# Grandmaster Frank DeMaria convicted



## Bill Mattocks

I have known about the accusations and the trial for some time now.  I refrained from mentioning it because a) we martial artists appear to be averse to discussing issues surrounding sexual abuse by martial artists and MA instructors and b) GM DeMaria is, unlike most MA figures arrested for such things, a very well-known individual.

I will not claim to know the facts, and I do not sit in judgment.  But the verdict has been rendered, and GM DeMaria stands convicted of the crimes of which he was accused.

I would hope we could have a discussion on this topic, without personal anger or vitriole, if it is possible to do so.  If not, I would hope the mods close the thread promptly to avoid issues.  I am not trying to stir the pot here; but this subject deserves discussion.  I'm not sure how much longer we can pretend it doesn't happen quite often.

http://www.delawareonline.com/artic...tiger-claw-move?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home



> WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. -- A kung fu grandmaster was convicted Tuesday of all charges in the sexual abuse of young girls at his martial arts studio .
> 
> A Westchester County jury found 68-year-old Frank DeMaria guilty of three counts of second-degree course of sexual conduct against a child and two counts of first-degree sexual abuse, both felonies, and four counts of child endangerment, a misdemeanor.
> 
> DeMaria was taken into custody after the jury announced its verdict following two days of deliberations. He faces up to seven years in state prison when he is sentenced May 8.
> 
> DeMaria, a retired Westchester County police officer who ran the American Center of Chinese Studies in Croton-on-Hudson, which is defunct, was accused of having the girls, then ages 6 to 11, reach behind them and fondle his genitals between November 2009 and January 2011.



http://grandmasterdemaria.blogspot.com/

http://www.kungfu.org/grand.shtml

Keep it civil if you choose to respond.  Maybe we can discuss this like adults.


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## Xue Sheng

I read about this back when he was first charged. He was accused, he was found guilty, and he will go to jail, I'm ok with that, whether or not he trains MA has nothing to do with it. 

What do you want to discuss?

Giving this some direction other than lets discuss and keep it civil may might help you get to the discussion you where after.

I know nothing about the case but it may help your discussion if you know the NYS laws that apply NYS Penal Law -ARTICLE 130 - SEX OFFENSES


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## Twin Fist

why does his name sound familiar to me?


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## elder999

I've known Frank for a loong time-I grew up living just down the road from him, and I'm friends with many-probably most-of his senior students. When they were getting ready for shuai chao tournaments, and needed to wrestle with judoka (because at the time, judoka were entering and winning those tournaments) I was one of the guys they got to try and toss around. here was always what I perceived to be a bit of a "cult of personality" thing going on there, but it wasn't that different from some other TCMA groups.

It's a shame-you think you know somebody, but there's no way you can, I guess. I don't really have much of anything else to say really-I wasn't there. I haven't been there for a long time, and don't know how much he's changed., or how much he actually kept hidden-it sounded an awful lot he'd probably gone nuts to me: to do such a thing almost directly in front of  parent's and other's' views isn't the usual MO for a pedophile. 

My heargt goes out to  those kids and their parents, though, as well as to his many students who are really, really good people.


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## Twin Fist

one reason to discuss this is that those of us who teach need to be mindfull of such things.

like me, i refuse to be alone with a student under the age of 18 of either gender 

thats to protect myself.

I tell people that if thier kids are taking lessons, to never allow the kids to be alone with an instructor.

thats to protect them


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## SahBumNimRush

Who knows whether or not he is truly guilty of sexual misconduct, but IMO he is definitely guilty of ill judgement.  This is why risk management should *CONSTANTLY* be on the minds of all instructors.  

Awareness is key.  These days, you need to be aware of *anything* that could be interpreted as inappropriate.  Once you are aware of it, you need to make a conscious decision about what to do.  If you feel that it is necessary/appropriate to condone/support/perform something that could be interpreted as inappropriate, parent education and student education is vitally important.  It's called informed consent.  

I have been struggling with a potential liability in my training hall recently.  Particularly after the Sandusky scandal.  It deals with the locker rooms.  We have a mixed age class, so there is the potential for young children to be in the locker room with adults.  All it takes is an allegation to ruin the school and its reputation.  Now, this has been the standard before I even started (at age 5) back in the 80's, and nothing has ever been a problem.  But it is a risk.  I have debated on mandating that parents accompany their children in the locker rooms.


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## elder999

Twin Fist said:
			
		

> why does his name sound familiar to me?



He's the adopted son of Great Grandmaster Chang Dung Sheng-he starred in some movies back in the 70's. He was kinda famous.

