# Switching my mechanics of the jab to avoid elbow flare.



## Acronym

So in the past I did the classical mistake of elbow flare but now I've tried different ways to side step that and accept a reduction in power.

Would it be a good analogy to think of a non flaring jab as a poke? This way your shoulder won't flare since it's the forearm and shoulder doing the motions. How would you describe it?


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> So in the past I did the classical mistake of elbow flare but now I've tried different ways to side step that and accept a reduction in power.
> 
> Would it be a good analogy to think of a non flaring jab as a poke? This way your shoulder won't flare since it's the forearm and shoulder doing the motions. How would you describe it?


''improving'' the mechanics, but substantially reducing the power seems a contradiction in terms ?


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> ''improving'' the mechanics, but substantially reducing the power seems a contradiction in terms ?



It isn't.. Several of the hardest punchers in the history of boxing threw windmill haymakers (Shavers, Wilder, etc) . There is usually a reduction.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> It isn't.. Several of the hardest punchers in the history of boxing threw windmill haymakers (Shavers, Wilder, etc) . There is usually a reduction.


 but we are talking about jabs, jabs first and foremost need to be fast, their purpose is to be faster than your opponents ability to cover or move.

if you havent got speed you haven't got anything, there is a trade off between speed and power, but it does need to hurt,them, poking them as you put it isnt optimal, try to snap their head back or at least mess up their features a bit

if what ever you were doing before produced speed and power, then changing it wasn't a good move, if its lost one or both of those


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> if what ever you were doing before produced speed and power, then changing it wasn't a good move, if its lost one or both of those



I had both but the elbow flare telegraphed it, even at my speed. So I'm gonna settle with a less powerful one. It will get gradually more powerful.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> I had both but the elbow flare telegraphed it, even at my speed. So I'm gonna settle with a less powerful one. It will get gradually more powerful.


 did you spar someone to arrive at the conclusion it was telegraphed ? it really doesnt matter if it telegraphed, every boxer knows your going to jab, the issue is is it fast enough that it lands

if all your doing is watching you tube and shadow boxing your going to arrive at some strange conclusions

it may increase in power it may not, but it most definitely wont if all your hitting is fresh air. at least get a bag, that will give you some feed back on power, then work on it

a powder puff jab will just encourage people to walk through it and hit you, it needs to make them retreat


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> did you spar someone to arrive at the conclusion it was telegraphed ?



Yes


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> Yes


so it wasnt fast enough then


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## Danny T

The thing about using proper mechanics with punching is that when done properly what you (the puncher) feel may seem less powerful because the stresses on your structure are transferred differently to the ground through your structure. What's important is the power being deliverer is transferred into what you are striking properly. The other person feels it while you may feel like as though you didn't punch very hard at all.


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## jobo

Danny T said:


> The thing about using proper mechanics with punching is that when done properly what you (the puncher) feel may seem less powerful because the stresses on your structure are transferred differently to the ground through your structure. What's important is the power being deliverer is transferred into what you are striking properly. The other person feels it while you may feel like as though you didn't punch very hard at all.


 thats very true, but you need a feedback loop, of actually hitting someone or something so you can judge the power and the force imparted

just assuming its improved because you have changed the mechanics is a dangerous assumption


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## Acronym

It let me down against a taller, rangier opponent where I felt I was reaching for my shots and I just couldn't get off properly.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> It let me down against a taller, rangier opponent where I felt I was reaching for my shots and I just couldn't get off properly.


you need to jab when they are in range, if they have longer arms, then you are up against it, in a jabbing contest. at some point they will need to get close enough to punch you, thats when you jab them


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## Danny T

jobo said:


> thats very true, but you need a feedback loop, of actually hitting someone or something so you can judge the power and the force imparted
> 
> just assuming its improved because you have changed the mechanics is a dangerous assumption


LOL...that's true. If one doesn't actually strike something when punching there will have been no force transferred.


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## jobo

Danny T said:


> LOL...that's true. If one doesn't actually strike something when punching there will have been no force transferred.


it will have transfer some of that power to the air, ive seen people measure this by hanging paces of paper and punching close to them to see what deflection they cause, i still think they should stop being tight and by a bag


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## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> So in the past I did the classical mistake of elbow flare but now I've tried different ways to side step that and accept a reduction in power.
> 
> Would it be a good analogy to think of a non flaring jab as a poke? This way your shoulder won't flare since it's the forearm and shoulder doing the motions. How would you describe it?


For me personally.  I wouldn't describe it with words.  I would have a person stand next to a wall where the punching arm is close enough to punch.  That motion that you use to punch when your arm is that close is the motion you use to jab.  Remember how it feels and repeat when training.


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## Kung Fu Wang

jobo said:


> you need a feedback loop, of actually hitting someone or something so you can judge the power and the force imparted


Agree! To test the speed and power of your jab can be done by partner training.

- Both you and your opponent have right side forward with hands drop next to the knees.
- You use right jab to hit your opponent's left back shoulder.
- Your opponent uses right leading arm to block it.
- Test this for 15 rounds and record the result.

The higher successful number that you have, the more speed that you have. The farther that you can knock your opponent's left shoulder back, the harder that your jab is.

This is very safe training. Your shoulder should be able to take a lot of power from your opponent's jab.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> the motion you use to jab.


What's the purpose of your jab? Do you intend to knock your opponent down by your jab? That will be quite unlikely.

So the reason that you throw a jab can be to use a jab to

1. hurt your opponent a little bit.
2. set up your next strike (a cross, a hook, a kick, or, ...)
3. achieve a clinch (make arms contact, your jab can then changes into a wrist pull).
4. ...

Besides 1, if your purpose is 2, or 3, the speed is not that important. If you use your jab as a bait, you want to make sure the fish has plenty of time to swallow it.


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> ''improving'' the mechanics, but substantially reducing the power seems a contradiction in terms ?



Not really in this case.


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## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the purpose of your jab? Do you intend to knock your opponent down by your jab? That will be quite unlikely.
> 
> So the reason that you throw a jab can be to use a jab to
> 
> 1. hurt your opponent a little bit.
> 2. set up your next strike (a cross, a hook, a kick, or, ...)
> 3. achieve a clinch (make arms contact, your jab can then changes into a wrist pull).
> 4. ...
> 
> Besides 1, if your purpose is 2, or 3, the speed is not that important. If you use your jab as a bait, you want to make sure the fish has plenty of time to swallow it.


The OP seems to have had a past problem of elbow flare.  I'm assuming that "elbow flare" means elbows stuck out when he jab.  Instead of trying to explain how to do a correct jab, provide a tool that allows a person to make a correct jab, then remember how that correct jab feels and repeat that feeling.

Without proper jab structure a person will have a difficult time getting the max speed and power out of it.  At a minimum a jab should be powerful enough to interrupt your opponent's "next move".  The level of power needed will vary from person to person.


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## drop bear

Acronym said:


> So in the past I did the classical mistake of elbow flare but now I've tried different ways to side step that and accept a reduction in power.
> 
> Would it be a good analogy to think of a non flaring jab as a poke? This way your shoulder won't flare since it's the forearm and shoulder doing the motions. How would you describe it?



Ok. I had a girl the other day doing pretty much this. So she was loading her jab and I could pick it too easily and she could never land it. 

The easiest fix is was to throw two jabs. One flicks out and the second one loads up. And so the flick disguises the load up. 

As far as elbow flare. It is situational. So it depends a bit on the angle of the jab. Which depends a bit on what they are doing.


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## jobo

mm n
ll


drop bear said:


> Not really in this case.


well exactly in this case, thats more or less what he said has happened


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## drop bear

Acronym said:


> It let me down against a taller, rangier opponent where I felt I was reaching for my shots and I just couldn't get off properly.



Learn to parry jab.


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> mm n
> ll
> 
> well exactly in this case, thats more or less what he said has happened



No. It exactly didn't. He was throwing a far too powerful jab off the bat and was very unsurprisingly getting caught by a rangier guy.

There is nothing wrong with either version of a jab. Unless you throw them at the wrong time.

So in this particular case better mechanics means a less powerful punch. Because the punch that lands is better than the punch that doesn't.

And this idea transfers in to a bit of boxing concept when we start discussing pacing  and cardio.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> No. It exactly didn't. He was throwing a far too powerful jab off the bat and was very unsurprisingly getting caught by a rangier guy.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with either version of a jab. Unless you throw them at the wrong time.
> 
> So in this particular case better mechanics means a less powerful punch. Because the punch that lands is better than the punch that doesn't.
> 
> And this idea transfers in to a bit of boxing concept when we start discussing pacing  and cardio.


how have you arrived at the conclusion his previous jab was'' far to powerful''

thats not included in the data at all


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> how have you arrived at the conclusion his previous jab was'' far to powerful''
> 
> thats not included in the data at all



Yes it is.

Sorry. And I arrived there because I understand the subject.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> Sorry. And I arrived there because I understand the subject.


no it isnt

please quote the bit that specified this


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> no it isnt
> 
> please quote the bit that specified this



"I had both but the elbow flare telegraphed it, even at my speed. So I'm gonna settle with a less powerful one. It will get gradually more powerful."

"It let me down against a taller, rangier opponent where I felt I was reaching for my shots and I just couldn't get off properly."


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> "I had both but the elbow flare telegraphed it, even at my speed. So I'm gonna settle with a less powerful one. It will get gradually more powerful."
> 
> "It let me down against a taller, rangier opponent where I felt I was reaching for my shots and I just couldn't get off properly."



no im looking for something that backs up your specific quote that it was '' FAR to powerful

clearly you have no idea how powerful it was before he modified it, so you dont know if it was powerful, to powerful or indeed the one you went with which was FAR to powerful or indeed non of those


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> no im looking for something that backs up your specific quote that it was '' FAR to powerful
> 
> clearly you have no idea how powerful it was before he modified it, so you dont know if it was powerful, to powerful or indeed the one you went with which was FAR to powerful or indeed non of those



Yes I do.

Because I understand the subject.

There is a lot of back of house about striking that I am using to apply to these statements.

Just because you don't understand these statements doesn't make them wrong.

So I know a hard jab comes with an elbow flare.






So if he is throwing with the elbow flare and he is getting bashed he is throwing too hard in this particular instance. 

