# How much does this REALLY matter?



## Tgace (Oct 20, 2005)

As an offshoot of my thread that got itself locked....

How much does all the pissing, moaning and politics on the internet really impact Modern Arnis? Some people have implied that the "internet games" are "bringing the art down". Just how big of an impact on "The Art" do you think the stuff that pops up here has? 

IMO. The opinions and posts of a no account, low rank unknown (like myself) really have no or low impact. Beyond the reactions and responses of the "major players" that may or may not respond to them. So some guy named Tgace on Martial Talk said "X" about "Y". So what? I could just as easily go to the ninjutsu forums and post there. Will I (a non practicioner) then be "bringing down" ninjutsu? You know what they say about opinions......

Now the "major players" here...IMO their words and actions can have an impact. People are probably going to pay attention to what they get themselves into. The issue then becomes how many people looking for an art to practice have decided to take or not take an art (or study under an instructor) based on political threads on the internet? Does the "average guy on the street", looking for a school, talk to his buddies about the latest flame war on the net? Are we really affecting or changing anything by posting here, or are we just inflating our egos and self-importance by thinking we are?


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2005)

IMO, I think that everyone, both the minor and major players ultimately have an effect on the art.  I think that no matter what the art is, once the head person passes on, without leaving a designated person in charge, you will always find the fighting.  Even if someone was left in charge there still may be fighting, but it seems to me that recently there has been an increase in the Modern Arnis world.  

People in the Kenpo world are doing the same thing, so its not isolated to Arnis.  IMO, if you are happy with what you're doing, have no interest in leaving your current org., etc., then why should or would it be a concern to what someone in another org. is doing?  Keep training hard, and continue to spread the art in a positive way.

Mike


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## Flatlander (Oct 20, 2005)

I think that the negative things that people express on the internet are reflections of the type of people they are.  I think the positive things that people share are contributions, insofar as they are a standing piece of knowledge that anyone who chooses may access and partake of.

 I think that for the common folk with enough intiative to do their own due diligence when researching the art they study or perhaps want to study, seeing political issues hammered out on a public website every day can be disturbing and off putting.  In fact, it can really take away one's initiative to excel and become a leader in their own right.  Because, really, why would I do that to myself?


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## shesulsa (Oct 20, 2005)

I'm sorry to say that there is plenty of other training similar to Arnis that is available without the political BS and honestly, everybody knows about the political BS.  Whether it's liked or not, there are many many people who just won't go there with the politics and the ones who just want to jump in to learn the art usually only want to fight or learn enough to defend themselves. There are very few who want to foster it and help it grow.

 I understand this predicament quite well. And I wish y'all the very best of luck.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 20, 2005)

If the mud slinging happens online, I'd make a reasonable leap to it goes on offline as well.

 And it is never good for any art, except for people with big ego's that need to be protected by mud slinging.

 But to say it is a modern arnis problem is simply not true, it is a problem in most styles.  The internet however gives people a bigger voice to sling it with.

 Peoples actions online definately can carry over to the real world, mud slung can carry over to the real world.  

 In a way it keeps people honest, if someone claims to have 3 9th dans, a 10th dan and be a "soke", they will get that kicked in there face online in view of everyone that cares too look. 

 But on the other hand a good deal of it is personal differences in views on training that neither side is being missleading or lieing, they just do things differently. From an outside perspective both come off looking bad.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 20, 2005)

MA has it's problems. So does every art. Kenpo, JKD, TKD, etc. All have their little ugly warts. The problem here is, it's rather blatent.

 I've had many people ask me why we put up with it.
 Because. Because, this area is for Modern Arnis, and damn it, if the MA people want to play games, belittle, demean, insult, slight, shoot, and slam each other, then that's what they get to do. I think it shows the true character of those involved. The real subtle shots most folks miss, but there have been some rather blatent ones, and they bother me.

 I look at Kenpo, which has just as many egos, politics, etc, and what do I see?
 Seminar news, technique breakdowns and walk throughs, photos, videos, useful advice.

 I look at MA and what do I see?  Very little besides ads and surveys.

 How about some meat folks?

 I put up 3 threads about the 1st 3 forms.  I got -1- reply.
 Thanks.

 I put out a call for content.
 I got nada.

 I've asked repeatedly, seen some folks really try to build us some serious content.
 All seemingly wasted effort.

