# Yet more discussion on Hapkido origins



## glad2bhere (Apr 5, 2005)

By Gawd, Stuart, I think you finally GOT IT!!!  Congratulations!!  artyon: 

"....However in the Daito Ryu book "Hidden roots of Aikido" you can see many of Hapkido tech & priciples. Also the book describes 3 levels of Aiki-Jutsu the lowest (if you will) being a jujutsu system, then Aiki-Jujutsu and finally Aiki-No-jujutsu. 

Maybe the type of HKD we train in the level of jujutsu with some Aiki-jujutsu.

I've not really seen any high level display of Aiki No Jujutsu from any Hapkido Masters. This realm of tech is closer to Aikido then HKD IMO....." 

Absolutely! Except that which we call "Hapkido" as taught by Ji and his tradition pretty much stops at the Yu-sool level. This would be the "ju-jutsu" or "yawara" level that most of us are familiar with. Now maybe Choi knew something of the next level from watching the higher performing people do their thing. He would have started to move beyond just using simple physics to make techniques work and started to use the opponents own neuro-muscular system against the opponents attack (or defense). This is where one would take Yu-sool and it would become "Hapki-yu-sool".  People who have not studied the "Hapkiyusool" level and find themselves thwarted in trying to make a technique work will use a "pre-emptive strike" (J. "atemi") or avail themselves of pressure points to facilitate the technique because the technique is limited by the Physics involved. 

The last level is Hapki-sool and is usually represented by the power of ones own personality or demeanor or deportment. It is as different from the other two levels as they are from each other. Whole separate topic. FWIW. 

Let me say one other bit about this. With the use of the Internet, books, videos --- in short the modern age, we are able to talk about these things when 100 years ago they would have been the most secret and sophisticated parts of these arts and training. Now we are almost casual about it. Times HAVE changed!!  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce   
d, Stuart, I think you finally GOT IT!! Congratulations!! 

"......


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## American HKD (Apr 5, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> By Gawd, Stuart, I think you finally GOT IT!!! Congratulations!! artyon:
> 
> "....However in the Daito Ryu book "Hidden roots of Aikido" you can see many of Hapkido tech & priciples. Also the book describes 3 levels of Aiki-Jutsu the lowest (if you will) being a jujutsu system, then Aiki-Jujutsu and finally Aiki-No-jujutsu.
> 
> ...


Thank You.

However I had it already just kept it to myself.

Ji might be in the Yu-Sool range so is GM Lim from the little I've seen so far and what others have told me.

Who is in the Aiki levels not many HKD people maybe only the AKD people and pure DRAJJ


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 5, 2005)

Bruce,

"Welcome to fantasyland" I like that(LOL). 

Stuart,

I would agree that Ji is at the Yu Sul level. Remember GM Chang recieved his 1st Dan from Ji. and later Bong soo-Han, and then Myong Jae-Nam. Which brings me to my next question. Do you guys think that Myong Jae-Nam started training in Aikido because he felt there was a lack of Aiki in what he learned from Ji, that waspassed down from Choi? and do you think that by using the Yu Sul that he knew, and mixed it with the Aiki, do you think it made it more or less complete?

Thoughts?


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## iron_ox (Apr 5, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Thank You.
> 
> However I had it already just kept it to myself.
> 
> ...



Hello Stuart,

I KNOW you don't believe this - but writing it to placate this silly notion of Hapkido being broken up into little groups of distinct only confuses those who might believe that other than beginning students might not be able to excecute techniques with "Ki".

As far as Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, well, I'll just say this, if application of technique done with Ki means that a full speed, full power attack can be dispatched with no noticable effort, well, I've FELT this - and my bruises don't lie about KI.  Simply, to break my attack with so little effort is well beyond basic ability.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 5, 2005)

".....Ji might be in the Yu-Sool range so is GM Lim from the little I've seen so far and what others have told me.

Who is in the Aiki levels not many HKD people maybe only the AKD people and pure DRAJJ...." 

Thats where the challenge comes in. Most people can sit very comfortably at the yu-sool level and spend their whole KMA career at that level. Not a thing wrong with it. There are a whole range of weapons and all sorts of material that can keep a person busy just at that level. 

As far as operating at a "hapki Yu Sool" level, well its certainly a smaller group-- a subset if you will-- in the Hapkido arts. It has to do with the manner in which one executes the technique and is not all that easy to explain. Remember?  We tried to do this once before; last year in October. I have only worked with GM Lim once so I can't say about his execution. Todd has worked with him a lot longer. I can say that Kim Yun Sang uses hapki yusool, in fact he almost never uses "yu sool" unless he's trying to make a point (ouch.) I will say that it is getting harder and harder to discern between the two levels as people attend training in one level and then attend a seminar at another level. The material gets blurred back and forth. In fact, there are people in Korea who come to Kim and learn ONLY "hapki yu sool" and take that back to their own schools. In Hyuk Suh is one of those that seems to get mixed into that blur but his tends to be more on the hapki-yu-sool side, I think. There are others who come to mind but I think its really an experiential thing. I didn't get it with Ji (though he could and did inflict pain). I did get it with Kim but is just very hard to characterize.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Apr 5, 2005)

Dear Michael: 

".....and do you think that by using the Yu Sul that he knew, and mixed it with the Aiki, do you think it made it more or less complete?...." 

Honestly, and I mean this with absolutely NO bad feelings in my heart towards you, but I think THIS is where we start to get into trouble. Let me use DRAJJ as an example so I can stay objective. 

Takeda Sokaku taught something. After about 1915 he started calling it Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. His art had a lot of stuff in it including weapons. I think if you had asked him if he taught a complete art he would have said "yes". 

Takeda Sokakus' Son, Tokimune took over the DRAJJ from his father and called his line Daito-ryu Aiki-Budo. He taught what his father taught including the weapons and passed it on to Kondo. If you asked him if he taught a complete art he would have said "yes". 

There are at least four OTHER mainlines of DRAJJ and some teach sword and some don't and some teach stick and some don't. Ask any of them if they teach a complete art they would say "yes". But start comparing one against another and the answers would be closer to "well "I" do but THEY don't". 

I could do the same with Aikido as it has a range from the Bu-Do approach of Mochizuki to the Cosmic Ki-Force of Tohei (and beyond). Ask any of these people if they teach a complete art and they would say "yes". 

I could even do the same thing with Karate. 

What we get into is one person saying "I" follow the "authentic Path" and everybody else is somehow less. 

So, when you ask if Myong Jae Nam wanted to make Hapkido more complete by "adding" more material I can't really say because I don't share what I think Myong Jae Nams' value system was. For me Hapkido is 6 gueps and six dan ranks. Its six categories of weapons and six categoires of adjunctive material. I teach what I was taught and my teacher taught me what he was taught. I would look at what I do and say its "complete". Someone else would look at it and call it ridiculous. Life goes on. FWIW. 

BTW: IMVVHO THIS WAS/IS the sort of stuff we need to be discussing in the Hapkido arts and on a regular basis. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 5, 2005)

Bruce,


Isee what your saying. However I did not mean for the question to be did it make Hapkido more complete. I really believe alot of people's Hapkido is complete. What I was refering to was the discussion of Ai Ki, and Ki Ai. We were talking about Choi teaching more of the direct techniques, "yawara" from which we all know. And he taught this to Ji. But in essence he might not have taught, or Ji did not learn the Ai Ki aspects of the art. So my question was this. If Ji learned the Ki Ai, or more direct techniques, and he taught those to Myong. But Myong did not learn the Ai Ki aspects. So maybe Myong looked to Aikido for that Aiki Influence. Thoughts?


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## glad2bhere (Apr 5, 2005)

OOoooopppssss--- My bad. :mp5:  :idunno: 

Sorry about that! Went completely off in the wrong direction!! 

If you are going to take THAT position then I have to give a very firm and positive "I dunno". 

For instance, when I went to Okamoto's seminar a couple of years back we spend the entire weekend doing "Ki" material. 8 hours on Saturday and 8 hours on Sunday. Then, as I was getting ready to leave the word went out among the "members" of the hosting school that Okamoto would be doing "combat" techniques (they used a different word) but only for the members and not for us guests. In modern parlance I considered this "bogus". It was bad enough that one should so clearly define between the two side, but to willfully delineate such that one only saw one-side of the coin seemed a bit shady, if you know what I mean. Personally I think anyone can take a yawara technique and interpret as "aiki", and I bet most "aiki" techniques have their "yawara" counterpart. Like the difference in using an M-16 for a fire-fight or target practice. Weapon is the same but the intention is different. No, I think in Myong Jae Nam's situation he was more interested in connecting with the Aikido people with an eye towards being the "Korean Ueyshiba". I don't think it had anything to do with the material.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Apr 5, 2005)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello Stuart,
> 
> I KNOW you don't believe this - but writing it to placate this silly notion of Hapkido being broken up into little groups of distinct only confuses those who might believe that other than beginning students might not be able to excecute techniques with "Ki".
> 
> As far as Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, well, I'll just say this, if application of technique done with Ki means that a full speed, full power attack can be dispatched with no noticable effort, well, I've FELT this - and my bruises don't lie about KI. Simply, to break my attack with so little effort is well beyond basic ability.


Dear Kevin

I think we're talking about 2 seperate issues. 

I'm very happy with the HKD skills I learned from Ji, Master Son, etc.

But I believe the HKD in fact may be simply a form of JJ passed on by Choi. ( a quite fomidable sytle may I add) I spent over 25 years doing it. Ji said Choi called it Yawara so did Lim in TKD times. I think they all used the name Hap Ki but that would mean Ai Ki and the Hapkido Ilearned is not of the Ai-Ki flavor as compared to Aikido.

The question remains what is the Aiki-Jujutsu relation to HKD. In TKD times Lim stated the party line that Choi learned from Takeda. 

Lets say I buy into that and "I do", my only unanswered question would be, What form of DRAJJ did Choi learn????????????? 

1. The plain JJ style??????
2. The Aiki style?????
3. Aiki No style????

Mainly #1 with some #2 or all of the above??????????

I will speculate from the techniques we have in HKD that the answer is door #1 maybe some #2, I doubt #3 at all. 

No one will ever know for sure!


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## American HKD (Apr 5, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Bruce,
> 
> "Welcome to fantasyland" I like that(LOL).
> 
> ...


Myung Ja Nam openly mixed AKD with HKD. It's well known Myung favored soft flowing Aiki movements. I will say that was his personal perferance.

He definately moved towards AKD and away from Choi/Ji's style of techniques.

So in fact did Master Chang or Jang, I believe he's your head Master?


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 5, 2005)

But I believe the HKD in fact may be simply a form of JJ passed on by Choi. ( a quite fomidable sytle may I add) I spent over 25 years doing it. Ji said Choi called it Yawara so did Lim in TKD times.

GM Lim never said anything about DJN Choi calling Hapkido Yawara.  He called it Hapki Yu Sool then Hapkido.


