# How can one obtain formlessness??



## StormShadow

I've have been thinking about this question and what Master Lee actually meant.  Formlessness: every move has an efficient path to it. Proper kicking form, proper punching form ect... I know some arts such as wing chun is not flashy and seeks the most effective path while using the practice of "forms" to build the body's muscle memory on performing different techniques. These techniques can be mixed and matched depending on the fight, completely up to the fighter and dictated by the fight.  Even wing chun has a sense of "formlessness" in my opinion. In all, when we practice techniques, they all have some sort of "form" to them. I think a deeper understanding of what being formless really means is needed. After all, Master bruce did not say be style-less, he specifically mentioned being formless. I am attempting to increase my understanding in getting to the essence of what he really meant.

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## K-man

Obviously we will never know exactly what was meant but I suspect it is the same in the Japanese arts. There is probably a similar term in Chinese that I am unaware of, but the Japanese use the word 'Shuhari'. It is their method of transmitting knowledge in many fields such as calligraphy, ikebana (flower arranging), origami etc. It also applies to the martial arts.

At the beginner stage you learn the technique exactly as it is taught. While you are learning that technique your mind is totally locked onto what you are doing. That is the 'Shu' stage. In Japanese martial arts we would call it 'Kihon' or basic. Many practitioners never get beyond that stage as the fixate on performing flawless technique. You see it in competition kata. Once you have learned the technique you need to know how to make the technique work for you. That may mean adapting it to take into account your own body structure, your age etc. At that time an outsider watching you could still recognise the technique but they would notice the difference. They might even think that the technique was a bit 'sloppy' but that is not necessarily so. What I have described is the 'Ha' stage. One point sparring is possibly an example of this.

The last stage is the most interesting. I have personally only come across one master who actually demonstrates at this level but you do see it in some of the old video of Morihei Ueshiba (Aikido) and, to some extent, in more recent times Mikhail Ryabko (Systema) and Emin Boztepe (Wing Tsun) and I am sure there are many others. They perform actions that are unrecognisable as the original technique but the attack is the same and the end result is the same. In between, the technique is 'formless'. That is the 'Ri' stage of training and I suspect that is similar to what Bruce Lee was describing. Basically at that stage of training you are not thinking but purely acting.  In Japanese terminology it is the state of 'mushin', or mind of no mind. When you read accounts of the great Japanese swordsmen such as Miyamoto Musashi, it is the same principle.  :asian:


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## simplicity

> How can one obtain formlessness??



The only way is train "IT" working very hard, over and over again... Then when you think you're done, work "IT" even more and more again....  Hope you get the point I'm making...


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## Xue Sheng

Train a thing so much you no longer think about it, no thought no form just action. 

To use a Bruce Lee quote, 





> Dont think, do.




And another Bruce Lee Quote I think is applicable to this



> Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.


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## simplicity

Actually it just not doing it to you no longer have to think about... This isn't what I'm taking about here... You must go beyond that... There is more to "IT" than that.... Nero response comes to mind here...


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## Xue Sheng

simplicity said:


> Actually it just not doing it to you no longer have to think about... This isn't what I'm taking about here... You must go beyond that... There is more to "IT" than that.... Nero response comes to mind here...




My apologies, I should have quoted StromShadow, I was not commenting on your post, I was responding to his question :asian:


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## simplicity

All good man, no need to apologies... I'm just trying help out... Where I'm coming from is... When we all were little it just took one time to touch something hot, we got burned because we didn't move fast enough... Now being older, when we touch something hot we have moved before ever knowing "IT" just happen, not even getting burned... This is JKD mindset one has to have in any "moment" of time... This is what I teach to my friends/students...


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## grumpywolfman

StormShadow said:


> I've have been thinking about this question and what Master Lee actually meant.  Formlessness: every move has an efficient path to it. Proper kicking form, proper punching form ect... I know some arts such as wing chun is not flashy and seeks the most effective path while using the practice of "forms" to build the body's muscle memory on performing different techniques. These techniques can be mixed and matched depending on the fight, completely up to the fighter and dictated by the fight.  Even wing chun has a sense of "formlessness" in my opinion. In all, when we practice techniques, they all have some sort of "form" to them. I think a deeper understanding of what being formless really means is needed. After all, Master bruce did not say be style-less, he specifically mentioned being formless. I am attempting to increase my understanding in getting to the essence of what he really meant.  Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2




Adaptability. There are different ranges of physical combat - learn about the dominant styles that prevail in those ranges; study them absorb what is useful to you, then discard the rest. As you learn to adapt to your opponent, his intentions, and the given environment, you become formless like water that fills the container its placed within  :asian:


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## martial sparrer

formlessness is adaptability, unpredictability, and empty mind where you do not think of your moves but do them with victory and zero hesitation....like the untouchable martial artist....like the master strategist....is this what I am hearing?  from what I read so far of lee's fighting methods....he tried to devise very devastating and painful moves....ones that seem to be harder to counter....tight moves....and effective, quick fight stopping moves....


