# Dangers of Capitalism Growing



## MA-Caver (Jun 23, 2011)

First off don't get the idea that I'm some closet communist. But I do see what the &quot;wolves&quot; are wanting to do. This exerpt from a book &quot;The Story of B&quot; written by Daniel Quinn.   





> What works, evidently, is cultural diversity. This should not come as a surprise. If culture is viewed as a biological phenomenon, then we should expect to see diversity favored over uniformity. A thousand designs  one for every locale and situation  always works better than one design for all locales and situations.  Birds are more likely to survive in ten thousand nest patterns than in one. Mammals are more likely to survive in ten thousand social patterns than in one. And humans are more likely to survive in ten thousand cultures than in one  as we are in the process of proving right now. We are in the process of making the world unlivable for ourselves  precisely because everyone is being forced to live a single way. There would be no problem if only one person in ten thousand lived the way we live. The problem appears only as we approach the point where only one person in ten thousand is permitted to live any other way than the way we live.  In a world of ten thousand cultures, one culture can be completely mad and destructive, and little harm will be done. In a world of one culture  and that one culture completely mad and destructive  catastrophe is inevitable. So: tribal warfare  casual, intermittent, small scale and frequent  worked well for tribal peoples, because it safeguarded cultural diversity. It was not sweet or beautiful or angelic but it did work ... for hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps even millions of years.


   It's one thing to help a country get rid of a despot/dictator. It's another to try and influence it to do things OUR way. The old &quot;not quite that funny&quot; joke about how we help out other countries to plant Walmarts and McDonalds in them. Before certain inventions came about many countries developed their own culture and way of doing things. Their own ways of dealing with crime, parental responsibility, religion, government and so forth. And by and large they thrived in their own way.  The native Hawaiians are a good example, as well as the American Indian tribes, Australian aborigines, Maori's of New Zealand, African and South American natives ... they all had their own way of living within their respective spaces in the world however large or small.   Yet over the years Capitalism has been growing, ready to jump at the opportunity of converting another culture to adopt it.  I don't mind that we help out other countries that really can't help themselves but afterwards leave 'em alone. Let them pick up the pieces and start over hopefully smarter and wiser... but doing things their way.


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2011)

This is talking about Americanism not capitalism. It sounds like you think all other cultures and political societies aren't capitalist where actually a great many are and have been for longer than America has.


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## crushing (Jun 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> This is talking about Americanism not capitalism. It sounds like you think all other cultures and political societies aren't capitalist where actually a great many are and have been for longer than America has.


 
Americanism?  Is that the new imperialism?  Must be genetic.


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2011)

crushing said:


> Americanism? Is that the new imperialism? Must be genetic.


 
It's a plot by the wicked American governments over whom you have no control and who like to blow you up (so I've been informed on the 9/11 thread) to take over the world because the government's secret agents believe all the world is socialist and need to be rescued from fresh food and vegtables and made to eat salt and sugar laden food while watching 'Friends' so we all weigh 20 st. and can't fight back.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> This is talking about Americanism not capitalism. It sounds like you think all other cultures and political societies aren't capitalist where actually a great many are and have been for longer than America has.


 
Actually yes and no.. but mostly no, the quote Caver posted is not about Americanism, it is about conquest and subjugation and that is not unique to America, pick a society on the planet today and most of them are guilty of trying it or doing it at some point in their history&#8230; Ever hear of a little thing called Social Darwinism&#8230; sure you have.



> Americanism
> 
> 1: a characteristic feature of American English especially as contrasted with British English
> 
> ...


 
And yes there is capitalism, by definition all over the place...even China



> capitalism
> 1: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market


 
However what Caver is posting himself could be called Americanism in the 21st century&#8230;. But in my opinion it may not be and if it is it most certainly not the same Americanism we had in the 1940s or before&#8230;somewhere along the way (I blame the 60s and 70s) it changed and in that time many Americans forgot what being American meant. But Tez, lest we forget our history it was British Imperialism not too long ago&#8230; &#8220;The sun never sets on the British Empire&#8221;. And to be honest, I don&#8217;t agree with the American version or the British version or anyone elses version for that matter


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It's a plot by the wicked American governments over whom you have no control and who like to blow you up (so I've been informed on the 9/11 thread) to take over the world because the government's secret agents believe all the world is socialist and need to be rescued from fresh food and vegtables and made to eat salt and sugar laden food while watching 'Friends' so we all weigh 20 st. and can't fight back.