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 5, 2005)

Doju Nim Choi was also known for his high skill level in Kihap Sool.  I was told by a reliable source that DJN Choi could knock a man to the ground with a Kihap.  

Hapki & Kihap are two sides of the same coin.  Interesting stuff.

Take care


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## American HKD (Apr 5, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> But I believe the HKD in fact may be simply a form of JJ passed on by Choi. ( a quite fomidable sytle may I add) I spent over 25 years doing it. Ji said Choi called it Yawara so did Lim in TKD times.
> 
> GM Lim never said anything about DJN Choi calling Hapkido Yawara. He called it Hapki Yu Sool then Hapkido.


I must be seeing thing, I thought I read Yawara??

Ji said Choi called it "Yawara" of course that was maybe 15-18 years before GM Lim trained with Choi.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 5, 2005)

I think we might be treading perilously close to "hero-worship" again. 

DRAJJ people often talk about how their patriarch (whichever tradition you might be talking about) could blah blah blah blah. And some other person might say "well GM GHJK could do-dah do-dah-do-dah". I remember some pretty weird stuff being written about both Takeda and Ueyshiba quite a while ago including walking through walls and reading peoples' minds. Maybe they could and maybe they couldn't. I wasn't there. What I DO know is the superlative door swings both ways. 

Lets say a person is able to take a full-power, all-out attack and effortlessly turn that attack and dominate the situation. Lets say he spends 40+ years learning the skills to do that. Thats four decades by my count. What exactly is the conclusion to be drawn here? That if we spend 40 years we might be able to approximate those skills? That if I start at the age of 17, in forty years I will have accomplished skills par excellance just in time to watch those skills diminish with age? And what if an all-out attack never comes? What do I do--- go out and look for an opportunity to see if this stuff really works? 

The fact is that the Hapkido arts are just that--- arts. You spend your whole life looking to master a skill set you are going to bust your hump not to use. You will train in weapons that have been useless on a battlefield for almost 400 years. Dressing Yong Sul Choi or any of his students up in layers of adjectives is not going to change the fact that they are just human beings who worked hard at something then passed the torch to the next generation. Why try and make more of it than it is? FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 5, 2005)

Well said :asian:


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 6, 2005)

_I think we might be treading perilously close to "hero-worship" again. _ 

This type of ability is not well understood by most in the western Martial Art culture.  It is however well known in Aisia that this type of skill CAN be developed with the right training.  It is not some mystical ability but proper hard focused training.  

Just because you do not understand something does not mean that it does not exist!!!! :asian: 

Take care


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## glad2bhere (Apr 6, 2005)

Contrary to how you may interpret the point, I understand the concept very well, I just think it is disingenuous to represent it in the fashion that it has been. 

Certainly hardwork properly applied will produce good results. That is not my point. 

My point was that it is no good service to represent a personality to the public in an inflated manner. For instance, if someone is said to have "trained" with a personality for 20 years it is reasonable for the audiance to conclude daily periods of significant effort. 365 periods of two-hour training for 20 years would certainly be laudable. Fact is that most people actually have what might be better termed a "20 year relationship" with someone. In such a case the training might be infrequent, or regular at a greater interval such as once a week or even once a month, perhaps occasional intensives followed by extended periods of relative little interaction. Saying that a person "trained with GM So&So" is a cosmetic statement that can cover a range of imperfections. This would be not unlike a person such as yourself stating that you are going to Korea "to train" and spending a significant portion of your time in inactivity while others are on the mat. Something like that. 

In like manner, it might also be inaccurate to say that a person who studied disparate arts, over a 20 year period, and then fuses those arts together in a single entity cannot be said to have studied that fused result for "20 years". The truth is that he studied one aspect and then another aspect for realtively shorter periods. The claim that GM Lim, for instance studied "Guhapdo" for "40 years" is misleading. No mention is made of him studying Eishin Ryu in Japan and bringing that material back to Korea and creating his own aspect of sword which is then represented as "Korean". These kinds of carefully groomed statements tend to represent a personality in an inauthentic manner and do a disservice to people who might be seeking a role model after whom to pattern their own efforts. 

Some time ago I mentioned that I thought that your marketing efforts were inappropriate and you suggested that the fault lay with me. I suggest my examples are sound representations of liberties that you take in representing your art and GM Lim. In similar fashion Kevins' signature block that characterizes "authentic Hapkido" and your own comment on AJ Net regarding "original history" are unnecessary adjectives which seem to suggest that what other people proffer is somehow "non-authentic" or "un-original". And since neither statement identifies who you are referencing the natural Human need for closure results in concluding a dichotomy of your "authenticity" and "originality" against the failings of the rest of the World. I believe that this is made worse by the fact that you know you are representing things in this fashion, understand your result and choose to continue the charade. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 6, 2005)

Stuart,

 So in fact did Master Chang or Jang, I believe he's your head Master?

Actually, I would not say that at all. We have very little Aikido influence at all. Infact I would say if anything Aikijutsu. If I remember correctly GM Chang said the reason he broke away from Myung Jae-Nam, is that his techniques started to become to much like Aikido. GM Chang teaches pure Hapkido that he learned from Ji, Han, and Myung.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 6, 2005)

Dear Michael: 

I am still having trouble finding information about GM Chang. Am I using the right spelling?  Is it Chang or Jang? I have looked for him under Myong, Myung and Ji and not had any success. Is this the same person connected with Fabians' up-coming seminar? Is this the person who is connected with WOMAF and Garrison up in the Northwest? Thoughts?  Comments?  Help? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Apr 6, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Stuart,
> 
> So in fact did Master Chang or Jang, I believe he's your head Master?
> 
> Actually, I would not say that at all. We have very little Aikido influence at all. Infact I would say if anything Aikijutsu. If I remember correctly GM Chang said the reason he broke away from Myung Jae-Nam, is that his techniques started to become to much like Aikido. GM Chang teaches pure Hapkido that he learned from Ji, Han, and Myung.


Dear Mike,

Please explain Aikijutsu influence on your style of HKD.

That seems to be an oxymoron being that they're supposed to be the same Art ? ? ?

Myung Jae Nam clearly and openly associated with Aikido, GM Jang being student of Myung much longer than Ji would have much more AKD influence than anyone from Ji's lineage only. 

That's why I would assume your style is what it is.


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 6, 2005)

Bruce,

It is spelled Chang, but is pronounced Jang. What information are you looking for? Maybe I could direct you in the right direction. If your talking about information on his lineage. I don't know of any way of getting that information to you. You would have to contact GM Chang, or GM Ji and ask them. But NO we do not have any affiliation with Fabian's group, or the WOMAF. GM Chang is not affiliated with anyone for that matter. He started his own IHF in the 70's and has been there since. Let me know what your looking for. Thanks.


Stuart,

The reason I say Aikijutsu is for two reasons.

1: I am a firm believer in that what Choi taught Ji, was pure Yawara, or jutsu but did not, or Ji did not learn that much of Aiki aspects. The reason I say that we are probably closer to Aikijutsu, Aikijujutsu is the technical execution of technique. I can honestly say that I have not seen any Aikido group yet that uses what we refer to as more of the (military) technique. Aikido in essence is studied to execute technique without causing severe damage. What GM Chang teaches is definetely not in that way. I know this may not sound right, Please it is hard to explain by words. So please don't take what I have said to far out of context. We have had people from different groups come to the school. And while we were exchanging technique, just simple things as hand placement, would show them the difference in technique, if you know what I'm talking about.

p.s. If you click on the hapkiyoosool link by my signature.
scroll down the main page, and click on Scott Jame's school
in Utah. Go to the picture gallery. There are some old pictures of GM Chang and the 
HQ. You can take a look at them there pretty cool. A little hard to see
even when you make them bigger, but still interesting.


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 6, 2005)

_I believe that this is made worse by the fact that you know you are representing things in this fashion, understand your result and choose to continue the charade. _ 

Read the May issue of Taekwondo Times!  GM Lim has never lied or misrepresented what he does or teaches.  His art of Chung Suk Guhapdo is a Korean art with influences from Japan, nothing more, nothing less.

I have spent a good deal of time with GM lim and have never found him to be the type to hype things up or be dishonest about anything, not his style.

The terms authentic, orthodox, genuine exct. are ways to describe what Jungki Mudo are.  GM Lim trained with Doju Nim Choi for a long time and was one of a few that were promoted to 9th Dan by the Founder so the term orthodox is refering to what DJN Choi taught GM Lim.

We all know that there are many different versions of Hapkido, none are wrong per say just not the whole art DJN Choi taught, plain & simple.


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 6, 2005)

I did want to touch base on a comment that was made about weather or not DJN Choi taught the three principles of Hapkido.

There is a picture with the caligraphy "Wha, Won Yu" on the wall in GM Lim's dojang that was given to GM Lim by DJN Choi when he opened the Jungki Kwan in 1974. :asian: 

Draw your own conclusion.


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## American HKD (Apr 6, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Bruce,
> 
> It is spelled Chang, but is pronounced Jang. What information are you looking for? Maybe I could direct you in the right direction. If your talking about information on his lineage. I don't know of any way of getting that information to you. You would have to contact GM Chang, or GM Ji and ask them. But NO we do not have any affiliation with Fabian's group, or the WOMAF. GM Chang is not affiliated with anyone for that matter. He started his own IHF in the 70's and has been there since. Let me know what your looking for. Thanks.
> 
> ...


Dear Mike 

I see where your comming from.


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 6, 2005)

Todd Miller,


No disrespect, but the three principles you speek of were in existence way before 1974. Infact those 3 principles were used by the Kidohae in the 60's, and probably before then aswell.


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## American HKD (Apr 6, 2005)

Greetings

Dear Todd 

Where do think a guy like Mstr. Rim fits in, he only trained with Choi and is a 6th or 7th Dan directly from Choi.

Do you have any knowledge of Rim techniques being the same as GM Lim ?


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 6, 2005)

Stuart,


Do you talk with GM Ji on a regular basis? If so if you would not mind asking him about GM Chang Young-Shil it would be great. I myself was wondering exactly what year he trained under Ji. Plus it might help Bruce out with his info. Thanks.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 6, 2005)

".....Read the May issue of Taekwondo Times! GM Lim has never lied or misrepresented what he does or teaches. His art of Chung Suk Guhapdo is a Korean art with influences from Japan, nothing more, nothing less.

I have spent a good deal of time with GM lim and have never found him to be the type to hype things up or be dishonest about anything, not his style......" 

Pardon me, Todd, but you just did it again! I wrote,
 "I believe that this is made worse by the fact that you know you are representing things in this fashion, understand your result and choose to continue the charade." I didn't say anything about GM Lim misrepresenting. I didn't say anything about GM Lim "lying". These are _your_ words that you are using to "spin" what I am saying even before you respond.  

