# Taoist Tai Chi versus Traditional Yang



## East Winds

It was suggested on another thread that it would be more appropriate to discuss TTCS postures in relation to Traditional Yang Family postures on a new thread. So let me be the first to post.

A couple of the main precepts of TTC is that in a bow stance, the heels should be on the same line, and the hips should be squared to the front. The flaw in this can be seen immediately in Single Whip. Squaring of the hips in combination with  the heels on the same line immediately means that you have closed the kuas. In TTCS Single Whip, the right hook hand is at 90 degrees in relation to the left. In other words straight out to the side. In this posture, get someone to push on your hook hand and see how stable your posture is!!!! In Traditional Yang, the heels are separated by some 9 - 12 inches, the right hip is opened to the rear and the right hook hand is over the back leg. The left elbow is above the left knee. Now get someone to push on your hook hand and see the push straight go into the front leg. 

Closed kuas and instability in Single Whip are enough to get going with and this post is already long enough.

Very best wishes.


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## DaPoets

The start of this thread is already flawed because you are comparing tradtional Yang application where TTCS doesn't have an application due to it's focus on stretching/health/opening the body parts up.  In TTCS nobody is going to be pushing you over thus the stances reflect this.  

If things are going to be compared, then try to compare the apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

I guess you can compare application to your hearts content but it's not a fair comparison.  Millions of people around the world are happy to practice Tai Chi and not care about or even have a desire about each moves application as they are doing it for health.

Perhaps a nice start and an even comparison could be to talk about the transfering of weight from one foot to the other.  In TTCS, many moves and we can start with single whip, starts with standing up on the right leg, sitting with that leg, lightly stepping out with the left, and then pushing with the right leg to transfer weight to the left leg while slowly turning the hips and torso forward.  This is an easy topic to discuss on an even playing field with out discussing application.


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## mograph

Yeah, single whip is a good example, since the angle/setup of the feet and squaring of the hips is TTCS canon, as far as I was taught ... back in the day. 

I agree with DaPoets though ... we should be comparing health benefits of the two systems (groups, forms, whatever). If the point is to debate the wisdom of ignoring martial applications, then that would call for a different thread. *However* ... if East Winds is stating that the two-axis stability afforded by a wider stance has health benefits due to grounding (for example), then it would be quite appropriate to continue in that vein. DaPoets should recall that oftentimes, alignment can only be tested with a cooperative push by another student. In my opinion.

A thought: Part of this thread may include actually _defining_ TTCS postures. 

Is the "squaring" of the hips a directive for all TTCS practitioners, or just for the stiff middle-aged beginners, to loosen up the joints by stretching the glutes or something? ... the idea being that once their joints are loosened enough, an open-kua posture, more Yang-style, could be adopted?

Or ... is that interim (squaring) measure even necessary? In order to transform the body to a more aligned, grounded, open state, could the same (e.g. Yang) postures be applied to practitioners of all ages and flexibility levels?

On the other side, do Yang practitioners ever tweak the postures to suit a beginner, then bring them back to the form when the body is prepared?

So many questions ...


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## Xue Sheng

A good stance is a good stance and a bad stance is a bad stance regardless of application. But I remember not to long ago supplied pictures trying to say TTCS' version of Taiji was better for you than other styles too. So before anyone gets offended we need to remember that.

But without actually seeing the TTCS stance I really cannot comment beyond that.

If you look at some of the traditional Yang style stances form the Yang family as compared to the Traditional Yang style stances as they come form Tung Ying Jie I would say that I feel many of the Yang families postures are to high as is their center. 

I am not sure that a comparison between TTCS and Traditional Yang is entirely possible without having them both in front of you (live) to compare. 

As one of the Chen family said of Yang style taiji "it is to high" as a long time Yang style master said of Chen style "it is to low" and from both of their perspectives they are correct but Chen is Chen and Yang is Yang that is all.

I am not a big fan of the TTCS but I do not have enough background in their forms to debate them


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## DaPoets

Mograph, you will find that squaring the hips lets you eventually do a front danyu into that leg.  Many people neglect this aspect of the movements and thus it opens up the lower back for an additional stretch.  This does take some time to develop as not everyone is flexable and strong enough to even get their hips square (forward), let alone do that front sit.

As it has been many years since I have done Yang, I do not recall people speaking of sitting in the front leg while doing single whip... does anyone want to comment on that?


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## DaPoets

I think a quick house keeping rule for this thread, it's kinda like religion... Over 3000 ways of doing things out there and who is to say that their way is the right way... Let's not start wars based on tai chi intollerance ;-)


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## DaPoets

And here is one thing we can all agree on... more people need to get off their couches and do some tai chi...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23358982/


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

The push I was talking about in Single Whip has nothing at all to do with application. If you had known what a Single Whip application was, you would have known that. (The TTCS closed mind again I guess). It has all to do with posture testing, stability, energy transmission, rooting and kua opening. And you are of course describing one of the most elementary aspects of Tai Chi when you talk about empty stepping. 

_*As it has been many years since I have done Yang, I do not recall people speaking of sitting in the front leg while doing single whip... *_then you teacher was ignoring, or did not know some of the basic precepts of Traditional Yang - Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences. Nothing magical, nothing mysterious, nothing difficult at all - simply correct body usage. 

Yang Cheng-fu maintained that there was no difference in training Taiji for martial purposes and training Taiji for health. The process was and is, exactly the same. What I teach my elders is exactly what I teach my martial students. The only difference is that my elders do not practise applications.

You still did not answer my question from the other threat - What improvement did Mr. Moy bring to Traditonal Yang style?

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

Gentleman I think I will bow out of this since I have little to no experience with TTCS forms. :asian:


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## Myrmidon

DaPoets said:


> The start of this thread is already flawed because you are comparing tradtional Yang application where TTCS doesn't have an application due to it's focus on stretching/health/opening the body parts up.  In TTCS nobody is going to be pushing you over thus the stances reflect this.



*I beg to differ, DaPoets. TTCS uses the 108 postures of the traditional Yang style. The traditional Yang Style also seems to be an excellent exercise for health, including some very well known variations such as the Cheng Manching form. *



> If things are going to be compared, then try to compare the apples to apples and oranges to oranges.



*Isn't the TTCS Tai Chi you have been writing about in this forum Tai Chi? Haven't you written numerous comments on TTCS Tai Chi and its virtues for all of us to read and reply? Well, it's time for some side by side comparisons between TTCS Tai Chi and traditional Yang style Tai Chi.... Unless the TTCS wants to start calling their peculiar interpretation of the Yang style something else.*


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## Myrmidon

East Winds said:


> A couple of the main precepts of TTC is that in a bow stance, the heels should be on the same line, and the hips should be squared to the front. The flaw in this can be seen immediately in Single Whip. Squaring of the hips in combination with  the heels on the same line immediately means that you have closed the kuas. In TTCS Single Whip, the right hook hand is at 90 degrees in relation to the left. In other words straight out to the side. In this posture, get someone to push on your hook hand and see how stable your posture is!!!! In Traditional Yang, the heels are separated by some 9 - 12 inches, the right hip is opened to the rear and the right hook hand is over the back leg. The left elbow is above the left knee. Now get someone to push on your hook hand and see the push straight go into the front leg.


*
Although I am a Chen stylist it isn't difficult to tell apart a good posture from a bad posture, regardless of the style. From what I can understand of your description of the first single whip above... it doesn't seem right....*


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## Myrmidon

DaPoets said:


> I think a quick house keeping rule for this thread, it's kinda like religion... Over 3000 ways of doing things out there and who is to say that their way is the right way... Let's not start wars based on tai chi intollerance ;-)



*Well my friend... it so happens that Tai Chi is not a religion, it is a body movement discipline and correct body mechanics and structure happen to be very important.*


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## mograph

Myrmidon said:


> *Well my friend... it so happens that Tai Chi is not a religion, it is a body movement discipline and correct body mechanics and structure happen to be very important.*



Indeed, but as you know, there are variations from style to style, though they all have certain things in common ... which is what you're saying, if I read you, Myrmidon. 

Maybe we could review certain principles of body mechanics common to all styles of Tai Chi? (trying, for now, to avoid metaphors such as "softness within hardness")

- stability
- rootedness
- sensitivity
- relaxing into a posture 
- structural alignment to resist forces ...?


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## DaPoets

East Winds said:


> DaPoets,
> 
> The push I was talking about in Single Whip has nothing at all to do with application. If you had known what a Single Whip application was, you would have known that. (The TTCS closed mind again I guess).



I do know what a single whip application is...


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## mograph

Here's a link that describes the necessity of an applied force's travelling from the left palm to the right foot. Would squaring of the hips maintain or prevent this?

Here's another discussion on single whip application.

DaPoets, what's your application?


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## grydth

DaPoets said:


> And here is one thing we can all agree on... more people need to get off their couches and do some tai chi...
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23358982/



We most certainly *cannot* all agree on that.... especially as that would entail placing that thing you do in the same class as the Tai Chi Chuan the rest of us here practice.... and obtaining said agreement is likely the base reason that brought you to this forum in the first place. After all, what else would you even be doing on a martial arts forum when your claim to fame (or infamy) is extracting the martial aspects from a martial art.... to make it a fusion religion you concede the vast majority do not even practice?

The basic post is itself a red herring to distract from what East Winds wanted to do, a factual detailed comparison between what Yang Tai Chi was and what you have turned it into. Small wonder you don't want *that* discussed, and avoid East Winds search for detail on each thread!

No, I feel one would be better on a couch than with your crowd..... Yes, on a couch watching the Military Channel.


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## DaPoets

Wow grydth, very insightful into your personality...



grydth said:


> We most certainly *cannot* all agree on that.... especially as that would entail placing that thing you do in the same class as the Tai Chi Chuan the rest of us here practice.... and obtaining said agreement is likely the base reason that brought you to this forum in the first place. After all, what else would you even be doing on a martial arts forum when your claim to fame (or infamy) is extracting the martial aspects from a martial art.... to make it a fusion religion you concede the vast majority do not even practice?
> 
> The basic post is itself a red herring to distract from what East Winds wanted to do, a factual detailed comparison between what Yang Tai Chi was and what you have turned it into. Small wonder you don't want *that* discussed, and avoid East Winds search for detail on each thread!
> 
> No, I feel one would be better on a couch than with your crowd..... Yes, on a couch watching the Military Channel.


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## grydth

DaPoets said:


> I think a quick house keeping rule for this thread, it's kinda like religion... Over 3000 ways of doing things out there and who is to say that their way is the right way... Let's not start wars based on tai chi intollerance ;-)



East Winds does not raise a "*tolerance*" issue..... nor to my knowledge have any of your other critics. I have seen no moderator threaten to remove you, nor has anyone advocated your banning. Nobody has proposed the TCCS be banned or suppressed. There has been no intolerant behavior by either Forum Admin or members. 

What you are attempting is a suppression of criticism. Your apparent equating of pointed criticism and sharp inquiry with intolerance is exactly the tactic one would expect from a cult....and too often in the past, smearing the questioner has worked. Not this time.

What you seek is *unquestioning acceptance*, not mere tolerance. Not here.


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## grydth

DaPoets said:


> Wow grydth, very insightful into your personality...



My wife has the Phd in Psychology, you do not. Save us the psychobabble and the character assassination. But then.... what else do you have with which to deflect East Winds thread?


