# Sport Poomsae and not well known changes



## taekwondodo (Feb 1, 2010)

I do not know if every instructors/coaches know, but there is a MAJOR changes in Form/Poomsae Divisions for Qualifiers and Nationals.

Major changes affecting 10-13 yr BLK BLT & 14-17 BLK BLT:
USAT eliminated individual form division and any athletes in the above catagories, want to compete in Poomsae, they have to compete in the Sport Poomsae divisions.

The athletes from 10-13 needs to know: Taekguek 1, 3,4,5,6,7,8 and Koryo.

14-17 needs to know Taekguek 4,5,6,7,8, Koryo, Kumgang, & Taebek.

It is not well advertised on USTA side, I found out by accident last night.  This change will eliminates 95% of our Black Belts athletes who usually compete in individual Poomsae competition at National.

link: http://usa-taekwondo.us/events/2721/page?page_id=8239


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## ATC (Feb 2, 2010)

If you compete it is well known. Also why should it eliminate any Black Belts from competing? Black Belts should know their forms. My kids are only 11 and 12 and they both know up to Sip Jin plus all the Taegeuks. If you have competed in the past 2 years this is how its been.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2010)

Not having competed in forms... ever... I have to ask; what is the sport poomsae division and what division is it that has been eliminated?  If it is a tournament, it would seem that everything is 'sport.'

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2010)

Those changes have been in place, so why all the fuss about it. Anybody that is doing TKD should know all there poomsae not just a few when it is time to test. This is what is wrong in today MA community, we believe that people should not be doing poomsae or only know the movements, what about the principle involed in each poomsae?


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## Miles (Feb 2, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not having competed in forms... ever... I have to ask; what is the sport poomsae division and what division is it that has been eliminated? If it is a tournament, it would seem that everything is 'sport.'
> 
> Daniel


 
The change is one in format.  It used to be that you competed in poomsae by performing an assigned poomsae (such as Koryo for 1st dan) based on rank.

Now the format is based not on rank, but on the competitor's age.  So for instance, as a 46yr old (I would be in the 1st Master's division), I need to know through Chonkwon (7th dan poomsae)-not too bad for someone who has trained for 35 yrs but what about the 46 yr old green belt who only needs to know Taeguek 5 for his next rank test?


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## MSUTKD (Feb 2, 2010)

This only applies to black belts


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## Miles (Feb 2, 2010)

Bad example on my part! <bows>


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## taekwondodo (Feb 2, 2010)

ATC said:


> If you compete it is well known. Also why should it eliminate any Black Belts from competing? Black Belts should know their forms. My kids are only 11 and 12 and they both know up to Sip Jin plus all the Taegeuks. If you have competed in the past 2 years this is how its been.


We didn't know, EVEN I, who competed in 1st Master in the last two years.  I should clarify this, my instructor and I did not know about elimination of the 1 form format for the 10-13 year old blk blt.

Last year they still have the 1 form division, this year, it eliminated.  If they change this format, USAT should broad cast it back in the summer for the instructors, ie me, to prepare the kids.

Sport Poomsae is not just "knowing the forms" but knowing the forms and executed it correctly, with proper stances, proper techniques..etc.  You just can't say to "oh..just do your form". Sport Poomsae is totally more technical and different.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 2, 2010)

Miles said:


> Bad example on my part! <bows>


 
Not necessarily. Would your example still hold true if the 46 year old in question was a first dan? Would they still need to know patterns for up to 7th dan?

The ITF breaks down patterns competition by rank as well as age, so it's not an issue with people learning patterns higher than what their rank requires. (You do generally learn 3 patterns per dan level, however, so if you compete a lot you could run into the problem of not knowing one of the required patterns, but that's another topic!)

Pax,

Chris


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## ATC (Feb 3, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> We didn't know, EVEN I, who competed in 1st Master in the last two years. I should clarify this, my instructor and I did not know about elimination of the 1 form format for the 10-13 year old blk blt.
> 
> Last year they still have the 1 form division, this year, it eliminated. If they change this format, USAT should broad cast it back in the summer for the instructors, ie me, to prepare the kids.
> 
> Sport Poomsae is not just "knowing the forms" but knowing the forms and executed it correctly, with proper stances, proper techniques..etc. You just can't say to "oh..just do your form". Sport Poomsae is totally more technical and different.


