# The Meaning of Ninja



## Hanzo04 (Jun 23, 2005)

i have a statement and a question. I was talking to  Shidoshi Gabe Logan today in Illinois (he is of the Bujinkan) and i asked him the all important question. "Do you consider yourself a ninja?" and said he has been a ninja for 15 years. he went on to say that anybody who studies ninjutsu is a ninja. now my thinkig was since Takamatsu O'sensei was the last ninja to do government jobs no-one was a ninja, not even Soke Hatsumi. Do you guys agree with that? I'm confused.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Jun 23, 2005)

It depends on what definition you use for 'ninja.'


Shidoshi Gabe Logan considers himself a ninja because his definition is: Ninja = someone who practices ninjutsu. Your definition is: Ninja = someone who does government jobs.

My definition is: Ninja = someone who does ninja things (ninja is as ninja does).


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 23, 2005)

Okay then that means everyone who practices ninjutsu is a ninja. now i want to ask what is the meaning of ninja in modern times? can anybody that practices budo taijutsu in the Bujinkan be called a ninja?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 23, 2005)

Its all a matter of semantics.  Some people will say yes, Ninja, others will say No, ninja... it doenst matter, as far as I am concerned.

What do I say?  Depends on my mood and the day of the week.

Gabe is a great guy, BTW... I enjoyed my training with him a great deal.


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## Floating Egg (Jun 23, 2005)

Who would feel comfortable refering to themselves as Samurai?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 23, 2005)

*Shrug*

I would if I felt ties to their "ways" beyond the Martial Aspects... But Id call myself a lot of things, including some that werent so flattering depending on my mood... so...


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 23, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> Who would feel comfortable refering to themselves as Samurai?


Well, there is this guy.. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047478/board/nest/2689122


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## stephen (Jun 23, 2005)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> I'm confused.




You feel that a lot, hmmm....

How many months have you been posting silly questions about the Bujinkan? How many classes have you attended?


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## arnisador (Jun 23, 2005)

Someone in the Bujinkan practices Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, right? Is such a person a taijutsuka? Am I right that Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu, as the art was formerly described in public, is no longer taght under that name? It sounds like there are no new ninjas being made!


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## Mountain Kusa (Jun 23, 2005)

Garden Variety answer;

Ninja - to endure and persevere.

Samurai - To serve

" to endure and persevere those who would serve". Those who have chosen to become masters and rule over those they should serve. Sound familier in todays world?

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

To me it is more of a mind set, physicalness is only the beginning.

.o2 kachingka


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 23, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> It sounds like there are no new ninjas being made!


I know, and it sucks because I have to resort to the A-Team when I need covert work done.  Hannibal is such a smug ***.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 24, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Someone in the Bujinkan practices Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, right? Is such a person a taijutsuka?


We tend to simply say budoka.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> Am I right that Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu, as the art was formerly described in public, is no longer taght under that name? It sounds like there are no new ninjas being made!


There weren't back then either. But Togakure ryu is still being taught, though I seriously doubt the majority of Bujinkan shidoshi have in-depth knowledge about said school.

Personally, I find all the excuses people come up with nowadays to refer to themselves as ninja and samurai utterly ridiculous.


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## Floating Egg (Jun 24, 2005)

Well, I think we can all agree than language is ambiguous, and that it changes over time. I consider Ninja and Samurai historical terms, and I use them in the appropriate context.


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## Mickey Mullins (Jun 24, 2005)

> To me it is more of a mind set, physicalness is only the beginning.


This is a very good point.Being a ninja really has nothing to do with "government jobs" or even "fighting".Hatsumi Sensei uses the taijutsu and er um ... killing, as a vehicle to show us something more important.....living,IMHO.

So to further expand on this thread (SO AS TO MAKE IT MORE USEFUL),what would the ninja mindset be ?

Mickey Mullins


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 24, 2005)

"The Bujinkan is about killing people."

- Hatsumi sensei approximately one year ago.

:idunno:


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## Floating Egg (Jun 24, 2005)

> "The Bujinkan is about killing people."
> 
> - Hatsumi sensei approximately one year ago.


That's not all it is, but yeah, he's right. Let's not sugar coat it.


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 24, 2005)

Why is it when ever i have a sincere question about MA somebody always has to make a stupid remark about my question. I have an inquisitive mind and i like to know things for myself so i can figure things out. None of my questions are stupid. I can't understand why you guys don't like me. It's not fair. I have done plenty of research on the Bujinkan and no I don't take ninjutsu now (i will in the spring). what i had to say was a real event that happened yesterday. I don't ask questions to sound stupid or start arguments. I want to know things, that's why i signed up. But NOOOO, everyone on this forum wants to put people down just to make themselves feel powerfull. A lot of you are on an ego trip and you gotta get over yourselves. And stay on the question at hand. how come someone has to always go off subject. i asked a yes or no question. i didn't ask what dr. Hatsumi said, i asked what YOU think personally.


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## DWeidman (Jun 24, 2005)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> ...now my thinkig was since Takamatsu O'sensei was the last ninja to do government jobs no-one was a ninja, not even Soke Hatsumi. Do you guys agree with that? I'm confused.


No.  I don't agree with that.

Any other questions?

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 24, 2005)

thank you for responding honestly DWeidman


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## Don Roley (Jun 24, 2005)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> Why is it when ever i have a sincere question about MA somebody always has to make a stupid remark about my question.



If you get that problem a lot, maybe you should think that the problem is with you instead of everyone else.

One thing you could to for a start is to drop the term "O'sensei." Takamatsu was not Irish. The term is not used in standard Japanese. The most famous use of it was in aikido for it's founder *after* his son started to take over the reigns. The term was used to indicate that they were talking about the _senior_ Ueshiba and not the current Doshu of the art.

No one in the Bujinkan in Japan uses it. When I see it used on the internet it irritates me. If you irritate me through your ignorance, I do not see why I should bother to treat your questions with any great importance.

Think before posting. Then maybe you will not have the problems you are complaining about.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 24, 2005)

OMG... Takamatsu wasn't irish?

What the hell was I thinking all this time???

LOL.

Don you crack me up. 

When you say no one in the Bujinkan in Japan uses it, you are refering to Osensei, not ninja, corret?  Or do you perhaps mean both?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 24, 2005)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> It's not fair. I have done plenty of research on the Bujinkan


I'm not convinced.



			
				Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> and no I don't take ninjutsu now (i will in the spring).


No you won't, you will be practicing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

I tend to take the same stance about referring to yourself as a ninja/samurai as I do about training with the Genbukan and Jinenkan - if you can talk about doing so in front of Hatsumi sensei, then by all means...


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## Don Roley (Jun 24, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> When you say no one in the Bujinkan in Japan uses it, you are refering to Osensei, not ninja, corret?  Or do you perhaps mean both?



O'sensei. The N word is actually thrown around a lot. My teacher is big on pointing out that the original name for this art is Ninpo taijutsu and reminds us that the job of the ninja was not to trash the other guy, but to get back with the information. Therefore, running away is a distinguished part of our art.
 :CTF:


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## Shogun (Jun 24, 2005)

> the job of the ninja was not to trash the other guy,


 So taking him out for a few drinks is out of the question?


Yeah, I think thats one thing many arent aware of when it comes to Taijutsu, Aikido, etc .  for instance, someone will say "why didnt you kick his knee in then follow up with a punch combo after you blinded him" and the reason is that takes up precious time and energy when you can be escaping. sounds rather "common sense" but its true.


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 24, 2005)

You still don't get it! Don Roley just proved my point of putting somebody down to make themselves feel better about their low self-esteem. You're all a bunch of lames including


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## Genin Andrew (Jun 24, 2005)

Hanzo, 
You really need to be a little more lighthearted and relaxed when entering forums and hearing what people have to say. Alot of the time your not gonna get happy smiley responses. The problem you have here is that all/most of us here are serious practitioners of ninjutsu, this is a ninjutsu forum. We all train very hard and do alot of research to develop in our art and understand it further.
My advice, do a search before you ask questions, alot of the guys here get newbs coming in all the time with the same questions, whats a ninja,how do i assassinate people, how do you make smoke bombs,are there still real ninja, are ninja-to real swords? and it all gets very tiring and tedious...

