# The Knife is a Lousy Weapon for SD



## geezer (Feb 29, 2008)

I've been training in a Filipino martial art called DTE. The art and instrucor are awesome, but lately we've been doing some reality based blade work. God help the man that ever pulls a knife on the guy who teaches this art--or anybody who tries to disarm him! The trouble is, the more I see, the more I'm concluding that a knife is a piss poor tool for self defense. 1. In a real blade altercation, you will both probably get cut up pretty bad. 2. If you are lucky enough to win, the other guy may well die.  3. Try explaining how you cut somebody up to the cops or a jury. Hell, back when I was working with a baston, I knew I could disable someone without necessarily killing them.  And, with my screwed up leg, a walking stick or cane is easy to justify.  Any thoughts?


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## arnisador (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, a knife-on-knife fight is pretty rare. A knife is excellent self-defense against one or more unarmed opponents. Sure, a baton is better in many cases due to reach and all--but it's hard to carry.

A kerambit is a slashing weapon that tends to leave ugly but less-than-lethal wounds. Knives are most lethal when stabbing, after all.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 29, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Well, a knife-on-knife fight is pretty rare. A knife is excellent self-defense against one or more unarmed opponents. Sure, a baton is better in many cases due to reach and all--but it's hard to carry.
> 
> A kerambit is a slashing weapon that tends to leave ugly but less-than-lethal wounds. Knives are most lethal when stabbing, after all.



Does anyone know how common knife-on-knife altercations are? because I was under the impression that they almost NEVER happen, even when compared to the average SD situation.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 29, 2008)

I've been in three "for-real" confrontations involving knives. First one, you're right the guy got cut up but not horrendously so but bad enough to leave me alone long enough to let me get away... no, the cops never found out, I did catch the tip of his blade on the inside of my forearm... the scar is barely visible as a thin white line, happened long ago when I was young (yeah, and stupid). Second one was to fend off two muggers who jumped me on at the bus-stop and one of them pulled a gun, my movements with the blade was enough to give them pause so that (again) I could run. Figured out later the gun was a ruse and likely empty (it was real though) because they could've shot me in the back. Third one was guy (I knew as an acquaintance) walked up to me casually in a semi-crowded room and next thing I know his blade was in my abdomen, my blade caught him across the face via reaction then we were "broke up" by the others in the room. Seems the guy had a non-existent vendetta against me when someone said I did/said something that I didn't. I survived all three because of my blade(s). 

A knife can be an _excellent_ weapon for self-defense. Just like a gun, a baton, a kuboton, a 2X4, hammer, set of keys, a busted bottle or anything else ... it depends upon the user. 
:asian:


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## jks9199 (Feb 29, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Does anyone know how common knife-on-knife altercations are? because I was under the impression that they almost NEVER happen, even when compared to the average SD situation.


The UCR contains some info along the lines; happy hunting.  

My gut feeling is that reported knife-on-knife situations in the US, outside of special population groups and/or prisons, is rare.


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## vforcesfc (Feb 29, 2008)

I totally agree, I have studied Latosa, Inayan, Floro and some other system I just trained in (Name Held)
I am also a Reality Combatives Instructor and we host a FIGHT NIGHT with Stick and Knife every Friday night for all to come a to participate and my students BEAT the GURO's and SURO's of a majority of the Traditional Stick and Knife Arts and I NEVER saw one of the "MASTERS" use anything fancy or tapping to defend....They had a lot of fancy moves with the stick or knife that still got them tagged....90% of my students have no knife or stick training.....

Good Point! Good Post!


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## Guardian (Feb 29, 2008)

*Any weapon is better then no weapon in my view (aside from the legal issues), but in all honesty folks, if you have to defend yourself with a knife, I'm thinking the legal issues are a nonconcern at that point in time.  At the same time, you dang well better be trained in the appropriate way to handle a knife lest it be turned on you.*


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 29, 2008)

geezer said:


> I've been training in a Filipino martial art called DTE. The art and instrucor are awesome, but lately we've been doing some reality based blade work. God help the man that ever pulls a knife on the guy who teaches this art--or anybody who tries to disarm him! The trouble is, the more I see, the more I'm concluding that a knife is a piss poor tool for self defense. 1. In a real blade altercation, you will both probably get cut up pretty bad. 2. If you are lucky enough to win, the other guy may well die. 3. Try explaining how you cut somebody up to the cops or a jury. Hell, back when I was working with a baston, I knew I could disable someone without necessarily killing them. And, with my screwed up leg, a walking stick or cane is easy to justify. Any thoughts?


