# Rushing through Hyung during class or one's own pace?



## Lynne (Aug 1, 2007)

Everyone (at least a white and yellow belt level) rushes through the forms in an effort to stay together.

Rushing makes a less than great Hugul Jaseh in Gi Cho Hyung Sam Bu.  I am trying to pop my hip out and really put the weight on the back leg.  And I want my aiming to be smooth.  I want my forms to be smooth yet dynamic when I punch and block.  This isn't easy to do when everyone is rushing.  In fact, I think it encoruages sloppiness.

One of the higher belts told me to go at my own pace to show that I can do the form correct.  I did that last night and the instructor didn't tell me to hurry up; there wasn't any feedback.   We have good instructors - this one just doesn't give feedback or correction.

I'm thinking about going to the morning classes because Master R teaches them and I KNOW he will give me corrections.

I'm just a little frustrated.  It's my daughter who is teaching me how to do Hulgul Jaseh.  The instructors haven't given me correction.  We do have large evening classes sometimes.

A long way to get around to the point, I guess.  But as instructors, do you encourage your students to go at their own pace or do you want everyone to keep together in the forms?

During tests, we keep together.


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## Kacey (Aug 1, 2007)

It depends on what the instructor wants.  As an instructor, sometimes I want all of my students to stay together; sometimes I will dictate the speed to the senior student present (often, when students have just learned a new tul, and I want them to be able to follow the senior students if they get lost, I will dictate a slower speed), and sometimes I won't.  There are times when I may specify a higher speed, so that I can see who really knows the tul; those who don't will get lost at the higher speed.  Other times, I will want students to go their own speed and work on technical details within the tul they are performing.  There are other reasons I might dictate the speed as well, and whether or not I want students to stay together, but you get the idea.

At testing and in competition students are told to perform their tuls at the speed they are most competent with... and even so, the most common negative comment is that they were going too fast to do the tuls correctly.


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## Lynne (Aug 1, 2007)

Kacey said:


> It depends on what the instructor wants. As an instructor, sometimes I want all of my students to stay together; sometimes I will dictate the speed to the senior student present (often, when students have just learned a new tul, and I want them to be able to follow the senior students if they get lost, I will dictate a slower speed), and sometimes I won't. There are times when I may specify a higher speed, so that I can see who really knows the tul; those who don't will get lost at the higher speed. Other times, I will want students to go their own speed and work on technical details within the tul they are performing. There are other reasons I might dictate the speed as well, and whether or not I want students to stay together, but you get the idea.
> 
> At testing and in competition students are told to perform their tuls at the speed they are most competent with... and even so, the most common negative comment is that they were going too fast to do the tuls correctly.


Thank you for the input, Kacey.  I think I see the students setting the pace, but that does depend on the instructor.  I think some instructors are just a bit more laid back  Next time, I'm going to ask!


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## Tez3 (Aug 1, 2007)

I go with Kacey here. 
I believe though that all katas/hyungs/patterns/forms etc have their own rhythm and speed. I do try to teach the students to feel for that as well as perform techniques correctly. If I've done the job properly come grading they will all be together.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 1, 2007)

The speed in which you are performing a hyung is completely dependent upon the intent the instructor has in mind.  Kacey stated some pretty good examples, so I'll elaborate on a couple of different points.

In general, in my dojang, we do our forms at our own speed.  We are a small operation, so its not such a big deal for a couple of students to be in completely different places at once.

In a larger dojang, however, having everyone do the forms as one unit really helps the teacher see who is having problems with this or that technique and it helps the student see the standard that they need to meet.  

In my teachers teacher's dojang, we worked forms in a very regimented way because it was so large and this was the best way that he could teach.  

My advice is that if you are concerned that you are being rushed, then I think that you should practice your form more often and then talk to your instructor.  See if you can show him your form at your own speed and get some more personal feedback.


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## jks9199 (Aug 1, 2007)

There are times when working on forms that you should go slow, concentrate on all the pieces, and really try to get it right.  But, sometimes, in a class setting, you have to push the pace a bit and keep up with the class.  Generally, I try to keep the pace balanced somewhere between the fastest and slowest students, and when I work a form "by the numbers" or in sets, I pause between counts or sets to let everyone catch up.

