# Where did the SKH stuff come from?



## Senin (Oct 30, 2005)

This is kinda an off-shoot of the other thread, but I would like this question addressed.  Where did SKH get the stuff he put in his books-- especially the 6 book series he did?  I know some of it is his own interpretation of ninjutsu and his attempt to systemitize it-- godai.  But what about all the mental/spiritual stuff?  The Observer meditation.  The feelings section of the godai?  If this is not from Soke, then where did it come?  And why would he put it in his "ninjutsu" book if it wasn't from Soke (ie, from ninjutsu)?


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## Dale Seago (Nov 2, 2005)

Merchandising.

The more commonly used term today is "Branding" -- means essentially the same thing.


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## Senin (Nov 4, 2005)

Perhaps Mr Hayes is trying to merge his training with Soke with what he had studied about ninpo.  Hence the heavy emphasis on mikkyo.  Could it therefore be said that Soke is not usually teaching ninpo but rather ninjutsu (mostly taijutsu but also weapons work)?

If Soke doesn't teach ninpo, is anyone else really qualified?  It would seem that Mr Hayes is trying to teach ninpo and I believe the Genbukan (spelling?) is also trying to teach it.


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## Don Roley (Nov 5, 2005)

Senin said:
			
		

> Perhaps Mr Hayes is trying to merge his training with Soke with what he had studied about ninpo.



Where the heck could he have learned about ninpo outside of Hatsumi?

Mikkyo is not ninpo. There are of course ties, but one does not equal the other. I could easily talk about the ties between classical Noh drama and ninpo. There is a connection. But to say you study Noh does not mean that you have the slightest idea of what ninpo is all about.


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 7, 2005)

Senin,

Although you questions are well intentioned... They probably should be answered by Hayes Shihan himself.

There are other boards out there that have more answers than we would. It just seems like you are trying to discredit a Shihan of the Bujinkan. We do not practice putting down any Shihan that Soke deems worthy enough to wear the orange and green patch!

That being said... if your questions are sincere which they seem to be... we really don't know honestly, enough, why things are done that way.

:ninja:
FN


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 7, 2005)

Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> Senin,
> We do not practice putting down any Shihan that Soke deems worthy enough to wear the orange and green patch!


 
There is always honne and tatemae.


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## Senin (Nov 7, 2005)

Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> Senin,
> 
> Although you questions are well intentioned... They probably should be answered by Hayes Shihan himself.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply, Fallen.  But this is a Discussion board about Mr Hayes and his art.  It seems like a question like that would seem fair game on such a discussion board.

By the way, I have tremendous respect for Mr Hayes.  I just wonder what is what.  The things that Mr Hayes wrote about does not seem to be part of Soke's circulum.  Maybe it is, or was, or only for a select few.


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## eyebeams (Nov 7, 2005)

I'm interested in an answer to the original topic. Where do the godai techniques come from? Are they invented, or reorganized from the Bujinkan curriculum?


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 8, 2005)

Senin said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply, Fallen. But this is a Discussion board about Mr Hayes and his art. It seems like a question like that would seem fair game on such a discussion board.
> 
> By the way, I have tremendous respect for Mr Hayes. I just wonder what is what. The things that Mr Hayes wrote about does not seem to be part of Soke's circulum. Maybe it is, or was, or only for a select few.


Fair enough... but remember there is no one qualified to answer your questons. So if you want real answers here would not be the place to get them. Unless a personal student came on. I think Hayes is a priest of mikkyo or something to that effect. I heard somewhere that he took the go gyo and expounded on it from his mikkyo practices. I really don't know and now I'm just gossiping! 

:ninja:
FN


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## Deaf (Nov 8, 2005)

Fallen Ninja is right. You need to go to Hayes and ask that question. I'm sure you know his web site to where you can get his email to ask the question.

Anything else is really just speculation however to clarify FN's mentioning, Hayes is an ordained teacher of japanese vajrayana meditation tradition.  Whether or not that means he is a priest or something, I have no idea.  And whether or not he incorporated the Godai from those concepts...again, you are better off asking Hayes himself.

Too bad there really are not a lot of Toshindo people who come to this board to be able to help you out.  

~Deaf~


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## Gina Jordan (Nov 8, 2005)

Check out this link in reference to the origin of the Godai.

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/godai.php

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk


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## Jonathan Randall (Nov 8, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Check out this link in reference to the origin of the Godai.
> 
> http://www.quest-l.com/collection/godai.php
> 
> ...


 
Are you Gary Arthur or Gina Jordan?


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## Don Roley (Nov 8, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Check out this link in reference to the origin of the Godai.
> 
> http://www.quest-l.com/collection/godai.php



Interesting part of the above article.



> I worked to grasp the deeper meaning of the go-dai by means of late evening talks with Dr. Hatsumi, and much exploration with two of the seniors at that time (these two men have since gone their own way and no longer train with the Bujinkan Dojo, so it would be disrespectful to list their names here). Everyone else at the dojo assured me that the five elements were just a device for counting as far as they were concerned. Convinced that there had to be more, I continued my cultural detective work. I sought out descendants of the monks and mountain priests allied with the roots of ninjutsu who referred to the five elements in the form of mandala graphics that described like blueprints the human psyche. As the years of study went by, the meaning of the go-dai five elements became more and more clear to me.



First of all, it would seem that aside from Hayes, Hatsumi has never said anything about the godai being what Hayes says it is. Ben Cole just wrote in another thread that he was surprised to find out that even today Hayes speaks only elementary school level Japanese. So it would be very difficult for him to understand these talks between himself and any Japanese at the time. And it would be very easy to misinterpept what was being said.

