# Interest in an EPAK specific forum?



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2003)

Clyde inquired if we would consider spinning off an EPAK specific forum from Kenpo-General due to a large number of EPAK folks here.  As always, we try to meet the requests of our members.

So, Should MT have an EPAK-specific forum?

Ideas on a forum 'charter' also are apreciated.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 6, 2003)

For those that voted no on this, is there a particular reason why?   I've explained why I think there should be, at the least, you should explain why there shouldn't be.    It's not like it won't be accessible to read or post, but would keep the topics in the genre of EPAK.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## sierra don (Oct 6, 2003)

I am new to Kenpo and to this Forum and I voted *YES*.....
I think it makes it easier to view/indentify information specific to your style...think of it as "Economy Of Motion" for the Forum viewer/poster.

Don


Ok yeah.....Great site you guys have here.


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 6, 2003)

The volume of posts is less when looking at a specific forum that way.  I know CANAM did this, but look at KenpoNet and the amount of traffic that drives through it by not being restrictive.  

The main thing about amount of traffic is not volume, but rather that we can learn from the diversity of individuals participating.  Are we so arrogant as to think that other styles or systems have nothing to teach us?  I sure hope not.

It is a great convenience for us to JUST look in the EPAK fora, but the same is said of others, they only look in their system-specific forums when in a hurry.  Looking at other forums gives you some idea of how this works.  It can be days before you get a response in some of the "Kenpo Related" or subsets when broken down to far.  A silly example would be this "Thread is only for Inward Blocks", now let's have a Forum for Inward Block, done by TRACO Kenpo people only.  

Weigh and balance the input, with the desired output.  I want more participation, not less.

-MB


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *The volume of posts is less when looking at a specific forum that way.  I know CANAM did this, but look at KenpoNet and the amount of traffic that drives through it by not being restrictive.
> 
> The main thing about amount of traffic is not volume, but rather that we can learn from the diversity of individuals participating.  Are we so arrogant as to think that other styles or systems have nothing to teach us?  I sure hope not.
> ...



That's the reason I asked for seperation, I want to look at what I do specifically and could care less what the other TKD, Kung Fu, Chink Chunk Pow people are talking about.    Take a look at my posts and see how many you see outside of Kenpo/Kempo, I think I found 2 that weren't.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 6, 2003)

Maybe you should just make a forum for Clyde.  That way he can revel in his own splendor and brilliance.  Yes, perhaps Clyde should have his own pulpit where things like groundfighting and weapons training aren't allowed.  Then the world would be right again.

Sorry, I tend to agree with Michael Billings.  By subcategorizing too much you will kill the flow of the forum, which by comparison to earlier times has been rather slow lately.  Also, how do you distinguish who or what is actually EPAK.  Is the IKKA EPAK?  Or is it the material?  If so is EPAK solely based on techniques and forms?  If this is the case then do you include people who are doing older versions of EPAK (32 tech system)?  Do they consider people who don't do the the 32 tech system EPAK?  What about those who teach a majority of the techniques but have cut out some material?  Don't they still teach EPAK?  Maybe not in its entirety, but is it not still EPAK?  

Or are the EPAK techniques inconsequential, merely a vehicle for teaching important concepts and principles?  If so then you would have to acknowledge all of the other kenpo associations that teach these principles and let them play on the forum as well.  This in turn brings us right back to the beginning, or actually right back to where we are now.  I think what Clyde means is that he wants a forum where he gets to pick and choose who gets to play and when he doesn't agree with what you have to say he can simply relegate you to the domain of non-EPAK practitioners.  "Well if you don't do this, then you aren't really EPAK...... Be gone."

Yeah, that sounds like a great idea to me.  :shrug:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Maybe you should just make a forum for Clyde.  That way he can revel in his own splendor and brilliance.  Yes, perhaps Clyde should have his own pulpit where things like groundfighting and weapons training aren't allowed.  Then the world would be right again.
> 
> I think what Clyde means is that he wants a forum where he gets to pick and choose who gets to play and when he doesn't agree with what you have to say he can simply relegate you to the domain of non-EPAK practitioners.  "Well if you don't do this, then you aren't really EPAK...... Be gone."
> ...



Yes, it does sound like a good idea, from an anonypussy as well.

Clyde


----------



## Bill Lear (Oct 6, 2003)

*Clyde said Anonypussy! HA HA HA!* :lol:


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 6, 2003)

Clyde that might sound a little more demeaning if it came from someone who could actually work the material.  I've seen you move and it definately wasn't anything to write home about.  Good luck with your new forum.


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 6, 2003)

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Clyde that might sound a little more demeaning if it came from someone who could actually work the material.  I've seen you move and it definately wasn't anything to write home about.  Good luck with your new forum. *



Are you jealous because you don't know or don't do the EPAK system?   Gotta be a reason for this hostility, anonymously no less.

Clyde


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2003)

I lean toward giving this a try, but I am concerned that the conversations will be less valuable without the discussions and, frankly, disagreements of having people with different views look at it. Without disagreements and differences, what will people talk about?

I also am a bit concerned about the orothodoxy issues--who will judge who is truly doing EPAK and who isn't?


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I lean toward giving this a try, but I am concerned that the conversations will be less valuable without the discussions and, frankly, disagreements of having people with different views look at it. Without disagreements and differences, what will people talk about?
> 
> I also am a bit concerned about the orothodoxy issues--who will judge who is truly doing EPAK and who isn't? *



I don't do either version of Kenpo, yet I say go for it. It there are enough hits, then it'll stick around, if not, then it'll go away. Survival of the fittest.

I think it could work because we have Filipino MA, and Modern Arnis here, and it works great. Why? Because we have a ton of people who do Modern Arnis here that can talk exclusively about that.

I don't think orthodoxy SHOULD be an issue here. A lot of people post on Modern Arnis who aren't. There is nobody "screening" them, yet it still ends with us having meaningful discussions. 

I would hope that even the most die hard of EPAK adherents would be open minded enough to not try to kick everyone out who wasn't EPAK, but I don't know.

I think that it would be worth a try, though.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 6, 2003)

> Without disagreements and differences, what will people talk about?
> 
> I also am a bit concerned about the orothodoxy issues--who will judge who is truly doing EPAK and who isn't?



Two very excellent points.

I study in what could be considered an EPAK derivative which, in my opinion, is better.  That's my opinion, something I'm entitled to have.  The system I study carries some of the original EPAK technique names, but in most cases the sequences aren't the same, and where they are the same the techs are executed in a manner unlike anything in EPAK.  

So who decides if I'm close enough to EPAK to discuss kenpo in this particular forum?

Here's another question for you.  If Clyde and his guys are doing EPAK, what is the IKKA doing?  Are they not doing EPAK as well?  Funny but Larry Kongaika seems to be teaching some new things to his IKKA group that weren't, historically, taught in EPAK and they are beginning to adopt it into their system.  Does this mean that the IKKA, SGM Ed Parker's association, isn't doing EPAK? or does it mean that you guys who aren't doing the new IKKA material aren't doing EPAK?  It goes back to the not so easy to answer question of what characterizes EPAK.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 6, 2003)

> I don't think orthodoxy SHOULD be an issue here. A lot of people post on Modern Arnis who aren't. There is nobody "screening" them, yet it still ends with us having meaningful discussions.



If this is the case than what is the point of subdividing the category?  Clyde is requesting a forum specifically for EPAK:


> That's the reason I asked for seperation, I want to look at what I do specifically and could care less what the other TKD, Kung Fu, Chink Chunk Pow people are talking about.



How would subdividing the category of kenpo any further keep these individuals from posting on that forum?  

Hey give it a shot and see how it goes, but I think you'll find the same problem there as you would in here


----------



## Elfan (Oct 6, 2003)

I feel that "Ed Parker's American Kenpo" has become a vague enough term that it doesn't really describe an art any more specifically than saying "Kenpo."  I personally sometimes feel a greater kinship with totally different systems of thinking and training (JKD and MMA) than I do with other EPAK practitioners.


----------



## michaeledward (Oct 6, 2003)

I think that 'Sub-Catagorization' just makes things more difficult to find. While the conversation is going on, it is easy enough to follow, but 3 months later, when you have to look something up, where was that posted again?

Also, although I believe I am studying Ed Parker's lineage, I am learning a 16 technique system. From what I have seen here, this was never formally accepted by Mr. Parker ... does that disqualify me?

But, on the other hand, my instructor studies with Mr. Planas ... is that close enough to be considered EPAK ? Hmm... 

All these questions... that don't lend themselves to easy answers.

Then again... is there something that I can learn from a Chinese Kenpo practictioner, or a Tracy practitioner ... why would I want to leave good information aside, just because it was not handed down through Ed Parker.

Mr. Planas has told me 'What is useful and what is useless, will make itself know through time, practice and logic'. Therefore, lets keep everything in one Kenpo bucket.

Thanks for listening.

Mike


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> The main thing about amount of traffic is not volume, but rather that we can learn from the diversity of individuals participating.  Are we so arrogant as to think that other styles or systems have nothing to teach us?  I sure hope not.
> 
> I agree with Mr. Billings!  Personally, I enjoy the diversity, and feel that we  can learn something.  By saying that something is not good or not effective cuz its not Kenpo, is being very closed minded.
> ...


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *If this is the case than what is the point of subdividing the category?  Clyde is requesting a forum specifically for EPAK:
> *



The threads specifically pertain to Modern Arnis, but other people who aren't Modern Arnis can post. It seems to work out just fine. 

But, I will admit that I am not entirely sure what Clyde is looking for. If he is looking for an EPAK forum that only EPAK purists are allowed to browse and talk on, then I don't think it will work out well. If he is looking for a forum that talks about subjects that specifically pertain to EPAK, yet anyone can browse or talk (like the Modern Arnis Forum), then I think it could possibly work.


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Clyde that might sound a little more demeaning if it came from someone who could actually work the material.  I've seen you move and it definately wasn't anything to write home about.  Good luck with your new forum. *



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Mike


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I don't do either version of Kenpo, yet I say go for it. It there are enough hits, then it'll stick around, if not, then it'll go away. Survival of the fittest.
> 
> I think it could work because we have Filipino MA, and Modern Arnis here, and it works great. Why? Because we have a ton of people who do Modern Arnis here that can talk exclusively about that.
> ...



Good post Paul!  Unfortunately, I dont think it will work though, due to some people thinking that they are above and beyond everybody else.  I have looked in both of the Filipino forums that you mention and really dont see the closed mindedness and arrogance that you see in some of the Kenpo forums.  In the Filipino forums, you have many groups that are open to sharing their ideas.  Different arts, but pretty much the same concepts.  On the other side you have the Kenpo Gen, and Tech. forums.  Many different people doing Kenpo, be it, EPAK, Tracy, Mills.  The only difference there, is that unless you are from the might Tatum branch, then you are looked down upon.