 In the real world, two guys don't square off and go at it with a knife....if the other guy sees the knife before he's stabbed, you've screwed up.

The contest type blade training is mostly to teach sensitivity....it shouldn't be considered a realistic representation of what such a conflict will be like.

A good scenario to consider is this.....you walk in to a convenience store.....and some guy walks in with a pistol and demands everyone gets in the back room....you open your knife without him seeing, and as he goes to bump you toward the back room, you push his gun hand off line and stab him in the THROAT!  And then USE your knife to cut the tendons in his gun hand, the gun you have a death grip on with your OTHER hand, so he lets go of it!  A struggle over the gun itself would be an equal advantage, but now he's BLEEDING OUT, and you're cutting away at the tendons of his gun arm!

Does it guarantee your survival?  Nope!  But getting herded in to the backroom and shot in the head as often happens in these situations is a guarantee of FAILURE!  And a gun trumps empty hand in that situation. 

Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action!


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 29, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Does anyone know how common knife-on-knife altercations are? because I was under the impression that they almost NEVER happen, even when compared to the average SD situation.


 About as common as the classic movie gun fight where two guys step out in the street at pre-agreed ranges, count to three and draw....in other words 'Almost NEVER!'

A knife is a weapon of STEALTH!  A close range weapon of speed, surprise and violence of action.  It should not be SEEN by your opponent, it should be FELT!


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 29, 2008)

The knife is an excellet weapon if understood properly....to focus too much on dueling (which is fine training) is to obscure the knife's true value.


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## chinto (Mar 1, 2008)

ok, a knife is better then nothing, but in the USA at least jury's tend to not look kindly on the use of a knife for any reason in an altercation.  I think most people some how think only criminals and low life types carry them or know how to use them.  I am sure old hickory and many of our early presidents and others from before 1880 or so would be shocked by the attitude, but it is there.  I asked a cop friend and he said D.A.'s and a lot of cops figure a knife is the tool of the criminal and the assassin... so are likely to arrest and charge were if the same altercation had happened and the defender used a pistol or rifle or shot gun they would not... I think that if I use my blade for self defense, it will be because with out it I am dead. other wise I will go unarmed or use a rock or stick or pistol or what have you. ( but I do carry a good blade for utility and self defense if it gets that desperate!)


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## Doc_Jude (Mar 1, 2008)

I guess that's part of the joys of having no criminal record whatsoever, & have a relatively good public identity. If I have to use a knife and have to deal with the law, my word will have a bit more weight than the other sucker.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 1, 2008)

chinto said:


> ok, a knife is better then nothing, but in the USA at least jury's tend to not look kindly on the use of a knife for any reason in an altercation. I think most people some how think only criminals and low life types carry them or know how to use them. I am sure old hickory and many of our early presidents and others from before 1880 or so would be shocked by the attitude, but it is there. I asked a cop friend and he said D.A.'s and a lot of cops figure a knife is the tool of the criminal and the assassin... so are likely to arrest and charge were if the same altercation had happened and the defender used a pistol or rifle or shot gun they would not... I think that if I use my blade for self defense, it will be because with out it I am dead. other wise I will go unarmed or use a rock or stick or pistol or what have you. ( but I do carry a good blade for utility and self defense if it gets that desperate!)


  The key is knowing your states laws, and if forced to use a knife in self-defense contact a good lawyer before even talking to the police.  Though the Prosecutor may go after you, establishing a firm foundation for your legal use of self-defense will go a long way in convincing a jury (if it unfortunately goes that far) that you were in the RIGHT!  A thorough understanding of your states laws on self-defense, and making sure after you talk to your lawyer that your statement to police (if you choose to make one) covers your actions in terms of those elements will keep you in good stead with the law!


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 1, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> I guess that's part of the joys of having no criminal record whatsoever, & have a relatively good public identity. If I have to use a knife and have to deal with the law, my word will have a bit more weight than the other sucker.


  And if you EVER HAVE TO USE force in self-defense.....get a blood test to show that you have no alcohol or illegal drugs in your system.

