# Palgwe Boon Hae / Bunkai



## tigycho (Feb 2, 2011)

Good afternoon!

I have been studying Tae Kwon Do for approx 4 years, and am beginning to get interested in Boonhae/Bunkai.

I own Simon O'Neill's Taegeuk Cipher, and have Stuart Anslow's Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul on order.  

Unfortunately, the organization my school belongs to teaches the Palgwes, instead of the WTF Taegeuks or ITF Ch'ang Hon patterns.

From several threads here and elsewhere, I've read that the Palgwe patterns are, for the most part, stitched together from Karate kata.

I know that there are a number of good resources on Karate bunkai, so I was hoping to begin mapping the Palgwes to their source kata, and then study the existing bunkai for the source kata sections.

I am hoping that someone has already done a study of the Palgwes and the kata from which they are remixed, so I can jump start my study.

Does anyone have, or know of, a list of which kata went into which palgwes?  

Any help would be appreciated!

Thansk!


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

tigycho said:


> I know that there are a number of good resources on Karate bunkai, so I was hoping to begin mapping the Palgwes to their source kata, and then study the existing bunkai for the source kata sections.
> 
> I am hoping that someone has already done a study of the Palgwes and the kata from which they are remixed, so I can jump start my study.
> 
> Does anyone have, or know of, a list of which kata went into which palgwes?



This is a project of mine with the Chang Hon forms and I have rather more detail there.  That said, this thread would be an ideal place to start discussing the Palgwes and their connection with karate kata if anyone is interested in participating.

Palgwe Sa Jang has obvious links into Heian Nidan (Shotokan) or Pinan Shodan (Okinawan styles or Wado-ryu).  You can look there as a starting point.  If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them to the best of my knowledge.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Palgwe Oh Jang has less clear connection to karate kata than #4.  The double low knife hand blocks are found in Heian Shodan and Heian Nidan however, and the scissors block in Heian Sandan, albeit they are repeated on both sides consecutively in the karate kata.  This has some implications in some of the bunkai I know, making them less likely interpretations for how it is performed in Palgwe Oh Jang.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Palgwe Yook Jang has the double outer block, front kick, punch, punch sequence which is also found in Heian Yondan.  Also the inverted knifehand strike and then lunging backfist.


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## Tez3 (Feb 2, 2011)

Try Iain Abernethy's site, although he's karate his Bunkai attracts a great many TKD, his seminars are where I meet quite a few from TKD. 
http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/
http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/forum/12


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Palgwe Yuk Jang has a tenuous connection to Heian Godan with the crescent kick, elbow combination.  This moved is followed up with a swastika block (manji-uke, not sure what Koreans call it) which is also featured in Heian Godan.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Palgwe Pal Jang has a elbow/punch to the back sequence at the end which is also found at the end of Heian Sandan.  At the beginning, there is a down block, backfist which could share the down block, hammerfist bunkai in Heian Nidan.

On an aesthetic note, this seems like a rather awkward form.  Does anyone like practicing this one?


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## tigycho (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Palgwe Yuk Jang has a tenuous connection to Heian Godan with the crescent kick, elbow combination.  This moved is followed up with a swastika block (manji-uke, not sure what Koreans call it) which is also featured in Heian Godan.



The swastika block looks like what I was taught as a 'half mountain block', or Santul Makki.


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## tigycho (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> This is a project of mine with the Chang Hon forms and I have rather more detail there.  That said, this thread would be an ideal place to start discussing the Palgwes and their connection with karate kata if anyone is interested in participating.



Wow!  I was hoping someone might have some pointers, but I wasn't expecting someone to come charging out of the gate like you've done!

Reading through your comments so far, it looks like the place to start is the Heian kata?


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

tigycho said:


> Reading through your comments so far, it looks like the place to start is the Heian kata?



