# What Really Works - Kathy Long



## Andrew Green (Jun 29, 2006)

> *What Really Works*
> *by Kathy Long*
> Im probably going to stir up some controversy here, but it needs to be said: Most of the self-defense techniques women learn are overrated. Unless your initial strike entails sticking your finger knuckle-deep in some guys eye or hitting him in the windpipe or groin, not much will have a significant effect in terms of deterring the assault.
> 
> Therefore, whenever I teach self-defense, I emphasize three things: knowledge of human anatomy, accuracy and commitment to executing the move. Mastering these elements will increase the likelihood of thwarting an attack on the street.



http://blackbeltmag.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=448


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

Glock-Fu works.


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## Eviscerate (Jun 29, 2006)

Im thinking to myself that composure would probably go a lot further than any set of techniques. Then again don't discount the psycological effects of composure and a stiff 1-2 combination, even in a womans hands. =)


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## shesulsa (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't disagree with most of what she said. I don't advocate most women punching most men, either - too easy to break the hand/wrist/fingers and then you're one weapon down.

But there are a few good uses for the feet ... not necessarily kicking.

I'd like to read more feedback from others on this as well.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

> In general, I dont recommend that women grapple with an attacker. Once youre on the ground, youre sacrificing yourself and any advantage you may have had while you were standing in terms of incapacitating him and/or running away. Its also a lot easier for two assailants to overcome you when youre down. However, if your attacker manages to get on top of you, you can still fight back. Go for his eyes, windpipe and groin, all which are vulnerable while his hands are occupied.


 
That may be true, but I have long thought, without any real experience, that extensive training in BJJ from the guard position (i.e., on your back with your legs wrapped around your opponent) would be beneficial for WSD instructors. If a guy's trying to rape you, I suspect the odds that he'll drop right into that position are pretty great. 

I think MMA style training from guard is a tool that your WDS tool-box cannot be without; not that it's a preferable position to place yourself in, but that it should be emphasized, rather than ignored, incase you end up on your back, with a baddie between your legs.


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## Jimi (Jun 29, 2006)

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> That may be true, but I have long thought, without any real experience, that extensive training in BJJ from the guard position (i.e., on your back with your legs wrapped around your opponent) would be beneficial for WSD instructors. If a guy's trying to rape you, I suspect the odds that he'll drop right into that position are pretty great.
> 
> I think MMA style training from guard is a tool that your WDS tool-box cannot be without; not that it's a preferable position to place yourself in, but that it should be emphasized, rather than ignored, incase you end up on your back, with a baddie between your legs.


Halalooya! Preach it my brother, I agree. It is not the only aspect of WSD, but it should not be ignored. Great post man. PEACE


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## shesulsa (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, I'd have to say some grappling is good WSD training as well, since that is a likely position for a woman to be in.


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## KenpoTex (Jun 29, 2006)

good article...I think, for the most part, she's right on the money.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 29, 2006)

> In general, I don&#8217;t recommend that women grapple with an attacker. Once you&#8217;re on the ground, you&#8217;re sacrificing yourself and any advantage you may have had while you were standing in terms of incapacitating him and/or running away. It&#8217;s also a lot easier for two assailants to overcome you when you&#8217;re down. However, if your attacker manages to get on top of you, you can still fight back. Go for his eyes, windpipe and groin, all which are vulnerable while his hands are occupied.


NO! Every guy expects a women to fight like this, using standard hysterical girl tactics. If your groundfighting consists of hitting the groin (often not possible) and eye gouges, you are going to get severely beaten. Everyone, and women in particular, needs to have a basic sense of how to act on the ground if they want to consider themselves prepared for an attack.

I'm not saying women should start pulling guard if a guy with a gun asks for their purse, far from it. But if a women _is _taken to the ground, or the fight begins there (for example, sex turns into rape), Long's advice is terrible. A women facing a rape needs to know how to grapple, it's the one situation where an attack is almost guaranteed to take place on the ground. Knowing how to submit and sweep from guard, escape from backmount, and get off of the ground will be far more useful then clawing at her attackers eyes.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

Also, I've been told that anyone who doesn't know BJJ, who gets into it with a BJJer, has no clue what the heck is going on. That's where the rapist should be in that situation: dazed and confused while the chick's going for an arm-bar, triangle or *giggles* a rear naked. 

