# Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 3, 2006)




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## MJS (Oct 4, 2006)

Great clip James, as always! Thanks for posting it!


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## arnisador (Oct 4, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> "Though I teach 'martial arts' there is a reason the word martial comes first, because that's what's most important. The 'art' is a secondary side-effect of proper form in fighting." -- James Hawkins



I love this quote! I intend to steal it. It expresses my feelings precisely.

I must say, the clip is classic Kenpo to my mind...uke not only stands stock-still after a single punch, he even drops his guard _before _the first blow lands. It doesn't make for a compelling demonstration, to my mind.


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## Monadnock (Oct 4, 2006)

Haha..maybe you mean modern Kenpo. Although, that's Frank Trejo and if I were the guy in the vid, I'd be glad he wasn't hittin' me full force.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 4, 2006)

arnisador said:


> I love this quote! I intend to steal it. It expresses my feelings precisely.
> 
> I must say, the clip is classic Kenpo to my mind...uke not only stands stock-still after a single punch, he even drops his guard _before _the first blow lands. It doesn't make for a compelling demonstration, to my mind.


 
Can you please post some demos or links of "technique demonstrations" and not sparring from any system where the uke DOES NOT stand there and offer little to no resistance?  Even Jiu Jitsu/Ju Jitsu "technique demos" show the Uke offering no resistance so as to facilitate a clean technique as an example for people wondering what the system is about.

I hear this comment all the time but I never see anything from any system to the contrary and I would really like to so I can understand this comment when I see it.

And steal away on the quote


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## Robert Lee (Oct 4, 2006)

Looks like something for training. But not street effective. No resistive motion at all. Its much easyer to show somthing this way But to do it for reall It would not happen. But as said for training The video has merit there. If M/A fighting was that easy No M/A would ever get beat down as many do when they fight on the streets in a real deal action. Sorry but its demo style action.


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 4, 2006)

Robert Lee said:


> Looks like something for training. But not street effective. No resistive motion at all. Its much easyer to show somthing this way But to do it for reall It would not happen. But as said for training The video has merit there. If M/A fighting was that easy No M/A would ever get beat down as many do when they fight on the streets in a real deal action. Sorry but its demo style action.


Frankly  the video is not Frank at his best but the funny thing is that street fighting is what Frank Trejo is really good at. When I had the opportunity to work with him Frank Trejo was smooth fast, powerful and resistance was not an option. let's hope we can find some genuinely good videos of Frank.

Jeff


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Can you please post some demos or links of "technique demonstrations" and not sparring from any system where the uke DOES NOT stand there and offer little to no resistance? Even Jiu Jitsu/Ju Jitsu "technique demos" show the Uke offering no resistance so as to facilitate a clean technique as an example for people wondering what the system is about.
> 
> I hear this comment all the time but I never see anything from any system to the contrary and I would really like to so I can understand this comment when I see it.


 
Here's my take on this.

In order to demonstrate the technique, in its theoretical form, the Uke has to sort of stand there and let it happen to him.  But this is less noticeable when the formal life of the technique is 2-4 moves and no more.  There is an initial attack which triggers a defensive or evasive repositioning with some sort of block or deflection, and then one to three counter strikes or throws of some kind.  It is quick, decisive, and over in a blink.   

Now take a look at many kenpo techniques that have 5-15 followup strikes and throws and kicks and whatnot.  This is where it begins to look rediculous to the observer.  Uke stands there and makes no reaction whatsoever to the dozen or so strikes that come his way.  He doesn't try to defend against them, and he (often) doesn't even react as if he has been hit.  He just stands there while the guy moves up and down his body with his hands and feet.

So when demonstrating or teaching a tech, uke needs to cooperate.  I think it is just the lengthy follow-ups that kenpo likes so much that go overboard.  Now I know that these extra followups are meant to teach other options, things that could be used in other situations as well as the one that the original tech is designed for.

But I believe that you cannot preplan a tech out that far.  You are making some HUGE assumptions about how a person will react, for way too many moves.  You cannot predict that with any realistic accuracy.  I think the techs are a good way to teach ideas on how to deal with an attack.  But they should not be so long and unrealistically extensive.  So keep the evasion move, keep the defense of the original attack, then limit the followup counterstrikes to no more than 2 or 3, 'cause beyond that I think you are making a lot of unrealistic assumptions.  After that, I think we just need to learn to be spontaneous 'cause fighting doesn't happen based on a formula, and kenpo techs are kind of formulaic.