And the second part where he says that he sought out monks and mountain priests kind of shows that what he got was not from the Bujinkan. 

There is a problem that many people deeling with a foriegn language and cultrure tend to make. That is, they don't realize that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes there are deeper meanings, but most times there are not.

Take for example the fact that most people in America would avoid being married on friday the 13th. Why is that day so bad? Well, it is said that a long time ago a great man met with his 12 students on what is now called Good Friday. And we know what happened to him.

So someone from outside the culture might think that people avoiding that day for important things are devout Christians. But even atheists tend to avoid having important things on friday the 13th.

Hayes made a lot, I mean a lot, of mistakes in the beggining. He did not have the background, the abilities or the experience that many of us now do. It should not be surprising that he tried his best to seek out answers for his questions with as many sources as he could, nor that he still made a heck of a lot of mistakes anyways.


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## Gina Jordan (Nov 8, 2005)

> Take for example the fact that most people in America would avoid being married on friday the 13th. Why is that day so bad? Well, it is said that a long time ago a great man met with his 12 students on what is now called Good Friday. And we know what happened to him.


 
Sorry, not trying to be facetious or anything, but i thought the knightsd templer were executed on Friday the 13th.



> Are you Gary Arthur or Gina Jordan?


 
I thought this had been sorted out and the name on the posts changed. The post shoulf read Gary Arthur. If a moderator will change this for me I would be very obblidged. When I attempt to open an account in my name I cannot get on.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk


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## arnisador (Nov 8, 2005)

PM a staff member--an admin can change it.


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## heretic888 (Nov 8, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> First of all, it would seem that aside from Hayes, Hatsumi has never said anything about the godai being what Hayes says it is.


 
Another problem here is that Hayes' presentation of the _godai_ is not how it is actually taught in the Buddhist _Vajrayana_ and _Tantrayana_ traditions (which in Japan became the _Tendai-shu_ and _Shingon-shu_). This _godai_ largely seems to be Hayes' own invention.

Ignoring for a second that there are actually six elements (_rokudai_) in Buddhist philosophy and not the simple five Hayes writes about...

As far back as Hayes' first Ohara publication (_Ninja, Vol. 1: Spirit of the Shadow Warrior_), he presented his conception of the _godai_ and implicity correlated them with the _chakra_ system of traditional Indian _Tantra_ (re: base center, abdomen center, solar plexus center, heart center, throat center). From this, one might gather that Hayes presented the concepts as hierarchical levels of awareness or levels of training (which is basically how they are understood in _Tantra_). With the possible exception of Void, Hayes does not seem to do this and maintains none of the elements are "better", "higher", more "advanced", or more "developed" than the others. Instead, for him, they refer to emotional "moods" or "feelings" that we fluctuate through moment-to-moment in daily life.

In the _Tantrayana_ and _Vajrayana_ traditions, by contrast, the elements are viewed as hierarchically nested both ontologically and psychologically. They are symbols of distinctive stages of awareness and development (albeit there are disagreements from tradition to tradition). They do not refer to our "moods" or "attitudes" from moment-to-moment. There are hints of such a hierarchy in Miyamoto Musashi's classic _Go Rin No Sho_.

The relation that this elemental hierarchy can have to _budo_ has been discussed before on another thread - Levels of Training.

Laterz.


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## eyebeams (Nov 8, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Another problem here is that Hayes' presentation of the _godai_ is not how it is actually taught in the Buddhist _Vajrayana_ and _Tantrayana_ traditions (which in Japan became the _Tendai-shu_ and _Shingon-shu_). This _godai_ largely seems to be Hayes' own invention.
> 
> Ignoring for a second that there are actually six elements (_rokudai_) in Buddhist philosophy and not the simple five Hayes writes about...
> 
> ...


  That is true to an extent, but Vajrayana tradition does not necessarily exalt one over the other in terms of epistemological insight. The elements are in part related to the Hindu lokadhatu as seen through a Buddhist POV, so each element is associated with a particular "unskillfull" psychological state. One element may in some sense be "wiser" than another, but all of them reveal unskillfull fixations compared to the Buddha-nature. At the same time, Tantric thought does concentrate on the tranformation of such states into wisdom-acquiring dharmas.  The confusing bit is that different sects and groups of laypeople are going to see this in different ways. The difference between clerical doctrine and folk traditions like Shugendo and Ryobu Shinto allows room to fold, spindle and "mutilate" (adapt, really) doctrinal sources. The divide between folk tradition and the Buddhist clergy is something you find throughout Asia, so I wouldn't be too quick to compare any manifestation in a folk source (like budo) with a core religious source and make off the cuff value judgments.


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## Shogun (Nov 8, 2005)

> First of all, it would seem that aside from Hayes, Hatsumi has never said anything about the godai being what Hayes says it is. Ben Cole just wrote in another thread that he was surprised to find out that even today Hayes speaks only elementary school level Japanese. So it would be very difficult for him to understand these talks between himself and any Japanese at the time. And it would be very easy to misinterpept what was being said.


I guess he could have asked his wife, Rumiko. she speaks.

I have some of Hayes newest dvd's and he tells of how the Gogyo no kata are a listing device for the different levels of training. furthermore, he defines the difference between Godai and Go gyo no kata, and in his To-shindo course, the idea of using levels are present. In fact, his course is based on these levels. No mention of "feeling" present. He mentions more of an Elemental "motion" when relating to Gogyo and godai. He then tells of how the Godai come from indian philosphy and Gogyo from Japan.

hope this helps.


