# The Tradition of Karate



## Greb0603 (Feb 9, 2009)

I was looking at various karate web-sites and most of them place much emphasis on the traditional dojo kun.

What I want to know is how does this practice of acting Japanese benefit the western person? Surely this is a practice that suited the samurai era but isn't it out-dated now? We are there to learn to defend ourselves aren't we? But it seems that there is more emphasis on bowing and scraping about instead of realistic modern combative self defence.

Your comments would be interesting.


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## Hand Sword (Feb 9, 2009)

That's a really tough one for me to answer. You sound like an eclectic person over a traditional one. I am or WAS too. I totally hear where you're coming from with this and have had the same thoughts as well. I would say first, maybe try and do a kem/npo system. It's the Karate SD without as much bowing etc.. Second, if you're going to stay in it be patient. you can always practice on your own the way that you want. Overall though, all of the traditional stuff I'm starting to find value with and realize that it is all needed. Humility and respect believe it or not come into play in real Sd situations than you might think. Practicing them migh even help to avoid those situations. It does make you a better person overall.


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## jarrod (Feb 9, 2009)

some people really like the discipline.  others feel more connected to a unique culture.  personally i don't care for excessive asian formalities, but it serves it's purpose for some.  

i was reading up on a specific dojo's etiquette, one thing they mentioned is that students are to arrive early & stretch out in silence, no socializing.  now i can really see how this could help some folks focus on what's ahead of them.  for myself however, i loosen up mentally by joking around & shooting the breeze.  to each their own.  i am unashamedly a westerner myself.

jf


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## wolfeyes2323 (Feb 9, 2009)

Greb0603 said:


> I was looking at various karate web-sites and most of them place much emphasis on the traditional dojo kun.
> 
> What I want to know is how does this practice of acting Japanese benefit the western person? Surely this is a practice that suited the samurai era but isn't it out-dated now? We are there to learn to defend ourselves aren't we? But it seems that there is more emphasis on bowing and scraping about instead of realistic modern combative self defence.
> 
> Your comments would be interesting.


 
Greetings - Karate originated in Okinawa before it was a 
prefecture of Japan,   The Okinawans tend to be less strict 
and formal than the Japanese. 

When karate was formulated into a curriculum which could 
be taught in the Japanese school systems, (early 1900's) ,
much more military style discipline was included. 

At that time the Japanese were interested in preparing 
School/university  age childern/young men for military service.

The practice of karate post WWII in the USA was 
primarily the result of American military men opening 
dojo's after begining a study of karate while stationed 
in Japan or on  Okinawa,   They kept a lot of the 
harsh military style discipline, because they were 
used to it. 

Traditionally ,  the practice of karate should be 
done in a courtious , respectful manner, 
it takes great personal disipline (which may be harsh)
but  harsh military discipline is not necessary,
(like excessive bowing, yelling back Hi sensei etc)   

As far as real combative methods,  Karate methods 
have been proven over the centuries,   they were
in fact so real , and effective that they had to be 
tempered and modified to be taught as a curriculum 
to childern and turned into a sporting practice,
This is not Toudi ,  or China hand or even ku-te, 
What karate has become is mostly a Civil art , 
a school child curriculum,  and/or a sport,
as taught by most , karate  has lost it martial nature 
by design,   and carrying on with harsh Japanese 
school boy discipline will not bring this martail nature back,
to the practice.

Romney^..^


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## twendkata71 (Feb 9, 2009)

After training in both Japanese and Okinawan karate schools, there are only a few strict guidelines that need to be followed. 
Karate begins and ends with courtesy, Self discipline in your training, mutual respect and a strong moral code.  
The harsh spartanistic discipline of many of the Japanese Dojo is really unnecessary.  Much of this came from Japanese instructors brought up in the University system. As well as ex military men comming back from Japan and Okinawa adding their own Military standards along with what they learned.
Karate training can be kept in a relaxed but disciplined atmosphere. As long as the basic guidelines of ettiquette are observed.  
Really the strict discipline must be kept within yourself. All of the harsh training in the world is not going to make you a better karate ka unless you have the self discipline to polish what you learned.


