# How Do You Know It Works?



## MJS (Oct 29, 2007)

Joint locks, groin kicks, a poke to the eye, a kick, a punch, a technique. Those are just a few of the many things that are found in pretty much every Martial Art out there. We train these moves countless times. 

Many times, the question comes up..."How do you know thats going to work?" This is the type of question that usually comes from people whos #1 purpose on internet forums, is to stir the pot. Still, it is a question that is legit to a point. 

So...this leads me to my question...How do you know that what you're training in, is actually going to work? I'm not looking for answers that are along the lines of, "Well, this technique has been in existance for 300yrs, my Master did it, his Master did it, so it must work!" I'm not disregarding those techs., but keep in mind that we're all built differently. My teacher can make things work easier than I, so just because he does it, does not mean that I may choose to do the same move. Maybe I have a difficult time with it. 

So, do you know it works because you've used it in a SD situation? You used it on the job, ie: LEO, bouncer, security, etc.? You train with aliveness, resistance, and all that other great stuff and know it works? You jump into the cage or ring?

Looking forward to your replies!:ultracool

Mike


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## MarkBarlow (Oct 29, 2007)

Personal experience (bouncer, store detective, finding humor in inappropriate settings, etc...) has shown me that the techniques in Akayama Ryu Jujutsu work for me personally and after action reports from students (LEO, military, MMA & self defense) tells me that the curriculum works for others.


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## bdparsons (Oct 29, 2007)

MJS said:
			
		

> How do you know thats going to work?


 
Many folks who question the effectiveness of the things you mentioned always want to perform or have them performed on someone else. My recommendation would be for them to volunteer to be the receiver of these moves when executed by a competent practitioner. Leave the cup and mouthpeice at home, sign a waiver, agree upon level of contact and step up.

Don't interpret this to mean that "aliveness" and resistance training shouldn't be practiced, of course they should, but carefully and in a ramped-up manner. Training is a controlled environment that over time should resemble the uncontrolled environment of the street.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 29, 2007)

You don't know until you have to use it and I hope you never have to use it.

It may work well in class it may work well with friends it may work well in theory but in a real life "that other guy is trying to kill me" situation there is a lot more to it that the application. You train and then train it more to try and make things automatic and that is the best you can do. You can go fight in a ring you can go train in a dojo you can be a world champ at Muay Thai and it is a very very different thing when you are face to face with a guy that came out of no where on a hot night on uneven ground in the dark. 

And to be honest psychology has a lot more to do with it once you have trained any app thousands of times. Fear and or panic can freeze you in your tracks. And that is why you try and make it automatic

Just train and train and train some more.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 29, 2007)

bdparsons said:


> Many folks who question the effectiveness of the things you mentioned always want to perform or have them performed on someone else. My recommendation would be for them to volunteer to be the receiver of these moves when executed by a competent practitioner. Leave the cup and mouthpeice at home, sign a waiver, agree upon level of contact and step up.
> 
> Don't interpret this to mean that "aliveness" and resistance training shouldn't be practiced, of course they should, but carefully and in a ramped-up manner. Training is a controlled environment that over time should resemble the uncontrolled environment of the street.
> 
> ...




Mr Parsons (* Bill *),

Has a good point, as we call these the unbelievers. If you question we demonstrate on you not others. 

But as to how do I know, not show, it is similare to post two. Personal experience. 

Yet, I ask them how do they know 1 + 1 is 2? They say because it is. I ask them why is it? Well because it is?  I tell them there are three  proofs I know of, I will accept any of the three. Please provide me the proof. This shows they know why 1 + 1 is 2. 

Most stare at you like you are an idiot. But they get the point. If not I tell them. Practice it and when you get better we can try it. Until then accept it just like you have accepted the math tables taught to you when you were younger.


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## CoryKS (Oct 29, 2007)

I don't "know" it works, but when my instructor is showing me a new technique he will do it just hard enough to give me an idea what it feels like.  You know that sound that cats make when you accidentally step on their tail?  I've been known to make that sound.  So I'll just say that I strongly suspect it will work.  Assuming I do it right.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 29, 2007)

I may have only 'seen the elephant' once in my life but in that handful of seconds I found out just how frighteningly easy it is to really hurt someone when you're both scared and trained.  

That's why I have no truck with the kata-training-doesn't-work theorists.  Okay it's only one data point on the chart and all it shows is that if you threaten (aka "terrify" ) me enough then I will break something but that few ticks of the 'second hand' in a back alley one night was all the convincing I've ever needed.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2007)

I think there is a difference between "will the technique work?" and "can *I* execute the technique?"

