# The Blue Gi



## Patrick Skerry

Is the blue gi necessary for judo?  Will it hurt the art?  And should judo practitioners be forced to wear it for competition?  I'm totally against the blue gi myself and have already refused to wear it.


----------



## Hollywood1340

What does color matter? Have you looked into the history of WHY it's worn in competition? And how would it hurt the art, as outside of of the competition ring there is not need for it to be worn. The question is not what the players wearing but how the player plays.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> What does color matter? Have you looked into the history of WHY it's worn in competition? And how would it hurt the art, as outside of of the competition ring there is not need for it to be worn. The question is not what the players wearing but how the player plays.


"What does color matter?"  Is that why football players don't wear pink uniforms?

"Have you looked into the history of WHY it's worn in competition?"  Yes, I have - it was approved in 1997 by the International Judo Federation, then later by the International Olympic Committee (without the permission of any practicing judoka).  It wasn't accepted by the World Championships until a few years later.

The blue gi is totally 'not' accepted by either the Kodokan or the All Japan Judo Federation!  Which is why that stupid blue costume is not worn when competing in the Kodokan or the AJJC!

The blue gi was adopted to make the lazy referee's job easier calling points during matches; and to sportify judo to attract more ticket buying spectators - both unnecessary reasons for the baby blue gi!

How does it hurt the art?  It hurts the art of judo for the reasons it was adopted in the first place, not to improve Dr. Kano's vision of maximum efficiency with minimum effort, but to quantify Judo in the western tradition of instant gratification and visual appeal, i.e. quantity not quality.  The blue gi and the inane thinking behind its adoption will only serve to further alienate the practitioners of judo, and turn judo into something else - something 'not-judo'.

The blue gi is simply a horrendous abomination!


----------



## Hollywood1340

Well it's good to see one so passionate about what he does. As for the rest...well to each their own. I wear blue with pride. It's all about picking your battles.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Well it's good to see one so passionate about what he does. As for the rest...well to each their own. I wear blue with pride. It's all about picking your battles.


So how do you feel towards a fellow judo enthusiast who would refuse to wear a blue gi, and was persecuted for it?  Would you go to his aid at a major tournament, say the Nationals?  Would you support an organized boycott of the blue gi?

Also, how would you feel if you visited a traditional judo dojo and they asked you not to wear a blue gi?  Or if you were invited to a non-sanctioned judo shiai that didn't allow blue gi's, would you attend?

I think this is the direction judo is heading.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Well it's not me. If you refuse to wear blue, you can't compete in some tourneys. I guess it depends on what it's worth to you. Again I say it's only for competition. Not for the dojo, testing, what have you. I mean I find it to be a rather minor thing. Judo is what you make it. It seem refusing to do something set down by a higher up is extremly disrespectful, as in some cases it's not what YOU want. But I am enjoying this. Judo world needs people like you 
http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistoryOne.htm


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Well it's not me. If you refuse to wear blue, you can't compete in some tourneys. I guess it depends on what it's worth to you. Again I say it's only for competition. Not for the dojo, testing, what have you. I mean I find it to be a rather minor thing. Judo is what you make it. It seem refusing to do something set down by a higher up is extremly disrespectful, as in some cases it's not what YOU want. But I am enjoying this. Judo world needs people like you
> http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistoryOne.htm


Refusing to do something set down by a higher up is how this country was founded.

Pouring lemonade on me then telling me its raining by a higher up is also very disrespectful.

And accepting change without critical assessment is fatalistic and undemocratic.

I told a sensei at a prospective judo club I wanted to join that I have no intention of wearing a blue gi, and I received a long hard stare in return. But judo is not the military and I don't have to wear a blue gi. If I am forced, I will get a lawyer and sue for discrimination - it might set a precedent.

What if the National Football League approved pink tutu's as a required uniform, and a professional football player refused to wear it - would he be wrong? I feel the blue gi is equally ridiculous as a pink tutu.

An organization harboring similar views is the KANO SOCIETY, at:
http://www.kanosociety.org so I am not totally alone in my opinion.

Thanks.


----------



## bignick

also...from what i understand..the color blue was adopted because it looked the best on tv...this is from my instructor, so excuse my ignorance if i'm incorrect...

my instructor has this philosophy concerning gi's in class....you can wear any color you want as long as it's white

but even without the blue gi they still have ways to distinguish between the contestsants...i.e. the Red vs White tournament....

i really don't have a problem wearing a blue gi in competition...i don't own a blue gi and i've never worn one...but i don't see what the problem is


----------



## bignick

also...we have to realize that when we practice judo we are borrowing and learning from another culture...and it is a great benefit to live in a world where oppurtunites as such present themselves...and you say that the blue gi is a westernization of judo...to help quantify the participants and impose western rules about the sport...well...what's so wrong about the east borrowing a little from the west...

don't assume that one group has it totally right...it is my understanding that the kata guruma was added to judo after kano had seen some western wrestling...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> also...from what i understand..the color blue was adopted because it looked the best on tv...this is from my instructor, so excuse my ignorance if i'm incorrect...
> 
> my instructor has this philosophy concerning gi's in class....you can wear any color you want as long as it's white
> 
> but even without the blue gi they still have ways to distinguish between the contestsants...i.e. the Red vs White tournament....
> 
> i really don't have a problem wearing a blue gi in competition...i don't own a blue gi and i've never worn one...but i don't see what the problem is


Again, the problem with the blue gi is the attitude behind its adoption.  Prior to the adoption of the blue costume in 1997, a red sash was used to distinguish the two players, that was all that was needed.  Good shimpans (referees) did the rest.  The Red & White tournaments held in the Kodokan had nothing to do with distinguishing one competitor from another.

Also, as a side note, it is inconsiderate to impose the expense of a second gi on competitors.  If you want me to have a blue gi, then you can pay for it - they're much more expensive than white gi's.


----------



## bignick

so why did they use a red sash then?

surely a good referee wouldn't need such an artificial way to tell the competitiors apart


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> so why did they use a red sash then?
> 
> surely a good referee wouldn't need such an artificial way to tell the competitiors apart


A simple red sash is all that should be needed to distinguish two judoka tangled up in newaza, any thing else would be ostentatious, especially the garish blue suit.

So a simple red sash is all that a good referee should need to distinguish two judo players.

The blue gi with shoulder markings and other trappings is just the western attempt to quantify judo and prevent litigation from bad calls made by lazy referees.

The baby blue gi is way overkill in order to tell the difference between two judo players.


----------



## bignick

let me start by saying that the football player's not wearing a pink tutu is a bad example....

dancer's wear that type of dress because the need something that comfortable and doesn't inhibit their range of movement...

football player's wear what they wear because they need something that will hold all of their protective equipement in place...as for them not wearing pink uniforms...well...that stems from the western conciousness considering it to be a color associated with the female gender...

Surely you arent' objecting to wearing a blue gi because it's "girly"...

A blue gi is just that...a gi dyed blue...same material...it serves the same purpose as a white gi...

i think you're going a little overboard in calling it "simply a horrendous abomination!"

i think there a lot more problems that face modern judo than the way we distinguish between competitors during a shiai


----------



## Hollywood1340

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Refusing to do something set down by a higher up is how this country was founded.
> 
> Pouring lemonade on me then telling me its raining by a higher up is also very disrespectful.
> 
> And accepting change without critical assessment is fatalistic and undemocratic.
> 
> I told a sensei at a prospective judo club I wanted to join that I have no intention of wearing a blue gi, and I received a long hard stare in return. But judo is not the military and I don't have to wear a blue gi. If I am forced, I will get a lawyer and sue for discrimination - it might set a precedent.
> 
> What if the National Football League approved pink tutu's as a required uniform, and a professional football player refused to wear it - would he be wrong? I feel the blue gi is equally ridiculous as a pink tutu.
> 
> An organization harboring similar views is the KANO SOCIETY, at:
> http://www.kanosociety.org so I am not totally alone in my opinion.
> 
> Thanks.


Okay, I'm going to cease responding and I'll tell you why. For starters, if I'm getting what your saying right, you'd take legal action becasue you can't wear a uniform you want to wear? Lets take it another step. The uniform you don't want to wear is in your eyes a wesertnfication of the great art of judo? As I undertand it, you wear what sensei says wear, be it pink or blue, or polka dotted. That is your place as a student. Do you think you could step on any mat of a reputable gym and refuse to wear a uniform and expect to train? That is not a right dude, that is a privilage, one which in reading your posts its obvious you have not earned. You fail to see judo as it is, action and motion. It's not the uniform. If that is your biggest hang up you got a lot coming to you in the wide world of Judo. Better yet, go join Zen Judo, as they train as Kano meant judo to be trained. And for the rest, prove it on the mat. You'd make a good Uke I think.


