# What is a Master of Tapi-Tapi



## Rich Parsons (Jun 15, 2006)

I know who they are, and for those who do not they can check this site: http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml

Once again I would like to discuss what the title is and the expectations and how they effect Modern Arnis. This is not about anyone personal.

Thank you


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## Rocky (Jun 16, 2006)

I am sure my opinon of a Slappy Happy Master would get me kicked off this digest........



So If you got nothing good to say.......



Rocky


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 16, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I know who they are, and for those who do not they can check this site: http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml
> 
> Once again I would like to discuss what the title is and the expectations and how they effect Modern Arnis. This is not about anyone personal.
> 
> Thank you


 
Help me out here: I thought tapi-tapi was either a rice pudding, or piece of Samoan habidashery. Do you have any descriptions of what tapi-tapi is, that one might better understand what a master of it has accomplished?

Regards,

Dave


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## Phadrus00 (Jun 16, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Help me out here: I thought tapi-tapi was either a rice pudding, or piece of Samoan habidashery. Do you have any descriptions of what tapi-tapi is, that one might better understand what a master of it has accomplished?


 
I believe it is a term that has several different contextual meanings.  I have pulled one out here from Wikipedia in the Modern Arnis entry (Rich please feel free to correct me on this from a Modern Arnis perspective):



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Training covers empty-hand self-defense (striking, locking, throwing, etc.) as well as the trademark single and double stick techniques of the Filipino martial arts. Other aspects of the art include _espada y daga_ (sword and dagger fighting), _sinawali_ (double stick weaving patterns), and _tapi-tapi_ (locking drills with the stick). In addition to partner drills, Modern Arnis includes the use of _anyos_ (kata), solo forms both with and without the stick. Emphasis is placed on fitting the art in with a student's previous training ("the art within your art"), smoothly reacting to changing situations in the fight ("the flow"), and *countering the opponent's attempt to counter strikes directed at him ("tapi-tapi").* Practitioners are called arnisadors or Modern Arnis players.


 
I looked up Tapi Tapi in Grandmaster Dionisio Canate's "Espada y Daga" book (it has a whole section!  *grin*) and he defines it as:


			
				Grandmaster Dionisio Canate said:
			
		

> Another aspect in the Doce Pares system that makes it different from the others aside from it's being an asemblage of various styles of Eskrima is it's highly specialized form of the "alive hand".
> 
> *Popularly known as "tapi-tapi" the name has it's roots from the word "tapi" which means "to tap, punch or touch".  In applying it as a technique, it means "to oppose, meet or contain the attacking force for the purpose of stopping, monitoring, neutralizing and/or reversing the same".*  It is also commonly called as "sticky hand" or a "check" for short.


 
Tapi-Tapi in the generic sense is about countering the opponents attacks with your "alive hand" and controlling his options.  

Rob


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 16, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Help me out here: I thought tapi-tapi was either a rice pudding, or piece of Samoan habidashery. Do you have any descriptions of what tapi-tapi is, that one might better understand what a master of it has accomplished?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave



Dave,

Please check this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11067, as it has a list of other threads including some on Tapi-Tapi in relationship for Drill work etcetera.

Yet, from how I have seen it used by those who have the title (* No disresepct meant *), it seems to represent more then just a drill. 

Hence my question on the title. 

:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 16, 2006)

Phadrus00 said:
			
		

> I believe it is a term that has several different contextual meanings. I have pulled one out here from Wikipedia in the Modern Arnis entry (Rich please feel free to correct me on this from a Modern Arnis perspective):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rob,

As to the Canete and Doces Pares I cannot speak in detail and will not in short. There are others on this site that could do so in another thread in the General FMA section (* Hint: Feel free to start a thread there  *) much better than I could.

As to the meaning, I would think one could search this site and the site I linked in first as well as the Tech thread I linked in the post before this one. 

