# i haven't seen a person move like scott sonnon does



## coulrophobe

i don't know much about ross or systema (besides the fact that i know they exist) and i have only seen some videos of sonnon, but i don't think that i've seen anyone move like he does.  i think the closest that i have seen is a drunken boxing guy, but it isn't a big similarity.

 there seems to be an emphasis on twisting when it comes to deflecting.  not like the standard circular motion blocks you see, but kind of like how you break a grip that a person has on your wrist, only against and for punches.

 makes me wish that there were some folks in my area that did this so i could try it out.  it looks like a riot.


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## Bigshadow

coulrophobe said:
			
		

> and i have only seen some videos of sonnon, but i don't think that i've seen anyone move like he does.


 I personally know a few people that move like him. However they are not Systema. I do like Scott Sonnon's videos and books. I think he offers some great exercises for flexibility and mobility which are important, not only to our art but I think to Systema and some others. He has excellent ground work (movement exercises) too!

   Sorry to jump into the Systema forum, but I do like much of the material produced by Scott Sonnon.


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## Brad S.

The more you see of Russian Martial Art the more you will realize that he is but one of many, actually quite common.

 I personally have never seen anyone move like Vladimir Vasiliev.  (Just one example: try hanging from your chin alone from a pull-up bar and waving the rest of your body).


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## coulrophobe

i haven't seen much of systema, but i'm definately gonna check it out.  it's just crazy to me how he just shrugs off punches.  i'm not seeing any schools in my area, so i'm gonna have to check out a seminar if they ever make it out my way.


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## MA-Caver

Umm,... any vids??


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## rutherford

http://www.rmax.tv/sonnon.html


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## Cyber Ninja

I just watched one of Mr. Sonnon's video clips on his site. Nice work, but I think Vladimir Vasiliev has easier flow of motion. Just my opinion...


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## Kenpodoc

If you like Mr. Sonnon you'll love Vladamir Vasiliev or one of his students. 

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc

Here's a link to a video of Martin Wheeler.

http://homepage.mac.com/craig_railsback/Systema/iMovieTheater12.html

Jeff


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## coulrophobe

i haven't seen any vids of Vladimir Vasiliev, but the above one is pretty good.  in the vids i have seen, the people are not going as fast as they could, are there any vids of systema folks going against someone throwing full speed attacks?


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## Cyber Ninja

coulrophobe said:
			
		

> i haven't seen any vids of Vladimir Vasiliev, but the above one is pretty good. in the vids i have seen, the people are not going as fast as they could, are there any vids of systema folks going against someone throwing full speed attacks?


 
Check out this thread started by Paul Genge. Cool stuff...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25540


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## Loki

Scott Sonnon is nothing compared to this guy! I have never seen anyone move like Nitai Dean.

 Compare the meager Sonnon (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/images/wagefun.mpeg) with the superior Dean (http://www.xpent.com/movie.html).


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## Bigshadow

Loki said:
			
		

> Scott Sonnon is nothing compared to this guy! I have never seen anyone move like Nitai Dean.
> 
> Compare the meager Sonnon (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/images/wagefun.mpeg) with the superior Dean (http://www.xpent.com/movie.html).


 Surely you jest!


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## Old Tiger

Well you better open both eyes! Because between those two videos Sonnen wins hands down in demonstration of body flow and techniques. Wow, what a thread. Scott obviously doesn't have too many supporters here but it is obvious that the systema folks have an ax to grind. Scott has a wealth of material available to help any athlete. Check it out with an open mind.


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## NYCRonin

OLD TIGER
  Hmmm...how to state this correctly?
THIS is basically a Systema forum....and many of us are aware of SS methods and although they are interesting often to this community - they are not exactly what we chose to 'do'.
  I would imagine that there would be much the same reaction if SS was substituted for VV in a thread on a R-MAX or ROSS forum or site. It is NOT that the Systema group is against Scot...far from it - in fact, over the last few years, I have found myself speaking out on Scot's behalf when he was under seige on a few forums I frequent. IF 'we' have an 'ax to grind' -- it is more in support of exactly what we 'do' - -and many have seen Scot's work on tapes...and  regard him well. I myself own a few of his tapes - and would recommend them to ANY open, seeking martial artist. I also was gifted with a club-bell by Scot himself -- and it is a treasured part of my equipment regimen. Search the name 'Shinobi22' here to read my comments about an old 'attack' about SS.

