# Practical Hapkido



## Pentti

This Hapkido is from Finland. 
Some of the green belt techniques.


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## Pentti

Techniques concerning first two belts in yellow and orange.


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## Raymond

Based on your avatar, I assume you are a member of the group in the videos.  So I mean no disrespect by this, but my personal opinion is that most of what I saw was not Hapkido.

Hapkido is the art of Choi Yong Sul.  Which in turn was his interpretation of martial practices he studied during his life.  Jabs, crosses, hooks, and such with gloves/shin guards were not part of Choi's practice.  It's fine if we do those things, cross train, work with people from other arts etc but those things are their own things with their own names, but I wouldn't say Hapkido.  

I am glad you guys are trying to develop yourselves as martial artists and improve your own methods and ideas, and wish you best of luck otherwise!


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## Gerry Seymour

Raymond said:


> Based on your avatar, I assume you are a member of the group in the videos.  So I mean no disrespect by this, but my personal opinion is that most of what I saw was not Hapkido.
> 
> Hapkido is the art of Choi Yong Sul.  Which in turn was his interpretation of martial practices he studied during his life.  Jabs, crosses, hooks, and such with gloves/shin guards were not part of Choi's practice.  It's fine if we do those things, cross train, work with people from other arts etc but those things are their own things with their own names, but I wouldn't say Hapkido.
> 
> I am glad you guys are trying to develop yourselves as martial artists and improve your own methods and ideas, and wish you best of luck otherwise!


I don't see variations like that as changing the core of an art. If that's all that's different, it's a variation of Hapkido. The same basic principles are used, and they've introduced some new material. I don't think an art should stay static at the point the founder left it - most of them weren't "done" with what they wanted to develop in the art, anyway.


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## Raymond

gpseymour said:


> I don't see variations like that as changing the core of an art. If that's all that's different, it's a variation of Hapkido. The same basic principles are used, and they've introduced some new material. I don't think an art should stay static at the point the founder left it - most of them weren't "done" with what they wanted to develop in the art, anyway.



I personally disagree.  If I add double leg take downs to boxing, I'm no longer practicing boxing; boxing is the art of fighting with the hands and I am no longer "doing boxing".  I'm doing something different.  This different thing isn't any better or worse than boxing, it's just now it's "own thing".  But telling you "well it's just practical boxing" wouldn't be accurate.


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## Buka

Welcome to MartialTalk, Pentti. 

Nice job on the videos. You look good in the white.


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## Gerry Seymour

Raymond said:


> I personally disagree.  If I add double leg take downs to boxing, I'm no longer practicing boxing; boxing is the art of fighting with the hands and I am no longer "doing boxing".  I'm doing something different.  This different thing isn't any better or worse than boxing, it's just now it's "own thing".  But telling you "well it's just practical boxing" wouldn't be accurate.


Boxing originally included grappling work (some of the folks here are well-versed in the history). Is it no longer boxing, since it lost that? Or would adding some back in would make it no longer boxing?

There are many techniques in BJJ that weren't part of Helio Gracie's teaching - they were evolved into the art over time by practitioners. Is BJJ no longer BJJ?

You could say the modified version is no longer the Hapkido the founder created, but I suspect the art changed quite a bit during his lifetime, so you'd have to decide which version of what he did is the standard to compare others' Hapkido to.


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## drop bear

Raymond said:


> I personally disagree.  If I add double leg take downs to boxing, I'm no longer practicing boxing; boxing is the art of fighting with the hands and I am no longer "doing boxing".  I'm doing something different.  This different thing isn't any better or worse than boxing, it's just now it's "own thing".  But telling you "well it's just practical boxing" wouldn't be accurate.



Boxing with double leg takedowns would be boxing done better.

So better Hapkido? Might be more accurate


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## Pentti

Mr Raymond

Modern boxing and old boxing are different. Modern boxing is not original boxing but it's boxing. It is born of old boxing.

 In the traditional style of boxing, they didn't use boxing gloves so the punching thrust technique was totally different.


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## skribs

I already thought hapkido was a practical art.  Calling this "practical hapkido" is just a bit pretentious to me.

It would be like saying "sport MMA".


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## Gerry Seymour

skribs said:


> I already thought hapkido was a practical art.  Calling this "practical hapkido" is just a bit pretentious to me.
> 
> It would be like saying "sport MMA".


"Practical" is the new "Tactical". It's marketing language.


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## skribs

Malos1979 said:


> Who cares what they added? They are evolving, it's better than standing still.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Is this the best you can do to nitpick? Come on.......
> 
> 
> @Pentti cool video's, it's good to see people adjusting their traditional art and evolving rather than sticking in the past, like gpsseymour said.



Not the best I can do. Just low hanging fruit.


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## skribs

skribs said:


> Not the best I can do. Just low hanging fruit.



Let me rephrase.  Calling this "practical" implies that other hapkido is not practical.  Which, since hapkido doesn't seem to have an art or sport component, and is in fact purely self defense techniques, means that Hapkido is practical.

