# Prison Overcrowding



## MJS (Dec 15, 2008)

In another thread, Cryozombie and I had the following exchange. To avoid hijacking the good cop/bad cop thread, I thought I'd start this one to discuss the comments. 





> Originally Posted by *Cryozombie*
> 
> 
> _The term Scumbags in my post referred to actual criminals. You know... the small percentage of overall Americans that make the cops job a necessity. _
> ...


 


> John, with all due respect, I bef to differ on the small percentage comment. If it was really that small, then why do we hear so much about prison overcrowding?


 
So, I guess the question is...is there overcrowding?  Is it because there are people in there for crimes in which they probably shouldn't be or are the crimes really worth putting them in?


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## Empty Hands (Dec 15, 2008)

MJS said:


> So, I guess the question is...is there overcrowding?  Is it because there are people in there for crimes in which they probably shouldn't be or are the crimes really worth putting them in?



You are both right, as far as it goes.  The United States has more prisoners than any other single nation.  While only having 5% of the world population, we have 25% of the world's prisoners.  Our prisons are indeed overcrowded, although most of the overcrowding and the high number of prisoners are due to nonviolent drug offences, mostly simple possession.  

That said, we have about 751 people in prison per 100,000 population, which works out to 0.75% of the population in prison.  That's still a pretty small fraction of our overall population.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 15, 2008)

execute more scumbags

that will ease the over crowding


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## Drac (Dec 15, 2008)

Hard to believe there is over crowding when it seems that 1/2 the POS's I bring in are back on the streets in less than 24 hrs...They tried that  "Home Jail" program up here, where they fit the accused with a tracker band...The aggressive little darlings learn how to pick the lock and the they leave it behind while they head back out to meet up with their homies...


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## kenpofighter (Dec 15, 2008)

Our prisons are over crowed, full of druggies and rapists. I some times wonder if we ever accomplish anything, as far as *long term* goes. Because most of these guys as soon as they are out of their cell they are right back to doing whatever it was they were doing before. But I know all the years rapist is sitting in jail (taking up space and tax money) he is not out harming anyone else.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 15, 2008)

expand the list of capitol crimes and cut the execution appeals process to 36 months maximum.

problem solved

now, what can or should be made a capitol crime that isnt?

child molestation-if you have DNA proof, they cannot be cured, they WILL molest again
forced rape-same same
distribution of drugs to children-they deserve to die

just those 3 types of criminals will ease prison populations by a good chunk


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## Cryozombie (Dec 15, 2008)

I think we need to look long and hard at some of the things we send people to jail for. 

For example, If a Deadbeat dad is not paying his childsupport, is 6 months in lockup helping the situation?  


​


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## Twin Fist (Dec 15, 2008)

getting prison raped for 6 months would make sure i didnt miss another payment...........


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## Big Don (Dec 15, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> I think we need to look long and hard at some of the things we send people to jail for.
> For example, If a Deadbeat dad is not paying his childsupport, is 6 months in lockup helping the situation?​


​ Yeah, ensuring someone cannot work is a really great way of getting them to pay bills...


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## Big Don (Dec 15, 2008)

Put an end to the idiot idea that prison is for rehabilitation. Prison is for PUNISHMENT. Remember that the Thirteenth Amendment specifically allows slavery and involuntary servitude as punishment for crimes. Don't put skilled individuals to work picking up garbage, that is a waste of training and talent. Utilize the skills of criminals. 
Take all recreational privileges away from all convicted criminals. Make all convicted criminals work and do NOT pay them.


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## kenpofighter (Dec 15, 2008)

I think most all the prisoners should be outside in tents, work hard, wear pink underwear, no tv, eat MREs, get their own water from wells...ya get the ideal.

This might make them think twice about what they do once they get out.


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## Big Don (Dec 15, 2008)

kenpofighter said:


> I think most all the prisoners should be outside in tents, work hard, wear pink underwear, no tv, eat MREs, get their own water from wells...ya get the ideal.
> 
> This might make them think twice about what they do once they get out.


A fan of Joe Arpaio!
Being a criminal should be shameful!  Bring back the Stocks! RENT them to non-violent first time offenders.


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## MJS (Dec 15, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> You are both right, as far as it goes. The United States has more prisoners than any other single nation. While only having 5% of the world population, we have 25% of the world's prisoners. Our prisons are indeed overcrowded, although most of the overcrowding and the high number of prisoners are due to nonviolent drug offences, mostly simple possession.
> 
> That said, we have about 751 people in prison per 100,000 population, which works out to 0.75% of the population in prison. That's still a pretty small fraction of our overall population.


 
Just wanted to say 2 things.  First, out of curiosity, where did you come up with the stats?  Is there a link that gives additional info, etc?  Second, IMO, there is nothing about prison that deters people.  I mean, most people, at least those with some common sense, would not want to repeatedly visit a place that is not comfortable.  So when you have all the comforts of home, and then some...well, I think you know where I'm going.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 15, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> getting prison raped for 6 months would make sure i didnt miss another payment...........


 
Other than the 6 months worth that you miss while you are in right? That helps the mother and kids.  Uh huh.

And TECHNICALLY, the 6 months isn't for missing the payment... its for Contempt of Court for not paying your court ordered fines.  *rolls eyes*


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## MJS (Dec 15, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> execute more scumbags
> 
> that will ease the over crowding


 


Drac said:


> Hard to believe there is over crowding when it seems that 1/2 the POS's I bring in are back on the streets in less than 24 hrs...They tried that "Home Jail" program up here, where they fit the accused with a tracker band...The aggressive little darlings learn how to pick the lock and the they leave it behind while they head back out to meet up with their homies...


 
Good points.  It amazes me how long people sit on death row for crimes that they did years ago.  And yes, I know some will say, "Well, what if that person is really innocent, etc." and yes, thats true.  But, if all the fingers are pointing towards guilty, why wait?

As for Dracs post...I hear ya man.  I have to laugh when they arrest someone.  The friggin guy isnt even in lockup yet and the phone is ringing, with a relative, friend, etc. is calling to find out how much bail is.


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## MJS (Dec 15, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> expand the list of capitol crimes and cut the execution appeals process to 36 months maximum.
> 
> problem solved
> 
> ...


 
Agreed.  I mean really, if people cant figure out whether or not someone is guilty is that amount of time, vs. the years that some of them sit, then that tells me theres a serious issue somewhere.


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## MJS (Dec 15, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Put an end to the idiot idea that prison is for rehabilitation. Prison is for PUNISHMENT. Remember that the Thirteenth Amendment specifically allows slavery and involuntary servitude as punishment for crimes. Don't put skilled individuals to work picking up garbage, that is a waste of training and talent. Utilize the skills of criminals.
> Take all recreational privileges away from all convicted criminals. Make all convicted criminals work and do NOT pay them.


 
AMEN!!!  4hrs of rec time to shower, watch tv, play board games, phone calls, visits, etc.  Wait a minute, I thought these guys were in prison, not club med.



kenpofighter said:


> I think most all the prisoners should be outside in tents, work hard, wear pink underwear, no tv, eat MREs, get their own water from wells...ya get the ideal.
> 
> This might make them think twice about what they do once they get out.


