# Taijutsu video I thought was great



## emiliozapata (Feb 6, 2009)

Not sure if this Hoshi Ryu is acceptable to the purists, but this is an example of some taijutsu that I find quite impressive. My philosophy of face/head control is very evident in many of the techniques. Enjoy.


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## stephen (Feb 6, 2009)

This is better:


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## emiliozapata (Feb 6, 2009)

In what way do you think that is better?


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Not sure if this Hoshi Ryu is acceptable to the purists, but this is an example of some taijutsu that I find quite impressive. My philosophy of face/head control is very evident in many of the techniques. Enjoy.


 
Interesting although I've never heard of them.Any idea of lineage?  In other words, I train in Kenpo.  I could put on a black gi, some tabi and do things, that to the untrained eye, untrained, being the key word here, and make it seem as if I'm doing Ninjutsu, when in reality I'm not.



stephen said:


> This is better:


 
Yes, I agree.



emiliozapata said:


> In what way do you think that is better?


 
Well, for starters, I think its pretty safe to say that the person in the clip Stephen linked is legit.


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## KempoGuy06 (Feb 6, 2009)

very cool

B


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## KempoGuy06 (Feb 6, 2009)

stephen said:


> This is better:


that was awesome

B


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## Cryozombie (Feb 6, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> In what way do you think that is better?



MJS comments about Lineage aside, it's hard to comment from watching a video because you don't always know whats going on.  The first video LOOKED like the Tori was using many techniques that relied on physical strength to pull off, which is fine if you are always bigger or fighting someone who won't resist and or counter your technique.  There was a lot less of that in the second video.

But, as I said, that is a generalization from what I observed, and you cannot often judge anything accurately from video because you miss subtlety of some things in techniques you are not intimately familiar with...  Thats why I dont believe you can teach yourself from a Home Study Video Course like the ones Hayes and Von Donk offer.


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## redantstyle (Feb 6, 2009)

EZ,

it's because the second guy has very nice taisabaki skills.  and he creates impulse and uses reactive force as a base.

and the although i liked elements of the first video, they are not even in the same league with the second demonstrator.

not even close. 

regards.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 6, 2009)

> In what way do you think that is better?


 
Well for one smooth and fluid,uses technique over strength.

Knows timing and distancing and creating space and using the void of space to enter.

The first video is not really bad persay I mean the Tori uses a more harder force obviously But looking at how Hatsumi moves you can see Doug matches that closer than Hoshi ryu does.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 6, 2009)

I actually liked the first video more than the second one, because the second one looks like he is in the middle of instructing. Both were good though. Perhaps those guys in emilio's vid are one of the unknown off-shoots of the x kans?


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## David Weatherly (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks for posting.


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## arnisador (Feb 6, 2009)

stephen said:


> This is better:



Good stuff! Reminds me of Systema to an extent.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 7, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> EZ,
> 
> it's because the second guy has very nice taisabaki skills.  and he creates impulse and uses reactive force as a base.
> 
> ...



Absolutely as Doug is slick as silk!


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## Jon-Bhoy (Feb 7, 2009)

> Not sure if this Hoshi Ryu is acceptable to the purists, but this is an example of some taijutsu that I find quite impressive. My philosophy of face/head control is very evident in many of the techniques. Enjoy.



HOSHIryu was founded by Dr. Glenn Morris, of the Bujinkan, that video is HOSHOryu, I believe there is a difference.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 8, 2009)

Doug has some great flow. I guess it all depends on what you like.  Cryo made some good points about subleties. Look at that, not to mention the similarity to Hatsumi's movement, but then again if that is not your concern the other video might have been better for you.

Hosho Ryu looks clean enough, I enjoyed the video. I have seen it before, To me it seems pretty pragmatic, but does employ too much "power" at least in the video, however one tends to pull out the reserves for a video being filmed. So who knows, who cares. Enjoy what you like.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 10, 2009)

Well then I bet you guys will love this one then


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 10, 2009)

Strike 1 - He's a "Soke". Thats a good hint he's a fraud.
Strike 2 - Nice theatrics. Like WWE.
Strike 3 - "Chi" tricks. Like "Darth Dillman".

So, this is your art? Or something you think is legit and shows other "real" ninja stuff as better than the documented Buj stuff?

Tell me, do you consider Ashida Kim and HaHa Lung's systems valid?


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## Kreth (Feb 10, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Well then I bet you guys will love this one then


Amusing video. Of course, one could say that they at least have videos of their training online. :idunno:


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## shesulsa (Feb 10, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Well then I bet you guys will love this one then




That's funny.  Where do you think he came up with this?


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## redantstyle (Feb 10, 2009)

okay, now he's trolling.


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## newtothe dark (Feb 10, 2009)

Speechless   :BSmeter:


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## emiliozapata (Feb 10, 2009)

my point is that the techniques in the last video are about as realistic as those in the second video posted

as a side note, in searching for ninjitsu training anywhere near me, this hoshin budo ryu popped up, seems there is a guy in Bay City , MI who is listed as an instructor, too bad their stuff wasn't more like this, (note the head control, which is stressed in my stuff)


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 10, 2009)

IMO I don't think the video of Hoshin school can be compared with the Dublin Bujinkan video presented by Stephen.  Both videos you posted I feel are no where near Doug's skill. 

Look at Hatsumi's movement in this video:





 
You can see how much closer Doug is to it then the Hoshin school and the Hoshi school you presented.


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## shesulsa (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, if you weren't here to troll, I'd point out that all the stuff you've posted that you hold in high esteem all seems to emphasize the use of physical strength and while that's important, it's not the be-all-end-all.  It's why certain short, slight Japanese people kick the asses of people three times their weight and mass.

But ... good luck with that.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 10, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> my point is that the techniques in the last video are about as realistic as those in the second video posted
> 
> as a side note, in searching for ninjitsu training anywhere near me, this hoshin budo ryu popped up, seems there is a guy in Bay City , MI who is listed as an instructor, too bad their stuff wasn't more like this, (note the head control, which is stressed in my stuff)


 
I wouldn't call this decent head control. The guy bends over way too much putting himself in a vulnerable spot.

