# Online Blue Belt vs White Belt at Small Competition



## Spookey (Apr 29, 2015)

Recently, we were invited to a "Taekwondo/Karate" Tournament with a Jiu-Jitsu Division.

The Blue Belt complained about an "illegal pressure point technique" (Ezekiel Choke) and we couldn't get clarification so our white belt just played position the remainder of the match.

After the match, the Blue Belt advised he did the Combatives DVD to get his rank, so I assume he may have just not been familiar with the Scissor Sweep or Ezekiel Choke.






Without regard, there were some really nice people there, and since we didn't go in looking to storm, maybe we displayed some deficiencies from which they can benefit. We have plenty of educational material for our white belt as well.


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## punisher73 (Apr 29, 2015)

One of the deficiencies in the combatives program.  It is designed with "self-defense" in mind, and does not address many common techniques that are successfully used in BJJ competitions because you wouldn't see them "on the street" or are giving something up that is ok in competition but not in a self-defense situation.


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## punisher73 (Apr 29, 2015)

PS:  That is only a "deficiency" if you want to roll in BJJ comps and compete with approaches that have more sport orientation.


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## drop bear (Apr 30, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> One of the deficiencies in the combatives program.  It is designed with "self-defense" in mind, and does not address many common techniques that are successfully used in BJJ competitions because you wouldn't see them "on the street" or are giving something up that is ok in competition but not in a self-defense situation.



Yes and no. Pulling guard could be considered a no no in a self defence but then so could letting the other guy sit in mount for three minutes.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 30, 2015)

No real surprise that a BJJ white belt training in a Training Hall with an actual coach would beat a Gracie Combatives DVD and possibly online trained blue belt.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 30, 2015)

Yeah, a GU blue belt who has only trained up through the Combatives curriculum is essentially a no-stripe white belt when it comes to tournament competition. If the guy had worked his way up to at least blue belt stripe 1 through GU he might have done better. The GU blue-through-purple belt curriculum has tons of great material that works well in competition.

I've never heard of BJJ tournament rules that didn't allow the Ezekial choke. It sounds like the refs didn't fully understand he rules themselves. Were the refs ranked in jiu-jitsu?


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## Spookey (Apr 30, 2015)

Regarding the rules, this was a "Karate" Competition...they had some of our Jiu-Jitsuka refereeing but didn't explain the rules thoroughly. 

We compete in IBJJF/ Naga rules so this was news to us...issue was the blue was from the host school so we didn't want to be rude...never know what weird rules you'll find grappling at a "Karate Tournament". That's not a knock on Karate, just an acknowledgement that BJJ is not their bread and butter.


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## Spookey (Apr 30, 2015)

Dojo Bear...

I liked your post, and agree with your reflection of the word deficiency!

Having someone keep top control without recourse doesn't seem "street ready". After all he was not mounted by a competition level blue belt, but rather a recreational white belt.

Good times...regardless, I just love BJJ!


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## Instructor (Apr 30, 2015)

Perhaps the Online student will be encouraged to get involved with a local program.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 30, 2015)

It is not like there are not BJJ schools almost everywhere now.  Get into a Training Hall and train!!!


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## Hanzou (May 14, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is not like there are not BJJ schools almost everywhere now.  Get into a Training Hall and train!!!



Yeah, there's really no excuse unless you're unemployed. Nothing beats having a purple to black belt correcting you and allowing you to feel the movements when you're a beginner. It makes a world of difference.


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## kuniggety (May 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, there's really no excuse unless you're unemployed. Nothing beats having a *purple to black belt* correcting you and allowing you to feel the movements when you're a beginner. It makes a world of difference.



Or even a real blue belt compared to a GU blue belt.