Oh, and he was one of the kenpo students of John McSweeney in Elmsford, New York a looong time ago....


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## SahBumNimRush

As a semi-unrelated note: All males wear groin protectors at all times in my training hall, which on some level would negate an issue like this.  However, I stand by my previous comment that it was very poor judgement to put himself in such a risky situation to begin with.


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## Bill Mattocks

Xue Sheng said:


> What do you want to discuss?



I wasn't after anything in particular, but since you ask, one thing I wonder about is how we, as a martial arts community, can respond.

I think it is pretty well understood that any activity which involves children and puts adults into leadership positions can and has been abused by predators.  From religion to scouting to coaching to teaching to martial arts instruction; if the potential is there, there will be a small minority of predators attracted to that situation.

Unlike many other groups, we have fewer ways of talking about this together; we do not have overarching national or global organizations or associations, we have no central hierarchy.  I'm not suggesting that we should, by the way...but I am wondering how we can together spread awareness and combat this sort of thing.  It affects us all, as students, instructors, and owners of martial arts training facilities (I am just a student, but just saying).  So how do we address this - or do we just ignore it?


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## MJS

Its really a shame that this stuff happens.  I suppose that you can never be too safe.  Going by the article, it would seem to me that these kids must've been in a class or private lesson, without any adults present.  Whats worse, is that due to the fact that the arts involve contact, it goes to show that you need to be more mindful of whats going on.


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## elder999

MJS said:
			
		

> .  Going by the article, it would seem to me that these kids must've been in a class or private lesson, without any adults present. .



No, or, at least, not always-it was witnessed by two adult students and a parent.


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## MJS

Bill Mattocks said:


> I wasn't after anything in particular, but since you ask, one thing I wonder about is how we, as a martial arts community, can respond.
> 
> I think it is pretty well understood that any activity which involves children and puts adults into leadership positions can and has been abused by predators.  From religion to scouting to coaching to teaching to martial arts instruction; if the potential is there, there will be a small minority of predators attracted to that situation.
> 
> Unlike many other groups, we have fewer ways of talking about this together; we do not have overarching national or global organizations or associations, we have no central hierarchy.  I'm not suggesting that we should, by the way...but I am wondering how we can together spread awareness and combat this sort of thing.  It affects us all, as students, instructors, and owners of martial arts training facilities (I am just a student, but just saying).  So how do we address this - or do we just ignore it?



A few things that come to mind:

Check your local sex offender registry.  

Contact your local LE agency and see if theres any way to conduct some sort of background check on the inst.  Yeah, that may be a bit on the extreme end of things, but hey, if this is your childs well being we're talking about, it'd be worth it,IMO.

Do research.  Yes, in some cases, its easier said than done, but something like this forum is a good resource.  Who knows...maybe someone might have some knowldged of a particular school, inst., etc.  

Keep your eye on your child.  So many times, I'd have to wonder if some kids actually had parents, because I never saw them.  

Talk to current parents/students at the school.  

Watch a few classes before joining.


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## MJS

elder999 said:


> No, or, at least, not always-it was witnessed by two adult students and a parent.



Oh ok.  Well, in that case, this guy must be pretty dumb to do something like this.  I mean, what did he think, that nobody would see him with these young kids?


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## elder999

MJS said:
			
		

> A few things that come to mind:
> 
> Check your local sex offender registry.
> 
> Contact your local LE agency and see if theres any way to conduct some sort of background check on the inst.  Yeah, that may be a bit on the extreme end of things, but hey, if this is your childs well being we're talking about, it'd be worth it,IMO.
> 
> Do research.  Yes, in some cases, its easier said than done, but something like this forum is a good resource.  Who knows...maybe someone might have some knowldged of a particular school, inst., etc.
> 
> Keep your eye on your child.  So many times, I'd have to wonder if some kids actually had parents, because I never saw them.
> 
> Talk to current parents/students at the school.
> 
> Watch a few classes before joining.




Frank would have passed by all of these-and I find it hard to believe that after teaching in the area for more than 39 years, this was a long time pattern of behavior on his part. 

I don't know what it was, and can only speculate.

Here's Chang Dung Sheng performing the tiger cllaw to the groin:




Which is not, of course, an appropriate move for a man to be instructing a 6 or 11 year old girl in a corner of the training area by himself-or at all, for that matter. 

Nor is it what witnesses and the girls themselves described.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Oh  ok.  Well, in that case, this guy must be pretty dumb to do something  like this.  I mean, what did he think, that nobody would see him with  these young kids?



