerfully in several ways to KO an opponent with, but some ways of throwing a high kick are biomechanically more optimal than others and less likely to lead to injury of self.  I have seen some pretty bad, wild throwing of techniques that over time can lead to wear or tear or simply leave you more open to counter-attack.

Thus while "effect" in a fight is key, the "cause" you choose to result in that effect, can be just as important.  Do you follow / agree?



ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Ah, your opening sentence is putting words in my mouth.  I called a poster on that and got called myself.  So I'm a bit gun shy.  I am saying that physical training that produces athletic abilities _*including those named*/ is not how Gichin Funakoshi defines traditional karate._



No, I was not putting words in your mouth at all.  It was absolutely phrased as a question. I asked you "is this what you are saying" to determine what it is you meant.  I did not say "this is what you are saying". Different and not the same.  But your above explanation is very helpful and now I think I have a clearer understanding of what you meant.
_


_

_


ShotoNoob said:



			Sorry, again, I think you are being a bit disingenuous here.  In fact, I had this very discussion with the Master I am working with and he came to agree that my perspective on such attributes was the correctly more sophisticate-ly accurate.  He did not frame the issue in the negative as you did.... that's why I am working with him and perhaps not some of the other seniors in my school.
		
Click to expand...

_So from this statement and your one directly above this, do I take it that you see it as follows:
1. physical drills or specific athletic training (but not the practice of actual karate), that results in better timing, cadence, distance understanding etc, while useful, is not the "traditional approach"?

2. mental training, consideration and focus which results in better timing, fight strategy and ability is the traditional way?

3.  the physical training and application of karate technique, be it kata or actual individual techniques repeated that results in these attributes...not sure, are you saying this is also the traditional approach or not?  Is it only the mental application and focus?

_


ShotoNoob said:



			I appreciate the depth of the talent here, including the RBD members.  Yet the discussion continues to veer off course towards you having me say that the physical somehow not important....  It's not that what you say is not relevant, it's that it's not competent.  Where you say "reflexes," I say "KIME."  KIME is a qualitative term of traditional karate that Gichin Funakoshi (as well as Okinawan Masters hold the same or similar concept(s), as well as TKD, as well as other styles of Japanese karate, as well as the Japanese Jujitsu's, etc.
|
It's not that the Okinawan Karate's emphasize "JUTSU," ie. rough tough fighters; and the Japanese karate's emphasize "DO,"  where the latter ultimately some degenerate into "tippy tappy" karate flower children.  It's what drives "DO" that powers "JUTSU."  the mind....  That's the huge divide over sport-based fighting.
		
Click to expand...

_From my years of judo and then about 15 years in Okinawan goju ryu, I have a pretty good grasp on kime - at least to the extent my senseis have imparted on me and from my own research and thoughts on the matter.  Similar concepts also abound in Chinese martial arts and martial philosophy which I have studied.
I need to think more however, if what you are saying is that the difference between what you see in clicker/sport karate and traditional karate is a result of the mental approach to the application of the style?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> And odds are everything he teaches comes from kickboxing and BJJ...many times it's not even changed fromain the original style the tech is from.
> 
> I have nothing against MMA, but I consider it a ruleset, not a Martial Art. You can cross train in a striking art and grappling art at schools completely unrelated to MMA, train with proper intensity and contact, learn the rules, and step into the cage and perform competitively.
> 
> ...



You have mma the competition and mma the art. Two different things.

I could potentially compete in an art I have never trained. And use mma to the limits of their rule set.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Zero said:


> Thanks for all your answers.
> 
> I agree, that effect is everything, as long as the "cause" is not over time leading to a bigger problem.  For example, you can throw a high kick powerfully in several ways to KO an opponent with, but some ways of throwing a high kick are biomechanically more optimal than others and less likely to lead to injury of self.  I have seen some pretty bad, wild throwing of techniques that over time can lead to wear or tear or simply leave you more open to counter-attack.
> 
> Thus while "effect" in a fight is key, the "cause" you choose to result in that effect, can be just as important.  Do you follow / agree?


Yes in general as well as with you example regarding physical form that is done in a correct, not-harmful way.  In terms of counterattack, there's  where proper tactics come into play as well.  There a design based on principles.  The choice of actual application is up to the individual practitioner.  But again, this exactly where your kind of  council comes in....



Zero said:


> Thanks for all your answers.No, I was not putting words in your mouth at all.  It was absolutely phrased as a question. I asked you "is this what you are saying" to determine what it is you meant.  I did not say "this is what you are saying". Different and not the same.  But your above explanation is very helpful and now I think I have a clearer understanding of what you meant.


|
And there should be more in class discussion on these topics we are going over through the forum.
_


_




Zero said:


> Thanks for all your answers.So from this statement and your one directly above this, do I take it that you see it as follows:
> 1. physical drills or specific athletic training (but not the practice of actual karate), that results in better timing, cadence, distance understanding etc, while useful, is not the "traditional approach"?


|
YES.  In traditional karate, IMO, it starts out physical, conditioning, learning basic postures, techniques, the curriculum.  Then more & more & more it phases into a mental discipline, where the thinking mind is dominant, and the physical an expression of the mental intent.  The Shotokan curriculum goes into detail much more on this than does my curriculum.  I'm not a fan of Shotokan as a style, but Funakoshi made plain certain critical precepts about traditional karate being mental....   Requires a bit of serious study though.
|
Incidentally the physical qualities you spelled out can and are learned through merely the physical activity in Shotokan.  The bio-mechanic theory is difference in some regards than say boxing or MT or say BJJ, wrestling.  But I want to stress that training Shotokan as a physical activity alone can produce these benefits.  Here is where much of the debate comes from boxers or BJJ artists saying that there method is more natural and more practical and faster to develop.
|
What the latter miss is the real message in all that rigorous Shotokan attention to bio-mechanical control is the mental control that grows out of that training.  Including such traits as the "mental clarity" discussed @ the state of mind T.  Often that gets lost in the heavy physicality & aggression inherent in the Shotokan style....



