# Is Obama black?



## Steve

Came up in another thread, ballen says Obama isn't black, and therefore is NOT our first black president.  What does everyone else think?  I'm genuinely curious about this.


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## CoryKS

I thought Bill Clinton was our first black president?  I'm so confused.


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## Big Don

stevebjj said:


> Came up in another thread, ballen says Obama isn't black, and therefore is NOT our first black president.  What does everyone else think?  I'm genuinely curious about this.


Well, his dad was black, his mom was white, so, he's half and half, although, running as half and half wouldn't have garnered nearly as much hype as running as black...


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## Steve

CoryKS said:


> I thought Bill Clinton was our first black president?  I'm so confused.


That's funny.  I remember when that was thrown around.


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## elder999

Race is an artificial construct, so he's whatever he says he is, pretty much. However, based on appearance alone, he would be identified as "black" by a majority of Americans if they were unaware of his "bi-racial"  status, and he certainly would garner some attention if he self0identified as "white", though there's nothing preventing him from doing so.

_Biracial?_doesn't that mean that his daddy was E.T., or something, and his mom was a member of the _human race?_ :lfao:


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## Darksoul

-Sad that 'color' is still so important. Should we call him our first 'mixed' color President? How individuals indentify him and how the country as a whole indentifies him should be moot at this point. He's in office. People should judge him by his actions.

Andrew


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## Steve

Big Don said:


> Well, his dad was black, his mom was white, so, he's half and half, although, running as half and half wouldn't have garnered nearly as much hype as running as black...



So, you think this is a legitimate distinction?  What if his mom was half black and his dad was black?  Could he claim to be black then?  

I've heard allegations that he's not an American.  I've also heard allegations that he's not actually a Christian.  But this is truly the first time I've ever heard that he's not really black.  

Would you go so far as to say he's not legally black?


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## Steve

Darksoul said:


> -Sad that 'color' is still so important. Should we call him our first 'mixed' color President? How individuals indentify him and how the country as a whole indentifies him should be moot at this point. He's in office. People should judge him by his actions.
> 
> Andrew


I agree to an extent.  While he certainly should be held accountable and measured as a president by what he does, to ignore the significance of a black president in this country is, IMO, the wrong thing to do.  Like it or not, we have baggage, and the election of a black president is a significant social milestone in our Nation's history.  We may as well forget Jackie Robinson (first black pro-baseball player), Thurgood Marshall (first black Supreme Court Justice), Sgt. William Carney (first black Medal of Honor recipient), or any of the other black "firsts".


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## Ken Morgan

You guys are deeply in debt, are running huge deficits on the city, state and national level, have high unemployment, are running trade deficits with damn near every country you trade with, and *THIS* is an issue????

I dont care what colour my car is, I want it to get me and my kids from A to B in one piece.


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## Steve

Ken Morgan said:


> You guys are deeply in debt, are running huge deficits on the city, state and national level, have high unemployment, are running trade deficits with damn near every country you trade with, and *THIS* is an issue????
> 
> I don&#8217;t care what colour my car is, I want it to get me and my kids from A to B in one piece.


Let's keep things in perspective, Ken.  This isn't "an issue."  It's a topic of conversation that came up in another thread and has nothing to do with the other things you mention.


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## CoryKS

Ken Morgan said:


> You guys are deeply in debt, are running huge deficits on the city, state and national level, have high unemployment, are running trade deficits with damn near every country you trade with, and *THIS* is an issue????
> 
> I dont care what colour my car is, I want it to get me and my kids from A to B in one piece.


 
To be fair, though, if the only reason you bought the car in the first place is because it was blue, you'd want it to actually be a blue car.


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## elder999

stevebjj said:


> We may as well forget Jackie Robinson (first black pro-baseball player),".


 
FIrst black *major league* player-there was a_professional_ "Negro League," where Jackie Robinson played before the signing with the Dodgers, and which Obama would have *had* to play in at the time, had he been alive and wanted to be a ball player, and had the talent. Just as he would have had to ride in the back of the bus in southern states, and been unable to vote, and been lynched for whistling at a "white" woman, and been unable to be elected anything but dog-catcher. 

And not because he looks "biracial" at all......:lfao:


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## yorkshirelad

elder999 said:


> Race is an artificial construct, so he's whatever he says he is, pretty much. However, based on appearance alone, he would be identified as "black" by a majority of Americans if they were unaware of his "bi-racial" status, and he certainly would garner some attention if he self0identified as "white", though there's nothing preventing him from doing so.
> 
> _Biracial?_doesn't that mean that his daddy was E.T., or something, and his mom was a member of the _human race?_ :lfao:


A coworker of mine told me how important it was for him to see "a black man" as POTUS. He told me that it was a shame that his father didn't see it. I asked him if it mattered that Obama was half white. He answered that as far as he was concerned, even "a drop of black" would make him black. So using his logic, we're all black!!


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## Darksoul

stevebjj said:


> I agree to an extent. While he certainly should be held accountable and measured as a president by what he does, to ignore the significance of a black president in this country is, IMO, the wrong thing to do. Like it or not, we have baggage, and the election of a black president is a significant social milestone in our Nation's history. We may as well forget Jackie Robinson (first black pro-baseball player), Thurgood Marshall (first black Supreme Court Justice), Sgt. William Carney (first black Medal of Honor recipient), or any of the other black "firsts".


 
-Yeah, I guess I just wish we were farther along as a country in terms of being past certain things. Might happen someday. Might not.


Andrew


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## ballen0351

So basically who cares about his white mother and white grandparents that raised him as long as his sperm donor was a black man hes black?


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## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> So basically who cares about his white mother and white grandparents that raised him as long as his sperm donor was a black man hes black?


 
"Black" children are adopted and raised by white couples all the time-doesn't make them "white," does it?


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## LuckyKBoxer

WOW how nuts is it that this even is worth discussing?
It almost reminds me of the Native American Indian Blood issues... or more importantly the ever changing blood percentage to be considered a member of a specific tribe or not..
Its funny how they tend to increase or decrease depending on what is needed at the moment..
if its about sharing tribal funds from casino profits it usually becomes pretty hard to claim heritage without a large percentage of blood... 
but when it comes time for benefits for the tribes based on how many members they have those restrictions tend to loosen up..
maybe its something like this with Obama..
one race will claim him when he does something they like, and the other side will deny him, and then when the opposite happens they can change course...
sounds like a great thing to keep all those small minded race worried people occupied.
When the hell are people going to grow up and realize race is unimportant in this type of a situation?


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## Blade96

stevebjj said:


> Came up in another thread, ballen says Obama isn't black, and therefore is NOT our first black president.  What does everyone else think?  I'm genuinely curious about this.



he's mixed race. Thats how I see him.

I think he's called first black pres cause he obviously black in him. Half black. And he looks black. not white.


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## Scott T

ballen0351 said:


> So basically who cares about his white mother and white grandparents that raised him as long as his sperm donor was a black man hes black?


For me he's biracial. 

This is for you, how do you see Halle Berry?


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## LuckyKBoxer

Scott T said:


> For me he's biracial.
> 
> This is for you, how do you see Halle Berry?


 
as Hot.... is that the right race?


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## Brian R. VanCise

He is biracial just as many are of the fastest growing population in the United States.


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## Twin Fist

i dont know if he is black, but i DO know he is a friggin retard


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## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> So basically who cares about his white mother and white grandparents that raised him as long as his sperm donor was a black man hes black?


 

I'm not particularly offended, but I think Obama-the man who called his first book _Dreams From My* Father*_ might if he heard his father being referred to as "sperm donor."



> *"I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites"*
> 
> *It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names."-*
> 
> *I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa, that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, Dubois and Mandela."-*
> 
> *Barack Obama,* _ *Dreams From My Father*_


 
Like the rest of us, he is what he *says *he is.


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## Empty Hands

yorkshirelad said:


> He answered that as far as he was concerned, even "a drop of black" would make him black. So using his logic, we're all black!!



There is a long history behind this comment, that anyone inveighing against the horror of Obama self-identifying as "black" should be aware of.  This is a rule that was foisted on the black community, not one they created themselves.  In an effort to maintain white supremacy and to maintain distinctions between white and black with increasing numbers of biracial children being born and being able to "pass", the white community of history decided that any black ancestry at all made you "black."  Funny sounding classification systems were invented - octaroon, quadroon, "high yellow", and all the rest.  The white community invented and applied the "one drop rule."

This man was considered "black":





This woman was considered "black":





So please, before you rant against the bias and injustice of Obama identifying as black, understand that it is only now after hundreds of years of history that he would even have a choice in what he chose to identify as.  Of course, looking like he does, he would be treated as black then, and he certainly was and is treated as such now, no matter what he chooses to call himself.


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## Empty Hands

stevebjj said:


> I've heard allegations that he's not an American.  I've also heard allegations that he's not actually a Christian.  But this is truly the first time I've ever heard that he's not really black.



It's been around for a while, during the election and since.  Those on the right like Limbaugh made the exact same point balleen did, in an even more disingenuous manner.  Then there were comments coming from the other direction like Stanley Crouch claiming that Obama wasn't black enough, or at least "American black" enough, because he was not the descendant of slaves and had a white mother.


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## Mark Jordan

The world is getting smaller and smaller and everyone is mixing and that's not uncommon.
Obama's mother is white and his father is a black Kenyan.  But judging on his looks and color of skin.  I still see him as black. But who cares?


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## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> "Black" children are adopted and raised by white couples all the time-doesn't make them "white," does it?


Sure if there mother is white


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## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> Sure if there mother is white





This has to be one of the most singularly ignorant or completely obtuse statements I've seen here in quite some time.


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## ballen0351

Scott T said:


> For me he's biracial.
> 
> This is for you, how do you see Halle Berry?


Yeah I have to agree i see her as HOTTTTTT


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## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> This has to be one of the most singularly ignorant or completely obtuse statements I've seen here in quite some time.


So say the next president has both parents that are black raised in a black household shouldn't he be the 1st black president?
There is nothing wrong with being bi-racial I'm not sure why people think its a bad thing it is what he is.  My niece has a black father but never sees him or his family she looks black but her mother and the family she associates with is white.  She considers herself both.  She likes being different she thinks its cool it makes her special.  She has written reports in school about it and has express how its good she gets the best of both worlds.


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## elder999

Scott T said:


> This is for you, how do you see Halle Berry?


 

The way she sees _herself_, I think:



> Blackness is a state of mind and* I identify with the black community*. Mainly, because I realized, early on, *when I walk into a room, people see a black woman*, they don't see a white women. So out of that reason alone, I identify more with the black community"
> 
> I've pretty much learned I can let that *[being black*] hinder me if I want to ... or I can fight for different kinds of roles.
> 
> *I was black* growing up in an all-white neighborhood so I felt like I just didn't fit in. Like I wasn't as good as everybody else or as smart, or whatever.
> Halle Berry, on race.


 

oh, yeah-and *smokin' hot*! :lol:


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## Big Don

For the record, I don't think Obama is a Muslim OR a Christian. He thinks he IS GOD.


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## Twin Fist

i dont know if he is a muslim, but i do know he is a friggin retard


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## David43515

If I agreed with the policies he supports, I wouldn`t care if he were black, white, asian, hispanic, or purple. The same goes for christian, jewish, hindu, muslim, or buddhist. Personally I wouldn`t be bothered at all by forgeting about Jackie Robinson, Thurgood Marshal, or anyone else _if the only thing we`re remembering them for is the color of their skin. _I`m one of two non-Japanese living in a town of about 3000 people. I know _I`d_ much rather be remembered as a good teacher, a good husband and father, a good neighbor, and a good cook than as the first white man in the neighborhood.


Most people would consider me extremely conservative, both politically and religiously. You know, the guys that everyone points at when the words "intolerance" "small-minded" and "bigot" get dusted off and brought into debates. I`ve never understood that because to me color of a man`s skin is no more important than the color of his socks. If I call someone from another race an asshat, it`s not because I don`t like the part of the world where their anscestors came from. It`s because I think that that one solitary individual is an asshat. Obama can call himself what he wants, it`s his right.People can call him the first black president, or the first biracial president, or whatever the flavor of the week is. Myself, I`ll just keep calling hime "The President". Seems like it worked for everyone else who held the office before him.


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## Steve

Twin Fist said:


> i dont know if he is a muslim, but i do know he is a friggin retard


Welcome back, Twin Fist.


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## David43515

I know that some people feel a need to identify with someone, to have heroes that look like themselves. So having a leader or an authority figure that comes from a similar background is important to them. I respect that, but I can`t say I understand it. I`ve never felt that way. Growing up my heroes were always the guys who were the best at what they did. Some were white like me, some were black, or asian. I never cared one way or the other. 

Personally I identify alot more with the choices I`ve made in my life than I do with where my anscestors were from.


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## Twin Fist

stevebjj said:


> Welcome back, Twin Fist.


it's like i never left.....


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## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> So say the next president has both parents that are black raised in a black household shouldn't he be the 1st black president?


 
No, because Obama *is*.....unless, maybe, those rumors about Abe Lincoln or Warren G. Harding are true :lol:




ballen0351 said:


> There is nothing wrong with being bi-racial I'm not sure why people think its a bad thing it is what he is. My niece has a black father but never sees him or his family she looks black but her mother and the family she associates with is white. She considers herself both. She likes being different she thinks its cool it makes her special. She has written reports in school about it and has express how its good she gets the best of both worlds.


 

Yeah-I'd be the last person to say there was anything wrong with it-on the other hand, for most of my life it hasn't even been an option in this country for self-identification for EIEIO purposes....somtimes still isn't.



Twin Fist said:


> it's like i never left.....


 
For you maybe, but you've been missed, John-welcome back!


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## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> Yeah-I'd be the last person to say there was anything wrong with it-on the other hand, for most of my life it hasn't even been an option in this country for self-identification for EIEIO purposes....somtimes still isn't.


I just think to pretend like half of his family is not there is wrong.  I see nothing wrong with him being bi-racial but people act like its a big bad word to say that. He should be proud I think being the first bi-racial president is a great accomplishment maybe more so then the first black president esp. when during the time his parents were together that was the big taboo to have a black man and a white woman and in some places still today its like that.


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## Blade96

ballen0351 said:


> So say the next president has both parents that are black raised in a black household shouldn't he be the 1st black president?
> There is nothing wrong with being bi-racial I'm not sure why people think its a bad thing it is what he is.  My niece has a black father but never sees him or his family she looks black but her mother and the family she associates with is white.  She considers herself both.  She likes being different she thinks its cool it makes her special.  She has written reports in school about it and has express how its good she gets the best of both worlds.





ballen0351 said:


> I just think to pretend like half of his family is not there is wrong.  I see nothing wrong with him being bi-racial but people act like its a big bad word to say that. He should be proud I think being the first bi-racial president is a great accomplishment maybe more so then the first black president esp. when during the time his parents were together that was the big taboo to have a black man and a white woman and in some places still today its like that.



I agree with this. My two best friends are a bi racial couple, and if they have kids they will be half chinese and half white. They two will have best of both worlds


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## Steve

Except that "bi-racial" is a term that hasn't existed in this context until...  now?  I can't think of a time when a black person, whether he or she had white family members or not, had to account for how many black people were in the family tree.  

It comes off to me as self serving and disengenous.  A way for white dudes like Ballen to minimize the milestone in our efforts to GET to a point where race doesn't matter.  

Allegations that race and religion, gender and sexual orientation don't matter discount the actual bigotry that continues to exist.  It's a slap in the face of people who actually work for equality.  And it always seems to be white dudes saying it.  "Oh, I don't see color."


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## Twin Fist

white folks aint the racist anymore


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## David43515

stevebjj said:


> Except that "bi-racial" is a term that hasn't existed in this context until... now? I can't think of a time when a black person, whether he or she had white family members or not, had to account for how many black people were in the family tree.
> 
> It comes off to me as self serving and disengenous. A way for white dudes like Ballen to minimize the milestone in our efforts to GET to a point where race doesn't matter.
> 
> Allegations that race and religion, gender and sexual orientation don't matter discount the actual bigotry that continues to exist. It's a slap in the face of people who actually work for equality. And it always seems to be white dudes saying it. "Oh, I don't see color."


 
Oh I see it, I just don`t think it matters nearly as much as whether or not the person standing in front of me is someone I can respect or not. Personally I think alot of us already ARE at a place where race doesn`t matter. And the rest of you could get here alot faster if you`d try saying things like "Linda got here on her own talent and merit" instead of "Linda got here on her own talent and merit....and by the way she`s _________." Neither the milestones nor the journey are the destination.


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## ballen0351

stevebjj said:


> Except that "bi-racial" is a term that hasn't existed in this context until...  now?  I can't think of a time when a black person, whether he or she had white family members or not, had to account for how many black people were in the family tree.
> 
> It comes off to me as self serving and disengenous.  A way for white dudes like Ballen to minimize the milestone in our efforts to GET to a point where race doesn't matter.
> 
> Allegations that race and religion, gender and sexual orientation don't matter discount the actual bigotry that continues to exist.  It's a slap in the face of people who actually work for equality.  And it always seems to be white dudes saying it.  "Oh, I don't see color."



Ive herd the term Bi-racial for years.  Its not self serving or disingenuous If your parents are 2 different races and you wish to show respect to both parents then why pick one over the other?  When we fill out arrest booking information for our court systems we have a space for Bi-racial/white-Hispanic/other

Let me break it down simple for you I know its almost 4:20 there.  If a horse and a donkey mate you get a mule not a horse or a donkey.


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## ballen0351

stevebjj said:


> Allegations that race and religion, gender and sexual orientation don't matter discount the actual bigotry that continues to exist.  It's a slap in the face of people who actually work for equality.  And it always seems to be white dudes saying it.  "Oh, I don't see color."


And its usually apologetic white guilt that tries to force a person to meet a milestone to show "How Far we have come" even if the person does not fit the criteria.   Of course it only counts if the person is a Liberal because we all know the horrible things that were said about Condoleezza Rice, and Colin Powell when they were part of the Bush white house.


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## jks9199

He's an American.  He's the President of the United States.  He's a Democrat.  He's some form of Christian, apparently.

The rest is incidental and I'm personally kind of sick of all of it.


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## Steve

nevermind.  Done with this one. Frankly, the ugly turn that the conversation's taken is nauseating.


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## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> He's an American. He's the President of the United States. He's a Democrat. He's some form of Christian, apparently.
> 
> The rest is incidental and I'm personally kind of sick of all of it.


 
This is absolutely how I feel as well!


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## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> Ive herd the term Bi-racial for years. Its not self serving or disingenuous If your parents are 2 different races and you wish to show respect to both parents then why pick one over the other? When we fill out arrest booking information for our court systems we have a space for Bi-racial/white-Hispanic/other


 
" For years" doesn't really mean that much in this country. "Bi/mutli racial" wasn't an option on the U.S. census until 2000. It still isn't on some employers EIEIO surveys.

Now, as an aside, the products of a horse and a donkey, or a tiger and a lion, or a horse and a zebra, or a coyote and a dog are all called "sports," because, in part, they cannot breed themselves-this is, of course, because _their parents are not the same species_.

Unlike, of course, the  numerous permutations of human "interracial" breeding-because, unlike the horse and the donkey, they are the same species. Which makes this:



ballen0351 said:


> Let me break it down simple for you I know its almost 4:20 there. If a horse and a donkey mate you get a mule not a horse or a donkey.


 
The singular most ignorant statement I've seen here in  a long time-or, at least since you posted on this thread a page ago....:lol:


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## granfire

jks9199 said:


> He's an American.  He's the President of the United States.  He's a Democrat.  He's some form of Christian, apparently.
> 
> The rest is incidental and I'm personally kind of sick of all of it.




This ought to be all there is to a person.

However:
the color of skin is important (why, only the Gods know) and not just pale vs dark, but also the shades of dark.

while I never paid any attention to it, I found myself  - after over a decade immersed in US culture - wondering what 'race' a certain person was (the answer is mixed in that case). But I found it interesting and a bit worry some that that aspect has rubbed off on me.

On the same token there is that half vs whole. This golf player who shall remain un-named, I guess it was more interesting of having a 1st black winner compared to a 1st Tai winner...

What makes a 50/50 'black'?

Then again, a few (or a lot) of the good people out east who trace their roots back to the early _white_ settlers might be surprised to find how deep their roots run to the Motherland - which is not England. I hear there was a lot of hanky panky going on...I am sure Jefferson was not the only one.

So, again, like somebody already mentioned, if 1 drop makes him Black, I am sure we had a bunch of N****** in the White House already. And I am saying this tongue in cheek for I loath the 'N' word...for many reasons, a lot of them esthetical...silly me.


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## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> Now, as an aside, the products of a horse and a donkey, or a tiger and a lion, or a horse and a zebra, or a coyote and a dog are all called "sports," because, in part, they cannot breed themselves-this is, of course, because _their parents are not the same species_.


actually (and I looked this up before I posted that because I figured it would come up)
 they can get pregnant its rare but there have been cases of mules mating with horses and the mule getting pregnant but only female mules.  No cases of male mules getting females pregnant.  But that's not really the point it was just an analogy 



> Unlike, of course, the  numerous permutations of human "interracial" breeding-because, unlike the horse and the donkey, they are the same species. Which makes this:
> 
> The singular most ignorant statement I've seen here in  a long time-or, at least since you posted on this thread a page ago....:lol:


Stick around I got way more ignorant stuff then that.


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## elder999

A mule will never get another mule pregnant. A coy-dog will never get another coy-dog pregnant. A zebroid will never get another zebroid pregnant, and a liger will never get another liger pregnant.



ballen0351 said:


> But that's not really the point it was just an analogy


 
A pretty ****ing lousy one.

My kids' mom was Italian-at least, her mother was-she was adopted, and probably Germanic or even Jewish, but no one really knows. In any case, when we were dating, her grandmother said _Voste bambini avranne bande,_ or "your children will have stripes." THe father of a good family friend, a man who I liked and admired, and who I like to think liked me said about us, _gli ucellie ed i pesci_: *"the birds and the fish*"




ballen0351 said:


> Stick around I got way more ignorant stuff then that.


 

Of that I have no doubt.You've offered ample evidence already.


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## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> A mule will never get another mule pregnant. A coy-dog will never get another coy-dog pregnant. A zebroid will never get another zebroid pregnant, and a liger will never get another liger pregnant.


But a Mule can get pregnant that is whats really important because I didn't know that so I learned a new fact today.


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## ATACX GYM

Big Don said:


> Well, his dad was black, his mom was white, so, he's half and half, although, running as half and half wouldn't have garnered nearly as much hype as running as black...


 

He didn't run as Black,he ran as Obama.And the "hype" you attribute to him was actually generated by THE MEDIA.He merely exploited it,like most politicians would.However,his half-White lineage is completely and utterly ignored by many far Right pundits who find it to their advantage to cast him as the Black Islamic terrorist bogeyman who will take your guns create and consecrate Death Panels and allow the UN to take over the USA and all that other far-fetched nonsense.

So the REAL question is:"How do YOU define Blackness?" the US government has long defined "Blackness" as "you're 100% Black if you have a single drop of Black blood in you." Nowadays it's not so clear; Obama would clearly qualify as one of numerous "biracial" persons in the U.S.A. under current guidelines.


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## Blade96

ballen0351 said:


> But a Mule can get pregnant that is whats really important because I didn't know that so I learned a new fact today.



a tiglon can too 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglon


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## elder999

Blade96 said:


> a tiglon can too
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglon


 
.......as long as it's with a lion or tiger, and not another tiglon.


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## Big Don

If it is wrong to discriminate against people based on race, why does race need to be stated on government forms?


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## LuckyKBoxer

elder999 said:


> .......as long as it's with a lion or tiger, and not another tiglon.


 
I didn't read anything saying that they couldn't, just that they hadn't..
I don't see why they couldn't especially since they have had both male and female Tiglons prove to be fertile.


