# I guess it makes somebody safer...



## Deaf Smith (Oct 2, 2009)

Soon, the British will eat dinner with just a spoons, plastic cups, and paper plates.....

http://www.loweringthebar.net/2009/09/british-government-considers-mandating-plastic-pints.html

*British Government Considers Mandating Plastic Pint Glasses*

"The BBC reported recently that the British Home Office is seeking a new design for pint glasses that it hopes may reduce the number of incidents in which people attack each other with pint glasses.  According to official statistics, 5,500 people are attacked with glasses and bottles every year in England and Wales.  (Probably more in Scotland, though maybe they just use swords.)  This public safety emergency has spurred the government into action, seeking a design that can't be used as a weapon."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8217775.stm

*Pubs warn over plastic pints plan *

*Plans to replace the traditional pint glass with one made of shatter-proof plastic will not be accepted by drinkers, the pub industry has warned.*

**

But the law is the law.. some said the above about their guns in the UK, then their knives, and well, I expect one day they ban martial arts and the same thing will be muttered on the streets!

And yes, my fellow MartialTalk residents of the UK, I know this could happen over here to *IF WE LET THEM*.

Deaf


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## Ceicei (Oct 2, 2009)

:toilclaw:  
Has personal responsibility gone down the drain?  Why not just enforce consequences of bad behavior rather than removing from everybody else the object generally used without a problem?

- Ceicei


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## Carol (Oct 3, 2009)

I'm not sure it would happen the same way over here. 

IIRC, sports stadiums made the move to serving drinks in plastic cups due to liability concerns.

I'm curious to know what our MT membership in the UK thinks.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 3, 2009)

Well, drinks have been served in plastic glasses in night-clubs for a long time now and it has often been the case that anything that comes in a bottle is decanted first.

To behonest, it's a perfectly sensible move in those contexts as glassing and bottling were all too common. Oddly enough, as a biker, the clubs I used to frequent did not do this - peculiar isn't it that what the general public would regard as a 'violent' clientelle were the more trustworthy? .

Trying to enforce the same approach in a normal public house, however, is not very sensible. What you will put up with in the crowded, noisy and often dangerous environs of a club will not be tolerated in a pub. People will either just stop going or the landlords will work a way around the law to try and keep their custom (which is falling apace at present due to several reasons not here relevant).


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## prokarateshop (Nov 3, 2009)

For all the kids out there, I guess..


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## CoryKS (Nov 3, 2009)

As long as it continues to hold a pint of beer...


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## Tez3 (Nov 3, 2009)

Personal responsibilty? You are joking! this is actually more necessary than perhaps you imagine. I've spoken before about the hundreds yes hundreds of very drunk people who are on the streets of our towns and cities on a night.
In Newcastle where my instructor does the doors there is a huge amount of violence from men and women, he had to leave training early tonight to make a statement to police about the latest.
Let me see if I can paint the picture for you, Darlington, our local town about 15 miles from here, there's at least two pubs on each main street and there's three night clubs. Remember this is a small town. the local supermarkets sell cheap beer, lager and spirits so people get tanked up before they go out. They go to the pubs first as there is two drinks for the price of one 'happy hour'. Alcopops are also knocked back, as many as ten in a couple of hours. then everyone goes to the clubs, these are crowded, everyone is drunk and or stoned. The atmosphere is heated and violent, drinks spill so fights start, drunks are thrown out by the doormen, moe fights start outside. 
Then it's kicking out time and hundreds pour out into the street, more fights of course, people lying all over the street in various states of dress, throwing up, pissing in the street and over each other, ambulance personnel trying to cope with the unconcious, police trying to stop fights.
Blood, vomit, piss and spilt alcohol are running down the gutters, there's people lying in them too. the doormen are trying to help the police who have got every body they have working, trying to get drunks into ambulances and police vans. Bottles are thrown, benches and rubbish bins ripped up and thrown anywhere. 
A couple of drunks start fighting, their girlfriends join in then friends and it's a riot, bottles smashed over heads, high heel shoes stabbing, people being kicked in the head, stamped on. the police use batons, CS to break it up and start arresting. Cells however full up so they have to go to neighbouring towns. 
And this happens two or three times every week in British towns and cities. In the cities you can multiply the numbers, Cardiff, Newcastle etc will have a thousand out on the street and you think we are crazy to want non glass containers, are you completely out of your mind? Come her and spend a few nights out and then tell us how to run things.
this isn't the worse btw only what I could find quickly. do feel free to Google more and to look up articles on it. 





