# Throws - are they useful?



## mhouse (May 4, 2004)

By way of introduction, my name is Mark and I have been studying Shaolin Kempo Chi Sao for 6 years in Massachusetts. I'm new to this board and this is my first post to this forum although I have been reading it with great interest for the past month since I found it.

I just posted a thread in the Technique forum asking about throwing techniques and how to teach them.

I don't have many techniques that throw my opponent and it made me wonder.

Are throws still a useful part of kenpo/kempo? (There are a number of ways to ask this. Another way to ask it is:  Do throws still belong in the kenpo system?)

To be clear, I am talking specifically about shoulder throws and hip throws. And this is just speculation. I'm interested in hearing people's opinions.

Thank you.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 4, 2004)

mhouse said:
			
		

> By way of introduction, my name is Mark and I have been studying Shaolin Kempo Chi Sao for 6 years in Massachusetts. I'm new to this board and this is my first post to this forum although I have been reading it with great interest for the past month since I found it.
> 
> I just posted a thread in the Technique forum asking about throwing techniques and how to teach them.
> 
> ...


In my own opinion, yes. Absolutely. I worked with a kenpo & judo black belt who used to say about hip and shoulder throws, "Why throw a punch at him, when you can throw a planet at him." A kenpo black belt & paramedic I've been close to for about 16 years used to make similar jokes about "rapid deceleration syndrome injuries": It's not the throw that hurts them, but the sudden stop at the bottom of the fall, when they hit the concrete.

When I was teaching, we used to have "throw day" every couple of weeks. The activity was to take the top 10 judo throws, and practice the heck out of them in response to various attacks and assaults. Very sore, but very good practice. (i.e., Osoto from a punch, grab, knife or club attack, swarm, etc.).

Dr. Dave


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## Seig (May 4, 2004)

They are absolutely in there.  When one is first learning the curriculuum, they may not be obvious, but as you revisit the material, they become glaring.  There is an entire form dedicated to take downs.


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## Gentle Fist (May 4, 2004)

Throws are not only devastating to an attacker but require less energy on the defenders behalf.  Throws take more time to learn then say a strike, but with patience and the understanding of flow it becomes just as easy.  For those who practice blocking systems, they start off by learning a block as a block, then as a strike, then finally as a throw.  I think throws belong in every system, but thats another thread. :asian:


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## KenpoTex (May 5, 2004)

Like Mr. Parker once said, "to feel is to believe."  I wasn't to sure what I thought about hip and shoulder throws until one of the black belts used a judo-style throw on me one night.  We were in the mat-room (luckily for me) and even though he didn't go full speed and I did a textbook breakfall I still was stunned and had the wind knocked out of me.  I don't even want to think about the effects of getting thrown like this on the street (unless I'm the one doing the throwing).


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## theletch1 (May 5, 2004)

Any technique or group of techniques which have had an entire art built around them (read judo) have to have some merit. :uhyeah:   As an aikido-ka I can attest to the ability of throws to both buy some extra time, by throwing your attacker away from you or ending a confrontation by way of a dynamic throw to the ground or into a stationary object.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 5, 2004)

Couple years after I quit bouncing, a Judo black belt that I worked with, who used to train with the Olympic Team, was attacked by a road rager. Guy came at him with, unfortunately, empty hands and seized my old compadre. Judo-boy snaps into action, and bolts into a high hip throw, taking the guy up, over, and down onto his head...wear it hit the curb, killing him instantly. Since he was an upstanding citizen, he only recieved a 15 years sentence, of shich he served 8 prior to parole. Now, he gets to live daily with the stigma of having taken another life, with a SPORT art. 

Yeah. Throws work.

Dr. Dave


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## Gentle Fist (May 5, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Couple years after I quit bouncing, a Judo black belt that I worked with, who used to train with the Olympic Team, was attacked by a road rager. Guy came at him with, unfortunately, empty hands and seized my old compadre. Judo-boy snaps into action, and bolts into a high hip throw, taking the guy up, over, and down onto his head...wear it hit the curb, killing him instantly. Since he was an upstanding citizen, he only recieved a 15 years sentence, of shich he served 8 prior to parole. Now, he gets to live daily with the stigma of having taken another life, with a SPORT art.
> 
> Yeah. Throws work.
> 
> Dr. Dave


Wow that is like something straight out of a movie...Man, I feel bad for the misfortune of your friend..Like stated earlier, throws or some of the deadliest forms of defense.


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## 8253 (May 5, 2004)

any technique is useful when executed properly whether is be one to end the altercation or to set you up for another tech.


