# Motobuha Shito Ryu (info wanted)



## Big Game (Jan 29, 2003)

I am looking for info on Motobuha Shito Ryu.  The Soke of the style ( Shiho Karano Ryu )I'm training in, studied Motobuha Shito Ryu while in Japan and was the second American to receive a black belt in this style.  My Soke, Soke Reidner, went on to study other various styles which led him to develop Shiho Karano Ryu.  

I am interested in learning the Japanese history of the styles that encompass Shiho Karano Ryu.  Mainly what I would like to do is look at some of the similar katas and techniques that are similar.  

If you know of any books, websites, or info please let me know.

Thanks


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

Oh God.. not another foreigner claiming to be a *Soke* 


For some information on the dubious claims of Albert Church and Kuniba go here: 

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/sea...d=160085&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

As for finding anything about the arts that make up Shiho Karano Ryu I doubt you will find anything that can be authenticated here in Japan.
Churchs claims were just as hard to corroborate so I doubt Riedners will be any easier.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

Soke:
Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements  
by William M. Bodiford  
Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster." 


Confusion over the word soke, however, is not confined to people who lack Japanese-language skills; it exists in Japan as well. These misunderstandings arise because in premodern and modern Japan the term represents different (yet related) meanings and connotations depending on the diverse contexts in which it appears. We can distinguish several different patterns of usage associated with the term soke throughout Japanese history.3 For this reason, when describing soke in English (or, rather, when arguing about its meaning) it is useful first to chronicle the many ways that this word has been used in the historical record. Then one can better evaluate the ways that this term has been conceptualized by modern writers and applied (or misapplied) in contemporary situations.

Soke originated as a Chinese word (Mandarin zongjia) with strong familial and religious connotations. Etymologically it is written with glyphs indicating a family that performs ancestor rites. In Chinese texts it designates either the members of a household belonging to the same clan or the main lineage within an extended clan, the head of which was responsible for maintaining the ancestral temple on behalf of the entire clan organization. In Japanese texts as well, soke always implied a familial relationship replete with filial duties. Japanese use of this word was not limited to consanguineous contexts, though, since many kinds of social relationships were organized around pseudo-familial models. Religious societies, commercial enterprises, and teaching organizations all employed familial vocabulary and observed rites of familial etiquette. In these contexts, the term soke often implied exclusivity and commercial privilege, with less emphasis on formal religious duties.

For most of early Japanese history the privileges of power, wealth, and civilization were controlled exclusively by the court, the aristocrats, and the Buddhist clergy, all three of which reinforced one another in mutual dependence. As Buddhist clerics developed their combined exoteric-esoteric (ken-mitsu) form of tantra, they gave rise to a shared "culture of secret transmission" (Stone, 97-152). In other words, Buddhist pedagogical systems in which tantric rituals were taught via oral initiations (kuden) available only to members of exclusive master-disciple lineages became the normative teaching method across elite society (Nishiyama 1982b, 146-147). Within this culture, the arts of civilization prized most by wealthy nobles became the exclusive property of certain families. For example, the Nijo and Reizei branches of the aristocratic Fujiwara family each taught and maintained control over mutually exclusive systems of initiation into the mysteries of Japanese poetics (waka). Lower down on the economic ladder, designated merchant families exercised exclusive commercial control over the production and distribution of certain types of manufactured goods used by aristocrats, such as extravagant ceramics (for example, raku ware; Nishiyama 1982b, 51). Those families maintained their hereditary monopolies through the protection and patronage of local nobles or of the court.

These families operated much like corporate entities in which many affiliated kinship groups functioned in unison. Among the members of the united kinship groups only the individual successor--usually the oldest son--of the current family head received full initiation into the secrets of the family craft. Even if proper male progeny did not exist, economic necessity demanded that the main family line always continue since hereditary authority rested with that family alone. Whenever required, therefore, another male from one of the affiliated groups would be brought in and designated as heir to succeed the head of the family. The heir, whether related by blood or adopted, was responsible for maintaining the unity of the corporate families, maintaining their commercial monopoly, and maintaining their good relations with their patrons. Most of all he was responsible for preserving the secret texts, special tools, and knowledge of the oral initiations that constituted his family's exclusive lore. The legitimate possessors of that exclusive lore, both the main family itself as a multi-generational entity, and the individual current head of the family were called the soke. Use of this term was extremely limited, however, until after the establishment of the Tokugawa peace in 1603 provided the conditions for the development of new, more elaborate systems of familial privilege throughout the land. 

During the Tokugawa period (1603-1868) of Japanese history, especially during the eighteenth century, many new types of artistic and cultural activities came under the domination of families that exercised proprietary authority over the performance of those arts and endeavors by others. These new familial lineages, which essentially operated as commercial guilds, referred to themselves as soke. The leading expert on this subject is a Japanese scholar named Nishiyama Matsunosuke. Early in his career, Nishiyama wrote two seminal studies of soke families and the ways they exercised their authority during this period of Japanese history: Iemoto monogatari (Iemoto Stories, 1956; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982a) and Iemoto no kenkyu (Researches in the Iemoto System, 1960; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982b).4 Although Nishiyama settled on the term iemoto, in the Tokugawa-period texts he studied the words iemoto and soke were used interchangeably, without any distinction in meaning (Nishiyama 1982b, 15). Both words were used to refer to the main lineage that asserted proprietary authority over a commercial guild or to refer to the person who had attained full initiation as the current legitimate head of that lineage.

Nishiyama cites several factors that contributed to the development of familial lineages (i.e., soke) as commercial guilds. The Tokugawa regime placed governmental authority in the hands of an upper echelon of warrior families who maintained their positions of power through assertions of hereditary privilege and attempts to enforce rigid codes of social distinctions. These new warrior elites readily accepted similar assertions of familial authority over the codification and teaching of artistic endeavors (Nishiyama 1982b, 91-92). Moreover, the warrior rulers patronized many new performative arts and forms of amusement that had developed independently from and, thus, outside the control of the old aristocratic families. It was the teachers of these new amusements--arts such as tea ceremony (chanoyu), flower arranging (ikebana), chess (shogi), Noh theater, verse (haikai), special forms of music and dance, and so forth--that most quickly asserted familial control over their teaching and over their performance by others (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-140). Finally, the long period of peace produced many unemployed former warriors (ronin) who could seek employment as junior instructors in these guilds; at the same time, the end of incessant warfare promoted the economic prosperity that enabled townsmen and rural landowners to amass surplus wealth that they could spend as pupils of these arts.

The existence of a network of junior instructors (i.e., natori) who taught in the name of the soke is a crucial feature that distinguished Tokugawa-period soke families from their earlier counterparts (Nishiyama 1982b, 106). During the Tokugawa period, instruction in the special skills associated with a particular artistic endeavor was marketed through networks of branch instructors who paid royalties and license fees to the soke and who were organized into a pyramid-like hierarchical structure with the soke on top. The soke asserted absolute authority over the branch instructors and indirect authority over their students by controlling what, how, and when subjects could be taught and by restricting access to the most advanced lore, to which the soke alone was privy. Nishiyama labeled the social structures associated with this type of exclusive familial control and networks of branch instructors the iemoto system (iemoto seido). He saw it as a unique feature of Japanese feudalism that exerted a strong influence over the development of many traditional Japanese arts even until modern times (Nishiyama 1982b, 20-21). 

These Tokugawa-period artistic lineages can be likened to commercial guilds because they earned money from every single person who participated in their particular school's craft or art throughout the entire country. Nishiyama (1982b, 16) neatly summarizes the commercial rights (kenri) of these familial guilds as follows:

1. Rights regarding the techniques (waza) of the art, such as the right to keep it secret, the right to control how and when it is performed, and rights over the repertoire of its curriculum and its choreography (kata).

2. Rights over instructors (kyoju), over initiation rituals and documents (soden), and over the awarding of diplomas and licenses (menkyo).

3. The right to punish (chobatsu) and to expel (hamon) students.

4. The right to control uses of costumes, of stage names or artistic pseudonyms, and so forth.

5. The right to control facilities and special equipment or tools used in the art.

6. Exclusive rights to the monetary income and social status resulting from the preceding five items.

For almost every art or amusement patronized by the ruling elite, there existed only a limited number of these familial guilds, each one of which enforced the above rights over anyone who practiced that art throughout the entire kingdom.5 No one could legally perform a play, a song, a musical piece, or practice any other art in public without either joining the soke's school or paying fees for temporary permission (ichinichi soden). Enforcement of these exclusive rights enabled soke families to control huge populations of students across all strata of society. Nishiyama argues that from the middle of the eighteenth century these guilds provided a government-regulated medium for the distribution of cultural knowledge within which people assigned to different social classes (samurai of various ranks, townsmen, merchants, priests, wealthy farmers, rural warriors, etc.) could interact with one another on a near-equal footing (Nishiyama 1982b, 531; 1997, 204-208).

Nishiyama's research demonstrates that the near-monopoly control over the teaching of peaceful arts exercised by Tokugawa-period soke effectively prevented the proliferation of rival schools. In short, where soke existed, there were no new schools. The very creation of new schools repudiated any notion of soke authority (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-137). Seen in this light, it is obvious that the word soke in premodern Japanese documents could never be translated into English as "founder." The notion of "founder" is even less appropriate in modern Japan.