The other Hoshin video, seems sketchy though I have seen some pretty cool aiki stuff in years past that I didn't think could be done. Mind you, you can pretty much make your uke do anything if they believe in you.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 10, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> Mind you, you can pretty much make your uke do anything if they believe in you.



THAT is a fact.  Just look to things like Yellow Bamboo for proof of that.


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## redantstyle (Feb 10, 2009)

>


 

i like the guy in teh red shirt doing the nose drag.  one time, doing that drill, i had a guy peel me back and drop me across his knee.  nobody explained to him that you aren't supposed to do the whole movement.  

my back still hurts when i think about it.

regards.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 11, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> I wouldn't call this decent head control. The guy bends over way too much putting himself in a vulnerable spot.
> quote]
> 
> 
> The only time he bends over is when using his own head to exert the force on his opponent's head to execute the technique, the bend makes it happen, you are controlling uke the whole time, I really dont see the vulnerability here.


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## redantstyle (Feb 11, 2009)

ehay's otnay atthay oodgay.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 11, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> ehay's otnay atthay oodgay.


 

True, but on the other hand he's not *that* bad either. We've all seen much, much worse.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 11, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Bujingodai said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't call this decent head control. The guy bends over way too much putting himself in a vulnerable spot.
> ...


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## Raynac (Feb 11, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> my point is that the techniques in the last video are about as realistic as those in the second video posted


 
note I've only been training for 4 months so if some of my critisms are not well placed im sorry

Hmmm you can obviously tell that you have not trained in ninjutsu when you say somthing like that. despite warnings of you being a troller i still would like to point out that the guy in the second video was teaching and not in a real combat situation. I personally would dread going up against any of my instuctors at my current level. 

also the guys in your first video were doing alot of muscling and flashy moves like the one around :37. im fairly new to the art but im pretty sure he should not have flipped the way he did, also his landing was horrible! where was the breakfall?!

around :41 just... no. There is way to much muscle. it denies the basis of what i know about ninjutsu. he would not be able to do that to someone who was way bigger. i should know!, I weight around 120 and am around 5'5'' and I train with one guy whos at least twice my weight probley much more. but i can still throw him using the proper technique. thats the beauty of it. i doubt that guy on there could throw his partner if his partner was more than twice his weight.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 11, 2009)

Well firstly, let me assure you I am no troll, secondly, when you say you can throw this person twice your weight, are you refering to during randori or simply with him as your uke?


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## shesulsa (Feb 12, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Well firstly, let me assure you I am no troll, secondly, when you say you can throw this person twice your weight, are you refering to during randori or simply with him as your uke?



Ya know, for someone who says he trained in Judo, this really should not shock you, even in randori.  "The gentle way" is *all* about the science of leverage and balance, not strength.


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## Kreth (Feb 12, 2009)

I've been tossed around by Japanese guys half my size. Maybe they were doing it wrong. :lol:


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## Cryozombie (Feb 12, 2009)

Kreth said:


> I've been tossed around by Japanese guys half my size. Maybe they were doing it wrong. :lol:



But how many tires did they throw to get to that point?


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## bluekey88 (Feb 12, 2009)

My taijutsu instructor is half my size (height and possibly weight).  He controls me almost effortlessly.  The more I resist, the worse it is for me.  There's no muscling him around.  I'm guessing he's doign it wrong too. 

On a more serious note, there is no denying that strength and power give one an edge in combat.  However, in my experience...effective SD, combat...whatever...starts with good, crisp technique.  Strength and power come later.  If one has to sacrifice technique in order to utilize strength, then they're doing it wrong.  Strength should enhace, but should not replace technique...this holds treu for all martial arts...not just taijutsu.  Look at Helio Gracie...he regularly was able to dominate larger, stronger, skilled opponents with superior skill and technique.

Peace,
Erik


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## Kreth (Feb 12, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> But how many tires did they throw to get to that point?


As cramped as things are in Japan, they don't have room to throw tires. They train the old-school way, tossing around fat gaijin.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 12, 2009)

Bah everyone knows old Japanese masters do not throw tires they are skilled in the art of Pachinko.

Speaking of Japanese games I once played an arcade game back in Japan were you are a peeping Tom and the object of the game is to avoid being caught. I recall you had to physically step off a platform and peek without being seen.





> tossing around fat gaijin.


 LOL


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## Raynac (Feb 12, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Well firstly, let me assure you I am no troll, secondly, when you say you can throw this person twice your weight, are you refering to during randori or simply with him as your uke?



he snuck up behind me in class and put me in a full nelson to see what I would do/ if could effectivly use a technique I had learned without being told to.


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## kaizasosei (Feb 12, 2009)

Reminds me of Go or igo.  A game that is very much like ma.


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## CDKJudoka (Feb 12, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Well firstly, let me assure you I am no troll, secondly, when you say you can throw this person twice your weight, are you refering to during randori or simply with him as your uke?




I did randori with a 98 lbs female black belt. At the time I was 225, and stand 6'3" tall. She had no problem tossing me around like the proverbial rag doll. As everyone has stated , techniques performed correctly do require that much strength.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 12, 2009)

I believe Hatsumi once said that the amount of effort one should use to perform a technique should not exceed that of opening a door. I find I have to agree. The more skilled one's taijutsu is the less muscle he has to use.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 14, 2009)

Raynac said:


> he snuck up behind me in class and put me in a full nelson to see what I would do/ if could effectivly use a technique I had learned without being told to.


 

So he gave you your irimi and your leverage and pivot point.  IN real grappling these are the two things hardest to achieve on a resisting opponent. 

 those who think the best judokas aren't in top physical condition have no idea. Have those of you ever seen  olympic caliber judoka grip fight? Nothing "gentle" about it.

That being said, I still think the first video I posted was some of the nicest taijiutsu I have seen. The rest is aikido and aikijiujitsu basically, renamed and packaged as ninjutsu taijutsu imho. I have watched as bujinkan techniques eveolved over the years to become more and more "soft". Back in the day, I even remember when Tanemura first started advertising in Black Belt Magazine. "Samurai JiuJutsu" is what he was peddling then. 

