# diferences



## Manny (Aug 25, 2009)

I want to know the diferences amoung the kenpo Mr.Mitose and Mr.Chow and Mr.Parker are.

Also the diferenses beetwen American kenpo and Chinese kenpo.

Manny


----------



## Twin Fist (Aug 25, 2009)

lemme see if i can make this simple for you

Mitose:
basic japanese karate with some jui-jitsu, no flow, very dependant on the "one punch kill" non sense. Kenpo in name only.

Chow:
added circular movements, added flow, Chows kenpo was, by todays standards VERY hard kenpo, but it still had flow.

Parker:
added still more flow, removed the jui-jitsu, and got all wordy describing it. came up with tons of forms and sets and terms that hadnt existed before. made kenpo very, VERY cerebral.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 25, 2009)

I would like to add under the Chow and Parker section: 

Chow - He learned &#27946;&#23478;: Hongjia (Hung Gar) from his father, this is where the circular methodology was added from.   Kara-Ho was in essence the blending of Mitoses' Kenpo Jiujitsu with Hongjia.  Honjia while circular is a very "hard" form of gongfu and this is why Parker's system looked "soft" by comparison.

Parker - Blended in &#34081;&#26446;&#20315; Cai Li Fo (Choy Li Fut) which gave the art more flow and even more circular techniques and relaxed power.  He also added some of the Shaolin 5 Animals that were not present already, while it is debatable where those came from, I suspect it was the Cai Li Fo.

The difference between American Kenpo and Chinese Kenpo....  They are numerous but I will focus on the mostly superficial

This comes through lineage.  For example Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo Karate evolved Chow's art by blending in Aikido principles and techniques, Korean Kicking (while practiced high in some forms, practically used low and mid level) all from GM Kuoha's training.  You would have to ask him more about it to know a full list of everything he's blended.  I suspect that the list is far longer than I have given, but  those where the two biggest changes IMHO.

Other student's of Chow did similar things, and it is the ones who studied (for the most part) under him and do not have Parker in their linage generally identify as Chinese Kenpoka.   Those who trace their lineage through Parker identify mostly as American Kenpoka


----------



## Milt G. (Aug 26, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> I would like to add under the Chow and Parker section:
> 
> Chow - He learned &#27946;&#23478;: Hongjia (Hung Gar) from his father, this is where the circular methodology was added from. Kara-Ho was in essence the blending of Mitoses' Kenpo Jiujitsu with Hongjia. Honjia while circular is a very "hard" form of gongfu and this is why Parker's system looked "soft" by comparison.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,
Great information...!

I will add that the Tracy's system of Kenpo is considered by many to be "Chinese Kenpo".  They kept all of the Chinese influence, and forms of the early days with Jimmy Woo.  There remains many Chinese forms in the system today, including the "Bookset". (Panther Set)  

Ed Parker had removed most of Woo's contributions to the art when they had a "falling out" in the early 1960's.  I am beginning to think the terms "falling out" and "Kenpo" are related to each other...   Sad, really. 

Thank you,
Milt G.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> Great information...!
> 
> I will add that the Tracy's system of Kenpo is considered by many to be "Chinese Kenpo". They kept all of the Chinese influence, and forms of the early days with Jimmy Woo. There remains many Chinese forms in the system today, including the "Bookset". (Panther Set)
> ...


 
There are also Chinese sets in Tracys that did not come from Mr. Woo.  As is true with many of the early kenpo people, the Tracys had other influences and teachers along the way as well.  I think they basically took the approach that if you learn something new that you can bring into the system and make it better, then do so.  But don't take something out of the system or you might risk dropping something that is worth while.  I've heard the same sentiment expressed among some Shaolin proponents as well.  Seems like some of the Longfist forms have versions taught in certain schools that are quite long compared to other schools teaching the same forms.  I guess the leaders in some lineages kept adding things over several generations that other lineages did not, and their version of some of these forms is now a lot longer than others.

I recently had the chance to read a copy of Mr. Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate, that contained the "Book Set".  What was outlined in the book is actually the Two-Man Set, and not Panther.  I always understood that the reference to the name "Book Set" was due to the inclusion in the publication.  That would mean that Two-Man Set is the Book Set, and not Panther.  However, I've seen Panther also referred to as "Book Set".  Anyone got any comments to clarify that point?


----------



## clfsean (Aug 26, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Parker - Blended in &#34081;&#26446;&#20315; Cai Li Fo (Choy Li Fut) which gave the art more flow and even more circular techniques and relaxed power.  He also added some of the Shaolin 5 Animals that were not present already, while it is debatable where those came from, I suspect it was the Cai Li Fo.



Look to AY Wong for the Five Animals. The CLF he was exposed to from Lau Bun's CLF isn't "that" Five Animal intensive. They're (5 Animals) there, but not a large overriding & overtly obvious influence as other CLF branches.


----------



## mwd0818 (Aug 26, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> There are also Chinese sets in Tracys that did not come from Mr. Woo.  As is true with many of the early kenpo people, the Tracys had other influences and teachers along the way as well.  I think they basically took the approach that if you learn something new that you can bring into the system and make it better, then do so.  But don't take something out of the system or you might risk dropping something that is worth while.  I've heard the same sentiment expressed among some Shaolin proponents as well.  Seems like some of the Longfist forms have versions taught in certain schools that are quite long compared to other schools teaching the same forms.  I guess the leaders in some lineages kept adding things over several generations that other lineages did not, and their version of some of these forms is now a lot longer than others.
> 
> I recently had the chance to read a copy of Mr. Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate, that contained the "Book Set".  What was outlined in the book is actually the Two-Man Set, and not Panther.  I always understood that the reference to the name "Book Set" was due to the inclusion in the publication.  That would mean that Two-Man Set is the Book Set, and not Panther.  However, I've seen Panther also referred to as "Book Set".  Anyone got any comments to clarify that point?



I, too, have heard the Two-Man Set referred to as the Book Set.  All my research points to this being someone's missed intepretation in that the Two-Man Set REPLACED the Book Set (Panther) in many Kenpo schools.  I have no concrete evidence of it that I can find for this post, but it is what I have heard.

In either case, I have both and the two have little to do with each other.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> I, too, have heard the Two-Man Set referred to as the Book Set. All my research points to this being someone's missed intepretation in that the Two-Man Set REPLACED the Book Set (Panther) in many Kenpo schools. I have no concrete evidence of it that I can find for this post, but it is what I have heard.
> 
> In either case, I have both and the two have little to do with each other.


