# Question for people who have trained in Aikido for a while.



## Coker101 (Jan 6, 2014)

I understand that for beginners you have a set way of practicing and learning techniques (guy walks up and grabs your wrist, arm, whatever).  My question is, at a higher ranking or more advanced classes do you guys practice in a more realistic way?


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## K-man (Jan 6, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> I understand that for beginners you have a set way of practicing and learning techniques (guy walks up and grabs your wrist, arm, whatever).  My question is, at a higher ranking or more advanced classes do you guys practice in a more realistic way?


Mmm! What is realistic? We train against realistic punches and kicks, we train against chokes and holds and we train to reverse locks when they are being applied.

Training from a grip or hold is a method of training, nothing more. When you first start training your partner let's you perform the technique, that is 'receives' for you. As you progress the grip becomes stronger and stronger and the resistance to you performing the technique shifts towards full resistance. The grip is symbolic in that it doesn't exist either in the technique you are performing or in real life. The exercise is designed that you ignore the grip and perform the technique. When you can do that slowly against total resistance you are starting to learn Aikido. Aikido is a mind game. If your mind goes to the grip on your wrist your technique will not work. You will be stopped unless you have a much weaker opponent. Aikido is a 'soft' art that works by blending with your attacker, not physically clashing. Working from a grip teaches how to move around strength without clashing.

Again it is the Japanese principle of Shuhari. You learn the technique, you develop your technique then the technique just happens, even if it is not recognisable as the technique. That is why, when you see good Aikido, it just seems to flow. 
:asian:


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## Coker101 (Jan 6, 2014)

K-man said:


> Mmm! What is realistic? We train against realistic punches and kicks, we train against chokes and holds and we train to reverse locks when they are being applied.
> 
> Training from a grip or hold is a method of training, nothing more. When you first start training your partner let's you perform the technique, that is 'receives' for you.* As you progress the grip becomes stronger and stronger and the resistance to you performing the technique shifts towards full resistance.* The grip is symbolic in that it doesn't exist either in the technique you are performing or in real life. The exercise is designed that you ignore the grip and perform the technique. When you can do that slowly against total resistance you are starting to learn Aikido. Aikido is a mind game. If your mind goes to the grip on your wrist your technique will not work. You will be stopped unless you have a much weaker opponent. Aikido is a 'soft' art that works by blending with your attacker, not physically clashing. Working from a grip teaches how to move around strength without clashing.
> 
> ...



Thanks, that is what I was wondering about.


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## Coker101 (Jan 8, 2014)

I'm still considering Aikido but being 100% honest here I'm still concerned about the "real" factor.  I know people who train in Aikido probably hate to hear that and believe me I mean no disrespect.  It's just that I see so much Aikido bashing and people saying that every Aikido guy has gotten beaten to a pulp in mma....though I have to say I don't see how Aikido would even fit in mma at all anyway.  And to be honest I have no interest at all in bjj or mma anyway.

I have also heard that almost everything depends on someone grabbing you or catching their arm/hand.  That's pretty difficult in a real world situation....

So it does kind of concern me.  I loved the dojo I went by and I think I would really enjoy it but I'm a bit turned off at the idea that I would train in something combat/self defense related and it not be useful.  Still it's at the top of my list at the moment but advice or opinions on this from you guys is very welcomed.


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## Spinedoc (Jan 8, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> I'm still considering Aikido but being 100% honest here I'm still concerned about the "real" factor. I know people who train in Aikido probably hate to hear that and believe me I mean no disrespect. It's just that I see so much Aikido bashing and people saying that every Aikido guy has gotten beaten to a pulp in mma....though I have to say I don't see how Aikido would even fit in mma at all anyway. And to be honest I have no interest at all in bjj or mma anyway.
> 
> I have also heard that almost everything depends on someone grabbing you or catching their arm/hand. That's pretty difficult in a real world situation....
> 
> So it does kind of concern me. I loved the dojo I went by and I think I would really enjoy it but I'm a bit turned off at the idea that I would train in something combat/self defense related and it not be useful. Still it's at the top of my list at the moment but advice or opinions on this from you guys is very welcomed.



