# Footwork when sparring or using mitts.



## jezr74 (Jan 27, 2015)

Another post which included some talk around footwork has prompted me to comment here.

I boxed when younger and I like to move on my feet. 20 years later and I've started over with Hapkido, when sparring or using the mitts I still constantly moving side to side, and I get criticized by some club *members* (not my instructor) that I'm trying to be flashy as they tend to stay still, or they just move in back and forward in a linear fashion.

I'm more agile and have better response times when kept in motion and I can keep it up a lot longer than a linear approach, which I find slows me down and feels sluggish.

How do you teach (or are taught) to move when sparring or mitt work in your club?


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## Drose427 (Jan 27, 2015)

Generally, we teach to circle and stay as light as you can. But understand this cant apply to everyone. Different bodies have to spar different ways. If the one of the older gentlemen can move and circle as quick or as much as me, thats fine. As long that theyre staying as light as they can and not standing as stiff as a heavy bag.


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## Buka (Jan 27, 2015)

I think if it's okay with your instructor, it's okay.

I teach people to move as their body allows. Movement (footwork) is twofold, avoid getting hit while staying, or moving into, a position to hit.

When sparring, the feedback is pretty clear as to if it's working.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

We do similar to that boxing footwork drill except have some more movements and concepts here and there.

That drill and concept shouldn't really have to be style specific because tend to be structured the same so it is going to be a pretty consistent idea.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

I was quite pleased with that video. And employing those strategies will take advantage of people who don't.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

Use the clock principal, and tell your students what time it is.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2015)

We teach students to move move move. Lateral movement is generally the best choice, and a linear retreat is generally the worst.


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## Danny T (Jan 27, 2015)

Drop Bear, excellent footwork concepts on the video.
Angle going in and on egress. Don't always enter the same or egress the same. Proper angles allow you to be in position to attack and the opponent to have to reposition to counter/counter-attack. If you must step backward angle immediately zoning to the opponent's weaker position.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> How do you teach (or are taught) to move when sparring or mitt work in your club?


I like to teach my guys to always move in circle. If your opponent has

- "right" leg forward, you should circle to his "right".
- "left" leg forward, you should circle to his "left".

Because your opponent doesn't want you to move behind him, you can "force" your opponent to circle around with you, and use his leading arm to jam his own back arm. This way, you will always force your opponent to fight with your favor footwork and not with his favor footwork.

You should always move your back foot first, when your back foot and both of your opponent's feet are on a straight line, if you move in through that line, it will be difficult for your opponent to escape your "single leg" attack.


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## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to teach my guys to always move in circle. If your opponent has
> 
> - "right" leg forward, you should circle to his "right".
> - "left" leg forward, you should circle to his "left".
> ...



Yeah very good methodology there.


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## Danny T (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to teach my guys to always move in circle. If your opponent has
> 
> - "right" leg forward, you should circle to his "right".
> - "left" leg forward, you should circle to his "left".
> ...


A good opponent won't circle with you. Will cut you off instead.


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## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

Danny T said:


> A good opponent won't circle with you. Will cut you off instead.



Not necessarily if is a tactical situation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

Danny T said:


> A good opponent won't circle with you. Will cut you off instead.


Of course that may happen. It's better for your opponent to circle with you (you lead the fight) than for you to circle with your opponent (your opponent leads the fight). Also if you have spent more training time in this kind of circular footwork, you will be more familiar with this situation than your opponent does. That will be your advantage.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Danny T said:


> A good opponent won't circle with you. Will cut you off instead.



And if you are both just casually side stepping to the right then neither of you are achieving much.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course that may happen. It's better for your opponent to circle with you (you lead the fight) than for you to circle with your opponent (your opponent leads the fight). Also if you have spent more training time in this kind of circular footwork, you will be more familiar with this situation than your opponent does. That will be your advantage.



You would have to watch for switching and cross stepping. Because then you would be circling into punches and not away from them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You would have to watch for switching and cross stepping. Because then you would be circling into punches and not away from them.


Agree! When your opponent switches sides, you switch your circular direction too. Again if your opponent switches to his

- right side forward, you want to circle to his right.
- left side forward, you want to circle to his left.

You want to circular into your opponent's "side door". The definition of your opponent's "side door" is the "outside area of his leading leg".

