# Your Method Of Pivoting & Structure Of Your Bong Sau?



## ST1Doppelganger (May 21, 2014)

First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long. 

I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the  pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.

So my real question is a two part question containing. 

1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau? 

Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points? 

2) What is the structure of your Bong Sau?

Is it elbow at shoulder height or are you striving to go above shoulder height? 

Please answer those two questions  and explain why your WC is done this way because I feel they are two of the basic key moves that show the major differences in WC Lineages. 

Also any training tips that can be shared to improve on these two very basic concepts would probably help all of us since it's always good to look back on the basics and freshen up on them.


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## jg_wc (May 21, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.
> 
> I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the  pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.
> 
> ...



when it comes to chum kiu we've been taught to pivot on the heels. 
As for the bong sau there's no gospel fixed height it should be at because of course it depends on the height of your opponent and the type of strike coming in. In general, during the forms our bong sao is slightly above shoulder height with the wrist in centre line


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## wingchun100 (May 21, 2014)

We think of pivoting more in the center of the foot. For me, focusing on heels or toes makes me feel like I am losing my balance and my footing isn't solid enough. As for the bong sao, the elbow comes to shoulder height, with the wrist in center. Personally I would try to avoid using bong sao against a taller opponent because if you have to lift your arm to do it, then you will wind up tiring your shoulder out. For a bigger person I would use things like biu sao, lap sao, or pak sao.

To be honest I don't think of bong sao as a block that one would use much. If some guy charged at me with a right cross to the face, I would not start with that block. It is more of a transitional technique.


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## geezer (May 21, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.
> 
> I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the  pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.



Yep, the approach to turning, and the nature and application of bong sau are quite different depending on which branch of WC/WT/VT you train. To make any approach functional demands considerable dedication. Whichever group you train with, I would not recommend WC/WT/VT as a "supplemental" art. The system has narrow tolerances, and the way the techniques have to integrate to create a synergistic whole doesn't make it an especially good "bolt on" art. I've found that some other great arts, such as some FMA styles work better in this regard. Adobo anyone?


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 21, 2014)

geezer said:


> I would not recommend WC/WT/VT as a "supplemental" art. The system has narrow tolerances, and the way the techniques have to integrate to create a synergistic whole doesn't make it an especially good "bolt on" art. I've found that some other great arts, such as some FMA styles work better in this regard. Adobo anyone?



I'm a bit mixed with that statement. 

Bruce Lee sure as hell never mastered or stuck to WC and I find it to compliment my CLF foundation very well. 

I believe where people go wrong in mixing styles is when they don't stay true to the styles structure and concepts that they are learning at that time. 

When I'm training WC, Yang TCC, CLF or Bagua i stick to the concepts and structure of that individual style and learn it as its suppose to be learned then I mix my styles up when I spar or am doing just free style bag work or shadow boxing. 

Even when we free spar at the WC club I stick to the WC structure and keep my CLF and other arts out of their sparring unless it's when we decide to mix it up then thats when we break WC sparring structure.


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## mook jong man (May 21, 2014)

When we are teaching beginners , to give them a reference point , we say to pivot from the middle of the foot.
But a this stage they are only pivoting 45 degrees to either side.

The reality is that it is all about the center of gravity , as you pivot beyond 45 degrees to 90 degrees as in Chum Kiu , the center of gravity will naturally settle over the heel of the back leg.

In normal circumstances in Chi Sau it is very risky to pivot beyond 45 degrees as you can easily be turned and have your side and back exposed and be easily pushed out of your stance.

The height of the opponent will dictate how high the Bong Sau is , with a taller opponent in Chi Sau you need to have a larger circle in order to avoid getting hit.
The arm should not be getting tired , this will only happen if you are tense and lifting your Bong Sau up.

You should be relaxed and letting your opponents force roll your Bong Sau up , this requires you to have a very relaxed shoulder joint , all that needs to be done is to relax and maintain structure and let the opponent raise your arm.

