# Cult like behavior



## Pat M (Apr 30, 2016)

My time in Wing Chun has spanned 16 years and three Sifu's with the first being a student of the second. After 14 years including some time away we found ourselves no longer welcome. Being shunned by this group (but not by some members secretly) things that we had simply overlooked but known really to be wrong slowly became clear. (it amazing how you perception changes) We had been part of a cult like group where the leader manipulated his flock to act and think as he wanted, using the threat of banishment to anyone who dared to think otherwise. The classic religious maxim of there being something wrong with each and everyone of us and that through the Wing Chun under his tutelage we could be fixed. Friendships forged within the club being the property of the Sifu to be controlled and ended if one person left. Even marriage with one being destroyed in this way.

Is this common to Wing Chun or even Kung Fu?

Given after changing school and now after 18 months it has been myself not my wife who has just been excluded from somewhere that we thought was different, I am starting to question if this whole Sifu thing over time is fraught with danger given the human tendency "Everybody wants to rule the world".  Is it possible for this not to happen when one has ultimate power?

My previous experience has raised my expectations of humility, honesty, integrity and equity are high regards my Sifu, these are qualities that I hold myself to. Control of EGO is also required going hand in hand with humility.  During a challenging day involving the loss and a close friend and our family dog, I lacking any filter and discussed the perceived lack of equity in the school regards instruction. "When students attend a class and pay the fee should they not be given equal instruction" Given this discussion I was excluded from the school via email the following morning. (at no time was I not respectful or heated)

I have now learned friends I have made at the school have been warned not to train with me outside the school as this would cause their exclusion. Everyone signs off on their membership that they will not teach or train martial arts out side the school so this rule can be applied how, why and when ever the Sifu wants to.

Cult like I hear bells ringing.


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## wckf92 (Apr 30, 2016)

I think this cult behavior is alive and well here in the US...


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## drop bear (Apr 30, 2016)

Pat M said:


> My time in Wing Chun has spanned 16 years and three Sifu's with the first being a student of the second. After 14 years including some time away we found ourselves no longer welcome. Being shunned by this group (but not by some members secretly) things that we had simply overlooked but known really to be wrong slowly became clear. (it amazing how you perception changes) We had been part of a cult like group where the leader manipulated his flock to act and think as he wanted, using the threat of banishment to anyone who dared to think otherwise. The classic religious maxim of there being something wrong with each and everyone of us and that through the Wing Chun under his tutelage we could be fixed. Friendships forged within the club being the property of the Sifu to be controlled and ended if one person left. Even marriage with one being destroyed in this way.
> 
> Is this common to Wing Chun or even Kung Fu?
> 
> ...




Yeah if you Google wing chun cult you do get a few hits.


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## Danny T (Apr 30, 2016)

Pat M said:


> My time in Wing Chun has spanned 16 years and three Sifu's with the first being a student of the second. After 14 years including some time away we found ourselves no longer welcome. Being shunned by this group (but not by some members secretly) things that we had simply overlooked but known really to be wrong slowly became clear. (it amazing how you perception changes) We had been part of a cult like group where the leader manipulated his flock to act and think as he wanted, using the threat of banishment to anyone who dared to think otherwise. The classic religious maxim of there being something wrong with each and everyone of us and that through the Wing Chun under his tutelage we could be fixed. Friendships forged within the club being the property of the Sifu to be controlled and ended if one person left. Even marriage with one being destroyed in this way.
> 
> Is this common to Wing Chun or even Kung Fu?
> 
> ...



Wow!!
My Sifu presses us to go out and experience other training.
I am the same.
Just don't come in and press the other training into our drills. Ask questions and when sparring try different things. But not against our drills.
I don't care who you train with or even why. All I required is that you do the training in the manner we train when training with us.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 30, 2016)

I'm not a wing chun guy, but none of this is present with my sifu.

Yes, there are those who wish to build an empire and this does occur in martial arts.  You need to find a teacher for whom that is not his priority.  They do exist.


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## Marnetmar (Apr 30, 2016)

Rule of thumb: If a Sifu reacts badly to being called by his first name, at least outside of class, get the hell out of there.


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## mograph (Apr 30, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> Rule of thumb: If a Sifu reacts badly to being called by his first name, at least outside of class, get the hell out of there.


Well ... it depends. My Sifu is about 75, from Hong Kong, learned at Jingwu, and doesn't speak much English. Inside and outside of class, all his students, even those who've known him for over thirty years, call him "Sifu," whether in English or Cantonese. So he's old school ... but a sweet guy, so we call him that out of genuine respect.