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## rmclain (Feb 9, 2009)

Whether you follow the strict etiquette guidelines in your dojo or not, I don't see the harm in following a version of the dojo kun.  If more people in the world followed it, the world would probably be a much better place.

One version on the dojo kun:

_First. Seek perfection of character
First. Protect the way of the truth 
First. Foster the spirit of effort 
First. Respect the principles of etiquette and respect others
First. Guard against impetuous courage and refrain from violent behavior. _

R. McLain


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 9, 2009)

Greb0603 said:


> I was looking at various karate web-sites and most of them place much emphasis on the traditional dojo kun.
> 
> What I want to know is how does this practice of acting Japanese benefit the western person? Surely this is a practice that suited the samurai era but isn't it out-dated now? We are there to learn to defend ourselves aren't we? But it seems that there is more emphasis on bowing and scraping about instead of realistic modern combative self defence.
> 
> Your comments would be interesting.



I am a beginner, but I count myself fortunate to have found a 'traditional' style dojo where a reasonably-authentic style of Okinawan Karate is taught by a sensei who can show his training lineage from his master(s) to the founder of our style, which makes me 4th-generation - not an easy thing to find these days.

I don't think I am acting Japanese.  In fact, I lived on Okinawa while in the military many years ago, and I have much respect for the Okinawan and Japanese people, but they have flaws like anyone else - they're not perfect, and their culture is not necessarily better than my culture.  I'm no Otaku fanboy.

Bowing is a simple form of respect, practiced in many cultures.  In practice, it is a bit more formal, and has more meaning, than a western handshake - more like a military salute performed by civilians.  Do you think of military people saluting each other as 'scraping'?  The bow does not indicate subserviance or submissiveness; it is respect shown to those one believes have earned it, and since a bow is returned, it is respect shown to those who respect others.  It is politeness, it is not being a submissive dog.

My style of karate came from Okinawa, and it evolved from amongst those traditions and that culture.  I suspect that learning in an environment that is reasonably close to the environment in which this style was taught can enhance my understanding.

For me, martial arts is much more than just a punch or a kick.  I wanted something more than that, and I think I am finding it.  A punch is good, but what of tanden?   Understanding the Japanese understanding of where power comes from helps me to understand generating power from my hips and not from the strength in my arms or legs - just one example, I continue to find more as I progress in my training.

Rendering respect and courtesy in the Japanese / Okinawan manner also makes me more receptive to learning in the way that the style is traditionally taught, I think.  It changes my mindset.  There is the 'me' that exists outside the dojo, and the 'me' that exists inside the dojo.

In 'real life' I am a professional IT person; highly skilled, trained, and educated, and my experience and work history has earned me respect in my field. In the dojo, I am a rank beginner, humble, ready to learn, grateful to be taught.  If bowing to the shomen and my senseis puts me in that frame of mind, as the kohai, then I can't help but think of that as a good thing.

I am ten years older than my sensei.  Outside the dojo, if we did not know each other, I would expect that he would see me as a senior person, and if he had a question about computers, I have no doubt he'd listen to my instruction and advice.  Inside the dojo, he is sensei, and I am but a humble beginner.  If there is an American equivalent of that, I don't know what it is.

There is even a presumed authority that goes with the title of sensei.  When sensei says _"Bill, I didn't see you in class on Monday.  What's up with that?"_  I gulp and say _"Gomenasai, sensei.  I had to work late."_  Believe it or not, that's a powerful incentive not to miss any more training!  I suspect that I'd not look on a 'self-defense instructor' as having enough 'authority' to make me go 'whoops!' to myself - that may just be me!  Hey, it's no skin off sensei's nose if I don't show up - I pay the same amount every month.  He just cares about my training.

So, I like what I have found.  I wear a white canvas gi, I wear a white belt which sybolizes my lack of training and knowledge.  My sensei wears a black belt.  Both of us bow to the shomen, and when I bow to sensei, he bows back.  We show respect for each other - I respect him for teaching me, and he respects me for my willingness to accept his instruction and authority.