Mike


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Good post Paul!  Unfortunately, I dont think it will work though, due to some people thinking that they are above and beyond everybody else.  I have looked in both of the Filipino forums that you mention and really dont see the closed mindedness and arrogance that you see in some of the Kenpo forums.  In the Filipino forums, you have many groups that are open to sharing their ideas.  Different arts, but pretty much the same concepts.  On the other side you have the Kenpo Gen, and Tech. forums.  Many different people doing Kenpo, be it, EPAK, Tracy, Mills.  The only difference there, is that unless you are from the might Tatum branch, then you are looked down upon.
> 
> Mike *



Yea, see, I have been sheltered from the Kenpo World. I have no idea what would work or not. FMA might be an entirely different animal then Kenpo.

By the way...you quoted kenpo yahoo, but I think you still were refering to my last post, given your response.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2003)

The question of "What is EPAK" is a serious one.

To me, with a very casual exposure to the art, its all Kenpo to me.  So I have to wonder why segment it?  There are other forums who give every flavor a spot.

Another concern is the focus of it.  As has been indicated, how welcome will non-EPAK be to ask questions?  How serious or how irrelivent will things be?

How tightly defined will it be?  After all, Tracy Kenpos roots are in Ed Parkers art.  Will it focus on 32, 24 or 16?  Which seniors are 'cannon' and which are not?

Done right, this can be a good thing.  Done wrong, an elitist clusterfrak that only creates problems.

I've had the pleasure of speaking with many of the 'names', and in a few cases being on the floor with em.  I don't know too much on the historys n bad blood issues.  I have found them to be a great group of people, everyone well intended and dedicated to the art, their vision, and Parkers memory.  MT isn't for LT, or DC alone, but all of those who study the art and its branches that lead back to Ed Parker Sr.

Regardless of what we do, that mission must be the one that guides the rest.

:asian:


----------



## Fastmover (Oct 6, 2003)

I dont understand Why Mr. Tatum doesnt start his own forum?
That would seem to be a good thing for Clyde and many others
that post from his association. 

I also thought Clyde had his own forum as well, but I could
mistaken. If not he should!

Just a Thought


----------



## don bohrer (Oct 6, 2003)

Can I comment on EPAK topics in this new zone? Is this a keep out zone unless your EPAK? Or will this be like one of those dark alleys you could get shot going down?

don


----------



## Fastmover (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _
> *Can I comment on EPAK topics in this new zone?
> 
> don *



Someone needs to define EPAK?


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _
> *Can I comment on EPAK topics in this new zone? Is this a keep out zone unless your EPAK? *



We don't have fora like that (apart from the Hosted Fora). Anyone would be able to post--but, topicality could and would be enforced.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Brother John (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *We don't have fora like that (apart from the Hosted Fora). Anyone would be able to post--but, topicality could and would be enforced.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *


OK, what about people who practice versions of Kenpo that draw their lineage directly from SGM Parker, but are now different... such as the one I practice... AKKI Kenpo.
I understand, by your post Arnisador, that I'd be able to post/reply/question...whatever, but what if I comment on something that's is in the AKKI but not the original IKKA material?
Will that be restricted?
Just wondering.
Thanks
Your Brother
John
PS: Anyone can reply to this, not just Arnisador.


----------



## Shiatsu (Oct 6, 2003)

That would be the problem with it.  I believe AKKI to be a style of EPAK, much like kajukenbo has different branches.  It makes no sense to me.:asian:


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *OK, what about people who practice versions of Kenpo that draw their lineage directly from SGM Parker, but are now different... such as the one I practice... AKKI Kenpo.
> I understand, by your post Arnisador, that I'd be able to post/reply/question...whatever, but what if I comment on something that's is in the AKKI but not the original IKKA material?
> Will that be restricted?
> ...



IMO, I would have to say that unless you are talking about strictly EPAK, then yeah, you'll unfortunately take some heat.  Does it make a difference to me?  Not at all.  Kenpo is Kenpo.  Unfortunately, you'll find people that will say that due to the fact that you are doing AKKI, it is not true Parker Kenpo.  I dont know what material is taught in Mr. Mills version.  I have looked at his web site, and think that he has much to offer.  But, to answer your question, I'd have to say yes, unless its true EPAK, and even more specific, EPAK from the Tatum branch, you'll never hear the end of it.

Mike


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 6, 2003)

I believe what Clyde is after is a place where, those that want ....... can talk shop, with the same technique name, forms, sets, basics, etc. from a traditional EPAK curriculum format.  

Not that there is anything against anyone else but we can talk exactly about something without having to "cross reference" names or "changed things" but rather technical points or hints or whatever.  

We are not "deleting" any other forums just adding a "tighter" catagory.  We obviously can still go to any other as well.....

Just my opinion, of course.

:asian:


----------



## Brother John (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I believe what Clyde is after is a place where, those that want ....... can talk shop, with the same technique name, forms, sets, basics, etc. from a traditional EPAK curriculum format.
> 
> Not that there is anything against anyone else but we can talk exactly about something without having to "cross reference" names or "changed things" but rather technical points or hints or whatever.
> ...


OK:
Why can't this be done on the forums we already have???
(BTW: I think it IS already being done)
honest question.
Your Brother
John


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 6, 2003)

I too am a practitioner of an EPAK derivative. My conversations with Clyde and more specificly Robert, have shown that Some of the things we base our training on such as the equation formula, or the eight considerations( or cycle there of) are considered meainingless homilies by others within EPAK. My point is that the self appointed Kenpo police may not be qualified to comment on parts of Parkers system thy feel is unimportant or not as important as whatever they happen to be into. I havent seen a Kenpo Dragon telling people to go cry to mama these days but now we got some serious name calling. If the name callers put themselves in charge and operate as they have been on just this thread then the site is doomed.
Sean


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2003)

A key point here is that in order for your opinion to count, a vote must be cast on the poll above.

Yes, No, or no-opinion. 

Thanks!


----------



## Elfan (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I believe what Clyde is after is a place where, those that want ....... can talk shop, with the same technique name, forms, sets, basics, etc. from a traditional EPAK curriculum format.   *



I enjoy this EPAK specific shop talk to, but isn't that what the Technical forum is for already?


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _*
> I enjoy this EPAK specific shop talk to, but isn't that what the Technical forum is for already?
> *



No, not in my opinion..... anyone can voice their thoughts there from any Kenpo dicipline.......  this will be a more strict EPAK Room.

Those that have changed the material or broken off and "blended" could read and of course comment but it would be more for those in the same "LIKE" curriculums (that were under Ed Parker originally.....32 - 24 - 16)......

:asian:


----------



## Brother John (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *That would be the problem with it.  I believe AKKI to be a style of EPAK, much like kajukenbo has different branches.  It makes no sense to me.:asian: *


I know exactly what you are saying Shiatsu!
To me American Kenpo Karate, descending from Ed Parker Sr., is all in ONE category... but many don't agree with that.
I understand, but don't agree with, them. 

There is a STRONG elitist vein in Kenpo that runs deep and is enduring.
I say this in all humility, knowing that:
A: I'll upset many, even friends, by saying this.
B: It may sound like I'm insulting the art/system I Love.
C: I'm Right.

Sometimes other martial artists, when I talk to them face to face, seem to be put on the defensive just by telling them that I'm a Kenpoist. You have to ask yourself why.

I'm starting to think that this new forum would be nothing more than an 'exclusive club' for the elitests... with rigid boundaries on  'membership'. I hope not, but I'm afraid it would be... or may degenerate over time to that.

I hope I'm wrong.
Your Brother
John
PS: Please forgive the pessimism.


----------



## Brother John (Oct 6, 2003)

As I asked before:
What would it accomplish that can't be accomplished with what we already have?

I think this is a valid question.

Your Brother
John


----------



## MartialArtsGuy (Oct 6, 2003)

I voted "yes". At this time I would like a moderator to subtract my vote from yes and make it one for "no" Thank you


----------



## Brother John (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *No, not in my opinion..... anyone can voice their thoughts there from any Kenpo dicipline.......  this will be a more strict EPAK Room.
> *



That pretty much solidifies my point.
In what we have now "anyone can voice their thoughts from any Kenpo discipline"
In waht is proposed: "...will be a more strict EPAK Room."

In a nut-shell... my point.
As a wise Kenpoist said recently, no one source has it all.
We can all learn from one another.

With ALL due respect for you, your rank, your time and your history in the art Mr. Conaster...
I don't get it.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John (Oct 6, 2003)

Will the Wing-Chun forum segregate into those who follow William Cheung and those who follow Leung Ting? ...and another for the different blends???

Will the Philipino Martial arts general segregate into: Escrima, Dumog, Balintawak, Arnis, Kali, Doce Pares, and many more?

Will the Karate forum be broken into ALL the different schools?
Okinawan?
Japanese?
Shuri-te, GoJu, Shorin, Shotokan, Ishin Ryu, Wado Ryu...
all different forums?

Think of the variety and different perspectives that wouldn't be shared.
This prospect disturbs me some.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 6, 2003)

No offense or disrespect taken or given.......



> _Originally posted by Bro John _*
> As a wise Kenpoist said recently, no one source has it all.
> *



The discussion is just about "ADDING" a forum...... geeze you act like you are being left out of something...... 

From my perspective or opinion if you will, it just allows the freedom from having to explain from scratch, what the Web of Knowledge, 8 considerations, 3 divisions of the Art, Analytical Study of Motion, EP's Principles or Concepts, Universal Pattern, Forms, Sets, Techniques, yada yada, is to someone (in [some] "Ed Parker lineage" that does NOT or HAS NOT been taught it), because they never were taught by a Black Belt that actually trained under Ed Parker directly or even picked up a copy of the Infinite Insights and read for themselves what he outlined.



> _Originally posted by Bro John _*
> We can all learn from one another.
> *



No doubt!!  I agree totally..... but what does that have to do with a different room?  You can still come in and frequent it....... there will be NO Blocked out controls!



> _Originally posted by Bro John _*
> Think of the variety and different perspectives that wouldn't be shared. This prospect disturbs me some.
> *



Why wouldn't they?  Again, you are not being silenced or left out..... just we would be more specific to the Mother Art Ed Parker Left and not an adaptation complete with different names and such.... 



> _Originally posted by Bro John _*
> Will the Wing-Chun forum segregate into those who follow William Cheung and those who follow Leung Ting? ...and another for the different blends???
> 
> Will the Philipino Martial arts general segregate into: Escrima, Dumog, Balintawak, Arnis, Kali, Doce Pares, and many more?
> ...



Come on........ let's not get SILLY!!!!!!!!!!!!  First off look at the post count in the Kenpo section...... if the other forums had that many posts....... then sure they would possibly be split just the same...... Come on John....



> _Originally posted by Bro John _*
> With ALL due respect for you, your rank, your time and your history in the art Mr. Conaster...
> I don't get it.
> *



Well, as you say.....I "don't get it [you not understanding what I am saying] either!