 
OK that is just plain no :uhyeah:

Although being one that works for one of the minor governments I can say with some modicum of certainty that the majority in government don't care on little bit about those that voted them into office and many have become masters of subterfuge and most that voted them in fall for it hook line a sinker.... it is so much easier than thinking for ones self


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2011)

I don't disagree with the British Imperialism bit etc but I do question the OPs assumption that there's no capitalism outside America and I do think he's talking about making things American rather than capitalist. That can be debated as to whether it's happening or whether it's a good or bad but you can't say America is bringing capitalism to other countries, many, as I said were already capitalist.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 23, 2011)

_What works, evidently, is cultural diversity. This should not come as a surprise. If culture is viewed as a biological phenomenon, then we should expect to see diversity favoured over uniformity. A thousand designs  one for every locale and situation  always works better than one design for all locales and situations. Birds are more likely to survive in ten thousand nest patterns than in one. Mammals are more likely to survive in ten thousand social patterns than in one. And humans are more likely to survive in ten thousand cultures than in one  as we are in the process of proving right now._

I disagree with his premise.

He is essentially saying globalization towards one culture is not good and multiple cultures are inherently good, but he comes to this conclusion how? What is he basing his conclusion on? What are his definitions of good and bad?

Cultures get rid of things they dont like, dont need or outgrow, like starvation, ignorance, and totalitarianism. As people we adapt things that make our life easier, or better, like democracy, education, human rights, and calorie rich foods. 

People are the same the world over, we really are, so it would make sense that we would all gravite towards the same benefits.


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## CoryKS (Jun 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I don't disagree with the British Imperialism bit etc but I do question the OPs assumption that there's no capitalism outside America and I do think he's talking about making things American rather than capitalist. That can be debated as to whether it's happening or whether it's a good or bad but you can't say America is bringing capitalism to other countries, many, as I said were already capitalist.


 
I think what the OP, or at least the article referenced by the OP, is going on about is a peculiar trait of Americans.  Some among us tend to see the rest of the world as a museum of quaint cultural behaviors for them to go see and experience.  They oppose "capitalism" or "Americanism" or whateverism because they can't tolerate seeing something as mundane and familiar as a McDonalds in an exotic location.  They can't comprehend that a French person might actually choose to eat a Big Mac, so they cast it in terms of cultural aggression.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

Why are they called Big Mac's by the way, given that they are actually very small?  Well, the awful version we get sold over here in 3rd World Post-Imperialist Britain is anyhow - the only thing you can taste is the gherkin (if that is what that green thingy is) :lol:.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I don't disagree with the British Imperialism bit etc but I do question the OPs assumption that there's no capitalism outside America and I do think he's talking about making things American rather than capitalist. That can be debated as to whether it's happening or whether it's a good or bad but you can't say America is bringing capitalism to other countries, many, as I said were already capitalist.


 
I also said there was Capitalism outside America and I never said or inferred America is bringing Capitalism to other countries.  

And I am not so sure it has anything to do with making things American or Americanism we just happen to be the world villain at the moment... However it does have to do with making things corporate and homogenous therefore easier to control... however I will admit there are those in America that simply do not understand why others do not want to be just like us... but then some of those are working with rather antiquated ideas as to what other countries are like or they are simply looking at the money that can be made in other countries... how many Wal-Marts and McDonalds are in other countries now. But then there are a lot of people in other countries that are working with antiquated views of the USA too&#8230;basically people are people. 

And to be incredibly honest, I doubt many have any idea what Americanism means inside the US borders little alone outside of them. You want to see someone disillusioned with the USA look to many immigrants that come here as well as a few of us that were born here&#8230; what they/we were taught in their/our country is generally not the reality these days.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> &#8220;
> 
> I disagree with his premise.
> 
> ...


 
And I disagree with you... how do you come to the conclusion that diversity is bad? And how do you define good and bad?


Cultures do get rid of things they don't like but not all cultures get rid of the same things and not all culture needs the same things. Yes they tend to attempt to stamp out ignorance but not all cultures define ignorance the same. They also do not like Totalitarianism but that to can have various meanings depending on... the culture. Yes most want to make life easier and better but not all want democracy. Most want education but again they may not want to be educated in teh same things or emphasize the same things as important in education and they most certainly do not learn the same way, there are differnt views on that as well. And not all define Human rights the same. And not all go for Calorie rich foods either nor do the wnt them. I have said on many ocassions that if the rest of the world is smart they will avoid our food since we seem to be the only ones that can survive by eating thsi crap.   