Yet I think GM Remy meant the Master's of Tapi Tapi as more than a master of a drill. Just as a Datu in Modern Arnis cannot be a Spiritual Leader, but still could be a leader.


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## Phadrus00 (Jun 17, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Rob,
> 
> As to the Canete and Doces Pares I cannot speak in detail and will not in short. There are others on this site that could do so in another thread in the General FMA section (* Hint: Feel free to start a thread there  *) much better than I could.


 
Hehehehehe... Thanks Rich.. I may just do that!  It is actually a VERY interesting subject!



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> As to the meaning, I would think one could search this site and the site I linked in first as well as the Tech thread I linked in the post before this one.


 
Thank you!  I'll take a look!



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Yet I think GM Remy meant the Master's of Tapi Tapi as more than a master of a drill. Just as a Datu in Modern Arnis cannot be a Spiritual Leader, but still could be a leader.


 
I was muddling this as I wrote my first post.  It would seem that the "spirit" of Tapi-Tapi beyond the pure mechanics of inserting the "Alive Hand" is defening and countering your opponent simultaneously.  It is having the skill to not only block but to prevent the counter to that block which is much more comprehensive.  I find that teaching "checking" requires developing in the students the ability to deconstruct the initial flailing out of hands ("DON'T HIT ME!") and keep the "Alive Hand" in a neutral position and then Teaching how to move that now "Cognitive" hand to meet the opponents attack simultaneously with your defending move (stick block, empty hand block, etc.).

Now I normally think of my "Alive Hand" in the context of stick-work but as I reflect on it one could argue that any time you use two hands to defend against an attack you are using the same principles.  So when I strike the oppoents arm using gunting, or strike the ribs while sliping the cross, or cutting the arm while defending the blade or even parrying and checking the arm during knife-flow drills.  All of these techniques rely on being able to consciosly coordinate one hand with the other to reduce your opponents ability to attack you and counter your defence.

Perhaps Mastery of this Principle is what the title denotes..

Rob


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## monkey (Jun 17, 2006)

From what I have come up with on tapi tapi--


           Arnis Detranka was the art  & Remy was to release a 10 tape set.
           He resinded the set & this is where Delanys picks up from 11-15
            Tapi tapi. Now on the Detranka set had Left & right tapi tapi drills.
             It was not a compleat art just drills like figure 8 or  pity patty.

                  It has come to my attention from these people --they are under the impression that ==Tapi tapi was the heighest form of arnis.
                  I will not say who told me, but you can talk to tapitapi 
players & see if they confirm it to be thier understanding of the term of Tapi Tapi.


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 17, 2006)

I asked Remy one time after one of his summer camps when we should teach Tapi Tapi, and he told me from the begining.  Upon further questioning why, he told me that found within that drill series was all of the art.

So I have taken it that the MoTTs were masters or leaders of the art.

Which IMHO I believe that they have fullfilled that role, I think they are leaders in MA.  I mean I believe that they all are still teaching and promoting the art, they take part in teaching at seminars etc. etc. (within their organizations etc. etc.), so I believe they are leaders.  GM Remy bestowed the title on them and who should take it away from them.

However this is not to say that they are the best, most skilled, most gifted, inheirators of the art or anything.  I believe they are leaders and they know what they are talking about, and have skill in the Professor's later stages (and for some, early stages of MA devlopment).  There are other skilled MA players out there that are leaders in their own right in regards to MA as well (like the Datu's, his kids, the Masters in the PI etc. etc.).

So it's all good.

Mark


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 17, 2006)

According to the press release issued early September 2001, it is defined thusly:



> The second order of business was the declaration by Professor Presas for the award of Master of Tapi-Tapi, within the art of Modern Arnis. The following IMAF members (in alphabetical order) were recognized with this award: (1) Jeff Delaney, (2) Chuck Gauss, (3) Jim Ladis, (4) Gaby Roloff (Germany), (5) Randi Schea, M.D., (6) Ken Smith, (7) Brian Zawilinski.
> 
> In conjunction with this ceremony, several of the above named recipients were also promoted the award of Master rank having been promoted to 5th degree black belt status: (1) Jeff Delaney, (2) Chuck Gauss, (3) Gaby Roloff (Germany), (4) Ken Smith.
> 
> ...