:rofl:


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2003)

Anyone would be able to post in the resulting forum.

We would need a description that focused on _what_ could be discussed, not _who_ could do the discussing.

As to how to enforce topicality--I certainly couldn't split those hairs. I'd suggest having a judoka moderate it--someone demonstrable neutral. Give the person a suitable forum description and let him or her do his or her best to sort things out.

I understand why people would want this. It may be that a Hosted Forum is a better solution, but it may also be that this can be made to work. Can someone propose a description?

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 6, 2003)

We might as well try it and see what happens. I love a good fight.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> *I voted "yes". At this time I would like a moderator to subtract my vote from yes and make it one for "no" Thank you *



This can be done. However, I haven't received a request like this before. We're discussing it now.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## don bohrer (Oct 6, 2003)

I voted yes, am not sure if it's good for MT. I think we should try it for three months. If it's more trouble than it's worth then rejoin it to the main Kenpo forum after the new year. 

don


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _*
> I think we should try it.
> *



If after a period of time (what ever "Kaith" wants - remember HE owns the board!) he deems it not working or redundent or whatever, he reverts back to what we have now.

:asian:


----------



## Fastmover (Oct 7, 2003)

If the good folks who created the forum decide to set up a
EPAK Kenpo forum, then I have a request.

It should be called, "TRADITIONAL ED PARKER KENPO."

WOW.............cough.............Hmmm!


----------



## Shiatsu (Oct 7, 2003)

As if there isn't enough animosity and politics in kenpo already.  The only person who taught EPAK was Ed Parker.  Mr. Mills teachs his version, Doc Chapel teaches his version, Mr. Tatum teaches his, Mr. Pick teaches his and so on and so forth.  

Obviously the kenpo police feel the need to alienate themselves, from other knowledgeable people on the art.  :soapbox:


----------



## Bill Lear (Oct 7, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Fastmover *
> _If the good folks who created the forum decide to set up a
> EPAK Kenpo forum, then I have a request.
> 
> ...



Why isn't Paul Mills Kenpo System worthy of his name. I know he's changed, forms, sets, and techniques for his guys... and they seem to work rather well for them. Why should Ed Parker accept responsibility for Mr. Mill's innovations?


----------



## Shiatsu (Oct 7, 2003)

Do you know how many of the upper belts that GM Parker promoted have changed certain things?  Yet they still call it EPAK or American kenpo.  It is called respect:asian:


----------



## cdhall (Oct 7, 2003)

I voted Yes and here is partly why.

I don't want to be in an EPAK themed thread but then have to stop and tell Touch of Death or anyone else that is supposed to know this system, that Ed Parker had a chapter in Infinite Insights Book One called "Chapter 11 Preparatory Considerations" which goes on to list Eight of them between page 101 and 112.

And I do find it offensive that someone would then come along and dispute that this is a documented fact.

I would like to be able to go to discuss my "System" somewhere that I can be reasonably sure the people I'm talking to are speaking my language.  I don't think it is too much to ask for a forum on Ed Parker's American Kenpo to require people to be familar with or have access to Ed Parker's writings.

Part of the problem with such a forum of course is that Kenpo has become a term like Karate and Kung-Fu as some have mentioned, but which I think is something Mr. Parker wanted from at least the time he put up his sign reading "Kenpo Karate" instead of just "Karate."

Nevertheless, as this is a path frought with potentially unending problems. Perhaps the forum could be named, not "Traditional Ed Parker Kenpo" but "Academic Ed Parker Kenpo" and some criteria for discussing anything in the forum could be that any term, technique or move has to be 

A. Traceable to Mr. Parker himself (or a First Generation Black Belt?)
AND
B. Documented in a Book or Video.

Even this will cause problems because I could still be in a discussion with a Kenpo 2000 and be lost because Mr. Hancock has published several videos that I have not seen.  

I also don't know where thls would leave people like Martin Wheeler who was not graded by Mr. Parker but has published several videos which seem to be in accordance with EPAK from what little I know of Mr. Wheeler.

So a forum with some rules like this might allow higher level discussions between EPAK people if that is what the issue is, but I think this will be greatly dependent on The Moderator(s) and the Definition of what is acceptable in the forum.

I think that a testing period it should help clear this up.

I also think that such a thing will be a very great success if it is anywhere near as useful as Mr. Conatser's QnA thread which I treated in my mind like an EPAK forum now that I think of it.

Maybe make an EPAK forum and let Mr. C. moderate it.  Or maybe I should just go back and post more over there, but it would be nice if something similar could be developed where Mr. C. was not the primary "target" for everyone's questions.

I don't mind meeting and posting with other people here online but I would like to be able to discuss Glancing Wing (for example) with someone without having to first A) Teach the technique and B) Teach the terminology, concepts and principles.  I hope this is the sort of thing Clyde is driving at, I see the value in it and I see problems as well.  I would hope that a closely moderated forum would shake out most of these issues during a testing period as Mr. C. mentioned earlier.  I think the popularity and success of his "thread" has already proven the merits of an idea like this.  

If all else fails, I will ask Clyde to start something similar, I don't think there is anything in the rules of MT that prevent him or anyone else from starting a thread with its own "rules/guidelines" such as those outlined above, is there?  

OK.  That's my 2 cents.  Or 22 cents as the case may be.

:soapbox:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 7, 2003)

Screw it, it's not worth it.   All I wanted was consideration for splitting of the KENPO/KEMPO to a more select group of individuals that speak the same language without having to explain what gaseous expansion is three times.    F**k it.    With all the different people posting here you'd think we were taking something away from them, and I for one don't want to see a bunch of crybabies from other groups getting their panties in a knot because they're not doing EPAK.   God people, get your s**t together.   I'll just post over on CanAm where they do have a specific forum for us.

Clyde


----------



## Shiatsu (Oct 7, 2003)

Seems like the only person crying and throwing out name calling is you :shrug:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Seems like the only person crying and throwing out name calling is you :shrug: *



anonypussy strikes again.   

Clyde


----------



## Shiatsu (Oct 7, 2003)

Oh now my fellings are hurt.  Why do you insist on making yourself act like a *** on here?  Master Tatums way is not the only way.  Your way is not the only way, when will you get that through your thick skull?  

 By the way is your sparring equipment still in Vegas?:rofl:


----------



## Les (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *Why isn't Paul Mills Kenpo System worthy of his name. I know he's changed, forms, sets, and techniques for his guys... and they seem to work rather well for them. Why should Ed Parker accept responsibility for Mr. Mill's innovations?  *



That's an interesting question, and the short answer is that it IS worthy of his name.

Paul Mills formed the AKKI back in 1997, but long before that, while still with the IKKA, he was their Regional Representative for a area of ten states. Even back then, within the IKKA, they were known as "The Paul Mills Family Group".

While I was in the International Kenpo Karate Association, I thought I was training in American Kenpo. The patch I wore then said Kenpo Karate. When did it formally become EPAK?

Now I'm a member of American Kenpo Karate International, and I still think I train in American Kenpo. The patch I wear now says Kenpo Karate.

You've got me thinking now though...........Did Mr Parker himself use the phrase EPAK, or has it been coined since his death? 

Les


----------



## Seig (Oct 7, 2003)

I originally voted no for the reasons that are going on in here.  The pointless bickering and name calling.  Could it be a good thing and work?  You betcha.  Can every single thread degenerate into name calling?  Yep.  
  Since EPAK is based on logic, not emotion, let's look at a few points.
1.) This one is the scariest.  DC and Clyde agree.
This tells me that there is a common ground for a very strong forum.
2.) There are 3 accepted curriculuums for EPAK 32-24-16.  They all follow the same base but have different time lines.  This would have to be acknowledged and accepted by all.  In other words, No one saying "If you ain't doing the (insert tech number here), you ain't doing EPAK.  It would have to be agreed it is a 154 tech base system, regardless of 32-24-16.
3.) There are dozens if not hundreds of derivatives.
4.) Kenpoists, online, seem to be extremely disrepectful of one another.  This could not be tolerated in a forum dedicated solely to EPAK.
5.) A lot of online tools could be created from this forum, such as a Kenpo Dictionary.  That way, the yellow belt who only knows 10 techniques could actually ask intelligently phrased questions.
    I guess what I am saying is that if the forum is run and used with a basis in *LOGIC*, it could work.  If emotion is allowed to prevail, it is doomed.


----------



## Shiatsu (Oct 7, 2003)

It won't work, plain and simple.  There would still b the my way is right, you have no idea what you are talking about, he said she said BS.:shrug:


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Screw it, it's not worth it.   All I wanted was consideration for splitting of the KENPO/KEMPO to a more select group of individuals that speak the same language without having to explain what gaseous expansion is three times.    F**k it.    With all the different people posting here you'd think we were taking something away from them, and I for one don't want to see a bunch of crybabies from other groups getting their panties in a knot because they're not doing EPAK.   God people, get your s**t together.   I'll just post over on CanAm where they do have a specific forum for us.
> 
> Clyde *



Clyde- Grow up!


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *anonypussy strikes again.
> 
> Clyde *



HHmmm...speaking of anony. people- I've noticed that some people in your little group Clyde dont bother to put their info in the profile---no name, no rank, nothing.  Rather than say things about others, why dont you say something about your own guys!!!

Mike


----------



## clapping_tiger (Oct 7, 2003)

Just a plain and simple explanation is, that in my opinion setting up an EPAK Kenpo forum once again widens a gap in the kenpo community. Ok EPAK over here, and you guys over there. That is one thing that is wrong with Kenpo, too much seperation. We should all come together and learn from each other.


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *This can be done. However, I haven't received a request like this before. We're discussing it now.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



Good. I voted "undecided," but I would like to change my vote to a "no." So, please change my vote when you figure out how to do so.

I don't do Kenpo, as I have said. So...why should my vote count at all? Because...I care about this board, to answer simply, and this decision effects the entire board.

Why do I vote "No" now? 

The premises of Martial Talk that Bob has been trying to capture is that feeling that you have when your kickin' back with a cold one after a grueling Martial Arts Seminar, and shooting the breeze. You may talk about nothing (like in the locker room), you may talk about General Martial Arts stuff (like in the General Forum), you may talk about your art (like in your art specific forum), Or you may talk about politics or religion (like in the study). Conversations may stay light, or they may get heated, but in the end, we all walk away friends.

And...more importantly...no one is told to leave because of who they are and what they train in. Sure, one may be told to stay on topic, but they aren't told to go away. I feel that an EPAK forum will be mostly filled with arguements as to what/who is true EPAK and what/who isn't. This isn't within the spirit of MartialTalk. I feel that an EPAK forum will degenerate, thus degenerating the entire board to a degree.

I used the analogy of FMA and Modern Arnis specific forum, thinking that this idea could work. This was the wrong analogy. 

