# I can"t believe this



## rachel (Mar 3, 2004)

One of the women in my school, actually one of my best friends is going to talk to our instructor when he comes back from vacation to tell him we should be wearing arm guards when we practice our 8 basic blocks. She got a bruise on her arm the size of a quarter and she's a little upset. I told her to suck it up. I said if someone attacks you on the street you won't be wearing arm guards and she got pissed and said that you don't need to jump in front of a car to know what it feels like so we shouldn't have to get bruises to learn. She thinks all schools wear forearm protectors because she knows one school that does. I need your help here. Tell her it's not like that in most schools and that one bruise isn't the end of the world so I can copy your replies and read them to her. Thanks.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 3, 2004)

I've trained in oh, 6 or so different schools...never wore forearm guards in any of em.

Only time I wore arm protection was when I was doing full contact stick fighting.
If -she- wants to wear it, that should be fine, provided its the soft padding, not the hard padding.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 3, 2004)

My students are not allowed to wear arm or leg protection unless they have an injury bad wenough to have warrented a doctor.
She should learn to live with it. 
Some schools let the student decide if they need the extra protection its really up to the insteuctor. Heck some schools have you look like your in full armor when practiceing. YEP, you really learn what its like wearing all that padding all the time.
Oh and don't break a fingernail either. :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

rachel said:
			
		

> One of the women in my school, actually one of my best friends is going to talk to our instructor when he comes back from vacation to tell him we should be wearing arm guards when we practice our 8 basic blocks. She got a bruise on her arm the size of a quarter and she's a little upset. I told her to suck it up. I said if someone attacks you on the street you won't be wearing arm guards and she got pissed and said that you don't need to jump in front of a car to know what it feels like so we shouldn't have to get bruises to learn. She thinks all schools wear forearm protectors because she knows one school that does. I need your help here. Tell her it's not like that in most schools and that one bruise isn't the end of the world so I can copy your replies and read them to her. Thanks.




Rachel, actually (IMHO) both of you have good points.   While you are absolutely correct, there is something said about durability and conditioning yourself for a little abuse.... also, many have differing pain thresholds.  I can show you my shins sometime (before the days of shinpads & other protective gear ~ [I eventually used forearm pads to help keep from injury]), and you will be appalled at the damage sustained when I was younger.   Today with all the protective gear, I tell all my students to wear what they need/want to avoid injury, since we now can spar or train numerous times per week ~ unlike the early days of once a week sparring - then heal for 6 days!!

If you train hard, the pads do help quite a bit.......  however, there are drills ......... like the "3-star hit" and many other body conditioning drills that do help to condition you for "real" impact.   Keep in mind however, that on the street adrenalin will be flowing much more readily than in practice and you chance NOT to feel injury instantly (later you can lick your painful wounds) and be able to defend yourself at the time and get away to safety.

Just my opinion... 
 :asian:


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## KenpoTess (Mar 3, 2004)

One thing we tell every new college class we teach.. this is a CONTACT Art.. You WILL most Likely get a bruise or so..The females in 5 yrs haven't given us any concerns re: bruising. 
 In our own bunch.. we compare bruises.. par for the course.. If she has some deep seated issue with bruises.. then I would say as an instructor.. if you wish to purchase and wear forearm guards.. by all means.. do so.. Could be a health issue.. if someone bruises really easily.. Many different reasons.. Anemia is by far the main health reason.. but many more conditions can cause bruising.. 
I would just let it go Rachel.. and do your best..  There's always a hidden reason behind people who seemingly over-react 

Tess


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 3, 2004)

Bruises?!My god! She must be talking about a teakwondo school!Those people wear them,but it's only sport.She should try some JKD training,she'd come running back with her tail between her knees!


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## michaeledward (Mar 3, 2004)

OK ... I have to do this. 

You see, my wife bruises very easily. And when we started training, she always had banged up arms and legs. It seems that as our training has progressed, she bruises quite a bit less now. I don't think we are working out less forcefully, but there is definately a change.

I, on the other hand, don't think I have ever had a bruise from working out in our normal classes.

Any how, a year or so ago, we went to a seminar with 'Huk'. We were working on some technique ... Twisted Lance ... Glancing Lance ... bang the $H!T out of my ribs lance ...you know, something like that. When we got home, and I showed Sheryl what she had done to me ... she had to take a picture.

Yeah ... Don't be stupid about training without gear when needed, but then again ... Bruises happen.  Submitted for you enjoyment ( and my wifes ).


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## Seig (Mar 3, 2004)

If she wants to wear pads fine.  But she has no right to demand everyone wear them.


