# Video - Does Judo work for street fights?



## TMA17 (Apr 26, 2019)

Off balancing and breaking structure.


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## jobo (Apr 26, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> Off balancing and breaking structure.


yes of course it does, probably as well as anything and better than the vast majority of ma,


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## frank raud (Apr 26, 2019)

Is this seriously a question?


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 26, 2019)

frank raud said:


> Is this seriously a question?


I think it’s just a title the guy stuck on his video for some reason. The video itself doesn’t seem focused on asking that question. Rather it’s more “here’s a concept from Judo that I like to apply within my Wing Chun”.


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## wab25 (Apr 26, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Rather it’s more “here’s a concept from Judo that I like to apply within my Wing Chun”.


Is that concept (the one discussed in the video) not part of Wing Chun? I have been shown that same concept in Judo, Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, Aikido, Shotokan Karate, Shorin Ryu Karate, Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, TKD, BJJ, MMA, wrestling, Lua and Silat. (when I say "I have been shown" I mean in person and on the mat with instructors from these arts... not on youtube) It would really surprise me if it was not part of Wing Chun... but I learn new things every day. 

I was hoping he was going to show how he uses some of the more Judo specific off balancing techniques with his Wing Chun. But instead, he seemed to show the Wing Chun version of a concept that is also used in Judo. Guess I kind of just answered my own question there...


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## frank raud (Apr 26, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think it’s just a title the guy stuck on his video for some reason. The video itself doesn’t seem focused on asking that question. Rather it’s more “here’s a concept from Judo that I like to apply within my Wing Chun”.


 I agree with that, it's the title of the video. I started to watch it, but when he said  that he was basically thinking out loud, and hadn't planned the video, I stopped. Don't need to learn judo concepts from a Wing Chun guy with admitted limited exposure to judo.


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## Headhunter (Apr 26, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think it’s just a title the guy stuck on his video for some reason. The video itself doesn’t seem focused on asking that question. Rather it’s more “here’s a concept from Judo that I like to apply within my Wing Chun”.


The reason is to get views. By doing that he both attracts judo haters who want to hate on the style in the comments and it attracts the judo lovers who want to defend it in the comments


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## Deleted member 39746 (Apr 26, 2019)

One issue with Judo, throws are damn lethal and you dont want to be charged with GBH or worse Murder.   Granted im not educated enough in it to provide a full technique overview and any less dangerous take downs they might have.  Probably less of a issue for more seasoned Judoka though. (unless they forget they need to obey the law of the land and get stuck in a cell)

Easy enough to ask a boxer or kick boxer to punch/kick you as you try to grab them and adapt from that or go to a MMA class or something to adapt to getting hit, its pretty easy to try and seek out some less lethal takedowns for people who don't know break falls, same with legal advice.  

And thats the question answered with the understanding it does work in the street and works better with some easy adjustment in two paragraphs.  




Headhunter said:


> The reason is to get views. By doing that he both attracts judo haters who want to hate on the style in the comments and it attracts the judo lovers who want to defend it in the comments



Cant blame him, i think his psych videos are decent though, but im not trained to really say.  Tis the way of youtube.


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## wab25 (Apr 26, 2019)

Rat said:


> One issue with Judo, throws are damn lethal and you dont want to be charged with GBH or worse Murder.


Judo throws are effective... they can be fight enders if the other guy does not know how to take the fall... But they are not nearly as lethal as you are saying here. Below are some real world Judo throws done on the street, most in real fights. Nobody died. One guy got knocked out, but not dead. No murders. 

If you can legally punch or hit the guy, you can throw the guy.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Apr 26, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Judo throws are effective... they can be fight enders if the other guy does not know how to take the fall... But they are not nearly as lethal as you are saying here. Below are some real world Judo throws done on the street, most in real fights. Nobody died. One guy got knocked out, but not dead. No murders.
> 
> If you can legally punch or hit the guy, you can throw the guy.



