# Delayed Sword: Technique Discussion



## MJS (Jun 28, 2009)

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Posted these clips, so we could discuss some Kenpo. :ultracool  3 different clips, a number of variations.  This technique is probably one of the most basic, yet there seems to be so many variations.  How do you perform the technique Delayed Sword?  Pros/cons to anything in the above clips?  My intentions are not to bash anyone in the clips.  I'm simply looking to talk about the technique.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 28, 2009)

How can you tell you're in a kenpo school? 

I've been taught the technique from both a punch and a grab. It works well for either attack as wall as others. 

I think most everyone performs the basic sequence of maneubers in it similarly, but differ in thier execution... I think that's what I mean anyway... lol. 


Step back into a right netural bow simultaneously executing a right inward block to attacker's right arm.
Execute a right snap kick to the attacker's groin.
Settle into a right neutral bow executing a right inward sword hand strik to the right side of the attacker's neck. Cover out.
I've seen some variations where the sword hand strike is downward to the attacker's right collar bone. 

It's a great technique to build off of, or insert into other techniques, or graft, or whatever...

You see it everywhere... one of the most obvious places is in another favorite of mine...Five Swords. 

Some principles that come to mind right off the bat are gravitational marriage, torque, back up mass, point of origin, angle of incidence, angle of deflection... can you think of any more?


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## MJS (Jun 29, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> How can you tell you're in a kenpo school?
> 
> I've been taught the technique from both a punch and a grab. It works well for either attack as wall as others.
> 
> ...


 
I too, have been taught this tech for a punch and a lapel grab.  Of course, for a punch, we have this infamous clip.  Of course, while I do see the points that are trying to be made, one can't help but wonder how this would work on someone who is not setting out to intentionally make the tech fail, unless it's done for a grab.  

For the lapel grab, I pretty much do the tech in the fashion that its done in the first clip I posted...without the pin.  Of course, I've heard bad things about not doing the pin.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 30, 2009)

I remember this technique, enjoyed it thoroughly.

As for vid's I felt the 2nd vid was a better demonstration of the technique.
Didn't really care much for the 3rd vid, it was ok but didn't seem the technician had that great of a grasp of the technique. But at this point, I'm not saying I would do any better. lol

But the vid's were pretty good examples at least from my understanding. 

Thanks for the post,


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## Blindside (Jun 30, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> As for vid's I felt the 2nd vid was a better demonstration of the technique.
> Didn't really care much for the 3rd vid, it was ok but didn't seem the technician had that great of a grasp of the technique.



Actually, as an analysis of the technique I thought it (third clip, James Hawkins) was far more in depth and showed a better demonstration of whys he does what he does, far better than the "what to do" of the other clips IMO.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 30, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Actually, as an analysis of the technique I thought it (third clip, James Hawkins) was far more in depth and showed a better demonstration of whys he does what he does, far better than the "what to do" of the other clips IMO.



I agree he did go into further detail, but I didn't really care for his body mechanics when demonstrating. I didn't want to go into detail, but I also understand he obviously wasn't putting his full skill into it either. 

As its just a demo anyways.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Jun 30, 2009)

Tend to emphasize the hammering/pain-inflicting/phsycially destabilising action of the first block these days. Once had some poor uke complain I was blocking too hard, and thereby causing too much pain :uhyeah:

But here's the thing:

My instructor actually had some of our senior belts do the lapel grab and attempt to hit him with the other hand, as someone might well do in a real-world situation. 

When the block was done as an 'oh ****, move back quick and hammer that bloody arm away" type move as opposed to a weak-***, almost circular motion, it destabilised the uke just enough that a) his follow-on punch went wide and missed, or b) his follow-on punch became a relatively power-deficient arm swing.

So that's the way I do it... just saying.

That said, I like all three vids; always been a fan of Casa De Kenpo and Mr Hawkins stuff is just wild!

TCG


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## MJS (Jun 30, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> I remember this technique, enjoyed it thoroughly.
> 
> As for vid's I felt the 2nd vid was a better demonstration of the technique.
> Didn't really care much for the 3rd vid, it was ok but didn't seem the technician had that great of a grasp of the technique. But at this point, I'm not saying I would do any better. lol
> ...


 
James, the guy in the 3rd clip, was showing variations from a number of different groups.  He has quite a few clips on his YT account.  If you havent already, you should check them out.  I think you'd enjoy them.   He's currently, I believe, a 4th in Kenpo, so he's probably been doing Kenpo, give or take, about the same amount of time that I have. 

Glad you enjoyed the clips.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 30, 2009)

MJS said:


> James, the guy in the 3rd clip, was showing variations from a number of different groups.  He has quite a few clips on his YT account.  If you havent already, you should check them out.  I think you'd enjoy them.   He's currently, I believe, a 4th in Kenpo, so he's probably been doing Kenpo, give or take, about the same amount of time that I have.
> 
> Glad you enjoyed the clips.



Will do, thanks for the recommendation.