To call a school "practical Hapkido" means you think that other Hapkido is not practical, which is either an insult (saying the only thing it does, it doesn't even do) or shows a lack of understanding of Hapkido.


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## 666

That's choreographed, anybody can make this look effective.
(Nothing against Hapkido itself)


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## Dirty Dog

skribs said:


> Let me rephrase.  Calling this "practical" implies that other hapkido is not practical.  Which, since hapkido doesn't seem to have an art or sport component, and is in fact purely self defense techniques, means that Hapkido is practical.
> 
> To call a school "practical Hapkido" means you think that other Hapkido is not practical, which is either an insult (saying the only thing it does, it doesn't even do) or shows a lack of understanding of Hapkido.



Well, no, maybe all it means is that they're playing the name game for advertising. Adding "practical" or "tactical" to the name of your training makes it sound so much more DEADLY and DEVASTATING and THE SECRET TECHNIQUES THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW to the average, untrained, doesn't know anything about MA except what they see in the movies reader.


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## Dirty Dog

Malos1979 said:


> We haven't seen any "practical" clips from you so..........



You've seen everything I've posted over the 8 or 9 years I've been posting here? Bored much? I mean, I think I'm reasonably interesting, but not THAT interesting. Seems sort of stalker-ish behavior....



> maybe you should show your "deadly" techniques, againts tiles? Like you avatar LOL



Those aren't tiles. They're 8x16x2" concrete pavers. If you're going to be snide, at least be accurate.



> Again, OP, Keep up the good work and don't let these jealous....so called "practical" people get to you



Did I say anything negative about their system? I don't think I did. I said they're engaging in advertising hype. Which is exactly what they're doing. Because commercial enterprise, and all that.


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## Dirty Dog

Malos1979 said:


> No not staker-ish, I'm just stating facts that I haven't seen any clips from you, and that I doubt they would be more "practical" then the OP posted



Probably not. But no less, either. You may not have noticed in your rabid desire to sling innuendo, but I never said anything whatsoever about the practicality of their techniques. Nor am I going to. As it happens, I consider Hapkido (by whatever creative name is applied) to be an eminently practical art in most respects. It's not perfect, and it does have weaknesses, but that's true of every system. And every practitioner.



> Ok maybe concrete, but do they hit back......



Actually, yes. Try a break and fail, and you'll find that the rebound of energy hits back plenty hard. Harder than a punching bag, certainly. Do you use a bag in your training, or do you only ever strike living opponents who are striking back? But of course, what you're really saying here is that you don't understand the reasons why breaking may be considered a useful training tool.



> They just named their school "Practical Hapkido" who are you to judge what their motives are?



Gosh, if nobody (other than you, of course) is allowed to have an opinion or offer a possibility for consideration, this is going to be a pretty boring place.


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## Dirty Dog

Malos1979 said:


> I did some breaking in past don't worry, but soon I found out that breaking stuff is ********.
> 
> Now that's out of the way, maybe next time you should consider starting with the bold part in the quote rather than whining about a name......???



What whining? Can you please show me exactly what I've written that can reasonably be considered whining?
I actually thought what I wrote was perfectly clear. And, in fact, you seem to be the only person who had any difficulty understanding it. I apologize. I'll try not to confuse you in the future.


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> We haven't seen any "practical" clips from you so..........maybe you should show your "deadly" techniques, againts tiles? Like you avatar LOL
> 
> 
> Again, OP, Keep up the good work and don't let these jealous....so called "practical" people get to you


Why break out the "you must be jealous" card?


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> No not staker-ish, I'm just stating facts that I haven't seen any clips from you, and that I doubt they would be more "practical" then the OP posted
> 
> Ok maybe concrete, but do they hit back......
> 
> They just named their school "Practical Hapkido" who are you to judge what their motives are?


He said the same thing I did. "Practical" is marketing language. Neither of us said there was anything wrong with using it. Schools need students - commercial ones more so than non-commercial, but any program needs students to continue being a program.

You're projecting an animosity onto his posts that I don't see in them.


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## Dirty Dog

Malos1979 said:


> Well he was pretty cynical about it and was almost trolling the OP about his "deadly" art.



Actually, I was spoofing the advertising techniques seen in many MA ads back in the 70's and 80's.
Again, I apologize for the apparent confusion you've suffered.


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## Dirty Dog

Malos1979 said:


> Keep breaking those bricks.......it seems to do you good....



Oh, it does. I don't expect you to understand why.


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> Well he was pretty cynical about it and was almost trolling the OP about his "deadly" art.
> 
> I see that you like to befriend the staff here Seymour, keep going your on the right track.


You're being snitty this morning. Have some more coffee or something. Nobody is attacking you, and you seem to be attacking everyone around.

As for befriending, I befriend those who seem pleasant to hang around. Some are staff (I'm guessing that's how they got there). Some are not. Some I even argue with, but actually like rather a lot (especially if they have a sick gi). I'm not sure what my taste in people has to do with you lashing out at people making fairly level observations about the use of the term "practical".