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## DaPoets

East Winds said:


> DaPoets,
> 
> _*As it has been many years since I have done Yang, I do not recall people speaking of sitting in the front leg while doing single whip... *_then you teacher was ignoring, or did not know some of the basic precepts of Traditional Yang - Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences. Nothing magical, nothing mysterious, nothing difficult at all - simply correct body usage.
> 
> You still did not answer my question from the other threat - What improvement did Mr. Moy bring to Traditonal Yang style?
> 
> Very best wishes



As for my old teacher of Yang, I was trying to say that I don't remember/recall as I wasn't being intensely trained in Yang and so I just don't remember everything that was said and taught that many years ago.  It has nothing to do w/ the teacher ignoring things, I was admitting my abscense of memory on the matter.

As for as your odd question of what Mr. Moy did to Yang Style to improve it, I never said he did anything to improve it... so I don't know why I'm being asked this and probably why I neglected to answer it in another post.  I probably said he modified it to focus more on the healing and longevity principles of Taoist teachings but to say something like Yang Style was made better by Mr. Moy are not words or a claim that I have made...


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## DaPoets

grydth did I abuse you in a former life or something? *I am not* the TTCS spokes person so I'm conducting a conversation as  best I can with my experience and knowledge on the matter.  



grydth said:


> My wife has the Phd in Psychology, you do not. Save us the psychobabble and the character assassination. But then.... what else do you have with which to deflect East Winds thread?


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## grydth

DaPoets said:


> grydth did I abuse you in a former life or something? *I am not* the TTCS spokes person so I'm conducting a conversation as  best I can with my experience and knowledge on the matter.



Then please limit said "conversation" to addressing the topic introduced by East Winds. My alleged personality defects and past life escapades have nothing to do with specified topic.


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## DaPoets

This thread has become useless East Winds... You can PM me and we can talk about our experiences with out unproductive comments and accusations.  I'm done w/ this thread due to grydth.


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## grydth

DaPoets said:


> This thread has become useless East Winds... You can PM me and we can talk about our experiences with out unproductive comments and accusations.  I'm done w/ this thread due to grydth.



What a cowardly cop out. Sling the mud and then run away from hard questions in a debate using the target as the pretext. Dishonorable.... but we've seen this before when this character wanted to avoid unpleasant questions.

Coward.:bs:


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## DaPoets

Xue Sheng, I have grown to respect and pay close attention to your comments, criticisms, and suggestions as you have given them in a way that may be blunt, but also in a way that makes people want to grow and learn more, plus you have been respectful with humility.  I do hope that more on this forum learn from your style.



Xue Sheng said:


> A good stance is a good stance and a bad stance is a bad stance regardless of application. But I remember not to long ago supplied pictures trying to say TTCS' version of Taiji was better for you than other styles too. So before anyone gets offended we need to remember that.
> 
> But without actually seeing the TTCS stance I really cannot comment beyond that.
> 
> If you look at some of the traditional Yang style stances form the Yang family as compared to the Traditional Yang style stances as they come form Tung Ying Jie I would say that I feel many of the Yang families postures are to high as is their center.
> 
> I am not sure that a comparison between TTCS and Traditional Yang is entirely possible without having them both in front of you (live) to compare.
> 
> As one of the Chen family said of Yang style taiji "it is to high" as a long time Yang style master said of Chen style "it is to low" and from both of their perspectives they are correct but Chen is Chen and Yang is Yang that is all.
> 
> I am not a big fan of the TTCS but I do not have enough background in their forms to debate them


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## mograph

Boy, _ad hominem_ attacks really kill a thread. Both of you contributed to bringing it down. Enough.

We're talking about the forms. If you want to sling somebody, whether in defence or not, walk away from the computer and do some Tai Chi or something. Then look at the first posts and come up with something useful.

Thank you.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I trained briefly with the Taoist Tai chi Society (I think a week)
 From my experience and comparing it with my current internal style teachers there is a big difference.
 As I recall doing the forms there was no mention of the internal principles.
I was also told within the society when doing a certain form pretend that a person is attacking and you are blocking, but we do not do martial application. I always felt that was a bit odd to use that analogy.

As I was told by one of Jwing Ming Yang's students these in regards to Taoist Tai chi:

Read the Tai chi classics and compare it.


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## Quotheraving

DaPoets could you please post a link to video footage representing what you would consider good examples of the TTCS form, I am not familiar with this take on the Yang style.


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## DaPoets

Quotheraving, I have looked and have not seen video online as of yet even though there are plenty videos around to purchase...  I was hoping to find video of the last couple Awareness Days where a couple thousand people were all doing Taoist Tai Chi in Toronto but have not seen that pop up either on the web.  I will keep looking.

Jadecloud-
Instructors are not supposed to be speaking of a martial application when teaching the form for a large number of reasons.... the main one is that the instructors themselves are not trained in the martial application so why should they be speaking about it to their students...  I'm sorry you had an instructor for a brief moment that steered away from the structured teaching format.  Also in Beginner Classes, internal principles shouldn't really be spoken of because those are covered in the continuing classes.  The Beginner Classes are to get the students to learn the basics of the 108 movements as they only last for 3 months.


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## MJS

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## tshadowchaser

After reading the first 2 posts in this thread I am led to believe that TTCS is only about movement and internal flow without having any martial application. That in and of itself makes me wonder why the martial application was taken out but that is not what the thread is about the original post asks for a comparison of the postures.

The single whip stance/movement was the opening one suggested, can we have a few more of them presented with a brake down of foot, hand, body placement. I know that many of the reasons for variation may be because of application so PLEASE allow the explanation and if your style dose not do a martial application tell why the stance is the way it is: balance. Etc.

how about starting with the first or 2nd movement and going from there?


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## Myrmidon

*It would be very helpful if a photo or illustration of the posture to be discussed is shown.*


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## Flying Crane

DaPoets said:


> ...TTCS doesn't have an application due to it's focus on stretching/health/opening the body parts up. In TTCS nobody is going to be pushing you over thus the stances reflect this.


 
If this is the focus of TTCS, why is the form done at all?  Why not practice a system of qi-gong?


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## mograph

Myrmidon said:


> *It would be very helpful if a photo or illustration of the posture to be discussed is shown.*



They're group shots, but they might have to do, until a shot of Mr. Moy comes along. Here's single whip (also here), brush knee, and grasp bird's tail (looks like "press"). 

More are out there.


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## pete

I'm sorry, but this discussion is like doing an online winetasting... or better still, comparing a pint of Guinness vs O'Doulls.  Tastes great, Less Filling... then the Guinness guy says 'well i can get wrecked on 5 pints, how about you and your O'Doulls'... not fair, he says, the great Brew-master Martin O'Doull intentionally took out the alcohol. Let's keep the comparisons on taste only... YEAH RIGHT, LETS DISCUSS WHAT A BREW TASTES LIKE ON THE INTERNET.

How 'bout this... sell whatever beer you want to whoever will drink them, for whatever reason, preference, and need they have.  There is room for everyone to drink what they want, and feel good about it... without having every critic and elitist under the sun come out and shove their self proclaimed propriety up under their skirt.

there.  now that that's outta the way, i am going to kick back and enjoy a 'Guinness' or two of my own.

peace out,
pete.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> Instructors are not supposed to be speaking of a martial application when teaching the form for a large number of reasons.... the main one is that the instructors themselves are not trained in the martial application so why should they be speaking about it to their students... I'm sorry you had an instructor for a brief moment that steered away from the structured teaching format. Also in Beginner Classes, internal principles shouldn't really be spoken of because those are covered in the continuing classes. The Beginner Classes are to get the students to learn the basics of the 108 movements as they only last for 3 months.


 
Dear Dapoets,
Thanks for explaining that. I think the reason they did was to help get the feel for the form I found when it was explained that way did my understanding of the form work well. I found that teacher within the society and my teacher now who studies Chen and Yang to have similarites.  I guess each of us find what is appealing and go from there.
:cheers:


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## mograph

Flying Crane said:


> If this is the focus of TTCS, why is the form done at all?  Why not practice a system of qi-gong?



Maybe "became the focus" is more accurate. It might have been an evolutionary thing from martial TC to non-martial TC, where it eventually became hard to make an extreme change to drop Tai Chi from the entire program.  As the story goes, Mr. Moy began getting a bunch of aggressive types in his classes, so he dropped the martial component from the form and kept teaching the form without it. Also, people might have found straight Qigong exercises boring, and dropped out. Maybe people wanted to learn a package of moves that could be practiced without much thought as to "now, which one shall I do next?" 

We of course realize, that though some things may seem big, organized and institutionalized, they may have come to be through small, informal, spur-of-the-moment decisions ... the impact of which could not have been foreseen at the time.

I'm speculating, of course. Maybe it hit the sweet spot with a lot of people: more movement than yoga, an international brand, "kung fu" moves without getting hurt...?


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## Flying Crane

mograph said:


> They're group shots, but they might have to do, until a shot of Mr. Moy comes along. Here's single whip (also here), brush knee, and grasp bird's tail (looks like "press").
> 
> More are out there.


 
I don't claim that my own taiji is tops by any means, but it seems to me from those photos, that there is a tendency to stiffen the body and lean excessively forward...


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## mograph

Flying Crane said:


> I don't claim that my own taiji is tops by any means, but it seems to me from those photos, that there is a tendency to stiffen the body and lean excessively forward...



Yep, unless they've changed things, the hallmark of the form was to align the back leg and torso -- no bend/curve at the hips/waist.

However ... in a TTCS book for beginners, he did not adhere to this dictum in every (copyrighted) photo. I think the dictum became institutionalized, while it was only meant as a temporary measure for beginners.


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## Formosa Neijia

tshadowchaser said:


> After reading the first 2 posts in this thread I am led to believe that TTCS is only about movement and internal flow without having any martial application.



The problem is what they're doing won't bring good movement, qi flow. or even great health.

One of the most difficult things for people to accept is that taiji is about more than doing something slowly. Just because someone is moving slowly doesn't mean they are moving correctly. Usually they aren't.

The push hands and applications are there to reinforce the correct way of moving. If you're moving correctly, those practices will show you. If not, they give you clues about what to correct.

Feeling qi flow, especially, depends on moving in a fairly specific way. It WILL NOT just happen one day by accident unless you're very lucky.  So the TTCS are just deluding themselves.

Their claims to be practicing for health is also just a cover because anything that gets people out of their chairs is good for their health to an extent. The health that CORRECT taiji practice can bring is much deeper and more profound, but again people that are practicing as TTCS does will never find it.


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## DaPoets

People actually do get great bennifits from doing Taoist Tai Chi. So much so that we hold special "Health Recovery" Classes for specialized instruction for those with some type of aliment.  Through Master Moy's extensive understanding of Taoist healing arts, Yang style taijiquan, qigong, and other arts, I have to belive that he knew what he was doing when paying attention to qi flow...  I'm sure he learned something from growing up in a Taoist Monistarty.


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## DaPoets

More pics here:  http://www.taoist.org/content/standard.asp?name=AwarenessDay2006Gallery
http://www.taoist.org/content/standard.asp?name=AwarenessDay2004Gallery


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## DaPoets

This is a shot of a group doing Lok Hup Ba Fa


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## DaPoets

Here is a small picture of a couple people doing single whip in Orangeville...


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## Myrmidon

mograph said:


> They're group shots, but they might have to do, until a shot of Mr. Moy comes along. Here's single whip (also here), brush knee, and grasp bird's tail (looks like "press").
> 
> More are out there.


*
Thanks for the photos. I can observe that the postures are different from what I have seen in traditional Yang style. The bottom line would be how are these modified Yang postures better than the traditional Yang postures for health purposes? In these photos it is evident that the kua is closed... how is this better for health?*


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## bigfootsquatch

Myrmidon said:


> *Thanks for the photos. I can observe that the postures are different from what I have seen in traditional Yang style. The bottom line would be how are these modified Yang postures better than the traditional Yang postures for health purposes? In these photos it is evident that the kua is closed... how is this better for health?*


 
Exactly, I see no reason why(or how) anyone would modify a style for purely health purposes when the original style had health AND martial applications built in. 