FWIW, I've rolled with someone a few times who has done the US Army Combatives which is heavily modeled off of the curriculum taught in the GU blue belt/Combatives DVDs. He had a much stronger base than someone off the street but I still tapped him out every time that I rolled with him and I am still a white belt. Also, for a while, I signed up for GU and reviewed the blue belt material, but used it as a learning supplement and did not try to actually test through them.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 16, 2015)

Kuniggety that is a good way to utilize the GU Combatives DVD's as a supplement to training in a real school, under a real teacher.  Then they can be very beneficial.

I too have also rolled with soldiers trained from the US Army Combatives as well as a couple of individuals who started off with the GU Combatives DVD's.  Same result.  Maybe a bit better than someone off the street but easily submitted at any time.  My students also easily handled them as well.


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## FriedRice (Jul 2, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> One of the deficiencies in the combatives program.  It is designed with "self-defense" in mind, and does not address many common techniques that are successfully used in BJJ competitions because you wouldn't see them "on the street" or are giving something up that is ok in competition but not in a self-defense situation.




Man...I want to know WHICH combative programs  that you are talking about, SPECIFICALLY, that "DOES NOT ADDRESS MANY COMMON TECHNIQUES that are successfully used in BJJ competitions". 

The White belt merely did a stanky scissor sweep, with horrible technique, yet the CQC whatever Blue belt, just flew in the air. Which programs are you talking about that don't teach scissor sweeps or how to defend against them. What in the world?

I train Krav Maga, and it's basically MMA Lite, with weapons. Watching YouTube vids of Marines doing MCMAP...once again, MMA Lite.


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> I train Krav Maga, and it's basically MMA Lite, with weapons. Watching YouTube vids of Marines doing MCMAP...once again, MMA Lite.



Not really, MMA is for competition fighting, the others aren't. There is an overlap because there's only so many way's you can strike and defend yourself  but they aren't MMA.


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## Chrisoro (Jul 3, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> I train Krav Maga, and it's basically MMA Lite, with weapons. Watching YouTube vids of Marines doing MCMAP...once again, MMA Lite.



I have never seen any Krav Maga instructor teaching anything remotely close to good groundfighting, and calling it Krav Maga. Even the official IKMF instructional series containing the complete curriculum up to Expert 1 have minimal ground figthing and show pretty crappy escapes on the ground. 

I wouldn't even dream of calling Krav Maga MMA-light, as ground fighting is such an essential part of MMA competition that I believe most Krav guys would be eaten alive in an MMA fight with an MMA-practitioner that had trained the same amount of time. Krav Maga is a good self-defense system for the real world, considering the training methodology, width of subjects taken into consideration, and other stuff, but it has about as much to do with MMA as classical Karate.

Could it function as a stand up component for an MMA-fighter? Probably. Could it work well in an MMA-setting on it's own? Not very likely.


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## Chrisoro (Jul 3, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> One of the deficiencies in the combatives program.  It is designed with "self-defense" in mind, and does not address many common techniques that are successfully used in BJJ competitions because you wouldn't see them "on the street" or are giving something up that is ok in competition but not in a self-defense situation.



Why is the difference in focus a deficiency? If it is designed for unarmed self defense or streetfighting with someone without BJJ-experience, doesn't it make sence to focus on those techniqes of GJJ that has been proven to work in that kind of setting? Gracie Combatives is is not designed for BJJ competition. Competition-relevant techniques are introduced later, as is other self defence techniques against threats not covered in the combatives program. Saying that Gracie Combatives is deficient for not focusing on competition-relevant techniques, is like saying a word processor is deficient for being a poor spreadsheet. 

Apples and oranges, people.


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## FriedRice (Jul 3, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> I have never seen any Krav Maga instructor teaching anything remotely close to good groundfighting, and calling it Krav Maga. Even the official IKMF instructional series containing the complete curriculum up to Expert 1 have minimal ground figthing and show pretty crappy escapes on the ground.



I don't doubt that. There are more crappy Krav joints that are full of S, then there are good ones. Then there are the many Krav federations with different structures and curriculum, because they're all trying to cash in on the Krav name, while it's still hot.

