# something stupid... very stupid



## Manny (Sep 22, 2009)

Last night at kenpo class my sensei told me a bad thing that happened to his instructor, a 19 years old brown belt.

Sensei told me some days ago his instructor went to a local bar with some friends and have some drinks.... well a little more than a some drinks. When living the place some scumbag trowed an ice cube to a friend of the instructor so he went to the scumbag in a very stupid way to fight him.

The scumbag smashed his glass in the face on the kenpoist and cutt him very bad in the face and then the friends of the SOB kicked the instructors in the floor visiously.

The instructor gott 45 stiches on his face and he is recovering from his injuries at home.

I was amazed cause I Know the instructor and yes he's a nice kid maybe a little loquiacius but he's not a bad person. 

This is a real story we must learn about it, MA and alcohol does not mix.

Manny


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## CoryKS (Sep 22, 2009)

Manny said:


> This is a real story we must learn about it, MA and alcohol does not mix.


 
I'll go a step further and say that drinking to inebriation is never a good idea.  The thing about MA is, if you're concerned enough about your safety to invest such an amount of time, money, and energy to learning how to defend yourself, why would you deliberately put yourself in a situation where you have limited control of your faculties?


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## Manny (Sep 22, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I'll go a step further and say that drinking to inebriation is never a good idea. The thing about MA is, if you're concerned enough about your safety to invest such an amount of time, money, and energy to learning how to defend yourself, why would you deliberately put yourself in a situation where you have limited control of your faculties?


 
Wise words sir.

Manny


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## Danjo (Sep 22, 2009)

Mickey Spillane in one of his Mike Hammer novels called "The Girl Hunters" once said, "Judo and Karate are fine as long as everything is going your way, but a good right-cross can wipe out all of that if it gets there first."

The problem that many martial artists have is not understanding that techniques are expressions of concepts, they are not the concepts themselves. Thundering Hammers (or whatever) isn't going to help you when someone attacks you with a beer mug etc. Brown belts don't often get that because they're still too busy learning the techniques to get to black belt. they're used to playing by the dojo rules and haven't learned to adjust to reality when someone isn't following those rules.

This fellow was damn lucky that it wasn't someone that preferred just stabbing him with a knife.


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## elder999 (Sep 22, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I'll go a step further and say that drinking to inebriation is never a good idea.



Sure it is. That's part of what it's for. Just do like I do:

_Do it at *home*/_


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## CoryKS (Sep 22, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Sure it is. That's part of what it's for. Just do like I do:
> 
> _Do it at *home*/_


 
You could fall down the stairs and your judo won't help you then, fella.  You know why?  Because you're besotted!  My God man, just look at yourself.


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## elder999 (Sep 22, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> You could fall down the stairs and your judo won't help you then, fella. You know why? Because you're besotted! My God man, just look at yourself.


 

No stairs in my home....:lol: (Gotta watch that barbecue grill, though-never mind the guns...)

Actually, I've stumbled with three or four drinks in me (not because I was drunk-because I'm a congenital klutz! :lol: ), and the _ukemi_ made it painless, and rather comical from the floor...:lol:


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## CoryKS (Sep 22, 2009)

elder999 said:


> No stairs in my home....:lol: (Gotta watch that barbecue grill, though-never mind the guns...)
> 
> Actually, I've stumbled with three or four drinks in me (*not because I was drunk-because I'm a congenital klutz!* :lol: ), and the _ukemi_ made it painless, and rather comical from the floor...:lol:


 
heh, you and me both.  I tell my training partner that if my techniques don't work I'll probably still kill my attacker through sheer clumsiness.


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## mwd0818 (Sep 23, 2009)

Running joke in my old school among the instructors:

Stub a toe, walk into a chair, slip on ice outside, etc.

"Good thing I'm a Black Belt . . . that could have killed a lesser man . . . "


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## Danjo (Sep 23, 2009)

Yep. You have no idea how many bullets have bounced off of my chest. Brown belts should never attempt it though.


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## Xinglu (Sep 23, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Yep. You have no idea how many bullets have bounced off of my chest. Brown belts should never attempt it though.



LOL I love it.  

I call it the Marine syndrome.  They come out of training thinking they are ten feet tall and bulletproof.  This is because the training is good and they believe in it, there self esteem is good because they have been built up.  Then they get in a bar fight and realize their limitations.  While this is not true for all it is common.  And it is common for martial artists too.


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## suicide (Sep 24, 2009)

Manny said:


> Last night at kenpo class my sensei told me a bad thing that happened to his instructor, a 19 years old brown belt.
> 
> Sensei told me some days ago his instructor went to a local bar with some friends and have some drinks.... well a little more than a some drinks. When living the place some scumbag trowed an ice cube to a friend of the instructor so he went to the scumbag in a very stupid way to fight him.
> 
> ...