After 1868, when Japan became organized as a modern state, the government formally recognized the legal rights of soke (a.k.a. iemoto) families to control the copyright of all musical scores, theatrical plays, textbooks, and artistic works produced by members of their guilds (Nishiyama 1982b, 16). In this way, the terms soke and iemoto acquired legal definitions as designations for the modern representatives of the limited number of families who could provide historical documentation that they had controlled these kinds of commercial guilds during the Tokugawa period. To maintain their copyrights, the leaders of these families had to register with the government as legal entities. At the same time that they acquired copyrights, they lost their previous ability to restrict the teaching or performance of their arts by people from outside their guild. They became just one school or performance group among many. While they can restrict unauthorized use of their own name and their own historical resources, they have no legal power to inhibit competition. Today, as long as there is no copyright infringement, anyone can write new instructional guides to tea ceremony or any other traditional art. Anyone is free to devise new methods for practicing them.

Use of the term soke (or iemoto) in martial contexts is even more complex. Before 1868, soke families that were organized into the kinds of commercial guilds described above never controlled instruction in martial arts. This is the reason so many different lineages (ryuha) of martial arts existed in premodern Japan. The contrast between teaching organizations devoted to peaceful arts (such as tea ceremony, flower arranging, and so forth) and those concerned with martial arts could not be more stark. Instruction in any of the peaceful arts was available only from a small number of familial lineages, each one of which organized itself into a commercial guild with a network of affiliated branch instructors available throughout the land. On the other hand, there existed hundreds of different martial art lineages, the vast majority of which were confined to a single location.6 While many martial lineages were consanguineous (i.e., handed down from father to son), many others were not.

Nishiyama (1982b, 273-278) identifies several reasons why martial art lineages never developed into iemoto (a.k.a. soke) systems. Prior to the establishment of the Tokugawa peace, rapid acquisition of military prowess constituted the sine qua non of any system of martial instruction. An instructor who withheld instruction in the most advanced techniques as a family secret, as was the norm among soke who taught peaceful arts, could not have attracted students. For this reason, during the sixteenth century, military students usually attained full initiation rather quickly, after which they were free to teach all that they had learned to their own students. If anyone issued diplomas, they did so on their own authority, without having to pay license fees to any larger organization. After the Tokugawa regime imposed peace on the land, both older and new schools of martial instruction became more structured, more secretive, and developed more complex and time-consuming curriculums. Students who received diplomas no longer necessarily acquired independent rights to issue diplomas themselves.7 The ruling authorities also actively prevented any warrior groups or martial schools from developing organizational bonds across domain boundaries.8 Moreover, the rulers of each individual domain preferred to patronize only their own local martial systems, which could be kept under their own local control. Finally, in an age of peace it became practically impossible for any one martial lineage or group of lineages to demonstrate decisively their superiority over their rivals. Innovative teachers could (and did) devise new methods of martial training and establish new schools without having to risk lives to demonstrate their combat effectiveness.

Osano Jun (187-192) argues that the first martial art in Japan to adopt a true soke system was the Kodokan School of judo. Osano could be right. The Kodokan set the standards not just for members within one training hall in one location, but for all participants in judo throughout the nation. The Kodokan defined the art; it controlled licensing and instruction; and it established branch schools with instructors who maintained permanent affiliation with the headquarters. If the Kodokan does not recognize something as being "judo," then it is not judo. Therefore, there is no such thing as a new style of judo. All of these elements constitute essential characteristics of traditional soke organizations in Tokugawa-period Japan. In actual practice, however, no one ever refers to the Kodokan, or its current head, as the soke of judo.9 The term seems out of place with judo's emphasis on modernity. Having analyzing the term soke in this way, Osano also criticizes the present-day use of the soke label by some Japanese teachers who represent traditional martial art lineages (i.e., koryu). Osano asserts that such usage not only is incorrect but also reveals an ignorance of traditional Japanese culture.

Osano's strict historical understanding is probably too strict. He overlooks the legal and social changes in the status of soke that occurred after 1868. After Japan began to modernize, social critics denounced soke organizations as a disagreeable legacy of a feudal system based on hereditary privilege, which stifled innovation and restricted knowledge for the financial benefit of undeserving family heads who no longer possessed the skills of their ancestors (Nishiyama 1982c, 263-273). Soke organizations saw their networks of branch instructors wither as interest in traditional arts declined and former students broke away to found rival schools.10 Soon many traditional soke disappeared, especially in arts based on direct competition among participants such as Japanese chess (shogi) and in less well-known forms of dance and song. As more and more of these intangible cultural legacies disappeared, modern Japanese gradually developed a new appreciation for the soke families who had managed to preserve their own family traditions and teach them to new generations. Without the determination and persistence of the heirs of these families, direct knowledge of many traditional Japanese arts would have been lost. 

Today one could argue that the historical differences between the heirs of Tokugawa-period family lineages which operated as commercial guilds (with the natori system) and the heirs of localized teaching lineages such as those associated with martial traditions are less significant than their modern similarities. In both cases the current successors remain the only legitimate sources for traditional forms of instruction in the arts of that lineage. In both cases the current successors have assumed responsibility for preserving the historical texts, special tools, unique skills, and specific lore that have been handed down within their own particular lineage. In both cases the current successors distinguish their traditional teachings from newly founded rivals by pointing out how their teachings remain faithful to the goals and forms taught by previous generations. Based on these similarities, many modern writers use the terms iemoto or soke as designations for the legitimate heir to any established main lineage. Used in reference to present-day representatives of traditional martial art lineages, therefore, the soke label properly denotes their roles as successors to and preservers of a particular historical and cultural legacy. It should not be interpreted as implying identification with a commercial network (as criticized by Osano) nor as being equivalent to "grandmaster" or "founder" (as mistakenly assumed by casual observers), and might best be translated simply as "head" or "headmaster."

Consider, for example, the case of Kashima-Shinryu (see Friday, Legacies of the Sword). In his books and articles, Seki Humitake, the current head of and nineteenth-generation successor to the Kashima- Shinryu lineage, uses the label soke as a designation for the Kunii family. He uses this term as a way of honoring the role the Kunii family played in preserving Kashima-Shinryu traditions. Down to the time of Seki's teacher, Kunii Zen'ya (1894-1966), Kashima-Shinryu forms of martial lore had been passed down consanguineously within the Kunii family from father to son from one generation to the next. Seki's modern use of the label soke simply acknowledges that legacy.11 In the writings of Kunii Zen'ya and in the traditional scrolls preserved within the Kunii family, however, the word soke cannot be found. Kunii Zen'ya never referred to himself or to his family as the soke of Kashima-Shinryu. He simply signed his name. In writing out copies of his family's old scrolls (these copies would be handed out as diplomas), though, he usually would add the words "Kunii-ke soden" before the title of each scroll. For example, if he copied an old scroll titled "Kenjutsu mokuroku" he would give it the title "Kunii-ke soden kenjutsu mokuroku." In this example, the original title simply means "fencing curriculum" while the longer version means "the fencing curriculum transmitted within the Kunii family." Used to represent this sense of "transmitted within a family," the term soke seems perfectly reasonable. It merely implies that the lore associated with this curriculum was taught exclusively within the Kunii familial lineage.

In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist. One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke. At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize.

Pretty informative for just 3,416 words.


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## arnisador (Feb 2, 2003)

I found it quite interesting when I learned that soke referred to non-martial traditions as well. From hearing how it's used in the States you'd think it meant any founder or possibly and head of a martial arts system.


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## yilisifu (Feb 2, 2003)

My Lord!  THAT was really informative!  Thank you.

.......You've been immersing yourself in Japanese culture again, haven't you?


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## Cthulhu (Feb 2, 2003)

I've always taken the term _soke_ to be equivalent to 'inheritor'.  I remember reading somewhere that the current soke of the Katori Shinto Ryu (may not be quite so current...old source) wasn't active in the system.  The head instructor was a man by the name of Otsuka(sp?), but he wasn't the soke.

Cthulhu


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## Big Game (Feb 2, 2003)

Thanks for all your responses.  Since I am new to this style and it is the only one available in my area, please help me to understand if this is in fact a real style.  I have copied the history of the style to give some background.  


            Soke began training in May of 1962, studying Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu Karate while in the U.S. Air Force. While stationed in Japan he studied mostly under a Japanese Air Force (JSDAF) NCO named Kayo-San and with fellow American student Richard P. Bailargeon. He also had opportunity to study with Soke Kuniba. Though many American servicemen studied karate in Japan at this time, few were able to take advantage of this opportunity as much as Soke Riedner. Before returning to the U.S., he was able to learn most of the kata of the Motobu-Ha system as well as some Kobudo from Soke Kuniba.



            In January 1965 Soke Riedner received his 1st Dan from Kuniba becoming the second American to do so. After his tour in the Orient, Soke began attending college and to also study Hakko Ryu Ju-Jitsu under Shihan James A. Benko. He still continued his pursuit of Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu and earned his 2nd Dan in that style while also earning his 4th Dan in Hakko Ryu Ju-Jitsu in January 1969.