Listen to the guidance your instructors are giving you; they know what's happening in class, as well as where your skills should be at this point.  Sometimes, they know you won't get it perfect -- but want you to work it anyway.  I'll also sometimes not correct a student; they've got the basic pattern of the form, but just aren't ready for much more correction till they grind that in some more.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 2, 2007)

Especially with lower belts, we usually do hyung at the instructor/helper's count during class, so everyone stays together. Even at higher levels, we'll sometimes do it at the instructor's count the first time (our count the next). This helps to make sure every technique is distinct, not rushed through to the next, that correct stance is maintained, and that the instructor/helper can make comments/corrections between moves.


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## Lynne (Aug 2, 2007)

Thanks for the comments and clarification.

As I practice at home, I become more proficient.  You know, I notice the other students (yellow belts) aren't popping their hips out in the back stance though.  They are more or less balancing their weight between both legs.  Some people aren't on their toe on the front foot either.  I assume the instructors are just looking for correct stepping and punching right now.

We're testing end of August.  I guess we will learn the correct posture before then.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 3, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Thanks for the comments and clarification.
> 
> As I practice at home, I become more proficient.  You know, I notice the other students (yellow belts) aren't popping their hips out in the back stance though.  They are more or less balancing their weight between both legs.  Some people aren't on their toe on the front foot either.  I assume the instructors are just looking for correct stepping and punching right now.
> 
> We're testing end of August.  I guess we will learn the correct posture before then.



Heh. This is why I like being given junior belts to instruct. Correct stance is one of the things of which I'm most critical, since it's one of the things I work hardest at perfecting in myself. Half of my shouted corrections to students are "Lower stance!" or "All your weight on your back foot!" or "Front stance, both feet pointed the same way!" or something of that nature. Looking back to when I was that rank, those were the things pounded into my head by my sa bom nim, so I guess I learned from the master .


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## Lynne (Aug 3, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Heh. This is why I like being given junior belts to instruct. Correct stance is one of the things of which I'm most critical, since it's one of the things I work hardest at perfecting in myself. Half of my shouted corrections to students are "Lower stance!" or "All your weight on your back foot!" or "Front stance, both feet pointed the same way!" or something of that nature. Looking back to when I was that rank, those were the things pounded into my head by my sa bom nim, so I guess I learned from the master .


You were fortunate to have those things pounded in your head.  I'm thinking about going to the morning classes because they are smaller and Master R usually teaches them.  He has eyes all around his head, I think.  Really, he doesn't miss anything.

Your students are fortunate to have you, JT.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2007)

When doing kata though it's easy to concentrate on the 'perfect' stances at the expense of the bunkai though. I think good stances are ideal but shouldn't sacrifce the true point of kaya/hyung for good looking performances. I look for the understanding behind the moves before I look for a perfect stance.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 4, 2007)

Lynne said:


> You were fortunate to have those things pounded in your head.  I'm thinking about going to the morning classes because they are smaller and Master R usually teaches them.  He has eyes all around his head, I think.  Really, he doesn't miss anything.
> 
> Your students are fortunate to have you, JT.



They're not _my_ students, technically, since I'm not a kyo sa nim. I just usually get the job of making sure they go home good and tired after class.


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## DArnold (Aug 4, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Everyone (at least a white and yellow belt level) rushes through the forms in an effort to stay together.
> 
> Rushing makes a less than great Hugul Jaseh in Gi Cho Hyung Sam Bu. I am trying to pop my hip out and really put the weight on the back leg. And I want my aiming to be smooth. I want my forms to be smooth yet dynamic when I punch and block. This isn't easy to do when everyone is rushing. In fact, I think it encoruages sloppiness.
> 
> ...


 
NEVER sacrafice technique for speed.
Speed only comes from practice.

So....
Practice crap, perfect crap


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 10, 2007)

Hyung training is among the most important parts of our training and should be taught in stages

Stage #1:
Learn the techniques, one section at a time.

Stage #2:
Establish an understanding of application from both sides of the fight. In Okinawan and Japanese karate the terms are Bunkai and Oyo. Bunkai means; explanation of what the technique is doing. Oyo means; what is the attacker doing to force your response.