 I get asked regularly why there is so little content here. I honestly don't know.
 I know we have a number of long term serious practitioners. One would think they would know, and be able to share.
 But, that's not what happens.

 I'm wondering, maybe it's time for MT to drop Modern Arnis. Lock the forum, archive the mess and move on. 

 What does all this crap do? It drives people away, it gives the wrong picture of the art. An ugly picture.

 I started training in MA because I found it to be an easily learned, yet challenging to perfect art. Something infinately flexible. This forum was intended to help other seekers see the wonder I did.

 It sure would be nice if that was possible.  But, 4 years later, I'm getting jaded. And I haven't seen anything the last few months to unjade me.

 Can anyone prove I'm wrong? Can anyone drop the games, shots, slings, and other BS and maybe, just maybe, get into some serious discussions on technique? Without pissing and moaning about "whos right", and simply rejoice in the differences and variations?

 Because, if all I see of an art is arguements, and ads, why would I want to waste my time with it? You want to argue, theres places out there that live for the crap, go there.  If you want to discuss the meat of the art, stay here.  Maybe we just need to go extreme-heavy on moderation, and filter out -ALL- noise?


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## arnisador (Oct 20, 2005)

I don't think the Internet noise has much effect on the art. It seems like a big deal to the handful of Modern Arnis practitioners here, but most people don't even know about it. Sure, some do, but by and large people here about the real conflicts--that there really was a split among the MOTTs, etc. That's not Internet news.

Does it _reflect_ a more general situation? Sure. There's a lot of jockeying for position among the various orgs. out there. At least 3 orgs. claim to be the true heirs of the Prof.--that's at least 2 too many, and maybe 3.

As to shutting down this subforum--I have no feelings on this. The much larger arts of Judo and TKD have nearly dead fora here. The Karate forum gets little action. This site has attracted the people that it has attracted. They're talking about what they want to talk about. Like it or not, politics _is_ the big issue in Modern Arnis right now. Shutting that out would be misleading--but I agree, would lead to a more useful, welcoming, and interesting forum to read.


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2005)

The thing is...Ive been on various Martial Arts internet forums over the years and Ive seen one thing to be true...The "meat" threats/topics rarely survive for long. IMO, martial arts is primarily a "physical medium". You are only going to get so much mileage over descriptions of physical movement. 9 times out of 10 I give up on trying to visualize some other persons description of how to perform "technique X". Politics, history, personal stories or "hot topics" are going to get the traffic. For all the "complaining" about the types of topics mentioned, look at the traffic. 

What gets better ratings PBS documentaries or soap operas? Unfortunately I think its human nature in play here.....


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 20, 2005)

It is a physical medium. However, you can express it in a written and visual format. If not, we wouldn't have the multi-million dollar industries of books, tapes and disks out there.

Also, considering the low cost of digital cameras, it shouldn't be too hard for someone to take a few pics or a short clip, post it and say "this is what I mean".

Also, maybe the meat threads would work if people could keep their minds more open, rather than being so quick to hammer someone else for being different or taking a different approach.  The human body only moves in so many different ways.  I highly doubt that any art is unique, just a different combinations of movement that worked for it's creator.

As to the events, it's great to know whats going on. I think it would be better to know why we should care. So what if so-n-so going to teach 'armbars'. What makes them worth seeing? Matter of fact, whats an 'armbar'? Where else will they be teaching, and what will they be covering?

There is a ton of positive stuff that could be discussed.  Instead, 66+% of threads are little more than chatter, blather, and adverts.

I for one would much prefer to learn something from reading things, rather than feeling like a babysitter, and sadly, the later feeling is more common. I would prefer it to change, but short of writing my own MA book, producing my own line of videos, and maybe even a clothing line, I can't do it.

It's simple. If you want to deal in the soap opera level garbage, MT is not the place for you. Theres at least 1 forum out there that thrives on hollow empty pap. We don't want to be it. 

A few cases in point:
- The "What have you done" thread, could have been taken as a "What have you been up to lately" type thing, but instead was seen by some as a "1 upmanship content.".
- The Striking patterns thread turned into an argument about purity in the art, rather than a professional exploration of the angles, the variants, and what they mean.
etc.

There is plenty to talk about. Unless your point Tom, is that the Modern Arnis community lack the maturity and professionalism to talk about it, prefering instead to sling mud and such? 

There are many in the MA community who I would love to hear from. They however avoid forums because of the mud, the politics, the crap.  Imagine, what information we could see, if they felt welcome here?