 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQqE7bY4340&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQTiFnqOyGI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W2hh5g7PNQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbnHBGBBTA&feature=related





 

It's easy to sneer and to think it's weak minded people being led by a fascist government but dear gods you need to understand what it's like out there before you post these snarky little rebukes to the British, you ought instead be on your knees thanking whoever or whatever that this drinking culture hasn't made it's way to you.


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## David43515 (Nov 3, 2009)

She`s got a point. Recently a friend from London visited New York and when I asked him what stood out the most to him, he said it was the lack of huge amounts of drunks everywhere. He just assumed that was normal everywhere.

I think that what they need to legislate is bars and pubs that serve people who are already drunk. It would go alot farther to solve problems.


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## Tez3 (Nov 3, 2009)

Damn right it keeps people safe, me for a start and a hell of a lot of other people.
http://cmc.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/1/3/262

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/331/7516/527?etoc=

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-ankles-shocking-scene-UKs-streets-shame.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ht-urinating-war-memorial-mass-pub-crawl.html


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 3, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> To behonest, it's a perfectly sensible move in those contexts as glassing and bottling were all too common.





			
				Tez said:
			
		

> Personal responsibilty? You are joking! this is actually more necessary than perhaps you imagine. I've spoken before about the hundreds yes hundreds of very drunk people who are on the streets of our towns and cities on a night.



This takes me back, Tez and Suke. British style pubs became enormously popular in Toronto in the eighties -- some were quaint little replicas where folks from this side of the pond could sample a pint of Guiness or culinary wonders like the Scotch Egg or Bangers, Beans and Chips. Others were rather more authentic, such as one I worked in, where outbursts of violence did occur -- certainly not as frequently or as intense as the ones in Tez's videos.

My training as a barman came on Saturday afternoons when the Richmond United Hill Soccer and Social Club would descend up The Black Sheep pub where I worked as a waiter. The bartender would step out to watch soccer with them on a local channel while I poured Guinness for hundreds of young men and their girlfriends or wives (sometimes they'd alternate), mainly from Glasgow and Belfast.

Nice enough boys for the most part, but a few of them got quite twitchy. Something as simple as the sound of a dropped glass breaking could set them off. There were a few of these young men who had been in and out of minimum security facilities for bottling someone in a bar. Really quite sad when you think about --  men with jobs and families who would regress into adolescence over a perceived slight. This is not unlike some young people I teach who will fly into a rage because of a dis, like someone 'scuffing their kicks.'

Many of these patrons preferred the 20 oz pint glass or straight glass to a mug (or dimple). The pint glass is similar to a cocktail shaker, completely round with thinner glass, breaks easily, and cuts in multiple directions.

I was on one night when Manchester United won the FA Cup. Some Manchester boys I'd never seen before came in to gloat and tried to wind up the Glasgow boys, some of whom were spoiling for a brawl. I picked up the phone just as the glass started to fly, and, thankfully, six Toronto police cars were at my doorstep almost immediately.

I can totally get why some clubs have gone to plastic glasses. Apart from damage done when two people decide to do battle, one has to consider collateral damage done to people who were not involved. Since they started serving beer at the Toronto Blue Jays games back in the eighties, they've always used plastic cups. If you've worked a busy bar, even one where fighting is rare, you're always cleaning up glass. One place I worked at didn't serve bottled beer -- we served cans. Much tidier.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 3, 2009)

It is odd how the drinking 'culture' has changed so dramatically in such a short time. 

When I was in my teens and twenties, going out to rock clubs, the last thing you wanted was to be thought of as a lightweight i.e. that you couldn't hold your drink. So you learned your limits and stuck to them.

