# EPAK Weapons Techniques VS FMA Weapons Techniques.



## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 1, 2006)

I have been cross training in FMA with some of the best instructors out there for about 5 years now (_originally Serrada with Al McLuckie then Inosanto blend with Francis Fong and now and forever Pekiti Tirsia Kali & Doce Pares Escrima with Zach Whitson_) and the more I study these weapons based system the more I am convinced that they are superior to the EPAK WEAPONS techniques *only*.

I think that you could pull off a EPAK weapon techniques against a drunk & stupid attacker however, if they have any clue about anything the EPAK techniques will get you killed.  I agree that you need to expore the what if phase a bit but I still do not see them as being practical or effective against a trained individual.

I think that one of the biggest difference is that in FMA  is that you spend a great deal of time learning how offensively to use the stick/knife and I am a firm believer in if you understand how to use it you will be better prepared how to defend against it.  We in EPAK do this with our empty hand but not with weapons.  Maybe Mr parker was heading that direction with 6.

So I think when it some to using and defending against weapons FMA wins hands down.

Anyone think I am nuts?


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## hongkongfooey (Sep 1, 2006)

Boy are you gonna get some flak for that one!


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## HKphooey (Sep 1, 2006)

I find the two arts compliment each other very well.  I enjoy working the two together into my training.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 1, 2006)

I thought about this for a while and yeah,  I mean hell yeah , I knew that I was goona get a bunch of crap from some folks out there but I say bring it on!

And yes then do complement each other very very well and I know that a bunch of the EPAK community does cross train in both so this post should be pretty interesting.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2006)

Maybe the best thing is to simply recognize where the strengths and weaknesses in each art lie.  Every art has them both, no art is the ultimate in everything.  An art that specializes in weapons will give you a better understanding and stronger skills with that weapon, both in fighting with it and defending against it.  An art that incorporates weapons as a portion of a larger curriculum will never give you the same level of skills with that weapon, but that doesn't mean the skills and techniques can't be useful.

That being said, I understand the point you are making.  While not the same as EPAK, I have always had very strong doubts about the weapons defenses found in Tracy kenpo.  Personally, if I decided to get serious about training to fight against weapons like knives and sticks, I'd find a good teacher in the Fillipine arts.


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## Carol (Sep 1, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Maybe the best thing is to simply recognize where the strengths and weaknesses in each art lie. Every art has them both, no art is the ultimate in everything. An art that specializes in weapons will give you a better understanding and stronger skills with that weapon, both in fighting with it and defending against it. An art that incorporates weapons as a portion of a larger curriculum will never give you the same level of skills with that weapon, but that doesn't mean the skills and techniques can't be useful.


 
I agree.  

Ultimately I think whether X is superior to Y depends very heavily on circumstances, interests, and goals.  Personally, I have an interest in the FMAs for the same reason I like marksmanship and....even swimming, for that matter.  All have a practical, lifesaving purpose...and (IMO) a helluva lot of fun.


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## MJS (Sep 1, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I have been cross training in FMA with some of the best instructors out there for about 5 years now (_originally Serrada with Al McLuckie then Inosanto blend with Francis Fong and now and forever Pekiti Tirsia Kali & Doce Pares Escrima with Zach Whitson_) and the more I study these weapons based system the more I am convinced that they are superior to the EPAK WEAPONS techniques *only*.
> 
> I think that you could pull off a EPAK weapon techniques against a drunk & stupid attacker however, if they have any clue about anything the EPAK techniques will get you killed. I agree that you need to expore the what if phase a bit but I still do not see them as being practical or effective against a trained individual.
> 
> ...


 
I've heard some people say that if you want to really understand the weapon, you need to train in a weapon based art.  I agree very much with that.  This is not to say that Kenpo is not capable of defending weapon attacks, just that, IMO, you'll get a much deeper understanding training in a FMA such as Kali, Escrima, Arnis, and PT.  

