# Sparring and My Difficulty Against Kicks



## wingchun100 (Apr 25, 2018)

I have been practicing martial arts for a long time now...since 1995. However, it was primarily in Wing Chun, where we did no sparring. All we did was Chi Sao. We never even got around to Chi Gerk, which is "sticking LEGS" practice.

In other words, I am saying my footwork and sparring experience was very limited until recently. However, I'm finding out that, despite this late introduction to it, I'm doing all right. However, there is one thing that training in the Chi Sao and/or Boxing range has not prepared me for: it's dealing with kicks.

I don't know why they are such an Achilles heel for me. It's not related to hesitation anymore. At first it was, because I didn't want to get hit. However, I find myself overcoming this fear rather quickly. I think it is a combination of knowing how to defend against them, and then reaction time to actually pull it off.

I've been caught by kicks where, as they were coming at me, it looked like slow-motion...yet I still got tagged! I am talking about roundhouse kicks off the rear leg, and even a spinning back kick.

I'm trying like crazy to keep remembering what Emin Boztepe said in one of his videos: "Don't think about the attack. Think about the angle." Well, a roundhouse kick comes at you in an arc, like a hook punch. Side kicks, push kicks, snap kicks, and spinning back kicks are all straight angles.

In my mind, I have an idea what would work. Now it is just a matter of testing that in reality. What I mean is this: whatever angle they use, you use the opposite. So if someone comes at you with the arc of a roundhouse kick, then you step straight into them. If they use a push kick, then you use what I call "zoning" or "angling" footwork so you (1) evade the straight attack and then (2) can come in at them from an angle.

I know talking about it on a forum only does so much good, because I cannot test it here! LOL Still, I just wanted to write it down and see if it made sense when I read it. Plus, by sharing it with you folks, I can get feedback and/or how YOU handle kicks.


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## skribs (Apr 25, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I have been practicing martial arts for a long time now...since 1995. However, it was primarily in Wing Chun, where we did no sparring. All we did was Chi Sao. We never even got around to Chi Gerk, which is "sticking LEGS" practice.
> 
> In other words, I am saying my footwork and sparring experience was very limited until recently. However, I'm finding out that, despite this late introduction to it, I'm doing all right. However, there is one thing that training in the Chi Sao and/or Boxing range has not prepared me for: it's dealing with kicks.
> 
> ...



Find someone who trains Taekwondo to spar with!  They will probably throw a lot of kicks your way, and will know more ways to defeat kicks.

I actually asked a question about improving sparring in the Taekwondo forum, and that is mostly kicks.  

One key thing about roundhouse kicks is you want to attack the thigh.  You can dodge the foot mainly by moving back, but it you get in close then it's less effective.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> Find someone who trains Taekwondo to spar with!  They will probably throw a lot of kicks your way, and will know more ways to defeat kicks.
> 
> I actually asked a question about improving sparring in the Taekwondo forum, and that is mostly kicks.
> 
> One key thing about roundhouse kicks is you want to attack the thigh.  You can dodge the foot mainly by moving back, but it you get in close then it's less effective.



Actually that rear roundhouse is the one I have the most success against. When I see it coming, I use my footwork to close the distance, and sometimes they don't even get a chance to land it at all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> how YOU handle kicks.


1. Below the knee kick - jam or escape.
2. Between knee to waist kick - jam and catch.
3. Above waist kick - catch.


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## CB Jones (Apr 25, 2018)

roundhouse kicks my son tries to either:

Forward at 45 degree inside the kick (toe side on a horizontal foot) or backwards at 45 degrees outside the kick (heel side)

always at an angle and never forward toward the heel side and never backwards toward the toe side.


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## wab25 (Apr 25, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> roundhouse kicks my son tries to either:
> 
> Forward at 45 degree inside the kick (toe side on a horizontal foot) or backwards at 45 degrees outside the kick (heel side)
> 
> always at an angle and never forward toward the heel side and never backwards toward the toe side.


Can you explain this a bit more? I am not able to work out what you mean by toe side and heel side.


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## CB Jones (Apr 25, 2018)

Basically if he is gonna go forward....he is moving at a 45 degree direction to where the kicking foot is pointing putting him on the inside of the kick.

If he is gonna pull away he is gonna move at a 45 degree angle  in the direction of the heel putting him on the outside of the kick.


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## Danny T (Apr 25, 2018)

A great way to learn to see kicks coming and to respond to kicks is to hold pads for a good kicker.
The kicker kicks whenever they want any kick they want and you much respond with the pads. Start slow and light power increasing the speed until you are able to catch their kicks every time. Then start jamming the kicks or getting out just enough to re-enter for counters later.
Then start sparring it again starting slow and building on the speed and timing.
Have fun.


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## Anarax (Apr 25, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I have been practicing martial arts for a long time now...since 1995. However, it was primarily in Wing Chun, where we did no sparring. All we did was Chi Sao. We never even got around to Chi Gerk, which is "sticking LEGS" practice.
> 
> In other words, I am saying my footwork and sparring experience was very limited until recently. However, I'm finding out that, despite this late introduction to it, I'm doing all right. However, there is one thing that training in the Chi Sao and/or Boxing range has not prepared me for: it's dealing with kicks.
> 
> ...


How you responds to kicks it similar to how you deal with punches. Meaning, the situation will dictate what defense would be best. The angle the attack is thrown from and where it will make contact on you will help determine how you will deal with it.

IMO, shin blocks or "shields" are great against round kicks, we used them in Karate and Kung Fu and it always effective. It's just raising your leg straight up similar to how you throw a knee. Angle your shin towards the incoming kick and point your toes downward. With straight kicks(front, side, etc) I would parry the kick while stepping off at a 45 degree angle to counter attack or throw a kick. 

Here's a video


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## yak sao (Apr 25, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> Actually that rear roundhouse is the one I have the most success against. When I see it coming, I use my footwork to close the distance, and sometimes they don't even get a chance to land it at all.



You mentioned Emin, he was my Sifu for many years and this is exactly how he taught us to deal with kicks....shut them down by exploding in.
Another tactic we'd use is intercept their kick with  a kick...either to the torso, the hip, the thigh of the kicking leg, or even the base leg.
Remember, every kick is a step, every step is a kick, so your kick closes the distance.
And if he's too fast, your kick is still in front of you as tan or bong gerk.


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## Mitlov (Apr 25, 2018)

In theory, I use distance to avoid circular kicks and move off the line to avoid linear kicks.  

In practice, I block them.  With my face.


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## JR 137 (Apr 25, 2018)

In theory -
I move straight in on roundhouse kicks.  Get close enough, and they hit you with the thigh rather than the shin or foot.  While their leg is still up, they’re pretty much defenseless.

I angle in and away from straight kicks - front, side, etc.  So if a right leg front kick comes in, I parry while stepping in at 45 degrees toward the non-kicking leg.  If the leg’s still up, they’re defenseless.

Easier said that done.

Then a good kicker adds feints/fakes in there.  Starts a lower roundhouse, then somehow gets it up by my head as I’ve parried lower.  After I block the roundhouse, it’s turned into a side kick.

I had a real tough time last night.  I sparred with a 3rd dan who’s got great kicks.  Speed, precision, and can seemingly change the kick at will.  I got decent at not falling for his tricks the last few months.  Last night, he stopped the fakes.  He caught me with every single kick, as I was thinking two and 3 kicks within the kick instead.  He kept me honest.  Actually, a little too honest.  It’s like the defense getting used to the play-action pass (fake hand-off, then throw), and getting burned when it’s actually a hand-off.

Back to square one with him.  I’ve got to get to the place where I’ll take the least damage, regardless of what he throws.  His wife is even better at kicking, so just when I get a rythym going, I typically have her next in line.


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## CB Jones (Apr 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> In theory -
> I move straight in on roundhouse kicks.  Get close enough, and they hit you with the thigh rather than the shin or foot.  While their leg is still up, they’re pretty much defenseless.
> 
> I angle in and away from straight kicks - front, side, etc.  So if a right leg front kick comes in, I parry while stepping in at 45 degrees toward the non-kicking leg.  If the leg’s still up, they’re defenseless.
> ...



That's why my son moves at an angle because it puts him in a better position and takes away the kicks.


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## jobo (Apr 25, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I have been practicing martial arts for a long time now...since 1995. However, it was primarily in Wing Chun, where we did no sparring. All we did was Chi Sao. We never even got around to Chi Gerk, which is "sticking LEGS" practice.
> 
> In other words, I am saying my footwork and sparring experience was very limited until recently. However, I'm finding out that, despite this late introduction to it, I'm doing all right. However, there is one thing that training in the Chi Sao and/or Boxing range has not prepared me for: it's dealing with kicks.
> 
> ...


You can't defend kicks you have to move out of the way or trade it for A strike/ grab of your own, fast movement and reaction are what you need,

Get a heavy bouncy dogs ball, throw it at a wall and practise catching it, When you throw it very hard,it comes back at you like a bullet, when that get easy , cut some lumps out of the ball so it takes random bounces, that OR get some one to hit tennis ball at you, that's good to


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## Buka (Apr 25, 2018)

It helps if you have some good kickers to work with. Hold pads for them, spar them. Watch their movement.....their _initial_ movement. Just like anything else, you learn to read body language. You'll see that step with the front foot when they kick, or that twitch of the hip when they kick, the bend of the knee, or the subtle shift of the hands [which most people don't realize they have]

Doesn't matter if the kicker is in constant motion before kicking, you'll still see the reads as they start to kick. What if they feint? You learn to read that movement, too. Watch fighters, especially kickers, feinting. Watch HOW they feint. When you're a kicker that throws feints, you use feints that that will make your opponent react. So you throw a movement that looks like you're coming in. And what you do when you do that is - you show initial movement used in attacking - it's like a menu. A menu of movement.

If you have access to a school that has good kickers, go watch them spar. Really _watch_ them. Don't watch them as a fan, watch them as an instructor. Spend time watching intently - watch their feet on the floor. It's like reading a book. Spend twenty minutes looking at nothing but their feet on the floor as they spar. Just watch them from the knees down.

Most important is where you focus your vision. It really doesn't matter where, you can look at their chest, their hips, their knees, their feet, whatever you like. But you look there _at all times_. If you shift your vision from one plane to another you're likely to become a heavy bag. Fighters will eat you alive if you shift your vision. Absolutely smoke you.

And you have to spar against kickers. Contact sparring. There is no real feedback if there is no physical reason not to get kicked. I don't mean kill each other, just hit each other.

And if YOU ARE A GOOD KICKER, you need to do a lot of mirror work. No, not looking at how cool your kicks are. [Oh, yes you do!] Look at your initial movement. Look at your tells. Look at your front foot when you kick. Then have your dojo mate video you on your phone when you spar. You might be stepping with that front foot when you spar, even if you aren't doing it on the bag, the pads or in the mirror. You'll be surprised how much you give away. Just like the guy you're sparring is giving things away.


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## pdg (Apr 25, 2018)

The give away is why I very rarely bother with full roundhouse kicks.

And in sparring, I tend to use a slight chamber - the same chamber whatever the kick. I can lift my knee directly in front of me and from there go for either side of my opponent's head or body, push kick, snap kick, side kick, twisting kick, hook - or it's a launch for a back kick of some description.

Being able to do that means that most opponents tend to react to the knee lifting, and I can choose which kick I want to (try to) take advantage of their reaction.

Oh, and that's using either leg, front or rear, whichever one is in front.

A kick doesn't have to be a step, it need not alter distance at all.


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## Buka (Apr 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> The give away is why I very rarely bother with full roundhouse kicks.
> 
> And in sparring, I tend to use a slight chamber - the same chamber whatever the kick. I can lift my knee directly in front of me and from there go for either side of my opponent's head or body, push kick, snap kick, side kick, twisting kick, hook - or it's a launch for a back kick of some description.
> 
> ...



Do you think you have any tells?


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## pdg (Apr 25, 2018)

Buka said:


> Do you think you have any tells?



Loads.

If I had none, every single kick would land - and they don't. Far from it.

Of course - I'm sparring against other kickers, most of whom have been doing it far longer than I have. The lower the rank of my opponent, the greater my success. Up to around the same grade as me, I'll land 80+% compared to their ~10% against me.

A fair few of the tells are necessary for the mechanics of the move - how my hips turn, how my support foot moves, what my hands are doing, where my upper body is heading for balance.

The thing I'm trying to do is work on the timing of those tells so they coincide with my opponent's reaction to the kick they thought they should expect - that and feinting the tell (which sometimes works exceptionally well).

Or, put my foot back down and punch, but that's my weak area


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## Buka (Apr 25, 2018)

I have absolutely no tells in my kicking during sparring. Because I no longer kick much. And no longer spar.

Ah, success! Yay!


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## IvanTheBrick (Apr 25, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I have been practicing martial arts for a long time now...since 1995. However, it was primarily in Wing Chun, where we did no sparring. All we did was Chi Sao. We never even got around to Chi Gerk, which is "sticking LEGS" practice.
> 
> In other words, I am saying my footwork and sparring experience was very limited until recently. However, I'm finding out that, despite this late introduction to it, I'm doing all right. However, there is one thing that training in the Chi Sao and/or Boxing range has not prepared me for: it's dealing with kicks.
> 
> ...



Don't worry. Everyone experiences weaknesses everywhere. But you will learn to adapt, especially if you know the blocks. The more you get hit, the more that the brain, body and mind will adapt to stop you from getting hit. But a key thing for this to happen is be steady on your feet. You can't expect to learn how to dodge, or use your feet to block or dodge if you can't keep your balance. Take a friend or some guy at your gym to do the same attack over and over and over at different speeds so that you find a visual queue for the attack. But remember to *find the visual queue for the attack itself, not the person attacking you. *Don't concentrate on learning the person and attempting to "feel out" when they will hit; concentrate on reacting. The best way to do this is to look directly at your opponent's eyes. In any situation, the eyes is where you want to be looking.


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## pdg (Apr 25, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> In any situation, the eyes is where you want to be looking.



Kind of, sort of, usually...

If your opponent is of the same mind, then it can work very well to flick your eyes down to the right just before you strike high left


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## Buka (Apr 25, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> Don't worry. Everyone experiences weaknesses everywhere. But you will learn to adapt, especially if you know the blocks. The more you get hit, the more that the brain, body and mind will adapt to stop you from getting hit. But a key thing for this to happen is be steady on your feet. You can't expect to learn how to dodge, or use your feet to block or dodge if you can't keep your balance. Take a friend or some guy at your gym to do the same attack over and over and over at different speeds so that you find a visual queue for the attack. But remember to *find the visual queue for the attack itself, not the person attacking you. *Don't concentrate on learning the person and attempting to "feel out" when they will hit; concentrate on reacting. The best way to do this is to look directly at your opponent's eyes. In any situation, the eyes is where you want to be looking.



The eyes lie. They lie like the dogs they are. Oh, how the eyes lie!

But I really, really like the rest of your post.


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## IvanTheBrick (Apr 25, 2018)

Buka said:


> The eyes lie. They lie like the dogs they are. Oh, how the eyes lie!
> 
> But I really, really like the rest of your post.


You don't use the eyes to try to predict where the attack comes from. You can do that if the opponent doesn't expect it, however there is an ulterior motive. I have read a book on neurology and psychology. According to it, in a very simplified manner, humans have slight psychic links to each other; before someone is about to commit to some sort of rash movement such as a strike, if you look into their eyes we "detect" this and subconsciously react that tiny bit faster to the referred movement. Though it's not noticeable, studies prove this.


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## Buka (Apr 25, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> You don't use the eyes to try to predict where the attack comes from. You can do that if the opponent doesn't expect it, however there is an ulterior motive. I have read a book on neurology and psychology. According to it, in a very simplified manner, humans have slight psychic links to each other; before someone is about to commit to some sort of rash movement such as a strike, if you look into their eyes we "detect" this and subconsciously react that tiny bit faster to the referred movement. Though it's not noticeable, studies prove this.



Ivan, buddy, I'm not trying to bully here, honest. You've read a book on neurology and psychology and I've taken two years of Physiological psychology in college [U Mass]. Big whoop. I've been teaching the Arts for a bit, too. Probably longer than your parents have been alive. But the eyes can lie, bro, they really can. You watch my eyes when we spar, I'll make you flinch nine ways to Sunday and misdirect all your movement. It's what we do when we teach kids and white belts.

And wait until you fall in love. Oh, how those eyes can lie.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I'm trying like crazy to keep remembering what Emin Boztepe said in one of his videos: "Don't think about the attack. Think about the angle." Well, a roundhouse kick comes at you in an arc, like a hook punch. Side kicks, push kicks, snap kicks, and spinning back kicks are all straight angles.


I think he meant the angle that you should take and not the angle of your opponents attack.   For example, with a round house kick you can simply move forward or to the opposite side at a 45 degree angle to help take the heat off the kick.   You can only do this if your footwork is good.