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## Thesemindz (May 9, 2011)

I know many of you practice this against a right grab to the lapel. I was taught it originally against a right step-through punch to the face, but the school I'm teaching at now teaches this technique against a right step-through push to the sternum. Regardless, I think the motion is instantly recognizable and at least roughly universal to our disparate kenpo styles. Certainly this technique is basic enough that every style everywhere probably has some version of a basic lead side block/lead side counter combination. Here is how I teach this technique.




*DELAYED SWORD*
Attack: Right straight step-through push to the sternum
Direction: 12 oclock
Family of Techniques: Defense on the inside of the attackers body

Step back with the left foot into a right neutral bow stance, stepping out of range of the hand, moving the head first and letting the body fall into the stance. As you land in the stance strike/block the attackers punch with a right inward block (hammering) striking the radial nerve and bring a left position check, palm facing 12, near your lower ribs under your right elbow to cover the lower mid zone.
Execute a right front snap kick with the ball of the foot to the attackers groin causing him to bend forward from the pain.
As you land from the kick with a neutral bow knee check to the opponent's lead leg execute a right outward handsword strike to the right side of the attackers neck, specifically the sternocleidomastoid muscle. 
After you connect with the handsword strike bring the right hand back to its point of origin as an inward block to maintain the higher zone check and guard position.
This is one of the first techniques we teach at our school. When students learn this technique, they have usually only had two or three classes in the school, and this is their first technique that defends against a striking attack. This is also the first time they've kicked an opponent in a technique. When I teach this technique for the first time I begin by teaching it step by step.

Step Back (head moves first)
Right Hand Block (striking the radial nerve)
Position Check (closing open zones)
Front Kick (striking a major target)
Outward Handsword (side of the neck)
Return to Neutral Position (keep your guard up)
Once the students understand the six steps I break it down into three steps.

Step Back/Block/Check
Kick/Chop
Return to Neutral
After that, we practice the technique as a single action in the air several times so that the students can begin to build the basic foundation for the movements. I then demonstrate the technique on the body slowly and at speed so that the students can understand the effect of the technique properly executed. Then I have the students practice the technique several more times in the air while I walk around letting each student practice the technique on me in turn so that I can make sure they have a basic understanding of the pattern and targets involved and so that I can be sure they can execute it safely with a training partner before I turn them loose on each other. I don't mind so much if I get hammered on the arm, kicked in the testicles, and chopped in the throat, but my student's safety is my primary concern. I want to make sure that when they do that to each other they can use control and train safely.


Once they've practiced it around twenty times in the air and several times on me I partner them up so they can practice the technique on the body with a training partner. It is important for them to understand how to properly dummy for the techniques as well, so I discuss that at this time while describing the effect of each of the strikes to their respective targets, as well as the combined effect of the strikes in sequence.

During this time I am pointing out important lessons contained within the technique and discussing them with the students while I demonstrate and they practice repetitions.


Lessons:

Lead Side Block/Counter: This technique teaches a basic lead side block/jab combo with both the hand and the foot which is the simplest counterstrike and the basis for much of the further technique instruction.
Defenses to the Inside of the Body: This technique teaches the student how to defend inside the arms and how to keep the inside position in order to target the centerline.
Distance is Your Best Friend: By stepping further away, even if the attacker manages to strike you, the power of his strike will be greatly diminished because it was aimed at your original position, which you no longer occupy by moving backward (which is basically ghost imaging to be discussed later.) By stepping out of the way, you should not even need to execute the inward block and still be able to not get hit by the attackers punch. When you control range and space you control time. By stepping back, you increase the amount of time before the strike reaches critical range and allow yourself more time to respond.
Marriage of Gravity: Landing with a strike after a kick or other maneuver to add power to a strike by increasing the mass of the weapon by the added mass of the body as the practitioner falls into the strike.
Anatomical Repositioning  Pain Compliance: In this technique the student learns how to affect the position of his attacker by causing specific pains to the attacker which will elicit specific reactions.
Blocks are Strikes: The definition of a block is a maneuver with one part of the body that meets and displaces a weapon through impact force and deflection. The definition of a strike is an impact technique which causes blunt force trauma by moving a weapon through an unoccupied space at velocity until it makes contact with the target. Blocks can also be strikes, and strikes can also be blocks.
Defending Pushes: In this technique we defend the push attack with an evasion and establish a strong base followed by a striking block to the attacking limb.
Simple Combinations: In this technique we use a foot technique to set up a hand technique.
Nerves in the Arm: Brachial Plexus to Ulnar/Radial Nerves.
Kicks to the Groin/Bladder/Hip Girdle: The front kick to the groin in this technique can be used against alternate targets for similar but specifically different effects.
Stun and Run: The two major strikes in this technique _may_ be sufficient to disorient the attacker, at which point the student must decide whether to press or escape.
After another dozen or so repetitions on the body we practice the related drills. Usually the basics involved, especially any _new_ basics, are practiced before we learn the actual technique. Then we take the lessons and patterns of motion involved in the technique and practice those as isolated skills. Once each aspect of the technique has been practiced we return to the technique as a whole and practice it with a partner in a dynamic fashion. 