However, one of the Krav gyms that I train at, also has a legit BJJ program with Black belts and competition team that brings home medals at NAGA, World's, Grappler's Quest, etc.  Their Krav & Muay Thai program is run by a legit Krav Black belt and he also fights Amateur Muay Thai. And they have Pro MMA and ammy fighters. 



> I wouldn't even dream of calling Krav Maga MMA-light, as ground fighting is such an essential part of MMA competition that I believe most Krav guys would be eaten alive in an MMA fight with an MMA-practitioner that had trained the same amount of time. Krav Maga is a good self-defense system for the real world, considering the training methodology, width of subjects taken into consideration, and other stuff, but it has about as much to do with MMA as classical Karate.



Krav Maga is definitely MMA Lite. This term can vary in many levels. I go to Krav gyms to spar sometimes with their highest levels, so yes, I know that they're not very good. Even at this one Krav gym that I consider legit. The main instructor however, is good though, but I've never sparred vs. him. 



> Could it function as a stand up component for an MMA-fighter? Probably. Could it work well in an MMA-setting on it's own? Not very likely.



Sure it can. There are Krav Maga who fights MMA. They aren't the best or anything though. There are also Aikidokas, Karatekas, TKD, Capoeira, etc. in amateur and Pro MMA....all the way up to UFC Title holders. Of course they cross train in BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai and other staples of mainstream MMA, in order to make it work. And Krav is just this...Krav copies techniques from other styles, thus MMA Lite.


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## FriedRice (Jul 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Not really, MMA is for competition fighting, the others aren't. There is an overlap because there's only so many way's you can strike and defend yourself  but they aren't MMA.



Yes really. You just need to research better as there are various federations for Krav Maga, and the one that I frequent to most, is definitely MMA based. And it also depends on certain bias of its Instructor(s).


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Yes really. You just need to research better as there are various federations for Krav Maga, and the one that I frequent to most, is definitely MMA based. And it also depends on certain bias of its Instructor(s).




Lol, My mother was doing Krav Maga in the 1940s...in Israel when she was in the IDF. I know quite a bit about it actually...oh and it's not MMA lite.


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## FriedRice (Jul 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Lol, My mother was doing Krav Maga in the 1940s...in Israel when she was in the IDF. I know quite a bit about it actually...oh and it's not MMA lite.



That sure is sweet, but the current year is 2015 and not the 1940's and I just told you that there are more than one Krav Maga federation with their curriculum not all being exactly the same. Where I train Krav Maga, it's basically, MMA Lite.


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> That sure is sweet, but the current year is 2015 and not the 1940's and I just told you that there are more than one Krav Maga federation with their curriculum not all being exactly the same. Where I train Krav Maga, it's basically, MMA Lite.




Patronise much? You really need to understand more about martial arts as a whole before you start lecturing people son.

 I'm so pleased you find my comment amusing, my mother came out of the camps in German as the only survivor of her large family straight into another war, where Krav Maga was born and wasn't merely something for the boys like you to play around with. Often it was the thing that saved your life, weapons being scarce as they were at that time. You can play at it and kid yourself it's MMA lite but really that's all you are doing is playing.


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## FriedRice (Jul 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Patronise much? You really need to understand more about martial arts as a whole before you start lecturing people son.



I feel the same way about you grandma, so we're even


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> I feel the same way about you grandma, so we're even



No with your attitude you will never be equal. Only a complete idiot finds concentration camps 'funny'.


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## FriedRice (Jul 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> No with your attitude you will never be equal. Only a complete idiot finds concentration camps 'funny'.



Ha, now you're really reaching there with the concentration camp in order to sneak in, calling me an "idiot'. Keep trying mom.  And I never said that I was your equal, that would be insulting my own self.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 3, 2015)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS: Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

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## Chrisoro (Jul 3, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Sure it can. There are Krav Maga who fights MMA. They aren't the best or anything though. There are also Aikidokas, Karatekas, TKD, Capoeira, etc. in amateur and Pro MMA....all the way up to UFC Title holders. Of course they cross train in BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai and other staples of mainstream MMA, in order to make it work.



