# Where On The Scale of Spirituality...?



## MartialIntent

Many arts today profess a certain spirituality as part of their core philosophy - often coming directly from the enlightened ways of the founding fathers of the art [from Ueshiba to Parker and many others]. 

Unfortunately nowadays, it seems this spirituality often stops at the scroll at the dojo door or on the homepage of the official website and many schools appear to pay only _lip service_ to the spiritual aspects of their art.

Personally I see this as a tragedy because I feel that not just some [the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.] but **all** martial arts are capable of providing us with great spirituality and self-enlightenment through disciplined personal practise of the physical aspects alone. 

I know spirituality is an innately _personal_ thing but I'm saddened by both the lack even of direction given - or often even mention made of - sprituality in the schools I've visited and also in the shortfall of consideration given to this wonderful aspect of our martial arts [particularly in these days where we're constantly media-thrashed with the whips of "religion"]

I'd be interested to hear from you all: where on the spirituality scale do you see your art *as you practise it*?

Respects!


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## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.


 
I would be interested to know why you feel Tai Chi has any more or less spirituality than any other martial art.

Yes it was supposedly created by a Taoist, but the Chinese Tai Chi masters I have meant or studied with never speak about religion or spirituality. It is an internal martial art, but that is not to say that it is spiritual. 

I have practiced tai chi for many years and I have dabbled in a couple other internal martial arts but none have ever been what I would call spiritual. 

You may find more spirituality in non-martial tai chi, which tends to be an American invention.


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## Carol

The lack of "spiritual direction" is not something that I find to be a shame, I'll explain why.

There are _many _spiritual directions.  When I practice my art, I find so many parallels to my faith, which has martial traditions of its own.  I find that through my art, I've even been able to take a better understanding of my faith.

My spirituality grows through introspection and meditation.  It is something that I would like to explore growing my spirituality with like-minded people, or even open-minded people.  But...too often I feel that growing spirtuality is translated to proselytizing a faith or pushing their ideals.  

I don't want the wonder that I feel when I train to be spoiled by someone else's agenda.  It's too precious to me.


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## Touch Of Death

Having positive life skills gives you purpose and makes you sure of your actions. Negative vibes put you in situations where you know your actions may not be approprate and that makes you unsure of yourself. The Kenpo system places courage as key. If you think about it it takes a lot less courage to do the right thing.
Sean


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## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I would be interested to know why you feel Tai Chi has any more or less spirituality than any other martial art.
> 
> Yes it was supposedly created by a Taoist, but the Chinese Tai Chi masters I have meant or studied with never speak about religion or spirituality. It is an internal martial art, but that is not to say that it is spiritual.
> 
> I have practiced tai chi for many years and I have dabbled in a couple other internal martial arts but none have ever been what I would call spiritual.
> 
> You may find more spirituality in non-martial tai chi, which tends to be an American invention.


Thanks for your comment...

I chose Tai Chi arbitrarily because of a perception of the art as being based on slow, meditative techniques for grounding and centering - these very aspects suggested to me that it was an art of mind-body development giving the practitioner both strength and serenity. 
:asian: Apologies if my knowledge of the art is lacking! 

So are you saying that you don't feel *any* sense of personal enlightenment at all from practising Tai Chi?

My point is that the spirituality has gone from many of our arts, most of which were borne from the founder's drive for knowledge and enlightenment through physical movements.

What happened to that spirituality? Are we just no longer spiritual martial artists? Are we only interested in the kick and punch?

Respects!


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## MartialIntent

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> My spirituality grows through introspection and meditation. It is something that I would like to explore growing my spirituality with like-minded people, or even open-minded people. But...too often I feel that growing spirtuality is translated to proselytizing a faith or pushing their ideals.
> 
> I don't want the wonder that I feel when I train to be spoiled by someone else's agenda. It's too precious to me.


Exactly - I'm with you here on this. I think often the problem is that folk unfortunately correlate spirituality [as in self-knowledge] with _religion_ and of course, no-one likes to be preached to... What I'm advocating is some form of discussion at least within schools as to the positive benefits achieved by focussing on how disciplined training can give you a better clue of who you are as a student of the art and moreover, as a person! 

Other instructors I've met shy away from that side of their art thinking it's in some way "beyond" what students will comprehend. I have to say, this is not my experience, having found many students like yourself who are genuinely interested in the "thinking" side of the art - though certainly I understand as you say it's not for everyone.

I feel though that most schools are happy to overlook spirituality because it's neither what brings them publicity / new memberships nor will it ever look cool on a website video clip! But I think ultimately omitting it is to the detriment of the school. 

Thanks for your comment.

Respects!


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## MartialIntent

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> Having positive life skills gives you purpose and makes you sure of your actions. Negative vibes put you in situations where you know your actions may not be approprate and that makes you unsure of yourself. The Kenpo system places courage as key. If you think about it it takes a lot less courage to do the right thing.
> Sean


Exactly - so you can interpret the "spiritual" tenets of Kenpo and utilise them in your daily life. I'm encouraged that the deeper aspects of your art aren't overlooked! I wonder though are you encouraged in your direction by your school or is this something pursued by and of yourself?

Interested to know...

Respects!


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## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Thanks for your comment...
> 
> I chose Tai Chi arbitrarily because of a perception of the art as being based on slow, meditative techniques for grounding and centering - these very aspects suggested to me that it was an art of mind-body development giving the practitioner both strength and serenity.
> :asian: Apologies if my knowledge of the art is lacking!
> 
> So are you saying that you don't feel *any* sense of personal enlightenment at all from practising Tai Chi?
> 
> My point is that the spirituality has gone from many of our arts, most of which were borne from the founder's drive for knowledge and enlightenment through physical movements.
> 
> What happened to that spirituality? Are we just no longer spiritual martial artists? Are we only interested in the kick and punch?
> 
> Respects!


 
No apology necessary, I tend to associate spirituality with organized religion, which I do realize is a somewhat flawed association by the definition you put forth. 

Please excuse me if I am a bit sensitive when it comes to Tai Chi, it currently seems at every turn I find those that are changing Tai Chi from a very effective internal martial art to the Tai Chi health dance and crystal show. This by the way is in no reference to you or this post or anyone in it, just the ranting of a madman. 

By your definition in Tai Chi you can experience centering and calm, but personal enlightenment.....no, that is a bit of a stretch. I can get a sense of awareness of myself and my surroundings, but not enlightenment. To me enlightened people are those along the line of Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Zen and Taoist Priests, possibly the Pope, but not this simple Martial Artist. 

I see a problem with martial arts today and the forced association of religion. If that is what makes someone happy or feel better about themselves and there fellow man then that is great. I am all for freedom of religion. But most martial arts were not originally religious in the sense of an organized religion, they have been influenced by them, but on a philosophical basis that come out as respect not worship.


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## SAVAGE

I will agree that MA makes you more aware of your body, it can help to train the mind to focus...but by spirit..to ME it means sould..and MA doesnt..never has up to this point nourished my soul or spirit!

So I will have to say my spirituality I do not learn from MA!

Now before everyone gets testy...this is only my experience...you cant change it.....I am sure it is very different for othes..and I cannot change that either..nor will I try...this is just my $0.02


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## Touch Of Death

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Exactly - so you can interpret the "spiritual" tenets of Kenpo and utilise them in your daily life. I'm encouraged that the deeper aspects of your art aren't overlooked! I wonder though are you encouraged in your direction by your school or is this something pursued by and of yourself?
> 
> Interested to know...
> 
> Respects!


 Not so much when I started but I train in a Kid focused school now so absolutely. Our website is www.kicknfun.com if you want an idea of where we are comming from. Life principles are our selling point.
Sean


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## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> By your definition in Tai Chi you can experience centering and calm, but personal enlightenment.....no, that is a bit of a stretch. I can get a sense of awareness of myself and my surroundings, but not enlightenment. To me enlightened people are those along the line of Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Zen and Taoist Priests, possibly the Pope, but not this simple Martial Artist.


Agreed, but these are _religious _icons - enlightenment for those involves the big concepts of universe and us in it as a whole [I'm summarizing terribly] but what I'm talking about is that sort of _personal_ epiphany - the realization that *I am* the sort of person who can defend himself, endure pain, focus on tasks, be courageous etc... It's spirituality at the individual level I'm interested in from the MA point of view.

I'm certain you as a practitioner experience that all the time - I think most martial practitioners do but don't call it by the name of spirituality / emlightenment. I just don't think schools discuss the issue enough [or often at all] because, as you rightly say, there's a certain intermingling of this valid personal-spirituality that the martial arts give us with organised religion.

Thanks for the comment...

Respects!


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## MartialIntent

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I will agree that MA makes you more aware of your body, it can help to train the mind to focus...but by spirit..to ME it means sould..and MA doesnt..never has up to this point nourished my soul or spirit!
> 
> So I will have to say my spirituality I do not learn from MA!
> 
> Now before everyone gets testy...this is only my experience...you cant change it.....I am sure it is very different for othes..and I cannot change that either..nor will I try...this is just my $0.02


I fully understand where you're coming from though I think many of us still do associate "spirituality" with something only performed by sages / Tibetan monks etc... I know it's a matter of meaning but I think *all of us* who diligently practise our art gain insights into ourselves: our limits, our motivations, our strengths and physical capabilities, and I think through those realizations, we learn about who we are and what sort of person we are. For me at least, that is true personal spirituality and from that we gain enlightenment, not tapping a gong [no disrespect to gong-tappers of course!!]

What do you think?

Respects!


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## MartialIntent

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> Not so much when I started but I train in a Kid focused school now so absolutely. Our website is www.kicknfun.com if you want an idea of where we are comming from. Life principles are our selling point.
> Sean


I think you've got a great grasp of teaching spirituality at the "grass roots" level, ie. it's not preachy but done within the _learning_ framework. Great stuff. I think true martial arts should always be a part and play a role in it's own community. I really like that Whole Family ethos - this is new to me and very progressive. Good luck to you!


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## Andrew Green

Martial arts is a physical activity, and like a good many other physical activities people can have spiritual experiences while doing it.  Different people will get this in different ways, same as spiritual experiences from anything else.

Some people look at what they believe to be the virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich and have a spiritual experience, some people push there bodies in physical training.

Personally if a instructor tried to teach me spirituallity I'd probably find a new instructor.  If I wanted to get taught a "way" of spirituality I'd join a church, him trying to push his beliefs on me would kill whatever spiritual potential was there.


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## ed-swckf

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Many arts today profess a certain spirituality as part of their core philosophy - often coming directly from the enlightened ways of the founding fathers of the art [from Ueshiba to Parker and many others].
> 
> Unfortunately nowadays, it seems this spirituality often stops at the scroll at the dojo door or on the homepage of the official website and many schools appear to pay only _lip service_ to the spiritual aspects of their art.
> 
> Personally I see this as a tragedy because I feel that not just some [the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.] but **all** martial arts are capable of providing us with great spirituality and self-enlightenment through disciplined personal practise of the physical aspects alone.
> 
> I know spirituality is an innately _personal_ thing but I'm saddened by both the lack even of direction given - or often even mention made of - sprituality in the schools I've visited and also in the shortfall of consideration given to this wonderful aspect of our martial arts [particularly in these days where we're constantly media-thrashed with the whips of "religion"]
> 
> I'd be interested to hear from you all: where on the spirituality scale do you see your art *as you practise it*?
> 
> Respects!


 
I see my art on the scale as somewhere you can gain or further any spiritual belief if you so choose, you can just as simply not associate any spirituality with my art in  the way i was taught.


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## Bigshadow

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> If you think about it it takes a lot less courage to do the right thing.
> Sean



That is not necessarily true...   Sometimes it takes far more courage to do the RIGHT thing!


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## MartialIntent

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Personally if a instructor tried to teach me spirituallity I'd probably find a new instructor. If I wanted to get taught a "way" of spirituality I'd join a church, him trying to push his beliefs on me would kill whatever spiritual potential was there.


I agree, spirituality is a wholly personal endeavour - though huge religious / evangelical institutions might argue otherwise. But as you rightly point out, the very physicality and conscientious application of our martial arts - not only in the dojo but taking it into our everyday lives - can point the practitioner towards enlightenment and a deeper knowledge of themselves. For me, that's what true spirituality through martial arts is about. 

My point is that schools seldom point out this positive benefit of practising martial arts. I'm no advocate of preaching of an instructor's beliefs - there's sinply no place for it in the dojo. But I would encourage a discussion of how focussed practise and application of an art can help students towards *their own* self-discovery where for example showing a student he can push his limits well beyond what he'd thought possible or seeing a student take down opponents much larger than she is, is demonstrated as being a practise of spirituality.

I think this has a positive benefit for all arts showing there's more to the art than strikes and throws - even though it's through those strikes and throws that practitioners come to greater self-knowledge. 
To me, this is all part of enriching one's awareness of oneself and moreover, it's something that focussed martial artists DO ALREADY without explicitly having it named. 

Hope that makes at least some sense. I'm setting myself up for attack here but it's simply what I believe 

Respects!


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## MartialIntent

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I see my art on the scale as somewhere you can gain or further any spiritual belief if you so choose, you can just as simply not associate any spirituality with my art in the way i was taught.


Do you find though, if you *did* chose to dig deeper into the spiritual side of your art, that there'd be any help at your school to do so? I know in my experience that's seldom the case.

I'm interested to know!


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## Bigshadow

I think martial arts cultivates the spirit.  This can be good, bad, or somewhere in between.  It is a very personal thing and I don't think it can be taught, it just comes along with the training.  We don't talk about it or try to teach it (as far as I know).


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## Andrew Green

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> My point is that schools seldom point out this positive benefit of practising martial arts. I'm no advocate of preaching of an instructor's beliefs - there's sinply no place for it in the dojo. But I would encourage a discussion of how focussed practise and application of an art can help students towards *their own* self-discovery where for example showing a student he can push his limits well beyond what he'd thought possible or seeing a student take down opponents much larger than she is, is demonstrated as being a practise of spirituality.



I think it would be a hard thing to discuss without putting off a lot of people.  On the other hand an instructor can push people past there previous limits, and get them taking down larger people.  Those that will find this a spiritual experience still will, and those that won't aren't going to get put off by speeches about how they could.

Resources can be provided, a list of reading materials, be open to discuss it with anyone that is interested, but I wouldn't spend class time on it.


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## MartialIntent

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I think martial arts cultivates the spirit. This can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. It is a very personal thing and I don't think it can be taught, it just comes along with the training. We don't talk about it or try to teach it (as far as I know).


It's unfortunate that it is often swept under the mats or disregarded altogether because in those spiritual aspects of our practise, I feel there lie many rewards for us students.

I know where you're coming from though. This is the real world and normally spirituality in our arts is seen as "soft" or coming a distant second behind step-through side-kicks etc...

Respects!


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## MartialIntent

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I think it would be a hard thing to discuss without putting off a lot of people. On the other hand an instructor can push people past there previous limits, and get them taking down larger people. Those that will find this a spiritual experience still will, and those that won't aren't going to get put off by speeches about how they could.
> 
> Resources can be provided, a list of reading materials, be open to discuss it with anyone that is interested, but I wouldn't spend class time on it.


From my experience, many folk do exactly what you're saying and go outside the dojo to continue their researches. I think it's a shame that we can't provide anything more than passing remarks or book advice to interested students. After all, if a student asked for help with a tech, would we suggest an appropriate publication from Amazon? Or would we roll up our cuffs and begin?