Also if you want a good comprehensive knowledge of what a "ninja" is check out Hatsumi's book 'The essence of ninjutsu', its a special book and i'm sure will answer your questions if you take the time to read it.

best of luck with your research.


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## arnisador (Jun 24, 2005)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> Also if you want a good comprehensive knowledge of what a "ninja" is check out Hatsumi's book 'The essence of ninjutsu', its a special book and i'm sure will answer your questions if you take the time to read it.


 This reminds me that no matter how much people insist the art is Taijutsu, when it comes time to sell something, it's almost certainly got 'Ninja' or 'Ninjutsu' in the title. E.g., this 2004 book by Maasaki Hatsumi, or this 2004 DVD. The "Understand? Good. Play!--Words of Consequence" book is a rare counterexample.


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## Don Roley (Jun 24, 2005)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> You still don't get it! Don Roley just proved my point of putting somebody down to make themselves feel better about their low self-esteem. You're all a bunch of lames including



I suggest you lighten up and improve your attitude. My post was not a put down of you. It was very relevent to the conversation by pointing out problems that you have caused. The post above it one of them.

Calling everyone a" bunch of lames" is a good example of why you are having so much trouble posting here. If you keep that attitude up, don't be surprised if people snap right back at you and make fun of you when they can.

As a moderator, I have to clean up after the messes you cause. Cause me too much trouble and you will find yourself with the others who tried insulting people on a regular basis.


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 25, 2005)

Like i said, i proved my point. i don't start arguments, you start them by making fun of my posts. Thanks for the "intelligent" answers everybody. And you'll be happy to learn that I am deleting my profile. So now you won't get anymore "trouble" out of me. Hanzo out!  :mp5:


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## Genin Andrew (Jun 25, 2005)

arnisador,

apologies for the 'annoying salesman' habits!


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## Genin Andrew (Jun 25, 2005)

Looks like i just lost a client...:whip:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 25, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> This reminds me that no matter how much people insist the art is Taijutsu, when it comes time to sell something, it's almost certainly got 'Ninja' or 'Ninjutsu' in the title. E.g., this 2004 book by Maasaki Hatsumi, or this 2004 DVD. The "Understand? Good. Play!--Words of Consequence" book is a rare counterexample.


And?

None of these examples actually suggest that you are learning *ninjutsu*, as opposed to taijutsu, whilst training in the Bujinkan.


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## Don Roley (Jun 25, 2005)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> Like i said, i proved my point. i don't start arguments, you start them by making fun of my posts. Thanks for the "intelligent" answers everybody. And you'll be happy to learn that I am deleting my profile. So now you won't get anymore "trouble" out of me. Hanzo out!  :mp5:



So, why do you think people are making fun of your post? A lot of people post and do not get made fun of. So it can't be a forum tendency. So, could the problems be with the immature way you present yourself?

If you take responsibility for the way you present yourself instead of lashing out and calling everyone 'lame' when things do not go your own way, maybe you may get a bit more serious treatment.


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## arnisador (Jun 25, 2005)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> arnisador,
> 
> apologies for the 'annoying salesman' habits!


 I wonder if it's even a decision made by the author, as opposed to the publisher. Once they get the material, they can usually label it as they wish.


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## Shogun (Jun 25, 2005)

> You still don't get it! Don Roley just proved my point of putting somebody down to make themselves feel better about their low self-esteem. You're all a bunch of lames including


Ha ha. yeah, I can be pretty lame huh? good analysis. are you a detective? haha. 



> And?
> 
> None of these examples actually suggest that you are learning *ninjutsu*, as opposed to taijutsu, whilst training in the Bujinkan.


It seems just the opposite. They dont appear divided (at least in my, the beginner's, mind) but rather unified and only with training can you actually pick out the "Ninjutsu" in BBT. I have been known to be wrong though.....from time to time....


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## ginshun (Jun 27, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> And?
> 
> None of these examples actually suggest that you are learning *ninjutsu*, as opposed to taijutsu, whilst training in the Bujinkan.


 True, but I don't think that any of them suggest that you are learning taijutsu as opposed to ninjutsu either.  And when an instructional book/DVD has the word ninja or ninjutsu in the title, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people are going to assume that it teaches ninjutsu...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 27, 2005)

ginshun said:
			
		

> True, but I don't think that any of them suggest that you are learning taijutsu as opposed to ninjutsu either.


Their contents do, however. 

Look closer...



			
				ginshun said:
			
		

> And when an instructional book/DVD has the word ninja or ninjutsu in the title, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people are going to assume that it teaches ninjutsu...


None of the examples mentioned had the word *ninjutsu *in the title. And the fact remains, showing up at a Bujinkan dojo hoping to learn how to make poison, slit people's throats from behind and/or scale walls and jump between rooftops is kind of like showing up at the Betty Ford clinic in a vomit-ridden taxi with a lampshade on your head and several syringe marks on your forearm...


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## ginshun (Jun 27, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Their contents do, however.
> 
> Look closer...
> 
> ...


 point taken. 

 There is really no use in arguing anyway, as it pretty much boils down to semantics in the end.


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## arnisador (Jun 27, 2005)

Both of the examples I posted had 'Ninja' in the title.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 27, 2005)

And? People don't expect much in the terms of ninjutsu when purchasing a Kawasaki Ninja, do they?


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## arnisador (Jun 27, 2005)

Uh, no...but if they purchase a martial arts book or DVD with Ninja in the title, it might be different, don't you think?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 27, 2005)

Yes, but the book and dvd in question are not labelled "instructional" material.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Jun 27, 2005)

Well at the dojo I train at, I learn BBT and ninjutsu - The Bujinkan is derived of nine ryu, several of which teach ninja things. If you're not learning ninjutsu and want to, find an instructor that will teach you such.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 27, 2005)

Please let us know what this "ninjutsu" you are learning is.


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## Shinkengata (Jun 27, 2005)

It's very sad when you consider that our friend Hanzo is acting almost exactly like i was on these forums when i was 16 and 17. He should have stuck around and became a RSS(Roley Success Story) like me.:supcool:


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## Shizen Shigoku (Jun 28, 2005)

Nevermind. I appoint Nim as my minister of disinformation. Together, he and I will make sure that every one knows that Ninjutsu never has existed and never will, . . . and I otherwise know nothing about it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 28, 2005)

"When feeling unsure about something, simply deny all previously accepted terms and definitions."


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

Just curious... I for one haven't been taught very much ninjutsu, which, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with physical combat techniques, but rather is a specialized science designed for use in feudal Japan with the gathering and usage of information/disinformation as its main purpose.


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## Floating Egg (Jun 29, 2005)

Unless you associate Togakure with Ninjutsu...


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## Genin Andrew (Jun 29, 2005)

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> He should have stuck around and became a RSS(Roley Success Story) like me.:supcool:


He may be back, Don has an effect on most people like that, he'll be back for more...one day.

"Together, he and I will make sure that every one knows that Ninjutsu never has existed and never will"

DuuuuuuuuuuuudE!!!!!!!! i-am-not-saying-a-thing!
Not really the ideal place to throw around those statements! (ah, said something, really gotta work on self discipline)


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## mizu_teppo (Jun 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Just curious... I for one haven't been taught very much ninjutsu, which, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with physical combat techniques, but rather is a specialized science designed for use in feudal Japan with the gathering and usage of information/disinformation as its main purpose.