NOW - of course, as we are all human - not all will 'like' everyone. Thats just the human condition. But in the overall RMA community - SS will always be regarded as an early pioneer of bringing RMA worth to light in N. America. 

Pleae do not view support for the method we have chosen as being any form of denigration of Mr. Sonnons worth. As one of the senior certified instructors of Systema -- I can state that in many personal discussions with my peers, when his name comes up - it is well regarded for what he offers, often. More than a few own a few of his offerings....we see some congruency to 'what we do' in his work - and see the differences also. When I taught Systema publicly, there were a few very congruent exercises I learned from his work that I passed along to my students - because they fit the Systema dynamic very nicely...I would imagine that other instructors of certain arts would find the same value  -- if they looked into it. Of course, I would recommend Vladimirs work MUCH more -- I  personally find much more worth in Vlads stuff than SS - exactly the same as a member of ROSS might say, conversly; about this subject.

Would I be wrong if I recommended the 'best of the best' that I personally trained with? Of course not! Still, I would mention SS and his work to those inclined to experience his work first....but to me, Vlad is the one I COSE to study with -  MY CHOICE - and one I have not regretted....I have publicly stated often, I will be Sytemist for the rest of my time in life. Still, I can see some worth to me in SS offerings - and NONE in Systema have ever called me foolish for this statement..not my students, not my peers and surely not Vladimir himself -- for in almost now 42 years of martial study - he has PROVEN himself to be the most open and supportive teacher and guide to life and things martial - that I have EVER been blessed to study with as a teacher and in so doing - find a friend for life. I could 'quit' Systema tomorrow - and still know, Vlad would be my friend for life- we promissed each other such connection...years ago. As my body grows older, as the cumulative injuries mount up (from being involved in an 'action profession') - I simply cannot move like I once did. Oh, I try as hard as I can with some of the very challenging exercises - but I admit - the sprit is willing...but the body? Is busted forever. Many a lesser guide would not regard my efforts as highly as Vlad does....many. Somehow, he knows when I am 'fronting' and in such deep pain...trying to keep up. He not only accepts what I have had to do in life to protect and serve - he finds a twist for my limitations that gives my soon to be 51 year old body new life and unique understanding and movement. Sometimes, under his guidance - I am truly 25 again! And wind up 'moving' better than his younger more healthy affilates - basically, he is to me...that damn special and unique.

THIS is a section about Systema specifically...specifically.

I personally have no 'ax to grind' about the work of S. Sonnon -- but it is NOT Systema....and I  kinda feel there was not any attack, but more 'support' for our teacher V. Vasilieve - and thats also kinda normal..would you not agree?

I have friends very highly ranked in the Bujinkan...and the differences between the two are legion. Still, they find a certain understanding from Systema exercises - and incorporate some that is congruent to their school of study. Is this not what seekers of knowledge do?

In closing, Although the original poster may never have seen anyone move like Scot - maybe they have not seen the movement of Systema? So, this one posts here - But there is a ROSS section in this forum also. More properly, thats really where that statement might have found more support from subsequent posters.

ROSS/R-Max people are inclined to thier choices - Systema people are also entitled to this personal choice. I just did a quick review of the preceeding posts - and really did not sense any dislike for SS - but more support for VV - which would be normal for a section earmarked for Systema....yes?

IF SS = Ross/R-Max
And VV = Systema
AND BOTH are considered iconic...then one cannot compare a student of either to the Big Dog....thats kinda unfair.

AND FURTHER..to all reading...for I truly wish you to find what your seeking --
IF you see more in ROSS - then  study ROSS!
See more of value to you in Systema - then study Systema!

