# Is It All In Decline?



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 15, 2008)

> I hate the fact that if someone buys enough ad space they seem to get articles printed in a favorable manner to them all the time



 I read this comment just now and it has sparked my brain off. In terms of commercial success, martial arts is at an all time high. Movies regularly are released with some some new unheard of before arts emerging from them. UFC is now a mainstream sport and widely accepted around the world. You can almost always find a dojo or somewhere to train no matter where you are. There is now a lot more activity and trading of information taking place between martial arts and entire sciences are evolving around martial roots.
 However, I have also come to understand that there is a lot of dischord with it all as well. I don't know if this has been brought up before (though it more than likely has) and I apologise if I'm just regurgitating the same old junk that  has been said before. So allow me to throw up some points that I think need mention and I would appreciate any feedback you all could give.
 So to my first point and probably the one that is most prominent today. The McDojo. Several dojos (I'm using the term dojo for ease of use as an alternative for any training area) seem to have sprung up over the past few years. Many, for varying reasons (lack of supposed lineage, youth and general lack of instructor experience, numbers of young students, how fast people advance within the school, the list is endless) have been termed McDojos. The key thing that binds them all to this category (in my opinion) is the fact that they all seem to follow the same money making agenda. I ersonally have seen school like this pop up close to where I live and I was absolutely appalled at the complete and utter shameless profit mongering I witnessed by many of them. There were however a couple of places where I saw a genuinely good atmosphere. I may not have been completely at ease with what was being taught, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the dojos were operating in a good and safe manner. My question on this front is: What truly constitutes to something being called a McDojo? And also, is it a typically bad thing to have them around? If a place is really that bad, then the students who want to learn martial arts will surely look elsewhere, then there is always the chance that they will walk through your door. Small point to a much bigger argument I'm sure, so hopefully we can expand on that.

 Moving swiftly on. Massive commercialism in the martial arts. I suppose this kind of leads on from the McDojo. But I see everyone milking the martial arts cow almost to death. There are countless magazines available now to cater for every taste. All of which have adverts in them at some point. These magazines (in my opinion) shamelessly promote whoever can pay for the advertising. These people get fantastic reviews and a great reputation when actually they may be really bad instructors and worse, really bad people. The amount of shops that now sell merchandise has increased tremendously and now you only have to run a google search to find anything for anything. People run seminars now charging at several hundred pounds for an attendance (I always thought martial artists were supposed to be eager to share knowledge and information for free). It seems to be a big ego inflating and profit mongering machine that in my opinion is causing massive damage to credible martial arts.

 My last major thing follows on again and that is the instructors, no, not just the instructors, the people. The ego is both the greatest asset and the greatest burden to a martial artist (in my opinion). Pride can make you want to perform at your best and most perfect but it can also make your mistakes much worse. For some reason, just because someone now doesn't think a particular martial art is very effective they don't find someone with whom they can discuss the art and attempt to find out about the core principles, instead they just rant and rave about how crap it is. This opinion is then force fed to their students and to anyone that will listen. And when noone listens they go online and rant about it there, sometimes just to start some sort of argument. People are voraciously trying to climb rank and kiss **** and never actually trying to improve themselves. And when they have rank they expect to sit on a pedestal like they've achieved something. In martial arts you've achieved something if you've managed to make a positive difference to one persons life. I don't see anyone asking questions any more. Ask yourselves when was the last time someone asked during a demonstration of technique why you do it? Why are people so scared of rank that they now feel too intimidated to ask a question?

 These are just a bunch of ramblings. And as I have seen many bad martial arts and many serious rotten to the core martial artists I have seen the decent side and the good ones as well. But I have to ask, is it enough? It seems to me that eventually all that will be left will be pockets of die hard practitioners who may never even get the chance to meet one another because they just don't want to face the masses of commercial crap. I know there are probably a tonne of holes in what I've just written and I know that it'll probably get ripped to bits, but I like this forum and I respect the members opinions. This was written from the heart, not the head.

 What do you all think?


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2008)

The UFC is NOT a mainstream sport. It's a mainstream promotion,a business. The style of fighting is MMA which is not mainstream yet.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> The UFC is NOT a mainstream sport. It's a mainstream promotion,a business. The style of fighting is MMA which is not mainstream yet.


 
I beg to differ....at least in my neck of the woods...MMA schools are popping up all over the place. I see that as evidence that it is becoming mainstream.


----------



## Andrew Green (Sep 15, 2008)

So basically things haven't changed much?

Shameless self-promotion & misleading sales pitches are nothing new, they've been in North America as long as martial arts schools have been.  There are more of them now, but then there are more martial arts schools as a whole as well.

People generally end up finding what they are looking for, even if it takes a few tries.  Some people actually want a school that will constantly tell them how deadly they are and that they can never spar or compete or they will end up killing someone with their magic death touchs.  They won't phrase it in that way, but that's what they are after, "real life" role playing.

Others are looking for what really amounts to a after school program, where their kids can play power rangers and be lectured about respect and discipline.

"McDojos" exist because there is a demand for them.  Really, that's ok.  Harping on about how they are watered down and inferior quality and all that isn't going to change anything.  They are the Guitar Hero of the martial arts world.  Fun, enjoyable, not much work required.  Real guitar players often hate the game, but no one cares, it's still fun and most people really don't want to play real guitar anyways.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> I beg to differ....at least in my neck of the woods...MMA schools are popping up all over the place. I see that as evidence that it is becoming mainstream.


 
Thats good news! As long as it's 'proper' MMA and not people jumping on the bandwagon.
The original point though as you've made, is that it's MMA not UFC.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei (Sep 15, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> I beg to differ....at least in my neck of the woods...MMA schools are popping up all over the place. I see that as evidence that it is becoming mainstream.


 I agree at least in the USA, MMA is the flavor of the decade.  In my neck of the woods all of the TKD schools are adopting BJJ, NHB, and/or MMA programs into their schedules.  These are also the same schools that also have the 2yr Black Belt Club program.  In addition to that there are also a good number of MMA schools of solid repute in the local fighting scene.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2008)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I agree at least in the USA, MMA is the flavor of the decade. In my neck of the woods all of the TKD schools are adopting BJJ, NHB, and/or MMA programs into their schedules. These are also the same schools that also have the 2yr Black Belt Club program. In addition to that there are also a good number of MMA schools of solid repute in the local fighting scene.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
As long as these clubs have reputable instructors in those arts I don't see a problem, that comes when people watch DVDs and decide they know enough to teach other arts than their own. TKD (not hands down stuff I hasten to add) goes well into MMA. BJJ classes with a reputable and qualified instructor is also a good add on for a club whether or not they do MMA.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 15, 2008)

Let's put the blame where it belongs. The McDojo can't exist without people seeking a quick fix. I'm told Karate used to be practiced in Okinawa as boxing was here--long days in the gym, conditioning and sparring as well as doing solo shadowboxing exercises, and so on.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 15, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> What truly constitutes to something being called a McDojo? And also, is it a typically bad thing to have them around?


 
Good question and deserves discussion. I believe the term is thrown around rather loosely much like those throwing out UFC and thinking that is MMA when in fact it isn&#8217;t or Kung fu as a style of CMA when it is not. 

To me it would have to be a franchise or part of a franchise that is teaching martial arts for the soul purpose of making money with little concern for quality of instruction that is also guaranteeing belts in a certain time period based on a specified dollar amount.



Hyper_Shadow said:


> But I see everyone milking the martial arts cow almost to death. There are countless magazines available now to cater for every taste. All of which have adverts in them at some point. These magazines (in my opinion) shamelessly promote whoever can pay for the advertising. These people get fantastic reviews and a great reputation when actually they may be really bad instructors and worse, really bad people.


 
Part of this, IMO, is up to the consumer to research before they buy. Just because a guy comes form China and was trained in China does not mean he is good. Just because a guy comes form China, was trained in China and has copious DVDs for sale in multiple Magazines does not mean he is good either. I have told my wife (who is from China by the way) that if I were from China I could make a million dollars in the US based on the CMA I have trained and using that to make and sell DVDs. Many eat that stuff up if the person in the DVD, teaching the CMA is in fact Chinese. &#8220;Trained in China&#8221; means nothing they could be from a Wushu academy they could be a gym teacher they could be a chef. Find out what the statement &#8220;trained in China&#8221; really means. Also a bit of cultural education about the culture your chosen style comes from can help a lot too. 




Hyper_Shadow said:


> People run seminars now charging at several hundred pounds for an attendance (I always thought martial artists were supposed to be eager to share knowledge and information for free).


 
Hey they have to eat and pay bills too and if they are spending their time teaching seminars they are certainly not working anyplace else. But I have a problem with seminars. As my Sifu once said &#8220;How much can you learn in 3 days a year?&#8221;



Hyper_Shadow said:


> And when they have rank they expect to sit on a pedestal like they've achieved something. In martial arts you've achieved something if you've managed to make a positive difference to one person&#8217;s life. I don't see anyone asking questions any more. Ask yourselves when was the last time someone asked during a demonstration of technique why you do it? Why are people so scared of rank that they now feel too intimidated to ask a question?


 
Well I am from traditional CMA and we have no ranks but rank or no rank I would have no problem asking questions.



Hyper_Shadow said:


> What do you all think?


 
I think that the best taiji Sifu I have ever had the honor to train with does not advertise, do seminars or charge much. The best Wing Chun Sifu I ever had the honor to train with advertises a bit but does not do seminars or charge much either. 