 Furthermore, I wrote 
"The claim that GM Lim, for instance studied "Guhapdo" for "40 years" is misleading. No mention is made of him studying Eishin Ryu in Japan and bringing that material back to Korea and creating his own aspect of sword which is then represented as "Korean". These kinds of carefully groomed statements tend to represent a personality in an inauthentic manner and do a disservice to people who might be seeking a role model after whom to pattern their own efforts." 

I am addressing _your _ representation of things. You know what is accurate and you are choosing not to disclose the information accurately. 

Now, unless you can demonstate or substantiate the existence of "Guhapdo" as a Korean art rather than a construction by GM Lim in which he has combined Eishin Ryu and Kendoesque aspects of Kumdo I suggest to you help the readership here avoid confusion. Apparently GM Lim is very accomplished in Japanese swordsmanship and that is commendable. Nor do I see a problem teaching Japanese traditions utilizing Korean terms. All I am saying is that I think there needs to be some greater candor, thats all. The art of batto-jutsu is Japanese in organization, application and intent. It is not Korean. And if you like, we can have American members of the Eishin Ryu community observe your hyung to determine to what extent they are Japanese. Would this be more fair? 

For my part, there is already much too much obfuscation regarding the Hapkido arts, with not a few Japanese entities deriding Korean traditions as nothing more than poorly executed Japanese arts. I don't think we need to add to this. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 6, 2005)

"The claim that GM Lim, for instance studied "Guhapdo" for "40 years" is misleading.

The Taekwondo Times article is not from me.  I did the interview with GM Lim.

Where do you get that he studied Guhapdo for 40 years?  He has been studying Mudo for over 40 years but not Guhapdo!

I have not tried to misrepresent anything to anyone.  What GM Lim does and teaches stands on its own and does not need hype!


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 6, 2005)

_Dear Todd 

Where do think a guy like Mstr. Rim fits in, he only trained with Choi and is a 6th or 7th Dan directly from Choi.

Do you have any knowledge of Rim techniques being the same as GM Lim ?_

I do not know Master Rim and have never seen his technique.  I have herd that Joe Shayas tapes are different from what the Jungki Kwan does though.


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 6, 2005)

_Todd Miller,


No disrespect, but the three principles you speek of were in existence way before 1974. Infact those 3 principles were used by the Kidohae in the 60's, and probably before then aswell._

Thank you for making my point.  DJN Choi always taught the three principles.  I just mentioned that why would he give GM Lim a caligraphy of Wha Won Yu if they did not have a major significance in Hapkido?

The caligraphy I am talking about was displayed in DJN Choi's dojang before he gave it to GM Lim.


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## Jumper53 (Apr 6, 2005)

Interesting thread guys. 

I think it is a shame that this thread is hidden behind an opening question from a beginner. It should be in a thread labeled something like "Has HKD advanced since the Founder?" to better describe the contents. The discussion has been great but it would be good to draw some opinions from others who have had exposure to the 1st Generation HKD Masters.

I also appreciate when the conversation gets a little heated, you are able to pull it back to a rational discussion. Good communication!

None of us can truly say what happened 50 years ago, who is telling the truth, who was influenced by who. Unfortunately most of the people we need to ask are dead, and did not write autobiographies. Well not Biographies that contain 100% truth anyway, since most of them seemed to be arguing about their lineage and principals of their art just like we are today. 

Through discussion in this international forum, maybe we can come a little closer to the truth. As much as the past matters anyway. We should also look to the present and future to not repeat some of the mistakes (mostly ego clashes) of the past Masters. HKD is a great art, no matter which variance of it you teach. 

Think about this, in 20 years some of you will be the Head Masters of HKD. And in 50 years someone will be arguing about whether their teacher has a direct lineage to you and how much you were influenced by the Brazilian Ground Fighting arts or Pilipino Knife Fighting.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 6, 2005)

Dear Jumper: 

"....None of us can truly say what happened 50 years ago, who is telling the truth, who was influenced by who. Unfortunately most of the people we need to ask are dead, and did not write autobiographies. Well not Biographies that contain 100% truth anyway, since most of them seemed to be arguing about their lineage and principals of their art just like we are today. ..." 

_*And this is where we have a chance to do something different that those folks in the previous generation screwed-up on.*_

 As the torch gets passed to us we can talk about what we have in common, how things are the same, maybe investigate various aspects of the Hapkido arts such as the "ai-ki" ("hapki") versus the "ki-ai ("yu sool") principles.  In another way, on another thread there was much talk about ground techniques and the thought seemed to be that we needed to bring BJJ into Hapkido. I pointed out that Hapkido already has ground techniques and we need to learn that material first and maybe investigate BJJ with the Hapkido ground material as a basis. Altogether different take. The same goes for the sword material. people are ready to run off to Japan and learn Japanese traditions and then bring it back and teach it as a Korean tradition when there is plenty of Korean material to learn before importing anything. 

Now the people who have gone before us have given us a network--- a matrix, if you will--- upon which to expand our awareness. We need to learn the material that has gone before us and then make our contributions and pass it to the next generation who will make theirs. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Jumper53 (Apr 6, 2005)

My instructor does not verbalise the advanced principals of HKD very much. He just does techniques over and over waiting for us to see the principals, when we finally understand we get a nod with a grunt of approval, then he moves on. 

I am not sure if it is just his teaching style or the complexities of translating from Korean to English, but he seems to dislike the times he has to use words to teach the black belts. 

Reading this thread and others about the principals of HKD and AKD has helped me by putting some words to the lessons I have learned. Since I am a baby in this thread (only 3rd degree, yeesh this is a high ranking thread) I was wondering how some of you learned about the concepts of Hapki, Yul Sul, (aiki, kiai, Jutsu) etc. etc.

Did your Masters talk to you about these principals from the beginning or did he wait till you were high belt? Or was the teaching more by feel instead of words leaving you researching to find your own discriptions and names for the principals like I am now?

And I really do not care which of you has the shortest, most uncorrupted lineage to DJN Choi, so I would not mind reading an answer from each of you.
:asian:


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## American HKD (Apr 7, 2005)

Jumper53 said:
			
		

> My instructor does not verbalise the advanced principals of HKD very much. He just does techniques over and over waiting for us to see the principals, when we finally understand we get a nod with a grunt of approval, then he moves on.
> 
> I am not sure if it is just his teaching style or the complexities of translating from Korean to English, but he seems to dislike the times he has to use words to teach the black belts.
> 
> ...


Welcome aboard!

Two things you mentioned.

1. We all have been communicating with each other here for quite a while, yes it can get hot from time to time but I think we all learned to overlook each others implied insults (most of the time!) and keep moving.

2. Anyway my 1st teacher sounds like yours, he taught by example not language which was Ok for someone who is a good follower and has an eye for detail. 

At some point I needed more and had to find it on my own, from other sourses, Masters who could cross the lanuage barrier etc.

My advice is look everywhere, read, ask, don't be afraid to cross referance from other Arts, and talk to others you'll find the many answers along the way.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 7, 2005)

I have a bit of an advantage since my teacher has been pretty pro-active in publishing material. However, if I took his published material out of the equation I would have to say that he introduced the Principles the same way that you both have described. In time, and over a range of techniques we would be encouraged to note certain common characterisitcs that all the material shared. This wasn't lectured as much as a kind of "after-thought". Every so often there might be a comment like "....and this is the same as what we saw in...." or "....and here is that principle again, but more in THIS light...". For my part we modern practitioners have a kind of luxury of being able to delve deeply into the art to understand these finer bits. Practitioners of old would have just bounced around in training and may or may not have ever had a chance to identify these principles at work. GM Myung encourages his students to dig into the art "behind" the activity, and the culture behind the traditions. I have always gotten the impression that he considered this an actual duty of the Hapkido practitioner. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Apr 7, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> p.s. If you click on the hapkiyoosool link by my signature.
> scroll down the main page, and click on Scott Jame's school
> in Utah. Go to the picture gallery. There are some old pictures of GM Chang and the
> HQ. You can take a look at them there pretty cool. A little hard to see
> even when you make them bigger, but still interesting.




Hello all,

Yes, it is interesting to look at the old pictures.  In the background, on the wall, one can see a single photograph, that of the Founder of Aikido - so Stuart, I think your supposition about Aikido here was correct.


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 7, 2005)

Mr.Soger,

Just because GM Chang as a picture of Ueyshiba doesen't mean anything. He has pictures of alot of different pictures at the HQ. One's that are not seen in that gallery. Like GM Ji, Bong Soo-Han, Myung Jae-Nam which is there in that gallery. So it means absollutely nothing. In the school that I share with a friend from WHF, he has pictures of Takeda, Takeda's father etc. But obviously we have no affiliation with the DRAJJ in Japan. so what's your point?


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## iron_ox (Apr 7, 2005)

Merchant,

You brought up the issue of looking at the pictures - not a single picture on the wall of Dojunim Choi (except the one more modern picture of the dojang now in Korea) - just Aikido's Founder - speaks volumes to the fact that your base is Aikido.  These are the photos you directed the world to look at - of training in Korea - were you trying to be specific and say "look only at the particular pictures that do not demonstrate that the base of what we teach is Aikido?"

Ummm, but photos in Korea have much more significance than they do here.  You may share space with someone of another style -  but since it has been well established that your orgainzation is rooted in Aikido, it only stands to reason that such photos would be prominent at those dojang in Korea.    

I see a pattern in your posts.  You claim everyone misinterprets what you say.  Maybe you ought to think out what you type a little before hand so as to be clearer in your own mind.  Better yet, type the stuff in Word, then use a spell check, might help too.

I will not ask you again to spell my name correctly.


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 7, 2005)

EXCUSE ME!

Mr. SOGOR,

oops, did I spell it correctly this time? What do you mean You will not ask me to spell your name correctly? sounds to me like someonehas an attitude problem.

There are two pictures of Choi Young-Sul, one of the portrait. And the other one being the news paper article on Choi's passing. Or did your eyes skip past that one?


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## shesulsa (Apr 7, 2005)

*Moderator Note. 
  Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

  -Georgia Ketchmark
  -SR Moderator-*


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## iron_ox (Apr 7, 2005)

Merchant,

  You consistantly misspell my name.  Stop trying to be so dramatic.  Just be courteous and at least spell others names correctly.

Again, also read things you write.  I never said that the whole random selection did not contain a single piece of Dojunim Choi memorabilia - even the column from TaeKwonDo Times announcing Dojuinm Choi's passing is in that bunch.  YOU said look at the older training pictures - where Aikido's Founder is the only one on the wall.


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 7, 2005)

reply,

Truth of the matter is that whenever you have replied to any of my post on this forum, or Budoseek, you have always some issue with what I say, or my federation/school. If I do not come off as being respectful to you, well that's because in the past you have shown me no reason to do so. Respect must be given, in order for it to be earned correct? The entire time I have been a member on this forum or others I have never bashed anyone's style, or say that they do something which they don't. I respect everyone's teaching whatever it may be. The only person that I have ever writenly bashed was a certain person from Florida, which we are all familiar with. But in his case he deserved it.

