# man beats toddler to death, witnesses fail to stop him



## KenpoTex (Jun 16, 2008)

This makes my blood boil.



> Police killed a 27-year-old man as he kicked, punched and stomped a toddler to death despite other people's attempts to stop him on a dark, country road, authorities said.
> 
> ...Because his injuries were so severe, the child will have to be identified through a blood or DNA test, he said.


http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=5172762

It doesn't say how hard the witnesses tried to stop the guy but it's obvious that *they didn't try hard enough*. Yeah, the cops shot him dead but they arrived too late to do any good (of course, they saved the taxpayers the cost of feeding this bastard for the next 30 years so I guess we should be thankful for that). 
I just wish someone had killed that mother****er _before_ he managed to murder this little boy. 

Anybody that would stand by and watch this happen to a child without doing anything and everything they could to stop it doesn't deserve to live.

Ok, I'm done ranting...this one just really set me off.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 16, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> This makes my blood boil.
> 
> http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=5172762
> 
> ...


 You're not the ONLY ONE!  I've read several versions of this story, and it's apparent that folks didn't try TOO DAMN hard!

I suspect 'tried to stop him' consisted of approaching him and telling him he should stop doing that, someone has called the cops. :miffer:



I read a story like this and I only WISH I COULD HAVE BEEN THERE!:enfo:


I don't care if you're UNARMED!  I don't care if you're BUTT-NAKED!  You DO NOT STAND-BY and watch a SMALL CHILD GET BEATEN TO DEATH!  The men in that group need to HOLD THEIR MANHOODS CHEAP FROM THIS DAY FORWARD and KNOW THAT THEY ARE BASE-COWARDS!

We as a society should SHAME people for that kind of behavior!  Instead, we as a society encourage it!


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## Tomu (Jun 16, 2008)

The article says the people had no effect. 

How about tire iron??  I bet that would have an effect.
If that didn't work run the guy over with a car.
This makes me sick.:flammad:
The feeble attempts of the witnesses just goes to show that we as a people have become soft, weak sheep unable to get out of our comfort zones.
I say the people that were witnesses should be tried for involuntary manslaughter and negligence.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 16, 2008)

Tomu said:


> .
> I say the people that were witnesses should be tried for involuntary manslaughter and negligence.


 

You know--something like that in the news might just finally be the kick in the *** society needs about this. I say go for it.


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## CoryKS (Jun 16, 2008)

Tomu said:


> The article says the people had no effect.


 
This should be etched on their gravestones.

"Here Lies _______.   He Had No Effect."

Bastards.


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## Ahriman (Jun 16, 2008)

Tried to stop him... ridiculous. This *interesting* bastard was occupied with killing the kid, it's damn sure he wouldn't have noticed someone charging on him with full speed. And it's damn sure that a full powered hammer fist to his backbone would've stopped him. Or multiple stabs preferably to his stomach to give him a slow agonizing death. Or breaking both of his knees then hang him up in a proper strappado and after a few hours set him to fire.
...
In such cases you don't have the right to consider any other solutions than killing the bastard. It's not like a drunken fight or a robbery where you can hope that if the attacker ends up in prison he possibly changes, it is the beating-to-death of a kid. Watching that and "trying to stop him with no effect"... there are no excuses for this kind of behaviour. It's much, much worse than what happened here yesterday.
...
Yes, I'm not "politically correct". Vermin like the attacker do not deserve it.


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## Grenadier (Jun 16, 2008)

Horrible indeed.  Glad that the police ended his life.  God only knows what this murderer would have done to other children, or possibly what he has already done to other children.  

Yes, SOMEONE should have taken a more significant action, one that would have involved force.  

I do wonder, though, why the use of force wasn't effective?  I do have some thoughts on this matter. 

A one or two year old child isn't going to be able to take much of a beating from a fully grown adult, and it's entirely possible that the child was already dead before anyone could render any aid.  

Also, who were the witnesses?  Were they also a bunch of elderly folks who tried to stop him?  If so, there's a significant strength disadvantage.  Unless one of them were armed, I am not so sure they could have made a difference, if that were the case.  Given that it's in California, the odds of one of them having a firearm on them aren't going to be too good.


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## shesulsa (Jun 16, 2008)

A couple of things:

1.  THIS is obscene:


> Because his injuries were so severe, the child will have to be identified through a blood or DNA test, he said.



2.  Anyone from the LA area remember Richard Ramirez, a.k.a. the Night Stalker and the scene of mobbed citizens taking him down for the police?  There was a certain feeling of vindication in So. Cal. that day ... the people took down one of the area's most notorious serial killers.  And no one (that my research shows) was charged with assault in that case.