If you do this correctly , as a side benefit you will also become heavier as the opponents force will be channelled down through your body and push you into the ground.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> 1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau?
> 
> Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points?
> 
> ...


1) I prefer to look at this from general MA point of view instead. IMO when you pivot on your

- toes, you are not committed. If your opponent sweeps your leg, it's easier for you to lift that leg up and escape out of that sweep.
- heel, you are committed. If your opponent sweeps your leg, it's harder for you to lift that leg up and escape out of that sweep.

It's very easy to test this on a frozen lake surface.

2) It depends on your opponent. It doesn't depend on yourself. MA is 2 persons art. Without the reference of "opponent", the height of your elbow will have no meaning. 

If your opponent is

- 7 feet tall, your Bong Shou elbow will be higher that your shoulder.
- 5 feet tall, your Bong Shou elbow will be much lower.

If you just talk about solo training, then I assume you should train both in order to be able to adapt into both situations.

The "high" Bong Shou can be very useful in grappling. when your right hand grab on your opponent's left upper lapel, if your opponent tries to punch you with his left hand, you can raise your right Bong Shou, hide your head next to it, and deflect your opponent's left punch.


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## jg_wc (May 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1) I prefer to look at this from general MA point of view instead. IMO when you pivot on your
> 
> - toes, you are not committed. If your opponent sweeps your leg, it's easier for you to lift that leg up and escape out of that sweep.
> - heel, you are committed. If your opponent sweeps your leg, it's harder for you to lift that leg up and escape out of that sweep.
> ...


I don't see how your committed when TURNING on your heels, any more than you would be turning on your toes. The pivot action takes a split second. 

You can be light on your feet in your usual fighting stance allowing you to move quickly and not let your leg be swept. You wouldn't be committed. But then when you need to turn, you can still turn on your heels, which takes a split second, then be light on your feet again.

Anyways we pivot on our heels. I've been told when pivoting on your toes your feet lose alignment slightly. a few consecutive turns on your toes and your structure will be gone.


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## Kwan Sau (May 22, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.
> 
> I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the  pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.
> 
> ...




First, WC takes a long time to learn and longer to master...personally, I'd say find ONE you like and stick with that art/system until you achieve combat competence. Dabbling in a handful of arts simultaneously is IMO simply ridiculous. 
Second: in Chum Kiu...the "pivot" is done on the heel. This has to do with angle changes, power generation, etc etc...  In chi sau, you turn / pivot as needed depending on what your chi sau partner is doing and the pressure you are receiving. 
Third: Bong sau... when you are learning...everything must have a 'baseline'. From there you adjust in/during application. So, for example wrist is on your CL and elbow is at same level as your own shoulder joint (i.e. use yourself as your baseline). When "applying" bong sau...your opponents height tells you how to apply your bong sau. 
PS: Bong sau is NOT a "block"  

Good luck in your training!


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## wingchun100 (May 22, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> First, WC takes a long time to learn and longer to master...personally, I'd say find ONE you like and stick with that art/system until you achieve combat competence. Dabbling in a handful of arts simultaneously is IMO simply ridiculous.



I was thinking this as well, but forgot to mention it when I replied!


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## JPinAZ (May 22, 2014)

Everyone does things differently for different reasoning. Example, in our lineage of wing chun we do not 'pivot' our feet at all in our chum kiu form. We pick the knee up and in, and the feet actually come off the ground when changing our facing (ie. 'pivoting'). This is part of our Leung Yi Ma footwork, and is also how we do it in application, chi sau or otherwise. This allows us to pick the proper reference point when changing our facing based on position and force coming from the opponent while still maintaining proper spacing for our structures (the kuit 'feet follow the hands' comes into play here).