Yes.  I'm not sure about the background of the people who designed the Palgwe poomsae, but the Heian series likewise are the obvious inspiration for the gup forms in Chang Hon.  In fact, if we look at all the Chang Hon forms, even the black belt ones, that have clear associations with karate patterns, they all seem to link back to the Heian, Bassai Dai, and Tekki Shodan kata.

Having viewed the Palgwe from 1-8 just now however, I think you're safe in just looking towards Heian bunkai such as exists for inspiration.  If you're feeling particularly ambitious, you can also look at the Okinawan explanations for the Pinan series and Kusanku as well as their promise kumite.


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## tigycho (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Yes.  I'm not sure about the background of the people who designed the Palgwe poomsae, but the Heian series likewise are the obvious inspiration for the gup forms in Chang Hon.  In fact, if we look at all the Chang Hon forms, even the black belt ones, that have clear associations with karate patterns, they all seem to link back to the Heian, Bassai Dai, and Tekki Shodan kata.
> 
> Having viewed the Palgwe from 1-8 just now however, I think you're safe in just looking towards Heian bunkai such as exists for inspiration.  If you're feeling particularly ambitious, you can also look at the Okinawan explanations for the Pinan series and Kusanku as well as their promise kumite.



Having said that, my plan is two-fold. 

1 - I will try to locate good sources to mine for information on Heian, Bassai Dai and Tekki Shodan, so I can relate it to the Palgwes.
2 - I will use this thread from time to time to record my findings as I do my research.

So, which resources would people consider the most valuable/accessible to a non-Japanese speaker/non-Karate-doin with respect to Heian, Bassai Dai and Tekki Shodan bunkai?


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

tigycho said:


> So, which resources would people consider the most valuable/accessible to a non-Japanese speaker/non-Karate-doin with respect to Heian, Bassai Dai and Tekki Shodan bunkai?



It depends on what you consider valuable.  'Valuable' may not coincide with accessible if you are delving into the more esoteric applications taught in karate, particularly the Okinawan versions.

Certainly there are people like Iain Abernethy or George Dillman who have attained some fame on the bunkai instructional circuit.  Both sell books and DVDs, although I can't comment on their quality myself.  Another book/DVD lead you might pursue is through Pat McCarthy's Koryu Uchinadi group.

Another option is to find capable instruction yourself in person from a teacher of the Okinawan styles.  I would recommend this myself if you have the time and inclination, although I warn you, it takes years of study before many sensei begin to share the good stuff.  This is partially out of hoarding and secrecy, but mainly IMO from the inherent truth that much of the good stuff is not usable unless you have attained a certain level of competence in non-commercial karate yourself.


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## tigycho (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It depends on what you consider valuable.  'Valuable' may not coincide with accessible if you are delving into the more esoteric applications taught in karate, particularly the Okinawan versions.



Let's start with Accessible, then =)



dancingalone said:


> Certainly there are people like Iain Abernethy or George Dillman who have attained some fame on the bunkai instructional circuit.  Both sell books and DVDs, although I can't comment on their quality myself.  Another book/DVD lead you might pursue is through Pat McCarthy's Koryu Uchinadi group.




I keep reading/seeing good things about Iain Abernethy (as above, from Tez3), so I'll certainly look at what he's been doing.

Is this the same George Dillman that does the DimMak stuff..?  I don't know what he's done Bunkai-wise, and it wouldn't be fair to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but one-touch knock-out stuff moves my Woo Meter needle over to 'Caution'.

I've not heard of Pat McCarthy's Koryu Uchinadi.  His IRKRS looks like its doing some interesting work.  I'll certainly have to look there as well.

I'll look into whether I can get any of these items via the library.  

For now, I'll be looking at the kata, mapping surface similarities between the kata and palgwe.



dancingalone said:


> Another option is to find capable instruction yourself in person from a teacher of the Okinawan styles.



Considering my location (small town North Dakota), that is going to be quite the challenge...  If you were to remove the various flavors of Tae Kwon Do from the landscape, what would be left would be a Martial Arts wasteland punctuated with cardio-kickboxing and fly-by-night MMA/BJJ gyms.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

tigycho said:


> Is this the same George Dillman that does the DimMak stuff..?  I don't know what he's done Bunkai-wise, and it wouldn't be fair to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but one-touch knock-out stuff moves my Woo Meter needle over to 'Caution'.



