# How important is physical strength?



## SingingTiger (Mar 9, 2003)

In Ian's thread about his friend who got stomped (I hope he continues to get better, Ian), he said this:



> *I think he thinks that because he's so small he'll be no good at it, but I've tried to convince him otherwise.*



That reminded me of a question I've been thinking of for a while:  how important is physical strength when it comes to Kenpo effectiveness?  Not important at all?  Somewhat important?  Critical?

There's a little bit of strength training in the workouts at my school, but it's more of a "conditioning" thing than an attempt to actually build a lot of muscle mass.  I see a lot of posters here who mention working out with weights many times a week.  I lift weights, but only occasionally, and I'm not very strong; I just thought I'd get some opinions on whether or not that will negatively affect my effectiveness as I learn more Kenpo.

Thanks,
Rich


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## pesilat (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SingingTiger _
> *That reminded me of a question I've been thinking of for a while:  how important is physical strength when it comes to Kenpo effectiveness?  Not important at all?  Somewhat important?  Critical?*



Physical strength is just a tool, like any other. Don't get too reliant on any one tool because, eventually, all tools will fail (either through deterioration or because of situational factors).

In my estimation, though, the most important tool is timing. Tying for second would be body mechanics and relaxation. These form the foundation that make everything else work; they're like the undercarriage of a car. The engine provides power and speed, the wheels provide mobility, the body provides defenses, the windows provide awareness. If any of the other aspects fail, other aspects can be there to pick up the slack; if your strength fails, your speed or mobility may be able to pick up the slack. But if the undercarriage fails, the car won't go. If your timing fails, you're pretty much hosed. If you get too tense or have poor body mechanics, then everything else better be in absolute top form for you to have any chance.

And, of course, always watch for ice on bridges  Luck is always a factor in a fight.

Mike


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## MountainSage (Mar 9, 2003)

pesalit,
I will agree with your post to a point.  All the attributes you stated are important, but physical strength hold a high position than you give it.  This is because physcial strength allow you to make small mistake and live to tell about them.  Strength and durablity can compensate for timing, but not totally.  Further, particular skills are more important in particular arts, example balance is more critical in judo than a pure striking art and it dependant on the persons physcial size, I am large and strong, so timing isn't as important a balance and relaxing, a smallere person timing would be important.  Bottomline is that being balance in all skill is the most important.

Mountain Sage


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## True2Kenpo (Mar 9, 2003)

SingingTiger and other fellow Kenpoists,

I believe you have brought up a very interesting question.  Recently, I have been instructing a weekly self-defense course at a local fitness facility and after much thought I feel that physical condition is definitely going to either help or harm you.

An interesting note is in Mr. Parker's volume 5 of Infinite Insights, he lists 12 priorities in self-defense techniques and the last priority is "Physical and Mental Conditioning."  I might be in the wrong, but this meant to me that your physical condition is really going to matter.  Some people might be limited as far as what they can do.  It can only benefit you if you are in better physical condition...  you can generate more power, last longer, and it might be the one thing that will help you overcome your assailant.

Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## satans.barber (Mar 9, 2003)

If you really want to take someone down, it's going to be about hitting the right spots, and usuall they're not the sorts of places that need hitting hard to get good results.

Throaght, sternum, groin, kidneys and knees (as well as more serious targets such as eyes) are all excellent targets that people with little strength can strike effectively, there's really no need to come in with a big knockout punch!

As well as this, kenpo teaches situational awareness, situational management and also frame of mind as well, which are all important tools that might stop being getting into these situations in the first place.

There is a lower limit though, of course some degree of stength is needed to strike all but the softest targets effectively, so I would never go so far as to say that it isn't an issue; just less of an issue than many people imagine.

Ian.


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## Jill666 (Mar 9, 2003)

In the sense of gathering all the tools you can to ensure survival, I think it's important to develop some physical strength. Also flexibility, stamina, confidence, and a strong spirit. 

In many arts (and often in Kenpo) I see big guys. In fact, the default body type seems to be: male, 5'8"- 6'2", 180-240 pounds. Muscular or heavy or some of both. I know one guy who is so strong he could probably bench my car, but has zero flexibility. I also know a 5'10" guy who's 300 lbs- and he is FAST and flexible, but has zero endurance. 

Personally, at my size I NEED some strength training to increase my odds at surviving an attack. Absolutely. But my brain is still the best weapon I can have. Knowlege, experience, common sense, confidence. I try to bring them with me when I go out.


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## Greggers69 (Mar 9, 2003)

The way I understand it's not the strength.  It is more of the marriage between speed, gravity, and torque.  The marriage of the three can make the smallest person into a fairly powerful person.  ANd of course I think kenpo is perfect for smaller people.


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## Old Warrior (Mar 9, 2003)

I believe that strength is more important in a confrontation where less than lethal force is called for, unless you are skilled in arts that rely on holds, throws and chokes.  Strength gives you an alternative.

When my karate skills were at their peak I was deadly, but in a "horsing around" mode - I was useless.  What is one going to do, break your brother in law's nose, ear drums or arm to stop him from wrestling you to the ground.  That was a choice I faced about 15 years ago on my birthday.  I love my brother in law and we had been drinking and he decided I'd look better without my bathing suit.  He is strong, works out and has unbelievable stamina.  All I could do was severely hurt him; which was never going to happen.  So my suit wound up in a tree.