 
Maybe the original intention was to publish Panther in the book, and it took the name Book Set, and the name stuck.  But then prior to publication, the decision was made to actually publish Two-Man Set instead.


----------



## Milt G. (Aug 26, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> There are also Chinese sets in Tracys that did not come from Mr. Woo. As is true with many of the early kenpo people, the Tracys had other influences and teachers along the way as well. I think they basically took the approach that if you learn something new that you can bring into the system and make it better, then do so. But don't take something out of the system or you might risk dropping something that is worth while. I've heard the same sentiment expressed among some Shaolin proponents as well. Seems like some of the Longfist forms have versions taught in certain schools that are quite long compared to other schools teaching the same forms. I guess the leaders in some lineages kept adding things over several generations that other lineages did not, and their version of some of these forms is now a lot longer than others.
> 
> I recently had the chance to read a copy of Mr. Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate, that contained the "Book Set". What was outlined in the book is actually the Two-Man Set, and not Panther. I always understood that the reference to the name "Book Set" was due to the inclusion in the publication. That would mean that Two-Man Set is the Book Set, and not Panther. However, I've seen Panther also referred to as "Book Set". Anyone got any comments to clarify that point?


 
Hello,
Legend has it that the actual "Bookset" was to be included in Parker's book "Secrets of Chinese Karate"...  That is why it has the nickname "Bookset".  Originally it was called the "Panther Set".  It was to be in the "Book".

When Ed Parker had the "falling out" with Jimmy Woo he replaced the "Bookset" with the Two Man Set.  Some call it the "Two Person Set", these days.  As that was the kata in the "book" some have nicknamed that kata, bookset, as well.  It is technically the Two Man Set, as taught currently.  

Oddly, only some of the American Kenpo groups teach the Two Man Set as regular curriculum.  Very few, if any, AK systems teach the Bookset these days.  Same with the "Mass Attack" kata.  Perhaps the Parker/Tracy, Ford/Chevy arguement?

Different strokes for different folks, is the order of the day. 
Thank you,
Milt G.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 26, 2009)

Another take on the influences on Parker's kenpo.

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6627

Manny, if you are confused about who did what when and who was really qualified to teach what, well you aren't the only one.  Most people can't really agree on where the art came from prior to about 1940.  

And just so you know "Chinese Kenpo" is an extremely generic term, one used by several different lineage groups, some in and others completely out of the Parker lineages, though most are derivitave of the Chow lineages.


----------



## mwd0818 (Aug 26, 2009)

I thought "Book Set" took it's name as it was actually learned from a book that was found that had pictures and a description detailing it.

Could be wrong here - my knowledge of American Kenpo history is rudimentary, especially since I started in EPAK after the passing of Mr. Parker, I defer to those who were there and around.


----------



## John Bishop (Aug 26, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> I thought "Book Set" took it's name as it was actually learned from a book that was found that had pictures and a description detailing it.



Actually, that story sounds more like what Jimmy H. Woo of Kung Fu San Soo claimed.  
Short version: As the story goes, he got a book from one of the Chinese temples that contained the techniques that he later taught as Kung Fu San Soo.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 26, 2009)

As for the Parker version of Kenpo I think what he left out was almost as important as what he chose to add.
Sean


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 26, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Look to AY Wong for the Five Animals. The CLF he was exposed to from Lau Bun's CLF isn't "that" Five Animal intensive. They're (5 Animals) there, but not a large overriding & overtly obvious influence as other CLF branches.



True, however, the tiger claw (&#34382;&#29226 and other and other tiger techniques (&#34382;&#25331 came from Chow's Hongjia (&#27946;&#23478 training is seen in just about every form of Kenpo I've ever seen.  The "Panther" is more than likely "Bao" (&#35961 which is leopard/panther and is see very predominately in every lineage of CLF I have seen, so it is more than reasonable that the "Panther" came from CLF.

The only other of the 5 animals that is present in American Kenpo is Crane(&#40548. I have only seen Crane in a very limited capacity in Kenpo though, nothing like in the CLF I learned, and you typically see it blended together with Tiger techniques. 

Snake (&#34503 and Dragon (&#40857 do not exist except for a few styles like Shaolin Kempo that have added it in (and I know very little about if the Tracy's have added any thing like that in), but, EPAK does not have those.  Kara-Ho does, but in limited capacity and I think that is due to GM Kuoha exchanging knowledge with Dwight Love, that is pure speculation on my part, but I know  they have a good relationship and that his daughter cross-trains with Dwight Love. Once again you'd have to ask him what all he's blended in. 

Anyway, my point is, since only 2 (Panther/Leopard and Crane) of the 5 animals were added to EPAK in addition to the Tiger that Chow taught. Because of this, the CLF addition did not have to be heavy in the 5 animals nor did the person leaning have to be very skilled with them to incorporate them effectively.  That is just my .5¢ on it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> I would like to add under the Chow and Parker section:
> 
> Chow - He learned &#27946;&#23478;: Hongjia (Hung Gar) from his father, this is where the circular methodology was added from. Kara-Ho was in essence the blending of Mitoses' Kenpo Jiujitsu with Hongjia. Honjia while circular is a very "hard" form of gongfu and this is why Parker's system looked "soft" by comparison.


 
I gotta ask about this.  I've seen it said that Chow was a hung ga man thru his father.  I've had limited exposure to hung ga, but I can sort of recognize its flavor and whatnot.  If this is true about Chow, then why does all the kenpo I've ever seen look, in my opinion, nothing like hung ga?

Neither Tracy kenpo, nor later lineages, that I've seen anything of, has anything like a hung ga flavor, not to mention hung ga forms with the exception of Tracys keeping an adopted and altered version of Tiger & Crane which I believe came into the system thru James Woo, prior to the Tracy's splitting away from Parker.

Tracys claim that they kept our material closer to what they learned from Mr. Parker, and did not follow the later changes that Mr. Parker made.  This would make Tracys method closer to what Mr. Parker learned from Mr. Chow.  And Tracys looks nothing like Hung Ga either.

So if Chow was really a hung ga man, why does none of the kenpo that has descended from him (at least as far as I have seen) look nothing like hung ga, and maintain essentially none of the hung ga curriculum with the one exception i've mentioned above?


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 26, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I gotta ask about this.  I've seen it said that Chow was a hung ga man thru his father.  I've had limited exposure to hung ga, but I can sort of recognize its flavor and whatnot.  If this is true about Chow, then why does all the kenpo I've ever seen look, in my opinion, nothing like hung ga?
> 
> Neither Tracy kenpo, nor later lineages, that I've seen anything of, has anything like a hung ga flavor, not to mention hung ga forms with the exception of Tracys keeping an adopted and altered version of Tiger & Crane which I believe came into the system thru James Woo, prior to the Tracy's splitting away from Parker.
> 
> ...