Therefore lighter quicker jab is the better mechanics at this time.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Yes I do.
> 
> Because I understand the subject.
> 
> There is a lot of back of house about striking that I am using to apply to these statements.
> 
> Just because you don't understand these statements doesn't make them wrong.


my understanding is irrelevant the statements are either right or they are wrong and as you have no data on which to base them, there only a very small chance that your correct

saying it just that you understand is just what water diviners say

So again, how have you decided how powerful his jab was before modification ?


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> my understanding is irrelevant the statements are either right or they are wrong and as you have no data on which to base them, there only a very small chance that your correct
> 
> saying it just that you understand is just what water diviners say



His statements are right. Yours are wrong.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> His statements are right. Yours are wrong.


his statement are probably correct, as far as they go, its your statements that are at issue


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> For me personally.  I wouldn't describe it with words.  I would have a person stand next to a wall where the punching arm is close enough to punch.  That motion that you use to punch when your arm is that close is the motion you use to jab.  Remember how it feels and repeat when training.


Glad I read through- this was going to be my suggestion! When you bump your elbow every time you mess it up, you learn to fix it (or at least notice it) real quick.


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## drop bear

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Glad I read through- this was going to be my suggestion! When you bump your elbow every time you mess it up, you learn to fix it (or at least notice it) real quick.



You can just throw the vertical fist as well.


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> his statement are probably correct, as far as they go, its your statements that are at issue



Because you don't understand them therefore they are wrong.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> You can just throw the vertical fist as well.


I've still seen people flare their elbow with a vertical fist. Not often, but it happens. Some people just punch weird naturally.


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## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Glad I read through- this was going to be my suggestion! When you bump your elbow every time you mess it up, you learn to fix it (or at least notice it) real quick.


I like that it takes the guess work out of wondering if the elbows flare and that it doesn't require anyone to watch.  Instant feedback.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> elbows flare ...


What do you mean "elbow flare"?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you mean "elbow flare"?


This is actually a video of the drill we're talking about, that shows the flare at the beginning. Basically the elbow pops out to the side instead of going forwards.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This is actually a video of the drill we're talking about, that shows the flare at the beginning. Basically the elbow pops out to the side instead of going forwards.


Thanks for showing that clip. Now I can understand what your guys are talking about.

I think the issue is one may skip the basic vertical fist training, and jump into the horizontal fist training too soon. Or may be one just tries to integrate jab and hook into one.

The training in the following clip is the 1st move of the 1st form in the long fist system. It can force a beginner to:

- always keep his elbow downward in his straight vertical punch.
- make sure his arm can achieve the maximum extension.

Of course in combat, one will never keep his back arm like that. It's only the basic training for "beginners". If one has drilled this over 5,000 times, he will never raise his elbow side way when he throws a straight punch. After one gets used to this punching path, his horizontal back fist will follow the same path.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Because you don't understand them therefore they are wrong.


i didnt say you were wrong, i said given the complete lack of information you used to arrive at your snap judgement, you were unlikely to be correct

a bit like water diviners will just get it right some of the time, but not mostly


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> It let me down against a taller, rangier opponent where I felt I was reaching for my shots and I just couldn't get off properly.


Maybe he was just better than you....no need to make excuses you got your butt kicked and tbh it’d probably the same no matter how you do your jab...a jab Is just one punch


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## jobo

Headhunter said:


> Maybe he was just better than you....no need to make excuses you got your butt kicked and tbh it’d probably the same no matter how you do your jab...a jab Is just one punch


im with you, mostly

jabs are useful, but lets be clear they are useful mostly to back the other guy off or to distract him whilst you do something else

it is possible if your jab is hard enough and fast enough to jab someone to defeat, possibly be TKO but certainly by points


but to do anything much it has to land ( obviously) which requires speed and needs to hurt them enough to distract them or back them off.

 a powder punch jab isnt the best, it is arguably better than not landing at all, but not much. but its not an either or situation and fast jab will impart force, a faster jab will impart even more.

if what your doing is throwing a straight ? right/left rather than a jab, then that really depends on if your straight right is fast enough to land, if it is, great, if it isnt stop throwing straight rights and work on your jab


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Headhunter said:


> Maybe he was just better than you....no need to make excuses you got your butt kicked and tbh it’d probably the same no matter how you do your jab...a jab Is just one punch


He's saying the other guy was better, amd the jab was part of it. He recognized it was lacking in a sparring match, so he's learning to improve his jab. Exactly what any martial artist should be doing.


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## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> He's saying the other guy was better, amd the jab was part of it. He recognized it was lacking in a sparring match, so he's learning to improve his jab. Exactly what any martial artist should be doing.


agreed, but has he improved it ?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> agreed, but has he improved it ?


No clue. I'd have to spar with him to really tell the answer. But he's apparently trying to improve it.


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## Kung Fu Wang

jobo said:


> jab is hard enough


Agree! If you coordinate your jab with your leading foot landing, you jab can be "almost" as powerful as your cross. The only missing part is the body rotation. You have body rotation in your cross. You don't have body rotation in you jab.


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> i didnt say you were wrong, i said given the complete lack of information you used to arrive at your snap judgement, you were unlikely to be correct
> 
> a bit like water diviners will just get it right some of the time, but not mostly



There was plenty of information. If you understood the information.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> There was plenty of information. If you understood the information.


thats what water diveniers say


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> thats what water diveniers say



Correct and the test will be to see if my advice gets used and helps.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Correct and the test will be to see if my advice gets used and helps.


but water deviners are right every so often, so that just makes you more like a deviner, claiming that random success is proof


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> but water deviners are right every so often, so that just makes you more like a deviner, claiming that random success is proof



No this would be a blind trial.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> No this would be a blind trial.


no it would be pot luck


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## Acronym

[


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This is actually a video of the drill we're talking about, that shows the flare at the beginning. Basically the elbow pops out to the side instead of going forwards.



And it pops out without knowing it. It's very devilish. Vertical fist helps. Probably the best quick fix.


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## Acronym

Headhunter said:


> Maybe he was just better than you....no need to make excuses you got your butt kicked and tbh it’d probably the same no matter how you do your jab...a jab Is just one punch



He did not kick my *** at all and my jab is very hard.


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> He did not kick my *** at all and my jab is very hard.


Was that video meant to prove that fact? Because you can’t tell how hard a punch is by a video of hitting a bag leaning on a wall


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> im with you, mostly
> 
> jabs are useful, but lets be clear they are useful mostly to back the other guy off or to distract him whilst you do something else
> 
> it is possible if your jab is hard enough and fast enough to jab someone to defeat, possibly be TKO but certainly by points
> 
> 
> but to do anything much it has to land ( obviously) which requires speed and needs to hurt them enough to distract them or back them off.
> 
> a powder punch jab isnt the best, it is arguably better than not landing at all, but not much. but its not an either or situation and fast jab will impart force, a faster jab will impart even more.
> 
> if what your doing is throwing a straight ? right/left rather than a jab, then that really depends on if your straight right is fast enough to land, if it is, great, if it isnt stop throwing straight rights and work on your jab



How long have you boxed? You write like a TMA theorizing.


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## Acronym

Jab trial with a vertical fist.


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## JowGaWolf

Mike tyson knocking fighters down with a single jab





Again knock downs with the jab





Most of the people who knock other down or know them out with the Jab use a lot of forward movement.  Those who just want to interrupt their opponent's next punch tend to move backwards with the jab.  Moving backwards reduces the power of the jab and draws the opponent in.





Most people use jabs like this


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## Acronym

"I have seen bad boxers with a good jab, but I've never seen a good boxer with a bad jab"

/Freddie Roach


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## drop bear

Acronym said:


> "I have seen bad boxers with a good jab, but I've never seen a good boxer with a bad jab"
> 
> /Freddie Roach



In any event you are loading that jab. And you shouldn't until you know you are going to hit the guy with it.

Otherwise the other guy will see it. And there is no way to make the jab too fast for that in this instance.

I don't catch people with fast jabs. I catch them with deceptive jabs.







So yeah. These jabs are so slow. Nobody should ever get nailed with them. And I consistently nail people with jabs.


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## Acronym

drop bear said:


> In any event you are loading that jab. And you shouldn't until you know you are going to hit the guy with it.
> 
> Otherwise the other guy will see it. And there is no way to make the jab too fast for that in this instance.
> 
> I don't catch people with fast jabs. I catch them with deceptive jabs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yeah. These jabs are so slow. Nobody should ever get nailed with them. And I consistently nail people with jabs.



It isn't loaded here. Of course just a set-up in this sequence, but still.


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## drop bear

Acronym said:


> It isn't loaded here. Of course just a set-up in this sequence, but still.



There you are throwing a back fist. Which almost amounts to the same thing. 

Because the punch has to travel sideways to hit the target. 

And you are stalling before you throw.


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## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> Jab trial with a vertical fist.


I see the flare that you were talking about.  That elbow is your Telltale sign.  I don't know for sure but it reminds me of someone trying to put more into a punch than they can handle.  It's like you are trying to make the punch too fast or too strong without having the structure that's required.  

Do your elbows flare when you punch slower?


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## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> I see the flare that you were talking about.  That elbow is your Telltale sign.  I don't know for sure but it reminds me of someone trying to put more into a punch than they can handle.



At any relevant speed and power for sparring, it flares even when trying to avoid it. That's the problem.


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## Acronym

drop bear said:


> And you are stalling before you throw.



Because I am focusing on the technique when trying to drill it in. And I'm still flaring


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## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> It isn't loaded here. Of course just a set-up in this sequence, but still.


your elbows still flare before the punch launches.  If I were to spare with you I would watch your elbows because that tell me when you were going to punch. Below is a screen shot of yourpunch.  You have significantly more movement in your elbow which is why it blurs more than your hand.  Even though you punch is fast,  It would still be easy to time your elbow and land a punch on your fist didn't start moving until your elbow was almost horizontal.

I think standing next to the wall would help you greatly.


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## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> Even though you punch is fast,  It would still be easy to time your elbow and land a punch on your fist didn't start moving until your elbow was almost horizontal.
> 
> I standing next to the wall would help you greatly.
> View attachment 22969



I don't believe you could focus on my elbow and parry the punch at the same time, unless you got Usain Bolt reactions time. Just looking at the elbow doesn't tell you which punch is coming.


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## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> I standing next to the wall would help you greatly.
> View attachment 22969



Been there, done that


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## drop bear

Acronym said:


> At any relevant speed and power for sparring, it flares even when trying to avoid it. That's the problem.



