# Combat Cane?



## Mayhem 1906 (Feb 22, 2013)

Hello all,

Newbie to the forum, and I hope yall can answer a question for me.  I am looking for a cane that can be used as a weapon in the worst case scenario.  I have seen a few online from canemasters and other sites, and I was wondering if anyone had experience or insight into the different brands, types, models, etc..

To be specific, I need a cane primarily for mobility impairment, and the use as a self defense weapon is second to that.  Also, as I frequent federal and municipal sites, I need something that is perfectly legal and won't set off any red flags, so basically an oak/hickory cane, not the types with swords, pepperspray, flamethrowers (kidding), etc.  I have a background in TKD and Aikido, but a severe injury has left me disabled.  Running from a threat is not an option, and my reduced mobility and inability to bear weight or pivot on one leg has impacted my empty handed skills.  Obviously if Im attacked, Ill do what I need to do and there are certainly many practioners with far more severe conditions, but since Im going to be using a cane anyway, it makes sense to carry a useful one rather than the plastic el cheapo model the doctors hand out.

Thank you in advance to any and all who are willing to assist.


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## CuongNhuka (Feb 22, 2013)

Even the cheap models the doctors hand out have to be strong enough to hold up atleast part of an adult, so it can be used to give some serious damage. It might fold up after a few shots, but really, any cane has to be fairly strong, so any cane will work.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 22, 2013)

Blunt stuff can be used to beat people. Canes are blunt.


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## lklawson (Feb 22, 2013)

Mayhem 1906 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Newbie to the forum, and I hope y&#8217;all can answer a question for me.  I am looking for a cane that can be used as a weapon in the worst case scenario.  I have seen a few online from canemasters and other sites, and I was wondering if anyone had experience or insight into the different brands, types, models, etc..


Go to a Farm & Feed or Tractor Supply store and buy a "Stock Cane" for $18.  They're hickory and have a wide crook.  They're also finished with a all-weather finish which makes them additionally durable and unnoteworthy in the extreme (aka "ugly").



> To be specific, I need a cane primarily for mobility impairment, and the use as a self defense weapon is second to that.  Also, as I frequent federal and municipal sites, I need something that is perfectly legal and won't set off any red flags, so basically an oak/hickory cane, not the types with swords, pepperspray, flamethrowers (kidding), etc.  I have a background in TKD and Aikido, but a severe injury has left me disabled.  Running from a threat is not an option, and my reduced mobility and inability to bear weight or pivot on one leg has impacted my empty handed skills.  Obviously if I&#8217;m attacked, I&#8217;ll do what I need to do and there are certainly many practioners with far more severe conditions, but since I&#8217;m going to be using a cane anyway, it makes sense to carry a useful one rather than the plastic el cheapo model the doctors hand out.
> 
> Thank you in advance to any and all who are willing to assist.


You should check into systems which are specifically designed to address cane use while being limited in mobility.  The biggest problem with most cane systems (including the ones I teach) is that they assume that the person doesn't actually need a cane to walk.  There are a few systems out there.  Chas Clements, a Silat instructor, used to have a video entitled "Combat Cane for Cripples."  Hard to find now but worth looking for.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 22, 2013)

Well, if you want to be fancy, get a shillelagh and learn bataireacht, or if that's unavailable, use any sort of cane and learn an fma or any weapon style. The basics (which should be enough for most self defense) can be transferred from one weapon to another if their similar enough.
EDIT: Just saw the part about "inability to bear weight or pivot on one leg has impacted my empty handed skills"..Not sure how well those systems will work out for you, but you can look into systems like iklawson suggested. If not, you can always just find a weapon system, and talk to the instructor about your issue, s/he may be able to help you out either by teaching you things you can use or by directing you to someone who can.


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## Drasken (Feb 22, 2013)

I personally carry a shillelagh everywhere I go. It is durable and has been used to great effect, but they are generally expensive. And  system associated with it is much like fencing with it's footwork. As stated earlier, stick fighting systems usually assume the cane isn't needed to walk.
I'm sure that there are systems out there that are specifically for those with the actual need for a cane, and it's worth mentioning that the systems that aren't could probably be adapted easily.

Now, I don't know the quality... But Cold Steel has a polypropeline set of canes and shillelaghs that look tough and are rather cheap, but once again I haven't personally handled one. I know their knives are good and their swords leave much to be desired so I would do some research first, but it may be a viable option.

I hope this helps some. Good luck to you mate, let me know how your search for a cane goes.


