# "Tactical" rifle choice



## gozanryu (Nov 18, 2004)

If you are going to buy 1 (one) .308 rifle, what do you get?
Needs are
Decent accuracy
portability
value
reliability.

So, choices are like, but not limited to Savage Police, Springfield M1A, Howa Varmit or similar, Ruger M77 Stainless etc. Ideas appreciated, real world experience a plus.


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## ipscshooter (Nov 18, 2004)

I've got an M1A and I love it.  Never had a problem with reliability, and was making 100 yard A-Zone hits with open sites right out of the box at a IPSC 3-gun matches.  For a "tactical rifle", you might look at the carbine version of it.


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## Tgace (Nov 18, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> If you are going to buy 1 (one) .308 rifle, what do you get?
> Needs are
> Decent accuracy
> portability
> ...


 
Well...its expensive but, as Homer would say, Hmmmmmm...HK. (HK G3)


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## Rynocerous (Nov 18, 2004)

I personally like the M-4... I used this weapon(a smaller more compact version of the M-16 A2, desinged for close quarters) while I was in the US Army. I find the acuracy is fairly good considering the smaller barrel, but like the M-16 it lacked stopping power. If they could make a weapon with the size of the M-4, in a 7.62mm caliber that would be ideal in my mind.


Cheers,

Ryan


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## gozanryu (Nov 18, 2004)

Thanks guys, Had the G-3, to heavy, not legal in CA. M-4 in that new caliber is cool (.280) but a wierd round. .308 is where Im headed. That shorty M1A is kinda cool, but you can get a very posh bolt gun for the same 1800 bucks.


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## dearnis.com (Nov 18, 2004)

CMP M-1 Garand for under $500.00; rebarrel to 7.62; add spacer block.  "Tactical" fiberglass stock optional.


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## DoxN4cer (Nov 19, 2004)

5.56 is too small, just a suped-up .22.  HK is VERY expensive.  The G3 is a damn nice weapon though, and is the standard issue for the German Army.

I'm partial to 7.62 myself, and am a fan of the M14.  The Ruger Mini Thirty is a nice compromise.  It has basically the same operating system as the M14 but in a smaller, lighter package. Aftermarket accessories and ammo are also easy to come by. 

Chad's choice of the M1 Garand is a nice choice too... it's the M14's older sister so to speak and a damn fine rifle.  

Tm Kashino


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## KenpoTex (Nov 20, 2004)

If an "evil assault-rifle" is not an option, I'd probably go with the Ruger M77.  The Ruger is built on a Mauser style action (one of the best).  Ruger's firearms (with the possible exception of their DA autos) are of excellent quality and they have a great cust. service policy.

If semi's are an option I'd go with either an M1-A, a G-3 or Cetme (Spanish version of the G-3), or a FAL.


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## TonyM. (Nov 20, 2004)

I'm a big fan of the FN.


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## dearnis.com (Nov 20, 2004)

Not clear from the comments above, but does this have to be CA legal?  I'll stress the garand again; major caliber, fast follow-up shots, internal 8 round feed, no hi-cap mag issues, far more accurate than most users can exploit, and did I mention under $500 if you do it right???  

If you go with the FAL or the CETME the biggest issue seems to be the quality of the build or re-build; the less expensive examples seem to be hit or miss.

The other, very real question, is what do you want the rifle for?  Wall hanger that will be shot once in a while; moderate shooter, heavy shooter, competition gun?  defensive weapon?  will you hunt with it?  What kind of ammo budget are you looking at?


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## Escrima Demon (Nov 21, 2004)

You might want to look at a Remington model 700 varmint rifle with synthetic stock on .308 most will group under 1" at 100 yards according to my dad.

He says they are accurate and legal in all states

  Most of the army and marine precision rifles are built on this gun.


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## Vanilla Heath-Bar Crunch (Nov 21, 2004)

_I agree with the reply asking what the weapon is going to be used for._
_A good old bolt action can be "tactical" it just depends on the "tactics" are..._

_Personally I would go with the M-4._
_I am familliar with it. _
_I actually like the little round. I dont know about the lack of stopping power because in my opinion, If I am going to be zapping someone from a distance, stopping them isnt an issue. If it was within a few yards I would worry about stopping power (.12 gague, or a .45 to 10mm)_

_THough the HK suggestion was an excellent one as well._


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## gozanryu (Nov 22, 2004)

Well, I am not going .223. .308 it is. Ammo budget is not a concern. Rifle will be for accuracy work, paper punching, occasional pig hunting, long range target etc. The only M1A that makes sense is the national match, or better. The Ruger M77 and Rem 700 are good choices as well. Probably go bolt gun, Savage, Remington, or Ruger. Thanks for all opinions.


