# Breathing in Kata



## Shuri-te (Jun 20, 2003)

I would like to find out how people breath when they practice kata. Can anyone share some ideas. 

In the Shotokan dojos I train in, the breathing is masked. I was told this comes from the sword arts, where transitions in breathing become openings. Therefore, it is best not to reveal your breathing pattern. The mouth is kept closed and effort is made not to flare the nostrils. The goal is to master and control your breath.

When I studied with an Okinawan master who trained under Shigeru Nakamura, I learned to inhale and exhale crisply and audibly on every technique to maximize power.

I have my own approach which I can share, but would like to learn how others breath in kata.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 20, 2003)

I tend to breath rather loudly  when doing sanchin.
 It depends on the form and fromwhich background it comes from because I have some where the breathing is soft ( almost like tai chi ) and others where evey  movement (block-punch,trow) is an explosive movement of air. 
 I breath in through the nose and out through the mouth  but I have herd there are systems that do it just the other way


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## Rick Tsubota (Jun 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> When I studied with an Okinawan master who trained under Shigeru Nakamura, I learned to inhale and exhale crisply and audibly on every technique to maximize power.
> *



Who is that master?


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## Shuri-te (Jun 21, 2003)

Teruyuki Higa in Hempstead NY in 1988.


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## Rick Tsubota (Jun 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Teruyuki Higa in Hempstead NY in 1988. *




I remember Higa and Mr.Oyata didn't exactly get along in Okinawa and Mr. Oyata called him out but Higa never accepted the challenge. I also remember reading in The Japan Times about Higa being charged in New York for raping a woman that was wearing a T-Shirt with a photo of Mr. Oyata on it but the case was thrown out because a detective introduced evidence incorrectly.


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## Shuri-te (Jun 21, 2003)

Rick Tsubota said:


> Higa and Mr.Oyata didn't exactly get along in Okinawa and Mr. Oyata called him out but Higa never accepted the challenge. I also remember reading in The Japan Times about Higa being charged in New York for raping a woman that was wearing a T-Shirt with a photo of Mr. Oyata on it



I find it sad indeed that these two men's feud resulted in this poor woman's suffering. On the other hand, it is one of the reasons I roll my eyes at the reciting of dojo kun in many schools. It has been my experience that the mastery of karate for many senior karateka, Okinawan, Japanese, and American, has not brought the expected character development and humility as advertized in their dojo kun. I find the overblown egos of some of these men insufferable. Of course many are good decent men, but many others, well, ... But that is grist for another thread.

Higa's class was a good, tough workout. I was coming off a short hiatus in my training, as I had two toddlers at the time and my wife was working weekends, so I really appreciated the conditioning. One interesting aspect to Higa's classes was that you trained alone. He did private lessons for an hour. There was a heavy emphasis on development of power. We did bag work, makiwara work, and strengthening execises  (bench press, shoulder press, etc.). 

On Saturday mornings, he would hold a general session where we did bogu kumite. He had a couple of students at the time that might well have been linebackers for the football team at Hofstra U, where he also had a dojo. These guys were 5'11, 220lbs or so. And with all the emphasis on power training, these guys could punch. A couple of reverse strikes to the kendo mask from these guys taught you to be extra cautious about hanging around too long after your attack, and to block on your retreat. 

My previous sparring experience had been limited to the fantasy world of karate kumite, where after you score a point you are separated. And as we all know, that is certainly not the way a fight unfolds. Bogu is great reality training.

Higa himself must have been obsessed with developing power and probably spent quite a bit of time on the bench. He had really overdeveloped triceps, and pecs that would give Mr. Universe a run for his money. In free sparring, he was remarkably elusive. Maybe from his years in bogu training, he knew how to keep his distance. He didn't have to block much since your techniques would always seem to come up just short.  

One time he did kumite with me right after my exhaustive swinging bag work, so I was sucking wind when we started. And it was downhill from there. He liked to respond to an attack by grabbing your shoulders and doing successive knee kicks to your abdomen. And he made it difficult to escape by shifting from side to side, and pulling on your gi in different ways to keep you off balance. Then he ended with a takedown where he rolled me into a well-executed carotid artery choke, while we were both on our backs. Cool stuff.

