# Hung Gar vs. Villari



## Jdokan

Maybe Lawdog can offer some early insight......USSD in the very early days, for my school anyways always discussed the 5 animals.....I am not a good historian and recently came across a Hung Gar website teaching the 5 animals....This led me to start thinking that maybe Fred Villari intertwined some Hung Gar into his system..????  Thoughts on this...


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## clfsean

Hung Ga is the quintessential "5 Animal" style of CMA. It & Ark Wong's Ng Ying Ng Ga Kuen (5 Animal 5 Family Fist) are what most people think when the phrase '5 Animal' comes up. 

'5 Animal' is also a very popular name for Southern CMA hand sets. Multiple styles have 5 Animal sets, a couple even have multiple. 

I know from reading around that Ed Parker spent some time with a Hung Ga guy as well as Ark Wong & Prof Chow's family art was a Hung Kuen style. However with kenpo being the amalgam it is, there's Hung Ga in it somewhere, but I wouldn't read too much into it since at this point the original Hung training is long gone, but is now a kenpo idea.


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## Flying Crane

clfsean said:


> Prof Chow's family art was a Hung Kuen style.


 
That is one story going around, but I personally am not convinced it's true.

I think Mr. Parker studied under a number of people, but whether or not he trained under a real Hung Gar sifu is not something I can verify or deny with any authority.


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## clfsean

Flying Crane said:


> That is one story going around, but I personally am not convinced it's true.



Hmm... sounds like somebody oughta fess up... cause like many that are outside looking in on it, I just repeated what I'd heard.



Flying Crane said:


> I think Mr. Parker studied under a number of people, but whether or not he trained under a real Hung Gar sifu is not something I can verify or deny with any authority.



Wasn't that Jimmy Woo (not Jimmy H from KFSS note) he spent some time with in LA a Hung Ga guy? I'd read that somewhere as well. 

Don't tell me it's getting to where you can't trust what you read on the net?!?!?!


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## Flying Crane

clfsean said:


> Hmm... sounds like somebody oughta fess up... cause like many that are outside looking in on it, I just repeated what I'd heard.


 
yeah, I know this is a common story. It just doesn't ring true to me. Seems to me that if Mr. Chow had learned a kungfu system like Hung Gar that had become part of his family tradition, it would have survived in some manner into what we do today in kenpo. But today's kenpo that I've seen, from the later Parker lineages to the earlier Tracy lineage that i study, looks NOTHING like hung gar. Granted, in Tracys we have adopted a version of Fu-Hok, but nobody pretends that that came from Chow's family. It was clearly and openly brought in from another source, and it's been thoroughly "kenpo-ized" and actually looks fairly different from a traditional hung gar version. It's clearly the same form, but the "quality" of the movement is different.

The Tracy brothers were early students of Mr. Parker, studying with him from about 1957 into the 1960s or something. They split off from Mr. Parker when Mr. Parker began making changes to the art that the Tracys did not agree with. The split was a gradual process, I'm not sure when it became complete. So what the Tracys kept, was closer to what Mr. Parker had learned from Mr. Chow. So if there was a true hung gar lineage thru Mr. Chow, it could be expected to be seen in Tracy kenpo. But it just isn't there.

I've spoken with another guy who studies kenpo under a lineage direct to Mr. Chow but not thru Ed Parker. He also studies taiji with my sifu. He has commented that he believes Mr. Chow did learn something from his father, but perhaps he dumped it in favor of what he learned later because he didn't feel it worked well. He was going to get me some article that explained it all, but I haven't seen it yet. So it's still a bit unclear to me and I remain skeptical about the whole thing.



> Wasn't that Jimmy Woo (not Jimmy H from KFSS note) he spent some time with in LA a Hung Ga guy? I'd read that somewhere as well.
> 
> Don't tell me it's getting to where you can't trust what you read on the net?!?!?!


 
Mr. Parker did spend time with Jimmy Woo. I'm not completely sure what Mr. Woo's background is. I think he trained under several teachers in different methods, and perhaps Hung Gar was one of them. I don't know exactly how long Mr. Parker's relationship with Mr. Woo lasted, but I don't think it was much more than a couple years, if that.

Whether or not Mr. Parker systematically studied hung gar with Mr. Woo is something that I simply don't know. I believe Mr. Parker did learn stuff from Mr. Woo. But if it wasn't a systematic study of a specific art, it could have been more of a hodge-podge. In that case I can't really justify saying that he "studied hung gar" with Mr. Woo.

honestly, I'm not the expert on this topic. I'm commenting based on what I've heard and on what sort of makes sense to me. I'm making conclusions, or remaining skeptical about various claims, based on what does or does not make sense to me, given the stories i've heard.

I know there are a lot of people who disagree with what I've said here.