However I have trained with a Taiji Sifu that is incredibly good that does seminars and charges a bit more too. So I am not sure charging and doing seminars is an issue but it is more to the quality of the teacher and, many may not want to hear this, but it is also more to the quality of the student as well.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 15, 2008)

A great post Hyper Shadow. However, there can be no light without the dark. There are a lot of bad MA out there, but there are a lot of GREAT MA too. I have seen the MA from both sides-as a student and, as an owner. I remember one of the first papers I wrote in college was about "commercialism" in the MA and what a bad thing it was. Well, I was young. Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to McDojos and belt factories. Commercialism is core to our capitolistic country, it ads "healthy" competition to our industry.As far as the money- I have paid lots to get were I am; tournaments, seminars, etc. and I did not mind paying. It would be great to teach everyone for free. But you have to ask yourself, what is your time worth. I contend that "your time" is your most precious and valuable resource...it is non-renewable, when its gone, its gone forever. I give my heart and soul to my students- I don't hold back, but I do charge more than most in my area. I beleive in giving trade in abundance and having a servant leadership mindset. Because of "commerciaism" is why MA of all flavors is popular. I market my school heavily, because--I want to positively influence as many lives as I can, with the art I love so much. I know what the MA has done for me, and I've witnessed MA changing the lives of the people envolved. In 1980 when I started MA my parents paid thirty-five dollars a month for class. A gallon of gas was around 65 cents, a stamp was 25 cents, a gallon of milk was maybe a buck-fifty, the minimum wage was 3.25 an hour, etc. *Just a hypothetical question*: If your boss came to you today and ask you accept 1980 wages, it probably would not go over well. I see my job as an instructor and a multi-school owner as a very import way to educate people on the V's and B's of MA and exercise. For me, if it was truly about the money-I would have quit a long time ago. Getting paid for what you love to do is sweet, an honor and a privledge, because, if you do what you love---you will never work a day in your life. Once again a great post Hyper Shadow. :asian:


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 15, 2008)

> What truly constitutes to something being called a McDojo? And also, is it a typically bad thing to have them around? If a place is really that bad, then the students who want to learn martial arts will surely look elsewhere, then there is always the chance that they will walk through your door.


Yes it is bad to have them around.  They disillusion students into thinking that the student is actually learning a martial art.  They give a false impression that the student will be able to protect themselves.  They take students away from those that have devoted many years to learn and achieve an understanding of their art and want to pass that art on.  They some times tell lies and spread rumors about those that are legit and drive business away with untruths.  Their give a bad name because of their  high ranks and bogus belts to all who have really achieved those ranks and belts.




> People run seminars now charging at several hundred pounds for an attendance (I always thought martial artists were supposed to be eager to share knowledge and information for free). It seems to be a big ego inflating and profit mongering machine that in my opinion is causing massive damage to credible martial arts.


It also stops many with little money to spare from attending and learning.



> And when no one listens they go online and rant about it there, sometimes just to start some sort of argument.


Yep we have had a few of them here




> People are voraciously trying to climb rank and kiss **** and never actually trying to improve themselves. And when they have rank they expect to sit on a pedestal like they've achieved something


 
Yep and that is also why McDojos exsist because someone wants to be on a pedestal they do not belong on.  
 However there are those that have achieved a high status within their organizations that are humble and open to all who ask questions or want to learn. These people have my respect


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 15, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> Yes it is bad to have them around. They disillusion students into thinking that the student is actually learning a martial art. They give a false impression that the student will be able to protect themselves.


A lot of things that the typical McDojo does I can let slide as good (if often corny) marketing and necesary income generators that help keep a school open.  But _this_ is the single most heinous offense of many of the big commercial schools: that the students with blackbelts from such places actually _believe_ that they can defend themselves.  No amount of self image from false praise and empty belts is worth this price.  Kids with such belts who think that they can fight wind up far worse off in self esteem when they _still_ get pounded by the schoolyard bully (like what happened to the Karate Kid before he learned from Mr. Myagi).

This is the biggest reason that I am sooooo against blackbelts for young kids.  They really _can't_ protect themselves, and that black belt tells both them and their parents that they _can_.  

If the McDojo has quality instruction with all the bells and whistles thrown in to keep the doors open, then fine, but most do not.

Daniel


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks for your input guys. I'm really impressed at the range of answers off of everyone.



> I see my job as an instructor and a multi-school owner as a very import way to educate people on the V's and B's of MA and exercise. For me, if it was truly about the money-I would have quit a long time ago. Getting paid for what you love to do is sweet, an honor and a privledge, because, if you do what you love---you will never work a day in your life.



I have to say I have never ever seen someone who runs a dojo for a living come up with a decent anough argument until that. Thanks for your insight.



> "McDojos" exist because there is a demand for them. Really, that's ok. Harping on about how they are watered down and inferior quality and all that isn't going to change anything. They are the Guitar Hero of the martial arts world. Fun, enjoyable, not much work required. Real guitar players often hate the game, but no one cares, it's still fun and most people really don't want to play real guitar anyways.



Good point, but it's not the watered down part that is the major problem for me. It is the risk that someone is going to go out of their door feeling completely invulnerable because someone has told them they are. And I seriously hate guitar hero XD.



> This is the biggest reason that I am sooooo against blackbelts for young kids.  They really _can't_ protect themselves, and that black belt tells both them and their parents that they _can_.
> 
> If the McDojo has quality instruction with all the bells and whistles thrown in to keep the doors open, then fine, but most do not.



Pretty much the counter point to above quote. I have to say this a major concern for me as well. However, I wouldn't say that owning a grade of any kind signifies you can protect yourself. I also believe that if a child is able to perform techniques to a high enough standard then they get the grade. If a kid is capable of doing everything on their syllabus and they do it with confidence and technical knowledge that's good enough for me. If they do kata well (and I have seen kids who do kata better than some of my adults) then they deserve recognition of it. Now I know a school is technique and form, those were just examples. But If I see a child able to do the same techniques as an adult I won't begrudge the childs age against them. If anything they should be given certain concessions in terms of the pressure they're under in grading situations and the fact that it's probably a lot harder for a child to learn MA than an adult.



> Good question and deserves discussion. I believe the term is thrown around rather loosely much like those throwing out UFC and thinking that is MMA when in fact it isnt or Kung fu as a style of CMA when it is not.



Wouldn't have expected anything less than that from you Xue, well said. I also have to apologise when I termed UFC and MMA as the same thing earlier, it would seemed that caused a slight upset. Sorry folks.



> Also a bit of cultural education about the culture your chosen style comes from can help a lot too.



To understand the techniques you are taught/teaching it is important to understand why they were being taught in that specific culture.



> As long as these clubs have reputable instructors in those arts I don't see a problem, that comes when people watch DVDs and decide they know enough to teach other arts than their own. TKD (not hands down stuff I hasten to add) goes well into MMA. BJJ classes with a reputable and qualified instructor is also a good add on for a club whether or not they do MMA.


 
What constitutes a reputable instructor. As I had mentioned earlier people can gain positive reputations through quite subversive means. How do you judge someone as an instructor?

Which brings me nicely to my next point. If people are able to so easily advertise themselves and claim great repute, how can people know they're not so good? Personal Experience with one poor instructor could put someone off MA for life. How do you all judge and gauge another instructor?


----------



## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> I have to say this a major concern for me as well. However, I wouldn't say that owning a grade of any kind signifies you can protect yourself. I also believe that if a child is able to perform techniques to a high enough standard then they get the grade. If a kid is capable of doing everything on their syllabus and they do it with confidence and technical knowledge that's good enough for me.



I don't think that separating the notion of "black belt" from "can defend oneself" is good for the arts. That public perception is itself a draw and a motivator.


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 16, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> I beg to differ....at least in my neck of the woods...MMA schools are popping up all over the place. I see that as evidence that it is becoming mainstream.


 

I agree.  MMA schools are everywhere in my area as well leading me to think its main stream.


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 16, 2008)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I agree at least in the USA, MMA is the flavor of the decade. In my neck of the woods all of the TKD schools are adopting BJJ, NHB, and/or MMA programs into their schedules. These are also the same schools that also have the 2yr Black Belt Club program. In addition to that there are also a good number of MMA schools of solid repute in the local fighting scene.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
The TKD schools here have started teaching Krav Maga.


----------



## terryl965 (Sep 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> As long as these clubs have reputable instructors in those arts I don't see a problem, that comes when people watch DVDs and decide they know enough to teach other arts than their own. TKD (not hands down stuff I hasten to add) goes well into MMA. BJJ classes with a reputable and qualified instructor is also a good add on for a club whether or not they do MMA.


 
The things is most of them do not they get videos attend a few seminar and the next thing you know they are teaching MMA, this is calle dsupply and demand. The market calls for it and people believe in it, what a concept and it has been around for years.


----------



## bowser666 (Sep 16, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> The things is most of them do not they get videos attend a few seminar and the next thing you know they are teaching MMA, this is calle dsupply and demand. The market calls for it and people believe in it, what a concept and it has been around for years.



It is so true. Now that UFC is big MMA schools are stepping up as the next McDojo. Whatever craze catches on after that , will spawn a different wave of McDojo's.  It is whatever is most marketable at that time.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 16, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> It is so true. Now that UFC is big MMA schools are stepping up as the next McDojo. Whatever craze catches on after that , will spawn a different wave of McDojo's. It is whatever is most marketable at that time.


 
Being that I work in Marketing I would tend to agree. 

We live in an "American Idol" society were the craze of the moment is what people gravitate toward regardless of whether it has any substance or not.


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 16, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> It is so true. Now that UFC is big MMA schools are stepping up as the next McDojo. Whatever craze catches on after that , will spawn a different wave of McDojo's. It is whatever is most marketable at that time.