I've been training in Arnis for a while now and I have to say that it has certainly opened my eyes to an entire new level of understanding the stick and blade.  

While I enjoy the Kenpo weapon defenses, I tend to lean a bit more towards the FMAs when it comes to dealing with weapons.

Mike


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## Blindside (Sep 1, 2006)

I don't have any problem saying that the weapon defenses that I learned from studying Kali are better than those I learned in Kenpo (EPAK & Tracy).  One art begins instruction assuming a competant weapon bearing opponent, the other an incompetant unarmed opponent.  The arts have different strengths, I don't think I have ever learned a lapel grab defense in Kali, probably because in a blade culture it would be frakkin' stupid to grab someones lapel without first dealing with their weapon hand.  I can say that the unarmed vs armed Kali techniques work for me at a much higher percentage rate than the Kenpo ones do, when training against uncooperative training partners.  

I don't believe one art is great at everything, and I really don't believe one instructor is great at everything.  Kenpo is a great generalist art (with a focus on unarmed), but if I'm serious about learning a particular aspect (like weapons, like grappling) I'll go find someone who has put serious time into area and see their perspective.    

Lamont


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## bujuts (Sep 1, 2006)

I think it also depends on how familiar one is with the kenpo knife system to begin with. Many only deal with the prescribed knife defense techniques in the brown cirriculum, etc., and attempt to extrapolate from their and devise a certain understanding of kenpo knife work.

My own experience has been very limited in practing against FMA'ers, but I _have _seen over and over a fundamental difference in how kenpo knife fighter deals with a knife attack vs. how a FMA'er knife fighter deals with a knife attack. But, my understanding of the kenpo knife system is also far greater than my understanding of FMA systems, so obviously my opinions are skewed.

The knife system in kenpo parallels that of empty handed kenpo. The blade is not the primary weapon you need to deal with. The man is the primary weapon. Without skeletal control, you will be in a game of cat and mouse, blade against blade, and in this game the FMA'er excels, and he will dice you like an Easter ham. Kenpo is an attacking system, it works to dominate the spinal ring and control variables. Cuts are not designed to cut, but to kill. To the kenpo knife practitioner, the strategy to "defang the snake" is largely a potentially a dangerous one in a truly hostile environment - it simply takes to long to effect a kill.

Mechanically, I have never seen FMA capable of delivering the physical power the kenpo can deliver. Now at first, one would argue that a knife fight does not require power, and it doesn't if cutting flesh is your only consideration. But, as I stated before, the knife is only part of the threat. Lack of bracing angles, quick and darting footwork, and any in ability to control the skeleton may render one in trouble if the attacker is using his mass - not a typical thing in the concept of the knife "dual", which is a dominant paradigm in martial arts from historically bladed cultures.

I believe we should take nothing for granted. Many knife against knife practitioners train as though the knife is the only thing they have to deal with, or worse, they deal with a single attack. As another example, a close quarter, fast, shanking prison-type attack is not only tough to deal with, but requires that you take on a rushing mass that is not so different from a tackle. Even if superior blade work provides allows you to deliver a fatal cut, you still have 150 - 200lbs of meth-driven mass coming at you like a freight train (who says the attacker is cunning and strategic?).

The thrust of my post here is skeletal control. Domination of the physical mass is the priority in kenpo, empty hand or knife. Of my brief experiences playing with others familiar with FMA work, "playing the game" with them got me killed nearly every time - they out parried me, out cut me, out maneuvered me, and simply played the cat and mouse game better. When adhering to kenpo principles, if my first motion stuffed their attack, they became meat with me being the butcher. Once you've initiated action and if you're successful at thwarting the first cut, stab, etc., then any second motion should not be an option available to them.  Out of Range, in Range, Contact Penetration, Impact Manipulation,  Contact Manipulation, Contact Maintenance, Release, and Extraction - same strategy as the empty hand.  The power generated via the neutral bow and proper footwork, coupled with proper use of 12 Points (more on that some other time) and an intent to kill, should dominate their action. No retreat or side stepping should be able to match your conquest for their spine.