 Well there is Santo Tonko no Kata (12 formal escape patterns involving shuko, metsbushui, senban, and goton no jutsu), Shinobi Gaeshi Gata (12 formal patterns that include teaching to use metsubushi, shuriken, and shuko), the kamae and ukemi of Togakure-ryu, as well as Togakure-ryu bikenjutsu and kusarigamajutsu (the kyoketsu shoge techniques). That's part of ninjutsu, it's combat related (mostly escape patterns, but you know) and it's all been taught in the bujinkan at one time or another. Then there are "ninjutsu hints" found all over Hatsumi-sensei's books.

 But I understand what you're saying. This stuff from Togakure ryu in my opinion is actually more properly termed "ninpo taijutsu". IMO, Ninjutsu is bansenshukai. Ninpo taijutsu is the part of ninjutsu practiced in the dojo today. Being just a small part of budo taijutsu though I am definately in support of the phrase "ninjutsu is not taught in the bujinkan". The terms ninja dna ninjutsu are overated, while Hatsumi-sensei's budo is under rated. I study in the bujinkan because I am interested in Hatsumi-sensei's budo. if I was more interested in "ninjutsu", I'd travel to Japan and study at the "Koga Iga Ninjutsu Gakuen", in the Shiga Prefecture village of Koga. It's a ninjutsu re-inactment sort of school where you study seven courses and 150 units covering "ninjutsu".

 For the topic at hand, anyone who refers to themselves as a ninja will not be taken seriously by me (except in rare cases). Esspecially if it's for promotional purposes. This is why I don't really respect people like Stephen Hayes.I'm much more interested in training with people who are there to pursue Hatsumi-sensei's budo and philosophy, rather than anything labeled ninja.


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## ginshun (Jun 29, 2005)

I suppose I see what you are saying, but it ninjutsu is not taught in the Bujinkan, and the Buj does not produce ninjas, then why does Hatsumi name his books with titles like:

  [font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]*The Way Of The Ninja: Secret Techniques*
  [/size][/font][size=-1]*Ninjutsu: History and Tradition
*[/size][size=-1]*Essence of Ninjutsu
*[/size][size=-1]*The Grandmaster's Book of Ninja Training* 
  [/size][size=-1]*Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster 

  ect, ect.

*So are you claiming that "The Granmasters Book of Ninja Training" and "Essence of Ninjutsu" are not ninjutsu training manuals? Seems a bit silly to title them as such if that is the case.
 It still seems like just a matter of semantics. Some people considering ninjutsu to be a much broader idea than others, without anyone who is really qualified to define it doing so.

  I am not trying to be confrontational, but come on.  What the heck?

 Edit:
 Also, why is this forum called the Ninjutsu forum if nobody (or very few) here are learning/studying ninjutsu?  Why not change it to the Taijutsu forum?

  [/size]


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## arnisador (Jun 29, 2005)

ginshun said:
			
		

> [size=-1]Also, why is this forum called the Ninjutsu forum if nobody (or very few) here are learning/studying ninjutsu? Why not change it to the Taijutsu forum?[/size]


 I assume teh answer all around is name recognition. Ninjutsu hasn't, but Taijutsu doesn't.

 When I first heard of Maasaki Hatsumi via Black Belt magazine and his own and Stepehen K. Hayes' books, it was Tokagure-ryu Ninjutsu, not any sort of taijutsu. It's hard to get a name change/correction through! Heck, I line in Indiana but I still call 'em the Baltimore Colts half of the time.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

First off, Hatsumi sensei is Japanese. He cannot be expected to be as frank about things as a westerner would.
That "The Grandmaster's Book..." and "Essence of Ninjutsu" are not training manuals is apparent for anyone who opens them and reads a single chapter - the first consists of interviews, the second mostly of tales and anecdotes of different kinds.

I'm all for this forum having its name changed - I suggest we call it "Budo Taijutsu - Ninpo Taijutsu".


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## rutherford (Jun 29, 2005)

Nimravus, you haven't been shown at least some of the techniques for walking silently?  Or not leaving a trail in long grass?

Or some of the sentry removal attacks?

I'd say that my training group has about one class a month that strongly emphasises things you would call Ninjutsu.


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## Tgace (Jun 29, 2005)

Does the US Army teach "Ninjutsu" too then? Learned the same things there. So would learning them make you a SOF soldier too? 

Little tongue-in-cheek there but do you see my point?


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## rutherford (Jun 29, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Does the US Army teach "Ninjutsu" too then? Learned the same things there. So would learning them make you a SOF soldier too?
> 
> Little tongue-in-cheek there but do you see my point?



I see your point, but not the path I think you're trying to make.  Knowing a bit of this or a bit of that does not a Ninja make.

However, I do know of Army National Guard Instructors who teach Ninjutsu to troops.  And I don't mean the same techniques drawn from different sources.  I mean authentic, this knowledge came straight from Japan.  

So what?  :idunno:


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## Tgace (Jun 29, 2005)

Well just for conversational purposes, lets see if anybody can agree with definitions. I found these on a google search. Agree/disagree??

http://www.questkagami.com/glossary.html


> ninja -- (J) Used casually to describe those who practice ninjutsu, with varying degrees of humor intended. Some people consider a ninja to be literally anyone who studies the art. Others feel it describes someone who uses the art for espionage activities in any time period, and still others feel it is a strictly historical term that no longer applies to anyone alive.
> 
> ninjutsu -- (J) Depending on usage, either the collection of martial techniques from the schools taught under Soke Masaaki Hatsumi, or an entire philosophy or lifestyle of survival and efficient, effective action. In the first definition, it is closer to 'taijutsu', and in the second, closer to 'ninpo'. Some even argue that 'ninjutsu' no longer exists, in terms of the espionage agents of ancient Japan, but the term is still commonly used to describe the martial techniques, no matter how traditional or modified in the modern day.
> 
> ninpo -- (J) A very loose definition meaning the collection of martial techniques known as ninjutsu together with the lifestyle common to martial artists, warrior philosophies, and the various spiritual techniques that might be associated. Each person will have a different interpretation of what exactly falls into this category, but it is used commonly to refer to "all things associated with a ninjutsu view of life", in contrast to only techniques for combat.


For that matter, how does this equate to a modern martial artist saying that he practices Bushido?


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## rupton (Jun 29, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Does the US Army teach "Ninjutsu" too then?


Well, at least the jutsu portion


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## ginshun (Jun 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> First off, Hatsumi sensei is Japanese. He cannot be expected to be as frank about things as a westerner would.
> That "The Grandmaster's Book..." and "Essence of Ninjutsu" are not training manuals is apparent for anyone who opens them and reads a single chapter - the first consists of interviews, the second mostly of tales and anecdotes of different kinds.
> 
> I'm all for this forum having its name changed - I suggest we call it "Budo Taijutsu - Ninpo Taijutsu".


 First off, if Hatsumi has not been specific about what ninjutsu is then how come you seem to have such a specific idea of its definition?

 And that is true about the books, they are not training manuals persay, but there are examples of techniques shown in both of those books.  Are those techniquies ninjutsu or not?  If not, then why are thry in a book with said title.

 I suppose it is like arnisador said, a lot less people would probably buy "Essense of Tiajutsu"

 What are we arguing about again?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Nimravus, you haven't been shown at least some of the techniques for walking silently? Or not leaving a trail in long grass?
> 
> Or some of the sentry removal attacks?
> 
> I'd say that my training group has about one class a month that strongly emphasises things you would call Ninjutsu.


I hope for your sake that most of it originates from Japan.



			
				ginshun said:
			
		

> First off, if Hatsumi has not been specific about what ninjutsu is then how come you seem to have such a specific idea of its definition?


I don't know about you, but I find no reason to doubt Hatsumi sensei's claims of recent years that ninjutsu and taijutsu are not synonymous and that he hasn't been teaching very much ninjutsu but rather focused on taijutsu and bukiwaza. Or do you have any information that suggests otherwise, apart from the names of books and videos?



			
				ginshun said:
			
		

> And that is true about the books, they are not training manuals persay, but there are examples of techniques shown in both of those books. Are those techniquies ninjutsu or not? If not, then why are thry in a book with said title.


