# Mu Duk Kwan, Wha?????!!!!



## Kaygee (Jan 1, 2013)

I went to a Tae Kwon Do school who states that their style is Mu Duk Kwan.
This deeply confuses me, because my old Tang Soo Do school's style was Mu Duk Kwan.

This Tae Kwon Do school has all of the same hyungs ( All Gi Cho Hyungs, all Pyung Ahn Hyungs and even Passai) that we practiced at my old Tang Soo Do school as well.

How is it possible that two different arts have the same "style"? 

Thanks!


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## jks9199 (Jan 1, 2013)

There are others who can be more specific with the details -- but the Korean martial arts went by several different names along the way and through various splits and mergers or unifications and schisms.  As I recall what I've read or heard, Mu Du Kwan was one school or training hall.  At some point along the way -- some member schools went to the TKD label, others stuck with Tang Soo Do.  Also, as I understand it "Tang Soo Do" is merely the Korean pronunciation/spelling of "karate".  Of course -- I'm more than open to correction or elaboration, because there are some folks here who can certainly school me on these issues.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 1, 2013)

This has been explained many times in many threads, and at least once in one of your threads.

GGM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan after the liberation of Korea. The Kwan is the school, not the style taught. Moo Duk Kwan means "School of Martial Virtue". The style originally taught was Tang Soo Do which is Korean for "China Hand Way" or, essentially, "Karate" as it was called in Japan. 
When the early efforts to unify the Kwans were begun, GGM Hwang Kee joined, and it became TKD MDK. Then he and some of his students left, going back to teaching TSD MDK, those that remained continued to teach TKD MDK. Our school is descended from this branch, through GM Wang H "Bobby" Kim. TSD then was renamed Soo Bak Do Moo Duk Kwan after knowledge from an ancient book, purportedly relating techniques from Soo Bak, was obtained and incorporated into the system.

The three groups (TSD MDK, TKD MDK, SBD MDK) have continued, and continued to branch, which means you will find schools using any of the names teaching various curriculum, including some that teach the KKW curriculum.

A full discussion of the details surrounding each of the events would require a moderately sized book.


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## Kaygee (Jan 1, 2013)

LoL!!

Wow!

Are there any other martial arts out there with a crazy history of breaking up and branching off and changing names like MDK has?


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## Kaygee (Jan 1, 2013)

And let me make sure that I am understanding this correctly.

So I was at a Tang Soo Do School that was MDK.
I could go to this Tae Kwon Do school, and because it is MDK, it will most likely be the same curriculum that my Tang Soo Do school had?

Or am I off base here?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 1, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> LoL!!
> 
> Wow!
> 
> Are there any other martial arts out there with a crazy history of breaking up and branching off and changing names like MDK has?



Um... pretty much all of them...


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## jks9199 (Jan 1, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Um... pretty much all of them...



What he said...

Most arts are pretty fractured over time...


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 1, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> And let me make sure that I am understanding this correctly.
> 
> So I was at a Tang Soo Do School that was MDK.
> I could go to this Tae Kwon Do school, and because it is MDK, it will most likely be the same curriculum that my Tang Soo Do school had?
> ...



You are off base.

If they're teaching TKD MDK, then exactly what they teach will depend on (amoung other things) exactly when that brach split from the trunk. It would most likely be after the first unification (but not necessarily, since it could have been a name change without a curriculum change). But immediately after the unification first began, schools continued to teach their own curriculum while the combined curriculum was being developed and agreed upon. This eventually led to the palgwe poomsae. So that TKD MDK school might teach the original TSD MDK curriculum (pyung am forms mostly) or it could teach the original unification curriculum (palgwe poomsae, mostly), the unification curriculum (taegeuk poomsae), or any combination of these, plus additional material as added by the leades of that particular branch.

Tracing the lineage of the school back to GGM Hwang Kee will give you some idea when they split off, but that's still not going to conclusively determine exactly what they teach. The only way to learn that is to go train.


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## Kinghercules (Jan 8, 2013)

LOL!I was confuse with this as well awhile back.  I had notice that we were TKD MDK but we didnt do any of the MDK forms.  So I had to ask and thats when I learned that there were different branches of MDK and bascally from what Ive learned is that it all depends on what the instuctor wants to teach.


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 1, 2013)

Dirty Dog has done a good job at giving, as he inferred, a brief explanation of this.

KingHercules, as your lineage is through Ki Whang KIM, your lineage is a bit more complex than the observation of when the split from the MDK occurred.  Since Ki Whang KIM was Shudokan Karateka, there is a heavy influence in his lineage of this, albeit blended with MDK Tang Soo Do.


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## DMcHenry (Aug 6, 2013)

Don't forget the Moo Duk Kwan started off as Hwa Soo Do, then Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, and Soo Bahk Do.   I have known of some TKD MDK dojangs that were same as TSD, others were modern and followed the Kukki-TKD curriculum.   As said above, they could all trace their lineage back to GM Hwang (thus saying they were MDK) but yes it depended when they broke away or if they kept evolving with the rest of the TKD movement.