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> You keep saying I'm confused but I'm really not. You might confused be about the attitude you give on these boards as a *staffmember*. People are telling me things in private messages about your behaviour......
> 
> Think about it....
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should ask some lessons from the Practical Hapkido guys, then you learn some skills.


Actually, I think you are confused. He wasn't attacking the use of the word, though you clearly think he was.


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> I'm not attacking anyone, just stating facts that @Dirty Dog is a trolling staffmember. I'm not the only person that thinks this....
> 
> Those guys shared some information about the system they teach, then maybe instead of bitching about a name, like skribbs did and our beloved staffmember did, give them some proper feedback on their techniques.


Not attacking? You're attempting to make fun of part of his practice, telling him he needs lessons from the OP, and saying he's trolling (when he isn't). That's pretty clearly attacking.

As for Skribbs, I actually disagree with him on his post here, but not vehemently. And I didn't bother to get snitty and bitchy about it.


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> Oufcourse you do......


Oh, and the "you disliked my post, so I'm going to dislike yours" is pretty childish, too. Your entire tone this morning is pretty shallow.


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> It's not attacking, it's giving someone some proper *advice*.




Advice is best given in a helpful tone, and based upon some evidence. Yours lacks both.


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> Shallow is the word I always think of when I see your picture, what a coincidence.


That makes at least your 4th _ad hominem_ attack this morning. Do you really think that has any meaning to it? What purpose did you intend a comment about a marketing picture to serve?


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> You lack skill so then we both lack something


And you base that _ad hominem _attack on exactly what?


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## oftheherd1

Malos1979 said:


> No not staker-ish, I'm just stating facts that I haven't seen any clips from you, and that I doubt they would be more "practical" then the OP posted
> 
> Ok maybe concrete, but do they hit back......
> 
> They just named their school "Practical Hapkido" who are you to judge what their motives are?



Just wanted to clarify my rating your above post as informative.  I did so because I think it informs me about something about you that I think is not useful.  Same with some of answers to gpseymour.  That is only my opinion of course, you or anyone else is free to disagree with reasons or not.


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## oftheherd1

Malos1979 said:


> You keep saying I'm confused but I'm really not. You might confused be about the attitude you give on these boards as a staffmember. *People are telling me things in private messages about your behaviour......*
> 
> Think about it....
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should ask some lessons from the Practical Hapkido guys, then you learn some skills.



The above is so weak.  Is it the best you can do?  Why not try to be constructive in a polite manner.  Were you ever taught that?  Or could you just not find a way to make that work?


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## skribs

Malos1979 said:


> Maybe you should stop bitching....it doesn't really suit you.
> 
> I'm sure you are the only one that feels like this.
> 
> Again, OP, nice video's and keep improving your practical system of Hapkido



How can you be sure I'm the only one that feels like this?

At that, even if I'm the only one that feels like this, does it invalidate my feelings?  Are my feelings predicated on what everyone else thinks I should feel?

Who are you to tell me the worth of my feelings?


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## Gerry Seymour

Malos1979 said:


> Since when should I care about a rating?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you hack my messages? Staff could you check his account he might be a hacker.
> 
> Time to train, I would recommend you the same....constructive right....


What, precisely, has you deciding some hacking is going on? You're all over the place today.


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## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> What, precisely, has you deciding some hacking is going on? You're all over the place today.



Yep, I know I am done posting with him.  

It's like feeding a stray cat; it keeps coming back begging for more, buy will bite you if you try to help it otherwise.


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## Buka

There goes a man Will Rogers never met.


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## oftheherd1

Buka said:


> There goes a man Will Rogers never met.



You and I must be about the same age.  I wouldn't expect most people these days to know who Will Rogers was.  And you are right on.


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## skribs

oftheherd1 said:


> You and I must be about the same age.  I wouldn't expect most people these days to know who Will Rogers was.  And you are right on.



I am not the same age as you guys.

Who is Will Rogers?


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## Buka

He's an old time cowboy/Cherokee humorist and actor. Well known for the line -
_
"I joked about every prominent man of my time, but I never met a man I didn't like."_


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## Gerry Seymour

skribs said:


> I am not the same age as you guys.
> 
> Who is Will Rogers?


Hey, don't lump all us together. Buka's a grumpy old man. I'm just a grumpy middle-aged man.


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## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> Hey, don't lump all us together. Buka's a grumpy old man. I'm just a grumpy middle-aged man.



Who said Buka and I are old?  I just said we must be about the same age.  BTW young'un, is Methuselah still posting here at MT?


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## Pentti

Respect for a name of an art means respect for the art


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## Gerry Seymour

Pentti said:


> Respect for a name of an art means respect for the art


I'm not so sure of that, nor of the converse. A name is nothing but some words. If someone doesn't like the name, they might still quite like and respect the value of the art, itself.


