# Anyone familiar with Dragons Pride?



## DiveInArts222 (Aug 6, 2018)

I think it was a Kung Fu or TKD Hapkido school for self defense. Does anyone know about it?


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 6, 2018)

The world is a big place... you might want to provide a little more information if you're hoping for a helpful reply.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 6, 2018)

If you're talking about the place on merrick (i'm assuming li from your other post), i'm pretty sure it shut down. No clue why.


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## DiveInArts222 (Aug 6, 2018)

Yeah I think that's the place. Is there a reason why it closed down? Is there a similar place in a different location?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 6, 2018)

No clue. But it happens a lot, not all martial artists are good businessmen. As far as i know, it didnt reopen, and i couldnt find anything with a quick google search


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## DiveInArts222 (Aug 6, 2018)

When that happens does it mean those are bad schools? I heard from someone it was a good place but that's one opinion. I'm not sure if it's true or not cause the place is non existence now cause I thought it was still around. 

Is there a difference between a good businessman and good instructor? 

If an instructor is real good but doesn't teach anymore mean that they really weren't that good?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 6, 2018)

DiveInArts222 said:


> When that happens does it mean those are bad schools? I heard from someone it was a good place but that's one opinion. I'm not sure if it's true or not cause the place is non existence now cause I thought it was still around.
> 
> Is there a difference between a good businessman and good instructor?
> 
> If an instructor is real good but doesn't teach anymore mean that they really weren't that good?


There could be a million reasons for it.  A good business man or a bad business man could be a poor teacher, or could be a good teacher.  Maybe he just decided to retire, or got tired of it and wanted to do something else.  Trying to make a living as a martial arts instructor can be very difficult.  Lots of schools close after giving it a good run.  So it’s hard to say, it does not automatically mean something bad.


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## Ryan_ (Aug 7, 2018)

Most start up businesses (which martial art schools usually are) fail.
The businesses which don't fail usually take 3 years or so to break even. (May be different when exclusively referring to martial arts)
There's several reasons a place may shut down but I would note I'm not familiar with this place so this is just a general list:
Not making profit (therefore it is not sustainable and forced to shut down)
Instructor may have had unfortunate circumstances / no one to take over dojo
There may have been struggling to get large classes (which goes to first point..)

Great instructors may not have great marketing which could lead to small classes, financial losses and unable to afford dojo rent or insurance for classes.

How many times do you see that all dojos do to market is have a website, and are listed on a website which lists "dojos near me"?


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## WaterGal (Aug 7, 2018)

DiveInArts222 said:


> When that happens does it mean those are bad schools? I heard from someone it was a good place but that's one opinion. I'm not sure if it's true or not cause the place is non existence now cause I thought it was still around.
> 
> Is there a difference between a good businessman and good instructor?
> 
> If an instructor is real good but doesn't teach anymore mean that they really weren't that good?



A lot of martial arts schools are started by someone that loves martial arts, is talented at martial arts, is experienced at teaching martial arts.... and doesn't know the first thing about running a business. Being good at teaching martial arts and being good at running a business are two totally different skills. (This also applies to other types of businesses, too.... when I was in college I worked at a restaurant owned by a guy who'd had a mid-life crisis and decided that since he loved to cook pizza he'd start a pizza restaurant.... his pizza was great, but he'd forget to pay us, forget to order ingredients, all kinds of problems all the time. He did terribly and sold the place within 2 years.)


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## DiveInArts222 (Aug 8, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> There could be a million reasons for it.  A good business man or a bad business man could be a poor teacher, or could be a good teacher.  Maybe he just decided to retire, or got tired of it and wanted to do something else.  Trying to make a living as a martial arts instructor can be very difficult.  Lots of schools close after giving it a good run.  So it’s hard to say, it does not automatically mean something bad.



I agree, I guess these things just happen sometimes and the good instructors out there can't do anything about it, which is unfortunate.



Ryan_ said:


> Most start up businesses (which martial art schools usually are) fail.
> The businesses which don't fail usually take 3 years or so to break even. (May be different when exclusively referring to martial arts)
> There's several reasons a place may shut down but I would note I'm not familiar with this place so this is just a general list:
> Not making profit (therefore it is not sustainable and forced to shut down)
> ...



This all makes sense, but what about the places that really don't seem that good, like full of all these promotions, programs, claims of teaching FBI agents, S.W.A.T members, and SEALS with a lot of gimmicks, especially with all the fake demos they perform. If a lot of their claims are fake then how do they stay in business?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 8, 2018)

DiveInArts222 said:


> This all makes sense, but what about the places that really don't seem that good, like full of all these promotions, programs, claims of teaching FBI agents, S.W.A.T members, and SEALS with a lot of gimmicks, especially with all the fake demos they perform. If a lot of their claims are fake then how do they stay in business?



People don't bother checking those claims out, or even know how to. How would you know whether or not i train new marines?


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## DiveInArts222 (Aug 8, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> People don't bother checking those claims out, or even know how to. How would you know whether or not i train new marines?