 
Thats how it was in the 80's with ninjutsu.  Everyone claimed to know and teach it when in fact they new a little of this and a little of that and they called it Nijutsu.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 16, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Thats how it was in the 80's with ninjutsu. Everyone claimed to know and teach it when in fact they new a little of this and a little of that and they called it Nijutsu.


 
Great point!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Thats how it was in the 80's with ninjutsu.  Everyone claimed to know and teach it when in fact they new a little of this and a little of that and they called it Nijutsu.



Absolutely!


----------



## teekin (Sep 16, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Thanks for your input guys. I'm really impressed at the range of answers off of everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think I covered this in another post, "Overlook Instuctors". Basicly you can not teach what you have not mastered. The instructor's Inability to break down each technique into it's core components, knowing why each piece fits the way it does, and how they lock together to produce the desires effect, means they can NOT teach the technique clearly because they do NOT understand it. They also can not execute or adapt it.They can not correct it in themselves or others. Someone who has a 2 year black belt has mastery over nothing! and so can teach nothing, his students will learn nothing. It is all just shadows of shadows.
 Lori M


----------



## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

There are a lot of schools purporting to teach MMA out there. Some are "mixed" but not MMA in the UFC sense. Some are BJJ schools that teach a little striking. When I see "MMA" on a school's sign I don't know what it means.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 16, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Thats how it was in the 80's with ninjutsu. Everyone claimed to know and teach it when in fact they new a little of this and a little of that and they called it Nijutsu.


 
Do you know how many taiji schools actually teach real taiji today, much the same thing.

Look at any Martial arts school that has a sign in the front window in big red letters *KUNG FU* and then go ask them what style and get a blank look and the answer... well..... Kung fu...Which, by the way, means much the same as a sign in the window that says "JAPANESE MARTIAL ARTS"


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 16, 2008)

The local taji school has a big sign up on their front that reads, "KARATE", as do nearly all of the taekwondo schools in the area.  When we moved, we finally got rid of the sign that said karate, but until June, our sign read, "Karate Kendo."  Even our website was "mykaratehome.com" Now it simply says, "Korean Martial Arts" and our website is Koreanmartialartsinc.com.

Daniel


----------



## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

Alas, karate truly is a generic term now. There's little sense in fighting it. Lots of FMA schools use "Filipino Karate" in their signage and ads.

It used to be "Chinese _boxing_" but now everything is a style of karate, not boxing!


----------



## shihansmurf (Sep 16, 2008)

Martial arts fads and marketing to the target audiance of those fads are nothing new. What's more bothe the fads and the marketing are here to stay, all that will change is the particular fad and the particular marketing campaign.



> It is so true. Now that UFC is big MMA schools are stepping up as the next McDojo. Whatever craze catches on after that , will spawn a different wave of McDojo's. It is whatever is most marketable at that time


bowser666



> Being that I work in Marketing I would tend to agree.
> 
> We live in an "American Idol" society were the craze of the moment is what people gravitate toward regardless of whether it has any substance or not.


celtic_crippler

bowser and the crippler both speak wisdom. When I was a kid and just a newly minted yellow belt the ninja craze was going on with great force.Everyone was a ninja.Even those trutles but that would really come a bit later, the turtles I mean.

The samurai craze has always been a bit of an undercurrent in Japanese martial arts.

The JKD/Bruce Lee is karate god thing was still(and remains) rampant. I am amazed at the amount of "Cetified JKD teachers" that Bruce Lee promoted after his death. BTW the same thing happened after Ed Parker died.

RBSD, Krav Maga in particular has been the rage for quite a while. Camoflauge Commandos teaching practical survival skills to civilian classes such as sentry removal, and KP Duty evasion.
BJJ/MMA is the current hotness. Naturally we have a bunch of "Masters" that have jumped on the bandwagon.

Given time, we will have a new cool thing that will have instant masters.

I think I'll get in on the ground floor of the next craze and seperate some gullible types from their cash. I just need a new martial fad.Hmm.......

I've got it. I'll teach the ancient art of Sword-Chukery!!!!!

Master Fighter
Mark

P.S. The source of sword chucks is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Warriors_(8-Bit_Theater)
scroll down to fighter


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 16, 2008)

Ecky Thump is the next big thing!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TJxGi8bizEg&feature=related


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't mean to contradict you but I do believe it is SD against Fruit that will be the next big thing

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w


----------



## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

The RBSD and MMA crazes will last for a while, but they'll be replaced some day too.


----------



## qwksilver61 (Sep 20, 2008)

I'm with you on that Ego thing,pretty sad. I have seen lower level students waste their money and time attending seminars,given a task and then spending hours hammering out the same sloppy technique with no supervision from the senior level students.I can credit myself for chasing at least one school out of town..these two cats were (claimed) golden gloves boxers,along with a couple of kicks,were taking these peoples money hand over fist until I exposed them,the next day they had closed shop.One guy that I was giving instruction to was only in it for what he could get,instant Kung Fu.He exhibited no patience,admittedly did not practice as often as he should have,produced almost no results (say's he had a hard time remembering, and needed someone right there) and did not want to research anything Martial arts related, no conversations relative to MA's.I gave this guy good quality training,almost a years worth of free lessons ( he later bitched about his future in ma's,that's when the lid blew off!) seems nowaday with the exception of this forum no one can carry on a civil conversation about anything with out either being opinionated or on the defense.That fellow I trained...I refuse to teach him anything.Most people don'y want to know any more than what is directly in front of them,throw away society?Forget the past...that's "OLD STUFF" I beg to differ....never stop searching for the truth.Peace out!


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 20, 2008)

arnisador said:


> The RBSD and MMA crazes will last for a while, but they'll be replaced some day too.


 
RBSD and MMA have been going on for a long time over here, the RBSD for 30 years or more, I think it will carry on but be accepted as traditional martial arts lol!
Any ideas what will replace them as the flavour of the month? We could get in on the ground floor of the next best thing and make a fortune lol!


----------



## teekin (Sep 20, 2008)

Tez, I think very traditional style TMA are on the way back in. I think the public is tired of being ripped off with the promise of "quick and easy" and is ready to go and look at the classical roots. 
 I bet anything that espouses aherence to a "classical" system and has lots of complicated Kata will be big. Spending 10+ years to get a BB will be seen as proper. ( much like dressage)
Lori


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> RBSD and MMA have been going on for a long time over here, the RBSD for 30 years or more, I think it will carry on but be accepted as traditional martial arts lol!
> Any ideas what will replace them as the flavour of the month? We could get in on the ground floor of the next best thing and make a fortune lol!


 
At one time or another every single TMA was new 



Grendel308 said:


> Tez, I think very traditional style TMA are on the way back in. I think the public is tired of being ripped off with the promise of "quick and easy" and is ready to go and look at the classical roots.
> I bet anything that espouses aherence to a "classical" system and has lots of complicated Kata will be big. Spending 10+ years to get a BB will be seen as proper. ( much like dressage)
> Lori


 
I agree but this may or may not be a good thing because what I have seen in anything that can be considered a resurgence of TMA tends to be a rather watered down version of the TMA they came from.


----------



## teekin (Sep 21, 2008)

Xue, I have insufficeint knowledge to debate the point either way but I Hope you are wrong. I am hoping that there are enough dedicated people around to preserve the knowledge in it's original forms (kata) and who can and will teach them. :mst:
 No system ever has more than a handful of living masters, how ever popular it is. The pyramid just gets wider at the bottom.
Ever the optimest, or I'm wrecked
 Lori:wink:


----------



## qwksilver61 (Sep 21, 2008)

I'm with you on that one...preserving original Knowledge....if it's not broken...don't fix it!


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't think there is really much 'original knowledge left'. Maybe in a handful of texts that may have been passed down in rare cases and in Kata, but it certainly is very diluted now. That of course is the great point to martial arts isn't it? We have to take those small bits of info and try to put it back together. We have to sieve out all the crap so that later generations of our schools have much purer information to work with. Our egos can't figure into it otherwise we end up with the great mess we have now.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 22, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Xue, I have insufficeint knowledge to debate the point either way but I Hope you are wrong. I am hoping that there are enough dedicated people around to preserve the knowledge in it's original forms (kata) and who can and will teach them. :mst:
> No system ever has more than a handful of living masters, how ever popular it is. The pyramid just gets wider at the bottom.
> Ever the optimest, or I'm wrecked
> Lori:wink:


 
There are some people that know what they are doing but they are by far out weighed by those that do not and if you are talking CMA the problem here is those that REALLY know tend to not talk much or advertise much, if at all,  and those that do not really know tend to yell loudly and advertise like crazy. And you also have the person that does actually "know" their style that gives into pressure and lightens things up for the all mighty dollar. So what tends to happen is the pool of "dedicated people" tends to get smaller all the time. So I do not see a resurgence of TMA I see it slowly going away. I do see a resurgence of TMA light or bastardized being called "Traditional" Martial arts.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 22, 2008)

As each of the old masters die a bit of knowledge dies with them.  Their students may think that all has been passed on but events, people, conditions, experiments, who taught who, and those little things that seemed so ordinary to them may not have been passed.  We live in a time when much has to be rediscovered and much PHONEY **** has to be discarded


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 22, 2008)

I think the MMA craze can hurt TMA's, but I'm not sure how long it's going to have an effect.

It seems that MMA is huge right now, and that only a small, small handful of TMA's are recognized as worth learning.  Everyone is looking to what the "masters" of the MMA events are saying about what TMA's they train in, and they take it to heart.  As a result, many TMA's are discarded as yesterday's news.