Probably not, but i have a quite blunt way of doing English.   Worth noting the potential of it if you plan to use it, especially on someone who doesn't know break falls on uneven/rough ground.   In terms of lethal force though, go right ahead and do what ever.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2019)

Rat said:


> One issue with Judo, throws are damn lethal and you dont want to be charged with GBH or worse Murder.   Granted im not educated enough in it to provide a full technique overview and any less dangerous take downs they might have.  Probably less of a issue for more seasoned Judoka though. (unless they forget they need to obey the law of the land and get stuck in a cell)
> 
> Easy enough to ask a boxer or kick boxer to punch/kick you as you try to grab them and adapt from that or go to a MMA class or something to adapt to getting hit, its pretty easy to try and seek out some less lethal takedowns for people who don't know break falls, same with legal advice.
> 
> ...


There's nothing particularly "damned lethal" about most throws. There are a few worth avoiding (drop seoi nage, probably uchimata) to minimize the chance of dropping them on their head, but otherwise the risk of death is probably no different than hitting someone hard enough to knock them down.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2019)

Rat said:


> Probably not, but i have a quite blunt way of doing English.   Worth noting the potential of it if you plan to use it, especially on someone who doesn't know break falls on uneven/rough ground.   In terms of lethal force though, go right ahead and do what ever.


By "blunt", you mean "incorrect".


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## CKB (Apr 27, 2019)

Well, while it’s not exactly likely that someone will die as a result of a judo throw on the street, deaths during judo practice is not totally unheard of. And that’s on mats, with people who presumably has at least some training in ukemi. Most of what we do as martial artists has a potential for serious injury and death, circumstances allowing.  

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2010/08/26/national/108-school-judo-class-deaths-but-no-charges-only-silence/


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2019)

I have been of the belief for years that if you train Wing Chun and Judo you are a pretty well rounded martial artist.... but then I'm an old guy so take it for what it is worth


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2019)

Christian Bjørnsrud said:


> Well, while it’s not exactly likely that someone will die as a result of a judo throw on the street, deaths during judo practice is not totally unheard of. And that’s on mats, with people who presumably has at least some training in ukemi. Most of what we do as martial artists has a potential for serious injury and death, circumstances allowing.
> 
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2010/08/26/national/108-school-judo-class-deaths-but-no-charges-only-silence/


People have died doing anything with contact - and things without. There's some danger with Judo, but probably no more than playing soccer or basketball.


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## CKB (Apr 27, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> People have died doing anything with contact - and things without. There's some danger with Judo, but probably no more than playing soccer or basketball.



Actually, the statistics quoted in the article suggests otherwise, at least regarding how Judo is practiced in Japanese schools:



> “Over the 27-year period between 1983 and 2009, 108 students aged 12 to 17 died as a result of judo accidents in Japanese schools, an average of four a year,” Uchida said. “This is more than five times higher than in any other sport. About 65 percent of these fatalities came from brain injuries.


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## jobo (Apr 27, 2019)

Christian Bjørnsrud said:


> Actually, the statistics quoted in the article suggests otherwise, at least regarding how Judo is practiced in Japanese schools:


the article suggest they are deliberately beating students to death, that's not really the same thing, beating someone to death has a 100% mortality rate, in Japan,  the UK, the USA in fact any where, if judo is involved or otherwise


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 27, 2019)

Christian Bjørnsrud said:


> Actually, the statistics quoted in the article suggests otherwise, at least regarding how Judo is practiced in Japanese schools:


I remember there being a bit of a scandal about that a few years back. Judo coaches in the schools were essentially being abusive to students and negligent. Total contradiction to the spirit of Judo and the way it is normally practiced in a respectable dojo.


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## drop bear (Apr 27, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think it’s just a title the guy stuck on his video for some reason. The video itself doesn’t seem focused on asking that question. Rather it’s more “here’s a concept from Judo that I like to apply



Or "Hey here is this cool new concept it's called angles"


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2019)

Christian Bjørnsrud said:


> Actually, the statistics quoted in the article suggests otherwise, at least regarding how Judo is practiced in Japanese schools:


I've heard of deaths in Aikido from over-training ukemi, which is probably problematic in Judo as well. My point is that the throws aren't generally more dangerous to life than other combat sports (or sports in general) - which is the assertion Rat made earlier.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I remember there being a bit of a scandal about that a few years back. Judo coaches in the schools were essentially being abusive to students and negligent. Total contradiction to the spirit of Judo and the way it is normally practiced in a respectable dojo.


