# Dealing with the Homeless



## Phil Elmore (Jul 16, 2003)

This issue is particularly relevant to me, now, because my city is considering an ordinance that would make "aggressive panhandling" a crime.  Predictably, the people who think we have to show these _manimals_ compassion and understanding continue to completely miss the threat they represent.

My teacher Dave and I wrote opposing editorials on the topic for the next issue of _The Martialist_.

*Panhandling Point-Counterpoint*

(I'm not telling most of the people here anything they don't already know, of course, so please forgive me if this is painfully obvious to you.)  One of the simplest, most useful things you can learn to adopt is the "fence" stance -- a staggered, hands-up, palms-out position that transmits in body language the message, "hey, now, back up there, maintain your distance."  The default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu is very similar -- it's a double "wu sau" ("guarding hand"), basically two vertical hands with one behind the other to protect the centerline (below, right).  Picture opening the hands a little so the palms face the approaching person, and you've got a great barrier that doesn't look like a "fighting stance."

(Nobody's talking about dropping into your Daniel-san Crane Stance and howling like Bruce Lee, after all.)







My Wing Chun instructor, when he finds himself in threatening situations (he is in a band and spends a lot of time in bars and clubs, for example) will raise one hand as if he's scratching his chest;  it is much the same thing.  By the same token, the double "wu sau" position and the "fence" stance are also very similar.  The point is to get your hands out there to visually send the message that you wish to preserve your personal space while at the same time physically covering yourself.

Homeless people are *not* simply harmless bums asking you for change.  Street people are more often than not mentally deranged, physically diseased, and totoally unpredictable.  Allowing one to violate your personal space is a very bad idea.

Human filth like this ought to be treated like the threat they represent.  I hope my city passes the ordinance.  It will help a little in freeing our citizens from the constant harassment of these beggars.


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## Kirk (Jul 16, 2003)

Great article, IMO the best read yet!


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## progressivetactics (Jul 16, 2003)

is your dollar so important to you?

Have we lost all compassion for fellow humans?  For years, we destroyed everything in our past, all animals, trees, vegetation, etc...now we trying to learn from our mistakes and preserve things.  As martial arts, shouldn't our jobs be to preserve life, have reverance for it?  Of course there are bad people out there. Begging, polluting, making things un-attractive...but as a society, shouldn't we be trying to fix the root cause, not bandage over the scars from mistakes of our own people.  

Why are there people pan handling?  Mostly?  They need something. Food, drink....something.  "Get a job", right?  Not as easy as it once was.  Corporate downsizing, outsourcing from Mexico, China, etc...  

Now sir..i am not sure where you are. I am in Detroit. We have issues like this as well.  I agree, don't let them invade your personal space. Keep them as far away as you feel comfortable... but do not ignore their needs.  If you can help them, why would you not help?

I create food bags and hand them out in downtown Detroit everyear. I personally shop for, and bag all the food myself. I get in with the people who are living in these sh*th*les and are disease ridden, and unpredictable and TRY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR LIFE.  If 1 good thing is done to someone, perhaps it will turn them to do 1 good thing for someone else.  I prefer to think of people as positive, not negative.

Just my humble opinion.





> Human filth like this ought to be treated like the threat they represent. I hope my city passes the ordinance. It will help a little in freeing our citizens from the constant harassment of these beggars.


that statement scares me.  It sounds like something from a dictator speech.


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## progressivetactics (Jul 16, 2003)

the article was well done!

SOrry i forgot that in previous post.


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## tarabos (Jul 16, 2003)

i would honestly have to give this issue some more though before i expressed any opinion on it. you see i do not live in a large city, i live in a small town in Pennsylvania where i can honestly say i have never seen a homeless person or anyone holding up a sign or begging for change. yet even though i do not live around that type of setting, i have been accosted by a homeless person before. the man asked me for two dollars to "buy throat losenges because his throat was sore from singing in church too loud." yeah right...that guy gets the prize for most creative excuse for why you should give him money for doing nothing. ok...after writing that, maybe i am more inclined to side with Phil in the point-counterpoint.

Ill just wrap up this post with a story of a run-in one of my cousins had with a panhandler. My cousin owns a horse farm. He was in the process of putting up a new fence around his property. As he was driving along one day he noticed a man on the side of the road with a sign (I forget what it said but you can pretty much imagine the jist of it) begging for handouts. My cousin pulls up alongside the man in his car and rolls down the window. He tell the man that hes not going to just give him money, but he will offer him a chance to earn it. He told him to either get in the car or find a way to get to his property, and help him put up his fence for the day. He offered 40 dollars an hour for 8 hours of work. A pretty good deal if you ask me. The man turned down the offer. My cousin offered again, the man again turned him down. It went on a little longer, my cousin offering the job, plus upping the offer to include a free home-cooked meal, and the panhandler turning him down. 

The way my cousin was describing it, he himself was getting a little pushy with the panhandler when he was turned down on his offer, and then began to accost him himself, saying some harsh things to the man. Now granted, Im the firs to admit that my cousin is quite a jackass. I personally cant stand him, and he was rather rude to the man, more so than I could ever be. And granted, I would think twice myself about taking an offer to get in a strangers car and let him take me to work on a fence. however, he did make a good point that when presented with the opportunity to make an honest dollar, the panhandler turned it down in favor of sitting on the side of the road and little money for doing nothing except making his little sign.


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## Kirk (Jul 16, 2003)

Their needs?   What, a drink, or crack fix?  If they have a mental
problem then they need to go to a facility for treatment .. my tax
dollars are already there to help him.  If they have a drug 
problem, then they don't need one red cent from me, I have a job
and I EARN my money.   There's nothing stopping them from doing
the same.  Panhandling is good money, plain and simple.  It's the
easy way out for those not wanting to actually earn a living.  If
unemployment were at ZERO, then I might have a change of heart
but hell, I used to work at Mickey Dee's, we got free food, free
uniforms, and a check every two weeks.  And last I heard .. 
they're still hiring!  

I don't owe them a damned thing, they need to get their asses up
and get a job!  I'd rather give some money to the guy that has a
job, but can't make ends meet.   Or the single parent who's check
just doesn't cover the expense of living, than the bum on the 
street that just doesn't want to do anything except get high, and
loaf.


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## progressivetactics (Jul 16, 2003)

I am not oblivious to the people who abuse the gererousity of myself and others....I know it exists. I would prefer to help then to turn a blind eye to those who need. 

By the way...you need to have an address to get a job.  You can't get an address if you are homeless.

we have very few fast food places in the ghetto, so it isn't that easy.

Most of the people who end up on the street are because they couldn't make ends meet and ended up there....not by choice.

You earned your money...No doubts about it. I applaud you. Your tax dollars help in paying for mentally challanged as well.  And with a good insurance plan, or a current family member providing assistance, they can check into that hospital. Currently, they can't walk into a hospital and get treated for mental illness.

The gene that makes people addicted is much stronger in some then others.....and some people can't/wont say no when they should.  Aren't we all guilty of that at some point?  You don't complain when the girl you were dating in school couldn't say no.  Or when you were at a party and someone passed a joint, or a beer can, and you already had too much.

People like yourself get to where you are because of 2 things, hard work, and someone bending down and giving you a hand up.

I don't think the majority of street people are able to give the hand up to anyone, but I think I can.  I am offering to help them.  Not all of them, and I have kept my hands up as protection on a few occasions as well.  Buy by in large, I still believe in people.

Just my opinion.


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 16, 2003)

It's not a question of wanting to hang on to a dollar;  it's a question of being fed up with the _harassment_.  It isn't a question of not feeling compassion for those in need, either -- it's a matter of recognizing that most street people are mentally deranged or chemically addicted and therefore very, very physically dangerous.

There is this myth that most homeless people are just regular folk who are down on their luck.  This does happen, but it is the _exception_, not the rule.  Street people are dangerous and we forget this fact at our peril.

More significantly, tolerating -- even openly supporting -- significant populations of street people who spend their days accosting our citizens is one of the factors contributing greatly to societal decay in urban areas.  It's a "quality of life" issue to a significant degree (though to a lesser extent than it is a personal safety issue).


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## progressivetactics (Jul 16, 2003)

I know many chemically addicted people.....in the office, and in the karate club.  Caffine, and nicotene....Two of the biggest offenders!!!

I don't believe that it is a myth. I do believe most are down on their luck. I don't think most of them would chose to live like they do. I think most of them would like to have a job and a nice car,and a computer to post thier opinions on.  But the fact is, as big business keeps downsizing, and outsourcing to other countries,  as our governement keeps giving billions in aid to every country around the world, we will have people in need.
I dont believe your exception/rule. I think you have it backwards.  Now, granted, more and more people are abusing it, Yes. Agreed, but to turn blind eye is no help either. To be afraid to look someone in the eye because they may have a disease....come on.  Chlamideya is the #1 disease in the country.  SOmething like 80% of the 16-44 year olds have it.  Now, compare that to the homeless population, and I think that means more homeowners have it then homeless.

Now. I have only been "aggressively" harrassed a couple times in the last few years and have kept my guard up, and listened to thier case and made a case by case decision as to whether or not to support them (my change).  But to blanketly say that the majorty have disease and are a menace to society is far to harsh for a truth based arguement.

If by quality of life, you mean pretending you live in a utopian society...you are probably right.  But that is not, nor will it ever be the case.
And for societal decay....That is, IMHO, a reflection of attitude, more then a class of people.


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## Kirk (Jul 16, 2003)

I guess that's what it boils down to.  Whether or not you think 
those people are going the easy route, and begging for handouts,
or whether you think they're just "down on their luck".

In Texas .. the county hospitals MUST treat all who come, 
regardless of their ability to pay, and that includes mental 
impairments.  

Shelters have addresses, and there are loads of 'em, at least in
San Antonio. 

I used to work in a western wear/farm & ranch store.  Many a
rancher would come in and tell me stories of offering the guy on
the corner a block away, food and a job paying more than I was
making at the store.  Never did he take any of them up on it.  Was
that his lack of an address?  Nope.  Wasn't relevant.  I've since
done the same .. offered a meal first, and payment for work with
several people (granted not what the ranchers were offering but
money for a day's work).  None, out of at LEAST 20, have ever
taken me up on it.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 16, 2003)

Maybe you should have called this "Dealing with street people" rather than using the word "homeless."

I have known a few homeless people that really were just down on their luck. They weren't out there begging for money or harrasing people. You can usually meet some folks through church groups like this.

Street people are a completly different breed. Either they are mentally ill, or on drugs, or both. Considering the stuff they do, you do not want to get into a bloody situation with them.


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> ...Considering the stuff they do, you do not want to get into a bloody situation with them.



...Which is exactly why you must keep them at a distance.  Unfortunately, the choice of whether the situation then becomes "bloody" is generally up to them.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 16, 2003)

"Human filth," eh? 

Way to give every religious principle I've ever heard of the old heave-ho...musta skipped that part of the Gospels in which Christ said, "the poor, the naked, the desperate?...screw 'em."

Even if these hordes of threatening zombies were real--and, funny thing, hasn't happened to me in New York, Newark, LA, Chicago, Phoenix, New Orleans, etc.--well, I could go off on compassion and the martial arts, or even just reasonable threat assessment and the martial arts, but what's the point? 

Don't worry. I won't post further on this thread under any circumstances.

"Human filth." Unbelievable.


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## grimfang (Jul 16, 2003)

hmmm... how to 'deal with' the homeless.....
i personally do not like being harrassed by a guy with a squeegee and bucket at every red light, or someone begging for change on every corner, or tripping over someone sleeping on a sidewalk. However, i do not overlook one simple detail: Street people are still PEOPLE. How do we 'deal with' them?  
Here is a very bold suggestion: TRY FINDING A SOLUTION TO THEIR PROBLEM, AND THEY WILL STOP BEING A PROBLEM.

SO many people complain about homeless citizens.. but SO few do anything about it. When was the last time anyone here actaully helped a homeless person find a home? When was the last time anyone here offered a stable job to a homeless person? When was the last time anyone here put a homeless person in the car and drove them to a rehab clinic?  When was the last time that anybody here contacted their elected oficials and lobbied to change laws in order to better assisst these people? I have done all of these things.. i am ashamed to say that i have not done it enough.