Good footwork is footwork that will allow you to go when you need it.   If your footwork causes you to "Pause" or "get set" before you actually move then you need to work on your footwork and how to position yourself so you can move at will.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Can you explain this a bit more? I am not able to work out what you mean by toe side and heel side.


Imagine the foot at the end of a side kick. Toes are pointed to inside the target arc, heel is pointed outside it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I have been practicing martial arts for a long time now...since 1995. However, it was primarily in Wing Chun, where we did no sparring. All we did was Chi Sao. We never even got around to Chi Gerk, which is "sticking LEGS" practice.
> 
> In other words, I am saying my footwork and sparring experience was very limited until recently. However, I'm finding out that, despite this late introduction to it, I'm doing all right. However, there is one thing that training in the Chi Sao and/or Boxing range has not prepared me for: it's dealing with kicks.
> 
> ...


A lot of good input already, Steve. I haven't finished reading it all, so this might be redundant.

One thought - are you practicing responses to kicks in drills (with a partner who has decent kicks)? You have to build the response over time. I bring this up because you mentioned the slow-motion sense of seeing it coming, but not responding. That sounds like your brain processing and looking for something to work with, and simply not coming up with a response in time. Drills shorten that process - that's what we really mean when we refer to "muscle memory". Drills also increase pattern recognition, which is useful if the drills use a kick set-up that is similar enough to what you'll see in sparring. Best advice for this is to pick someone whose kicks give you trouble, and work responses to that particular person's kicks as a starting point. Over time, you'll want to generalize that by finding people with similar-but-not-identical kicks to drill against.

Even if you just made some up (somebody made up every response, so you're likely to come up with some of the usual ones on your own), and practiced them against kicks, you'd have a set of weapons that would give you SOME response. Of course, if you can pick up some ideas that work for others and fit the movement patterns of WC, you'll be a step ahead in that process - but you'll still need to drill them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> In any situation, the eyes is where you want to be looking.


There are several schools of thought on this, and I've not found any great evidence one of them is more right than the other.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> You don't use the eyes to try to predict where the attack comes from. You can do that if the opponent doesn't expect it, however there is an ulterior motive. I have read a book on neurology and psychology. According to it, in a very simplified manner, humans have slight psychic links to each other; before someone is about to commit to some sort of rash movement such as a strike, if you look into their eyes we "detect" this and subconsciously react that tiny bit faster to the referred movement. Though it's not noticeable, studies prove this.


That might tell you a strike's coming (and that's a very big "might" - people's physical communications are more variable than that), but that can be more than offset by being misled (not just uninformed) as to where the strike is coming from and going to.


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2018)

Op. It is because your entries are crap. You are probably covering too much distance.

So they will hang back forcing you to make that step. And when you do they just nail you on the way in.

And possibly on the way out as well.

So you get caught mid hop. Which is why you can see the kick but can't move away from it.

Hang back let them come forwards then enter. With both of you moving forwards that reactionary gap is shortened.


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## Buka (Apr 25, 2018)

Makes no difference where you look, just don't switch levels of where you're looking. It takes too long for your vision to adjust levels, even against a slower fighter.

But....I know a few folks that if you're watching their eyes, looking at them or into them, it will shake you up badly, especially the first time. They have scary eyes. Man, I would I love to have that.


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## marques (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> (...)
> In my mind, I have an idea what would work. Now it is just a matter of testing that in reality. What I mean is this: whatever angle they use, you use the opposite. So if someone comes at you with the arc of a roundhouse kick, then you step straight into them. If they use a push kick, then you use what I call "zoning" or "angling" footwork so you (1) evade the straight attack and then (2) can come in at them from an angle.
> 
> I know talking about it on a forum only does so much good, because I cannot test it here! LOL Still, I just wanted to write it down and see if it made sense when I read it. Plus, by sharing it with you folks, I can get feedback and/or how YOU handle kicks.



A few things came to my mind:

- Great kickers are great kickers. No matter what, you suffer.  (But let's assume we're dealing with 'just' good kickers.)

- Better absorbing a weak kick than avoiding perfectly a kick a being finished 1/4 seconds later by another technique. And 'step straight into them' may avoid a strong kick, but be aware it may expose you to punches as well.

What I try to do:

- From each opponent's stance only a few kicks are dangerous (if any). Example: From a sideways stance, a side kick (or spinning kick) is more likely and faster, from a more squared stance a front kick is more likely and faster. We can prepare in advance. 

- Each kick needs an exact distance and angle to have the maximum power. Constantly changing (slightly) distance and angles (footwork) is a pre-emptive defense. So...

- Never stopping, so they need to be constantly calculating time and distance. Or throwing shitty kicks. I don't need to move fast. I couldn't anyway. 

- Then, I try to counter kicks. If it works, they will not be willing to throw as much kicks.

- Against spinning kicks, I short the distance or front kick the ***/hips. Guessing where he is going to kick and THEN to defend was no good for me.

Another idea:

- Being you a WC guy (short distance fighter, isn't it?) keeping a short distance / pressure will favour you and will mess with any opportunity for a good kick. If you control his/her balance, you don't need to worry about kicks any more. The issue is when you have a Thai boxer or grappler in front of you... (Again, reading stances may give you a gift, if you don't know your opponent in advance.)

To finish, great kickers are hell. If you block, you get hurt. If you run away you get tired. If we can see them, because they can be ingeniously set up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Op. It is because your entries are crap. You are probably covering too much distance.
> 
> So they will hang back forcing you to make that step. And when you do they just nail you on the way in.
> 
> ...


I hadn't thought of that, and I actually do that to people. I'll have to remember that for future training.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think he meant the angle that you should take and not the angle of your opponents attack.   For example, with a round house kick you can simply move forward or to the opposite side at a 45 degree angle to help take the heat off the kick.   You can only do this if your footwork is good.
> 
> Good footwork is footwork that will allow you to go when you need it.   If your footwork causes you to "Pause" or "get set" before you actually move then you need to work on your footwork and how to position yourself so you can move at will.



No, in the video where he says this, he is definitely talking about their angle of attack because he compares how a jab and side kick are both straight. A hook punch and roundhouse are both curved angles, etc.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

Danny T said:


> A great way to learn to see kicks coming and to respond to kicks is to hold pads for a good kicker.
> The kicker kicks whenever they want any kick they want and you much respond with the pads. Start slow and light power increasing the speed until you are able to catch their kicks every time. Then start jamming the kicks or getting out just enough to re-enter for counters later.
> Then start sparring it again starting slow and building on the speed and timing.
> Have fun.



Yes, progress training. This is what I aim for, always, not just with myself but with the people who ask me to teach them. They say, "Why are we learning how to punch in this static stance?" So I explain: start static first to get the motion, add in some dynamic movement and maybe even some level of unpredictability, and then turn it all loose in Chi Sao/sparring.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> roundhouse kicks my son tries to either:
> 
> Forward at 45 degree inside the kick (toe side on a horizontal foot) or backwards at 45 degrees outside the kick (heel side)
> 
> always at an angle and never forward toward the heel side and never backwards toward the toe side.



I am having trouble visualizing it...ugh, damn message boards!!! LOL


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

Anarax said:


> How you responds to kicks it similar to how you deal with punches. Meaning, the situation will dictate what defense would be best. The angle the attack is thrown from and where it will make contact on you will help determine how you will deal with it.
> 
> IMO, shin blocks or "shields" are great against round kicks, we used them in Karate and Kung Fu and it always effective. It's just raising your leg straight up similar to how you throw a knee. Angle your shin towards the incoming kick and point your toes downward. With straight kicks(front, side, etc) I would parry the kick while stepping off at a 45 degree angle to counter attack or throw a kick.
> 
> Here's a video



I see what you mean with the parry. I try to keep hands out of the kicking picture, but then again...if you parry with the hand, it's not like you are going to leave your hand down for the rest of the sparring round. I will work it in there.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

yak sao said:


> You mentioned Emin, he was my Sifu for many years and this is exactly how he taught us to deal with kicks....shut them down by exploding in.
> Another tactic we'd use is intercept their kick with  a kick...either to the torso, the hip, the thigh of the kicking leg, or even the base leg.
> Remember, every kick is a step, every step is a kick, so your kick closes the distance.
> And if he's too fast, your kick is still in front of you as tan or bong gerk.



Yes, for sure...intercept with a kick. I have always loved that technique when I watch it, but...pulling it off is a b*tch! LOL

He was your Sifu? Shoot, man...lucky. Does he still do seminars anywhere? Maybe not in the States, but over in Europe?


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> In theory -
> I move straight in on roundhouse kicks.  Get close enough, and they hit you with the thigh rather than the shin or foot.  While their leg is still up, they’re pretty much defenseless.
> 
> I angle in and away from straight kicks - front, side, etc.  So if a right leg front kick comes in, I parry while stepping in at 45 degrees toward the non-kicking leg.  If the leg’s still up, they’re defenseless.
> ...



Yes, you are saying what I was thinking too: use the opposite angle. So if they throw a curved kick, step straight in. If they throw a straight kick, you can use a pendulum step to get outside. Or just a side step. I'm playing around with it.

Awesome ideas, y'all!


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

Buka said:


> It helps if you have some good kickers to work with. Hold pads for them, spar them. Watch their movement.....their _initial_ movement. Just like anything else, you learn to read body language. You'll see that step with the front foot when they kick, or that twitch of the hip when they kick, the bend of the knee, or the subtle shift of the hands [which most people don't realize they have]
> 
> Doesn't matter if the kicker is in constant motion before kicking, you'll still see the reads as they start to kick. What if they feint? You learn to read that movement, too. Watch fighters, especially kickers, feinting. Watch HOW they feint. When you're a kicker that throws feints, you use feints that that will make your opponent react. So you throw a movement that looks like you're coming in. And what you do when you do that is - you show initial movement used in attacking - it's like a menu. A menu of movement.
> 
> ...



The big trick in what you say occurs in your third paragraph: "If you have access to a school with good kickers..."

'Round these parts, we have a lot of Tae Kwon Do schools. Most of them are run by the same people, and it is more of a place where people take their little ones so they get some kind of physical activity. So you have a class full of people kicking, but it's people that come up to your waist. LOL

Still, the idea is sound. I will browse around and find a place that has folks more my size, who are really trying to get good at kicks.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> Don't worry. Everyone experiences weaknesses everywhere. But you will learn to adapt, especially if you know the blocks. The more you get hit, the more that the brain, body and mind will adapt to stop you from getting hit. But a key thing for this to happen is be steady on your feet. You can't expect to learn how to dodge, or use your feet to block or dodge if you can't keep your balance. Take a friend or some guy at your gym to do the same attack over and over and over at different speeds so that you find a visual queue for the attack. But remember to *find the visual queue for the attack itself, not the person attacking you. *Don't concentrate on learning the person and attempting to "feel out" when they will hit; concentrate on reacting. The best way to do this is to look directly at your opponent's eyes. In any situation, the eyes is where you want to be looking.



My balance is solid, even in movement. I think it's mainly the footwork where the issue is. One thing I should have said in the beginning is that my goal is to stay away from using HANDS to block FEET. I want to rely on one of three things: (1) distance to move out of range of the kick, (2) footwork to bridge the distance and cut the kick's power, or (3) developing good enough reflexes to stop a kick WITH a kick.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I am having trouble visualizing it...ugh, damn message boards!!! LOL


Okay, imagine someone holding up their leg as if at the end of a side kick (so foot is horizontal to floor) directly in front of you. Note that the kick countered is a round kick (though the foot image I used is from a side kick) He's describing a digonal - either entering to that person's front (toe-side) at 45 degrees, or retreating to that person's heel-side. That avoids running into the kick (entering to heel-side) or trying to outrun it (retreating to toe-side).

I wish message boards had a simple line-drawing tool. It would make these descriptions easier.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> A lot of good input already, Steve. I haven't finished reading it all, so this might be redundant.
> 
> One thought - are you practicing responses to kicks in drills (with a partner who has decent kicks)? You have to build the response over time. I bring this up because you mentioned the slow-motion sense of seeing it coming, but not responding. That sounds like your brain processing and looking for something to work with, and simply not coming up with a response in time. Drills shorten that process - that's what we really mean when we refer to "muscle memory". Drills also increase pattern recognition, which is useful if the drills use a kick set-up that is similar enough to what you'll see in sparring. Best advice for this is to pick someone whose kicks give you trouble, and work responses to that particular person's kicks as a starting point. Over time, you'll want to generalize that by finding people with similar-but-not-identical kicks to drill against.
> 
> Even if you just made some up (somebody made up every response, so you're likely to come up with some of the usual ones on your own), and practiced them against kicks, you'd have a set of weapons that would give you SOME response. Of course, if you can pick up some ideas that work for others and fit the movement patterns of WC, you'll be a step ahead in that process - but you'll still need to drill them.



I would love to do this, practice responses with drills, but I go to this sparring class at a place called Chinese Martial Arts Academy. What I mean by that is, the drills we do are picked by the instructor. Sometimes he asks what people would like to work on, but other times he already has a plan. However, I have talked to him about private lessons where we work on nothing but kick defense.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

marques said:


> - Being you a WC guy (short distance fighter, isn't it?) keeping a short distance / pressure will favour you and will mess with any opportunity for a good kick. If you control his/her balance, you don't need to worry about kicks any more. The issue is when you have a Thai boxer or grappler in front of you... (Again, reading stances may give you a gift, if you don't know your opponent in advance.)
> 
> To finish, great kickers are hell. If you block, you get hurt. If you run away you get tired. If we can see them, because they can be ingeniously set up.



Yes, I am a WC guy. Well, not too sure about the "guy" part sometimes.

At any rate, footwork...footwork...footwork. I am quickly learning this is one thing whose importance transcends ALL martial arts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> My balance is solid, even in movement. I think it's mainly the footwork where the issue is. One thing I should have said in the beginning is that my goal is to stay away from using HANDS to block FEET. I want to rely on one of three things: (1) distance to move out of range of the kick, (2) footwork to bridge the distance and cut the kick's power, or (3) developing good enough reflexes to stop a kick WITH a kick.


I would say don't eliminate a tool by not learning it. Learn to use your hands in this defense, as well, then work to reduce the need for them.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, imagine someone holding up their leg as if at the end of a side kick (so foot is horizontal to floor) directly in front of you. Note that the kick countered is a round kick (though the foot image I used is from a side kick) He's describing a digonal - either entering to that person's front (toe-side) at 45 degrees, or retreating to that person's heel-side. That avoids running into the kick (entering to heel-side) or trying to outrun it (retreating to toe-side).
> 
> I wish message boards had a simple line-drawing tool. It would make these descriptions easier.



There is always MS Paint. ;-)

I have played around with that actually. Let's say the opponent and I are both in a right-side forward stance. They come in with a side kick with their front (right) leg. I can either step to my right, or my left. However, for some reason I am thinking the step to the left could not be just a side step. I might have to do a pendulum-type step where I swing my back (left) leg around first, so I am switching from southpaw to orthodox.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I would say don't eliminate a tool by not learning it. Learn to use your hands in this defense, as well, then work to reduce the need for them.



Yeah, everything is a trade-off. That was pointed out to me recently. The teacher said, "Well, yeah you may have one hand to play with, but they are also down one foot!" For some reason, I never thought of that.

It's like when you go to the store to look for a certain product, and you miss it because you are looking for it. Sometimes things are obvious and seem like common sense, but as I have heard someone say, "Common sense isn't all that common."


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I would love to do this, practice responses with drills, but I go to this sparring class at a place called Chinese Martial Arts Academy. What I mean by that is, the drills we do are picked by the instructor. Sometimes he asks what people would like to work on, but other times he already has a plan. However, I have talked to him about private lessons where we work on nothing but kick defense.


See if one of the people would meet up to work outside class a bit. The class is a good thing, and like the rest of us you need to put some extra focus where you personally need it. That's going to take time outside classes, usually.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> See if one of the people would meet up to work outside class a bit. The class is a good thing, and like the rest of us you need to put some extra focus where you personally need it. That's going to take time outside classes, usually.



I have put the word out there. So far, no takers. But I am DETERMINED to nail this down. It will not elude me.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

One other thing I wanted to add: I cannot find the original comment, but someone said stepping into a kick might mean they are setting me up for punches. I have certainly had that happen, but I have been okay because most of my training has been against punches.

Plus, not for nothing, but right now I am not worried about what they MIGHT do after the kick. I mean, for all I know, they could drop to all fours and start barking like a dog. LOL For now, I want to solve THIS problem before I move on to the next.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> There is always MS Paint. ;-)
> 
> I have played around with that actually. Let's say the opponent and I are both in a right-side forward stance. They come in with a side kick with their front (right) leg. I can either step to my right, or my left. However, for some reason I am thinking the step to the left could not be just a side step. I might have to do a pendulum-type step where I swing my back (left) leg around first, so I am switching from southpaw to orthodox.