3.  This stand-by-and-watch-it-happen is the result of laws impeding our rights to defend ourselves through the use of violence.  Anyone who tried to stop that man with a tire iron would likely have been arrested and charged.  I'll not be surprised if the officer is investigated.


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## jim777 (Jun 16, 2008)

Difficult to even comprehend, never mind speak to rationally. I will say though that I don't know how much the "elderly couple" mentioned in the article could have done against a 27 year old who clearly had snapped in a titanic way. My heart absolutely breaks for the poor child; I have four children myself and I just don't know what to think. I'm never going to be able to get my head around things like this.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 16, 2008)

That the police saved the tax payers 30 years of paying for this guy's room and board is a good thing. That a child is lost because of this man's rage is tragic and heartbreaking to say the least.
How many more children will suffer in the days to come? How many more people will stand by and do little or nothing while these things happen? 
Will it galvanize people to rise up and cry out for better protection? Will people be moved enough to actually step in when an adult goes too far with a child? Or will sheeple continue turn their heads and say "it's none of our business" ? 
Singularly they probably couldn't stop the guy in his rage but en-massed they could've been more effective and held him til the police arrived. 
It rends my heart anew to read about this (again) after trying to heal from reading other stories of like horrors and atrocities against children.

No wonder Christ loved them so much... he knew that they suffer most of all.


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## Kreth (Jun 16, 2008)

I bet one of those worthless ****s got it on his cellphone cam though...


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## Drac (Jun 16, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I read a story like this and I only WISH I COULD HAVE BEEN THERE!:enfo:


 
Same here...




sgtmac_46 said:


> I don't care if you're UNARMED! I don't care if you're BUTT-NAKED! You DO NOT STAND-BY and watch a SMALL CHILD GET BEATEN TO DEATH! The men in that group need to HOLD THEIR MANHOODS CHEAP FROM THIS DAY FORWARD and KNOW THAT THEY ARE BASE-COWARDS!


 
Well said....




sgtmac_46 said:


> We as a society should SHAME people for that kind of behavior! Instead, we as a society encourage it!


 
Amen brother...


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## Sukerkin (Jun 16, 2008)

I concur with all the outraged and protective reponses above.  It is often the case that those who were not there to help, react the strongest of all because we never had the opportunity.

I do think that *Grenadier* makes some good points above tho' that might explain the lack of effective action from the witnesses.  I would guess that the poor little kid was already dead from the first blow, given how manic the attack description sounds.


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## KELLYG (Jun 16, 2008)

There Is Not A Death Slow Enough,painful Enough Or A Hell Hot Enough For Some One That Doses Such Harm To A Toddler.


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## jks9199 (Jun 16, 2008)

This incident sickens me on many, many levels...

But without more evidence, I'm not condemning the people who failed to successfully intervene.  I've seen people take shots that you'd expect to have laid them out, and simply grin.  We don't know what drugs, if any, this non-human was on.  I've been real lucky in my career; I've never faced someone really high on PCP -- but I've heard enough horror stories to realize that it's very possible that very strenous efforts to stop him could have been ineffective if he was on PCP.  There's not enough information right now; I'm not condemning anyone yet.


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't know what to say.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 16, 2008)

Well it was in California.The land of 'may issue' permits if you contribute to the sherrif's campaine fund.

I expect that from the Northeast and West coast.

I'd be shocked if that happened in Texas.

Deaf


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## tellner (Jun 16, 2008)

It outrages me, too. But I don't know how strongly I can condemn the first witnesses:



> The truck caught *the attention of an elderly couple at 10:13 p.m.* Saturday because it was stopped in the two-lane road facing the wrong direction, Singh said.
> *Man pushed off efforts to stop him*
> As they got closer, the couple saw the man brutally beating the toddler behind his truck and throwing the child on the ground, according to Singh. Two or three other cars stopped, an unusual number to be passing through the remote area surrounded by a dairy, a cow pasture, a cornfield and a farmhouse, he said.
> "What we got from witnesses is he was punching, slapping, kicking, stomping, shaking," Singh said. *"They tried to intervene and get involved, but their efforts really didn't have an effect. The suspect was engaged in what he was doing. He just pushed them off and went back to it.*"



If the elderly couple wasn't particularly skilled or strong for their age they may well have been unable to have an effect. And they may have been afraid themselves. Physical courage is easy when you believe that you are able to defeat a bad person. It is more difficult, and your limits may be different if you really believe that the dangerous lunatic will cripple or kill you as well as his intended victim. The other witnesses? Unless they were also frail and elderly - in which case even a mob of six or seven angry elders should be able to do something - they don't get any sort of slack.