A few  more speculations come to mind, because Frank's a pretty intelligent guy. He's 68 years old, though, and, as I said, this doesn't seem to be something that goes back decades (though maybe it does, who can really say?) 

He actually was teaching them a tiger claw to the groin, and it's a case of hysteria.

He actually molested them, and he's gone nuts somewhere along the way-it's not completely unheard of for men his age to behave this way after suffering a stroke, which can sometimes be undetected
He's also been under the ridiculous mental strain of having a wife in the hospital with cancer.

None of which is an excuse-maybe just reasons, for something that seems so unreasonable to most of us..


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## Buka

I HATE this.
 Why?Because I love Martial Arts and I've seen this so many times over the last forty years, that, frankly, I find myself continuously stunned. And, yes, I know it's only a small percentage of the fine men and women who teach the arts, but I'm starting to think it's a higher percentage than it is in a lot of other professions/pastimes. I can tell you that here, in New England, it's happened so many times that it just makes me want to cry.


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## David43515

I`m afraid it`s way too common. Over on the kungfu magazine forum they have a very loooong thread that is nothing but martial artists (mostly instructors) who`ve been accused of crimes. Every post is linked to a news story, so it`s not just a bunch of "he said- she said". And unfortunately most of them are child sex crimes.

I`m not sure what we can do to make it less likely. Run background checks on your kids` instructor? Run them on your staff and adult members if you run a school? Don`t allow any training without a minimum number of people present? Stop kids` classes all together? Use a buddy system? The problems are that some solutions aren`t an option for every club or school, and preditors find ways around each solution. 

On top of all that, how do you avoid being falsley accused yourself? Is making sure there`s always a 3rd person in the room enough?
I spent 2 years as a missionary when I was young and we had very strict rules about fraternization with members of the opposite sex. One of our duties was teaching English once a week. One time I was yelled at for being alone in a small classroom with two young women where no one could keep an eye on us. So the next time our class was smaller than usual  I moved a couple of chairs into a gymnasium where we would be out in the open and easily seen by everyone. The next day I was called into the Mission President`s office to explain why several church members were calling to say that I`d been sitting in a corner of the gym talking to two young ladies. I couldn`t win either way.


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## Black Belt Jedi

It doesn't surprise me. These things can happen in any Martial Arts school where an Instructor can be a pedophile and have affairs with minors as much in an educational institution. Not that I have witnessed it or anything. Martial Arts Instructors should always lead by example, but unfortunately in most cases we hear bad things about these individuals such as physically abusive to students, scam artists, tyrannical, egotistical and now we get to child molestor.


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## fightdoggy

Hmm. I studied with this guy a while back and what struck me most was his ability to talk me to death. Beyond sheer boredom, his fighting was all based in his mind. Sure the moves worked when someone was standing still in front of you, but gm DeMaria was chiefly a self promoter and blabbermouth and most likely produced many deluded "non-fighters". I was not in the least bit surprised that this tool did himself in. His hubris and constant denoting of his semi-pedigree telegraphed a profound insecurity and jive ***-ness. I'm certain he will have plenty of time to contemplate sexual relationships with his peers where he's going and meditate on the children and adults he victimized thru his actions and excruciatingly boring personality.


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## YOGAMAN

in jail i dont think they care if he says he has a perfectly good explanation , that it was all a mis understanding , he s fair game now for other sexual predators , he will have to trust heavily on his MA skills to survive.


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## decepticon

Bill Mattocks said:


> I wasn't after anything in particular, but since you ask, one thing I wonder about is how we, as a martial arts community, can respond.



Perhaps it would help for each one here who heads a school to draft a list of rules that they will commit to follow, such as no one on one training with a minor unless a parent is present, etc. And then make everyone who instructs at your school aware of exactly what is expected. Possibly you could even provide parents of students and adult students with the list and ask them to help you follow them by not placing you in a situation where you would be alone with their children.


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## jks9199

*Admin Note:

Thread moved to Horror Stories.*

*jks9199
Assistant Administrator
*


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## elder999

'Sexually Violent' Former Kung Fu Instructor Reports Move To Putnam


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## JowGaWolf

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have known about the accusations and the trial for some time now.  I refrained from mentioning it because a) we martial artists appear to be averse to discussing issues surrounding sexual abuse by martial artists and MA instructors and b) GM DeMaria is, unlike most MA figures arrested for such things, a very well-known individual.
> 
> I will not claim to know the facts, and I do not sit in judgment.  But the verdict has been rendered, and GM DeMaria stands convicted of the crimes of which he was accused.
> 
> I would hope we could have a discussion on this topic, without personal anger or vitriole, if it is possible to do so.  If not, I would hope the mods close the thread promptly to avoid issues.  I am not trying to stir the pot here; but this subject deserves discussion.  I'm not sure how much longer we can pretend it doesn't happen quite often.
> 
> http://www.delawareonline.com/artic...tiger-claw-move?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home
> 
> 
> 
> Grandmaster's Blog
> 
> ACCS / About Grandmaster
> 
> Keep it civil if you choose to respond.  Maybe we can discuss this like adults.


