# Teen 'sport killings' of homeless on the rise



## jazkiljok (Feb 20, 2007)

another disturbing piece of news-- teens killing homeless people cause it's fun. at least at the time-- then jail, then realization that it is not a game. 

Seems that a growing portion of teenagers are in sort of self-destruct mode-- strangling each other as a form to get high, hood-surfing driverless cars, diving off roof tops onto piles of wood and junk, and of course walking into their schools with loaded weapons. what's to explain these trends in dangerous stupidity?

dunno.



http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/19/homeless.attacks/index.html


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 20, 2007)

damn.


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## Cruentus (Feb 20, 2007)

We used to strangle each other to make each other "faint" or knocked out. Obviously, not the greatest of ideas. I only had it done to me once. 

The problem is that our youth is more and more desensitized to violence, and fantasy and positive reinforcement is stemmed from violence. I see this as a product of that.


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## rutherford (Feb 20, 2007)

You know, I've wondered if we aren't more desensitized to violence because we actually have less exposure to actual violence and as well as an overexposure to fantasy violence.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 20, 2007)

rutherford said:


> You know, I've wondered if we aren't more desensitized to violence because we actually have less exposure to actual violence and as well as an overexposure to fantasy violence.


 
The situation is not helped when we let anybody with a few bucks make TV programmes in which they actively seek out idiotic things to do.  The Jackass crew immediately comes to mind.  They then develop a cult following and become famous so teens see this and think, "If I do something like that I will be famous too."  And from there its just a case of escalation of activity as former "stunts" become boring.  End result, murder for fun.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 20, 2007)

A friend of mine who is an LEO has a theory about this part is due to the desensitization brought about by exactly what has been posted fantasy violence, shows like the Jackass group. etc and part he feels is the decline of religion which means they have no fear of an ultimate punishment. When asked what religion they are (it is on the arrest form) they generally say I dont know or none. 

Funny thing is my friend the LEO is an atheist.


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## Kreth (Feb 20, 2007)

Why is it always the games, or the music, or the shows they watch? Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Try a couple of these ****ers as adults and sentence them to lethal injection.


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## jks9199 (Feb 20, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Why is it always the games, or the music, or the shows they watch? Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Try a couple of these ****ers as adults and sentence them to lethal injection.


The games, tv shows, music, or whatever don't make the kids do stupid, violent, or self-destructive things.  But they do have a desensitizing effect on them, making these things seem more acceptable to them, and the games, music, or whatever also stir up feelings and emotions that seek an outlet.  And the kids look for an outlet that resembles the game...

Add a less than fully developed sense of self-responsibility, with a healthy dose of youthful immortality -- and we get this sort of stupidity.

Religion or cultural inculcation can, in my opinion, deter or weaken those effects, too.


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## Carol (Feb 20, 2007)

I think the issue is more the parenting.  If parents don't care about kids that bunk off their responsibilities and play games all day, if they don't watch for an attitude change while they listen to a lot of agressive music, if the don't care if the kids are involved in church or cultural activities...hey, guess how the kids are going to turn out?


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## Cruentus (Feb 20, 2007)

rutherford said:


> You know, I've wondered if we aren't more desensitized to violence because we actually have less exposure to actual violence and as well as an overexposure to fantasy violence.


 
That is exactly right. Take a kid of proper age (not too young where they can't cognitively process it) hunting, and that kid see's the real consequence of a violent act of shooting another being. With proper lessons regarding respecting life, using the entire animal rather then just sport killing, etc., such an experience can be very educational. That kid will know about gun safety, how fragile life is and what something like a rifle or knife (gutting and cleaning) can do. That, along with being brought up with compassion and empathy are all good things.

In contrast, just let a pre-teen sit in front of the computer and X-box and play fantasy games that glorify violence, let them watch all the R rated violent films and crap they want on cable, and so on and so on with no real function in the real world and society, and what do you get? Little nerdy psychopaths caught up in their own violent fantasy conception of what the world is.