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## Bester (Nov 8, 2005)

Gary,
  If your account is closed you need to contact the adminteam to reopen it. I believe that information is displayed when you log in with a closed account. Keep sharing accounts and everyone involved ends up banned, boycotted and parcel posted.


***PPPSSSSHHHHTTT***
I Varnish!!!!


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## Cryozombie (Nov 8, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> The post shoulf read Gary Arthur. If a moderator will change this for me I would be very obblidged. When I attempt to open an account in my name I cannot get on.
> 
> Gary Arthur
> www.toshindo.co.uk



Gary, bester is correct on this.  If you could PM one of the Admins they can correct the problem with your account so you can post correctly, and not share an account with Gina.

Thank you.


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 8, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I guess he could have asked his wife, Rumiko. she speaks.
> 
> I have some of Hayes newest dvd's and he tells of how the Gogyo no kata are a listing device for the different levels of training. furthermore, he defines the difference between Godai and Go gyo no kata, and in his To-shindo course, the idea of using levels are present. In fact, his course is based on these levels. No mention of "feeling" present. He mentions more of an Elemental "motion" when relating to Gogyo and godai. He then tells of how the Godai come from indian philosphy and Gogyo from Japan.
> 
> hope this helps.


Well I guess that kinda clears things up... I was getting kinda confused with all the Buddist talk!:idunno: 

Good answer. Right to the point.
By the way... are there any real ToShinDo practitioners here? Wish we could actually see the other side of the coin. Getting tired of hearing my self talk! Ha Ha Ha!

:ninja:
FN


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## Deaf (Nov 9, 2005)

I think we scared them all off!  Which is unfortunate since I love a good argument from time to time!


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## Cryozombie (Nov 9, 2005)

Gary Arthur is a Toshindo instructor.  So we have at least 1.

Hey, I was on Winjutsu this morning and I saw in the section explaining the Sanshin:



> [FONT=verdana,arial] Chi no kata translated means _"earth pattern."
> _[/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial] Sui no kata translated means _"water pattern."
> _


_


_Etc... 

Does that maybe have anything to do with the source of the "elemental" feelings?
[/FONT]


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## heretic888 (Nov 9, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> That is true to an extent, but Vajrayana tradition does not necessarily exalt one over the other in terms of epistemological insight. The elements are in part related to the Hindu lokadhatu as seen through a Buddhist POV, so each element is associated with a particular "unskillfull" psychological state. One element may in some sense be "wiser" than another, but all of them reveal unskillfull fixations compared to the Buddha-nature. At the same time, Tantric thought does concentrate on the tranformation of such states into wisdom-acquiring dharmas. The confusing bit is that different sects and groups of laypeople are going to see this in different ways. The difference between clerical doctrine and folk traditions like Shugendo and Ryobu Shinto allows room to fold, spindle and "mutilate" (adapt, really) doctrinal sources. The divide between folk tradition and the Buddhist clergy is something you find throughout Asia, so I wouldn't be too quick to compare any manifestation in a folk source (like budo) with a core religious source and make off the cuff value judgments.


 
Eyebeams,

The point I was trying to make was that Hayes' use of the _godai_ does not derive any more from _Mikkyo_ than it does from _Ninpo_. It is largely his own invention.

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Nov 9, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I have some of Hayes newest dvd's and he tells of how the Gogyo no kata are a listing device for the different levels of training. furthermore, he defines the difference between Godai and Go gyo no kata, and in his To-shindo course, the idea of using levels are present. In fact, his course is based on these levels. No mention of "feeling" present. He mentions more of an Elemental "motion" when relating to Gogyo and godai. He then tells of how the Godai come from indian philosphy and Gogyo from Japan.


 
Well, I haven't seen any of Hayes' newer material so I can't comment there.

However, I feel we are collapsing concepts here. When I say "levels", I am explicitly invoking the notion of a hierarchy here. In a hierarchical schema, a senior level is intrinsically superior or better than a junior level (which is definitely how the elements are treated in, say, the _chakra_ systems).

Are you therefore suggesting that, say, "fire" methods in Hayes' system are instrinsically superior to "earth" and "water" methods?? If not, then you are simply invoking chronological stages and not hierarchical stages.

Laterz.


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## Shogun (Nov 9, 2005)

Not sure how he uses the levels. I think its more of a rock paper scissors deal. ????

It is possible that the Hierarchy is Ground water fire wind void. not sure. just posting what Hayes says on his dvds.

regards,
Kyle


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 9, 2005)

I think it is just a feeling that one would have when they train. I heard somewhere that there are some of the same techniques found throughout the course with a different feel. I don't think anyone would be better than the other. Where is Ginary Aurthorden when you need them?')

I'm still trying to figure our the new level of Hicho No Kata we went over last night. And the bruises on my face because of it.

:ninja:
FN


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## Shogun (Nov 10, 2005)

Last time I practiced Hicho No Kamae vigorlously, we were Kicking each other....well...low.
that was at  Tenchijin seminar. good painful material


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 10, 2005)

What always amazes me is that one can disect the Kata down to the basic movement and derive a whole lesson from it. The henka you can get from just one Kata is awesome.

:ninja:
FN

by the way... doesn't this look like Ku of the San Shin? :btg:


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## Don Roley (Nov 10, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I guess he could have asked his wife, Rumiko. she speaks.



Except, at the time he was having these conversations, he wasn't married to her. He probably did not even meet her until well into training.