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## pete

not sure if there is any connection at all between parker and villari.

there was a definite connection between parker and j.w.woo, which resulted in the 'Secrets of Chinese Karate' and the development of forms within parker's kenpo system, including of various hung gar forms such as tiger/crane and book (panther set). in fact parker's first black belt, jimmy ibrao, has continued studying with j.w.wu to this very day.

there is much controversy of what actually transpired during and at the breakup of parker/wu 'partnership', that i will leave to detail those who were actually there...

pete.


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## Flying Crane

pete said:


> not sure if there is any connection at all between parker and villari.


 
yes, I think we are pulling the thread off-topic.



> ...including of various hung gar forms such as tiger/crane and book (panther set).


 
I know that Panther set did come from Mr. Woo, it is still practiced in the Tracy lineage.  I am not convinced that Panther set is actually a Hung Gar set.  It would be interesting to show it to an accomplished hung gar guy and see what he says.


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## clfsean

Flying Crane said:


> I know that Panther set did come from Mr. Woo, it is still practiced in the Tracy lineage.  I am not convinced that Panther set is actually a Hung Gar set.  It would be interesting to show it to an accomplished hung gar guy and see what he says.



Is there video of it out anywhere? I'm not a Hung Ga by any stretch of the imagination, but I know enough about southern CMA & have been exposed to enough Hung Ga to have at least an informed opinion. CLF isn't that far removed from the Hung tree...


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## Flying Crane

clfsean said:


> Is there video of it out anywhere? I'm not a Hung Ga by any stretch of the imagination, but I know enough about southern CMA & have been exposed to enough Hung Ga to have at least an informed opinion. CLF isn't that far removed from the Hung tree...


 
I did see one out there once upon a time.  I'll see if I can find it again.


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## clfsean

Flying Crane said:


> I did see one out there once upon a time.  I'll see if I can find it again.



It this it??






If so... kinda, but not so much... 

The HaSayFu Panther set doesn't resemble that & I've never seen anything in the mainline LSW Hung Ga like that. It looks like something that was engineered for kenpo maybe.


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## Flying Crane

clfsean said:


> It this it??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so... kinda, but not so much...
> 
> The HaSayFu Panther set doesn't resemble that & I've never seen anything in the mainline LSW Hung Ga like that. It looks like something that was engineered for kenpo maybe.


 
By the label, it looks like that's it.  I'm at work, and I can't seem to play youtube videos here, altho I can access the website.  I'll have to check it later.


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## Flying Crane

clfsean said:


> The HaSayFu Panther set doesn't resemble that & I've never seen anything in the mainline LSW Hung Ga like that. *It looks like something that was engineered for kenpo maybe*.


 
That's an interesting last comment there.  I know it did come from Jimmy Woo, and my instructor recently went down to LA to visit with Mr. Woo and they discussed the set.  

Mr. Woo is apparently not the most open person to have a discussion with and he doesn't like to give information away too freely, especially to people who aren't his student.  But there is no question that the form came from him.  But where he got it is the mystery.


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## clfsean

Flying Crane said:


> That's an interesting last comment there.  I know it did come from Jimmy Woo, and my instructor recently went down to LA to visit with Mr. Woo and they discussed the set.
> 
> Mr. Woo is apparently not the most open person to have a discussion with and he doesn't like to give information away too freely, especially to people who aren't his student.  But there is no question that the form came from him.  But where he got it is the mystery.



Hmmm... don't get me wrong, there are some really old Hung Kuen lines out there that didn't follow suit with WFH's line & have some odd sets, but those don't look like the WFH sets, technique or movement. This has glimpes of WFH all over it, but it's nothing I've ever seen from a WFH (LSW/TF) line school.


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## Flying Crane

clfsean said:


> Hmmm... don't get me wrong, there are some really old Hung Kuen lines out there that didn't follow suit with WFH's line & have some odd sets, but those don't look like the WFH sets, technique or movement. This has glimpes of WFH all over it, but it's nothing I've ever seen from a WFH (LSW/TF) line school.


 

that's very much in line with what I've been thinking.

I also am aware that there are other hung gar lineages, some a good deal older.  I believe Wing Lam in Sunnyvale CA teaches one of them.

It's possible that this comes from one of those, and it's just a lineage that isn't seen much (or at all) here in the States.  But I've long held doubts about this set coming from hung gar.  I personally like the set, but I just don't think there is real clarity on its origins.

Supposedly there is a segment missing, that Mr. Woo never taught to the kenpo people.  There's been a bit of controversy over that, I'm not sure if it holds water or not.  But it's what I've heard.

And that sort of adds to the confusion, in my opinion.  It sort of suggests that maybe Mr. Woo actually created the form, and the "missing" section, if it exists, maybe was developed later or something.


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## Flying Crane

clfsean said:


> It this it??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so... kinda, but not so much...
> 
> The HaSayFu Panther set doesn't resemble that & I've never seen anything in the mainline LSW Hung Ga like that. It looks like something that was engineered for kenpo maybe.




