# Taiwanese Wing Chun



## zuti car (Jul 15, 2014)

I have started similar thread on other place but I think it may be interesting to people here . Anyway, more then a  year ago , friend of mine knowing that I practice Wing Chun , asked me have I ever heard about "Taiwanese" Wing Chun . I said yes , Lo Man Kam's system is often called "Taiwanese" . The friend of mine said that he does not know who Lo Man Kam is ,but his neighbor is practicing "Taiwanese" Wing Chun and he is willing to introduce me with him if I want . I had no interest at the time because I thought it is just one of the many schools opened after the "Yip Man" movies and i soon forget about the whole thing . Couple of weeks later friend told me that he spoke with his neighbor and he would like to meet me. I said ok and next Saturday I went to visit Taiwanese wing chun club . Like I said, I was expecting Yip Mans style but I was wrong . Taiwanese style is really unique and very different from anything I have ever seen before . There are 12 empty hand forms in the style but non of them even remotely look like classical wing chun forms . There is no butterfly knives in the system , instead of that they are using two short steel bars . Besides that there is a wide variety of classical Chinese weapons . There is no Chi Sao of any kind . Body structure superficially looks like White Crane structure , but it is different . There are short bridge and long bridge techniques . Fighting strategies and footwork are almost identical to classical Wing Chun . About history , they trace their origin to Ng Mui , but they claim that style arrived on Taiwan with Koshingas war against Portuguese 1660- 1662 . Since that time , style was preserved among anti Ching secret societies . Style is definitely southern , but I would never called it Wing Chun if I didnt know its name .They are closed group , as I understood , you can join the club only  with an invitation. They also preserve some documents that can support their claims about history .Also a lot of training is concentrated on fights , every Saturday night is "fight night" , of course they are using protective gear , but thy are fighting seriously .


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## geezer (Jul 15, 2014)

_Zuti_, considering the age (supposedly dating back to the mid 1600s), is it possible that this Taiwanese Wing Chun/yongchun is not directly connected to the later WC from Fo'shan in Guangdong but more likely an offshoot of Fujianese Yongchun bai he quan? I've heard that there are a lot of Crane boxers in Taiwan. Since many feel that Yohgchun bai he is one of the ancestors of the WC brought out of Fo'shan to Hong Kong and passed onto the rest of the world, this Taiwanese art would be sort of a distant "great uncle". Perhaps it has also borrowed the dummy and some other "trappings" from modern WC lineages. Dummies are very popular these days. What do you think?


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## zuti car (Jul 15, 2014)

geezer said:


> _Zuti_, considering the age (supposedly dating back to the mid 1600s), is it possible that this Taiwanese Wing Chun/yongchun is not directly connected to the later WC from Fo'shan in Guangdong but more likely an offshoot of Fujianese Yongchun bai he quan? I've heard that there are a lot of Crane boxers in Taiwan. Since many feel that Yohgchun bai he is one of the ancestors of the WC brought out of Fo'shan to Hong Kong and passed onto the rest of the world, this Taiwanese art would be sort of a distant "great uncle". Perhaps it has also borrowed the dummy and some other "trappings" from modern WC lineages. Dummies are very popular these days. What do you think?


To be honest , I don't know what to think . I do not believe in Ng Mui , five ancestors , southern shaolin, that story was probably made up here in Tainan somewhere in the mid 19 century or later , the headquarter , an old temple of "heaven&earth" society is still here and according to some local sources that story was made up on that exact place  . I also do not believe that style is 400 years old , no matter is it wing chun or white crane , neither existed in 1600's . About the style , what i could see, footwork, strategies , basic principles are Wing Chun, although body structure is different and there a lot of other stuff . About the dummy form, it looks "old' , to me anyway , but it could be borrowed from somewhere . I don't have definitive opinion because i don't have enough information , I just find it interesting .