Some of the same happened in Aikido dojos at the time.


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## CKB (Apr 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> the article suggest they are deliberately beating students to death, that's not really the same thing, beating someone to death has a 100% mortality rate, in Japan,  the UK, the USA in fact any where, if judo is involved or otherwise



I get that, but what the article also suggests, is that the beatings are done using judo, i.e. hard and reprated throws. Which brings us back to the potential use and effectiveness of judo in non-sportive combat. I am not saying judo throws are inherently lethal, just that under the right (or wrong) circumstances, they can be.


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## CKB (Apr 28, 2019)

I’m not a judo expert in any way, just a lowly 3rd. kyu, but I have gotten concussions several times in practice (not even limited to randori) and competition, and while I’ll be the first to admit that I have never been stellar at ukemi, this also suggests a far higher risk of injury if someone with little or no training in ukemi is thrown with a combative intent.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2019)

Christian Bjørnsrud said:


> I get that, but what the article also suggests, is that the beatings are done using judo, i.e. hard and reprated throws. Which brings us back to the potential use and effectiveness of judo in non-sportive combat. I am not saying judo throws are inherently lethal, just that under the right (or wrong) circumstances, they can be.


Agreed. That's what I was getting at - if you do too much falling - especially as a "corrective measure" for someone whose falls aren't up to snuff - that's essentially a beating to the body and brain. That's been done in Aikido, and there are probably examples of bad actors in boxing and Muay Thai, too. It's not the Judo that's significantly dangerous, but that specific type of practice in pretty much anything.


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## TMA17 (Apr 28, 2019)

I was disappointed in the video too.  Breaking structure I assume is done in many arts.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 30, 2019)

wab25 said:


> If you can legally punch or hit the guy, you can throw the guy.


It should be the other way around. If you can legally throw the guy, you can punch the guy.

The striking only requires 1 point contact. The throwing requires 2 or 3 points contact. When your hand have reached to your opponent's neck, but if your leg hasn't reached to his leg, your throw still won't work.

Here is an example.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It should be the other way around. If you can legally throw the guy, you can punch the guy.
> 
> The striking only requires 1 point contact. The throwing requires 2 or 3 points contact. When your hand have reached to your opponent's neck, but if your leg hasn't reached to his leg, your throw still won't work.
> 
> Here is an example.


I think he was talking about the legalities of force. As in: If legally (under law) you are allowed to respond with a punch, you're also legally allowed to respond with a throw.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think he was talking about the legalities of force. As in: If legally (under law) you are allowed to respond with a punch, you're also legally allowed to respond with a throw.


My point is the throwing art is much more complicate than the striking art. If one can use his striking art in the street fight, it doesn't mean that he can also use his throwing art in the street fight too.

To be able to coordinate 2 points (or 3 points) contact is much harder than just to establish 1 point contact.

Also if your throw depend on your opponent's clothes, when your opponent only has T-shirt on, some of your throws that require pulling may not work well.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My point is the throwing art is much more complicate than the striking art. If one can use his striking art in the street fight, it doesn't mean that he can also use his throwing art in the street fight too.
> 
> To be able to coordinate 2 points (or 3 points) contact is much harder than just to establish 1 point contact.
> 
> Also if your throw depend on your opponent's clothes, when your opponent only has T-shirt on, some of your throws that require pulling may not work well.


I get your point, and agree. I think his point was only about legality, not availability.


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## Martial D (May 1, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> Off balancing and breaking structure.



Yes, judo provides a wonderful sd skill set, maybe even the best. Dumping someone on their head from phonebooth /breath smelling range is a damn fine way to end any altercation quickly.


