# Newbs with swords...



## Nyrotic (Oct 14, 2006)

Ok, so me and a couple of my friends recently ordered 40" wood bokkens with 1/4" foam sheathe on the blade. Now we ordered them with the sole purpose of sword sparring in mind, and unfortunately did not take into account that NONE of us know a thing about using bokkens, besides what we've taken from movies and such.

Now what I'm asking is where should I look (Online preferably, I'm short on resources) to learn more about using a bokken (As in, with any sword art, I'm not picky partly because I know so little about using swords). Now if all else fails, I'm wondering if self-teaching would be effective with a bokken, seeing as it was 20$ well-spent, and I'm not about to let it collect dust in the weeks to come.

-Nyro


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 14, 2006)

You'll find that the majority opinion is that nothing beats training under an established instructor. They can fine tune you and explain the nuances alot better than any book or video.

What to look for, depends on what your goals are.  

If you want to really learn how to use it, find an instructor.

If you want to do something less involved, like just put together a fight scene, or a light workout, then there are a number of good books and videos out there. I'm partial to the videos of Dr. Hatsumi, though most are in Japanese and not translated it seems.  

One thing to keep in mind - even with that small amount of padding, those things -hurt-, so wear protection when using. Helmets, and other padding will save you a world of hurt.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 14, 2006)

If you want to ever learn how to effectively use a sword then you need to find an instructor.  Playing with your friends will not teach you how to properly use a katana/booken.  I am pretty sure I know what you ordered and if they have a wood core they are not really suited for sparring.  Good luck.


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## Carol (Oct 14, 2006)

"If you don't realize you can kill someone with a bokken, I don't want you using one in *MY* dojo..." - Frederick J. Lovret 
 

Lovret Sensei speaks of the most important reason to not attempt to learn martial arts by playing with a bokken. 

Another reason is that a bad habit may take only moments to learn, but it can haunt a martial artist for a lifetime.

Movies and videos are great for getting interested in a cool art, but they don't teach anyone how to perform the art any more than a jazz video teaches the a person how to play the saxophone.  

One option could be returning the bokkens and then purchasing them when you and your friends are enrolled in a school.  Alternatively, get together with your friends and see if you can negotiate a deal at a proper sword school.  If you can't afford monthly classes, see if your friends can pool tuition (and travel costs, if necessary) for an instructor that will offer a group private lesson a few times a month.


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## Ceicei (Oct 14, 2006)

I see you are training in Kung Fu.  Many Kung Fu schools do teach some swordwork.  If yours do, be patient.  There will come a time when you can learn how properly.  If not, then perhaps ask your instructor to refer you to a good sword-based martial arts school.

- Ceicei


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## Grenadier (Oct 15, 2006)

First of all, welcome aboard!  

It's good to hear that you're interested in learning how to use the sword.  

Never try to imitate what you see on TV / movies, unless you've had formal training from a qualified instructor. 

While I cannot speak for all types of sword arts, I can tell you that using a bokken requires both strong muscle control, as well as fine muscle coordination.  While someone may have the former, it takes time to develop the latter, and such development must come from competent instruction.  

Swords of all kinds, no matter what the construction may be, can leave quite an impact.  Bokken will break bones, even Shinai (bamboo swords used in Kendo) will cause significant bruising, and can also break smaller bones with ease.


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## Ninjamom (Oct 15, 2006)

Second on all points above:
- If you really want to learn a sword art, get an instructor.
- Bad habits are easy to get, hard to break.
- Even wooden swords can kill/hurt/maim.

I loved Carol's suggestion about pooling resources to get some training; ANY instruction is better than none.  Even a brief introduction is beter than no proper training at all.

If you and your friends cannot find any sword instruction at all in your area, and you still want to bash away at each other for fun, I'd like to suggest something a little safer than bokkens; say maybe one of these:

ActionFlex padded sparring weapons for Chanbara: Chanbara is a Japanese sword sport with padded weapons.  It offers sport competitions, sparring matches, and some training in techniques that are actually derived from traditional legtitimate Japanese sword arts.  It adds in more realistic targets and scoring than kendo, and you can safely bash away at each other for fun, sport, or training, without serious injury or death.  On the down side, the sparring 'swords' are lighter than actual steel swords, and they bend, allowing 'scoring' when a real sword might not have achieved a lethal blow, and preventing realistic blocking/parrying.  Head gear is also provided for added safety.

 - OR -

Realistic Sparring Weapons: This company makes sparring swords, spears, shields, and other items that are actually weighted, balanced, and shaped to more closely resemble real fighting implements.  You can even choose Japanese, Chinese, or Western style swords, including hand-and-a-halfs or Scottish Claymores.  The website offers lots of video footage of sparring matches between practitioners of different weapons styles, with different types of weapons.  It also offers suggested sparring 'rules' and sparring tips.  While these weapons are padded for safety, you will still need a helmet, and I would recommend gloves (I use a stick-fighting helmet and Lacrosse gloves, though others have used riot, motorcycle, or hockey helmets, and paintball gloves).  The 'plus' side is that these weapons are much more realistic (closer to actual weapons' performance) than the Chanbara weapons, but the down side is that there aren't standardized rules and organized tournamants available for their use.

*Please* remember that I am only suggesting either of these as a *last resort* if absolutely *no* instructors are available in your area, and as a safer alternative to whacking each other with wooden objects.

Good luck and have (safe) fun!


