# Question regarding ATA Belt Testing



## ATAStudent83 (Oct 25, 2016)

I took my son and tried out a class at an ATA school last night. He is in the Tiny Tigers and I am in the Adult class. While asking questions last night I found that all the colored belts learn the same forms in class and take a belt promotion test every 3 months. So a white going for orange is going to do the same form progression as a brown going for red. Does this sound normal. In my experience the test is supposed to get harder as you progress but I have little experience with TKD


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## TrueJim (Oct 25, 2016)

I don't do ATA-style, but I thought the progression for ATA was this:

Songahm 1 - 18 moves, learned while a white belt
Songahm 2 - 23 moves, orange belt
Songahm 3 - 28 moves, yellow belt
Songahm 4 - 31 moves, camo belt
Songahm 5 - 34 moves, green belt
In Wha 1 - 44 moves, purple belt
In Wha 2 - 42 moves, blue belt
Choong Jung 1 - 44 moves, brown belt
Choong Jung 2 - 46 moves, red belt
ATA Taekwondo

So your son would be learning Songahm 1, while a brown belt would be learning Choong Jung 1.


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks and this is what I thought it should be but the school I went to last does it differently. I was told the movement I need to know for the December test is a sequence taken from Brown Belt. Its not the whole sequence though just roughly 12ish moves from that sequence. and This is what all colored belts need to know for promotion. My son only needs to know 5 moves but he is 5 and in the tiny tigers. I was off to the side learning the sequence with a black belt leadership program student and he disagreed with this philosophy but it wasn't his decision to make


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 25, 2016)

I just watched the Choong Jung 1 sequence and can confirm that this is the sequence being taught for belt testing but it its only about 20 seconds starting with the first high low block


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## TrueJim (Oct 25, 2016)

How interesting!  Maybe your school teaches just the first part of the poomsae first, then the school has you test on just that first part; then the school teaches you the second part of the poomsae, then has you test on just the first and second part, etc.?

Or do you suppose that you only have to learn just 12 of the 44 moves, and then you get promoted to red belt without knowing the entire poomsae?


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## msmitht (Oct 25, 2016)

Sounds easy for the teachers.one curriculum for all and not even the whole form. Lol. Doesn't matter the school or style. It is out of order and done for money's sake. Find a better school of any style and try and get out of your contract as soon as possible!!!!


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 25, 2016)

That's what I think. The teacher doesn't have to break everyone out by belts and teach the forms for each belt. If I stay with this school I will test for orange in December using 12 moves from the brown belt form.


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 25, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Sounds easy for the teachers.one curriculum for all and not even the whole form. Lol. Doesn't matter the school or style. It is out of order and done for money's sake. Find a better school of any style and try and get out of your contract as soon as possible!!!!



I'm not in a contract yet. They gave me 2 weeks free and if I decide to stay it will be a 6 month commitment. There is a school down the road that I believe is affiliated with WTF but I am not 100% sure


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## TrueJim (Oct 25, 2016)

ATAStudent83 said:


> That's what I think. The teacher doesn't have to break everyone out by belts and teach the forms for each belt. If I stay with this school I will test for orange in December using 12 moves from the brown belt form.



Oh I see what you're saying now!  How interesting!  Very peculiar though.

I don't know that I agree that this is necessarily being done just for money's sake. I'm not saying I _like_ this teaching approach, but I think the motivation could be something besides money. For example, maybe the teacher might be teaching it this way in order to create more "bonding" among the students: everybody's always learning the same things at the same time. Or maybe the teacher believes that forms aren't that important, but technique is, so he'd rather focus on just techniques and little snippets of forms are his way to reinforce the techniques currently being drilled.

That having been said though, I do think this approach will be _much_ harder for the students the long run. Like, eventually somebody somewhere is going to expect you as an orange belt to know the orange belt form...but you won't know it yet. And then by the time you do learn it, it'll be intermixed with a lot of other pieces of forms in your memory, so it'll be more difficult to remember which form is which. Also, this teaching style will make it more difficult to compete in forms competitions at tournaments. 

I'd try the WTF-style school down the road for a lesson or two and see how you like it; if it's horrible, you can always go back to the ATA school. What your ATA school is doing is certainly very peculiar.


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 25, 2016)

I made contact with the WTF school and we are checking them out on Saturday. I like the people at the ATA school. They were very nice but the curriculum didn't sit right with me. It seemed too easy and like belts every 3 months were automatic. I learned the entire form in less than 20 mins and that when I was told that's all I would need to know for promotion. I don't want belts handed to me or my son as it sets a bad example for him.