It seems to me that the real problem is all of us that choose to do nothing. Fear and hatred solve nothing.


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## Michael Billings (Jul 16, 2003)

Experience is the best teacher!

Compassion, charity, encouragement, when not misplaced, return to the giver manyfold ... even it that is just us feeling better about ourselves or our actions.  You cannot discount the truely huge number of disenfranchised Americans who are on the streets, and been there for the past 20 years or so.  Prior to that, in the 60's or 70's, the number of "street people" or homeless, that I had to deal with, was significantly smaller.

This should not be confused with the predators out there that have made panhandling a lifestyle choice, not out of necessity (mental health issues, traumatic life changes, etc.), but out of choice.  I also have a similar story of offering a panhandler a job.  I offered minimum wage for the next day or two, and was frankly and coherently told that he "made more money than that in a day panhandling."  This was not a "Predator", but a life style choice.

I have also been accosted by more aggressive street people.  The repetitiveness of the request, the fact that I had a date with me and he was getting way too close to her and hoping I would pay to leave her alone, then when I assertively told him to leave us alone, he escalated.  I had to pull my badge and threaten him with a night in jail to get him to back off.  He did, but he was cursing and yelling the whole time.  He said "throw me in jail, it ain't like I have not been there before."

Where his space ends, and mine begins, is the line that I have drawn in the sand.  I will not risk being stabbed.  This is something that actually happened here in Austin a couple of years ago.  Several young kids (or adults) were out for the night on 6th Street.  While walking back to their car, a homeless guy walking on the sidewalk the other way, seemingly punches one of the women in the stomach.  She had not been punched, but stabbed with a full sized hunting knife.  The 2 males subdued the guy, and I believe one was cut (minor if there is any such thing,)  The young woman was in the hospital and did recover, but not without a lot of surgery.  They had never seen the guy before, he had not asked for anything from them, they were just the target for him taking his rage out ... about someone else? ... about his lifestyle, who knows what ... and who cares!  HE STABBED A 19 YEAR OLD GIRL FOR NO REASON.

Phil, you done good.  Give if you want to give, but on your own terms.  Acceptance is the first Prepatory Consideration in Kenpo, and Environmental Awareness is the second.  They are there for a reason.  

Be judicious & be careful.  Not everything is what it seems - the good or the bad.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 16, 2003)

Something else to remember:  The economy right now is in a bad way.  I've seen reports that unemoployment is at 7 and even 20 year highs.  While there are in fact jobs out there, often times one is either so under qualified as to not bother trying, or so over qualified as to be un hireable.  (Think a 10 yr out of work sysadmin with a masters trying out for the fry-cook position at McD.  Wanna bet the 16yr old gets the job first?)  Its rough, and getting rougher.   Buffalo's never had the amount of street people as is obvious in bigger cities like NY or Toronto, but I've heard its growing.  

The solutions are that the crazies need to be taken care of, and the 'down on their luck' ones need a stable base to work from.  Jobs need to be available, but for that to happen, the economy needs to pick up.  The politicions need to stop lying about all these jobs they will create since they never do create jobs. (Employers do, and for them to need to hire they must be in a growth phase)

:asian:


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## tkdcanada (Jul 16, 2003)

For the most part, I agree with Kirk's point of view.  Why should everyone else take responsibility for these people.  They need to learn to take responsibility for themselves.  You make your path and you create your own destiny.  There are social programs put in place to help.  Yes, I know that it's possible to be down on your luck, but too often it's used as an excuse to put the responsibility onto others.  I watched a program where a homeless man was interviewed and followed for a week or so - the conditions he lived in were horible - he also had thousands of dollars in the bank!  Many actually choose that life.  Rather than hard-working tax payers taking responsibility for them, maybe more programs should be put into place to help them take responsibility for themselves.  It's frustrating.  Here in Canada, they seem to be harder on people who go on unemployment insurance temporarily than they are on people who go on welfare!  It just doesn't makes any sense.  When you are on unemployment insurance, you have to show that you are looking for employment and you get nothing but 54% (i think) of your previous wages for a certain amount of weeks depending on how much you've worked - which I think is reasonable, it helps to keep the situation temporary.  But the minute you go on welfare, you get all your medical prescriptions and dental work paid for, you cannot be forced to look for a job and there is no time limit - the perfect situation to abuse the system (and people do abuse it).  Then what happens is when people actually need to be on welfare because of unfortunate circumstances, it is so humiliating and they are treated like trash because of the great number of abusers of the system.  BTW, I am neither on uemployment, nor welfare, but I've been in both places and pulled myself up having worked menial jobs, returned to school and begun a meaningful career, so I don't look down upon anyone, I just believe in accountability.


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## tarabos (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Something else to remember:  The economy right now is in a bad way.  I've seen reports that unemoployment is at 7 and even 20 year highs.  While there are in fact jobs out there, often times one is either so under qualified as to not bother trying, or so over qualified as to be un hireable.  (Think a 10 yr out of work sysadmin with a masters trying out for the fry-cook position at McD.  Wanna bet the 16yr old gets the job first?)  Its rough, and getting rougher.   Buffalo's never had the amount of street people as is obvious in bigger cities like NY or Toronto, but I've heard its growing.
> *



also a good reason for the current administration to take a closer look at what's going on in the United States and stop worrying so much about everyone else's affairs. the economy is getting ridiculous in this country. i count my blessings every day because i'm working in the field that i paid to get my education in. it would surprise you to learn how many people i went to college with and how many people that are graduating now or recently that can't say the same and are working jobs that they should have been working over summer vacation in high school to make ends meet.

straying back on topic though, i think that there are different types of homeless people out there. i'm sure that there really are a lot of people that just happened to run into some bad luck one way or another and were unfortunate enough to wind up without any money or a place to live. if you ever "run into" a homeless person either begging or harrassing you, i would doubt it would be one of these people. i honestly do feel sorry for them.

it's the people who may be on drugs or alcohol or what have you...making up stories about why you should give them money or just plain harrass the hell out of you or worse attack you that are making the most waves. yes, i agree, these people need to be "dealt with." perhaps it does sound harsh to some people here but it's a reality.

help them out then you say? when i'm done helping my family, my friends and myself through troubles, maybe i'll get to them. but i'm not a politician, i'm not an officer of the law nor am i in any type of military. i don't feel it's my responsibility. it's not like i never donate to charities or to goodwill or even just donate food to local food drives. i think i do more than my share.


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## Kirk (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Way to give every religious principle I've ever heard of the old heave-ho...musta skipped that part of the Gospels in which Christ said, "the poor, the naked, the desperate?...screw 'em."
> *



"the poor" not "the lazy"


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 16, 2003)

The question I have is, given that we all base things on our own biases and opinions.... is that guy, who is wearing rags, who smells like a compost heap, beggin for a buck ...

Is he poor, or lazy?

We walk by and mutter "get a job you bum".

We have no way of knowing what his story is, as we just look at him and judge.

He may have been a highly educated person, who spent months sending out hundreds of resumes, knocking on every door, right up to the point in time where he was booted out of his home, his friends and family no where to be found, forced to survive, with every step becoming harder and harder.

He may also be a drugged out booze hound.

Too often, they look alike.

Too often, esp. today, I hear of people who are highly trained and skilled in their fields, working very mundane jobs just to get by.


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## Yari (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Human filth*



I agree that nobody should be allowed to take your personal space, but who's the problem when you think of them as filth? Then you've allready attacked them before they confront you...

That's a mentality I wish we could get ride of. Then we could help people instead of putting them away and hoping they would die.

/Yari


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 16, 2003)

A disheveled, chemically altered, physically dirt-encrusted creature wandering around in traffic wearing one shoe and loudly _barking_ at each person who enters a building, _demanding_ to know if they have change at the top of his lungs, is indeed human filth.  

I watched as women with children cringed and recoiled from his advances.  

I watched as people of all ages did their best to simply walk around him and go on about their lives, only to be stopped as he circulated among them making his demands. 

I watched as he took a peaceful afternoon and turned it into an exercise in harassment for all within earshot.

I watched, and was _sickened_.


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## tarabos (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Too often, esp. today, I hear of people who are highly trained and skilled in their fields, working very mundane jobs just to get by. *



it is very tough out there right now. it took me over six months of trying just to get one interview a little over a year and a half ago, and from what i can tell it's worse now. luckily my first interviewer hired me, and i mean LUCKY. we just hired a new designer at my office because the woman whos position he filled was leaving. we're in a very small town and i kid you not, we recieved over 100 resumes for the position and all we did was put a small ad in the local paper. we had people applying from all over the country, and most of the faxes came from places like kinko's and other copy places because that's where the designers who forked over a ton of money for their education wound up working, just trying to get somewhere close to working in the field.


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## Ender (Jul 16, 2003)

I think many are missing a very important point here. Who are the homeless?..and why are they there? true some may be alcoholics or drug addicts. Ive read where drug account for 25-30% of poverty. 

But in the early 80's the ACLU took the government to court to release many people who were mentally ill or institutionalized. They claimed they were being held against thier will and the government were holding them prisoners. The ACLU won the case and the government had to release them. Many of these patients had no one to release them to, so they were just released into the public. Since the government could no longer house these people, funding was then removed. Many people blame Reagan for being callous and not caring for these people, but really the ACLU is to blame. 

anyway, the point is that many of these people are mentally and can turn violent in a matter of seconds. Caution would be the prudent reaction because you never know what they are thinking or what they will do. Yes we can pity them, but we must also be wary.  just my opinion.


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## girlychuks (Jul 16, 2003)

First off, I agree with the fact that allowing a stranger to invade your personal space is a bad idea. I have had *plenty* of, ah, "grizzled" men try to get up close. It's a wonder what a pointed finger and a loud "STOP RIGHT THERE" will do.   


As far as "dealing with the homeless", 
1) The vast majority of "homeless' are women and children. 
2) There are plenty of aggressive, mentally ill people who make  six figures annually.  They qualify as "human filth" also, However, is not as fun to try to morally stigmatize someone who drives a BMW.  it's much more fun if they are grizzled and they smell.
3) If a homeless person accosts or harasses you, you can call the cops on him and have him moved away from your place of business or cited for disorderly conduct. If you decide to go up and suckerpunch a bum, the police will barely even pay attention to your victim.

Second, to beat a Cliche' to death, don't judge a book by his or her cover. I am * very* close to someone who, between the ages of 18-20, was a homeless gutter punk.  He spare changed and slept in  vacant buildings, had the American flag upside down on his jacket in protest, etc. 

Today, a few years later, he has a 4.0 GPA, is a supervisor at a major manufacturer, and drives a Porsche. Oh, and he votes republican.


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## progressivetactics (Jul 16, 2003)

Please excuse my short replies I will be moving too, as my computer is continually booting me off!!!!!!!!! ARRRGHHHHHHH


We must be wary of everyone.....Look at those rich Colorado white kids in the burbs....Got teased for wearing trench coats and started shooting everyone.  Dont let your kids go to school....they could get shot!

Post office employees stressed about working conditions---- Don't complain about stamp price increases.....you could get shot...

Don't Complain about your spouse coming home late from work.....they could dump your body in the river and try to flee to mexico..

Don't go downtown to the casino... Homeless people are outside and everyone is a drug infested bum looking for an easy way out and is ready to cut you if you don't give him a dollar.

I agree....we don't want to see people down on their luck....but have some sensibility to the issues here. It is not black and white....everyone is taking the easy way out and begging for a buck instead of working for a buck.


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by girlychuks _
> However, is not as fun to try to morally stigmatize someone who drives a BMW.  it's much more fun if they are grizzled and they smell.



This is not a question of what is "fun" or not.  This is a question of what is most applicable and most accurate for the continued defense of the self from society's predators.



> If a homeless person accosts or harasses you, you can call the cops on him and have him moved away from your place of business or cited for disorderly conduct.



You don't spend a lot of time walking from Point A to Point B downtown in an urban area, do you?  What are you going to do -- stand there and wait for fifteen, twenty, or thirty minutes with your mobile phone in your hand while you wait for the cops to show up?