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## Flying Crane

If you focus on a curriculum of techniques in your style, trying to get each technique, each combination, exactly correct, and that is what you focus on, then you will always have form.  

It is important to get your techniques exactly correct, and they are useful as techniques.  However, if you recognize your techniques as a vehicle used to teach you how to understand certain fundamental principles, then you can eventually move beyond the techniques and become formless.  You can use those fundamental principles on any movement, even if it's not a "proper" technique from your curriculum.  Even if it looks like just a spastic movement.  But when you've internalized the fundamental principles, then ANY movement you make can become a devastating technique if you apply those principles to that movement.


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## simplicity

Over the years I've always said to BLS that I hanged out with, "technique will one's azz killed".... (o_0)


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## martial sparrer

technique will get one's azz killed?..............I can see that!!              I think if you can use that technique....and remember your defense....if your in a self defense or fighting situation....you can hopefully be too much for your opponent......





simplicity said:


> Over the years I've always said to BLS that I hanged out with, "technique will one's azz killed".... (o_0)


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## James Kovacich

Formlessness is the highest level of techniques.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## Boran

It's not formlessness. It's timing. Look at Nature, every thing has its time.


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## K-man

Boran said:


> It's not formlessness. It's timing. Look at Nature, every thing has its time.


Having its time and timing are totally different. Formlessness has nothing to do with timing really. The timing, if anything, is broken timing. Having the same timing as your opponent is how most interaction occurs and this usually results in a physical clash. If you take Aikido's Iriminage, as it is taught and how you normally see it performed, the timing is the same and if it succeeds against resisting opposition it is physical. When it is performed 'formlessly' it can look, as Michael said above, spastic. It doesn't look like any recognisable technique, it doesn't rely on timing and your opponent goes to the ground. The mindless part is that you are not thinking about your opponent or the technique. It just happens.
In case you aren't familiar with the technique I am referring to, here is an example.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F3NmaYu2Kvc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=F3NmaYu2Kvc

Most of it is demonstrating the technical form, occasionally it is an advanced form and, if you look closely, several 'formless'. The attack with the jo, right at the end is formless and has nothing whatever to do with timing.



> I am finding that the longer I train in Aikido the more *I'm realizing that specific aikido techniques will eventually give way to a formlessness of movement. *And as I think on this it also seems to me that, perhaps, every martial art is working toward this end. Ultimately, what one master of one art understands will be essentially the same understanding of a master of a different art. So, I think masters (on the level of O-sensei) of various martial arts may come to resemble each other more than they will differ. I suspect that all streams do empty into the sea in the martial arts realm.
> 
> 
> This becomes particularly evident to me during randori training where *the principles contained in technique forms must often be applied outside the forms.* Rather than a clean, classic iriminage technique for instance, I must sometimes "adapt" this technique and rely more on the principles supporting it than the technique itself. (I'm sure many of you have experienced what I'm talking about). *What I have found is that the principles of aikido without the specific form are just as effective *in dealing successfully with my opponent.


This is a post from a member of the Aikiweb forum. The emphasis is mine. It really covers the discussion nicely and it ties in with my theory that at the absolute top of the mountain, all martial arts become the same. We are just climbing the same mountain along different ridges.
:asian:


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## Kung Fu Wang

When Bruce Lee said, "Formless", he didn't consider the nature of the grappling art at all.

When you apply a valid "hip throw", you have to use your

- one arm to wrap around your opponent's arm,
- one arm to wrap around your opponent's waist,
- right foot to be in front of his right foot,
- left foot to be in front of his left foot,
- hip to touch his belly.

You just can't perform your "hip throw" formless.


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## Takai

K-man said:


> This is a post from a member of the Aikiweb forum. The emphasis is mine. It really covers the discussion nicely and it ties in with my theory that at the absolute top of the mountain, all martial arts become the same. We are just climbing the same mountain along different ridges.
> :asian:



As my Sifu is apt to say,"The truth is still the truth, no matter where you find it."


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## seasoned

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When Bruce Lee said, "Formless", he didn't consider the nature of the grappling art at all.
> 
> When you apply a valid "hip throw", you have to use your
> 
> - one arm to wrap around your opponent's arm,
> - one arm to wrap around your opponent's waist,
> - right foot to be in front of his right foot,
> - left foot to be in front of his left foot,
> - hip to touch his belly.
> 
> You just can't perform your "hip throw" formless.



Formless is the mental aspect............