Wouldn't you see them at the dojo maybe? I mean if they make those claims and it's written on their sites and they have many people that go to them to train, even promoted signatures like hall of fame from teaching kids at high schools, demos to police departments and so forth. That's a lot for student members to join and just assume it's true. There must be some real claims since they continue to go and probably spread the word to others to join. Wouldn't people in FBI agencies and law enforce departments know about ti and if the claims are fake call out on it? It's so confusing to me how someone can write down on paper and post it that they did all this type of training for many years and no one call them out on it. It must mean that they are legit afterall.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 8, 2018)

Someone’s students literally could be anybody.  They could have marines, or FBI or SWAT members who are students.  But they could be training on their own time, and not as an agency sanctioned activity.  So it does not actually mean anything “official”.

I’ve seen people make similar claims about academics.  They talk about the doctors and lawyers and university researchers and professors who are their students.  Like somehow that proves an intellectual superiority in what they do and how they train.

Nonsense.  Just about any school anywhere can have some share of such highly educated people.


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## Ryan_ (Aug 8, 2018)

DiveInArts222 said:


> I agree, I guess these things just happen sometimes and the good instructors out there can't do anything about it, which is unfortunate.
> 
> 
> 
> This all makes sense, but what about the places that really don't seem that good, like full of all these promotions, programs, claims of teaching FBI agents, S.W.A.T members, and SEALS with a lot of gimmicks, especially with all the fake demos they perform. If a lot of their claims are fake then how do they stay in business?



Personal opinion for my answer here: I would say that's due to a lack of regulations regarding dojo's. And since you're describing a typical mcdojo, many of these places charge for promotion grading, belts, gis more than necessary and have "Black belt in just X months" schemes. It's an unforgettable circumstance where people forget what is too good to be true probably isn't true.
Some of them can potentially be reported for false advertisement, but only the parts of the advertisement that can be proven.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 11, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> Personal opinion for my answer here: I would say that's due to a lack of regulations regarding dojo's. And since you're describing a typical mcdojo, many of these places charge for promotion grading, belts, gis more than necessary and have "Black belt in just X months" schemes. It's an unforgettable circumstance where people forget what is too good to be true probably isn't true.
> Some of them can potentially be reported for false advertisement, but only the parts of the advertisement that can be proven.


Well, I think it is pretty difficult to nail down a definition of a McDojo that everyone will agree on.  

As far as false advertising goes, I’m not sure there is a place to “report” it for the most part, aside from the Better Business Bureau, which is a voluntary association and does not carry any weight of law.

For some things there are regulations, and violations can be acted upon.  For example, if you market a dietary supplement and advertise claims of medical benefits that have not been verified and cleared by the FDA, that can get you into trouble.

But if I make claims that you think are suspicious, you can’t just call the police and get me to change my claims.  Someone with a vested interest in the claims would need to get involved, possibly have their attorney write a “cease and desist” letter, and then file a law suit if I don’t change my claims.

For example:  if I claim that I was hired by the San Francisco Police department to teach combatives to their officers, and that has not happened, then the SFPD would be the ones to take action.  However, if I simply claim to have taught members of the SFPD, and I did in fact have one single officer take one class with me on his own time, then my claim is technically valid, even if somewhat misleading.  So there is a lot more gray area there and there may not be much anyone can do to stop me.


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## Ryan_ (Aug 11, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> As far as false advertising goes, I’m not sure there is a place to “report” it for the most part, aside from the Better Business Bureau, which is a voluntary association and does not carry any weight of law.
> 
> .


Woops, forgot to mention I'm in the UK - In which places can be reported to the advertising standards agency, which does have the ability to make companies remove/adapt advertisements.

Really unsure how it would apply in other countries.


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## JR 137 (Aug 12, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I think it is pretty difficult to nail down a definition of a McDojo that everyone will agree on.
> 
> As far as false advertising goes, I’m not sure there is a place to “report” it for the most part, aside from the Better Business Bureau, which is a voluntary association and does not carry any weight of law.
> 
> ...


The FDA doesn’t regulate supplements nor their manufacturers’ claim.  Even the commercials have the disclaimer that their results haven’t been evaluated by the FDA. 

_Dietary Supplements can be beneficial to your health — but taking supplements can also involve health risks. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not have the authority to review dietary supplement products for safety and effectiveness before they are marketed._
_Dietary Supplements: What You Need to Know_


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## Flying Crane (Aug 12, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> The FDA doesn’t regulate supplements nor their manufacturers’ claim.  Even the commercials have the disclaimer that their results haven’t been evaluated by the FDA.
> 
> _Dietary Supplements can be beneficial to your health — but taking supplements can also involve health risks. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not have the authority to review dietary supplement products for safety and effectiveness before they are marketed.
> Dietary Supplements: What You Need to Know_


Yeah they always make that disclaimer.  I know there is some line that cannot be crossed tho.  At some point people can get in trouble if they make medical claims, but where the line is I am not sure.