----------



## bignick

strangely enough...this is the first time i've heard somebody on the forum mention zen judo...

which is what i train in...i didn't think anybody else had heard of it


----------



## Hollywood1340

Bignick,
 I have my own issues with Zen Judo, which has no bearing on this issue. But in the end for me it comes down to a few things regardless of style 
1. Do you train hard?
2. Do you train with heart?
3. Do you test your skills?
4. Can you learn?
5. Can you teach?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm going to cease responding and I'll tell you why. For starters, if I'm getting what your saying right, you'd take legal action becasue you can't wear a uniform you want to wear? Lets take it another step. The uniform you don't want to wear is in your eyes a wesertnfication of the great art of judo? As I undertand it, you wear what sensei says wear, be it pink or blue, or polka dotted. That is your place as a student. Do you think you could step on any mat of a reputable gym and refuse to wear a uniform and expect to train? That is not a right dude, that is a privilage, one which in reading your posts its obvious you have not earned. You fail to see judo as it is, action and motion. It's not the uniform. If that is your biggest hang up you got a lot coming to you in the wide world of Judo. Better yet, go join Zen Judo, as they train as Kano meant judo to be trained. And for the rest, prove it on the mat. You'd make a good Uke I think.


Hi James,

As I wrote earlier, its not just the blue gi, although that is a factor, but it is the attitude that adopted the baby blue costume in the first place that is the real threat to judo; the twisting and mangling of a martial art into a western sport whose only goal is to win medals and provide entertainment to ticket buying spectators. Dr. Kano warned against this several times. He distinguished the difference between jodan judo (as practiced in Japan) and godan judo (as practice in the sleazy Olympics).

Am I threatening legal action? You bet your baby blue gi! Especially since this is the age of litigation, if I am prevented from competing because I am an orthodox judoka and won't wear a blue gi, that is simply discrimination on part of the IJF, especially since the IJF did not seek out in 1997 any practicing judoka's vote or permission or opinion about an offensive color change!

If I go to a gym and refuse to wear their bunny suit, that is not a problem since I have the option of simply going to another gym and wear my own preferred suit. Yet in judo, that option has been removed, the IJF demands you wear their freaky blue costume in a public place and you must pay for it to boot. I'm sure a civil liberties union lawyer can smell money in that lawsuit.

And as far as Zen judo goes, Dr. Kano never heard of it. I believe Zen judo advocates no competition at all, and Dr. Kano indicated how important tournament was to character development and technique testing, his ratio was: Randori 80%; kata 17%; and shiai 3% of the judo repetoire - not 99% competition and no kata like some stupid Western sport.

Please visit the excellent site: http://www.judoinfo.com for some needed research on judo theory and Dr. Kano's view towards judo. Then visit the Kano Society at: http://www.kanosociety.org to understand that I am not alone in my opinon on sport judo.


----------



## bignick

i'm not saying zen judo is the answer to all questions...was just saying that's the style i train in...

it's not a matter of advocating no competition...it's a matter of that's not our goal...my instructor has competed and won on the national level in both shiai and kata...

kano never heard of zen judo because he was dead by the time it was founded...

you keep referring to high judo as it's practiced in japan and referencing the sleazy olympics...well...last i checked...japan competes in those sleazy olympics...how high does that make their judo

i think you have an over romanticized view of japan and the judo practised there...


----------



## bignick

another question if the IJF and other organizations are so corrupt and horrible why do you keep wanting to enter into their tournaments...it's not discrimination because you don't want to follow their rules on uniforms and competitions...you're gonna have a heck of time convincing a judge that you were discriminated against because you didn't want to wear a blue gi...it'd be different if there were racial, sexual, ethical overtones here...but there aren't...your sole argument for lawsuit is that "i don't like blue gi's"  not the strongest grounds for litigation


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> i'm not saying zen judo is the answer to all questions...was just saying that's the style i train in...
> 
> it's not a matter of advocating no competition...it's a matter of that's not our goal...my instructor has competed and won on the national level in both shiai and kata...
> 
> kano never heard of zen judo because he was dead by the time it was founded...
> 
> you keep referring to high judo as it's practiced in japan and referencing the sleazy olympics...well...last i checked...japan competes in those sleazy olympics...how high does that make their judo
> 
> i think you have an over romanticized view of japan and the judo practised there...


I still feel that the Olympics (not necessarily the athletes) are sleazy, and even though both the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Association are dead set against the blue gi, they fear being internationally isolated again, so, in a demonstration of _REAL POLITIK_, Japan competes in the Olympics, but are loathe to do so.

I realized that Zen judo was developed after the death of Dr. Kano, and that competition is de-emphasized, but that is a mistake.  Competition is very necessary for both character development and technique testing, as clearly specified by Dr. Kano.  Any tinkering with the genius Dr. Kano's creation is simply not judo - the ratio of 80%:17%:3% formulated by the founding genius is perfectly adequate.

Also, out of curiosity, who is your instructor?  I might have read about him.


----------



## bignick

Vern Borgen is the main instructor of the school...but 95% percent of my instruction comes from Jana Seaborn(she was the one i was referring to about national competition) and Timothy Cruff(who is also my jujitsu instrcctor)

you say competition is over emphasized and then find fault with Zen Judo for de-emphasizing it?  We don't eliminate...we just keep it in that 3% role that you refer too...

also i've never heard an official protest from the Kodokan about the Olympics and their willing reluctance to participate in the games


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> Vern Borgen is the main instructor of the school...but 95% percent of my instruction comes from Jana Seaborn(she was the one i was referring to about national competition) and Timothy Cruff(who is also my jujitsu instrcctor)
> 
> you say competition is over emphasized and then find fault with Zen Judo for de-emphasizing it? We don't eliminate...we just keep it in that 3% role that you refer too...
> 
> also i've never heard an official protest from the Kodokan about the Olympics and their willing reluctance to participate in the games


A little rocky with your reading skills. Yes I, and a lot of others, say that judo competition is way over-emphasized, and yes I do criticize Zen judo for de-emphasizing competition. 

Yet you now claim that Zen judo keeps judo competition within the 3% ratio prescribed by Dr. Kano (not I), so that is not a de-emphasis. I thought you wrote in an earlier post that Zen judo does not emphasize competition? That must be my mistake.

The kodokan never officially protested the Olympics, just the blue gi. There was a huge rift between the Kodokan, AJJF, and the Olympic committee, IJF in 1997 about rule changes, including the blue gi and the Golden Score, which almost caused a walk-out by Japan. But, again, in recognition of _Real Politik_, they reconsidered their stand and continued competing in the Olympics, again, very reluctantly.


----------



## bignick

One of the reasons for founding Zen judo was that competition had become the focus of judo organization it broke off from...Zen Judo took the emphasis off competition and put back on the perfection of technique..that was the demphasis of shiai i was referring



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Yet you now claim that Zen judo keeps judo competition within the 3% ratio prescribed by Dr. Kano (not I), so that is not a de-emphasis. I thought you wrote in an earlier post that Zen judo does not emphasize competition? That must be my mistake.


Your mistake?...not at all, that was you trying to twist my words to make it sound like i was contradicting myself...

Zen judo does not emphasize competition...If you're doing something 97% of the time and then you work on something else 3% of the time...which one are you emphasizing?

I'd like to get this thread back on-topic...your original post was why should we wear a blue gi? Why shouldn't we? 

According to you



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> As I wrote earlier, its not just the blue gi, although that is a factor, but it is the attitude that adopted the baby blue costume in the first place that is the real threat to judo; the twisting and mangling of a martial art into a western sport whose only goal is to win medals and provide entertainment to ticket buying spectators. Dr. Kano warned against this several times. He distinguished the difference between jodan judo (as practiced in Japan) and godan judo (as practice in the sleazy Olympics).


and calling it a "horrendous abomination"....also after looking around a bit on the Kodokan website and the internet i couldn't find a single mention of protest from the Kodokan or another organization protesting the blue gi...

i did only spend about an hour looking...so i could have missed something...if i did...forgive...

i feel you have completely blown this out of proportion...you're giving great meaning as the symbol of the downfall of judo...

when it's just a simple way of keeping track of who's who in match


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> One of the reasons for founding Zen judo was that competition had become the focus of judo organization it broke off from...Zen Judo took the emphasis off competition and put back on the perfection of technique..that was the demphasis of shiai i was referring
> 
> 
> Your mistake?...not at all, that was you trying to twist my words to make it sound like i was contradicting myself...
> 
> Zen judo does not emphasize competition...If you're doing something 97% of the time and then you work on something else 3% of the time...which one are you emphasizing?
> 
> I'd like to get this thread back on-topic...your original post was why should we wear a blue gi? Why shouldn't we?
> 
> According to you
> 
> 
> and calling it a "horrendous abomination"....also after looking around a bit on the Kodokan website and the internet i couldn't find a single mention of protest from the Kodokan or another organization protesting the blue gi...
> 
> i did only spend about an hour looking...so i could have missed something...if i did...forgive...
> 
> i feel you have completely blown this out of proportion...you're giving great meaning as the symbol of the downfall of judo...
> 
> when it's just a simple way of keeping track of who's who in match


Hi Rich,

Are you actually reading my posts?  What 97% of something does judo emphasize?  Again, the ratio as perscribed by Dr. Kano was: 80% randori, 17% kata; and 3% shiai.  You can read about this in Donn Draeger's article: 'What is Rank?' at the excellent judoinfo site.

Also, if you want to find out the Kodokan's attitude toward the blue gi and all the IJF rule changes, contact the Kodokan directly.  They will fill you in.