Yup, that's it. I don't find this rendition to be especially well done, however.


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## SL4Drew

Flying Crane said:


> That's an interesting last comment there. I know it did come from Jimmy Woo, and my instructor recently went down to LA to visit with Mr. Woo and they discussed the set.
> 
> Mr. Woo is apparently not the most open person to have a discussion with and he doesn't like to give information away too freely, especially to people who aren't his student. But there is no question that the form came from him. But where he got it is the mystery.


 
I believe that Woo was a student of Ark Wong's, at least at some point.  Maybe it came from there.  Doc might know.


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## MeatWad2

Jdokan said:


> Maybe Lawdog can offer some early insight......USSD in the very early days, for my school anyways always discussed the 5 animals.....I am not a good historian and recently came across a Hung Gar website teaching the 5 animals....This led me to start thinking that maybe Fred Villari intertwined some Hung Gar into his system..????  Thoughts on this...



I personally don't think there is any Hung Gar in the system.  Mainly because I study it now and don't really see it in the SKK system.  I could be wrong though...


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## punisher73

From the history I have read on SKK, they trace their roots through Kajukenbo (and then if you go further you would find Chow through the Emperado lineage but it was not a direct study with Villar/Chow).  Parker was a direct student of Chow, when he came to the US he did study with some Chinese masters.

From what I have read, Parker and Woo worked together to bring in the forms that were in early kenpo.  Parker always had the final say in the matter.  Parker was influenced by Hung Gar so you will see elements in it, but it was always blended with his vision of kenpo.  So even the forms like, Panther set and Tiger/Crane are NOT direct from their kung fu source, they were altered to fit into the kenpo of that time.  As other forms were developed and the art evolved past that the forms were removed for the "pure kenpo" forms/sets that we have today.

As for the "Kung Fu" element in SKK, that is VERY open to debate.  Some people say that Villari never learned kung fu from anybody and made up all of the "shaolin" elements.  Others say that he did study with some masters and the forms come from that study.  I have never heard that it was Hung Gar and the forms that SKK does have do NOT resemble any forms  in Hung Gar at all, either in appearance or in name.

SKK _does _however utilize the 5 animal concept and has created defense combos based on the strategies and attributes of these animals.  Again, I don't think that they are a direct import from Hung Gar though.


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## TenTigers

well, being a former instructor for Tracy's as well as for Villari's,(hey, we all did some things we're not proud of...) and having over thirty years in Martial Arts, twenty years in Hung-Gar, both Tang-Fong as well as Lam Sai-Wing versions and Village Hung Kuen, I can state with some authority that Tracy's and Parkers definately contain certain "Hung-Gar-isms" and Villari does not. Villari's doesn't have any authentic Kung-Fu in their techniques. All the so-called animal techniques are his own personal interpetation, and are not related to anything Chinese. 
I have also met a man who studied a Hung Kuen system descended from WFH through Malaysia, which was in fact, very Kenpo-like in its application. Lightning fast barrages of techniques, all flowing from one to the other, very close in and aggressive.
Is Kenpo descended from Hung-Gar? We may never know, but there are many similarities to Southern Siu-Lum within the system.


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## Josh Oakley

pete said:


> not sure if there is any connection at all between parker and villari.
> 
> there was a definite connection between parker and j.w.woo, which resulted in the 'Secrets of Chinese Karate' and the development of forms within parker's kenpo system, including of various hung gar forms such as tiger/crane and book (panther set). in fact parker's first black belt, jimmy ibrao, has continued studying with j.w.wu to this very day.
> 
> there is much controversy of what actually transpired during and at the breakup of parker/wu 'partnership', that i will leave to detail those who were actually there...
> 
> pete.


 
If there were a connection between Parker and Villari, I would imagine it to be Professor Cerio.


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## marlon

I am on my phone so I cannot post the link directly but if you go to you tube and search kenpo leopard form I believe you will find the same bookset form there done by others
Marlon


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## shaolinmonkmark

TenTigers said:


> well, being a former instructor for Tracy's as well as for Villari's,(hey, we all did some things we're not proud of...) and having over thirty years in Martial Arts, twenty years in Hung-Gar, both Tang-Fong as well as Lam Sai-Wing versions and Village Hung Kuen, I can state with some authority that Tracy's and Parkers definately contain certain "Hung-Gar-isms" and Villari does not. Villari's doesn't have any authentic Kung-Fu in their techniques. All the so-called animal techniques are his own personal interpetation, and are not related to anything Chinese.
> I have also met a man who studied a Hung Kuen system descended from WFH through Malaysia, which was in fact, very Kenpo-like in its application. Lightning fast barrages of techniques, all flowing from one to the other, very close in and aggressive.
> Is Kenpo descended from Hung-Gar? We may never know, but there are many similarities to Southern Siu-Lum within the system.