I think maybe there's a lack of confidence in our own knowledge [I'm speaking personally] of the spiritual side of our arts - and that's simply because no one pointed it out or showed us the way either. Somewhere perhaps, has the verve for spirituality displayed by the founding fathers of our arts, become lost in translation as it's been passed down through the years to our individual schools?

Or are we really no longer interested?

What do you think?

Respects!


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## Andrew Green

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> After all, if a student asked for help with a tech, would we suggest an appropriate publication from Amazon? Or would we roll up our cuffs and begin?



You can go beyond that, stay late after class and have a chat, head to a lounge and do it over a beer....err.... I mean juice. But to do it durring class I think would be a mistake in a large school, in a smaller school you might be able to draw a targeted enough group of people to do it though.

Time is always an issue too, most people only spend 2-5 hours a week in a martial arts class, there is only so much you can do.  And for most of them the reason they are there is the physical stuff, they are there to workout and get in shape, learn to fight, etc.


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## Blindside

MartialIntent,

I have a problem with your terminology, "spirituality" as you are using seems to denote greater self-awareness.  I (and I suspect many other people) use "spirituality" as a knowledge or sense of something greater than ourselves, to be beyond just our own bodies into something bigger and greater in scale.

Has my martial arts made me more self-aware, absolutely, it is a vehicle to challenge my limits.  Has it made me more spiritual, nope, not at all, of course, by my own definition, I'm not exactly a spiritually inclined person.

Lamont


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## MartialIntent

Blindside said:
			
		

> MartialIntent,
> 
> I have a problem with your terminology, "spirituality" as you are using seems to denote greater self-awareness. I (and I suspect many other people) use "spirituality" as a knowledge or sense of something greater than ourselves, to be beyond just our own bodies into something bigger and greater in scale.
> 
> Has my martial arts made me more self-aware, absolutely, it is a vehicle to challenge my limits. Has it made me more spiritual, nope, not at all, of course, by my own definition, I'm not exactly a spiritually inclined person.
> 
> Lamont


I appreciate your comments! For me [and it's just an opinion], that's venturing into the doctrines of more organised religion. I have no beliefs in the area of "something bigger" and if I did I would be keen to keep such beliefs out of the dojo. I'm talking purely of personal spirituality - by that I mean a greater knowledge and appreciation of oneself, who we are and the feats we're capable of. 

I think these spiritual benefits often bestowed upon us through practice of our arts are often used as a bullet-point on the school website but don't hold up to further scrutiny ie. when a student seeks direction on their own journey or wishes to follow up.

Hope that makes sense...

Respects!


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## MartialIntent

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> You can go beyond that, stay late after class and have a chat, head to a lounge and do it over a beer....err.... I mean juice. But to do it durring class I think would be a mistake in a large school, in a smaller school you might be able to draw a targeted enough group of people to do it though.
> 
> Time is always an issue too, most people only spend 2-5 hours a week in a martial arts class, there is only so much you can do. And for most of them the reason they are there is the physical stuff, they are there to workout and get in shape, learn to fight, etc.


Time of course, is always against us! I think your idea of a targeted group is an excellent one. Schools could live with that and work it within their own frameworks [like a special class maybe?] I suppose finding appropriate mentors - [I think you're correct, teachers by implication is not the correct term - would need to be sought.

Very interesting post: got me thinking...

Respects!


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## SAVAGE

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I fully understand where you're coming from though I think many of us still do associate "spirituality" with something only performed by sages / Tibetan monks etc... I know it's a matter of meaning but I think *all of us* who diligently practise our art gain insights into ourselves: our limits, our motivations, our strengths and physical capabilities, and I think through those realizations, we learn about who we are and what sort of person we are. For me at least, that is true personal spirituality and from that we gain enlightenment, not tapping a gong [no disrespect to gong-tappers of course!!]
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Respects!


 
I agree to a great extent...but to me understanding self..is just that understanding self...and has nothing to do with soul..or the gong tappers!

I suppose in my mind they are as different as apples and oranges...mind you in the SAVAGE world (thats my world)...there is black and white and no shades of grey...it is or it isnt....that makes my life so much more simple!

But I must say good post!


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## Touch Of Death

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That is not necessarily true... Sometimes it takes far more courage to do the RIGHT thing!


The more rightious you are inside the easier it becomes.
Sean


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## MartialIntent

Many thanks for all your input. Maybe I could ask another question based on an issue raised upthread... 

Could the lack of *upfront* spirituality in our martial arts schools indicate we're in some ways _afraid_ of it? And might this be because of a dearth of knowledge of our own personal spirituality?

Is the spirituality brought to most of our arts by the arts' creators a taboo subject nowadays? And does that mean we are we no longer deep spiritual martial artists with a martial purpose but superficial punching-machines? [devil's advocate]

Respects!


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## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Many thanks for all your input. Maybe I could ask another question based on an issue raised upthread...
> 
> Could the lack of *upfront* spirituality in our martial arts schools indicate we're in some ways _afraid_ of it? And might this be because of a dearth of knowledge of our own personal spirituality?
> 
> Is the spirituality brought to most of our arts by the arts' creators a taboo subject nowadays? And does that mean we are we no longer deep spiritual martial artists with a martial purpose but superficial punching-machines? [devil's advocate]
> 
> Respects!


 
No, it indicates it is not there or overtly there in the first place. 

Before I begin, I am not angry and I am not attacking anyone, I am just stating what I believe

I have been trying to stay out of this post, but I tend to believe that it is this very attitude that is destroying Martial arts, it certainly has destroyed martial Tai Chi. It is watering it down and making it less of an actual martial art and more of a meditation/dance practice. 

You are looking spirituality and martial arts from a western perspective and the majority of martial arts come from the eastern perspective. It appears to me that you are attempting to associate martial arts with religion and mysticism. Martial arts are a system of warfare not worship. 

I have studied with 3 teachers from China one from Korea and one from the USA trained in Japan. I have talked with 2 other Chinese masters and a few other American masters and spirituality is never discussed, not because of fear but because it is not why they are there, it is not why they train and it is not what they teach, Spirituality never even entered into the training or discussion once. 

If, from the eastern perspective it is there, it is simply there and that is it. You are there to learn martial arts not religion. And in general Eastern thinking does not separate things the way we do in the west.

The emphasis on apirituality, in my opinion, in martial arts is a product of the west. 

As I understand spirituality, and it appears others in this post agree, it is a religious issue not a martial arts issue. 

With that being said you should also be told I study "Traditional Chinese Internal Martial Arts" and I still do not refer to any part of it as spirituality.

I'm done now and I will return to silence
T


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## Xue Sheng

I feel I need to add one more thing.

If your interests are self-cultivation in the martial arts over warfare you should be looking to Japanese styles that are considered a Do.

Aikido, Karate Do, etc.

Stay away from Jitsu styles such as Jujitsu and Aikijitsu.

 But I am willing to say; I still do not consider this Spirituality by my definition.


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## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I have been trying to stay out of this post, but I tend to believe that it is this very attitude that is destroying Martial arts, it certainly has destroyed martial Tai Chi. It is watering it down and making it less of an actual martial art and more of a meditation/dance practice.
> 
> You are looking spirituality and martial arts from a western perspective and the majority of martial arts come from the eastern perspective. It appears to me that you are attempting to associate martial arts with religion and mysticism. Martial arts are a system of warfare not worship.


Well, you got me there - I look at spirituality in the martial arts from a western perspective because that's the only perspective I have available to me: I live in the west, I train in the west and am largely a product of western society.

My attitude is that spirituality _in the personal sense_ - and not some pseudo-religious universal mysticism - is available to each and every one of us who practise a martial art, whether it be traditional CMA, Okinawan, Korean, Filipino, of western-origin or any of the other fantastic modern arts we have available to us.


The two key problems that disallow discussion and proper dissemination of spirituality in our martial arts schools are to my mind 1. confusion and 2. fear. 1. Why, oh why do so many confuse spirituality in the martial arts with religion when spirituality concerns enlightenment and religion is about adherence to doctrine? I say it's because of the eastern traditions - the relentless permeation into our martial consciousness of the images of sages on isolated snowy mountaintops, the inheritance of the notion that we have to be as Bodidharma or Morehei Ueshiba or Mr. goddamn Miyagi to appreciate deeper knowledge through the arts and the notion that spirituality is somehow *beyond* what we as grass-roots martial artists are capable of - who's at fault is irrelevant, this lie has become a truth.

​But for all that - as martial artists, PERSONAL spirituality IS achievable through practise of the art. 

You would tell me that helping kids away from substance abuse by showing them another way in the dojo isn't a spiritual experience for those kids. I say, it _*is*_ spiritual - it's as spiritual and enlightening and as great an injection of self-knowledge as anything I've ever seen in a church [and I've seen much] and yet it's NOT religion. Where I come from, nobody wants to hear preachers but nobody needs to preach in the dojo to reach this simple truth - it's in the physical application of the art, period and whether you call it spirituality matters not.

I maintain though, that we [instructors] neither discuss this in martial arts nor encourage individual's personal spiritual research in schools because we're deficient in knowledge of our own spirituality.

And that brings me to the second point...

2. A greater knowledge of who you are, what you can do and where you can be is available to you by the physical application of your martial art. But if students don't already know that, who's gonna tell them? Their instructor? Nope... Afraid. Students' conclusion? There is no spirituality in martial arts and we really are punching machines, but hey, we all love a superficial punching machine - *so* easy to train... [devil's advocate]
​Respects!


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## OnlyAnEgg

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> The more rightious you are inside the easier it becomes.
> Sean


 
I am compelled to disagree with this point, Sean.  Being righteous may allow for more determination  and the endurance to rise to a difficult situation and do what's right.  None of these things make it easier.  Ease is often the hallmark of an incorrect path in difficult times.  Doing the right thing does not always equate to doing an easy thing.


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## Touch Of Death

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I am compelled to disagree with this point, Sean. Being righteous may allow for more determination and the endurance to rise to a difficult situation and do what's right. None of these things make it easier. Ease is often the hallmark of an incorrect path in difficult times. Doing the right thing does not always equate to doing an easy thing.


Of course the easy thing to do is nothing, but being sure of yourself greases the wheels for action.
Sean


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## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> 2. A greater knowledge of who you are, what you can do and where you can be is available to you by the physical application of your martial art. But if students don't already know that, who's gonna tell them? Their instructor? Nope... Afraid. Students' conclusion? There is no spirituality in martial arts and we really are punching machines, but hey, we all love a superficial punching machine - *so* easy to train... [devil's advocate]
> Respects!


First this does not upset me, but the above quote could be considered insulting.

Second. If you wish to pursue spirituallity in Martial Arts that is fine, I will defend your right to do it. But to maintain that I do not becuae I either am afraid of it or do not understand it by your definition I simply do not agree with.

Pointing a child away from drugs to martial arts is spiritual to him/her, I have no idea. Is it a good thing? By all means YES. 

Training to move internal energy to emit fajing, nope..Don&#8217;t see spirituallity here. Even though it takes a long time to do and required, surprisingly enough, no punching. 

I feel the spirituallity forced on martial arts is ruining them. I have seen many a Tai Chi class degenerate into a Tai Chi mediation/Yoga/self development group and completely leave the martial arts behind, and leave it behind to a point were if you mention it or wish to pursue it you are labeled anti-spiritual, anti-social and/or overly violent. I have heard these Tai Chi practitioners say things like "I don't DO martial arts I DO Tai Chi" as if martial arts were bad. I have had people walk out of Tai Chi classes at the mere mention of Tai Chi and Martial Arts in the same sentence. 

If you want western spirituallity study Tai Chi Chih, I have no problem with this what-so-ever. But if I were to walk into one of these classes and tell them they are wrong or afraid of martial arts, that would be just wrong and all would agree. But if someone walks into a martial arts class and start talking about spirituallity and is not get greeted with open arms and acceptance of their way of thinking then those people in that martial arts class are afraid of the truth. I just don&#8217;t get the double standard. 

From my experience it is not the lack of spirituallity in a Tai Chi class that is the problem it the over abundance of it and the complete refusal of those pursuing Tai Chi for spirituallity to except the fact that it is a martial art. If you want spirituality or to experience an epiphany that is great, I will once again support it. But many of these people look down on simple martial artists as some sort of lesser human. So is there spirituality in arrogance and prejudice? 

There is no fear here of spirituallity there is only the feeling of being sick and tired of hearing about it from those that are attempting to force some mystical, spiritual, religion on it were one, for all intensive purposes, may already be there in a way you may just not understand. If you want spirituallity in martial arts I suggest you study where they came from before you impose your brand of spirituallity on it. I personally do not see it as spirituallity, but I am willing to admit knowing what I know about eastern religions that it is very possible that it is there already.

If you do practice internal martial arts there is a WHOLE lot beyond punching and if your art emphasizes punching as the be all end all of the art I suggest you find another teacher. But please do not judge me by your standard. I have done for the most part and the majority of the last 15 years only internal martial arts. And internal martial arts stress development of internal energy and focus, I do not call this spiritual but if you do that is fine. But please do not tell me that I do not understand it or I am afraid of it because I do not agree with your point of view. 



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> W
> 1. Why, oh why do so many confuse spirituality in the martial arts with religion when spirituality concerns enlightenment and religion is about adherence to doctrine? I say it's because of the eastern traditions - the relentless permeation into our martial consciousness of the images of sages on isolated snowy mountaintops, the inheritance of the notion that we have to be as Bodidharma or Morehei Ueshiba or Mr. goddamn Miyagi to appreciate deeper knowledge through the arts and the notion that spirituality is somehow *beyond* what we as grass-roots martial artists are capable of - who's at fault is irrelevant, this lie has become a truth.
> 
> Respects!


 
These are once again western perceptions of eastern mysticism. 

Mr. Miyagi is a character from a movie. 

Morehei Ueshiba was the founder of Aikido, which I previously stated a Do is more for self development than combat. This is not to say that an Aikido person is not a force to be reckoned with, quite the contrary they are very good martial artists. 

I do not think that a martial artist is not capable of spirituallity, I however do think forcing in upon a martial art where it either does not exist or already may exist in some other fashion you do not understand is wrong. 

As for religion and spirituallity, I am willing to accept the fact that you separate them. I however see spirituallity as being spiritual, which to me implies some sort of religious conviction.

Enlightenment, to me, is gained by people that dedicate a lot more to something that studying martial arts. As I previously stated, enlightenment is for those such as Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Zen monks, Taoist monks, etc, not this simple martial artist. I do not consider the term enlightenment one to be taken lightly nor claimed so easily.

These things are a whole lot harder to achieve than most people want to believe.


----------



## MartialIntent

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Ease is often the hallmark of an incorrect path in difficult times.


I really like that quote. Is that your own or are you paraphrasing? Good one!



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Doing the right thing does not always equate to doing an easy thing.


I difficult situations, I think this is exactly correct. I would equate this inner-strength that you're alluding to [which allows you to follow through on difficult paths] to true personal spirituality. I think it's about having an inner confidence to, as you say, do the right thing.

I firmly believe the martial arts can help us gain a deeper knowledge of ourselves which in turn gives us an insight into how we act, react and make those right decisions in difficult circumstances.

Would you agree or do you see the arts as being only a vehicle for superficial physical activity?

Recpects!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I really like that quote. Is that your own or are you paraphrasing? Good one!