 
Exactly my point of making it a place that you don't want to come back to. 



Cryozombie said:


> Other than the 6 months worth that you miss while you are in right? That helps the mother and kids. Uh huh.
> 
> And TECHNICALLY, the 6 months isn't for missing the payment... its for Contempt of Court for not paying your court ordered fines. *rolls eyes*


 
What really needs to happen, is these guys need to be forced to get their lazy *** to work.  I don't care if its McDonalds or picking up garbage on the side of the road.  Make them work.  And perhaps send them to the doc for a little snip.  Maybe then we won't have to worry about them producing 10 kids with 10 different women.   People always ask my wife and I when we're having kids.  I say I can't afford them, because I'm paying for all of the other kids that the dead-beat dads forgot about.


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## Drac (Dec 16, 2008)

MJS said:


> What really needs to happen, is these guys need to be forced to get their lazy *** to work. I don't care if its McDonalds or picking up garbage on the side of the road.


 
I'm for bringing back the chain-gangs I use to see driving through the Southern States..






MJS said:


> And perhaps send them to the doc for a little snip. Maybe then we won't have to worry about them producing 10 kids with 10 different women.


 
Good idea, but it will NEVER happen..There is documented case up here of this crack-hoe that has 9 kids from 9 different daddies.. The suggestion of sterilization has brought up and you never heard such an outcrying of nay nay..Why punish this poor woman





MJS said:


> People always ask my wife and I when we're having kids. I say I can't afford them, because I'm paying for all of the other kids that the dead-beat dads forgot about.


 
Amen....


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## MJS (Dec 16, 2008)

Drac said:


> I'm for bringing back the chain-gangs I use to see driving through the Southern States..


 
I see State DOT workers doing this.  Why not bring back the chain gangs, as you said.  They're getting fresh air, exercise, and doing something positive for the community. 








> Good idea, but it will NEVER happen..There is documented case up here of this crack-hoe that has 9 kids from 9 different daddies.. The suggestion of sterilization has brought up and you never heard such an outcrying of nay nay..Why punish this poor woman


 
Yes, God forbid we deprive these innocent folks of having kids. *rolls eyes*







> Amen....


 
Thanks.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 16, 2008)

MJS said:


> What really needs to happen, is these guys need to be forced to get their lazy *** to work. I don't care if its McDonalds or picking up garbage on the side of the road. Make them work.


 
Yup.  This is a MUCH better solution than tossing them in Jail because:

a)  It frees up space
b) It puts them in a position to pay thereby helping the family that needs it

Although In many cases they are working and just not paying... in which case a Garnishment is more practical than tossing them in the overcrowded prison system.


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## seasoned (Dec 16, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> getting prison raped for 6 months would make sure i didnt miss another payment...........


 
Ok, I almost chocked on my coffee, over that one. Sounds like a winner to me.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 16, 2008)

Real simple.

Initiate a total lockdown.

Determine which inmates are on death row or have done crimes such as those outlined in earlier posts which either cannot be cured or otherwise require and/or deserve death.

Take the list.

Distribute weapons and ammo amongst guards.

Make your start in D block.


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## MJS (Dec 16, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Yup. This is a MUCH better solution than tossing them in Jail because:
> 
> a) It frees up space
> b) It puts them in a position to pay thereby helping the family that needs it
> ...


 
Downside of that, is I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't try to get a job where they were paid 'under the table.'  Then again, the courts, I suppose, could place him in a job, where a portion of his pay was taken.


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## punisher73 (Dec 16, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Yup. This is a MUCH better solution than tossing them in Jail because:
> 
> a) It frees up space
> b) It puts them in a position to pay thereby helping the family that needs it
> ...


 
The problem of child support is not an easy one to do.  I was assigned to our transport division for around 3 years and had to sit in literally HUNDREDS of different FOC hearings.  I can only speak for our county, but I noticed the following.

1) They aren't trying to hammer everyone that misses a payment.  The only time they are sent to jail is when they don't show up for their court hearing on why they haven't payed.  I have seen plenty of people show up that have missed payments due to loss of job etc and the judge would give them some time to start up again if they were making payments regularly before.  The biggest thing I saw was guys not making payments due to loss of their job and just didn't pay, they NEVER talked to their case workers about it and kept them informed of their situations.  

2) Garnishment sounds like a good idea, but I have seen TOO MANY guys that get paid under the table to avoid that, or bounce from job to job to avoid making payments and garnishments.

3) In our county, even if you are found in contempt you are given 90 days (which is the max in Michigan on a civil contempt for this).  They are given time served for 2 weeks so they qualify for work furlough.  This allows them to get out of jail and get a job (or if they have a job, go back to working) part of the agreement is that they must set up an automatic withdrawl of their support so it is sent automatically.  Again, I see LOTS of guys that just don't do it, they just don't want to pay PERIOD.

That being said, I realize that there are some guys that get caught in the system, but the vast majority of people in jail for FOC is because they are CHOOSING not to comply with the court orders.

I also don't buy the statistic of "non-violent" drug users crowding our prisons.  How are they defining that one?  In Michigan with sentencing guidelines you are not going to prison on a simple possession charge unless you have some other things involved like...

1) You have committed MULTIPLE felonies in the past that raise your guidelines

2) You are already on Parole from a previous prison stay

3) You had ALOT of drugs and were sent for selling/delivary of them

4) Multiple arrests for drugs will increase the penalty also

Here is a link with some statistics on drug use and prisons
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/10so.htm

Our society puts up with alot of crap from people before we put them away.  It is rare that a first time offender on a minor felony gets sent to prison.  You usually work your way up by exhausting other methods first.


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## shesulsa (Dec 16, 2008)

Wow - a lot of things to address.

The deadbeat parent is pretty much a whole other topic we should really go into on this board, so I'll start a thread in the Study later when I have time to dig up some references.  But I think the reason they jail dead beat parents is because that sector is the cause for a large portion of welfare families.  More than half the people on welfare are children.  Wanna reduce the national debt? Federally enforce child support and put those people who repeatedly don't pay on a federally secured job program where they have to work and their pay is docked. 

I also think in every custody case and divorce cases involving children that wage and benefit garnishment for the non-custodial parent should be mandated federally.  That way when Shirking Sally moves from So. Cal. to Las Vegas to avoid paying her old man rent for her kids the cross-state cooperation will be more efficient.  



Cryozombie said:


> I think we need to look long and hard at some of the things we send people to jail for.​




I don't disagree.  I think possession of a joint, pipe or roach clip is nothing compared to a kilo of cocaine.  I also think people who hurt others in self-defense should be released.  Write to Governor Schwarzenegger about the women on his review list.​ 


Twin Fist said:


> getting prison raped for 6 months would make sure i didnt miss another payment...........



Ya think?  Hasn't worked for too many so far ... of course it's just far too easy to pay someone cash under the table instead of reporting them and paying the burden.  Can't legislate ethics, eh?



Big Don said:


> [/left]
> Yeah, ensuring someone cannot work is a really great way of getting them to pay bills...



Hard to argue ... see my suggestion above.