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## DennisBreene (Aug 7, 2013)

To add to the confusion for others; during the unification process, Tae Kwan Do became Korea's overarching designation for all empty hand fighting if I have my facts correct. In effect your school designates Tae Kwon Do ie, Korean "Karate" the Moo Duk Kwan School the Tang Soo Do style. GM Hwang wrote 2 books about Tang Soo Do which have a fairly complete discussion of the evolution of his school (and his various attempts at arriving at a name). To further complicate things historically GM Kim Ki Hwang was asked to be the US liaison to Korea's Moo Duk Kwan Association and was the leading Dan in the 1970's and later. His style was in the Moo Duk Kwan School but was not Tang Soo Do. So many of us older practitioners can trace our lineage from our masters to Kim Ki Hwang to Hwang Ki even though there are style variations in the process.


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## Don Daly (Nov 9, 2013)

I believe that GM Kim Ki Hwang also had some kung fu background and so some of the  additional forms he taught were unique to his branch of Tang Soo Do.  GM Chung Wha Young taught us a form in Denver called Sang Gook Kwon that I believe was one of these.


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## Don Daly (Nov 9, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> LoL!!
> 
> Wow!
> 
> Are there any other martial arts out there with a crazy history of breaking up and branching off and changing names like MDK has?



Yes, there are several Traditional Korean styles that originally joined the unification movement of Tae Kwon Do until they found out that they would have to give up their heritage of forms and techniques that made them special and essentially become one of General Choi's schools.  Then several Grandmasters and a few of there most loyal students left the Tae Kwon Do movement while the rest of their students stayed.  Most of the students who stayed have lost there original identities although some still have the old names.  Besides Moo Duk Kwan, small groups of Ji Do Kwan, Yun Moo Kwan, etc left the Tae Kwon Do Unification.  In addition a few of those who stayed still kept their original forms as well as learning the new but most did not.  Some schools that kept traditional forms would include some of the Chang Moo Kwan / Kang Duk Kwan schools.  

Then the Tae Kwon Do group broke up into ITF (General Choi's group) and the WTA (Olympic Tae Kwon Do).  The WTA did Palgue, then later Taeguek forms (Poomse).  The ITF did Chang Hon forms (Teul).

Korean politics sure can make things confusing, but if they call themselves Tang Soo Do or if the say they are TRADITIONAL Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, they should be about the same.  If they are Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, then they are a newer version with newer forms added.

I hope that answers your question.

Don Daly


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## miguksaram (Nov 13, 2013)

Don Daly said:


> Yes, there are several Traditional Korean styles that originally joined the unification movement of Tae Kwon Do until they found out that they would have to give up their heritage of forms and techniques that made them special and essentially become one of General Choi's schools.


This is not entirely correct.  First off the two schools that faltered from joining, but latere rejoined was the Jidokwan and Moodukkwan, the other schools went in willingly.  To say that they would lose their heritage is sort of a stretch since the vast majority were all from shotokan schools, so in essence they would not lose anything and all of the kept their kwan name hince Jidokwan Taekwondo, Chungdokwan Taekwondo, etc.  Nothing became part of General Choi's school.  In the beginning they were all going to fly under one flag.  The reason why Moodukkwan and Jidokwan backed out was more political than "loss of heritage".  Eventually Jidokwan came back to the fold and most of the Moodukkwan seniors did as well.




> Then the Tae Kwon Do group broke up into ITF (General Choi's group) and the WTA (Olympic Tae Kwon Do).  The WTA did Palgue, then later Taeguek forms (Poomse).  The ITF did Chang Hon forms (Teul).



Ok...I believe you are referring to WTF (World Taekwondo Federation).  This would be wrong.  There is not WTF Taekwondo.  It is Kukkiwon Taekwondo.  WTF is just the sport sanctioning body of TKD.  Kukkiwon is who establishes the curriculum and guidelines for Taekwondo.



> Korean politics sure can make things confusing, but if they call themselves Tang Soo Do or if the say they are TRADITIONAL Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, they should be about the same.  If they are Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, then they are a newer version with newer forms added.


If they call themselves traditional Moodukkwan Taekwondo, they should be adhereing to the KKW standards, if not then they are Tangsoodo, Moodukkwan.


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## dancingalone (Nov 16, 2013)

miguksaram said:


> If they call themselves traditional Moodukkwan Taekwondo, they should be adhereing to the KKW standards, if not then they are Tangsoodo, Moodukkwan.



No, there are MDK heritage groups that call themselves Tae Kwon Do, but they run the Pyung Ahn forms and aren't in the KKW realm.  There's a good member here called 'SahBumNimRush' that is a good representative of them.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 16, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> No, there are MDK heritage groups that call themselves Tae Kwon Do, but they run the Pyung Ahn forms and aren't in the KKW realm. There's a good member here called 'SahBumNimRush' that is a good representative of them.



There are also groups (such as ours...) that are TKD MDK and teach the Palgwae forms.


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## Koshiki (Nov 23, 2013)

I'm from a MDK TKD system. We do the Pyong Ahns, Bassai, Tensho, Sanchin, etc, also a couple CMA forms, and we fight in close with lots of grappling/trapping/throwing. Just as an example.


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## 40th Alabama (Feb 18, 2014)

And, to add insult to injury: http://soobahkdo.editme.com/Moo-Duk-Kwan
This looks like IHQ!


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