From the article it sounds like the officer on the scene did exactly what was indicated.


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## Hawke (Jun 16, 2008)

Gun laws in California are usually by county.  Some places give them out easily, while other places you have to be a high profile politician or actor.  

What happened to the toddler is a tragedy.   I am both extremely angry and sad.


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## Kacey (Jun 16, 2008)

My sympathy and condolences to the family of the child.  

The perpetrator was a virus, who ability to infect others has been eliminated.

As far as the bystanders, it depends on who they were and what their abilities were; as with many other issues, we who were not there can second-guess the situation all we want - but when it comes down to it, we weren't there.  Would I hope that in a similar situation, I would jump in?  Certainly - and sitting here safely, at my dining room table in front of my laptop, I say to myself that I would - but unless and until each of us is in such a situation, we cannot say with certainty just how we would act.  The people who did not intervene will have to live with that the rest of their lives; that may not be enough - but it's what will be.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 16, 2008)

Kacey said:


> My sympathy and condolences to the family of the child.
> 
> The perpetrator was a virus, who ability to infect others has been eliminated.
> 
> As far as the bystanders, it depends on who they were and what their abilities were; as with many other issues, we who were not there can second-guess the situation all we want - but when it comes down to it, we weren't there.  Would I hope that in a similar situation, I would jump in?  Certainly - and sitting here safely, at my dining room table in front of my laptop, I say to myself that I would - but unless and until each of us is in such a situation, we cannot say with certainty just how we would act.  The people who did not intervene will have to live with that the rest of their lives; that may not be enough - but it's what will be.


That goes with what I've learned over the years... no one knows exactly what they're capable of doing or NOT doing until it happens. No one knows what they will do (or not do) in any given moment. 
As you said we can arm-chair this to death but when it really happens right in front of us... :idunno: who knows?

But our hearts, in this moment are definitely in the right place.


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## Ahriman (Jun 17, 2008)

My late grandfather got quite weak due to his sicknesses before he died, but there was an occasion when he hit a would-be robber in the groin with his walking cane. Even as by then he had one of his legs amputated, the toes removed from the other leg, was quite obese and weak and suffered from asthma. As long as you're not in a wheelchair... you can do whatever you want, but only if you want to do it.
...
As for knowing what would we do... I dunno, so far I did whatever was logical and right according my views. Hell, even as a child _(11)_ I could protect my female classmates even as this sometimes required removing a few teeth or breaking a few ribs and sometimes with a shoe instead of my fists. _(I had some classmates who failed repeatedly so they were 2-3 years older than me and some of this some had a habit of trying to strangle girls. They were members of a certain ethnic group and it was made clear to us by the teachers that they can't throw them out because the parents threatened the school to sue them for racism if they do.)_


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## CoryKS (Jun 17, 2008)

Update -  Man id'ed, child thought to be his son.  Said the boy was filled with "demons" and flipped off the police officer before having his third eye opened.


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## shesulsa (Jun 17, 2008)

Damn. Again.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 17, 2008)

The baby wasn't filled with demons... the father was.


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## Kacey (Jun 17, 2008)

CoryKS said:


> Update -  Man id'ed, child thought to be his son.  Said the boy was filled with "demons" and flipped off the police officer before having his third eye opened.



I don't know if that makes it worse or not... nothing could make it better, that's for sure.



MA-Caver said:


> The baby wasn't filled with demons... the father was.



Sounds like it.  Sounds like a psychotic break, too, based on this line from the article:



> He said Aguilar had a "total hollowness in his eyes" and talked calmly of the boy being filled with "demons."



Being mentally ill could explain this horrific tragedy... one can only hope that it will not be allowed to _excuse_ it.


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## Archangel M (Jun 17, 2008)

Who says cops cant shoot? Guy deserves a medal. To bad he wasnt there sooner, but at that age the poor child was probably gone after the first couple of seconds.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 17, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> I'd be shocked if that happened in Texas.
> 
> Deaf


 
If  you're right about that, then all you gung-ho Texans are completely justified in your famous Texas pride.