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## Brother John (May 6, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> "Why throw a punch at him, when you can throw a planet at him."



I like that quote!
But in my execution of balistic Kenpo
I throw the punch, and in letting him fall I let the planet use borrowed force.
 
Your Brother
John


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 6, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I like that quote!
> But in my execution of balistic Kenpo
> I throw the punch, and in letting him fall I let the planet use borrowed force.
> 
> ...


Nice spin!


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## satans.barber (May 6, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Couple years after I quit bouncing, a Judo black belt that I worked with, who used to train with the Olympic Team, was attacked by a road rager. Guy came at him with, unfortunately, empty hands and seized my old compadre. Judo-boy snaps into action, and bolts into a high hip throw, taking the guy up, over, and down onto his head...wear it hit the curb, killing him instantly. Since he was an upstanding citizen, he only recieved a 15 years sentence, of shich he served 8 prior to parole. Now, he gets to live daily with the stigma of having taken another life, with a SPORT art.
> 
> Yeah. Throws work.
> 
> Dr. Dave



That's a lengthy sentence even for a manslaughter charge, and an awful length of time to have to serve for what was self defence...were there any witnesses to coroborate his story or were the two of them alone when it happened?

Clearly shows that throws have their place in our arts though, though I feel sorry for the time your friend lost 

Ian.


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## Disco (May 6, 2004)

Sorry about your friend. Don't want to sidetrack this thread, but just to add an additional thought. There have been a lot of instances lately (News), that have reported similar happenings. There were 2 in Florida within the past year. Both had someone being killed from a punch. It seems that our legal system is more screwed up than most of us have thought, for both received big sentences. I think one was even charged with murder.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (May 6, 2004)

> Both had someone being killed from a punch. It seems that our legal system is more screwed up than most of us have thought, for both received big sentences. I think one was even charged with murder.



I hate to say it, but depending on the circumstances they got what they deserved.  This isn't to sound harsh, but too many times people live in the fantasy of "fighting is cool" when more times than not someone is going to get really hurt.  I enjoy kenpo because of its structure and its variety, but I also understand that if I can execute some of the techniques I know in the manner that they are intended, that someone is going to the hospital.  

When I took my CHL, we spent an entire evening going over the legal repercussions of a shooting.  If you are involved in a shooting, expect to get arrested, expect charges, and expect to have to pay a freakin assload of money.  If you are involved in a fight that is not part of your job description (bouncer, police officer, etc.) then you too should expect to be arrested.  If you aren't then congratulations you got lucky.  In most cases though, the responding police officers will at the very least detain all subjects directly involved until they get some consensus as to what occurred. 

Also, it should be noted that charges are not always filed according to what actually happened.  There have been cases where an individual was justified in their actions but due to political pressure charges get filed which tends to put an extraordinary strain on your time, relationships, and not to mention your bank account.  All because some bureaucrat wants to make examples out of people, just to show that this particular city will not tolerate such offenses.  Such situations usually involve people ending their speeches with,"... remember, we do this for our children."  I guess my point is that if you are in a fight do what you have to do, but be ready for what comes next.  

Mr. Mills always talks about winning both fights: the physical, and the legal.  You have to learn to set up your hand to hand battle as well as your legal battle and something as simple as yelling,"HEY, I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT" to draw attention to what is happening (i.e. witnesses, hopefully for you) can work in your favor.  In road rage situations there is nothing that says you have to pull over.  If someone is following you, call the police on your cell phone or drive to the nearest police station. By pulling over you have pretty much committed yourself to a confrontation which you could possibly win on the street but, as was demonstrated in the earlier story, lose in the court room.  Fighting should only be done when there is no other alternative.

Oh and just to get things back on track...... we incorporate throws into our kenpo (AKKI) and I do believe them to be extremely useful.


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## Danjo (May 8, 2004)

"depending on the circumstances they got what they deserved."

I would say that the word "deserved" my be a bit harsh, but your point is well taken. Presumably, these people were attacked, but how did they get into the situation where they were attacked? Self defense doesn't begin when the punch etc. is thrown. Losing one's temper is a form of ego trip and if a fight can be avoided by not losing one's temper, then the fight should be avoided. Generally speaking, if one is truly unprovokedly attacked by surprise, it will usually be by someone who has a history of such behavior. Once this person's history comes out, it will usually go a long way towards exhonerating the person that was forced to defend himself. The way the law usually looks at it is that if you could have avoided the fight, even by running away, and didn't, then you are a guilty party just like the other guy. Be careful out there.