So getting back to your comment, James, I think a compliant uke in jujitsu is getting wrapped up and controlled quickly.  They don't have any opportunity to just stand there and get beat upon.  The jujitsu techs are designed to gain control quickly and decisively, so it is over quickly.  Any further followups in the jujitsu setting would be applied to an uke who has been physically rendered incapable of escape.  He is tied up.  But in kenpo, often the uke has not been decisively controlled yet.  We are just taking on faith that all those punches are landing and having a devastating effect.  But if they are, then there is no need for the extra dozen followups.  So to an outside observer, it can look silly.  And I say this as a kenpo guy myself.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 4, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Here's my take on this.
> 
> In order to demonstrate the technique, in its theoretical form, the Uke has to sort of stand there and let it happen to him. But this is less noticeable when the formal life of the technique is 2-4 moves and no more. There is an initial attack which triggers a defensive or evasive repositioning with some sort of block or deflection, and then one to three counter strikes or throws of some kind. It is quick, decisive, and over in a blink.
> 
> ...


 
Michael as usual I agree with most of what you said *except this part*.

1) Ju Jitsu Techniques gain control no quicker than a Kenpo technique, actually it's even slower on average as it takes more time to set a lock, htrow or pin than it does to kick someone in the nuts and watch them bend over for example.  I don't understand how people can think that a grab can control but a strike can't.  They both use force and direction.  Fighting isn't 100% predictable but it's damn close.  If i grab your wrist and I'm experienced in wrist grabs I'm familiar with most of the ways you can try to free your wrist.  If I've kicked someone in the knee hundres of times I'm familiar with the many ways their body can react.  Therefore I can react accordingly regardless of if it's a grab or strike.  It's all the same to me but my Kenpo Ju Jitsu mind might be biased 

2) It's very difficult to place someone in a position where they are rendered "incapable of escape".  Escapes are numerous all the way until that last few inches of a concession hold. And even then it's only when the hold is done right.

3) Kenpo techniques don't assume each strike has a devastating effect.  This comment comes from not having a lot of experience with EPAK as you've stated repeatedly so it's an uniformed comment (no disrepect or jab intended as I read that and it sounded harsh).  In short it's a double edged sword.  If the technique goes as planned the move realistically ends at moves 1-5 (approx.).  If not you go to the next 5-15 moves.  So you need an extended technique in case something goes wrong so you practice it.  But if nothing goes wrong the extended technique is never needed.  It's like if you have one you can't have the other. Can't have cake and eat it too kind of deal. IF opponent reacts to strike A is manner A e do move A, IF he reacts in manner B we do move B, etc. NOT we hit opponent with move A and HE WILL 100% react in manner A.

4) Uke's stand there and "do nothing" often to avoid injury.  It's difficult to react to every strike and not get injured in the process while someone is throwing several strikes a second.  Also it's hard to strike an opponent repeatedly and not hurt them while still hitting them hard enough to illicit the IDEAL reaction.  Another double edged sword that's present in ALL systems.  has anyone seen Ju Jitsu done FULL SPEED. Hint UFC fighters and grapplers in competition never do which is what accounts for some of the escapes and such.

5) This part is exactly what the techniques are for and the length is to get people accustomed to moving continuously.  If I have 100+ combinations of techniques 15+ moves long in "muscle memory" how hard is it to come up with one 2-5 move technique when I need it.  If all I practice are 5 shot deals what happens when I need 7 and I've never trained for it?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Michael as usual I agree with most of what you said *except this part*.
> 
> 1) Ju Jitsu Techniques gain control no quicker than a Kenpo technique, actually it's even slower on average as it takes more time to set a lock, htrow or pin than it does to kick someone in the nuts and watch them bend over for example. I don't understand how people can think that a grab can control but a strike can't. They both use force and direction. Fighting isn't 100% predictable but it's damn close. If i grab your wrist and I'm experienced in wrist grabs I'm familiar with most of the ways you can try to free your wrist. If I've kicked someone in the knee hundres of times I'm familiar with the many ways their body can react. Therefore I can react accordingly regardless of if it's a grab or strike. It's all the same to me but my Kenpo Ju Jitsu mind might be biased
> 
> ...


 
Fair enough, my jujitsu/judo experience is tremendously limited so I'm not in any position to really argue that.  I was just thinking about the nature of the art, in that it focuses on the grapples and controls rather than the strikes.  Even in a cooperative training/demonstrating situation, I think it is easier to see and experience whether or not a grappling tech is working.  When dealing with strikes in a training/demonstrating situation, because of the safety factor, their effectiveness needs to be taken on faith.  When an outsider watches this, if taken to the extreme with many many follow-ups, it certainly can look silly.  Proof of this is in how many outsiders comment on this.  We have seen it over an over right here on Martialtalk.  Arnisador's comment in this thread is certainly not the first.