Regardless of the article. My thoughts is that we often elevate martial art leaders higher than what is healthy and by doing so we forget that they are human too and with flaws.  On the flip side, not saying that this is the case with Fran Demaria, but "victims" can be flawed too.  While I have not been accused of sexual abuse.  I have had people young and old lie about me and claim to be the victim.

Now in regards to article, If he did the crime then he should do the time. Big win for a working justice system.  If he didn't do the crime then we really need to fix our justice system because we seem to have accumulated quite a number of innocent people in our jails and prisons.



Twin Fist said:


> i refuse to be alone with a student under the age of 18 of either gender


 This was the first Rule that I was told when I first started working with children. Always have another multiple people around when working with kids.  After more than 20 years I still follow this rule. It may seem extreme to some, but it beats having a child lie about you because they are mad at you, then to go through all of the legal stuff and damaged reputation.  It definitely wouldn't be the first time that someone has gone jail or prison because someone lied (talking in terms of my safety and not Frank De Maria).  

The thing with contact sports is that hands may unintentionally make contact on certain areas. Miss trying to pin an arm against a body and depending on who you work with it may be breast or chest.  Grappling increased the risk of some of this contact.  Some may recognize it as what it is, a missed pin while others may see it as inappropriate touching.   So it's just always good to have other people around 



elder999 said:


> Here's Chang Dung Sheng performing the tiger cllaw to the groin:


OMG.. That picture didn't give me the reaction that you were probably looking for.  It literally looks like one guy grabbing another man's nipples and the other going for the groin.  lol.  But like I stated before.  Perception is everything


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## Directional Harmony

I find this especially despicable. Girls and women should find empowerment and control through martial arts. A sensei has a special responsibility to never cross that line with female students (children especially, but even grown women).  It's sad that sex offenders find their way into martial arts schools. They should be safe spaces that teach confidence and control over one's own body.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Directional Harmony said:


> It's sad that sex offenders find their way into martial arts schools.


A couple years ago, when I trained in the park, a girl pinched my butts and left. Sexual assault can go both ways.

Should I report that girl to be a sex offender?


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## Directional Harmony

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A couple years ago, when I trained in the park, a girl pinched my butts and left. Sexual assault can go both ways.
> 
> Should I report that girl to be a sex offender?



Of course it can go both ways, but girls and women are victims of sexual abuse far more than men. Not to mention that the GM who is the topic of this thread was sexually abusing girls, not boys. But yes, if you want it explicitly stated, women should not sexually abuse boys or men either.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Directional Harmony said:


> Of course it can go both ways, but girls and women are victims of sexual abuse far more than men.


Do you assume that men enjoy to be abused by women?

I just don't agree that all men are guilty, and all women are innocent.


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## Tez3

The safety of women is very much at the centre of all the media in the UK at the moment following the arrest of a Metropolitan police officer in suspicion of the kidnapping and murder of a woman walking home in London. There will be no more information released now on the case as it is sub judice so no details until the trial.

However, women and young girls are recounting their experiences of sexual or physical harassment and there is so much of it happening everyday. There is not one woman that hasn't been affected by various threats.

Woman are told not to dress in certain ways, not to walk alone, not to go out at night, not to draw attention to themselves. Women who have to walk alone at night are afraid, they clutch their keys in one hand, their mobile phone on speed dial to the police in the other, they change their route, stop in a shop, walk faster all because they are afraid. Day and night there's kerb crawlers, wolf whistles, crude comments from men they don't know, in crowded public transport there's hands touching their pubic area, stroking their backsides, squeezing their breasts. There's 'upskirting', There's sexual comments at work, if they complain they are told it's 'banter' or to get a sense of humour because boys will be boys. There's the man who tells a complete stranger to smile as she looks pretty when she smiles, do you know how creepy that is? How scary in fact. There's so much more, I could be here for hours.