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## K-man

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When Bruce Lee said, "Formless", he didn't consider the nature of the grappling art at all.
> 
> When you apply a valid "hip throw", you have to use your
> 
> - one arm to wrap around your opponent's arm,
> - one arm to wrap around your opponent's waist,
> - right foot to be in front of his right foot,
> - left foot to be in front of his left foot,
> - hip to touch his belly.
> 
> You just can't perform your "hip throw" formless.





seasoned said:


> Formless is the mental aspect............


*KFW*, at the beginner level I agree with you. In karate we call that kihon or basic. I would suggest that in competition you might be able to perform it that way but I have my doubts. The movement of your opponent may not be just how you were anticipating, so you vary the basic technique slightly. You might position you feet slightly differently or the grab on the arm may be just a trap, whatever it takes to make it work. This is what normally happens in competition with people who have a pretty good understanding of what is happening. *Seasoned *is at the next level. At that stage you know you are performing a hip throw and the opponent goes flying and everyone says "what happened there"? Most people underestimate the mental aspect because so few get to see it, let alone train it. That's the level of 'formless'.
:asian:


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## Xue Sheng

Formlessness.... do it naturally....it is part of you and from you and no longer something external to you...


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## K-man

Xue Sheng said:


> Formlessness.... do it naturally....it is part of you and from you and no longer something external to you...


Exactly ... 
:asian:


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## Kung Fu Wang

If formless means "no-mind", it's not that easy to be able to achieve "formless" level. You have to be good on everything. You also have to be good on both sides. 

For example, if your right hook punch has 80% knock down power while your left hook punch only has 40% knock down punch, when a left hook punch opportunity has presented to you, you may not be able to take full advantage on it. You may want to lead your opponent and try to force him to give you a right hook punch opportunity. When you are doing that, you are no longer "formless".

A groin kick followed by a face punch is not "formless". You try to lead your opponent into an area that you are most familiar with.

When you date your girl, you

- let her to lead you to wherever that she wants to go, that's formless. 
- lead her to Taco Bell and Dollar store, that's not "formless".

To me, formless means that you have no plan and forced by your environment. That's not good.


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## K-man

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If formless means "no-mind", it's not that easy to be able to achieve "formless" level. You have to be good on everything. You also have to be good on both sides.
> 
> For example, if your right hook punch has 80% knock down power while your left hook punch only has 40% knock down punch, when a left hook punch opportunity has presented to you, you may not be able to take full advantage on it. You may want to lead your opponent and try to force him to give you a right hook punch opportunity. When you are doing that, you are no longer "formless".
> 
> A groin kick followed by a face punch is not "formless". You try to lead your opponent into an area that you are most familiar with.
> 
> When you date your girl, you
> 
> - let her to lead you to wherever that she wants to go, that's formless.
> - lead her to Taco Bell and Dollar store, that's not "formless".
> 
> To me, formless means that you have no plan and forced by your environment. That's not good.


We were actually discussing this at training this morning. Obviously 'formless' does not apply until you are not only 'good' at everything but actually better than 'very good'. I am talking about the top level of practice. 

'Formless' does not mean 'brainless'. You're not entering the conflict with no idea. You are entering with the _intent_ to overcome your opponent. How you will do that is almost irrelevant. As you enter what you do depends on what your opponent does but in my practice would be highly unlikely to include a punch. In aikido it is referred to as 'entering with irimi, hitting with kokyu'.

So you are right in that it would not be entering with a kick and a punch. A punch to me is counter intuitive when discussing formless.

Our discussion this morning actually went deeper than martial art where we were discussing the same concept of 'formless' as it applies to Sumi-e. 

Interesting discussion.
:asian:


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## Dinkydoo

Xue Sheng said:


> Formlessness.... do it naturally....it is part of you and from you and no longer something external to you...



Correct me if i'm wrong: In Nothern Mantis we try to "empty ourselves" immediately prior to starting freestyle chi sau exercises. I think it is a similar concept - we're not thinking, we're doing.


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## Kung Fu Wang

If your opponent is a 

- striker, you want him to play your grappling game.
- grappler, you want him to play your striking game.

Is that against the "formless"?

When you try to collect that information, you are already violate the "formless". When you decide to attack your opponent with "single leg" instead of a "jab, cross combo" on his face, you are also violate the "formless".


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## K-man

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponent is a
> 
> - striker, you want him to play your grappling game.
> - grappler, you want him to play your striking game.
> 
> Is that against the "formless"?
> 
> When you try to collect that information, you are already violate the "formless". When you decide to attack your opponent with "single leg" instead of a "jab, cross combo" on his face, you are also violate the "formless".


You are quite right of course. But with 'formless' it doesn't matter what you do. You just react appropriately.
:asian:


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## simplicity

Are we talking about other arts? or  Are we talking about Jeet Kune Do?