The Chow Techniques I learned through Kara-Ho have a distinct Hongjia feel, very low stances very strong movements if you watch the hongjia Tiger-Crane form you will see it especially in the intercepts, but then they also have a distinct "karate" feel in some of the blocks.  I cannot speak to what you have learned, but perhaps parker didn't teach some of Chow's original techniques because he didn't like them, or because he didn't see a need to "pay tribute" by keeping them in.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 26, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> True, however, the tiger claw (&#34382;&#29226 and other and other tiger techniques (&#34382;&#25331 came from Chow's Hongjia (&#27946;&#23478 training is seen in just about every form of Kenpo I've ever seen.  The "Panther" is more than likely "Bao" (&#35961 which is leopard/panther and is see very predominately in every lineage of CLF I have seen, so it is more than reasonable that the "Panther" came from CLF.
> 
> The only other of the 5 animals that is present in American Kenpo is Crane(&#40548. I have only seen Crane in a very limited capacity in Kenpo though, nothing like in the CLF I learned, and you typically see it blended together with Tiger techniques.
> 
> ...



Thinking further, some of the crane probably came from Chow's Hongjia training, but not the crane seen in SK styles, that is more in depth than what Hongjia does with crane.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> The Chow Techniques I learned through Kara-Ho have a distinct Hongjia feel, very low stances very strong movements if you watch the hongjia Tiger-Crane form you will see it especially in the intercepts, but then they also have a distinct "karate" feel in some of the blocks. I cannot speak to what you have learned, but perhaps parker didn't teach some of Chow's original techniques because he didn't like them, or because he didn't see a need to "pay tribute" by keeping them in.


 

well, I really haven't seen any kara-ho, so I guess it might be realized in that system, I just don't know anything about it.  But I've seen low stances and powerful movements in any of a number of Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan systems, so I don't find that alone to be convincing of a hung ga connection.

But you mention the possibility that Parker didn't teach some of Chow's original techniques, and that brings a couple more questions to mind: Does Kara-ho utilize a body of self defense techniques similar to what Tracys and other later lineages of Parker-derived kenpo use?  If so, do you believe these techniques come from Hung Ga?  I've never heard of this kind of thing in Hung Ga.  It's been my impression that hung ga, like many of the Chinese arts, is based on the practice and analyzation of forms for its fighting applications.  Typically most Chinese systems do not maintain a separate body of self defense combinations, in the same way that many Kenpo systems do.

It seems that if there is a hung ga connection, the most obvious way it would have manifest would be in the maintennance of the hung ga forms within the kenpo system, and that simply has not happened.  Otherwise, if kenpo has kept a certain distinguishable way of moving and generating power that was consistent with the hung ga methods, that could be another thing.  But typically these characteristics are developed thru the practice of the body of forms that make up the system's curriculum.  Without the practice of the forms, which are designed to develop the distinguishable characteristics that define the method, it is pretty difficult to coherently and comprehensively and thoroughly develop the methods and characteristics.  Certainly some of these things can be developed independently of the forms, in the format of practicing basic technques.  But the practice of the forms brings these elements together in a more complete way.  I've just never witnessed anything in kenpo that was ever linked to a specific hung ga method.

I guess I'm still looking for evidence of Hung Ga in kenpo.  I've just never seen anything convincing, but I acknowledge that I know nothing of kara-ho, and certainly don't know everything about all things kenpo.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Thinking further, some of the crane probably came from Chow's Hongjia training, but not the crane seen in SK styles, that is more in depth than what Hongjia does with crane.


 

What crane methods do you see in kara-ho, or in any other kenpo method that you are familiar with?

I do practice the Tibetan method, and within Tracys I have noticed certain techniques that are very similar to the Tibetan crane methods, which also influenced Hung Ga.  They have been developed a bit differently within kenpo, but there is a strong similarity with some (but not all) of the punching methods and how some of the combinations have been put together.  But they've gone in a bit of a different direction within kenpo, and you've gotta have a real knowledge of Tibetan crane in order to be able to even recognize them as crane techniques.  How this material entered the system is somethin that I do not know.  I have no idea if someone had actually studied Tibetan white crane and deliberately brought these methods in, or if they developed within kenpo independently or thru other influences.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 26, 2009)

Something y'all sorta blew past, so I'll mention it again cuz it bears repeating...the influences on Parker from Wongs system, through Lefiti. Mok, Mok ga, Mok Gar, whatever. One of Lefiti's few Instructor-level students, Carl Totten, wrote a very cool article on Tiny, including his pre-Wong history, with-Wong, and Post-Wong activity. He did his best to recount his own recollections of Tiny's stories, sought out the other handful of Tiny's top guys and pumped them for their recollections, and consolidated it into an article. Hasn't been published yet, so I'm not at liberty to replicate portions of it here, though Mr. Totten autographed a draft copy for me about a year ago.

Big piece stood out for me: His descriptions of Tiny's movements...quick, sharp, fast, rapid-fire open hand combinations with shuffling steps and stomps...you read the descriptions, and if you've ever been around Parker, you kinda go, "Oh. So that's where he [Mr. Parker] got it from." Big differences in how Mr. P. moved B.T. (Before Tiny) and A.T.; (After Tiny). Tiny was a senior student of GGM Wongs, school operator, Black Sash certified instuctor, etc. Old school learning the hard way (needing to be picked up and driven home because he was unable to self-ambulate or drive himself after the intensities), etc. 

The Crane influence is there more than appears; the paths of travel, loading weapons for impact while the involved appendage moves through the arc of the path, long-hand movements from the shoulder with smaller circles described at the hands and wrists in complementary or counter-orbits...these should all be present in good AK, but of aren't -- too far removed from the tree. Movement from the core, involving the stance changes and torso tensions -- should also be there, but just get dropped.

As for Twin Fists assertion that Mr. Parker took the jujutsu out of kenpo, I whole-heartedly disagree. Danzan-Ryu influences and Judo influences abound in the system. A good instructor will isolate these movements & waza from within a self-defense technique, and train them in isolation...the sukuinage in Locking Horns or Dance of Death; the Osoto-guruma hiding in Tripping Arrow, the katate-dori ich in Reversing Circles, etc. If they have not been accentuated, it's cuz the teacher doesn't know about them, or has never had them isolated for him. Mr. Parker was a -dan rank in judo under a judo legend in the islands, seperate from his kenpo training, and maintained close ties with DZR seniors in Hawaii and here on the mainland. Almost every technique in the 32 system up through green/brown has a jujutsu waza embedded in it. They also have opportunities to explore the space using CLF movement patterns, if one gets past the incliniation to assume Mr. Parker was pushing a linear art.