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2005)

Does anybody "have to" read whats posted? Or respond to it? Isnt that what the ignore feature is all about?


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## Guro Harold (Oct 20, 2005)

In the computer field we understand the concept of "GIGO", which is "garbage in, garbage out!"

It grew to a paradigm of "GDGPI", which means, "garbage doesn't get put in" in the first place.

Hopefully by leaning to the second case, the MA forum can be more about content than controversy.


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2005)

Dare I make the analogy?


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## Guro Harold (Oct 20, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Dare I make the analogy?


Classic picture of "rubbernecking"?


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2005)

IMHO

If I get on this forum and say "Im against abortion and will do whatever I can to overturn Roe v Wade" I will get some people to debate me but in the long run most of you will say "eh..so what?". If however it was discovered that the President of the US was posting here and said the same stuff then what would be the difference?

A large one... and thats why I think that the actions of the "leaders" here hold more weight.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 20, 2005)

Let's review the main splash page, it shows the mission statement of MT:

"Welcome to MartialTalk.com, one of the premier internet destinations for the martial artist. MartialTalk is dedicated to the friendly discussion of the martial arts, and the promotion, preservation and support of both the arts and the artists that study them."


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## Guro Harold (Oct 20, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Let's review the main splash page, it shows the mission statement of MT:
> 
> "Welcome to MartialTalk.com, one of the premier internet destinations for the martial artist. MartialTalk is dedicated to the friendly discussion of the martial arts, and the promotion, preservation and support of both the arts and the artists that study them."


So this is pretty much has been my mission as a member and as staff.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 20, 2005)

I can understand and respect the need to communicate concerns to people at the top but to me direct letters and communicades to those individuals have more impact.


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2005)

Ideal and reality oftentimes run in opposite directions....unfortunately.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 20, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Ideal and reality oftentimes run in opposite directions....unfortunately.


That's so true, but actually, this discussion has caused me to understand more of where you are coming from.

Thanks,

Harold


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2005)

Because so many people here know who I am and what I do for a living, I do not have the luxury of posting some things that would be in conflict with my occupation. You can be sure that if I did that it would leak back into "real life".

The more prominent you are the more carefully you have to post. Its not just here either. If I had a blog ID'ing myself and my employer and was posting some controversial stuff on it that is going to impact on me as well. 

If you are going to ID yourself on the internet and post your mind, beware. The politics here are an example.


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> That's so true, but actually, this discussion has caused me to understand more of where you are coming from.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Harold


:asian:

Im of the mind that "if there is a problem, investigate it and TRY to figure it out." Much of this stuff is just rehashing that nobody seems to want to look into and resolve...in one way or another.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 20, 2005)

In the long run I don't thnk it's going to matter much.  What will matter is the in person presentation and efforts to disseminate the art.

Why "meat topics" do not survive long?  I have my own spin on that.  A. It's hard to really put to words detailed descriptions of techiques and so forth and B. it's also hard to read such descriptions and really duplicate what the writer intends, especially if you have less experience in the art.  As tot he anyos, I would love to write long (and probably boring) tomes about the applications (which I have in a different fashion) but I really don't think many people would read them.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 20, 2005)

Which Dan, is why your books take a very visual approach to getting information across, an approach which is available here.  It just takes some effort I think.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 20, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Which Dan, is why your books take a very visual approach to getting information across, an approach which is available here.  It just takes some effort I think.


Sayeth the geek to the geekily-challenged.   :asian: 
Very much effort for moi.

Yours,
Dan


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## Andrew Green (Oct 20, 2005)

Also brings ego's in, as soon as someone posts pictures it will get ripped apart and insulted no matter how well it is done.  Even the top guys in different systems publish books only to have a handful of people say they are crap.

 But yes, thats just too much work


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 20, 2005)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Sayeth the geek to the geekily-challenged.   :asian:
> Very much effort for moi.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan


 I believe we have a visual walkthough in development to help the "geekdeprived"


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 20, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Also brings ego's in, as soon as someone posts pictures it will get ripped apart and insulted no matter how well it is done. Even the top guys in different systems publish books only to have a handful of people say they are crap.
> 
> But yes, thats just too much work


  True. But not here.


