# Korean Karate Master?



## scottie (Aug 21, 2010)

It is amazing what we can learn by accident on you tube.


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## rlp271 (Aug 22, 2010)

Oyama was Korean born, but was definitely Japanese bred.  There's a lot of discussion/argument about this.  He went to Japan to be a fighter pilot, considered himself Japanese, and kept his Karate Japanese.  The training he received as a child wasn't very formal, and no one is positive what he learned.  There has been a lot of guessing.  He was proud to have been born Korean, but always considered Japan home.  Issues of identity are interesting, and they are very difficult to deal with.  

I'm a Korean born adoptee who grew up doing Okinawan Karate in the US and is now living in Korea doing Japanese Karate (Kyokushin) and practicing my own Isshinryu Karate privately.  It creates a lot of questions among older Korean people about why I don't do a Korean martial art, because my blood is Korean.  It can make life interesting haha.

You could look on a few other forums, the argument about Oyama's Koreanness has been discussed a lot.  You could probably Google it, and find quite a lot written about it.  If you're interested that is.  I myself consider Oyama and his Karate to be Japanese, because while he was Korean born, and loved Korea, he still called Japan home and felt it was his rightful place.


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## scottie (Aug 22, 2010)

I just thought that was a interesting fact. I know very little about that art.


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## dancingalone (Aug 22, 2010)

General Choi asked Oyama to move to Korea and accept a huge role as the face of Choi's nationalistic tae kwon do.  Oyama ultimately refused the opportunity, and this was no small statement of his commitment to the Japanese culture instead.  He could have become something like a Chuck Norris or a Bruce Lee in Korea's national consciousness if he had partnered with General Choi.


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## Omar B (Aug 22, 2010)

Can you imagine the art that would have resulted from Oyama teaching Choi's TKD?  It would look quite different today, less kicks maybe, less hopping, more brutal.  I'm glad he stayed Japanese.


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## rlp271 (Aug 22, 2010)

It was definitely a statement on his commitment to Japan, but I wonder if their personalities could have meshed.  They were both big personalities, and I'm betting both liked being top dog.  General Choi invited Oyama to join HIM, not the other way around.  I'm betting in that situation, Oyama would have had to play second fiddle, not something he would be willing to do.  Especially after all the work he put in to be regarded as such a great fighter.  His reputation remains today, and some of the crazier stories (bull killing anyone?) are still around and still believed by many.  Not just that, but with the politics in Taekwondo already getting sticky, I wonder if Oyama would have remained as important as he is today.  Kyokushin, from what I understand, is among the more popular styles of Karate outside the United States.  

All that is pure speculation of course, but I definitely agree that Oyama made the right decision for himself, and for his martial art by staying in Japan.

@Omar B.: I don't know how much things would have changed.  Kyokushin has a lot of very athletic kicks in it.  They had the wheel kick, their sacrifice kicks require a lot of athleticism.  If he had decided to move his style to Korea, he likely would have lost the Goju-ryu kata, and the kobudo.  From what I understand most Kyokushin schools have taken the kobudo out already.  It would look different, but I don't know if the fighting would have changed.  The only real difference in rules way back then was that the Korean fighters wore bogu, the Kyokushin fighters did not.  Both styles still concentrated on knockout techniques.  The soft hogu and electronic scoring are what really changed Taekwondo.  At least, that's what I've been told.


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## Omar B (Aug 22, 2010)

I'm pretty sure you guys have seen this but It's worth posting again.  






I find it funny.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 23, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> The only real difference in rules way back then was that the Korean fighters wore bogu, the Kyokushin fighters did not. Both styles still concentrated on knockout techniques. The soft hogu and electronic scoring are what really changed Taekwondo. At least, that's what I've been told.


Not sure when TKD instituted hogu, but Choi's TKD and to my knowledge, modern ITF rules as well, do not make use of bogu. I don't think that the WTF instituted it until some time in the seventies, possibly eighties, as part of making the 'game' more olympic friendly.  My early experiences with taekwondo were hogu-less.

For a long time, taekwondo practitioners competed primarily in karate tournaments like everyone else.