This has nothing to do with the trite 'not all men are guilty, not all women are innocent' rubbish. That misses the point totally. It dismisses yet again women's concerns about safety, 'oh men have worries about violence against them too' the majority of that violence comes from other men,  *all *men don't have to worry about violence the way *ALL *women do.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> The safety of women is very much at the centre of all the media in the UK at the moment following the arrest of a Metropolitan police officer in suspicion of the kidnapping and murder of a woman walking home in London. There will be no more information released now on the case as it is sub judice so no details until the trial.
> 
> However, women and young girls are recounting their experiences of sexual or physical harassment and there is so much of it happening everyday. There is not one woman that hasn't been affected by various threats.
> 
> Woman are told not to dress in certain ways, not to walk alone, not to go out at night, not to draw attention to themselves. Women who have to walk alone at night are afraid, they clutch their keys in one hand, their mobile phone on speed dial to the police in the other, they change their route, stop in a shop, walk faster all because they are afraid. Day and night there's kerb crawlers, wolf whistles, crude comments from men they don't know, in crowded public transport there's hands touching their pubic area, stroking their backsides, squeezing their breasts. There's 'upskirting', There's sexual comments at work, if they complain they are told it's 'banter' or to get a sense of humour because boys will be boys. There's the man who tells a complete stranger to smile as she looks pretty when she smiles, do you know how creepy that is? How scary in fact. There's so much more, I could be here for hours.
> 
> This has nothing to do with the trite 'not all men are guilty, not all women are innocent' rubbish. That misses the point totally. It dismisses yet again women's concerns about safety, 'oh men have worries about violence against them too' the majority of that violence comes from other men,  *all *men don't have to worry about violence the way *ALL *women do.



Yeah. The best thing we can do is separate violence in terms of gender. That way I don't have to empathise with problems i can't relate to.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Yeah. The best thing we can do is separate violence in terms of gender. That way I don't have to empathise with problems i can't relate to.



As I said the subject of women's safety is at the front of people's minds at the moment here, it didn't help when the Met police were shown being violent to women who were at a vigil on Saturday for the murdered woman.  A poster here brought up the subject of violence against women, as in the OP the conviction was for crimes against females so yes the focus is on women at this point.



I've copied this from a friend of mine Rosi who is now in politics. She was addressing someone who said men also have violence aimed at them.

"From being teenagers, girls very often have less freedom than boys do, and that continues as adults. We're conditioned by society to feel unsafe doing things that men take for granted. (Even as a former professional fighter, I still feel this).

Yes, men are at risk of violence too. That's absolutely a problem - but it's a different problem. If the only time you talk about the problem of violence against men is when someone is talking about violence against women, that says something about your level of concern.
No, the vast majority of men do not abduct and rape strangers. And plenty of you wouldn't dream of hurting a woman. But perhaps think about the rape or domestic violence jokes you don't call out, or the friend who sexually harasses women when he gets drunk (but he's your mate and isn't *really* doing any harm), or the martial arts coach you don't want to believe is abusing his girlfriend so you look the other way.Ironically, women are far *more* at risk when everyone stays at home. Over 30 women have been killed by men already this year. The reason you haven't heard of most of them is because most were killed by partners or family members, often in their own homes. It's so common it rarely makes the news. "


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## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> As I said the subject of women's safety is at the front of people's minds at the moment here, it didn't help when the Met police were shown being violent to women who were at a vigil on Saturday for the murdered woman.  A poster here brought up the subject of violence against women, as in the OP the conviction was for crimes against females so yes the focus is on women at this point.



I believe it is second in line here after BLM and racism, unless of course you are Asian ...then apparently racism and abuse appears to be ok... Which is why I worry about my wife a lot these days

It is an important topic to discuss and the discussion should continue. But take note this thread is 9 years old


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## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just don't agree that all men are guilty, and all women are innocent.



Again, a false dichotomy.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> As I said the subject of women's safety is at the front of people's minds at the moment here, it didn't help when the Met police were shown being violent to women who were at a vigil on Saturday for the murdered woman.  A poster here brought up the subject of violence against women, as in the OP the conviction was for crimes against females so yes the focus is on women at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> I've copied this from a friend of mine Rosi who is now in politics. She was addressing someone who said men also have violence aimed at them.
> 
> "From being teenagers, girls very often have less freedom than boys do, and that continues as adults. We're conditioned by society to feel unsafe doing things that men take for granted. (Even as a former professional fighter, I still feel this).
> 
> Yes, men are at risk of violence too. That's absolutely a problem - but it's a different problem. If the only time you talk about the problem of violence against men is when someone is talking about violence against women, that says something about your level of concern.
> No, the vast majority of men do not abduct and rape strangers. And plenty of you wouldn't dream of hurting a woman. But perhaps think about the rape or domestic violence jokes you don't call out, or the friend who sexually harasses women when he gets drunk (but he's your mate and isn't *really* doing any harm), or the martial arts coach you don't want to believe is abusing his girlfriend so you look the other way.Ironically, women are far *more* at risk when everyone stays at home. Over 30 women have been killed by men already this year. The reason you haven't heard of most of them is because most were killed by partners or family members, often in their own homes. It's so common it rarely makes the news. "



Women definitely need to do something to look after themselves.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Women definitely need to do something to look after themselves.



