# Yang Taijiquan Video Clip!



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 22, 2007)




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## Xue Sheng (Jun 22, 2007)

Thanks Brian


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## East Winds (Jun 23, 2007)

Yes, Thanks Brian. Can't say I was terribly impressed though:shrug:. Very Wushu-ish.

Very best wishes


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 23, 2007)

East Winds said:


> Yes, Thanks Brian. Can't say I was terribly impressed though:shrug:. Very Wushu-ish.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Wow, East Winds based on seeing Wushu once in a while I would say they do not look anything alike.  This seems closer to the Yang Taijiquan that I used to see regularly in the parks when I lived in the Metro Detroit area.  If you can point as to why you think it is Wushu-ish I would appreciate it.  By the way thanks for commenting on it as I know that you and Xue Sheng can point out differances that an untrained eye just cannot see.


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## East Winds (Jun 24, 2007)

Brian,

Sorry for the delay in replying and you are correct, I should have expanded on my thinking in my original post. As a practitioner of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan (from Yang Zhen Ji), I consider modern 24 step form to be a  "Wushu" form. I also know that Jesse Tsao has a huge reputation and is widely respected in Taiji circles. However I consider the form he shows here (The beginning of Part 3 of the long form) to owe more to 24 Step than to Traditional Yang form. Of course I should now tell you why I think that. In Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan, high stepping is not considered good form. His elbows go way beyond his waist when withdrawing the arms. His elbows are high (contrary to the 2nd essence). Turning the foot on the toes is a no no for Traditional Yang, as is bobbing up and down. His eyes follow his hands and do not look at his opponent. He pushes postures beyond their natural and martially effective boundaries. Cross stepping is definitely bad form in Traditional Yang. All of these are of course perfectly acceptable in modern "Wushu" forms and from this perspective his form is good. I note that his main teacher was Li Deyin (one of the founders of 24 step) but none of the Yang family. I was not trying to decry Jesse Tsao, just to say I did not think it was Traditional Yang Family tajiquan that he was demonstrating. All of the above is of course only my own personal opinion and I would welcome others views.

Very  besy wishes


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 24, 2007)

East Winds said:


> Brian,
> 
> Sorry for the delay in replying and you are correct, I should have expanded on my thinking in my original post. As a practitioner of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan (from Yang Zhen Ji), I consider modern 24 step form to be a "Wushu" form. I also know that Jesse Tsao has a huge reputation and is widely respected in Taiji circles. However I consider the form he shows here (The beginning of Part 3 of the long form) to owe more to 24 Step than to Traditional Yang form. Of course I should now tell you why I think that. In Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan, high stepping is not considered good form. His elbows go way beyond his waist when withdrawing the arms. His elbows are high (contrary to the 2nd essence). Turning the foot on the toes is a no no for Traditional Yang, as is bobbing up and down. His eyes follow his hands and do not look at his opponent. He pushes postures beyond their natural and martially effective boundaries. Cross stepping is definitely bad form in Traditional Yang. All of these are of course perfectly acceptable in modern "Wushu" forms and from this perspective his form is good. I note that his main teacher was Li Deyin (one of the founders of 24 step) but none of the Yang family. I was not trying to decry Jesse Tsao, just to say I did not think it was Traditional Yang Family tajiquan that he was demonstrating. All of the above is of course only my own personal opinion and I would welcome others views.
> 
> Very besy wishes


 
Hey EastWinds thanks for replying.  That my friend is a very good post and why a board like MartialTalk can really provide good information.

I look forward to other peoples opinoins as well.


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## Taijiguy (Aug 21, 2007)

Here's Yang Zhenji so you can see the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu334CRifik&mode=related&search=

BTW, some of those "no no's" are considered bad form for the standardized system too (excessive bobbing up and down, and turning the foot on the toes).  Doesn't mean you won't see a lot of it though 

A couple other traditional Yang style interpretations I find interesting:

Dong Yingjie, one of Yang Cheng Fu's top students:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8ydIbWD_sQ&mode=related&search=

Fu Zhongwen another of Yang Cheng Fu's top students:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIpKW6AnKYw&mode=related&search=

Nui Chunming started with Yang Jianhou and later became a YCF student:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnxokIPLzJM&mode=related&search=

Even though all their interpretations are a bit different, I think they all have a lot of strength and substance in their form work.  Not as "floaty" as you see a lot of the modern people.  Not bobbing up and down excessively, not a lot of wasted movement (looks beautiful but with purpose beyond looking pretty), steady footwork (not sliding around), etc.


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## East Winds (Aug 22, 2007)

taijiguy,

Yes, all the guys are performing Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan the way it was meant to be performed. Not like the modern "Wushu" interpretation seen so often nowadays.

Very best wishes


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## Keith Kirkendall (Oct 7, 2007)

Something I noticed in the videos was a lot "dead" movement in the hands. The wrists were not moving from yin to yang throught the entire movements. The wrists would begin at yin or yang and end the same. I guess the Taijiquan I have learned is different.