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## MJS (May 30, 2007)

An old thread, but IMO, one worthy of more discussion. 

Mike


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## kempo7 (May 30, 2007)

Letting the ground beat up your opponent is a great way of winning.


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## SL4Drew (May 30, 2007)

Useful, perhaps, in the right situation. 

In a usual self-defense situation, you have been caught unaware and the attacker has closed the gap on you. If the attacker makes contact with any thing other than a strike or weapon, you usually have to execute a move (or series of moves) to effectively negate their momentum and recover. 

Not always, but often, the result is to widen the gap. So you usually have to execute an offensive maneuver or two or three to get close enough for something like a hip throw. And usually an offensive strike will cause them to change their position, e.g. bend or take a step back. Meaning the distance may have changed again. (Unless you otherwise anticipate and control for their expected movement.) So supposing you have hit him 2 or 3 times, what's the need to throw him? I mean can't you stop an attacker in 3 hits or less? 

Plus, if you desire is to throw him you need sufficient skill and you have significant variables to control for, including preventing yourself from being pulled down too. You may end up on top and the fall may hurt him more, but you have lost a significant advantage. And possibly injured yourself in the fall.

And if you saw the attack coming, why not just kick him? Why wait until contact to defend your self?


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## IWishToLearn (May 30, 2007)

"And if you saw the attack coming, why not just kick him?"

Where have I heard that before...Marie Callendar's maybe? How you been Drew?


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## SL4Drew (May 30, 2007)

Wise words spoken by a South Central Ninja. And yes, the good secrets always come out with pie. :wink2:

I look forward to seeing you and the gang again soon.


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## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2007)

mhouse said:


> By way of introduction, my name is Mark and I have been studying Shaolin Kempo Chi Sao for 6 years in Massachusetts. I'm new to this board and this is my first post to this forum although I have been reading it with great interest for the past month since I found it.
> 
> I just posted a thread in the Technique forum asking about throwing techniques and how to teach them.
> 
> ...


Of course, you can add a throw at any point during a tech.
Sean


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## MJS (May 31, 2007)

Are they useful? Absolutely!  Its another tool, and if the moment presents itself and its the right move at that time, I say go for it.  Of course, we ultimately control how they fall, and I've heard people question the aftermath of it.  In other words, what if, during the landing, they hit their head and die?  Then again, what if our punch makes them fall and they hit their head?



> And if you saw the attack coming, why not just kick him? Why wait until contact to defend your self?


 
Ya know, thats a good point and something I've said as well.  An attempted grab is similar to a punch, so why wait until they grab?  But then why have techniques against a grab? 

Mike


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## stone_dragone (May 31, 2007)

I have always taught that the ground is a very powerful weapon.  the primary issue I take with saying that "I would just kick him" or " I would do X throw" is that all responses are situationally dependent.  What shoes am I wearing? How snug are my jeans? Did I have one too many rolls at dinner? Did I take one too many rolls at practice?

It goes without saying that one should have avoided the situation, but the proper physical response is dependent on so many variables that a discussion of throws vs kicks is pointless.  Should people training in self-defense arts work on throws? Yes Should they work on kicks? yes.  should they work on throwing thier keys and running like hell? yes.


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## whitedragon_48 (Jun 2, 2007)

Ok, I will answer this one. There's a lot of pointless fear out there with people being afraid of defending themselves from an attacker. Let me make one thing very clear, SD is legal. You can legally use as much force as needed to stop the attack and preserve your life and/or limb. If in the unfortunate event where the use legal of SD causes the de-animation of the attacker, well boo-freakin-hoo, too bad, so sad. What we cannot do is continue to use force once the threat has ceased. If your response to someone armed or otherwise was to use a hip throw that drops him on his head and he dies, he's SOL, me sez. Your choise of SD should not rest on what might be too dangerous to use. Too much force can be bad, but too little can kill you. Actually, studies have been done that show that while under attack is very hard to control the level of force used given the instinctive response towards survival. I seriously doubt that if you use reasonable SD in a situation and the attacker dies that you will be convicted, unless your lawyer is extremely incompetent.

When someone decides to phycally assault another, he gives up his right not to be assaulted himself in response. Any SD move can potentially kill given the circumtances so if we are to go to prison for that, why even bother to train? Ridiculous! Just make sure to use a reasonable amount of force, enough to justify dropping him on his head and once done, don't continue to kick the unconcious guy on the head! No matter how satisfiying it might be.


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