Because? 

why can't women walk down a street in daytime without being catcalled, kerb crawled or have a man try to pick her up?

why can't a woman walk down a well lit pavement at night without being kidnapped and killed?

I doubt many men quite understand the fear, frustration and sheer anger of women at the moment after the death of the young woman.

the government is bringing in a new Bill covering sentencing for crimes, mentions of increased sentences for damaging statues and demonatrating. NOT ONE WORD ABOUT PROTECTING WOMEN. No increased sentences for domestic violence, no guidelines to help get rape cases to court, nothing for women at all. 
This last week started with International Women's Day and ended with Mother's Day, the week in between was pants.


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## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> It is an important topic to discuss and the discussion should continue. But take note this thread is 9 years old



And nothing has changed.


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## isshinryuronin

Tez3 said:


> Because?
> 
> why can't women walk down a street in daytime without being catcalled, kerb crawled or have a man try to pick her up?
> 
> why can't a woman walk down a well lit pavement at night without being kidnapped and killed?
> 
> I doubt many men quite understand the fear, frustration and sheer anger of women at the moment after the death of the young woman.
> 
> the government is bringing in a new Bill covering sentencing for crimes, mentions of increased sentences for damaging statues and demonatrating. NOT ONE WORD ABOUT PROTECTING WOMEN. No increased sentences for domestic violence, no guidelines to help get rape cases to court, nothing for women at all.
> This last week started with International Women's Day and ended with Mother's Day, the week in between was pants.



I think there are two dynamics at work here in regards to violence against women.  First, there are the psychos who enjoy murder, pain and control, and get a sick sexual high off it.  In this category the victim's gender may not be as important.  Many vulnerable young men and boys are at risk here as well.  Vulnerable, weaker targets are the main issue, so females and young males both are potential targets.

The second dynamic is the male sexual aggression inherent in most of the higher species.  While the female often gives some signals, it is usually the male that pursues and takes action.  Humanoids have been around for a million years, but I suspect consensual dating and foreplay is a fairly recent invention (maybe 20,000 years?  less?) coming with what we call civilization and the accompanying rules of accepted conduct needed in dense settled populations to insure mutual benefit.

These rules must be learned by example and be respected.  Unfortunately, many men are not exposed to good examples and/or do not respect the rules.  Respect of rules must be enforced, and male role models must set a good example.  To me it seems today's society is lax in both of these.  Respect looks like it's becoming a lost art and family structure is also becoming a relic.  (gangs often serve as a substitute family - a good dojo can be a better one)

Those I described in the first dynamic must be found and culled out.  Those in the second category may have a chance at redemption if identified early enough.  And if not this generation, maybe our society can get some common sense and teach respect and foster strong family units by the next generation. 

In the meantime, we all have to do what we can to make it as hard as possible to not BE victims thru education, situational awareness and MA.  For those who can not do this, it is upon us who CAN to step in with word or deed to aid when possible.  The great "Bushi" Matsumura Soken listed such responsibilities in his _7 Virtues of Bu_, one of the earliest known writings of Okinawan MA.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Because?
> 
> why can't women walk down a street in daytime without being catcalled, kerb crawled or have a man try to pick her up?
> 
> why can't a woman walk down a well lit pavement at night without being kidnapped and killed?
> 
> I doubt many men quite understand the fear, frustration and sheer anger of women at the moment after the death of the young woman.
> 
> the government is bringing in a new Bill covering sentencing for crimes, mentions of increased sentences for damaging statues and demonatrating. NOT ONE WORD ABOUT PROTECTING WOMEN. No increased sentences for domestic violence, no guidelines to help get rape cases to court, nothing for women at all.
> This last week started with International Women's Day and ended with Mother's Day, the week in between was pants.



Exactly. It is something you need to get on to and fix. Take these people to task for their unacceptable behaviour.

You should not let people kidnap and kill people. That kind of thing is pretty unacceptable.