If your opponent stands like the following picture, you should circle to his left (your right). You don't want to circle into your opponent's "front door - inside of his leading leg" so his powerful righ cross or right hook can reach you.

IMO, when your opponent shuffle his stance and switch sides from "uniform stance" into "mirror stance", your back leg roundhouse kick should kick out right at his belly. You should then move in right at that moment. No more circle around footwork will be needed after that. You just use your roundhouse kick as your 1st set up for your "entering strategy".

A boxing coach would tell you that when you see your opponent switches sides in the middle of the game, he must be tired, you should attack with everything you got right at that moment.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

IMO, no matter how your opponent may stand, you should always try to move your back foot "toward the direction" in order to line up "your back foot with both of his feet".


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, no matter how your opponent may stand, you should always try to move your back foot "toward the direction" in order to line up "your back foot with both of his feet".



The only time i would really bother with his feet is if he is south paw In which case I keep my front foot on the out side of his. Otherwise i think it might just get too focused on the feet and less focused on the face punching.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! When your opponent switches sides, you switch your circular direction too. Again if your opponent switches to his
> 
> - right side forward, you want to circle to his right.
> - left side forward, you want to circle to his left.
> ...



It depends on the boxer some switch a lot. Some never do it.

It should be used to to create angles or opportunities. So switching during a turn off or a switching left cross. Which i use a bit.

I have no idea how it would help if you are tired other than preserving your leg if it gets kicked in.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The only time i would really bother with his feet is if he is south paw In which case I keep my front foot on the out side of his. Otherwise i think it might just get too focused on the feet and less focused on the face punching.


It's not your opponent's feet that you should care about. It's his back hand that you should care about. IMO, don't give your opponent a chance to knock you out by his "powerful back hand cross/hook" should be treated as your highest priority.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It depends on the boxer some switch a lot. Some never do it.
> 
> It should be used to to create angles or opportunities. So switching during a turn off or a switching left cross. Which i use a bit.
> 
> I have no idea how it would help if you are tired other than preserving your leg if it gets kicked in.


Since you may throw more leading arm jabs than you may throw back arm cross/hook, your leading arm may be tired sooner that your back arm. You may switch sides just to rest your leading arm and use your other arm to deliever your jabs.

You may switch sides if you are a "striker". Unless you can deliver powerful "cross/hook" from both of your arms, otherwise, I see no good reason to switch sides.

You should never switch side if you are a "grappler".


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not your opponent's feet that you should care about. It's his back hand that you should care about. IMO, don't give your opponent a chance to knock you out by his "powerful back hand cross, or powerful back hand hook" should be treated as your highest priority.


But that means you have to care about his feet. LOL


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not your opponent's feet that you should care about. It's his back hand that you should care about. IMO, don't give your opponent a chance to knock you out by his "powerful back hand cross, or powerful back hand hook" should be treated as your highest priority.



Yeah i agree with that. And that is the idea behind foot fighting a south paw.

I am still not sure the circling helps in the way i am envisioning it. Where i can just be standing there and you are doing laps around me.

my issues are that it is too slow and predictable to be confusing. As compared to just moving around and then cutting an angle on an entry.

And your circle is bigger than mine. If you are walking around me an i just pivot. I think i am controlling that space. I think i get the better angles ii travel less distance because my circle is smaller.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah i agree with that. And that is the idea behind foot fighting a south paw.
> 
> I am still not sure the circling helps in the way i am envisioning it. Where i can just be standing there and you are doing laps around me.
> 
> ...


The idea is that they are trying to make you do something stupid. If you are too smart for them. so be it, but you circle because moving straight in isn't the best option. Maybe he is a basketball player and you are smaller.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> The idea is that they are trying to make you do something stupid. If you are too smart for them. so be it, but you circle because moving straight in isn't the best option. Maybe he is a basketball player and you are smaller.



But i assume we are not talking about circling off here. Bit more doing laps of a guy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And your circle is bigger than mine. If you are walking around me an i just pivot. I think i am controlling that space. I think i get the better angles ii travel less distance because my circle is smaller.


If you are not used to turn with your opponent's circular footwork, you may get dizzy.