The feeling to me is that the left-side, side step leaves you hanging out in the middle too long and staying in range of the strike. When you side-step right, you're actually staying a small amount further back (because you are removing the forward foot for the step). So I'd be unlikely to try to move left from that stance - it'd be like stepping across their target line. That might be how most people feel, or it might just be the result of the more circular movement patterns in Aikido.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The feeling to me is that the left-side, side step leaves you hanging out in the middle too long and staying in range of the strike. When you side-step right, you're actually staying a small amount further back (because you are removing the forward foot for the step). So I'd be unlikely to try to move left from that stance - it'd be like stepping across their target line. That might be how most people feel, or it might just be the result of the more circular movement patterns in Aikido.



Well, I think the key might be to not just do a linear side step, but to also go a bit forward, so I wind up crowding them.

Nothing would beat practicing on a person. LOL


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> One other thing I wanted to add: I cannot find the original comment, but someone said stepping into a kick might mean they are setting me up for punches. I have certainly had that happen, but I have been okay because most of my training has been against punches.
> 
> Plus, not for nothing, but right now I am not worried about what they MIGHT do after the kick. I mean, for all I know, they could drop to all fours and start barking like a dog. LOL For now, I want to solve THIS problem before I move on to the next.


I'm less worried (probably less worried than I should be, even) about the punches they are setting me up for, too. In my case, it's because when I enter, I'm using their kick to set them up for some punches of my own. If I have my timing right, I have the advantage, even if we both go for punches - they have to deal with that kick they're throwing. Of course, if the kick is a feint (and I don't read it), I'm stepping right into their trap.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> The give away is why I very rarely bother with full roundhouse kicks.
> 
> *And in sparring, I tend to use a slight chamber - the same chamber whatever the kick. I can lift my knee directly in front of me and from there go for either side of my opponent's head or body, push kick, snap kick, side kick, twisting kick, hook - or it's a launch for a back kick of some description.*
> 
> ...





pdg said:


> Loads.
> 
> If I had none, every single kick would land - and they don't. Far from it.
> 
> ...



Then you need to work on your beginning.  Just raise you leg up high.  Don't begin your actual kick until after that.  As already mentioned, spend time looking at your kicks.  It sounds like you are making moves as you raise your leg, that telegraph what is coming.  You shouldn't make any move to further the kick until you knee is high.

As to defenses, there are many.  Google for Hapkido kick defenses.  Problem is you may see some sloppy techniques, or with good ones, not realize what is really being done and think it would be ineffective.  I don't have time to look at all, but 



seems to have some viable kick defenses if you can figure out what is being done and what is just flash.  Also some are slow so you can see some telegraphing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Then you need to work on your beginning.  Just raise you leg up high.  Don't begin your actual kick until after that.  As already mentioned, spend time looking at your kicks.  It sounds like you are making moves as you raise your leg, that telegraph what is coming.  You shouldn't make any move to further the kick until you knee is high.
> 
> As to defenses, there are many.  Google for Hapkido kick defenses.  Problem is you may see some sloppy techniques, or with good ones, not realize what is really being done and think it would be ineffective.  I don't have time to look at all, but
> 
> ...


Some basics in there (evade and block), and some movie choreography.


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## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Then you need to work on your beginning. Just raise you leg up high. Don't begin your actual kick until after that. As already mentioned, spend time looking at your kicks. It sounds like you are making moves as you raise your leg, that telegraph what is coming. You shouldn't make any move to further the kick until you knee is high.



That's what I'm aiming for, and mostly getting.

Knee comes up, they react, I select a kick based on that reaction.

As I work with people with much more experience they have also developed speed, so it goes more like:

Knee comes up, they react, I select a kick based on that reaction, they perform a secondary reaction as the kick is in progress...

Sometimes I'm able to read the secondary reaction too and turn say a mid level turning kick into a high one, or a snap kick into a twisting kick.

It's certainly not an overnight process though, it's a constant evolution based on experience and observations.


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## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Some basics in there (evade and block), and some movie choreography.



I especially liked the "catch a side kick and throw it down then use their knee as a step to climb up and perform a neck break".

Some of the stuff shown might work, some against a slow sloppy kicker who telegraphs a lot - but a fair proportion just wouldn't.


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## JR 137 (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, you are saying what I was thinking too: use the opposite angle. So if they throw a curved kick, step straight in. If they throw a straight kick, you can use a pendulum step to get outside. Or just a side step. I'm playing around with it.
> 
> Awesome ideas, y'all!


If a pendulum step is an angle and still going forward, then yes, that’s what I do.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 26, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> If a pendulum step is an angle and still going forward, then yes, that’s what I do.



IT is one of those things that is a pain to describe in words. Visuals are so much better!


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> I especially liked the "catch a side kick and throw it down then use their knee as a step to climb up and perform a neck break".
> 
> Some of the stuff shown might work, some against a slow sloppy kicker who telegraphs a lot - but a fair proportion just wouldn't.


Agreed. The "kick defense" techniques in NGA fall into that category, too. They'd work if the kick is sloppy or if you just get lucky and end up in that situation (one is actually a nice answer to "How did this foot end up in my hand, and what do I do with it, now?"). They are useful for what they are (IMO, mostly to get folks more comfortable with facing kicks when they aren't in sparring mode), but are largely replaced over time by what works in sparring.


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## IvanTheBrick (Apr 26, 2018)

Buka said:


> Ivan, buddy, I'm not trying to bully here, honest. You've read a book on neurology and psychology and I've taken two years of Physiological psychology in college [U Mass]. Big whoop. I've been teaching the Arts for a bit, too. Probably longer than your parents have been alive. But the eyes can lie, bro, they really can. You watch my eyes when we spar, I'll make you flinch nine ways to Sunday and misdirect all your movement. It's what we do when we teach kids and white belts.
> 
> And wait until you fall in love. Oh, how those eyes can lie.


>Not trying to be a bully
>Criticises me though I never actually disagreed with you
Ok lol


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Some basics in there (evade and block), *and some movie choreography*.



How did you manage to notice that?


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> That's what I'm aiming for, and mostly getting.
> 
> Knee comes up, they react, I select a kick based on that reaction.
> 
> ...



Actually it sounds like you are doing better that you implied in the first post.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> I especially liked the "catch a side kick and throw it down then use their knee as a step to climb up and perform a neck break".
> 
> Some of the stuff shown might work, some against a slow sloppy kicker who telegraphs a lot - but a fair proportion just wouldn't.



Interesting you mention that.  There is a very good reason that defense wouldn't likely progress to standing on the knee.  It happens so quickly most wouldn't notice.  The first defense is a knuckle strike to a pressure point just above the ankle bone.  It is unlikely the attacker would be able to put his foot down and establish a strong enough stance to make a stair step.  More likely the defender would fall if he tried that.

Before you discount that down to "some of the stuff might work," try it.  Oh, you do have to have speed to go along with it of course.  And if you don't know what you are doing, like striking a pressure point, don't even try.

I will agree that I don't like the high cross blocks.  But practiced enough, I think they would work.


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## Martial D (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> My balance is solid, even in movement. I think it's mainly the footwork where the issue is. One thing I should have said in the beginning is that my goal is to stay away from using HANDS to block FEET. I want to rely on one of three things: (1) distance to move out of range of the kick, (2) footwork to bridge the distance and cut the kick's power, or (3) developing good enough reflexes to stop a kick WITH a kick.



If you are limiting yourself to these three things that might explain some of your difficulty.If the kick is following a straight line and is above the waist(front snap, teep, side, back-side) its easiest to parry with the arm and step to the outside. If its a round kick above the waist and you cant escape it(much of the time), its easiest to dig the elbow into the hip and brace, like you would for a body hook. Your results might vary, but these are my go-tos.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> How did you manage to notice that?


I'm highly perceptive like that. It's a natural talent.


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## Martial D (Apr 26, 2018)

@wingchun100



Martial D said:


> If you are limiting yourself to these three things that might explain some of your difficulty.If the kick is following a straight line and is above the waist(front snap, teep, side, back-side) its easiest to parry with the arm and step to the outside. If its a round kick above the waist and you cant escape it(much of the time), its easiest to dig the elbow into the hip and brace, like you would for a body hook. Your results might vary, but these are my go-tos.



Also, since you are a WC guy like me, the kick parry is basically gaun sau.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Op. It is because your entries are crap. You are probably covering too much distance.
> 
> So they will hang back forcing you to make that step. And when you do they just nail you on the way in.
> 
> ...



In the Hapkido I learned, we are very defensive, although we know how to attack as well.  But we generally wait until we are attacked and then react to the attack.  But we are normally moving in when we counter attack.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> My balance is solid, even in movement. I think it's mainly the footwork where the issue is. One thing I should have said in the beginning is that my goal is to* stay away from using HANDS to block FEET*. I want to rely on one of three things: (1) distance to move out of range of the kick, (2) footwork to bridge the distance and cut the kick's power, or (3) developing good enough reflexes to stop a kick WITH a kick.



I did that once in TKD.  A strong brown belt kicker was just a little fast and I was just a moment slow in picking a defense; didn't close my hand into a fist.  Mr. Rhee looked at me like he didn't believe I was one of his students and told that was a dangerous way to block.  He was a moment too slow in saying that because my mildly jammed fingers had already communicated that to me.  

Moving back is a good defense but be careful of your attacker learning to expect that and following you with a series of kicks.

Stopping a kick with a kick tends to devastate an opponent because it normally attacks a knee joint.  But you have to be fast and accurate.


----------



## yak sao (Apr 26, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> Does he still do seminars anywhere? Maybe not in the States, but over in Europe?




Haven't been in touch with him for several years but I'm sure he's still making the circuit.
I'm sure if you did a Google search for ebmas you would come up with something.


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## Ryan_ (Apr 26, 2018)

jobo said:


> You can't defend kicks you have to move out of the way or trade it for A strike/ grab of your own, fast movement and reaction are what you need,
> 
> Get a heavy bouncy dogs ball, throw it at a wall and practise catching it, When you throw it very hard,it comes back at you like a bullet, when that get easy , cut some lumps out of the ball so it takes random bounces, that OR get some one to hit tennis ball at you, that's good to


Choi Kwang Do had a technique to defend against kicks, however I'm not sure how effective it would be for kicks such as roundhouse kicks, but regular front kicks can definitely be defended against. 
Although, I do agree evading the kick would make more sense in most scenarios because it would be easier to train to evade the kick than to block it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> most scenarios because it would be easier to train to evade the kick than to block it.


Knowing how to block a kick is critical.  It's easier to block than to evade.  Most people can naturally put their arms up faster than they can move the distance required to evade a kick.  As humans most of us are hardwired to put our hand out to stop stuff from hitting us.  You only need to look a toddlers to see this in the works at a young.

Most people probably get kick while in the process of thinking about doing something, or in the process of actually trying to do something.  If you have the luxury to draw out kicks then it makes sense to evade.  TKD people busted up all the time simply because they don't block the kick.

Sometimes you can evade and sometimes you can't.


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## jobo (Apr 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Knowing how to block a kick is critical.  It's easier to block than to evade.  Most people can naturally put their arms up faster than they can move the distance required to evade a kick.  As humans most of us are hardwired to put our hand out to stop stuff from hitting us.  You only need to look a toddlers to see this in the works at a young.
> 
> Most people probably get kick while in the process of thinking about doing something, or in the process of actually trying to do something.  If you have the luxury to draw out kicks then it makes sense to evade.  TKD people busted up all the time simply because they don't block the kick.
> 
> Sometimes you can evade and sometimes you can't.


I think you can always evade, if there is any sort of MaTc in speed and reactions of the kicker and kickee, that's kicks traveling a long way


----------



## jobo (Apr 26, 2018)

Ryan_ said:


> Choi Kwang Do had a technique to defend against kicks, however I'm not sure how effective it would be for kicks such as roundhouse kicks, but regular front kicks can definitely be defended against.
> Although, I do agree evading the kick would make more sense in most scenarios because it would be easier to train to evade the kick than to block it.


Well yes, if it's some naMby  RIb tickeler, they yes block it. If the kick is likely to cut you in half, then it might be better to take it on your arms than the intended target, but it's going to really hurt


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2018)

jobo said:


> I think you can always evade, if there is any sort of MaTc in speed and reactions of the kicker and kickee, that's kicks traveling a long way


Kicks travel fast and they can be deceptive, which is why you see a lot of people getting caught with them.  Sometimes  you can evade and sometimes you can't.  If you can't evade because you see the kick coming too late, then what's your next best option?


----------



## jobo (Apr 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Kicks travel fast and they can be deceptive, which is why you see a lot of people getting caught with them.  Sometimes  you can evade and sometimes you can't.  If you can't evade because you see the kick coming too late, then what's your next best option?


Well you getting kicked then, there no way round it, if you take the kick on your arm, you are still getting kicked


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## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Actually it sounds like you are doing better that you implied in the first post.



The thread's first post wasn't mine...



oftheherd1 said:


> Before you discount that down to "some of the stuff might work," try it. Oh, you do have to have speed to go along with it of course. And if you don't know what you are doing, like striking a pressure point, don't even try



I can only speak from my experience, and that shows that stepping/jumping back is a low success manoeuvre.

With regard to the defence shown (cup the kicking foot and strike the ankle area while stepping backwards) I don't think it would work against an experienced kicker.

One of the things we train to do is retract with speed and remake the kick while skipping the supporting leg toward the target, so stepping back would likely mean you just get kicked further away.


Another defence shown was to catch the kick and sweep the supporting leg.

During this evening's sparring I deliberately telegraphed a turning kick because I knew the guy I was against would grab it - as he caught I kicked his other side with my other leg...

I'm not saying none of the techniques would ever work because some would against an awful lot of people, and I'm not saying I'm a fantastic kicker - but I reckon I could defeat the majority of those defences.


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## Ryan_ (Apr 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Knowing how to block a kick is critical.  It's easier to block than to evade.  Most people can naturally put their arms up faster than they can move the distance required to evade a kick.  As humans most of us are hardwired to put our hand out to stop stuff from hitting us.  You only need to look a toddlers to see this in the works at a young.
> 
> Most people probably get kick while in the process of thinking about doing something, or in the process of actually trying to do something.  If you have the luxury to draw out kicks then it makes sense to evade.  TKD people busted up all the time simply because they don't block the kick.
> 
> Sometimes you can evade and sometimes you can't.


Well I think everything is situational but I'm not sure I would agree when you say it would be easier to block. Quite often - at least from my experience - it would be more possible to move outside of the range of the kick (or move out then step in in a close combat Stance) 


jobo said:


> Well yes, if it's some naMby  RIb tickeler, they yes block it. If the kick is likely to cut you in half, then it might be better to take it on your arms than the intended target, but it's going to really hurt


For most people while they are kicking (let's say an average person attacking you on Street) they will be relatively easy to throw off balance. (which I have personally needed to do before)


----------



## Martial D (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> The thread's first post wasn't mine...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. Fancy blocks don't work. Not for punches, not for kicks. Not from people that are good strikers.

Unless , I suppose, you happen to have supernatural reflexes. Time and Time again studies have shown reaction time is slower than initiation time by orders of magnitude.

Parries/covers combined with lateral movements are the highest % for normal humans like me.


----------



## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Fancy blocks don't work. Not for punches



I clicked agree, but I must take exception to this one part.

My punches are so shockingly bad that you could go and make a coffee, read a newspaper, then still have time to make that 13 stage blocking move work


----------



## Buka (Apr 26, 2018)

You know what kickers hate? They hate to get jammed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 26, 2018)

Buka said:


> You know what kickers hate? They hate to get jammed.


A kicker hates that you

- catch his kicking leg,
- sweep his rooting leg, and
- drop you knee into his groin while he is on the ground.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2018)

I'm off to bed for a long sleep... when looking through the list of new posts I read the title of this thread as *'Sparring and my difficulty against kids'.* I was sat thinking one should spar against kids smaller and younger than you, always the way to win........


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## Martial D (Apr 26, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - drop you knee into his groin while he is on the ground.



So do punchers, grapplers, and anyone with a Y chromosone.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well you getting kicked then, there no way round it, if you take the kick on your arm, you are still getting kicked


Take a video of someone kicking at your head.  Block the first kick with your arm.  Allow the second kick to land on your face.   Then let me know what you discovered.


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## jobo (Apr 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Take a video of someone kicking at your head.  Block the first kick with your arm.  Allow the second kick to land on your face.   Then let me know what you discovered.


If I have time to block i have time to move, I only have rollback 6"


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## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

jobo said:


> If I have time to block i have time to move, I only have rollback 6"



Even though I seriously doubt you could accelerate the mass of your body as quickly as you move your arm into blocking position, there's still a flaw in the logic.

You roll back 6", I still kick you.

That's well within range of changing a side piercing kick (using the 'footsword') into a side thrusting kick (using ball of the foot) - or switching a turning kick using the lower shin into hitting with the instep or flicking to the ball of the foot - or making a push kick into a snap kick.