I certainly don't catcall or harass or kidnap or kill women because I don't think that sort of behaviour is acceptable.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Exactly. It is something you need to get on to and fix. Take these people to task for their unacceptable behaviour.
> 
> You should not let people kidnap and kill people. That kind of thing is pretty unacceptable.
> 
> I certainly don't catcall or harass or kidnap or kill women because I don't think that sort of behaviour is acceptable.


I

Women have been calling out unacceptable behaviour forever. They report violence and sexual abuse but they are questioned, 'what were you wearing, why were you out at night, were you drinking alcohol. Woman are still not being believed. Catcalling on the street is unacceptable, but men think it's their right to do it, their right to put their hands in a woman because 'why would she dress 'sexy' if she didn't want it '? Attitudes need to change.

This behaviour will not stop until other men call the abuse out, until they stop those men making lewd comments, until they stop the locker room talk,until they stop other men catcalling , until they talk to their sons about respect. Many men are shocked when women tell them what it's like but don't understand what they can do to stop it, their response is 'not all men'. No it's not all men but all men can actively look to stamping out unacceptable behaviours.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I
> 
> Women have been calling out unacceptable behaviour forever. They report violence and sexual abuse but they are questioned, 'what were you wearing, why were you out at night, were you drinking alcohol. Woman are still not being believed. Catcalling on the street is unacceptable, but men think it's their right to do it, their right to put their hands in a woman because 'why would she dress 'sexy' if she didn't want it '? Attitudes need to change.
> 
> This behaviour will not stop until other men call the abuse out, until they stop those men making lewd comments, until they stop the locker room talk,until they stop other men catcalling , until they talk to their sons about respect. Many men are shocked when women tell them what it's like but don't understand what they can do to stop it, their response is 'not all men'. No it's not all men but all men can actively look to stamping out unacceptable behaviours.



You discount men as victims of violence. So that they don't receive the recognition and support they need.

But also place an expectation on those same victims to fix your problems.

Why would that convince someone to help you out?

Why wouldn't you try to foster a sense of common cause rather than blaming men for lack of action?

I mean you couldn't get a more universally condemned act than kidnap an murder. You get support because that could happen to everyone. But instead you create this division. 

It is basically turning a yes in to a no.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> You discount men as victims of violence. So that they don't receive the recognition and support they need.
> 
> But also place an expectation on those same victims to fix your problems.
> 
> Why would that convince someone to help you out?
> 
> Why wouldn't you try to foster a sense of common cause rather than blaming men for lack of action?
> 
> I mean you couldn't get a more universally condemned act than kidnap an murder. You get support because that could happen to everyone. But instead you create this division.
> 
> It is basically turning a yes in to a no.



Sigh. I don't discount men as victims of crime, in my working life I've seen enough. Your whataboutism is strong here. 'women face harrassment, sexual abuse, sexual comments and touching everyday' and you cry 'what about men'. Abuse of women was brought up by a poster in light of the OP and the assault of women hence I am talking about women.




As a matter of fact the kidnap and murder of a woman isn't universally condemned, I've seen comments on social media saying it was her own fault as she shouldn't have been out at night on her own, why was she walking, she must have been looking to be picked up by a man. Yes really.

If you don't know why we are asking men to call out other men's wrong actions then there's nothing to discuss with you, carry on with your whataboutism.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Sigh. I don't discount men as victims of crime, in my working life I've seen enough. Your whataboutism is strong here. 'women face harrassment, sexual abuse, sexual comments and touching everyday' and you cry 'what about men'. Abuse of women was brought up by a poster in light of the OP and the assault of women hence I am talking about women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact the kidnap and murder of a woman isn't universally condemned, I've seen comments on social media saying it was her own fault as she shouldn't have been out at night on her own, why was she walking, she must have been looking to be picked up by a man. Yes really.
> 
> If you don't know why we are asking men to call out other men's wrong actions then there's nothing to discuss with you, carry on with your whataboutism.



No you made it about men when you made them responsible.

So let's keep it about women and what they can do to prevent attacks.

I am more than happy to let women get on with providing for their own safety if they choose that option.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> No you made it about men when you made them responsible.
> 
> So let's keep it about women and what they can do to prevent attacks.
> 
> I am more than happy to let women get on with providing for their own safety if they choose that option.




It's all a game to you on here, you just play your verbal sparring tricks trying to wind people up, another word for that is trolling. I'm not playing, anything you say is just so you can argue with someone. It could be fun if this wasn't serious and you didn't say the same things whatever the subject everytime.