So, its a different approach I believe. Its may seem pretty hairy because it requires 100% commitment. Also, it requires absolutely correct basics in one's kenpo. Small errors in empty handed kenpo become enormous errors when we're dealing with the blade. For that reason, the kenpo knife system isn't formally introduced until many years into the kenpo journey, in so far as our group is concerned.

So, one is not better than the other, I don't believe. But one should measure apples to apples. The FMA systems abound, and there aren't alot who have spent several decades in the kenpo knife system proper. As a result, many attempt to bring the knife into kenpo by hybridizing it with what is clearly the most prominent knife work around - FMA arts. Bear in mind, though, there are significant differences, and the kenpo knife system has been proven 100% effective in scenarios as deadly as deadly gets.

This is a great discussion. I will hold true to the knife as I learn it from my kenpo teacher, but am very interested to hear the FMA side of things from a kenpoists perspective. Great topic. Thanks for posting.

Salute,

Steven Brown
Universal Kenpo Federation


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## Carol (Sep 1, 2006)

Steve I see the logic, and the reasons for what you are saying and I think they are valid.  I don't think it's fair for me to be critical on a set of techs I have not been trained on. 

On the other hand, one of the things I have come to appreciate about FMA training is that weapons work is done from day one.  I have a friend who trains in Kali and Silat that has partnered with me a few times for some workouts.    He has improved my stickwork, but he also intensifies my focus on how I should never forget I am training with a weapon.    "These could be knives or swords," he says of our Smak-Stiks.  

It will be a few years before I'll reach a level where I am trainined on Kenpo weapons techs.  I'd like learning a little bit about weapons defenses before I'm a brown or black.  I don't think Kenpo is lacking, nor do I want to change EPAK or the way its taught.    Its more a matter of personal interests that are outside the scope of the art...whether those interests are working with sticks and blades or throwing some lead downrange at a target.  There is a lot of good material to learn and great people to train with, and I've been enjoying the journey very much.


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## HKphooey (Sep 1, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> I think it also depends on how familiar one is with the kenpo knife system to begin with. Many only deal with the prescribed knife defense techniques in the brown cirriculum, etc., and attempt to extrapolate from their and devise a certain understanding of kenpo knife work.
> 
> My own experience has been very limited in practing against FMA'ers, but I _have _seen over and over a fundamental difference in how kenpo knife fighter deals with a knife attack vs. how a FMA'er knife fighter deals with a knife attack. But, my understanding of the kenpo knife system is also far greater than my understanding of FMA systems, so obviously my opinions are skewed.
> 
> ...


 
Good post!  But there are many proficient in the FMA's who can generate just as much, if not more, power than a kenpo artist.


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## arnisador (Sep 1, 2006)

I appreciate this detailed post, *bujuts*. Indeed, sometimes a front-on all-out assault is a reasonable option (or the only one that remains). Much of the time, though, one risks getting a knife in the belly. If I had to, I'd take a punch to the face to deliver a thrust to the ribs.

Controlling the spine makes sense to disrupt the power of a punch. But a knife doesn't need that power. Everyone who has cut himself shaving knows it doesn't take much pressure to break skin. I could cut myself shaving while someone was trying to punch or control me. I could also cut someone else.

If I have enough room to play the defang the snake nickel-and-dime-you-to-death game, it's very hard to defend against (if you can't run). I can stay at just-touch-you range and get in enough cuts to wear you down. If I'm forced to close range, I can launch a stab at central body mass. Many blocks will still end up having the blade--which reaches several inches beyond the end of the hand--either reach the body or slide along the blocking arm. In addition, footwork is a huge part of what we do.



			
				bujuts said:
			
		

> Once you've initiated action and if you're successful at thwarting the first cut, stab, etc., then any second motion should not be an option available to them.