As to why we shouldn't wear the blue gi, I made myself clear in several past posts on this thread.

As for the blue gi being just a simple means of keeping track of who's who in a match, I've already pointed out that a red sash is a much simpler means than staining a beautiful white gi blue just for identification, or forcing a judoka to pay $190 to $300 for a blue monstrosity.

You still don't have an adequate argument for the blue gi.  I feel the rationalization for the blue gi is ripping judo apart.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> What 97% of something does judo emphasize? Again, the ratio as perscribed by Dr. Kano was: 80% randori, 17% kata; and 3% shiai.



add 80% + 17% = 97%



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> the blue gi is ripping judo apart



i think my points have been adequately made...this discussion is going nowhere...it was nice to have some action in the judo/jujitsu section again...but i'm gonna leave this thread alone unless something worthwhile comes up


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> Any tinkering with the genius Dr. Kano's creation is simply not judo





> I feel the rationalization for the blue gi is ripping judo apart.


I'm glad you're so passionate about your martial art.  I still don't understand why the color of a gi will destroy judo competitions.  Is it that a tradition has been altered?  Or you just think the light blue gi is effeminate?  Either way, it seems to me you can play by the rules in competition, or choose not to compete.  The freedom is yours.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> I'm glad you're so passionate about your martial art. I still don't understand why the color of a gi will destroy judo competitions. Is it that a tradition has been altered? Or you just think the light blue gi is effeminate? Either way, it seems to me you can play by the rules in competition, or choose not to compete. The freedom is yours.


Hi Feisty,

Its not so much passion as it is trying to resolve an issue.  As I mentioned in earlier posts, it is not so much the blue gi, although that is a factor, it is the rationalization for the blue gi by the Olympic commttee and the International Judo Federation which is hurting judo.

The choices have all been removed, if I don't want to work out in a specific gym, no problem, I can go to a different gym.  Not so with judo, the options have been removed.  It I don't want to wear a blue gi, that means I cannot compete anywhere, my options have been removed by a judo organization without my input or vote, or any other judo player for that matter.  You either obey without question, or you are ostracized from all judo.  That hurts all of judo.

Also, the sportification of a martial art is ruinous, like smashing a round peg into a square hole, ignoring the mutilation taking place, and then saying SEE IT FITS!

I'm not going to walk away from judo, I like it too much.  But I was hoping to examine arguments for or against the blue gi in Judo.


----------



## auxprix

> I told a sensei at a prospective judo club I wanted to join that I have no intention of wearing a blue gi, and I received a long hard stare in return. But judo is not the military and I don't have to wear a blue gi. If I am forced, I will get a lawyer and sue for discrimination - it might set a precedent.
> 
> What if the National Football League approved pink tutu's as a required uniform, and a professional football player refused to wear it - would he be wrong? I feel the blue gi is equally ridiculous as a pink tutu.
> 
> An organization harboring similar views is the KANO SOCIETY, at:
> http://www.kanosociety.org so I am not totally alone in my opinion.
> 
> Thanks.


I don't blame the sensei for his reaction. I would do the same thing if somebody protested something so petty.

I see your point, and it for the most part makes sense. As I understand it, you feel that judo is moving away from its roots. You want the shiai rules to relax so that there is a less forceful approach to how matches are fought, which better reflects Judo as a Matial Art. You hope to conserve the old ways and not let Judo 'dematerialize' into a sport. I have absolutely no problem with this argument, and I can appreciate your passion on the issue.

But, come on...Pick your battles, man! Not every change is bad. I don't see the harm in me, or the refs, being able to more easily distinguish between the competitors with the use of the blue gi. In my opinion, the blue gi is not something that kano would have resisted. Even during his life, Judo was constantly changing. Techniques were added, modified, and dropped. Rules and strategies changed dramatically. The gi wasn't even invented untill several years after Judo's inception.

Here's how I see it. What is seen in the olympics is Judo the Sport. There is also an art to Judo that you don't see in the competitions, and that can be learned in the Dojo. Not all Dojo's concentrate on it, so it's up to the individual to pick a balance that fits them best.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

auxprix said:
			
		

> I don't blame the sensei for his reaction. I would do the same thing if somebody protested something so petty.
> 
> I see your point, and it for the most part makes sense. As I understand it, you feel that judo is moving away from its roots. You want the shiai rules to relax so that there is a less forceful approach to how matches are fought, which better reflects Judo as a Matial Art. You hope to conserve the old ways and not let Judo 'dematerialize' into a sport. I have absolutely no problem with this argument, and I can appreciate your passion on the issue.
> 
> But, come on...Pick your battles, man! Not every change is bad. I don't see the harm in me, or the refs, being able to more easily distinguish between the competitors with the use of the blue gi. In my opinion, the blue gi is not something that kano would have resisted. Even during his life, Judo was constantly changing. Techniques were added, modified, and dropped. Rules and strategies changed dramatically. The gi wasn't even invented untill several years after Judo's inception.
> 
> Here's how I see it. What is seen in the olympics is Judo the Sport. There is also an art to Judo that you don't see in the competitions, and that can be learned in the Dojo. Not all Dojo's concentrate on it, so it's up to the individual to pick a balance that fits them best.


Hello Auxprix:

Obviously refusing to wear a blue gi is not so petty, since the Japanese also refuse to wear it at any judo shiai in Japan.  You must start somewhere if there is going to be positive change.

Not all innovation is good, and not all change is for the better, and the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Association is very aware of that in judo.  

Dr. Kano definately would have resisted the blue gi, which is why he did not have multi-colored gi's in the first place.

But yes, I do feel judo is moving away from its roots, and so do a lot of others; see http://kanosociety.org to read more about it.

Judo is being twisted and mutilated into something that is not-judo, and the blue gi is the slippery slope, the camel's nose peeking into the tent sort-to-speak.  So we must take a stand somewhere, and by simply refusing to wear that ridiculous blue suit is a nice quiet and gentle way to start.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Not all innovation is good, and not all change is for the better



this is true...but refusing to adapt and evolve can lead to extinction...



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Dr. Kano definately would have resisted the blue gi



i don't feel anyone on this board, or in the world abroad, has the ability to speak on behalf of Kano Sensei and what he would have wanted...I believe that he would have been disappointed with some the directions judo is heading(here i am not speaking on behalf of him, but referring to his own thoughts on the way judo was being practiced while he was still alive, and how judo has continued with some of those trends)...but who knows what he would have thought of the blue gi...not you, certainly not myself...


----------



## Baytor

I'm trying to understand this...forgive me if I'm off base here, CSPAN is also on and actually interesting...

You don't like the blue gi because it is encouraging the "sportification" of Judo.  Yet part of your contention is that by not wearing it...you can't compete in the sport?  

You are against change in the system of Judo.  I am going to assume by your name that you are not Japanese.  Isn't teaching the martial arts to foreigners something that only became really accepted after WW2?

Respectfully,


----------



## Hollywood1340

Okay, I know I said I'd stop posting but this is too entertaining to NOT post. Also I want to be a BB here at MT, so what's a guy to do? The fact is I've been missing out. There is 19yo out there who knows what Kano would do, knows more about Judo then just about anyone, and apparently has done in depth research to reach is conclusions. I spent all this time under a third generation forth degree black belt for nothing!  Have spent time on the mats learning to move for zilch. Wow, I can say without sarcasm I am impressed. Ya got guts, I'll give you that. But that's all. And out of curiosity Patrick, what is your judo education?


----------



## Robert Carver

Mr. Maxwell:

Patrick is not likely really Patrick, nor is he probably 19. He is an Agenda Troll that originally signed up over at BudoSeek!, under the username Jack Stay. He listed his age at 47 and his martial arts as Go-Ju Ryu, Aikido, Judo. When things did not go his way, he requested that his account be closed. I complied with his request by making his account "inactive". If you would do a search on "Jack Stay" at BudoSeek!, you will notice that his posts and threads are almost identical to the posts here. He will argue that he was banned because of his anti-BJJ remarks, but I do want to emphasize that his account was closed at HIS request. He made that claim in the Rickson Gracie thread here on MT in the Grappling forum. You will see my reply there.

After Jack's account was closed at BudoSeek! at his request, he again signed up under two new usernames. The first was Keelhaulhim and the other was Patrick Skerry. Both of these accounts were banned because they not only violate our policy on duplicate accounts, but also the our "real name" policy. 

The reason I am letting you know this is that because of his deceptive nature, it is doubtful that you will receive an truthful answer to your question about his training background.


----------



## bignick

i figured that early on...especially after i read you post on the gracie thread...i read it before i ever started posting in these threads...but sometimes a "polite" discussion can be entertaining...and like Hollywood said...i've got a lot of posts out of him


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> I'm trying to understand this...forgive me if I'm off base here, CSPAN is also on and actually interesting...
> 
> You don't like the blue gi because it is encouraging the "sportification" of Judo. Yet part of your contention is that by not wearing it...you can't compete in the sport?
> 
> You are against change in the system of Judo. I am going to assume by your name that you are not Japanese. Isn't teaching the martial arts to foreigners something that only became really accepted after WW2?
> 
> Respectfully,


Hello IamBaytor,

You're not off base, in fact I appreciate the direct hard question because it facilitates a direct hard response - which leads to the truth.

