# Multiple Attackers



## MJS (Dec 23, 2005)

In pretty much every art, there are techniques geared toward dealing with more than one attacker. Usually, these are preset attacks. Like all techniques, they should be used as a foundation to build off of, giving you the necessary tools to formulate a response according to what you're facing.

What other mult. attacker drills do you include into your own training, in addition to the preset techniques, to better yourself in this area?

For me, its usually set up like a sparring type situation, however, not limiting to just strikes, but instead being able to grab, manipulating one attacker as a shield to momentarily buy yourself some time in between moves.

Mike


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## still learning (Dec 23, 2005)

Hello,  In the real world of fighting......Run, or push them off and run, or hit and run......Fast and faster!

Don't believe any martial arts is very effective against the real world.  Multliple attackers can and will use everything around them for weapons and hit you when you are not looking or prepare.

No one trains in the adrendline response, and when caught off guard and  not prepare for an attack? (getting into a fight) when you don't want too?

The mind will be thinking of many things at once......I may get blasted here for what I say on this about multiple attachers.

When it happens to you and others in most cases........you will then understand "WHY" it is better to escape!  when possible?

If you were a member of the multiple attackers you will see all the advantages.  

Run....very fast....and live a longer life........just my thoughts...Aloha


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## jdinca (Dec 23, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, In the real world of fighting......Run, or push them off and run, or hit and run......Fast and faster!
> 
> Don't believe any martial arts is very effective against the real world. Multliple attackers can and will use everything around them for weapons and hit you when you are not looking or prepare.
> 
> ...


 
Running is most definitely the best course of action but what if you can't?


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## Knarfan (Dec 23, 2005)

I kind of understand your point about escaping being your best option but, I think that there is alot of MA training that works in the real world. I myself have faced multiple opponants more then once & have been pretty successfull. Alot of it depends on how well the attackers work toghether. We practice for multiple opponant attacks often in sayoc kali & we also practice being the multiple attackers & both types of training are eye opening & are helpfull. One thing that has helped me is that I try & carry a small impact weapon that can do alot of damage with one shot, it has a way of taking a cowards heart  . Another thing that comes into play is that alot of people who train in MA have morals & they don't start trouble & make a habbit of cheap shoting people, like a typical street thug, so it's not always their MA training that fails them it may be more the element of suprise. All things equal, I'll put my money on somone that trains but, unfortunatly the odds aran't always in your favor on the street.


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## still learning (Dec 23, 2005)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Running is most definitely the best course of action but what if you can't?


 

Ever corner a cat?   Become one!  ....the outcome may not be in your corner.....hopefully survive the beatings.

Have a will and medical plan........................Aloha


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## Danny T (Dec 23, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> For me, its usually set up like a sparring type situation, however, not limiting to just strikes, but instead being able to grab, manipulating one attacker as a shield to momentarily buy yourself some time in between moves.
> 
> Mike


 My number one response to the question on what is the best way to handle multiple opponents if there is no escape; One at a time.

Mike, something we do is start light sparring with a good guy vs bad guy. I will select another to attack on my signal. As the second bad guy attacks the first bad guy breaks off his attack. Then a 3rd attacker attacks, and so on. As the good guy gets better the attacks get harder with the first attacker staying in longer before breaking off. This continues and as the good guy gets better and better the attacks become more and more forceful with the bad guy staying in while the 2nd and then 3rd attackers also are attacking. 

Something we also do to simulate getting rocked and having an equilibrium loss is the good guy spins rapidly in a very tight circle 10-15 times and then gets attacked. To simulate the loss of peripheral vision we use goggles with the small round lens like welders goggles. This creates the same affect of tunnel vision when adrenaline hits. Makes one really have to move and survey the whole area.

Danny


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## mantis (Dec 23, 2005)

i would actually assume that starters are only required to focus on one imaginary opponent
i would also imagine that fighting with multiple attackers is taught to be treated as one different separate attack at a time (with exceptions. sure!)


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## jdinca (Dec 23, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Ever corner a cat? Become one! ....the outcome may not be in your corner.....hopefully survive the beatings.
> 
> Have a will and medical plan........................Aloha


 
I think the cat would be much more effective if it had training against multiple dogs.  