Without understanding the Bunkai and the Oyo you are just performing physical exercise, not practicing martial art of self defense.

In order for your practice to translate into martial training, or purposeful defensive training you mind must at all times be engaged in engaging the attacker. Every repetition that you execute should be performed with full mental involvement and attention to detail with the attacker in your mind. Understanding distance and timing; 

How far is he/she from you when they initiate their attack? 

What angle are they coming from?

How long is their weapon?

What will be the correct angle for your body to be on to successfully deflect or block the incoming weapon and than counter in an effective manor?

In transitioning from one stance to another, how should you pivot on your feet to allow the smoothest transition possible, without telegraphing your intent to your opponent?

Once these questions are answered and you have a correct picture in your mind for how the techniques should look you are ready to learn about the natural rhythm of the hyung. Keep in mind that the kind of technique that you are executing will determine its speed. Striking and blocking techniques will be fast and powerful. Joint locking techniques will be slow and deliberate. Your breathing will also help you to set the correct pace of the hyung. 

Stage #3:

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!

Remember; practice makes perfect is not correct.

Grandmaster Hwang Kee said; you can practice a reverse punch for 1,000 repetitions. If you execute them incorrectly, at the end of your 1,000 repetitions you will perform them well, incorrectly.

Perfect practice makes perfect

If you are going to take the time to practice, practice at a pace that will allow you to see and feel how you are performing. Use a mirror when ever you can and study yourself closely. Dont just focus on the number of repetitions. Sometimes Less is More. 100 well executed repetitions will serve you better than 1,000 poorly executed repetitions.


When training hyung in a group setting such as in class. If everyone is doing the same hyung together, they should always be moving at the same pace. It is the senior in the group that should set the pace, and that senior should at all times be mindful of who is in the group and make sure that he/she doesnt leave anyone behind.

By keeping everyone on pace with one another you are learning about the hyungs rhythm. If you are making mistakes because you simply cant keep up, there should be an adjustment of the pace by the senior. If you are making mistakes because you simply dont know the hyung, you should be assigned an assistant to help you learn it.

Instructors that see students making mistakes due to lack of knowledge that dont make corrections are either being lazy or they just arent well experienced teachers. We have far too many drill sergeant style teachers out there. Anyone can stand in front of the class and bark out commands. This doesnt make you a good teacher; in fact it makes you a bad teacher.

If your instructor isnt making corrections, you wont be improving any time soon. Performing the same mistakes over and over again only reinforces poor muscle memory. If you arent getting corrections, become the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Ask for help. You will than find it


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## exile (Aug 10, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> When doing kata though it's easy to concentrate on the 'perfect' stances at the expense of the bunkai though. I think good stances are ideal but shouldn't sacrifce the true point of kaya/hyung for good looking performances. *I look for the understanding behind the moves before I look for a perfect stance.*



And that's really the payoff of doing hyungs, eh? 

The incredible richness of the hyungs/kata (since _so_ many KMA forms are literal translations of O/J kata, or minor modifications of them) is probably the single greatest combat resource those of us pursuing the karate-based arts possess. That resource was I think in serious danger for a while&#8212;twenty years ago, I suspect, KMAists would have read Tez' statement in complete bewilderment as to what she was getting at&#8212;but today, most progressive KMAists will read it and nod in heartfelt agreement. If you perform the practice of hyungs from the point of view of rehearsing the street-ready moves that the bunkai for subsequences of those hyungs is pointing you to, rather than worrying about an artificially imposed rhythm, you'll be able to get the real SD befits built into those hyungs. That may mean working slowly at various times and quickly at others, but in every case, the pace of the performance, from the `bunkai-jutsu' point of view, is driven by the pace of the fight, and how the moves you're training work into damaging the attacker in that fight...



Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Hyung training is among the most important parts of our training and should be taught in stages&#8230;
> 
> Stage #1:
> Learn the techniques, one section at a time.
> ...



These are exactly the first two stages of the combat paradigm that Iain Abernethy and other British Combat Association practitioners recognize as the crucial `analytic steps' in deriving the combat-relevant information from the hyungs, kata, hsings or whatever that I was talking about. You have to first understand what the forms are telling you about the _movements_ involved, and then the ball shifts to your courts so far as understanding the actual combat _moves_. 



Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> In order for your practice to translate into martial training, or purposeful defensive training you mind must at all times be engaged in engaging the attacker. Every repetition that you execute should be performed with full mental involvement and attention to detail with the attacker in your mind. Understanding distance and timing;
> 
> How far is he/she from you when they initiate their attack?
> 
> ...



In his book _Five Year, One Kata_, Bill Burgar, an Issinryu 6th dan, makes exactly the same point in connection with Japanese karate kata&#8212;which really struck me when I read it, because my own instructor had been talking for years about this point, which Burgar calls _visualization_ and devotes a whole chapter of his book to. In Burgar's view, every time you practice a kata, you should be practicing it from the point of view of applying the bunkai that the kata contain. If you understand a `down block' to be a rising forearm strike to the attacker's pinned grabbing arm, driving his upper body down, followed by a quick spearing elbow strike to the face and then a hard downward hammerfist (or, more likely, knifehand) to the larynx, then you should practice the kata as though that is exactly what you were doing. I realize that both Burgar and my own teacher were saying that you need to see the technique you practice in the full context of the fight in which you apply that technique (extracted, in some cases, from the disguised form in which karate teaching has presented it from the time of Anko Itosu on).



Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Once these questions are answered and you have a correct picture in your mind for how the techniques should look you are ready to learn about the natural rhythm of the hyung. Keep in mind that the kind of technique that you are executing will determine its speed. Striking and blocking techniques will be fast and powerful. Joint locking techniques will be slow and deliberate. Your breathing will also help you to set the correct pace of the hyung.
> 
> Right&#8212;speed and pace are determined by how the tech will be applied _in combat_. Not tournament-style sparring, but CQ destructive applications, in which you are attacked and must defend yourself by damaging the assailant to the point where he no longer can continue the attack.
> 
> ...



Abernethy and others break this stage down into two substages: (3)a: practice the bunkai extracted from the hyung with a cooperative partner to start with, so that you both learn the basic `feel' of the bunkai move and the ways in which deliberate variations of the attack motivate corresponding variations in the bunkai movements.  (3)b: practice `live', with your training partner becoming progressively both less cooperative and less predictable, so that you have to force compliance by technically correct execution of the technique, and also have to train quick access to your combat toolkit of techs (not too many, or you'll wind up getting decked whilst trying to decide which one to select ). The `alive' training aspect is very important, but also rather unpleasant; still, if you want to get the maximum benefit from hyungs, this is a central part of it.

Master Penfil's comments chime in exactly with what a lot of people in the BCA/progressive bunkai movement in karate advocate, and which I've been lucky to have gotten exposure to from the get-go because of my own instructor's approach.  In terms of the OP, the key idea is that speed, pace, tempo and so on in hyung performance are driven by the fighting applications of the various complete subsequences within the hyungs, and what they're intended to accomplish.


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 11, 2007)

DArnold said:


> NEVER sacrafice technique for speed.
> Speed only comes from practice.
> 
> So....
> Practice crap, perfect crap



I agree 100% with this.  We tend to do patterns/hyung by numbers first, and then in your own time.  I will make everybody wait if needs be, every technique has to be exectued with full intent.  

I am also a big believer in stances in hyung though to be honest.  As GM Kim Bok Man says 'Basics!'.  If you practise enough it all comes together.  People are too eager to learn too much at once, they want to learn one form after another, without fully grasping anything.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 11, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> I agree 100% with this. We tend to do patterns/hyung by numbers first, and then in your own time. I will make everybody wait if needs be, every technique has to be exectued with full intent.





FieldDiscipline said:


> I am also a big believer in stances in hyung though to be honest. As GM Kim Bok Man says 'Basics!'. If you practice enough it all comes together. People are too eager to learn too much at once, they want to learn one form after another, without fully grasping anything.





Stances are, by them selves, important defensive and offensive techniques. They were devised and implemented for many good reasons. I see far too many practitioners forcing their students into deeper and wider stances, and stating that the deeper and wider your stances are, the better you will get.

This is a serious falsehood...