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## monkey (Jun 17, 2006)

Mr Hubard  That was way cool;
I never knew that.I am glad to see such.
I was going off the Detranka set I clipped for you as that 
was new to me also.Here on 2 section only were tapi tapi & I
beleave I sent you clips.Here I  hope you see were it could be missleading & realy not explaining any more the for the 
Left & right side drills.
I dont mean any offence to the tapi tapi player.
I only wanted to know if it was as they say.
I thank you for confirming that.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2006)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> I asked Remy one time after one of his summer camps when we should teach Tapi Tapi, and he told me from the begining. Upon further questioning why, he told me that found within that drill series was all of the art.
> 
> So I have taken it that the MoTTs were masters or leaders of the art.
> 
> ...




Mark,

Thank you, this is the type of personal post I was hoping for. Now to get a few more. 

Thanks!


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> According to the press release issued early September 2001, it is defined thusly:




Now Bob,

Why did you have to bring history and docuemented press release into this. 

Seriously, this is also what  was kind of looking for. 

Thanks


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 17, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> According to the press release issued early September 2001, it is defined thusly:


 
Hey Bob, 

This was an IMAF press release correct? Who issued it Delaney or Schea?
Or was it issued by both? Was it written by the Professor before his death or by someone else after his passing?

These statments are interesting :

Professor Presas then proceeded to highlight and differentiate the status of Master of Tapi-Tapi versus rank. The Master of Tapi-Tapi as declared by Professor Presas, is for "recognition for having achieved the highest level of proficiency in the art of Modern Arnis" since its creation in 1957, and its introduction in 1975. These individuals have been recognized for their continued support, training, and their ability to pass on Modern Arnis in its current form, focus, and philosophy, as advocated by Professor Presas.

The Master of Tapi-Tapi recognition is separate from and above rank and represents proficiency status within the art of Modern Arnis. It is an achievement award to its recipients to ensure the longevity and legacy of Modern Arnis. It is a declaration of commitment by the recipients to continue to keep Modern Arnis open and active for its practitioners. It is an honor and responsibility of the highest level awarded by Professor Presas. 

I have always found it very interesting in the changing of titles within Modern Arnis. From Master, Senior Master, Datu and Master of Tapi Tapi.
I will say that everyone I have met at every level has been great!  It does not matter to me whether you are unranked, ranked, Master, Senior Master, Datu, Master of Tapi Tapi, it is always enjoyable to cross sticks with someone trained in Modern Arnis! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 24, 2006)

Sept. 2001.  This was after the Professor passed away, right?

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Guro Harold (Jun 24, 2006)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Sept. 2001. This was after the Professor passed away, right?
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


Should be around Nov 2000.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 24, 2006)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Should be around Nov 2000.


This was correct.

Please see this post from Datu Tim Hartman.

Bob, Its scary that you could remember the month and year when Tim posted this.

- Palusut


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 24, 2006)

So, we have a better definition of the last Title used my the Late GM Remy Presas. This title was better documented on the internet.

Thank you for those who replied here and for that might still reply.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Hey Bob,
> 
> This was an IMAF press release correct? Who issued it Delaney or Schea?
> Or was it issued by both? Was it written by the Professor before his death or by someone else after his passing?



Hi Brian,
  The original PR is quoted here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=308  Post #4 I believe.
The copy on Jeff's site went through several revisions afterwards.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2006)

Palusut said:
			
		

> This was correct.
> 
> Please see this post from Datu Tim Hartman.
> 
> ...


Some things are burned into ones brain....though I knew roughly the month, then played with the search function for a bit til I found it.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 24, 2006)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Should be around Nov 2000.