It bothers me to an extent to see this happen, but I realize that people are still going to train in TMA's regardless of how "popular" they become.  And, if you really stop and think about it, it's the people who train in the TMA's for the love of the martial art itself that go on to further themselves...the ones who are involved with the "flavor of the month" mentality are just going to drop out when something more popular comes around.

I'm looking for the same thing to happen with MMA.  It's just a matter of time.


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 22, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I think the MMA craze can hurt TMA's, but I'm not sure how long it's going to have an effect.
> 
> It seems that MMA is huge right now, and that only a small, small handful of TMA's are recognized as worth learning. Everyone is looking to what the "masters" of the MMA events are saying about what TMA's they train in, and they take it to heart. As a result, many TMA's are discarded as yesterday's news.
> 
> ...


 
It saddens me to see how TMA are getting treated now days.  People saying things like TMA will never work in a real fight because of this or because of that.  All of that is BS.  There is a reason why TMA have survived for this long and that rerason is because it IS effective in real combat.  Unfortunitely I think MMA is hear to stay for a long time.  The reason I say this is because of events like the UFC.  People want to see violence and blood and the UFC offers that.  Until these type events start showing fighters from a TMA background then MMA is going to be what you see and hear about for a long time.  Right now MMA events is whats controlling whats popular.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 22, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I think the MMA craze can hurt TMA's, but I'm not sure how long it's going to have an effect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that the key to dealing with what the MMA masters say about TMA is to listen to what is being said.  Some of the criticisms are valid and should be addressed.

Also, some of the things being voiced by the MMA community are things that have been said for years, but never received any serious consideration until MMA came along and in some way validated them.  Such criticisms, accurate or not, need to be addressed.  The legitamate criticisms should become action items for the TMA community.  

The less accuarate ones reflect percepetions that are out there.  The perceptions may be not be accurate, but they should be addressed so that they can be dispelled.

I think that the current popularity of MMA is a positive for martial arts in general, including TMA.  If addressed effectively, TMA can springboard and become better than ever.  As a TMA guy, I feel that MMA is in a big way, making TMA better and more effective, which in turn, feeds back into MMA, so everyone benefits.

Daniel


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> It saddens me to see how TMA are getting treated now days. People saying things like TMA will never work in a real fight because of this or because of that. All of that is BS. There is a reason why TMA have survived for this long and that rerason is because it IS effective in real combat. Unfortunitely I think MMA is hear to stay for a long time. The reason I say this is because of events like the UFC. People want to see violence and blood and the UFC offers that. Until these type events start showing fighters from a TMA background then MMA is going to be what you see and hear about for a long time. Right now MMA events is whats controlling whats popular.


 

All the fighters I know in MMA come from a TMA background and many practice TMA as well as compete in MMA. This ranges from TKD, karate, Whin Chun to Judo.
I have been to many MMA shows all over the UK ( not the UFC though, far too expensive and doesn't have the best fighters on) and I'd disagree with what you think the crowds want. More and more they are understanding what MMA is about and are appreciating the technical aspects of it as well as the combat. The people who want the blood and guts may come once but are invariably disappointed and stay away or go to the boxing bouts.
I find those who invariably denigrate MMA are those who have never been to a show and judge purely from watching a couple of bouts of the UFC which frankly, while it may have started the MMA craze simply doesn't have the best fighters on these days, it has the most marketed.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 22, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are some people that know what they are doing but they are by far out weighed by those that do not and if you are talking CMA the problem here is those that REALLY know tend to not talk much or advertise much, if at all, and those that do not really know tend to yell loudly and advertise like crazy. And you also have the person that does actually "know" their style that gives into pressure and lightens things up for the all mighty dollar. So what tends to happen is the pool of "dedicated people" tends to get smaller all the time. So I do not see a resurgence of TMA I see it slowly going away. I do see a resurgence of TMA light or bastardized being called "Traditional" Martial arts.


 
Xue Sheng, I respectfully disagree with you on this one. TMA has survived almost two thousand years. I submitt those folks you speak of that really know what their doing will out last those that do not-(Natural selection) I feel compelled to Advertise. I have to pay the bills and eat. But I get most of my students through referrals. If you are doing a great job-your students will gladly refer you to people they know. I am glad there are Bastardized schools out there- to the effect when someone who has been to one of these "" Bastardized dojos" come in and observe our classes in session, there is a noticeable difference. In closing, TMA has indeed evolved and will continue to do so. The only constant in the univers IS change I promise I along with regulars to MT will do our best to keep hard core TMA alive.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 22, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> Xue Sheng, I respectfully disagree with you on this one. TMA has survived almost two thousand years. I submitt those folks you speak of that really know what their doing will out last those that do not-(Natural selection) I feel compelled to Advertise. I have to pay the bills and eat. But I get most of my students through referrals. If you are doing a great job-your students will gladly refer you to people they know. I am glad there are Bastardized schools out there- to the effect when someone who has been to one of these "" Bastardized dojos" come in and observe our classes in session, there is a noticeable difference. In closing, TMA has indeed evolved and will continue to do so. The only constant in the univers IS change I promise I along with regulars to MT will do our best to keep hard core TMA alive.


 
No problem

Most of what I am talking about is CMA and from what I have seen, particularly in my immediate area, and some outside of my area (mostly CMA IMA schools) is the ones that really know the style they claim to teach tend not to advertise. And I have absolutely no problem with advertising; I wish the guy that was my Wing Chun Sifu would. He would have a rather successful school if he did but he does not advertise and gets just about all of his students by word of mouth. My Taiji Sifu is, from my experience, a typical older traditional CMA guy that was born, raised and trained in China and they tend to not talk about their MA outside of their piers and students. And advertising is absolutely out of the question. My much younger than my taiji Sifu, born raised and trained in China Sanda Sifu is the same way. 

Yes TMA has been around for a long time and yes it is still around but are there as many qualified teachers around today as there was say 10 years ago? And although there are still good, well trained teachers out there (that do and do not advertise) they are by far fewer that those that should not be teaching or do not have a complete grasps of the style they teach or combine styles and use the name of one of them and call it something it is not. 

So you have, just as an example, 10 students that learn well and say about 50% of them decide to go teach. The McDojos down the street has 100 students and 50% of them decide to go teach. You now have 5 good teacher and 50 questionable. Of the 5 you taught 1 decides that if he/she makes it easier they will have more students and make more money and now you have 4 good teachers and 51 questionable. This is of course not saying that of that 50 questionable a few will not decide they need more training and go find a good teacher and become good at what they do but it is doubtful that 25 of them will do that. 

I ran into a gentleman that was very well trained in Hapkido in Korea and his son was incredible at it as well. But he gave up somewhere along the way and started teaching bad TKD his students were awful. To be honest I do not blame him for what happened but the students that he got that did not want to work at Hapkido or just wanted belts or didn&#8217;t want to get hurt or didn&#8217;t want to put in the time and then he had to make the decision train what I know and eventually loose my business or make it easier and still get paid. 

My first CMA Sifu said to me once &#8220;I cannot train students here like I do in China&#8221; and the day he taught Chen Old Loajia Yilu he proved it. It started with 60 students and ended with 6 and he never ever taught another class like that again and he now teaches crap but he has a lot of students and advertises in multiple magazines were the guy down the street teaching the real Wing Chun has classes of never more than 6 and sometimes 1 in a class.


----------



## teekin (Sep 22, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> No problem
> 
> Most of what I am talking about is CMA and from what I have seen, particularly in my immediate area, and some outside of my area (mostly CMA IMA schools) is the ones that really know the style they claim to teach tend not to advertise. And I have absolutely no problem with advertising; I wish the guy that was my Wing Chun Sifu would. He would have a rather successful school if he did but he does not advertise and gets just about all of his students by word of mouth. My Taiji Sifu is, from my experience, a typical older traditional CMA guy that was born, raised and trained in China and they tend to not talk about their MA outside of their piers and students. And advertising is absolutely out of the question. My much younger than my taiji Sifu, born raised and trained in China Sanda Sifu is the same way.
> 
> ...


 
  Quality over Quantity. I bet if you asked the guy down the street who has the 1 student who works his *** off if he would trade the 1 dedicated student for the 60 posers you get decided NO! You have to winnow through 100 tons of slag to find 1 diamond. I believe it's worth the effort.
 Lori


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 22, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Quality over Quantity. I bet if you asked the guy down the street who has the 1 student who works his *** off if he would trade the 1 dedicated student for the 60 posers you get decided NO! You have to winnow through 100 tons of slag to find 1 diamond. I believe it's worth the effort.
> Lori


 
True and I would much rather see quality not quantity but sadly there is little quality but there is quantity. 

But in some cases word of mouth gets you in trouble too. My Taiji sifu when I started we were a small group of not more than about 6 and as people talked more came but few stayed, Taiji is not a martial art you know and we were training martial arts. Now (13 years later) his advanced class is about a dozen but all of us that were there in the beginning are now gone and I have been labeled disruptive by his current students (although sifu does not know this yet and I am not quite sure if I should approach him with it or not) but you see I still believe taiji is a martial art and I believe that Tuishou is very important but they want to do forms, talk a bit and go home. He does not advertise and the class is still small, twice what it once was but still small, but there is no longer quality in the students that are there. He would teach it if they wanted it, they just don't want it.

As for the man that was my Wing Chun sifu he trains hard and it hurts early in the training so posers don't stay long.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> There is a reason why TMA have survived for this long and that rerason is because it IS effective in real combat.