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## Sunrise (Oct 7, 2007)

I agree with EastWinds postings, and just want to add, that the massive twisting of the knee area is a horrible thing for continued knee health. Even if one is "only" doing a form for relaxation or for fun, that should never happen

:rules: "Watch your knees, you need them your life long!"


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## Keith Kirkendall (Oct 7, 2007)

I watched another clip on youtube pertaining to push hands. I have also learned differently about this. There was absolutely no fajing involved in the "pushes"...true fajing does not move the recipient back much(he should feel it more internally). Furthermore, when the recipient was being pulled, there was no violent jerking back on the arm to send the shock effect into the recipient. The pushes were only physical pushes and sent the recipient flying back several feet...this is not fajing. The pulls simply physically pulled the recipient back several feet...this is not fajing. The master and student were constantly losing contact with eachother's arms...again not correct. Another thing I noticed was how both practitioners were only moving their arms around and not turning the hips and waist to properly flow with the movements. Again this is how I was taught.


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## East Winds (Oct 8, 2007)

Keith,

Yes. Spot on!!! Too many people think that Fa Jin is somehow "explosive". What utter nonsense. Yang Cheng Fu defined it as "Store energy as though drawing a bow. Issue energy as though releasing an arrow". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 This is the true Fa Jing of Traditional Yang Style Taijiquan.

Very best wishes


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## Sunrise (Oct 9, 2007)

We might need to define "explosive" I think, befor we might agree on "nonsens".
Yes, Fajin is like drawing a bow and releasing the arrow, but the arrow does not get pushed gently or slowly away from the bow, but with a sudden burst of kinetic energy - hence the term explosive.
If you aim more downward, with a "short" energy, inside the body of an opponent it is an internal shock, and not much is seen on the outside.
If you aim for the shoulderarea instead you very likely uproot him and send him flying with a more "long" energy. IMHO it depends what you are aiming for.


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## East Winds (Oct 9, 2007)

Sunrise,

It is the arrival of the arrow which is "explosive". Not the release.

Very best wishes


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## Sunrise (Oct 9, 2007)

Well, I shot a lot bows  the act of letting go of the arrow is easy and relaxed, the force from the bow itself, propelling the arrow forward, is very explosive, that is what I mean


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## Keith Kirkendall (Oct 9, 2007)

Please feel free to look up taichiworld.com. There is a lot of great free information about taijiquan and bagwazhang. Adobe acrobat reader is a must for much of the wonderful information to glean from. Free videos, articles, books, magazines...all from a great teacher, Erle Montaigue. This information will open your eyes to explore taiji or bagwa; plus many more goodies.


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## bigfootsquatch (Oct 10, 2007)

Keith Kirkendall said:


> Please feel free to look up taichiworld.com. There is a lot of great free information about taijiquan and bagwazhang. Adobe acrobat reader is a must for much of the wonderful information to glean from. Free videos, articles, books, magazines...all from a great teacher, Erle Montaigue. This information will open your eyes to explore taiji or bagwa; plus many more goodies.


 
Erle does have some good information, and his tai chi has been discussed here quite a bit. His "yang cheng fu" form is not quite like the yang cheng fu's form that YCF performed, at least not in his later years(yes I can compare if you would like). According to Erle, he does the Chen Wei Ming version of the form; I don't know who else does the "CWM version" to compare. 

Also his YLC form, which is actually from Yang Shao Hou's lineage(supposedly, and according to some he changed the form to small frame while YLC practiced Old Frame, who knows?) looks like a mix of his yang cheng fu form and chen pan ling's form with fajing added. Now, take a look at all his clips, and you will see that his fajing is practically the same, whether he is showing the YCF form, YLC form, or bagua. If you want to know more about the fajing in the YCF form then read around some in the forum or ask East Winds; he explains it really well.

You also have to ask yourself if it is as Erle explains. That is, if the Chen style was fundamentally flawed and Yang Lu Chan evolved the style into the Old Yang Style. Then in other places he turns around and explains that Lu Chan never learned Chen style and learned from the Chen San Feng lineage. So Erle kinda puts himself in a bind here. He says one thing on his videos, and another in his books. 

Also of note, is that Erle belittles Cheng Fu, Fu Zhong Wen, and Cheng Man Ching as CF-destroying tai chi and unable to fight, FZW-saying wind would scatter chi so where long sleeves(erle later said not to practice when it is windy) and CMC as unable to fight as well as destroying tai chi, and while everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions...why would he have videos on the intermediate and highest levels of the Yang Cheng Fu form, complete with fajing Dim Mak applications equiv. to his Yang Lu Chan style in terms of execution, but the applications are somewhat difference in terms of where the strikes go etc...

Lastly, many may not realize this, but Erle actually claims copyright on the whole Old Yang Style system. I know of four people that have been threatened with legal action for teaching Old Yang Style, or advertising their style as OLD Yang Style, heaven forbid if they called it Yang Lu Chan style. So if he can claim copyright, then it is most likely his own creation.


