# Martial arts for self defense



## abe_tz (Jan 8, 2016)

What is your preferred martial art for self defense? Personally, mine is Wing Chun.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2016)

I'm guessing everyone is going to say, the one that they train


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 8, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm guessing everyone is going to say, the one that they train



True. So, Isshin-Ryu. Thank you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2016)

To me kempo/kenpo are great styles for self defense..so yeah. Flying crane was right.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 8, 2016)

Obviously, the one(s) you're trained in.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 8, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm guessing everyone is going to say, the one that they train


Not so! I hit them with the crazy eyes, and I walk toward them offering suntan lotion, for it's skin. @_@


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## Danny T (Jan 8, 2016)

For self-defense? Of all the martial systems I've had some or extensive training in I've received very little self defense training. Fight training, yes. Defense training, very little to none. 
Now as to what I teach within our 'self defense' training we use some muay thai and boxing, some wing chun, some pekiti-tirsia, some silat, some just plain run away. A lot more of environment and awareness training compared to fight training.


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## Buka (Jan 8, 2016)

_*Mozess-Shabooty-Fu.*_ It's a throwaway line we use to use to describe what-ever-the-hell just happened that somehow allowed you to survive, or to win that fight you just had because you were too stupid to stay out of.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 9, 2016)

The one I train in.


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## Rmada (Jan 9, 2016)

Click-pow.


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## FriedRice (Jan 13, 2016)

A good idea would be to go try it out in some medium to hard sparring vs. other equally trained people in MMA gyms to see if what you're training, works well.


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## Paul_D (Jan 14, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> A good idea would be to go try it out in some medium to hard sparring vs. other equally trained people in MMA gyms to see if what you're training, works well.


Try what out?


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## drop bear (Jan 14, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Try what out?



Your self defence. 

The fighting bit of course,not the locking your car doors bit.


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## Paul_D (Jan 14, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Your self defence.
> 
> The fighting bit of course,not the locking your car doors bit.


Ok.

But as you point out, sparring is fighting not self defence. 

I think FreidRice is confusing fighting with self defence.


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## drop bear (Jan 14, 2016)

Self defence isnt basic safety practice. It is a reason to use force on someone.

"The *right of self-defense* (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for persons to use reasonable force or defensive force, for the purpose of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including, in certain circumstances, the use of deadly force."

Right of self-defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are plenty of non martial arts ways of basically staying safe. There are plenty of martial arts ways of dropping someone on their head if they try to hurt you.

One is not any more reasonable than the other. It is situational.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Self defence isnt basic safety practice. It is a reason to use force on someone.
> 
> "The *right of self-defense* (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for persons to use reasonable force or defensive force, for the purpose of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including, in certain circumstances, the use of deadly force."
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone really disagrees with this.  Self-defense can certainly involve physical contact and conflict.

However, self defense is not the same thing as agreeing to face off and have a contest of skills with another trained individual.  While there is certainly some overlap of the physical skills involved, they are definitely not the same thing.  Success in the one can imply or suggest, to a certain degree, a likelihood of success in the other and vice-versa.  But definitely not the same thing, definitely should not be assumed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 14, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> sparring is fighting not self defence.


Fighting is self-defense. You have to fight against bad guys to defend yourself. When your fist meet on your opponent's face, he will no longer bother you any more. It's better for your fist to meet on your opponent's face than for your opponent's fist to meet on your face. Self-defense doesn't mean that you don't fight back. You do fight back and that's "fight" by definition. Of course you can run, but when someone attacks your family members, you just can't run away and you have to "fight".


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## drop bear (Jan 14, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't think anyone really disagrees with this.  Self-defense can certainly involve physical contact and conflict.
> 
> However, self defense is not the same thing as agreeing to face off and have a contest of skills with another trained individual.  While there is certainly some overlap of the physical skills involved, they are definitely not the same thing.  Success in the one can imply or suggest, to a certain degree, a likelihood of success in the other and vice-versa.  But definitely not the same thing, definitely should not be assumed.



This is an implied compromise whenever people suggest resisted training to gauge self defence ability. This is because actually getting attacked is a terrible way of testing method due to the risk.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2016)

drop bear said:


> This is an implied compromise whenever people suggest resisted training to gauge self defence ability. This is because actually getting attacked is a terrible way of testing method due to the risk.


Do you think we do not understand this?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> A good idea would be to go try it out in some medium to hard sparring vs. other equally trained people in MMA gyms to see if what you're training, works well.


That will tell you if it works for sparring, and whether it works against well-trained individuals. It is a mediocre measure of effectiveness on gravel, among chairs, facing three drunk guys who may or may not have a knife somewhere among them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Fighting is self-defense. You have to fight against bad guys to defend yourself. When your fist meet on your opponent's face, he will no longer bother you any more. It's better for your fist to meet on your opponent's face than for your opponent's fist to meet on your face. Self-defense doesn't mean that you don't fight back. You do fight back and that's "fight" by definition. Of course you can run, but when someone attacks your family members, you just can't run away and you have to "fight".


Not at all the same. I will not, under any circumstances, do something I think will cause real harm to someone in a sparring match. That takes away weapons like kicks to knees, etc. If I'm attacked, I do not mind causing damage.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Not at all the same. I will not, under any circumstances, do something I think will cause real harm to someone in a sparring match. That takes away weapons like kicks to knees, etc. If I'm attacked, I do not mind causing damage.


There will be no argument there that all illegal moves in sport will be good for self-defense. But legal moves in sport will also be good for self-defense as well. For example, the skill to take your opponent down is good for both sport and self-defense. When your opponent is down, to kick him on the head may be illegal in sport, but it's an excellent finish move for self-defense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2016)

I should also add that some of us have bodies that don't let us do some of what we'd love to do in an MMA gym (or, in fact, used to do). If a good ground fighter gets me to the ground, I probably don't have reasonable recourse within safe technique because of my knees and feet - just can't get enough leverage without leaving myself limping for a few days. I'm still competent against someone who tackles me and tries to beat me, but if they have trained for any length of time in BJJ, they can probably beat my basic ground game now. Once upon a time, that would have been far less true.


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## drop bear (Jan 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Not at all the same. I will not, under any circumstances, do something I think will cause real harm to someone in a sparring match. That takes away weapons like kicks to knees, etc. If I'm attacked, I do not mind causing damage.



So you increase your skill by stripping away your tricks and just rely on your basics.

I do mma. I don't punch people when I wrestle. My wrestling improves. When I can punch people I can use that improved wrestling to punch people more effectively.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 14, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Fighting is self-defense. You have to fight against bad guys to defend yourself. When your fist meet on your opponent's face, he will no longer bother you any more. It's better for your fist to meet on your opponent's face than for your opponent's fist to meet on your face. Self-defense doesn't mean that you don't fight back. You do fight back and that's "fight" by definition. Of course you can run, but when someone attacks your family members, you just can't run away and you have to "fight".


And none of that is simulated in sparring so...  Two guys agreeing to spar with a defined set of rules isnt self defense


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## FriedRice (Jan 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That will tell you if it works for sparring, and whether it works against well-trained individuals. It is a mediocre measure of effectiveness on gravel, among chairs, facing three drunk guys who may or may not have a knife somewhere among them.



Well if you can't do well vs. someone in an MMA gym, then you'll do pretty awful anywhere else. 

Think.....if most to all of the fighters at an MMA gym is lighting you up to where you can hardly even touch them, then wouldn't it be pretty much worse if they had a knife too?  

And have you ever trained at an MMA gym's mat in the summer time before? It's like a Slip 'N Slide because there are puddles of sweat all over. We can't sprinkle gravel on our $5000 mats just for you, but I'm sure someone would go spar you outside on the gravel, dirt, cement, etc. But wouldn't it hurt real bad should you get picked up and slammed into the concrete?


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## FriedRice (Jan 14, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Ok.
> 
> But as you point out, sparring is fighting not self defence.
> 
> I think FreidRice is confusing fighting with self defence.




Punching someone in the face, works just the same in the ring as it does in the street.


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## FriedRice (Jan 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Not at all the same. I will not, under any circumstances, do something I think will cause real harm to someone in a sparring match. That takes away weapons like kicks to knees, etc. If I'm attacked, I do not mind causing damage.



I get kicked to the knees often in hard sparring, sometimes with the oblique kick.... not a big deal. Just say you want to go hard, and any fighter at an MMA gym would know that you want to go full power for knockouts.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 14, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> I get kicked to the knees often in hard sparring, sometimes with the oblique kick.... not a big deal. Just say you want to go hard, and any fighter at an MMA gym would know that you want to go full power for knockouts.



I think the oft-mentioned point is that there are different ways to kick the knee. Some hurt. Some trash the knee. Nobody is trashing your knee, obviously.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Well if you can't do well vs. someone in an MMA gym, then you'll do pretty awful anywhere else.
> 
> Think.....if most to all of the fighters at an MMA gym is lighting you up to where you can hardly even touch them, then wouldn't it be pretty much worse if they had a knife too?
> 
> And have you ever trained at an MMA gym's mat in the summer time before? It's like a Slip 'N Slide because there are puddles of sweat all over. We can't sprinkle gravel on our $5000 mats just for you, but I'm sure someone would go spar you outside on the gravel, dirt, cement, etc. But wouldn't it hurt real bad should you get picked up and slammed into the concrete?


Meh.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 14, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> I get kicked to the knees often in hard sparring, sometimes with the oblique kick.... not a big deal. Just say you want to go hard, and any fighter at an MMA gym would know that you want to go full power for knockouts.


and even "going hard" has rules


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## ballen0351 (Jan 14, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Punching someone in the face, works just the same in the ring as it does in the street.


sometimes....


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## drop bear (Jan 14, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you think we do not understand this?



Generally yeah, people don't. A critique on how training isn't self defence with no better solution.

What is the point?

Here we go a few posts later.

"That will tell you if it works for sparring, andwhether it works against well-trained individuals. It is a mediocre measure of effectiveness on gravel, among chairs, facing three drunk guys who may or may not have a knife somewhere among them."

"And none of that is simulated in sparring so... Two guys agreeing to spar with a defined set of rules isnt self defense"


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## drop bear (Jan 14, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think the oft-mentioned point is that there are different ways to kick the knee. Some hurt. Some trash the knee. Nobody is trashing your knee, obviously.



Because you don't let them. And the knee is a pretty strong joint. And as shown in competition a lot harder to break than the self defence experts have led us to believe.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 14, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Because you don't let them. And the knee is a pretty strong joint. And as shown in competition a lot harder to break than the self defence experts have led us to believe.



Next time I'm reducing someones dislocated knee, I'll be sure and tell them that they aren't really hurt. Because drop bear said so.


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## drop bear (Jan 14, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Next time I'm reducing someones dislocated knee, I'll be sure and tell them that they aren't really hurt. Because drop bear said so.



After you have kicked it out street style.

If we use mma as an example there is no kick to the knee that is banned.


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## Phobius (Jan 15, 2016)

It is easy to destroy a knee with a kick. I am saying this from a personal experience of spending 5 years in recovery. European football, soccer, and the guy misstook my knee for the ball. Given of course that my leg was in the air moving towards him.

I still think one should consider how many parts in the foot that are weaker than the knee and ask what it will do to your foot. In my case the guy kicking me was out cold and was still last I heard.

In self defense it is a reality that people will hurt themselves to hurt you in some cases. Quite frankly not all attacks in self defense are planned nor logical or sane. Expect your opponent to harm himself in order to harm you. Do not expect such a behavior in sparring or MMA fights.