NOW, I could understand if the creator had the experience the Yang Lu Chan(chen to yang) or Cheng Fu(old frame to big frame) had....but I seriously doubt he did. 

At any rate, I haven't the slightest bit of knowledge of Taoist Tai Chi, so I will not bash it till I try it....but that single whip group picture was definitely full of bad postures, regardless of whether it was tai chi, qigong, or even an external style :asian:


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## Formosa Neijia

DaPoets said:


> People actually do get great bennifits from doing Taoist Tai Chi. ... I have to belive that he knew what he was doing when paying attention to qi flow...  I'm sure he learned something from growing up in a Taoist Monistarty.



Judging from the pics you posted, I say he wasted his time completely if those pics are supposed to show the results of what he learned. 

Any time people get out of their chairs to do ANYTHING, they will receive a small health benefit. Walking, playing with the kids, step aerobics -- it doesn't matter. The health benefit of general movement is NOT the same things as the health that CORRECT taiji practice will bring.

Most of the obese people in your photos will benefit from doing anything, period. That doesn't by a long stretch make it correct taiji.


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## jamelser

Hi All,

So now that all the nitty gritty conversation is out of the way, maybe the first question that should be debated is  ......What are the improvements individuals have found/sees/gets, when practicing your style of tai chi.

Not who is correct, because that leads to disharmony. Ie....can take a kick to the abdomin......can you do that (*smiling here*)

More seriously now, discussions on generating power from the spine. Expressing applications of force through either, the bones or the tendons or using the internal fluids as a pump. Or maybe it could be loss of pressure points through the training, the body becomes like a baby. Or creating heat in the belly on demand. Or get more esoteric and express the flow of energy through the macrocosmic unit, in both directions. 

Or maybe some of the parameters could be based simple on.... 
Focus / concentration/ intention
Flexibility
Control
Power
Movement
Strength

And from there we could discuss the relative context or degrees of separation.

I think it is really naive to take a snap shot and make a judgement call on that. Context, perspective, application when reviewing a picture needs to be in place.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
But cause I am sucker for punishment.I will comment on the picture in post #42 of the man in glasses and funky brown pants. I expect a similar post for comparision.

Feet in line with each other, Back leg straight, front knee bend, slight bend in torso, pelvis turned. EXPLANATION - Pelvis turned works on the larger, outside muscles and tendons. The big wide turns trains the body to understand turning into a joint as well as strengthens both legs through the turn. Keeping the back leg straight allows a completion for the muscle to relax and have the weight in the front (drop into hip) That last completion is as well introducing the practitioner to resting in the bones (back leg feels it first). The bend in the torso is to help start the gentle stretch in the spine, with a desired goal to access the sacral joint and tail bone. While doing these movements as a progressive unit it helps to change the physiology of the body more in a systematic way. 

I could talk on all aspects more but I think, I will take the turning of the hips as my focus. Through development, the muscles, tendons change and hopefully the practitioner is ready to do other things. Maybe they will be taught to step shorter or longer. Stretch further (really lean), or not at all. Challenging not just the physical body but the spacial placement of the body with itself. (These gross exaggerated movements I would suspect are the bane of peoples complaints with in the tai chi community). The turning becomes less exaggerated and more continous at both ends of the turn. Usually being understood in the hips then with in the spine, then eventually in the tail bone. Reflection is place on how these movements activate the body. Ie.....why does my kidney fell like it is moving, etc. Weight transfer, rising, falling all become a part of the turning over time until it becomes natural. 

As the body is tempered the form can get radicalized again to an almost no external movement, form, where all movement is expressed internally, through the spine. Back is pretty much upright, weight shift in legs is constant throughout the whole form. A natural spiral from foot to head is produced but for the outside viewer, it looks like a slow walk in the wind.


Anways, I want to write a bit more, but I am tired and have to get the kids up tomorrow for school. Look forward to a response. And sorry for being long winded

Thanks,
Regards,
J


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Seeing the picture and mechanics you do not have to be a Tai chi player to see obvious bad posture. 



> More seriously now, discussions on generating power from the spine. Expressing applications of force through either, the bones or the tendons or using the internal fluids as a pump. Or maybe it could be loss of pressure points through the training, the body becomes like a baby. Or creating heat in the belly on demand. Or get more esoteric and express the flow of energy through the macrocosmic unit, in both directions.


 How can you achieve this if you have bad posture or do not follow the principles of Song(relax) and Chen(sink)? How can you generate any energy?  Clearly the pictures show tension in the shoulders and not a firm root. This by no means speaks for all Taoist Tai chi society but clearly we can see from the picture Tai chi that is not a good representation.


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## DaPoets

I'm not sure what you mean about "bad posture".  Granted when you have group shots of people having a range of experience you can't generalize much from that but at least from my experience, my shoulders are always relaxed, my root is very firm shifting weight from leg to leg.  there are plent of up down motions when about to do a new step and this is there to help work the spine (sort of like a one legged squat).  They are light steps, then the weight is slowly shifted.  For me I am at the point of feeling the ground at my bubbling springs and understanding the push and receptive force/pressure during weight transfer and movement. 

Again group shots are a good measure of what is kind of going on, but who knows the level of understanding of those in the shots...


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## Formosa Neijia

DaPoets said:


> Again group shots are a good measure of what is kind of going on, but who knows the level of understanding of those in the shots...



I think this is what so many people are trying to help you see. The level of understanding of those in the groups shots is obvious -- there is NO understanding evident. This seems obvious to everyone else other than you. Why is that? 

Yes, group shots are a very good measure of that is practiced by TTCS. And it's terrible.

You really have no excuse. There is far, far too much information out there for you to be ignorant of it. Yang Chen-fu's book has been translated. Fu Zhong-wen's book has been translated. Fu's videos are available for free on youtube. Chen Wei-ming's book have been translated. Yang Zhen-duo's DVDs are widely for sale. 

There's just no excuse for a practice as poor as this.


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## Xue Sheng

Gentleman after seeing the supplied pictures I thougt these pictures of single whip should be posted

Single Whip - Yang Chengfu






Tung Ying Chieh






Tung Hu Ling






Dong Zeng Chen







And you can go here for more comparisons

Comparative postures - Yang Style


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## mograph

The wealth of information is not really relevant to the TTCS's position that Mr. Moy's way is the only way. If any TTCS instructors teach anything outside the instruction approved by the TTCS Instructional Committee, they must keep it quiet or risk losing their classes or their location.

I think it goes like this: traditional Tai Chi instruction is too difficult for the average person to understand and retain. It requires imagination, and it's difficult for a lot of adults to use their imagination to picture themselves rooting, to look inside to develop sensitivity and so on. The TTCS, in its instruction to the mass membership, avoids such discussions and focuses on movements that can be easily verified by visual examination by instructors. Certainly, if there is any discussion of the internal aspects of qi, rooting, yin/yang and other subtle aspects of the art, it must be kept for a small group who are in favor with the TTCS leadership, since it hasn't been a part of the approved curriculum for continuing students. Unless a lot has changed in the last couple of years.

To be fair to the TTCS exercise, it provides a gentle calisthenic for a lot of middle-aged and senior people, and does them a lot of good. The members also provide a nice social environment at the grass-roots level, as long as the TTCS leadership leaves things alone. And I know some people who do good work with people with health issues. And they have a great facility in Orangeville.

I think the choice was to help a _lot of people a little bit _with TTCS exercise, or to help _fewer people a lot_ with Taiji that adheres to the classic principles. They picked the former. <shrug>

But is it any better or deeper than the friendly Tai Chi class at the YMCA? No. Just bigger. In my opinion.


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## DaPoets

mograph that was fairly insiteful and you made a lot of good points.  Master Moy Lin Shin did want to help the masses, do things for the community, encourage cultural exchange, spend time helping the elderly and the sick, and to promote the healing aspect of tai chi. In doing this, the vast majority of the TTCS membership will only attain a certain level of understanding when it comes to tai chi and it's principles.  BUT, for those that want to excel in it, there are plenty ways to do this as there is a deep and vast knowledge of tai chi out there in TTCS.  Granted the martial art application won't be taught but the benefits that focus on health, balance, strength, clarity, rooting, relaxing, alchemy, physiology, is all out there and can be grasped, studied, understood and practiced.  Not many will have that opportunity as there are only a select few with that deep knowledge and it is just lucky for me that I train under them now and very often.  There are things I am taught that perhaps the average person in those group shots will never see because my development is easily noticable I have been told.
For example (brief example), even though I take Tony Kwon's class once a week, another international instructor was told by Tony to teach me some things while we were in another city.  That international instructor gets the experience of teaching me something that isn't taught often, and then Tony gets the experience of eventually seeing me practice it, and obviously I have gained this experience as well.

Taoist Tai Chi has many stages.  Most times people walk in the door needed to so extra long streching in moves like grasp birds tail and then the outside TTCS world says "what are they doing?" when the goal is to actually get that person to open up and then they will hopefully eventualy get to the point where their internals will naturally stretch and gain those same benifits from a long stretch but not having to stretch as far thus keeping a solid rooting, better balance transfer, all with less effort yet stronger foundation.  CLEARLY, this takes years/decades.


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## mograph

DaPoets, are there any videos or photos of top-level TTCS practitioners available on the web for form comparison?


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## DaPoets

There is a video of Master Moy doing the Tai Chi set as well as another one of him doing the 1st half of Lok Hup Ba Fa.  I have never searched the web to see if it is out there but I have the VHS of him doing the 1st half of Lok Hup Ba Fa.  There is a book of him doing the tai chi set.  Keep in mind that this is the book for beginners, to keep the form easy to learn in the beginners class.  I don't know what the rules are about posting links to things for sale on this forum so if the link gets removed by a moderator I understand.  

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Taoist-Ta...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209138536&sr=8-1


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## East Winds

Formosa Neijia
_*
"I think this is what so many people are trying to help you see. The level of understanding of those in the groups shots is obvious -- there is NO understanding evident. This seems obvious to everyone else other than you. Why is that? "*_

You've hit the nail very squarely on the head. There are none so blind as cannot see. They have been told that squaring the hips, closing the heels, sinking into the front hip and stretching forward will help to stretch the spine and massage the internal organs. Of course what it will do is, close the kuas, stick out the backside (so evident in most of the TTCS postures), stiffen the back leg, cause tension in the shoulders and generally produce a very unstable posture. All of these aspects can be seen in the photographs produced by DaPoets. She must consider them good examples of TTCS practise or she would not have posted them. But then jamesler (obviously another very experienced TTCS person) tells us 
_*"I think it is really naive to take a snap shot and make a judgement call on that". *_Who is correct?

mograph,

Good and useful input to this discussion.

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the "GOOD" examples of Single Whip. TTCS members - have a good look at the Yang and Tung postures to see relaxed, stable, open, rooted, strong energy producing Single Whips.

Very best wishes


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## mograph

More TTCS photos can be found here.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> More TTCS photos can be found here.


 
I can't judge the entire TTCS by a few pictures, if I did then the pictures that were produced a little while ago to show how bad for the knees traditional taiji was as compared to TTCS would be acceptable as proof and they are not and then I could also say that all Chen, Yang, Wu and Zhaobao are bad based on a few pictures and a few people I have seen do them that were awful. As a matter of fact I saw hundreds of people doing VERY bad Beijing 24 form Taiji in Tian Tan  park in Beijing but I cannot say all taiji is bad based on that either.

What I can say is from what I see in these pictures I see to many locked elbows, locked knees, to many people way to front weighted and way to extended and in many cases no root.

Not all of the people in these pictures are doing this but an awful lot are.