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## TrueJim (Oct 25, 2016)

I think you have the right philosophy. It's not like taekwondo has to be made excruciatingly difficult, but it also shouldn't be trivially easy. I started my son at age 5, he's 9 now, and taekwondo has done a lot for him in terms of teaching him to set challenging goals and then work hard to achieve them.


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## Kickboxer101 (Oct 25, 2016)

Best thing to do is talk to the instructor and ask these things and see what they say


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## itsrosa82 (Oct 25, 2016)

I am a Master Instructor with the ATA so I figured I would chime in on this one. I'd like to start by saying all ATA schools are independently owned and operated so the curriculum's content and the way it is taught at one school can be radically different from another school, even though they both may be ATA schools. 

In saying that, your school seems to be using a method of block teaching. Block teaching is where more than one rank learns the same form/material during a particular testing cycle (the 2 or 3 month period between one belt test and another). Some "blocks" in this teaching system incorporate just a couple of belts. Ours, for instance, blocks the white, orange and yellow belts together. They rotate through the material for these three belts and when a student has completed these 3 belts they will have done all the material required by us for the completion of this program, although some people may have learned this material out of order. Some schools create larger "blocks", like the one you are looking at. There is really no right or wrong answer as to how the material is presented. This is based on personal preference and what the instructor in charge thinks is best for his students. 

When it comes to learning partial forms, there are reasons for that as well.  Some schools don't teach full forms because they are more interested in other aspects of training and feel that lowering the memorization requirements can help in other avenues of training. I know of schools that feel that technique is better served by working less on form memorization and more on quality of individual movements. Some schools may have more of a focus on self defense or sparring and that could be a reason for less emphasis on the memorization of forms. This, again, is based on the owner of the school and what their goals are for their students. 

There is really no right or wrong way to do these things. You just have to look at the school, it's instructors and students and decide if it is the right place for you and your family. If it is, I wouldn't be concerned with these issues and I would focus on training hard and doing your best at whatever material you are working on.


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## WaterGal (Oct 25, 2016)

Some martial arts schools use what's called a "rotating curriculum", which is probably what this school is doing.

Normally, in Taekwondo and similar arts, there is a particular form and set of techniques for each belt, and you learn each belt's material in order to move to the next.  That's the system we're probably all familiar with.  A rotating curriculum takes a different approach, and basically says "as long you learn all the material, who cares what order you learn it in?". So everybody in the class will learn the same material at the same time, and eventually you'll get around to learning the entire curriculum.

I have.... mixed feelings about this approach. If they were rotating through white/orange belt material, and then once you've done all the material for those two belts you graduate to the yellow/green class, and so forth, I think that could work.  But the advanced belts should be working on more difficult material than beginner belts.  Advanced forms should be more complex and difficult than beginner forms.


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## TrueJim (Oct 25, 2016)

itsrosa82 said:


> ...Block teaching is where more than one rank learns the same form/material during a particular testing cycle (the 2 or 3 month period between one belt test and another)...



I can certainly appreciate the logic behind it. One is de-emphasizing the forms themselves, in favor of emphasizing a certain lesson within a form, and practicing that specific sequence collectively as a group. One can imagine a school that essentially eliminates "forms" entirely, and just has the school collectively spend each week working on the same sequence. I can see a lot of virtues in that.

On the other hand, to WaterGal's point, as a beginner I think I would have felt fairly frustrated to be dropped into the middle of a medium-difficulty form during my first month of training. Like, I haven't even developed the muscle-memory yet for basic stances and stance changes, and now I'm supposed to be learning that AND some complicated kick or strike sequences.


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2016)

If i was king of martial arts i would probably have 1 form and then layer complexity on top of that.

Not sure how i would achieve that.  It is just an idea like a skill tree in a rpg or how some songs develop.

Eg.  Same basic principle all the way through.  But then changing due to nuance. 






That way flash techniques dont take priority over high percentage techniques.


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## dancingalone (Oct 25, 2016)

drop bear said:


> If i was king of martial arts i would probably have 1 form and then layer complexity on top of that.
> 
> Not sure how i would achieve that.  It is just an idea like a skill tree in a rpg or how some songs develop.
> 
> ...



That's the way it should work already in kata based arts like karate.  You don't do the forms the same way years in.  Or at least you shouldn't be.  Changes in timing, in understanding of stances, in development of power generation beyond snap and hip rotation occur.  Otherwise, instead of study for say 15 years, you've really only studied one year and then repeated it 15 times.