The Sportification of Judo involves the International Judo Federation modifying the rules of shiai in 1997 to encourage: 1) Attacking Judo, 2) the blue gi to make the referee's job easier, 3) the 'Golden Score' which only encourages more sloppy judo, and, believe it or not, 4) Sports betting. The point of attacking judo is all for the sake of providing entertainment to the ticket buying spectator, not the improvement of judo. This is the prostitution of a martial art. The blue gi represents all the above in my opinion.

Also, now major judo tournaments, such as the 'Nationals' will not allow you to compete unless you have a blue gi! So much for freedom and democracy.

Never have I ever gone to a shiai with the thought of providing entertainment to some spectator! Shiai is technique testing and provides proof of ability, which should reflect in your rank. Not sheer competition to acquire trophies.

The several judo matches on video I observed of the 2004 Olympics in Athens is a case in point, I thought it was a lot of sloppy judo. And the 'sports' announcers all commented on all the empty seats and lack of spectators at the games. TOO BAD!!!

This sportification of judo is leading, as Dr. Kano warned in 1932, to the professionalism of judo (multi-colored sequenced gi's, short-term committments, gambling, and no "mutual benefit & welfare").

So I believe a drastic, but simple, step is required: just don't wear the blue gi!

p.s. Teaching foreigners the martial arts in Japan went back to the 1880's.


----------



## Baytor

Here's what I'm getting from you: 
Blue gi's are the bad color because 1)  causes the judeges to be lazy  2)  it's more entertaining for the masses, and Judo should be about technique not entertainment.

While I can sympathize that you would have to buy another gi, big effing deal.  Do you enjoy Judo?  Then train.  What you wear is irrelevent.  If you really want to go to the tournaments, shell out a few bucks.  If it is as important to you as you say, then what is more important...the few bucks for a blue gi, or the opportunity to train.


----------



## Hollywood1340

ROTFLMAO! And he complains about "Entertainment Judo". This is the best judo entertainment I've had in a looong time.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Here's what I'm getting from you:
> Blue gi's are the bad color because 1) causes the judeges to be lazy 2) it's more entertaining for the masses, and Judo should be about technique not entertainment.
> 
> While I can sympathize that you would have to buy another gi, big effing deal. Do you enjoy Judo? Then train. What you wear is irrelevent. If you really want to go to the tournaments, shell out a few bucks. If it is as important to you as you say, then what is more important...the few bucks for a blue gi, or the opportunity to train.


Hi IamBaytor,

As far as any sport goes, such as baseball or hockey, the color of the uniform means nothing (except for pink maybe): but judo is not a sport, it is a martial art.  If Dr. Kano or the Kodokan wanted to dye the judogi blue, they could have done it a long time ago.

And yes, a judo shiai has absolutely zilch to do with entertainment.

But please read the article: _'The Contribution of Judo to Education'_ by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/kano.htm) and _'On the Importance of Ukemi'_ by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm), before you feign an understanding of judo and dismiss the potential judo disaster the blue gi represents.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi IamBaytor,
> But please read the article: _'The Contribution of Judo to Education'_ by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/kano.htm) and _'On the Importance of Ukemi'_ by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm), before you feign an understanding of judo and dismiss the potential judo disaster the blue gi represents.


Judo Disaster, huh? Okay Mr. Skerry, what is your Judo Education beyond the websites mentioned? You still haven't answered that one. Since you know so much you see.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Judo Disaster, huh? Okay Mr. Skerry, what is your Judo Education beyond the websites mentioned? You still haven't answered that one. Since you know so much you see.


Just out of curiosity Mr. Maxwell, for someone who said he wasn't going to post, why would a practitioner of combat hapikido be so defensive about the distortion of judo competition rules in 1997 to 'sportify' judo by the IJF and the IOC which, in my opinion, the blue gi represents?


----------



## Baytor

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> ROTFLMAO! And he complains about "Entertainment Judo". This is the best judo entertainment I've had in a looong time.


Yup.  Good times.


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> the color of the uniform means nothing (except for pink maybe)


 And what would that mean?


----------



## Andrew Green

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> And what would that mean?


I'd say take it up with Gene Lebell 

My opinion on Gi's - I prefer just about anything over white.  White always ends up looking dirty...

Maybe each club could go with there own team colours, same as in any other sport.  That would definately help out the spectators in being able to tell who is who.

anyways, trolls fed for the day.


----------



## bignick

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Judo Disaster, huh? Okay Mr. Skerry, what is your Judo Education beyond the websites mentioned? You still haven't answered that one. Since you know so much you see.


you still didn't answer this question...i'm curious as well...



			
				 Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> If Dr. Kano or the Kodokan wanted to dye the judogi blue, they could have done it a long time ago.


it most likely would have been cost prohibitive...dyeing a whole gi blue...late 19th century...the gi's were probably still handmade...and most people probably didn't have access to a textile plant to go and dye their gi......yet, kano understood that you need to distinguish between two competitors in a shiai which is why you were the sash...how can you say that if there was an affordable way to dye gi's and make them readily and inexpensively available to the public, Kano wouldn't have done it...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I'd say take it up with Gene Lebell
> 
> My opinion on Gi's - I prefer just about anything over white. White always ends up looking dirty...
> 
> Maybe each club could go with there own team colours, same as in any other sport. That would definately help out the spectators in being able to tell who is who.
> 
> anyways, trolls fed for the day.


When Judo Gene LeBell, the professional wrestler and showman, wore a colored judo gi, it probably had nothing to do with the IJF or shiai.

The only good thing I heard from a judo sandan about the blue gi was that it didn't show the dirt, cause a lot of the guys don't wash their gi's very often.

Jhoon Rhee's Tae Kwon Do competition team in Washington D.C. all wore bright red TKD gi's (?), which was a source of amusement for us judoka's who proudly wore the unassuming white gi.  Team colors are not the way to go.  Besides a troll patch on a gi might be attractive to the mixed martial arts crowd, but not to judo, not yet.  But any sacriledge can happen.


----------



## bignick

I'd like to restate my and other's questions concerning your judo training

and as far as olympic tkd goes...the only uniform allowed is white, you should be looking up to them...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

> and as far as olympic tkd goes...the only uniform allowed is white, you should be looking up to them...


Hi Bignick,

Perhaps I was a bit unclear, I never mentioned Olympic Tae Kwon Do? And yes, I do look up to those Olympic TKD players. And I really admire that the only uniform allowed is white! As it should be.

I think I mentioned Jhoon Rhee's competition team wore bright red TKD gi's (?) in Washington D.C. and how that really wouldn't go very well for judo. Yet with the forced introduction of the stupid blue judo suit in 1997 by the facist International Judo Federation, the 'camel's nose is well into the tent' and soon there will be silver and gold latex judo suits with bright sprinkles and go-go girls holding up place cards for screaming fans to spill beer and throw flounders onto the tatami's - just like in a sports stadium (or hockey rink).

And just as there are baseball purists who do not attend big league baseball, but prefer to watch the minor league farm teams play 'real' baseball, there will develop the Kodokan Judo tournaments, totally unaffiliated with the USJA, USJF, USJI, IJF, or the IOC, with white gi's only competing in good stand up judo the way Dr. Jigoro Kano meant it to be practiced - 'real' judo, not the garbage found in the Olympics.


----------



## Baytor

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> there will be silver and gold latex judo suits with bright sprinkles and go-go girls holding up place cards


go go girls?  SWEET!:uhyeah:


----------



## Baytor




----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

>


*THE FUTURE OF JUDO!  *Dr. Jigoro Kano is doing ukemi in his grave.


----------



## Feisty Mouse

That's one of the cuter trolls.  I've seen some pretty bad ones.... 


like these.


----------



## bignick

feisty...iambaytor....i think your subtlety is lost...but i sure enjoyed it


----------



## Baytor

Happy to oblige...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

The 1997 adoption of the baby blue gi by the International Judo Federation, which almost caused a walk-out by the All Japan Judo Association, represents the lowering of standards of international judo competition. 

The forced sportification of judo, which the inane blue gi represents, includes rule changes encouraging attacking judo for mere entertainment; the 'Golden Score' which decides a tie with sudden death overtime, with either a penalty or the lowest score deciding the match; the introduction of the blue gi to make the lazy referee's job easier and to provide eye-candy to ticket buying spectators.

All the above is causing international judo to drift from Dr. Kano's original intention of what judo was meant to provide: "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" and the "harmonious development and eventual perfection of human character".


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> feisty...iambaytor....i think your subtlety is lost...but i sure enjoyed it


More like off topic.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> More like off topic.


not if you get it


----------



## Baytor

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> the introduction of the blue gi to make the lazy referee's job easier and to provide eye-candy to ticket buying spectators.