In retrospect, I believe Higa passed on to me something that was important to Shigeru Nakamura. Bishop writes: "Noted for his powerful punch, Nakamura, who spent much time training on the makiwara was rumored to be able to flake the bark from a pine tree with a single blow. For this reason he was given the nickname Chiki BUSHI, meaning punch knight."

I learned from Higa the value of power training and the importance of bag work. Now I practice as many combinations as I can against a bag. And as I noted earlier, his instruction on proper breathing may well be the best lesson I have ever learned.

Anyone else care to share how they breath in kata?


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## Rick Tsubota (Jun 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> 
> 
> ...



Yes it is sad she. I also find it sad that the man that raped her was let go because of a technicality and what's worse he was a karate teacher.




> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *On the other hand, it is one of the reasons I roll my eyes at the reciting of dojo kun in many schools. It has been my experience that the mastery of karate for many senior karateka, Okinawan, Japanese, and American, has not brought the expected character development and humility as advertized in their dojo kun. I find the overblown egos of some of these men insufferable. *



The reason for their fued was Higa, who was a kohai or junior in the Okinawa Kenpo dojo kept insulting his sempai or senior Mr. Oyata behind his back until one day Mr. Oyata had enough of it and called him out. Wisely Higa never took the challenge and has avoided Mr. Oyata to this day. I never heard Mr. Oyata say anything bad about Higa or any karateka before, but there are plenty of karateka in Okinawa that don't care for Higa's character. 




> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Anyone else care to share how they breath in kata? *



When I trained in Okinawa Kenpo in Okinawa the breathing was done in a natural manner. It was never forced or controled. We were told to breath naturally beause our bodies know when we need air.


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## angrywhitepajamas (Jun 23, 2003)

During sanchi I breathe like I am swimming (the american crawl technique).Sip the air and then slow soft consistent exhales.  While I have gotten reprimanded by some instructors, I have never been told not to do this by those who have trained with  some one or in Okinowa. I have always been told that long hard inhalation and exhalation indicates bad condition(s).


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## Shuri-te (Jun 23, 2003)

AWP (Angry White Pajamas)

Sanchin has pretty unique breathing. But there are other kata in Uechi Ryu that have "non-sanchin" breathing. Can you share with me how in your system you breathe.

I have had exposure to Uechi Ryu with a 6th dan that has a dojo in Baltimore, Sheldon Dunn. I recall a fair amount of Sanchin like breathing throughout the kata, but most of the movements did not have this exaggerated breathing.

Thanks.


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## Sauzin (Jun 23, 2003)

Ah yes, Okinawan full contact sparring gear.  I'll tell you, those masks don't stop the pain of impact as much as I thought they would.  And that chest protecter isn't all that cooshie either.

Back to the question.  In our dojo we breath in through the nostrils and out through the mouth.  We breath deeply into the abdomen and attempt not to expand our upper chest much.  Most breathing is done quietly with an emphasis at masking its obvious nature.  Breathing is done with the idea that a constant flowing source of air in and out of the abdomen done correctly brings a peaceful and calm state even when the strongest punch is being executed.  

-Paul Holsinger


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## angrywhitepajamas (Jun 25, 2003)

Which exaggerated breathing are you speaking of? (please pardon me Im a little slow on the uptake).  My teachers have always been on my case not to breathe hard and artificially. All of the senseishave been telling me to inhale and exhale softly as well as slowly.  They tell me to breathe naturally in all my other katas and excercises as I do in sanchin.

And If I may, hyperventilating during any form, excercise or kata will fool the body into thinking that it has more oxygen than it does, and increases muscle activity and consumption of Oxygen at the same time. 

Sorry for not answering the first question , but Sauzin Pretty much answered the question better than I could.


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## Sauzin (Jun 26, 2003)

When I was practicing Go-Ju-Ryu Sanchin was done with "heavy breathing".   What they do is tense the neck and the air way in such a way as to make a "heeea" sound.  In Sanchin many Go-Ju practitioners work on exhaling completely after finishing the punch and return block.  They often make a heea then at the end of the movement a "tssste" sound when doing this and tensing their neck to an extreme.  They do this to emphasize and focus the muscle tension (inside and out) that they use to protect themselves form the head down.  You could easily jam the end of a bo into the neck of an experienced Go-Ju Sanchin practitioner and not even phase him.  I have seen some Uechi stylists make an emphasized "Tssssss" sound when they perform the spear hands in their Sanchin.  I suppose some schools differ.

