# MA's That Are Easy on the Knees?



## Yeti (Aug 9, 2007)

I've seen a lot of posts in different threads recently dealing with knees and knee pain. I know a lot of the answers I'll be seeking in this thread are found somewhere in MT-land, but I thought given the resurgence of the question, I'd try to consolidate the answers into one location. So...with that...

Which martial arts would you say are the more forgiving on your knees? I realize there is some objectivity in that question given that any MA can be 'knee friendly', but I would suppose there are arts that are inherently more friendly to the knees. 

To start, IMO, Kenpo and Wing Chun pop to mind as arts with higher stances and lower kicks - both of which, to me, form attributes of a knee friendly art. How about other arts?


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## Monadnock (Aug 9, 2007)

Yeti said:


> I've seen a lot of posts in different threads recently dealing with knees and knee pain. I know a lot of the answers I'll be seeking in this thread are found somewhere in MT-land, but I thought given the resurgence of the question, I'd try to consolidate the answers into one location. So...with that...
> 
> Which martial arts would you say are the more forgiving on your knees? I realize there is some objectivity in that question given that any MA can be 'knee friendly', but I would suppose there are arts that are inherently more friendly to the knees.
> 
> To start, IMO, Kenpo and Wing Chun pop to mind as arts with higher stances and lower kicks - both of which, to me, form attributes of a knee friendly art. How about other arts?


 
"Soft" style Chinese arts come to mind, like Tai Chi.

I think you'll find Kenpo can be stressful on the knees in some low stances.


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## Bumblebee (Aug 9, 2007)

I don't know too much about Kyokushin Karate, but I remember watching Human Weapon on History Channel.  The kicks aside from one jumping kick to the head were all low kicks.  They were aimed at the thigh, so I guess someone could look into that.


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## meth18au (Aug 10, 2007)

Yeah definitely Muay Thai- you know all that jumping rope with bare feet and all those kicks and knees  :lol:

But seriously- what about boxing?  I mean besides from the jumping rope bit, your feet are on the ground most the time?  I can't really say though, I'm not a boxer!!!


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## stoneheart (Aug 10, 2007)

Bumblebee said:


> I don't know too much about Kyokushin Karate, but I remember watching Human Weapon on History Channel.  The kicks aside from one jumping kick to the head were all low kicks.  They were aimed at the thigh, so I guess someone could look into that.




Kyokushin is full of sweeps, although the show left that out.  If knee-friendliness is paramount, I wouldn't choose most karate styles, and yes I am a karate-ka myself.


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## Brandon Fisher (Aug 10, 2007)

Okinawan Shorin Ryu at least Matsumura Seito, Kenshinkan, Kobayashi ryu, and even Matsubayashi ryu to an extent. Seibukan has lower stances.


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## JBrainard (Aug 10, 2007)

I have bad knees and I was told once by a doctor (a Shotokan practitioner, so it may have been biased) to stay away from TKD because of all of the spin kicks done from the balls of your feet (putting a twisting force on your knees). So, it would follow that any art that is kick intensive and uses the balls of your feet would be knee unfriendly.


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## Shotochem (Aug 10, 2007)

Chin-na, I haven't been taking it long (a class here and there to supplement my training), but I haven't seen any kicks or experienced any stress on my knees at all.

I would inquire in the Chinese arts section, they know more about it than I do.

-Marc-


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## Brandon Fisher (Aug 10, 2007)

I agree spinning kicks can be real bad on your knees.


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## Kacey (Aug 10, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> I have bad knees and I was told once by a doctor (a Shotokan practitioner, so it may have been biased) to stay away from TKD because of all of the spin kicks done from the balls of your feet (putting a twisting force on your knees). So, it would follow that any art that is kick intensive and uses the balls of your feet would be knee unfriendly.



Kicks, done properly, don't overly stress the knees... but the key here is that they have to be done properly, and many instructors don't know how to teach kicks so that they are performed correctly, in which case knee injuries become more likely.  JBrainard, the person who gave you the above information was biased, and likely did not understand how to kick - yes, you do pivot on the balls of the feet, and no, it doesn't put a twisting force on the knees, not the way you were apparently told it did, unless the pivot is done incorrectly.