Problem exist with TMA not handling themselves in an MMA fight, those scenarios are important. But another problem is an MMA fighter that constantly wrestles on the ground in fights and never get to try it against someone that without knowledge of ground game just attempts to punch the guy in the head for all he is worth. If you are black belt in BJJ then great, Noone can probably harm you in ground game. But if not, you are most likely being knocked out. Not all can be black belt in self defense.


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## Paul_D (Jan 15, 2016)

You are confusing fighting with self defence, it is a common mistake.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Fighting is self-defense.


Fighting in the street is illegal, self defence is legal.   How then can they be the same thing?    This audio book will explain the differences (and the similarities) between fighting, martial arts, and self defence.  It also explains why people often confuse them as being the same thing, and why this confusion leads to people wrongly assuming that the ability to “fight” means you have the ability to defend yourself.

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy



Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have to fight against bad guys to defend yourself.


No you don't have to at all.  You are saying “have to fight” so the only possible solution to a self defence situation is violence, which is simply not true.  You can walk away, you can use verbal de-escalation.  Even if you have no choice but to act physically, you can strike pre-emptively and continue striking until the threat is neutralised, then run away.  None of these three options are "fighting".    

This is a self defence technique.  






It does not look like two people sparring/fighting in the gym.  Why not?  Because it isn’t, it is a self defence not a fighting/sparring.


 


Kung Fu Wang said:


> When your fist meet on your opponent's face, he will no longer bother you any more. It's better for your fist to meet on your opponent's face than for your opponent's fist to meet on your face.


I don’t think you will find anyone that would disagree with that. 



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Self-defense doesn't mean that you don't fight back.


It does not mean that you don’t take physical action no, but you don’t engage in a “fight”.  That is the point.  

Muggers, sexual predators, drunken idiots trying to glass you because you were “starring at my girlfriend” don’t stand six feet away in a fighting stance with their hands up in a guard and spar with you.  They will be close enough to sucker punch you and then they will use distraction “have you got the time mate?” before they strike, in order to increase their chances of success.  That is not a fight.  Criminals don’t want a fight, as there is the chance they could lose.  They simply want attack you until you are no longer in a position to stop them getting what they want.  They don’t want the “back and forth” exchange of techniques that happens during a fight, they don’t want to out point you or defeat you, or test their skill.  They don’t want to play your game (consensual violence/fighting) they want to play their game (criminal violence).  Fighting is not a blanket term for violence, it is a specific term in which two or more people engage in consensual violence to test their skill or “defeat” their opponent.

Criminal violence (i.e. What self defence skills are designed to protect you from) is a very different animal to consensual violence.  Fighting in the street like a pair of drunken idiots is NOT self defence.






Kung Fu Wang said:


> You do fight back and that's "fight" by definition.


No it isn’t.  A fight takes place between two or more WILLING competitors.  By definition in self defence at least one persons is UNWILLING.  You do not “fight” a criminal.  Fighting is a “back and forth” exchange of blows between skilled martial artists.  You do not want a “back and forth” exchange, you do not want him to “get a go”.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course you can run, but when someone attacks your family members, you just can't run away and you have to "fight".


No you don’t “fight” you “protect them”.  If you train to fight, then when you knock someone to the floor you will rush over and keep hitting them until the ref comes over waves the fight over and pulls you off.  Nothing wrong with that, well done, you have won.  But if that is what you are trained to do, then that is how you will react under pressure.  So you strike someone pre-emotively in self defence, and then the fall and are dazed.  Your training kicks in and you rush over and follow up with additional (unnecessary) strikes, instead of choosing to flee when you had the chance.,  Now you are no longer defending yourself, now you are committing assault.  All of the witnesses that have now turned round to see what the commotion is will see a dazed and defenceless man on the floor and you beating the **** out of him.  This is the statement they will give to the police, and this is the statement that will convict you in a court of law.  Imagine CCTV footage of that being played in court!

Fighting is about defeating an opponent.  Self Defence is about creating the opportunity to get away from people who want to harm you.  

When you train for self defence, when you strike pre-emptively and they fall and are dazed you don’t rush over to “defeat them” you back away with your hands up palms out (to show all the witnesses that you don’t want to fight) and then you get the hell out of there.  Witnesses will give statements to the police saying they saw a man on the floor dazed and you backing away showing you didn’t want to fight.   The CCTV footage of that will look a lot better for you in court (in fact if you know how to get key phrases into you statement, it will never even get to court).

Fighting is as a term which refers to people engaging in consensual violence, either in the ring or in the pub car park to settle an argument.  It starts six feet apart in a fighting stance with your hands up in a guard, and it needs certain specific skills.  The purpose is to defeat or “win” over your opponent.  It is also illegal in the street or pub car parks.  Sparring is a fighting skill.

Self defence is about dealing with criminal violence, not consensual violence. It contains at least one person who does not consent, it will take place at “sucker punch” range, the purpose is not to defeat an opponent, but simply to create the opportunity to flee.  It is perfectly legal, and more importantly it requires a different skill set to fighting.  Sparring has nothing to do with self defence.

If I kick someone in the groin and run away this works for self defence.  Does it work for fighting? No, because I will be disqualified for use of illegal strikes, and for failing to engage with my opponent (running away).  Conversely, if you triangle choke someone in the ring, you win.  Triangle choke someone outside the chip shop on a Friday night and his mates stomp your head flat.  By no definition can a technique that ends up with you  dead be argued to work for the purposes of self defence, and yet it works in a fight and so people who can fight assume they can defend themselves.  They are different things, so they need different skills, and just because one skill or techniques works in one field does not mean it will work in the other.    Hence sparring in an MMA gym has nothing to do with self defence.  If what you are doing in the street looks like sparring then you are not defending yourself, you are fighting, and you are breaking the law. 

Like I say, listen to the martial map podcast, it will explain why:-
Martial arts, self defence and fighting are three different things
Why people make the mistake of confusing them as being one in the same
How the skills needed for success in won DO NOT automatically transfer to success in the other.


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## Paul_D (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Punching someone in the face, works just the same in the ring as it does in the street.


Of course it does, no one is saying it doesn't.  A good punch is always a good punch.  

By your "test" for self defence was sparring in an MMA gym, but you cannot test many self defence techniques with sparring (see the Lee Morrison video I psoted).  So using sparring as a test for effectiveness is flawed is good for fighting techniques, but it is flawed as a test for self defence techniques.


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## Paul_D (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Well if you can't do well vs. someone in an MMA gym, then you'll do pretty awful anywhere else.


Getting good at what you do doesn't mean you will be able to beat a criminal at what he does.

The only thing doing well in an MMA gym will show is how well you can do in an MMA gym.  Boxers & MMA fighters have been beaten, stabbed, killed, and hospitalised by people who have no skill or training.  

There is no doubt who here was the better fighter, there is no doubt who would win if they sparred in an boxing or MMA gym.. But the point is a criminal will not fight you, he will not play your game on your terms by your rules.  he will do what he is good at, he wil paly his game, by his rules.  So any test of your fighting skill is only a test of your fighting skill.  The benchmark for self defence is only fighting when you A) do not understand the difference between fighting and self defence,  and B) do no understand the nature of criminal violence.

The fact that you do not understand these different does not make the people that do understand them wrong.

If you want to get good at fighting, train for fighting, if you want to get good at self defence train self defence but don’t make the mistake of assuming that getting good at fighting means you are good at self defence, or that getting good at self defence means you can win trophies in an MMA ring.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Getting good at what you do doesn't mean you will be able to beat a criminal at what he does.
> 
> The only thing doing well in an MMA gym will show is how well you can do in an MMA gym.  Boxers & MMA fighters have been beaten, stabbed, killed, and hospitalised by people who have no skill or training.
> 
> ...



Isnt requiring people to be actually attacked in self defence situations so they can recognise the difference between training and the real thing kind of counter productive to why people learn self defence in the first place?


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> It does not mean that you don’t take physical action no, but you don’t engage in a “fight”. That is the point.
> 
> Muggers, sexual predators, drunken idiots trying to glass you because you were “starring at my girlfriend” don’t stand six feet away in a fighting stance with their hands up in a guard and spar with you. They will be close enough to sucker punch you and then they will use distraction “have you got the time mate?” before they strike, in order to increase their chances of success. That is not a fight. Criminals don’t want a fight, as there is the chance they could lose. They simply want attack you until you are no longer in a position to stop them getting what they want. They don’t want the “back and forth” exchange of techniques that happens during a fight, they don’t want to out point you or defeat you, or test their skill. They don’t want to play your game (consensual violence/fighting) they want to play their game (criminal violence). Fighting is not a blanket term for violence, it is a specific term in which two or more people engage in consensual violence to test their skill or “defeat” their opponent.
> 
> Criminal violence (i.e. What self defence skills are designed to protect you from) is a very different animal to consensual violence. Fighting in the street like a pair of drunken idiots is NOT self defence.



The skill base is the same. For example if you were sparring and were in sucker punch range you would move out of range.

If you are self defending and are in sucker punch range you would move out of range.
A person who is good at controlling range will be good at doing so in competition or self defence.



Paul_D said:


> You are confusing fighting with self defence, it is a common mistake.
> 
> 
> Fighting in the street is illegal, self defence is legal.   How then can they be the same thing?    This audio book will explain the differences (and the similarities) between fighting, martial arts, and self defence.  It also explains why people often confuse them as being the same thing, and why this confusion leads to people wrongly assuming that the ability to “fight” means you have the ability to defend yourself.
> ...



Why is it that self defence has to come up with such massive presumptions? Fighting dosent. It either works or you get beat up.

Why couldn't a sport trained fighter kick someone in the groin and run away?


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think the oft-mentioned point is that there are different ways to kick the knee. Some hurt. Some trash the knee. Nobody is trashing your knee, obviously.



You're wrong. During hard sparring or a fight, I'm throwing full powered kicks towards the leg in trying to hurt my opponent. If I get their knee, that's too bad. Then it's up to the Ref to either warn me, then take a point or DQ me. The MT Inside Leg Kick, sometimes I specifically target the knee as it's a hard one for the Ref to see (but usually, the inside thigh). The Oblique Kick is the one that has high potential to wreck the knee, but that's too bad because the other guy is doing the same to me.

That other guy, GPSeymour, made it sound like it's some kind of Master of Kung-Fu 36 Chambers whateverthehell, mystical power, +P+.... to kick someone in the knee or something. Been there, heard it thousands of times from theory fighters on the internet. Like I'm just going to just leave my leg there for him to kick it like a heavy bag. Same goes with anti-rape  eye poking and nut-strikes. Something coming towards my face and or nuts, I'm moving, blocking or countering....just like I would with any other strikes.


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I should also add that some of us have bodies that don't let us do some of what we'd love to do in an MMA gym (or, in fact, used to do). If a good ground fighter gets me to the ground, I probably don't have reasonable recourse within safe technique because of my knees and feet - just can't get enough leverage without leaving myself limping for a few days. I'm still competent against someone who tackles me and tries to beat me, but if they have trained for any length of time in BJJ, they can probably beat my basic ground game now. Once upon a time, that would have been far less true.



Well if you're an old guy with worn out bodyparts, then that's way more reasons for you to not suggest how deadly you are if you were to kick someone in their knees and should be way more accommodating to sparring with rules.....a TON of rules (to protect you, not them). Starting with the rule of light sparring with Boxing gloves to  backup what you say. Everybody spars light to even touch sparring, where it's only a tap, way more than hard sparring. And you can certainly prove and improve your skills through light sparring and can show that you've decisively beaten someone or been beaten.


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> And none of that is simulated in sparring so...  Two guys agreeing to spar with a defined set of rules isnt self defense



How is trying to knock someone out cold, not simulated in sparring?


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> and even "going hard" has rules



Not really. If you go there, then it's usually going to be a situation where it becomes more personal and tapping may not stop the "sparring" until the guy winning, gets his fill.


