# Does anyone still teach 12 hands of the tiger?



## Gufbal1982 (Nov 23, 2006)

I learned a blocking system from an ex villari guy in NH, and was wondering, does anyone else still teach 12 hands of the tiger?  USSD and Fred Villari's studios don't...


----------



## shaolin ninja 4 (Nov 23, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I learned a blocking system from an ex villari guy in NH, and was wondering, does anyone else still teach 12 hands of the tiger? USSD and Fred Villari's studios don't...


 
Never heard of it? What is it ?


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Nov 24, 2006)

12 hands of the tiger is a blocking system that used to be taught in the shaolin kempo system.  I have it and was just wondering if anyone teaches it anymore.


----------



## almost a ghost (Nov 24, 2006)

I remember being taught the 16 hands for buddha or something like that, can't remember it though, except for some key movements here and there.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4 (Nov 24, 2006)

Was it cool or useless?


----------



## bill007 (Nov 24, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I learned a blocking system from an ex villari guy in NH, and was wondering, does anyone else still teach 12 hands of the tiger? USSD and Fred Villari's studios don't...


 
8 point blocking system, 8 point blocking with natural strikes, 8 point with open hands, 8 point open hands with natural strikes, 10 point blocking system, and plum tree but never heard of a 12 hands of the tiger sorry...


----------



## almost a ghost (Nov 24, 2006)

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Was it cool or useless?



It was cool, but in the context of Shaolin Kempo it was useless since application was never taught and alot of the movements weren't found anywhere else in the system.


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Nov 27, 2006)

bill007 said:


> 8 point blocking system, 8 point blocking with natural strikes, 8 point with open hands, 8 point open hands with natural strikes, 10 point blocking system, and plum tree but never heard of a 12 hands of the tiger sorry...


 
It was taught before.  The guy I learned it from was with Villari's n the 80's.  Villari's doesn't teach all the open hand stuff with the 8 point blocking as something specific.  It's "not in the system" as they put it, however, they do it as a thinking exercise which is kind of cool.


----------



## Danjo (Nov 27, 2006)

The first part of the 10 point blocking system can be found in Mas Oyama's book, which leads me to believe that's where Cerio got it from since we know he took some forms from that book.


----------



## RevIV (Nov 29, 2006)

do you have a vid. of the 12 hands of the tiger?  I used to have what they called the Sun Flower Blocking System and the Iron Fortress Blocking system which were higher up blocking systems. I also know that Prof. Ingargiola does a Dragon Blocking System I believe at 3rd degree.
In Peace
Jesse


----------



## Mariachi Joe (Nov 29, 2006)

Never heard of it.


----------



## sjhannah (Nov 29, 2006)

The 12 hands of the tiger is not useless.


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Nov 29, 2006)

I actually have it written down.  I honestly just wanted to see if anyone else out there has it.


----------



## 14 Kempo (Nov 29, 2006)

Let's see ... 
     8-point (closed, open)
     Iron Fortress (closed, open)
     10-point
     Plum Tree
     Master's Blocking System
... I believe that in the order learned as well. Oh, and I am getting a bit older, I may be forgetting something I learn way back when ... Don't recall hearing of "12 hands of the tiger" ... would like to see it though


----------



## Scherazade (Nov 30, 2006)

I was taught 12 Hands of the Tiger when I reached black belt in Villari Shaolin Kempo Karate. We were taught the practical application of the blocks and then my master explained that this system is used in a form called Wounded Tiger taught later on in the system. He demonstrated how it looked in the form and it looked pretty cool (and brutal).


----------



## marlon (Nov 30, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I actually have it written down. I honestly just wanted to see if anyone else out there has it.


 

could you share it with us?

Repsectfully,
marlon


----------



## shaolin ninja 4 (Nov 30, 2006)

marlon said:


> could you share it with us?
> 
> Repsectfully,
> marlon



I 2nd that.


----------



## Iron Leopard (Dec 23, 2006)

Ok as I have em.

8 point (closed, open and counterstrikes to both sets)
Iron fortress (closed and open)
10 point
plum tree
16 palms of budha (why can't I ever spell buhda? lol)
Masters blocking system

I've heard of others and have bits and pieces to others and many techniques with first blocks that aren't in any of these blocking systems.( maybe I should create my own blocking system to implement all of those?) 

I've heard of tiger blocking and a 21 palms blocking system.  what is the first blocks of the 12 hands of the tiger? maybe that's one of those that I partially know.