Ninjutsu is not about techniques, so no. As for the names, well..."essence" is a popular word in the Bujinkan and for a reason, surely you've heard it before?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

ginshun said:
			
		

> I suppose it is like arnisador said, a lot less people would probably buy "Essense of Tiajutsu"


Yes. And? See, there's plenty to argue about.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 29, 2005)

I still say we are arguing semantics.

You say "Adhesive Bandage" and I say "Band Aid"

I say "Frisbee" and you say "Flying Disk"

But I ask, Does it really matter, beyond being elitist?


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## ginshun (Jun 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Yes. And? See, there's plenty to argue about.


 And nothing. I wasn't making a judgment, just an observation. I see nothing wrong with the way the books and videos are named, even if it is a bit misleading.

   Perhaps naming a book "Essence of Ninjutsu" even though it really doesn't explain ninjutsu that well *is* the essence of ninjutsu?

   Does that make sense to anyone else?  My head hurts.




			
				technopunk said:
			
		

> I still say we are arguing semantics.
> 
> You say "Adhesive Bandage" and I say "Band Aid"
> 
> I say "Frisbee" and you say "Flying Disk"


  Agreed.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I still say we are arguing semantics.
> 
> You say "Adhesive Bandage" and I say "Band Aid"
> 
> ...


These examples are synonymous. Taijutsu and ninjutsu are not.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> These examples are synonymous. Taijutsu and ninjutsu are not.


Nim, I was thinkin about it. It's WRONG to generalize and use the terminology some of us do.

In fact... Budo Taijutsu, or even Taijutsu may be too general as well...

Perhaps we should lay claim to the SPECIFIC Ryu that we are currently working.

So today, I might be a student of the Koto Ryu. Tomorrow It might be Togakure, and sunday it could be Kukishinden.

:shrug:

Those words may not be synonymous... but they are used that way.  Thats what you are arguing against.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 29, 2005)

Furthermore...

Some People tend to forget (or perhaps ignore) that this is how the arts were Introduced to the west, and this is then how they are still thought of by many. Using that terminology.

Who cares? Does it matter? 

When someone constantly reminds others they are wrong, I have to ask why? Does it destroy your world or invalidate your training for me to call it Ninjutsu? Are are you trying to prove you are better, or know more, because you are "enlightened" to the fact that's not all it is?

Call my training "Poo Poo Taijutsu" and I will still train in it... and not complain about the lack of Poo Poo.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

Nope. Sorry but your analogy is inaccurate. All techniques practiced within the nine ryuha are budo taijutsu. Even if weapons are used, taijutsu is the basis.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Furthermore...
> 
> Some People tend to forget (or perhaps ignore) that this is how the arts were Introduced to the west, and this is then how they are still thought of by many. Using that terminology.


Old habits die hard, I'll give you that.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> When someone constantly reminds others they are wrong, I have to ask why? Does it destroy your world or invalidate your training for me to call it Ninjutsu?


Does it destroy or invalidate your training to realize that the usage of the word ninjutsu has largely been inaccurate?



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> Are are you trying to prove you are better, or know more, because you are "enlightened" to the fact that's not all it is?


Would you say the same about instructing?


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Nope. Sorry but your analogy is inaccurate. All techniques practiced within the nine ryuha are budo taijutsu. Even if weapons are used, taijutsu is the basis.


The analogy being inaccurate, if you ignore the fact it was Introduced to the world as "ninjutsu" and only "recently" renamed BudoTaijustu


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Does it destroy or invalidate your training to realize that the usage of the word ninjutsu has largely been inaccurate??


No, and that was my point... who cares what it's called?



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Would you say the same about instructing?


Im not sure what you mean by this, so I will answer in the context I meant the comment...

I would not NOT learn from an instructor who's taijustsu seemed good who uses the term Ninja/Ninjutsu... Anymore than I would go to an instructor who I thought sucked because he knows its called Budo Taijutsu.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> The analogy being inaccurate, if you ignore the fact it was Introduced to the world as "ninjutsu" and only "recently" renamed BudoTaijustu


The word taijutsu seems to have been around from the start anyway...though, as has already been said, it obviously doesn't sound as cool.

It's funny... I started training around late 1994/early '95, and the first instructor I had pretty much never said anything else than "budo". Not a word about the Bujinkan, taijutsu, ninjutsu, ninpo, jujutsu or bujutsu...simply budo.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 29, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> No, and that was my point... who cares what it's called?


Given a choice between two alternatives, of which one is more accurate than the other, why would you choose the least accurate? Because it sounds better?




			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> Im not sure what you mean by this, so I will answer in the context I meant the comment...


My point was that the basic premise for you showing up to train with someone would be that he has knowledge or abilities previously unknown to you that you believe you would benefit from studying. Would you say he is letting you in on this information just to feed his ego and to confirm that he is more skilled and/or experienced than you?



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> I would not NOT learn from an instructor who's taijustsu seemed good who uses the term Ninja/Ninjutsu... Anymore than I would go to an instructor who I thought sucked because he knows its called Budo Taijutsu.


I trust people who use the N-word if I also have reason to believe they know the actual difference between taijutsu and ninjutsu.


----------



## mizu_teppo (Jun 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Given a choice between two alternatives, of which one is more accurate than the other, why would you choose the least accurate? Because it sounds better?


 This is what I agree with. It's better to be accurate about your own art rather than call it something so you can feel like a ninjer. Why would you not want to be accurate about your art? That would be like me studying taekwon-do but calling it karate because taekwon-do developed from shotokan.

 The reason the term ninjutsu was first used was because Hatsumi-sensei was introducing to the west numerous martial arts that ninja studied and so he put it into simple terms so we'd all understand. Now that the bujinkan has matured it's time for us to grow up and realise what exactly we are learning. Like I said before, ninjutsu is bansenshukai. What is found in the bujinkan is budo taijutsu and ninpo taijutsu. "Understand? Good. Play!" talks about these kinds of things. But when you quote Hatsumi-sensei for anything, you always have to use the latest possible source, because Soke will say things at certain times based on his audience and their level of understanding. What Soke used to say in the 80's on some subjects is no longer valid today. I mean, how many of you have heard Soke say "I did not say that then because people were not ready to hear it". It's important to understand this and see how Soke's teaching methodology generally works. I find he will also say things to get a certain point of across, though it might not be 100% accurate. Or he may be speaking in metaphorical terms. So you really have to look closely at Soke's words and not always take them in the most basic, striaghtforward, literal sense. A good example of this is most of the text found in "Way of the Ninja" (the book is definately advanced in philosophical terms, IMO).

 As for people practicing "ninja" things like silent movement or water techniques... it's probably most definately military and/or western developed stuff. If it comes from Japan and is ninjutsu, then you should be able to tell the exact, correct, japanese name for the technique. If you can't, then I'd question what you are learning.


----------



## Floating Egg (Jun 29, 2005)

> As for people practicing "ninja" things like silent movement or water techniques... it's probably most definately military and/or western developed stuff. If it comes from Japan and is ninjutsu, then you should be able to tell the exact, correct, japanese name for the technique. If you can't, then I'd question what you are learning.


Are you suggesting that Shinobi Aruki is not actively taught in the West?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 29, 2005)

mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> If it comes from Japan and is ninjutsu, then you should be able to tell the exact, correct, japanese name for the technique. If you can't, then I'd question what you are learning.


While Im not refering to "Ninjutsu" techniques specifically, but rather my training as a whole, Im an american, who does not speak Japanese, and consequently I remember the "American Names" for the techniques I learn far more easily than the Japanese ones... Are you saying that the techniques are in question because I cannot prattle their names off in a language that is foriegn to me?

Please.


----------



## Shogun (Jun 29, 2005)

> Given a choice between two alternatives, of which one is more accurate than the other, why would you choose the least accurate? Because it sounds better?