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> sometimes....



Most to all of the time....well that is, unless you're not good at it.


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Because you don't let them. And the knee is a pretty strong joint. And as shown in competition a lot harder to break than the self defence experts have led us to believe.



Haha, so true. I'm more afraid of getting my knees destroyed in BJJ and especially Wrestling training than I am when fighting full contact in Muay Thai. Another myth is the deadly, throat strike. It doesn't tickle, but never stopped any of my fights nor hard sparring sessions..... just a little sore throat the next day that goes away on its own. A guillotine air choke, damage the throat way more and much more dangerous towards death.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Most to all of the time....well that is, unless you're not good at it.


or the other guy is high or drunk or insane or really really pissed or....


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Not really. If you go there, then it's usually going to be a situation where it becomes more personal and tapping may not stop the "sparring" until the guy winning, gets his fill.


spare me the macho
We do it real BS.  If your in a school it's not real and has rules.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> How is trying to knock someone out cold, not simulated in sparring?


Well sparing is training and I've never tried to knock someone out "cold". That's not the purpose


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Of course it does, no one is saying it doesn't.  A good punch is always a good punch.
> 
> By your "test" for self defence was sparring in an MMA gym, but you cannot test many self defence techniques with sparring (see the Lee Morrison video I psoted).  So using sparring as a test for effectiveness is flawed is good for fighting techniques, but it is flawed as a test for self defence techniques.



So what's better than sparring in MMA?   You pretending to eye poke someone or pretending to squeeze their testicles?  Or do you actually train with real eye poking and real testicle kicking?


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Getting good at what you do doesn't mean you will be able to beat a criminal at what he does.
> 
> The only thing doing well in an MMA gym will show is how well you can do in an MMA gym.  Boxers & MMA fighters have been beaten, stabbed, killed, and hospitalised by people who have no skill or training.


 [/QUOTE]

That just tells me that some  Self Defense guy who never dared to spar hard for knockouts, is not going to just get beaten, stabbed, killed and hospitalized by these same people who have no skill or training...but probably going to get raped hard, on top of all that.  

People who've never sparred hard, for full knockouts....and regularly as part of their training, don't really know what a trained & experienced fighter can do in the ring and in the street.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> spare me the macho
> We do it real BS.  If your in a school it's not real and has rules.



By real, you mean that your school pretends to eye poke and pretend to kick at testicles right?    You train with no rules, just as long they're pretend strikes.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Well sparing is training and I've never tried to knock someone out "cold". That's not the purpose



Thanks for proving my point that you've never tested out your skills against trained fighters before. 

Who says that sparring can't also be for the purpose of knocking out your partner, you?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Thanks for proving my point that you've never tested out your skills against trained fighters before.
> 
> Who says that sparring can't also be for the purpose of knocking out your partner, you?


No I'm a cop I test my skills in real life against real criminals  So I don't need to knock out my training partners to show how tough I am.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> By real, you mean that your school pretends to eye poke and pretend to kick at testicles right?    You train with no rules, just as long they're pretend strikes.


no all training has "rules"  that's the point.  Training isn't real and never will be.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Well sparing is training and I've never tried to knock someone out "cold". That's not the purpose



It could be too that you don't have to _try_, you can do it anyway. 


All this macho stuff about sparring hard and 'real' lol, I've seen chaps like that in the gym but when it came to a real 'street' situation they froze.  Mental attitude just didn't match what their mouths were telling us.
 We've had accidental KOs in the gym and they don't really worry anyone because you know your opponent stops, you fall onto the mats, you get put in recovery position then helped up so nothing like real life. The worst that happens is you get embarrassed at being caught, no kicks to the ribs/head/nuts, no one pissing on you, no one robbing you etc. All this stuff about 'fighting for real in the gym' is nothing more than macho posturing by would be 'hard' men who think a 'trained fighter' is the worst you can encounter.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> It could be too that you don't have to _try_, you can do it anyway.
> 
> 
> All this macho stuff about sparring hard and 'real' lol, I've seen chaps like that in the gym but when it came to a real 'street' situation they froze.  Mental attitude just didn't match what their mouths were telling us.
> We've had accidental KOs in the gym and they don't really worry anyone because you know your opponent stops, you fall onto the mats, you get put in recovery position then helped up so nothing like real life. The worst that happens is you get embarrassed at being caught, no kicks to the ribs/head/nuts, no one pissing on you, no one robbing you etc. All this stuff about 'fighting for real in the gym' is nothing more than macho posturing by would be 'hard' men who think a 'trained fighter' is the worst you can encounter.


Id +Rep this post but they took it away...


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> No I'm a cop I test my skills in real life against real criminals  So I don't need to knock out my training partners to show how tough I am.



Not a big deal to me. Plenty to most cop can't fight very well, compared to trained fighters, if all they had is their cop training. That's why cops, Marines, Rangers, and whatever soldiers....join MMA gyms to get better at hand to hand combat. 

And what's real life? Pulling out a gun, take cover and wait for backup? One of my MMA friend for 10+ years is a BJJ brown belt, Boxer and a 20 year cop from Southeast DC. Where are you a cop at? I know cops from neighborhoods where 3BR townhouses starts at $800,000 and they're super nice, even when they're called out to the shopping mall to stop kids from illegally skateboarding.


----------



## Paul_D (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> People who've never sparred hard, for full knockouts....and regularly as part of their training, don't really know what a trained & experienced fighter can do in the ring and in the street.


Criminal are not skilled fighters.   You do not need to defeat highly skilled MMA fighters in self defence.   Muggers, rapists and other experienced criminals do not dedicate years of their life becoming highly skilled MMA fighters in order to get what they want from their victims.

They do not engage in sparring with their victims.  You are confusing fighting with self defence, they are two _different_ things.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> no all training has "rules"  that's the point.  Training isn't real and never will be.



But you're avoiding the question....do YOU, personally.... train with full powered strikes to the eyeballs and full powered strikes to the testicles? 

Check out this NYPD cop with his cop training in "real life":


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> They do not engage in sparring with their victims.  You are confusing fighting with self defence, they are two _different_ things.



Training as a fighter, is the highest level of Martial Arts training which is applicable in self defense. Because punching someone in the face to KO them, works just the same in the street.


----------



## Paul_D (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> So what's better than sparring in MMA?   You pretending to eye poke someone or pretending to squeeze their testicles?  Or do you actually train with real eye poking and real testicle kicking?


I am not sure where you are getting eye pokes and goring squeezes from, but anyway.

Again, you do not understand the nature of criminal violence, you are only able to  see self defence in terms of "fighting".  Do criminals bob and weave in and out of range from six feet away in a fighting stance? 

Pre-emptively striking a BOB or punch bag/mitt, learnign to get all of your power into the strike, not telegraphing your movement, exploding from a static position are more useful skills for self defence, than bobbing and weaving and throwing exploratory jabs in form six feet away in a fighting stance.

But what do I know, I don't train MMA so clearly have no ability to defend myself.




If your 50 year old mum came to you and wanted to learn self defence would you tell her she can't defend herself becasue she can't hold her own sparring against a skilled and trained cage fighter, or she can't role with BJJ blue belts?

Fighting is not the same as self defence.  Listen to the audio book, learn and understand the differences, until you do it is pointless to continue this cirucular discussion.

Goodbye


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Not a big deal to me. Plenty to most cop can't fight very well, compared to trained fighters, if all they had is their cop training. That's why cops, Marines, Rangers, and whatever soldiers....join MMA gyms to get better at hand to hand combat.


And even the cops that cant fight still go out and fight in REAL LIFE not the gym.  I was a Marine, Cop,and train in MMA Gyms.  Ive been to SWAT schools and Sniper Schools and have been to some of the most realistic training allover the world and guess what its still not real.


> And what's real life?


Let see in the last 15 years Ive been shot at 3 times, stabbed in the forearm once, jumped by 3 guys while arresting their cousin, been hit with a car twice, hit with Rocks, a brick, bottles, and a chair also twice. Ive arrested a serial Killer, fought guys high on PCP, LSD,METH,Crack, fought trained "fighters" collegiate wrestlers,gang bangers, Psychopaths, rapists, and killers.  Ive worked UnderCover in DC and Baltimore buying dope and had guns pulled on me knives pulled on me had people really try to KILL ME not just pretending in a gym...That is real life and not training. Training will never compare to real life


> Pulling out a gun, take cover and wait for backup?


Sometimes 


> One of my MMA friend for 10+ years is a BJJ brown belt, Boxer and a 20 year cop from Southeast DC.


Great so go ask him if training is anything like real life in SE DC


> Where are you a cop at? I know cops from neighborhoods where 3BR townhouses starts at $800,000 and they're super nice, even when they're called out to the shopping mall to stop kids from illegally skateboarding.


Im super nice also even when dealing with killers until they give me a reason not to be.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Training as a fighter, is the highest level of Martial Arts training which is applicable in self defense. Because punching someone in the face to KO them, works just the same in the street.


again sometimes it works.  You ever punch a guy high on PCP?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> But you're avoiding the question


I didnt avoid anything I answered you training isnt real 


> ....do YOU, personally.... train with full powered strikes to the eyeballs and full powered strikes to the testicles?


No because again training isnt real. 


> Check out this NYPD cop with his cop training in "real life":


and?


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

> Again, you do not understand the nature of criminal violence, you are only able to see self defence in terms of "fighting".



I've been in about 15 street fights and my family used to own a grocery store in the 'hood where I had to deal with bums all day long at the cash register, then I owned a business where I had to deposit $2k plus, in cash, twice a day....some days, up to $5k in cash....how about you/



> Do criminals bob and weave in and out of range from six feet away in a fighting stance?



Neither do fighters, why would anyone bob and weave from 6ft away? Who teaches you this stuff?



> Pre-emptively striking a BOB or punch bag/mitt, learnign to get all of your power into the strike, not telegraphing your movement, exploding from a static position are more useful skills for self defence, than bobbing and weaving and throwing exploratory jabs in form six feet away in a fighting stance.



 So you think that a fighter doesn't train to: hit first, hit as hard as possible, not telegraph, nor explode?  You should sell your secrets to Conor McGregor, who has TENS of MILLIONS of dollars riding on his next fight. Dude, where were you when Pacquaio was fighting Mayweather where he only made $120,000,000 vs. Mayweather making $180,000,000.  I'm sure Pacquaio could have used your advice.




> But what do I know, I don't train MMA so clearly have no ability to defend myself.



I totally agree.



> If your 50 year old mum came to you and wanted to learn self defence would you tell her she can't defend herself becasue she can't hold her own sparring against a skilled and trained cage fighter, or she can't role with BJJ blue belts?



I'd still train her to fight like a fighter because it's more realistic and the highest form of Martial Arts training.



> Fighting is not the same as self defence.  Listen to the audio book, learn and understand the differences, until you do it is pointless to continue this cirucular discussion.
> 
> Goodbye



No thanks, audio books, don't hit back.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Not a big deal to me. Plenty to most cop can't fight very well, compared to trained fighters, if all they had is their cop training. That's why cops, Marines, Rangers, and whatever soldiers....join MMA gyms to get better at hand to hand combat.



My gym is a military MMA one, the reason the military and the police join is to enjoy themselves, it helps with fitness and is a great stress reliever, the very reason they enjoy it is because it *isn't* real life. I train MMA but for self defence we have a difference class, our chief instructor is ex military police, does CP and does the doors in one of our hardest, roughest cities, as well as the odd bare knuckle gypsy fight, he doesn't rate MMA as a SD style though it has its uses but teaches self defence as some of our best SD experts do.