I've had a lot of techniques tried out on me so I know how effective they are.  However that is not to say that know that n a given situation I have confidence that I could necessarily properly execute them


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## MarkBarlow (Oct 29, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I may have only 'seen the elephant' once in my life but in that handful of seconds I found out just how frighteningly easy it is to really hurt someone when you're both scared and trained.
> 
> That's why I have no truck with the kata-training-doesn't-work theorists.  Okay it's only one data point on the chart and all it shows is that if you threaten (aka "terrify" ) me enough then I will break something but that few ticks of the 'second hand' in a back alley one night was all the convincing I've ever needed.



There's nothing like having successfully dealt with someone trying to shorten your life span to either change or reinforce views on your particular martial art.  Everything I've encountered, so far, has only increased my confidence in Akayama Ryu Jujutsu.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 29, 2007)

Quite right, Mark :tup:.  I also agree that *Fearless* makes a good point above.  It was something that I was inferring in my earlier post but it does bear emphasis i.e. many techniques have been proven by others but whether they will work for you depends largely on you.


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## tellner (Oct 29, 2007)

If you have emotional ability to zip the other guy without hesitation and the self-possession not to go to pieces while you're doing it you have the only really important part of martial arts. All the rest just gives you options and makes you more effective. Without those two fundamentals all the training in the world doesn't mean squat. You can do all the kata in the world, have flawless technique and be an utter Body Nazi. It won't do you a damned bit of good without the heart and the guts.

I haven't had as much experience as most of my close friends, Alhumdillallah, Baruch Hashem. But the little bit of trouble that has come my way has shown that it's a lot easier to hurt someone badly than to batter him into submission according to the unwritten rules of fair play that most of us including martial artists abide by. Thank G-d for the inhibitions most of us have against harming others.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 29, 2007)

The necessity of the will to fight is such an important aspect that doesn't get repeated often enough.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 29, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> There's nothing like having successfully dealt with someone trying to shorten your life span to either change or reinforce views on your particular martial art. Everything I've encountered, so far, has only increased my confidence in Akayama Ryu Jujutsu.


 
I would have to agree with Mark, that with *successful life experiences in personal protection* definately gives you an edge and a reinforcement that you are on the right path.  Like Mark, Rich and many other's here I have had more than a few work related instances and fortunately these have only helped to further my belief that what I teach is extremely relevent for personal protection skills.  Nothing like a dose of relality to keep you on the straight and narrow. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






Specifics:

As to eye gouges as I have personally never gouged anyones eye's in a violent encounter but I can relate to multiple occasions when sparring of taking a thumb in the eye or observing someone else taking a thumb in the eye and it has almost always resulted in that person being unable to continue and on a few occasions a hospital trip. (very, very painful)

As to groin strikes well I have used that during the course of work (it happened incidentally of course) and also in training and it has *almost always* resulted in the person being incapacitated enough when accuracy has been achieved. :erg:

Another thing I have noticed is that very rarely is anything pretty or goes as you had hoped it would.  You need to be able to improvise on the spot and always if you have the opportunity work from a position of strength. (ie: numbers, tool, positional dominance, etc)

*There simply are no absolutes* and you just need to train consistently and with lots of effort and in the moment just let your training flow from you! 

As always Mike you come up with great thread topics!!!


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## terryl965 (Oct 29, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would have to agree with Mark, that with *successful life experiences in personal protection* definately gives you an edge and a reinforcement that you are on the right path. Like Mark, Rich and many other's here I have had more than a few work related instances and fortunately these have only helped to further my belief that what I teach is extremely relevent for personal protection skills. Nothing like a dose of relality to keep you on the straight and narrow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I would have to agree with all of this. I have been kick by accident while sparring and my God it hurt for hours and it was a full on kick nothing pulled. I have had a person put there finger in my eye while also sparring and I thought my eye was going to explode, the pain was evident for weeks.


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## Steel Tiger (Oct 29, 2007)

tellner said:


> I haven't had as much experience as most of my close friends, Alhumdillallah, Baruch Hashem. *But the little bit of trouble that has come my way has shown that it's a lot easier to hurt someone badly than to batter him into submission according to the unwritten rules of fair play that most of us including martial artists abide by*. Thank G-d for the inhibitions most of us have against harming others.