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## still learning (Nov 26, 2004)

Hello, Not a gun person. Have done target shooting in High School ROTC rifle team (four years), and former National Guard Man. Having to shoot the M16,M79 rocket luncher, and the M60 machine gun, found them easy and very accurate to use. I thought the effective killing range was important for long distance. But up close something easy to use,reload, and can go automatic too, with effective killing power at least at 300 yards or more.

    Not familar with the rifles of today and will keep in mind what most of you perfer.  Mahalo and Aloha


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## te75uo (Dec 9, 2004)

I like the Remington model 700 bolt action.


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## gozanryu (Dec 9, 2004)

UPDATE:

Found a Remington 700 PDL (Tactical) , had the barrell cut to 20" and recrowned, put a Zeiss fixed 6X on it. Thing is a drill, easy sub MOA with most ammo, relatively small and portable. Nixed the springfield shorty M1A as it has a cast reciever (my SF buddies say "no gucci")


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## gozanryu (Dec 9, 2004)

PS- i just figured out the "Reputation Points" thing. On this thread it says my reputation is "somewhat negative" on this post. Huh? Who did I piss off by asking a question?

LOL


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## Cruentus (Dec 9, 2004)

You would have to have gotten other negative reps from other places then this thread to put you in the red...

Are you sure someone dinged you for something you said here?

If you think you are being "stalked" unjustly, then contact an administrator and they can help you...

Paul


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## gozanryu (Dec 9, 2004)

nah, im not that thin skinned. Used to beef with Don Roley, thats probably it.


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## dearnis.com (Dec 26, 2004)

What, if anything, did you end up getting?

To kind of bring this thread back to life, when saying "tactical" rifle folks nominated weapons from a number of different categories. What were you envisioning?


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## Spookey (Dec 26, 2004)

Dear All,

Based on the previous posts I have a few varying comments. They are as follows:

When looking for a medium to long range rifle for hunting or sniping purposes I would highly support the Remington 700 wearing a Nikkon scope.

For what I consider a "tactical rifle" (Good moderate range accuracy coupled with rapid shooting ability and maneuverable enough for CQB with adequate stopping power), my vote goes to the HK G-3.

If you are looking for a good dependable rifle that meets the above listed standards but it in the average middle class price range...
Ruger Mini-30 (7.62x39)

To those that are simply looking for a low end, dependable, tactical plinker; I would recommend a trip to the local pawn shop for a good Chinese knockoff of either the SKS or the AK-47!

God Bless,
Spookey


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## gozanryu (Dec 27, 2004)

Chad, see above post, I got a Rem & and shortened it. Zeiss fixed 6X


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## bushi jon (Dec 27, 2004)

Armalite ar10t .308 or any other size that they have but not 223


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## dearnis.com (Dec 27, 2004)

> Chad, see above post, I got a Rem & and shortened it. Zeiss fixed 6X



Cool; I had read into your post that that was what you were looking at; didn't realize you had gotten it.  I'm sure it shoots....what does it weigh in at?


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## gozanryu (Dec 28, 2004)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Cool; I had read into your post that that was what you were looking at; didn't realize you had gotten it.  I'm sure it shoots....what does it weigh in at?



Its between 7 and 8 lbs now. (Estimate) I might lighten the stock, but most likely not. The thing is a drill, I have a load using the 165 gr. Sierra HPBT that shoots 3 through a .50 hole. As usual, the equipment is much better than my ability to utilize it.


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## dearnis.com (Dec 28, 2004)

> As usual, the equipment is much better than my ability to utilize it.



As it should be.  Related to this thread I am working up a Cooper concept scout/pseudoscout (Don't know if the final will be close enough to the ideal; it mak make it); 7.62 on an enfield action.  Accuracy was very good at 50 yards (1 hole); 100 yards hard to say; high wind was flexing  my target backer way too much to tell.  Some feeding issues to resolve, but comes in right around 37", overall weight about 7.3 lbs (with scope and extras but unloaded); 10 round mag.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 7, 2005)

For me there is but one tactical, all around Main Battle Rifle: The HK 91 A3


I have other .308s but the HK is very shagadelic 

As an alternative the original Belgian FN FALs or the Springfield Armoury copies are cool. Beware most other welded/cobbled up HKs and FALs.. do your research by visiting on line gun forums first.


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## GAB (Jan 8, 2005)

Hi all,

I feel the 308 is a very good round for the military and for the civilian population also. 

But for a tactical rifle I, again I believe you are hard pressed to beat the USA military weapons that are the 223 round that have come out in the last few years. Accuracy and weight to carry also the amount you can carry.

Numerous reasons I could go into it if asked, but at this post I will let this suffice.

Regards, Gary


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 8, 2005)

For general purpose everday use I have:


Ruger Mini 14s in stainless steel, with folding stocks and converted to M14 sights, etc.. with many quality Thermold and other 20/30/40 rd mags.

AR15s in every configuration, CAR and Ultra Match, including 9mm and 45 ACP pistol calibered CARs. Lots of versatility here, the pistol calibers are excellent for night time shooting and night vision use as the muzzle flash is less.