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## Dirty Dog

Pentti said:


> Respect for a name of an art means respect for the art



Not really. There are plenty of things I can respect, that have stupid names. 
And plenty of things with awesome names that are complete rubbish. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pentti

After talking


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## Tez3

While some are arguing over the word 'practical' did it occur to anyone that the video is from Finland? The wording on the video is in English therefore a translation which may be close to the Finnish word for whatever they call what they are doing. We all know that not everything translates from one language easily to another so we use the best word we know.
Rather than bicker over the word why not congratulate people who have kindly put a translation on for those who do not speak Finnish, a notoriously hard language to learn.

Not a pleasant welcome for someone who has put his training videos up for people to comment on and gets picked up for using words English speakers don't approve of. So who here speaks Finnish so they can apologise for arrogance in the gentleman's own language?

Tervetuloa martialtalk, pahoittelen idiootteja täällä.


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## skribs

Tez3 said:


> While some are arguing over the word 'practical' did it occur to anyone that the video is from Finland? The wording on the video is in English therefore a translation which may be close to the Finnish word for whatever they call what they are doing. We all know that not everything translates from one language easily to another so we use the best word we know.
> Rather than bicker over the word why not congratulate people who have kindly put a translation on for those who do not speak Finnish, a notoriously hard language to learn.
> 
> Not a pleasant welcome for someone who has put his training videos up for people to comment on and gets picked up for using words English speakers don't approve of. So who here speaks Finnish so they can apologise for arrogance in the gentleman's own language?
> 
> Tervetuloa martialtalk, pahoittelen idiootteja täällä.



I'll be honest, I didn't watch the videos until after I read the post.  I simply reacted to the title.  The OP's logo was in English so I had no reason to assume it wasn't the language of the school.


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## Tez3

skribs said:


> I'll be honest, I didn't watch the videos until after I read the post.  I simply reacted to the title.  The OP's logo was in English so I had no reason to assume it wasn't the language of the school.



First written line of the post before you got to the video link "This Hapkido is from Finland' so if you read the post before you watched the video.........................


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## skribs

Tez3 said:


> First written line of the post before you got to the video link "This Hapkido is from Finland' so if you read the post before you watched the video.........................



So people from Finland can't speak English?  I said it appeared to be the language of the school.


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## oftheherd1

skribs said:


> So people from Finland can't speak English?  I said it appeared to be the language of the school.



Ah!  Come on, give it up.  You, as anyone, is entitled to your opinion.  But your comment about "practical" was rather nitpicky don't you think.

Now if you saw great problems in technique that you could articulate, that would be worth commenting on.


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## skribs

oftheherd1 said:


> Ah!  Come on, give it up.  You, as anyone, is entitled to your opinion.  But your comment about "practical" was rather nitpicky don't you think.
> 
> Now if you saw great problems in technique that you could articulate, that would be worth commenting on.



No, I don't think it was nitpicky.  If I started a forum and called it "Smart Forum" it would imply that other forums are dumb, or the people on them are dumb.  If I started a store called Low Price Groceries, it would imply that we have lower prices than other grocery stores.  To say "practical hapkido" is to say that other hapkido is not practical.  Which either means you're insulting the other hapkido schools by saying they fail at the one thing hapkido does, or you just don't understand what hapkido is.


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## Tez3

For crying out loud, what do you think it says about this site when people are arguing over what they think the word practical means. 
I read practical Hapkido and didn't assume anything at all about, it's not insulting unless you are determined to be insulted.

Yes, a lot of people in Scandinavian speak English, in fact most of Europe speaks English as a second/third/fourth language, it's a pity that native speakers of American English  can't actually understand what the words 'polite' and 'welcoming' mean.

If the OP doesn't come back I can entirely understand, I can also understand if he thinks there's too many pillocks  who would probably shout the English words at him very slowly if they were talking in person to him.


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## Tez3

Pentti said:


> This Hapkido is from Finland.




For the person who disagreed that the line was there.



skribs said:


> No, I don't think it was nitpicky.  If I started a forum and called it "Smart Forum" it would imply that other forums are dumb, or the people on them are dumb.  If I started a store called Low Price Groceries, it would imply that we have lower prices than other grocery stores.  To say "practical hapkido" is to say that other hapkido is not practical.  Which either means you're insulting the other hapkido schools by saying they fail at the one thing hapkido does, or you just don't understand what hapkido is.



I think you'd like this site. Post A Moan


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## skribs

Tez3 said:


> For the person who disagreed that the line was there.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'd like this site. Post A Moan



I didn't disagree that the line was there.  I disagreed on your assumptions based on that line being there.  By the way, you know you can tell who agreed and disagreed with your post?  For one, it says in the alert "Skribs disagreed with your post."  For another, you can click "list" next to where it says "disagree" on your post, and it will list the users who disagreed with it.

Or did you know that and you were passive-aggressively targeting me?


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## oftheherd1

skribs said:


> No, I don't think it was nitpicky.  If I started a forum and called it "Smart Forum" it would imply that other forums are dumb, or the people on them are dumb.  If I started a store called Low Price Groceries, it would imply that we have lower prices than other grocery stores.  To say "practical hapkido" is to say that other hapkido is not practical.  Which either means you're insulting the other hapkido schools by saying they fail at the one thing hapkido does, or you just don't understand what hapkido is.