To say that environmental conditioning doesn't play a role in molding our youth is absurd. Yet, don't worry gaming freaks, I don't think the answer is banning video games or movies. The obvious answer is parents need to actually parent their kids, and pay attention to what music, games, media, etc., that they are being exposed too. A 10 year old who is still formulating his conception of reality and what the world is like doesn't need to be watching movies or playing video games that are intended for people 18 and older. 

Parents now a days need to be taking this stuff pretty seriously, and they need to really be screening what their kids are exposed too until they are of an age and maturity level where they can logically seperate what is real and what is fantasy or entertainment. 

Otherwise, the parent who isn't paying attention might be the one to get that visit from the police regarding that dead homeless person who used to live in the neighborhood.


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## dragonswordkata (Feb 20, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The games, tv shows, music, or whatever don't make the kids do stupid, violent, or self-destructive things. But they do have a desensitizing effect on them, making these things seem more acceptable to them, and the games, music, or whatever also stir up feelings and emotions that seek an outlet. And the kids look for an outlet that resembles the game...
> 
> Add a less than fully developed sense of self-responsibility, with a healthy dose of youthful immortality -- and we get this sort of stupidity.
> 
> Religion or cultural inculcation can, in my opinion, deter or weaken those effects, too.


JKS I have to agree. Id like to add that as our social institutions (i.e church,school, family...) lose infuence in young folks lives they will naturaly turn to another medum to fill that void. And I think that the games,music and pop culture create a far more glamorus appeal then the old institutions I mentioned, and so they re-write our cultural values, for better or worse. This is where personal choice comes to play. We may be surounded by lots of negitive messages but that does not condone our actions if we make poor choices.


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## Kacey (Feb 20, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I think the issue is more the parenting.  If parents don't care about kids that bunk off their responsibilities and play games all day, if they don't watch for an attitude change while they listen to a lot of agressive music, if the don't care if the kids are involved in church or cultural activities...hey, guess how the kids are going to turn out?



I agree with Carol - too many parents don't teach their children a sense of personal responsibility, and too many parents don't keep close enough track of their kids' actions to think they could do something that violent - that's always one of the first comments you hear "I never thought he could do something like that" or "Not my child - it must have been the kids he hangs out with".

Do the other factors mentioned play into the problem too?  Most certainly - but it still comes back to parenting - because the parents are happy to let the kids play the games, without really paying attention to the content, because then they are occupied and out of the way.


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## Kreth (Feb 20, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The games, tv shows, music, or whatever don't make the kids do stupid, violent, or self-destructive things.  But they do have a desensitizing effect on them, making these things seem more acceptable to them, and the games, music, or whatever also stir up feelings and emotions that seek an outlet.  And the kids look for an outlet that resembles the game...


If your (meaning these kids, not you) personality is that weak, then you have issues. I am just so sick of everything being blamed on anything but the kid who's actually responsible. Guess what, I grew up in a single parent household, I love heavy metal, and I have a great time playing Grand Theft Auto and shooting cops and seeing how long I can survive before the SWAT teams take me down. And before GTA, it was Half-Life, Quake, and Doom. And when I was a kid, before games like this were available, we used to play games like Kill the Guy with the Ball and have BB gun wars. For some reason, I've never thought it acceptable to beat up someone for fun, let alone kill them. Maybe I haven't been desensitized enough? :idunno:


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 20, 2007)

I think things like this happen all the time. For instance we are only now hearing about self overdosing Robotussin DM cough syrup being a problem with kids. Its been going on forever but to put out the news of it being a problem will only teach more kids to try the Robbotussin. Its a lose lose situation.
Sean


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I think the issue is more the parenting. If parents don't care about kids that bunk off their responsibilities and play games all day, if they don't watch for an attitude change while they listen to a lot of agressive music, if the don't care if the kids are involved in church or cultural activities...hey, guess how the kids are going to turn out?


