# sand bag punching vs. punching bag



## lonecoyote (Jul 12, 2005)

Are they the same thing? I've recently gotten ahold of some books on kung fu which advocate punching sand bags, with illustrations. These are not hanging heavy bags but huge canvas bags filled with sand. The sand bags must weigh more than any commercially availible heavy bag, which would turn it into a fundamentally different exercise, especially the way the book says to use it, punching a certain number of times over a certain number of days, which puts it more in the category of a conditioning tool. One book says to then change the filling in the bag, claiming that one can eventually work up to iron filings. Is this iron fist? Anybody train this way?


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## 7starmantis (Jul 12, 2005)

Yes, that is a method of conditioning, its completely seperate from hitting a heavy bag for training or excersize. Yes, I have done quite a bit of "iron body" training, but I take it very slow and easy. I usually do more arms and shins than anything else though.

7sm


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## Sigung86 (Jul 12, 2005)

I would like to advise CAUTION at this point.  If you are going to begin hand conditioning, you really, REALLY need to have someone who knows it to teach it to you.  I remember a gentleman who did lots of "by the book" hand conditioning, and iron palm back about 30 years ago.  He could shatter stuff, he was deadly, in fact.  Now a days, he's in his 60s.  He must spend an hour to an hour and a half, every morning, working with massage and therapy type motions so that he can open his hands fully.

Of course, having said that, they are your hands.  But you really should think about what all you hands do for you before you begin to indiscriminately try to train them and end up limiting what you can and can not do as you get older.  When you are young it doesn't seem so important, perhaps.  As you get older it all becomes more precious.


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## vincehardy3 (Jul 15, 2005)

I would agree with the post that leans towards "caution".  Unless you have a viable instructor in this discipline I would suggest staying away from it.  My instructor has taught us the discipline of "iron palm" training, and there are several different exercises that are performed over a 100-day period.  There is are also qigong exercises that accompany this type of training.  There is also a particular type of ointment that the practitioners rub into their hands before/during/after conditioning.  The iron palm training also encompasses hanging-heavy bag work.

I can tell you this much about the heavy bag work.  If you hit the heavy bag and it starts swinging then your technique (punch) is incorrect.  If the bag pops in-place with no swinging then your technique is good.  This translates into the physical realm like this...if you punch your opponent and they fly back several feet then it is a weak technique.  It looks good in the movies, and that is about it.  If you punch your opponent and they drop right where they are standing, then the technique is strong.  They will hesitate on getting up, or they might not get up--the latter is moreso true.  I hope that this helps out.

Have a good one,


Vince


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## 7starmantis (Jul 15, 2005)

Thats an interesting statement. Would you mind explaining it a bit more? Why would it be weak or bad for your force to knock your opponent backwards or away?

7sm


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## Andrew Green (Jul 15, 2005)

Why risk your hands for what amounts to "A cool thing to impress people with"?

 There is a very good reason any boxing coach worth his salt will tell you to wear handwraps and gloves when hitting a bag.


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## clfsean (Jul 15, 2005)

It's surface force, not penetrating force.


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## 7starmantis (Jul 15, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Why risk your hands for what amounts to "A cool thing to impress people with"?
> 
> There is a very good reason any boxing coach worth his salt will tell you to wear handwraps and gloves when hitting a bag.


  Very true....key word = boxing



			
				clfsean said:
			
		

> It's surface force, not penetrating force.


 Who are you answering, me? 

  7sm


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## vincehardy3 (Jul 15, 2005)

"clfsean" mentioned something about surface force and penetrating force.  This is what I am getting at.  Within the "internal" arts we focus on penetrating force, and of course there are physics that can explain all this--I'm not a physicist.  I train my punches to get that penetrating effect--this takes focus, which in-turn takes training.  If I strike the heavy bag it will swing back-and-forth due to the force of my blow having a lot of shock (surface force).  If I focus my blow like a "laserbeam" I will get that penetrating force that makes my opponent feel like they are being pierced by a knife.  That is the best way that I can explain it.  You can take notice by how the heavy bag reacts--swings or pops.

