# Defensive Shotgun questions



## Stick Dummy (Jul 4, 2010)

If you are a serious firearms enthusiast you have probably selected a large bore shotgun for defense.

Did you choose a pump, auto, or double barrel and why?

How about ammuntion? Birdshot, Buckshot, or slugs?

Do you practice? 

How do you practice?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 4, 2010)

I think you're more interested in grinding an ax than having a discussion.  I could be wrong, but that's kind how it's looking from my end.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Bill You are always enlightening!

Just curious as I need to get another one for work & range duty.

Might be something new I have not heard about lurking around.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 4, 2010)

Stick Dummy said:


> Thanks Bill You are always enlightening!
> 
> Just curious as I need to get another one for work & range duty.
> 
> Might be something new I have not heard about lurking around.



Ok. JC Higgins 16 gauge bolt action, modified choke, 00 buckshot. I practice when I can. Do room clearing exercises at home non-firing. Don't shoot it much; I know its pattern pretty well.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 4, 2010)

I like a Remington 870 Express with the short barrel.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 4, 2010)

Mossberg 590A1.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 4, 2010)

870 Express loaded with 00-Buck...birdshot is for shooting small animals.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 4, 2010)

You're right but at 10 yards or less it makes a hell of a mess from what little ugliness I have seen.

OO buck is still king for out to 25 yards.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 4, 2010)

00 Buck is standard, if I for whatever unlikely reason *need* to reach out further, I can always drop in a rifled hollowpoint slug into the tube and have it be the next round shucked in.

Then, too, since my 590A1 has a bayonet lug, hearing the "rack" and then seeing that THING on the end, just showing it to someone very well could convince them to Sit Down And Be Quiet without a shot. (Between you and me, it's there more to dissuade any takeaway attempt than anything else, but yes, I have not forgotten my bayonet drills).


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 4, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> 00 Buck is standard, if I for whatever unlikely reason *need* to reach out further, I can always drop in a rifled hollowpoint slug into the tube and have it be the next round shucked in.
> 
> Then, too, since my 590A1 has a bayonet lug, hearing the "rack" and then seeing that THING on the end, just showing it to someone very well could convince them to Sit Down And Be Quiet without a shot. (Between you and me, it's there more to dissuade any takeaway attempt than anything else, but yes, I have not forgotten my bayonet drills).



Fantastic choice it would seem that we think alike on this matter!  The 590A1 is a fantastic shotgun and probably my favorite over all home protection item.


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## jks9199 (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm partial to the Remington 870 because I hate having to deal with different skills under pressure.  Since my "work" gear would be a Remington 870, loaded with 00 buck... that's what my personal choice would be.  We've customized 'em kind of heavily, with a pistol grip stock, pistol style sights, and a modified choke/short barrel, though...


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 5, 2010)

Stick Dummy said:


> If you are a serious firearms enthusiast you have probably selected a large bore shotgun for defense.
> 
> Did you choose a pump, auto, or double barrel and why?
> 
> ...


 
My preference is semi-auto with slugs. I have a Benelli M2, a Remington 1100, and a Tromix modified Saiga 12.  

I use the Remington 1100 for duty use, with a Surefire forend and single point sling and XS ghost ring sights.  Again, loaded entirely with slugs.

I also carry a Remington 870 pump as a less-lethal platform, as those rounds do not cycle semi-autos.

There's nothing wrong with pump, but it's not remotely superior to a semi-auto. The only drawback to semi-auto is that they tend to be more ammunition sensitive. But once you find ammunition that cycles well, they are extremely reliable......you just stick with that ammunition.

As for ammunition, I look at a shotgun like a large handgun......with slightly more ranger. Meaning a single, large projectile, can handle targets from muzzle to 100 yards. With shot, the maximum range is 25 yards.