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## Pappy Geo (Oct 25, 2005)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> In the long run I don't thnk it's going to matter much.  What will matter is the in person presentation and efforts to disseminate the art.
> 
> Why &quot;meat topics&quot; do not survive long?  I have my own spin on that.  A. It's hard to really put to words detailed descriptions of techiques and so forth and B. it's also hard to read such descriptions and really duplicate what the writer intends, especially if you have less experience in the art.  As tot he anyos, I would love to write long (and probably boring) tomes about the applications (which I have in a different fashion) but I really don't think many people would read them.
> 
> ...


Well said Dan, But why don't you give it a shot on the Anyo Isa thread and it would be educational to get another input


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## Pappy Geo (Oct 25, 2005)

Quote Bob Hubbard: (I put up 3 threads about the 1st 3 forms. I got -1- reply.Thanks.I put out a call for content.I got nada.I've asked repeatedly, seen some folks really try to build us some serious content.All seemingly wasted effort.I get asked regularly why there is so little content here. I honestly don't know.I know we have a number of long term serious practitioners. One would think they would know, and be able to share.But, that's not what happens.)
Bob, I tried to kick in the Anyo Isa thread as researching the anyos and getting good clean discussions going with a varity of viewpoints would have been excellent educational opportunities but only one other person replied and I know darn well with the experience of the readers we could of had a lot of valued feedback.So goes the flow...


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 26, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> MA has it's problems. So does every art. Kenpo, JKD, TKD, etc. All have their little ugly warts. The problem here is, it's rather blatent.
> 
> 
> I'm wondering, maybe it's time for MT to drop Modern Arnis. Lock the forum, archive the mess and move on.
> ...


 
I'm sorry your art is going through this and that your personal efforts to advance the cause of Modern Arnis seem not to be bearing the fruit you would like. It is apparent to me, an outsider, that Modern Arnis is going through the same transition pains that Kenpo went through in the decade after SGM Ed Parker's death or TKD went through when TKD split into the ITF and WTF camps. TKD went through some particularly nasty stuff about 25-30 year ago and who can forget the Wing Chun wars of the 1980's?

I'd like to see the same thing that you wish - a MA forum devoted to the subject with a few leadership and event asides. Don't despair, you are a contributor to the art and your efforts are not going unnoticed.

As a result of this forum I am intrigued enough with Modern Arnis to see about buying some tapes to check it out. The little Arnis I got in my Kenpo classes in the 1980's was just enough to teach me some respect for the art.


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## Dalum (Oct 26, 2005)

With everyone that I've exposed to MA, they get their knuckles racked up more than others due to experience and that's enough to respect and want more.  Honestly, that's how I got involved over 12 years ago.


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## shesulsa (Oct 26, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I'm sorry your art is going through this and that your personal efforts to advance the cause of Modern Arnis seem not to be bearing the fruit you would like. It is apparent to me, an outsider, that Modern Arnis is going through the same transition pains that Kenpo went through in the decade after SGM Ed Parker's death or TKD went through when TKD split into the ITF and WTF camps. TKD went through some particularly nasty stuff about 25-30 year ago and who can forget the Wing Chun wars of the 1980's?
> 
> I'd like to see the same thing that you wish - a MA forum devoted to the subject with a few leadership and event asides. Don't despair, you are a contributor to the art and your efforts are not going unnoticed.
> 
> As a result of this forum I am intrigued enough with Modern Arnis to see about buying some tapes to check it out. The little Arnis I got in my Kenpo classes in the 1980's was just enough to teach me some respect for the art.


I remember signing a huge sympathy card (poster board) for the Parker family in a MA supply store all the Kenpo folks went to in OC right after Mr. Parker passed and thinking right then that Kenpo would not be the same again.  Kenpo is still going through some tribulations and is still healing, though I think we're on the other side of that hill now.

I hope that Arnis will see a quicker summit.

Bob, don't give up on your art - it needs people like you - people who see past the BS, who see past the posturing and know the lack of need for it and the consequences.  Politics will always be in your face - train anyway.  Threats and member-waving will abound - train anyway.  You need to return and advance so you can give your art to others and foster a healthier generation of arnisadors.  Make your training time YOURS - not about someone or something else.  This is the best advice I think I could give you. :asian:


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## arnisador (Oct 26, 2005)

For anyone who wants to train, there are lots of seminars going on in the real world and a number of schools. Most of the politics happens _right here_. Otherwise, it seems to me that the orgs. don't come into contact all that much, so there's not so much of it going on in real life.