----------



## KempoShaun (Dec 23, 2006)

have it, taught it, applications are fun.  Learned it from Mark Grupposo, Rob Whitney and Hugh Mclauflin (anyone know what happened to Hugh, he was a 5th in Mass.?) lots of palm strikes that look like tiger claws, upward inverted blocks, etc...


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Dec 25, 2006)

Iron Leopard said:


> Ok as I have em.
> 
> 8 point (closed, open and counterstrikes to both sets)
> Iron fortress (closed and open)
> ...


 
Masters blocking system was made up by Mr. Mattera for a Seminar...right before a seminar.


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Dec 25, 2006)

Ok.  This is how I have 12 hands of the tiger:

Bow.  Step out with the right foot to a horse stance, rotate the hands to an open handed on guard.

1.  strike with a downward claw to the face, with the left hand on top and the right hand guarding the ribs (directly towards the left hand side).  Rake the face, pull the hands in towards the body and restrike towards the left side.  

2.  repeat the pattern on the right side.

3.  upward palm, with the right hand, to the front, chin height.  leave the strike out.

4.  left upward palm, to the front, chin height.

5.  right inverted tigers claw to the groin, grab, rolling backfist to the face.

6. left inverted tigers claw to the groin, grab, rolling backfist to the face.

7.  tigers trap on the right side (think of a dragon trap and make tiger's claws instead)

8.  tigers trap on the left side. 

9.  towards the front left side, tiger rake block with the left, pass with the right hand, and tiger palm strike with the left to the face.

10.  swith sides.  front right side, tiger rake block with the right, pass with the left, and tiger palm strike with the right to the face.

11.  dragons claw (the pointer and middle finger strike), right hand on top, towards the face while left hand checks the ribs, towards the right.

12.  switch to the left side.  

roll the hands into the center, back into a chamber, and bow.  

Any questions?


----------



## Matt (Dec 26, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> Ok.  This is how I have 12 hands of the tiger:
> 
> Bow.  Step out with the right foot to a horse stance, rotate the hands to an open handed on guard.
> 
> ...



Do you mind terribly if I add this to the online technique archive? 

I tried it and some of the transitions seem a smidge...clunky. Are the rights and lefts in the correct order? 

Thanks, 

Matt


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Dec 26, 2006)

I don't mind at all.  PM me and I will do my best for transitions.


----------



## marlon (Dec 27, 2006)

Thanks for sharing.  i will give it a try.

Be well

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Dec 27, 2006)

Matt said:


> Do you mind terribly if I add this to the online technique archive?
> 
> I tried it and some of the transitions seem a smidge...clunky. Are the rights and lefts in the correct order?
> 
> ...


 
I am going to try to tape this and put it on youtube as a reference.  Please be patient.


----------



## 14 Kempo (Dec 27, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I am going to try to tape this and put it on youtube as a reference. Please be patient.


 
Thanks, I'm anxious to see it.


----------



## Matt (Dec 27, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I am going to try to tape this and put it on youtube as a reference.  Please be patient.



Fantastic. Thanks for sharing. 

Matt


----------



## Iron Leopard (Dec 29, 2006)

Regarding the Masters blocking system.  I had it a very long time ago, when do have the professor making it up and which seminar was this?  Curious to know how long I got it after he made it up! lol


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Dec 29, 2006)

Iron Leopard said:


> Regarding the Masters blocking system. I had it a very long time ago, when do have the professor making it up and which seminar was this? Curious to know how long I got it after he made it up! lol


 

LOL!  I have it happening very late 80's, early 90's, right after the breakup.


----------



## 14 Kempo (Dec 29, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> LOL! I have it happening very late 80's, early 90's, right after the breakup.


 
Interesting, cause I believe the Villari system teaches it as well, at least I've seen a Villari based 5th Dan BB doing it, but who knows where he got it.


----------



## Iron Leopard (Dec 30, 2006)

regarding Masters blocking.  I've been taught many applications of it including techniques starting with the various blocks and been teaching it as well- I find it a very effective system. Though of course not a be all end all blocking system it is a great addition to any martial artists arsenal in my opinion.


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Dec 30, 2006)

14 Kempo said:


> Interesting, cause I believe the Villari system teaches it as well, at least I've seen a Villari based 5th Dan BB doing it, but who knows where he got it.



They don't teach it as a part of the curriculum.  They also don't have northern and southern tigers in the system, but the school in lake forest does for FV.  Where did he get it?