Related Drills:

Basics Practice: 
Each of the basics in this technique should be practiced separately and in sequence in the air, on the pads and shields, and on the body, both sides. The students should practice stepping back into a strong Neutral Bow, Inward Hammering Blocks, Position Checks, Front Snap Kicks, Outward Handsword Strikes, and landing with a Neutral Bow Knee Check. 
Defending against Straight Pushes:
The students face each other in a fighting stance and practice alternating step through pushes while defending with stepping back and stepping back and blocking. As the students advance in skill, practice against jab and cross pushes. Advanced variations include parrying, blocking and parrying without stepping back, blocking and parrying while stepping in, stepping in without head movement and no block or parry, lateral stepping, and jamming actions. All can also be done sparring style.
Stepping Back from Strikes:
The students partner up and practice stepping back from linear strikes with blocks and evasions line drill style. One student advances with front kicks and straight punches while the defender steps back with foot maneuvers and blocks. When the defender reaches the wall the students switch roles and he advances on his partner with linear strikes, who retreats with foot maneuvers and blocks until he reaches the wall. And so on.
Block/Chop Combinations:
The students should practice the basic block/chop hand combination in the air and on the body. This should be done from static positions (horse stance, fighting stance) and from dynamic positions (sparring style). The students should practice altering the timing of the incoming punches so that the defenders have to maintain the inside position with blocks and checks while taking advantage of opportunities for counterstriking.
Kicking a Moving Opponent:
The students should practice circle walking with a partner hunter/prey style with one student practicing kicks to his partner's groin/bladder/hip girdle. The uki should begin with dummying for the kicks as a simply moving target and then escalate to evasion and defenses against the kicks. At advanced levels the uki feeds a punch technique and the defender blocks the punch and counters with a front kick, which the uki defends and counters with a punch technique. And so on.
Kick/Chop Combination:
The students should practice the basic kick/chop combination on the pads and with a partner. The students should alter their timing and targets with the combination based on their partners reactions to the strikes. This should be practiced static first as a dumb drill, then dynamic as a hunter/prey sparring style activity where one student feeds the kick/chop combination and the other tries to defend. 
As the students progress through their training we constantly return to their previous material for further study and practice. At our school you have comprehensive tests at purple, brown, 1st, 3rd, and 5th black where you are required to perform the entire system up to that point in order to pass, and our students are encouraged to continue practicing their previous lists even when not preparing to test over them. I know that to many of you that sounds obvious, but I also know that in many schools that would be viewed as unnecessary busy work. I constantly drill into my students that all subsequent material is based on previous material. You are only as good as your basics, and that includes your basic techniques. At each higher level of skill, knowledge, and understanding the students are encouraged to explore further dynamic applications of the techniques. In spontaneous self defense, in sparring, against attacks other than it was originally learned for, using the Kenpo Formula, to all directions, as control techniques instead of striking techniques, at varying levels of intensity according to context, against weapons, with weapons in hand, against multiple attackers, and as part of a longer combination of movements.


Other good related drills for this technique are option drills where it is paired up with either another technique, say a punch technique like Attacking Mace or Sword of Destruction, or a kicking technique like Deflecting Hammer. Student A feeds either one attack or the other, and Student B responds with one technique or the other as appropriate. This is a great drill for lots of different techniques and helps the students to identify the differences in the similarities and the similarities in the differences.


That's just one class on one technique. Honestly, I probably wouldn't even hit all of this in one class. I tell my assistant instructors that when they teach a new technique they should try to think of three lessons from the technique to impart, and that they should draw from the patterns of motion, the basics and the targets involved, and the concepts and principles highlighted within the technique. Usually the first time I teach someone Delayed Sword I emphasize Distance is Your Best Friend, Blocks are Strikes, and Stun and Run. That's partly because they are still being introduced to basic self defense concepts at this time in their training. By the time the students leave that class, I would expect them to be able to put together a reasonable, recognizable, execution of Delayed Sword in the air and on the body, with the understanding that they are to practice it at home and in class _from now on_, in order to develop real applicable skill. I wouldn't expect perfection, I've had this technique for fifteen years and I'm still improving, I'd simply expect that they understood enough of the technique to practice it on their own.


Usually this technique is taught as part of a larger class and only a portion of the class is devoted to the technique itself, with the rest focused on whatever basic we're working in the beginner class that week. But if I was going to teach an entire class just on this one technique, It would probably look something like this.


*CLASS --DELAYED SWORD--*
*Warm Up*
Stretch (knees and elbows)
Stepping Back (students practice stepping back into a fighting stance, establishing a base, and guarding/blocking in the air)
Shadowboxing from a Fighting Stance (students practice striking with the lead hand while switching stances and directions)
Basics Practice  Air, Pads, (inward blocks, front kicks, outward handswords)
Basics Practice  Body (inward blocks, front kicks, outward handswords, neutral bow knee checks)
Stepping Back from Strikes  Line Drill (with a partner, linear strikes, step back and block to the wall, alternate)
Kicking a Moving Opponent  Sparring Style (hunter/prey, front kicks to open targets)
*Break*
*Curriculum*
Delayed Sword (distance, blocks are strikes, stun and run)
*Dynamic Drills*
Block/Chop Combination  Partner Drill (pads, against punches from horse stance, dynamic sparring style)
Kick/Chop Combination  Partner Drill (pads, static on the body with a dummy, dynamic as an attack sparring style)
*Spontaneous Activities*
Defending against Straight Pushes (step-through/jab/cross, evade/base/block/counter, dynamic, alternating)
Technique Option Drill (Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction, right push/left punch, defend appropriately, sparring style, alternating)




So that's it. Delayed Sword. At our school it's the fourth technique on the yellow belt list. I teach this technique about every eight weeks or so. How do you guys teach this technique and what lessons do you like to emphasize when you do?