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## bowser666 (Jun 17, 2008)

This has to be some sort of Mental disease that guy was suffering from. Anyone with half a mind knows what he did was evil.  The man is better off not being on this Earth anymore. So sad what happened to the child , and my heart goes out to the remainder of the family. This is similar to a situation that occurred in Massachusetts in Holyoke I believe where a man was a victim of a hit and run accident ( he was walking car hit him , kept going) and numerous people , walked up to within 5 feet of him , then walked off,  drove around his body in the road, and just LEFT HIM THERE !!  People really disgust me sometimes, and this lack of Togetherness that we have is sickening. We keep this up we will become more and more desensitized to this  and humans as a whole are going to take a full step back in Moral Evolution, instead of the half step we are in mid stride of.  grrrrrrrrrrrr


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## ares (Jun 17, 2008)

wow, you have got to be kidding me. NOBODY could tackle this goon and hold him down until more people could help. A good choke from behind would slow him down a bit. Kick to the side of the knee could disable him. Hell, a purse or keys to the face would work too. You can't get on the elderly couple, but anyone else you should be ashamed of yourself.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 17, 2008)

Whilst your emotions do you credit and there is nothing inherently wrong in what you said, *Ares*, I wonder if toning down the font size a tad might be an idea?  

Just as typing in all capitals is bad form in Internet-Land, so is using text of overly enhanced point.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 17, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Whilst your emotions do you credit and there is nothing inherently wrong in what you said, *Ares*, I wonder if toning down the font size a tad might be an idea?
> 
> Just as typing in all capitals is bad form in Internet-Land, so is using text of overly enhanced point.



Yes, agreed. Say what's on your mind but use a decent size font. :asian:


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## jks9199 (Jun 17, 2008)

ares said:


> wow, you have got to be kidding me. NOBODY could tackle this goon and hold him down until more people could help. A good choke from behind would slow him down a bit. Kick to the side of the knee could disable him. Hell, a purse or keys to the face would work too. You can't get on the elderly couple, but anyone else you should be ashamed of yourself.


Have you ever been in a situation even loosely comparable?

It's easy to criticise with 20/20 hindsight.  It's easy from the safety of the keyboard to say what you "would have done!"  It ain't so easy in the real world.

It seems people made some effort to intervene, though it was unsuccessful.  Having been one of 4 strong cops trying to drag a cuffed individual out of house, and it taking all 4 of us to do so -- I know that it's not always so simple to take someone down.  I don't know what's been found in the suspect's bloods.  The accounts I read strongly suggest that there probably was a nice cocktail of drugs -- or he was just plain off his rocker.  Either is sufficient to make a person much harder to control.

I applaud the folks for trying -- even if all they did was yell at him or call 911.


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## cfr (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm glad the cops killed him. The only thing better would be to beat him to death, as opposed to shoot.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 18, 2008)

cfr said:


> I'm glad the cops killed him. The only thing better would be to beat him to death, as opposed to shoot.



The only thing better would've been to save  the child before it was beaten to death


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## Kacey (Jun 18, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> The only thing better would've been to save  the child before it was beaten to death



Indeed.  I will shed no tears over the man... but no one - especially a child - deserves to die in such a horrific fashion simply for existing.


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## cfr (Jun 18, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> The only thing better would've been to save the child before it was beaten to death


 
OMG, you're really going to nit pick this statement? Don't you think I meant the only thing better *in regards to him being killed?*


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## chinto (Jun 19, 2008)

in that case deadly force was appropriate and should have been used.. fire arm. blade or what have you. as I understand it when the police arrived they did shoot the man dead! If I saw such a thing I would use what ever force I could to stop him!  this does indeed mean maximum force possible, using any weapons or techniques to stop him by any means possible.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 19, 2008)

Kreth said:


> I bet one of those worthless ****s got it on his cellphone cam though...


 Yes, they were probably 'good' witnesses.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 19, 2008)

tellner said:


> It outrages me, too. But I don't know how strongly I can condemn the first witnesses:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  According to several reports the elderly couple were stopped with several other vehicles at that location.

Moreover, if your only physical capability is to simply **** this guy off enough to start beating YOU and give the kid some respite THAT IS WHAT YOU DO!!!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 19, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Have you ever been in a situation even loosely comparable?
> 
> It's easy to criticise with 20/20 hindsight. It's easy from the safety of the keyboard to say what you "would have done!" It ain't so easy in the real world.
> 
> ...


  It's very simple....if you stand by and watch as a grown man beats a two year old to death, you DO NOT DESERVE to ever be able look at yourself in the mirror again!  It's that simple!  If your ONLY contribution is simply to act as a SUBSTITUTE for this guy to beat on for a while, THAT IS WHAT YOU DO!

Yes, we don't always know in the moment of truth if we will become spineless cowards....but lets not kid ourselves in to thinking that isn't what we are if we fail that test!  Better yet, lets 'screw our courage to the sticking place' and commit to NOT failing that test if it's ever in front of us, EVEN IF IT COSTS US OUR LIVES!