For bong sau, I agree with those that say it depends on your opponent. Size is one factor, but also the contact point and leverage desired is also a factor. On top of that, it depends what type of bong you're talking about! 
Some use a bent wrist bong sau and some use a straight wrist. In my experience, both are applicable give the situation, facing and contact point of the bridge. Bent wrist (hok bong, or 'crane' bong) typically has a fwd nature with fingers shooting fwd on center and plays no higher than the shoulder height with the wrist, elbow and shoulder all in the same plane with contact point being on the mid for arm of the bong arm. The straight wrist bong (Ying bong, or 'eagle' bong) on the other hand typically ends with the elbow higher than the wrist and is usually used for shifting the line from center. The contact point here is usually closer to the wrist on the bong arm. At least, from my experience 

Again, everyone does things differently. But in the end, it's leverage point, facing and energy direction that tells us what is correct/incorrect from a WC principle pov vs lineage or what sifu says IMO.


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 22, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> First, WC takes a long time to learn and longer to master...personally, I'd say find ONE you like and stick with that art/system until you achieve combat competence. Dabbling in a handful of arts simultaneously is IMO simply ridiculous. /QUOTE]
> 
> In my circumstance I have 10+ years of Choy Li Fut currently not being formally taught due to relocating states 3 years ago as well as not being able to find a CMA School that I feel dedicating time to.
> 
> ...


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 22, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> When we are teaching beginners , to give them a reference point , we say to pivot from the middle of the foot.
> But a this stage they are only pivoting 45 degrees to either side.
> 
> The reality is that it is all about the center of gravity , as you pivot beyond 45 degrees to 90 degrees as in Chum Kiu , the center of gravity will naturally settle over the heel of the back leg.
> ...



Thanks for your time on explaining your methods of doing these techniques, it was very informative and well articulated.

Yes I agree about the relaxed Bong Sau Shoulder. My shoulder would get tired by the end of practice when I first began WC. 

I focused on the basic Tan/Bong variations which realy helped my Bong Sau & WC greatly. I still do that basic drill at least 4-5 times a week because I feel its one of the WC core technique combos for building good structure and Chi Sau.


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## Danny T (May 26, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> 1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau?
> 
> Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points?
> 
> ...


  Pivoting? In my linage we start off with learning pivoting in the SLT phase on the balls of the feet. Weight distribution is 90/10 rear/frt. In Chum Kiu we are more of a 60/40 and the shifting becomes more to the center of the foot. In Biu Jee we are closer to a 50/50 distribution and using the heels. Why? Because of the different situations one faces in fighting. Spoke with my instructor many years ago concerning the differences, his response; &#8220;sometimes you have to move more than others, sometimes the other person is simply in a better position and you can&#8217;t do what you want. You have to survive. Survival is more important than being a slave to particular way of moving your stance. Practice them all and use what is needed when it is needed.

  Same with bong sao. There is the form position and then there is the what is needed to work based upon the situation. Shoulder down and elbow slightly above the wrist. Height is based on what is needed. 

  Form is form = basic presentation. 
  Drills = learn when and how much
  Application = Do what you must to survive.

  The situation will always dictate what you will do and the manner you will do it.


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## futsaowingchun (May 28, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.
> 
> I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the  pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.
> 
> ...


rn the

It's been a long time I've been here so I will give my 2 cents..how you pivot matters only for the reason..In my Chum Kiu there is no pivot we just turn the waist..so there is no need to pivot..we only pivot when your need to move in another direction other wise no need to do that..when you pivot you unroot your self and can easly be controlled.
he


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> rn the
> 
> It's been a long time I've been here so I will give my 2 cents..how you pivot matters only for the reason..In my Chum Kiu there is no pivot we just turn the waist..so there is no need to pivot..we only pivot when your need to move in another direction other wise no need to do that..when you pivot you unroot your self and can easly be controlled.
> he



You'd have to post a video of that because I cannot visualize how you would do chum kiu without pivoting.