 
Thank you!! I've said this in the past and I'll say it again.  I grew up watching horror movies and cartoons where the coyote would chase after the roadrunner, fall off a cliff and get right back up again, but my parents explained the reality from the fiction.  I listened to the 80's rock bands, and never once thought about suicide.  

Like you said, the majority of it comes to parenting.

Mike


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## Sukerkin (Feb 21, 2007)

I agree with a great many of the sentiments spoken here, especially, I suspose because they ring so close to similar things I've said myself in conversations and discussions.

*Cruentus*'s words encapsulate it best for me (sorry mate, I tried to 'rep' you but apparently I'm not sharing the love around enough ).

As stated, the problem lies in the desensitising deluge of non-real violence and the lack of both proper parenting (to paraphrase) to emphasise that what is fictional should not necessarily translate into the real world.

I don't want to berate parents too much as they've had most of the effective disciplining 'tools' legally removed from their grasp, which makes the already hard task very difficult indeed.  

To delve back into the swirling mists of time a tad, when I grew up, I would say that real world violence of the minor rough-house sort may have been worse than it is now but those early-years fracas taught everyone that fighting hurts (one way or another because even if you won you got a good-hiding for fighting off your dad).  I even lost a couple of teeth in one scrap because the lad I was fighting smacked me in the face with a broom (it took him a decade to live down the 'coward' label that earned him).

That physical realisation of the consequences of actions in turn helped ensure that the childhood fighting did not turn into adult violence - as far as I know, no-one I went to school with had violence issues even remotely approaching what has been noted previously (lethal beatings, use of weapons et al).

Food for thought certainly.


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## jazkiljok (Feb 23, 2007)

odd thing. the other night on late night television i had the experience of seeing again for the first time in many years- A Clockwork Orange-- i'd completely forgotten the intense and surreal opening scene that takes Alex and his Droogs to an underpass where they find a drunk and beat him senseless before moving on to gang fights, car theft, rape and murder.

at the time this film came out it was deemed too intense in England and was banned. many feared that kids would emulate its violence.

Maybe their is something to the aimlessness of youth and the fuel of dreamy violence kids see in movies, vid games and toys.  

is there a connection? 

one does wonder.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 24, 2007)

It's funny....
I played D&D heavily as a kid....
Have spent countless hours gaming on the computer....
...first person shooters a specialty.
I've listened to heavy metal since Ozzy was in Sabbath the first time, and KISS was still on the original line up.....
I watch sci-fi, fantasy, anime, porn, and war movies.
I've dyed my hair, have tattoos and body piercings.
I was heavily ridiculed and repeatedly harassed and physically assaulted in high school.
I'm a geek.
I'm a pagan/taoist/Hindu/Buddhist and a past atheist, episcopalian, satanist, wiccan. (Yeah, I've done alot of seeking, still am)
I play paintball, lasertag, stickfight, & spar.

There are some matters in my past that would have many people going "damn!" if they were brought up.

I've never killed anyone.
I've never raped anyone.
I've never put anyone in the hospital due to "uncontrollable anger"
I've never killed myself (duh)
I've never been arrested.
I've never taken pleasure torturing animals.
I've never killed an animal for pleasure. (flys and spiders don't count)
I've never plotted to take up arms and wipe out my classmates.
I've never thought it would be cool to drive around and hit people with 2x4s/shoot them with paintballs

I must have gone wrong somehow.  I'm sorry, but in my opinion, these "teens" need a dose of reality soon.  They think the world revolves around them, that they are the center of the universe and that they are indestructable and answer to no one. They need a reality check. Some will sympathise with these losers. I don't. 

It's not music, or gaming, or porn, religion or what not.
It's poor upbringing, a serious lack of respect, respect for self, respect for life, respect for others. Dumb *** parents too lazy to take any interest in their kids lives, overburdened school systems being used as secondary parents, spoiled brats and government doing its best to shift blame, look busy but do nothing combined with talentless so called "reporters" looking for a sensational story.....they need to be put against a wall and shot. Yes, I said shot.  The buck passing needs to end, the parents need to be held accountable and these pisspots reigned in and taught some serious manners.  Time to let teachers use a stick on the little brats again.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 24, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It's poor upbringing, a serious lack of respect, respect for self, respect for life, respect for others.