Another teacher, younger, but very good, didn't mind whether we called him by "Sifu" or his first name -- he was down to earth, about my age. I used his first name, and he was fine with it, but some of his more adoring students seemed to bristle when I did that.

One of my recent psych professors, a leader in her field, seemed about my age (around 50). I asked her how she'd like to be addressed, and she said it would be best if I called her "professor" in class, but I could call her by her first name outside of class and her colleagues did the same.

But yeah, I can see how your rule would be true in a fair number of cases.


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## Marnetmar (Apr 30, 2016)

I suppose I should've said that my little rule applies more to western instructors than it does to ones actually from China. After all, in China, the term "sifu" is not unlike calling calling a professor "professor" or Mr/Mrs.

In the West on the other hand, terms like Sifu and Sensei have become embedded with mystical qualities and thus become a big ego-stroker for Westerners.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 30, 2016)

I don't think cults or cult-like behavior are exactly _normal_ for WC or kung-fu or martial arts in general, but they aren't unheard of either. I think that any time you have an overly hierarchical culture where respect is supposedly due based on rank or where expertise in one area (i.e. martial arts) is presumed to translate into authority in other areas (like life in general), then you have the risk of developing this sort of problem. It's not inevitable, but it's the general failure mode of devotion to authority.

(That's not limited to martial arts, BTW.)


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## drop bear (Apr 30, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> Rule of thumb: If a Sifu reacts badly to being called by his first name, at least outside of class, get the hell out of there.



Yeah.  My mum did chun for a bit.  And it got like that. 

She got pulled up for not showing proper respect. And dumped the whole school lile a hot spud.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 30, 2016)

as human beings we are only controlled by a cult to the degree in which we ourselves allow it.


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## dudewingchun (Apr 30, 2016)

My first teacher had a problem with people from different wing chun's coming.Used to think they were a spy coming to steal his "secret" techniques....


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2016)

I have no Idea what you guys are talking about. Cults? Preposterous!

My first sifu was a humble 10th level Grandmaster with the rank of _Master of Comprehension_. Now he has ascended to the rank of _Master of Almightyness_ (why does this always sound like a Jim Carey line to me?). 

Anyway after being his student and disciple for about a dozen years, I stopped training under him when his fees and demands on my personal life exceeded what any sane person could give. I quietly slid away from the organization. Many years later I began training again with one of my old si-dais, who in the intervening years had become very skilled. But when he left the organization, everyone associated with him (including me) was shunned. Friends and training partners I had known for decades would not even speak to me. Now I ask you, what's cultish about that?


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## Eric_H (May 1, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> My first teacher had a problem with people from different wing chun's coming.Used to think they were a spy coming to steal his "secret" techniques....



I belong to a school where a well known WC Teacher/Author came to our school, copied down the stuff from our blackboard and then released it a few months later as his own information. It sounds a bit like a terrible 1970's movie, but that stuff totally happens.


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## LFJ (May 1, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> Rule of thumb: If a Sifu reacts badly to being called by his first name, at least outside of class, get the hell out of there.



If on their Facebook profile their first name _is_ Sifu, get the hell out of there.


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## Touch Of Death (May 1, 2016)

I won't join a cult that would have me as a member.


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## Pat M (May 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> I have no Idea what you guys are talking about. Cults? Preposterous!
> 
> My first sifu was a humble 10th level Grandmaster with the rank of _Master of Comprehension_. Now he has ascended to the rank of _Master of Almightyness_ (why does this always sound like a Jim Carey line to me?).
> 
> Anyway after being his student and disciple for about a dozen years, I stopped training under him when his fees and demands on my personal life exceeded what any sane person could give. I quietly slid away from the organization. Many years later I began training again with one of my old si-dais, who in the intervening years had become very skilled. But when he left the organization, everyone associated with him (including me) was shunned. Friends and training partners I had known for decades would not even speak to me. Now I ask you, what's cultish about that?



This was pretty much the experience when leaving the second Sifu


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## Pat M (May 1, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> as human beings we are only controlled by a cult to the degree in which we ourselves allow it.



Wise words, given hind sight this is easy and pretty much why I was not prepared to overlook what I saw as ethically wrong.
Previously I would just overlook this, not any more.


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## Pat M (May 1, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't think cults or cult-like behavior are exactly _normal_ for WC or kung-fu or martial arts in general, but they aren't unheard of either. I think that any time you have an overly hierarchical culture where respect is supposedly due based on rank or where expertise in one area (i.e. martial arts) is presumed to translate into authority in other areas (like life in general), then you have the risk of developing this sort of problem. It's not inevitable, but it's the general failure mode of devotion to authority.
> 
> (That's not limited to martial arts, BTW.)