In the west, we have a way of simplifying things. quite possibly its easier to say Ninjutsu when speaking because it rolls of the tongue easier than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I often say Ninjutsu when speaking of it, but Ninpo is my favorite, or, Ninja Taijutsu. both are far more descriptive within fewer words to the average person. another thing, to the non-practitioner, Ninjutsu is general term for the martial art that Ninja used. now, this may not be precise (condsidering your average bushi and common folk also used them) but it works. and if it works, whats in name? a rose is still a rose yadda yadda etc etc


----------



## mizu_teppo (Jun 29, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> While Im not refering to "Ninjutsu" techniques specifically, but rather my training as a whole, Im an american, who does not speak Japanese, and consequently I remember the "American Names" for the techniques I learn far more easily than the Japanese ones... Are you saying that the techniques are in question because I cannot prattle their names off in a language that is foriegn to me?
> 
> Please.


 Your argument isn't valid because the techniques I'm reffering to don't really have english names. I mean they do, but it's not something you would say. If you're refering to your training as a whole, then that is something completely different and off topic.



> Are you suggesting that Shinobi Aruki is not actively taught in the West?


 Tell me what "shinobi aruki" you've learned. Not all aruki is silent ninjer stuff.


----------



## Floating Egg (Jun 29, 2005)

> Tell me what "shinobi aruki" you've learned. Not all aruki is silent ninjer stuff.


If I told you I'd have to kill you.


----------



## mizu_teppo (Jun 29, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> If I told you I'd have to kill you.


 Lol, is that your way of saying that you haven't learned it at all?


----------



## Floating Egg (Jun 29, 2005)

I never claimed that I did, but you didn't answer my question either.


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## arnisador (Jun 29, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Some People tend to forget (or perhaps ignore) that this is how the arts were Introduced to the west, and this is then how they are still thought of by many. Using that terminology.


 There's an aspect of this. Similarly, I have to think twice or else I write _jujitsu_ rather than _jujutsu_. (Notice that jujitsu is still the preferred form when viewed as a word in the English language.) But, from this end it feels as though the insistence on calling it _taijutsu_ is a re-branding of sorts too--"We wish we hadn't used ninjutsu, so everyone please switch to taijutsu now. Thanks." I honestly don't know the truth. Maybe it's been called taijutsu for centuries and no one in Japan would recognize it if it was called ninjutsu. (I know, no one knows much that's accurate about it no matter how it's called!) It feels like a PR campaign either way.

   Not an expert--that's just how it comes off to me.

  As to simply calling it _budo_, though...at the least, that seems an incomplete and insufficiently specific description of exactly what it is.


----------



## Floating Egg (Jun 29, 2005)

Most people identify ninjutsu with stealthy stuff like Ashinami Jukka Jo and Inton Jutsu, but upon further investigation the abiguity of the word surfaces. Perhaps this abiguity is better represented by a word that is not so laden with myth and legend. Then again, what exactly does Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu communicate? Are we really saying anything more significant?


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## Shogun (Jun 29, 2005)

> Similarly, I have to think twice or else I write _jujitsu_ rather than _jujutsu_.


 Well my thoughts on this is that _Jujitsu_ has become the way we spell this martial art in america. It has Become an american word. _Jiu Jitsu_ is the same thng, only it has how the Brasilians spell it. _Jujutsu_ would obviously refering to Japanese Jujutsu.



> As to simply calling it _budo_, though...at the least, that seems an incomplete and insufficiently specific description of exactly what it is.


Most definitely. If the term Ninjutsu is the Yin, Budo would be the Yang. While Ninjutsu is overly specific and sometimes (more often than not) incorrect, Budo would be a overly general to the point of not even being associated with the martial arts. Tea ceremonies and the like are Budo. 

KE


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 30, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> In the west, we have a way of simplifying things. quite possibly its easier to say Ninjutsu when speaking because it rolls of the tongue easier than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.


Well, that's exactly it. Practicing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a way of making things more difficult for you. And I know Ed Martin is fond of saying that this art adapts to you more than you have to adapt to it. Sorry, but in my experience that is only a half-truth.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> I often say Ninjutsu when speaking of it, but Ninpo is my favorite, or, Ninja Taijutsu. both are far more descriptive within fewer words to the average person. another thing, to the non-practitioner, Ninjutsu is general term for the martial art that Ninja used. now, this may not be precise (condsidering your average bushi and common folk also used them) but it works. and if it works, whats in name? a rose is still a rose yadda yadda etc etc


Wouldn't it be nice to know you're putting in an effort to make sure that in due time Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu will gain widespread acceptance far greater and better than the quite a lot more stigmatized word ninjutsu ever would or could?


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## ginshun (Jun 30, 2005)

I think the fact that I got a positive and a negative rep point for the same post in this thread says something about how people veiw this subject.  I am just not sure what.

 Regardless, it still seems like semantics to me.  If you are happy with what you are learning, as I am, the name matters little.

 IMO at least.  To each his own.


----------



## rutherford (Jun 30, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I hope for your sake that most of it originates from Japan.



I am convinced that it does.  I make no claim about being good at it, or even being more interested beyond a "boy that's cool" sort of feeling.  At my level, there's SO much other stuff that I need to concentrate my time on.  I will not be one of those people who makes it years and years without ever learning to punch correctly. 

And, I am surprised if you haven't had a chance for the same teachings.  If it's something you're interested in, find somebody who knows, develop a relationship with them, and learn it.  I've heard repeatedly that people who say this or that isn't being taught in the Bujinkan just aren't looking deeply enough.  Is this not true with what you'd call ninjutsu techniques?

mizu_teppo, would you say that people who go to Dave Furukawa, Dick Severance, or Greg Dilley would learn water techniques with a basis in Japan?  If Shihan Severance showed you some stuff he learned in the military, would you ignore it because it wasn't Japanese?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 30, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> I am convinced that it does.


And exactly why is that?



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> And, I am surprised if you haven't had a chance for the same teachings.


Who says I haven't?



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> If it's something you're interested in, find somebody who knows, develop a relationship with them, and learn it.


At the moment I'm struggling to do just that, only in my case it's the taijutsu I'm mainly interested in...



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> I've heard repeatedly that people who say this or that isn't being taught in the Bujinkan just aren't looking deeply enough. Is this not true with what you'd call ninjutsu techniques?


I'd say I have a fairly good connection right now through my instructors as to what's being taught in Japan. I'm also fairly sure that we would be seeing more "ninjutsu" being taught if the Japanese thought more highly of our taijutsu standard.



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> mizu_teppo, would you say that people who go to Dave Furukawa, Dick Severance, or Greg Dilley would learn water techniques with a basis in Japan? If Shihan Severance showed you some stuff he learned in the military, would you ignore it because it wasn't Japanese?


I personally wouldn't ignore it, as I've seen methods from shootfighting, kali, kuntaosilat, BJJ and several other styles being adapted to a taijutsu perspective. And I don't mean that as a case of people looking to outside sources to complement something they find lacking within the Bujinkan, as I was confident the people I trained with then had the degree of experience required to evaluate the stuff. 
Lately though, I've been seeing a whole lot of kick/thai boxing influences, and while I'd like to think new approaches are beneficial every now and then, as I see it the result is pretty much the same mistake the guys at the predominantly sparring-dominated dojo in my town are doing; trying to make taijutsu fit into a kickboxing perspective/mentality, give-and-take.


----------



## rutherford (Jun 30, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> And exactly why is that?


It's faith on my part.  I have faith that Soke and the Japanese Shihan know what was practiced and have shown it correctly.  I have faith that the people in between them to me have also learned the techniques accurately and have shown them to me correctly.

Of course, I have little faith that I caught half of what was shown, or have even minimal competence.  I also have faith that this will change with time and training.


			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Who says I haven't?


 Nobody.  However, you made the statement that you "haven't been taught _very much_ ninjutsu" - emphasis mine.  

