# Taekwondo: Out of the Olympic Games after Brazil 2016?



## Markku P

Next year will be quite an important year for the Taekwondo community. The IOC will be making decisions whether to keep Taekwondo as an Olympic sport. We have to brace ourselves and be ready to the possibility that Taekwondo won&#8217;t be part of the Olympic Games after 2016. And should that happen, how will this affect us?As a Taekwondo school owner, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any effect at all. People who have started training with me don&#8217;t care at all if we are an Olympic sport or not. 

Taekwondo is also very small in our country so we don&#8217;t get much publicity. We might get some if someone is fighting at the Olympics. But so far, we haven&#8217;t won any medals so big for media to show any interest.But for me, personally, it would be very sad if we are not part of the Olympics. But like I mentioned earlier, it won&#8217;t have any effect on my own training or how I operate my school.

The national federations might be a different story though. In some countries, I suspect that they will get less money from their national Olympic committees and that will surely have a negative effect on their operations.Is being in the Olympic Games necessary for us?Well, not for individual schools. But for the national federations, it is quite important because of the money and status. But for people like me who are focusing more on &#8220;average&#8221; Taekwondo students, everything will stay the same. So it really doesn&#8217;t matter if we are on the Olympics or not.

But what do you think?

Yours,

Markku Parviainen​


----------



## Markku P

I think we should watch this again!




Yours,

Markku


----------



## puunui

I was present when Dr. Kim gave that speech in Korea. miguksaram was there too.


----------



## miguksaram

It was a very somber moment when he made such a claim.  We had 80 people from 13 different countries in that room when he was speaking.  After the speech you could still hear the proverbial pin drop as we all took in exactly what he was saying.  Though I have no dog in the fight for TKD being in the Olympics, I do feel it still impacts TKD as a whole.  Even if your school does not promote Olympic TKD, the public may still see issues with the thought "Isn't that the sport that was kicked out of the olympics?"


----------



## Gemini

Last time I watched, the networks here no longer support any activity involving physical competition outside of wrestling and even that is limited. Even boxing fell out of favor after peeking in the 70's. Without airtime in prime time, trying to follow Taekwondo was very difficult. Because of that, I don't think it will have as adverse effect as originally may be anticipated. As for me and my school, absolutely no impact. We spar, sometimes compete, but it isn't the primary focus of our training. I imagine those that thrive on competition will still do so. Why shouldn't they?


----------



## miguksaram

Gemini said:


> Last time I watched, the networks here no longer support any activity involving physical competition outside of wrestling and even that is limited. Even boxing fell out of favor after peeking in the 70's. Without airtime in prime time, trying to follow Taekwondo was very difficult. Because of that, I don't think it will have as adverse effect as originally may be anticipated. As for me and my school, absolutely no impact. We spar, sometimes compete, but it isn't the primary focus of our training. I imagine those that thrive on competition will still do so. Why shouldn't they?


While I agree there is no TV airtime, you can catch most, if not all, online which a lot of the public has turned to.  It may not have the affect of people no longer doing TKD.  However, I do believe it will leave a giant black eye for a long time to come if it is removed.


----------



## puunui

miguksaram said:


> While I agree there is no TV airtime, you can catch most, if not all, online which a lot of the public has turned to.




There is even an iphone app for watching wtf competition and other stuff.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Might I simply suggest that there were serious TKD practitioners prior to the sport being put into the Olympics.  There were serious TKD practitioners while the sport was in the Olympics, but weren't really affected by it one way or the other.  And if I may, there will be serious TKD practitioners still, regardless of whether it is discontinued on not.  Will it affect some organizations?  Perhaps.  Will it, or should it affect the TKD practitioner as an individual?  Probably not, unless their goal was specifically to go to the Olympics.


----------



## puunui

miguksaram said:


> It was a very somber moment when he made such a claim.  We had 80 people from 13 different countries in that room when he was speaking.  After the speech you could still hear the proverbial pin drop as we all took in exactly what he was saying.



It was kind of sobering. Otherwise, the trip was pretty good. Great mix of juniors and seniors. I want to do it again. Everyone made time to show their hospitality to us.


----------



## Gemini

miguksaram said:


> While I agree there is no TV airtime, you can catch most, if not all, online which a lot of the public has turned to.  It may not have the affect of people no longer doing TKD.  However, I do believe it will leave a giant black eye for a long time to come if it is removed.



Since this is all so much speculation because it hasn't happened yet, I could be wrong, but it certainly hasn't seemed to hurt our predecessors. Events come and go all the time. I couldn't even tell you if Judo and Karate are still Olympic sports though I knew they were at one time. Boxing took a much bigger hit from the growth of MMA than it ever did from airtime loss in the Olympics. 

You could be right, we'll just have to wait and see. Being a PM, my thinking wouldn't be focused as much on whether or not it will continue, but what will we all do as a community to ensure our continued growth. Seems like a better use of time to focus on what we control as opposed to what we don't.


----------



## miguksaram

puunui said:


> It was kind of sobering. Otherwise, the trip was pretty good. Great mix of juniors and seniors. I want to do it again. Everyone made time to show their hospitality to us.


The trip was excellent...The only thing I really didn't like were all the formal dinners we were rushed too.  I enjoyed the trips on the bus where we got "one on one" time with some of US pioneers of TKD.  They were fun to converse with and full of great history and direction.  The best part was they talked to you like you were part of their school...like family as opposed to talking to you like a stranger just asking questions.

Another great time was going with the seniors to the makkoli house.   Great time as GM Park and other GM's would check on the juniors and make sure are cups were full. ha.ha.ha


----------



## Gemini

puunui said:


> There is even an iphone app for watching wtf competition and other stuff.


That's true, but I doubt many folks outside of the community were tuning into my that means. Growth is based on reaching those beyond your inner circle and showcasing the Taekwondo experience to new people. That's why air time is so important. I just don't think the Olympics played as big a role in doing that as our inner circle may think.


----------



## Twin Fist

that why the olympics was a bad idea of epic proportions in the first place: you cater your business to ONE thing, you better make sure that thing cant be taken away from you.

NOW, there are i imagine 1000's of places that will have to totally change how they market thier product, once it is removed from the games. no one willbe able to say they are a stepping stone to the olympics

i think it is GREAT if it gets dropped but then i havnt placed all my eggs in that basket so to speak


----------



## puunui

Gemini said:


> I couldn't even tell you if Judo and Karate are still Olympic sports though I knew they were at one time.




Judo is still an Olympic sport but not karate. Karate was never an Olympic sport, but it might be in 2020. The IOC shortlisted Karate, Wushu and some other sports to be included in the 2020 Games.


----------



## puunui

miguksaram said:


> The trip was excellent...The only thing I really didn't like were all the formal dinners we were rushed too.



I didn't mind the formal dinners. Once we ate lunch at this seaside restaurant. There was this clam broth served there that I have been trying to recreate but simply cannot. 




miguksaram said:


> I enjoyed the trips on the bus where we got "one on one" time with some of US pioneers of TKD.  They were fun to converse with and full of great history and direction.  The best part was they talked to you like you were part of their school...like family as opposed to talking to you like a stranger just asking questions.



that's what taekwondo is all about when you get down to it. All martial arts really. 




miguksaram said:


> Another great time was going with the seniors to the makkoli house.   Great time as GM Park and other GM's would check on the juniors and make sure are cups were full. ha.ha.ha



I was invited but declined to go to that.


----------



## Gemini

puunui said:


> Judo is still an Olympic sport but not karate. Karate was never an Olympic sport, but it might be in 2020. The IOC shortlisted Karate, Wushu and some other sports to be included in the 2020 Games.


I stand corrected.


----------



## terryl965

Well to me it would be said, would it effect my school not a single bit. I believe the IOC will keep the sport side there simply because of the money that is going to be pushed on them. Also we need to find a way to keep people training and learning TKD. To many school will start to jump ship and alot of those Karate school will imaginary go back to karate.


----------



## puunui

terryl965 said:


> Well to me it would be said, would it effect my school not a single bit. I believe the IOC will keep the sport side there simply because of the money that is going to be pushed on them.



What money that is going to be pushed on who, the IOC?


----------



## Markku P

terryl965 said:


> I believe the IOC will keep the sport side there simply because of the money that is going to be pushed on them.



I think it's IOC who is paying for national federations.

/Markku P.


----------



## SPX

Pretty weird.

I've never heard of a sport gaining Olympic status and then losing it.  Has there been any rationale given as to why?  (If it's stated in the video that was posted, forgive me, but I had a hard time understanding what he was saying given both the accent and audio quality of the clip.)

Being that I have JUST converted to WTF TKD, if the sport loses its Olympic status it will be a disappointment.  I like the idea of it being an Olympic sport and at least in the back of my mind there's the idea that I could potentially get to the Olympics in my own training, though the latter is admittedly probably a pipe dream.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I've never heard of a sport gaining Olympic status and then losing it.  Has there been any rationale given as to why?



Other sports have lost its Olympic status before. Baseball I think for one. There are many reasons why a sport can be taken off the Olympic program. One of the reasons against taekwondo is that many IOC members consider taekwondo to be a haven for countries run by undesirables, and it gives those countries a chance to flaunt the spotlight at the IOC's expense sometimes. Countries like Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, etc. A cuban taekwondo competitor kicked a referee in the head at the 2008 Olympics, and Fidel Castro declared him a national hero. Things like that.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> Other sports have lost its Olympic status before. Baseball I think for one. There are many reasons why a sport can be taken off the Olympic program. One of the reasons against taekwondo is that many IOC members consider taekwondo to be a haven for countries run by undesirables, and it gives those countries a chance to flaunt the spotlight at the IOC's expense sometimes. Countries like Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, etc. A cuban taekwondo competitor kicked a referee in the head at the 2008 Olympics, and Fidel Castro declared him a national hero. Things like that.



Fidel Castro's good friends, KIM Jong Ill and his father KIM Ill Sung, assisted by CHOI Hong Hi and the ITF, continuously worked to block Taekwondo from gaining Olympic status, and worked just as hard to have Taekwondo's Olympic status removed, still work today to do the same. The North Korean terrorist group and their sympathizers know that having Taekwondo removed from Olympics weakens the international standing of USA's staunch ally, South Korea.  When one of USA's great allies looses such a powerful international relationship channel like the Olympics, it also weakens Americas position as well.

But CHOI Hong Hi's work for the North Korean United Front Department, spreading their hate filled message and lies has been very successful, so successful in fact that right here in the USA we have American flag waving citizens that identify themselves as patriots for the American cause, repeating the United Front Departments exact propaganda lines hoping Taekwondo is booted from the Olympics, claiming that South Korean Taekwondo is not a martial art, etc.   Many people who practice Taekwondo always like to say that Taekwondo is about discipline, morals. spirit and ultimately peace, or world peace.  They need to think about what this really means, and what the real benefits of having Taekwondo as an Olympic event are.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Other sports have lost its Olympic status before. Baseball I think for one. There are many reasons why a sport can be taken off the Olympic program. One of the reasons against taekwondo is that many IOC members consider taekwondo to be a haven for countries run by undesirables, and it gives those countries a chance to flaunt the spotlight at the IOC's expense sometimes. Countries like Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, etc. A cuban taekwondo competitor kicked a referee in the head at the 2008 Olympics, and Fidel Castro declared him a national hero. Things like that.



Interesting.  I had never heard that.  Why pick on TKD, though?  I mean, don't sportsmen from these countries also compete in other events as well?


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Interesting.  I had never heard that.  Why pick on TKD, though?  I mean, don't sportsmen from these countries also compete in other events as well?



One of the argument put forth by taekwondo is that it gives competitors from countries who don't send athletes to the Games, a chance to participate. There are no gymnasts or swimmers competing in the Olympic from Iran for example. But some IOC members look at that and think if we get rid of taekwondo, we also get rid, of these countries as well. Dr. Kim in his speech above, told us that the IOC HATES Taekwondo, and that we need to be especially careful. I think we should take his advice. He knows that taekwondo is hanging by a thread.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> Fidel Castro's good friends, KIM Jong Ill and his father KIM Ill Sung, assisted by CHOI Hong Hi and the ITF, continuously worked to block Taekwondo from gaining Olympic status, and worked just as hard to have Taekwondo's Olympic status removed, still work today to do the same.



That's right, North Korea's IOC member and ITF President Mr. CHANG Ung is probably the flag bearer on getting Taekwondo kicked out of the Olympics. Having South Korea shamed by losing Taekwondo's Olympic status is North Korea's immediate game right now, and everyone who contributes to that anti-taekwondo hate, in reality is helping North Korea further their scheme.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> One of the argument put forth by taekwondo is that it gives competitors from countries who don't send athletes to the Games, a chance to participate. There are no gymnasts or swimmers competing in the Olympic from Iran for example.



I don't get how that is any more true though for TKD than for weight lifting or shotput.  I mean, what is special about TKD that it is somehow a gateway for these countries?  Is it somehow more accessible?  Certainly there are swimming pools and weight benches in Iran. . .



puunui said:


> But some IOC members look at that and think if we get rid of taekwondo, we also get rid, of these countries as well. Dr. Kim in his speech above, told us that the IOC HATES Taekwondo, and that we need to be especially careful. I think we should take his advice. He knows that taekwondo is hanging by a thread.



That's interesting.  So what do you think will happen?


----------



## Carol

SPX said:


> I don't get how that is any more true though for TKD than for weight lifting or shotput.  I mean, what is special about TKD that it is somehow a gateway for these countries?  Is it somehow more accessible?  Certainly there are swimming pools and weight benches in Iran. . .



One reason, Iran is a very conservative Islamic country.  The skin-tight athletic wear worn by many athletes is strongly frowned upon.


----------



## Gorilla

If they drop TKD they probably add Karate another great sport.  I hope that they add Karate and keep TKD.  That would open a lot of options for us.  Many people in Karate are skeptical about the Olympic movement and many are excited about the proposition.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Ive gotta be honest, and I'll probably get shot for saying this but, unless you are a tkdist it really isnt much of a spectator sport, it really is boring. I dont know if its the ruleset, the competitors, the scoring or what it is, but I dont watch olympic tkd and see it as a fair representation of what tkd has to offer. I also dont know if the olympic commitee take this into consideration, or many other sports would probably lose olympic status also.I always felt that tkd should be run more like the gymnastics where each competitor has to perform on several apparatus. Each competitior should spar, then perform a self defence routine (given a score by judges), then do a timber break (maximum 10 baords) however they wish to break them (individual or multiple breaks) and then be judged on poomsae. The competitor with the most points wins. Sparring is one part of tkd and it seems a bit wierd to me to be judged "olympic gold medal winner for tkd" when all you did was spar. My insructor always says that they should call it "tkd sparring" in the olympics, not tkd, I tend to agree.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Ive gotta be honest, and I'll probably get shot for saying this but, unless you are a tkdist it really isnt much of a spectator sport, it really is boring. I dont know if its the ruleset, the competitors, the scoring or what it is, but I dont watch olympic tkd and see it as a fair representation of what tkd has to offer. I also dont know if the olympic commitee take this into consideration, or many other sports would probably lose olympic status also.I always felt that tkd should be run more like the gymnastics where each competitor has to perform on several apparatus. Each competitior should spar, then perform a self defence routine (given a score by judges), then do a timber break (maximum 10 baords) however they wish to break them (individual or multiple breaks) and then be judged on poomsae. The competitor with the most points wins. Sparring is one part of tkd and it seems a bit wierd to me to be judged "olympic gold medal winner for tkd" when all you did was spar. My insructor always says that they should call it "tkd sparring" in the olympics, not tkd, I tend to agree.



I'm all for using it's proper name, Shihap Kyorugi, or Match Sparring.  It's not a complete representative of Taekwondo, but it is the best representative of Taekwondo. Forms, board breaking or hoshinsul would have never made it around the world to root Taekwondo in 200 nations.  Match sparring was the spear head, or vehicle to introduce Taekwondo to the world and it was successful, the learning more part would follow. And that is happening now, a great many people are beginning to learn a great many things about Taekwondo because of match sparring being in the Olympic games.

As for boring to watch, maybe. Depends. Years ago I went to a lot of local tournament -- point style - old style Taekwondo/Karate/open rules/non full-contact events and only a small few people had good skill. Then I started attending local Taekwondo tournaments, there were more people with better skills.  Then to national events where there were many more good fighters with greater skill. Then to international events, where today, most fighters have excellent skills.  But I did not see these events on TV or on a computer, I saw then all up close, live. That was way more impressive, knockout after knockout, after knockout.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> I'm all for using it's proper name, Shihap Kyorugi, or Match Sparring.  It's not a complete representative of Taekwondo, but it is the best representative of Taekwondo. Forms, board breaking or hoshinsul would have never made it around the world to root Taekwondo in 200 nations.  Match sparring was the spear head, or vehicle to introduce Taekwondo to the world and it was successful, the learning more part would follow. And that is happening now, a great many people are beginning to learn a great many things about Taekwondo because of match sparring being in the Olympic games.
> 
> As for boring to watch, maybe. Depends. Years ago I went to a lot of local tournament -- point style - old style Taekwondo/Karate/open rules/non full-contact events and only a small few people had good skill. Then I started attending local Taekwondo tournaments, there were more people with better skills.  Then to national events where there were many more good fighters with greater skill. Then to international events, where today, most fighters have excellent skills.  But I did not see these events on TV or on a computer, I saw then all up close, live. That was way more impressive, knockout after knockout, after knockout.


Good points. I would never question the skills of these people, even from a tv screen I can see how incredibly quick they are and how good their reflexes are. In fact, just before the 2000 olympics here in australia a girl I train with went to melbourne and entered a tkd event (which was a big ask for her considering we dont do that style of sparring and it was all new to her). I was talking to her recently about the experience and she was in awe of the speed of her opponents and their knowledge of angles, distancing, reflexes etc etc. she actually got to spar Lauren burns who went on to win olympic gold in sydney.  I, like you, am a tkdist so I can appreciate these things and see it for what it is, but I can see how people with no knowledge of tkd would not understand and find it boring, a little like test crikcet.


----------



## mastercole

Markku P said:


> I think it's IOC who is paying for national federations.
> 
> /Markku P.



Was it you that I met, several years back, maybe 1999, or early 2000's at the Kukkiwon. I think it was you and maybe your students that were standing out side the Kukkiwon cafeteria, right in front of the museum steps under the trees, by the benches. If I recall correctly, you were speaking with GM BANG Man Kyu and we realized we had communicated on tkd-net's list and spoke briefly before he took me on a tour of the museum.  Excuse me if it was not you, it was someone from Sweden, Norway or Finland.  My name is Al Cole from the USA.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Good points. I would never question the skills of these people, even from a tv screen I can see how incredibly quick they are and how good their reflexes are. In fact, just before the 2000 olympics here in australia a girl I train with went to melbourne and entered a tkd event (which was a big ask for her considering we dont do that style of sparring and it was all new to her). I was talking to her recently about the experience and she was in awe of the speed of her opponents and their knowledge of angles, distancing, reflexes etc etc. she actually got to spar Lauren burns who went on to win olympic gold in sydney.  I, like you, am a tkdist so I can appreciate these things and see it for what it is, but I can see how people with no knowledge of tkd would not understand and find it boring, a little like test crikcet.



Right, so I don't know how to relay the reality of what is actually happening in the ring to a TV viewer. Even to other Taekwondoin who have never been to an elite event. They see speed and accuracy, but sometime, they imagine there is not much power when in fact the elite WTF athletes generate an enormous among of power on impact, even often knockout opponents with blows to the body, through the hogu. How can that be shown on TV?  I don't think it can.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Right, so I don't know how to relay the reality of what is actually happening in the ring to a TV viewer. Even to other Taekwondoin who have never been to an elite event. They see speed and accuracy, but sometime, they imagine there is not much power when in fact the elite WTF athletes generate an enormous among of power on impact, even often knockout opponents with blows to the body, through the hogu. How can that be shown on TV?  I don't think it can.


It cant, and to someone who doesnt do tkd it just looks like two people playing "foot tag", and leads to the usual questions "why dont they keep their guard up?", "why dont they punch?" "how come they just keep doing roundhouse kicks?" etc etc. As a tkdist, I know the answers to those questions, but to the average joe sitting at home on the couch with a beer watching the olympics it gets a bit confusing and they dont understand it, and thus declare it boring. This sort of thing is boring to a non tkdist -----------------


----------



## andyjeffries

puunui said:


> Other sports have lost its Olympic status before. Baseball I think for one. There are many reasons why a sport can be taken off the Olympic program. One of the reasons against taekwondo is that many IOC members consider taekwondo to be a haven for countries run by undesirables, and it gives those countries a chance to flaunt the spotlight at the IOC's expense sometimes. Countries like Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, etc. A cuban taekwondo competitor kicked a referee in the head at the 2008 Olympics, and Fidel Castro declared him a national hero. Things like that.



So kick Cuba out of the IOC, not Taekwondo.  I don't agree with punishing a sport to get rid of a minority undesirable element - man up and get rid of that element!


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> Might I simply suggest that there were serious TKD practitioners prior to the sport being put into the Olympics.  There were serious TKD practitioners while the sport was in the Olympics, but weren't really affected by it one way or the other.  And if I may, there will be serious TKD practitioners still, regardless of whether it is discontinued on not.  Will it affect some organizations?  Perhaps.  Will it, or should it affect the TKD practitioner as an individual?  Probably not, unless their goal was specifically to go to the Olympics.



So Taekwondo is only about the serious individual?

I may be biased as I currently only teach children, but for me Taekwondo is for everyone.  It's a vehicle of improvement for the person (fitness, etiquette, relationships) and it shouldn't only be left to the serious hard-core SD nut (or whatever).

Recently Jade Jones was on a major UK TV talk show (Jonathan Ross).  My students were excited because there was an elite Taekwondo player on TV.  It doesn't matter whether she was preparing for the Olympics or World Championships (the fact that it was the Olympics was what got her on TV though), the kids were excited to watch.  I don't think any of them at this stage are dreaming of fighting at the Olympics, but to see others doing well, getting on TV for it, is inspiring for them to continue/start.

Then again I guess 6-13 year old kids fit your definition of "serious TKD practitioner" so I don't know if you think they should be training at all.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

andyjeffries said:


> So kick Cuba out of the IOC, not Taekwondo.  I don't agree with punishing a sport to get rid of a minority undesirable element - man up and get rid of that element!


I couldnt agree more Andy. What punishment was handed out to that guy by the WTF? I never really heard anymore about the incident after the olympics.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> I couldnt agree more Andy. What punishment was handed out to that guy by the WTF? I never really heard anymore about the incident after the olympics.



He was banned for life.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

andyjeffries said:


> So Taekwondo is only about the serious individual?
> 
> I may be biased as I currently only teach children, but for me Taekwondo is for everyone.  It's a vehicle of improvement for the person (fitness, etiquette, relationships) and it shouldn't only be left to the serious hard-core SD nut (or whatever).
> 
> Recently Jade Jones was on a major UK TV talk show (Jonathan Ross).  My students were excited because there was an elite Taekwondo player on TV.  It doesn't matter whether she was preparing for the Olympics or World Championships (the fact that it was the Olympics was what got her on TV though), the kids were excited to watch.  I don't think any of them at this stage are dreaming of fighting at the Olympics, but to see others doing well, getting on TV for it, is inspiring for them to continue/start.
> 
> Then again I guess 6-13 year old kids fit your definition of "serious TKD practitioner" so I don't know if you think they should be training at all.


I think there can be a difference between "serious tkd practitioner" and someone who takes there tkd training "seriously". I am not a serious tkd practitioner, I am just too busy, I have 2 kids and run a large business, for me its a hobby. BUT, I take my tkd training seriously, I listen and try to grasp the concepts as well as I can and practice at home and work on my weaknesses. I know people will say its the same thing, but I tend to disagree. The problem I see with many kids doing tkd is that they just dont take it seriously, they do little or no practice at home and only enjoy it when they get to play "games". Thats fine, and there are clubs that cater for that as its a viable market. My instructor doesnt stand for that with kids, if they treat martial arts like a big game, he advises their parents that they may prefer to train at the club up the road and gladly hands out the details of another club. Im not saying he wont let the kids have fun, but all within reason. As an instructor its your own personal choice what you expect from your students and I can see it both ways and feel there is a place for both aproaches. I see this with my kids, my daughter treats it like a big game and my son only likes training when its 'serious', fortunately there are schools/instructors out there for both mindsets.


----------



## Markku P

mastercole said:


> Was it you that I met, several years back, maybe 1999, or early 2000's at the Kukkiwon.



I think it was some of my friends from Finland. Last time I visited in Kukkiwon was 1995


----------



## Markku P

andyjeffries said:


> Recently Jade Jones was on a major UK TV talk show (Jonathan Ross).  My students were excited because there was an elite Taekwondo player on TV.  It doesn't matter whether she was preparing for the Olympics or World Championships (the fact that it was the Olympics was what got her on TV though),



I saw her on TV and I think she was very good, little shy perhaps 

/Markku


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> that why the olympics was a bad idea of epic proportions in the first place: you cater your business to ONE thing, you better make sure that thing cant be taken away from you.