FriedRice said:


> And what's real life? Pulling out a gun, take cover and wait for backup? One of my MMA friend for 10+ years is a BJJ brown belt, Boxer and a 20 year cop from Southeast DC. Where are you a cop at? I know cops from neighborhoods where 3BR townhouses starts at $800,000 and they're super nice, even when they're called out to the shopping mall to stop kids from illegally skateboarding.



More macho posturing eh. Don't worry we won't laugh at you....much.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Criminal are not skilled fighters.


You would be surprised. Many do train. Both in prison and on the streets.  There is a certain MMA gym where I work that is notorious for gang members training there.  I once walked up on 4 young girls (10-14 years old)Beating the crap out of a 12 year old girl. When I broke it up the "Victim" said they were playing around so she could learn how to take a beating so she wouldn't be afraid in a fight


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> And even the cops that cant fight still go out and fight in REAL LIFE not the gym.  I was a Marine, Cop,and train in MMA Gyms.  Ive been to SWAT schools and Sniper Schools and have been to some of the most realistic training allover the world and guess what its still not real.
> 
> Let see in the last 15 years Ive been shot at 3 times, stabbed in the forearm once, jumped by 3 guys while arresting their cousin, been hit with a car twice, hit with Rocks, a brick, bottles, and a chair also twice. Ive arrested a serial Killer, fought guys high on PCP, LSD,METH,Crack, fought trained "fighters" collegiate wrestlers,gang bangers, Psychopaths, rapists, and killers.  Ive worked UnderCover in DC and Baltimore buying dope and had guns pulled on me knives pulled on me had people really try to KILL ME not just pretending in a gym...That is real life and not training. Training will never compare to real life
> 
> ...



If all of this means anything as to what we were arguing about, then you shouldn't have any problems gloving up  and see how well you'd do against and MMA fighter. 

I mean, do you train with live bullets vs. other cops or something?  Have you trained like this before: 

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> I didnt avoid anything I answered you training isnt real
> 
> No because again training isnt real.
> 
> and?




Trying to KO someone while they're trying to do the same to you, in training (SOMETIMES)....is much more real than pretending to with pretend strikes.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> I've been in about 15 street fights and my family used to own a grocery store in the 'hood where I had to deal with bums all day long at the cash register, then I owned a business where I had to deposit $2k plus, in cash, twice a day....some days, up to $5k in cash....how about you/



Woohoo, 15 street fights, impressive...not. I was called out to deal with many in the first few months of my starting work, trying to break up fights in pubs and clubs when those fighting against each other gang up and turn on you is a tad more interesting. As for carrying that much money security guards here do that every day.

You do know that Conor McGregor doesn't spar to KO right? In fact like most MMA fighters he doesn't spar that hard because he and they simply cannot risk being injured before a big fight. I would suggest that you don't actually know how a fighter trains.



ballen0351 said:


> . There is a certain MMA gym where I work that is notorious for gang members training there.I



We have a couple of them, the most notorious fighter I know is Lee Murray, the way he fought in MMA comps was nothing like the way he fought outside it.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> My gym is a military MMA one, the reason the military and the police join is to enjoy themselves, it helps with fitness and is a great stress reliever, the very reason they enjoy it is because it *isn't* real life. I train MMA but for self defence we have a difference class, our chief instructor is ex military police, does CP and does the doors in one of our hardest, roughest cities, as well as the odd bare knuckle gypsy fight, he doesn't rate MMA as a SD style though it has its uses but teaches self defence as some of our best SD experts do.
> 
> More macho posturing eh. Don't worry we won't laugh at you....much.



Sounds like WMMA  

And don't soldiers have assault rifles, 200-300 rounds of ammo, a sidearm, grenades, a radio, other soldiers, tanks, air support and supply trucks? And when all fails or runs out, their field knife? Why would soldiers need to train H2H to be anywhere near the levels of a fighter, when they at least have that big field knife?  

That's why most soldiers aren't even close, to being good fighters;


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> If all of this means anything as to what we were arguing about, then you shouldn't have any problems gloving up  and see how well you'd do against and MMA fighter.


When did I say I havent?  I also never said MMA training wasn't a good thing.  I said training no matter how real can never reach the same level of reality since no matter how"tough" your school is they still have rules and safety measures in place


> I mean, do you train with live bullets vs. other cops or something?  Have you trained like this before:
> 
> Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


We train with simunitions (basically realistic paintball guns) and guess what its still not real.  It never reaches the same stress and Adrenalin and fear as doing it for real because if I screw up and get shot I don't really die it just stings a little


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 15, 2016)

I finally figured out how to make my dick 12 inches long: fold it in half.

Hey, as long as we are comparing our peckers I thought I'd join in.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I finally figured out how to make my dick 12 inches long: fold it in half.



I'd be more impressed if you could lick your eyebrows.



FriedRice said:


> That's why most soldiers aren't even close, to being good fighters;



ROFLMAO, I see you have never met British squaddies out of uniform and out on the town.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Woohoo, 15 street fights, impressive...not. I was called out to deal with many in the first few months of my starting work, trying to break up fights in pubs and clubs when those fighting against each other gang up and turn on you is a tad more interesting.



Oooh, scary...wish I knew what it was like to be an old woman and be able to step up to dudes w/o much repercussion.



> As for carrying that much money security guards here do that every day.



And don't they have shotguns (or at least pistols) and would readily give it up because it's not their money. Armed security guards in the USA makes a little more than minimum wage, what  about where you're from?



> You do know that Conor McGregor doesn't spar to KO right? In fact like most MMA fighters he doesn't spar that hard because he and they simply cannot risk being injured before a big fight. I would suggest that you don't actually know how a fighter trains.



You obviously don't know Connor McGregor neither nor have you fought in full contact fights. What he said on TUF was based on the little time that the fighters had there (on the show) and
how many fights they potentially had to fight in such short time...which is why they shouldn't go hard. He also doesn't go hard, often in his own training (and philosophy) but show me where McGregor said that he never sparred hard, otherwise you're just making this up.

And isn't it also a given that no fighter should spar hard right "before a big fight" or any fight?



> We have a couple of them, the most notorious fighter I know is Lee Murray, the way he fought in MMA comps was nothing like the way he fought outside it.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> ROFLMAO, I see you have never met British squaddies out of uniform and out on the town.



Why, were you one before the procedure?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Oooh, scary...wish I knew what it was like to be an old woman and be able to step up to dudes w/o much repercussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sparring hard and sparring to try to purposely Knock your partner "out cold" are two different things.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I'd be more impressed if you could lick your eyebrows.


Oh I can, and it is most impressive and effective.  Just ask around, people will tell you. Ahem.

However, that is a different thing from comparing dicks.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> When did I say I havent?  I also never said MMA training wasn't a good thing.  I said training no matter how real can never reach the same level of reality since no matter how"tough" your school is they still have rules and safety measures in place
> 
> 
> > Getting knocked out is as real as it gets. You're incapacitated. Technically, your life is at the mercy of the guy who KO'ed you, if that was in a dark alley somewhere.
> ...


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Sparring hard and sparring to try to purposely Knock your partner "out cold" are two different things.



Incorrect. This depends on your gym's definition. Getting caught in the chin with most of these punches will knock most people out cold:


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Incorrect. This depends on your gym's definition. Getting caught in the chin with most of these punches will knock most people out cold:


Yes accidentally knocking someone out when training hard happens and is expected.  Purposely trying to hurt someone is reckless and unnecessary


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Getting knocked out is as real as it gets. You're incapacitated. Technically, your life is at the mercy of the guy who KO'ed you, if that was in a dark alley somewhere.
> 
> No one dies in regular training is because the guy who did the knocking out, stopped on his own or was stopped by the Ref.


Correct rules like Ive been saying its not real


> If you can't stop some average, Amateur MMA fighter from knocking you out with giant pillows for Boxing gloves on, in a controlled environment.....then my point was, your ability to really defend yourself should be improved, AND, you're not as competent as you thought you were....like this cop:


And just because you can stop some average, amateur MMA fighter in a ring with rules means little in the real world. Its better then nothing which is why we train but it really means nothing until your in the real thing.  Ive seen trained SWAT officers freeze with the "paper targets"
 are now real live men and shoot back at you


> I remember getting shot at. It wasn't stressful at all, and felt surreal. Like I was in a trance and it wasn't really happening as I reacted. Then it was over, so quickly, as the thug ran out the store. While sparring hard against someone that I know who beats me 9 out of 10 times....is way more stressful.


Its not the getting shot at part that's stressful. Its knowing your going to get shot at when you go through that door and doing it anyway


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh I can, and it is most impressive and effective.  Just ask around, people will tell you. Ahem.
> 
> However, that is a different thing from comparing dicks.



However no one is actually comparing dicks ( just as well otherwise I would lose before beginning), what we have is someone telling us that sparring in the gym and fighting in an MMA comp is the best thing you can do to learn self defence, we are pointing out that it's not, why it's not and how we know it's not. So what we have is youngster's ( in mind if not physical age) braggadocio compared to the world weary, rather cynical and definitely experienced police officers real life testimony, so not even a case of comparing dicks more like  'look son, I know you are excited about your MMA class but really, trust me when we say and MMA fight is not like the scuffles you had as a kid'.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> However no one is actually comparing dicks ( just as well otherwise I would lose before beginning), what we have is someone telling us that sparring in the gym and fighting in an MMA comp is the best thing you can do to learn self defence, we are pointing out that it's not, why it's not and how we know it's not. So what we have is youngster's ( in mind if not physical age) braggadocio compared to the world weary, rather cynical and definitely experienced police officers real life testimony, so not even a case of comparing dicks more like  'look son, I know you are excited about your MMA class but really, trust me when we say and MMA fight is not like the scuffles you had as a kid'.


oh yeah, i see it and I get it.  But there was a fair bit of dick comparison going on as well.  The young-uns can't help themselves.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Yes accidentally knocking someone out when training hard happens and is expected.  Purposely trying to hurt someone is reckless and unnecessary



No. When I'm purposefully trying to punch my partner, flushed on the chin at 50-70% power (medium sparring), it's no accident if I knock him out. At 71-100% power during hard sparring, it's definitely not an accident as I'm trying to KO him.

And light sparring can at times, spike ot Medium or Hard sparring. It just depends on the gym.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> And light sparring can at times, spike ot Medium or Hard sparring. It just depends on the gym.



Gyms that are training professional fighters are very focussed on certain things, and sparring to KO each other isn't one of them for the reasons I've already given, frankly I'd leave them out of any discussion on self defence. They are doing one job and one job only to win in the ring/cage. Other gyms where the testosterone level is high and young people are out to prove a point may well go overboard on the sparring, won't hurt them much, perhaps pride but it's a safe place to try and bang each other out, again though it's not self defence training. They may be able to KO each other quite successfully but outside the gym, probably not so much, rush of blood to the head, and 'yay I do this in the gym' will get them into trouble, they may even be fighting when it's not necessary.
There's no doubt that many MMA fighters can defend themselves if attacked outside competition but and this is a very big but, they change tactics, they don't play to the rules and they may not be looking to KO the attacker but rather to disengage with the least damage to themselves. MMA people are martial artists who like other martial artists will defend themselves but MMA in itself and hard sparring in itself doesn't mean much, it's always techniques and 'headology' that works, not the ability to KO someone in a gym.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Correct rules like Ive been saying its not real



Incorrect. A KO is an incapacitation. You are now helpless on your own after being KO'ed, regardless of where it took place. 



> And just because you can stop some average, amateur MMA fighter in a ring with rules means little in the real world.



My point has always been that, the average cop/soldier with only their department's training will lose in H2H combat vs. most Amateur MMA Fighters, there size & weight. 