The prison-style assault is indeed dangerous. The FMA-trained attacker does two things that are hard to deal with: Redirecting the blade on-the-fly, including what I believe you refer to as using the "reverse motion," and strongly integrating the non-weapon hand  to block your blocks ("counter the counter"). Blocking or otherwise reacting to your attempts to block/control the weapon is absolutely fundamental to the system. We don't expect the first strike to land. (It's great if it does, of course.) We are often throwing an attack intended to provoke a predictable response, which we hope to then counter. That may be as simple as shortening the swing to cut the arm rather than the body, or as sophisticated as a left hand trap of both of your arms. (In using "you/your" here _I _don't mean to imply that I could necessarily defeat _you_. It's just easier than typing "my opponent" each time.) The important point is that if we are equally skilled, you'll be controlling me while I'm controlling you...but when my controls or other techniques involve my right hand, they cut.

Kenpoists hit hard, in my experience. The empty-hand FMA strikes are, as a rule, not as hard. But you can't trade a hard hit for a stab. Even Mike Tyson couldn't count on a one-punch KO.

My point is, while you train to deny me my second option as you say, for me that second option is a built-in part of the first option. It's a chess game...and in chess, the winner is the person who makes the next-to-last mistake.

The empty-hand FMA response to a knife typically involves side-stepping and control of the weapon hand, followed by disruption of the opponent's balance, then striking such as knees to the thigh and/or a disarm. We block in a particular way (often the _palusut_). But, we also figure that even a very experienced FMAer is at a _huge _disadvantage against even an inexperienced knifer.

Any art can be successful on any given day, of course. But most hard styles seem to have trouble with the knife, in my experience. I'd rather get a karateka than an aikidoka.



			
				bujuts said:
			
		

> the kenpo knife system has been proven 100% effective in scenarios as deadly as deadly gets.


When?


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## bujuts (Sep 2, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> When?



I'm speaking of USMC and Spec Ops military combatants with whom I've head the pleasure of sharing mat time.  They are direct, personal sources, and with nothing to gain from fanfare.  I'll say up front it wasn't me doing any of these things of which I write, and pray it never will be.  All that aside, the system is what it is.  You made some good points, though, and I will address those in another post shortly.

Salute, great discussion.  Thanks for the input.

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Carol (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve, 

Your post brings up questions to my mind as to how practical the techs are.  As a desk jockey, I'm not an elite fighter nor are the folks I train with.  

I'm also left wondering about absolutely correct basics.  I'm not doubting their importance (I can hear Doc's voice now...) but I'm wondering about their application.  

Pavement cracks, ice/snow, rain/mud, gravel, uneven terrain and the like are all realistic variables to encounter, and all would all be enough to throw off one's basics (stances, at the very least). 

Granted, these techs are not taught at the sea-level ranks where I currenlty am...but I'm still wondering how practical they really are?   Does this require our nations finest soldiers practing on an absolutley flat mat to be done successfully?  

I'm not trying to attack the Kenpo techs at all, I'm just trying to understand everything that's being talked about here.   

Thanks for listening, 

Carol


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 2, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> I think it also depends on how familiar one is with the kenpo knife system to begin with. Many only deal with the prescribed knife defense techniques in the brown cirriculum, etc., and attempt to extrapolate from their and devise a certain understanding of kenpo knife work.
> 
> "What EPAK knife system?  Where in EPAK does it teach you to use a knife?  I know that there are a few knife techniques that give you some ideas and that "some" of the weapons teachiques can be be use for different weapons. (ie storm works against lance or maybe rod work for storm.  You got to play with that one
> 
> ...