This:


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## K-man (Jan 8, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> I'm still considering Aikido but being 100% honest here I'm still concerned about the "real" factor.  I know people who train in Aikido probably hate to hear that and believe me I mean no disrespect.  It's just that I see so much Aikido bashing and people saying that every Aikido guy has gotten beaten to a pulp in mma....though I have to say I don't see how Aikido would even fit in mma at all anyway.  And to be honest I have no interest at all in bjj or mma anyway.
> 
> MMA is a sport. That is not to say that it is not effective for defending yourself in a street situation but it is primarily designed to prepare people for competition. Aikido is non competitive. Even Tomiki Aikido which does have competition operates with a totally different set of rules. Forget what others say about Aikido, most of that is uninformed opinion based on what they have seen on YouTube. Good Aikido is very effective but it does take time to get to that stage. If you want an art that will make you a legend on the street in 60 days, take up boxing or Krav. They give you the simple tools to do the job.
> 
> ...


Don't take any notice of uninformed chatter. Go along and try it for yourself. It will take time before you feel comfortable using it to defend yourself. If that is a concern, do something else. If it is not a concern, go for it. I love my Aikido training just as I enjoy my other MAs. At this time I consider my Aikido as effective as my Karate or Krav. In the future I can see it as being more effective as I get older.
:asian:


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## Coker101 (Jan 8, 2014)

Nice video Spinedoc, ty


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## Coker101 (Jan 8, 2014)

K-man said:


> Don't take any notice of uninformed chatter. Go along and try it for yourself. It will take time before you feel comfortable using it to defend yourself. If that is a concern, do something else. If it is not a concern, go for it. I love my Aikido training just as I enjoy my other MAs. At this time I consider my Aikido as effective as my Karate or Krav. In the future I can see it as being more effective as I get older.
> :asian:



Thanks again, K-man.  I knew you would reply.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 8, 2014)

Coker101

I mean no offense and I certainly understand researching a style but I think you may need to read this



> If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. - Bruce Lee



Just go give the schools you are asking about a try and go from there

:asian:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> depends on someone grabbing you or catching their arm/hand.  That's pretty difficult in a real world situation....


I don't train Aikido. But if you want me to choose between the follow 2 methods:

1. You attack me, I response to it. 
2. I attack you, you respond to it, I then respond to your respond.

I'll prefer the 2nd approach. The reason is simple. By using the 2nd approach, since when and how I may attack is all up to me, I don't have any dependency.

If I grab on my opponent's arm, I'm going to lock his arm. I'm not going to wait for him to lock my arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l67npZEAJk&feature=youtu.be


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## Coker101 (Jan 8, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Coker101
> 
> I mean no offense and I certainly understand researching a style but I think you may need to read this
> 
> ...


Non taken.  The thing is I hear Aikido takes a long time to "get it" compared to a lot of other MAs.  So I'm just trying at avoid getting in there for a couple years and then being completely disappointed.  I'm no longer a young man....time is important to me.


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## K-man (Jan 8, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> Non taken.  The thing is I hear Aikido takes a long time to "get it" compared to a lot of other MAs.  So I'm just trying at avoid getting in there for a couple years and then being completely disappointed.  I'm no longer a young man....time is important to me.


I was 58 when I started Aikido. Even if I hadn't continued, everything I learned translates into every other MA. The skills are transferable. Aikido has enhanced every other form of training I have done. The principles you learn in Aikido help you understand the other arts. In no way would you be wasting your time even if you were to change to a different MA after a couple of years training. 
:asian:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2014)

If you grab on your opponent's arm, you are going to lock his arm. You are not going to wait for him to lock your arm. It defeats the purpose for you to grab on his arm in the first place. This may get into the ancient spear and shield paradox. When you grab on your opponent's arm, who is going to lock who's arm?