"Please hold on, Mr. Aggressive Panhandler, while I phone the police to have you removed..."



> If you decide to go up and suckerpunch a bum, the police will barely even pay attention to your victim.



No one here is talking about _suckerpunching_ anybody.



> Second, to beat a Cliche' to death, don't judge a book by his or her cover. I am * very* close to someone who, between the ages of 18-20, was a homeless gutter punk.  He spare changed and slept in  vacant buildings, had the American flag upside down on his jacket in protest, etc.
> 
> Today, a few years later, he has a 4.0 GPA, is a supervisor at a major manufacturer, and drives a Porsche. Oh, and he votes republican.



One of those people contributed to the decay of the society in which he was living at the time.  One did not.

I don't care what a given beggar's life was like _before_ or what it will be like _later_.  To deal with violence, to defend yourself, you must be concerned with _now_.


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## girlychuks (Jul 16, 2003)

Phil, you are showing anger , as well as  incorrect assumptions. 

As a woman who walks *alone* in an area  notorious for panhandlers every day, and  has called the cops on a PAYPHONE,  I can assure you, aggression is dealt with.  

 I wonder why you sat and "watched" as women and children were "violently accosted"  from a "filthy creature.' Surely you were not scared of this bedraggled old man and could have *politely* asked him to change his demeanor? 

I don't think defense against homeless people is an issue worth discussing.  Rather, self- defense in general should be addressed instead of people in one demographic.  Predators are predators.

Retitle your thread "Dealing with Blacks"- after all, they are incarcerated  in great proportion, no?   I still believe you are picking on a defenseless group, as I for one, am not going to round up the homeless and get them to a computer cafe' to argue this thread- 

Self-Defense. Not class-defense. 

PS- The Decay of Society?  I keep hearing about this great Decay of Society.  Should I ask Bill Bennet?  He knows a lot about that... or great Morality Queen Laura Schlessinger...   

Reading assignment for the day: Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut.


----------



## girlychuks (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *A disheveled, chemically altered, physically dirt-encrusted creature wandering around in traffic wearing one shoe and loudly barking at each person who enters a building, demanding to know if they have change at the top of his lungs, is indeed human filth.
> 
> I watched as women with children cringed and recoiled from his advances.
> ...




You WATCHED.
And WATCHED. 
And WATCHED.


Complacency is the first step for evil. Whether you were sickened or not.


----------



## tkdcanada (Jul 16, 2003)

Dealing with blacks??!  A little bigotted, no?


----------



## girlychuks (Jul 16, 2003)

"Dealing with the homeless" isn't bigoted?


*Girlychuks sighs, decides to meditate*


----------



## Kirk (Jul 16, 2003)

Let's also discuss the poor, helpless convicts in our justice system.
Nobody understands those poor souls, who can't have conjugal
visits, subscriptions to playboy, and are limited on internet access.
We need to do something about THOSE people.  Those darn 
victims and all their complaining put them in jail in the first place,
what right to they have?  Where do they come off?


----------



## J-kid (Jul 16, 2003)

We are all humans no matter what type of finacial sititauin you are in.  It dos not matter if you have a billion dollars or not a penny to your name.

These people arnt animals and we can't just turn are backs on them and pretend they are not there.

I will spare a dollar for one of these homeless guys because half of these people really want a job and arnt a crack head.

What ever happen to the love......


----------



## DAC..florida (Jul 16, 2003)

I work in a county jail and see plenty of homeless people!
there is a difference between people who are just down on thier luck and violent predators who are addicted to either drugs or alchohol. Unfortunately the violent addicts usualy prey on women
because they will usualy give them what they want, 9 out of 10 times the female is afraid what the vagrant might do if they dont.
These violent addicts are criminals and somtimes the worst ones, so they should be treated as such. Another misfortune is that the homeless that are just down on thier luck usually get treated the same as the addicts.

A radio personality did a expirement in the local area where i live, he dressed in rags and got filthy everyday for a week then he stood at busy intersection and held up a sign theat read ( homeless vet please help! ) this D.J. made close to $1000.00 in a week. None of the radio listeners knew about this scam until it was over he then took the money and donated it to a homeless shelter.

We can sit here in our a/c and type on our computers all day, but
who are we to judge?
 :asian:


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *We are all humans no matter what type of finacial sititauin you are in.  It dos not matter if you have a billion dollars or not a penny to your name.
> 
> These people arnt animals and we can't just turn are backs on them and pretend they are not there.
> ...



Thank you for seeing what many of those older than you are too blind to notice.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 16, 2003)

I find your comments almost beneath responding to. 
 You have an attitute that shows you could care less about the other guy. These people are in need of help in many cases and no less mentaly disturbed than people you will find running a  major buissness, or the goverment. Why is it that just because someone is out of a job or homeless that they become less than human? 
To me you have shown yourslef to be below them on the human scale for many of them would try to help you if you needed it yet you sure don't sound like you would help them. It must be nice to never have been poor or homeless and to feel superior to everyone in that situation.
Sorry I can't feel that way I have lived below the poverty level many times and yes I have been homelss also.
And takeing a slam at the homeless to promote something you wrote> Hell I cant tell you what I think about that I like not being suspended.


----------



## tkdcanada (Jul 16, 2003)

Sorry girlychuks, I really thought you were serious about the black thing.  I didn't catch your sarcasm.


----------



## Astra (Jul 17, 2003)

It's not all that bright..

I remember when I was 14, a homeless, and pretty drunk guy came to me and asked me for money. I told him to bugger off with a simple "No." After which he decided to grab me and not let me go. Grabbing who is pretty much still a kid - how ****ed up is that? Needless to say he didn't let go when asked either. It also goes without saying that none of the people walking by wanted to help either. I had already started on MAs back then and after asking him about ten times to let go and be gone, I told him that I would hit his face in, if he refused once more. Next time, he let go alright.

Compassion for people like that?


----------



## Phil Elmore (Jul 17, 2003)

Have those of you posting such hostile criticism failed to notice that the editorial addresses _both sides of the issue?_ 

I must have missed the part of my own essay where I declared that all unemployed citizens of the United States were black and should be scooped into open graves with bulldozers before being shot.

What, you mean I didn't write that?  Gosh, you wouldn't know it from the replies.


----------



## progressivetactics (Jul 17, 2003)

please  note in my initial (or second) reply, I commented on the article being good. It was well done. 
My point has been the lack of compassion shown to anyone who is down.  You just came at it like ALL PEOPLE ON THE STREET ARE SCUM AND GOING TO ATTACK YOU...BE PREPARED.  
I was suggesting considering peace and compassion before hatred and denial.


----------



## Phil Elmore (Jul 17, 2003)

Your posts weren't the ones I had in mind with my response, BB.


----------



## lost_tortoise (Jul 17, 2003)

It never ceases to amaze me that no matter how reasonable or unreasonable a discussion of this sort becomes, everyone skirts the fundamental dynamic at the root of all of these problems.

Reading assignment for today....and the future:

WWW.VHEMT.ORG


----------



## Phil Elmore (Jul 17, 2003)

Do you believe the root problem is overpopulation, then?


----------



## Kirk (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Do you believe the root problem is overpopulation, then? *



The problem is I'm being harrassed by druggies with bad attitudes
and major hygeine problems that feel I MUST GIVE to them.  They
get mean, and hostile.  

Yet that makes ME the one that doesn't care, and that could give 
a crap about humanity.     What about the poor 
involuntarily celibate middle class suit who makes a sexual 
comment  to a female in the workplace?  He's just going without,
poor guy.  But with his words, the female is "victimized", and the
homeless crack addict shouldn't be accosted cause he's spewing
bile on me, mad that I won't provide him with his next high, and
threatening me, my wife, and my property as a result is the one
being "victimized" ????

Whatever.


----------



## lost_tortoise (Jul 17, 2003)

Yes, that is exactly what I believe.  Indeed, it is not so much overpopulation as much as it is the very presence of humans in any concentration that is at the root of all of societies' problems.  Reading the website will be of more value than arguing these points with me as Les submits these truths in a more succinct and often witty manner than I ever could.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 17, 2003)

I question many of the statistics ("most" etc.) I have seen used here. I also think that, as someone else mentioned, a distinction should be drawn between "homeless" and "street people".

Clearly, one must be careful around street people. Whether they are at fault or mentally ill and hence not fully responsible for their actions is immaterial if you are stabbed. I have heard of other stories such as Mr. Billings'.

Aggressive panhandling is a safety problem and a quality of life issue. I have had problems with aggressive panhandlers in San Francisco and Toronto. (I also use some variation of the "scratch my chest" stance.) Of course, some people in such situations may see no other avenue than panhandling.

While in Toronto I saw, several times, teenagers panhandling. I saw some get dropped off in nice cars, throw a shoddy blanket over their nice clothes, and pretend to be in need of spare change. It was clearly being done to make pocket change for people with homes and other assets. I have also heard in some big cities that non-homeless individuals have sometimes taking to the squeegee approach because they found it pays well--crowding out the truly desperate.

We do have to be vigiliant. I think we also have to be compassionate.

I read Mr. Elmore's article and found it lacking in compassion and sensitivity. One doesn't need to "demonize the opposition" in order to recognize a threat. A severely mentally ill person and a bolt of lightning can each kill you just as dead, but neither are responsible for doing so. The "vile refuse of humanity" to quote Mr. Elmore aren't homeless, poor, and/or diseased on purpose, even if they made the decisions that led them there. I find Mr. Elmore's lack of compassion quite distressing.


----------



## theletch1 (Jul 18, 2003)

Life is guerilla warfare.  Everyone is a potential enemy and you never know where the next bullet is gonna come from.  Going through life with the above attitude may not be conducive to  utopia but I believe it will get ya through life.  I don't believe for a second that all homeless/street people are out to cut my throat for the change in my pocket (I'm married, therefore I have no money anyway) but I refuse to let my guard down around anyone that I don't know.  The discussion has dealt with the AGGRESIVE panhandler.  I've met a few folks who were new to the street, truly just down on their luck and they were humiliated by their circumstances and you could tell it in their approach.  I have also seen men and women who seemed almost to relish the act of panhandling.  I guess this would be the difference in the homeless and street people.  I'm not by nature a cold hearted person, but I will do what I have to do to get home to my wife and kids every day.  Every individual on the street must be dealt with as just that.... an individual.  Each encounter must be quickly and correctly evaluated, no mistakes allowed.  
    Just as Phil has been lambasted for making his blanket statement denegrating the homeless, how many others are guilty of blanket assumptions on the opposite end of the spectrum?  Do you really believe that all homeless/street people are just poor lost souls in need of a gentle nudge and a handout to get back on their feet?  How soon before that hand comes back with a few less fingers on it?  When the phrase "If it helps just ONE person, it will be worth it." entered the American lexicon the majority stopped ruling and common sense was murdered.
    By the way, I like the fence stance but will also use the "Jack Benny" stance if I feel that it is more appropriate for the situation.
Great article Phil.  If nothing else it definetly got the thought process kicked into high gear.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 18, 2003)

Good to know that all the liberal BS about Christ healing lepers, and that miserable, ACLU-inspired nonsense on the Statue of Liberty (she's French, you know--what can you expect?) about, "the wretched refuse of your teeming shores," has been done away with.


----------



## Baoquan (Jul 18, 2003)

I've been asked for change before. Sometimes, i say "Sure." Other times, i say "No, Sorry." 

Never have I felt the need to brand them "human filth" or "manimals" (sic  ).

Phil, i dont know you from adam, but if panhandling is the worst thing happening to you on ur average day, count yourself lucky.

Cheers

B


----------



## J-kid (Jul 18, 2003)

1. Seeing a intresting story on 60 mins about a lawyer that lost it all(wasnt his fault) was sleeping on the beach and trying to get it together and get a job. It amazed me how hard he tryed to get a shower and look desent so he would be able to get the most basic job.  These type of storys remind me that these people are humans and alot of times are just victoms of surcomstances.