Zero said:


> Thanks for all your answers.2. mental training, consideration and focus which results in better timing, fight strategy and ability is the traditional way?
> 
> 3.  the physical training and application of karate technique, be it kata or actual individual techniques repeated that results in these attributes...not sure, are you saying this is also the traditional approach or not?  Is it only the mental application and focus?


|
This is what kata critiques miss.  Kata is the consummate traditional karate exercise.  It's kata that takes "mental clarity, " etc. to it's highest level.  However in fact, the mental component is the underlying driver in all components of the traditional karate curriculum: Kihon, Kata, Kumite.  Karate can be practiced as a physical art, the Master's intended it to be a mental discipline.  That's where the real strength in Karate's effectiveness comes from.



Zero said:


> From my years of judo and then about 15 years in Okinawan goju ryu, I have a pretty good grasp on kime - at least to the extent my senseis have imparted on me and from my own research and thoughts on the matter.  Similar concepts also abound in Chinese martial arts and martial philosophy which I have studied.
> I need to think more however, if what you are saying is that the difference between what you see in clicker/sport karate and traditional karate is a result of the mental approach to the application of the style?


|
Think of it as a spectrum.  On the one end you have say boxing.  These guys really can physically condition.  They hone their craft with punching drills, the heavy bag, practice making their reactions and technique faster & faster.  It's what I refer to as muscle memory like a basketball player who does layups without thinking hard.  This group, as in MMA is also very reliant on actual sparring to develop the physical reaction times & ingrained responses.
|
In the middle you have sport karate, a mixture but largely the same as boxers yet hopefully better KIME.
|
On the other end you have traditional karate (a subset of TMA).  Here you have true mind & body union, with the mind totally in control at all times. Your "mental clarity functions like a radar, directing and redirecting your conscious response (not subconscious / reflex  reaction) to each and move in turn made by your opponent.  The traditional karateka never outfights the opponent, he out-thinks the opponent.  This is the central lesson of Gichin Funakoshi translated into the Japanese karate.  Of course Gichin Funakoshi got the concept from the Okinawans.  Who got it from the Chinese.  That's my opinion....

Oh, and here sparring is much less important.  Because the "mental clarity" skill and hence mind-body union come from within.  It's an internal process.  That's why I said I need no corner man.  I am my "own corner man."


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You have mma the competition and mma the art. Two different things.
> 
> I could potentially compete in an art I have never trained. And use mma to the limits of their rule set.



I don't consider MMA an art.

Again, your MMA most likely comes from whatever outside competition you try to compete it. It isn't anything specific to MMA, it's all picture perfect techs from other styles and systems.

But even this this isn't really true. A Muay Thai guy wouldn't perform well at all in sport tkd, the technique is vastly different, combos, how they fight in general, etc. He'd have to learn some TKD. A boxer won't win a Naga Championship Without learning BJJ.

Even though a Muay Thai guy could potentially perform well in point sparring at Karate tournaments, we wouldn't do well in forms or weapons Unless he's learns them both.

MMA hasn't changed anything technique wise, they're still very distinct moves from the respective styles. Other than the competitive ruleset, there is nothing that sets it apart From its root style.

All other martial arts changed from their parent styles, be it in techniques, methods, etc. our TSD front kick is different than many Karate front kicks. As are our stances, forms, etc. But my style comes very obviously from karate.

The difference from MMA, is that we  only look SIMILAR, in MMA it's an EXACT technique.

I  simply cannot consider it it's own Art when every technique fighters use is very blatantly from another art.

You can't train in Muay Thai\Wrestling. for 5 years and become a Black belt in shotokan. But you can train in shotokan and BJJ for 5 years and perform well in MMA.


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## Transk53 (Mar 17, 2015)

No idea myself, so I am going to take a look. Sussex Uni has a school, or whatever applicable term, that runs term only I think, but you do not have to be a student to join in. Clicky below for any thoughts.

Integrated Martial Arts Club Martial Arts ... Sussex sport University of Sussex


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I don't consider MMA an art.
> 
> Again, your MMA most likely comes from whatever outside competition you try to compete it. It isn't anything specific to MMA, it's all picture perfect techs from other styles and systems.
> 
> ...



Mma has fundamentally changed from their parent styles. But it is hard to spot. But regardless changing the combination off moves defines a style as well.

I will post a video of a mma friend of mine and you can work out what style his stance came from.


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## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Mma has fundamentally changed from their parent styles. But it is hard to spot. But regardless changing the combination off moves defines a style as well.
> 
> I will post a video of a mma friend of mine and you can work out what style his stance came from.



Stance is the only real change I've ever seen.

Simply because a pure MT or Boxing stance is awful in mMMA because of the grappling.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Zero said:


> Ok, here for the record, the above is not an example of a great corner-man at all and not what I have personally experienced - but I have seen plenty of poor ring advice given out when watching fights so I will grant you that.
> A good corner-man in the above situation would be saying along the lines of, *"Stay out of the corners, move off-line, hit-and-move, hit-and-move, make hi m chase you, tire him out, etc, etc"*|
> 
> They are not often going to say, "you are getting pummelled by a giant, so go head-to-head".    : )


|
Well I don't need a corner man so that's one reason my answer about them was so poor.. Was being rhetorical, ya got me.
|
The bolded portion, though, does highlight what I am driving at.  I could care less if I'm in a corner or in the center.  Because I change as the situation changes, always with a PRINCIPLED response.  Ippon Kumite taught to white belts teaches you to move off-line.  Traditional karate, for success, DEMANDS you take that into the fight.  You don't forget it once you move from ippon kumite to jiyu kumitie.  You must carry the principles over.... no exceptions.  This is what I mean about MENTAL DISCIPLINE.
|
Hit & move is good.  In traditional karate, it's hit & finish.  Or block & move, then hit again & finish.  And how about block / strike.  How much block-strike do you seen in sport karate kumite or MMA.  You've got have these skills in traditional karate fighting....
|
And don't forget it's how you hit, where you hit, and follow up after the hit to finish the opponent, WHILE staving off any assault at the same time.  Key word in traditional karate is FINISH.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Stance is the only real change I've ever seen.
> 
> Simply because a pure MT or Boxing stance is awful in mMMA because of the grappling.



lots of changes. A lot of them subtle. Some of them obvious. Where did striking entries into someone elses guard originate from? Bjj had guard. Nobody was countering guard with stand up though.

Anyway modified stance to accommodate takedowns. Black shorts,starts on the left.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> You can't train in Muay Thai\Wrestling. for 5 years and become a Black belt in shotokan. But you can train in shotokan and BJJ for 5 years and perform well in MMA.