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## yak sao

In Wing Tsun, you start out learning the "proper" way to respond to a given attack. Then through hours and hours of chi sau, lat sau and forms training, you respond to the forces placed upon your structure without thinking.
 Your body learns to naturally seek the path of proper balance and structure without having to physically place it there or to have your mind micro manage what your body needs to do.


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## Xue Sheng

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If formless means "no-mind", it's not that easy to be able to achieve "formless" level. You have to be good on everything. You also have to be good on both sides.
> 
> For example, if your right hook punch has 80% knock down power while your left hook punch only has 40% knock down punch, when a left hook punch opportunity has presented to you, you may not be able to take full advantage on it. You may want to lead your opponent and try to force him to give you a right hook punch opportunity. When you are doing that, you are no longer "formless".
> 
> A groin kick followed by a face punch is not "formless". You try to lead your opponent into an area that you are most familiar with.
> 
> When you date your girl, you
> 
> - let her to lead you to wherever that she wants to go, that's formless.
> - lead her to Taco Bell and Dollar store, that's not "formless".
> 
> To me, formless means that you have no plan and forced by your environment. That's not good.



This is just my opinion, but I do not believe formlessness to be the same as mushin

Formlessness....be like water
Mushin.... become free from thoughts of anger, fear, or ego during combat or everyday life.


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## grumpywolfman

_"If you always put a limit on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them."_  ~ Bruce Lee


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## Dinkydoo

grumpywolfman said:


> _"If you always put a limit on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them."_  ~ Bruce Lee



One of my favourite Bruce Lee quotes.


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## Kung Fu Wang

simplicity said:


> Are we talking about other arts? or  Are we talking about Jeet Kune Do?



When you ask this question, you already have "style boundary" in mind. I don't think that was what Bruce Lee wanted.


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## K-man

Xue Sheng said:


> This is just my opinion, but I do not believe formlessness to be the same as mushin
> 
> Formlessness....be like water
> Mushin.... become free from thoughts of anger, fear, or ego during combat or everyday life.


Mushin and 'formless' are totally different concepts. Formless almost requires a state of mushin. These concepts apply across all styles.
:asian:


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## simplicity

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you ask this question, you already have "style boundary" in mind. I don't think that was what Bruce Lee wanted.




Since you bring up Bruce Lee and what he wanted, here you go.... This was given to one of my teachers: Jerry Poteet:

*X is Jeet Kune Do
Y is the style you will represent

To represent and teach Y one
should drill its members according
to the preaching of Y.

This is the same with anyone
who is qualified and has been
approved To represent X.

To justify by interfusing X and Y
is basically the denying of
Y~~~~~~~~~ but still calling it Y.

A man, as you put it, is one
who is noble to stick to the
road he has chosen.

A garden of rose will yield
Rose.  And a garden of violets
will yield violets.

Best Wishes


1 in 10,000 will get this as to what he really was talking about*


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## Kung Fu Wang

*Formlessness....be like water*

Here is my concern. When there is a gap, the water will go into it. The water has no choice but we human being do have that choice. In combat, when there is an opening, we can decide whether we want to move in or not. If the opening looks like a trap, even the opening is there, we may just ignore it. This is why to be like water may not always be the smartest thing to do.

To me, combat is a chess game. It requires "plan".

*X is ..., Y is ...*

I prefer to look at this from a different angle. 

*This is what I want. Where can I get it?*


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## Dinkydoo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> *Formlessness....be like water*
> 
> Here is my concern. When there is a gap, the water will go into it. The water has no choice but we human being do have that choice. In combat, when there is an opening, we can decide whether we want to move in or not. If the opening looks like a trap, even the opening is there, we may just ignore it. This is why to be like water may not always be the smartest thing to do.
> 
> To me, combat is a chess game. It requires "plan".
> 
> *X is ..., Y is ...*
> 
> I prefer to look at this from a different angle.
> 
> *This is what I want. Where can I get it?*



I think you're taking the "be like water" quote too literally. It's about adapting to any given situation (I think) rather than forcing yourself to work only within the confides of another structure.


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## simplicity

"I don't c"I don't care who you trained with or how long, even what art you claim... Show me what you can do"... JM

"Jeet Kune Do is simply simple in the moment of 
opportunity of what is, a problem solving art" JFM

are who you trained with or how long, even what art you claim... Show me what you can do"... JM

"Jeet Kune Do is simply simple in the moment of 
opportunity of what is, a problem solving art" JFM


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## simplicity

If anyone is interested... If you come to or are already in Southeast Michigan, you are welcome to taste my cup of java... 


As I subcribe to this: "I don't care who you trained with or how long, even what art you claim... Show me what you can do"... JM
"
I also believe Jeet Kune Do to be this : "Jeet Kune Do is simply simple in the moment of 
opportunity of what is, a problem solving art"  JFM


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