These folks deserve SHAME!  They deserve shame so we as men know what society EXPECTS FROM US!


I often hear a lot of 'Well, you never know what you'll do until your in the situation, blah, blah, blah'........But I DO KNOW what I would....Why?  BECAUSE I COULD NEVER LIVE WITH MYSELF IF I DID OTHERWISE!  EVER!  I'd rather DIE there than live with the image of that small child being beaten!  So it's not a CHOICE for ME!


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## tellner (Jun 20, 2008)

From the Czech Republic via The Telegraph. The least horrible part of the article is reproduced below:



> Mauerova had the monitor installed so that she could watch the abuse from her kitchen but the images were picked up by a neighbour who used an identical system to monitor a newborn baby, the regional court in Brno has heard.



Here's hoping the Czech's have some sort of old, old laws still on the books for dealing with werewolves.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 20, 2008)

Some nights, ladies and gentlemen, I am aghast at what we humans can do to each other.  It makes the word "humane" an ironic commentary .


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## MA-Caver (Jun 20, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Some nights, ladies and gentlemen, I am aghast at what we humans can do to each other.  It makes the word "humane" an ironic commentary .


Agreed but at the same time it's not as surprising as horrifying.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 20, 2008)

tellner said:


> From the Czech Republic via The Telegraph. The least horrible part of the article is reproduced below:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's hoping the Czech's have some sort of old, old laws still on the books for dealing with werewolves.


 

Oh yeah.

If ever there were a bunch of Czechs that needed to be cancelled, they are the ones. :rpo:


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## tellner (Jun 20, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Moreover, if your only physical capability is to simply **** this guy off enough to start beating YOU and give the kid some respite THAT IS WHAT YOU DO!!!



It is what you would do. It is what I would do. We made what Mr. Ayoob calls the Decision a long time ago. The rest follows immediately from that.

Most people aren't mentally or emotionally prepared to do it.I'm perfectly willing, but I can't require that someone else sacrifice his life for a stranger, especially if he or she doesn't believe it will make a difference.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 20, 2008)

But then, we're sheepdogs. Not everyone is, or can be.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 21, 2008)

tellner said:


> It is what you would do. It is what I would do. We made what Mr. Ayoob calls the Decision a long time ago. The rest follows immediately from that.
> 
> Most people aren't mentally or emotionally prepared to do it.I'm perfectly willing, but I can't require that someone else sacrifice his life for a stranger, especially if he or she doesn't believe it will make a difference.


  And those who fail in that situation should be shamed so that the rest of society knows what to expect from them.


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## ares (Jun 29, 2008)

Sukerkin, I apologize for sounding so angry. I have been in a situation where I have had to subdue a person. In a police situation you must follow procedures, but I strongly feel that if other people stepped up even for a short time, then someone could have removed the child from that event and thus possibly prevented that child's death. In the situation I was in, the person was high on cocaine and was trying to beat me down with a hatchet. I used whatever I could to stop this person and when it was all over and the dust settled, this person got help and is now a great father to his children and is still my BROTHER. Calling the police was a good thing, but I would gladly put myself into harms way time and time again to help a child in need.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 29, 2008)

Hi *Ares*, there was nothing to be regretful about in the honesty of your emotions.  

The topic inherently draws such from us - or at least I would hope that most people would feel at least some of that which you expressed.


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## tellner (Jun 29, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> But then, we're sheepdogs. Not everyone is, or can be.



Speak fer yerself. I'm a giant frog with tentacles


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## MA-Caver (Jun 29, 2008)

ares said:


> Sukerkin, I apologize for sounding so angry. I have been in a situation where I have had to subdue a person. In a police situation you must follow procedures, but I strongly feel that if other people stepped up even for a short time, then someone could have removed the child from that event and thus possibly prevented that child's death. In the situation I was in, the person was high on cocaine and was trying to beat me down with a hatchet. I used whatever I could to stop this person and when it was all over and the dust settled, this person got help and is now a great father to his children and is still my BROTHER. Calling the police was a good thing, but I would gladly put myself into harms way time and time again to help a child in need.