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## elder999

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I didn't read anything saying that they couldn't, just that they hadn't..
> I don't see why they couldn't especially since they have had both male and female Tiglons prove to be fertile.


 
Chromosones, dude. Isn't even possible for all female sports to become pregnant. Not "impossible," just way, way less likely.......like "impossible." but not quite....:lol"

Aside from which, what part makes it okay to compare the offspring of a white woman and a black man to the offspring of a horse and a donkey?


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Twin Fist said:


> white folks aint the racist anymore


 
And, once again, you know not what you speak.

This is implying a couple of things.  First, that "white folks" were racists.  Well, hate to break it to you, but "white folks" were not racists.  Individual white people were racists.  

This also implies that some other group is racist.  Considering that the context of this discussion is about Blacks and whites, you must now mean that Blacks are "the racists".  Once again, individual Black people are racist, not the entire group.

But I can also assure you, there are more than a handful of white racists out there still.  And yes, some of those are having a significant impact on the lives of non-whites.


----------



## Twin Fist

ok, Mr Semantics

hows this?

there are less white people with racist beliefs than ever before.

example?

we (whites) elected the moron in the oval office. He couldnt have gotten elected without white votes.

we, speaking for myself, my family, my peers, have moved on, by and large. White americans will now bend over backwards to prove how NOT racist we are.

we SHUN david duke

Al Sharpton still has a job. John Whiley Price, google it. Shelia Jackson Lee. 

exceptions always exist, but the white racist? he is the exception now. If you think he is not, then YOU know not of what you speak.


----------



## crushing

elder999 said:


> No, because Obama *is*.....unless, maybe, those rumors about Abe Lincoln or Warren G. Harding are true :lol:


 

Well, Obama is the first openly black president.


----------



## Empty Hands

David43515 said:


> I respect that, but I can`t say I understand it. I`ve never felt that way.



Perhaps you would if this country had a history of telling white people that the color of their skin made them lesser, inhuman, unintelligent, and incapable of succeeding.  To then see a white person succeed would be very important to you.


----------



## Empty Hands

granfire said:


> What makes a 50/50 'black'?



How everyone sees and treats them.  It's like Halle Berry said in the quote Elder posted, when she walks in the room, no one is _ever _going to say "Oh look, a white woman."  The reasons for this are historical, as I've explained in my post.

Colorism is in itself a political issue within the black community.  Because of that history, lighter skin came to be preferred, the echoes of which are still seen today - Big Daddy rapped "sexy young ladies of the light skinned breed" not all that long ago.  Racism makes everything complicated.


----------



## Carol

White racism isn't rare by any stretch, and over the last 10 years there has been a particular uptick in racism against Latinos.


----------



## granfire

Carol said:


> White racism isn't rare by any stretch, and over the last 10 years there has been a particular uptick in racism against Latinos.




Let me put it this way:
It's well documented.

However, I find it interesting that well educated, smart people consider it impossible to be called racist because they are not white...
It ticks both ways, fueled by a select few who make a good living off of it....


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> Perhaps you would if this country had a history of telling white people that the color of their skin made them lesser, inhuman, unintelligent, and incapable of succeeding. To then see a white person succeed would be very important to you.


 
You mean something other then what I have experienced in my lifetime growing up in Southern California where White people have been vilified, and that because of the color of my skin I have been called a racist, inhuman, unintelligent, and incapable of succeeding without the horrors that my ancestors supposedly caused.... even though people have done so without knowing my racial background at all or my family tree at all?
Then what to see this nonsense go away would be very important to me?
Sure I get ya.


----------



## elder999

5-0 Kenpo said:


> But I can also assure you, there are more than a handful of white racists out there still. And yes, some of those are having a significant impact on the lives of non-whites.


 
And some of them are probably equating the "biracial" as "analogous" to  mules......


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> You mean something other then what I have experienced in my lifetime growing up in Southern California where White people have been vilified, and that because of the color of my skin I have been called a racist, inhuman, unintelligent, and incapable of succeeding without the horrors that my ancestors supposedly caused.... even though people have done so without knowing my racial background at all or my family tree at all?



I lived in SoCal for 7 years, in the San Fernando Valley in a majority Hispanic neighborhood.  I worked at an institution that was majority Asian.  Never had that happen to me even once.  Maybe I'm just nicer?


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> I lived in SoCal for 7 years, in the San Fernando Valley in a majority Hispanic neighborhood. I worked at an institution that was majority Asian. Never had that happen to me even once. Maybe I'm just nicer?


 
doubt it.
Hell even when I lived in San Francisco for 4 years my liberal friends would jokingly introduce me to their friends as "The Enemy" because I was white, straight, Christian, "Wealthy", and conservative...
I have had people excuse my successes my entire life as being because of my parents, or because I was white... not because I was actually doing something right.
Because I never had any problems getting a job it was excused away as me being white not me being qualified, or doing something worthwhile to be hired. When trying to get college scholarships I was told I shouldn't apply because my family could afford to pay for me.... forget the fact I was kicked out of my house 5 days after I graduated high school and lived in the back of my 69 volkswagon bug for several months while I worked to get myself a rented room, and go to college... no I was told that other minority students should have priority regardless of my situation... which I was to proud at the time to even mention... the reasoning going all the way back to slavery and and unfair balance..yes that was actually told to me as a reason why I should apply and take this from someone else...
when I tried applying for the big brother organization when I was 26 I was flat out told no thanks we dont need you, we need more ethnic participants.....There are many many examples I can give out of my personal life, but I really dont care to share. I just get sick of reading some of this sanctimonious crap that some of you spew sometimes and expect it to be taken as gospel.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Big Don said:


> If it is wrong to discriminate against people based on race, why does race need to be stated on government forms?


 

The two have very little correlation visavis the kind of racism that you're referring to.The demographic of one's population plays an integral role in all manner of governmental record keeping and functions,including considerations for Social Security Medicaid military etc. Racial demographics are also important for tracking the impact of various domestic programs upon the diverse U.S. population,and racial demographics are of the first importance to combating institutionalized racism.


----------



## elder999

LuckyKBoxer said:


> WOW how nuts is it that this even is worth discussing?
> It almost reminds me of the Native American Indian Blood issues... or more importantly the ever changing blood percentage to be considered a member of a specific tribe or not..
> Its funny how they tend to increase or decrease depending on what is needed at the moment..
> if its about sharing tribal funds from casino profits it usually becomes pretty hard to claim heritage without a large percentage of blood...
> but when it comes time for benefits for the tribes based on how many members they have those restrictions tend to loosen up..


 
The blood quota is something set up by the U.S. government. It gets downright ridiculous at times-I have a friend whose tribal membership card says she's *1/125th *Cherokee. My mom's mom was Windriver Shoshone, White Knives Clan, and my dad's dad was Montauk/Shinnecock, Beaver clan. This makes me legally 1/2 Indian: 1/4 Shoshone and 1/4 SHinnecock......but it might be more, and is, more likely, less.....in any case, since-in both cases-I live off reservation, there is no benefit to the tribe, and, when the Shinnecocks have a casino, there'll be no casino money for me.....in most cases, there usually isn't for those who live on reservation, anyway.....it _does_ let me have eagle feathers and peyote, and to carry those things across state lines.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> maybe its something like this with Obama..
> one race will claim him when he does something they like, and the other side will deny him, and then when the opposite happens they can change course...
> sounds like a great thing to keep all those small minded race worried people occupied.
> When the hell are people going to grow up and realize race is unimportant in this type of a situation?


 
They mostly won't. It seems to me that some people keep trying to remind us of his "whiteness" as though that is the reason for his success. It's worth pointing out, *again* that the man identifies _himself_ as black, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the societies in which he lived-including ours-called him that, right up until he gave that speech at the Democratic convention, anyway:



> "I ceased to advertise my mother&#8217;s race at the age of twelve or thirteen, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites."
> 
> I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'
> 
> 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'
> 
> 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa, that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself: the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'


 
THese quotes come directly from his book. He isn't white, because he doesn't want to be-and, of course, he couldn't be. I don't really see why he has to be one, or the other, or both, but he made his choice long ago.




LuckyKBoxer said:


> doubt it.
> I have had people excuse my successes my entire life as being because of my parents, or because I was white... not because I was actually doing something right.


 
And, like Clarence Thomas, I've had people attribute my successes to affirmative action, or racial quotas, or scholarship funds, or some other special treatment.

_Life is soooo unfair._




LuckyKBoxer said:


> Because I never had any problems getting a job it was excused away as me being white not me being qualified, or doing something worthwhile to be hired. When trying to get college scholarships I was told I shouldn't apply because my family could afford to pay for me.... forget the fact I was kicked out of my house 5 days after I graduated high school and lived in the back of my 69 volkswagon bug for several months while I worked to get myself a rented room, and go to college... no I was told that other minority students should have priority regardless of my situation... which I was to proud at the time to even mention... the reasoning going all the way back to slavery and and unfair balance..yes that was actually told to me as a reason why I should apply and take this from someone else...


 
This is largely B.S., I'm afraid-maybe you were told that, but it was B.S. There have always been scholarships and grants available for those who prove need, regardless of race. And, as I've said before, all you really have to do is put "black" on the form, and that money becomes available to you. People might question it, but all you have to do is say that your grandmother-or even great, great grandmother-was black, and it's a done deal.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> ok, Mr Semantics
> 
> hows this?
> 
> there are less white people with racist beliefs than ever before.
> 
> example?
> 
> we (whites) elected the moron in the oval office. He couldnt have gotten elected without white votes.
> 
> we, speaking for myself, my family, my peers, have moved on, by and large. White americans will now bend over backwards to prove how NOT racist we are.
> 
> we SHUN david duke
> 
> Al Sharpton still has a job. John Whiley Price, google it. Shelia Jackson Lee.
> 
> exceptions always exist, but the white racist? he is the exception now. If you think he is not, then YOU know not of what you speak.


 
Both of you are making mistakes based upon not knowing the specifics of the distinct difference between racial PREJUDICE and INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM. Racial PREJUDICE is specific to individuals...and refers to individuals who may dislike another race purely upon the basis of race.INSTITUTIONAL racism refers to a group that is the political majority (the group in power) enshrining its values in such a way that every major institution in society favors them and specifically discriminates against others not of their race.Institutionalized racism in this country is very very very much alive.The fact remains that--population wide--the reality for Black people in the United States is still starkly different than our White compatriots,and the differences are borne of institutionalized racism.

So YOU may not be racist.I am not,others may not be.But the INSTITUTION/SYSTEM IS,and the people who perpetuate it don't even have to be racist to perpetuate a racist institution.Not every cop in the USA is racist.The policing policies and effects are assuredly racist,nationwide.No question or doubt.Not every doctor in the U.S.A. or employer is racist.There is no doubt that there is traumatic differences between the educational and health opportunities afforded White and Black people with White people receiving many critical services in many areas that are just not available to Black people because we're Black.And that,ladies and germs,is INSTITUTIONAL racism.

And it'll stay that way until we fundamentally and more fairly (for everyone) rework the primary institutions in these United States of America.

Btw,if President Obama is a "moron",what President would you consider his intellectual superior? Why? What President within say the last 40 years did a better job? Why?


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

elder999 said:


> This is largely B.S., I'm afraid-maybe you were told that, but it was B.S. There have always been scholarships and grants available for those who prove need, regardless of race. And, as I've said before, all you really have to do is put "black" on the form, and that money becomes available to you. People might question it, but all you have to do is say that your grandmother-or even great, great grandmother-was black, and it's a done deal.


 
ya I was 18 at the time, didn't know any better, and my family and I were on the outs. the people I came to that I thought knew how things worked misled me, and I was to ignorant at the time to realize it, or do anything about it. It doesn't matter now, but the fact remains in my lifetime I have not seen this so called one way racism bullcrap, and where I have grown up at I have seen quite a bit directed at me nonstop and it has steadily grown worse and worse... so you will have to either call me a liar or understand why I dont buy into the BS claims that I responded to in the first place. Oh btw, Im a mutt when it comes to heritage. I can trace my lineage back fairly far and it goes interesting places, but as you mention about Obama I too have pretty much always declared myself as Caucasian for the most part, although I did mull over declaring myself as Native American for the scholarships, although my blood quota also was not enough to be an official member of a Tribe, so I discounted it and never even thought of trying to advertise myself as anything else...
although wasnt there a movie in the late 80s early 90s where some white guy did that, and then actually disguised himself as a black man to try to keep his secret after he got the scholarship??


----------



## Twin Fist

ATACX GYM said:


> Not every cop in the USA is racist.The policing policies and effects are assuredly racist,nationwide.No question or doubt.




and there goes any credibility you might have had, right out the window


----------



## ballen0351

ATACX GYM said:


> Not every cop in the USA is racist.The policing policies and effects are assuredly racist,nationwide.No question or doubt


What Policy would that be?


----------



## Blade96

granfire said:


> Let me put it this way:
> It's well documented.
> 
> However, I find it interesting that well educated, smart people consider it impossible to be called racist because they are not white...
> It ticks both ways, fueled by a select few who make a good living off of it....



It does tick both ways. My friend Amy's in laws hate her because she is white and not Chinese.


----------



## punisher73

I have nothing to add to this thread....

Clicked on the thread because I was curious, I have to say that after reading through some of the comments on the first two pages, I have now lowered my IQ and actually feel dumber for having read it.

Continue on with the regularly scheduled program!


----------



## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> When we fill out arrest booking information for our court systems we have a space for Bi-racial/white-Hispanic/other.


 

I'm curious: do you ask what race they are when booking, or do you indicate what "space" they fall into yourselves?


----------



## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> I'm curious: do you ask what race they are when booking, or do you indicate what "space" they fall into yourselves?


I personally ask every question on the sheet after I made the mistake of thinking someone was a male when in fact she was not (think pat from Sat night live but with a mustache).  I cant speak for other people but that's what I do.


----------



## David43515

ATACX GYM said:


> INSTITUTIONAL racism refers to a group that is the political majority (the group in power) enshrining its values in such a way that every major institution in society favors them and specifically discriminates against others not of their race.Institutionalized racism in this country is very very very much alive.
> So YOU may not be racist.I am not,others may not be.But the INSTITUTION/SYSTEM IS,and the people who perpetuate it don't even have to be racist to perpetuate a racist institution.
> .


 
Okay, you`ve peaked my curiosity. Can you give me some examples of institutional racism? I mean besides the government or universities asking me to state my race  in order to track who gets what subsidies. 

You realize, don`t you, that there is no such thing as "reverse discrimination". There`s just "discrimination".


----------



## Steve

LuckyKBoxer said:


> doubt it.
> Hell even when I lived in San Francisco for 4 years my liberal friends would jokingly introduce me to their friends as "The Enemy" because I was white, straight, Christian, "Wealthy", and conservative...
> I have had people excuse my successes my entire life as being because of my parents, or because I was white... not because I was actually doing something right.
> Because I never had any problems getting a job it was excused away as me being white not me being qualified, or doing something worthwhile to be hired. When trying to get college scholarships I was told I shouldn't apply because my family could afford to pay for me.... forget the fact I was kicked out of my house 5 days after I graduated high school and lived in the back of my 69 volkswagon bug for several months while I worked to get myself a rented room, and go to college... no I was told that other minority students should have priority regardless of my situation... which I was to proud at the time to even mention... the reasoning going all the way back to slavery and and unfair balance..yes that was actually told to me as a reason why I should apply and take this from someone else...
> when I tried applying for the big brother organization when I was 26 I was flat out told no thanks we dont need you, we need more ethnic participants.....There are many many examples I can give out of my personal life, but I really dont care to share. I just get sick of reading some of this sanctimonious crap that some of you spew sometimes and expect it to be taken as gospel.


It's funny to me that you and a few others talk about how everything positive that happens to you is a direct result of pulling up the old bootstraps, hard work and a direct result of being a terrific human being.  But everything negative, ie, when people react negatively to you, it's them.  They're bigoted.  They're biased.  They're racist.  I never really put it together until this post.

I have a generally positive impression of you from your posts, but you're admittedly blunt and coarse.  You've said so yourself.  I think it's within the realm of possibility that some people just don't like you, and the rest is details.


----------



## David43515

stevebjj said:


> It's funny to me that you and a few others talk about how everything positive that happens to you is a direct result of pulling up the old bootstraps, hard work and a direct result of being a terrific human being. But everything negative, ie, when people react negatively to you, it's them. They're bigoted. They're biased. They're racist. I never really put it together until this post.
> 
> I have a generally positive impression of you from your posts, but you're admittedly blunt and coarse. You've said so yourself. I think it's within the realm of possibility that some people just don't like you, and the rest is details.


 
That sword cuts both ways though. If I have a chip on my shoulder and see every percieved insult or slight as racism, aren`t I going to find it alot more often? Couldn`t it be that the person treating me like crap just doesn`t like ME? 

I went to school with a guy who really got pissed when girls would shoot him down. He was very self consious of his background and swore they all thought they were too good for him. One day a girl who`d shot him down overheard him ranting about what a bigot and a class-consious elitist she was. You should have seen the look on his face when she and a few girlfreinds got the attention  of the whole bar and explained that the reason none of them would date him was because his over moussed hair made him look like a troll doll and his breath could knock a horse over.


----------



## Steve

David43515 said:


> That sword cuts both ways though. If I have a chip on my shoulder and see every percieved insult or slight as racism, aren`t I going to find it alot more often? Couldn`t it be that the person treating me like crap just doesn`t like ME?
> 
> I went to school with a guy who really got pissed when girls would shoot him down. He was very self consious of his background and swore they all thought they were too good for him. One day a girl who`d shot him down overheard him ranting about what a bigot and a class-consious elitist she was. You should have seen the look on his face when she and a few girlfreinds got the attention  of the whole bar and explained that the reason none of them would date him was because his over moussed hair made him look like a troll doll and his breath could knock a horse over.


Undoubtedly true, and a lesson we might all take to heart.  

I actually wrote about this a few months back in the context of my kids and personal accountability.  If things happen TO you all the time, chances are you're your own worst enemy.  The flip side of this is if you're looking for offense, it's easy to find, even if you have to make it up. 

I hadn't seen it in this light before, though.  The combination of threads floating around where guys are talking about being self made successes also blaming others for being bigoted and discriminating against them.  It struck my funny bone.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

stevebjj said:


> It's funny to me that you and a few others talk about how everything positive that happens to you is a direct result of pulling up the old bootstraps, hard work and a direct result of being a terrific human being. But everything negative, ie, when people react negatively to you, it's them. They're bigoted. They're biased. They're racist. I never really put it together until this post.
> 
> I have a generally positive impression of you from your posts, but you're admittedly blunt and coarse. You've said so yourself. I think it's within the realm of possibility that some people just don't like you, and the rest is details.


 
LOL funny observation.
I have never said that everything I have done has come through hard work... hell my nickname is lucky... but thats another story.
I also have no misconceptions about why some people dont like me. 
The only time I would say that someone was bigoted towards me, would be in those times when they have specifically given racial reasoning for denying me something.
I know plenty of people of different racial background then me that dont like for perfectly legitimate reasons. I can not disagree with you calling me blunt and coarse. Sometimes that is my goal... most of the time I just try to be as directly to the point as possible..
but in regards to blaming any problems I have on race, I think only in or two other threads that took a turn towards the discussion of racism have I mentioned anything about it. My parents cutting ties with me had nothing to do with racism and everything to do with my lifestyle at the time. I have had all kinds of issues and problems that had nothing to do with racism.. but I brought the ones up that specifically did due to the thread..
like I said funny observation though.. It might even be something I would point out if I was reading someone elses post.


----------



## ATACX GYM

David43515 said:


> Okay, you`ve peaked my curiosity. Can you give me some examples of institutional racism? I mean besides the government or universities asking me to state my race in order to track who gets what subsidies.
> 
> You realize, don`t you, that there is no such thing as "reverse discrimination". There`s just "discrimination".


 

But of course.There IS no such thing as "reverse discrimination".That's just a rather cumbersome,pretty asinine label that the media coined in order to get the average layman to see right away that they're talking about someone being racially prejudiced toward Whites,and not the other way around (which was considered to be the norm,at the time).In the process,they completely confused the significant differences between INSTITUTIONAL racism and racial PREJUDICE.

I already alluded to INSTITUTIONALIZED racism.To quote one of the more common and better definitions:'The term "institutional racism" describes societal patterns that have the net effect of imposing oppressive or otherwise negative conditions against identifiable groups on the basis of race or ethnicity." This following bit of fact may send our good friend "yorkshirelad" into a frenzy,but this term was coined by one of the brilliant minds and one of the greatest leaders of the ORIGINAL Black Panther Party for Self-Defense,STOKELY CARMICHAEL.In the United States, institutional racism results from the social caste system that sustained, and was sustained by, slavery and racial segregation. Although the laws that enforced this caste system are no longer in place, its basic structure still stands to this day. This structure will not fall apart but will continue on its own given perpetual impetus by the very nature of the system itself.Intelligent,focused human equality activism is necessary to initiate and expedite the process of destroying these odious mechanisms which are in and of themselves the font and source of the most egregious excesses that we despise most in our government in the racist,sexist,and politically rapacious and corrupt sense.Literally.A log jam of laws that would actually HELP people in Congress.Institutionalized ineptitude,which has the same roots in the institutions which perpetuate racism.Overspending in Washington and local businesses? Same roots. Underperforming schools? Same roots.Widening gap between rich and poor,men and women,young and old? Same roots. Extravaganlty priced health insurance gangsters? Same source. Wall Street excesses? Same roots.If we annihilate institutionalized racism,we strike a major blow at the institutionalized behaviour that preys upon us all...and in the process we provide for a more equitable society in the interim.

The Panthers knew this,and that is also why they were NOT racist.


So,for example:

Opposing public school funding is not necessarily an act of individual racism; one can certainly oppose public school funding for valid, non-racist reasons. But to the extent that opposing public school funding has a disproportionate and detrimental effect on minority youth--which the Census Bureau not only rigorous affirms that it does but its subsequent studies indicate that this underfunding of minority schools is deliberate and indemnic within the system itself--it furthers the agenda of institutional racism.
Most other positions contrary to the civil rights agenda--opposition to affirmative action, support for racial profiling, and so forth--also have the (often unintended) effect of sustaining institutional racism.The average American of all colors is miseducated into thinking that the current state of affairs is a beneficial "norm",when it's NOT.Most people think that the election of President Obama is the final proof of the death knell of racism,when of course it's not.The average person mistakes deliberate socially conscious racial PREJUDICE with racism and oftentimes entirely misses the fact that racism has been much more subtle,much more institutional,and much more subconscious since the 70's...and as such has become HARDER TO COMBAT,NOT EASIER.In essence,racism has been silenced publicly so it performs its dirty work quietly in back corridors where it's even HARDER to spot,publicize and combat...UNLESS you're being victimized by it regularly like we Black folks are.That's why many of our well-intentioned White friends can not only be completely and utterly wrong about their belief that racism has waned to the point of nigh extinction and exasperated with us when we remonstrate with them that it hasn't...and oftentimes they do racist things without even knowing it or meaning to do so.

Because they think racial PREJUDICE--which is individualized,occurs in the hearts of people who cannot impact society's attitudes--is what gives rise to the many ills that are the purview of INSTITUTIONALIZED racism,which is promulgated by the most powerful group (White people at this point in time) and the most powerful institutions (government,education,military,healthcare,employment,etc.) in a society.Aaand racism is now far more subtle.Rush Limbaugh and most Right wingers are massively racist,and quite a few of them are too dumb to know it.Rush knows it though...and he knows how to exploit that racism in the hearts and minds of most of his listeners,then enflame them to such a pitch that they believe his drivel.This is exactly what most Right wing nutjobs do the best and the most.The Left wing nutjobs--and there ARE Left nutjobs--aren't as organized,well financed,or as desirous of tumultous change as their Right wing counterparts.More importantly? There are probably LESS extreme Left nuts than there are in the Right; they are certainly less vocal than the Far Right is.But a nut is a nut and is not to be trusted because they're NUTS.Remember that.