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## mograph

Maybe then, if the best practitioners are representative of an art, and we have shots of Yang Cheng-fu _et al_, then it would be good to compare online videos and stills of the best practitioners of the TTCS exercise. To compare apples with apples, as it were.


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## DaPoets

East Winds -  I posted the pictures to help with the discussion, not as a reason to show good or bad Taoist Tai Chi but to show how some people do it.  

One thing I find interesting is that many here have shot down most of TTCS's techniques and say they can't be healthy (front sitting, square hips, etc...) and yet over the decades there have been plenty medical journals with detailed explainations by doctors (western doctors) as to why and how these techniques are helping people.  

Now I already know everyone is asking "well post the journals..." and yes I'll look into them.  Most of the ones I have read are in 3 ring binders in our branch archives but there are some online.


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## DaPoets

mograph said:


> Maybe then, if the best practitioners are representative of an art, and we have shots of Yang Cheng-fu _et al_, then it would be good to compare online videos and stills of the best practitioners of the TTCS exercise. To compare apples with apples, as it were.


 

That's an idea... comparing a group of random TTCS members w/ historical tai chi figures...  I decided to not even point that out but thanks for doing it mograph.  I will try to post some still immages of Mrs. Kwon doing Hsing-I, I'm sure you all will have fun ripping that appart lol.


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## mograph

DaPoets said:


> ... comparing a group of random TTCS members ...



Well, thats all we have right now.


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## Myrmidon

DaPoets said:


> One thing I find interesting is that many here have shot down most of TTCS's techniques and say they can't be healthy (front sitting, square hips, etc...) and yet over the decades there have been plenty medical journals with detailed explainations by doctors (western doctors) as to why and how these techniques are helping people.



*In my case, I am just asking how the TTCS way of doing the postures of its interpretation of the Yang style 108 form is better than the traditional way of doing these postures. I understand that if changes were introduced to the form in order to enhance its health benefits, I would like to know if in effect these changes brought an improvement over the traditional form and how it was so.*



> Now I already know everyone is asking "well post the journals..."



*Yes indeed...  


*


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## Myrmidon

DaPoets said:


> One thing I find interesting is that many here have shot down most of TTCS's techniques and say they can't be healthy (front sitting, square hips, etc...) and yet over the decades there have been plenty medical journals with detailed explainations by doctors (western doctors) as to why and how these techniques are helping people.



*About health oriented Tai Chi we also have the "Tai Chi for Arthritis", "Tai Chi for Diabetis" and other "forms for other diseases". I have seen the Tai Chi for Arthritis form. It is basically an abreviated and simplified Sun style form that is being marketed as "Tai Chi for Arthritis". These forms were composed by Paul Lam, MD*


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## mograph

Maybe in this discussion, as in many, framing is everything.

Are we talking about the highest level of abilities of a given style's practitioners, the lowest level, or the average level? Or the range of abilities?

Here's a question for the trad taiji folks: say you had a new crop of students, from a senior with a touch of arthritis to a young athlete, with various ages and abilities in-between. A tough group to be sure, but how would traditional taiji approach the instruction of this group? And how would they look after two years, say? What would be consistent throughout the group, and what wouldn't?

(by the way, this is a real question on how to approach a group with varying ages and abilities, not a challeng)


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## pete

Myrmidon said:
			
		

> About health oriented Tai Chi we also have the "Tai Chi for Arthritis", "Tai Chi for Diabetis" and other "forms for other diseases". I have seen the Tai Chi for Arthritis form. It is basically an abreviated and simplified Sun style form that is being marketed as "Tai Chi for Arthritis". These forms were composed by Paul Lam, MD


 
i've got a student that is 'certified' to teach the afore mentioned tai chi for arthritis, and is actively teaching it. i asked for a demo and a description of what specifically would make it 'for arthritis' as opposed to any other tai chi... 

response: not sure. so i assigned homework: (a) give it some thought, (b) do some research, and (c) compare those qualities to the tai chi being learned through me. 

i have absolutely no problem with that forms existence, nor my student's practice and teaching of it. i do encourage one to know the why's of what one does, therefore the homework assignment. And, i do welcome the opportunity to learn through my student's experiences... however, i do seriously doubt that there is any therapeutic quality that is specific to that form. 

by the way, i am a believer that the qualities that make tai chi an efficient and effective martial art, are the exact same qualities that yield its many health benefits.  therefore, joint health is a by product of well disciplined martial training within tai chi. 

pete


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## Myrmidon

pete said:


> i've got a student that is 'certified' to teach the afore mentioned tai chi for arthritis, and is actively teaching it. i asked for a demo and a description of what specifically would make it 'for arthritis' as opposed to any other tai chi...
> 
> response: not sure. so i assigned homework: (a) give it some thought, (b) do some research, and (c) compare those qualities to the tai chi being learned through me.


*
An excellent thought-stimulating homework!*



> i have absolutely no problem with that forms existence, nor my student's practice and teaching of it. i do encourage one to know the why's of what one does, therefore the homework assignment. And, i do welcome the opportunity to learn through my student's experiences... however, i do seriously doubt that there is any therapeutic quality that is specific to that form.


*I agree... As abreviated and simplified forms they may be easier to learn and perform for older folks who may have some mobility limitations... but I don't think they have more therapeutic value than other abreviated and simplified forms.*



> by the way, i am a believer that the qualities that make tai chi an efficient and effective martial art, are the exact same qualities that yield its many health benefits.  therefore, joint health is a by product of well disciplined martial training within tai chi.


*Absolutely... *


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## JadecloudAlchemist

From the different pictures I have seen
http://alabama.usa.taoist.org/images/ttcsanime5.gif


http://illinois.usa.taoist.org/PeopleTaiChi.jpg


http://www.flickr.com/photos/henricr/353998845/in/photostream/

http://ttcs.kos.net/shared/images/RandomSet1/image005.jpg

http://www.taoist.org.nz/images/aware-04.jpg

http://california.usa.taoist.org/images/single_whip.jpg

They all do the same thing!!!

Bad posture is bad posture.

If your posture is bad your Qi will not flow and become blocked. If you arch your spine like that you are not centered and you are not rooted.
 I understand the concept of stretching the spine but even in Yoga is posture to represent balance. Now I know if someone who does not do such stretches will benefit from it I am not debating that, I will debate proper form which I do not see I see tension, no root, stiffness, and bad posture. Now I have taken 6 pictures from a site plus the others that have been posted to draw this conclusion.


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## jamelser

Didn't know where to start, so I will start here. Not picking on anyone, just trying to find a place to start.



East Winds said:


> Formosa Neijia
> 
> They have been told that squaring the hips, closing the heels, sinking into the front hip and stretching forward will help to stretch the spine and massage the internal organs.



Kinda......It will help to loosen the various fascia (muscle, tendons, ligaments) in a broad, exaggerated manner. Massaging the organs takes a while. 



> Of course what it will do is, close the kuas,



In the beginning of training, yes, and it is more prominent in the forward portion of the movement. Through development the openness becomes more prominent. 



> stick out the backside (so evident in most of the TTCS postures)



Yep, no argument there. But again as development occurs that representation diminishes.



> stiffen the back leg, cause tension in the shoulders and generally produce a very unstable posture.



Yes, I can understand that and would generally agree for a large portion of the population, but after a period of development those aspects (stiffness, tension and instability) disappear. It may not appear that way but it does. 





> _*"I think it is really naive to take a snap shot and make a judgement call on that". *_..........
> 
> 
> .......thanks for the "GOOD" examples of Single Whip. TTCS members - have a good look at the Yang and Tung postures to see relaxed, stable, open, rooted, strong energy producing Single Whips.



Interesting because I can also see some faults (not a great word) within those pictures. I can see tension in the shoulders on several, the first pic looks like the low back is curved to much. Some of the participants don't look natural.

The picture with the '10' is very nice though. Belly is dropped, open and round, spine looks stacked, the weight looks like is is dropped through the legs to the floor. Looks, natural.


Anyways, I keep getting pulled with my kids and can't seem to complete my thoughts. I will try and plug in later.


J


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## Xue Sheng

jamelser said:


> Interesting because I can also see some faults (not a great word) within those pictures. I can see tension in the shoulders on several, the first pic looks like the low back is curved to much. Some of the participants don't look natural.
> 
> The picture with the '10' is very nice though. Belly is dropped, open and round, spine looks stacked, the weight looks like is is dropped through the legs to the floor. Looks, natural.


 
Interesting since the first picture is of Yang Chengfu and he was the teacher of the guy in the second picture who was Tung Ying Chieh who was the father and teacher of the guy in the third picture (with the 10) Tung Hu Ling.

And I do not see any of the faults you are pointing out in any of those pictures.


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## jamelser

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Seeing the picture and mechanics you do not have to be a Tai chi player to see obvious bad posture.
> 
> How can you achieve this if you have bad posture or do not follow the principles of Song(relax) and Chen(sink)? How can you generate any energy?  Clearly the pictures show tension in the shoulders and not a firm root. This by no means speaks for all Taoist Tai chi society but clearly we can see from the picture Tai chi that is not a good representation.



I am not going to disagree with the tension issue cause it is there in the picture. My point is, that the form develops from that. I started out just as they look and developed way beyond that. 

The exaggerated stretching does have incredible benefits and prepares the body well for circulation, energy movement, grounding. I know you can't see it but it does. I look at it similar to playing an instrument........a musician has to play music, loud, soft, fast, slow to understand dynamics. That exaggeration is part of a dynamic. Loud...is not the be-all-end-all of music. Neither is soft, etc. It all needs to be integrated.

Unfortunately, when students get one.....AH HA!.... cause they understand 'loud', and they think "that is it....I have found it!".... they stop learning. I think that is what happens to a lot of students in TTCS is that they are stuck in one aspect and not really prepared to go beyond that. 

From a martial point view of striking, blocking, etc, the form that is often displayed in pics, is fairly unstable and not suited for self-defence. BUT.......image if you may.......how better the body and it's defences could be naturally, if one could FIND balance, strength and stability in such and outstretched form. How much stronger would the person would be in a more contained, centered form. Something I have reflected upon and come to my own conclusions on. 

----------------------------------------------------------------
As an aside, I do not advocate 100% for the TTCS and it's teachings. 
I used to.......but that was arrogant of me to do so. There is so much more to absorb and I am grateful that my intuition allowed me to expand. In the same right, it is arrogant of others to state, that there is nothing there in the TTCS form. There is.

What is encouraging is seeing us humans, have a discussion about the merits of all things tai chi......and see if we can come to some understanding.

Anyways, long winded again.

J


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## jamelser

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting since the first picture is of Yang Chengfu and he was the teacher of the guy in the second picture who was Tung Ying Chieh who was the father and teacher of the guy in the third picture (with the 10) Tung Hu Ling.



That is interesting. Thanks


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## mograph

jamelser said:


> Unfortunately, when students get one.....AH HA!.... cause they understand 'loud', and they think "that is it....I have found it!".... they stop learning. I think that is what happens to a lot of students in TTCS is that they are stuck in one aspect and not really prepared to go beyond that.



I've found this to be true as well, in my years with the TTCS and afterward. People who were so open-minded and receptive in beginner class close their minds right after they finish the first iteration of set instruction, and what we see is a bunch of people who never go much beyond the beginner level.



jamelser said:


> From a martial point view of striking, blocking, etc, the form that is often displayed in pics, is fairly unstable and not suited for self-defence. BUT.......image if you may.......how better the body and it's defences could be naturally, if one could FIND balance, strength and stability in such and outstretched form. How much stronger would the person would be in a more contained, centered form. Something I have reflected upon and come to my own conclusions on.