Unless you are proficient in those arts that focus on less than lethal force you only have one mode - do serious harm.  Anything less and you are a danger to yourself.


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## roryneil (Mar 9, 2003)

It seems that speed is more important than strength, but when I look at all the "big guys" in the kenpo world (i.e. the high-ranking old-school BB's) they are all very LARGE (you know who you are!). I am 5'6" and weigh about 140 and I feel very confident about my techniqes and so forth, but then I stand opposite some 300 pounder and I'm like "give me a break". Talk about back-up mass!


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## Kirk (Mar 9, 2003)

They're not ALL large (the seniors).  I'm a 300 pounder, working
becoming less.  The instructors in my school are all just under 6',
and I'd say about 165, average weight.  They throw me around
like rag dolls!!  I have no trouble in admitting they could royally
kick my butt.  But take another average student, say of their 
weight and height .. and they don't have to work quite so hard to
do the same thing to them. 

On the opposite extreme, I've worked with some people that are
90 lbs soaking wet, and when the two extremes meet (of 
beginner and intermediate levels) size AND strength do come into
play.  The lesson I learned from it all is, play to your strengths!  I
can't move as fast as some "weaker" students.

So in short, I think it's a factor, but it's not a dominating factor, 
nor a main factor.


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## RCastillo (Mar 10, 2003)

Since I'm 5'5, it makes a great difference for me when young pups get the idea that they can take me. I've lost a step, or two, so that serves as my back up. Since I teach in a High School, it's a nice deterent, and elsewhere.:asian:


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## lonekimono (Mar 10, 2003)

strength? boy it's good to have off at work so i can look at all these things today ,look if you have a problem with someone and you can't talk your way out of it?
don't worry what tecq you should use? and don't worry about the ideal phaze(hope i spelled that right?) do (if you guys do this yet)
go to the  WHAT IF,  and if you don't know what i'm saying?
than put your finger in his eye,
now i ask you how much strength will that take??
you do the math.
                                yours in kenpo


                                 :asian:


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## brianhunter (Mar 10, 2003)

*POKE* Captain Insano shows no mercy
-Bobby Bouche Waterboy-


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## RCastillo (Mar 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *strength? boy it's good to have off at work so i can look at all these things today ,look if you have a problem with someone and you can't talk your way out of it?
> don't worry what tecq you should use? and don't worry about the ideal phaze(hope i spelled that right?) do (if you guys do this yet)
> go to the  WHAT IF,  and if you don't know what i'm saying?
> ...



That's jus it, I'm terrible at math!:rofl:


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## jeffkyle (Mar 10, 2003)

2 & 2 = 22  :rofl:


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## Jill666 (Mar 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *2 & 2 = 22  :rofl: *



Yup, you study Kenpo! Hahahaha!  

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Mar 10, 2003)

Why lose any advantage possible if you are training for life? Strength, like anything else is but one component; Why give any advantage to an adversary?

I am not saying to be a bodybuilder, and yes, I have had students that a strong wind would make them fly sideways like a flag; but strength training (not to be confused with bulking up) is an important part of the complete warrior. It offers me the opportunity to utilize options not otherwise available, I am thinking specifically of some contact manipulations, controls, and immobilizations. Now I have sparred with others much stronger than me, larger, less body fat, etc., and come out ok, but that is because of the other "components" that are also trained, and the knowledge of how to use them.

Respectfully,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 10, 2003)

I spend an awful lot of time devoted to physical fitness. Today I ran 3.2 miles on the treadmill then biked 10.1 on a stationary bike. Lifting weights is an important aspect of my life as well. I'm trying to rehab some ribs and when it comes to chest day it makes me feel soooo much better. Anyway lifting weights and cardio I think are important as a martial artist. Just my opinion.:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 10, 2003)

I'd have to say that strength is a tremendous asset.  It's easier for a big guy to throw his weight around and make something happen than it is for someone else to try and set up a throw or strike.  

I'm about average size 5'9" 175 lbs.  I've been busting my butt at the gym lifting like a mad man, and I can't gain any weight.  Fortunately though I've gotten a lot stronger and as those things go, a lot more confident in my kenpo.  It's always better to have more resources than you need, than not have enough when you really need it.  That goes for everything from strength, to cardio, to time, and finances (don't ya just love how martial principles can influence your daily life).  

Anyway, I think that strength is important but stamina is crucial.  If you have no cardio and you get put in a stressful situation you are going to fatigue faster than you would otherwise.    Look at it this way, if you're gasping for air after running through a technique line a couple of times or sparring a single 2 minute round (no matter how vigourous), then you should probably work to increase your aerobic and anaerobic capacities.

Strength training is important but I think many overlook the cardio conditioning aspects of their workout routine.

Just my thoughts.


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## KenpoDave (Mar 10, 2003)

All else being equal, the stronger, faster guy wins.


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## Kirk (Mar 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDave _
> *All else being equal, the stronger, faster guy wins. *



What about all else being equal, but one is faster, and the other
is stronger?