Now it seems that the whole point is to get drunk, have a fight, maybe spend a night in the cells, maybe get laid in the street by some equally drunk gender of your choice ... and some of my friends wonder why we don't go out any more!

It's not a modern phenomenon of course, it was like this in the C19th in industrial towns. But we're coming out of a period of relative restraint and that makes it seem all the worse in our time of 'prosperity' rather than austerity.


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## still learning (Nov 3, 2009)

Hello,  Maybe they can hand cuff everyone who drinks and when they leave safety out...uncuff them...

Cuffs would be individual points on the tables and bar areas...like rowers on the old ships chain to the oars...

Aloha,   ...one can always drink milk instead...


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## Big Don (Nov 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


>


Bathe her and bring her to me!


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## mook jong man (Nov 3, 2009)

We have the same binge drinking problem here in Australia , not quite as bad as what Tez described but its getting there.
A lot of drinking establishments here in Sydney are starting to bring in the plastic cups.

This has been brought about by some horrific glassings that seem to be becoming an all to regular occurrence every weekend
You've got blokes shoving schooner glasses into each others faces for the slightest thing , women glassing other women for talking to their boyfriend or whatever.

Just recently a bloke lost his eye from being glassed by a woman , its out of control and becoming quite crazy.
Thats just the violence in the pubs and night clubs , we aren't even out on the street yet.

That happens when they all get turfed out at closing time , spilling out onto the streets , pissed as farts all looking for a cab to get home.
Somebody pushes in at the taxi rank , words are exchanged , and next minute its on for young and old.

The cab drivers don't want to pick up the drunks because they don't want to be bashed or want to avoid cleaning spew out of their cab for the next three hours.
 So you have all these drunk people out on the street at the same time in the wee hours of the morning along with a crappy transport infrastructure to try and get them home , that is a recipe for disaster.

So yeah , I think its a friggin great idea to have plastic cups , if it helps save someone from being disfigured for life or losing an eye , bloody bring it on .


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## David43515 (Nov 4, 2009)

It`s so different from the US. Granted, we have our binge drinkers too, and not all the laws are enforced well. But here if a bar serves people who are already visibly drunk, it`s a crime. If it happens enough, the bar loses it`s liscence. 

More Americans drive than take the bus or the trains, so if you serve someone who is already drunk and he has an accident on the way home, the bar and the bartender can be held liable. So we don`t have huge crowds of drunks roaming the streets. If someone is noticably drunk the barman will just cut them off.


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## Tez3 (Nov 4, 2009)

Most are drunk before they ever get to the pubs and clubs. In what I call 'respectable' pubs with proper landlords drunks won't get served and will be shown the door but in the pubs which are usually owned by big companies rather than being family run and the clubs they really don't care, hence the happy hours and 'special offers'. 
Glassing is a huge problem often women will take a glass and shove it in someones face. Men will often break them first and use them as a knife. Broken glass all over the floor, down the toilets and in the street is a nasty problem too. They get taken out of the premises onto the street.
It is costing this country millions in policing, medical care and cleaning up every night after this. There's also numerous rape cases reported when the young 'ladies' wake up and find they've had sex with someone unknown that they don't remember agreeing too.
Don, the young lady in the photo I can tell you from experience will be smelling of vomit, pee and alcohol, is as likely to turn violent as she is to be friendly and knows more swear words than a marine. A police officer will try to help her up and she'll go for him. Trust me.
In many cities there is now a refuge for people who are so drunk they can't take care of themselves, local church volunteers look after them until they sober up enough to be able to go home, sometimes the workers wil go out and find them, at other places the police will bring them in.

The problems getting worse, hell, we are infamous for it abroad now when these go on there annual holidays. Our policing is strict but the police are becoming overwhelmed, all resources are taken up on nights with this. No one knows how to tackle the problem, it need a massive change in attitude to alcohol and that isn't going to happen easily.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 4, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> In many cities there is now a refuge for people who are so drunk they can't take care of themselves, local church volunteers look after them until they sober up enough to be able to go home, sometimes the workers wil go out and find them, at other places the police will bring them in.



This is exactly the wrong thing to do imo: Rewarding or enabling this kind of behavior. So the drunks do as they do, knowing that when they are so drunk that they have no clue who they are, where they are or what they are doing, they will be safe.