-Rob


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## MJS (May 9, 2011)

Funny you should mention the punch Rob, because that is how I learned it originally as well.  But some claim that you can't do it against a punch.  Theres a youtube clip out there of someone showing why you supposedly can't, but IMO, the student in that clip was being set up for failure.  Thats just my opinion though.


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## Inkspill (May 9, 2011)

it's taught as the first technique at our school. 

against an ATTEMPTED right hand DIRECT lapel grab, we don't wait till they grab us, preferably. I think you could do it against a punch too.

left foot steps back toward 6 into a right neutral bow and arrow stance, WITH a right inward block to their wrist or forearm, below their elbow, above the elbow is too late, left hand moves to check in neutral position at the same time/WITH the block & stance change.

shift the weight back as you transition from a right neutral bow through the right rear bow, right 45 cat, lift the right foot to position 1 for the right front SNAP kick with the ball of the foot to the attacker's groin, snap back to position 3, then execute a right OUTWARD (someone else said inward, but I think it was most likely a typo on their part) handsword strike to the right side of the opponent's neck WITH the drop into the right neutral bow and arrow stance in a marriage with gravity, then right front cross over toward 7:30 into the left rear twist stance, step out to the right neutral bow, then reverse step through (into the left neutral bow). the technique is not finished until the cover out is complete. note, when we first learn this at white belt we don't cover out, that's something we add at our school later down the technique list, I can't remember which specific technique we first begin to do this at though. might be intellectual departure iirc. 

there are many principles and concepts utilized in Delayed Sword, what would appear to be a simple technique contains much depth. the first principle that we learned/was outlined in the technique at the beginning is marriage of gravity, what other principles can you find?


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## ATACX GYM (May 9, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> it's taught as the first technique at our school.
> 
> against an ATTEMPTED right hand DIRECT lapel grab, we don't wait till they grab us, preferably. I think you could do it against a punch too.
> 
> ...


 
I train this technique from 360 degrees,grabs,punches,kicks,vs weapons,the clinch,vertical grappling from the clinch including joint locks,seated position,and each of the ground fighting and ground grappling positions.We practice it from every single block,parry,slip,boxing bobs and weaves,and any combination of the above.We practice it in Rescue and Escape scenarios tof course I requite my students to execute this technique from both sides nonstop in an explosive flow,exactly like I do with all my other techniques like Alternating Maces;we don't just stop on one side or with the groin kick and one sword hand. I'll have my variant of this technique up in about a week or so.


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## Thesemindz (May 9, 2011)

MJS said:


> Funny you should mention the punch Rob, because that is how I learned it originally as well. But some claim that you can't do it against a punch. Theres a youtube clip out there of someone showing why you supposedly can't, but IMO, the student in that clip was being set up for failure. Thats just my opinion though.


 
I don't know. I've trained this technique against punches for fifteen years. It would be hard for someone to convince me at this stage that it doesn't work in that context. But maybe I'm wrong. I know it wouldn't work for _all_ punches, but I also know I've trained it against kicks and sticks and thingamabobs aplenty. 

I guess I see Delayed Sword as an extremely basic fighting concept that can be extrapolated to almost any attack. To me, to say this technique doesn't work is saying that basic stances, blocks, and strikes don't work, in which case the entire foundation that I've built my martial arts training on "doesn't work." Maybe I'm delusional, but it seems to work ok to me.

But maybe that's just me.


-Rob


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## MJS (May 9, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> I don't know. I've trained this technique against punches for fifteen years. It would be hard for someone to convince me at this stage that it doesn't work in that context. But maybe I'm wrong. I know it wouldn't work for _all_ punches, but I also know I've trained it against kicks and sticks and thingamabobs aplenty.
> 
> I guess I see Delayed Sword as an extremely basic fighting concept that can be extrapolated to almost any attack. To me, to say this technique doesn't work is saying that basic stances, blocks, and strikes don't work, in which case the entire foundation that I've built my martial arts training on "doesn't work." Maybe I'm delusional, but it seems to work ok to me.
> 
> ...


 
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Like I said, I learned it as a punch, as well as a grab.  IMHO, there shouldn't be any reason why it can't be done as a punch, but some apparently disagree, such as we see in the clip.