Back to the topic- These are not the only pictures in the HQ in Korea. There are actually alot of pictures of Choi Young-Sul, they are just not part of the gallery on Mr. Jame's website. The problem I am having with you and certain others is this. 

1: (not trying to sound like a victim, but) It does infact seem when someone addresses what I say, it always comes back with attitude, bashing, and critizism.
2: people(including yourself) that want to continuously say that we teach something we do not. I have repeatedly stated GM Chang's lineage. If all of his masters were Hapkido masters, then why do you say our basis is Aikido?

I understand Myung Jae-Nam is an exception, but he himself did not teach pure Aikido. He taught a mix of Hapkido/Aikido. so even his basis is not Aikido, it's Hapkido. So to draw that conclusion is simply incorrect. Lastly ask people who have trained with us if you like. Ask Master D'Aloia if he thinks we do Aikido. He has shared a few techniques with us. Or ask Paul B , he was at the Arnold Classic, and saw Master Allen's techniques. I garantee neither one of them would say we teach Aikido. There is a new student at Master Allen's school in Florida, who studied at Steven Seagal's school. He joined Master Allen because he loved the techniques compared to what he had learned. I garantee he would also say we do not do Aikido. So I don't know what's left that I must do to prove to you that we do not teach Aikido. I have posted information in the past to come to one of our seminars. No one from any of the boards I posted the information on shows up. So, if people won't even come to see, and feel then I guess they will never know, and will just have to keep conjuring what they want up in their minds.


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## American HKD (Apr 7, 2005)

Greetings

No fightings some of were already banned here for a week a few months ago.

Anyway not to pick on Mike at all, I've never seen a Traditional HKD Dojang
with a picture of Ueyesba, not to say it doesn't exist.

Your teachers lineage suggests a very strong AKD connection that's a fact, Hapkido/Aikido mix is where I believe you suggest an Aikijujutsu flavor. We are spectulating based on lineage and what you have said.

Moreover that's no put down on your school or your teacher in anyway, it just is what it is.


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 7, 2005)

Stuart,

I agree with what your saying. I have already openly said that we do have SOME Aikido aspects. Mainly some redirections, and some pinning. But these other people(not you) are saying that our whole basis, and art is Aikido which it is not. See where I'm comming from?


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## glad2bhere (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, I have to admit, per the title of this thread, what I am reading in the last several posts really DOES seem to be the "Basics of Hapkido". I have no doubt that the same sort of thing went on among Lee, Kim, Ji, Suh and Oh years ago and probably got us to where our last generation wound up. Nor do I suspect that whenever the identified "bad guy" is selected that there might ever be answer that might be made to challenges against him that would be ruled "acceptable". 

Not so very long ago we had a flurry of activity on DD because the name "Hackworth" came up. Before that there was a flurry about a group out of Canada. Before that there was a flurry about a group in Europe (France? England?) And before that it was Hackworth and members of the KHF. Before that it was Pelligrini. 

Now I have introduced some thoughts and views and I am lucky to get a handful of responses. Seems any time technical questions come up there are a few exchanges and then an invitation. But cast aspersions and everybody with a belly-button has an opinion, and you are up to your tail in posts.  When I bump this behavior up against what I see over on AIKIDO JOURNAL Net or E-BUDO Net our exchanges seem down-right puerile. Makes it sorta hard to get up any farther into the building when we keep walking in the same circles down in the lobby, if you get my meaning. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Apr 7, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Stuart,
> 
> I agree with what your saying. I have already openly said that we do have SOME Aikido aspects. Mainly some redirections, and some pinning. But these other people(not you) are saying that our whole basis, and art is Aikido which it is not. See where I'm comming from?


I see your point clearly.

For the record how much do you think AKD influenced your style of HKD and in what way?


----------



## American HKD (Apr 7, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Well, I have to admit, per the title of this thread, what I am reading in the last several posts really DOES seem to be the "Basics of Hapkido". I have no doubt that the same sort of thing went on among Lee, Kim, Ji, Suh and Oh years ago and probably got us to where our last generation wound up. Nor do I suspect that whenever the identified "bad guy" is selected that there might ever be answer that might be made to challenges against him that would be ruled "acceptable".
> 
> Not so very long ago we had a flurry of activity on DD because the name "Hackworth" came up. Before that there was a flurry about a group out of Canada. Before that there was a flurry about a group in Europe (France? England?) And before that it was Hackworth and members of the KHF. Before that it was Pelligrini.
> 
> ...


Greetings

I know what you mean about the problem of discussing techniques.

I think it's very hard or impossible to explain technical aspects of HKD in this forum or any written forum. HKD techs. are very intricate, it's not like describing a lunge punch or front kick.

I believe that's why technical threads are hard to due, the chances of getting your point across is slim to none.


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 7, 2005)

Stuart,

For the record how much do you think AKD influenced your style of HKD and in what way?

I would have to say there is not too much Aikido in our Hapkido. I think how it hased influence the Hapkido, would simply be more Aiki. I have said before that what Ji learned from Choi was more along the lines of pure jutsu (yawara) but lacked aiki. I think that by GM Chang learning from Myung Jae-Nam it gave his style more aiki, or flow to the techniques. I have studied with a few people from Sin Moo, mainly red belts, or 1st Dan's. I will admit that the style is very good, but again I did not feel as much aiki as I do with our style. For instance- It seem with a redirection into a Kote Gaeshi (sorry for Japanese terminology) from what I have seen from alot of Hapkido schools is that instead of using a full circular spin from your feet to redirect, they would use more of like a half circle. If you can picture what I'm saying? Both ways are effective, but I think that not using the full circle it is using less of the aiki potential, and using more jutsu. This is just a small example but I hope it helps with your question.


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## American HKD (Apr 7, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Stuart,
> 
> For the record how much do you think AKD influenced your style of HKD and in what way?
> 
> I would have to say there is not too much Aikido in our Hapkido. I think how it hased influence the Hapkido, would simply be more Aiki. I have said before that what Ji learned from Choi was more along the lines of pure jutsu (yawara) but lacked aiki. I think that by GM Chang learning from Myung Jae-Nam it gave his style more aiki, or flow to the techniques. I have studied with a few people from Sin Moo, mainly red belts, or 1st Dan's. I will admit that the style is very good, but again I did not feel as much aiki as I do with our style. For instance- It seem with a redirection into a Kote Gaeshi (sorry for Japanese terminology) from what I have seen from alot of Hapkido schools is that instead of using a full circular spin from your feet to redirect, they would use more of like a half circle. If you can picture what I'm saying? Both ways are effective, but I think that not using the full circle it is using less of the aiki potential, and using more jutsu. This is just a small example but I hope it helps with your question.


Dear Mike,

The Sin Moo style is a very strong and direct HKD style less circular than other HKD systems.

We use the whole body to amplify the techs making them very powerful, we are still non resistance and use circles but in many cases they are small and direct circles compared to large flowing circles as in AKD or some HKD styles.

Sin Moo is a very combat oriented style, Master Ji calls the system for killing not play or sparring.


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## howard (Apr 7, 2005)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> *Chicagoland's ONLY AUTHENTIC HAPKIDO DOJANG*


 Mr Sogor, could you please explain to us exactly what this means?


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 7, 2005)

Stuart,

You said exactly what I was trying to say. Sin Moo is a very strong style, I definetely agree. And as you said it is less circular than some styles, which from what I've seen and felt. But I just want to clarify one thing. The term that I use full circle is totally different than large circle. I think this where we differ from Aikido. When I say full circle I just mean a complete 180 degree spin, to redirect the attack. Compared to a 60 degree or so spin, from other styles(inculding Sin Moo) from what I have seen. But just because it is a full 180 spin, does not mean it is large. Infact it is a very tight, intricate spin, to a fast execution of a technique. This is why I say we are closer to Aikijutsu, or Aikijujutsu. So basically the difference is in large circular movement, compared to what we do as a tight, fast circle. Hope that helps.


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 7, 2005)

We all seem to be Authentic, but to everybody else


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## Paul B (Apr 7, 2005)

Aww...forget it. :lol:


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## iron_ox (Apr 7, 2005)

howard said:
			
		

> Mr Sogor, could you please explain to us exactly what this means?



What does it say?


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## American HKD (Apr 7, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Stuart,
> 
> You said exactly what I was trying to say. Sin Moo is a very strong style, I definetely agree. And as you said it is less circular than some styles, which from what I've seen and felt. But I just want to clarify one thing. The term that I use full circle is totally different than large circle. I think this where we differ from Aikido. When I say full circle I just mean a complete 180 degree spin, to redirect the attack. Compared to a 60 degree or so spin, from other styles(inculding Sin Moo) from what I have seen. But just because it is a full 180 spin, does not mean it is large. Infact it is a very tight, intricate spin, to a fast execution of a technique. This is why I say we are closer to Aikijutsu, or Aikijujutsu. So basically the difference is in large circular movement, compared to what we do as a tight, fast circle. Hope that helps.


Understood


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## howard (Apr 8, 2005)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> What does it say?


That's what I'm asking you... so you are saying that there is no other "authentic" hapkido school in the Chicago metropolitan area?

What is your definition of "authentic" in this context?


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## American HKD (Apr 8, 2005)

Greetings,

Dear Howard,

I think Kevin means a undiluted lineage traced directly to Choi Yong Sul.

However the truth is, no matter who claims what there's no way to substanciate that it is the exact unaltered version. 

The only reason I say that is because each person is an individual and no two people can do anything exactly the same. Some variations are likey to accur no matter what. 

In Ji Han Jae lineage there are many variations allsaying they teach "original Hapkido" yet no two are a exactly alike!

People naturally change or better yet adjust things to suit there own mind and body's needs. Maybe it's 99% the same, maybe it's only 80% or 90% the same.

We will never know for sure, we only know that GM Lim says it's the same and his students believe him


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## howard (Apr 8, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> Dear Howard,
> 
> ...


Stuart, thanks. Nice post.


----------



## iron_ox (Apr 8, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> Dear Howard,
> 
> ...




Hello all,
Stuart,  nice post.  Pretty close to nailing it.  

In my original signature block, I simply stated that I was preserving original Hapkido for future generations.  I meant just that.  My "political" bend if you will is that Hapkido is the art originated by Dojunim Choi - this is what I have always been taught and this is my continued belief.  

A problem I have always had is the use of Hapkido as a generic term to describe any and all throwing arts that someone devises in Korea or by a Korean, or with Korean flavor.  I have pointed out a few here over time.  Nowhere in that block does it say "mine is more authentic" - it just says authentic.  Now as I have stated here, I will point out things I do not believe to be tracable back to Dojunim Choi - but frankly, if someone is happy learning something, I am not one to say that is inherently wrong - but maybe the use of the name Hapkido is.  Lots of groups have also taken Hapkido as a base and call it something completely different, and as I see it, way to go - when you want to define yourself, good job.  I thought that the block was innocuous - as Hollywood said here - we all see ourselves as Authentic in our eyes - so in all the places that both I and Stuart use this tag (not to drag you in this Stu) is this the one place it is complained about?