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## lklawson (Feb 22, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> Well, if you want to be fancy, get a shillelagh and learn bataireacht, or if that's unavailable, use any sort of cane and learn an fma or any weapon style. The basics (which should be enough for most self defense) can be transferred from one weapon to another if their similar enough.
> EDIT: Just saw the part about "inability to bear weight or pivot on one leg has impacted my empty handed skills"..Not sure how well those systems will work out for you


Depending on who you go to, must bata styles seem to have a very boxing-ish movement base.  Doyle's has more of a Kung Fu-like movement base.  Most boxing-ish movement systems require good mobility, even if usually in short steps.  It's not impossible to adapt them to a limited mobility situation but that's not how boxing starts.

Over the years, I've found some "fun" ways to illustrate to folk what it's like to have a limited mobility or injured leg.  Take a put a medium pebble in the shoe of whatever foot you want to be "lame" for practice.  You can also hobble your own legs together or hobble one leg to a fixed point.  If you really want to get into it, you can tie one leg folded up.  Better have good ukemi if you try that.

I'll tell ya one thing, when I busted my foot I was sure glad that I'd spend a little time trying to figure out limited mobility movement.  But, even then, the cane wasn't a weapon unless I could be perfectly immobile or grabbed on to a door post or shelf or something.  It's a real challenge.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Instructor (Feb 22, 2013)

Some of our stuff works unsupported and some doesn't.  It's an interesting paradox, cane techniques that won't work for somebody who medically needs the cane to begin with.

I think a lot of our stuff is fairly friendly to people with disabilities.


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## chinto (Feb 22, 2013)

Also look into some of the Western Martial arts. In Portland there is for interest an instructor who teaches midievel type western Martial arts unarmed and weapons. The Cane system he teaches is from the lat 1800's mixed with some from well back and is aimed at people who need the cane to walk ...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 22, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Depending on who you go to, must bata styles seem to have a very boxing-ish movement base.  Doyle's has more of a Kung Fu-like movement base.  Most boxing-ish movement systems require good mobility, even if usually in short steps.  It's not impossible to adapt them to a limited mobility situation but that's not how boxing starts.
> 
> Over the years, I've found some "fun" ways to illustrate to folk what it's like to have a limited mobility or injured leg.  Take a put a medium pebble in the shoe of whatever foot you want to be "lame" for practice.  You can also hobble your own legs together or hobble one leg to a fixed point.  If you really want to get into it, you can tie one leg folded up.  Better have good ukemi if you try that.
> 
> ...


The style im familiar with (not practice, just familiar with) is Doyle's, and he seems to me like he would be able to adapt his style for limited mobility. Not sure about the other style's so I'll have to take your word for it and take back that suggestion.


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## Mayhem 1906 (Feb 22, 2013)

Thank you all for your informative responses. I guess it's just ignorance on my part, but it hasn't occurred to me that most cane systems were predicated on the belief that you didn't actually need a cane for disabilities. In my case, I have lost most of my quadriceps and have pins inserted in my bones, so when I'm not using the cane, I'm bearing weight on one leg, and more or less stationary. I have experience with jo and katana from aikido, and both are a major challenge. I will definitely look into your suggestions, and appreciate any other wisdom.


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## Drasken (Feb 22, 2013)

Mayhem 1906 said:


> Thank you all for your informative responses. I guess it's just ignorance on my part, but it hasn't occurred to me that most cane systems were predicated on the belief that you didn't actually need a cane for disabilities. In my case, I have lost most of my quadriceps and have pins inserted in my bones, so when I'm not using the cane, I'm bearing weight on one leg, and more or less stationary. I have experience with jo and katana from aikido, and both are a major challenge. I will definitely look into your suggestions, and appreciate any other wisdom.



I'm sorry to hear that you have had this injury. But don't lose heart, one of the students at my Aikido dojo was hit by a train in his car, had to be put back together with pins in most of his body. Eventually he adapted and even continued his martial arts. I could see it was painful and frustrating at first, but dedication pays off.
I'm sure you can find and/or adapt stickfighting systems to suit your needs. Just don't give up and know that information is always here when you need it. Look around as well for support groups, I know the student I mentioned earlier found a group in his area that was for disabled martial artists and athletes in general. He found a LOT of info through them.