----------



## ATACX GYM

ballen0351 said:


> What Policy would that be?


 
Is this a legitimate question or are you just kidding with me?


----------



## Twin Fist

ATACX GYM said:


> Opposing public school funding is not necessarily an act of individual racism; one can certainly oppose public school funding for valid, non-racist reasons. But to the extent that opposing public school funding has a disproportionate and detrimental effect on minority youth--which the Census Bureau not only rigorous affirms that it does but its subsequent studies indicate that this underfunding of minority schools is deliberate and indemnic within the system itself--it furthers the agenda of institutional racism.





horse crap.

schools are funded through property taxes, taxes are based off of property VALUES.

why do you suppose the property value of houses in high minority areas is in the toilet?

could it be the rampant crime that seems to go with minorities every time?

how is it fair to take money from areas with higher property values to give to the lower value areas? 

it isnt

minority areas want better schools? stop turning the nieghborhoods into war zones between dealers and guess what? the schools get more money through taxes.


----------



## ballen0351

ATACX GYM said:


> Is this a legitimate question or are you just kidding with me?


Nope Real Question.  Ive been a Police Officer for over 10 years Ive worked in rual country areas and now built up urban area so Ive covered alot of ground.  Id like to know what Police policy's are racist.


----------



## ATACX GYM

LuckyKBoxer said:


> You mean something other then what I have experienced in my lifetime growing up in Southern California where White people have been vilified, and that because of the color of my skin I have been called a racist, inhuman, unintelligent, and incapable of succeeding without the horrors that my ancestors supposedly caused.... even though people have done so without knowing my racial background at all or my family tree at all?
> Then what to see this nonsense go away would be very important to me?
> Sure I get ya.


 

No,something a bit more than that.I would say...

if you've ever been pulled over at gun point by police,harassed,jailed,lost your life,or know anyone who has...and know that this can happen to you at any moment of any day PURELY because you're White...

...if your life expectancy,quality of life,education level,income level,health care,etc. is held to a permanently lower level (14-25%) say than your Black contemporaries whose educational level you may EXCEED,merely because you're White...

...if the aspects of your culture and your skin color is more associated with the criminal element and all things undesirable...

...if say the overwhelming majority of people in your country are utterly convinced that all of the old Kings of England were Black when of course they're White and all of Europe's achievements were seen as the direct result of the civilization that Black people built there when you know for a fact that the exact opposite is true,but were you to say anything challenging the contentions of Black and many White people who are wedded to their ignorance and illusions,all manner of ill may befall you...

...if you not only couldn't name 3 countries from the continent from which you hail but you can't speak the language and know nothing of its internal workings...

...if you see more of your people and people who look like you in negative positions regularly in the news,like being cuffed by police and singled out as underachieving in almost every desirable endeavor,and it was not-so-subtly suggested that this was the case because they're White like you...

...if the crack epidemic,gang warfare,Welfare problems,and the like were saddled with your face when those problems most definitely originated elsewhere...

...if the one time you saw a White President ascend to office,he's not only strapped with the greatest deficit in human history but when he achieves extraordinary feats in the face of insuperable obstacles that literally no other human being in world history has faced you not only see him demeaned by a sizeable portion of the Black public which has little to NO idea what they're talking about,and this public also spawns a run on weaponry,and asinine movements like Birthers and Deathers,and you overhear Black people who you thought were intelligent and might not be racist huddle together in sizeable groups when they think they're not being overheard and blather in fear that the new White president is going to start enforced reparations and put Black people in slavery...

...if every time a White person does something that causes social ripples you see the environment at your job change and become more hostile and the glass ceiling which is there for you especially lowers even more...

...these things and many more...

...yeah you might start to get an outside taste of what it means to be a strong Black unafraid articulate physically capable educated culturally connected person in America today.You MIGHT.Maybe.


----------



## Twin Fist

wow, gee, lets just get all the evil white folks to kill themselves......


----------



## David43515

ATACX GYM said:


> But of course.There IS no such thing as "reverse discrimination".That's just a rather cumbersome,pretty asinine label that the media coined in order to get the average layman to see right away that they're talking about someone being racially prejudiced toward Whites,and not the other way around (which was considered to be the norm,at the time).In the process,they completely confused the significant differences between INSTITUTIONAL racism and racial PREJUDICE.
> 
> I already alluded to INSTITUTIONALIZED racism.To quote one of the more common and better definitions:'The term "institutional racism" describes societal patterns that have the net effect of imposing oppressive or otherwise negative conditions against identifiable groups on the basis of race or ethnicity." This following bit of fact may send our good friend "yorkshirelad" into a frenzy,but this term was coined by one of the brilliant minds and one of the greatest leaders of the ORIGINAL Black Panther Party for Self-Defense,STOKELY CARMICHAEL.In the United States, institutional racism results from the social caste system that sustained, and was sustained by, slavery and racial segregation. Although the laws that enforced this caste system are no longer in place, its basic structure still stands to this day. This structure will not fall apart but will continue on its own given perpetual impetus by the very nature of the system itself.Intelligent,focused human equality activism is necessary to initiate and expedite the process of destroying these odious mechanisms which are in and of themselves the font and source of the most egregious excesses that we despise most in our government in the racist,sexist,and politically rapacious and corrupt sense.Literally.A log jam of laws that would actually HELP people in Congress.Institutionalized ineptitude,which has the same roots in the institutions which perpetuate racism.Overspending in Washington and local businesses? Same roots. Underperforming schools? Same roots.Widening gap between rich and poor,men and women,young and old? Same roots. Extravaganlty priced health insurance gangsters? Same source. Wall Street excesses? Same roots.If we annihilate institutionalized racism,we strike a major blow at the institutionalized behaviour that preys upon us all...and in the process we provide for a more equitable society in the interim.
> 
> The Panthers knew this,and that is also why they were NOT racist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So,for example:
> 
> Opposing public school funding is not necessarily an act of individual racism; one can certainly oppose public school funding for valid, non-racist reasons. But to the extent that opposing public school funding has a disproportionate and detrimental effect on minority youth--which the Census Bureau not only rigorous affirms that it does but its subsequent studies indicate that this underfunding of minority schools is deliberate and indemnic within the system itself--it furthers the agenda of institutional racism.
> Most other positions contrary to the civil rights agenda--opposition to affirmative action, support for racial profiling, and so forth--also have the (often unintended) effect of sustaining institutional racism.The average American of all colors is miseducated into thinking that the current state of affairs is a beneficial "norm",when it's NOT.Most people think that the election of President Obama is the final proof of the death knell of racism,when of course it's not.The average person mistakes deliberate socially conscious racial PREJUDICE with racism and oftentimes entirely misses the fact that racism has been much more subtle,much more institutional,and much more subconscious since the 70's...and as such has become HARDER TO COMBAT,NOT EASIER.In essence,racism has been silenced publicly so it performs its dirty work quietly in back corridors where it's even HARDER to spot,publicize and combat...UNLESS you're being victimized by it regularly like we Black folks are.That's why many of our well-intentioned White friends can not only be completely and utterly wrong about their belief that racism has waned to the point of nigh extinction and exasperated with us when we remonstrate with them that it hasn't...and oftentimes they do racist things without even knowing it or meaning to do so.
> 
> Because they think racial PREJUDICE--which is individualized,occurs in the hearts of people who cannot impact society's attitudes--is what gives rise to the many ills that are the purview of INSTITUTIONALIZED racism,which is promulgated by the most powerful group (White people at this point in time) and the most powerful institutions (government,education,military,healthcare,employment,etc.) in a society.Aaand racism is now far more subtle.Rush Limbaugh and most Right wingers are massively racist,and quite a few of them are too dumb to know it.Rush knows it though...and he knows how to exploit that racism in the hearts and minds of most of his listeners,then enflame them to such a pitch that they believe his drivel.This is exactly what most Right wing nutjobs do the best and the most.The Left wing nutjobs--and there ARE Left nutjobs--aren't as organized,well financed,or as desirous of tumultous change as their Right wing counterparts.More importantly? There are probably LESS extreme Left nuts than there are in the Right; they are certainly less vocal than the Far Right is.But a nut is a nut and is not to be trusted because they're NUTS.Remember that.


 
Well I guess we`ll have to agree to disagree. From what you`re saying the definition seems so broad that pretty much anything short of the weather could be institutional racism if it could inconvenience some member of a minority population. But I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. You`ve given me something to think about.

I guess the problem is so big I can`t see it. I`ll just have to continue to rely on being nice to people until they give me a reason not to.


----------



## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> I personally ask every question on the sheet after I made the mistake of thinking someone was a male when in fact she was not (think pat from Sat night live but with a mustache). I cant speak for other people but that's what I do.


 
Odd  to me that you're not protected by a procedure or policy statement that gives this process uniformity...


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

ATACX GYM said:


> No,something a bit more than that.I would say...
> 
> if you've ever been pulled over at gun point by police,harassed,jailed,lost your life,or know anyone who has...and know that this can happen to you at any moment of any day PURELY because you're White...
> 
> *well ya all of that has happened to me aside from losing my own life, and yes it was because I was white where I was and I stuck out like a sore thumb lol... thanks for the laugh, I sometimes look back and wonder wtf I was thinking..*
> 
> ...if your life expectancy,quality of life,education level,income level,health care,etc. is held to a permanently lower level (14-25%) say than your Black contemporaries whose educational level you may EXCEED,merely because you're White...
> 
> *ya you lost me here completely..I have no idea what this has to do with racism. I have not bothered looking into any recent studies based on life expectancy, and the rest, but I imagine that it has more to do with economic status then race... could be wrong.. but not sure what this has to do with racism at all*
> 
> ...if the aspects of your culture and your skin color is more associated with the criminal element and all things undesirable...
> 
> *once again lost me here.. skin color doesnt associate to criminal element where I am from. and I have fewer white neighbors then anything else. *
> 
> ...if say the overwhelming majority of people in your country are utterly convinced that all of the old Kings of England were Black when of course they're White and all of Europe's achievements were seen as the direct result of the civilization that Black people built there when you know for a fact that the exact opposite is true,but were you to say anything challenging the contentions of Black and many White people who are wedded to their ignorance and illusions,all manner of ill may befall you...
> 
> *wtf does this have to do with anything???? So what exactly are you saying anyways? *
> 
> ...if you not only couldn't name 3 countries from the continent from which you hail but you can't speak the language and know nothing of its internal workings...
> 
> *I was born in Belgium, I cant speak a lick of flemish.*
> 
> ...if you see more of your people and people who look like you in negative positions regularly in the news,like being cuffed by police and singled out as underachieving in almost every desirable endeavor,and it was not-so-subtly suggested that this was the case because they're White like you...
> 
> *what channel are you watching?? lets see on the news today that I watched they were talking about Charie Sheen(white) and his drug problems.. the Saudi college student arrested in Texas(Arabic?) The rest was about the Middle East uprisings, the wisconsin uprisings lol... I dont recall one story about  a black guy or girl being arrested or getting in trouble at all.... /shrug*
> 
> ...if the crack epidemic,gang warfare,Welfare problems,and the like were saddled with your face when those problems most definitely originated elsewhere...
> 
> *see the gangs down here are mostly hispanic, crack isnt prevalent here.. meth and oxy and pot seem to be and those always seem to be associated on the news with hispanics or whites for the most part. Welfare? seems to be all races, and seems to be a ridiculous amount of people in California in general. *
> 
> ...if the one time you saw a White President ascend to office,he's not only strapped with the greatest deficit in human history but when he achieves extraordinary feats in the face of insuperable obstacles that literally no other human being in world history has faced you not only see him demeaned by a sizeable portion of the Black public which has little to NO idea what they're talking about,and this public also spawns a run on weaponry,and asinine movements like Birthers and Deathers,and you overhear Black people who you thought were intelligent and might not be racist huddle together in sizeable groups when they think they're not being overheard and blather in fear that the new White president is going to start enforced reparations and put Black people in slavery...
> 
> *ya here is something I call BS on... what extraordinary feats has Obama accomplished? I can't think of anything even mediocre, he has not really done anything he said he would, and managed to make things alot worse in my eyes.*
> *I tend to think that several presidents have tougher administrations then Obama has.. we have had several massive wars in our history a great depression, cold war, missle crisis, etc.etc.. quite a few things actually... I have heard of Birthers... wth is a deather? I talk to alot of peopel that dont ike Obamas policies, I have never heard any talk of reparations until now, and once again what are you talking about slavery?*
> 
> ...if every time a White person does something that causes social ripples you see the environment at your job change and become more hostile and the glass ceiling which is there for you especially lowers even more...
> 
> *see I dont have this worry, I refuse to work for other people period.*
> 
> ...these things and many more...
> 
> ...yeah you might start to get an outside taste of what it means to be a strong Black unafraid articulate physically capable educated culturally connected person in America today.You MIGHT.Maybe.


 
wow...
see the problem is I don't need to know what its like to be anyone but me.
the point I was making was not that I have suffered worse racial prejudice then any black person in history, because that would be plain silly.
I simply saw a comment that seems ridiculous to me because my experience has been quite different from what that comment would insinuate.
Racism sucks no matter what race you are.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Twin Fist said:


> ok, Mr Semantics
> 
> hows this?
> 
> there are less white people with racist beliefs than ever before.
> 
> example?
> 
> we (whites) elected the moron in the oval office. He couldnt have gotten elected without white votes.
> 
> we, speaking for myself, my family, my peers, have moved on, by and large. White americans will now bend over backwards to prove how NOT racist we are.
> 
> we SHUN david duke
> 
> Al Sharpton still has a job. John Whiley Price, google it. Shelia Jackson Lee.
> 
> exceptions always exist, but the white racist? he is the exception now. If you think he is not, then YOU know not of what you speak.


 
Sorry, I'm just one of those people that thinks words are important.  You know, unless you speak clearly, it kind of makes it difficult for people to know what the hell you're talking about.

There is no arguing that there are less racists in the U.S.  I'll give you that no problem.  But when you make a blanket statement "it isn't the white folks who are racist", then that actually means something.  

And the fact of the matter is, there are still a sizable number of white racists in the U.S.  There are also a number of Black racists.  But, once again, you use such a broad brush as to invite opposition to your statements.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

ATACX GYM said:


> Both of you are making mistakes based upon not knowing the specifics of the distinct difference between racial PREJUDICE and INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM. Racial PREJUDICE is specific to individuals...and refers to individuals who may dislike another race purely upon the basis of race.INSTITUTIONAL racism refers to a group that is the political majority (the group in power) enshrining its values in such a way that every major institution in society favors them and specifically discriminates against others not of their race.Institutionalized racism in this country is very very very much alive.The fact remains that--population wide--the reality for Black people in the United States is still starkly different than our White compatriots,and the differences are borne of institutionalized racism.
> 
> So YOU may not be racist.I am not,others may not be.But the INSTITUTION/SYSTEM IS,and the people who perpetuate it don't even have to be racist to perpetuate a racist institution.Not every cop in the USA is racist.The policing policies and effects are assuredly racist,nationwide.No question or doubt.Not every doctor in the U.S.A. or employer is racist.There is no doubt that there is traumatic differences between the educational and health opportunities afforded White and Black people with White people receiving many critical services in many areas that are just not available to Black people because we're Black.And that,ladies and germs,is INSTITUTIONAL racism.
> 
> And it'll stay that way until we fundamentally and more fairly (for everyone) rework the primary institutions in these United States of America.
> 
> Btw,if President Obama is a "moron",what President would you consider his intellectual superior? Why? What President within say the last 40 years did a better job? Why?


 
No, I very clearly understand the difference between a 'racist' and a prejudiced individual.  It is not only institutions that are racist, but people can be as well.  

And I can certainly appreciate the idea of legacy issues regarding institutional racism.

However....

You use the example of public school funding.  Well, while that may affect Black more disproportionately, it would affect *all*  poorer people.  This would be more of an example of classism then institutional racism.  Unless of course the intent would be to sacrifice a few whites for the destruction of most Blacks.  But here again we would revert to individual racism.  

And of course getting rid of Affirmative Action would disproportionately affect Blacks over whites.  That is the very nature of these types of programs.  But, that does not mean that the effect of getting rid of such programs would be a net negative.  I have to say that when you use the concept that the reason that we need them is because of the "subtle, hard to see" nature of modern racism, you lose me.  One can see consipiracys anywhere if you look hard enough.   

You make the argument of left- vs. right- wing racism.  Well, I think that's a matter of perspective.  I actually think that it is more racist to tell me that I can't succeed because I'm Black, then it is to tell me to f*** off and figure out how to succeed on my own.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

ATACX GYM said:


> No,something a bit more than that.I would say...
> 
> if you've ever been pulled over at gun point by police,harassed,jailed,lost your life,or know anyone who has...and know that this can happen to you at any moment of any day PURELY because you're White...


 
That is based on an individuals actions.  You have to show how this particular behavior is institutionalized.  I work in law enforcement.  I have to say that I have seen no institutional policies that allow for the unlawful treatment of Blacks or other minorities.  In fact, I have seen quite the opposite in my time.



> ...if your life expectancy,quality of life,education level,income level,health care,etc. is held to a permanently lower level (14-25%) say than your Black contemporaries whose educational level you may EXCEED,merely because you're White...


 
Held at that level by whom, and in what way.  You're good with accusations, but very thin on support.



> ...if the aspects of your culture and your skin color is more associated with the criminal element and all things undesirable...


 
Held by whom.  Even if the majority of people viewed things in this way, once again it is an example of personal prejudice, not institutional racism.



> ...if say the overwhelming majority of people in your country are utterly convinced that all of the old Kings of England were Black when of course they're White and all of Europe's achievements were seen as the direct result of the civilization that Black people built there when you know for a fact that the exact opposite is true,but were you to say anything challenging the contentions of Black and many White people who are wedded to their ignorance and illusions,all manner of ill may befall you...


 
Uh, what?



> ...if you not only couldn't name 3 countries from the continent from which you hail but you can't speak the language and know nothing of its internal workings...


 
I think most Blacks in the U.S. know that their from the U.S., and could easily name the U.S., Canada, and Mexico as three countries on the continent from which they hail.  And most can speak English, although some rather badly.  And they know at least the rudiments of the U.S. electoral process.  

Oh.  Or are you talking about the fact that I should know something about a continent (Africa) to which I've never been and have only a slight interest in visiting.   



> ...if you see more of your people and people who look like you in negative positions regularly in the news,like being cuffed by police and singled out as underachieving in almost every desirable endeavor,and it was not-so-subtly suggested that this was the case because they're White like you...


 
I see examples of very high acheiving Blacks all the time.  And not just in sports.  Of course, God forbid, you may have to decide to look at something other then the TV to do so.  



> ...if the crack epidemic,gang warfare,Welfare problems,and the like were saddled with your face when those problems most definitely originated elsewhere...


 
Really?  And where did they originate?



> ...if the one time you saw a White President ascend to office,he's not only strapped with the greatest deficit in human history but when he achieves extraordinary feats in the face of insuperable obstacles that literally no other human being in world history has faced you not only see him demeaned by a sizeable portion of the Black public which has little to NO idea what they're talking about,and this public also spawns a run on weaponry,and asinine movements like Birthers and Deathers,and you overhear Black people who you thought were intelligent and might not be racist huddle together in sizeable groups when they think they're not being overheard and blather in fear that the new White president is going to start enforced reparations and put Black people in slavery...


 
Let's break it down:  this is not the greatest deficit in human history (see Germany circa WWII, U.S. during the Great Depression).  What "extraordinary feats" has Obama done?  He hasn't done anything more extraordinary then any other President.  He still hasn't been demonized by the Black public, except in the fact that he hasn't been willing to push harder for his agenda.  And some of what you are claiming people talked about in "hushed circles" happened with, oh, every opposition group against a President' agenda.



> ...if every time a White person does something that causes social ripples you see the environment at your job change and become more hostile and the glass ceiling which is there for you especially lowers even more...


 
Uh, what?



> ...yeah you might start to get an outside taste of what it means to be a strong Black unafraid articulate physically capable educated culturally connected person in America today.You MIGHT.Maybe.


 
It's funny.  I'm all of the things that  you're mentioning yet see the world nothing like you do.


----------



## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> Odd  to me that you're not protected by a procedure or policy statement that gives this process uniformity...



The Process is the same for everyone its that same questions filled in for everyone.  Normally you can answer most question with out asking like male/female normally thats not a hard one.


----------



## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> The Process is the same for everyone its that same questions filled in for everyone. Normally you can answer most question with out asking like male/female normally thats not a hard one.


 
Oh...okay. What do you think would be put down for this man's race?


----------



## Big Don

elder999 said:


> Oh...okay. What do you think would be put down for this man's race?


Human.


----------



## Empty Hands

Big Don said:


> Human.



Been arresting many non-humans lately?


----------



## Big Don

Empty Hands said:


> Been arresting many non-humans lately?


No, but, then I don't arrest anyone.
Not being in law enforcement really cuts down on my arrest rate.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*There are racists everwhere*, in every country, society and of course in every group of people.  That is reality!  It really does not matter whether they are white, black, Asian, etc. they are there and anyone who has traveled the world will agree.  It is not a group thing per se but an individual person thing.  Some people just go to far to the side in their groups believing that they are the chosen people.  We humans have done this forever so it is nothing new.  While the group as a whole is not racist.  However, I think we can all agree that to varying degrees *that it is better than it used to be*.  Not everywhere of course there are some pockets that are still terrible but as people see, meet and hang out with each other these barriers go down more and more.  You can certainly see this in Las Vegas which is a huge melting pot!  Lots of people from different areas and races all mix together and by and large get along great! * Since we live in a global world now* where people can travel anywhere more people continue to meet other people from different parts of the world and get to know them.  This helps on many levels just like having President Barak Obama in the White House helps to show that anyone of any background can be President.  Just like Bobby Jihndel (hope I spelled that right) is Governor of Louisiana and is Indian.  Times are changing for the good even though racism is still out there!  I as a white person have experienced some racism not only here in the US but also across the world.  However, it has always been minor and the VAST MAJORITY of people are simply not that way!  No, instead they are kind, caring, loving and just plain enjoyable to be around!  *My kid's are biracial and you know they are the fastest growing group not only in America but in other parts of the world as well!!!  *


----------



## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> Oh...okay. What do you think would be put down for this man's race?



Id ask.  I already said I don't assume anymore after my last mistake I ask every question on the computer screen even if its obvious.


----------



## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> Id ask. I already said I don't assume anymore after my last mistake I ask every question on the computer screen even if its obvious.


 
And what if he said he was "black?"

What if you arrested someone with the same skin-tone as Obama, and he said he was "white?"


----------



## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> And what if he said he was "black?"
> 
> What if you arrested someone with the same skin-tone as Obama, and he said he was "white?"



I mark down what they tell me because It really does not matter to me.  As long as they dont lie about name and dob and I get his fingerprints I could careless if he tells me hes a Martian.  His name and fingerprints are all I really need.
I dont see the point in the question your asking.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

elder999 said:


> And what if he said he was "black?"
> 
> What if you arrested someone with the same skin-tone as Obama, and he said he was "white?"


 
I think Elder is looking for you to say that you tell him to know his place accept what you call him or you will beat him senseless...
at least that would be something he could use at a later date against you...

but seriously Elder why dont you get to a point instead of tryint to bait people.
he said twice now that he asks every question, he admited he once made a mistake... so what if someone who looks like Obama claims they are white when arrested... what do you want them to do?? Lets hear your take.


----------



## Twin Fist

Thats how Jeff amuses himself, he baits people


----------



## ballen0351

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I think Elder is looking for you to say that you tell him to know his place accept what you call him or you will beat him senseless...
> at least that would be something he could use at a later date against you...
> 
> but seriously Elder why dont you get to a point instead of tryint to bait people.
> he said twice now that he asks every question, he admited he once made a mistake... so what if someone who looks like Obama claims they are white when arrested... what do you want them to do?? Lets hear your take.