Finally, Mr. Parker called his kenpo "Chinese kenpo" for a while, as well, particularly while woking in the influences fom Woo, Wong, and Lefiti. Many who left his organization in the early years still refer to it by same.

Hope that helps,

Dave


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 26, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> well, I really haven't seen any kara-ho, so I guess it might be realized in that system, I just don't know anything about it.  But I've seen low stances and powerful movements in any of a number of Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan systems, so I don't find that alone to be convincing of a hung ga connection.
> 
> But you mention the possibility that Parker didn't teach some of Chow's original techniques, and that brings a couple more questions to mind: Does Kara-ho utilize a body of self defense techniques similar to what Tracys and other later lineages of Parker-derived kenpo use?  If so, do you believe these techniques come from Hung Ga?  I've never heard of this kind of thing in Hung Ga.  It's been my impression that hung ga, like many of the Chinese arts, is based on the practice and analyzation of forms for its fighting applications.  Typically most Chinese systems do not maintain a separate body of self defense combinations, in the same way that many Kenpo systems do.
> 
> ...



Watch the Tiger-Crane form. This form reminds me a lot of the Chow techniques.  In fact, I see many movements in there that found themselves into the techs.

You're absolutely right that most Chinese systems don't have preset defensive manuvers and use the forms to teach the techs.  Chow never really taught preset techniques until later in his teaching.  He extrapolated from the forms and taught mostly from them for SD techs.  

I'm pretty sure that GM Kuoha is responsible for the creation of all the forms that currently exist in the system because of how much he has introduced so the forms needed to reflect that.  He also created an amazing amount of preset techniques that utilize these as well.  However, he has kept a series of techniques that Chow created to pay tribute and IMHO teach students where Kara-Ho started so they can see where it is going. Off topic, I have a feeling that his daughter Ka'imi will add some interesting things into the mix too.

As has been brought up, AK utilizes "splashing hands" and derives a lot of power from there and from the Choy Li Fut principles in circular and soft power.  I feel that EPAK has most likely abandoned any hongjia roots in favor of other methods that appealed more to Parker.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 26, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> What crane methods do you see in kara-ho, or in any other kenpo method that you are familiar with?



Quite frankly, I see a lot,  I also unfortunately see a lot not done well too, but that is from studying Crane with my Choy Li Fut training. I have never seen the underlying principles of the five animals taught in any kenpo class, just the movements, and this is why I think some of the (&#30332;&#21185 is lost. While it is unfortunate IMHO it really doesn't matter a whole lot either because kenpo is not a 5 animal system.  For example, Kara-Ho now utilizes the Aikido (&#21512;&#27668;&#36947 principles of qi ( pronounced ki in japanese) to derive power in strikes.  EPAK utilizes "splashing hands" and CLF principles for "curving strikes"



Flying Crane said:


> I do practice the Tibetan method, and within Tracys I have noticed certain techniques that are very similar to the Tibetan crane methods, which also influenced Hung Ga.  They have been developed a bit differently within kenpo, but there is a strong similarity with some (but not all) of the punching methods and how some of the combinations have been put together.  But they've gone in a bit of a different direction within kenpo, and you've gotta have a real knowledge of Tibetan crane in order to be able to even recognize them as crane techniques.  How this material entered the system is somethin that I do not know.  I have no idea if someone had actually studied Tibetan white crane and deliberately brought these methods in, or if they developed within kenpo independently or thru other influences.



Ultimately I think that it is not readily apparent in everything Kara-ho does, not anymore.  But there are moments where I step back and go, "Wow!  I see it there!"  But that is what happens when you blend so many things together.  When Kara-Ho used to be Kenpo-Jujitsu and Hongjia Blended, it is now blended with Aikido, Korean Karate, and probably a lot more.  That means a lot of the Hongjai gets modified or thrown out to stay in line with the newer principles being introduced.  As I said, I think the Crane came to Kenpo through the Hongjai, but there is also a legend out there saying that White Crane is the major influence for Karate... so who knows, If you believe that it could have entered Kenpo through Mitose or one of his teachers.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 26, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Something y'all sorta blew past, so I'll mention it again cuz it bears repeating...the influences on Parker from Wongs system, through Lefiti. Mok, Mok ga, Mok Gar, whatever.


Agreed, however, I don't believe that the 5 animal influences came from here. 



Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> The Crane influence is there more than appears; the paths of travel, loading weapons for impact while the involved appendage moves through the arc of the path, long-hand movements from the shoulder with smaller circles described at the hands and wrists in complementary or counter-orbits...these should all be present in good AK, but of aren't -- too far removed from the tree. Movement from the core, involving the stance changes and torso tensions -- should also be there, but just get dropped.


  Agreed, like I said above, I see a lot of crane in Kenpo, I just unfortunately see a lot of poorly executed crane.  I think a lot of this is due to the underlying principles not being taught for the 5 animals.  Unfortunate, but only a small weakness that is easily overcome by learning the underlying principles and applying them to your kenpo!



Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> As for Twin Fists assertion that Mr. Parker took the jujutsu out of kenpo, I whole-heartedly disagree. Danzan-Ryu influences and Judo influences abound in the system. A good instructor will isolate these movements & waza from within a self-defense technique, and train them in isolation...the sukuinage in Locking Horns or Dance of Death; the Osoto-guruma hiding in Tripping Arrow, the katate-dori ich in Reversing Circles, etc. If they have not been accentuated, it's cuz the teacher doesn't know about them, or has never had them isolated for him. Mr. Parker was a -dan rank in judo under a judo legend in the islands, seperate from his kenpo training, and maintained close ties with DZR seniors in Hawaii and here on the mainland. Almost every technique in the 32 system up through green/brown has a jujutsu waza embedded in it. They also have opportunities to explore the space using CLF movement patterns, if one gets past the incliniation to assume Mr. Parker was pushing a linear art.


  Agreed, I must have missed that...  Well put, it is still there and extremely effective IMHO.



Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Finally, Mr. Parker called his kenpo "Chinese kenpo" for a while, as well, particularly while woking in the influences fom Woo, Wong, and Lefiti. Many who left his organization in the early years still refer to it by same.



Yup, in fact his first book pays homage to that too!  And I think if it wasn't for the politics, it would still be called that!


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 26, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> ...but I acknowledge that I know nothing of kara-ho, and certainly don't know everything about all things kenpo.