By my questions, I'm trying to dig into what you mean by that and the reasons for it.  I expect you know a lot more people in the Bujinkan, and a lot more about the state of the Bujinkan.


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## mizu_teppo (Jun 30, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> mizu_teppo, would you say that people who go to Dave Furukawa, Dick Severance, or Greg Dilley would learn water techniques with a basis in Japan? If Shihan Severance showed you some stuff he learned in the military, would you ignore it because it wasn't Japanese?


 For the first question, that's something you'd have to personally discuss with the spoken teachers. And for the second question, that's completely besides the point we're trying to make here, so there's no point in answering it.


----------



## Mountain Kusa (Jun 30, 2005)

This thread is interesting indeed.

    One of my teachers and friends Thom Humphreys is constantly saying we are training in Japanese Jujutsu. This man has studied more arts than I have even heard of, trained in more and has a wide range of experience. What we might call one thing say Omote Gyakku, he can and will call it different things from several other arts. Sometimes in my conversations with him he will call a thing something that I have not heard of and he will have to back up and say you call it this in the Bujinkan. It is all blended together in him. 

Okay Chris so what is your point, many if not most of the techniques are in other arts, our weapons may be different, but the movement is there. Some arts or teachers never let you out of the box. meaning, create things from the katas or basic techniques. Or, do the same "principle" of a technique a different way. My point being that he has a broad range of knowledge that spans different arts. 

The question was asked one day of him, "if i am to get as knowledeable as you do I need to study all these arts?". He replied that everything you need is right here, but that you should have knowledge of these other arts. How they do things get into things etc. Sensei has said the same thing.

So this brings me to Budo. What exactly is Budo. From my own perspective, it is about your own personal journey, improving yourself in the martial arts at every opportunity, trying not to make a mistake that you made yesterday today, and becoming a person that can walk through life and make the right decisions when presented with an opportunity. Doing this not only for the time that you might have to employ these techniques against another human(s) being, but for the time that you might need to put your life on the line for someone else or group, because no one else can or even will whether they have the skill or not. 

  For me, Budo taijutsu means working at every opportunity to be able to use my body better, and attain a piece of mind that just maybe, I will be better at this today than i was yesterday. All this while walking a life worthy of a man. 

    Ninjutsu is a whole 'nother thing. But, we need to employ the principles to todays more modern weapons and times. Ninja / ninpo / whatever one wants to call it, is about endureing and persevering our challenges each day. So, in a watered down way, as applied to budo taijutsu, accepting the challenges presented, enduring and persevering them, and most of all keep going. This is why in a previous post i said to me it is more about the mentalness, this is combined with the physicalness. 

Anyway, this is my perspective at this time, tomorrow it may change, even in as little time as the next post here, but then, that is budo to me.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 30, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> It's faith on my part. I have faith that Soke and the Japanese Shihan know what was practiced and have shown it correctly. I have faith that the people in between them to me have also learned the techniques accurately and have shown them to me correctly.


Good for you if it's all legit. It's well known that the Japanese tend to choose what to teach to which people at what time, because different people have different "needs". I'm still not convinced that the stuff you're talking about originated in Japan though. And does it really take up a substantial amount of time from your training curriculum, enough so that you feel you can safely say that your main focus is ninjutsu, and not taijutsu?




			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> Nobody. However, you made the statement that you "haven't been taught _very much_ ninjutsu" - emphasis mine.


There are also a lot of things I have been taught that I haven't spoken about here. Just as with everyone else.


----------



## rutherford (Jun 30, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I'm still not convinced that the stuff you're talking about originated in Japan though.  And does it really take up a substantial amount of time from your training curriculum, enough so that you feel you can safely say that your main focus is ninjutsu, and not taijutsu?


I think I've been clear about the amount of training I have received and how much time I've spent working at it. 

As for the use of the term Ninjutsu, it's not an issue for me.  I'm comfortable enough just understanding how different people use the term and I'll try to match my usage to the people around.

I don't think the definitions are anywhere near as clear as you'd like.  I also believe language in general is more about usage than definition.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 30, 2005)

There's probably gonna be some problems in the future if Hatsumi sensei decides to start teaching actual ninjutsu to any large extent...

Funny. I can't type with three of my left fingers today.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 30, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> There's probably gonna be some problems in the future if Hatsumi sensei decides to start teaching actual ninjutsu to any large extent...


Why?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 30, 2005)

I was thinking along the terms of definition issues.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 30, 2005)

Oh

Ok.


----------



## Mountain Kusa (Jun 30, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> There's probably gonna be some problems in the future if Hatsumi sensei decides to start teaching actual ninjutsu to any large extent...
> 
> .


What problems do you see forthcoming? Not withstanding the definitions.


----------



## rutherford (Jun 30, 2005)

mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> For the first question, that's something you'd have to personally discuss with the spoken teachers. And for the second question, that's completely besides the point we're trying to make here, so there's no point in answering it.



Actually, I think you're completely wrong.

In the first question, networking is how we pass information.  Perhaps we don't use the internet to teach the local bar crowd stuff they shouldn't know.  But passing on the names of teachers who can show authentic students the way to knowledge is a goal few can gainsay.  If you're going to say that water-based ninjutsu in the Bujinkan is mostly non-japanese in origin and I give you three examples of teachers in America I've heard are capable of a pure tansmission, you can't just brush that aside.  The training is out there, if you seek it.

The second question is right to the heart of the matter.  Are you of the opinion that what you call ninjutsu is entirely made up of techniques that have Japanese names?  If so, I don't think you have any idea of the philosophy that is the core of ninpo.  That there are so many people in the Bujinkan is a monument to the survival of the dojo and its teachings.  That Hatsumi's teachings change from year to year as his students grow and the world around changes is a perfect example of the adaptation of this living art.

If something new comes along that is better suited to today, something that just plain works better - that is ninjustu.  That is the way of survival. 

Am I wrong?

I may not be able to tell the difference between what works for me and what is best.  I understand the caveats.  But tell me that I'm wrong about the core.


----------



## mizu_teppo (Jun 30, 2005)

Uh.. for the first question again, saying that water-based ninjutsu in the Bujinkan is mostly non-japanese in origin is completely wrong. This kind of applies to the second question as well. You need to understand that ninjutsu is a japanese art. It must have it's roots lead back to Japan, bottom line. You can't take somethig else or make something up and call it ninjutsu. If that's what you're into, you might as well be studying with any of the neo-ninjers out there who make up their own stuff.

 As for the core of ninjutsu, I understand what you're saying, and it's a good idea to do just that for yourself in order to be the best you can be. But you can't (or atleast shouldn't) call that ninjutsu. It can be ninjutsu inside your heart, but to go around claiming it out in the open is a childish thing to do that can be misleading and in some cases dangerous. If what you're talking about is a historically verifiable ninjutsu technique, something that originated in Japan and is Japanese (I emphasize again that ninjutsu is a japanese martial art) then by all means go ahead and call it ninjutsu. But if you're going to take other good techniques and tell people that it's ninjutsu, then I'm sorry but you're no better than Ashida Kim or Frank Dux, regardless of how practical the technique is.

 I believe that people should seek out the best teachers they can find and learn as much practical things as they can, ninjutsu or not, and train to their hearts content. But that is not the question here.

 I don't understand why some people are so interested in labelling as many things as they can "ninjutsu". It's just so childish. An apple will always be an apple, and an orange will always be an orange. But that doesn't mean that eating them both is not a good idea, because it clearly is a good idea.


----------



## Floating Egg (Jun 30, 2005)

Oranges cause cancer.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 30, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> Oranges cause cancer.


 Now _that_ is an impressive Ninja technique!

 Is ninjutsu a martial art, or is it something related to martial arts? (I think of it as the former.) Were people given a _menkyo_ in ninjutsu?


----------



## rutherford (Jun 30, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> Oranges cause cancer.



Does that mean you have absolutely no idea what he (sorry if I'm using the wrong pronoun, it's hard to be sure without a name I recognize) is talking about?