Daniel


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## OldKarateGuy (Aug 24, 2010)

Perhaps off-topic, but this is a video compilation of a series of Kyokushin-kai knock-outs with kicks. Almost every kick is represented, and it's very instructive. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/3rdDan4Life#p/f/27/a5aMtvFBETA

Does anyone know why kyokushin does not allow head punches? Someone told me that Oyama thought such were ineffectual. Can that be correct?


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## Manny (Aug 24, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not sure when TKD instituted hogu, but Choi's TKD and to my knowledge, modern ITF rules as well, do not make use of bogu. I don't think that the WTF instituted it until some time in the seventies, possibly eighties, as part of making the 'game' more olympic friendly. My early experiences with taekwondo were hogu-less.
> 
> For a long time, taekwondo practitioners competed primarily in karate tournaments like everyone else.
> 
> Daniel


 
Back in the 80's we at Ji Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do only use (if wanted) shin pads and that's all, and back in those days the name of the MA was Korean Karate, Tae Kwon Do was new name that not every one knew those days so tht's the way to get the regular people on it.

Yes, in tournaments we used hogus, the cup protector and the shin pads but that was by regulation but in the dojangs as I said only whin pads.

The hogu,helmet,forearm pads, the gloves and the mouth protector was because the olimpic comitee dictates that.

In ITF TKD they use the cup, gloves and boots and that's all.

Manny


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## rlp271 (Aug 24, 2010)

Ok, now I'm wondering, when were bogu used?  I know I've seen photos of Park Dong Geun before he was a kwanjangnim in competition in the mid-1960s wearing one.  The soft hogu, I have no idea when that was developed.

As far as the ITF, you're absolutely correct, they don't use hogu, and didn't use bogu, which actually closes the gap between Kyokushin sparring and ITF sparring even more.  Oyama visited Korea in 1967 correct?  That's the date I've seen given on a few websites.  Verification on that would be great.

As far as face punching in Kyokushin, I've heard a ton of different reasons for it not being included.  I don't think Oyama believed it was ineffective.  If anything, he may have thought it was too effective.  A lot of matches that included bare knuckle face punching probably ended very quickly, with a lot of blood, and weren't useful for keeping competitions going.  If they didn't end that way, they were probably pretty boring, with both fighters staying away for a lot of the time, moving in to throw a single technique, and then backing back out.  The possibility of hurting your hand, especially cutting it on someone's tooth is also very real.  Just a guess, but those things were probably taken into account.  You still get pretty brutal matches, and as the video shows, great knockouts, without face punching.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 24, 2010)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Perhaps off-topic, but this is a video compilation of a series of Kyokushin-kai knock-outs with kicks. Almost every kick is represented, and it's very instructive.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/3rdDan4Life#p/f/27/a5aMtvFBETA
> 
> Does anyone know why kyokushin does not allow head punches? Someone told me that Oyama thought such were ineffectual. Can that be correct?


My guess is not that he thought that it was ieffectual, but more that he wanted to differentiate Kyokushin tournaments from other tournaments.  The WTF restricts punches to the torso and promotes high kicks specifically to differentiate their tournaments from the karate tournaments of the day.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 24, 2010)

Manny said:


> Back in the 80's we at Ji Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do only use (if wanted) shin pads and that's all, and back in those days the name of the MA was Korean Karate, Tae Kwon Do was new name that not every one knew those days so tht's the way to get the regular people on it.
> 
> Yes, in tournaments we used hogus, the cup protector and the shin pads but that was by regulation but in the dojangs as I said only whin pads.
> 
> ...


Eighties sounds about right.  That was when the movement towards olympic inclusion was gaining momentum and also when martial arts began being marketed as fitness alternatives and as family friendly activities.  Prior to that, there was not any inclination to wear it.  I do not believe that any tournaments mandated hogo prior to the eighties (I could be mistaken) and most definitely not in the late sixties.  I am not sure that it even existed commercially until the eighties.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Aug 24, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My guess is not that he thought that it was ieffectual, but more that he wanted to differentiate Kyokushin tournaments from other tournaments.  The WTF restricts punches to the torso and promotes high kicks specifically to differentiate their tournaments from the karate tournaments of the day.