Lack of respect is right, but one thing I was always taught growing up was that respect was a two way thing, if you didn't show it, you wouldn't get it.

Does society give teens respect?  Seems a chicken and egg thing a little here.

But when I see videos of schools that look like prisons, with random drug sweeps done without warrant by armed officers, weapons drawn.  And when I see metal detectors and security armed guards searching students as they enter.  And when stories of teachers abusing there power are just as common as teen violence.  Students getting suspended for incredibly stupid things.  It's really no surprise that some of them have no respect for society.

Treat people like criminals and second class citizens, and that is exactly what you will get.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 24, 2007)

Personally, I blame Bumfights.​


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## Andrew Green (Feb 24, 2007)

Cryozombie said:


> Personally, I blame Bumfights.​



I think that begs the question of why are bum fights getting interest?

Perhaps the overwhelming abundance of fantasy violence, and almost complete sheltering of real violence?

Bum fights maybe feed a strong curiosity for what "real" violence is like?  Which of course is nonsense as they are just another form of fantasy made to seem real, like all the other reality TV crap we've been flooded with since Survivor made a motion to lower the global IQ levels.


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## Jonathan Randall (Feb 24, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Lack of respect is right, but one thing I was always taught growing up was that respect was a two way thing, if you didn't show it, you wouldn't get it.
> 
> Does society give teens respect? Seems a chicken and egg thing a little here.
> 
> ...


 
That's a good point. One of my pet peeves, after Columbine, was the way adults in authority began to treat all students as potential mass-murderers - despite the fact that all but two of the students at Columbine were VICTIMS and that adults have been committing spree killings in record numbers since the 1960's (Texas Tower incident, IIRC, got the ball rolling) and only in the past decade or so have dysfunctional kids followed this example.

That being said, all the teacher and staff abuse that I saw directed against particular students (usually minorities) in public school in Florida in the mid-1970's did not _cause _similiar behavior by students - and some sadistic teachers would seriously bruise students with a large wooden paddle on any pretext.

I think this phenomenon is caused by a variety of factors - from bad parenting to the glorification of and desensitization to violence by the media as well as the lack of personal responsibility folks take today in comparison to past eras.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 24, 2007)

True. Sadly the reaction is to over react. Schools today are much more tightly locked down than when I went, and the restrictions insane.  No locker stops, no bags to carry your books, and people wonder why.

Its true, treat people like dirt, they become dirt.  Unfortunately, that's the US education system today.  Goto school and learn to conform. Be a sheep. Baaaaa.


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## Jonathan Randall (Feb 24, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> True. Sadly the reaction is to over react. Schools today are much more tightly locked down than when I went, and the restrictions insane. No locker stops, no bags to carry your books, and people wonder why.
> 
> Its true, treat people like dirt, they become dirt. Unfortunately, that's the US education system today. Goto school and learn to conform. Be a sheep. Baaaaa.


 
I want to start a new thread on this topic - mind if I use your post (quoted - to get the ball rolling) and do so?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 24, 2007)

Go ahead.


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## fireman00 (Feb 24, 2007)

an how old were most of us when we started playing DOOM or  D&D ? I'd say most likely in our mid to late teens when our core values of right and wrong, while not set in stone, were pretty much formed. 

Unfortunately in today's world kids are playing GTA at the age of 6... how do you think that affects the development of their values?  Does anyone really believe that having a 6 year old whose playing the bad guy that's  peeing into a a dead  cop's mouth won't have serious repercussions?  The Road Runner never went off on Wiley Coyote like that.

Being exposed to a first person shooting game at that age has been shown to desensitize children to violence and death.