            In 1969 Soke began to work with Dr. R.J. Brown. Under Dr. Brown Soke received training in the Chinese branch of Kenpo and received his 3rd Dan in 1975 and 4th Dan in Aka Ryu Shakai Kenpo in 1978. Also during this period while living in South Carolina, Soke was able to make trips to Charleston, S.C. to train under Harold Martin. Martin was Soke-Dai of the Kamishin Ryu system. Kamishin Ryu was founded by Soke Albert C. Church and is the combination of Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu, Hakko Ryu Ju-Jitsu and an Art he inherited from Kooh C. Kim called Shaolinji Tetseken Ryu Kempo. It was Soke Church who awarded Dr. Riedner a 5th Dan in Kamishin Ryu in 1978 and recognized him as Shodai-Soke of Shiho Karano Ryu on March 13, 1978. Soke Riedner has continued to study both hard and soft fist arts receiving his black belts in both American Goju and Isshin Ryu.



            In June of 1980 Soke Church passed away, leaving Dr. Riedner the full sokeship of Shiho Karano Ryu. This position was further confirmed in 1988 when Sigong Andrew P. Tamper issued a letter of recognition to Soke Riedner and the Shiho Karano system. Sigong Tamper is the inheritor of the Chinese Yee Chong system.



            Besides pursuing martial arts studies, Soke Riedner has achieved much in his academic career. Earning his B.A. and M.A. from Bob Jones University, another M.A. from Columbia Bible College, and finally his M.Div., Ph.D. and L.H.D. from Great Plains Baptist College. Armed with this education Dr. Riedner was awarded an appointment as a CAP/USAF Chaplain at the rank of Major. He is also a retired Army Reserve NCO. This background of hard and soft fist arts, education and military service has prepared Soke Riedner to lead an organization with the scope and emphasis of the CBBA/SKKI.









            Perhaps the most influential person in the history of Shiho Karano Ryu is Soke Siyogo Kuniba. Though he was not the instructor that Soke Riedner may have spent the most time with, his style, his students, and his organization provided much of what has become the CBBA/SKKI.



            Born in 1934 to a samurai family, his father Kosei Kuniba was a noted martial artist. Kunibas father began his training under karate legend Choki Motobu at age 14. Ten years later he moved to Tokyo, Japan. At that time he started using the Japanese pronunciation of the family name, Kuniba, for his son. In 1940 they moved again, this time Osaka where his father established the Seishin-Kai Dojo. Unlike most karate schools of this period Soke Kuniba had an open door policy at his school. Not only did many of the great martial arts teachers of that day find a welcome to teach there but he also sent Siyogo Kuniba to other schools to learn what he could. Karate was not the only art that Kuniba was exposed to as he also studied Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Kendo, and Iaido.





            In 1958 Kosei Kuniba died and left the family system of Motobu-Ha to his son Siyogo, but at only 24 years of age it was required that Teuro Hayashi act as president of the Seishin Kai. This occurred only four years before Soke Riedner began training in Motobu Ha Shito Ryu. Until Kuniba began his relationship with Hayashi, he had studied mostly from the Shuri line of karate. Hayashi on the other hand had done extensive training in Goju and Fukien White Crane. When Dr. Riedner trained under Kuniba he learned almost exclusively Shorin Ryu (Shito Ryu) kata. Later Kuniba added much of the Goju and White Crane forms to his style, changing the name to Kuniba Ha Shito Ryu. Hayashi also became Soke of his own style, called Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu.



            Soke Kuniba was the sponsor of Albert C. Church to receive recognition as Soke of Kamishin Ryu and Inheritor of the Shaolinji Tetseken Kempo system, and appointed Church as an instructor of the Seishin Ryu Ju-Jitsu, Seishin Mugei Ryu Iaido and Shito Ryu Karate. These events took place January 1, 1970, only eight years after Dr. Riedner had trained in Japan. About this time Soke Kuniba was becoming more involved with his American students eventually moving to Virginia. He continued to research and develop his martial arts system. In 1991 he was diagnosed with stomach cancer. Soke Kuniba died from this disease the next year leaving behind and unparalleled legacy.









            Albert C. Church (1930-1980) was a true pioneer in American martial arts, beginning his training in 1939 in Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu. He studied under Sagaru Yokohoto for three years. In  1949 he renewed his involvement as a marine at Camp Pendelton. While serving in the military Church had an opportunity to study in the Orient. From 1950 to 1952 he was a student of Kim C. Kooh(?) who taught his family art of Shaolinji Testsu Kempo. Later he studied Kodokan Judo.



            After returning to the U.S., he taught at various schools. Then in 1967 he was called back to Japan by Kim C. Kooh(?) who passed on his family art to Church. It was also during this period that he began training under Siyogo Kuniba. Kuniba taught Church Seishin Ryu Judo and Ju-Jitsu, Mugei Ryu Iaido and Motobu Ha Shito Ryu Karate with Teuro Hayashi. It was Kuniba who sponsored Church as a Soke with the Zen Nippon Soke Kai. While in Japan Soke Church renewed his training in Hakko Ryu under the systems founder Ryuho Okuyama.



            In 1969 Soke Church returned to the states and in 1970 he unified all of his previous training under the banner of Kamishin Ryu. In Japan many people earned the title of Soke and have started systems without such recognition; however, it has always been the test of time that has been the final judge as to the true value of a style. Kamishin Ryu has certainly proven itself to be a true martial art in every sense of the word. Though Soke Church passed away only eleven years after founding his style, his impact on the martial arts community continues to be felt.

            Kamishin Ryu is not merely a karate style or even merely a mixture of Karate and Ju-Jitsu. Rather it is a traditional Ryu in the sense that it is comprised of several Ryu all based on the governing principles of the Ryu. Originally Dr. Church called his association Nippon Kobudo Kamishin Ryu, which means Japanese Ancient Martial Ways Divine Heart Style. This Ryu contained a Karate element as well as Ju-Jitsu, weapons and the Samurai sword. It was Soke Church who first conferred the title of Soke on Dr. Riedner and his history and organizational structure played a major role in shaping Shiho Karano Ryu. It is also significant that Soke Church was a Shihan in most of the individual elements that went into the formation of Shiho Karano Ryu. Thus, his sponsorship must be considered as being of the highest order. If the Shiho Karano Ryu had been deficient in any way, no one would have recognized it more readily than Soke Church.







            Richard Bailargeon is important to Shiho Karano Ryu for two reasons, First, he was Soke Riedners senior in Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu Karate and secondly because he provided many contacts with other martial artists after they returned to the United States. In Japan Shihan Bailargeon preceded Soke Riedner in studying with Soke Kuniba and his assistant instructor Kay San. Though Kayo San was Dr. Riedners Sensei in Japan, Shihan Bailargeon had entered Kay Sans club first and had earned his 2nd Dan and returned to the states while Dr. Riedner was still a brown belt. Shihan Bailargeon acted as a mentor for Dr. Riedner as he began his training. 



            When Shihan Bailargeon returned to America in 1964, he was the Seishin Kai (Soke Kunibas organization) senior American Black Belt. Acting as Kunibas American representative, he started the American Branch of the Seishin Kai Karate Union and formed an alliance with Shihan James A. Benko of Hakko Ryu Ju-Jitsu under the canopy of the HMAF- Hakko Ryu Martial Arts Federation, US Branch in 1965. This partnership also brought both Dr. Riedner and Shihan Bailargeon into contact with Soke Albert C. Church, who was also an HMAF member.



            Though Shihan Bailargeon eventually went his own way and formed his national Union of Karate and Ju-Jitsu, his influence in the early years of both the development of Shiho Karano Ryu and the Sieshin Kai organization cannot be understated. The Seishin Kai in America was later led by Soke Church and then by Soke Kuniba himself. It is still a strong force in the American Martial Arts community.


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## arnisador (Feb 2, 2003)

To be honest, the text above raises many issues and concerns.

However, if you're happy with the instruction, keep going--but visit a few other schools/seminars so you have a better basis for comparison.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I've always taken the term soke to be equivalent to 'inheritor'.  I remember reading somewhere that the current soke of the Katori Shinto Ryu (may not be quite so current...old source) wasn't active in the system.  The head instructor was a man by the name of Otsuka(sp?), but he wasn't the soke.
> 
> Cthulhu *




That's correct.

In the Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu the Soke may or may not train in the system.

The current head instructor is Mr. Otake who is one of the, it not the best swordsman I have ever seen.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *My Lord!  THAT was really informative!  Thank you.
> 
> .......You've been immersing yourself in Japanese culture again, haven't you? *




Just tryin' to edjubakate myself


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## chufeng (Feb 2, 2003)

I'm not trying to start a war, or anything like it, but there is a remarkable resemblance between Big Game's avatar and a swastika...

Is there some significance to the direction of the "legs" on a swastika...and where did it originate? 

Big Game...I'm not attacking you or your organization...
The swastika predates Naziism by centuries and can be found in many ancient texts...I just thought it an interesting point of discussion...

Now, I'll just sit back and wait for the heat...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Angus (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I'm not trying to start a war, or anything like it, but there is a remarkable resemblance between Big Game's avatar and a swastika...
> 
> Is there some significance to the direction of the "legs" on a swastika...and where did it originate?
> ...



Yes, but there is a big difference between the ancient swastika and the nazi swastika. The ancient swastika had 4 legs pointing counter clockwise (like big game's symbol), and was meant to mean peace/harmony; the nazi's derived their swastika from the same idea, however they wanted the antithesis, hence reversing the legs to point clockwise and reversing the meaning to mean war/hate.

If it's pointing counter clockwise, they probably aren't nazi's.