That one's mine  Feel free to use it, royalty-free, for 6 months 




			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I difficult situations, I think this is exactly correct. I would equate this inner-strength that you're alluding to [which allows you to follow through on difficult paths] to true personal spirituality. I think it's about having an inner confidence to, as you say, do the right thing.


That's the essense of my comment. To me, personal faith, connectivity to a greater thing, is the true basis for righteous strength.



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I firmly believe the martial arts can help us gain a deeper knowledge of ourselves which in turn gives us an insight into how we act, react and make those right decisions in difficult circumstances.
> 
> Would you agree or do you see the arts as being only a vehicle for superficial physical activity?
> 
> Recpects!


 
MA has both sides to it. I know I've seen it misused as a tool for aggression; therefor, it does not have (necessarily) a positive spiritual aspect. It is both a path and a tool. It can be simply a way to better physical condition or it can be a meditative instrument on a spiritual path. It's big enough for both.

egg


----------



## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I feel the spirituallity forced on martial arts is ruining them.


The very act of "forcing" has a tendency to ruin many things. I practise Aikido - I _live_ by that tenet.



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> From my experience it is not the lack of spirituallity in a Tai Chi class that is the problem it the over abundance of it


Tai Chi is undoubtedly the exception to the rule. Most schools I have been a part of shy away from spirituality because instructors simply wouldn't know where to begin. This failure to even broach the subject has been inherent in their own training and probably their instructor's before them. My point is that somewhere in the history of most arts, the founder's verve for the "holistic" art [being physical AND spiritual] has either been wilfully dumped or merely not understood. From then on, the focus has been on training us to be punching machines and not thinking fighters. As I say, Tai Chi is a noteable exception to this lack of spiritual aspects.



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> But please do not tell me that I do not understand it or I am afraid of it because I do not agree with your point of view.


No, I'm not referring to you specifically, I'm simply attempting to open the discussion as wide as I can.



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I do not think that a martial artist is not capable of spirituallity, I however do think forcing in upon a martial art where it either does not exist or already may exist in some other fashion you do not understand is wrong.


I agree. Where I come from, no one forces anything upon anyone. My point is that if students wish to gain deeper spiritual knowledge of their art, often there are very few avenues of exploration open to them.



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Enlightenment, to me, is gained by people that dedicate a lot more to something that studying martial arts. As I previously stated, enlightenment is for those such as Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Zen monks, Taoist monks, etc, not this simple martial artist. I do not consider the term enlightenment one to be taken lightly nor claimed so easily.


Well, I've never even travelled to Shaolin and you know, for me, it's a very pessimistic and lowly attitude to think that [cf. my earlier Mr. Miyagi point] that us non-icons such as the ones you have mentioned, could never reach a level of personal enlightenment. I for one, think I'm well on the path to my own enlightment and self-knowledge through my art. And good luck to me!

Respects!


----------



## MartialIntent

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> MA has both sides to it. I know I've seen it misused as a tool for aggression; therefor, it does not have (necessarily) a positive spiritual aspect. It is both a path and a tool. It can be simply a way to better physical condition or it can be a meditative instrument on a spiritual path. It's big enough for both.
> egg


You cut to the chase right there. I think the arts have more than enough capacity, expertise and insight to train us to be "rounded" thinking fighters. But I see schools shrug off the spiritual: too sissy; nobody wants to know *that* stuff; we don't do that here - I get this all the time.

I think the reluctance comes down to fear in the instructor. I think this fear to raise the subject in the dojo comes not from the instructor's lack of knowledge, no, far from it - I've never met a genuine, focussed, disciplined instructor yet who wasn't a deep thinker in their art, no, on the contrary, the fear is often because no-one in their lineage has ever pointed out to him that what he does, how he acts, how he thinks and how he fights are spiritual aspects of the art.

This is the discussion I'm always looking to push.

Hope that makes a little sense...

Thanks for the free quote - I liked it so much, you might see that on my sig, especially since you've granted me unlimited usage... ;¬)

Respects!


----------



## Flying Crane

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> You cut to the chase right there. I think the arts have more than enough capacity, expertise and insight to train us to be "rounded" thinking fighters. But I see schools shrug off the spiritual: too sissy; nobody wants to know *that* stuff; we don't do that here - I get this all the time.
> 
> I think the reluctance comes down to fear in the instructor. I think this fear to raise the subject in the dojo comes not from the instructor's lack of knowledge, no, far from it - I've never met a genuine, focussed, disciplined instructor yet who wasn't a deep thinker in their art, no, on the contrary, the fear is often because no-one in their lineage has ever pointed out to him that what he does, how he acts, how he thinks and how he fights are spiritual aspects of the art.
> 
> This is the discussion I'm always looking to push.
> 
> Hope that makes a little sense...
> 
> Thanks for the free quote - I liked it so much, you might see that on my sig, especially since you've granted me unlimited usage... ;¬)
> 
> Respects!


 
I think I have to side with Xue Sheng here.  I think the reason spirituality often does not come up in the training is because it does not exist, not becuse the instructor is afraid to broach the subject.  These arts were developed for a very practical reason: to fight successfully and with finality.  Any other benefits that they may give is all extra.  They were not developed as a way of spirituality or philosophy, until the modern "do" derivatives of the Japanese arts made an attempt to change focus.  But these arts are derivatives of arts that were originally created for very practical and extreme purposes.

A few years ago I attempted to do some independent research into the "spiritual" aspect of Tibetan White Crane.  Since the art was supposedly developed by a Tibetan Lama it has this association with Tibetan Buddhism and I wondered just the one influenced or guided the other.  Of course my research was not by any means exhaustive, but I really couldn't find anything convincing.  Other than the pure association of having been developed by Buddhists, the best I could come up with is that the discipline necessary to effectively and dilligently practice the art can be useful in the study, meditation, and prayers of a practicing Buddhist.  I just couldn't find much beyond that.

I think there is a lot of truth in the notion that spirituality is forced on the martial arts thru an inappropriate western perspective, and it just doesn't fit the way we want it to.  We try to cram a square peg into a round hole.


----------



## Flying Crane

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I've never met a genuine, focussed, disciplined instructor yet who wasn't a deep thinker in their art, no, on the contrary, the fear is often because no-one in their lineage has ever pointed out to him that what he does, how he acts, how he thinks and how he fights are spiritual aspects of the art.


 
I meant to comment on this in my prior post, but forgot.

I think being a deep thinker in one's art is not necessarily the same as being spiritual.  I would hope that everyone thinks deeply, even meditatively, about the art that they practice.  But I just don't see this as spiritual.


----------



## Xue Sheng

First I do not think we are that far apart on this issue, I think it has come down to something I try to avoid "arguments over semantics" over one word "Spirituality"

Also depending on where your instructor was trained and by whom he or she has been trained by, this whole spirituality issue may be a non-issue to them. I have also been attempting to avoid this statement, but Western religions tend to be exclusive where eastern religions tend to be inclusive. 

The west sees a major separation from religion and all else where the east does not. So if you are looking for Spirituality (by your definition, if I understand it correctly, not my definition) it may be because as far as that teacher is concerned there is no need to discuss it separate from martial arts, they are the same thing. 



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Tai Chi is undoubtedly the exception to the rule. Most schools I have been a part of shy away from spirituality because instructors simply wouldn't know where to begin. This failure to even broach the subject has been inherent in their own training and probably their instructor's before them. My point is that somewhere in the history of most arts, the founder's verve for the "holistic" art [being physical AND spiritual] has either been willfully dumped or merely not understood. From then on, the focus has been on training us to be punching machines and not thinking fighters. As I say, Tai Chi is a notable exception to this lack of spiritual aspects.


 
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make about Tai Chi, it also could be I was not clear, or maybe I'm missing your point. I have never had a discussion of spirituality with any of my teachers. I have however begun referring to Tai Chi as the "Tai Chi dance and crystal show". The number of people coming to class that want to discuss new age ideas, Christianity and those misunderstanding or fearing any sort of Eastern philosophy are alarming and killing the art. 

They see signs of respect as religious teachings, and they are nothing but signs of respect. 

Many do not know that Tai Chi origins are Taoist, (and I suppose if this is a spiritual discussion my teachers have said that). I believe this is where the problem occurs with all martial arts. The people going to the class lack the understanding of it, and have their own belief system before they get there. And instead of trying to understand the martial art and its philosophy, they attempt to make the martial art fit their beliefs. 

Many of these people do not know Tai Chi is a martial art and absolutely refuse to accept is as such. Most unfortunately there are more of them than Martial artists in Tai Chi so many Tai Chi teachers give in to the pressure and stop teaching martial arts. This, by the way, is happening in China as well, but without the spiritual bits, they just want to relax and exercise. 

Most unfortunately today you will find more people teaching Tai Chi as more of a moving yoga than as a martial art. 

As for your definition of spirituallity, when I train very hard, and for internal MA this involves the form, application and Qi Gong training I can get a rather strong sense of what is around me and of myself. I, as I imagine is obvious by now, do not call this spirituallity. I tend to follow 2 precepts here, (1) once you actually focus on it or name it, you loose it. (2) And, What is, is. 



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> No, I'm not referring to you specifically, I'm simply attempting to open the discussion as wide as I can.


Nor was I specifically referring to you, although I did use the word you". I was referring to anyone that does this.



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Well, I've never even traveled to Shaolin and you know, for me, it's a very pessimistic and lowly attitude to think that [cf. my earlier Mr. Miyagi point] that us non-icons such as the ones you have mentioned, could never reach a level of personal enlightenment. I for one, think I'm well on the path to my own enlightment and self-knowledge through my art. And good luck to me!


 
I am not telling you enlightenment is not possible for you, me, or anyone. I am saying that many who claim it don't have it. And that to attain enlightenment is a very very difficult path to follow and most of us are not able to get there (to many demands on us in our day to day lives). 

But then again I suspect we are running smack into another semantics issue and I do not like arguing semantics.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> is that the discipline necessary to effectively and dilligently practice the art can be useful in the study, meditation, and prayers of a practicing Buddhist. I just couldn't find much beyond that.


 
As was Shaolin Kung Fu I believe. 



			
				Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I think there is a lot of truth in the notion that spirituality is forced on the martial arts thru an inappropriate western perspective, and it just doesn't fit the way we want it to. We try to cram a square peg into a round hole.


 
Exactly, this is what I was trying to say in 10,000 words or less and you got it in less than 50.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Thanks for the free quote - I liked it so much, you might see that on my sig, especially since you've granted me unlimited usage... ;¬)
> 
> Respects!


 
Did I say unlimited?  *scroll scroll*


----------



## MartialIntent

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I meant to comment on this in my prior post, but forgot.
> 
> I think being a deep thinker in one's art is not necessarily the same as being spiritual. I would hope that everyone thinks deeply, even meditatively, about the art that they practice. But I just don't see this as spiritual.


Many thanks for your insight! My experience has been a diagonal opposite to yours in that I seldom encounter "everyday" students who think deeply about their art. And the reason? Because no one has ever suggested to them that their art is anything more than a vehicle for physical talents.

I think this is a tragedy for the art because in seeing it in such one-dimensional terms, practitioners are failing to reap the full harvest of their dedicated efforts.

I'm not suggesting that thinking deeply equates to spirituality, what I'm getting at is that thinking about how you practise your art, what you can do within your art and how you act and react by diligent practise of your art can point you towards your own *personal* spirituality ie. who you are as a an individual.

I really am desperately trying to get away from this notion that spirituality and religion are somehow intertwined. I fully understand _for many_ that is the case but it in NO WAY necessarily *needs* to be the case.

I have not one iota of religion in me [in the organised, orthodox, indoctrinated sense]. But yet I feel that over the years, I have at least reaching the foothills of the mountain of spirituality.

Respects!


----------



## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> The west sees a major separation from religion and all else where the east does not. So if you are looking for Spirituality (by your definition, if I understand it correctly, not my definition) it may be because as far as that teacher is concerned there is no need to discuss it separate from martial arts, they are the same thing.


I don't think the inplication [at least here in the UK] is that the very practise of the martial art is _inclusive_ of the spiritual aspects. I think the onus is always on the student to further their own knowledge independently. In my experience, it is not the case that the instructor treats understanding of the spiritual side of the art as a given. The reality is more like sweeping it under the dojo mats and leaving those practitioners who are interested in the "thinking" side of the art to their own devices. For many schools, a visitor would be hard-pushed to see ANY indication of a spiritual side to an art.



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Many do not know that Tai Chi origins are Taoist, (and I suppose if this is a spiritual discussion my teachers have said that). I believe this is where the problem occurs with all martial arts. The people going to the class lack the understanding of it, and have their own belief system before they get there. And instead of trying to understand the martial art and its philosophy, they attempt to make the martial art fit their beliefs.


This is the crux of the problem right here. Whilst I understand that Tai Chi has an orthodox religious background borne out of Taoist traditions [and there are many, many others with a similar religious heritage] I think this is entirely missing my point. I've made that point above but to reiterate, religion and the sort of personal enlightenment / spirituality that I'm talking about are NOT the same thing at all. And while for many, religion is an inherent part of their martial spirituality, there is NO REQUIREMENT for it to be so.

And this comes back to an earlier point - that of forcing ones religious viewpoint on a student - which I think is completely inexcusable. 

No, what I'm advocating is more of a discussion on how focussed, disciplined practise of ones art can give one a greater understanding of oneself, ones nature, ones purpose.

Respects!


----------



## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I don't think the inplication [at least here in the UK] is that the very practise of the martial art is inclusive of the spiritual aspects. I think the onus is always on the student to further their own knowledge independently. In my experience, it is not the case that the instructor treats understanding of the spiritual side of the art as a given. The reality is more like sweeping it under the dojo mats and leaving those practitioners who are interested in the "thinking" side of the art to their own devices. For many schools, a visitor would be hard-pushed to see ANY indication of a spiritual side to an art.
> 
> 
> This is the crux of the problem right here. Whilst I understand that Tai Chi has an orthodox religious background borne out of Taoist traditions [and there are many, many others with a similar religious heritage] I think this is entirely missing my point. I've made that point above but to reiterate, religion and the sort of personal enlightenment / spirituality that I'm talking about are NOT the same thing at all. And while for many, religion is an inherent part of their martial spirituality, there is NO REQUIREMENT for it to be so.
> 
> And this comes back to an earlier point - that of forcing ones religious viewpoint on a student - which I think is completely inexcusable.
> 
> No, what I'm advocating is more of a discussion on how focussed, disciplined practise of ones art can give one a greater understanding of oneself, ones nature, ones purpose.
> 
> Respects!



First as I previously stated it depends on where your teacher was trained an who he/she was trained by. All of my teachers have come from China, Korea or were trained in Japan. Spirituality, by the definition I think you are using, is not discussed because it is taken for granted as being the same thing as training martial arts. And to be honest at this point, I have to say, I am really not sure what your definition is or what you are looking for. I thought I had it, but apparently I do not. 

You have also demonstrated the very miss understanding of the problem I am talking about in reference to Tai Chi. Tai Chi coming from a Taoist as do other Martial Arts. They do not come from a the Taoist Religion. Taoism was a philosophy long before it was a religion as were most Eastern Religions. There are no Taoist rituals in any classical Chinese martial art that came from Taoism, as far as I know. But I can see a lot of parallels to Taoist Philosophy. I have studied a lot of Taoist Philosophy in order to better understand Tai Chi, but I have never felt it was the duty of my Sifu to teach me any of it. 