Neither art is exactly for 'everyone' - yet BOTH thrive by the efforts of those that feel they are better suited for one or the other - yet, an open mind - learns wherever something touches them deeply..names, styles - images and the damn 'clip medium' (that deliveres nothing but a shallow overview of anything 'seen yet not experienced personally in real time) be damned!

Bob Hubbard is NOT Systema -- he has HIS chosen method. Yet he was an open enough seeker to even create a section for ALL RMA on his site here - out of both professionalism as a webmaster for a martial forum - and one I have found to have an insatiable thrist for all martial knowledge.

A real warrior wayist - NEVER will be able to fill his/her cup to the brim!
It just doesnt happen - it is NOT 'The Way'!

A true open mind may have a certain vehicle of choice - if I could afford any automobile - I would like to own a nicely loaded mustang convertable - but as I drove that car down the marital road - I would make many way side stops to tast the many tastes of the martial offerings along The Way. So I chose (finally - after more than 35 years  - back then - of seeking the vehicle to drive) Systema - -but I am fully understood and encouraged by my teachers Vasilieve and Ryabco - to drink from all the sweet and sour along the Way.

Oh no, Old Tiger - there is no ax to grind 'against' Scot in the mature Systema community. Some may rub up against him - and becomke even sharper by the experience...others, might find a lil bit of unexperienced polish from his work though...and that can be found in many methods - not all martial - please do not mistake support for a choice to drive a mustang for any form of dislike for a barracuda, we make our choices suited to ourselves.

In closing - I have found few who might not like SS - but even they do regard some of his work as thought provoking...and I would guess, that thats enough even for Mr. Sonnann to find in any adhearent that has chosen a path other than the one he expouses.

Too many words -- saying too little.

Thats seems to often be my 'style', at times.

BUT-- "Thats my story..and I am stickin to it"!

Overall, anyone who has ever clenced a fist or hit open handed in self protection, protection of others...or even for personal growth and understanding - we ALL are of the same community - just some like the neighborhood and choose to 'live' elsewhere'...but we all are of the same wayist seeking mindset.
What we eventually find, is up to the individual.
That is true in the martial way - and overall life itself.

Goodnight all..
Be safe,
live well,
be happy,
and attempt to leave this life a better place because 'you' were ever born.

Namaste!
Rob Green
NYC
PS - please excuse any typos - I am really too tired to edit this long post properly, thanx. :asian:


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## jellyman

I'd say Sonnon's pretty good, but I've seen better (in my opinion). Anyway, the most important thing is, does his material work for you? If it does, then nothing else really matters from your pov.

Not all the best instructors are great fighters, and vice versa.

For myself, I value Vlad's motivational skills and insight over his wizardry, but not everyone may like the approach as much as I do.


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## arnisador

NYCRonin said:
			
		

> THIS is basically a Systema forum...


Or at least, a RMA forum most heavily populated by Systema players. As someone who reads it in order to learn some things about an art I don't study, mostly from curiousity and a desire to be well-rounded in my general knowledge of various arts, discussions of the differences between the Russian arts is very useful to me!

Very nice post, BTW.


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## Old Tiger

NYC Ronin: I think we are on the same page. But first of all the forum says 'Russian Martial Arts' and I figured that was open to all practitioners and those interested in Russian Martial Arts.  I am an instructor in Sombo and I have never had any personal experience with Systema and know very little about it, definitely not enough to make any judgements. I am more familiar with SS and his work. Like you I feel all should be open minded and I do feel that all are entitled to their opinion and preference. I guess it hit me wrong when Loki wrote "the meager SS and the superior..." That seems to be a judgement but I suppose it is simply his stated opinion. Personally I feel all arts have something to offer and that is the beauty of sombo that we take what is functional and absorb it. I would like to see (and I think the communication between the ASA and the USSA is an example) all forms of Russian Martial Arts cooperate and encourage each other. We do not want to become like so many arts that as they grew more popular they fractionalized and descended into feuding. I am the same age you are, have probably seen a lot of the same BS in the 25+ years that I have been in martial art. I too am struggling with a body dealing with injuries and health issues and I am happy to be able to teach and share what I have learned and what I continue to learn.  I encourage my students to cross train and compete and cross compete as part of their learning experience. I am glad you feel strongly about your art as do I. Its nice to see others who have similar values. So... no harm no foul


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## Mark Jakabcsin

Old Tiger said:
			
		

> I guess it hit me wrong when Loki wrote "the meager SS and the superior..." That seems to be a judgement but I suppose it is simply his stated opinion.