Here is an example that your opponent's circle is bigger that your pivot. It's not hard to see who is controlling the fight and why.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since you may throw more leading arm jabs than you may throw back arm cross/hook, your leading arm may be tired sooner that your back arm. You may switch sides just to rest your leading arm and use your other arm to deliever your jabs.
> 
> You may switch sides if you are a "striker". Unless you can deliver powerful "cross/hook" from both of your arms, otherwise, I see no good reason to switch sides.
> 
> You should never switch side if you are a "grappler".



I think there are better ways to deal with tired ams.

Getting stronger comes to mind.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> But i assume we are not talking about circling off here. Bit more doing laps of a guy.


Doing laps may be a better option than running into a jab that you will never out reach.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't have a suitable clip for the striking environment but I have a clip for the grappling environment. Here is an example that your opponent's circle is bigger that your pivot. It's not hard to see who is controlling the fight and why.



Ok lets call that circling off. And you hit that as a timing issue. Normally he goes straight at you and you circle. So you get a better angle.

I don't think that will work at the shaping up stage.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Doing laps may be a better option than running into a jab that you will never out reach.



You cant outrun a jab in the manner you are suggesting. You could run at a full sprint in circles around me and i could still keep up with you throwing jabs.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You cant outrun a jab in the manner you are suggesting. You could run at a full sprint in circles around me and i could still keep up with you throwing jabs.


All I have to do it stay to the right of your lead leg (I'm left handed)


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> All I have to do it stay to the right of your lead leg (I'm left handed)


On the other hand, I'm the tall one, you should be circling me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

Here is an example that your opponent's "circle walking" may make you to feel dizzy. I feel dizzy just by looking at this clip. 






Also if your opponent can circle around you with speed of light, he may turn you into a new born baby.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok lets call that circling off. And you hit that as a timing issue. Normally he goes straight at you and you circle. So you get a better angle.
> 
> I don't think that will work at the shaping up stage.


The idea of "circular dragging" or "circle footwork" is to force your opponent to commit on something, anything, so you can take advantage on it. It's an "door opening" move. It's not a "finish move". You don't care about what your opponent may respond to it. You just want him to respond instead of just standing there and wait for you to do something.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I think there are better ways to deal with tired ams.
> 
> Getting stronger comes to mind.


I will never switch sides in the middle of the fight no matter how tired that I may be. If I have to, I may switch to the "cross stance - right leg forward with left arm forward." instead.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I will never switch sides in the middle of the fight no matter how tired that I may be. If I have to, I may switch to the "cross stance - right leg forward with left arm forward." instead.


I wish I could say that, but I originally learned to fight right handed, and would opt to at least give it a try. LOL


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## Drose427 (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The idea of "circular dragging" or "circle footwork" is to force your opponent to commit on something, anything, so you can take advantage on it. It's an "door opening" move. It's not a "finish move". You don't care about what your opponent may respond to it. You just want him to respond instead of just standing there and wait for you to do something.



TO give an example:

Opponent is leading with left leg. If you circle to his left (your right) he _has _turn that way, which opens up a portion of his stomach. If you circle the other way, its much easier for him to just move with you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

In grappling, when you apply circular arm dragging, if your opponent turns with you, you can take advantage on his turning and help him to turn more than he wants to. In other words, you want your opponent to "commit on something, anything". If your opponent doesn't commit on anything, you can't borrow his force and take advantage on it.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> All I have to do it stay to the right of your lead leg (I'm left handed)



Which you cant do the way you describe. Because to get to the side of my body you have to travel further than i do.

Because I can cover ground in a small circle more quickly than you can cover ground in a big circle.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Which you cant do the way you describe. Because to get to the side of my body you have to travel further than i do.
> 
> Because I can cover ground in a small circle more quickly than you can cover ground in a big circle.


But I'm round house kicking you in the leg and blocking the jab.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

Again, I don't need to circle you if you are smaller than me.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> On the other hand, I'm the tall one, you should be circling me.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are not used to turn with your opponent's circular footwork, you may get dizzy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly like that fight. He circles and you just pivot. Less effort for you less chance of screwing up.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> But I'm round house kicking you in the leg and blocking the jab.