People are basically the same however the differences appear based on culture and not all cultures agree with how they should live and very few like being told they are wrong as it applies to their life and culture and very few like to be forced to change to another cultures view of things. 

There have been psychological studies done that place the US and China at opposite poles of the spectrum, philosophically, Religiously, Governmentally and they also show that the closer you get to either of them the more similar those cultures become and they also say that in Europe you get a pretty good mix of both. And just looking at Russia you can see it change from East to West. Cultural diversity, in my opinion, is a good thing and likely not going away naturally at all and not going away anytime soon... if it does then you are back to totalitarianism. But then this is just the opinion of a cynical American so take it for what it is worth


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> I think what the OP, or at least the article referenced by the OP, is going on about is a peculiar trait of Americans. Some among us tend to see the rest of the world as a museum of quaint cultural behaviors for them to go see and experience. *They oppose "capitalism" or "Americanism" or whateverism because they can't tolerate seeing something as mundane and familiar as a McDonalds in an exotic location*. They can't comprehend that a French person might actually choose to eat a Big Mac, so they cast it in terms of cultural aggression.


 

Do you mean Americans or non Americans? Sorry can't work out which you mean. 

Sukerkin, tiddy as the 'Big Macs' are by all accounts they are healthier than their American cousins!  
 There is a very nice McDonalds just outside St. Tropez, it's very Gallic, with salads,fruit, mineral water and beer. You can sit outside on a balmy evening, with the Massif Maures behind you and the Med in front, very pleasant. In France it seems to be a place where you take the kids every so often, not for grown ups exactly but at least you can get mayonaise to put on your chips... sorry 'fries'.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Why are they called Big Mac's by the way, given that they are actually very small? Well, the awful version we get sold over here in 3rd World Post-Imperialist Britain is anyhow - the only thing you can taste is the gherkin (if that is what that green thingy is) :lol:.


 
Side note; McDonalds actually changes its menu depending on the country it is in and the culture it is selling to. In China Apple Pies go bad on the shelf so they sell as red bean past pie instead and all Chicken in McDonalds in Beijing is spicy... they are geniuses when it comes to figuring out what a country will eat, they also change it regionally in the US sometimes&#8230; so you only have yourselves to blame for the McDonald&#8217;s menu 

By the way.... McDonalds is rather insidious that way


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

Aye, the contrast with the ones we had when we were in Calgary ten years ago is quite marked :nods:.

I am being a bit unfair on them I suppose - you cannot expect anything decent that is dinged up by minimum wage staff for the drive-through window.


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Side note; McDonalds actually changes its menu depending on the country it is in and the culture it is selling to. In China Apple Pies go bad on the shelf so they sell as red bean past pie instead and all Chicken in McDonalds in Beijing is spicy... they are geniuses when it comes to figuring out what a country will eat, they also change it regionally in the US sometimes so you only have yourselves to blame for the McDonalds menu
> 
> By the way.... McDonalds is rather insidious that way


 

But they do employ local people and bring money into communities, used now and again they are no worse than many other places. I don't know if you have as many takeaways as we do which compete with them. We have the most sublime fish and chip shops, Indian, Italian, Chinese, Malay, Greek etc takeways. Up the road from me we have a Ghurkha takeaway as well. We have the Parmo places up in the NE, now you want to talk huge calories that is a parmo! this is America's worst contribution to our cuisine not McDonalds!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmo

"In 2007 North Yorkshire Trading Standards conducted a survey of 25 fast food dishes. A large Parmo with chips and salad contains approximately* 2600* calories and *150g* of fat"


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## CoryKS (Jun 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Do you mean Americans or non Americans? Sorry can't work out which you mean.


 
I suppose there are non-Americans who hold the same views, but by "they" I meant those Americans who would like to keep all other cultures free of American influence so they can have the "authentic experience" when they go abroad.  Which is really all I believe this talk of skeery American capitalism amounts to.  There's really no danger that we are going to morph into a single, monolithic culture or that we somehow become weaker because of cultural commonalities.  The people who complain about this sort of thing just want all you foreigners to act according to your respective stereotypes.


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> I suppose there are non-Americans who hold the same views, but by "they" I meant those Americans who would like to keep all other cultures free of American influence so they can have the "authentic experience" when they go abroad. Which is really all I believe this talk of skeery American capitalism amounts to. There's really no danger that we are going to morph into a single, monolithic culture or that we somehow become weaker because of cultural commonalities. The people who complain about this sort of thing just want all you foreigners to act according to your respective stereotypes.