And for that matter Shaolin which has a root in Chan Buddhism has no Buddhist rituals in it either. Shaolin martial arts were made to assist the monk in strengthening his body so he could endure the long hour of mediation for spiritual development. Not spiritual development that comes from the study of Shaolin Kung fu. 

This is the miss understanding of the west that causes the problems that currently exist in Martial Arts. Eastern martial arts are based on philosophy NOT religion. You study Aikido; if your teacher does not give you what you are looking for find another teacher. From what I understand about Aikido, Ki development is part of it and that, to me, might be the spirituality you are looking for.

I have generally been very impressed by the sense of calm I get from most Aikido people I have meant. There have been a few that I did not get that from and upon further investigation I found their teacher was lacking. But that is for them to discover, not for me to tell them. 

My first Tai Chi Teacher knew only form and did not know anything of the internal side, so I found another teacher. My second teacher, although very knowledgeable was simply to far away and I luckily found my third teacher who is also very knowledgeable. However my third teacher has recently begun to given in to the pressure of the &#8220;Tai Chi Health dance and crystal show&#8221; people and appears to be no longer training any of the martial aspect. The new people are big on Qi Gong, Health and Pseudo-Spirituality. So I will be going back to my second teacher, and starting from the beginning again (his lineage is different within the same family style), and looking for a 4th teacher in China ( I am there once a year).  I have been speaking only of Tai Chi; I have done and am doing the same thing for Xingyi.

If your teacher does not give you what you are looking for it is not the fault of the teacher if you stay. Leave, find another teacher, if there are no other teachers of your art near you, maybe you should look for another art to pursue. Or look to another teacher in another place. If you have a good base I believe it is better to meet with a very good teacher once or twice a year than a bad teacher everyday.

If you study only aikido, and maybe you study more, you cannot judge all martial arts lack of what you are calling spirituality. I have meant and talked to a few Chinese masters that are incredibly talented and very good at what they do, I am willing to bet if you ask them about whatever it is you are referring to as spirituality they would discuss it with you, but they feel no need to teach it to you, they teach you martial arts, the rest comes from the students commitment to that art. I believe the same would apply to any well trained Martial arts teacher.


----------



## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> If your teacher does not give you what you are looking for it is not the fault of the teacher if you stay. Leave, find another teacher,


Why should I have left and find another teacher? That's a quitting attitude; a last resort. I respect all my previous teachers for the knowledge and experience they have bestowed upon me and though it may be conceit, I feel I brought something to them [as my students bring something to me]. But by the same token I also wish for more; although I have many years of experience I always desire more knowledge. 

As an analogy, if I eat at a my favorite classy restaurant and they forget my desert, do I walk out? If I attend a nice bar and they are not familiar with a certain cocktail, do I walk away? Likewise, if a student suggests to a teacher that the teacher might consider discussion / direction / mentoring on a certain subject, you're telling me you would recommend the teacher advise the student to seek another school? Hmmmm...



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> If you study only aikido, and maybe you study more, you cannot judge all martial arts lack of what you are calling spirituality.


Sir, I neither judge nor cast aspersions on any particular arts [let alone ALL of them]. I respect ALL arts as none are without merit so kindly do not paraphrase my post in that way. I am simply commenting on my personal observation from my own experience with various arts and my extensive travels around various schools, that the spirituality is lacking.

Thank you for your input though alas my impression from the tone of your posts is that we cannot even agree to disagree... This would be unfortunate.

Respects!


----------



## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Why should I have left and find another teacher? That's a quitting attitude; a last resort. I respect all my previous teachers for the knowledge and experience they have bestowed upon me and though it may be conceit, I feel I brought something to them [as my students bring something to me]. But by the same token I also wish for more; although I have many years of experience I always desire more knowledge.
> 
> As an analogy, if I eat at a my favorite classy restaurant and they forget my desert, do I walk out? If I attend a nice bar and they are not familiar with a certain cocktail, do I walk away? Likewise, if a student suggests to a teacher that the teacher might consider discussion / direction / mentoring on a certain subject, you're telling me you would recommend the teacher advise the student to seek another school? Hmmmm... !


 
I am not suggesting quitting, unless you are unhappy, which I get the impression you are. If you are happy with your present teacher then what is the spiritually issue about?

Interesting analogy, but what I am saying and what I think was said by you before was that martial arts teachers are not willing to discuss spirituality. 

As for your analogy it would be more correct, based on what I am saying, and what I think you are saying about the lack of spirituality to put it this way.

If I eat at my favorite classy restaurant and they refuse to give me my desert, do I walk out? Yes

 If I attend a nice bar and they do not give me the cocktail I am looking for do I walk away? Yes

As for the quitter attitude I think you may have accused me of having. I still feel that if I am going to a teacher that cannot teach me, why go to that teacher. If I am going to a teacher that was originally staying true to that art but has changed to something other than what is true in order to gain more students and make money and ignore his senior students to do so. And who has after repeated conversations says he was aware of this and would change and at every change it gets worse. And after not being taught anything after 2 years. Why would I stay and stagnate, forget what I have been taught in order to assist teaching people in what I believe is the exact thing that is killing the art? 

Leaving this teacher is not easy, please do not make light of it and label me a quitter. I owe a lot to my sifu and I have tried time and time again to over look the changes and try to help and get thing back to something close to what they use to be. Where there were once 7 senior students there are now 3. I am not alone in my thoughts on this issue. 



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Sir, I neither judge nor cast aspersions on any particular arts [let alone ALL of them]. I respect ALL arts as none are without merit so kindly do not paraphrase my post in that way. I am simply commenting on my personal observation from my own experience with various arts and my extensive travels around various schools, that the spirituality is lacking.
> 
> Thank you for your input though alas my impression from the tone of your posts is that we cannot even agree to disagree... This would be unfortunate.
> 
> Respects!


 
I did not intend to paraphrase I was attempting to understand and respond. 

And if that is an issue we are both guilty of things here. You are also picking a choosing what to respond to, but I do not make issue of it. 

As for the tone of my posts, there is no tone, I am not angry, I am not upset; I am responding, discussing and attempting to understand. However I am not, from what I can tell, agreeing with you and possibly that is the problem. 

I however do not see this as a confrontation nor, as I previously posted, do I truly think we are that far off from agreeing, I still think it is a semantics issue. 

I would like to hear what you are defining spirituality as; it is possible that I simply do not use the word in the same way. 



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Unfortunately nowadays, it seems this spirituality often stops at the scroll at the dojo door or on the homepage of the official website and many schools appear to pay only lip service to the spiritual aspects of their art.
> Personally I see this as a tragedy because I feel that not just some [the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.] but *all* martial arts are capable of providing us with great spirituality and self-enlightenment through disciplined personal practise of the physical aspects alone.
> 
> I know spirituality is an innately personal thing but I'm saddened by both the lack even of direction given - or often even mention made of - sprituality in the schools I've visited and also in the shortfall of consideration given to this wonderful aspect of our martial arts [particularly in these days where we're constantly media-thrashed with the whips of "religion"]


 
Upon rereading what you originally said I can see that you did not reference all schools but only the schools you have visited. And I apologize for the paraphrase that has upset you. 

But I got the impression from your statements in your previous posts that you were unhappy with the fact that your teacher or for that matter many teachers did not discuss spirituality. And if a teacher is not giving you what you need then why would one stay with that teacher?

I will, if you desire remove myself from this post.


----------



## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I will, if you desire remove myself from this post.


Not at all! Sir, although we differ, your viewpoints are welcome [and insightful from the world of Tai Chi]. Evidently though, my aptitude for translating an ethereal concept into the nuts and bolts is failing me!

Good luck and respects!


----------



## TigerWoman

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> Having positive life skills gives you purpose and makes you sure of your actions. Negative vibes put you in situations where you know your actions may not be approprate and that makes you unsure of yourself. The Kenpo system places courage as key. If you think about it it takes a lot less courage to do the right thing.
> Sean



I disagree with that last sentence.  I think some things take alot of courage particularly when to make such a stand results in negative consequences to you and the ones you love.  It is also the test of integrity whether you have that courage to do the right thing. I think everyone knows what is the right thing, our conscience tells us. Maybe that is God telling us through our conscience.  Easy tests of integrity are like saying yes, I took the last donut.  Hard is telling the truth in support of a co-worker who has a family and needs the job, against the wishes of a relative boss, which results eventually in the relative's dismissal. Negative results: resigned the job and forever out of that part of the family no matter how Christian they espouse to be.  You just have to pick your battles carefully. I battled my instructor/master and its been nothing but a headache for me, still. TW


----------



## Rich Parsons

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Many arts today profess a certain spirituality as part of their core philosophy - often coming directly from the enlightened ways of the founding fathers of the art [from Ueshiba to Parker and many others].



And what of those arts that do not profess spirituality or some thing like it?



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Unfortunately nowadays, it seems this spirituality often stops at the scroll at the dojo door or on the homepage of the official website and many schools appear to pay only _lip service_ to the spiritual aspects of their art.



If the art has none, from the beginning, does that make it less so?



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Personally I see this as a tragedy because I feel that not just some [the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.] but **all** martial arts are capable of providing us with great spirituality and self-enlightenment through disciplined personal practise of the physical aspects alone.



I can self enlightenment, for one can find peace and enjoyment in the motions of the art. One can use the skills and dedication to help thier life in development. Why must it be Spirituality?



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I know spirituality is an innately _personal_ thing but I'm saddened by both the lack even of direction given - or often even mention made of - sprituality in the schools I've visited and also in the shortfall of consideration given to this wonderful aspect of our martial arts [particularly in these days where we're constantly media-thrashed with the whips of "religion"]



As you stated spirituality is a personal thing or issue. Could it not be jsut that Personal? Could you not be expected to search this on your own? This way you do not force students to leave your school or place of study, becuase they may have a difference of opinion in spirituality. 



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to hear from you all: where on the spirituality scale do you see your art *as you practise it*?
> 
> Respects!



Balintawak a FMA has zero Spirituality. It can have self-enlightenment as I mentioned above, as well as those who struggle to learn and continue when they have problems.


----------



## MartialIntent

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> And what of those arts that do not profess spirituality or some thing like it?


Firstly, thank you for your input! I'd say good luck to those arts that don't profess a spiritual side. Every art is different, every art is equally valid. And how a school practises their variant of the art is for them alone. I have no issue with that. No, my concern is with those arts who are more than happy to have "Spirituality Practised Here" as a <META> tag on their websites or in their mission statements but when it comes to walking the walk as it were, seem a little less vociferous and a little more reticent about what sort of spiritual mentoring / direction they might provide to those students who express an interest.

I'd cite two methods to clarify a school's position in respect of their spiritual sides - 1). *Disavow spirituality *altogether and stake no claim in respect of it's practise... At least that is honest, upfront and potential and existing students know what to expect and that independent study will be necessary if they wish to discover more. Or 2). *Follow through* on the spirituality claim: educate, research, gently direct and mentor students who are interested in furthering their knowledge and practise of the spiritual aspects of the art.

This leads me to another earlier point. I wouldn't necessarily be as black-and-white about saying a school's art does or does not have a spiritual side [I think it's more of a series of greys] as I truly feel that ALL arts and all schools have a capacity which allow ANY of their practitioners to become spiritually aware, more self-knowledgeable and yes, _enlightened_ through practise and application of purely the physical side.

I believe there's a subconscious image many of us have of the only truly spiritual martial artist being that fellow who stands atop the mountain breathing in rays of sun through the cap of his head - or - the berry-eating nomad [Kane in Kung Fu]. And whilst these practices may certainly inspire one to be spiritual at that level, it's not what we are in the west at least for the most part. 

No, I think diligent physical practise by us grass-roots martial artists is sufficient if done in the spirit of self-discovery to uncover a personal enlightment and deeper awareness of the art, why we practise it, who we are as practitioners and what we can do within the framework of our art. This is my _personal_ definition of spirituality and enlightment.



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> for one can find peace and enjoyment in the motions of the art. One can use the skills and dedication to help thier life in development. Why must it be Spirituality?


Firstly, this is beautifully stated! Thank you! Being such a personal set of feelings, spirituality is entirely subject to interpretation and consequently has many manifestations. And of course there is *no requirement whatsoever* for one to label this as spirituality should one have no desire to do so. My point is that many practitioners who *do* seek spirituality and enlightenment often are given no encouragement or mentoring to tell them that what they are already doing through enjoying dynamic physicality in their art *IS* spirituality by any other name.

I hope this makes a modicum of sense.

Respects!


----------



## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Not at all! Sir, although we differ, your viewpoints are welcome [and insightful from the world of Tai Chi]. Evidently though, my aptitude for translating an ethereal concept into the nuts and bolts is failing me!
> Good luck and respects!


 
You are an honorable person, respects to you as well.



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> No, my concern is with those arts who are more than happy to have "Spirituality Practised Here" as a <META> tag on their websites or in their mission statements but when it comes to walking the walk as it were, seem a little less vociferous and a little more reticent about what sort of spiritual mentoring / direction they might provide to those students who express an interest.


 
This is dishonest advertising the same as a flashing sign to gain ones attention, or in this case to gain more students. And in this case I would have to agree with you



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I'd cite two methods to clarify a school's position in respect of their spiritual sides - 1). Disavow spirituality altogether and stake no claim in respect of it's practise... At least that is honest, upfront and potential and existing students know what to expect and that independent study will be necessary if they wish to discover more. Or 2). Follow through on the spirituality claim: educate, research, gently direct and mentor students who are interested in furthering their knowledge and practise of the spiritual aspects of the art.


 
I would still have to say here that choice 1 is the more honest of the 2. I still do not feel it is up to the teacher of any style to teach "Spirituality". Plus I still maintain that many traditional Martial arts teacher simply do not see the 2 as different things. They train you martial arts and it is though that training that you gain the deeper understanding. It is still in my opinion up to the student



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I believe there's a subconscious image many of us have of the only truly spiritual martial artist being that fellow who stands atop the mountain breathing in rays of sun through the cap of his head - or - the berry-eating nomad [Kane in Kung Fu]. And whilst these practices may certainly inspire one to be spiritual at that level, it's not what we are in the west at least for the most part.


 
I know many of the new age Tai Chi people think this. I have seen them revere a teacher in a way I think can be a bit scary. This is just another area where I have a problem with the whole spiritual/religious thing in martial arts.

And as a side note, I have talked with many Chinese people, Chinese martial artists and I have even heard a Shaolin Monk speak and none of them talk like David Carradine (Kane) in Kung fu. 

But you are correct this is the perception many people apparently have of martial arts today. Which is also another area that I think their brand of spirituality is destroying many a martial art today.



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> No, I think diligent physical practice by us grass-roots martial artists is sufficient if done in the spirit of self-discovery to uncover a personal enlightenment and deeper awareness of the art, why we practice it, which we are as practitioners and what we can do within the framework of our art. This is my personal definition of spirituality and enlightment.


 
Is this "The nuts and bolts"?

This I can agree with, but I would not call it spirituality, I just call understanding. 

A short story; I have a friend who has studied Aikido and Karate. He is very good at his chosen martial arts, he is, for all intensive purposes the one of the best at Karate I have ever seen. But he has stagnated and has stopped training all together, he is unable to go further or advance in anyway. I have attributed this to the fact that he absolutely refuses to do any internal work at all. No stance training, no Qi, or in his case, Ki training. He absolutely refuses to believe it can help in any way....He equates this to religion and he is fairly anti-religious. 