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## Big Game (Feb 2, 2003)

First off I am not offended, when I first saw the logo I thought it resembled a swastika as well.  It is not and we are not nazi's.  Here is an explanation of our logo:

The LOGO

Another important aspect of Shiho Karano can be seen in the logo. Shiho Karano can also mean "Circle Of Readiness" or "4 Way Defense". The logo of Shiho Karano expresses this concept very well.

The symbol is encompassed by a circle, reflecting continuous motion and flow.
In the circle are 4 arrows, each giving the impression of motion.

The arrows are moving to the left, expressing an openness to knowledge.

In our system we don't recognize our style as having all the answers, or the best techniques.  We are open to other styles techniques, and as we get up in rank, we are encouraged to learn about why other styles do things.  In other words if we see something we like, we can incoporate it.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

The swastika is a perversion of the "manji" used in Budhism.
(see gif below)

One faces to the left, the other to the right.




- MANJI -


The origin of the "manji" symbol
The manji is a common Buddhist symbol, in Japan they are used on maps to mark the locations of Buddhist temples, and you can commonly find them in Buddhist temples or on Buddhist artworks. In Asia the Buddhist connotation is, of course, much more prominent than the Nazi one. The symbol originally comes from ancient India and though it does have a common origin with the Swastika, they have completely different use and meaning. 

The reason why Shorinji Kempo uses the manji Shorinji
Kempo uses this manji as its symbol, in Japan practitioners wear it on their "dougi" and one is displayed in training halls at the "front" of the hall. The manji is used because of its Buddhist connotations, and the fact that Shorinji Kempo seeks to follow in the tradition of the original Shaolin Temple, where the Indian priest Bodhidharma taught the Chinese monks to develop both their physical and spiritual sides. Because of its connotations in the West, a different mark is worn on the uniform of practicioners in most countries outside of Japan. 

The meaning of the "manji"
In Buddhism the manji signifies the source of life, the ever-changing universe. According to Buddhism, all things in the universe are, like Heaven and Earth or Yin and Yang, at the same time opposing and yet balanced elements. The vertical line in the manji connects Heaven and Earth, the horizontal line connects Yin and Yang. This signifies that when these join, forming a "+", a power arises which gives birth to all things. This means that all things result from the interaction of these forces, much in the same way that Physics says that all actions and substance results from the interaction of particles and forces, such as gravity, etc. (note: I know virtually nothing of current physics and so this may not be an accurate statement). As the universe is in continual change, the trailing lines are added to the manji to indicate that it is in perpetual swirling motion, and the manji is complete as a symbol of the universe and its every-changing nature. In Buddhism they say "the only certainty is change".


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

Swastika..........


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

Maybe we should start a new thread called "Dojo patches and what they mean....."


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## Cthulhu (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Just tryin' to edjubakate myself *



Good lord...when I first read this, I read another 'k' where the 't' is.

Whew!  

Cthulhu


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Good lord...when I first read this, I read another 'k' where the 't' is.
> *



Sorry about my spellin'......must be my cajun come through.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Sorry about my spellin'......must be my cajun come through. *



It wasn't your spelling...it was what I _thought_ you spelled 

Cthulhu


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## JAMJTX (Feb 17, 2005)

I just found this now, as I am new to this board.
Your history of Motobuha Shito Ryu is some-what accurate.
It is also true that Mr. Riedener was the 2nd American to receive a Shodan from Soke Kuniba.  I also believe that the rest of your history on the training of Mr. Riedner is accurate.  
Shihan Baillargeon was the senior American in the Seishinkai and acted as U.S. Director. In 1974 he left to form the National Karate and Jiu Jitsu Union. And the association with HMAF is accurate, although this was done without Kuniba's approval or knowledge.
The only real problem is the dubious history of Albert Church. The ridiculous story about inheriting a Chinese art from a Korean and being recognized as a Japanese Soke is far from the truth.  This so called "Kuniba Scroll" recognizing Church as Soke does not exist and Kuniba always denied giving such a scroll.

Also, Church never headed the Seishin Kai.  Once he returned from Japan, with a Shihan certification from Kuniba, he broke off contact with Kuniba and his Kamishin Ryu was formed shortly after.  Darrell Craig was appointed U.S. Director of Seishin Kai and served from 1974-1980.

I do believe that Mr. Riedener had access to some some of the best instructors in the country and perhaps the world at that time.  There was a lot happening in the Carolinas with the HMAF and Seishin Kai teachers working together.  Also, this was the cradle of Kuniba's "Goshin Budo" (now Kuniba Ryu Goshindo).  Riedner was there in the midst of it all. (I even have some pages of old newsletters with a photo of him from 1969).  I think if he is atleast staying true to the technical training he received from Kuniba and Baillargeon then you can get excellent training from him.


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## VSanhodo (Mar 19, 2005)

Hi Folks

I would like to add my cents worth if I may. Back in the early 90s or so I had the opportunity to meet Mr. Reidner, I can say he is truly a very nice guy. during the 70's I trained Renshei John Miller, Shihan Earl Marvin and others under Soke Kuniba, I was there when Soke Kuniba was developing his 5 kata for what later became known as Sogo Goshindo. I also had the privledge to train with Mr Chruch, Mr Church was an incredible man. My first instructor was Shizyura Tanaka Sensei, now all of this and .50 cents will buy you a cup of coffee.
Allow me to get back to my point. When I met Mr Reidner in Columbia SC he wanted to hold a seminar at my school, which I allowed, Further I invited him to participate in a larger event I was hosting at the time, which he gracioulsy consensted to do. Mr. Reidner gave me a small certificate which said in short that my dojo was affliated with his Shiho Karano Ryu system. 
I asked him to mail me a list of his credientals which I must say he did. His higest legit rank is a Yondan (4th Dan) I know, Soke Van Camp who also got his Sokeship under the same group / people as Dr. Reidner. Ive seen both perform and while each are very nice gentleman, They do not have the knowledge, skill or rank to hold the title of Soke. Ive sat on a testing board with Soke Van Camp and have been an Uke for Soke Reidner. I know both of these guys real well. i know I keep repeating myself and again I mean no offense. Sadly in these times the Term of Soke has lost its meaning and has become an umbrella for every Tom, Dick and Harry that thinks they are worthy of starting thier own systems. 
There are numerous Soke groups out there these days and most by far are merely a net work of good ole boys who self promote. The only requirement for most of these groups is that you pay the fee and know the right ppl to get in. Very few actually require and legit credentials.
The arts have become so watered down and so bastardized. In my opinion there are only a handful of Martial Artist out there who are even close to being worthy of the title of Mastrer, Grand Master, Menjin, Soke etc. 
There are way toooooo many BS artist out there who hide under false credientials and made up groups.

One of the finest instrucotors and groups Ive ever had the opportunity to be associated with is that of Mr. Oyata. His skill and knowledge are truly a rare find these days. His Orginazation is well run and goverened and the vast majority of the ppl affliated with his group are honestly some of the finest not only Martial Artist to be found anywhere but also some of the finest ppl in general.
Lets put back the honesty, Integerity and overall values which the arts are designed to instill in us all.

FYI
The latin root word for Eduacate is Educo which means to draw from within.


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## RRouuselot (Mar 20, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Hi Folks
> 
> One of the finest instrucotors and groups Ive ever had the opportunity to be associated with is that of Mr. Oyata. His skill and knowledge are truly a rare find these days. His Orginazation is well run and goverened and the vast majority of the ppl affliated with his group are honestly some of the finest not only Martial Artist to be found anywhere but also some of the finest ppl in general.


 Which of Mr. Oyata's students you have met?


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## VSanhodo (Mar 20, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Which of Mr. Oyata's students you have met?


I recently moved to Naples Florida from Columbia South Carolina. While living in Columbia I had the fortune of training with Koyshi Jim Logue and Renshi Gary Shull. Of course I attended as many of Taika's seminars as I possibly could and met numerous students of his.


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## RRouuselot (Mar 20, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> I recently moved to Naples Florida from Columbia South Carolina. While living in Columbia I had the fortune of training with Koyshi Jim Logue and Renshi Gary Shull. Of course I attended as many of Taika's seminars as I possibly could and met numerous students of his.


 Mr. Logue and Mr. Shull are two very knowledgeable martial artists not to mention really nice guys. Mr. Logue started with Mr. Oyata back in 1963 while he was in Okinawa.


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## kamishinkan (Mar 29, 2005)

I am new to this forum, but would like to comment on some of the previous statements regarding Albert Church. Some of the false statements made in this forum concerning Church sensei's background has been addressed at e-budo forum by Guy Power, sensei. I have on my website certification given to Church sensei by Kuniba sensei and also from Hayashi sensei. Along with this certification is a copy of the scroll written by Kuniba sensei naming Church sensei as "Soke" of his art of Nippon Kobudo Kamishin Ryu. This scroll (which was previously said to "not exist") was read and translated by Power sensei. I would also like to mention that Power sensei was allowed to see the other scroll of succesion given to Church sensei by the past head family of this art (Power sensei at that time could not read the kanji). One statment made was that it was not until Church sensei came to America that he "broke away" and formed Kamishin Ryu, well according to this scroll that is not correct. Kamishin Ryu was recognized in Japan on 1 Nov 1969 by the Seishinkai. I hope this does not turn out to be a big battle, I just would like to clear up any incorrect statments concerning Church sensei's background. Another statement made in another thread called into question Church sensei's rank. Again the rank and title certifications are listed on my site and any higher rank acknowledged by Church sensei would have been concerning his own art (not considering any "cross ranks" which seemed to be the "norm" in those days). Also I would like to show that on this site is a Kanban written by Kuniba sensei naming Church sensei as Kanagawa prefectual leader of the Seishinkai.  All of these scrolls/certificates can be viewed at 
www.geocities.com/aiki_kempo/documents.html
If you have any trouble with the link just go to www.kamishinryu.net and follow the links to the lineage documentation.
I hope this clears up any mis-understandings. Although I have a feeling this will not be the end of the debate.