Remy died August 28, 2001.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2006)

Think he was referencing when the PR's came out.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 25, 2006)

Tim Hartman said:
			
		

> Remy died August 28, 2001.



Hi Mr Hartman,

Did you actually read this thread before you posted?

Also, we do have a handy "search" feature like I used to find posts as well.

Here are three threads to show that I know the date of GM Presas' passing:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16942&highlight=Remy+Presas
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15645&highlight=Remy+Presas
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26027&highlight=Remy+Presas

Though, I didn't know Remy as long as you, his passing did affect me deeply as well as. As a result, one of the little things I do as a mod is to make sure it remembered on this forum yearly.

Best regards,

Harold


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## James Miller (Jun 25, 2006)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Hi Mr Hartman,
> 
> Did you actually read this thread before you posted?
> 
> ...



I guess that's what happen when you quickly read a post at the end of a 18 hour day. We at HMA where spending most of the day getting read for an MMA seminar. We have just covered the floor with Judo mats and most of the day was spent getting them set up. I guess this isn't the first time someone has misread a thread due to haste and exhaustion.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 25, 2006)

James Miller said:
			
		

> I guess that's what happen when you quickly read a post at the end of a 18 hour day.


Hi James,

I did direct my reply directly at Mr. Hartman.

However, I would like to say that being tired or working too hard is not a valid excuse for an improper action. We are all individually accountable for our actions.

Best regards,

Harold


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 26, 2006)

From what i have read in this thread Tapi_Tapi is not only the ability to block and counter at the same time but also the ability to lock.takedown,etc at the same time as blocking or strikeing,  is this correct?
So the Masters of Tapi-Tapi are those promoted by Remy just befor his death that have the ability to do these things more often than not and teach these techniques as the major part of what they teach. correct or incorrect?


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## Cruentus (Jun 26, 2006)

I should probably avoid saying anything here because, well... I guess I just don't have a whole lot invested in the subject of Modern Arnis titles as I have in the past. But since I don't see anyone stating the obvious yet....

I think that we are left with the unfortunate circumstance that Professor Presas had no consistant standard when it came to giving people rank and titles. Also, the meaning of such titles or promotions were not consistant.

So, we are left with a grouping of titles, and a whole lot of practitioners trying to give meaning too them... meaning that was never entirely consistant in the first place.

Trying to give these titles meaning now, or trying to come up with some sort of consistancy in regards to these titles is really a slippery slope to fallacy; as these titles didn't have the same meaning from person to person.

What we have is titles that we can give blanket definitions for (Datu means "chiefton" or "leader," etc.); but as to their _meaning_, that is up to practitioners and the title holders themselves to make that decision on an individual basis. Each person had a special relationship to their teacher (Professor Presas in this case). A more accurate question would be to ask a Datu or Master of Tapi-Tapi what their title means to _them, _as this meaning will (and probably should given the circumstance) vary. Then, make your own decisions on an individual basis who is worth a grain of salt.

That, too me, is an obvious assessment on the question of any title in regards to Modern Arnis. I hope what I have said is not misconstrued or misinterpreted, as this is not a slight to anyone who has a title, or to my late teacher Professor Presas. These are just the facts, really.

Paul Janulis


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## HKphooey (Jun 26, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I should probably avoid saying anything here because, well... I guess I just don't have a whole lot invested in the subject of Modern Arnis titles as I have in the past. But since I don't see anyone stating the obvious yet....
> 
> I think that we are left with the unfortunate circumstance that Professor Presas had no consistant standard when it came to giving people rank and titles. Also, the meaning of such titles or promotions were not consistant.
> 
> ...


 
Well said.