----------



## 14 Kempo (Dec 30, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> They don't teach it as a part of the curriculum. They also don't have northern and southern tigers in the system, but the school in lake forest does for FV. Where did he get it?


 
I'll PM you


----------



## SK101 (Jan 2, 2007)

Iron Leopard said:


> regarding Masters blocking.  I've been taught many applications of it including techniques starting with the various blocks and been teaching it as well- I find it a very effective system. Though of course not a be all end all blocking system it is a great addition to any martial artists arsenal in my opinion.



   Was anyone ever told any focuces for Master's Blocking System. I.E. Long Range, Short Range, Deflecting, Etc.

Hope this Message finds you in good health and spirits
SK101


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Jan 2, 2007)

SK101 said:


> Was anyone ever told any focuces for Master's Blocking System. I.E. Long Range, Short Range, Deflecting, Etc.
> 
> Hope this Message finds you in good health and spirits
> SK101


 
Went thru it with Master Black in a workout one morning.  Don't remember though.  Sorry.


----------



## MeatWad2 (Jan 2, 2007)

SK101 said:


> Was anyone ever told any focuces for Master's Blocking System. I.E. Long Range, Short Range, Deflecting, Etc.
> 
> Hope this Message finds you in good health and spirits
> SK101



If your looking for a good blocking and striking art check out a wing chun school.


----------



## Iron Leopard (Jan 2, 2007)

Master's blocking can be broken down in different parts and it covers a variety of applications.

One of the focuses being on moving with your blocks.  There are also trapping techniques and grab defenses and guard work.  I really do like it as an addition to the other blocking systems. You can work some really great drill from it as well.


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Jan 3, 2007)

Iron Leopard said:


> Master's blocking can be broken down in different parts and it covers a variety of applications.
> 
> One of the focuses being on moving with your blocks.  There are also trapping techniques and grab defenses and guard work.  I really do like it as an addition to the other blocking systems. You can work some really great drill from it as well.



Ok.  You can work moving and blocking without moving.  It's called innovative body movement.  However, I have seen the triple one man pattycake block used effectively during a russian hat dance.  It was like a holy alliance of larry tatum n and michael flatly.  I made sure I taught my students to have that important concept.


----------



## almost a ghost (Jan 3, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> Went thru it with Master Black in a workout one morning.  Don't remember though.  Sorry.



HA! That's who I learned it from to, I actually just remembered the first half of it or so.


----------



## almost a ghost (Jan 3, 2007)

The first half or so, Or so how I remember it.

1. Fancy schmany chinese kung fu bow
2. Horse stance (the chinese one where you are more standing than squatting)
3a. Left foot steps behind right while executing a left hand parry to the right, follow up a right knife block to the right. Left hand protects the ribs through this entire sequence.
3b. Execute a verticle right ridge hand block (palm facing you, fingers pointing up, done by rotating the wrist counter clockwise)
3c. Right tigers mouth block to the opponents wrist (done by rotating the palm to the right clockwise.
3d. Press down with back of right hand while hand is forming leopard paw (palm up, fingers pointing to your right).
3e. Right upword elbow block to cover head
3f. Right down elbow block to cover ribs.

Repeat enitre sequence for left side.

I kind of kungfused myself on the middle section. I'll probably remember it while I'm at work... man, I haven't does this form since 98.


----------



## Iron Leopard (Jan 3, 2007)

Hey say what you will about it but masters blocking is a good system. lol It's not the best but it is full of great applications.  somebody punch me and I'll show you how it works! lol


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Jan 3, 2007)

Iron Leopard said:


> Hey say what you will about it but masters blocking is a good system. lol It's not the best but it is full of great applications.  somebody punch me and I'll show you how it works! lol



Hey iron leopard, who is your instructor?  What if someone is going to do something beside a punch from a half moon stance with a kiai?  What about a kick?  Knee?  Elbow strike?  Wrestling type takedown?  How does masters blocking address that?  To be honest, I started this thread to see if anyone has any insights to 12 hands of the tiger, not to debate the effectiveness of masters blocking system.  However, let's do that...let's debate the brilliance of Masters blocking system...or better yet, since there is soooo much application then YOU should make a thread devoted to it.  Be sure to include applications that are not just about someone punching in with a front punch to the sternum.  Even though they are the only attacks you recognize as a "nidan" they are not the only ones that will happen in the street.

An opinion I heard about why people like this blocking system and it's beacause master is in the title.  They think they are a master because of it.  I tend to agree after reading that post.


----------



## Iron Leopard (Jan 13, 2007)

whoa! Ok just so you know where I stand on blocking systems.  