When I saw the title Practical Hapkido, I realized it could be misunderstood that way, but I did not think the was the meaning the OP meant.  Because I think Hapkido is indeed a very practical art.  I don't think it is the only one, but if I didn't think it was way up on the scale of practical arts, I wouldn't have stayed with it long enough to be a 2nd Dan.

And after watching the video, I saw some things that were variants of techniques I had learned, that I want to add to my toolbox.  They were 'practical.'

But interesting to know how you think anyway.


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## Tez3

skribs said:


> I didn't disagree that the line was there.  I disagreed on your assumptions based on that line being there.  By the way, you know you can tell who agreed and disagreed with your post?  For one, it says in the alert "Skribs disagreed with your post."  For another, you can click "list" next to where it says "disagree" on your post, and it will list the users who disagreed with it.
> 
> Or did you know that and you were passive-aggressively targeting me?



Oooooo mansplaining! Newbie, guess what, I know already.


Hell, there is never anything passive about me, no one can ever accuse me of that.
Your disagreement is nonsense of course, the line is there you didn't read it and had a wibble.


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## skribs

Tez3 said:


> Oooooo mansplaining! Newbie, guess what, I know already.
> 
> 
> Hell, there is never anything passive about me, no one can ever accuse me of that.
> Your disagreement is nonsense of course, the line is there you didn't read it and had a wibble.



Or, and bear with me here, I read it, and came to the same conclusion I've been parroting in the last several posts!

How am I "mansplaining"?  I thought that was when a man explains something to a woman because they think women are too stupid to understand something, regardless of the woman's knowledge.  Someone who "mansplains" usually bases this on gender, and usually does so without even checking what the woman's knowledge of the subject is.

Are you a woman?  If you are, I didn't know, so the gender component isn't there.

Did I make an assumption?  Yes.  I made the assumption that either you didn't know how to find out who disagreed, or that you were being passive aggressive, because *YOUR POST SUGGESTED YOU DIDN'T KNOW AND THOSE WERE THE ONLY CONCLUSIONS I COULD DRAW FROM IT.
*
Sorry.  I'm not trying to yell.  It's just that you acted like you didn't know something and are now jumping down my throat for explaining it, so I had to make it clear why I was making that assumption.

But, yes.  Keep posting funny pictures and make witty comments about websites I should go to.  That's going to convince me that I'm wrong.


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## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> For crying out loud, what do you think it says about this site when people are arguing over what they think the word practical means.
> I read practical Hapkido and didn't assume anything at all about, it's not insulting unless you are determined to be insulted.
> 
> Yes, a lot of people in Scandinavian speak English, in fact most of Europe speaks English as a second/third/fourth language,* it's a pity that native speakers of American English  can't actually understand what the words 'polite' and 'welcoming' mean.*
> 
> If the OP doesn't come back I can entirely understand, I can also understand if he thinks there's too many pillocks  who would probably shout the English words at him very slowly if they were talking in person to him.



Hey, Tez3, you're painting with a broad brush again.  

I struggle with English these days, but in my life I have learned and spoken 3 different non-English languages.  I knew the words polite and welcome in those languages. 

Actually, the more I think of it, maybe I don't know what those words mean in English.  I have become sort of cantankerous as I have aged.


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## Gerry Seymour

Why must it be “mansplaining”?


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## Martial D

I was wondering why this thread was going south. Then I saw the word mansplaining and saw the show ignored content button.

The usual lol.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Why must it be “mansplaining”?



Because it takes the credibility out of explaining without having to actually adress the point.

So here is a ten part explaination as to why you are full of crap.

I find your argument invalid because you were mansplaining.


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## Hanshi

Coming in late on this thread but can see the varieties of interpretation concerning hapkido.  Anywhere hapkido is practiced in a dojang, it's the instructor who decides, of course, what path it will take.  Some of this is due to the instructor's background and his/her actual strong and weak areas.  

I know some who emphasize throws and others who emphasize kicking & striking.  My background  is varied but hapkido (to me) is more like aikido than kickboxing or judo; "jujitsu" might even be a good analog.  Point is, I never like telling others that they are not practicing "X" but rather "Z".  Hapkido does certainly include kicking and striking but the _soul_ of hapkido is circular movement and the famous locks and projections.  As long as these two technical areas are a part of whatever is being taught, I can accept the changes.


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## Pentti

Training day

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


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## Martial D

Pentti said:


> Training day [video edited out]



I gave you a dislike for almost blowing my speakers with your autoplay video.


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## Pentti

You know the button on which the volume can be adjusted?


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## Gerry Seymour

Pentti said:


> You know the button on which the volume can be adjusted?


The issue is the auto-play. Most video's aren't, so we don't have to worry about whether sound is on when browsing the forum.


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## skribs

Lucky for me the computer I'm on blocked the site so it didn't auto-play.


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## Gerry Seymour

skribs said:


> Lucky for me the computer I'm on blocked the site so it didn't auto-play.


Damnit! I came back here to see what you'd posted, and got the auto-play again! It now feels like a game.