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg


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## Coker101 (Jan 8, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you grab on your opponent's arm, you are going to lock his arm. You are not going to wait for him to lock your arm. It defeats the purpose for you to grab on his arm in the first place. This may get into the ancient spear and shield paradox. When you grab on your opponent's arm, who is going to lock who's arm?
> 
> http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg
> 
> http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg



I see.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 8, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> Non taken.  The thing is I hear Aikido takes a long time to "get it" compared to a lot of other MAs.  So I'm just trying at avoid getting in there for a couple years and then being completely disappointed.  I'm no longer a young man....time is important to me.



That is why you go give it a try, quickest way possible to figure out if it is for you and could also point the way to what you really want too

Good luck and enjoy the training

And for the record, I'm no spring chicken either


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## K-man (Jan 8, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you grab on your opponent's arm, you are going to lock his arm. You are not going to wait for him to lock your arm. It defeats the purpose for you to grab on his arm in the first place. This may get into the ancient spear and shield paradox. When you grab on your opponent's arm, who is going to lock who's arm?
> 
> http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg
> 
> http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg


Perhaps not always. Sometimes a person will grab an arm or shoulder with one hand in preparation for striking with the other. That grabbing severely disadvantages the attacker if you have trained against that form of attack. 
:asian:


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 9, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you grab on your opponent's arm, you are going to lock his arm. You are not going to wait for him to lock your arm. It defeats the purpose for you to grab on his arm in the first place. This may get into the ancient spear and shield paradox. When you grab on your opponent's arm, who is going to lock who's arm?
> 
> http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg
> 
> http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg



I think the idea is that if you are not well versed in grappling arts, and are facing an opponent who is armed with a sword, and you have no weapon, you will look for a way to prevent that opponent from drawing his sword.  Grabbing a wrist or some part of the strong arm will hopefully give you some ability to prevent the sword being drawn while you explore other possibilities.  Also, in contrast to we in the West, in the Orient, it is much more common for a person to grab you by the wrist to get you to go with them, whether forcefully or more friendly like.

Granted that we don't run around wielding swords against opponents very often these days, still, wrist and arm grabs are a good place to start learning grappling.  You begin to get a feel for how you can manipulate joints inasmuch as the wrist tends to be one of the weakest joints.  In the grappling arts of Aikido and Hapkido, many of the defenses can be modified into attacks.  Also, there are counters to many techniques, but in the Hapkido I learned, that wasn't taught until between 2nd and 3rd Dan.  There is a reason for that too; being well versed in many defensive techniques before you try counters.

All that to say don't doubt you will learn many useful techniques in Aikido if that is the art you choose.  You will also be very adept at defending against other MA.  That is really what Aikido and Hapkido are about, defending against other martial arts.  Just don't expect to be and 'expert' in 6 months.  

It will take at least 7 months.  :rofl:

As far as age, I was in my mid-40s when I started Hapkido.  I never felt so uncoordinated as when I started, and the truth be known, many times after as well.  But even later in life, you aren't too old to learn and be able to apply your training if misfortune strikes and you must.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> to prevent that opponent from drawing his sword. .


You are talking about some technique like this.









K-man said:


> Perhaps not always. Sometimes a person will grab an arm or shoulder with one hand in preparation for striking with the other. That grabbing severely disadvantages the attacker if you have trained against that form of attack.
> :asian:



So when you have your right hand on your opponent's right wrist, who will have better advantage?

- Since you grab on your opponent's wrist, you can let it go anytime that you want to. You are in control.
- If your opponent tries to punch you with his other hand, you can always pull his right arm across his body and let his right arm to jam his left arm.
- Even if your opponent's left hand may grab on your right wrist, you can always step in and drop your right elbow onto his chest.
- ...