I teach and train with 8 point blocking, plum tree blocking, ten point blocking and of course "masters blocking' and all of my combos and kempo techniques as follows.

from right handed punching stance and kia, but also from left handed stance, double punches, as grabs instead of punches, in dragon circles and gauntlets, moving forward and backwards, with mutliple attackers( maybe 1 guy on each side of me punching whenever they feel like it) also as one guy grabbing my hand and the other guy punching etc.  

If you have masters blocking system or even plum tree for that matter you will see that both are great against grabls and multiple attackers. whew!

and gufbal I hope you practice the same way and with even more variations in your training like I do!  now....how about teaching me 12 hands of the tiger?


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Jan 13, 2007)

Iron Leopard said:


> whoa! Ok just so you know where I stand on blocking systems.
> 
> I teach and train with 8 point blocking, plum tree blocking, ten point blocking and of course "masters blocking' and all of my combos and kempo techniques as follows.
> 
> ...


The fact that it took you two weeks to respond proves my point to a tee.  That's really nice that you "train" with people that only wear a belt in your system...am I right?  

Actually, I do train with more variations than you could possibly imagine.  You should try training with people from outside systems.  Chances are that you will not be attacked by one of your students or friends from inside the system. Train with someone that actually trains in BJJ, Kickboxing, a taiji master, freestyle wrestling, and so on.  When you actually do this and open your mind then come talk to me.  Until then, have fun living in your kempo box.


----------



## MeatWad2 (Jan 13, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> The fact that it took you two weeks to respond proves my point to a tee.  That's really nice that you "train" with people that only wear a belt in your system...am I right?
> 
> Actually, I do train with more variations than you could possibly imagine.  You should try training with people from outside systems.  Chances are that you will not be attacked by one of your students or friends from inside the system. Train with someone that actually trains in BJJ, Kickboxing, a taiji master, freestyle wrestling, and so on.  When you actually do this and open your mind then come talk to me.  Until then, have fun living in your kempo box.



Haha!!  smack down.


----------



## Iron Leopard (Jan 13, 2007)

Well actually I just trianed with a kung fu guy last week and learned some good sparring drills and counters to counters that I hadn't thought about before! Not to mention a stance workout. and the week before that I had a bouncer in here that taught me a new way to work an arm bar on someone that I had never learned before.  As you know ...we don't focus most of our attention on ju-jitsu type techniques and that so ti was refreshing..oh wait. I was training with someone outside my system! He wasn't even wearing a belt and his pants did not fall down! lol

I also appologize to any of you who post a reply to one of my posts. I don't get on everyday.. and sometimes only for a quick minute before I'm off line for a couple of days! 

Now....time for 12 tigers yet??


----------



## Hand Sword (Jan 13, 2007)

Actually Gufbal, outstanding advice on two fronts.

1. Cross training with artists who specialize in a way like grappling, boxing, etc.. is a great way to advance your self defense skills with your kempo. No one in your class will punch, shoot, etcc as well as them. When you adapt to them, you'll be fine against anyone.

2. The open mindness should be observed by ALL here in the MT forums. This is espeacially true regarding the SKK system. Those who assume, should really "know" the system, before making their posts, and attempt to come out of their boxes.


----------



## Iron Leopard (Jan 13, 2007)

Hand Sword- I couldn't agree with you more.


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Jan 13, 2007)

Iron Leopard said:


> Hand Sword- I couldn't agree with you more.



It is posted on here, and in the SKK technique archive...what do you want to know about it?


----------



## Matt (Jan 16, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> It is posted on here, and in the SKK technique archive...what do you want to know about it?



Yes, it is up on the archive. Thanks again Gufbal1982!

Matt


----------



## MeatWad2 (Jan 16, 2007)

Matt said:


> Yes, it is up on the archive. Thanks again Gufbal1982!
> 
> Matt



Thats a cool site Matt!


----------



## almost a ghost (Jan 16, 2007)

almost a ghost said:


> The first half or so, Or so how I remember it.
> 
> 1. Fancy schmany chinese kung fu bow
> 2. Horse stance (the chinese one where you are more standing than squatting)
> ...



Here's the 3rd quarter.