Modern Arnis can be specifically defined as "an art who's linage is Professor Remy Presas." So it is easy to figure out what to talk about on that forum. Kenpo can be defined as "an art who's linage is Ed Parker" (for the most part, although I know not all Kenpo traces to Ed Parker, but most on this board does, so I don't think that this was the problem), which is why there is the seperation between the "Karate forum" and the "Kenpo forum."

So, we have a Kenpo forum and a more general Karate forum, and we have a Modern Arnis Forum and a more general Filipino MA forum. This formula is already working out just fine.

So...a better analogy?

A better analogy would be if Modern Arnis Forum were to segment to "Professor Presas Modern Arnis" or "PPMA" forum. So we'd now have "Modern Arnis" and "PPMA." "PPMA" would be designed to segment those who do Pure Professor Presas Modern Arnis from others who may have added or subtracted from Modern Arnis. This sounds good on the surface, but (houston) we have a problem!

Problem....what is pure Professor Presas Modern Arnis? Professor is dead. We have a bunch of different organizations carrying the art, all claiming the same linage, all believing their moving in the direction Professor wanted, and all believing that they have Professor art in it's purity. Yet, all the methods are different. If this were to happend in Modern Arnis land, in a "PPMA" specific forum, every thread would degenerate into arguements over who/what is Pure Modern Arnis, and who/what isn't. This is not the spirit of MT.

I feel that the same would happened if you had EPAK specific forum. What is pure EPAK and what isn't? Ed Parker is dead, and you now have a bunch of Organizations carrying the art in different directions, same as Modern Arnis. So...I think that an EPAK forum would degenerate the same way, as the conversation has to a degree on this thread.

So...I recast my vote, and now you all know why. I don't see an EPAK specific forum as being a good thing at this time, as I see that it will segregate rather then bring people together, thus violating the whole premises of MT. If people want to talk only their version of what they believe is EPAK specific, then I think they should start their own site and talk forum where only those who do their accepted version of EPAK will be on the site. There is nothing wrong with that, but I just don't think it belongs here.

My 50 cents, Dawgs.


:asian:


----------



## Fastmover (Oct 7, 2003)

A couple of points.

1. It really is too bad that this string has sunk to name calling and tantrums. I think some self control is in order.  Maybe we should start a new forum for this, "If you must throw a tantrum, go here
to do it!"

2. I think cd Hall made some excellent points in his post. 

It would seem to me and it has been stated as so, what folks 
want is a forum to discuss EPAK as it is setup in Vol 5. Of course
I have no problem with these and actually I think it is a good idea. However..............to base EPAK soley on the sequences of the techniuqes and forms as they were written is a little short sighted in my opinion. Again its my opinion, its not the sequences of motion that make up Amercan Kenpo and by far it is not the strength of the system. The strength of the system and what I beleive defines EPAK is the concepts, principles and theories. This has been discussed in depth before, but still we find ourselves back to the same question. What is EPAK? Certainly the "system" as it is presented in Vol 5 is not all there was from Mr Parker. There is no way that Mr Parker could have put his entire system in a book not only because of the lack of space, but why would he freely expose his entire art?

As a result we all have to listen to those 1st generation Parker Black belts if we really wish to learn what EPAK is all about. The problem is we in Kenpo cant respect each individuals personal experience under Mr Parker enough to give these folks credit for what Mr Parker taught them. Again it is my personal opinion, but Mr Paker did not leave the system of Kenpo hidden in a book for us to read years later. Instead he left his system in the hands of his students to pass on to the generations to come. 

I still think if this new EPAK forum becomes a reality, it should be
called "Traditional Ed Parker American Kenpo." Why not call it what it is? 

Just My Thoughts


----------



## Bill Lear (Oct 7, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Shiatsu *
> 
> _Do you know how many of the upper belts that GM Parker promoted have changed certain things?  Yet they still call it EPAK or American kenpo.  It is called respect:asian: _



If I go by your definition of *respect* Mr. Parker must not have had very much *respect* for William K.S. Chow. Ofcourse, there are many sources that say the opposite, Mr. Parker being one of them.

I've never seen Mr. Parker label his system _"Ed Parker's American Kenpo"_... If I am not mistaken he always refered to Kenpo as _"our"_ art (meaning everyone's art).

Oh and Shiatsu, I know many of Mr. Parker's black belts. Every one of my instructors has been a first generation black belt of his. For many of them the term *"American Kenpo"* works just fine. :asian:


----------



## satans.barber (Oct 7, 2003)

If a discussion about a split causes this much arguing, imagine what an actual split would do!

I'm sticking by my 'no'  

Ian.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 7, 2003)

The scrabbling and such happening in here is what I'm afraid will happen if we do create it.

The vote count is very close, with enough folks interested for us to seriously question the creation.

Before we can 'create' we need to define the 'charter' so folks know what to expect, etc.  If you can't create that without degenerating into insults, namecalling and disrespect, how can we trust you'll behave if we grant the request?

On the topic of 'who will moderate', our existing Kenpo mods would initially assume that role.  We would then watch for a reasonably neutral leader to emerge and approach him or her at a later date.

I can see a great deal of benifit...I can also see a great deal of headache.  If we're gonna do this...lets do it right.  k?

:asian:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *The scrabbling and such happening in here is what I'm afraid will happen if we do create it.
> 
> The vote count is very close, with enough folks interested for us to seriously question the creation.
> ...



Hey Bob, really, forget I asked about this, I'll post on the EPAK at CanAm and leave the cult members here.   I can't believe some of the stupid reasons some of these idiots here have for saying no, and they don't even do EPAK.   I do realize the average IQ for America is around 100 but it seems to have dropped considerably here with these posts.      Don't worry about it, this place has been going to hell in a handbasket in the Kenpo/Kempo forum for a few months and I thought if you divided it, it might bring some order to it.   Guess not.

Clyde


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 7, 2003)

Yea...everyone here is stupid, and your the smart one.  

Nice mullet, by the way!


----------



## satans.barber (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Nice mullet, by the way! *



Thanks, I just LOL'ed blackcurrent juice all over my keyboard!

No disrespect at all Clyde, it just made me laugh!

:rofl: 

Ian.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Yea...everyone here is stupid, and your the smart one.
> 
> Nice mullet, by the way! *



Seems obvious, your is a possessive pronoun, you're is the contraction for you are.  

Clyde


----------



## clapping_tiger (Oct 7, 2003)

You know, with all this name bashing and calling everyone else stupid and such. I wonder why Clyde has not been suspended. He seems to have no respect for anyone else's opinion but his own.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by clapping_tiger _
> *You know, with all this name bashing and calling everyone else stupid and such. I wonder why Clyde has not been suspended. He seems to have no respect for anyone else's opinion but his own.  *



Fine with me, I could really give a crap.    

Clyde


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _*
> I think if this new EPAK forum becomes a reality, it should be called
> "Traditional Ed Parker American Kenpo." *



That's it........ and all are invited to join in.

:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 7, 2003)

So what is up with the anger all the time? I am wondering since I hate to lose the connection with you, and your input, (when you are being genuine and helpful). 

I know the "flavor" of CANAM is different and if you are happier there, that is your choice, but something has changed recently (within the past 4-6 weeks) and you just seem pissed off all the time. Maybe this is not the place to air it, but since it came up here I am starting a dialogue here, we can finish off line or by email. You have my phone number and private emails, (I think?) If not, I know Billy does. 

It seems like you object or have a heated opinion that degenerates into a condescending tone, then to anger, and then to "I am not going to discuss this", and I hate to say it, but the dynamic is, usually Robert and always Billy, are there to take your back. In all fairness, Robert almost always maintains his decorum on line. Billy, you are saying "yeah, what he said, cuz I am here and you are not!"

Guys, what has happened to you? To your perception of this Board, or to the actual forum itself (admins, mods, or other members?) Just cause not everyone agrees that an EPAK specific forum is the best thing, plenty of people do agree with you. This whole, *"well forget it"* thing seems like just the tip of the iceberg, and there is a lot more of an issue than you are sharing. As a result, the anger comes across as pretty petty at times, not just by you, but by others responding.

Let me know if you want to visit about it PM, phone or otherwise. I would like to know just because what is presented now days is not the picture I have of you in the real world.

Concerned,
-Michael


----------



## Fastmover (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> * they don't even do EPAK.
> 
> Clyde *



Well we found our judge and jury. 

Again I have no problem with an EPAK forum, but until someone
can step up and define the scope then what is the point. Since
it is Clyde's idea then he should step up and explain what he has in mind. 

Also Clyde you call everyone else a cult but you are the one pushing for "Kenpo segregation." 

Just my thoughts........


----------



## cdhall (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by clapping_tiger _
> *You know, with all this name bashing and calling everyone else stupid and such. I wonder why Clyde has not been suspended. He seems to have no respect for anyone else's opinion but his own.  *



I have been staying away from MT for a while but it seems to me that Clyde takes too much heat.

While Clyde may not be the most polite member of MT, he can speak English, type and converse about Kenpo in a manner consistent with Mr. Parker's teachings. Those qualities should not be the exception.

I don't know if he is always attacking other people's opinion but I have seen him correct other people's "facts" several times such as he did above with his lesson on "your" and "you're."

If he is running wild abusing everyone then I think that is a moderator issue.  Maybe we need to double the guard in the in the Kenpo section if behaviour is as widespread a problem as it would seem here on this thread.
:shrug:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 7, 2003)

Clyde, you say things like trust you we don't do what you do. Well Judging from your behavior on this thread, I cant see wanting to be part of an organization you hold a 6th degree in. Yes I know I ended a sentence with a preposition. There is not need for you to point that out. You  can just go tell Billy how to spell congratulations or somthing.
Sean


----------



## Les (Oct 7, 2003)

I don't like to see all the personal insults that are going on here, but I want to say this.....

Like just about everyone here, at some time or another, Clyde has posted something that has got me riled. Now and then, he posts something that I agree with too.

I've never met Clyde, nor even spoken to him on the phone, and if I did I may not much like him anyway.

But by coincidence, I was speaking on the phone today with a VERY high ranking Kenpo Black Belt, who does know Clyde, and his name came up in conversation.

I'm not going to share the content of a private conversation, but in general terms, I heard this.

Clyde does not suffer fools gladly.

Clyde is willing to help people.

If someone's opinion and attitude p*ss*s Clyde off, he'll have his say and thats the end of it.

When Clyde is on the mats, he can 'put his money where his mouth is.'

I know others who have met Clyde, some liked him, some didn't, but even Clyde is entitled to his opinion, and deserves respect.

Just the same as everyone else on this forum, Clyde should be able to post his thoughts without being insulted.


:soapbox: 


Les

Mind you, a decent haircut wouldn't hurt him


----------



## Kenpomachine (Oct 7, 2003)

Maybe what Clyde's looking for is a forum in which, when somebody asks about a certain techniques, set or form, it is in some form or another in the mind of all the people reading the messages.