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## yak sao (May 29, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> rn the
> 
> It's been a long time I've been here so I will give my 2 cents..how you pivot matters only for the reason..In my Chum Kiu there is no pivot we just turn the waist..so there is no need to pivot..we only pivot when your need to move in another direction other wise no need to do that..when you pivot you unroot your self and can easly be controlled.
> he



In our lineage, CK is a pivot, turning the body as a unit. What you describe is more how we "pivot" within the Biu Tze form.


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## geezer (May 29, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> ...we only pivot when your need to move in another direction other wise no need to do that..when you pivot you unroot your self and can easly be controlled.



You _can_ remain rooted when you pivot _if you only turn one foot at a time_, shifting your weight from center (both feet rooted) to the side or what now becomes the rear foot in your turned-stance. Our goal is to remain rooted but still springy and yielding. The weight shift in response to heavy pressure is one way we accomplish this goal.

Sifu Alex (below) comes from essentially the same lineage as I do and demonstrates this clearly in the following clip:

How to Do Juen Ma aka Turning Stance | Wing Chun | Howcast


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 1, 2014)

geezer said:


> You _can_ remain rooted when you pivot _if you only turn one foot at a time_, shifting your weight from center (both feet rooted) to the side or what now becomes the rear foot in your turned-stance. Our goal is to remain rooted but still springy and yielding. The weight shift in response to heavy pressure is one way we accomplish this goal.
> 
> Sifu Alex (below) comes from essentially the same lineage as I do and demonstrates this clearly in the following clip:
> 
> ...




_I also do this but,but when you move your feet you move your root..which creates a compromise in your stance. the body should be like a tree.plant the legs,move the branches..i will post a clip of this later.._


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## mook jong man (Jun 2, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> _I also do this but,but when you move your feet you move your root..which creates a compromise in your stance. the body should be like a tree.plant the legs,move the branches..i will post a clip of this later.._



I can't say I agree with this at all.
As long as you can maintain balance while you are pivoting there should not be a problem.
Balance is balance , it does not matter whether the body is stationary or rotating , as long as the center of gravity is kept centered.

The only way the stance will be compromised is if the opponent manages to get to the side and you fail to pivot to follow him and face his centerline.

The other issue with not moving the legs is that in trying to generate power you are leaving part of your body mass out of the equation.
A bit hard to use your whole body mass in striking or other actions when your legs aren't coming along for the ride.

One of the principles for generating force in Wing Chun is that in order to generate force , all the force vectors must be going in the same direction you are trying to project your force.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 2, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> I can't say I agree with this at all.
> As long as you can maintain balance while you are pivoting there should not be a problem.
> Balance is balance , it does not matter whether the body is stationary or rotating , as long as the center of gravity is kept centered.
> 
> ...



Good response. I also can't agree with this "no pivoting" concept...probably because I can't even begin to visualize how he does his chum kiu without it. I'm going through the steps in my head: you do your double jam sao, then double lan sao...and then you HAVE to pivot. What is he saying, that he turns his body only from the waist up? That will leave you twisted and VERY easy to knock off balance.


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## yak sao (Jun 2, 2014)

One of my earlier lessons in Wing Tsun was that ultimately WT is not about structure, it is about movement. While structure is vastly important, without movement (pivoting, stepping, weight shifting), your structure and balance can be overcome.

Chum Kiu teaches this. The structure you learn from Siu Nim Tao is maintained as you move through space with stepping, pivoting and weight shifting.

futsaowingchun from the looks of his video looks like a pretty strong guy, and maybe the method he describes works for him. But good WC/VT/WT should be able to work for anyone, regardless of their physical strength.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 2, 2014)

yak sao said:


> One of my earlier lessons in Wing Tsun was that ultimately WT is not about structure, it is about movement. While structure is vastly important, without movement (pivoting, stepping, weight shifting), your structure and balance can be overcome.
> 
> Chum Kiu teaches this. The structure you learn from Siu Nim Tao is maintained as you move through space with stepping, pivoting and weight shifting.
> 
> futsaowingchun from the looks of his video looks like a pretty strong guy, and maybe the method he describes works for him. But good WC/VT/WT should be able to work for anyone, regardless of their physical strength.