Ditto on the will and medical plan.


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## MJS (Dec 24, 2005)

Danny T said:
			
		

> My number one response to the question on what is the best way to handle multiple opponents if there is no escape; One at a time.
> 
> Mike, something we do is start light sparring with a good guy vs bad guy. I will select another to attack on my signal. As the second bad guy attacks the first bad guy breaks off his attack. Then a 3rd attacker attacks, and so on. As the good guy gets better the attacks get harder with the first attacker staying in longer before breaking off. This continues and as the good guy gets better and better the attacks become more and more forceful with the bad guy staying in while the 2nd and then 3rd attackers also are attacking.




Great drill!!  Doing it as you mention, I'd also think that this will build some great endurance.  Having the attackers stay in longer also prevents the defender from having a break inbetween.




> Something we also do to simulate getting rocked and having an equilibrium loss is the good guy spins rapidly in a very tight circle 10-15 times and then gets attacked. To simulate the loss of peripheral vision we use goggles with the small round lens like welders goggles. This creates the same affect of tunnel vision when adrenaline hits. Makes one really have to move and survey the whole area.





> Danny


 
Nice!!  This certainly throws alot of reality into the mix!!

Thanks again,

Mike


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## MJS (Dec 24, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, In the real world of fighting......Run, or push them off and run, or hit and run......Fast and faster!
> 
> Don't believe any martial arts is very effective against the real world. Multliple attackers can and will use everything around them for weapons and hit you when you are not looking or prepare.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with the running.  Getting out of the situation ASAP is important.  However,as jdinca stated, running is fine if you can.  Keep in mind though that there may be a chance that they can run after you or your location at the time, ie: a bar, may not provide that immediae escape.

Mike


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## still learning (Dec 24, 2005)

Hello, Try this...one person acts as if does not know what is going on...than three of you jump him (any kind of strikes,graps,tackles) all at once see if you can defend against this?....attacker behave in a aggressive manor.....bad words and all...Attack someone like you would on the street in a gang! None stop action..attacker pick-up objects around you and use them

Make each attack a little different and than go back and see the results most of the time. 

Make it real (do not hurt you training partner)......Have fun with this..but make it real.................Aloha

Do this to someone walking in the Dojo?


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## Ric Flair (Dec 24, 2005)

Or when one of your fellow students is on the toilet!!!  Great time and place to practice an ambush on someone either multi attack or single!!!

Element of surprise PLUS the person on the toilet might have to improvise with two feet not really being mobile lol!!!


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 24, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Ever corner a cat? Become one! ....the outcome may not be in your corner.....hopefully survive the beatings.
> 
> Have a will and medical plan........................Aloha


 A better example is watching a wolverine deal with a pack of wolves.

The way to deal with two or more attackers is mobility and angulation.  Always try and keep the fight between you and just one of the bad guys, keeping his body between you and his comrades. 

I was in an aiki-jujitsu class one time, and we were practicing moving around and fighting off three attackers.  The instructor was pretty amused when I 'took a hostage'.  I basically got tired, and grabbed one of the attackers in a rear naked choke, and told everyone to back off, using him as a human shield.  The instructor told me that wasn't the point of exercise...but it was pretty creative.

At any rate, never understimate the power of 'taking a hostage'.  Grab one of the bad guys, put him a rear naked choke, and tell everyone else to back or 'or you're going to go crazy and kill your hostage'.  It works, guys, i'm telling you.  Especially if you grab the leader.  Just make sure to keep the guy with you, whether he's concious or not.  This works when knocked to the ground, too, just grab one of the bad guys and drag him to the ground with you, preferably in a choke.  Use him to protect you from kicks.  

If nothing else, it works to buy time.


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## mantis (Dec 24, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> A better example is watching a wolverine deal with a pack of wolves.


man, how come ur online?
nothing for xmas?


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 25, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> man, how come ur online?
> nothing for xmas?


 Actually, i'm working on christmas, and there's nothing to do, as the boss doesn't want us driving around in the snow storm unless there's somewhere to go.  So I guess MT is stuck with me tonight.  :lol:


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## MJS (Dec 26, 2005)

Looks like we've had some excellent drills posted here.  Anyone else have any drills that they use in their class to build on this type of attack?