 

That is not necessarily so. Not that TMA are not effective, but being around for a long time is not proof of effectiveness.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Until these type events start showing fighters from a TMA background .


 

Well, there's nothing stopping them.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I find those who invariably denigrate MMA are those who have never been to a show .


 

I think some folks want to see MMA competition that looks like the forms and drills in whatever their TMA is. A real fight just ain't gonna look like that, so they are never likely to be satisfied.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Well, there's nothing stopping them.


No, and the good MMA fighters generally have a strong background in one or more TMA, be it taekwondo, jujustu, or something else.  I'm hardly an MMA authority, but I do read some of the fighter bios here and there, and nearly all the ones that I recall had the majority of their training in one art, with training in others to round them out.

Daniel


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> I think some folks want to see MMA competition that looks like the forms and drills in whatever their TMA is. A real fight just ain't gonna look like that, so they are never likely to be satisfied.


 
A real fight in TMA doen't look like that either.


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> That is not necessarily so. Not that TMA are not effective, but being around for a long time is not proof of effectiveness.


 
To some extent it is true.  If it didn't work people would not do it and it would eventually be forgotten over the years.  Why else would a martial art still be around?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> I think some folks want to see MMA competition that looks like the forms and drills in whatever their TMA is. A real fight just ain't gonna look like that, so they are never likely to be satisfied.


Nor will it look like MMA.  Competative MMA isn't a real fight, regardless of how its promoted.

Daniel


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Nor will it look like MMA.


 

It will look a heck of a lot more like that than anything you are likely to see at a forms competition or a TMA demo.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Why else would a martial art still be around?


 


As a cultural practice, as a way of connecting to history, as a form of self-identification. Lots of reasons.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> It will look a heck of a lot more like that than anything you are likely to see at a forms competition or a TMA demo.


 
Ah but you should see the way we fight TMA, full contact karate, wonderful!!
If you watch a lot of MMA you will learn to see many moves from kata! Iain Abernethy is the best person to learn from where Bunkai and fighting is concerned.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> A real fight in TMA doen't look like that either.


 

Unfortunately, too many will never know that.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Unfortunately, too many will never know that.


 
Well to be honest, I can't argue that point because I agree.


----------



## teekin (Sep 24, 2008)

Please excuse me for saying this, realize I am very new to all MA's and a great deal of it I find downright odd and baffling ( like this " Sensei doesn't teach you every thing he knows " crap. Why the hell not! Sensei needs to get over himself and pass the knowledge on. Unless he passes the knowledge on he has Failed as a Sensei)but;
 stop whining that no one will ever see it, make 30 or 40 videos of some smoking cool fights of full contact Karate and air them. U-TUBE. You have global access. You have a data base here of how many? Post a video. Post a still series. 
Where there is a will there is a way.  Just Do it! Lori M


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 24, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> That is not necessarily so. Not that TMA are not effective, but being around for a long time is not proof of effectiveness.



I would disagree with that statement on many levels. The martial art warriors of antiquity proved their proficiency with empty hands and with martial weapons on the battle field for thousands of years Being around a longtime adds to TMA's legitimacy. Lest we not forget the True nature of martial Arts was to effectively Kill their opponent in combat. Analogy for you- how long has the wheel been in exsistance. not much change in its design- proof of its effectiveness!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 24, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> It will look a heck of a lot more like that than anything you are likely to see at a forms competition or a TMA demo.


That wasn't the point.  

The point is that a mainstream tournament match, be it MMA, TMA, or anything else, differs greatly from a real fight or self defense scenario and anyone even passingly familiar with martial arts, TMA or MMA, knows this.  Also, not all TMA's have forms.

In any case, I disagree with your original comment for other reasons.


Unkogami said:


> I think some folks want to see MMA competition that looks like the forms and drills in whatever their TMA is. A real fight just ain't gonna look like that, so they are never likely to be satisfied.


 Nobody ever wanted a ring fight to look like forms and drills, or a forms competition or demo.  TMA has had fighting tournaments for as long as there've been TMA's.  Even those not involved in martial arts know this.  

Probably the biggest thing that some folks 'want' to see is more stand up fighting, and this is because they're used to it due to decades of televised boxing and either can't follow it and/or get bored once it goes to the ground.  

Daniel


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 24, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Please excuse me for saying this, realize I am very new to all MA's and a great deal of it I find downright odd and baffling ( like this " Sensei doesn't teach you every thing he knows " crap. Why the hell not! Sensei needs to get over himself and pass the knowledge on. Unless he passes the knowledge on he has Failed as a Sensei)but;
> stop whining that no one will ever see it, make 30 or 40 videos of some smoking cool fights of full contact Karate and air them. U-TUBE. You have global access. You have a data base here of how many? Post a video. Post a still series.
> Where there is a will there is a way. Just Do it! Lori M


 
I beleive it was Chen Fa Ke who said he kept no secrets from his students. It was hard enough to learn Taiji if you had all the information without it is was impossible.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 24, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Please excuse me for saying this, realize I am very new to all MA's and a great deal of it I find downright odd and baffling ( like this " Sensei doesn't teach you every thing he knows " crap. Why the hell not! Sensei needs to get over himself and pass the knowledge on. Unless he passes the knowledge on he has Failed as a Sensei)


Sadly, this is not exclusive to MA.  I worked in the music biz for several years and a lot of otherwise good guitar teachers withold their 'signature' techniques, frequently because the teachers still gig and don't want to get shown up by their own student with their own technique.  In some cases, I've seen teachers purposefully _not_ correct a student's bad habit precisely because it will keep the student a peg or two lower than themselves.  

I abhore the mentality.  Its generally due to insecurity.  Also, the teacher wants you to see his or her excellent student and then say, 'you see how good he/she is?  Well, I taught them everything they know, but not everything that I know' so that you'll say, "wow."  Pathetic really.  You're either a teacher or a competitor.  I instruct kendo and so I won't enter any competitions against my students.  I teach them everything I know and want to see them shine, not get shown up by some some instructor who needs an ego trip.

Daniel


----------



## teekin (Sep 24, 2008)

Well then it's the Masters who are sinking the TMA boat, not John Q Public. I Want to see real full contact Karate! I Want to see traditional Kata, combat Judo, San Da, and what have you. I just do not have the option. I expose myself to what I can, but it is a tiny fraction of what is out there.
 I'm lucky to have access to a brilliant technician to have my many questions answered and to show me any techniques that might be of use. If I didn't have this guide I'd be screwed. I might want to know but wouldn't have a hot clue of where to even Start looking.
 Perhaps a bit of house cleaning is in order. Humbley, Jane Q Public
 lori


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 24, 2008)

Actually, Grendel, John Q Public is part of the problem because the masters are dependent upon John Q Public for income.  But I do agree that the blame lays largely with many of the masters (not all) for bowing to John Q Public much, much more than they needed to.  They figured out that by bowing to John Q Public more than they really had to, they could truncate and water down their art and make tons more money than they ever could have made if they'd kept it truly traditional, while screwing John Q Public in the process.    

Thus the McDojo.

Daniel


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 24, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Nobody ever wanted a ring fight to look like forms and drills, or a forms competition or demo.


 

Lots of people do. You see them on forums like this all the time.


----------



## teekin (Sep 25, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Actually, Grendel, John Q Public is part of the problem because the masters are dependent upon John Q Public for income. But I do agree that the blame lays largely with many of the masters (not all) for bowing to John Q Public much, much more than they needed to. They figured out that by bowing to John Q Public more than they really had to, *they could truncate and water down their art and make tons more money than they ever could have made if they'd kept it truly traditional,* while screwing John Q Public in the process.
> 
> Thus the McDojo.
> 
> Daniel


 
But I *AM *the public. And I don't want watered down crap! I get pissed off and argue if everything isn't explained to the nth degree. "ya, that looks fine" aint going to fly. I want every technique torn apart, dissected, analysed and then reconstructed, and I'll won't be happy ( and neither will sensei:angel till it is! I am Not unique in this regard. ( at least I don't think so)
Lori


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 25, 2008)

I would love to see full contact tournements as well...like the old school ones that Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace used to compete in.  You just don't see that anymore.

The problem isn't that John Q. Public doesn't want to see this....the problem is that John Q. Public's largely extended family doesn't want to see this.  The MAJORITY of the public isn't interested in seeing stylized fighting...they are more interested in seeing people beating the crap out of eachother in general, whether they use technique or not.

But, I think Chuck Norris actually has the Combat Fighting League, which is more along the lines of the full-contact circuit of the days of yore.  I've only seen a couple of fights from it, but it seems to be different from the run-of-the-mill UFC stuff.  The problem is that UFC is mainstream, while the CFL is not quite underground, but certainly not as popular.

Now, don't get me wrong:  I'll still watch UFC, just because I enjoy seeing fights.  I used to keep up with boxing back in the day, before UFC really blew up.  

But really, it's all a trend, just like everything else is out there.  Backstreet Boys and N'Sync used to be the flavor of the hour, and that ended....thankfully.  UFC is now hitting popular status...within the last 3 or 4 years.  I can't really say when the UFC will lose its popularity, but it will, for one reason or another, just like everything else does.  

I don't necessarily want to see it trail off; instead, I would love to see full-contact old-school tournements make a comeback.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 25, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Nobody ever wanted a ring fight to look like forms and drills, or a forms competition or demo.





Unkogami said:


> Lots of people do. You see them on forums like this all the time.