Oh I know what elder was trying to do.  I was just playing along waiting for the "Got you" moment


----------



## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> Oh I know what elder was trying to do. I was just playing along waiting for the "Got you" moment


 

Well, I can only ask what you do, and you answered, but-since there's no set procedure-can you say the same about the other officers? More to the point, can you see how absolutely _ridiculous_ it would be for someone of Obama's coloration to say they are "white," especially under such circumstances? I mean, the entire thing is ridiculous, but that would be......_beyond pale_ :lfao:


----------



## Empty Hands

Twin Fist said:


> Thats how Jeff amuses himself, he baits people



It is fun being a master at baiting.


----------



## Twin Fist

Empty Hands said:


> It is fun being a master at baiting.



i think i understand, but i just cant quite seem to wrap my hands around it


----------



## elder999

Twin Fist said:


> Thats how Jeff amuses himself, he baits people


 

It's not baiting-ballen has said that Obama should be called- and perhaps, call himself-"bi-racial." It's been my position that he should be called what he wants to be called-or, barring that, what he appears to be. ballen mentioned a perfect circumstance from work for such a practice, and I offered an example, and asked _a completely appropriate question_, which-while he answered completely, and, I have to believe, _honestly_-was really a rhetorical demonstration of the absurdity of ballen's position.



Twin Fist said:


> i think i understand, but i just cant quite seem to wrap my hands around it


 
Oh, and I've used both hands since I was 11......still can't quite wrap them around it, though, and I've got big hands......:lfao:


----------



## Big Don

Charlize Theron
African American


----------



## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> Well, I can only ask what you do, and you answered, but-since there's no set procedure-can you say the same about the other officers? More to the point, can you see how absolutely _ridiculous_ it would be for someone of Obama's coloration to say they are "white," especially under such circumstances? I mean, the entire thing is ridiculous, but that would be......_beyond pale_ :lfao:


I was friends with a girl in school whos skin was white as a piece of paper and both her parents were black.  She even had blond hair it was a medical condition.

And I was only speaking of past places Ive worked since in my current place of work we have centralized booking so police officers dont do the booking anyway correctional staff does it.  Besides even if we didnt I only do undercover work right now so I dont interact with anyone that's already under arrest.  So there very well could be a policy thats used but im not aware of it since I don't deal with that part anymore.


----------



## ballen0351

Big Don said:


> Charlize Theron
> African American


And SUPER HOT shes one of my Favs


----------



## punisher73

Big Don said:


> Charlize Theron
> African American


 
That is why I have never understood the politically correct term.  I remember working with alot of INS inmates and they would get so upset to be called "African American".  They all insisted that they were "black" and then name their country of origin.


----------



## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> It's not baiting-ballen has said that Obama should be called- and perhaps, call himself-"bi-racial." It's been my position that he should be called what he wants to be called-or, barring that, what he appears to be. ballen mentioned a perfect circumstance from work for such a practice, and I offered an example, and asked _a completely appropriate question_, which-while he answered completely, and, I have to believe, _honestly_-was really a rhetorical demonstration of the absurdity of ballen's position.


I think he could help alot of people by being proud of his race.  I mentioned my niece before she has adjusted well now that she older but early in school between 3 and 6 grades she had it rough because she could not figure out what she was.  She was picked on in school, she would cry at night because she didnt get why she was darker then the white kids and lighter then the black kids.  She got so bad she would wish she was white and cry at night.  Then it got worse where she was even ashamed of being a girl she was so confused she would write stories wishing she was a white boy she would pick at her skin with her nails until it would bleed.  Now my sisters a P.O.S. and my parents ended up taking her in for a while and sent her to theropy and she was able to work through it and now shes proud that shes special and is happy.  She still has masive scars from picking her arms but is doing well.


----------



## Big Don

ballen0351 said:


> I think he could help alot of people by being proud of his race.


Uh, except, for the FACT that white people are not allowed to be proud of their race, or, if they are, they certainly aren't allowed to mention it.


----------



## elder999

Big Don said:


> Charlize Theron
> African American


 
Actually, she's South African-not "American" at all. EDIT: Oops, my bad-naturalized in 2007.....guess Don reads _People_ alot more than I ever will....:lol:

I worked with a physicist from South Africa who'd become an American citizen; he'd often confer with me "_as one African American to another_....." :lfao:



ballen0351 said:


> I think he could help alot of people by being proud of his race. .


 
Clearly, he *is*:



> I was trying to raise myself to be a black man in America, and beyond the given of my appearance, no one around me seemed to know exactly what that meant." Honolulu&#8217;s paucity of African-Americans means he has to learn to be black from the media: "TV, movies, the radio; those were places to start. Pop culture was color-coded, after all, an arcade of images from which you could cop a walk, a talk, a step, a style."
> 
> "...never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn&#8217;t speak to my own. It was into my father&#8217;s image, the black man, son of Africa, that I&#8217;d packed all the attributes I sought in myself..."


----------



## elder999

Big Don said:


> Uh, except, for the FACT that white people are not allowed to be proud of their race, or, if they are, they certainly aren't allowed to mention it.


 

I'm so tired of hearing this.

I guess all those Irish/Irish-Americans on St. Patrick's Day aren't "proud":



> The first St Patrick's Day parade in New York City was held in 1766 organized by Irish soldiers serving in His Majesty's servicSponsored by the Ancient Order of Hibernians, the more than 150,000 marchers are members of various Irish societies from New York and around the country; many Eire-based societies make the Atlantic crossing to trek the two miles uptown.


 
And the Italians aren't proud, either.... or maybe not "white?"

I could go on, but I'd like to ask, just how are white people not allowed to be proud? Except, of course, that the phrase "white pride" has been coopted by a bunch of racist asshats?


----------



## Twin Fist

well, it is a fact that as soon as someone says "white pride" people assume they are racist....


----------



## Big Don

elder999 said:


> I'm so tired of hearing this.
> 
> I guess all those Irish/Irish-Americans on St. Patrick's Day aren't "proud":
> 
> 
> 
> And the Italians aren't proud, either.... or maybe not "white?"


Two examples, both misidentified as proud of being white... 
St Patrick's day is "IRISH pride", not white
Likewise, "Italian pride" is focused not on race, but, national origin. 





> I could go on, but I'd like to ask, just how are white people not allowed to be proud? Except, of course, that the phrase "white pride" has been coopted by a bunch of racist asshats?


That is exactly it, and the co-opting of the term has been lovingly embraced by the media.


----------



## elder999

Big Don said:


> Two examples, both misidentified as proud of being white...
> St Patrick's day is "IRISH pride", not white
> Likewise, "Italian pride" is focused not on race, but, national origin. .


 
And now I am confused.

Are you saying that Irish people aren't "white?"

Are you saying that "Irish" is a "race?"

Are you saying that "Italian" isn't a "race?"

Are you saying that "national origin" *is* a race?

Are you saying that "white" is a "race?"


----------



## yorkshirelad

elder999 said:


> And now I am confused.
> 
> Are you saying that Irish people aren't "white?"
> 
> Are you saying that "Irish" is a "race?"
> 
> Are you saying that "Italian" isn't a "race?"
> 
> Are you saying that "national origin" *is* a race?
> 
> Are you saying that "white" is a "race?"


 
Paul McGrath and Samantha Mumba are both Black, yet they are Irish and proud of it. Phil. Phil Lynott (pardon the spelling) of 'Thin Lizzy' was also Black and Irish. They are Irish because they were born and raised in Ireland and there is not a single Irish person that I know that would consider them otherwise.

There are however, many 'Irish Americans' who many Irish people consider "Plastic Paddys.

You can be Black and be a proud Irishman at the same time. If white people proclaim their pride at being white however, they are considered racists. This is not the case for Blacks. I will say though, how anyone would be proud of their skin pigmentation is beyond me. I often wondered how white people can have blue eyes, red cheeks, blond hair, and freckles and yet refer to Black people as coloured.:rofl:


----------



## granfire

yorkshirelad said:


> Paul McGrath and Samantha Mumba are both Black, yet they are Irish and proud of it. Phil. Phil Lynott (pardon the spelling) of 'Thin Lizzy' was also Black and Irish. They are Irish because they were born and raised in Ireland and there is not a single Irish person that I know that would consider them otherwise.
> 
> There are however, many 'Irish Americans' who many Irish people consider "Plastic Paddys.
> 
> You can be Black and be a proud Irishman at the same time. If white people proclaim their pride at being white however, they are considered racists. This is not the case for Blacks. I will say though, how anyone would be proud of their skin pigmentation is beyond me.* I often wondered how white people can have blue eyes, red cheeks, blond hair, and freckles and yet refer to Black people as coloured.*:rofl:



:lfao:


----------



## elder999

yorkshirelad said:


> Paul McGrath and Samantha Mumba are both Black, yet they are Irish and proud of it. Phil. Phil Lynott (pardon the spelling) of 'Thin Lizzy' was also Black and Irish. They are Irish because they were born and raised in Ireland and there is not a single Irish person that I know that would consider them otherwise.


 
....and they don't march in the St. Patrick's day parade, do they?



yorkshirelad said:


> There are however, many 'Irish Americans' who many Irish people consider "Plastic Paddys."


 
IS that anything like an "oreo," or an "apple indian?" I've been called both-not true.

Had a Chinese friend called a "banana Asian." 

"Plastic Paddy." Filed and noted.



yorkshirelad said:


> You can be Black and be a proud Irishman at the same time. If white people proclaim their pride at being white however, they are considered racists.


 
As I said, only because of a few racist asshats-no one says you can't be proud of what you are.



yorkshirelad said:


> This is not the case for Blacks. I will say though, how anyone would be proud of their skin pigmentation is beyond me.


 
I have a lively, spotted, and ruddy peanut butter color that is unique and resplendent! :lfao:


----------



## billc

Well Steve, Iwould have to say, curious question, but who should care.  Barak is simply a man, we should try to stay there and leave race out of it.  Impossible, I know, but it is to be hoped for.


----------



## yorkshirelad

> elder999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....and they don't march in the St. Patrick's day parade, do they?
> 
> 
> 
> Which St. Patrick's day parade? Of course Phil Lynott doesn't, he dead. I have to say that McGrath most probably did in Dublin. He was the manager of the Irish National Football team. As for Samantha Mumba, when I was living in Dublin she was one of the most famous singer/actresses at the time, so she was probably too busy partying it up. Everyone, (including herself) considers her Irish, and I've never even heard it mentioned that she is somehow not Irish because of her skin tone.
> 
> If you haven't been to Dublin on St. Patrick's day, it really is a sight to behold. People from all over the world march; blacks, Indians all races and colors. People from all over the world go to watch and participate.
> 
> Dublin is quite cosmopolitan, there is even a small Chinatown in Dublin city. It's right behind South Great George Street. The people of Chinese heritage who were born there are considered more Irish than me. After all, I may look Irish, and my parents are Irish, but I was born in England, so I'm considered British by the Irish populace.
Click to expand...


----------



## elder999

yorkshirelad said:


> Which St. Patrick's day parade? .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but we're talking about here in the USA....where _most_ of the Irish are "white," including the "black Irish." :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> billcihak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Steve, Iwould have to say, curious question, but who should care. Barak is simply a man, we should try to stay there and leave race out of it. Impossible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Seriously, though-*we're talking about here in the USA*, where I've been told that I "_talk nice, without all that jive_" *and* been told that I "_talk like you want to be white._ Where I've been arrested just for being black in Palm Beach.(Don't believe me? When I asked for the charge, the cop said _How about I charge you with being a ****** on the sidewalk on a sunny day?_) Where people-sometimes people I've been just introduced to and sometimes complete strangers from just across the room-will come up to me and politely ask "_What ethnicity are you_?" or, less politely (and comically) _*"What* are you_?" or, "_What kind of Indian are you_?" or "_Are you Samoan or something_?" Where I've been told by black barbers that I have "nice _white_ hair," and told by white barbers that they can't cut my hair.
> 
> Where, in just 2007, I was called "******" for the umpteenth time, though the first time in New Mexico, after nearly 14 years.
> 
> Where my son has been called _zebra,_ or _porch monkey_ and heard his mother defamed simply for having me for his father.
> 
> Where I regularly have had to tell people that yes, I am the person who occupies this office, the one you were looking for, and gloss over their initial shock.
> 
> And as much as all that has hurt me as an individual-or as little, for I'm rather thick skinned, actually, especially at 50-it's nakedly true that race and color *matter* in this country. That no matter how much I don't blame or hate "white people" for how I'm treated-or can expect to be treated-(and I don't) such things are part of our _society_, and *will be for a long time.*
> 
> Barack Obama is *black*, because that's what people _see, _and that's what he *says*.
> 
> I have my own opinions about how he _feels_ about his "white" heritage-and they're not good-but, since being in politics, he's never publicly denied it. He doesn't look nearly like as much of a mutt as I do, though-and that's never kept anyone who wanted to from calling me "******, or led to anyone calling him "white."
> 
> Almost all "African Americans," that is to say, descendents of the African diaspora that was American slavery, are 15-20% _"white."_
> 
> *No one* has ever called me "white."
Click to expand...


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

elder999 said:


> yorkshirelad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but we're talking about here in the USA....where _most_ of the Irish are "white," including the "black Irish." :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, though-*we're talking about here in the USA*, where I've been told that I "_talk nice, without all that jive_" *and* been told that I "_talk like you want to be white._ Where I've been arrested just for being black in Palm Beach.(Don't believe me? When I asked for the charge, the cop said _How about I charge you with being a ****** on the sidewalk on a sunny day?_) Where people-sometimes people I've been just introduced to and sometimes complete strangers from just across the room-will come up to me and politely ask "_What ethnicity are you_?" or, less politely (and comically) _*"What* are you_?" or, "_What kind of Indian are you_?" or "_Are you Samoan or something_?" Where I've been told by black barbers that I have "nice _white_ hair," and told by white barbers that they can't cut my hair.
> 
> Where, in just 2007, I was called "******" for the umpteenth time, though the first time in New Mexico, after nearly 14 years.
> 
> Where my son has been called _zebra,_ or _porch monkey_ and heard his mother defamed simply for having me for his father.
> 
> Where I regularly have had to tell people that yes, I am the person who occupies this office, the one you were looking for, and gloss over their initial shock.
> 
> And as much as all that has hurt me as an individual-or as little, for I'm rather thick skinned, actually, especially at 50-it's nakedly true that race and color *matter* in this country. That no matter how much I don't blame or hate "white people" for how I'm treated-or can expect to be treated-(and I don't) such things are part of our _society_, and *will be for a long time.*
> 
> Barack Obama is *black*, because that's what people _see_.
> 
> I have my own opinions about how he _feels_ about his "white" heritage-and they'er not good-but, since being in politics, he's never publicly denied it. He doesn't look nearly like as much of a mutt as I do, though-and that's never kept anyone who wanted to from calling me "******."
> 
> Almost all "African Americans," that is to say, descendents of the African diaspora that was American slavery, are 15-20% _"white."_
> 
> *No one* has ever called me "white."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so there are 317 million something odd people in the US.
> you have been called racial names by what 100 or them?
> 1000?
> even if it was 3,000,000 thats still less then 1% of the population.
> I imagine that even as ridiculous as that sounds if you took how many people you have met with how many have called you or treated you in a racist way that the number is probably still less then 1%
> I would think that doesnt suggest a racist agenda, or even that race is so important as you mentioned.
> I would say that is a pretty damn low number...
> 
> fat people see more hatred based on the size
> ugly people see more hatred based on their looks
> homeless people see more hatred based on their situation
> 
> Hell you can go on and on.
> 
> the fact that instutions who are even suggested to have had an employee that say a racist thing, or discriminate are forcefully protested against, and lose massive amonts of business or are even shut down whether its true or not would tend to suggest that the opposite of what you say is much more prevalant.
> I would say racism is mostly a thing of the past with small percentages of ignorance tossed in, but none of any importance.
Click to expand...


----------



## elder999

LuckyKBoxer said:


> [
> so there are 317 million something odd people in the US.
> you have been called racial names by what 100 or them?
> 1000?
> even if it was 3,000,000 thats still less then 1% of the population.
> I would think that doesnt suggest a racist agenda, or even that race is so important as you mentioned.
> I would say that is a pretty damn low number...


 
And I would say that if 1 person had done it, it's too goddam high for the post-racial utopia that so many people in non-brown skin seem to want to imagine that we all live in.

Multiply that "100 people" who called me names, multiply that by 42 million, and thats not such a "damn low number" at all, because my experiences aren't the exception-they're the norm.

And there doesn't have to be an "agenda" for there to be *reality*, and, whether you like it, or _see it_ (and, if you don't _live_ it, how can you _see_ it) it's *real*.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> [I would say racism is mostly a thing of the past with small percentages of ignorance tossed in, but none of any importance.



And I would say that it's all important-both ways.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

elder999 said:


> And I would say that if 1 person had done it, it's too goddam high for the post-racial utopia that so many people in non-brown skin seem to want to imagine that we all live in.
> 
> Multiply that "100 people" who called me names, multiply that by 42 million, and thats not such a "damn low number" at all, because my experiences aren't the exception-they're the norm.
> 
> And there doesn't have to be an "agenda" for there to be *reality*, and, whether you like it, or _see it_ (and, if you don't _live_ it, how can you _see_ it) it's *real*.
> 
> 
> 
> And I would say that it's all important-both ways.


 
ya like I have said in the past I have a similar experience being called racist names by other people, however I take it for what it is, a bunch of worthless ignorant fools, regardless of their race, and regardless who they do it to.
what because I am white and someone of color blasts me with racial comments thats ok, or doesnt count because im not of color?
Or it doesnt count as the same for what reason?
is there a good reason?


----------



## elder999

LuckyKBoxer said:


> ya like I have said in the past I have a similar experience being called racist names by other people, however I take it for what it is, a bunch of worthless ignorant fools, regardless of their race, and regardless who they do it to.
> what because I am white and someone of color blasts me with racial comments thats ok, or doesnt count because im not of color?
> Or it doesnt count as the same for what reason?
> is there a good reason?


 

No, it *all* counts, and all that you've said supports what *I've* said.



			
				el brujo de la Cueva said:
			
		

> And I would say that it's all important-both ways.


----------



## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> Where I've been arrested just for being black in Palm Beach.(Don't believe me? When I asked for the charge, the cop said _How about I charge you with being a ****** on the sidewalk on a sunny day?_) "


Im throwing the BS Flag on that one right there.


----------



## Twin Fist

thats a little hard to swallow there Jeff


----------



## billc

Elder999, you need to stop hanging around with so many democrats.  The name calling and racial epithets would be a lot less.


----------



## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> Im throwing the BS Flag on that one right there.


 
I've told this story here before-as in before you got here, ballen-and I'll point out that in every profession, there are people who are _completely unprofessional._

1980. I was going to visit my friend from boarding school at his home. For a little background, I was flying my freak flag at the time: full beard (my second one!), bandana, cutoff, and riding a hard-tailed Triumph (38 hrs. from Peekskill, NY to Palm Beach). I was tired and irritable, but *after I got pulled over I remained polite. *

After all, I hadn't done anything, I had nothing to worry about, right?

At the time, there was a lot of talk about requiring domestic servants in that part of Palm Beach to carry ID to prove they belonged there-that is to say, ID cards to prove that _their brown to mocha asses belonged there._ It made the papers and TV, there was quite a bit of controversy-it was even ridiculed in _Doonesbury_. Lee's family has what's called "old money"-in fact, years later at his wedding ceremony, which my father officiated, he told me that he was the first one in his family in something like 60 years to hold a job. 

Anyway, for his house, imagine a place like Donald Trump's down there, Mar el Largo, or whatever-Lee had a sweet set-up of 9 trampolines set into a pit at ground level out in the yard, and lived next door to Alice Cooper. I was looking forward to a good time.

Anyway, I get pulled over-license and registration are good. He asks me where I'm going, and I tell him. _The hell you say,_ he replies, and I say, no, really, Lee's a friend from school. 

Unbeknownst to me, Lee's dad and grandad are well known for throwing epic parties, and , at the front gate, there's a sign that reads something to the effect of , _Deliveries, Caterers, and *Police*, please use service entrance._

He proceeds to search me-lays all my stuff from my backpack on the side of the road, but there's nothing in there-not even a knife or a joint, at which point he looks at me and says, _Well, I'm going to have to take you in._ 

I ask the charge, and you know the rest. Spent 6 hrs. in the lockup before they even let me call Lee- when they got to the station, his dad offered to get the guy fired, but I told him-pissed as I was-that that's just life in brown skin, and I'd be glad to get my stuff, my bike and my *** back in one piece......

Oh, and there's a B.S. flag smiley that you could have flown, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Maybe it was because Lee's dad and grandad were thought of as troublemakers-I don't know one way or the other, but that sign couldn't have made any cop happy. Maybe it was just because the cop didn't believe me. But that's not what I believe, *and it's not what he said.*

*All I had to say in this thread, and you call B.S. to a 30 year old story that I've told many times.*


----------



## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> I've told this story here before-as in before you got here, ballen-and I'll point out that in every profession, there are people who are _completely unprofessional._
> 
> 1980. I was going to visit my friend from boarding school at his home. For a little background, I was flying my freak flag at the time: full beard (my second one!0, bandana, cutoff, and riding a hard-tailed Triumph (38 hrs. from Peekskill, NY to Palm Beach). I was tired and irritable, but *after I got pulled over I remained polite. *
> 
> After all, I hadn't done anything, I had nothing to worry about, right?
> 
> At the time, there was a lot of talk about requiring domestic servants in that part of Palm Beach to carry ID to prove they belonged there-that is to say, ID cards to prove that _their brown to mocha asses belonged there._ It made the papers and TV, there was quite a bit of controversy-it was even ridiculed in _Doonesbury_. Lee's family has what's called "old money"-in fact, years later at his wedding ceremony, which my father officiated at, he told me that he was the first one in his family in something like 60 years to hold a job.
> 
> Anyway, for his house, imagine a place like Donald Trump's down there, Mar el Largo, or whatever-Lee had a sweet set-up of 9 trampolines set into a pit at ground level out in the yard, and lived next door to Alice Cooper. I was looking forward to a good time.
> 
> Anyway, I get pulled over-license and registration are good. He asks me where I'm going, and I tell him. _The hell you say,_ he replies, and I say, no, really, Lee's a friend from school.
> 
> Unbeknownst to me, Lee's dad and grandad are well known for throwing epic parties, and , at the front gate, there's a sign that reads something to the effect of , _Deliveries, Caterers, and *Police*, please use service entrance.
> 
> He proceeds to search me-lays all my stuff from my backpack on the side of the road, but there's nothing in there-not even a knife or a joint, at which point he looks at me and says, Well, I'm going to have to take you in.
> 
> I ask the charge, and you know the rest. Spent 6 hrs. in the lockup before they even let me call Lee-his dad offered to get the guy fired, but I told him-pissed as I was-that that's just life in brown skin, and I'd be glad to get my stuff, my bike and my *** back in one piece......
> 
> Oh, and there's a B.S. flag smiley that you could have flown, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Maybe it was because Lee's dad and grandad were thought of as troublemakers-I don't know one way or the other, but that sign couldn't have made any cop happy. Maybe it was just because the cop didn't believe me. But that's not what I believe, *and it's not what he said.*_


_
So what were you charged with?
Oh and Im not big on using the smileys and things Heck I just learned to multi-quote the other day_


----------



## billc

The six hours in lock up is not unusual.  I had a kid in one of my english classes, he was fishing with his father in one of our northern states, left his dad to go to the local store to get something and was pulled over.  He fit the description of a suspect, I forget what the crime was, was arrested and spent Thursday to Monday in the county jail, and wasn't able to make a call because of some screw up at the county facility.  He wasn't even the guy.  He was a white kid as well.