With regard to some other comments you make, I just posted similar comments in another thread here, regarding why kenpo has so many follow-up strikes.  I personally think it's erroneous logic to think this realistically plans for things that don't go right.  The way the techs are designed, you cannot launch the next move in the tech unless the prior move worked.  The sequence is built in that way.  If something goes wrong at point C, you need to change and do something completely different.  You can't just move on to points D thru F, because D won't work when C failed, and your "launch platform" isn't there.  When things go wrong, I think you just need to be spontaneously creative.

Here's another thought:  How about Dance of Death.  We both have this one in EPAK and in Tracys.  There is a whole lot of stuff in there that just goes on and on.  After you throw the guy down backwards and knifehand the groin, you wrench his ankle and flip him over onto his belly and jump up and down on his spine and kidneys a few times.  All this is done after you have defended his original punch, hit him in the groin, and slammed him on his back.  OK, so if all these follow-ups are an insurance policy in case something goes wrong, then really none of it works from the point where something goes wrong.  If you fail to slam him on his back, you can't wrench him over by his ankle and jump up and down on his spine.  From the point of failure, the rest doesn't line up.  From the point of failure, you need to do something else, if he is still coming after you.  Maybe the block and the shot to the groin worked well enough and it's over, but if not, the rest of it will never happen because one aspect of the technique failed.  The rest is not insurance against failure.  It just gets thrown out because you and the opponent are not positioned to continue as planned.  So you get creative and do something else.

I think we should ask ourselves a question, and we can use Dance of Death as an example:  Has ANYONE, ANYWHERE, EVER, done Dance of Death on somebody, for REAL, from start to finish?  On the Street? In the Schoolyard? During a Face-off Fight?  During an Ambushing Attack?  In the UFC? In a Tournament?  In a sparring match in the dojo with a resisting sparring partner (I certainly hope not!)?  I am not omniscient, but I really suspect the answer is a big, resounding "NO".  So why do we keep a technique like this, with all this extra stuff that nobody has ever actually used?  Let's look at the part that is really useful, I would say up to the point of body-slamming him on his back.  Then just finish with a stomp to the groin and call it a day.  The rest of it is all pure theory.  Maybe it's sound in theory, but it never gets used, and probably never will, at least not in the context of this technique.  Sure, it CAN work (theoretically), but it will never actually happen.

If you ever throw someone down and need to make sure they don't get up, just kick him in the ribs and head a few times until you are content.  That's what I would do.  I would never do a big scripted sequence like the last half of Dance of Death.


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## arnisador (Oct 4, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Michael as usual I agree with most of what you said



Yes, that was a good point of view on the issue. Let me also add that I am questioning the instructor's abilities--just commenting on what I saw.

I'll reiterate and expand on my complaint: In addition to what was mentioned, in most techniques one or both of the uke's hands were down near his waist _prior to the first counterstrike landing_. That's target-shooting, not trying to hit a live, defended target. Watch it again, and look at uke's other hand. It's usually inches from being put in his pocket, rather than up where a.) it might interfere with a punch to his head, or b.) it might pose a danger of a counterattack or immediate follow-on attack. Where's the jab/cross attack in this sequence? The windmill-style puncher? That's the concern, I think.



> Fighting isn't 100% predictable but it's damn close.  If i grab your wrist and I'm experienced in wrist grabs I'm familiar with most of the ways you can try to free your wrist.  If I've kicked someone in the knee hundres of times I'm familiar with the many ways their body can react.


I might agree partially on the wrsit grab, but I think fighting--especially against a beginner/untrained person--is _very _unpredictable. Also, how often do you kick someone's knee hard enough to cause a true reaction? Usually one must pull it in practice...meaning info. about how your opponent will react is missing.



> If the technique goes as planned the move realistically ends at moves 1-5 (approx.).  If not you go to the next 5-15 moves.  So you need an extended technique in case something goes wrong so you practice it.


If somethin goes wrong...the sequence you've practiced will no longer be applicable. Put another way, if what you say is true, why do boxing matches go 10+ rounds?



> Uke's stand there and "do nothing" often to avoid injury.  It's difficult to react to every strike and not get injured in the process while someone is throwing several strikes a second.  Also it's hard to strike an opponent repeatedly and not hurt them while still hitting them hard enough to illicit the IDEAL reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 4, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> The way the techs are designed, you cannot launch the next move in the tech unless the prior move worked. The sequence is built in that way. If something goes wrong at point C, you need to change and do something completely different. You can't just move on to points D thru F, because D won't work when C failed, and your "launch platform" isn't there. *When things go wrong, I think you just need to be spontaneously creative.*


 
Not always.  There are several techniques that can be done irregardless of the responses.  Five Swords comes to mind.  Also Delayed Sword, Alternating Maces, Calming the Storm, etc.  Also alot of the extended techniques are extended because SOMETHING WENT WRONG at VARIOUS points.  This is misinformation of EPAK.  The equation Formula (in oarticular the adjust and regulate portions) allows alot of techniques to go largely unaltered in the face of variables.