A KO is much worse in the street as your head can crack on the way down, hitting the cement and you die. You are now at the mercy of your attacker who can head stomp 
your unconscious self until brain oozes out. How is this not the real world? And who's going to be better at KO'ing people....you, who don't spar hard or some average
Ammy MMA Fighter who does? Now get into the Pro MMA fighters at  merely the local level who's like ranked #300 or some crap, he's going to be much better than that Ammy fighter who 
just dropped you....and he's not even close to anywhere near, UFC level yet.



> Its better then nothing which is why we train but it really means nothing until your in the real thing.  Ive seen trained SWAT officers freeze with the "paper targets"
> are now real live men and shoot back at you



Shooting a gun is not the same. I probably shoot just as much or more at the range than the average cop. Most cops have never even been in a firefight, all the way to retirement. 



> Its not the getting shot at part that's stressful. Its knowing your going to get shot at when you go through that door and doing it anyway



Well I should hope that a cop would have better training doing this than an MMA fighter.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> oh yeah, i see it and I get it.  But there was a fair bit of dick comparison going on as well.  The young-uns can't help themselves.



being closer to dying of old age, is hardly anything to brag about.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Incorrect. A KO is an incapacitation. You are now helpless on your own after being KO'ed, regardless of where it took place.


Yes but once your KO'ed its over. The ref o someone steps in and saves you.  That doesnt always happen in the real world




> My point has always been that, the average cop/soldier with only their department's training will lose in H2H combat vs. most Amateur MMA Fighters, there size & weight.


Nonsense.  Each department has its own unique self defense programs.  Some might loose some might win.  BUT in the end The police or military will win because we dont fight fair.


> A KO is much worse in the street as your head can crack on the way down, hitting the cement and you die. You are now at the mercy of your attacker who can head stomp
> your unconscious self until brain oozes out. How is this not the real world?


That is real world fighting in a gym with padded floors and rules are not.


> And who's going to be better at KO'ing people....you, who don't spar hard or some average
> Ammy MMA Fighter who does?


I dont need to ever "spar" to be able to knock someone out so who knows who will be better?  I personally have knocked people out so my lack of "hard" sparing means little


> Now get into the Pro MMA fighters at  merely the local level who's like ranked #300 or some crap, he's going to be much better than that Ammy fighter who
> just dropped you....and he's not even close to anywhere near, UFC level yet.


Yeah if we are fighting within the rules of his sport.  I said before I dont fight fair.  I have OC Spray,Tasers, batons, and guns and lots of friends so...Good luck to him



> Shooting a gun is not the same. I probably shoot just as much or more at the range than the average cop. Most cops have never even been in a firefight, all the way to retirement.


and? The point wasn't who shoots better.  It was that when things get "REAL" you have no idea how you are going to react. NO amount of training simulates real life


----------



## Buka (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> I've been in about 15 street fights and my family used to own a grocery store in the 'hood where I had to deal with bums all day long at the cash register, then I owned a business where I had to deposit $2k plus, in cash, twice a day....some days, up to $5k in cash....



I know how difficult and dangerous running a store like that is. Sometimes it's scary. But you know what? When it gets over the top and you need help.....guys like ballen0351 show up and help you.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Gyms that are training professional fighters are very focussed on certain things, and sparring to KO each other isn't one of them for the reasons I've already given, frankly I'd leave them out of any discussion on self defence.  They are doing one job and one job only to win in the ring/cage. Other gyms where the testosterone level is high and young people are out to prove a point may well go overboard on the sparring, won't hurt them much, perhaps pride but it's a safe place to try and bang each other out, again though it's not self defence training.



You make it sound like I said that sparring for KO's is everyday or something. Is your gym on the same level as America's Top Team or The Blackzilians?  Many sparring sessions, if I didn't take a knee vs. their lower level Pro fighters, I was going to get KTFO.

 [/QUOTE]  They may be able to KO each other quite successfully but outside the gym, probably not so much, rush of blood to the head, and 'yay I do this in the gym' will get them into trouble, they may even be fighting when it's not necessary.  [/QUOTE]

Incorrect. There are rarely any KO's in the gym. Even less head KO's. Most of my successful KO's while sparring in fighting gyms over a span of 10 years are from spinning back kicks to the liver. Only 1 to the head. The only streetfight involving an MMA trained adult at my gym, that I've ever heard of in this same 10 years was from a female....ONE, that's it. Who would want  to go to jail and/or get sued?



> There's no doubt that many MMA fighters can defend themselves if attacked outside competition but and this is a very big but, they change tactics, they don't play to the rules and they may not be looking to KO the attacker but rather to disengage with the least damage to themselves. MMA people are martial artists who like other martial artists will defend themselves but MMA in itself and hard sparring in itself doesn't mean much, it's always techniques and 'headology' that works, not the ability to KO someone in a gym.




























ufc mma fighter vs street fighter


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Oh Not another member of the Church of Youtube


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Yes but once your KO'ed its over. The ref o someone steps in and saves you.  That doesnt always happen in the real world



Who saves you in the street when you get KO'ed?



> Nonsense.  Each department has its own unique self defense programs.  Some might loose some might win.  BUT in the end The police or military will win because we dont fight fair.



Well no duh if you're going to pull a gun on someone in the street that's serving a beatdown to your face, and shoot them to win. Good for you.

How many cops got ambushed recently, while just sitting in their car? How many peasants in sandals w/AK's and hardly any training have managed to kill many US soldiers for the past 70+ years? They certainly didn't fight fair neither. So now what, all should train and carry AK-47's everywhere?



> That is real world fighting in a gym with padded floors and rules are not.
> 
> I dont need to ever "spar" to be able to knock someone out so who knows who will be better?  I personally have knocked people out so my lack of "hard" sparing means little
> 
> ...



If you were to tell me that you're near your golden years and can't risk your money-maker, that I'd accept as a good excuse.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Who saves you in the street when you get KO'ed?


ME



> Well no duh if you're going to pull a gun on someone in the street that's serving a beatdown to your face, and shoot them to win. Good for you.


Well thats certainly a possibility since in the street there are no rules and no ref to stop the beat down to my face to the point I DIE so yeah good for me


> How many cops got ambushed recently, while just sitting in their car? How many peasants in sandals w/AK's and hardly any training have managed to kill many US soldiers for the past 70+ years? They certainly didn't fight fair neither. So now what, all should train and carry AK-47's everywhere?


Well I do carry a gun everywhere for self defense so yeah but thats not the topic​


> If you were to tell me that you're near your golden years and can't risk your money-maker, that I'd accept as a good excuse.


No Im telling you the street has no rules Ive pulled guns off 10 year old kids, blades off teen girls so weapons are one more thing you need to think about in the real world that you dont worry about in the ring where a ref checks you before entering


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Criminal are not skilled fighters.   You do not need to defeat highly skilled MMA fighters in self defence.   Muggers, rapists and other experienced criminals do not dedicate years of their life becoming highly skilled MMA fighters in order to get what they want from their victims.
> 
> They do not engage in sparring with their victims.  You are confusing fighting with self defence, they are two _different_ things.



Is there a whole list of this stuff what criminals are and what they do? 

Why wouldnt a criminal train to fight?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> ME
> 
> 
> Well thats certainly a possibility since in the street there are no rules and no ref to stop the beat down to my face to the point I DIE so yeah good for me
> ...



So are you advocating streetfighting as the best method to train self defence?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> ROFLMAO, I see you have never met British squaddies out of uniform and out on the town.



They are whiney generally. As a mate of mine once said.  "you cant even invade our pub.  How do you protect your country"


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So are you advocating streetfighting as the best method to train self defence?


no not at all.  Im not advocating anything.  I'm simply saying the cage and the class are not the same as real life and to think otherwise is foolish


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

While the cage and class isn't the same as "real life", to pretend that abilities learned in the cage or class aren't applicable to "da streetz" is utter and complete nonsense.

If you're not learning to hit, or take a hit in class, its pretty doubtful that you'll be able to pull it off when your life depends on it.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Incorrect. There are rarely any KO's in the gym. Even less head KO's. Most of my successful KO's while sparring in fighting gyms over a span of 10 years are from spinning back kicks to the liver. Only 1 to the head. The only streetfight involving an MMA trained adult at my gym, that I've ever heard of in this same 10 years was from a female....ONE, that's it. Who would want to go to jail and/or get sued?



How can it be incorrect when I said 'they may'?
Spinning back kicks to the liver? Really? As you are an adherent of the Church of Video you must a video of that because I would really really like to see that. In over 17 years in MMA and 40 in TMA I've see a lot of KO's and TKOs, never seen a 'spinning back kick' do one.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Criminal are not skilled fighters.   You do not need to defeat highly skilled MMA fighters in self defence.   Muggers, rapists and other experienced criminals do not dedicate years of their life becoming highly skilled MMA fighters in order to get what they want from their victims.
> 
> They do not engage in sparring with their victims.  You are confusing fighting with self defence, they are two _different_ things.


Unfortunately, I can think of many high level martial artist who were rapists and experienced criminals.   I think you have a skewed impression of how most women are rped and by whom.  It's usually people they know and trust.  Like their bjj coach.

Many is subjective.   I can think of several cases I've read about over the last few years.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> While the cage and class isn't the same as "real life", to pretend that abilities learned in the cage or class aren't applicable to "da streetz" is utter and complete nonsense.
> 
> If you're not learning to hit, or take a hit in class, its pretty doubtful that you'll be able to pull it off when your life depends on it.


and to pretend because you can do it in the cage you can do it in real life is equally nonsense.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> However no one is actually comparing dicks ( just as well otherwise I would lose before beginning), what we have is someone telling us that sparring in the gym and fighting in an MMA comp is the best thing you can do to learn self defence, we are pointing out that it's not, why it's not and how we know it's not. So what we have is youngster's ( in mind if not physical age) braggadocio compared to the world weary, rather cynical and definitely experienced police officers real life testimony, so not even a case of comparing dicks more like  'look son, I know you are excited about your MMA class but really, trust me when we say and MMA fight is not like the scuffles you had as a kid'.


The lesson here is that the best self defense training is to work as a cop.  I can buy that, although it might not be practical for everyone.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> and to pretend because you can do it in the cage you can do it in real life is equally nonsense.



Not equally, no. I learned and used the guard in class, and I used it effectively in a self defense situation as well. We've posted examples of women surviving rape attempts via the Triangle Choke, which they no doubt learned in class or the cage.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Not equally, no. I learned and used the guard in class, and I used it effectively in a self defense situation as well. We've posted examples of women surviving rape attempts via the Triangle Choke, which they no doubt learned in class or the cage.


and?  i didn't say it never works.  I said it's not the same.  I've seen very highly trained people,freeze when the bullets fly for real.  I've seen people freeze the first time a bad dude attacks them,  why because it's real this,time.  So while any training is better then no training just because you train doesn't mean it will work in the real world like it did in class.  Like I asked have you ever tried to punch, or in your case arm,bar a guy high on PCP?


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> and?  i didn't say it never works.  I said it's not the same.  I've seen very highly trained people,freeze when the bullets fly for real.  I've seen people freeze the first time a bad dude attacks them,  why because it's real this,time.  So while any training is better then no training just because you train doesn't mean it will work in the real world like it did in class.  Like I asked have you ever tried to punch, or in your case arm,bar a guy high on PCP?



So essentially you're arguing nothing here because no one is saying what you're arguing against. What DB and Fried are saying is that MMA style training is effective for self defense and self protection because it teaches you how to fight off trained people of various sizes. If you can fight off trained people, you have a better chance of being able to fight off less trained people. As you said, being trained is better than not being trained.

As for the guy high on PCP, I'd choke him out. Fortunately I know a nice variety of chokes and how to apply them from years of MMA style training.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> The lesson here is that the best self defense training is to work as a cop.  I can buy that, although it might not be practical for everyone.