Which is fine. But you are not achieving better roundhouse or blocks by circling. Because by the time you hit that roundhouse you are dead on in front of me. Again because I have less ground to cover to face you than you have to get off center.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

My goal to get behind you, or to the outside. I'm pretty tricky with the feets mang.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Which is fine. But you are not achieving better roundhouse or blocks by circling. Because by the time you hit that roundhouse you are dead on in front of me. Again because I have less ground to cover to face you than you have to get off center.


I'm not attacking with the big circle, I am getting away from your right hand.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Again, I don't need to circle you if you are smaller than me.



There are ways to cover the gap on a bigger guy. A fun one is to go backwards cut the angle then go forwards again. It means you have to stop and change direction to keep your range. Which takes a bit of time to do.

If as a bigger guy you are getting rushed at alot. You probably would want to circle. Because then i have to stop and change directions.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> My goal to get behind you, or to the outside. I'm pretty tricky with the feets mang.



ok you will never get behind me by trying to run around me like that. Unless you are the flash.

If i could do pictures with my phone I could show you that angle that looks like a slice of pie.

It is the same angle all the way along but at the point of that pie there is no distance between the arms. So to travel 90degrees with a pivot takes no time or effort.

Now as you go back along the arms of that diagram the distance you need to create that 90degree increases.More effort more time.

So you are giving up the advantage playing that game.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I wish I could say that, but I originally learned to fight right handed, and would opt to at least give it a try. LOL


In grappling, you have 

- rooting leg (to maintain your own balance), and 
- attacking leg (to attack your opponent's leg). 

Also you have 

- upper hand (to control your opponent's body), and 
- lower hand (to control your opponent's arm). 

It's much more difficult to train both sides equal in the grappling game.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 29, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you will never get behind me by trying to run around me like that.


From a grappler point of view, to get behind you may not be your opponent's intention. His intention may be just to line up his back foot with both of your feet. The moment that those 3 feet are in a straight line, he will shoot in at your leading leg, from that angle, no matter where you may retreat your leading leg back, his hand can always get your leading leg. It will be very difficult for you to escape your leading leg from his "single leg" attack. Of course if you just keep pivot with your opponent, he won't get that chance. It's a patient game.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 29, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Which is fine. But you are not achieving better roundhouse or blocks by circling. Because by the time you hit that roundhouse you are dead on in front of me. Again because I have less ground to cover to face you than you have to get off center.


I'm not attacking with the big circle, I am getting away from your right hand.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> In grappling, you have
> 
> - rooting leg (to maintain your own balance), and
> - attacking leg (to attack your opponent's leg).
> ...


It is more that I was taught to be a right hander in life, but have only now discovered how awesome I am on the left side, but I don't expect a right handed person to understand.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> It is more that I was taught to be a right hander in life, but have only now discovered how awesome I am on the left side, but I don't expect a right handed person to understand.


The hand is only the 50%. The feet is the other 50%. Since the leg skill will require a lot of training time, to make both side equal will be difficult. Unless you have spent the same amount of training time on both legs, to use both legs as equal "attacking leg" will not be realistic.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The hand is only the 50%. The feet is the other 50%.


Ya know, I happen to be left footed and left eye dominant, in case you got more statistics.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ya know, I happen to be left footed and left eye dominant, in case you got more statistics.


Again, it depends on how much "training time" that you may devote on both sides. The leg skill is like to shoot hand gun. Even if you may be good "to use" your left hand as good as your right hand, if you only shoot with your right hand, your left hand "shooting skill" will always be weaker than your right hand "shooting skill".


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again, it depends on how much "training time" that you may devote on both sides. The leg skill is like to shoot hand gun. Even if you may be good "to use" your left hand as good as your right hand, if you only shoot with your right hand, your left hand "shooting skill" will always be weaker than your right hand "shooting skill".


I don't disagree with you but a lot of us left handers are a special case. We get taught on one side, teach ourselves the otherside, and decide what feels best, but we know both.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2015)

In the following clip, we can see that she used more left side throws than right side throws.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2015)

The shorter guy always had left side forward and all his throws were left side throws,


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 4, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> How do you teach (or are taught) to move when sparring or mitt work in your club?



We do both stationary and moving mitt work. In a real fight we may not have the space to move a round a lot, so we need to know how to do both.  Stationary fighting helps you to develop a strong stance and root. Moving around a lot means that you aren't rooted and not being rooted is a bad thing. If I move then I need to be able to quickly root myself.


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