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 26, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> 1) From what i have read in this thread Tapi_Tapi is not only the ability to block and counter at the same time but also the ability to lock.takedown,etc at the same time as blocking or strikeing, is this correct?
> 
> 2)So the Masters of Tapi-Tapi are those promoted by Remy just befor his death that have the ability to do these things more often than not and teach these techniques as the major part of what they teach. correct or incorrect?


 
shadowchaser
1) I tend to disagree here.  Tapi tapi in the forms and methods that I have been taught also is the ability to set the opponent up or to program how they will defend (staying one step a head of them), or to steal the drive away from the driver by switching the defense in mid stream and taking over.  It can be also baiting the person to set up a particular counter, or baiting the person to set up a lock or a take down.  Found within the drills are the majority of all of the different techniques, stratigies, concepts etc. etc. found within MA. 

When GM Remy use to cover these drills in the camps he would relate a core technique that we would practice outside of the drill and then translate it into a techniques that we would practice in the drill at various speeds.  It is a multi faceted type of drill in which different people play or practice differently and to which it means different things.

2) Your statement here I agree with.

Again not saying that anyone is best here or anything.  But I have had the chance to see various instructors teach Tapi tapi over the years since the Professor's passing.  (Or similar drills such as the 6 count drills, Sumbrada type patterns, Hubud etc. etc.)  The MoTTs have been the ones that taught at the time closest to the way I saw the Professor teach the drills.  Others have taught other techniques, concepts etc. etc. and they were great (They expanded my Tapi Tapi view greatly and helped me think outside of the box so to speak) but the MoTTs did teach it as the Professor taught us.

One time at the Houston summer camp I think in 99 or 2000 we had black belt teaching time and we were covering TT.  We were off in a little side room from the main group.  I can remember Chuck Gnauss (?) and I'm pretty sure Ken Smith really getting after it stealing the drive and free flowing with the drill.  So much so I think we all stopped and just watched them get after it including the Proffessor, you could see the pride on his face as he watched them.  "VERY GOOD!"  Made us all want to train harder.

2002 at the Houston camp (the last one I attended with Dr. Schea's group) I worked some with TJ (DJ?) anyway he kicked my *** playing TT, first person I felt totally inadaquate playing TT with (other than the instructors).  He had really improved under Dr. Schea's guidence from the years before.

Submitted with respect
Mark


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 30, 2006)

Harold-
Seeing that you addressed your post towards me let me respond. I did read the post, but at time I misread it do to a condition I have, Dyslexia. If you dont know what that is see the following:

*Dyslexia*: a learning disorder marked by impairment of the ability to recognize and comprehend written words.
This has been mentioned more than once on MT and I would think that someone like yourself would be more understanding. Now this is what I posted:



> Remy died August 28, 2001.


How does this question what Remys passing meant to you?
You wrote:


> However, I would like to say that being tired or working too hard is not a valid excuse for an improper action. We are all individually accountable for our actions.


Well the problem is that the less rest I get the more my condition affects me. I didn't choose to be born with this condition. This is not the first time that someone has posted after misreading a thread. What with your response. It seams that youre a little worked up about something?


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## Guro Harold (Jun 30, 2006)

Hi Tim,

Thank you for taking the time out to reply and your display of courage and humility that you have shown by mentioning your condition, of which, I was not aware.

Please know that I have always had nothing but respect for you and that has not changed. This has been shown in my posts and even in this thread in such as, just to make sure that you knew that I was addressing you with respect, I addressed you as Mr. Hartman.

As we have seen with Monkey, when there is a situation that could cause misunderstanding, it takes even more effort to properly ensure that we communicate clearly.

Speaking for myself, I see that as a challenge when I write or communicate verbally because my mind moves faster than my delivery, and as result, I might on occasion drop words or studder.

As far as Remy, as I have stated, remembering him and the anniversary of his passing is important to me, that was my only concern.

It is not in my personalty to start or maintain animosity. Maybe it's my laissez-faire attitude (yes, it causes alots of fun and trouble sometimes), but once I have stated my concern, I don't think about it anymore or hold on to it.

Lastly, for us all, it's time to party!!! How about in memory of the Professor this year, we order steak and lobster dinners on August 28th?!!!

Best regards,

Harold


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