We did a survey in the dojang -  when asked what their favorite movie was several kids who are 6,7 and 8 years old listed Saw, Saw II and Saw III as their favorites.  When I asked other adults at the dojang what their favorite movies where when they were 6-8 they mentioned movies like  Old Yeller,  Herbie the Love Bug and  any other Walt Disney movie.    

Parenting is the root cause of the escalating level of violence in society; but there are other factors at work that should be more regulated becuase parents aren't doing their job - its far easier to buy the kid a game and let him sit in front of the TV playing GTA for hours on end then to make sure that they are doing their homework, taking them to <insert sport> practice, and on and on and on.

As far as schools go - read the papers and check out CNN.COM, FOXNEWS.COM or MSNBC.COM; almost every day there is a report of a weapon being found in school, on the school bus or on school grounds.  What should school administrator do? Turn their heads away and pretend like another Columbine won't happen?


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## Kacey (Feb 24, 2007)

Jonathan Randall said:


> I want to start a new thread on this topic - mind if I use your post (quoted - to get the ball rolling) and do so?





fireman00 said:


> As far as schools go - read the papers and check out CNN.COM, FOXNEWS.COM or MSNBC.COM; almost every day there is a report of a weapon being found in school, on the school bus or on school grounds.  What should school administrator do? Turn their heads away and pretend like another Columbine won't happen?



I posted my response to the thread that Jonathan started from Bob's quote here, but I think some of it is relevant to this discussion also, especially in response to fireman00's post, so I'm going to quote myself rather than retype it all:



> Honestly, Jonathan, I think it's an outgrowth of a societal issue that is much bigger than the schools. As a teacher, I see way too many kids and teens who have no sense of personal responsibility, because they have not learned responsibility _from their parents_ - and it is now multi-generational.  We live in a society where blaming everyone _but oneself_ is a national pasttime - look at the mess clogging our legal system, the ads for personal injury attorneys, the class-action lawsuits for medicines proven to be harmful too late, lawsuits against McDonald's for "making people fat" - all the ways people are encouraged to blame those around them for the ills of their lives - all of this is part of a bigger societal issue: if you don't like something, get together a big enough group of of people, and get a law passed against is; if you're a legislator, and your constituents - especially the noisy ones - don't like something, pass a law against it; if something happens that you don't like and don't know how to fix, pass a law against it... if you can't pass a law, file a suit... the fact that many of these laws are unenforceable, and many of the lawsuits cost more than people involved will get (except for the attorneys) doesn't stop anyone, because they see it as action, when it is really a knee-jerk reaction that has little or no effect, and often backfires more than it works as intended.
> 
> To get back more directly to schools - I agree. There was a case in Colorado (well before Columbine, I might add), shortly after the "zero tolerance" for weapons law had been passed, about a 3rd grade girl who got to the school cafeteria and found that she had her mother's lunch instead of her own - and inside the bag was a paring knife her mother had packed to cut up an apple. The student took the knife to a teacher and asked what she should do with it - the teacher took it, and went to ask the principal, who, reluctantly and with a great deal of distaste for the law he _had to uphold_, had no choice but to expel the girl - who had done exactly as she should have - for bringing a weapon to school. To have not done so would have cost his job. To his credit, he did the best he could - because the law requires expulsion, which, in Colorado, cannot exceed a year's time, but doesn't have a minimum - so he expelled the girl for one day, to meet the requirements of the law while attempting to not punish her unduly for something that was truly not her fault. Nonetheless, the child went through all her elementary and secondary schooling with an expulsion on her record, her parents filed suit against the school (and rightfully so, in this case)... but the law continues to state that anything that even *looks* like a weapon be treated as if it really were one.
> 
> ...


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## evenflow1121 (Feb 24, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It's funny....
> I played D&D heavily as a kid....
> Have spent countless hours gaming on the computer....
> ...first person shooters a specialty.
> ...


 
This is an excellent post sir, everyone especially when they are growing up needs a couple of smacks just to put them in line,I know my dad didnt play around when I got out of line, but it made me a better person.  A lot of parents are not taking responsibility for their children these days, and our politicians are too cowardly to properly address the issue.