I would certainly like to agree as my hope is that the human spirit is good and that ultimate power will not always corrupt.
Perhaps only twice unlucky. Unsure if I will go for three.


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## Pat M (May 1, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Wow!!
> My Sifu presses us to go out and experience other training.
> I am the same.
> Just don't come in and press the other training into our drills. Ask questions and when sparring try different things. But not against our drills.
> I don't care who you train with or even why. All I required is that you do the training in the manner we train when training with us.



Could not agree more Danny, testing things is good.
I'm lucky to have had exposure to Karate x 2 styles, Mantis KF x 2 different schools same style and WC x 2 lineage.
Having been nothing but respectful wanting to learn this new approach but being disappointed by hypocrisy and inequity.
If not for my honesty I guess I would not have learned the true maturity of the Sifu. 61 YO westerner


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## Pat M (May 1, 2016)

You have not really lived until you have been part of a Cult, it was not something that was an ambition of mine.
While on the inside it's hard to see the warning signs because the feeling of belonging and wishing for acceptance blurs your perception.

It's character building.


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## Phobius (May 1, 2016)

You guys actually make me almost wish I too was in a cult.

My sify is very eager for us to experience other arts and figuring things out for ourselves. A bad attitude to have if you want to start a cult I believe.


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## Danny T (May 1, 2016)

Eric_H said:


> I belong to a school where a well known WC Teacher/Author came to our school, copied down the stuff from our blackboard and then released it a few months later as his own information. It sounds a bit like a terrible 1970's movie, but that stuff totally happens.


Eric, as I've state already my door is open to all. I really don't care who one has trained with nor for how long. Makes for good conversation when first meeting but it really means nothing. As soon as we start moving, drilling, practicing, sparring it becomes evident if one has any real training.
I also have a lot of information written that students are able to copy/take photos of or have hand outs for students review. Key is 'review' everything I have available for student review has missing pieces or blocks of information. Have been confronted several times by both students and outsiders who had obtained a copy or two of the review material starting it is incomplete or that what I'm teaching is wrong. 
Nope not wrong it just that you've got to actually come train with me to get the rest of the material.


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## Touch Of Death (May 1, 2016)

Phobius said:


> You guys actually make me almost wish I too was in a cult.
> 
> My sify is very eager for us to experience other arts and figuring things out for ourselves. A bad attitude to have if you want to start a cult I believe.


Oldest cult trick in the book.


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## Xue Sheng (May 1, 2016)

Pat M said:


> My time in Wing Chun has spanned 16 years and three Sifu's with the first being a student of the second. After 14 years including some time away we found ourselves no longer welcome. Being shunned by this group (but not by some members secretly) things that we had simply overlooked but known really to be wrong slowly became clear. (it amazing how you perception changes) We had been part of a cult like group where the leader manipulated his flock to act and think as he wanted, using the threat of banishment to anyone who dared to think otherwise. The classic religious maxim of there being something wrong with each and everyone of us and that through the Wing Chun under his tutelage we could be fixed. Friendships forged within the club being the property of the Sifu to be controlled and ended if one person left. Even marriage with one being destroyed in this way.
> 
> Is this common to Wing Chun or even Kung Fu?
> 
> ...



Trained with a few old Chinese guys, and a few Americans as well and never ran into this. My second sifu asked I stop training other styles for a bit, until I got taiji under control, but after that did not much care what I did and at times even asked me questions about it.

Trained in 2 Wing Chun groups, one was rather closed, meaning they all thought what they did was best, but not cultish and the other doesn't really care what you do. Heck I use to do push hands there with some of those guys.

And other that Dr Yang (Yang Jwing MIng), show I only called Dr Yang, I have called all of my teachers by thier first names in and out of class. I did train with Chen Zhenglei, although I am not his student and never saw him outside of a class, I called him Chen Sifu. 

I do call my taiji teacher sifu, in class, sometimes (I may be the only one that does these days). However a while back several of his students started calling him "Grand Master".... he told them to stop.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 1, 2016)

Pat M said:


> Perhaps only twice unlucky. Unsure if I will go for three.


I would hope that by now you know how to recognize the signs and could bail before devoting too much time and energy to a cult-like training group.