Jump kicks, however, which are also a part of TKD, can be hard on the knees - but any good instructor will take physical condition and injuries into account, and this is true for any style.

Yeti, I would suggest you do some more research and decide what you are interested in - because if you're not interested in a style, it won't matter how easy it is on your knees, because you won't stay with it.  Then find a few schools that teach what you're interested in, and go talk to the instructor(s).  Tell him/her/them about your concerns, and see what they say.  Good instructors will give you straight answers and work with you to avoid problems; bad instructors will blow you off - which will tell you who to avoid in the first place.  In the long run, finding an instructor you respect and want to learn, in a class with an environment you enjoy, from is more important that the style the instructor teaches.


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## Bumblebee (Aug 10, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> Kyokushin is full of sweeps, although the show left that out. If knee-friendliness is paramount, I wouldn't choose most karate styles, and yes I am a karate-ka myself.


 
Thanks for the info on that.  All I know about Kyokushin is what I saw in the film Fighter in the Wind, and Human Weapon.  

I don't know if Taekwondo would be very good for a person with bad knees.  Primarily because in the Taekwondo that I'm training in, Chung Do Kwan, we're told to snap our kicks, except the Aporo Chirigi (sp?) stretching kick.  So you'll be lifting your knee a lot.  

Boxing has a lot of ducking and weaving and you don't necessarily always have your feet planted on the ground.  Then again, I'm not a boxer either.

Maybe Aikido?  From the minimal information I remember when I was 7 and the books I've read, I don't think there's a lot of stress on the knees in that martial art.  I could be wrong of course, but it might be something to look into.


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## JBrainard (Aug 10, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Kicks, done properly, don't overly stress the knees... but the key here is that they have to be done properly, and many instructors don't know how to teach kicks so that they are performed correctly, in which case knee injuries become more likely. JBrainard, the person who gave you the above information was biased, and likely did not understand how to kick - yes, you do pivot on the balls of the feet, and no, it doesn't put a twisting force on the knees, not the way you were apparently told it did, unless the pivot is done incorrectly.


 
Well, the information _was_ only hearsay after all. Thank you for correcting me.



Kacey said:


> ...go talk to the instructor(s). Tell him/her/them about your concerns, and see what they say. Good instructors will give you straight answers and work with you to avoid problems; bad instructors will blow you off - which will tell you who to avoid in the first place.


 
I'll have to second that. If an instructor isn't willing to work around your physical limitations during your training then he/she isn't a good instructor.


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 10, 2007)

Bang bang fu?


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## Yeti (Aug 10, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Yeti, I would suggest you do some more research and decide what you are interested in - because if you're not interested in a style, it won't matter how easy it is on your knees, because you won't stay with it.  Then find a few schools that teach what you're interested in, and go talk to the instructor(s).  Tell him/her/them about your concerns, and see what they say.  Good instructors will give you straight answers and work with you to avoid problems; bad instructors will blow you off - which will tell you who to avoid in the first place.  In the long run, finding an instructor you respect and want to learn, in a class with an environment you enjoy, from is more important that the style the instructor teaches.


Definitely good advice. I should I guess clarify the purpose of my post though.  In recent weeks I have noticed quite a bit of inquiry about knees and different styles, so I thought this thread could be a central location for that kind of info. Though I do have a bad knee, that wasn't the intention of my post. Thanks though!


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## qi-tah (Aug 13, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> "Soft" style Chinese arts come to mind, like Tai Chi.


 
It's ok if it's done with the correct alignment between the ankle, knee and hip, but too often i've seen ppl doing Taiji with unsafe footwork and then complaining about knee soreness. Also, some of the low transitions such as "Snake creeps low" can be hard on the knees. I've got dodgy knees myself and i've found that good hip flexibility is very important for keeping my knees tracking correctly through some of the transitions.