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 11, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Except, at the time he was having these conversations, he wasn't married to her. He probably did not even meet her until well into training.


Now, now Don you don't know when he was married.
:whip: 

"ninja"
FN


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## Gina Jordan (Nov 12, 2005)

Don
If you spent time looking at the Stephen K Hayes web site instead of throwing out Anti Stephen K Hayes misinformation you would see that it says that Stephen and Rumiko Hayes have been married for 25 years. Now based on the fact that we are now living in 2005, that takes us back to 1980. This fact however has been on the website for quite a while so this takes us back to maybe at least 1979. Now they did not meet and marry on the same day, and I know for a fact that An Shu Rumiko was training before they got married, so this I guess takes us back at least in the late 70s.

There is also of course a picture that floats around which shows Stephen and Rumiko Hayes pictured with Grandmaster Hatsumi in 1983 which is still before most of us had even heard of Ninjutsu, let alone trained in it.

If people just spent a little more time viewing the web site, reading An Shu Hayes books and visiting Quest L, there would be no need for most of the questions and statements that appear on this and other posts.

And before anyone mentions the name again, this is being sorted out. However Fallen Nimja writes:



> Where is Ginary Aurthorden when you need them?'


 
Love the name. Maybe one day when I start my own Ninjutsu school I might actually call it Aurthoden Ryu as I like the DEN bit at the end. Sounds a bit like Kukishinden (Joke. This is me operating from the fire level).

Oh and in regard to all these questions on the Godai i.e. is it hierachical or just a way of compartmentalising strategies?

Well once again the answers are out there if one takes the time to look. A little time researching might actually be better than listening to some of the non Stephen K Hayes people who are either badly informed or have an axe to grind.

If people wish to PM me in regard to the Godai, feel free and I can maybe point you to some good sources, or even better sign on to Quest L and speak to students of An Shu Hayes.

Ginary Aurthoden
www.toshindo.co.uk


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## Don Roley (Nov 12, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Don
> If you spent time looking at the Stephen K Hayes web site instead of throwing out Anti Stephen K Hayes misinformation you would see that it says that Stephen and Rumiko Hayes have been married for 25 years.



Except that when I first got into ninjutsu in the early 80s, I remember the announcement when they were married. If you have original copies of his early books, there is no mention of her as his wife and she is still using her maiden name of Urata. Thus she and he got married after he started coming out with the books.

Was it really needed to be as nasty as you were? Especially since I was right and knew more about the subject matter as usual?


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## Cryozombie (Nov 12, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Oh and in regard to all these questions on the Godai i.e. is it hierachical or just a way of compartmentalising strategies?
> 
> Well once again the answers are out there if one takes the time to look.



Does this mean "I have the answer but I am not telling you" or "I dont know, but want to sound like I do"?

If you know, why not share?


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## heretic888 (Nov 12, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Oh and in regard to all these questions on the Godai i.e. is it hierachical or just a way of compartmentalising strategies?
> 
> Well once again the answers are out there if one takes the time to look. A little time researching might actually be better than listening to some of the non Stephen K Hayes people who are either badly informed or have an axe to grind.


 
I guess you consider Mr. Hayes' own books (especially his five-part Ohara series) and the To-Shin Do website (www.skhquest.com) to be "bad" sources of information, then. Because those are precisely where I was deriving my information from.

Also, I don't have an axe to grind against Mr. Hayes. I am actually thankful for all he has done, as his 1984 _Ninjutsu: The Art of the Invisible Warrior_ was my very first exposure to authentic _ninpo_. Many of us in the West would probably have never even heard of the Bujinkan if it wasn't for Mr. Hayes.

However, regardless of how much we like someone or are grateful to them, facts are facts. Nothing can change that. And the facts are that much of the material that Mr. Hayes expounds --- from the straight-bladed _ninja-to_ to the historical _ninja_ as religiously oppressed outcasts to his particular usage of the _godai_ --- are his own inventions. They are based directly on neither _ninpo_ nor _mikkyo_, but on his own perceptions. Its as simple as that.

Laterz.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 12, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> his particular usage of the _godai_ --- are his own inventions. They are based directly on neither _ninpo_ nor _mikkyo_, but on his own perceptions. Its as simple as that.
> 
> Laterz.



So, in relation to my question earlier that went unanswered, these didnt develop out of the translations of the Sanshin as "earth pattern" or "Fire pattern" etc?


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## Gina Jordan (Nov 12, 2005)

Strange that considering I have a copy of History and Traditions that was published in 1981 (first edition) which states in the Acknowledgement

"This book would not have been possible without the cooperation and encouragement of my student, Shidoshi Stephen K. Hayes, and blooming in the shadows, the kunoichi Rumiko. May happiness last forever for them, and may their family continue to grow..."

Now your quote was

_



Except, at the time he was having these conversations, he wasn't married to her. He probably did not even meet her until well into training.

Click to expand...

 
Now if we take the fact that most books take at least 12 months to get published, once again this takes us back to 1980 at least. 

Now OK so this does not state that they were married, but it does show they knew each other.

Now why would An Shu Hayes lie on his web site about how long he had been married to Rumiko Hayes do you think, for to do so afords him no advantage in the world of Ninjutsu. So maybe they got married in 1980, but I can tell you that Rumiko was working with, and so knew Stephen K Hayes whilst he lived in Japan in the early days. 

As for An Shu Rumiko using her name Urata, well there are many couples that do this in the business world, so who knows why this was done.