 


Professor Cerio was Very proficient in Sil Lum.
This was also engrained into Villari(when Villari was a student under him) and to Mattera(USSD)
And his other under Nick Cerio KEmpo.
http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/professor_cerio_pages/professor_cerio_biography.html

get to paragraph about chinese food. : o P

According to who i have talked to, Cerio was heavily influenced by Sil Lum, and later, Fu Jow Pai.


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## TenTigers

well, it does not show up in any of his forms, or movement, so if he actually learned any Gung-Fu, he kept it a very closely guarded secret.
Are there any vids say, on youtube, that show any of this Gung-Fu? Even a simple form? 
Making tiger claws, crane beaks, and snake heads, and waving your hands in circles doesn't suddenly make it Gung-Fu. That worked in the 70's during the Kung-Fu Kraze. All the Karate/Kenpo schools suddenly showed up at tournaments in Chinese outfits, knife hand blocks became claws,and suddenly everyone had a dahn-dao. But the forms, the movement, the body, the technique was not even close. The public bought into it, because they don't know the difference, but those of us in the Chinese Martial Arts community did not.
He also mentioned he trained with Chin for three years and was awarded Hachidan and Sifuship. After three years? Be serious. Even the most talented of high-ranking Black Belts cannot absorb a system's intricacies in three years to the point of being a Sifu. Sure, you can learn a handful of forms, but forms collecting is different than a comprehensive understanding of the structures, concepts, technique, etc.. I suppose you may be granted permission to teach, just as all these organizations open up schools and have distance learning, licenscing agreements, franchises, etc. 
Besides, how can a Sifu in Siu-Lum bestow Hachidan, if it is a different system? 
So, you're saying that if you do Kenpo, and I teach you Siu-Lum, I can give you a higher rank?_ In what_? Then what does that rank actually mean? That's just collecting certificates. "You lie, and I'll swear to it." Sure, it happens all the time. There are the "Good Ol' Boys Clubs," organizations of fellow Martial Artists that support each other and promote each other. But when you get past the ornate certificates, awards, Hall of Fame Banquets, picture taking, and backslapping, what is the actual intrinsic value?


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## TenTigers

"SKK _does _however utilize the 5 animal concept and has created defense combos based on the strategies and attributes of these animals. Again, I don't think that they are a direct import from Hung Gar though. "
__________________

Someone explain these Five Animal concepts and techniques as taught in SKK. When I was in Villaris, their interpetation was very different from anything I have ever seen in any Siu-Lum system.


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## shaolinmonkmark

TenTigers said:


> well, it does not show up in any of his forms, or movement, so if he actually learned any Gung-Fu, he kept it a very closely guarded secret.
> Are there any vids say, on youtube, that show any of this Gung-Fu? Even a simple form?
> Making tiger claws, crane beaks, and snake heads, and waving your hands in circles doesn't suddenly make it Gung-Fu. That worked in the 70's during the Kung-Fu Kraze. All the Karate/Kenpo schools suddenly showed up at tournaments in Chinese outfits, knife hand blocks became claws,and suddenly everyone had a dahn-dao. But the forms, the movement, the body, the technique was not even close. The public bought into it, because they don't know the difference, but those of us in the Chinese Martial Arts community did not.
> He also mentioned he trained with Chin for three years and was awarded Hachidan and Sifuship. After three years? Be serious. Even the most talented of high-ranking Black Belts cannot absorb a system's intricacies in three years to the point of being a Sifu. Sure, you can learn a handful of forms, but forms collecting is different than a comprehensive understanding of the structures, concepts, technique, etc.. I suppose you may be granted permission to teach, just as all these organizations open up schools and have distance learning, licenscing agreements, franchises, etc.
> Besides, how can a Sifu in Siu-Lum bestow Hachidan, if it is a different system?
> So, you're saying that if you do Kenpo, and I teach you Siu-Lum, I can give you a higher rank?_ In what_? Then what does that rank actually mean? That's just collecting certificates. "You lie, and I'll swear to it." Sure, it happens all the time. There are the "Good Ol' Boys Clubs," organizations of fellow Martial Artists that support each other and promote each other. But when you get past the ornate certificates, awards, Hall of Fame Banquets, picture taking, and backslapping, what is the actual intrinsic value?


 


cerio used sil lum, for "Bits and pieces of sil lum, and the animal styles, to increase and create more techniques."

Alot of people look at NCK Kempo and say, "i do not see the animals, "
you are right, they are all as one.