Last Nationals was this format and so was Team Trials. Also the 2008 Hamnadang that was in LA was this format as well. If you compete at the national level you should have known this format.

No the US Open did not use this format last year but the format was being use at the national events.

Yes you need to know the details of each form. If you don't you won't advance.


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## ATC (Feb 3, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Not necessarily. Would your example still hold true if the 46 year old in question was a first dan? Would they still need to know patterns for up to 7th dan?


Yes.


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## taekwondodo (Feb 3, 2010)

You missed my point.  

I do know there are two types of format:
1. regular form that was offered at last year National required kids to do 1 form at their rank
2. Competitive Poomsae=Sport Poomsae 

These were offered last year.  This year at State, Qualifiers and National there is only 1 type: Sport Poomsae.

My kids are not prepared for Sport Poomsae nor they are they interested in doing Sport Poomsae.  They are more interested in competing and training in 1 form at their rank.

Out of 60 black belt kids from 10-17 of age I only have 5 who are interested and passionate about learning forms and want to compete in Sport Poomsae.  Those I've been training them since last August.  The rest, they want to perform only 1 and have been training for 1 form.

Not EVERY one is passionate and want to participate in Sport Poomsae.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2010)

Miles said:


> The change is one in format.  It used to be that you competed in poomsae by performing an assigned poomsae (such as Koryo for 1st dan) based on rank.
> 
> Now the format is based not on rank, but on the competitor's age.  So for instance, as a 46yr old (I would be in the 1st Master's division), I need to know through Chonkwon (7th dan poomsae)-not too bad for someone who has trained for 35 yrs but what about the 46 yr old green belt who only needs to know Taeguek 5 for his next rank test?


So essentially, if  guy or gal starts taekwondo at the age of 38 and gets their first dan at the age of 42, goes to a competition to compete in forms, they need to know poomsae for first through seventh dan?  Even though they have been in the art for less time than a twenty eight year old fourth dan?  

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> We didn't know, EVEN I, who competed in 1st Master in the last two years. I should clarify this, my instructor and I did not know about elimination of the 1 form format for the 10-13 year old blk blt.
> 
> Last year they still have the 1 form division, this year, it eliminated. If they change this format, USAT should broad cast it back in the summer for the instructors, ie me, to prepare the kids.
> 
> Sport Poomsae is not just "knowing the forms" but knowing the forms and executed it correctly, with proper stances, proper techniques..etc. You just can't say to "oh..just do your form". Sport Poomsae is totally more technical and different.


 
They may know 'proper' stances and 'proper' techniques but do they know what they are for? Can they use them usefully in a SD situation? Can they actually even fight?


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## terryl965 (Feb 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> They may know 'proper' stances and 'proper' techniques but do they know what they are for? Can they use them usefully in a SD situation? Can they actually even fight?


 
Alot of them probaly not but there are some like Master Southwick that goes deep into every detail of any poomsae.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Alot of them probaly not but there are some like Master Southwick that goes deep into every detail of any poomsae.


 
It would be good to train with him, even when you don't know a particular kata/form you can still learn so much. It may be just me but I really can't see the point of going through the motions without learning the hows and whys.


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## Miles (Feb 3, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So essentially, if guy or gal starts taekwondo at the age of 38 and gets their first dan at the age of 42, goes to a competition to compete in forms, they need to know poomsae for first through seventh dan? Even though they have been in the art for less time than a twenty eight year old fourth dan?
> 
> Daniel


 
Yes, sir!  (Plus Taeguek 8)


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## ATC (Feb 3, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> You missed my point.
> 
> I do know there are two types of format:
> 1. regular form that was offered at last year National required kids to do 1 form at their rank
> ...


That is why there are local tournaments. You can still do what you want. Don't want to do sport poomsae then don't. Not sure what the point is. We only have 5 students out of 250 that do sport poomsae. So only those that want to do it do. The rest only do local tournaments or none at all. They just do the forms up to their belt.