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## Iron Dog (Mar 10, 2003)

There are seven components of "Power" 1. Balance 2. Endurance 
3. Flexibility 4. Speed 5. Focus 6. Strength 7. Simplicity. As you see strength in down the list. It is there not because it's not important, it's down the list because to be successful in any athletic endeavor, and that's what self defense is, these components must be cohesive to be viable. (From Sensei Steven Labounty at a seminar hosted by Rick Fowler in Dallas Texas, taken from borrowed notes). I'm an avid weight trainer, not a body builder, and the confidence that doing the iron, cardio and hands on gives me, is immeasurable. Some good responces on this one...
Iron Dog


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## SingingTiger (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Iron Dog _
> *Some good responces on this one...
> Iron Dog *



I couldn't agree more.  Thanks everyone!

Rich


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 11, 2003)

> All else being equal, the stronger, faster guy wins



You think?!?!?  Besides, what exactly is equal if the guy is stronger and faster?

The problem is that most "Martial Artists" don't train anywhere except the dojo or school or whatever you want to call it.  The ones who are in combat arts (BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, etc.) spend a great deal of time working on both strength and cardio training.  Most Kenpo guys don't like the comparison of these styles to kenpo.  They say that their rules wouldn't work on the street.  Since when does kenpo have the market cornered when it comes to fighting dirty.  The point is that these particular arts encourage (and quite frankly expect) serious physical training along with their knowledge based training.  It makes sense and gives you a decent breakdown of what an good fighter should look like.  I think kenpo incorporates the best scientific understanding into it's techs, but that only works if you can move the knowledge from your brain out to the edge of a hand or foot. 

I look at it like this: 

     1/4  of your ability is from knowledge training (i.e. in the dojo)
     1/4  of your ability is from experience  (real experience)
     1/4  of your ability is in your muscular strength 
  + 1/4  of your ability is in your physical endurance (cardio)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
     4/4  a complete fighter

A large percentage of people in the MA's have no experience or are gaining experience as they study.  So if you rely completely on your strength and YOUR learned understanding (not experience) then you've got a 50%-50% shot.  I don't know about you, but that's not good enough for me.  That's why I'm trying to develop my abilities in each of those areas to the utmost. 

Like I said before these are just my opinions, You don't have to agree just give it some thought


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## pesilat (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *
> I look at it like this:
> 
> ...



I can't agree with this breakdown. I think it should be more like 30% from training, 50% from experience, 10% from muscular strength, and 10% from endurance.

The reason for this is that muscular strength and endurance will fade over time. I know, there are people who are in their 60's, 70's, 80's, and even 90's who are incredibly fit and strong. But all of them that I've met tell me, "You shoulda seen me [insert number greater than 20] years ago!" This leads me to believe that they have (or at least feel that they have) lost something.

Some people, and I'm a case in point, are now in better shape than they've ever been previously. At 31, I'm trimmer, stronger, and have better endurance (as far as physical exercise) than I've ever had in my life. Period. But I still don't heal as fast as I used to. I can't go 30, 40, 50+ hours without sleep (used to do that pretty commonly). I have to *work* to keep things limber and they still pop and groan on occasion.

Strength and endurance will degenerate with age and there's nothing we can do to stop it (we can slow the process down, of course, but it will happen regardless). Consequently, they're not things we should rely on. What we should rely on is our training and experience; which only increase with age.

Mike


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## brianhunter (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *
> 
> I look at it like this:
> ...



What about guts?? I don't know if you can train for that. Maybe it falls under experience, But I think guts plays a bigger factor then it is being given credit for.
And adreniline is something that can severly alter the strength factor when the el toro poo poo hits the oscalating wind device!
I really think sometimes it comes down to "who wanted it more" not just how strong the guy is or isnt.


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## pesilat (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *What about guts?? I don't know if you can train for that. Maybe it falls under experience, But I think guts plays a bigger factor then it is being given credit for.
> And adreniline is something that can severly alter the strength factor when the el toro poo poo hits the oscalating wind device!
> I really think sometimes it comes down to "who wanted it more" not just how strong the guy is or isnt. *



Absolutely. But to me, that kind of falls outside of this equation. I don't know that attitude can be trained and I don't think experience can give it to you. I think it's something you have or don't have. Though training/experience may draw it out of you from where it was previously hidden. I think it's more of an attribute like height. You have it or you don't. Either way, you have to learn (which falls under the training/experience) how to use it like any other tool, or, if you don't have it, you have to learn ways to deal with not having it.

I put more on experience because training is academic. It's like college courses. College courses can help prepare you, intellectually, for the real world. But it's not the equal of real world experience.

Mike


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## SRyuFighter (Mar 11, 2003)

It's important to be strong enough to inleast hurt someone. If you can't hurt anyone no matter where u hit them then u need help. But strength is not everything.


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## pesilat (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *It's important to be strong enough to inleast hurt someone. If you can't hurt anyone no matter where u hit them then u need help. But strength is not everything. *



Proper target selection and accuracy can help that. It doesn't take much to dislocate a knee. I've read everything from 3 pounds PSI (if well-placed) to 20 pounds PSI. Even 20 PSI doesn't require a great deal of strength, just accuracy and committed intent. Same with elbows. It takes less than that to poke an eye (as someone else already mentioned in this thread). If you catch a finger, it can de dislocated with just a little pressure on the right line. A slap to the ear doesn't take much strength but can screw with someone's balance and may rupture their eardrum.

It doesn't take a lot of strength to hurt someone. Just some well placed mass with some decent body mechanics - and everyone has mass.