Newspaper headlines: 

"Rapist gets choked out by victim"


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## Dark (Jun 29, 2006)

Two things stand out to me, one she never addressed the real issue with women self-defense i.e. reality. The reality factor that most women, especially the one's who come to a self-defense class have been imprinted with "women must be a danty and delicate lady" or the "I can not be a victim" attitudes. Those attitudes either cause the women to be afraid to act aggressively, the exact opposite of mancho male culture. Or attempt to prove themselves through "inviting an attack" by ignoring certain social codes.

The second factor is the "don't recommend grappling line" grappling doesn't always mean ground fighting, just like striking doesn't mean always stand up. The concept of not grappling is way off. A good arm-lock can, or better yet a break can, be a fight stopper, shoot break a few fingers. If you assaulted for your purse the attacker will hit you before you see them coming, if it's a rape then we all know the situation, as everyone has stated...

Other then that I thought the basic concept kinda generalized and aplicatable for men as well, especially since not all men are buff UFC types lol...


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> grappling doesn't always mean ground fighting, just like striking doesn't mean always stand up...


 
Thai clinch defense and counter-offense is perfect for a guy trying to grap at a woman's neck.


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## MJS (Jun 29, 2006)

I'll admit that there are some things taught in womens SD classes, that should probably be substituted for something a bit more effective and a bit simpler.  As for the ground work, I do feel that this is an important area.  I do think though, that the focus should not be on rolling around, looking for a submission, but instead, the most effective way to escape the bad position, get back to your feet and continue a defense from there or run.  

Mike


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## Eviscerate (Jun 29, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Two things stand out to me, one she never addressed the real issue with women self-defense i.e. reality. The reality factor that most women, especially the one's who come to a self-defense class have been imprinted with "women must be a danty and delicate lady" or the "I can not be a victim" attitudes. Those attitudes either cause the women to be afraid to act aggressively, the exact opposite of mancho male culture. Or attempt to prove themselves through "inviting an attack" by ignoring certain social codes.
> 
> You're talking about mentality here, which in my opinion can be taught, learned and is probably gonna get someone further then any set of pre set physical responses. Waiting on that eye gouge for 10 seconds till something heavy is near at hand might be better than going all out right away. Enduring some of whats in store could be a great motivator to really stick it to someone and thats how mentality comes into play. Understanding what your adversary is thinking and pre-emting them mentally might be a lot better than jumping on them physically in dire circumstances.


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## still learning (Jun 30, 2006)

Hello, Kathy Long is right on...for most women, these strikes to the eyes,thoat, and groin are there best chances for escaping.

Most people will be attack quickly and at the time you least expected. These defense's also will work for Men too.

Grappling takes years of training...but these above techniques will work on the ground too. (biting included).

No two situtions will be same...What can we teach people who do not have the time to train in the martial arts?   Eyes,windpipe,and groin are tarkets most women can learn in a short time.

Not many people know how about breaking fingers and joints....but fingers are easy to learn if taught correctly.....

Why should martial arts take years to learn...when a few things may work for alot of people?  If you were to teach the masses?      .................Aloha


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## tradrockrat (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, my .02 cents as a self defense teacher is that she's half right.  To ignore ground techniques is ludicrous.

Yes, the woman should work on accuracy and speed when attacking vital points, but please... every criminal that's ever even been to juvie knows to watch out for his groin and eyes when attacking a female.  There is a VERY good chance that she may find herself on the ground in a rape attempt or even a mugging.  Learning to work out of the guard to blind, bite, gouge, jap something into the eardrum, and crush/ pull out the windpipe is taught in all of my SD classes.


What I really agree with is the mental development and fortitude to commit to violence of action.  The amount of violence a person is willing to use is NOT something you can decide while IN the damn fight for your life - you have to KNOW that you are going to maim and even kill if you have to before anything ever happens.