Some afterthoughts here... while it would indeed be a noble thing to step up and distract the man from beating the child enough so that until law enforcement arrives; but think about this... how EASY is it to kill a child with a single blow or kick? Even picking it up and letting it go and dropping it to the pavement is enough. Even if the child hadn't died immediately it's damage to the brain is probably severe enough that it would probably die after some time in the hospital. 
Now I'm *not* saying that the guy shouldn't have been stopped at all. Of course he should've. Striking/kicking/dropping a young child like that even once is enough cause to beat him to a bloody pulp. What this man was doing was basically rendering the body of the child who was probably already dead by the second or third blow to a bloody mass that not even the LEO on the scene was able to recognize it as a human baby. It may have been the intensity of the attack that frightened people enough to stay away. Would you try to physically restrain a wildly snarling, snapping, foaming pit bull? 
Yet the man wasn't crazed. He was doing it all calmly and even politely explained to the officer and people what he was doing. That can be _just as_ frightening. 
Rightly the officer shot/killed him. A trial would've been a waste. Chances are after the attack and subsequent arrest he'd probably would've receded enough into his mind so far that his eyes would've been nothing more than blank stares. Gone, outta the game permanently and wasting oxygen.


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## Ahriman (Jun 30, 2008)

"Yet the man wasn't crazed. He was doing it all calmly and even politely explained to the officer and people what he was doing. That can be _just as_ frightening."
Sounds like some mental disorder, most likely psychopathy_ (or "antisocial mental disorder" if you wish)_. People hate when I do this. It is frightening for sure to those who are "normal". Against a psycho you should do everything with extreme care - but you should do what you must nonetheless.
"Would you try to physically restrain a wildly snarling, snapping, foaming pit bull?"
Cleaving the head of an attacking German shepherd into two counts? I love dogs as long as they aren't running full speed towards me barking and foaming. Even with this I held back as long as it was safe. I love dogs.
...
It doesn't matter that *after* the murder we know that the child was most likely dead after the first blow. "Most likely" doesn't mean "for sure". If the attacker would've been stopped in time, the kid *may* have survived. Even being partially or totally paralized is better than being dead.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 1, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> It may have been the intensity of the attack that frightened people enough to stay away. *Would you try to physically restrain a wildly snarling, snapping, foaming pit bull?*


 
Yes I would.  When I was about 10, armed only with a pocketknife, I came within a few seconds of tackling a pitbull that was attacking my little brother.  Thankfully for all concerned (since a 10-year-old is probably no match for a pit, knife or not), the owner was able to get to the dog before I did and pull it off.  My brother was okay, when the dog knocked him down, it grabbed his foot and the sole of his shoe prevented any punctures (though he had some nasty bruises).  Not trying to pat myself on the back but the point is, I didn't think about it, I saw the dog hit him and I was already moving that way with my knife in my hand.  There was no question as to whether I was going to get myself hurt or not.

I'd like to believe that if I had witnessed this incident, that piece of filth would have gone down whether I was armed or not.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 1, 2008)

I too have experienced that innate reaction, *Tex*, the one where you simply act and give no thought to the consequences.  In my case it was when a Rottweiler attacked my Border Collie when we were out for a walk with my cousin.  

I laid into that Rottie with the walking stick that I had, my cousin used his feet and Pip (my dog) used the weapons nature gave her.  In retrospect we were daft; that Rottie could've made a hell of a mess of us.  But it is useful as an example of how powerful the urge to 'defend' can be.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 1, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I too have experienced that innate reaction, *Tex*, the one where you simply act and give no thought to the consequences.  In my case it was when a Rottweiler attacked my Border Collie when we were out for a walk with my cousin.
> 
> I laid into that Rottie with the walking stick that I had, my cousin used his feet and Pip (my dog) used the weapons nature gave her.  In retrospect we were daft; that Rottie could've made a hell of a mess of us.  But it is useful as an example of how powerful the urge to 'defend' can be.



Yes indeed... and even more so when it's your own. Child, dog, cat whatever. We've seem to become a society that is more towards protecting our own than some others. You read stories about how houses get robbed while the neighbors are next door hearing (or not hearing) something and calling the police. People walking by a robbery or watching from across the street. 
The good Samaritan syndrome I call it. Like that video of the man who got hit by a car and dozens of people and cars went by and nobody helping. 

Was it in the case of this child? Or was it because the scene was so horrific that people just were rooted to the spot trying to believe what their eyes were telling them? Did they really want to help but just were too shocked to move/react?  Or was it deep down inside "it's not my kid" but a little closer to the surface "let the police handle this one" and even deeper down in the darkest recesses of the soul... a fascination?


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## jks9199 (Jul 1, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Was it in the case of this child? Or was it because the scene was so horrific that people just were rooted to the spot trying to believe what their eyes were telling them? Did they really want to help but just were too shocked to move/react?  Or was it deep down inside "it's not my kid" but a little closer to the surface "let the police handle this one" and even deeper down in the darkest recesses of the soul... a fascination?