Big Don said:


> Put an end to the idiot idea that prison is for rehabilitation. Prison is for PUNISHMENT. Remember that the Thirteenth Amendment specifically allows slavery and involuntary servitude as punishment for crimes. Don't put skilled individuals to work picking up garbage, that is a waste of training and talent. Utilize the skills of criminals.



Mmmmm ... there's good and bad in that.  Some ex-cons can be rehabilitated.  Case-in-point, I came across a fella who had a felony record for burglary when he was 19.  Nineteen.  Young, dumb and full of ... something.  He's 48 now and that felony is still on his record even though he never reoffended. Would you say he was rehabilitated?  It's not impossible, though I acknowledge that it's rare due to several factors, not all of which are under the perp's control.



> Take all recreational privileges away from all convicted criminals. Make all convicted criminals work and do NOT pay them.



That's been tried and it serves to create an extremely tense atmosphere.  I don't disagree with hard physical labor for most inmates - seems to wear off some testosterone and boost the dopamine levels.  There's brain chemistry to take into account, not just behavior. Remember - all behavior is communication ... you just have to know how to listen.



Cryozombie said:


> Other than the 6 months worth that you miss while you are in right? That helps the mother and kids.  Uh huh.
> 
> And TECHNICALLY, the 6 months isn't for missing the payment... its for Contempt of Court for not paying your court ordered fines.  *rolls eyes*



Because they had to define the technicality to use the thread of jail/prison as incentive.  Pay up or get butt-raped.  Some find it an easy choice, others run from the law.



MJS said:


> AMEN!!!  4hrs of rec time to shower, watch tv, play board games, phone calls, visits, etc.  Wait a minute, I thought these guys were in prison, not club med.
> 
> Exactly my point of making it a place that you don't want to come back to.



See my point above. 



> What really needs to happen, is these guys need to be forced to get their lazy *** to work.  I don't care if its McDonalds or picking up garbage on the side of the road.  Make them work.  And perhaps send them to the doc for a little snip.  Maybe then we won't have to worry about them producing 10 kids with 10 different women.   People always ask my wife and I when we're having kids.  I say I can't afford them, because I'm paying for all of the other kids that the dead-beat dads forgot about.



Preach to the choir!!!  I think in some states that the welfare office can force the condition of sterilization.  I'm ALL for that ... but I think the problem is that can interfere with religious beliefs - legally anyway.



MJS said:


> Downside of that, is I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't try to get a job where they were paid 'under the table.'  Then again, the courts, I suppose, could place him in a job, where a portion of his pay was taken.



Oh gawd, it happens all the freakin' time. How many contractors to build or remodel your home have benefits? Ever wonder why?

Y'all might not know this, but in most states it is not required to report new hires to the state board of support enforcement.  There are many voluntary programs, but none are mandated (to my knowledge).  So if your company hires Joe or Jane Slacker who has warrants out for failure to pay child support you don't have to tell anyone that you hired them for a $100,000 sales manager job.  So tracking them becomes near impossible. Even if the IRS or SS departments find activity on their SSN and flag it for support enforcement and SE sends a letter to the possible employer, that employer doesn't have to even respond.

See?  I told you child support enforcement should be a separate topic.

But these folks were given jail as an alternative in the hopes of a cheap and easy deterrent to non-payment. Same with suspended driver's licenses.  But we can all see how well those deterrents work.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 16, 2008)

MJS said:


> First, out of curiosity, where did you come up with the stats?  Is there a link that gives additional info, etc?



http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm



MJS said:


> Second, IMO, there is nothing about prison that deters people.



Other than that whole loss of freedom plus plenty of rape thing?


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## Empty Hands (Dec 16, 2008)

Man, some of you people are disturbing.  Remind me not to get on your bad sides.


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## shesulsa (Dec 16, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Man, some of you people are disturbing.  Remind me not to get on your bad sides.



Okay. Don't get on my bad side.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 16, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Man, some of you people are disturbing. Remind me not to get on your bad sides.


 

*shrug* I said simple, not necessarily "easy".


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## Big Don (Dec 16, 2008)

Tense? Make any attack (even Verbal) on guards (who, now that they are in a union are called Corrections Officers) a felony with an automatic 5 year (at labor) sentence, no plea bargaining. Still tense? They obviously aren't working hard or long enough.


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## MJS (Dec 16, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> The problem of child support is not an easy one to do. I was assigned to our transport division for around 3 years and had to sit in literally HUNDREDS of different FOC hearings. I can only speak for our county, but I noticed the following.
> 
> 1) They aren't trying to hammer everyone that misses a payment. The only time they are sent to jail is when they don't show up for their court hearing on why they haven't payed. I have seen plenty of people show up that have missed payments due to loss of job etc and the judge would give them some time to start up again if they were making payments regularly before. The biggest thing I saw was guys not making payments due to loss of their job and just didn't pay, they NEVER talked to their case workers about it and kept them informed of their situations.
> 
> ...


 
If they don't pay, refuse to get a job, etc., then lock their rear up.  If they can't live up to their end of the deal, then they shouldn't be free to walk around. 



> I also don't buy the statistic of "non-violent" drug users crowding our prisons. How are they defining that one? In Michigan with sentencing guidelines you are not going to prison on a simple possession charge unless you have some other things involved like...
> 
> 1) You have committed MULTIPLE felonies in the past that raise your guidelines
> 
> ...


 
Agreed.


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## Big Don (Dec 16, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Wow - a lot of things to address.
> 
> The deadbeat parent is pretty much a whole other topic we should really go into on this board, so I'll start a thread in the Study later when I have time to dig up some references.  But I think the reason they jail dead beat parents is because that sector is the cause for a large portion of welfare families.  More than half the people on welfare are children.  Wanna reduce the national debt? Federally enforce child support and put those people who repeatedly don't pay on a federally secured job program where they have to work and their pay is docked.
> 
> I also think in every custody case and divorce cases involving children that wage and benefit garnishment for the non-custodial parent should be mandated federally.  That way when Shirking Sally moves from So. Cal. to Las Vegas to avoid paying her old man rent for her kids the cross-state cooperation will be more efficient.


Thank you for mentioning that not all deadbeat parents are fathers. As the father of a son with a deadbeat mother (awkward way to put it?) the focus of "deadbeat dad this" and "deadbeat dad that" is a tad annoying.


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## MJS (Dec 16, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Preach to the choir!!! I think in some states that the welfare office can force the condition of sterilization. I'm ALL for that ... but I think the problem is that can interfere with religious beliefs - legally anyway.


 
Of course, another option would be to limit how long someone can milk, er, I mean, use the system.   I know times are hard, especially in todays world, but like I said, I don't give a crap if you work at McDonalds...GET A JOB!!!  If someone knew that in say 5 mos, their free ride would end, that may inspire those lazy ones to get off their *** and pound the pavement.