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## geezer (May 1, 2016)

Eric_H said:


> I belong to a school where a well known WC Teacher/Author came to our school, copied down the stuff from our blackboard and then released it a few months later as his own information. It sounds a bit like a terrible 1970's movie, but that stuff totally happens.



In a non-culty world, where information was not held back as secret knowledge, a person would visit your school, borrow the information, and if they chose to quote it, they would do so with _proper attribution_, giving credit to your sifu.

_Imagine_ a world in which WC/VT sifus would share knowledge and credit each other respectfully. You may say that I'm a dreamer...


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## Eric_H (May 1, 2016)

LFJ said:


> If on their Facebook profile their first name _is_ Sifu, get the hell out of there.



+1000



Danny T said:


> Eric, as I've state already my door is open to all. I really don't care who one has trained with nor for how long. Makes for good conversation when first meeting but it really means nothing. As soon as we start moving, drilling, practicing, sparring it becomes evident if one has any real training.
> I also have a lot of information written that students are able to copy/take photos of or have hand outs for students review. Key is 'review' everything I have available for student review has missing pieces or blocks of information. Have been confronted several times by both students and outsiders who had obtained a copy or two of the review material starting it is incomplete or that what I'm teaching is wrong.
> Nope not wrong it just that you've got to actually come train with me to get the rest of the material.



You seem to have taken what I related as something directed specifically at you. It is not. Just something that happened that makes me understand why some people are more closed door than others.


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## Eric_H (May 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> In a non-culty world, where information was not held back as secret knowledge, a person would visit your school, borrow the information, and if they chose to quote it, they would do so with _proper attribution_, giving credit to your sifu.
> 
> _Imagine_ a world in which WC/VT sifus would share knowledge and credit each other respectfully. You may say that I'm a dreamer...



Would have saved a lot of trouble if only the party in question had the ethics to do so in the first place. I'm happy to list who I learned what from (even if they're not always happy to have taught me - ha!)


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## Buka (May 1, 2016)

I've seen some cults from a close, but safe, distance. Lost a student to a cult that his mom fell victim to. Worked with the Feds when the Moonies were all the rage and trying to weasel their way into the Martial World.(and this was before I was in law enforcement) Have a buddy who lost a relative to Scientology. 

I salute and wish the best for anyone who has escaped a cult, be it major or minor.


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## dudewingchun (May 1, 2016)

Eric_H said:


> +1000
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to have taken what I related as something directed specifically at you. It is not. Just something that happened that makes me understand why some people are more closed door than others.



In my case my old teacher told us we had to put a piece of paper over the window to stop the fitness gym across the hall security cameras from stealing techniques......... and said it to us like its a fact, like he knows 100% that someone is sitting there taking notes. Some people seem to think the title 'Sifu"  is equivalent to being a messiah.


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## Marnetmar (May 1, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> In my case my old teacher told us we had to put a piece of paper over the window to stop the fitness gym across the hall security cameras from stealing techniques......... and said it to us like its a fact, like he knows 100% that someone is sitting there taking notes. Some people seem to think the title 'Sifu"  is equivalent to being a messiah.



To quote the comic book guy, loneliness and Heimbergers are a dangerous mix.


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## Touch Of Death (May 1, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> In my case my old teacher told us we had to put a piece of paper over the window to stop the fitness gym across the hall security cameras from stealing techniques......... and said it to us like its a fact, like he knows 100% that someone is sitting there taking notes. Some people seem to think the title 'Sifu"  is equivalent to being a messiah.


Sifus are supposed to be messianic, or why follow them?


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## Touch Of Death (May 1, 2016)

And, of course we are all in little mini-cults. Get real.


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## Danny T (May 1, 2016)

Eric_H said:


> You seem to have taken what I related as something directed specifically at you. It is not. Just something that happened that makes me understand why some people are more closed door than others.


Didn't take it in that manner, Nope...wasn't what my intention was...sorry it came off that way to you.

I understand why some people can be closed door.
It is why I don't list everything on our review sheets. 
One of my instructors makes a few small changes on somethings every year. Nothing major but is enough to know immediately who has been practicing and keeping up with the changes. Prevents the higher level students/instructor from becoming complacent or feel they don't need to keep honing their skills.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2016)

Pat M said:


> Everyone signs off on their membership that they will not teach or train martial arts out side the school so this rule can be applied how, why and when ever the Sifu wants to.
> 
> Cult like I hear bells ringing.



I'd question the need to have students sign something saying they won't train outside the school. That's a red flag right up front, to me.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> Rule of thumb: If a Sifu reacts badly to being called by his first name, at least outside of class, get the hell out of there.