If the suspects dies as a result of the altercation, toxicology should be taken on him.  If you have NO alcohol or illegal drugs in your system, and your suspect has booze and/or illegal substances in HIS that goes a long ways to backing you up!


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## punisher73 (Mar 1, 2008)

I think a knife is better than nothing if you need it, but as others have said the "public opinion" of a knife has a lot of negativity to it.

As an LEO if I was in a justifiable lethal force situation I would much prefer to shoot them than be in the same type of situation and kill them with my knife.  WHY? For the most part the public knows cops carry guns and have to shoot people.  When is the last time you heard of a cop slashing out the bad guys throat that had just taken his firearm?  You know how much bad press there would be and how "cruel and unusual" it was?

When asked "why" I carry my knife on duty I always say that it is to cut someone's clothing to provide first aid, or to remove their seatbelt.  Even though I know I would use it to protect my life, it's much easier to show the other uses of it.

As vrocesfc said about his fight night, it reminds me of the Dog Brothers training.  Their training is very basic and hit 'em hard and often.  You don't see the fancy moves that many FMA styles have.  

Someone also mentioned the UCR (uniform crime report)  last I had checked the FBI stats on knife attacks put it at around 80-85% of reported knife attacks were the overhead ice pick grip type stab.  Most of the time you are not going to be facing a trained attacker with the knife who knows how to mask it and flow with it.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 1, 2008)

> I think a knife is better than nothing if you need it, but as others have said the "public opinion" of a knife has a lot of negativity to it.


true
however I have gotten out of a few street situations in the past simply because those that wanted to take what i had suddenly realised that i was carrying a rather large knife on my hip. Just seeing the knife made them back off, I never had to draw it.
I would rather have a knife on me in case of a deadly confrontation than not have one


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 1, 2008)

Personally I would much rather use a firearm for self defense than a knife but a blade would be next in line followed by a blunt instrument.  What is even more important is that you know legally what you can and cannot do to protect yourself when an incident happens.  So that if you do need to protect yourself from a violent assault then after the dust clears you can articulate why you did what you did in order to protect yourself or your family or loved ones.

The knife can be deadly efficient in self defense but you need to know legally when you can use it and articulate why you used it in the end.


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## howard (Mar 1, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> A knife can be an _excellent_ weapon for self-defense. Just like a gun, a baton, a kuboton, a 2X4, hammer, set of keys, a busted bottle or anything else ... it depends upon the user.
> :asian:


I completely agree. You can improvise a weapon out of just about anything. For example, a rolled-up newspaper or magazine can be a fine proxy for a yawara stick, dan bong or whatever you want to call a short stick.

Speaking of carrying knives... this is probably a regional thing, but when I grew up in the South a long time ago, pretty much every male carried at least a pocketknife. I got my first one when I was about six. A very common pastime back then for men was "whittlin'". The point is, if anything broke out, you were almost certain to have some kind of short knife on your person. Lots of guys knew really nasty ways to use them in fights. One common tactic was to unfold a simple pocketknife and put it inside your fist, so that only about 1/4" of the point protruded out of the center of your fist. Then, when you punched somebody in the face, you could also slash them. And the knife was basically invisible.

The more sinister types carried straight razors, like the barbers used to use to shave around your ears and neck. One stroke across the throat with one of those, and that was all she wrote. Many an unfortunate fellow met his end in a barfight that way when I was growing up.

I think things have changed, though... I have two teenaged nephews who are growing up down there, lucky ^&%$#s (in Norfolk, VA), and neither one of them carries a pocketknife. I guess they get in the way of gameboys, cell phones and blackberries.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2008)

Dude... I'm gonna start carrying a claw hammer and some nails.  "I was nailing things, officer" is a valid reason for having a hammer... and I could see valid SD uses for the claw, especuially if its a little hooked, as well as the head for smacking the hell outta someone.  

Bonus!  Thanks for the idea Caver.


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## Doc_Jude (Mar 1, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Dude... I'm gonna start carrying a claw hammer and some nails.  "I was nailing things, officer" is a valid reason for having a hammer... and I could see valid SD uses for the claw, especuially if its a little hooked, as well as the head for smacking the hell outta someone.
> 
> Bonus!  Thanks for the idea Caver.