Hmm. I'd have to say, I'm not convinced of that, given what I've experienced by dropping the tailbone, stacking the bones and learning to be stable (not a pushover) while kicking on one leg. If one set of muscles have to be used to maintain an unstable stance, that does not lead to relaxation, healing and tensegrity. It's not good internal structure, in my opinion, because it is supported by unbalanced tension. 

But ... I'll keep an open mind, just as I ask my engineering brothers to keep an open mind when a free-body diagram can't explain why I can't be pushed over while on one leg. 



jamelser said:


> In the same right, it is arrogant of others to state, that there is nothing there in the TTCS form. There is.



True. I think the negative reaction in the community is due to the TTCS's size and apparent claims of superiority. <shrug>


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## Formosa Neijia

This thread reminds me that trying to argue with cult member is a waste of time. They are not mentally capable of "getting it" due to the cult mindset. And no evidence wil convince them otherwise. 

When people claiming to do a YCF-derived Yang style say they see "errors" in YCF's pictures and instead uphold the stuff that TTCS is doing, then the issue is dead as far as I'm concerned.


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## Xue Sheng

Formosa Neijia said:


> This thread reminds me that trying to argue with cult member is a waste of time. They are not mentally capable of "getting it" due to the cult mindset. And no evidence wil convince them otherwise.
> 
> When people claiming to do a YCF-derived Yang style say they see "errors" in YCF's pictures and instead uphold the stuff that TTCS is doing, then the issue is dead as far as I'm concerned.


 
True :asian:


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## jamelser

Formosa Neijia said:


> This thread reminds me that trying to argue with cult member is a waste of time. They are not mentally capable of "getting it" due to the cult mindset. And no evidence wil convince them otherwise.



The same expression could be said of any culture of ideas. Taking a stance that their culture or idea is the best.....has been a fruitless argument since the beginning of time. (Buddhist vs Taoist)(Wicca vs Christianity)(windows vs mac). You yourself are taking that position as well.

The claims of TTCS superiority that morgraph alludes to is not unfounded. It is an underlying tone prevalent in the organization and it seems to get expressed from all sorts of different people. 

Is it appropriate....no way. Is it conducive to harmony....not at all......is it part of the TTCS guidebook....in Big Red Letters (kidding).

If any person came up to me and said "......what you are doing is wrong...." regardless of topic. I would take offence and not be open to any input. If the approach was more, ".....I see your doing it this way, can I share my experience with you.....". I would be way more open to receive information.

From what I have read, what Dapoets is trying to do is create a link between his experience and others. Kudos! Slamming him for being where he is at doesn't create good harmony and only widens the gap further.



> When people claiming to do a YCF-derived Yang style say they see "errors" in YCF's pictures and instead uphold the stuff that TTCS is doing, then the issue is dead as far as I'm concerned.



Kinda like a computer technician telling a plumber that what he is doing is wrong. Both smart people, trained in there respective profession, capable of troubleshooting their problems......

My point with that little exercise was to show how easily critisim can be thrown here, and how easily we can be stuck in our position. 

With my current instructor, if there is a discrepancy between what I was taught before and what I am learning now, he allows me to freely express my understanding, he expresses his understanding. When we are done, I have learn his teaching, he understands where I came from and I keep both versions. Makes me a better person.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
My 7 year old just told me I "Gotta go to a garage sale"

Thanks and Cheers,

J


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## DaPoets

I only have a sec so this is short.  The Taoist Tai Chi society under the direction of Mr. Moy has a focus of improving people's health.  That is 1st and foremost and the initial tool used to do this is the healing qualities of Tai Chi.  

make taoist tai chi available to all
promote the healing qualities of tai chi
cultural exchange
helping others

These 4 aims & objectives are what make the TTCS different from martial arts schools or exercise places.  Many school focus on tai chi and only tai chi, or self defense, and all kinds of things of this nature, but TTCS uses taijiquan as a tool for health as well as many other tools, like lok hup, meditation, chanting, Buddhist exercises, and more...

So when it comes to comparing TTCS tai chi to traditional yang tai chi, there are things that are very similar, as well as things that are very very different.  And Mr. Moy would teach 2 different people the same move but have them do it differently based on their abilities and health, thus you have many different pictures of people doing a move in different ways.  There is development that takes place and years for that to happen.  The basic tai chi set is just that, basic, until that individual's body tells them they are ready for more.


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## pete

there are usually 2 approaches to an artistic endeavor, including those martial... tradition vs change.  clinging to tradition will typically lead to obsolesense, just talk to your friendly neighborhood dinosaur. yet change for change's sake will typically lead to what i regard as finger painting, kindergartners are real creative but do you want that hanging in a museum or on mom's refridgerator?  

real evolution is tricky, and should really come naturally and not forced upon (especially given Tai Chi and its Taoist philosophies.) in established arts even perceptive innovators who actually innovate (trather than finger paint) will be tried for treason while alive and revered posthumously. gotta figure we haven't seen the last of the great tai chi masters, and innovations and improvements will come with time. but not every change is necessarily good, nor bad, just will be as that is a side of human nature... just as reverence for the founders and old masters is another side. 

no winners here, just is... tai chi.

pete


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## Myrmidon

jamelser said:


> From what I have read, what Dapoets is trying to do is create a link between his experience and others. Kudos! Slamming him for being where he is at doesn't create good harmony and only widens the gap further.



*I don't think DaPoets is being "slammed". He/she(?) is presenting a point of view and is receiving feedback. *



> Kinda like a computer technician telling a plumber that what he is doing is wrong. Both smart people, trained in there respective profession, capable of troubleshooting their problems......



*I think you are a bit off track here. DaPoets is expressing him/herself(?) as a Tai Chi practitioner/instructor. Many of us here are practitioners and there are some instructors... so your analogy of the computer technician and the plumber is inappropriate...*



> My point with that little exercise was to show how easily critisim can be thrown here, and how easily we can be stuck in our position.



*I don't see anything wrong with objective criticism... *



> With my current instructor, if there is a discrepancy between what I was taught before and what I am learning now, he allows me to freely express my understanding, he expresses his understanding. When we are done, I have learn his teaching, he understands where I came from and I keep both versions. Makes me a better person.



*Good for you! When I have expressed a different point of view to my teacher, he would tell me: "Let's test it". And when he teaches me something, we always test it. That way we talk less and train more...*


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

Yes, if you go into any of the medical databases like Medline, you will find hundreds of papers published in Medical Journals on the efficacy of Taiji. However you will also find that generally they will refer to "mainline" taiji and not Taoist taiji in particular. In fact I am unaware of any specific medical study where the basis of the study was Taoist Taiji. If there is such a study I would be very interested. 

Like Myrmidon, anytime I think I have a different point of view from my teacher, like Myrmidon's teacher he says lets test it. Then he proceeds to demonstrate where my thinking is flawed  and why he is teaching me and not the other way about. Why does that happen? Because he follows without deviation, Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences. Those very essences that Mr. Moy discarded in favour of his five principles.

Very best wishes


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Thought this may help
Taoist tai chi society





 

Here is Lung men sect of Tai chi





 
Wudang Tai chi





 
Chen Xiaowang





 
Tung Hu Ling




 

I wanted to show how differences between Taoist Tai chi society and the Wudang and Lung men sects.
I wanted to show the evolution from the temples to Chen to Yang in which the principle still remains which can not be seen in the Taoist tai chi pictures or the video clip.


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## Myrmidon

*Some more Chen style by Tian Xiuzhen, 18th generation... disciple of Chen Fake*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGWJxJndw6o&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAx1xHpJpW0&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maPk6w8Yei0&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpiGVC402-U&feature


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## Myrmidon

*Wu Tunan... 101 years old when this was filmed!*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVfkZ7YVrpg&NR=1


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## Myrmidon

*More Yang style taijiquan...

Liu Gaoming*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8&feature


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## DaPoets

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Thought this may help
> Taoist tai chi society



They are probably just a couple weeks into their beginners class...


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> They are probably just a couple weeks into their beginners class...


 Yes but their back posture is the same as all the pictures and as you say... compared to the other Taoist sects who practice Tai chi their backs do not bend like the video or the pictures.


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## Xue Sheng

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Thought this may help
> Taoist tai chi society


 
Why do they lock thier elbows? I have see many examples of TTCS taiji and I have seen a lot of locked elbows



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Here is Lung men sect of Tai chi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wudang Tai chi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chen Xiaowang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tung Hu Ling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to show how differences between Taoist Tai chi society and the Wudang and Lung men sects.
> I wanted to show the evolution from the temples to Chen to Yang in which the principle still remains which can not be seen in the Taoist tai chi pictures or the video clip.


 
Thanks, those were great and I never tire of watching Chen Xiaowang and Tung Hu Ling.

As I have said in other threads, TTCS is doing modified Yang Style but Lungmen and Wudang are doing Taoist Taiji


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Xue, The Lung men tai chi form is said to come from Wudang.
 I see many similarites with the Wudang and Lung men forms.
Another note I see is the stretching involve.


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## jamelser

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Thought this may help
> Taoist tai chi society
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Lung men sect of Tai chi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wudang Tai chi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chen Xiaowang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tung Hu Ling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to show how differences between Taoist Tai chi society and the Wudang and Lung men sects.
> I wanted to show the evolution from the temples to Chen to Yang in which the principle still remains which can not be seen in the Taoist tai chi pictures or the video clip.



Yes Very nice. Thanks. 
I can understand better, the context from where a portion of this discussion is coming from and would of course agree that all the posts from the TTCS do not show this kind of movement. 

I can easily recognize the openness, connectedness and turning of the spine, the buoyancy from the tendons, the expression of power. I was taught much of this, in the TTCS, by a few select instructors (one of them was a 76 year old grandmonther. She beat the living daylights out of me. he he!).

As I reflect back, I remember now that I was often taught these aspects in a more solitary setting. These aspects were never taught in a full group atmosphere. And whenever I tried to show this to my peers, I was often discouraged not to.  Hummmmm........that could explain a few things.


Here are a few of my thoughts as I reflected last night upon this discussion.

Is TTCS tai chi better then others......IMO No
Is is a modified Yang Form.....Yes
Does it have something to offer.....Yes 
Can someone advance and develop.....Yes 
Does the TTCS organization provide a global opportunity to experience this art...yes 
Does it offer a full picture of what tai chi has to offer........No I don't think so.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of questions, that I would still need time to think on

Does it maintain traditional principles......Ooooh, I don't know. Definately  not in the general form, yet there are things I was trained in that look an awful lot like what is being presented. 

Is TTCS tai chi and the organization revolutionary.......Not sure. Is the presentation (how the arts are offered to the public) revolutionary........In this century.......maybe........in this hemisphere.....Yes....in other parts of the world.....No.


I think the general form has been sacrificed through standardization so as to maintain greater accessibility, longevity and sustainability of the organization as a whole. I know that the focus of instruction shifted several times when I was there because of government and internal pressure. 


J


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## jamelser

Xue Sheng said:


> Why do they lock thier elbows? I have see many examples of TTCS taiji and I have seen a lot of locked elbows



One of the main reasons is to pull the scapula and surrounding tissue down and around the rib cage. Rather than the pulling towards the head when in that forward position. In those particular pics, the elbows are too locked to facilitate that. The arms should be straight, but the elbows should not be locked. they should be open a bit. Most people in TTCS don't get that. Hence if you look at that vid, her shoulders are by her ears.

As well, the elbows would be pointed to the ground with the fingers pointed up to help facilitate that pulling. 

If the elbows are locked, a forward push to the hands, would put the force to the shoulders. If the elbows are open, the force would be placed past the shoulders and somewhere in the torso, depending on the tightness of the practitioner and how far forward they would be leaning.