The 5 that do sport poomsae and any new comers that want to take the sport poomsae class that is offered. This is free for student and is taught only twice a week.


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## ATC (Feb 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It would be good to train with him, even when you don't know a particular kata/form you can still learn so much. It may be just me but I really can't see the point of going through the motions without learning the hows and whys.


It is like any sport. Why do we play basketball, football, or soccer even though we don't know the proper techniques and how to use them like the pros? For the fun of it, you enjoy it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2010)

ATC said:


> It is like any sport. Why do we play basketball, football, or soccer even though we don't know the proper techniques and how to use them like the pros? For the fun of it, you enjoy it.


 
I have to disagree with you. When you play soccer, basketball etc you may not have the techniques of the pros but you know what the point of the game is ie in soccer to score goals and you know what to do to score goals, where the ball has to go etc. 
If you do kata/forms without knowing what the point is ie the self defence and fighting moves they are teaching you, all you are doing is waving your arms and legs around in pretty patterns.
You don't aimless wander around with a ball in your hand in soccer so you don't aimlessly wander around in a kata/form in martial arts.


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## d1jinx (Feb 3, 2010)

you know, I always had a problem with this.  I came up where you learned YOUR form.  not higher.  A first DAN was supposed to take the time between DANS to master that form along with the other things needed to know between ranks.  I see the Pros and Cons of this.  The Pro is, we get to actually learn forms that we couldnt learn until we were too old to actually do it.  The Cons, well simple, like I said people not taking the time to perfect a form.  Always looking to the Higher form to do.

That being said, I cheated as a child.  I watched the higher ranks do the forms and I practiced them at home.  I knew them 2 and 3 belts higher than my current rank and always had them perfected before i got that rank.  But this isnt for everyone.  Sure there were exceptions, but some dont need to be confused with more stuff.

And I know what most will say, they shouldnt compete then cause they're not ready.  Yes and NO.  I wont let someone compete in a sparring division if I feel they arent ready, but forms?!?!?!?  EVERYONE should compete in forms for one simple reason.... experience.  Just like public speaking, people should experience the feel.  It is part of your Martial Arts training.  To be confronted by an overwhelming emotional state and control your body and mind.  

"so local tournaments".... well, a regional is a local tournament.  No surprise there but there is absolutely nothing special about a regional qualifier.  I have been to local tournaments that were better run and had better competition.  Its just another event.  another oppurtunity to learn and control your emotions.

So where does that leave me?

good question.  I'ma have to figure it out.  I want everyone to enjoy the experience/terror of performing in front of people.... and I still want to keep my semi-traditional sense of your rank, your form.

rant over.


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## ATC (Feb 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I have to disagree with you. When you play soccer, basketball etc you may not have the techniques of the pros but you know what the point of the game is ie in soccer to score goals and you know what to do to score goals, where the ball has to go etc.
> If you do kata/forms without knowing what the point is ie the self defence and fighting moves they are teaching you, all you are doing is waving your arms and legs around in pretty patterns.
> You don't aimless wander around with a ball in your hand in soccer so you don't aimlessly wander around in a kata/form in martial arts.


Point taken but it is still the same. You know what a kick or punch is as well as what a block is, so you know a bit more than just simple arm and leg waving movements. Just like the other sports mentioned you know what each technique is for. You may not know why it is an inside block vs. a high block and such for each technique. So I still believe that my analogy holds true. Also the reason is still the same as well, for fun. The only reason to compete in any sport is for fun.


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## KELLYG (Feb 3, 2010)

At the risk of sounding thick in the head.  Sport poomse if you are a 45 to 48 years old, and a blue belt and wanting to compete in sports poomse you would have to know taguek 1 thru taguek 8 and black belt forms up to 7th dan?


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## terryl965 (Feb 3, 2010)

KELLYG said:


> At the risk of sounding thick in the head. Sport poomse if you are a 45 to 48 years old, and a blue belt and wanting to compete in sports poomse you would have to know taguek 1 thru taguek 8 and black belt forms up to 7th dan?