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 3, 2004)

HEY! I take TKD. Be quiet, Gary, SHHHH!!! THAT'S DISCRIMINATION IN MARTIAL ARTS!!!!...lol...so, watch it, buddy, will ya?...j/k around...

I only wear head gear, foot gear, cup, and hand gear. I bought shin guards a long time back, but we don't use them, and I never used them. THe chest protectors we don't even use, though we will need to buy them for stupid, political reasons in June. But, we get bruises all the time and no one complains...And I don't believe in forearm guards, though some may need them, I don't because I want my forearms and shins to be armor, along with my abdominals; alot more than that, too.


Anyways, I think it all goes along with the one thing that I've seen with alot of people. Certain people only adapt to certain MA. I mean, I know alot of people taking TKD and they have a super hard time with the brutal strikes in Black belt, and also even the Flexibility. And alot of people, TKD isn't even their style. I mean, there are just certain things that qualify you for certain arts. I, myself, have found that I can adapt to almost any art. I mean, sure I'm not going to be as good in Judo as a short guy, but maybe it has to do with my age(17) and my abilities. 

Some people don't like bruises and getting hurt, but some just can't have that all the time when they have to work 5 days a week. Yeah, buck up and all that, but they do need to be able to focus at work and not on bumping their bruise or focusing out their pain. And I know alot of people that get nasty bruises in the style I take and they don't go away for 2-3 months! So, yeah, we who are easily adapted and all may say, "WIMP!", but I also see that not everybody has their focus totally on MA. I have a lot of my focus on MA. But those that are going to complain because they don't want to put up with the pain for a week and then once it goes away, they have to put up with it again.

And Tess, You changed your pic...cool, new look...


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## Ceicei (Mar 3, 2004)

At our school, we leave it up to the individual students.  For sparring, we are required to wear hand/foot/head gear.  Beyond that, it's optional.  Some don't wear any extra padding, some wear shin guards, some wear arm guards, and some also add on chest protectors.

It depends on the pain threshhold, intensity of sparring, and how hard a specific partner may strike.  It also depends on the health of the individual.

- Ceicei


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## Shodan (Mar 3, 2004)

I agree with several statements already made here.  None of the schools I have been in have ever used arm guards/pads as a mandatory thing for basics practice but it has always been up to the individual.........not something that was imposed on everyone.  If she wants to wear them and feels it necessary, then she should!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 4, 2004)

rachel said:
			
		

> One of the women in my school, actually one of my best friends is going to talk to our instructor when he comes back from vacation to tell him we should be wearing arm guards when we practice our 8 basic blocks. She got a bruise on her arm the size of a quarter and she's a little upset. I told her to suck it up. I said if someone attacks you on the street you won't be wearing arm guards and she got pissed and said that you don't need to jump in front of a car to know what it feels like so we shouldn't have to get bruises to learn. She thinks all schools wear forearm protectors because she knows one school that does. I need your help here. Tell her it's not like that in most schools and that one bruise isn't the end of the world so I can copy your replies and read them to her. Thanks.


Rachel,
Well your both right and your both wrong. You already know why she is wrong; so, I won't reinforce that. Lets focus on where you might be missing her point. Rachel, I can punch through any block you have. So can a lot of people. I will sustain injury to my arm, but you are going down. I am not saying this to discourage you; I am trying to tell you your freind isn't crazy. Yes, she needs a bit of conditioning, but she can learn structural integrity with pads, or being hit with padded objects. There is no reason to punish her into quitting with self defense drills that she knows in her heart she will never be able to use. Force against force will probably never be her thing. Does that mean she should quit? Absolutly not; because there is a whole world of martial knowledge that can be imparted to her that might help her avoid meeting force with force. "Five Swords" isn't about blocking haymakers, its about getting on the inside of a haymaker and away from the force. Missle attack techs arent about standing off punches with your blocks while standing in the line of fire, they are about stepping off the line of attack and using the block as a margin for possible error. All I'm trying to say is that perhaps you could stand a reality check yourself. I wouldn't recomend this, but you could test my theory by telling everyone to only throw the best attacks they can muster at you from now on. :asian: 
Sean


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## Zoran (Mar 4, 2004)

My wife hates bruises, and bruises very easily. I've told her that the school does allow the use of arm pads and such when needed. I got *the look*, for that suggestion. :erg: Of course I expected as much before I said it.  

As to the merits of using one or not, that is up to each school owner. There are good arguments for both sides. When I met my wife, she was a model. Bruising would not have been an option then as it would have hindered her work. Now that she is a AVP of Business Banking, it isn't so important. They just think I beat her.