 
Ah I see, cheers!

That stereotype of English people being well, English lol? Only English people aren't that English, we have those from the North East and West, we have Geordies, Brummies, Scousers and Yellowbellies, we have West Country folk, Cockneys, Black Country people as well as many others, none of them act 'English'. and it's the same in every country I've been in, each area, district or county is different. To be honest no amount of American so called influence is going to turn them into anything they aren't, hell, we can't even get some of them to speak proper English lol!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know if you have as many takeaways as we do which compete with them.


 
Haven&#8217;t been here lately have you  We call them fast food

Chinese takeout, Italian take out, heck name a culture and we have the takeout, Burger King, Wendy's, Pizza Hut, Papa Ginos, hot dog stands, hamburger stands, Dairy queen, Arby's, Au Bon Pain, KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken), Dixy Chicken, Dunkin' Donuts, Hardee's, Krispy Kreme, Little Caesars, Long John Silvers, Popeye&#8217;s Chicken & Biscuits, Red Rooster, Taco Bell, Wimpy and White Castle just to name a few



Tez3 said:


> "In 2007 North Yorkshire Trading Standards conducted a survey of 25 fast food dishes. A large Parmo with chips and salad contains approximately 2600 calories and 150g of fat"


 
Try anything at the 99 restaurant or Fridays or any number of the alleged sit down restaurant food chains....2600 calories...that ain't nothin' 

Outback Steakhouse Aussie Cheese Fries with Ranch Dressing
2,900 calories
182 g fat
240 g carbs


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## CoryKS (Jun 23, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Havent been here lately have you  We call them fast food
> 
> Chinese takeout, Italian take out, heck name a culture and we have the takeout, Burger King, Wendy's, Pizza Hut, Papa Ginos, hot dog stands, hamburger stands, Dairy queen, Arby's, Au Bon Pain, KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken), Dixy Chicken, Dunkin' Donuts, Hardee's, Krispy Kreme, Little Caesars, Long John Silvers, Popeyes Chicken & Biscuits, Red Rooster, Taco Bell, Wimpy and White Castle just to name a few


 
Dammit!  Now I'm all hungry.  Can't decide if I'm going Chinese or Vietnamese for lunch today.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

I wouldn't go Vietnamese if I were you ... to much chance of having Rover for dinner :yeuk: {:chuckles: how about that for cultural stereotyping? }.


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## CoryKS (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> I wouldn't go Vietnamese if I were you ... to much chance of having Rover for dinner :yeuk: {:chuckles: how about that for cultural stereotyping? }.


 
I dunno, that's a lot of tripe in my pho to have come from a dog.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> Dammit! Now I'm all hungry. Can't decide if I'm going Chinese or Vietnamese for lunch today.


 
Ahhh I see&#8230; my insidious plan worked :EG: 

:uhohh: Hey&#8230;wait a minute&#8230;. 

Now I&#8217;m hungry too :hb:

DAMN!!!!

My evil plan backfired :disgust:


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## elder999 (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> I wouldn't go Vietnamese if I were you ... to much chance of having Rover for dinner :yeuk: {:chuckles: how about that for cultural stereotyping? }.


 

Do I need to repeat how delicious dog is?

I guess I do. *Dog is delicious.*


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

{smugly munches on his yummy smoked cheddar on toast (with a cup of tea of course!)} :evil:

Oh and you just went WAY down in my estimation, *Elder* :tdown:  "Boo!" at the bad man.  You'll be eating horse and grasshoppers next {:sticks out tongue {in a mature way of course }:}.

Just goes to show that altho' Capitalism as a system for organising societies has been around for a long time, we can still have very strong cultural differences.


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## CoryKS (Jun 23, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Do I need to repeat how delicious dog is?
> 
> I guess I do. *Dog is delicious.*


 
Sewer rat might taste like pumpkin pie etc...


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 23, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Do I need to repeat how delicious dog is?
> 
> I guess I do. *Dog is delicious.*


 
Chatted with a friend of mine from China. He said he is not a fan of dog, but puppy tastes amazing. But above them all, he would put spiced donkey.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

A friend of yours eats puppies and he's still your friend?!  

He'd be brought to the attention of the RSPCA and prosecuted over here and quite right too.

It seems that today is the day that people I had a good opinion of are losing that kudos hand-over-fist.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> A friend of yours eats puppies and he's still your friend?!
> 
> He'd be brought to the attention of the RSPCA and prosecuted over here and quite right too.
> 
> It seems that today is the day that people I had a good opinion of are losing that kudos hand-over-fist.