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## Inkspill (May 9, 2011)

ATACX GYM said:


> I train this technique from 360 degrees,grabs,punches,kicks,vs weapons,the clinch,vertical grappling from the clinch including joint locks,seated position,and each of the ground fighting and ground grappling positions.We practice it from every single block,parry,slip,boxing bobs and weaves,and any combination of the above.We practice it in Rescue and Escape scenarios tof course I requite my students to execute this technique from both sides nonstop in an explosive flow,exactly like I do with all my other techniques like Alternating Maces;we don't just stop on one side or with the groin kick and one sword hand. I'll have my variant of this technique up in about a week or so.


 
you have a lot of interesting ways you guys do things I bet it really helps prepare to adapt for all scenarios.

for clarification I would like to ask some questions please. how do you execute the kick from the clinch, or, do you execute a disengaging technique of some sort before moving on to the kick and handsword? example, how do you clear his arms? how do you execute the technique against a club? what do you mean by Rescue and Escape scenarious? I don't want to guess and be wrong, do you mean you are trying to protect someone else from the attack and trying to get away? I know our goal is always to get away, so I'm thinking that Rescue and Escape doesn't mean cover out.

when is it no longer Delayed Sword?


example with a club:
if I were to defend against a club with Delayed Sword, I would step forward instead of back, because if I step back that's a step right into the zone of power on the club swing, I'd rather not have to block at the point in the arc with the most force being delivered.

then, since we're pretty close in, the distance for the kick isn't set up well, so we'd have to modify it, maybe a foot maneuver or perhaps rearrange the technique, or use a different weapon (altering, etc). but if we're close, then there's no need to snap kick the groin (bringing the next target into range), we're already close enough to hit the neck with the handsword. so maybe we step forward and inward block, outward handsword, then draw back to the cat and kick (rearrangement). but then it isn't Delayed Sword, and it's a different lesson.

at some point it stops being a mere altering of weapon or target, and becomes a change of the technique. 

it then stops being delayed sword at that point, and I would be losing the study of the specific lesson intended in delayed sword. and then what's the point? why not just create your own lessons, curriculum, etc?


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## Touch Of Death (May 9, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> you have a lot of interesting ways you guys do things I bet it really helps prepare to adapt for all scenarios.
> 
> for clarification I would like to ask some questions please. how do you execute the kick from the clinch, or, do you execute a disengaging technique of some sort before moving on to the kick and handsword? example, how do you clear his arms? how do you execute the technique against a club? what do you mean by Rescue and Escape scenarious? I don't want to guess and be wrong, do you mean you are trying to protect someone else from the attack and trying to get away? I know our goal is always to get away, so I'm thinking that Rescue and Escape doesn't mean cover out.
> 
> ...


Never assume rescue and escape doesn't mean cover out.
Sean


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## MJS (May 9, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> you have a lot of interesting ways you guys do things I bet it really helps prepare to adapt for all scenarios.
> 
> for clarification I would like to ask some questions please. how do you execute the kick from the clinch, or, do you execute a disengaging technique of some sort before moving on to the kick and handsword? example, how do you clear his arms? how do you execute the technique against a club? what do you mean by Rescue and Escape scenarious? I don't want to guess and be wrong, do you mean you are trying to protect someone else from the attack and trying to get away? I know our goal is always to get away, so I'm thinking that Rescue and Escape doesn't mean cover out.


 
I know this was directed at AG, but since I like to play around with the techs too, I'll offer my .02   From the clinch, I'd say the kick could be replaced with a knee.  You could disengage, depending on what your intentions are.  As for the handsword, depending on range, that could turn into a forearm strike.  Clearing the arms...theres probably a few different things you could do, depending again, on your intent.  Against a club...against a RH club attack, I'd step in, similar to 5 swords.  An overhead attack....thats a bit more tricky IMO, if you wanted to stick with trying to use DS.  



> when is it no longer Delayed Sword?


 
This is probably where I differ from many.  I'm not looking to pull off DS.  If I do, great.  Otherwise, I may use parts of DS, I may mix up the tech.  For example, lets say we do DS against a punch, but instead of a step thru, the attack is a cross.  Stepping back would take us out of range.  I see no reason why we couldnt step as in SF 2.  The block is there, the swordhand is there.  Only thing missing is the kick.  Thats fine IMO.  

Ex 2:  Assuming the attack is a cross.  Omit the initial block and fire off a kick.  As you're landing forward, your hand is up, should another punch come.  If another punch never comes, end off with the swordhand to the neck, face, etc.  

I'm sure this sounds like I'm dissing the art...I'm not.  I love the art.   For the sake of testing, yes, ya gotta do those techs in textbook fashion, no changes, just by the book.  But when you need to defend yourself....worrying about pulling off the textbook moves is second to an effective defense.


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## ATACX GYM (May 9, 2011)

MJS said:


> I know this was directed at AG, but since I like to play around with the techs too, I'll offer my .02  From the clinch, I'd say the kick could be replaced with a knee. You could disengage, depending on what your intentions are. As for the handsword, depending on range, that could turn into a forearm strike. Clearing the arms...theres probably a few different things you could do, depending again, on your intent. Against a club...against a RH club attack, I'd step in, similar to 5 swords. An overhead attack....thats a bit more tricky IMO, if you wanted to stick with trying to use DS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

As usual MJS has covered much of my response,so let me get at some of the parts that haven't been directly addressed.

