# Training sword and bo?



## kip42 (Sep 15, 2010)

I want a training sword and a real wooden bo. Should I go with a wooden sword or metal one? Who makes the best wooden bo's and swords.

Hickory, pine, oak, or ash wood and why? Which is strongest?


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 15, 2010)

Ask your sensei.

All students begin with wooden swords (bokken). Iaito are sometimes used in practice, but only by people who know what they are doing and can be trusted not to poke hole in the tatami or other people.

Strongest? Hickory or oak.
However, that really doesn't matter for your initial practice. I have no shame in admitting that my current bo and hanbo are made from birch or something like that. I simply bought a curtain rail that was 9 feet and had the correct thickness, and cut it to get a 6 feet and 3 feet part. Total price 9$.

Honestly, your material is immaterial until you know how to use it. Worry about the rest later. Additionally, while learning you will drop it often, hit the ground, and do other things that will scrape, chafe and dent it. Best not to do that with expensive gear.


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## Indagator (Sep 15, 2010)

A bokken can be made, if you have some good tools and are somewhat carpentry-minded. There was a simple guide on one of those e-how (or similar) websites, I forget which but it shouldn't be hard to find.
The right specs are easy to find, and a training weapon has something special to it when it is handmade by it's owner.
As Bruno says, improvisation is often a good thing. I am actually going to be making a new manriki soon, simply out of a length of black steel chain from the hardware store (the black prevents the metallic shine at night) and some heavy fishing sinkers.
I like the curtain rail idea for the bo, very innovative.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 16, 2010)

kip42 said:


> I want a training sword and a real wooden bo. Should I go with a wooden sword or metal one? Who makes the best wooden bo's and swords.
> 
> Hickory, pine, oak, or ash wood and why? Which is strongest?


 
Get an instructor. Ask them. Who says you are even going to be doing any Bo for the first year (or two....or three....) anyway? When students ask me what they "need", I recommend a Bokken, a Hanbo, and a training Knife, as these are the most common we use. Bo is more of a rarity for us.

But really, stop putting the horse before the cart, all of this will come in time. For now, start training, and trust your instructor and what they say you should get. They'll know what's best for you better than anyone here.


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## Indagator (Sep 16, 2010)

Good point there from Chris.

Asking your teacher will be the best way forwards, as he will be able to help you prioritise what you will need.

Depending on who teaches you, this may vary. For example, within my first month of training I had exposure to bo, hanbo, bokken, knife work, and manriki so some teachers will lay it on thick.

Staples would definitely be the hanbo, the bokken and the knife.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 12, 2010)

It also depends on what you like. i have a roswood jo and it is nice to use. not to heavy and not to light. I really like the look and feel of the white wood i dont know what its called. we have some kukishin ryu boken at my school and i love size and feel. very nicely balanced i think. alows for power and speed but can get hard to use in a tight spot. very battlefield type of weapon.


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 5, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> It also depends on what you like. i have a roswood jo and it is nice to use. not to heavy and not to light. I really like the look and feel of the white wood i dont know what its called. we have some kukishin ryu boken at my school and i love size and feel. very nicely balanced i think. alows for power and speed but can get hard to use in a tight spot. very battlefield type of weapon.



I take it you mean White Oak?


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 6, 2010)

yes white oak or white birch. it makes a nice high tone if you hit it. I want to get some bokens made from this wood one day.


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 6, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> yes white oak or white birch. it makes a nice high tone if you hit it. I want to get some bokens made from this wood one day.



Well a standard Red Oak bokken will set you back about $33-$35 if you go to any half decent martial arts supply shop (in Melbourne), a White Oak one from the same place will be about $40. If you get yours from Japan, they can cost around $120 each but obviously the quality will be higher. Not all Oak is the same, just because it's Oak. Depends on the grain, the age of the timber, the cut, the workmanship etc but when you're starting off, why do you want to waste your money? Spend a couple of years training with your Red Oak weapons, learn how to use them and then upgrade. I've just swapped mine over to white oak - but out of necessity rather than simply wanting a nicer looking bokken. 

With regards to what Bruno was saying about using the curtain rail cut into 2 sections for a Bo and a Hanbo, we were always told that's fine for solo drills at home etc but keep in mind when sparring with any real contact, cheaper timber isn't going to last very long against Oak. If you're planning on getting some impact up with the weapons, I'd personally say go with a Red Oak, it's hard enough that it won't break easily and cheap enough that it won't break your budget/you don't mind if it dints or wears while you learn how to use it.


