# Banke Shinobinoden



## dark_hadou (Apr 22, 2009)

anyone here study this style of ninjutsu ?
i found very few sites on this particular style
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banke_Shinobinoden
http://www.freewebs.com/bankeshinobinodenkensyujyo/


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## Chris Parker (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi,

This, I believe, has been covered in detail before, might do to check previous threads for the info you're after. But, for what it's worth, this organisation often raises many red flags, as it claims to teach various ryuha that have been considered extinct and dead for a long time now, without giving any real evidence to back it up. The best they have presented (to my knowledge) is the "official" endorsement of the Iga-Ueno Museum, which is kinda like having a pirate lineage which is officially endorsed by the Disney Pirates of the Carribean ride...

The endorsement came about, by the way, because the head of the museum hired these guys to help design their "ninja demos", and needed/wanted to give them some credibility. Jinichi Kawakami (the head of the group) also claimed that the lineages headed by Hatsumi Soke and taught in the Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan, and off-shoot organisations tracing back to Takamatsu Sensei are not real ninjutsu because it wasn't what he was teaching (he was the only holder of "real" ninjutsu, he claims). This goes against the findings of pretty well every historian and researcher worth their salt who has actually gone to Japan to find this art.

However, from memory Jinichi Kawakami was going to present a class/seminar in the US, can't remember when. Some members here said they were possibly going to attend, so maybe we'll get some first-hand information then. We can hope, I guess.


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## Bujingodai (Apr 26, 2009)

Some of my close associates are going. I can't make it anymore as it was rescheduled for a time in June when my employees are off on vacation.

I would have love to see what this guy is made of up front.
Nowadays I have a hard time believing anyone, legit or not.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 12, 2009)

Yeah I just saw a little posting of that Koka Ryu seminar on the current issure of Black Belt Magazine. The article didn't elaborate on the training other than the seminar being Jinichi Kawakami's first visit to the U.S. and that he is a Koka/Iga Soke of Ninjutsu according to the Iga Ueno Museum.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 12, 2009)

The problem with Jinichi is his claim. 



> His story is that as a boy he met an old man in a park who was teaching children how to fling coins with their fingers. The man, named Masado Ishida, was a medicine peddler, displaced by the war.


 
It is stories like this that makes it hard to swallow. Ban ke means Ban-attend Ke-family or household. Kinda of a weird last name. The Kanji for Oniwaban(ban) and Fujita Seiko Ban Kenpo appear to me to be different Kanji at least to me without my glasses  lol. 

An excellent work on Koga is Mr. Don Roley's writing on the subject:
http://www.oniko.de/download/sonstige/roley-history-of-koga-ryu.pdf

As Chris said just because a museum endorses it does not make it anymore legit after all good publicity equals more $$$.


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## George Kohler (May 12, 2009)

Ban-ke (  &#20276;&#23478;) is one of the 53 Koga (Koka) families. Specifically, the Ban family were located in the Minakuchi-cho (  &#27700;&#21475;&#30010 area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minakuchi,_Shiga


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## Chris Parker (May 13, 2009)

I believe the name was taken from (Or originated from? Can I be that kind?) the Ban family as stated by George, as well as the title for the Bansenshukai, which is fairly freely referenced.

The full name Banke Shinobinoden should translate as "Ban Family Nin (Shinobi) Transmission/Tradition". Bansenshukai, by the way, translates as "Myriad Rivers Converge In The Sea", sometimes rendered as "10,000 Rivers Collect in the Sea". This could be the different kanji for "ban" that Jadecloud is noticing...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 13, 2009)

Chris the Kanji for Ban in Bansenshukai is different than the Ban in Ban ke.

Also the Ban in Ban ke is different than the Ban used in Oniwaban and the Ban used in Seiko's Kenpo. Thats alot of Ban.

I guess the term Ban ke is its code name or whatever and not a family name. It just sounds weird to be called the attending family as a family name. Sounds cool for a code name though.


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## Chris Parker (May 13, 2009)

Thanks, Jadecloud. I haven't had a chance to check out all the kanji for myself yet, so it was just a hypothesis. Good to know.


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## RoninX (May 15, 2009)

The seminar is this month.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 15, 2009)

I was invited as a guest but do to the schedule change their is no way to make it over there.


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## RoninX (May 15, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I was invited as a guest but do to the schedule change their is no way to make it over there.