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## Tgace (Oct 26, 2005)

Any opinions on all the drama associated with some of the threads around here and the poll results to date?


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## shesulsa (Oct 28, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Any opinions on all the drama associated with some of the threads around here and the poll results to date?


I think some people have been vociferous about this.  There is not a need to rehash, only to scroll, read, and shake one's head.


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## MJS (Oct 28, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Any opinions on all the drama associated with some of the threads around here and the poll results to date?


 
Much of the drama is over and done with.  If we're lucky, it'll stay that way.  IMHO, that is stuff that should be discussed off the board.  If people have bad blood towards one another, its between them, not between the people that read this forum.  

I personally would like to see some positive discussions on Modern Arnis.  We have a few threads on the discussion of anyos that Bob started.  Its a shame that they died out so fast with so few replies.  

Mike


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## Lisa (Oct 28, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Any opinions on all the drama associated with some of the threads around here and the poll results to date?



I wish people would put as much passion into spreading the good things about the art to people like me who know nothing at all instead of showing me just political BS and in house fighting.


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## RickRed (Oct 28, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Any opinions on all the drama associated with some of the threads around here and the poll results to date?


 
71.88% of the results of the poll are in the marginal or not at all category.   I think that says it all.

If people can't ask or answer reasonable questions about a topic and have to resort to defensive actions on or offline, then that is their childishness to deal with.  Martial arts, if it does teach anything about personal growth, should be giving us motivation to stand for things we believe in.  That might lead to some heated discussions.

Like the television, people don't have to watch or read.

Positive aspects could also be mature discussions of issues even when when there is a disagreement on the topic.

I am thinking about the William Beltz Attorney commercials that are loaded with shots at the "Barnes Firm" after all the malpractice fall out there.  It looks positive and nice, but really isn't.

It would be a shame for the general public to get a positive impression that is false about a post that was nothing more than a veiled shot at someone.  The poster knew what he intended, the target knew too.  If the outsiders get fooled, that would worse than having it out in the open.

If the Leaders want to hash it out in a public forum, it would be like any election debate where the leaders get to go head to head on issues.  The trick is keeping it mature.

Most of the poll responses shows that the negative isn't going to have a major impact overall, so just keep it within forum rules and enforce those rules fairly if someone goes outside them is what I think.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 29, 2005)

RickRed said:
			
		

> 71.88% of the results of the poll are in the marginal or not at all category.   I think that says it all.
> 
> If people can't ask or answer reasonable questions about a topic and have to resort to defensive actions on or offline, then that is their childishness to deal with. Martial arts, if it does teach anything about personal growth, should be giving us motivation to stand for things we believe in. That might lead to some heated discussions.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but I think that it is the desire of the staff of MT and its other members for all these dramas not to be played on this board and that we stick to content.


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## Tgace (Oct 29, 2005)




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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 29, 2005)

I think Rick and Harold hit it on the head.

75% (as of this posting) see it having some level of effect.

The bottom line is, we want history, facts, techniques, information, and other things that will add to a positive, productive environment.

We don't want challenges, ultimatums, bad-blood, dirty laundry, public pissups, flamefests or subtle sniping.  

"Real Life" issues should be worked out in private, off board preferably. Send an email, a registered letter or pick up a phone. Respect the other persons right to say no, or say nothing. When this stuff is aired here, it creates a negative enviroment, an "us vs them" feel, and keeps others from feeling comfortable joining the conversation. It takes the 'fun' out of things, and if it's not 'fun', I for one, don't want to do it.

There will be times where 2 or more parties have different opinions.
Thats fine.
There will be times when each persons 'facts' differ.
Thats fine too.
Back your position up with supporting data, keep your mind open, and most importantly, keep your cool.


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## Tgace (Oct 29, 2005)

Great stuff....

http://members.aol.com/intwg/flamewars.htm

http://members.aol.com/intwg/antiprocess.htm


> As I said earlier, I'm not really saying anything new. Many people already conduct their discussions with sensitivity to the needs of others. Here's a poem about that kind of approach...
> 
> 
> Density
> ...


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## RickRed (Oct 29, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I think Rick and Harold hit it on the head.
> 
> 75% (as of this posting) see it having some level of effect.
> 
> ...


 
Actually the stats only indicate what people think how important this stuff is.  

It doesn't automatically indicate what any voters want.  That would take a thread or poll that clearly focuses on that idea.