During the sixties, no small type gloves existed like the MMA gloves available now.  You could either use the boxing gloves which are heavy and inevitably alter punching technique to the detriment of the classical karate thrust or you could go without protective hand gear  entirely which is obviously a no-go from a safety standpoint (and likely a legal one too).

IMO that is why kyokushin has no head punches.  They wanted to keep the style of punching karate-based but obviously needed to address some safety concerns.


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## Omar B (Aug 24, 2010)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Perhaps off-topic, but this is a video compilation of a series of Kyokushin-kai knock-outs with kicks. Almost every kick is represented, and it's very instructive.
> http://www.youtube.com/user/3rdDan4Life#p/f/27/a5aMtvFBETA
> Does anyone know why kyokushin does not allow head punches? Someone told me that Oyama thought such were ineffectual. Can that be correct?



He had a high drop out rate because people didn't want to show up to work with black eyes.  He also wanted to maintain the bare knuckle approach.


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## Martin h (Nov 12, 2010)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Does anyone know why kyokushin does not allow head punches? Someone told me that Oyama thought such were ineffectual. Can that be correct?



Oyama once killed a man with one punch to the head (a court of law found him to have acted in self defense, as the guy pulled a knife and was known to be willing to use it, so he got off scot-free) -so I kind of doubt he believed punches to the head was ineffective.
Possibly the reverse.

The reasons headpunches was not allowed was a combination of:
1. High injury and dropout rates during training. Dental surgery back in those days was not what it is today.

2. Estimated low numbers of fighters entering tournaments (you could say that the 1st world tournament with its 128 fighters would realy have been a elimination tournament.
By the final you would not look pretty.

3. (maybe most important) Laws in Japan at the time set in place to stop bare knuckle boxing. "No headpunches" neatly bypassed those laws.

4. Oyama believed the big heavy boxing gloves of the day (there was no small mma gloves available) changed punching and blocking fundamentally.


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## Maiden_Ante (Nov 14, 2010)

Sigh. Nationality, nationality. It shouldn't limit what martial art you do, or your interests.


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

Maiden_Ante said:


> Sigh. Nationality, nationality. It shouldn't limit what martial art you do, or your interests.


It is amazing that people will make a fuss over a Korean being a karate master but know one cares that a white guy isn't learning European fencing or boxing.


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## Maiden_Ante (Nov 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> It is amazing that people will make a fuss over a Korean being a karate master but know one cares that a white guy isn't learning European fencing or boxing.



Agreed! I've lately found myself thinking about the Taijing symbol when trying to define the meaning of my actions. I do think the people here make good arguments however, not getting glued to one or another fundamental view of what "belongs to whom".


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## puunui (Dec 12, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> E I do not believe that any tournaments mandated hogo prior to the eighties (I could be mistaken) and most definitely not in the late sixties.  I am not sure that it even existed commercially until the eighties.



The first hogu were brought to Korea from Japan during an exchange trip in January 1961. The Korean Team brought back four hogu back to Korea. Soon thereafter, hogu became mandatory equipment at all KTA tournaments in Korea, along with shin and forearm guards, and cups. The AAU (predecessor to the USTU) required the use of hogu from the very first US National Taekwondo Championships held in 1975. Head gear became mandatory in 1986 for USTU and WTF, after a competitor in Florida fell during a tournament, hit his head, and subsequently died.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 13, 2010)

puunui said:


> The first hogu were brought to Korea from Japan during an exchange trip in January 1961. The Korean Team brought back four hogu back to Korea. Soon thereafter, hogu became mandatory equipment at all KTA tournaments in Korea, along with shin and forearm guards, and cups. The AAU (predecessor to the USTU) required the use of hogu from the very first US National Taekwondo Championships held in 1975. Head gear became mandatory in 1986 for USTU and WTF, after a competitor in Florida fell during a tournament, hit his head, and subsequently died.


Thanks for the info.  I had never seen a hogu until probably the late eighties or early ninties.

Daniel


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## Mushinto (Apr 12, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> It is amazing that people will make a fuss over a Korean being a karate master ....