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## JAMJTX (Dec 17, 2005)

Just because something is displayed on the internet does not mean it is an authentic document.
Not only did Kuniba Soke not give Church a "Soke Scroll", he could not.
The Seishinkai was an organization founded to promote Motobuha Shito Ryu Karatedo.  Later Shogo Kuniba added his Goshindo, Iaido and Kobudo.  But it was never a "Sokeship" board or registry.  There are procedures and processes in place for granting recognition to new arts in Japan and for verifying credentials of thise making claims to lineage.
No Japanese organization would verify the inheritance of an  Chinese art left by a Korean to an American then give it a Japanese name and make him a Soke.  It's dumb story.  It would make a nice movie.  But in reality, it's dumb.
You may have a piece of paper that church claimed came from Kunba and you may have photos of church and Kuniba together.  But none of that proves that the piece of paper you have came from Kuniba.  Kuniba said he never gave him such a scroll, and the family maintains that today.
After church left Japan he never had any further contact with Kuniba.  What he did do was make a nice living selling Soke certificates to others like Rod Sachronski.


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## JAMJTX (Dec 17, 2005)

I came back to edit my last post.  It was too late.

First: I did not want to call the poster dumb.  He just bought into a dumb story.

Second:
The "Soke Certificate" was never fully translated.  It seems that the use of "kanji" was so poor that most of the document can not be translated.  
Had Kuniba written this, it would be translateable.
Starting from right to left, you can see the red lines drawn around the translated parts.  There is a lot of writing in between, what does it say?  How come no one knows?

Also, Guy Power did not guarantee that Kuniba Soke wrote this.  Atleast to my knowledge.  He just said he translated these parts.  There's a big difference between translating a few lines on a document that someone hands you and staking your reputation on the autehticity of the signitures and seals.

Speaking of which, the selection does not show a signature or a seal that would go towards verifying that this came from Kuniba.  Please provide more documentation to support this claim.  Or have someone reputable and knowldegabel come here to say that they examined the original document, compared signatures and seals to other original documents and can say without a doubt that Kuniba created this scroll.  I doubt that Power Sensei has done that or even would want to try and stake his reputation on that.

In the mean time all you have is a mostly untranslated copy of a copy of document that someone says someone else got but no one has any more.
You have this against Kuniba's statement that he did not write this document.
See here for a repsponse from Soke Kozo Kuniba, which essentially came from Soke Shogo Kuniba.
www.jimmccoy.com/sokedoc.htm


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## kamishinkan (Jan 8, 2006)

As I thought the debate would not end.....

Only a couple of points I would like to mention,
First I agree that the translation of the scroll is limited but contrary to that last post, the kanji being poor was never the reason for the lack of translation. The problem was the poor quality of the copy (according to Power sensei), not the kanji.
I also recognize the article that was written by Kuniba sensei's son BUT I have in my possesion rank certificates written by Kuniba sensei to a senior student of Church sensei dated 1980 (after Church sensei's death). Also I have in my possesion a good copy of a letter signed by Kuniba (possibly actually written by James Hernandez) recognizing Catherine Church as Kaicho of her Kamishinkai organization formed after Church sensei's death (document also written after Church sensei's death). It sure seems like a lot to give to an organization that supposedly "forged" scrolls and certificates in your name. Also I guess the correct channels to recognize someone as Kaicho of a martial organization was by-passed again in 1980 with Mrs. Church.
Also it is always overlooked that Kuniba sensei wrote a Kanban for Church sensei naming him as Kanagawa prefectual leader of the Seishinkai (I have a photo of kuniba sensei standing next to the Kanban as well as a pic of Church sensei next to it.
There always seems to be someone out there swearing it couldn't be but there is a lot more documentation (although some of it hard to read due to bad copies) that points to the truth of this rather than substantial proof against it. 
One last point, I am good friends with a group of guys that trained with Kuniba in the 80's in Kuniba's Goshin Budo. Most of them also were very connected with Church sensei and according to all of them Kuniba sensei spoke very highly of Church sensei and the certificates and letter of recognition to Catherine Church supports this.
If it is dumb to believe all of this and the testimonies of people who trained with Kuniba sensei from the Church camp I guess I am guilty.


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## johnston (Feb 9, 2006)

Hello,
   Much of this history is garbled up, which is not surprising given the intense politics and the lengthof time since its founding.  I probably will not address the validity issue of the style and Church, largely since it breeds conflict.  
   I might clear up some mis-stated facts though.  Baillargeon was the first non-Japanese to train at Seishin-Kan (the name of the dojo).  According to Baillargeon himself, and also others who were stationed with him in the Osaka area, Baillargeon was an avid marathon runner, and a Master Sergeant in charge of the local workers who were employed on the base.
   One day while running up in the hills around Osaka he encountered a very strange building, with loud echoing shouts coming from within.  He paused and went up to the door.  A polite Japanese gentleman was there to receive him.  When he asked to see what went on inside he was politely refused, and no argument effected his entry.  
   He returned again the following day, and after announcing his position at the base again asked for admission and was refused.  He then cut off entry of indigenous personnel to the base for a couple of days; after returning a thord time and explaining this, he was interviewed by one of the instructors.  At length it was agreed that he could participate in one class; if he made it through that class then they might agree to allow him to remain as a student.  
   A Gi was provided for him, he dressed out, and class began.  A senior showed him front punch and front stance briefly.  Then it began.  Across the room they stepped, the entire class, doing basic front punch in front stance.  This went on for 20 minutes and many students bowed out and sat down in the adjascent area.  With each trip up and down the dojo a few more sat out.  After 45 minutes there were 5 left, Baillargeon, the senior instructor and 3 black belts.    After a few more passes it was just Baillargeon, the senior and one black belt.  Then the black belt sat out.  After one more pass the instructor stopped them, and later it became evident that it was done because they would have been very embarassed if Baillargeon had out lasted their senior.  

  Baillargeon was then stationed at Peshawar, Pakistan along with his good friend Robert Zepecki.  The two of them learned Pakistani Stick fighting from a man known to the Americans only as Master John (his name was complex).  I have a copy of a picture of Master John standing with Baillargeon and Zepecki and a pile of the unusual weapons that they had mastered.

  It was then that Baillargeon returned to the states.  Initially he was the USA representative of Seishin-Kai Karate Union; we all wore the red patch of that organization for years.  Zepecki of course had a patch that had block embroidery.  

  A story was told to me about Church, not very flattering, and it is the only time anyone ever mentioned his name to me.  Again, going down that path tends to breed conflict.   Suffice it to say that Baillargeon knew him and had a short meeting with him a couple of times.  There is no evidence Church trained with Kuniba and only his own word substantiated his trip to Japan.  That is probably all I should say.

-Chris J.


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## johnston (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi,
  Unfortunately the history is a bit inaccurate, but probably that is to be expected.

-Chris J.


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## johnston (Feb 10, 2006)

Hi,
   I have info on Church, Sacrenoski (SP?) and others in the Juko-Kai association claiming rank from Church.  It is contraversial and even to some, inflamatory.  But the truth can do that sometimes.  Better be a private E-mail, though.

-Chris J.


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## johnston (Feb 10, 2006)

A short story, completely true, might illuminate some of the things being mentioned here.

A couple of years ago I got an interesting E-mail from a man in sweeden (I believe it was Sweden...) named Morten Steen, he had an interesting document to share with a bunch of us on the mailing group.  It seems an American who had trained with Rodney Sacrenoski (SP?) was attempting to certify himself as Yondan by bringing a copy of his certification.  The certificate looked unusual, with the usual marks that might lead one to suspect a forgery, so a Japanese national was asked to please translate the kanji.  

The return E-mail and corrected certificate are most humerous.  Many mistakes on usage of characters, several mis penned hiragana, and one GIANT mistake that was just too much.  It seems the 'author' had used a kanji for the SEI in SEI-DO KAN out of a book and had picked the wrong character to represent that sound.  The meaning shoulod have been "Pure House Way", but the writer had used the kanji for SEX instead of PURE.  The translation became "Sex-House Way Karate", and the only possible interpretation for this was "Whore-House Karate".    ROTFLMAO!

The very day I got this bitmap image (I still have it!) I immediately lookes at the scanned certificates on Sacrenoski's web site, and at as many of his student's web sites as possible; there were (are) so many claiming to be some Soke of some new art but with ancient roots of some sort.  ALL of the certificates that I could find depicted that had come from Sacrenoski had this same gross error!  A year later the same search found not one such mistake, yet all persons had depicted copies of their certificates.  They had been re-created without these mistakes over the past year and were now being mis-represented as original certificates with bogus dates.