Well only if you want to be a cop.  If you were afraid of being mugged.  You probably should just walk wads of cash through bad neighborhoods.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> The lesson here is that the best self defense training is to work as a cop.  I can buy that, although it might not be practical for everyone.


no the best self defense training is experience actually defending yourself but that's not practical for most people.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Well only if you want to be a cop.  If you were afraid of being mugged.  You probably should just walk wads of cash through bad neighborhoods.


 just trying to figure out what tez and ballen are going on about.  It's either that you really need to be a cop, or you need to be British, to learn self defense.   Not sure for tez, but I think ballen is in the cop camp.  Could that be considered a cop out? 

Of course, this all changes from thread to thread.  It's a fluid kind of logic that focuses on flaws in a competitive training model without really applying the same lens to non-competitive training.    Some times, it's just anything but MMA is good for self defense.  Sometimes it's anti sport.   I think mostly, it's just anti-hanzou.  Sorry, hanzou!


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> So essentially you're arguing nothing here because no one is saying what you're arguing against. What DB and Fried are saying is that MMA style training is effective for self defense and self protection because it teaches you how to fight off trained people of various sizes. If you can fight off trained people, you have a better chance of being able to fight off less trained people. As you said, being trained is better than not being trained.


I'm not arguing anything.  Im saying just because you can do it in practice doesn't mean you can do it when your life is in danger. 


> As for the guy high on PCP, I'd choke him out. Fortunately I know a nice variety of chokes and how to apply them from years of MMA style training.


good luck lol


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> just trying to figure out what tez and ballen are going on about.  It's either that you really need to be a cop, or you need to be British, to learn self defense.   Not sure for tez, but I think ballen is in the cop camp.  Could that be considered a cop out?
> 
> Of course, this all changes from thread to thread.  It's a fluid kind of logic that focuses on flaws in a competitive training model without really applying the same lens to non-competitive training.    Some times, it's just anything but MMA is good for self defense.  Sometimes it's anti sport.   I think mostly, it's just anti-hanzou.  Sorry, hanzou!


Well hanzou wasn't here when we started this topic so there goes that but nice try being the instigator that seems to be you MO anyway so carry on.....as for the rest I've said several times all training to include non-competative is just not real


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> no the best self defense training is experience actually defending yourself but that's not practical for most people.


So then it's pointless, really... For most people.   Right?  or maybe, given this, MMA is better than playing bingo at the senior hall.  You are so slick.   Must be your interviewing techniques training.   What is it... Wicklander zulowski?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> no not at all.  Im not advocating anything.  I'm simply saying the cage and the class are not the same as real life and to think otherwise is foolish



No.  It is the wrong way of looking at it.  So today we had a ripping hot boxer try kickboxing sparring. Now he has had no technical training in kickboxing. But his boxing has given him these meta conceps of movement physicality timing and so on that he could use to adopt the tactics of kickboxing. 

Now not only is the street different to the cage.  The street is different to the street.  You have to adapt as the situation adapts and to do that your basic skill set needs to be trained and then situational tactics aplied to that. 

So sparring resisted training and competition is where you find your ability to apply these basic methods.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> So then it's pointless, really... For most people.   Right?


Well in reality it is pointless since most people will never use MMA or TMA or any other MA to actually defend themselves.





> or maybe, given this, MMA is better than playing bingo at the senior hall.  You are so slick.   Must be your interviewing techniques training.   What is it... Wicklander zulowski?


 again try following along you showed up late I've never argued MMA was bad so cool your jets I said because you are king of the ring means little in the real world because it's just not the same.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So sparring resisted training and competition is where you find your ability to apply these basic methods.


perhaps and all that goes out the window when you add factors that are against the rules and not trained for in sport


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> So essentially you're arguing nothing here because no one is saying what you're arguing against. What DB and Fried are saying is that MMA style training is effective for self defense and self protection because it teaches you how to fight off trained people of various sizes. If you can fight off trained people, you have a better chance of being able to fight off less trained people. As you said, being trained is better than not being trained.
> 
> As for the guy high on PCP, I'd choke him out. Fortunately I know a nice variety of chokes and how to apply them from years of MMA style training.



Crush their throat. It seems to reset their brains a bit. 

Now this becomes my point. I dont have to teach hanzaou a whole toolset to get that crush on.  He already has the positional basics.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not arguing anything.  Im saying just because you can do it in practice doesn't mean you can do it when your life is in danger.



But on the other hand we have countless examples of people being able to perform techniques on bad guys because of their training in the gym/cage.



> good luck lol



Well it's true, someone completely tripped out on drugs is pretty resilient to pain, but they still need air to breathe and oxygen for their brains. Further, their level of hyper-activity will cause the choke to effect them faster than normal.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> perhaps and all that goes out the window when you add factors that are against the rules and not trained for in sport



Really what do you think specifically compromises basic skills?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Crush their throat. It seems to reset their brains a bit.
> 
> Now this becomes my point. I dont have to teach hanzaou a whole toolset to get that crush on.  He already has the positional basics.


again good luck..


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> But on the other hand we have countless examples of people being able to perform techniques on bad guys because of their training in the gym/cage.


and we have countless examples of people that never stepped foot in a cage or gym doing the same thing.  Again I,never said it won't work.  I said claiming just because you can do,it in a gym doesn't mean you can in real life





> Well it's true, someone completely tripped out on drugs is pretty resilient to pain, but they still need air to breathe and oxygen for their brains. Further, their level of hyper-activity will cause the choke to effect them faster than normal.


yeah the problem is getting into the position to apply the choke.  They don't tend to just lay down and let you choke them.  So,again good luck.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> yeah the problem is getting into the position to apply the choke.  They don't tend to just lay down and let you choke them.  So,again good luck.



Yeah, people don't tend to just lay down and let you choke them in Bjj or MMA either.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Really what do you think specifically compromises basic skills?


nothing compromises the skills im,talking about when,the skills don't work like multiple attackers, weapons, drugs and drinking by both you or the attacker, environmental concerns injuries to you.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, people don't tend to just lay down and let you choke them in Bjj or MMA either.


they also are not high on PCP in the gym either


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> being closer to dying of old age, is hardly anything to brag about.


Oh are we still comparing?  Ok I'll go next...

It's thick and kinda veiny and with a bulbous head. Kinda purplish, depending on the weather...


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Well in reality it is pointless since most people will never use MMA or TMA or any other MA to actually defend themselves. again try following along you showed up late I've never argued MMA was bad so cool your jets I said because you are king of the ring means little in the real world because it's just not the same.


alright.   Progress.   So, you're saying that self defense training is pointless for most people.   I'm really glad to hear You take a position, rather than just play the contrarian.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> alright.   Progress.   So, you're saying that self defense training is pointless for most people.   I'm really glad to hear You take a position, rather than just play the contrarian.


you don't need to read anyone of my posts Steve and I'm not,here looking for your approval so are you going to contribute to the topic or just paraphrase my posts?


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> they also are not high on PCP in the gym either



And unfortunately you can't perfectly replicate the effects of drugs in the gym. What you can do is train/fight against people larger and stronger than you are so that technique can overcome a strength or size disadvantage.  If you can overcome a much bigger guy spazzing out on you while you're applying a choke, you're in pretty good shape.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> And unfortunately you can't perfectly replicate the effects of drugs in the gym. What you can do is train/fight against people larger and stronger than you are so that technique can overcome a strength or size disadvantage.  If you can overcome a much bigger guy spazzing out on you while you're applying a choke, you're in pretty good shape.


lol ok if you say so.  Stonger isn't really the problem with them...but hey you train in a Gym so you know it all


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> nothing compromises the skills im,talking about when,the skills don't work like multiple attackers, weapons, drugs and drinking by both you or the attacker, environmental concerns injuries to you.



The tactics might change the basic skills era mostly don't.

A guy who has good footwork effective striking and good defence will be more able to deal with multiple attackers weapons and fight when they are drunk than someone who dosent.

Strangely a person with good footwork etc will be better at sparring resisted training and competition.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The tactics might change the basic skills era mostly don't.
> 
> A guy who has good footwork effective striking and good defence will be more able to deal with multiple attackers weapons and fight when they are drunk than someone who dosent.
> 
> Strangely a person with good footwork etc will be better at sparring resisted training and competition.


and none of that will replicate the emotional, mental, and fear so again it's better then nothing but being good in class means little


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> yeah the problem is getting into the position to apply the choke. They don't tend to just lay down and let you choke them. So,again good luck



Because it is not the choke that is the real skill. It is the basic fundamental concepts applied well.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> you don't need to read anyone of my posts Steve and I'm not,here looking for your approval so are you going to contribute to the topic or just paraphrase my posts?


I love reading your posts, ballen.   You are at times really, really funny. 

And I think discussing your views on martial arts for self defense in a thread entitled "martial arts for self defense" is kind of in the wheelhouse of "on topic."  Don't get me wrong.   Not JUST your views.  But they're not off topic.  

Of course, you can take your own advice.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> and none of that will replicate the emotional, mental, and fear so again it's better then nothing but being good in class means little



Doing street fights do not protect you from fear or emotions.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> I love reading your posts, ballen.   You are at times really, really funny.
> 
> And I think discussing your views on martial arts for self defense in a thread entitled "martial arts for self defense" is kind of in the wheelhouse of "on topic."  Don't get me wrong.   Not JUST your views.  But they're not off topic.
> 
> Of course, you can take your own advice.


so no you have nothing of value to add to the thread your just here to stalk certain posters...got it guess it's my turn today...


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Doing street fights do not protect you from fear or emotions.


never said they did.  I said just because you can do it in the gym doesn't mean you can when it's for real


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Because it is not the choke that is the real skill. It is the basic fundamental concepts applied well.


yeah you keep saying that again good luck


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> lol ok if you say so.  Stronger isn't really the problem with them...but hey you train in a Gym so you know it all



I never said that stronger was the problem. I'm saying that training with stronger and larger opponents increases your ability to control someone. If a 150 lb person can control and dominate an opponent who outweighs them by 100-150 lbs, they really shouldn't have much problem controlling someone their size or slightly larger who is acting crazy or under the effects of drugs.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I never said that stronger was the problem. I'm saying that training with stronger and larger opponents increases your ability to control someone. If a 150 lb person can control and dominate an opponent who outweighs them by 100-150 lbs, they really shouldn't have much problem controlling someone their size or slightly larger who is acting crazy or under the effects of drugs.


lol ok...


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> lol ok...



Stay in Bjj a bit longer. You'll know exactly what I'm talking about soon enough.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Stay in Bjj a bit longer. You'll know exactly what I'm talking about soon enough.


 try fighting a guy high on PCP and you will learn how,wrong you are


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I'm saying that training with stronger and larger opponents increases your ability to control someone. If a 150 lb person can control and dominate an opponent who outweighs them by 100-150 lbs, they really shouldn't have much problem controlling someone their size or slightly larger who is acting crazy or under the effects of drugs.


This may be true for the ground game since "speed" is not important in the ground game at all. But for the stand up game this may not be true. I have always liked to find the biggest and strongest opponent to wrestle. One day my teacher asked me to wrestle with a guy who is 20 lb less weight than me. During the wrestling match, I had to move fast and respond fast. I then realized that big and strong opponent may give me enough challenge on my strength. But it doesn't give me enough challenge on my speed. After I had wrestled with some light weight guys, suddenly my watch started to run faster.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This may be true for the ground game. But for the stand up game this may not be true. I have always liked to find the biggest and strongest opponent to wrestle. One day my teacher asked me to wrestle with a guy who is 20 lb less weight than me. During the wrestling match, I had to move fast and respond fast. I then realized that big and strong opponent may give me enough challenge on my strength. But it doesn't give me enough challenge on my speed. After I had wrestled with some light weight guys, suddenly my watch started to run faster.