Can you train shotokan and bjj and get a black belt in mma?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Well I don't need a corner man so that's one reason my answer about them was so poor.. Was being rhetorical, ya got me.
> |
> The bolded portion, though, does highlight what I am driving at.  I could care less if I'm in a corner or in the center.  Because I change as the situation changes, always with a PRINCIPLED response.  Ippon Kumite taught to white belts teaches you to move off-line.  Traditional karate, for success, DEMANDS you take that into the fight.  You don't forget it once you move from ippon kumite to jiyu kumitie.  You must carry the principles over.... no exceptions.  This is what I mean about MENTAL DISCIPLINE.
> ...



Making a lot of claims how karate solves all your fighting issues because it is karate. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. And I just don't think it works like that.

Certainly doesn't for anyone else.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Zero said:


> ...I just happen to disagree with you as to the value of a corner man in the sporting/ring environment or the "corner-man" (mentor) in the real world, non-ring environment.  But that's fine, it can be good to disagree and test each other's position - sometimes a great thing happens in debate and you actually realise that what you had whole-heartedly understood to be correct (or had bought into as your teacher's gospel teachings), is actually in correct, or that someone else's approach is better.
> 
> That in my view is only a good thing - if you are open-minded enough to accept that.


|
Well, the real problem IMO, is I'm going against convention.  Take a look at the JKA Shotokan Kumite on YT.  The competitors are in there by themselves.  There is no coaching from the sidelines.  So there is a style-wide reason & a basis for that practice in traditional karate.
|
I felt bad for the MMA loser in my story.  IMO, he was ill-equipped to take on the larger, more aggressive opponent.  That was my conclusion as a coach.  Talking him into confidence just wasn't going to work....
|
Incidentally, the same for Machida against Shogun Rua.  No corner man (IMO) could help Lyoto in those fights.  Definitely same for Machida's Jones fight, Round 2.  That was devastating for me.... but I saw it coming way before Jones got to Machida @ UFC 140.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Making a lot of claims how karate solves all your fighting issues because it is karate. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. And I just don't think it works like that.
> 
> Certainly doesn't for anyone else.


^^^
Rhetorical.  I'm talking about the skills traditional karate training can provide if done true to the Masters.  Of course that's a very hard path to take, scary-DROP BEAR.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Can you train shotokan and bjj and get a black belt in mma?



No, but i've never seen an mma school with a belt system....again, I can still perform competitively with Shotokan and BJJ.

If youre talking about striking while in guard (yours or theirs) you really can't attribute that to MMA...folks without any for of training to that while grappling in schoolyard rumbles....it's just natural, I can hit you, so I will.

As for your video, yes the stances aren't standard boxing or MT obviously for takedown defense.

The start was normal boxing, with a little brawling while trying to not get hit,

Leg kick was exactly how you see a uick front leg  leg kick  in Shotokan (our local shoring school does it the exact same way as well).

The takedown wasn't a picture Perfect double leg as we were taught in wrestling, but you still will see it done that way at tourneys. Some guys prefer to try and drive through that way than to the side.

The grappling was a lot of defensive BJJ with strikes allowed. That's not construct of MMA nor a technique specific to MMA, again you see it in schoolyard rumbles,

Again, MMA is a rules facilitating limited rules that encourage training in multiple styles imo


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> No, but i've never seen an mma school with a belt system....again, I can still perform competitively with Shotokan and BJJ.
> 
> If youre talking about striking while in guard (yours or theirs) you really can't attribute that to MMA...folks without any for of training to that while grappling in schoolyard rumbles....it's just natural, I can hit you, so I will.
> 
> ...



You forget the unorthodox.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> You can't train in Muay Thai\Wrestling. for 5 years and become a Black belt in shotokan. But you can train in shotokan and BJJ for 5 years and perform well in MMA.


|
I concur with this last statement.  I believe your approach would bring the opportunity for great success to MMA practitioners.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I concur with this last statement.  I believe your approach would bring the opportunity for great success to MMA practitioners.



Why exactly. I can see from a UFC perspective, but MMA, how do you quantify that?


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> You forget the unorthodox.



As in? 

I don't know exactly what you mean and don't wanna respond improperly and create a debate built on confusion lol


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Why exactly. I can see from a UFC perspective, but MMA, how do you quantify that?


|
First, you didn't like my scary-Drop Brear, reply.  He posted, some cohort posted a humorous vid about that.  Can we lighten up?
|
Well from an observer point, I would leave the distinctions to you and those like who have more direct contact in MMA.  Would you please expand, explain about your question?  That would help me....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> As in?
> 
> I don't know exactly what you mean and don't wanna respond improperly and create a debate built on confusion lol


|
Yeah, I was lost in the broadness of that statement too.....


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Yeah, I was lost in the broadness of that statement too.....



I'm still waiting to hear you answer Transks  question, I was also a little confused about what you meant by "my view would lead MMA fighters to great success"


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I'm still waiting to hear you answer Transks  question, I was also a little confused about what you meant by "my view would lead MMA fighters to great success"


|
It was a general acknowledgement....  As active MMA guys, you go first....  waiting....


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> It was a general acknowledgement....  As active MMA guys, you go first....  waiting....



Most MMA guys are TMA guys....thats kinda been my entire point. 

the top level UFC fighters throughout its lifespan usually have a couple black belts....or high ranking belts in the least.

Even most of the amateur guys you'll meet are actively (or trying to) train in styles outside of their gym.

That in mind,

an opinion on whether it's it's own standalone martial art really doesn't affect that...


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Most MMA guys are TMA guys....thats kinda been my entire point.
> 
> the top level UFC fighters throughout its lifespan usually have a couple black belts....or high ranking belts in the least.
> 
> ...


|
Ok, thanks I see where you are going with that.
|
Maybe you could start a a thread running through the stylistic approach you've come to have.  Again, I'm not sure TMA is as widely practiced in all of MMA as you suggest.  Guess I'm caught up in UFC-Land.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> ^^^
> Rhetorical.  I'm talking about the skills traditional karate training can provide if done true to the Masters.  Of course that's a very hard path to take, scary-DROP BEAR.



yes but you are not basing that on anything other than karate is awesome.

You don't need a corner man. Because karate is awesome.

machida wins fights because karate is awesome.

what do yo do if you are backed in a corner? Karate of course because it is awesome.

which is fine but karate cant be awesome just because it is awesome. 