Boyd,
The problem with your assumption is that Loki is a Systema practioner. He is not. See the the last 2 pages of the thread titled 'the system' on this forum. Basically you jumped to a conclusion about how ALL Systema practioners feel about SS based on the comments of someone that doesn't even practice the art. As one of my old training NCO's would say, Shame, Shame, Shame.  

Of course anyone that has posted for a long period of time has made similar or worse mistakes, in my case many times. 

Take care,

Mark J.


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## RachelK

> Of course anyone that has posted for a long period of time has made similar or worse mistakes, in my case many times.


Yep, me too, although I haven't been posting here a long time, but long enough to have jumped to these conclusions. But in the case of Loki's statement about "the meager SS and the superior Nitai Dean...", it was clearly a joke. If you watch the clip in that post, it's just an ordinary guy turning somersaults...
-Rachel


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## Old Tiger

Ok, As I know nothing of Loki or "Nitai Dean" I will chalk it up to an honest mistake and gracefully bow out of the picture.  If this forum is in fact acknowledged to be a 'systema' forum the moderators should list it as such on the index. I wish all of you the best in your training and search for truth in combat.


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## Loki

I seem to have caused a bit of chaos here so I'll clarify: 

 The Nitai Dean movie is a joke. I saw the post on SS and gave it a look, saw the rolling clip and didn't understand what I was watching. Looking at it from a completely ignorant POV, it looks like a grown man rolling on the grass. I decided to further this "ignorance is bliss" approach and asked Nitai to roll around on the grass. Some catchy techno music and voila! a parody.

  I admit to not having the knowledge to appreciate SS' work, and mean no offense to him or any fans. It was purely for laughs.

 It is true that I do not practice Systema. One need only look at my art and rank section above any post I wrote.


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## SonnyPuzikas

IMO we should clear some things up. What Scott Sonnon does is called Rmax- not ROSS. Scott is no longer associated with that organization. Rmax is not a Russian martial art in Sonnons own words. While many would argue and say that large percentage of what Scott does is clearly methods, principles, movements and techniques borrowed (and often modified) from various RMA's, and observing SS work such statements would be hard to argue with, Scott states that rmax is not an RMA and not an MA for that matter.


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## arnisador

SonnyPuzikas said:
			
		

> Scott states that rmax is not an RMA and not an MA for that matter.


Not a martial? Like what Bruce Lee said about Jeet Kune Do, or in some other sense, I wonder?


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## rutherford

Similar.  IIRC, Scott's of the belief that RMAX philosophy, conditioning, training, drills etc are all of valuable benefit to all Martial Arts.

Something of that nature.


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## Bigshadow

rutherford said:
			
		

> Similar. IIRC, Scott's of the belief that RMAX philosophy, conditioning, training, drills etc are all of valuable benefit to all Martial Arts.
> 
> Something of that nature.


 I agree! That was the way I interpreted his work. I know that his material is very useful for us. I think his stuff is applicable to many martial art styles, because it focuses on movement.  I use his material myself.


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## NYCRonin

First, I would like to thank Sonny for clearing up any confusion of what Ss presently offers...I knew what he was kind enough to write, and was only attempting to outline all of 'what' SS is overall known for in N. America. R-Max is now Scots chosen voice - and Sonny is very correct in his post.

Old Tiger, once again - I amy not have made myself clear enough. Overall, if one was to work through the myriad threads in this 'RMA' site - one would find mostly Sytema posters - BUT - belive me here, I (as the Mod of this lil section of Martial Talk) would heartfully WELCOME threads started by SAMBO, ROSS, Kadoshnikov, Buza (and more RMA) students..but we dont seem to get much of that here - so as I mentioned -- THIS is 'basically' A Systema section - not by title nor design - but more by the overall number of threads and responses here, mostly form Systemans.