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## Ken Morgan (Nov 6, 2010)

My main training weapons are all hickory, jo and bokken. I've had the same set for almost 12 years now, and they're still in good working order. I'm not and have never been a big fan of oak.

Also I would strongly disagree with one of the quotes above. Buying from Japan does not mean it will be better quality. Many of the Japanese companies are buying their stock from China and other places these days, buying from Japan may simply mean, a higher mark up price.

Shop around. This is my sensei's site, high end stuff at fair prices. http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

Over at EJMAS he talks about making weapons in a few articles. This one for example:
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor_1100.htm Do a search for other articles.

Read, talk to others and try out weapons from different suppliers if you can, then decide where you want to spend your money. Good luck.


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## Indagator (Nov 7, 2010)

I bought a red oak bokken for $US20.00, and for a bo $11.00 got me a 1.8 meter length of 30 mil dowelling (only pinus radiata but treated with linseed oil handles a bit of contatc and if it breaks, another one is only 11 bucks away) which is only 2 centimeters short of the actual measurements of "roku shaku" and the best yet, I lucked out as my vacuum cleaner pipe is exactly the right dimensions for a hanbo. Practice manrikis are easily made out of rope, with knotted ends, street use manrikis are easily made from a chain with two padlocks (if questioned, easily explained as bicylce chain and locks - use one key lock and one combination, thus if asked explain that if one is broken the second may not be &c.)
Besides which, in real life, bo training could translate to a pool cue or a piece of piping or anyting really. Whatevers around...
Best bo kata training I've done has been with the bar from a bar-bell weight lifting set, run through everyting slowly and it'll sort you out...
can't do randori with it though...


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 7, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> With regards to what Bruno was saying about using the curtain rail cut into 2 sections for a Bo and a Hanbo, we were always told that's fine for solo drills at home etc but keep in mind when sparring with any real contact, cheaper timber isn't going to last very long against Oak. If you're planning on getting some impact up with the weapons, I'd personally say go with a Red Oak, it's hard enough that it won't break easily and cheap enough that it won't break your budget/you don't mind if it dints or wears while you learn how to use it.



True. the curtain rail approach is fine for beginners because then they don't need to spend $$$, and they are not going to be making hard contact anyway. Tbh, I don't know if anyone will be doing hard sparring with bo and hanbo. The chances of breaking things (fingers, wrists, ribs, heads) is just too great. But there can be hard contact during partner drill and kata of course.


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 7, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> True. the curtain rail approach is fine for beginners because then they don't need to spend $$$, and they are not going to be making hard contact anyway. Tbh, I don't know if anyone will be doing hard sparring with bo and hanbo. The chances of breaking things (fingers, wrists, ribs, heads) is just too great. But there can be hard contact during partner drill and kata of course.



Yeah I can only speak with regards to our own school of course but when doing partner kata/drills we try to get impact happening to learn how to utilize our body weight and how to perform each strike (against the opponent's weapon - never the person!!) Against the person it's always with control and the main thing is getting the feeling and targetting but with things like disarming strikes, we like to try actually disarm by hitting their sword for example with the same feeling as hitting their fingers.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 7, 2010)

The impact is between weapons, as Supra mentioned. We also, from time to time, employ striking directly into a bokken or some other held as a target to develop certain striking aspects, including getting you used to the impact as it's felt through your hands. Other methods recommended for home training include getting a tyre and hitting it with various items for similar reasons (really helps ensure your grip is correct!).

Ken, unfortunately I haven't seen anything in Australia for over a decade (in terms of bokken) that are even close to my requirements, they all seem to be rather cheap Taiwanese ones, bad balance, over-sized tsuka, etc, so I tend to get most of my gear from Japan, and that's what I source for my students when I can. I have, however, had the pleasure of training with some items from Kim, and can say that the quality is fantastic (although I'm not too sure about the Niten bokken, but that's just me). 