I would agree...Any good business, should know of supply and demand.  If you focus on just one small aspect of TKD and then suddenly it is gone then you have done both yourself and your students a disservice.  KKW TKD is so much more than just Olympic sparring.



> i think it is GREAT if it gets dropped but then i havnt placed all my eggs in that basket so to speak


I hope that doesn't happen.  While I feel that Olympic TKD definitely needs to work on its image to clean up the black eye it has caused itself, I also feel we need to get martial arts out to the public more.  If not, all the mainstream public will have to judge martial arts on is UFC and occasional ESPN2 of ISKA US Open.


----------



## miguksaram

puunui said:


> I didn't mind the formal dinners. Once we ate lunch at this seaside restaurant. There was this clam broth served there that I have been trying to recreate but simply cannot.


I wouldn't have mind the dinners so much but they were, for the most part, all western dishes.  I really didn't fly 6000 miles to have a hotel steak.ha.ha.ha.  However, that was a very small thing and definitely did not ruin the trip.  The upside to the dinners was sitting at the table with people from other countries shooting the breeze about TKD, family, and other activities.  One of my favorite was GM Park from, I believe, South Africa.  His student was at my table and he came over to sit and drink with us.  He said the GM table were too old and stuffy and too serious and he just wanted to have a good meal and drink. ha.ha.ha  

As for the broth, to be honest, you may come close but will never quite make it.  A lot of those mom and pop restaurants always have some sort of ingredient that never disclose.   It is why they are always so popular and busy.



> that's what taekwondo is all about when you get down to it. All martial arts really.


Exactly.  During that time you felt the  world get smaller because you discovered so much commonality, besides TKD, amongst the people there.



> I was invited but declined to go to that.


You missed a fun time with the live octopus.  They place is known for taking pictures of their customers and putting it on their wall.  Naturally they took a picture of our table.  The best part for me is that the place that we went to is also the place the my brothers & sister-in-laws frequent.  They recognized me from before (they don't get a lot of foreigners in the shop).  When my sister-in-law came a few weeks later, she got the picture from them and sent it to me.  It was good times indeed.


----------



## Twin Fist

to someone NOT in tkd already, here is what the matches look like: bounce bounce bounce, flurry, someone falls over, reset. bounce bounce bounce bounce flurry fall over reset...........BORING, if it was exciting, it would have been on tv.

how about THIS:

add forms and breaking.

even better:

open it to ALL martial arts and call it: combat sports

3 divisions:
 breaking

kata (picked from a list of bb level katas from the various styles traditional kata only, no made up x games crap)

sparring(basic sparring rules, 1 pt for hands and 2 for kicks, take downs allowed but must include a follow up finishing move).

everyone has to compete in all three, highest combined score wins.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> to someone NOT in tkd already, here is what the matches look like: bounce bounce bounce, flurry, someone falls over, reset. bounce bounce bounce bounce flurry fall over reset...........BORING, if it was exciting, it would have been on tv.


Same can be same for most combat sports.  Sometimes you get some really great matches and sometimes you get matches that make you want Sesame Street instead because the Cookie Monster shows more aggression. 



> how about THIS:
> 
> add forms and breaking.
> 
> even better:
> 
> open it to ALL martial arts and call it: combat sports
> 
> 3 divisions:
> breaking
> 
> kata (picked from a list of bb level katas from the various styles traditional kata only, no made up x games crap)
> 
> sparring(basic sparring rules, 1 pt for hands and 2 for kicks, take downs allowed but must include a follow up finishing move).
> 
> everyone has to compete in all three, highest combined score wins.


I would love to see this.  I would like to see in the Kata three different divisions, Traditional, Creative and Extreme.  Why we are at it let's do  weapons kata as well.  This would make for some great TV sports as opposed to Poker.


----------



## miguksaram

Just as a side note, the US Open Hanmadang does do most of this already, outside of no fighting.


----------



## Twin Fist

miguksaram said:


> I would agree...Any good business, should know of supply and demand.  If you focus on just one small aspect of TKD and then suddenly it is gone then you have done both yourself and your students a disservice.  KKW TKD is so much more than just Olympic sparring.



kkw may be more, than just olympic style sparring, but the wtf isnt.

it has geared itself to ONE set of rules to the point where it cant do anything else, and from what I have read and been told by all you kkw/wtf types, the two bodies are totally intertwined. 



miguksaram said:


> I hope that doesn't happen.  While I feel that Olympic TKD definitely needs to work on its image to clean up the black eye it has caused itself, I also feel we need to get martial arts out to the public more.  If not, all the mainstream public will have to judge martial arts on is UFC and occasional ESPN2 of ISKA US Open.



true, i am of the opinion that the UFC caused more dammage to martial arts than any single thing in history.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> true, i am of the opinion that the UFC caused more dammage to martial arts than any single thing in history.


I would actually say that the UTF did a lot of damage, more than the UFC itself, though the UFC is responsible for the UTF.  Only because it showed a bunch a guys doing nothing getting drunk and then wanting to fight each other.  I know it is reality tv and that sells, it just sends a negative image to the general public about martial arts and it participants.  Now we have the other side of the extreme...we went from 5 year old BB's to 20-40 year old neanderthal type fighters as being depicted on UTF.


----------



## Twin Fist

you mean The Ultimate Fighter tv show?


----------



## andyjeffries

Markku P said:


> I saw her on TV and I think she was very good, little shy perhaps



She's only a kid, she'll get louder as she grows up I'm sure ;-)


----------



## Kong Soo Do

andyjeffries said:


> So Taekwondo is only about the serious individual?
> 
> I may be biased as I currently only teach children, but for me Taekwondo is for everyone.  It's a vehicle of improvement for the person (fitness, etiquette, relationships) and it shouldn't only be left to the serious hard-core SD nut (or whatever).



Wow, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or something?  Why would you label anyone that takes their training seriously with a focus on SD as a 'nut'.  I find that offensive and insulting and completely uncalled for in this discussion.  I suggest you reread my post and try to understand it in the light and context that it was offered.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> you mean The Ultimate Fighter tv show?


DOH!!!...I'm very assbackwards today...meant TUF.ha.ha.ha. Yes, the The Ultimate Fighter.


----------



## Twin Fist

yeah, that show is like watchign a toilet fill up before it gets flushed.

crap from start to finish


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> Wow, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or something?  Why would you label anyone that takes their training seriously with a focus on SD as a 'nut'.  I find that offensive and insulting and completely uncalled for in this discussion.  I suggest you reread my post and try to understand it in the light and context that it was offered.



LOL!  No, "nut" in normal English usage (as opposed to American usage) means enthusiast rather than crazy person...

:-D


----------



## Gemini

While there may be political undertones determining the fate of Taekwondo as an Olympic sport, it could also be true that these people are self important blowhards and their opinion of anything doesn't matter to anyone else but each other and they have absolutely no bearing on the outcome. They hate each other. always have, always will. check. On the other hand, like all other sports that have faced the Olympic hatchet, the decision could be based on nothing more than what some others here have stated. The sport does not translate well on TV, nor does it portray the image that the Olympics Committee is looking for. I've heard all these reasons and really couldn't tell you which one is true. On a more ominous note, some would not only imply that the very foundations of the Kukkiwon are at stake but nothing short of the security of the free world as we know it could crumble. *shudder*. Sorry, I'm not buying it, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. 

On a lighter note, I would agree with some other comments stated previously. While I enjoyed my own days of competition and really enjoy watching live matches, like many sports, it doesn't translate well to the tube which is the vehicle for the much larger audience. Watching world class athletes do their thing in person is always very exciting. I do like the idea that was presented earlier about combining sparring combined with breaking and forms. I know I always enjoyed competing in all three. Why not demonstrate a more expanded skill set? I had never thought of it before, but it does have a certain appeal. Sort of a Taekwondo triathlete.


----------



## Tez3

andyjeffries said:


> LOL! No, "nut" in normal English usage (as opposed to American usage) means enthusiast rather than crazy person...
> 
> :-D



Yep, that's so, my husband is a Landrover nut, loves green laneing. 'Nutcase' would be the perjorative version.

My opinion is that if the TKDists of Team GB win lots of medals at the Olympics it must stay in, if we don't win anything chuck it out!

Sports that have been kicked out of the Olympics. http://www.olympic.org/content/the-ioc/commissions/olympic-programme/past-olympic-sports/


Baseball
Cricket
Croquet
Golf
Jeu de paume 
Lacrosse




Pelote basque
Polo
Power boating 
Rackets
Rink-hockey
Roque
Rugby 
Softball
Tug of war
Water skiing


----------



## puunui

andyjeffries said:


> LOL!  No, "nut" in normal English usage (as opposed to American usage) means enthusiast rather than crazy person...
> 
> :-D



It means the same thing in the US. For example, "health nut".


----------



## puunui

Gemini said:


> While there may be political undertones determining the fate of Taekwondo as an Olympic sport, it could also be true that these people are self important blowhards and their opinion of anything doesn't matter to anyone else but each other and they have absolutely no bearing on the outcome. They hate each other. always have, always will. check. On the other hand, like all other sports that have faced the Olympic hatchet, the decision could be based on nothing more than what some others here have stated. The sport does not translate well on TV, nor does it portray the image that the Olympics Committee is looking for. I've heard all these reasons and really couldn't tell you which one is true. On a more ominous note, some would not only imply that the very foundations of the Kukkiwon are at stake but nothing short of the security of the free world as we know it could crumble. *shudder*. Sorry, I'm not buying it, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.




I don't know if it would shake the foundations of the kukkiwon, but losing Olympic status certainly is not a good thing for Taekwondo. 

On how the decision will be made, GM Bill Sullivan explained it much better than I can: 

*

In its effort to modernize the games, in 2002 the IOC voted to limit the  
Summer Olympic Programme to 28 sports, 301 events, and 10,500 athletes.  
The IOC assigned the Olympic Programme Commission (OPC) the task of  
developing a tool to evaluate each official medal sport and the sports  
short-listed for official medal status on a quadrennial basis. In 2004,  
the IOC approved the OPC proposal to evaluate each sport in the  
following seven categories: history and tradition, universality,  
popularity, image and environment, athlete welfare, development, and  
cost. Within the seven categories, there are approximately numerical 100  
variables organized in 33 subdivisions (the OPC calls these subdivisions  
"criteria"). The two categories with the largest number of numerical  
variables are universality (40 variables) and popularity (27 variables).  
That is, these two categories comprise almost 2/3 of the numerical data  
points. The other five categories include approximately 27 numerical  
variables.

The first OPC report included data from the 2000 Summer  Olympic Games 
through the 2004 games. In addition to the numerical data  points, the 
2005 OPC report included an evaluative critique of each sport.  For 
example, the report criticized the questionable judging in taekwondo  
competition and the low level of popularity of taekwondo. The 2009  
report included data from the 2004 games through the 2008 games. The  
2009 report did not include an evaluative critique of the sports, but  
did include factual statements for each sport (e.g., it described the  
taekwondo international referee training program). While the 2005 report  
included baseball and softball, the 2009 report did not, even though  
they were official medal sports in 2008.

In an exhaustive search of  the literature, I found no comparative 
evaluation of the numerical data  among the sports. Unless the IOC has a 
classified internal document, mine  will be the first to compare the data 
among the sports. My graduate research  assistant and I have analyzed the 
change in scores for all the sports from  the 2005 to the 209 OPC report. 
In total, we have approximately 7300 data  points.

I have sent two abstracts of results on all 28/26 sports to the  
organizers of the pre-Olympic sports conference in Glasgow, Scotland in  
July with the expectation that I will present my data there. So I won't  
share the results with you at this time. I will say that taekwondo was  
not in bad shape in the 2009 report. But the next OPC report is due out  
in 2013.

If I were a leader of an international federation affiliated  with the 
IOC, in addition to being a good politician within the IOC, I would  do 
all that I could to improve my sport's scores in the variables used in  
the OPC report. Weeks after the 2005 report was accepted, baseball and  
softball lost their official medal status. (Baseball and softball are  
now in discussions about a merger with the hopes that their gender  
universality scores will increase.) Weeks after the 2009 report, golf  
and rugby were approved for official medal status as of 2016. Readers of  
this blog know that both karate and wushu are short-listed sports for  
the Summer Olympic Programme.  Nothing is permanent.

*

The things you raise (port does not translate well on TV, nor does it portray the image that the Olympics Committee is looking for) maybe one or two of the approximately 100 variables the IOC is looking at. But the final decision comes in the form of a vote of IOC members.


----------



## Gemini

One or two? Really? According to your document, not all categories are created equal. 

 "The two categories with the largest number of numerical variables are universality (40 variables) and popularity (27 variables). 
That is, these two categories comprise almost 2/3 of the numerical data points" 

I'm willing to bet the two I identified carry substantial weight. I'd like to see the 100+ variables and specifically, what kind of weight they pull. I wonder where "Political Undermining" came in? Sorry, rhetorical question.

BTW, thanks for posting that though. Good information!


----------



## Tez3

The thought processes of the IOC are convoluted at the best of times, I'm a big fan as are many Europeans of ski jumping, at the last Winter Olympics they wouldn't allow women to compete at this despite their rule of sports being open to men and women. Women's boxing is being allowed this year for the first time though. From what I've heard they are looking to put eventing and dressage out as they are seen as 'elitest' sports available only to the 'rich'. Not showjumping though because that's deemed popular. Perhaps, as with the boxing medals for money scandal, it's the sport that can pay the IOC officials the most that will stay in.


----------



## Gemini

Tez3 said:


> it's the sport that can pay the IOC officials the most that will stay in.


 Ah, good point. There's a viable contender that hasn't been mentioned before. To be knocked out of contention by the big money getters like say, Curling...now that would be devastating.


----------



## Tez3

Gemini said:


> Ah, good point. There's a viable contender that hasn't been mentioned before. To be knocked out of contention by the big money getters like say, Curling...now that would be devastating.



Actually curling is a very popular sport in a lot of places lol! It's played a lot in Scotland as well as a lot of others. Like golf however it may be better played than watched, talking of golf, that's a very big money maker, if it were in the Olympics (please no!) they would have the top names of golf playing. The Olympics seem to be about money, I think the 'popular' sports that bring the big names in such as basketball, tennis and athletics of course are the ones they will look to keep, regardless of TKDs worth or not (depending on opinions) I think it will be looked at in the light of how many tickets it will sell plus how televisual it is to entice the advertisers to buy time while it's on the television. A sport that doesn't attract the television cameras doesn't attract the advertisers.


----------



## puunui

Gemini said:


> I'm willing to bet the two I identified carry substantial weight. I'd like to see the 100+ variables and specifically, what kind of weight they pull. I wonder where "Political Undermining" came in? Sorry, rhetorical question.
> 
> BTW, thanks for posting that though. Good information!



You can find the OPC reports here:

Go to Olympic Programme. Then download these two documents.
The title of the  2009 report is "Report on the 26 Core Sports for the 2016 Games 
<http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Co...mmission/REPORT_26_CORE_SPORTS_2016_GAMES.pdf>"

The title of the 2005 report is "Olympic Programme Commission Report to the  117th IOC Session 
<http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_953.pdf>"

The one for 2013 will determine in part, taekwondo's fate. But you can look at the above two to get a feel of how the process works and what the actual factors are. No need to speculate.


----------



## Gemini

Tez3 said:


> Actually curling is a very popular sport in a lot of places lol!


 I shouldn't have picked on Curling, but it stuck in my mind. My entire family watching this on prime time Olympic TV and laughing at each other while commenting on what a stupid sport it was, but no one changed the channel. Did it again the next night. and the next...It was horrifying!

swooosh.....swish..........swish..............swish..........swish........swish.....swish...swish..swishswishswishswish AHHHH HARRRR! And the crowd goes wild!!!!!!!!!!

How could Taekwondo possibly hope to compare.




Tez3 said:


> A sport that doesn't attract the television cameras doesn't attract the advertisers.


Bingo! Give the lady a prize!


----------



## Tez3

Gemini said:


> I shouldn't have picked on Curling, but it stuck in my mind. My entire family watching this on prime time Olympic TV and laughing at each other while commenting on what a stupid sport it was, but no one changed the channel. Did it again the next night. and the next...It was horrifying!
> 
> swooosh.....swish..........swish..............swish..........swish........swish.....swish...swish..swishswishswishswish AHHHH HARRRR! And the crowd goes wild!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> How could Taekwondo possibly hope to compare.
> 
> 
> Bingo! Give the lady a prize!



LOL, it's definitely something better played than watched I think. I feel that way about golf, can't stand it. I love ski jumping as I said, also Biathlon, Cross country ski-ing in it's different forms, speed skating, luge, skeleton and the bobsleigh events, luckily this are very popular in Europe, it's on the television nearly every day so they should be alright for the Olympics. It attracts the advertisers as does the figure skating, big ahh factor with them, big names too. The ice hockey had huge amount of supporters, perhaps because there's grudge matches USA v Russia that sort of thing plus it's fast, furious and violent. 
I don't know what TKD can do to match sports like this for coverage to make the IOC want to keep it in, it shouldn't be about money but rather like the curling it should be there because people want it there regardless of whether there's big name professionals in it like the tennis, basketball and ice hockey. If it's a sport people want to see and do, it should be in. Do people still play table tennis, it's another 'quiet' Olympic sport, though I imagine if China wants it kept in it will be.

Does TKD have an event in the Para Olympics? I know Judo does.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Tez3 said:


> Actually curling is a very popular sport in a lot of places lol! It's played a lot in Scotland as well as a lot of others. Like golf however it may be better played than watched, talking of golf, that's a very big money maker, if it were in the Olympics (please no!) they would have the top names of golf playing. The Olympics seem to be about money, I think the 'popular' sports that bring the big names in such as basketball, tennis and athletics of course are the ones they will look to keep, regardless of TKDs worth or not (depending on opinions) I think it will be looked at in the light of how many tickets it will sell plus how televisual it is to entice the advertisers to buy time while it's on the television. A sport that doesn't attract the television cameras doesn't attract the advertisers.



You know what...I've been a martial artist for most of my life and competed all over the country as well as in France and I've never broken a bone. Last year I broke my arm curling. Curling, therefore, is more dangerous than WTF Taekwondo or Judo!


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Right, so I don't know how to relay the reality of what is actually happening in the ring to a TV viewer. Even to other Taekwondoin who have never been to an elite event. They see speed and accuracy, but sometime, they imagine there is not much power when in fact the elite WTF athletes generate an enormous among of power on impact, even often knockout opponents with blows to the body, through the hogu. How can that be shown on TV?  I don't think it can.



You make a good point about power, because I've watched a lot of WTF stuff, and even at the Olympic level I don't get a sense that there's a lot power behind the strikes.


----------



## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> It cant, and to someone who doesnt do tkd it just looks like two people playing "foot tag", and leads to the usual questions "why dont they keep their guard up?", "why dont they punch?" "how come they just keep doing roundhouse kicks?" etc etc. As a tkdist, I know the answers to those questions. . .



I would actually appreciate it if you would answer those for me.  ITF sparring makes a lot of sense to me, but WTF I still don't really "get" yet. . .


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> true, i am of the opinion that the UFC caused more dammage to martial arts than any single thing in history.



That's funny, I'm more of the opinion that it provided a great service, in that it shattered a lot of myths and notions that many people had about TMAs.  It was a wake-up call to everyone.


----------



## Twin Fist

rigth there with you spx, i think it looks silly, weak, they are off balance, and either do nothing or throw roundhouse after roundhouse till one falls over.......i dont "get it"


----------



## ETinCYQX

I assure you, having done it for the last 10 years, they're neither off balance nor weak.


----------



## Twin Fist

cant agree, UFC, from the start, was a con game set up to promote one art, bjj, to the detriment of all others.

when the gracies got bought out, in a very real way, it got worse, with "style" ceasing to matter, to the point now where the kids comming up today think that MMA is a style, and worse, since that is all they see, they think it is the ONLY style.....

plus, UFC created the myths that you "have" to have ground training, which is BS, and that BJJ is some superstyle, it isnt.




SPX said:


> That's funny, I'm more of the opinion that it provided a great service, in that it shattered a lot of myths and notions that many people had about TMAs.  It was a wake-up call to everyone.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I would actually appreciate it if you would answer those for me.  ITF sparring makes a lot of sense to me, but WTF I still don't really "get" yet. . .



The idea is to score points with primarily kicks. It is not an mma match or boxing. Think in terms of what it is, instead of comparing it to something else and thinking about what it is not.


----------



## Twin Fist

then why do they all fall over so much?





ETinCYQX said:


> I assure you, having done it for the last 10 years, they're neither off balance nor weak.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> then why do they all fall over so much?



Because they get hit, and because they're playing the game. There's no penalty to go down without getting hit so it becomes a strategy.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> That's funny, I'm more of the opinion that it provided a great service, in that it shattered a lot of myths and notions that many people had about TMAs.  It was a wake-up call to everyone.



I dont think it shattered any myths. It was a promotion for bjj run very well. The fighters were hand picked to make sure the results went the way they wanted. I really dont think getting elite bjj fighters and sticking them in a cage with some part time nobody with a couple of months experience in karate really proves anything. You only have to watch the so called "tkd guys" that "fought" to see there was a set agenda.


----------



## ETinCYQX

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont think it shattered any myths. It was a promotion for bjj run very well. The fighters were hand picked to make sure the results went the way they wanted. I really dont think getting elite bjj fighters and sticking them in a cage with some part time nobody with a couple of months experience in karate really proves anything. You only have to watch the so called "tkd guys" that "fought" to see there was a set agenda.



Kimo came close to beating Royce and actually did knock him out of the tournament.

I'm not disagreeing that Rickson stacked the deck but John McCarthy claims that the only hand picked fight was Royce vs. Art Jimmerson and the rest were legit. I'm inclined to believe him.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> The idea is to score points with primarily kicks. It is not an mma match or boxing. Think in terms of what it is, instead of comparing it to something else and thinking about what it is not.



That still doesn't really answer the questions, though.

I think I know about the guard down, to protect the stomach, which is a major scoring area . . . although more often than not it seems that they don't actually protect anything, they just let their hands dangle at their sides.

Also, punches are allowed, so why don't they use them more?  Seems you could rack up points with good, strong punches to the chest.

And just why ARE there so many roundhouses?  TKD is known for its DIVERSITY of kicks.  Like you said, "think in terms of what it is," so to me that means I should see a wide array of kicks on a regular basis.


----------



## Twin Fist

so it is intentional,,,,,,?



ETinCYQX said:


> Because they get hit, and because they're playing the game. There's no penalty to go down without getting hit so it becomes a strategy.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Yeah some of the time...I don't pretend everything makes sense


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> That still doesn't really answer the questions, though.
> 
> I think I know about the guard down, to protect the stomach, which is a major scoring area . . . although more often than not it seems that they don't actually protect anything, they just let their hands dangle at their sides.
> 
> Also, punches are allowed, so why don't they use them more?  Seems you could rack up points with good, strong punches to the chest.
> 
> And just why ARE there so many roundhouses?  TKD is known for its DIVERSITY of kicks.  Like you said, "think in terms of what it is," so to me that means I should see a wide array of kicks on a regular basis.


Its funny you mention punches. At our club championships last year we used the wtf ruleset but actually scored punches and encouraged them. It was amazing how good it looked, it was awesome to watch and most points were scored by punches. It was also heaps of fun.


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> cant agree, UFC, from the start, was a con game set up to promote one art, bjj, to the detriment of all others.



That's true.  BUT there were some good practitioners in the first events.  Pat Smith was a legit kickboxer.  Ken Shamrock was a well-known submission fighter in Japan.  Gerard Gordeau was a Kyokushin karate champion.  Christoph Leninger was a judo champion.  And so on.  It's not like everyone was just some random dude cherry picked from strip mall karate studios.

I'm certainly no fan of the Gracies.  I actually dislike them as a family.  But I do think that they proved that in order to be a complete fighter you need a legit grappling game.  Love or hate Royce, what he was able to do against proven guys in those early days was impressive.



Twin Fist said:


> in a very real way, it got worse, with "style" ceasing to matter, to the point now where the kids comming up today think that MMA is a style



Mostly true, but not entirely.  Any MMA fan, for instance, knows that Machida is a karate guy, Alistair Overeem comes from Dutch kickboxing, Dong Hyun Kim is a judo guy, and Rousimar Palhares is a BJJ guy.  Styles are still around, but everything requires modification for MMA, regardless of what it is.

Certainly anyone can come from any background--taekwondo, drunken money kung fu, pencak silat, or whatever--and if you can succeed and win then it's not like the sport will shun you.  In fact, the opposite is most likely to happen because you'd be such a novelty.  But the problem is that most guys from traditional backgrounds just haven't been able to adapt and haven't fared well.

Do I like it?  No.  I like the idea of style vs style.  I'd love it if MMA presented lots of well-contested matchups between pure TKDers and karatekas and capoeira dudes and muay Thai guys and wrestlers and BJJ guys etc.  But that's just not the reality and it's not because of any BS about TMAers being "too honorable" or anything like that, as is often alleged. 