The last several posts seem to have missed an important detail.  There is every indication that at least some of these passerby made some sort of effort to stop the monster or at least called 911.  In short -- they did SOMETHING.  Perhaps it wasn't the aggressive, violent intervention that many hear believe they would do -- but they weren't simply passive observers, either.  To use Dave Grossman's label -- not everyone can be a sheepdog, and even sheepdogs sometimes have to hold back.

As I said before, I applaud anyone who took any positive action, rather than simply staring.


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## tellner (Jul 1, 2008)

To hell with the charismatic megafauna! 

We're not wolves or sheepdogs or sheep. 

We're oversexed large-headed bald apes with bad posture. 

We're not stuck. Nothing forces any of us to be prey. It means we are all members of the troop and all have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our mates from danger. Sometimes the danger is from lions or snakes. Sometimes it's from other bands of apes or a chimp in our own band who is a threat to the rest.

In the wild some apes cower. Most run away - the smart ones - when it's an alternative. Wouldn't you climb a tree or hide in the thick part of the canopy if it kept the tiger or eagle from getting you? That's not cowardice, it's common sense.

But every grown ape in the troop is ready to defend the rest. Even barely grown knuckle-walkers who don't have offspring of their own spend time on guard duty, risking their lives for the safety of others. 

In species like chimps which have war the males all participate. And the boss chimps had darned well better be out there in front on raids. Nobody "leads" by standing back and ordering his brothers and cousins to die. 

And when one crosses the line everyone drives him away. Oh sure, the bigger males and senior females take the lead. The price of being a leader is leading. Otherwise nobody follows.

From bands of little monkeys in the tree to chimps to gorillas the group's survival is everyone's responsibility. That means that when the young are threatened everybody mobs the threat. If whatever it is doesn't run away they stomp a mudhole in it. And sometimes they'll track it down and throw rocks at it until it dies. 

That's what apes do. And that's why I'm happy to be an ape, not a stupid scared sheep or a starving coyote or a coyote that's had a makeover and guards someone else's sheep in exchange for table scraps.


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## chinto (Jul 2, 2008)

I say in such a case the only thing that matters is that the attacker of the kid is stopped.. dead is actually preferable!!  but .. in my state you would almost certainly have no problems .. in some states.. may not be the case.. .. ether way i see it  he is toast!!  maximum force possible instantly!!


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## Em MacIntosh (Jul 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> This incident sickens me on many, many levels...
> 
> But without more evidence, I'm not condemning the people who failed to successfully intervene. I've seen people take shots that you'd expect to have laid them out, and simply grin. We don't know what drugs, if any, this non-human was on. I've been real lucky in my career; I've never faced someone really high on PCP -- but I've heard enough horror stories to realize that it's very possible that very strenous efforts to stop him could have been ineffective if he was on PCP. There's not enough information right now; I'm not condemning anyone yet.


 
I'm with you here.  It's not cut and dry unless you were there.  If the cops killed him it seems obvious he was armed or presented a very significant threat to the police (not to mention the "cowardly" civilians).  Is it cowardly to save your skin at the expense of others, even a child?  Perhaps.  You all know what an adrenaline dump is.  I'm confident any witnesses are scarred for life and are well aware of their own guilty feelings for not doing (or feeling able to do) more.  Many of us have seen someone in a blind rage, right?  Even if they'd done something, what if the child was already dead?  Would they be criticised for not doing something fast enough?  If you intervened and killed the guy, it's not likely you'll go to jail but stranger things have happened, not to mention a lack of awareness of possible consequences not likely to occur to them when in a state of shock.  I'm not defending anyone but remeber that people are human.  We're not all heros.  Those people may have had families of their own.  FEAR CAN BE A POWERFUL THING.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 10, 2008)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I'm with you here. It's not cut and dry unless you were there. If the cops killed him it seems obvious he was armed or presented a very significant threat to the police (not to mention the "cowardly" civilians). Is it cowardly to save your skin at the expense of others, even a child? Perhaps. You all know what an adrenaline dump is. I'm confident any witnesses are scarred for life and are well aware of their own guilty feelings for not doing (or feeling able to do) more. Many of us have seen someone in a blind rage, right? Even if they'd done something, what if the child was already dead? Would they be criticised for not doing something fast enough? If you intervened and killed the guy, it's not likely you'll go to jail but stranger things have happened, not to mention a lack of awareness of possible consequences not likely to occur to them when in a state of shock. I'm not defending anyone but remeber that people are human. We're not all heros. Those people may have had families of their own. FEAR CAN BE A POWERFUL THING.