That is q self fulfilling prophecy


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> No, but i've never seen an mma school with a belt system....again, I can still perform competitively with Shotokan and BJJ.



I can perform bjj competitively without having a belt in bjj.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I can perform bjj competitively without having a belt in bjj.



Because you've had BJJ training.

otherwise you'd be demolished,not  performing competitively.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> If youre talking about striking while in guard (yours or theirs) you really can't attribute that to MMA...folks without any for of training to that while grappling in schoolyard rumbles....it's just natural, I can hit you, so I will.



no striking while they are in their guard. There is an art to it. It isn't school yard.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Because you've had BJJ training.
> 
> otherwise you'd be demolished,not  performing competitively.



Because I have had submission wrestling training. We had a guy win (ok it was the novice. But he had also been training five months) a bjj comp with exactly zero bjj training. Never put on a gi 

With my mma stand up striking training I wonder how I would go in a Shotokan competition?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Ok. Greg Jackson and a mma belt system. So if you haven't seen it or don't believe it is a thing. Now you have. Yes it is.





Would a Greg Jackson mma black belt be comparable to any black belt in any system?

That was rhetorical.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Greg Jackson and a mma belt system. So if you haven't seen it or don't believe it is a thing. Now you have. Yes it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And odds are I could get nearly everything he teaches as MMA by cross training. 

Some boxing gyms use belt systems, that doesn't mean they're doing anything to distinct them as their own style.

Considering Karate and Kickboxing (which has a lot of karate style moves) are most likely a big part of your MMA striking (the rest probably being boxing or may Thai or a mix) you're  probably set!


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> And odds are I could get nearly everything he teaches as MMA by cross training.
> 
> Some boxing gyms use belt systems, that doesn't mean they're doing anything to distinct them as their own style.
> 
> Considering Karate and Kickboxing (which has a lot of karate style moves) are most likely a big part of your MMA striking (the rest probably being boxing or may Thai or a mix) you're  probably set!



Does this cut both ways? Am I a karate black belt if I can towel up karate black belts. Seeing as mma is just basically karate anyway.

By the way the above is pretty much how kudo grades.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Does this cut both ways? Am I a karate black belt if I can towel up karate black belts. Seeing as mma is just basically karate anyway.
> 
> By the way the above is pretty much how kudo grades.



see here is where thing get a bit vague kudo is a mma. They would do well on mma comps but is a gi on, formal system with belts. Except Apparently you can walk in,bash everybody in the room and walk out with a black belt.

Kudo is - Dan Kyu KIF


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Does this cut both ways? Am I a karate black belt if I can towel up karate black belts. Seeing as mma is just basically karate anyway.
> 
> By the way the above is pretty much how kudo grades.



MMA isn't anything, it's a ruleset. 

Everything someone learns in an MMA gym comes from a specific separate style. Call it whatever you want, but when it's picture perfect, unchanged from style A, it's Style A. Not some "new martial art" because you say so or therest a new venue.

Idk which way anyones cutting anything, I don't need to train MMA at an MMA gym  to learn the things they teach and compete in amateur and local events..nobody's saying "you're an MMA master if you can fight MMA!" I outspar MMA guys all the time.

MMA is just cross training, the only new thing about it is that it's competitions are regulated.

No you won't be a karate black belt. There's still kihon, Bunkai, and kata, but he you could be a fourth of the way there!


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> MMA isn't anything, it's a ruleset.
> 
> Everything someone learns in an MMA gym comes from a specific separate style. Call it whatever you want, but when it's picture perfect, unchanged from style A, it's Style A. Not some "new martial art" because you say so or therest a new venue.
> 
> ...




What if I win a karate competition? They have them that don't require kihon or bunkai. Then i would be a karate expert.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> MMA isn't anything, it's a ruleset.



So a ruleset has a belt system?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Everything someone learns in an MMA gym comes from a specific separate style. Call it whatever you want, but when it's picture perfect, unchanged from style A, it's Style A. Not some "new martial art" because you say so or therest a new venue.



Wait a second. It is picture perfect only because you say so. Which I fundamentally disagree with. 

And most martial arts are derivative of something else. So how is mma different in that respect?


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> What if I win a karate competition? They have them that don't require kihon or bunkai. Then i would be a karate expert.



Nobody has said anything about experts but you.......

Sparse gyms having a belt system doesn't speak for MMA as a whole.

I'll say it one more time then I'm done.

Virtually nothing in MMA is specifically MMA. Nothing. Mostly they are exact techs from other Arts.

If Jimmy has to write a creative story, but instead he decides to have tommy, jim, and pokey each write a paragraph then just turn that in. Jimmy didn't write it just because he said he did.

Another, say Jimmy has to write a research paper, and cites nothing. Just takes credit for it all.

When a move is not changed from its root style, you can't sit and claim it's a new style....

You can say they're fundamentally different all you want, but even in the video you posted, I listed the move used and their respective style. I've seen that leg kick that exact way in shorin Ryu enough to know it's a karate kick.

when you can physically see its the same technique and still say its fundamentally different, that's just denial.

The difference between MMA  and other Arts borrowing I have already explained several times.

They changed things, techniques, stances, methods, etc. Depending  on the beliefs and experiences of the founders.

MMA has changed hardly anything at all. You can still very easily tell exactly what style a tech is from.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 17, 2015)

So I have several martial artists who fight in MMA events. Some also fight in boxing and muay thai events. Some compete in wrestling and no gi events.
Many are quite highly trained in Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, wrestling and some BJJ. Have some who also have training in Shotokan. Are they MMA? I have some who only train in some aspects of Muay Thai, wrestling, and some BJJ. Are they MMA? Or, are they simply fighting in MMA sport events?


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

Danny T said:


> So I have several martial artists who fight in MMA events. Some also fight in boxing and muay thai events. Some compete in wrestling and no gi events.
> Many are quite highly trained in Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, wrestling and some BJJ. Have some who also have training in Shotokan. Are they MMA? I have some who only train in some aspects of Muay Thai, wrestling, and some BJJ. Are they MMA? Or, are they simply fighting in MMA sport events?



To me, they're normal cross training martial artists. Training in multiple arts to cover all their bases for MMA events or SD. Not just referring to your guys Danny, but other MMA guys who are actively learning from multiple styles.

Technically I could (and would) say they are mixed Martial Artists because they are mixing the martial arts they learn. 