Patrick,
Can you really call loose fitting clothes like a gi "eye candy"?  :uhyeah:


----------



## Patrick Skerry

> it most likely would have been cost prohibitive...dyeing a whole gi blue...late 19th century...the gi's were probably still handmade...and most people probably didn't have access to a textile plant to go and dye their gi......yet, kano understood that you need to distinguish between two competitors in a shiai which is why you were the sash...how can you say that if there was an affordable way to dye gi's and make them readily and inexpensively available to the public, Kano wouldn't have done it...


bignick,

Are you aware that for several hundred years the Japanese were famous for their indigo (blue) dyes?  And that blue was the most common color dyed into Japanese textiles, from curtains to hakamas to kendo-gi's?

Dr. Kano chose the white gi for his good reasons, and the Kodokan and the AJJF have maintained those standards for good reasons, it is highly presumptuous for the IJF to change judo into their own image.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Patrick,
> Can you really call loose fitting clothes like a gi "eye candy"? :uhyeah:


Actually, the IJF standard for the competition judo gi is anything but 'loose fitting', they are more closely fitting than the Japanese judo gi.  And yes, I think the blue gi contributes also to spectator enjoyment.  At least that is what Jimmy Pedro, Jr. told me about judo in Germany.


----------



## bignick

:feedtroll  


i'm out....it's been fun though


----------



## Feisty Mouse

"Patrick"

Aside from the fact that you are ignoring a multitude of questions that have been asked you directly, it's difficult to have a conversation when you use words like:

"highly presumptuous"

"the inane blue gi"

"the stupid blue judo suit in 1997 by the facist International Judo Federation"

and so forth - there are better ones further back.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> :feedtroll
> 
> 
> i'm out....it's been fun though


Again?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> "Patrick"
> 
> Aside from the fact that you are ignoring a multitude of questions that have been asked you directly, it's difficult to have a conversation when you use words like:
> 
> "highly presumptuous"
> 
> "the inane blue gi"
> 
> "the stupid blue judo suit in 1997 by the facist International Judo Federation"
> 
> and so forth - there are better ones further back.


Hi Feisty,

Why is it difficult to have a conversation?  It would be great if you, or anyone on this thread, can justify the introduction of the blue judo gi, and the reasons for it, by the IJF in 1997?

So far, all my valid reasons posted have been ignored, and I've received a lot of unenlightened emotionalisms instead of strong arguments in support of the blue gi?

The Japanese hate it, the All Japan Judo Federation despise it, and I have spoken to several older (45+) and experienced judo players and sensei's who don't like it a bit.

But on this particular thread, nothing but silliness and generalizations by people who don't appear to have a very strong background in judo.

I would love to read your opinions, for or against, the blue judo gi?!

Thanx!

Yours in Judo,


----------



## Baytor

I think most people don't care about the color of their gi.  I think most people here are more interested in what's inside (knowledge, training, ect) than what color clothes they're wearing.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> I think most people don't care about the color of their gi. I think most people here are more interested in what's inside (knowledge, training, ect) than what color clothes they're wearing.


If it were only that simple in judo.  The blue judo gi represents a lot of bad reasoning on behalf of the International Judo Federation, they really had no right to introduce a blue gi without a lot of input from judoka.

Now options have been removed, in major point or national tournaments, if you refuse to wear a blue gi, you don't compete.  That is going to alienate a lot of good judo players.  Judo is being twisted into something it is not - a sport, and the blue gi represents this transmorgrification.

What I really get a kick out of, is that since the blue judo gi is still kind of rare, if a large club shows up to a big tournament, and not all of the players have enough blue gi's, they are given a 'blue sash' or blue obi to wear.  So why get rid of the red sash in the first place?  The blue gi is totally unnecessary.


----------



## MichiganTKD

Patrick.

I, for one, admire your courage and principles in defending your belief. Judo and the martial arts need more people like you. I don't practice judo myself. But if I did, I would NEVER wear a blue uniform. I don't beleve for a second Kano would have approved it, and yes it does matter.
As a Tae Kwon Do practitioner, I deal with people who think black, blue, red, and multicolored uniforms are perfectly acceptable. They are not. They are, as you say, abominations promoted by low class "Instructors" to gullible students to make them feel cool. Name me one student whose technique and ability improved because of a blue, red, or black uniform? You can't do it.
Why does someone want a black, blue, or American-flag uniform? because it looks cool. In other words, to satiate their ego. Something against what traditional martial arts stands for.
You ever notice how many people in black uniforms think martial arts are just about hitting people?


----------



## Shogun

Blue Keikogi are traditional in several styles. Kendo especially. They are also used in the olympics. I dont beleive the bright ones should be used, though.

Black, as well.


----------



## MichiganTKD

I know Kendo uses blue uniforms. Don't think that would be a problem if Kendo ever joined the Olympics. I think Patrick is upset because the blue dogi was used to enhance TV visibility and make judo more "cool".

However, if people began wearing red Kendo uniforms that would be a problem since red is not a traditional kendo color.


----------



## Baytor

Michigan TKD,

I wear a black gi, but I know martial arts are not about hitting people, it's about *throwing* them. 

I wear black because that's my school's uniform.  I would prefer to wear blue jeans and a t shirt.  Why?  Because that's what I normally wear.


----------



## MichiganTKD

Quick question:

In the Karate Kid, when traditional Mr. Miyagi gave Daniel-san his gi as a gift, what color was it?

If judo gis were traditionally blue, that would be one thing. It is quite another to wear a blue gi because you think it is a neat color and makes you look competent.
Same with colored Tae Kwon Do uniforms. Traditionally they were white. Colored uniforms were introduced later to increase the excitement aspect and make people feel "cool" about practicing. If I want cool, I'll live in Alaska. Similar to a school dress code. Schools have them to remind students that they are there to learn, not impress people with fancy clothes.


----------



## Baytor

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Quick question:
> 
> In the Karate Kid, when traditional Mr. Miyagi gave Daniel-san his gi as a gift, what color was it?
> 
> If judo gis were traditionally blue, that would be one thing. It is quite another to wear a blue gi because you think it is a neat color and makes you look competent.  Same with colored Tae Kwon Do uniforms. Traditionally they were white. Colored uniforms were introduced later to increase the excitement aspect and make people feel "cool" about practicing. If I want cool, I'll live in Alaska. Similar to a school dress code. Schools have them to remind students that they are there to learn, not impress people with fancy clothes.


I agree with part of this. People can also wear white gis to make themselves look more traditional and feel morally superior to "the sellouts". I'm not making acusations that anyone does this, just saying that people can do that too. In my opinion, with my limited experience, I would imagine that having competitors wear different colors would make the judges job easier.

If someone really needs a uniform to remind themselves that they are trying to learn, I personally must question that student's dedication to training. I have a question for you...You live in Michigan right? Isn't it cool enough outside without having to go to Alaska? Your 3 weeks of summer should be just about over.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Patrick.
> 
> I, for one, admire your courage and principles in defending your belief. Judo and the martial arts need more people like you. I don't practice judo myself. But if I did, I would NEVER wear a blue uniform. I don't beleve for a second Kano would have approved it, and yes it does matter.
> As a Tae Kwon Do practitioner, I deal with people who think black, blue, red, and multicolored uniforms are perfectly acceptable. They are not. They are, as you say, abominations promoted by low class "Instructors" to gullible students to make them feel cool. Name me one student whose technique and ability improved because of a blue, red, or black uniform? You can't do it.
> Why does someone want a black, blue, or American-flag uniform? because it looks cool. In other words, to satiate their ego. Something against what traditional martial arts stands for.
> You ever notice how many people in black uniforms think martial arts are just about hitting people?


Hello Michigan TKD,

Thank you for an objective opinion.  I'm glad to hear from a non-judo person.  The inclusion of the blue gi in judo has an ulterior motive: to make the job easier for the referee, to make the gi less glaring to the T.V. cameras, and to twist judo into a $port$ for all those tickety buying spectators.  This does not help the art or judo or improve it.

I feel the same way about colored gi's in other disciplines, but it is none of my business what the karate or TKD people wear, but I think it should be white.  The gawdy red-white-and-blue, scarlet red, or a color not found in nature gi's are offensive and doesn't make one punch or kick any better -  it is ego stroking plain and simple.  We don't need that in judo.

So Michigan TKD, I totally agree with your opinon and thank's for your input.


----------



## Andrew Green

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> People can also wear white gis to make themselves look more traditional and feel morally superior to "the sellouts".


Yup, most of the people that object very strongly to any changes in there "traditional art" do this.  Hold on to things for no reason other then to show the world how superior they are to those that have changed their art. 

If you really think about it, white is kinda a silly colour to make a uniform in a contact sport where people get cuts and nose bleeds and you spend much time rolling around on the ground.

How is "I like blue, so I'll get a blue uniform" bad when:

"I want to show everyone that I am a traditional martial artist, that hasn't given into modern evils effecting the martial arts, so I will wear white and take shoots at anyone who doesn't.  And I am also going to pay $300 to have a Japanese label on mine, so that everyone knows how dedicated I am." is a perfectly acceptable thing.


----------



## Baytor

Ok, I shall now use my great intellect and logic to explain to all why blue an red gis are bad.  I'm sorry for doubting earlier, but there is no escaping these facts.