If for no other reason the internal would help him relax and thereby potentially give him the improvement that he is searching for. And despite my attempts to show this is not religious, he refuses to change his position. As far as I can tell he no longer trains any martial arts at all, and based on his skill up to this point, I can say this is a great loss to martial arts in general. OK it was a long story.



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> And of course there is no requirement whatsoever for one to label this as spirituality should one have no desire to do so.


 
Thank You, I think we are reaching agreement here. Or at least the agree to disagree stage if you like. 



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> My point is that many practitioners who *do* seek spirituality and enlightenment often are given no encouragement or mentoring to tell them that what they are already doing through enjoying dynamic physicality in their art *IS* spirituality by any other name.


 
I truly have no problem with this, I fully believe: if it makes you happy and doesn't hurt others than great.

If you call it a lift and I call it an elevator, big deal. You call it spirituality and I call it understanding, it makes no difference.

My problem begins with those that force their brand of religion on a martial art where either none exists or they do not understand what it already there (and it is not religion) or fear what they perceive to be a "Eastern" "non-Christian" type of training that of course must be evil, it is non-Christian. When in reality what they fear is not there in the first place.

And with Tai Chi, Qi Gong and I am beginning to fear Bagua might be next. The influx of the New age religious (Tai Chi dance and crystal show) set that are for all intensive purposes destroying the martial arts as we know them. And by the way I have talked with some people here that are in Aikido that would fall into the same group. 

However, I am not saying nor do I not consider you one of these people. But this is why I have such a problem with the word spirituality being applied to martial arts.


----------



## ed-swckf

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Do you find though, if you *did* chose to dig deeper into the spiritual side of your art, that there'd be any help at your school to do so? I know in my experience that's seldom the case.
> 
> I'm interested to know!


 
Well what help could they offer, aside from being welcoming of a personal choice someone makes?  I mean to say that any help that is offered would be equal to the help offered to those who choose not to pursue the spiritual side.  And people have different takes on sprituality and so apart from being welcoming to people of different spititual beliefs to do much more would become inpractical.  

And when you look at the alleged history of my art it has pretty much been passed on without a huge amount of spiritual expression and it simply has roots in buddhism.  Many people have incorperated taoism, buddhism and confucianism into the thinking behind wing chun and now as the art has spread into the western world people are associating christianity and other western beliefs with it.  Personally i would prefer not to look into christianity but as time goes on people from all faiths and spiritual backgrounds will come into contact with wing chun and maybe their personal approach to wing chun will incorperate some of their personal faith just as what has already come to pass.  And so the spiritual side of it will remain a personal choice and the goal of teaching the art is not to concentrate one particular spiritual path but to be open to all walks of life.  

The best pollicy is to offer an open freindly environment in which to learn the art from someone who knows their stuff.  I feel that if you wished to learn more about spirituality you should also ensure you go learn from someone who knows their stuff or travel your own path rather than expect spiritual teaching from your teacher.

All that said my teacher is always there to offer advice and is very helpful in other matters that aren't directly wing chun related, if you have a problem or issue he will help and he will also give you a lot of oppertunity in helping you think for yourself.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Personally i would prefer not to look into christianity but as time goes on people from all faiths and spiritual backgrounds will come into contact with wing chun and maybe their personal approach to wing chun will incorperate some of their personal faith just as what has already come to pass.


 
Just to go off the subject slightly for one post.

One of the scariest martial arts schools I have seen in recent years was a Christian Wing Chun School, the whole thing had the feel of a cult. It has now changed to a Christian pseudo-police combat training school which has absolutely no police as members.

Ok I'm done.


----------



## Rich Parsons

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Firstly, this is beautifully stated! Thank you! Being such a personal set of feelings, spirituality is entirely subject to interpretation and consequently has many manifestations. And of course there is *no requirement whatsoever* for one to label this as spirituality should one have no desire to do so. My point is that many practitioners who *do* seek spirituality and enlightenment often are given no encouragement or mentoring to tell them that what they are already doing through enjoying dynamic physicality in their art *IS* spirituality by any other name.
> 
> I hope this makes a modicum of sense.
> 
> Respects!



Now you have me worried or scared because I never state anything beautifully. 

Thank you for the reply.


----------



## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I would still have to say here that choice 1 is the more honest of the 2. I still do not feel it is up to the teacher of any style to teach "Spirituality". Plus I still maintain that many traditional Martial arts teacher simply do not see the 2 as different things. They train you martial arts and it is though that training that you gain the deeper understanding. It is still in my opinion up to the student


Actually, now that I consider your meaning, I think we may actually be arriving at a common conclusion from different angles.

Firstly, you are certainly correct insofar as NO ONE can *teach* an individual spirituality except themselves. To *teach* spirituality is a contradiction in terms. I've attempted not to use the word teach [though I may have been remiss]. But how I've tried to explain that instead is that students can be _directed_ or _mentored_ - should they so wish - in at least seeing that what they do as they progress through their training *is* actually spirituality [again my personal definition].

And it's spirituality because it provides insight into our own workings, our own motivations and our own strengths and limits. This for me is personal enlightenment and it can be achieved through purely physical practise and application of the art.

Respects!


----------



## MartialIntent

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> And when you look at the alleged history of my art it has pretty much been passed on without a huge amount of spiritual expression and it simply has roots in buddhism. Many people have incorperated taoism, buddhism and confucianism into the thinking behind wing chun and now as the art has spread into the western world people are associating christianity and other western beliefs with it.


I agree, there's too much confusion between orthodox religions and personal spirituality in the arts. And I know of many students who seek a deeper understanding of spirituality in their art and yet have no desire for communion with any of the major religions. This is my own position also.


			
				ed-swckf said:
			
		

> And so the spiritual side of it will remain a personal choice and the goal of teaching the art is not to concentrate one particular spiritual path but to be open to all walks of life.


Exactly. Spirituality is system of beliefs that is an incredibly personal experience. Each of us has our own spirituality and each is as beautiful as the other in a way unique to the practitioner. We should be entirely at liberty to walk whichever spiritual path we see fit [or none at all for that matter]. By the same token though, many new or inexperienced students *do* have an enthusiasm to develop this aspect of the art but yet have no point of reference because of schools' reluctance to raise the issue within the practise or syllabus or simply because of instructors' inexperience of mentoring the subject.


			
				ed-swckf said:
			
		

> The best pollicy is to offer an open freindly environment in which to learn the art from someone who knows their stuff. I feel that if you wished to learn more about spirituality you should also ensure you go learn from someone who knows their stuff or travel your own path rather than expect spiritual teaching from your teacher.


I would be hoping that that person who "knows their stuff" _*would* _be my instructor. This is my point, that those who do seek a greater understanding of spirituality in their art are forced off onto the internet or somewhere out of the school to carry on their research independently because in many cases schools even feel it would be "inappropriate" to raise the subject within the confines of the dojo. This for me is unfortunate. There's room for change though.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Respects!


----------



## MartialIntent

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Now you have me worried or scared because I never state anything beautifully.
> 
> Thank you for the reply.


I mean, you've hit the nail on the head right there. I think there's a spirituality in all of us whether we choose to name it that or not. And of course our personal spirituality is a beautiful thing springing from which is much creativity. My sense is that often we simply don't have the time, inclination or more pertinently, encouragement to think on it as part of our art. For all that - it's still there within us!

But yeah, the point that you made so well is that one just practises one's art and simply enjoys the physicality of it and to that end, *it really matters not* whether we see that as spirituality, tap the gong and make a bid hoo-hah about it. But my point is that for those who wish to further develop that "spirituality" and sense of personal enlightenment achieved through their martial aptitudes, often there's nowhere to turn for help or advice. Schools are often entirely focussed on the nitty gritty of techniques that will help us escape a wrist lock while missing the point that while we're engaged in that pursuit, we may actually be learning about ourselves, our adaptability, our quick-thinking, our coordination, our courage, our respect and a myriad other things that point us on the path to spirituality and enlightment.

Respects!


----------



## Rich Parsons

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I mean, you've hit the nail on the head right there. I think there's a spirituality in all of us whether we choose to name it that or not. And of course our personal spirituality is a beautiful thing springing from which is much creativity. My sense is that often we simply don't have the time, inclination or more pertinently, encouragement to think on it as part of our art. For all that - it's still there within us!
> 
> But yeah, the point that you made so well is that one just practises one's art and simply enjoys the physicality of it and to that end, *it really matters not* whether we see that as spirituality, tap the gong and make a bid hoo-hah about it. But my point is that for those who wish to further develop that "spirituality" and sense of personal enlightenment achieved through their martial aptitudes, often there's nowhere to turn for help or advice. Schools are often entirely focussed on the nitty gritty of techniques that will help us escape a wrist lock while missing the point that while we're engaged in that pursuit, we may actually be learning about ourselves, our adaptability, our quick-thinking, our coordination, our courage, our respect and a myriad other things that point us on the path to spirituality and enlightment.
> 
> Respects!



Well in the States,  with the exception of some Christian schools, any school that pushes Spirituality is almost always considered a cult. Now this is a cultural thing here. 

Just curious if it could be the same in Europe as well?


----------



## MartialIntent

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Well in the States, with the exception of some Christian schools, any school that pushes Spirituality is almost always considered a cult. Now this is a cultural thing here.
> 
> Just curious if it could be the same in Europe as well?


It certainly would. I for one would wish no part in a school that "pushes" anything. I'm not advocating that though, I'm simply talking about your normal everyday school, students going about their techs and practise and a student thinks "Hey, I been thinking over the spiritual side of my practise", she asks her instructor for direction and finds the instructor can only provide a "grid-reference" rather than travelling on any part of the journey with her. I hope that analogy works  

The point was made upthread that were a student to enquire in this way, it would be expected that the instructor would more than likely know of a excellent book on the subject - my response is that if one of your students asks for a technique walkthrough [at the end of class say] would you direct them maybe onto the internet? Nope, you'd wipe the sweat off your palms, grab the sticks and go at it until you were sure the student was confident enough to go off and practise independently.

I think this is what's missing.

Respects!


----------



## Touch Of Death

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I disagree with that last sentence. I think some things take alot of courage particularly when to make such a stand results in negative consequences to you and the ones you love. It is also the test of integrity whether you have that courage to do the right thing. I think everyone knows what is the right thing, our conscience tells us. Maybe that is God telling us through our conscience. Easy tests of integrity are like saying yes, I took the last donut. Hard is telling the truth in support of a co-worker who has a family and needs the job, against the wishes of a relative boss, which results eventually in the relative's dismissal. Negative results: resigned the job and forever out of that part of the family no matter how Christian they espouse to be. You just have to pick your battles carefully. I battled my instructor/master and its been nothing but a headache for me, still. TW


If you will step away from the subjective for a second, the courage I am talking about is the basic ease in which you choose to do the right thing and do so because you cannot stomach the consequences of doing the wrong thing. As Dr. Laura would tell you. Two children from different households will make life descisions about fighting or taking drugs based on what they they were raised, what they see around them, positive role models. If the positives of taking that first hit, or throwing that first punch outweigh personal convictions one child just made a whole lotta new freinds and a key to a whole new world, another child found it easy to say no and with that found a key to the real world. Both kids did the easiest thing; however one was more rightious, or, more politicaly correct, one child had a better defined sense of what is right and wrong. I know you get faced with damned if you do and damned if you don't stuations, but you will ulimatly choose what you can live with and that is the easiest thing to do.
Sean


----------



## Rich Parsons

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> It certainly would. I for one would wish no part in a school that "pushes" anything. I'm not advocating that though, I'm simply talking about your normal everyday school, students going about their techs and practise and a student thinks "Hey, I been thinking over the spiritual side of my practise", she asks her instructor for direction and finds the instructor can only provide a "grid-reference" rather than travelling on any part of the journey with her. I hope that analogy works
> 
> The point was made upthread that were a student to enquire in this way, it would be expected that the instructor would more than likely know of a excellent book on the subject - my response is that if one of your students asks for a technique walkthrough [at the end of class say] would you direct them maybe onto the internet? Nope, you'd wipe the sweat off your palms, grab the sticks and go at it until you were sure the student was confident enough to go off and practise independently.
> 
> I think this is what's missing.
> 
> Respects!



Well I would recommend:

Suzanne White for a European/Western insight into Chinese Astrology. 

Benjamin Hoff - for the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet, and also his other book on Tigger (* I cannot remember the name sorry. *)

Nietzsche for other insights into the conscious and the unconscious, and in particular: Is the Unconscious conscious of the fact that the Conscious is Conscious of it? 

Then I would also recommend Heinlein for his stories about culture, for a different point of view on how things could be seen by someone. 

I would also recommend trying to study the culture through history and also warfare for this would dictate issues of rulership and types of government, as well as types of technology and maybe even philosphies of an era.


----------



## MartialIntent

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> If you will step away from the subjective for a second, the courage I am talking about is the basic ease in which you choose to do the right thing and do so because you cannot stomach the consequences of doing the wrong thing. As Dr. Laura would tell you. Two children from different households will make life descisions about fighting or taking drugs based on what they they were raised, what they see around them, positive role models. If the positives of taking that first hit, or throwing that first punch outweigh personal convictions one child just made a whole lotta new freinds and a key to a whole new world, another child found it easy to say no and with that found a key to the real world. Both kids did the easiest thing; however one was more rightious, or, more politicaly correct, one child had a better defined sense of what is right and wrong. I know you get faced with damned if you do and damned if you don't stuations, but you will ulimatly choose what you can live with and that is the easiest thing to do.
> Sean


 
This is an interesting sub-thread you guys have here... If I could weigh in with my $.02, I'd agree with the assertion that both kids in the above hypothetical did indeed take the course of action that came easiest to them based upon upbringings, environmentals etc. but at the same time there's an implication that the kid doing her first substance or throwing that first punch somehow has been "sheltered" from what is [to the majority of society] the "right" thing.

I know the circumstances in childrens' formative years largely dictate the overall shapes of their personalities and decision making skills but I think we have to assume that BOTH kids know what's right and what's not - and I've seen the contrary excuse used by slick lawyers in court to try to exhonerate kids accused of murder. This is something I abhor. No child grows up in a moral vacuum - though I appreciate some may have sever psychological damage as a result of often apalling situations [these are exceptional cases though]. And even for all that, I think we all have senses of right and wrong that despite our varied upbringings do in the end roughly correlate.

Therefore I'd say that in your above situation, the more "righteous" decision would have been if the kid who otherwise would have taken that hit / thrown that punch [that being her easiest option] was to have decided against that decision and refused / backed away. This would have been the more difficult path to walk and in which case TigerWoman's initial assertion that it's harder to do the right thing still stands as correct... 

Concerning the place from where our consciences derive - everyone has their own equally valid set of influencing factors and beliefs. For me [non-religious] I concur with Nietzsche in that ultimately the conscience is merely an affliction of a system of guilts. I think though in modern societies, our approximate agreement on vague concepts of right and wrong do suggest we're mostly singing from the same hymnsheet even if we're not all singing in the same key... 

What do you think?

Respects!


----------



## elder999

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to hear from you all: where on the spirituality scale do you see your art *as you practise it*?




Coming in kinda late here, but I couldn't resist.

The first problem I see is the way arts are practiced is our mass production, commercial societies. This is not normally conducive to spirituality, though it is not necessarily an impediment: people in the U.S. pay big bucks for all sorts of spiritual things.

The second problem, of course, is the customer-er, I mean, the _student_, who doesnt usually walk into the dojo/dojang/kwoon looking for spirituality, but to get into shape, or maybe to have fun, and/or learn to kick some ***.