J


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## DaPoets

correct, the fingers should be upward and the elbows pointing down and not locked.  But as I said they are clearly only a few weeks into their beginner class in that video.


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## Xue Sheng

Are there any pictures of the Taoist Taiji version of Snake Creeps down?

Pictures of - 
Snake Creeps Down from the Traditional Yang Style Slow Set


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## DaPoets

TTCS Snake Creep Down looks a lot like this actually...


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## East Winds

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the comparative photographs of Snake Creeps Down. My own personal opinion is that the best posture is shown by Dong Zeng Chen.
(Of course, having said that, they are all superb!!! Its like malt whisky there are no bad ones, its all grades of goodness):rofl:

Very best wishes


----------



## PHElwood

I've  been reading through this discussion, having just joined the forum. I had originally tried the rec.martial-arts forum on google, but found it disappointing (too much insulting back and forth). However, there was one member there, who had an interesting perspective on Taoist Tai Chi, and suggested the reason that the single whip and other moves do not look the same (as in more traditional styles) is that Lok Hup Ba Fa principles of form are being applied in the Taoist Tai Chi set.  

~LPE


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## mograph

PHElwood said:


> I had originally tried the rec.martial-arts forum on google, but found it disappointing (too much insulting back and forth). However, there was one member there, who had an interesting perspective on Taoist Tai Chi, and suggested the reason that the single whip and other moves do not look the same (as in more traditional styles) is that Lok Hup Ba Fa principles of form are being applied in the Taoist Tai Chi set.
> ~LPE



If that's so, could anyone describe the Lok Hup principles which are being applied?


----------



## oxy

mograph said:


> If that's so, could anyone describe the Lok Hup principles which are being applied?



As someone who does Lok Hup, it's hard to apply those principles to Taiji when they are in themselves incorrect...

A whole bunch of the Taoist Tai Chi LHBF stuff isn't LHBF at all.

Most LHBF principles are related to movement and not static postures.

CMC Taiji is a lot closer to any attempt to combine the Taiji form with LHBF principles than Taoist Tai Chi.


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## mograph

Sorry ... "CMC"?  Cheng Man-Ching?

... and do you know where I could find a good guide to LHBF principles? I haven't found a lot of material on LHBF.


----------



## oxy

mograph said:


> Sorry ... "CMC"?  Cheng Man-Ching?



Yes.



> ... and do you know where I could find a good guide to LHBF principles? I haven't found a lot of material on LHBF.



There's a translation of the Five Word Poem (as in, every line has five words) by Paul Dillon. I don't know how accurate it is. There's a John Chung Li translation which is terrible.

I posted the Chinese text of the Five Word Poem in an old LHBF thread and I've been trying to find translators.

The legitimacy of the Five Word Poem is not clear, but the LHBF we see today is certainly developed around it. The Five Word Poem, even if illegitimate, does contain principles found in other arts like Xingyi and Bagua so it's not complete bunk.


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## mograph

I think I have the Dillon translation ... is that the one that lists the original characters, then a literal translation, then the polished English?

Anyway, that's what I have, but it seems to be out on loan right now. I often prefer the literal translation, since he seems to take a bit of license with the polished English translation.


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## DaPoets

The Chinese 5 word Song was translated and comentary added by a fellow student of Master Moy Lin Shin's Lok Hup Ba Fa lineage.  I have both main books "The Chinese 5 Word Song" (Li Tung Fung, Mark McGee, John Chung Li), as well as it's additional commentary "Hwa Yu T'ai Chi Ch'uan: Unlocking the Mysteries of the Five-Word Song" (Glenn Newth, Mark Newth.  I have the correct names on my home computer so tomorrow I can go in more detail to show the connection.
---------------------------------------



oxy said:


> Yes.
> There's a translation of the Five Word Poem (as in, every line has five words) by Paul Dillon. I don't know how accurate it is. There's a John Chung Li translation which is terrible.
> 
> I posted the Chinese text of the Five Word Poem in an old LHBF thread and I've been trying to find translators.
> 
> The legitimacy of the Five Word Poem is not clear, but the LHBF we see today is certainly developed around it. The Five Word Poem, even if illegitimate, does contain principles found in other arts like Xingyi and Bagua so it's not complete bunk.


----------



## kubrick

Hi there (first post!!). I have enjoyed reading this thread hugely, it echoes some of the feelings I have about TTCS. I have been attending a class for three months now and I am noticing certain aspects that I don't like.

Firstly, I should say that it seems to have helped with a repetitive strain injury condition which I suffer from. So it has some benefits. However, most of the above criticisms are bang on. What I found most shocking is 'continuing' students, who are in our class as assistants, not only have extremely poor form, they can't even remember the set!!

Also I question the wisdom of making everyone labouriously memorise the 108 movement set in whichever half-hearted sloppy manner they can, and only AFTER THAT are be given more detailed instruction. What's the point of that, surely everyone will have picked up lots of bad habits by that point??

Anyway, you can tell I'm looking for other class right? And here's another of clip of a TTCS class




 
Cheers. Great thread!


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Kubrick nice first post let me the first to rep you for finding another video.


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## DaPoets

Yeah I remember that old video.  There are plenty opportunities for growth shown in that video.    Keep in mind that they are at a Rec Center and not an actual TTCS Branch Location.  

This is a display of a group just trying to get through the set and have refinements to be made on the movements.  My estimation is that this is a begginers class that is probably still on the 1st 17 moves of the set or so.