The real root of physical power doesn't come from muscular strength. It comes from relaxation and body mechanics. Add accuracy and intent and you've got a strike that can inflict a lot of damage, even if thrown by a 98 pound "weakling."

If you've got strength to add to it, great! So much the better. But strength, in my opinion, is icing on the cake and, because of its inherent tendency to fade over time, not something to be relied on.

Mike


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## RCastillo (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I spend an awful lot of time devoted to physical fitness. Today I ran 3.2 miles on the treadmill then biked 10.1 on a stationary bike. Lifting weights is an important aspect of my life as well. I'm trying to rehab some ribs and when it comes to chest day it makes me feel soooo much better. Anyway lifting weights and cardio I think are important as a martial artist. Just my opinion.:asian: *



Yeah, your gonna have to rehab those ribs more when I get through with them!:boxing: 

And quit stealing my Workout tips!


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Yeah, your gonna have to rehab those ribs more when I get through with them!:boxing: *



I'll let everyone on this forum know that I pulled my ribs from my sternum grappling a grappler!!! My mind will not change on this subject about grappling. :asian: After 6 yrs. of wrestling Jr. high, and then high school. Wrestling all over the state of ohio and top athletes, 2nd black in a TKD/Aikido mixed art, also a 1st black in kenpo at the time STILL did not prepare me enough to grapple a grapplers game. :asian: 

OR maybe it's because of my friends ability as a multiple JJ world champion as well as a handful of his students are ranked as world champions that they are just that good and I was out of my league. 




> And quit stealing my Workout tips!



I thought that you were stealing my tips pal!


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## KanoLives (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Proper target selection and accuracy can help that. It doesn't take much to dislocate a knee. I've read everything from 3 pounds PSI (if well-placed) to 20 pounds PSI. Even 20 PSI doesn't require a great deal of strength, just accuracy and committed intent. Same with elbows. It takes less than that to poke an eye (as someone else already mentioned in this thread). If you catch a finger, it can de dislocated with just a little pressure on the right line. A slap to the ear doesn't take much strength but can screw with someone's balance and may rupture their eardrum.
> 
> It doesn't take a lot of strength to hurt someone. Just some well placed mass with some decent body mechanics - and everyone has mass.
> ...



I have to agree with this. Well said.


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## RCastillo (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I'll let everyone on this forum know that I pulled my ribs from my sternum grappling a grappler!!! My mind will not change on this subject about grappling. :asian: After 6 yrs. of wrestling Jr. high, and then high school. Wrestling all over the state of ohio and top athletes, 2nd black in a TKD/Aikido mixed art, also a 1st black in kenpo at the time STILL did not prepare me enough to grapple a grapplers game. :asian:
> 
> OR maybe it's because of my friends ability as a multiple JJ world champion as well as a handful of his students are ranked as world champions that they are just that good and I was out of my league.
> ...



Rest, while you still can!


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## MountainSage (Mar 12, 2003)

jfarnsworth you are so right.  I also returned to my grappling root resently and found that two years of TKD has do very little for me in the conditioning and strength field.  If you can't grapple, you are in deep trouble.  The MA on TV is not reality and the tournament sparring only works under very specific rules that allow a specific style to win.  If you want to be strong, grab a wrestler and hang on.

Mountain Sage


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## lonekimono (Mar 12, 2003)

Look if you want to learn how to fight while you are on the ground(i hope you never fine yourself there) LEARN KENPO






         you do the math
                                            yours in kenpo


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## Michael Billings (Mar 12, 2003)

... as said before; in a real fight could you have hurt him Jason?  Fingers actually blinding him, crushing testicles, or larynx?  

It is fun to challenge ourselves mano y mano, but is it worth the type of injury you sustained?  I assume this was a "friendly" bout?  And you still want to be able to meet a grappler on his own ground, (pun intended) probably because of your grappling skill set.  I have no such illusions.  I don't want to out wrestle him; I want to SURVIVE him and HURT him as quick as I can with the minimal amount of damage done to myself.  I blew out a knee trying to out wrestle a University of Texas wrestling team guy.  My lesson was learned the hard way.  I have had to grapple since then, and learned from it that I don't want to be there ... and what I can do not to be.

You can assert all day long you need to learn BJJ or some other grappling art, Chin Na, Sao Jow, etc., but at the heart of this is wanting to "beat" someone on their own ground.  Which is fine if you are ok with the inherent risk of training for this.  It is ok to play with this idea but I encourage everyone to explore Kenpo Theories, Concepts, and Principles in this context.  Unless you just enjoy pain, and a very high risk of injury, then BJJ is what it is.  I never saw a class where something was not taped, broken, torn, dislocated, cut or  scraped due to injuries.

Choose, but choose wisely.

-Michael   Kenpo-Texas.com


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## pesilat (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... as said before; in a real fight could you have hurt him Jason?  Fingers actually blinding him, crushing testicles, or larynx?
> 
> It is fun to challenge ourselves mano y mano, but is it worth the type of injury you sustained?  I assume this was a "friendly" bout?  And you still want to be able to meet a grappler on his own ground, (pun intended) probably because of your grappling skill set.  I have no such illusions.  I don't want to out wrestle him; I want to SURVIVE him and HURT him as quick as I can with the minimal amount of damage done to myself.  I blew out a knee trying to out wrestle a University of Texas wrestling team guy.  My lesson was learned the hard way.  I have had to grapple since then, and learned from it that I don't want to be there ... and what I can do not to be.
> ...