So what you are saying is that Krav Maga can work on it's own in an MMA-setting... as long as you cross train in BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, etc.? Well, then we are in agreement it seems, as you just confirmed my statement that Krav Maga on it's own is insufficient for MMA.



> And Krav is just this...Krav copies techniques from other styles, thus MMA Lite.


As do all other styles. That still does not make them MMA lite.


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## FriedRice (Jul 4, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> So what you are saying is that Krav Maga can work on it's own in an MMA-setting... as long as you cross train in BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, etc.? Well, then we are in agreement it seems, as you just confirmed my statement that Krav Maga on it's own is insufficient for MMA.



No,  I said it was those other styles such as Aikido, Karate, etc. are the ones that need to crosstrain in the grappling arts in order to make their base MA work, WELL, in MMA.  While Krav Maga, in general, is already stealing most of its standup techniques from Muay Thai and most of its grappling ones from BJJ....which therefore, makes it MMA Lite....and I'm speaking from the KM federation that I trained under.

MMA fighting itself, can be extremely uncomplicated when compared to say, Sports BJJ. Worm guard, X-Guard, 50/50 Guard, etc....all of that can be significantly limited by punching the guy in the face. To fight MMA, you really don't need to get super good & technical at BJJ to do well. What's taught in Krav Maga, level 4 and up, is sufficient for MMA fighting. At least at the Krav joint that I trained at. But in general, people who wants to fight MMA, wouldn't go to a Krav class because it's more geared towards women, old people and dudes who are scared to spar at full power.



> As do all other styles. That still does not make them MMA lite.



Well MMA is not exactly a specific style as it is a specific type of combat sport. You can argue that Mainstream MMA, currently, is a combo of BJJ + MT. But in the last 10 years, Boxing + Wrestling proved their effectiveness and now Wrestling is creeping it's way towards being the dominant grappling art for MMA. And there's currently a lot more, technical, Boxing "hands being thrown" in MMA than ever before, IMO. Then there are the oddballs, such as Machida and his Shotokan Karate. St. Pierre and his Karate. Chuck Liddell is a Karateka also. Petis, a TKD.  And these guy rose to the very top of MMA. But yes, they also crosstrain ground-fighting.  MMA can be almost anything...but it doesn't mean that such anything can win fights. But Krav Maga is a lot more like MMA Lite than say Karate or Kung-Fu by themselves are.


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## Chrisoro (Jul 4, 2015)

Just curious. Which federation are you training under?


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## Limasogobudo (Jul 4, 2015)

Watching the video congrats to the white belt. I have seen the GJJ combative dvds. I have them I think they are coming a long way now a days for those whom take it seriously. However I think if you are going to compete you should train that way. The Dvds are made so that you the Jiu Jitsu student can fight a no one. Their are some great key things in their but if you are going to compete I would sub-jest to that guy getting Saulo R. Dvds and rolling at a couple of gyms to get a better feel. I don't know how he got his blue belt tho he seemed really slow and kinda shocked, maybe it was his first tournament. He seemed slow to react. And the blue belt should not be made he should have studied what others were doing and ask questions that is what tournaments are for.... to learn. Not everyone can be the best.


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## punisher73 (Jul 5, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> Why is the difference in focus a deficiency? If it is designed for unarmed self defense or streetfighting with someone without BJJ-experience, doesn't it make sence to focus on those techniqes of GJJ that has been proven to work in that kind of setting? Gracie Combatives is is not designed for BJJ competition. Competition-relevant techniques are introduced later, as is other self defence techniques against threats not covered in the combatives program. Saying that Gracie Combatives is deficient for not focusing on competition-relevant techniques, is like saying a word processor is deficient for being a poor spreadsheet.
> 
> Apples and oranges, people.



I'm guessing that you didn't read my post RIGHT after that one.