 
Must be Southern Chinese...they eat strange stuff


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

:grins:  

It is something to note tho', in light of the OP, that cultural differences tend to endure, especially in such essential things as food.  The multi-nationals did have a policy of trying to make everything uniform the world over, I think.  But that has changed to a more subtle mode these days as they try to 'regionalise' their businesses.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> You'll be eating horse


 

Pretty similar to beef if I recall correctly.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> A friend of yours eats puppies and he's still your friend?!
> 
> He'd be brought to the attention of the RSPCA and prosecuted over here and quite right too.
> 
> It seems that today is the day that people I had a good opinion of are losing that kudos hand-over-fist.


 
Here too, but in China.....


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> :grins:
> 
> It is something to note tho', in light of the OP, that cultural differences tend to endure, especially in such essential things as food. The multi-nationals did have a policy of trying to make everything uniform the world over, I think. But that has changed to a more subtle mode these days as they try to 'regionalise' their businesses.


 

Just to back up a bit to the McDonald&#8217;s menu, which as far as I know does not have dog on it anywhere in the world, I once saw a comic who was from Germany and he was talking about how you can get beer in McDonald&#8217;s in Germany 

He said he was in a McDonald&#8217;s in the Southern US and he ordered food and a beer and the guy behind him starting laughing and said to him &#8220;What are you, some kind of idiot, you can&#8217;t get beer in a McDonald&#8217;s&#8221; The person at the counter told him there was no beer sold and he turned to the guy and the guy again said &#8220;You can&#8217;t get beer at McDonald&#8217;s you idiot&#8221; to which he responded &#8220;Then that means you are hear for the food&#8221;


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Here too, but in China.....


 
He'd be called a Southern... or farmer


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## granfire (Jun 23, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> I once saw a comic who was from Germany and he was talking about how you can get beer in McDonalds in Germany



LOL, I think I never looked....another sign I lived too long in the US... :lol:


but seriously, why is everybody talking about food....seems like everything is turning into a food discussion lately...

<off to find some burger joint with beer>



(Like I said, dunno about the beer at Mickey D's, but they certainly served beer at the kindergarden fest...)


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Pretty similar to beef if I recall correctly.



:ugh:  Nasty French habit.  Snails, oysters and frogs legs too :blech:!  Combine that with cheeses that look and taste like they came from between someones toes ... no wonder they keep surrendering - they want to get to some good food!

{Just to be clear, whilst I genuinely might not like the foods noted (except perhaps the cheeses), this is in jest so nobody take genuine offence please}.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> :ugh: Nasty French habit. Snails, oysters and frogs legs too :blech:! Combine that with cheeses that look and taste like they came from between someones toes ... no wonder they keep surrendering - they want to get to some good food!
> 
> {Just to be clear, whilst I genuinely might not like the foods noted (except perhaps the cheeses), this is in jest so nobody take genuine offence please}.


 
I'm offended...French Cheese...you mean...you eat Brie :uhyeah:

Try Blood Tofu and Cow Cartilage...now thats sum eatin' :uhyeah:


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

:faints:


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## CanuckMA (Jun 23, 2011)

Boudin noir.

'nuff said.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 23, 2011)

Surprised to come back to the list of new threads and see that this one had a lot of responses. Good it keeps MT alive and well with active postings... even if they aren't always Martial Arts related....

My desire to post the OP and "quotation" was to point out the potential of losing other cultures in favor of bowing to just one. I chose capitalism because it seems to be the flavour of the month and I chose America as right now it's what we've been doing since the 60's and 70's spreading our way of life. I know there are examples of capitalism all across the globe and not *all *of it is of Americanized origins... But I would say that most of it is. 
But my OP is not about American capitalism it's just about cultural diversity and helping to keep it on our planet. 
Japan for example used to be one of the most culturally different people in the world. Fairly isolated on their large island unchanged until the early Spanish, Portuguese, English and Dutch explorers set foot on their shores. The early explorers were shocked at how quickly one can lose their heads (literally) and the class system which separated the people in the land and how everyone seemingly got along. Samurai class and pheasants living their lives as they have for hundreds (if not thousands) of years. So seeing the rich opportunities that could be exploited (read: capitalism rearing it's ugly head) the explorers (who were viewed as barbarians by the Japanese) got a toe-hold in the name of trade and set their religion upon this barbaric land. Soon (before WWI) the Samurai culture was phased out in favor of westernized clothing, weapons, food, transportation, agriculture and so on. And while Japan is now thriving, the ancient culture that served them well for so many centuries has faded to the history books. 
Change is inevitable and sometimes change is good and sometimes change just eradicates a rich history of a people. The Romans did the same thing to the northern Europeans who were tribal and (again) kept pretty much to themselves with the occasional raids. 
Spain out of greed (again read: capitalism) nearly wiped out an entire culture in the Americas.  
The English (among others) radically changed how African cultures had lived in just a few dozen decades. 
Fast forward to post WWII and the two dominate cultures of capitalism and communism at war with each other over the ideals they each held. America got involved with Vietnam to help prevent the supposed threat of communism, when it really was just to enrich the growth of capitalism and the enormous profits that could be derived from war, a lesson learned from the previous world wars. 