As for MMA being a style, at this point it kind of is.  You can go to an MMA gym and sign up for an MMA program and will generally be taught a system of fighting that is a hybrid of muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ, all modified for MMA competition.




Twin Fist said:


> plus, UFC created the myths that you "have" to have ground training, which is BS, and that BJJ is some superstyle, it isnt.



You certainly don't have to have any ground training.  You don't actually need ANY training.  It's not required to be a martial artist at all or to be a good one.  But I can say that, as someone who has studied both TKD and judo, if you have no grappling ability then 9 times out of 10 a judoka will be able to get his hands on you and get you to the ground.  That's just the way it is.  And then the pure striker is probably going to complain about "cheating" and say "no fair" and then throw a fit and take his ball and go home.

Just consider the case of Raymond Daniels.  Karate fighter extraordinaire who has like a million NBL titles and went 18-0 in kickboxing, picking up wins in the WCL and Pro-Taekwondo.  On the feet, he's basically unstoppable, and completely CLOWNS guys and makes them look foolish.  So what did he do?  He went to Strikeforce, fought one MMA fight, got completely embarrassed and choked out by some random dude no one's ever heard of, and he's never fought in MMA since.

But with all that said, I will at least say that you probably don't need a ground game against untrained bar guys who don't know how to fight.  So from a self-defense perspective, yeah, more often than not you can probably get away with it.  But you never know when you're going to run up against a guy who actually has some training.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

ETinCYQX said:


> Kimo came close to beating Royce and actually did knock him out of the tournament.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing that Rickson stacked the deck but John McCarthy claims that the only hand picked fight was Royce vs. Art Jimmerson and the rest were legit. I'm inclined to believe him.



It depends how you define 'hand picked'. Its where you look for fighters. Were any elite, international standard tkd guys asked to fight or did they just go to the local dodgy tkd club and offer "five minutes of fame" to some nobody black belt? Im pretty sure I know the answer.


----------



## SPX

ETinCYQX said:


> Because they get hit, and because they're playing the game. There's no penalty to go down without getting hit so it becomes a strategy.



I will admit that that sounds kind of retarded.  Falling down should never be a strategy and the rules should never encourage such a thing.


----------



## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its funny you mention punches. At our club championships last year we used the wtf ruleset but actually scored punches and encouraged them. It was amazing how good it looked, it was awesome to watch and most points were scored by punches. It was also heaps of fun.



I actually asked my new WTF instructor about this.  I told him that I've heard that punches score on paper, but that in reality the judges never score them.  He said that, at least in the tournaments that his school competes in, that that's not true.  I intend to test this myself once I get some training time under my belt and start competing.  

I imagine that with the electronic hogu punches should start scoring.  Right?


----------



## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> It depends how you define 'hand picked'. Its where you look for fighters. Were any elite, international standard tkd guys asked to fight or did they just go to the local dodgy tkd club and offer "five minutes of fame" to some nobody black belt? Im pretty sure I know the answer.




Well let's look at the very first UFC.

In UFC 1, I actually don't think there were any TKD guys, but there was a karate guy:  Gerard Gordeau.


According to Wikipedia, these are his credentials:



9th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (Budo Kaikan) 
7th dan Sei Budo Kai 
4th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (NKA) 
2nd dan Full-Contact Karate (USA) 
Highest degree Savate (Boxe Francaise) 
4th dan Oyama Karate 
Eight time Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate 
Competed at the World Championships Kyokushin Karate (1979, 1983, 1987) 
Savate World Heavyweight Champion (1991) 
Three time Savate European Heavyweight Champion 

He also had a 27-4 kickboxing record.  Doesn't strike me as some random dude off the street.

 Gordeau actually made it all the way to the finals only to be choked out by Royce in under 2 minutes.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> Well let's look at the very first UFC.
> 
> In UFC 1, I actually don't think there were any TKD guys, but there was a karate guy:  Gerard Gordeau.
> 
> 
> According to Wikipedia, these are his credentials:
> 
> 
> 
> 9th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (Budo Kaikan)
> 7th dan Sei Budo Kai
> 4th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (NKA)
> 2nd dan Full-Contact Karate (USA)
> Highest degree Savate (Boxe Francaise)
> 4th dan Oyama Karate
> Eight time Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate
> Competed at the World Championships Kyokushin Karate (1979, 1983, 1987)
> Savate World Heavyweight Champion (1991)
> Three time Savate European Heavyweight Champion
> 
> He also had a 27-4 kickboxing record.  Doesn't strike me as some random dude off the street.
> 
> Gordeau actually made it all the way to the finals only to be choked out by Royce in under 2 minutes.


He is also only one example. To say the ufc exposed some myths is just too big of a call in my opinion. All it showed me was that if you happen to get into a fight with an elite bjj guy and you dont have a ground game you could be in trouble.  BUT, 1. Thats pretty bloody obvious and most decent instructors would already have told this to their students, and 2. What are the chances of being attacked by some drunk in the pub who happens to be an elite grappling champion.  The guy you mention, gerard gordeu, would feel pretty safe walking the streets at night and would beat the crap out of 99 per cent of guys he'd come accross on the street. I dont think he walked away from ufc saying "oh crap, everything Ive been taught is a myth".


----------



## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> He is also only one example.



I'm not saying there wasn't a mix.  Through UFC 1-5 there were a good handful of random dudes.  But there were also a lot of guys who had accomplished a great deal in their respective styles.  



ralphmcpherson said:


> To say the ufc exposed some myths is just too big of a call in my opinion. All it showed me was that if you happen to get into a fight with an elite bjj guy and you dont have a ground game you could be in trouble.



The thing about grappling is that any fight can devolve into a brawl and end up on the ground.  So what I think it showed us is that it's important to have at least a strong basic grappling game if you want to be a complete fighter and handle yourself in all ranges of combat.



ralphmcpherson said:


> BUT, 1. Thats pretty bloody obvious and most decent instructors would already have told this to their students



Well at least in terms of BJJ, I think a lot of guys--even martial arts instructors--had never even heard of it.  But I do think that your point stands in regard to grappling in general.  



ralphmcpherson said:


> 2. What are the chances of being attacked by some drunk in the pub who happens to be an elite grappling champion.



Not good, so I agree that if we're talking purely about self-defense against untrained assailants, then yeah, you'll probably be fine even if all you've done is a striking art.



ralphmcpherson said:


> The guy you mention, gerard gordeu, would feel pretty safe walking the streets at night and would beat the crap out of 99 per cent of guys he'd come accross on the street.



Oh, no doubt.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont think he walked away from ufc saying "oh crap, everything Ive been taught is a myth".



No, I think he probably walked away saying, "I have a hole in my game."


----------



## SPX

I'll also point out that I'm obviously not saying that striking is not  good.  I actually prefer it.  I'm only saying that I believe it's  foolish to not respect the need for grappling, just as I feel that it's foolish for a grappler to not respect the need for striking.


----------



## ETinCYQX

SPX said:


> I will admit that that sounds kind of retarded.  Falling down should never be a strategy and the rules should never encourage such a thing.



Dunno if the rules encourage it so much as "don't forbid it". It eliminates the chance for a counter anyway.


----------



## SPX

I've heard that WTF sparring is supposed to show off the "beauty" of TKD, and if that's the case, then there doesn't need to be anything that looks random or ugly like falling down.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I've heard that WTF sparring is supposed to show off the "beauty" of TKD, and if that's the case, then there doesn't need to be anything that looks random or ugly like falling down.



My suggestion then is that you lead by example and don't fall down when you are competing under the WTF rules. By the way, there are penalties for intentional falling.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

"Not good, so I agree that if we're talking purely about self-defense against untrained assailants, then yeah, you'll probably be fine even if all you've done is a striking art."
and the reason most people do martial arts is to learn to defend themselves, not to fight proffessionally. 


"No, I think he probably walked away saying, "I have a hole in my game." 
which is such a "sports" thing to say, and yes, as far as sport goes he has a hole in his game. As far as self defence goes, I think he'd handle himself just fine. The gracies would have you believe that without a ground game you are screwed, and if you are talking purely sport, then they are probably right. Outside of the ring, I dont agree. Watch a good boxer get in a street fight, their lack of 'ground game' doesnt seem too much of a problem. Im still not seeing any 'myths' that the UFC uncovered.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> I've heard that WTF sparring is supposed to show off the "beauty" of TKD, and if that's the case, then there doesn't need to be anything that looks random or ugly like falling down.


Its "beautiful" to other wtf tkdists, but to the untrained eye I dont think 'beautiful' springs to mind. Its a personal taste thing really. For me Ive sparred wtf rules and itf rules and itf rules are heaps more fun, but then I like punching.


----------



## Markku P

ralphmcpherson said:


> and the reason most people do martial arts is to learn to defend themselves, not to fight proffessionally. [/COLOR]



Self defense has been least important part for my students. They like sparring training, focus mitts and that they can train with their families. But most of them won't compete at all.

/Markku P


----------



## Twin Fist

"Self defense has been least important part for my students"

seriously?


----------



## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> and the reason most people do martial arts is to learn to defend themselves, not to fight proffessionally.



Well like I said you'll PROBABLY be fine.

Then again, it's not like no one's doing martial arts.  Sometimes it seems like I can't even go to the bar anymore without bumping into at least 5 guys in Affliction shirts who "train UFC."  On top of that one needs only look at a forum like this one to realize that people are out there who do train and have training and not all of them are going to have good intentions.  So while I'm sure we both agree that MOST people in the world are untrained, it's kind of a roll of the dice to just assume it about any individual.

Also, I sometimes think standup fighters underestimate a real fight's ability to inexplicably end up on the ground.  Sure, most of the time you can use your speed and distancing to keep it up right, but it's really not that hard for someone to get within clinch range and get their hands on you, which often leads to two guys rolling around on the ground.  I know that if that happens I want to have the skills reverse position if I'm on the bottom or maintain position if I'm on top.


----------



## Markku P

Twin Fist said:


> "
> 
> seriously?


 Yes! We have lot kids and families and they has told me that. I have also spoke with many other instructors (WTF & ITF) and many of them agree with me. I think Taekwondo is MUCH more than self defense.


----------



## SPX

On the subject of common WTF criticisms, such as being boring, not throwing punches, falling down, and using only roundhouses, I submit the following video.

It's a ITF guy competing against a WTF guy under WTF rules.  As you'll see, the ITF guys uses a wide range of attacks.  And even though it's at a slow, tactical pace, I didn't find the match boring at all.  

Despite the fact that it's under the WTF ruleset, the guy more fully implementing TKD's arsenal wins!


----------



## Twin Fist

this no punches to the head thing is....................sorry cant be nice abot it, no punches to the head rule is retarded.


----------



## Tez3

Twin Fist said:


> this no punches to the head thing is....................sorry cant be nice abot it, no punches to the head rule is retarded.



As opposed to punches to the head leaving you retarded from brain damage?


----------



## Twin Fist

this is much more impressive to me :





than this is:


----------



## Twin Fist

oh please. YOU ought to know better



Tez3 said:


> As opposed to punches to the head leaving you retarded from brain damage?


----------



## Twin Fist

this was a good match, the red player was clearly superior, an if not for the retarded no head punches rule, he would have knocked that blue out in short order. those punches had some pepper on 'em



SPX said:


> On the subject of common WTF criticisms, such as being boring, not throwing punches, falling down, and using only roundhouses, I submit the following video.
> 
> It's a ITF guy competing against a WTF guy under WTF rules.  As you'll see, the ITF guys uses a wide range of attacks.  And even though it's at a slow, tactical pace, I didn't find the match boring at all.
> 
> Despite the fact that it's under the WTF ruleset, the guy more fully implementing TKD's arsenal wins!


----------



## Tez3

Twin Fist said:


> oh please. YOU ought to know better




so you don't get brain damage from repeated hits to the head?

How old were the TKDist in the video? In MMA we have a no head shot rule for under 16's. Plenty of time when they are older to have head shots and then sparingly.


----------



## Twin Fist

i think it takes a lifetime of head shots to produce any serious effects. Hell, boxers do nothing BUT get hit in the head, and it is rare even then to notice any neurological effects.

when you got gloves AND headgear on?

not a concern IMO


----------



## Tez3

Twin Fist said:


> i think it takes a lifetime of head shots to produce any serious effects. Hell, boxers do nothing BUT get hit in the head, and it is rare even then to notice any neurological effects.
> 
> when you got gloves AND headgear on?
> 
> not a concern IMO




We've had discussions on here about this subject with plenty of proof to say headshots do cause damage, it's too serious a subject to gloss over here apart from derailing the thread.
Being contrary is only droll for so long then it's boring.


----------



## Twin Fist

can it cause dammage? sure

does it cause dammage to everyone? of course not

YOU are the one being contrary


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> this no punches to the head thing is....................sorry cant be nice abot it, no punches to the head rule is retarded.



I agree, more or less.  But I think what I find much more disturbing is no punching at all.  I get excited any time I see a WTF practitioner at least utilizing body punches because that's much better than doing nothing but kicks.  

BTW, I'm curious to know what you think of Kyokushin's ruleset. . .?


----------



## Twin Fist

they allow leg kicks, head kicks, punches to the body, knees too if i remember right, but no punches to the head, right?

thats retarded too.

here is the thing, if you are worried about safety? dont allow kicks to the head, those when they manage to land, carry a lot more force and can do a lot more dammage than any hand technique

there is no reason to allow kicks to the head but NOT allow punches to the head.

well, other than trying to avoid broken knuckles.....


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> this is much more impressive to me :
> 
> . . .
> 
> than this is:



Good stuff.  Really like that ITF vid.  Though to be fair, you compared a highlight to a full match which isn't really an accurate comparison.

Something like this Steve Vick vid that I posted the other day might be a bit better to represent the WTF:


----------



## ETinCYQX

...Why Creed


----------



## SPX

What?


----------



## Twin Fist

impressive kicking skills.


----------



## ETinCYQX

SPX said:


> What?



The soundtrack to the Steve Vick WTF highlight is a Creed song. odd choice for a combat sport


----------



## SPX

Oh.  Is it?  I thought it was Pearl Jam.  Not that I listen to either.

And yeah, all of Vick's highlight vids have weird musical choices.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> Oh.  Is it?  I thought it was Pearl Jam.  Not that I listen to either.
> 
> And yeah, all of Vick's highlight vids have weird musical choices.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.


Yeah thats pearl jam.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> Good stuff.  Really like that ITF vid.  Though to be fair, you compared a highlight to a full match which isn't really an accurate comparison.
> 
> Something like this Steve Vick vid that I posted the other day might be a bit better to represent the WTF:


Isnt steve vick an aussie, or at least started tkd here? If he's the guy Im thinking of he trained at a club just up the road from me.


----------



## SPX

He is.  The dude's incredible.

Please see my thread for more vids:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100328-TKD-Kickboxer-Steve-Vick


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> He is.  The dude's incredible.
> 
> Please see my thread for more vids:
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100328-TKD-Kickboxer-Steve-Vick


when did he go wtf? The club he learnt tkd at is a great club, but they are independent.


----------



## SPX

That's interesting.  I really can't find much info about him.  I just kind of stumbled upon his videos by accident.

I did find this channel on YouTube, though.  I'm guessing it belongs to him, but who knows.

http://www.youtube.com/user/svickutubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/svickutube


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> when did he go wtf? The club he learnt tkd at is a great club, but they are independent.



Many independent Taekwondoin compete in the WTF.  No one "goes" WTF, it is a public (not a private) tournament circuit.  As for Mr. Vick, obviously he has some skill, obviously the guys he's fighting, do not. So, nothing impressive about the video at all, unless one likes to see a very unskilled persons getting the heck beat out of them by a marginally skilled person.  Do you have any of his elite level matches?


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> As for Mr. Vick, obviously he has some skill, obviously the guys he's fighting, do not. So, nothing impressive about the video at all, unless one likes to see a very unskilled persons getting the heck beat out of them by a marginally skilled person.



To be fair, a highly skilled fighter can make other fighters look like amateurs.  I can't remember who the boxer was--I think Roy Jones Jr.--who said about his opponents, "They weren't nobodies . . . I just made them look like nobodies."  You could be right about Vick's competition in that vid, but a lot of people would probably say the same about Forrest Griffin after he got dominated by Anderson Silva.

Also, Vick's kickboxing career should be more than enough to show you that he has more than "some skill."  He was, in fact, quite skilled and won many titles and championships both in kickboxing and TKD.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> To be fair, a highly skilled fighter can make other fighters look like amateurs.  I can't remember who the boxer was--I think Roy Jones Jr.--who said about his opponents, "They weren't nobodies . . . I just made them look like nobodies."  You could be right about Vick's competition in that vid, but a lot of people would probably say the same about Forrest Griffin after he got dominated by Anderson Silva.
> 
> Also, Vick's kickboxing career should be more than enough to show you that he has more than "some skill."  He was, in fact, quite skilled and won many titles and championships both in kickboxing and TKD.



For decades I have watched more elite world level fights, ringside, at the edge of the mat to know, those people vick was fighting were unskilled. He was not shutting down "elite" fighters, he was being brutal against untrained, unskilled and unseasoned people.  In addition to being unimpressive, it is ethically wrong, and shameful if you ask me. On his part, and especially his coach. I would never tolerate an elite fighter on my team, realizing he WAY outclassed his opponent, to go in for the knockout like that.  It's a 100% disgrace.

Show me video where he is fighting other elite fighters, not some backyard local school kids, or were those he so-called famous title fights?


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> For decades I have watched more elite world level fights, ringside, at the edge of the mat to know, those people vick was fighting were unskilled. He was not shutting down "elite" fighters, he was being brutal against untrained, unskilled and unseasoned people.  In addition to being unimpressive, it is ethically wrong, and shameful if you ask me. One his part, and especially his coach. I would never tolerate an elite fighter on my team, realizing he WAY outclassed his opponent, to go in for the knockout like that.  It's a 100% disgrace.



Wow.  Such strong emotions.  In TKD, isn't the system such that only similarly ranked competitors should be going against each other?  I mean, you're not going to have a black belt fighting a white belt.  Also, do you usually know the skill level of whoever you're competing against?  Seems to me that the goal is to win, by KO if possible, and that's what he did.



mastercole said:


> Show me video where he is fighting other elite fighters, not some backyard local school kids, or were those he so-called famous title fights?



I can't find a lot of TKD footage of his, but here's a good kickboxing bout:










And hey, here's a close-fought back and forth loss. . .



















Your thoughts?


----------



## Twin Fist

you need to learn to show a little respect

he fought that silly little wtf game, and dominated it

he went to PROFESSIONAL fighting and again, dominated.

how many so called elite wtf kickboxers go pro? not many, cuz you aint gotta be very good to be the best the wtf has. you just gotta know how to fall over after you kick

pfft
he's  a bad ***.

and i have NEVER said that about any wtf fighter

Steve &#8220;Superkick&#8221; Vick was fantastic fighter who transitioned from Taekwondo to American style Kickboxing in the early 90s. He won the national Taekwondo championship 5 times and then went onto win the ISKA World Title in 1994. After winning he retired and went into the world of business however his kicking technique is legendary.

and that was in an era where the technical skills were nowhere near as well developed as they are now.

Steve Superkick Vick successfully made the transition from Taekwondo to Kickboxing collecting the following titles along the way: 4 times State Taekwondo Champion, 5 times National Taekwondo Champion, State Kickboxing Champion, National Kickboxing Champion, South Pacific Kickboxing Champion, Commonwealth Kickboxing Champion (Welterweight & Super-Welterweight), Intercontinental Kickboxing Champion, World Kickboxing Champion. Steve retired from Kickboxing in 1994 after winning the super-welterweight world title.




yeah, no skill.

whatever


mastercole said:


> For decades I have watched more elite world level fights, ringside, at the edge of the mat to know, those people vick was fighting were unskilled. He was not shutting down "elite" fighters, he was being brutal against untrained, unskilled and unseasoned people.  In addition to being unimpressive, it is ethically wrong, and shameful if you ask me. On his part, and especially his coach. I would never tolerate an elite fighter on my team, realizing he WAY outclassed his opponent, to go in for the knockout like that.  It's a 100% disgrace.
> 
> Show me video where he is fighting other elite fighters, not some backyard local school kids, or were those he so-called famous title fights?


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Wow.  Such strong emotions.  In TKD, isn't the system such that only similarly ranked competitors should be going against each other?  I mean, you're not going to have a black belt fighting a white belt.  Also, do you usually know the skill level of whoever you're competing against?  Seems to me that the goal is to win, by KO if possible, and that's what he did.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't find a lot of TKD footage of his, but here's a good kickboxing bout:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And hey, here's a close-fought back and forth loss. . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your thoughts?



At least in these matches he is fighting guys who fight back, but still no where near elite fighters. But then again, neither is Mr. Vick.  The only think I see here is Mr. Vicks and his opponents massive self agrandized egos on display, some kind of big time wrestling WWF kickboxing mix.


----------



## Twin Fist

i get it now, no wonder mastercole doesnt think vick is any good

vick never falls down......

thats a clear sign of failure in a WTF guy.........


/eyeroll


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> At least in these matches he is fighting guys who fight back, but still no where near elite fighters. But then again, neither is Mr. Vick.  The only think I see here is Mr. Vicks and his opponents massive self agrandized egos on display, some kind of big time wrestling WWF kickboxing mix.



Dude, are you for real?  Not elite fighters why?  Because they aren't throwing 540 kicks?  

Not only was Vick a TKD champ in Australia but he went on to capture a belt in the ISKA.  

I have to agree with Twin Fist on this one, you really need to show some respect.  Vick is a legend.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> Dude, are you for real?  Not elite fighters why?  Because they aren't throwing 540 kicks?
> 
> Not only was Vick a TKD champ in Australia but he went on to capture a belt in the ISKA.
> 
> I have to agree with Twin Fist on this one, you really need to show some respect.  Vick is a legend.


 You are dead right SPX. Steve vick wasnt elite? now Ive heard it all. Thats just laughable. My old instructor grew up and trained with the guy, and he saw steve kick many an "elite" fighters ***.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Dude, are you for real?  Not elite fighters why?  Because they aren't throwing 540 kicks?
> 
> Not only was Vick a TKD champ in Australia but he went on to capture a belt in the ISKA.
> 
> I have to agree with Twin Fist on this one, you really need to show some respect.  Vick is a legend.




Maybe he is elite in ISKA and kickboxing, who cares, I thought he was a Taekwondo guy, what did he achieve in Taekwondo, nothing? This is the Taekwondo board, not the ISKA or kickboxing board, so, again, who cares, not me. 

It's obvious to me he (and his coach) has twisted ethics, and no, I have no respect for that kind of thing. When one competes against an opponent one clearly out classes, in a rinky dink tournament, which is most of what he was fighting in in the first video you posted, you do just what you have to in order to dominate your opponent.  You don't take advantage of their total lack of skill and experience, going in for the knockout. 

Even in he Olympics, the pinnacle of martial arts competitions, American Steven Lopez showed good judgement by not knocking out the Iraqi fighter, whom Steven clearly out classed. Steve did just what he needed to do in order to defeat him, not injure him unnecessarily.

Then in the later videos he is running around in those "rhinestone cowboy" redneck fringe batman cape outfits, ridiculous.  But if you like that kind of thing, beating up on the unskilled, raising ones arms high in victory having defeated the weak, adorning oneself in foolish clothes, go for it.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Maybe he is elite in ISKA and kickboxing, who cares, I thought he was a Taekwondo guy, what did he achieve in Taekwondo, nothing? This is the Taekwondo board, not the ISKA or kickboxing board, so, again, who cares, not me.
> 
> It's obvious to me he (and his coach) has twisted ethics, and no, I have no respect for that kind of thing. When one competes against an opponent one clearly out classes, in a rinky dink tournament, which is most of what he was fighting in in the first video you posted, you do just what you have to in order to dominate your opponent.  You don't take advantage of their total lack of skill and experience, going in for the knockout.
> 
> Even in he Olympics, the pinnacle of martial arts competitions, American Steven Lopez showed good judgement by not knocking out the Iraqi fighter, whom Steven clearly out classed. Steve did just what he needed to do in order to defeat him, not injure him unnecessarily.
> 
> Then in the later videos he is running around in those "rhinestone cowboy" redneck fringe batman cape outfits, ridiculous.  But if you like that kind of thing, beating up on the unskilled, raising ones arms high in victory having defeated the weak, adorning oneself in foolish clothes, go for it.


I know he did very well in independent tournaments, I have no idea what he did once wtf, but you dont have to be wtf to be elite. I know you say wtf tournaments are 'open' but really, if you dont train that style then why would you enter? MMA tourneys are 'open' but Im not about to enter because I dont train MMA, just as wtf tourneys may be open but realistically no one from where I train (for instance) would enter because we dont know the rules. I cant comment on his wtf career (because I didnt know he had one), but believe it or not there are thousands of "elite" tkdists training in independent clubs that you would never even know about. Steve fought some very formidable opponents and wiped the floor with them.