Yes, that George Dillman.  Again, I have no real personal knowledge of what he teaches, although I'm aware of some of his touch knockout claims.  I've have heard secondhand that before Mr. Dillman got into his more wilder territory, he was a karate-ka of some skill, particular when he was younger.

I will say I've been exposed to enough kyusho training (my sensei is also a practicing doctor of Oriental medicine and an acupunturist) to where I don't discount the topic at all.  The problem with any of this pressure point stuff (honestly with even simple okuden bunkai) is the difficulty in finding legitimate teachers who are willing to pass along the knowledge.  Don't assume everyone teaching some aspect of kyusho is a charlatan.



tigycho said:


> For now, I'll be looking at the kata, mapping surface similarities between the kata and palgwe.



You won't find as many hits as you would be if trying to do a similar mapping to the Chang Hon forms.  The Palgwes have been even further 'adulterated' if you are coming into this from a perspective of trying to trace descent from karate kata.



tigycho said:


> Considering my location (small town North Dakota), that is going to be quite the challenge...  If you were to remove the various flavors of Tae Kwon Do from the landscape, what would be left would be a Martial Arts wasteland punctuated with cardio-kickboxing and fly-by-night MMA/BJJ gyms.



Well, the best of luck to you then.  I spent a lot of time travelling before I ultimately found my own teacher, but I had the benefit of not having a job during that period.

I look forward to reading your own impressions on this subject.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 3, 2011)

As indicated above you can explore alternate applications with the books listed above. Movements in any pattern and sequences of movements often contain similarities to the stuff in these books. 

I would ad "Bubishi" as a source. 

I would also suggest that after a number of years training and exploration of patterns perhaps the focus on alternat applications is too narrow. 

I am starting to work on an article revisiting an old idea which seems to be new again but worded differently. 

It involves concept based training instead of technique / application based training.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I would ad "Bubishi" as a source.



It should be a source to any serious karate-ka.  That said, IMO the Bubishi is rather obscure and won't be too handy to anyone just starting out in their study of bunkai.



Earl Weiss said:


> I would also suggest that after a number of years training and exploration of patterns perhaps the focus on alternat applications is too narrow.
> ....
> It involves concept based training instead of technique / application based training.



The two go hand in hand.  Specifically taught applications help reinforce conceptual frameworks.  From my research and personal discussions over the years, I'm inclined to believe that Okinawan karate was never taught in a highly systemic way from the top down, where concepts are explained and then example problems are worked.  

Perhaps your article will help peel back the mystery.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Palgwe Pal Jang *has a elbow/punch to the back sequence* *at the end which is also found at the end of Heian Sandan*. At the beginning, there is a down block, backfist which could share the down block, hammerfist bunkai in Heian Nidan.
> 
> On an aesthetic note, this seems like a rather awkward form. Does anyone like practicing this one?


 

This is where writing is inadequate for me! I was taught that last movement is a throw which I can show you perfectly well but damned if I can explain it!
I like doing the Wado version of this kata Pinan Sandan but dislike the TSD version Pyung Sam Dan.

I've trained several times with Iain Abernethy, going next month for next session, he's down to earth, there's no BS and he's a good traditional instructor. He'll help you with anything he can and not for the money. He comes from the North West of England where they are 'what you see is what you get' type of people, plain speaking and no nonsense, his idea of self defence if being attacked is first to punch them hard and fast (he has heavy hands) and then if they don't drop then it's time for the fancier techniques, has no problem telling you that the best SD is getting the hell out. A cracking bloke, very learned in his subject and a nice dry sense of humour. 

