# Differences? Tae-kwon-do, Tang Soo Do?



## Joab

What are the differences? I read in wikepedia (Not an authoratitive source of course) that Tang Soo Do became a part of Tae-Kwon Do some years ago. Is this true? I'm not looking for an exhaustive, movement by movement analysis of how both systems are different, if they are, just in general, what are the differences if any? Thanks.


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## stoneheart

I'll be somewhat controversial and say there's not much difference if any.  TSD people like to say that they are more focused on self-defense than TKD, but if you look at the syllabus on offer from various TSD organizations, they don't offer anything not seen in the typical TKD dojang.  TSD one-steps are also plagued by the same unrealistic range assumptions where a high kick is often performed by the defender after an opening blocking defense.  

I have also heard that TSD emphasizes hip twist and counter-rotation, but those should be key concepts in any hard style of martial art:  karate has it, as does muay thai, and so should any TKD instructor worth his salt.

From my perspective, if you don't do Olympic sparring, TKD and TSD are just different faces to the same coin.


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## terryl965

TSD people will tell you they are more focus on Self Defense, maybe maybe not. One thing that I have noticed over the last tenyears alot of TSD school are going back to low kicks instead of the high one when doing SD principle. TKD while there are plaenty of sport school you can still find the traditional school if you really look even inside of a sport type school.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Joab said:


> What are the differences? I read in wikepedia (Not an authoratitive source of course) that Tang Soo Do became a part of Tae-Kwon Do some years ago. Is this true? I'm not looking for an exhaustive, movement by movement analysis of how both systems are different, if they are, just in general, what are the differences if any? Thanks.


Having practiced both, I can tell you this:

TSD forms are the Pinan/Heian forms (called Pyung-ahn in some TSD schools).  Tang Soo Do is way of the Tang hand and is literally Korean Karate.

TKD uses either Chang Hon, Palgwe, Songham, or Taegeuk forms, depending upon your organization and school (some KKW schools do both Palgwe and Taegeuk).  Taekwondo goes to some length to be not-karate (even though it really is just another style of karate). 

So far as I know, TSD sparring is the same as Shotokan sparring, which is (to my knowledge) very similar, if not the same, as ITF sparring.  WTF sparring is radically different and I am unfamiliar with the specific rules of the ATA.

In all, Tang Soo Do really need only say two words to differentiate itself from everyone else: Chuck Norris.

Daniel


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## Omar B

I'm waiting for 

 maunakumu to answer this one.

I would love to find out because TSD has always interested me greatly.  Every school I've visited the training seemed a bit soft and coming from the Seido/Kyokushin lineage it's not appealing to me not having tough training, tough sparring and such.  Yes, I judge every marital art based on those two, I wanna see a strict, tough class, an intense focus on form, and lots of fighting.


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## Earl Weiss

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So far as I know, TSD sparring is the same as Shotokan sparring, which is (to my knowledge) very similar, if not the same, as ITF sparring.
> Daniel


 
Not even close. One huge difference is that Shotokan uses few Kicks and it Shotoka competition it is almost as hard to score with a kick as it is to score with a hand technique in Olympic Style Sparring.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Thanks!  It has been about three decades since I did TSD, so I was not sure about the sparring.

Daniel


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## DMcHenry

I've done both.  There is *very* little difference between the two from my first TKD dojang to TSD.  In my first TKD school, we did both the pyungan and palgwe form sets, whereas in TSD we only did the pyungan, that was about the only difference.  

TSD has evolved some, just like TKD.  There are some styalistic differences that are noticable now.  TKD has for the most part dropped the pyungan forms (not all) and with various groups will do the palgwe, changhon, taeguk or songham sets among others.  Some of the TSD orgs (now Soobakdo) will do the Chilsong & Yukro sets phasing out the pyungans too, others do them all and many have added weapons.

Kukki TKD will do the WTF style sparring (Olympic) with mostly kicking only, where ITF TKD is more balances between hands and feet.  I've seen some TSD schools/orgs who will do some controlled light to very heavy contact sparring with no pads as well as with full gear.  It all varies from school to school, instructor to instructor.

I know this is an over simplistic view, but it's all so varied now days with so many splinter groups out there.


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## ATC

Well I studied TSD back in the 80's with master "Pops" Krasnoo out of the LA area down in Encino CA and the main difference was that we used the side kick as our primary kick. We also use a lot more hands as the reverse and lunge punch was used often as well. Other than that though the kicks were about the same but not as much with the jumping or spinning kick, attacks were more direct and like I said lot of side kick setups.

I think that the WTF rules sparring does have a lot to do with the changing of the kicking style now but I do have ot admit it is faster and they seem to be able to hit just as hard if not harder now. Just wished they would use more hands. About the only hand technique is a quick switch reverse punch called a cover punch to the chest. I know, I know...no punches to the head with WTF rules but still.

Well at least we punch in class and SD.


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## clfsean

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In all, Tang Soo Do really need only say two words to differentiate itself from everyone else: Chuck Norris.
> 
> Daniel



Where do you think Chuck learned to scare off Black Holes?  TSD...


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## Omar B

I'm sorry, but TSD alone could not contain the awesome that is Chuck.  

But really, after watching the movie "One Down, Two to Go" with Jim Kelly I got seriously interested in TSD.  The opening 20 mins or so of the movie was set at an old school karate tournament and the TSD guys were kick butt.  And it was not staged for film but real tournament fighting.