But I don't consider their personal or the stabdard mixture of definitive moves from specific martial arts that arent really changed or adapted much a standalone new style of martial arts. In Tma's when a new style takes from an old, they change a good portion of it. A huge portion of techniques you see in MMA are the same as from their root styles.

When I can learn to strike like many high level MMA guys such as Pettis, Silva, machida, or Grapple like a gracie (at a far inferior level than all of these guys of course) without ever stepping foot in an MMA Gym, or training with an MMA coach, I personally can't consider MMA it's own individual style or martial art.

And there's nothing wrong with that. MMA not being it's own individual style doest make it any less legitimate does it? Is it not still a regulated, officialized, and legitimate competitive platform?

Its always been about a format for cross training and fighting other martial arts, since day one.

Again, this has all been my opinion on the subject based around OP's question and the justifications I have for my opinion


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Nobody has said anything about experts but you.......
> 
> Sparse gyms having a belt system doesn't speak for MMA as a whole.
> 
> ...



jimmy uses words exactly like other people have used just in a different order. So therefore jimmy never wrote anything new.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> jimmy uses words exactly like other people have used just in a different order. So therefore jimmy never wrote anything new.



Lol so by that logic, every style punches the same way because they're punches...you missed that point completely


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Danny T said:


> So I have several martial artists who fight in MMA events. Some also fight in boxing and muay thai events. Some compete in wrestling and no gi events.
> Many are quite highly trained in Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, wrestling and some BJJ. Have some who also have training in Shotokan. Are they MMA? I have some who only train in some aspects of Muay Thai, wrestling, and some BJJ. Are they MMA? Or, are they simply fighting in MMA sport events?



Mma the competition and mma the martial art. Two things. Sometimes the same. Sometimes different.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Lol so by that logic, every style punches the same way because they're punches...you missed that point completely



No your point does not have a foundation. It relies on mma to be technically the same as another art. Which it isn't. Regardless of whether you say it is or isn't. Which is why classes are separated into mma specific training.

And then if it is exactly the same as a bunch of different arts codified into its own system. Then it is its own system. And the reason for this is if you go back far enough there are very few martial arts that are not derivative.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No your point does not have a foundation. It relies on mma to be technically the same as another art. Which it isn't. Regardless of whether you say it is or isn't. Which is why classes are separated into mma specific training.
> 
> And then if it is exactly the same as a bunch of different arts codified into its own system. Then it is its own system. And the reason for this is if you go back far enough there are very few martial arts that are not derivative.



Yes, but all those derivative martial arts changed something. MMA has not. I pointed out in your video the exact styles method the fighter used from multiple martial arts.

And no my point does have foundation.
if you're writing a paper on relativity, and use passages from Einstein, you don't just claim "it's my paper". You give credit to Einstein. It's his paper, not yours or some other 3Rd parties because you're using it in conjunction with other sources.

When a technique is from BJJ you don't just say it's an "MMA choke" or that an axe kick a La TKD is "an MMA Axe Kick". Because they are blatantly from a different style.

Karate comes from Chinese Martial arts, but looks nothing like Kung Fu. 

Same with Karate and Modern TKD.

But when Pettis throws a TKD kick, it looks exactly like it would in tKD.

When silva throws a front kick, it looks exactly like it does in TKD.

MMA isn't the same as an art. It's Cross training in ARTS.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Mma the competition and mma the martial art. Two things. Sometimes the same. Sometimes different.


Hmmm.
But non of them train in MMA. We have a Muay Thai class, a CSW class, a Kali class, a Wing Chun class, a Fitness kickboxing class. Cross Training?? How about they simply are training... in whatever we are teaching at the time they are in to train. How about we are simply martial artists. 
As for myself I am a senior full instructor in the Wing Chun association I am in. I am an Associate Instructor in the Muay Thai organization I'm in, I'm a senior guro in the kali assoication I'm in. And I have a lot of training in some other systems. So I'm a cross trainer or am I a MMA'er or am I just a martial artist with a lot of high level training in a lot of systems?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Hmmm.
> But non of them train in MMA. We have a Muay Thai class, a CSW class, a Kali class, a Wing Chun class, a Fitness kickboxing class. Cross Training?? How about they simply are training... in whatever we are teaching at the time they are in to train. How about we are simply martial artists.
> As for myself I am a senior full instructor in the Wing Chun association I am in. I am an Associate Instructor in the Muay Thai organization I'm in, I'm a senior guro in the kali assoication I'm in. And I have a lot of training in some other systems. So I'm a cross trainer or am I a MMA'er or am I just a martial artist with a lot of high level training in a lot of systems?



Do the systems that you train in set standards to be the instructor of wing chun and so on?

Or are we all instructors of wing chun in a hopelessly generic way?

Once you have codified a system it is a real martial art. It doesn't matter if it is made up. Plenty of martial arts have been. 

So you would cross train until you created a system that combines the individual styles.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Yes, but all those derivative martial arts changed something. MMA has not. I pointed out in your video the exact styles method the fighter used from multiple martial arts.
> 
> And no my point does have foundation.
> if you're writing a paper on relativity, and use passages from Einstein, you don't just claim "it's my paper". You give credit to Einstein. It's his paper, not yours or some other 3Rd parties because you're using it in conjunction with other sources.
> ...



They are generic moves. No style has ownership of them. Claiming ming punching is boxing kicking is karate and ground fighting is bjj. Is not the whole story.

Does shotokan do inside leg kicks?


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> They are generic moves. No style has ownership of them. Claiming ming punching is boxing kicking is karate and ground fighting is bjj. Is not the whole story.
> 
> Does shotokan do inside leg kicks?



You're right, but now you're grasping at straws. One another thread you argued that a Karate Reverse punch or straight punch was nothing like a Boxers jab. So I know you don't actually have the "they're all just the same move" mentality.

But styles do many of  them very differently and are usually very distinct from one another. 

A muay Thai roundhouse is not a karate roundhouse.

I can't do a high knee raise chamber roundhouse at a karate or TSD school and say "oh its an MMA kick" or "its a Muay ThaI kick" because they know it's their exact technique\method of doing that kick. 

When a fighter does a picture perfect Karate roundhouse, he's doing a Karate style roundhouse or karate kick.