Also if  you go down town you can see teens/kids grandparents digging threw dumps and taking half eaten apples out of the trash because they just want something to eat.  If you cant spair a dollar or dont have it on you then nothing much you can do.  But if you just size them up and decide that because of your 90$ shoes you are better then them,  Take another look in the mirror....

Ok here is another question what should we do about the older people who are almost homeless need medical supplies that have to eat Dog Food to survive.  I find we ignore them some being veterans who have fought in our wars for us.  (AKA forgotten heros)


----------



## sammy3170 (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *...Which is exactly why you must keep them at a distance.  Unfortunately, the choice of whether the situation then becomes "bloody" is generally up to them. *



I haven't read every post in this thread but think that in this case you are wrong. I'm sure that if you are nice to them when refusing to give them they don't all go nuts and attack you. I'm willing to bet it's a very very small percentage in which case the responsibility would be more on yourself than them if it turned bloody.  I'm sure if you come across an excessively violent one  you would have no real choice but a majority of people respond well to kindness and respect regardless of their situation. If you have to give the occasional one a dollar well so be it,  it's better than getting in a fight.

Cheers
Sammy


----------



## grimfang (Jul 18, 2003)

there are solutions... if you are willing to open your eyes and take a moment to think about somebody other than yourself. 
Need some help finding where to start? 

http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/homeless/library/index.cfm
http://www.worldhungeryear.org/ria/display_ria.asp?ria_ndx=70
http://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org:8080/top/CFTH/programs/job_training.html
http://www.fuusa.org/homeless_&_shelter_services.htm
http://www.toad.net/~aami/alighthouse.htm
http://www.bpl.org/electronic/shelters.htm
http://www.neshv.org/a_programs.html
http://4homeless.hypermart.net/hobos.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/grants-catalog-homelessness.html
http://www.nmha.org/homeless/affiliatehomelessprograms.cfm

by state:
Alabama: http://www.adeca.alabama.gov/content/csd/emerg_shelter/action_plan.aspx

Alaska: http://www.ci.anchorage.ak.us/cdbg/ESG.cfm
http://www.cssalaska.org/p_br_francis_kodiak.html

Arizona: http://www.stpaulsfay.org/sevenhills.html
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/adultPro/eligSp/info/homelessshelt.asp
http://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/GRANTNSD/cdbg98.html
http://www.azstarnet.com/nonprofit/tpch/services.htm

Arkansas: http://www.stpaulsfay.org/sevenhills.html
http://www.st-marks.com/outreach.htm

California: http://dhaweb.saccounty.net/Services/Homeless_Services/
http://www.trivalleyhaven.org/homelessservices.html
http://www.westsong.com/bahanapa/
http://www.yfa.org/homeless_RY_Srvcs.htm
http://www.self-sufficiency.org/programs.html
http://www.palmettohouse.org/services.htm
http://www.homelessness.org/faq.html
http://jdooley.hypermart.net/saa/homeless.html
http://centuryhousing.org/homelessveterans.htm
http://www.oaklandnet.com/government/hcd/homeless/shelters.html
http://www.beyondshelter.org/aaa_programs/demonstration_projects.shtml
http://www.ultimanet.com/~shltrpls/sop.html
http://www.sannet.gov/homeless-services/winteremer.shtml


Colorado: http://www.pparc.org/CS_HomeCent.shtml
http://www.state.co.us/oed/edc/ez_projects/_EZprojectList.cfm?zid=3

Conneticut: http://www.ihawestport.com/programs.htm

Delaware: http://www.delaware.gov/yahoo/Resident

Florida: http://www.miamibeachfl.gov/newcity/neighborhoods/homeless.asp
http://www.gcjfs.org/svc-housing.htm
http://www.goodwillcfl.org/people.asp
http://www.tfn.net/Homeless/services.htm

Georgia: http://www.homelessaid.com/2002/taskforce.html
http://www.therockatlanta.org/ResourceGuide/employment.htm

Hawaii: http://vlsh.org/partnersincare/pic/resources.html

Idaho: http://www.nicon.org/fatherhood/shelters.html

Illinois: http://www.illinoisbiz.biz/bus/gri/grants_comm.html
http://www.thenightministry.org/serve/help1.htm

Indiana: http://www.elkhartysb.org/Helping Hand.htm


Iowa: http://www.geocities.com/ar_razzaq_the_provider/ia/hs.html

Kansas: http://www.ricksplace.org/needHelp/supportPhoneNos.htm

Kentucky: http://12.154.113.34:82/continuu.htm

louisiana: http://brgov.com/dept/ocd/esgp.htm
http://www.jeffparish.net/index.cfm?DocID=1675
http://www.dol-louisiana.org/catholic.html

Maine: http://www.projectgracemaine.org/about/accomplish.shtml

Maryland: http://www.homelesseast.org/Shelters By State/shelters_MD.htm
http://www.salvationarmy-rochasny.org/EPS.html


Massachusettes: http://www.actioninc.org/shelter.html
http://www.fobh.org/beyond.htm
http://www.womenofmeans.org/Clearin...ction_Agencies/community_action_agencies.html
http://elnom.com/mahome/state.html

Michigan: http://www.stclair-isd.k12.mi.us/services/homelessstu.html
http://www.arborweb.com/cg/t0114.html

Minnesota; http://www.lssmn.org/areas/areas_brainerd.htm

Mississippi: http://www.mrh4.com/shelter_care.htm
http://www.catholiccharitiesjackson.org/emergency_assistance.htm
http://www.mda.state.ms.us/programs/comm_assist/comm_grants_loans.htm

Missouri: http://stlouis.missouri.org/5yearstrategy/app_c(homeless).html

Montana: http://www.imt.net/~dist7hrdc/housing.htm
http://www.dphhs.state.mt.us/servic...ss_services/homeless_services_district_12.htm

Nebraska: http://crd.neded.org/hsginv/02homeless.html

Nevada: http://www.uwaysn.org/FundedPrograms/BasicNeeds.htm

New Hampsire: http://www.scshelps.org/homeless.htm

New Jersey: http://www.ci.trenton.nj.us/hhsfamily.html
http://www.westchestergov.com/planning/housing/Housing.htm

New Mexico: http://www.hud.gov/local/nm/homeless/foodbanks.cfm

New York: http://www.safehorizon.org/page.php?page=shelter
http://www.otda.state.ny.us/default.htm

North Carolina: http://www.mcdowellmission.com/

North Dakota: http://www.hud.gov/local/nd/homeless/serviceorgs.cfm

Ohio: http://www.neoch.org/
http://www.cincinnatigoodwill.org/individuals/housing.html

Oklahoma: http://domino1.odoc.state.ok.us/newhome/cad.nsf/pages/HumanDevelopment
http://www.okrehab.org/searchfiles/financial-assistance-central.htm
http://wtw.doleta.gov/formula/99formula/ok.asp

Oregon: http://www.svdplanecounty.org/mainsite/emergency.html

Pennsylvania: http://www.caring4u.org/Hsd/Homeless.htm
http://www.uwsepa.org/members/labor_resources_orgs.html
http://www.dlcmcdc.org/Activities and Operational Informations.html
http://www.carnegielibrary.org/subject/socserv/homeless.html

Rhode Island: http://www.episcopalri.org/ec_grantees.cfm

South Dakota: http://www.yanktoncontact.org/homeless.html

south Carolina: http://www.brooklandbaptist.org/resourcedirectory.htm


Tennessee: http://www.homelesscoalition.org/about us-agencies.htm
http://www.korrnet.org/ooa/service/caccrisis.html



texas: http://charities.dallasnews.com/2002agencies.html
http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/health/ms_homeless.htm

Utah: http://www.nationalhomeless.org/local/utah.html

Vermont: http://www.va.state.vt.us/index.htm

Virginia: http://www.stmarysrichmond.org/human.html
http://www.carpentersshelter.org/
http://www.a-span.org/programs.html

Washington: http://www.cityofseattle.net/humanservices/csd/survivalservices/shelter.htm
http://www.ndcrt.org/resources/women_shelters.html

Washington DC: http://www.innercity.org/columbiaheights/agencys/aemergency.html
http://www.downtowndc.org/DevInit/Homeless/legal.html

West Virginia: http://www.huntingtoncitymission.org/housing.html
http://www.pinnaclemall.com/unitedway/agency.htm

Wisconson: http://www.samilwaukee.org/whatwedo/family.html
http://www.danejobs.com/crs/tenant.htm

Wyoming: http://www.vcn.com/~wch/services.htm

Its not the entire solution, but at least its a start. Its a lot better than choosing to do nothing, and allowing the suffering to continue.


----------



## Yari (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *A disheveled, chemically altered, physically dirt-encrusted creature wandering around in traffic wearing one shoe and loudly barking at each person who enters a building, demanding to know if they have change at the top of his lungs, is indeed human filth.
> . *



I see people coming onto this site, not really an expert, shouting at everybody, demanding attention....

Human filth is a state of mind, not a condition.

They may need a bath, they may be hostil, they may need to learn a new language, but that doesn't make filth.

Calling other people filth is the sure way to ensure the problem.

But anyway Your entiled to your oppionen no-matter how low I feel it is. I'm not into locking people up just because I feel they are in the lowest part of the "thinking" chain.

Have a very good day 

/Yari


----------



## Kirk (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson 1ST POST_
> *Don't worry. I won't post further on this thread under any circumstances.*



*sigh*  



> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson 2ND POST_
> *Good to know that all the liberal BS about Christ healing lepers, and that miserable, ACLU-inspired nonsense on the Statue of Liberty (she's French, you know--what can you expect?) about, "the wretched refuse of your teeming shores," has been done away with. *



I searched this entire thread and yours is the first mention of liberal, and ACLU.  Thanks for putting words in people's mouths
YET AGAIN.




> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *1. Seeing a intresting story on 60 mins about a lawyer that lost it all(wasnt his fault) was sleeping on the beach and trying to get it together and get a job. It amazed me how hard he tryed to get a shower and look desent so he would be able to get the most basic job.  These type of storys remind me that these people are humans and alot of times are just victoms of surcomstances.*



Most basic job? What happened to his law degree?  He couldn't
even get a job at McDonald's with a law degree?  That's odd ....
I have a friend that manages a Mickey Dee's and he's begging
for people.  BUT .. we're still not talking about a man such as this,
unless the man was out on the street spitting on people, blocking
their pathways and *demanding* money.  So many here are
quick to point the finger and call others heartless, because we're
won't stand for indecent treatment of ourselves or our families.



> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Also if  you go down town you can see teens/kids grandparents digging threw dumps and taking half eaten apples out of the trash because they just want something to eat.  If you cant spair a dollar or dont have it on you then nothing much you can do.  But if you just size them up and decide that because of your 90$ shoes you are better then them,  Take another look in the mirror....*



WOW, another oddity.  I've never seen that.  Not once.  And I
work "downtown" in a large metropolitan area.  I walk all over 
the streets of downtown and only see intrusive beggars.  Be
certain though, if I ever saw what you're describing, I'd give them
a hell of a lot more than just pocket change.  Other FACTS:
I've never owned a $90 pair of shoes, and I don't size people up.
Washington suddenly doesn't sound like a nice place, what with
the cost of shoes, it's citizens sizing people up, and so many kids
and senior citizens needing to rifle through dumpsters.  And now
people pointing the finger and accusing me of being a rich, vain
person... I'm more used to that from the likes of robertson.



> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Ok here is another question what should we do about the older people who are almost homeless need medical supplies that have to eat Dog Food to survive.  I find we ignore them some being veterans who have fought in our wars for us.  (AKA forgotten heros) *



At least where I live, there are multiple free hospitals and clinics.
Multiple shelters where people can go to get a hot meal, that's
made for human consumption.  I'll give ANY veteran of war a ride
the VA office.  Again ... Washington doesn't sound like a nice place
anymore.


----------



## Phil Elmore (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yari _
> I see people coming onto this site, not really an expert, shouting at everybody, demanding attention....



I don't see anyone shouting.  I also don't see anyone demanding to be seen as an expert in anything.

Here's an alternative perspective that contains within it a very edifying insight into the author's attitude:



> *'Plague' of panhandlers requires love, not punishment*
> 
> July 16, 2003
> 
> ...