LOL, I don't think anyone alive knows ALL things kenpo 

I know virtually nothing about Tracy Kenpo other than Will apparently did some trash talking a couple decades ago that has gotten a lot of flack. I know nothing about what they have blended or taken away or added back in.

My knowledge comes from direct experience.  I have trained in three types of Kenpo, outside of those three systems, I'm not real qualified to speculate about what their kenpo consists of.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

Here is a Kenpoka actually preforming a kenpo version of the Tiger-Crane set that I linked to above.  It *is* pure hongjia and testifies to kenpo having been influenced by hongjai.

This guy is pretty good and you can see how when done at a faster pace you can see where kenpo has been influenced.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 27, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Agreed, like I said above, I see a lot of crane in Kenpo, I just unfortunately see a lot of poorly executed crane. I think a lot of this is due to the underlying principles not being taught for the 5 animals. Unfortunate, but only *a small weakness that is easily overcome by learning the underlying principles and applying them to your kenpo*!


 
I must, painfully, wholeheartedly, agree. I actually bothered to go out to the "mother arts" of kenpo, as well as some "sister" arts, to learn the isolated influences. It was principally the gungfu that brought my strikes to life in kenpo, and the isolated Japanese jujutsu that brought the contol ranges to life. The techniques are still kenpo, but with a different flavor, extending from a different understanding of the roots.

As for CLF and it's influences on kenpo, there are a couple videos I like to link to for demonstrating how kenpo is improved on by bringing in the influences of motion dynamics from the Chinese systems. One for the way our techniques should honor circular movement generated from the core, and the other to demonstrate how forms such as Long 4 should be influenced by CLF to broaden force multipliers in application.

For techniques, as combinations of basics, benefitting from dynamic, but softer & larger, circles: 



Unfortunately, kenpo shortens the circles so far, they lose the destructive power found in working the path of the arc from the core, choosing to work it merely from the elbow. Footage of Mr. Parker demonstrates his own preference for working the larger circles, with utilization of his waist and legs; somehow, though, even many of his own long-term direct students lost it, or simply failed to notice.

As for forms, I'm still waiting to see someone demonstrate Long Form 4 with this level of circular physicality and accentuation, enunciating their movement, instead of mumbling it: 



 I cannot watch this form without thinking to myself in glaring, bold, capital letters, "This is how Long 4 ought to be done".

Heck, may go work on it myself.

D.


----------



## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2009)

Dave,
the JJ elements of the Parker techniques were never stressed or isolated in my training in it, but then, my training was under Steve Spry, so.........you get the idea.

I will have to go back and look at that.




Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> As for Twin Fists assertion that Mr. Parker took the jujutsu out of kenpo, I whole-heartedly disagree.
> 
> Dave


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Dave,
> the JJ elements of the Parker techniques were never stressed or isolated in my training in it, but then, my training was under Steve Spry, so.........you get the idea.
> 
> I will have to go back and look at that.


 
Orange County kenpo was a strange gig back in the day. There were many cool resources, some of which knew more than they shared, some of which somehow gre up in a rich field of information but never accessed it or passed it on. I know Spry hung with some guys like Sol, which could have been used as an intro point to get with other limalama guys from different backgrounds, who still lived and taught in their yards within 1/2 hour drives. 

Some of the kajukenbo guys that merged into limalama had heavy DZR influences (lots of Okazaki injection into the whole Hawaiian martial arts clans scene), and they were good for seeing the isolations. Tino's people were good for seeing what some of the early Spalshing Hands+Kenpo infusions looked like. 

Spry was: Parker > Perry/White > Brock > Spry. Perry and Dimmick were the two main Parker kenpo influences in OC, both of whom bailed early cuzza money and politics. But both of whoms schools used to teach the old isolations methodology -- you know: Learning how to put someone in a hammerlock restraining hold in the same lesson you next learn Locked Wind or Flight to Freedom in. It just all got dropped somewhere. Even Mr. Parker stopped covering it. More than one old dawg has said it was on account of business building...that you can't really have a kids class torquing each others' joints and slamming each other into the mat with throws and take-downs. I guess it makes sense: A Sam-Pai black belt I trained with for years just got shoulder surgery to fix damage from a judo session we had back in the early 90's. 

The other old kenpo influences in OC were through Dave German and his TAI schools. He actually shaped his cirriculum around specifically training the grappling moves in isolation, then re-injecting them back into the techniques (i.e., do 100 osoto throws, THEN go back to Tripping Arrow and see how your take-down launches the guy). 

And you know all those rea bear-hug techniques that end with knocking the guy over your leg after you circle it around behind him? Straight off the DZR technique list from Okazaki (they call them "boards"). 

James Hawkins did a cool thing -- I'll look for it to see if I can find it and e/m it to you. Went through the kenpo techs, and identified by name the jujittie maneuvers embedded in them. Great training tool; used it for modifying the basics sections of my requirement cards -- always had a "controls, throws,and take-downs" section that was more random than applicable to the cirriculum ("Gee...they should know how to do an osoto, hip, and shoulder throw by this level; think I'll stick it in there as a side-bar"), so his list allowed me to make the category match the techniques for that belt. 

Perry knew a lot of this stuff, too. He just stopped caring, because students didn't. But if you got him talking about it, he could go on for hours...including the Japanese names. That always surprised the hell out of me; slick American used car sales kenpo guy spewing out the Japanese names for Parker kenpo basics, and judo chokes, throws, manipulations and control positions.

I gotta get to the gym to get my cardio up for the end of September. I'll see if I can find James' list when I get back.

Be good,

D.

PS -- I do agree it was over-cerebralized, but have to admit -- as a bit of a cerebral dork, it's some of what appeals to me.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Watch the Tiger-Crane form. This form reminds me a lot of the Chow techniques. In fact, I see many movements in there that found themselves into the techs.
> 
> You're absolutely right that most Chinese systems don't have preset defensive manuvers and use the forms to teach the techs. Chow never really taught preset techniques until later in his teaching. He extrapolated from the forms and taught mostly from them for SD techs.
> 
> ...


 
I am familiar with Hung ga's tiger/crane form, I've learned a shortened version from my kung fu sifu, and as a Tracy kenpo guy I've also learned the adopted Tracy's version.  It is that limited hung ga experience that has me questioning Chow's alleged hung ga background.  I'm just not seeing technques and methods in kenpo, at least not in Tracy kenpo, that are reminiscient to hung ga (other than the adoption of that particular form), and it seems like if it was there, it ought to show up in Tracys.  I believe Tracy's version of Tiger/Crane came from Jimmy Woo, so again, while there was at least that much influence, it didn't come from Chow.  I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, I'm just saying that from my very limited knowledge of hung ga, I'm not seeing it in the lineage of kenpo that I'm in.  Of course that says nothing about what may be going on in Kara-ho, and I acknowledge that.