Training safely is always a priority in my book. I don't think groundfighting has to be inherently dangerous (except for abrasions, but they're not injuries). To me an "injury" is something that inhibits my training or my day-to-day function. Anything else is just pain and pain is fleeting.

I'm not a big fan of groundfighting. If I can avoid going there, I will. Period. But, there are no guarantees in a fight. All sorts of things can happen that will mean I have to fight on the ground. This is especially true here in Louisville where the winters tend to be white and icy. Get in a fight in the winter and you're almost guaranteed to be on the ground. Same in spring when it's muddy. But even outside of these things, I may trip over an obstacle or just flat-out get knocked down.

For these reasons I think it's important to be competent on the ground.



> *You can assert all day long you need to learn BJJ or some other grappling art, Chin Na, Sao Jow, etc., but at the heart of this is wanting to "beat" someone on their own ground.*



Nope. That's not the only reason (though, admittedly, it is the primary reason for many people). My groundfighting game, for instance, isn't geared toward "beating" someone on the ground. If I can finish the fight there I will, of course. But my ground game is geared toward getting back up ASAP and in one piece.

I've not had any extensive training in groundwork (the most extensive I've had is Harimau Silat and it's a pretty different beast than what most people in America think of when they think groundfighting [which, these days, tends to mean BJJ]). But I am competent on the ground and feel that it's important to be so.

When I have the chance to work (train or spar) with groundfighters, I take it. Because the best way to learn to defend against something (anything) is to understand it; to understand its strengths and weaknesses. So, in learning to deal with groundfighters, it's a good idea to work out with groundfighters. Even if my intent has nothing to do with groundfighting, per se.



> *... as said before; in a real fight could you have hurt him Jason?  Fingers actually blinding him, crushing testicles, or larynx?  *



Very good point. But something to consider is, if you're fighting (which is what you're talking about) then your opponent has all those options, too. If the guy has trained purely for competition then you'll have an advantage. Otherwise, if you end up on the ground, he'll have the advantage and be able to use all that stuff against you just as easily as you can use it against him.

I personally think it pays to be well-rounded. I don't feel the need to try to be a specialist in everything. I've got a few specialties. Groundfighting is certainly not among them. But I keep my groundfighting at a basic level of proficiency so that, if I hit the ground, I'm not completely clueless.

Having said all that, do I think it's necessary to train in a "groundfighting" system (such as BJJ) in order to gain this proficiency. No. In fact, if you're imaginative and experiment, you can learn to apply all your standup game to the ground. And, largely, this is what I personally do. But I find that, when I have a chance to work with a specialist, it really helps my understanding of the game which, in turn, helps my ability to cope with others who try to take the situation to that place.

Mike


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 12, 2003)

I still join his class from time to time as I thoroughly enjoy the grappling game. My ribs will proably always be the same from here on out and that's fine I accept it 'cause that's what happened. The person I was grappling didn't set forth to mess me up. We were training and it is just an accident that happened. My instructor friend asks me to come in and join his crew and I accept knowing the risks that could be involved. He had a horrible accident happen in his class a yr. ago and yet it still wouldn't stop me from training with him. We all know the risks taken even just getting out of bed in the morning. 
My passion for ground fighting is still there and probably always will be. Yesterday I went to the H.S. I graduated from for a boy scout meeting. For a moment I went to the wall of the all ohio people to see that my picture wasn't up there with the rest of the wrestlers(even the ones I grad. with).  Before 'ya roll your eyes I never made it to the state tournament. However as I've stated before there were many state placers I beat in other tournaments, state qualifiers, and even was extremely close in a tight match with the state champ that won the same year. My point being is that I never had that extra little "luck" needed to get to the big tourney. Back on track. This is where my passion for the ground fighting started. Luck and chance is what we take everyday in every aspect of life. From walking to running to jumping. In a car, plane, or train. Anything can happen to anyone of us at any time.:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... as said before; in a real fight could you have hurt him Jason?  Fingers actually blinding him, crushing testicles, or larynx?  [/URL] *



Oh most definately. 




> You can assert all day long you need to learn BJJ or some other grappling art, Chin Na, Sao Jow, etc., but at the heart of this is wanting to "beat" someone on their own ground.



I would just like to survive with as many tools as possible.:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Mar 12, 2003)

I am not unaware of any of the points made by either of you.

I love Silat and have done some BJJ, but still think that "my game", which I never would call it, is going to be Kenpo related ground work, and still more of a striking art. I love Wally Jay's Small Circle work and have gained some proficiency in that before moving into more contact manipulations / controls / immobilizations that are found within the Kenpo system itself. I am comfortable on the ground, but do not train there nearly as often as I did a decade ago. 

I think my point, if I had one, is that focusing on Kenpo is a full time job for me now days, and I have still only scratched the surface. I "Play" with ground fighters also and they are usually surprised by my responses, because they do not fall within the paradigm they are expecting.

The street is the street. Anything goes, both ways. Hopefully those that train for trouble are better at avoiding it, than those who are looking for trouble. But when the rubber meets the road all the stops come out and I am committed to my own survival, as I have no doubt you both are.