IF:
gi = blue
blue = hypothermia
hypothermia = kills people
Therefore, logically, if you wear a blue gi, you are likely to KILL PEOPLE!

gi = blue
blue = depressed
Hitler = suffered from depression
Therefore, logically, if you wear a blue gi, YOU ARE THE REINCARNATION OF HITLER!

gi = red
red = the bad color
the bad color = must be hidden
Therefore, logically, if you wear a red gi, you will attract THOSE WHO WE DON'T SPEAK OF!

If a woman = the weight of a duck = she's made of wood = she will burn = therefore, A WITCH!


----------



## Patrick Skerry

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Quick question:
> 
> In the Karate Kid, when traditional Mr. Miyagi gave Daniel-san his gi as a gift, what color was it?
> 
> If judo gis were traditionally blue, that would be one thing. It is quite another to wear a blue gi because you think it is a neat color and makes you look competent.
> Same with colored Tae Kwon Do uniforms. Traditionally they were white. Colored uniforms were introduced later to increase the excitement aspect and make people feel "cool" about practicing. If I want cool, I'll live in Alaska. Similar to a school dress code. Schools have them to remind students that they are there to learn, not impress people with fancy clothes.


People seem to forget, that if Dr. Kano wanted blue gi's in the first place, he would have done so.  The Japanese were famous for their indigo blues, and lots of Japanese textiles were dyed various shades of blue.  But Dr. Kano specifically chose not to do that to judo gi's.  And there is no real good reason to do it now.


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> The inclusion of the blue gi in judo has an ulterior motive: to make the job easier for the referee, to make the gi less glaring to the T.V. cameras, and to twist judo into a $port$ for all those tickety buying spectators. This does not help the art or judo or improve it.
> 
> I feel the same way about colored gi's in other disciplines, but it is none of my business what the karate or TKD people wear, but I think it should be white. The gawdy red-white-and-blue, scarlet red, or a color not found in nature gi's are offensive and doesn't make one punch or kick any better - it is ego stroking plain and simple. We don't need that in judo.


OK, so, your basic arguments are:

judo should not be a sport, or sportified (although it seems clear that you are also saying it already *has* become a sport in several venues)

therefore it should not be in the Olympics or shown on TV, or shown at large events where people will buy tickets, because this is encourgaing judo as a sport, rather than a martial art, and in part because

due to lazy modern judges and/or the TV cameras, the blue gi is being introduced

therefore the blue gi is a symbol of everything that is wrong (in your mind) with judo today.

Again, while the blue gi represents these things to you, I think that there is nothing *in and of itself* that a uniform color change should matter. If you are hanging on to the traditional white because it makes you feel more genuine, that is one thing. But it does not mean that people who wear different colors are necessarily thinking, "Look at me, I'm so kewl". And if they are, so what? They will find out on the mat or training floor how "kewl" they really are. Who cares if someone is flashy? It shouldn't affect *your* practice.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> OK, so, your basic arguments are:
> 
> judo should not be a sport, or sportified (although it seems clear that you are also saying it already *has* become a sport in several venues)
> 
> therefore it should not be in the Olympics or shown on TV, or shown at large events where people will buy tickets, because this is encourgaing judo as a sport, rather than a martial art, and in part because
> 
> due to lazy modern judges and/or the TV cameras, the blue gi is being introduced
> 
> therefore the blue gi is a symbol of everything that is wrong (in your mind) with judo today.
> 
> Again, while the blue gi represents these things to you, I think that there is nothing *in and of itself* that a uniform color change should matter. If you are hanging on to the traditional white because it makes you feel more genuine, that is one thing. But it does not mean that people who wear different colors are necessarily thinking, "Look at me, I'm so kewl". And if they are, so what? They will find out on the mat or training floor how "kewl" they really are. Who cares if someone is flashy? It shouldn't affect *your* practice.


Hi Fiesty,

As a civilian walking down the street, it really doesn't matter what color clothes you wear, different strokes for different folks.  But that doesn't really apply to either a uniform or to judo.

Again, Dr. Kano had the option of using a blue gi in his day which he did not utilize.  Indigo blue textiles were famous in Japan, yet Dr. Kano kept the judo gi white, while other martial arts, such as kendo, dyed their gi's blue or black.  That's good for them, but the founder of judo did not - he kept the gi pure and white, a symbol of simplicity and maximum efficiency.

The IJF in 1997 instituted some very controversial rule changes to judo, so controversial that it almost caused a walk-out by the All Japan Judo Federation.  In fact, there are no blue gi's used in any AFFJ sanctioned judo tournaments in Japan to this day, in defiance of the IJF.  One of those more controversial rule changes was the inclusion of the blue gi - utterly ridiculous and unnecessary.

The practice of judo is as much a spiritual endeavour as it is a physical one, which is why Dr. Kano used a Buddhist term, 'dojo' to describe a judo practice hall as, a place of enlightenment.  Dr. Kano insisted that the daily practice of judo contributed to the 'eventual perfection and ultimate development of human character', which he claimed took place during randori.  That is why Dr. Kano prescribed randori as 80% of judo training (the other ratio being: kata 17% and shiai 3%).

The inclusion of the blue gi in judo is equally as incongruous as an orthodox rabbi wearing plaid or a Roman Catholic priest wearing pastels during services.  There is something lost in the translation.

The blue gi is the physical representation with what is wrong with today's 'modern' judo.


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> Roman Catholic priest wearing pastels during services


 I've seen it.    It was at first a bit odd, and then I got back to the service.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Man, I'm getting trashed here! Drink up! Oh new addition to the drinking game:
1 Drink everytime  a"$" is used in place of an "s"


----------



## MichiganTKD

Patrick,

Good point. Just because you can doesn't mean you should, to paraphrase "Jurassic Park". In our fast paced, materialistic, go-go world, everyone tries to outdo each other with the biggest car, highest paying job, fanciest clothes. That has, unfortunately, filtered down to many aspects of martial arts practice. A simple white uniform is not good enough. To make me stand out I have to have a blue, black, red, gold lame, or American flag styled uniform. Why? What purpose do they serve? Excitement? If you want excitement, practice until you are the most exciting person who ever stepped out on a mat. 
It is my belief that Instructors who advocate colored uniforms, whether judo or any other style, do so because they are weak or poor instructors and this is how they keep students' interested. My rule of thumb: The fancier the uniform, the worse the technique and manners.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Patrick,
> 
> Good point. Just because you can doesn't mean you should, to paraphrase "Jurassic Park". In our fast paced, materialistic, go-go world, everyone tries to outdo each other with the biggest car, highest paying job, fanciest clothes. That has, unfortunately, filtered down to many aspects of martial arts practice. A simple white uniform is not good enough. To make me stand out I have to have a blue, black, red, gold lame, or American flag styled uniform. Why? What purpose do they serve? Excitement? If you want excitement, practice until you are the most exciting person who ever stepped out on a mat.
> It is my belief that Instructors who advocate colored uniforms, whether judo or any other style, do so because they are weak or poor instructors and this is how they keep students' interested. My rule of thumb: The fancier the uniform, the worse the technique and manners.


Then that probably explains the rude hecklers defending the baby blue gi on this forum, they are exhibiting a serious castration complex.


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> Then that probably explains the rude hecklers defending the baby blue gi on this forum, they are exhibiting a serious castration complex.


Including the women?!?!

Step off.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Including the women?!?!
> 
> Step off.


No, penis envy.


----------



## Hollywood1340

I'm black, and that's all I have to say


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> No, penis envy.


 Oh, you are my new pet troll!  How did you know the words women love to hear?!?  So impressive.  And so relevant to explaining your obsession with uniform color.  *That* must be why I don't agree with you!  Wow.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> No, penis envy.


what's to envy


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Oh, you are my new pet troll! How did you know the words women love to hear?!? So impressive. And so relevant to explaining your obsession with uniform color. *That* must be why I don't agree with you! Wow.


I apologize to you Feisty Mouse, I thought you were a mature worldly martial artist capable of understanding Freudian terminology in an objective and detached manner.


----------



## Feisty Mouse

Indeed, I am a scientist very familiar with Freudian terminology, and its many meanings. I am also a woman who understands that to tell someone they have penis envy or a castration complex because they disagree with you or ask you to back up your arguments is taking the conversation down several notches and is insulting.  

You are one to talk, calling a different colored gi an "abomination"!  lol!

Is this how you intend to further your arguments, and the art/sport of Judo, with snide comments? I know that if an instructor made insulting and derogatory remarks like that in a studio, representing his or her art, they wouldn't have students very soon.  

But here I go, being baited by trolls again!


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Indeed, I am a scientist very familiar with Freudian terminology, and its many meanings. I am also a woman who understands that to tell someone they have penis envy or a castration complex because they disagree with you or ask you to back up your arguments is taking the conversation down several notches and is insulting.
> 
> You are one to talk, calling a different colored gi an "abomination"! lol!
> 
> Is this how you intend to further your arguments, and the art/sport of Judo, with snide comments? I know that if an instructor made insulting and derogatory remarks like that in a studio, representing his or her art, they wouldn't have students very soon.
> 
> But here I go, being baited by trolls again!


Please search through this Kodokan website and try and find anywhere a blue gi?        http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/02kagami_j.html

The Japanese do not use the blue gi abomination on their native soil.