The after-care experience should be as unpleasant as possible. Maybe that will drive the point home.



Tez3 said:


> The problems getting worse, hell, we are infamous for it abroad now when these go on there annual holidays. Our policing is strict but the police are becoming overwhelmed, all resources are taken up on nights with this. No one knows how to tackle the problem, it need a massive change in attitude to alcohol and that isn't going to happen easily.



True. When Belgium and the Netherlands organized the world championship soccer a couple of years ago (or was that the Europen championship? I'm not a soccer fan) we were afraid of what the UK hooligans would do after the games.

Turns out the problems were limited. In the netherlands, most were stoned up from the legal marihuana. In Belgium, most had taken to the strong Belgian beer, and were so drunk that they were in no shape to cause problems.

As to the topic at hand: having been to the UK several times, I think plastic glasses are a great idea. They won't solve the problems, not by a long shot. But at least it will prevent many people from being glassed or injuring themselves on the shards.


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## Carol (Nov 4, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> A police officer will try to help her up and she'll go for him.



Uhhhh.....do you mean that she'll try to fight the officer?  Because that colloquialism may mean something a bit different over here.  :lol2:


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## Tez3 (Nov 4, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> This is exactly the wrong thing to do imo: Rewarding or enabling this kind of behavior. So the drunks do as they do, knowing that when they are so drunk that they have no clue who they are, where they are or what they are doing, they will be safe.
> 
> The after-care experience should be as unpleasant as possible. Maybe that will drive the point home.
> 
> ...


 

I agree with the aftercare thing but the churches want a touchy feely approach, its not an officially sanctioned thing.
Many police officers here have said they much prefer people use marijuana if they are going to use anything.
As Gordon said the glasses used here are mostly straight pint glasses, even the girls use them (my pet hate- women who drink from pint glasses)the glass is thin and very sharp. When broken the main part of the glass is long and jagged, ideal as a weapon. If smashed into the face if caused horrendous damage.


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## Stac3y (Nov 4, 2009)

Sounds like every night is Mardi Gras. Yikes. Seriously, though, the types of bars that tend to have problems with fighting, etc. here in Austin, Texas, also mostly use plastic cups or serve cans instead of bottles. I'm a wine drinker, and I hate drinking out of plastic, but it's better than stepping on a broken bottle on the floor and severing a tendon. I think dance clubs, in particular, should seriously consider plastic--in a crush of people, bottles can be dangerous even in the hands of people who are not trying to hurt anyone.


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## CoryKS (Nov 4, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> As Gordon said the glasses used here are mostly straight pint glasses, even the girls use them (*my pet hate- women who drink from pint glasses*)the glass is thin and very sharp. When broken the main part of the glass is long and jagged, ideal as a weapon. If smashed into the face if caused horrendous damage.


 

Yay, cultural exchange.  Okay, I'll bite - why do you hate women who drink from pint glasses?


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## K831 (Nov 4, 2009)

Interesting the correlation between this type of pervasive drinking culture, and large government entitlement programs like those found in the countries mentioned above. Greater amounts on the "dole" etc creating a culture of greater apathy and less self reliance = less self respect = this type of behavior. 

Perhaps an oversimplification, but I used to discuss this very thing with my Scottish friends when I lived over there. One of them in fact, wrote a paper on it while at Paisley Uni.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 4, 2009)

*K*, the amounts being spent by the people getting into such states are in general much larger than those available to those on the Dole.

When I was unemployed for a while, if I went out to the pub I could afford to maybe cuddle a pint all night.  When you're getting about a tenner a day to live on, a blow out night is not really feasible - most certainly not on a regular basis at any rate.


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Nov 4, 2009)

Yikes... don't drink in foreign countries. Gotcha.
:drinky:

Seems like everything should come in kegs only. It's something too large to be commonly available and easily carried. I maintain that anything can be a weapon in the right hands. I would hate to fight Jackie Chan when he's holding a plastic cup. :mst:

But, if they actually force everything into plastic bottles... I'm sure those could still be used as weapons one way or another depending on the thinness and durability of the plastic involved... plastic cups are _relatively_ harmless... I can still imagine one crushed into someone's face with a punch wouldn't feel nice. Especially with the way most of them bend and break or tear.