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## skribs

gpseymour said:


> Damnit! I came back here to see what you'd posted, and got the auto-play again! It now feels like a game.



At least we're on the next page now.


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## Pentti

Here's something wrong. I am sorry. I see the video as normal. The moderator can remove this video.


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## oftheherd1

Pentti said:


> Here's something wrong. I am sorry. I see the video as normal. The moderator can remove this video.



I wouldn't give it a second thought.  There was a misunderstanding of your choice of wording.  That can happen between two people speaking their native language to each other, never mind someone who no matter how proficient, is speaking a language that is secondary, and filtered through another language and culture.

Personallly, I thank you  for your showing the video.  I found it interesting.  I hope to see more input from you.


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## pdg

I have to click the video to play it, it's never autoplayed for me...


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## Gerry Seymour

Pentti said:


> Here's something wrong. I am sorry. I see the video as normal. The moderator can remove this video.


It's not really an issue - just something for us to complain about. A first-world problem, at best.


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## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> It's not really an issue - just something for us to complain about. A first-world problem, at best.




Most things on here are first world problems.


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## Pentti

Years old video


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## Pentti

Years old video


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## oftheherd1

Pentti said:


> Years old video



Thanks for posting the two videos above.  I am not crazy about the first knife defense in the 2nd video myself.  I think it may have been in your first series as well?  I learned one similar where we move the left front, grabbing the stabbing arm with both hands at the attaker's wrist, and moving to the right, then step under and bring the knife down into the attackers side.  Less force needed to stop the thrust, and the attacker will try to pull the knife back and pull us where we want to go anyway.

But there are many defenses, and if you learn then correctly, they will probably work since the attacker will not expect them.  I just prefer not to get into a contest of strength and speed with a blade coming towards my stomach.  YMMV.


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## WaterGal

Most knife defense is pretty iffy, IMO. According to a couple of police officers I've talked to, most knife attackers today will come right up next to you, pull the knife out, and make a lot of short shallow stabs very fast. Not big swinging slices from a distance.

These videos do look a lot like what I learned in Hapkido, though.


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## Gerry Seymour

WaterGal said:


> Most knife defense is pretty iffy, IMO. According to a couple of police officers I've talked to, most knife attackers today will come right up next to you, pull the knife out, and make a lot of short shallow stabs very fast. Not big swinging slices from a distance.
> 
> These videos do look a lot like what I learned in Hapkido, though.


Here's my view on that: you learn defenses for things you can defend. There's a reason gun takeaways feature guns held withing grabbing distance and knife defenses feature knife attacks that don't happen by surprise and outside the line of sight. Same for punch defenses - I've never seen someone teach a defense against a punch you didn't see coming.

Now, to the topic of how knives are used, if we review the video evidence, there are actually reasonable examples of knives used that weren't an entirely surprise, covert attack. Often, it's not clear there was a knife at the onset.


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## oftheherd1

WaterGal said:


> Most knife defense is pretty iffy, IMO. According to a couple of police officers I've talked to, most knife attackers today will come right up next to you, pull the knife out, and make a lot of short shallow stabs very fast. Not big swinging slices from a distance.
> 
> These videos do look a lot like what I learned in Hapkido, though.



Well, I haven't spent my life going from one knife attacker to another.  But while I realize the dangers, I like that I know some defenses that might save me from injury or death.  Notice I said might.  An attacker may indeed do what you said, but myself, the closer someone gets to my space, the more I am on alert, especially since you can normally discern aggressiveness in an approach.  Doesn't mean they can't or won't attack me, but I will have a better chance of defending myself.


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## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> *Here's my view on that: you learn defenses for things you can defend.* There's a reason gun takeaways feature guns held withing grabbing distance and knife defenses feature knife attacks that don't happen by surprise and outside the line of sight. Same for punch defenses - I've never seen someone teach a defense against a punch you didn't see coming.
> 
> Now, to the topic of how knives are used, if we review the video evidence, there are actually reasonable examples of knives used that weren't an entirely surprise, covert attack. Often, it's not clear there was a knife at the onset.



*Yep, pretty much this.* 

And it has long been discussed among MAs, how to defend against the sudden unexpected attack.


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## Pentti

Water principle - Joint lock - takedown - joint - ordering- lock -handcuffs


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## drop bear

Pentti said:


> Water principle - Joint lock - takedown - joint - ordering- lock -handcuffs



Want to grind that demo partner up a bit more?


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## Pentti

New video. Some of the blue belt techniques.


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## now disabled

Pentti said:


> New video. Some of the blue belt techniques.



I recognize one of your techniques I'd call it Kotegaeshi


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## oftheherd1

Pentti said:


> New video. Some of the blue belt techniques.



Interesting to see.  In the Hapkido I studied, punch defense was more at the yellow belt level, and kick defense was more at the blue belt level.  Defense against head locks and rear neck chokes was along the way from 1st Dan to 2nd Dan.  Nothing wrong with either approach, just different.  My GM taught that as soon as I saw an arm coming over/around my head towards my neck, I should immediately lower my chin to my chest while a grabbed that attacker's arm at the pressure point between the thumb and first finger, and at the elbow pressure point(s) and lever out to step back and arm lock the opponent holding it with a wrist lock.