 
I, too, have found this to be the case and I consider it ample evidence that the techniques work.  The simple fact that what I have done rendered my opponents incapable of continuing their assault in seconds rather than having to dance around with them for minutes like in the movies was both gratifying and horrifying all at the same time.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 29, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would have to agree with Mark, that with *successful life experiences in personal protection* definately gives you an edge and a reinforcement that you are on the right path. Like Mark, Rich and many other's here I have had more than a few work related instances and fortunately these have only helped to further my belief that what I teach is extremely relevent for personal protection skills. Nothing like a dose of relality to keep you on the straight and narrow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Brian,  

"few work related instances" - is that in bill collecting?  I hear that  is dangerous business.   I could not resist my friend as many could say being an engineer is not that dangerous either.   :angel:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 29, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hey Brian,
> 
> "few work related instances" - is that in bill collecting?  I hear that is dangerous business.  I could not resist my friend as many could say being an engineer is not that dangerous either.  :angel:


 
Hey Rich,

No, no bill collecting as that is simply wayyyyy to dangerous! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  My experiences come mostly from way back in the day in the law enforcement, public safety, security, loss prevention field. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Heck as you know though being an engineer could be dangerous too!


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## Ceicei (Oct 29, 2007)

Does techniques work?  Yes....  My partner did one too hard on me and I had to have two surgeries on my wrist.

- Ceicei


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## still learning (Oct 29, 2007)

Hello,  Have you read "VERBAL JUDO"? and Tongue Fu? .....they have great examples of how to use the english languages to devoid just about all situations.  Many of the suggestions DO WORK! ....base on real case studies...

Now for our martial art techniques? ....You will find great information on this by READING many of the books by "Loren Christsenson"  and Marc "the animal" Macyoung.  Loren experience as a police officer, and Marc as a bouncer for many bars and nightclubs.

Not everything is in just one book....you may have to read several of them to get their knowledge of what works on the "streets"..for them..

Most pressure point tarkets, will cause extreme pain or damages!  example's : eyes (raking or poking) even pressing just under the eye ball...try this on your self.

The groin (not always easy to get to) but when grab or brush or hit, most guys know it hurts, (some people can take this strike too).

The throat...just tap your throat with your knife hand? ....doesn't take much to hurt?

Slapping both ears when in a bear hug if hands are free? 

The list can go on and on....on what works....it depends if you can deploy them.....NO TWO SITUATIONS WILL BE THE SAME?  

OH! biting ...this seems to work pretty good! and breaking thumbs and fingers,knee's, elbows,collar bone and ankles...toes can be snap/broken too!  (1942 -442nd regiment-their charging words -"GO FOR BROKE"

Most fights are fast, furious,anything goes (including those things around you can be use weapons)   Using weapons (like bats,knives and guns)works most times..

Most kicks and punches can do damages,knock outs and many times NOTHING!

What will work?  getting to the pressure point tarkets....will be more effective than just throwing everything out there!

Running will work if you can out run them! ...will not work in an elevator.

Just my thoughts on this..........Aloha (maybe that is why? ...we have so many techniques?) and not just a few? 

PS: maybe the question should also ASK?  what doesn't work?

One more thing: I remember reading a story of a retire police officer that never drew his gun or fist....he had a "slap" that would sometimeS knock the other guy out!  THE SLAP! ....was his most effective weapon and it works!

To add to this: Many times what works will be what works for you! ...it might be just one technique perfective or a combintion that will work for you!  Each person...will find his "way"


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## HelloKitty (Oct 29, 2007)

MJS said:


> So, do you know it works because you've used it in a SD situation? You used it on the job, ie: LEO, bouncer, security, etc.? You train with aliveness, resistance, and all that other great stuff and know it works? You jump into the cage or ring?
> 
> Looking forward to your replies!:ultracool
> 
> Mike


 
I have fought once. I was assaulted when I was coming home and I could defend myself, only with basic techniques. So I trust in my MA.

But maybe it was luck. That's why I train specially hard when we have sparring, self-defense or activities involving interaction with other students as well. These are the things keeping myself fast, alert, that would help if I face another bad situation again


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## Big Don (Oct 29, 2007)

I know my Kenpo works for two reasons:
1 I know my roundhouse kick works, because when the BIG DOG was charging at me snarling and growling and I nailed it with a picture perfect roundhouse kick, with just a little upward deflection, that German Shepherd FLEW about 10 feet, and didn't come at me again.
2 I know my self defense techniques work, because the morning after learning them, I get an unsuspecting coworker to attack me and I try them out, a tad harder and faster than in class...