Mike


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## rutherford (Dec 26, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> In pretty much every art, there are techniques geared toward dealing with more than one attacker. Usually, these are preset attacks. Like all techniques, they should be used as a foundation to build off of, giving you the necessary tools to formulate a response according to what you're facing.


Huh.  Sometimes I wonder what it is other people do.  I've never seen a tech for multiple attackers, although I've had them delt into the mix quite often.  What do the folks who have these in their system think of them?

If I had my way - and we had unlimited training time and partners, of course - we'd incorporate multiple attackers into every training drill.  Fine, you're working that lock and BAM! here comes Spiderman down the building to stop you, What Are You Going to DO??

When you're grappling somebody, using their body as a sheild can be even more important that in *sgtmac_46*'s example.  Knowing how to grab a limb and force your opponent to get between you and a 2nd attacker can buy you the few seconds you need to Live.

Learning how to turn your hip over to kick in multiple directions is probably less useful, but might be more fun - depending on your idea of fun.  

I'd really like to try some of Systema's mass attacks and crowd movement drills.


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## jdinca (Dec 26, 2005)

We have a number of multiple attacker techniques. The last 10 of 2nd degree brown belt and all 1st degree brown belt techniques involve 2-4 attackers. At the lower ranks, we do have a few techniques that involve 2 attackers. We also have several drills involving multiple attackers, that are usually done at a slower speed to prevent possible injuries. They are designed for positioning, decision making and setting up for the next strike.


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## still learning (Dec 26, 2005)

Hello, Want to still know what works.....World War Two American Japanese soldiers had a saying when attacking the enemy...: "GO for BROKE"  meaning go all out-fight like  there is no tomorrow.

When you  set up  mulitple attackers on a single person..than you will learn what works.......Real fighting is alway unpredictable,weapons can be use,bats,knives,guns,chairs,biting,hairing pulling,tackling while someone is on a blind side or you on a blind side attacking.  Can all attact at once or in twos and the blinds side also....no rules for the multiple attacker (real world)

Total results of the single attacker and the mulitple attacter and study who won and the why?

Keep in the mind the attackers could be muggers,drunks,on dope,crazy gangsters.

Still think your style can win?  maybe but if you lose?  Will you still be alive and in good health?

Learn the results...practice those defense.......and remember the number one rule in fighting and martial arts.......AWARENESS ...teaches avoidense.....live to see another  peaceful day....Aloha


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## Connovar (Dec 26, 2005)

Running is always good if you are alone and faster than them.Otherwise this is where weapons come into play. It can include firearms (often just the brandishing is enough). It can include knives for places where guns are not allowed (Many fighting folders are legal just check your local laws). Non lethal choices include options such as "the stinger" which quite effective if used with appropriate striking technique.

Multifighting calls for cheating. Being attacked by multiples itself is an unfair attack and justifies a response in kind.


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## Knarfan (Dec 26, 2005)

We do alot of the drills that have been mentioned already, spinning around 15-20 or 30 times until you can't keep your balance then either being attacked or performing a drill . We also do stuff like having a couple of people wacking you with action flex sticks while your either sparring one on one or performing drills, this really helps your concentration. We fight while going up & down stairs (with spoters) somtimes one on one , somtimes multiple attackers, with or without weapons  by one or all parties. We do multiple attacks were it's one on one in a dark hallway (not much room to move) then we send in multiple attackers. WE also do stuff like if you & another person are attacked & trapped in your vehicle by multiple assailants what would you do , whats the best course of action? Most times say the driver is being attacked the passenger usually tries to reach over the driver to fight off the attack but, you soon realize that you are trapping your friend , your better off pulling them away from the attack , you may have to exit the car , (they may have kicks or busted your windows in) so what is the best course of action & the best way to exit the vehicle that you are trapped in . We also have alot of maylay battles (usually with action flex sticks) this has helped me alot , you really become aware of your complete surroundings not just whats in front of you & these maylays usually take place on unsteady ground , in the woods or on some type of uneven surface .


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## rutherford (Dec 26, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Multifighting calls for cheating. Being attacked by multiples itself is an unfair attack and justifies a response in kind.



Cheating?

All's fair when it's life that's on the line.