That's not always a horrible thing. Some are simply following a long tradition, as they were exposed to it. I struggled with this, myself. It's normal in our art (at least in my experience) to hang on to the "Mr." and "Ms." formality with the instructor outside the school. I decided to drop it beyond the dojo walls, and it still feels odd to me to do that. Sometimes, they're just doing what they're used to, rather than having some ego trip.


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## mograph (May 2, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Sifus are supposed to be messianic, or why follow them?


It depends on how we see the Sifu; as a Messiah, or as a teacher of a subject? Does that teacher have unlimited knowledge of a subject? Or does he just have more knowledge on that subject than I (currently) do?

I don't _follow_ my Sifu; I take his classes, and follow his _instruction_ in the context of our classes. 

As for the mini-cult thing, that depends on the extent to which we _identify_ with our chosen system. More identification = more mini-cult status. I've come to believe that identifying with a system is like being a "Chevy man" or a "Ford man." I drive a Mazda, really like it, and expect to buy another when the time comes; but am I a "Mazda man?" Nope.


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## Danny T (May 2, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Sifus are supposed to be messianic, or why follow them?


You are being facetious?


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## Touch Of Death (May 2, 2016)

We are a model based culture, Models should be a bit more than just charismatic; so, that leaves messianic, but in a good way.


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## mograph (May 2, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> We are a model based culture, Models should be a bit more than just charismatic; so, that leaves messianic, but in a good way.


Examples outside martial arts?


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## Touch Of Death (May 2, 2016)

mograph said:


> Examples outside martial arts?


Teachers, used to be unmarried good Christian women of virtue. Now, not so much...


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## Touch Of Death (May 2, 2016)

Anyways, that was a model for the other little girls to follow, before marriage.


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## Pat M (May 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'd question the need to have students sign something saying they won't train outside the school. That's a red flag right up front, to me.



Yeah signing that form for the first time I thought it was an realistic request. Then I noted that there were students in breach of this requirement? I then realized that it was something to be used when and if required to exclude a student.

I have no issue with rules, just make them equitable with all including the Sifu being answerable to then. 

True integrity. 
Rule number one "respect the art"


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## Tortoise (May 3, 2016)

One highly ranked instructor I know of will make sure you cannot find anyone else to teach you, at least in his particular lineage since that is the only place he has power, should you have any type of disagreement with him.


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## Touch Of Death (May 3, 2016)

Tortoise said:


> One highly ranked instructor I know of will make sure you cannot find anyone else to teach you, at least in his particular lineage since that is the only place he has power, should you have any type of disagreement with him.


That is perfectly normal. If you leave any job, on bad terms, it is a bad reference.


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## Dirty Dog (May 3, 2016)

Tortoise said:


> One highly ranked instructor I know of will make sure you cannot find anyone else to teach you, at least in his particular lineage since that is the only place he has power, should you have any type of disagreement with him.



That is ridiculous.



Touch Of Death said:


> That is perfectly normal. If you leave any job, on bad terms, it is a bad reference.



That's backwards. I am paying _him_, so if I think he sucks as an instructor, he's the one who gets the bad reference.


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## Touch Of Death (May 3, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> That is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> That's backwards. I am paying _him_, so if I think he sucks as an instructor, he's the one who gets the bad reference.


If The original instructor has an affiliation with other schools, well, guess what happens.


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## Pat M (May 3, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> That is perfectly normal. If you leave any job, on bad terms, it is a bad reference.



Even if your boss was in the wrong?
But I guess reality is that which bites.....


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## Touch Of Death (May 3, 2016)

Pat M said:


> Even if your boss was in the wrong?
> But I guess reality is that which bites.....


You can plead your case, but if they are close affiliates, business is business.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 3, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> That is perfectly normal. If you leave any job, on bad terms, it is a bad reference.


I disagree. This presupposes that the instructor is always in the right. Just because I disagree with someone who has high rank, that doesn't automatically make me wrong, nor unfit for other instructors. Now, if I've been a problem - poor attitude or behavior - that's a different matter.


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## Touch Of Death (May 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I disagree. This presupposes that the instructor is always in the right. Just because I disagree with someone who has high rank, that doesn't automatically make me wrong, nor unfit for other instructors. Now, if I've been a problem - poor attitude or behavior - that's a different matter.