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## msmitht (Oct 25, 2016)

itsrosa82 said:


> I am a Master Instructor with the ATA so I figured I would chime in on this one. I'd like to start by saying all ATA schools are independently owned and operated so the curriculum's content and the way it is taught at one school can be radically different from another school, even though they both may be ATA schools.
> 
> In saying that, your school seems to be using a method of block teaching. Block teaching is where more than one rank learns the same form/material during a particular testing cycle (the 2 or 3 month period between one belt test and another). Some "blocks" in this teaching system incorporate just a couple of belts. Ours, for instance, blocks the white, orange and yellow belts together. They rotate through the material for these three belts and when a student has completed these 3 belts they will have done all the material required by us for the completion of this program, although some people may have learned this material out of order. Some schools create larger "blocks", like the one you are looking at. There is really no right or wrong answer as to how the material is presented. This is based on personal preference and what the instructor in charge thinks is best for his students.
> 
> ...



I would be greatly concerned about learning out of order or partial learning. You are supposed to build on what you have previously learned so how are you going to do that as a yellow belt if the first set of techniques that you learned were for orange belt? Imagine if you went to swim lessons for the first time and they were teaching the butterfly. Shouldn't you learn how to tread water first and stay afloat?
I have no love for the American Taekwondo Association. I think they for the most part are a crap organization with s***** technique. If you watch their paid show on ESPN they all look like Mike Chat wannabes. That being said there are a few decent schools within their system whose instructors have decided to actually care about teaching martial arts. There is no guarantee that the other school will be better but I would definitely give it a shot.


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2016)

dancingalone said:


> That's the way it should work already in kata based arts like karate.  You don't do the forms the same way years in.  Or at least you shouldn't be.  Changes in timing, in understanding of stances, in development of power generation beyond snap and hip rotation occur.  Otherwise, instead of study for say 15 years, you've really only studied one year and then repeated it 15 times.



It would be hard to get the nuances right though. Just conceptually. Say for example you learn something out there like a 720 kick.





Now you need your basics down to do that kick. So fair enough that is your progression.

Exept being able to do the 720 also enhances your basics as it defines elements like rotation and body control. Basically you are doing plyometrics. Which should be at the start of your basic training.

So which comes first. the chicken or the egg?


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## dancingalone (Oct 26, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It would be hard to get the nuances right though. Just conceptually.



Indeed.  This is why students need good instructors.  I've had the same Goju-ryu teacher for over 25 years now.  


drop bear said:


> Now you need your basics down to do that kick. So fair enough that is your progression.
> 
> Exept being able to do the 720 also enhances your basics as it defines elements like rotation and body control. Basically you are doing plyometrics. Which should be at the start of your basic training.
> 
> So which comes first. the chicken or the egg?



I don't disagree.  In my branch of Goju-ryu, beginners learn the kata Sanchin within the first 3 months.  They'll be doing it for the rest of their lifetime if they continue training as the form is one of the foundation key points to developing and maintain their alignment and posture.  Obviously, an experienced observer will be able to recognize how far along a Goju-ryu practitioner is by how adept his Sanchin is.


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## dancingalone (Oct 26, 2016)

To get back to the topic, in TKD block teaching isn't so horrible so long as the levels aren't too far apart.  It's probably fine to have the first 2 or 3 beginning ranks learning the same material even if it is out of order for some.  Greater a ranger than that, I would have some major concerns about it myself.

Block teaching is basically a convenience for school owners that have insufficient slots of time and not enough qualified teachers to suit all their students.  This is a good problem to have business wise, but the style of pedagogy is not the best truly for students.  IMO that's extended time spent with a teacher with small classes of 3-4, but this method isn't a money maker and honestly it's suited only for dedicated, serious learners.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2016)

dancingalone said:


> To get back to the topic, in TKD block teaching isn't so horrible so long as the levels aren't too far apart.  It's probably fine to have the first 2 or 3 beginning ranks learning the same material even if it is out of order for some.  Greater a ranger than that, I would have some major concerns about it myself.
> 
> Block teaching is basically a convenience for school owners that have insufficient slots of time and not enough qualified teachers to suit all their students.  This is a good problem to have business wise, but the style of pedagogy is not the best truly for students.  IMO that's extended time spent with a teacher with small classes of 3-4, but this method isn't a money maker and honestly it's suited only for dedicated, serious learners.