I completely agree that the recovery phase should be much less comfortable. I never have really understood heavy drinkers. Been "human crutch" drunk once before (needing a friend to help me walk :lol, that was enough. Why do it again? Sure, felt pretty good at the time... but I remember all that happened. Drinking to forget..? No... It is much better to clear a mind in training or practice than kill yourself with alcohol.

Note to self: The "drunk walk" is a hell of a workout, however, due to the level of impairment required to reach it, the penalties of alcohol on the system, and the lengthy recovery phase the next day... it is ill advised for leg training. 
Drunken master: FAIL.


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## K831 (Nov 4, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> *K*, the amounts being spent by the people getting into such states are in general much larger than those available to those on the Dole.
> 
> When I was unemployed for a while, if I went out to the pub I could afford to maybe cuddle a pint all night.  When you're getting about a tenner a day to live on, a blow out night is not really feasible - most certainly not on a regular basis at any rate.




That certainly follows logic. His notion however, wasn't regarding those specifically on the dole... but rather, a pervasive attitude that affected the general public, youth in particular, that were created and perpetuated in part by the effects such programs had on a population. 

His research was interesting, and hard to argue with the correlation...whether or not it was causal could obviously be argued. I now wish I had his info so as to get his research and post it here. Oh well.


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## Tez3 (Nov 4, 2009)

To go for someone means attack them ie the dog will go for anyone that comes near it etc.

women drinking pints is so unladylike.


There has always been a drinking culture here and the current situation of binge drinking owes more to Thatcherism and greed than the dole culture here. It's not lack of self respect its the trickle down of the yuppie culture 'work hard play hard' thing. These aren't people who've been on the dole and are miserable creatures with no self esteem, these are in your face, "its my life and I'll effing well do what I want with it, eff you". It's arrogance and selfishness not lack or respect that makes them do this.

The drinking culture in Scotland is different so any study would only pertain to there. Scotland has different problems to England.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Let me see if I can paint the picture for you, Darlington, our local town about 15 miles from here, there's at least two pubs on each main street and there's three night clubs. Remember this is a small town. the local supermarkets sell cheap beer, lager and spirits so people get tanked up before they go out. They go to the pubs first as there is two drinks for the price of one 'happy hour'. Alcopops are also knocked back, as many as ten in a couple of hours. then everyone goes to the clubs, these are crowded, everyone is drunk and or stoned. The atmosphere is heated and violent, drinks spill so fights start, drunks are thrown out by the doormen, moe fights start outside.
> Then it's kicking out time and hundreds pour out into the street, more fights of course, people lying all over the street in various states of dress, throwing up, pissing in the street and over each other, ambulance personnel trying to cope with the unconcious, police trying to stop fights.
> Blood, vomit, piss and spilt alcohol are running down the gutters, there's people lying in them too. the doormen are trying to help the police who have got every body they have working, trying to get drunks into ambulances and police vans. Bottles are thrown, benches and rubbish bins ripped up and thrown anywhere.
> A couple of drunks start fighting, their girlfriends join in then friends and it's a riot, bottles smashed over heads, high heel shoes stabbing, people being kicked in the head, stamped on. the police use batons, CS to break it up and start arresting. Cells however full up so they have to go to neighbouring towns.
> ...