 

he must look old or something or just carry a fake i.d. ( Mclovin 25 year old organ doner from hawaii ) hes 19 in a bar drinking and not thinking : THIS IS A MANS WORLD / would the guy that smashed a glass on his head happen to be a - HELLS ANGEL biker ? 

is your instructors brown belt gonna go back to that bar when he heals up ? he should of did sword of destruction , them yellow belt techs are the ones that count sometimes %-}


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 24, 2009)

suicide said:


> he must look old or something or just carry a fake i.d. ( Mclovin 25 year old organ doner from hawaii ) hes 19 in a bar drinking and not thinking : THIS IS A MANS WORLD / would the guy that smashed a glass on his head happen to be a - HELLS ANGEL biker ?
> 
> is your instructors brown belt gonna go back to that bar when he heals up ? he should of did sword of destruction , them yellow belt techs are the ones that count sometimes %-}


 
In case you never noticed, Manny is in Mexico. Contrary to the provincial views of many, the laws of the US do not apply to the rest of the world.

It's sad that this young man got so badly injured. It likely could have been avoided had clearer heads prevailed. Unfortunately, clear heads and and large amounts of alcohol rarely seem to coexist.


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## Manny (Sep 24, 2009)

suicide said:


> he must look old or something or just carry a fake i.d. ( Mclovin 25 year old organ doner from hawaii ) hes 19 in a bar drinking and not thinking : THIS IS A MANS WORLD / would the guy that smashed a glass on his head happen to be a - HELLS ANGEL biker ?
> 
> is your instructors brown belt gonna go back to that bar when he heals up ? he should of did sword of destruction , them yellow belt techs are the ones that count sometimes %-}


 
In my country 18 years is a legal to drink, below 18 you are a minor, but with 18 years and a ID to confirm it you can enter to a bar nad have drinks.

The guy is a nice guy I have to admit it but maybe the alcohol makes him feel like Van Dame... who knows?

Don't know if the guy is going back to the bar when heal of the injuries but I think he has a lot of to think of about kenpo and making his black belt examination.

And yes, the simpler the tech is the faster to aply in the real world, intrincate or too elaborate techs some times sucks in the real world.

Manny


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## KenpoDave (Sep 24, 2009)

So, your Sensei's teacher is a 19 year old brown belt?


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## Xinglu (Sep 24, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> So, your Sensei's teacher is a 19 year old brown belt?



Manny, if I misunderstood what you meant please correct me, I don't want to speak for you.

But I do believe the implication was that the 19 y/o is a teacher/assistant teacher under his Sensei.

Keep in mind that Manny is ESL and English is a ridiculously hard language to grasp. I think he does a good job and sometimes I forget it's not his first language!


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## Danjo (Sep 24, 2009)

Yeah it took me a while to figure out the who was whom's teacher thing too.


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## mwd0818 (Sep 24, 2009)

I speak (roughly) Spanish and didn't have a problem picking up what Manny meant, but looking back, I can see the confusion.

Spanish is a much simpler language, except for the subjunctive that English all but eliminated in the last 300 years. . .


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## KenpoDave (Sep 24, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Manny, if I misunderstood what you meant please correct me, I don't want to speak for you.
> 
> But I do believe the implication was that the 19 y/o is a teacher/assistant teacher under his Sensei.
> 
> Keep in mind that Manny is ESL and English is a ridiculously hard language to grasp. I think he does a good job and sometimes I forget it's not his first language!


 
Yeah, I'm just trying to make sure I am reading everything right.


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## dianhsuhe (Sep 24, 2009)

I thought that as well...LOL

I was going to ask about the Brown Belt being a Sensei's instructor but did not want to go there.

Jamey


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## shaolinmonkmark (Sep 24, 2009)

i honestly thought it was a "Type-o" on his end, but none the less, understood what he was typing.


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## MA-Caver (Sep 24, 2009)

Manny said:


> Last night at kenpo class my sensei told me a bad thing that happened to his instructor, a 19 years old brown belt.
> 
> Sensei told me some days ago his instructor went to a local bar with some friends and have some drinks.... well a little more than a some drinks. When living the place some scumbag trowed an ice cube to a friend of the instructor so he went to the scumbag in a very stupid way to fight him.
> 
> ...



I'm not a kenpoist and I already knew the amazing super power inducing effects of alcohol. 
Definitely stupid very stupid. Also bad form for the instructor to actually start a fight. A very good example he sets yes? 



CoryKS said:


> I'll go a step further and say that drinking to inebriation is never a good idea. The thing about MA is, if you're concerned enough about your safety to invest such an amount of time, money, and energy to learning how to defend yourself, why would you deliberately put yourself in a situation where you have limited control of your faculties?