----------



## ballen0351

Elder I have to run its Midnight and time to go home but I wanted to say I'm sorry that happened to you.  Police Work has changed alot in the last 30 years its not excuse for what was done but had that happened today that officer would be the one in jail and rightfully so.


----------



## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> So what were you charged with?
> Oh and Im not big on using the smileys and things Heck I just learned to multi-quote the other day


 
I wasn't charged with ****. I was taken in on suspicion.......as in suspicion of whatever they could come up with had happen in the short time I'd been in their miserable, flat, rednecked, room-temperature IQ'ed excuse of a state. You know what's wrong with Florida? Too many goddam Floridians. :lol:



billcihak said:


> Elder999, you need to stop hanging around with so many democrats. The name calling and racial epithets would be a lot less.


 
Just so you know, bill, because I've posted it here before, I'm a registerd Republican-have been for a long time. The only Democrats I know of that I "hang around with" are my mom and my wife. My mom doesn't use racial epithets, and the only time my wife does is in bed.......and I don't mind one bit....:lfao:

(Nah, she doesn't really-I just thought that was a funny thing to say...hell, it's worse than that: Rita votes Green Party :lfao: )



ballen0351 said:


> Elder I have to run its Midnight and time to go home but I wanted to say I'm sorry that happened to you. Police Work has changed alot in the last 30 years its not excuse for what was done but had that happened today that officer would be the one in jail and rightfully so.


 
No need for you to say sorry-and thanks. Honestly, though-I'm pretty thick skinned, and lucky it wasn't '65, or I might have been fed to the 'gators....:lol: 
And I'm not bitter at all-I've come to relish all my life experiences, even the ones that were miserable-and I love *everyone*, except _morons_.

It's worth remembering, though, that-while police work in most places *has* changed a lot in the last 30 years, _*racist *morons_ are still pretty much the same, and there's not much pre-employment screening for that....


----------



## Blade96

oh jeez, elder, I'm sorry for what happened to you.


----------



## Twin Fist

so the moral of the story is you look like a hell's angels reject you will get treated like one.


----------



## Blade96

Twin Fist said:


> so the moral of the story is you look like a hell's angels reject you will get treated like one.



Another moral is if you act like an asshat you will get treated like one. 

So take a hint.


----------



## Twin Fist

you trying to say something ?

and I dont think Jeff was acting like an asshat, so that doesnt even work....


try again


----------



## elder999

Twin Fist said:


> so the moral of the story is you look like a hell's angels reject you will get treated like one.


 

One of those H.A. guys might have gotten the same treatment after getting pulled over, but I'm willing to bet that if he were as polite and compliant as I was he'd have been allowed to go on his way, and, if not, the cop would have at least offered some B.S. charge, instead of a rude, *racist*, and completely unecessary comment......

.....of course, it would be another coupla years before looking like a Hell's Angels reject would become completely fashionable for _poser_ doctors, lawyers, *and* policemen, so I guess I was, as always, ahead of my time...:lfao:


----------



## Twin Fist

or something...


----------



## yorkshirelad

LuckyKBoxer said:


> elder999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> fat people see more hatred based on the size
> ugly people see more hatred based on their looks
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am a frequent target of bigotry! :rofl:
Click to expand...


----------



## yorkshirelad

elder999 said:


> yorkshirelad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but we're talking about here in the USA....where _most_ of the Irish are "white," including the "black Irish." :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first time I heard that term was here in California funnily enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, though-*we're talking about here in the USA*, where I've been told that I "_talk nice, without all that jive_" *and* been told that I "_talk like you want to be white._ Where I've been arrested just for being black in Palm Beach.(Don't believe me? When I asked for the charge, the cop said _How about I charge you with being a ****** on the sidewalk on a sunny day?_) Where people-sometimes people I've been just introduced to and sometimes complete strangers from just across the room-will come up to me and politely ask "_What ethnicity are you_?" or, less politely (and comically) _*"What* are you_?" or, "_What kind of Indian are you_?" or "_Are you Samoan or something_?" Where I've been told by black barbers that I have "nice _white_ hair," and told by white barbers that they can't cut my hair.
> 
> Where, in just 2007, I was called "******" for the umpteenth time, though the first time in New Mexico, after nearly 14 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ye, that sucks! it's embarassing just reading it. I can't imagine what it was like for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where my son has been called _zebra,_ or _porch monkey_ and heard his mother defamed simply for having me for his father.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It has to be infuriating knowing your kids are going through this. If it was me, my blood would be boiling.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## David43515

My wife and 2 step daughters are Japanese. But the girls took my last name when we married, and it can be frustrating when they meet someone who gives them a double-take and then a very thurough once over when they hear a foreign name. The younger one got so tired of it that when she entered college she used my name on all her official paperwork, but had her dad`s name put on all her nametags.And they all three hate that abusive SOB.

"What are you?" seems to be a daily thing for them. It`s followed with the assumption that the whole family, including the dog, is perfectly bilingual and that my wife can cook any and all American dishes.


----------



## elder999

David43515 said:


> My wife and 2 step daughters are Japanese. But the girls took my last name when we married, and it can be frustrating when they meet someone who gives them a double-take and then a very thurough once over when they hear a foreign name. The younger one got so tired of it that when she entered college she used my name on all her official paperwork, but had her dad`s name put on all her nametags.And they all three hate that abusive SOB.
> 
> "What are you?" seems to be a daily thing for them. It`s followed with the assumption that the whole family, including the dog, is perfectly bilingual and that my wife can cook any and all American dishes.


 

I've been all over the world, and lived in Japan for 14 months-it's easily the most racist place I've ever been, though it was often completely innocent/ignorant/oblivious, and rarely with any malice...


----------



## David43515

elder999 said:


> I've been all over the world, and lived in Japan for 14 months-it's easily the most racist place I've ever been, though it was often completely innocent/ignorant/oblivious, and rarely with any malice...


 
You just described it to a tea. Every week I`ll hear someone say something completely off the wall and I just have to shake my head and laugh becaause there`s never any hatred or malice...... just overwhelming ignorance of the world around them. I like to think that part of my job is to help them sort through all that.


----------



## elder999

David43515 said:


> You just described it to a tea. Every week I`ll hear someone say something completely off the wall and I just have to shake my head and laugh becaause there`s never any hatred or malice...... just overwhelming ignorance of the world around them. I like to think that part of my job is to help them sort through all that.


 

Yeah, I had two old duffers in the bath incredulous because I didn't have a tail-apparently, some British guy in post-war occupation had told them that "blacks" had tails....:lfao:


----------



## Carol

Yikes Elder! I heard some bizarre things about redheads when I was in Sendai...nothing quite like having a tail though :lol:


----------



## CanuckMA

Growing up in the middle of a Catholic neighbourhood, I've been asked to show my horns.


----------



## elder999

CanuckMA said:


> Growing up in the middle of a Catholic neighbourhood, I've been asked to show my horns.


 
Blame it on the Vulgate Bible, and Michaelangelo.



> "... when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. (Exodus 34:29 KJV)
> 
> And it came to pass when Moses descended from Mount Sinai, and the two tablets of the testimony were in Moses' hand when he descended from the mountain and Moses did not know that the skin of his face had become radiant while He had spoken with him  (Exodus/Shemot 34:29 Judaica Press Complete Tanach)




 
In Hebrew, the word for radiant is heban&#1512;&#1463;&#1503;, an expression meaning horns (&#1511;&#1463;&#1512;&#1456;&#1504;&#1463;&#1497;&#1460;&#1501;). According to Rashi  (1040-1105CE), the Jewish preeminent biblical commentator, this word was used because "_light radiates and protrudes like a type of horn._
The Septuagint or Greek version of the Hebrew bible (3rd-1st century BCE) translates this phrase as "_his face was glorified_." Conversely, Saint Jerome's  Latin Vulgate translation (5th century CE)  _was cornuta esset facies sua_ "*his face was horned."*

And here's Moses, as depicted by Michaelangelo  for Pope Julius II's tomb, in the Church of St. Peter:


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## CanuckMA

Blame it on the lack of vowels in Hebrew. The root for radiant (kuf-resh-nun) is the same as horn.


----------



## elder999

CanuckMA said:


> Blame it on the lack of vowels in Hebrew. The root for radiant (kuf-resh-nun) is the same as horn.


 

Well, yeah...it's the _Jehovah_ thing all over again....


----------



## Twin Fist

Jeff, I try to tell people about how racist the orient is, and how America is about the least racist country going.....it shocks them every time

i heard the tail thing too when i was stationed there


----------



## CoryKS

elder999 said:


> Well, yeah...it's the _*Jehovah*_ thing all over again....


 

*throws stone*


----------



## David43515

Twin Fist said:


> Jeff, I try to tell people about how racist the orient is, and how America is about the least racist country going.....it shocks them every time
> 
> i heard the tail thing too when i was stationed there


 
I think that`s because we`re changing (however slowly it may be) and racism in the US is much less common than it was in the past and much less tolerated. So when we see it it stands out alot. We learn to be aware of it.

I can`t speak for the rest of Asia but here in Japan the whole culture is about fitting in and being the same as everyone else. Believe me, I see it preached on TV and in the schools all day long. The word _chigau_ means both "different" and "wrong". A strong way to tell someone you disaprove of what they`re doing is to say it`s _hen_ "strange" but also"unusual". They tend to be racially and culturally the same, so they never learn to deal with anyone different so they`re very cumbsy about it.....and often completely unaware of how racist they seem when they say something compeltly off the wall.


----------



## Twin Fist

like the word for "foriegner" also meaning "barbarian"

and the japanese are not the worst, the koreans hate the japanese, the japanese hate the chinese, the chinese look down thier noses at EVERYONE< and they ALL hate the philipinos....


----------



## Bruno@MT

Twin Fist said:


> like the word for "foriegner" also meaning "barbarian"
> 
> and the japanese are not the worst, the koreans hate the japanese, the japanese hate the chinese, the chinese look down thier noses at EVERYONE< and they ALL hate the philipinos....



Yeah but otoh the kanji for woman is also used as a radical for the kanji for 'slave'.
So sometimes it makes sense...


 


<runs for his life>


----------



## David43515

Bruno@MT said:


> Yeah but otoh the kanji for woman is also used as a radical for the kanji for 'slave'.
> So sometimes it makes sense...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <runs for his life>


 
One of my old bosses taught me characters this way:

Take the charater for _tree_ (ki) and write three of them together in the same space. Then it becomes _forest _(mori). Take the charater for _woman_ (onna) and write three of them togeter in the same space and it becomes _noisy or troublesome_ (yakamashii). :ladysman:


----------



## granfire

David43515 said:


> One of my old bosses taught me characters this way:
> 
> Take the charater for _tree_ (ki) and write three of them together in the same space. Then it becomes _forest _(mori).* Take the charater for woman (onna) and write three of them togeter in the same space and it becomes noisy or troublesome (yakamashii).* :ladysman:




ROFLMAO!!!

(and then they tells some poor Moslem guy that it's paradise with a bunch of virgins....)


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Big Don said:


> Two examples, both misidentified as proud of being white...
> St Patrick's day is "IRISH pride", not white
> Likewise, "Italian pride" is focused not on race, but, national origin. That is exactly it, and the co-opting of the term has been lovingly embraced by the media.


 
I know I'm coming late with this, but...

The difference is fairly clear.  If you tell me what "nation" in Africa that my family came from, then I will celebrate it, rather then a celebration of being Black.  But if you can't do that, then I will claim "Black pride" because I KNOW I can at least trace my family back to the slavery period in the U.S., and every thing subsequent to that I can claim as sharing a cultural familiarity.

You see, slavery destroyed the culture of the individual slave, if only by nature of the fact that the 1st generation slave could not necessarily teach that culture to his children.  Therefore they became "Black" culturally, and all that entails, rather then African.  

But the "Irish" or "Italian" has no such handicap.  There is no need for them to claim "white pride" as a generic culture, becuase they can trace it back to a specific European heritage.  Blacks can't.

But also understand this, as well.  "Black" people do not include non-slave Africans in that mix, generally speaking.  They are African.  It reminds me of my buddy's sister-in-law, who is Eritrian.  She could not understand, having immigrated legally to the U.S., how she was not accepted as "Black" by so-called African-Americans.  Her comment was, "but we are the same".  I had to tell her, as had others, that historically and culturally speaking, we were not the same.  She did not have the history of slavery and American racism that Black in America share.  Although we _may _share some common ancestry, it is somewhat irrelevant when you talk about the destruction of the slaves original cultural understanding and heritage.


----------



## yorkshirelad

5-0 Kenpo said:


> But also understand this, as well. "Black" people do not include non-slave Africans in that mix, generally speaking. They are African. It reminds me of my buddy's sister-in-law, who is Eritrian. She could not understand, having immigrated legally to the U.S., how she was not accepted as "Black" by so-called African-Americans. Her comment was, "but we are the same". I had to tell her, as had others, that historically and culturally speaking, we were not the same..


If I were her, I would have said "Then you are not African as far as I'm concerned. You're not African-Americans, you are simply Americans." How anyone can not consider native Africans as black is beyond me. It's silly!!


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

5-0 Kenpo said:


> I know I'm coming late with this, but...
> 
> The difference is fairly clear. If you tell me what "nation" in Africa that my family came from, then I will celebrate it, rather then a celebration of being Black. But if you can't do that, then I will claim "Black pride" because I KNOW I can at least trace my family back to the slavery period in the U.S., and every thing subsequent to that I can claim as sharing a cultural familiarity.
> 
> You see, slavery destroyed the culture of the individual slave, if only by nature of the fact that the 1st generation slave could not necessarily teach that culture to his children. Therefore they became "Black" culturally, and all that entails, rather then African.
> 
> But the "Irish" or "Italian" has no such handicap. There is no need for them to claim "white pride" as a generic culture, becuase they can trace it back to a specific European heritage. Blacks can't.
> 
> But also understand this, as well. "Black" people do not include non-slave Africans in that mix, generally speaking. They are African. It reminds me of my buddy's sister-in-law, who is Eritrian. She could not understand, having immigrated legally to the U.S., how she was not accepted as "Black" by so-called African-Americans. Her comment was, "but we are the same". I had to tell her, as had others, that historically and culturally speaking, we were not the same. She did not have the history of slavery and American racism that Black in America share. Although we _may _share some common ancestry, it is somewhat irrelevant when you talk about the destruction of the slaves original cultural understanding and heritage.


 
I find this very interesting, I have never heard anyone ever explain it this way before.
you actually made me sit back and think for a minute. I am not sure where I stand on this at the moment, but I wanted to say thanks for sharing a take on this that I had not heard before and on first glance anyways makes a ton of sense.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

yorkshirelad said:


> If I were her, I would have said "Then you are not African as far as I'm concerned. You're not African-Americans, you are simply Americans."


 
And I would have replied, "You're right, that's why I don't claim to be African-American, but Black.  Or mostly, just American."

Which leads me to your next statement.



> How anyone can not consider native Africans as black is beyond me. It's silly!!


 
What you are failing to understand is that what you are saying is true if you are looking at the issue of skin color only.  In that context, I could just as easily say that a Chinese person is "white" due to the color of their skin.  

What you need to know if you want to understand the dynamic of this situation is that "Black", in the U.S., means "Black American".  It is a cultural issue, not merely one of skin color.  You could make a correlation between a person saying that they are "Italian-American" (several generations removed) vs. Italian.  

What's more, even most "Black Africans" (as opposed to Africans of European descent) do not look upon a Black Americans as the same as them either.  Why?  Because of a distinctly different culture and heritage branching off some 400 years ago.  At some point we become more then the mere color of our skin and become the sum total of that plus our history and culture.

If not, then we are all Africans...


----------



## yorkshirelad

5-0 Kenpo said:


> And I would have replied, "You're right, that's why I don't claim to be African-American, but Black.* Or mostly, just American*."


Yep!!


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

yorkshirelad said:


> Yep!!


 
But that doesn't mean that I'm so naive as to believe that the past hasn't had an effect upon the present, including our perseptions of race relations.

Hence, why I included the second part of my post.


----------



## yorkshirelad

5-0 Kenpo said:


> If not, then we are all Africans...


I wouldn't disagree with this sentiment either. Not only do I agrwee with this in a biological sense but in a religious snse also. If the majority consider the US to be a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values, then it has to be accepted that Abraham was Ethiopean and Moses was Egyptian. 

I would much rather have the designation pink-American or Multi couloured-American based on my actual skin tone, but that's just me.  :rofl:


----------



## CanuckMA

yorkshirelad said:


> I wouldn't disagree with this sentiment either. Not only do I agrwee with this in a biological sense but in a religious snse also. If the majority consider the US to be a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values, then it has to be accepted that Abraham was Ethiopean and Moses was Egyptian.
> 
> I would much rather have the designation pink-American or Multi couloured-American based on my actual skin tone, but that's just me. :rofl:


 

Abraham was from Ur, which is in present day Iraq, Moses was a Hebrew born in Egypt.


----------



## yorkshirelad

CanuckMA said:


> Abraham was from Ur, which is in present day Iraq, Moses was a Hebrew born in Egypt.


I stand corrected!!


----------



## ATACX GYM

David43515 said:


> Well I guess we`ll have to agree to disagree. From what you`re saying the definition seems so broad that pretty much anything short of the weather could be institutional racism if it could inconvenience some member of a minority population. But I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. You`ve given me something to think about.
> 
> I guess the problem is so big I can`t see it. I`ll just have to continue to rely on being nice to people until they give me a reason not to.


 

The DEFINITION is NOT broad,it's SPECIFIC.In essence? The way in which EVERY major institution in the U.S.A. is formulated and operates from its literal inception,it has permanent class,gender,and race discrimination.It was passed into The Articles of Confederation and The Constitution by the elite men who were elitists,chauvinists,and racists almost to a man when they crafted it.Furthermore,such attitudes that they held were common and not considered at all offensive at the time; so enshrining these values into the bedrock of the operation of the United States is not at all a shock.

The DEFINITION is SPECIFIC.The CONSEQUENCES are VAST and DEEP.So the weather isn't the issue.Yes,the problem IS big but you can see it if you know what to look for.And I'm glad that you rely on being nice to people until given reason to be otherwise.I do that too; but I'm alert while I'm being kind.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> wow, gee, lets just get all the evil white folks to kill themselves......


 

Better idea...why don't we educate the "evil" out of folks whatever their race,and if THAT fails? THEN we off them.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> [/list]
> horse crap.
> 
> schools are funded through property taxes, taxes are based off of property VALUES.
> 
> why do you suppose the property value of houses in high minority areas is in the toilet?
> 
> could it be the rampant crime that seems to go with minorities every time?
> 
> how is it fair to take money from areas with higher property values to give to the lower value areas?
> 
> it isnt
> 
> minority areas want better schools? stop turning the nieghborhoods into war zones between dealers and guess what? the schools get more money through taxes.


 

^^^This is the rhetoric of racism and ignorance.Pure and simple.I'm not accusing YOU of being a racist,but THIS ARGUMENT IS DEFINITELY RACIST AND IGNORANT.Allow me to educate you man...

It's TRUE that schools are funded via property taxes,but this is merely a mechanism to ensure micro control of fund dispersement.The property values of minority communities are NOT controlled by us,and IT'S AMAZINGLY RACIST OF YOU to assume that ALL or even HALF of non-White (in this case,you probably mean Black) communities are dens of public crime and warzones.

Newsflash: less than 1/10 of 1% of Black kids are hardcore gangmembers.So where did you get the idea that we live in war zones? And since 99.9% of Black kids AREN'T ganxtas,why are our communities disproportionately dissed with lower tax values? 
Who put all those liquor stores in our communities?

Answer: Institutional racism victimizes us no matter what our income level or civic virtues are.The Census and other governemental reports from the 90s up to the early 2000's clearly indicate that organized,society wide,consistent institutional racism from every quarter (including banks and media) contribute to the depression of Black businesses in our own community,the encouragement of Asian businesses being founded in our communities much more than White communities,the deliberate overpopulation of liquor and liquor stores in our communites,the poor food selection,AND EVERY OTHER FACET OF COMMUNITY LIFE FROM THE POLICE TO STREET MAINTENANCE AND YES THE SCHOOLS are deliberately manipulated in such a way as to ensure unfair disadvantages and more severe obstacles for (especially) Black people,and that includes Latinos too IN EVERY regard.Our land values are AUTOMATICALLY lower than our White contemporaries BECAUSE OF RACISM NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.This practice is acknowledged by the findings of the federal government itself.


Newsflash: Black people don't control or even have a SINGLE armory or weapon dispensary so how are automatic weapons making their way to the Black community? 
Answer: White criminals from the government to the street are selling them to us.


Regarding criminal activity? Let us freely acknowledge that there are criminal elements in EVERY race,and criminal actions will happen period because it's a part of the human condition.But consider: we might have kids who break into your cars.You have criminals who steal trillions from THE ENTIRE NATION and CAUSES THE NATIONAL ECONOMY TO COLLAPSE which then SENDS THE WORLD INTO A RECESSION THAT HINGES ON A MIGHTY DEPRESSION.Who should be censured with the lesser land values,then,based upon criminal activity? Not us. And the true irony is...A BLACK MAN (OBAMA) LIFTED US AND IS STILL LIFTING US FROM THIS DESPICABLE MORASS THAT HUNDREDS OF RICH CULTURED WHITE MEN COLLUDED TO CREATE.Obama is doing the work that White Presidents refused to do by and large (and in fact the Presidents from Reagan to Obama--excepting Clinton for the most part--started sanctioned and perpetuated these horrific atrocities throughout their Presidencies ) a work so mighty that it would make ATLAS himself blanch and instead of being showered with praise? He's vilified by far right wingnuts.

We are RIGHT AS I'M WRITING THIS POST LIVING THE REALITY of EXACTLY the kind of collusion from all levels of government and private industry which you deny happens. Yet you can accept it in the financial world and barely condemn it but somehow or other think these same insatiable amoral imperialist gangsters who'd think it's great to rip off most of the world wouldn't stick it to Black people to perpetuate their lofty positions.You actually DENY SUCH A THING EXISTS.I'm very familiar with this mindset by now (having seen this kind of militant denial by White folks and especially by Right wingers all my life),and I know its root is literal ignorance.As in,you literally have no idea what you're talking about because you're literally unaware; no matter how intelligent you may or may not be,you're UNAWARE.In fact? You've been MISEDUCATED into defending behaviour which is reprehensible and indefensible because you're not aware that such behaviour exists.Like I said earlier...it's all connected.Institutional racism,sexism,governmental ineptitude,private sector avarice,elitism,and more: they all come from the same font.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Ras... I need to see some sort of documented proof of the numbers you are claiming, the claims you are making to look at it myself.
Because to be completely honest with you, you sound like a conspiracy nutcase here.
I can appreciate all the martial arts comments you make, some I agree with and some I dont, and I think it would be fun to get together with you and play with ideas back and forth... your  a thinker, and I appreciate that..
but the political and racism topics just make me shake my head, they seem over the top. 
I have little interest in actually going in and researching it without someone else doing the footwork, because to be quite honest, it doesnt effect me directly. I would love to have more direct information that I could easily point to when having this conversation in the future though.
I hate to be that guy that says....."Video, or it didn't happen"
but what you are saying is so far from anything I have learned, or observed and seems a bit on the outrageous side of possibilities.
thanks.


----------



## ATACX GYM

5-0 Kenpo said:


> That is based on an individuals actions. You have to show how this particular behavior is institutionalized. I work in law enforcement. I have to say that I have seen no institutional policies that allow for the unlawful treatment of Blacks or other minorities. In fact, I have seen quite the opposite in my time.


 
Since the passage of laws that struck down the de jure aspects--meaning the publically upheld by law aspects--of racism and racial segregation,none of these actions are actually "legal".However,you're not the only one who's worked in law enforcement: both my brother and my cousin have worked for the LAPD and the LASD in elite divisions and the separation is clear cut.Furthermore,you need look no further than Census Bureau data to see that this behaviour is a nationwide epidemic,not the actions of just a few bitter souls.And these actions span centuries,not just specific moments or days.Are most police officers racist? No,not imho.Is law enforcement riddled with the same kind of institutionalized racism that hamstrings the rest of the country? As an institution primary to the operation of the U.S.A.? Absolutely and without doubt.Again...look no further than governmental reports charting nationwide behaviours like the Census Bureau.This is NOT individuals at work,this is the PROOF OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM AT WORK.