 Yes....Cowardace is a powerful thing.


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## Ahriman (Jul 10, 2008)

I don't know, maybe everyone should have a loved one suffering from epilepsia, even if the sickness only lasts for a year or so. My girlfriend's seizures taught me the huge difference between fear and cowardice. I'm usually in fear then as every seizure can be fatal _(not the seizure itself but during one she can't breath for most of the time and earlier her seizures lasted for 10-25 minutes - yes, she's hard)_, yet this fear never stopped me from doing the things necessary.
So I'm echoing sgtmac_46's viewpoint: fear is not powerful, cowardice is.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 10, 2008)

We all know why these folks failed to act.  We all know what fear is.  But, though cowardice is understandable.....it should NEVER be acceptable!  And every man must guard against it in his own life.

A moment like this one happens once or twice in the average person's life.....it's a test many folks obviously don't pass.


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 18, 2008)

This is horrible.....hearing about things like this kind of makes me depressed to know that I live in such a messed up world.....my thoughts and prayers go out to the little boys family.....that is if it wasnt his "family" that did this to him


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## BLACK LION (Aug 18, 2008)

need more ccw license holders out there.... 

too bad the cops shot him.... it saved him a broomstick up the rectum in prison...  our tax payer dollars would have only paid for his ride up there and his welcome kit.... he would have been dead as soon as he met his cell mate....  the police did him a favor...not us.... 

this is our societies fault..... we always just stand and watch... like mooooo mooooo....baaaah baaaaaah....  so many advocates against violence but have thier bowl o popcorn out to watch "most shocking" or scariest police chases....     we are a nation of watchers.... how many planes missed thier mark during 911 = 1 ... the hundreds of others were all scared of blood gushing from a razor cut.... but it happens all the time.... in turn thousands died and a nation was at its knees....  why... because they were all watching.... engaged and frozen from gore... because or media trained them to be.....  

we have grown docile and dormant by being reactive or defensive..... the old america must return or we will implode and terror will accelerate it


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 19, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Have you ever been in a situation even loosely comparable?
> 
> It's easy to criticise with 20/20 hindsight. It's easy from the safety of the keyboard to say what you "would have done!" It ain't so easy in the real world.
> 
> ...


 

Well seeing as we are discouraged and penilized in this society for aggressive action, it could be none of these people could stop this guy.

 If we were not such a wussyfied society, then half those people would have known to put some sharp steel into his kidney's and up his rectum and he would be done for. Seems to me if he shrugged off the attempts to help and was focusing on what he was doing, then it would make killing him rather easy, he would nmot see the blade coming.

 It's stuff like this that shows why the Nanny state needs to be killed for all time and men should be required to act like men, not a ***** with an extra appendage.


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## teekin (Aug 20, 2008)

I can see that the bystanders were likely frightened of being harmed themselves. BUT.. they did not have to engage the man in a physical altercation, all they had to do was Distract him from the boy long enough to shove the child into a vehicle, Lock the Damn Doors, and drive like hell to the nearest ER. Distraction can be talking to, pinning his arms, knocking him to the ground, tire iron to the base of the skull, tap with a Buick sedan, throw rocks at his head. *Whatever it takes to have him take his attention off the child.  *And it is easier said than done, but not doing nothing is not an option for me. Camus' said "silence implies consent", I Do Not Consent!
Lori M


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## theletch1 (Aug 20, 2008)

_Moderator Note_ 

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:_

Please, keep the conversation to a kid-safe level.  The general martial arts talk forum is open to all members of the board.  We have quite a few members who are younger than 18 years old.  While the anger at the situation is truly understandable many of the suggested "punishments" for the animal in question have crossed the PG13 level.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

-Jeff Letchford
-MT super moderator-


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## BLACK LION (Aug 20, 2008)

sorry


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## MA-Caver (Aug 20, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> _Moderator Note_
> 
> _ATTENTION ALL USERS:_
> 
> ...


Indeed, suggesting punishment is rather moot at this point since he got the ultimate punishment by an officer shooting him to death. He was probably too nuts to remain among society (even prison) anyway. 
As far as the eyewitnesses to the horrendous act, I would think that they're punishing themselves enough out of guilt for NOT stepping in. Hindsight is the greatest prophet of all.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Aug 28, 2008)

I feel sorry for the elderly couple. It would take an awful lot of bravery for elderly folk to try and intervene with someone in that type of violence, and knowing it didnt make a difference would scar deep. I have nothing but respect for them for trying though.


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