# Escrima question



## Xue Sheng (May 5, 2010)

Escrima question

What can you tell me about Escrima?

Is it weapons only or are there empty hand techniques?

How do you know if a teacher is the real deal or not?


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## wushuguy (May 5, 2010)

Eskrima/Kali/Arnis, FMA in general, has both weapon and empty-hand techniques. The weapons learned first but empty hand matches well with similar principles. Empty hand is easy to do if you have background in wing chun, many things between FMA and wing chun seem to flow well.

As to which teacher is the real deal, it would also depend on your goal I think. similar to CMA, some teachers know the curriculum and can teach it well but are not experienced fighters, while other teachers are more experienced and will perhaps teach differently. In your area, if you could visit a few schools or groups, that would help you to view which style of teaching you'd like and if you can get what you want from that teacher or group.

Also, you can see what kind of students are in the group, and how long they've been there vs the quality of their skill, and if the students have other MA experience, how they feel what they learn from that teacher vs their previous experience.

hope that helps.


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## Rich Parsons (May 5, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Escrima question
> 
> What can you tell me about Escrima?


 
Lots and not in just a short few sentences. The systems vary from stick only to blade only to grappling only, although most have translation and multiple applications with multiple weapons. 



Xue Sheng said:


> Is it weapons only or are there empty hand techniques?


 
Some will only teach the weapons first and then after some knowledge is there then translate to empty hand. The idea was that this was to be used to protect yourself/family/villiage/island and you would grab a tool at hand and use it. 

Some teach the empty hand along with the weapons or have empty hand techniques that later arre tied back into weapon techniques, but as I staterd were part of the list of techniques one learns at a certain part of their training. 



Xue Sheng said:


> How do you know if a teacher is the real deal or not?


 
This is hard. 

Some systems have rank and certificates. But if you do not know them or their org or the people who signed said cert it is hard to vet them. 

A lot of times, it is by reputation, of people who have worked with them or other known instructors saying yeah I have seen him check him out. Which could be taken in many ways as well. i.e. Check him out and come back and show me what he is teaching, to yea I like him/her and you should learn what they have to offer. 

Is there a specific style or person? If so someone here or on the sister site of FMATalk.com might now of them.


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## Blindside (May 5, 2010)

Escrima is usually lumped into the larger grouping of Filipino Martial Arts that includes Kali and Arnis.  Most systems have unarmed components but have weapons as a primary focus.  There is alot of discussion about where the various unarmed pieces came from.  Depending on the system there could be direct influence from non-Filipino sources like judo or aikido or western boxing or claims to linkages to various indiginous wrestling or striking methodologies.    

One of the characteristics of the FMAs is that it is a pretty regular occurance for someone to break off from their instructor and start their own art/interpretation/whatever.  Given the fairly um, hot natured leanings of the FMA practitioners involved this often results in certification revocation, threats of challenge matches, and various other us-against-them posturing, so verification of training lineages can be difficult.  The other thing is that the arts were essentially tribal or family based and only recently come into the public light, there is no 300 year record of lineage to fall back on, mostly the word of whoever you are training with.  I have run into a couple practitioners of family systems where I wasn't all that impressed, could have been the system, could have been the practitioner.  

My standard caveat is to go for the good instructor.  I looked for one that seemed to be producing competent students, pressure tested their work, and had a strong emphasis on practical application.


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## Xue Sheng (May 5, 2010)

Thanks

All I have is "Filipino Escrima- Stick and knife fighting" and there is, as far as I can tell, only one school in my area... but then until a couple of minths ago I didn't know that one was there either.

The teacher tends to stay pretty low key as far as advertising goes and it has been my experience in CMA that low key is a good thing, however I have no idea if that is a good thing in FMA.


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## Blindside (May 5, 2010)

Where are you?  I've run into several backyard groups that don't really advertise.  The nature of FMAs, assuming that they are taught with a pretty applied focus, don't really lend themselves to large commercial ventures.  "OK little Johnny, insert the knife into the femoral artery with an upward thrust, and then pull and twist to the left."  They are often taught adjunct to another art that brings in the kids and pays the bills.


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## Carol (May 5, 2010)

Agree with Blindside.  There are very few full-time FMA schools.  I wouldn't count them out because they are low-key, but I wouldn't assume they are great either.   There are some jokers out there.