 

No it is not for every belt and age just that certain 14-17 and 18-32 I believe.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2010)

ATC said:


> Point taken but it is still the same. You know what a kick or punch is as well as what a block is, so you know a bit more than just simple arm and leg waving movements. Just like the other sports mentioned you know what each technique is for. You may not know why it is an inside block vs. a high block and such for each technique. So I still believe that my analogy holds true. Also the reason is still the same as well, for fun. The only reason to compete in any sport is for fun.


 

It's very frustrating, you know, when all people can see is a block or a kick/punch. This is what learning the kata/forms mean. 




 
Knowing how to put your movements to good use is more than good fun, it could save your life, it's also the whole point of learning martial arts. It may be fun to learn to wave your arms and legs around but in that case why not take up gymnastics instead of truncating a perfectly good martial art and turning into a mockery of itself? Do Taebo or Boxercise. Martial arts 'lite', great fun but absolutely no use to man nor beast.

I'm not getting at you, ATC, I just find martial arts 'lite' so frustrating and basically pointless. The reasons for going into a sport are many though not just fun, I won't elaborate on any thoughts on that as it would distract from the OP.


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## ATC (Feb 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's very frustrating, you know, when all people can see is a block or a kick/punch. This is what learning the kata/forms mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the beauty of life. Not everyone wants nor gets the same things out of something. We should not let that frustrate us. We should understand and appreciate this and help each other do what it is that they are seeking.

I instruct many students and each are different. Some are there just because the parents need something for them to do. Some are there because their friends are there. Some because they want to get in shape and yet others because they like to compete and so on and so on...

Then there are different levels of each reason also. You may have two people that want to learn SD. But one wants to learn SD because he is being bullied or abused and needs to defend himself. The other may want to learn SD simply for his own pride. Both want to learn SD but one has a real need. Both should be taught but because one has a real need, he may take his training more seriously than the guy that just want to say he knows something. Teach both and let them get what they want out of the teachings.


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2010)

It's fine teaching them what they want as long as they understand what it is they are learning. The forms/pattern 'dancing ( I do mean dancing, someone posted a clip up recently) isn't going to teach your child how to defend themselves. As long as going through the motions however good is understood not to help you defend yourself I have no problem but I've had far too many people come through our club, our children are posted in and out with their parents, that have been doing this sort or kata/TKD lite and sincerely believe they can defend themselves and are over confident to the point of being dangerous about their abilities. They can do the fancy high kicks but can't spar, fight or even do any SD. I had a lady come in the other night, thinks shes being doing kick boxing for two years and would like to try a fight in a competition, she didn't know how to kick or punch but thought she could, she'd been doing boxercise.
If the instructors explain exactly what it is they are doing and the limitations I have no problems but I don't need more 10 year old high grades coming in and thinking they are all that when they haven't even got a basic idea.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I had a lady come in the other night, thinks shes being doing kick boxing for two years and would like to try a fight in a competition, she didn't know how to kick or punch but thought she could, she'd been doing boxercise.


One of my son's friends gets boxercise daily; every time he takes the family's 90 pound/no-fat American boxer for a walk.



Tez3 said:


> If the instructors explain exactly what it is they are doing and the limitations I have no problems but I don't need more 10 year old high grades coming in and thinking they are all that when they haven't even got a basic idea.


Couldn't have said it better myself!

Daniel


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## Stac3y (Feb 4, 2010)

So, in sport poomse, you do the whole set of forms, one after another? Does everyone do them at the same time? How does it work?


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> One of my son's friends gets boxercise daily; every time he takes the family's 90 pound/no-fat American boxer for a walk.
> 
> 
> Couldn't have said it better myself!
> ...


 
I don't think he's doing the sort of boxercise that done here lol. It's aerobics with punching and kicking movements thrown in. No instruction on punching or how to kick but the ads for it says you can learn to defend yourself.




 
what you do should be made plain with no room for misunderstandings that could cost you your life.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think he's doing the sort of boxercise that done here lol.


I know I had assumed that you were talking about what we call cardio kickboxing.  I just couldn't resist the pun.



Tez3 said:


> what you do should be made plain with no room for misunderstandings that could cost you your life.