Dance of Death is just a lesson in different pinning moves.  All the techniques are just lessons.  The only assumption is that the Kenpo techniques are meant to be used as written in combat.

*Agreed.*


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## Robert Lee (Oct 4, 2006)

Prearranged drills shows possibles Allways a person should open the door by telling the students you can take any of these moves at different times and put something together. Ther is no set delivery method. Yes as for demo. You want to show. Then in resistive motion you still show but The Uke resists you go beyond there action and still get delivery. Every art has prearranged and open drills That is a teaching tool. Its not the video here As I said it shows a teaching format. The Idea is when you start you just keep going until your opponet can not be considered a threat. That is more or lees what kenpo is trying to teach you or anybody. Your sudden responce training is to deliver a fast flurry not a 1  2  delivery. Now as you grow you have to train some resistance to go beyond preformed motion. Then you have a delivery that can be effective in a street action mode. Look at the video. as to what was done. Learn from what was showed. Any move could have been the first strike move in a different order. Distance would have changed probably after the first or second hit. Now which move would have came into play as you had to move in closer while still striking. All I am saying Its good for train at one level Then go beyond it. How at different speed levels of resistive motion. reaction training Next step is what spars light and medium contact.


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## Warrior-Scholar (Oct 4, 2006)

This is a great discussion!
Regarding why boxers only throw 3-4 punches:
If they could use all of their weapons and targets I believe they would throw more than 3 simultaneous strikes!  

Two of my guys decided to full contact box after earning their Orange belts and another after he was 1/2 way through Orange.  I warned them from the beginning!  Anyway, one was victorious, another lost (he and his opponent broke each other's noses) and the third (the least experienced) quit.  My victorious student was almost disqualified - he hit the guy while he was down, threw a spinning back fist and two elbows!  Heck, I would have DQ'ed him!  The last guy almost threw kicks several times.  He was obviously the better technical fighter, but was overwhelmed by the wild swinging without being able to kick or knee. 

What is my point?  Well, we don't spar until they start Purple.  However, after these hard lessons learned, they begged for more intense sparring, thinking it would soothe their wounds (physical and mental).  They were dismayed at the inability to use actual techniques...mainly due to rule constraints.  So, I suggested we just start with Yellow and really provide some unpredictable resistance as Uke while wearing protective gear.  I have always taught my guys about a time for compliance and safety and a time for proper resistance.  But this time we really laid into each other on these techs.  Of course, one still has to watch many of the strikes, but we really try to knock the snot out of each other and fight those armbars, pins etc.  It makes you appreciate the techniques even more!  

How were these techs or at least the principles behind them devised anyway?  Was it always theoretical or did someone actually kick the crap out people to find out?  We are slowly but surely answering these questions for ourselves.  I think every Kenpoist should get in there and box with the boxer, wrestle with the wrestler etc. just to gain some humility, but then spur him or herself on to bigger and better training sessions.  Oh yeah, invite your boxing, grappling and fencing buddies to train with your rules too, it's only fair!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 4, 2006)

"Never box with a boxer; wrestle with a wrestler; or sprint against a sprinter. This is the surest path to defeat or destruction. Change the subject; THAT is the name of the game. If he's a boxer, take him down. If he's a wrestler, break his hands and knees so he can't grab or throw you. If he's a sprinter, go on a long run with him. Never, ever fight a shark in his own water."
- Edmund K. Parker, Founder and Senior GrandMaster of American Kenpo.

In "friendly" challenge matches, Mr. P would knock a kicker to the floor, so they couldn't kick. Or get right up in their faces so they couldn't use distance. In addition to being super bright, he was a smart a$$, which helped him greatly. This same style of making an expert work outside their comfort range was a unique genius he possessed, and encouraged in his students. Unfortunately, most were far too serious to think outside the box, and take some Bugs Bunny approaches to combat (one of his favorite cartoons, he expressed to me on the phone while I was watching sa collection with some friends, was the one where Bugs is in the professional wrestling ring against the Crusher, and keeps thinking up creative ways to work against him).  

Kenpo techniques (and again, this is from Parker) were NEVER MEANT to be used in their entirety. They were simply meant to teach the student how to use their body, so that in an altercation, their creative unsonscious mind would take over and make up a technique on-the-spot that would fit the attack, attacker, environment, and so on. Chapter and verse from II5 I can get, if you insist.