----------



## bignick

http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/99wcphotos_j.html

enough said


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/99wcphotos_j.html
> 
> enough said



These photos are from the World Championships?

The World Championships  are an IJF sanctioned event.  I've already established that the Japanese only wear the blue gi in international events.  Why are you wasting your self with this truism?

Show me an AJJF sanctioned event in Japan were the blue gi is worn in competition?  

Nice effort though, I've seen those pictures before.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Please search through this Kodokan website and try and find anywhere a blue gi? http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/02kagami_j.html
> 
> The Japanese do not use the blue gi abomination on their native soil.


you wanted pictures of the blue gi on the kodokan website and you've got them...


----------



## auxprix

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Patrick.
> 
> I, for one, admire your courage and principles in defending your belief. Judo and the martial arts need more people like you. I don't practice judo myself. But if I did, I would NEVER wear a blue uniform. I don't beleve for a second Kano would have approved it, and yes it does matter.
> As a Tae Kwon Do practitioner, I deal with people who think black, blue, red, and multicolored uniforms are perfectly acceptable. They are not. They are, as you say, abominations promoted by low class "Instructors" to gullible students to make them feel cool. Name me one student whose technique and ability improved because of a blue, red, or black uniform? You can't do it.
> Why does someone want a black, blue, or American-flag uniform? because it looks cool. In other words, to satiate their ego. Something against what traditional martial arts stands for.
> You ever notice how many people in black uniforms think martial arts are just about hitting people?


TKD:

If this sounds harsh, I appologize, but I can't think of any other way to say it. I don't mean any disrespect, but here it is:

Because you don't practice Judo, or know too much about it, you do not understand exactly what the blue gi is about. You are being mislead by someone who is clearly nuts. The blue gi is not a 'Macho' issue, like you think the black gi is. It's about being able to distinguish between two Judoka, especially in world champianships. It also makes it easier to make out what is happening when the players get close, especially on the ground. It is sometimes impossible to make out who's leg is who's in still-shots if there isn't a blue gi.

So, yes, the blue gi is for the practitioner. It is a recent innovation to our Art. But 'Patrick' says that it is the begining of the end, which it clearly isn't. Judo's been changing throughout its history, and this is just another way it does so.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

auxprix said:
			
		

> TKD:
> 
> If this sounds harsh, I appologize, but I can't think of any other way to say it. I don't mean any disrespect, but here it is:
> 
> Because you don't practice Judo, or know too much about it, you do not understand exactly what the blue gi is about. You are being mislead by someone who is clearly nuts. The blue gi is not a 'Macho' issue, like you think the black gi is. It's about being able to distinguish between two Judoka, especially in world champianships. It also makes it easier to make out what is happening when the players get close, especially on the ground. It is sometimes impossible to make out who's leg is who's in still-shots if there isn't a blue gi.
> 
> So, yes, the blue gi is for the practitioner. It is a recent innovation to our Art. But 'Patrick' says that it is the begining of the end, which it clearly isn't. Judo's been changing throughout its history, and this is just another way it does so.


Yes, judo has been changing through out history, the somboists have changed it, the free style wrestlers have changed it, the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu people are changing it, yet Kodokan judo remains relatively stable.

Any variation of Kodokan judo tends to be carefully scrutinized by the Kodokan, to insure the integrity of judo.  The euphemism of 'enhancement' and 'evolution' to indicate improvement in judo is just so much sophistic relativism.  Kodokan judo is fine the way it is and needs no improvement by outsiders, like the IJF changing the rules to $portify judo.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> IJF changing the rules to $portify judo.



for those that are still keeping score...that's like 4 drinks right there


----------



## Feisty Mouse

Good - I need a drink!  

As an aside - since when did restating a belief become a discussion?  It seems to be spreading throughout the forums....


----------



## auxprix

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Yes, judo has been changing through out history, the somboists have changed it, the free style wrestlers have changed it, the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu people are changing it, yet Kodokan judo remains relatively stable.
> 
> Any variation of Kodokan judo tends to be carefully scrutinized by the Kodokan, to insure the integrity of judo. The euphemism of 'enhancement' and 'evolution' to indicate improvement in judo is just so much sophistic relativism. Kodokan judo is fine the way it is and needs no improvement by outsiders, like the IJF changing the rules to $portify judo.


 
I see very few people in the US getting rich off Judo. Even the greats, like Pedro, aren't making much off of it. If the motivation for sportifying Judo (oh, sorry, $portifying. How cleaver and origional.) is money, they are failing miserably.


----------



## bignick

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> As an aside - since when did restating a belief become a discussion? It seems to be spreading throughout the forums....


Ya see feisty, when these lil' critters get cornered they can get a bit crotchety...so what they'll do is fall back on main theme of tha post...and accuse us 'unters of 'etting off topic


----------



## Patrick Skerry

auxprix said:
			
		

> I see very few people in the US getting rich off Judo. Even the greats, like Pedro, aren't making much off of it. If the motivation for sportifying Judo (oh, sorry, $portifying. How cleaver and origional.) is money, they are failing miserably.


The money made in the $portification of judo is not for the players themselves, but like at any $ports event here in the U.S., the money made is attracting ticket buying spectators and in the concensions: they charge like $5 a beer and $3 a hotdog in Fenway park to watch a professional baseball game.  The same reason to $portify judo, to attract a lot of money.


----------



## Andrew Green

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> The money made in the $portification of judo is not for the players themselves, but like at any $ports event here in the U.S., the money made is attracting ticket buying spectators and in the concensions: they charge like $5 a beer and $3 a hotdog in Fenway park to watch a professional baseball game. The same reason to $portify judo, to attract a lot of money.


LOL - Are you serious?

The purpose of the blue gi is to sell Beer and hot dogs.  Now I've heard it all...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> LOL - Are you serious?
> 
> The purpose of the blue gi is to sell Beer and hot dogs. Now I've heard it all...


No, the $portification of judo is to sell beer, hotdogs, tickets, and judo merchandise, the blue gi is just one of many steps taken by the IJF to insure that process.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> No, the $portification of judo is to sell beer, hotdogs, tickets, and judo merchandise, the blue gi is just one of many steps taken by the IJF to *insure* that process.


what are they insuring? how much does it cost to take out a policy on a blue gi?


----------



## Baytor

It costs YOUR SOUL, Nick.


----------



## bignick

hahahaha...of course, but i wonder what it pays out if the gi is lost or stolen...hopefully they replace it with another one of those blue abominations


----------



## Baytor

First, you must realize that to insure an abomination with your soul, you form a pact with an oni (japanese demon).  The oni infuses the gi with demonic power, allowing you to win the golden score easier.

If a blue gi is lost or stolen, it the oni posesses the thief and controls him.  As the thief has no pact with the oni, the oni is free to do as he would like.  Most oni enjoy karreoke and foofy drinks.  The thief gets so embarrased from continually singing "Barbi Girl" that he eventually kills himself.  The blue abomination then is magically returned to the true owners doorstep.

So it is written, so it shall be.


----------



## bignick

there is wisdom and truth in your words...:asian:


----------



## Shogun

> However, if people began wearing red Kendo uniforms that would be a problem since red is not a traditional kendo color.


As far as I know, red is only traditional in one (ok, 9) system(s). Traditionally, Ninja would wear a EXTREMELY dark red Hakama and jacket. this would not only reduce moonlight visibility, but make the Ninja appear even more superhuman, in case of an injury, blood would not appear on the clothing.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Shogun said:
			
		

> As far as I know, red is only traditional in one (ok, 9) system(s). Traditionally, Ninja would wear a EXTREMELY dark red Hakama and jacket. this would not only reduce moonlight visibility, but make the Ninja appear even more superhuman, in case of an injury, blood would not appear on the clothing.


What would the ninja wear for the blood issue during the winter months when they were stalking around in a white ninja suit?


----------



## Shogun

Don't know......pink......jk


----------



## Andrew Green

Ninja's hybernate all winter... sheesh... do some research already 

I mean how else could they go the rest of the year without ever sleeping?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

It appears I am not alone in my opinion of the blue judo gi:

http://www.oishi-judo.com/BLUE%20JUDOGI.htm

I found this over at judoinfo.com


----------



## Hollywood1340

I belive that is one drink for atting an HTML link. Oh, has someone mentioned to a mod about this...."Patrick". IF I remember right, multiple sign ups violate the MA user code.


----------



## bignick

also...that's not from judo info...that's from a different site...

and this is from another post of his



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Welcome to the judo forum. I am also fairly new to computers, the electronics revolution by-passed me. So its tough for me to make replys with this thing.



how many "19" year olds that missed out on the electronic revolution?
there are probably rules for providing false information too...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

> how many "19" year olds that missed out on the electronic revolution?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About as many as who never heard of either judo or a blue gi!
Click to expand...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> I belive that is one drink for atting an HTML link. Oh, has someone mentioned to a mod about this...."Patrick". IF I remember right, multiple sign ups violate the MA user code.



I suppose doing research over the internet is also a violation of the MA user code?  Then sharing relevant information with MA another violation?  The identifying your source of information a third violation?

And what in the world is "atting an HTML link." ?