His new thing now is Koryu Karate, simple translation as Old School Karate. Hmmmmm?


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## emiliozapata (Feb 14, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> My taijutsu instructor is half my size (height and possibly weight). He controls me almost effortlessly. The more I resist, the worse it is for me. There's no muscling him around. I'm guessing he's doign it wrong too.
> 
> On a more serious note, there is no denying that strength and power give one an edge in combat. However, in my experience...effective SD, combat...whatever...starts with good, crisp technique. Strength and power come later. If one has to sacrifice technique in order to utilize strength, then they're doing it wrong. Strength should enhace, but should not replace technique...this holds treu for all martial arts...not just taijutsu. Look at Helio Gracie...he regularly was able to dominate larger, stronger, skilled opponents with superior skill and technique.
> 
> ...


 
Erik, I trained with an aikido guy for a time on an informal basis, he could control me effortlessly as well with my resistance increasing the pain, only once I let him get his control, especially 2nd and 3rd control stuff. Once we did some true randori, he never could do it.

Helio was a great tactician for sure, but a larger stronger judoka rag dolled him. Royce was great as well, but look at how bad Hughes destroyed him. When skill and technique are equal , size and power are the deciding factor. Those who refute this just don't want to put in the work. Again, you learn more about yourself and your warrior spirit when you test yourself physically and mentally, exactly as did the ninja originators, the Shugenja.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 14, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> So he gave you your irimi and your leverage and pivot point. IN real grappling these are the two things hardest to achieve on a resisting opponent.
> 
> those who think the best judokas aren't in top physical condition have no idea. Have those of you ever seen olympic caliber judoka grip fight? Nothing "gentle" about it.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, you are a liar, plain and simple. You come on here, claim almost no background, a "little of this" and "some of that" but you have extensive knowlage, including use of Irimi, Judo, have watched the progression of the Bujinkan, know Tanmura's background... can Identify Aikido and Aikijujitsu by veiwing a single video clip.

You, sir, are FULL OF ****.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 14, 2009)

> I have watched as bujinkan techniques eveolved over the years to become more and more "soft". Back in the day, I even remember when Tanemura first started advertising in Black Belt Magazine. "Samurai JiuJutsu" is what he was peddling then.


 I don't think they are more soft I think Hatsumi teaches in a different manner.

Shoto Tanemura has Sokeship of several Jujutsu ryuha as well.

The Jujutsu part of the Genbukan differs from the Ninpo part but there are some similarites. 

 Shoto Tanemura Koryu Karate is a mix of his Dakenjutsu. Shoto Tanemura teacher Sato Kimbei learned Chinese arts as well So Shoto Tanemura has a wealth of knowledge including Menkyo in Daito ryu Aikijujutsu.


> exactly as did the ninja originators, the Shugenja.


 The Shugenja were not the orginators of Ninjutsu.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 14, 2009)

here is some of the best ninjutsu training I have seen to date


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## shesulsa (Feb 14, 2009)

Good for you.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 15, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Ok, you are a liar, plain and simple. You come on here, claim almost no background, a "little of this" and "some of that" but you have extensive knowlage, including use of Irimi, Judo, have watched the progression of the Bujinkan, know Tanmura's background... can Identify Aikido and Aikijujitsu by veiwing a single video clip.
> 
> You, sir, are FULL OF ****.


 
Wow, I never said "a little of this...etc..", I stated my background via belt ranks which is what every poster was after, then stated that I have dabbled, and you should know I said I have loved the MA for a long time and immersed myself whenever I could.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi,

You know, Cryo, I feel that our young friend Emilio really doesn't have much background other than that stated... just a head full of words not understood, and a belief that reading and watching equals knowledge, ability and experience.

The term Irimi means "to enter against the body", and is primarily an Aikido term. Saying that someone "gave you your irimi" is to misunderstand the term, as Irimi is an action on your part, rather than a simple positioning as Emilio infers. So thats one down.

Then we get "In real grappling..." Now, here, Emilio has a little experience, in fact, if we are to believe his claims, the little true experience he has is in grappling systems (some Judo and a little BJJ, if memory serves), so I can allow a little room here. But he's hardly seasoned, and again, he is comparing sport systems to non-sporting systems. Not really showing understanding here either.

Olympic Judo competitors not being gentle... sure, I can go with that. But this is a sporting system, where the athletes are mostly competing against other athletes of similar size, weight, ability, experience etc, so power in such a controlled and restricted situation means it can be focused on to a much greater degree. As established, Emilio's background is primarily in sport-based grappling systems, so his emphasis on sport-style conditioning and strength makes a bit of sense. The problem is that that will tip the scales in two evenly matched persons, and non-sporting systems (which Emilio has NO experience in) simply won't assume that the 
opponent(s) will be an even match... if they were, they probably wouldn't attack! So here, he's looking at the wrong thing.

The first video being the best... well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, beauty is truth etc, so if he thinks it's the best, that must be true, right? Seriously, there's not much point arguing the pros and cons of one video versus another, as it gets very subjective. However, the claim that everything else presented to him is "Aikido or Aikijujutsu [corrected your spelling, there, Emilio...] basically, renamed and packaged as ninjutsu taijutsu imho" simply shows a complete lack of recognition of Ninjutsu as taught today, as well as a desperate gap in his knowledge of Japanese Arts.

Now we come to the crux of the matter: "I have watched as bujinkan techniques eveolved over the years to become more and more "soft". Back in the day, I even remember when Tanemura first started advertising in Black Belt Magazine. "Samurai Jujutsu" [once again, corrected your spelling] is what he was peddling then. His new thing now is Koryu Karate, simple translation as Old School Karate. Hmmmmm?"