First? We execute Delayed Sword like I said vs every primary attack,including when we're seated and vs armed multifights.Escape CAN mean Cover Out...you just keep Covering and keep going Out. RESCUE and Escape (in my Gym) most often means rescuing SOMEONE/GROUP OTHER THAN YOURSELF AND ESCAPING WITH THEM WHILE USING YOUR MARTIAL AND MOVEMENT SKILLS TO PROVIDE APPROPRIATE COVER AND/OR OBSTACLES IN THE PATH OF YOUR PURSUER(S) WHILE ESCAPING AND/OR FLAT OUT RUNNING.

There are many ways to execute the DS from the Clinch.The most basic method we us is this: Recall that the snap kick to the groin--if chambered correctly--is also a knee (exactly like MJS said).Recall that I have my students run the tech in its entirety ON BOTH SIDES and THAT IS THE WHOLE TECH THAT I TEACH. I insist on it.Furthermore,the offensive execution of stances alone is a treasure trove of knowledge that I have never seen anyone else specifically address.Aggressively executing bow stances and switching from stance to stance while striking checking,grabbing, blocking,in concert with the relevant Kenpo concepts like Marriage of Gravity (which we find in a gajillion disciplines) is VERY GOOD at disrupting opponents' balance,tripping,launching,grounding,sweeping,displacing,them,etc. And it does so with a plethora of techs that are unusual and difficult to defend against.

Start practicing executing your stances THROUGH your partner with the intent to drop them or at least unbalance them.You'll get a whole new love for the bow and bent kneel stances,promise you.

I also have my students step and move in ALL directions when faced with attacks,even armed attacks.If someone's swinging a bat at them and they step back,they're moving their head out of the way.Bat whistles into the space they're no longer in.Hit or check the swinging arm with the block/hammerblock/hammerfist/whatever to keep the bat moving away,front kick the knee/stomach/groin/leg/whatever open target even head if it's there,handsword, knee/kick the (whatever's open and will hurt to get kicked in) again,handsword to whatever's open and hurts (including arms and ribs) and repeat until BG is asleep or you escape or both. Combine this with executing the techs on both sides,you get a block/parry/slip/check/weave/counter grab/whatever from the clinch,aggressively moving with or into the energy of your opponent with REPEATED disruptive stances,sweeps,pushes,checks,pulls,the knee strike which IS the chamber of the groin kick,followed immediately by the handsword and another knee strike (or if the space allows the front kick to the groin or whatever painful immediately exploitable target that is open) and another handsword.I require this combination...including the displacements and vertical grappling...to be done nonstop.Over rounds.Usually in bursts of 15 reps with your partner in 4,5,and 6-2 minute rounds with low rank students.

You should see people flying and stumbling and stuff.It's FUNNY.Many passersby and martial artists who see my class exclaim at how "hardcore" it is,but everybody is having fun.They laugh alot when they get flung on the ground or stumble. One of the things that came from this practice is that we have become adept at grabbing-stirking with upper body blows-and sweep kicking opponents off balance.We're VERY good at it.I frequently have people ask if we're Judo or old skool Hapkido,but that changes when they see our lightning Kenpo hands and the other stuff that we do.They just know two things (like my new student said when she joined yesterday):"I don't know what you do,but it's cool and I want it."

So yeah I make my students do it all.We use the blocks to facilitate duck unders,so we execute DS from EVERY POSITION in the clinch,whether attack or defense.I make students execute Delayed Sword from Captured Twigs (we attack with the bear hug too,except I teach my students how to counter the Captured Twigs of other people and ours too,and we go into counters to counters; you know how it goes) and everywhere else too.I saturate my students with reps and scenarios using this technique.Like most techs we spend a good week or so focused on the many variants of that tech and then move on to another tech,then combine the two. This is how I emphasize the PRINCIPLES in the techs and I tell them from jump street that memorization of techs is anus,it's about learning and executing the PRINCIPLES.This method VERY QUICKLY--4 days tops,not kidding--drives that point home.And it's fun safe but can get as rough as we want it or need it to be in the process.

This is what we do with Delayed Sword and every other tech.


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## Inkspill (May 11, 2011)

Thanks for the insight sirs.

So if we use the knee strike after stepping in, how do we hit bad billy in the neck with the outward handsword? look how close he is, the target moves toward us and is now too close (because we stepped in)


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## Blindside (May 11, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> Thanks for the insight sirs.
> 
> So if we use the knee strike after stepping in, how do we hit bad billy in the neck with the outward handsword? look how close he is, the target moves toward us and is now too close (because we stepped in)


 
Use the forearm rather than the hand, though admittedly if I was moving in my preferred combination would be forearm then knee, screw the "Delayed" part.


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## MJS (May 11, 2011)

Blindside said:


> Use the forearm rather than the hand, though admittedly if I was moving in my preferred combination would be forearm then knee, screw the "Delayed" part.


 
I was going to suggest the same thing.  Thank you.