----------



## jobo (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Even though I seriously doubt you could accelerate the mass of your body as quickly as you move your arm into blocking position, there's still a flaw in the logic.
> 
> You roll back 6", I still kick you.
> 
> That's well within range of changing a side piercing kick (using the 'footsword') into a side thrusting kick (using ball of the foot) - or switching a turning kick using the lower shin into hitting with the instep or flicking to the ball of the foot - or making a push kick into a snap kick.


If you change the kick i can change the range ( again), so you really think I can't move backwards faster that you can get a kick to head height ?


----------



## Prostar (Apr 26, 2018)

I haven't read all the posts so forgive me if I duplicate another.

It took me a few years to find that ALL techniques are from point A to point B.  Don't be point B.  Easier said than done but there are some ways to get to it.

First, note that just about everyone has a count.  Say what?  Watch the others when they are sparring.  They square off, the anxiety builds and they have to attack.  Most people do this to a consistent time.  If you watch them square off and you start counting you will find that they move on the same count.  If your opponent has a count of 5, then move on 4 1/2.  It is fun to watch the look on people's faces when it looks like you are reading their minds.


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## pdg (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you change the kick i can change the range ( again), so you really think I can't move backwards faster that you can get a kick to head height ?



The changes of kick I described were simply a change of foot position, so yes, I think I probably can.

I'm not saying it's certain either way - I can avoid some kicks, other people can avoid some of mine. It's a valid technique but not one that should be relied on to the exclusion of anything else, such as blocking. 

But it's all theoretical on here - you can say you can avoid, I can say a portion of my training is how to deal with someone avoiding so I can very likely succeed. Nobody can prove either of us right or wrong.

(NOT a challenge) It'd be really entertaining to find out which of us would have the higher success rate.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you change the kick i can change the range ( again), so you really think I can't move backwards faster that you can get a kick to head height ?



If you can you are facing off against sub par kickers.

If you watch a pro Thai fight those guys can't always manage to move.


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## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

Well I'm prepared to acce


drop bear said:


> If you can you are facing off against sub par kickers.
> 
> If you watch a pro Thai fight those guys can't always manage to move.


T there are people much much better than me, but I'm not LIKLely to come up against a pro fighter, Putting my hand up to try and block a pro MT  fighter is also going to end badly,so it's a meWt point, we can safely assume I'm going to get beaten up sooner or later, probably sooner no matter what I do


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## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> The changes of kick I described were simply a change of foot position, so yes, I think I probably can.
> 
> I'm not saying it's certain either way - I can avoid some kicks, other people can avoid some of mine. It's a valid technique but not one that should be relied on to the exclusion of anything else, such as blocking.
> 
> ...


Just to make sure we are discussing the same thing, my point is if you can block you can move, not that you can defend ALL kicks thrown by anybody, that would be silly. Blocking is a high risk stratetgy, you likely to have to hand ar! Wrecked, it may be better than a kick to the face, but it's still not good and no where near as beneficial as not being in range. If there is no sting in the kick blocking or perhaps better TAKing the kick so you can grab the leg is ok, 

Throwing kicks much above thigh height is also high risk, having you leg grabbed is a real possibility, that doesn't matter if you in the dojo, it does if they are going to dump you on the floor and stamp on you. Even with out the grab you now stood on one leg which makes you very vulnerable to a counter if your kick lands or not.

I'm happIly spend half an hour letting to try and kick me whilst I move, if your top end that may be painful but as you have admitted your kicks ARNt great I'LL risk it.

It works very well against people at my dojo, they kick i move, I take the standing leg or just dump them over, one of the instructors get quite cross when I dump him on the floor, 

My i don't have to just move backwards 6  " I can move a foot, backwards sideways, backwards and side wards or just forward. Just standing still whilst they kick me doesn't sound sensible, though that is what' they reach quite a lot in ma


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you change the kick i can change the range ( again), so you really think I can't move backwards faster that you can get a kick to head height ?


A good kicker (not me) can make that change in the same time the original kick would have landed. So, while you have time to move back 6", in that same time they are making the adjustment for that 6" move (without creating more time for you to move). In my experience, it takes a really good kicker to do this and still deliver an effective kick, but those people are dangerous for those of us (yeah, I'm one, too) who use that slip back to evade kicks.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> The thread's first post wasn't mine...
> 
> 
> 
> I can only speak from my experience, and that shows that stepping/jumping back is a low success manoeuvre.



I agree it shouldn't be your constant goto defense.

QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898538, member: 38938"]With regard to the defence shown (cup the kicking foot and strike the ankle area while stepping backwards) I don't think it would work against an experienced kicker.[/QUOTE]

That is why I said it is very difficult to look at grappling videos and know what is going on and what you need to do to make it work.  What is happening is that he is trapping the foot.  I didn't learn it that way, just to step back and simultaneously strike.  A lot of what you are seeing, just like a lot of videos, is slowed down for you to (hopefully) learn.  Moves are slowed down and done sequentially for demonstration and learning purposes (like forms for instance).  The goal is to be fast and make some of the moves simultaneously so your opponent has less chance, or simply cannot react.  From your comments, either don't try to learn, or know you can't just try it (or most moves) one time, decide it won't work, and tell the world what a bad move it is..

QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898538, member: 38938"]One of the things we train to do is retract with speed and remake the kick while skipping the supporting leg toward the target, so stepping back would likely mean you just get kicked further away.[/QUOTE]

Yes, as I said.

QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898538, member: 38938"]Another defence shown was to catch the kick and sweep the supporting leg.

During this evening's sparring I deliberately telegraphed a turning kick because I knew the guy I was against would grab it - as he caught I kicked his other side with my other leg...[/QUOTE]

So he had your kicking leg, and you used your supporting leg to kick his other side.  What was holding you up?

QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898538, member: 38938"]I'm not saying none of the techniques would ever work because some would against an awful lot of people, and I'm not saying I'm a fantastic kicker - but I reckon I could defeat the majority of those defences.[/QUOTE]

I don't know you nor your capabilities, so I can't disagree.  But until you unexpectedly encounter one of those defenses, don't be too sure.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> My i don't have to just move backwards 6 " I can move a foot, backwards sideways, backwards and side wards or just forward. Just standing still whilst they kick me doesn't sound sensible, though that is what' they reach quite a lot in ma


I'm not aware of this as a strategy taught by any MA (maybe MT, though I have always gotten the impression that's a training tool and used when movement isn't available). Everyone I've talked kick defense with moves. Most block while moving, unless they are countering while moving. I can't recall any who just move (with no block or counter).


----------



## pdg (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> Just to make sure we are discussing the same thing, my point is if you can block you can move, not that you can defend ALL kicks thrown by anybody, that would be silly. Blocking is a high risk stratetgy, you likely to have to hand ar! Wrecked, it may be better than a kick to the face, but it's still not good and no where near as beneficial as not being in range. If there is no sting in the kick blocking or perhaps better TAKing the kick so you can grab the leg is ok



Pretty sure we're talking about the same thing - what I'm saying though is that you can block faster than you can move.

To my mind, the ideal is to do both. Move enough (in any direction) to take the main force away, and block at the same time, possibly/probably turning the block into a grab.



jobo said:


> Throwing kicks much above thigh height is also high risk, having you leg grabbed is a real possibility, that doesn't matter if you in the dojo, it does if they are going to dump you on the floor and stamp on you. Even with out the grab you now stood on one leg which makes you very vulnerable to a counter if your kick lands or not.



That's why the retraction/recovery is as important (if not more so) than the actual kick itself. Get that foot back on the floor or get dumped. If it gets grabbed, learn how to use that to your advantage.

If anyone thinks they can perform an end game devastating kick first time every time, sure, leave it hanging out there for the kodak moment.

If you're human however, it's yours so get it back 



jobo said:


> I'm happIly spend half an hour letting to try and kick me whilst I move, if your top end that may be painful but as you have admitted your kicks ARNt great I'LL risk it



If I'm ever up north I'll give you a message, it could be fun.



jobo said:


> My i don't have to just move backwards 6 " I can move a foot, backwards sideways, backwards and side wards or just forward. Just standing still whilst they kick me doesn't sound sensible, though that is what' they reach quite a lot in ma



Yes, relying on moving in one fashion all the time just won't work.

Don't be the mountain, be the stream


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> If I have time to block i have time to move, I only have rollback 6"



There is truth to that.  Very basic moves I learned in TKD was that blocking was normally also a strike to ensure I moved the incoming arm or leg just enough to prevent it from hitting its intended target.  A miss by 1 inch was a miss.  So I was taught to block with the focus of my power where it needed to be, when it needed to be, to cause a miss, not so much how much space it missed by.


----------



## pdg (Apr 27, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> So he had your kicking leg, and you used your supporting leg to kick his other side. What was holding you up?



He was. His grab became my floor.

Well, that's one way of putting it


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> He was. His grab became my floor.
> 
> Well, that's one way of putting it



Ah, that would work.  I just didn't realize his intent was to stop and hold you.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I agree it shouldn't be your constant goto defense.
> 
> QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898538, member: 38938"]With regard to the defence shown (cup the kicking foot and strike the ankle area while stepping backwards) I don't think it would work against an experienced kicker.



That is why I said it is very difficult to look at grappling videos and know what is going on and what you need to do to make it work.  What is happening is that he is trapping the foot.  I didn't learn it that way, just to step back and simultaneously strike.  A lot of what you are seeing, just like a lot of videos, is slowed down for you to (hopefully) learn.  Moves are slowed down and done sequentially for demonstration and learning purposes (like forms for instance).  The goal is to be fast and make some of the moves simultaneously so your opponent has less chance, or simply cannot react.  From your comments, either don't try to learn, or know you can't just try it (or most moves) one time, decide it won't work, and tell the world what a bad move it is..

QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898538, member: 38938"]One of the things we train to do is retract with speed and remake the kick while skipping the supporting leg toward the target, so stepping back would likely mean you just get kicked further away.[/QUOTE]

Yes, as I said.

QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898538, member: 38938"]Another defence shown was to catch the kick and sweep the supporting leg.

During this evening's sparring I deliberately telegraphed a turning kick because I knew the guy I was against would grab it - as he caught I kicked his other side with my other leg...[/QUOTE]

So he had your kicking leg, and you used your supporting leg to kick his other side.  What was holding you up?

QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898538, member: 38938"]I'm not saying none of the techniques would ever work because some would against an awful lot of people, and I'm not saying I'm a fantastic kicker - but I reckon I could defeat the majority of those defences.[/QUOTE]

I don't know you nor your capabilities, so I can't disagree.  But until you unexpectedly encounter one of those defenses, don't be too sure.[/QUOTE]
No I don't think it is( faster) if I'm up on my toes I can jump back or side ways with some considerable speed, my caLfs and quads have no trouble moving my mass very quickly, it does need fast reactions, but so does blocking


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not aware of this as a strategy taught by any MA (maybe MT, though I have always gotten the impression that's a training tool and used when movement isn't available). Everyone I've talked kick defense with moves. Most block while moving, unless they are countering while moving. I can't recall any who just move (with no block or counter).


No it's another one of my soccer Fu moves, I've spend a lot of time trying not to get kicked, the littlE hulton Sunday league is a war zone.

Though I'm sure Bruce Lee said " you can't hit what isn't there, though it could have been someone else. And boxing relies very heaviIy on backing s ay from strikes As does mma


----------



## pdg (Apr 27, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Ah, that would work.  I just didn't realize his intent was to stop and hold you.



I could've said "levitation" - I would've loved to see the responses to that 

His intention with the grab seemed to be stop and push, which worked in my favour because it opened up his front to my other leg as he turned - stop and keep stopping would work too, going for the flank. Stop and sweep would have needed a slightly different counter-counter to flow with the different force.

I look at it that if you always need one foot on the ground to kick or if you can't land on the foot you're kicking with you're not really a kicker.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Pretty sure we're talking about the same thing - what I'm saying though is that you can block faster than you can move.
> 
> To my mind, the ideal is to do both. Move enough (in any direction) to take the main force away, and block at the same time, possibly/probably turning the block into a grab.
> 
> ...


No I don't think it is( faster) if I'm up on my toes I can jump back or side ways with some considerable speed, my caLfs and quads have no trouble moving my mass very quickly, it does need fast reactions, but so does blocking


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> If I have time to block i have time to move, I only have rollback 6"


Moving just to be moving has no purpose.  The focus should be can you move enough and cover enough distance to evade the strike. This is different than just saying if you have time to block you have time to move.   Yeah you can move but it's not guaranteed you can move the distance to avoid the strike.  Not only that but a block cab be used to help close distance.   There is a reason why EVERY fighting system has blocks and redirects.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Moving just to be moving has no purpose.  The focus should be can you move enough and cover enough distance to evade the strike. This is different than just saying if you have time to block you have time to move.   Yeah you can move but it's not guaranteed you can move the distance to avoid the strike.  Not only that but a block cab be used to help close distance.   There is a reason why EVERY fighting system has blocks and redirects.


Well yes no maybe, the first goal is not to get tagged, if a fight lasts till the other guy gets bored or gAssess out , that's ok with me, if he gets frustrated with hitting thin air and over commits I'm have him. This won't win many contests, but that's not my purpose in life, not up getting kicked in the head is


----------



## EddieCyrax (Apr 27, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, for sure...intercept with a kick. I have always loved that technique when I watch it, but...pulling it off is a b*tch! LOL
> 
> He was your Sifu? Shoot, man...lucky. Does he still do seminars anywhere? Maybe not in the States, but over in Europe?



I use this tactic a lot.  Negates the power of their kicks. 

Another option that works if you are in an open stance with your sparring partner is to time a spinning back kick as they throw that roundhouse from the back leg.  

Timing is everything.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> No it's another one of my soccer Fu moves, I've spend a lot of time trying not to get kicked, the littlE hulton Sunday league is a war zone.
> 
> Though I'm sure Bruce Lee said " you can't hit what isn't there, though it could have been someone else. And boxing relies very heaviIy on backing s ay from strikes As does mma


And none of that is counter to what I said.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> I look at it that if you always need one foot on the ground to kick or if you can't land on the foot you're kicking with you're not really a kicker.


I like that distinction. I would not call myself a kicker, though I kick a fair amount in sparring. For me, the kicks are mostly for control and set-up (my kicks simply aren't fast enough to be a primary weapon).


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And none of that is counter to what I said.


No sometimes just once in a while I agree and just embellishing The point, your expecting a counter and one doesn't come, which back to my original piint


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> No sometimes just once in a while I agree and just embellishing The point, your expecting a counter and one doesn't come, which back to my original piint


Well, when you start with "no", but are agreeing, that's a bit confusing.


----------



## pdg (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I like that distinction. I would not call myself a kicker, though I kick a fair amount in sparring. For me, the kicks are mostly for control and set-up (my kicks simply aren't fast enough to be a primary weapon).



By my own definition I'm not quite a kicker either, but that's what I'm working toward.

My punches are my setup (unless it's point scoring, in which case they do work sometimes) - there's just not enough power there.

They're good for distraction and distancing to get my legs into play though.

Maybe that's what the actual OP is experiencing somewhat?


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Well, when you start with "no", but are agreeing, that's a bit confusing.


Not when I'm agreeing with a negative, " it didn't rain on thursday, " no (it didn't )or specifically " it's not instructed in most ma" no (it isnt")


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> I could've said "levitation" - I would've loved to see the responses to that
> 
> His intention with the grab seemed to be stop and push, which worked in my favour because it opened up his front to my other leg as he turned - stop and keep stopping would work too, going for the flank. Stop and sweep would have needed a slightly different counter-counter to flow with the different force.
> 
> *I look at it that if you always need one foot on the ground to kick or if you can't land on the foot you're kicking with you're not really a kicker*.








Look about the 55 second mark.  If the greatest kicker of all time couldn't do it, why should I believe you can?   

Truthfully, if that is the criteria for really being a kicker, I don't guess I qualify.  I used to think I did have a lot of power in times past.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> I look at it that if you always need one foot on the ground to kick or if you can't land on the foot you're kicking with you're not really a kicker.



I guess I'm not really a kicker, then, since I don't use jumping kicks any more. Guess I better turn in my belts and stop teaching...
On the other hand, I never saw Bill Wallace (one of the best kickers ever. Full stop.) use a jumping kick either, so I'm in good company. Maybe I dare keep teaching after all.

And since when do you land on the kicking foot anyway?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 27, 2018)

Ways to defend against kicks ...

Move the entire body out of range
Move the entire body laterally
Move the entire body towards the opponent, jamming the kick
Move just the body part being targeted out of the way
Move the entire body or the targeted area while simultaneously counter-striking
Block with a leg
Block with one or both arms
Redirect the kick, using an arm or leg
Perform a stop hit, using a punch or kick
Catch the kick and use it to takedown or off-balance the opponent
Catch the kick and use the moment for a counter strike
Catch the kick and use the opportunity for a destruction on the kicking leg
Perform a destruction on the kicking leg without catching it
Maintain aggressive pressure to keep the fight at close range with the opponent moving backwards so they can't launch kicks effectively.
Stay out of range until the opponent commits to a rapid advance, then reverse directions, meeting them at close range and clinch or overwhelm them with close range strikes before they have a chance to kick.