And for what it may be worth, I do not think of karate as the art of the samarai.  At least from my understanding, it is the art of the common man, often used in defense against samarai.  Even understanding this much of Japanese culture and history helps me to place karate in its proper perspective - it is not 'self defense', it is so much more than that.  It is karate-*do* - a 'way' and not merely an 'art' or a 'skill'.

I could find a school that teaches self-defense, and I have no doubt that it would be a good thing.  I'd accomplish several of the things I want to accomplish by joining a dojo.  I'd find some level of physical fitness, and I'd learn punches, kicks, and other ways to defend myself from attackers.  What I might not find is a deeper sense of understanding, a willingness to be the student and not the master, and an appreciation of the culture that brought us karate.  I want those things, too.  So for me, a traditional dojo is just right.


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## searcher (Feb 9, 2009)

Our entire Dojo Kun comes back to one idea-Nin: to persevere, never give up. All of our rules andideas come right back to that one thing and we proudly wear the kanji for it on our uniforms.


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## Nomad (Feb 9, 2009)

Greb0603 said:


> I was looking at various karate web-sites and most of them place much emphasis on the traditional dojo kun.
> 
> What I want to know is how does this practice of acting Japanese benefit the western person? Surely this is a practice that suited the samurai era but isn't it out-dated now? We are there to learn to defend ourselves aren't we? But it seems that there is more emphasis on bowing and scraping about instead of realistic modern combative self defence.
> 
> Your comments would be interesting.


 
Much of this type of protocol stems from Funakoshi's writings that the purpose of karate was to hone the character of the practitioner (although there is ample evidence that he believed otherwise before WWII, this was what he espoused publicly afterwards during the American occupation).    

Is it necessary to martial arts?  No.  But IMO it provides a good counterpoint to many of the lessons being taught; in essence, you are teaching people how to brutally hurt, injure, or potentially kill another human being.  By adding in elements of eastern philosophy that may be present in a dojo kun, you temper this (hopefully) with a better understanding of how people should behave towards one another in terms of showing respect, tolerance, honesty, etc.  

Many of us will never use our combat skills in real life situations, but we can use the ideas present in the philosophy espoused by many dojos in our daily life to strengthen relationships, gain a better understanding of ourselves and others, and to change behaviors or defuse situations that could potentially lead to physical conflicts. 

In my opinion, this combination of fighting techniques and philosphical ideas has a tremendous value.  Others don't see it that way... fine, go sign up for the MMA place down the road (that is more likely to focus solely on the fighting and not on any philosophy, though I know this isn't always the case).


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## jim777 (Feb 10, 2009)

I actually like the formality of the Japanese classes. Because I sneak out of work and go to class during the afternoons in midtown Manhattan, the bowing in and formality of class actually helps to clear my mind of all work related things so I can enjoy the karate and the class. Honestly, I don't have a problem with any of it, and I do like the fact that it is a bit foreign for a boy from 'da Bronx who hasn't traveled that much It's nicer, I think, than hearing "OK Youse guys, listen up, we're gonna do some kicks now" 

Osu!


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## RoninSoul (Feb 15, 2009)

I find nothing wrong with tradition or traditional respect, which incidentally seems to be missing in our western culture altogether. Learning to respect one another is learning to respect ourselves and our art. Karate without a code or standards is the difference between a well prepared meal and Drive-thru fast food. And if all one wants to do is learn to hurt someone why don't we buy a weapon, stay home and watch T.V. Now that's western....:wink1:
Osu


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## TimoS (Feb 17, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> At least from my understanding, it is the art of the common man, often used in defense against samarai



No, not really. Karate was originally used e.g. by the king's bodyguards and law enforcement officials. The myth of karate being used against invading samurai is just that, a myth.


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## jkembry (Feb 17, 2009)

Perhaps the idea is not to act Okinawian, or Japanese, but to take the time to respect the elders (living and those that have passed on) that took the time to pass the art to us.

Personally, I enjoy the tradition of respect.  Probably because in everyday life I see so little of it.


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