> Oh gawd, it happens all the freakin' time. How many contractors to build or remodel your home have benefits? Ever wonder why?
> 
> Y'all might not know this, but in most states it is not required to report new hires to the state board of support enforcement. There are many voluntary programs, but none are mandated (to my knowledge). So if your company hires Joe or Jane Slacker who has warrants out for failure to pay child support you don't have to tell anyone that you hired them for a $100,000 sales manager job. So tracking them becomes near impossible. Even if the IRS or SS departments find activity on their SSN and flag it for support enforcement and SE sends a letter to the possible employer, that employer doesn't have to even respond.
> 
> ...


 
Yup, sadly there're more POS people running around and the system can't keep up, so the good ones suffer.  Par for the course I guess.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 16, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Tense? Make any attack (even Verbal) on guards (who, now that they are in a union are called Corrections Officers) a felony with an automatic 5 year (at labor) sentence, no plea bargaining. Still tense? They obviously aren't working hard or long enough.



Enjoy the riots.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 16, 2008)

My 0.02...

In part due to people being in prison that would be better served by a mental hospital or rehab program. There's people sitting in jail with longer terms for being an addict than those for being a rapist. 

Where's the logic in keeping someone locked up longer for hurting themselves (which could be debated) than for someone that really hurt another person?


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## MJS (Dec 16, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm


 
Thanks. 





> Other than that whole loss of freedom plus plenty of rape thing?


 
True.  However, the fact still remains that they get alot of comfy things as well.  Perhaps if they were allowed out for 1hr only per day, in addition to eating in their cell...well, the thought of sitting in a shoebox for 23 out of 24, just may be what it takes.


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## MJS (Dec 16, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> My 0.02...
> 
> In part due to people being in prison that would be better served by a mental hospital or rehab program. There's people sitting in jail with longer terms for being an addict than those for being a rapist.
> 
> Where's the logic in keeping someone locked up longer for hurting themselves (which could be debated) than for someone that really hurt another person?


 
2 way street IMO.  Part of the treatment is wanting to be treated.  Believe me, I used to see 20 people get up and leave to go to AA, Bible Study and all of the other programs that're offered.  I had to wonder...are they really looking for help or is this a way to get out of the block for a few?


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## Empty Hands (Dec 16, 2008)

MJS said:


> However, the fact still remains that they get alot of comfy things as well.  Perhaps if they were allowed out for 1hr only per day, in addition to eating in their cell...well, the thought of sitting in a shoebox for 23 out of 24, just may be what it takes.



From the accounts of corrections officers I have seen, they prefer that the inmates have some amenities.  It makes the inmates feel like they have something, and cuts down on bad behavior.  Plus it gives you something to take away for that bad behavior.

The 23/24 method is basically the SuperMax, which would be fantastically expensive to apply for all inmates.  Not to mention unnecessary and inhumane.  It's essentially an entire term of solitary confinement.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 16, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Enjoy the riots.



if they riot,i dont know, SHOOT THEM maybe?


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## Twin Fist (Dec 16, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> My 0.02...
> 
> In part due to people being in prison that would be better served by a mental hospital or rehab program. There's people sitting in jail with longer terms for being an addict than those for being a rapist.
> 
> Where's the logic in keeping someone locked up longer for hurting themselves (which could be debated) than for someone that really hurt another person?




drug addicts dont get locked up for being addicts, they get locked up for breaking the law, as in buying drugs, using drugs, and all the crime that is associated with drugs, like the car jackings, and robberies that addicts all do to pay for thier habits


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## Twin Fist (Dec 16, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> From the accounts of corrections officers I have seen, they prefer that the inmates have some amenities.  It makes the inmates feel like they have something, and cuts down on bad behavior.  Plus it gives you something to take away for that bad behavior.
> 
> The 23/24 method is basically the SuperMax, which would be fantastically expensive to apply for all inmates.  Not to mention unnecessary and inhumane.  It's essentially an entire term of solitary confinement.




wrong answer again

supermax requires less gaurds, less facilities (gyms, libraries, classrooms etc), less medical staff (everyone in solitary, less injuries), less of everything.


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## Drac (Dec 16, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> From the accounts of corrections officers I have seen, they prefer that the inmates have some amenities. It makes the inmates feel like they have something, and cuts down on bad behavior. Plus it gives you something to take away for that bad behavior.
> 
> The 23/24 method is basically the SuperMax, which would be fantastically expensive to apply for all inmates. Not to mention unnecessary and inhumane. It's essentially an entire term of solitary confinement.


 


Twin Fist said:


> wrong answer again
> 
> supermax requires less gaurds, less facilities (gyms, libraries, classrooms etc), less medical staff (everyone in solitary, less injuries), less of everything.


 
I agree with Twin Fist on this one..I know a lot of CO's that would transfer to a Supermax in heartbeat...BTW bad behavior is rewarded by time in the hole...


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## Empty Hands (Dec 16, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> if they riot,i dont know, SHOOT THEM maybe?



They do that.  It still doesn't stop guards from getting hurt or killed.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 16, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> wrong answer again
> 
> supermax requires less gaurds, less facilities (gyms, libraries, classrooms etc), less medical staff (everyone in solitary, less injuries), less of everything.



Nope.  "According to a study by the Urban Institute, the per-cell cost of a Supermax is about $75,000 annually, compared to $25,000 for each cell in an ordinary state prison." LINK

Think about it for a minute.  You have an entire facility, that houses about 500 inmates. Meanwhile, other facilities, even max security ones, house thousands.


----------



## Empty Hands (Dec 16, 2008)

Drac said:


> I agree with Twin Fist on this one..I know a lot of CO's that would transfer to a Supermax in heartbeat...



See my post above to TF.  In any case, I don't see why CO's wanting to work in one makes them cheaper.



Drac said:


> BTW bad behavior is rewarded by time in the hole...



Exactly my point.  If inmates are already functionally "in the hole" on a permanent basis, then you have nothing to punish bad behavior with.


----------



## shesulsa (Dec 16, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> if they riot,i dont know, SHOOT THEM maybe?



This statement reads you as being quite cavalier with other people's lives.  I question anyone's judgment who values life so little.  It's one thing to be intolerant of crime; it's another to play God with a gun on a canned shoot.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 16, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> They do that.  It still doesn't stop guards from getting hurt or killed.



Also, not every prisoner who _is _in a riot _wants _to be rioting...riots happen. They _erupt_.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Exactly my point.  If inmates are already functionally "in the hole" on a permanent basis, then you have nothing to punish bad behavior with.



sure you do, it's called a night stick


----------



## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> This statement reads you as being quite cavalier with other people's lives.  I question anyone's judgment who values life so little.  It's one thing to be intolerant of crime; it's another to play God with a gun on a canned shoot.



yep, you got me, i am quite cold hearted when it comes to the lives of POS dirtbag criminals.

pardon me, i have to go feel guilty...............

nothing but love for ya, but i will NEVER be overly concerned with the well being of criminals.


----------



## shesulsa (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> yep, you got me, i am quite cold hearted when it comes to the lives of POS dirtbag criminals.
> 
> pardon me, i have to go feel guilty...............
> 
> nothing but love for ya, but i will NEVER be overly concerned with the well being of criminals.



If the day ever comes that you become a dirtbag criminal, you very well might care exactly what your rights are and why someone thought it fine and dandy to double-tap you in the head for fighting for your life in a massive, all-out prison riot.