If the application calls for a front stance to be used to place the front foot in a hooking position behind the opponents front foot, while driving your front legs knee or shin into the opponents knee, shin of femur to break his/her balance or to break their leg, deeper is better.

If there isn't any physical contact between the opposing front legs, and the intent of the technique being executed is a block and strike with your hands of any upper body anatomy, a deeper stance may restrict your mobility and cause you to be caught in a compromised position as you try to change positions between techniques.

This brings us right back to; you must understand bunkai and Oyo in order to truly grasp the most benefit from your training.

There is another word that we use in training. That word in "Henka". Henka means "Variation". Based on the size of your opponent, the length of his/her weapon, the speed, and torque as well as the trajectory of the weapon you may have to modify your response. If you are married to the exact bunkai that you have been taught, and are unable to flow with the action you will loose the exchange. Training your Bunkai with Henka allow you to learn how to flow as the attackers actions deviate from what you have trained with in class.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 11, 2007)

exile said:


> And that's really the payoff of doing hyungs, eh?
> 
> The incredible richness of the hyungs/kata (since _so_ many KMA forms are literal translations of O/J kata, or minor modifications of them) is probably the single greatest combat resource those of us pursuing the karate-based arts possess. That resource was I think in serious danger for a whiletwenty years ago, I suspect, KMAists would have read Tez' statement in complete bewilderment as to what she was getting atbut today, most progressive KMAists will read it and nod in heartfelt agreement. If you perform the practice of hyungs from the point of view of rehearsing the street-ready moves that the bunkai for subsequences of those hyungs is pointing you to, rather than worrying about an artificially imposed rhythm, you'll be able to get the real SD befits built into those hyungs. That may mean working slowly at various times and quickly at others, but in every case, the pace of the performance, from the `bunkai-jutsu' point of view, is driven by the pace of the fight, and how the moves you're training work into damaging the attacker in that fight...
> 
> ...


 

I have not seen or read Ian Abernathy's work yet, but I have heard enough about his work to know that we have had similar training over our years of training.

I am going to order his books and DVD's at some point to see for myself what he has put together.

When ever I am at a training session with other practitioners or at an open tournament and see others performing basics or hyung/kata that we use, but see them executing the techniques differently than we do them I get excited. Many will state; oh, they are doing it wrong!!!

I always state that there isn't a wrong way to execute technique if there is viable bunkai to support the movement. The problem comes up when I ask them; what are you doing with this technique, and they can't answer...

When someone executes an high area block with, for example, the executing hand starting from the opposite hip and crossing the body as it raises to completion, with their arm bent to 90 degrees and rotated at to shoulder to the side and they say that they are blocking a hammerfist to the head. The structure simply won't support the defense.

Powerline and center control should always be of importance. If you don't understand these principles, you are going to be in trouble the first time that you attempt to use a given technique against a real attacker. That will be the wrong time to learn that you are not structurally sound.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 12, 2007)

@ master jay: Yes, but we're talking hyung here, not sparring. I agree that there is a limit to how low you can go, feasibly, but practicing low stances is an important part of training. Not only does it increase flexibility and muscle strength, but it pushes students to see how far they can go. You'll never get any better if you don't feel the burn every now and again.

And using chungul jase as a counter-argument to low stances is a bit off, especially considering, as you point out quite often, that chungul jase has very specific uses, not to be used as an all-purpose stance. Considering hugul jase on the other hand, it's beneficial to be able to maintain a lower stance. Since all (or nearly all) your weight is on your back foot, your front foot is more free to kick. The only limiting factor, then, on how fast you can kick is how long it takes to pick up your knee. The more your knee is bent, and the lower you are to the ground already, the shorter this time. Also, a lower center of gravity gives you more stability, making it harder to topple you. Anyone who's seen a fast and powerful but short fighter take down a much larger opponent knows that. 

Again, I'm not suggesting going beyond practical limits here, especially since in a fight your feet are going to be moving constantly anyway. Having the muscle memory for a low stance is still a good idea, though. Without low stances, we'd be what, WTKDF? :-þ

Tang Soo!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 14, 2007)

JT,
I think that you misunderstood what I was discussing. Low stance training is an important part of our training and conditioning. However, in hyung training I see far too many instructors push for lower/deeper, longer and wider stances at all times. This is a clear sign that those instructors have a shallow understanding of the hyung with regard to the practical application point of view.