These people, who shall remain nameless, might have decent martial skills, or they might not.  I simply do not know.  But, if you certify through them, remember this post and reflect on the validity of the rank.  And try not to get any on you.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 14, 2006)

Suffice it to say that the connection between Mr. Church and Mr. Sacronowski has been extremely overstated. Mr. Church had dealings with Mr. Sacronowski in the early 70's but later broke all ties with him. This disconnection was re-stated by Mr. Sacronowski in a letter he wrote that I have a copy of. Any later connections claimed by Mr. Sacronowski or anyone tied to him to Mr. Church would not only go against the facts as witnessed by the students of Mr. Church at that time, but Mr. Sacronowski's own words.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 14, 2006)

Actually, there seems to be a stronger Church/Sacronowski connection than a Church/Kuniba connection.

Church seems to be the great-grandaddy of the modern day Sokeship associations.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 14, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> Actually, there seems to be a stronger Church/Sacronowski connection than a Church/Kuniba connection.
> 
> Church seems to be the great-grandaddy of the modern day Sokeship associations.


 
Also, as you stated the ties between Church/Sacronowski going against the word of students who were there. Yet, you refuse to accept the word of the students - including the Kuniba family - who were there and say Church did not get a scroll from Kuniba making him a Soke.

The story of the stupid Kanji being used on the certificates is typical of other Church fakes - like the book that he supposedly co-wrote with Baillargeon and Kuniba.  The book had photos of both Baillargeon and Kuniba - but none of him with either of the 2 in the same photo.  Also, there were wrong kanji and others that were upside down and backwards.
I have been told that other certificates that Church had and claimed came from Kuniba also had upside down and backward Kanji.

Church may have had decent basic martial skills, but he was a scheister at best.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 15, 2006)

This is getting interesting.....

I will try this point by point , but I bet it won't end here.

1. Church seems to be the great-grandaddy of the modern day Sokeship associations.
*It is true that Mr. Church was trying to put together some sort of governing body to oversee American martial artist BUT the onslought of the modern Sokeship board FAR post-dates Mr. Church's life. This nonsense (Sokeship boards) seems to be a rediculous fabrication far removed from any thought Church sensei may have had. *

2. Refusal to believe the students of Kuniba that claim Church sensei did not get a "Soke" scroll from Kuniba sensei.
*I have not heard from any of Kuniba's students (who were there in Osaka in 1967-69) that he did not. This has only came from Kuniba's son. Since that statement a copy of the scroll has turned up and has been read by Power sensei. The kanji seems to be in the handwriting of Mr. Kuniba, in comparison to certificates that we have given by Mr. Kuniba, personally. AND the witness of personal students of Mr. Kuniba in the 80's training in Kuniba sensei's Goshindo that claim Mr. Kuniba spoke highly of Mr. Church. AND students of Church sensei that Mr. Kuniba cross ranked to Dan ranks in Motobu Ha Shito Ryu right after Church sensei's death. AND a sponsorship letter given to Mr. Church's wife in 1980 backing her as Kaicho of her own version of Church sensei's Kamishin Ryu. I could keep going but it sure seems like a lot to give to the martial "family" of a guy who forged a scroll and lied about sponsorship.*

3. The book.....
*I have a copy of the book written and there are a few pictures in the book with Church sensei and Kuniba sensei demonstrating kicks etc. together???? Also I have a pic of Kuniba sensei **standing next to a beautiful Kanban written by Kuniba sensei to Church sensei naming Church sensei as Kanagawa prefectual leader of the Seishinkai????*
*As far as the kanji in the book, there are a few kanji in the book handwritten on the sides of the pages by Church sensei that were not correct, this also lends to the impossibility that Church sensei could possibly have forged the scroll.*

It is amazing that so many people can be influenced by politics and form opinions that no matter how much evidence you produce it still does not change the opinion. It will be argued forever I guess.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 16, 2006)

Pictures are worth a thousand words......

Click on to this link for pictures of Church / Kuniba in front of Church sensei's Kanban and the scroll.

www.geocities.com/aiki_kempo/churchkuniba.html

I will try to scan the images in "the book" Church sensei wrote.
There are plenty of pictures in the book with Church and Kuniba sensei together.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 17, 2006)

Having a picture taken with someone does not mean that person made you a "Soke".
Yes, Church did get his picture taken with Kuniba.  Yes Church did get some crdential from Kuniba.
Church lied about what those credentials were.
If getting your picture taken with someone is indictaive of rank and titles then I am also a 10th Dan and Soke in 20 different arts.

Again, you also need to come to understand that in Japan they do not have the kind of "Sokeship Councils" like Albert Church started here in the U.S.  Not only did Kuniba not make him a "Soke", he could not.  It's just not the way it's done over there.
Church is dead.  Please let his lies die with him.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 18, 2006)

Ok... I can see that in no way is this ever going to end.

Church sensei did not "just get a picture taken with someone". The picture is of his KANBAN that states Church sensei was the 
Kanagawa prefectual leader of the Seishinkai!!! The KANBAN is the point, not that he was in "a picture with someone".
 The only reason I even mentioned the pictures of Kuniba/Church being together is that earlier it was stated that there were *no pics*
of them together and it was called into question whether Church sensei was ever actually in Japan or trained with Kuniba.
 As far as the Soke issue...Kuniba sensei did not "make him anything". He was being sponsored and covered by an established system because of his inherited art. He was already a head family. He received a 30 foot long scroll (that has been viewed by several people). It was because of this that he received the secondary scroll from Kuniba (that is on the previous link page with all of his Godan and Shihan licenses from Kuniba sensei and Hayashi sensei). It is not unusual at all for a system to recognize the legitimacy of another system. This would especially be needed in the case of an American inheriting anything.

Of course this will not end here. Everyone has the right to believe anything they want. If all of the pictures and copies of the Menjo/Kanban etc. does not prove it then nothing will.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 19, 2006)

kamishinkan said:
			
		

> As far as the Soke issue...Kuniba sensei did not "make him anything". He was being sponsored and covered by an established system because of his inherited art.


Nonsense!

Why would this have to happen?  Why would Church want to be "sponsored" by a Japanese Budo organization if he alrady inherited a Chinese system from a Korean?  I'm sorry, but this is just a dumb story.
Why would Kuniba, who did not know Church before this time even give a flip about it?

If Church was appointed as "prefectural leader" of Seishinkai, how come he never served in that position?  If you are now going to say that he did, plase give the dates.

Kamishin Ryu and the "Kuniba scroll" are just figments of Churches imagination.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 19, 2006)

"If all of the pictures and copies of the Menjo/Kanban etc. does not prove it then nothing will."

Show me the real things, translated by a reptuable and neutral party - including the scroll, and I'll believe it.

In the mean time, we have the Kuniba word of Kuniba himself, his family, and his students who knew Church, all saying this never happened.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 19, 2006)

kamishinkan said:
			
		

> As far as the Soke issue...Kuniba sensei did not "make him anything". He was being sponsored and covered by an established system because of his inherited art. He was already a head family. He received a 30 foot long scroll (that has been viewed by several people). It was because of this that he received the secondary scroll from Kuniba (that is on the previous link page with all of his Godan and Shihan licenses from Kuniba sensei and Hayashi sensei).


 
Pardon me for butting in.. but is this 30 foot scroll the one that Mr. Guy Powers had seen back then when he was a junior student of Mr. Church? If not mistaken, Mr. Powers had translated some of Mr. Church's menkyos as well in one of those hot E-Budo debates...

Perhaps we could contact Mr. Powers and see what else he had discovered these past few years?


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## kamishinkan (Feb 19, 2006)

That is correct. The 30 foot scroll was given to Mr. Church and Power sensei (among others) saw it and remembers it well. Unfortunatly at that time he could not read Kanji. He does remember that the Scroll was bridged with thumb prints, which is pretty traditional for those who did not have bridge stamps. The "Kuniba Scroll" was translated by Power Sensei and all of Church sensei's menjo as well. As far as I am concerned the copies of these are on-line for anyone to translate as they see fit. To match the kanji on the scroll to any of Kuniba sensei's certificates is not hard to do either. You don't have to be a writing professional to see the similarities.  I love the people who claim Church sensei forged it.....They must have never seen Church sensei's Kanji!!!!! Better than mine but a far cry from what is on that scroll!
 Most of this is just re-hashing most of the e-budo topic anyway.
From what I understand Power Sensei, although openly stating he saw the 30 foot scroll, is staying pretty neutral until he gets the chance to see it again and read it. I am not sure that will ever happen since Mr. Church's wife kept the scroll after Church sensei's death and has kept it locked away. 
 Anyone who wishes to challenge Power sensei's reading of the Scroll/Menjo, have it/them read for yourself.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 19, 2006)

The scroll is not what was translated.  This is just another fabrication.
There is a very small portion of this alleged 30 foot scroll that was translated based on a photo copy.  The photo copy also came from another copy, because the original 30 foot scroll was "lost".

In addition, this portion of a copy of the alleged scroll can not be fully translated due to poor quality.  It all sounds just too convenient.

In addition, a student who would have a vested interest in making sure that Church is not seen as the liar that he was, is hardly a credible source to verify it.

If you were to take this "documentation" to a professional for examination, translation and verification of the "original 30 foot scroll", I am sure he would think your were not being serious, if not just laugh at you.

Kuniba said he did not give such a scroll, his family maintains that it was not given and it can not be proven.

Let's take it another step, since you can not prove the existence of the Kuniba scroll.  Show us the documentation that Church got from Kim Chi and brought to Kuniba.  Or was that convenitnly "lost" too?