I think the strongest indicators of how important all this stuff is are the unconditional yes or no categories:

Not at all: 25% solid
Yes:         21.88 %

The people who answered conditionally with either "only for the leaders" or marginally can only be valued through interpretation.

That only means that the majority of those that made a strong stance don't think this stuff is that big a deal.

I think the proof in what the viewers whant is currently in the viewing volumes during the heated debates and between the heated debates.

I think it is pretty clear from the volume that there is a lot less traffic when the history, information, facts, techniques.... is the focus.

I still say that contraversies, even the drama of personallities, could be positive contribution if people would stop being defensive, egotistical, assuming and juvenile.  Keep it on the net or off, but keep it mature and keep the spirit of resolving problems alive and even the drama can be productive.

What better postive image could there be than someone willing to go public with an offer to resolve a personallity difference/feud or what ever could there be?

THere is also the problem of whether censoring information or discussions so that only a positive impression or a fun image is presented is fair to the uninitiated.  Wouldn't a false sense of 'positive' really be negative when it looks like a lie when people find out the rest at a seminar or after talking to instructors that gossip with students during classes?


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## Guro Harold (Oct 29, 2005)

This will be the last time that I chime in on this issue in an informal manner.

We welcome any posts in the MA section that means the pre-requisites as stated in this thread:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27549.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 29, 2005)

Bottom line is though, we simply are tired of the problems. 
If that means less traffic, we're fine with that.
If people want a forum full of the primadonnas doing chest banging, they will have to go elsewhere.

I've heard from several major Arnis instructors that the reason they avoid MT is because of the "controvercy". I've heard from more groups than I can count in fact. I, and our staff want that to change. I would love to see the Presas family, the Motts, etc posting, feeling comfortable enough and welcome enough to post. Maybe we can't satisfy them all, but, it would be nice to see a few more high-level folks wandering in.


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## RickRed (Oct 29, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I think that it is the desire of the staff of MT and its other members for all these dramas not to be played on this board and that we stick to content.


 
Based on the high volume of viewers during the drama I would say it is more from the MT staff, and those Staff members involved in MA than the members.

I applaud a desire to screen quality and decency, absolutely.  That is the responsibility of the owners/administrators and it is good to see action to that end.  Enforced fairly and without any bias and it should improve the quality.

It's a shame that the volume doesn't support how popular those actions are so far.  Maybe it will change with time.


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## Tgace (Oct 29, 2005)

Is there a way to find "monster threads"? Threads with the most number of posts?


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## RickRed (Oct 29, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Bottom line is though, we simply are tired of the problems.
> If that means less traffic, we're fine with that.
> If people want a forum full of the primadonnas doing chest banging, they will have to go elsewhere.
> 
> I've heard from several major Arnis instructors that the reason they avoid MT is because of the "controvercy". I've heard from more groups than I can count in fact. I, and our staff want that to change. I would love to see the Presas family, the Motts, etc posting, feeling comfortable enough and welcome enough to post. Maybe we can't satisfy them all, but, it would be nice to see a few more high-level folks wandering in.


 
Again, I'm glad to see the active desire to make a change.  It is also nice to see how you have stepped back from the dramas and improved your behavior over the course of posting.  Personal and professional change all around.

The contraversies could be ONE reason that some players don't show up here or at all, but I would bet that there are other issues too that keep folks from joining in on MT.  You can't control the bad blood or interorganziational fighting or perceptions of quality but you can control the environment here.

Time will tell how it pans out.


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## shesulsa (Oct 30, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I've heard from several major Arnis instructors that the reason they avoid MT is because of the "controvercy". I've heard from more groups than I can count in fact. I, and our staff want that to change.


It's not just Arnis instructors, either, Bob.  And I want it to change too.


			
				RickRed said:
			
		

> What better postive image could there be than someone willing to go public with an offer to resolve a personallity difference/feud or what ever could there be?


I've rarely experienced a feud gone public that really didn't need to be which was resolved publicly - not really.  And we all know dirty laundry draws traffic and always will.  I suppose it depends - do you want a lot of people around you, or do you want a few good people around you?  I'd go for the latter.

Kudos, Bob.  I'm really, really happy you've taken this stand.


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## MJS (Oct 30, 2005)

RickRed said:
			
		

> The contraversies could be ONE reason that some players don't show up here or at all, but I would bet that there are other issues too that keep folks from joining in on MT. You can't control the bad blood or interorganziational fighting or perceptions of quality but you can control the environment here.
> 
> Time will tell how it pans out.
> 
> ...