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## Tony (Mar 4, 2004)

rachel said:
			
		

> One of the women in my school, actually one of my best friends is going to talk to our instructor when he comes back from vacation to tell him we should be wearing arm guards when we practice our 8 basic blocks. She got a bruise on her arm the size of a quarter and she's a little upset. I told her to suck it up. I said if someone attacks you on the street you won't be wearing arm guards and she got pissed and said that you don't need to jump in front of a car to know what it feels like so we shouldn't have to get bruises to learn. She thinks all schools wear forearm protectors because she knows one school that does. I need your help here. Tell her it's not like that in most schools and that one bruise isn't the end of the world so I can copy your replies and read them to her. Thanks.



Well you're right about what you said to her! In a real confrontatiion she will have more to worry about than a little bruise or two! I was sparring with this female and she accidentally caught her leg on my toe but she had received that injury in another sparring match. It wasn't wise for her to keep sparring like that but good for her that she kept on going! I was brought up to be a gentleman and asker if she was alright, and if she wanted to continue and she did! Either your friend is not used to getting hurt or she doesn't like getting hurt! but if they are some underlying issues allow her the forearm protectors while you and everyone else will have none.  But I'm sure your instructor will know what to do! But most schools do make allowances for women such as letting them do push ups on their knees to begin with. In my view if she has her forearms protected to perform blocks she is only cheating herself. Its better to have a couple of bruises and even a bloody nose than no life at all!


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## 8253 (Mar 4, 2004)

When sparring if blood is not drawn, then your not doing it right.  Then you have to do it over again.  Then again, its not really like sparring in our classes, its more like an actual fight.  No punches pulled, No quarter given.  You learn to take hits before you learn how to hit.


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## rachel (Mar 4, 2004)

Thank you everyone for your input. I agree that she should be allowed to wear arm guards if she likes but we're talking about the 8 basic blocks performed on each other and 1 bruise. I'm far from unfeeling. This is a friend who constantly critisizes our instructor behind his back saying that she can run his business better and tries to trick the other instructors into teaching her new techniques that our instructor does not want us to learn yet. She goes behind his back at every chance she gets to break the rules of the Dojo and it's getting a little annoying.


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## Tony (Mar 4, 2004)

rachel said:
			
		

> Thank you everyone for your input. I agree that she should be allowed to wear arm guards if she likes but we're talking about the 8 basic blocks performed on each other and 1 bruise. I'm far from unfeeling. This is a friend who constantly critisizes our instructor behind his back saying that she can run his business better and tries to trick the other instructors into teaching her new techniques that our instructor does not want us to learn yet. She goes behind his back at every chance she gets to break the rules of the Dojo and it's getting a little annoying.



I don't think your friend realises how hard it is to be an instructor! To run it as a business but teaching to the best of his or her abililties so that each student gets the best out what they are learning! If your friend doesn't like the class or the instructor, then why is she there? And have you talked to her about her behaviour? I know she is your friend but doesn't seem to me to be respecting the Art! There is a good reason why your instructor hasn't shown you these other techniques yet. Because she has not learned any humility she is a danger to herself and other people if she can't be responsible!
Please forgive me, I don't want to offend but she still has a lot to learn!


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 4, 2004)

Well, what belt is she? And how old? That could determine the outcome of what we think...


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## KenpoTess (Mar 4, 2004)

This bruise of mine lasted a good month.. and still is somewhat discolored just under the skin.. Got it during sparring.. *shrugs*
I wear forearm & elbow pads along with my reg. gear.. my cohorts laugh at me and call me an armadillo 
guess I shoulda worn upper arm pads. . But hey.. bruises are part of the program for some of us..


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## jeffkyle (Mar 4, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> This bruise of mine lasted a good month.. and still is somewhat discolored just under the skin.. Got it during sparring.. *shrugs*
> I wear forearm & elbow pads along with my reg. gear.. my cohorts laugh at me and call me an armadillo
> guess I shoulda worn upper arm pads. . But hey.. bruises are part of the program for some of us..




Hey Tess!!!

Nice Signature/Statement!!!


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## KenpoTess (Mar 4, 2004)

Hey Jeff 

Yeah says it all eh ~!!!


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

I can see why you are upset about this. But, for some people a small mark like that is the end of the world. You bring up a valid point but I dont think you can change some peoples minds about certain things. Hopefully, in time they will see that you are rite in what you were trying to tell her before.