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## dvcochran (Aug 12, 2018)

DiveInArts222 said:


> When that happens does it mean those are bad schools? I heard from someone it was a good place but that's one opinion. I'm not sure if it's true or not cause the place is non existence now cause I thought it was still around.
> 
> Is there a difference between a good businessman and good instructor?
> 
> If an instructor is real good but doesn't teach anymore mean that they really weren't that good?


I believe someone can be really good at their MA and be a terrible instructor/teacher. You can also be a great teacher and only average at your MA. You can be a bad businessman in any kind of business.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 12, 2018)

DiveInArts222 said:


> This all makes sense, but what about the places that really don't seem that good, like full of all these promotions, programs, claims of teaching FBI agents, S.W.A.T members, and SEALS with a lot of gimmicks, especially with all the fake demos they perform. If a lot of their claims are fake then how do they stay in business?


That kind of marketing works with a lot of the general public. That there are folks making those claims, makes the modest assertions of an honest school pretty boring.


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## now disabled (Aug 13, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> Woops, forgot to mention I'm in the UK - In which places can be reported to the advertising standards agency, which does have the ability to make companies remove/adapt advertisements.
> 
> Really unsure how it would apply in other countries.




Trading Standards are the ones with the real teeth over here. 

The real issue as others have said is proving it ... 

I have seen on websites of the corporate trainers that they train US military and other oversees Military personnel, now first of It is highly unlikely unless...............the guys that are teaching or on the or part of the circuit (if you dunno what that is lol it means they have the inside track due to past endeavours) then it is very possible for them to have done what they say as there is a hell of a lot of transatlantic co=operation that goes on that no one ever hears about and a great many things these days are done by "civvy contractors " ie come in done the training or whatever then leave, 

That said just beware of what the claims are if they are part of the circuit then even mentioning that you should get a reaction lol and if you can read body lang a bit it not hard to tell if they telling porkies lol............and it is worth noting that the biggest regiment in the entire world or universe is the regiment lol ....not lol (your in the UK so you should I assume know who I am referring to


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## Ryan_ (Aug 13, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Trading Standards are the ones with the real teeth over here.
> 
> The real issue as others have said is proving it ...
> 
> ...


While trading standards may have the "real teeth", the ASA do have the delegated ability to force people to remove adverts.

If you can prove it, or prove an advert is misleading. Eg. "We have trained members of the swat team" who have trained one lesson probably would be viewed as misleading then it's still potentially a violation of the ASA standards.

Proving something is not something is a lot harder usually than proving it is the thing they say. However, I think we're going quite off topic in this thread now which was originally about Dragons Pride


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> While trading standards may have the "real teeth", the ASA do have the delegated ability to force people to remove adverts.
> 
> If you can prove it, or prove an advert is misleading. Eg. "We have trained members of the swat team" who have trained one lesson probably would be viewed as misleading then it's still potentially a violation of the ASA standards.
> 
> Proving something is not something is a lot harder usually than proving it is the thing they say. However, I think we're going quite off topic in this thread now which was originally about Dragons Pride


Off-topic? On Martial Talk??? Never!


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## dvcochran (Aug 13, 2018)

DiveInArts222 said:


> I agree, I guess these things just happen sometimes and the good instructors out there can't do anything about it, which is unfortunate.
> 
> 
> 
> This all makes sense, but what about the places that really don't seem that good, like full of all these promotions, programs, claims of teaching FBI agents, S.W.A.T members, and SEALS with a lot of gimmicks, especially with all the fake demos they perform. If a lot of their claims are fake then how do they stay in business?


You would think a modest amount of due diligence would be in order especially if it is you kid you are sending to class. Sadly I occasionally still have someone ask me about my "secret training" or who have I taught. It really tells you a lot about people sometimes. Sometimes it is just from a lack of choices.


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## JR 137 (Aug 14, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Sometimes it is just from a lack of choices.


Or a lack of actually thinking about what they’ve been told and are repeating.

I wonder why some people still think black belts have to register with the police.  Maybe pedophiles who happen to be black belts, but not others 

People hear things a few ty, don’t put an ounce of thought into it, then repeat it.


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## Ryan_ (Aug 14, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Or a lack of actually thinking about what they’ve been told and are repeating.
> 
> I wonder why some people still think black belts have to register with the police.  Maybe pedophiles who happen to be black belts, but not others
> 
> People hear things a few ty, don’t put an ounce of thought into it, then repeat it.


Obviously you need to register for an open carry license as your fists are now legally classed as weapons


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## JR 137 (Aug 14, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> Obviously you need to register for an open carry license as your fists are now legally classed as weapons


My guns aren’t just for show


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## WaterGal (Aug 14, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah they always make that disclaimer.  I know there is some line that cannot be crossed tho.  At some point people can get in trouble if they make medical claims, but where the line is I am not sure.



I _think_ the line is, they can make vague claims like "this product promotes heart health", but they can't claim it will cure a specific disease ("this product will cure your heart disease").


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## DiveInArts222 (Aug 21, 2018)

Thanks guys I agree with everything you say. This is why it's good that I know more about the dojo that I'm joining before I officially sign up.

Does anyone know any schools affiliated or similar to the Dragons pride dojo?


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