BUT ALL RMA ARE VERY WELCOME!

ALL students of things martial are welcome here - RMA or not!

Sure, there are many sections to the Martial Talk site -- but I would hope that real seekers of open mind see beyond labels and styles..and if they wish to post here about things of interest, general to the martial community - or things specific to the methods known as RMA - please do so!

Bob Hubbard has give us this space to be RMA - but it really is open to all of the way.

Old Tiger, my name is Rob. And I extend you an open invite to post about Sambo - or whatever martial subject or thoughts you wish to share.

Though the numbers in this section are often of Systema - I assure you, you will find the majority open to ideas and expressions of personal training, experience and free thought. This is a RMA section - but the 'R' is only a third of the title- the 'MA' is the greater part of all of this, sir.

Pull up a chair, the Russian Standard vodka is always cold here - and I ocassionally foot the bill for the excellent Brooklyn pizza! Sit down, grab a slice of the Sicilian square pie - and get a chilled glass.....I pour the first round.

Nastrovia!


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## arnisador

I would enjoy hearing more about Sambo!


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## Old Tiger

Rob,
Thank you very much for the invite and the clarification. I realize that this forum is primarly Systema by default and I understand that. I will be happy to try to post some things about Sombo and hopefully other Russian MA will become active abuot their styles as well. I'm sure we can all learn from each other. 

Arnisador:
There are a lot of good historical articles about sombo on the internet. I could post some links if you like. Weren't you at the recent Martialtalk meet and greet in Buffalo?  I thought I met you there when I did the mini seminar on groundfighting.  Please tell me I am not getting senile!


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## arnisador

Yes, we've met in Buffalo, but it wasn't at the Meet & Greet! I forget when exactly it was.

I'm studying BJJ and am especially interested in what's different about Sambo. I know that Sambo emphasizes ankle locks that can be good when caught in the guard, for example!


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## Old Tiger

Sombo is famous for its leglocks. They have also made what they feel are improvements in a lot of traditional throws. That point is arguable at best among Judoka and Sombist but we get along well. Many people associate Sombo as "Jacket Wreslting" which it is but it is a well balanced system of throws, takedowns, groundfighting (including submissions, hooks, chokes, strangles, and positional control) and in Combat sombo striking of all kinds, dirty fighting and weapons are taught. I was always taught that the emphasis in Sombo (also spelled Sambo and Cambo) is how quickly you can destroy your opponent. It has an interesting history drawn from many martial arts and a military influence. I like it because it shamelessly adopts any technique that it finds to be practical and functional in combat.  There is a lot more to leglocks than ankle locks and heel hooks. We like leglocks because generally you are able to submit or seriously injure your opponent from these positions and they are unable to hit, bite, strike or kick you as you do. Hope that whets your appetite!
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/statyi/sambo.html
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/ruseng.html
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/sambo.html


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## arnisador

Yes! Sometime when I'm in Buffalo I'll try to corner you for more info.!


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## NYCRonin

Styles and names mean nothing to the open hearted seekr of truth!\

Its a blessing..and sometimes...a curse.

Any warrior wayist only wishes to protect, serve and survive. This IS The Way.

Sambo, Systema - -lol - ro-shambo~ (for the South Park fans)  -  blade, bullet or fist - we go home safely and live to fight another day. Thats the martial way.

All that walk this way - are our community.

I wish all peace and safely home.


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## Old Tiger

NYCRonin said:
			
		

> Styles and names mean nothing to the open hearted seekr of truth!\
> 
> Its a blessing..and sometimes...a curse.
> 
> Any warrior wayist only wishes to protect, serve and survive. This IS The Way.
> 
> Sambo, Systema - -lol - ro-shambo~ (for the South Park fans)  -  blade, bullet or fist - we go home safely and live to fight another day. Thats the martial way.
> 
> All that walk this way - are our community.
> 
> I wish all peace and safely home.