For woods, Japanese Oak is one of the most traditional materials, due to it's tight grain and ability to absorb impact without splitting. Hickory has incredibly similar properties, a great choice as well.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 7, 2010)

i liked the idea for the bar-bell weight lifting set. I was thinking of that but it is too heavy. it would be a good work out. you would get good wrist strength training like that.

the padlock and chain would be called kasari fundo not manriki. manriki has long handles that extend through the hand so you can strike with the end.
i have tried many types of padlocks but ended up buying some hexegon bar stock for weights. i like that you have the but ends. 2m chain is very fast but weak 3m is best.

I dont really place to much importance on weaponry. i like taijutsu too much so i like to focus more on that. I do like the manrikigusari and bo shuriken alot though. empty hand is the best. I probley will have to buy all the training gear at some stage for classes but for the moment I love to travel light. Im a firm believer in traveling light. I even dont like wearing a backpack coz its something peaple can grab on to when you try to escape. it makes evasive manoeuvres hard when you have to carry all your gear with you.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 7, 2010)

Actually, there is no defined difference between "Kusari Fundo", "Fundo", "Manriki", "Manriki Gusari", and any other variant other than the definitions as supplied by the particular Ryu teaching them. It has nothing to do with the types of weights, length of chain, or even the number of weights or lengths of the chain that make up the weapon.

I'm going to ask as well, though, as I haven't taken you through any Kusari work, or any Shuriken, Bo or otherwise, what are you basing your experiences of them on?


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 7, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn, I HAVE to ask... where on earth are you going that you need to employ "evasive manoeuvres"????


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 7, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> DuskB4Dawn, I HAVE to ask... where on earth are you going that you need to employ "evasive manoeuvres"????



The Aussie jungle?

Those drop bears are scary.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 7, 2010)

lol I live in footscray. this a really bad area. its even worse at night and that around the time I get home from training. usually they attack you in thier gangs so evasive manoeuvres like running away is useful. you always got to be on you gaurd in this kind of place. I see bad things happen everyday.


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 7, 2010)

Funny about that, I went to uni in Footscray and most of my classes ended after 7pm, caught the train everyday, walked through the dark scary streets to uni and back from the station and never had any trouble in close to 3 years.... 

Bruno, the trick with the drop bears is to hold a pointy stick over your head and have the tip covered in vegemite. The vegemite acts as a bait and the sharp pointy stick takes care of the rest as they try to drop down to eat your brain. Old bush trick. It really works!


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## Burnse (Nov 7, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Funny about that, I went to uni in Footscray and most of my classes ended after 7pm, caught the train everyday, walked through the dark scary streets to uni and back from the station and never had any trouble in close to 3 years....
> 
> Bruno, the trick with the drop bears is to hold a pointy stick over your head and have the tip covered in vegemite. The vegemite acts as a bait and the sharp pointy stick takes care of the rest as they try to drop down to eat your brain. Old bush trick. It really works!



That's because people were running from you instead. Stand in the darker parts of streets and you're invisible until you smile.

Mind you, I haven't had any trouble for about the last two years, but I stick to well-lit crowded areas and usually for short periods of time.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 7, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Funny about that, I went to uni in Footscray and most of my classes ended after 7pm, caught the train everyday, walked through the dark scary streets to uni and back from the station and never had any trouble in close to 3 years....
> 
> Bruno, the trick with the drop bears is to hold a pointy stick over your head and have the tip covered in vegemite. The vegemite acts as a bait and the sharp pointy stick takes care of the rest as they try to drop down to eat your brain. Old bush trick. It really works!



A friend of mine lives down under (Melbourne) he has a 6 foot pythin living in his roof. He says it keeps away other animals and it doesn't bother them so he leaves it alone. Seems like ever single animal over there has a way to kill you. He also has to check his shoes from brownback spiders and other nasties.


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## Burnse (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok, I have to ask. How did the python get up there in the first place?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 7, 2010)

Ha, red-back spiders, Bruno.... there's actually a fairly large nest of them near my work, we find them every now and then.


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 7, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> A friend of mine lives down under (Melbourne) he has a 6 foot pythin living in his roof. He says it keeps away other animals and it doesn't bother them so he leaves it alone. Seems like ever single animal over there has a way to kill you. He also has to check his shoes from brownback spiders and other nasties.



Hahahahaha what's your friends' name? I'd love to meet the guy who is comfortable with a 6 foot python slithering around in his roof! I take it you mean Red Back? Brown Back (aka Brown Recluse or Fiddle Back) is generally found in North America...