Yeah, the ground game helps neutralize a lot of advantages that a bigger/stronger person has. 

Hence why having excellent takedowns is important.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> try fighting a guy high on PCP and you will learn how,wrong you are



So let's flip this around a bit;

Do you believe that a Karate master could stop a guy who is high on PCP?

Someone like say Masaji Taira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> So let's flip this around a bit;
> 
> Do you believe that a Karate master could stop a guy who is high on PCP?
> 
> Someone like say Masaji Taira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ?


Well you picked one of the top guys is the world who also happens to have been a police officer so..


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> never said they did.  I said just because you can do it in the gym doesn't mean you can when it's for real



This line of argument makes no sense. You are suggesting one situation is not the same as another. Any situation is not the same as another. It negates the advantage of training or preparing.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> try fighting a guy high on PCP and you will learn how,wrong you are



Try using karate on an elephant. Proof it is ineffective.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Well you picked one of the top guys is the world who also happens to have been a police officer so..



Top guys in the world in what exactly? Has he won any championships? Has he defeated anyone in combat?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Honestly Hanzou I think alot of people can stop people high on PCP but not always every person high on PCP acts different.  That's not really the point.  The point was some of them are so unpredictable and feel no pain and is a totally different animal then anything you can practice in the ring.  Can you still stop them sure we do it all the time but to make the claim,that "well im,a bad *** in the gym so I can pick butt on the street" doent fly with me.  I've done both in the gym and on the street they are FAR different


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Try using karate on an elephant. Proof it is ineffective.


what's that have to do with anything we have no elephants here so


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> ME
> 
> 
> Well thats certainly a possibility since in the street there are no rules and no ref to stop the beat down to my face to the point I DIE so yeah good for me
> ...



Yea, I'd pull out my gun too if I wasn't good at fighting.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> They are whiney generally. As a mate of mine once said.  "you cant even invade our pub.  How do you protect your country"



Ok, now that's definitely funny.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Top guys in the world in what exactly? Has he won any championships? Has he defeated anyone in combat?


 he is one of the top Goju teachers in the world.  Championships? Yawn who cares.  Combat? I have no idea and irrelevant


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Yea, I'd pull out my gun too if I wasn't good at fighting.


lol ok little fella


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> he is one of the top Goju teachers in the world.  Championships? Yawn who cares.  Combat? I have no idea and irrelevant



Karate isn't a combative martial art?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Karate isn't a combative martial art?


I don't know it has Kata so according to you no


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> I don't know it has Kata so according to you no



So how exactly would he stop someone on PCP?

Kata dance off?


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Yea, I'd pull out my gun too if I wasn't good at fighting.



UK police aren't armed so a bit difficult to do that.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> How can it be incorrect when I said 'they may'?
> Spinning back kicks to the liver? Really? As you are an adherent of the Church of Video you must a video of that because I would really really like to see that. In over 17 years in MMA and 40 in TMA I've see a lot of KO's and TKOs, never seen a 'spinning back kick' do one.



Incorrect again. You said:  " They may be able to KO each other quite successfully but outside the gym," --Tex3

This implies that KO's happens somewhat often or even quite often, which I replied that you're wrong, as it only happens very rarely. If you actually have fought full contact, you'd know that it's very difficult to KO someone of similar skill level. And we don't go for the KO on people significantly less experienced and we go very light on all the women, which you should know this part already. 

And no videos. I don't go around recording myself in every sparring class as this would be pretty weird.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> So how exactly would he stop someone on PCP?


I don't know im,not him


> Kata dance off?


don't you have some sweaty man to cuddle with on the floor just don't make eye contact that's  when it gets weird


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Like I asked have you ever tried to punch, or in your case arm,bar a guy high on PCP?



I bet I'd have a much  better chance punching a guy on PCP and KO'ing him than you would.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> I said because you are king of the ring means little in the real world because it's just not the same.



It's usually a lot easier in the street because most people can't fight.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> I bet I'd have a much  better chance punching a guy on PCP and KO'ing him than you would.


ok little guy


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> It's usually a lot easier in the street because most people can't fight.


"most people" are not who you don't need to worry about.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> lol ok little fella



ok fat cop.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> ok fat cop.


keeps me warm.  But I can loose weight your just screwed


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> UK police aren't armed so a bit difficult to do that.



Not everything's about you.  Heck, I even quoted the other guy.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> "most people" are not who you don't need to worry about.



for these others, then I'll just run while dialing 911 for a fat cop to save me.


----------



## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> keeps me warm.  But I can loose weight your just screwed



but you'll still be grandpa with a bad back.  besides, you already know that old folks can't lose weight that easily, especially with so many varieties of ymmy donuts out there.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> but you'll still be grandpa with a bad back.  besides, you already know that old folks can't lose weight that easily, especially with so many varieties of ymmy donuts out there.


we call them power rings


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> he is one of the top Goju teachers in the world.  Championships? Yawn who cares.  Combat? I have no idea and irrelevant


So what exactly is it that makes you think he could stop this guy on pcp?  His goju training or his being a cop?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> So what exactly is it that makes you think he could stop this guy on pcp?  His goju training or his being a cop?


both


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> both


Just a gut feeling?   Wishful thinking?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> Just a gut feeling?   Wishful thinking?


look of your going to,troll try to at least keep up with the thread I've been asked and answered the PCP question.


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> look of your going to,troll try to at least keep up with the thread I've been asked and answered the PCP question.


Not trolling.  Just trying to track your waffling.   So what is it about this guys goju that instills you with confidence, but you're bickering about Mma?   What's the difference, do you think?  Weren't you the guy who brought up pcp in the first place?   You're kind of all over the place tonight


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> Not trolling.  Just trying to track your waffling.   So what is it about this guys goju that instills you with confidence, but you're bickering about Mma?   What's the difference, do you think?  Weren't you the guy who brought up pcp in the first place?   You're kind of all over the place tonight


still stalking huh your a sad little man


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Incorrect again. You said:  " They may be able to KO each other quite successfully but outside the gym," --Tex3
> 
> This implies that KO's happens somewhat often or even quite often, which I replied that you're wrong, as it only happens very rarely. If you actually have fought full contact, you'd know that it's very difficult to KO someone of similar skill level. And we don't go for the KO on people significantly less experienced and we go very light on all the women, which you should know this part already.
> 
> And no videos. I don't go around recording myself in every sparring class as this would be pretty weird.




I think it's probably time you stopped trolling and looked at your posts for what they are. It may seem in your head that you are making witty little bon mots but in fact you are just trolling, if you can't come up with anything other than snide remarks you think will put people down then you are trolling, if you won't carry on an intelligent conversation but want to play what has already been called  'dick' comparison then you are trolling. If you think we are going down to your level then you definitely are trolling.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 16, 2016)

Steve said:


> Not trolling.  Just trying to track your waffling.   So what is it about this guys goju that instills you with confidence, but you're bickering about Mma?   What's the difference, do you think?  Weren't you the guy who brought up pcp in the first place?   You're kind of all over the place tonight


Usually when a guy comes on the internet to spout about how tough he is, it is a pretty safe bet, he is no match for the police. However, carry on...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> still stalking huh your a sad little man


While Martial Talk cant afford my extravagant Moderation fees, I understand they frown on this.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 16, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Usually when a guy comes on the internet to spout about how tough he is, it is a pretty safe bet, he is no match for the police. However, carry on...


It's even better in person.  How quick they change their tune when I unpin my badge from my shirt and start taking off my gun belt


----------



## drop bear (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> what's that have to do with anything we have no elephants here so



Just making up scenarios to prove a point. Like your PCP scenario. If you can't beat an elephant in a street fight it shows your martial arts is flawed.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> It's even better in person.  How quick they change their tune when I unpin my badge from my shirt and start taking off my gun belt








Maybe not what you were trying to go for.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> You pretending to eye poke someone or pretending to squeeze their testicles? Or do you actually train with real eye poking and real testicle kicking?





FriedRice said:


> By real, you mean that your school pretends to eye poke and pretend to kick at testicles right?



If you think that the only difference between a self defense martial art and a sport martial art is eye poking and groin striking then you either have a limited imagination or don't know the first thing  about self defense martial arts. Or both.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> We've had accidental KOs in the gym


It happens even in non-contact sparring. I once accidentally knocked out a black belt candidate with a spinning heel kick.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> That's why cops, Marines, Rangers, and whatever soldiers....join MMA gyms to get better at hand to hand combat.


That's hardly an argument for MMA since they also join other martial arts as well.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Just making up scenarios to prove a point. Like your PCP scenario. If you can't beat an elephant in a street fight it shows your martial arts is flawed.


except PCP is real and we deal with it all the time here so...


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> It happens even in non-contact sparring. I once accidentally knocked out a black belt candidate with a spinning heel kick.



Ouch! I've been KO'd twice, both times my own fault for not defending/attacking properly. It's not that bad, what I hate is liver shots, they make you feel really ill. We have a fighter who when sparring goes for your head a lot to make you put your hands up higher then drops you with a liver shot, it isn't even a hard shot more like a slap but oh dear, it's really not nice.

As for the military joining MMA, ours are encouraged to do martial arts as a sport, the powers that be like competitive sports like martial arts, rugby, football etc because it encourages fighting spirit. they really don't have a lot of use for hand to hand combat. Ours are encouraged to do martial arts because the commanding officers hope that the squaddies will do their fighting there and not in public, doesn't really work though as our lot love scrapping. Certain regiments are known for being scrappers, notably the Celtic ones.

Squaddies will even fight cars............


----------



## drop bear (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> If you think that the only difference between a self defense martial art and a sport martial art is eye poking and groin striking then you either have a limited imagination or don't know the first thing  about self defense martial arts. Or both.



That is the big sell. Self defence has no rules so they have some sort of advantage. 

Which they may have if they could actually fight.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> I'd still train her to fight like a fighter because it's more realistic and the highest form of Martial Arts training.


If you say so.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> If you think that the only difference between a self defense martial art and a sport martial art is eye poking and groin striking then you either have a limited imagination or don't know the first thing  about self defense martial arts. Or both.



I'm pretty sure he means that the typical argument against sport MAs is that they don't practice those "dirty techniques" thus they are not effective on "da streetz".

The reality is that if I can throw you onto your head, or choke you to death with my legs while laying on my back, then scratching you in the face or yanking your hair is literally child's play in comparison.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> except PCP is real and we deal with it all the time here so...



I have delt with people pinging off their heads. You don't have a monopoly on bad guys on drugs. 

There is not a self defence method that gives you any more advantage that anything else.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Trying to KO someone while they're trying to do the same to you, in training (SOMETIMES)....is much more real than pretending to with pretend strikes.


Who's pretending?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Double post

.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> The reality is that if I can throw you onto your head, or choke you to death with my legs while laying on my back, then scratching you in the face or yanking your hair is literally child's play in comparison.


Especially if your opponent is made out of straw.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Especially if your opponent is made out of straw.



Well that's the thing;  In sport/competitive MAs we tend to test our techniques against living opponents.

That doesn't happen in many traditional MAs. So what happens is you get pretty forms;






But when the rubber meets the road......






As you said; If your opponent is made out of straw, all that kata stuff would work out just fine. When you attempt to apply it to someone trying to punch you in the face, things start falling apart.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I have delt with people pinging off their heads. You don't have a monopoly on bad guys on drugs.
> 
> There is not a self defence method that gives you any more advantage that anything else.