----------



## mastercole

"Vick was the Taekwondo National Champion of Australia five times in a row. Not satisfied with dominating the Australian Taekwondo circuit, he moved on to kickboxing. Vick easily brushed the competition aside, becoming State Kickboxing Champion, then National Kickboxing Champion. Setting his sights on the rest of the world, Vick entered the international spotlight. Soon he was crowned the Commonwealth Kickboxing Champion, then the Intercontinental Champion, until, finally, he fought his way to become the World Kickboxing Champion in 1994."

Now don't take it personal, I know some people might actually have some kind of hero worship/admiration/infatuation thing going on for this guy, but let's get past that and look at the facts.

Looks to me like he might have bailed, avoiding world level international Taekwondo competition, or did he get eliminated at team trials?  Taekwondo competitions get very tough, difficult and dangerous at the international level. It's why some people today, turn tale jump into American style this or that, keeping that big fish in the small pond status for their fans.

So, was he 5 time Australian WTF National Champion?   Or something else.............


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> I know he did very well in independent tournaments, I have no idea what he did once wtf, but you dont have to be wtf to be elite. I know you say wtf tournaments are 'open' but really, if you dont train that style then why would you enter? MMA tourneys are 'open' but Im not about to enter because I dont train MMA, just as wtf tourneys may be open but realistically no one from where I train (for instance) would enter because we dont know the rules. I cant comment on his wtf career (because I didnt know he had one), but believe it or not there are thousands of "elite" tkdists training in independent clubs that you would never even know about. Steve fought some very formidable opponents and wiped the floor with them.



He clearly knows how to fight according to WTF rules, he's doing it in the videos, against untrained novices. But Steve could not wipe the floor with elite international Taekwondo fighters. Maybe that is why he chose to bail out and keep his ego going, or did he loose in Australian WTF team trials?  Let's research that and see what we come up with.

After all, this is an Olympic Taekwondo thread.  Let's keep on subject.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> "Vick was the Taekwondo National Champion of Australia five times in a row. Not satisfied with dominating the Australian Taekwondo circuit, he moved on to kickboxing. Vick easily brushed the competition aside, becoming State Kickboxing Champion, then National Kickboxing Champion. Setting his sights on the rest of the world, Vick entered the international spotlight. Soon he was crowned the Commonwealth Kickboxing Champion, then the Intercontinental Champion, until, finally, he fought his way to become the World Kickboxing Champion in 1994."
> 
> Now don't take it personal, I know some people might actually have some kind of hero worship/admiration/infatuation thing going on for this guy, but let's get past that and look at the facts.
> 
> Looks to me like he might have bailed, avoiding world level international Taekwondo competition, or did he get eliminated at team trials?  Taekwondo competitions get very tough, difficult and dangerous at the international level. It's why some people today, turn tale jump into American style this or that, keeping that big fish in the small pond status for their fans.
> 
> So, was he 5 time Australian WTF National Champion?   Or something else.............


Yeah, because everybody is terrified of competing in wtf events:uhohh::uhohh: . It sometimes comes accross that some of the wtf fan boys think that the only "elite" fighters out there fight in wtf comps. I have the most respect for wtf fighters but to suggest that guys change over to kickboxing because the "tkd comps get too tough" is just ridiculous. Its usually the other way around , where tkd fighters go and join kickboxing/muay thai/mma to expand what they know and fight where the rules allow for more techs ie face punches. We are talking about steve vick here, I cant even believe I had to dignify what was said with a response.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Some info I found-            Steve "super kick" Vick masterd Taekwondo and took those  skills with him to Kickboxing. Steve was a 4 time State Taekwondo  Champion, 5 time National Taekwondo Champion,going into Kickboxing he  Dominated,earning State Kickboxing Champion, National Kickboxing  Champion, South Pacific Kickboxing Champion, Commonwealth Kickboxing  Champion Welterweight and Super Welterweight Intercontinental Champion  and in 1994 he won the World Kickboxing Champion tittle,then retired.  Vick's fight with Hector Pena was voted the best fight in Australian  Kickboxing History, reported by International Kickboxer Magazine.He is  now retired and lives in Australia.  Id be pretty happy with that cv. Five times national tkd champion, I dont think the going got too tough in tkd by the sounds of that. Sounds more like he was looking for a new challenge or possibly more money. I know over here (particularly back then) there was more money in kickboxing world title fights than in tkd comps. He went on to be world kickboxing champion, I think he retired pretty happy with his achievments and I find it funny that people who have achieved nothing compared to him can jump on the internet and question what they achieved. When you have achieved even half what he has I may be interested in your opinion. I dont mean to offend, but in all walks of life it really irritates me when keyboard warriors take aim at people who achieved elite staus in whatever they did. And yes, I do consider "national tkd champion" to mean "elite". I'll put it this way, if someone who is national tkd champion 5 times is not considered "elite" in your books, what must one achieve to be considered "elite"? Im imagining by your definition there are only a handful of elite tkdists in the world.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Yeah, because everybody is terrified of competing in wtf events:uhohh::uhohh: . It sometimes comes accross that some of the wtf fan boys think that the only "elite" fighters out there fight in wtf comps. I have the most respect for wtf fighters but to suggest that guys change over to kickboxing because the "tkd comps get too tough" is just ridiculous. Its usually the other way around , where tkd fighters go and join kickboxing/muay thai/mma to expand what they know and fight where the rules allow for more techs ie face punches. We are talking about steve vick here, I cant even believe I had to dignify what was said with a response.



Not everyone, in fact the greatest number of Taekwondo fighters in the world compete in the WTF circuit, which is open to everyone, regardless of martial arts style. I know quite a few that did not turn tale and run the other way. They ended up as true Taekwondo World Champions, and Olympians. What is Steve's story?

By the way, I noticed on Moon Lee's website that he teaches Kukkiwon curriculum. Form what I remember, many, many, and many more "ex-Kukkiwon" guys supposedly flocked to Moon Lee's for non-Kukkiwon training. Is there some secret curriculum not posted on his site?


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Some info I found-
> 
> Steve "super kick" Vick masterd Taekwondo and took those  skills with him to Kickboxing. Steve was a 4 time State Taekwondo  Champion, 5 time National Taekwondo Champion,going into Kickboxing he  Dominated,earning State Kickboxing Champion, National Kickboxing  Champion, South Pacific Kickboxing Champion, Commonwealth Kickboxing  Champion Welterweight and Super Welterweight Intercontinental Champion  and in 1994 he won the World Kickboxing Champion tittle,then retired.  Vick's fight with Hector Pena was voted the best fight in Australian  Kickboxing History, reported by International Kickboxer Magazine.He is  now retired and lives in Australia.
> 
> Id be pretty happy with that cv. Five times national tkd champion, I dont think the going got too tough in tkd by the sounds of that. Sounds more like he was looking for a new challenge. He went on to be world kickboxing champion, I think he retired pretty happy with his achievments and I find it funny that people who have achieved nothing compared to him can jump on the internet and question what they achieved. When you have achieved even half what he has I may be interested in your opinion. I dont mean to offend, but in all walks of life it really irritates me when keyboard warriors take aim at people who achieved elite staus in whatever they did. And yes, I do consider "national tkd champion" to mean "elite".



I say he turned tale and ran to a lesser group, where he could take his "WTF" skills and defeat the lesser skilled opponents, like he had been doing up to the point of now facing international level Taekwondo competition, that would truly test him.  Big fish, small pond.


----------



## mastercole

Let's get back to talking about Olympic Taekwondo, what this thread was about, who cares about ISKA or Kickboxing, go post on those boards if you want to talk about that kind of low level thing.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Not everyone, in fact the greatest number of Taekwondo fighters in the world compete in the WTF circuit, which is open to everyone, regardless of martial arts style. I know quite a few that did not turn tale and run the other way. They ended up as true Taekwondo World Champions, and Olympians. What is Steve's story?
> 
> By the way, I noticed on Moon Lee's website that he teaches Kukkiwon curriculum. Form what I remember, many, many, and many more "ex-Kukkiwon" guys supposedly flocked to Moon Lee's for non-Kukkiwon training. Is there some secret curriculum not posted on his site?


Who is moon lee? If you are referring to the moon lee over here in australia, I have no idea as I havent trained there. I had a lot of mates who trained there in high school, he has schools all over the place. I thought they were kkw.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Some info I found-            Steve "super kick" Vick masterd Taekwondo and took those  skills with him to Kickboxing. Steve was a 4 time State Taekwondo  Champion, 5 time National Taekwondo Champion,going into Kickboxing he  Dominated,earning State Kickboxing Champion, National Kickboxing  Champion, South Pacific Kickboxing Champion, Commonwealth Kickboxing  Champion Welterweight and Super Welterweight Intercontinental Champion  and in 1994 he won the World Kickboxing Champion tittle,then retired.  Vick's fight with Hector Pena was voted the best fight in Australian  Kickboxing History, reported by International Kickboxer Magazine.He is  now retired and lives in Australia.  Id be pretty happy with that cv. Five times national tkd champion, I dont think the going got too tough in tkd by the sounds of that. Sounds more like he was looking for a new challenge or possibly more money. I know over here (particularly back then) there was more money in kickboxing world title fights than in tkd comps. He went on to be world kickboxing champion, I think he retired pretty happy with his achievments and I find it funny that people who have achieved nothing compared to him can jump on the internet and question what they achieved. When you have achieved even half what he has I may be interested in your opinion. I dont mean to offend, but in all walks of life it really irritates me when keyboard warriors take aim at people who achieved elite staus in whatever they did. And yes, I do consider "national tkd champion" to mean "elite". I'll put it this way, if someone who is national tkd champion 5 times is not considered "elite" in your books, what must one achieve to be considered "elite"? Im imagining by your definition there are only a handful of elite tkdists in the world.



This is an Olympic Taekwondo thread, no one cares about his karate or kickboxing record. Get it?  And no, he is not an elite level competitor in Taekwondo unless he is competing in international, world level Taekwondo events.

Again, you say 5 times National Taekwondo Champion, in what?  Joe's back yard Taekwondo World Championships, or something big, like the Australian WTF Nationals?  Which is it?  I figure you would know since you know all about his ISKA record, which does not have anything to do with Taekwondo, again, what this thread is about.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> This is an Olympic Taekwondo thread, no one cares about his karate or kickboxing record. Get it?  And no, he is not an elite level competitor in Taekwondo unless he is competing in international, world level Taekwondo events.
> 
> Again, you say 5 times National Taekwondo Champion, in what?  Joe's back yard Taekwondo World Championships, or something big, like the Australian WTF Nationals?  Which is it?  I figure you would know since you know all about his ISKA record, which does not have anything to do with Taekwondo, again, what this thread is about.


No, he never competed in "joe's backyard tkd championships" due to injury. Im hoping to enter this year though.


----------



## Tez3

I think one of the purposes of the Olympics is to spread the 'word' about sport and to encourage ordinary people to have a go, for this reason it would be a shame if TKD went out. Martial arts is one of those activities that are easy for people to do in that basically you need an instructor and a bit of a space, outside even. You don't need any particular weather conditions like winter sports, you don't need expensive kit like golf, BMX etc uniforms are nice but not necessary. It's accessible for the people. Of course you need money to get into top class competitions but as an activity that does a lot of good, ie fitness, confidence etc martial arts are brilliant.


----------



## Twin Fist

4 times State Taekwondo Champion, 5 times National Taekwondo Champion



mastercole said:


> Maybe he is elite in ISKA and kickboxing, who cares, I thought he was a Taekwondo guy, what did he achieve in Taekwondo, nothing? This is the Taekwondo board, not the ISKA or kickboxing board, so, again, who cares, not me.
> 
> It's obvious to me he (and his coach) has twisted ethics, and no, I have no respect for that kind of thing. When one competes against an opponent one clearly out classes, in a rinky dink tournament, which is most of what he was fighting in in the first video you posted, you do just what you have to in order to dominate your opponent.  You don't take advantage of their total lack of skill and experience, going in for the knockout.
> 
> Even in he Olympics, the pinnacle of martial arts competitions, American Steven Lopez showed good judgement by not knocking out the Iraqi fighter, whom Steven clearly out classed. Steve did just what he needed to do in order to defeat him, not injure him unnecessarily.
> 
> Then in the later videos he is running around in those "rhinestone cowboy" redneck fringe batman cape outfits, ridiculous.  But if you like that kind of thing, beating up on the unskilled, raising ones arms high in victory having defeated the weak, adorning oneself in foolish clothes, go for it.




your Lopez love is showing.


----------



## Twin Fist

if mastercole's posts are a indication of the typical attitude of the brass in the wtf, it is no wonder the olympics are kicking it out.


----------



## Tez3

Twin Fist said:


> if mastercole's posts are a indication of the typical attitude *of the brass *in the wtf, it is no wonder the olympics are kicking it out.




The money?


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Maybe he is elite in ISKA and kickboxing, who cares, I thought he was a Taekwondo guy



Yep, TKD guy who went into kickboxing.




mastercole said:


> what did he achieve in Taekwondo, nothing?



Well first off, his state and national Australian credentials have already been mentioned.  Second, so if you don't have an international accomplishment to list then you've accomplished "nothing" in the sport?  Are you also the kind of guy who kicks little kids and tells them how worthless they are because they didn't take home the biggest trophy?




mastercole said:


> It's obvious to me he (and his coach) has twisted ethics, and no, I have no respect for that kind of thing. When one competes against an opponent one clearly out classes, in a rinky dink tournament, which is most of what he was fighting in in the first video you posted, you do just what you have to in order to dominate your opponent.  You don't take advantage of their total lack of skill and experience, going in for the knockout.



Not sure what kind of tournaments you frequent, but in all the "rinky dink" martial arts tournaments that I've been to you don't get a dossier on your opponent and a video tape with fight footage.  In fact, you probably know nothing about him.  It's just the random guy that's been put in front of you and you compete against him to the best of your ability.




mastercole said:


> Even in he Olympics, the pinnacle of martial arts competitions, American Steven Lopez showed good judgement by not knocking out the Iraqi fighter, whom Steven clearly out classed. Steve did just what he needed to do in order to defeat him, not injure him unnecessarily.



Sounds risky.  Even against fighters that you outclass, the right kick landed in the right place will put you out.  By not finishing the fight you are leaving your opponent opportunities to land that "flukey" shot and win the match.




mastercole said:


> Then in the later videos he is running around in those "rhinestone cowboy" redneck fringe batman cape outfits . . . adorning oneself in foolish clothes, go for it.



It was the 80s/early-90s . . . and it was awesome.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Let's get back to talking about Olympic Taekwondo, what this thread was about, who cares about ISKA or Kickboxing, go post on those boards if you want to talk about *that kind of low level thing*.



Oh, I get it now . . . you're trolling . . . 

Well carry on then.


----------



## SPX

Tez3 said:


> The money?



The top officials. . .


----------



## Tez3

SPX said:


> The top officials. . .




That's the 'top brass', the brass is money, either way it was a post that really wasn't nice.


----------



## SPX

Tez3 said:


> That's the 'top brass', the brass is money, either way it was a post that really wasn't nice.



Well it's the only use of the term that makes sense in the context of the sentence.

In any case, have you read "mastercoles" posts?  They also aren't very nice.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Maybe he is elite in ISKA and kickboxing, who cares, I thought he was a Taekwondo guy, what did he achieve in Taekwondo, nothing? This is the Taekwondo board, not the ISKA or kickboxing board, so, again, who cares, not me.
> 
> It's obvious to me he (and his coach) has twisted ethics, and no, I have no respect for that kind of thing. When one competes against an opponent one clearly out classes, in a rinky dink tournament, which is most of what he was fighting in in the first video you posted, you do just what you have to in order to dominate your opponent.  *You don't take advantage of their total lack of skill and experience, going in for the knockout. *
> 
> Even in he Olympics, the pinnacle of martial arts competitions, American Steven Lopez showed good judgement by not knocking out the Iraqi fighter, whom Steven clearly out classed. Steve did just what he needed to do in order to defeat him, not injure him unnecessarily.
> 
> Then in the later videos he is running around in those "rhinestone cowboy" redneck fringe batman cape outfits, ridiculous.  But if you like that kind of thing, beating up on the unskilled, raising ones arms high in victory having defeated the weak, adorning oneself in foolish clothes, go for it.



Yes, you sure as hell do. Most of what makes a fighter good is the "killer instinct" or will to win. Did you consider Steven didn't knock the Iraqi fighter out because he didn't manage to?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> Yep, TKD guy who went into kickboxing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well first off, his state and national Australian credentials have already been mentioned.  Second, so if you don't have an international accomplishment to list then you've accomplished "nothing" in the sport?  Are you also the kind of guy who kicks little kids and tells them how worthless they are because they didn't take home the biggest trophy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what kind of tournaments you frequent, but in all the "rinky dink" martial arts tournaments that I've been to you don't get a dossier on your opponent and a video tape with fight footage.  In fact, you probably know nothing about him.  It's just the random guy that's been put in front of you and you compete against him to the best of your ability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds risky.  Even against fighters that you outclass, the right kick landed in the right place will put you out.  By not finishing the fight you are leaving your opponent opportunities to land that "flukey" shot and win the match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was the 80s/early-90s . . . and it was awesome.


exactly right. Another thing to consider is that highlights reels can be taken out of context because you dont see the whole fight. I wonder if in 20 years someone will be watching an aaron cook highlights reel and see the kick where he knocked lopez senseless and say "gee who's that chump they had him fighting, he killed him. He must be fighting some nobody".


----------



## Tez3

SPX said:


> Well it's the only use of the term that makes sense in the context of the sentence.
> 
> In any case, have you read "mastercoles" posts? They also aren't very nice.




Sigh, when do two wrongs make a right? What happened to the discussion about TKD in or out of the Olympics?


----------



## SPX

Oh, I think we moved on from that conversation around page 6 or so. . .


----------



## ralphmcpherson

ETinCYQX said:


> Yes, you sure as hell do. Most of what makes a fighter good is the "killer instinct" or will to win. Did you consider Steven didn't knock the Iraqi fighter out because he didn't manage to?


I agree. When was the last time you saw a boxer go easy on his opponent because he works out in the first round that its a mis-match. If you are in a competition where knock outs are part of the rules and you knock someone out, how can anyone have a problem with that?


----------



## mastercole

Sure, I point out a glaring flaw in someone&#8217;s hero, so my comments seem &#8220;mean&#8221; and &#8220;not nice&#8221;, I understand.  See, I know that you admire him, greatly. You call him &#8220;my hero&#8221; and even stated &#8220;you love his hair&#8221; on another post, but let&#8217;s get past that and consider his actions as a martial artist and consider why his actions in that horrible highlight clip that you first posted -- and that you have been posting all over other boards -- should not impress you or others.

I have been around and spent considerable time with the world&#8217;s most elite Taekwondo champions (including Steven), their instructors, trainers and coaches, form all different decades of Taekwondo&#8217;s existence, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the majority, if not all temper their fight when faced with a drastically under skilled opponent. It&#8217;s morally the right thing to do. However, when face with a worthy opponent; they will perform at their maximum ability, killer instinct and all. As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have never been in the ring before.

UPHOLDING THE SPIRIT AND TRADITIONS OF MARTIAL ARTS?

It&#8217;s appalling to see practitioners, especially those who like to think they are teachers, who support the show boating abuse of unskilled novice practitioners by an egotistical and arrogant skilled fighter, and his coach. Especially from those here who profess they, or their instructor/organization are the torch bearers of so-called traditional or some early form of Taekwondo and its philosophies, expounding that they are defenders of the weak with their non-sport self-defense teachings and are honoring the pioneers who came before them.

Of greater concern to me is the statements of ETinCYQX, who claims to be an actual fighter (winning the last match 7-2?), and feels that it does not matter if your opponent is way out of their league and unskilled, you use the killer instinct and go for the knockout. But I am more disappointed in ETinCYQX's coach. This negative attitude, fueled by a dysfunctional relationship between a coach/trainer/instructor/manager of the fighter is at the root of the problem that turns novice practitioners against intense martial arts competition.  The bottom line is that at some point they felt bullied, or saw others of low skills face this bully attitude in the ring.  So they run and hide behind the faux self-defense only/non-sport moniker. As for the fighter, we can see what happens if they do make it big on the international Taekwondo scene. They damage the sport, like Matos of Cuba, kicking the referee.

THE BULLIED BECOMES THE BULLY

These persons who were fixated on self-defense did so because of earlier bullying in their life or some other form of bulling or abuse they saw or experience that made it a major concern in their life.  I know, for a large part of my early martial arts training, I was this type of person so I can see it now, clearly in others. The crux of these phenomena is that many times, these concerned practitioners never fully confront their fear, frustration, hate, anger, jealousy and indecision:  that crippling failure that prevents them from turning choice into action quickly - seamlessly (called by some as OODA Loop).  These scared emotions can build inside these individuals, and their like-minded associations, like a cancer and destroy them from the inside out.  In an attempt to continue the now defunct like-minded group, they form a new one, with a new name and a new story of hate.  This cycle of suffering destroys their original motive and the cycle continues, leaving a trail of dead-defunct groups, xyz, abc, efg, etc organizations. They can no longer clearly see the way to their own personal salvation from this seed of abuse that was planted long ago.  They end up cheering on the bully, if not being the bully themselves because deep down inside they want to be something greater, or at least, a part of it, even if it&#8217;s destructive.  We can see this in those who thanked ETinCYQX for his "go for the knockout/killer instinct" comment. This suffering manifest in other areas of peoples lives as well.  Failure at forming healthy relationships with family, failing to find a wife, feeling unworthy to teach your students, living at home with mom, etc.

Learning about the self and overcoming these destructive internal emotional obstacles, the very thing that martial arts was supposed to do, never happened. What happened here is that the martial arts, taught and presented the wrong way, from a series of wrong teachers, pulled the practitioner deeper into an abyss of suffering.  The very suffering that Buddha, Confucius, and Lao Tzu taught against.
Does all this apply to any of you?  Maybe not.  But if you feel it might, you should work to resolve it and not spread the disease to others.

So you think I am mean and not nice?  Good. At least I got your attention and gave you something real to think about for the next 40 years other than that horrible example of a video that shows us what not to be.


----------



## Twin Fist

your posts made ME think that some people were better off without internet access

dogging on someone for beating someone else? in a match where both parties are there to win and both know the rules?

whatever


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> your posts made ME think that some people were better off without internet access



But we learn so much from having internet access, John.



Twin Fist said:


> dogging on someone for beating someone else? in a match where both parties are there to win and both know the rules?
> 
> whatever



Like this match, where you, a self described 4th Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do and staunch self defense advocate and defender of the weak, is punching the face a seemingly horrified, out of shape, novice red belt woman?  Did she know the rules, was she there to win and willing to take a beating?