I agree. From what I have seen and experienced in wing chun, strength has nothing to do with how hard a wing chun person can hit.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 5, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> You'd have to post a video of that because I cannot visualize how you would do chum kiu without pivoting.



STARTING AROUND 22 SECONDS YOU CAN SEE THE PIVOT WITHOUT TURNING THE FEET.


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## mook jong man (Jun 5, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> STARTING AROUND 22 SECONDS YOU CAN SEE THE PIVOT WITHOUT TURNING THE FEET.



Mate , that is eventually going to screw both your knees up.
Seriously , my cartilage hurts just watching you do it.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 5, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> I can't say I agree with this at all.
> As long as you can maintain balance while you are pivoting there should not be a problem.
> Balance is balance , it does not matter whether the body is stationary or rotating , as long as the center of gravity is kept centered.
> 
> ...





It's really not about balance..it is more with dealing with being controlled an up rooted..when you turn your hips and feet away from your opponent he can control your hips and shoulder spine and centerline so it makes it difficult for you to turn back..when you keep your legs and hips pointing twords your opponets center of mass its very difficult for him to control your root because your still facing him..the other way you lose your facing..and wont be able to come back to face..also there is no lose in power I twist my body the way you twist a wet towel out. Try it out for your self and see..


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 5, 2014)

geezer said:


> You _can_ remain rooted when you pivot _if you only turn one foot at a time_, shifting your weight from center (both feet rooted) to the side or what now becomes the rear foot in your turned-stance. Our goal is to remain rooted but still springy and yielding. The weight shift in response to heavy pressure is one way we accomplish this goal.
> 
> Sifu Alex (below) comes from essentially the same lineage as I do and demonstrates this clearly in the following clip:
> 
> ...





IMHO  this not not would I would want to do..you have no facing and no control over your structure...In our lineage this is a no no


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> IMHO  this not not would I would want to do..you have no facing and no control over your structure...In our lineage this is a no no



r.e._ "Facing" _...in this method you always track your opponent's center. In solo practice (where the student is arbitrarily turing 45 degrees) this may not be apparent. As far as _"controlling structure"_ the body moves as a unit so structure is maintained. By only pivoting the unweighted/front foot, the weighted/rear foot remains firmly rooted, in contrast to other branches that move both feet at the same time.

In fact, I see significant conceptual similarity between your pivoting and what I do, except that like _Mook, my _old knees scream when they watch that first set of 90 degree body pivots with the feet planted frontally. But then again, I have bad knees (old skiing and grappling injuries). Regardless, thanks for sharing the clip.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 5, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> I can't say I agree with this at all.
> As long as you can maintain balance while you are pivoting there should not be a problem.
> Balance is balance , it does not matter whether the body is stationary or rotating , as long as the center of gravity is kept centered.
> 
> ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My turning is closer to that of mok jong than to Leung Ting or Fut sao wing chun.
We are talking about development I think. In actuality many kinds of adaptations can occur.


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## Marnetmar (Jun 5, 2014)

In my lineage (Leung Sheung/Kenneth Chung) we pivot by placing our weight on our front knee before we pivot.


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> My turning is closer to that of mok jong than to Leung Ting or Fut sao wing chun.
> *We are talking about development I think. In actuality many kinds of adaptations can occur.*



Exactly. Maybe if people would consider this for a moment, they wouldn't go on for dozens of posts bickering. Oh wait a minute. I'm not on _that_ forum. Nevermind. LOL


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> In my lineage (Leung Sheung/Kenneth Chung) we pivot by placing our weight on our front knee before we pivot.



Assuming you are starting from Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma or Character Two stance, would that be the knee that _becomes the front? _ ...or the rear after you pivot?

If its the leg that becomes the front, then you would have a _front-weighted stance_ (unusual in WC). 