I rarely play the rank and time in card unless I have to - but a member here who is 11 years my junior in training time (not worried about wallpaper) seems obsessed with complaining about this signature block (the first one) - even though it is not directed at him - or anyone else for that matter.  Since again, in the course of this thread, this junior member decided to complain yet again about this block, I decided that I should add a defining tag line to the block.  I have discussed options with the moderators (including to my dismay MISSPELLING shesulsa's name - sorry again) and understanding their postion, decided that there is no need to directly comment to the babbling brook of misinformation - but rather define further what exactly I meant - particularly for the edification of that junior member.

Howard, for whatever your political agenda is, I am not a rash person.  This addition was deliberate and thought out.  As I am a firm believer in the Authenticity of the lineage of Dojunim Choi, and have always been taught that, I am just as conscience that Ji Han Jae and his adherants represent 90% of the world's Hapkido.  That being said, I examined Chicago and its Hapkido.  There is one instructor that has a fleeting past of connection directly to Dojunim Choi, but the instructor of this person left Hapkido to form his own thing - and the current instructor now does not teach, but imports grads from Yong-In university - which does not have a Hapkido program (so they are no longer teaching Hapkido actively).  There are several offshoots of the Ji structure here, but they have all gone their own way and added forms, and other non-Hapkido elements - but to my knowledge, there is no one that is currently directly affiliated with Sin Moo at all in Chicago.  Again, at least not with a dojang.

This use of dojang was also important because I know for a fact that their are Hapkido people in Chicago who have Ji lineage, but they do not teach or have dojangs.  The junior member does not have a dojang, but a college program.  Dojang to me is more than just a room you use a few hours a week, but a dedicated space where matial arts are practiced (to explain that definintion.)

For the record, although I am a proud member of the Jung Ki Kwan, I do not use that membership here to bolster my position.  I may comment on those issues raised directly about Grandmaster Lim, but would not feel comfortable speaking for him, or standing on his "coattails" to further my position in any way - and if I ever did that, I should not have.  There are several other members of the Jung Ki Kwan here on this board and in the US, and I would not want my belief or opinion to affect any efforts they may be making by assuming that we may all share the same opinions - because clearly we do not all share the same experience and background.  I respect those other members enough to never openly challenge them without asking within channels if an open question will cause a problem for them in any way - and will continue with this belief.

Howard, what else do you want to know?


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## howard (Apr 8, 2005)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Howard, for whatever your political agenda is, I am not a rash person...


Mr Sogor,

I have no political agenda.  Please dont' read more into what I wrote than is there.  Had I wanted to broaden my question, I would have.  I merely asked you - as directly as possible - what you meant when you say that you are the only "authentic" hapkido school in the Chicago area.

From your answer, I can understand your meaning.  Thanks for the clarification.


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## American HKD (Apr 8, 2005)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> Stuart, nice post. Pretty close to nailing it.
> 
> In my original signature block, I simply stated that I was preserving original Hapkido for future generations. I meant just that. My "political" bend if you will is that Hapkido is the art originated by Dojunim Choi - this is what I have always been taught and this is my continued belief.
> ...


Dear Kevin

After my last post and something Bruce said the other day I realized how subjective it is to say "Authentic HKD". it's only my opinion that it's authentic.

I now sign my signature using "Tradtional Hapkido". With that being said it's also only my opinion that I teach Trad. Hapkido. 

Someone else may say I don't, but his school does.

Everyone has thier own style, version, attitude about it.

I asked Ji Han Jae about all the people changing his system, he said it's Ok because he's the ROOT! that's all he cares about.


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 8, 2005)

Stuart,


"I asked Ji Han Jae about all the people changing his system, he said it's Ok because he's the ROOT! that's all he cares about."

And that my friend, is the nature of it all. To me this is what I have always believed. The lineage thing is not as relevant as many people like to talk about. As far as I'm concerned wether you have lineage from Choi, or Ji it does not matter. Because both of these men ARE infact the main roots of Hapkido. And just like in life, any tree that has roots, will automatically grow branches. This is why I think GM Chang does not talk much. He knows where his roots are, and just teaches. He does not get caught up in the BS. Like I have said, in 40 some years of teaching he has only promoted 9 people to 5th Dan or above. He does not argue with anyone, he does not put out books, or video's to make himself more, money or be more commercial. He just does, what he does and that's it. I am in no means a senior of Hapkido, but I have met some really good Hapkido teachers/students. Whether they are part of Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. they are all good practitioners of Hapkido. I do what I do because Ilike what we teach, it has everything that I could want in martial arts, and in life. And I have the upmost respect for GM Chang, and Master Allen. I'm sure everyone here feels the same about there group, and art.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 8, 2005)

I think you folks are on the right track. As I see it the place where we (and previous generations) have gotten into trouble is using lineage as some sort of absolute. I see it more as an indicator or guage. The closer to the trunk a person is, the more credit I give them. Duration counts for depth in that credit. This is also why I tend not to give as much credence to organizational affiliation as personal affiliation. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Apr 8, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Stuart,
> 
> 
> "I asked Ji Han Jae about all the people changing his system, he said it's Ok because he's the ROOT! that's all he cares about."
> ...


 
Dear Mike, 

Clarify your 1st sentence because, lineage is Important because many claim they do Hapkido when in fact they have no lineage!

All the Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. are legit HKD people even though they each do things there own way.

That's what Ji means about being the ROOT he's the Master of all of the above listed. Ji is not the Root of some guy who make a HKD system up like a MMA type system.

There's still a line that you can't cross and be considered "legit HKD"


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## howard (Apr 8, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Dear Mike,
> 
> Clarify your 1st sentence because, lineage is Important because many claim they do Hapkido when in fact they have no lineage!
> 
> All the Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. are legit HKD people even though they each do things there own way.


Stuart, Mike...

Perhaps what Mike means is that people who are affiliated with the organizations and masters mentioned above are "legitimate" by definition, and that their lineage doesn't matter in that all of these masters are accepted as legitimate by the hapkido community at large?  And surely there are others? (for example, Master Rim in Baltimore...)


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## glad2bhere (Apr 8, 2005)

Dear Howard: 

Now I think we are back on shakey ground again, because your observation comes down to which "hapkido community" you may be talking about. 

For instance in the matter of GM Rim (Baltimore), his approach to Hapkido is wonderful. People following him would undoubtedly think so. Those folks who subscribe to Joe Sheya might think the same of Sheya. But outside of BOTH respective schools the view might be very different. The same could be said of GM Myung compared to me and then again GM Myung compared to John Pelligrini. You are going to have different views betwixt and between the groups associated with each personality, and then again with those not aligned with any of the aforementioned. With so many judgements flying around all I can advocate for is to keep things as much oriented towards fact and verification as compared to oral tradition and claims. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 8, 2005)

Stuart,

Sorry, I did not mean for my first sentence to be so vague. I will try to put it in better wording. I was not in anyway trying to say that lineage is not important. Especially if your going too market yourself has Hapkido. If a school says the teach Hapkido, ofcourse they should be able to say what their lineage is. However what I was trying to say is this. Let's say you go to a Hapkido school, and what you see looks like good Hapkido technique. Then you ask them what there lineage is and the teacher says well, my Master studied under a 4th Dan student of Ji. And then you go to another school, and ask the same thing. And the teacher says my Master was a student of Choi's for 5years. Does the first school mean that their Hapkido is less of an art. I like to say NO. Each one has there roots. It is up to the teacher to make the art grow. "a seed is just a seed, just because you plant it does not mean it will automatically grow" It is up to nature, water, soil etc. that helps that seed become a tree. And then that tree will polinate, to make other trees. I feel the same with MA"S. Hapkido especially since I'm a part of it. Master Allen always told me "my job is to make you better than me"  "If I make you better than me, and you make your students better than you, the art grows" This could not be more true.

On another note- Yes there are alot of people out there that claim they teach Hapkido , and have no if any formal training in the art, and have  no l;ineage whatsoever. There is a certain person close to Master Allen's school in Florida. (I will not say is name, cause I don't want to put is name out there like that) but any way. This person has had no formal training in Hapkido. The only training he has recieved was going to a few Bong Soo-Han seminars when he lived in California. He holds a brown belt in Judo. But yet he advertises, markets his school as Hapkido. And believe it or not, his school is packed with students. I agree that people like this are a discrace to the art. 

So anyway all my point is that I don't think lineage is something that you can just measure out on a scale. But as long as that teacher teaches as authentic as possible, and carries on the traditions passed down to him wether from Ji, Rim, Kim, Lim, Chang, Han, Myung etc. that's whats important.


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## howard (Apr 8, 2005)

Hi Bruce,



			
				glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Now I think we are back on shakey ground again, because your observation comes down to which "hapkido community" you may be talking about.


Certainly a fair point. Actually, I was thinking very broadly when I used that term. Basically, all of the people around the globe who study a form of the art that can be traced back to Choi Young Sool.



			
				glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ...For instance in the matter of GM Rim (Baltimore), his approach to Hapkido is wonderful. People following him would undoubtedly think so...


Yes, I'd have to agree with you, even though the only things I know about Master Rim are things I've read in books and on the internet, including his own website. But wouldn't you agree that, as a long-time student of Choi, and given that he claims he teaches exactly what Choi taught him, Master Rim's legitimacy is beyond question?



			
				glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ...With so many judgements flying around all I can advocate for is to keep things as much oriented towards fact and verification as compared to oral tradition and claims.


Sounds reasonable to me. We all know that there are plenty of bogus claims out there, not only in hapkido but in all the other arts as well.


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## Jungki Hapkido (Apr 8, 2005)

Hi.

Interesting thread! 

Stuart--You stated,

"All the Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. are legit HKD people even though they each do things there own way.

That's what Ji means about being the ROOT he's the Master of all of the above listed. Ji is not the Root of some guy who make a HKD system up like a MMA type system."

I do agree that there are many out there who may be legit HKD people.

However, I do not believe that GM Ji is the root of all of the above as you stated...

GM Lim, Hyun Soo of the Jung Ki Kwan studied directly with Choi, Yong Sul.
Therefore he is not the root of the Jung Ki Kwan.

Founder Choi, Yong Sul would be the root in this instance.
Just wanted to clarify that....


Thanks!
Mike

Mike D'Aloia
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Kuhapdo
Iron Eagle Hapkido


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## glad2bhere (Apr 8, 2005)

"....Yes, I'd have to agree with you, even though the only things I know about Master Rim are things I've read in books and on the internet, including his own website. But wouldn't you agree that, as a long-time student of Choi, and given that he claims he teaches exactly what Choi taught him, Master Rim's legitimacy is beyond question?...." 

In a word, "no".  