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## Twin Fist (May 11, 2011)

*I'm not looking to pull off DS.  If I do, great.  Otherwise, I may use parts of DS, I may mix up the tech.

*
this to me is the essence of Kenpo.

it isnt about 164 techniques, it is about the 1000's of lessons that those techniques teach us.If we learned the lessons, we dont NEED the techniques, if we need to do the techniques, we havnt really learned the lessons.


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## OKenpo942 (May 11, 2011)

I agree. The technique is just a conduit for communicating the many lessons held within each technique. 

For example, DS holds many lessons in the pages beyond the title. It holds a basic block against a basic type of attack or types of attacks (depending how you teach). It holds basic strikes (front snap kick, outward handsword strike), basic stances (neutral bow, cat stance). Very basic, but gives the groundwork for the application of these basics.

DS covers many principles, such as contouring, marriage of gravity, rotational force, line of entry, positional checks, outer rim, outer perimeter, etc.

You go beyond the basic application into grafting with other techniques and you get to the essence of Kenpo. It takes on a language of its own. It becomes the practitioners version of the technique or his/her own physical dialect. 

Kind of like the english language. In different parts of the country, we all sound a little different and use diffferent slang terms, but we can all communicate with one another. It doesn't necessarily have to have a name anymore. It just simply has to be effective and get the job done.

Thanks,

James


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## Inkspill (May 12, 2011)

by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?

If you created your own system or technique and said "ok, I want to teach in this technique, a concept of pulling and pushing at the same time with the arms, so I'll come up with a scenario in which I've grabbed the bad guy's arm, and I pull it toward me with the left hand and execute a heel palm thrusting through his nose with the right, pulling and pushing"

now, someone else down the way says, "rather than do that, I'm going to take the arm that I have grabbed, and do a leverage on the arm instead."

well, now the point of the technique is totally gone! someone that doesn't know what the lesson is changes the technique, and the lesson is gone. does anybody else see what I'm talking about?


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## OKenpo942 (May 12, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?
> 
> If you created your own system or technique and said "ok, I want to teach in this technique, a concept of pulling and pushing at the same time with the arms, so I'll come up with a scenario in which I've grabbed the bad guy's arm, and I pull it toward me with the left hand and execute a heel palm thrusting through his nose with the right, pulling and pushing"
> 
> ...


 
I agree, Inkspill. This is why we should teach the curriculum as Parker laid out. If you understand and know the lessons to be taught within each technique, they are very effective tools. As one progresses in his understanding of the art and learns the lessons, he/she can express those lessons in their own way.

I don't think that we should give the beginnner an amended version of the technique until they are proficient enough to understand what principles or lessons change when the technique is changed. When they can recognize that there are new or different lessons or that different principles come into play if the technique is changed, you know they have been taught correctly and are getting a grasp on what Kenpo is.

James


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## MJS (May 12, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?
> 
> If you created your own system or technique and said "ok, I want to teach in this technique, a concept of pulling and pushing at the same time with the arms, so I'll come up with a scenario in which I've grabbed the bad guy's arm, and I pull it toward me with the left hand and execute a heel palm thrusting through his nose with the right, pulling and pushing"
> 
> ...


 
Thats true, the techs are teaching something specific.  But, if, during the course of a technique, something goes wrong, the student is going to need to be able to adapt to the sudden change.  If  the student assumes they'll a) pull off the whole tech or b) that they'll be able to recall another tech, I think thats a set up to fail.  A boxer has preset combos that they do on focus mitts, but when they jump into the ring to spar/fight, they use a tech/combo thats fitting for the time.  I dont think they're thinking, "Well, in training, coach had me do 2 jabs and a cross, so anytime I wanna throw a cross, I have to preface it with 2 jabs."  

I guess my point is, during the confrontation, theres going to be constant movement, constant change.  If the badguy steps, moves, punches, etc, the slightest bit different from the relaxed, controlled way its done in the school, that will easily throw off the ability to pull off the full tech, thus the need to adapt and change to something else.


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## Blindside (May 12, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?


 
Some people are lumpers, some people are splitters, much of the teaching method depends on the viewpoint of the instructor. Is the lesson limited to what Inkspill wrote above, or is there a broader lesson to be addressed? Something like: Entry line to inside - lead hand defense, lead leg destabilize the base, lead hand checks width. Under that slightly broader category you can teach the lesson based on how far behind the timing curve you are, way behind the curve you have to step back, higher on the curve you can step forward, way ahead of the curve and you can initiate the attack. All within the context of DS, I don't think it stops becoming Kenpo if you teach it with that methodology.

But I'm a lumper.


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## OKenpo942 (May 12, 2011)

Blindside said:


> Some people are lumpers, some people are splitters, much of the teaching method depends on the viewpoint of the instructor. Is the lesson limited to what Inkspill wrote above, or is there a broader lesson to be addressed? Something like: Entry line to inside - lead hand defense, lead leg destabilize the base, lead hand checks width. Under that slightly broader category you can teach the lesson based on how far behind the timing curve you are, way behind the curve you have to step back, higher on the curve you can step forward, way ahead of the curve and you can initiate the attack. All within the context of DS, I don't think it stops becoming Kenpo if you teach it with that methodology.
> 
> But I'm a lumper.