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

Judo is heavy based on that gi 

You are better off with folk style wrestling and no gi BJJ


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## jobo (Jan 2, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> Judo is heavy based on that gi
> 
> You are better off with folk style wrestling and no gi BJJ


 well i can tell you from experience a lack of gi does not seem to effect the ability to dump someone on the floor very much if at all, even the cheapest of tshirts wont come off in your hands if you use it as leverage to throw someone, coats, hoodies and even knitwear work just fine, it can be a problem if they are bare chested, so don't get into fights on the beach and those tight fitting heavy nylon bouncer jackets are nearly impossible to get hold of,, so for more reasons than him and his mates beating you to a pulp, dont get into a fight with a bouncer and also buy yourself a heavy nylon bouncer jacket, if nothing else looking like a bouncer is a good look in the taxi queue


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> Judo is heavy based on that gi
> 
> You are better off with folk style wrestling and no gi BJJ


The changes to adapt To no-gi (especially to regular clothing) aren’t huge in most cases. Significant, but not huge.


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## dvcochran (Jan 2, 2020)

jobo said:


> well i can tell you from experience a lack of gi does not seem to effect the ability to dump someone on the floor very much if at all, even the cheapest of tshirts wont come off in your hands if you use it as leverage to throw someone, coats, hoodies and even knitwear work just fine, it can be a problem if they are bare chested, so don't get into fights on the beach and those tight fitting heavy nylon bouncer jackets are nearly impossible to get hold of,, so for more reasons than him and his mates beating you to a pulp, dont get into a fight with a bouncer and also buy yourself a heavy nylon bouncer jacket, if nothing else looking like a bouncer is a good look in the taxi queue


There are some things to consider before grabbing cloth. Cotton and polyester will stretch quite a lot, affecting the leverage created by the pull. It can feel like you are pulling on a rubber band. For example, a guy wearing a hoodie can be harder to handle than someone in a regular coat. 
I love watching some of Jackie Chan's scenes. He truly is a master of using environment. The ability to use a persons clothing against them is brilliant. He has some of the best 'fight' scenes ever.


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## jobo (Jan 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> There are some things to consider before grabbing cloth. Cotton and polyester will stretch quite a lot, affecting the leverage created by the pull. It can feel like you are pulling on a rubber band. For example, a guy wearing a hoodie can be harder to handle than someone in a regular coat.
> I love watching some of Jackie Chan's scenes. He truly is a master of using environment. The ability to use a persons clothing against them is brilliant. He has some of the best 'fight' scenes ever.


 you shouldn't be using brute strength, just moving them in the direction you want them to go and they really don't stretch that much, particularly cotten, put a cotton shirt in a vice and try and stretch with one hand, it if it stretch a couple of inches it make no difference to if they go over or not, soccer shirts however do have good elastic qualities, however , stretched material is potential energy, its still pulling them in the direction you want the energy hasn't been lost


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## dvcochran (Jan 2, 2020)

jobo said:


> you shouldn't be using brute strength, just moving them in the direction you want them to go and they really don't stretch that much, particularly cotten, put a cotton shirt in a vice and try and stretch with one hand, it if it stretch a couple of inches it make no difference to if they go over or not, soccer shirts however do have good elastic qualities, however , stretched material is potential energy, its still pulling them in the direction you want the energy hasn't been lost


Well, I have never put a shirt in a vice to test the stretch but have had several experiences putting hands on when I was LEO where I found this to be true. I would put it in the SA category.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 3, 2020)

I have not seen his videos before, but I liked this one, though it would be easy to poke holes in it. By his own admission, he was riffing and meandering a bit.

These concepts are integral to Wing Chun in my experience. I manage them a little bit differently, but this is an area that I think I am better at doing than teaching, so I get why his explanations may not be perfect.


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## quasar44 (Jan 3, 2020)

Judo is crazy popular in France !!!


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## JP3 (Jan 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There's nothing particularly "damned lethal" about most throws. There are a few worth avoiding (drop seoi nage, probably uchimata) to minimize the chance of dropping them on their head, but otherwise the risk of death is probably no different than hitting someone hard enough to knock them down.


There are ways to move the judo throw out of the sport sense and back into the jujutsu combat sense which can greatly increase their capacity to cause injury... shoot, simply lofting a guy and just walking out from under him and letting him find his own way to the ground can be nasty.  Geenrally though, the well-trained judoka is most likely going to react with their best throw for the instant of the attack, and that throw is most likely going to be the one he/she trained a lot, so it's reflexive... and therefore is the more gentle-hearted version, e.g. a shoulder throw which drops the opponent generally on their back.