When a fighter uses the exact technique\method he learned in Karate or TKD, he's using that styles kick. Not some new or improved MMA kick  

He's using a TMA's tech in the ring, not some new style.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> You're right, but now you're grasping at straws. One another thread you argued that a Karate Reverse punch or straight punch was nothing like a Boxers jab. So I know you don't actually have the "they're all just the same move" mentality.
> 
> But styles do many of  them very differently and are usually very distinct from one another.
> 
> ...



There is a difference between a style and a technique. A new style can have familiar techniques in it.

Correlation does not equal causation. So it may look like a shoren ryu kick. But have not come from shoren ryu making it not a karate kick. Especially in this case if fired off from a different stance potentially to a different target area and also with a different part of the foot. (unless shoren ryu are notorious leg kickers)


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Some ground work as a comparison.


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## Drose427 (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> There is a difference between a style and a technique. A new style can have familiar techniques in it.
> 
> Correlation does not equal causation. So it may look like a shoren ryu kick. But have not come from shoren ryu making it not a karate kick. Especially in this case if fired off from a different stance potentially to a different target area and also with a different part of the foot. (unless shoren ryu are notorious leg kickers)



Stance and target are irrelevant....in TSD we use the same chamber for our kicks regardless of which kicking leg or target we are using and going for. We also can hit you with shin, instep, or ball of the foot. There isn't some standard striking area....

A style also uses specific techniques....

Unless now Muay Thai roundhouses are thrown from a high knee chamber with either leg.....

is my style now doing straight leg kicks like in Muay Thai too?

Again, a new style would have adapted techniques. Not techniques that are blatantly, picture perfect from other styles.

The latter is a result of a martial artist cross training and using that training in the ring.

There's a big difference between familiar method and exact Method. The majority of the time, the latter is what you see in MMA. 

I can point out the exact style of striking techniques a fighter uses. It isn't hard.

A grappler here can do it with a fighters grappling. 

If a technique is very blatantly from style A, done the way of Style A, which is a completely different method than style b or X, I'm not gonna call it "New Style X or B" because it was used in style B or X's competition.

There is virtually nothing new or specific about techniques used in MMA Denoting it as a new, modern, or independent style.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Does shotokan do inside leg kicks?


|
This is where the generalizations about style lead people to believe that their knowledge of a particular technique or style means they are competent on the style's entire syllabus.
|
Again, using Shotokan, we don't see inside leg kicks in kihon practice.  However, there are fighting approaches, kata bunkai where the principle is taught, the application made.  See Tatsuya Naka, JKA Shotokan kumite champion for example.
|
i AGREE  for practical purposes MMA is a conventional style of fighting consisting of generally sport-fighting methods.  The opposing view is also correct, technically, that MMA is a sanctioned sport where competitors bring existing martial art styles together in combination.
|
There's room for both definitions.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Again, a new style would have adapted techniques. Not techniques that are blatantly, picture perfect from other styles.



Except for stance and target. 

And yet we are still having this discussion.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 18, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> If youre talking about striking while in guard (yours or theirs) you really can't attribute that to MMA...folks without any for of training to that while grappling in schoolyard rumbles....it's just natural, I can hit you, so I will.



Actually, effective ground-n-pound against someone with a good guard is a bit of an art in itself. It's not just instinctive schoolyard punching - classic BJJ handles that approach easily enough. I'm talking about a systematic approach for inflicting damage from within a skilled persons guard without getting swept or submitted. You won't find that kind of training in classic BJJ* or wrestling or karate or boxing. It's something that evolved with the development of MMA.

*(Classic BJJ emphasizes passing the guard before really unloading on an opponent. Some of the BJJ/vale tudo pioneers did train a certain amount of punching from within the guard, but the primary objective was still to get the guy on the bottom to open the guard. It wasn't as advanced as what people are doing now.)


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## Drose427 (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Except for stance and target.
> 
> And yet we are still having this discussion.



Stance and target do not change technique..

Again, you can throw a karate roundhouse from any stance, to any part of your opponents body, and it's still a karate roundhiuse..


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## Danny T (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Do the systems that you train in set standards to be the instructor of wing chun and so on?


Absolutely!




drop bear said:


> Or are we all instructors of wing chun in a hopelessly generic way?


No.



drop bear said:


> Once you have codified a system it is a real martial art. It doesn't matter if it is made up. Plenty of martial arts have been.
> 
> So you would cross train until you created a system that combines the individual styles.


So I am a high level Wing Chunner who is cross training as a high level Nak Muay who is cross training as a high level Wing Chunner who is cross training as high level Pekiti-Tirsia player who is cross training as a high level... and so on?

Or, am I simply a martial artist who is highly trained in several martial arts and a highly trained instructor who instructs several differing systems?
A cross trainer would be one who learns and practices a bit of one and a bit of another to offset something lacking in the other and then trains some in another system to gain a bit of say groundwork because the others don't have it. As a martial artist my individual expression of what I do is certainly mixed yet codified for myself. What I teach is the individual martial systems not a mixed bag of tricks. What my fighters do is to express themselves with what works best for them. Yet when they teach they teach the particular systems. j

I do not consider myself a mixed martial artist nor a cross trainer for I have trained, learned, practiced, and now pass on the complete system not just bits of it.


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## Instructor (Mar 18, 2015)

Going back to the OP:  The spiritual benefits of martial arts training happen whether one focuses on them or not.  I see no reason a person practicing MMA doesn't have as much of a profound experience as somebody training in Aikido.  If they have a good mindset they will grow in any endeavor.

While I personally do not find MMA appealing to say it isn't martial arts is drivel. These are after all human labels attached to physical movement, that's it.  All systems are artificial in a sense  that they are training wheels to elevate the learner to a higher level of function.

I do not think even that martial arts has the market on spiritual growth.  I think any physical endeavor, hiking, or rock climbing, tennis, or whatever helps the old gray matter and alters one perspective.

In short, exercise good (whatever the label), couch potato bad....


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 18, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> First, you didn't like my scary-Drop Brear, reply.  He posted, some cohort posted a humorous vid about that.  Can we lighten up?
> |
> Well from an observer point, I would leave the distinctions to you and those like who have more direct contact in MMA.  Would you please expand, explain about your question?  That would help me....



Firstly read what I posted. I did not disagree with you at all. Stop throwing your toys out of the pram. I simply asked you to clarify what you meant as with the approach you came up with.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 18, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Firstly read what I posted. I did not disagree with you at all. Stop throwing your toys out of the pram. I simply asked you to clarify what you meant as with the approach you came up with.