 
Even funnier considering that most Japanese karate styles were started by Okinawans.

ML


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## Master Dan (Apr 12, 2011)

rlp271 said:


> Oyama was Korean born, but was definitely Japanese bred. There's a lot of discussion/argument about this. He went to Japan to be a fighter pilot, considered himself Japanese, and kept his Karate Japanese. The training he received as a child wasn't very formal, and no one is positive what he learned. There has been a lot of guessing. He was proud to have been born Korean, but always considered Japan home. Issues of identity are interesting, and they are very difficult to deal with.
> 
> I'm a Korean born adoptee who grew up doing Okinawan Karate in the US and is now living in Korea doing Japanese Karate (Kyokushin) and practicing my own Isshinryu Karate privately. It creates a lot of questions among older Korean people about why I don't do a Korean martial art, because my blood is Korean. It can make life interesting haha.
> 
> You could look on a few other forums, the argument about Oyama's Koreanness has been discussed a lot. You could probably Google it, and find quite a lot written about it. If you're interested that is. I myself consider Oyama and his Karate to be Japanese, because while he was Korean born, and loved Korea, he still called Japan home and felt it was his rightful place.


 
You seem to have knowledge of Oyama at least book or print? I am wondering if you or anyone has real information on his death. My life long GM was a prominent student of his and also world renouned in Judo in his day, he had a different account for his death than what is published on Wikipedia. He called Oyama his 1st cousin however terms like brother cousin uncle grand father are terms that are used among indiginous peoples with out actual genect ties. He did train in japan and always talked with a fond respect for thier training ethics, it certainly had an impact on our TKD training. In the early 70's we advertised as Korean Karate but as Olympic TKD took hold the advertising switched to TKD as primary with Hapkido and Judo mentions.


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## Martin h (May 17, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> You seem to have knowledge of Oyama at least book or print? I am wondering if you or anyone has real information on his death.



Masutatsu Oyamas death?
He died due to lung cancer (non smoker, crap sometimes just happen, esp if you live in a air-polluted city). That is no mystery, and a well documented fact. 
I have never heard of any other alternate explanations.

There are plenty of theories about what happened in the hospital before he died (inlcuding Yakuza rumors) and the much contested "will" that eventually made kyokushin fracture into multiple factions each claiming to be the "real" one, but none that claim he died from anything but cancer.


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## Martin h (May 17, 2011)

rlp271 said:


> The training he received as a child wasn't very formal, and no one is positive what he learned.  There has been a lot of guessing.



He discussed it in a interview once (dont ask me to find it, it was years since I saw it). He said that he trained "korean wrestling" (most likely Ssirum(sp?)  -korean sumo) mostly as childsplay, and that he received a few months tutoring in chinese kempo (he used the common japanese term for kungfu) while staying at a relatives farm, from a non-korean farmhand. He said that from what he remembered, the Kempo form mostly involved elbow techniques.

That was the extent of his training before arriving in Japan, where he first did a (very) little boxing and then a lot of karate (first shotokan, then gojuryu), with a fair amount of judo and aiki-jutsu thrown in for good measure.
He may have other influences here and there, but this is the extent of what he claimed to have trained.


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## K-man (May 17, 2011)

rlp271 said:


> *Omar B* : _"Can you imagine the art that would have resulted from Oyama teaching Choi's TKD? It would look quite different today, less kicks maybe, less hopping, more brutal. I'm glad he stayed Japanese."_
> 
> *rip271* : I don't know how much things would have changed. Kyokushin has a lot of very athletic kicks in it. They had the wheel kick, their sacrifice kicks require a lot of athleticism. If he had decided to move his style to Korea, he likely would have lost the Goju-ryu kata, and the kobudo.


In the OP video it says that after studying Shotokan with Funakoshi he studied Goju Ryu (Chojun Miyagi). It was actually Goju Kai under Gogen Yamaguchi and as I understand it, he went there because it was Yamaguchi who introduced Ju Kumite into karate. Yamaguchi had little, if any training directly under Miyagi and this shows, not only in the changes in the training, but also the performance of kata. 