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## SAVAGE (Dec 26, 2005)

Well firstly...BULA......hows everyone doing?

Multiples are never good.....what you train is controlled....what happens in the street is not....run.....do not fight to the end...fight till yiou see an opening and make like a tree and leaf...........pictures of the lone martial artist standing victorious over the fallen bodies of *insert number here* only happen in the movies. Are we prepared...we are more so than others....but victory is never a given......life is alo not guaranteed...dont take chances.
While fighting for that gap...or chance to escape... just kepp moving and keep your assailants in a straight line in front of you...so that they are in each others way...make your shots count...and most of all...wear your lucky underwear...you are going to need alot more luck than most of us have the right to ask for!


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## jdinca (Dec 26, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Running is always good if you are alone and faster than them.Otherwise this is where weapons come into play. It can include firearms (often just the brandishing is enough). It can include knives for places where guns are not allowed (Many fighting folders are legal just check your local laws). Non lethal choices include options such as "the stinger" which quite effective if used with appropriate striking technique.
> 
> Multifighting calls for cheating. Being attacked by multiples itself is an unfair attack and justifies a response in kind.



The only place "cheating" comes into play is in the ring. If your life is in danger from one, or multiple attackers, there's no such thing as a fair fight.


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## Danny T (Dec 26, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Multifighting calls for cheating. Being attacked by multiples itself is an unfair attack and justifies a response in kind.


 
Cheating!!. In a fight, Cheating?!!! 

You don't understand, if I am in a fight it is bad and there is only *1* Rule: 
*I WIN!!* 

There is no such thing as Cheating!!!

Danny Terrell


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## Knarfan (Dec 26, 2005)

One of the coolest things that I have heard somone say about cheating in a fight was Hock Hockhiem in a Black Belt Mag. article , he said "be the first to cheat, the last to cheat & don't forget to cheat in the middle" . Kinda says it all . In a street fight I always make sure that I cheat first  .


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## jdinca (Dec 26, 2005)

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> One of the coolest things that I have heard somone say about cheating in a fight was Hock Hockhiem in a Black Belt Mag. article , he said "be the first to cheat, the last to cheat & don't forget to cheat in the middle" . Kinda says it all . In a street fight I always make sure that I cheat first  .



Great quote! :lol2:


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2005)

"If I'm not cheating, I don't feel like I'm really trying." -a training partner


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## still learning (Dec 26, 2005)

Hello, That topic on cheating is great, beginning,end and the middle...gotta remember that and share it with the students.

For those who mention run when possible....I agree totally.  

remember if you practice real fighting style...you will learn the benfits of actual fighting multiple attackers ,how to fight back and escape. Fast and furious with no rules of attacks on the single person. If you practice slow-you will miss the point of it.

If you were in the group of multiple attackers what and how would you attack that one person?  Anything goes here....chairs,throwing rocks,bottles,(cheating)..................Aloha


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## MJS (Dec 26, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Huh. Sometimes I wonder what it is other people do. I've never seen a tech for multiple attackers, although I've had them delt into the mix quite often. What do the folks who have these in their system think of them?


 
There are quite a few of these in Kenpo.  Like all techniques, IMO, they give the student a foundation to build off of.  




> When you're grappling somebody, using their body as a sheild can be even more important that in *sgtmac_46*'s example. Knowing how to grab a limb and force your opponent to get between you and a 2nd attacker can buy you the few seconds you need to Live.


 
I agree.  Being able to grab someone and use them as a shield, while at the same time, inflicting some damage may not only buy you some time, but it also may be a deterant to the others.

Mike


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## Jerry (Dec 27, 2005)

> What other mult. attacker drills do you include into your own training, in addition to the preset techniques, to better yourself in this area?


 Preset techniques? I dont think I have any. We play a game where several people try to trap one in an area... on occasion we even do it at full speed with a group trying to take a single opponent down while he tries to run/fight to an exit.

Multiple-attacker sparring is the norm... and there are a good number of games which work skills that are more useful when dealing with multiple opponents than they are with single opponents; but I can't think of any preset techniques.