It is possible that Parker dropped the hung ga methods in favor of others, as you suggest.  However, the monkey-wrench in that suggestion is that Tracy's doesn't show much of anything that I recognize as hung ga.  Since Tracys tried to keep things closer to what Mr. Parker taught them in the 1950s to early 1960s, it seems that this would be closer to what Mr. Chow had taught Parker.  If Chow had hung ga as a family art from his father, it seems that he would have made a point of teaching that to his students.  Hence, it seems reasonable that we would see it in Tracys kenpo.  If it is true that Chow was a hung ga man, then I think the only possibility is that Chow chose to drop it in favor of other methods, and never taught it, at least not to Parker.  I wonder what would have convinced Chow to drop it, especially if it was something he learned from his father?  I dunno.

interesting discussion, interesting things to think about.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Quite frankly, I see a lot, I also unfortunately see a lot not done well too, but that is from studying Crane with my Choy Li Fut training.


 
what are the crane techniques like, in CLF? 



> But there are moments where I step back and go, "Wow! I see it there!"


 
yes, I've had very similar "lightbulb" moments with kenpo and Tibetan crane methods.



> As I said, I think the Crane came to Kenpo through the Hongjai, but there is also a legend out there saying that White Crane is the major influence for Karate... so who knows, If you believe that it could have entered Kenpo through Mitose or one of his teachers.


 
There is a very very important point here, however.  The White Crane that was so influential in the development of the Okinawan karate systems was Fukien White Crane, which is not the same as Tibetan White Crane, which is what I study. The two systems are completely different from each other.  They have a different history and development, and their techniques, strategies, and methodologies are completely different.  They look nothing like each other.  Tibetan Crane influenced Hung Ga.  I do not know if Fukien crane also influenced hung ga.

Tibetan crane is a very long-arm system, utilizing a very extreme full-body pivot to drive our strikes thru.  You would note some level of superficial similarity with CLF.  Fukien crane looks something like wing chun, in a way.  Sanchin kata comes directly from Fukien crane, and Fukien Cranes' version is absolutely identifiable as the same form.  Tibetan crane has nothing even remotely similar to something like Sanchin.

It's interesting to note that completely different arts can have a similar name.  It seems that different groups of people focused on different aspects of what is "Crane", and followed different paths.  The same animal inspired the development of two or even more, very different systems.  This is why I ask what the crane is like in CLF, and while I'm at it, I guess I ought to ask what is the crane like that you see in Kara-ho?


----------



## marlon (Aug 27, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Here is a Kenpoka actually preforming a kenpo version of the Tiger-Crane set that I linked to above. It *is* pure hongjia and testifies to kenpo having been influenced by hongjai.
> 
> This guy is pretty good and you can see how when done at a faster pace you can see where kenpo has been influenced.


 
it does not really look like the fu hook song yi that i have seen from the hung gar system (except at around 1m20sec to 1m28 secs)  But i will ask a friend.

Marlon


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2009)

marlon said:


> it does not really look like the fu hook song yi that i have seen from the hung gar system (except at around 1m20sec to 1m28 secs) But i will ask a friend.
> 
> Marlon


 
It has been thoroughly kenpo-ised.  I do not know if that was deliberate, or if it was an inevitable result of kenpo guys doing the form that they learned from Jimmy Woo, but without having developed the full hung ga base and theory upon which the form should sit.  In essence, I believe the kenpo guys of the time learned it from Woo, but practiced it based on their understanding of kenpo, using kenpo theories and methods instead of hung ga theories and methods, to drive the form.  But I agree, it has a very different character from the way a hung ga man would practice it.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

CLF crane form
CLF 5 animal form  This as you can see has a lot of crane in it.

So after what you have said, I'm assuming that CLF is more influenced by Tibetan Crane - which makes sense. If hongjia was influenced by it, they claim to have gotten the crane from the Shaolin, and CLF claim the 5 animals also come from the Shaolin.... sooo, there you go 

With Chow, he obviously did abandon hongjia in favor of kenpo (otherwise I think he never would have bothered much with Mitosie and would have just taught hongjia), however it is still readily apparent in his approach to techniques.  And IMHO is still apparent in some of the kara-ho techniques. They have a penchant to grab soft tissue and rip, this does not come from Aikido, Karate, or the Jujitsu elements.  Certainly, not  from the Korean influence....  I don't know I have seen a lot of Hingjia forms and seen demos of their practical applications, the similarities and cruelty in the destruction caused is uncanny.  And from what I've heard from GM Kuoha during "Dojo story times" is that Chow was an incredibly cruel and destructive fighter.  I just call that smart fighting, but hey to each their own!  The Hongjia connection just makes sense to me.  Unfortunately there is no way to know for absolute certain.  There are conflicting stories, but I view GM Kuoha as an honest man with no reason to lie about it, and he knew Chow quite well.  And considering he inherited the system from Chow, I have a hard time believing he'd perpetuate a myth that had no grounding in reality.  

Who knows, I have never heard that Chow was a master of hongjia, just that his father taught it to him growing up.  Perhaps his hongjia was not very advanced when he left to train in Kenpo-Jujitsu.  It is something interesting to think about that is for sure.


----------



## clfsean (Aug 27, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> CLF crane form



I know that Crane set. The only thing that makes it Crane is the use of Hok Ding & Hok Jui in places where a fist would go in a lot of places.



Xinglu said:


> CLF 5 animal form  This as you can see has a lot of crane in it.



I practice this version of Ng Ying. There's really not a lot of crane in it. 



Xinglu said:


> So after what you have said, I'm assuming that CLF is more influenced by Tibetan Crane - which makes sense. If hongjia was influenced by it, they claim to have gotten the crane from the Shaolin, and CLF claim the 5 animals also come from the Shaolin.... sooo, there you go



CLF has a definite long arm influence that was probably brought about by the Lion's Roar & substyles brought to Southern China.  CLF Ng Ying uses the Shaolin name because CLF is an amalgam of 3 Shaolin styles. But that's not where the 5 Animals come from in that set.

I'm getting this thread off topic though... enough from me.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> It has been thoroughly kenpo-ised.  I do not know if that was deliberate, or if it was an inevitable result of kenpo guys doing the form that they learned from Jimmy Woo, but without having developed the full hung ga base and theory upon which the form should sit.
> 
> ...But I agree, it has a very different character from the way a hung ga man would practice it.