These methods can (and often should) be combined. For example, move with a round kick to take the sting off, wrap the leg, counter-kick to the groin, advance while holding the leg to compromise the opponent's balance, release the leg while closing to clinch/dirty boxing range, and maintain forward pressure to keep the opponent from having further opportunities to kick.

At any given moment , the circumstances in a fight may favor one or another of the methods listed above. For example, moving the entire body may allow you to completely evade the destructive potential of the kick. 
On the other hand, if your body is already in motion you may not have time to reverse your momentum if you are moving the wrong direction for the appropriate evasion.


----------



## wingchun100 (Apr 27, 2018)

At this point it is now a matter of muscle memory, which will come only with drills.


----------



## wingchun100 (Apr 27, 2018)

You have all given me some excellent tips, ideas, and things to think about. I cannot thank the board enough!


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> A good kicker (not me) can make that change in the same time the original kick would have landed. So, while you have time to move back 6", in that same time they are making the adjustment for that 6" move (without creating more time for you to move).



That's what this kick does.





and this kick does it too





here's another one





I'm not a fan of TKD but they are some of the best kickers in MA.  Sleep on those kicks and you'll go to sleep for real.

I wish I had my videos up so I could show me chasing someone down who is retreating.  I was able to kick and sweep my opponent as he was still retreating.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's what this kick does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I noted that midway through the Bruce vid, her was Sparing g and just moving backwards to avoid kickS, no blockss, so if it's good enough for him


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> I noted that midway through the Bruce vid, her was Sparing g and just moving backwards to avoid kickS, no blockss, so if it's good enough for him


Not sure what your point is.  Bruce lee used both blocking and evasive techniques.  There is actually video of him sparring and getting kicked by his opponent.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> On the other hand, I never saw Bill Wallace (one of the best kickers ever. Full stop.) use a jumping kick either,


I've used a jumping kick before in a real fight.  I will never do it again unless I can catch them off guard when they aren't looking.  In short a "sucker kick."  That kick only works when the person doesn't have a chance to give with the kick, which is what naturally happens when we see something comes towards us. 

My thoughts on this type of kick is. To only use it when you can kick someone similar to this.  





"Flying kicks" just aren't for me.   If anyone else has proof of one working when the opponent is facing the kicker, then I would like to see it.  I would be interested how it was successful.


----------



## DanT (Apr 28, 2018)

How I prefer to defend kicks:

Low round kick: Check with shin
Medium round kick: side step away from kick and catch it against my side or front kick to chest 
High round kick: duck under it or cover head and step in or front kick to chest

Low front kick: lead leg bong gerk
Medium front kick: pivot change stance backwards and catch kick or tan gerk
High front kick: slip outside and catch over my shoulder (very risky)

Low side kick: lead leg bong gerk
Medium side kick: shuffle back and catch kick
High side kick: side step

Spinning back kick: rush in, but beware a spinning back fist or elbow strike, tighten your abs because you will still get clipped, but now you have their back


Those are the main ones anyways.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've used a jumping kick before in a real fight.  I will never do it again unless I can catch them off guard when they aren't looking.  In short a "sucker kick."  That kick only works when the person doesn't have a chance to give with the kick, which is what naturally happens when we see something comes towards us.
> 
> My thoughts on this type of kick is. To only use it when you can kick someone similar to this.
> 
> ...


I recall seeing a video of an altercation between two guys. One grabs a bat (I think) and comes after the other one. The target does some type of jump/turn kick and snaps the bat off above the guy's hand. He changes his mind. I'll try to find it this weekend.


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## jobo (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure what your point is.  Bruce lee used both blocking and evasive techniques.  There is actually video of him sparring and getting kicked by his opponent.


My point is you posted a vid to show how ineffective moving out of range of a kick is, and the same video Shows Bruce avoiding kicks Only by moving out of range, no blocking at all


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

jobo said:


> My point is you posted a vid to show how ineffective moving out of range of a kick is, and the same video Shows Bruce avoiding kicks Only by moving out of range, no blocking at all



There was blocking and redirection as well as evasion.


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## jobo (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> There was blocking and redirection as well as evasion.


Where was there a kick blocked?


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

jobo said:


> Where was there a kick blocked?



Quite a few in the garden scenes around 4-4 1/2 minutes or so.



inb4 it's not a block if you're moving.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

jobo said:


> My point is you posted a vid to show how ineffective moving out of range of a kick is,


You are a pain sometimes.   I posted a video showing how some kicks are designed to cover distance and chase an opponent who is moving backwards in an effort to stay out of the way. 

I have never said that moving backwards is ineffective.  My point in showing the video is to highlight that evading a kick may not always be an option.  As you could see in that same bruce lee video,  his training partner evaded the first side kick but would have easy been caught by the second side kick.   There are a lot of Martial Arts kicks that are made to be deceptive and people who know how to use them, use them well.  People who don't know how to kick are less likely to do a side kick in a street fight.

If someone kicks you in a street fight, then most likely they know how to kick.  People who don't know how to kick usually won't kick in a street fight.  So the chances that you'll come across a kicker who doesn't know how to land a kick on his opponent is slim.  

For example,  in the video below.  Only one person is kicking. He kicks multiple times. The reason he is kicking because he knows how to kick.   When a person doesn't know how to kick, it is awkward and useless in a fight, and doing so will get that person in trouble.  when a person knows how to kick then they will without hesitation.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

How I prefer to defend kicks:

*Low round kick: *Move back, forward or into the kick.
*Medium round kick:* whatever comes from my brain.  In the past it has been the following.  Take the kick, move into the kick, move forward, block, grab.  
*High round kick:* Get kicked, block, I would probably duck too but only by instinct.  I usually try to maintain a height where all of my opponent's round house will bee at the medium level.
*Low front kick:* lead leg bong gerk
*Medium front kick:* Move, catch, walk into, strike, block, evade, move forward into the kick and allow the kick to land (my favorite, but takes a strong stomach muscles, timing, and the ability to sent energy (not chi but movement) through the abdomen.  Get any of that wrong and you end up with a hurt belly, redirect
High front kick: slip outside and catch over my shoulder (very risky)
*Low side kick:* probably move.  I don't get much of these to practice against.
*Medium side kick:* catch,  evade, strike and punish, redirect. grab., block,
*High side kick: *Don't know.
*Spinning back kick:* move in and take the standing leg if they are still using it.  Move back and at angle if I'm too far to advance.  This is one of the few kicks I don't try to block because I never know what's coming out of the spin.


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## Martial D (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have never said that moving backwards is ineffective.



I would. At least in the sense that it's a dangerous thing to do. Once you are on your heels if the other guy decides to press you could be in real trouble. Not just from kicks, either, you are also more vulnerable to takedowns and punches, and in no position to threaten with anything.

I personally love it when a sparring partner goes straight back instead of angling out, free shots!


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## jobo (Apr 28, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I would. At least in the sense that it's a dangerous thing to do. Once you are on your heels if the other guy decides to press you could be in real trouble. Not just from kicks, either, you are also more vulnerable to takedowns and punches, and in no position to threaten with anything.
> 
> I personally love it when a sparring partner goes straight back instead of angling out, free shots!


Why would you be on your heels? You can go backwards on your toes,


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I would. At least in the sense that it's a dangerous thing to do. Once you are on your heels if the other guy decides to press you could be in real trouble.


 This would be what i called back pedaling. This type of backward movement is always dangerous.regardless of that person's skill level.  Textbook example of the risk.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

jobo said:


> Why would you be on your heels? You can go backwards on your toes,


"On your heels" is an expression, because the footwork looks like someone who is moving on their heels.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have never said that moving backwards is ineffective.


When your opponent kicks you, if you can catch his kick, it gives you a chance to take him down. If you move back, you will miss that opportunity.

The only good kicker is the kicker who is on the ground.


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## jobo (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> "On your heels" is an expression, because the footwork looks like someone who is moving on their heels.


It only looks like they are on their heel IF they are on their heels, Otherwise it looks like they are on their toes, because they ARE on their toes


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## wingchun100 (Apr 28, 2018)

I am so bad at visualizing the defenses in my head that I had to write everything out on index cards. LOL This was complete with little stick figures showing my opponent and I in one stance or another.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

jobo said:


> It only looks like they are on their heel IF they are on their heels, Otherwise it looks like they are on their toes, because they ARE on their toes


That's why it's an expression, because the MOVEMENT looks like someone MOVING back on their heels.  

That's why the expression isn't "Once you get them back on their toes."  

Jobo where are you from and what is your native language?


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## jobo (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's why it's an expression, because the MOVEMENT looks like someone MOVING back on their heels.
> 
> That's why the expression isn't "Once you get them back on their toes."
> 
> Jobo where are you from and what is your native language?


But it doesnt, it looks like someone moving back on their toes, 
Going back flat footed, would be rightLy called on your heels, but that not what I'm suggesting, Because you heels do not touch the ground,


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

jobo said:


> But it doesnt, it looks like someone moving back on their toes,
> Going back flat footed, would be rightLy called on your heels, but that not what I'm suggesting, Because you heels do not touch the ground,


  Do you know what an expression is? or figure of speech?


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## Buka (Apr 28, 2018)

I'm curious, anybody ever been kicked with the opposite leg after catching a kick?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2018)

Buka said:


> I'm curious, anybody ever been kicked with the opposite leg after catching a kick?



When I was much (much much...) younger, I tried that a couple times. It did twist my caught leg out of their hand(s), but I can't recall that the opposite leg kick ever actually landed.


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> When I was much (much much...) younger, I tried that a couple times. It did twist my caught leg out of their hand(s), but I can't recall that the opposite leg kick ever actually landed.



Didn't land at all?

I didn't connect with anything close to meaningful power, but enough for a tag point - which is all I was aiming to do.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Didn't land at all?
> 
> I didn't connect with anything close to meaningful power, but enough for a tag point - which is all I was aiming to do.



Didn't land in any way I'd consider (even then) as effective. I do not now, nor can I remember ever, care if it scores a point. If it's not effective, it's not worth doing.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

Buka said:


> I'm curious, anybody ever been kicked with the opposite leg after catching a kick?


Sort of. when I was in the 5th grade and I had a fight with my best friend (a real fight)  It was more of a fake kick to my right and I put my hands out with the expectation that I would be able to catch the kick.  However the kick stopped half way and before I knew it, I was kicked in the face.  I never forgotten about that. Lesson learned about "chasing hands."  If you have reach for it or chase it then it's best not to try and grab what you are reaching for or what your hands are chasing.  

I had a student try it and the other guy just let go of the leg when the kick started and the student hit the ground like a bag of rocks.   Lesson:  Don't do any technique that relies on your opponent to hold you up.


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Didn't land in any way I'd consider (even then) as effective. I do not now, nor can I remember ever, care if it scores a point. If it's not effective, it's not worth doing.



If you're playing for points and it scores a point, it's situationally effective.


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## Buka (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I had a student try it and the other guy just let go of the leg when the kick started and the student hit the ground like a bag of rocks.   Lesson:  Don't do any technique that relies on your opponent to hold you up.



Yes. That is the exact counter to it. I was known for kicking with the opposite leg when a kick of mine was caught. Probably scored with it fifty times in competition. But, man, there ain't nothing in the Arts, at least that I've seen, that crashes you to the ground in an uncontrolled way like when they let go of your leg in mid kick.

And you can't really break-fall properly when it happens. You get screwed into the ground ugly.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> If you're playing for points and it scores a point, it's situationally effective.



If you're playing for points... you're confused about the purpose of sparring. The purpose of sparring is to practice fighting skills. You're not alone in losing sight of this, sadly.


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you're playing for points... you're confused about the purpose of sparring. The purpose of sparring is to practice fighting skills. You're not alone in losing sight of this, sadly.



No, that's _your_ purpose for sparring.

My purpose for sparring is sparring, probably working toward point based competition matches.

I didn't take up TKD (or kickboxing) with the intention of becoming a fighter - I wasn't even slightly interested in sparring at all initially. I have developed an interest in the competition aspect of sparring, but I'm still not in it to go out looking for fights. In fact, I'm not even interested in full contact competition.

One could draw a parallel to target shooting only ever being practice for killing things...


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

Buka said:


> Yes. That is the exact counter to it. I was known for kicking with the opposite leg when a kick of mine was caught. Probably scored with it fifty times in competition. But, man, there ain't nothing in the Arts, at least that I've seen, that crashes you to the ground in an uncontrolled way like when they let go of your leg in mid kick.
> 
> And you can't really break-fall properly when it happens. You get screwed into the ground ugly.


You'll have to pardon me for how much I enjoyed the image of you crashing on that, Buka. Good kickers scare me, so a fair amount of _schadenfreude _involved here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you're playing for points... you're confused about the purpose of sparring. The purpose of sparring is to practice fighting skills. You're not alone in losing sight of this, sadly.


Not everyone is training for that purpose DD. Some are doing it just for the fun/sport of it. For those folks, points are useful.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> but I'm still not in it to go out looking for fights.


I don't know why so many people think that knowing how to fight = going out to start fights?  This is the same logic that people in China have.  Some of the nicest people I've met are the ones who have incredible fighting skills and are the last ones that you would ever see or hear about being in a real fight.  



pdg said:


> One could draw a parallel to target shooting only ever being practice for killing things...


Yeah, not sure you understand what Dirty Dog is talking about.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not everyone is training for that purpose DD. Some are doing it just for the fun/sport of it. For those folks, points are useful.


I don't understand the usage of "points". You either knock your opponent down, or you take your opponent down. You can't "points" your opponent down.

As long as your opponent is still standing, your task has not completed yet. The only good striker is a striker that is on the ground.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand the usage of "points". You either knock your opponent down, or you take your opponent down. You can't "points" your opponent down.
> 
> As long as your opponent is still standing, your task has not completed yet. The only good striker is a striker that is on the ground.


That's not true if someone is only training for the sport of point fighting. In that case, you can win entirely on points - no knocking down needed.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Good kickers scare me, so a fair amount of _schadenfreude _involved here.


Just remember these 5 important things.
1. ummm
2. I think....
3. Not sure...
4. Can't remember...
5. Always where your mouth piece lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's not true if someone is only training for the sport of point fighting. In that case, you can win entirely on points - no knocking down needed.


The point fighting can be used as a beginner level training. It's not proper to be used for advance level training.

Your point fighting experience will not be able to help you in these situations.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not everyone is training for that purpose DD. Some are doing it just for the fun/sport of it. For those folks, points are useful.


I read it as that he means.  The techniques that are done in TKD are Fighting Techniques.  Sparring is where you get an opportunity to learn how to correctly apply those techniques.  Point sparring should be done with the actual techniques that you train from the forms and sparring.  This is is rarely the case simply because people don't practice their techniques in sparring.  The reason they don't practice is because they are too focused on winning or scoring, and it's this focus that prevents them from doing what's needed to learn which is to get things wrong and learn from it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The point fighting can be used as a beginner level training. It's not proper to be used for advance level training.
> 
> Your point fighting experience will not be able to help you in these situations.


If you're training FOR point fighting, then point fighting is the advanced training. Olympic archers train to shoot Olympic target. That's as advanced as it gets. If someone is training for hunting deer, target shooting is probably beginner level.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I read it as that he means.  The techniques that are done in TKD are Fighting Techniques.  Sparring is where you get an opportunity to learn how to correctly apply those techniques.  Point sparring should be done with the actual techniques that you train from the forms and sparring.  This is is rarely the case simply because people don't practice their techniques in sparring.  The reason they don't practice is because they are too focused on winning or scoring, and it's this focus that prevents them from doing what's needed to learn which is to get things wrong and learn from it.


And that's all perfectly valid if the point is to learn TKD for something other than point fighting. If the entire point is just fun and point fighting, then anything technically "wrong" that doesn't affect those pursuits doesn't really matter.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And that's all perfectly valid if the point is to learn TKD for something other than point fighting.


If you can't do TKD technique applications in point sparring then are you really doing TKD or learning TKD?


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you can't do TKD technique applications in point sparring then are you really doing TKD or learning TKD?



Even if you’re not using every technique in the system, you’re still using the system. I hear BJJ guys all the time say that the more advanced they get the simpler their game becomes. Taekwondo sparring is similar, especially competitive sparring. Techniques tend to be limited because people gravitate toward what is proven to be most effective for a given situation. If you’re training for competition, it’s just common sense to work on the things you’ll need under your particular rule set. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you can't do TKD technique applications in point sparring then are you really doing TKD or learning TKD?


I'm missing something here, JGW. He's training TKD for fun and point sparring. I presume that means he's doing TKD during his point sparring.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> No, that's _your_ purpose for sparring.