Now I could talk about how Stephen and Rumiko met and how Rumiko got into training in the early days, and some amusing stories that go along it, as told to me by Rumiko and Stephen following the last UK seminar, but I do not think that these converstaions are for the net, as they are private to those two individuals, unless of course they themselves wish to discuss them with others.




			Was it really needed to be as nasty as you were? Especially since I was right and knew more about the subject matter as usual?
		
Click to expand...

 
I don't think I was being nasty Don, it just annoys me that the information is out there but it seems better to rely on rumour, and speculation i.e. 





Except, at the time he was having these conversations, he wasn't married to her. He probably did not even meet her until well into training.

Click to expand...

 

and then






I remember the announcement when they were married.

Click to expand...

 
So when was this Don, this announcement. maybe you have something in print? Maybe something from a newspaper article or is this just another rumour that maybe took a year or so to get to you.

So Don you actually maybe wrong on this one.

Gary Arthur_


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## Gina Jordan (Nov 12, 2005)

Technopunk wrote:



> Does this mean "I have the answer but I am not telling you" or "I dont know, but want to sound like I do"?
> 
> If you know, why not share?


 
It means neither. It means that I am unwilling to get into a thread war with people who just wish to pull apart the whole Go Dai thing. If you wish to PM me we can talk about it as you seem genuinely interested, although anything I say will of course be from my point of view, or even better speak to much higher qualified people than myself on Quest L. These guys I am sure will try to answer you questions.

Gary Arthur


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## Gina Jordan (Nov 12, 2005)

Heretic Writes

However, regardless of how much we like someone or are grateful to them, facts are facts. Nothing can change that. And the facts are that much of the material that Mr. Hayes expounds --- from the straight-bladed _ninja-to_ to the historical _ninja_ as religiously oppressed outcasts to his particular usage of the _godai_ --- are his own inventions. They are based directly on neither _ninpo_ nor _mikkyo_, but on his own perceptions. Its as simple as that.

Now I thought this Straight Bladed ninja sword thing had been discussed elsewhere. In Lore of the Shinobi Warrior Book five in the chapter "Myths of Ninjutsu" it clearly states that this idea is a cultural sterotype, and goes on to say where the misinformation possibly comes from. He then goes on to say that in Dr Hatsumis collection the majority of swords do not fall into this catergory. If one views the Stephen K Hayes DVDs one will be hard bushed to find a straight bladed sword, except possibly on the shuriken DVD, but then one can't really tell if the blade is straight as one does not, if I remember correctly, see all the blade. Its probably just a cheap blade that they did not mind damaging considering they were throwing metal shuriken at it.

Gary Arthur


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## Don Roley (Nov 12, 2005)

Gary,
I think you are mistaken about the dates, but it is only a periphreal issue.

The issue is how well Hayes got this information from Hatsumi on the Godai. The matter of Rumiko's relation is only relevant to the idea that she sat in on the conversations and translated. There is no indication that she did.

First of all, can you tell us who she was a student of while training in Japan? I am not talking about Hatsumi of course. We know Hayes trained under Tanemura and Bussy went to Nagato's. But who did Rumiko train under? There is no mention I can find that would tell me.

I looked on line because someone just sent me a letter saying that she did not train in Japan and met Hayes there, she met Hayes and then started training under or with him. I do not know if this is true or not. She is from Kyushu, not the Noda area. A good percentage of the time Hayes spent in Japan has been down in Kyushu rather than in Noda. Having in-laws myself I can sympathize with having to go see them to avoid troubles at visiting Japan and spending all his time in Noda. And since she is not from the Noda area, it would be difficult for her to get hooked up with training. Unless it was from meeting Hayes.

But you mentioned _Secrets of the Grandmaster_. You don't seem to realize that it may be one of the first times she had a conversation with Hatsumi.

Let me back up and point out that Hayes' earliest works were on the Godai he developed. The conversations he had with Hatsumi about the subject would have been before that and the question is how well he could have understood what was being said, how deep a conversation he could have had and how easy it would be to make a mistake. Of course, if Rumiko was there (as you want people to believe but can't seem to point to a resource) then his chances of getting the information correctly would go up.

Now in the book, Hayes explains about the Iguana style ninjutsu joke. The story is supposably that _after Hayes' first books came out_ there were a lot of frauds who came out of the woodwork and they tried to copy Hayes as best they could. Hatsumi made the comment at that time that they should have made an art and called it Iguana style ninjutsu and shown pictures of them doing things like sticking their tounges out, etc to see just how fast the frauds would start copying that stuff.

Now here is the key- Hayes is explaining the joke to Rumiko.

First you have the conversations that supposably lead to the Godai model and the publishing of his early books.

Then you have the frauds copying and the joke about Iguana style ninjutsu.

_And after the above two are over_ Rumiko becomes part of the talks with Hatsumi and has to be told things like the joke.

So, to be able to have helped Hayes to get a complete understanding of what Hatsumi was saying, she would have had to have been there at the first point in the time line. She was there at the third, but not before that it seems. So the amount of information Hayes could have gotten on his limited Japanese was quite limited.

And I think that maybe the stretching of the 'maybes' about things like her being there to translate have gone a little far. Can you show some sort of valid proof to back up the idea that she was there, or are you relying soley on conjecture? We can conjecture and say 'maybe' about a lot of things. Can we show a comment by Hatsumi or something like that that could prove she was there as you want us to believe?