> _PS: That is only a "deficiency" if you want to roll in BJJ comps and compete with approaches that have more sport orientation. _


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## punisher73 (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Man...I want to know WHICH combative programs  that you are talking about, SPECIFICALLY, that "DOES NOT ADDRESS MANY COMMON TECHNIQUES that are successfully used in BJJ competitions".
> 
> The White belt merely did a stanky scissor sweep, with horrible technique, yet the CQC whatever Blue belt, just flew in the air. Which programs are you talking about that don't teach scissor sweeps or how to defend against them. What in the world?
> 
> I train Krav Maga, and it's basically MMA Lite, with weapons. Watching YouTube vids of Marines doing MCMAP...once again, MMA Lite.




Well, since this is a thread about the "GRACIE COMBATIVES" program.  That is the one I am talking about.

If you have competed in BJJ, you know that there are many chokes that are gi dependant, many different types of guard variations (outside of closed/open/half/etc) that are not covered in this program that are used successfully in tournaments.   If you actually got their program or listened to them, THEY will tell you that there are many techniques that they don't cover that are used in sports competitions.

Again, it is NOT a slam on the program.  It is just a very defined program with a specific focus.  IF you are looking for more of the competition aspect of BJJ, then the program probably isn't for you.


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## kuniggety (Jul 6, 2015)

I was bored and watched the video again. Man that blue belt was terrible. Anyways, it's too bad the white belt didn't catch it but at the end he had his arm. He could've base ball slid to the left, swung his left leg over the guys head, and had an arm bar.


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## FriedRice (Jul 6, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> Well, since this is a thread about the "GRACIE COMBATIVES" program.  That is the one I am talking about.
> 
> If you have competed in BJJ, you know that there are many chokes that are gi dependant, many different types of guard variations (outside of closed/open/half/etc) that are not covered in this program that are used successfully in tournaments.   If you actually got their program or listened to them, THEY will tell you that there are many techniques that they don't cover that are used in sports competitions.
> 
> Again, it is NOT a slam on the program.  It is just a very defined program with a specific focus.  IF you are looking for more of the competition aspect of BJJ, then the program probably isn't for you.



Do you know what a scissor sweep is?


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## punisher73 (Jul 6, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Do you know what a scissor sweep is?



Yes. Point being?

You are all over the page with your discussion.  You asked "what combatives programs"? I answered your question.
Now, you ask a random question that has NOTHING to do with the initial thread/discussion.

Here is the list of the 36 techniques to earn your blue belt in Gracie Combatives


> 1. Trap and Role Escape
> 2. Americana Armlock
> 3. Positional Control Mount
> 4. Take the Back (Mount)
> ...



AGAIN, good emphasis for what it was designed for.  But, the program is NOT meant to train you to be a successful BJJ tourney player.  AGAIN, the Gracies themselves will tell you that too about their program.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 6, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> Yes. Point being?
> 
> You are all over the page with your discussion.  You asked "what combatives programs"? I answered your question.
> Now, you ask a random question that has NOTHING to do with the initial thread/discussion.
> ...


Exactly. The Gracie Academy teaches the scissors sweep at blue belt. It's lesson #26 in the blue belt stripe 1 curriculum. Most of what you would need to compete in BJJ tournaments is covered after the  student reaches blue belt.

This is a decidedly different approach from most of the rest of the BJJ world. Like it or hate it, they're doing what they set out to do.


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## FriedRice (Jul 6, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> Yes. Point being?



My point was that the scissor sweep is a simple technique, valid for tournaments and the streets. 

But I will admit....I am forgetting what the hell I was arguing with you about in the first place


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## Chester Wright (Jan 3, 2016)

Around my area there are a few schools that stick to the Gracie Combatives. We have gotten a couple of their students in our dojo and have had to push the reset button on their training. Jiu Jitsu is feeling, understanding of balance, weight distribution, movement, leverage, angles, and so much more. You cant attain Jiu Jitsu by watching videos and not being able to live roll.


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