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## LawDog

The early SKK did not have any Hung Gar in it. The early SKK did have some Hawiian Kempo in, it also had T.K.D. added, crude Judo and Jujitsu. The original SKK / USSD system was labled Kenpo Karate and the very early Cerio and USSD patches reflected this. Later in the 70's the "Shaolin" was added to the USSD patch along with the Kempo spelling.
Bruce Lee and the Kung Fu series changed everything so much that the "Shaolin" name was used as a marketing tool by many schools and organizations.
During the 70's some of the USSD black belts began cross training in in various Kung Fu systems under Masters like Yao Lee, Yon Lee, Bow Sim Mark, W.P. Woo and so on. 
Back then this Kung fu craze was so big that many students had the "Shaolin" tattoo's place on the underside of their forearms, I know of a few that did do it.
The animals, in some of the early presets they did exist, later on many of the presets were altered slighly so they would represet the various animals.
The early SKK is like a jig saw puzzle, listen to those who were there during the early time period and who also do not have any vested interest in the subject.


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## shaolinmonkmark

from reading various books on professor chow, here is what i have read:

Son of a Buddhist Monk, Soon Chow, who was a shaolin chuan fa master.
Chow also studied Hung gar, and kosh ryu kempo, and made/blended the circle and the line.He was a master of The 7 death arts including scorpion and snake techniques.
Upon his death, 5 of the "Death Arts" were lost.


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## LawDog

Remember that GM Pesare left California with the rank of purple belt, he did not stay long enough to learn alot. On his own web site he lists the styles that he studied and the rank / level that he had attained. His own system was / is based on alot of the techniques that he learned while training in these other systems.
Early on GM Cerio trained with S.G.M. Chow for only a few weeks. Before G.M.Cerio had started training with other Kenpo / Kempo Masters and began cross training, Villari had all ready left him.
So Kempo / Kenpo today is what it is, Eclectic.
:hmm:


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## Xinglu

shaolinmonkmark said:


> from reading various books on professor chow, here is what i have read:
> 
> Son of a Buddhist Monk, Soon Chow...


That would be *H*oon, not Soon.


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## shaolinmonkmark

Xinglu said:


> That would be *H*oon, not Soon.


 
aplogies on the spelling, mr X!


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## Xinglu

shaolinmonkmark said:


> aplogies on the spelling, mr X!



LOL no worries, I figured you're fingers got away from you!


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## Josh Oakley

I remember something about our actual animal forms coming from Tak Wah Eng. Actually, I also remember learning USSD's Shaolin Tiger and asking where it was from and being told it came from  "Master Tak", although, my instructor had no idea who tak wah eng was.


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## dianhsuhe

Josh Oakley said:


> I remember something about our actual animal forms coming from Tak Wah Eng. Actually, I also remember learning USSD's Shaolin Tiger and asking where it was from and being told it came from "Master Tak", although, my instructor had no idea who tak wah eng was.


 
It would concern me if my instructor did not know that...LOL


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## Josh Oakley

I'm not. She knows his martial arts. That's what I care about. I care about what he can teach me. He and his instructor aren't focused on the history. I can respect it, based on all he's done for his students and his dedication to the art. 

I personally want to know the history, so I know the history, but knowing the history doesn't really make me better at the martial arts than my instructor, last time I checked.


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## dianhsuhe

What is that saying?  "Those who don't know History are...."

*I* just said *I* would be concerned...

If you are with U.S.S.D. you have already drank the kool-aid as far as I am concerned, I wish you well but realize dialogue does not generally prove effective against such students.

Does the training manual still list Mattera coming from Cerio coming from Professor Chow?  ( hope not)


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## Josh Oakley

dianhsuhe said:


> What is that saying? "Those who don't know History are...."
> 
> *I* just said *I* would be concerned...
> 
> If you are with U.S.S.D. you have already drank the kool-aid as far as I am concerned, I wish you well but realize dialogue does not generally prove effective against such students.
> 
> Does the training manual still list Mattera coming from Cerio coming from Professor Chow? ( hope not)


 
Actually, it doesn't even list Cerio anymore. Frankly I wonder why they even bother putting in a history section, if history is going to be so downplayed in importance.


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## Josh Oakley

dianhsuhe said:


> What is that saying? "Those who don't know History are...."
> 
> *I* just said *I* would be concerned...


 
Yes. It was _totally_ unreasonable for me to draw the conclusion that you were implying that I should be concerned as well. How silly of me to think that someone typing in english in a public forum would ever do _that_.

So then, if you were _not_  implying that, then perhaps you were trying to get me to ask, "_why would it concern you?"_

Okay, I'll bite. Why would it concern you?


If it's not one of those two thinks, I can't see the point of your post. Please help me. 

BTW. Not all USSD instructors are kool-aid drinkers. Amazingly enough, there are many of us with our own brains. It's crazy, I know. But i've been a martial artist long before USSD and if I leave I'll still be a martial artist. I would assume that if I got all my information solely from USSD, you'd have a valid point that I drink the Kool-aid (which I took to mean I'm a blind follower of the party line). Thing is, I'm too much a free thinker to do that. I've actually--_gasp--_ disagreed with my DM on many occasions. _AMAZING!_

So don't insult my intelligence, and don't weasel out of claims you make or imply. You had a reason for posting. Don't back down now, based on a prejudiced oppinion of someone you've never even _met_. I don't represent USSD. I represent ME.

