# Was this self-defense?



## SamT (Oct 3, 2008)

The following was posted at a forum I go to. I've done the liberty of censoring profanity. Key parts bolded.



> Today I was driving in Manhattan, yep worse place to drive!! I'm stuck in freaking traffic, cause this Taxi guy stops in the dang middle of the street. Just double parked which is illegal. So I keep blowing my horn and he still doesn't go. So one of these pedestrians this tall guy tells me to stop which is none of his business. I still continue and he takes his fist and bangs on my window. *I roll down my window and told him to shut the **** up so he reached in and punch my jaw and slammed his fist on the hood leaving a minor dent. I get out with my steering wheel club in my hand and repeatdilty bashed his face in and knocked him out with the club till he fell into the street. The police and ambulance arrived and I explained what happened. I never got into any trouble cause he attacked me first and I was defending myself.* Even nearby witnesses agreed to what they saw. *When he banged on my window I let it go. But once he popped me in the jaw it was it.* Anyways I'm filing a lawsuit cause I got minor fractures done to my lower jaw bone after being in the hospital for the past 6 hours. Which is the reason I haven't been on all day. My jaw is in total pain. I know I'm a guy but I'm going to admit I did cry when I got home. I can't eat at all. Everything feels wierd. The doctor told me if he had hit it again he would of knocked it out of place and I would require surgery to fix it. Oh my god I'm going to sue the living hell out of him for my jaw and the dent in my hood. He has money too cause he works for UBS Bank in Manhattan. Anyways I swere I could of killed him but I didn't. I'm a good guy I mind my business and everything. But this guy had no right coming up to my car like that. I don't have a lawyer but my parents do and he was already contacted. I'm going to see how this goes the next few weeks.
> 
> REMEMBER WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND. Watch he does that to the wrong person one day that ain't nice like I am and they will freaking blwo his brains out. People are crazy ya know. I actually feel sorry for him cause no one in this guys dang life ever taught him a lesson not to start trouble with people you don't know.



My reply to this was:



> > When he banged on my window I let it go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



However, IIRC, there are several LEOs on this forum. What do you people think? Was he LEGALLY justified in getting out of his car and proceeding to beat his attacker? Or should he have reported it at the risk of his attacker getting away without being found?


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## thetruth (Oct 3, 2008)

I would say he guy in the car was an impatient tool.  If I punch you in the face and walk off then you get out and smack me with a steering lock then you have just assaulted me more seriously.  The fact the guy hit him once and then hit his car and left suggests the confrontation was over therefore there was no opportunity for self defense just a revenge assault.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## 7starmarc (Oct 3, 2008)

thetruth said:


> I would say he guy in the car was an impatient tool. If I punch you in the face and walk off then you get out and smack me with a steering lock then you have just assaulted me more seriously. The fact the guy hit him once and then hit his car and left suggests the confrontation was over therefore there was no opportunity for self defense just a revenge assault.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
+1

I agree completely. It was over, furthermore, the first person used his fist, then turned away. The driver escalated to using a weapon and prolonged the confrontation by pursuing even though the first withdrew.

No self defense. He still might be able to sue succesfully for bodily injury, etc. The other person, however, may countersue for more (depending on his injuries). I don't think the fact that he retaliated necessarily negates his claim to damages. It may, however, lose him the sympathy of the court.

The first person should have been arrested for assault. The second should have been arrested for aggravated assault/assault with a weapon.

All of this depends on local statutes, so results may vary.


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## shesulsa (Oct 3, 2008)

I call ******** on the whole story.  The person in the car would have been arrested and spent more than 6 hours away from "a forum." 

IF - *IF* - it's true, the guy in the car will suffer far worse consequences.  

Is it self-defense? Prolly not. The dude in the car instigated the physical attack.


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 3, 2008)

First one can use force, or deadly force, to *STOP* an attack. Not kill, not wound, but to stop the attack from continuing.

Most state laws define self defense is where you feel you are in danger of being harmed and have no way to safely retreat from the situation. The danger must be an articulatable danger (that is, one you can verbally define the danger and its not just a hunch.)

Once the danger is passed you cannot retaliate (the attacker runs off) except under certain circumstances as to fleeing felons who have done certain crimes (arson, rape, murder, etc..) and that just depends on the states laws.

BUT, I said most states. Several now have 'castle doctrine' laws where if one invades your house or even car (carjacking) you can automatically presume you are in mortal jeopardy and can use force, or lethal force, to stop them. And some go as far as to give immunity from lawsuits to those you use force or deadly force in stopping them (Texas is one of those states.)

Also, in some of those states, like Texas where I'm at, if you are in a place where it is legal for you to be and you have not provoked the other party, *YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RETREAT*. These are called, 'stand your ground' laws.

Know your states laws well. To not is to end up violating them and finding out what jail is all about (cause ignorance of the law is no excuse.... unless you are a politician.)

Deaf


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## Archangel M (Oct 3, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I call ******** on the whole story. The person in the car would have been arrested and spent more than 6 hours away from "a forum."
> 
> IF - *IF* - it's true, the guy in the car will suffer far worse consequences.
> 
> Is it self-defense? Prolly not. The dude in the car instigated the physical attack.


 
I agree with the first part. As to "instigation", a guy rolling down his window and telling you the STFU isnt reason to get physical. Id lock them both up. The guy with the weapon would get the felony charge.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 3, 2008)

Little while ago I wrote about a guy threatening me while I was still in the car. Had he reached in at any point I'd probably would've tried to trap him using the window and so on... At least when the police arrived they'd see him with his arm in the window knowing he reached in. 