For non-Hapkidoists I know that sounds complicated, but it actually flows quite well.


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## oftheherd1

now disabled said:


> I recognize one of your techniques I'd call it Kotegaeshi



Remember, Hapkido traces its roots to Dai Ito Ryu.  You might find many things in it you have practiced under another name.


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## now disabled

oftheherd1 said:


> Remember, Hapkido traces its roots to Dai Ito Ryu.  You might find many things in it you have practiced under another name.



I have not seen a great deal of Hapkido and it was just a thing I saw done slightly differently but none the less as you say same roots


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## Pentti

Practical Hapkido is a modern style. A group of teachers (Hapkido and Taekwondo) developed this style for Hapkido, respecting history that has been influenced greatly.

Original Hapkido is rare today. Most Hapkido schools teach modern Hapkido, even though they claim to be a traditional school.

This video is the original Hapkido:


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## Gerry Seymour

Pentti said:


> Practical Hapkido is a modern style. A group of teachers (Hapkido and Taekwondo) developed this style for Hapkido, respecting history that has been influenced greatly.
> 
> Original Hapkido is rare today. Most Hapkido schools teach modern Hapkido, even though they claim to be a traditional school.
> 
> This video is the original Hapkido:


That brings up a question that's been batted about before: what is "traditional"? Does that mean it's unchanged, or just that it has strong links to the traditions and roots of the art?


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## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> That brings up a question that's been batted about before: what is "traditional"? Does that mean it's unchanged, or just that it has strong links to the traditions and roots of the art?



I don't mean this to speak for @Pentti, but for myself only.

I think as you no doubt know, that traditional is difficult to define: at what point does an art exist, and how much can it deviate from its origin and still claim to be traditional?

In my experience, Hapkido never doubted nor denied that it started from a Korean man who had studied MA in Japan, and returned to Korea after Word War II.  It made some changes, mostly to incorporate a few more kicks, but that seems to have been it.

I don't know how much original Hapkido may have been removed, if any, nor how much TKD has been added.  But it sounds interesting.


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## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't mean this to speak for @Pentti, but for myself only.
> 
> I think as you no doubt know, that traditional is difficult to define: at what point does an art exist, and how much can it deviate from its origin and still claim to be traditional?
> 
> In my experience, Hapkido never doubted nor denied that it started from a Korean man who had studied MA in Japan, and returned to Korea after Word War II.  It made some changes, mostly to incorporate a few more kicks, but that seems to have been it.
> 
> I don't know how much original Hapkido may have been removed, if any, nor how much TKD has been added.  But it sounds interesting.


Yeah, we’re on the same page on that. I just keep hearing discussions of traditional arts - what’s good and bad about them - and I often wonder how much of the chatter is caused by a difference in defining that term. I’m fairly certain most koryu students wouldn’t consider most of my training “traditional”, but most folks I trained with would.


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## Dirty Dog

Pentti said:


> Practical Hapkido is a modern style.




Piffle. Hapkido is a modern style. Full stop.


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## Pentti

The traditional Hapkido (Yong-Sul Kwan and Jungkikwan) is the same as Choi taught. Modern style has added something new and left something out. I do not see any problem here. I hope that all Hapkido styles can live in peace and harmony with each other.


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## oftheherd1

Dirty Dog said:


> Piffle. Hapkido is a modern style. Full stop.



True.  Along with TSK and TKD, and others.  

But I think @Pentti if referring to Practical Hapkido being more modern as opposed to the Hapkido that was worked out by Choi and some of his first students.  Efforts to extend Hapkido's history, in fact other Korean MA don't hold up well.  I say that but really I can only speak to Hapkido as my GM told me.  He said all the old GMs knew that Hapkido came from a Korean man who came back to Korea after WWII.  Admittedly there is controversy about what was brought back to Korea.

To me, the bottom line is that there is a Korean MA called Hapkido, brought to Korea after WWII, and modified slightly. in its beginnings.  I have no doubt the Hapkido I studied, being from the Korean Hapkido Association, is as close to that brought to Korea, as exists today.  But I have no problem with GM who wish to deviate slightly in their Kwan, nor even try to make a better art as apparently has been done with Practical Hapkido.  They seem to make no secret of what they do nor where their techniques come from.   I see no reason to be angry at that.


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## Tony Dismukes

Pentti said:


> The traditional Hapkido (Yong-Sul Kwan and Jungkikwan) is the same as Choi taught. Modern style has added something new and left something out. I do not see any problem here. I hope that all Hapkido styles can live in peace and harmony with each other.


Here we get back to the question of how people define "traditional" and "modern." Choi started teaching in 1948, so the most traditional form of Hapkido is no more than 70 years old. To some, that qualifies as modern.


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## oftheherd1

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here we get back to the question of how people define "traditional" and "modern." Choi started teaching in 1948, so the most traditional form of Hapkido is no more than 70 years old. To some, that qualifies as modern.