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## MJS (Nov 2, 2007)

bdparsons said:


> Many folks who question the effectiveness of the things you mentioned always want to perform or have them performed on someone else. My recommendation would be for them to volunteer to be the receiver of these moves when executed by a competent practitioner. Leave the cup and mouthpeice at home, sign a waiver, agree upon level of contact and step up.


 
Seeing and feeling is believing.   IMO, some people are too quick to judge something or someone, instead of actually taking the time to seek out someone who has the knowledge and skill, who can show the person how it really works. 



> Don't interpret this to mean that "aliveness" and resistance training shouldn't be practiced, of course they should, but carefully and in a ramped-up manner. Training is a controlled environment that over time should resemble the uncontrolled environment of the street.


 
Exactly!


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## MJS (Nov 2, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would have to agree with Mark, that with *successful life experiences in personal protection* definately gives you an edge and a reinforcement that you are on the right path. Like Mark, Rich and many other's here I have had more than a few work related instances and fortunately these have only helped to further my belief that what I teach is extremely relevent for personal protection skills. Nothing like a dose of relality to keep you on the straight and narrow.


 
I agree with this!  Then again, those non believers always tend to fall back on the, "Well, its not on tape" excuse.  Sorry, but I havent seen a store security officer, CO or LEO walking around with a camcorder every time they get into a scuffle. 




> Specifics:
> 
> As to eye gouges as I have personally never gouged anyones eye's in a violent encounter but I can relate to multiple occasions when sparring of taking a thumb in the eye or observing someone else taking a thumb in the eye and it has almost always resulted in that person being unable to continue and on a few occasions a hospital trip. (very, very painful)


 
I"ve never gouged someones eye either, but like you, I've taken my share of accidental fingers/thumb to the eye in training.  Same results...a stop in the action. 



> As to groin strikes well I have used that during the course of work (it happened incidentally of course) and also in training and it has *almost always* resulted in the person being incapacitated enough when accuracy has been achieved. :erg:


 
I've taken a few hits during grappling. 




> As always Mike you come up with great thread topics!!!


 
Thanks!


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## Drac (Nov 2, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> Personal experience (bouncer, store detective, finding humor in inappropriate settings, etc...) has shown me that the techniques in Akayama Ryu Jujutsu work for me personally and after action reports from students (LEO, military, MMA & self defense) tells me that the curriculum works for others.


 
I like Mark have used many techniques from the Shorin-Ryu and Combat Hapkido while on the job as a bouncer and a cop..They work..


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2007)

I used Taiji and Qinna way back when I was in security and it worked too


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## zDom (Nov 2, 2007)

Reminds me of something that happened around the hapkido dojang a few years back.

A couple of guys were working on some grappling.

The higher-ranking student had the lower-ranking student's torso between his legs, ankles locked, scissoring legs together to apply pressure.

Both guys were being a bit stubborn during the session  not wanting to tap out. I dunno, maybe they were going for more "aliveness" or something.

So the guy scissoring applied more pressure, then looks up at my instructor and says,

"So this doesn't even really work, does it?"

About that time they heard a loud POP as the other guys rib popped out of place, putting him out of the dojang for several months of hearing and rehab.

As pointed out above, no technique is absolutely effective all the time against everyone. Every technique can fail and probably will at some point for various reasons.

But on the other hand, sometimes you just have to take the word of those who have gone before you that a technique works. No need to maim your fellow students every generation to "prove" a technique is effective.


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## Guardian (Nov 13, 2007)

Whether we know it works through training, accidental mishaps LOL or real life situations, all of these techniques/moves have been used previously and have worked for the various individuals who used them.  

As stated here in one of the threads.  It's not so much the technique as it is the individual performing it when needed.

Personally, the techniques I have used have been brutally proved and not always on the other individual, someone mentioned stepping up, well I have done that on more then one occasion so the troops I trained/taught would know what worked and what didn't, unfortunately now a days since those experiences, no longer have to step up LOL, thank God for that.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 13, 2007)

Jumping in on the thread late but to answer the question
 "how do I know wha I was taught works"


I have been in a few street situations, mostly when I lived in Anaheim, and came out of them whole. Therefore because I survived them using techniques that I had been taught I would say that what I was taught worked. And for those that might ask no these where not all one on one and some did involve knives.


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