You should be able to land a slow jab. That is the magic of correct technique.


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## Acronym

drop bear said:


> You should be able to land a slow jab. That is the magic of correct technique.



I don't have Wladimir Klitchko range advantages over my opponents. Pawing and poking makes less sense then. My preferred range is long range too


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## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> At any relevant speed and power for sparring, it flares even when trying to avoid it. That's the problem.


I think you are quick enough where you can afford to pull back on your punch.  I also think the speed of your punches will actually increase because your fist will leave the chamber the moment you move.  You won't have the delay caused by raising your elbow.

If you were my student then I would have you train at this speed and I would tell you to focus on keeping your elbows towards your center as if were punching in a narrow hall way. I would also have you use the wall so you can feel what the punch should be like as you throw it.






It doesn't look like much but it will help you learn how to structure your punches.  Once that punching structure becomes more familiar to you,  I would then have you speed things up.   At this point I wouldn't worry about speed.  Whatever you think you'll lose in speed, you'll gain back in speed by throwing a punch that is more efficient with movement.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> You should be able to land a slow jab. That is the magic of correct technique.


I should have waited for you to post this.  I was thinking the same thing.  A well structure and well timed punch lands solid even when it's slow.  I used to see people get hit with slow stuff all the time.


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## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> I think you are quick enough where you can afford to pull back on your punch.  I also think the speed of your punches will actually increase because your fist will leave the chamber the moment you move.  You won't have the delay caused by raising your elbow.
> 
> If you were my student then I would have you train at this speed and I would tell you to focus on keeping your elbows towards your center as if were punching in a narrow hall way. I would also have you use the wall so you can feel what the punch should be like as you throw it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't look like much but it will help you learn how to structure your punches.  Once that punching structure becomes more familiar to you,  I would then have you speed things up.   At this point I wouldn't worry about speed.  Whatever you think you'll lose in speed, you'll gain back in speed by throwing a punch that is more efficient with movement.



I've done that but it doesn’t translate to sparring when I do techniques with force. Whenever I do it completely straight it feels like overpressure on the elbow and as if I'm choking any relevant power..


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## Acronym

That's also why I feel soft shadow boxing is useless. You don't ingrain any muscle memory from it. At least I never did.


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## drop bear

Acronym said:


> I don't have Wladimir Klitchko range advantages over my opponents. Pawing and poking makes less sense then. My preferred range is long range too



Learn to parry jab


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## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> Been there, done that


i don't think you have, and if you did, you didn't to it long enough and often enough.  This is the drill that I'm referring to, just in case there is confusion.  There's no way you can do this drill daily over 2 months and still have elbows that go out.


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> That's also why I feel soft shadow boxing is useless. You don't ingrain any muscle memory from it. At least I never did.



No. It helps because you get power from a sort of loose elasticity of movement. Rather than trying to hulk punches down range.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> i don't think you have, and if you did, you didn't to it long enough and often enough.  This is the drill that I'm referring to, just in case there is confusion.  There's no way you can do this drill daily over 2 months and still have elbows that go out.



I have shadow boxed for 6 months elbows in and it didn't do a damn thing to my muscle memory. That's also why you see technique diluted whenever boxers step into the ring..


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> No. It helps because you get power from a sort of loose elasticity of movement. Rather than trying to hulk punches down range.



So you agree it doesn't do any good for muscle memory? Watch any famous fighter fight and he drops his left a million times whenever the right is thrown, despite keeping it up shadow boxing.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> I've done that but it doesn’t translate to sparring when I do techniques with force. Whenever I do it completely straight it feels like overpressure on the elbow and as if I'm choking any relevant power..


If the movement is trained then it will come out the same way  even with force.  Training causes you to develop a pattern of motion that remains the same or similar even when you add force. My slow punches travel a similar path as my hard or fast punches.  This holds true for a lot of people.  

It's like what drop bear stated.  You load up on the punches and that causes you to punch beyond your ability to hold correct mechanics.  If you slow it down to a level you can control then you can build up from there.

Do a video of you punching slowly. Then increase your speed slightly until you have your fastest punch.  From there I can point out when you start to stick your elbows out.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> Watch any famous fighter fight and he drops his left a million times


We aren't talking about "dropping a left" we are talking about elbows that flare out.  These are 2 different issues all together.


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> So you agree it doesn't do any good for muscle memory? Watch any famous fighter fight and he drops his left a million times whenever the right is thrown, despite keeping it up shadow boxing.



No I believe it does help muscle memory. 

And keep your hands up.

When we look at lighter fighters throwing powerful shots there does not appear to be massive effort involved.  That is the muscle memory from lighter shadow sparring.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> We aren't talking about "dropping a left" we are talking about elbows that flare out.  These are 2 different issues all together.



The principle is the same. The memory of doing it one way shadow boxing does not carry over to when you fight.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> I don't believe you could focus on my elbow and parry the punch at the same time, unless you got Usain Bolt reactions time. Just looking at the elbow doesn't tell you which punch is coming.


If your elbow moves a great distance then I don't need to know where the punch is going.  I just have to punch you before your elbow gets horizontal and your punch will never leave the chamber or it will get interrupted when my strike lands.  This isn't something magical.  If I did the same thing you are doing people would do the same to me.  They will watch my elbow.  When my elbow starts to move they know that it will rise before my fist moves forward.  The end result will be that I get hit.

Keeping the elbows down and in hides that movement and shortest the distance and time that the fist hast to travel.  With elbows in,  my concept of how far forward you move will be off.  As a result, I won't realize that the punch is coming until it's too late.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> No I believe it does help muscle memory.
> ]



No evidence of that.


----------



## Acronym

Not only does Tyson drop his left constantly, his chin is up in the air as well


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> If your elbow moves a great distance then I don't need to know where the punch is going.



What does elbow moving at a great distance mean?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> The principle is the same. The memory of doing it one way shadow boxing does not carry over to when you fight.


For me, things that I do in shadow boxing transfers into fighting very easily. Which is why I do shadow boxing.  If you did 6 months of shadow boxing then it's most likely that your elbows were flaring during shadow boxing which is why you have a difficult time with it now.  It carried over.  

The faster you punch the less aware you were of your flaring elbows.  That lack of awareness doubles when you spar because your attention is somewhere else other than your elbows.  Which is why correct motion is trained.  That way the motion can run on auto pilot while you fight.


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> No evidence of that.
> 
> View attachment 22971 View attachment 22972
> View attachment 22971 View attachment 22972 View attachment 22973



Yeah. There is a reason they will get away with dropping their hands and you won't. And it is a whole new discussion. 

But if you want to start dropping your hands because top fighters do be my guest. It is not my head. 

Anyway some shadow work from one of the harder lightweight punches out there.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> What does elbow moving at a great distance mean?


Your elbow moves up then out instead of just moving forward.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> Yeah. There is a reason they will get away with dropping their hands and you won't. And it is a whole new discussion.
> ]



That's irrelevant. They do it despite drilling not to do it. And I'm no exception. If they fall prey at the highest level, so will I


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> That's irrelevant. They do it despite drilling not to do it. And I'm no exception. If they fall prey at the highest level, so will I



Ok. Do you have this level of head movement?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> Not only does Tyson drop his left constantly, his chin is up in the air as well


None of this has anything to do with flaring elbows.  You making as assumption about something that doesn't apply to your issue of flaring elbows, which is the currently issue that you said you are having.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> Ok. Do you have this level of head movement?



Tyson is just one example. Every elite boxer, head moving or not, drops the left.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Ok. Do you have this level of head movement?


Man that was a well timed punch. He was waiting for that one.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> None of this has anything to do with flaring elbows.  You making as assumption about something that doesn't apply to your issue of flaring elbows, which is the currently issue that you said you are having.



They are both related to muscle memory. I do one thing slow, another thing fast. Whatever I do soft does not carry over. Instincts I have in action are not activated when I'm softly shadow boxing.


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> Tyson is just one example. Every elite boxer, head moving or not, drops the left.



Yeah. When they know they can. Which they know because they are an elite boxer.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> Yeah. When they know they can. Which they know because they are an elite boxer.



You are assuming they want to do it. They don't. Nobody wants to expose their chin and drop their left, regardless of which level they're boxing in (Roy Jones jr is an exception).


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> They are both related to muscle memory.


I can intentionally drop my left to make you think I have a pattern that I don't have.  When I see you trying to take advantage of me dropping my left, I can then set you by dropping my left. 
No one sets up another with flaring elbows.



Acronym said:


> I do one thing slow, another thing fast. Whatever I do soft does not carry over.


 Start at 10 percent speed.  Increase by 20%  focus on keeping good structure.  Increase by 20% again (now you are at 50%)  focus on keeping the technique good.  Then increase by 20% more (now you are at 70%) If your structure falls apart then you need to focus more hat keeping good punching structure at that speed.  If your structure falls apart then that means you are trying to punch faster and harder than what you can keep together.  



Acronym said:


> Whatever instincts I have in action are not activated when I'm softly shadow boxing.


  The truth is that we don't have Instinct when it comes to fighting, which is why everyone trains and drills the skill sets.

Every great fighter was great because he trained.  Tyson was only as good as he was because of the training he had.


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> You are assuming they want to do it. They don't. Nobody wants to expose their chins and drop their left, regardless of which level they're boxing in (Roy Jones jr is an exception).



It is a bit easier to disguise a punch or cheat an angle if the arms are lower.

That is why guards drop when a boxer is striking unopposed. So that last flurry of punches before the other guy drops is quite often low and wide and everything you get taught not to do in boxing.

When you are in danger of getting hit. Hands come up.

This is also why if you see a Tyson highlights reel. He is dropping his hands. Because that is quite often the end of the fight.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> It is a bit easier to disguise a punch or cheat an angle if the arms are lower..



Be that as it may, the fact is that the left is just about never up when they throw serious right hands.. I will not be facing world championship contenders. Just as I'm weaker, so are my opponents.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> You are assuming they want to do it. They don't. Nobody wants to expose their chin and drop their left, regardless of which level they're boxing in (Roy Jones jr is an exception).


  This is why your elbows and what they do are not the same issue.