We Humans confuse a lot of words sometimes. "Trust", "faith" and "belief" are three that used interchangeably--- a lot. Most of what we do is go on "faith" with a lot of these personalities. They might say that they have "trained with" somebody for 20 years. Now, what does that mean? Did they get together daily, every day for 20 years?  Did they show-up once a week--- once a month--- every six monthes? Do they teach "exactly" what they were taught, or do they teach something "similar" to what they were taught? They have a 6th Dan rank on the wall---- where did that come from? They _say_ its a legit certificate that they earned and was granted by a legitimate leader in the community? Do we "know" that its not an "airline promotion" or courtesy of a bottle of WHITE OUT? How about the guys who have seven arts posted on the front of their school. Do they really know 7 arts?  Do they really teach 7 arts? Did they really train in seven arts? 

Personally, Howard, ya know what "I" think?  I think this is one of the reasons a lot of folks running schools today would rather not get too many people together and have them start comparing notes. Pretty soon people start asking questions like 2+2 is not coming out to "4". 

For myself I quit listening to the "leadership" a long time ago. What I check out now is their students. If the students are problematic I simply write the teacher off. Pretty much its that simple. Regarding GM Rim, I don't think I have ever heard any garbage out of his students. Maybe others have but I haven't. That makes him OK--- at least in my book. Can't speak for others.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2005)

*Moderator Note:

 This thread has been split off of the original since this ongoing, tired discussion of Hapkido origins is completely off topic from the original post - again.

 For the record, any more discussions that degrade into this diatribe will be split off from future infractions to this thread.

 Gentlemen, stay on topic.

 Georgia Ketchmark
 MartialTalk
 Sr. Moderator*


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## American HKD (Apr 8, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Stuart,
> 
> Sorry, I did not mean for my first sentence to be so vague. I will try to put it in better wording. I was not in anyway trying to say that lineage is not important. Especially if your going too market yourself has Hapkido. If a school says the teach Hapkido, ofcourse they should be able to say what their lineage is. However what I was trying to say is this. Let's say you go to a Hapkido school, and what you see looks like good Hapkido technique. Then you ask them what there lineage is and the teacher says well, my Master studied under a 4th Dan student of Ji. And then you go to another school, and ask the same thing. And the teacher says my Master was a student of Choi's for 5years. Does the first school mean that their Hapkido is less of an art. I like to say NO. Each one has there roots. It is up to the teacher to make the art grow. "a seed is just a seed, just because you plant it does not mean it will automatically grow" It is up to nature, water, soil etc. that helps that seed become a tree. And then that tree will polinate, to make other trees. I feel the same with MA"S. Hapkido especially since I'm a part of it. Master Allen always told me "my job is to make you better than me" "If I make you better than me, and you make your students better than you, the art grows" This could not be more true.
> 
> ...


I agree!   

Good lineage is good lineage from whoever.


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## American HKD (Apr 8, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Howard:
> 
> Now I think we are back on shakey ground again, because your observation comes down to which "hapkido community" you may be talking about.
> 
> ...


Bruce 

You have a point of which camp you may be in.

CH to me is another animal, not in the trad. HKD world. What lineage would a CH HKD student have. JP, Gracies, Wing Chun?


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## American HKD (Apr 8, 2005)

Jungki Hapkido said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> Interesting thread!
> 
> ...


 
Dear Mike 

Sorry you're right I didn't mean GM Lim is from Ji's line. 

If you read back a little more you would have seen I copied and pasted that phrase from another poster.

We both were just illustrating what's good HKD lineage is not who comes from whom.


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## American HKD (Apr 8, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> *Moderator Note:*
> 
> *This thread has been split off of the original since this ongoing, tired discussion of Hapkido origins is completely off topic from the original post - again.*
> 
> ...


Ok guys we're off topic lets be careful here!

Also the moderator does'nt like the TIRED lineage discussion again so lets not talk about it anymore.:whip:


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Ok guys we're off topic lets be careful here!
> 
> Also the moderator does'nt like the TIRED lineage discussion again so lets not talk about it anymore.:whip:


 Clearly you misunderstood.  THIS is the thread to talk about lineage, origins.  Almost every single thread in Hapkido forum sways to this discussion and the interest here is bogging down.  So, this is where the discussion on lineage and origins will go - especially if I find it infiltrating another thread (which it always does, so this will be a long one).

 Please tell me there is something else you all love about Hapkido that merits discussion - we are all so VERY eager to hear it.

 Georgia Ketchmark
 MartialTalk
 Sr. Moderator


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## Jumper53 (Apr 8, 2005)

It is like a big online game: *Six Degrees of Choi, Yong Sul*

Can we re-name this thread?


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## glad2bhere (Apr 8, 2005)

".......It is like a big online game: Six Degrees of Choi, Yong Sul..." 

CRACKED ME UP!!!  :ultracool  artyon:  :ultracool 

Too True!! 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Apr 11, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ".......It is like a big online game: Six Degrees of Choi, Yong Sul..."
> 
> CRACKED ME UP!!! :ultracool artyon: :ultracool
> 
> ...


Pardon my ignorance.

What's Six Degrees of Choi, Yong Sul..." mean?


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## glad2bhere (Apr 11, 2005)

Dear Stuart: 

I think its a reference to the popular Hollywood game of a few years back involving the members of the later Rat Pack. Apparently the game was to demonstrate a connect among one member and another within 6 steps or relationships. Just one of those clever little activities the Beautiful People use to structure their time, yes? 

BTW: Its foundation is the belief that anyone on the planet can be tied to anyone else by 6 degrees of Separation with the most salient example being a jungle native and the Queen of England. All part of the "Global Village" or "Our Shrinking World" concept. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 11, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Bruce
> 
> You have a point of which camp you may be in.
> 
> CH to me is another animal, not in the trad. HKD world. What lineage would a CH HKD student have. JP, Gracies, Wing Chun?



My lineage is Me, Master Todd Taylor, GMP, GM Seo, GM Choi. I've trained with a Gracie and practiced WC. And we've never claimed to do trad. HKD. I find it amazing how many don't read up. Oh well can't win em all!
Have a happykido day!


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## American HKD (Apr 11, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> My lineage is Me, Master Todd Taylor, GMP, GM Seo, GM Choi. I've trained with a Gracie and practiced WC. And we've never claimed to do trad. HKD. I find it amazing how many don't read up. Oh well can't win em all!
> Have a happykido day!


Dear Hollywood,

I like your phase "Have a happykido day!" very cool.

Nothing personal but I read up on GM P. that's my problem.

Nothing seems that impressive by way of the MA expertise. 

1. The tapes I've seen of him don't impress me as a highly skilled HKD player. 

2. A very quick rise up the ranks to 9th dan. I'd love to see each of his dan ranks and know where and when he was promoted to 2nd,3,4,5,6, dan etc, more importantly by who and at what intervals of time where?

3. Many of us regular folks have more time and skill in HKD then GM P.

As a so called Traditional HKD guy, I never saw the need to strip HKD down to what is the so called "usefull material", cause it all has it's time and place. Most HKD players use any or all parts of the system as they choose, everyone has thier own favorite tech. that work for best for them.

You don't need CH to tell you what's good or what's for combat, any good HKD Instr. should help you out with that stuff.

Also the issue of cross training, I cross trainned in a couple of systems as my personal peferance, I also didn't need CH to cross train me with plug on modules so to speak. 

In my final analysis CH is just a diluted version of the real thing with extra plug in cross trainning options that anyone can do themselves with seminars just as GM P.

What many do lack is great sales and marketing plan, my hats off to GM P for working that all out Brilliant!

artyon:


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 11, 2005)

Okay so I stole the Qoute from Dark Kenpo Lord and his "Have a happy kenpo day" but, hey it works 

I think the problem stems from although you've "read up" on GMP, you've missed the point of what his system is and why it exists. Many don't. And that's OK. We just keep training.


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## American HKD (Apr 11, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Okay so I stole the Qoute from Dark Kenpo Lord and his "Have a happy kenpo day" but, hey it works
> 
> I think the problem stems from although you've "read up" on GMP, you've missed the point of what his system is and why it exists. Many don't. And that's OK. We just keep training.


Please explain I'll keep an open mind.


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 11, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Please explain I'll keep an open mind.



I stole it from his sig line? LOL
Sorry. But you're mind is already closed, you're previous response indicated as such. And besides, look at what you can find with an open mind and the answer will be given to you.


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## American HKD (Apr 11, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> I stole it from his sig line? LOL
> Sorry. But you're mind is already closed, you're previous response indicated as such. And besides, look at what you can find with an open mind and the answer will be given to you.


Sorry you feel that that way, but I think your mind's closed now!


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 11, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Sorry you feel that that way, but I think your mind's closed now!



Is it? I really hate to debate, so lets discuss  CHKD was designed for a demographic set. It is what it is, nothing less, nothing more. It's not an art, nor has it ever claimed to be. My best advice is look online for interviews with GMP about the whys and the whats. 

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot I don't agree with in not only the curriculum, but in management and so on and so forth. But training in it, and with others, including those who have had trad. HKD experiance has told me what I need to know.


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## American HKD (Apr 11, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Is it? I really hate to debate, so lets discuss  CHKD was designed for a demographic set. It is what it is, nothing less, nothing more. It's not an art, nor has it ever claimed to be. My best advice is look online for interviews with GMP about the whys and the whats.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there is a lot I don't agree with in not only the curriculum, but in management and so on and so forth. But training in it, and with others, including those who have had trad. HKD experiance has told me what I need to know.


I agree lets discuss. But I have alot of foundational questions as to why the need for CH in the first place? What gap was it filling in MA?

I've read alot of magazine articles and CH web site etc. I basically come away with looking at CH as a cross training system not unlike the JKD's types. They use the same mix of arts to make up thier styles HKD, BJJ, Wing Chun, Kali. Maybe not muay thai?


From you expirience please lay out all the pro/cons of CH?


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## glad2bhere (Apr 12, 2005)

Dear Stuart: 

Frankly, I don't know whose mind is open or closed. Machts nix, to me. What I _can_ say is that there is a standard of deportment or execution characterisitc of most arts which people with a level of experience in the KMA begin to ascribe to one art or another. This is a bit more than the typical "TKD people use their feet" or "KF do a lot of soft blocking". 

Reviewing WHF material the other day I was stuck (yet once again) how (overall) the WHF material has a singularly "TKD-esque" flavor to it. Not quite as much as say the IHF of Bong Soo Han but a bit more than the Sin Mu material of Ji. And this is pretty consistent across the board. By comparison I note that the later Choi traditions such as Lim Hyun Su and Dojunim Kim are more after the fashion of Aikido with a kind of coordination with the attacker which comes close to but not quite the same as Aikido. 