For my .223 weapons I exclusively use SS109/M8555 steel penetrator rounds.

I also have several tricked out Chinese AK56s semis, these bridge the gap between the .223 and the .308 nicely

The HK .308 is what I would use if I needed to defend against unknown threats, say persons in vehicles, etc.. this is a reality out at my remote forest land, off a rural hwy. I have limited this possibility by tactically installing heavy duty steel gates, making any criminal tresspass, by necessity, a pedestrian activity :supcool:


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## dmax999 (Feb 6, 2005)

The SS109, in .223, being used in an AR-15 with a 9:1 or tighter twist will be more leathal then any .308 (Except when big game hunting is concerned)  This is due to strange physics that was not intended when that round was developed.

In addition, a good AR-15 out of the box is nearly impossible to be beat for accuracy and consistancy without going to a bolt action.  Yes any rifle can be built more accurate, but then its a question of how much and how often you need to refit parts to keep accuracy.

The only real advantage of a .308 is at extreme ranges and against vehicles.  

Of course it all depends on what you really want to use it for.  Just putting holes in paper?  Get what you like, it will be better then anything someone else suggests.


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## DoxN4cer (Feb 6, 2005)

dmax999 said:
			
		

> The only real advantage of a .308 is at extreme ranges and against vehicles.



There's more to it than that.  The main advantage to the .308 is that if you hit it, it's going down.  There is a vaccuum created behind the round, due to the shape of the round and the velocity at which it travels. This vaccuum is what creates the cavernous wound cavity and gaping exit wound associated with the .308.  5.56mm/.223 (essentially a suped up .22) isn't shaped like that (the rear of the progectile is truncated) and doesn't do what the .308 does.

Tim Kashino


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## RBaddorf (Feb 6, 2005)

*FN LAR Paratrooper Model, Type 50.63*









*TECHNICAL DATA : FN LAR PARA, TYPE 50-63* CALIBER 7.62 x 51mm (.308 win) OPERATION Adjustable gas system BARREL 4-Groove, right-hand twist, 1 turn in 12 inches SIGHTS Flip up aperture rear sight, post front sight MAGAZINE CAPACITY 20 rounds OVERALL LENGTH 39 inches OVERALL LENGTH
WITH STOCK FOLDED 29 inches WEIGHT, EMPTY8.3 pounds

In the 80s I had a Springfield copy of this with a match receiver. Unfortunatly I had to have a friend sell it for me while I was in Okinawa to make a house payment in AZ one month. It was one of the best shooting rifles I have ever had, and some day I would really like to pick up another one. Can't beat it (or at least not very easily).

Take care,

Ron


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## Gray Phoenix (Feb 7, 2005)

Although I have adopted the Front Sight montra of "Any gun will do if you will do", for light quick and clean, I prefer the M4. Its light enough for marching through Gods green Earth, but retains the accuracy and power of the short range sniper. However, when the time comes to put on the black pajamas and go on a house call, HK MP5-10. Light and quiet, but oooh boy 10mm, yummy.:mp5:


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## gozanryu (Feb 7, 2005)

Respect as it applies. The .223 pales in comparison to the 308 in stopping power in ant scenario. The 223 is always a compromise. Thats why we (the US) are experimenting with .280 (7mm) bullets now, to get bullet weight. A 55 or 65 grain projectile at 2500 FPS is a joke compared to 150 grain projectile at similar speeds.


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## dmax999 (Feb 9, 2005)

The 223 is hardly a joke or a compromise.  It tends to fragment in a target long before a 308, which means "winging" a target in the leg or such will have a better chance of severing an artery.  Both rounds will likely be nearly 100% leathal in a torso shot.

Anyways, anyone using a 223 will always get more rounds on target over a specific time then with a 308, due to improved accuracy, reduced recoil, and better reliability.  All reasons the US Army switched, and competition shooters are winning with them over the 308.

308 is still great, just no longer the best there is.


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## gozanryu (Feb 10, 2005)

dmax, i was not inferring that the .223 is a "joke". All centerfire fifle cartridges are effective against human targets. There is substantial evidence that .30 caliber rifles are MUCH more effective. The specific reasoning for adaptation of the .223 cartridge is A: the foot soldier can carry more rounds for the same weight, B: a lighter round creates a lighter weapon.  There has never been an argument about the wound value. .308 is superior. I bring you back to my aforementioned fact. Special forces are currently  (SOG) evaluating the M-4 platform (M-16, AR-af etc) in the .280 caliber SPECIFICALLY because the troops in the field are dissatisfied with the "knock down" and "stopping power" of the existing 5.56 (223). The .280 cartridge is in existence, and already available. It is a 100 grain bullet. Not trying to argue, just stating the facts. Ask most guys who operate out there, they will tell you. Hell, I know guys who still wont deploy without the M-14!


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