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## Grenadier (Oct 16, 2006)

Also, if you can't find a Japanese sword arts teacher, you can still do some decent training in other sword arts, such as fencing.  There are many aspects of swordsmanship that carry over from one system to another, no matter how different the styles may be.  Things such as awareness, perception, etc., are all cultivated in any sword system.


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## WMKS Shogun (Nov 13, 2006)

I agree with pretty much everyone else who has posted so far: Seek instruction, understand that Bokkens, even foam covered Bokkens are dangerous. Since I did not see this story mentioned, I will add it on for you to think about. Miyamoto Musashi, Japan's most famous swordsman, stopped using a live steel blade and started using a bokken, and still killed many of his opponents. One story went as far as to say that he fought in a formal duel with a bokken he carved from a spare boat oar. His opponent was said to be very skilled and Musashi still won, killing his opponent in the process. Lessons: Musashi is awesome; Bokkens are dangerous; Musashi with bokken even more dangerous (though at least he knew what he was doing). 
   I would also advice using something like the actionflex weapons or get involved with a padded weapons league (such as dagorhir). Either way, no matter what you do, use good common sense and be safe.


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## pgsmith (Nov 14, 2006)

Hello Nyro,
You've now been officially christened with the results of asking for advice in fooling around. You've been offered some very good advice, I urge you to take it. However, I will offer you an alternative to ponder. Many people are just not interested in learning an authentic sword art. It's hard work, and takes a long time. If you and your friends are just wanting to fool around, I would advise choreographing your own fight scenes. This is the way that they do it in the movies. Each move is predetermined for looks and cool factor. The precise moves are memorized and practiced many times together, Eventually you and your friend will be able to go through the whole sequence at full speed. It looks cool, and no one gets injured. I would most emphatically urge you to NOT whale away at each other with bokken, even foam covered bokken. Actual "sparring" can result in severe injury and even death. "Why should we care?" you may ask? I don't really, in that I firmly believe everyone should be responsible for their own safety. However, if you accidently kill your friend with your bokken, then the newspapers are going to write up the story about you two "practicing sword arts" instead of just playing. That puts society one step closer to regulating, or outright banning, the arts that I practice. This makes me _very_ concerned for the welfare of anyone swinging a sword or sword-like object.

  Be safe. Legitimate instruction is the best thing!

  Cheers,


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 14, 2006)

Side note: Smaksticks makes a stiffer padded weapon than Actionflex. It's less "whippy" when struck, and can take a hell of a beating while minimizing the pain/damage you take on impact. The were discussing releasing a sword version, but their stick version would work great for short sword work.


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## Don Roley (Nov 22, 2006)

I think people missed an important point in the first post.



> Now we ordered them with the sole purpose of sword sparring in mind



Ok, so they are just in it for a little fun. As long as they are honest about it, who cares if they will never be expert swordsmen?

But the points raised here about how dangerous bokken are should be listened to. As stated, Miyamoto Musashi was famous for _killing_ people with bokken. I have heard it say he thought they would be about as deadly and less likely to break than steel.

Go to www.thearma.org and not only will you find some stuff on how to use a sword, but you will find detailed instructions on making safer sparring weapons yourself. You can use the bokken for solo practice.

You will never get good- period. But if you have fun in a safe manner while being honest about it, I don't see the harm in that.

But look at some of my posts here about self trained swordsmen trying to tell us what to do. I can be very nasty about people that won't go to teachers and try to pass themselves off as serious students of the sword. Fun is fun. The _real_ art of swordsmanship is much more than that. Keep yourself honest about what you do, and there will be no problem from people like me. I have more complaints about the guys training under teachers competing in extreme martial arts kata divisions.


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## Fu_Bag (Nov 23, 2006)

I think the ARMA stuff is an interesting route to investigate. Something to consider about self-training weapons is that weapon weilding requires the proper mangement/control of the weapon's momentum, among other things. This is especially important when using weapons around other people. With bokken, if you're training with them to learn how to use a sword, you're not actually learning to use a sword; you're learning how to handle a sword-shaped item. 

I'd say concentrate first on learning how to properly move and control your body before adding weapons. You can also use training weapons to improve the learning process but I wouldn't recommend it without a teacher. It'd be pretty crappy to accidently seriously injure a friend when you're trying to have some fun. That's why I think it's a good idea to get some good basic coordination and control in your body movement before you implement weapon sparring. Also, you don't want to have to unlearn some weird ingrained habits when/if you're lucky enough to get some good training.

Definitely check out the ARMA stuff. I've checked out their site and there's a lot of interesting stuff there. I believe there are also people involved in it who've had traditional sword training before joining the organization. I've seen come video clips and it looks very similar to katana work. They may even have a group in your area who gets together and does this stuff for fun.

Anyway, good luck, be safe, and enjoy whatever choice you make. 

Respect,

Fu Bag


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## Walter Wong (Dec 3, 2006)

If you can't find a dojo or instructor for the style you want near you, there are seminars held across the U.S. and other parts of the world.  Look for a seminar, pool together money for the seminar, vehicle transportation, and hotel.  It costs money but it's worth it.

You can check here every now and then for upcoming seminars:
http://swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=16

http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16
http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=136


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## wade (Dec 8, 2006)

Uh, say, Carol, is Fred Lovret still alive and around. I lost contact with him years ago and have been broken hearted about it since. this is not a joke. I have a couple of years worth of his newsletters, he gave me a heck of a lot of direction when was first starting out with the swords. Then Dale Kirby tuned me into competing with them. WHOA!


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