Now that we've read that, who can identify what's wrong with it?

Here's a hint:



> *On the one occasion I was assaulted by a street person*, any real injury I suffered was due to the level of human despair I witnessed and the lack of resources available for those about whom I came to care deeply. [emphasis added]



When we are so blinded by our sense of collective societal guilt that we do not hold accountable a street person who _physically attacks us_, we are part of the problem -- a problem that leads to the societal _decay_ I decry.

Recognition of _reality_ is not a "lack of compassion."  The problem with political correctness and the heightened sensitivities it creates -- sensitivities that prompt so many of us to become outraged when confronted with the "desert of the _real_" -- is that it demands we substitute what we _wish_ was true for what _is_ true.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 18, 2003)

Dear Kirk:

Apologies for posting. But compared to some of the the pernicious nonsense (life's guerrilla warfare! everybody homeless is a threat! hate them!) posted, I ain't feeling too awful...

As for the no comments about liberals and the ACLU---you are unwise, grasshopper, to challenge my reading skills. Here's "Ender," this thread, page 2, I believe:

"...in the early 80's the ACLU took the government to court to release many people who were mentally ill or institutionalized. They claimed they were being held against thier will and the government were holding them prisoners. The ACLU won the case and the government had to release them. Many of these patients had no one to release them to, so they were just released into the public. Since the government could no longer house these people, funding was then removed. Many people blame Reagan for being callous and not caring for these people, but really the ACLU is to blame..." 

I was extremely pleased to see that the majority of folks on this thread are sensible, decently-spoken, and knowledgeable.

Incidentally, "Sharp Phil," I lived in Syracuse, 1991-1992, and not in the best part of town either. None of this stuff ever happened to me. My best buddy from grad school, lives on Fellowes Ave.? Nice part of town? About '97, the cops had to take a backhoe to one of his nice neighbors' back yards...seems the local teenage girls had been disappearing...

I suggest that anyone who wonders about connections among certain political philosophies would do well to visit Mr. Elmore's website, which among other things offers quotes from Robert E. Lee (!) as refutations of, "collectivism," in all its forms, and cites Ayn Rand (of course) as a political/moral/philosophical authority.


----------



## Kirk (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *As for the no comments about liberals and the ACLU---you are unwise, grasshopper, to challenge my reading skills. Here's "Ender," this thread, page 2, I believe:
> *



My bad!  My not so humble apologies, sir!  

I don't see how I missed it .. I did a freaking scan! ... but oh well ..
still sorry for the comment, my mistake.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Their needs?   What, a drink, or crack fix?  If they have a mental
> problem then they need to go to a facility for treatment .. my tax
> dollars are already there to help him.  If they have a drug
> ...



... you need to BE one of these people for a while.  You probably never even worked in a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen.  Well I have, and maybe if you did, your attitude would be more mature and not based on ignorant FEAR.

You have no idea the demographics of these people, I assurwe you.  A HUGE persentage of the homeless are disabled veterans, for Chr*st's sake!  Your supposed tax dollars taken from your cozy paycheck are wasted, but not on what you think.  Why do you think there are so many charities out there if it's so easy to get treatment for illnesses or addictions, and there's plenty of jobs for people without specific skills or degrees.

Just tell them to eat cake ... :barf:


----------



## 7starmantis (Jul 18, 2003)

I haven't read the entire thread, but by reading the first post by Phil, I don't see how anyone else hasn't noticed this attempt at a flame war. To use words like all, everyone, is a little generalization I think, and I don't believe anyone has the right or authority to judge another human being, especially when its in such a broad generalizing statement. Living in Houston for several years as a paramedic, I've seen homeless people kill and maim others, and I've seen "normal" people kill and maim homeless people. To make a statement like Phil's you might as well say that a certain race is filth or manimals, its just as generalized.

mho,
7sm


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *The question I have is, given that we all base things on our own biases and opinions.... is that guy, who is wearing rags, who smells like a compost heap, beggin for a buck ...
> ...
> We have no way of knowing what his story is, as we just look at him and judge.*




:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *A disheveled, chemically altered, physically dirt-encrusted creature wandering around in traffic wearing one shoe and loudly barking at each person who enters a building, demanding to know if they have change at the top of his lungs, is indeed human filth.
> ...
> I watched as he took a peaceful afternoon and turned it into an exercise in harassment for all within earshot.
> ...



No pity?  No concern for him as well as the people around him?

It sickened you, and yet you didn't even confront the situation?  Just p*ssed and moaned about it taking a bite out of your beautiful day, eh?

Some of these people backslid as a self-fulfilling prophesy.  People over time and stress begin to act as they are judged and treated.

PLEASE, for the love of all that is holy, tell me you don't call yourself a Christian!


----------



## Kirk (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *... you need to BE one of these people for a while.  You probably never even worked in a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen.*



Nice assumption on someone you've never met.  An incorrect one,
I might add.  But I don't go around toting my charitable acts, 
otherwise it's not charity.



> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> [BWell I have[/B]



Woopsie!    



> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *your attitude would be more mature and not based on ignorant FEAR.*




Ah, you call it ignorant fear, but I call it "SEEING IT WITH MY OWN
EYES".



> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *You have no idea the demographics of these people, I assurwe you.  A HUGE persentage of the homeless are disabled veterans, for Chr*st's sake!*



WoW, really?  So that means that women and children are being
forced to serve in the military (it's already been stated that a 
HUGE percentage of the homeless were women and children) 

Are you also saying that VA benefits are a farce?  Funny, I guess
I should tell my dad that the check he's been getting every month
doesn't really exist.



> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *Why do you think there are so many charities out there if it's so easy to get treatment for illnesses or addictions,*



Because charities are great tax shelters and pay the salaries of
a lot of people who .. *sniff* claim to care so much.  If you want
to report some facts, how about finding out how much of the
donations to the United Way actually end up in the hands of 
those they supposedly "help".



> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *and there's plenty of jobs for people without specific skills or degrees.
> *



Hey, more homework .. tell me how many pages of want ads are
in the New York Times today?

Call McDonald's corporate and ask how many positions they have
available in the U.S. on any given day.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Astra _
> *It's not all that bright..
> 
> ... I had already started on MAs back then and after asking him about ten times to let go and be gone, I told him that I would hit his face in, if he refused once more. Next time, he let go alright.
> ...



Compassion doesn't mean not hitting him if you have to.  It means ONLY hitting him to let go, and not beating on him just because.  If you fear the homeless now, I'm sorry.  The guy may have been as a**h*le his whole life, or just desperate or deranged, or wahtever.

Those of us here with a little respect for humanity aren't trying to tell anyone not to be unprepared or lie there like a doormat.  All we are saying is that even the worst human being -- their fault or not -- must be dealt with as necessary, yes, but not looked upon as less than what we all are -- human.

Here's my motto:

God doesn't ask you to like everybody.  He just wants you to Love them.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Nice assumption on someone you've never met.  An incorrect one, I might add.  But I don't go around toting my charitable acts,
> otherwise it's not charity.
> 
> ...



Clever ... don't quit your day job to run for office.




> *
> Ah, you call it ignorant fear, but I call it "SEEING IT WITH MY OWN
> EYES".
> 
> *



You may as well not have eyes if you can't see the forest for the trees.  It is not objective ... I still say you see with ignorance and fear.  Sorry.



> WoW, really?  So that means that women and children are being
> forced to serve in the military (it's already been stated that a
> HUGE percentage of the homeless were women and children)
> 
> ...



You know, you take FACTS I stated and turned them around with irrelevant counter-examples that don't add up to quat.  Shall I go through point by point?  Maybe your day-job IS being a politician.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 18, 2003)

Guys. keep it civil.....




As to the job front, (This is more towards Kirks questions), having worked at both a BK and a McD, I can tell you in all honesty, they don't want the 'over educated'.  McD especially.

The staff at the 1 that I worked at broke down as follows:
75% highschoolers
15% career McD. (IE started there, worked their way up, little to no college)
10% are just passing through.

5 of the employees are 'assisted living'. (In the old days we would call them retarded, but thats not PC anymore.) These folks are unfirable due to the clout of their support group.

The enviroment is an artificial preasure cooker (meaning at 'rush' times, it gets insane, and its mostly due to the people not thinking'.

The Educated/Experienced will go insane in that place. (I did)

Now, you can say "But its a job."

Yes it is, but it is one that the 'white collar' is not suited for, and the store management knows this.  They have a position to fill.  Which one do you choose?

1- Guy with a Law degree
2- Gal with 5 years network administration, MCSE, CISCO, A+, Net+
3- 16yr old high school kid who goes to the same school as your crew chief
4- 'Patrick', a talented kid with downs syndrome, and a speach impediment?

Due to the tax breaks you get, you take 'Patrick'.  You may also hire the 16yr old.   The lawyer and the geek in all probability dont even get an interview.  Too over qualified, and too 'set' in their ways.  

The problem with the homeless is that unless they can get a break, showing up for a job with no address, dirty, unkenpt and yes, a bit ripe, are not ways to win a position.  Especially in food handling.  Some places don't have shelters or clinics where they can clean up.  Sometimes, there just arent the resources available.  If you have 1 set of clothes, what do you wear while you wash them?  

We who have so much can't comprehend the feelings of the hungry as we go by full.
:asian:


----------



## Ender (Jul 18, 2003)

rmcrobertson:

well my point wasn't to bash liberals or anything like that. it was to show that a sequence of events can occur and create a situation that was caused by a certain action.The entire story wasn't told. Instead, the issue was politicized rather than finding the root cause of a problem or a solution. all that is reported was an increase in homelessness.

There are many reasons for homelessness, some are bad choices, some are due to bad luck, some are due to drugs, and some choose to be that way.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

We're both escelating into a flame war (at least I am) and I shouldn't assume your experience isn't valid.

I still don't agree your interpretation of what experience you have is emplematic of the conditions out there, but then that might be where you live, too.

In Buffalo, the homeless shelters are overfull in the Winter, taking women and children first.  Some people in the "industry" here say over 75% of the men are veterans.  

I've worked with them in various situations -- and there's no virtue in not saying it out loud when it needs to be said -- I promoted kids' exposure to the needy as a religious ed teacher, so that "feeding the hungry" wasn't throwing a can in a box so hunger could remain faceless to suburban white boys and girls.

The effect?  They saw the good, the bad, and the ugly, but in a context where they would not debase themselves by looking down on the poor, sick, homeless, and even those who are drug-addicted, potentially violent, and the like.  And that takes a lot of courage, even for us Christ-following types.

What I'm really trying to say is the old "walk a mile in his shoes" thing, and not just imagining whatt it's like from the outside.  I still think you'd be a changed person.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jul 18, 2003)

There was this kid in my university who was purple. He stank bad, had unkempt hair, horribly outdated clothes and no fashion sense at all, he would allways ask for a ride home after school, it was bothersome and harrasing! Then, one time, I was walking down the street and this other purple guy came and grabed me and tried to beat me up! I had to kick his ****. Then, get this, I saw another purple person and she asked me what time it was! Can you believe it! I knew at that moment that all purple people were trash. All purple people were violent, no good, filthy stinking manimals.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *
> Call McDonald's corporate and ask how many positions they have
> available in the U.S. on any given day. *



Does anyone honestly think they can keep a roof over their head by working at McDonalds?

Most of the "minimum wage" type jobs are for people who live with their parents, are retired, dorming on a scholarship, etc..  No judgemnt against anyone, it's just an observation, and I thinks there's some truth to it.

If the only job you could get was Paperboy, for example, would it be anything more then enough to buy a drink to dull the pain of poverty?  What would the average person do if they couldn't meet shelter needs?  And what if *I* was that person, unable to provide for my family?  Would I steal?  Would I become less than mentally stable from the strain, watching my loved ones go without?  Would I resent both the people that gave me change and those who did not?

You all may say you'd be okay and pick yourself up by your jockstrap, but I'm not talking about you in particular.  I'm talking about the average person (or even the below average half of humanity).  Should we judge them for lack of luck, ambition, heartiness, perseverence, etc..