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## Don Roley (Nov 12, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Now I thought this Straight Bladed ninja sword thing had been discussed elsewhere. In Lore of the Shinobi Warrior Book five in the chapter "Myths of Ninjutsu" it clearly states that this idea is a cultural sterotype, and goes on to say where the misinformation possibly comes from. He then goes on to say that in Dr Hatsumis collection the majority of swords do not fall into this catergory. If one views the Stephen K Hayes DVDs one will be hard bushed to find a straight bladed sword, except possibly on the shuriken DVD, but then one can't really tell if the blade is straight as one does not, if I remember correctly, see all the blade. Its probably just a cheap blade that they did not mind damaging considering they were throwing metal shuriken at it.



Wait a minute, are you now trying to say that Hayes had nothing to do with the spreading of that mistaken little story? His early works _clearly_ say that the ninja used straight bladed swords. I am sure someone not on the road can give exact quotes and page numbers. Heck, he even sold a straight bladed bokken through a martial arts' gear company he liscened with. "The Steve Hayes Collection" IIRC.

In this case, it seems that Hayes got his mistaken impressions from theatre. Stage swords are actually wood covered with thin metal for safety. Cheap, low budget productions have been known to not carve the blades but to go with just the straight pieces of wood you can pick up anywhere to arm their many actors at times.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 12, 2005)

Don,
 You won't get a reply from Gary/Gina. HeShe has been banned for continued misuse of multiple accounts and telling us they didn't care if they were banned.


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 12, 2005)

Man, lots of drama overnight. Anyway looks like I was wrong about Don not knowing... Oh, well doesn't really affect my Kamae :uhyeah: !

So where do we go now... back to our dojos or...

:ninja:
FN

p.s. The Bujinkan rules and everyone needs to realize that! Ha Ha Ha:rofl:

I've always wanted to say that!


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## Jonathan Randall (Nov 12, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Don,
> You won't get a reply from Gary/Gina. HeShe has been banned for continued misuse of multiple accounts and telling us they didn't care if they were banned.


 
Thank you. It is hard to trust someone's answers when you cannot trust them...

I'm sure To Shin Do has better representatives out there. Actually, I'm sure they do. I hope that they will come onto this board and represent their art, and themselves, honestly.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 14, 2005)

Okay, here's another data point on the subject of Stephen Hayes deriving the godai concepts from stuff Hatsumi taught him (or not):

Back at the first Tai Kai in San Francisco in 1986, I was a relatively new student of ninpo taijutsu.  Hatsumi was doing a question-and-answer session after the day's training.  I had been writing out possible questions to ask for days.  Finally, I rejected most of them as being too advanced for someone at my level.  I should ask, I decided, about the most basic aspect of training as I knew it at that time.  So when I raised my hand and was called on, I asked Hatsumi-sensei to elaborate on the significance of the godai.  (Not the godai-no-kata, mind you, I was asking about the basic concept of the godai.)  

The translator looked puzzled and conferred with Hatsumi for a moment, then responded: "The significance of the _what?_"  At this point, Jack Hoban leaned over towards Hatsumi and started to explain, "That's just something we came up with over here to ..."  He was immediately cut off by Stephen Hayes, who signalled him to be quiet.   There was a little more discussion with Hatsumi, then the translator came back with the answer, something along the lines of, "Don't worry about it, just keep training."

I always thought it was strange that Steve didn't just take credit for coming up with the godai training concept.  It's an interesting approach, and potentially useful so long as you don't take it too literally.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 14, 2005)

Off topic but are you the same tony from Low tech riff raff?


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## Satt (Nov 14, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Off topic but are you the same tony from Low tech riff raff?


 
Well, if you look at his profile, his website is www.lowtechriffraff.com.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 14, 2005)

Satt said:
			
		

> Well, if you look at his profile, his website is www.lowtechriffraff.com.


 
Clever boy.

I didnt look at his profile.  

Stop being a smartass.

:wink1:


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2005)

> Off topic but are you the same tony from Low tech riff raff?



First time I've been recognized online by my band affiliation.  Yep, that's me.


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## George Kohler (Nov 17, 2005)

What I am about quote is from John Lindsey on E-budo.com and it might have some bearing to this discussion.



> _Originally posted by John Lindsey
> _*Once when I was training with Tanemura Sensei in Japan I asked about one of the kamae from a Gyokko ryu kata and why we were using a specific hand seal. He told me: your thumb is forming a ring with your water finger. The attacker is fire, and you are becoming water to counter him. Since Tanemura  S. was Hayes original teacher, I wonder *


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 17, 2005)

That is fascinating and possibly revealing as well.
Thanks George for your insight.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Senin (Nov 18, 2005)

"Originally posted by John Lindsey
Once when I was training with Tanemura Sensei in Japan I asked about one of the kamae from a Gyokko ryu kata and why we were using a specific hand seal. He told me: ?your thumb is forming a ring with your water finger. The attacker is fire, and you are becoming water to counter him.? Since Tanemura S. was Hayes? original teacher, I wonder?"

Perhaps Mr Tanemura taught Mr Hayes things that Hatsumi was not (and is still not) ready to allow go public (such as other aspects of ninpo, other than just taijutsu).


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 18, 2005)

Obviously he got it from someone who he assumed knew more than him... It would be unethical for him just to make it up.

So "Where?" indeed is the question.

:ninja:
FN


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## Don Roley (Dec 8, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Don,
> You won't get a reply from Gary/Gina. HeShe has been banned for continued misuse of multiple accounts and telling us they didn't care if they were banned.