Kyokoshin have more kata than most other styles and these include the ones derived from Shotokan and Goju Kai. I can't speak for Shotokan but the Kyokoshin kata based on Goju Kai are changed a lot and are really quite unlike the Okinawan form. 

Not that this takes anything away from Kyokoshin. It is a hard style of karate but really quite different from the Okinawan styles that I have seen. Another interesting question might be, what if he had gone to Okinawa instead of mainland Japan? :asian:


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## Martin h (May 18, 2011)

K-man said:


> In the OP video it says that after studying Shotokan with Funakoshi he studied Goju Ryu (Chojun Miyagi). It was actually Goju Kai under Gogen Yamaguchi



The OP vid is more enthusiastic than accurate.



K-man said:


> and as I understand it, he went there because it was Yamaguchi who introduced Ju Kumite into karate.



He switched to Goju because of his personal friendship with SoNei Chu, a fellow korean national (I forget the name for koreans descendants living in Japan) who was a top level instructor (I dont remember who SoNei was taught by, but not by Gogen) in Goju in Japan at the time. 
Gogen Spent much of the war period posted in china/manchuria (when Oyama did the switch) and didnt return until 1947 (after some time as a POW), and SoNei basically ran his dojo while he was away.
After Sonei moved to Korea in the late 40ies, Oyama continued his studies under Yamagushi, who eventually graded him to 8th dan in the goju kai organization (created 1950).

And as for who invented kumite, that depends on who you ask. All styles seems to claim that honor.


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## K-man (May 19, 2011)

Martin h said:


> He switched to Goju because of his personal friendship with SoNei Chu, a fellow korean national (I forget the name for koreans descendants living in Japan) who was a top level instructor (I dont remember who SoNei was taught by, but not by Gogen) in Goju in Japan at the time.
> Gogen Spent much of the war period posted in china/manchuria (when Oyama did the switch) and didnt return until 1947 (after some time as a POW), and SoNei basically ran his dojo while he was away.
> After Sonei moved to Korea in the late 40ies, Oyama continued his studies under Yamagushi, who eventually graded him to 8th dan in the goju kai organization (created 1950).


What I found elsewhere:


> I do not have any personal knowledge of this, but reproduce for your information a passage from Cameron Quinn's book, "The Budo Karate of Mas Oyama."
> 
> "_*So Nei Chu*_
> _Master So was one of the highest authorities of Goju karate in Japan at that time. He was renowned for the power of his body, yet he was most distinctively a man of deep spiritual inclination, and indeed a man of rare character. This great teacher had a profound influence on the young Mas Oyama. A devotee of toth the Nichiren sect of Buddhism and the Martial Arts, Master So taught his new friend and student the inseparability of budo and the spiritual foundations of religion. After a few years of training Oyama, Master So advised his young student to make a firm commitment to dedicate his life to the Martial way:_
> _"You had better withdraw from the world. Seek solace in nature. Retreat to some lone mountain hideout to train your mind and body. In three years you will gain something immeasurable. As the proverb goes, "Temper the heated iron before it gets cold", so train yourself in self discipline before you grow older if you wish to be a great man". _​_Master So's words kindled the fire in Oyama's heart like no other. He resolved to face the challenges that lay ahead with all the vigour he could muster..."_.


I can't find any reference to So Nei Chu's original training in Goju apart from one reference that states he was Miyagi's most senior student and that is patently false. It is quite possible he was with Yamaguchi in the early days at university, pre-war, as that is when he ran the school for Yamaguchi. Other references tag him as Yamaguchi's student. By the time Oyama trained with him, he could have been with Yamaguchi the best part of 20 years. On the other hand, he could also have been a student of Jitsuei Yogi who was Yamaguchi's friend and teacher.

Just to clarify. Yamaguchi founded the Goju Kai in 1935, not 1950. It was officially called "The All Japan Karate-d&#333; G&#333;j&#363;-kai Karate-d&#333; Association". :asian:


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## chinto (May 19, 2011)

perhaps it is just what I have seen, but I am not a Kyokushin fan.  I study a couple of traditional Okinawan styles. I find that what I have seen of Kyokushin seems to have lost a lot from what the original okinawan teachings would have shown them.   