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## jazkiljok (Feb 24, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Dumb *** parents too lazy to take any interest in their kids lives, overburdened school systems being used as secondary parents, spoiled brats and government doing its best to shift blame, look busy but do nothing combined with talentless so called "reporters" looking for a sensational story.....they need to be put against a wall and shot. Yes, I said shot.  The buck passing needs to end, the parents need to be held accountable and these pisspots reigned in and taught some serious manners.  Time to let teachers use a stick on the little brats again.



yep. blow'em up. blow'em up good.

:redeme:


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## Blotan Hunka (Feb 24, 2007)

> It's not music, or gaming, or porn, religion or what not.
> It's poor upbringing, a serious lack of respect, respect for self, respect for life, respect for others. Dumb *** parents too lazy to take any interest in their kids lives, overburdened school systems being used as secondary parents, spoiled brats and government doing its best to shift blame, look busy but do nothing combined with talentless so called "reporters" looking for a sensational story.....they need to be put against a wall and shot. Yes, I said shot. The buck passing needs to end, the parents need to be held accountable and these pisspots reigned in and taught some serious manners. Time to let teachers use a stick on the little brats again.



Exactly right. Except then those same parents will be in the school raising holy hell that their "little angel" was paddled.


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## jks9199 (Feb 25, 2007)

Kreth said:


> If your (meaning these kids, not you) personality is that weak, then you have issues. I am just so sick of everything being blamed on anything but the kid who's actually responsible. Guess what, I grew up in a single parent household, I love heavy metal, and I have a great time playing Grand Theft Auto and shooting cops and seeing how long I can survive before the SWAT teams take me down. And before GTA, it was Half-Life, Quake, and Doom. And when I was a kid, before games like this were available, we used to play games like Kill the Guy with the Ball and have BB gun wars. For some reason, I've never thought it acceptable to beat up someone for fun, let alone kill them. Maybe I haven't been desensitized enough? :idunno:



That's not at all what I meant...  Ultimately, the kid is absolutely responsible for his choices.  But his parents have a role in what they teach and in what they let a kid fill his brains with.

I'm a police officer.  I currently specialize in gang investigation.  In that field, we despise the term "wannabe."  If a kid is dressing the part, acting the part, and hanging around with gangsters...  He's GONNABE a gangster.  But I very rarely find kids with involved and aware parents who become gangsters...  

It's not merely the music or the tv shows that is desensitizing kids to violence, and encouraging them to choose to commit violent acts.  It's the overt glamorization of violence and a violent lifestyle, with little depiction of the consequences, that is desensitizing them.  Parents, schools, youth programs, teachers, and society can counter this -- but only if they choose to be aware of the influence, and use their own.  Other factors that feed the desentization include early exposure (as others have pointed out) and the almost hyper-realism and involvement of the video games or movies, etc.  By the time I was old enough and had the freedom to try some of the stuff seen in cartoons when I was a kid...  I knew the difference between a cartoon and reality.


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## Jonathan Randall (Feb 25, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> That's not at all what I meant... Ultimately, the kid is absolutely responsible for his choices. But his parents have a role in what they teach and in what they let a kid fill his brains with.
> 
> I'm a police officer. I currently specialize in gang investigation. In that field, we despise the term "wannabe." If a kid is dressing the part, acting the part, and hanging around with gangsters... He's GONNABE a gangster. But I very rarely find kids with involved and aware parents who become gangsters...
> 
> It's not merely the music or the tv shows that is desensitizing kids to violence, and encouraging them to choose to commit violent acts. It's the overt glamorization of violence and a violent lifestyle, with little depiction of the consequences, that is desensitizing them. Parents, schools, youth programs, teachers, and society can counter this -- but only if they choose to be aware of the influence, and use their own.


 
Good point - and I don't believe that your observations are truly in conflict with Kreth's or my own. Personal responsibility, as you point out, as well as environment (media, culture, etc.) influence are not mutually exclusive factors.


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