But of course, you'll never become one, right? Because all the laws that will ever be passed will be right and just, right? And there will never be a reason to stand up and revolt, right?

Right?

So you won't ever need that gun you fiercely protect your right to own, bear and carry.

And you won't ever need the right to free speech because you'll never need to say anything against the government.

And you'll never need to defend yourself up to the point of killing someone ... unless you live in a rare castle doctrine state what WON'T prosecute your *** for shooting someone in your home or on your grounds.

And you'll never need the right to a fair trial by your peers because you live ... where again?

Yeah, all necessary and defendable rights have been won and are left untouched.  We have a pristine, honest and forthright government that puts the needs of the people first.  Our constitution is defended moment-by-moment by all legislature and elected and appointed officials.  There's not a good guy in the USA that will ever be a criminal for any reason because ... there's always the assurance that everything's gonna be okay ... as long as we remain afraid enough to justify war, greedy enough to buy tons of crap we don't need and trust our politicians to do the right thing.

:lookie:

Suuuuuuuure.

Or, if Christianity is your thing there's always this: "That which you do to the least of men, so you do to the Son of God."  I rather like that one.


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## Hand Sword (Dec 17, 2008)

Hmmm...dirt bag criminals?  Yes, there are definitely some that fit that definition and do indeed deserve to be locked up for the safety of society.

However&#8230; they only make up about 5 % of the total prison population in the US. Who are the rest? Well, the vast majority are in for petty crimes, mostly drug related.

So, what happens? There are a few reasons.

First, laws were passed by a legislative branch that wanted to secure votes from a worried public and be &#8220;tough on crime.&#8221; (It&#8217;s still being used as a term) These laws took away discretion from judges and gave mandatory sentences. So, those who did something petty are now in for longer durations than was used to be. 

Second, those criminals came from certain areas where they were easily caught due to trafficking on street corners, as opposed to inside houses (Where the majority of use and selling in huge quantities actually goes on). This made the prison population boom, and made politicians keep their promise, and could show the numbers.

Third, more and more prisoners are showing signs of mental problems. They used to be apart of those types of facilities, but those closed down and put them out in the streets. They commit petty crime, get caught, and sentenced. The drugs wear off and their real mentality is exposed. They are defiant and violent, etc&#8230; and get upgraded to max prisons with the rest of these people.

Now picture you are just a petty offender and in with the hard crocks and violent crazies. You have a very long sentence (longer than usual) and have to survive. What actions do you need to take? What personality do you develop? Plus, solitary confinement (the results) does even more wonder to your psyche. You have no family ties as the prison is in a rural area or way upstate as well, to keep you grounded somewhat.

Oh yeah, now to the booming prison industry. States borrow money to pay for the building of these institutions. Through the years and with the boom in population, the costs are approaching a million dollars for every one added now. Where do they get the money, being financially strapped? They borrow it. How do they pay it back? They have to slash budgets for the public, like social services etc&#8230; Who get hit the hardest? Upper class? Middle class? A little, but their wealth allows it to be absorbed. How about the lowest of the socioeconomic ladder? They take it between the eyes! They can least afford it too, as the economics of their area is already in the toilet.

Remember those more alienated prisoners due to the situational factors? They get released, an overwhelming majority, back to those areas! Now, there is less help for all, more alienated mentalities, and less hope. What does it equal? RECIDIVISM!!!!

In turn, the community screams for more police and police action, more of that means more arrests, more arrests= more convictions, more convictions of repeat offenders longer terms, longer terms= more of a population= more prisons needed or quicker releases of lower threats.

See the cycle?

Over crowding? Yes, 3 in 1 man cells, more coming in and staying longer, more costs needed etc. etc. etc&#8230;.
Prisons are apart of the correctional system. So do we keep the same course and punish, where the funding is going to sink us all? Or do we "correct" behaviors and reduce recidivism and costs, plus make the eventual releases productive as opposed to more of the problem, just worse now?


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## MJS (Dec 17, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> From the accounts of corrections officers I have seen, they prefer that the inmates have some amenities. It makes the inmates feel like they have something, and cuts down on bad behavior. Plus it gives you something to take away for that bad behavior.


 
I agree with you, however, when I was a CO, I had a guy who was looking at life in prison for murder, tell me that taking something away from him really didn't matter.  If he did something wrong, ie: violated the unit rules, assaulted an inmate or CO, etc., and something was taken away, such as visits for a week, phone calls, access to the prison store, etc., it didn't matter, because he was looking at life behind bars.  So what, big deal, they take away my phone calls...I'm not going anywhere.  

Mind you, this guy never gave me any headaches.  In fact, there were a few times, while dealing with others in the block, that he actually came to my defense, if you want to call it that, and told the other guy to bascially shut the hell up and cut the ****.  



> The 23/24 method is basically the SuperMax, which would be fantastically expensive to apply for all inmates. Not to mention unnecessary and inhumane. It's essentially an entire term of solitary confinement.


 
True, but I don't think that 4hrs of rec time is necessary either.  After all you're in jail, not in your own house.  On the other hand, last night I was chatting with a co-worker about that guy in AZ, Sheriff Joe.  Hmm...maybe his methods should be put into play everywhere.  If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  And if we want to talk expenses, perhaps all of the programs they offer should be looked at as well.  Like I said, I have to wonder how many actually use the programs for something other than a freebie to leave the block.


----------



## MJS (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> sure you do, it's called a night stick


 
I can't speak for every prison/jail in the world, but I can for the ones in CT.  I had no tools available to me, other than the 'self defense' if thats what you want to call it, that was taught in the academy.  I thank God that I had training other than what they taught. 

The Supervisors  had OC and cuffs.  So, in the block, where the odds are 51/1 and the dorms, 100+/2..well, if the poop hits the fan, you better start swinging or try to get the hell out of dodge.


----------



## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

again witht he claim that "(insert really high number) of inmates are there for non violent petty offenses like drugs"

I dont buy it

anyone got any HARD numbers?

Not to mention that drugs are serious business. They destroy lives, and COST lives. A sizable chunk of murders, are drug related. A bigger chunk of robberies are because of drugs. There is nuthing "minor" about drugs

And Shesulsa.
I dont do drugs, i dont drink, i dont rape women, I dont kill people, i dont rob people, and I dont steal. so I will never GO to prison. Lets just say, for the sake of argument, that I go out today and hit a patch of ice, and have a car wreck where someone is killed. Accident. Manslaughter, which I wouldnt even be charged with, but if i was, thats what it would be.

As a first time offender, I would most likely get a suspended sentence. Thats what happened to Laura Bush, and she wasnt rich, she was a librarian with a clean record who had an accident.

As has been pointed out, we bend over backwards to NOT send people to prison. If they actually go to jail, it is most likely because they have long criminal records that mandate prison time. After 2,3,4,5, or more convictions, thier *** belongs in prison.

this garbage about how little Teddy got sent to the big house for having a little baby bag of pot that was just for his own use is just that

garbage

as for the COST of prison, well gee, the prisons in texas used to be ALL prison farms, and they ALL made a profit.