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## Buka

It starts with fathers teaching their male children to be gentlemen. Teaching them what respect is.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> It's all a game to you on here, you just play your verbal sparring tricks trying to wind people up, another word for that is trolling. I'm not playing, anything you say is just so you can argue with someone. It could be fun if this wasn't serious and you didn't say the same things whatever the subject everytime.



Of course you are serious. But that doesn't make your argument right. 

See I have heard this argument before. Kind of around 9 11. When plenty of very serious people suggested that moderate Muslims were some how linked to terrorist Muslims by their religion. And even though it is mostly not the case. The argument that most terrorists were Muslim so Muslims must be terrorists was very convincing for a lot of people. 

Which then has this radicalisation effect that creates more terrorists.

Average Joe who is suddenly perceived as evil Average Joe. Isn't as inclined to help out. 

What this does do is increase a biased perception of threat. When you allude to the idea that all men are rapists or that rape is inherently a man thing or moderate men should do more to combat extremist men. And Don talk about men victims because this isn't about men. 

Not surprisingly you get the sort of push back you get. 

Which means you can say you were right. Men don't care about violence. And you can create more of a perceived threat. 

(And then at this point some special intrest group is sitting there with their hands out. But that is another issue)

It is only when you are not serious. When you can use humor or trolling to see the cracks in these arguments that you can create enough introspection to see these issues more clearly. 

This is a human rights issue. Not a special intrest issue.


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## drop bear

Buka said:


> It starts with fathers teaching their male children to be gentlemen. Teaching them what respect is.



Not really. It starts at the moment with making life harder for violence or kidnapping or sexual misconduct to occur.

Because that will have an effect a lot quicker and is a lot more reliable.

Imagine what sort of effect a free taxi service would have for example.


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## Buka

drop bear said:


> Not really. It starts at the moment with making life harder for violence or kidnapping or sexual misconduct to occur.
> 
> Because that will have an effect a lot quicker and is a lot more reliable.
> 
> Imagine what sort of effect a free taxi service would have for example.



I disagree. If young men were raised with more discipline and the learning of respect, a great deal of those things would not occur in the first place.


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## drop bear

Buka said:


> I disagree. If young men were raised with more discipline and the learning of respect, a great deal of those things would not occur in the first place.



So we wait a couple of generations?


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## Buka

drop bear said:


> So we wait a couple of generations?



No need to wait generations.


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## dvcochran

Buka said:


> I disagree. If young men were raised with more discipline and the learning of respect, a great deal of those things would not occur in the first place.


I agree Buka, but it takes a corporate solution. It starts at home definitely, but if the home culture is up to par should not societies/governments be as well? By virtue of osmosis if nothing else. In other words, there is nothing with stiffer penalties for crimes and a working system to support it.


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## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> Not really. It starts at the moment with making life harder for violence or kidnapping or sexual misconduct to occur.
> 
> Because that will have an effect a lot quicker and is a lot more reliable.
> 
> Imagine what sort of effect a free taxi service would have for example.


Now you are making this a chicken or the egg argument. It takes people of character and moral integrity being in leadership and politics to facilitate the changes you mention. Where do you think these people come from? How did they become the person to facilitate change? I don't think it was because there first thoughts of character and morality was 'because I don't want to go to jail'.


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## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> Now you are making this a chicken or the egg argument. It takes people of character and moral integrity being in leadership and politics to facilitate the changes you mention. Where do you think these people come from? How did they become the person to facilitate change? I don't think it was because there first thoughts of character and morality was 'because I don't want to go to jail'.



I think it would take to long to work. And I think the issue should be addressed now in a more practical way. So that women are safer.


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## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> I think it would take to long to work. And I think the issue should be addressed now in a more practical way. So that women are safer.


Carnal people will make carnal leaders. How would that make women safer?


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you assume that men enjoy to be abused by women?


John, where exactly did that poster say anything even remotely like that??


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> John, where exactly did that poster say anything even remotely like that??


Some men may enjoy to be tortured by women.

Please notice that I use "some" and "may" here.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some men may enjoy to be tortured by women.
> 
> Please notice that I use "some" and "may" here.


That’s not terribly relevant to the post you made.


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> That’s not terribly relevant to the post you made.


I asked the question. How will someone answer that question will not be under my control.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I asked the question. How will someone answer that question will not be under my control.


I don’t think it was an honest question.


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## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some men may enjoy to be tortured by women.
> 
> Please notice that I use "some" and "may" here.




That is a terribly stupid statement. Men and women don't enjoy being tortured, no one does. If you are talking about certain sexual practices, it isn't torture. You probably should read up on it, it's very much about permissions and respect.


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## punisher73

Good men don't need rules-Dr. Who


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