Exposing his chin on purpose.  Drops left and right





Exposing his chin on purpose, 





Exposing his chin on purpose


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> This is why your elbows and what they do are not the same issue.
> 
> Exposing his chin on purpose.  Drops left and right
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exposing his chin on purpose,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exposing his chin on purpose



They don't always do it on purpose, just as they don't always flare their elbows on purpose, yet still do it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> It is a bit easier to disguise a punch or cheat an angle if the arms are lower.


Yep. It looks open but it's not, and as soon as the opponent goes for it, they almost always regret it.



Acronym said:


> Be that as it may, the fact is that the left is just about never up when they throw serious right hands.. I will not be facing world championship contenders. Just as I'm weaker, so are my opponents.


I'm trying to stay on your elbow flare issue.  That has nothing to do with being weaker.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm trying to stay on your elbow flare issue.  That has nothing to do with being weaker.



He said that they are good enough to get away it with. I don't need to be as good as they are since my opponents aren't either.


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> They don't always do it on purpose, just as they don't always flare their elbows on purpose, yet still do it.



Your issue at the moment is not to try and emulate Prince nazeem.

You are trying to get a jab to land that doesn't result in having your own nose poked.

No there are boring high percentage ways of achieving this. And there are flash low percentage ways. It is up to you to find something that works.

I flare my elbows. But then I land jabs pretty easily. 

You don't land jabs easily or we wouldn't be having this discussion.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> Your issue at the moment is not to try and emulate Prince nazeem.
> 
> You are trying to get a jab to land that doesn't result in having your own nose poked.
> 
> No there are boring high percentage ways of achieving this. And there are flash low percentage ways. It is up to you to find something that works.



Well shadow boxing isn't the answer, otherwise I wouldn't be making this thread. Also, the higher I raise the jab the more I want to flare. My arm is telling me it needs room to rotate the fist. If I don't rotate the fist, it amounts to hammer jabs, which is not how you're supposed to do them.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> He said that they are good enough to get away it with. I don't need to be as good as they are since my opponents aren't either.


Which is why we have been offering simple suggestions that would greatly help you with the issue you are struggling with.  We spar too and many of us have successfully addressed the same issue you are having now.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> Which is why we have been offering simple suggestions that would greatly help you with the issue you are struggling with.  We spar too and many of us have successfully addressed the same issue you are having now.



You asked me if I flare it when I punch slowly. I don't. Doesn't that tell you that your advice doesn't work?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> I don't believe you could focus on my elbow and parry the punch at the same time, unless you got Usain Bolt reactions time. Just looking at the elbow doesn't tell you which punch is coming.


Anyone with experience should be able to. It's not so much focusing on the elbow as, you see the elbow going out and you know what punch is coming. Same way that some people use shoulder's to figure out when/what is coming and how to respond.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> You asked me if I flare it when I punch slowly. I don't. Doesn't that tell you that your advice doesn't work?


I also told you to increase your speed by 20% so that you can identify exactly at which speed your structure begins to fall apart.  Then to practice at keeping the structure at that speed.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Anyone with experience should be able to. It's not so much focusing on the elbow as, you see the elbow going out and you know what punch is coming. Same way that some people use shoulder's to figure out when/what is coming and how to respond.



You don't know which one. I can hook off it last second.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Anyone with experience should be able to. It's not so much focusing on the elbow as, you see the elbow going out and you know what punch is coming. Same way that some people use shoulder's to figure out when/what is coming and how to respond.


Or how some people give away their punch by double pumping there hands before they throw the punch.  Or like how some people tense up before a punch.


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> Well shadow boxing isn't the answer, otherwise I wouldn't be making this thread. Also, the higher I raise the jab the more I want to flare. My arm is telling me it needs room to rotate the fist. If I don't rotate the fist, it amounts to hammer jabs, which is not how you're supposed to do them.



The problem is at the moment the way you strike you are one gigantic target. 

And coincidentally you have issues with getting picked off in jab exchanges. 

You need to move in a way that denies your oponant the opportunity to tee off on you. 

And getting faster and developing the perfect jab won't actually fix that to any extent that you want. 

Because everything else will still be wrong. You will still be stationary, standing in the wrong spot and taking too long to transition from thought in to action. 

And this will mean before you land perfect jab you will have eaten too many punches to have made that worth the effort. 

Shadow sparring will help you move in a way that lets you throw that jab from a position that just might make you a bit harder to counter.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> You don't know which one. I can hook off it last second.


You can hook a jab at the last second?


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> I also told you to increase your speed by 20% so that you can identify exactly at which speed your structure begins to fall apart.  Then to practice at keeping the structure at that speed.



If I look into the mirror I never flare it regardless of speed. It's when I don't look at myself and move freely that it flares, inevitably


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> I have shadow boxed for 6 months elbows in and it didn't do a damn thing to my muscle memory. That's also why you see technique diluted whenever boxers step into the ring..


Here's the issue. You did it just shadow boxing. You don't get feedback from shadow boxing. 

Do the drill for a couple months each day, and slowly build up your speed to real time. As you do you'll now have muscle memory for it 'at speed'. The longer you do it, the less likely that you'll flare out when you start getting tired (or I guess the more tired you'll have to be to flare out). 

Although it sounds kind of like you're just getting defensive about the issue rather than taking feedback from people that have seen improvements through the strategies we're suggesting.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> You can hook a jab at the last second?



Yes.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> The problem is at the moment the way you strike you are one gigantic target.
> 
> And coincidentally you have issues with getting picked off in jab exchanges.
> 
> You need to move in a way that denies your oponant the opportunity to tee off on you.


Now we are in another world. Footwork, headwork, body movement.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> You don't know which one. I can hook off it last second.


People don't hook with their elbows or shoulders in the same way as a jab. If you hook there, it's not going to have too much power, and won't be a 'real hook' so it'll be blocked the same way a jab is.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Now we are in another world. Footwork, headwork, body movement.



Yeah.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> The problem is at the moment the way you strike you are one gigantic target..



I'm a target for feinting "a backfist" and then throwing a right hand faster than the average human can react?

explain..


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> Tyson is just one example. Every elite boxer, head moving or not, drops the left.


A lot of that comes to tactics. Keeping your guard up all match is tiring, even if you're just going three rounds. Besides the baiting already mentioned, people drop it to help conserve energy, when they feel safe doing it. A lot of times that's when they're on the offense and don't think their opponent can/will counter. Sometimes they get it wrong. But that's an issue of muscle fatigue/tactic rather than muscle memory/problems with drills.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> Yes.


I don't think I've ever seen anyone hook a jab.  Jabs are linear so with me just visualizing it. if you were 100% committed to the jab and hooked it, then you would miss my face..  Something going straight to the target then curving at the last second. I've pulled my jabs, and I've redirect my jabs, but none of those were 100% committed.  When I fully commit to a jab it just goes straight, hit or miss.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> I'm a target for feinting "a backfist" and then throwing a right hand faster than the average human can react?
> 
> explain..


I think you're underestimating either the time needed to react in a fight, or the reaction abilities of boxers. And a lot of it comes down to telegraphing, which gives you just that little bit extra time to react.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If you hook there, it's not going to have too much power, and won't be a 'real hook' so it'll be blocked the same way a jab is.



Hook jabs aren't power shots, but they are enough to annoy the person and they do land. You won't block it at all because you will be expecting a linear strike. That's why people use it.


----------



## drop bear

Acronym said:


> I'm a target for feinting "a backfist" and then throwing a right hand faster than the average human can react?
> 
> explain..



A right hand after a jab isn't exactly unexpected. What if I parry the jab, throw my own jab, move off to the right to avoid the right hand. And get this, because this is the super secret to boxing. 

Before you throw the right hand. 

Then I don't have to be faster than the average human. I just appear faster.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> I'm a target for feinting "a backfist" and then throwing a right hand faster than the average human can react?
> 
> explain..


maybe this is where your flare is coming from.  This sounds like a hybrid punch and not a jab.  This punch starts with a back fist motion and is altered.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think I've ever seen anyone hook a jab.  Jabs are linear so with me just visualizing it. if you were 100% committed to the jab and hooked it, then you would miss my face..  Something going straight to the target then curving at the last second. I've pulled my jabs, and I've redirect my jabs, but none of those were 100% committed.  When I fully commit to a jab it just goes straight, hit or miss.


The closest I could see is the looping fists in some arts, which aren't really jabs, or an ear clap that's technically hooking when you miss the jab, but that's not legal in boxing.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think I've ever seen anyone hook a jab.  .



Because you haven't boxed a day in your life. Hooking off the jab is standard practise.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> Hook jabs aren't power shots, but they are enough to annoy the person and they do land. You won't block it at all because you will be expecting a linear strike. That's why people use it.


Are you suggesting just a jab where when you miss you swing your fist sideways? That would only work if they dodged by swaying their head left/right, and even then I can't imagine that being anywhere near powerful enough to disrupt me. Maybe it would work in light contact sparring where the people don't realize the lack of power? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're talking about.


----------



## JowGaWolf




----------



## drop bear

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> People don't hook with their elbows or shoulders in the same way as a jab. If you hook there, it's not going to have too much power, and won't be a 'real hook' so it'll be blocked the same way a jab is.



Look. You sort of can. Throw a feint jab and then hook. Or a feint hook and then jab.


----------



## Acronym

[


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Are you suggesting just a jab where when you miss you swing your fist sideways? That would only work if they dodged by swaying their head left/right, and even then I can't imagine that being anywhere near powerful enough to disrupt me. Maybe it would work in light contact sparring where the people don't realize the lack of power? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're talking about.



Nothing to do with missing. Hooking right before impact.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> Look. You sort of can. Throw a feint jab and then hook. Or a feint hook and then jab.


@Acronym Do you mean this? 




If so I was misunderstanding what you were saying-thought you meant turning the jab into a hook at distance when it failed. The thing in the video can work as a feint, but I don't see how it would fix your issue of telegraphing the jab. And if you do it often enough to overcome a bad jab, people will just know it's coming-it'll only work consistently (against high level boxers) if you have both a good jab and a good hook.


----------



## drop bear

In any event if you are fighting like a rockum sockum robot. 

You get hit a lot more than you should.






This is regardless of elbow flare.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Acronym Do you mean this?



Nope. I've explained it the best I can


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> You don't know which one. I can hook off it last second.


This is what you said.