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## Bigshadow (Dec 27, 2005)

I have some thoughts to throw out here...  What follows is my opinion

#1 Dealing with multiple attackers is the same as dealing with multiple single attackers and I think that is how it should be looked at. In my opinion there are no (single attacker techniques) versus (multiple attacker techniques), essentially there are just techniques. Well the caveat is with multiple attackers you must maintain awareness of your surroundings so that you can move to a safe spot.

#2 When dealing with multiple attackers use one or more as shields, don't throw away an attacker. When we train, we often train so that we do not throw the attacker away, but keep them close because even if you think you have only one attacker on the street, there could be one or more waiting in the crowd. Never assume there is only one.

#3 Being aware of your surroundings requires TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING. One must have some comfort level with their movement and techniques, enough so that their mind is free to be aware of what is around them, another words their movement should flow from them. If a person is focused on trying to do a technique correctly or trying to make sure they move properly, they will not have the necessary awareness of their surroundings. So normal training is very important as with that comes the freedom of mind that allows a person to be fully aware of their surroundings during a fight and their movement and "techniques" will flow from them without much conscious thought.

I think it is good to sometimes have multiple attacker drills but not too soon in someone's training and not too often.  Also, I think multiple attacker drills will give the instructor an idea of where someone really is in their training.

That is my thoughts for the morning!


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## Knarfan (Dec 27, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> "If I'm not cheating, I don't feel like I'm really trying." -a training partner


 
I'll have to use this quote next time I cheap shot somone when I'm sparring  .


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## still learning (Dec 27, 2005)

Hello, We can only prepare for the worst and hope for the best outcome..no two street fights/multiple attackers will be the same. The size,shape,numbers3,4,or more people involved.  When the time ever come we must react....what we choose to do will affect the outcome?

Hopefully our training will makes us do the right stuffs...hit? fight back? run? ................to stay alive..........many good comments..to think about....Aloha


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## Jerry (Dec 28, 2005)

> #2 When dealing with multiple attackers use one or more as shields, don't throw away an attacker. When we train, we often train so that we do not throw the attacker away, but keep them close because even if you think you have only one attacker on the street, there could be one or more waiting in the crowd. Never assume there is only one.


 I don't know about "throw away", but there are definately times to let one go. You don't want to be tryign to wrestle down a guy trying to get away while another is tryign to pummel you.... drop the less aggressive one in favor of the more aggressive one.


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## Bigshadow (Dec 28, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> I don't know about "throw away", but there are definately times to let one go. You don't want to be tryign to wrestle down a guy trying to get away while another is tryign to pummel you.... drop the less aggressive one in favor of the more aggressive one.



I would disagree. First of all, if you are trying to wrestle down a person, it would seem you don't have control of that person and/or you are expecting to go for a competition style "tap out" or "submission". If you tie yourself up with someone in a "real" fight like that, you are most likely going to take some damage and possibly lose your life. There are many ways to control a person without "wrestling them down". If you truly have control of the person, then why would you not put the one you are about to throw away betwixt you and the agressive attacker and let him/her be a shield for you? At least that way the agressive person can attack (punch, stab, slice, or whatever) the shield and not you. PLUS, if you throw the attacker away, now you will most likely have to deal with that person again after you throw away the "more agressive" attacker. When your life is on the line, you really don't want to have to keep starting over.

EDIT:  Not to sound gruesome, but even a dead attacker can be used as a shield.


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## Knarfan (Dec 28, 2005)

A dead or unconsious attacker is always the best shield , unless he's to heavy for you to hold up  . Thats why I work EXTRA EXTRA hard at avoiding confrontation & I am very good at it .


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## still learning (Dec 29, 2005)

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> A dead or unconsious attacker is always the best shield , unless he's to heavy for you to hold up  . Thats why I work EXTRA EXTRA hard at avoiding confrontation & I am very good at it .


 
This is one of the best answers yet! I work EXTRA EXTRA hard at avoiding confrontations. If many of us do this? There will be no need to go physcial, and we all can be home on time (everytime).

To get kill, hurt,sue or jail is it worth it? Best to play the coward than let our EGO's/pride get in the way. You will enjoy tomorrow more..