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## Keith Kirkendall (Oct 10, 2007)

The taijiquan that I personally practice is the Old Yang Style originating from Yang Lu Ch'an. The Fajing is very explosive and violent in nature to facilitate practical self-protective methods. My instructor taught me this; and believe me, feeling is believing...I can literally feel an electrical type of explosion internally. I do not fly back several feet, maybe a foot at the most. Fajing is not a push or a pull, it is a violent "sneeze" of the body with a whipping type of action...power generating from the legs/hips/waist. Word of caution, use restraint for this method as all out fajing could be very dangerous to your training partner. Any energy restoration, revival or balancing method is of vital importance to do to your partner after you finish training. VERY DANGEROUS...USE THE UTMOST CAUTION AND RESPECT FOR YOUR PARTNER!


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## Keith Kirkendall (Oct 10, 2007)

Please feel free to read more of Erle's free stuff on his website. I am not shy to say this, he is an honest, and compassionate human being. I believe he had good reason to copyright things. It is not to seek his own glory, but to protect good information. He has provided free information to my nephew who sruggles with autism...there are certain martial exercises my nephew can do that will help him with the autism. There is much wonderful info from this man. I know that Erle's purpose is not to belittle everyone that is out there. His purpose is to make us all better martial artists. Bigfootsquatch, have you confronted Mr. Montaigue about what you have posted? If you would personally ask him about these issues, I am sure he will discuss this with you and clear things up. I am sure there is some kind of misunderstanding or miscommunication from what you have said.


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## bigfootsquatch (Oct 10, 2007)

Keith Kirkendall said:


> Please feel free to read more of Erle's free stuff on his website. I am not shy to say this, he is an honest, and compassionate human being. I believe he had good reason to copyright things. It is not to seek his own glory, but to protect good information. He has provided free information to my nephew who sruggles with autism...there are certain martial exercises my nephew can do that will help him with the autism. There is much wonderful info from this man. I know that Erle's purpose is not to belittle everyone that is out there. His purpose is to make us all better martial artists. Bigfootsquatch, have you confronted Mr. Montaigue about what you have posted? If you would personally ask him about these issues, I am sure he will discuss this with you and clear things up. I am sure there is some kind of misunderstanding or miscommunication from what you have said.


 
Actually I have asked him about why he would insult Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Cheng Fu(since he has photos of him and FZW as well as teaches his version of the Cheng Fu form) and Cheng Man Ching, and the result is buried under Horror Stories in this forum. It ended up being quite a big thread. I think theres another thread I made that is still in this section. Erle does have some good information, but he has NO right to claim copyright on the Old Yang Style. He is not even a YANG, nor did he pay for his lessons or sign any formal contract saying that the style was his. The only way he could possibly claim copyright is that he made it up. Is his taiji good or bad? It's whatever you like really. I have no problem with any Erle Montaigue students or fans. I'm glad people can utilize his information, but the man has no right to:

1. Claim copyright on martial arrts such as Wudang, Yang Lu Chan's Tai Chi(though he could if called by it's real name, Erle Montaigue Tai Chi)
2. Publicly insult masters like FZW and YCF in one place, then praise them in another to sell tapes
3. I forgot this; He also claims that anyone else teaching any lineage of Yang Tai Chi(shao hou, ban hou, etc), that they are lying and are really teaching modified ycf forms, and these are people he doesn't even know.
4. Claims that many masters(including yang jwing ming) order his tapes then secretly plagarize his work as their own.

I could go on with a few other things, but I'm not trying to demonize him. Just making it clear that I have plenty of experience with him, both personally and through his site. 

Anyway, one person's experience doesn't mean anothers will be the same. Like I said, he has plenty of good information out there when it is not relating to tai chi history(or grappling!) His Reptilian Brain information is really good, and I enjoyed reading the Internal Gung Fu book as well as his applications for his two versions of the yang tai chi form.


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## Keith Kirkendall (Oct 10, 2007)

Don't tell me, tell Erle. He is an honest and compassionate man. If he does not have the right, I am sure he would be behind bars right now. Enough of discussing this as I see where this is heading.


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## bigfootsquatch (Oct 10, 2007)

Keith Kirkendall said:


> Don't tell me, tell Erle. He is an honest and compassionate man. If he does not have the right, I am sure he would be behind bars right now. Enough of discussing this as I see where this is heading.


 
I told you I have discussed it with him. I said he had good stuff; I've said that on here; I've said that to him as well. Likewise, I also tried to explain to him how I felt while being as understanding as possible from his POV. Many others I know have done the same and have gotten the same results I have, but anyway Erle has been talked about enough on here, and this isn't even a thread based on him. Great that you like him. Don't get offended if I say something you don't like. I can be blunt sometimes. People do not have a right to bash others, and there is especially no need to bash people who are dead! If you like Erle, that's great. I like some of his work as well. Not everyone does. Not everyone likes me. Not everyone likes Tai Chi in general.

Matter of fact here are some positives about Erle:
1.Wealth of Information
2.Offers as much free as "for sale" material
3.Reponds swiftly to emails
4.Can generally explain the reason why he does what he does in his martial arts, though one may not agree with his reasoning, they are nonetheless valid.


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