True, but you must not, regardless of where they are on the curve, neglect to teach the original technique in its entirety. If you do, how can we expect to pass on to our students the tools they will need later to teach their students.

Just a thought,

James


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## marlon (May 13, 2011)

MJS said:


> This is probably where I differ from many. I'm not looking to pull off DS. If I do, great. Otherwise, I may use parts of DS, I may mix up the tech. For example, lets say we do DS against a punch, but instead of a step thru, the attack is a cross. Stepping back would take us out of range. I see no reason why we couldnt step as in SF 2. The block is there, the swordhand is there. Only thing missing is the kick. Thats fine IMO.
> 
> Ex 2: Assuming the attack is a cross. Omit the initial block and fire off a kick. As you're landing forward, your hand is up, should another punch come. If another punch never comes, end off with the swordhand to the neck, face, etc.
> 
> I'm sure this sounds like I'm dissing the art...I'm not. I love the art.  For the sake of testing, yes, ya gotta do those techs in textbook fashion, no changes, just by the book. But when you need to defend yourself....worrying about pulling off the textbook moves is second to an effective defense.


 YES!!!
You are not dissing the art, you are keeping it alive!  The techniques are to train specific lessons and skills and then ,what you said  

Marlon


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## marlon (May 13, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> by changing the technique with our step forward, we lose the lesson of bringing the target (the neck) in range of the weapon (the outward handsword). the curriculum of techniques are there to teach various lessons, if we change a bunch of them, what lessons are we losing?
> 
> If you created your own system or technique and said "ok, I want to teach in this technique, a concept of pulling and pushing at the same time with the arms, so I'll come up with a scenario in which I've grabbed the bad guy's arm, and I pull it toward me with the left hand and execute a heel palm thrusting through his nose with the right, pulling and pushing"
> 
> ...


 
yep.that's why i teach the base techniques in an ideal phase, first, I don't feel qualified to drop techniques. I am obligated as the teacher to know or firgure out how to make them work and what makes them work, though. That is why i use reaction drills and such to train aliveness and then perhaps, show the student how s/he used part X of such and such a technique. or, where they failed to use a particular principle taught by technique Y... But, that doesn't mean you can't have some fun and mess things up as well


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## marlon (May 13, 2011)

ATACX GYM said:


> .
> 
> Start practicing executing your stances THROUGH your partner with the intent to drop them or at least unbalance them.You'll get a whole new love for the bow and bent kneel stances,promise you.
> 
> ,it's about learning and executing the PRINCIPLES..


 

Two of the best things you have ever written. Much respect, my friend

Marlon


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## ATACX GYM (May 13, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> Thanks for the insight sirs.
> 
> So if we use the knee strike after stepping in, how do we hit bad billy in the neck with the outward handsword? look how close he is, the target moves toward us and is now too close (because we stepped in)


 

This isn't necessarily true. For instance,if he's taller than us? We can still whack him in the neck even if we've stepped in (I'm a whopping 5'7" 160lbs. and rarely do I have static with anyone my height or size,it's usually somebody taller and bigger). On top of that,since I teach attacking with both sides and also employ what Tony Blauer popularized as THE S.P.E.A.R. (but which of course predates Tony Blauer,I had a variant of this before he popularized it which I called "COVER" or THE COVER PRINCIPLE and which my brother called "THE OH ***** RESPONSE") and practice converting every movement into an attack,defense,and unbalancing mechanism? We explore a huge ocean of lessons just in this one tech. We hit the radial nerve all the way to the shoulder.We execute it while grappling standing or on the ground. Have you seen the look on a guy's face when he's dilligently passing your guard and you give him a dose of thee ole Delayed Sword? PRICELESS.Specially when you boot the nads or kick his thigh back which breaks down his base and he looks all surprised and stuff as he's dropping right into the handsword.Btw handswording a guy in the face gives him no joy.Try it on your unsuspecting sparring partner.He'll BLINK which will allow you to get off another move that he LITERALLY WON'T SEE COMING.

Try the Delayed Sword from THE OUTSIDE. Very interesting options there.Might show a quick clip of that on my upcoming video of this tech.


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## ATACX GYM (May 22, 2011)

The other way to think of nailing the handsword is how I tell my students to turn everything from the tip of their elbow to their stiffened pinkie finger into the ARMsword instead of merely a "handsword".From in close,the blade of the elbow and forearm might be able to smash through obstacles (like opponent's upflung arms) that the handsword alone cannot.It's a terrific way to initiate checks,grabs,pulls,traps,pushes,clinches,setups for throws trips sweeps unbalances displacements standing subs and it's a good counter for same.However,the farther away the opponent is,the higher along the armsword we strike until we're left with a handsword.The point is? When scrappin starts we can hitcha with a sword strike of some kind that will hurt you and likely end the fight,while simultaneously and very efficiently resolving matters like excessive proximity to the defender. You're never too close for our variant of Delayed Sword.


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