I guess too, it's important to work out what is wrong with yr knees... the type of injury will dictate which movements will be more painful. Having degenerative osteoarthritis is going to be a different kettle of fish to having a loose ligament, etc. Best to find out what movements to avoid by chatting to yr physio, then looking for an activity that de-emphisises those actions.


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## Cirdan (Aug 13, 2007)

Wado Ryu. Stances and movement in this style are designed to put as little stress on the knees as possible. However there will always be _some_ stress from moving, no matter what art you study.


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## grydth (Aug 13, 2007)

I agree with prior posters that the soft Chinese arts - Tai Chi, Qi Gong and Chin Na - can be wonderful for those with leg problems. A number of teachers actually reach out to the disabled, which I find commendable.

A good source is _Tai Chi for Seniors_ by Sifu Bonifonte, who has posted on this forum. 

I personally have seen people in wheelchairs learn and practice! 

Sifu Randi Turnbull also teaches a form for people with arthritis.

But the wise will heed Qi Tah's warning - done incorrectly and/or to an extreme, Tai Chi can cause or aggravate knee problems. Push that knee far over the foot, take that posture way to low or that kick way too high - say hello to your orthopedic surgeon.

These wonderful arts allow the elderly and severely disabled to enjoy the benefits of MA. Just as with anything else, however, misuse can lead to disaster.


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## Drac (Aug 13, 2007)

Combat Hapkido..NO RUDE COMMENTS PLEASE...


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## stoneheart (Aug 13, 2007)

Drac, from what little I have read and seen about the system, I like the idea of Combat Hapkido, and I think it has an excellent curriculum.  I do wish Mr. Pelligrini had picked another name, however.  Combat Hapkido is too "in your face" to people who practice an older form of Hapkido.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 13, 2007)

Drac said:


> Combat Hapkido..NO RUDE COMMENTS PLEASE...


I would probably agree with this, *Drac*. Although I haven't practiced Pelligrini's version, it seems mostly stand up material, w/ low-line kicks. And when I did traditional HKD, it was not the kicking that hurt my knees but the rolling and squatting, as for low sweeps. Granted my knees were already torn up, though.

So from there went to Kempo, and it wasn't too bad on the knees, tho I still wore heavy braces. then a funny thing happened. As I started doing these things called forms--which I hated, btw, cos they seemed to have nothing to do with fighting--my knees started to get stronger (actually, the muscle around the knees). I still couldn't (_still _can't) do a roll and spring upright, since it would yet again sprain a knee, but went to lighter braces. Long story shorter: went through three generations of braces, till now haven't worn any at all in years. So, forms can do a lot for body strength in places that will actually do you good (as well as what they do for overall practice of MAs).


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## howard (Aug 13, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> ...So from there went to Kempo, and it wasn't too bad on the knees, tho I still wore heavy braces. then a funny thing happened. As I started doing these things called forms--which I hated, btw, cos they seemed to have nothing to do with fighting--my knees started to get stronger (actually, the muscle around the knees).


Hi,

Good point... some people have knee problems because the muscles that support the knee, particularly the quadriceps, are weak.  Stengthening them will help alleviate certain knee problems, and requires no medical intervention.

I'm not familiar with Kempo forms, but the low stances in certain styles of all of the Karate-based arts are very good for strengthening the legs.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 13, 2007)

howard said:


> Hi,
> 
> Good point... some people have knee problems because the muscles that support the knee, particularly the quadriceps, are weak.  Stengthening them will help alleviate certain knee problems, and requires no medical intervention.
> 
> I'm not familiar with Kempo forms, but the low stances in certain styles of all of the Karate-based arts are very good for strengthening the legs.


 All good points. I'd just add that depending on the degree of problems one is already having, the MAist may want to move into any _really _low stances gradually.  Also, I believe that if holding a very low horse stance, for example, one should be very careful to have the toes pointing slightly outward, and not rigidly parallel with each other (which they might be in a higher stance). The parallel position can put a lot of pressure on the knees. Anyway, this is what's worked for me.


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## Ybot (Aug 15, 2007)

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu can either be easy on the knees if practiced properly and if you stay away from certain types of techniques until you have good hip flexibility and learn proper positioning.


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