The reason I mention all of this is that when I view the ICHF material I note that the deportment or execution appears quite jumbled. Perhaps this is the result of blending bits from a variety of sources. The execution of Judo material does not blend well with the Aikido-like throws when one must also include concussive material such as punch and kicking. I note that GM Myungs WHF material can allow for more punching and kick because his joint-manipulation, chokes, locks pins, etc etc are more like Judo in their confrontational execution. On the other hand the material of Lim and Kim emphasize much less hard striking and blocking and more sense of blending with the attacker. Were I practitioner of ICHF material I could see a problem in that I might be sending mixed messages to my "muscle memory" regarding what my overall regard should be for the attacker in a confrontation. By extension, since Hapkido material effects us on all four planes of Being, I can imagine a person likewise having mixed thoughts and mixed feelings in a confrontation and I see NO benefit to that.  Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Apr 12, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> Frankly, I don't know whose mind is open or closed. Machts nix, to me. What I _can_ say is that there is a standard of deportment or execution characterisitc of most arts which people with a level of experience in the KMA begin to ascribe to one art or another. This is a bit more than the typical "TKD people use their feet" or "KF do a lot of soft blocking".
> 
> ...


Dear Bruce

It's sounds like you know more about CH then myself. 

I'm trying to figure out what CH is trying to do, I can't tell from the articles and thier web site as I mentioned, it just seems like a marketing tool for some JKD type theory with HKD as the buzz word.

As you pointed out CH tech are most probably jumbled because of the lack of one common philosophical thread running though all the material. 

5 or 6 arts can't all co-exsist as one unified method, however the JKD guys have done a good job making things fit. I would have to say Lee/Inosanto is light years ahead of JP who's a bad imatation in a sense. One the other hand the JKD camp has been at it alot longer.

As far as GM Lim goes I'm planning on going to thier seminar this summer held in NJ for a weekend. I would like to compare our tradition to thiers, I think it will be a really great expirience.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 12, 2005)

Dear Stuart: 

"....As far as GM Lim goes I'm planning on going to thier seminar this summer held in NJ for a weekend. I would like to compare our tradition to thiers, I think it will be a really great expirience....." 

If it was me, thats what "I'd" do. For myself, I went to Lim's seminar out here in Chicago. I used the same thinking in going to attend one of Ji's seminars' out in Colorado. People need to go and try for themselves as I view taking on an art or approaching a teacher as a pretty personal experience. 
Now, in my book some people I don't really need to go visit, so I don't see myself skipping down to Florida any time soon, if you catch my meaning. 

As far as Pelligrini goes I am familiar with his approach, having dutifully done my research, and yes, I have been to one of his seminars. I also have an axe to grind about how he dealt with GM Myung and the WHF but thats more of "my" issue than anything else and isn't really worth going into here. As it stands I approach Hapkido as a Mu-Do and as a constellation of material bound together by the Three Pillars. I don't see whip-stitching a bunch of techniques together and calling it Hapkido any more than you could disparate pieces of sports equiptment and sports rules and call it "Baseball".  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 12, 2005)

I really hate to sound like a troll, with a comment like "Well you just don't know" or "It's obvious you hate me" LOL or some other stupid comment. So I won't. But again, IMO all the answers are given to you. But I guess you'll see it as you will. I'll answer questions to the best of my knowledge, but I would consider it a losing battle. I've felt and belived, and there is no more changing my mind then there is changing yours. I would love to get into it, but nothing would change. *shrugs* I do however enjoy the enligting converstations we have here on the HKD boards. I personaly don't care that much, but makes for good reading. 

Stuart,
 There are no pro's and con's. If I go into that it's "I'm better/worse". I can tell you the differences and why they exist, and why WE do things the way WE do. I don't agree with all of the "differences" but I guess it's in how you look at it. I've been around and seen THKD, have several friends who do and frankly, someday I will, but not now. This suites me wonderfuly, and I believe there is far more depth then it might appear, as long as you have a good instructor who can show it to you. I'm glad there are people such as yourself preserving the art of THKD, because if we lose sight of where we came from what good is being where we are now? 
Have a happykido day! (By request)


----------



## American HKD (Apr 12, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> I really hate to sound like a troll, with a comment like "Well you just don't know" or "It's obvious you hate me" LOL or some other stupid comment. So I won't. But again, IMO all the answers are given to you. But I guess you'll see it as you will. I'll answer questions to the best of my knowledge, but I would consider it a losing battle. I've felt and belived, and there is no more changing my mind then there is changing yours. I would love to get into it, but nothing would change. *shrugs* I do however enjoy the enligting converstations we have here on the HKD boards. I personaly don't care that much, but makes for good reading.
> 
> Stuart,
> There are no pro's and con's. If I go into that it's "I'm better/worse". I can tell you the differences and why they exist, and why WE do things the way WE do. I don't agree with all of the "differences" but I guess it's in how you look at it. I've been around and seen THKD, have several friends who do and frankly, someday I will, but not now. This suites me wonderfuly, and I believe there is far more depth then it might appear, as long as you have a good instructor who can show it to you. I'm glad there are people such as yourself preserving the art of THKD, because if we lose sight of where we came from what good is being where we are now?
> Have a happykido day! (By request)


Greetings,

I agree there is alot of depth in each of the arts that make up CH, no question about that. The questions is how do all those arts fit together in the package CH promotes.

THKD lacks very little as a complete Art. The problem may be addressed better with the teaching of proper application and fighting tatics of all the material taught. 

The longer I train in HKD the more I realize it's all with-in ( of course I don't mean HKD is the perfect system ) but I do mean it's more inclusive than one might realize.

Example
Trapping is a tactic IMO a THKD practioner need only use the tactic the mechanics are already in place to a large extent, not move for move as in Wing Chun, but with-in the HKD framework it need only be applied.

Same with grappling to some extent, same with knife defense, weapons, etc. I hope I'm being clear about these important principles I'm speaking of. 

As a long term HKD practioner I can't help but to feel that someone like JP never matured in the THKD to realize what I'm getting at or that he was just on his quest to do what he wanted to do and never bothered to Master THKD and see what it could really yeild.

BTW none of that was meant as an attack, just an educated analysis by someone with over 25 in THKD.


----------



## Hollywood1340 (Apr 12, 2005)

No, of course not  And I think this is the case in many systems, that have "New and Improved" off shoots. But I understand why it was done and who it was done for. Now I don't technicaly fall under the category of who it was done for, but it still works  Eh, lets keep it going, this is good. I don't have many HKD people I network with


----------



## zac_duncan (Apr 12, 2005)

> But I understand why it was done and who it was done for. Now I don't technicaly fall under the category of who it was done for, but it still works


Just out of curiousity, being that this seems such a hot-topic, who do you think the system was created for? Just in your opinion. I seem to recall reading that it was created for people who couldn't commit the time to learn a "traditional" MA. Is this accurate, or am I mis-reading/remembering? 

Thanks.


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## American HKD (Apr 12, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> No, of course not  And I think this is the case in many systems, that have "New and Improved" off shoots. But I understand why it was done and who it was done for. Now I don't technicaly fall under the category of who it was done for, but it still works  Eh, lets keep it going, this is good. I don't have many HKD people I network with


 
Greetings,

You said you understand why it was done and who it was done for, GREAT!

That's what I would like you to explain to me, Please!


----------



## American HKD (Apr 12, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> "....As far as GM Lim goes I'm planning on going to thier seminar this summer held in NJ for a weekend. I would like to compare our tradition to thiers, I think it will be a really great expirience....."
> 
> ...


What was your expirience at Lim's seminar???


----------



## glad2bhere (Apr 12, 2005)

"....I seem to recall reading that it was created for people who couldn't commit the time to learn a "traditional" MA. Is this accurate, or am I mis-reading/remembering?....." 

No, that was my understanding as well. Can't make to much out of that for myself. I mean what about the people who can't find time for ICHF? Does somebody come along and shorten the curriculum for them? Then again, maybe it might start a trend. 4.5 Inning Baseball Games and Football events that end at Half-Time. How about 18 holes of Golf, but just irons and no putting!?!  OK. Now I'm gettin' punchy.... 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD (Apr 12, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> "....I seem to recall reading that it was created for people who couldn't commit the time to learn a "traditional" MA. Is this accurate, or am I mis-reading/remembering?....."
> 
> No, that was my understanding as well. Can't make to much out of that for myself. I mean what about the people who can't find time for ICHF? Does somebody come along and shorten the curriculum for them? Then again, maybe it might start a trend. 4.5 Inning Baseball Games and Football events that end at Half-Time. How about 18 holes of Golf, but just irons and no putting!?! OK. Now I'm gettin' punchy....
> 
> ...


Greetings

That sounds to dumb to be true, on the other hand it makes sense cause JP never had time to really learn HKD. Just Kidding!

Are the other courses in CH like WC, BJJ, HKD, Kali also the abridged version?


----------



## glad2bhere (Apr 12, 2005)

Dear Stuart: 

".....What was your expirience at Lim's seminar???...." 

It was okay, not particularly great and not particularly bad. Since it was a kind of "introductory" seminar the material was not the real centerpiece as kind of having a way of introducing GM Lim. He spent a load of time down at one end of the floor with White and Yellow Belts and we covered a lot of introductory information and a host of drills to reinforce his principles. 

My experience with seminars is a bit skewed as I am used to going into a seminar and have GM Myung bust my butt for a weekend. There was usually a theme for the higher ranks, a review of the kebonsu for the lower ranks and then focus on one of the weapons with tie-ins to how the weapon under discussion related to what we do MT-handed. Lim-s didn't have that flavor. 

Now I should also share that folks who followed him back to the East Coast from Chicago later reported that his seminars out there were labor-like affairs. Thats why I think you you do well to try him out for yourself. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 12, 2005)

Well people without the time for ICHF enjoy watching the WWE and sitcoms. Sitcoms because it's over in ONLY 1/2 hour, then then can find time to do more important stuff. And as far as shorting the curriculum, you are correct. I can have the same effect in far less time with a given technique. AND do it in less space. But only we truely privy to the ICHF know this. On a more serious note. Ahem. We have just had a BB in THKD sign with us. For a defense against two hands grabbed in back in back going to a centerlock he was suprised at although we both ended in the same position, how we got there was different, and took marketdly (sp?) less time and movement. He recognized how it worked, but had never seen it done that way before. I then took the time to learn his way. And I must admit I liked it more. That is why I think it's not ME our YOU GUYS, it's us. We both have something to share. Thank you for the discussion!


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 12, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings
> 
> That sounds to dumb to be true, on the other hand it makes sense cause JP never had time to really learn HKD. Just Kidding!
> 
> Are the other courses in CH like WC, BJJ, HKD, Kali also the abridged version?



Abridged according to whom? If you're looking to do what we do, and how we do it, yes they work just fine. IF you're looking into taking and making an ART of it, you might look elsewhere. But for our purposes the work very well. And most anywone from WC, BJJ or Kali will say "Ah yes, we have that too"


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## American HKD (Apr 12, 2005)

Dear James,

I apreciated the fact that you're reluctantly are taking part in this discussion.

Myself and another member have asked you very straight questions about explaining what CH is, the Philosophy, what it's trying to accomplish, but you have'nt responed yet.