I've stopped posting on many of these things, because so many just don't get it. Trust yourself. That's all. The techniques are not God; they are drills to teach you HOW. But we'll argue to the grave that the drill is only correct with such and such a stance change, or the block done this way instead of that. When the dooky hits the fan, you better darned well be ready to ditch the tech completely, or be ready for pain. Creativity. This is what Mr. Parker tried to foster in his students. The ability to think, followed by the ability to act intuitively.

As for the uke always standing still: Big problem in kenpo training overall. Lets the defender off the hook for proper execution and authority. Paired timing or rythem (sp?) is about getting the uke to react in real time to strikes that penetrate their space, and manipulate their bodies into the positions they should be in (strike manipulation; control manipulation). The first responses in kenpo OUGHT to cancel out an attackers ability to use their next follow-up weapons, as well as forcefullly putting them where they need to be for the next strike or move to have its max impact. Doesn't always work out that way, though. And it shouldn't be about him pretending to lose ability based on position: It should be about nage PLACING him in that weakened position through his actions. Most guys wanna whip through their techs so fast, they forget about placement and positioning. Having dummied for Frank at the memorial IKC after Mr. P's death, I can tell you that, when he wants to, he puts you there just fine. As an observer of this tape, he didn't do it even a little bit. At the risk of having Frank beat my hide, rip me a new one, or send an errand boy to skin my cat, the kenpo in this tape is marginal at best...particularly considering how good I know he is. Seen him do better...pretty much every/any time I've seen him. Don't believe me? Go ahead. Push him. See what happens. Let me know.


And yes...Frank knows quite well about the other hand. Boxed for years before and after his involvement in kenpo. But that wasn't what the tape was about.

Sorry for the rant; just bugs me to see some stuff passed off as "informed kenpo" when it doesn't even remotely reflect the old mans positions; and to see opinions rounded at kenpo based on a poor example. Trejo kicks some major butt...this is just a bad tape.

Regards,

Dave


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## arnisador (Oct 4, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> This same style of making an expert work outside their comfort range was a unique genius he possessed



Unique?!? That's beyond hyperbole...it's outright wrong. Many people understand this idea, best expressed as "Don't invade Russia in the winter." It's not only a standard strategy, it was so long before his birth. Look at the story of the jo being used against Miyamoto Musashi ("Don't fence a fencer.") That having been said, yes, all to many people forget the lesson.



> Kenpo techniques (and again, this is from Parker) were NEVER MEANT to be used in their entirety. They were simply meant to teach the student how to use their body, so that in an altercation, their creative unsonscious mind would take over and make up a technique on-the-spot that would fit the attack, attacker, environment, and so on.



Makes sense. Basically, a (two-man) kata-like approach, arranged differently.



> As for the uke always standing still: Big problem in kenpo training overall. Lets the defender off the hook for proper execution and authority.



OK, there's my point. I'm looking to see someone step to the outside to avoid the follow-up, and throw a technique that wouldn't be caught by them just having their hands up. This problem isn't unique to Kenpo.

I am not doubting Mr. Trejo's abilities. But, these stand-still demos seem much more prevalent in Kenpo, despite it's claims to teach practrical self-defense.


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## Hand Sword (Oct 4, 2006)

Agreed, It's also a problem if you have to use it for real. Not training the opponent's correct responses to your move is very detrimental.


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## Warrior-Scholar (Oct 4, 2006)

*Kembudo-Kai Kempoka...the whole box the boxer, wrestle the wrestler comment on my part was a secret attempt to bait them into my world after they have gained confidence...devious haha!*
I am most definitely aware of the quote.

Anyway, I am sorry you feel like you are not getting through to some people.  I appreciate your persistence and clarity in thought!  

It doesn't matter anyway because Kenpo is worthless against a BJJ practitioner...we should just stop training.  Oh wait, that's one of those other arguments that won't go away either!!! sorry

The lack of resistance training may also reflect the lust for rank to some degree.  It takes a lot of training time to work the principles of your techniques in unpredictable settings.  You can't do it in two one hour sessions per week!  Nothing wrong with taking 10 solid years of training to attain a Shodan.  I would rather have an Orange belt confident in his use of 34 techs due to rigorous resistance and non-resistance training by my side than some guy gunning for Green after 2 years!


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## Hand Sword (Oct 4, 2006)




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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 5, 2006)

Warrior-Scholar said:


> *Kembudo-Kai Kempoka...the whole box the boxer, wrestle the wrestler comment on my part was a secret attempt to bait them into my world after they have gained confidence...devious haha!*
> I am most definitely aware of the quote.
> 
> Anyway, I am sorry you feel like you are not getting through to some people. I appreciate your persistence and clarity in thought!
> ...