I've yet to see that on this or any other forum I've been associated with.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 25, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> But I *AM *the public. And I don't want watered down crap! I get pissed off and argue if everything isn't explained to the nth degree. "ya, that looks fine" aint going to fly. I want every technique torn apart, dissected, analysed and then reconstructed, and I'll won't be happy ( and neither will sensei:angel till it is! I am Not unique in this regard. ( at least I don't think so)
> Lori


Actually, you are unique.  

Those of us who want non watered down or truncated curriculum are in the minority.  Those of us who were actually serious about martial arts have always been in the minority.  

A lot of people want a black belt.  A lot of people just want to 'take karate' and a lot of people want exercise and don't want to join a gym.  Then a lot of people want inexpensive after school services and summer camp for their kids with a black belt for their kid at the tail end of it.

The problem with the general public is that they treat the school owner like they do the waiter at TGI Friday's.  When they don't feel they've gotten what they wanted, they complain and if necesary, threaten a lawsuit.  Unfortunately, the general public doesn't educate themselves about martial arts and really don't know what they want.  They have a vague idea in the back of their minds, and oddly enough, it resembles McDojo.  They also feel that throwing money at a school means that they _deserve_ a belt.

The masters who have caved to this, and many have, contrived the McDojo.  It is exactly what the public wanted.  The regular guy wants to be treated as if he or his kid were Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Dolph Lundgren, or Jackie Chan, but they don't have any concept of the dedication involved in being what those men were/are.  Nor do they care.  They just want the belt they didn't earn for skills they never developed to impress people they don't like.

The sad truth.

Daniel


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 25, 2008)

> I Want to see real full contact Karate!


 So you want to see people ctrippled and killed?  That is what happens with real Karate being done full contact



> I would love to see full contact tournements as well...like the old school ones that Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace used to compete in. You just don't see that anymore.


  these still had rules thusly they where watered down versions of what could have been done.  YES I also enjoy those old tournaments but only the ones when they wore no protective gear.  Even then there where rules .


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 25, 2008)

> Quote:
> I Want to see real full contact Karate!
> So you want to see people ctrippled and killed?  That is what happens with real Karate being done full contact
> 
> ...



I completely agree with Shadowchaser on that one. 'Full contact Karate'? Pretty much anyone who uses that phrase has no concept of what they are saying. Full contact is two guys mashing each other until one of them dies. It's not a sport and it's not done in a ring of any sort. As for all those 'old style' tournaments. Ask those guys who competed in them if they would do it all again if they had the choice of wearing protective gear. Anyone with any modicum of common sense will rather take the protective gear. I'm as traditonally inclined as it gets. I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.



> I want every technique torn apart, dissected, analysed and then reconstructed, and I'll won't be happy ( and neither will sensei:angel till it is!


 Shimeijurasan. 'A level of exactitude and perfection that is the goal of (though beyond the reach of) all martial artists.' To quote Dr. Westwood.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 25, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I would love to see full contact tournements as well...like the old school ones that Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace used to compete in. You just don't see that anymore.
> 
> The problem isn't that John Q. Public doesn't want to see this....the problem is that John Q. Public's largely extended family doesn't want to see this. The MAJORITY of the public isn't interested in seeing stylized fighting...they are more interested in seeing people beating the crap out of eachother in general, whether they use technique or not.
> 
> ...


 

When you say UFC you do realise that it's a company, a business? the UFC is not a sport or a style it's a promotion owned by people who are looking to make money off of it. There's a lot of MMA comps going on out there, a lot of MMA fighters. UFC may come and go but MMA is likely to go on for a vey long time.
I would stress time and time again go and look at MMA beyond the UFC, see whats really going on and how good the sport really is. Don't judge MMA by the UFC, it's popular of course but not the be all and end all of MMA.


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 25, 2008)

> When you say UFC you do realise that it's a company, a business? the UFC is not a sport or a style it's a promotion owned by people who are looking to make money off of it. There's a lot of MMA comps going on out there, a lot of MMA fighters. UFC may come and go but MMA is likely to go on for a vey long time.
> I would stress time and time again go and look at MMA beyond the UFC, see whats really going on and how good the sport really is. Don't judge MMA by the UFC, it's popular of course but not the be all and end all of MMA.



I think the very fact that the Difference between what the UFC is and what MMA are is a sign that there is a major problem in what is being force fed to people. 
It's like when you try to explain to someone that you do Karate. They seem to instantly conjure images of Shotokan karate. Even people who are already martial artists do it. There are just labels slapped all over everything and Dojos are being given classfication by style. Fact is even if you train in a dojo of the same 'style' as another, what's actually being taught is gonna be different in each one.
So I whole heartedly agree that you need to look deeper than the labels being slapped on to stuff.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 25, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> I completely agree with Shadowchaser on that one. 'Full contact Karate'? Pretty much anyone who uses that phrase has no concept of what they are saying. Full contact is two guys mashing each other until one of them dies. It's not a sport and it's not done in a ring of any sort. As for all those 'old style' tournaments. Ask those guys who competed in them if they would do it all again if they had the choice of wearing protective gear. Anyone with any modicum of common sense will rather take the protective gear. I'm as traditonally inclined as it gets. I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.
> 
> Shimeijurasan. 'A level of exactitude and perfection that is the goal of (though beyond the reach of) all martial artists.' To quote Dr. Westwood.


 
The old tournements had rules that had to be followed, and I guess this could be perceived as being watered down.

But those old tournements were just as brutal as the UFC is now...people still get hurt, even within those rulesets.  The goal shouldn't be to maim and kill, it should be to score on your opponent and possibly knock them out.  Big difference from trying to maim or kill your opponent.

Full contact with padding is just as entertaining as without padding, to me.  I would still rather compete and watch tournements without padding, all the same...but under a safe ruleset.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 25, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> The old tournements had rules that had to be followed, and I guess this could be perceived as being watered down.
> 
> But those old tournements were just as brutal *as the UFC is now...*people still get hurt, even within those rulesets. The goal shouldn't be to maim and kill, it should be to score on your opponent and possibly knock them out. Big difference from trying to maim or kill your opponent.
> 
> Full contact with padding is just as entertaining as without padding, to me. I would still rather compete and watch tournements without padding, all the same...but under a safe ruleset.


 

I wasted my time typing really didn't I?

The UFC is not MMA. There are different rules sets in MMA - amateur, semi pro and pro rules - and much of it even the UFC is far from 'brutal' it's a game, a competition, a tournament, a sport etc etc.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 25, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> When you say UFC you do realise that it's a company, a business? the UFC is not a sport or a style it's a promotion owned by people who are looking to make money off of it. There's a lot of MMA comps going on out there, a lot of MMA fighters. UFC may come and go but MMA is likely to go on for a vey long time.
> I would stress time and time again go and look at MMA beyond the UFC, see whats really going on and how good the sport really is. Don't judge MMA by the UFC, it's popular of course but not the be all and end all of MMA.


I have some friends at work that are always asking me about my martial arts and the discussion inevitably drifts to boxing and the UFC.  Generally, they want my take on this that or the other fighter.  It took a year and a half of my constantly callling it 'mma' before they collectively stopped calling MMA, "UFC style fighting."  Then I moved to a different building, but I stop over to chat with them and they're back to calling it UFC style fighting.  At this point, a couple of them even watch MMA other than the UFC, but they always call it UFC.  

I think that this is probably part out of habit; the UFC is most people's first exposure to MMA, and part out of a desire to have people know what they're talking about on some level, so they categorize it as 'UFC' so that their aunt/uncle/cousin/brother/sister/nephew/coworker/buddies can have common ground in the conversation.  Many people I know still call all unarmed martial arts either karate or kung fu, except MMA, which they all call UFC.

It seems that once a brand becomes synonymous with a type, then the type is always referred to by the branded name, regardless of who it is really associated with.  Anyone remember when all headphone AM/FM/Cassette players were called 'Walkman?'

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm not using UFC as the company itself, just as a broad term.  I figured that the way I was describing things in my post, that it would be made clear that's how I was referring to MMA events.  I appologize if that wasn't clear, and I will make sure I'm more specific.

First, UFC is the most popular COMPANY for providing MMA styled events to the public.  Though they have different rulesets than other MMA styled events, the concept is still the same.  The general public sees this as what MMA is, and equates everything that comes under a full-contact competition as being UFC, since this is their perception of what MMA is.

When I say that UFC is what's popular right now, I mean both the company AND MMA as a sport as well.  If you think about it, UFC is the main media that is bringing MMA to the general public.  If UFC loses steam, and another company is not able to pick up where UFC left off, then MMA is going to be far less popular to the general public.

By general public, I'm referring to the average Joe on the street that knows nothing about martial arts at all, but enjoys watching fights. 

If the public actually got to watch the old-style tournements, such as the ones Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, and Benny Urquidez used to compete in, I think they, the general public, the average guy off the street would actually get behind that just as much UFC, the company, as well as any other MMA organization that's out there and popular, as well as MMA styled tournements, no matter what the ruleset.

Please let me know if this is still not clear, and I'll try to be more specific, and I appologize for the non-clarity in my previous post.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 25, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> If the public actually got to watch the old-style tournements, such as the ones Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, and Benny Urquidez used to compete in, I think they, the general public, the average guy off the street would actually get behind that just as much UFC, the company, as well as any other MMA organization that's out there and popular, as well as MMA styled tournements, no matter what the ruleset.


 
I agree-a nice thought!


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 25, 2008)

In addition, I would like to add that if people are actually wanting to see REAL fights, with no rules, I would suggest looking this up on youtube.  

That is what the UFC started out as...UFC the company, that is....back when the Gracies ran the show.  The reason that UFC the company is so popular now is because it changed the format to include rules to protect the fighters, and made it more interesting.  Even though it started out as a PPV event and did not make it to cable or primetime television, it still had a period when the general public did not have as much interest.  