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 7, 2010)

Sorry, yes I think so. It is the kind that is poisonous and likes to sleep in shoes. How the snake got into the roof is not that much of a mystery. He has a house that I would call 'mansion' in a large plot of land that might as well be called 'jungle'. His house is surrounded by trees, foliage, etc. It is his refuge from civilization. The snake probably just slithered from a tree into his roof.

Since he lives in such a place, there is an abundance of things that would want to take shelter in his roof. He prefers the python since it stays away from humans and keeps away other, more troublesome guests.


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## ElfTengu (Nov 7, 2010)

Unfortunately they don't make curtain poles like they used to. A weighty voile panel can be too much, never mind trying to do drills with an opponent who is twirling an ironwood example.

And splinters from innapproriate training weapons should not be underestimated.

But on the other hand, they don't make actual bo staffs like they used to. They were always Taiwanese or Chinese, but they must have cut down all the good trees in the late 80s and early 90s, and everything is wrong about them now, expecially those clunky bokkens where the ridge for the tsuba doesn't go all the way around and the balance is terrible.

If you are going to buy a bo, hanbo and bokken, try to buy one that is neither prohibitively expensive nor cheap mass produced rubbish.

For anyone in the UK, Nine Circles are probably your best bet, I don't know who the equivalents would be in the US or down under.

http://ninecircles.co.uk/

Oho, I see they have a US branch now! Happy shopping!


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 7, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Sorry, yes I think so. It is the kind that is poisonous and likes to sleep in shoes. How the snake got into the roof is not that much of a mystery. He has a house that I would call 'mansion' in a large plot of land that might as well be called 'jungle'. His house is surrounded by trees, foliage, etc. It is his refuge from civilization. The snake probably just slithered from a tree into his roof.
> 
> Since he lives in such a place, there is an abundance of things that would want to take shelter in his roof. He prefers the python since it stays away from humans and keeps away other, more troublesome guests.


 
Hahaha Bruno! As you said yourself, most of the damn things we have down here try to kill you! Especially the drop bears


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 8, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Actually, there is no defined difference between "Kusari Fundo", "Fundo", "Manriki", "Manriki Gusari", and any other variant other than the definitions as supplied by the particular Ryu teaching them. It has nothing to do with the types of weights, length of chain, or even the number of weights or lengths of the chain that make up the weapon.
> 
> I'm going to ask as well, though, as I haven't taken you through any Kusari work, or any Shuriken, Bo or otherwise, what are you basing your experiences of them on?



for the kasari fundo and bo shuriken I have a book on the basics called ninja weapons chain and shuriken by charles v. grauzanski. for bo shuriken there are thousands of videos on making and throwing bo shuriken. kasari fundo is a little harder to find information on im planning to buy some dvds on kasari fundo from budovideos website but I kind of went of armed combat and started hand conditioning and training more on taijutsu resently.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 8, 2010)

I know the book. The basis of the kusari-jutsu is Masaki Ryu, as taught by Yumio Nawa. It's a decent book, but frankly, knowing you as I do, I'm going to categorically state that you have absolutely no training in these weapons yet. You have some reasearch/reading in them, but that's it, really. The details of movement just don't come across in these forms, and you need a lot more experience than you currently have to really get that aspect out of them.

Really, my advice is to leave off the DVDs for the moment at least. We'll be covering some basic aspects of Kusari Fundo in December, after that I can take you through a way to approach the weapons for your home study over our break if you wish. But right now, this doesn't quite classify as actual "training" with these weapons, so you know.


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## jks9199 (Nov 8, 2010)

Hint, Dusk2Dawn...

YOUR TEACHER is saying, in essence, that your enthusiasm is fantastic.  But you need to trust your teacher and stop hunting so hard outside; he'll take care of you.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 11, 2010)

thanks sensei Parker
I will wait untill these things get covered in class.


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## ElfTengu (Nov 11, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Hint, Dusk2Dawn...
> 
> YOUR TEACHER is saying, in essence, that your enthusiasm is fantastic. But you need to trust your teacher and stop hunting so hard outside; he'll take care of you.


 
It's too late, there is a reason why this medium of communications is called the 'net' and the 'web', because once you're caught there's no escape, as we all know!

bwahaha!


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