It was hard work, the inmates were too tired to act up. And the farms fed the inmates, and sold the surplus for a profit. Till touchy feely liberals sued and found a judge that said it wasnt NICE to make the poor rapist work all day in the sun.............

pfffft


----------



## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

MJS
you were a CO, would you say that the statement "the vast majority of prisoners are there for non violent petty offenses like drugs" is true or as I suspect is it crap?


----------



## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

Not to mention when some dirtbag gets out, and thinks "hell I did years, it wasnt that bad, What does it equal? RECIDIVISM!!!!

make prison a BAD place again and that problem will go away


----------



## Drac (Dec 17, 2008)

MJS said:


> I can't speak for every prison/jail in the world, but I can for the ones in CT. I had no tools available to me, other than the 'self defense' if thats what you want to call it, that was taught in the academy. I thank God that I had training other than what they taught.
> 
> The Supervisors had OC and cuffs. So, in the block, where the odds are 51/1 and the dorms, 100+/2..well, if the poop hits the fan, you better start swinging or try to get the hell out of dodge.


 
It was for that reason alone I turned down a chance to be a CO in sunny Fla...


----------



## Hand Sword (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Not to mention when some dirtbag gets out, and thinks "hell I did years, it wasnt that bad, What does it equal? RECIDIVISM!!!!
> 
> make prison a BAD place again and that problem will go away



If prison is such a fun place, feel free to work there or join the group.

No prisoner, after many years in will say it was easy.

More torture, more long sentences, Super max prisons like Pelican Bay, still have had no dent sir! The violence continues. 

Again, the majority will be re-released sometime. Think about it. Do you want productive members or more violent ones from years of alienation and abuse?

What does that mean to those who have to work and control them? Police them? Live among them?

We've tried the punishment theme and agenda for decades now. So much of an increase, you can't build prisons fast enough! Building another and another is like getting another bucket to fill with the leaking water that is now gushing! Plug the hole!


----------



## MJS (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> again witht he claim that "(insert really high number) of inmates are there for non violent petty offenses like drugs"
> 
> I dont buy it
> 
> ...


 
Not quite sure who you're addressing the above to.  I know that I mentioned some numbers in my post.  Just for clarification, the numbers were the inmate to CO ratio.  Where I worked, there were 3 corridors in the block, each of which contained 17 inmates.  The dorms housed over 100 inmates and 2 COs.  



Twin Fist said:


> MJS
> you were a CO, would you say that the statement "the vast majority of prisoners are there for non violent petty offenses like drugs" is true or as I suspect is it crap?


 
The majority of people in there for drugs that I knew of, were ones that dealt with them on a larger scale.  Were there guys in there for small drug offenses?  Sure.  Did the small timers out number the big timers?  IMO no.  Some stats that I found for July 2008 listed sale of hallucinogen/narcotic substance as 1,823 and possession of narcotics as 1,024.  The stats are not broken down into large/small scale.  The main reason I say no, in addition to what I already said, was because many of the rap sheets that I've seen, the small narc. charges were dropped.  

I hope that answers your question.


----------



## ginshun (Dec 17, 2008)

I don't know what the solution is, but there has to be one.  We gotta be doing something different than other places, seeing as how we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than anyplace else on earth.  Are we just worse people or is there something different about our system?

I say make capitol punishment easier.  Any degree murder, attempted murder, rape or child molestation...all mandatory death sentence - no decisions for the judge and jury to make but guilty or not guilty. You get one appeal after that you get one week to say goodbye and you get to choose the method of your death, end of story.

Drugs?  Treat all of them the same way alcohol is treated right now. Legal but with the same restrictions - no under 18 using, no driving, ect. If its not profitable for people to sell drugs, then they won't.  And they also won't be shooting, stabbing and robbing each other or other people over them.  Sure things may be touch and go for a couple years, but the real druggies would weed themselves out soon enough.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> I dont do drugs, i dont drink, i dont rape women, I dont kill people, i dont rob people, and I dont steal. so I will never GO to prison.



********.  All you have to be is in the wrong place at the wrong time.  These guys were all completely innocent, and they were all convicted and spent many years in jail before being exonerated by a non-profit group that had actual resources to run DNA tests and such that the defendants couldn't afford, and that the state is under no obligation to perform.  You are naive and ignorant, either through preference or accident.  Thankfully our founders understood these issues, and had seen the result of attitudes such as yours in the English justice system.  They put protections in place to try and keep the same things from happening here.  You give all that up, you embrace ignorance and brutality as a means of justice, you become no better than that which you fight and become no better than what we rebelled against.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> MJS
> you were a CO, would you say that the statement "the vast majority of prisoners are there for non violent petty offenses like drugs" is true or as I suspect is it crap?



According to the DOJ, it's about half and half for violent vs. non-violent (property, drug, public order) offenses in all state prisons.  I couldn't find the numbers for the federal system.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

Hand Sword said:


> We've tried the punishment theme and agenda for decades now. So much of an increase, you can't build prisons fast enough! Building another and another is like getting another bucket to fill with the leaking water that is now gushing! Plug the hole!




WRONG ANSWER, thanks for playing

prisons have not been places of PUNISHMENT in DECADES

now they are secondary schools, and guess what? people are not afraid to go back

Let's look at the 50's and 60's back when prison SUCKED, and look how many people went BACk to prison...

you are simply ill informed


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## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> ********



you are right, that site IS *********

it doesnt go into thier past records, it doesnt go into WHY these guys were easy to buy as the bad guys.


----------



## Empty Hands (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> prisons have not been places of PUNISHMENT in DECADES
> 
> now they are secondary schools, and guess what? people are not afraid to go back



Surely you wouldn't mind spending some time in them, then?


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## Empty Hands (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> you are right, that site IS *********



So those men weren't exonerated?  Certainly you should bring this to the attention of the relevant media so we can correct this fraud immediately.  I trust you have the evidence on hand?  We must act quickly!



Twin Fist said:


> it doesnt go into thier past records, it doesnt go into WHY these guys were easy to buy as the bad guys.



It doesn't matter how they looked, they were completely innocent.  No matter how much you put your fingers in your ears, you are in danger of going to jail.  We all are.  Although unlikely, a bad set of circumstances can land us there.  All you have to do is be unlucky.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

no, you pretty much have to be a criminal

I dont do crimes, i dont associate with criminals, and i am never alone if i can help it. even when i am alone, my cell phone tracks where I am.

I dont touch women whose age i dont know.

yes, there is a CHANCE, but that chance, in and of itself is so small that i dont sweat it.sort of like getting bit by a shark in Illinoise. It CAN happen.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

of course i could just be nuts.

No seriously, i have been told i have an irrational hatred of criminals


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## arnisador (Dec 17, 2008)

A fear of criminals might well be justified..._hatred _is the problem.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

it is too easy to follow the rules, i cant STAND people that think they dont have to follow the rules!

I mean, some guy stealing a can of spam to feed his kids? no problem

some scum bag 14 yr old selling crack? kill him, kill him TWICE


----------



## kenpofighter (Dec 17, 2008)

If our prisons are so bad; then why are there illegals who want to live in our jails and prisons? Our prisons and jail should be so awful that no human being would want to be there. Now I don't mean let the prisoner rot and died in there. They should be worked and feed what they work for. Why, may I ask, do we have such a thing as a prison cook? Why do prisoner get their food cooked for them? Even I have to cook my own food.