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## Dark (Jun 30, 2006)

It takes years to master MAs, and realitively short time to learn them. Grappling can be picked upon rather quickly if taught correctly. But if you teach people to rely on themselves and focus on the priniples of the core basics there goes the whole business


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## Drac (Jun 30, 2006)

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> Glock-Fu works.


 
Yes it does..I perfer Sig-Do myself..


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## ThatWasAKick (Jul 30, 2006)

I had one problem with Kathy's article, on the lines of what tradrockrat said - that men protect sensitive areas.  But what worries me about stressing groin kicks to women is that we (women) think that if you kick a man he'll drop. Sexual predators are often excited by pain, and will respond forcefully.  If the woman isn't prepped to strike _and keep on striking_ then she's in trouble.

Like tradrockrat said... it's about commitment.

I'd just like to say, too, that women _must_ have solid ground skills.  In our black belt training we have the men simulate a rape attack (ripping their clothes off, face punches, etc.).  There is simply no way a guy could spread the knees of one of our gals unless she was knocked out first.  The men are exhausted trying.


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## ThatWasAKick (Jul 30, 2006)

p.s. I practice Kahr-do, myself.


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## pstarr (Jul 30, 2006)

I have to agree with Dark on this...for the most part, Ms. Long is right on the money.


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## Kacey (Jul 30, 2006)

I agree with most of what has been posted here already, and would like to add to the comments about groin kicks - in that I see the same problem with eye gouges.  Talking about eye gouges is all well and good - but how many of you, and more, how many women who have only taken one SD class, are, realistically, going to be able to gouge someone's eyes out, no matter the situation.  When I teach SD classes (regardless of the gender of the participants) I start with awareness - how to avoid being attacked in the first place.  Then I teach basic releases and escapes... including knee attacks.  The knee is a much better target than the groin - it's harder to guard and easier to hit - especially for someone who is taking a one-time SD class.  Even an attack that goes off-target will damage a leg, and the direction of the attack doesn't matter as much - front, side, back of knee will all have an effect, and most people who miss, miss low - and getting hit in the shin hurts.  A lot of people can't, psychologically, attempt to blind someone by putting their own fingers in the other person's eyes - but knees and solar plexus are easy to find, easy to hit, and psychologically more available.  I'm average height for a woman - 5'5" - and therefore shorter than most men.  Eyes would require me to reach up... knees to the groin, shin rakes, stomping, punching abdomen, are all easier for a shorter person to perform on a taller one, and very effective in making the person let go - at which point an eye gouge would require moving back into range, always a bad idea.


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## Paul B (Aug 3, 2006)

Exactly right,Kacey. Make 'em fight on your level,not theirs. 

 I think that there are points to be made for either approach..but I never kid anyone who comes to me looking for SD about what actually learning SD technique is..lots and lots of hard,repetitious,mean practice. 

I've seen the false sense of security that people can get from such 2-4 hour "one-time" seminar's..and I don't particularly care for it. Being overly confident can be as big of a mark sign as being less than confident. There's just no *quick and easy* way to reach that natural confidence and most importantly,*ability*,which comes from good old fashioned hard training.

To me,teaching a person one or two "tricks" which they may or maynot remember in the morning or they may or maynot freeze up on..does little but leave me with concerns about their well-being after the class. I'd rather they sucked it up and took the time to learn and absorb the technique properly through regular class attendance.


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## Bigshadow (Aug 3, 2006)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Exactly right,Kacey. Make 'em fight on your level,not theirs.
> 
> I think that there are points to be made for either approach..but I never kid anyone who comes to me looking for SD about what actually learning SD technique is..lots and lots of hard,repetitious,mean practice.
> 
> ...


I agree.  Those short (1 or 2 hour), one time SD classes are analogous to handing the class a loaded .45 and quickly telling them how to operate the pistol, how to shoot, and when to shoot.  They will feel empowered, but on the street if the time comes to shoot, they probably won't know how to operate the pistol in the chaos, how to shoot, when and where to shoot.  IMO, short 1 time SD classes can endanger more than it helps.

The best part of those courses is hopefully it sparks an interest in long term training.


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