Do you know the day?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 16, 2009)

RoninX said:


> Do you know the day?




The rescheduled dates are June 26th, 27th and 28th at Drew University!


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## RoninX (May 16, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The rescheduled dates are June 26th, 27th and 28th at Drew University!



Thank you!


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## ElfTengu (Jul 3, 2009)

There's a lot of talk and all sorts of infantile "I told you so" and "No you didn't" discussion going on on various forums but at the end of the day, even if the two gentlemen at the recent seminar were proven to be genuine, it only proves that they and their immediate students are genuine.

It does NOT vindicate anyone else who has been abusing the name Koga for years. And I'm sooooooo glad it actually turns out to be Koka or Kouka because it sounds so much less cool than Koga and will hopefully discourage further imposters.

But most hilarious of all is the fact that if all these spurned ninja wannabees go rushing to Kawakami for instruction, they will last 2 minutes if they didn't even have the discipline to keep going at X-kan taijutsu, which it would appear is much easier on its students than Koka Ryu would ever be. These two guys appear to have trained harder than any internet warrior would ever be prepared to do.


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## Bujingodai (Jul 3, 2009)

I've seen the clips, they didn't seem too impressive.
My friend attended, he said Kawakami was a very nice man. So take that for what it's worth
I was going to attend but when the dates changes it mired it for me.
I agree with the people rushing to things, though I heard there was only 30 there.
Most Koganuts don't strive for instruction they strive to justify themselves.
However having trained with quite a few of them, some of them take their training very seriously. Some are very embarrasing to be around.
And yes discipline of the Kan would be much lighter so if they couldn't handle it, good luck with a tougher school.
I left the Kan due to the lack of discipline personally.


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## ElfTengu (Jul 6, 2009)

I couldn't access the clips on any of the forums. Any ideas?

I've seen the old ones of Kawakami but not those of the seminar.


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## elder999 (Jul 6, 2009)

Interestingly, another website claims in an "e-mail" interview, that Meik Skoss was present at the seminar, and favorably impressed to the point of almost calling it "genuine."



> _It is more accurate to say that I think what Mssrs. Kamakami and Kiyomoto said made sense, given what I know of how many of the traditional Japanese arts -- by which I mean not just martial arts, but performing arts and crafts as well -- have developed and been transmitted to modern times. The words I used was, "it all parses," meaning that what he said is consistent with other things I have heard, read, and seen. What he said makes sense, as opposed, for_
> _example, the stuff that Stephen Hayes, Hatsumi Masaaki and others of that ilk have written. _
> 
> _*In conclusion, I think it's best to say that I believe Mssrs. Kawakami and Kiyomoto have a legitimate tradition. Whether or not it is being transmitted in the traditional manner at this time is not something I'm prepared to comment upon without observing the training and discussing it with them at length*._


 
A lot of other interesting things in that interview, btw,,,,,


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 6, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Interestingly, another website claims in an "e-mail" interview, that Meik Skoss was present at the seminar, and favorably impressed to the point of almost calling it "genuine."
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of other interesting things in that interview, btw,,,,,



Having had conversations with Meik Skoss, I have to admit that this carries weight with me. Granted, I am still a newbie (< 1 year) and may not know all the angles and agendas. From what I read on koryu.com, I had the impression that they really know their stuff.

EDIT: Here is the interview
http://kogaryuninjutsuint.blogspot.com/


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jul 6, 2009)

So Koryu people want to see Hatsumi's scrolls but then this guy shows up doesn't need to show any scrolls and he is deemed legit?


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## Chris Parker (Jul 6, 2009)

Hmm, well, if Meik Skoss says it's genuine... that doesn't really mean anything to me! 

Meik has constantly simply dismissed any claim by any of the X-Kans for a decade or two now, based in the main on the way the schools are taught. By combining the various lineages, rather than teaching them separately, this removes them from the "koryu" title (if you were learning Togakure Ryu in it's pure form then maybe, but not if it is all mixed up with Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu et al.), claiming that the BUjinkan methodologies (combined lineages) make it a modern method of transmission, therefore not koryu. However, he (and the other koryu guys) do freely admit that parts of the X-Kans are koryu systems: Kukishin Ryu, and Takagi Ryu in particular. And these are not questioned.