Talking to some people is like talking to a wall. But if you chip away at the wall in the proper maner you can tear it down in due time.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				rachel said:
			
		

> One of the women in my school, actually one of my best friends is going to talk to our instructor when he comes back from vacation to tell him we should be wearing arm guards when we practice our 8 basic blocks. She got a bruise on her arm the size of a quarter and she's a little upset. I told her to suck it up. I said if someone attacks you on the street you won't be wearing arm guards and she got pissed and said that you don't need to jump in front of a car to know what it feels like so we shouldn't have to get bruises to learn. She thinks all schools wear forearm protectors because she knows one school that does. I need your help here. Tell her it's not like that in most schools and that one bruise isn't the end of the world so I can copy your replies and read them to her. Thanks.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

Hey Tess nice shiner. wow

sometimes bruises happen.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				KenpoTess said:
			
		

> This bruise of mine lasted a good month.. and still is somewhat discolored just under the skin.. Got it during sparring.. *shrugs*
> I wear forearm & elbow pads along with my reg. gear.. my cohorts laugh at me and call me an armadillo
> guess I shoulda worn upper arm pads. . But hey.. bruises are part of the program for some of us..


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## RCastillo (Mar 4, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Rachel, actually (IMHO) both of you have good points.   While you are absolutely correct, there is something said about durability and conditioning yourself for a little abuse.... also, many have differing pain thresholds.  I can show you my shins sometime (before the days of shinpads & other protective gear ~ [I eventually used forearm pads to help keep from injury]), and you will be appalled at the damage sustained when I was younger.   Today with all the protective gear, I tell all my students to wear what they need/want to avoid injury, since we now can spar or train numerous times per week ~ unlike the early days of once a week sparring - then heal for 6 days!!
> 
> If you train hard, the pads do help quite a bit.......  however, there are drills ......... like the "3-star hit" and many other body conditioning drills that do help to condition you for "real" impact.   Keep in mind however, that on the street adrenalin will be flowing much more readily than in practice and you chance NOT to feel injury instantly (later you can lick your painful wounds) and be able to defend yourself at the time and get away to safety.
> 
> ...



You calling me a wimp?


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## RCastillo (Mar 4, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> This bruise of mine lasted a good month.. and still is somewhat discolored just under the skin.. Got it during sparring.. *shrugs*
> I wear forearm & elbow pads along with my reg. gear.. my cohorts laugh at me and call me an armadillo
> guess I shoulda worn upper arm pads. . But hey.. bruises are part of the program for some of us..



She's just trying to intimidate you with her "Big Guns."


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## psi_radar (Mar 4, 2004)

It's her option to wear pads or not, but she shouldn't try and dictate what kinds of safety equipment the students are required to wear--that's up to the instructor. At our school we were required to use more safety gear at lower belt levels, but black belts can wear as much or as little as they would like. I typically wear none except for a cup and maybe a mouthpiece when I remember it. Sparring's different, the hand/foot padding protects your opponent as well.

Like you said, she should know how to handle contact, or at least be learning to. If she spends all her training all padded up, she's going to have less of a chance of success when that first bolt of pain rips her concentration in a real fight. Some arts really emphasize contact conditioning--in Systema a good portion of class is devoted to taking hits. After a recent seminar my entire torso looked like drunken dwarves were using it for a dance floor--black and blue, then yellow for two weeks. We're involved in a contact activity and you just have to be able to *heh* roll with the punches. 

One question GoldenDragon7--

"however, there are drills ......... like the "3-star hit" and many other body conditioning drills that do help to condition you for "real" impact." 

Would you describe the "3-star hit?" 

thanks!


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 4, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> This bruise of mine lasted a good month.. and still is somewhat discolored just under the skin..



*OUCHHHH'ies*

 %-}


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 4, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> HEY! I take TKD. Be quiet, Gary, SHHHH!!! THAT'S DISCRIMINATION IN MARTIAL ARTS!!!!...lol...so, watch it, buddy, will ya?...j/k around...
> 
> I only wear head gear, foot gear, cup, and hand gear. I bought shin guards a long time back, but we don't use them, and I never used them. THe chest protectors we don't even use, though we will need to buy them for stupid, political reasons in June. But, we get bruises all the time and no one complains...And I don't believe in forearm guards, though some may need them, I don't because I want my forearms and shins to be armor, along with my abdominals; alot more than that, too.
> 
> ...


Sorry! no disrespect intended..USTU folks do wear them in tournaments,that's the rules.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 4, 2004)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> One question GoldenDragon7--
> 
> "however, there are drills ......... like the "3-star hit" and many other body conditioning drills that do help to condition you for "real" impact."
> 
> Would you describe the "3-star hit?"    thanks!



Ed Parker's "Secrets of Chinese Karate... Chapter 6 pps., 46-49...... :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 4, 2004)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> We're involved in a contact activity and you just have to be able to condition for the contact.
> One question GoldenDragon7--
> "There are drills ......... like arm/body conditioning drills that do help to condition you for "real" impact."