Since my old sifu favored a back-weighted stance, and he began his training under Leung Sheung, I'm assuming you mean that you weight the leg that _becomes _your rear leg after you pivot --much the same as I do.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 5, 2014)

Dude, I tore the ligaments in MY knees just watching that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 5, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Mate , that is eventually going to screw both your knees up.
> Seriously , my cartilage hurts just watching you do it.




If done correctly it wont damage your knees or ankles..If you noticed I perform the movement slowly not fast its done as a stretch,slow is the key..In the SLT the wrist is stretched,the hips,knees and ankles in the Chum Kiu.Then continued in Bil Tzu form..Power comes from the elasticity of the tendons and joints. I have been doing this for 32 yrs I have no problem with my joints..


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 5, 2014)

yak sao said:


> One of my earlier lessons in Wing Tsun was that ultimately WT is not about structure, it is about movement. While structure is vastly important, without movement (pivoting, stepping, weight shifting), your structure and balance can be overcome.
> 
> Chum Kiu teaches this. The structure you learn from Siu Nim Tao is maintained as you move through space with stepping, pivoting and weight shifting.
> 
> futsaowingchun from the looks of his video looks like a pretty strong guy, and maybe the method he describes works for him. But good WC/VT/WT should be able to work for anyone, regardless of their physical strength.


age


I agree wck should work for everyone..and I teach it differently for each student because everyone has a different body type. Actually,when i started in wck i was just avaerage size guy..


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## Marnetmar (Jun 5, 2014)

geezer said:


> Since my old sifu favored a back-weighted stance, and he began his training under Leung Sheung, I'm assuming you mean that you weight the leg that _becomes _your rear leg after you pivot --much the same as I do.



Yes, this is what I am referring to.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 6, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> If done correctly it wont damage your knees or ankles..If you noticed I perform the movement slowly not fast its done as a stretch,slow is the key..In the SLT the wrist is stretched,the hips,knees and ankles in the Chum Kiu.Then continued in Bil Tzu form..Power comes from the elasticity of the tendons and joints. I have been doing this for 32 yrs I have no problem with my joints..



You pivot slowly. Okay, so what if someone is attacking you from your right side? Pivoting slowly won't cut it when someone is rushing at you.


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## Marnetmar (Jun 6, 2014)

I think he's referring to it being done as a stretch _in the form_, not in application.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 6, 2014)

The way you practice is the way you will fight. The forms set up your structure to perform the system. If the structure in forms is bad, then your self-defense will be bad.


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> You pivot slowly. Okay, so what if someone is attacking you from your right side? Pivoting slowly won't cut it when someone is rushing at you.



In my experience, when someone is rushing at you, you tend to move faster. Just because _Fut Sao_ moves at a measured pace in the form doesn't mean he moves slowly in application. I have learned the hard way that assumptions based on appearance can be misleading.

Oh, another thing ...if someone is attacking you suddenly  from the side, you don't _have_ to pivot before counter-attacking. In most WC systems we have plenty of _lateral attacks_ (fak sau, side kick, slant thrust kick, etc.) in chum kiu intended for just such situations. I'm sure it's the same for_ Fut Sao._


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## wingchun100 (Jun 6, 2014)

geezer said:


> In my experience, when someone is rushing at you, you tend to move faster. Just because _Fut Sao_ moves at a measured pace in the form doesn't mean he moves slowly in application. I have learned the hard way that assumptions based on appearance can be misleading.



Maybe not, but I still say you will fight the way you practice. Does this mean we should really hit and give each other black eyes and less teeth every class? No, but there are ways to still practice your punches right without doing that: wall bags so you can hit full force...making sure you enter deep enough where you COULD actually hit...proper release of energy, etc. But you won't even have to worry about hitting hard if your structure is bad.


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## mook jong man (Jun 6, 2014)

l'm thinking an opponent not directly to the side , but maybe situated about 45 degrees.