But I'm not trying to focus on capitalism itself per se, though it is in my topic heading it's an example of (forced) changing culturalism,  the strongest example I can think of. Right now capitalism is all the rage in the middle east. The people who lived in a society of dictatorships and kings (who got rich via capitalism -- oil) are now getting tired of it and want their own piece of the "American Dream"... so they're having uprisings and wanting to throw the despots out. They woke up seeing how they're being abused and oppressed. 
And here comes capitalism willing to help out. Why not stay out of it let them solve their own problems? Because it's an easy way to get a toe hold and plant your ideas, your culture into theirs to where eventually it becomes integrated and a part. 
To use McDonalds as an example since it's first restaurant in 1940 it took 27 years before crossing the border into Canada and then 4 years after that it crossed the pacific (Japan). It showed up in Europe the same year and eventually landed in England 3 years later ('74). Coca-cola by the same means (if not time-line), now available in 200 countries. 
What I see going on here is the inevitable growth towards a single culture a singular government via (for the moment) capitalism. Yet, you're hearing the words socialism a lot more often. The euro is now starting to show it's flaws (in Greece and Ireland) since it's attempt to create a single monetary system to make trade easier without having to worry about the value of the money changing according to supply and demand. There's talk of unifying America with it's continental neighbors. 

We are on the verge of change but is it really a good thing? 



> (also from "The Story Of B" )
> I told him about a famous psychological experiment of the late 1950's.  An electrode was implanted in the pleasure center of a monkey's brain.  Pushing a button on a small control box delivered an electric pulse to  the electrode, giving the monkey a tremendous jolt of  sheer, whole body  pleasure. They gave the box to the monkey, who of course had no idea  what it was but by accident eventually pushed the button, giving itself  this tremendous jolt of pleasure. It didn't take many more repetitions  for the monkey to catch on to the connection between the button and the  pleasure, and once this happened it just sat there hour after hour  pushing the button and giving itself jolts of pleasure. It passed up  food, it passed up sex, If they hadn't eventually taken the box away,  the monkey would have sat there and literally pleasured itself to death.  Here is the question I asked back to my questioner: Was there something  wrong with this monkey? Was the monkey flawed?
> No
> Nor were the  early man flawed. Pushing the button of totalitarian agriculture gave  them a tremendous jolt of power. It gave the same jolt of power to the  people of China and to the people of Europe. It gives us the same jolt  of power today. And just like the monkey, no one wants to quit pushing  that button, and we're in serious danger of pleasuring ourselves to  death with unending jolts of power.
> ...


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## elder999 (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> A friend of yours eats puppies and he's still your friend?!
> 
> He'd be brought to the attention of the RSPCA and prosecuted over here and quite right too.
> 
> It seems that today is the day that people I had a good opinion of are losing that kudos hand-over-fist.


 
Dude, puppy is a righteously good meal. Some day I'll tell the story of the macrobiotic vegans and the puppy at Sundance. :lfao:


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2011)

I wouldn't say our takeaways are fast food lol, they take ages, best thing is to phone up then collect about an hour to an hour and a half later.

MA Caver, you're making th classic mistake of calling us the 'English' when referring to the British, it wasn't the English empire, it was the British Empire. In Africa we weren't the only colonialists, other countries had their colonies too. 
I think it's a mistake to think Japan has changed totally, their culture and customs are still very different from others. It's also a mistake to think that the Arab Spring means the people want a piece of American capitalism, you'll find they will actually be turning to Muslim fundamentalism.