 
Notsomuch directed at you. I frequent a couple forums, and it's pandemic in kenpo...slowly building to a boil under my skin. And I think you're spot on about the rank thing. I got a student coming up from Southern Cal this weekend to train and test. He's been a whie belt since we started together...in 1999. Overkill, perhaps. But kenpo done right should be about controlling the opponent from first contact, until control release. Not just whippity-slappity stuff.

There are times when a disengage is useful...to prime a strike or maneuver AFTER the bad-guy's been stunned silly or rendered a positional, tactical or injured non-threat. But for the most part, if the technique calls for the bad guy to be bent over for some follow-up move, it is up to the kenpoist to slow down, improve contact, timing, and penetration, and bend him over. Not just whip stuff out into the air where he WOULD be if he WERE bent over.

And I am sorry for the tude I got, guys. Got some whiplash breakthrough pain conquering the meds. Makes me pissy to sting like this.

Thank you for the dialogue, and if any of you get the chance to get funky with Frank, you should. He's one of the first who'll ride you about zone cancellation, and body conditioning.

Best Regards,

Dave


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 5, 2006)

arnisador said:


> Unique?!? That's beyond hyperbole...it's outright wrong. Many people understand this idea, best expressed as "Don't invade Russia in the winter." It's not only a standard strategy, it was so long before his birth. Look at the story of the jo being used against Miyamoto Musashi ("Don't fence a fencer.") That having been said, yes, all to many people forget the lesson.


 
When I say unique, I absolutely am referring to creative application of the idea. Which is all too rare in the arts, and not nearly that outright wrong. Challenge matches were as likely to get a pie to the face followed by a stomp on the toe, as they were anything else. Many understand the idea...how often do you see it? Particularly in the defensive arts, where training engrains patterns that practitioners are wont to deviate from, even if it ain't the best idea at the time?

Teaching non-sequiter defense through sequiter drills is a toughy. And I'm always open to new ideas.

Regards,

Dave


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 5, 2006)

Robert Lee said:


> Prearranged drills shows possibles Allways a person should open the door by telling the students you can take any of these moves at different times and put something together. Ther is no set delivery method. Yes as for demo. You want to show. Then in resistive motion you still show but The Uke resists you go beyond there action and still get delivery. Every art has prearranged and open drills That is a teaching tool. Its not the video here As I said it shows a teaching format. The Idea is when you start you just keep going until your opponet can not be considered a threat. That is more or lees what kenpo is trying to teach you or anybody. Your sudden responce training is to deliver a fast flurry not a 1 2 delivery. Now as you grow you have to train some resistance to go beyond preformed motion. Then you have a delivery that can be effective in a street action mode. Look at the video. as to what was done. Learn from what was showed. Any move could have been the first strike move in a different order. Distance would have changed probably after the first or second hit. Now which move would have came into play as you had to move in closer while still striking. All I am saying Its good for train at one level Then go beyond it. How at different speed levels of resistive motion. reaction training Next step is what spars light and medium contact.


 
Exactly.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 5, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> "Never box with a boxer; wrestle with a wrestler; or sprint against a sprinter. This is the surest path to defeat or destruction. Change the subject; THAT is the name of the game. If he's a boxer, take him down. If he's a wrestler, break his hands and knees so he can't grab or throw you. If he's a sprinter, go on a long run with him. Never, ever fight a shark in his own water."
> - Edmund K. Parker, Founder and Senior GrandMaster of American Kenpo...............


 
The demo may be taken out of context.  On the rest of the tape Mr. Trejo can be seen showing the Uke's what's coming as though they aren't kenpoists or don't know the technique sequence.  Therefore they may not have known the sequence and he may have been "going light" for safety reasons.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 5, 2006)

arnisador said:


> Unique?!? That's beyond hyperbole...it's outright wrong. Many people understand this idea, best expressed as "Don't invade Russia in the winter." It's not only a standard strategy, it was so long before his birth. Look at the story of the jo being used against Miyamoto Musashi ("Don't fence a fencer.") That having been said, yes, all to many people forget the lesson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
*Ok, my apologies. I thought you meant this "problem" was unique to Kenpo.*  Yep, that's Kenpo pretty much. *I see this all the time in training but not often presented in clips, maybe I should post some clips like this? hmmmm I have work to do *


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## MJS (Oct 5, 2006)

I think its important to keep in mind, that this clip was simply a demo of techniques.  I can look around on youtube and find similar clips in which the uke is standing still.  Whats important to keep in mind, and this goes for every art, not just Kenpo, is that its important to be able to flow from one move to the next, in the event something goes wrong.  Isn't that what grafting is all about?  If, during the course of the technique, the uke moves, counters, etc., then thats when we adapt to whats being presented to us, and do something else.