No, that is THE purpose of sparring. Rules that allow scoring with techniques that are not effective or encourage behavior that would be foolish in a fight are the biggest problem with the sport side of martial arts.



> One could draw a parallel to target shooting only ever being practice for killing things...



Only if one were being a silly doofus. Target shooting, unlike what you're describing, doesn't make your shooting ineffective for hunting or self defense. Which means target shooting is a good thing to practice for it's own sake, even if you have no intention of ever killing anything.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 28, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, that is THE purpose of sparring. Rules that allow scoring with techniques that are not effective or encourage behavior that would be foolish in a fight are the biggest problem with the sport side of martial arts.



This is your perspective because you view TKD as a martial art. Those who practice strictly as a sport or a cultural activity have a different view.

We have a similar tension in BJJ between those of us who view it as a martial art and the increasing number of practitioners who participate solely for the sake of sport competition and have no concerns with whether a given technique is appropriate for a real fight.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This is your perspective because you view TKD as a martial art. Those who practice strictly as a sport or a cultural activity have a different view.



TKD _*is*_ a martial art. Full stop.



> We have a similar tension in BJJ between those of us who view it as a martial art and the increasing number of practitioners who participate solely for the sake of sport competition and have no concerns with whether a given technique is appropriate for a real fight.



Those people are wrong too.
In both cases, the sport is a subset of the art; a training tool. And insofar as it encourages the development of the skillset used in that art, it's a good thing. When it encourages the use of ineffective, useless, or outright stupid techniques, then it should stop pretending to be something it's not. Stop calling it TKD. Call it foot pattycake. Stop calling it BJJ. Call it advanced wedgie administration.
This wouldn't even be an issue if the governing bodies of the various sports would use rational rulesets.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 28, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> TKD _*is*_ a martial art. Full stop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From a prescriptive point of view, I’d like to agree with you. I think much of the richness and value of a martial art is lost when it is reduced to just a sport.

From a descriptive point of view ... neither TKD nor BJJ nor any other martial art exists as a Platonic ideal with a singular existence in of itself without regard to its practitioners. If there are no practitioners, there is no art. Full stop. If there are practitioners, but they have significantly different concepts and goals for their practice, then we risk falling into “no true Scotsman” territory when we decree that only those who share our perspective are training the real art. (We see the same thing with certain followers of religion when they announce that such and such a group of their coreligionists with whom they disagree aren’t really Christian or Muslim or whatever.)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> We have a similar tension in BJJ between those of us who view it as a martial art and the increasing number of practitioners who participate solely for the sake of sport competition and have no concerns with whether a given technique is appropriate for a real fight.


It's sad to see the future of BJJ may be like this.

We MA lovers do have the responsibility to "guide" the MA toward the right direction even if it may upset a small group of people.

If sport can hurt combat, it's the wrong sport.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> TKD _*is*_ a martial art. Full stop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, people can't practice something for their own purposes? They aren't allowed to have their own view of an art and focus on the parts (and application) of that art that fit their personal pursuit?

NGA is specifically intended to be a self-defense art for civilians (it's actually in the name of the art). But I know a few folks who study it to work on the principle of aiki, to create more flowing movement, and for the fun and relaxation of it. Those things aren't really aligned (IMO) with practice specifically for defensive use, but they certainly move well and flow nicely. They won't practice some of the applications I do - just not very "aiki" - but I'm not the NGA police. They can put the movements to whatever use they see fit - kind of like the folks who use Tai Chi's slow movements to develop their bodies. No harm, no foul.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's sad to see the future of BJJ may be like this.
> 
> We MA lovers do have the responsibility to "guide" the MA toward the right direction even if it may upset a small group of people.
> 
> If sport can hurt combat, it's the wrong sport.


I think it's more realistic to say the future of one branch of BJJ might include things like this. As long as folks within BJJ recognize the difference between that and what folks like Tony do, I don't see a problem with it. I think it's silly, and wouldn't do something like that even in competition where rules might make it make sense, but if it works for someone competing, why would I care?

EDIT: How can a sport "hurt combat"?


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## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

So really, because I'm not doing it to be "combat ready" and aiming to make sure every move I make is effective at damaging someone I should hand in my belt and cancel my membership?

I could buy a lot of custard filled doughnuts with the money...


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## _Simon_ (Apr 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's sad to see the future of BJJ may be like this.
> 
> We MA lovers do have the responsibility to "guide" the MA toward the right direction even if it may upset a small group of people.
> 
> If sport can hurt combat, it's the wrong sport.


(Interjection: THANK YOU for posting that gif again XDXDXD)


But yes I think it's an interesting topic, and possibly one that won't find resolution, simply because it's not black and white.

Just depends on the viewpoint one is coming from. Yes, martial arts are designed for self defense in mind. Yes martial arts techniques can be practiced in a variety of ways and for a variety of purposes. Just because karate techniques are performed in a competition does not necessarily make it 'less' of karate.

Does it actually cheapen martial arts as a whole or take anything away from the self defense aspect? I just don't think so.. sure it can lead people to thinking that certain martial arts are just for sports, can bring about more people training and opening up dojos with this solely being taught. But the people who are doing it for self defense are still gonna keep doing that, it's not deterring them, and those interested in keeping it for that purpose will just keep doing their own thing. Just as the others will keep doing theirs. Seems like this is a definition thing, or making sure that people see it in a certain true light..

To me it just all doesn't matter so much.. no injustices are being done, nor any harm. Only if we attach yourself to a name/original intention then will things go funky. I don't practice martial arts for self defense, I couldn't honestly tell you why I do. But I love doing it. And it is nice to preserve the original intention of martial arts. I guess I see it as evolving to suits people's needs, and that's a beautiful thing.


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## jobo (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> So really, because I'm not doing it to be "combat ready" and aiming to make sure every move I make is effective at damaging someone I should hand in my belt and cancel my membership?
> 
> I could buy a lot of custard filled doughnuts with the money...


It's a ( reasonable ) point of view i supose. It's fighting after all, but then most TMAs are filled with Low %ineffective techneqes, so most of them wouldn't count to DDs definition of only being a ma if they give you the ability to dismember someone with your bare hands. Then there the question of why punching bits of wood and kicking rubber dolls is considered to give you practical skills, but learning to accurately hit a Moving target is not?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm missing something here, JGW. He's training TKD for fun and point sparring. I presume that means he's doing TKD during his point sparring.


Follow me on this.  This is how my brain sees it.
TKD teaches TKD fighting techniques.
TKD fighting techniques are in the forms.
TKD Fighting technique application is done as part of the drills.
The only real way to understand how to apply the techniques is through sparring because it includes things like,  timing, distance, speed, baiting etc.
If you are using TKD techniques during sparring then you are using TKD fighting techniques during sparring.
If you don't use TKD techniques during sparring then you aren't using TKD fighting techniques.

If the purpose of sparring isn't used to learn how to apply the TKD fighting techniques, then what techniques are you applying?  If the purpose of sparring is only to win then you can basically just do any sort of thing that doesn't have to be TKD.  For example, those long diving punches to tap an opponent on the head, which is a Point Sparring technique  but not a TKD technique, because diving punches are not in the TKD forms nor are they a part of it's fighting concepts.

If you don't train to learn how to apply TKD techniques (which are fighting techniques), then how can one say they are doing TKD in sparring?   My point is that there is no way you can do TKD sparring without learning how to apply TKD techniques in sparring.  

I'm making this comment because someone stated  (can't remember off the top of my head), that they do sparring to win.  So if that person isn't using sparring to learn how to apply TKD techniques then what is that person winning with?


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## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> TKD teaches TKD fighting techniques



Yes.



JowGaWolf said:


> TKD fighting techniques are in the forms



Some - not all are contained within the patterns.



JowGaWolf said:


> TKD Fighting technique application is done as part of the drill



Yes.



JowGaWolf said:


> If you are using TKD techniques during sparring then you are using TKD fighting techniques during sparring.



Yes.



JowGaWolf said:


> If you don't use TKD techniques during sparring then you aren't using TKD fighting techniques



And you don't (shouldn't) score using them.



JowGaWolf said:


> I'm making this comment because someone stated (can't remember off the top of my head), that they do sparring to win. So if that person isn't using sparring to learn how to apply TKD techniques then what is that person winning with?



I said that I spar for the sake of sparring, and to score points - which I consider slightly different to the mindset involved in sparring to be "combat ready".



JowGaWolf said:


> For example, those long diving punches to tap an opponent on the head, which is a Point Sparring technique but not a TKD technique, because diving punches are not in the TKD forms nor are they a part of it's fighting concepts.



Depends how you define "diving" really.

If you mean a jumping (/flying) punch, then they don't make much of an appearance in the patterns to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean they aren't part of the art.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Rules that allow scoring with techniques that are not effective or encourage behavior that would be foolish in a fight are the biggest problem with the sport side of martial arts.


These rules also encourage techniques that aren't part of the the martial art system that is being claimed.  It no longer becomes martial, and it no longer becomes a technique from that system.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Follow me on this.  This is how my brain sees it.
> TKD teaches TKD fighting techniques.
> TKD fighting techniques are in the forms.
> TKD Fighting technique application is done as part of the drills.
> ...


Techniques can be applied different ways. I can deliver virtually identical front kicks - both correct by description to NGA standards. One will have power and be useful for slowing down or injuring an attacker. The other will be a tag, useful for point sparring. If it is useful for SD, it's only really as a feint. But it's the same technique. I could teach that (and other) techiniques specifically for a point-sparring type of environment, and the people learning them would not be learning useful fighting techniques. They'd still be learning NGA strikes, but learning to apply them (and strategy) to a context that doesn't require power and combat effectiveness.\

But it would still be NGA strikes. Their understanding of those strikes would be appropriate to the context for which they are meant. A fast, light kick is more effective for point sparring than a more powerful kick, so they'd be improving their ability for the context they intend. And their sparring would be the ultimate point of their training, rather than just a training tool.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> These rules also encourage techniques that aren't part of the the martial art system that is being claimed.  It no longer becomes martial, and it no longer becomes a technique from that system.


I'm not a fan of defining a system by its techniques.


----------



## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan of defining a system by its techniques.



Now that's the other thing, defining what is and what isn't "part of TKD" is almost impossible.

One could look at the list of techniques contained within the patterns and decide that constitutes the entire art.

Then, they look in the single volume condensed encyclopedia and discover possibly hundreds more techniques and variations - better expand that list.

Then, they have a browse through the 15 volume encyclopedia - hopefully they'll read the part about it not covering everything that is TKD.

So, it does actually become very difficult to say that such and such move isn't a TKD technique, because it might very well be.


The stuff that scores points does so because it's in the ruleset - not because it's definitively representative of the core of the art.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> So really, because I'm not doing it to be "combat ready" and aiming to make sure every move I make is effective at damaging someone


The damage that your technique puts out should only be managed by the power you put into it, not by the technique that you do (with the exceptions of the illegal techniques)

For example,  a punching or kicking technique can be done with full power or low power without having to change the technique.  I train my power punches all the time when I spar without hurting my training partner.   The only reason know one is knocked out is because we don't put all of that power into the punch.  To be honest we are basically point sparring with the exception of hits that we are willing to take if it means we can deliver a better strike.

A jab is a jab.  If you learn how to jab correctly then your jab is "combat ready"  how much power you are willing to put in it will determine if you are using it for combat and not point fighting.   The technique is "combat ready"   

If you are doing techniques that are specifically for point sparring then 9 times out of 10 you aren't doing TKD.   The same techniques you train in TKD are the same techniques that you should be using in point sparring but at a lower power.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> I said that I spar for the sake of sparring, and to score points - which I consider slightly different to the mindset involved in sparring to be "combat ready".


  The technique itself is "combat ready"   the only variance should be the power that is put into applying it.  The mindset shouldn't have any baring on the technique itself.  The mindset will have baring on the power that is put into a technique.   For example,  a jab in point sparring is not the same power as a jab in a street fight or full contact.   It's the same dangerous technique but not the same power.


----------



## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

The point I was making initially was that training to fight (fo realz bro) wasn't my motivation for sparring.

Also, not every technique is directly effective in isolation.

The reactionary kick I described - one kick got caught so I kicked with the other foot. By itself the second kick would not cause damage, but it would score a point.

Because it scored a point, it was contextually effective.

But, in a different situation it might work as a throwaway technique that may make them release my other foot or disguise a punch for instance. So, it's effective without being effective.

Now, I can't find reference to that technique "being TKD", unless I look at it as something like a second generation derivative of another kick.

Does that make it an invalid move?

The majority of stuff I'll do in sparring is extremely pulled to stay within the rules, because "excessive contact" is a thing.

Other stuff, well it won't do much by itself in a damage analysis no matter how you try to throw it, but as part of something bigger?


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## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you are doing techniques that are specifically for point sparring then 9 times out of 10 you aren't doing TKD. The same techniques you train in TKD are the same techniques that you should be using in point sparring but at a lower power



Right, I can see where some of the confusion is coming from.

Some is mine, some is yours.

I can't think of a technique I would use for points that couldn't be 'turned up' or redirected to use in conjunction with something else.


I just choose not to.

So, one could surmise that my sparring is low intensity fight prep, in that if I wanted to I could use all the same stuff, but harder.


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## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

Oh, and btw - if anyone has a video of TKD that is comparable to that "BJJ" guy doing a dying bug dance, I'd genuinely like to see it.

Y'know, just in case I'm doing the same stuff


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> Depends how you define "diving" really.


 That's a vertical jump and not the same one that was in the video of Raymond Daniels where he dives to punch and then falls because he's off balance.   That punch is similar to what that Gorilla did when it jumped in the air and then threw a punch.  His jump was also vertical. 



gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan of defining a system by its techniques.


 How would you define a martial art system?  Jow Ga kung Fu  is not the same as Aikido.   If not defined by the techniques, then how?


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## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's a vertical jump and not the same one that was in the video of Raymond Daniels where he dives to punch and then falls because he's off balance. That punch is similar to what that Gorilla did when it jumped in the air and then threw a punch. His jump was also vertical



Do you have a link to the Daniels video (or do I have to search myself)?

The jump doesn't have to be vertical, it can make ground too:


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh, and btw - if anyone has a video of TKD that is comparable to that "BJJ" guy doing a dying bug dance, I'd genuinely like to see it.
> 
> Y'know, just in case I'm doing the same stuff



I’d compare the flutter foot technique to that, where a guy stands on one foot and looks like they’re trying to shake off toilet paper from their other foot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> Right, I can see where some of the confusion is coming from.
> 
> Some is mine, some is yours.
> 
> ...


Correct.  That's what I'm trying to get at but with some difficulty. lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> How can a sport "hurt combat"?


Here is a simple example.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> he jump doesn't have to be vertical, it can make ground too:


 Correct it can make ground, but notice on that video he doesn't have that forward diving look either.  When he lands he'll be in position to cause more damage.  He's not going to fall forward because he was leaning too far forward.  



pdg said:


> Do you have a link to the Daniels video (or do I have to search myself)?


Here are some Raymond Daniel videos.  I like to use him because he's actually done MMA compeitition and other full contact competitions.
*Raymond Daniel Point Sparring*




"Dive punches" 

0:33
0:53
1:14
1:25
1:44
2:18
3:24
3:57
4:07
There are probably some more, within the 2 minutes left from this point.  As you can see there is a lot of these type of punches being thrown.

*Raymond Daniel Professional Fight*
You can see his opponent time Raymond Daniel's bouncing.  Raymond finishes the fight with a nice kick.





*Raymond Highlights*
This is from 2017   He has a some full contact fights on youtube.


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## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

I see what you mean by diving now.

I'd like to think that type of punch wouldn't score (especially if you fall over afterwards, because anything other than feet touching the floor is a foul).

I'll do a jumping punch with or without making ground, but not at the expense of recovery following it - I'll make sure I'm in a position to land and continue.

Part of that could be the type of point sparring 'we' do - it's not point stop, it's continuous.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh, and btw - if anyone has a video of TKD that is comparable to that "BJJ" guy doing a dying bug dance, I'd genuinely like to see it.
> 
> Y'know, just in case I'm doing the same stuff


The closest I can think of is a video I saw of a guy hopping along on one leg, chasing his opponent across the mat with kicks. I wish I could think how to search for it, because I found it almost as funny as the BJJ video. In both cases, the essential techniques were from the art - it was the strategy used that was only viable for competition.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> How would you define a martial art system?  Jow Ga kung Fu  is not the same as Aikido.   If not defined by the techniques, then how?


By the principles. BJJ has "new material" added regularly. NGA didn't originally contain a standard hip throw or shrimping hip escape from mount in the core curriculum. I teach both, and know others (more mainline to the art) who do. I consider them NGA techniques, though they are not found in the documented curriculum. Why? Because they fit with the principles of the art as I see it. Same for a heel-led side kick, hook punch, and single-leg takedown from kneeling. IMO, the core techniques of an art are there for teaching the principles. Once you learn them (the principles) and are operating on them, rather than on a syllabus, new material fits within the art.