It may also be good for novices who enter in the kenpo forum and find a thread about a nunchaku set 1 or whatever-its-name and think, "if we ain't doing this, then, is my teacher fooling me?" or anything similar.

But then, most of the people who starts thread in the existing kenpo fora are already EPAK, so why divide it?

I went for undecided...


----------



## cdhall (Oct 7, 2003)

I think that the best way to resolve this EPAK forum issue is by making Association Forums.  Associations already have their members "on the same page" right?  We should duplicate that success here.

We would need IKKA, AKKI, Kenpo 2000, Tatum, AKTS, etc fora and then everyone could of course use the General one as they see fit.

Ideally when a discussion goes off into an Association-Specific area, it can either be explained in the General Forum if that is where the discussion is at that the time, or moved off to the appropriate Association forum.

Ideally, there would be an Association member there as a moderator as well.

I don't think this will work, but I think it is the natural conclusion to this Quest.  EPAK is too broad.  There are too many legitimate derivatives.  Like Kung-Fu and the Shaolin Temple.

We might want to make a Kenpo Kung-Fu forum though so we can all say "My style is better than yours" even though our lips can't be seen to be out of sync on the internet.
:rofl:


----------



## qizmoduis (Oct 7, 2003)

Clyde and Larry Tatum seem to be popular targets for a certain group of folks on this and other fora.  He's sometimes a bit prickly, but he absolutely doesn't deserve the constant bashing directed at him.  Call him on his occasionall slips, sure, but there's no need to for such a constant stream of nastiness everytime the man posts.  He can't post anything these days without getting harassed.  It's stupid.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 7, 2003)

I'd be happy to set up a forum specific to -any- organization, under the hosted forum area...but not as a seperate part of the kenpo (or any art) area.

Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, Frank Trejo, Sean Kelly, Zack Whitson, Doreen, Edmund, etc, are -all- welcome here.  

Clydes idea is a good one, and -IF- we can get past egos and politics, and define it right, I think it could fly.

The idea of building an encycopedia would be a great thing IMHO.  I'd love to be able to goto another site like Kenponet, and say "Hey, lets pool our resources, mirror each others stuff and share the wealth."  This way, we all win.

:asian:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I'd be happy to set up a forum specific to -any- organization, under the hosted forum area...but not as a seperate part of the kenpo (or any art) area.
> 
> Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, Frank Trejo, Sean Kelly, Zack Whitson, Doreen, Edmund, etc, are -all- welcome here.
> ...




Bob, would you please remove my membership?

Clyde


----------



## clapping_tiger (Oct 7, 2003)

I never had anything against Clyde or anyone else. And I know that some people have a personality that causes people to butt heads. I have never met Clyde and I have from time to time enjoyed and learned something from his posts. It is sad that a simple poll like this has caused him to leave. But calling people "anonypussy" and saying the  non-epak Kenpo artists are in a cult, to me seems like an insult. It does seem that of late he has been pretty angry about something. When I mentioned that I was surprised that he was not suspended(I did not say banned), I didn't mean for him to leave for good, but perhaps give him some time off of here to cool off and perhaps sort things out. If my post had something to do with him leaving I feel bad, but I assure you that was not my intention or I would have said so. But things like this





> I'll post on the EPAK at CanAm and leave the cult members here. I can't believe some of the stupid reasons some of these idiots here have for saying no, and they don't even do EPAK. I do realize the average IQ for America is around 100 but it seems to have dropped considerably here with these posts. Don't worry about it, this place has been going to hell in a handbasket in the Kenpo/Kempo forum for a few months and I thought if you divided it, it might bring some order to it. Guess not.


 just are not called for. The people who said "no" (which included myself)were just posting their point of view and they get called stupid idiots? And the way I read the post is that basically if you do not practice EPAK, then you are not worth the time to talk about Kenpo with or you dont know anything about Kenpo.  Clyde, if you still are reading these posts, I am sorry to see you go and whatever it is that is bothering you I hope you sort it out or it may consume you. Best wishes and I hope to see you return, in a better mood of course.:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 7, 2003)

This was an unexpected direction for a string to go.......


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 7, 2003)

I can't believe all the disrespect on this thread!  And we aren't even talking about anything controversial like changing the system or anything like that.  Shame on us.

While you may love or hate Clyde's approach, he is one of the most knowledgable people on this board and made a tremendous effort to educate and promote Kenpo.  I happen to disagree strongly with much of Clyde's philosophy, but I respect his knowledge, his contribution, and his ability to communicate.

Shame on us for driving him away.  Shame on all of us!!!


----------



## SenseiBear (Oct 7, 2003)

I only browse the Kempo/Kenpo forums, so I don't know about other threads, but to use this thread as an example (and I just finished reading all the posts) - It looks to me like Clyde starts the name calling, then others respond.  A disagreement or a question about how something would work is not a personal attack.  The tone of many of the emails (and most of Clydes) have been childish and disrespectful.

I don't know Clyde, and he may be a very knowledgable Martial Artist - but on this thread at least, he has seemed like a Junior High school student who has decided to take his toys and leave _(Screw you guys... I'm goin HOME.")_ and if that is the case, I say good riddance...


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 7, 2003)

OK, fine. 

Let me write here as a long-standing teacher of writing, and tell y'all what the problems are with the logic of these discourses.

First: there're far too many name-calling--what would be called, "ad hominem," (against the man, not the ideas/evidence) attacks. Then, too much denial that one actually lauched a set of insults. Often, too damn many insinuations that the opponent must be gay, or a girl. 

Second: there're too many anonymous posters, which means that some folks don't have to take the slightest responsibility for what they write, and can insulate themselves against any look at their actual credentials. Academics try to be honest about this stuff, on the other hand, precisely to keep themselves honest. 

Third: far too much refusal to supply facts (or what passes for them in kenpo), and far too much active avoidance of any request for facts or references of any kind.

Fourth. Endless arguments about a) trivia, b) who is the Great Grandfather of Kenpo, c) the politics of kenpo, d) why we shouldn't get into the politics of kenpo.

Fifth: Endless invocations of one's own religious/political/sexual orientation as the only true way to see things, coupled with endless attacks on those, "abnormals," who simply see the world differently. In particular, what we see here are repeated paeans to, say, our economic system, or Christianity, or whatever--and repeated, insistent verbal attacks on anybody who sees the world differently. 

Sixth: too much swaggering and dick-waving and bragging about one's fighting skills, disguised especially as claims about, "being realistic," or, "being street-experienced," or whatever. 

Seventh: too much jealousy, and far too little open-heartedness. Clyde for example may well be a jerk at times, and he's a bit scary to be on a mat with--and the fact that it is in part the function of advanced students to shake up the rest of us notwithstanding, I'd be rather surprised to find any evidence of Clyde lying, or exaggerating, or inventing credentials and experiences. I'd also be hard-pressed to find any evidence that he isn't simple and straightforward about his ideas.

Eighth: too little knowledge of how to argue and to write. And to read well.

Ninth: too much confusion of opinion with argument. 

Tenth: way too much oedipalized discourse, in which the essential question always seems to me something like: "Who's the Father? Can I be the Father now?"

Eleventh: too little respect, and too little knowledge, of the history of martial arts.

Twelfth: too much disguised politicking and advertising. These things are fine, when done openly and acknowledged. Papered over, they lead to all manner of bad writing.

Thirteenth: too little willingness to get close to the mirror, and look for the beam in our own eye, before we worry about the mote in the next guy's.

Fourteenth: too much creation of "straw men," which is to say too much distortion of other people's viewpoints so we have something clear to attack.

Fifteenth: too much uncritical adoption of "progress," as an unequivocal good, so that whatever's latest tends to be what's best.

Sixteenth: too much Taking It All Seriously.

Seventeenth: too little Taking It All Seriously.

Eighteenth: the endless, and unproductive, pursuit of the unsolvable--witness this post.

I see that Clyde's about out of here. Can't wait to read the, "Should Clyde Leave?" poll, a repeat of the "Should Gou Leave?" poll. Personally, I'd argue that these guys come across very, very similarly in their writing. They both should be kept around, to keep us honest.

But I understand pretty darn well why Clyde's about had it. Insults, distortions, attacks on Mr. Tatum, often by folks who won't give their name and who can't spell. Insistence upon reading openheartedness and honesty as simple meanness. Insistences upon attacking one's abilities, or character, or--well, fill in the list. 

Personally, I try to stay dispassionate. But I've 'bout had it too--I can't claim that I'm always logical, or informed, or non-partisan, or even polite, but I try.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 7, 2003)

I find it is best to take a couple hours and think about what has been said to me, rather than posting the first thing that pops in my head or I would have been banned a long time ago. Nobody doubted Clyde's inteligents but he considerd it his sworn duty to convince us that he was. Usualy this was done by calling people Strange, weird, or god knows what. Dennis, to use you as an example. Iv'e never, as long as I've been on Martial Talk, seen you resort to rudeness or call someone stupid to prove a point. You two hold the same rank (I think). I would sooner look to you for instruction before a man that has to bite back his anger just to talk to me.
Sean


----------



## cdhall (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Bob, would you please remove my membership?
> 
> Clyde *



Indeed I think it is ill-considered and bad for everyone for Clyde to have his membership removed.

Why not just go away for a few weeks or so like I have done several times since I've joined?

I don't see the point in qutting.  I wish he'd stay around.

rmcrobertson makes several good points.


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 7, 2003)

I voted NO. I see no reason why we need to have a separate forum for EPAK.

We are in Kempo community together and have the same ORIGIN.

we are here to share with other about our kempo system/history.

if you want to discuss AK amonng AK people, i suggest you NOT to go online and discuss it. Why?

anything you discuss here is for EVERYBODY to see NOT your own *group*. 

we are really divided in community already and creating another forum like another's suggestion will not help anything


----------



## Les (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I think that the best way to resolve this EPAK forum issue is by making Association Forums. B]*


* 

Doug,

Thats an interesting idea, but wouldn't it then simply duplicate whats already out there?

Most associations, and for that matter schools, already have a forum where everyone is 'on the same page'.

I feel most people come to Martial Talk to hear what the 'others' have to say.

Personally, I like the Kenpo forum here just the way it is, and the only change I would make is that I would have the moderators delete any post with a personal attack on any other member.

No warnings, no threats, DELETED!

Persistant offenders could have their registration cancelled.

(What about 'free speech' I hear you all cry? So, what about it?)

Les*


----------



## dcence (Oct 7, 2003)

For what  it is worth, I think Clyde is right.  I think it would be useful to have a forum where you know that it is the art as Mr. Parker left it at his death that you are discussing.     I can see why  he would want it.   It doesn't exclude anyone, you will just need to know EPAK as a common base to make some sense in your posts.  Me,  I can put on my EPAK hat and discuss it, even though I am in the AKKI.