I know thats how it was for me when I was 11-and can you guess which of those three was most important?

Of course, I was a big fan of _Kung Fu_ the TV series that was on at the time, and aware of spiritual aspects, but there wasnt a lot of that around.I started in Tae Kwon Do, and there wasn't anything "spiritual" about it at all, to me. While there was some sitting meditation in the Kyokushin dojo at the time, it wasnt very much, and the practice seems to have died off altogether over the years. There also really isnt too much of a spiritual aspect to Judo or Miyama ryu, unless one wants to call _ethics_ a spiritual aspect, and I think thats something thats added confusion to this discussion already. 

If one is familiar with the concept of a peak experience, and relates that to spirituality, though, then it's possible that any endeavor can be spiritual for the practitioner.....

Interestingly, Im the son, grandson and great-grandson of ministers, and actually earned a degree in religious studies before I became an engineer, and spent a fair amount of my teens and college years in practices like yoga and Zen meditation-specifically to supplement my martial arts training. 

At this point, Id like my students to become better _people_ from their training, not just good fighters and athletes. While some of them actually follow some of my own rather_rigorous_ spiritual practices, and one or two have even followed me into them (rather than the other way around, where people I already pray with came to my class) I certainly wouldnt push them on anyone (in fact, Ive discouraged people who were interested once or twice) and they arent necessary to martial practice. Other things are, though

So, while there are some spiritual practices to the way I teach, theyre somewhat tailored to American ways, as well as technologically viable in a martial context, and completely free of dogma or deity-while *I *believe in the Creator, and make no bones about it, I feel it is necessary to prevent conflict with others beliefs: Im not going to exclude Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus, and certainly dont want them to feel that these practices (including bowing)are antithetical to their religion-unless, of course, they are-in which case I probably dont want them for students. 

For beginning students, there is no meditation-as I said, thats not what most Americans walk into a dojo for, and its also not necessary for beginning practice. As it is, there is very little sitting at first, and a separate (optional) meditation class for seniors-and we start with counting breaths, as you might expect. Later in class practices deal with visualization, and fear/anger emotional response, even to the point of inducing those feelings. 

As far as ethics go-and there is so little of even that in so many dojo in this country-I can offer one example.Theres a vow that I borrowed and edited from one of my long ago teachers, and its the English part of our dojo kun (and how many dont even have a dojo kun or its equivalent?):

_Not to kill.Not to harm the harmless, and to protect the weak and innocent. Not to disgrace these arts, my teachers or myself._


----------



## MartialIntent

elder999 said:
			
		

> The first problem I see is the way arts are practiced is our mass production, commercial societies. This is not normally conducive to spirituality, though it is not necessarily an impediment: people in the U.S. pay big bucks for all sorts of spiritual things.


Yep, this is the one of the root causes to the issue that inspired the thread. I think much of the spiritual focus that was initially central to many of our arts at their inception has long since disappeared under pressure schools face to make the cash from income count. And while I understand no school operates out of pure altruism, such "laser-targeting" of the bottom line imHo has displaced a vital chunk of those arts in favor of - as you say below - the desire to _learn to kick some ***_. Yes, it's about giving the customer what they want but for me it's been at the expense of many of the core values [and I'd say spirituality] that often were so apparent when the art was released to the public domain.

I'd make one other point - there's no doubt some students simply want to kick ***, Period. Spirituality? Nope, not for me. But if posed another way, the numbers may change. The other phrasing being: have you a desire to become more self-knowledgeable? Or have you an interest in seeking your limits? Or would you like to see where you fit in the BIG picture? 

Fair enough, many will _still_ be happy to be punching machines [which some schools are wonderful at turning out]. Society is full of folk happy not to know anything, but that's another debate. My point is that spirituality and religion - or that image of Kane in Kung Fu - are often confused with each other and it's mostly to the detriment of a *practical spirituality* *that's for everyone* and not just the Zarathustra-type characters or others with otherworldly enlightenment. 



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> Of course, I was a big fan of Kung Fu the TV series that was on at the time, and aware of spiritual aspects, but there wasnt a lot of that around.I started in Tae Kwon Do, and there wasn't anything "spiritual" about it at all, to me. While there was some sitting meditation in the Kyokushin dojo at the time, it wasnt very much, and the practice seems to have died off altogether over the years. There also really isnt too much of a spiritual aspect to Judo or Miyama ryu, unless one wants to call ethics a spiritual aspect, and I think thats something thats added confusion to this discussion already.


While many arts may not claim an overtly spiritual aspect, that's not to say achieving a level of spiritual awareness for oneself through one's [non-spiritual] art is not possible. I maintain that diligent, constant practise of one's art [whatever the art] with a spirit of seeking knowledge of oneself can at the very least point a practitioner towards enlightenment. This is purely a personal definition of spirituality - everyone's is different. 



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> If one is familiar with the concept of a peak experience, and relates that to spirituality, though, then it's possible that any endeavor can be spiritual for the practitioner.....


This would roughly correlate to my definition. I mean I'm referring to a sense of deep knowledge of *oneself only* as opposed to universal concepts through Zen tenets of nothingness; or enlightenment only through years of enforced solitude in the Tibetan highlands; or through whipping oneself with branches or any of those rituals designed to create gnosis. As I said earlier, while these processes are certainly highly productive in generating desired states in the operator, often we're simply NOT those things here in the west and have little capacity, patience, time or inclination to enter those states. 

Unlocking the meaning of the universe in reality may just not be possible for most of us let's be honest, but that's not what this is about, it's about knowledge of the self first and foremost. Because without that knowledge of oneself, one has _less_ chance of gaining deep knowledge of the universe / our place in it etc. And to that end, I feel it is entirely possible for all of us who haven't yet mastered walking on coals, to become spiritually aware of ourselves.



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> At this point, Id like my students to become better people from their training, not just good fighters and athletes. While some of them actually follow some of my own ratherrigorous spiritual practices, and one or two have even followed me into them (rather than the other way around, where people I already pray with came to my class) I certainly wouldnt push them on anyone (in fact, Ive discouraged people who were interested once or twice) and they arent necessary to martial practice.


No arguement whatsoever from me!



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> So, while there are some spiritual practices to the way I teach, theyre somewhat tailored to American ways, as well as technologically viable in a martial context, and completely free of dogma or deity-while I believe in the Creator, and make no bones about it, I feel it is necessary to prevent conflict with others beliefs: Im not going to exclude Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus, and certainly dont want them to feel that these practices (including bowing)are antithetical to their religion-unless, of course, they are-in which case I probably dont want them for students.
> For beginning students, there is no meditation-as I said, thats not what most Americans walk into a dojo for, and its also not necessary for beginning practice. As it is, there is very little sitting at first, and a separate (optional) meditation class for seniors-and we start with counting breaths, as you might expect. Later in class practices deal with visualization, and fear/anger emotional response, even to the point of inducing those feelings.


It is highly evident that you operate a very progressive and I am certain, inspiritional school - and I wish you good fortune with your efforts. I entirely agree that a focus on the spiritual practices at the initial steps on a student's martial journey may not be the most expedient plan of progression - nor may it be what they themselves want but what I would say though is that in many schools that I have visited or casually enquired of, there is really no facility for mentoring those students [beginner or advanced] who DO seek the knowledge. Instructors often have an odd "freeze" response to questions on spirituality - instructors with decades of expertise in the art act suddenly as if they've never set a foot on the mat. This is the main issue I have trouble with, particularly if it's from a school which advertises itself as practising an art with a spiritual aspect.

Thank you for your insight, I would be interested if you have more to share.

Respects!


----------



## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> This would roughly correlate to my definition. I mean I'm referring to a sense of deep knowledge of *oneself only* as opposed to universal concepts through Zen tenets of nothingness; or enlightenment only through years of enforced solitude in the Tibetan highlands; or through whipping oneself with branches or any of those rituals designed to create gnosis. As I said earlier, while these processes are certainly highly productive in generating desired states in the operator, often we're simply NOT those things here in the west and have little capacity, patience, time or inclination to enter those states.


 
This brings up a good point about martial arts in the modern world. Although I do not think years of enforced solitude in the Tibetan highlands; or through whipping oneself with branches or any of those rituals designed to create gnosis belongs in the martial arts, similar things use to be part of martial arts training and in  order to make the martial arts kinder and gentler they were removed. It use to be that a student had to prove his dedication and desire to study with a specific master and when they were accepted they were still tested. And although it isn't whipping yourself with branches, standing in a horse stance for hours at a time for a  year or more could produce a similar effect.

I have talked to people who have trained Southern Crane style that as part of there training they were  Required to take a stance similar to a horse stance and get hit by a log. This is however to develop  External Qi, not what I would call Spirituality. And I am still uncomfortable with applying the word spirituality to martial arts

Also I once studied with a martial arts teacher from Taiwan that made the statement that he would never be as good as his sifu because all his sifu did 24 hours a day was Kung fu. His sifu lived away form people in the countryside and did only martial arts. Where the Sifu I was training with had gone to college for engineering, been an engineer, although he was strictly a martial arts person now, and he lived in the city. Although he was dedicated he would never be able to be as dedicated as his sifu. 

And with then there is the standardization, if you will, of many martial arts school chains, in order to gain more students they are simply selling a generic package that may only be similar to the origin in name only.
I read about am Okinawa Karate master that I am absolutely sure if he subjected his students to the training he subjected himself to he would have no students.

Basically since martial arts are becoming more of a commodity/business, the deeper more important parts of the training are vanishing because in reality most students may say they want a deeper understanding, few are willing to or able to commit the time and effort to it that is necessary to achieve.

I also know of a very good TKD instructor that closed his school because some of his students, without his permission, went and opened up a chain of TKD schools that literally were promising a black belt in a year. He became disgusted and left the area. This may also be contributing to the problem of lack of depth. The teachers that know it simply are not teaching because there are so few that truly want it.



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> It is highly evident that you operate a very progressive and I am certain, inspiritional
> school - and I wish you good fortune with your efforts. I entirely agree that a focus on the spiritual
> practices at the initial steps on a student's martial journey may not be the most expedient plan of
> progression - nor may it be what they themselves want but what I would say though is that in many schools
> that I have visited or casually enquired of, there is really no facility for mentoring those students
> [beginner or advanced] who DO seek the knowledge. Instructors often have an odd "freeze" response to
> questions on spirituality - instructors with decades of expertise in the art act suddenly as if they've never
> set a foot on the mat. This is the main issue I have trouble with, particularly if it's from a school which
> advertises itself as practising an art with a spiritual aspect.


 
Decades of experience mean nothing if that experience comes from bad or substandard training. Martial arts have been in the west for decades and the people that truly know the arts they profess to teach are few and far between. The measurement of time in a martial art and for that matter the belt someone holds no longer is a guarantee of mastery and understanding. Also the relationship between martial arts teacher and student has changed over the years. Many years ago many martial arts students looked upon their teacher as more of a father figure than a teacher. Remember there are 2 different words for teacher in Chinese Laoshi for Teacher and Sifu for martial arts teacher. I think more today are in reality laoshi

I can go to a martial arts school for years and be a "punching machine" and come out with 30 years experience and yet not know the true art. And then turn around and teach the same thing I learned.


----------



## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Basically since martial arts are becoming more of a commodity/business, the deeper more important parts of the training are vanishing because in reality most students may say they want a deeper understanding, few are willing to or able to commit the time and effort to it that is necessary to achieve.


I agree with a great many of your points. Let me if I might, pick up on just this one and perhaps direct the discussion in a different direction...

Whilst our definitions of spirituality differ, I concur with your point above that reaching any level of proficiency in one's knowledge not only of spirituality but of oneself takes time, discipline and commitment. I also agree that these are attributes that ultimately nowadays many do not have an aptitude for. 

So, saying that, my question to you [and _please_ anyone else who may be reading] is in twenty years time, will martial arts' only concern be striking / kicking / grappling with nothing substantial underlying or motivating the physical practices?

Personally, I fear that this is what's happening - that we're getting hugely proficient at generating production-line fighting machines [seen the movie "Universal Soldier" perhaps?] but not so great at schooling what I would term _*thinking fighters*_.

Respects!


----------



## ed-swckf

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Just to go off the subject slightly for one post.
> 
> One of the scariest martial arts schools I have seen in recent years was a ChristianWingChunSchool, the whole thing had the feel of a cult. It has now changed to a Christian pseudo-police combat training school which has absolutely no police as members.
> 
> Ok I'm done.


 
Thats awesome, does it still have the feel of a cult?  I would kind of wanna go and have a look but i don't want to gety sucked in to a ritual suicide pact?!


----------



## ed-swckf

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I agree, there's too much confusion between orthodox religions and personal spirituality in the arts. And I know of many students who seek a deeper understanding of spirituality in their art and yet have no desire for communion with any of the major religions. This is my own position also.


 
But its just that, personal spirituality, that you seek - is it not?



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Exactly. Spirituality is system of beliefs that is an incredibly personal experience. Each of us has our own spirituality and each is as beautiful as the other in a way unique to the practitioner. We should be entirely at liberty to walk whichever spiritual path we see fit [or none at all for that matter]. By the same token though, many new or inexperienced students *do* have an enthusiasm to develop this aspect of the art but yet have no point of reference because of schools' reluctance to raise the issue within the practise or syllabus or simply because of instructors' inexperience of mentoring the subject.


 
But the problem arises from the fact that the spirituality is indeed very personal so what reference can you give when its indeed so personal?  I mean it could often be met with contrasting views and that seems inpractical and a possible basis for politics.  It seems that any spiritual content would have to seem somewhat vauge in order to encompass all walks and perhaps it remains vauge enough that at times it just goes completely unoticed?   



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I would be hoping that that person who "knows their stuff" _*would* _be my instructor. This is my point, that those who do seek a greater understanding of spirituality in their art are forced off onto the internet or somewhere out of the school to carry on their research independently because in many cases schools even feel it would be "inappropriate" to raise the subject within the confines of the dojo. This for me is unfortunate. There's room for change though.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts.
> 
> Respects!


 
But you agree that people are free to believe what they wish and follow or indeed not follow their personal spiritual path so what sense would it make to make the sylabus lean toward a particular flavour of spirituality? when for many it wouldn't fit and feel more like they were being indoctrinated into some pre determined flavour of what spirituality should be.  Of course if the spirituality is indeed a core part of the training then sure they should address it unless they have set out not to do so from the outset, and in which case its down to a student to find a class that suits their needs.  But whilst most arts will address morality and attitude towards others a spiritual guru is not really what the training needs and if it was required by more people then surely there would be more schools offering that?  Maybe i'm wrong and maybe theres a way to be open in teaching toward all peoples insight of spirituality but i can't really see it unfortunately.


----------



## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> So, saying that, my question to you [and _please_ anyone else who may be reading] is in twenty years time, will martial arts' only concern be striking / kicking / grappling with nothing substantial underlying or motivating the physical practices?


 
Many of them I believe will go that route or loose the martial arts in favor of pseudo understanding or spirituality (I just cant get comfortable with the word spirituality applied to martial arts  sorry)

I do believe that martial arts in general are changing and in many cases that is not for the better.