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## kamishinkan (Feb 19, 2006)

I am not sure where this information came from.
The scroll that was translated that is on the link page a few posts earlier is not a "portion of the 30 foot scroll". The translated scroll is the scroll that came from Kuniba, *hence the Seishinkai seal at the front*....this is a much smaller scroll. View it for yourself at www.geocities.com/aiki_kempo/churchkuniba.html
The 30 foot scroll was never copied or any part of it. It is not lost, Mrs. Church still has it.
 Also, the Kanban that Kuniba and Church sensei is standing in front of could be read with a Kanji book, read it!
 This is way too much, If anyone does not believe this, that is your right. Just as it is others right to believe the obvious evidence before our eyes. I choose to believe Power sensei's reading of the scroll and menjo, if you do not, again that is your right. 
 Forums are amazing all you have to do is keep posting your opinions about others no matter how unsubstantiated and it must be truth.
I choose to believe documents, even if copies, not heresay. 
BTW, I know many of Kuniba sensei's students, no one I know has ever said Kuniba sensei denied the Kuniba scroll. That has only been said by Kuniba sensei's son, and everyone who has jumped on that side of this political bandwagon.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

Power Sensei translated part of the scroll - PART OF IT.
I don't think he staked his reputation by certifying that it came from Kuniba.  No reputable translator could do that.  Again, he was given a copy of a copy which could only be partially translated.

Has Power Sensei stated for a fact that the document he translated came from Kuniba?
Either way, how would someone doing a translation of a copy be willing to guarantee that it is in fact a copy of an actual document and not some that Church himself or one of his students pieced together from other documents?
This is the reason behind official seals - to avoid or atleast make it more difficult to reproduce.

I would venture to say that the copy of the document translated by Power Sensei is a fake, made by someone using other certificates, perhaps a kanji book, some white out and  a copy machine.  Church has done this before.  Other certificates that he claimed came from Kuniba had upside down and backwards kanji.

Since Kuniba and the family say he did not issue that to Church, it is up to you to prove that he did.  And that you have been unable to do.

Even if the so-called Kanaban can be translated, that still does not prove Church's claim of being made a "soke" by Kuniba, or that Kuniba recognized the Chinese/Korean Kamishin Ryuart as a Japanese art.

An old copy of a copy is not a document as you call it.  To beleieve that is just being gullibible or dumb.

Church did receive some rankings from Kuniba.  But not a scroll naming him a "soke".  This was a lie.  If you choose to continue spreading lies then that is up to you.  But it puts you in the same category as Church - a fool, a liar and phony.

When you can produce the original document and prove that it actually came from Kuniba then maybe people with some sense will beleive it.  Without the original document then you have nothing.

Why will the Church family not juct come out and produce the original document and prove it once and for all?  If continuing the story is so important that every couple pf months somebody has to come onto one of these boards and drudge it up again, then it should be important enough to prodcue the evidence to support the claim.

Show us the documents or just go back into your little fantasy world.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 20, 2006)

This is childish to say the least, Now posters are dropping to name-calling.

Power sensei has translated enough of the scroll to recognize it not to be a hoax of a "kanji book, white out and a copy machine". That is just ignorant. If it was that, it would be very easy to catch by someone able to read kanji! I have never, until now, heard of any ceritificates made by Church from Kuniba with upside down kanji, where is this so-called document? More heresay.

I am tired of this, the copies are on the page to view. Everyone has their own right to an opinion, even you, and I refuse to call you the names you called me for believing what you believe. I will not drop to that. 

I am shocked that this forum allows such name calling.

I am going to end this, I am sure you will post something else, your right. I think everyone has seen enough (and heard enough) to base their own opinion.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

You have once again failed , or refused,  to support how translating a small portion of a copy verifies that a document was in fact issued by a particular person.

This also is not a copy of the original document, because no one has been able to produce the original.  The document that Power Sensei translated was a copy of a copy, at best.  What evidence is there to prove that the copy of the document that Power Sensei translated is in fact an actual copy of a document written and sealed by Kuniba?  The answer is that there is none!  You therefore have no eveidence of your claims.

Produce the original document and the documents that Church supposedly took to Kuniba for verification.  The lame excuse that they were "lost" is tiresome and unoriginal.  These very valuable and irreplacebale documents would have been saeguarded to be passed on to the next "soke" to prove his lineage and inheritance of the art.  The chinese scrolls that Church inherited from the Korean would have been hundreds of years old and passed down from generation to generation.  Now were supposed to believe that they just got buried in Church's garage or his attic and  no one can find them?

The one document made by Chuerch that had the upside down and backward kanji is one that Katherine Church once brought out to prove some claims.  That docuemnt was proven to be a fake and immediately was added to the list of "lost documents".  She has been silent ever since.

It's well beyond time for the Church groups to put up or shut up.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 20, 2006)

I have never heard that any of the documents were "lost". According to Mrs. Church, she still has the documents. I have seen alot of the original menjo myself and some swords and other things when I moved Mrs. Church from the apartment they lived in to a house she lived in. This was the early 90's. 

 I have also heard just about every claim there is against Mr. Church and this "document" with upside down Kanji is a new one. 

It has been said the documents are copies of fakes. PROVE IT. What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty. Everyone has their opinion about the documents and there validity, but no proof. Just more opinions. 

 I never intended on training in the martial arts to end up being a debate artist. I will continue promoting what I believe to be truth based on the documents we do have, you don't have to approve.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

The lack of original documents and the word of Kuniba himself pretty much indicate that your copies are fakes.

Produce the original documents and have them verified by an independent thrid party. It will only cost you  a frw hundred dollars to do this.
Split up among all the people trying to prove that these copies are copies of real documents, it will only cost a few dollars each.
I would think it will be well worth your time and trouble to do this.  You will then have proof of what you claim.

I don't see how anyone can be so ignorant to believe that copies of documents posted on a web site constitute any kind of evidence of anything.

Also, just because you have seen the originals does not mean that Kuniba wrote.  

And please tell us how seeing sword at Church's house proves that Kuniba gave him the "soke scroll".  This is just dumb.

The last time any of these documents were shown in public was when it was pointed out to Katherine Church that some of the kanji were upside down and backward.  She crawled back into her cave and shut up about it after that.  If she, or her family, care so much about the dead liars posthumous reputation, then they will be more than happy to produce the documents and have them verified and prove everyone else wrong.

Like I said: put up or shut up!


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## kamishinkan (Feb 20, 2006)

It has been said again and again, I nor any of Kuniba sensei's students I know ever said HE denied the scroll, only his son.

As far as the swords I saw, it was just a fond memory. Sorry I shared!

I have lost my desire to debate this further. If I did have the original, I would not show anyone who has so openly called the person (Mr. Church and subsequently me) liars, fakes, etc, etc.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

Kozo Kuniba Soke wrote the letter to Black Belt denying that Shogo Kuniba  wrote the "scroll" on his father's behalf.  Shogo Kuniba Soke was still alive at the time and would of course had known it was written.  Also, Kozo would most certainly have spoken to his father before making such a statement.
Shogo Kuniba has denied issuing the "soke scroll".  He has not denied issuing rank certificates to Church.

Keep in mind that the last time Shogo Kuniba Soke heard from ALbert Church was the day he issued the rank certificates.
Church left Japan and never had any contact with Soke Kuniba or the Seishinkai ever again.  Kuniba moved to the U.S. in 83 and was shocked to see his former students and students of students,  calling themselves "soke".  Church was already dead by this time, but his family was running around making claims as to the existence of this "Kuniba Scroll".  It didn't exist in 1983 and doesnt' exist now.

Again, the only proof you would have of your claims would be the original documents.  Why, when it is so easy to do, would you refuse to support your claims?  My only guess would be because you know that there are no original documents to produce and you live in the same fantasy world that Albert Church did.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

here's another offer:

Produce the original documents.
I will take them, along with documents I and others have, written by Kuniba, to a document expert and have them examined.  I will pay all expenses and post the findings here and on e-budo.  I will also have the expert send his findings to you so you have them.

If your documents are in fact from Kuniba, I will pay you $10,000.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 20, 2006)

I do not have any documents to produce. I have never claimed to have any of the documents. I have said, numerous times, that Mrs. Church has the documents. The only documents (copies) I have I have posted, I am trying to be as up-front with all of this as I can and I am a little tired of being blasted by this post. I thought Martial Talk was a FRIENDLY DISCUSSION, I am tired of the negative posts (and name-calling) about the art I study and me personally for studying (and believeing) it.  Maybe a moderator should view this.


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## TimoS (Feb 20, 2006)

You know, if you read other forums also, you would have come up with this information over on e-budo: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13010

Another option would have been contacting mr. Power directly and not debate here what he might have said...


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

Ask Mrs. Church to provide the documents.  Without them you have NOTHING but a lot of talk and the word of the Kuniba family to discount your claims.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

TimoS said:
			
		

> You know, if you read other forums also, you would have come up with this information over on e-budo: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13010
> 
> Another option would have been contacting mr. Power directly and not debate here what he might have said...


 
From the e-budo thread:

"Ted Petit had been in correspondence with the gentleman and only recently learned of the photocopies. That gentleman provided photocopies of the photocopies.

We enhanced the photocopies to allow me to read the text."