Mike


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Not always. There are several techniques that can be done irregardless of the responses. Five Swords comes to mind. Also Delayed Sword, Alternating Maces, Calming the Storm, etc. Also alot of the extended techniques are extended because SOMETHING WENT WRONG at VARIOUS points. This is misinformation of EPAK. The equation Formula (in oarticular the adjust and regulate portions) allows alot of techniques to go largely unaltered in the face of variables.
> 
> Dance of Death is just a lesson in different pinning moves. All the techniques are just lessons. The only assumption is that the Kenpo techniques are meant to be used as written in combat.
> 
> *Agreed.*


 
It's true, not all the techs do what I have described, and Dance of Death was just a very clean and obvious example.

Look at another hypothetical example.  If a tech involves a shot to the solar plexus to double him over, followed by a handsword to the back of the neck, or an elbow down into the spine, these followup shots are dependent on that shot to the solar plexus actually working.  If he doesn't bend over, then the followups to the back of the neck or spine don't present themselved.  Again, time to get creative.  While Dance of Death was a very obvious example, this problem does exist in other techs as well, even if not so obvious.

I understand the techs are really meant to teach response ideas and creativity.  I suspect you and I are really more on the same page than off.  I just wanted to point this out because I think perhaps some people think that they would actually pull off a tech in the street the same way it is taught, and I think that can be a hazardous idea.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> I just wanted to point this out because I think perhaps some people think that they would actually pull off a tech in the street the same way it is taught, and I think that can be a hazardous idea.


 
We're actually on nearly exactly the same page, just a little Devil's advocate work going on here for discussion.

The above is too true indeed.


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## Robert Lee (Oct 5, 2006)

Its not the tape or who is on the tape Its not kenpo or any art. Its real life when you need and it works. as far as the tape I see it a a training tape But one has to open there eyes and mind after. And when you look at a real fight tape you see many things that could have been done or looked sloppy. Whats real is then and there and the person doing it. The old saying if it worked it was right. You  or I its us thats counts in real life. Training teaches doing gets it done. But it is how you train that makes doning work. And a street fight does not give much time to find out how to fight the boxer or the grappler You find out as the fight goes on. In the do jo or kwoon Or Gym thats wher you train to make it work. On the streets thats where you find out if it did. Im saying the tape is good depending on how you want to look at it. Would it work real life like that No would it help to train for that type of explosion YES Take the video and see its meaning. To me its hit as often as you can and if the opening is there hit If the person is still standing hit You stop when the threat is over. The video shows continued motion Just Not real on the clip bUt its there to learn from.


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## arnisador (Oct 5, 2006)

MJS said:


> I think its important to keep in mind, that this clip was simply a demo of techniques.  I can look around on youtube and find similar clips in which the uke is standing still.



Well...the original poster labeled this thread "* 	Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques*" (_emphasis _added). I don't see the deadliness being demonstrated. If this isn't a good demo., perhaps the original poster starting a thread for it was inadvisable. I inferred that is was posted because it was as titled, and not because it was a random YouTube clip.




> Whats important to keep in mind, and this goes for every art, not just Kenpo, is that its important to be able to flow from one move to the next, in the event something goes wrong.  Isn't that what grafting is all about?



It's surely what Modern Arnis is about! Makes sense to me.


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## MJS (Oct 5, 2006)

arnisador said:


> Well...the original poster labeled this thread "*     Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques*" (_emphasis _added). I don't see the deadliness being demonstrated. If this isn't a good demo., perhaps the original poster starting a thread for it was inadvisable. I inferred that is was posted because it was as titled, and not because it was a random YouTube clip.


 
Yes sir, perhaps the title of the thread, compared to the title thats actually on the clip was a bit misleading.  As Mr. Trejo stated, these clips were just a sample of AK and some common attacks.






> It's surely what Modern Arnis is about! Makes sense to me.


 
Right on!


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 6, 2006)

arnisador said:


> Well...the original poster labeled this thread "*     Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques*" (_emphasis _added). I don't see the deadliness being demonstrated. If this isn't a good demo., perhaps the original poster starting a thread for it was inadvisable. I inferred that is was posted because it was as titled, and not because it was a random YouTube clip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
For the record Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques was just the labelling on the tape.

My apologies for the tape not being as "deadly" as you would have liked. I'll be sure to include blood and dismemberments in future clips, LOL.

P.S. it's a joke for those who'll think I'm serious.

P.P.S. Any idea where some "good" Modern Arnis clips are. Good meaning clips that you would recommend to show to others.