As an instructor, I'll vote that tiny classes are not the best for some instructors. I tend to meddle too much when I have a very small class. My students do best when I have to leave them alone some and make them figure a few things out on their own. I know this, so have to make up work for myself if I have classes smaller than about 6 or 7 (which is almost always at present). I prefer classes in the 10-15 range - that seems to be where there's the right mix of instructor availability and student independence. 

That said, I've met some instructors and students for whom those very small class sizes seem to work. The primary risk is over-teaching.


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 26, 2016)

Thanks everyone, great insight. From what I am gathering is block teaching is fine as long as its grouped belt appropriate. The class I attended was all White thru yellow with 1 cammo belt but the form being taught was from brown. I have made contact with the WTF affiliated school and set up what they call a new student orientation. They have more classes available during the week, more instructors and coaches for the same price as the ata school but without the Markups for stuff like the leadership program. It also affords my son and I the opportunity to earn a black belt reconized by the Kukkiwon once that level is achieved. I am not going to knock the ATA, they were really nice but given what I've read If the WTF school is good then my Son will be better served in the long run by the school with world wide recognition.


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## JR 137 (Oct 26, 2016)

Please tell me camo belt is a little kids' belt and not an adult rank.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Please tell me camo belt is a little kids' belt and not an adult rank.


I've threatened two of my students (adults) with the "camo belt" rank. It usually gets them back on task.


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## TrueJim (Oct 26, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Please tell me camo belt is a little kids' belt and not an adult rank.



In ATA style, that is a real rank, even for adults. 

http://www.rayfieldcreative.com/graphics/UploadFile/1165/Songham4.pdf


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 26, 2016)

Yes Cammo belt is a rank even for adults in ATA


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## msmitht (Oct 26, 2016)

I wore cammo in the Marine Corps. wouldn't seem right elsewhere . ..


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## msmitht (Oct 26, 2016)

ATAStudent83 said:


> Thanks everyone, great insight. From what I am gathering is block teaching is fine as long as its grouped belt appropriate. The class I attended was all White thru yellow with 1 cammo belt but the form being taught was from brown. I have made contact with the WTF affiliated school and set up what they call a new student orientation. They have more classes available during the week, more instructors and coaches for the same price as the ata school but without the Markups for stuff like the leadership program. It also affords my son and I the opportunity to earn a black belt reconized by the Kukkiwon once that level is achieved. I am not going to knock the ATA, they were really nice but given what I've read If the WTF school is good then my Son will be better served in the long run by the school with world wide recognition.


Ok. I am curious if you have tried a bjj class? no test fees and is an extremely effective martial art.


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## Leo89 (Oct 26, 2016)

msmitht said:


> I wore cammo in the Marine Corps. wouldn't seem right elsewhere . ..


Maybe think of it as an entitied belt maybe? Like, one you're more entitied to wear, show em how aggressive and tactical a camo belt can be. 

No offense, my grandfather's were in the service, they loved martial arts.


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## drop bear (Oct 26, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Please tell me camo belt is a little kids' belt and not an adult rank.



I do own a gold belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I do own a gold belt.


Great, now I'm picturing you as Elvis, in his sparkly jumpsuit stage.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 27, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Great, now I'm picturing you as Elvis, in his sparkly jumpsuit stage.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2016)

Oh my days, I cannot now unsee that. Argh! Camel toe.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Oh my days, I cannot now unsee that. Argh! Camel toe.


Tez, those posts are even funnier in the obviously-not-quite-real British accent I've assigned to you in my head. It's part Monty Python and part Queen Mum.


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## drop bear (Oct 27, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Great, now I'm picturing you as Elvis, in his sparkly jumpsuit stage.



Its tie dye.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=867053050093360


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Its tie dye.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Only a marginal improvement. I need brain bleach.


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 27, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Ok. I am curious if you have tried a bjj class? no test fees and is an extremely effective martial art.



Yes I have, BJJ is a large part of the Marine Corps Martial Arts curriculum and I did a few classes at a Gracie gym. I completely agree with you but I don't feel its a good fit for my 5 year old. I will absolutely look into taking him after he gets older although I may wait to cross him into another Martial Art until after he reaches 1st Poom


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## msmitht (Oct 27, 2016)

ATAStudent83 said:


> Yes I have, BJJ is a large part of the Marine Corps Martial Arts curriculum and I did a few classes at a Gracie gym. I completely agree with you but I don't feel its a good fit for my 5 year old. I will absolutely look into taking him after he gets older although I may wait to cross him into another Martial Art until after he reaches 1st Poom


Semper Fi devil dog. Back when I was in we used to do line training... Total joke but the knife training and Close Quarters combat was really good. I got out back in 94 so it has been a while. 0311 here 
I also run a kid's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu program. We have about 100 Kids of all ages. No submissions are allowed 4 kids until they're at least 7 years old so it's just about the self-defense and the positional transitions for the kids that age. Best of luck to you and your son in training.