I have seen it going in different directions. I have seen many of the harder external martial arts being taught by unqualified people. It is not uncommon to see an advertisement for Kung Fu and if you go to the school you find out it is basically karate and the instructor learned a Kung fu form once, many tai Chi classes are taught in the same manner. I do see feel as time goes on that there will be fewer and fewer actual people that know anything about the root of the art that they practice. And the internal arts, these I feel will go two different ways, Tai Chi is dying as a martial art and I am not certain anyone can do anything about it. Bagua could be next, it to can be trained as form only and it is pretty to watch. Xingyi, thats a harder sell, it shows too much power and is not as pretty and it looks dangerous, so it may be safe. Yiquan, a lot of hard internal work to start and then a lot of martial arts, and I believe no forms. So it may also be safe, but that one could go either way. 

I see many styles have no idea of the history or the deeper understanding that the masters of the old had. This, I feel is from different sources; Students that are not interested in long term commitment and want results now. Students that are more interested in who they can beat up. Teachers who are not qualified to actually teach the full art, due to lack of understanding. Teachers that may know the full art but would rather make money than stay true to the style. Teachers who are more interested in trophies for their school. 

But I also believe a major issue is the current ranking systems and the emphasis put on them. Not all martial artist are created equal and not all will be able to get there black belt, or any belt for that matter as quickly as the next guy, if at all. How many times do you hear this how long until I get my black belt? or How long till I am a master? and what constitutes a master, 1 stripe 2 stripes 5 stripes? 

I was once, many moons ago, a Taekwondo guy. I learned non-sport TKD and not that I see anything wrong with training sport TKD but I feel it has changed TKD from a very viable martial art into a sport good only for the ring. Gone are the close fighting techniques and the take downs and various strikes, In favor of high kicks and strikes for points. 

I see similar changes in Tai Chi, but not to much punching, too little. The Martial arts have been stripped away and all that is left is what many believe to be the spiritual side. But they do not really want to do the internal training, it takes to long, its too hard. They want to walk in learn the form do a little Qi Gong and BANG, enlightenment, all in less than a year.

But there are a few good ones left; I just got off the phone with a teacher of an internal style that starts all his internal classes with standing or posture training, because it is so important to the style. And it is, it is the basics the root and without that it is just a dance. But it is not easy, it is not pretty and it is not the actual form. So there are a few diehards left. But he has few students for this style and it is a hard sell to the public because it is hard. 

I see that I have rambled as usual and I hope that I answered your question form at least my point of view.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Thats awesome, does it still have the feel of a cult? I would kind of wanna go and have a look but i don't want to gety sucked in to a ritual suicide pact?!


 
All I can say, if you ever go there, don't drink the cool aide.

What is interesting is that it did start out innocently enough and it appeared to be a Christian teacher that was teaching Wing Chun and if you were interested in Christianity great if you only wanted Wing Chun that was great too. But somewhere it changed, drastically and for the worse. Now it is very scary and some sort of police tactic religious training academy. Which I imagine would be ok if it weren&#8217;t for the complete lack of police involvement.


----------



## MartialIntent

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> But its just that, personal spirituality, that you seek - is it not?


I am referring to personal spirituality that is correct. Any form of "communal" spirituality implies religion which personally neither concerns nor interests me in my martial practices.



			
				ed-swckf said:
			
		

> But the problem arises from the fact that the spirituality is indeed very personal so what reference can you give when its indeed so personal?


The point of reference for students who have a desire to learn but little knowledge of personal spirituality *through their art* is simply that the path to enlightenment and self-knowledge can be possible through disciplined, diligent physical practise of the art [whatever the art - spiritually inclined or not] carrying into that physical practise their desire to learn.



			
				ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I mean it could often be met with contrasting views and that seems inpractical and a possible basis for politics. It seems that any spiritual content would have to seem somewhat vauge in order to encompass all walks and perhaps it remains vauge enough that at times it just goes completely unoticed?


I wouldn't suggest for a minute that spirituality could be "taught". Every student who seeks enlightenment must seek it for themselves. Stands to sense. My issue is that students are often at a loss to know where to begin. And my further concern is that often in this case, the instructor has no knowledge themselves: some schools being largely concerned only with *techniques* with little or no meaning attached to the practise of these techniques.



			
				ed-swckf said:
			
		

> But you agree that people are free to believe what they wish and follow or indeed not follow their personal spiritual path so what sense would it make to make the sylabus lean toward a particular flavour of spirituality?


Yes I agree, and no I do not advocate any particular flavor of spirituality. This would be in contradiction to everything commonsense about the personal nature of spirituality.



			
				ed-swckf said:
			
		

> ...if it was required by more people then surely there would be more schools offering that?


Several students I have spoken with tell me they just say nothing because they just doubt there'd be anything available in the school [like asking for a T-bone steak in McDonalds]. This however, does not preclude the fact that there's a demand for it. And I think you raise another issue that if in a class of thirty only one has a desire to deepen their spiritual knowledge of the art should we ignore this student's enthusiasm? Direct them onto the internet? Suggest some good reading? Maybe. And maybe that's what happens [it is in my experience]. But it's not what I'd be about personally.



			
				ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Maybe i'm wrong and maybe theres a way to be open in teaching toward all peoples insight of spirituality but i can't really see it unfortunately.


Ain't that the truth. There's *absolutely* no way to "teach" spirituality to anyone. It's pure arrogance and really just not do-able outside of the aforementioned cults. I'd take it further and say that it is not possible to teach anyone to become an artist. An artist must find themselves through their own practise, their own exploration and experimentation, whether that art be painting, singing, musical composition or yeah, martial arts. But by the same token, were we to ask a seasoned painter for some insight into how to become proficient in painting, we'd expect at least _some_ direction in the fundamentals of brushwork, composition and perspective. No? Or maybe we should be happy just knowing the URL of a good online art-gallery.

Respects!


----------



## ed-swckf

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I am referring to personal spirituality that is correct. Any form of "communal" spirituality implies religion which personally neither concerns nor interests me in my martial practices.


 
What makes it correct?




			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> The point of reference for students who have a desire to learn but little knowledge of personal spirituality *through their art* is simply that the path to enlightenment and self-knowledge can be possible through disciplined, diligent physical practise of the art [whatever the art - spiritually inclined or not] carrying into that physical practise their desire to learn.


 
I don't think i've come accross many schools that negate that point of reference.  But that is something that doesn't need a teacher to tell you.  I mean its common knowledge you get out what you put in and some see that as a path that leads to a spiritual enlightenment but thats a personal slant.  If they wish to begin on that path then they have begun, there is no need to for the teacher to clarify it for them as that essentially takes away from the idea of personal spirituality.



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I wouldn't suggest for a minute that spirituality could be "taught". Every student who seeks enlightenment must seek it for themselves. Stands to sense. My issue is that students are often at a loss to know where to begin. And my further concern is that often in this case, the instructor has no knowledge themselves: some schools being largely concerned only with *techniques* with little or no meaning attached to the practise of these techniques.


 
Why do the instructors need knowledge in the form of spitituality when they can have an equal knowledge base in other forms of thought and personal insight.  If it isn't to be taught why does it matter if the teacher has the knowledge?



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Yes I agree, and no I do not advocate any particular flavor of spirituality. This would be in contradiction to everything commonsense about the personal nature of spirituality.


 
So we could say the instructor with no apparent spiritual knowledge has his own flavour of spirituality that works for them?




			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Several students I have spoken with tell me they just say nothing because they just doubt there'd be anything available in the school [like asking for a T-bone steak in McDonalds]. This however, does not preclude the fact that there's a demand for it. And I think you raise another issue that if in a class of thirty only one has a desire to deepen their spiritual knowledge of the art should we ignore this student's enthusiasm? Direct them onto the internet? Suggest some good reading? Maybe. And maybe that's what happens [it is in my experience]. But it's not what I'd be about personally.


 
So how do you meet a demand which is different for all 30 students and isn't to be taught.  And the demand for t-bone steak is catered for, when people want that they go to the place that deals that, but the product here isn't to be taught its a personal path and they are already on it.




			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Ain't that the truth. There's *absolutely* no way to "teach" spirituality to anyone. It's pure arrogance and really just not do-able outside of the aforementioned cults. I'd take it further and say that it is not possible to teach anyone to become an artist. An artist must find themselves through their own practise, their own exploration and experimentation, whether that art be painting, singing, musical composition or yeah, martial arts. But by the same token, were we to ask a seasoned painter for some insight into how to become proficient in painting, we'd expect at least _some_ direction in the fundamentals of brushwork, composition and perspective. No? Or maybe we should be happy just knowing the URL of a good online art-gallery.
> 
> Respects!


 
Well i went to art school and its a good place to learn about art, you mix with artists and your personal expression has to cut its way through.  Whilst i was taught skills and techniques i was also helped with creativity and ways to tap into ideas and move them forward.  You can't teach it but you can be in the right place to learn it if that makes sense without contradicting itself.


----------



## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I am referring to personal spirituality that is correct. Any form of "communal" spirituality implies religion which personally neither concerns nor interests me in my martial practices.


 
Why does communal spirituality imply religion when personal spirituality does not? I still feel that the term spirituality implies the spiritual which in turn implies religion - whether that is a group or an individual it makes no difference



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> The point of reference for students who have a desire to learn but little knowledge of personal spirituality *through their art* is simply that the path to enlightenment and self-knowledge can be possible through disciplined, diligent physical practise of the art [whatever the art - spiritually inclined or not] carrying into that physical practise their desire to learn.


 
If it is personal, why is it the responsibility of someone else to show/teach it? And I agree that something can be gained through disciplined, diligent physical practice, but that is what I think I was saying before. Many good and well trained martial arts teachers feel that training and gaining self knowledge or understanding are the same. Therefore they see no need to separate the two or address them separately... 



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Ain't that the truth. There's *absolutely* no way to "teach" spirituality to anyone. It's pure arrogance and really just not do-able outside of the aforementioned cults. I'd take it further and say that it is not possible to teach anyone to become an artist. An artist must find themselves through their own practise, their own exploration and experimentation, whether that art be painting, singing, musical composition or yeah, martial arts. But by the same token, were we to ask a seasoned painter for some insight into how to become proficient in painting, we'd expect at least some direction in the fundamentals of brushwork, composition and perspective. No? Or maybe we should be happy just knowing the URL of a good online art-gallery.



Could this be because it is personal and therefore the meaning of spirituality could be different from person to person? 

As for a good artist teaching brushwork...there are many different artist that have many different brush strokes, is it the responsibility of any artist to teach any or all of them to those that ask? There are some very famous artist out there that I personally can't stand, other I like very much and you may or may not agree so in reference to this "spirituality" how do you decide as the teacher who to teach what to, which is true, and which is best?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Why does communal spirituality imply religion when personal spirituality does not? I still feel that the term spirituality implies the spiritual which in turn implies religion - whether that is a group or an individual it makes no difference


I feel I must disagree, Xue.  Religion is a structure in which common styles of spirituality meet under agreed rules (dogma).  It exists, even, without spirituality.  Religion is a construct.  Spirituality is innate.







			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> As for a good artist teaching brushwork...there are many different artist that have many different brush strokes, is it the responsibility of any artist to teach any or all of them to those that ask? There are some very famous artist out there that I personally can't stand, other I like very much and you may or may not agree so in reference to this "spirituality" how do you decide as the teacher who to teach what to, which is true, and which is best?


My wife endured art school.  In that course of study, she had to complete certain basics in order to attain her degree.  Many of these basics were essential styles, created by masters in the arts.  Until, through art, she could show that she comprehended these other artists, she could not achieve her degree.


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## Xue Sheng

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I feel I must disagree, Xue. Religion is a structure in which common styles of spirituality meet under agreed rules (dogma). It exists, even, without spirituality. Religion is a construct. Spirituality is innate.


 
OK, but if it is innate then why you do need someone to guide you to it through martial arts? Which were originally designed for war.

And my main point here was that to many good and well trained martial arts teachers it may be that they do not see spirituality, if you will, separate from the training. Particularly if that teacher is Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. 



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> My wife endured art school. In that course of study, she had to complete certain basics in order to attain her degree. Many of these basics were essential styles, created by masters in the arts. Until, through art, she could show that she comprehended these other artists, she could not achieve her degree.


 
Point taken


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## OnlyAnEgg

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> OK, but if it is innate then why you do need someone to guide you to it through martial arts? Which were originally designed for war.



I see martial arts as a path to many things: physical fitness, discipline, skill and, as it's the topic, a degree of internal knowledge that can easily be moved to a deeper spirituality.  I maintain spirituality is innate; but, there's a great difference between a spiritual creature and a creature of spirituality.  It, too, is a path.





			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> And my main point here was that to many good and well trained martial arts teachers it may be that they do not see spirituality, if you will, separate from the training. Particularly if that teacher is Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.


Is that not an agreement on the innate nature of some degree of spirituality?



Point taken[/quote]


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## elder999

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> [/color]
> I see martial arts as a path to many things: physical fitness, *discipline*, skill and, as it's the topic, a degree of internal knowledge that can easily be moved to a deeper spirituality.
> Point taken


[/quote]

Discipline is a means to an end, never an end in itself.


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## OnlyAnEgg

Elder999 said:
			
		

> Discipline is a means to an end, never an end in itself.


 
I accede that point.


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## Xue Sheng

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> [/color]
> I see martial arts as a path to many things: physical fitness, discipline, skill and, as it's the topic, a degree of internal knowledge that can easily be moved to a deeper spirituality. I maintain spirituality is innate; but, there's a great difference between a spiritual creature and a creature of spirituality. It, too, is a path.


 
We too have a semantic issue I think. I will not ever refer to this as spirituality in context with martial arts. If you do, that is great, I won't.

I will not call this spirituality because that is to easily misconstrued, understood as, or changed to religion, which martial arts are not. 




			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> /Is that not an agreement on the innate nature of some degree of spirituality?


 
No, it is saying that they do not see these things separately therefore they feel no need to teach them as such and I was using your word "spirituality" I would not apply this to this situation. 

And this is not saying that we are born with it, which is what innate is. It is saying to the teacher that the training of the martial art is what will lead to a deeper understanding.


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## bushidomartialarts

the general kenpo culture doesn't seem to place much importance on the spiritual growth of their students, but many individual instructors and dojos work hard to provide some guidance anyway.


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## Xue Sheng

My final statement on this and then I will return to the safety of my martial arts area of the boards. 

I heard a term this morning secular enlightenment I can honestly say I have absolutely no problem with this terminology being applied to the martial arts. Therefore by that same logic I should not have any problem with the terminology secular spirituality being applied to martial arts either. This is not saying that anyone needs to, or should change there way of speaking, writing, typing, etc. It is just saying that I would have no argument against that terminology. Although I do not think I would ever use it, but I certainly have no argument against it.

Also I do not have any problem with religion nor do I think of religions as cults. Quite the contrary, I have studied religions in the past and I find the study quite fascinating. But some religions become cults, as far as I can tell no cult, in recent history, has become a religion. 

I can respect a truly religious person but I equally fear a religious zealot. I did not wish to leave anyone the impression that I am against religion or the lack of it either. I am just very concerned with the application of religion to martial arts, particularly Western religions and new age religions. But I do not have anything against a martial arts school that practices Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. I do have a problem with any of those schools if they attempt to put forth the idea that there way is the true way and all others are wrong and/or evil due to their own misunderstanding or intolerance.

Zaijian


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## MartialIntent

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> the general kenpo culture doesn't seem to place much importance on the spiritual growth of their students, but many individual instructors and dojos work hard to provide some guidance anyway.