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> P.P.S. Any idea where some "good" Modern Arnis clips are. Good meaning clips that you would recommend to show to others.



A bunch have been posted here and on FMATalk.com recently! For example, see:
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=999
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=1001
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=1010
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=949

There are others in the Modern Arnis fora here and there.


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 6, 2006)

arnisador said:


> I love this quote! I intend to steal it. It expresses my feelings precisely.
> 
> I must say, the clip is classic Kenpo to my mind...uke not only stands stock-still after a single punch, he even drops his guard _before _the first blow lands. It doesn't make for a compelling demonstration, to my mind.


 

It looks like every martial arts demo that I have ever watched, including the Modern Arnis clips that you had posted.


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## arnisador (Oct 9, 2006)

I didn't start a thread claiming they were deadly.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 9, 2006)

arnisador said:


> I didn't start a thread claiming they were deadly.


 
No you didn't.  but you did complain about a certain aspect of the tape (Uke's offering no resistance) so I asked about an example of yours that was "good" in your opinion.  You posted clips that had the same fallacy (passive uke's) you were condemning.  Besides, like I posted the "ten deadly..." was the packaging on the tape, it wasn't claiming anything.

it's like you saying "water is terrible drink" and I say "well give me a good drink" and you go "here's a bottle of water"


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## arnisador (Oct 9, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> it's like you saying "water is terrible drink" and I say "well give me a good drink" and you go "here's a bottle of water"



Wow. You know, it really couldn't be further from that at all.


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## Danjo (Oct 10, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> For the record Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques was just the labelling on the tape.
> 
> My apologies for the tape not being as "deadly" as you would have liked. I'll be sure to include blood and dismemberments in future clips, LOL.
> 
> ...


 
Ummm...I watched it a few times and counted only 9 deadly Kenpo techniques. Maybe I mis-counted?

I love watching anything with Mr. Trejo in it though. One needs to ask oneself if someone that's as good a fighter as he is and was would train this way if it were useless? Given what Mr. Trejo accomplished, it seems like one should rather be sayiing, "Hmmm... I wonder what I can learn from this type of training?" Very few that are criticizing these clips have the reputation that Mr. Trejo does in terms of fighting, so it makes me chuckle when I hear him being criticized for this stuff.

Big thanks to James for his on-going efforts to bring this Kenpo history to the rest of us!


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## Monadnock (Oct 10, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> No you didn't. but you did complain about a certain aspect of the tape (Uke's offering no resistance) so I asked about an example of yours that was "good" in your opinion. You posted clips that had the same fallacy (passive uke's) you were condemning. Besides, like I posted the "ten deadly..." was the packaging on the tape, it wasn't claiming anything.
> 
> it's like you saying "water is terrible drink" and I say "well give me a good drink" and you go "here's a bottle of water"


 
The techniques probably are deadly, if run 100%.  The same for the Arnis vids, if only they were shown more graphically instead of the other guy just standing there we could get that point too.


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## HKphooey (Oct 10, 2006)

One can easily sit back an critique any clip.  I bet people outside of Kenpo would find many faults in many of the Parker clips we have seen.  Most are made to help train others, not make then hit rewind 8,000 times and "slow mo" the clips so they can pick up the material.  This is why I give anyone who posts a clip of themselves on MT (or the web in general) a lot of credit.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2006)

HKphooey said:


> This is why I give anyone who posts a clip of themselves on MT (or the web in general) a lot of credit.


 

Yah, it's true, man, a lot of bravery to do that, talk about scrutiny!


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## rdouglas_1965 (Oct 17, 2006)

Dave,

Wanted to say your response was near-perfect.  After reading through ridiculous posts on Kenpo and martial-arts in general since USENET (20 years ago or so), I have mostly stopped reading, and almost completely stopped writing on computer forums.

It's nice to see someone articulate so well about Kenpo.  And understand that the technqiues are not the end-all of the style.  That they are a tool to achieving spontaneity in combat, and it's unlikely you'll ever go through a whole technique as is.

As an example of this just *bump up* your work-out sessions.  Give active resistance, throw good hard attacks, etc.   It makes you realize that you need to be able to think on your feet.  The amazing thing is that after years of training hard your body takes over the thinking for you.  It's an incredible feeling when this first happens.

Robert Douglas


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 17, 2006)

rdouglas_1965 said:


> Dave,
> 
> Wanted to say your response was near-perfect. After reading through ridiculous posts on Kenpo and martial-arts in general since USENET (20 years ago or so), I have mostly stopped reading, and almost completely stopped writing on computer forums.
> 
> ...


 
Wow, you said USENET....talk about showing your age  Good post.


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