I have worked with some of the former ITF schools here in Michigan (under Master Richard Collins, Jr.). Their stance training only focused on depth, and when I questioned them (the black belts, 1st  3rd dans) as to what the applications were, and why their stances were so stretched out, they had no answers. All that they could say was that they were always told that this was what Chun Jae Nim C. S. Kim stressed.

There is no argument as to the importance of deep stance training for both conditioning as well as establishing a solid foundation for specific defensive and offensive techniques.  However, due to a lack of understanding of function, practitioners develop improper technique as a result of the additional telegraphing movements that become a part of their movement in order to transition from one step to the next. These movements include upper body forward and backward movement that becomes necessary to get the weight off of the rear foot and draw it forward. The ITF Chungul Jaseh is, from what I have seen here in Michigan, too wide. When your front legs femur is pointing to the side, as opposed to pointing forward at the target, your power will follow the direction that the femur/knee is pointing. This wider stance also causes a side to side swaying movement that causes you to have more telegraphing than, making it easier for your opponent to read your intent.

Many confuse deeper body position with the length and width of the foot placement, or how far apart your feet are. You can still have a strong, deep stance with your feet closer together. A primary concern should always be ease of mobility. If you are stuck in a position that calls for you to include additional body movements to transition from one stance to another, you need to make adjustments. 

As I have stated in the past, the best way to discuss these issues and share this information so that it is best understood, we should find a time to meet and train in person. I will be in Pittsburgh in September. I would love to have you participate in that seminar


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 14, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> JT,
> There is no argument as to the importance of deep stance training for both conditioning as well as establishing a solid foundation for specific defensive and offensive techniques.  However, due to a lack of understanding of function, practitioners develop improper technique as a result of the additional telegraphing movements that become a part of their movement in order to transition from one step to the next. These movements include upper body forward and backward movement that becomes necessary to get the weight off of the rear foot and draw it forward. The ITF Chungul Jaseh is, from what I have seen here in Michigan, too wide. When your front legs femur is pointing to the side, as opposed to pointing forward at the target, your power will follow the direction that the femur/knee is pointing. This wider stance also causes a side to side swaying movement that causes you to have more telegraphing than, making it easier for your opponent to read your intent.
> Many confuse deeper body position with the length and width of the foot placement, or how far apart your feet are. You can still have a strong, deep stance with your feet closer together. A primary concern should always be ease of mobility. If you are stuck in a position that calls for you to include additional body movements to transition from one stance to another, you need to make adjustments.
> 
> As I have stated in the past, the best way to discuss these issues and share this information so that it is best understood, we should find a time to meet and train in person. I will be in Pittsburgh in September. I would love to have you participate in that seminar




I think you misunderstand the ITF chungul jase, then, because you've misdescribed it. Our chungul jase has both feet pointed _forward,_ as you said, because (a) it's easier to pick up your knee from this position and (b) you have greater stability with your back foot able to lock into place to keep you from being knocked backward. I guess that's a bad reflection on the Michigan students, if they all do that kind of front stance. As someone who trains in Pittsburgh and who tests at Master Kim's dojang, I can tell you firsthand that one of the most common corrections made to front stances I hear from my SBN is "Knees pointed forward!" 

As to their stances being too wide (which is why, I guess, their front femurs were pointing to the side), the feet should still be shoulder-width apart. Some people try to go too wide to get lower; that's not what I meant by training in low stances. If you have to break the stance to get lower, you're not doing it right. 

You see the same thing when people try to do a keema jase too wide -- they almost do a split, often with their knees necessarily straight to keep them from collapsing. One of my seniors always called this the "house-riding stance," because you look like you're trying to straddle a triangular roof. Trying to kick, or even move, from this is far more difficult than from a good low keema jase, where your feet are just outside of shoulder-width apart, your knees bent forward, your shins more or less straight vertical, and your weight over your center-line, as opposed to leaning forward (again, to get "lower").