 

I think you may want to try to look at some FMA guys a bit more


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 2, 2006)

I have heard some of the termonology that you spoke about but I could not place it.  Your under Mr Pick's line so that explains alot.  From what I know (which is very dam little) he worked with Mr Parker on developing a EPAK knife system so that explains the EPAK knive system you are refering to.  However, I do not know where either of them got thier training from. (question for Doc here) I do remember hearig that Mr Pick was a Mariene  so maybe he got some of his knive training there.  (HOORAHH!!!!)  I have never seen it but I would be interesting is checking it out.  His reputation is very very solid and I here he hits pretty dam hard!  Does he have any videos out on his knive work?


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## bujuts (Sep 2, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I think you may want to try to look at some FMA guys a bit more



I agree 100%.  If I wasn't clear enough before, I'll be the first to say my understanding of FMA is largely an ignorant one, so I'd be the last to make any conclusions of FMA'ers and therir methods.  I only know what I do and its bloody hard just trying to keep up with kenpo as it is, LOL.

My own solution to a skilled knife fighter is my my ability to sprint, or my friend Dan Wesson. 

Salute,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 2, 2006)

Excellent point that i forgot to mention...


RUN LIKE HELL


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## Brother John (Sep 2, 2006)

I remember reading an article in Black Belt Magazine in which Mr. Parker said that he really likes what 'they' do in the FMA...
but he disagreed strongly with the practice of crossing ones arms while using a blade.....

gee...wonder why

Your Brother
John


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think the FMA guys cross thier amrs any more then EPAK guys.  If and when you do there are countering methods to deal with that such as using the weapon (stick or knife) for a leaver to escape.


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## Brother John (Sep 2, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I don't think the FMA guys cross thier amrs any more then EPAK guys. If and when you do there are countering methods to deal with that such as using the weapon (stick or knife) for a leaver to escape.


The point isn't really that the arms cross, but that they cross with a weapon.
I've studied Modern Arnis....and yes, the arms do cross with a weapon (KNIFE) in the hands. In Kenpo we may, at times, cross the arms past one another.....but not with a naked Blade in one or both hands. 
That's the point. 
Countering isn't the point, the point is the edged/pointed weapon weaving with your other arm, near the elbow joint and the artery and the tendons of the forearm. Just not good practice I think.

Your Brother
John


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 2, 2006)

I understand your point here however Modern Arnis holds the knive in the slashing /cutting manner where as other ststems like PT Kali holds the blade more like a ice pick with the blade in witch in turn create the "margin for error" position that we always refer to in EPAK so some of what you are refering to is mute.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2006)

Crossada is a FMA technique. The risk mentioned is real, and yet there are also advantages to it. We don't usually cross the two arms as close as you might think--the knife may be cutting at the bicep while the guiding hand is on the wrist. For weapon against weapon, the guiding hand may be very important--if I cut your sword arm and your sword flies out at me, OUCH!

Other things that look like a crossed position, though, may just be a matter of practicing to be able to use the weapon from any position it ends up in. After a wide swing, it's on the other side of your body if it misses (closed position)...you still must be ready to strike with it!


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## bujuts (Sep 3, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> ...Controlling the spine makes sense to disrupt the power of a punch. But a knife doesn't need that power. Everyone who has cut himself shaving knows it doesn't take much pressure to break skin. I could cut myself shaving while someone was trying to punch or control me. I could also cut someone else.
> 
> If I have enough room to play the defang the snake nickel-and-dime-you-to-death game, it's very hard to defend against (if you can't run). I can stay at just-touch-you range and get in enough cuts to wear you down. If I'm forced to close range, I can launch a stab at central body mass. Many blocks will still end up having the blade--which reaches several inches beyond the end of the hand--either reach the body or slide along the blocking arm. In addition, footwork is a huge part of what we do.
> 
> ...