5-0 Kenpo said:


> Held at that level by whom, and in what way. You're good with accusations, but very thin on support.
> 
> Held by whom. Even if the majority of people viewed things in this way, once again it is an example of personal prejudice, not institutional racism.


 
Read government reports like the Census Bureau.You don't know me so you don't know that I don't open my mouth and make direct blunt statements without having the data on-hand to back it up.Every syllable I have uttered is verifiable by the most objective methods.





5-0 Kenpo said:


> Uh, what?.


 
I was referring to the general ignoring of,or co-opting of African history.For instance,the original ancient Pharoahs are all Black,the people and populace of ancient Kemet are a Black achievement,and in fact the Pharoahnic Dynasties are merely the traditional cultural methods of ancient Black Africa applied on a national level.And yet...most of the depictions that we have of all of these are of anyone BUT Black people.That's about as accurate as saying that King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table,and Renaissance Europe were ALL BLACK achievements.Sure there were SOME Black people,but NOWHERE NEAR 100% Black.Furthermore,the long held assumptions about Black civilizations only achieving worthy achievements when "influenced" by White civilizations is another spurious lie exploded by many many documents.



5-0 Kenpo said:


> I think most Blacks in the U.S. know that their from the U.S., and could easily name the U.S., Canada, and Mexico as three countries on the continent from which they hail. And most can speak English, although some rather badly. And they know at least the rudiments of the U.S. electoral process.
> 
> Oh. Or are you talking about the fact that I should know something about a continent (Africa) to which I've never been and have only a slight interest in visiting.


 

Your position,mine and everybody else's position in the USA would undoubtedly be affected toward a more knowledgeable and positive perception about Africa and her people were Africa not so maligned for so many centuries.It may not affect your decision to VISIT,but it would certainly affect your basic operational knowledge of and appreciation of her.For instance,we all know something off top about England,France and Spain and in general there is a benign disposition towards those countries in the U.S.A. That knowledge impacts us whether we choose to visit these countries or not.It even allows us to,for instance,have an audience for and better enjoy THE LORD OF THE RINGS,HARRY POTTER,007,Sherlock Holmes,Hercule Poirot,Cyrano de Begerac,Romeo and Juliette,etc. as characters books and movies.Many of us choose to learn to speak French and Spanish in public schools (or are mandated to learn one of these languages,depending upon which schools we enter and their charter),whether or not we plan on visiting these countries.This is the kind of thing that I'm talking about that would--were it also applied to Africa--have a dramatic impact upon our perception of the continent,at the minimum.We'd be able to recognize,say,Ashanti when we hear it in the same sense that we can recognize French or Spanish and to a much lesser degree Japanese Chinese and Korean when we hear it.We'd have some (accurate,positive) idea of the culture of the person speaking that language.



5-0 Kenpo said:


> I see examples of very high acheiving Blacks all the time. And not just in sports. Of course, God forbid, you may have to decide to look at something other then the TV to do so.


 
You must not have read my quote very well,despite the fact that it's just above your quote (the one I'm responding to now) in your original post.I didn't say that there AREN'T high achieving Blacks; what I said is that there are MORE INSTANCES OF MEDIA COVERAGE ASSOCIATING NEGATIVITY WITH BLACK (and also Latino,gotta say that) FACES.Very much different than inferring that there are no high achieving Blacks or there aren't frequent high achieving Blacks who aren't in sports.I think Obama would qualify as high achieving Blacks who aren't in sports per se (lol Pres.Obama DOES get his b-ball on though).Sijo Muhammad would qualify.Reginald F. Lewis (R.I.P.) would qualify.Maya Angelou would qualify.You get the point,I hope.Dr.Chancellor Williams (r.i.p.) Dr.Cornel West,would qualify.You get the point.



5-0 Kenpo said:


> Really? And where did they originate?


 
Did you just SERIOUSLY ask me where the cocaine and drug problems originate or are you kidding with me?




5-0 Kenpo said:


> Let's break it down: this is not the greatest deficit in human history (see Germany circa WWII, U.S. during the Great Depression). What "extraordinary feats" has Obama done? He hasn't done anything more extraordinary then any other President. He still hasn't been demonized by the Black public, except in the fact that he hasn't been willing to push harder for his agenda. And some of what you are claiming people talked about in "hushed circles" happened with, oh, every opposition group against a President' agenda.


 
I think the facts will prove that your breakdown is actually broken down.I'm fully aware of Germany's requirements to payback the Allies at the Treaty of Versailles after WWI.That amount would break down to about 780 billion USD 2011. As of 2009,the U.S. deficit was 1.4 trillion USD http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aA8lChe4zUQU And President Obama's handling of this scenario,and the incredible accomplishments of President Obama are nothing short of historic:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#39959392

And uh...there's a difference between wingnut opposition groups Left and Right and RECORD LEVELS of reactionary nutcase action,gun and ammo runs,stupidities like Birthers and Deathers,etc.On top of that? When there was previous concerns about Presidents reenacting slavery or reparations or swigning ironfisted blows at our freedoms prior to Obama? The times they were TRUE,they were regarding White Presidents WHO DID DO SUCH A THING or ALLOWED such a thing or similar things and HAD A HISTORY OF DOING SUCH A THING.I'm very,very well informed and would be more than happy to engage you and anybody else on any aspect of history on this matter.I find these discussions to be stimulating and I don't look at them as adversarial exercises.



5-0 Kenpo said:


> It's funny. I'm all of the things that you're mentioning yet see the world nothing like you do.


 
That's a good thing,actually.We Black folks aren't monolithic,and most folks aren't monolothic.However,there are differences borne of personality and personal life experiences and then there are differences borne of knowledge regarding specific facts.I can only be unequivocal about the latter.The factual statements I made are exactly that: factual.You have the choice and the right to accept whether or not you believe them,but their rigorous accuracy is beyond reproach.


----------



## ATACX GYM

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Ras... I need to see some sort of documented proof of the numbers you are claiming, the claims you are making to look at it myself.
> Because to be completely honest with you, you sound like a conspiracy nutcase here.
> I can appreciate all the martial arts comments you make, some I agree with and some I dont, and I think it would be fun to get together with you and play with ideas back and forth... your a thinker, and I appreciate that..
> but the political and racism topics just make me shake my head, they seem over the top.
> I have little interest in actually going in and researching it without someone else doing the footwork, because to be quite honest, it doesnt effect me directly. I would love to have more direct information that I could easily point to when having this conversation in the future though.
> I hate to be that guy that says....."Video, or it didn't happen"
> but what you are saying is so far from anything I have learned, or observed and seems a bit on the outrageous side of possibilities.
> thanks.


 

Okay.Which questions would you like documentation for?


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> ^^^This is the rhetoric of racism and ignorance.Pure and simple.I'm not accusing YOU of being a racist,but THIS ARGUMENT IS DEFINITELY RACIST AND IGNORANT.Allow me to educate you man...
> 
> It's TRUE that schools are funded via property taxes,but this is merely a mechanism to ensure micro control of fund dispersement.The property values of minority communities are NOT controlled by us,and IT'S AMAZINGLY RACIST OF YOU to assume that ALL or even HALF of non-White (in this case,you probably mean Black) communities are dens of public crime and warzones.
> 
> Newsflash: less than 1/10 of 1% of Black kids are hardcore gangmembers.So where did you get the idea that we live in war zones? And since 99.9% of Black kids AREN'T ganxtas,why are our communities disproportionately dissed with lower tax values?
> Who put all those liquor stores in our communities?
> 
> Answer: Institutional racism victimizes us no matter what our income level or civic virtues are.The Census and other governemental reports from the 90s up to the early 2000's clearly indicate that organized,society wide,consistent institutional racism from every quarter (including banks and media) contribute to the depression of Black businesses in our own community,the encouragement of Asian businesses being founded in our communities much more than White communities,the deliberate overpopulation of liquor and liquor stores in our communites,the poor food selection,AND EVERY OTHER FACET OF COMMUNITY LIFE FROM THE POLICE TO STREET MAINTENANCE AND YES THE SCHOOLS are deliberately manipulated in such a way as to ensure unfair disadvantages and more severe obstacles for (especially) Black people,and that includes Latinos too IN EVERY regard.Our land values are AUTOMATICALLY lower than our White contemporaries BECAUSE OF RACISM NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.This practice is acknowledged by the findings of the federal government itself.
> 
> 
> Newsflash: Black people don't control or even have a SINGLE armory or weapon dispensary so how are automatic weapons making their way to the Black community?
> Answer: White criminals from the government to the street are selling them to us.
> 
> 
> Regarding criminal activity? Let us freely acknowledge that there are criminal elements in EVERY race,and criminal actions will happen period because it's a part of the human condition.But consider: we might have kids who break into your cars.You have criminals who steal trillions from THE ENTIRE NATION and CAUSES THE NATIONAL ECONOMY TO COLLAPSE which then SENDS THE WORLD INTO A RECESSION THAT HINGES ON A MIGHTY DEPRESSION.Who should be censured with the lesser land values,then,based upon criminal activity? Not us. And the true irony is...A BLACK MAN (OBAMA) LIFTED US AND IS STILL LIFTING US FROM THIS DESPICABLE MORASS THAT HUNDREDS OF RICH CULTURED WHITE MEN COLLUDED TO CREATE.Obama is doing the work that White Presidents refused to do by and large (and in fact the Presidents from Reagan to Obama--excepting Clinton for the most part--started sanctioned and perpetuated these horrific atrocities throughout their Presidencies ) a work so mighty that it would make ATLAS himself blanch and instead of being showered with praise? He's vilified by far right wingnuts.
> 
> We are RIGHT AS I'M WRITING THIS POST LIVING THE REALITY of EXACTLY the kind of collusion from all levels of government and private industry which you deny happens. Yet you can accept it in the financial world and barely condemn it but somehow or other think these same insatiable amoral imperialist gangsters who'd think it's great to rip off most of the world wouldn't stick it to Black people to perpetuate their lofty positions.You actually DENY SUCH A THING EXISTS.I'm very familiar with this mindset by now (having seen this kind of militant denial by White folks and especially by Right wingers all my life),and I know its root is literal ignorance.As in,you literally have no idea what you're talking about because you're literally unaware; no matter how intelligent you may or may not be,you're UNAWARE.In fact? You've been MISEDUCATED into defending behaviour which is reprehensible and indefensible because you're not aware that such behaviour exists.Like I said earlier...it's all connected.Institutional racism,sexism,governmental ineptitude,private sector avarice,elitism,and more: they all come from the same font.


This right wing bigotted, unaware fool is too busy working right now and having his tax dollars fund Obamessiah's view of a utopic society to give a decent reply. I will reply in detail later, when I have the time.


----------



## ATACX GYM

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Ras... I need to see some sort of documented proof of the numbers you are claiming, the claims you are making to look at it myself.
> Because to be completely honest with you, you sound like a conspiracy nutcase here.
> I can appreciate all the martial arts comments you make, some I agree with and some I dont, and I think it would be fun to get together with you and play with ideas back and forth... your a thinker, and I appreciate that..
> but the political and racism topics just make me shake my head, they seem over the top.
> I have little interest in actually going in and researching it without someone else doing the footwork, because to be quite honest, it doesnt effect me directly. I would love to have more direct information that I could easily point to when having this conversation in the future though.
> I hate to be that guy that says....."Video, or it didn't happen"
> but what you are saying is so far from anything I have learned, or observed and seems a bit on the outrageous side of possibilities.
> thanks.


 

"Although African-Americans account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, an estimated 38.9 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black (as of 2005 DOJ data).[30] Blacks were nearly 5 times more likely than whites, nearly 3 times more likely than Hispanics to have been in jail in 2005.[30] Census data for 2000, which included a count of the number and race of all individuals incarcerated in the United States, revealed a dramatic racial disproportion of the incarcerated population in each state: the proportion of blacks in prison populations exceeded the proportion among state residents in every single state.[31] In twenty states, the percent of blacks incarcerated was at least five times greater than their share of resident population.[31] According to DOJ 2009 data, Black non-Hispanic males, with an incarceration rate of 4,749 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents of the same race and gender, were incarcerated at a rate more than 6 times higher than white non-Hispanic males (708 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents) and 2.6 times higher than Hispanic males (1,822 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents).[32]"

^

Now do you think this happens because Black people are genetically more inclined toward criminal activity than all other races? Oooorrrr do you think that this is the proof of EXACTLY the kind of institutionalized racism permeating law enforcement the courts etc. IN EVERY REGARD AND LEVEL that I already told you exists? If you think that we Black people are genetically inclined toward criminality,then I can emphatically disprove THAT idea AND supply the data (including Census data) that confirms BEYOND A DOUBT that these numbers are due to the racism running rampant in the U.S.A. right now as I'm writing and long after all of us are dead.


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> This right wing bigotted, unaware fool is too busy working right now and having his tax dollars fund Obamessiah's view of a utopic society to give a decent reply. I will reply in detail later, when I have the time.


 

I didn't call you a right wing bigot.Do some yoga bruh and chill out.I'm working right now too.I look forward to your response.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

ATACX GYM said:


> "Although African-Americans account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, an estimated 38.9 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black (as of 2005 DOJ data).[30] Blacks were nearly 5 times more likely than whites, nearly 3 times more likely than Hispanics to have been in jail in 2005.[30] Census data for 2000, which included a count of the number and race of all individuals incarcerated in the United States, revealed a dramatic racial disproportion of the incarcerated population in each state: the proportion of blacks in prison populations exceeded the proportion among state residents in every single state.[31] In twenty states, the percent of blacks incarcerated was at least five times greater than their share of resident population.[31] According to DOJ 2009 data, Black non-Hispanic males, with an incarceration rate of 4,749 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents of the same race and gender, were incarcerated at a rate more than 6 times higher than white non-Hispanic males (708 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents) and 2.6 times higher than Hispanic males (1,822 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents).[32]"
> 
> ^
> 
> Now do you think this happens because Black people are genetically more inclined toward criminal activity than all other races? Oooorrrr do you think that this is the proof of EXACTLY the kind of institutionalized racism permeating law enforcement the courts etc. IN EVERY REGARD AND LEVEL that I already told you exists? If you think that we Black people are genetically inclined toward criminality,then I can emphatically disprove THAT idea AND supply the data (including Census data) that confirms BEYOND A DOUBT that these numbers are due to the racism running rampant in the U.S.A. right now as I'm writing and long after all of us are dead.


 

Those numbers on thier own prove nothing, and can be made to represent any number of different theories as to why they are what they are.
No I do not think that those numbers are a result of race in any way shape or form.
Show me your thinking in how you come to the conclusion that they are caused by institutional racism.
I would think that instead of race that its more about economic status.
I would like to see a few statistics.
first I would like to see statistics on how many total crimes of each type were made, then how many of each race were charged for each crime, how many crimes were unsolved, how many of each race were found guilty, how many of each race were found innocent, how the breakdown worked for economic status, and then of those convicted I want to see statistics on what the breakdown was for specific sentences in length and type.
With all that information it would be much better and more complete to decide if there is institutional racism going on, or if there is just in fact more of a specific economic status committing crimes or all races, or if in fact more of a specific race is commiting crime, and then you could tell if a specifc economic group is being convicted more often then another, and if a specific race is being convicted more often then any other.... and by that I mean as a percentage of those charged.

if 1 million white people are charged with murder and 1000 are found guity
and if 1 million Black people are charged with murder and 9000 are found guilty then I would say there might be a problem for sure there...
now say out of those 1 million white people charged that 10% are in the lowest economic bracket, and all 1000 that were found guilty belong to that bracket.
now say that out of those 1 million black people charged that 90% were in the lowest economic bracket... well then I might start thinking that the economic bracket had more to do with it then race. especially since at that point both figures would come out the same.

I am sure the breakdown would be much more complicated then the very simple example I gave, and but I tend to believe that the breakdown would be much more along economic ties then racial ties.

so whats the answer to eliminate it?

thats the question and the man who answers that will go down as one of the greatest men in history..../shrug


----------



## ATACX GYM

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Those numbers on thier own prove nothing, and can be made to represent any number of different theories as to why they are what they are.
> No I do not think that those numbers are a result of race in any way shape or form.
> Show me your thinking in how you come to the conclusion that they are caused by institutional racism.
> I would think that instead of race that its more about economic status.
> I would like to see a few statistics.
> first I would like to see statistics on how many total crimes of each type were made, then how many of each race were charged for each crime, how many crimes were unsolved, how many of each race were found guilty, how many of each race were found innocent, how the breakdown worked for economic status, and then of those convicted I want to see statistics on what the breakdown was for specific sentences in length and type.
> With all that information it would be much better and more complete to decide if there is institutional racism going on, or if there is just in fact more of a specific economic status committing crimes or all races, or if in fact more of a specific race is commiting crime, and then you could tell if a specifc economic group is being convicted more often then another, and if a specific race is being convicted more often then any other.... and by that I mean as a percentage of those charged.
> 
> if 1 million white people are charged with murder and 1000 are found guity
> and if 1 million Black people are charged with murder and 9000 are found guilty then I would say there might be a problem for sure there...
> now say out of those 1 million white people charged that 10% are in the lowest economic bracket, and all 1000 that were found guilty belong to that bracket.
> now say that out of those 1 million black people charged that 90% were in the lowest economic bracket... well then I might start thinking that the economic bracket had more to do with it then race. especially since at that point both figures would come out the same.
> 
> I am sure the breakdown would be much more complicated then the very simple example I gave, and but I tend to believe that the breakdown would be much more along economic ties then racial ties.
> 
> so whats the answer to eliminate it?
> 
> thats the question and the man who answers that will go down as one of the greatest men in history..../shrug


 

Okay no prob I will provide you the links that answer that question.And there were groups who answered this question,not a single person.As you know.Thanks for the questions! Back later this evening or something.


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Do some yoga bruh and chill out..


Are you telling me to stick my head up my ****? :rofl:


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> are you telling me to stick my head up my ****? :rofl:


 

hahaha


----------



## ATACX GYM

Institutionalized Racism in Health Care,including direct quotes from the U.S. COMMISSION ON CIVIL RIGHTS...also quotes from the University of Florida Journal of Law:

http://academic.udayton.edu/health/07humanrights/racial01c.htm

Wikipedia,Institutional racism,reaching everything from property value and how this slanted behaviour ensures disproportionate purposeful undefunding of "minority" schools:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Institutional racism in police forces, job force/employment,banking,housing,and other crucial institutions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

http://dictionary.sensagent.com/institutional+racism/en-en/


Los Angeles police racism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Commission


Seattle:http://video.foxnews.com/v/4562457/...l-justice-policy-continues/?playlist_id=86856


Census Bureau reports widening income gap disparity between rich and poor:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/28/income-gap-widens-census-_n_741386.html

widening income disparity between Black and White:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States

Which of course means that race and gender have a direct impact on the opportunities one receives to move up in and/or maintain their position in economic class.

These links will go into depth and detail resolving most of the matters that you brought up.Yes the questions you asked were much less "complicated" than the matter of institutionalized racism.These links ought to get you going.If there are any other questions? Lemme know,I can steer you toward other sources.


----------



## Twin Fist

Ras,
Here is a quick hint for ya.

If yo see racism everywhere? it is because it is inside YOU.


----------



## Twin Fist

ATACX GYM said:


> Now do you think this happens because Black people are genetically more inclined toward criminal activity than all other races? Oooorrrr do you think that this is the proof of EXACTLY the kind of institutionalized racism permeating law enforcement the courts etc.




i'll take option 3

blacks do more crime than other races because they tend to be poor, and poor people do crimes.

you are posting some OUT THERE stuff, dude. seriously.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> i'll take option 3
> 
> blacks do more crime than other races because they tend to be poor, and poor people do crimes.
> 
> you are posting some OUT THERE stuff, dude. seriously.


 
That is...quite amazing that you don't see how a) ignorant--as in you literally have no idea what you're talking about and the mess spewing from your keyboard onto this thread is devoid of even the most infinitesimal particle of truth or logic--and b) racist your conclusions are.Black people DON'T commit more crimes than other people poor or not.Black people are ACCUSED CHARGED AND CONVICTED MORE whether we're poor or not becaaauuuse we're Black and the institutions are RACIST.The data supplied BY THE INSTITUTIONS THEMSELVES PROVE THIS.

You're posting stuff that's not just "out there",your stuff is BEYOND "THERE". And let me make it clear that I'm not calling YOU ignorant or racist; Idk you.But your post I quoted above? Yeeep.It'd do Rush Limbaugh proud in the "blight of your ignorance and nonsensical racist illogic demeaning millions of non-White people" vein.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> Ras,
> Here is a quick hint for ya.
> 
> If yo see racism everywhere? it is because it is inside YOU.


 

Here's a hint for ya: if government agencies with million and millions of pieces of data who study these things minutely over decades point out that their operations are unfair and definitely discriminate on the basis of race gender and class because the country was founded that way and these government agencies KNOW that the country's major institutions continue to operate that way because the internal paperwork and external evidence of said institutions show that they're not only engaged in racist,sexist,nationalist and classist behaviour but they're CONSCIOUSLY doing it? It means that I don't see racism everywhere; I see racism where racism exists AND in the places that ACKNOWLEDGE THEY'RE BEING RACIST.

You,on the other hand,are blithely sailing by with "EYES WIDE SHUT"as the saying goes,plus you're hearing no evil but speaking subconsciously the evil of abysmal,militant ignorance. And that's why we aren't connecting.I'm allergic to abysmal,militant ignorance.I sicc my hyperpotent T cells on 'em to ensure that I am NEVER infected with the abysmal,militant ignorance which garlanded your last two posts,and I stay sharp and "SUCKA FREE" like SUCKA FREE SUNDAY as a result.I keep my eyes ears mind wide open and appropriately outfitted to deal with dooficity in its many forms.

You oughtta try it out.It'll prevent you from running into that same brick wall all the time.
And again...just in case my meaning was missed...I'm NOT calling YOU ignorant,racist,etc.Your posts,however,are dripping with these things and they may be (hopefully they are) entirely accidental.Which means that your posts are literally ignorant in the sense that you don't know any better.


----------



## Twin Fist

done with you, i dont waste my time arguing with people who's minds are closed to reality. Good Day


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Here's a hint for ya: if government agencies with million and millions of pieces of data who study these things minutely over decades point out that their operations are unfair and definitely discriminate on the basis of *race gender and class* because the country was founded that way and these government agencies KNOW that the country's major institutions continue to operate that way because the internal paperwork and external evidence of said institutions show that they're not only engaged in racist,sexist,nationalist and classist behaviour but they're CONSCIOUSLY doing it? It means that I don't see racism everywhere; I see racism where racism exists AND in the places that ACKNOWLEDGE THEY'RE BEING RACIST.
> 
> .


Yes, you're quite correct; Barack Obama, Charlie Rangel, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Jesse Jackson jr, Michael Steele really don't exist, because the system of the US would never let black people have any real political power.

Oh and; Michael Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, in fact the 98% of the players of the NBL couldn't possibly exist either, because the system of the US would never allow black people any success in sports. In fact maybe the NBL is racist because of the dispropportionate number of blacks to whites. Maybe we should impose affirmative action on the NBL to allow for short white men.

Now you come to mention it, maybe; Russell simmons, Jay-Z, Curtis Jackson (met him three weeks ago, nice guy), Kanye West, Beyonce and Dr. Dre don't exist either, because the system of the US would never allow black people to be cultural moguls.

You're living in a dream state mate. Stay in school and keep adding to your degree, because living in the real world just might be too much for you.