I also recognize that defining an art is somewhat a matter of symantics. There's some overlap between Judo and NGA. There's some overlap between Ueshiba's Aikido and NGA (but not so much with Judo). NGA also has a large overlap with Shotokan Karate. Depending upon what an instructor emphasizes within the art, it will look more like one thing than another, but can still be the same art. BJJ could have just been called Jiu Jutsu (back when that's the name many knew Judo by). It's a valid subset of Judo at its start, probably with some material borrowed from elsewhere, but using the basic Judo principles as the core from what I see. The emphasis is different, so it looks different, but if the founders of BJJ had chosen to, they could have simply kept it named with the art it primarily draws from (could even have followed the Judo name), and it would be seen as a branch of that art, rather than a derivative of it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a simple example.


That's a picture. What's the point of it? That sport isn't hurting combat.


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## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

So continuing from previous posts of mine...

Some of the confusion I can see that I've caused, possibly with the terminology I use or my interpretation of what others have said.

For instance, point sparring.

Going off the videos posted, that's not what I've been talking about with sparring for points.

I'm blinkered by what I do, as in while we spar for points we don't reset after each point, there's no looking over to the judge(s) after every punch/kick to see if it scored.

Sparring in the class environment is also continuous, but there's nobody keeping score unless we choose to do it amongst ourselves.

Oh, and also apologies to the OP for any part I've played in the ever so slight thread drift


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> So continuing from previous posts of mine...
> 
> Some of the confusion I can see that I've caused, possibly with the terminology I use or my interpretation of what others have said.
> 
> ...


when I was learning karate.  Our point sparring was continuous.  We has a limited amount of time to get in strikes.  The person who had the most strikes "won."  I enjoyed that type of sparring as a kid.  I think it made me a little aggressive though,  when someone hits you 4 times then you have to really put the pressure on to catch up.  The only breaks I can remember may be the ones that were done for safety reasons.   I'm only guessing because I do remember the instructor pulling me off someone and then reset.  I just don't know if it was done for safety or if it was done because  my karate started to turn into random and blind punching with no no technique.   I won a lot of medals back then, but wasn't mature enough not to lose them.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Same for a heel-led side kick, hook punch, and single-leg takedown from kneeling.


Things like this would be basic techniques, that all martial arts systems will have.  I find it difficult to believe that a founder will make a system that couldn't do some of these things.  They may not be trained frequently, but it's difficult to see a fighting system with no method of being able to attack with a punch or a kick.  How would someone effectively train the application if the student couldn't give a good punch or kick?  How would someone be able to develop a system that is able to counter those type of punches if someone didn't know how to punch?

How would you a system develop to deal with kicks if they couldn't kick each other well enough to create a functional technique to use against a kick?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Things like this would be basic techniques, that all martial arts systems will have.  I find it difficult to believe that a founder will make a system that couldn't do some of these things.  They may not be trained frequently, but it's difficult to see a fighting system with no method of being able to attack with a punch or a kick.  How would someone effectively train the application if the student couldn't give a good punch or kick?  How would someone be able to develop a system that is able to counter those type of punches if someone didn't know how to punch?
> 
> How would you a system develop to deal with kicks if they couldn't kick each other well enough to create a functional technique to use against a kick?


You missed my point. There are 10 kicks in the standard NGA curriculum, and about 7 (depending how you count them) hand strikes. Those I listed are not among them, but are part of the NGA that I teach. Same with the basic hip throw (though the Classical techniques include 3 related throws). See, you referred to a "system that couldn't do these things" - that's kind of my point. The system is just the principles and an approach to teaching them (via selected techniques). Other techniques may or may not fit within that system, and basic techniques tend to fit within many different systems. So, while I know a hip throw first as a Judo technique, and if you asked for an NGA technique I doubt anyone would mention that basic hip throw, it's still within NGA.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> How would you define a martial art system? Jow Ga kung Fu is not the same as Aikido. If not defined by the techniques, then how?


Physical principles, tactical doctrine, and pedagogy are more useful for defining an art than a list of techniques (especially for arts like BJJ which have an ever expanding and evolving repertoire).



JowGaWolf said:


> Things like this would be basic techniques, that all martial arts systems will have.



You might think so, but I can easily name arts which don't have those specific techniques.



JowGaWolf said:


> They may not be trained frequently, but it's difficult to see a fighting system with no method of being able to attack with a punch or a kick.



Note - Gerry listed a specific type of punch, a specific type of kick, and a specific type of takedown, not punches, kicks, and takedowns in general.



JowGaWolf said:


> How would someone effectively train the application if the student couldn't give a good punch or kick? How would someone be able to develop a system that is able to counter those type of punches if someone didn't know how to punch?
> 
> How would you a system develop to deal with kicks if they couldn't kick each other well enough to create a functional technique to use against a kick?



Excellent question, and yet I see it all the time. Perhaps the most common is "anti-grappling", where people who have no clue of how to do takedowns or ground-fighting teach defenses against those attacks. You can also Aikido practitioners demonstrating defenses against strikes from ukes who don't know how to punch or kick. (This may not have been so much of an issue in the early days of Aikido, when many of the pioneers already knew how to strike from their background in other arts.) A more subtle version of the problem is in arts which do teach punches and kicks, instructors teaching ineffective* counters to a different style of striking (typically boxing) that they don't understand.

*(Sometimes the techniques themselves aren't necessarily ineffective, but the practice is because the students can't properly replicate the unfamiliar attacks. I've been in WT classes taught by @yak sao and his son where we covered "anti-boxing" methods. The tactics were valid, but none of the other students could present an accurate boxing attack to work off of. This can lead to a false sense of security. My training partner was having trouble executing the techniques, even though I was feeding the pre-set attacks slowly and without guile, because I was using proper form and he didn't have the right timing to pull off the technique. The instructor, yak sao's son, ended up telling me not to recompose my guard after feeding the attacks so that my partner could get the feel of "winning" the exchange. I don't think that was doing my partner any favors.)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's a picture. What's the point of it? That sport isn't hurting combat.


To assume that your opponent wont

- punch your head in pure wrestling, or
- catch your kicking leg and sweep you down in TKD match

are both wrong training.

The more you train in those sport, the less alert you will have, the less combat ability you will develop.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You missed my point. There are 10 kicks in the standard NGA curriculum, and about 7 (depending how you count them) hand strikes. Those I listed are not among them, but are part of the NGA that I teach. Same with the basic hip throw (though the Classical techniques include 3 related throws). See, you referred to a "system that couldn't do these things" - that's kind of my point. The system is just the principles and an approach to teaching them (via selected techniques). Other techniques may or may not fit within that system, and basic techniques tend to fit within many different systems. So, while I know a hip throw first as a Judo technique, and if you asked for an NGA technique I doubt anyone would mention that basic hip throw, it's still within NGA.


ok ok.  I understand now.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 29, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I would. At least in the sense that it's a dangerous thing to do. Once you are on your heels if the other guy decides to press you could be in real trouble. Not just from kicks, either, you are also more vulnerable to takedowns and punches, and in no position to threaten with anything.
> 
> I personally love it when a sparring partner goes straight back instead of angling out, free shots!



What MA teaches to retreat on your heels?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The instructor, yak sao's son, ended up telling me not to recompose my guard after feeding the attacks so that my partner could get the feel of "winning" the exchange. I don't think that was doing my partner any favors.)


It doesn't do any favors for the person trying to learn.  Sometimes it's necessary to get tagged in the face and then use that experience to figure out what we aren't doing correctly. After few failures and breaks in between to figure out what is being done incorrectly, "a light bulb moment" usually occurs.  But it rarely occurs without a few failures.  A student just has to be willing to accept those failures more as a learning experience instead of what we would normally think of as a failure.  

For me personally those "light bulb" moments where all of the confusion and darkness instantly goes away and is placed with a real understanding of how to apply a technique is worth being hit in the face a couple of times (so long as they aren't brutal) lol.   Nothing can really come close to the feeling of clarity when something suddenly makes sense.    Not criticizing teaching methods, but this: "could get the feel of "winning" the exchange." is something that robs people of experiencing that clarity when they finally understand.  For me it would be worst to feel that I understand, then to run my mouth, get in a ring or on the mats, and suddenly discover.  "I don't know shiz."  In this scenario.  I've fallen, by going from high self-esteem to having to deal with low-self-esteem, which could also cause me to doubt myself.   

I rather go in knowing that I'm trying to figure how something works vs going thinking that I know, when I really don't.  I think this same feeling is something that got me in big trouble.


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's a picture. What's the point of it? That sport isn't hurting combat.



And that looks lot like kabib nurkanurkanurka on the right there. Who would be a pretty devastating street fighter.


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> What MA teaches to retreat on your heels?



Ones that don't train real time sparring mostly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To assume that your opponent wont
> 
> - punch your head in pure wrestling, or
> - catch your kicking leg and sweep you down in TKD match
> ...


They are only wrong training if you are training for combat. They are perfectly valid training for sport context. Again, not everyone trains for defensive/combat usage. If someone is training specifically for high school wrestling (which a lot of kids in the US do), then assuming your opponent won't punch your head is a valid assumption - it's against the rules. That sport context doesn't have to negatively affect those of us who train for self-defense. I can still pick up some useful techniques and principles from competition wrestling, though I have to filter them through the context I train for. So I might actually train to do the technique in a way that is "wrong" for their context (exposes a leg more to takedowns, for instance) but is more "right" for my context (protects my head from punches).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And that looks lot like kabib nurkanurkanurka on the right there. Who would be a pretty devastating street fighter.


There are a lot of pure wrestlers out there I'd hate to get into a "real" fight with.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Ones that don't train real time sparring mostly.


Even those tend to teach keeping weight more forward than that. Their problem is they usually aren't used to backing up under pressure, so they end up (literally) on their heels because they pull their head back faster than they can step, out of fear of getting hit.


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## Martial D (Apr 29, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> What MA teaches to retreat on your heels?


None that I know of. It's mostly an expression.

However once you start moving backwards and your opponent starts following and pressing with strikes, you'll probably find yourself literally on your heels after a couple steps, regardless of who taught you what. 

This is why boxers, kickboxers and MMA fighters(and anyone else that includes sparring with contact in their curriculum) will teach you to angle out rather than retreat backwards.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So, people can't practice something for their own purposes? They aren't allowed to have their own view of an art and focus on the parts (and application) of that art that fit their personal pursuit?



Sure. I'm not talking about the person. I'm talking about a ruleset that encourages people to do stupid, useless things.
Sparring is good. We do a lot of sparring. And I've done more than a few tournaments. 
That is precisely _*why*_ I believe that rules that encourage useless/stupid techniques are idiotic.



pdg said:


> So really, because I'm not doing it to be "combat ready" and aiming to make sure every move I make is effective at damaging someone I should hand in my belt and cancel my membership?



Nope. But you shouldn't call the useless stuff you do for the sake of points TKD. 



> I could buy a lot of custard filled doughnuts with the money...



Those would, at least, provide some degree of nutrition. Stupid kicks don't provide anything useless. And rules that encourage/reward them are bad.



pdg said:


> Now that's the other thing, defining what is and what isn't "part of TKD" is almost impossible.



Not really. If it's an effective kick, there's no reason not to consider it part of TKD. If it isn't, then it's not.
Simple.



> One could look at the list of techniques contained within the patterns and decide that constitutes the entire art.



Which patterns? I know about 50 TKD patterns. I can't honestly think of any useful movement I could make that isn't included in one or more of them.



> The stuff that scores points does so because it's in the ruleset - not because it's definitively representative of the core of the art.



And if that ruleset rewards useless technique, it's bad. And should be changed.

I'd much rather forfeit than score with a useless kick.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Even those tend to teach keeping weight more forward than that. Their problem is they usually aren't used to backing up under pressure, so they end up (literally) on their heels because they pull their head back faster than they can step, out of fear of getting hit.



By not training under pressure. That result will happen.


----------



## Buka (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There are a lot of pure wrestlers out there I'd hate to get into a "real" fight with.



I hate wrestlers, they never get tired. If you’re going to train with one, bring food.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2018)

Buka said:


> I hate wrestlers, they never get tired. If you’re going to train with one, bring food.



And while they're eating it, sucker punch them?


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

I'll lump these together...



Dirty Dog said:


> But you shouldn't call the useless stuff you do for the sake of points TKD.





Dirty Dog said:


> Those would, at least, provide some degree of nutrition. Stupid kicks don't provide anything useless. And rules that encourage/reward them are bad.





Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. If it's an effective kick, there's no reason not to consider it part of TKD. If it isn't, then it's not.
> Simple.



You'll have to define "useless" or "effective" for me, because I think we have different views.

As I've previously said, some things that I do I consider throwaway moves. By themselves, they'll "do" nothing.

But if they help get you in position, or distract as part of setting up a following move - are they still useless?

I can do a silly little dance, that's useless - but if it makes someone pause so I can add a punch on the end? Still useless?

I wouldn't call it "a TKD technique", but y'know, maybe effective 



Dirty Dog said:


> Which patterns? I know about 50 TKD patterns. I can't honestly think of any useful movement I could make that isn't included in one or more of them.



And yet, I'll bet there are useful things outwith those patterns.

Also, I'll bet there's more than a few things that you can't apply directly - so they must be useless.



Dirty Dog said:


> And if that ruleset rewards useless technique, it's bad. And should be changed.
> 
> I'd much rather forfeit than score with a useless kick.



Again, what exactly constitutes useless - and how do you know whether something you can use I can't, or I can make something effective that you can't perform?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'll lump these together...



Good idea.



> You'll have to define "useless" or "effective" for me, because I think we have different views.



Maybe. Maybe not.



> As I've previously said, some things that I do I consider throwaway moves. By themselves, they'll "do" nothing.
> 
> But if they help get you in position, or distract as part of setting up a following move - are they still useless?



Nope. Then they're part of a strategy.



> I can do a silly little dance, that's useless - but if it makes someone pause so I can add a punch on the end? Still useless?



Probably not. But if it gets you punched 90% of the time, does nothing 8% of the time, and helps you 2% of the time, then probably so.



> And yet, I'll bet there are useful things outwith those patterns.
> Also, I'll bet there's more than a few things that you can't apply directly - so they must be useless.



Examples?



> Again, what exactly constitutes useless - and how do you know whether something you can use I can't, or I can make something effective that you can't perform?



Given the specific example, you said yourself that it was useless for anything other than scoring a point under a messed up set of rules.
Shame on me for taking you at your word.


----------



## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Probably not. But if it gets you punched 90% of the time, does nothing 8% of the time, and helps you 2% of the time, then probably so.



Well, I'm at 50/50 with success - first time it worked flawlessly.

Second time my opponent landed a punch - maybe jazz hands weren't required... But hey, he laughed so much he fell over.

(Did I mention I don't always take it 100% seriously? There's a few of us that'll play about a bit.)



Dirty Dog said:


> Examples?



For "direct effectiveness" and exactly as performed, anything in slow motion for a start.



Dirty Dog said:


> Given the specific example, you said yourself that it was useless for anything other than scoring a point under a messed up set of rules.
> Shame on me for taking you at your word.



Ah there we go - I assumed you meant what good was it, in isolation. For that, it would have scored, not much more.

Secondarily though, it obtained a release and got me through to a different position where I was in a position to attack and he wasn't without moving.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> For "direct effectiveness" and exactly as performed, anything in slow motion for a start.



Doing the movement in slow motion during a form doesn't mean the movement is ineffective. The purpose of the form is to teach the movement, and doing it slowly can be beneficial. 



> Ah there we go - I assumed you meant what good was it, in isolation. For that, it would have scored, not much more.



And I will continue to maintain that it shouldn't. Ineffective strikes are just that - ineffective. And should not be rewarded with points.



> Secondarily though, it obtained a release and got me through to a different position where I was in a position to attack and he wasn't without moving.



I don't have  any problem with this. Do a backflip with a double twist if you like. But you shouldn't get points. Unless it's a gymnastics competition.


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Doing the movement in slow motion during a form doesn't mean the movement is ineffective. The purpose of the form is to teach the movement, and doing it slowly can be beneficial.



I didn't say it couldn't be beneficial, just that as it's performed in the pattern it has no directly applicable use.

How often does anyone do anything exactly as it appears in a pattern anyway? I'm talking position, stance, entry and exit - the lot.

You might do something that can be interpreted as "x move from y pattern", but if it's using a different stance or a different reaction hand position (for instance) then it's technically not that move and not from that pattern.

My point was that I consider them to be an important part of the art, but that they don't constitute the entirety of it.



Dirty Dog said:


> And I will continue to maintain that it shouldn't. Ineffective strikes are just that - ineffective. And should not be rewarded with points.



Honestly, it doesn't bother me either way whether it scores or not. If I'm doing something for a particular purpose and it scores, bonus. If it doesn't score, it doesn't mean I discard it if it still has another use (like a backflip, which I can nearly do...)