QFT.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I know I had assumed that you were talking about what we call cardio kickboxing. I just couldn't resist the pun.
> 
> 
> QFT.
> ...


 

Yeah but I had to put in it words for those who would then jump on it and use it to beat me over the head lol! 

I suppose I'm very simple when it comes to martial arts. The only question I think that counts is 'can you fight' lol! If you can't it's not martial arts but thats me!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2010)

What about throwing chi balls?


Daniel


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What about throwing chi balls?
> 
> 
> Daniel


 
Hey I've seen a no touch knock out with my own eyes and it was amazing....in all the wrong ways lol.


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## ATC (Feb 4, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's fine teaching them what they want as long as they understand what it is they are learning. The forms/pattern 'dancing ( I do mean dancing, someone posted a clip up recently) isn't going to teach your child how to defend themselves. As long as going through the motions however good is understood not to help you defend yourself I have no problem but I've had far too many people come through our club, our children are posted in and out with their parents, that have been doing this sort or kata/TKD lite and sincerely believe they can defend themselves and are over confident to the point of being dangerous about their abilities. They can do the fancy high kicks but can't spar, fight or even do any SD. I had a lady come in the other night, thinks shes being doing kick boxing for two years and would like to try a fight in a competition, she didn't know how to kick or punch but thought she could, she'd been doing boxercise.
> If the instructors explain exactly what it is they are doing and the limitations I have no problems but I don't need more 10 year old high grades coming in and thinking they are all that when they haven't even got a basic idea.


I agree with every point you have stated. But when we look at it for what it is, it is not the students fault but the schools, teachers, and instructors that allowed or gave that false sense of knowledge and ability. If the student went in wanting to know how to defend themselves but got MA light, and was made to believe he got something else, then whose fault is that? I say not the students.


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2010)

ATC said:


> I agree with every point you have stated. But when we look at it for what it is, it is not the students fault but the schools, teachers, and instructors that allowed or gave that false sense of knowledge and ability. If the student went in wanting to know how to defend themselves but got MA light, and was made to believe he got something else, then whose fault is that? I say not the students.


 
I was taking it as a given that everybody would know it was the instructors fault. There are no bad students, there are only bad instructors.


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## ATC (Feb 4, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I was taking it as a given that everybody would know it was the instructors fault. There are no bad students, there are only bad instructors.


Only if the instructor is promising something that he is not giving.

Any instructor that is teaching TaeBo or Cardio Kick Boxing and stating that it is SD or some MA that will help protect you should be shot. However if that is what they teach and they tell you that this is only an exercise class and not intended to help defend or protect you, but the student thinks other wise. Well then shame on that student and not the instructor.

Also I have seen my fair share of bad students. I have heard that saying many time myself and use to believe it, but I have since changed my mind. Any student that is forced to do what he or she does not want to do can be a bad student. Then there are just rotten people that can make a bad student.


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2010)

ATC said:


> Only if the instructor is promising something that he is not giving.
> 
> Any instructor that is teaching TaeBo or Cardio Kick Boxing and stating that it is SD or some MA that will help protect you should be shot. However if that is what they teach and they tell you that this is only an exercise class and not intended to help defend or protect you, but the student thinks other wise. Well then shame on that student and not the instructor.
> 
> Also I have seen my fair share of bad students. I have heard that saying many time myself and use to believe it, but I have since changed my mind. Any student that is forced to do what he or she does not want to do can be a bad student. Then there are just rotten people that can make a bad student.


 
The rotten people make excellent students depending on what you're teaching lol!
those forced to do something aren't bad students they are sad students and I try to be as sympathetic as possible with them, finding something they will like to learn. The joy of doing MMA and TMA is that we can always find something students like doing.

I find people that do martial arts lite are under the impression, given by their instructors and  also  implied with the term 'martial arts' along with the name of the school/club,, the wearing of Gis, blackbelts etc, that they are doing a martial art that they can use for self defence.
I've seen too many that can do the gymnastics but not the fighting.


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## FieldDiscipline (Feb 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> those forced to do something aren't bad students they are sad students



That's a great phrase.


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