What he said. 



Danjo said:


> Mickey Spillane in one of his Mike Hammer novels called "The Girl Hunters" once said, "Judo and Karate are fine as long as everything is going your way, but a good right-cross can wipe out all of that if it gets there first."


 Amen to that. Spillane was one of those rare writers that had actually experienced some of the environments & people he wrote about


Danjo said:


> The problem that many martial artists have is not understanding that techniques are expressions of concepts, they are not the concepts themselves. Thundering Hammers (or whatever) isn't going to help you when someone attacks you with a beer mug etc. Brown belts don't often get that because they're still too busy learning the techniques to get to black belt. they're used to playing by the dojo rules and haven't learned to adjust to reality when someone isn't following those rules.


Agreed, when I was a uke for a budding Kenpoist I noticed those things too. I kept mentally applying real-world techs (if you will) as counter-moves to what the kenpoist was applying to me. I could SEE how they would be devestating without question... provided the kenpoist does it very hard and very fast before any of those counters can come into play... otherwise they're screwed if they don't have counters for the counters. Adaptation is very important and yes I was told that Kenpo teaches that... one has to be a quick minded individual or honed in their art to make those quick adjustments. 



Danjo said:


> This fellow was damn lucky that it wasn't someone that preferred just stabbing him with a knife.


 A jagged beer mug makes just as an effective weapon, even more deadly if the handle stays intact. 



elder999 said:


> Sure it is. That's part of what it's for. Just do like I do:
> 
> _Do it at *home*/_


And a big *AMEN* to the gentleman that said that!! 



Danjo said:


> Yep. You have no idea how many bullets have bounced off of my chest.


 Were they dum-dums? :lol:


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 24, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> .
> 
> A jagged beer mug makes just as an effective weapon, even more deadly if the handle stays intact.


 

I'm going to disagree with this statement. I cannot count how many wound repairs I've done over the years and I will say categorically that stab wounds are *vastly* more dangerous than cuts. The broken beer mug/bottle will leave a much more impressive scar, and will occassionally get you a trip to the OR if we have to call plastics for the repair. But a stab wound to the torso or neck virtually gaurantees you'll be heading to the OR. I can only recall *once* sending someone to the OR for life threatening injuries from a mug or bottle. The guy got hit over the head with a magnum sized bottle (very thick glass...) and had a subdural hematoma.


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## MA-Caver (Sep 25, 2009)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm going to disagree with this statement. I cannot count how many wound repairs I've done over the years and I will say categorically that stab wounds are *vastly* more dangerous than cuts. The broken beer mug/bottle will leave a much more impressive scar, and will occasionally get you a trip to the OR if we have to call plastics for the repair. But a stab wound to the torso or neck virtually guarantees you'll be heading to the OR. I can only recall *once* sending someone to the OR for life threatening injuries from a mug or bottle. The guy got hit over the head with a magnum sized bottle (very thick glass...) and had a subdural hematoma.


I'm not upset that you are disagreeing but my question is have you seen how some beer mugs have looked after being smashed? especially near around the handle themselves. 
Incidentally... I never said anything about cutting, though at the right place and deep enough.... A jagged edge of a broken glass bottle or beer mug (again) makes an effective stabbing weapon and more so when the handle is intact (more force applied to drive the glass deeper with the added ability to twist and BREAK a piece off inside if you're lucky. 
Bust a few of those good heavy mugs (with hand protection) on a brick wall and see what results _can_ occur.  
:asian:


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## Manny (Sep 25, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> So, your Sensei's teacher is a 19 year old brown belt?


 
Nope, my sensei is a 3 Dan Black Blet, he has one black belt that trains under him and when the sensei is not in dojo, this brown belt takes charge of the class.

My classmates are one or two purple belts, two green belts and yeloow belts and the beginers like myself.

Manny


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## Manny (Sep 25, 2009)

Manny said:


> Nope, my sensei is a 3 Dan Black Blet, he has one black belt that trains under him and when the sensei is not in dojo, this brown belt takes charge of the class.
> 
> My classmates are one or two purple belts, two green belts and yeloow belts and the beginers like myself.
> 
> Manny


 

Sorry again my sensei is a 3dan black belt, he has one brown belt student  and the times the sensei is not in the dojo this brown belt takes charge of the class.