From John Tygart's photo internet MySpace photo album.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Sure, I point out a glaring flaw in someone&#8217;s hero, so my comments seem &#8220;mean&#8221; and &#8220;not nice&#8221;, I understand.  See, I know that you admire him, greatly. You call him &#8220;my hero&#8221; and even stated &#8220;you love his hair&#8221; on another post, but let&#8217;s get past that and consider his actions as a martial artist and consider why his actions in that horrible highlight clip that you first posted -- and that you have been posting all over other boards -- should not impress you or others.
> 
> *It's FIGHTING. It is a COMBAT SPORT. It is not goddamn soccer and you don't seem to get that.* *Steve Vick gets the respect he gets because he fought ANYONE under different rulesets. He tested himself in Taekwondo AND kickboxing. REAL fighters do that, they have a "come get it" attitude and will bring it to anyone. The coaches here will agree with me, especially since I'm more or less paraphrasing Puunui. *
> 
> I have been around and spent considerable time with the world&#8217;s most elite Taekwondo champions (including Steven), their instructors, trainers and coaches, form all different decades of Taekwondo&#8217;s existence, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the majority, if not all temper their fight when faced with a drastically under skilled opponent. It&#8217;s morally the right thing to do. However, when face with a worthy opponent; they will perform at their maximum ability, killer instinct and all. As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have never been in the ring before.
> 
> *It's not any competitor's job to decide if they should be fighting an opponent or not. **If Mr. Lopez had badly beaten the Iraq fighter it would have still been competition and nothing to be deplored. In fact I'd consider it more disrespectful to the Iraq competitor to not be taken seriously. *
> 
> UPHOLDING THE SPIRIT AND TRADITIONS OF MARTIAL ARTS?
> 
> It&#8217;s appalling to see practitioners, especially those who like to think they are teachers, who support the show boating abuse of unskilled novice practitioners by an egotistical and arrogant skilled fighter, and his coach. Especially from those here who profess they, or their instructor/organization are the torch bearers of so-called traditional or some early form of Taekwondo and its philosophies, expounding that they are defenders of the weak with their non-sport self-defense teachings and are honoring the pioneers who came before them.
> 
> *It's not ego, it's called FIGHTING. It is a COMPETITION.*
> 
> Of greater concern to me is the statements of ETinCYQX, who claims to be an actual fighter (winning the last match 7-2?), and feels that it does not matter if your opponent is way out of their league and unskilled, you use the killer instinct and go for the knockout.
> 
> *I don't call myself a competitor. Haven't competed to any significance for years. The reference to that match was about my opponent scoring with punches and you and I both know that. Of course, it helps your point to quote me out of context and make me look like a thug.
> 
> And yes, if we are in a tournament and you are across the mat from me, it is not my fault nor my problem if you are not in my league. I will take you at face value and consider you an equally skilled martial artist that I need to bring it against. (I use "me" "we" and "you" hypothetically. Easier to express this thought this way.)
> 
> *But I am more disappointed in ETinCYQX's coach.
> 
> *I'm sure Master Nippard is heartbroken.
> 
> *This negative attitude, fueled by a dysfunctional relationship between a coach/trainer/instructor/manager of the fighter is at the root of the problem that turns novice practitioners against intense martial arts competition.  The bottom line is that at some point they felt bullied, or saw others of low skills face this bully attitude in the ring.  So they run and hide behind the faux self-defense only/non-sport moniker. As for the fighter, we can see what happens if they do make it big on the international Taekwondo scene. They damage the sport, like Matos of Cuba, kicking the referee.
> 
> *It's not being a bully. It's taking every competitor at face value and taking every challenge seriously. Sport 101.*
> 
> THE BULLIED BECOMES THE BULLY
> 
> These persons who were fixated on self-defense did so because of earlier bullying in their life or some other form of bulling or abuse they saw or experience that made it a major concern in their life.  I know, for a large part of my early martial arts training, I was this type of person so I can see it now, clearly in others. The crux of these phenomena is that many times, these concerned practitioners never fully confront their fear, frustration, hate, anger, jealousy and indecision:  that crippling failure that prevents them from turning choice into action quickly - seamlessly (called by some as OODA Loop).  These scared emotions can build inside these individuals, and their like-minded associations, like a cancer and destroy them from the inside out.  In an attempt to continue the now defunct like-minded group, they form a new one, with a new name and a new story of hate.  This cycle of suffering destroys their original motive and the cycle continues, leaving a trail of dead-defunct groups, xyz, abc, efg, etc organizations. They can no longer clearly see the way to their own personal salvation from this seed of abuse that was planted long ago.  They end up cheering on the bully, if not being the bully themselves because deep down inside they want to be something greater, or at least, a part of it, even if it&#8217;s destructive.  We can see this in those who thanked ETinCYQX for his "go for the knockout/killer instinct" comment. This suffering manifest in other areas of peoples lives as well.  Failure at forming healthy relationships with family, failing to find a wife, feeling unworthy to teach your students, living at home with mom, etc.
> 
> *I started because I was getting picked on and lacked confidence. I have never hit another person, in anger or self defense. When I was a kid I competed in tournaments and this taught me to believe in myself. Soccer, basketball, hockey would have done the same thing, even my moderate level of local success gave me a sense of self worth. For the record you're still this type of person judging by this post, just more passive aggressive. *
> 
> Learning about the self and overcoming these destructive internal emotional obstacles, the very thing that martial arts was supposed to do, never happened. What happened here is that the martial arts, taught and presented the wrong way, from a series of wrong teachers, pulled the practitioner deeper into an abyss of suffering.  The very suffering that Buddha, Confucius, and Lao Tzu taught against.
> Does all this apply to any of you?  Maybe not.  But if you feel it might, you should work to resolve it and not spread the disease to others.
> 
> *Thanks for your psychiatric **assessment that I'm an insecure bully, along with Twin Fist, Ralphmcpherson and SPX. Noted. *
> 
> So you think I am mean and not nice?  Good. At least I got your attention and gave you something real to think about for the next 40 years other than that horrible example of a video that shows us what not to be.
> 
> *What makes you so much better qualified than me or my instructors to decide what a martial artist should think like? I'm curious here, are you that much more knowledgeable than anyone else or is this an opinion?*



You're quoting me out of context to prove your point, as well as denigrating me, my instructor, my training AND my students. Neither of which you know. To put it kindly, stuff it.

For the record my name is Ethan Terris. I started training with Mr. Raymond Bennett in 1997 under Grandmaster Jung Soo Park. Circa 2000 my training moved to Mr. Chad Nippard under Grandmaster Woo Young Jung and the Kukkiwon, then to Master T. Nippard under same before I took a break for around 6 years in 2003. I returned in 2009 as a 1st kup under Mr. Sam Lee and I was promoted to first degree black belt in June 2011 by Master Nippard. Currently I run Terris' Taekwondo in Gander, Newfoundland for Master Nippard. Now you know who I am, who teaches me, who has ever taught me and who gave me my black belt. These people all think I am a worthy martial artist and they've known me personally since literally before I was old enough to remember.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Sure, I point out a glaring flaw in someone&#8217;s hero, so my comments seem &#8220;mean&#8221; and &#8220;not nice&#8221;, I understand.  See, I know that you admire him, greatly. You call him &#8220;my hero&#8221; and even stated &#8220;you love his hair&#8221; on another post, but let&#8217;s get past that and consider his actions as a martial artist and consider why his actions in that horrible highlight clip that you first posted -- and that you have been posting all over other boards -- should not impress you or others.
> 
> I have been around and spent considerable time with the world&#8217;s most elite Taekwondo champions (including Steven), their instructors, trainers and coaches, form all different decades of Taekwondo&#8217;s existence, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the majority, if not all temper their fight when faced with a drastically under skilled opponent. It&#8217;s morally the right thing to do. However, when face with a worthy opponent; they will perform at their maximum ability, killer instinct and all. As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have never been in the ring before.
> 
> UPHOLDING THE SPIRIT AND TRADITIONS OF MARTIAL ARTS?
> 
> It&#8217;s appalling to see practitioners, especially those who like to think they are teachers, who support the show boating abuse of unskilled novice practitioners by an egotistical and arrogant skilled fighter, and his coach. Especially from those here who profess they, or their instructor/organization are the torch bearers of so-called traditional or some early form of Taekwondo and its philosophies, expounding that they are defenders of the weak with their non-sport self-defense teachings and are honoring the pioneers who came before them.
> 
> Of greater concern to me is the statements of ETinCYQX, who claims to be an actual fighter (winning the last match 7-2?), and feels that it does not matter if your opponent is way out of their league and unskilled, you use the killer instinct and go for the knockout. But I am more disappointed in ETinCYQX's coach. This negative attitude, fueled by a dysfunctional relationship between a coach/trainer/instructor/manager of the fighter is at the root of the problem that turns novice practitioners against intense martial arts competition.  The bottom line is that at some point they felt bullied, or saw others of low skills face this bully attitude in the ring.  So they run and hide behind the faux self-defense only/non-sport moniker. As for the fighter, we can see what happens if they do make it big on the international Taekwondo scene. They damage the sport, like Matos of Cuba, kicking the referee.
> 
> THE BULLIED BECOMES THE BULLY
> 
> These persons who were fixated on self-defense did so because of earlier bullying in their life or some other form of bulling or abuse they saw or experience that made it a major concern in their life.  I know, for a large part of my early martial arts training, I was this type of person so I can see it now, clearly in others. The crux of these phenomena is that many times, these concerned practitioners never fully confront their fear, frustration, hate, anger, jealousy and indecision:  that crippling failure that prevents them from turning choice into action quickly - seamlessly (called by some as OODA Loop).  These scared emotions can build inside these individuals, and their like-minded associations, like a cancer and destroy them from the inside out.  In an attempt to continue the now defunct like-minded group, they form a new one, with a new name and a new story of hate.  This cycle of suffering destroys their original motive and the cycle continues, leaving a trail of dead-defunct groups, xyz, abc, efg, etc organizations. They can no longer clearly see the way to their own personal salvation from this seed of abuse that was planted long ago.  They end up cheering on the bully, if not being the bully themselves because deep down inside they want to be something greater, or at least, a part of it, even if it&#8217;s destructive.  We can see this in those who thanked ETinCYQX for his "go for the knockout/killer instinct" comment. This suffering manifest in other areas of peoples lives as well.  Failure at forming healthy relationships with family, failing to find a wife, feeling unworthy to teach your students, living at home with mom, etc.
> 
> Learning about the self and overcoming these destructive internal emotional obstacles, the very thing that martial arts was supposed to do, never happened. What happened here is that the martial arts, taught and presented the wrong way, from a series of wrong teachers, pulled the practitioner deeper into an abyss of suffering.  The very suffering that Buddha, Confucius, and Lao Tzu taught against.
> Does all this apply to any of you?  Maybe not.  But if you feel it might, you should work to resolve it and not spread the disease to others.
> 
> So you think I am mean and not nice?  Good. At least I got your attention and gave you something real to think about for the next 40 years other than that horrible example of a video that shows us what not to be.


Im still trying to get past the bit where you said -"As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are  usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have  never been in the ring before". Have you actually watched much boxing?, its a miss-match-athon. Go back and watch all of tyson's early fights, he nearly killed those poor blokes who were light years from his standard. What about the new zealand title fight coming up soon, sonny bill williams (pro boxer, pro league player, pro union player, bulit like a tonne of bricks) and he's fighting some no-name who doesnt even box full time. Ok, now to go back and try reading the rest.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im still trying to get past the bit where you said -"As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are  usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have  never been in the ring before". Have you actually watched much boxing?, its a miss-match-athon. Go back and watch all of tyson's early fights, he nearly killed those poor blokes who were light years from his standard. What about the new zealand title fight coming up soon, sonny bill williams (pro boxer, pro league player, pro union player, bulit like a tonne of bricks) and he's fighting some no-name who doesnt even box full time. Ok, now to go back and try reading the rest.



Some do, go back and read the part where I said "rarely".


----------



## ralphmcpherson

ETinCYQX said:


> You're quoting me out of context to prove your point, as well as denigrating me, my instructor, my training AND my students. Neither of which you know. To put it kindly, stuff it.
> 
> For the record my name is Ethan Terris. I started training with Mr. Raymond Bennett in 1997 under Grandmaster Jung Soo Park. Circa 2000 my training moved to Mr. Chad Nippard under Grandmaster Woo Young Jung and the Kukkiwon, then to Master T. Nippard under same before I took a break for around 6 years in 2003. I returned in 2009 as a 1st kup under Mr. Sam Lee and I was promoted to first degree black belt in June 2011 by Master Nippard. Currently I run Terris' Taekwondo in Gander, Newfoundland for Master Nippard. Now you know who I am, who teaches me, who has ever taught me and who gave me my black belt. These people all think I am a worthy martial artist and they've known me personally since literally before I was old enough to remember.


I have read enough of your posts here to know you are a worthy martial artist Ethan. What was said about you, your instructors and peers in the above post was way ot of line. Take no notice of him, Im sure your students and school are a credit to you. No one deserves such a blatant attempt at humiliation as what was just aimed at you.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Sure, I point out a glaring flaw in someone&#8217;s hero, so my comments seem &#8220;mean&#8221; and &#8220;not nice&#8221;, I understand.



No, I think that having a knee-jerk reaction to a highlight video in which you don't know the full circumstances, of a man whom you've never met, berating not only him, but also his coach, and the entire sport of kickboxing, makes your comments "mean" and "not nice."




mastercole said:


> See, I know that you admire him, greatly. You call him &#8220;my hero&#8221;. . .



Well, he IS pretty awesome.




mastercole said:


> . . .and even stated &#8220;you love his hair&#8221; on another post. . .



Well, ironically at least. 




mastercole said:


> . . . and that you have been posting all over other boards. . .



I'm guilty of this.  You know, gotta spread the word about this gem of a TKDist-turned-kickboxer.




mastercole said:


> I have been around and spent considerable time with the world&#8217;s most elite Taekwondo champions (including Steven), their instructors, trainers and coaches, form all different decades of Taekwondo&#8217;s existence, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the majority, if not all temper their fight when faced with a drastically under skilled opponent.  It&#8217;s morally the right thing to do.



And so what happens when one of these elite Taekwondo champions goes easy and ends up getting knocked out in a very important match with 10 seconds to go in the last round when he could've finished the fight in two minutes?  Is that just the price you pay for doing the "morally right thing?"

I'll be honest with you, I think you're attitude--while perhaps well-intentioned--is rather bizarre.  I've never had heard any legit fighter in any combat sport say that it's a virtue to not fight to the best of their ability.  Whoever stands before you is a threat.  When it's two guys in a ring, their job is to fight.  Afterward they winner can buy the loser a beer, but in the ring, it's time to put everything on the line.




mastercole said:


> As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have never been in the ring before.



There would be some truth here if we were talking about MMA, but boxing?  Boxing is all about feeding a prospect 30 cans and then giving him a title shot.




mastercole said:


> Of greater concern to me is the statements of ETinCYQX, who claims to be an actual fighter (winning the last match 7-2?), and feels that it does not matter if your opponent is way out of their league and unskilled, you use the killer instinct and go for the knockout.



I think it's that only in your world is it wrong to go for a knockout in a sport that rewards knockouts with instant victory.




mastercole said:


> These persons who were fixated on self-defense did so because of earlier bullying in their life or some other form of bulling or abuse they saw or experience that made it a major concern in their life.  I know, for a large part of my early martial arts training, I was this type of person so I can see it now, clearly in others. The crux of these phenomena is that many times, these concerned practitioners never fully confront their fear, frustration, hate, anger, jealousy and indecision:  that crippling failure that prevents them from turning choice into action quickly - seamlessly (called by some as OODA Loop).  These scared emotions can build inside these individuals, and their like-minded associations, like a cancer and destroy them from the inside out.  In an attempt to continue the now defunct like-minded group, they form a new one, with a new name and a new story of hate.  This cycle of suffering destroys their original motive and the cycle continues, leaving a trail of dead-defunct groups, xyz, abc, efg, etc organizations. They can no longer clearly see the way to their own personal salvation from this seed of abuse that was planted long ago.  They end up cheering on the bully, if not being the bully themselves because deep down inside they want to be something greater, or at least, a part of it, even if it&#8217;s destructive.  We can see this in those who thanked ETinCYQX for his "go for the knockout/killer instinct" comment. This suffering manifest in other areas of peoples lives as well.  Failure at forming healthy relationships with family, failing to find a wife, feeling unworthy to teach your students, living at home with mom, etc.



This seems interesting, but to be honest I'm not really sure what you said here.




mastercole said:


> So you think I am mean and not nice?  Good. At least I got your attention and gave you something real to think about for the next 40 years other than that horrible example of a video that shows us what not to be.



Teacher:  "Hey little Johnny, what do you want to be when you grow up?"
Little Johnny:  "Steve Vick!!!"

:bangahead:


----------



## ETinCYQX

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have read enough of your posts here to know you are a worthy martial artist Ethan. What was said about you, your instructors and peers in the above post was way ot of line. Take no notice of him, Im sure your students and school are a credit to you. No one deserves such a blatant attempt at humiliation as what was just aimed at you.



Thank you, sir, I appreciate the support.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> You're quoting me out of context to prove your point, as well as denigrating me, my instructor, my training AND my students. Neither of which you know. To put it kindly, stuff it.
> 
> For the record my name is Ethan Terris. I started training with Mr. Raymond Bennett in 1997 under Grandmaster Jung Soo Park. Circa 2000 my training moved to Mr. Chad Nippard under Grandmaster Woo Young Jung and the Kukkiwon, then to Master T. Nippard under same before I took a break for around 6 years in 2003. I returned in 2009 as a 1st kup under Mr. Sam Lee and I was promoted to first degree black belt in June 2011 by Master Nippard. Currently I run Terris' Taekwondo in Gander, Newfoundland for Master Nippard. Now you know who I am, who teaches me, who has ever taught me and who gave me my black belt. These people all think I am a worthy martial artist and they've known me personally since literally before I was old enough to remember.



Good, then let them read my post and know that I am disappointed in your disregard for a novice practitioner, and let them also know that if they support that kind of destructive attitude, I am disappointed in them, and their teachers as well.   Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Good, then let them read my post and know that I am disappointed in your disregard for a novice practitioner, and let them also know that if they support that kind of destructive attitude, I am disappointed in them, and their teachers as well.   Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio.



So lets get this straight. The _Iraqi Olympic team member_ is a novice practitioner? He's the only person I talked about aside from a theoretical _adult black belt division_ opponent.

You're free to tell GM Park, GM Jung, Either of the two Nippard's or Master Bennett you're disappointed in them. I'd venture a guess they'll ask the same thing I did-who's this guy think he is?-and proceed to pretend to listen since they're more worried about tact then I am.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> So lets get this straight. The _Iraqi Olympic team member_ is a novice practitioner? He's the only person I talked about aside from a theoretical _adult black belt division_ opponent.



Go back and read the thread. It was about Steve Vick beating down totally novice practitioners.  I used Steven Lopez's match against the Iraqi player as an example, that even elite fighters back off on out classed opponents.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Go back and read the thread. It was about Steve Vick beating down totally novice practitioners.  I used Steven Lopez's match against the Iraqi player as an example, that even elite fighters back off on out classed opponents.



I didn't say anything about Mr. Vick, my comment was directly related to the Olympic event. You replied with half a page about how me, my students, 3 of the pioneers of Canadian Taekwondo and everyone who doesn't agree with me aren't martial artists. 

Either way, my opinion applies to Vick too.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> I didn't say anything about Mr. Vick, my comment was directly related to the Olympic event. You replied with half a page about how me, my students, 3 of the pioneers of Canadian Taekwondo and everyone who doesn't agree with me aren't martial artists.
> 
> Either way, my opinion applies to Vick too.



There you have it then. You are who you are, and your teachers are who they are. To each his own.


----------



## SPX

By the way, I'd just like to say that, as a very recent convert to KKW TKD, I'm itching to get in there and separate some dudes from consciousness.

If that makes me a bad person, then I dunno, feel free to tell on me to my mom or something.


----------



## ETinCYQX

I hope you understand I had to respond to what I consider uncalled for personal attacks and I don't harbour a grudge.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> I hope you understand I had to respond to what I consider uncalled for personal attacks and I don't harbour a grudge.



Personally I don't see any grudges at all. 

I was pointing out that for anyone to support and cheer on the dangerous injury and abuse of novice, un-experienced practitioners by fighters with good skills, is ethically wrong, and very wrong according to what Taekwondo teaches. 

Elite fighter vs, elite fighters, they should go for it, knockout wins. That's what we all signed up for. But that does not mean we did not sign away our moral responsibility to those behind us in the journey.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> By the way, I'd just like to say that, as a very recent convert to KKW TKD, I'm itching to get in there and separate some dudes from consciousness.
> 
> If that makes me a bad person, then I dunno, feel free to tell on me to my mom or something.



If you meet a player of similar skill, go for it, that's fair.  But if you encounter someone who can not lay a foot or hand on you and you out class them in skill by a long shot, it is ethically wrong of you to attempt to seriously harm them, according to not just to Taekwondo, but many other principle philosophies and religions.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Keep in mind that Steve Vick was fighting other professional kickboxers within his weight class. Ergo, they signed up for the same thing. That's what the belts were originally for, to tell who was where in the journey.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Keep in mind that Steve Vick was fighting other professional kickboxers within his weight class. Ergo, they signed up for the same thing. That's what the belts were originally for, to tell who was where in the journey.



Those fights were not the fights I was talking about.  See the first video SPX posted. The highlights, then tell me what you think.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Good stuff.  Really like that ITF vid.  Though to be fair, you compared a highlight to a full match which isn't really an accurate comparison.
> 
> Something like this Steve Vick vid that I posted the other day might be a bit better to represent the WTF:



This video


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> If you meet a player of similar skill, go for it, that's fair.  But if you encounter someone who can not lay a foot or hand on you and you out class them in skill by a long shot, it is ethically wrong of you to attempt to seriously harm them, according to not just to Taekwondo, but many other principle philosophies and religions.



I'm still not clear on how I'm supposed to know what their skill level is.  Unless you know the person, it's just some random guy.  I mean, are you suggesting I give it a few minutes to feel them out before flipping the switch and going full blast?  Just makes no sense to me.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> I'm still not clear on how I'm supposed to know what their skill level is.  Unless you know the person, it's just some random guy.  I mean, are you suggesting I give it a few minutes to feel them out before flipping the switch and going full blast?  Just makes no sense to me.



If you can not tell that you out class your opponent are are completely dominating them, they your coach should know, and advise you accordingly.  Ask your coach about this question.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Sure. I saw Steve score a bunch of knockouts, typical for a highlight reel. I didn't notice any blatant mismatches to be honest, I noticed all of his opponents were similarly sized black belts, and I didn't even see Steve celebrate his wins. I saw him stop kicking and walk out of the frame. 

If you're referring to the clips where his opponents are backing away from him, that happens. Even Steven Lopez, Aaron Cook, whoever gets caught and starts backpedaling. Doesn't mean anything other than they got caught and panicked.


----------



## SPX

You see, when a guy starts running away then to me that's a signal to go in for the kill.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> If you can not tell that you out class your opponent are are completely dominating them, they your coach should know, and advise you accordingly.  Ask your coach about this question.



He's going to tell me "You're beating him, keep it up". However if my opponent starts backing up and it's been even so far it will be something like "He's done, get after him"



SPX said:


> You see, when a guy starts running away then to me that's a signal to go in for the kill.



Me too and I think it's a question of context.

I have seen fights, lots of them in fact, where the fighters were very evenly matched and one gets caught and starts backpedaling. It happens all the time and it's not a sign of an inferior fighter.


----------



## Twin Fist

uh, i was a brown belt then, it was 1998 and thats Dave McClellen(sp) now a 2nd dan under GM Roy Kurban, and he was a tough fighter.Dont let that gut fool you......

try again. 



mastercole said:


> But we learn so much from having internet access, John.
> 
> 
> 
> Like this match, where you, a self described 4th Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do and staunch self defense advocate and defender of the weak, is punching the face a seemingly horrified, out of shape, novice red belt woman?  Did she know the rules, was she there to win and willing to take a beating?
> 
> From John Tygart's photo internet MySpace photo album.


----------



## SPX

ETinCYQX said:


> Me too and I think it's a question of context.
> 
> I have seen fights, lots of them in fact, where the fighters were very evenly matched and one gets caught and starts backpedaling. It happens all the time and it's not a sign of an inferior fighter.



Yeah, I mean if you pop a dude and put him on his bicycle then it's time to drop the hammer.

BTW, there are several times in that vid where Vic kicks an opponent in the face, the opponent turns away, Vick goes in to finish it and the ref gets between them.  Why is the ref interfering?  Is that considered a knockout or does the guy get time to recover?


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> If you can not tell that you out class your opponent are are completely dominating them, they your coach should know, and advise you accordingly.  Ask your coach about this question.





SPX said:


> Yeah, I mean if you pop a dude and put him on his bicycle then it's time to drop the hammer.
> 
> BTW, there are several times in that vid where Vic kicks an opponent in the face, the opponent turns away, Vick goes in to finish it and the ref gets between them.  Why is the ref interfering?  Is that considered a knockout or does the guy get time to recover?



Last tourney I coached refs did the same thing and used a standing 8 count.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Sure. I saw Steve score a bunch of knockouts, typical for a highlight reel. I didn't notice any blatant mismatches to be honest, I noticed all of his opponents were similarly sized black belts, and I didn't even see Steve celebrate his wins. I saw him stop kicking and walk out of the frame.
> 
> If you're referring to the clips where his opponents are backing away from him, that happens. Even Steven Lopez, Aaron Cook, whoever gets caught and starts backpedaling. Doesn't mean anything other than they got caught and panicked.



Maybe you don't see what I see, which to me is very apparent in their sulking away, grabbing their face and when he kicks their back side, emotionally trying to swat him away from their backside with a "leave me a lone" action. It's apparent to me throughout the highlight video. Show the video to your coach and ask him if the players in that highlight video are "skilled fighters", see what he thinks.

His showboating comes later, fringed clothes, etc, after his great defeats of the unseasoned novice practitioners.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> He's going to tell me "You're beating him, keep it up". However if my opponent starts backing up and it's been even so far it will be something like "He's done, get after him"
> 
> 
> 
> Me too and I think it's a question of context.
> 
> I have seen fights, lots of them in fact, where the fighters were very evenly matched and one gets caught and starts backpedaling. It happens all the time and it's not a sign of an inferior fighter.



No, it's not always, just in Steve Vick's highlights, where the people he is fighting can't even muster the most lame attempt at attacking him.  I am not talking about an elite fighter moving back, making errors in the match.


----------



## Twin Fist

he showboats? so ****ign what, its what professional fighters DO

he hits people? so ****ing what? when you sign up, you know you just might get hit, in fact, i think people sign up so they CAN hit someone...