I can agree with that, but I don't think it is anything to get out of shape about.  After all, how old is Aikido, TKD or TSD?  I would be more concerned about how good the art is at what it claims to do.


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## oftheherd1

Pentti said:


> The traditional Hapkido (Yong-Sul Kwan and Jungkikwan) is the same as Choi taught. Modern style has added something new and left something out. I do not see any problem here. I hope that all Hapkido styles can live in peace and harmony with each other.



Agreed.  Bot only all Hapkido styles, but all martial art styles.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here we get back to the question of how people define "traditional" and "modern." Choi started teaching in 1948, so the most traditional form of Hapkido is no more than 70 years old. To some, that qualifies as modern.


And leaves us with the question of when we stop using the term "modern" (which originally referred to a specific time period, hence "post-modern" was a useful term at one point) to refer to an art. In Japanese koryu circles, "tradtiional" tends to be used to refer to koryu arts and those that maintain the traditions from koryu (rough working definition). But what about those that maintain traditions from 100 years ago (well after the Meiji restoration)?  If an art has a "reformed" or "updated" branch, "traditional" would seem a reasonable term for a different branch that maintains more of the traditions of the art nearer its point of origin.


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## Dirty Dog

oftheherd1 said:


> I can agree with that, but I don't think it is anything to get out of shape about.  After all, how old is Aikido, TKD or TSD?  I would be more concerned about how good the art is at what it claims to do.



Who's getting bent out of shape?
As to your question, all three of those are modern arts, obviously. They're not much older than I am.


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## now disabled

gpseymour said:


> And leaves us with the question of when we stop using the term "modern" (which originally referred to a specific time period, hence "post-modern" was a useful term at one point) to refer to an art. In Japanese koryu circles, "tradtiional" tends to be used to refer to koryu arts and those that maintain the traditions from koryu (rough working definition). But what about those that maintain traditions from 100 years ago (well after the Meiji restoration)?  If an art has a "reformed" or "updated" branch, "traditional" would seem a reasonable term for a different branch that maintains more of the traditions of the art nearer its point of origin.




You raise a valid point sir as there seems to be a theme that bases what is considered modern on the Japanese idea (ie gendai).

So what the Japanese consider "modern" others may not


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## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> Who's getting bent out of shape?
> As to your question, all three of those are modern arts, obviously. They're not much older than I am.


So, you're saying only REALLY old stuff can be traditional.


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## oftheherd1

Dirty Dog said:


> Who's getting bent out of shape?
> As to your question, all three of those are modern arts, obviously. They're not much older than I am.



Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were getting bent out of shape, you simply pointed out a fact that I agree with.  But some have put forth some strong opinions.  I've noticed you and I never do that.


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## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> So, you're saying only REALLY old stuff can be traditional.



I can't answer for @Dirty Dog but ...

Those arts are younger than me.  How can I call them traditional martial arts?


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## Dirty Dog

gpseymour said:


> So, you're saying only REALLY old stuff can be traditional.



Not really. What I'm saying is that it's sort of silly to say one branch of an art is "traditional" and the other is "modern" when their age difference (not quite an accurate term, but you know what I mean) is like 5 minutes, and the founding of both is within living memory.



oftheherd1 said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were getting bent out of shape, you simply pointed out a fact that I agree with.  But some have put forth some strong opinions.  I've noticed you and I never do that.



Nope. Never.


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## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. What I'm saying is that it's sort of silly to say one branch of an art is "traditional" and the other is "modern" when their age difference (not quite an accurate term, but you know what I mean) is like 5 minutes, and the founding of both is within living memory.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Never.


I was just pokin' at ya, DD. I get your point. Of course, it seemed more solid when I was 20 than it does today. Somewhere along the way, we get old enough that we're part of tradition.


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## Pentti

Well, this is my truth. It's not for everyone yet, but later it's the truth for you all


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## now disabled

Pentti said:


> Well, this is my truth. It's not for everyone yet, but later it's the truth for you all



That is a very profound statement , Hang on to that as if you ever get to the pinnacles of Hapkido that would be a very good quote to use


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## Pentti

Training day


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## oftheherd1

Pentti said:


> Training day



Some interesting moves there.  Thanks for posting.


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## now disabled

oftheherd1 said:


> Some interesting moves there.  Thanks for posting.




I dunno about you but I can well see the influence of Daito ryu in what they are doing ie. the atemi and the directness and the finishing


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## oftheherd1

now disabled said:


> I dunno about you but I can well see the influence of Daito ryu in what they are doing ie. the atemi and the directness and the finishing



I studied Hapkido, not Daito Ryu, so I cannot see its influence.  That's not meant to be snippy, it is just that know little about the Daito Ryu.  But I don't doubt your observation.


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## Pentti

Kicks vs Kicks


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## Pentti

The water is soft and adaptable. It connects dams and streams along the road provided to it. The water adapts
but its unique character never disappears. From here
it would be worthwhile for all mankind to learn.


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## Pentti

Traditional and modern battle together.
New video compilation.


----------