No, the guy getting out of the car after being struck was not in danger anymore (as the guy was no longer assaulting him but hitting the car). The poster could've stayed in the car, called 911 given a description of the guy and have him arrested for assault and provided witnesses,  (if they stuck around), his injury and have the car damage (with the guy's fist print... which they now can match up) as further evidence of the attack. 
Escalation is not self defense. Had the guy been continually assaulted and used the "club" as a means of fighting his assailant off then it's self defense. 
Again and again we've stated defense is to STOP the attack and not go on the offensive once it's been achieved. Knowing when to stop is the key element. IMO

I agree with Shesulsa that the story is sounding a bit too skewed.


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## morph4me (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm having a hard time believing the story. The kid got hit once and then left his vehicle with a weapon and beat his assailant and didn't get arrested? I don't think so, not unless there is a major disparity of force, and even then he had to leave his car and go after the guy, that isn't self defense, that's assault.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 4, 2008)

He went beyond self-defense.....but as to his verbal statements being justification for an assault, it's New York....that's just conversation in New York.


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## jks9199 (Oct 4, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> I agree with the first part. As to "instigation", a guy rolling down his window and telling you the STFU isnt reason to get physical. Id lock them both up. The guy with the weapon would get the felony charge.


That's pretty much how I see it, too.

As I read it, this was the chain of events:
1. Taxi stops in traffic.
2. Mr. Impatient leans on his horn.
3. Mr. Annoyed tells Mr. Impatient to lay off the horn.
4. Mr. Impatient "responds" to Mr. Annoyed.
5. Mr. Annoyed attacks Mr. Impatient.
6. Mr. Impatient grabs a weapon, exits his car, and attacks Mr. Annoyed; it's unclear whether or not the initial assault was still going on from this account.  
7. Cops & medics respond.
(8. Mr. Annoyed gets some time to think about it -- and realizes he's got nothing to lose by calling a lawyer... And lots to gain, even if the insurance companies simply settle.)

Nothing here justified the initial attack -- anymore than the horn was justified.  Nor does anything listed justify escalating the force or, really, even exiting the car.  Me?  I've been obnoxious enough on occasion to tag Mr. Impatient with "improper use of horn" on top of aggravated assault.  He can claim self-defense at court.  And I'd probably hook Mr. Annoyed with simple assault, too.

However, there's a lot that'd depend on some of the details that aren't very clear from what's been given.  You may recall an incident I've described a couple of times that seemed like a clear case of assault... until I sorted some of those details out.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 4, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> That's pretty much how I see it, too.
> 
> As I read it, this was the chain of events:
> 1. Taxi stops in traffic.
> ...



I see it very similarly.  

I also based on the origional poster claiming that he was not arrested am a little leery that this story is bs.  However of course we do not have all the facts.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 4, 2008)

if you don't plan on speeding away, then always be ready to get off the seatbelt and pull the handbrake-ready to get out to confront quickly. 

kindof sucks if you have to get back into a car that's rolling away or stuck because of seatbelt to begin with.  getting punched through an open window or having the unlocked door yanked open-is also an added risk..

nasty move is also to pull the person halfout of the window and beat on them in that position.  so i think a completely open window is a risk too.

j


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## MA-Caver (Oct 4, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I see it very similarly.
> 
> I also based on the origional poster claiming that he was not arrested am a little leery that this story is bs.  However of course we do not have all the facts.


Well then lets vote! All in favor of thinking this story is B.S. raise the flag... :bs:

(I mean c'mon how often do we get to use THIS smilie??) :lol:


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## Archangel M (Oct 4, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> However, there's a lot that'd depend on some of the details that aren't very clear from what's been given. You may recall an incident I've described a couple of times that seemed like a clear case of assault... until I sorted some of those details out.


 
10-4...Ive noticed that when first responding to a call for service I tend to form a basic "framework" of what happened almost immediately from what I see and what people say. Then after more detailed questioning and investigation of the facts see if that framework is supported or is changed...sometimes its way different than what I initially thought, but many times its fairly close.


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## bluekey88 (Oct 4, 2008)

Sounds suspicious to me.  I call shenanigans. 

Peace,
Erik


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## girlbug2 (Oct 4, 2008)

I'm thinking that rolling down the window was a bad idea to begin with. Why give somebody an opening for assault? also it appeared to have allowed Mr Impatient a chance to verbally aggravate Mr Annoyed. Never good.


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## MJS (Oct 4, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I call ******** on the whole story. The person in the car would have been arrested and spent more than 6 hours away from "a forum."
> 
> IF - *IF* - it's true, the guy in the car will suffer far worse consequences.
> 
> Is it self-defense? Prolly not. The dude in the car instigated the physical attack.


 
I second this.  Its hard to sometimes get the point that people are trying to make on the net, but there was just something about this story that doesn't sound right.  Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but the more I read it, the more it sounds made up.

As for the initial question....both parties are wrong IMHO.  First and foremost, people need to mind their own damn business.  Who cares if someone was blowing their horn.  My God, thats all you hear in NYC is horns blowing! LOL!  To bang on the window and the hood...like I said, mind your own business.  As for the guy in the car....his biggest mistake was getting out of the car with a weapon.  Sounds like assault to me.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 5, 2008)

:BSmeter: :bs:


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 5, 2008)

any action that is used to protect yourself fro attack be it verbal, running away, or a defensive action can be considered self defense.  Upon the first attack after the enital avoidence you are now the attacker and no longer protecting your slef

as for the story told  Well  no comment


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