There are so many advantages when your right hand grab on your opponent's right wrist. A grappler's first move is always to grab on his opponent's wrist. He can apply 

- arm dragging, 
- arm guiding,  
- arm pulling,
- arm shaking,
- ...

to redirect his opponent's arm to wherever he want that arm to be. It doesn't make sense to assume that your opponent can put lock on you before you can put lock on him. When you grab on your opponent's wrist, the moment that your opponent intends to do something, the moment that your hand has moved to his elbow joint and obtain the "clinch" that you are looking for. You will never stay in your wrist control position for more than 1/2 second.

It's a "spear and shield paradox" to assume that to grab on your opponent's wrist will put you in danger, it's not. I'm not an Aikido guy. But I believe it's better to train your skill when you grab on your opponent's wrist instead of to let your opponent to grab on your wrist.


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## K-man (Jan 9, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So when you have your right hand on your opponent's right wrist, who will have better advantage?
> 
> Me because if I have your right wrist you are probably about to have a painful lock applied.  I will only have hold of that wrist if I intend using it for something. But conversely, if my opponent has hold of my right wrist it is still me with the advantage. I can take my hand away at any time virtually as if it is not being held at all.
> 
> ...


Aikido training utilising wrist holds has nothing to do with fighting. It is is part of an exercise, actually a number of exercises, designed to develop your ability to move around an opponent's strength without using force. As Uke, you feel immediately someone start to use strength or allow tension in their arm and you can easily stop them moving. By developing the ability to not allow tension in the arm being held it becomes easy to bypass your opponent's strength and Uke can no longer prevent you from moving. 
:asian:


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## KydeX (Jan 9, 2014)

I totally agree with K-Man on this. I train in the Bujinkan myself, and I have to say if anybody grabs my wrist, I believe I have the advantage.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> _So you grab my wrist and half a second later you are letting go? If you could do that, and I doubt that you can grab, do something and release again in half a second, what was the point. Above, you are talking about 'many advantages' of grabbing the wrist and now you're grabbing and letting go straight away. I'm a little bit confused as to what you were grabbing the wrist for in the first place._



The reason is simple, for a grappler, he has to pass the wrist gate in order to reach to the elbow gate. To pass the elbow gate in order to reach to the shoulder/head/body gate (final destination).

In the following clip, the wrist grip will be replaced by an elbow grip, followed by ... That wrist grip only last for 1/2 second. That wrist grip is only temporary. What he really wants is the elbow grip.








K-man said:


> _Me because if I have your right wrist you are probably about to have a painful lock applied. _
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have just state the "spear and shield paradox" - What will happen when the sharpest spear meets the strongest shield? 

If 

- you have your opponent's wrist, you will apply a painful lock on him. 
- your opponent has your wrist, you can take your hand away any time virtually as if it is not being held at all.

What will happen if you "travel back in time", meet yourself, and use your right hand to grab on the right wrist of "another you"?


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## K-man (Jan 9, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The reason is simple, for a grappler, he has to pass the wrist gate in order to reach to the elbow gate. To pass the elbow gate in order to reach to the shoulder/head/body gate (final destination).
> 
> In the following clip, the wrist grip will be replaced by an elbow grip, followed by ... That wrist grip only last for 1/2 second. That wrist grip is only temporary. What he really wants is the elbow grip.
> 
> ...


Most people have no idea of the principles of Aikido, yet those principles translate seamlessly into other arts.
:asian:


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## Spinedoc (Jan 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> Aikido training utilising wrist holds has nothing to do with fighting. It is is part of an exercise, actually a number of exercises, designed to develop your ability to move around an opponent's strength without using force. As Uke, you feel immediately someone start to use strength or allow tension in their arm and you can easily stop them moving. By developing the ability to not allow tension in the arm being held it becomes easy to bypass your opponent's strength and Uke can no longer prevent you from moving.
> :asian:



THIS^^^^. 

It's a paradox in Aikido. If you try to muscle your way through a technique and use power...it might work...but probably won't. You have to let go (it's hard), while focusing, and just applying the technique properly. 

If you do it right, you should barely even be using any muscles.


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