I no longer practice my kata with these breathing techniques, though when my instructor is throwing me around I still use them on occasion when I need to absorb something that involves a great amount of impact.  (This happens quite often now that I think about it).


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## Shuri-te (Jun 29, 2003)

Sauzin,

Do you breathe in and out on every movement, or do you group some movements together and breathe in at the beginning and out across the group?


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## Sauzin (Jun 30, 2003)

Well let me answer this question from 2 directions as Im not sure which specifically you want to know about.  Ill start with describing Sanchin and then with other kata.

The most common way for Sanchin to be practiced in Go-Ju is for there to be two breaths for each movement set.  One for the punch, then a quick inhale and another exhale for the block.  In my school (which represented the minority) we did the movement in one full breath.  We breathed in while retracting the punch, then exhaled 80% when extending the punch and another 20% with the block.  It was said that this was the original way Miyagi used to practice Sanchin, but that is a debated topic.  

The Sanchin that Odo practiced is performed with two breaths.  One for the punch and one for the block.  Of course Odos Sanchin is different in many other ways.  Especially the ending.  I particularly like the dynamic tension Odo practiced.  He had a way of working his muscles tighter, then tighter, then even tighter in rotating wave like motions.

Now for the rest of kata this is a different matter.  There is a full breath for every *emphasized* strike or block, however there are other movements where a partial exhale is performed.    For example in Odos Seisan there are places where a shuffle occurs followed by 3 consecutive punches.  There is a partial exhale on each of the punches with a complete exhale on the last following a ki-iye.  Inhales are performed during transition with emphasis on masking their obvious nature.  So in answer to your question, I guess the second is closest to what we do.  We do group some movements together, but emphasized strikes and blocks have a full exhale associated with them.  Still the rule remains that there is always an exhale on any movement were there is potential for impact, or when a limb is extending or moving outward.  Its just not always a full exhale, this depending on the movement sets timing and emphasis.  

Thank-you and I hope this answered the question.

-Paul


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## Sauzin (Jun 30, 2003)

Another note on Sanchin breathing.

I was discussing this question with my sensei the other day and he brought up another point.  He asked Do you know why Go-Ju has its students breath so loudly?   He answered.  It is so the teacher can hear when the students are breathing or tensing incorrectly.

I found this to be an interesting point.

-Paul


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 30, 2003)

My instructor will oftenl isten to sanchin rather than watch it to hear how much breath is exhaled and if is from the lower abdomen or higher. The sounds are different He has other ways of testing it but thats a diffeent story and not about how we breath.


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## Shuri-te (Jul 1, 2003)

Sauzin,

Thanks for the info on breathing.

What I am trying to better understand regarding the breathing is how often inhaling occurs. 

You wrote that exhales were distributed across several movements in a sequence. That makes great sense to me. Inhale at the beginning of a sequence and exhale through the entire group of movements. 

Some kata has gotten to the point, especially in Japan, where each movement is treated as a unique entity, each with its own inhale and exhale. IMO, this makes little sense as the movements are to be done, in fighting, as a flurry, so one cannot inahle and exhale on each one. In kata, we are trying to replicate what we would do in fighting, right down to the breathing.

I have worked on breathing so an inhale always occurs at the beginning, and crisp exhales occur across the sequence.


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## Sauzin (Jul 2, 2003)

My thoughts exactly.

There are some emphasized movements that get a full breath like a lunge punch or a "1000lb drop", but most do not require a full breath, especially when kata is performed at full speed.  You would hyperventilate otherwise.

Now the challenge in saying that breathing occurs at the beginning of a sequence of moves is defining what is the beginning and what is the end of a sequence.

What I do, usually follows a few guild lines.  Breathing in comes in the transition usually as a movement to the side or away from the opponent occurs, during a transitional movement that is very soft and evasive, or in a preparatory movement just before an emphasized movement with a full breath.     

For example when I perform crescent steps the breath-in occurs as the feet are coming together and you are moving away from the opponent.  Or in Ananaku where about midway through the kata there is a step behind and throw with an elbow thrust, the breath-in occurs during the step behind.  In cases where there is no foot movement between breaths and you have two distinctly emphasized movements, like say in the Nihachi's where you will find a ki-iye punch and then a knife hand block directly afterwards.  The breath-in occurs as the hip shifts the torso to face the new direction or opponent, just before the knife hand block.  Which depending upon the angle of the attacker can actually move your head off line.  