When UFC, the company, actually started to air on SpikeTV on cable, the popularity soared, and MMA styled events, thanks to UFC the company, became popular as well.

I don't think watching real fights is very entertaining.  I think things need rules to be engaging, and there needs to be a margin of safety.  In my humble opinion, this is why the original airings of the UFC programs (run by the Gracies, starting in 1993, on PPV...not MMA in general) did not catch on with the general public.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 25, 2008)

UFC is only synonymous with MMA in the States I'm afraid, the rest of the world has it's own identifiers. The UFC isn't hugely popular here although it has had a couple of shows here, it's over hyped, they charge too much and don't have that good a quality of fighters on the shows. Here, of the foreign shows, Pride was always far more popular. We value our own home grown promotions as do other countries. Germany has some big shows as does Poland. Russsia of course has some very big shows.
On Saturday I'm going to the M1 show which is a huge promotion with shows in Europe, Russia and Asia. The Russian Red Devils team is competing.
http://www.cagewarriors.com/article.158.htm
In the States if UFC declines I believe Elite have a good chance of taking their place? if theres a vacancy someone will fill it.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 25, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> UFC is only synonymous with MMA in the States I'm afraid, the rest of the world has it's own identifiers. The UFC isn't hugely popular here although it has had a couple of shows here, it's over hyped, they charge too much and don't have that good a quality of fighters on the shows. Here, of the foreign shows, Pride was always far more popular. We value our own home grown promotions as do other countries. Germany has some big shows as does Poland. Russsia of course has some very big shows.
> On Saturday I'm going to the M1 show which is a huge promotion with shows in Europe, Russia and Asia. The Russian Red Devils team is competing.
> http://www.cagewarriors.com/article.158.htm
> In the States if UFC declines I believe Elite have a good chance of taking their place? if theres a vacancy someone will fill it.


 
I  could see Elite XC taking over...it's being broadcast on CBS here, so they're trying to hit primetime with it.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 25, 2008)

It has been my experience- at least in my area MMA stands for mixed up martial arts. In my town we have a MMA "school" (Just to clarify I am NOT bashing MMA in general) at leasts one of the "coaches" over threre if not all of them teaching haven't earned a black belt in ANYTHING. Some of them have achieved mid-level ranks in HKD and TKD. When they go to compititions-thier school does't do well. In my opinion, it's like the blind leading the blind. I beleive you SHOULD be well-rounded and so should your students. If I am not mistaken when the Gracies promoted the UFC, in the early 90's they did dominate that particular "sport" but people started to watch the "game" films of them and fighters adapted to their particular weaknesses. It has been said, 90% of all "fights" go to the ground. But 99.9% start standing. Locally speaking, the pay-off for the win is not as much as the hospital bills you could incurr participating in a MMA event. There is a risk you take in all MA compititions. I have already have seen- the McDojo thing occuring in MMA schools. I hope I didn't offend any MMA people. It was not my intention-just expressing my observations. There are other cool fighting sports like, Pride fighting,      K-1 and Shidokan. On a different note, I am impressed with GSP.


----------



## teekin (Sep 25, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> I completely agree with Shadowchaser on that one. *'Full contact Karate'? Pretty much anyone who uses that phrase has no concept of what they are saying.* Full contact is two guys mashing each other until one of them dies. It's not a sport and it's not done in a ring of any sort. As for all those 'old style' tournaments. Ask those guys who competed in them if they would do it all again if they had the choice of wearing protective gear. Anyone with any modicum of common sense will rather take the protective gear. I'm as traditonally inclined as it gets. *I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.*
> 
> Shimeijurasan. 'A level of exactitude and perfection that is the goal of (though beyond the reach of) all martial artists.' To quote Dr. Westwood.


 
I fully admit my ignorance of Karate. I am seeking an education. Finding it has proven to be a bit of a challange. Thus the post. Your attitude helps do you think? I try not to bleed, do sweat, and do not cry (no matter how ****ing frusterated I am) at practice. I do yell! I do NOT actively try ( well not as a rule, sometimes things kind of... happen) to hurt my training partners, so I am then a waste of mat space, IYHO. Once again, do you think this kind of attitude is helping your chosen sport?
lori


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 25, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> So you want to see people ctrippled and killed? That is what happens with real Karate being done full contact.


 

How do you know?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 25, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Well then it's the Masters who are sinking the TMA boat, not John Q Public. I Want to see real full contact Karate! I Want to see traditional Kata, combat Judo, San Da, and what have you. I just do not have the option. I expose myself to what I can, but it is a tiny fraction of what is out there.


Full contact karate in the context of a tournament means that blows are delivered with full force to specified targets and protective gear of some sort is worn to account for that.  WTF style sparring is full contact, and if you consider taekwondo to be karate, then it would be a form of that.  Kyokushin tournaments are full contact if I'm not mistaken (Dolph Lundgren has a kyokushin background and was a heavyweight champion in some full contact tournaments as I recall).  

Within the context of the dojo, full contact is not generally part of training unless it is sparring in the sport aspect of the style, whatever it may be.  Personally, I'm a big fan of a more focused curriculum with just enough added to fill in some gaps.  For example, a traditional taekwondo with maybe some sweeps and takedowns along with a little practical SD, but otherwise, keep it taekwondo.  



Grendel308 said:


> I'm lucky to have access to a brilliant technician to have my many questions answered and to show me any techniques that might be of use. If I didn't have this guide I'd be screwed. I might want to know but wouldn't have a hot clue of where to even Start looking.
> Perhaps a bit of house cleaning is in order.
> Humbley, Jane Q Public
> lori


Many people are screwed, sadly.  Unfortunately, most people enroll in or enroll their kids in whatever the local school is, no questions asked.  And for what most people are _really_ after, that's okay.  But the funny thing is, they do no research whatsoever.  Those same people will go to _every _dealership and hound every salesman until they get the best price on a car, usually saving no more than a couple thousand.  But in a dojo with a contract, they can easilly spend that much, and they can do so at a lousy school to boot.  With a little research, they could likely find a less expesive place with higher quality.

Out of curiosity, what style of MA is your dojo?

Daniel


----------



## teekin (Sep 25, 2008)

The school with "the Technician" is MMA. The striking I don't like so much, likely because I suck at it, the ground work, I love. ( jujitsui!!!!!)

The Dojo is Judo, and again has a fantastic teachers who competes at internaional level. Small classes of highly motivated students and open generous sensei.

Your answer to me on Karate was very helpful, thankyou.
Lori


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 25, 2008)

UNkogami

I have sent you my answer on this.

now back to the topic

Without rules accidents and worse happen.  Even with rules people are hurt and killed at times.  This happens with or without pads.
Old Time tournaments had rules but blood was spilled often and heated rivalries between competitors and schools happened.  The grabbing of the uniform as you pounded on someone was always used.  Throws where allowed, and contact after the throw by either competitor was allowed.   Groin kicks where allowed.  Pads where for sissies in those day ( when pads  first came into vogue).  
When things started getting they often got worse match by match.  Judges had a hard time keeping the violence down, that is when they even tried to.  Often threats and fights outside the building occurred. 
Still having said all that it was a great time and I miss some of it .  You defiantly knew who knew their stuff and you had to know how to take a punch/kick and how to protect yourself.  Even with those that hated each other there was a grudging respect.

Today things are different.  Almost all tournament are run so ridged that bad feeling rarely develop.  Tournaments are &#8220;FRIENDLY&#8221; and all are there to have a good time and make friends


----------



## BrandonLucas (Sep 25, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> UNkogami
> 
> I have sent you my answer on this.
> 
> ...


 
I miss alot of that too.  I'm not old enough to have been brought up in the old tournement circuit (I'm 26), but I consider myself "old school" in regards to what I would prefer a tournement to be.

I have never gotten to attend a real full-contact tournement as they used to be.  I've only done a few back-yard scraps with friends, just to see how we would hold up.  Nothing serious.  I wish I could have experienced the full-contact experience without the pads that we wear in class now.

But then, I'm glad that I have pads sometimes...alot of times...as there are alot of people who hit hard.  

And I love the "friendly" atmosphere in tournements now.  I prefer the sportsmanship over feuding, even if I'm watching a match.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 26, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> The school with "the Technician" is MMA. The striking I don't like so much, likely because I suck at it, the ground work, I love. ( jujitsui!!!!!)
> 
> The Dojo is Judo, and again has a fantastic teachers who competes at internaional level. Small classes of highly motivated students and open generous sensei.
> 
> ...


You're very welcome!  Glad to be of help.

Sounds like you have a good school.  I particularly like the breaking down of techniques that you mentioned.  Our old head taekwondo instructor, Master Yeo, used to do that.  

One word of advice: if your' weak point is striking, get as much of it as you can.  As the saying goes, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.  One of the reasons I took up hapkido was that I have the opposite perspective: I am adept in striking, but less skilled in locks and throws.  I'm 6'4 and short torsoed and long limbed.  I wanted something that I could use in a practical SD scenario should an assailant get past my strke zone.

I'd love to train at a traditional judo school, though sadly, I don't have the time to broaden my studies for the forseeable future.  

Daniel


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Oct 6, 2008)

> I do NOT actively try ( well not as a rule, sometimes things kind of... happen) to hurt my training partners, so I am then a waste of mat space, IYHO. Once again, do you think this kind of attitude is helping your chosen sport?



Sorry dood, but did you read my post? You highlighted this I think:

*I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.