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## arnisador (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> some scum bag 14 yr old selling crack? kill him, kill him TWICE



That's uncivilized. There are countries on this planet where that might be essentially how the justice system works. I don't want to live in them.


----------



## Hand Sword (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> WRONG ANSWER, thanks for playing
> 
> prisons have not been places of PUNISHMENT in DECADES
> 
> ...


 

Wrong answer for you actually The punishment theme came about in the late 70's and into the 80's, more with the "war on drugs."  Before that was the rehab phase. (When your liberals eased things according to you) Before that, the supreme court recognized prisoner rights, then didn't get involved etc...

As for prison sucking, your right. It always has! Even you admit how many still went back. The population has gone up and skyrocketed upon policy changes. Violent crime rates have actually dropped over all. Certain crimes have dropped like burglary-more popular in the 50's and 60's because drug trade was more lucrative and easier. Then came mandatory sentences to be "tough on crime" where crack is 10-15 yeras but the powder form (Heavy in the affluent, white majority sub-urbs) gets about 5. Why? What's the difference? Coke is coke-right? Politics my friend.


As for not being informed..Well, I've been dealing with criminal justice for almost 3 years now, and will be in my master's shortly.  I've been hit with the history, issues, policies, etc... repeatedly. Maybe you should go take some time to get educated and better informed.


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## Hand Sword (Dec 17, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> it is too easy to follow the rules, i cant STAND people that think they dont have to follow the rules!
> 
> I mean, some guy stealing a can of spam to feed his kids? no problem
> 
> some scum bag 14 yr old selling crack? kill him, kill him TWICE


 
This shows serious ignorance. There's no reason to further carry on a discussion with you.


----------



## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

i didnt say i was rational about it did i?

It might have to do with the fact that I have had 3 close relatives go to prison since 1980.

1 for murder, 2 for drug related crimes.

the murderer? she had a tv in her cell, a nice comforter, a sewing machine, pictures on the walls, she never ONCE complained about prison being a bad place. And she killed someone in cold blood, did less than 10 years.

My aunt went away for running a meth lab. She still never complains about prison, other than having to get up earlier than she would like. And she literally KILLED people with the drugs she made. And she doesnt even regret going to prison, she actually jokes about going back, when she gets tired of working for a living...... 

Regardless of what some bleeding hearts think, the people IN prison? they dont think it is that bad...



arnisador said:


> That's uncivilized. There are countries on this planet where that might be essentially how the justice system works. I don't want to live in them.


----------



## Twin Fist (Dec 17, 2008)

you got it backwards hand sword, prison was about PUNISHMENT till the 70's, then it became "rehabilitation"

which doesnt work.

you are totally wrong, at least about america anyway.

if you feel the need to be insulting, go right on ahead, i am not gonna play that game with you. Disagree all you want, but DONT make it personal.


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## Hand Sword (Dec 17, 2008)

This is the last response to you Twin Fist.

First, No where was I personal against you. If I was, You would know it, and it would be obvious! 

Second, you are very misinformed with regard to our policy in the correctional system. Rehab, when it is the goal has indeed shown to lower recidivism. Also, It is NOT our current policy. If it was, mandatory, longer sentences, wouldn't be in play still. Judges would have more discretion, More social programs would be available to rehab people etc... These are not apart of the system currently, at least in a significant way.

What is apart of it is this-- More prisons! Build as fast as you can, and throw them in and keep them in (This again, is NOT rehab policy). Yet, there is still overcrowding and they can't be built fast enough. 

Remember, we are at a point now where there's plenty of research that has built up over the years that shows what does and doesn't work.

Third, I still won't discuss anything with someone that exprsses killing children as a punishment. That shows ignorance. If that's what you consider personal- then so be it.

I'm done with this and you. You are on the ignore list. On last thing, you are obviously pashionate about this. Use that to go and really study the facts and the history of corrections.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 18, 2008)

someone want to break the truth to this guy?


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## MJS (Dec 18, 2008)

Some things I found.

One

Two

Three

Four

Five

Six

Seven


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## Twin Fist (Dec 18, 2008)

perfect examples of what sort of garbage I am talking about


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## MJS (Dec 18, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> perfect examples of what sort of garbage I am talking about


 
I figured that would support your case, and mine a bit more.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 18, 2008)

i mean think it through.

40 years ago, prison was nothing but HARD WORK, crappy food and isolation.

and not many people went back

these days?

computers, cable tv, gyms, conjugal visits, and the return rate on prisoners is higher than ever.

Hard work and crappy food: PUNISHMENT, which worked

computers and conjugal visits: rehab, which doesnt work

hand sword is while good intentioned, 180 degrees out of synch with reality

they only way to keep these people from comming BACk to prison is to make prison, as it once was, somewhere they DONT want to be.

the IDEA that "if we show them that they have some worth as people, they wont commit crimes" is bleeding heart fantasy daydreaming at it's worst.

People dont do crime because "they have no self worth", they do crime because they are too lazy to get a damned a JOB and EARN thier way through life. It is EASIER to steal than to earn. It is easier to sell drugs than to get up and go to work.

Bring back prison industry. Farms, and such. After 10 years of working the fields in the sun, they wont want to come back. Not to mention prison farms run a PROFIT. Eliminate ANY and ALL comforts, no gyms, no libraries, no computers, no conjugal visits, nothing but stone walls and hard work.

Watch the numbers of people comming back sink.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 18, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> 40 years ago, prison was nothing but HARD WORK, crappy food and isolation.
> 
> and not many people went back



Source?


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## Twin Fist (Dec 18, 2008)

are you kidding me?

are you REALLY trying to say that you think return rates on prisoners was HIGHER in the past than it is now?


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## Empty Hands (Dec 18, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> are you kidding me?
> 
> are you REALLY trying to say that you think return rates on prisoners was HIGHER in the past than it is now?



I don't know.  Do you?  After all, in another thread, I posted hard evidence that in the glory days of the 50's when "everyone knows" how great education was, only half of adults graduated from High School.  All you are going off of here is supposition, personal bias/preference, and unfounded nostalgic thinking from a time you didn't even live through.

I also know that in times such as medieval Europe, crime was rampant even though the punishments were so severe that not even you would countenance them.  You can't say what the case was now or in the 50's without evidence.

Thinking on crime is especially prone to perception.  People think crime is worse now than in the past.  The rates are lower.  People think pedophiles and rapists are around every corner.  The crime is rare and most of the perpetrators are family members.  And so on.