So you've been in the dojo's from the late 70's watching as the practitioners matured, as Hatsumi Sensei, Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei, the Japanese Shihan, the senior instructors around the world matured as well? And, after not actually watching Tanemura's videos (you would understand about he spelling if you had...), you have decided you know how the art has changed, and beyond that, you know why the teaching and training of the art changed? That, I'm afraid, is a bit hard to swallow. I will once again quote myself from another thread here, hopefully that may give another possible reason. "In Japanese Arts, there is an approach to the development of the practitioner; as you progress, you travel through the stages Shu, Ha, Ri. Essentially, Shu is the beginning stage, and at this point, everything is done in a strict, formal method. The form is followed exactly, with no variation. Ha allows some freedom to the structure, but the same form is still used. By the time you reach Ri, you are free to express yourself through the particular medium, changing the structure and form as your understanding/absorption of the feelings and concepts change. At this point, there is no real structure left to the original form, and it becomes a true artistic expression, changing each time."

And, as for the Genbukan and what Tanemura Sensei is "peddling" (a somewhat offensive term, I might say), the Genbukan itself, these days, is the Ninpo Taijutsu portion of the Organisations Tanemura Sensei heads, as well as being the oldest. The Jujutsu portion is known as the Kokusei Ju Jutsu Renmei, or World Jujutsu Federation, the KJJR. This is the section that the videos you allude to were filmed for, the advanced even going so far as to give specific examples from various Jujutsu Ryuha. There is now a section refered to as Koryu Karate, which, as stated, is primarily composed of old Dakentaijutsu systems, which Tanemura believes is a major precursor to modern Karate. There is also a section on Amatsu Tatara, although this is not open to the majority of people. So you have simply shown that, although you have been watching Ninjutsu organisations for many years, you haven't really paid attention to what is there.

I really have to visit this too: "exactly as did the ninja originators, the Shugenja." Take heed of the words of Jade Cloud. You have taken the works of Stephen Hayes as a be-all end-all (although, as demonstrated, you managed to miss the point of those as well), while not paying any attention to the fact that Hayes himself said that his research there did not mean that the Shugenja were the originators of Ninjutsu, simply that they may have been an influence of a few of the schools. The Togakure Ryu origin story mentions the possibility of Daisuke Nishina (Daisuke Togakure) being trained at some point by the Shugenja on Togakure Yama, but he was also exposed to the teachings of Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu, and was trained as a Samurai before all of this. Taking one word out of a story doesn't give you the full picture.

Essentially, you have shown that you have access to the information, even to the point that you have most likely deliberately sought them out. This you have done based on a childhood fantasy of what your childs brain wanted to imagine Ninjutsu and Ninja to be. Then, in your journey, you have encountered a number of truths which did not fit your beliefs about Ninjutsu and Ninja. So, you were left with two choices: Accept that you were working without full knowledge of the subject, and integrate the new ideas into your understanding of the subject, coming ever closer to the reality of the situation, and in fact discovering that the reality can be even greater than your childhood daydreams simply by being real and achievable; or, shut your eyes, block your ears, scream loudly that you know best, and hope to drown out those who challenge your fantasies.

In the end, you are currently operating with the emotional and intellectual maturity of a 5 year old where the Martial Arts are concerned, because that is where you have chosen to keep yourself. And that is not necessarily a bad, or unusual thing. Unless you are teaching others (even your own kids). So, please, for your sake, for the sake of your kids, and for the sanity of all those here, either grow up, recognise that you have no place talking with any authority on these subjects,and we will be more than happy to help you learn, or keep your childhood fantasies to yourself along with your wish to fly and have super-strength where they belong.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 15, 2009)

Sorry for the length on that last one... I thought I was done with this topic.


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## jks9199 (Feb 15, 2009)

*Attention all users:

*Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.  

-jks9199
-MartialTalk Moderator


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## emiliozapata (Feb 15, 2009)

Chris Parker , I know what you think of me, I am curious what your take on the AKBAN video I posted is.


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## Raynac (Feb 15, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> So he gave you your irimi and your leverage and pivot point. IN real grappling these are the two things hardest to achieve on a resisting opponent.


 



Chris Parker said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> The term Irimi means "to enter against the body", and is primarily an Aikido term. Saying that someone "gave you your irimi" is to misunderstand the term, as Irimi is an action on your part, rather than a simple positioning as Emilio infers. So thats one down.


 
Even with what chris said im still not sure what an irimi means... so if i say im not sure if he gave me one or not,your going to have to humor me. all i know is he put me in a full nelson that had me suspended off the ground, while when i had practiced the move i had always been solidly on the ground. I had no leverage or piviot point at that moment and it wasn't until i broke his grip (using a techinque on his fingers) and managed to get my feet on the ground that i could actually manage to BARELY pull off the technique because as you said its hard to do against a resisting opponent. 

also comparing me to an olypic level judoka while im still a yellowbelt ninjutsu user who has been learning for about 4-5 months isn't really the most fair comparison


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## Chris Parker (Feb 16, 2009)

Hi Emilio,

The ABKAN video you posted as "some of the best NINJUTSU training" you had seen doesn't really impress me as such. The main reason is that I feel the aspects you gravitate towards are not ninjutsu training. The free-form sparring (randori) is primarily BJJ (for the ground work), and karate/tae kwon do/kickboxing in the stand up. There is a prevalence of Mawashi Geri (roundhouse kicks) and other karate-style actions, but no ninjutsu in those sequences. And to be sure, the mawashi geri was introduced into karate in the 1930's by Gichin Funakoshi's son, and was never a part of any traditional Japanese martial art. If you doubt this, try it in Yoroi...

The Ninjutsu parts of the video were not too badly done, but nothing spectacular. I just worry about the students training one system for the traditional aspect, then completely discarding it for their free-form sparring. It shows to me a lack of confidence in the system they are learning, and a lack of willingness to pressure test it properly to make sure they can use it effectively.

As for yourself, Emilio, I simply feel that you are better suited (from a personality level) to competitive grappling systems, as this is what you appreciate, and have some experience in. If you simply said "I have experience in these arts, and am forming my own expression of grappling/combative sports based on what works for me on a personal level", and left Ninjutsu out of it, you would recieve much more respect and encouragement from myself, and I warrant, many others here. And it would be reasonably legitimate. The only thing people could say is ot question if you have enough experience, and that can only be discovered from personal interaction with you.