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## K831 (Nov 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Let me see if I can paint the picture for you...our local town about 15 miles from here, there's at least two pubs on each main street and there's three night clubs. Remember this is a small town. the local supermarkets sell cheap beer, lager and spirits so people get tanked up before they go out. They go to the pubs first as there is two drinks for the price of one 'happy hour'. Alcopops are also knocked back, as many as ten in a couple of hours. then everyone goes to the clubs, these are crowded, everyone is drunk and or stoned. The atmosphere is heated and violent, drinks spill so fights start, drunks are thrown out by the doormen, moe fights start outside.
> Then it's kicking out time and hundreds pour out into the street, more fights of course, people lying all over the street in various states of dress, throwing up, pissing in the street and over each other, ambulance personnel trying to cope with the unconcious, police trying to stop fights.
> Blood, vomit, piss and spilt alcohol are running down the gutters, there's people lying in them too. the doormen are trying to help the police who have got every body they have working, trying to get drunks into ambulances and police vans. Bottles are thrown, benches and rubbish bins ripped up and thrown anywhere.
> A couple of drunks start fighting, their girlfriends join in then friends and it's a riot, bottles smashed over heads, high heel shoes stabbing, people being kicked in the head, stamped on. the police use batons, CS to break it up and start arresting. Cells however full up so they have to go to neighbouring towns.
> And this happens two or three times every week in British towns and cities. In the cities you can multiply the numbers, Cardiff, Newcastle etc will have a thousand out on the street



And people think scenes from a zombie movie could never happen!!


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## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2009)

K831 said:


> And people think scenes from a zombie movie could never happen!!


 
Absolutely! dodging these people on the street is almost an art form on it's own!


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## David43515 (Nov 5, 2009)

So why do people put up with it? If the bars are a public nuisance, tell your council. If enough people are complaining the owners have to shape up or shut down.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 5, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> Sounds like every night is Mardi Gras.



It also sounds like the infield at Churchill Downs during the running of the Kentucky Derby. My wife, an ex-pat American from KY, still visits Derby quite often to catch with old friends. Her descriptions of the debauchery are quite eye opening.


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## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2009)

David43515 said:


> So why do people put up with it? If the bars are a public nuisance, tell your council. If enough people are complaining the owners have to shape up or shut down.


 

It really isn't as simple as that. It's a nationwide problem and these clubs are paying council tax at business rates so no one is going to close them down, the police can complain as much as they want but it's not going to make any difference. Alcohol here carries a hefty tax which goes to the government so they aren't going to act anytime soon. TBH you can close down every club and there will still be a problem as the drinkers will still be out there drunk from buying alcohol elsewhere.
It's a whole new attitude to drink and the effects thats needed.


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## David43515 (Nov 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> It really isn't as simple as that. It's a nationwide problem and these clubs are paying council tax at business rates so no one is going to close them down, the police can complain as much as they want but it's not going to make any difference. Alcohol here carries a hefty tax which goes to the government so they aren't going to act anytime soon. TBH you can close down every club and there will still be a problem as the drinkers will still be out there drunk from buying alcohol elsewhere.
> It's a whole new attitude to drink and the effects thats needed.


 
It`s not just profitable for the govternment, it`s profitable for those who are on the retail end. But if they lose thier licesnes to sell there will be plaenty of people standing in line to replace them. However if they see that the golden goose can be taken from them just as easily they`re liable to clean up the act on thier own.

We had a much bigger public drinking problem when I was young than we do now. People`s attitudes changed when they began being held accountable for the results of thier actions.When bartenders and the owners have to pay large fines, and when customers have to spend time in jail, pay large fines, and carry a higher amount of coverage in auto insurance they begin acting responsibly because they can`t afford not to.


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 8, 2009)

Safer beer glasses..........:jaws:

Western Civilization has definitely jumped the shark.


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Safer beer glasses..........:jaws:
> 
> Western Civilization has definitely jumped the shark.


 

If you knew the extent of the problem you'd understand. It needs more than just changing drinking glasses it needs an entire attitude shift towards alcohol by millions who deem it their right to get bladdered and cause the most havoc and chaos much of it violent, they possibly can. Unless you see it I doubt you'd believe it, I wouldn't tbh.


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## Paul-M (Nov 8, 2009)

LOL, on the right of the first picture Tez posted, see the sign saying TigerTiger ? I was there last night  small world huh ?


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2009)

Paul-M said:


> LOL, on the right of the first picture Tez posted, see the sign saying TigerTiger ? I was there last night  small world huh ?


 
LOL! did you have a good time?


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## teekin (Nov 8, 2009)

Yup, happy to be Canadian. When was the last time we had a riot or even a mass misunderstanding? I think that was the Winnipeg General Strike of 1919. Tez, you are a mentally tough cookie to do that job. I would loose my heart.
lori


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