And it seems he has been sent to e-budo hell for (among other things) using more than one account name. I am now convinced that he is actively trying to fool people by appearing to be someone else. I think we should be on the look out for maybe another appearance by him.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 8, 2005)

Senin said:
			
		

> Perhaps Mr Tanemura taught Mr Hayes things that Hatsumi was not (and is still not) ready to allow go public (such as other aspects of ninpo, other than just taijutsu).


 
I was at a seminar last weekend in which we did what seems to be very much like the technique mentioned above, albeit with an even more extensive explanation (such as the "prayer position" of kongo gassho no kamae, in which you're praying that the situation you're training to handle will never happen for real).


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## Arachne (Jan 23, 2007)

It's sad to hear such a Sensei has been banned from a forum!

As a student, I find Gary is a *proficient* Sensei, *enlightens* students with humour and *encourages* them to develop their own style of fighting. Not only does he have the respect of many students and other excellent people like himself, but he also holds a 1st degree black belt in To-shindo. He is an excellent teacher and is travelling with Stephen K Hayes this year. I believe he is having the opportunity to try on authentic Ninja armour. I am sure if he is kind enough, we might have the opportunity to see pictures of something truly genuine.

&#8220;Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." 
*-- Albert Einstein
*

Alex

http://arachne24585.spaces.live.com - Msn Space
www.globalcrystals.com/forum - Forum
www.naturalwiki.com - Intuitipedia


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## Kreth (Jan 23, 2007)

Arachne said:


> It's sad to hear such a Sensei has been banned from a forum!


We're not too broken up over it. He couldn't play by the rules.


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## Arachne (Jan 23, 2007)

"We're not too broken up over it."

Who's "We" ?


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## Kreth (Jan 23, 2007)

Arachne said:


> "We're not too broken up over it."
> 
> Who's "We" ?


The forum staff, who made the decision to ban Gary Arthur after he blatantly violated the rules here.


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## Arachne (Jan 23, 2007)

It is Sad to hear that.
But Thankyou for keeping the forum in order.

So where did all this SKH stuff come from?
I would appreciate simplicity.


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## saru1968 (Jan 24, 2007)

Prob best to ask SKH that....

Now, its good you are defending Gary but we are all responsible for our behaviour.

Anyhow its old news now and i hope you've enjoyed your posting flurry to bump all these old threads...

Gaz.


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## SKB (Jan 25, 2007)

Some of you should make time to train with some of the "To-Shin Do" people. The concepts your talking about make more sense when your doing them then talking about them. The really make a lot of sense when you exsperiance them! I happen to be one of the "To-Shin Do" people but in no way do I think I am the one to exsplain the concepts to you guys. I have not been training long enough.


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## Arachne (Jan 28, 2007)

I agree SKB, Gary Arthur told me of this weasel who talked so much behind Stephen K Haye's back, about how he was crap, this and that, talking too much. The kind of thing little girls do in school. 

The day came and Stephen walked in, the fool dropped to the ground sinking and bowed, extending his arm for a shake.. almost kissing his feet like a filthy rat. 

Just an example of people with big mouths, but when it actually comes down to it.. :whip1: 


"The fool *doth think he is wise*, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool." William Shakespeare


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## Don Roley (Jan 29, 2007)

Arachne said:


> I agree SKB, Gary Arthur told me of this weasel who talked so much behind Stephen K Haye's back, about how he was crap, this and that, talking too much. The kind of thing little girls do in school.
> 
> The day came and Stephen walked in, the fool dropped to the ground sinking and bowed, extending his arm for a shake.. almost kissing his feet like a filthy rat.
> 
> Just an example of people with big mouths, but when it actually comes down to it.. :whip1:



I think you should consider the source, and the irony.

I do believe there is justification to think that the story is at least a little embellished. And when you consider that this is a story told behind someone's back about how _they_ were talking about someone behind someone's back, you kind of have to wonder about the irony.:roflmao:


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## SKB (Jan 29, 2007)

Well since the topic here seems to have been "Where did SKH stuff come from?" I have a question for all of you training in Japan or else where. Do you see the same techniques in the To-Shin Do, stuff you have been exsposed to, as is being taught in Japan? How far away are the things you have seen from what you are being taught. Is it as far away as say........ you wanted to learn how to pitch a baseball and I take you to a bowling alley and teach you to roll a big ball on the floor? Or is the stuff the same stuff presented in a diffrent manner? I am talking about the physical techniques. Is a 'musha dori' (I might of messed up the spelling) diffrent there then what I am learning. In my limited exsperiance, with the different interpertations of ninjutsu, I get the impression the biggest diffrence is the presentation.


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## Arachne (Jan 29, 2007)

Don Roley - 
Is *re*presentation not a matter of *re*construction?  


SKB
I also have very limited experience of To-Shin Do. I have very limited knowledge on this area in general but im learning. My experience so far, is enough to say my Sensei can walk the martial walk & talk the  martial talk. 
[/B]It would be nice if there was other Video's or concrete _observable material_ of the different forms of Ninjutsu. This way we could analyse the differences based on some _raw visual data_.


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## stephen (Jan 29, 2007)

Arachne said:


> Don Roley -
> Is *re*presentation not a matter of *re*construction?
> 
> 
> ...



If you can analyze it with 'raw visual data' it ain't ninjutsu.


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## Arachne (Jan 29, 2007)

Very good point! "Ninjutsu" as a what the word means can't really be spoken in that way. I am at error & thankyou for the correction. 

I was trying to follow on from SKB's point. To put it simply, it would be nice if there was some presentation's of particular martial artist's studying one of the various forms of Ninjutsu. 

This way we could look at differences between those artists presenting those forms & have a wonder/Philosophise about how they might interact with each other. 