Oh, and uchimata isn't supposed to really "loft" anyone, they are... supposed to sort of spin around the lifting leg and sort of drop behind and to the side. The big lofting throw, which one of my coaches jokingly liked to call Ouchylotta comes right up the middle, throws the dude up and over your shoulder... that thing is heinous. If you're a guy, it's highly likely that at the instant the throw is entered and initiates... your mind is no longer on your ukemi....


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## drop bear (Jan 3, 2020)

Works in politics.


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## Gaucho (Jan 5, 2020)

Judo
- mat
- holding on to throwee
= combat jujitsu (more or less), which is what most military forces train in, world-wide.  Of course you have to know what you are doing, but being thrown at speed can be devastating.  I know of a couple of deaths from that.


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## quasar44 (Jan 5, 2020)

Gaucho said:


> Judo
> - mat
> - holding on to throwee
> = combat jujitsu (more or less), which is what most military forces train in, world-wide.  Of course you have to know what you are doing, but being thrown at speed can be devastating.  I know of a couple of deaths from that.



Yes
Wrestling TD seem much safer and easier 

judo seems like a young guys art


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## Gaucho (Jan 5, 2020)

The two deaths were in civilian combat.   I know of only one death on the mats, many years ago a well-ranked black belt died in sparring, but I don't track such things.  If someone tries to throw and the other person resists, there can result throws which go badly wrong.  I don't know that there are as many or more deaths or serious injuries in judo as there are in other MA or sports, but the impact from being thrown badly might be compared to falling off a ladder from six feet, that's my estimation.  

(A karate-karate-karate friend of mine eventually took up judo, and he soon said to me "There's no bullshirt in  judo!")


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 7, 2020)

Gaucho said:


> = combat jujitsu (more or less), which is what most military forces train in, world-wide. Of course you have to know what you are doing, but being thrown at speed can be devastating. I know of a couple of deaths from that.



Semantics, but the Combbat prefix just generally means they focus more on fighting outside the sport.     Say for example, combat judo vs judo, latter is just about doing the sport of judo, former is it applied outside the sport of judo.   There isnt actually that big of a diffrence there so its probbly a bad example, pahaah.     I dont know if they do strikes or not in combat judo.   The diffrence in combat sambo and normal/sport sambo is more evident with one allowing strikes and grappling the other doesnt.     and technically allowing pretty much eveything.  

Just being semantical, sports judo works pretty well when applied outside its sport.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2020)

Rat said:


> Semantics, but the Combbat prefix just generally means they focus more on fighting outside the sport.     Say for example, combat judo vs judo, latter is just about doing the sport of judo, former is it applied outside the sport of judo.   There isnt actually that big of a diffrence there so its probbly a bad example, pahaah.     I dont know if they do strikes or not in combat judo.   The diffrence in combat sambo and normal/sport sambo is more evident with one allowing strikes and grappling the other doesnt.     and technically allowing pretty much eveything.
> 
> Just being semantical, sports judo works pretty well when applied outside its sport.


In my experience "combat" in a name can mean - as you said - a non-sport version, or it can mean other things...including basically nothing. Sometimes it's just marketing.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 8, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> In my experience "combat" in a name can mean - as you said - a non-sport version, or it can mean other things...including basically nothing. Sometimes it's just marketing.


Well i meant in times it means something.      But correct me if i am wrong there isnt much diffrent in combat judo compare to normal, they might just let you do more things in it.  it might just be more applied training ie practicing falls and rolls on concrete etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2020)

Rat said:


> Well i meant in times it means something.      But correct me if i am wrong there isnt much diffrent in combat judo compare to normal, they might just let you do more things in it.  it might just be more applied training ie practicing falls and rolls on concrete etc.


I'm not familiar with it, but I'd expect they simply look at it with a non-sport view (closer to the original design of the art) as you suggested.


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## JP3 (Jan 10, 2020)

How about Combat Salad-tossing. Yes, in THAT sense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 10, 2020)

JP3 said:


> How about Combat Salad-tossing. Yes, in THAT sense.


One way or another, that's probably going to stop the fight.


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## JP3 (Jan 11, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> One way or another, that's probably going to stop the fight.


If aggressively performed, I imagine that it would.


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