You need to look something up "Master"

Weaton's Law

google THAT


----------



## ralphmcpherson

ETinCYQX said:


> Sure. I saw Steve score a bunch of knockouts, typical for a highlight reel. I didn't notice any blatant mismatches to be honest, I noticed all of his opponents were similarly sized black belts, and I didn't even see Steve celebrate his wins. I saw him stop kicking and walk out of the frame.
> 
> If you're referring to the clips where his opponents are backing away from him, that happens. Even Steven Lopez, Aaron Cook, whoever gets caught and starts backpedaling. Doesn't mean anything other than they got caught and panicked.


You're right Ethan, its very hard to judge the context of a fight by looking at 2 seconds of a bout. How do we know he out classed them so much by looking at 1 kick. From what I saw most of the fights were against other black belts of similar size. Im more concerned at the fact people are handing out black belts to people who clearly arent up to speed, if thats the case.


----------



## SPX

ETinCYQX said:


> Last tourney I coached refs did the same thing and used a standing 8 count.



Wait, what?  If that happened to me and the guy came back to knock me out I'd be PISSED!


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Yeah, I mean if you pop a dude and put him on his bicycle then it's time to drop the hammer.
> 
> BTW, there are several times in that vid where Vic kicks an opponent in the face, the opponent turns away, Vick goes in to finish it and the ref gets between them.  Why is the ref interfering?  Is that considered a knockout or does the guy get time to recover?



That ref knows the fight is over, but the way the other person completely gives up, and makes no attempt to fight back. It's the ref's job to save the person from serious injury, when they make no effort at self defense.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> uh, i was a brown belt then, it was 1998 and thats Dave McClellen(sp) now a 2nd dan under GM Roy Kurban, and he was a tough fighter.Dont let that gut fool you......
> 
> try again.



Looks like a chubby girl to me.  If you say so tough guy


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> in fact, i think people sign up so they CAN hit someone...



Word.  I know this is true for me.  And I'm not a cruel or hateful person--nor do I have anything against my opponents.  I think men just having something within them that makes us want to go to war.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> You're right Ethan, its very hard to judge the context of a fight by looking at 2 seconds of a bout. How do we know he out classed them so much by looking at 1 kick. From what I saw most of the fights were against other black belts of similar size. Im more concerned at the fact people are handing out black belts to people who clearly arent up to speed, if thats the case.



Whether you can see it our not, I can tell just by the way they stand, take steps, lack of reaction to his movements and their body language that they have no business in the ring with this level of fighter.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Maybe you don't see what I see, which to me is very apparent in their sulking away, grabbing their face and when he kicks their back side, emotionally trying to swat him away from their backside with a "leave me a lone" action. It's apparent to me throughout the highlight video. Show the video to your coach and ask him if the players in that highlight video are "skilled fighters", see what he thinks.
> 
> His showboating comes later, fringed clothes, etc, after his great defeats of the unseasoned novice practitioners.



The fringed clothes thing is kinda cheesy but I don't think anything else of it. 

Even if everyone does suck they're still in his weight class and belt division, which as far as he's concerned (or I'm concerned, really) means they should be taken seriously.



mastercole said:


> No, it's not always, just in Steve Vick's highlights, where the people he is fighting can't even muster the most lame attempt at attacking him.  I am not talking about an elite fighter moving back, making errors in the match.



There's a few matches where his opponent looks done, like he's broken or given up, but for the most part it looks like they give as good as they get until Steve knocks them out.

Also for a highlight video, one will pick the matches one looks the best in, sometimes that's the ones where your opponent either breaks or should never have been there


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Word.  I know this is true for me.  And I'm not a cruel or hateful person--nor do I have anything against my opponents.  I think men just having something within them that makes us want to go to war.



Against a worthy opponent, for sure. There is nothing like it.   But against a weak, unskilled and confused novice, no, that is out right bullying and abuse.  Same as a full grown black belt man fighting an under skilled out of shape woman.


----------



## ETinCYQX

SPX said:


> Wait, what?  If that happened to me and the guy came back to knock me out I'd be PISSED!



Refs were told to stop if they thought the fighter who was hit was bleeding. What actually happened was people started behaving like soccer players and being overdramatic, playing the game as it were, and refs reacted the right way to keep everyone safe.


----------



## Twin Fist

if he sucks, he shouldnt have been in there

too bad for him


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Whether you can see it our not, I can tell just by the way they stand, take steps, lack of reaction to his movements and their body language that they have no business in the ring with this level of fighter.



I have videos of me in Judo matches where I look like ****. I'm tired, I'm broken and I'm fighting like a child because the other guy is better and I'm not strong enough mentally to come back. Not proud of it but I look like I have no business being there and as a result I become someone's highlight reel, four times in a row. I'll post the vid when I find it again, it's somewhere. On someone's phone I think.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> The fringed clothes thing is kinda cheesy but I don't think anything else of it.
> 
> Even if everyone does suck they're still in his weight class and belt division, which as far as he's concerned (or I'm concerned, really) means they should be taken seriously.



Every match should be taken very seriously. Even when you feel the person has no chance against you, what so ever. That said, there is no reason to go in for the "kill" when you realize you have it in bag, and they are way out classes, to do so goes completely against martial arts ethics. 




ETinCYQX said:


> There's a few matches where his opponent looks done, like he's broken or given up, but for the most part it looks like they give as good as they get until Steve knocks them out.
> 
> Also for a highlight video, one will pick the matches one looks the best in, sometimes that's the ones where your opponent either breaks or should never have been there



We see it differently.  I see people of no skill, before they are hit, during the hit, and after they are hit.  No glory for defeating this novices, not in my book.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> if he sucks, he shouldnt have been in there
> 
> too bad for him



You teach that to your students, John?  I thought you were a defender of the weak and abused or was that someone else? Read my post about bullies.  It might ring a bell.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> I have videos of me in Judo matches where I look like ****. I'm tired, I'm broken and I'm fighting like a child because the other guy is better and I'm not strong enough mentally to come back. Not proud of it but I look like I have no business being there and as a result I become someone's highlight reel, four times in a row. I'll post the vid when I find it again, it's somewhere. On someone's phone I think.



But you are a fighter and wanted that, and you came back for more, and you are still in it.  These people in the video looked like people pulled from the stands, in shock.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> That ref knows the fight is over, but the way the other person completely gives up, and makes no attempt to fight back. It's the ref's job to save the person from serious injury, when they make no effort at self defense.


"completely gives up and makes no attempt to fight back", and yet they are a BLACK BELT. This is what happens when black belts are handed out like candy.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> But you are a fighter and wanted that, and you came back for more, and you are still in it.  These people in the video looked like people pulled from the stands, in shock.



My point was so did I, I'd venture the same thing happened to these people.



ralphmcpherson said:


> "completely gives up and makes no attempt to fight back", and yet they are a BLACK BELT. This is what happens when black belts are handed out like candy.



The subpar black belt argument is another one entirely, one I agree with actually, but just to save my own ego I'm only an orange belt in Judo, relating to my situation


----------



## Twin Fist

weaton's law dude, you RELLY need to look it up



in self defense, (something you wouldnt know about being a lifetime WTF guy) you use your skills to protect yourself and others, in tournament competition, everyone is assumed to be equal.

in a tournament, if he faces you, he is asking for permission to beat on you. if you are better than him, too bad for him, thats the risk he took signing up. And you are damned right i teach my students to give EVERYONE they square off with the best they have

i am doubting you have ever competed with the BS you are slinging about "fair" this and "bullies" that

thats loser talk


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> "completely gives up and makes no attempt to fight back", and yet they are a BLACK BELT. This is what happens when black belts are handed out like candy.



True.  More reason to not take complete advantage of their horrible situation and not smash their face in, don't you think?  I'd thing if one has the ba***, he would walk over and berate the coach for sending such a person into the fire.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Every match should be taken very seriously. Even when you feel the person has no chance against you, what so ever. That said, there is no reason to go in for the "kill" when you realize you have it in bag, and they are way out classes, to do so goes completely against martial arts ethics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We see it differently.  I see people of no skill, before they are hit, during the hit, and after they are hit.  No glory for defeating this novices, not in my book.


again you say "I see people of no skill", what sort of organisation gives someone "of no skill" a black belt.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> in a tournament, if he faces you, he is asking for permission to beat on you. if you are better than him, too bad for him, thats the risk he took signing up. And you are damned right i teach my students to give EVERYONE they square off with the best they have



Pretty much this. I'll skip the WTF self defense argument for now, lol


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Against a worthy opponent, for sure. There is nothing like it.   But against a weak, unskilled and confused novice, no, that is out right bullying and abuse.



Well at least in this case, as ET pointed out, these guys are black belts, presumably with at least 3 years of training.  When I think of "novices" I think of white belts or someone with less than six months in the game.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> weaton's law dude, you RELLY need to look it up
> 
> 
> 
> in self defense, (something you wouldnt know about being a lifetime WTF guy) you use your skills to protect yourself and others, in tournament competition, everyone is assumed to be equal.
> 
> in a tournament, if he faces you, he is asking for permission to beat on you. if you are better than him, too bad for him, thats the risk he took signing up. And you are damned right i teach my students to give EVERYONE they square off with the best they have
> 
> i am doubting you have ever competed with the BS you are slinging about "fair" this and "bullies" that
> 
> thats loser talk



I give you that, you would be the expert on loser talk, I have seen your postings.  You would be the last person to advise anyone on self defense unless of course it was against an out of shape unskilled woman. Own up to it.


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> if he sucks, he shouldnt have been in there
> 
> too bad for him



Eh, I dunno.  I respect anyone who steps up and competes and you gotta start somewhere.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> True.  More reason to not take complete advantage of their horrible situation and not smash their face in, don't you think?  I'd thing if one has the ba***, he would walk over and berate the coach for sending such a person into the fire.



One thing I NEVER do is badmouth or challenge another coach. I don't consider it my place to discredit anyone and especially don't consider it my place to berate my opponents coach as a competitor. That's a huge slap in the face in my opinion and it's not a question of balls, it's a question of taste and respect.


----------



## mastercole

Originally Posted by *Twin Fist* 


in a tournament, if he faces you, he is asking for permission to beat on you. if you are better than him, too bad for him, thats the risk he took signing up. And you are damned right i teach my students to give EVERYONE they square off with the best they have



Pretty much this. I'll skip the WTF self defense argument for now, lol<<<<<<<

Or he entered something he had no business entering, due to bad advise from a coach, or because it seemed like fun, etc.

The point is, if you out class someone by a long shot, don't injure them.


----------



## SPX

ETinCYQX said:


> I have videos of me in Judo matches where I look like ****. I'm tired, I'm broken and I'm fighting like a child because the other guy is better and I'm not strong enough mentally to come back. Not proud of it but I look like I have no business being there and as a result I become someone's highlight reel, four times in a row. I'll post the vid when I find it again, it's somewhere. On someone's phone I think.



Man, that sucks, but respect for being real.  I competed in one judo tourney and lost both of my matches.  One of the guys completely outclassed me.  

I haven't actively trained in judo in several years but maybe I'll get back in it.  Focusing on karate and TKD right now.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Eh, I dunno.  I respect anyone who steps up and competes and you gotta start somewhere.



Yes, respect them, if the are worthy of your skill level, go at them full force.  If you out class them, show respect and true martial arts spirit.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> Well at least in this case, as ET pointed out, these guys are black belts, presumably with at least 3 years of training.  When I think of "novices" I think of white belts or someone with less than six months in the game.


Exactly, I find it ironic that it becomes "pick on vick" day for mastercole just because vick does what he is trained to do, yet there is no mention of the idiots who hand out black belts to "novices" and people "of no skill". This is why the kkw MUST become standardised. If there is such a gaping difference in skill between black belts, then the blame must lay squarely with the org handing out black belts to "novices" and then entering them in tournaments against "real" black belts. Its not vick's fault.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> . . .to do so goes completely against martial arts ethics.



"Martial art ethics."  

Which martial art?  Because "going in for the kill" is exactly what you do in MMA, kickboxing, muay Thai, boxing . . . pretty much every professional combat sport.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Originally Posted by *Twin Fist*
> 
> 
> in a tournament, if he faces you, he is asking for permission to beat on you. if you are better than him, too bad for him, thats the risk he took signing up. And you are damned right i teach my students to give EVERYONE they square off with the best they have
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much this. I'll skip the WTF self defense argument for now, lol<<<<<<<
> 
> Or he entered something he had no business entering, due to bad advise from a coach, or because it seemed like fun, etc.
> 
> The point is, if you out class someone by a long shot, don't injure them.



I'm not Johnny from Cobra Kai, I never go out to hurt anyone. I go out to win and be the best I can be. If I were ever to find myself across the ring from Steven Lopez I'd fully expect him to try and take my head off, I'd even be somewhat insulted if he took it easy on me and patronized me.


----------



## ETinCYQX

SPX said:


> Man, that sucks, but respect for being real.  I competed in one judo tourney and lost both of my matches.  One of the guys completely outclassed me.
> 
> I haven't done actively trained in judo in several years but maybe I'll back in it.  Focusing on karate and TKD right now.



After fight #2 I took my Gi off and wanted to head home, but I decided to get back in and take my licks properly...Lost twice more, by Ippon and then osaekomi. More importantly I beat myself in the most important fight of the day when I convinced myself to stay, I think


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Exactly, I find it ironic that it becomes "pick on vick" day for mastercole just because vick does what he is trained to do, yet there is no mention of the idiots who hand out black belts to "novices" and people "of no skill". This is why the kkw MUST become standardised. If there is such a gaping difference in skill between black belts, then the blame must lay squarely with the org handing out black belts to "novices" and then entering them in tournaments against "real" black belts. Its not vick's fault.



Regardless of where their came from, it does not dismiss the lack of ethics on the part of Steve and his coach.

But that does not really matter you.


----------



## SPX

ETinCYQX said:


> More importantly I beat myself in the most important fight of the day when I convinced myself to stay, I think



Hmm, maybe.  But I give respect for the heart to stay and keep going.  Can't win 'em all.

I hate to sound like someone's dad, but "as long as you did your best. . ."


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> I'm not Johnny from Cobra Kai, I never go out to hurt anyone. I go out to win and be the best I can be. If I were ever to find myself across the ring from Steven Lopez I'd fully expect him to try and take my head off, I'd even be somewhat insulted if he took it easy on me and patronized me.



What if you came across a person in the ring, you realized they have no business what so ever fighting you, you realize you can punch and kick them at will, there is nothing they can do about, you see they are confused and afraid.  Do you go in for the knockout and finish them off?


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> After fight #2 I took my Gi off and wanted to head home, but I decided to get back in and take my licks properly...Lost twice more, by Ippon and then osaekomi. More importantly I beat myself in the most important fight of the day when I convinced myself to stay, I think



You have the will power these people who fought Vick did not.  But that is OK.  I don't expect you to understand.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> What if you came across a person in the ring, you realized they have no business what so ever fighting you, you realize you can punch and kick them at will, there is nothing they can do about, you see they are confused and afraid.  Do you go in for the knockout and finish them off?



Depends on a lot of things, mainly the stakes. At our local tournament, I probably won't try and take his head off but I'm going to dominate. Canada Open, Olympic qualifiers, nationals, etc. I'm leaving no chance for him to get lucky, sorry. He's gonna be cannon fodder..


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> You have the will power these people who fought Vick did not.  But that is OK.  I don't expect you to understand.



A good fighter breaking is not the same as a crappy fighter who shouldn't have been there. Breaking your opponent down and then going for the finish is how one wins fights and it's not the same thing as killing a newbie for a highlight reel.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> I'm not Johnny from Cobra Kai, I never go out to hurt anyone. I go out to win and be the best I can be.



Really, you sure seem to agree with him, and his coach.



ETinCYQX said:


> If I were ever to find myself across the ring from Steven Lopez I'd fully expect him to try and take my head off, I'd even be somewhat insulted if he took it easy on me and patronized me.



Once Steven realized he outclassed you, he would just do what it took to stay ahead, run the clock out and get to the next match. That is what Steven does, in case you wondered.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Depends on a lot of things, mainly the stakes. At our local tournament, I probably won't try and take his head off but I'm going to dominate. Canada Open, Olympic qualifiers, nationals, etc. I'm leaving no chance for him to get lucky, sorry. He's gonna be cannon fodder..



Steve Vicks highlight video is 99% local yokel tournaments. That is my point of discussion. But it's nice to see your changing your opinion.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> A good fighter breaking is not the same as a crappy fighter who shouldn't have been there. Breaking your opponent down and then going for the finish is how one wins fights and it's not the same thing as killing a newbie for a highlight reel.



I am talking about the "newbie" crappy fighter. You did see the video?   I was never discussing breaking down a worthy opponent.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Really, you sure seem to agree with him, and his coach.
> 
> 
> 
> Once Steven realized he outclassed you, he would just do what it took to stay ahead, run the clock out and get to the next match. That is what Steven does, in case you wondered.



Like I said, my belt division and my weight class in anything other than a friendly match/tourney, and I'm going to assume he can take my head off and try and do it first. It's competition. 

As for Lopez, maybe, maybe not. What happens when he outclasses me and I get lucky, catch him on the jaw and drop him? I go on to "his" next match because he didn't take me out when he should have. 

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Like I said, my belt division and my weight class in anything other than a friendly match/tourney, and I'm going to assume he can take my head off and try and do it first. It's competition.
> 
> As for Lopez, maybe, maybe not. What happens when he outclasses me and I get lucky, catch him on the jaw and drop him? I go on to "his" next match because he didn't take me out when he should have.
> 
> Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't.



I know Steven, if he realized you were capable and trying to do that, he would take you out of the game.  I am referring to someone who is not capable.  You keep mixing the to different issues, just to argue it seems. But maybe that is what you do.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Steve Vicks highlight video is 99% local yokel tournaments. That is my point of discussion. But it's nice to see your changing your opinion.



I dunno where these tournaments were. I also never changed my opinion, I still don't dislike what Steve did and I still would never hold it against a better fighter if he knocked me out because he could. That's my fault, not his



mastercole said:


> I am talking about the "newbie" crappy fighter. You did see the video?   I was never discussing breaking down a worthy opponent.



Still similarly sized black belts, not newbies by any means (or they shouldn't be at least.) The idea is they are worthy opponents just by virtue of their weight division and their belt division.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> I know Steven, if he realized you were capable and trying to do that, he would take you out of the game.  I am referring to someone who is not capable.  You keep mixing the to different issues, just to argue it seems. But maybe that is what you do.



Yes, but anyone can be beat by anybody on any given day.

I get the impression that you don't follow MMA, but just ask any MMA fan if ANYONE gave Matt Serra a chance to beat GSP. . .


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> I know Steven, if he realized you were capable and trying to do that, he would take you out of the game.  I am referring to someone who is not capable.  You keep mixing the to different issues, just to argue it seems. But maybe that is what you do.



I'm not mixing the issue, I'm still assuming I suck and Steven can take my head off (not much of a stretch of course, lol) my point was just people who suck get lucky too. I have no idea how strong Steven's jaw is but I have a friend who did the same thing, took a completely lucky shot from a terrible opponent to the chin with next to no power, and went out like a light.

I'm not really arguing either, more discussing I guess. I already stated my approach


----------



## ETinCYQX

SPX said:


> Yes, but anyone can be beat by anybody on any given day.
> 
> I get the impression that you don't follow MMA, but just ask any MMA fan if ANYONE gave Matt Serra a chance to beat GSP. . .



THIS! Great example.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Yes, but anyone can be beat by anybody on any given day.



I first heard this over 40 years ago and it has proved true again and again, and, it has absolutely nothing to do with my point.  But that is OK.



SPX said:


> I get the impression that you don't follow MMA, but just ask any MMA fan if ANYONE gave Matt Serra a chance to beat GSP. . .



I don't.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> I first heard this over 40 years ago and it has proved true again and again, and, it has absolutely nothing to do with my point.  But that is OK.



Has to do with my last one, though, which is a bit of a tangent I guess. It's late here though.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> I'm not mixing the issue, I'm still assuming I suck and Steven can take my head off (not much of a stretch of course, lol) my point was just people who suck get lucky too. I have no idea how strong Steven's jaw is but I have a friend who did the same thing, took a completely lucky shot from a terrible opponent to the chin with next to no power, and went out like a light.
> 
> I'm not really arguing either, more discussing I guess. I already stated my approach



I have seen it to, and had it happen to me as well. Regardless, if a fighter has good skill, they can keep the unskilled fighter shut down for the entire match and remain safe, without fracturing their face.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> I first heard this over 40 years ago and it has proved true again and again, and, it has absolutely nothing to do with my point.  But that is OK.



Well I guess if you don't see the relevance to the point then I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> I have seen it to, and had it happen to me as well. Regardless, if a fighter has good skill, they can keep the unskilled fighter shut down for the entire match and remain safe, without fracturing their face.



Theoretically, just like theoretically two same sized black belts should not have a drastic skill discrepancy  

In theory, there are no comparatively unskilled opponents in competition


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Well I guess if you don't see the relevance to the point then I don't know what to tell you.



Don't be concerned what to tell me, you have already told me everything I need to know. Thanks.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> I have seen it to, and had it happen to me as well. Regardless, if a fighter has good skill, they can keep the unskilled fighter shut down for the entire match and remain safe, without fracturing their face.



So you're saying that it's literally impossible for a lesser skilled fighter to land a "lucky" KO shot on a more skilled fighter?  He can just "shut down" the lesser skilled man, like he has a supernatural power, and there's no chance of losing?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> Well I guess if you don't see the relevance to the point then I don't know what to tell you.


Thats the problem, people become so high up in organisations (in all walks of life not just tkd), that no one dares question them, everything they say is gospel and they create their own little mini-cult. They come places like this where people couldnt care less who they are, they are just another person posting. Suddenly they get questioned, and they're not used to that and they resort to all sorts of things (as seen in this thread). I remember my first night of tkd, it was only me in a white belt and my 6th dan instructor left in the room, we went to walk out the door and I let him walk out first and he asked why. I told him he was my senior and I thought thats what Im supposed to do. He replied "there's none of that crap here, your human, Im human, Im no better than you, feel free to question anything I do or teach, I dont go in for all that "master" crap". I respected him for that, and told him that recently, years on, at a tkd camp.


----------



## ETinCYQX

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats the problem, people become so high up in organisations (in all walks of life not just tkd), that no one dares question them, everything they say is gospel and they create their own little mini-cult. They come places like this where people couldnt care less who they are, they are just another person posting. Suddenly they get questioned, and they're not used to that and they resort to all sorts of things (as seen in this thread). I remember my first night of tkd, it was only me in a white belt and my 6th dan instructor left in the room, we went to walk out the door and I let him walk out first and he asked why. I told him he was my senior and I thought thats what Im supposed to do. He relied "there's none of that crap here, your human, Im human, Im no better than you, feel free to question anything I do or teach, I dont go in for all that "master" crap". I respected him for that, and told him that recently, years on, at a tkd camp.



Master Nippard is the same way. I speak highly of him and refer to him as Master because I think highly of him, not for any other reason. No one intimidates me, authority or otherwise 

I also don't believe I have ever resorted to personal attacks, debasing one's training, or anything other than my feelings or knowledge of the topic at hand to "win" a debate on this site. Part of that is because I am no one in the grand scheme of things and I know that


----------



## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats the problem, people become so high  up in organisations (in all walks of life not just tkd), that no one  dares question them, everything they say is gospel and they create their  own little mini-cult.



Man, that's so true when it comes  to martial arts in general.  I've run across it so many times in so  many forms.  There really is a cult-like aspect to many sects of martial  arts.

In mastercole's case, if you're not an  international/Olympic level TKDer then you are competing in some "low  level thing," even if that thing is a championship bout in one of the  top kickboxing orgs in the world.

I guess Steven Lopez could easily school all the top kickboxers and muay Thai guys as well as the MMA guys.  Of course.




ralphmcpherson said:


> I  remember my first night of tkd, it was only me in a white belt and my  6th dan instructor left in the room, we went to walk out the door and I  let him walk out first and he asked why. I told him he was my senior and  I thought thats what Im supposed to do. He relied "there's none of that  crap here, your human, Im human, Im no better than you, feel free to  question anything I do or teach, I dont go in for all that "master"  crap". I respected him for that, and told him that recently, years on,  at a tkd camp.



That's a good story.  I do believe that  there should be a degree of respect shown to those with higher  ranks/more accomplishments, but at the same time we're all just people  doing an athletic activity.  The main reason I'm no longer doing ITF TKD  is because my instructor, despite being quite skilled, was entirely  consumed by his own ego.  He regarded no opinion as important but his  own and loved to yell at people and order them around.  And you never  knew what he would take as disrespect.  It was like walking on egg  shells.  I don't have time for that.

It sucks too, because I really like the ITF curriculum, philosophy and competition rules . . . except for sine wave, that is.