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## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2010)

We rarely need to buy shotguns,they are passed down through families 
Get on the waiting list for a beautiful pair of Purdeys! 3-5 years at the moment but you could get something quintessentialy 'English' here lol.
http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/WService=wslive_pub/pubweb/publicSite.r

Have a look through the lots, some nice history (American) there as well as being useful investments lol! Look at the last lot 291, and drool as my other half does, he has a Purdey already but would really like another. I expect though when you say 'shotguns' you mean something far more prosaic and shiny.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> We rarely need to buy shotguns,they are passed down through families
> Get on the waiting list for a beautiful pair of Purdeys! 3-5 years at the moment but you could get something quintessentialy 'English' here lol.
> http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/WService=wslive_pub/pubweb/publicSite.r
> 
> Have a look through the lots, some nice history (American) there as well as being useful investments lol! Look at the last lot 291, and drool as my other half does, he has a Purdey already but would really like another. I expect though when you say 'shotguns' you mean something far more prosaic and shiny.


 
Europeans don't seem to have ever had the anti-personnel view of shotguns that Americans have.  The shotgun is the quintessential American police long gun, a concept completely foreign to European police forces.


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## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Europeans don't seem to have ever had the anti-personnel view of shotguns that Americans have. The shotgun is the quintessential American police long gun, a concept completely foreign to European police forces.


 
You're right, for us, I suppose shotguns are for shooting game not people (unless your gamekeeper happens on a poacher). It just doesn't seem right somehow using a shotgun against a person, using rifles, handguns, all modern types of weapons yes but never a shotgun. Odd, I know!
I know that in the first World War American troops used shotguns and the Germans are supposed to have filed a diplomatic protest against their use, again I assume not just because they were effective but because we use them to shoot animals and the use on humans was regarded as insulting.
I think too that we regard them as heirlooms almost artforms, most are made with superb workmanship, they will literally last for many generations. There's farmers round our way using Victorian made ones passed through from their great grandfathers.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> You're right, for us, I suppose shotguns are for shooting game not people (unless your gamekeeper happens on a poacher). It just doesn't seem right somehow using a shotgun against a person, using rifles, handguns, all modern types of weapons yes but never a shotgun. Odd, I know!
> I know that in the first World War American troops used shotguns and the Germans are supposed to have filed a diplomatic protest against their use, again I assume not just because they were effective but because we use them to shoot animals and the use on humans was regarded as insulting.
> I think too that we regard them as heirlooms almost artforms, most are made with superb workmanship, they will literally last for many generations. There's farmers round our way using Victorian made ones passed through from their great grandfathers.


 
It's odd the difference societal perception makes........the French don't find it odd seeing a British, French, German or Italian police officer standing on the corner with a sub-machine gun slung, but would find one with a shotgun distressing.  http://www.enjoyfrance.com/images/stories/france/news/police-suspects.jpg

Conversely, in many communities in the US, seeing an officer with a shotgun would not be considered odd, but one carrying a sub-machine gun would be perceived negatively.......though that has very recently changed to a wider spread acceptance of the rifle in US police circles in a response to the perception of the limitations of a shotgun in various high profile police incidents.


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## harold (Jul 5, 2010)

Remington 870 and I also have a Mossberg 500 with 18 1/2 inch barrel.I like the Mossberg because the safety is on top of the receiver and easily worked with the thumb.New students who have never fired a shotgun seem to take to this configuration much quicker and with more confidence. I prefer .00 buck and  slugs. I personally go to an outdoor range and practice at least once a year.


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## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It's odd the difference societal perception makes........the French don't find it odd seeing a British, French, German or Italian police officer standing on the corner with a sub-machine gun slung, but would find one with a shotgun distressing. http://www.enjoyfrance.com/images/stories/france/news/police-suspects.jpg
> 
> Conversely, in many communities in the US, seeing an officer with a shotgun would not be considered odd, but one carrying a sub-machine gun would be perceived negatively.......though that has very recently changed to a wider spread acceptance of the rifle in US police circles in a response to the perception of the limitations of a shotgun in various high profile police incidents.