Derek


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

Yes, it is a shame that things came down to what they did.  The unfortunate thing is that a person with alot of knowledge did leave.  However, its one thing to be confident, but to be arrogant as well...well, that IMO, is something that he was.  I know that I have talked about the faults that I have seen in Kenpo, and I have taken much heat for it.  There is a difference though.  I have never said that I was the know it all, the best fighter in the world, that my way of doing things is better, whereas that is exactly what Clyde has done.  He has said many times, or given the impression that his word is written in stone and everybody else is wrong.  Again, we all have different ways of training, I have mine and he has his.  Its my opinion, that someone who holds a high rank should be willing and able to talk to everyone, regardless of whatever the question might be, and also do so, without making someone feel stupid because they dont do things his way.  

I could probably write more, but I'd rather not.  He has chosen the path that he wants and that was to leave.

Mike


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Bob, would you please remove my membership?
> 
> Clyde *



Fine...take you're ball and go home.

Sincerely,

Paul Janulis
A linguistic descriptivist who can mispel and missuse "your" (as I did again here) any other godddamn word he pleases.


----------



## cdhall (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Paul Janulis
> A linguistic descriptivist who can mispel and missuse "your" (as I did again here) any other godddamn word he pleases. *



And swear like a drunken sailor to boot.  Paul, I think you are a high-ranking guy in some other system and I hesitate to attack you, but are you just trying to irritate Clyde, or all his "allies" or are you also now after how ever many Christians are on this board?

Where is George Carlin?  What are the 7 words you can't say on the Net?  

Man this is such a great place to visit.  Pass the mud. I didn't bring enough for this thread.
:shrug:


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Hey Bob, really, forget I asked about this, I'll post on the EPAK at CanAm and leave the cult members here. *



shall i say. Peace be with you and i truly hope you have a happy ending 



> *  I can't believe some of the stupid reasons some of these idiots here have for saying no, and they don't even do EPAK.   I do realize the average IQ for America is around 100 but it seems to have dropped considerably here with these posts.
> *



you are really an IDIOT and MORON if you think AK is the *best*. I hope you don't keep AK close to your balls every second. Of course, voting NO people will be IDIOT if they listen to you.

you have more AK people here. So what?? AK people knows how to do *business*

it is easy for you to tell other DO this and DO THAT but you don't actually do the work here. 

you had your chances to express your OPIONs, NOW i and other have our chances. Take it or leave it

by the way, are you not HAPPY because you are NOT winning here ?????


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 7, 2003)

Mike:  I liked the arrogance.  It fueled my attacks on the cannonization of Kenpo dogma!  What will I have to rant about without having someone with whom I can always disagree?


----------



## cdhall (Oct 7, 2003)

I hate to be the one to do this, but Several of the following General Rules as listed via the link on top of every page, have now been violated on this thread with little or no intervention from the mods.  I'd have to go back and look. I do think Seig may have advised us all to be civil.

General Rules:
· No Flame Wars. Keep it civil, please.
· Keep the language civil. No profanity.
· Please post to the correct forum, for a reason and on topic. Do not cross post to multiple forums.
· Be respectful of the other arts, and your fellow members.
· No Advertising except in the advertising forums
· If you have a problem with another member, contact a moderator to handle it.
· Take the time to explore the Help, FAQ and User CP.

I think we used to follow these more closely and MT was better for it.


----------



## dcence (Oct 7, 2003)

> Why isn't Paul Mills Kenpo System worthy of his name. I know he's changed, forms, sets, and techniques for his guys... and they seem to work rather well for them. Why should Ed Parker accept responsibility for Mr. Mill's innovations?



From what he has told me, he doesn't  feel comfortable claiming Kenpo as his.  I think he likes thinking of what we do in the AKKI  as belonging to the association.   We simply call it AKKI Kenpo.  It  is kenpo the way the AKKI chooses to practice it.   We don't call it EPAK.  It is not EPAK (exactly what Mr. Parker taught at his death) but as similar to EPAK as it is different. 

Certainly, Mr. Parker's place is special.  But if you really know Kenpo you realize that "EPAK" is an  evolution of what Chow taught  Mr. Parker and Mr. Parker taught the Tracy's.  Mr.  Parker innovated and changed and created and organized.  But Delayed Sword is in the Tracy system, it is in EPAK and it is in AKKI Kenpo.  So many of the EPAK techniques, forms, etc. are borrowed directly from "traditional kenpo" as enshrined by the Tracy organization, or borrowed with little variation, that I often have a hard time seeing any lines between traditional kenpo, EPAK and my own  AKKI, where one ends and the other begins.

Long answer to a short question.
Derek


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Mike:  I liked the arrogance.  It fueled my attacks on the cannonization of Kenpo dogma!  What will I have to rant about without having someone with whom I can always disagree? *



Well, a few things here.  First, dont worry.  There are plenty of puppets around that offer the same as Clyde.  Second, you can always take a stroll over to CANAM or KN, and visit Clyde there.

Mike


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 7, 2003)

I do post on CanAm, KenpoNet, and JiuJitsuGear Forum.  I do like MT the best though.  I disagreed with Clyde most of the time and disliked his approach to Kenpo discussion.  But I did learn from him and I respected him, his knowledge, and his opinions.  It is wrong for us to degenerate into personal attacks against each  other, it is wrong to gang up on a forum member whether we like him/her or not, and it is wrong for a member to go away mad.

Shame on us.


----------



## Ender (Oct 7, 2003)

Did I miss something here?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> *Did I miss something here? *


Nothing important.


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *And swear like a drunken sailor to boot.  Paul, I think you are a high-ranking guy in some other system and I hesitate to attack you, but are you just trying to irritate Clyde, or all his "allies" or are you also now after how ever many Christians are on this board?
> 
> Where is George Carlin?  What are the 7 words you can't say on the Net?
> ...



Swear...? Brother, you don't know the half of it.

I spelled my curse word wrongly and with a lower case intentionally, as not to offend Christians here. I may have failed, however, so I'll choose my words better next time.

Irritate "Clyde supporters"? Not my intention, but I'm sure I did.

Irritate Clyde? Absolutely. I gave what I felt was a well thought out opinion on the subject, and I am basically told that I (along with half the other people here) am an idiot because I don't agree with him. 

So I commented sarcastically and took a cheap shot. He deserved it. He used it to elevate himself above me and others with his "superior gramatical abilities".  

Now...come to find out...he gets up and leaves because people "attack him" because they don't like his pretentious attitude. 

He's in the wrong here, and he brought any ill comments towards himself. I was only responding to provocation, rather then being the firestarter. So, other then by the possibility that I might have offended christains, I make no apologies for my actions.

I am, however, going to stay off this thread. The mess should be over at this point, so I don't want to add more fuel to the fire.

So, I'm done. I think we should all follow your advice as a mod. in training and keep the flames down!


----------



## Brother John (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I can't believe all the disrespect on this thread!  And we aren't even talking about anything controversial like changing the system or anything like that.  Shame on us.
> 
> While you may love or hate Clyde's approach, he is one of the most knowledgable people on this board and made a tremendous effort to educate and promote Kenpo.  I happen to disagree strongly with much of Clyde's philosophy, but I respect his knowledge, his contribution, and his ability to communicate.
> ...



I agree, the disrespect is THICK in this one.
We aren't talking about anything controversial... which makes me wonder about Clyde's drastic language and decision. 

Clyde sure is a knowledgable person, about Kenpo and otherwise and he did do his part to contribute and promote his understanding of Kenpo. No doubt, and these things will be missed.
But being knowledgable and contributing and promoting don't give anyone of any rank from any camp license for abusive talk, personal attacks, put-downs and crude vulgarity. Clyde told me when I met him "If I think something, I'm going to say it; and I expect others to do the same." I wish he would have stuck to that.
In truth Clyde had an idea that met with some solid opposition. Instead of addressing the opposition, he insulted those who oppose; picked up his ball and ran home.

I really like Clyde. I honestly do, and many who don't WOULD if they met him in person. I met him and it made a huge difference. 
But the shame (your word) is in even portion on everyone who became enflamed, crude and abusive.... starting with my brother Clyde.

He's gone.                 His choice; nobody drove him too it.

So how about we get back to the topic at hand; the proposed creation of a "Traditional Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate" forum. Maybe we could address it without so much heat.
Need I remind you of the bunny?

Your Brother
John


----------



## satans.barber (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *And swear like a drunken sailor to boot.  Paul, I think you are a high-ranking guy in some other system and I hesitate to attack you, but are you just trying to irritate Clyde, or all his "allies" or are you also now after how ever many Christians are on this board?
> 
> Where is George Carlin?  What are the 7 words you can't say on the Net?
> ...



Quoting and replying in general to these spelling type debates - this was never about spelling or grammar was it? If I was bored enough I'd go though all Clyde's posts and pick out the SPG mistakes, but what would be the point?

If we're going to argue let's at least keep it an MA orientated argument and not degenerate into nit-picking at silly typoes!

nIa.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

OFK- check your private messages.

Mike


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 7, 2003)

I'm pressed for time, so I'll be blunt.


1- Watch the language.  I can't possibly filter -every- cuzz word, and I shouldn't have to.  Enough.

2- Watch the attitudes.  Theres enough disrespect in this thread as it is to make me wonder why we should even bother.  Is that whats wanted?

3- Clyde - Clyde asked for his account to be closed.  We followed his wishes.  At this time, He is welcome to return if he so chooses, and I said as much when I closed the account.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 7, 2003)

Well, I've wrote it before, and I'll be a-writin' it again: if you want perfection, you'll have to bring your own.

Geez, it's like nobody ever read, "Bartholemew and the Oobleck." Here's a hint: the magic word is, "I'm sorry."

Just to mention one example of the kinda thing that flew up Clyde's skirt: lots and lots of the time, I can't even post and support a friend of mine--with whose ideas I often agree (well, except about politics, ethnicity, economics, feminism...and a few thousand other things), without getting some fairly-snotty comment about being Clyde's lap-dog. 

And if I read one more post that recites truisms about martial arts and tries to pass them off as superior insight into the truth...


----------



## don bohrer (Oct 7, 2003)

I voted yes for the EPAK forum. How bout we get it rolling. If it takes root then great. 