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## arnisador (Feb 23, 2013)

I got a blackthorn shillelagh when I had my ACL done and that is a nice piece of wood.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 25, 2013)

Mayhem 1906 said:


> Thank you all for your informative responses. I guess it's just ignorance on my part, *but it hasn't occurred to me that most cane systems were predicated on the belief that you didn't actually need a cane for disabilities.* In my case, I have lost most of my quadriceps and have pins inserted in my bones, so when I'm not using the cane, I'm bearing weight on one leg, and more or less stationary. I have experience with jo and katana from aikido, and both are a major challenge. I will definitely look into your suggestions, and appreciate any other wisdom.


The impetus of systems that are based on the user having full mobility is the same impetus that prompted men to utilize readily available wooden implements in order to overcome enemies.  The length and name of the implement in question will vary depending upon the culture.

Modern use of canes for self defense is driven partly by the fact that canes do not illicit undue attention; a cane of less than three and a half feet in length is unlikely to be seen as a weapon by most, whereas a knife with a ten inch blade tends to make people nervous.  Also, canes came into vogue for the purpose of dispaching ruffians in the ninteenth century as swords were being worn less as part of daily dress.  In Ireland, the blackthorn cane came into vogue due to the English outlawing the shillelagh, which was substantially longer.

Given what you say about your disability, you would need to utilize techniques that can not only be performed while stationary, but which also do not require the use of both legs for leverage or power generation; I have seen some cane techniques that do not involve a lot of movement but which would be fairly difficult for someone with true mobility problems (such as various grapples or hooking the assailant's leg and pulling it out from under him).

The questions that I have for you are:

Can you walk or take small steps at all without the cane?  
Can you use your off leg to ballance well without the cane?
If you can ballance well on your good leg, can you use the off leg for any degree of support?

Every weapon system that I have seen or trained in emphasises footwork.  If you cannot advance or retreat at all while under pressure, few if any are going to be useful.

Based on what you have said thus far, I recommend as follows:

Use a cane that you can manipulate well in one hand and which is light enough to use without pulling yourself off ballance.  It needs to be ballanced well so that you can get a lot of return from small movements of the arm and wrist.  It should also be sturdy enough to support your weight, as that will be its main function.  

As I have no mobility problems myself, take my recommendations as you will.  I have practiced kendo for nearly a decade and have fenced for many years.  I also practice hapkido, which does make use of the cane.  My recommendations come based on what I think I could reasonably do without the use of one leg and with an eye towards keeping one hand free for either ballance or support.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 26, 2013)

Mayhem 1906 said:


> Thank you all for your informative responses. I guess it's just ignorance on my part, but it hasn't occurred to me that most cane systems were predicated on the belief that you didn't actually need a cane for disabilities. In my case, I have lost most of my quadriceps and have pins inserted in my bones, so when I'm not using the cane, I'm bearing weight on one leg, and more or less stationary. I have experience with jo and katana from aikido, and both are a major challenge. I will definitely look into your suggestions, and appreciate any other wisdom.



If you still have access to your Aikido school, you might check with your teacher.  I think Aikido, and most other arts like Kuk Sool Won and Hapkido, don't usually teach cane use until after 1st or 2nd dan.  In your case, they would probably be willing to make an exception.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2013)

oftheherd1 said:


> If you still have access to your Aikido school, you might check with your teacher.  I think Aikido, and most other arts like Kuk Sool Won and Hapkido, don't usually teach cane use until after 1st or 2nd dan.  In your case, they would probably be willing to make an exception.


I don't know what Aikido cane is like, and I have never looked at KSW, but nothing that I have seen in hapkido cane technique would be well suited to anyone who actually uses a cane for mobility purposes.


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 26, 2013)

I trained with the Hapkido Cane and I believe most of the techniques would be hard for someone with limited mobility. Thats why we added a few to our curricullum. It is a definite need .


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't know what Aikido cane is like, and I have never looked at KSW, but nothing that I have seen in hapkido cane technique would be well suited to anyone who actually uses a cane for mobility purposes.



Since I haven't learned any cane techniques as such, I can't agree or disagree (but I trust your knowledge).  However, there are adaptations of short stick which I think would be useful to a person such as the OP.  Some of them don't require a lot of mobility.


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## Mayhem 1906 (Mar 11, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The questions that I have for you are:
> 
> Can you walk or take small steps at all without the cane?
> Can you use your off leg to ballance well without the cane?
> If you can ballance well on your good leg, can you use the off leg for any degree of support?