Also found in Ed Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate Volume 6, pps., 50-51 
:asian:


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## Chronuss (Mar 4, 2004)

..so is that what it's called...Randy and I do that at times...freaks the people out in the Shepherd class..


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## KenpoTess (Mar 4, 2004)

Chicago Green Dragon said:
			
		

> Hey Tess nice shiner. wow
> 
> sometimes bruises happen.
> 
> ...




Hahaa.. yeah that they do.. I've had some good ones in my day.. I think that particular one was the  results from some newbie using my arm as a target during sparring..


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## psi_radar (Mar 5, 2004)

Thanks Goldendragon7! We do those drills but never put a name to them before (though the one using the barbell is a new one on me).   :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2004)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> Thanks Goldendragon7! We do those drills but never put a name to them before (though the one using the barbell is a new one on me).   :asian:



These are not new drills..... (over 40 years old actually) and some consider a litte old fashioned but they are effective to help condition the arms.  Glad to be of some help.

:asian:


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## ellaminnowpea (Mar 5, 2004)

rachel said:
			
		

> One of the women in my school, actually one of my best friends is going to talk to our instructor when he comes back from vacation to tell him we should be wearing arm guards when we practice our 8 basic blocks. She got a bruise on her arm the size of a quarter and she's a little upset. I told her to suck it up. I said if someone attacks you on the street you won't be wearing arm guards and she got pissed and said that you don't need to jump in front of a car to know what it feels like so we shouldn't have to get bruises to learn. She thinks all schools wear forearm protectors because she knows one school that does. I need your help here. Tell her it's not like that in most schools and that one bruise isn't the end of the world so I can copy your replies and read them to her. Thanks.




What are these arm guards you speak of, human?  

But seriously.  A quarter sized bruise..Not to make light (but I'm going to anyway) , but is she kidding?  This isn't basket weaving.  A bruise?  Geez.  I've bruise myself trying to get from my bed to the bathroom in the dark. 

Time and conditioning will take care of the bruising.  I bruise like a rotten apple. Well, I used to.  Nowadays it takes much more to bruise me.  I believe she's over-reacting just a little bit. 

Please, none of this is meant as unkindness..Just my two cents.


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 5, 2004)

No offense taken, Gary. I just meant everybody takes TKD as a joke. I'm used to it, that's why I wrote LOL several times.


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## Pacificshore (Mar 8, 2004)

Back in my earlier days of training, we had a saying..."pain is joy".  We'd do conditioning drills like banging our forearms and wrists against each others, inevitably increasing the speed and power on contact.  Hurt like a mother, it did condition the arms by deadening the nerves, but it also made our arms look like hamburger.  It also conditioned our brains to accept pain, and to block it out of our head, but it also slowed  our training down because afterall we would eventually feel the stinging contact after contact during regular training.  Now with the advent of protective pads, to each it's own.  Their personal safety is their own concern.  If the person does not want to feel any pain, or the wind knocked out of them from time to time, then they will be in for a rude awakening when it happens, but hey that's their choice.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 16, 2004)

I dropped out for a spell to pursue career and family stuff, and just recently strated back up. It appears I've been out at least long enough for nerves to grow back that had been deadened to pain from the middle seventies. Darn, re-conditioning hurts. Plus, I'm older, so the resiliency of youth and testosterone (no brain, no pain) things aren't working for me anymore.

Still, I'm a personal believer in the school of hard knocks. Any of you ever watch one of Tak Kubota's breaking demos? Or get a look at the guys knuckles? Seen/felt the knuckles of Mas Oyama at a kyokushinkai convnetion? (rumor had it they got so big, he had to have them surgically reduced to be able to open his hand...don't know if there's truth to it.).

Wolffs Law: Bone will build up to adapt to the stresses placed on it. Murphy's Law: The arthritis I'm feeling with age, and the pain I'm going through trying to deaden hands, feet, forearms and legs.

Temper natural weapons so that, when you hit the other guy, he feels it, not you. Had a sadist for a sensei in Hawaii as a kid...did the "ten-thousand prayers"...strike a makiwara 1,000 times, interchanging hands, with 10 strikes (reverse punch, inward and outward chop, backfist, hammerfist, palm heel, etc.). Hated it. Still broke my thumbs clipping them on gi's in tournaments (before Saf-T-Chop), but never did hurt my hand in a fight. 

Argument against: still can't thread a needle, and am killing my kidneys with a couple thousand mg's of ibuprofen a day to ward off the joint and bone pain.

Oh well. We must each make a choice, and live with the results.

Dr. Dave


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