*Agreed*


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## NYCRonin

And in your agreement, sir - - I would wish you to continue to post freely.
Post about Sambo - post about your life experinces - -that which makes us the same is far lesser than our seperations, da?

ALL RMA has a home here - in M. Talk.
If not? Why would I be here in the first place?

Anybody here do Siberian Loach?

Or K-Sys?

Or Russia whateva?
Just speak freely - but speak for yourself! You will find a very open forum here!


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## Flying Crane

coulrophobe said:
			
		

> i haven't seen much of systema, but i'm definately gonna check it out. it's just crazy to me how he just shrugs off punches. i'm not seeing any schools in my area, so i'm gonna have to check out a seminar if they ever make it out my way.


Some of the groundwork in the FLOW videos have a lot of similarity to Capoeira.  Capoeira doesn't like to put body parts on the ground, meaning we always have a hand or foot or the head on the ground (unless we are doing an aerial of some sort), but the essential flow is very similar.  Saw some things that looked identical, actually.


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## Old Tiger

NYCRonin said:
			
		

> And in your agreement, sir - - I would wish you to continue to post freely.
> Post about Sambo - post about your life experinces - -that which makes us the same is far lesser than our seperations, da?
> 
> ALL RMA has a home here - in M. Talk.




Hi Rob, sorry to have been away so long. I just got out of the hospital after five days and am still pretty weak and full of pain meds. 
Here is an announcement from Steve Koepfer that may interest some on the forum.  Also, this new 'freestyle' sombo that is becoming popular should be a good thing for the art as it allow a wider range of techniques in competition.
Here is Steve's message:
Hi all,
*
The American Sambo Association and Black Mark Productions *are proud to announce that February 4th, 2006 marks the return of Freestyle Sambo to the Battle of Brooklyn. www.battleofbrooklyn.com*
After the great success of the last Battle of Brooklyn, we look forward to a full card of Muay Thai, San Da, and Freestyle Sambo fights on February 4th!
*
We will be holding 4 man tournaments in at least 2 different weight classes at this event as well as some single matches if possible. If you or one of your fighters are interested in fighting in this show, visit http://www.battleofbrooklyn.com/fightapp.asp*and fill out the fighter application. WE WILL NOT PROCESS ANY FIGHTER WHO DOES NOT FILL OUT THIS APPLICATION COMPLETELY. If you have already filled out an application, simply e-mail me to confirm that I have it and note your interest in fighting.
*
Rules are available on the website as well.* Please feel free to write with any questions you may have.
*
Sincerely,
*
Stephen R Koepfer
Matchmaker, Battle of Brooklyn Tournament Series
President, American Sambo Association
Head Coach, New York Combat Sambo
(718) 728-8054
e-mail: americansamboassociation@att.net
e-mail: sambomatchmaker@battleofbrooklyn.com
www.americansamboassociation.com
www.worldwidegrappling.com
www.kidskickingcancer.net
www.battleofbrooklyn.com


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## arnisador

Hope you're feeling better *Old Tiger*!


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## NYCRonin

Old Tiger -- I also wish you well....and am also (too lightly) associated with 'Sambo Steve'. He seems so well commited to his group and his art - and when Vlad did some FightHouse seminars a coupla years ago, I was HONORED to find my training partner to often be Steve's instructor!

He was not that much older than I -- but he had a seeking mind, a sensitive nervous system - and was 'very strong in movement'. He returned to Russia, and I am a better Systeman because of training and sharing all too briefly with him.

I have yet to meet Steve -- I have  promise to keep to him and his training group, and he is as patient as reflects the Russian people.

Old Tiger -- I feel you would also have liked the 'old' "Russian Bear" that is Steves guide in Sambo.

The days you mentioned for the Battle in Brooklyn - -might be days I can attend! I thank you for the heads up...maybe I can meet Steve there at last.

Steve. I knew his teacher in training in Sytema -- and I have a feeling that the apple did not fall far from the tree!

As far as time between repies goes - I have learned patience also. Thanx for the reply.

Bolshoi Spaciba, moy druk.


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