I can't see what you are getting at tbh, you are still speaking of capitalism as if it and Americanism were the same thing, you would be surprised to know how many capialist societies don't want to live the American way and nor do they. Sure there's McDs everywhere but America has absorbed far more of European culture than we have of yours, you speak English for a start and the second most spoken language by all accounts is Spanish another European language. the McDs thing is only on the surface, in Europe and I suspect most other countries including Japan, the native culture is deep set, we only pay lip service to American customs and habits that have caught on here.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> Surprised to come back to the list of new threads and see that this one had a lot of responses. Good it keeps MT alive and well with active postings... even if they aren't always Martial Arts related....
> 
> My desire to post the OP and "quotation" was to point out the potential of losing other cultures in favor of bowing to just one. I chose capitalism because it seems to be the flavour of the month and I chose America as right now it's what we've been doing since the 60's and 70's spreading our way of life. I know there are examples of capitalism all across the globe and not all of it is of Americanized origins... But I would say that most of it is.
> But my OP is not about American capitalism it's just about cultural diversity and helping to keep it on our planet.
> ...


 
Not so sure about all of this; the Japanese were influenced by the Chinese prior to the Europeans arriving and even though they are rather westernized and quite capitalistic they still have a rather strong culture that is most definitely Japanese

As to Spain wiping out the almost the entire culture in the Americas well they most certainly did wipe out a lot I believe it was about 2/3rds but most of that was due to the dieses that they brought with them. And the Europeans that settled in the Americas who later became Americans did their fair share of wiping out indigenous races

And Capitalism and Communism are not cultures Capitalism is an economic system and Communism is a sociopolitical movement they are not cultures. I am also not so sure the Middle East is changing at all it could simply be a power shift from one dictator to another and using America and freedom as an excuse and only time will tell there as to what is really going on.

Capitalism is an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market and there is a lot of that going on around the world but I truly do not think it is going to cause the blending of multiple cultures into one. Just take a good hard look at one of your examples, the Japanese. They are most certainly still a Japanese culture and a rather strong one at that and not becoming in any way shape of form part of the American culture simply because of Capitalism

And the Euro may be faltering and the Dollar going down but have you taken a look at the Yuan lately. The Chinese culture is incredibly strong, many have tried to crush it, including Mao but none have been able to and they are adopting form of Capitalism but they are still distinctly Chinese and Capitalism will not change that and here is another one. Most Western Nation, America being one of them, has to play by the Chinese rules if they want to do business in China and the same goes for Japan. If you want to play in those countries you have to play by their rules and that does not make a strong case for a homogenous society devoid of different cultures

And as for the last bit about the monkey and the jolt that comparison just does not work two completely different definitions of power. Besides there were other similar studies done with other animals that learned how to avoid the shock and still get the food but in those cased the current was in the floor.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 23, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> And as for the last bit about the monkey and the jolt that comparison just does not work two completely different definitions of power. Besides there were other similar studies done with other animals that learned how to avoid the shock and still get the food but in those cased the current was in the floor.


Power feels good doesn't it? Ever had a LOT of it? Over people I mean? There are people who do have that much power and boy doesn't it feel good to them. Good enough that they were/are VERY reluctant to let it go (read: Libya, Syria, Egypt and so forth). 
Power is a stimulant, mental and emotional but still a stimulant.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't say our takeaways are fast food lol, they take ages, best thing is to phone up then collect about an hour to an hour and a half later.
> 
> MA Caver, you're making th classic mistake of calling us the 'English' when referring to the British, it wasn't the English empire, it was the British Empire. In Africa we weren't the only colonialists, other countries had their colonies too.
> I think it's a mistake to think Japan has changed totally, their culture and customs are still very different from others. It's also a mistake to think that the Arab Spring means the people want a piece of American capitalism, you'll find they will actually be turning to Muslim fundamentalism.
> ...


 

The sun never sets on the British Empire 

The British Empire would have been the only nation to colonize Africa if it were not for those pesky French, Italians, Germans, Belgians, Spain, Portuguese and Dutch 

And I do believe yu are right about the Middel East, Americanism and Freedom is a good excuse though

The most widely spoken language on the planet, by far (by about 900,000,000 more than Spanish speakers), is Mandarin Chinese and you are right Spanish is number 2 and English is 3rd but only by about 1,000,000 less people than Spanish


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> Power feels good doesn't it? Ever had a LOT of it? Over people I mean? There are people who do have that much power and boy doesn't it feel good to them. Good enough that they were/are VERY reluctant to let it go (read: Libya, Syria, Egypt and so forth).
> Power is a stimulant, mental and emotional but still a stimulant.