Then, reading through the interview, there are a lot of occasions where the interviewer is putting words in Meik's mouth, rather than him saying what they are claiming. His words simply said (to me) that he was impressed with Kawakami in that they seemed to know their history and presented without the "bombast or romantic mythologising" which he attributed to Hatsumi, Hayes etc. 

He also said "It all _parses"_, which could be a typo. If he really meant "parses", then he said "It all breaks into pieces", or it all fit together with his readings. If he meant "It all passes", then all that means is that it didn't leap out at him as being movie-jumping-up-backwards-into-trees kinda stuff. He then goes on to say that he was more convinced of the legitimacy based on the detail that Kawakami said it wasn't one of his precious koryu systems. However, if it is an unbroken lineage dating from pre-Meiji Restoration, then it is a Koryu system. Even if it is a broken lineage, it can still claim that title (there a quite a few koryu around now that have broken lineages, even to the point of having no head at the present moment). That just confuses me. It's legit because they don't claim it is?

The last point in this interview (and I feel there is a lot more said there that we aren't reading... maybe less flattering to the Koga group?) is that an instructor of Meik's who trains in Katori Shinto Ryu (which also claims some Ninjutsu in it's teachings, although from most reports that is mostly theoretical espionage, not technical knowledge) says that Meik's description is not dissimilar to what he has encountered. Not surprising, really. I'm sure that if he was to compare the espionage aspects of the X-Kan lineages (Kumogakure Ryu, Togakure Ryu etc) then there will be great similarities there as well. Just not on the technical side.

So while I do respect Meik quite a bit, I really do disagree with him when it comes to the Ninjutsu-related traditions, as that is not his area of expertise. So, no, he doesn't carry much weight here with me. I'm still waiting for some actual evidence of transmission (you know, scrolls or the like), otherwise I'm likely to not believe that a Koga lineage has survived unknown til now. But it'd be great if it has!


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 7, 2009)

Hi Chris,



Chris Parker said:


> He also said "It all _parses"_, which could be a typo. If he really meant "parses", then he said "It all breaks into pieces", or it all fit together with his readings.



Being a software developer, the 'parses' statement had a different meaning to me. if something parses, that means it is a consistent whole without missing pieces or anomalies. If we say something parses, then we mean that what we got is exactly how we would expect something to be if it is genuine.

For example, the you-know-who ninjutsu (or was that dragonball ninjitsu) guys... their system does not parse. The story is full of holes, there are omissions, there are things which should not be there, some of the story does not fit any historical context, etc...

I've had email conversations with Meik about this topic in the past , and his main objection to Xkan was how was taught / transmitted (in combination with the controversy about the scrolls) . And he does have a point, in that what is taught in Xkan in general is a modern system. But if someone at shihan level is taught e.g. kukishin according to the scrolls, and graded as such, I could call that koryu transmission. It does not matter much to me how any Xkan is acknowledged, and given that I am much less informed that you or Meik, any opinion I have is based on an incomplete picture.

Anyway, while I may not agree with all of his conclusions per se, he knows a lot about koryu systems and the history and context of traditional japanese arts. So if he says that it all parses, that, to me, is in indication that the system as an entity is probably legit, even though the curriculum may or may not be ninjutsu at all.

It would be great if Banke Shinibinoden is a surviving Koga style. I don't know if it is, and until the matter of the scrolls is sorted out, the point will remain inconclusive. But if someone like Meik says it may be legit, then I am willing to consider the notion that Banke is at least not a system cobbled together in the 80s, even though its status as 'real' ninjutsu still remains unclear.



Chris Parker said:


> The last point in this interview (and I feel there is a lot more said there that we aren't reading... maybe less flattering to the Koga group?) is that an instructor of Meik's who trains in Katori Shinto Ryu (which also claims some Ninjutsu in it's teachings, although from most reports that is mostly theoretical espionage, not technical knowledge) says that Meik's description is not dissimilar to what he has encountered. Not surprising, really. I'm sure that if he was to compare the espionage aspects of the X-Kan lineages (Kumogakure Ryu, Togakure Ryu etc) then there will be great similarities there as well. Just not on the technical side.



I have 1 japanese friend, whom I got to know in the context of Japanese blades and sharpening stones. From my dealings with him and through him, I have some appreciation (primitive though it may be) for the nuance of Japanese conversation. Given the short length of the interview, and the fact that it was translated to english, I am convinced that there is a lot missing.


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