But if jump by multiple attackers.....first goal is to escape when and if possible....hit hard..look for openings to run...but don't plan on staying to the end.......the adrenline stress,not wanting to fight,the why's...all this going on in your mine....especially when you did not want this fight to happen...leaves you very unprepare....the best thing is get out of there...ASAP....do you agree? ...............I would...

How? Anyway you can......I see (eyes) and breath (throat)....and raise their chins...up high...............Aloha


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 29, 2005)

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> A dead or unconsious attacker is always the best shield , unless he's to heavy for you to hold up  . Thats why I work EXTRA EXTRA hard at avoiding confrontation & I am very good at it .



I agree. 

Last weekend out with some younger friends, and lots of people back in town for the holidays, and people drinking. A couple of guys kepts bumping and pushing when there was plenty of room, as it was tables and chairs not that crowded.

I moved. I moved again. I asked them if I had upset them, or something. They said no. 

Later, I just smiled at them and said, "Careful or one of these times you are going to swing your drink around and hit me in the head and knock me out and I might accidentially roll over on the ground and break your ankle."  

One just walked away the other just started to laugh and said that is funny  "Dude" and I do not want to break anything let alone an ankle. 

Not the best way, but to most young males, who hear that I agree they will knock me out, they leave or join.


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## Jonathan Randall (Dec 29, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> Last weekend out with some younger friends, and lots of people back in town for the holidays, and people drinking. A couple of guys kepts bumping and pushing when there was plenty of room, as it was tables and chairs not that crowded.
> 
> ...


 
Now that's good Verbal Judo! - an essential skill in avoiding multiple attacker scenarios.


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## Knarfan (Dec 29, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> Last weekend out with some younger friends, and lots of people back in town for the holidays, and people drinking. A couple of guys kepts bumping and pushing when there was plenty of room, as it was tables and chairs not that crowded.
> 
> ...


 
Rich thats pretty good  . One of the things that I'v learned over the years is you have to use a certain tact when avoiding confrontations. You have to be able to read the person & let them know in a nice way that you don't want any trouble but, somtimes you can't be overly nice if you know what I mean, if they think your a pussover or scared your in trouble, but if you can be forcefull without embarrassing them in front of their friends they usually get the point. Speaking for myself, I will always walk away from any confrontation, especially multiple attacks. Why act stupid? Besides somone could accidently role over on the ground & break my ankle  .


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## Bigshadow (Dec 29, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Later, I just smiled at them and said, "Careful or one of these times you are going to swing your drink around and hit me in the head and knock me out and I might accidentially roll over on the ground and break your ankle."



Good one!


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## Jerry (Jan 2, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I would disagree. First of all, if you are trying to wrestle down a person, it would seem you don't have control of that person


 Exactly my point. When someone else get's closer, better to let go of the person you don't have control of and deal with the closer person.

Of course, control is not generally an "all or nothing" propisitiojn either. You need to decide when the person you are "holding on to" is an asset; and when he's a liability.



> If you tie yourself up with someone in a "real" fight like that, you are most likely going to take some damage and possibly lose your life.


 Tie up like what?



> If you truly have control of the person, then why would you not put the one you are about to throw away betwixt you and the agressive attacker and let him/her be a shield for you?


 You generally try. But as I said, there are times when you would let go. Just because you want "true control" and just because you want to successfully stop someone else with him doesn't mean you get either.




> At least that way the agressive person can attack (punch, stab, slice, or whatever) the shield and not you.


 Or can hit you with the guy you are holding; or the guy you thought you had complete control of can drop and leave you stuck or tryign to drag 200lbs of dead weight while tryign to deal with someone stabbing at you.



> PLUS, if you throw the attacker away, now you will most likely have to deal with that person again after you throw away the "more agressive" attacker.


 This language is antithetical to what I said ("I don't know about "throw away", but there are definately times to let one go."). Did you actually read my post?



> When your life is on the line, you really don't want to have to keep starting over.


 Nor do you want to try to fit a square peg in a round hole.



> EDIT: Not to sound gruesome, but even a dead attacker can be used as a shield.


 Really? I have trouble moving 240lbs of dead weight in front of an attacker faster than he can move. Add that he can put his weight no my shield I don't find it viable to support 400+lbs of person while trying to fight.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 3, 2006)

Jerry said:
			
		

> Did you actually read my post?



Yes, I did.


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