----------



## Twin Fist

not to mention the most powerfull person in the world, without whom Obama would still be an intellectually stunted junior senator best known for voting "present"

Oprah


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> done with you, i dont waste my time arguing with people who's minds are closed to reality. Good Day


 

Done with you.I don't waste my time arguing with people whose minds...wait.When you GET a mind? I'll point out that I'm done with people whose minds are so entrapped by militant ignorance that they repudiate the evidence drawn from the paperwork of the very institutions in question that they are indeed racist.Follow the links,Sherlock.Outro.


----------



## Ken Morgan

yorkshirelad said:


> Yes, you're quite correct; Barack Obama, Charlie Rangel, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Jesse Jackson jr, Michael Steele really don't exist, because...


 
Colin Powell was the best President you guys never had. Had he wanted the job, he would have been one of the greats IMO.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> not to mention the most powerfull person in the world, without whom Obama would still be an intellectually stunted junior senator best known for voting "present"
> 
> Oprah


 
Not to mention the formerly most powerful person in the world who asked the President of Brazil if there were Black people in his country and whose mother opined that the Black people in severe severe distress post-Katrina were "underpriviledged anyway,so this is working very well for them" (because we poor Black folks are USED to not having indoor plumbing and we're perfectly cool with leaving our homes because they were shoddy anyway and what's a few thousand deaths of our loved ones and the callous disregard of our government for us when we are in dire need and we're used to the racist ineptitude of a government that would never treat monied White folks so dismally;but s'allgood to underpriviledged folks)  http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/barbara2.asp...George Dubya and Racism Momma Bush...are STILL intellectually stunted.And what proof do you have of Obama being intellectually stunted? I'd like to see some.

I can give you all kinds of links to the various Bush-isms that Dubya makes.I can find all manner of stupidities untruths and abominably anal comments that the Rush Limbaughs and Glen Becks of the world spew.Let's see if you can find ONE link or whatever that ACTUALLY SHOWS President Obama speaking and/or taking actions indicating his intellectual underdevelopment.At ANY time.Waiting.No? Because there isn't any and never will be? 

Remember that comment I made about you needing to GET a mind? Put a ASAP and "stat" behind that.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Ken Morgan said:


> Colin Powell was the best President you guys never had. Had he wanted the job, he would have been one of the greats IMO.


 

Until the Republican and far right machine would turn on him and scare gullible White racists by stating something like:"Colin Power traces his lineage back to the West Indies like Louis Farrakhan does then he's actually a secret member of the Nation of Islam waiting to put White folks to death! He is a boy.He has golf with women.His primary job in life is leisure.He's nuking doctors.He has no time for Afghanistan. 



He is...a...RACIST! 



".


----------



## Ken Morgan

ATACX GYM said:


> Until the Republican and far right machine would turn on him and scare gullible White racists by stating something like:"Colin Power traces his lineage back to the West Indies like Louis Farrakhan does then he's actually a secret member of the Nation of Islam waiting to put White folks to death! He is a boy.He has golf with women.His primary job in life is leisure.He's nuking doctors.He has no time for Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> 
> He is...a...RACIST!
> 
> 
> 
> ".


 
Wow.

Where the **** did that come from??

Dude, I simply made a comment about his potential to have been a great leader of your country, thats all.  

Easy.


----------



## elder999

ATACX GYM said:


> we're used to the racist ineptitude of a government that would never treat monied White folks so dismally;but s'allgood to underpriviledged folks) http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/barbara2.asp...George Dubya and Racism Momma Bush.


 

I went to the snopes.com link you posted.....thanks, that was hilarious:



> I can't find the page you're looking for.
> It was probably a page about something really interesting,
> but the URL you entered doesn't point to anything on this site.
> Might I recommend you try the search engine at http://www.snopes.com/search to help you locate the item you want?
> You really should try it.
> I have lots of great stories *to tell you about vanishing hitchhikers*
> *and bloody hooks*
> *and exploding whales*
> *and glurge*
> *and gun-toting grannies*
> *and hairy-armed hitchhikers*
> *and murdered roommates*.


 
Awesome! :lfao:


----------



## Twin Fist

Listen up Slick
I am gonna give you some free advice, and this is comming from someone that has recieved more ban hammers around here than you can count on 2 hands.

chill the hell out

your over the top "racist boogey men are everywhere trying to oppress me" crap is getting out of hand, and your personal attacks are not gonna get you on the moderators christmas list.

trust me, I know of what I speak on this subject.

chill out or you are gonna end up getting the hammer.

take it for what it is worth, or not, i dont really care.


----------



## Twin Fist

BTW- All 57 states?

corpse-men

giving the queen an IPOD filled with his speeches?

Obama is an idiot without the teleprompter to back him up and with it he aint so great either.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Ken Morgan said:


> Wow.
> 
> Where the **** did that come from??
> 
> Dude, I simply made a comment about his potential to have been a great leader of your country, that&#8217;s all.
> 
> Easy.


 

Ken...you misunderstood where I was coming from.I actually agreed with you,but I then pointed out that there was going to be a major negative backlash from the Right that had zero to do with reality and I gave some of their more typical heinous reactions to President Obama.So yeah man I actually aagree with you.



Twin Fist said:


> Listen up Slick
> I am gonna give you some free advice, and this is comming from someone that has recieved more ban hammers around here than you can count on 2 hands.
> 
> chill the hell out
> 
> your over the top "racist boogey men are everywhere trying to oppress me" crap is getting out of hand, and your personal attacks are not gonna get you on the moderators christmas list.
> 
> trust me, I know of what I speak on this subject.
> 
> chill out or you are gonna end up getting the hammer.
> 
> take it for what it is worth, or not, i dont really care.


 
My responses are rarely even near the top,much less over it.Most of the time my responses are below the tone and venom of the poster that I'm responding to.My position never was there are "racist boogey men are everywhere trying to oppress me" and I specified that.Numerous times.My position is that the major institutions of this country are indeed permanently ingrained with racism,sexism,classism,nationalism,and that the documented evidence by these very own institutions point out these facts.Census Bureau data and several other major governmental agencies confirm this across the board,systematic,deliberate racism in the major institutions of this country.Basically,they're saying:"We're guilty,mea culpa." So there isn't any speculation done on my part,this is acknowledgement of their "mea culpa".Which you still refuse to accept,and that says all there is to say about you in this area and this regard.Somehow,I think that if some Black Panthers posted in-depth reports that showed them discriminating on the basis of age race gender national origin etc. across the nation consistently with horrific impact upon the White community,you'd be up in arms.Just a intuition I have.And if I or anyone else Black or not said that you were merely "seeing bogeymen",you might be a tad bit miffed at such an untrue,unfair accusation.And if I or anyone else Black or not then stated clearly that if you saw racism everywhere that it was inside of YOU? You might decide to mentally excoriate such a person,as this may have been the indicator that your previously even tone simply wasn't enough to pierce the armor of ignorance that you now see that some of your more consistent detractors have garbed themselves with.As for "personal attacks"? I seem to recall evidence in your posts and the posts of others of you guys flaming me first.I seem to recall some denigration of my mindset in your posts,combined with your mistaken idea of my position.I merely responded in kind...after being goaded.Repeatedly.

99% of my posts are even handed and reasonable.You and others flamed me,and I responded with firepower and facts and links.If my RESPONSES were personal? Then the posts of you and others who came at me first were personal.You brought heat,I brought fire...with links and facts behind it.

Thanks for the advice,though.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> BTW- All 57 states?
> 
> corpse-men
> 
> giving the queen an IPOD filled with his speeches?
> 
> Obama is an idiot without the teleprompter to back him up and with it he aint so great either.


 

You respond with 2 incidents and a third comment which is an opinion.I can link you RIGHT NOW to HUNDREDS of Bushisms and Limbaugh,Beck and other over the top stupidities.Do you really REALLY wanna go there? Because you still have zero to go on in any kind of comparison and contrast of Obama--who is a trillion times smarter than your guys combined--and anybody that you care to name.

And oh yeah...to directly answer the question that this thread poses:"Is Obama black?" (should be Black btw). Obama once quipped:"I think it's important to remember that I was Black before the election." So Obama is Black. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-5327972-503544.html


----------



## Twin Fist

obama is an idiot if for no other reason than that he supports policies that DO NOT WORK


(BTW, everyone makes gaffs, says something wrong, etc. So i dont really hold that against him or use it as ammo for my "he is a moron" stance, unlike YOU do with past presidents.......... the difference is that this clown was hailed as the second comming, and he aint. Where is all that hope and change?)

back on topic, i dont know if he is black, but i do know he is a friggin idiot


----------



## jks9199

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Please avoid personal attacks.  Debate the issue, not the poster.* *

If you cannot comply with the rules and policies here, it is strongly suggested that you make use of the "ignore" feature.* *

jks9199* *
Super Moderator*


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

ATACX GYM said:


> Institutionalized Racism in Health Care,including direct quotes from the U.S. COMMISSION ON CIVIL RIGHTS...also quotes from the University of Florida Journal of Law:
> 
> http://academic.udayton.edu/health/07humanrights/racial01c.htm
> 
> Wikipedia,Institutional racism,reaching everything from property value and how this slanted behaviour ensures disproportionate purposeful undefunding of "minority" schools:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism
> 
> Institutional racism in police forces, job force/employment,banking,housing,and other crucial institutions:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
> 
> http://dictionary.sensagent.com/institutional+racism/en-en/
> 
> 
> Los Angeles police racism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Commission
> 
> 
> Seattle:http://video.foxnews.com/v/4562457/...l-justice-policy-continues/?playlist_id=86856
> 
> 
> Census Bureau reports widening income gap disparity between rich and poor:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/28/income-gap-widens-census-_n_741386.html
> 
> widening income disparity between Black and White:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States
> 
> Which of course means that race and gender have a direct impact on the opportunities one receives to move up in and/or maintain their position in economic class.
> 
> These links will go into depth and detail resolving most of the matters that you brought up.Yes the questions you asked were much less "complicated" than the matter of institutionalized racism.These links ought to get you going.If there are any other questions? Lemme know,I can steer you toward other sources.


 
Ok I spent time looking at every single link you provided, thanks for providing them.
I will share my interpretations after looking at them, reading them, and thinking about them.

the first link about health care issues... the one thing that I kept thinking was that I bet this is an economic issue...
I bet that if you looked at the economic status of the area involved, and then compared that with similar economic areas for whites, or any race that it would be the same story.
Once again there is not enough information there in my opinion to say that its a race issue, and not an economic issue.. It could be, but there is not enough information from anything I saw there..

the second link about underfunding for minority schools... the wikipedia article.... I can see your argument here... I dont agree. I think its simply based on property values and taxes.. once again an economic thing... but I can see the point about property values possibly being manipulated... I cant discount that, but I do not see anything that leads me to believe it is happening that way either.

the third link seemed to me to be a policy that specifically was put in place to make sure there was not racial institutionalization happening..
the fourth link popped all kinds of warnings on my screen so I 86ed it.

the fifth link about the lapd mentioned nothing at all about race, other then the first sentance about rodney king. The comments were universal covering all races.

the sixth link about seattle actually pisses me off.
the fact that a prosecuter is not prosecuting driving with a suspended license cases because he thinks its racist is BS. If someone is driving on a suspended license then they should be prosecuted period. Also the fact that requiring a college degree for a job might be considered racial discrimination is also crap. It seems to me that it will actually provide more qualified and stable people period for that position, and position that needs that type of person. Thats goin got also effect all races. 

the seventh link about the disparity betwewen rich and poor once again is simply economic status, nothing to do with race or institutional racism.

the eighth link once again does not give enough information.
it lists different races, and different levels of education but it does not list the type of degrees... all degrees are not equal. I see some absolutely ridiculous degrees out there that once earned have literally no opportunity to use the degree and education tomake money... other degrees once earned provide almost unlimited potential to earn vast amounts of money.
so I would need to see a breakdown of the types of degrees and out of those people in each type how long they have been working after earning the degree.
if it shows that out of everyone who earned a the same type of degree, broken down by race, at 6 months after they earned that degree, 1 year after, 5 years after, 10 years after, etc.etc. then that will give the information necessary to make a realistic decision on whether there is any racial institutionalization going on.


over all the links you provided I see alot of assumptions being made. Not enough data accumulated to make the conclusions you are making. It does not mean what you are saying can not be true... it still can, but there is not enough data to prove it. so you have a theory, an unproven theory, but a theory. I have a theory as well.. mine is that this is all based on economic status and not race. that poor whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, etc all are suffering from the condition of poverty, and that the same groups who have a higher economic status are not experiencing this instituionalized racism you are claiming.


----------



## Twin Fist

i have a theory too

if a person blames racism for everything and sees it everywhere, it is more likely that it is inside them coloring thier view, than actually in the world


----------



## Ken Morgan

Twin Fist said:


> i have a theory too
> 
> if a person blames racism for everything and sees it everywhere, it is more likely that it is inside them coloring thier view, than actually in the world


 
Yep, whats the common denominator?


----------



## yorkshirelad

Twin Fist said:


> BTW- All 57 states?
> 
> corpse-men
> 
> giving the queen an IPOD filled with his speeches?
> 
> Obama is an idiot without the teleprompter to back him up and with it he aint so great either.


 
Not to mention putting his arm around the Queen Elizabeth like she was his drinking buddy, while he bowed and kowtowd to the king of Saudi Arabia.


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Ken...you misunderstood where I was coming from.I actually agreed with you,but I then pointed out that there was going to be a major negative backlash from the Right that had zero to do with reality and I gave some of their more typical heinous reactions to President Obama.So yeah man I actually aagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> My responses are rarely even near the top,much less over it.Most of the time my responses are below the tone and venom of the poster that I'm responding to.My position never was there are "racist boogey men are everywhere trying to oppress me" and I specified that.Numerous times.My position is that the major institutions of this country are indeed permanently ingrained with racism,sexism,classism,nationalism,and that the documented evidence by these very own institutions point out these facts.Census Bureau data and several other major governmental agencies confirm this across the board,systematic,deliberate racism in the major institutions of this country.Basically,they're saying:"We're guilty,mea culpa." So there isn't any speculation done on my part,this is acknowledgement of their "mea culpa".Which you still refuse to accept,and that says all there is to say about you in this area and this regard.Somehow,I think that if some Black Panthers posted in-depth reports that showed them discriminating on the basis of age race gender national origin etc. across the nation consistently with horrific impact upon the White community,you'd be up in arms.Just a intuition I have.And if I or anyone else Black or not said that you were merely "seeing bogeymen",you might be a tad bit miffed at such an untrue,unfair accusation.And if I or anyone else Black or not then stated clearly that if you saw racism everywhere that it was inside of YOU? You might decide to mentally excoriate such a person,as this may have been the indicator that your previously even tone simply wasn't enough to pierce the armor of ignorance that you now see that some of your more consistent detractors have garbed themselves with.As for "personal attacks"? I seem to recall evidence in your posts and the posts of others of you guys flaming me first.I seem to recall some denigration of my mindset in your posts,combined with your mistaken idea of my position.I merely responded in kind...after being goaded.Repeatedly.
> 
> 99% of my posts are even handed and reasonable.You and others flamed me,and I responded with firepower and facts and links.If my RESPONSES were personal? Then the posts of you and others who came at me first were personal.You brought heat,I brought fire...with links and facts behind it.
> 
> Thanks for the advice,though.


 
I hear Liberia are offering citizenships to poor oppressed African-Americans. You should seriously consider going there, if your life in the US is really that bad.


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> I hear Liberia are offering citizenships to poor oppressed African-Americans. You should seriously consider going there, if your life in the US is really that bad.


 

Heard that Ireland is slanging citizenships for lads too.Maybe you might go there.As for me? I'm not exactly a shrinking violet; my ancestors,my parents,and others of all races genders and walks of life have fought and are fighting for the realization of the American Dream for ALL Americans.Maybe you think so little of the concerns or struggles and inequities of others that you can blithely ignorantly and (fail at) glibly recommend that they give up the struggle,and in so doing dishonor the trials travails blood and work of all those who preceded them.Kowtow.Surrender.

Me? I'm made of sterner and more realistic stuff.I don't give up once the engagement is begun.And I don't conflate disliking racism and seeing the mandate to stamp out unfair treatment of any and every kind with disliking America.They're not the same.In fact? Silly me,I think that showing the individual and collective grit gumption iron decency fortitude and sense of justice that leads to stamping out unfair treatment IS THE EPITOME OF BEING AMERICAN.Didn't the Colonists booth the English for that affront first and foremost amongst their litany of grievances? My struggel and the struggles of those akin to me has the deepest roots in one of the major foundations on which this country was built.I dream of and seek an America that actually HAS lived up to its promise.Maybe you don't.

I hear that Liberia is slinging out citizenship for people who cut and run instead of stand and fight,too.Have at it,yorkshirelad,Twin Fist,and anybody else who agrees with them.Me? I'm gonna fight for freedom for all like Crispus Attucks did...and if needed? I'll die like he did too.For the beliefs that are enshrined in every human heart and which can make this country great. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crispus_Attucks


----------



## Twin Fist

ever been in the military?


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> ever been in the military?


 

Nope.Quite a few of my fam are/have been,and I almost followed suit.Instead I got into martial arts and I'm pursuing my Ph.d.


----------



## Twin Fist

pity


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> pity


 

Why is that?


----------



## Twin Fist

because while i understand that not everyone is cut out for military life, i really do believe that EVERYONE could benefit from 4 years serving their country. People tend to learn what they needed to learn. Me, I learned that i didnt HAVE to party all the time to have fun. Other friends of mine learned what character and loyalty meant

Here is another example.

you have no clue what REAL racism is Ras

Try living in the orient sometime

and you would come back kissing american soil and THANKFULL if all that happened to you was store security followed you.

Many Japanese LITERALLY think that black people have tails. MOST Japanese think that koreans are functionally retarded. The Chinese? they think anyone NOT chinese is less. Sometimes, like in the case of the phillipino's that they are less than human. No, seriously, many, and i mean MANY chinese treat the phillipino and vietnemese like they are some strange human/monkey hybrid

You want racism? forget lynchings 100 years ago, try some ethnic cleansing in Africa, black africans killing other black africans cuz they are from a different TRIBE...literally MILLIONS killed

You serve your country awhile and you would be less inclined to bad mouth it based on nothing, and just be thankfull you are here. Because warts and all, and America does have some wart admittedly, we are still the best thing going.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

ATACX GYM said:


> Since the passage of laws that struck down the de jure aspects--meaning the publically upheld by law aspects--of racism and racial segregation,none of these actions are actually "legal".However,you're not the only one who's worked in law enforcement: both my brother and my cousin have worked for the LAPD and the LASD in elite divisions and the separation is clear cut.Furthermore,you need look no further than Census Bureau data to see that this behaviour is a nationwide epidemic,not the actions of just a few bitter souls.And these actions span centuries,not just specific moments or days.Are most police officers racist? No,not imho.Is law enforcement riddled with the same kind of institutionalized racism that hamstrings the rest of the country? As an institution primary to the operation of the U.S.A.? Absolutely and without doubt.Again...look no further than governmental reports charting nationwide behaviours like the Census Bureau.This is NOT individuals at work,this is the PROOF OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM AT WORK.


 
And yet, neither you nor those articles can point to one specific practice that is an example of institutional racism.  What you do, as I see in many people who advocate a position similar to yours, is in the absence of tangible proof otherwise, you immediately turn to a racist cause.  

As an example of the racism that you seem to be refering to, I know for a fact (at least in that I believe what my wife, a deputy sheriff told me) that in LA County custody facilities segregate themselves based on race.  But that is an individual, not an institutional issue.  

I have trained with LASD, SEB, SWT on numerous occassions.  They have many Black people amongst them.  Again, however, even if there wasn't a single one, though many may have passed the basic requirements, that still does not show that there is a rule, policy, or proceedure which makes it institutional as opposed to individual.  I can tell you one that they have, however.  They turn down all first time applicants.  I can tell you that, not even working for them, but I can't point you to one racist one.



> Read government reports like the Census Bureau.You don't know me so you don't know that I don't open my mouth and make direct blunt statements without having the data on-hand to back it up.Every syllable I have uttered is verifiable by the most objective methods.


 
And, at your suggestion, I have looked for the Census Bureau's reports on racism.  I found statements in their reports attributed to researchers not working for them, but nothing from the Census Bureau itself.

If you have something to show where the Bureau says it for itself, then please, point me to your source. 




> I was referring to the general ignoring of,or co-opting of African history.For instance,the original ancient Pharoahs are all Black,the people and populace of ancient Kemet are a Black achievement,and in fact the Pharoahnic Dynasties are merely the traditional cultural methods of ancient Black Africa applied on a national level.And yet...most of the depictions that we have of all of these are of anyone BUT Black people.That's about as accurate as saying that King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table,and Renaissance Europe were ALL BLACK achievements.Sure there were SOME Black people,but NOWHERE NEAR 100% Black.Furthermore,the long held assumptions about Black civilizations only achieving worthy achievements when "influenced" by White civilizations is another spurious lie exploded by many many documents.


 
I don't buy this one.  There are a few reasons.  First, Egypt, although a part of the Continent of Africa, shares hardly any cultural attributes with the countries south of it, to include the countries where the African slave is from.  I hardly think that depicting people from Egypt will somehow enlighten the Blacks in America.  Not only that, though you call them Black, the Egyptian skin tone is akin to those of the Middle East, hence the association with the Middle East.  



> Your position,mine and everybody else's position in the USA would undoubtedly be affected toward a more knowledgeable and positive perception about Africa and her people were Africa not so maligned for so many centuries.


 
I guess.  Although I could certainly see your point when it comes to Black history, I don't see it with African history.  Unless one could trace one roots back to a specific georgraphical area within the vast continent that is Africa, I don't see it as being all that beneficial.  For instance, the difference between the culture of Egypt, the Maasai Tribe, and Etheopians are so vast that it does not give the individual Black American insight into their own past.


You must not have read my quote very well,despite the fact that it's just above your quote (the one I'm responding to now) in your original post.I didn't say that there AREN'T high achieving Blacks; what I said is that there are MORE INSTANCES OF MEDIA COVERAGE ASSOCIATING NEGATIVITY WITH BLACK (and also Latino,gotta say that) FACES.Very much different than inferring that there are no high achieving Blacks or there aren't frequent high achieving Blacks who aren't in sports.I think Obama would qualify as high achieving Blacks who aren't in sports per se (lol Pres.Obama DOES get his b-ball on though).Sijo Muhammad would qualify.Reginald F. Lewis (R.I.P.) would qualify.Maya Angelou would qualify.You get the point,I hope.Dr.Chancellor Williams (r.i.p.) Dr.Cornel West,would qualify.You get the point.
 [/quote]

I got your point perfectly fine.  My point is that there are high numbers of places to see a positive portrayal of Blacks in media.  There are all of the things that you point out, and more.  We can quibble over the "amount" of coverage seen, and to some extent, I will agree with you.  But it also depends on the medium to which you are referring.

I will also point out that we do it to ourselves, also.  Take, for instance, Oprah.  She has the star and money power to make any movie that she wants, and she produces "Precious".  



> Did you just SERIOUSLY ask me where the cocaine and drug problems originate or are you kidding with me?


 
I did. 