My experience with the injuries is a personal one, from several MMA or BJJ schools that focus on the ground game. Not to mention my own personal injuries, my students, etc., etc. It is still higher risk for a number of reasons that are self-evident. Primarily, you are taking a joint into the pain threshold, or past it's maximum range of motion, to get to the pain threshold.  It takes a lot of training in sensitivity not to pass this point and injure. The second point is that I have seen guys choked out because they would not tap out ... not in competition, but because they were trying to be tough, well they were.  Third, when adrenaline is up it is easy to sustain injuries you are not aware of; this is ok in a fight (hopefully you do not get in lots of fights in the real world.) My final point, the last one I will point out for now, is that a lot of times the injuries I see are not from an opponent, but something you did to yourself, jammed or broken fingers being a big one. 

There are lots of things we can do to minimize injuries, and should do. But in my experience STUFF HAPPENS, you get into it and nobody is intentionally hurt, but I still see a class full of tape. Abrasions don't count. I just added them cuz they were there. 

This was meant more as an observation rather than a retort to your position and opinion.  I want to encourage others to explore the Principles, Concepts and Theories within their own Core Art prior to branching out.  Nothing is wrong with challenging ourselves and learning from where ever we can once we reach a certain level of proficiency and our instructors concur.

I don't mean any disrespect to either of you, not at all. It is just that a "newby" seeing a statement like "learn a ground game" well may go out and try to, ending up hurting themselves prior to establishing or exploring their own system.  

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I don't mean any disrespect to either of you, not at all. It is just that a "newby" seeing a statement like "learn a ground game" well may go out and try to, ending up hurting themselves prior to establishing or exploring their own system. *



Your point of view is understood sir! :asian:  Great post.


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## pesilat (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I am not unaware of any of the points made by either of you.
> 
> etc. [deleted for brevity]*



Well said, sir. And I think we're on the same page 

Mike


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 12, 2003)

Strength obviously helps, but explosive power and speed are more condusive to kenpo practioners. i.e.: If I can hit you three times with half the strength you have in the time it would take you to hit me once, who's more effective?

Plus, where and what type of strike should also be considered...:asian:


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## Kenpo_Norm (Mar 18, 2003)

I was originally taught that strength was not important. However experience has taught me otherwise. All things being equal, the stronger person has the advantage. Note, I stated all things being equal. There are probably an infinite number of variables that could be argued.


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## Kenpomachine (Mar 19, 2003)

Being thin and a light weight (under 60 kg for 1,73 cm), accuracy is more important for me. 
Don't get me wrong though, I would train also for increasing strenght in many ways, if doing kenpo through proper body alignment and mechanics and speed, and outside kenpo mainly with dumbbells and physical conditioning (push ups, running uphill and the likes).


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Rest, while you still can! *



No rest for the weary! I keep going, whether on the mat or in the weight room.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 19, 2003)

What did your training partner do to pull your ribs apart?

At one time I was studying BJJ with a buddy of mine, but since I'm doing Systema (and kenpo) that's the only ground work I do now. Went to a Martin Wheeler seminar this past weekend and he showed some ground work that was sooooo cool and soooo simple it was amazing and fun. But, Systema doesn't teach ground work for sport so it's a more dealing with getting away from grappling and wrestling with the attacker and being able to get away. 

As for strength training, you should do some kind of it be it push ups weights or machines just to help prevent injuries to yourself.

 


Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 19, 2003)

A throw that went wrong. The partner was probably a little too big. He didn't roll properly off of my shoulders. Maybe he should have had a little more experience, maybe I should have picked a smaller partner. He landed on the back of my rib cage from behind and pinned my right shoulder to the mat then fell on the back of my right side. Since I couldn't move anywhere the first 4 ribs seperated from my sternum. They didn't draw back into the sternum. So now I get to hit the weights to strength the muscle strands around them. This hasn't really slowed down my sparring that I've noticed but you can never tell for sure.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 19, 2003)

Sounds painful though  I once had the cartlidge in the ribs on my left side seperated from a side kick. Didn't hurt too bad at the time, but later it felt like I was having a heart attack. It hurt real bad to breathe.


 


Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## Kalicombat (Mar 20, 2003)

Ive read this thread since it started and just now decided to add my two cents. First, physical strength in anything is more advantageous then weakness. A person does not have to be strong to be effective, but being strong  will only increase ones effectiveness. I know some seriously strong individuals, national ranked powerlifters, that can not fight to save their life. However, I know some of them that are incredibly dangerous individuals. 

In any sport, be it baseball, football, tennis, etc...., strength enhances performance. This includes martial arts. ALot of people that shy away from weights may say and do say otherwise.  THe properties of physics are not disputable. For example, lets just say that a person that does not lift weights, and only does karate and conditioning generates a hypothetical amount of 150 lbs per square inch at point of impact with a back knuckle.  Then the same hypothetical person lifts weights and increases his or her strength, all the while maintaining the same level of conditioning and skill level with their martial arts, only now they generate 250 pounds per square inch at point of impact with a back knuckle, wont that persons back knuckle strike be more effective??? Of course it will.  