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## dlcox (Jul 17, 2014)

zuti car said:


> I have started similar thread on other place but I think it may be interesting to people here . Anyway, more then a year ago , friend of mine knowing that I practice Wing Chun , asked me have I ever heard about "Taiwanese" Wing Chun . I said yes , Lo Man Kam's system is often called "Taiwanese" . The friend of mine said that he does not know who Lo Man Kam is ,but his neighbor is practicing "Taiwanese" Wing Chun and he is willing to introduce me with him if I want . I had no interest at the time because I thought it is just one of the many schools opened after the "Yip Man" movies and i soon forget about the whole thing . Couple of weeks later friend told me that he spoke with his neighbor and he would like to meet me. I said ok and next Saturday I went to visit &#8220;Taiwanese&#8221; wing chun club . Like I said, I was expecting Yip Man&#8217;s style but I was wrong . Taiwanese style is really unique and very different from anything I have ever seen before . There are 12 empty hand forms in the style but non of them even remotely look like classical wing chun forms . There is no butterfly knives in the system , instead of that they are using two short steel bars . Besides that there is a wide variety of classical Chinese weapons . There is no Chi Sao of any kind . Body structure superficially looks like White Crane structure , but it is different . There are &#8220;short&#8221; bridge and &#8220;long&#8221; bridge techniques . Fighting strategies and footwork are almost identical to classical Wing Chun . About history , they trace their origin to Ng Mui , but they claim that style arrived on Taiwan with Koshinga&#8217;s war against Portuguese 1660- 1662 . Since that time , style was preserved among anti Ching secret societies . Style is definitely southern , but I would never called it Wing Chun if I didn&#8217;t know its name .They are closed group , as I understood , you can join the club only with an invitation. They also preserve some documents that can support their claims about history .Also a lot of training is concentrated on fights , every Saturday night is "fight night" , of course they are using protective gear , but thy are fighting seriously .



Hi Zuti,

Do you have any footage or a list of forms. Sounds to me like an older version of Yong Chun Bai He. It is stated in old legends that Bai Jie a student of Fang Qiniang taught a general in Koxinga's fleet that helped liberate Taiwan.


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## futsaowingchun (Jul 17, 2014)

What are the names of the forms? if they don't have  a siu lin tao then its not wing chun in a modern sense.


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## zuti car (Jul 18, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Hi Zuti,
> 
> Do you have any footage or a list of forms. Sounds to me like an older version of Yong Chun Bai He. It is stated in old legends that Bai Jie a student of Fang Qiniang taught a general in Koxinga's fleet that helped liberate Taiwan.


Unfortunately no . I went to visit them only one time . I supposed to go there again to check "fight night " but i had a car accident and we lost contact . It  does not look like white crane to me , but what it is I really cannot say


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## zuti car (Jul 18, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> What are the names of the forms? if they don't have  a siu lin tao then its not wing chun in a modern sense.


No SNT , their first form is very short and simple , resembles on short san sik forms from YKS or Gulao systems , other forms are much longer and more complicated


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## dlcox (Jul 18, 2014)

zuti car said:


> No SNT , their first form is very short and simple , resembles on short san sik forms from YKS or Gulao systems , other forms are much longer and more complicated



According to the legends of Bai He Quan, the art was originally a set of Sanshi movements and that Zheng Cishu the husband of Fang Qiniang developed the forms using his background in Huzun Quan (Reverent Tiger Boxing) as a base. Bai Jie, student of Fang Qiniang, was the one that added the concept of Cun Jin (Inch Energy) to the art. There are no further references to the general in Koxinga's fleet that he taught beyond the conflict in Taiwan. Old Yongchun Bai He has a much different energy to it than the newer Fujian crane methods. There is an emphasis on tensil strength where as the Fujian crane stresses softness and whipping. Not out of the realm of possibility that this Taiwanese Yongchun is a throw back to the pre Pan family art of Yongchun county white crane. Would be interesting to see it or at least have some more information about it's history and composition.