Hey, a roofer friend of mine always has a roofing hammer and utility knife. I'm a big fan of "weaponizing" tools you use often.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 1, 2008)

A very interesting, if that's the right word, thread, gentlemen.

Around here, we've never had much of an issue with knife fights or indeed gun fights either (tho' the times they are a changin' as the song goes) so it was informative to hear of various members experiences.

From my martial arts training, I concur that the knife is a weapon of stealth and offense rather than defence.  You _can_ use it in a defensive situation but it's maximum effect comes from it's strike when it's prescence is unknown.

That has been 'true' throughout history, as precautions against an opponent who may have a knife are even present within my JSA (sadly for the opponent, the response is usually a removal of a hand or head; not generally applicable on the average American street ).


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## geezer (Mar 1, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> I think a knife is better than nothing if you need it, but as others have said the "public opinion" of a knife has a lot of negativity to it.
> 
> As an LEO if I was in a justifiable lethal force situation I would much prefer to shoot them than be in the same type of situation and kill them with my knife.  WHY? For the most part the public knows cops carry guns and have to shoot people.  When is the last time you heard of a cop slashing out the bad guys throat that had just taken his firearm?  You know how much bad press there would be and how "cruel and unusual" it was?



I'M not a LEO, but this is exactly my point. Knives are very good for hurting and killing, but not the wisest choice for defense in today's world.

Now as MA Caver pointed out, in some parts of the country everyone carried them. My Granpa, an old Arizona rancher, used to say "A man is never without a knife". When my brother and I went out to the ranch to help out, we always carried a jacknife. But we used them as a tool, not as a weapon. Things are different now. Here in Arizona you'd have an easier time justifying shooting someone than stabbing them. We even have a bill up before our state legislature that, if passed, will allow any adult with a permit to carry a gun on school grounds! As a teacher, I wonder if that would help me keep order in the classroom!?!


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## MA-Caver (Mar 1, 2008)

geezer said:


> I'M not a LEO, but this is exactly my point. Knives are very good for hurting and killing, but not the wisest choice for defense in today's world.
> 
> Now as MA Caver pointed out, in some parts of the country everyone carried them. My Granpa, an old Arizona rancher, used to say "A man is never without a knife". When my brother and I went out to the ranch to help out, we always carried a jacknife. But we used them as a tool, not as a weapon. Things are different now. Here in Arizona you'd have an easier time justifying shooting someone than stabbing them. We even have a bill up before our state legislature that, if passed, will allow any adult with a permit to carry a gun on school grounds! As a teacher, I wonder if that would help me keep order in the classroom!?!


Only if your students knew about the gun, which in-of-itself is not a very good idea... one of them might find a way to get it from you. Maybe not likely, but why take the chance? Who'd want another opportunistic school shooting on their conscious? 

Growing up through school, knives were very very rarely used. You'd be thought less of if you brought a weapon to a school fight, or pulled one in an unexpected fight. It was all fists and feet back then and nobody I knew had any kind of martial training. Even me, I didn't start mine until after I dropped out at 15-16 yrs of age and most of that early was impromptu training, somewhere along the lines of... "hey lemme show this to you..." 
But eventually I learned it was better to carry and learn how to use it than to be bare-(empty) hands. The other guys I've known were always armed to one extent or another. Far too many times in street fights I've watched, I've seen how one guy would suddenly start bleeding from a simple punch in the gut that was anything but simple, turned out the other guy had that "hidden blade". 
Situations like that you don't worry about legal niceties. You survive the fight and get the hell out of there, if you lost then chances are you're still going to end up in jail as the officer(s) reporting to the scene will check your priors while you're en-route to the hospital. If you live, well that's another scene entirely, if you don't... well it just another statistic. 
Point is a knife/weapon greatly increases your survivability rate. Even more so if someone taught you the hows and wherefores on using this or that weapon, be it knife, 2 by fore or whatever. 
A lot of you are aware of this as much as I am... the adage applies, even for home defense ... "the more you know..."


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 1, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> In the real world, two guys don't square off and go at it with a knife....if the other guy sees the knife before he's stabbed, you've screwed up.



I have had altercations when I had a knife in my pocket. The only times I as ever able to deploy it, was when I saw the threat way before hand. In the case of some knife encounters I was able to get my blade out but nothing would happen then. They would not engage. Others I was engaged and cut, and they were moving on. 



sgtmac_46 said:


> The contest type blade training is mostly to teach sensitivity....it shouldn't be considered a realistic representation of what such a conflict will be like.