We're not all yogis and masters of life or our destiny.  We are NOT born equal, except that we all die just the same.  In between, we use and develop different gifts and live in almost different worlds from each other.  As idealistic as we Americans are, we do NOT have the same opportunities as the person next to us.  We have our own, and God forgive us if we don't figure it out in a single lifetime.  And man forgive us if we succumb to our limitations and circumstance.

:soapbox:


----------



## Kirk (Jul 18, 2003)

The point I've been trying to make is that there's a big damned
difference between the homeless family man that's have a rotten
run of luck, and those that have created homelessness for 
themselves, on purpose, because 1) it's easier to given a handout
than to work for it  2) they have some drug addiction and can't or
won't put it down.  Don't they say that the first step is admitting
you have a problem?  Well no one can do that for them, can they?

The homeless people you're describing are not the ones out there
demanding my charity in a confrontational manner.  I just don't
buy it, sorry.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *The point I've been trying to make is that there's a big damned
> difference between the homeless family man that's have a rotten
> run of luck, and those that have created homelessness for
> ...



There will always be the intentionally poor as long as there are blind charities and liberals, etc..  But are they worse living on our scraps than people who fraud disability at their job so they can watch a plasma-screen TV in a warm apartment all day?

I'd rather buy half a sub for someone who asks for a dollar than assume because he's a jerk at that moment in his life (for whatever reason) that he doesn't deserve a break.  I don't care what made him a jerk.  As long as he doesn't infringe on my liberty, he's welcome to his own.

You personally don't owe him anything, except respect as a human being, regardless of what he does (or doesn't do) with himself as a person.  Can we agree on that?


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *... All purple people were violent, no good, filthy stinking manimals. *



<DELETED MY OWN POST FOR THE SAKE OF HUMANITY>


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 18, 2003)

Here's a little number goin' out to all the wretched refuse from that wacky songster, William Blake...a lil' song called, "The Human Image:"

Pity could be no more
If we did not make somebody poor
And Mercy no more could be
If all were as happy as we

And mutual fear brings Peace
Till the selfish Loves increase;
Then Cruelty knits a snare
And spreads his baits with care.

He sits down with holy fears
And waters the ground with tears
Then humility takes its root
Underneath his foot

Soon spreads the dismal shade
Of Mystery over his head
And the catterpillar and the fly
Feed on the Mystery

And it bears the fruit of deceit
Ruddy and sweet to eat;
And the raven his nest has made
In its thickest shade.

The Gods of the Earth and Sea
Sought thro' nature to find this tree
But their search was all in vain
There grows one in the human brain.

They said this mystery shall never cease
The priest promotes war & the soldier peace

There souls of men are bought and sold
And milk fed infancy for gold
And youths to slaughter houses led
And beauty for a bit of bread.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *The homeless people you're describing are not the ones out there demanding my charity in a confrontational manner.  I just don't buy it, sorry. *



Why do you feel that you can make that distinction? 
As Tupac said,"Only God can judge me". Why do we feel that as "normal, upstanding citizens" we can judge anothers life or judge what has put that person in that situation? Even if it was because of their own greed or selfishness that put them there, have you never had a temptation of greed or selfishness? Why cast stones at someone rather than try and go after the root issue? your attacking the person without trying to give any thought or consideration to what could help them. If they truly are the 





> *disheveled, chemically altered, physically dirt-encrusted creature wandering around in traffic wearing one shoe*


 that you are implying they are, then why not get to know the issues of one of them, help him/her get into a program to solve the real issues, rather than just piss and moan about human filth. Aren't they refusing to address the issue by loudly asking for change? Aren't you doing the same thing by calling them human filth and manamals? neither of you are trying to address the issue.

jmho,
7sm


----------



## Kirk (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *There will always be the intentionally poor as long as there are blind charities and liberals, etc..  But are they worse living on our scraps than people who fraud disability at their job so they can watch a plasma-screen TV in a warm apartment all day?
> *



Barely ... the only difference is that they're not violating my 
personal space and yelling at me, or threatening me or my family.




> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *I'd rather buy half a sub for someone who asks for a dollar than assume because he's a jerk at that moment in his life (for whatever reason) that he doesn't deserve a break.  I don't care what made him a jerk.  As long as he doesn't infringe on my liberty, he's welcome to his own.*



I used to carry around McDonald's gift certificates, and offer them
whenever I'd run into somebody that'd claim to be hungry.  No
one ever accepted them, they wanted cash.  



> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *You personally don't owe him anything, except respect as a human being, regardless of what he does (or doesn't do) with himself as a person.  Can we agree on that? *



When they get on my ***, in an intimidating/threatening manner, 
and get confrontational ... I don't owe him respect, I owe that to
myself and my family.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jul 18, 2003)

I proclaim this thread officially a flame war.
Every sincere and honest question or statement I have made has been overlooked in eagerness to flame someone else. Let's remember that we are here to have a friendly discusion of the martial arts. Lets show our respect for others adn each other by not divulging in a flame war. eh?

7sm


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Barely ... the only difference is that they're not violating my
> personal space and yelling at me, or threatening me or my family.*



No, one is annoying you in public, while the other is destroying the fabric of society.



> I used to carry around McDonald's gift certificates, and offer them
> whenever I'd run into somebody that'd claim to be hungry.  No
> one ever accepted them, they wanted cash.  [/B]



The solution?  Don't give them anything.  That's what I do, and rightfully so.



> When they get on my ***, in an intimidating/threatening manner,
> and get confrontational ... I don't owe him respect, I owe that to
> myself and my family. [/B]



You don't "respect" your enemies either I suppose?  I'm talking about the basic meaning of respect -- giving people what they are due.  Sometimes that means not supporting their habit.  Sometimes it means smiling, and saying you can't thelp them.  And it means setting them straight if they put a hand on you.

It does not mean they do not deserve survival, but it does mean being given the 77th chance at making more of themselves.  Or the 177th.  It means not writing them off as disposable.  You never know what even the worst of us may become, or at least play a part in something good in the end.

(I'm starting to think Golum now ...  )


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> * ... Every sincere and honest question or statement I have made has been overlooked in eagerness to flame someone else. ...
> 7sm *



Not overlooked.  Irrefutable, perhaps, but not overlooked.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Recognition of reality is not a "lack of compassion."  The problem with political correctness and the heightened sensitivities it creates -- sensitivities that prompt so many of us to become outraged when confronted with the "desert of the real" -- is that it demands we substitute what we wish was true for what is true. *



On the other hand, some of the disparaging terms you used to describe people were clearly matters of opinion (e.g. 'manimal') and not of objective _reality_. I agree that wariness is needed and frankly, on balance, I would support an 'aggressive panhandling' law despite sympathy with the editorial you quoted.

I read an article today about a pizza place paying homeless people in pizza to carry a sign saying words to the effect of "Joe's Pizza paid me to carry this sign and not panhandle" (for an hour or whatever the time unit per slice was). It was meant as an advertising gimmick that helped not only the homeless but also those bothered by them--possibly more the latter than the former. I like this approach! The homeless man quoted did too (and added that he and his friends were "professional panhandlers"). I don't believe that giving money directly is the best move--it opens one up to the danger of getting too close (though saying no can aggravate the situation also, and as we always say "Give them your wallet rather than fight, for your own safety!"), plus too often it will either go to alchohol and drugs, _or_ will be spent honestly but unwisely. Giving to a charitable organization is better in my opinion. We have an excellent one here in Terre Haute, The Lighthouse Mission.

Being wary is important--that goes without saying. Disparaging entire groups of down-on-their-luck people as you did is unnecessary and offensive. That isn't political correctness--that's sympathy. Charity to the poor is a tent of many major religions and is consistent with an "all men are equal" philosophy. I can be both proetective and compassionate. I don't need to hate, despise, or otherwise denigrate those I fight--that's the opposite of the attitude I want for myself as a martial artist. Unlike a movie martial artist, I intend to win even if the opponent hasn't already killed my brother, assaulted my spouse, and kicked my dog.

(Add me to the list of ex-Syracuse residents, 1981-1985 and summer of 1986, living off Euclid Ave. near the university the last two summers and studying karate at ECOH on Euclid.)


----------



## arnisador (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *Does anyone honestly think they can keep a roof over their head by working at McDonalds? *



If so, see this book:

_Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America
by Barbara Ehrenreich_


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 18, 2003)

can you get by in America on a McDonald's wage? Absolutely not.  Frankly, I couldn't get by on a teacher's salary, which is considerably higher.  I took home about $1600 per month teaching.  My rent is $910.00, and I don't live in a supernice place... its in a safe neighborhood, which is really all I was looking for.

The median rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in california is $747.00.  The national average is $602.00. (HUD)

California minimum wage is $6.75... this means that the person in question is only making $1080.00 per month... assuming at least 20% goes to uncle sam... this leaves the person in question with $865.00... subtract $747.50, and this leaves the person with only $117.17 left to:

pay the electric bill....minimum of like $35.00
pay the water bill... usually $25.00 (apartments don't usually include this anymore)
eat
pay for transportation to work...and california's public transportation system sucks.


Also... all this is assuming that the person could even find an apartment complex to rent to them... most complexes want you to make at least three times the monthly rent before taxes... so, even if he had a McDonalds job, he STILL would be homeless!

Sure... perhaps he could just rent a room somewhere.... average price for that in california is around $400.00... not a whole lot better... AND, that's assuming that someone would willingly share their home with someone from the streets... again, not likely.

just something to think about...  and that was median rent for ALL of california... not just southern... southern california's median rent is around $1000.  San Francisco's is even higher.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 18, 2003)

Even more than the rent per se--which one can manage by taking a less desirable place, roommates, etc.--is the deposit. If you need to give first and last months' rent or some similar deposit on such a wage, that's a real problem. Living in cars or motels is a common solution.

And once again, there's the vicious cycle. If you have to live in a motel it may well be more expensive, plus you don't have a real refrigerator or kitchen so you spend more on food than if you could buy larger quantities and refrigerate/freeze them or boil water and make macaroni and cheese like a college student often can. If you're living in a car you may be eating fast food--once again, there goes a shot at saving.

In any event, many people who are homeless are working one or two jobs and still not getting into the system.

The unemployed street person who is using alcohol or drugs and panhandles as a means of income isn't representative of all homeless people. If you ate a restaurant or stayed at a hotel today you may have been served by a homeless person.

Yes, be wary around the street person you meet--clearly they are in desperate straits, and they may be mentally ill. Take your hands out of your pockets, keep your eyes up, and speak firmly if you speak to such a person. Still, one can be both firm and polite.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *can you get by in America on a McDonald's wage? Absolutely not.
> ...
> Also... all this is assuming that the person could even find an apartment complex to rent to them... most complexes want you to make at least three times the monthly rent before taxes... so, even if he had a McDonalds job, he STILL would be homeless!*



Thanks for the dose of reality.  That's one of endless reasons why the length of the want-ads is irrelevent to any particular individual.  In fact, there are few communities with services providing the homeless with access to a phone number or address to use for contacts with potential employers.

I'm not trying to blame society or glorify the homeless as doing everything possible against impossible odds, but again ... walk in their shoes ... listen to what they and the professionals who work with them say.  Not the flaming liberals who want to toss them scraps at the taxpayers expense, but the people in the trenches that really are trying to make a difference.

But then, that would be scary, wouldn't it.  If you didn't have close friends and family around (and many people don't), how many days without a paycheck before YOU were homeless?

We can't (or are afraid) to comprehend this.  Some of us are cushioned by credit cards, options of bankruptcy, selling a few things, trimming our portfolio perhaps.  But many people have no credit, no investments, and little to sell.  Some hard-working poor (they do exist) and even the not-so-poor, are only a handful of missed paychecks from being evicted.  Then the cost of living increases as mentioned above.


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 18, 2003)

Not that my opinion matters much, but I will continue to ask that person on the street their name, give money or buy them food when I can. I will continue to treat them like a human being regardless of the circumstances they're in. It's just far to easy to excuse not being compassionate. If my caring attitude gets me in trouble one day then I will deal with it.

Nuff said


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _
> *If my caring attitude gets me in trouble one day then I will deal with it.*



I refuse to live in fear and suspicion as well.


