# "Tradition", "Promotion", Grandmaster?



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 21, 2007)

Discussions over a few years have led me to ask this possibly heated question. I ask it, meaning no insult or slight to those specifically named.

In the FMA, what does it mean to be "traditionally promoted?"

Some examples would be, who declared such respected masters as Remy Presas, Antonio Tatang Ilustrisimo, Edgar Sulite, Anciong Bacon and others, "Grandmaster"?

The argument of promotion, and where to go, and who to see comes up from time to time, and my own information on many of these and other masters is sparse.  So, this is a 2 part question.  1 part is, who promoted them? and 2, traditionally, before the influence of the Japanese system of belts or Chinese system of sashes, etc, how did ranks and promotions work in the Filipino arts?


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## kuntawguro (Mar 21, 2007)

As I posted in FMA belt ranks- Prior to 1972 there was not a need for ranks in FMA- the Philippine Govt  forced many to adopt ranking systems to participate in  National events- so  many bowed to the decree. Prior to that there were students and instructors- Kyuds- kyudais  Tatang. Rank means nothing- knowledge  earns respect ability earns respect- a piece of cloth  earns nothing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,




http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1180


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 21, 2007)

So, to pull a name or 2 off the list, Edgar Sulite and Remy Presas were GMs because, they were GM's and no one 'authorized' or 'promoted' them to that point?

By that I mean, they didn't go to someone and say "recognize me", they just did their thing and eventually people recognized them as leaders?

??


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## kuntawguro (Mar 21, 2007)

I cannot speak of which I know nothing. Tho I suspect their peers  named them.  I met "Prof" Presas in 1976 and trained on and off with him for 6 years. He was not known as GM then- just prof or Remy.  Where he obtained his GM rank from- others will have to say.


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## arnisador (Mar 21, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Remy Presas, Antonio Tatang Ilustrisimo, Edgar Sulite, Anciong Bacon



They earned the title Grandmaster the traditional way--when their students started calling them that, and their peers accepted it.

Remy Presas had the title "Professor" from when he was associated with a university in the Phil.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 22, 2007)

I will not speak of those I do not know but I do know of one FMA instructor who would only claim the title of instructor until pressured by others in the martial arts community to accept the title of Master and then years later GM.  The mans peers asked him to accept these titles so that his students would have a base and top of the ladder upon which they could hope to climb. 
Maybe its just an American thing, because the mans students where happy being students and then instructors on their own under this mans banner with him always being the head instructor.
As for how others got their titles I'll let them or their students or those that know more of the history of varrious arts say


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## oosh (Mar 22, 2007)

"Antonio Tatang Ilustrisimo"

As far as I am aware, the Ilustrisimo family itself decided Tatang would be the head of the family system after the death of his uncle Melicio Ilustrisimo.


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## Epa (Mar 23, 2007)

With the different masters you listed, I think the primary reason they were acknowledged as grandmasters is because they applied their art and earned reputations as good fighters. The men Bob mentioned are pretty good examples: 

Antonio Ilustrisimo had numerous documented matches with both sticks and blades. 

Anciong Bacon killed a man in self defense when he was attacked and may have had other challenge matches before that (I don't know). 

I don't know for sure, but I have been told that it was Remy Presas' performance in several stick fights which impressed Anciong Bacon enough to accept him as a student. 

I thought that Edgar Sulite took part in no armor stickfighting matches. I believe that's how he met the Ilustrisimo group because he was scheduled to fight Yuli Romo, but the promotor couldn't pay them. So the two fighters demoed for each other and became friends. I think this was mentioned in one of the bios on Edgar Sulite (maybe Wiley's book). 

You can't argue with results. Whether these engagements were challenge matches, sanctioned fights, or self defense situations these men all proved that they could apply their art. If you can prove your style works, then it's pretty easy to be accepted by the community and acknowledged as a teacher. Like others have said a lot of it was based on being accepted as a skilled individual by your peers in the community.


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## thekuntawman (Mar 27, 2007)

tradition, promotion, and grandmaster,

are all words that do not go together in filipino philippine fighting arts. filipino fighters did not go and sign up like you do here in the US. sure some of us took arnis in grade school, maybe even "signed up" for lessons at a building, but my best teachers did not have schools, they taught at home, and one teach at a park near his house. the closest thing to a school _traditionally_ is a porch, with sticks and a roof covering it thats it!

many masters today have a little more money and a litle more sofisticated, so they have logos, schools, certificates, buildings etc. no problem with that, you just have to have the skills to back it up, or some tough guys in your gym to make you look good.

one thing i can tell you, these days, nobody is going to walk up to a master at his home and challenge him to fight. but they will do it to your school or your seminar. and we all see, they will do it very quickly here in the internet!  

anyway, most of the time, a young man (50 and under) who is calling himself "grandmaster" or something like that, i look at as a fool with no history. i think i speak for most filipino FMA teachers, when i say, skill is respected, rank is for advertisements. only with the ignorant people, will somebody say "you are what degree? what title? you study with who??? ooh, _you must be good_!" no, i think the traditional guy will look at the promotion guy and think "i bet he cant beat me..."

two traditional guys will get together and find out. then after that, he might tell the other one about his background.


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