 

TBH I'm at a loss to explain it, perhaps we see some weapons as 'military' and others not. We can own rifles here too which are also considered 'civilian' weapons rather than 'military'. Handguns tend to be 'military' ie the good old 'service revolver' or are used by 'gangsters'. All down to perceptions.
 I will say that using a shotgun on someone threatening someone in their own home would be more than acceptable even by the law here ( despite what many think). Defending yourself and yours is always acceptable despite peoples perceptions, it's more than allowable in law here. (not a cue for another argument on our law lol)


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 5, 2010)

Thanks for the replies and all have valid points especially diversified views on LE usage of a "boom stick" as they are called in my neck of the woods.

 Sgt. Mac how does the 1100 function with reduced recoil L-E loads? Or not?

Owned Benelli M-1 super 90 great handling, great ergonomics, but kicked worse than a Ithaca M-37 riot gun!

Currently looking at a 11-87P 18" tube normal stock stock config. Side saddle, XS sights.

Tac sling reccomendations?


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 8, 2010)

Stick Dummy said:


> Thanks for the replies and all have valid points especially diversified views on LE usage of a "boom stick" as they are called in my neck of the woods.
> 
> Sgt. Mac how does the 1100 function with reduced recoil L-E loads? Or not?
> 
> ...


 
I've got an Benelli M2 as well and, being inertia driven, doesn't function at all well with low recoil ammunition.......and you're right, they do kick like a mule as a result.  The Remington 1100, being gas driven, functions somewhat better, but some ammunition functions in it better than others.   The reduced recoil L-E loads should only be used in pump shotguns.  The 1100 does a much better job of giving you less of a beating than the Benelli with most loads it's been my experience.

General rule of thumb with semi-auto shotguns is you can't go wrong with the heavy loads. Light loads should be avoided for self-defense. And once you find a load that works best, stick with it, and only experiment on the range.

Go with a single point sling, quicker to throw on and off. I love XS Sights. If money isn't an issue throw on a Surefire forend light and a good side saddle and your good to go.

As a self-defense shotgun i'd go with 1100 over 11-87P........the 11-87 is more versatile with loads, as it was originally developed as an all around bird shooting shotgun, as it can take 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells, but the trade off is somewhat less consistent reliability. 

With the 1100 you're restricted to 2 3/4 inch shells, but it's a far more consistent gun, and for defensive purposes you don't need 3 inch shells imho. If you go with the 11-87P, just find the ammunition it likes best and stick with it.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 13, 2010)

Mossberg 590A1 with Knoxx Spec Ops stock with the stock set short enough for my wife to use.  We both hit the range regularly with it.  We even went so far as to map out distances in our home and setup targets like you shooting in our home.  

re ammo:  I know it's a bit of a hornets nest, but we had a thread about birdshot vs buckshot a while back where ballistic gel testing data was posted.  Birdshot didn't meet the FBI MINIMUM HANDGUN penetration standards from a distance of 3 yards, meaning that the individual pellets would have difficulty getting enough penetration to get to vital organs.  http://www.shadonet.com/?cat=35


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks for posting the link on jello shooting.

BG is used as a controllable and replicable test medium. It does not exactly duplicate tissue or give perfect results.

That being said, I have sat on a couple autopsies and personally seen what your statements claim won't happen, happen.

Dead people with BIG HOLES blown in them by bird shots and wads as secondary projectiles causing secondary wounds.

Very cool shotgun setup and practice makes perfect!!!!


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## lklawson (Jul 14, 2010)

Skpotamus said:


> re ammo:  I know it's a bit of a hornets nest, but we had a thread about birdshot vs buckshot a while back where ballistic gel testing data was posted.  Birdshot didn't meet the FBI MINIMUM HANDGUN penetration standards from a distance of 3 yards, meaning that the individual pellets would have difficulty getting enough penetration to get to vital organs.


After passing through a barrier.

The thing about the FBI standards is that they intended for the FBI and doesn't necessarily equate to valid civilian SD applications.  And I'm not the first person to say so:

http://www.thegunzone.com/miami-ammo.html

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Blindside (Jul 14, 2010)

Remington 870 Express "home defense" model with mounted light, It is loaded with 00 buck and stock side saddle shell carrier has 3 00 buck and 3 one once slugs.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 14, 2010)

:asian:  I don't wanna bring another argument to this thread that's already been gone over before.  Look at the data posted, look at the anecdotal stories and decide for yourself.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 23, 2010)

To make things even more complicated i'm not a fan of shot, in general, of any number, for a defensive shotgun.  