This is what I see a 2 strikes.  I don't see hook off it at last second.    I see this as a jab then a hook and not a jab that hooks at the last second.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> A right hand after a jab isn't exactly unexpected. What if I parry the jab, throw my own jab, move off to the right to avoid the right hand. And get this, because this is the super secret to boxing.
> 
> Before you throw the right hand.
> 
> Then I don't have to be faster than the average human. I just appear faster.



Jab followed by right hand account for I would say at least 80% of the knockouts in boxing. The more tired the fighter gests, the easier combos slip. And it's usually the basic combos that do it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> Nope. I've explained it the best I can


But what you're explaining doesn't really work. Can you provide a video of someone doing it so we know what you're talking about?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> When I fully commit to a jab it just goes straight, hit or miss.


You can also commit your jab only when your fist touches on your opponent's face. It's pretty much like 2 steps process:

1. touch - arm go fist, body follow.
2. punch - body push arm.

In another post, I have stated I don't know whether average boxers will do this or not.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


>



Terrible for kickboxing by the way. You get your leg kicked off.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> This is what you said.
> 
> This is what I see a 2 strikes.  I don't see hook off it at last second.    I see this as a jab then a hook and not a jab that hooks at the last second.



It is not what I said. Hooking of the jab that I'm. Referring to is one strike.. The hook is disguised by a jab trajectory.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If so I was misunderstanding what you were saying-thought you meant turning the jab into a hook at distance when it failed.


It wasn't just you.  I read his statement and thought the same thing because he said "last second" and that the person wouldn't know which direction it comes from.  So I'm over here thinking that someone throws a Jab that turns into a hook.  The first punch is still a hook it doesn't turn


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> Terrible for kickboxing by the way. You get your leg kicked off.


Had to watch the video because of that. Definitely agree.


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> Terrible for kickboxing by the way. You get your leg kicked off.



Comparing sports is meaningless.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Terrible for kickboxing by the way. You get your leg kicked off.


ha ha ha. you see I'm trying to stay on topic today. Elbow flares lol.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> It wasn't just you.  I read his statement and thought the same thing because he said "last second" and that the person wouldn't know which direction it comes from.  So I'm over here thinking that someone throws a Jab that turns into a hook.  The first punch is still a hook it doesn't turn


I think that is what he's saying. I just don't get how since they are two entirely different punches from start, middle, execution and follow through.

I really think we need a video to find it. Tried googling it to see if I'm just being dumb/know it by a different name/never called it that, but can't find anything like he's describing.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think that is what he's saying. I just don't get how since they are two entirely different punches from start, middle, execution and follow through.



The arm launch is a normal jab, then you circle the last moment with your fist to a hooking motion. This is impossible to read.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But what you're explaining doesn't really work. Can you provide a video of someone doing it so we know what you're talking about?


I'm with you on this.  I like to think of myself as being good with visuals, except when Wang post one of his videos, then I get lost.. lol.  But everything else I feel like I can follow.  But I'm having difficulty in picture this punch in a way that makes sense.  

I can see starting the punch off like a back fist and landing it like straight punch, but I don't like the feel of the structure when I do that.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> The arm launch is a normal jab, then you circle the last moment with your fist to a hooking motion. This is impossible to read.


But that does almost no damage. It's not something anyone would ever be threatened by in an actual match or even hard sparring. And does nothing to fix the flaw of you telegraphing.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> The arm launch is a normal jab, then you circle the last moment with your fist to a hooking motion. This is impossible to read.


I understand what you are saying here, but I would still have to see it.   I train in a circular fighting system that flows straight punches into circular punches and out of the 100+ techniques in the system we don't have anything that moves the way that you just explain.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But that does almost no damage. It's not something anyone would ever be threatened by in an actual match or even hard sparring. And does nothing to fix the flaw of you telegraphing.


you sound like you just tried that motion lol


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But that does almost no damage. It's not something anyone would ever be threatened by in an actual match or even hard sparring. And does nothing to fix the flaw of you telegraphing.


@Acronym The only way this would do damage is if you shift your body into it, and hook your arm rather than your fist at the end. And doing that would require footwork and strategy to prevent the other guy from reading it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> you sound like you just tried that motion lol


I had my basement cleared earlier for online BJJ class. Currently in that space just practicing 5-10 jab/hook combos and coming back here to see updates then trying new ones to figure this out.


----------



## Acronym

I


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Acronym The only way this would do damage is if you shift yor body into it, and hook your arm rather than your fist at the end. And doing that would require footwork and strategy to prevent the other guy from reading it.



I already told you that it's not a power shot. It's not meant to do damage, it's meant to get through the guard. Any impact is better than no impact. It all scores, and can be followed up if there is a sluggish response. It can also be used effectively if a fighter is on the ropes and shells up for jabs and straight rights


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Acronym The only way this would do damage is if you shift your body into it, and hook your arm rather than your fist at the end. And doing that would require footwork and strategy to prevent the other guy from reading it.


The closest I could get with this was fake a jab and then hook but that's not turning a jab into a hook


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> I
> 
> 
> I already told you that it's not a power shot. It's not meant to do damage, it's meant to get through the guard. Any impact is better than no impact. It all scores, and can be followed up if there is a sluggish response. It can also be used effectively if a fighter is on the ropes and shells up for jabs and straight rights


Are you talking point sparring?

Edit:  If you are talking about point sparring then, now I understand my confusion and why I'm confused.


----------



## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> Are you talking point sparring?



No. It's Lennox Lewis favourite shot in boxing according to himself, although he tends to stick with the jab.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha. you see I'm trying to stay on topic today. Elbow flares lol.


----------



## drop bear

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I had my basement cleared earlier for online BJJ class. Currently in that space just practicing 5-10 jab/hook combos and coming back here to see updates then trying new ones to figure this out.



Sort of like a question mark kick?

It is definitely goober if you don't retract after the jab.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> No. It's Lennox Lewis favourite shot in boxing according to himself, although he tends to stick with the jab.


The only thing that I saw was a jab that turned into an upper cut.

Is this what you are talking about?


----------



## Acronym

drop bear said:


> Sort of like a question mark kick?



Not a bad analogy.


----------



## Buka

Acronym, how much time have you had sparring in boxing?


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Sort of like a question mark kick?
> 
> It is definitely goober if you don't retract after the jab.


I tried that one too, but it's still not a jab,  It's more like a feint then hook. Which isn't the same as Turning a jab into a hook at the last second.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can also commit your jab only when your fist touches on your opponent's face. It's pretty much like 2 steps process:
> 
> 1. touch - arm go fist, body follow.
> 2. punch - body push arm.
> 
> In another post, I have stated I don't know whether average boxers will do this or not.


I've seen both of these in boxing.


----------



## Acronym

Funnily enough even though I'm a much worse kicker than I am puncher, when I switched to a mid section roundhouse kick, I nailed this taller dude right in the stomach, and he grimaced badly. I was just annoyed that he leaned back whenever I punched and that i couldn't get to him like I did everybody else. And he wasn't a boxer. I actually asked him afterwards.

Then I joined a boxing gym and I could tagg intermediate level guys at will with my speed.. I guess they still haven't had enough sparring experience. They sure punched a lot better on the bag than me but in sparring they were complete target practise and couldn't even hit me.

That's where i learned there's zero correlation between bag work and sparring. I thought they would beat me up.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> I
> 
> 
> I already told you that it's not a power shot. It's not meant to do damage, it's meant to get through the guard. Any impact is better than no impact. It all scores, and can be followed up if there is a sluggish response. It can also be used effectively if a fighter is on the ropes and shells up for jabs and straight rights


No impact and retracting is better than impact that does nothing and slows down your retraction. 

And in general people aren't going to be shelling up if you're telegraphing.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> Funnily enough even though I'm a much worse kicker than I am puncher, when I switched to a mid section roundhouse kick, I nailed this taller dude right in the stomach, and he grimaced badly. I was just annoyed that he leaned back whenever I punched and that i couldn't get to him like I did everybody else. And he wasn't a boxer. I actually asked him afterwards.
> 
> Then I joined a boxing gym and I could tagg intermediate level guys at will with my speed.. I guess they still haven't had enough sparring experience. They sure punched a lot better on the bag than me but in sparring they were complete target practise and couldn't even hit me.
> 
> That's where i learned there's zero correlation between bag work and sparring. I thought they would beat me up.


That doesn't mean there's zero correlation. If it did you wouldn't see basically every boxer/trainer do it. But of the two, experience is going to give you more in sparring than bagwork.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> No. It's Lennox Lewis favourite shot in boxing according to himself, although he tends to stick with the jab.


You got a video of it?


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That doesn't mean there's zero correlation. If it did you wouldn't see basically every boxer/trainer do it. But of the two, experience is going to give you more in sparring than bagwork.



They don't hit bags to improve their sparring.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> They don't hit bags to improve their sparring.


Bagwork is used to improve your fighting. It helps generate power and speed, lets you work your combinations and footwork and helps you improve technique with feedback. It's just not enough without actually sparring as well, and the experience you get from another person.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Bagwork is used to improve your fighting. It helps generate power and speed, lets you work your combinations and footwork and helps you improve technique with feedback. It's just not enough without actually sparring as well, and the experience you get from another person.



Intermediates have sparred. If you compared their bag work, pad work, shadow boxing to mine it was D-level vs B-level. If there was a correlation they should be able to touch me. I allowed them to touch me after a while..

They were fluid, powerful, and consistent on anything they hit that did not hit them on the other hand.

bag work does not do anything to timing, distancing, and reflexes which without it, you're lost.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> They were fluid, powerful, and consistent on anything they hit that did not hit them on the other hand.
> 
> bag work does not do anything to timing, distancing, and reflexes which without it, you're lost.


Distance it can, but you're right it doesn't help out timing/reflexes/reactions. It does, hiwever, help all the other parts of fighting/sparring I mentioned above. Including things like throwing proper jabs.

Take a look at someone who only spars, and you'll see that they stagnate at a certain level. 

Buka asked you this already but either you missed it or I missed your response. How long have you been boxing? And what did you do before that? Also what are you considering intermediate? To me intermediate is between 2-5 years on average, depending on training time.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Distance it can, but you're right it doesn't help out timing/reflexes/reactions. It does, hiwever, help all the other parts of fighting/sparring I mentioned above. Including things like throwing proper jabs.
> 
> Take a look at someone who only spars, and you'll see that they stagnate at a certain level.
> 
> Buka asked you this already but either you missed it or I missed your response. How long have you been boxing? And what did you do before that? Also what are you considering intermediate? To me intermediate is between 2-5 years on average, depending on training time.