 
Different types of power, different reward, not the same, sorry it just does not work for me

You are comparing Power Defined as 



> 1: ability to act or produce an effect (2): ability to get extra-base hits (3): capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect b: legal or official authority, capacity, or right
> 2: possession of control, authority, or influence over others b: one having such power; specifically: a sovereign state c: a controlling group : establishment &#8212;often used in the phrase the powers that be darchaic: a force of armed men echiefly dialect: a large number or quantity
> 3: physical might b: mental or moral efficacy c: political control or influence


 
In order to be the big Kahuna the guy in charge the big boss

With Power as defined as 



> a source or means of supplying energy; especially: electricity
> b: motive power
> c: the time rate at which work is done or energy emitted or transferred


 
I order to gain a euphoric feeling. 

A bit like comparing masturbation to becoming Speaker of the house and it just does not work for me as far as comparisons go


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## crushing (Jun 23, 2011)

McDonalds is a choice in France and buying Levi's in Russia is a choice.  Local capitalist entrepeneurs have made these products accessible in their markets.

Does the economic system that allow the freedom to choose and society to change more or less dangerous than one that may restrict such freedom?


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Boudin noir.
> 
> 'nuff said.



:Ewww:  Aye.  No argument from me on that one :nods:.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

As to the OP, I really do think that it is Democracy that we should be talking about rather than Capitalism.  

The latter is just a way of playing the economic game that, via the profit motive, happens to produce quite efficient results in a focussed array of endeavours (some things it is terrible at).

It is the former that changes cultural mores, altho again only in certain specific ways.  The Arab Spring, for example, is hopefully going to bring more democratic governance in Egypt and elsewhere.  It is likely tho that these governments will not be carbon copies stamped from the pattern of Democracy forged in the British Isles.  It will be their own form and quite rightly so.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> As to the OP, I really do think that it is Democracy that we should be talking about rather than Capitalism.
> 
> The latter is just a way of playing the economic game that, via the profit motive, happens to produce quite efficient results in a focussed array of endeavours (some things it is terrible at).
> 
> It is the former that changes cultural mores, altho again only in certain specific ways.  The Arab Spring, for example, is hopefully going to bring more democratic governance in Egypt and elsewhere.  It is likely tho that these governments will not be carbon copies stamped from the pattern of Democracy forged in the British Isles.  It will be their own form and quite rightly so.



Yes (slap forehead) that is what I was trying to allude to... just to me Democracy and capitalism are almost synonymous. I mean if these were people trying to be a free society where free elections (snicker) and freedom to create whatever enterprise one wanted then okay, in their own way.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2011)

crushing said:


> McDonalds is a choice in France and buying Levi's in Russia is a choice. Local capitalist entrepeneurs have made these products accessible in their markets.
> 
> Does the economic system that allow the freedom to choose and society to change more or less dangerous than one that may restrict such freedom?


 
Yup

Starbucks, McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Papa Ginos are all in Beijing.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 27, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup
> 
> Starbucks, McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Papa Ginos are all in Beijing.


True that but are they managed as capitalists or communists?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> True that but are they managed as capitalists or communists?


 
Private businesses not government.

And you may need to explain what you mean by managed as Capitalist to Managed as Communist because neither is a management style and I am not exactly sure what you are asking


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## MA-Caver (Jun 27, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Private businesses not government.
> 
> And you may need to explain what you mean by managed as Capitalist to Managed as Communist because neither is a management style and I am not exactly sure what you are asking


Well to me capitalist management has always meant "for profit"... Communist ... well it's all for the people isn't it? So no profit or the profits go to the people via the government.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> Well to me capitalist management has always meant "for profit"... Communist ... well it's all for the people isn't it? So no profit or the profits go to the people via the government.


 

It is for profit, the owner charges for a product or service, gets paid and puts the money in the bank. I don't think China or Communism is like you believe they are.

There is no communist society on the planet there are communist political parties that are much closer to Socialism in the way they rule than Communism as defines by Marx

There are a whole lot of very rich people in China these days making a whole lot of money from the business they either work in and/or run. I personally know many people there who make more than I do even after you convert the Yuan to American dollars

There are an awful lot of American Born Chinese returning to China to open businesses and in some cases they too are making scads of money. However, just like in the USA, you can pick a bad business to go into and go broke. However there is also a rather large gap in China between those with and those without money. There appears to be a growing middle class but it is rather small as compared to the very poor and very rich.


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