That is just my opinion... but it is mine.


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## K-man (May 19, 2011)

chinto said:


> perhaps it is just what I have seen, but I am not a Kyokushin fan. I study a couple of traditional Okinawan styles. I find that what I have seen of Kyokushin seems to have lost a lot from what the original okinawan teachings would have shown them.
> 
> That is just my opinion... but it is mine.


 I would agree totally with your opinion.   :asian:


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## punisher73 (May 19, 2011)

Just to add fuel to the fire and play a little devil's advocate.

From what I have read, the japanese won't admit that Mas Oyama _is _korean, they insist that he is japanese.  Due to their ethnocentric beliefs about Japan being superior to everyone else they won't accept that one of their foundational karate styles is anything but japanese.

I don't know if this view has changed in more modern times, but it was also in the reflection on their denial that karate was derived from a chinese source originally also.


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## Martin h (May 20, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Just to add fuel to the fire and play a little devil's advocate.
> 
> From what I have read, the japanese won't admit that Mas Oyama _is _korean, they insist that he is japanese.



I know for a fact, after communication with one of the daughters, that Oyama brought his family up to regard themselves as fully Japanese, and not as koreans. Apparently he didnt talk about his korean origin at home.


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## oftheherd1 (May 25, 2011)

Manny said:


> ...
> 
> and back in those days the name of the MA was Korean Karate, Tae Kwon Do was new name that not every one knew those days so tht's the way to get the regular people on it.
> ...


 
I'm new and looking at some of the older threads.  FWIW, I studied TKD under Jhoon Goo Rhee in the mid-60s when he only had one studio on the 3rd floor of a building at Connecticutt and S St in Washington, DC.  At that time he was definately calling his art Tae Kwan Do.  And those that were competing, were recognizing the fact that they needed more work with hands, as the Japanese Karate people could move in and score points with their hands, whereas our people, if they could maintain some distance, could more likely score points with kicks.

I think we all wore cups, but nothing else, whether at competitions or sparring in the studio.  What we were taught, was control; to stop the punch or kick just before making contact.  We were taught to stop farther out while sparring until our control was good enough to get closer.  Actually striking someone was considered very bad form, and in a competition could get you disqualified.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 25, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> I'm new and looking at some of the older threads. FWIW, I studied TKD under Jhoon Goo Rhee in the mid-60s when he only had one studio on the 3rd floor of a building at Connecticutt and S St in Washington, DC. At that time he was definately calling his art Tae Kwan Do. And those that were competing, were recognizing the fact that they needed more work with hands, as the Japanese Karate people could move in and score points with their hands, whereas our people, if they could maintain some distance, could more likely score points with kicks.


I know the place!  It was my first experience with taekwondo.  My folks took me there because I begged them to let me take 'karate' after seeing his commercial.  I still remember the phone number: USA-1000 (no area code needed back then).

Now the building houses Tai Yim's Kung Fu and his store, Flying Dragon Imports, which had previously been located on Georgia Avenue in Wheaton.  Used to go there for 'ninja stuff' in the eighties after high school let out.  That man and his staff sat there and answered every stupid question that I could think of to ask.  I still shop from him and he remembers me from all those years ago.

Lots of good memories from that location.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (May 25, 2011)

when i was stationed there in the late 80's, the ethnocentric attitude of the japanese was in full force.

but the koreans are no better, they still buy into the whole "TKD is 2000 years old" crapola

Same with the Chinese...


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 25, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> when i was stationed there in the late 80's, the ethnocentric attitude of the japanese was in full force.
> 
> but the koreans are no better, they still buy into the whole "TKD is 2000 years old" crapola
> 
> Same with the Chinese...


Actually, they do that out of humility: They thought that it might come across as bragging if they said that it only took them a couple of decades to put together a martial art that is that good. 

Daniel


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## Kong Soo Do (May 26, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Actually, they do that out of humility: They thought that it might come across as bragging if they said that it only took them a couple of decades to put together a martial art that is that good.
> 
> Daniel


 
Now that was funny


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