If he only pivots his upper body to face that threat , then the fact remains if he wants to follow up and chase the target he has to then re-orientate his feet to point in the direction he wants them to go which is after the opponent.

Now granted it might only take a little bit longer for him to reposition his feet , but in conventional Wing Chun pivoting where the whole body pivots as a unit the feet are already in position to give chase or kick etc.

This is apart from the other issue where I believe he is only using the upper body to generate force.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 7, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> You pivot slowly. Okay, so what if someone is attacking you from your right side? Pivoting slowly won't cut it when someone is rushing at you.



how you practice a form apply it is two different things. The forms build of the body it does not teach you to apply it that way. This is what you do in this case. you turn also turning the feet using the gan sao.



  ( starting at 1:08) of course if someone attack you fast you move fast.the form is not about fighting just development.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 7, 2014)

yes your right..in application you move fast..in tai chi you move slow it does not mean you apply it that way..it's just common sense..


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## JPinAZ (Jun 13, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> If done correctly it wont damage your knees or ankles..If you noticed I perform the movement slowly not fast its done as a stretch,slow is the key..In the SLT the wrist is stretched,the hips,knees and ankles in the Chum Kiu.Then continued in Bil Tzu form..Power comes from the elasticity of the tendons and joints. I have been doing this for 32 yrs I have no problem with my joints..



Not saying you can't do it, but how do you pivot slowly as a stretch and without injury at the full speed of a fight?


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Jun 13, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> STARTING AROUND 22 SECONDS YOU CAN SEE THE PIVOT WITHOUT TURNING THE FEET.



Pardon my ignorance, but what lineage is this please?

I'm a beginner in WT and this is so different to the CK taught in my school that it blew mind! I'm guessing it must be non-Yip Man?


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 13, 2014)

Hi,Yes it's a non Ip Man lineage..it's called Fut Sao Wing Chun...if you like you can go to my website and I have the history and articles I wrote..

Fut Sao (Buddha Hand) Wing Chun - Sifu Michael Mc Ilwrath


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 13, 2014)

In a fight I would not not turn a full 180 degree as it is not necessary. It's like practicing to kick high but you apply the kicks low. the forms build of the body.its not about fighting with them.


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## lsanczyk (Sep 2, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Maybe not, but I still say you will fight the way you practice. Does this mean we should really hit and give each other black eyes and less teeth every class? No, but there are ways to still practice your punches right without doing that: wall bags so you can hit full force...making sure you enter deep enough where you COULD actually hit...proper release of energy, etc. But you won't even have to worry about hitting hard if your structure is bad.


He doesn't pivot only when the distance is not changing. He does it when he steps, or even when he does a double "gan sao". I don't know what would he do in a "oponent rounded him at perfect distance" situation, but he seems to be training it in both ways.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Sep 2, 2016)

Nice one of the first threads I created lives on. I think bong sau it's a good subject to discuss since it's one of the moves that different lineages or instructors teach very differently. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## anerlich (Sep 5, 2016)

I take very small steps to pivot. Probably pivoting on the ball of the foot. I prefer a more mobile structure to being rooted like an oak tree.

Bon sao is done at various heights, but we take the elbow above the shoulder where it is done high in the form, to better protect the head. The choice of bon over other blocks IMO is not due to the height of the attack but the angle it is coming in from.

Wanna argue? Pick someone else. I'm just answering the question.


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## Herbie (Sep 14, 2016)

geezer said:


> ... I would not recommend WC/WT/VT as a "supplemental" art. The system has narrow tolerances...


I'll second that opinion.  I tried really hard to empty my cup, and keep my WC separate from my previous training.  Couldn't do it.  In my experience, you can't do a little WC.  All in, or don't do it.  In my sifu's school, you weren't going to advance until your structure and movements fit in the WC box.  And you don't see new material until you advance.  Nothing wrong with that.  But, a man has to know his limitations.  In my case, moved on.


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