----------



## Kirk (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *can you get by in America on a McDonald's wage? Absolutely not.  *



Ah, so the message here is, tis better to beg for money than try
to earn it.  If I ended up homeless, you can bet that I'd have 2,3,
4 whatever number of jobs to support my family .. I wouldn't go
out and _*demand*_ that others hand over the
money that they earned.  I'm not say I wouldn't resort to 
panhandling ... I'm saying  you can bet every penny you've 
earned, and ever will earned that I will NOT get in your personal
space, spit on you, call you names, and get in the personal space
in a confronting manner of your family.    And you can be damned
sure that you won't see me with an alcoholic beverage in my hand
unless someone walked up and gave it to me.

AGAIN .. this is NOT about
fricken homeless people down on their luck .. this is about people
demanding money like you owe it to them, and having a 
threatening demeanor about them.  But since people insist on
bringing it up ... nightengale .. you posted your salary, your rent ..
how much of that salary goes to the homeless?  You posted the
averages of so many expenses .. why not be fair and post how
much the government puts out in foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and
assisted housing?  Why not post the COST of the rent in assisted
housing?  Why not post the estimated national amount of welfare
fraud perpetrated by homeless people.  Why not post the 
average number of people that scam the system, take food out
of the mouths of their own kids to they can buy beer?  

I'm sure those that think every homeless person on this earth has
a degree and just needs a break will come back and tell me how
rare it is that people use foodstamps to scam beer money ... but
again .. I've worked in places that have accepted foodstamps, and
I saw it multiple times every single day I worked (5 - 6 days a 
week).  I've been threatened at least a dozen times by homeless
people.  I've seen people I've given money to walk right into a 
store and buy booze.


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## Nightingale (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Ah, so the message here is, tis better to beg for money than try
> to earn it.
> *


*

no, Kirk. That isn't what I said. I simply said that McDonalds jobs were probably not a viable solution.  I didn't suggest ANY solution to the problem at all.  I don't know if there is one.





			But since people insist on
bringing it up ... nightengale .. you posted your salary, your rent ..
how much of that salary goes to the homeless?
		
Click to expand...


Kirk, I give you the courtesy of spelling your name correctly. Please do the same for me... its Nightingale.  Two "i"s, one "e".  Just like the bird.

Wasn't planning on posting this, but since you asked...
how much of my salary goes to the homeless?... aside from the government programs supported by my tax dollars, I personally donated several hundred dollars in canned goods to a food bank last thanksgiving, and over a thousand in donations to various charities... and yes, when I was working in downtown LA and walked by homeless folks on the street, I usually gave them whatever was in my pockets at the time... probably around five to ten dollars a week.  I also started carrying granola bars in my coat pocket, and on occasion would give those out instead.   Personally, I can't see someone cold and hungry and not do at least a little something to help.




			You posted the averages of so many expenses .. why not be fair and post how much the government puts out in foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and assisted housing?  Why not post the COST of the rent in assisted housing?  Why not post the estimated national amount of welfare fraud perpetrated by homeless people.  Why not post the average number of people that scam the system, take food out of the mouths of their own kids to they can buy beer?
		
Click to expand...


The cost of rent in assisted housing depends on A LOT of variables...

1. what's the income of the family to start with?
2. what's the market rent for apartments in the area?
3. what's considered the "poverty line" for that area?
4. how many people are in the family?

Assisted housing is evaluated on a case by case basis.  This is why I did not post those numbers.

if you have actual statistics (and appropriate sources) feel free to post them, rather than generalizations.  Of course there are people that abuse the system.  There are people that abuse EVERY system.  The way I see it... if I hand a dollar to five homeless people, and only one of those dollars actually goes to feed a child... then the loss of the other four dollars was worth it... after all, its only money.*


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## Kirk (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *no, Kirk. That isn't what I said. I simply said that McDonalds jobs were probably not a viable solution.  I didn't suggest ANY solution to the problem at all.  I don't know if there is one.
> *



But have you taken you fellow homeless persons there to apply?
Surely $865 is enough to buy food in California?  



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Kirk, I give you the courtesy of spelling your name correctly. Please do the same for me... its Nightingale.  Two "i"s, one "e".  Just like the bird.
> *



Yeah, okay  



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Personally, I can't see someone cold and hungry and not do at least a little something to help.
> *



Cold? In L.A?  But $1100 last  year, good for you.



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Assisted housing is evaluated on a case by case basis.  This is why I did not post those numbers.
> *



Post it??? You didn't even _mention_ it.
Do they not extend assisted housing to the homeless?? Hmm .. perhaps because as inexpensive as they are, they still 
require that you get your butt out there and work?



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *if you have actual statistics (and appropriate sources) feel free to post them, rather than generalizations. *



What did I generalize?  That they exist??



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *There are people that abuse EVERY system.*



True .. but there's a TON that abuse welfare ... daily.



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *The way I see it... if I hand a dollar to five homeless people, and only one of those dollars actually goes to feed a child... then the loss of the other four dollars was worth it... after all, its only money. *



The way I see it and have seen it over and over again... that 
rarely happens.


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## Nightingale (Jul 19, 2003)

ya see, Kirk, to apply for a job, you usually need an ADDRESS, and/or a PHONE NUMBER.

You also need:

a place to shower
a way to get your clothes clean
a way to get to and from work


no, I haven't taken anyone in to apply at McDonalds, for the sole reason that the managers would look at me like I was crazy.  I have, however, taken people over to the Los Angeles Mission for food and shelter.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 19, 2003)

Folks, 

keep it civil or I'll get '*The Belt*'.

And we dont want that now do we?

Especially since my pants might fall down.


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## Kirk (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *ya see, Kirk, to apply for a job, you usually need an ADDRESS, and/or a PHONE NUMBER.
> 
> You also need:
> ...



Hey, thanks for the education


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## Yari (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *
> 
> When we are so blinded by our sense of collective societal guilt that we do not hold accountable a street person who physically attacks us, we are part of the problem -- a problem that leads to the societal decay I decry.
> ...


*

I dont disagree with this at all.




			Recognition of reality is not a "lack of compassion."  The problem with political correctness and the heightened sensitivities it creates -- sensitivities that prompt so many of us to become outraged when confronted with the "desert of the real" -- is that it demands we substitute what we wish was true for what is true.
		
Click to expand...

*
But the way you think of the problem decides how you handle it, so thinking of it as filth, you will handle it that way.

It's state of mind, nothing to do woth reality. Reallity is that these poeple are people, not filth...




/Yari


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## 7starmantis (Jul 19, 2003)

Maybe I'm stupid, or maybe just naive, but I tend to look at this situation in a different way. If you take away all the arguments of WIC and Welfare, which Kirk mentioned, not that I know many actual homeless people on welfare its usually people who have a house, two cars, couple of dogs, several kids....oh wait, am I generalizing? Seems to be allot of that. 
Anyway, take away all those arguments and what do you have left? Yourself. Personally I choose to always be generous, to always be nice, and helping. If it gets me in trouble or in a tough spot, does that mean that I forsake generosity and kindness because it didn't work on someone? No, never, I choose to be that way and I will always be that way. 
I don't allow anyone else, let alone some stranger I see on the street, to have that much control over me. I control my own life and I choose to be compassionate, no one will or can change that, even a filthy, dirty, stinking street person who may not deserve another chance according to some of you. 
I propose that none of us deserve a second chance, I say that we have all been tempted with greed and self indulgence that may be the very vice that got these people to their situation in the first place. Why do we feel better than them like we can judge them? What have we done in our own lives that makes us in a situation to say another human being doesn't deserve another chance?


7sm


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 19, 2003)

Actually, it seems to me that the real question is: why see reality as being filled with threats?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 19, 2003)

Some interesting questions I found somewhere else:

A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:

 Trounce the rogue 
 Decline, knowing that no lasting good will come of it 

Entrusted to deliver an uncounted purse of gold, thou dost meet a poor beggar. Dost thou:

 Give the beggar a coin, knowing it won't be missed. 
 Deliver the gold knowing the trust in thee was well-placed. 

Think about it for a second....

:asian:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Actually, it seems to me that the real question is: why see reality as being filled with threats? *



Beacuse it sells magazines.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Some interesting questions I found somewhere else:
> 
> A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:
> ...



The Bully?  I don't teach lessons for free to such people.  I walk away.

The coins?  They are not only NOT mine to give, but I was entrusted to the judgment of my superiors, and not my own.   I agreed to do something for thier own purposes, therefore I accept them and do not assume my own.

My own coin?  It depends.  Would I give them a ride to the next town if it wouldn't slow my expected time?  I would let them on a horse while I walk aside (holding the stippup, of course) -- a little exercise never did any harm, right?


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 24, 2003)

The free articles for this month's _The Martialist_ are finally online.  I'll be following up with an August issue shortly to get back on schedule.  I think most will find these were worth the wait.   Included are some follow-ups to the homeless/street people issue.

Issue Intro

Free Articles Listing

The free half of the magazine includes:



> *The Martialist vs. The Pacifist*
> _By David W. Pearson and Phil Elmore _
> Our monthly feature, in which your editor and his teacher David debate the virtues of martialism versus pacifism.  This month we focus on the issue of panhandling.  Should street beggars be considered a threat, or should we see them as good people down on their luck?
> 
> ...



Enjoy.


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## Disco (Jul 24, 2003)

I have not taken the time to read all of the posts on this subject. If I should repeat a point that was already stated, my apology.

Our country had the same problem in the 30's. It was called the great depression. Bottom line was that lots of folks were out of work and homeless. The government did something about it. They put people to work. Building roads, bridges, dams etc. The same could and should be done today. It's a known fact that the countries infrastructure is falling apart. Roads and Bridges need major repairs. Plus there's a need for new one's. It did'nt kill our Grandfather's or Great Grandfather's to go to work like this. In fact it gave them a sense of pride to be working and taking care of the family. Something that seems to be missing from our modern day society.  

I guess many people need not see a TV news story on the homeless and panhandling. It was on about a year ago. Anyway, they interviewed a panhandler, one of the "will work for food" sign wavers. He made more money tax free in a day than most hard working people do. Why should I find a job he said, there's none that pay as good as this. After that show, many cities in the mid-south west made it illegal to panhandle without a permit. It was their way of not trying to be to insensitive to the plight of the less fortunate. Did'nt stop people, police just looked the other way, low priority. 

In my opinion, it's time for the Government to step in and do what should be done. The legit homeless out of work, restart the depresion era job corps and give them work and a place to live. The phonies out there, well you know where they can go........
:asian:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *... Our country had the same problem in the 30's. It was called the great depression. Bottom line was that lots of folks were out of work and homeless. The government did something about it. They put people to work. Building roads, bridges, dams etc. The same could and should be done today. ........
> :asian: *



Unfortunatley, "workfare" is being equated with slavery by the psycho-racists within the Black community, and people take it seriously.  And the ACLU would probably eat it up at every opportunity.  Heaven forbid people be forced to work for their money like the rest of us.


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## Disco (Jul 24, 2003)

The government in the 30's did'nt hold a gun to people's heads and demanded they work. They offered work to people who wanted / needed it. They were paid and housed and in turn did a service for the country. How can the ACLU attack that? As far as the racists go, again this is not a force generated threat. It is an offer by an employer (U.S. Govt) to the available workforce. It's the choice of the individual to avail themselves of the opportunity for employment. What can be profiled as racist with that? I think it's time in this country to STOP pandering to specialized groups and tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine. Our country. morally, economically and whatever other way you can think of, is going to hell in a hand basket. We have heard the mirroring of the Roman Empire and their fall. We may be on the same course or we may just implode from a civil war. The racial factions seem to be growing further and further apart. Starting to look like the 60's again. Don't mean to pontificate, just an opinion. 



 :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 25, 2003)

Ah yes, the "on the edge of apocalypse," fantasy, mixed with the "rise and fall of great powers," hallucination. 

I'm afraid the last post isn't even internally consistent. On one hand, present-day society is declinin' and fallin' by comparasion with the Good Ol' Days, on the other and at the same time the GODs were--the Great Depression. During which period we also had the rise of Nazism, the militarization of Japan, Jim Crow in this country...aah, the good old days.