Interestingly I was at a seminar where Ian was also for the first time and in past seminars they had a 'disciple' of Geroge Dillman doing the 'no touch KO demo. Everyone thought the inevitable no touch KO was coming but funnily enough after Iain expressed interest in seeing it they said they weren't doing it this time and stuck to 'normal' SD techniques which were perfectly fine and workable. Interesting and you can read bewteen the lines yourself lol.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> This is where writing is inadequate for me! I was taught that last movement is a throw which I can show you perfectly well but damned if I can explain it!



A picture is worth a thousand words.  Ippon seio nage is the judo name of the throw you are likely thinking of.  Youtube should have some examples.



Tez3 said:


> I like doing the Wado version of this kata Pinan Sandan but dislike the TSD version Pyung Sam Dan.



Yes, there's a certain no-nonsense feel to the Wado version of the kata.  I myself prefer the older versions of the form (which Wado may fall into) that do not have the crescent kicking blocks added.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> A picture is worth a thousand words. Ippon seio nage is the judo name of the throw you are likely thinking of. Youtube should have some examples.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there's a certain no-nonsense feel to the Wado version of the kata. I myself prefer the older versions of the form (which Wado may fall into) that do not have the crescent kicking blocks added.


 
I'll have a look when I get back from training. I must admit I don't like the crescent kicks either, the TSD version is also 'simplified' as are many of theirs.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm inclined to believe that Okinawan karate was never taught in a highly systemic way from the top down, where concepts are explained and then example problems are worked.
> 
> Perhaps your article will help peel back the mystery.


 
We are on the same page. By NOT teaching this way people learned the motions and had to figure out any number of ways to apply them limited only by their imagination and practical considerations. "Wax On Wax Off" " "Pick up jacket..."

The important part / priority  was performing the motion in an efficient, effective and well balanced manner.


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## DMcHenry (Feb 3, 2011)

For the last couple of moves of Pyung-ahn Samdan, I like to think of those as a neck break.  

Starting from the last punch, you grab the attacker around the neck and spin around for a throw.  While they are falling one way around you, reverse the twist on their neck the other direction....


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> This is where writing is inadequate for me! I was taught that last movement is a throw which I can show you perfectly well but damned if I can explain it!
> I like doing the Wado version of this kata Pinan Sandan but dislike the TSD version Pyung Sam Dan.




What is the difference between the two versions? By the way, GM LEE Won Kuk had some interesting comments about the founder of Wado Ryu.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> From my research and personal discussions over the years, I'm inclined to believe that Okinawan karate was never taught in a highly systemic way from the top down, where concepts are explained and then example problems are worked.




 My best teachers were all over the place. Some tried to stick to a curriculum, but most taught mainly by feel. The best teachers for me were the ones where you could never predict what would be taught in class that day.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> By the way, GM LEE Won Kuk had some interesting comments about the founder of Wado Ryu.



You can't leave us hanging after that!  Please, do tell.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> My best teachers were all over the place. Some tried to stick to a curriculum, but most taught mainly by feel. The best teachers for me were the ones where you could never predict what would be taught in class that day.



My teacher almost always taught by technique with very little verbal interaction.  He might correctly you bodily with his hands.  After assimilating a dozen or so of these 'samples', you're supposed to put it together yourself and derive the principle or at the very least a reasonable tactical understanding within the body if not the mind.  As I understand it, his approach is actually the norm for people of his generation and background.

I would like to change this to an extent for the audience I have.  I think westerners benefit from a lecture format of concepts followed by concrete examples demonstrated and then practiced.  At some point I would also like to add an enrichment component to my classes through video lectures and expositions.  Again, a very western approach to the age-old learning process.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> You can't leave us hanging after that!  Please, do tell.



GM Lee said that Wado Ryu's Otsuka Sensei betrayed FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei, and in that regard, he compared him to GM SON Duk Sung who he said was his Otsuka Sensei. It came up when we were discussing why GM Lee removed GM Son as Chung Do Kwan Jang and replaced him with GM UHM Woon Kyu. He said that GM Son was never his first choice to replace him, that his senior student was GM YOO Woong Jun, who ended up going to North Korea. It was only after GM Yoo left that GM Lee agreed to make GM Son the next Chung Do Kwan Jang. Everyone wanted GM Uhm to replaced GM Yoo, but GM Uhm (23) was considered too young at the time, so they went with GM Son (30).