****
mizu_teppo, I'm glad you agree that you're completely wrong.





> As for people practicing "ninja" things like silent movement or water techniques... it's probably most definately military and/or western developed stuff.


And then later:





> Uh.. for the first question again, saying that water-based ninjutsu in the Bujinkan is mostly non-japanese in origin is completely wrong.


These statements seem to contradict each other.  What do you really mean?

For myself, I mean that there is definitely a water-based set of techniques.  I don't know why you brought them up, but whatever.  And, there is traditional training to be he had from several sources.  If some people aren't getting them, that's their deal.  It's always been a facat of our training that you have to go out and take the knowledge that you want.  It does not come for free on a silver plate.

As for comparing adapting new techniques to your existing foundation of taijutsu to garbage made up by Ashida Kim . . . well, I'll let my negative rep comment speak for itself. 

Soke has been very clear that his choice for replacement may not necessarily be Japanese.  Ninjutsu has its foundation in Japan.  It is beyond question that the best training is available in Japan.  However, the way of survival is not locked in the past.  

When we train with guns, you should set aside the black powder and pick up something modern.  

Interesting to see how the word Ninjutsu is being used in our side conversation.  How does this translate to the original topic of the word Ninja?  Is it also a living term, or does it only describe people from the past?


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## rutherford (Jun 30, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Now _that_ is an impressive Ninja technique!
> 
> Is ninjutsu a martial art, or is it something related to martial arts? (I think of it as the former.) Were people given a _menkyo_ in ninjutsu?


I'm going to be very general, to try and stay correct.  As you get closer to specifics, things become more open to debate.

Well, the Bujinkan is made up of several schools.  Some of them are Ninja and some are Samurai.  Currently, you do not get ranked in any particular school.  You get belt rankings within the Bujinkan dojo.  A very highly ranked person may not know a single thing about a whole school of teaching.  This is common.

Now, Menkyo is a bit different.  Throughout history, Menkyo have been given out for a particular school.

But, Ninjutsu??  Well, we can't even agree on what the word means.


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 1, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> These statements seem to contradict each other.  What do you really mean?


 You're not reading close enough. The second quote says water-based *ninjutsu*. Anything ninjutsu cannot be non-japanese in origin, which is why I said that was wrong. For the first quote I was just saying that people often teach thing labelled incorrectly, using water techniques from the military as a possible example.



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> For myself, I mean that there is definitely a water-based set of techniques. I don't know why you brought them up, but whatever. And, there is traditional training to be he had from several sources. If some people aren't getting them, that's their deal. It's always been a facat of our training that you have to go out and take the knowledge that you want. It does not come for free on a silver plate.


I'm not argueing what's available here. I'm argueing how things get labelled (or mis-labelled that is). So.. I don't know why you wrote that, or what you're reffering to by "traditional training".



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> How does this translate to the original topic of the word Ninja? Is it also a living term, or does it only describe people from the past?


 Since ninja were primarily a specialised agent of a class of people in Japan, then I believe it most definately describes something of the past. Unless I've been out of the loop and things in Japan have gone back to the feudal system. Just as the samurai class died out, so did the ninja. And the only people who I believe have the right otherwise to call anyone or anything "ninja" would be someone like Soke or Seno Shihan. Besides that, I take anyone who mentions themselves as being ninja with a grain of salt and give them the Ashida Kim stamp. I'm sorry, but I just have no tolerance for people who are not honest with themselves.

 What were we argueing about again?


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## Kizaru (Jul 1, 2005)

Back to the start of the thread...



			
				Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> I was talking to XXX Shidoshi today (he is of the Bujinkan) and i asked him the all important question. *"Do you consider yourself a ninja?"* and said he has been a ninja for 15 years. he went on to say that anybody who studies ninjutsu is a ninja. now my thinkig was since Takamatsu O'sensei was the last ninja ......Do you guys agree with that? I'm confused.


I've thought of that "all important question" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 myself too. When the _Saigo no Jissen Ninja_ DVD was released, I asked one of the senior Japanese shihan in Japan about it; specifically, the title. His response was, "Takamatsu sensei learned these things when he was young and used them to avoid being killed and to kill others when he had to. That makes him a real _budoka_. I have not lived my life like that...I wouldn't even call myself a  _budoka._" 

I really enjoyed that conversation; I think there was alot more to it than just what was being said at the surface. 

My own opinion on the above question is this; we may practice the arts, but the days of the samurai and ninja are long gone. If I were to tell someone in Japan that I were a "ninja" that would be like me walking up to another American and saying, "Hey! I'm a member of the Fantastic Four!" So what am I? What do I "call" myself? I'm just a guy doing my best to maintain a positive attitude and make the most of every day. What do we call that???  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   :asian:


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## Mountain Kusa (Jul 1, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Back to the start of the thread...
> 
> 
> I've thought of that "all important question" http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif myself too. When the _Saigo no Jissen Ninja_ DVD was released, I asked one of the senior Japanese shihan in Japan about it; specifically, the title. His response was, "Takamatsu sensei learned these things when he was young and used them to avoid being killed and to kill others when he had to. That makes him a real _budoka_. I have not lived my life like that...I wouldn't even call myself a _budoka._"
> ...


Very exellently said !!!!!

As I look back on my past since I started in this art I can proudly say I have not been In one real fight since I started. One minor altercation when I used a 30.06 rifle as a hanbo, but that was as a 9th kyu. "Katate Ori" 

As for what I call myself, "Hi, my name is Chris, Care to train? 

Excellent post, Excellent post!!


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## rutherford (Jul 1, 2005)

mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> You're not reading close enough. The second quote says water-based *ninjutsu*. Anything ninjutsu cannot be non-japanese in origin, which is why I said that was wrong. For the first quote I was just saying that people often teach thing labelled incorrectly, using water techniques from the military as a possible example.


I'm of the opposite opinion.  I think that clearing a jammed rifle, or putting a mine on a boat, and a whole ton of other stuff is definitely contained within Ninjutsu.

Furthermore, I think that the attitude that this stuff is not within Ninjutsu is what leads people to say patently false things like "The Bujinkan is just a bunch of reenactment enthusiasts."





			
				mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> I'm not argueing what's available here. I'm argueing how things get labelled (or mis-labelled that is). So.. I don't know why you wrote that, or what you're reffering to by "traditional training".
> 
> . . .
> 
> What were we argueing about again?


We are arguing about what is contained within Ninjutsu.  I say there are techniques with historical accuracy.  These are certainly to be valued.  There is a lot of integrity in this training, and even skills that some might consider esoteric have a personal value in being learned, can be effective if applied, and one should not limit the lessons learned to the specific task.  We train for living, and everything is connected.

There are also modern skills and principles which may not have Japanese roots.  

The problem with people like Ashida Kim is they lie about the roots of what they teach.  They also teach stuff that is patently false, ineffective, and dangerous in the extreme to the idiot who believes in it.

I don't train with frauds because they lack integrity.  Even if Ashida Kim really could teleport, I wouldn't seek him as authentic source for learning.  A proper heart is also contained within Ninjutsu.

Mountain Kusa, Kizaru, I totally agree.  The training is what's important.  We should all seek to build authentic, effective skills and learn from people of integrity.  "Thanks, Chris, I'd love to train.  I'm Jason.  I did some Bo work this morning, and I'm looking forward to find out what tomorrow's class will be like.  I'm going in with an empty tea cup."


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 1, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> I'm of the opposite opinion. I think that clearing a jammed rifle, or putting a mine on a boat, and a whole ton of other stuff is definitely contained within Ninjutsu.


No. It's related to the same type of tactics that ninjutsu encompasses, but it isn't ninjutsu. Not if you couldn't find it 500 years ago in Japan anyway.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 1, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Not if you couldn't find it 500 years ago in Japan anyway.


So... 