Question: why was there a Depression and all them homeless people in the first place?


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## Disco (Jul 25, 2003)

So nothing of the last post has any relevance? There was nothing mentioned about apocalypticism. If any one is under an hallucinatory impression, it could be the person who thinks it's so.
There were no "Good ole Days". Every generation has had their problems. And in fact, it will continue as such. There was nothing remotely resembling wording on the rise and fall of world powers.
The prospect of a major civil disturbance and it's escalation is not farfetched. 

The base subject matter was about putting people to work and a question about law and racism. To negate the subject and dwell on a referance of opinion is a disservice to everyone's intelligence.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 25, 2003)

No suggestion of the coming apocalypse, eh? Nothing about the rise and fall of great powers? What's all this, then:

"Our country. morally, economically and whatever other way you can think of, is going to hell in a hand basket. We have heard the mirroring of the Roman Empire and their fall. We may be on the same course or we may just implode from a civil war. The racial factions seem to be growing further and further apart...."

The sources for this view of history are, most obviously, Gibbon's "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire," and the recent rewrite by what's-'is-name--"The Rise and Fall of Great Powers," both meant as cautionary tales.

The problem I have with these arguments--and more importantly, with the tangle of moral/political/cultural judgments that always gets dragged along with them--is that a) it's not true, b) it's not a sound representation of how history is shaped, c) the idea of The End is used to call for all sorts of really rather unpleasant actions.

Again, I ask--because it goes to the heart of the claims that laziness and moral incapacity is the ground of homelessness, poverty, etc.--is, why was there this Great Depression in the first place? Wouldn't have had anything to do with...uh...well....CAPITALISM, would it?

Here's the thing. You think, as far as I can tell, that phenomena like homelessness are accidents, aberrations of our social and economic system that can only be explained on the grounds of individual moral failure. I think they're not accidents at all; I think they're integral to the way the system works.

Thanks for the argument.


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## Disco (Jul 25, 2003)

Was on the racial admonishment and the ACLU giving credence to everything anti-social. I do infact agree with you on the cause an effect of the problem, Capilalism. Big business, in my opinion, has sold this country down the river. 

The use of the reference to the Roman Empire does have merit though. All through history, civilizations that prospered and fell had some basis for failure within their moralistic blueprint. Having the capitialists strive for excessive profits at the cost of the workforce losing jobs and income has a moral implication to me.
Armageddon, as we refer to it, is the end of the world. Just because a society should flounder or fall does not unto itself mean armageddon. How many countries/societies in the 20th century have fallen, and yet we are still here. If in fact, the American way of life as we now know it should dissolve, we would'nt disappear. We would just regroup and attempt to reconstruct. 

Thanks for the rebuttle. :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 25, 2003)

OK, fair enough...though I'm right about the apocalypse stuff.

It'd be interesting, in fact, to look at the way a lot of folks on these forums think of themselves as engaging constant threat, as "warriors," in a crumbling, threat-filled society--an idea that comes out a lot in science fiction.

But I like the way Cornel West's "Race Matters," damns both "sides," of the argument we're having...


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 25, 2003)

Why would anyone say an economic system was the cause of an event?  

If that were possible, such a statment would be even more rediculous considering the quality of life capitalism has brought us after the 30s.

If anyone here really cares to have a clue, the Great Depression was initiated by a stock market bubble burst after AFFLUENT EXCESS of the common man, followed by the Dust Bowl drought of America's bread basket, caused in part by inappropriate agricultural methods.

Saying Capitalism was the cause of the depression (which will occur in any economic system) is like blaming electricity for your lamp not working.

Bashing big business is just being burgeoisephobic.  If it weren't for the "big boys", we would have almost no libraries, art centers, museums, special schools, ad infinitum.  We'd be taxed twice what we are now just to hope the governemnt would take care of us like good little children.  

If you fully comprehended what Bill Gates and his wife alone spend on charity, your brain would bleed out your nose.

But I'm not so sure what any of this has to do with martial arts.


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## Kirk (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *Bashing big business is just being burgeoisephobic.  If it weren't for the "big boys", we would have almost no libraries, art centers, museums, special schools, ad infinitum. *



Not to mention JOBS.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Not to mention JOBS. *



Oh, and the funding and collaboration of MANY major advancements in medicine and every branch of science in the last century.

Oh, and the fast proliferation of new technology.

Oh, and to an extent the preservation of privately funded education.

And hospital wings.  And monuments.  And ... hey, wait a minute!

Why doesn't the Fortune 500 support martial arts??????

We're getting gyped!


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 25, 2003)

Well Ken....can any of us really imagine Mr. Gates in a gi?  I remember that Celeb. Death Match he was in a while back...it wasnt pretty.  (Ok, so the claymation Gates was tougher....) 

I am not a fan of BG or M$.  The fact is though, that the Gates Foundation does a hell of alot.  More than many of the better known money folk.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm


> The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is building upon the unprecedented opportunities of the 21st century to improve equity in global health and learningbecause the life and potential of a child born in one place is as valuable as that in another.
> 
> The foundation was created in January 2000, through the merger of the Gates Learning Foundation, which worked to expand access to technology through public libraries, and the William H. Gates Foundation, which focused on improving global health. Led by Bill Gates father, William H. Gates, Sr., and Patty Stonesifer, the Seattle-based foundation has an endowment of approximately $24 billion through the personal generosity of Bill and Melinda Gates.



I know they gave a few million to my own local libraries recently....


For another view of BG, Look here: http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3477.html

:asian:


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## Ender (Jul 25, 2003)

You cannot compare the Roman empire with Capitalism. They are two different economic models. one was built on extortion and oppression, while Capitalism is based on a sort of Darwinism (survival of the fittest). 

In reality, Business AVERAGES about 3-4% profit a year, hardly what some could call excessive profits. If any business would record record profits, everyoneBut the truth is that there are people who do not wish to work, period.


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## Ender (Jul 25, 2003)

If any business would record record profits, everyone would buy their stocks....But the truth is that there are people who do not wish to work, period....oops..*L


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 25, 2003)

Gee, hell, guys, I don't wish to work either.

As for the largess of capitalism---fill in loud explosive snort of derisive laughter here.

The money Gates et al. made did not come from nowhere, ya know.

You might really want to read up on basic economic theory/theory of capitalism as an economic system. Ricardo et al--a point I've made before--make it very clear that, "the market," has no moral responsibility whatsoever. Which is exactly my point. 

Again, I am more interested in this thread in the extent to which those dangerous human scum, "the homeless," prop up the idea that the end of martial arts study is to arm oneself fully against the ongoing moral collapse of our social order.

Thanks.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *... As for the largess of capitalism---fill in loud explosive snort of derisive laughter here. ... You might really want to read up on basic economic theory/theory of capitalism as an economic system. Ricardo et al--a point I've made before--make it very clear that, "the market," has no moral responsibility whatsoever. Which is exactly my point. *



Business is AMORAL by definition, as is Biology or Music.  But if there is any such thing as a moral economic system, it is Capitalism, because by its nature, it mirrors the morality of the culture it is applied to.  It is driven directly by the individual (collectively).  

And even though it rocks as an economic system, one thing is true -- Capitalism is no more greedy or philanthropic than human nature itself.

In other words, I am suggesting that any effort to (de)moralize capitalism as an ideology is wading in philosophical bullsh*t.


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## GaryM (Jul 25, 2003)

I've seen some interesting points of view here. Seems the range is from Mother Teresa to Adolph Hitler. Personally I don't have feelings about the street beggers except thank God I'm not one of them. I realize that it can happen to anyone. Anyone can grow up to be president (If thier daddy is a billionaire). I guess I'm kind of paranoid though. I don't assume that a car will stop for me just because I'm in a crosswalk, I practice safe sex, ( I could use more practice though), I don't try to pet stray dogs, AND I go into 'condition orange' whenever anyone I don't know well starts to invade my personal space. That's silly, I know. I probably should be wearing camouflage and living out in the backwoods in a shack. Then we have someone  here that actually had the audacity to imply that capitolism has major flaws. Burn the heritic! I'm glad that there were people here that pointed out how good massa has been to us 'house niggas'. Why, we could be field hands workin in de sweat shops in some godless country like China. Oh wait, what's this say on my shirt? 'Made in China' Gee thanks Sam Walton. Gosh , and the government say's they's gonna give us three whole hunnert dollars man! Kinda wonder what the Walton's and the Gate's and the Rockafeller's will do with thiers? They's such humanitarians they'll probably just use it for librarys and such and not even claim it as a deduction.  Ya know somebody should tell Mr. Gates that ifn' he'd have Melissa pop out a coupla youngins they might even get some real money back come next April.
  Hey anybody remember Country Joe MacDonald and the fish?
      Well it's 1, 2, 3, oil's what we're fightin for
      Don't care I don't give a damn, put a pipe through Afganistan
      5,6,7, let's watch CNN , got no time to wonder why, it's fun to watch Iraqes die. 
 Come on all you big strong men, GW's got us in a hell of a jam
 Mom can drive an SUV to the grocery store if her boy comes home in a box.

      Gee, I hope I didn't offend anyone. I so care. Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining!


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## progressivetactics (Jul 25, 2003)

like or dislike....
Sharp Phil, you have done your job well!  You have wrote an article which has made people fighting mad. You have created in them emotions and made them think much more about people on the street then they have done in probably months!  Whether it was to write their congress person about their situation, or enlist at a local shelter to do more, People have responded on this issue.  Exactly what a good writer does...Better to get negative reactions then No reactions.  You seemed to have a mix of good and bad!  Nice work!


Please remember everyone (if anyone is still reading all the posts or just venting their feelings about this without reading what was read),
This issue has struck on peoples nerves and turned into a religious (at times) and political (at times) debate.  2 things most know NOT to discuss, as it gets very heated.  Please everyone, remember that these are personal opinions about matters. Lets try to remain civil and don't take any of this to other threads. I don't want to see people looking to bash another poster on a different thread because of an out of control diatribe on this thread!!

Lets be civil, and look out for one another!!


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *I've seen some interesting points of view here. Seems the range is from Mother Teresa to Adolph Hitler.
> ...
> I realize that it can happen to anyone. Anyone can grow up to be president (If thier daddy is a billionaire).
> ...



You'd have some good points, too if you didn't cram our words wrongfully into black and white.

And Jimmy Carter was a farmer.  And I don't recall ANY president having a billionaire father.  And if they did, that would be no reason to vote or not vote for them.  Heaven forbid the financially successful do good things so they can be called hypocrates.  People NEVER deserve being rich, do they?  Long live Das Kapital (one of the poorest philosophical works of the genre)!



> ... AND I go into 'condition orange' whenever anyone I don't know well starts to invade my personal space. That's silly, I know. ...



NOBODY here said to let your guard down.



> ... Then we have someone  here that actually had the audacity to imply that capitolism has major flaws. Burn the heritic!
> [/B]



Nobody here denies the problems inherrent in Capitalism.  We're just not stupid enough to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Especially when the baby is responsible for a good part of mankind's recent upward spiral in living condition.  

Our "depressions" are nothing compared to the poverty of non-democratic, non-capitalistic states.  Anyone with a map and a marker can figure out REAL quick that countries and cultures that are both democratic (a system which has major flaws, too) and capitalistic (with its flaws) = unparalleled prosperity.

So if you don't like it, I'm not going to tell you to leave.  In fact, even if many of us don't agree with your attitude, we NEED people like you.  Vote for change.  Boycot whom you will.  

:soapbox:

But remember these are things you can only do in a society with these systems of government and economics to begin with.


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## don bohrer (Jul 26, 2003)

> So if you don't like it, I'm not going to tell you to leave. In fact, even if many of us don't agree with your attitude, we NEED people like you. Vote for change. Boycot whom you will.



I couldn't agree more.

Matter of fact if there's anything in this country that someone thinks should change they should work for it. Exorcise your right to vote is a good start. Volunteer for things that matter to you personally. Make sure your the one teaching your kids and not popular culture. This is all common sense, but I hear many people complaining, and few people working to fix what bugs them.


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