Yes, it is sensitivity. It is awareness. It is for when you are surprised you have something to work with.  



sgtmac_46 said:


> A good scenario to consider is this.....you walk in to a convenience store.....and some guy walks in with a pistol and demands everyone gets in the back room....you open your knife without him seeing, and as he goes to bump you toward the back room, you push his gun hand off line and stab him in the THROAT!  And then USE your knife to cut the tendons in his gun hand, the gun you have a death grip on with your OTHER hand, so he lets go of it!  A struggle over the gun itself would be an equal advantage, but now he's BLEEDING OUT, and you're cutting away at the tendons of his gun arm!
> 
> Does it guarantee your survival?  Nope!  But getting herded in to the backroom and shot in the head as often happens in these situations is a guarantee of FAILURE!  And a gun trumps empty hand in that situation.
> 
> Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action!



Having a plan is good. Practicing the plan is good. Refusing to think about it in the first place can lead to depending upon luck or others.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 1, 2008)

i have to agree completely that a knife is a crappy sd weapon.  we were trained in knife take away and i graduated it and if i take the knife away from the opponent then ill just use hand to hand which is just as effective and i dont have to kill the guy in order for him to get the picture.  i dont think a knife is very great in sd.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 2, 2008)

When someone says a knife is "crappy/lousy/ineffective" for self-defense, it makes me curious about two things: 
-How realistic and relevant is their training?
-How realistic is their understanding of a criminal assault.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 2, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> When someone says a knife is "crappy/lousy/ineffective" for self-defense, it makes me curious about two things:
> -How realistic and relevant is their training?
> -How realistic is their understanding of a criminal assault.


 
KenpoTex and I are watching this thread closely.  Why?  Well because a knife is an *excellent tool* to protect yourself.  It simply falls only behind a firearm and in close range can sometimes be even better than a firearm.  Now the legal issues are a whole different manner but if you use your tool when you are legally able to and justified to do so you should not have a problem.


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## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> i have to agree completely that a knife is a crappy sd weapon.  we were trained in knife take away and i graduated it and if i take the knife away from the opponent then ill just use hand to hand which is just as effective and i dont have to kill the guy in order for him to get the picture.  i dont think a knife is very great in sd.


I'm skeptical of your claim.  I've seen very few truly effective, truly reliable knife disarms that don't have a pretty good chance of the defender getting cut, too.  And the whole "I'll disarm him, then beat him up" idea is silly and unrealistic... and stands a good chance of putting you in jail.  If you do succeed in disarming someone, RUN AWAY with the knife.  Don't continue to fight.  Especially if you plan to drop the knife...


kenpotex said:


> When someone says a knife is "crappy/lousy/ineffective" for self-defense, it makes me curious about two things:
> -How realistic and relevant is their training?
> -How realistic is their understanding of a criminal assault.





Brian R. VanCise said:


> KenpoTex and I are watching this thread closely.  Why?  Well because a knife is an *excellent tool* to protect yourself.  It simply falls only behind a firearm and in close range can sometimes be even better than a firearm.  Now the legal issues are a whole different manner but if you use your tool when you are legally able to and justified to do so you should not have a problem.



I have to agree; a knife CAN be a great tool in self defense.  After all, they've survived for quite a few years as a weapon...


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## Lisa (Mar 2, 2008)

If you are trained properly to use it and trained properly in disarming someone else with it, it is a great tool for self defense.  Now by "trained properly" I don't mean you go through a few disarm techniques here and there, I mean you constantly use it in your training.  It is part of your regular training.  Just like a firearm, you need to constantly work on your skills in a variety of situations, not just "qualify" to carry and leave it at that.

A knife is only a poor tool in self defense when it is brought to a gun fight.  (said with tongue in cheek, peeps,  )


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## Darth F.Takeda (Mar 2, 2008)

You can sever a tendon and make a limb useless or you can sever an artery and bleed him out, knives, by there nature allow for options and a force continuem from scare to damage to maim to kill.

 Not saying any of it iseasy or should be.

 Knife v empty and knife v knife happen and probably a good deal more than Police reports will show. Much violence is unreported or lost in the shuffle. I have seen enough to train for it, but not live paranoid of it.