If there's something ineffective that scores, work on defence against it to reduce the percentage - if you can't defend against it then really it deserves to score.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> And while they're eating it, sucker punch them?


sounds like a plan


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> How often does anyone do anything exactly as it appears in a pattern anyway? I'm talking position, stance, entry and exit - the lot.


Depends on who you are talking to when asking that question.  The application of position, stance, entry and exit however is often developed during sparring. In terms of movement. I would have to say that many times it's exactly the same, it just doesn't look the exactly the same because the resistance changes it look.  There has been an increase of videos like this. 




Keep in mind when people do forms there is no resistance.  It's been my personal experience that the movement starts off like it does in the form but when resistance hits (about halfway through the drive of the movement) the look changes.  If you don't get the initial movement correct at the beginning of the drive then you risk having an inefficient technique. You can often mess up and counter your opponent's techniques simply by changing how that technique begins.  Stopping punches and kicks at the beginning or taking away a person's root would be an example of that.



pdg said:


> but if it's using a different stance or a different reaction hand position (for instance) then it's technically not that move and not from that pattern.


This is correct technically but in fight application, fighting like you are doing a form will get you killed.  Think of forms as a library of techniques from which you can use and apply in various situations.  Resistance will change how deep a stance is but the understanding of how to keep the root while applying the technique will be the same as when practicing the form.   A bow stance can be deep or shallow.   As you train your stances you should be aware of how your balance shifts while holding the stance and how the weight feels on your feet.  Once you have developed the ability to detect those slight shifts and correct the slight shifts, then you will be able to use that same ability in fighting.   This is what stays the same and not the look of the stance. 

There's a lot about martial arts that won't make sense until you spar and actually try to use the techniques.  Trying to use the techniques in sparring will help you better understand what is going on in the forms and how the non-sparring training is really benefiting you.  But you have to try to use the techniques instead of just trying to use only what's easy to do.


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

@JowGaWolf - that's agreed in a way.

Some people will see things I do and be able to link them to moves in a pattern.

Other people won't make the connection because it looks different.

Someone who says that only things contained in patterns/forms (with only superficial knowledge) could look at me and state that I'm not doing TKD.

A few things from the patterns I've had exposure to are directly applicable and look the same, other things change with resistance and look different, other things I just can't get to work at all (but someone else might).

Arguably, there are also some that I need to tweak to suit my movement and capability, which technically makes it something not "in the library of moves" (without significant research and reinterpretation) - is it any less part of the art?


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## Buka (Apr 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> (Did I mention I don't always take it 100% seriously? There's a few of us that'll play about a bit.)



As tactically important, dangerous, serious, whatever  - if you take things too seriously mentally, you're f'd.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> None that I know of. It's mostly an expression.
> 
> However once you start moving backwards and your opponent starts following and pressing with strikes, you'll probably find yourself literally on your heels after a couple steps, regardless of who taught you what.
> 
> This is why boxers, kickboxers and MMA fighters(and anyone else that includes sparring with contact in their curriculum) will teach you to angle out rather than retreat backwards.



I've been seeing that answer a lot in this thread.  I sorry, but to me it sounds a little lame (no pun intended).  I don't think it is an expression since it is a possible outcome for a lack of training or experience.  YMMV.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> They are only wrong training if you are training for combat. They are perfectly valid training for sport context. Again, not everyone trains for defensive/combat usage. If someone is training specifically for high school wrestling (which a lot of kids in the US do), then assuming your opponent won't punch your head is a valid assumption - it's against the rules. That sport context doesn't have to negatively affect those of us who train for self-defense. I can still pick up some useful techniques and principles from competition wrestling, though I have to filter them through the context I train for. So I might actually train to do the technique in a way that is "wrong" for their context (exposes a leg more to takedowns, for instance) but is more "right" for my context (protects my head from punches).



I keep trying to wrap my head around a martial art that isn't a martial art, even though it is supposedly based on a martial art.  I keep trying to think it out but my head starts hurting.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The technique itself is "combat ready"   the only variance should be the power that is put into applying it.  The mindset shouldn't have any baring on the technique itself.  The mindset will have baring on the power that is put into a technique.   For example,  a jab in point sparring is not the same power as a jab in a street fight or full contact.   It's the same dangerous technique but not the same power.



How things change.  During the brief time I studied TKD, we were taught to always move with maximum power.  It was sort of a mantra with Mr. Rhee to the effect; "Always move with maximum power, always seek a new maximum."  We were also taught to be able to strike where we intended.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> How things change.  During the brief time I studied TKD, we were taught to always move with maximum power.  It was sort of a mantra with Mr. Rhee to the effect; "Always move with maximum power, always seek a new maximum."  We were also taught to be able to strike where we intended.



The problem with this is that it results in too many injuries. And difficulty finding sparring partners. Solid contact, yes. Every possible bit of power I can deliver? No. I like the people I spar with.


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## Martial D (Apr 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I've been seeing that answer a lot in this thread.  I sorry, but to me it sounds a little lame (no pun intended).  I don't think it is an expression since it is a possible outcome for a lack of training or experience.  YMMV.


Have you sparred with gloves before? If it's part of your routine just try it. Have your partner storm you with a flurry and move straight backwards. You'll find it difficult to be on your toes, and difficult to do much but cover up. Then reverse the situation. You'll find it easier to land. It's just physics.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> The problem with this is that it results in too many injuries. And difficulty finding sparring partners. Solid contact, yes. Every possible bit of power I can deliver? No. I like the people I spar with.



Understood.  However, we were required to keep a certain distance. Two or three inches from a practice opponent until we got more consistency in striking where we should.  Even at green belt I wasn't much closer tht 1 1/2 inches in strikes, and more space in kicks.  But there was a constant, if slow, improvement.


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## drop bear (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> any problem with this. Do a backflip with a double twist if you like. But you shouldn't get points. Unless it's a gymnastics competition



Or unless you flog the guy with it.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Have you sparred with gloves before? If it's part of your routine just try it. Have your partner storm you with a flurry and move straight backwards. You'll find it difficult to be on your toes, and difficult to do much but cover up. Then reverse the situation. You'll find it easier to land. It's just physics.



Never did spar with gloves.  It wasn't done back then.  When I studied TKD, my recollection is that nobody would retreat more than two steps without a counter attack.  And retreat or not, if anyone began ending up on their heels, there would be some retraining.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Or unless you flog the guy with it.



Nope. No backflip, and no double twist. Nice try though..........


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Nope. No backflip, and no double twist. Nice try though..........



Dammit, stop moving the goalposts.

Flip I might be able to manage.

Double twist - I'm too damn old for that.


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## Martial D (Apr 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Never did spar with gloves.  It wasn't done back then.  When I studied TKD, my recollection is that nobody would retreat more than two steps without a counter attack.  And retreat or not, if anyone began ending up on their heels, there would be some retraining.


Yes, I agree being 'on your heels' is unequivocally bad. This is why it's important to practice angling out rather than retreating straight backwards. It's an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure situation. Bad position is better avoided than mitigated


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I keep trying to wrap my head around a martial art that isn't a martial art, even though it is supposedly based on a martial art.  I keep trying to think it out but my head starts hurting.


The term I used to use was “martial sport”. I don’t now, because there’s too much overlap and difficulty in defining the difference. But any combat system can be turned into a game/sport. The rules should be based on the purpose of the game. If the point is to train fighting ability, rules should favor combat-effective techniques and strategies. If the point is fitness, the rules should favor stamina and perhaps strength. If the point is speed, the rules should favor speed (possibly punishing power by exclusion). If the point is fun and/or entertainment, the rules probably ought to favor flashy moves. 

I have no problem with any of those. I could see any combat system being the base for any of them. Perhaps DD’s point about naming is all it comes down to. Perhaps “Sport TKD” would be a useful name if someone wanted to teach purely for sport, to distinguish it from the root art.


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

So we've had the target shooting discussion.

Javelin anyone?


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## Mitlov (Apr 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Understood.  However, we were required to keep a certain distance. Two or three inches from a practice opponent until we got more consistency in striking where we should.  Even at green belt I wasn't much closer tht 1 1/2 inches in strikes, and more space in kicks.  But there was a constant, if slow, improvement.



Personally, I would rather train with accurate distance but with reduced power (when the target is another person instead of a pad) instead of full power but extended distance.  In an adrenaline situation, I trust myself to dial up the power more than I trust myself to adjust distance.

Totally agree that sparring with both proper distance and full power can lead to an injury rate that just doesn't work for a lot of people beyond 30 years of age.  I don't mind contact, I don't mind bruises, but actual injuries mean no training, and that's bad.  Anecdote time: at a tournament this weekend, a young strong guy went harder than I interpret "light contact" to be with his kicks, and dislocated my shoulder when I blocked a kick aimed for my head.  I'm now out of practice for at least a week or two until it heals.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Personally, I would rather train with accurate distance but with reduced power (when the target is another person instead of a pad) instead of full power but extended distance.  In an adrenaline situation, I trust myself to dial up the power more than I trust myself to adjust distance.
> 
> Totally agree that sparring with both proper distance and full power can lead to an injury rate that just doesn't work for a lot of people beyond 30 years of age.  I don't mind contact, I don't mind bruises, but actual injuries mean no training, and that's bad.  Anecdote time: at a tournament this weekend, a young strong guy went harder than I interpret "light contact" to be with his kicks, and dislocated my shoulder when I blocked a kick aimed for my head.  I'm now out of practice for at least a week or two until it heals.



Then I guess you are correct in continuing to train as you do.  Since it was the way I was first taught and learned, I think the way I described was better.  Everybody gets to make their own choices in training.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I've been seeing that answer a lot in this thread.  I sorry, but to me it sounds a little lame (no pun intended).  I don't think it is an expression since it is a possible outcome for a lack of training or experience.  YMMV.


It's an expression look it up.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 30, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Personally, I would rather train with accurate distance but with reduced power (when the target is another person instead of a pad) instead of full power but extended distance.  In an adrenaline situation, I trust myself to dial up the power more than I trust myself to adjust distance.
> 
> Totally agree that sparring with both proper distance and full power can lead to an injury rate that just doesn't work for a lot of people beyond 30 years of age.  I don't mind contact, I don't mind bruises, but actual injuries mean no training, and that's bad.  Anecdote time: at a tournament this weekend, a young strong guy went harder than I interpret "light contact" to be with his kicks, and dislocated my shoulder when I blocked a kick aimed for my head.  I'm now out of practice for at least a week or two until it heals.


sorry to hear that. Not being able to practice due to an injury sucks.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 30, 2018)

The moves that you tweet to suit you is what I would call personalizations.  I don't try to classify anything that looks like a personalized movement.  Some techniques must be done a certain way or the technique will fail or be less effective.  There Is very little that one can do to personalize a jab and still have the jab to be effective.  A good example of this would be a back sweep.  There is a limited number of way for back leg sweep to work and be effective.   Which is why it looks the same across other systems that use it.


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## CB Jones (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> And while they're eating it, sucker punch them?



Ah.... I see you also practice the art of Jones-itsu-whohitu.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 30, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The moves that you tweet to suit you is what I would call personalizations.  I don't try to classify anything that looks like a personalized movement.  Some techniques must be done a certain way or the technique will fail or be less effective.  There Is very little that one can do to personalize a jab and still have the jab to be effective.  A good example of this would be a back sweep.  There is a limited number of way for back leg sweep to work and be effective.   Which is why it looks the same across other systems that use it.


Should be tweak and not tweet.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's an expression look it up.



I know that.  But expressions should be applied appropriately.  My point was that I didn't think the expression several of the members here have used was applied correctly to the situation.  If you or they disagree so be it.  We are just in disagreement.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Should be tweak and not tweet.



No matter, it doesn't make any more sense either way.    Just kidding, sorry, I couldn't resist.  

Now I understand what you are saying and just feel silly I couldn't figure it out on my own.  Thanks for clarifying for dummies like me.  

And I can now agree with your statement.  But personalizations, where allowed, can be useful.  In the TKD I studied, there was only one way to do things and we all had to learn that way.  In the Hapkido I studied, we were taught what was accepted as the best way to do a technique, but allowed to make minor changes to let us made the technique workable for us if need be.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Personally, I would rather train with accurate distance but with reduced power (when the target is another person instead of a pad) instead of full power but extended distance.  In an adrenaline situation, I trust myself to dial up the power more than I trust myself to adjust distance.
> 
> Totally agree that sparring with both proper distance and full power can lead to an injury rate that just doesn't work for a lot of people beyond 30 years of age.  I don't mind contact, I don't mind bruises, but actual injuries mean no training, and that's bad.  Anecdote time: at a tournament this weekend, a young strong guy went harder than I interpret "light contact" to be with his kicks, and dislocated my shoulder when I blocked a kick aimed for my head.  I'm now out of practice for at least a week or two until it heals.


At least you managed to get injured doing martial arts. My current shoulder injury is from walking down the ramp from my deck. Don't ask - most of my injuries come from doing the least dangerous stuff in life.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Should be tweak and not tweet.


As long as it's not twerk...


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> No matter, it doesn't make any more sense either way.    Just kidding, sorry, I couldn't resist.
> 
> Now I understand what you are saying and just feel silly I couldn't figure it out on my own.  Thanks for clarifying for dummies like me.
> 
> And I can now agree with your statement.  But personalizations, where allowed, can be useful.  In the TKD I studied, there was only one way to do things and we all had to learn that way.  In the Hapkido I studied, we were taught what was accepted as the best way to do a technique, but allowed to make minor changes to let us made the technique workable for us if need be.


For beginners, a "one right way" approach can be easier to assimilate. Once competency starts to develop, technique should be assessed on effectiveness and expression of the principles.


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## jobo (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> At least you managed to get injured doing martial arts. My current shoulder injury is from walking down the ramp from my deck. Don't ask - most of my injuries come from doing the least dangerous stuff in life.


Decks are very dangerous, can't tell the number of times I've skidded on a wet decking , or worse on a squashed Snail, lethal


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2018)

jobo said:


> Decks are very dangerous, can't tell the number of times I've skidded on a wet decking , or worse on a squashed Snail, lethal


Had this one only been wet (as the stated temperature of 36F should have indicated), I'd have been fine. Apparently, it was colder than 36F on this ramp at the time. Oddly, I didn't even realize I'd injured my shoulder until days later. Not sure how I missed that fact.


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> At least you managed to get injured doing martial arts. My current shoulder injury is from walking down the ramp from my deck. Don't ask - most of my injuries come from doing the least dangerous stuff in life.



I pulled my thumb and it hurt for days.

The cause? Pulling up my daughter's sock while shoe shopping...


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## jobo (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Had this one only been wet (as the stated temperature of 36F should have indicated), I'd have been fine. Apparently, it was colder than 36F on this ramp at the time. Oddly, I didn't even realize I'd injured my shoulder until days later. Not sure how I missed that fact.


Yea decks with their own micro climate are the worse


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> How things change.  During the brief time I studied TKD, we were taught to always move with maximum power.  It was sort of a mantra with Mr. Rhee to the effect; "Always move with maximum power, always seek a new maximum."  We were also taught to be able to strike where we intended.



On a sad note, GM Joon Rhee passed away this morning. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> I pulled my thumb and it hurt for days.
> 
> The cause? Pulling up my daughter's sock while shoe shopping...


lol.   the small things that mess us up.


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## CB Jones (Apr 30, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> On a sad note, GM Joon Rhee passed away this morning.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks.

GM Rhee is who promoted the founder of my son’s style in the early 50s

RIP to the Father of TKD in America


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> On a sad note, GM Joon Rhee passed away this morning.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just heard this on the news a few minutes.  Sad.  I studied with him for around a year starting in late 1964 or early 1965.  He was an incredibly good and patient teacher and astounding martial artist.  At that time he had a school in Texas we were told he had left in the care of a student.  The school where he taught at that time was on the third floor of a building at Connecticut and S Street in Washington, DC.  No air conditioning, but we did have a combined locker room and shower.  I don't recall now if we also had facilities for women, but it did not matter since we didn't have any women students.

He had two signature kicks.  One was a side kick to the face, with a slight pulling twice and a kick again.  He was so fast and powerful that his gi would slap his calf 3 times with a loud snap.  He would then stop and hold that stance a moment before recovering.  The other was a flat-footed jump kick straight up and kicking a ball suspended from the ceiling.  The ball was about 8 feet high.  You cannot imagine how great it felt on that night that I finally was able to just barley kick and touch the ball after a run and jump.  He had another move he didn't demonstrate often.  He would jump with both legs, pushing off mostly with his back leg, but using both.  He would land smoothly and jump again.  He could jump like that for several jumps until he had to stop for the wall.  I don't know if I have described that so it sounds as good as it looked.

I only saw him once after that when I was able to see him open a new school in northern Virginia.  That was after he had begun teaching forms to music.  It was good to see him even if he didn't remember me (why would he after some 20 years).  But he was gracious as always.

I will miss him.


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