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 27, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Semper Fi devil dog. Back when I was in we used to do line training... Total joke but the knife training and Close Quarters combat was really good. I got out back in 94 so it has been a while. 0311 here
> I also run a kid's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu program. We have about 100 Kids of all ages. No submissions are allowed 4 kids until they're at least 7 years old so it's just about the self-defense and the positional transitions for the kids that age. Best of luck to you and your son in training.



You inadvertently answered a question a didn't ask because this is a taekwando post. But my concern with BJJ as there Gracie Kids program that will take kids as early as 3 was submissions. I didn't think my kid would realize that he needed to tap and get hurt.


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## msmitht (Oct 27, 2016)

ATAStudent83 said:


> You inadvertently answered a question a didn't ask because this is a taekwando post. But my concern with BJJ as there Gracie Kids program that will take kids as early as 3 was submissions. I didn't think my kid would realize that he needed to tap and get hurt.


I would be wary of a BJJ program that had kids practicing submissions on each other while free training when they are under the age of 7. The kids practice doing arm bars on us all the time but know that they are not allowed to use them against each other until they get to the older class. Is better for them because they learn how to move and transition first. I know many members of The Gracie family and this is how they been doing it for years.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 27, 2016)

ATAStudent83 said:


> You inadvertently answered a question a didn't ask because this is a taekwando post. But my concern with BJJ as there Gracie Kids program that will take kids as early as 3 was submissions. I didn't think my kid would realize that he needed to tap and get hurt.



Not many schools are going to teach submissions to kids.  Our 5-7 class starts some very basic ones a year in... but they don't complete the submission ever.  Just get the position and the match ends.  

As for the ATA school, sounds like a rotating curriculum.  If done well it is a great approach to managing a class of mixed ranks.  Which is something pretty much every school is going to have.  With usually 10+ belt ranks and a few different age group having multiple ranks rotate through the same material all together and then move up to the next group after hitting each cycle   This sort of setup is becoming pretty standard in schools that hit a decent size.


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## msmitht (Oct 27, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> Not many schools are going to teach submissions to kids.  Our 5-7 class starts some very basic ones a year in... but they don't complete the submission ever.  Just get the position and the match ends.
> 
> As for the ATA school, sounds like a rotating curriculum.  If done well it is a great approach to managing a class of mixed ranks.  Which is something pretty much every school is going to have.  With usually 10+ belt ranks and a few different age group having multiple ranks rotate through the same material all together and then move up to the next group after hitting each cycle   This sort of setup is becoming pretty standard in schools that hit a decent size.


Well rotate curriculum at GB every 16 weeks. it varies from kids/adult/advanced but is in same position. instructors  prefer different positions so variations are allowed. more detail in advanced while beginners are going over the basic position itself and defense/posture . I do not consider it block training as there is no set order of instruction when it comes to bjj except that leg/twisting foot locks are usually not taught before brown.
Getting back to the Taekwondo block training: I see the reason but is better to hire additional instructors and increase the amount of classes.


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 27, 2016)

As an adult, I would pick BJJ if it wasn't for the logistics of getting my son there. I work a half a mile from the local Gracie academy but I would have to drive 25 miles to pick up my son and come back. The one thing that was weird for me was the ATA TKD Black belt program as they call it was age 7 and up and the class was filled with 7 year old. It weird as a 33 year old to train with kids. From a consumer standpoint I would prefer and Adult only option unless it was a family class. When I did BJJ most beginners in my class was adults as they had a separate class for kids


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## drop bear (Oct 27, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Only a marginal improvement. I need brain bleach.



Mans gotta express himself.

You should see my spiderman training gear.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Mans gotta express himself.
> 
> You should see my spiderman training gear.


No. No, I shouldn't.


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## ATAStudent83 (Oct 29, 2016)

I tried The WTF affiliated school today and it was like night and day. The Master is 4th Dan thru the Kukkiwon . Was very clear with everything and was really good with young kids. It takes a minimum of 3 years to get a school black belt and a minimum of a year after that to test 1st Dan thru the Kukkiwon. Belt tests are every 12 weeks and there is a multitude of stuff you must know before taking the test. Overall I feel it was a better put togther program and you had to earn your belts. The master also taught according to belt and didn't believe in the block teaching method.


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## Balrog (Dec 29, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


>


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