*Please read it again in case I've made an error. I'm not actually trying to insult you. What I'm saying is you're a poor martial artist if you're training with the sole intent at seriously damaging either your training partners or potential competitors. So yeah an attitude like that is good for my way (I'm not a sportsman, I don't train to compete). Also my blood sweat and tears attitude I stick by. Personally I've never actively cried on the mats. However that's not to say my eyes haven't watered after a good shot to the groin (box or no box it hurts like hell!). I always expect to puch my body a bit in every session so I expect to sweat, besides if you do a warm up effectively you will sweat anyways. And as for blood, if you train with live knives at some point you will get cut, hell I got stabbed right on the tip of my chin, how unlucky is that?

Anyways, I didn't want to cause you or anyone any offense, I was just airing an opinion as to if someone were training solely because they wanted to hurt someone.




> I'd love to train at a traditional judo school, though sadly, I don't have the time to broaden my studies for the forseeable future.



I actually started my training in Judo when it was on my highschool curriculum. It served as an excellent base to build on and I'm grateful I got to do it. So if you find somewhere to practice, go for it.

Blimey, I'm offline for a week and I miss all the interesting posts....


----------



## BrandonLucas (Oct 6, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Blimey, I'm offline for a week and I miss all the interesting posts....


 
Me too.


----------



## teekin (Oct 7, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> *Sorry dood, but did you read my post?* You highlighted this I think:
> 
> *I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.*
> 
> ...


 
I'm a dudette,* and I did misread it. My bad.* And I have an unfortunate habit of "things" happening to my training partners in MMA classes. Oddly enough I get badgered for not being aggresive enough in MMA classes and have to fight like a wildcat in Judo Randori, Christ they are rough.( there, I wish I could punch and I do elbow. I also found out about _"kicking_" for hooks. nice) They are all about competing and _Winning,_ strategic interpretation of the rules. This should be an education.
Lori


----------



## hogstooth (Oct 9, 2008)

This is the never ending question that has been asked from real practitioners for years. How can they stay open while teaching inferior methods and promoting 5 yr old to black belt? It doesn't matter. The bottom line is if a student is serious they will search out a reputable school with a qualified teacher. The problem is the fast food mentality of society today. If you can get your BB in a yr or 2 why would you go to a dojo that it takes longer. They don't think about whether they are getting good instruction or if they are as proficient as a BB in another school. All they know is they reach the same goal with little effort and in a shorter time. 
It's really sad but I have seen it myself. I had a student that quit after two weeks training. When I asked him why, he said that in his old school they didn't work this hard and they never had any contact. They pulled all of their punches and kicks and he had never been hit before. He also said that he expected to progress faster. I asked him what he meant due to the fact that he had only taken 4 clasess. He said that he was promoted to yellow belt after the first week and his sensei told him he could expect to see BB with in the year. I asked him what he thought of the yellow belts in my class and asked him to compair their skill level to his as a yellow belt in the other school. He said he didn't like sparring with my yellow belts because they didn't fight the way he was taught. I asked him to spar with me and I can admit we do not spar the same way. He was throwing punches a good foot from me. He was trying a lot of jumping kicks a good two feet from making contact. I stopped him and told him the facts about my art and how long he could expect to train before reaching BB. He quit right then and said he would be going back to the McDojo even though it costed more. I just had to laugh.


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Oct 15, 2008)

> I'm a dudette,* and I did misread it. My bad.* And I have an unfortunate habit of "things" happening to my training partners in MMA classes. Oddly enough I get badgered for not being aggresive enough in MMA classes and have to fight like a wildcat in Judo Randori, Christ they are rough.( there, I wish I could punch and I do elbow. I also found out about _"kicking_" for hooks. nice) They are all about competing and _Winning,_ strategic interpretation of the rules. This should be an education.
> Lori



Sorry, dudette. I can see where you're coming from with Judo Randori. I was a real weed when I began training so I had a massive disadvantage against all the other kids. I had to learn fast how to throw well and keep my center of gravity lower than my opponent at all times. I've found in Randori you really have to keep on game all the time whereas in most other things I've trained in you can catch a rest now and again when you spar.



> It's really sad but I have seen it myself. I had a student that quit after two weeks training. When I asked him why, he said that in his old school they didn't work this hard and they never had any contact. They pulled all of their punches and kicks and he had never been hit before. He also said that he expected to progress faster. I asked him what he meant due to the fact that he had only taken 4 clasess. He said that he was promoted to yellow belt after the first week and his sensei told him he could expect to see BB with in the year. I asked him what he thought of the yellow belts in my class and asked him to compair their skill level to his as a yellow belt in the other school. He said he didn't like sparring with my yellow belts because they didn't fight the way he was taught. I asked him to spar with me and I can admit we do not spar the same way. He was throwing punches a good foot from me. He was trying a lot of jumping kicks a good two feet from making contact. I stopped him and told him the facts about my art and how long he could expect to train before reaching BB. He quit right then and said he would be going back to the McDojo even though it costed more. I just had to laugh.



I dunno about laughing, I'd have cried. It is sad to see. Instant gratification with little effort and absolutely no base in reality. Such a pity.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 15, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> I dunno about laughing, I'd have cried. It is sad to see. Instant gratification with little effort and absolutely no base in reality. Such a pity.


 
I come form old school TMA, not as old school as some here, but lets just say Enter the dragon was a brand new movie when I started and things have changed..... and not for the better.


----------



## Cirdan (Oct 16, 2008)

hogstooth said:


> It's really sad but I have seen it myself. I had a student that quit after two weeks training. When I asked him why, he said that in his old school they didn't work this hard and they never had any contact. They pulled all of their punches and kicks and he had never been hit before. He also said that he expected to progress faster. I asked him what he meant due to the fact that he had only taken 4 clasess. He said that he was promoted to yellow belt after the first week and his sensei told him he could expect to see BB with in the year. I asked him what he thought of the yellow belts in my class and asked him to compair their skill level to his as a yellow belt in the other school. He said he didn't like sparring with my yellow belts because they didn't fight the way he was taught. I asked him to spar with me and I can admit we do not spar the same way. He was throwing punches a good foot from me. He was trying a lot of jumping kicks a good two feet from making contact. I stopped him and told him the facts about my art and how long he could expect to train before reaching BB. He quit right then and said he would be going back to the McDojo even though it costed more. I just had to laugh.


 
The interesting thing is that this person now really knows he chose wasting his time getting wothless strips of colored cloth instead of taking the opportunity to develop skill.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 16, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> The interesting thing is that this person now really knows he chose wasting his time getting wothless strips of colored cloth instead of taking the opportunity to develop skill.


and is still willing to pay an overinflated price for said cloth.

Daniel


----------



## teekin (Oct 16, 2008)

A worthless psudoeducation for a worthless piece of cloth that requires psudoeffort. Sounds about right. I bet he eats a lot of fast psduofood. ( Why doesn't he just buy a belt off e-bay?) Why be sad, he is getting exactly what he wants. 
 As I explore further and talk to more people I see enough people with enough burning passion ( and the anger and even depression at the perceived loss of the old MA's is Passion) tells me Decline is the wrong word. Transition may be the correct word. And thats ok. Stagnation and ridgidity is death to Art. Art is fluid, flexable. It challanges the expected, the norm, what was yesterday, it strives to reach both the  Heaven and Hades of our Soul. If you want your MA to stagnate and never change is it still an Art? or is it just memorized imitation? humbley
lori


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 17, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> As I explore further and talk to more people I see enough people with enough burning passion ( and the anger and even depression at the perceived loss of the old MA's is Passion) tells me Decline is the wrong word. Transition may be the correct word.


Interesting thought, and great post, Lori!  

In truth, the martial arts experienced a huge tranistion in the late ninteenth/early twentieth century, particularly in Japan, due to the Meigi revolution.  Arts transitioned from jutsu to do and took on a more sporting aspect and civilian application.  The yudansha system was introduced, replacing the older menkyo systems.  The yudansha system's origins being from the game _go_, not from any ancient martial tradition.  The arts were then promoted as means of fitness, spiritual well being, and self improvement as well as for self defense.  We see this today as well.  Of course, we don't have an immediate, martial past where we can say, 'ten years ago...', instead martial arts' martial origins are more than a century behind us and modern society is decidedly nonmartial.



Grendel308 said:


> And thats ok. Stagnation and ridgidity is death to Art. Art is fluid, flexable. It challanges the expected, the norm, what was yesterday, it strives to reach both the Heaven and Hades of our Soul. If you want your MA to stagnate and never change is it still an Art? or is it just memorized imitation? humbley
> lori


Again a good thought.  I agree with you to a great degree.  

My area of divergence is that I don't see most of what goes on in the martial arts over the past twenty years as fluid change, but rather the bleeding off of what is good and valuable and the injection of commercialism, which has nothing to do with art.  All art suffers when commercialism enters the picture in any sort of big way.

Also, I see the term, 'martial art' as somewhat of a misnomer.  A better term would be martial method or fighting method, or martial way.  While the term martial art is appropriate, it is also a bit misleading.  We use the term art for more than one definition.  There is art, as in music, dance, poetry, sculpture, and paintings, then there is 'art' as in the notion that there is an 'art' to piloting a formula one car at over two hundred miles an hour.  That sort of 'art' descibes an unquantified quality of skill that seemingly surpasses mere technical mastery.

Both meanings of the word art can also come together, which at times, I believe they do in the martial arts.  But just like the formula one car that is capable of being driven at 200+, the skill to do so must be present. 

And that is where our martial arts are suffering the most.  

Daniel


----------