\
|
Please ask someone else....


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 18, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> |
> Please ask someone else....



Huh, will do. So what you are not prepared to follow up. Oh well....


----------



## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds fair enough. Now if you did combine the systems that could be called a mma or a hybrid,freestyle or any of the terms used for that practice. You could take one style and compete in mma,boxing,judo and so on and clean house or not. But you would not really be teaching those styles.

Even mma as a style can have different variations like vale tudo,pancrace,sanda (mabye) that are taught as individual styles.

All of which just helps people know what they are getting.

So when I rock into a mma school with my tapout t shirt on I do not find myself training akido/tai chi. Cos that is a mix of martial arts tight?


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## Danny T (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Even mma as a style can have different variations like vale tudo,pancrace,sanda (mabye) that are taught as individual styles.
> 
> All of which just helps people know what they are getting.
> 
> So when I rock into a mma school with my tapout t shirt on I do not find myself training akido/tai chi. Cos that is a mix of martial arts tight?


First I have hear of vale tudo or pancrase as being styles rather as particular venues of competition. Actually Pancrase is the name of the production company that holds events based upon professional wrestling shoots vs works. Shoot is a unplanned outcome or series of actions within the 'match'. Works are planned. Pancrase is not a style of fighting and I believe vale tudo is also a type of competition vs a style of fighting.


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## Hyoho (Mar 19, 2015)

Never have liked the words "Martial arts" They dont really ring true as to the purpose of what a lot of us do. Whichever you do MA or MMA they have rules. Kinda takes the fun out of it and boring to watch unless is really is an 'art'.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 19, 2015)

Danny T said:


> First I have hear of vale tudo or pancrase as being styles rather as particular venues of competition. Actually Pancrase is the name of the production company that holds events based upon professional wrestling shoots vs works. Shoot is a unplanned outcome or series of actions within the 'match'. Works are planned. Pancrase is not a style of fighting and I believe vale tudo is also a type of competition vs a style of fighting.



sorry pancration.
http://www.pankrationcanada.com/

And pretty much as soon as there are schools that teach it as a dedicated martial art. I think it becomes a martial art.

That it evolved because of a competition does not necessarily stop it from being a viable art in its own right.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 19, 2015)

I am not an expert on Pankration by any means however, Pankration, again was an event not a style. It utilized all forms of fist and arm strikes as well as leg striking. Hand, fist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, head butts, throws, kneeing, kicking, stomping, standing grappling, ground grappling, submissions through chokes, arm and wrist locks, leg and foot holds, locks and small joint manipulations. It was not a style of fight but simply fighting. 
So today 'if' one were to train for and participant in an UFC event as a nak muay and combat submission wrestling, then continue to train in the same manner and then participate in a Pankration event are they now training Pankration, MMA, or as a nak muay and a csw practitioner?


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 20, 2015)

One thing for sure like all the "what if"  questions. You really are as good as you are as a fighter not so much what you do MA or MMA. One needs to specialize in something whatever to a high level then add ones character and fighting ability. I used to watch Japanese elementary kids grow up, join a high school club and get more intensive to win national championships because they could "fight". You draw on that and add your skills from when you used to win.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> I am not an expert on Pankration by any means however, Pankration, again was an event not a style. It utilized all forms of fist and arm strikes as well as leg striking. Hand, fist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, head butts, throws, kneeing, kicking, stomping, standing grappling, ground grappling, submissions through chokes, arm and wrist locks, leg and foot holds, locks and small joint manipulations. It was not a style of fight but simply fighting.
> So today 'if' one were to train for and participant in an UFC event as a nak muay and combat submission wrestling, then continue to train in the same manner and then participate in a Pankration event are they now training Pankration, MMA, or as a nak muay and a csw practitioner?





Danny T said:


> I am not an expert on Pankration by any means however, Pankration, again was an event not a style. It utilized all forms of fist and arm strikes as well as leg striking. Hand, fist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, head butts, throws, kneeing, kicking, stomping, standing grappling, ground grappling, submissions through chokes, arm and wrist locks, leg and foot holds, locks and small joint manipulations. It was not a style of fight but simply fighting.
> So today 'if' one were to train for and participant in an UFC event as a nak muay and combat submission wrestling, then continue to train in the same manner and then participate in a Pankration event are they now training Pankration, MMA, or as a nak muay and a csw practitioner?



Actually that is a simpler definition. You would be considered to do the style you train in. Not the style you compete in.

generally.


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## Danny T (Mar 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Actually that is a simpler definition. You would be considered to do the style you train in. Not the style you compete in.
> 
> generally.


A basketball player trains in basketball. In the off season he trains in track and field and participates in a few events. He also cross trains in some football agility drills as well as some wrestling drills for resistance pressure drills that is excellent for basketball. He does a few wrestling events. What is he? A cross trained basketball player or is he a mixed event athlete?
An XYZ style practitioner comes to me for some muay thai, some boxing and some wrestling training. He goes to another gym and does some bjj training. Is he training MMA? He participates in some kickboxing events is he mma? He participates in some grappling events, some boxing events gaining experience in numerous type of events. Finally he participates in some mma style events. Is he mma, has he been training mma? Or, is he simply a martial artist who has done some cross training and participates in numerous fight sports? Another comes to me wanting to train and eventually when ready wants to participate in an mma event. He does some muay thai, some boxing, some wrestling. I send him to the bjj gym across town to do some bjj. He participates in some kickboxing events, some boxing events, some grappling events and finally he is ready. Finally he participated in an mma event. Has he been training mma or is he simply a person who has cross trained in numerous fighting styles for fight sport events?


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## drop bear (Mar 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> A basketball player trains in basketball. In the off season he trains in track and field and participates in a few events. He also cross trains in some football agility drills as well as some wrestling drills for resistance pressure drills that is excellent for basketball. He does a few wrestling events. What is he? A cross trained basketball player or is he a mixed event athlete?
> An XYZ style practitioner comes to me for some muay thai, some boxing and some wrestling training. He goes to another gym and does some bjj training. Is he training MMA? He participates in some kickboxing events is he mma? He participates in some grappling events, some boxing events gaining experience in numerous type of events. Finally he participates in some mma style events. Is he mma, has he been training mma? Or, is he simply a martial artist who has done some cross training and participates in numerous fight sports? Another comes to me wanting to train and eventually when ready wants to participate in an mma event. He does some muay thai, some boxing, some wrestling. I send him to the bjj gym across town to do some bjj. He participates in some kickboxing events, some boxing events, some grappling events and finally he is ready. Finally he participated in an mma event. Has he been training mma or is he simply a person who has cross trained in numerous fighting styles for fight sport events?



he has cross trained in the numerous styles.