You made the claim, now support it.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 18, 2008)

http://www.cor.state.pa.us/stats/lib/stats/BJS Recidivism Study.pdf

thats shows a 5% jump in returning inmates in just ten years, from 83 to 93

This is signifigant because the first study, for inmates released in 83, was conducted AFTER the touchy feely "prison is for rehab, not punishment" crap started in the 70's

I know you will find a reason to poo poo these numbers, but they do in fact support what I am saying. As prisons get more amenities, the rate of people comming BACK to prison goes up


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## Empty Hands (Dec 18, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> I know you will find a reason to poo poo these numbers, but they do in fact support what I am saying. As prisons get more amenities, the rate of people comming BACK to prison goes up



They don't, actually.  Your numbers show a total recidivism rate of 67.5% in 1994.  However, the recidivism rate since that time has gone down, and is now 60% as of 2005.  According to you, amenities have only increased in that time due to the touchy-feely liberal justice system.  So by your hypothesis recidivism should have increased - but it hasn't.

As usual, there is a simple explanation for everything - which is wrong.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 18, 2008)

cite?


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## Empty Hands (Dec 18, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> cite?



Sorry.  LINK. There are other individual state collections, but that is a three state averaged study.


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## arnisador (Dec 18, 2008)

One theory is that the less attractive a stay in prison is, the greater lengths to which criminals will go to avoid being sent there. Where now you sometimes hear "I didn't use a gun because it's a longer sentence" you might then have heard "I called the witness--I'm not going back to jail" (or had someone die resisting arrest rather than allow himself to be caught). This happened with the Three Strikes laws--people would resist harder and more violently if they were facing arrest for their third felony.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 19, 2008)

the big problem with that study EH is that it is only 3 states, Maryland, Minnesota and Ohio and those 3 states are relatively low crime.

that tends to skew the statistics.

Now, after the discussions the other night, i did call some of my older family members, and I learned some interesting things.

In the 50's PEOPLE by and large obeyed the law. Not only because it was the right thing to do, but because of a FEAR of prison.

Do people today fear prison?

Chris Rock said it best, "if you live in a old project, a NEW prison doesnt sound so bad"

That being said, i do think that everyone can agree that one of the points to prison is to keep the public safe from the scumbags for awhile.

Basic human nature being what it is, if we KNOW that prison i s a BAD place to be, people will be less likely to go back.

In terms of how to deal with over crowding, tent cities work, as does making more crimes capitol offenses that can recieve the death penalty.

Dont make fewer things into crimes, make the people AFRAID to comitt the crimes.

And i know, someone will pipe up and say "no other western country has the death penalty, it is uncivilized" blah blah blah

well, we are not the Socialist Wusstopia of Western Luxenstein, or where ever

they can do what works for them, we dont tell them what to do with thier scumbag criminals, so they can zip it about how we handle ours.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 19, 2008)

arnisador said:


> One theory is that the less attractive a stay in prison is, the greater lengths to which criminals will go to avoid being sent there. Where now you sometimes hear "I didn't use a gun because it's a longer sentence" you might then have heard "I called the witness--I'm not going back to jail" (or had someone die resisting arrest rather than allow himself to be caught). This happened with the Three Strikes laws--people would resist harder and more violently if they were facing arrest for their third felony.



I heard one of Janet Reno's aids being interviewed on CBC radio years ago. He resigned over the "three strikes" and gave two reasons:



Prisons would have more elderly inmates, requiring more expensive health care. What do you do with them? Dump 'em on the street where they can't look after themselves, or keep 'em in jail after they've long since the lost the ability or desire to re-offend.
This individual argues that many recidivists reach an age where they tire of doing time and settle into more socially productive behaviour. Longer incarceration reduces the chances of people making the choice to be productive.
Sorry, no sources to cite, but these seem like rational arguments to me. 'Lock 'em up and throw away the key' or 'Three strikes' probably sells better.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 19, 2008)

what is wrong with "you have screwed up, not once, not twice but THREE times. Ergo, you cant play anymore. Enjoy life in prison"

what is wrong with holding people responsible for what they do?

what the hell happened to this country? why do we say 'it's too hard" rather than "it's the right thing to do, no matter how hard it is" like our grandparents generation did?


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## Empty Hands (Dec 19, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> what is wrong with "you have screwed up, not once, not twice but THREE times. Ergo, you cant play anymore. Enjoy life in prison"



Because the guidelines remove all discretion.  Even many judges are against them, because the guidelines tie their hands.  They are then required to send someone to jail for many years for a crime that may not warrant it.  For instance, particularly in California where petty theft is counted, people have received sentences of 25-to-life for stealing (separate cases) golfclubs, nine videotapes, four cookies, and a slice of pepperoni pizza.  Also considering that multiple "strikes" can arise from the same case, we can easily end up with unjust results.

I don't think anyone, even you, can justify 25-to-life for stealing four cookies.  Not even most murderers serve that long.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 19, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> ...Also considering that multiple "strikes" can arise from the same case, we can easily end up with unjust results.



...and terribly expensive.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 19, 2008)

it is supposed to be three FELONIES

how does a slice of pizza become  a felony?

not to mention the FACT that we are still talking about a THIEF

how is it unjust to lock up a THIEF??


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## Empty Hands (Dec 19, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> it is supposed to be three FELONIES
> 
> how does a slice of pizza become  a felony?



In California, if the person in question has any prior convictions for theft, then even petty theft is considered a felony.



Twin Fist said:


> not to mention the FACT that we are still talking about a THIEF
> 
> how is it unjust to lock up a THIEF??



An important part of justice is punishment commensurate with the crime.  Your question is a bit like asking what is wrong with the death penalty for jaywalking.  A life sentence for petty theft is not just.


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## Big Don (Dec 20, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> In California, if the person in question has any prior convictions for theft, then even petty theft is considered a felony.
> .


Nope, sorry, try again.


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## arnisador (Dec 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> what is wrong with "you have screwed up, not once, not twice but THREE times. Ergo, you cant play anymore. Enjoy life in prison"



Nothing; it's generally fair. (I'm sure there are scorner cases.) But is it _smart_? Is it a good strategy?


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## Empty Hands (Dec 23, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Nope, sorry, try again.



Proving you wrong is barely even any fun anymore, you just make it too easy.

Here is confirmation of the nine videotapes story.  From the story: "Andrade was sentenced to life in prison. It happened because California is the only state where a misdemeanor crime can be made into a third strike. They call it a wobbler: So long as the first two crimes were clearly felonies, then a third crime  be it stealing a bike or a pizza, as happened to others, or videos, can send a person to prison for 25 years to life."


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## arnisador (Dec 23, 2008)

I remember the stealing a bike vase--it was big news when that was someone's third strike.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 23, 2008)

so maybe, and call me crazy here, but just maybe, since they know they already have 2 strikes agaisnt them they could, i dont know, STOP BREAKING THE DAMNED LAW and live right??

or is that asking too much?


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> so maybe, and call me crazy here, but just maybe, since they know they already have 2 strikes agaisnt them they could, i dont know, STOP BREAKING THE DAMNED LAW and live right??
> 
> or is that asking too much?


 
Ahh...yes, I agree and in the perfect world, that may happen.  I remember another story of a guy who was locked up for some minor offense.  We were chatting and he mentioned that he was getting out soon.  A few weeks went by and I was conducting my 1/2 check, looked into one of the cells and who do I see?  The same damn kid.  Yes, he screwed up again, and back to the slammer he goes.  

Hmm...what was that about rehab again? LMFAO!


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