Raynac, Irimi is, as I said, entering against a body. It is primarily an Aikido term, and is used as a concept to give students a way to understand the methods Aikido employs to harmonise with an attackers energy. It is not a static position, but rather a movement and timing principle. Unfortunately, the only way to really experience this concept is from an experienced instructor, same as any martial art skill. And, of course, I would recommend an Aikido instructor over others. If you have any friends who practice Aikido, why not get together and see what you can learn from each other? After all, even the great Miyamoto Musashi was said to have consulted with Hyogonosuke Yagyu when creating the concepts of Niten Ichi Ryu (and Yagyu created a series of anti-Nito techniques known as Nito Yaburi from the same meetings).


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## bluekey88 (Feb 16, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Erik, I trained with an aikido guy for a time on an informal basis, he could control me effortlessly as well with my resistance increasing the pain, only once I let him get his control, especially 2nd and 3rd control stuff. Once we did some true randori, he never could do it.
> 
> Helio was a great tactician for sure, but a larger stronger judoka rag dolled him. Royce was great as well, but look at how bad Hughes destroyed him. When skill and technique are equal , size and power are the deciding factor. Those who refute this just don't want to put in the work. Again, you learn more about yourself and your warrior spirit when you test yourself physically and mentally, exactly as did the ninja originators, the Shugenja.


 
I'll give you the point that when skill and technique are equal, then sizwe and power win out...however, in my experience...skill and technqiue are rarely equal.  I'm a big strong guy.  I can muscle through quite a bit....but when that fails, what do I have to fall back on?  

really, it's the flip side of what your are saying which is...when technique fails?  You better have power on your side.

To me, developing physical power, while not an easy thing to do...can be developed much faster than than skill and technique.  Thus, I spend more time working my tehcnique than i do building my muscles.  I practice my technique such that i don;t have to "force" it...power then becomes my backup.

Why do I not train the other way?  Simple...I'm a big guy...but not the biggest.  There are lots of bigger, meaner, more powerful, more aggressive guys out there.  No matter how much I lift, sweat, and push myself...I will not be as big, poerful, mean and aggressi ve as they are.  In that case, my equalizer becomes technqiue.  And it hetter be damn sound technique if I hope to come out alive froma confrontation with one of these guys should they wish to end me.

I'm not saying neglect power...but don't rely on it.

Peace,
Erik


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 16, 2009)

AKBAN doesn't seem like a bad organization to train in. I'm sure they can build pretty tough guys, but I'm not blown away by what I see there. I'm much more impressed with the things I see my teachers do, but that may just be personal bias.

Nahhhh... who am I kidding I"M NEVER BIASED! Everything I say is objectively true! Always!


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## emiliozapata (Feb 17, 2009)

_The term Irimi means "to enter against the body", and is primarily an Aikido term. Saying that someone "gave you your irimi" is to misunderstand the term, as Irimi is an action on your part, rather than a simple positioning as Emilio infers. So thats one down._

Actually irimi simply means "to enter" or "an entering movement" aikidoists try to conceptualiaze it into something more esoteric, Judo has used the concept from the beginning, ever heard of irimi nage, or irimi tsuki, these are judo throws right from the kodokan curriculum, so in most judo throws in which you will use your body to pivot point the opponent you must enter into them, which is half the battle in getting superior grips, therefore I argue that my use of the term is appropriate.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 17, 2009)

> Actually irimi simply means "to enter" or "an entering movement"


 But it is more in the lines of entering the opponents space.

I have seen Irimi defination as blending. So IMO and (I am not an Aikidoka so any Aikidoka feel free to correct) Is the entering/blending of the opponent/or opponents space.



> aikidoists try to conceptualiaze it into something more esoteric, Judo has used the concept from the beginning, ever heard of irimi nage, or irimi tsuki


 I don'y see it listed in the Kodokan list of techniques. If we look at Irimi nage as used by Aikido which shows the blending we can see that in Judo it would not work with the principle because Judo uses more Tsukuri(fitting in) as in pivoting to upset the balance where Aikido I think uses misdirection to uproot the balance.

I don't think it is an absolutes because I am sure Judo uses misdirection and Aikido uses Tsukuri as well but I think the empahisis of misdirection or breaking balance by means of circle is Aikido where Judo is more breaking balance by straight direction uprooting.



> so in most judo throws in which you will use your body to pivot point the opponent you must enter into them


I think Tsukuri fits better. As one person put "Tsukuri is the part of the throw practiced repeatly in Uchikomi."


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## shesulsa (Feb 17, 2009)

Indeed, the misuse of terminology, the neglect of showing specifics other than tire throwing and links to videos demonstrating strength rather than technique, the breaking down of aikido in randori and the posting of the go-to Anti-Bujinkan video ... all point to one thing.

I'm still wanting to see emilio in a video of his taijutsu as it relates to defense technique, to stance training, weaponry, etcetera.  Because right now, this art he's assembled for his kids looks like ... nothing.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 17, 2009)

I've mentioned on another post that there are 4 elements to performing a good technique. _kazushi_,_ irimi_, _tsukuri_,_ kake_. Take the enemies balance, enter in close, lock them up, and execute the technique.

Emilio, you make it sound like it is hard to get irimi, but that's only true in a sport fight where there is no clear aggressor. In a street fight there is always an aggressor, and they close the distance on you whihc makes getting irimi quite easy. Jujutsu techniques work because of the simplisity of the movements. Proper training makes these easy to pull off even against aggressive, uncooperative opponents, because  *that's what they were designed to be used against*.


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## morph4me (Feb 17, 2009)

It really sounds like a case of "I can't do it, so it can't be done" more than anything else.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 17, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Indeed, the misuse of terminology, the neglect of showing specifics other than tire throwing and links to videos demonstrating strength rather than technique, the breaking down of aikido in randori and the posting of the go-to Anti-Bujinkan video ... all point to one thing.
> 
> I'm still wanting to see emilio in a video of his taijutsu as it relates to defense technique, to stance training, weaponry, etcetera. Because right now, this art he's assembled for his kids looks like ... nothing.


 
Well I would like to get some decent videos loaded up, I am still held back by technical difficulties, but I am learning slowly but surely. Expect some stuff in a week or so.