 Deploying a knife has saved my twice from being in a fight with more than 3 people (an almost certian beating.) sao I am partial to them as a general weapon.


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## matt.m (Mar 2, 2008)

All I will say is one of a Marines best friends is his "K-Bar".  I have seen a lot of different knife style fighting.   However, I love the structure of the K-Bar.  If it were legal in MO. I would carry it.  However, I have to settle for my cane.

I know my K-Bar has saved my bacaon on many occasions.  My favorite knife hands down.  But then again, everything is useful......you just have to train for it.


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## arnisador (Mar 2, 2008)

What's illegal about it? The length?


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## KenpoTex (Mar 2, 2008)

arnisador said:


> What's illegal about it? The length?


 
Can't carry a fixed-blade in MO unless you have a CCW


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## geezer (Mar 3, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> KenpoTex and I are watching this thread closely.  Why?  Well because a knife is an *excellent tool* to protect yourself.  It simply falls only behind a firearm and in close range can sometimes be even better than a firearm.  Now the legal issues are a whole different manner but if you use your tool when you are legally able to and justified to do so you should not have a problem.



Yes it's an excellent tool, but it seems more _offensive_ than defensive... hence the whole legal problem. Kenpotex makes some good points too. And when all's said and done, I _do_ believe that the best defense is offense. If it's really a life or death situation, you can't try to be Mother Teresa. Too much compassion and you'll end up a _dead_ saint! I'll wager that the guy who was talking about disarms hasn't worked with people who know how to use a blade well..Then there's the deterrent factor of a large blade too. That's helpful. So maybe there is more defensive value to a knife than I thought...

OK, now for a non-sequitor. If you're attacked by a whacked-out, drugged-up mugger and you do cut 'em up all Sweeney Todd...what about HIV, hepatitis, and other blood-born pathogens?


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## KenpoTex (Mar 3, 2008)

geezer said:


> Yes it's an excellent tool, but it seems more _offensive_ than defensive...hence the whole legal problem.
> ...And when all's said and done, I _do_ believe that the best defense is offense. If it's really a life or death situation, you can't try to be Mother Teresa. Too much compassion and you'll end up a _dead_ saint!


 With these two statements, you provided the answer to your own question.



geezer said:


> I'll wager that the guy who was talking about disarms hasn't worked with people who know how to use a blade well..


 IMO, 99% of the disarms taught in the martial-arts world (any system) will get you badly injured or killed when facing a strong, highly motivated, or "whacked-out" attacker (anyone that doesn't fall into the "lowest common denominator" or "dumbass" category).



geezer said:


> Then there's the deterrent factor of a large blade too. That's helpful. So maybe there is more defensive value to a knife than I thought...


while there may very well be a deterrent factor with a blade (as, in fact, there often is with a gun), this is not something that should be planned for or counted on.  You should only draw a weapon if you are justified in using it.



geezer said:


> OK, now for a non-sequitor. If you're attacked by a whacked-out, drugged-up mugger and you do cut 'em up all Sweeney Todd...what about HIV, hepatitis, and other blood-born pathogens?


 you can always go to the hospital and get patched up and doped up afterwards.  Do what you have to do to stay alive.


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## shesulsa (Mar 3, 2008)

I keep looking at the OP and I have to say "Lousy Weapon" is really a misnomer and only applicable in the opinion of the poster.

What do you consider a "good" SD weapon? What are the criteria you are using for measure?  

If you are looking for something that works well with minimum effort, minimum contact, effective from a distance, then a firearm is clearly your best choice. But to say a knife is a lousy weapon indicates a lack of confidence with a blade and also a lack of willingness to get close, dirty and cut.  *That* is pure preference - and perhaps an honest assessment of self.

The blade is not for everyone and can, as has been indicated, be viewed by a jury as exactly that - a willingness to get personal with violent self-defense and can lend a sinister factor to the defendant which would be you should you manage to permanently or seriously maim or kill your would-be attacker.  It is not to be taken lightly.

So  "lousy" it may be for our original poster ... but an effective and devastating tool it certainly is - and still a preference of mine.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 3, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I keep looking at the OP and I have to say "Lousy Weapon" is really a misnomer and only applicable in the opinion of the poster.
> 
> What do you consider a "good" SD weapon? What are the criteria you are using for measure?
> 
> ...