Well PCP is totally different then most other drugs but Its just 1 example of many that you don't prepare for playing in the ring.  Mental health issues, other drugs, weapons,  multiple attackers,  someone really trying to kill you not just trying to "win", your own level of intoxication, environmental issues.  So again it's not the self defense method its the mind set.  If you really believe the mat is just as good as real life then your in for a rude awakening when you start tapping and the guy laughs and then doesn't stop.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Well that's the thing;  In sport/competitive MAs we tend to test our techniques against living opponents.
> 
> That doesn't happen in many traditional MAs. So what happens is you get pretty forms;
> 
> ...


i,was waiting for your kata bashing to start


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Well PCP is totally different then most other drugs but Its just 1 example of many that you don't prepare for playing in the ring.  Mental health issues, other drugs, weapons,  multiple attackers,  someone really trying to kill you not just trying to "win", your own level of intoxication, environmental issues.  So again it's not the self defense method its the mind set.  If you really believe the mat is just as good as real life then your in for a rude awakening when you start tapping and the guy laughs and then doesn't stop.



And you honestly believe that you develop that street mindset in Goju Ryu karate?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Well that's the thing;  In sport/competitive MAs we tend to test our techniques against living opponents.
> 
> That doesn't happen in many traditional MAs. So what happens is you get pretty forms;
> 
> ...


And you think those two videos are representative of all self defense martial arts? How cute. And for the  record in the second video they are in a contest therefor the were engaging in sport not self defense.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> And you honestly believe that you develop that street mindset in Goju Ryu karate?


no I developed it from being in the street


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> i,was waiting for your kata bashing to start



Except it isn't a bash, it's simply the truth. Form training really doesn't translate into fighting ability, which is why many fighting arts have done away with it completely and replaced it with more modern methods.

There's nothing essentially wrong with forms. Heck, I openly admit that I enjoy watching kata competitions since I have a weak spot for seeing well done karate kata, but I also fully recognize that doing a beautiful kata isn't going to help against someone trying to punch me in the face. 

Forms can be a great way to exercise or relieve stress, but then again so can running and doing yoga on a regular basis.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> However no one is actually comparing dicks


We could always compare who is the biggest dick.  And now back to the subject at hand..


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Except it isn't a bash, it's simply the truth. Form training really doesn't translate into fighting ability, which is why many fighting arts have done away with it completely and replaced it with more modern methods.
> 
> There's nothing essentially wrong with forms. Heck, I openly admit that I enjoy watching kata competitions since I have a weak spot for seeing well done karate kata, but I also fully recognize that doing a beautiful kata isn't going to help against someone trying to punch me in the face.
> 
> Forms can be a great way to exercise or relieve stress, but then again so can running and doing yoga on a regular basis.


it's not "truth" thats all your opinion


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> And you think those two videos are representative of all self defense martial arts? How cute.



And where did I say or imply that? My art is a self defense art. How would that video represent my art at all?



> And for the  record in the second video they are in a contest therefor the were engaging in sport not self defense.



Exactly. So if this venerated instructor can't stop some barely-trained kid from knocking him out in a relatively safe contest, how is he going to fair against someone who isn't going to stop after he's knocked him out cold?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Oh Not another member of the Church of Youtube


Who never practices what he preaches.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> it's not "truth" thats all your opinion



Has any of the people who give seminars about the hidden power of bunkai ever stepped into a ring or a cage to showcase its effectiveness?

I'm genuinely curious.



ballen0351 said:


> no I developed it from being in the street



Good! Now we're getting somewhere.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> We could always compare who is the biggest dick.  And now back to the subject at hand..



Oooo  you _are_ awful!


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> What DB and Fried are saying is that MMA style training is effective for self defense and self protection because it teaches you how to fight off trained people of various sizes.


So does just about every other martial art out there and often without weight classes.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Has any of the people who give seminars about the hidden power of bunkai ever stepped into a ring or a cage to showcase its effectiveness?


I have no idea I don't study their life history but I know for a fact they have used it in real life to,defend themselves so I don't care about pretty trophies


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> we have no elephants here so


Just the one in the room.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Which they may have if they could actually fight.


Who is 'they"?


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> So does just about every other martial art out there and often without weight classes.



Actually that's not true. Karate for example was developed to beat unskilled people, not other skilled martial artists.

That would include your art of Tae Kwon Do, since it's a Korean derivative of Japanese karate.



ballen0351 said:


> I have no idea I don't study their life history but I know for a fact they have used it in real life to,defend themselves so I don't care about pretty trophies



So that would be a "no". I can't say that surprises me.

Don't you think it's interesting that we have all these fighting experts who have never really fought anyone?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> How would that video represent my art at all?


It doesn't, just like it doesn't represent mine.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> It doesn't, just like it doesn't represent mine.



I never said it did.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Actually that's not true. Karate for example was developed to beat unskilled people, not other skilled martial artists.
> 
> That would include your art of Tae Kwon Do, since it's a Korean derivative of Japanese karate.


So do you think that we just get unskilled people into our dojang to spar against so we don't have to spar skilled martial artists?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I never said it did.


You were trying to use it as an example that martial arts that incorporate kata cannot use their martial art to defend themselves and you failed, miserably.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> So do you think that we just get unskilled people into our dojang to spar against so we don't have to spar skilled martial artists?



I'm merely repeating what scholars and a few people on this forum have stated about karate's general purpose as "civilian self defense".



RTKDCMB said:


> You were trying to use it as an example that martial arts that incorporate kata cannot use their martial art to defend themselves and you failed, miserably.



Judo incorporates kata, and I would never say that a Judoka isn't fully capable of defending themselves.

What I was saying is that kata as the main training method doesn't tend to translate well into overall fighting ability. What sets Judo apart from that particular Kung Fu style is the training methodology. Judo utilizes fairly modern training methods. Many classical MA styles do not.

BTW, TKD isn't a classical style. Heck, Judo, Bjj, and modern Japanese karate are older than TKD.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> What I was saying is that kata as the main training method doesn't tend to translate well into overall fighting ability.


Which martial arts use kata as the MAIN training method? I have only ever practiced three so I don't know.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Judo utilizes fairly modern training methods. Many classical MA styles do not.



Define 'modern training methods'. Our training differs from what was it was 20 years ago.



Hanzou said:


> BTW, TKD isn't a classical style. Heck, Judo, Bjj, and modern Japanese karate are older than TKD.



BTW, I did not mention which arts are modern and which were traditional in my comment. Also the art itself does not have to be old to be considered traditional, only the traditions have to be.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I'm merely repeating what scholars and a few people on this forum have stated about karate's general purpose as "civilian self defense".


The reason most self defense martial arts concentrate on defense against relatively unskilled attacker is because those are the ones you are most likely to encounter in civilian self defense. However they still teach defenses to many types of attacks (such as side kicks and back kicks) that unskilled people are not likely to be able to use,


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Define 'modern training methods'. Our training differs from what was it was 20 years ago.



That is an entirely different thread. No need to derail this discussion any further.



> BTW, I did not mention which arts are modern and which were traditional in my comment. Also the art itself does not have to be old to be considered traditional, only the traditions have to be.



Yeah, but the problem here is that the roots of TKD aren't traditional either, they literally come from the modernized version of Japanese karate which itself dates back to the 1920s when Funakoshi watered down traditional Okinawan karate for the Japanese masses. Even the forms come from Shotokan karate. Those that didn't were created by a group of officials after WW2.

I gotta say, that history of the Taekyon (sp?) warriors is pretty entertaining though.



RTKDCMB said:


> The reason most self defense martial arts concentrate on defense against relatively unskilled attacker is because those are the ones you are most likely to encounter in civilian self defense. However they still teach defenses to many types of attacks (such as side kicks and back kicks) that unskilled people are not likely to be able to use,



Which is a strange philosophy because there's no guarantee that you're going to mainly encounter unskilled attackers. That concept made sense back in the old times when only the wealthy got martial arts training, but in the modern world, everyone has access to martial arts training on some level.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> but in the modern world, everyone has access to martial arts training on some level.


But still the majority of people you will encounter on the street will have little or no martial arts training.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> No need to derail this discussion any further.


Derail a thread? Never.


----------



## Buka (Jan 16, 2016)

Things sometimes get heated around here. So here's a little Kumbaya to sooth.







Now, somebody kill the fricken' bird and carry on.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> But still the majority of people you will encounter on the street will have little or no martial arts training.



I simply don't believe that. In America every kid has access to wrestling, and in some areas they have access to boxing in secondary school. Beyond that, styles like boxing and basic grappling aren't very difficult to learn on your own as long as you have a partner. You take a look at those street fighting vids, and some of those kids have VERY solid striking and grappling skills.

You can also find just about every Bjj or MMA submission on YouTube nowadays. In fact YT is so comprehensive, even trained people use it for supplemental training. You combine that with some rudimentary skills and street fighting experience and you can have some problems.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> But still the majority of people you will encounter on the street will have little or no martial arts training.


Everybody thinks they know something that gives them the advantage. Even the guy that stayed home and locked it door. It gave him an advantage, didn't it?


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Usually when a guy comes on the internet to spout about how tough he is, it is a pretty safe bet, he is no match for the police. However, carry on...


I mentioned this earlier, but based on everything tez and ballen are saying, the key to self defense is being a cop.   IThey see a lot of stuff, certainly more than most.  At least I can see where they're coming from. 

  I don't completely agree, as I think being a cop is as far away from self defense as competitive MMA, just in another direction.   But I commend ballen for actually taking a position that isn't just contrary to another poster.


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> It's even better in person.  How quick they change their tune when I unpin my badge from my shirt and start taking off my gun belt


Sense when did debate on a message board become stalking?  What exactly makes this public, two way discussion stalking?  Would a profanity laced, threatening PM be more like stalking?   I've never sent ballen a profanity laced, threatening pm.  Can you say the same thing, ballen?  I haven't forgotten those PMs.  

I happen to not agree with you, and posted in response.  that's not stalking.  It's doing what people do on a message board.   arent  you a cop?  Shouldn't you know that?


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Well PCP is totally different then most other drugs but Its just 1 example of many that you don't prepare for playing in the ring.  Mental health issues, other drugs, weapons,  multiple attackers,  someone really trying to kill you not just trying to "win", your own level of intoxication, environmental issues.  So again it's not the self defense method its the mind set.  If you really believe the mat is just as good as real life then your in for a rude awakening when you start tapping and the guy laughs and then doesn't stop.


How does the typical martial artist, interested in self defense training, prepare for a guy on PCP?


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## Hanzou (Jan 16, 2016)

Steve said:


> How does the typical martial artist, interested in self defense training, prepare for a guy on PCP?



What I found interesting about that exchange is that Ballen had a problem believing that a MMA fighter could stop a guy on PCP, but had no problem believing that a traditional karate expert could stop a guy on PCP.

I'd be very interested to know exactly what aspect of traditional training makes someone more capable of handling a modern, violent situation.


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> no I developed it from being in the street


This definitely makes sense.   I've said many times that you can't really become an expert without application.   It sounds like you're saying that the training doesn't matter.   Is that what you mean?


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> But still the majority of people you will encounter on the street will have little or no martial arts training.


This is an interesting assertion.  I see where you're coming from.   But given the statistical unlikelihood that you will ever be in a self defense situation at all, wouldn't you want to prepare for a worst case scenario?  At least as far as fighting skills.


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> What I found interesting about that exchange is that Ballen had a problem believing that a MMA fighter could stop a guy on PCP, but had no problem believing that a traditional karate expert could stop a guy on PCP.
> 
> I'd be very interested to know exactly what aspect of traditional training makes someone more capable of handling a modern, violent situation.


Frankly, I don't know how pcp enter d the conversation at all.   It seems like cherry picking something that a cop runs into but is otherwise completely irrelevant to a discussion about self defense.


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## jks9199 (Jan 16, 2016)

Thread locked pending review

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