I should clarify is that an in empty hand scenario my first and primary objective (after running, guns, etc. are not available options, obviously) is to deflect and control that weapon.  I 100% concur that it would be a monumentally bad idea to allow anyone - FMA or not - the ability to use that weapon whilst I was executing said manipulation of the skeleton.  Control of the articulating joints that allow for that weapon to be used - wrist, elbow, shoulder, hips - is critical. Three basic D's apply - Deflect, Dominate, and Destroy.  Me deflecting the blade is not enough.  If I do not dominate, the knife fighter is still a knife fighter, and I'm in a "knife fight" which I will lose.  Domination means just that - total physical domination.  Destruction is the easy part, really.

Easier said than done, though.  That's why I spent time at the range yesterday.  Nothing like a well placed triple tap.

Salute, good discussion.

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Hand Sword (Sep 4, 2006)

Also, keep in mind that the delivery of the knife attack in the Kenpo techniques is not the way trained or untrained people will attack you.


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## Brother John (Sep 4, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:


> I understand your point here however Modern Arnis holds the knive in the slashing /cutting manner where as other ststems like PT Kali holds the blade more like a ice pick with the blade in witch in turn create the "margin for error" position that we always refer to in EPAK so some of what you are refering to is mute.


I'm not certain how the angle that the blade is held in while passing between the arms in combat (where they can be struck or pinned together by the attacker while this motion happens) renders my point "moot".

could you explain some more?

I did like Arnisador's explanation: He also stated that there IS a tactical concern with in this consideration, but that there is also a tactical advantage it can give as well. 

Your Brother
John


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 4, 2006)

I still think that if you are going to be able to deal with a knife or stick then you should get some FMA training.  Some of the EPAK technique are very useful however I just think that there are better ways.  I think that there are people out there that can help you modify the kvife techniques so that they can work (Zach Whitson comes to mind).


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## Brother John (Sep 4, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:


> I still think that if you are going to be able to deal with a knife or stick then you should get some FMA training. Some of the EPAK technique are very useful however I just think that there are better ways. I think that there are people out there that can help you modify the kvife techniques so that they can work (Zach Whitson comes to mind).


No doubt.
Just wondered if you could explain why it's not a tactical hazard to cross your arms with a knife in one or both hands.

Your Brother
John


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## bujuts (Sep 4, 2006)

Now that we're on the subject of fights which we will likely never get into, lets step into the realm of the even less likely - multiple assailants.  How does the FMA strategy handle multiple attackers.

In my mind, first off, bleeding one out gets to be a bad idea.  I'll let it go from there, interested to hear the responses.

Its not entirely unrealistic, just improbable.  Doesn't have to be multiple knife attacks, necessarily, just consider it a multiple assailant deal in which you've deemed killing necessary.

Your thoughts, fellow MA's?

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Blindside (Sep 5, 2006)

I study Pekiti Tirsia Kali, so my response won't reflect what other FMAs would likely do.  PTK is designed as a close range art, where close range is defined to be inside of the normal slashing distance, equivelent to the HKE (headbutts, knees, and elbows) distance of some JKD lineages.  It is also where you can acheive some level of control of the opponents weapon limbs and body movement by checking dimensional zones.  Preferred finishes are thrusts to vital areas, but enroute to those finishes are disabling cuts to limbs.  These disabling cuts are usually acheived by the live hand pushing the opponents limb, with pulling back agains the limb with the blade, this is where PTK prefers the reverse grip, blade in pattern (for a small blade), it allows extremely powerful cuts at close range.  This type of cutting action is commonly used against the wrist or tricep, and is used as a terminal cut against the neck.

So with multiple attackers you should need see movement (footwork is life), and the lone person will probably initiate an entry on a peson of their choosing.  Disable the weapon limb, thrust several times and then move on.  The disabled limb should hopefully keep that person out of the fight.  Other options include "hostage taking" of an opponent for cover in order to retreat or against opponents ranged weapons.

Lamont


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## Ranger73 (Feb 27, 2007)

I feel that Sayoc Kali compliments EPAK very nicely. The best thing about Knowing Kenpo is the ability to understand motion and how to make it work for you no matter what system you look at.


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