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## Instructor (Mar 20, 2015)

" If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

Fox Mulder


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## Danny T (Mar 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> he has cross trained in the numerous styles.


And if I were to combine my muay thai, boxing, wrestling for him and have him go to the bjj gym is he doing mma or simply cross training in numerous styles?


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## drop bear (Mar 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> And if I were to combine my muay thai, boxing, wrestling for him and have him go to the bjj gym is he doing mma or simply cross training in numerous styles?



Are you combining it int a separate system?


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## Danny T (Mar 20, 2015)

I am combining it in a systematic method for individuals to gain an understanding of themselves and to determine what actions are best suited for themselves in different situations within a fight sport environment. Then when the individual knows who their next opponent is we spend the greater amount of his/her training time preparing for that opponent.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> yes but you are not basing that on anything other than karate is awesome.
> 
> You don't need a corner man. Because karate is awesome.
> 
> ...


|
Don't believe I posted anything like that.  Don't remember repeating 'awesome.'  You kinda created the kind of reply you complain about me posting that I don't.....


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## drop bear (Mar 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> I am combining it in a systematic method for individuals to gain an understanding of themselves and to determine what actions are best suited for themselves in different situations within a fight sport environment. Then when the individual knows who their next opponent is we spend the greater amount of his/her training time preparing for that opponent.



If you are combining it then it is mma. If you are modifying it so it works as a separate unit to its parts it is mma.


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## drop bear (Mar 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Don't believe I posted anything like that.  Don't remember repeating 'awesome.'  You kinda created the kind of reply you complain about me posting that I don't.....



I was paraphrasing.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I was paraphrasing.


|
so was I......


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If you are combining it then it is mma. If you are modifying it so it works as a separate unit to its parts it is mma.


|
Ya.  You know I really agree with you here.  MMA = mixed martial arts.  How you mix them is an open book.  I know Danny T has a lot invested in his program, yet it is only one version of what MMA practitioners can do, how they approach.  This is what (1 issue) makes MMA so interesting to a TMA like me.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I was paraphrasing.


|
Thanks for the nod on last post.  But how about my new "advanced beginner" avatar???


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## Danny T (Mar 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If you are combining it then it is mma. If you are modifying it so it works as a separate unit to its parts it is mma.


Muay Thai began combining Boxing to its techniques back in the 50's and throughout the 60's & 70's and has become a part of its system. Muay Thai is mma by your explanation. Same could be said of many other systems that have evolved by the combining of different aspects of other methods. BJJ is an evolving system what is presently returning to its roots of judo and is combining a lot of wrestling to it methods. BJJ then by your definition would also be mma. The Kali system Pekiti-Tirsia was a family system that the father sent his sons out to other trainers to learn their systems. Upon returning to the family the brothers got together to find out what worked within their systems framework and what didn't. What worked they combined to their system of Pekiti-Tirsia with stick work, sword work, empty hand work, and Dumog (grappling). By your definition Pekiti-Tirsia is mma.


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## Emilee <3 (Mar 25, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Came across this article from a guy who does Aikido, basically saying that due to a lack of spiritual focus, and instead a focus that purely revolves around fighting, MMA and similar styles can't be considered "Martial Arts".
> 
> 
> 
> ...





As someone who does taekwondo, I still read articles and watch videos about other types of martial arts. I personally accept and respect all martial arts, and don't believe there are any "true" or "fake" martial arts (except EFO). Just because MMA lacks the traditional focus on inner peace and meditation, etc, doesn't necessarily mean it's not a real martial art. Spiritual focus is only a fraction of what makes up a martial art, and if anyone says that being a disciplined MMA fighter doesn't require a strong and indomitable spirit, they'd be lying.


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## Ironbear24 (Mar 30, 2016)

Emilee <3 said:


> As someone who does taekwondo, I still read articles and watch videos about other types of martial arts. I personally accept and respect all martial arts, and don't believe there are any "true" or "fake" martial arts (except EFO). Just because MMA lacks the traditional focus on inner peace and meditation, etc, doesn't necessarily mean it's not a real martial art. Spiritual focus is only a fraction of what makes up a martial art, and if anyone says that being a disciplined MMA fighter doesn't require a strong and indomitable spirit, they'd be lying.



In my experiences with kenpo we had virtually no focus on any spiritual aspect. We were there to train how to fight and not train how to meditate. Spirituality sort of came naturally through the process of seeing oneself become stronger through rigorous training.

We were told a strong spirit is the first step to a strong body and mind. We however never meditated or had to stand under waterfalls or pray to Buddha or anything like that. In fact I don't think I have ever seen any of the sifu meditating before.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Mar 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Came across this article from a guy who does Aikido, basically saying that due to a lack of spiritual focus, and instead a focus that purely revolves around fighting, MMA and similar styles can't be considered "Martial Arts".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the whole term martial artist being different from fighter is just a silly myth. Like of someone said to me you're a great fighter but you're not a martial artist who cares as long as I can defend myself or my family  if someone attacks me then who calls if I'm a martial artist or a fighter it's just a word at the end of the day


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## Kenpoguy123 (Mar 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I disagree. People also take up MMA for self defense purposes, and personal fitness.


I have to agree. I mean I'm a karate guy who's been training in karate for over 10 years now but I admit that mma training these days is more interesting to people. It's more bag work and sparring where as traditional martial arts are more based in forms and techniques and going up and down the hall. Now I'm not knocking that I love karate and I love the way the training is but these days people would rather be Connor mcgregor than mr Myagi so it appeals to them more for self defence purposes


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 10, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> I have to agree. I mean I'm a karate guy who's been training in karate for over 10 years now but I admit that mma training these days is more interesting to people. It's more bag work and sparring where as traditional martial arts are more based in forms and techniques and going up and down the hall. Now I'm not knocking that I love karate and I love the way the training is but these days people would rather be Connor mcgregor than mr Myagi so it appeals to them more for self defence purposes



I'd rather be me .


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