If you can please try I will appreciate it.


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## zac_duncan (Apr 12, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> I can have the same effect in far less time with a given technique. AND do it in less space.


Far less time spent training or less time spent executing or both? Also, in less space? You've got an "AHEM" in there , so I'll assume you're joking but if not, at my school we fight damned close, right up on top of each other. It's essential for most techniques to be very, very close to your parter/opponent. Minimizes the threat of counters, makes you harder to hit for any friends he might have, etc... 



> That is why I think it's not ME our YOU GUYS, it's us. We both have something to share. Thank you for the discussion!


Excellent point. I've been curious about CHKD, just to know what's different. It's nice to get a perspective on it, though I am still a bit confused about what's different. The name confused me at first, since it seems that true HKD is "combat" HKD, so I'm still kind of searching for the key difference.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 14, 2005)

As long as we are poking around at the basics there is another theme that doesn't get talked about a whole heck of a lot. 

If you read Draeger, he relates that yawara proceeds from the original view that the only reason a person would want to wrestle around with another guy is to get them into a position where you could use a knife or weapon of opportunity on them. The wrestling was essentially a four position kind of grappling and the whole Idea was to get the guy pinned up against something (the ground is good   ) and then dispatch them or even bind them up. Yoroi something or other was what it was called. Draeger goes on to say that the origins of yawara proceed from a change in philosophy commonly attributed to the Chinese (Buddhists, maybe?) in which the idea of taking a guy down was not necessarily to take him out but to render him harmless (which I guess COULD include taking him out     ) 

Now the reason I am contemplating this is that Choi reports to have taught "yawara".  But up to the point that Chin Na and Yawara were observed in Korea there is nothing to indicate that the typical Korean held any lofty ideas about taking responsibility for NOT killing his opponent in a battlefield situation. In fact, the old reading of the O-Gae (#5) "that I may make a just kill" was only modified with the Japanese Occupation (maybe afterwards). 

Since we had mentioned the idea of Choi Yong Suls' philosophy sometime back I wonder if in pressing the idea of yawara he was elevating the ethic of Korean martial traditions at the same time. I wonder if this was a conscious effort or if it just came along with the material that he taught. Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Apr 14, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> As long as we are poking around at the basics there is another theme that doesn't get talked about a whole heck of a lot.
> 
> If you read Draeger, he relates that yawara proceeds from the original view that the only reason a person would want to wrestle around with another guy is to get them into a position where you could use a knife or weapon of opportunity on them. The wrestling was essentially a four position kind of grappling and the whole Idea was to get the guy pinned up against something (the ground is good  ) and then dispatch them or even bind them up. Yoroi something or other was what it was called. Draeger goes on to say that the origins of yawara proceed from a change in philosophy commonly attributed to the Chinese (Buddhists, maybe?) in which the idea of taking a guy down was not necessarily to take him out but to render him harmless (which I guess COULD include taking him out  )
> 
> ...


Greetings

I don't know if this helps any but it might shed some light?

I believe that Hapkido came from "Yawara". Did this Yawara come from Takeda your guess is as good as mine. What the exact nature of this yawara was or what Ryu HKD came from is unknown for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Yawara was desended from Chin Na because Yawara is an ancient system that pre-date "Ju" philosohy by at least 500 years. "Ju" was already associated with being a Martial Taoist not a Warrior as in the ealier Yawara.

Yawara may have been the first codified system of Locks, throws, strikes using the "gentle or yielding philosophy" 

Chin Na was never a style unto itself as it's found today, but was part of the curriculums of most Kung Fu systems each system having different ways of using Chin NA.

Unfortunately I have been unable to find a lot of solid info on Yawara because of it's age and it being replaced by Ju for so long already.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 15, 2005)

May we please get back to the discussion of Hapkido and its origins

Other than political views and maybe the desire to make money why are there a growing number of Hapkido federations and how are they differing from one another.
 If Hapkido is traced back to its first founder how did his forming of Hapkido differ from whatever training he had befor he made up the system


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## American HKD (Apr 15, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> May we please get back to the discussion of Hapkido and its origins
> 
> Other than political views and maybe the desire to make money why are there a growing number of Hapkido federations and how are they differing from one another.
> If Hapkido is traced back to its first founder how did his forming of Hapkido differ from whatever training he had befor he made up the system


I'll sit out the remainder of this thread, a person with some major input and knowledge can't comment which make things less interesting for me.

Sorry


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 15, 2005)

tshadowchaser,

Since it does not seem any one else will bite, I will. In my opinion Money is probably tthe biggest reason. Other than that I would have to say recognition, and Ego. Unfortunetly this has been an ongoing thing since Choi Youn-Sul's first students. I feel many of the students of Choi's felt that his teachings were not Korean enough. Which is understandable, do to the hatred between the two countries. As far as nowadays, your question being why is there so many different organizations, and how they differ from one another?

I would have to say again Recognition. Someone always wants to be at the top. Mainly because when you reach the top, inturn you get more power, and with power more ego. Unfortunetly most people that start going in that direction never come back. 

To answer your second part, How do they differ from one another? I would simply say, either not enough knowledge in the art to begin with when they start there organization, and/or the mix other arts into it and put a label on it and market it as Hapkido. Sad thing is there does not seem to be an end in site for people to do this. Unless our goverment decides to regulate it more, like they do in Korea. But I don't see that happening anytime while I'm alive.

For your last question. I don't think that Choi's system differed that much from what he was originally taught. With the exception of more kicking to have more kick defense, since there was a lack of this in the system that he learned. And for the fact that he was teaching civilians. There are certain things that you do have to withhold from your students, until you feel there is trust enough, and that student can handle the responsability of learning such things. However some people chosse to teach the more brutal techniques up front. Which me personally feel is dangerous. Until you truley know someone you should not be teaching certain things to them. Nowadays you never know who is affiliated with terrorist groups, gangs, etc. So inessence I think Choi probably had to hold things back, with maybe the exception of certain students of his. Just my two cents.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 15, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> IMHO I don't think Bruce shouldn't have been suspended I think this was about *ego and a power struggle with a moderator.*


 No, this was repeated disrespect directed at our staff. Mr. Simms had been told repeatedly how to complain if there was a problem. He chose not to go through proper channels. 

 For the record, the correct procedure is to either open a thread in the support forum, or contact Seig or myself (in that order) directly.



> Grow Up Here your taking yourselves way to seriously the pushisment doesn't fit the crime.


 Complaints about staff should be directed to adminteam@martialtalk.com.



> Also bester's comment much worse than Bruce's, I guess money talks.


 Mr. Bester has also been suspended. For the record, we have banned at least 2 major investors and suspended a dozen others in the last year. You can not buy a "get out of jail free" card here. 

 Now, any further comments concerning this issue, moderation or moderators in general, etc should be done in the proper manner so as to not disrupt this thread any further.

 Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen.
 - Bob


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## Mithios (Apr 16, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> I'll sit out the remainder of this thread, a person with some major input and knowledge can't comment which make things less interesting for me.
> 
> Sorry




I'll second that !!


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## shesulsa (Apr 16, 2005)

The discussion on pedagogy and techniques and CHKD vs. THKD has been moved to Basics of Hapkido thread.  

 I've also created a new thread for the general discussion of whatever your hearts desire - Hapkidoin can "flow" as much as they like!  Start it up and just keep on going.

 Enjoy!


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 16, 2005)

_I don't think that Choi's system differed that much from what he was originally taught. With the exception of more kicking to have more kick defense, since there was a lack of this in the system that he learned.

*I am not sure you can say that what DJN Choi taught lacked kicking or kick defense.  What you see as Diato Ryu today is not necessarily the same thing that DJN Choi learned.*

 And for the fact that he was teaching civilians. There are certain things that you do have to withhold from your students, until you feel there is trust enough, and that student can handle the responsability of learning such things. However some people chosse to teach the more brutal techniques up front. Which me personally feel is dangerous. Until you truley know someone you should not be teaching certain things to them. 

*It is my understanding that DJN Choi taught the very difficult material in the beginning and the more dangerous material along with the energy techniques later.* 

Nowadays you never know who is affiliated with terrorist groups, gangs, etc. So inessence I think Choi probably had to hold things back, with maybe the exception of certain students of his._

*I believe this to be the case as well.  DJN Choi was very vocal about certain things some of his students were doing he did not like and did not feel was representative of Hapkido.*

*Anyway there are different flavors in the art of Hapkido and that gives people choices wich is a good thing IMHO.*  :asian:


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 18, 2005)

Mr.Miller,

Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to make one clarification. In the first section that you quted me on, I was actually refering to Choi's system having MORE kicking, and kick defense. I was saying that I believe that what he learned in Japan lacked the kicks, and kick defense, Not that Choi's system lacked it. Thanks.


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 18, 2005)

_Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to make one clarification. In the first section that you quted me on, I was actually refering to Choi's system having MORE kicking, and kick defense. I was saying that I believe that what he learned in Japan lacked the kicks, and kick defense, Not that Choi's system lacked it. Thanks._

DJN Choi always claimed that he had one teacher only so all that he learned was from one person.  There is much debate on who that was!  As for me I believe DJN Choi.

It is great to have some good discussion without all the insults.  :asian: 

Take care


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## whalen (Apr 18, 2005)

Todd, 

I will give you a call so we can talk somtime this week inbetween therapy and lifes obstacles


Hal


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## Mike-IHF (Jul 3, 2005)

Master Miller, Howard,

I moved this discussion to this thread as to keep from getting off topic of the other thread. I'm not going to keep this discussion going since I feel that it's a never ending topic. So I'll write this last post regarding this discussion.

Master Miller, and Howard,

I understand fully where your comming from. And in your reply I can understand what you mean. However, even if GM Lim's view of "orthodox" is not to undermind other Hapkido groups, the problem is the term "orthodox" within in it's self suggest that. I don't even like the term used in religion, for the simple fact that I believe all faiths have a place. Just like Hapkido, or martial arts in general. For instance, what if I started a Hapkido group and I started calling it "Gnostic Hapkido" Gnostic meaning "to Know". I think I would get alot of people saying the same thing I'm saying to you. On that note, I'm sure GM Lim is a humble man, and hopefully I'll get the chance to meet him, and train with you guys. But, I honestly think it's weird for an older Korean man to use the term "orthodox" especially, since it is a term not familiar in Korean culture, with the exception of the spread of the Catholic church to Korea, which still to this day is not a prominant religion. Korea is mostly made up of Bhuddist, and no adays the growing population of Christianity. To me it sounds more of a american marketing term. But that is my own opinion. But if you say other wise, than I'll take your word for it. Anyway, you guys take care. BTW, I'm planning on doing a seminar sometime in the next few months. I'm trying to arrange like a all day outside seminar at one of the local parks. I'm in corispondence with a BJJ instructor, we are thinking about having both of us put on a seminar. Where people can join in on either the Hapkido, or Bjj, or both. I'll keep you all updated on that, and maybe you will be able to attend.


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