I don't define intermediates, my boxing club did. It's a separate group that I was allowed to train with. I did Taekwondo for 4 years before that. I sparred once or twice against these guys.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> I don't define intermediates, my boxing club did. It's a separate group that I was allowed to train with. I did Taekwondo for 4 years before that. I sparred once or twice against these guys.


Okay. So what does your boxing club consider intermediates?

If going in with 4 years experience against people with 6months-1year (what some clubs consider intermediate) than you should be wrecking all of them. If you aren't it would mean that your TKD was either purely sport TKD or really bad.


----------



## Acronym

[


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay. So what does your boxing club consider intermediates?
> 
> If going in with 4 years experience against people with 6months-1year (what some clubs consider intermediate) than you should be wrecking all of them. If you aren't it would mean that your TKD was either purely sport TKD or really bad.



Trainer decides. I think it was between one and a half and two years.

If you've seen the guard and boxing on display by TKDoins, you wouldn't say that. They literally have zero idea when I can punch them in the face, at any time, and this goes all the way up to masters. And this includes the style I trained which allowed face punches. Also no hooks allowed in this particular organization.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> 
> Trainer decides. I think it was between one and a half and two years.
> 
> If you've seen the guard and boxing on display by TKDoins, you wouldn't say that. They literally have zero idea when I can punch them in the face, at any time, and this goes all the way up to masters. And this includes the style I trained which allowed face punches. Also no hooks allowed in this particular organization.


That really depends on the TKD that you've trained. But 4 years training TKD, should mean that you should be able to beat under two years trained boxing. Which apparently it does mean for you. Keep in mind the difference in amount of training time before deciding universal training tools are ineffective.

The no hooks allowed makes a lot of sense though. It explains why you feel you can turn a jab into a hook at the last minute and have it be effective-your experience doesn't include actual hook punches (which used properly can be devastating).


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That really depends on the TKD that you've trained.



I trained the traditional ITF style.



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> . . Keep in mind the difference in amount of training time before deciding universal training tools are ineffective.



I don't know what that means.




Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The no hooks allowed makes a lot of sense though. It explains why you feel you can turn a jab into a hook at the last minute and have it be effective-your experience doesn't include actual hook punches (which used properly can be devastating).



No hooks or uppercuts allowed in sparring. We did it on pads. 

Sigh..  It's not my invention to hook off the jab. I don't believe you boxed either. I specifically requested guys who have boxed for a long time in the OP


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> I don't know what that means.


What I'm saying is that 4 years in TKD should result in you beating 1.5 years of boxing pretty regularly in sparring. If it doesn't that means there's an issue in your TKD sparring.





> Sigh..  It's not my invention to hook off the jab. I don't believe you boxed either. I specifically requested guys who have boxed for a long time in the OP



You're right..it's not your invention to hook off the jab. But it is to hook in the way that you're describing it. I did box for 4-5 years. That's outside of my other 19 years of training in various arts (23 if you include the boxing). But what you're describing sounds like a waste of effort, and wouldn't impact anyone with serious training/experience in boxing. Unless I'm misunderstanding it but for some reason you've ignored every request to provide a video of what you're explaining so I can't know if I'm understanding you right.

If you provide that video, I'll be happy to discuss it. Until then, I can't picture any way that turning a jab into a hook at the last second would be  helpful to the puncher.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I can't picture any way that turning a jab into a hook at the last second would be  helpful to the puncher.



For the same reason it can be effective to disuise and confuse chambers to various kicks thrown.​


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

@Acronym Out of curiosity I went back to your OP to see what your concern was and to make sure I was still on topic. Your first post was "
So in the past I did the classical mistake of elbow flare but now I've tried different ways to side step that and accept a reduction in power.
Would it be a good analogy to think of a non flaring jab as a poke? This way your shoulder won't flare since it's the forearm and shoulder doing the motions. How would you describe it?"

Which does not request at all people with experience in boxing. Your third post was "I had both but the elbow flare telegraphed it, even at my speed. So I'm gonna settle with a less powerful one. It will get gradually more powerful." So you acknowledged that you telegraph your jab and that's an issue. I don't get why you're getting so defensive about it when people are telling you ways to fix that problem.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> For the same reason it can be effective to disuise and confuse chambers to various kicks thrown.​


With different chambers, like question mark kick/brazilian roundhouse, you're still getting a lot of power in it, so the kick is an actual threat. With turning a jab into a hook at the last second, all you have is arm strength, so there's no threat there and any experienced boxer will just ignore it and attack before you retract.


----------



## Acronym

Ö


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Acronym Out of curiosity I went back to your OP to see what your concern was and to make sure I was still on topic. Your first post was "
> So in the past I did the classical mistake of elbow flare but now I've tried different ways to side step that and accept a reduction in power.
> Would it be a good analogy to think of a non flaring jab as a poke? This way your shoulder won't flare since it's the forearm and shoulder doing the motions. How would you describe it?"
> 
> Which does not request at all people with experience in boxing. Your third post was "I had both but the elbow flare telegraphed it, even at my speed. So I'm gonna settle with a less powerful one. It will get gradually more powerful." So you acknowledged that you telegraph your jab and that's an issue. I don't get why you're getting so defensive about it when people are telling you ways to fix that problem.



My mistake. I did in the previous one..not this one


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> With different chambers, like question mark kick/brazilian roundhouse, you're still getting a lot of power in it, so the kick is an actual threat. With turning a jab into a hook at the last second, all you have is arm strength, so there's no threat there and any experienced boxer will just ignore it and attack before you retract.



You don't get much power from switching between different types of lead leg kicks either, like Bill Wallace did. Just because something is much less powerful doesn't mean it can't be effective.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What I'm saying is that 4 years in TKD should result in you beating 1.5 years of boxing pretty regularly in sparring. If it doesn't that means there's an issue in your TKD sparring.



And I should be able to be comparable on the pads considering your thesis of correlation, and the amount of pad work with boxing we did in my TKD club.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> You don't get much power from switching between different types of lead leg kicks either, like Bill Wallace did. Just because something is much less powerful doesn't mean it can't be effective.


I'm not a tkd giy. But afaik each kick that he did ether had impact power or pushing power. If he threw a roundhouse with no power (i cant imagine that he did) i wouldn't care all that much. You're jab-hook claim to me is like if someone through a front  kick then sideswiped it when I dodge. Yeah it's technically hitting me. But not actually impacting  what I do next.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> And I should be able to be comparable on the pads considering your thesis of correlation, and the amount of pad work with boxing we did in my TKD club.


Theoretically yeah. I never visited your tkd school though.  But you should be better at both padwork and sparring than the 'intermediates' at the boxing club. Feok what you've stated I would gueas your tkd dojang spent too little time on bagwork, and your boxing club  doesn't soend enouch time on sparring.  But i haven't seen either in person so thats just assumptions from what you've said.


----------



## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> They don't hit bags to improve their sparring.


Bag work is for fitness, combinations and to hit at 100% which you can’t do in sparring. Also I fought for over 10 years and in that time I sparred maybe....3 times at most. All my training was done with bag, pad and drill work I very rarely sparred because sparring is more likely to get me injured and concussed before I fight so I just stopped doing it. Never affected me I won more than I lost


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Headhunter said:


> Bag work is for fitness, combinations and to hit at 100% which you can’t do in sparring. Also I fought for over 10 years and in that time I sparred maybe....3 times at most. All my training was done with bag, pad and drill work I very rarely sparred because sparring is more likely to get me injured and concussed before I fight so I just stopped doing it. Never affected me I won more than I lost


Not even light sparring? How often did you compete? And did you ever feel like your timing was off because you didn't tune up with sparring beforehand?


----------



## Acronym

[

.


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I would gueas your tkd dojang spent too little time on bagwork, and your boxing club  doesn't soend enouch time on sparring.  But i haven't seen either in person so thats just assumptions from what you've said.



Now you contradicted yourself. You previously claimed it was expected


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Now you contradicted yourself. You previously claimed it was expected


What did i say was expected that that contradicts?


----------



## Headhunter

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not even light sparring? How often did you compete? And did you ever feel like your timing was off because you didn't tune up with sparring beforehand?


 No always felt completely fine and idk once every few months at most sometimes a year in between sometimes more


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What did i say was expected that that contradicts?



That I would wreck them in sparring. Now you say that club probably didn't spar enough. Which is it gonna be?


----------



## Headhunter

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Acronym Out of curiosity I went back to your OP to see what your concern was and to make sure I was still on topic. Your first post was "
> So in the past I did the classical mistake of elbow flare but now I've tried different ways to side step that and accept a reduction in power.
> Would it be a good analogy to think of a non flaring jab as a poke? This way your shoulder won't flare since it's the forearm and shoulder doing the motions. How would you describe it?"
> 
> Which does not request at all people with experience in boxing. Your third post was "I had both but the elbow flare telegraphed it, even at my speed. So I'm gonna settle with a less powerful one. It will get gradually more powerful." So you acknowledged that you telegraph your jab and that's an issue. I don't get why you're getting so defensive about it when people are telling you ways to fix that problem.


He also made another thread asking how to throw a right hand yet according to him at least he’s untouchable in sparring


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> That I would wreck them in sparring. Now you say that club probably didn't spar enough. Which is it gonna be?


I don't see the contradiction. If you trained f9r 4 ysars you should be wrecking people with half that time in sparring. 

From what you've said about the boxing club it sounds like they don't spend enough time on sparring as well. But that's not  contradicting the above, it's an unrelated statement based on your questions/statements. 

On another note, you still havent shown a video of either a professional bocer or yourself  doing the jab-hook that you claim is a solution to your telegraphing, ir a professional doing it. Why is that?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> Sigh.. It's not my invention to hook off the jab. I don't believe you boxed either. I specifically requested guys who have boxed for a long time in the OP


Your original problem that you posted was about flaring elbows which is a common issue across many fighting systems.  It's not a boxing only problem  The fixes for flaring are also universal which is why I can take. The same things that have been said here are things experienced boxers would say.  We have even posted videos of boxers teaching the same things that we mentioned and covering the same points that we have brought up about flaring elbows.