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## kubrick

(forgot to do the quote thing!)
DaPoets said "This is a display of a group just trying to get through the set and have refinements to be made on the movements. My estimation is that this is a begginers class that is probably still on the 1st 17 moves of the set or so"
~~~
I agree. So why don't the instructers stop there and refine the techniques? Right now? Start getting these forms correct and 'deeper' instead of ploughing through the next 91 in a 'this will do' kinda style. That's what's happening at my class.


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## mograph

kubrick said:


> So why don't the instructers stop there and refine the techniques? Right now? Start getting these forms correct and 'deeper' instead of ploughing through the next 91 in a 'this will do' kinda style. That's what's happening at my class.



That's the way it works in TTCS. The instructors are under pressure to get the students to the end of the set in 3 months, and review for one month after that. In theory. This is so beginners' classes can start every 4 months. 

Regarding refinement, the idea is that you get through the 108, then you go through the set again in continuing class, at about the same pace, but one level deeper. You get to the end, then go back to the start again, one level deeper. And so on. Different students might get more or less (or different) corrections, _to the best ability of the instructor_. 

Note the last phrase. Considering that the TTCS is promoting marginal students to beginner instructor status (yes, I still have contacts there), that instructor training weeks ("CIT week") are limited to a lot of practice (and speeches on "our charitable acts" and so on) for a vast number of people, those marginal students don't get to advance much. Also, the instructor training seems to be limited to the standardization of the set to a point where it becomes a mild calisthenic, not hurting anybody, but not giving the benefits that traditional Taijiquan instruction can offer.

... unless you're an indoor student such as DaPoets, whose personal instruction in Toronto seems to be very different from that available to most students, in and out of Toronto.

(DaPoet's assessment of the group may be accurate for the poor souls in the back row, but the rest are doing it at the level of most practitioners I've seen in my years in the TTCS.) 

Kubrick, if you want a mild calisthenic, stick with TTCS. If you want the best it can offer, move to Toronto (or vicinity), practice a lot, volunteer a lot and become friends with the Administration. However, if you want good Taijiquan, go somewhere else. The TTCS has changed much due to its growth over the years -- the administration has become more focused on fundraising for the Cultivation Centre than anything else.

Just my opinion.


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## kubrick

Thanks, all very interesting. I can't see me staying with TTCS but at least it offers an accessable introduction ... and its cheap!


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## East Winds

mograph,

That just about says how it is!!! Pretty accurate analysis.The guy leading the group (in the red T Shirt) is doing "good" Taoist Tai Chi. No energy, No co-ordination, No softness, In fact no anything!!! If you really want to find out about how the TTCS teach their form, then this video says (and shows) it all!!

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

The instructors are there on a volunteer basis and don't always have the time to spend more than 3 months on teaching the Tai Chi set.  So, it's split between someone who knows how to do the set (beginner instructor) and then someone who is qualified to help refine the movements (continuing instructor).  If the instructors were there as a full time job then yeah things would probably be different.



kubrick said:


> (forgot to do the quote thing!)
> DaPoets said "This is a display of a group just trying to get through the set and have refinements to be made on the movements. My estimation is that this is a begginers class that is probably still on the 1st 17 moves of the set or so"
> ~~~
> I agree. So why don't the instructers stop there and refine the techniques? Right now? Start getting these forms correct and 'deeper' instead of ploughing through the next 91 in a 'this will do' kinda style. That's what's happening at my class.


----------



## DaPoets

I wouldn't go that far as to say the guy in the red T shirt is doing "good" Taoist Tai Chi.  He needs lots of instruction too....  He is taking half steps just to keep his balance, isn't connected to the ground, and many other things.  



East Winds said:


> mograph,
> 
> That just about says how it is!!! Pretty accurate analysis.The guy leading the group (in the red T Shirt) is doing "good" Taoist Tai Chi. No energy, No co-ordination, No softness, In fact no anything!!! If you really want to find out about how the TTCS teach their form, then this video says (and shows) it all!!
> 
> Very best wishes


----------



## DaPoets

The problem many people have with videos is that when people see a video, they think that this is how things should be done, or are done.  When in fact, that is how that particular group or person is doing it and may not be a good reflection at all of what is taught and practiced or what is taught and SHOULD be practiced.

Again, TTCS is a volunteer instructor organization and everyone knows that there are many levels of a volunteer's heart and commitment to something.  Some are in it for the social side to have tea and cookies, and other are in it for the meditation and chanting, while some are in it for the art of taijiquan and it's many applications and benifits.  And even with all this, one get's out of these 3 areas that they put into them.

I hope this clears some things up.  Toronto was mentioned and yes those in Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Buffalo, tend to be kinda die hard taijiquan due to the proximity of where Master Moy lived and taught while that die hard drive natually gets watererd down the further away you get.  Not that this is a bad thing, but it's common sense and natural.  Master Moy traveled to Austrailia 11 times in 13 years before his passing but even w/ that effort, it's not the same as getting a random phone call saying "he come on up for dinner tonight, I want to show you something" from Master Moy.


----------



## East Winds

"_*He needs lots of instruction too.... He is taking half steps just to keep his balance, isn't connected to the ground, and many other things". 

*_And yet he is allowed to teach and lead a class and he can't even do the basics yet? No wonder the TTCS is treated with such derision.

Very best wishes


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## Flying Crane

DaPoets said:


> Again, TTCS is a volunteer instructor organization and everyone knows that there are many levels of a volunteer's heart and commitment to something.


 
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I did want to point something out related to your statement here.

Volunteering is a great thing, and there is nothing wrong with refusing a fee for your teaching time and expertise.  The problem is that it seems in the martial arts, and in the internal arts like taiji in particular, too many people are teaching who really just should not be teaching.  The internal arts are very subtle and take a fair bit of time and effort to really understand, and not everyone who undertakes their study will ever truly understand it.  Yet it seems everyone is in a hurry to become a teacher.  

I don't understand why anyone has a drive to expand or spread the martial arts to large groups of people.  This inevitably leads to instructors who are less and less worthy and the quality drops overall, because the message of expansion becomes the focus, instead of teaching quality martial arts.  Seems to me that some people want to use the martial arts as a vehicle for other things, and to some extent that can be OK.  Health benefits go hand-in-hand with martial training, including taiji, altho I'm not a supporter of making heath the primary focus if the martial roots are completely ignored or deliberately cast aside.

I just cannot support the notion of people teaching, who are not ready to be teaching, many of whom will simply NEVER be ready to be teaching.  Those people ought to focus on their own training instead.  Whether or not a teacher is a volunteer is immaterial if that person is not ready to be a teacher.  That, in my opinion, trumps all goodwill and volunteerism.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, but I did want to point something out related to your statement here.
> 
> Volunteering is a great thing, and there is nothing wrong with refusing a fee for your teaching time and expertise. *The problem is that it seems in the martial arts, and in the internal arts like taiji in particular, too many people are teaching who really just should not be teaching*. The internal arts are very subtle and take a fair bit of time and effort to really understand, and not everyone who undertakes their study will ever truly understand it. Yet it seems everyone is in a hurry to become a teacher.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone has a drive to expand or spread the martial arts to large groups of people. This inevitably leads to instructors who are less and less worthy and the quality drops overall, because the message of expansion becomes the focus, instead of teaching quality martial arts. Seems to me that some people want to use the martial arts as a vehicle for other things, and to some extent that can be OK. Health benefits go hand-in-hand with martial training, including taiji, altho I'm not a supporter of making heath the primary focus if the martial roots are completely ignored or deliberately cast aside.
> 
> I just cannot support the notion of people teaching, who are not ready to be teaching, many of whom will simply NEVER be ready to be teaching. Those people ought to focus on their own training instead. Whether or not a teacher is a volunteer is immaterial if that person is not ready to be a teacher. That, in my opinion, trumps all goodwill and volunteerism.


 
 :cheers: :high5:
artyon:artyon:

I WILL rep you for this as soon as I can :bangahead:


----------



## mograph

DaPoets said:


> Again, TTCS is a volunteer instructor organization and everyone knows that there are many levels of a volunteer's heart and commitment to something.  Some are in it for the social side to have tea and cookies, and other are in it for the meditation and chanting, while some are in it for the art of taijiquan and it's many applications and benifits.  And even with all this, one get's out of these 3 areas that they put into them.



Yet being instructors, they are all "accredited" by definition. From the TTCS website:
_In keeping with the aims of the Society, all instructors are volunteers. An accredited instructor must meet the standards set by Master Moy and continually upgrade his or her knowledge through attendance at regular classes and workshops. For the student, being taught by a volunteer means receiving attention that is motivated by enthusiasm and belief in the benefits of the art.

To ensure the same quality of instruction and consistency of purpose at all locations, meetings and workshops are frequently conducted at all levels of the organization. Members enjoy the fact that they can visit or transfer to any branch location and find the same style and quality of instruction, as well as the same friendly atmosphere and charitable orientation.

_This implies that the level of instruction is both high and consistent. The alternate assessment by DaPoets is more accurate.


----------



## DaPoets

On the flip side of things, the instructor in the Red could be teaching his 1st begniners class and is fairly new to Taoist Tai Chi himself.  Additionally, he could be 25 years into it and has spent the last 10 years somehow someway not improving his Tai Chi by not adhearing to the continuing intruction in training guidlines and has slipped though the cracks of loosing accrediation if that is the case.  At this point I'm just guessing but it is clear to me that this was a demonstration of what a beginners class could be like.  

In all honesty though, learning the 108 movements at first will be just a dance for many people with out the right type of instruction.  Lots of Tai Chi should be done in the begniners to start to get insight as to what Tai Chi is to them (bodies/spirit) and to really "feel" something different.  It can be a knew way of thought for some, especially for students that come from harder forms.  The Beginners Class may last for 3-4 months and students are given enough for the Continuing Instructors In Training to work with over the years to refine their movements and help them with their own unique Tai Chi development.  I don't want to call the Beginners Class "Fluff" but it somewhat is because many times it's being taught by someone who knows the sequence of the movements and not much else, but this is only for 3-4 months.  Those students now have years of training ahead of them to make those movements their own, guided by much more proficient instructors who had to go through a lot more to become a continuing instructor.

Granted, it's a great thing when Continuing Instructors in Training teach beginners classes and they should from time to time, and you can see the difference in the quality of the students Tai Chi from this.

That's all for now... Back to work...


----------



## Flying Crane

DaPoets said:


> On the flip side of things, the instructor in the Red could be teaching his 1st begniners class and is fairly new to Taoist Tai Chi himself. Additionally, he could be 25 years into it and has spent the last 10 years somehow someway not improving his Tai Chi by not adhearing to the continuing intruction in training guidlines and has slipped though the cracks of loosing accrediation if that is the case.
> 
> ...
> 
> I don't want to call the Beginners Class "Fluff" but it somewhat is because many times it's being taught by someone who knows the sequence of the movements and not much else...


 
And coming back to my prior post, in either count the "teacher" is not ready to teach.  He doesn't understand what he is doing, and cannot pass it on with any level of quality, irregardless of his philanthropic willingness to volunteer his time.

If a personal trainer in a gym volunteered his time and got me working on a fitness program, I'd still want to feel confident that he knows his profession.  I don't question the goodness of his heart, exemplified by his willingness to coach me for free.  A fitness program, including weight lifting, can be done WRONG and can be DANGEROUS.  Under those conditions, at best the training is just ineffectual/worthless, and as worst it could actually injure me, even severely.  The teacher MUST know what he is doing and MUST understand the methods and material, or he simply must not be teaching.

I could find a math tutor to teach me calculus.  Maybe he's a friend of mine and we is willing to tutor me for free.  But if he doesn't fully understand calculus, my progress under his tutelage will be very limited and could even instill some erroneous concepts.  Free or not, if he doesn't understand his subject, his aid is worthless. 

And I'm not necessarily talking about credentials here.  The physical trainer doesn't necessarily need to have a certification, the math tutor doesn't need a teaching credential, and the martial arts teacher doesn't need to have a Sokeship Council certificate on his wall.  But one way or the other, they need to fully understand their craft and be capable of teaching it in an effective manner.  If they are lacking in either of these areas, they should not teach.


----------



## DaPoets

Yep I agree fully.  This is one reason why people are only in the beginners class for a few months, and then move on to a more experienced instructor. (Generally how it works)


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## Flying Crane

DaPoets said:


> Yep I agree fully. This is one reason why people are only in the beginners class for a few months, and then move on to a more experienced instructor. (Generally how it works)


 

Why not have a more experienced teacher teaching the beginners as well?  This might avoid some bad habits forming, and would eliminate some amount of retraining the students would need to do when they are accepted into the next level class...


----------



## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> I don't want to call the Beginners Class "Fluff" but it somewhat is because many times it's being taught by someone who knows the sequence of the movements and not much else, but this is only for 3-4 months.


 
I can't tell you how much I wish you never said this.

A beginners class is the root, the basic the beginning of the training of taiji and IF it is not taken seriously all you get is a bunch of students with bad habits and bad taiji that IF they are to advance they need a WHOLE lot more work to correct the mistakes of an inadequate teacher that views the training of beginners as not that important.

Like with Xingyiquan and Santi Shi (which the TTCS does not emphasize either) it is the root of the root and without that base you have nothing



DaPoets said:


> Those students now have years of training ahead of them to make those movements their own, guided by much more proficient instructors who had to go through a lot more to become a continuing instructor.


 
Too late, they were taught bad form already and NOW it is going to take a whole lot of unnecessary time and effort on the part of the student and the teacher to correct it. But if the training of beginners is viewed as "Fluff" by the more advanced in the TTCS then it is likely the majority of their bad habits that they picked up from their previous bad training that was not taken seriously in the first place by those responsible for their training will be taken equally as lightly from that point on.

If the training of beginners is seen as "Fluff" by those more advance in the TTCS I have to say I am highly unimpressed by the TTCS and before this I have been trying very hard to look at this without bias and give the TTCS the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## DaPoets

Perhaps I was refering to it as "fluff" because it's such a short period of time and because it is so short, people don't have time for bad habbits to form.  Everything is new for the 1st number of years and in my opinion it takes years for bad habbits to actually form.  The real work comes in the continuing classes, the beginners classes are more of an introduction to what Tai Chi has to offer.  

Most don't even remember the details of their beginers classes after a while because they learn so much more in the continuing.


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> Perhaps I was refering to it as "fluff" because it's such a short period of time and because it is so short, people don't have time for bad habbits to form. Everything is new for the 1st number of years and in my opinion it takes years for bad habbits to actually form. The real work comes in the continuing classes, the beginners classes are more of an introduction to what Tai Chi has to offer.
> 