Ask the instructor who their teachers were, and how long they studied under each person. Ask if they have rank in any other (non-Filipino) arts, who their teachers were, and how long they trained under each person.  

It would be a good idea to get some opinions of the instructor, either by posting here or in an offline discussion.  Feel free to PM me if you like.


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## geezer (May 6, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Escrima question
> 
> What can you tell me about Escrima?
> 
> ...


 
In the FMAs, the terms Escrima, Arnis and Kali are not applied with any uniformity and can mean a lot of things. Like others have said, it's best to ask who somebody learned from and see what they do.

As far as whether they are the "real deal", again watch what they do, and what kind of instructor they are. Basically the same thing you'd do if you were checking out a CMA instructor, Xue. You've been at this so long you should be able to get a pretty good idea even though it's not an art you've trained in! Good luck.


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## Xue Sheng (May 6, 2010)

I am going to check it out next week

Thanks


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## wushuguy (May 10, 2010)

have you checked it out yet? let us know how it goes!


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## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2010)

wushuguy said:


> have you checked it out yet? let us know how it goes!


 
Thursday, and I will let you know


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## wushuguy (May 17, 2010)

So how was the class?


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2010)

Didn't make it to the class, I got a call from the people that made my knee brace, it was in and I went and picked it up.

I have talked with the teacher and I am going to try and get there this Thursday, if all goes well.


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## geezer (May 25, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Didn't make it to the class, I got a call from the people that made my knee brace, it was in and I went and picked it up.
> 
> I have talked with the teacher and *I am going to try and get there this Thursday,* if all goes well.



OK, did you get there yet? We're still waiting!


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## Xue Sheng (May 26, 2010)

geezer said:


> OK, did you get there yet? We're still waiting!


 
So am I but life keeps getting in the way. 

at this point I am hoping for Thursday, meaning tomorrow but it is already not looking good. It all depends on whether or not a guy is coming to my house to give me an estimate on a repair or not on Thursday or Friday...and neither is good for me. I wanted to check out this class on Thursday and another school on Friday... Damn adult responsibilities it was better as a kid when you could just blow it all off on a whim and blame immaturity


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 14, 2010)

I am still trying to get the time to go check out the Eskrima school I found and I hope to actually get to that next week, but his schedule and mine are not matching to well. However in the process I found another school that I knew was in the area (it was one of the new schools that popped up in the last couple of years) but I thought it only trained Muay Thai so I did not look into it further. Nothing against Muay Thai, if I were younger, not carrying an old back injury and a new torn meniscus I would go give it a try but I think I may be a bit too old and busted up for it these days. It appears they have moved to a new location and now that are teaching, or maybe they were all along and I did not notice, Filipino Kali and their schedule is a bit easier for me to get to. They also teach some other form of Kali called Sayoc that I am absolutely clueless about and need to research a bit.   

But heres the thing, I know little about Escrima and less about Kali and nothing about Sayoc which is why I will be making another post to ask just what the heck the differences are.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 14, 2010)

Xue I like the movement that I see in Sayoc Kali.  This system was heavily influenced by Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali.  Their mantra is "All Blade All The Time".  The only thing I do not like are their training rigs and the costs associated with them.  Still the movement is great!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 14, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Xue I like the movement that I see in Sayoc Kali. This system was heavily influenced by Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali. Their mantra is "All Blade All The Time". The only thing I do not like are their training rigs and the costs associated with them. Still the movement is great!


 

Thanks Brian, I just found this


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## geezer (Jul 14, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Xue I like the movement that I see in Sayoc Kali.  This system was heavily influenced by Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali.  Their mantra is "All Blade All The Time".  The only thing I do not like are their training rigs and the costs associated with them.  Still the movement is great!