This is not a valid way to verify documents and no reputable document expert would verify documents in this manner.
Orginal documents would have to be compared to other original documents. 

The original documents must be examined not only by a translator but a handwriting expert.  Also, having the work done by a friend and student of Church who has a vested interest in proclaiming them as real is not a good idea.  A neutral, 3rd party expert should do the work. 

No credible evidence has been brought up to support the claim.


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## TimoS (Feb 20, 2006)

Yes, it does say that. It also said 


> the penmanship is Kuniba sensei's. I base my pronouncement on other Kuniba correspondences/menjo to which I have compared this scroll.



Not that I care one way or another, it's just tiresome to read all this bickering. I think it is pretty clear that neither of you is going to change his mind about the issue. Not that I don't every now and then get into these kinds of fights myself


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

But Guy Power did not see the scroll.  Also, he did not say that he compared them to original documents known to be written by Kuniba or copies of documents people told him were written by Kuniba.  Maybe the Church people sent him other fake documents to compare to.

Guy Power was not a student of Kuniba.  What documents were used to compare to and where did they come from?

He saw an enhanced copy of a copy of what someone said came from the scroll.  
He has no way of knowing that they did not just take other correspondence from Kuniba and piece this together.  I think his zeal to try and salvage the reputation of his etacher has blinded him in this case.
It is sad to see someone with a good reputation make foolish judgements like this.

Again, until and unless an orginal document can be produced and verified as coming from Kuniba, the "kuniba scroll" story is just another modern day martial arts fairy tale.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 20, 2006)

I had forgotten that Power sensei stated he compared the kanji on the scroll to other Kuniba documents. 
 I also believe it was Power sensei who enhanced the image???? The last thing I would believe is Power sensei making FOOLISH JUDGEMENTS.
His reputation is well established in the Martial arts community.

 Again this could go on forever, I am happy with the copies of the documents we have to keep believing the "history" of Kamishin Ryu as given.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

It can go on forever.  And as long as foolish people want to believe foolish things, it will.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 20, 2006)

I GUESS! Or It could continue if foolish people refuse to accept the truth at hand.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

You have no proof!  

You have people who say they enhanced a copy of a copy of a document and compared it to other unidentified, unverified documents.

If this is enough proof for you, that is a sad commentary on your inteligence, but so be it.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 20, 2006)

Let's look at some other ridiculous claims made by Church:

"Albert C. Church (1930-1980) was a true pioneer in American martial arts, beginning his training in 1939 in Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu."

Where did he train in "Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu" (which is incorrect spelling of the art) in 1939?  And with who?

The earliest known introduction of Daito Ryu to the U.S. was in the 1960's by students of Yonezawa Sensei, and some even question that.  Even today there is only a handful of Daito Ryu schools in the U.S. and they are just "study groups".  There are no licensed instructors.

I would like to see verification of this claim.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

*KAMISHIN
*
*An American by the name of Albert Church inherited a traditional branch of Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujitsu  from a Korean master Kin Chi "Kooh" who was already a grandmaster, having inherited a pre-meijii system,  and Gunshi Church  was investigated and verified as the legitimate inheritor of Kooh's system by the late Soke (Gunshi) Shogo Kuniba of Japan.*

*Soke (Gunshi) Shogo Kuniba awarded a certificate to  Albert Church recognizing him as an inheritor. (this certification is on file )*

*Soke (Gunshi) Kuniba, along with Soke (Gunshi)  Hayashi of Japan joined with Soke (Gunshi) Church to create an international grandmasters certification board.*

* Then, upon his death in the 1970's, his art was inherited by one of his senior students and son-in-law  Robert Kelly, who then ** passed over his position as Gunshi or Headfamily to one Gunshi Ted Petit, making him the only person of the Kamishinryu (Soke Church's style) who is a  legitimate headfamily with the authority to sponcer first generation founders.*

*We have included a special section on this site that explains this system and the key figures who are and were involved in it, click on following link to go there:*
This, and other ridiculous statements can be found at www.ishh.net

This information was provided to ISHH by Ted Petit, the "soke" who has apparently conned Guy Power into believing this stuff too.

Since when did Albert Church inherit a Korean form of 'Daito Ryu'?
If it was "Daito Ryu" that Church inherited, then that would pretty much go against Church's story of the system being Chinese and passed on to a Korean before him.

The nonsense about Church, Kuniba and Hayashi forming a "grandmasters certification board" is also nonsense.  Church did this on his own and claimed he had support from Kuniba and Hayashi.  This kind of thing just is not done in Japan.

Albert Church is responsible for a long line of fake "soke" here in the U.S.
He helped Rod sacharnoski get his start and now his "inheritors" are lending the Church name to this and other "Sokeship boards".

I would very much like to see Guy Power, or anyone with any legitmate senior rankings and knowldge of the customs and traditions of budo come to the board and legitimize this kind of thing.

Remember that it was Petit who submitted the so-called "Kuniba Scroll" to Mr. Power for translation.  In keeping this kind of company, I am shocked to see that someone in Mr. Power's position would lend his name to help give him credability.  Unless of course he is also now in the business of selling "Sokeships".

Is there anyone willing to come on the board and stake thier reputation by stating that Ted Petit is a legitimate Soke?

What's also interesting here is that the ISHH claims to have posession the "Kuniba Scroll" naming Church Soke of this art.
Maybe we will get to see it after all.


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## shesulsa (Feb 21, 2006)

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## Miles (Feb 21, 2006)

I have no dog in this fight, so to speak as I train in TKD and don't know anything about these folks except what I've read over the years.

But I do have several questions:  How proficient was Church?  How proficient is Reidner?  People can argue all they want about paper, what about their respective abilities?

Miles


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## kamishinkan (Feb 21, 2006)

The information from ISHH website was put together by the person who owns the site NOT anyone from Kamishin Ryu. Most of the information posted there was pieced together incorrectly by the ISHH.
 As usual you can't do anything about what people say on the net. Kamishin Ryu does not claim ANY direct relationship to Daito Ryu other than techniques we train in that was learned. Daito/Hakko Ryu Jujutsu.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

The information was given to ISHH by "Soke" Ted Petit.

Church was not very proficient.  No one really understands why he was given any crdential sby Kuniba.  Although he never was part of the Seishinkai in the U.S., he was known by Mr. Baillargeon (the U.S. Director) and other seniors.  All had a very low opinion of him.

Same goes for Reidener.  He was a Shodan and promoted himself to 10th Dan.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

I asked on e-budo where there is another active thread about Church and Reidner.

It seems that Guy Power never has and never will recognize anyone as 'soke' of Kamishin Ryu or any such modern art.

The idea/title of Soke goes back centuries and is not really used in Japan any more.  The only was to become a Soke is through inheritance and it has to be a koryu (ancient Japanese school).  Kamishin Ryu, no matter how you look at, is not Japanese. So therefore Church can not be "soke".

Same goes for Dr. Soke Reidner.  His Shiho Karano Ryu was created in the U.S. by him.  It is a new art, he is not Japanese and the art is not Japanese.  Likewise, he is not Soke.  It is just his ego, that burns brighter than his red dogi, that drives him to use thit title in order to build himself up to the same mythic proportions as the ancient masters.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

It seems that Kamishinkan/Pastor Collins
(http://www.christianmartialarts.com/more.html) holds the title of Shihan-Renshi in the Kamishin Ryu organization.

Since when is Shihan-Renshi a proper Japanese title?  It seems a bit ridiculous to me.

But here is a question that goes to the heart of not only this, but this whole idea of "christian martial arts" in general.

Is it proper for a pastor to be part of such nonsense?  Not that they can't practice martial arts.  But is it proper to be part of such a hoax?  Shouldn't a pastor be held to a high standard of honesty?

Also, shouldn't a pastor be humble like Christ was?  It is not only odd, but dangerous, for a pastor to be so ego driven that they have to adopt these ridiculous titles and tell such ridiculous stories.

My next question to the pastor is this:  If Jesus were here today, would be be calling himself soke or shihan-renshi to try and impress the kids so they come to his Sunday School too?

I'm sorry.  One more question for the pastor:
On your Christian Martial Arts Association web site it says:
"The United States only Certified, Registered Christian Martial Arts Association"  Who are you registered with?  God?
Does God not resognize any of the other Christian martial arts organizations?


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## kamishinkan (Feb 21, 2006)

Ahhh, the attacks become personal, I am a pastor and I have tried to be as humble and respectful of all those posting even the gentleman who has tried over and over again to tear me and the art I study down.

The CMAA is not MY website, I was with the CMAA for a short time and decided to leave the organization. The NAME (CMAA) is registered. I do not know any more than that.

 The thought that Church sensei was not proficient as a martial artist and Kuniba just GAVE him a Godan and Shihan titles in Karate and Seishinkai Jujutsu is stupid to say the least.

 The term Soke is only used for inherited Koryu......Please tell that to the late Okuyama Sensei of Hakko Ryu and Hayashi Sensei of Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu, both used the title and were founders of their own arts.

I am tired of the shots at me. I thought this was a friendly discussion of the martial arts. I will not be posting to this anymore, I am tired of the personal attacks.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

"The NAME (CMAA) is registered"
Registered where? In "the Lamb's book of Karate"?
it just keeps getting more ridiculous.


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## Flatlander (Feb 21, 2006)

Mod Note:

This thread is locked pending Admin review.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT SuperMod-


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