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I would like to change this to an extent for the audience I have.  I think westerners benefit from a lecture format of concepts followed by concrete examples demonstrated and then practiced.  At some point I would also like to add an enrichment component to my classes through video lectures and expositions.  Again, a very western approach to the age-old learning process.



Then that will be your contribution, similar to mine, wherein we explain it as clearly as possible so that westerners can understand, in the hopes that we can keep it going for at least one more generation.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> GM Lee said that Wado Ryu's Otsuka Sensei betrayed FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei, and in that regard, he compared him to GM SON Duk Sung who he said was his Otsuka Sensei. It came up when we were discussing why GM Lee removed GM Son as Chung Do Kwan Jang and replaced him with GM UHM Woon Kyu. He said that GM Son was never his first choice to replace him, that his senior student was GM YOO Woong Jun, who ended up going to North Korea. It was only after GM Yoo left that GM Lee agreed to make GM Son the next Chung Do Kwan Jang. Everyone wanted GM Uhm to replaced GM Yoo, but GM Uhm (23) was considered too young at the time, so they went with GM Son (30).


 
And?


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## dancingalone (Feb 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> GM Lee said that Wado Ryu's Otsuka Sensei betrayed FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei...



Otsuka was already a jujutsu man of some renown before he studied with Funakoshi.  It would have likely been difficult for him to drop all his preconceptions in training totally given that, even if you discount totally the Japanese/Okinawan dynamic too.


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Otsuka was already a jujutsu man of some renown before he studied with Funakoshi. It would have likely been difficult for him to drop all his preconceptions in training totally given that, even if you discount totally the Japanese/Okinawan dynamic too.


 
Chaps, we are getting off topic here, can we get back to the OP please and not gossip. We don't need the mods looking at yet another TKD thread.


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## tigycho (Feb 4, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I would ad &quot;Bubishi&quot; as a source.


  Do you mean "The Bible of Karate Bubishi" by Patrick McCarthy?


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## tigycho (Feb 4, 2011)

tigycho said:


> Do you mean &quot;The Bible of Karate Bubishi&quot; by Patrick McCarthy?



 Or, did you mean: "Bubishi: The Classic Manual of Combat", translated by Patrick McCarthy?


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## dancingalone (Feb 4, 2011)

Bubishi: The Classic Manual of Combat is the newer edition, but they really contain the same content IMO.  I suppose you should get the newer translation since it has newer notes and some changes from Pat McCarthy.


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## tigycho (Feb 7, 2011)

<note to self during research>
Our school does Kibon Hyung (Kicho Ilbo) as well as the Palgwes.

Kibon Hyung appears to be identical to Taikyoku Shodan.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2011)

tigycho said:


> <note to self during research>
> Our school does Kibon Hyung (Kicho Ilbo) as well as the Palgwes.
> 
> Kibon Hyung appears to be identical to Taikyoku Shodan.


 
Also the Pinan katas but they seem to me to be a very much watered down version of the Shotokan and Wado katas. Less stances, less techniques and 'bits' changed just to make them seem different.


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## tigycho (Feb 26, 2011)

Found this from KyleJustKyle in this thread: http://tkdspace.com/forum/posts/id_767/ 


> Palgwe 1: Bog standard, for the purposes of this thread nothing interesting going on here.
> Palgwe 2: See above.
> Palgwe 3: See above.
> Palgwe  4: We have four instances of the Heian Nidan opening movement, except  the last technique in the sequence is knife hand instead of hammerfist.   Moving up the I and back there are two slightly more stylized instances  of the Heian Sandan/Kanku Dai dumb knife hand anti-grab technique,  where you give opponent your back just to get rid of a wrist grab on  your spear hand.
> ...


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