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## Muwubu16858 (Aug 14, 2007)

tell you one thing, my teacher does application to technique in forms too, and honestly, because most of his techniques, he uses body power and waist twist power that Oh Sae Joon used in his Y.M.C.A. style after 1958, their is no place for low stances in the applications. I'm sure low stances are great exercise, but as a warm up or training item. Hyung training should be focused on the application of the movements in sequence, i.e., why do I do this move, and how would it benefit me in a real circumstance? That's all I can add on that.


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## shesulsa (Aug 14, 2007)

You folks have done a wonderful job exploring the elements of hyungs, could you please comment on how speeding through affects these, according to the OP's question?

Thanks.


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## exile (Aug 14, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> You folks have done a wonderful job exploring the elements of hyungs, could you please comment on how speeding through affects these, according to the OP's question?
> 
> Thanks.



Well, there are three sides to this, as far as I can see. One is how you pace yourself in practicing the performance of the form, one is in _demonstrating_ the forms, as in class, and the third is how you pace yourself when you practice the forms as inventories of combat-applicable techniques&#8212;when you practice the bunkai applications `in sequence' according to the hyung's directions. 

&#8226; At home, when you're practicing, your goal is to actually master the moves and develop a smooth transition through the movements that make up the form&#8212;not because smoothness is itself necessarily a virtue, but because a smooth performance is a kind of guarantee that you really have internalized the whole hyung and are no longer having to stop and consciously `dig around' in memory for the next move. For this purpose, I think a slow smooth execution is just as effective as a fast smooth execution&#8212;if you don're really have the hyung `nailed', you're probably not going to be able to perform it smoothly. So here, smoothness rather than speed is primary.

&#8226; In demoing the hyungs in class, I want everyone to stay together, at the same speed. My primary reason for this is that if someone hasn't really nailed the form, s/he may well resort to `shadowing' other people in the class in front of them or next to her/him&#8212;peripheral vision is a wonderful thing!&#8212;and using the others in the class as a crutch. There's a good deal more pressure in performing a hyung, kata or hsing in class than there is doing at home, and I want to be sure that each student knows the form well enough to execute it flawlessly even under that pressure. So I want everyone to be in the same place at the same time in the execution. We usually do each hyung once at a slow pace and once at a kind of normal speed, but everyone has to be together.

&#8226; If you're demoing the form from the point of view of its combat information, its bunkai, then what Master Penfil and others have suggested earlier is the operative constraint: the speed should vary depending on the tech, and here a good deal of individual variation will follow, because people execute techs differently, according to their own individual skeletal structure, height, and so on. Group performance isn't called for here, and therefore `keeping together' isn't an issue. When I work on this aspect of hyungs at home, or at my gym on my own, I'm visualizing an attacker moving in various ways, with each hyung movement that I carry out corresponding to a particular move, which will to some extent take the attacker's prior move into account, and to some extent let me experiment with expanding or compressing the duration of various elements of my defense:  execute a movement slowly in order to rehearse an increase the duration and force I apply to a pin that that part of the hyung seems to me to be encoding.​
So the respective roles of speed when you're learning the hyung, demo-ing the hyung in group performance, and analyzing and experimenting with the bunkai that may be encrypted in the hyung are all somewhat different, depending on the task...


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 15, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> You folks have done a wonderful job exploring the elements of hyungs, could you please comment on how speeding through affects these, according to the OP's question?
> 
> Thanks.


 

Although many of the participants, including me took the conversation much deeper then simply answering Lynns question, we ALL answered her original question and covered it from several vantage points.


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## tsdmgk1336 (Aug 15, 2007)

Hey there master Penfil haven't heard from you in awhile give me a call when you get a chance..


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## Lynne (Aug 16, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Hyung training is among the most important parts of our training and should be taught in stages&#8230;
> 
> Stage #1:
> Learn the techniques, one section at a time.
> ...


Thank you, Master Penfil.