I train this several ways:  1) through candle training--I punch at the flame and stop my blow 1/2" away from the flame.  If my blow is focused it will extinguish the flame, if not the flame will not extinguish.  I continue to increase the distance as I progress until I reach my maximum distance.  This will help with focus and speed.  2)  I do a lot of brick breaking without spacers.  This really helps with focus.  I do this for training reasons and not my male ego.  3)  Another exercise is the paper drop.  You can hold up a piece of newspaper and let it drop.  As it drops you can pierce it with your index finger or with a punch.  Increase the bulk as it gets easier.  4)  The final thing that I do is test my ability against my opponent/training partner.  They will indicate if my blow has a lot of shock by verbally telling me.  If it has penetrating energy they will drop, and that is all the verification that I need.

I hope that this explains it better.  If not, I will try to elaborate more.  Thank you for your patience.


Vince


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## Roger Tibbets (Jul 15, 2005)

Hi Vince -

I would love to see the physics explanation for this.  Please provide references if you come across any.

Thanks.


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## vincehardy3 (Jul 15, 2005)

Roger,

No problem.  One of our senior instructors is in the medical/science field, and I will run this by him in order to get his understand of the physics portion of this topic.

Have a good one,


Vince


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## Andrew Green (Jul 16, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Very true....key word = boxing


 Slamming your fist into something is slamming your fist into something.  Changing the name doesn't make your joints react differently to impact.


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## vincehardy3 (Jul 16, 2005)

Roger,

I asked the chief instructor and a senior instructor of our system about the question you posed, and here are there replies:

I don't know that I can help insofar as providing an explanation with references to specific laws of physics, but...

     In the case of the bag flying away from you (or your opponent) when you strike it/him, this demonstrates that the force of the blow is dissipated along the outer surface of the object to create a "pushing" effect.
     "Shock" is a great deal of force concentrated onto a very small point which deeply penetrates the target instead of being spread over a large surface area.  There is no "pushing" effect, so the target/victim doesn't fly away from you.  A heavy bag will either bounce up and down or "scissors."  A human will usually just collapse due to internal damage.
     If you hold the muzzle of a high-caliber weapon against (or very close to) a bag and fire it, the extreme shock will cause the bag to jump or "scissors."  
     I think it has everything to do with a large amount of force concentrated onto a very small surface and delivered with sufficient velocity.  This allows for deep and very quick penetration.
      If the force is spread over a larger surface and/or lacks adequate velocity, more of a "pushing" effect is the result.
     A human body can only move so many ways to maximize both it's mass and velocity and we call these the "body actions."  There are no other ways to do this, regardless of what style or art someone practices.
     Does that help?

Sifu Starr

The other reply:


Well...the difference is in the ballistsics of the punch.
So, if you are looking for a physical explanation, that is the area you need to look at.

Velocity and focus are key to executing a finishing blow...
Yes, you can punch someone and move them a good distance but what this demonstrates is a force that is decelerating as it meets the target.
The target absorbs a fair amount of the force but there is no shock in the technique.

The technique you describe (where the bag pops in place or the opponent drops in place) is maximizing velocity and mass with a focus that allows transfer of force over the shortest time possible...hence, big shock, little movement...It is like the difference between a muzzle loader 50 caliber round with a single powder charge versus a 50 caliber fast burn powder with a plechette round...One packs a hell of a punch IF it can penetrate the surface (muzzle loaded round)...the other will pierce armor and create a shock wave that causes an "implosion" type injury...

When we demonstrate the force of an internal punch, we use the less lethal version and move our training partner back...
When we demonstrate the force of the "shock" we are capable of...we reduce the velocity and the mass so we don't hurt the training partner.
BUT, the focused strike IS quite obvious to the receiving party.

So, when you want to discuss the "physics" of a punch...look to the literature on ballistics...it is the closest thing to really describing what we do.

chufeng


I hope that these explanations help out.  Have a good one.


Vince


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## 7starmantis (Jul 16, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Slamming your fist into something is slamming your fist into something. Changing the name doesn't make your joints react differently to impact.


 Your 100% correct, however the point was the intent of training. Boxing uses gloves which really need very little hand conditioning, thats why a good boxing coach will tell you to wrap your hands. He doesn't need you to learn to make full contact without gloves on, most self defense situations occur without gloves however. To be honest, I dont let anyone in our bag room without wraped wrists and covered hands, but thats very different from hand conditioning. The "cool trick to impress people" is not what I'm refering to either.

   7sm


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## brothershaw (Jul 30, 2005)

Changing the name doesnt make your joints react differently but training makes you body react differently. 
    If you dont practice ( condition) your body to hit a solid object you can do as much damage to yourself as the object you hit, like breaking your own hand punching someone in the head.


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