This was my understanding as well, that it is supposed to be a kenpo version of the hongjia form.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

clfsean said:


> I practice this version of Ng Ying. There's really not a lot of crane in it.



The entire opening is almost completely crane.

Here are the movements: Crane flies into the sky, crane cools it's wings, crane stretches left claw, Crane stretches leg to the right, then to the left, then forward, lazy tiger stretches his leg back, crane leaps up and kicks behind, crane guards the cave, Crane guards his nest, Wild Tiger looks back, Crane opens his wings and kicks.  From there it goes into the other five animals, but the entire opening is crane. I think it is a good example.


----------



## clfsean (Aug 27, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> The entire opening is almost completely crane.
> 
> Here are the movements: Crane flies into the sky, crane cools it's wings, crane stretches left claw, Crane stretches leg to the right, then to the left, then forward, lazy tiger stretches his leg back, crane leaps up and kicks behind, crane guards the cave, Crane guards his nest, Wild Tiger looks back, Crane opens his wings and kicks.  From there it goes into the other five animals, but the entire opening is crane. I think it is a good example.



No... it's not. Those are the poetic names for the motions & techniques in lyric format. It doesn't necessitate usage or origin. 

Do you practice this form?


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

clfsean said:


> No... it's not. Those are the poetic names for the motions & techniques in lyric format. It doesn't necessitate usage or origin.
> 
> Do you practice this form?



I do, and I was always taught that these are crane movements and postures.

For example Crane guards the cave is a heding (&#40548;&#39030 movement, Crane stands on one leg is can be combined with crane stretches his claw for a good defense against a kick with a counter attack.

Our crane form differs from the one I linked above, but I couldn't find any videos of it.  Ours uses a lot of the Heyi (&#40548;&#32764, Hejing (&#40548;&#39048 and with spattering of Hezui (&#40548;&#22068. The form is fast and broken up with standing on one leg and doing slower movements while on one leg to strengthen them, Tons of standing on one leg and one leg squats... it's a great work out.


----------



## clfsean (Aug 27, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> I do, and I was always taught that these are crane movements and postures.



To each his own then. I learned & prefer the straight forward technique method for the set & all the others.



Xinglu said:


> For example Crane guards the cave is a heding (&#40548;&#39030 movement, Crane stands on one leg is can be combined with crane stretches his claw for a good defense against a kick with a counter attack.



You mean Foi Sing Tek Dao?



Xinglu said:


> Our crane form differs from the one I linked above, but I couldn't find any videos of it.  Ours uses a lot of the Heyi (&#40548;&#32764, Hejing (&#40548;&#39048 and with spattering of Hezui (&#40548;&#22068. The form is fast and broken up with standing on one leg and doing slower movements while on one leg to strengthen them, Tons of standing on one leg and one leg squats... it's a great work out.



I've seen it & don't care for it personally. But that's just me. 

We need to continue (?) this conversation on the CMA side & get it out of the kenpo folks thread.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

clfsean said:


> We need to continue (?) this conversation on the CMA side & get it out of the kenpo folks thread.


You're right, we're way off topic now


----------



## suicide (Aug 27, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Watch the Tiger-Crane form. This form reminds me a lot of the Chow techniques. In fact, I see many movements in there that found themselves into the techs.
> 
> You're absolutely right that most Chinese systems don't have preset defensive manuvers and use the forms to teach the techs. Chow never really taught preset techniques until later in his teaching. He extrapolated from the forms and taught mostly from them for SD techs.
> 
> ...


 

its a buetiful form just watched it , but do forms got to be so LONG ? and of all the other people that have incorporated this into there system have they simplified or do they do it identical ?


----------



## TenTigers (Aug 27, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I
> So if Chow was really a hung ga man, why does none of the kenpo that has descended from him (at least as far as I have seen) look nothing like hung ga, and maintain essentially none of the hung ga curriculum with the one exception i've mentioned above?


Moi Fa Kuen (depending on the lineage) has several techniques that have kenpo flavor-or is it visa-versa? 
No offense, but the fact that you are not a Hung-Ga practitioner is why you don't see the techniqes within Kenpo.


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

suicide said:


> its a buetiful form just watched it , but do forms got to be so LONG ? and of all the other people that have incorporated this into there system have they simplified or do they do it identical ?



Traditionally there were no preset techniques, all the techniques were derived from the movements in the forms.  This meant that you either had long forms, or a whole lot of forms to have an extensive martial art.  It is not uncommon to find CMA that have hundreds of forms with some of them having over 200 movements.

Most systems when they incorporate things like this cannibalize the form and import movements that blend well with their current system or improve the way it works.  In the case of the Tracy form, they seem to have "kenpoized" it but left the large majority of it intact.  I would be greatly interested as to why they did that, I like it, but IMHO it does seem out of place looking at the rest of the forms...


----------



## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

TenTigers said:


> Moi Fa Kuen (depending on the lineage) has several techniques that have kenpo flavor-or is it visa-versa?
> No offense, but the fact that you are not a Hung-Ga practitioner is why you don't see the techniques within Kenpo.



There is also the distinct possibility that his instructors don't emphasize those movements or principles.  For example, The instructor I learned Kara-ho from trained directly under Chow.  So the influence might be stronger because of that - The Tracy's (please correct me if I'm wrong) are teaching parker's system pre what they call "commercialization" and pre-rift with Woo.

That means Parker had Changed things *a lot* and blended a lot in, They have also taught Kenpo according to their own interpretation.  I don't know if he studied under the Tracy's or under someone who trained from them... but generationally he might be a lot further removed from Chow then say I am, thus what he is learned might not look as close to what Chow was doing as what I have seen.

Furthermore, I'm not a hongjia practitioner, but I do cross train with a buddy of mine who is - so perhaps that is why I see it more in Kenpo then others.  I don't know.


----------



## Milt G. (Aug 28, 2009)

Hello,
Differences...  In a *nutshell*...

Ed Parker's Kenpo:  Technique extensions, few Chinese forms, but many basics sets.

Tracy's Kenpo:  More techniques, but no extensions, added Chinese based forms.

Between these two, seems like pretty much a wash to me.  Sans, the politics and ego, of course.  Perhaps truly a "Ford/Chevy" arguement?  

I cannot comment on the other Kenpo based forms as I am not as familiar with them.

Thank you,
Milt G.


----------



## dianhsuhe (Sep 2, 2009)

It is SIFU Dwight Love and no his Kung-Fu has not been added to Kara-Ho Kempo but Shihan Ka'imi has indeed trained with him for quite some time.