I have heard opponents of weight training in regards to martial arts say that they dont lift weights because they dont want to get "too big" because it will slow them down. First, lifting weights will not slow anyone down, and second, for a beginner to start lifting weights, there is no fear that they will suddenly bulk up to mammoth proportions. I have lifted weights since I was 10 years old, and believe me, it takes alot of incredibly hard work and dedication to look like the freaks in the muscle magazines. Not too mention all of the top bodybuilders in the magazines are so juiced up on steroids that their muscularity is not even possible without the drugs. 

Like I said, lifting weights is not necessary to be effective, but why not hedge your bets and give yourself every possible advantage in case the moment of truth happens?

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist....and powerlfiter.


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *Gary Catherman, Kenpoist....and powerlfiter. *



I agree with your post very much so. I don't have any knock out power or anything however I know I can hit harder after getting back to lifting weights for two years than I did before. As everything else it's just another tool to aid in your goal as becoming a better martial artist.:asian:


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## pesilat (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *Like I said, lifting weights is not necessary to be effective, but why not hedge your bets and give yourself every possible advantage in case the moment of truth happens?
> 
> Gary Catherman, Kenpoist....and powerlfiter. *



Excellent post, and I couldn't agree more.

I, however, don't lift weights. My personal reason is, simply, that it's boring for me. I have no interest in doing it. But, I'm also pretty muscular by nature. I'm sure that weight training would make me more muscular and would help my martial arts some. But, for the past and present, anyway, I have no interest in lifting. That may change in the future. I don't know.

Currently, the only exercises I do aside from my regular training are an ab workout and pushups for pecs. And that's a pretty recent thing. I've been losing weight (intentionally - check http://www.guild-hall.com/diet_pics to see why). And am, generally, more aware of my fitness these days. I've had minor troubles with my lower back for several years. I know that the majority of lower back trouble comes from abs being in poor shape. So that's why I started working my abs. I started working my pecs because I figure if I'm going to lose the gut, I may as well lose the "man tits" too 

But, 5 years ago, if you'd have told me I'd be changing my diet, aware of my fitness, doing ab and pec exercises, I'd have laughed at you. But things change in 5 years. I'm actually more fit now than I've ever been in my life. But I still feel the aches and pains in my joints a little longer than I used to ... and I'm only 31. In another 5 years, I may decide that my muscles need a workout and I'll find the willpower to put up with the boredom I find in weight training.

This is only my persoal issue with weight training, though. I don't advise others not to weight train. In fact, when someone asks me if I think it's a good idea, I say, "Absolutely."

What I've seen (with friends doing it) is that if you're training martial arts regularly while you're weight training, then it's virtually impossible to get so bulky that you lose flexibility.

People who only lift weights and don't do anything else can lose flexibility. Their body only does that one set of motions that's involved in their weight training. So those areas get worked, but the other areas don't get worked. They get "muscle bound" (I know, it's a bit of a misnomer, but it works for the discussion). People who also train in MA (or gymnastics, or Yoga, or whatever), their bodies remain supple while their muscle mass increases because their body doesn't get over specialized in some areas. I'm not sure that was the best way to phrase it, but I think it'll make sense to you folks 

So, my advice to anyone who's interested in weight training but concerned about it affecting their MA: POSH! Keep active and well-rounded in your workouts and you'll never have a problem.

Mike


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## headkick (Mar 20, 2003)

you would be able to bench press your opponent without having lifted regularly  

I think lifting is a good idea.  Particularly compund movements like squats, deadlifts and bench press.  Squats are the single greatest weight lifting movement ever.  It uses many more muscles than just the legs.  If you aren't able to squat with weights, do it without them.  If can develop the leg strength to stand from one leg (sit down, put one leg out straight and stand up on the other one) I do not want to spar you :erg: 

But I would encourage people to do that.  Muscle burns calories so you eat more pizza!  :rofl:


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## Kalicombat (Mar 20, 2003)

Mr. Casto,
   Are those pictures of you?? Great job! I too lost alot of weight, 250 pounds to be exact. I started at 500 and am down to 250. Hopefully some day getting to 220. I did it on a NO CARB diet. It worked for me. Congratulations on the weight loss. 

Gary Catherman.


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## pesilat (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by headkick _
> *you would be able to bench press your opponent without having lifted regularly
> 
> I think lifting is a good idea.  Particularly compund movements like squats, deadlifts and bench press.  Squats are the single greatest weight lifting movement ever.  It uses many more muscles than just the legs.  If you aren't able to squat with weights, do it without them.  If can develop the leg strength to stand from one leg (sit down, put one leg out straight and stand up on the other one) I do not want to spar you :erg:
> ...



The following is a bit of a departure from the core of the thread, but, I think, very relevant.

I would add to this and say that people should get some instruction in proper methods of exercising. It's so easy to do something wrong and injure oneself. Of course, like with the martial arts, an actual trainer is the best solution.

But a lot can be learned about proper exercising via reading or video, too. And take it slow. I've known quite a few people who tried to rush things and got ahead of what their body could handle. Even doing the exercises properly, they injured themselves through overexertion. It has to be built up.

A lot of men think, for instance, that using a 5 pound dumbbell is for sissies. But it's a good place to start. If you get absolutely nothing out of it, then move up to 10. It's not sissy, it's intelligence. Now, granted, a lot of guys can realistically start at a higher weight, but, IMHO, why take chances. If you've never done it before, then the lower weight is a good way to develop the proper form without risking a serious injury if you screw up.