Brian... this brings up an interesting point. Certain FMA teach a broad spectrum of combat application, but are conceptually blade-based. Other FMA are more stick-based, even though blade is addressed. Then there are some groups... Sayoc appears to be one, that specialize in blade _alone_. Or Balitawak, that focuses only on stick work, and single-stick at that. I'd like to hear more from different people about what their art teaches. Maybe this would help answer the questions of folks like Xue as well. I'm starting a new thread on this topic. Please join me there and add any input you 'd like to share.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 14, 2010)

geezer said:


> Brian... this brings up an interesting point. Certain FMA teach a broad spectrum of combat application, but are conceptually blade-based. Other FMA are more stick-based, even though blade is addressed. Then there are some groups... Sayoc appears to be one, that specialize in blade _alone_. Or Balitawak, that focuses only on stick work, and single-stick at that. I'd like to hear more from different people about what their art teaches. Maybe this would help answer the questions of folks like Xue as well. I'm starting a new thread on this topic. Please join me there and add any input you 'd like to share.


 
Well based on my vast knowledge of Filipino martial arts (and by vast I mean virtually nonexistent - but I am interested in learning more) I look forward to following that thread.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2010)

Well with a bit of webfu I discovered the following, but I have no idea what any of it really means

School one is apparently 
1) Diestro Escrima 

School 2 is both 
1) Sayoc Kali 
2) Espada y daga Kali

I pretty much got a handle on what Sayoc is but what are the other two (Diestro and Espada y daga) and does it matter?


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## MJS (Jul 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well with a bit of webfu I discovered the following, but I have no idea what any of it really means
> 
> School one is apparently
> 1) Diestro Escrima
> ...


 
Never heard of Diestro escrima.  Espada y daga...stick and knife techs. in the Modern Arnis system.  Are they also found within other arts?  I'm sure.  Is it an art all to itself?  If it is, I've never heard of it.

To clarify a bit more...the espada y daga is where the practitioner has both a stick and blade in their hands at the same time.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> Never heard of Diestro escrima. Espada y daga...stick and knife techs. in the Modern Arnis system. Are they also found within other arts? I'm sure. Is it an art all to itself? If it is, I've never heard of it.
> 
> To clarify a bit more...the espada y daga is where the practitioner has both a stick and blade in their hands at the same time.


 
Could be my lack of knowledge on the subject talking

It was what I saw posted on the websites and it could be just a form within the system now that I think about it.


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## MJS (Jul 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Could be my lack of knowledge on the subject talking
> 
> It was what I saw posted on the websites and it could be just a form within the system now that I think about it.


 
No problem. 

I went onto youtube, typed in espada y daga and these are some results that I got. 

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=espada+y+daga+drills&aq=1


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## geezer (Jul 17, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well with a bit of webfu I discovered the following, but I have no idea what any of it really means
> 
> School one is apparently
> 1) Diestro Escrima
> ...



In FMA there's a lot of stuff out there that nobody's ever heard of. Some good, some not so good. I don't know about "Diestro Escrima". Diestro means right-handed in Spanish, as opposed to Zurdo or "lefty"(sur = south, applied here as in "southpaw"), also it implies "dextrous" or skilled, and could just as easily be a family surname. Now please go visit them and report back and tell us about it!


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## ap Oweyn (Jul 19, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Could be my lack of knowledge on the subject talking
> 
> It was what I saw posted on the websites and it could be just a form within the system now that I think about it.


 
"Espada y daga" is literally "sword and dagger" (from the Spanish).  Though it usually refers to stick and dagger, in my experience.  And can even be used more broadly than that, to describe a pairing of one longer weapon with one shorter one (i.e., literally a sword and a dagger, a stick and a dagger, or a regular-length stick and a shorter stick).

There are probably people who specialize in espada y daga, treating it (for all intents and purposes) as a style.  But it's also often presented as a subset of a larger style.  In Doce Pares, for instance, we learned espada y daga after double stick ("doble baston").  I understand that the San Miguel variant on Doce Pares (and its proponent GM Diony Canete) is particularly big on espada y daga.


Stuart


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2010)

OK... I got there....kinda sorta.

I called to make sure the class was still on the same day at the same time.

I let the teacher know I was coming and he said "Great"

I got there... and it was closed. 

I waited for about 30 minutes and no one showed up so I left.

I am going to contact them today to see what happened.

There is another school but I will have to wait to go check that out. They will not let you watch but they will give you a couple free classes. However based on what I see on YouTube I do not think my knee could take a class at this point so it will have to wait a couple of months.

The school that was closed is a bit of a conglomerate of styles. There are multiple teachers teaching multiple styles here. That is not to say it is bad, just that it is one of many styles taught.

The second school focuses only on Filipino styles Escrima and Muay Thai.


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