> Most don't even remember the details of their beginers classes after a while because they learn so much more in the continuing.


 
Picking up bad habits can take seconds.


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## Flying Crane

DaPoets said:


> Perhaps I was refering to it as "fluff" because it's such a short period of time and because it is so short, people don't have time for bad habbits to form. Everything is new for the 1st number of years and in my opinion it takes years for bad habbits to actually form. The real work comes in the continuing classes, the beginners classes are more of an introduction to what Tai Chi has to offer.
> 
> Most don't even remember the details of their beginers classes after a while because they learn so much more in the continuing.


 

oooh, I dunno about this.  Sure, whenever someone learns something new, it takes a while to get it right.  That is just part of the process.  But it's important to have an instructor who knows the difference, so he can steer the student in the right direction and cultivate the propagation of good habits and good technique.  If the instructor doesn't understand the difference, the students are allowed to think that their poor technique is correct, then bad habits become engrained.  And nobody even knows the difference.


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## East Winds

_*" Hence the saying in Chinese boxing circles "Learning taijiquan is easy but to correct a wrong style is difficult". In other words, more haste, less speed. And if these people pass on their mistakes to others, they will be doing a great harm"  *_Yang Cheng-fu

Need any more be said?

Very best wishes


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## kubrick

DaPoets said:


> Perhaps I was refering to it [beginers class] as "fluff" because it's such a short period of time and because it is so short, people don't have time for bad habbits to form.
> 
> Most don't even remember the details of their beginers classes after a while because they learn so much more in the continuing.


 
I reckon you could pick up a few bad habits in the 4 months before you can access continuing classes. More to the point though, should an instructor be passing on bad habits ... whatever the level?


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## Xue Sheng

To get back to the comparison and to expand it a bit I have looked at the various forms of Single whip from different Taiji styles. I have not yet found a picture of Zhaobao single whip. Or perhaps I have. Not knowing Zhaobao forms all that well it could be that it is this one but I am not sure  

*Single Whip*

Yang






Cheng Manching
http://djsoooonice.com/myspace/group/cheng-man-ching-single-whip.jpg





Chen  - Chen Xiaowang





Hao &#8211; I am not sure here if this is single whip form Hao style or not.






Wu - Shanghai - Southern





Wu &#8211; Beijing -  Northern
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/9413/images/styles/taiji9.jpg





Sun





Taoist Tai Chi Society
http://www.newmarkettaichi.com/images/group_small.jpg





Thoughts?

There is another posture that I am very interested in comparing to what I have seen in multiple pictures form TTCS and as soon as I have them I will post those as well


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## Xue Sheng

*Punch*

Yang
http://www.geocities.com/yongnian/tj16.jpg





Chen
http://www.taoistsanctuary.org/pictures/cxwpropunch.jpg





Wu/Hao
http://www.martialdevelopment.com/wordpress/wp-content/images/yang-zhenduo-parry-block-punch.jpg





Wu
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/ST44P21b.jpg





Sun &#8211; 12e





Taoist Tai Chi Society





Thoughts?


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## mograph

Is it possible to sink and root (in a forward bow stance) if the head is ahead of the knee?


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## Xue Sheng

One thing I see here is that the punch from Wu style looks much more similar to the one form the TTCS than Yang.

As my sifu once said Wu is much better at attack than defense and this may be because the center is so far forward.


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## mograph

With regard to the Wu (2) punch, we can't be sure if the player was posing or was snapped while in motion. Given the apparent age of the shot, I think it was a static pose. I also think that in a number of cases, and maybe this one, the extended pose might be intended as a representation of the moment _after the emission of fa jing_, not as a stable stance.

If that were true, then it might also be possible that other players would copy this stance, irrespective of fa jing, believing it to be the Standard Form. 

It's a theory.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> With regard to the Wu (2) punch, we can't be sure if the player was posing or was snapped while in motion. Given the apparent age of the shot, I think it was a static pose. I also think that in a number of cases, and maybe this one, the extended pose might be intended as a representation of the moment _after the emission of fa jing_, not as a stable stance.
> 
> If that were true, then it might also be possible that other players would copy this stance, irrespective of fa jing, believing it to be the Standard Form.
> 
> It's a theory.


 
I am no expert on Wu I learned only one form and it was Northern Wu many years ago but there are a lot of VERY forward postures in the form that I learned. Also what I ahve seen of both Northern and Southern Wu there are a lot of front weighted stances as well.


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## mograph

Just to fill in some information gaps, here's one for the traditional folks: how is traditional Yang style taught in your school?

- How do its instructors treat middle-aged, stiff beginners?
- Are all students taught to do the postures the same way, or are different bodies given different paths? If so, is it expected that those paths will converge at some point? If so, at what point?
- Will all students be given the full extent of the head instructor's knowledge, or will some never receive it? If so, why?
- Are any students turned away? If so, why?

Thanks ...


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## East Winds

When I teach, I teach EVERY student the same way, irespective of age or physical ability. I teach the postures as I was taught by my teacher, without deviation and without adaptation. (I practise Tradtional Yang Family Taijiquan as transmitted by Yang Zhen Ji, the 2nd son of YCF). Some students are able to do it that way, some are not because of age, physical constraints or simply inability, but at least they are all shown the same way. I do not knowingly hold anything back. I demonstrate applications for each posture, but do not teach applications until students know the whole form and can execute it in a competent manner. (This can take up to 18 months or longer). Applications are also taught in separate classes, so that if students do not wish to pursue applications, they do not need to. However they do know what they are supposed to be doing with hands and feet etc. I never turn anyone away from classes, but advise them always to work within their own limitations. I teach strict adherence to Yang Cheng Fu's 10 essences and these essences are the foundation of all my teaching.

Hope this helps

Very best wishes


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## mograph

Thanks, EastWinds -- this is interesting. Would you say that the goal of a traditional Tai Chi instructor should be to transmit the form as he was taught without deviation or adaptation?

If that is true, I definitely see the merit in it, as it prevents degradation of the form. 

I think I now see a difference between the traditional way and Mr. Moy's way:  the traditional method of accurate transmission does not attempt to generate an effect in the student's body. (I assume) it transmits the form and offers feedback on the accuracy of the student's adoption of that form.

In Moy's case, the priority was not the transmission of a form, but to effect a change in the student's body using whatever means he had at his disposal.  The form was not important: a change in the student's body was the goal. (I'm not saying that traditional Yang style cannot change the body -- of course it can. Instead, I offer that Mr. Moy's practice attempted to change each student's body using the path that was appropriate for that student. If it took him away from the form, so be it.)

Assuming this to be true, it might verify the positions of both opposing camps on Mr. Moy: If you wanted a change in your body (that you could see sooner rather than later?), you would go to Mr. Moy, but if you wanted an accurate transmission of the Yang style form, you would go elsewhere. 

Maybe this leads us to an unsatisfying conclusion: that it makes no sense to compare Yang style form and TTCS form, since the goal of Mr. Moy was not to transmit the Yang style form without deviation, so of course it will deviate. 

However ... regarding that goal, Mr. Moy is no longer with us, and no longer able to tweak each student's form to best suit that student. I believe that what we see in the TTCS is a beginner form, a mild calisthenic designed to give mild health benefits to the most students while avoiding injury. It could be argued that this is what the students were taught until Mr. Moy could get around to each student and give him/her what he/she needed at that moment. 

But since Mr. Moy is not available, the current students depend on their instructors to have the same level of, if you will, "tweaking" ability that Mr. Moy had. It remains to be seen whether anyone left in the TTCS possesses that level of skill. Given that the organization is very large and discourages instructional initiative and innovation on the part of instructors, it may be true that the method of Mr. Moy that I stated earlier is not being practiced. I suppose this was to be expected: I've heard that Mr. Moy gave the TTCS about five years to survive after his death. An organization that depends so much on the skill of its leader cannot survive (for long) in its original form after the leader's death. This may explain why the TTCS is focusing more on the Taoist Cultivation Center (temple) and less on the Tai Chi instruction.

Bringing us back to the form discussion, my conclusion is that the TTCS form is a generalized beginner form, practiced by students waiting for a master who will never come. It's not Yang style, but it isn't trying to be. 

The question that remains may be: can it still be called "Tai Chi"? Maybe another thread may spring from this discussion: what elements of form, practice and instruction makes an exercise "Tai Chi"? Or does it really matter what something is called?

Thanks for reading.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Thanks, EastWinds -- this is interesting. Would you say that the goal of a traditional Tai Chi instructor should be to transmit the form as he was taught without deviation or adaptation?


 
I'm not EastWinds but IMO this is impossible. 

You have to maintain the basic principles however

As my sifu has said no two people have the same body so they cannot do the form exactly the same. His Sifu was Tung Ying Chieh and my Sifu was told by Tung Hu Ling (Tung Ying Chieh's oldest son) that his (my sifu's) form was very close to Tung Ying Chieh's, closer than Tung Hu Ling's was. But I would not question the ability or knowledge of Tung Hu Ling or my Sifu based on this. 

Yang Luchan's form of Yang style (which evolved from Chen style) was first changed by his son Yang Jainhou and then further changed by his grandson Yang Chengfu. And they get progressively taller form Luchan to Chengfu too. And if you look comparison pictures of Yang Chengfu and his student Tung Ying Chieh you again see differences and some of those are based on size of the practitioner. And again it you look at pictures of Yang Chengfu and compare them to Yang Jun you again see differences.


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> You have to maintain the basic principles however.



Would Wile's translation of the "Lost Tai Chi Classics" be a good place to study those principles? Or is there another place to find a list of the generally-agreed-upon principles?


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Would Wile's translation of the "Lost Tai Chi Classics" be a good place to study those principles? Or is there another place to find a list of the generally-agreed-upon principles?


 
For Yang Style (IMO)

The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan by Yang Chengfu

Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan by Fu Zhongwen

The Red Book by Tung Ying Chieh  however here the English translation is bad so it is much better in the Chinese. But you can get some pretty good sections of it here that are translated fairly well.

Yang Chengfus 10 Essentials
http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/ycf10pts.htm


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## pete

mograph, you've raised a very interesting and profound point. 

personally, i have no first-hand experience with the TTCS whatsoever, and without getting into 'qualitative' analysis, it does appear that they practice 'a' yang-style, albeit not 'the' yang-family-style... just as the cheng man ching is 'a' yang-style, and the so-called 24 is 'a' yang-style.

what is really a dichotomy here is the approach used by TTCS to restrict their instructors from searching out instruction in other styles or arts, or even exploring the martial aspects of the form... yet, attempting to transcend the style as it was taught to them and use creativity and innovation to individualize or 'tailor' the art to the individual. 

where does the innovation come from? its comparable to a medical student studying one text book throughout med-school, perhaps a very good textbook, but only one nonetheless... then, while in residency using innovation and creativity in the E/R!  

you can't have it both ways!  To study, practice, and train a single style (one textbook) you got to stick to the script, otherwise its finger-painting not art. If, however, you venture out, and seek teachings from other styles, arts, and teachers (ie, study from several text books), you may be able to draw innovation from proven methods in other styles.  It may no longer be the in the original 'tradition', but at least there is a basis for your methods.

Please note, this is in no way a qualitative statement nor opinion on either 'traditional' yang style vs TTCS, or an opinion on whether the single style vs several styles is better.  That is an individual decision, and would have many other variables determining what is correct for each person.

My point, based on mograph's post, is you can't have it both ways!

pete.


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## East Winds

Xue Sheng,

_*"As my sifu has said no two people have the same body so they cannot do the form exactly the same." 

*_Absolutely agree. However, everyone can do the 10 essences irrespective of body shape or size and if you do the form incorporating the 10 essences, then you are doing the form as transmitted by YCF. If you do the form and deviate from the essences, then you are no longer doing Yang style Taiji. Look at the "Wushu" forms of Yang and you will see an abandonment of the 10 essences. I you look CLOSELY at Yang Cheng-fu, Tung, Zhen Ji, Zhen Duo , or Yang Jun, yes they look different because of body shape, age and size. BUT THEY ARE ALL DOING THE 10 ESSENCES!!! the key to Yang style Taijiquan.

mograph,

You have raised some very pertinent points but I have to agree with Pete in his interpretation. Moy's original concept may well have been - "_*the priority was not the transmission of a form, but to effect a change in the student's body using whatever means he had at his disposal." *_but the priority of the TTCS eventually became the generation of cash above all else. Instructors are not allowed to deviate from the teachings of the TTCS and are actively prevented from studying other forms. The incorporation of the 10 essences into the Yang Family form is designed to "change the body" and promote good health. They also ensure that applications will work. Moy, by removing the essences, removed the health giving aspects of Yang style Taiji and replace them with some suspect "Taoist Internal Alchemy". The "stretching of the spine" so beloved of the TTCS causes the distortions in the body that you can see in ALL of the TTCS postures.

Pete,

I agree with your interpretation. Well stated. 

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> However, everyone can do the 10 essences irrespective of body shape or size and if you do the form incorporating the 10 essences, then you are doing the form as transmitted by YCF.


 
Which is what I meant when I said You have to maintain the basic principles, those being the 10 essences


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## mograph

All good points, Xue Sheng, East Winds and Pete. 

I'll study the 10 essences -- thanks for the links, Xue Sheng.

Pete, I agree with your interpretation, with an addition: In most TTCS classes that I have seen or heard about from other students, they are not trying to have it both ways, because they are not _capable_ of doing so. In fact, unless an instructor has had direct experience with a teacher who has the skill (and permission) to innovate and give individually-tailored instruction, he/she is not _aware_ such instruction ever existed. Any instruction given to a student is assumed to apply to the entire class. 

East Winds, I agree with your assessment of the TTCS. I can't say when it came to that state, but I like to believe that at the very beginning in the 1970's, Mr. Moy's goal was as I stated. It's hard to say how much of his ideas remain with the TTCS, and how those ideas relate to its current policy. We may never know ... but it doesn't really matter to those of us outside the TTCS, I suppose. 

Thanks, all.


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## mograph

Hmm. At least one of the 10 essentials was mentioned when I was with the TTCS. Here are the TTCS form principles, paraphrased, and to the best of my recollection:
- when in forward bow stance, align the straight back leg with the back, when viewed in profile
- step with feet straight, or at 45 degrees (when viewed from above)
- allow little or no space between the feet when viewed from the front ... the exception being those with a wide pelvis
- drop elbows and shoulders (that matches one of the Essentials)
- relax
- breathe naturally, with no specific in/out intention
- don't look down
- keep "tiger's mouth open": thumb and index finger at 90 degrees (approx.)
- after beginner level, rise and fall with the moves, "sitting" before stepping

Aside from that, the students are told how to do the choreography of the moves at an external level. If there's any internal instruction, it must be taught at the D'Arcy street location in Toronto, or taught by one of the "rebels" eventually tossed out of the TTCS. 

There are also exercises (apart from the set) that came from other arts. It's my understanding that Mr. Moy felt that students could change their bodies with these exercises alone, but they would only stay if they were taught a set of moves.  I'm speculating.


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