Well... off to work out, later guys!

don


----------



## Shiatsu (Oct 7, 2003)

So far the no's has the lead.   Yes I know no's is not a word.  :asian:


----------



## Seig (Oct 7, 2003)

I'm a little late here, as unfortunately, I sleep during the day.  I see Bob stepped in, and it's good he did.  I was not going to be so PC.  I'm going to put one last comment about the negativity.  If you want to debate the issues, fine debate them.  IF I see ONE more personal attack on Clyde or anyone else, I am locking this thread and I will deal with the offender and I could care less who it is.  Did I always agree with Clyde, nope.  Did I argue with him, yep.  Did I learn anything from him, yep.  If he stays gone, that is his decision.  If he comes back, that too is his decision.  I have been called a thread nazi in the past, that is not an accurate term, and I find it offensive.  If the pointless flame wars and name calling continue, I am not going to be understanding.  I am going to deal with it as soon as I see it and harshly.  Is this what Bob and everyone else wants for MT?  No.  I don't either.  So, either act like Martial Artists or deal with me being a schmuck.
Seig
-MT Moderator-


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _*
> So, either act like Martial Artists or deal with me being a @#@#%  Seig-MT Moderator-
> *



Mod Monitor Note-

Watch you language [no profanity] young man or I'll talk to the MT Gawds and have you booted in the "Bun-o-skis":rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## Seig (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Mod Monitor Note-
> 
> Watch you language [no profanity] young man or I'll talk to the MT Gawds and have you booted in the "Bun-o-skis":rofl:
> ...


LOL:rofl: Boot me in the bum yourself, I said it, I meant it, I stand beside it.  PS- That is not consider profanity, but for your tender sensibilities, I will go back and change it to schmuck.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _*
> LOL:rofl: I will go back and change it.
> *



:wink:


----------



## JD_Nelson (Oct 7, 2003)

What a joke.


Kenpoist at large!!!

Salute

JD


----------



## Brother John (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *act like Martial Artists or deal with me being a schmuck.
> Seig
> -MT Moderator- *


not schmuck
proper

Your Bro.
John


----------



## arnisador (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I hate to be the one to do this, but Several of the following General Rules as listed via the link on top of every page, have now been violated on this thread with little or no intervention from the mods.  *



We always appreciate it when members help us keep things calm! Remember, it is always possible that Mod. Notes have been sent by PM or e-mail--in fact, one member has stated that he or she received a Warning.

Threads like this are difficult--we want people to be able to freely discuss a hot topic, but we also want it to stay polite and respectful. Also, we ask that everyone please remember that MartialTalk has no paid staff. Much of this happened overnight and during the workday when we were asleep or at work. My browser at work is sluggish on this site, for example. (I don't know why.) Please, have patience!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## arnisador (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *And swear like a drunken sailor to boot.  Paul, I think you are a high-ranking guy in some other system and I hesitate to attack you, but are you just trying to irritate Clyde, or all his "allies" or are you also now after how ever many Christians are on this board?*



*PAUL* against Christians? Wow, I really think you've got the wrong guy here. For example:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10609


----------



## JD_Nelson (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *LOL:rofl: Boot me in the bum yourself, I said it, I meant it, I stand beside it.  PS- That is not consider profanity, but for your tender sensibilities, I will go back and change it to schmuck. *



Nice to see an instructor reign in a student.  And i think well done by Seig to modify his statement.


Salute 

JD


----------



## Seig (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JD_Nelson _
> *Nice to see an instructor reign in a student.  And i think well done by Seig to modify his statement.
> 
> 
> ...


That is not so much a case of an Instructor reigning in a student, but a case of a friend telling another he went a little over the line.  In this case, he was right and I modified my behaviour.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 7, 2003)

We are rolling out a strongly moderated EPAK forum on a _trial_ basis.  If this works, we will keep it.  If it turns into a political or personality pissing match, we will roll it back into the Kenpo General forum.

If this does work, we will consider possibly doing similar for other branches of the Kenpo tree.


----------



## Fastmover (Oct 7, 2003)

After thinking about this, I voted yes. For the simple reason I think it would be great to have a place were people could tell stories about Mr. Parker. So all you folks out there who have stories about meeting Mr. Parker AND especially him knocking the be-jesus out of you..........I want to hear it. What better way is
there to honor someone, then to remember someone. 

Be Good!


----------



## JD_Nelson (Oct 7, 2003)

But not by Popular Vote.

Must have been some ballot boxes  that were shutdown early. 



Salute


JD


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 7, 2003)

The vote is close enough that I personally think it has a chance.  if the 30 or so folks who voted yes run with this idea, it could be a good thing.

Its a probationary roll out at the moment.

:asian:


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *  IF I see ONE more personal attack on Clyde or anyone else, I am locking this thread and I will deal with the offender and I could care less who it is.   If the pointless flame wars and name calling continue, I am not going to be understanding.  I am going to deal with it as soon as I see it and harshly.  Is this what Bob and everyone else wants for MT?  No.  I don't either.  So, either act like Martial Artists or deal with me being a schmuck.
> Seig
> -MT Moderator- *



when *special interest group* raise their voice and begin to call name to other people, i haven't seen any action applied to this *group*

very much has a FREE PASS

when another person calls name, this person is BANNED. This is very much UNFAIR treatment.

we really have a double standard here.

just my 2 cents


----------



## Seig (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *when *special interest group* raise their voice and begin to call name to other people, i haven't seen any action applied to this *group*
> 
> very much has a FREE PASS
> ...


 I see your concerns and they are valid, at least on the surface.  Part of the issues here are that the users do not see what goes on behind the scenes.  A lot of times when one of us sees something, we have to wait for input from the rest of the admin team.  Unfortunatley, what this means is that sometimes things slip through the cracks.  Sometimes, we jump on something and get told to kiss off by the person we tried talking to, this requires a stronger reaction.  Part of the solution to the problem is a very heavyily moderated EPAK area and a tightening of the controls in the regular Kenpo areas, meaning the Mods for those areas are not going to wait for the committee to convene, we are going to deal with problems as they arise.
Seig
-MT Moderator-


----------



## cdhall (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Swear...? Brother, you don't know the half of it.
> 
> I spelled my curse word wrongly and with a lower case intentionally, as not to offend Christians here. I may have failed, however, so I'll choose my words better next time. *



Thank you, sir for not going off on me like a barrel of gunpowder.

I was trying to be polite and irritated at the same time.  I am glad you did not take too much offense.

And I know Paul may not read this or post about it, but I wanted to say it in "public" I may go email him now.

Arnisador: I've looked at that thread before but it will take me a long time to read it all, much of it was written a lot faster than I could read it.  But thanks for pointing it out.

I think this thread is course-correcting rather well myself.  I am sorry to see Clyde go though and I am looking forward to an EPAK forum/thread/thing. I will try to help make that work.


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 8, 2003)

LOL I think there were a few hanging chad's...I demand a re-count!:rofl:  Well, it looks like a trial EPAK forum won by the electoral vote.  Congrat's, Kenpoists, and good luck on your new forum!artyon: 

cdhall: I did read your response...thanks, by the way! I appreciate your candor!


----------



## Seig (Oct 8, 2003)

The long and the short of it is this.  Even though there were more nay sayers (myself included) than yeses, there was enough of an overall interest to make the forum a reality, at least on a trial basis.  We'll see what happens.  And before anyone starts the rumor mill, Clyde is welcome there.


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 8, 2003)

will we have a new EPAK forum  even though NO is more than YES???

I thought NO means NO. In this case, NO means YES ???

without stirring thing up, if NO means YES, why did we set up the POLL and ask members to VOTE???

i wasted my NO vote here  :soapbox:

we also wasted all the times to ARGUE and INSULT each other for NOTHING


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 8, 2003)

CoolKempoDude:

You have finally internalized the New Kenpo Creed as widely practiced on the internet:  

I come to you with only my keyboard, empty head. I have nothing important to say, but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles, or my honor, should it be a matter of ego or pride, sense or nonsense, then here are my weapons, my keyboard my empty head.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 8, 2003)

Over 70 people took the time to indicate their position.  To me, that said alot.  The current tally is only -1- vote apart, with 8 undecided or obstaining.  Given the closeness, and more importantly the number of those in favor, I weighed it out and thought it worth -trying-.

This is just that, a trial run.  Its more strictly moderated than the rest of the Kenpo area and as such, will not be for everyone.  Its more 'meat-n-potatoes'. 

I will be monitoring it as we go so see how it works.  

-IF- the worries of those who voted no come to life, and we are unable to keep it focused, it will most likely be rolled back into the other kenpo areas as appropriate.

I ask that everyone please give it a chance.  I think that if we can get it right, we will generate a living encyclopedia of the art. 

Those who do not wish to use it, the Kenpo-General and Technical areas will remain cross-polinating as they have been. 

One of my goals is to expand the scope of this forum to include as many arts, systems, styles and flavors as we can.  I'd love to see us triple in traffic by years end.  I'd like this to be the best, most diverse, and most featureful site for kenpoists, and all arts.

We will be watching to make sure the concerns are taken care of.




OFK - youre funny...heres a cookie. 

:asian:


----------



## Bill Lear (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *CoolKempoDude:
> 
> You have finally internalized the New Kenpo Creed as widely practiced on the internet:
> ...



*It's not the Kenpo creed at all... that's the Keyboard Warrior's Creed. Not all Keyboard Warriors are Kenpoists.* :lol:


----------



## Ender (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *CoolKempoDude:
> 
> You have finally internalized the New Kenpo Creed as widely practiced on the internet:
> ...



*LOL..i love it..can i use it??..*chucklesnort


----------



## cdhall (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *OFK - youre funny...heres a cookie.*



Amen!
I wanted to say something to CoolKempoDude myself but I held back.  I'm glad to see my patience was rewarded.
:rofl:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 8, 2003)

I will now claim this new creed for my MartialTalk signature.


----------



## Sergio Jódar (Oct 8, 2003)

I think there are only possitive things in the creation of the EPAK forum.


----------



## don bohrer (Oct 8, 2003)

This is a great place, and I trust Bob's intuition. 

I will live EPAK vicariously through others.  


don


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Amen!
> I wanted to say something to CoolKempoDude myself but I held back.  I'm glad to see my patience was rewarded.
> :rofl: *



if you want to say something to me, why held back? just release it. It is better that way. If you hold back, it is BAD for your health.

i'm looking forward to your saying and I'll be glad to respond to your comment.

looking forward to it


----------



## Brother John (Oct 8, 2003)

the rivers shall flow with the flapjacks of the non-believers.


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 9, 2003)

Since there is an EPAK forum now.  Does this thread need to die a natural death?  Or will the rabbits of the world continue to propigate?
-Michael


----------



## cdhall (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *if you want to say something to me, why held back? just release it. It is better that way. If you hold back, it is BAD for your health.
> 
> i'm looking forward to your saying and I'll be glad to respond to your comment.
> ...



I was just going to say that it was not the raw vote count so much as the reasoning behind the votes.  It was a poll, not an election.  But Kaith also came along and said that again.

I was then also going to say that this reminded me of a Professor I once had who demonstrated to the class that we all did better on Essay Exams than we did on True/False exams.

Same thing here.  You get to answer the question And explain your answer and it was the explanations, not the raw answers that led Kaith to decide to create the forum.