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## shesulsa (Feb 17, 2009)

Okay. See you in a week, then.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 17, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> _The term Irimi means "to enter against the body", and is primarily an Aikido term. Saying that someone "gave you your irimi" is to misunderstand the term, as Irimi is an action on your part, rather than a simple positioning as Emilio infers. So thats one down._
> 
> Actually irimi simply means "to enter" or "an entering movement" aikidoists try to conceptualiaze it into something more esoteric, Judo has used the concept from the beginning, ever heard of irimi nage, or irimi tsuki, these are judo throws right from the kodokan curriculum, so in most judo throws in which you will use your body to pivot point the opponent you must enter into them, which is half the battle in getting superior grips, therefore I argue that my use of the term is appropriate.


 

To take this literally, "Iri" means "to enter", "Mi" is the same character as "Do", and means "the body, or trunk". so "Irimi" is "To enter against the body". Your turn.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 18, 2009)

there you have it, so you can see when someone comes up behind you and places you into a full nelson they have given you your irimi. All the high amplitude throws in judo require this irimi, which allows your body to be the pivot point, the leverage comes from dropping your center of gravity under said pivot point, which creates an unbalancing and allows the throw to be completed. Thank You for your insight.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 18, 2009)

> have given you your irimi.


 
I think this sentence is not correct.

My wife(Japanese native) and I were going over the meaning Irimi with the electronic dictionary. The dictionary spoke about how Sumo wrestlers put their bodies together in some ways like a clinch or tackle.

I showed her the stepping action done in Judo and she used the wording Sukui nage(meaning to scoop up)though the dictionary translates the meaning as a Sumo technique. 

I am not a Judoka or an Aikidoka so the terms may differ.


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## emiliozapata (Feb 18, 2009)

jade cloud , your endeavor demonstrates the futility of arguing over the semantics of all this stuff, imagine if we were using english terms, I would be saying, "you need to break down their grip and get in close, body to body and drop under their weight", someone else could say, "This guy don't know what he is talking about, you need to pass their arms so you can close the gap between your bodies and then get low" 

How are the two above statements different? They are not.


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## Kreth (Feb 18, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> jade cloud , your endeavor demonstrates the futility of arguing over the semantics of all this stuff, imagine if we were using english terms, I would be saying, "you need to break down their grip and get in close, body to body and drop under their weight", someone else could say, "This guy don't know what he is talking about, you need to pass their arms so you can close the gap between your bodies and then get low"
> 
> How are the two above statements different? They are not.


Straw man. You're arguing Japanese terms with a native speaker of Japanese, albeit by proxy.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 18, 2009)

What I am saying is the wording "given you your irimi" does not sound correct. As Chris has said already what irimi means and as my wife a Japanese native said the against the body as in clinching or tackle not as you said:



> Actually irimi simply means "to enter" or "an entering movement"


 
I see also you are using the Shugen name again after I explained to you it has a religious context. Shu=Asectic Gen=magic power/ability


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## Kreth (Feb 18, 2009)

...


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## Raynac (Feb 18, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> So he *gave you your irimi* and your leverage and pivot point. IN real grappling *these are the two things hardest to achieve on a resisting opponent.*


 
hehehe nice picture. ok so from what I'm understanding here... even if i was "given" an imiri as he stated earlier... how is that a bad thing? honestly if someone goes to put me in a full nelson in realife they will have to do it by "giving" me an imiri. so you said thats one of the hardest things to achieve on a resisting opponent. 

well yes maybe, but only if your starting from a position were you are both trying to grapple eachother head on, in a situation were im attacked from behind and put into a full nelson (which after getting attack from behind with a chair I now consider a very real possiblity) the person is going to be giving me the imiri irregardless. thus there is no flaw with the techinque as it works what its designed for so belittling it by saying "_he gave you your irimi and your leverage and pivot point. IN *real grappling* these are the two things hardest to achieve on a resisting opponent"

_ but thats ok you were probley thinking of competion grappling, somthing I don't plan on participating in. 

There I've had my rant ^_^ I have no more harsh feelings towards emiliozapata. honestly I'm really interested in what his art looks like, in a serious sense, not in a "I want to pick it apart" kind of sense. are your kids still having fun? how often do you train..?

P.S. do you honestly flip tires? we have some pretty big tractor tires on our farm so If you have good ones i know they can be pretty heavy... but I can see it causing back problems... I  mean if you can lift it once in a while its impressive but don't damage yourself.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 19, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> there you have it, so you can see when someone comes up behind you and places you into a full nelson they have given you your irimi. All the high amplitude throws in judo require this irimi, which allows your body to be the pivot point, the leverage comes from dropping your center of gravity under said pivot point, which creates an unbalancing and allows the throw to be completed. Thank You for your insight.


 

Look, not to labour the point Emilio, but as you appear to have some difficulty with Japanese terms (ninjutsu, irimi, shugen), as well as technical terms (psychosomatic), it would seem you also need a bit of a helping hand with some basic grammatical English.

"Iri", as established, means "to enter". "Enter", with the opening "to", becomes a "verb". This is what we call "a doing word", or an action. Therefore, the term "irimi" refers to action. If, for example, an opponent were to take hold of a person (say, from behind in a full nelson?), and that hold is used to apply a throwing action, then there has been no entering action. There has been no movement to attain momentum nor position. So no "giving of irimi (?)", okay? Irimi is action. No action, no irimi.

Please realise that just using pretty words and semi-technical terms won't impress anyone here, as the general level of understanding is a bit above that. So just use terms that you actually know, okay?


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## shesulsa (Feb 19, 2009)

I sure wish I could remember who said this to me years ago ... but it was something along the lines of ... "think of going into a doorway, inside the space as you would enter a small closet..." so my take on the term - which I've only heard here, honestly, involves committing to the throw - getting "in" there and setting up.

I can see the desire to apply that analogy to shooting the legs or even a sweep from behind, but ... not for a RNC or, say, a joint lock.

Being given a position or an opening, screwing up, leaving something out there ... that is not how I understand the concept of what I think most folks call "irimi."

Am I getting that right?