Regardless of this, this has deviated significantly from the major question & without further ado..

*Where did the SKH stuff come from?*

This question kind of answers itself dont you think? 

Is it not just a matter of Stephen K Haye's interpreting what he has learnt - in his own way, and creating his own "stuff".


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## Don Roley (Jan 30, 2007)

SKB said:


> I am talking about the physical techniques.



The person who started this thread seeking answers was not.

I dealt with the rest of the matter in my last post in another thread.


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## SKB (Jan 30, 2007)

I was going somewhere with the post, if Mr. Hayes got the physical stuff while in Japan does it not seem natural he might of got some of the other stuff from there as well? In my exsperiance, not just with To-Shin Do, when you are training at some point folks talk. Every instructor I have ever trained with has spoke about not just the physical part of their art during training. Are we to assume this did not happen when "they" were training way back when???????? Did training back then just consist of silently throwing people around? Did no one have a cup of coffee, or I guess tea, and just talk to one another?


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## Don Roley (Jan 30, 2007)

SKB said:


> I was going somewhere with the post, if Mr. Hayes got the physical stuff while in Japan does it not seem natural he might of got some of the other stuff from there as well? In my exsperiance, not just with To-Shin Do, when you are training at some point folks talk. Every instructor I have ever trained with has spoke about not just the physical part of their art during training. Are we to assume this did not happen when "they" were training way back when????????



Talk to the guys I train under here in Japan. They were there when Hayes started training and before. They will tell you that what he says does not come from the Bujinkan.

There is a danger in speculating like you are. You can build great scenarios that sound so great that you don't want to give them up later. Best to just ask the source. I have and Hayes did not get a lot of his stuff from the Bujinkan. In fact, I think he even admitted it in something linked to at the beggining of this thread.


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## lalom (Jan 30, 2007)

Read what those who train in Japan and under Hatsumi Soke.  It is good stuff.  However, if you intend to and have chosen to train in To-Shin Do, your source for material is SKH.  Don't forget that.

Listen to what these guys share.  Their knowledge and experience in taijutsu is priceless.


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## SKB (Jan 31, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> Talk to the guys I train under here in Japan. They were there when Hayes started training and before. They will tell you that what he says does not come from the Bujinkan.
> 
> There is a danger in speculating like you are. You can build great scenarios that sound so great that you don't want to give them up later. Best to just ask the source. I have and Hayes did not get a lot of his stuff from the Bujinkan. In fact, I think he even admitted it in something linked to at the beggining of this thread.


 
Ok I'll bite Mr. Roley......... what do they say about Mr. Hayes? I'll flip back through the thread and see if I can find the link you wrote of.......



> Read what those who train in Japan and under Hatsumi Soke. It is good stuff. However, if you intend to and have chosen to train in To-Shin Do, your source for material is SKH. Don't forget that.
> 
> Listen to what these guys share. Their knowledge and experience in taijutsu is priceless.


 
I am hoping you did not mean my only source is not..... what qualified or something along those lines????? I might be mistaken but doesn't Mr. Hayes have paper work from Japan saying he is qualified to teach???

Either way, does anyone have any web sites I can look at to get other sources of information????


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## lalom (Jan 31, 2007)

SKB I'm sorry I didn't understand the last part of your post.  Please clarify.


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## SKB (Jan 31, 2007)

lalom said:


> SKB I'm sorry I didn't understand the last part of your post. Please clarify.


 
To clarify. I interpreted your statement to mean Mr. Hayes is some how unqualified on the subject of Ninjutsu and since this is my source I am at some sort of loss. Beleive this or not.......... I read other material and train with folks who are not To-Shin Do from time to time. I truely attempt to not limit myself to where my information comes from. It would be narrow minded of me to think I could learn everything I need from one source.


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## lalom (Jan 31, 2007)

SKB said:


> To clarify. I interpreted your statement to mean Mr. Hayes is some how unqualified on the subject of Ninjutsu and since this is my source I am at some sort of loss. Beleive this or not.......... I read other material and train with folks who are not To-Shin Do from time to time. I truely attempt to not limit myself to where my information comes from. It would be narrow minded of me to think I could learn everything I need from one source.


 
Thanks for your clarification.  You indeed did misinterpret my post about An-Shu Hayes.  My comment was to merely point out to you that many who do not train in To-Shin Do will tell you to go to a "source" for REAL taijutsu knowledge.  My point is this: If your desire and choice to train is in in To-Shin Do, then Mr. Hayes IS the source.  He is the founder of our art.  He is the source for To-Shin Do students, period.  Not to say that others in other arts aren't amazing martial artists, but don't allow what others will say to you to deter you from what your heart has chosen to follow.  By all means, learn from other Ninjutsu schools.  They have much to offer and be learned.  Just don't let anyone tell you what you train in is not valueable, less than, or inferior.  Bottom line, it isn't.  It's just diffferent. 

Bujinkan Budo and To-Shin Do are separate arts.  They may look similar to you, but they are not the same.


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## saru1968 (Feb 1, 2007)

SKB said:


> To clarify. I interpreted your statement to mean Mr. Hayes is some how unqualified on the subject of Ninjutsu and since this is my source I am at some sort of loss. Beleive this or not.......... I read other material and train with folks who are not To-Shin Do from time to time. I truely attempt to not limit myself to where my information comes from. It would be narrow minded of me to think I could learn everything I need from one source.


 

I think the point was made that if your given art is Toshindo then your source for information is Stephen K Hayes.

Gaz.


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