 
Personally, I don't see how any bad blood, disagreements, or whatever else people want to call it, can possibly be positive??  If we look at the main page of this forum it says "Friendly discussion about the Martial Arts."  That being said, that is exactly what should be taking place.  If people want a grudge match, take it somewhere else.  Its pathetic if people join for the sole purpose of watching an online pissing match!  How is that contributing to the forum?

So, back to some productive discussion about Modern Arnis.  BTW, those anyo threads still seem pretty quiet.

Mike


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 30, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Is there a way to find "monster threads"? Threads with the most number of posts?


Not at the moment. There was a hack for earlier versions of this software, but not this one yet.


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## DrBarber (Nov 2, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't see how any bad blood, disagreements, or whatever else people want to call it, can possibly be positive?? If we look at the main page of this forum it says "Friendly discussion about the Martial Arts." That being said, that is exactly what should be taking place. If people want a grudge match, take it somewhere else. Its pathetic if people join for the sole purpose of watching an online pissing match! How is that contributing to the forum?
> 
> So, back to some productive discussion about Modern Arnis. BTW, those anyo threads still seem pretty quiet.
> 
> Mike


 
Bad blood, etc. is never positive!  It always detracts from putting energy into positive things.  The disagreements will never be solved in public, but the openings/entries to discussions often have to get started in public venues in order to move them to private venues for the nuts and bolts of diplomacy and discussion to take place.

With regard to the anyo threads, the major problem is that these are performance oriented and verbal descriptions are not generally adequate enough to fully explain the subtle differences that exisist between the different people who perform them.  

In addition the Modern Arnis anyos are generally agreed to be Shotokan based, therefore the movements are not entirely compatable to what is taught within the art itself.  In large measure the anyos are linear and the basic movements of Modern Arnis are semi-circular in nature.  

There is a dis-connect between the anyos and the empty hand movements of Modern Arnis.  Until that dis-connect can be resolved, a 
in-depth, detailed discussion is really not possible.  Then there is the 
small matter of disagreements and how people would work toward resolving those disagreements without personal attacks coming forward.  Therefore I am not surprised that there isn't a large influx of people participating in the threads on anyos.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## MJS (Nov 2, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Bad blood, etc. is never positive! It always detracts from putting energy into positive things. The disagreements will never be solved in public, but the openings/entries to discussions often have to get started in public venues in order to move them to private venues for the nuts and bolts of diplomacy and discussion to take place.


 
Sorry Mr. Barber, but I have to disagree. How do you figure that personal matters have to be made public? They IMHO should start and end in private. 



> With regard to the anyo threads, the major problem is that these are performance oriented and verbal descriptions are not generally adequate enough to fully explain the subtle differences that exisist between the different people who perform them.


 
Hmm..well, it is fact that it is hard at times to put something on the forum, have it make sense and at the same time, hope that everyone reading it will understand it. However, that is what a discussion forum is for...to discuss. Take a look at some of the other areas on here...its being done all the time.



> In addition the Modern Arnis anyos are generally agreed to be Shotokan based, therefore the movements are not entirely compatable to what is taught within the art itself. In large measure the anyos are linear and the basic movements of Modern Arnis are semi-circular in nature.


 
The anyos are part of the art. That being said, they should be able to be discussed. They may not seem as 'interesting' as some of the heated matches that take place here, but IMHO they are *much *more productive.



> There is a dis-connect between the anyos and the empty hand movements of Modern Arnis. Until that dis-connect can be resolved, a
> in-depth, detailed discussion is really not possible. Then there is the
> small matter of disagreements and how people would work toward resolving those disagreements without personal attacks coming forward. Therefore I am not surprised that there isn't a large influx of people participating in the threads on anyos.


 
Like any form, there will of course be many different applications/translations. Thats what makes a discussion interesting. Again, most likely the reason they are not active, is because people would rather spend time fighting with others. 

Thanks for the friendly discussion. 

Mike


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 2, 2005)

I put out the Anyos as a start.  Any of the techniques, concepts, etc are fair game for discussion.  I've gotten very few responses to my call for video clips.  If those were up, it would most likely aid in the visualization of the things being discussed.