:asian:


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## HaydenMorison (Feb 23, 2009)

Just came across George Rodgers today,really impressive stuff!

check it out:
















http://www.jagmartialarts.com/vids.htm


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## Bujingodai (Feb 23, 2009)

I fail to actually see any use of Ninpo Taijutsu in any of that. It was devoid of legwork. The last 2 anyway. Seems sort of stiff.
Was he Kan, he looks awefully familiar.
His striking is good but lacks angulation, distance, creation of space etc. Thats just my opinion mind you.


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## HaydenMorison (Feb 23, 2009)

he does state that it isnt bujinkan ninjutsu (sorry to disappoint you) its more of a modernized version, i dunno i think its quite cleaver and practical and you can see how the ninjutsu principals are the same.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 23, 2009)

From George's groups site, he recieved Godan under Hatsumi Sensei in 1999, but then left without seeking any higher grades. His reasons are listed on the site (www.jagmartialarts.com, look under the member section), so I won't go into them here.


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## Kreth (Feb 23, 2009)

I dunno if anyone noticed, but this is the Japanese Martial Arts Talk forum, not "Had-A-Hissy-Fit-And-Left-To-Form-My-Own-System-Of-Martial-Arts-Talk." :idunno:


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## HaydenMorison (Feb 24, 2009)

Yeah im so sick of hearing that ****, i totally agree with u Kreth.

Just train and strive to become better, who cares about politics, or its not 100% traditional. Adaptation and evolution in martial arts is a wonderful thing, times have changed, what you really want to ask yourself is - do i want to learn just an art, or do i want to learn real life self defence? and theres nothing wrong with either, its what you want martial arts to do for YOU that matters most!

Meanwhile, I think Mr Rodgers is incredible! I really need to work on my striking and this couldn't of come at a better time for me, i picked up some really cool ideas from his movies that I wouldn't mind trying


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## Bujingodai (Feb 24, 2009)

Why would I be disappointed he wasn't Kan? He looked familiar though.
I couldn't agree with you more Hayden it is too bad more folks don't just wish to train save for the politics and so on.
OK well I was just stating and opinion. I don't care what his motives are, they are his own. I never read that part.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 24, 2009)

I don't know I think he has a sustainable argument, but he didn't word it very well. If you don't like the way a particular organization does things then it is only natural that one should leave.  I don't consider what he did to be "throwing a hissy fit", but he could have been more tactful in his approach.


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## Raynac (Mar 2, 2009)

George Rodger said:
			
		

> Although there are many excellent Martial Artist within the Bujinkan, the Grading System is farcical. Frankly there are some very senior Grades who not only have no Martial Spirit but also struggle to put one foot in front of another. Who has ever heard of a 15th Dan? What is that all about?
> If you are a good Martial Artist within the Bujinkan you know what I mean, although you probably won&#8217;t say, *and if you are upset by this then sorry, but you are probably rubbish.*


Omg im sorry but to officially state that kind of thing on your website... well I personally interperate that as "if you don't agree with me your wrong" maybe its true, I don't know but your personal growth is the only thing that matters to me. 

the way i look at it. so what if there are 10 dan or somthing who can't fight their way out of a paper bag, thats not your problem, unfortunatly thats their students problems. your goal is to become the best you can be, forget about the others they will learn at their own rate and maybe be judged on a different level than you are.

it matters not how the other students are doing, you did not enter to learn for them, you entered to learn for you(if that makes any sense)

anyways sorry about that. where is emilzio. I haven't seen him on in a while. everyone made fun of him but... i found he really made things fun. =P and i want to know how the training is going. are his kids enjoying it? and so forth. the forums just seem quieter now.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 4, 2009)

Raynac said:


> the way i look at it. so what if there are 10 dan or somthing who can't fight their way out of a paper bag, thats not your problem, unfortunatly thats their students problems. your goal is to become the best you can be, forget about the others they will learn at their own rate and maybe be judged on a different level than you are.
> 
> it matters not how the other students are doing, you did not enter to learn for them, you entered to learn for you(if that makes any sense)


 
Well I agree partly with what you say, but the fact is that if someone is poorly trained and holds a high rank it reflects badly upon the art and the organization that awards the rank.

Now many of you will say, "who cares how others view us, as long as we train hard and realistically what others say is of no importance" Again I would half agree. There will always be people bad mouthing our martial arts or our teachers or our methods of doing things, but such harsh criticism can be lightened if we hold stricter standards.

A 10th dan in any art should move in such a way that there should be no doubt about his skill, a lazy 10th, 5th, or even 1st dan underminds what others work so hard to achieve. I realize there will always be weak and lazy martial artists (if indeed such a person can be called a martial artist) and such behavior shouldn't really bother us, but if they are put in a position of authority then I feel it takes away from those who work hard to be good at what they do.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 4, 2009)

The fundamental problem I have with that Attitude, Himura, is that it assumes that rank MEANS something.  It also assumes the metric for that rank can be judged across the board from the lowliest Sport Taekwondo school to the hardiest Combat hardened Modern Combatives school.

SHOULD a 5th dan Point fighter be able to kick the crap out of a Golden Glove boxer?  Is he a "poorly trained" martial artist?  Or are you applying a metric to the art based on YOUR expectation of what rank means, and not neccessarily what the expectation of what the organization he belongs to takes it to mean.

It's been explained on here to you already... you keep exploring these ideas with a "Western" mindset, trying to apply the standards we think of in terms of levels "ooh, 5 is higher than 3" to everyone, or fictionalizing that there is a measurable skill set i.e"a first dan can do perfect Sanshin, a second dan can do perfect Kihon Happo" that goes with those ranks like you might find in a Karate school.  