> I think the facts will prove that your breakdown is actually broken down.I'm fully aware of Germany's requirements to payback the Allies at the Treaty of Versailles after WWI.That amount would break down to about 780 billion USD 2011. As of 2009,the U.S. deficit was 1.4 trillion USD http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aA8lChe4zUQU And President Obama's handling of this scenario,and the incredible accomplishments of President Obama are nothing short of historic:
> 
> Until the U.S. Dollar becomes 1 trillionth of what it is now, there is no comparison between the economy of Germany after WWI and the U.S. economy now.  I don't see people burning their money for heat because the cost of heating oil is worth more then the dollar, or it being cheaper to wallpaper your house with the dollar as opposed to buying actual wallpaper.  So no, his handling of it is not historic, especially considering that he *is doing what Bush did *(TARP II)*.*
> 
> Not only that, but besides economics, he pushed for the PATRIOT Act renewal, refuses to close down Guantanamo Bay, is pushing for military tribunal for prisoners there, and so on.  He is, with few exceptions, some of them major, a Bush clone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And uh...there's a difference between wingnut opposition groups Left and Right and RECORD LEVELS of reactionary nutcase action,gun and ammo runs,stupidities like Birthers and Deathers,etc.On top of that? When there was previous concerns about Presidents reenacting slavery or reparations or swigning ironfisted blows at our freedoms prior to Obama? The times they were TRUE,they were regarding White Presidents WHO DID DO SUCH A THING or ALLOWED such a thing or similar things and HAD A HISTORY OF DOING SUCH A THING.I'm very,very well informed and would be more than happy to engage you and anybody else on any aspect of history on this matter.I find these discussions to be stimulating and I don't look at them as adversarial exercises.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not at all sure what you are refering to here, perhaps due to typos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good thing,actually.We Black folks aren't monolithic,and most folks aren't monolothic.However,there are differences borne of personality and personal life experiences and then there are differences borne of knowledge regarding specific facts.I can only be unequivocal about the latter.The factual statements I made are exactly that: factual.You have the choice and the right to accept whether or not you believe them,but their rigorous accuracy is beyond reproach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your "factual" statments are interpretations of data which can have alternate conclusions, as well as regurgitations of what others (researchers) have said.  Not necessarily all bad, but still can be subject to flaws.
Click to expand...


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

> Now do you think this happens because Black people are genetically more inclined toward criminal activity than all other races? Oooorrrr do you think that this is the proof of EXACTLY the kind of institutionalized racism permeating law enforcement the courts etc. IN EVERY REGARD AND LEVEL that I already told you exists? If you think that we Black people are genetically inclined toward criminality,then I can emphatically disprove THAT idea AND supply the data (including Census data) that confirms BEYOND A DOUBT that these numbers are due to the racism running rampant in the U.S.A. right now as I'm writing and long after all of us are dead.


 
And yet for all of that, there is not mention that Asians, a minority in the U.S., continues to commit crime *below* their population rate.  Outside of prison population, Asians (as a group) obtain more loans then whites, have higher property ownership rates then whites, etc.  They get fewer traffic stops then Whites.

You see, this conclusions always get screwed up once you include those darned Asians into the mix.

So it must only be Blacks and Hispanics that the White man discriminate against.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

ATACX GYM said:


> Institutionalized Racism in Health Care,including direct quotes from the U.S. COMMISSION ON CIVIL RIGHTS...also quotes from the University of Florida Journal of Law:
> 
> http://academic.udayton.edu/health/07humanrights/racial01c.htm


 
First, there are not quotes.  She footnotes statements written by her in a report by the Commission.  Second, the way that she footnotes, you can't even look up the report.

I'll also tell you my personal bias.  If there were no "civil rights violations" then there would be no need for the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.  In other words, people there need there to be "violations" so that they can keep their jobs.



> Wikipedia,Institutional racism,reaching everything from property value and how this slanted behaviour ensures disproportionate purposeful undefunding of "minority" schools:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism


 
Sorry, but when four of the seven citation sections state something along the lines of "citation needed", I can hardly look to your source as an authority on the subject.



> Institutional racism in police forces, job force/employment,banking,housing,and other crucial institutions:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act


 
No one is arguing that institutional racism _did _occur.  But what you are arguing is that the very nature of these institutions necessitate it regardless of the people populating it, racist or not.  That you have failed to prove.

http://dictionary.sensagent.com/institutional+racism/en-en/




> Los Angeles police racism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Commission


 
Your source says nothing about racism or discrimination.  Other problems, to be sure, but nothing about race. 



> Seattle:http://video.foxnews.com/v/4562457/...l-justice-policy-continues/?playlist_id=86856


 
Can't play the video on the computer that I am using, so I will have to reserve judgement on this one. 



> Census Bureau reports widening income gap disparity between rich and poor:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/28/income-gap-widens-census-_n_741386.html


 
First, no link to the actual report, so no way to verify.  Second, the article itself says nothing about race.  Third, this the Huffington Post, not exactly an un-biased source.



> widening income disparity between Black and White:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States
> 
> Which of course means that race and gender have a direct impact on the opportunities one receives to move up in and/or maintain their position in economic class.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States 

First, your souce says nothing about a *widening *income gap between Black and White, though it does note a gap.  Second, it does nothing to account for that gap.  Your assumption is that it is racism, but that has not been proven by *facts *placed before us as evidence. 

Second, although you refer to the difference between Black and White in this source, your overall point is about institutional racism.  Your source also shows that Asians actually make *more* on average then Whites.



> These links will go into depth and detail resolving most of the matters that you brought up.Yes the questions you asked were much less "complicated" than the matter of institutionalized racism.These links ought to get you going.If there are any other questions? Lemme know,I can steer you toward other sources.


 
I still say that you have yet to give one source that actually lives up to your claim.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Twin Fist said:


> because while i understand that not everyone is cut out for military life, i really do believe that EVERYONE could benefit from 4 years serving their country. People tend to learn what they needed to learn. Me, I learned that i didnt HAVE to party all the time to have fun. Other friends of mine learned what character and loyalty meant
> 
> Here is another example.
> 
> you have no clue what REAL racism is Ras
> 
> Try living in the orient sometime
> 
> and you would come back kissing american soil and THANKFULL if all that happened to you was store security followed you.
> 
> Many Japanese LITERALLY think that black people have tails. MOST Japanese think that koreans are functionally retarded. The Chinese? they think anyone NOT chinese is less. Sometimes, like in the case of the phillipino's that they are less than human. No, seriously, many, and i mean MANY chinese treat the phillipino and vietnemese like they are some strange human/monkey hybrid
> 
> You want racism? forget lynchings 100 years ago, try some ethnic cleansing in Africa, black africans killing other black africans cuz they are from a different TRIBE...literally MILLIONS killed
> 
> You serve your country awhile and you would be less inclined to bad mouth it based on nothing, and just be thankfull you are here. Because warts and all, and America does have some wart admittedly, we are still the best thing going.


 
So because it's worse somewhere else, we should be thankful for the amount that we have here. 

As my father used to tell me, "N***a please. (I'm being intentionally facetious with the comment. And it is intented to be a pun. Please don't comment to me about the TOS.)

This is really a ridiculous argument. I don't care about the racism in "the orient" because I don't live in "the orient". And I shouldn't have to put up with racism where I live just because it's worse elsewhere. 

Quite frankly, though I don't agree with many of his conclusions, yours are just a ludicrous in this regard. If you would actually refute his positions with information and facts rather then say, "Well, its worse elsewhere," I might could take you seriously.


----------



## Twin Fist

Here is the thing, and get this, i DO NOT CARE if you take me seriously. Your opinion of me means less than nothing to me.That doesnt change what I am saying and that is  

"all the things you complain about are either not real or not that bad"

you want BAD racism? you need to go live in "the motherland" 

America isnt bad. Sure we have problems, but NOT the problems he claims, nor are the problem we have as bad as he claims, and compared to REAL racism, our problems are barely worth mentioning.

Thats debatable of course, and differences of opinion are fine, but there is no comparison between not being able to get a cab in New York City and ethnic cleansing in Darfur.

One is a real problem, the other is just annoying.

It is about perspective. I do not think it is ludicrous to be thankful for the good things we have here that others are not so lucky to have. It's like my mom used to say when i didnt like what she made for dinner "there are plenty of kids that dont have ANYTHING for dinner or a mom to fix it, so try being gratefull for once"

Or do you disagree with that too?

and NO, not saying we cant improve our lot in life here, of course we need to, but that IS happening, no rational honest person can deny it.

And I have not insulted you, so please stop with the personal attacks.


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## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Heard that Ireland is slanging citizenships for lads too.Maybe you might go there.


 
I already have. I lived in Ireland from my late teens until my late 20s. I was born in England, but my parents are Irish. I *earned* my US citizenship in August of last year due to service as an Infantryman. When my Irish and British passports expire, they will not be renewed. I am a proud US citizen and have wanted US citizenship for as long as I can remember.


ATACX GYM said:


> As for me? I'm not exactly a shrinking violet


You actually seem like a shrinking violet. You have a victim mentality. It seems that to you, white people are to blame for all your ills.


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## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> because while i understand that not everyone is cut out for military life, i really do believe that EVERYONE could benefit from 4 years serving their country. People tend to learn what they needed to learn. Me, I learned that i didnt HAVE to party all the time to have fun. Other friends of mine learned what character and loyalty meant
> 
> Here is another example.
> 
> you have no clue what REAL racism is Ras
> 
> Try living in the orient sometime
> 
> and you would come back kissing american soil and THANKFULL if all that happened to you was store security followed you.
> 
> Many Japanese LITERALLY think that black people have tails. MOST Japanese think that koreans are functionally retarded. The Chinese? they think anyone NOT chinese is less. Sometimes, like in the case of the phillipino's that they are less than human. No, seriously, many, and i mean MANY chinese treat the phillipino and vietnemese like they are some strange human/monkey hybrid
> 
> You want racism? forget lynchings 100 years ago, try some ethnic cleansing in Africa, black africans killing other black africans cuz they are from a different TRIBE...literally MILLIONS killed
> 
> You serve your country awhile and you would be less inclined to bad mouth it based on nothing, and just be thankfull you are here. Because warts and all, and America does have some wart admittedly, we are still the best thing going.


 
This is actually a purrty decent post.

I have family from Okinawa.My father was stationed there.My cousins are half-Black.I know that some old skool Japanese heads will literally stare out Black people.But for the last 30 years the hiphop cultural revolution has dramatically reduced the virulence of Japanese racism.

I have family from all over Africa.Going to the hot zones again because I have (relatively few) family in the Sudan and Darfur too.Heard about the ethnic cleansing.My position based upon the combination of what my family in Africa and my grandmother told me (my grandmother is the daughter of sharecroppers)? Hatred is stupid and horrible period.However,racially charged hatred is more virulently applicable because it's much easier to identify one's intended victim if their badge is their skin,therefore the horrors that horrible minds invent are more easily consistently and virulently applied to those intended victims that they can easily spot.Quite a few European Jews escaped the horror of Nazi Germany or at least delayed those horrors by changing their names to names of Germanic origin.Black people can't willy nilly get our chameleon on and change our color...and many of us wouldn't,even in the face of certain oppression for being Black.

And lastly I don't badmouth anything or anyone "just because". You conflate badmouthing my entire country with badmouthing racism racists racists practices and racist legacies.Not the same.

But I appreciate your approach.


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## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Black people can't willy nilly get our chameleon on and change our color
> .


 
Two words for you *Michael Jackson.* :rofl:


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## Twin Fist

yorkshirelad said:


> Two words for you *Michael Jackson.* :rofl:



you owe me a new monitor, mine is now covered in Diet Dr Pepper


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## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Hatred is stupid and horrible period.However,racially charged hatred is more virulently applicable because it's much easier to identify one's .


Very true! That's why you should list Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright, and the black panthers as racist hate mongers.


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## 5-0 Kenpo

Twin Fist said:


> Here is the thing, and get this, i DO NOT CARE if you take me seriously. Your opinion of me means less than nothing to me.That doesnt change what I am saying and that is
> 
> "all the things you complain about are either not real or not that bad"
> 
> you want BAD racism? you need to go live in "the motherland"
> 
> America isnt bad. Sure we have problems, but NOT the problems he claims, nor are the problem we have as bad as he claims, and compared to REAL racism, our problems are barely worth mentioning.
> 
> Thats debatable of course, and differences of opinion are fine, but there is no comparison between not being able to get a cab in New York City and ethnic cleansing in Darfur.
> 
> One is a real problem, the other is just annoying.
> 
> It is about perspective. I do not think it is ludicrous to be thankful for the good things we have here that others are not so lucky to have. It's like my mom used to say when i didnt like what she made for dinner "there are plenty of kids that dont have ANYTHING for dinner or a mom to fix it, so try being gratefull for once"
> 
> Or do you disagree with that too?
> 
> and NO, not saying we cant improve our lot in life here, of course we need to, but that IS happening, no rational honest person can deny it.
> 
> And I have not insulted you, so please stop with the personal attacks.


 
You know what, your right.  I suppose that Martin Luther King Jr. really didn't have a complaint.  After all, it was only the occassional lynching, Black church burning, or lack of access to education that occurred.  I mean, it's not like they were in slavery anymore, killed at the whim of their Master.  Things were alot better during his time, so what did he have to complain about.  What's a police K-9 gnawing on your leg compared with getting working as a slave.


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## Twin Fist

that was legitimate AND it was 50 years ago, I refuse to feel bad about something that happened before i was born. And it is a pretty weak shot from someone who's arguments are generally very strong, even when i dont agree with them


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## 5-0 Kenpo

Twin Fist said:


> that was legitimate AND it was 50 years ago, I refuse to feel bad about something that happened before i was born. And it is a pretty weak shot from someone who's arguments are generally very strong, even when i dont agree with them



Actually, the argument is very strong.  Consider that your position, as stated in a logical premise is this:

If racism in time/place "A" is worse than in time/place "B", then those in "B" have no place to complain about racism.

I then substituted "A" for slavery in the U.S., and "B" for the 1960's U.S.  According to your premise, those in the 1960's have no place to complain because it was worse during slavery.  Put "modern day Africa" in place of "A", and "modern day U.S." in place of "B", and we have what you said.  

But now you want to substitute "legitimate" racism, as well as a specific time.  Well, that completely changes your argument.  But let's deal with it.  

What is legitimate racism?  Would legitimate racism be a Black man murdered solely because he was black?  Well, we have that in the U.S.  Would legitimate racism be to be denied a cab ride in NY solely on the basis of skin color?  Would being denied a job solely because of skin color be legitimate racism?  Obviously, I would say yes.  What say you?

And, these things happen today, just as they did 50 years ago.  Should we not be allowed to air our grievances regarding them?  Or should we just be quiet, because after all, it's not as bad as in Africa?   

Second, the issue of the time, in terms of your original position, is irrelevant to your base premise.  The reason for this is because I could argue that people in Africa in the 1960's had it much worse than Blacks in America.  Therefore, adding time to your argument, the people in 1960's had no right to complain because, yet again, it was worse then in Africa.

Let me give you some perspective to your argument to a subject which you have more passion for:  "You should not complain about the rate of your taxes because people in many European countries are taxed at a higher rate." Or, "You should not complain about the rate of government spending in your country, because the rate of such spending is higher in many European countries."  See how that works out?

Now, no one is asking you to "feel bad" about modern day racism.  However, for those of us affected by it, we would ask you to understand our position.  It's all well and good to say, it's better then before, or than in other places, but what does that do for the person actually being injured by said racism, especially when such actions are murder, rape, lack of access to a job (many of the things that occurred in King's era as well, don't forget).

In terms of your mother telling you to appreciate what you have when it comes to food, no one is saying that Blacks shouldn't appreciate what we have.  However, that does not mean that we can't do better.  Did your mother expect you to simply stay with the scraps that you were eating for the rest of your life, or did she want you to have more and better?  I suspect the latter.  Therefore, what is wrong with Blacks wanting all racism to end, and enlightening people to the fact that it still occurs?  And we shouldn't have to minimize our concerns simply because it is worse elsewhere.

Here's the other thing, at least from my perspective.  Just because I think that racism still occurs and shouldn't be ignored does not mean that there should be some new law or regulation to combat it.  The great lesson of people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi was less about changing the law, and more about changing people's hearts.  If  you changed people's hearts the would change the law, which was a by-product of what was in their hearts.  

Another thing is that, again from my perspective, just because I state that an action is racism, that does not mean that I believe that every institution or white person has racism inside of it/them.  But some do, and some more then others, and for various reasons.  I should not have to ignore it simply because it is, theoretically, mostly okay.


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## yorkshirelad

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Another thing is that, again from my perspective, just because I state that an action is racism, that does not mean that I believe that every institution or *white person* has racism inside of it/them. But some do, and some more then others, and for various reasons. I should not have to ignore it simply because it is, theoretically, mostly okay.


I agree with the above statement, all that is except the fact that you concentrate on white people. Take a look at the Nation of Islam, an organization that is quite openly; anti-semetic, anti-white and anti-America, surely you see this organization and its members as racists and bigots. Obama's former pastor, who presided at his wedding and the christening of his daughters is a huge fan of Farrakhan and has in the past praised him and given him an award. He has also made anti-semetic, anti-white and anti-American comments, so you have agree that he too is a racist and a bigot. 

Racism and bigotry is not just the realm of white people, but it seems that some people here believe that to be the case.


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## Twin Fist

funny, i cant recall the dogs being turned loose on people here lately or the fire hoses....or lynchings (not counting the ISOLATED case of James Byrd)....the Klan is a hollow shell of what it was then, even the fbi admitts this.....no, the things MLK rightly protested against are pretty much gone. 

fact of the matter is, a white is how many times more likely to be the victim of a crime BY a black person than a black person is to be a victim of crime by a white.

Thats just a fact.


here

now

thats all i am concerned with because it is all i can change, and sorry, i just dont see it as all that bad.

i think people should, by and large, stfu and make thier own lives better. You are a cop, you KNOW WHY blacks cant get a cab. I ran a fast food joint 6 years ago, and I am can tell you why a black kid might not get a job, but you wont like the answer. You want to change people's hearts? I can tell you how to do that too, but again, you wont like the answer.

I tire of this. You see the world the way you see it, and i dont see it that way AT ALL .Niether of us is right or wrong, since this is all opinion, but i would hope that at the end of the day, or when the **** hits the fan, all of this silly bs wont matter.


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## 5-0 Kenpo

yorkshirelad said:


> I agree with the above statement, all that is except the fact that you concentrate on white people. Take a look at the Nation of Islam, an organization that is quite openly; anti-semetic, anti-white and anti-America, surely you see this organization and its members as racists and bigots. Obama's former pastor, who presided at his wedding and the christening of his daughters is a huge fan of Farrakhan and has in the past praised him and given him an award. He has also made anti-semetic, anti-white and anti-American comments, so you have agree that he too is a racist and a bigot.
> 
> Racism and bigotry is not just the realm of white people, but it seems that some people here believe that to be the case.


 
Certainly.  I just held it to the White racism against Blacks due to the position that TF was arguing.  I do no deny Black racism against Whites, and would argue that position as well.  Being of mixed heritage (White / Black) I have had more direct attacks about being White from Black people then I have had of being Black from White people.


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## 5-0 Kenpo

Twin Fist said:


> funny, i cant recall the dogs being turned loose on people here lately or the fire hoses....or lynchings (not counting the ISOLATED case of James Byrd)....the Klan is a hollow shell of what it was then, even the fbi admitts this.....no, the things MLK rightly protested against are pretty much gone.


 
So you think.



> fact of the matter is, a white is how many times more likely to be the victim of a crime BY a black person than a black person is to be a victim of crime by a white.
> 
> Thats just a fact.


 
This is funny.  You ask a question, and somehow your question is a fact, even though you made no actual statement of fact.



> thats all i am concerned with because it is all i can change, and sorry, i just dont see it as all that bad.


 
Here's the thing...

As of 2008, a statistics report which surveyed all persons arrested for offending, stated that of the crimes surveyed for which the identity of the offender could be determined, 77.2 percent of all persons arrested were white or Hispanic, 20.3 percent of people arrested for offending were black or black and Hispanic; and the remaining 2.4 percent were of other races.


A 2008 FBI Uniform Crime Report on rape and sexual-based crime published by the United States Department of Justice stated that of the crimes surveyed, whites represented 65.2% of persons arrested for rape, blacks represented 32.2%, with American Indians and Asians ranking just above 1%. 

These statistics show that you have from two to three time more chance of being victimized by a White person in a crime then you do a Black person.

So, tire all you want, Whites commit more crime in the United States by sometimes three times as much as Blacks.  Here is another statistic that you won't like:  In 2005, 2.7% of African Americans became the victim of a violent crime, compared to 2.0% of Whites.  So despite your saying that Whites have more reason to be worried about being victimized by Blacks, the fact of the matter is that 93% of the U.S population is never victimized with violent crimes.  So what is it that justifies actually worrying about Blacks committing a crime against you?  Or, consequently, your argument regarding Blacks "embracing a criminal culture?"

So, quite frankly, White people worrying about being victimized by Black people should, in your words, stfu, and go about treating everyone as individuals, and not make baseless assumptions, as you have made about Blacks.  Especially considering that Blacks, typically, don't commit crimes against Whites *because they are White*.



> i think people should, by and large, stfu and make thier own lives better. You are a cop, you KNOW WHY blacks cant get a cab. I ran a fast food joint 6 years ago, and I am can tell you why a black kid might not get a job, but you wont like the answer. You want to change people's hearts? I can tell you how to do that too, but again, you wont like the answer.


 
Yes, Black people may not be able to get a cab because of the assumption that the driver makes about the person based on skin color alone.  And some of these people are the same people who get pissed when, if they are Middle Eastern, of being assumed to be a terrorist.  

How about this, I will just go ahead, since you are White, and assume that you are an ignorant, racist, self-centered person due to the color of your skin (and certainly not because of your actual beliefs about minorities ).  And, I will also assume that, upon seeing me, you will want to hurt me because I am a half-breed mongrel.

And the reason I won't like the answer is because you are, instead of treating people as individuals (and ignoring the fact that most people in America, including most Blacks) don't commit crime, choose to make decisions about people regarding the mere color of their skin.  

How absolutely ignorant.



> I tire of this. You see the world the way you see it, and i dont see it that way AT ALL .Niether of us is right or wrong, since this is all opinion, but i would hope that at the end of the day, or when the **** hits the fan, all of this silly bs wont matter.


 
No, one of you is wrong.  You are stating facts which are easily refutable.  I will just say that your opinion is your opinion, right or wrong.


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## Twin Fist

I am tired of your insults when i have not insulted you at all. What might have been an interesting exchange is now nothing, because of your rudeness and inability to be civil. And that is comming from ME.

Good day.


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## 5-0 Kenpo

....

Never mind


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## Twin Fist

and this will be the LAST thing i ever say to you Slick, all those stats MIGHT mean something, IF the populations were the same size, but they are not

so 13% of the population is comitting ALMOST as many crimes as another 60% of the population is.

you just proved my case for me.

Thanks,

good day


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## 5-0 Kenpo

Twin Fist said:


> and this will be the LAST thing i ever say to you Slick, all those stats MIGHT mean something, IF the populations were the same size, but they are not
> 
> so 13% of the population is comitting ALMOST as many crimes as another 60% of the population is.
> 
> you just proved my case for me.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> good day


 
Actually, my stats said no such thing.  My stats show that 70% of all violent crime is committed by Whites.

And though you (weakly) put me on ignore, the 2007 crime stats show that Whites commited about 46% of all racially motivated crimes in the U.S.  

And yet, you still have more of a chance of being victimized by a White person then you do a Black person. Yet Whites apparently are should be paranoid about being hurt by a Black. 

Interesting analysis...

The fact of the matter is that you have no idea what you are talking about....


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## LuckyKBoxer

5-0 Kenpo said:


> And yet, you still have more of a chance of being victimized by a White person then you do a Black person. Yet Whites apparently are should be paranoid about being hurt by a Black.
> 
> Interesting analysis...


 
where did you come up with this from?
I have never seen stats one way or the other, so I am curious


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## 5-0 Kenpo

LuckyKBoxer said:


> where did you come up with this from?
> I have never seen stats one way or the other, so I am curious


 
Because that stats show that Whites commit 70% of crime in the United States.  Obviously I am not compensating for particular localities, but overall throughout the United States, this would hold true.


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## Twin Fist

some people simply cannot face the truth about thier own group.

back on topic.

I dont know if Obama is black, but i do know he is a vacation taking golf playing spinless ****.


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## 5-0 Kenpo

You know what... never mind again...


----------