As I understand, it is important not to reveal a constant pattern of when you will breath in and when you will breath out to your opponent.  The timing is such that at the moment your opponent believes you to breath in, sees the opening for an attack, and commits, is the moment that the breath is done and the counter commences.  Subtle changes in evasion and setup then rapid counter attack goes "baaaaaaaaaaah-baaaa-bam!"  The breath in occurs during the first portion, usually an evasion, the second is a setup, and the third is the attack.  Slow, fast, then instantaneous.   This acceleration is always just an instant faster then what the opponent is able to catch up with.  

At least this is the way I've been taught. :asian:


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## Mr.karate (Jul 9, 2003)

Has anyone her heard that the hard breathing done in Sanchin kata can be detremental to a persons health? What are your thoughts on this?

Justin


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## Shuri-te (Jul 9, 2003)

I am not sure it is the breathing. It may be excessive Sanchin itself. In Sanchin you tense your muscles, and when they are tense, bloodflow to the nerves is restricted. Years of practicing Sanchin can slowly damage the nerves. Bishop mentions this in his book.


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## Sauzin (Jul 10, 2003)

This is a bit more controversial of a subject.  I agree with what Shuri-te said but let me add a little.  

Sanchin got the majority of its bad rap from people who, simply put, were performing it incorrectly.  The kata is not as simple as tense up and breath real loud.  There's a specific way, order, and grouping done with the tensing to prevent a lot of the injuries you would other wise incur.  Hemorrhoids, back problems, heart attacks, strokes, and joint pains are among a few things that can occur if you don't know what youre doing.  Sanchin should not be practiced without a qualified instructor giving specific and detailed instruction.  

On another note, I do believe that some degree of damage (what others would call conditioning) is done by practicing Sanchin hard.   Like arm conditioning, Sanchin provides many martial benefits but takes a toll if practiced consistently for years and years.  My instructor does not believe that Sanchin should be practiced hard over the age of 50.  By not practicing "hard" I am referring to many people who eventually learn to practice Sanchin through "tai-chi" like motions.  This does not offer the same conditioning, but can provide the same timing and power generation exercise.

Now you have to understand that there are some Go-Ju and Ueichi guys who will swear that we all have our heads up our rear ends.  That Sanchin can and has been practiced as long as you live (100 + for Okinawans).  They can sight examples of this being the case.  I'm not here to disagree with that.  Personally I think every person ages differently (especially Americans).  I'm going to continue to practice Sanchin until by body tells me the toll is too great.  If I never feel that way then, fine by me.  But I'm definitely going to be listening.  

-Paul Holsinger


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## Mr.karate (Jul 10, 2003)

Personaly I agree with what you are saying I just brought it up because it was something I read in an article and just wanted to know how others feal about it.


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## Shuri-te (Jul 11, 2003)

Sauzin and Mr. Karate: 

Great discussion. 

My information in my post above comes from Mark Bishop's text Okinawan Karate. I can't do it justice so let me produce most of his thoughts on the subject. In his section called *Goju-ryu and health*, he writes the following:



> During the course of my research I met quite a few karate teachers who berated Goju-ryu for its general hardness and warned me to discontinue the training (which I eventually did) or face high blood pressure-related illnesses and a premature death. These critics gained much of their visual evidence from watching unskilled practitioners doing dynamic-tension demonstrations of Sanchin. In this exercise all the body muscles are hardened into one rigid structure as the sweating demonstrator performs the Sanchin moves as if pushing against a heavy weight, whilst being punched and kicked by an associate and issuing a loud guttural 'hiss'.
> 
> During the Sanchin exercise, I was told, certain blood vessels are shut off at the limb joints, the blood cannot flow freely, reverses and accumulates raound the chest, neck and shoulders causing a red flush in that area. Blood vessels of the neck and arms become swollen as the heart tries in vain to keep the circulation going and forces the blood up to the brain. The result of the exertion on the heart, blood vessels and internal organs is not considered by the critics to be good for the health and regular daily practice is said to be the cause of high blood pressure and obesity of Goju-ryu practitioners over the age of 40. Rumour has it that some older practitioners have difficulty lifting their arms higher than their shoulders.
> 
> Although this type of dynamic-tension Sanchin is fast becoming popular, I could find no really convincing explanations for its practice, apart from its being a crowd gatherer and somewhat dangerous body builder. Whether or not Chojun Miyagi encouraged dynamic-tension and the resulting overall hardening process of Goju-ryu is not clear, but the fact that premature deaths through illnesses associated with high blood pressure are common among Goju-ryu practitioners cannot be disputed.