IMO Rank is meaningless, but people won't let it go.  I think it's used more as a Carrot to keep people going.  I have always been content to train, and only ever ranked when my teacher pushed it on me.  I wouldn't even be Dan ranked myself if he hadn't made me get it.  I just wanna train, and rank be dammned.  I judge the top people in our art not by whats in calligraphy on a piece of paper, but by the quality of what they can show me.  That's why I trained under my instructor for years even tho he was only 3rd Dan, and content at the time not to rise in rank, when we had a 10th in the area.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 4, 2009)

Two ranks from different systmes can't really be compared in the same way that's true. But IMO rank SHOULD equate to skill. you ask if a 5th dan point fighter should be able to beat a golden glove boxer. If he is a 5th dan then he should at least be able to survive if the boxer tried to kill him, unless one could equate a GG boxer to have what could be considered a "5th dan" or higher in boxing. If a person can not competantly defend themselves I do not think they should hold a high rank. The higher a person's rank the more competent he or she should be at martial arts.

If rank shouldn't be awarded on the basis of skill why do people get upset when 10 year olds are given black belts? A higher rank signifies a position of authority within an organization. And such positions should be based on merrit and nothing else. They should be used as a marker for progress. So of course all arts would have different requirements for their ranks, but they should at least have the same requirements within the same school. If a martial art wants to be loosely structured, then it should have ranks other than.

I thought that Kano created the belt ranking system to give his students a sense of where they were at within the structure of his system. Even if seniority or some other measure is used to promote rank, surely you must feel as though skill must at least accompany it. Otherwise you would have cases of being instructed by people who were weaker than you.

Because rank is handed out it takes on meaning. If rank has no meaning it shouldn't be awarded in the first place. Just because I may be looking at things through western eyes doesn't mean I'm wrong. There is no "wrong" here only what we _believe_ to be better.

When I studied Isshin ryu and would be awarded rank I felt nothing. I wondered what I did to become a better martial artist that let me move from 1st dan to 2nd dan. The rank _was meaningless._ In the Jizaikan it is not the rank I aspire to but the skill sets that come along with it. As a 2nd dan in this system I know that the rank signifies that I can do things in this art that other people below me are not yet skilled enough to do. This belt itself is nothing, but what it means is everything!


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## Cryozombie (Mar 4, 2009)

Whatever works for you I guess.  I guess I look at it more like this:

Your (not you, but you take my meaning)  PHD means you spent more time in school, or had an education board decide that your knowledge on a subject was great.  It doesn't mean you have a higher IQ than me.  Just that you spent more time "book learning". 

A 20 year veteran on the mats with a 4th Dan holds more meaning to me than a 10 year 10th dan, _unless_ that 4th dan just cant cut it which is why he stopped at 4. Is it wrong that his rank UNDERESTIMATES his skill any more than someones might overestimate theirs?


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 4, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Whatever works for you I guess. I guess I look at it more like this:
> 
> Your (not you, but you take my meaning) PHD means you spent more time in school, or had an education board decide that your knowledge on a subject was great. It doesn't mean you have a higher IQ than me. Just that you spent more time "book learning". ?


 
If we use this analogy, I would think that if you and the professor in question were in the same field of study, then it would be the one with more knowledge who should be given more status. The man who earned the PHD shouldn't have more influence on the field of study than the more knowlegeable person does IMO.



Cryozombie said:


> A 20 year veteran on the mats with a 4th Dan holds more meaning to me than a 10 year 10th dan, _unless_ that 4th dan just cant cut it which is why he stopped at 4. Is it wrong that his rank UNDERESTIMATES his skill any more than someones might overestimate theirs?


 
If a person who didn't know the true difference in skill met both of them he would naturally assume that the higher ranked person had more skill and information (at least I would). I wouldn't underestimate the 4th dan. I would consider a 4th dan to be an expert. I just don't think that the 10th dan should hold any position higher than someone more skilled _in the art he is ranked in_. They could hold the same position, but I think to allow him to hold a position higher than a better martial artist in his own organization could confuse students. Do they defer to the higher rank, or do they defer to the more powerful and knowledgeable MAist? 

Think about the military. You wouldn't want a general to be less competent than a 1st luitenent. That creates disorder in the group. If the 1st Lt is better than his superiors he should be placed above them because they shouldn't hold a higher status than he does.

I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just presenting my beliefs on the subject.


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## arnisador (Mar 4, 2009)

A Ph.D. doesn't "just" have more book-learning--her or she has also demonstrated the ability to do original, publishable research in the field, and hence is in a sense a craftsman in that area. It's qualitatively different than the typical B.S. or M.S. degree.

Rank implies the existence of a hierarchy--an organization. How someone got to the top is always somewhat arbitrary but usually reflects popular opinion that the individual is skilled in some way.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 4, 2009)

arnisador said:


> A Ph.D. doesn't "just" have more book-learning--.



You mis-read what I said, I said "Book Learning vs IQ" perhaps "Education vs IQ" would have been better wording.

Trust me, I know some pretty stupid doctors who couldn't reason their way out of a Paper bag.


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## arnisador (Mar 4, 2009)

I wasn't disagreeing with that part of it. I was saying that when you wrote "PHD means you spent more time in school, or had an education board decide that your knowledge on a subject was great" that it reflects more than just _knowledge_ of a subject. It reflects an ability to do original research in an area, and just as that doesn't indicate an exceptionaly high IQ necessarily, a high IQ doesn't bring it with an ability to perform research necessarily. I think there's relevance here--a high-ranking martial artist should know _more than what he was taught_; his study of the martial arts should have borne more fruits than memorization and demonstartion of techniques.


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## stephen (Mar 5, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Rank implies the existence of a hierarchy--an organization. How someone got to the top is always somewhat arbitrary but usually reflects popular opinion that the individual is skilled in some way.



Maybe it implies it, but it doesn't exist. This is why, I think Soke says that we're all his students after 5th dan. Clearly we're not really 'students' in the sense that we shouldn't have a direct, regular instructor, but rather that we don't 'answer' to anyone else.


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## stephen (Mar 6, 2009)

Back on topic:

Another good (and therefore rare video):






Thomas Franzen is good.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 6, 2009)

stephen said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> Another good (and therefore rare video):
> 
> ...



Hey Stephen thanks for the clip!


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 6, 2009)

Here are some videos of mr. Maienza the founder of aiki ninjutsu.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.Channel&ChannelID=115531820


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## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 26, 2009)

re: video posted in OP - 

fine hapkido, but when does the ninjutsu start?


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