Manny


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 25, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> I'm not upset that you are disagreeing but my question is have you seen how some beer mugs have looked after being smashed? especially near around the handle themselves.
> Incidentally... I never said anything about cutting, though at the right place and deep enough.... A jagged edge of a broken glass bottle or beer mug (again) makes an effective stabbing weapon and more so when the handle is intact (more force applied to drive the glass deeper with the added ability to twist and BREAK a piece off inside if you're lucky.
> Bust a few of those good heavy mugs (with hand protection) on a brick wall and see what results _can_ occur.
> :asian:


 
In 30 years in the ER, I'm pretty sure I've seen the full range of wounds. And in that time, I have never seen anybody with life threatening wounds (other than the single subdural, in which case the bottle did not even break) from a broken bottle or mug. Terrible scars, yes. Life threatening, no. Not even one.
A stab wound from a knife, even a small one, is more dangerous than any cut I have ever seen from a broken bottle/mug.


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## elder999 (Sep 25, 2009)

Dirty Dog said:


> In 30 years in the ER, I'm pretty sure I've seen the full range of wounds. And in that time, I have never seen anybody with life threatening wounds (other than the single subdural, in which case the bottle did not even break) from a broken bottle or mug. Terrible scars, yes. Life threatening, no. Not even one.
> A stab wound from a knife, even a small one, is more dangerous than any cut I have ever seen from a broken bottle/mug.


 
Just because you haven't seen it, _doesn't mean it hasn't happened._:

Memphis police investigate beer bottle stabbing death

Teacher stabbed himself to death while high on magic mushrooms (WTF???!)

]Man is jailed for bottle stabbing 

Fatal stabbing: Local man gets 10 years 

Man due in court over tourist's death

All these bottle stabbings are just part of the over 1 million google hits.......


Jamaican stripper arrested for murdering fellow dancer with broken bottle.

 Teen stabs father to death with bottle

B.P. man allegedly used beer bottle in stabbing


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 27, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Just because you haven't seen it, _doesn't mean it hasn't happened._:


 
I didn't mean to imply that it never happens. I meant exactly what I said, which is that stab wounds are far more dangerous than cuts. And that broken bottles/mugs are far more likely to be use to cut than to stab. I would much rather face someone wielding a broken bottle than a knife. And if I must face someone wielding a knife, I hope they try to cut me, rather than stab me.

As for your google results... did you know that if you google "elvis" & "aliens" you will find some 2.5 million hits connecting Elvis to space aliens?


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## Danjo (Sep 28, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> A jagged beer mug makes just as an effective weapon, even more deadly if the handle stays intact.


 
Could be, depending on how it was used. My point was really that if someone was into using knives, then they would likely be aiming to kill. Whereas, if they are hitting you in th eface with a beer mug, then they are likely not trying to kill you, but rather reacting in anger and fighting dirty.


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## TenTigers (Sep 28, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> Running joke in my old school among the instructors:
> 
> Stub a toe, walk into a chair, slip on ice outside, etc.
> 
> ...


 
I like that, and will be quoting you from now on! (good writers borrow, great writers steal!)
 I do something similar. When I trip or do something completely klutzy, I say,"Years of Martial Arts training has given me a Cat-like grace!"


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## TenTigers (Sep 28, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> You could fall down the stairs and your judo won't help you then, fella. You know why? Because you're besotted! My God man, just look at yourself.


my teacher's training brother-"Uncle David" is 82 yrs old. Last year, he fell down an entire flight of stairs-including a winding part at the end-a second floor walk-up in Bed-Sty, NY. The guy got up and except for a lump on his head and some assorted bruises, was ok, and went to his evening Rhumba class that night!
Last week, he fell off a scaffold while sheetrocking his ceiling, and still came into Sunday's Shuai Jiao class!
Whenever I am teaching breakalls, I tell my students that this is the most important lesson they will ever learn.
"You may never get into a fight, but you will always fall."
-and if you live in NY, or anywhere there's snow,slush, and ice, you will fall often.


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## TenTigers (Sep 28, 2009)

Dirty Dog said:


> As for your google results... did you know that if you google "elvis" & "aliens" you will find some 2.5 million hits connecting Elvis to space aliens?


well, you've seen Elvis' Kenpo skillz. Where do you _think_ he got his black belt?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 28, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Could be, depending on how it was used. My point was really that if someone was into using knives, then they would likely be aiming to kill. Whereas, if they are hitting you in th eface with a beer mug, then they are likely not trying to kill you, but rather reacting in anger and fighting dirty.


 
Again, my experience causes me to differ. Most of the knife wounds we see are slashes, for the simple reason (I suspect) that most of the people using the knives do not really know how to fight with a knife.

I treated a guy saturday night who had no less than 25 knife wounds. Mostly to his arm, but several on the torso. Chest CT showed that not a single one penetrated past the subcutaneous tissues. At that point, I spent about 45 minutes stapling things closed and we sent him home.

Had even one of those chest wounds been a stab, he'd not have been discharged. And may well have died before he got to the ER. 

It's always safest to assume that your attacker is armed, trained, and willing to kill you. In most cases, I would prefer to face an armed but untrained attacker.


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