Heck, the fact that I can actually comment on something about a possible villari-parker connection should be proof enough that I don't just follow the manual.


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## dianhsuhe

dianhsuhe said:


> *I wish you well but realize dialogue does not generally prove effective against such students.*


 
...


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## Josh Oakley

You're a prejudiced, closeminded pseudointellectual, and if you weren't going to discuss something with me, you shouldn't have posed a response to something I said, especially given your prejudice against USSD instructors. your words don't line up. 

So dialogue doesn't prove effective against students who drank the kool-aid, but even though you believe that and believe that statement applies to me, YOU began talking to ME. Let's keep that clear. 

Now I've challenged your stance and you go all _ad hominim circumsantial_ on me.

Coward. 

Go ahead and just repost those three dots again so you can sit there all smug in your own superiority. You won't finish what you start? Cool. I've got better things to do. Have your last word, if you can't resist. Either way, I'm still calling you an pathetic, passive-agressive pansy.

Grow a pair, you useless malcontent.


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## Flying Crane

dianhsuhe said:


> If you are with U.S.S.D. you have already drank the kool-aid as far as I am concerned,


 
Such accusations can be made about virtually anyone who belongs to any lineage.  "What?  You follow XXXX Sensei?  He's a crazy deceiver.  You've clearly drunken from the kool aid."  

I've had such things said to me here on the forums, as a practitioner of the Tracy method.  It sucks and it's prejudiced bull-****.

Comments like that do not open doors, nor encourage dialogue.

Jamey,  I'd like to encourage you to rethink that comment.  Thanks.


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## jamz

That's the best rant I've read all week! 


Often an accuser's words reveal much more about him than they do about you.


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## dianhsuhe

I take it back, I am sorry to have insulted your school and/or lineage.  I have had bad experiences with that system and heard soo many horror stories about them that I jumped on the band-wagon.

I apologize for judging you prematurely and impulsively.

I do, however, stand by my statement that I would be concerned if my instructor did not know much about the origin of the kata or who created it.  THAT IS JUST ME-

There are probably loads of good people in your system as there are in most systems but it would be hard to argue the track record and reputation of the USSD organization- right or wrong, most people consider them McDojo's.

Flying Crane-  Thanks for your correct observation and suggestion, although you are very nearly stalking me 

As far as dialogue?  USSD is not an org. that I care to share the mat with.

Jamey


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## Flying Crane

thanks for coming back to the table.



dianhsuhe said:


> I do, however, stand by my statement that I would be concerned if my instructor did not know much about the origin of the kata or who created it. THAT IS JUST ME-
> 
> 
> 
> I will comment that this is often only possible with some of the newer systems like kenpo.  In many of the older systems the creator of a kata might get forgotten at some point.  Especially when it crosses over into another culture.  I'd say some of the non-native speakers might have a hard time remembering the names of some dead Asian guys who created their kata 200 years ago.  Sometimes this info just won't survive the cultural translation and the years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flying Crane- Thanks for your correct observation and suggestion, although you are very nearly stalking me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was about to say "I was here first!" but then I checked your join date.  You've got me beat.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## LawDog

From all good systems there will emerge many bad instructors / students.
From all bad systems there will emerge many good instructors / students.
Do not judge the system only those who emerge from them.
:argue:


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## dianhsuhe

Well put Mr. Cunningham!

Michael-  I agree although Tak Wah Eng is a relatively current figure I think.  I was more concerned that if my teacher did not know who the creator was, he may not have a good grasp on the "bunkai" for the kata, but that is also an assumption.

I am often embarrassed on these forums for reacting too quickly to certain topics.  I guess, even at 39 with almost 20 years in the arts I need to put humility on the menu de jour!  LOL

Take care folks,
Jamey


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## Josh Oakley

dianhsuhe said:


> As far as dialogue? USSD is not an org. that I care to share the mat with.
> 
> Jamey


 

Apology accepted. But I have to ask... from a logical standpoint, if you had no intention of going into dialogue with me, then why did you post a response to something I said? 

Also, why would you respond to _me_ with "It would concern me if my instructor didn't know that... LOL" if you were just stating that without any concept of influencing my oppinion? And merely saying "THAT'S JUST ME" is not a valid escape. If it is just your oppinion, and you had no intent to influence another person's thinking or at least enter into a discussion, *why post?*

Were you just saying it to say it? Frankly, I really hope that wasn't the case. I'm hoping you _were_ trying to influence my or someone's oppinion. Otherwise I just can't see a point to the post at all.