The confusion that some of us are having is your description of "hook off the jab" vs "turning a jab into a hook."  It's fine if you got the description wrong and mean "hook off the jab"  it's also fine if you are saying the punch is in a pattern like a question mark.  We get that too.  But when you say you turn a jab into a hook at the last second, then it becomes a mechanical problem and not an issue about how much boxing one knows. 

8 pages of confusion could be cleared up with a simple video of you demonstrating the type of punch that you are talking about.  Based on what I've seen so far, you have been getting solid advice from others.


----------



## Headhunter

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I don't see the contradiction. If you trained f9r 4 ysars you should be wrecking people with half that time in sparring.
> 
> From what you've said about the boxing club it sounds like they don't spend enough time on sparring as well. But that's not  contradicting the above, it's an unrelated statement based on your questions/statements.
> 
> On another note, you still havent shown a video of either a professional bocer or yourself  doing the jab-hook that you claim is a solution to your telegraphing, ir a professional doing it. Why is that?


If we’re talking about a jab hook off the same hand I do play with that combo. 2 ways one the hook is quick and short no power at all more of a set up punch just like a jabL back knuckle or you can do it jab then retract then throw a full hook which is very slow and leaves you open and exposed. Neither are great combos I work them on the bag just for fun but doubt I’d use them for real


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I don't see the contradiction. If you trained f9r 4 ysars you should be wrecking people with half that time in sparring.
> 
> From what you've said about the boxing club it sounds like they don't spend enough time on sparring as well. But that's not  contradicting the above, it's an unrelated statement based on your questions/statements.
> 
> On another note, you still havent shown a video of either a professional bocer or yourself  doing the jab-hook that you claim is a solution to your telegraphing, ir a professional doing it. Why is that?



what basis do you have for claiming they didn't spend enough time sparring if you at the same time expect them to be wrecked by me?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> what basis do you have for claiming they didn't spend enough time sparring if you at the same time expect them to be wrecked by me?


You stated they spent most of their time on bagwork and their sparring proved the bagwork didn't work. If they spent an equal amount of time on their soarring and bagwork, you wouldn't be able to make that claim.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Headhunter said:


> If we’re talking about a jab hook off the same hand I do play with that combo. 2 ways one the hook is quick and short no power at all more of a set up punch just like a jabL back knuckle or you can do it jab then retract then throw a full hook which is very slow and leaves you open and exposed. Neither are great combos I work them on the bag just for fun but doubt I’d use them for real


But neither of those are what he's talking about. Both have been suggested and hes denied that that's what he's referring to.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What I'm saying is that 4 years in TKD should result in you beating 1.5 years of boxing pretty regularly in sparring. If it doesn't that means there's an issue in your TKD sparring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right..it's not your invention to hook off the jab. But it is to hook in the way that you're describing it. I did box for 4-5 years. That's outside of my other 19 years of training in various arts (23 if you include the boxing). But what you're describing sounds like a waste of effort, and wouldn't impact anyone with serious training/experience in boxing. Unless I'm misunderstanding it but for some reason you've ignored every request to provide a video of what you're explaining so I can't know if I'm understanding you right.
> 
> If you provide that video, I'll be happy to discuss it. Until then, I can't picture any way that turning a jab into a hook at the last second would be  helpful to the puncher.


@Headhunter which part of this do you dislike? Me stato g my boxing experience, or me requesting a video for clarificarion to the move he's been referring to?


----------



## Headhunter

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Headhunter which part of this do you dislike? Me stato g my boxing experience, or me requesting a video for clarificarion to the move he's been referring to?


Whoops my bad my finger must’ve touched the dislike button by accident. I didn’t even read that post lol. Fixed it Now lol


----------



## Headhunter

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But neither of those are what he's talking about. Both have been suggested and hes denied that that's what he's referring to.


Could be a fake jab then turn to get them to protect the centre line then uses that to come round the side for a hook but no reason why this guy can’t put a video. He’s already posted a few of his right hand so he doesn’t mind putting up videos


----------



## JowGaWolf

Headhunter said:


> Could be a fake jab then turn to get them to protect the centre line then uses that to come round the side for a hook but no reason why this guy can’t put a video. He’s already posted a few of his right hand so he doesn’t mind putting up videos


I mentioned that earlier, but he said it's not that.


----------



## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You stated they spent most of their time on bagwork and their sparring proved the bagwork didn't work. If they spent an equal amount of time on their soarring and bagwork, you wouldn't be able to make that claim.



I made that assumption. You on the other hand cannot make that assumption since you feel the outcome was expected either way due to the difference in years training.


----------



## jobo

Acronym said:


> How long have you boxed? You write like a TMA theorizing.


 as someone who came on asking for advice, your rather belligerent to the people giving advice

i spend some time coaching young men in boxing, if im a good coach is another matter, but boxing isnt that complicated

mr bolt has a reaction time of about a tenth of a second,
any thing below that is considered super human and a false start


 a half second is ponderously slow, most people are between the two, but there are quite a lot of athletic young men who are around the 2 tenths mark

obviously their reaction time start at the moment they predict you punch, not at the moment you throw it. if they predict wrongly, then you should hit them, which is where the deceptiveness come in, if they predict correctly then you just look very very slow, they have moved almost before the punch is thrown

your experiences with this bout is difficult to analysis with out seeing it, despite what BD says

if the guy has just got faster reactions than you, given an aprox skill level, he will out jab you, theres little to be done but go away and work on your reaction speed,

 if your helping him by telegraphing your intention and or being predictable then thats an area of improvement for you

but once you have got your self on a level playing field, the speed of the punch is still crucial, it needs to travel faster than his ability to react, so that nominally 2 tenths of a second, thats generally why jabs land so often, thers no set up moving to tip him off,they are the fastest punch and the laws of kinetics also say that the faster an object is moving through space the more force they impart, now boxing is a bit more complex than simple objects colliding, but not that much and an increase in terminal velocity will impart more force

provided your fast enough to hit him at all


----------



## Acronym

jobo said:


> as someone who came on asking for advice, your rather belligerent to the people giving advice
> 
> i spend some time coaching young men in boxing, if im a good coach is another matter, but boxing isnt that complicated
> 
> mr bolt has a reaction time of about a tenth of a second,
> any thing below that is considered super human and a false start
> 
> 
> a half second is ponderously slow, most people are between the two, but there are quite a lot of athletic young men who are around the 2 tenths mark
> 
> obviously their reaction time start at the moment they predict you punch, not at the moment you throw it. if they predict wrongly, then you should hit them, which is where the deceptiveness come in, if they predict correctly then you just look very very slow, they have moved almost before the punch is thrown
> 
> your experiences with this bout is difficult to analysis with out seeing it, despite what BD says
> 
> if the guy has just got faster reactions than you, given an aprox skill level, he will out jab you, theres little to be done but go away and work on your reaction speed,
> 
> if your helping him by telegraphing your intention and or being predictable then thats an area of improvement for you
> 
> but once you have got your self on a level playing field, the speed of the punch is still crucial, it needs to travel faster than his ability to react, so that nominally 2 tenths of a second, thats generaly why jabs land so often, they are the fastest punch and the laws of kinetics also say that the faster an object is moving through space the more force they impart, now boxing is a bit more complex than simple objects colliding, but not that much and increase in terminal velocity will impart more force



More theory lol.


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> More theory lol.


Well yeah this is an Internet forum....can’t do much more on the Internet can we


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> More theory lol.


 well yea, your problem is the misapplication of theory

i mean its no skin of my nose if you keep getting your **** kicked, the little i can tell from them short vids you posted is your no sort of boxer, everything about your movement is wrong, you need some theory or not much will improve


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> well yea, your problem is the misapplication of theory
> 
> i mean its no skin of my nose if you keep getting your **** kicked, the little i can tell from them short vids you posted is your no sort of boxer, everything about your movement is wrong, you need some theory or not much will improve



Since you are heavy on reaction time.

This was my best score.


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## Acronym

Here's the test

The Christmas reaction test | Hillarys


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## Acronym

*Athletes have a reaction time up to 0.155 milliseconds, while a a well-rested person will respond within 0.156 to 250 milliseconds, according to research from Stanford University*


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> *Athletes have a reaction time up to 0.155 milliseconds, while a a well-rested person will respond within 0.156 to 250 milliseconds, according to research from Stanford University*


thats what i just said, or cant you convert milliseconds to 10ths


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> thats what i just said, or cant you convert milliseconds to 10ths



In other words much slower than my punch. I can tell them it's coming and they still won't be able to parry it.


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> Here's the test
> 
> The Christmas reaction test | Hillarys


Lol you’re using a Santa Christmas game as an official stat?


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## Acronym

Headhunter said:


> Lol you’re using a Santa Christmas game as an official stat?



That's the one referenced.

Do you have the reaction speed of a drunk person? | Daily Mail Online


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> In other words much slower than my punch. I can tell them it's coming and they still won't be able to parry it.


well sort of, and thats what ive just said as well, sort of.

if they cant predict your jab to give them early warning of it and your jab travels the distance in a shorter time than their reaction speed then they cant avoid it, if they are avoiding it, your doing it wrong

much of boxing like much of driving fast is on anticipation of events, if they anticipate your jab then they are moving before the punch is released, reaction time is also made up of thinking time and then your ability to send nerve impulses, if its a simple task like pushing a buzzer, or moving your head, then theres little thinking time,  for situation where there is an actual decision to be made, like brake or steer,you can react fast, but wrongly and it ends badly


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> well sort of, and thats what ive just said as well, sort of.
> 
> if they cant predict your jab to give them early warning of it and your jab travels the distance in a shorter time than their reaction speed then they cant avoid it



The point is that even if my opponent is purposely trying to avoid my jab and being defensive, he will have a harder time with the elbow flare missing. The dude I was referring to had no proactive game himself.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> The point is that even if my opponent is purposely trying to avoid my jab and being defensive, he will have a harder time with the elbow flare missing. The dude I was referring to had no proactive game himself.




im not sure how much real world difference it makes, he is all ready anticipate a punch quite possibly a jab, your stutter is at least half the problem, as its putting a second on your punch time, of course your not hitting him, my gran could avoid that

give him an elbow flare to react to and then hit him with the other hand


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> im not sure how much real world difference it makes, he is all ready anticipate a punch quite possibly a jab, your stutter is at least half the problem, as its putting a second on your punch time, of course your not hitting him, my gran could avoid that
> 
> give him an elbow flare to react to and then hit him with the other hand



So you think I stop and then jab just because I did it in the youtube clip? That would be even worse than a physical telegraph. So no I do not do that in sparring.