It's analogous, in MA training, to slow-motion training. If I work the focus mitts or bag slowly and with precision, focusing on proper form and accuracy, then the speed and power will develop naturally and I'll end up able to hit much harder, faster, and more accurately than someone who starts working speed and power from the get-go. They end up fast and hard, but with little form or accuracy. So, by taking it slow and easy and building up, I end up hard and fast, and accurate, all with proper body mechanics. So, when moving at full speed/power, I end up using a lot more economy of motion, wasting a lot less energy, hitting my target more often, getting more mass behind my strikes for power. So I end up able to hit faster and harder than the other guy who's still flailing hard and fast.

The weights are the same (I know this from logic and second-hand experience, not first). If you start out light and focus on proper form, then gradually increase the weight/reps, then, in the long run, you'll end up better off. I don't know whether you'll end up stronger or not, but you're almost guaranteed to end up as strong with less damage done to your body along the way.

Mike


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## pesilat (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *Mr. Casto,
> Are those pictures of you?? Great job! *



Yup. They're of me. Thanks 



> *I too lost alot of weight, 250 pounds to be exact. I started at 500 and am down to 250. Hopefully some day getting to 220. I did it on a NO CARB diet. It worked for me. Congratulations on the weight loss.
> 
> Gary Catherman. *



LOL. I love bread _way_ too much to go on a complete no carb diet. But I did cut back on my bread consumption and also found some good alternatives.

_Healthy Life_ has some breads that are low carb and very good. The only one I've tried thus far is their sourdough bread. It's excellent. They also have white and wheat breads, but I haven't tried them yet. They're only 19g of carbohydrates for 2 slices of bread.

If you ever move up to a "low carb" diet, you might consider looking into it. Mix some cinnamon and _Splenda_, _Egg Beaters_, and 1% milk, then make French Toast with that sourdough bread, add a little _Light Maple Syrup_ ... mmmman! It's tasty and still very low carb, low fat, low cal.

But, anyway, I've strayed a little from the topic at hand.

Way to go on your weight loss, though. That's impressive. I'm down to 205 now. My goal is 180. But if I don't get there, oh well. I never really expected to get to 220 so, at this point, I'll be more than happy if I stay below 220. And I don't really think that'll be a problem. At this point, the diet has become a habit. It's no longer a _diet_, it's just the way I eat. So even if I splurge occasionally and have a really decadent desert or something, I won't slip very far because it won't be enough to break my eating habits. I'd have to splurge every day for a month or more to break my habits.

I assume you've noticed this, too. In the first couple of months, I bet you craved bread and pasta all the time, right? But now, you never have more than a passing urge. It becomes habit.

And, to bring this post back a little toward the topic at hand, I'd guess that this same principle could be applied to people who wanted to gain mass for their weight training.

Mike


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## Kalicombat (Mar 20, 2003)

Mr. Casto,
   You're right on all accounts. This is just my lifestyle now, no longer a diet. I couldnt sit down and eat a plate of pasta or a sandwich or eat a donut. It just wouldn't happen. I did crave gnocchi and bread for about three months, but now, I dont even miss them. My kids look at me sometimes when Im making them fudge or streudel, and they just shake their heads and ask how I can cook all this stuff and not even taste it. My wife asks the same thing. Its just the way it is. I tell them that I doubt all the workers at the Jack Daniels Distillery sit around drinkin Jack Daniels all day. 

Gary C.


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## Elfan (Mar 20, 2003)

Go to a gym, see all those 20ish testoserone pumped men/teenagers?  They are all *trying* to "get huge" and arn't, I seriosly doubt you are going to get "too big" by accident.  And if you somehow manage to get too big all you have to do is lay off the weight lifting for a while and you will be all set.


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## stacks (Mar 23, 2003)

physical strength is important in the gym for pushing and pulling objects. however striking key targets is not always about power but also about speed and accuarcy. the youngs guys have speed and to some extent endurance, but the seasoned martial artist has patience and timing. you do not want to be too big because you will move slower and your body is heavier. you want to keep the body lean and in great cardio condition other wise you will run out of steam too soon. do not waste time on hitting a target that is not there (i.e. to far away) let your attacker close the gap first and when he leaves an opening react to it 

stacks :armed:


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## Robbo (Mar 23, 2003)

> For example, lets just say that a person that does not lift weights, and only does karate and conditioning generates a hypothetical amount of 150 lbs per square inch at point of impact with a back knuckle. Then the same hypothetical person lifts weights and increases his or her strength, all the while maintaining the same level of conditioning and skill level with their martial arts, only now they generate 250 pounds per square inch at point of impact with a back knuckle, wont that persons back knuckle strike be more effective??? Of course it will.



Depends on what your target is. If the back knuckle strike is to the bridge of the nose how much force do you need to break the nose, cause the eyes to water, etc.

I take this viewpoint as a scrawny 140 lb practioner that would rather work on accuracy and timing than 'pumping iron'.

I think that it also depends on your art. I don't think strength is as much of an advantage in Kenpo as it would be in a grappling art.

Rob


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2003)

But having massive strength doesn't necessarily accent any Art. Rather, being in top physical and mental "condition" (average strength per your body style and an exceptional arsenal of knowledge and skill on how to use what you have) is paramount

:asian:


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