To be honest, we do not learn our Hyung in sections.  Well, I'm only on Gi Chi Hyung Sam Bu.  Perhaps higher/more complicated forms are broken down; I really don't know.  Actually, for Sam Bu, I was told, "Start out with yup makee, do a chun dan kon kyuk - do weng jing (sp) kon kyuks up the middle."  I had learned yup makee and weng jing kon kyuks from the school DVD I bought.  I was glad I'd viewed the DVD before my first class as a yellow belt!  Of course, I would have asked for instruction if I had not viewed the DVD.  That is how I learned the form, from the DVD.  And my daughter gave me some corrections.  The first two forms I learned in one session (the second was easy because I already knew what a high punch and a Sangdon Makee was).

To be fair, we have a large school and around 10 instructors.  Not everyone would have known that I'd just gotten my yellow belt.  Then again, I have this feeling they are expecting a lot out of me because my daughter is taking classes and several levels above me.  I may be wrong.

Regarding Number 2, I would love to know the practical applications of each move.  Generally, we are reminded that Hyung simulates a battle and teaches one how to move, and teaches control and balance.  I'm often reminded to twist from the core, to punch hard, etc.  But we haven't had an instruction section explaining how the yup makee is a powerful block for example.

I am practicing at home, every day.  (What I am noticing is that I'm usually the only yellow belt with white belts; when other yellow belts are in class, they aren't going into low side stances, in fact, they are just shifting their feet, and they aren't aiming either, so they fly through the form.  It takes a little bit of time to aim and to get down lower and stay there.  I've watched the video and know they are doing the form incorrectly.  I am now doing it faster and smoother...and more importantly, correctly.

I can't say why the yellow belts haven't been corrected yet.  I see a lot of sloppiness and it bugs me.  The punches are to the side of the body instead of the middle of the solar plexus.  The punches are at above sternum height, even shoulder height, instead of at solar plexus level.  I don't understand.  It could be that the instructors are correcting people and it's not sinking in?  I was constantly corrected as a white belt, "keep your shoulders square, punch toward the middle, lower your fist to the middle of your solar plexux, snap that fist, block hard, look before you block," etc.  I must have been very lucky!


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## Lynne (Aug 16, 2007)

Thank you, everyone, for taking time to answer my questions and your patience with a newbie. I appreciate the input.  It's been very helpful.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 16, 2007)

Lynne, 

At most schools, you will see that behavior all the way up the ranks.  Two people who are ranked the same may look completely different.  Some will be sloppy and some will be almost perfect.  

As for breaking down the forms, once you get into some of the higher forms, they get very very difficult to learn without breaking them down.  I know a handful of people whose memories are good enough to see a form once or learn it once and they know it.....but most of us need to have it broken down and taught over the course of a few classes.

Whether you are performing your hyung fast or slow (based on style and technique as you mentioned), just be sure that you are keeping a constant tempo.  Every form has a rhythm and a tempo that you must be sure to keep with.  This may differ from school to school and style to style, so be careful!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 16, 2007)

This is why we are all here Lynne,

When we, as seniors take the time to work with juniors it strengthens our own understanding and keeps us sharp.

I have learned far more by teaching than I could have ever learned from my instructors. This is not a slam against my instructors...

As I teach my students; when you have to work with a junior, and you are expected to be the best model that you can be in order to give them the best training possible, that is when you really learn and understand what you are doing. I always tell my students that; as a senior master instructor, I can't teach you anything. I can guide you along the correct path, but you must learn to visualize and emulate all that you see (correctly).

Keep up the great work, and please continue to keep us updated as too how you are progressing.


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## Lynne (Aug 16, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Lynne,
> 
> At most schools, you will see that behavior all the way up the ranks. Two people who are ranked the same may look completely different. Some will be sloppy and some will be almost perfect.
> 
> ...


I know we can't be perfect, but I wonder why some people are in class.  Well, I did hear someone say they were mainly there for the physical exercise.  All I could think of was "if they dropped lower in side punches, they'd get a real nice burn and that great workout they're looking for." 

I can see what you are saying about the higher forms (I've watched the higher belts and some of those forms are long ones, too).  I'm not one of those people who "pick up" that sort of thing quickly.  Next month, Black Belt Club starts up and I hope my brain doesn't blow up learning Chil Sung forms.

Thank you for the tip on tempo.  Tempo is definitely important in our school.  During our testing, we "hiss" to stay together by the way.  Sometimes, there are 30 - 40 people testing at the same time.  Everyone has to stay together during the first three basic forms.


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