Plus, heck, let's compare and contrast. My instructor _knows_ that Kata 6 was created by George Pesare, but it doesn't influence how he teaches Kata 6 one way or another. I wanted to know George Pesare's intent on certain aspects of the form. You know what _George Pesare_ told me? "Talk to your instructor. I don't usurp authority."

So let's break this down logically: The guy who _created the form_ would rather I learn my instructor's take on it than his. So in this counter-case, knowing who the _creator_ is, and knowing how to get ahold of him does me and my instructor no good. Likely if my instructor's instructor wrote him he'd get the same response.

I'd also like to note that George Pesare is arguably more important a contributor to the material that wound up in USSD's material than is Tak Wah Eng.


So without going into _ad hominims _and without retreating from the discussion (which you entered into, let's keep in mind) let me ask you these questions, keeping in mind my counter-example:

Why does knowing the lineage of a form necessarily make one's understanding of a form any better? If knowing the lineage of a form does not necessarily improve one's understanding of the form, then why should it concern anyone to hear of an instructor who doesn't know the lineage?


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## Josh Oakley

dianhsuhe said:


> Well put Mr. Cunningham!
> 
> Michael- I agree although Tak Wah Eng is a relatively current figure I think. I was more concerned that if my teacher did not know who the creator was, he may not have a good grasp on the "bunkai" for the kata, but that is also an assumption.


 
Counter-point: I _know _who the creator is and I don't have a good grasp on the bunkai for the kata. 

Logically speaking, the only two factors what would determine whether my instructor has a good grasp on the bunkai is if my instructor's instructor has a good grasp on the bunkai, and if my instructor learned it in the way that his instructor was taught.


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## shaolinmonkmark

LawDog said:


> From all good systems there will emerge many bad instructors / students.
> From all bad systems there will emerge many good instructors / students.
> Do not judge the system only those who emerge from them.
> :argue:


 


those words humble me, sir.
I thank you!

As for USSD not crediting Cerio, Funny, who gave mattera his 8th degree, and taught him the rank up to 9th then?
LOL!


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## Josh Oakley

Actually I never said they don't credit Cerio. I said he's not in the manual. He's very much on the website.

The question was about the manual.


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## dianhsuhe

Hi Josh,

The "dialogue" reference is from another board and refers to intermingling with other kenpo systems, seminars, ohana get togethers, etc. Not typing on message boards.

I have apologized...

Jamey


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## Josh Oakley

And your apology was accepted. And you've _still_ dodged my response to your initial post. So I'll repost:



> Keeping in mind my counter-points. Why does knowing the lineage of a form necessarily make one's understanding of a form any better? If knowing the lineage of a form does not necessarily improve one's understanding of the form, then why should it concern anyone to hear of an instructor who doesn't know the lineage?


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## Xinglu

If I may, I think knowing the lineage completes one's knowledge.  It may or may not affect one's application in the following: if the creator was versed in TCM, they might be using dianxue and that would affect a lot of things.  Furthermore, they practiced Neijia, then that might affect the flow and feel of the kata.  One instructor teaches a kata differently then the next, and a lot can be lost through the generations.  Knowing it's origins might help some garner more knowledge about their art and some quirks about how it might work at a deeper level.


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## shaolinmonkmark

Xinglu said:


> If I may, I think knowing the lineage completes one's knowledge. It may or may not affect one's application in the following: if the creator was versed in TCM, they might be using dianxue and that would affect a lot of things. Furthermore, they practiced Neijia, then that might affect the flow and feel of the kata. One instructor teaches a kata differently then the next, and a lot can be lost through the generations. Knowing it's origins might help some garner more knowledge about their art and some quirks about how it might work at a deeper level.


 

i do concur.
I still believe alot of Hungar is in skk.


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## LawDog

ShaolinMonkMark,
People should visit GM Cerio's web page, there they will see the name of C.Matteria and other USSD / FVSD people listed on the lineage page.
Many of the USSD and FVSD guys that have been listed on GM Cerios web site will never state that they were originally ranked through the USSD / FVSD systems.


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## shaolinmonkmark

LawDog said:


> ShaolinMonkMark,
> People should visit GM Cerio's web page, there they will see the name of C.Matteria and other USSD / FVSD people listed on the lineage page.
> Many of the USSD and FVSD guys that have been listed on GM Cerios web site will never state that they were originally ranked through the USSD / FVSD systems.


 

my name is there listed as a black belt under cerio.
I hold pride to that.
First name mark.


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## shaolinmonkmark

shaolinmonkmark said:


> my name is there listed as a black belt under cerio.
> I hold pride to that.
> First name mark.


 

http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/system_pages/family_tree.html


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## RevIV

Xinglu said:


> If I may, I think knowing the lineage completes one's knowledge. It may or may not affect one's application in the following: if the creator was versed in TCM, they might be using dianxue and that would affect a lot of things. Furthermore, they practiced Neijia, then that might affect the flow and feel of the kata. One instructor teaches a kata differently then the next, and a lot can be lost through the generations. Knowing it's origins might help some garner more knowledge about their art and some quirks about how it might work at a deeper level.