We are just preserving japanese history and nothing more? We are a glorified SCA or renfair?  The art is not growing, evolving or adapting to its times?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 1, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> So...
> 
> We are just preserving japanese history and nothing more? We are a glorified SCA or renfair? The art is not growing, evolving or adapting to its times?


Preserving??? Ordinary practitioners like you and me????

Come back when Hatsumi sensei has taught ninjutsu indepth to such a large extent that the knowledge is readily available to all practitioners (as in "kihon happo-like" available), then we'll talk...

As has been said time and again, the methods of ninjutsu were adapted to feudal-age Japan - you MIGHT for instance attract a bit more attention dressing up as a 16th century Japanese drunkard in the present day and age than back then. *And this is the reason Hatsumi sensei doesn't teach much ninjutsu, but focuses on taijutsu and bukiwaza.*


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## Cryozombie (Jul 1, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Preserving??? Ordinary practitioners like you and me????


I meant in the art as a whole. 



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> As has been said time and again, the methods of ninjutsu were adapted to feudal-age Japan - you MIGHT for instance attract a bit more attention dressing up as a 16th century Japanese drunkard in the present day and age than back then. *And this is the reason Hatsumi sensei doesn't teach much ninjutsu, but focuses on taijutsu and bukiwaza.*


So were the methods of Taijutsu. No one walks around in Samurai armor anymore... and while its easy to adapt the techniques to a motorcycle helmet or Kevlar vest  I point out your earlier statement:



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Not if you couldn't find it 500 years ago in Japan anyway.


so that would mean... what exactly? Combat methods are free to evolve but Ninjutsu techniques are not???? Whats the difference between dressing like a 16th century drunkard back then and a 20th century one now? Or say a Priest to blend in in a church, as opposed to a monk to blend into a monestary...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 1, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I meant in the art as a whole.


I probably should have expressed myself a bit more clearly, sorry for that. My point was, there's not very much knowledge of ninjutsu available for people like you and me to preserve. Maybe one day, when our taijutsu is good enough...who knows?




			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> So were the methods of Taijutsu. No one walks around in Samurai armor anymore... and while its easy to adapt the techniques to a motorcycle helmet or Kevlar vest...


Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't notice that the subject at hand had changed from ninjutsu to taijutsu. My bad.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> so that would mean... what exactly?


I'm inclined to be a bit more "liberal" in regards to taijutsu evolving, mainly because people tend to know a whole lot more about taijutsu than ninjutsu. Hatsumi sensei has stated several times that he feels it is better to learn the handling of explosives and disguise and impersonation etc. in the military (or for that matter, in an acting class) because the methods used in feudal Japan are outdated. And yes, that means the knowledge can and may be adapted from Japanese to western culture. But until Hatsumi sensei starts talking about such things regularly, to the point that he's willing to having it taught to everyone, I'm sticking with perfecting my taijutsu.


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 1, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> I'm of the opposite opinion.


 Then we're going to have to agree to disagree. While I understand your view, I don't agree with it for one simple reason: neither you nor I have the proper authority to decide how ninjutsu should evolve and what modern methods it should encompass. While it's a good idea to study modern practical means in the "essence" of ninjutsu, those methods are not ninjutsu skills, but rather other skills we believe would help our development in relation to what we feel is the essence of ninjutsu technique. That's how I feel anyway, if you need to label things ninja or ninjutsu, then go ahead. But it's not a good idea to be public about it (esspecially off the internet) for the danger of misleading others who may share an opposite viewpoint. 

 I think I've said everything that I needed to say in this thread.


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## blood shadow (Dec 31, 2007)

who has studied ninjutsu in the bujinkan to become a real ninja? the whole idea is a joke real ninja are long gone.


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## Kichigai-no-Okami (Jan 2, 2008)

blood shadow said:


> who has studied ninjutsu in the bujinkan to become a real ninja? the whole idea is a joke real ninja are long gone.


If you feel that way, then .......(reading your bio).


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 22, 2008)

Real ninjas are not long gone. Since Hatsumi is the heir of a ninja tradition, then those who train under him and his students or those who are well-versed within the ninjutsu traditions (juhhakei, hachimon, etc.) as outlined by soke would technically be real ninjas. Now, the role and prominence of real ninjas within society may have inevitably changed over time, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist anymore. There are plenty of real ninjas in the bujinkan and their offshoots, provided that they adhere to the Juhhakei and all of that good stuff. It also depends on what your definition of a "real ninja" is...


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## kenjutsushi (Jan 22, 2008)

blood shadow said:


> who has studied ninjutsu in the bujinkan to become a real ninja? the whole idea is a joke real ninja are long gone.



It's just my opinion but I think that's like saying there are no more patriots because we don't wear powdered wigs or shoot muskets.  The times are different but the essence is the same.  I've met enough high level Bujinkan practitioners who use what they've learned in the Bujinkan daily in there line of work.  To me that makes them at least modern ninja!  For the record I practice BBT but don't consider myself a ninja since I don't use it everyday.  Using it and practicing it is not the same thing.


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## Ronnin (Jan 23, 2008)

I know this, Hatsumi sensei has stated once you reach the level of godan (5th Dan) you can consider yourself a ninja.
Me personally, I think being a ninja is and was more a state of mind and awareness then anything else. A thousand years ago you had farmers who were ninja, and samurai from samurai clans that also worked as spies with "special techniques" at his disposal (ninja). I think someone today who is one with his surroundings be it jungle, desert, or city, understands his purpose, and presents himself beffiting a ninja, can call himself one. I do not think you have to kill someone secretly, dressed in black to think, live, and learn ninja.


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## Ronnin (Jan 23, 2008)

Floating Egg said:


> Well, I think we can all agree than language is ambiguous, and that it changes over time. I consider Ninja and Samurai historical terms, and I use them in the appropriate context.


 
I very much agree with your statement.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 23, 2008)

by defining yourself, you only limit yourself.  i think ninjutsu or ninpo is not about limiting yourself.  
  of course we must find some definitions or come to some conclusions at times, but it is the very choices we make that govern us.
traditionally, ninja is known to be able to freely change his shape and blend with nature.  -changing his shape- so im thinking he can even turn into his true form if so desired!  but of course the ninja is mostly invisible NOT when he is in the form of a blackclad ninja-unless he be undetected against the black of the night.
and if the nights blackness be likened to the truth, the ninja is indeed invisible.



j


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## kenjutsushi (Jan 23, 2008)

The best technique the ninja ever had was to make people believe that they don't exist anymore!!!  :deadhorse


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## Dale Seago (Jan 23, 2008)

kenjutsushi said:


> The best technique the ninja ever had was to make people believe that they don't exist anymore!!! :deadhorse


 
Quote from Dr. Abraham Van Helsing in the novel Dracula:

"The power of the vampire lies in that no one will believe that he exists."

Works for ninja too. . .


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 24, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> by defining yourself, you only limit yourself. i think ninjutsu or ninpo is not about limiting yourself.
> of course we must find some definitions or come to some conclusions at times, but it is the very choices we make that govern us.
> traditionally, ninja is known to be able to freely change his shape and blend with nature. -changing his shape- so im thinking he can even turn into his true form if so desired! but of course the ninja is mostly invisible NOT when he is in the form of a blackclad ninja-unless he be undetected against the black of the night.
> and if the nights blackness be likened to the truth, the ninja is indeed invisible.


 
Knowledge and understanding of self is important. I've had problems with it myself in the past, because I've long identified myself as a short, stocky, mustachioed Italian plumber from Brooklyn with white gloves and a big red cap with the letter "M" in front.


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## rutherford (Jan 24, 2008)

It's interesting how time changes one's opinions, and how one would respond to certain situations.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 26, 2008)

Shaolinwind said:


> I know, and it sucks because I have to resort to the A-Team when I need covert work done. Hannibal is such a smug ***.


 
You use the A-Team as well? I thought I was the only one that used them. There hard to find, I mean all those disguises that they use. And B.A. he's a moody guy isn't he?


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