While certain situations may dictate shot as a choice, i.e. an apartment building with thin walls, in general, i've of the firm belief that a shotgun should be loaded with a single 1oz projectiles.  That makes the shotgun lethal and accurate from muzzle to approximately 100 yards.


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 25, 2010)

Stick Dummy said:


> If you are a serious firearms enthusiast you have probably selected a large bore shotgun for defense.
> 
> Did you choose a pump, auto, or double barrel and why?
> 
> ...


 
Actually Stick I prefer my M1 Carbine. And I use Remington 110 gr SPs.

But yes I do have 'combat' shotguns. If that was my main house gun I'd use my Mossberg 500 Mariner, 18 inch barrel, which has a tac-star side saddle (4 shot) and bantam stock. Federal true-flite 12 gauge buckshot, which is made to hold together so you have a 12 inch pattern at 25 yards!!

Practice? I've been through basic and advanced shotgun courses by SDSI near Dallas. When I do practice I use my OTHER Mossie 500, a plain blue 18 incher that looks just like the Mariner except.. Its blue!

I practice using birdshot with backstops most of the time. Practice includes pieing barricades, low light firing, and firing one or two rounds and reloading from the side saddle.

I also practice left handed by transitioning (it's a way to swap the shotgun from right to left quite quickly and very reliably.) And I also practice transitioning from shotgun to pistol using the underarm method as I do not use a sling on my shotguns.

I practice loading from belt loops for single shots using the overhand method for when I grab the cartridge with the base by my left thumb and underhand if the front of the cartridge is by my thumb.

There are other ways to practice but those I do as part of a routine when I use my shottie.

Deaf


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Jul 26, 2010)

Remington 870 Express with Vang Comp barrel, Xpress sights (which includes a short picattiny rail on the rear sight), oversized safety, stainless steel magazine follower.

I have modified the stock gun from Vang Comp to include an Mesa Tactical low tube Stock adapter with an Enidine Shot Shok recoil reducer, Magpul MOE stock, Mapgul MIAD Pistol grip, Mesa Tactical 8 shot side saddle, and Botach Picatinny rail forend.

In it I have Winchester 00 Buckshot, but am likely to replace it soon with Federal LE123 Low Recoil Flight control ammunition.  Not really necessary with the Vang Comp Barrel, but what the hell, it costs the same as other rounds.


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## Shin71 (Sep 3, 2010)

I shoot at home what I shoot at work; an 870 pump with 00 buck (actually just picked this one up).  Had I been issued something different then I probably would have ventured for something different.


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## stonewall1350 (Oct 4, 2010)

I am a big believer in shoot what you are comfortable with. The reason for this is because I am a hunter. And while I don't always do this hunting for challenge reasons, but when I am shooting for self defense or for the pot I always use my Remington 870. As a matter of fact I use the SAME 870 for hunting as a do for self defense. I leave the barrel plug in and load up 3 00 buck. I keep an XDSC 9mm loaded to 16 rounds in the night stand for a back up. But that 870 has killed MANY ducks, dove, turkey, hogs, and deer.


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## elder999 (Oct 4, 2010)

I think the British pioneered the use of shotguns for the jungle in Malaysia. Of course, the U.S. used shotguns in WWI-that's where my personal favorite comes from,the Winchester 1912.



Andy Moynihan said:


> Then, too, since my 590A1 has a bayonet lug, hearing the "rack" and then seeing that THING on the end, just showing it to someone very well could convince them to Sit Down And Be Quiet without a shot. (Between you and me, it's there more to dissuade any takeaway attempt than anything else, but yes, I have not forgotten my bayonet drills).


 
+1 for this. I had to "repel boarders"-er,  crackhead burglars twice back in New York. Both times, the *KERCHUNK* of death, and "the voice," saying-loudly but rather calmly-_Get out of my house or I will shoot you_ sent them running.