Well, the raw numbers also demonstrated I think that there were enough people to make it fly. I will be in the EPAK section a lot.  I think it will work.  But I'm REALLY beating a dead horse here
:deadhorse 

I just wanted to reply to you as per your request.

I also vote to lock this thread before it takes over the entire server. It no longer has a purpose.  If necessary the theme could continue in the Locker Room or the General Kenpo area I think.
:asian:

They shoot horses don't they?


----------



## Kenpomachine (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *CoolKempoDude:
> 
> You have finally internalized the New Kenpo Creed as widely practiced on the internet:
> ...



:rofl: :rofl: It's great!!


----------



## Kenpomachine (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *will we have a new EPAK forum  even though NO is more than YES???
> 
> I thought NO means NO. In this case, NO means YES ???
> ...



You know, a democracy is not a way for the majority to impose their beliefs to the minority without remorse. More to the contrary, is a system that should allow the minority to have a voice. 

And that's exactly what Keith has done! :asian:


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *You know, a democracy is not a way for the majority to impose their beliefs to the minority without remorse. More to the contrary, is a system that should allow the minority to have a voice.
> 
> And that's exactly what Keith has done! :asian: *



i don't have any problem if there is a EPAK forum or a trial EPAK as long as people honestly say so. I mean all they have to do is SAY there will be EPAK forum here. If they did that, we wouldn't INSULT and CALL name to each other.

perhaps, "professor kenpo" wouldn't ask for his ACCOUNT to be CLOSED

BUT we decided to vote here to see how everything goes

the result is MORE no THAN yes and we still have EPAK forum in the end AFTER all the bad things were in here.???

 :soapbox: 

POLITICS or try to please *high* profile people????

  

obviously, the democracy doesn't work when you are not WINNING


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 9, 2003)

I usually try to be rather "PC" when wearing the 'admin' hat.... I let my hair (what there is of it) down a bit more in the non-art areas.

While this discussion was going on in public, I had a long discussion with most of the staff.  The concerns that were voice out here were heard, and were echoed in there.

My personal concern, is that adding a seperate EPAK (or Tracy or whatever) forum will do just what folks have said.  Cause rifts, elitism, political and personal BS, drain the Kenpo-General, etc.

I've dealt with enough of the 'personallities' to have the fear that this will all 'blowup'.

So, after seeing how close it was vote wise, and after thinking about what we could truely gain, -I- made the decision to do it, on a strict-moderation aspect, with a narrow focus.

I think we can do something good here.  So far, Both Seig and Mr. Billings have spent a good amount of time organizing it, trying to figure it all out.  I've spent over 10+ hours on the phone LD so far with folks about it...and will be spending more.  

When this started, I was against the idea.  As I read through what people said, and talked to some of you, I started to think what it could be.

You're right, its not a democracy...but I value -everyones- opinions.   I'm hoping that we can pull some good stuff out of this expansion.  -IF- I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but despite the reservations (yours and mine) I thought the risk worth taking.  The fact that Clyde and Dennis agreed (which I believe is not a common occurance) helped reinforce that it -might- be a good idea.

If you don't want to use it, that is perfectly ok.  We are not getting rid of the other kenpo areas. I'm hopeful that the diversity will in fact continue to enrich us.  

In the end, it is up to the people who asked for this forum to make it work, or to make it not work.


----------



## cdhall (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> obviously, the democracy doesn't work when you are not WINNING [/B]



CoolKempoDude:

You are attacking a Straw Man.

This is a POLL not an Election.  Bob didn't say in the first post that it would be a Majority rules vote.  The Poll graphic itself says

"Shour MT create a Kenpo-EPAK forum?
You have already voted on this poll."

It is meant to Garner Opinion.  We are not a Congress and we are not passing a law.  And if we were, Bob has the ability to override it.

So democracy worked fine here.  Had it been a straight vote, the Majority would have won and the forum would not have been created.

Since it was not a straight vote, the Minority was provided for by creating the forum for them based on the reasons and level of participation both sides gave.

Quit arguing that it was designed as, set up as, and meant to be executed as some type of legally binding vote.  That is not, has not, and was not stated in the beginning and the fact that it is set up as a POLL reinforces this completely and absolutely.

Here is a partial definition of "Poll" from Dictionary.com and this totally supports my opinion here and does not support your opinion so please stop making the case that democracy doesn't work or that the results of this Poll preclude forming an EPAK thread.  Some of us want an EPAK thread because EPAK is based on LOGIC and I for one am hoping that it will make the EPAK section less exasperating.

I'm trying to be polite but it is hard under these conditions.  Here is the partial definition I promised from Dictionary.com:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=poll

"The casting and registering of votes in an election. 
The number of votes cast or recorded. 
The place where votes are cast and registered. Often used in the plural with the. 
*A survey of the public or of a sample of public opinion to acquire information*."
:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

Can we close this thread and let whoever wants to go argue in the bar/locker room/cafe?


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 9, 2003)

cdhall,

you obviously didn't read my previous post and have a good understanding about what i tried to say

democracy works fine here because it is ON your side even though your YES people received less number than NO people.

what do you UNDERSTAND when you see the number of this POLL? Let me point it out for you so that you can see it clearly

there is no doublt about the number of your EPAK people is WAY too many.

when you look at the number of people say NO in this poll, you NEED TO UNDERSTAND that some of AK people said NO too. Otherwise, we will never have more NO people than YES people

it also means some of your AK dont want another separate KEMPO forum for HARDCORE AK people

if the purpose of setting a POLL is to let other have their say about this newly created forum and have a better understanding the position of everybody here , we MUST follow what the majority say

if you want to experiment or do whatever you prefer to, you should not set up a POLL in the first place. If people do that, we avoid a lot of bad feeling among us

about your LOGIC AK. You are telling me other *art* is not LOGIC and ONLY your Art is LOGIC ??? this is full of balony.

after reading a few posts here, it seems to me that AK people feel *good* about your own ART than everybody else to the point they want to have their own way of doing thing and tell everybody else their ARt *logic or whatever BIG term you AIM at*.

Ed Parker Sr is the second to God ?????? it's surely LAUGHABLE

 this certainly goes WAY beyond the level of any NORMAL and EDUCATED person understanding

Look around, my friend. Do you see ANY none AK people claim their ART *logic* and claim their GM second to God ??

only you guys do that.

can i suggest you to drop all BS here and seriously have a good discussion and share what your *logic* art is?


----------



## cdhall (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *you obviously didn't read my previous post and have a good understanding about what i tried to say
> 
> You are telling me other *art* is not LOGIC and ONLY your Art is LOGIC ??? this is full of balony.*



My previous reply was lost, but quickly:

A. You and I are not communicating
B. I will try to come back later and reply to this post
C. I think the thread may be locked by then so I'll make 2 points quickly:


I don't understand that first sentence I quote from you
I never told you that my art is the only one based on logic.  I was extolling that fact as a virtue. I did not deny that virtue to any other art.  I think this flaw in your logic is known as a Straw Man but your entire post is a Slippery Slope as you draw new and increasingly unacceptable consequences from what I wrote.
[/list=1]


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 9, 2003)

CoolKempoDude,

If you do not want to post in the EPAK, section then do not.

If you do not want to read in that section then do not.

It is your choice.


As the Owner and Senior Admin stated, he put up a poll to ask what people thought about the idea. With 30 yes votes he thought it was worth the effort to try and give people the forum they were requesting for.

So, please drop the issue of the poll, and discuss someting that has to do with Martial Arts and or Kenpo/Kempo ?

Thank You
:asian:


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *My previous reply was lost, but quickly:
> 
> A. You and I are not communicating
> ...



 


i guess my logic doesn't work when it is NOT on your side AGAIN.??? oh boy


however, i'm looking forward to have a healthy discussion with you about my *logic*and perhaps your *logic* as well

1 last point to make. Of course, i'll read section in EPAK to see what kind of *logic* it is.

i don't have any problem with creating a new forum but i surely like to read what AK people have to say. Looking forward to


----------



## Klondike93 (Oct 9, 2003)

*Shour MT create a Kenpo-EPAK forum?* 

Could one of you please explain what a shour is?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 9, 2003)

Shure.

It meens I caint twpe wery gud. 



> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *Shour MT create a Kenpo-EPAK forum?
> 
> Could one of you please explain what a shour is?
> ...


----------



## cdhall (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *i guess my logic doesn't work when it is NOT on your side AGAIN.??? oh boy*



CoolKempoDude:

I have started a thread in the Study called "Logic" and we should move over there.  I really started it just to put up some info, but one thing that will be important to establish before we continue is that there is no such thing as "my" logic.

We must establish first what Logic is and that it exists in its own state regardless of anyone's opinion of it and regardless of whether someone is even aware of it or not.

Then and only then can we proceed to debate when and how it can or must apply.

I don't know if I want that thread to be anything but a link and some rules so maybe we can continue in a new thread or in private as you see fit.  Some of this though is stuff others need to know or correct me on though so I seem to prefer to do this on a thread.
:asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 9, 2003)

I just have to give this thread one star.


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> 
> We must establish first what Logic is and that it exists in its own state regardless of anyone's opinion of it and regardless of whether someone is even aware of it or not.
> ...



*we* means You and I ???

what kind of logic do you want to ESTABLISH ??? i'm sure this kind of establishment between you and me is a waste of time since we don't agree everything

and oh boy, i don't know any *logic* in AK techniques. Please do not ask me about it

without stirring thing up here,i read 1 post in this forum about ed parker *purchasing* belt from chow.

if that is the case, your *fact* *logic* AK is proven already 

there is not need for me to discuss *logic* with you any more


----------



## Klondike93 (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Screw it, it's not worth it.   All I wanted was consideration for splitting of the KENPO/KEMPO to a more select group of individuals that speak the same language without having to explain what gaseous expansion is three times.    F**k it.    With all the different people posting here you'd think we were taking something away from them, and I for one don't want to see a bunch of crybabies from other groups getting their panties in a knot because they're not doing EPAK.   God people, get your s**t together.   I'll just post over on CanAm where they do have a specific forum for us.
> 
> Clyde *



How many of you have gone over and checked these forums out?
I went over to see what he was talking about and I mostly read Kirk and a couple of others dogging Martial Talk. I read what he posts and boy does he read bitter  And now they have Clyde over there doing some dogging. So you know for me having Clyde gone is probably for the better. I did register to post over there but I probably will never visit again, too negative for my tastes (which if they read this I'm sure they'll say "good leave us alone ya anony*****", seems to be they're style now :shrug: )


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Orig. posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _*
> I just have to give this thread one star. *



I think you are being generous!

 :shrug:


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 9, 2003)

This thread is about played out.  We are so far off topic as to just be silly now guys.  I am locking this one down for posterities sake, so we can reference it when we wonder why in the heck we started the EPAK Forum.  A good dialogue with some mixed results, lost some people  gained a new forum. 

-Michael Billings
--MT Moderator--


----------