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> give him an elbow flare to react to and then hit him with the other hand



That's what I did in one of the clips. This thread is strictly about the jab.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> That's what I did in one of the clips. This thread is strictly about the jab.


 but a jab is mostly a set up punch, if you set him up by pretending to throw a jab, then thats at least as useful as throwing a jab

get some one vaguely athletic to hold a focus mit for you

they have to anticipate your moving and move the mit before you hit it with a jab

they shouldnt be able to do that as above

then practice, you will naturally adjust your movements to compensate, if you cant get to the point where your hitting more often than not, give up boxing at least as a competitive event


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> but a jab is mostly a set up punch, if you set him up by pretending to throw a jab, then thats at least as useful as throwing a jab
> 
> get some one vaguely athletic to hold a focus mit for you
> 
> they have to anticipate your moving and move the mit before you hit it with a jab
> 
> they shouldnt be able to do that as above
> 
> then practice, you will naturally adjust your movements to compensate, if you cant get to the point where your hitting more often than not, give up boxing at least as a competitive event



It's not in boxing though. It all depends how good it is. The jab can be your most frequent shot. The rules promote it since there is no kicking long or mid range.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> It's not in boxing though. It all depends how good it is. The jab can be your most frequent shot. The rules promote it since there is no kicking long or mid range.


are you actually being coached in boxing ? coz this has all the hail marks of someone thinking they can learn on their own in their bed room,

which as you are completely unreceptive to anything anyone has to say, means that your going nowhere fast, sort of rat mark two

ask your coach if you have one, if not get one, there a real limit anyone can do over the internet particularly as you keep arguing the point

if you look at say Antony Joshua, he is not a very good boxer, but is world champion mostly on the fact he is to big and strong for most people and he just jabs them to death and then when they slow down he knocks them over 



you can win a fight just jabbing, if the other guy is out jabbing you, stop jabbing your going to loose


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## Headhunter

jobo said:


> are you actually being coached in boxing ? coz this has all the hail marks of someone thinking they can learn on their own in their bed room,
> 
> which as you are completely unreceptive to anything anyone has to say, means that your going nowhere fast, sort of rat mark two
> 
> ask your coach if you have one, if not get one, there a real limit anyone can do over the internet particularly as you keep arguing the point
> 
> if you look at say Antony Joshua, he is not a very good boxer, but is world champion mostly on the fact he is to big and strong for most people and he just jabs them to death and then when they slow down he knocks them over
> 
> 
> 
> you can win a fight just jabbing, if the other guy is out jabbing you, stop jabbing your going to loose


Apparently he beats up everyone in the gym


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## Acronym

Headhunter said:


> Apparently he beats up everyone in the gym



The intermediates were no match, and yeah I just jabbed them or hooked. I was not allowed to spar the competitors because my bag work was so bad. I hope the Mod reads that, who thinks there is any correlation at all.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> The intermediates were no match, and yeah I just jabbed them or hooked. I was not allowed to spar the competitors because my bag work was so bad. I hope the Mod reads that, who thinks there is any correlation at all.


so in short your beating up intermediaries, but cant beat up a hanging bag


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> so in short your beating up intermediaries, but cant beat up a hanging bag



Yup, much harder than banging a human. Especially to get any flow.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> Yup, much harder than banging a human. Especially to get any flow.


yea thats the problem, those bag are really cunning


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> The intermediates were no match, and yeah I just jabbed them or hooked. I was not allowed to spar the competitors because my bag work was so bad. I hope the Mod reads that, who thinks there is any correlation at all.


Lol so all these boxing trainers and kickboxing trainers and MMA trainers and pro fighters who hit bags....they’re all wrong but the guy who needs help throwing a right cross knows the secret....ah


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> yea thats the problem, those bag are really cunning



They teach you distance according to the mod. Very cunning.


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> They teach you distance according to the mod. Very cunning.


You think a lot of yourself don’t you


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## Acronym

Headhunter said:


> You think a lot of yourself don’t you



Yes


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> Yes


I’d be careful of that arrogance. There’s always someone better than you and one day you’ll end up sparring someone better and your arrogance will cause you to get dropped. Much better people than you have found that out the hard way


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## Acronym

Headhunter said:


> I’d be careful of that arrogance. There’s always someone better than you and one day you’ll end up sparring someone better and your arrogance will cause you to get dropped. Much better people than you have found that out the hard way



It's hard to say. I've only really been outpointed by strong fighters, so I have a hard time placing myself exactly. If the coach would have allowed me to spar his competitors I could have gotten a better picture about my potential. So that bummed me out.


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> It's hard to say. I've only really been outpointed by strong fighters, so I have a hard time placing myself exactly. If the coach would have allowed me to spar his competitors I could have gotten a better picture about my potential. So that bummed me out.


Obviously doesn’t think you’re good enough to go against them


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## Acronym

.


Headhunter said:


> Obviously doesn’t think you’re good enough to go against them



He also didn't want to move me up to intermediates at first. So he has been wrong before.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> They teach you distance according to the mod. Very cunning.


its the internet, people make all sorts of claims, i give people the benefit of the doubt, but if your to be believed you need to have some consistency in what your saying

so far we have that you beat up with out effort people at the gym, but they wont let you spar with people who are competitors, but despite that you had a competitive bout with a guy, who in your own view wasn't very good and he beat you up

i suspect somewhere in there is the truth, probably the last bit

but, if your intent was ever to get advice from people on your punching technique, you've managed to suck a lot of the good will from the forum


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## Acronym

jobo said:


> ibut despite that you had a competitive bout with a guy, who in your own view wasn't very good and he beat you up



No. You fabricated that in your head.


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## jobo

Acronym said:


> No. You fabricated that in your head.


its clear one of us is fabricating things


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> .
> 
> 
> He also didn't want to move me up to intermediates at first. So he has been wrong before.


See maybe this is your problem. Your arrogance. If we can see it online. Your coach can certainly see it and if you’re not listening and going round saying your coach is wrong maybe that’s why you’re not improving and why you’re not ready to fight the top people. The coach is the boss he says your not ready sit down shut up and keep training. It’s his gym and his choice he doesn’t want you to fight them then you’re not fighting them


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## Headhunter

Acronym said:


> No. You fabricated that in your head.


Well no he didn’t because one post you’re saying the guy was dodging you and you couldn’t get off on him....next you’re saying you’re beating everyone with ease and have to go slower...quick tip. If you’re going to write stories remember what you’ve said in the previous chapters or you’ll make yourself look silly.


Me and jobo don’t agree on much but he’s right here


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## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> I can tell them it's coming and they still won't be able to parry it.


Well after this post, I guess that's it for me. No need to wonder anymore.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> It's hard to say. I've only really been outpointed by strong fighters, so I have a hard time placing myself exactly. If the coach would have allowed me to spar his competitors I could have gotten a better picture about my potential. So that bummed me out.



I'm really curious why you think that you know more than competitors/trainers. Maybe trust in them and see what happens.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> They teach you distance according to the mod. Very cunning.


Took me a second to realize I'm "the mod". But yes, they teach you distance along with a couple other things I stated. 

At this point you came here asking for advice, refusing all suggestions about  advice because you know better, avoid actual discussion about technique, and acknowledged your dismissing your trainers. Can't really see a point in continuing this.


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## Headhunter

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm really curious why you think that you know more than competitors/trainers. Maybe trust in them and see what happens.


Tbh I think he needs to fight pros to get taught a lesson in humility and to learn he’s not as good as he thinks


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## Headhunter

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Took me a second to realize I'm "the mod". But yes, they teach you distance along with a couple other things I stated.
> 
> At this point you came here asking for advice, refusing all suggestions about  advice because you know better, avoid actual discussion about technique, and acknowledged your dismissing your trainers. Can't really see a point in continuing this.


Oh this guys sooooo good he’s revolutionised boxing by saying there’s no use hitting bags.....damm if only Ali, Frazier, Tyson, mayweather, Dempsey, Lewis, Joshua, fury knew all the secrets that he knows


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## Headhunter

Hmm interesting I just caught one of your other threads and your points didn’t add up.
In one thread you seem like you are still active in TKD and worried about your hips. But in the this thread you claim you DID TKD for 4 years insinuating you don’t do it anymore....which is it


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## drop bear

Acronym said:


> So you think I stop and then jab just because I did it in the youtube clip? That would be even worse than a physical telegraph. So no I do not do that in sparring.



Would you be able to do a video with some movement?

So jabbing not from a static position.


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## Buka

Probably a misunderstanding of terms.

There are, after all, different forms of boxing. And writing about boxing online.


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## Acronym

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Took me a second to realize I'm "the mod". But yes, they teach you distance along with a couple other things I stated.
> 
> At this point you came here asking for advice, refusing all suggestions about  advice because you know better, avoid actual discussion about technique, and acknowledged your dismissing your trainers. Can't really see a point in continuing this.



What advice have I refused?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Acronym said:


> What advice have I refused?


I don't recall. That post was from a month ago and I don't feel like rereading 12 pages of a thread I already read. Sorry.


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## Acronym

drop bear said:


> Would you be able to do a video with some movement?
> 
> So jabbing not from a static position.



I don't have any cardio right now but here's a more dynamic jab.

I think the weight transfer is looking good.


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## JowGaWolf

Acronym said:


> I don't have any cardio right now but here's a more dynamic jab.
> 
> I think the weight transfer is looking good.


It looks like you are sending some power out through your elbow there.  I'm can't tell for sure.  I'm basing it on how your shirt sleeve pops up.  Hard to tell from one jab, but  thanks for the vid.


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## Acronym

JowGaWolf said:


> It looks like you are sending some power out through your elbow there.  I'm can't tell for sure.  I'm basing it on how your shirt sleeve pops up.  Hard to tell from one jab, but  thanks for the vid.



It's very fast and hard though. I think I'll keep it and when I want a linear one I will just throw it vertically with no corkscrew.

It also depends on what range I'm in.


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## Acronym

The problem I did sparring was that I jumped into jabs having bad habits from semi contact TMA, because our range was much longer.

I was told to learn forward with the jab in boxing and this makes it less telegraphed. It required a shorter fighting distance, which I am not used to. 

It think it will work better now but only one way to find out.


----------