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## Transk53 (Jul 18, 2014)

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing OP.


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## Transk53 (Jul 18, 2014)

After a a bit of Googling, found this. May well have been seen before, but a little provocative and disrespectful. Wonder if the author was a bit inebriated here!!


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## zuti car (Jul 18, 2014)

dlcox said:


> According to the legends of Bai He Quan, the art was originally a set of Sanshi movements and that Zheng Cishu the husband of Fang Qiniang developed the forms using his background in Huzun Quan (Reverent Tiger Boxing) as a base. Bai Jie, student of Fang Qiniang, was the one that added the concept of Cun Jin (Inch Energy) to the art. There are no further references to the general in Koxinga's fleet that he taught beyond the conflict in Taiwan. Old Yongchun Bai He has a much different energy to it than the newer Fujian crane methods. There is an emphasis on tensil strength where as the Fujian crane stresses softness and whipping. Not out of the realm of possibility that this Taiwanese Yongchun is a throw back to the pre Pan family art of Yongchun county white crane. Would be interesting to see it or at least have some more information about it's history and composition.


I did ask if their art is maybe white crane but they were very clear about what it is , wing chun .They consider their style as a "male " version and later opera style as a "female' version . They had a page on facebook , I will try to find it and put their version of history here , but I have to use Google translator because I do not speak Chinese .


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## zuti car (Jul 18, 2014)

I've used google translator but it didn't help much . What I understood it seems that ancestor of today's lineage holder learned directly from Ng Mui and came to Taiwan with Koxinga . Style was secret until recently . Here is original text , so if anyone can read Chinese , please help with translation

&#26412;&#38272;&#25331;&#34899;&#26159;&#30001;&#26126;&#26411;&#28165;&#21021;&#26178;&#26399;,&#21335;&#23569;&#26519;&#27704;&#26149;&#27583;&#30340;,&#20116;&#26522;&#20185;&#24107;&#33287;&#33267;&#21892;&#20808;&#24107;&#25152;&#21109;,&#24107;&#31062;&#32722;&#24471;&#27492;&#25331;&#34899;&#24460;,&#22240;&#32780;&#36319;&#38568;&#33879;&#37165;&#25104;&#21151;&#20358;&#21040;&#20102;&#21488;&#28771;,&#22240;&#30070;&#26178;&#24107;&#31062;&#28858;&#21453;&#28165;&#24489;&#26126;&#24535;&#22763;,&#30070;&#26178;&#24180;&#20195;&#21205;&#20098;&#19981;&#23433;,&#25152;&#20197;&#25331;&#34899;&#22312;&#20659;&#25480;&#26178;&#21363;&#28858;&#38577;&#23494;,&#28961;&#27861;&#20844;&#38283;&#25480;&#25331;,&#25152;&#20197;&#26997;&#23569;&#20154;&#30693;&#36947;,&#22914;&#32147;&#26178;&#20195;&#30340;&#25913;&#35722;,&#22240;&#24597;&#25331;&#34899;&#22833;&#20659;,&#29694;&#20170;&#30001;&#26412;&#38272;&#31532;&#21313;&#19977;&#20195;&#20659;&#20154;&#26519;&#24800;&#31456;&#32317;&#25945;&#32244;,&#20570;&#28858;&#25512;&#24291;&#33287;&#30332;&#23637;,


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## dlcox (Jul 18, 2014)

zuti car said:


> I've used google translator but it didn't help much . What I understood it seems that ancestor of today's lineage holder learned directly from Ng Mui and came to Taiwan with Koxinga . Style was secret until recently . Here is original text , so if anyone can read Chinese , please help with translation
> 
> &#26412;&#38272;&#25331;&#34899;&#26159;&#30001;&#26126;&#26411;&#28165;&#21021;&#26178;&#26399;,&#21335;&#23569;&#26519;&#27704;&#26149;&#27583;&#30340;,&#20116;&#26522;&#20185;&#24107;&#33287;&#33267;&#21892;&#20808;&#24107;&#25152;&#21109;,&#24107;&#31062;&#32722;&#24471;&#27492;&#25331;&#34899;&#24460;,&#22240;&#32780;&#36319;&#38568;&#33879;&#37165;&#25104;&#21151;&#20358;&#21040;&#20102;&#21488;&#28771;,&#22240;&#30070;&#26178;&#24107;&#31062;&#28858;&#21453;&#28165;&#24489;&#26126;&#24535;&#22763;,&#30070;&#26178;&#24180;&#20195;&#21205;&#20098;&#19981;&#23433;,&#25152;&#20197;&#25331;&#34899;&#22312;&#20659;&#25480;&#26178;&#21363;&#28858;&#38577;&#23494;,&#28961;&#27861;&#20844;&#38283;&#25480;&#25331;,&#25152;&#20197;&#26997;&#23569;&#20154;&#30693;&#36947;,&#22914;&#32147;&#26178;&#20195;&#30340;&#25913;&#35722;,&#22240;&#24597;&#25331;&#34899;&#22833;&#20659;,&#29694;&#20170;&#30001;&#26412;&#38272;&#31532;&#21313;&#19977;&#20195;&#20659;&#20154;&#26519;&#24800;&#31456;&#32317;&#25945;&#32244;,&#20570;&#28858;&#25512;&#24291;&#33287;&#30332;&#23637;,



Thanks Zuti,

From what I could discern the first part states that this art comes from Henan Shaolin Yongchun Dian and was created by Wu Mei and Zhi Shan. I'll continue to work on the translation.


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## zuti car (Aug 13, 2014)

??????????? - ???

Another Taiwanese wing chun . I am putting this here because they say this is "wing chun" not white crane wing chun (yong chun) . I have read somewhere that in early 1700"s a style named Wing Chun was brought to Taiwan but beside name there is nothing in common with later art from Fosan .


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## KPM (Aug 14, 2014)

Zuti, that link doesn't seem to be working.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 14, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Thanks Zuti,
> 
> From what I could discern the first part states that this art comes from Henan Shaolin Yongchun Dian and was created by Wu Mei and Zhi Shan. I'll continue to work on the translation.



Based on the OP linked video I would not at all be surprised at a Shaolin link.


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## zuti car (Aug 14, 2014)

KPM said:


> Zuti, that link doesn't seem to be working.



Working just fine , I don't know what is the problem


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## zuti car (Aug 14, 2014)

I will try this way , if does not work you can give me your e mail and i will send it to you
[video]http://www.hengchuen.gov.tw/Kids/VideoPlayer.aspx?id=3c5ae7ef904f4feda0f469a2e0a890  37[/video]


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## Transk53 (Aug 14, 2014)

zuti car said:


> Working just fine , I don't know what is the problem



It was for me too!


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## dlcox (Aug 20, 2014)

zuti car said:


> ??????????? - ???
> 
> Another Taiwanese wing chun . I am putting this here because they say this is "wing chun" not white crane wing chun (yong chun) . I have read somewhere that in early 1700"s a style named Wing Chun was brought to Taiwan but beside name there is nothing in common with later art from Fosan .



Very interesting that this says Yongchun Quanfa and makes no reference to White Crane because this is most definately White Crane, albeit with an old style opera salutation. In some ways it resembles Chen family Yongchun, which was undoubtedly augmented with some obscure White Crane influenced Fujian method, most likely Lao Hongjia or Wuzu. It's definately newer as it utilizes a softer approach that was formulated and implemented around the time Ming He Quan was created. The earliest placement of this art would be roughly the 1820's. It's not out of the realm of possibilty that it comes from the opera and if so possibly from Li Wen Mao. This is simply speculation based on it's appearance, it would be nice to have their history etc. in order to form an educated opinion.


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