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## Tgace (Nov 2, 2005)

Martial arts are a physical medium first and a visual one second. 99.9% of the times im lost and dont even bother trying to understand verbal descriptions of techniques. This is a SHOW-DO world here.


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## Guro Harold (Nov 2, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Martial arts are a physical medium first and a visual one second. 99.9% of the times im lost and dont even bother trying to understand verbal descriptions of techniques. This is a SHOW-DO world here.


Great Point, Tgace!

The technique topics are only meant to be a supplement to instruction, not direct instruction itself.

Any supporting member can submit techniques or supply video.

You have done so yourself and I have supplied pictures of various topics myself.

-Palusut


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## DrBarber (Nov 2, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Sorry Mr. Barber, but I have to disagree. How do you figure that personal matters have to be made public? They IMHO should start and end in private.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You're quite welcome.  I see that we have our differences of opinions, so why don't we just leave it at that and move on?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Nov 2, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I put out the Anyos as a start. Any of the techniques, concepts, etc are fair game for discussion. I've gotten very few responses to my call for video clips. If those were up, it would most likely aid in the visualization of the things being discussed.


 
Amen, "Brother" Bob, amen.  Preach on "Bro", preach on.  Technique discussions should be accompanied by videos where possible... it sure makes it easier to understand what someone is trying to convey.  Verbal descriptions are not accurate and specific enough, nor do they present the sublties that often occur in the movements.  It's like the grace notes in music, hard to notate accurately.

I would enjoy seeing some of the video "explaintions".

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Nov 2, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Amen, "Brother" Bob, amen. Preach on "Bro", preach on. Technique discussions should be accompanied by videos where possible... it sure makes it easier to understand what someone is trying to convey. Verbal descriptions are not accurate and specific enough, nor do they present the sublties that often occur in the movements. It's like the grace notes in music, hard to notate accurately.
> 
> I would enjoy seeing some of the video "explaintions".
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


Hi Jerome,

I agree with you in that a "picture is worth more than a thousand words".
We would like as many members who would like to participate in supplying pictures as well as videos to do so if they choose.

-Harold


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## Tgace (Nov 2, 2005)

So has this turned into "How much does written description of technique matter?".....


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## Pappy Geo (Nov 2, 2005)

Dr Barber says: "In large measure the Anyos are linear and the basic movements of Modern Arnis are semi-circular in nature. "

You are correct with the above statement, however out here on the west coast we are taught via Datu Worden and consequently ourselves teach the empty hand Anyos in a circular flowing fashion.

One might conclude it as a evolved path of Anyos. I found it is much easier this way to emphasis full body moment and to apply practical techniques from the Anyos. It seems to allow a deeper study of body physics rather than memorizing a form for form sake.

Datu Hartman a few years ago produced a CD with all 8 empty hand Anyos preformed in a linear fashion, a very good job by the way and I don't know if it is still available but if you were interested you might contact him.

Would it not then be up to you to adapt from the ordinal style what works best for you?

If I am speaking out of place I apologize, but I am just trying to share a path that works for me.


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## arnisador (Nov 2, 2005)

That was always how I understood  the Professor--the forms were taught in a linear fashion for standardization but people were strongly encouraged to do a more flowing style if they felt that was a good fit with their base art (as at the time everyone came to Modern Arnis to augment another art). So Yes, adapting was always encouraged!


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## MJS (Nov 3, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> You're quite welcome. I see that we have our differences of opinions, so why don't we just leave it at that and move on?
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


 
Sounds good.  It does seem like we're looking at the anyos with a different opinion.  I'd be happy to exchange ideas.  Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

Mike


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## Dan Anderson (Nov 3, 2005)

Pappy Geo said:
			
		

> Dr Barber says: &quot;In large measure the Anyos are linear and the basic movements of Modern Arnis are semi-circular in nature. &quot;
> 
> You are correct with the above statement, however out here on the west coast we are taught via Datu Worden and consequently ourselves teach the empty hand Anyos in a circular flowing fashion.
> 
> If I am speaking out of place I apologize, but I am just trying to share a path that works for me.


 Hi George,  Actually, Prof. Presas taught the anyos in the Pac NW pretty much in a linear, Japanese kata stepping fashion.    Kelly circularized the anyo for his group (neither good nor bad).   You are not speaking out of place but adding information, which is welcomed on MT.  Yours, Dan Anderson


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## Darkmoon (Nov 9, 2005)

I'm familiar with the linier type but I haven't seen the circular.


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