I think it's encouraging that instructors are going the extra mile to accommodate students who have the desire to further travel their own spiritual paths in the art. Excellent. Though for me, no matter what the art, there's always capacity for practitioners to gain a deeper knowledge of themselves, which hopefully directs them towards enlightenment. I don't think this is strictly the domain of eastern arts either.

What style of Kenpo do you practise? As a layperson when it comes to kenpo, I'd have thought of the art as perhaps not aligning itself to any particular spiritual ideas - though having done some research into Shorinji Kempo, I found the opposite to be true in that time is devoted within the practise hall to the spiritual practices utterly integral to the artform as formulated by Doshin So. Do you know if this is the case?

Respects!


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## MartialIntent

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I can respect a truly religious person but I equally fear a religious zealot. I did not wish to leave anyone the impression that I am against religion or the lack of it either. I am just very concerned with the application of religion to martial arts, particularly Western religions and new age religions.


There's still a confusion among practitioners in the arts between religion and spirituality / philosophy even [take a look at the MT spirituality / philosophy sub-forum and see how many threads concern organised religion]. But whilst a faithful follower of a religion can undoubtedly attain a martial spirituality with the assistance of their faith, I maintain, that *there is no requirement* for one to hold any religious convictions to achieve the same enlightenment.

I appreciate that for schools based in the far east or Asia, there's no deliniation between spiritual practice and physical practice, they are inherent and inseparable parts of the whole art but in the west we do still refer to mind AND body and to the subsequent desire for attainment of mind/body unification in our practices.

This discrepancy between eastern / western systems may well be due to misinterpretations or minsunderstandings of the nuances of the eastern teachings as they were passed across to the west but I don't think it takes away from the fact that personal spirituality [by whatever name] is achievable by ANY interested and open martial artist irrespective of their art and irrespective of their religious beliefs or lack of.

ps. I hope you don't return to the safety of your martial arts area of the boards. Your insight is welcome. I say be free and roam and cast your net wide! 

Respects!


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## Xue Sheng

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> ps. I hope you don't return to the safety of your martial arts area of the boards. Your insight is welcome. I say be free and roam and cast your net wide!
> 
> Respects!


 
Thank You, but right now I pretty much feel I have said enough on the subject, although apparently I am finding it hard to stop commenting. 

I think I need to take a break from Spirituality and religion and the Martial Arts, and I need to focus more on the martial arts part.

I am returning to an old style I did many years ago and it will require more training and less talking/typing. 

Sooner or later I will be back, you can't get rid of me that easily 

Good luck in your quest.


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## Fu_Bag

This is a very touchy subject for a lot of people. I think that it's a lose, lose situation. For one, oftentimes, people come into martial arts with their own deeply ingrained religious beliefs. Some people think that the spirituality stuff comes with a big cup of poison Kool-Aid. I think that there's a real fear among some that they'll be "tainted".

It's easy to understand where they're coming from. I have a different way of thinking about it. The spiritual side is like the expansion pack for a popular video game. In it, you have all of the spirit and culture that allowed the art to live, breathe, grow, and prosper. It's kind of like a reference library and a collection of snapshots of times past.

As an actor will say "So, What's my motivation?", so do martial artists. Practicing nothing but physical techniques without referencing the everyday lives of those who originally practiced them seems absurd to me. Suppose that your everyday experience involved the very real possibility of being killed in some type of violence. Well, with only the physical techniques, your only option is to engage in physical conflict.

Let's say that you were fortunate enough to lose, but survive, 4 or 5 fights and got to thinking, "Whoa. If that person had wanted to kill me, I'd be dead. I've got to find a better way of dealing with these types of encounters so that I don't end up dead next time." So maybe you learn how to reason with people, improve your ability to interact with aggressors, and manage yourself internally so that you won't get killed.

I've known some people who've come back from battle having killed someone. For them, it's no joke. It's not cool. It's something that they need to find healing from.

Martial arts is about surviving war. You aren't technically surviving war if you die on the inside because you happen to be lucky enough to make it off of the battlefield. You don't want to bring the war home to your family. You want to be able to feel whole again. If you're fighting for peace and justice, you want to be able to feel peaceful, alive, and human inside once the battle is done.

Eventhough there are books that cover the spiritual side of some arts, if the instructor doesn't find value in them, why would the students? There are also no shortage of parents who would go through the roof if they found their child reading about some "heathen, godless ways". Some people just really, really, really want to be Power Rangers and, hey, it sells. I think that's another reason why instructors may be very wary about associating themselves with the "mushy" or "mystical" stuff.

At least we have the internet to discuss such things. 

Great topic MartialIntent. 


Fu Bag


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## pstarr

I believe that the spiritual nature of the martial arts is very important but it can be transmitted only by someone who has achieved a high level of skill and understanding of his or her art.

Over the many years that I've been teaching I've had numerous people enroll, aspiring to learn the "spiritual nature" of the arts and hence, themselves.  I always caution them that such desires will only act as stumbling blocks if they appear too early along the path...and sure enough, they almost always failed to realize that grasping the true spiritual nature of the martial arts is achieved only through very rigorous physical and mental training.

Certainly, the martial arts are not the only (physical) activities that have a spiritual side...many years ago I spent some time with Alan Watts (the first Caucasian zen master and a very prolific writer whose books are still to be found in many bookstores).  Dr. Watts (who was also a devoted aikidoist) said, "Any physical activity - from tennis to bowling to martial arts - becomes a spiritual experience if it's carried to its extreme."


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## Fu_Bag

pstarr,

Those are some great points and, I have to say, that I've met some weird people whose weirdness was greatly magnified by the "mystical" and "mushy" stuff. You're right about good, honest training. It takes a lot more than your physical self to keep getting up to get nailed again, and again, and again. 

That strength then becomes ingrained in every part of you so that, when you're ready for the spiritual stuff, you "just happen to find it". Trying to learn it before you've developed in complementary ways can make a person a very kooky critter. As injuries happen in every physical activity, those injuries, be they mental, physical, or otherwise, can help a person to grow spiritually through actual need. 

At this time, my thoughts are that the most natural time to learn the spiritual stuff is when you need it to survive. However, with that said, I think that both the physical and spritual aspects of any martial art can lead to a person's downfall if they're either taught, or learned, unnaturally.

Respect...

Fu Bag


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## SFC JeffJ

I've said it before, but since this is up and going again, I think at their core, combative styles are physical at their core.  However, they can be a powerful metaphor for spirituality.  But nothing more than that.  Then again, everything that people say has a spiritual side is a metaphor for how to live.


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## Colin_Linz

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> What style of Kenpo do you practise? As a layperson when it comes to kenpo, I'd have thought of the art as perhaps not aligning itself to any particular spiritual ideas - though having done some research into Shorinji Kempo, I found the opposite to be true in that time is devoted within the practise hall to the spiritual practices utterly integral to the artform as formulated by Doshin So. Do you know if this is the case?
> 
> Respects!


 With regard to Shorinji Kempo. There are three ranking structures in operation. These are Bukai (martial art) Hokai (philosophy) and Sokai (religion). To gain Sokai rankings it is necessary to train at doin, as dojos are not allowed to teach the religious syllabus. As there are no doins outside of Japan there are only a few westerners with Sokai ranking. Bukai and Hokai ranking will be gained in normal practice at a dojo or shibu.

Due to changes in the law in Japan where it is now illegal to teach religion in a publicly owned building WSKO (World Shorinji Kempo Organisation) have had to change their written educational material. Where as our old Fukudoko Hon had a section dedicated to the religious side of Shorinji Kempo its new replacement, the Toku Hon contains no religious information, and as such can be used by all kenshi.

From the standpoint of normal training the only religious reference is to Dharma and practicing the principles of Kongo Zen (Kongo Zen Buddhism) during the reciting of Shinjo (creed). This is at the halfway point of training and will be preceded by Seiku (meditation) and Seigun (oath). After this there will normally be some form of short philosophy lesson. Actually the whole lesson is a philosophy lesson. When Doshin So developed Shorinji Kempo and its training methods he did so with idea of using the physical training as a resource to re-enforce his philosophical ideas. It really is one big experiential learning tool.

So to answer your question, the philosophy is absolutely integral to the practice of Shorinji Kempo; however the religion is not. At one stage you had to be Buddhist to learn it, but this has not been the case for many years now.


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## NLMontana

I teach _strictly _from a "spiritual" perspective.  I do not teach fighting at all.  The art I teach is about healing.  I work with fighting technique, only because it is effective to punch and kick our way through blocks in our energy field.  I also only teach students 18 years of age of older, provided they are ready to move beyond the physical to what I perceive to be the true essence of martial arts.

The discipline I teach is called Shihando, Way of the Master, which teaches the alchemy of Reiki, a Japanese healing art, and Juai Kung Karbo (Mastery through Movement), which incorporates Yang Style Tai-Chi and Shaolin Style Kung Fu forms.  The discipline of Shihando touches through symbolic movement the substance of Life Force, the energy called ch'i or ki, within and surrounding the body.  Everything is this energy.

The Universal Life Force, ch'i or ki, is a language.  In Shihando, each movement of the forms is a stroke in a calligraphy designed to enable the practitioner to channel the power that is the Universal Life Force.  The sequential movements are based upon geometric patterns that when combined form calligraphies or symbols, which are Sanskrit in their origin.

The study of this discipline allows us to communicate with a more subtle level of awareness.  It is the study of a Universal language that, like any dialogue, produces an energy unique in vibration and frequency.  The symbolic form of the calligraphies speak the language of the Life Force.
The language of the Universal Life Force speaks to us about consciously creating our reality.  It speaks to us of finding the balance in our lives in the midst of imbalance.  It speaks to us of the importance of achieving a sense of movement through personal growth.  Applying this language through the study of Shihando teaches us control without control, as we allow the Life Force to guide our movements while our movements are guiding the Life Force.

This language teaches us to pay attention to all of the details, but to stay relaxed, centered, focused and flexible so we can move with the flow of energy around us instead of against it.  It teaches us to be palm trees instead of oak trees in the darkness of a hurricane.  It teaches us to move with the grace of a gazelle.  It teaches us to seek the inner beauty and thus see beyond the physical.  The language of the Universal Life Force teaches us to touch and feel with our hands and hearts, to see and perceive with our eyes and minds and to listen and hear with our ears and souls.

It dares us to be as whole as we already are.


When we allow the disciplines of martial arts to touch us at a higher level than just the physical, then we can begin to get a glimpse of the depths of power and energy that we are.  The immortal essence of the Universe is who we really are.  By tuning into its energies through form, we tune into our substance.  By tuning into our Life Force, we tune into ourselves.

Thus we face the epitome of our spiritual awareness:  to be able to move beyond the physical to that which makes the physical  to the substance of Life Force  to our soul.

Anyone can learn the movements and symbols of the Universal Life Force, but what of the essence of those movements and symbols?  The challenge is to study and learn of the depths of meaning within each geometric in terms of what it is doing to alter our perception of who we are.

The true study is of ourselves, not of the forms.

On your scale, I'd say I'm at about 200%.

Thank you.


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## Fu_Bag

Colin_Linz,

Thank you for sharing that information. That's interesting about the religion in publicly owned buildings being illegal. Do they define dojos as publicly owned buildings? It seems self-defeating to me that a law would be passed outlawing a certain aspect of culture. If that's the case, that really is a sad state of affairs for the preservation of the martial arts.


NLMontana,

Wow. I don't think I've even heard of anyone practicing an art like yours before. With the "spirituality" stuff being so taboo, is it difficult to draw students? I agree with your estimation of "200%". Your methods sound interesting. I'll have to take some time to absorb what you've put out there. It sounds very holistic.


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## Colin_Linz

Fu_Bag said:
			
		

> Colin_Linz,
> 
> Thank you for sharing that information. That's interesting about the religion in publicly owned buildings being illegal. Do they define dojos as publicly owned buildings? It seems self-defeating to me that a law would be passed outlawing a certain aspect of culture. If that's the case, that really is a sad state of affairs for the preservation of the martial arts.


If a dojo is in any government owned building they are not allowed to teach religion. This is not only with us, it is any religion. If the dojo is in a privately owned building they can teach religion. In regards to Shorinji Kempo, to teach the religion (Kongo Zen Buddhism) it is necessary to hold the required ranking in this aspect. If you hold the rank and the premises is suitable then you will have the classification of doin instead of dojo and teach the religion along side of the martial art and philosopy. Just for interest our headquarters is a temple in Tadotsu. It is a Shorinji Kempo temple and also a school. They teach a normal high school curriculum along with Shorinji Kempo. They also have a higher learning institute where Shorinji Kempo kenshi of yudansha ranks can study full time for a period of either 2 or 3 years. They devote 4 hours a day to the martial art and 4 hours a day to the religion. At the end of the period they will exit with the required grade to teach Shorinji Kempo. Below is our Headquarters, the buildings are for accomodation of live in students, WSKO administration, the School, a museum, and a three level training complex (2000 people can train there at any one time I've been told). I have been there twice and would dearly love to return again, the experiance was great. This is a link to the school if your interested http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/school/zenrin/distinctive.html


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## Fu_Bag

Colin_Linz,

Thank you for the additional information and clarification. What an outstanding setup you guys have going! It's very encouraging that such a place exists! I bet the students there get very high grades.

In short....<drool>

That'd be great if such places existed in the West.


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## Colin_Linz

Fu_Bag said:
			
		

> Colin_Linz,
> 
> Thank you for the additional information and clarification. What an outstanding setup you guys have going! It's very encouraging that such a place exists! I bet the students there get very high grades.
> 
> In short....<drool>
> 
> That'd be great if such places existed in the West.


Three years full time study will get you to 4th dan, you need to be at least 1st dan to start. Grades in Shorinji Kempo can take a little while to acheive. From memory the two head instructor's (we do most of our techniques in pair form) there are 6th or 7th dan. This is a link to Kawashima sensei profile, he is head the head instructor. at Hombu (headquarters) Doin. He has studied there pretty pretty much full time for many years. I first met him in 1989 he was assisting the then head instructors Arai sensei and Yamazaki sensei. http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/instructor/17.html


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## Elayna

This is a wonderful thread for people exploring themselves, sprituality what it means.  I believet that we all have so much to learn and so much to do.
I dont think anyone one of us can honestly say that we have learned everything or more then someone else. For those of us who concentrate more on the "spiritual" then the physical, we are lacking in the complete training, knowledge, and feeling that comes along with that line of training.  And the same for those that study only the phsyical.  They do not have the complete training, knowledge and feeling that comes with that line of training.
And for this reason I believe is why the great masters stress so much being able to train in all aspect of martial arts.  So that we can be well balances in all that we do. For if we only concentrate on one aspect of martial arts, then we are not complete or whole.
I do not believe that I know more then those who train for the body, just because I feel I understand the great masters "spiritual point of view". Just as I hope those who train the body dont feel they know more then those who do study spirituality.
So I guess what Im trying to say is...If you think you know something...you may not really.  Just keep studying, keep learning, and always be willing to learn something from someone else.

On the scale of spirituality I am...Unknown...Is there even one?? What are the measurments??

Have a good night everyone.


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## Curlykarateka

I dunno about spirituality, I don't really believe in spirit's or souls but I do take the philosophy of it quite seriously. Things like not initiating conflict and the like. Also I do hold a "great power, great responsibility" view. It's probably very naive and will land me in hospital one day but part of me tells me that if someone is being bullied or opressed then it is my duty as a martial artist to intervene, within reason obviously, three guys with knives can pick on who ever they like if I'm unarmed


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