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## hkfuie

before you can get an explanation of the differences between TKD and TSD, you will need some consensus on defining TKD.  

Good luck on that!  opcorn:


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## Jimi

TSD trained earlier in the states produced some very tough tourney fighters, what some would call old school TSD (Before the late 70's) just in the sense that the instructors in the 60's had no issue with popping you one if you dropped your guard or stepped out of line. That kind of instruction is rarely seen nowwa days because families & children do not want to be dealt with like that. Many who trained in TSD, MDK have made the crossover to TKD just for business sake cause people recognise the words Tae Kwon Do rather than Tang Soo DO. Moo Duk Kwan. They are very similar to the laymans eyes. The blanket view is TSD, MDK & TKD = Korean Emptyhand. Just my 2 cents


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## Omar B

Yeah, I would love to find a TSD school that teaches like they did in the 60's and 70's.  But as I've said, the TSD classes I've visited have all tended to seem a bit soft.


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## terryl965

Omar B said:


> Yeah, I would love to find a TSD school that teaches like they did in the 60's and 70's. But as I've said, the TSD classes I've visited have all tended to seem a bit soft.


 
There are still some around but they are small and only get people by referals, what I remember they do not advertise at all.


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## dbell

Tang Soo Do was around before Tae Kwon Do, Tae Kwon Do was a "reformation" of TSD due to political reasons and has since progressed into a sport instead of a martial system, for the most part.


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## Raistlin

I have been practicing both for many years. I find the 2 biggest differences are   TSD's exaggerated hip movement and TSD's rigid fighting style. TKD has some hip movement but not to the point of slowing you down or opening yourself up which I find many (not all) tsd practitioners are guilty of. I find tkd's fighting style to be much more free flowing. I believe this is due at least partially to the fact that many tkd schools have been separated into many kwans for several years and has allowed them to put their own twist into their fighting style without having to answer to anyone. TSD has largely been united under the Moo Duk Kwan banner until GM Hwang Kee passed away just a few years ago. There are now many different TSD orgs. however I would argue that they all adhere more closely to GM Hwang Kee's curriculum than tkd practitioners adhere to the original tkd curriculum. I hold master ranks in both arts. I find that I get the hardcore intense knock the crap out of each other type of training from tkd and a more traditional internal type of training with tsd. I'm sure it is partially due to the teaching styles of each of my instructors.


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## K31

Omar B said:


> I'm waiting for
> 
> maunakumu to answer this one.
> 
> I would love to find out because TSD has always interested me greatly.  Every school I've visited the training seemed a bit soft and coming from the Seido/Kyokushin lineage it's not appealing to me not having tough training, tough sparring and such.  Yes, I judge every marital art based on those two, I wanna see a strict, tough class, an intense focus on form, and lots of fighting.


 
I find this interesting because I was looking at the curriculum of a TSD school begun by an instructor I took some MA from in college. The description said that students had to purchase protective gear but that the sparring was "no contact".


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## Manny

As long as I can see TKD is a evolution on TSD.

Manny


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## CDKJudoka

TSD to me is Traditional, Non-Sport TKD. Our system looks a lot like TSD, as we focus on the side kick as our primary weapon and we still do the Pinans. 

Oh and they don't have blackbelts. They use Midnight Blue for their Dan ranks.


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## Daniel Sullivan

DarkPhoenix said:


> TSD to me is Traditional, Non-Sport TKD. Our system looks a lot like TSD, as we focus on the side kick as our primary weapon and we still do the Pinans.
> 
> Oh and they don't have blackbelts. They use Midnight Blue for their Dan ranks.


I thought that they also had a red/black (midnight blue?) belt for like fourth dan.

Daniel


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## DMcHenry

Some will use black, others dark blue.  Yes, normally 4th dan and up will have a red stripe through the middle of their belts.


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## MasterPistella

Been away for awhile, computer problems sorry. Just about one thing that was mentioned earlier about TSD being around before TKD. The founders actually trained together. Hwang Kee, Lee Won Kuk, & Ro Byung Jik, Kim Ki Whang were all friends. Ro incorporated his system (Song Moo Kwan) a year earlier than Hwang incorporated his system. The term TSD was used earlier, but by Lee, not Hwang.  So this creates a dilemma. The words TKD were not used until the 60's. But, I'm talking about words only. The techniques & ideas all came along together. But since SMK TKD came first I personally don't think we can say TSD was the forerunner. Oh yeah. I've studied TSD for 30 years & TKD for only about 4 off & on.


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## DMcHenry

MasterPistella said:


> ...since SMK TKD came first I personally don't think we can say TSD was the forerunner.


 
So the term TSD was first used in 1944, and TKD used in the 1960's - and you don't think TSD was the forerunner of TKD?


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## MCzapka

some of TSD practicioners do pointfighting sparring, light contact sparring, full contact, low kick or olimpic sparring as well.

TSD forms are japanese based forms, but some orgs do Chil Sung/Yuk Ro system - created by GM Hwang Kee, or Chineese based forms - like So Ho Yon, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF0_fHvPxU8&feature=related

here are demo for WC 2009, show variety TSD sport categories.






argentinian programme Deporte Marcial TV - about TSD


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