Attitude is always first, but if you have a problem with the instruction, I doubt the affiliated school is much better.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 3, 2016)

Pat M said:


> Yeah signing that form for the first time I thought it was an realistic request. Then I noted that there were students in breach of this requirement? I then realized that it was something to be used when and if required to exclude a student.
> 
> I have no issue with rules, just make them equitable with all including the Sifu being answerable to then.
> 
> ...


I'd prefer a rule that simply says the student attends at the pleasure of the instructor, who can terminate the agreement at any time. That particular rule you mentioned is a warning to me, since it implies they considered that (when writing up the agreement) a problem.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 3, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Attitude is always first, but if you have a problem with the instruction, I doubt the affiliated school is much better.



Not necessarily. There can be very different personalities (and instructor attitudes/approaches) running the different schools in a branch of any association.


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## Touch Of Death (May 3, 2016)

If you are a complete psycho, my teacher would also consider warning the TKD, Tang su do, guys, or anyone else who would listen; because you are a psycho. LOL


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## Touch Of Death (May 3, 2016)

On a related note, I know a guy that left on bad terms, because he felt he deserved a Black Belt. He goes from school to school, with that one little request; because, as far as he is concerned, he has been ready to test since high school, and for some reason, nobody wants to hang a black belt on this guy. No phone calls needed.


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## Eric_H (May 3, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> On a related note, I know a guy that left on bad terms, because he felt he deserved a Black Belt. He goes from school to school, with that one little request; because, as far as he is concerned, he has been ready to test since high school, and for some reason, nobody wants to hang a black belt on this guy. No phone calls needed.



I know "that guy" too. I think most of us know him.

His cousin "guy who can't let his last art go and always tries to take your head off with it" is a popular one too.


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## drop bear (May 4, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> On a related note, I know a guy that left on bad terms, because he felt he deserved a Black Belt. He goes from school to school, with that one little request; because, as far as he is concerned, he has been ready to test since high school, and for some reason, nobody wants to hang a black belt on this guy. No phone calls needed.



Kudo. He gan get one provided he can clean house.


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## Phobius (May 4, 2016)

Why does a guy wanting a black belt not simply go out and buy one? It holds as much value to him anyways.


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## Touch Of Death (May 4, 2016)

Phobius said:


> Why does a guy wanting a black belt not simply go out and buy one? It holds as much value to him anyways.


Without the credentials, he can't promote others. He is done.


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## Phobius (May 4, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Without the credentials, he can't promote others. He is done.



I must be a boring person.  Wasn't really serious. Hehe.


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## geezer (May 4, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Without the credentials, he can't promote others. He is done.



Of course he can promote others!  He Just has to invent his own style and join one of those mail order "soke-ship" or "Hall of Fame" outfits. Heck, if he'd pay enough for it,_ I'd_ give him a black belt ...or one of those red and white master ones.

Of course I don't hold a black belt in any system (the arts I train don't use a belt system) ...but if he can "clean house" I'm game. Does he do windows too?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 5, 2016)

It's kind of a long read, but the following open letter from Ryan Hall is relevant to the discussion:

The Dangers of Hero Worship: An Open Letter from Ryan Hall | The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

He doesn't name names, but folks in the BJJ community will know the specific situation and individuals he is alluding to. Regardless, I think his points are relevant to anyone who encounters a cult-like situation.


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## Buka (May 6, 2016)

I feel bad for Ryan, he seems tortured by this.

@Tony, I'm pretty sure you know the parties involved. Ever hear any of this before?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 6, 2016)

Buka said:


> I feel bad for Ryan, he seems tortured by this.
> 
> @Tony, I'm pretty sure you know the parties involved. Ever hear any of this before?


The Cult of Lloyd Irvin
Lloyd Irvin Rape Truth
Georgette's Jiu Jitsu World: The Truth About Lloyd Irvin

Ryan had split from Lloyd Irvin before all the rape stuff came out, but he apparently had some bad experiences leading up to and resulting from the split.


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## Pat M (May 7, 2016)

Thanks for that link Tony,
Very interesting read, I have still not made it the whole way through but will.
This appears to have been a much worse experience to ours however there is much that feels familiar.
The difference of perception once you are out is frightening and anyone who has not been in that situation truly will struggle to fully understand.
That transition is horrible however the weight of the world is soon off your shoulders.   



Tony Dismukes said:


> It's kind of a long read, but the following open letter from Ryan Hall is relevant to the discussion:
> 
> The Dangers of Hero Worship: An Open Letter from Ryan Hall | The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
> 
> He doesn't name names, but folks in the BJJ community will know the specific situation and individuals he is alluding to. Regardless, I think his points are relevant to anyone who encounters a cult-like situation.


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