# Dan Ranks In The Bujinkan



## MJS (May 10, 2007)

I'll start off by saying that I don't know much about BBT, so this question is simply out of curiosity, not meant to start any flames. 

In many arts, the ranks seem to top out at 10th Dan.  In the Bujinkan, I noticed people progressing past that.  It seems to top out at 15th Dan.  Is this just for the Bujinkan or does this happen in the other X-Kan arts as well?

What is the meaning behind the ranks past 10th?  Are there tests for these ranks or are the given based on contributions to the art, etc.?  In my art, Kenpo, the upper ranks are usually based on that...time in grade, contributions, etc.

Looking forward to your replies! 

Mike


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## Kreth (May 10, 2007)

Technically, they are not really 11-15th dan, but subdivisions based on the elements, earth, water, fire, wind, and void. Our soke has described them as being roughly equivalent to the koryu licensing levels (menkyo kaiden, et al).


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 10, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Technically, they are not really 11-15th dan, but subdivisions based on the elements, earth, water, fire, wind, and void. Our soke has described them as being roughly equivalent to the koryu licensing levels (menkyo kaiden, et al).


 
What Kreth said.  They are degree's of 10th Dan in essence based upon the elements earth, water, fire, wind and void.  As to why someone moves through these levels. :idunno:   That is a question best answered by Hatsumi Sensei.


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## Kage-Ronin (May 10, 2007)

Hi,
The following information should help:
The rank structure in our organization blends the two Japanese grading systems, the classical menkyo system and the newer dan-i ( kyu/dan ) system. Essentially there are nine kyu ranks and ten dan ranks (with five levels contained within tenth dan). Mukyu refers to unranked practitioners. Mukyu wear white belts, kyu grades wear green, and dan ranked practitioners black. The dan ranks are divided as follows: 
Mudansha: Kyukyu to Ikkyu (ninth class to first class) 
- Ten &#22825; - Heaven: Shodan to Godan (first degree to fifth degree) 
- Chi &#22320; - Earth: Rokudan to Judan (sixth degree to tenth degree) 
- Jin &#20154; - Man: Judan level menkyo divided into levels: 
Judan Menkyo = 10th dan 
Chii Happo Biken Menkyo Shihan (Earth) = "11th dan" 
Suii Happo Biken Menkyo Shihan (Water) = "12th dan" 
Kai Happo Biken Menkyo Shihan (Fire) = "13th dan" 
Fuui Happo Biken Menkyo Shihan (Wind) = "14th dan" 
Kuui Happo Biken Menkyo Shihan (Void) = "15th dan" 
The instructor certification is divided into two levels. Shidoshi are fully licensed instructors. Shidoshiho are assistant instructors. A practitioner can apply for their shidoshi instructor certification at fifth dan. Shidoshiho are junior grade instructors possessing at least a first degree black belt that are under the supervision, and have received permission to teach, of a shidoshi. Shihan is generaly reserved for those instructors ranked at Judan and above, and implies that the instructor is a teacher of teachers,' although the instructor is not called as such during training. 



> As to why someone moves through these levels. :idunno: That is a question best answered by Hatsumi Sensei.


 
I think Mr VanCise hits the nail on the head otherwise. Good luck.


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## Miles (May 10, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> What Kreth said. They are degree's of 10th Dan in essence based upon the elements earth, water, fire, wind and void. As to why someone moves through these levels. :idunno: That is a question best answered by Hatsumi Sensei.


 
I also noticed in an advertisement in Black Belt that a gentleman was a 15th degree.  Is this an honorary degree or is there a test for it?

Miles


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## Dale Seago (May 10, 2007)

Excellent explanation from Kage-Ronin. A bit more at my website, here:

http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks

The only Bujinkan-wide formal rank test is for 5th dan, the point at which one can be certified as an instructor. That test used to be given only by Hatsumi sensei, but he now allows those at 15th dan to administer it as well -- but, so far, only in Japan and only in his presence (with a singular exception or two where he's allowed it to be done outside Japan).