I speculate that some Sanchin with dynamic tension was always practiced. But that is an important qualifier. Some. I think like anything else, some activities done in moderation can have health implications when done to excess. 

Bishop also writes that "Practice at Higaonna's dojo was tedious with the first three or four years being spent doing Sanchin only and, although to those whe persisted Higaonna taught much, many students dropped out through plain boredom."

This to me says so much. Let's assume that this Sanchin did have dynamic tension. Done with intensity and high repitition, it is far less likely to harm young strong individuals over a few year period, than it would over a very long period, say 30 to 50 years. Second, it gave these students a great foundation in rootedness, power and balance, and finally, it weeded out those looking to learn how to fight, not those looking to study the *way.* 

I personally think the practice of Sanchin kata, *repetitively*, over many years doesn't make that much sense. Of the 8 or 9 kata Higaonna brought back from China, (Some sources attribute Saifa to Miyagi) the "sanchin" movements (three forward steps, blocking and striking are found in four of them. (Seisan, Shishochin, Sanseiru and Suparenpei.) The closing motion (circular block) is found at the end of Saifa, Seisan and Kururunpha, and Suparenpei makes extensive use of it as well. 

So if you practice the other kata, you achieve balance. All the movements of Sanchin, but rather than a lot of dynamic tension, just enough to get some benefit, but not, IMO, to cause health concerns. Because it is done so briefly, and then followed by normal karate movements, this just might not have any ill-effect.


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## Mr.karate (Jul 11, 2003)

For different styles things maybe different but in Chito ryu I have been taught that sanchin can be done once a day and it should never be done longer then seven minutes. Done this way it is said to be very healthy for a person. I also believe that people must realise that there is always going to be critics about every type of training that a person can do. To me sanchin critics saying it isn't healthy are just like critics of makiwara who say doing it can give you different things such as arthritis. In the end each person has to pick away of doing things that fits them best and fits what they believe.


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## Sandifer (Jul 31, 2003)

IMHO Sanchin is no less healthy for a person who power lifts. If you practice with too much tension I think you will find how damaging the kata can be. When I first learned this kata years ago, I was told never to exert more than 75% tension. Too much is unhealthy. My teacher said it caused him kidney stones from too much force on the inner organs.


Sanchin breathing in one regard is for toning the internal organs as well as massaging them to simulation certain actions within the body. Various stances and breathing methods develop and vitalize the various internal energy networks of the nervous system. (Among other things) 

As well certain stances will also open and close energy channels in the body. Coordinated breathing and stances, and mental intention bring about several biological factors important to dealing with confrontations in a composed manner. In other words controlling the fight/flight response. 

This is to say nothing of the development of tendon and muscle strength for the physical manipulation of the enviroment in a powerful way. (ie physically controlling your opponent or being controlled by him).

Strong breathing (Ibuki/Nagare) is like blowing on an ember within dry twigs or a bellows into a fire. You need it really hot if you are going to forge anything well. Just remember different breathing methods accomplish different results. 


Sandifer M. Deer


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## Shinzu (Aug 4, 2003)

i breath in while moving and out when i strike.  i studied shotokan in the past so i know what you mean.  i also lived in hicksville NY for 22 years.  small world.  i know hempstead very well


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## gojukylie (Aug 7, 2003)

Being a Goju practitioner, I concentrate heavily on breath and the effects it has on my techniques. It is especially noticeable in Kata Sanchin as you are well aware but have you thought how your breath effects the timing of your movements. Especially in Kata Seeinchin. The breathing will contol your movements as follows,
In breath, - --    Withdrawing technique (chambering)
Out Breath  ----- Forward technique (Punch eg.)

Kata Tensho, is a perfect example. (Flowing hands)

There are also different levels of breathing. According to Chi-Kung (chinese breathing) you have different depths at which you breath and they have different effects. Interesting reading if you chase up Chi-Kung text. It might answer more questions than you originally thought.:asian:


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