----------



## Hollywood1340

Yes was been mispelInG. It should be "adding". And that wasn't the issue I had mentioned "Patrick". It was your "Who Am I" complex that was revealed ealier in this thread.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Yes was been mispelInG. It should be "adding". And that wasn't the issue I had mentioned "Patrick". It was your "Who Am I" complex that was revealed ealier in this thread.


The issue is remaining on topic with this thread, so to steer you back to relevancy, what do you think of this link?:

http://www.oishi-judo.com/BLUE%20JUDOGI.htm

Once again, it seems I am not alone in my disdane for the blue gi abberation!


----------



## bignick

first off all...that list is not too serious and the "top 10 reasons" and they list 25?...i'd like to think most judoka can count...1 blue gi, 2 blue gi, 3 blue gi, 4 blue gi....


----------



## Feisty Mouse

That list is very funny, and not at all serious.  Maybe a little bitter.  You know people are being serious when they mention Smurfs!  lol


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> first off all...that list is not too serious and the "top 10 reasons" and they list 25?...i'd like to think most judoka can count...1 blue gi, 2 blue gi, 3 blue gi, 4 blue gi....


Read it more closely, he gives a reason why he ran over the ten!


----------



## bignick

but was evidently too lazy to change the title?


----------



## Baytor

I could make a comment about people who think that, "If it ain't white, it ain't right."  But I'll refrain.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> I could make a comment about people who think that, "If it ain't white, it ain't right." But I'll refrain.


Don't anthropomorphize!


----------



## Baytor

But Patrick, by discribing a blue gi as an abomination, isn't that what you do?


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IamBaytor*
> _I could make a comment about people who think that, "If it ain't white, it ain't right." But I'll refrain._
> 
> 
> Don't anthropomorphize!


 :roflmao: 

Yes, "Patrick", treating you like a person, rather than a troll, may be a grave error!


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> But Patrick, by discribing a blue gi as an abomination, isn't that what you do?


No.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> :roflmao:
> 
> Yes, "Patrick", treating you like a person, rather than a troll, may be a grave error!


That would be treating a troll as a person to be the anthropomorphic fallacy in logic.


----------



## Baytor

Yes.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Yes.


Thank you IamBaytor for agreeing with me!


----------



## Baytor

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> No.


Sorry, I was responding to this.  Looks like you posted again before I did, hence the appearance of agreeing with you on this issue.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Sorry, I was responding to this. Looks like you posted again before I did, hence the appearance of agreeing with you on this issue.


I don't believe you!  You were really agreeing with me on my position towards the imposement of the blue gi on judoka's by the dictatorial IJF.


----------



## Baytor

Don't worry Patrick, I know you'll believe whatever you choose to, no matter what the evidence.

Now, I would like to know something.  Why is it that my statement was considered "anthropomorphizing" and yours was not?


----------



## bignick

because he didn't like your statement


----------



## Baytor

Do we score a point off Hollywood's drinking game based on that?:cheers:


----------



## bignick

yes...actually...pretty much every word he types counts...


----------



## Baytor

Patrick, just in case you forgot...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

> Now, I would like to know something. Why is it that my statement was considered "anthropomorphizing" and yours was not?


Hi IamBaytor:

The Anthropomorphic fallacy in logic is to attribute human qualities to either animals or material objects.  To prefer a white gi over a blue gi, or to claim the superiority of a white gi is nothing more than that.  The mere suggestion or entailment of a human connotation to a white gi is committing the anthropomorphic fallacy.  So don't anthropomorphasize.  

It is my opinion that the blue gi is an abomination, no human qualities are prescribed.  No anthropomophic inuendoes or suppositions in that opinion.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Patrick, just in case you forgot...


*WHO COULD FORGET THE FACE OF SPORT JUDO?*


----------



## bignick

you could forget that your a troll and the novelty of playing with you is running really thin....


----------



## auxprix

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi IamBaytor:
> 
> The Anthropomorphic fallacy in logic is to attribute human qualities to either animals or material objects. To prefer a white gi over a blue gi, or to claim the superiority of a white gi is nothing more than that. The mere suggestion or entailment of a human connotation to a white gi is committing the anthropomorphic fallacy. So don't anthropomorphasize.
> 
> It is my opinion that the blue gi is an abomination, no human qualities are prescribed. No anthropomophic inuendoes or suppositions in that opinion.


New game: Drink everytime Skerry writes 'Anthropomorphic'


----------



## bignick

and tries to pretend he's not a troll...:burp:

drink up


----------



## auxprix

bignick said:
			
		

> and tries to pretend he's not a troll...:burp:
> 
> drink up


 
Hey, slow down there, big guy. The point of drinking games is to get drunk, not to get liver damage and a habitual drinking problem. If I were to drink at the level you suggest, I would be dead within the hour.


----------



## bignick

that's the point...i was hoping "patrick" was playing along


----------



## Feisty Mouse

:lol:  :cheers:


----------



## Baytor

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi IamBaytor:
> 
> The Anthropomorphic fallacy in logic is to attribute human qualities to either animals or material objects. To prefer a white gi over a blue gi, or to claim the superiority of a white gi is nothing more than that. The mere suggestion or entailment of a human connotation to a white gi is committing the anthropomorphic fallacy. So don't anthropomorphasize.
> 
> It is my opinion that the blue gi is an abomination, no human qualities are prescribed. No anthropomophic inuendoes or suppositions in that opinion.


I still fail to see how I'm the one anthropomorphizing here.  

From Dictionary.com-
Abomination:
 1: a person who is loathsome or disgusting 2: hate coupled with disgust [syn: abhorrence, detestation, execration, loathing, odium] 3: an action that is vicious or vile; an action that arouses disgust or abhorence; "his treatment of the children is an abomination"


----------



## Baytor

I know, I know...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> I know, I know...


*'OH MY GOD' - IT'S WEARING A BLUE GI!*


----------



## bignick

drink


----------



## Baytor

Still waiting for an answer to my question.  How is calling a blue gi an abomination not anthropomorphizing?


----------



## Kenpodoc

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Still waiting for an answer to my question.  How is calling a blue gi an abomination not anthropomorphizing?


You have not yet seen the light.  The Blue Gi is just one more example of the moral decay of American Society.  First pornography, then gay marraige and now the BLUE GI. Arguing with a true believer is always fruitless. 

Jeff


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Still waiting for an answer to my question. How is calling a blue gi an abomination not anthropomorphizing?


Because I wasn't giving a blue gi human qualities, that is why.  The adjective 'abomination' is used to describe any grotesque abnormality, it is not delegated only to humans.  Try looking it up in Fowlers, OED, Websters, Funk & Wagnall's, American Collegiate dictionaries, or any of the myriad dictionaries floating around in your local library.


----------



## Baytor

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> I could make a comment about people who think that, "If it ain't white, it ain't right." But I'll refrain.


I'm willing to accept that there is more than one way to define abomination.  However, there is still this:  
Abomination:
1: a person who is loathsome or disgusting

By the way, how is it that my statement was anthropomorphizing?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

1: a person who is loathsome or disgusting

I cannot find this in three dictionaries I have just reviewed.


----------



## Baytor

www.dictionary.com

or, more directly

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abomination

It comes from the following source:
 WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University.

As I said, I can accept that there is more than one definition, but my question stands. How was my statement anthropomorphizing?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> www.dictionary.com
> 
> or, more directly
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abomination
> 
> It comes from the following source:
> WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University.
> 
> As I said, I can accept that there is more than one definition, but my question stands. How was my statement anthropomorphizing?


I made an assumption that you were interpreting my white gi preference along racist lines, which I took offense and puzzlement, since a bleached white gi has nothing to do with human skin color; and I am not a racist in any sense of the word.  You were also very off topic.  So by the rules of Parlimentary debate - I win!  White gi's rule!!!


----------



## Baytor

I see.  You assumed that I was comparing you to intollerant, ignorant, sad little minded humans.  What I was really compaing you to intollerant and inflexible people who think that they are better than others becuase of what they wear, rather than how they train.  Oh yeah, and I think you are a troll.


----------



## bignick

haha...he certainly is aim for the golden troll award...

now...just wait for his comment about "SPORT JUDO!!!"


----------



## Baytor

Maybe it will be something like

"BEHOLD, THE TROPHY OF BLUE GI WEARING SPORT JUDOKAS!"

Either way, we get to drink.:cheers:

EDIT:  Just found this on Fox news.  This is seriously messed up, but made me think of the drinking game.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132764,00.html


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> I see. You assumed that I was comparing you to intollerant, ignorant, sad little minded humans. What I was really compaing you to intollerant and inflexible people who think that they are better than others becuase of what they wear, rather than how they train. Oh yeah, and I think you are a troll.


*THE FUTURE GOLD MEDAL IN OLYMPICS FOR SPORT JUDO!*


----------



## bignick

drink


----------



## Baytor

Man, I was way off!:drinkbeer


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Man, I was way off!:drinkbeer


_As usual._


----------



## Feisty Mouse

:cheers: Another one, gentlemen?


----------



## Baytor

As long as Patrick is buying.  Patrick, I hereby dub thee...

BEER TROLL!


----------