The next major transition is to 10th dan, and that promotion is sort of a "committee action" in the sense that Hatsumi sensei doesn't do it unless he first has a written request from at least three instructors already at 10th dan or higher -- perhaps he wants to be sure that those reaching this rank are able to "play well with others". 

The last five ranks come directly from Hatsumi sensei, on his own judgment/criteria and timing.

They've been described as subdivisions with the 10th dan; however, the _menkyo_ actually do read "11th dan", "12th dan", etc. up through 15th. I can attest to that as I've "collected the whole set".


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## Dale Seago (May 10, 2007)

Miles said:


> . . .15th degree.  Is this an honorary degree or is there a test for it?



No test, as I indicated. But given that _jugodan_ are able to give the 5th dan test and that the official Bujinkan Guidelines (http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/bjk/guidelines.htm) state that "A 15th dan will be considered to be a true shihan". . .no, not honorary.

BTW, at the time the quote above was written there were not yet any in the Bujinkan, in Japan or elsewhere. The rank structure going to 15th dan was in place at least a decade or so before anyone actually reached that level. The first promotions to this rank were in April of 2004.


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## bydand (May 10, 2007)

Thanks for the insight Dale!  I was hoping you would post in this thread because I was wondering about this as well, and knew you to be one of the 15th Dans out there.


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## The Game (Jun 8, 2007)

Saw a comment that Hatsumi had onsidered raising the limit to 21 somewhere.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 8, 2007)

The Game said:


> Saw a comment that Hatsumi had onsidered raising the limit to 21 somewhere.


 
Well I have not heard anything like that from my sources in Japan.  

However, one thing is for sure Soke as the leader of Budo Taijutsu can do what he deems best for this art.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 8, 2007)

I found this on wiki


> There were originally 10 dan levels, as with many other martial arts using the ky&#363;/dan system, but this was changed by s&#333;ke Masaaki Hatsumi to 15 dan levels. It was once said that Hatsumi commented that in feudal times, a man was deemed a man ready to go to war at fifteen years of age , hence the 15 dan levels. He then went on to joke that now with the mature age being 21, maybe he should raise it again.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 8, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I found this on wiki


 
I would take that as a joke and not something substantial.  Plus one has to wonder who put it there and if they actually heard that or if it was interpreted or if it was ever really said.  I can see it said in a joking manner but I was not there.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 8, 2007)

Pretty much.   People get all bent over ranks. It's a means of keeping score in an organization. No one's ever been able to tell me who the beetter person is, the 1st dan karate, 1st dan arnis, 1st dan ninja, etc.  They all say the same thing "Well I gotta see them first".   So, it always comes down to the person, not the number.

Now that said, my impression of the few high-dan Buj. folks I've seen has been, they are good. I can't say I get the same opinion of my local sokedoke.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 8, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Pretty much. People get all bent over ranks. It's a means of keeping score in an organization. No one's ever been able to tell me who the beetter person is, the 1st dan karate, 1st dan arnis, 1st dan ninja, etc. They all say the same thing "Well I gotta see them first". So, it always comes down to the person, not the number.
> 
> Now that said, my impression of the few high-dan Buj. folks I've seen has been, they are good. I can't say I get the same opinion of my local sokedoke.


 
Hey Bob you are right on regarding your impression and also that you need to see people to actually know where they are.  Within the Bujinkan Hatsumi Sensei can do whatever he wants and that is fit as it should be.  If he came up with a 200th Dan ranking tomorrow it would not phase me as I am not chasing rank.


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## mystic warrior (Jun 21, 2007)

Ok what about those that are in the bujinkan that want more rank.
Only because behind each rank there is more knowledge. And that is the only reason that they want the higher rank.
Not so much for the ego.
But then again this could be said for any art not just the bujikan.


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