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## BloodMoney (Oct 6, 2010)

Another Mossberg 590 owner here

I generally shoot bird and trap shot, but have a few 00 shells on the mantle piece in case. Not that youd really need em, as has been said just rack the pump action and shout "Get on the ground" with tactical torch on and 90% of burglars will comply quite nicely. Theres a reason its called The Persuader. its persuasive 

I shoot as regularly as I can, which due to training isnt a hell of a lot, maybe once a month or so.


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## chinto (Feb 19, 2011)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Mossberg 590A1.




ya that would be one of my first choices!


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## Cryozombie (Feb 27, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *Skpotamus*
> 
> 
> _re ammo:  I know it's a bit of a  hornets nest, but we had a thread about birdshot vs buckshot a while  back where ballistic gel testing data was posted.  Birdshot didn't meet  the FBI MINIMUM HANDGUN penetration standards from a distance of 3  yards, meaning that the individual pellets would have difficulty getting  enough penetration to get to vital organs._





lklawson said:


> After passing through a barrier.
> 
> The thing about the FBI standards is that they intended for the FBI and doesn't necessarily equate to valid civilian SD applications.  And I'm not the first person to say so:
> 
> ...



Lemnme tell you from some experience:

12g Birdshot from about 3 feet will pass cleanly thru a single layer of drywall, the 2" of space where the stud is SOME of it will penetrate the drywall on the other side and still have enough force to shatter a lightbulb, but none of it will then penetrate the drywall on the other side of the closet you just shot into... it will simply embed shallowly into the drywall panel... 

And then you need to patch the wall.  Oopsie.


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## searcher (Feb 28, 2011)

Remmy 870 with #4 buckshot.    I like the 27 pellet load best.    I keep bird shot and turkey loads on my shellholder.   If the need arises that the shotgun does not have enough reach.   I will stop shooting with the shotgun and move to my M4.   Hopefully if they are out of range, they are running away and my house is secure.


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## Hudson69 (Mar 2, 2011)

I picked up an 870 since that is what I carried on Patrol and what I use in the military (Reserves).  

It is slightly modified; I have a three shot tube extension, ghost ring sights, side saddle for six rounds extra, a sling, screwed a short pic rail on the synthetic pump and put a surefire with clamp on that.  The last thing I did extra was put a pistol grip collapsible stock on it so is feels more like my AR-15.  I shoot it about five times a year and use 00 buck and slugs.  I shoot my duty Glock a lot, my AR as often as I can and my 12 guage enough to feel proficient (not enough).


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## chinto (Mar 17, 2011)

Andy Moynihan said:


> 00 Buck is standard, if I for whatever unlikely reason *need* to reach out further, I can always drop in a rifled hollowpoint slug into the tube and have it be the next round shucked in.
> 
> Then, too, since my 590A1 has a bayonet lug, hearing the "rack" and then seeing that THING on the end, just showing it to someone very well could convince them to Sit Down And Be Quiet without a shot. (Between you and me, it's there more to dissuade any takeaway attempt than anything else, but yes, I have not forgotten my bayonet drills).


great choice.. could not swing the extra $100 for the 590. got a 500 riot instead ... but #4 buck and heavier is used to make sure you get penetration to a lethal depth. light bird like #6 can do it sometimes at point blank... but well if its that serious do not take chances


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## chinto (Mar 17, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> Lemnme tell you from some experience:
> 
> 12g Birdshot from about 3 feet will pass cleanly thru a single layer of drywall, the 2" of space where the stud is SOME of it will penetrate the drywall on the other side and still have enough force to shatter a lightbulb, but none of it will then penetrate the drywall on the other side of the closet you just shot into... it will simply embed shallowly into the drywall panel...
> 
> And then you need to patch the wall.  Oopsie.



yes but people have been shot at close range with light bird-shot and survived and even functioned .. if its that serious you are shooting a weapon at some one.. i would suggest you make sure you get the job done!


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