Xing-Lu, please be careful in your analysis of Kara-Ho and Grandmaster Kuoha's "intent" with Kara-Ho.  You seem to have only a mild idea of the system.

Do not make guesses and publish them as fact-

Should I ask what rank you attained in Kara-Ho?

Sensei Jamey


----------



## Xinglu (Sep 2, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> It is SIFU Dwight Love and no his Kung-Fu has not been added to Kara-Ho Kempo but Shihan Ka'imi has indeed trained with him for quite some time.


It is only correct to refer to someone as Shifu/Sifu if they are *your* shifu/sifu, he is not, ergo I don't.  He is an exceptionally talented man, and I respect him, but I also respect Chinese traditions and will never imply that I ever formally studied under him by calling him Shifu/Sifu.  But, I do know the man and have spoken with him in depth on several occasions.

Furthermore, I never said it was his that had been blended.  I said I suspected it.  After all GM Kuoha did study gongfu, and he and Dwight (from Dwight's own mouth) "go back a long time."  I also said, and this is logical rational: that Ka'imi having trained with Dwight when she adds to the art, I'm sure we will see some of that influence.  You see that is my opinion, but it is based in sound reasoning.  It is my opinion that all of the training we do affects how we move and do things.  There is nothing unreasonable about speculating that when she inherits the art, she will do as her father before her has done and add to the art, improving things as she deems fit.  To do so she will dig deep and draw from all her knowledge.  For instances I know she has implemented some training changes already, at least according to the Kahananui family.  Nani, I'm sure you know her (Shihan Ben's daughter), her brother's children are training up there and she has said that things are quite different from when we trained.  I trust her. In fact, I took a group of Boy scouts up there to watch a class a few years ago so they could learn about MA, the training was different then I had remembered.  More in the direction things where going when I left.  So, those two things added together lead me to believe Nani, and leads me to believe that Ka'imi will leave her mark on Kara-Ho.  And if she is to inherit the art, she should leave her mark!



dianhsuhe said:


> Xing-Lu, please be careful in your analysis of Kara-Ho and Grandmaster Kuoha's "intent" with Kara-Ho.


 Every time I have speculated about GM Kuoha's intent I have encouraged all to ask him about it.  He is on here and can answer those questions.  Never once have I implied to speak in an official capacity for him or the organization as a whole.  I have been clear about that from the beginning, which means you have either misunderstood me in my posts or have not really read them.  I have also encouraged people to also speak to GM Kouha about Chow and the questions they have regarding him.



dianhsuhe said:


> You seem to have only a mild idea of the system.


 I don't need my 5th dan to know the history of Kenpo or to know what I have heard directly from GM Kuoha, Ka'imi, or Shihan Kahananui.  Is Sensei Al still around? He and I used to have long conversations about the influences of Kara-Ho.  The most memorable to me was during the Wyoming trip in his Volvo.  I know Sensei Dan left, what About Sensei Bill, tall, cop, really loved his Motorcycle...



dianhsuhe said:


> Do not make guesses and publish them as fact-


No where have I published anything as a fact except the following: I trained in Kara-Ho, my instructor trained under Chow directly (as it was GM), and that GM referred to Hongjia during "dojo story time," you know the time after saturday classes where we would all sit and listen and ask questions about Kara-Ho, that he added Aikido elements (look no further then Ki princible which are to be applied to all strikes and kicks, Lead Ki techs, and Knife defense techiques, not to mention the Jo form) and the Korean kicks (Jumping spinning wheel. In fact, just look at the "line works", in particular number 5), having studied Tang Soo Do I easily recognize a korean style kick when I see one, and it is a fact that GM studied the Korean arts.  He took a great weapon and blended it into Kenpo, nothing wrong with that.

Other than that it has all been opinion, and I have been clear about that, referring people to GM to get the official answer.



dianhsuhe said:


> Should I ask what rank you attained in Kara-Ho?


  Should you?  Are you?  At any rate I'm going to assume that _was_ your request.  I studied from age 7 to age 17 and earned my green belt and was preparing to test for my advanced green.  I Stopped training shortly after he opened the commercial studio in El Cajon next to Kinkos (on E. Main and 2nd st.) for a vast multitude of reasons none of which are appropriate for a public forum.  However, I would be more than willing to continue that discussion in PM with you.


----------



## KenpoDave (Sep 2, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> There are also Chinese sets in Tracys that did not come from Mr. Woo. As is true with many of the early kenpo people, the Tracys had other influences and teachers along the way as well. I think they basically took the approach that if you learn something new that you can bring into the system and make it better, then do so. But don't take something out of the system or you might risk dropping something that is worth while. I've heard the same sentiment expressed among some Shaolin proponents as well. Seems like some of the Longfist forms have versions taught in certain schools that are quite long compared to other schools teaching the same forms. I guess the leaders in some lineages kept adding things over several generations that other lineages did not, and their version of some of these forms is now a lot longer than others.
> 
> I recently had the chance to read a copy of Mr. Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate, that contained the "Book Set". What was outlined in the book is actually the Two-Man Set, and not Panther. I always understood that the reference to the name "Book Set" was due to the inclusion in the publication. That would mean that Two-Man Set is the Book Set, and not Panther. However, I've seen Panther also referred to as "Book Set". Anyone got any comments to clarify that point?


 
Book Set (Panther) was originally going to be in the book.

(edit) but I see that was already covered...


----------



## dianhsuhe (Sep 2, 2009)

Xing-Lu, please accept my apology for being assertive and not reading each thread as you have mentioned.

I am afraid I went into "protection mode" as I have done so many times in regards to Kara-Ho and Grandmaster Kuoha.

It is obvious you know quite well what you are talking about and I apologize again for being a bit of a jerk.

I am convinced we know each other then as I have been in Kara-Ho since 1993.

Take care and please have no hard feelings.

P.S. lame-Bo is different as a result of Shihan Ka'imi's training with Sifu Dwight.  Good stuff!

Sensei Jamey
Sandan, Kara-Ho


----------



## Xinglu (Sep 2, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> Xing-Lu, please accept my apology for being assertive and not reading each thread as you have mentioned.
> 
> I am afraid I went into "protection mode" as I have done so many times in regards to Kara-Ho and Grandmaster Kuoha.
> 
> ...



James, no hard feelings.  I too have on many occasions gone into protection mode regarding the arts I have studied and my instructors, none more often then Kara-Ho.  I know exactly where you are coming from brother. 

I'm sure we know each other, you're name is familiar to me.  I would love to see what she has done with the Bo set.

Peace be with you!


----------