 
In respects to the Kata's taught from SGM Pesares line,  I found it very useful to go back to him and learn them the original ways - same with the combinations.  It also allowed me to build a line from where and who changed parts of the forms all the way from Pesare - cerio - Villari -masters - to myself.  The bunkai deciphering was a different story and a lot of the things taught to me from people of the Kaju decent helped to give me a different insight to what was happening.  Palama 1 for example helped me change bunkai's in 1 kata, as well as 2.


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## Josh Oakley

shaolinmonkmark said:


> http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/system_pages/family_tree.html


 
Narrows you down to five.


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## shaolinmonkmark

)


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## Josh Oakley

Xinglu said:


> If I may, I think knowing the lineage completes one's knowledge. It may or may not affect one's application in the following: if the creator was versed in TCM, they might be using dianxue and that would affect a lot of things. Furthermore, they practiced Neijia, then that might affect the flow and feel of the kata. One instructor teaches a kata differently then the next, and a lot can be lost through the generations. Knowing it's origins might help some garner more knowledge about their art and some quirks about how it might work at a deeper level.


 

Assuming the origin is forthcoming with such knowledge.


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## Xinglu

Josh Oakley said:


> Assuming the origin is forthcoming with such knowledge.



Not at all.  If Sensei X trained in styles a,b, and c, and was creating katas in style a, then it would be prudent to consider what styles b & c might be contributing.  In arts like kenpo where it is common to cannibalize things from other arts it helps to know something about the arts it is borrowing from. 

New katas are created to impart knowledge not included in the old katas, so if Sensei X is making a new kata for style a, it is probably to bring in new information from either style b or style c (or both!).

Knowing that styles b & c went into this new kata, it is easier to isolate the newly introduced principles and may give the student more information to understand their art better.

Now if you mean that Sensei X hid the fact that he studied styles b & c, and was thus not forthcoming in that regards, then sure that would make further exploration of the applications a lot harder!


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## Josh Oakley

That makes sense.


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## dianhsuhe

Xing-Lu is clearly smarter and better at illiterating on these message boards.

Please send me the bill Xing-Lu!

Jamey


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> In respects to the Kata's taught from SGM Pesares line, I found it very useful to go back to him and learn them the original ways - same with the combinations. It also allowed me to build a line from where and who changed parts of the forms all the way from Pesare - cerio - Villari -masters - to myself. The bunkai deciphering was a different story and a lot of the things taught to me from people of the Kaju decent helped to give me a different insight to what was happening. Palama 1 for example helped me change bunkai's in 1 kata, as well as 2.


 
why change the applications instead of adding?


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## RevIV

marlon said:


> why change the applications instead of adding?


 
not sure what you mean.  The bunkais I had in the forms the way I originally learned them would not longer fit because I am doing the forms the original way now from SGM Pesare.  so I had to change those things because certain movements are now different.  And going to the palama forms has helped me put some of the pieces together.


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> not sure what you mean. The bunkais I had in the forms the way I originally learned them would not longer fit because I am doing the forms the original way now from SGM Pesare. so I had to change those things because certain movements are now different. And going to the palama forms has helped me put some of the pieces together.


 
Ah, so your movements are different.  I missed that point and so my last comment does not apply at all.  Hope all is well Jesse

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Buka

Reading our forum at work, this old thread from 2009 mysteriously popped onto my phone. As I was reading it it disappeared.

Fortunately I remembered the thread title and did a search so I could finish reading it,

I came to a couple conclusions. One, I’ll never figure out how these damn phones work.

And Two...people were arguing back in 09 just as much as they do today.


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## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> Reading our forum at work, this old thread from 2009 mysteriously popped onto my phone. As I was reading it it disappeared.
> 
> Fortunately I remembered the thread title and did a search so I could finish reading it,
> 
> I came to a couple conclusions. One, I’ll never figure out how these damn phones work.
> 
> And Two...people were arguing back in 09 just as much as they do today.


I sometimes enjoy going back and reading through old threads.  It reminds me of the people who used to participate here, but have moved on.  Some old friends in these old threads. 

This one was interesting to me, to read my own old contributions to the discussion.  Reminded me of what I was working on and where my mind was at that time, more than a decade ago.


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## Buka

Flying Crane said:


> I sometimes enjoy going back and reading through old threads.  It reminds me of the people who used to participate here, but have moved on.  Some old friends in these old threads.
> 
> This one was interesting to me, to read my own old contributions to the discussion.  Reminded me of what I was working on and where my mind was at that time, more than a decade ago.



I really enjoyed the whole thread. I especially enjoyed your posts. 

I wish I could figure out how the heck it showed up on my phone out of nowhere,


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