From the left downward elbow:
4. Right foot steps out to 45 degree angle, right raking tiger claw from left to right quickly followed by the left.
5. Left foot steps to 12 o'clock, body is now facing 12 o'clock and repeat the tiger claws starting with the left going from right side to left side.
6a. Rotate body back to right 45 degree angle. Right chicken wrist to eye height while left parry to cover ribs.
6b. Right forearm comes down and meets the left forewarm in a cross.
6c. Rotate wrists towards body while mantaining cross so that the palms are up.
6d. Continue motion and circles arms outward and then press down with double downward parry.
7. Right foot steps through to 12 o'clock and face a left 45 degree angle and mirror hand motions from step 6.

Now at this point I lose it, but I know you turn to face 6 o'clock and perform sound kind of left downward block while right hand is on guard...


----------



## Matt (Jan 16, 2007)

MeatWad2 said:


> Thats a cool site Matt!



Thanks for the kind words. It's been cool - several people have sent in techniques, and it's been fun seeing how other folks do things. I figured if more information was out there, it would 'raise the bar' for quality, as in it would actually matter if an instructor could apply the material well, instead of just 'holding  the secrets hostage'. 


Matt


----------



## MeatWad2 (Jan 16, 2007)

Matt,
Have you thought about putting all the combos and kempos on video?

At villari's there is 12 techniques for each combo.

Maybe theres a Villaris master on here that give them all to you.


----------



## graychuan (Jan 22, 2007)

Yes, I have this blocking system and it is very useful provided you have learned the applications of the movements. This is the same with all formal exercises. I have an application for every movement for every form I have learned. In Master Richert's school in Louisville, Ky it is taught at 2nd degree black belt.


----------



## Gufbal1982 (Jan 23, 2007)

graychuan said:


> Yes, I have this blocking system and it is very useful provided you have learned the applications of the movements. This is the same with all formal exercises. I have an application for every movement for every form I have learned. In Master Richert's school in Louisville, Ky it is taught at 2nd degree black belt.


 
Do you have a video of it?  I'm coming up with tons of applications for the blocking system as we speak...


----------



## kempo7 (Jan 31, 2007)

Yes I have it and still teach it


----------



## sifubry (Mar 6, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I learned a blocking system from an ex villari guy in NH, and was wondering, does anyone else still teach 12 hands of the tiger?  USSD and Fred Villari's studios don't...



I do in my school. We teach it around brown or black belt. I also teach the 16 palm blocking system and the Master's set. I think the last one is also called Eagle claw blocking system.

1. 8 pt closed and open
2. 8 pt with counters
3. 16 palms
4. 10 pt
5. 12 hands of tiger
6. plum tree 
7. masters

That's the order we teach these things. Got them via the old FVSSK.

Sifu Bry


----------



## marlon (Mar 6, 2007)

i thought the masters blocking came from ussd...learn something new every day.
sifubry could you post here or with matt the 16 palm set.  i have not heard of it before
does anyone else have 4 point blocking?

marlon


----------



## Matt (Mar 6, 2007)

marlon said:


> i thought the masters blocking came from ussd...learn something new every day.
> sifubry could you post here or with matt the 16 palm set.  i have not heard of it before
> does anyone else have 4 point blocking?
> 
> marlon



Palm set? He sent it earlier today, it's up. (Thanks SifuBry) I think it could possibly use some elaboration, for those of us unfamiliar with the terminology. I'd hate to impose, but I'm having a little trouble visualizing a couple of the moves based on the descriptions.  I was also under the impression that the 'Masters Set' was strictly USSD. 

By 4 point do you mean the one that's 'chicken wrist' based? I'd forgotten about that one. I was never sure it was an official set, or whether it came from my first instructor's imagination. 

Matt


----------



## sifubry (Mar 13, 2007)

The Master's Set could be only USSD. At the time, I didn't know there was much difference between FVSSD and USSD since I trained (and tested) with all those guys over on this coast under the same banner.

I learned it long after the split so you could say it's only USSD. Not sure really. After the split, there weren't any FVSSD guys around here. (Shrug)

I'll have to provide better descriptions for the 16 palms blocking set. I'll do it later on when i have time. Sorry it was so cryptic.

Sifu bry


----------



## Matt (Mar 13, 2007)

sifubry said:


> The Master's Set could be only USSD. At the time, I didn't know there was much difference between FVSSD and USSD since I trained (and tested) with all those guys over on this coast under the same banner.
> 
> I learned it long after the split so you could say it's only USSD. Not sure really. After the split, there weren't any FVSSD guys around here. (Shrug)
> 
> ...



I understand completely, and appreciate the time issue. The stuff you've sent in has been really helpful already. Whenever you get around to it is great. 

Thanks, 

Matt


----------