Heh, I _knew_ there was a reason why I liked you...


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## matt.m (Mar 3, 2008)

Yep, in MO the blade length is illegal.  Even though I have a squeaky clean record.  Never been in any type of trouble with the law, etc.  It would be next to impossible for me to get a writ or license to carry a K-Bar.  They would see that I am a former Marine with kills via K-Bar, plus extensive knife training.  So I just walk around with my cane and mind my own business.

However, I have sparred with a lot of folks that are supposed to be "Well versed".  In knife fighting.  We used the rubber knifes of course.  To be perfectly blunt, I have not seen anything better than the tactics I used in Haiti, Albania, Tunisia, Israel, Turkey, or Liberia.

But in all fairness, would it be a fair comparrison to have someone who only placed to qualify for nationals in judo randori Karo Paryisian or Mike Swain and expect it to be close?


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## elder999 (Mar 3, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> . But to say a knife is a lousy weapon indicates a lack of confidence with a blade and also a lack of willingness to get close, dirty and cut. *That* is pure preference - and perhaps an honest assessment of self.
> 
> The blade is not for everyone and can, as has been indicated, be viewed by a jury as exactly that - a willingness to get personal with violent self-defense and can lend a sinister factor to the defendant which would be you should you manage to permanently or seriously maim or kill your would-be attacker. It is not to be taken lightly.
> 
> So "lousy" it may be for our original poster ... but an effective and devastating tool it certainly is - and still a preference of mine.


 
And I'm seldom without one, for a variety of uses-it just makes sense to learn how to use it for self-defense as well.

When I am without one, I still have my Mont Blanc pen, which may have saved my life once, because I used it like a knife.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 4, 2008)

matt.m said:


> Yep, in MO the blade length is illegal. Even though I have a squeaky clean record. Never been in any type of trouble with the law, etc. *It would be next to impossible for me to get a writ or license to carry a K-Bar. They would see that I am a former Marine with kills via K-Bar, plus extensive knife training.* So I just walk around with my cane and mind my own business.


okay...I'm curious where in MO law you find anything that would lead you to make the statements you've made in this post (particularly the part I *bolded*)???

If, as you say, you "have a squeaky clean record and have never been in any type of trouble with the law, etc."  you should have no problem obtaining a CCW which covers fixed-blade knives.


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## chinto (Mar 4, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> Can't carry a fixed-blade in MO unless you have a CCW



Does the MO CCW license statute specifically say it licenses blades or only mention fire arms?... I only ask becouse as I understand it most states CCW licenses only cover the carry of a fire arm, and if you have a concealed blade that is large enough to be considered a weapon, CCW or not you go to jail!  my state is that way.

and 2 is there a law against carrying a knife that has a fixed blade if its visible? In my state you may carry a fire arm or knife openly, in a holster or sheath legally. ( I do understand there are some city ordnances in places that are to discourage it, but the state law says you can.  If there is is it some how suspended during hunting season? if not how does a fisherman or hunter carry a blade to dress the game or fish he killed ?


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 4, 2008)

chinto said:


> Does the MO CCW license statute specifically say it licenses blades or only mention fire arms?... I only ask becouse as I understand it most states CCW licenses only cover the carry of a fire arm, and if you have a concealed blade that is large enough to be considered a weapon, CCW or not you go to jail! my state is that way.
> 
> and 2 is there a law against carrying a knife that has a fixed blade if its visible? In my state you may carry a fire arm or knife openly, in a holster or sheath legally. ( I do understand there are some city ordnances in places that are to discourage it, but the state law says you can. If there is is it some how suspended during hunting season? if not how does a fisherman or hunter carry a blade to dress the game or fish he killed ?


 
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000010.HTM
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM

The key word is 'concealed'.  It's legal in Missouri carry a folding pocket knife with a blade length of no more than four inches.  A CCW allows you to carry a concealed Firearm AND Knife.  Of course you can carry either in your vehicle concealed if you're 21 years of age or old WITHOUT a CCW.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000101.HTM
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM

As specifically to blades....having a CCW 





> (1)  Removes the prohibition on the carrying of a firearm or
> other weapon capable of lethal use into any public gathering; http://www.house.state.mo.us/billtracking/bills03/bilsum/truly/sHB349T.htm



So it pretty clearly includes knives under 'other weapons capable of lethal use'.


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