----------



## ETinCYQX

SPX said:


> Man, that's so true when it comes  to martial arts in general.  I've run across it so many times in so  many forms.  There really is a cult-like aspect to many sects of martial  arts.
> 
> In mastercole's case, if you're not an  international/Olympic level TKDer then you are competing in some "low  level thing," even if that thing is a championship bout in one of the  top kickboxing orgs in the world.
> 
> I guess Steven Lopez could easily school all the top kickboxers and muay Thai guys as well as the MMA guys.  Of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good story.  I do believe that  there should be a degree of respect shown to those with higher  ranks/more accomplishments, but at the same time we're all just people  doing an athletic activity.  The main reason I'm no longer doing ITF TKD  is because the instructor, despite being quite skilled, was entirely  consumed by his own ego.  He regarded no opinion as important but his  own and loved to yell at people and order them around.  And you never  knew what he would take as disrespect.  It was like walking on egg  shells.  I don't have time for that.
> 
> It sucks too, because I really like the ITF curriculum, philosophy and competition rules . . . except for sine wave, that is.



I have to admit though I appreciate it when my students shut up and let me talk in class...lol. I don't yell at anyone though


----------



## Twin Fist

seriously? thats all you got?

what a ****ing joke.





mastercole said:


> I give you that, you would be the expert on loser talk, I have seen your postings.  You would be the last person to advise anyone on self defense unless of course it was against an out of shape unskilled woman. Own up to it.


----------



## SPX

ETinCYQX said:


> I have to admit though I appreciate it when my students shut up and let me talk in class...lol. I don't yell at anyone though



Well you see, that's different.  I've always respected the leader of the class.  But this dude. . .

I'll just that it's always been something of a (admittedly guilty) hope of mine to one day face his students in competition and destroy them with ease.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> So you're saying that it's literally impossible for a lesser skilled fighter to land a "lucky" KO shot on a more skilled fighter?  He can just "shut down" the lesser skilled man, like he has a supernatural power, and there's no chance of losing?



Those are you words not mine.  I never stated there was no chance.  I stated "_if a fighter has good skill, they can keep the unskilled fighter shut down" _


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Twin Fist said:


> seriously? thats all you got?
> 
> what a ****ing joke.


I just went back and read through the thread. You are right, he is resorting to the sorts of arguments and slander that a pre schooler resorts to. Everyone has made good concise arguments without resorting to the lows of searching the net to find pictures of people sparring (I mean really, get a life). Clutching at straws comes to mind .The irony is that the only one acting childish is the one putting 'master' before their username.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Those are you words not mine.  I never stated there was no chance.  I stated "_if a fighter has good skill, they can keep the unskilled fighter shut down" _



So by "can" you mean it's possible, or its definite?  Because if it's merely possible then it seems like a pretty big chance to take to not get your opponent out of the match as quickly as you can.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats the problem, people become so high up in organisations (in all walks of life not just tkd), that no one dares question them, everything they say is gospel and they create their own little mini-cult. They come places like this where people couldnt care less who they are, they are just another person posting. Suddenly they get questioned, and they're not used to that and they resort to all sorts of things (as seen in this thread). I remember my first night of tkd, it was only me in a white belt and my 6th dan instructor left in the room, we went to walk out the door and I let him walk out first and he asked why. I told him he was my senior and I thought thats what Im supposed to do. He replied "there's none of that crap here, your human, Im human, Im no better than you, feel free to question anything I do or teach, I dont go in for all that "master" crap". I respected him for that, and told him that recently, years on, at a tkd camp.



I never assumed importance nor did I think that you should.  Call me whatever you like.  Even disrespect me if you like.  You are who you are and will act as you have been taught, by your 6th Dan instructor.  It does not matter to me. I was interested in your opinion not your submission.


----------



## ETinCYQX

But that's back to theoretical, just like theoretically anyone a 170lb black belt fights is also a 170lb black belt with the same skill level.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Master Nippard is the same way. I speak highly of him and refer to him as Master because I think highly of him, not for any other reason. No one intimidates me, authority or otherwise
> 
> I also don't believe I have ever resorted to personal attacks, debasing one's training, or anything other than my feelings or knowledge of the topic at hand to "win" a debate on this site. Part of that is because I am no one in the grand scheme of things and I know that



Was someone on this board attempting holding authority over you?   Do you feel you have represented Nippard Sabumnim (s) well on this board, since it is you that references them by name?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> I never assumed importance nor did I think that you should.  Call me whatever you like.  Even disrespect me if you like.  You are who you are and will act as you have been taught, by your 6th Dan instructor.  It does not matter to me. I was interested in your opinion not your submission.


you're obviously interested in more than my opinion. Yesterday you did some 'research' on me and told me that apparantly I train at a club that doesnt have a class within 200klm of where I live. I wish I had that sort of time on my hands. When I went and checked their website it would appear they teach kukkiwon curriculum, and it doesnt take einstein to figure out from my posts that I dont do kkw tkd.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Was someone on this board attempting holding authority over you?   Do you feel you have represented Nippard Sabumnim (s) well on this board, since it is you that references them by name?



Nah I don't think so. I was just chatting with Mr. McPherson more than anything with that anecdote, if I meant anything by it I would have said 

I'd like to think I do represent him well. I expressed my views and didn't insult anyone personally, wasn't rude and I know from experience he views competition the way I do. I'm all about the growth of Taekwondo.

I don't need to represent him, either, I represent myself. If I say something insightful, valid or useful then it reflects on my knowledge of Taekwondo which comes from him, but me being a dick is on me. I don't claim to represent my college professors or parents or bosses from my day job.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Man, that's so true when it comes  to martial arts in general.  I've run across it so many times in so  many forms.  There really is a cult-like aspect to many sects of martial  arts.
> 
> In mastercole's case, if you're not an  international/Olympic level TKDer then you are competing in some "low  level thing," even if that thing is a championship bout in one of the  top kickboxing orgs in the world.



Again, those are your words, not mine. I was not discussing International Kickboxing events.  This is an Olympic Taekwondo thread, my comparison would be  International Taekwondo events:  High level competitions are different from  ---->  Local  Taekwondo events: Low level competitions that Vick was fighting in.



SPX said:


> I guess Steven Lopez could easily school all the top kickboxers and muay Thai guys as well as the MMA guys.  Of course.



I would never guess that. Please explain why you would.




SPX said:


> That's a good story.  I do believe that  there should be a degree of respect shown to those with higher  ranks/more accomplishments, but at the same time we're all just people  doing an athletic activity.  The main reason I'm no longer doing ITF TKD  is because my instructor, despite being quite skilled, was entirely  consumed by his own ego.  He regarded no opinion as important but his  own and loved to yell at people and order them around.  And you never  knew what he would take as disrespect.  It was like walking on egg  shells.  I don't have time for that.
> 
> It sucks too, because I really like the ITF curriculum, philosophy and competition rules . . . except for sine wave, that is.



Sorry to read that you learned from such a man as your former instructor.  To much discipline can be an annoying thing.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Well you see, that's different.  I've always respected the leader of the class.  But this dude. . .
> 
> I'll just that it's always been something of a (admittedly guilty) hope of mine to one day face his students in competition and destroy them with ease.



Via physical violence, take your hate out on innocent students of his?  Is that something your new instructor supports?


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Via physical violence, take your hate out on innocent students of his?  Is that something your new instructor supports?



You equate competition with violence?


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Again, those are your words, not mine.



Lolwut?  So someone hacked your account?




mastercole said:


> Let's get back to talking about Olympic  Taekwondo, what this thread was about, *who cares about ISKA or  Kickboxing, go post on those boards if you want to talk about that kind  of low level thing*.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Via physical violence, take your hate out on innocent students of his?  Is that something your new instructor supports?



Two things. . .

1.  Yeah, semi-contact sparring . . . REAL violent.  Look out, someone might get a fat lip.

2.  If I'm competing, I have to compete against SOMEONE.  Might as well be his students.  And how are they innocent?  It's not like I want to waylay them on the street or anything.  They signed up to fight.


----------



## Twin Fist

at this point people, you guys are just feeding a troll.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> you're obviously interested in more than my opinion. Yesterday you did some 'research' on me and told me that apparantly I train at a club that doesnt have a class within 200klm of where I live. I wish I had that sort of time on my hands. When I went and checked their website it would appear they teach kukkiwon curriculum, and it doesnt take einstein to figure out from my posts that I dont do kkw tkd.



Those are your words not mine. You stated earlier that many many ex Kukkiwon black belts in your area were flocking to take traditional non Kukkiwon training. One of my Aussy friends pointed out that many such clubs were following Kukkiwon curriculum. I posted the evidence.  You sure are defensive about it though.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Nah I don't think so. I was just chatting with Mr. McPherson more than anything with that anecdote, if I meant anything by it I would have said
> 
> I'd like to think I do represent him well. I expressed my views and didn't insult anyone personally, wasn't rude and I know from experience he views competition the way I do. I'm all about the growth of Taekwondo.
> 
> I don't need to represent him, either, I represent myself. If I say something insightful, valid or useful then it reflects on my knowledge of Taekwondo which comes from him, but me being a dick is on me. I don't claim to represent my college professors or parents or bosses from my day job.



But what you do and what you say in the Taekwondo world does directly reflect on your teachers, regardless of what you think.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> But what you do and what you say in the Taekwondo world does directly reflect on your teachers, regardless of what you think.



Sure, even if it does I haven't done or said anything I wouldn't say in person in front of my instructor(s).


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> You equate competition with violence?



When one strikes an innocent person, to take revenge against their teacher, whom one did not have the courage to face up to, yes. 

"""Well you see, that's different. I've always respected the leader of the class. But this dude. . .

I'll just that it's always been something of a (admittedly guilty) hope of mine to one day face his students in competition and destroy them with ease."""


----------



## ETinCYQX

The person he's hitting is there to fight, though. I think more than the violence he wants to prove his previous instructor wrong. No different than a soccer rivalry or baseball or whatever.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Two things. . .
> 
> 1.  Yeah, semi-contact sparring . . . REAL violent.  Look out, someone might get a fat lip.
> 
> 2.  If I'm competing, I have to compete against SOMEONE.  Might as well be his students.  And how are they innocent?  It's not like I want to waylay them on the street or anything.  They signed up to fight.



This board is about Olympic Taekwondo, I don't recall discussing "semi-contact."  But if you say so.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Sure, even if it does I haven't done or said anything I wouldn't say in person in front of my instructor(s).



Then it's not an issue then is it?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

there is a big difference between respecting your instructor and taking everything they say as gospel. Some people 'get off' on  being bowed to and being called master. Its not for me, I run a large business and all my employees know not to refer to me as "boss", I dont like it, we are all even, and I dare say I command more respect for being like that. But I have to agree with twin fist, the troll has had enough to eat, feeding time is over


----------



## ETinCYQX

I don't remember making it an issue?

I make it a point to disclose who I am when I take offense to something so as to avoid "keyboard warrior" status. That's all. You know who I am and where my school is now, I'm accountable for what I say and it's real.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> When one strikes an innocent person, to take revenge against their teacher, whom one did not have the courage to face up to, yes.



Face up to him how?  Should I challenge him to an honor duel to the death?

He knows I dislike him.  He could feel it, apparently.  Though for the record I ALWAYS showed respect.  Yes, sir.  No, sir.  I didn't question him in the middle of class.  And when I wanted to seek out another instructor I politely asked if that would be a problem (because there is a whole protocol within the local ITF scene about how you're supposed to switch from one instructor to another).

And you know what I got in return?  He suggested to other instructors that they not train me because I wouldn't respect them.  In reality, that's not true at all.  I just didn't respect HIM . . . but still gave the necessary outward show of respect.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> This board is about Olympic Taekwondo, I don't recall discussing "semi-contact."  But if you say so.



This BOARD is, huh?  That's funny.  Seems to me like it just says "Tae Kwon Do."  Or is the Olympic version of the art the only one that counts?

Also, I mentioned that he was an ITF instructor, so his students would be ITF students, who do semi-contact sparring.  Try to keep up.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> The person he's hitting is there to fight, though. I think more than the violence he wants to prove his previous instructor wrong. No different than a soccer rivalry or baseball or whatever.



I understand that your instructors and coaches are in 100% favor of your position on this subject and hats off to you guys for being birds of a feather. But I wonder what the parents of the children you teach would think about your position in this discussion.  

You know, that it's OK to go in for the kill, the knockout of a novice unskilled competitor, because hey, he's my same weight, and he has a black belt on, so I will just ignore his lack of skill and kick his teeth out, after all, isn't what what he signed up for, so who cares what happens to him. And by the way, that was a student from my old instructor, who I hate and want to prove wrong and have been hoping to destroy one of his students and I did it, wow, what a great day!

I wonder how that would be as the daily motivational message for your 8 year olds?  Of course, maybe your instructor agrees with you so maybe it's OK.


----------



## SPX

LOL @ a black belt being a "novice unskilled competitor."

You crack me up MASTERcole.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> I understand that your instructors and coaches are in 100% favor of your position on this subject and hats off to you guys for being birds of a feather. But I wonder what the parents of the children you teach would think about your position in this discussion.
> 
> You know, that it's OK to go in for the kill, the knockout of a novice unskilled competitor, because hey, he's my same weight, and he has a black belt on, so I will just ignore his lack of skill and kick his teeth out, after all, isn't what what he signed up for, so who cares what happens to him. And by the way, that was a student from my old instructor, who I hate and want to prove wrong and have been hoping to destroy one of his students and I did it, wow, what a great day!
> 
> I wonder how that would be as the daily motivational message for your 8 year olds?  Of course, maybe your instructor agrees with you so maybe it's OK.



In Newfoundland you have to be 18 and a black belt to win by knockout or even kick to the head. 

You and I both know this was never about 8 year olds and you're grasping at straws to make me look like a thug.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> there is a big difference between respecting your instructor and taking everything they say as gospel. Some people 'get off' on  being bowed to and being called master. Its not for me, I run a large business and all my employees know not to refer to me as "boss", I dont like it, we are all even, and I dare say I command more respect for being like that. But I have to agree with twin fist, the troll has had enough to eat, feeding time is over



Did someone say you had to take your instructors every word as gospel?  Who is being bowed to, commanding respect and being called master?  What does that have to do with Steve Vick or Olympic Taekwondo?


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> This BOARD is, huh?  That's funny.  Seems to me like it just says "Tae Kwon Do."  Or is the Olympic version of the art the only one that counts?




I think he means this "thread", which is about taekwondo in the olympic games, not itf.


----------



## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> In Newfoundland you have to be 18 and a black belt to win by knockout or even kick to the head.



In the US, for 14-17 year olds, you can kick full contact to the head and win by knockout, same as the WTF Competition Rules.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> I think he means this "thread", which is about taekwondo in the olympic games, not itf.



I assume so, though that particular bit of conversation was about an ITF school that I was involved with.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Face up to him how?  Should I challenge him to an honor duel to the death?
> 
> He knows I dislike him.  He could feel it, apparently.  Though for the record I ALWAYS showed respect.  Yes, sir.  No, sir.  I didn't question him in the middle of class.  And when I wanted to seek out another instructor I politely asked if that would be a problem (because there is a whole protocol within the local ITF scene about how you're supposed to switch from one instructor to another).
> 
> And you know what I got in return?  He suggested to other instructors that they not train me because I wouldn't respect them.  In reality, that's not true at all.  I just didn't respect HIM . . . but still gave the necessary outward show of respect.



Until you got here, behind his back, in front of all of us.  Nice     I have to give ETinCYQX crdit, he is not doing anything behind anyone's back, and is being up front about how he thinks and how his instructor thinks.


----------



## ETinCYQX

puunui said:


> In the US, for 14-17 year olds, you can kick full contact to the head and win by knockout, same as the WTF Competition Rules.



I should clarify that our Provincial tournament and anything else we host higher than that follows WTF competition rules, the more conservative rules are for local tournaments under the Newfoundland and Labrador Taekwondo Federation only.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> LOL @ a black belt being a "novice unskilled competitor."
> 
> You crack me up MASTERcole.


I know, Im still trying to get my head around that one. That was gold.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> This BOARD is, huh?  That's funny.  Seems to me like it just says "Tae Kwon Do."  Or is the Olympic version of the art the only one that counts?
> 
> Also, I mentioned that he was an ITF instructor, so his students would be ITF students, who do semi-contact sparring.  Try to keep up.



Name of thread:  Taekwondo: Out of the Olympic Games after Brazil 2016?


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Until you got here, behind his back, in front of all of us.  Nice     I have to give ETinCYQX crdit, he is not doing anything behind anyone's back, and is being up front about how he thinks and how his instructor thinks.



Well for one, that was something like 3 years ago.  It was also intertwined with a college course I was taking for credit, so I wasn't going to endanger my grade.  I'm not a fool.  And finally, I didn't want to endanger my standing in the organization, because I was really hoping to find a different instructor and continue my training.


----------



## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> I know, Im still trying to get my head around that one. That was gold.



The interesting thing is that he hasn't addressed the issue, despite it being brought up multiple times.

Then again, whenever he's "got" he just ignores it . . . kind of like when he said "your words, not mine" about how kickboxing is a "low level thing."  When faced with his own words he just doesn't respond.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> In Newfoundland you have to be 18 and a black belt to win by knockout or even kick to the head.
> 
> You and I both know this was never about 8 year olds and you're grasping at straws to make me look like a thug.



You called yourself a thug, no me.  I was talking about your 8 year old students parents. I was not talking about 18 year old competitors at tournaments, but then of course you knew that.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Name of thread:  Taekwondo: Out of the Olympic Games after Brazil 2016?



And you know that doesn't have anything to do with a conversation about me competing against ITF TKDers under ITF rules.

You talk a lot about being "morally right" and "the principles of world religions" or whatever, but you're really pretty disingenuous in the way you talk to people.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> In the US, for 14-17 year olds, you can kick full contact to the head and win by knockout, same as the WTF Competition Rules.



Yes, and these are events sanctioned by the WTF Member National Association in the USA. Not inner-school local invitational events.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> You called yourself a thug, no me.  I was talking about your 8 year old students parents. I was not talking about 18 year old competitors at tournaments, but then of course you knew that.



Sure thug was my words I'll give you that. We started with adult competitors, I offered my views on that, and you brought that around to my kid students. And yes I encourage my younger students to give it their all and never slow down because they're winning. It's also a completely different ruleset and dynamic.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Yes, and these are events sanctioned by the WTF Member National Association in the USA. Not inner-school local invitational events.



I'll clarify a little, I wasn't specific. NFLD has its own WTF association that all our WTF and KKW stuff goes through and they sanction the tournaments I refer to as "local". There's generally both Chong Lee and Woo Young Jung KKW schools competing. I don't recall a third Grandmaster represented amongst Kukkiwon schools on the island currently.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> I should clarify that our Provincial tournament and anything else we host higher than that follows WTF competition rules, the more conservative rules are for local tournaments under the Newfoundland and Labrador Taekwondo Federation only.



Yes, and wouldn't it be appalling for a very skilled fighter, a worthy contender from one of your higher WTF events to enter a local, conservative event, and knockout the unskilled unprepared participants?  Or is that OK because they weigh the same, and each has on a black belt?


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> Yes, and wouldn't it be appalling for a very skilled fighter, a worthy contender from one of your higher WTF events to enter a local, conservative event, and knockout the unskilled unprepared participants?  Or is that OK because they weigh the same, and each has on a black belt?



Hundred percent Ok. Our adult black belt competitors can hang with anyone else's.

We don't produce "unskilled, unprepared" anything. Newfoundland black belts are legit martial artists and as good as anyone else, not some schmuck in a black belt.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> I know, Im still trying to get my head around that one. That was gold.



Right, because in your imagination all black belts are skilled competitors. I guess as a black belt yourself, you consider yourself to be a skilled competitor?


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Well for one, that was something like 3 years ago.  It was also intertwined with a college course I was taking for credit, so I wasn't going to endanger my grade.  I'm not a fool.  And finally, I didn't want to endanger my standing in the organization, because I was really hoping to find a different instructor and continue my training.



Oh, that explains your disrespecting him behind his back. OK, I get it now.  Thanks.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Oh, that explains your disrespecting him behind his back. OK, I get it now.  Thanks.



Okay, you're right.  I guess I should find his number and call him up and say, "Hey, you remember me from 3 years ago?  Well I just wanted to let you know what's up before I mention you on an Internet forum."

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ETinCYQX

I've been lucky, I've liked all my instructors. I'd point it out had I not; but I think very highly of all of them


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> Yes, and wouldn't it be appalling for a very skilled fighter, a worthy contender from one of your higher WTF events to enter a local, conservative event, and knockout the unskilled unprepared participants?  Or is that OK because they weigh the same, and each has on a black belt?



I can understand what mastercole is saying. In our local tournaments, our national champion/national team member types don't usually compete at local or even state championships, and when they do, they usually take it easy on the outmatched competitors. They usually do just enough to let the other side know that they are outclassed, seriously outclassed. Sometimes the local competitor gets brave, thinking he can pull a rocky and win against the champion. But taekwondo competition has evolved so much that the likelyhood of that happening is incredibly small. Sometimes the local competitor gets knocked out anyway, running into a hook kick or back kick to the face for example, or they come in and get hit so hard in the body that they fold over and can't continue. Or sometimes the local competitor gets in there and intentionally punches the face of the elite athlete, at which point the elite athlete knocks the local competitor out. But usually the local competitor knows he is outclassed, in footwork, speed, timing, experience, etc. that they may try some stuff, but they end up backing off too, because they know if they push it, there is a real possibility of getting seriously hurt.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> And you know that doesn't have anything to do with a conversation about me competing against ITF TKDers under ITF rules.



I don't recall this being a conversation about ITF and ITF rules. Maybe you are confusing this with a different thread?



SPX said:


> You talk a lot about being "morally right" and "the principles of world religions" or whatever, but you're really pretty disingenuous in the way you talk to people.



It is morally wrong to physically harm others during competition with a motives to take revenge on your old instructor whom you hate, or just to gain glory and impress impressionable young people who like your hair and might consider you there hero, bask in glory, etc.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Hundred percent Ok. Our adult black belt competitors can hang with anyone else's.
> 
> We don't produce "unskilled, unprepared" anything. Newfoundland black belts are legit martial artists and as good as anyone else, not some schmuck in a black belt.



You are avoiding my direct question. But I understand why now.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> I don't recall this being a conversation about ITF and ITF rules. Maybe you are confusing this with a different thread?



Oh really?  That's weird. . .  So you haven't even known what you are talking about?

Start here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...Games-after-Brazil-2016&p=1457325#post1457325


----------



## ETinCYQX

puunui said:


> I can understand what mastercole is saying. In our local tournaments, our national champion/national team member types don't usually compete at local or even state championships, and when they do, they usually take it easy on the outmatched competitors. They usually do just enough to let the other side know that they are outclassed, seriously outclassed. Sometimes the local competitor gets brave, thinking he can pull a rocky and win against the champion. But taekwondo competition has evolved so much that the likelyhood of that happening is incredibly small. Sometimes the local competitor gets knocked out anyway, running into a hook kick or back kick to the face for example, or they come in and get hit so hard in the body that they fold over and can't continue. Or sometimes the local competitor gets in there and intentionally punches the face of the elite athlete, at which point the elite athlete knocks the local competitor out. But usually the local competitor knows he is outclassed, in footwork, speed, timing, experience, etc. that they may try some stuff, but they end up backing off too, because they know if they push it, there is a real possibility of getting seriously hurt.



That's a reasonable point; generally works the same here. The highest level fighters avoid everything including Provincials if possible and most don't fight in the province very often. When they do it's generally a handpicked match against each other or a usual sparring partner.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> Okay, you're right.  I guess I should find his number and call him up and say, "Hey, you remember me from 3 years ago?  Well I just wanted to let you know what's up before I mention you on an Internet forum."
> 
> LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Nothing like letting him know directly. That way you don't have to take your anger out on others.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> . . . impress impressionable young people who like your hair. . .



For the record, the "hair" comment was a quote from the movie "The Fast and the Furious," though I admit that to many people that won't be obvious.

For 80s hair though, his is pretty awesome.  Like his yellow and maroon dobok with stars on it.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> You are avoiding my direct question. But I understand why now.



Am I? You asked if that situation would be appalling and I said it would be a hundred percent OK. I wouldn't call it appalling. It's not quite the same thing as we were discussing but I wouldn't call it appalling regardless. I'd wonder why they'd bothered showing up, to be honest, but I'd be quite excited to see one of the really high level competitors show up.

Why am I avoiding it?


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> It is morally wrong to physically harm others during competition with a motives to take revenge on your old instructor whom you hate, or just to gain glory and impress impressionable young people who like your hair and might consider you there hero, bask in glory, etc.



I agree. But if they maliciously and purposely punch a competitor's face with intent to cause severe physical injury, then at point, it becomes a self defense situation justifying a knockout, in my opinion.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> Nothing like letting him know directly. That way you don't have to take your anger out on others.



You know, I tried hard to talk to him about a lot of things, but I kept getting interrupted mid-way in the first sentence that came out of my mouth.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> For the record, the "hair" comment was a quote from the movie "The Fast and the Furious," though I admit that to many people that won't be obvious.
> 
> For 80s hair though, his is pretty awesome.  Like his yellow and maroon dobok with stars on it.



If you say so. And, for the record, I don't know if you are male of female, if that matters.