I can take small steps unassisted, with substantial difficulty.
I cannot balance well on my bad leg at all.  for example, I cant kick with my good leg
I can use the bad leg for balance while standing on my goodleg.  kinda like the kickstand on a bike

the hardest thing is that I cant pivot on the bad leg.  for example when using jo, I can pivot off the good leg, and use the bad one to arrest the movement, but not vice versa.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 12, 2013)

Mayhem 1906 said:


> I can take small steps unassisted, with substantial difficulty.
> I cannot balance well on my bad leg at all. for example, I cant kick with my good leg
> I can use the bad leg for balance while standing on my goodleg. kinda like the kickstand on a bike
> 
> the hardest thing is that I cant pivot on the bad leg. for example when using jo, I can pivot off the good leg, and use the bad one to arrest the movement, but not vice versa.



Since your first post have you talked to any teachers in your area and discussed your needs and abilities?  If not, what is the reason?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 12, 2013)

Mayhem 1906 said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > The questions that I have for you are:
> ...


Unfortunately, that probably will eliminate virtually every cane system that I have seen.  While I have looked at none of them in depth, every one that I have looked at demonstrates techniques with very mobile and physically fit people.  

I refer back to my previous statement:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Based on what you have said thus far, I recommend as follows:
> 
> Use a cane that you can manipulate well in one hand and which is light enough to use without pulling yourself off ballance.  It needs to be balanced well so that you can get a lot of return from small movements of the arm and wrist.  It should also be sturdy enough to support your weight, as that will be its main function.


Striking techniques will be more viable than exaggerated pushes, pulls, or the fairly sophisticated grapples that I have seen in some systems.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Unfortunately, that probably will eliminate virtually every cane system that I have seen. While I have looked at none of them in depth, every one that I have looked at demonstrates techniques with very mobile and physically fit people.
> 
> I refer back to my previous statement:
> 
> ...



I agree that many Hapkido short stick techniques require good foot and hand coordination.  And using a cane requires practice to decide if you will use the bottom of the cane or the top, or which you would have to use to prevent part of the cane getting in the way.

However, a google of "hapkido short stick techniques" brought up this; 



 which I think the OP could adapt to use with a cane and the use he says he has of his weak leg.  I believe there are others as well.

But again, that is why it is recommended that you talk to Aikido or Hapkido teachers in your area to see if they know how, and are willing to teach you around your disability.


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2013)

Mayhem 1906 said:


> I can take small steps unassisted, with substantial difficulty.
> I cannot balance well on my bad leg at all.  for example, I cant kick with my good leg
> I can use the bad leg for balance while standing on my goodleg.  kinda like the kickstand on a bike
> 
> the hardest thing is that I cant pivot on the bad leg.  for example when using jo, I can pivot off the good leg, and use the bad one to arrest the movement, but not vice versa.



Here's some clips of Carlito Bonjoc, a Serrada Eskrima/Cadiz LapuLapu Master. He impresses the hell out of me. It sounds like you have more mobility than him. 

This clip is from a few years back, when he could still stand for short periods:






Here's a more recent clip:






Find the right teacher and you can definitely make it work. Good luck in your journey!


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## Skpotamus (Mar 22, 2013)

I have no first hand experience with these people, but I was told of them by a friend that requires a cane to walk.  Supposedly, their system is designed for the elderly and disabled.  They also make a lot of canes themselves, tell you how to size them properly and will make them to fit you.  Not too bad a price on them either.  

http://www.canemasters.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=51


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 22, 2013)

Skpotamus said:


> I have no first hand experience with these people, but I was told of them by a friend that requires a cane to walk.  Supposedly, their system is designed for the elderly and disabled.  They also make a lot of canes themselves, tell you how to size them properly and will make them to fit you.  Not too bad a price on them either.
> 
> http://www.canemasters.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=51


I'll have to take a look at it.  So far, all of the pictures that I have seen of canemasters material feature people who do not seem to have mobility problems doing things than anyone with mobility problems would have trouble doing.


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2013)

You know, what we have here is a niche that could be filled by an enterprising and yet completely experienced person.  Any cane fighters out there with a couple of decades under your belt and a bum knee?


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## Skpotamus (Mar 22, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'll have to take a look at it. So far, all of the pictures that I have seen of canemasters material feature people who do not seem to have mobility problems doing things than anyone with mobility problems would have trouble doing.



Like I said, no experience, but they do list their products being for elderly and disable people.  I know at least one of the books and DVD's listed techniques done from sitting, so mobility shouldn't be an issue for those techs.


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