----------



## SPX

mastercole said:


> If you say so. And, for the record, I don't know if you are male of female, if that matters.



I'm male.  Though I might go gay for Steve Vick.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Am I? You asked if that situation would be appalling and I said it would be a hundred percent OK. I wouldn't call it appalling. It's not quite the same thing as we were discussing but I wouldn't call it appalling regardless. I'd wonder why they'd bothered showing up, to be honest, but I'd be quite excited to see one of the really high level competitors show up.
> 
> Why am I avoiding it?



You know why. I could direct you back to what I wrote in the post, but you are already aware of it, because you have been skirting the issue all along. Again, it's OK. I really just wanted to know where you and your instructors stand on the issue of highly skilled fighters not taking it easy, and going for the knockout when they face novice unskilled participants, and now I know. Thank you.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> That's a reasonable point; generally works the same here. The highest level fighters avoid everything including Provincials if possible and most don't fight in the province very often. When they do it's generally a handpicked match against each other or a usual sparring partner.



But according to your logic, and that of your instructors, if the unskilled did somehow end up in the ring with the skilled, and the skilled recognized the great disparity of the situation, he should go in for the kill anyway and knockout the unskilled player, because, they are the same weight and both wear the black belt. So let the teeth fall where they may.


----------



## ETinCYQX

No, really I don't. I've told you my views on each situation you've offered, each one different from the last, and I don't know what question you think I'm avoiding.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> I agree. But if they maliciously and purposely punch a competitor's face with intent to cause severe physical injury, then at point, it becomes a self defense situation justifying a knockout, in my opinion.



Oh, without a doubt.


----------



## ETinCYQX

mastercole said:


> But according to your logic, and that of your instructors, if the unskilled did somehow end up in the ring with the skilled, and the skilled recognized the great disparity of the situation, he should go in for the kill anyway and knockout the unskilled player, because, they are the same weight and both wear the black belt. So let the teeth fall where they may.



Sure. No different than Micheal Jordan thrashing some knob in a game of one on one or anything to that regard.

I'm sure you know this but I don't mean go wildly for the knockout, I mean win the fight without holding back whichever way happens. I didn't say I'd do it every time but I don't fault anyone for it even at the local level. If you want me to agree with you, fine, if in some alternate universe I was a Canadian champion or prospect to become such, I probably wouldn't come home to Newfoundland provincials and tear everyone's head off. Doesn't mean I consider it wrong.


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Sure. No different than Micheal Jordan thrashing some knob in a game of one on one or anything to that regard.
> 
> I'm sure you know this but I don't mean go wildly for the knockout, I mean win the fight without holding back whichever way happens. I didn't say I'd do it every time but I don't fault anyone for it even at the local level. If you want me to agree with you, fine, if in some alternate universe I was a Canadian champion or prospect to become such, I probably wouldn't come home to Newfoundland provincials and tear everyone's head off. Doesn't mean I consider it wrong.



Thanks for clarifying that. I'm glad we were able to figure all this out in such a short time.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Yeah, it's only 5 am here


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Right, because in your imagination all black belts are skilled competitors. I guess as a black belt yourself, you consider yourself to be a skilled competitor?



In what Ive learned, definetly (except for the competitor bit). There is no way an unskilled novice gets a black belt where I train. Could I compete in a wtf comp, hell no, I dont even know the rules. But then could your boy steven compete in a boxing touurnament, off course not. In what I do I am black belt standard, 2nd dan in june if all goes well.


----------



## Cyriacus

ralphmcpherson said:


> In what Ive learned, definetly (except for the competitor bit). There is no way an unskilled novice gets a black belt where I train. Could I compete in a wtf comp, hell no, I dont even know the rules. But then could your boy steven compete in a boxing touurnament, off course not. In what I do I am black belt standard, 2nd dan in june if all goes well.


And hopefully it will.

Now, on topic, Skillsets for a Black Belt will vary from place to place. Especially KKW Dojangs. Which stems back to how Theyre being taught. Some KKW Dojangs are more like Kicking Gyms with other stuff. Some are more SD Oriented. To put both at opposite ends of a spectrum, from side A, You may have a Black Belt whod lose to a Green Belt. On the other side, You may have a Black Belt who should have had it when He WAS a Green Belt. But by another Dojangs Standards, That Black Belt who should have had it when He was a Green Belt might be a Beginner in the grand scheme of things. Its a complicated topic, and there is no "This is the Answer". Only, the Answer will Vary from Dojang to Dojang.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Cyriacus said:


> And hopefully it will.
> 
> Now, on topic, Skillsets for a Black Belt will vary from place to place. Especially KKW Dojangs. Which stems back to how Theyre being taught. Some KKW Dojangs are more like Kicking Gyms with other stuff. Some are more SD Oriented. To put both at opposite ends of a spectrum, from side A, You may have a Black Belt whod lose to a Green Belt. On the other side, You may have a Black Belt who should have had it when He WAS a Green Belt. But by another Dojangs Standards, That Black Belt who should have had it when He was a Green Belt might be a Beginner in the grand scheme of things. Its a complicated topic, and there is no "This is the Answer". Only, the Answer will Vary from Dojang to Dojang.


True, and if I was a school owner I would not to be sending sub par students off to competitions to represent my school. The quality of black belts says a lot about a school in my opinion.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> True, and if I was a school owner I would not to be sending sub par students off to competitions to represent my school. The quality of black belts says a lot about a school in my opinion.



Which brings up an interesting topic. How does one determine what a quality black belt is?  By who's standard?  Are you or I in a position as black belt holders to judge the quality of another schools black belt students?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Which brings up an interesting topic. How does one determine what a quality black belt is?  By who's standard?  Are you or I in a position as black belt holders to judge the quality of another schools black belt students?


Good question. I think Id start by working out the bare minimum level required. I would probably have that minimum standard at a point where it could never be described as "unskilled or novice" by another black belt. I also think black belt is a mental thing, and I think seeing people genuinely looking scared and back pedalling goes against the mindset of a black belt, the indominatable spirit. Im not so much surprised they are black belt as much as Im disappointed that an instructor would send that guy off to a tournament where they are way out of their depth. Surely the coach/instructor owes it to their student to say "you are not ready to compete yet?" ie you are not a black belt yet.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Markku P said:


> Next year will be quite an important year for the Taekwondo community. The IOC will be making decisions whether to keep Taekwondo as an Olympic sport. We have to brace ourselves and be ready to the possibility that Taekwondo wont be part of the Olympic Games after 2016. And should that happen, how will this affect us?As a Taekwondo school owner, I dont think theres any effect at all. People who have started training with me dont care at all if we are an Olympic sport or not.
> 
> Taekwondo is also very small in our country so we dont get much publicity. We might get some if someone is fighting at the Olympics. But so far, we havent won any medals so big for media to show any interest.But for me, personally, it would be very sad if we are not part of the Olympics. But like I mentioned earlier, it wont have any effect on my own training or how I operate my school.
> 
> The national federations might be a different story though. In some countries, I suspect that they will get less money from their national Olympic committees and that will surely have a negative effect on their operations.Is being in the Olympic Games necessary for us?Well, not for individual schools. But for the national federations, it is quite important because of the money and status. But for people like me who are focusing more on average Taekwondo students, everything will stay the same. So it really doesnt matter if we are on the Olympics or not.
> 
> But what do you think?
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Markku Parviainen​




I agree that it won't be a sea change for many owners but for real...I definitely want and strongly am attached to TKD as a Olympic sport too. Plus WTF and ITF would reaaalllly start sniping with each other absent the Olympics.


----------



## mastercole

ATACX GYM said:


> I agree that it won't be a sea change for many owners but for real...I definitely want and strongly am attached to TKD as a Olympic sport too. Plus WTF and ITF would reaaalllly start sniping with each other absent the Olympics.



Where do you see that WTF ever "snipped" at ITF?


----------



## ATACX GYM

mastercole said:


> Where do you see that WTF ever "snipped" at ITF?



Uh-oh. Lemme backpedal a bit. 


I am notoriously apolitical when it comes to martial arts. I do, however, have quite a few friends who are part of either ITF or WTF and each alleges that the other has sniped at, or dissed in some way, their organization by doing such and such. Ohhh...they're not preserving the martial art of TKD and they're damaging it by making it into that floppy falling kicking sporty thing. Ohhhh those guys are closeminded neanderthals who'll get their heads kicked off because Olympians are STILL OLYMPIANS and can perform their techs just fine in a street fight thanks vs a bunch of non-Olympians who don't even know what's coming at them. Ohhhh this and ohhhh that.

I guess I flashed back to those conversations when I wrote that each organization or more accurately MEMBERS  from each organization have voiced their disagreements about the other to me during conversations over the years. I don't have a horse in this race and I don't even fully recall the quotes because I kinda go mentally to Channel Fuzz when martial arts politics comes up.

so yeah, that's my position in reality mastercole.


----------



## mastercole

ATACX GYM said:


> Uh-oh. Lemme backpedal a bit.
> 
> 
> I am notoriously apolitical when it comes to martial arts. I do, however, have quite a few friends who are part of either ITF or WTF and each alleges that the other has sniped at, or dissed in some way, their organization by doing such and such. Ohhh...they're not preserving the martial art of TKD and they're damaging it by making it into that floppy falling kicking sporty thing. Ohhhh those guys are closeminded neanderthals who'll get their heads kicked off because Olympians are STILL OLYMPIANS and can perform their techs just fine in a street fight thanks vs a bunch of non-Olympians who don't even know what's coming at them. Ohhhh this and ohhhh that.
> 
> I guess I flashed back to those conversations when I wrote that each organization or more accurately MEMBERS  from each organization have voiced their disagreements about the other to me during conversations over the years. I don't have a horse in this race and I don't even fully recall the quotes because I kinda go mentally to Channel Fuzz when martial arts politics comes up.
> 
> so yeah, that's my position in reality mastercole.



Thanks for your reply. I was not questioning your position. And of course we are all apolitical until someone is trying to kill us, then it gets real political all of a sudden 

My question was intended to point out the the WTF publishes or makes no statements in regards to the ITF, and never has.  There was never any conflict between the WTF and the ITF.  The ITF only states there is a conflict and some naive people are brainwashed by it, or, if they are not naive, they simply support this North Korean propaganda.

To clarify, the so-called conflict (attacks) are one sided, they come from the North Korean Terrorist. What we have learned from CHOI Hong Hi's son is that there exist the North Korean terrorist and propaganda agency called the United Front Department. He states that ITF became a tool of this department in 1979, and the ITF, his father CHOI Hong Hi's private business, began receiving over the years 10's of millions of dollars. The ITF was used by this United Front Department to spread propaganda against, and damage South Korea's #1 export to the world, Taekwondo, and by extension cause great harm to the USA's Cold War effort.  This propaganda designed by North Korea's United Front Department consisted of statements like "The martial art found in South Korea today is a bastardized version of the original", "Taekwondo today in South Korea has lost it's martial arts nature and has become just a sport", "Kukkiwon was built with South Korean (and American) government funds", "CHOI Hong Hi is the founder of Taekwondo", etc and so on.

The ITF even trained North Korean assassins and terrorist who murderer individuals, blew up a jumbo jet in flight in 1987 killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children, and so on, and so on.

This 10's of millions of dollars was spent wisely by North Korea, using CHOI Hong Hi's ITF as it's #1 agent against South Korea and it's Ally the United States. It was so effective that even today, we have Americans, and even some Koreans, among others who repeat this propaganda. Now most I assume probably do not know the true history, roots and intent of this propaganda and are merely victims of it, however, some who are now aware that this is a department of terrorism's propaganda still repeat it.

Even with all this, the WTF still makes no statement in regard to the ITF.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> Even with all this, the WTF still makes no statement in regard to the ITF.



And not only that, tries its best to welcome ITF members into both the WTF competition world as well as the Kukkiwon world. Many ITF members or former members have become competitors, coaches, and leaders within kukki taekwondo. GM KIM Bong Sik, a former ITF member who used to lead teams to Vietnam, was a Past WTF Secretary General. Dr. YANG Dong Ja took a team to the first ITF World Championships in 1974, and in 1978 Dr. Yang was elected as President of the USTU and later President of PATU.


----------



## SPX

I believe he was referring more to the way that individual practitioners have take shots at those on the other side.

Here's something I found on a random website that I feel illustrates at least some TKDists positions on both sides of the fence:

*
ITF assessment of  WTF stylists:*

All they do is fancy foot and legwork with a lot of sound. No real power. Everything is geared to competition and tournaments. No spiritual arts, and a lot of good foot techniques such as twisting front kick(a kick that springs up from a standing position both feet facing forward, foot is twisted inwards and kicked up towards the opponents nosebridge at an angle)are lost, and everything is competition oriented. The practicality of the martial arts is lost for speed and points in tournaments. Upper body and hand movements are not emphasized nor does it call for hitting/striking the face/head as in real fighting, or close range when someone is tackled.  Thus the students are only skilled in playing  tag points . No real practical value in actual fighting. The head of WTF is not a TKD practitioner but a bureaucratic figurehead which is why WTF certificates are signed Dr. Un Young Kim. He has neither demonstrated nor taught TKD.   The WTF patterns are of no aesthetic value, it is just a breakdown mix and match of ITF forms. No beauty in forms. Taekwondo?  Gaekwondo  is more like it.(Note:   Gae  is dog in Korean, loosely translated, it means  dog pawing ).


*WTF assessment of ITF stylists:
*
Outdated and limited kicking techniques taught by old masters that have no practical application & imagination for WTF sparring. Non contact or light contact pussyfooters -because one is conditioned to fight non-contact or light contact,  they get blown away in  real  hard full contact sparring situations. Impractical sparring moves-eg. blocking instead of dodging. Moves are too slow for practicality and vulnerable. (e.g. plain wheel kick, where the heel is turned in an arc towards the opponent s head by turning back without hooking at the knee ).  Too low and wide stances that slows down each movement and telegraphs your move. No power nor speed in moves. No efficient aerial kick techniques that require high skill which can be devastating,. No innovations or development in their moves. Thus the students have limited skills.  ITF TKD? Gimme a break.


----------



## mastercole

SPX said:


> I believe he was referring more to the way that individual practitioners have take shots at those on the other side.
> 
> Here's something I found on a random website that I feel illustrates at least some TKDists positions on both sides of the fence:
> 
> *
> ITF assessment of  WTF stylists:*
> 
> All they do is fancy foot and legwork with a lot of sound. No real power. Everything is geared to competition and tournaments. No spiritual arts, and a lot of good foot techniques such as twisting front kick(a kick that springs up from a standing position both feet facing forward, foot is twisted inwards and kicked up towards the opponents nosebridge at an angle)are lost, and everything is competition oriented. The practicality of the martial arts is lost for speed and points in tournaments. Upper body and hand movements are not emphasized nor does it call for hitting/striking the face/head as in real fighting, or close range when someone is tackled.  Thus the students are only skilled in playing  tag points . No real practical value in actual fighting. The head of WTF is not a TKD practitioner but a bureaucratic figurehead which is why WTF certificates are signed Dr. Un Young Kim. He has neither demonstrated nor taught TKD.   The WTF patterns are of no aesthetic value, it is just a breakdown mix and match of ITF forms. No beauty in forms. Taekwondo?  Gaekwondo  is more like it.(Note:   Gae  is dog in Korean, loosely translated, it means  dog pawing ).
> 
> 
> *WTF assessment of ITF stylists:
> *
> Outdated and limited kicking techniques taught by old masters that have no practical application & imagination for WTF sparring. Non contact or light contact pussyfooters -because one is conditioned to fight non-contact or light contact,  they get blown away in  real  hard full contact sparring situations. Impractical sparring moves-eg. blocking instead of dodging. Moves are too slow for practicality and vulnerable. (e.g. plain wheel kick, where the heel is turned in an arc towards the opponent s head by turning back without hooking at the knee ).  Too low and wide stances that slows down each movement and telegraphs your move. No power nor speed in moves. No efficient aerial kick techniques that require high skill which can be devastating,. No innovations or development in their moves. Thus the students have limited skills.  ITF TKD? Gimme a break.



The WTF never made that assessment.

Again, never any official comments from the WTF.

What you posted might possibly be persons who compete in WTF events arguing against the propaganda from North Korea's United Front Department. It's not a debate between ITF and WTF, no debate has ever existed.


----------



## SPX

Well that's why I said he's probably referring to the back-and-forth "sniping" of individual practitioners. . .


----------



## Bob Hubbard

mastercole said:


> Thanks for your reply. I was not questioning your position. And of course we are all apolitical until someone is trying to kill us, then it gets real political all of a sudden
> 
> My question was intended to point out the the WTF publishes or makes no statements in regards to the ITF, and never has.  There was never any conflict between the WTF and the ITF.  The ITF only states there is a conflict and some naive people are brainwashed by it, or, if they are not naive, they simply support this North Korean propaganda.
> 
> To clarify, the so-called conflict (attacks) are one sided, they come from the North Korean Terrorist. What we have learned from CHOI Hong Hi's son is that there exist the North Korean terrorist and propaganda agency called the United Front Department. He states that ITF became a tool of this department in 1979, and the ITF, his father CHOI Hong Hi's private business, began receiving over the years 10's of millions of dollars. The ITF was used by this United Front Department to spread propaganda against, and damage South Korea's #1 export to the world, Taekwondo, and by extension cause great harm to the USA's Cold War effort.  This propaganda designed by North Korea's United Front Department consisted of statements like "The martial art found in South Korea today is a bastardized version of the original", "Taekwondo today in South Korea has lost it's martial arts nature and has become just a sport", "Kukkiwon was built with South Korean (and American) government funds", "CHOI Hong Hi is the founder of Taekwondo", etc and so on.
> 
> The ITF even trained North Korean assassins and terrorist who murderer individuals, blew up a jumbo jet in flight in 1987 killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children, and so on, and so on.
> 
> This 10's of millions of dollars was spent wisely by North Korea, using CHOI Hong Hi's ITF as it's #1 agent against South Korea and it's Ally the United States. It was so effective that even today, we have Americans, and even some Koreans, among others who repeat this propaganda. Now most I assume probably do not know the true history, roots and intent of this propaganda and are merely victims of it, however, some who are now aware that this is a department of terrorism's propaganda still repeat it.
> 
> Even with all this, the WTF still makes no statement in regard to the ITF.



Those are some very strong accusations. Can you verify that? Because some might suggest such a broad attack to be libelous.


----------



## mastercole

Bob Hubbard said:


> Those are some very strong accusations. Can you verify that? Because some might suggest such a broad attack to be libelous.



They are not accusations, they are facts, and it's all available on the internet from authoritative sources via biographical statements from the terrorist who actually murdered those people, and from CHOI Hong Hi's own son, who is also listed by name in a publication titled the "Terrorist List."   I take it you have not yet read any of this?


----------



## Tez3

mastercole said:


> They are not accusations, they are facts, and it's all available on the internet from authoritative sources via biographical statements from the terrorist who actually murdered those people, and from CHOI Hong Hi's own son, who is also listed by name in a publication titled the "Terrorist List." I take it you have not yet read any of this?



Can you give us some links? They still look like allegations unless the so called authorative sources are impeccable, impartial and legal. I can't find any mention on Google of any publication called 'The Terrorist List', if there were one that had any authority it would be in our office. We have no Korean terrorist groups on our lists at present.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/public...d-terror-groups/proscribed-groups?view=Binary

Looking through terrorist lists I can find no mention of any North Korean terrorist group that is associated with any TKD group, there certainly are terrorist groups though I imagine being state sponsored they don't see themselves like that. No mentions of TKD or ITF at all.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7605935.stm

This BBC story gives a different version in that North Korean agents infiltrated the ITF. That's not the same as the ITF _being_ the terrorist organisation, if it had been a terrorist organisation trained and organised by the North Koreans they would hardly have had to infiltrate it would they?  My money is on the BBC version being correct.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

mastercole said:


> They are not accusations, they are facts, and it's all available on the internet from authoritative sources via biographical statements from the terrorist who actually murdered those people, and from CHOI Hong Hi's own son, who is also listed by name in a publication titled the "Terrorist List."   I take it you have not yet read any of this?



I've got FoxNews to read for the obscure and bizarre stuff. So, for stuff like this, credible and verifiable works. Some anonymous guy on a weblog, not so much.  Your reply didn't really say anything despite the amount of words used.  Your claims run the risk of putting this site and myself at some potential risk, so when someone posts something like that, I'm inclined to demand actual proof be posted or lean towards removing the problem entirely.


----------



## Tez3

Allegations along these lines are very serious, there's implications for the ITF in the UK who are recognised by Sport England and other government sponsored organisations, if allegations of terrorism are to fly around there would be unpleasant consequences I imagine.


----------



## mastercole

Bob Hubbard said:


> I've got FoxNews to read for the obscure and bizarre stuff. So, for stuff like this, credible and verifiable works. Some anonymous guy on a weblog, not so much.  Your reply didn't really say anything despite the amount of words used.  Your claims run the risk of putting this site and myself at some potential risk, so when someone posts something like that, I'm inclined to demand actual proof be posted or lean towards removing the problem entirely.



I agree, I certainly don't want to put the site at risk. Please see the new thread for verifiable works.


----------



## ATACX GYM

SPX said:


> I believe he was referring more to the way that individual practitioners have take shots at those on the other side.
> 
> Here's something I found on a random website that I feel illustrates at least some TKDists positions on both sides of the fence:
> 
> *
> ITF assessment of  WTF stylists:*
> 
> All they do is fancy foot and legwork with a lot of sound. No real power. Everything is geared to competition and tournaments. No spiritual arts, and a lot of good foot techniques such as twisting front kick(a kick that springs up from a standing position both feet facing forward, foot is twisted inwards and kicked up towards the opponents nosebridge at an angle)are lost, and everything is competition oriented. The practicality of the martial arts is lost for speed and points in tournaments. Upper body and hand movements are not emphasized nor does it call for hitting/striking the face/head as in real fighting, or close range when someone is tackled.  Thus the students are only skilled in playing  tag points . No real practical value in actual fighting. The head of WTF is not a TKD practitioner but a bureaucratic figurehead which is why WTF certificates are signed Dr. Un Young Kim. He has neither demonstrated nor taught TKD.   The WTF patterns are of no aesthetic value, it is just a breakdown mix and match of ITF forms. No beauty in forms. Taekwondo?  Gaekwondo  is more like it.(Note:   Gae  is dog in Korean, loosely translated, it means  dog pawing ).
> 
> 
> *WTF assessment of ITF stylists:
> *
> Outdated and limited kicking techniques taught by old masters that have no practical application & imagination for WTF sparring. Non contact or light contact pussyfooters -because one is conditioned to fight non-contact or light contact,  they get blown away in  real  hard full contact sparring situations. Impractical sparring moves-eg. blocking instead of dodging. Moves are too slow for practicality and vulnerable. (e.g. plain wheel kick, where the heel is turned in an arc towards the opponent s head by turning back without hooking at the knee ).  Too low and wide stances that slows down each movement and telegraphs your move. No power nor speed in moves. No efficient aerial kick techniques that require high skill which can be devastating,. No innovations or development in their moves. Thus the students have limited skills.  ITF TKD? Gimme a break.





This is exactly what I meant...and I don't want to stir up any political beehives. Let's keep with the reality that comes from the mat, the ring, and the street. Political information is crucial and necessary but it may be a serious contributor to thread drift...


----------



## mastercole

ATACX GYM said:


> This is exactly what I meant...and I don't want to stir up any political beehives. Let's keep with the reality that comes from the mat, the ring, and the street. Political information is crucial and necessary but it may be a serious contributor to thread drift...



A new thread started, go check it out.


----------



## Tez3

Starting a new thread in the same vein doesn't exactly safeguard Bob and MT does it? All it stops is thread drift.


----------



## TaekwonPRO

Markku P said:


> Next year will be quite an important year for the Taekwondo community. The IOC will be making decisions whether to keep Taekwondo as an Olympic sport. We have to brace ourselves and be ready to the possibility that Taekwondo wont be part of the Olympic Games after 2016. And should that happen, how will this affect us?As a Taekwondo school owner, I dont think theres any effect at all. People who have started training with me dont care at all if we are an Olympic sport or not.
> 
> Taekwondo is also very small in our country so we dont get much publicity. We might get some if someone is fighting at the Olympics. But so far, we havent won any medals so big for media to show any interest.But for me, personally, it would be very sad if we are not part of the Olympics. But like I mentioned earlier, it wont have any effect on my own training or how I operate my school.
> 
> The national federations might be a different story though. In some countries, I suspect that they will get less money from their national Olympic committees and that will surely have a negative effect on their operations.Is being in the Olympic Games necessary for us?Well, not for individual schools. But for the national federations, it is quite important because of the money and status. But for people like me who are focusing more on average Taekwondo students, everything will stay the same. So it really doesnt matter if we are on the Olympics or not.
> 
> But what do you think?
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Markku Parviainen​



The Philippines just gave a massive government grant to Taekwondo and Boxing for Olympic purposes, though....I don't think they're too worried.


----------

