# Martial Arts are Witchcraft, just ask this guy!



## Marnetmar (Jun 15, 2014)

WE ARE ALL INFIDELS!



> *MARTIAL ARTS - ROOTED IN THE OCCULT*
> 
> The Martial Arts are more than just a method of self-defense or a system of health exercises. They actually involve a life philosophy derived from eastern religions. The testimonies of Karatekas a devout practitioner of karate or other forms of martial arts do not hide the fact that the martial arts are more than just a sport."Karatedo another form of karate is an art and I teach it as a way of being, a way of life, as a method of developing one's self, and not as a sport," states one teacher. Karate is not a fighting sport. This was completely misconstrued by people of this country where it was taken and turned into a sport.
> There are many conflicting theories regarding the origin of the martial arts. The account stated here is a widely accepted survey that traces the general history of the martial arts and goes back too the dawn of civilization in India. Three millennia ago in China, the arts were developed even more extensively. By the establishment of the Feudal States in 770 B.C., Kung fu was widely practiced.
> ...



Does anyone else find this insanely offensive?


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## Gnarlie (Jun 15, 2014)

No, because it's utter nonsense. 

Gnarlie


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## qianfeng (Jun 15, 2014)

LOL yi Ching &#26131;&#32463;  is based on zen and martial arts! Lol. Of course a philosophical book made before Buddhism's arrival in China is based on zen how could I have not thought of that. And is it saying anything not Christian is a cult? That seems rather stupid. And when did Lao Zi become a sage?

are you sure this is a legit website and not a troll?


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2014)




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## Dirty Dog (Jun 15, 2014)

> *Some of the more heavily possessed individuals have also become very adept at Mind control, Telepathy, Telekinetic, Mind reading, Astral projection and Soul travel under the leadership of demonic guides.*



WTF??? I've been involved in the arts since about 1968, and I have yet to learn *any* of this! I must have been training under McDemons!!!!


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## Marnetmar (Jun 15, 2014)

^:roflmao:


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> WTF??? I've been involved in the arts since about 1968, and I have yet to learn *any* of this! I must have been training under McDemons!!!!



Having the supers powers would be a legitimate trade off. To be honest.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 15, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> *Spirits of Murder, Hatred, Pride, Bitterness, Depression, Resentment,  Fear, Violence, Lust for Power, Lust for (green, brown or black) Belts,  Sexual Lust, Fighting, Rage, Destruction, Suicide, Sadism and Masochism  are some of the spirits commonly found in those who have trained in  Martial Arts. Some of the more heavily possessed individuals have also  become very adept at Mind control, Telepathy, Telekinetic, Mind reading,  Astral projection and Soul travel under the leadership of demonic  guides.*



I think somebody is possessed by the spirit of drugs.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 15, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Having the supers powers would be a legitimate trade off. To be honest.



Absolutely!
I told my wife a long time ago that having cancer would be worth it, if I could get some spider powers from all the radiation...


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## Rokuta (Jun 15, 2014)

Okay, and what about European martial arts? We had complete systems of unarmed combat, sword, knife, rapier, staff weapon, wrestling and boxing. These also involve sensing your opponent's intentions, reaction times, strength, even sometimes meditation. Will he demonize them next? Silly man.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 15, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> I think somebody is possessed by the spirit of drugs.




possibly but they must have better drugs the LSD in the 60's.


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## MAist25 (Jun 15, 2014)

I don't know guys, I think he may be onto something...


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 15, 2014)

Rokuta said:


> Okay, and what about European martial arts? We had complete systems of unarmed combat, sword, knife, rapier, staff weapon, wrestling and boxing. These also involve sensing your opponent's intentions, reaction times, strength, even sometimes meditation. Will he demonize them next? Silly man.



WHAT, you said sensing your opponent's intentions . But surly  that is whichcraft...................LOL


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## MartialMellow (Jun 15, 2014)

Who wrote the article?


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## geezer (Jun 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> WTF??? I've been involved in the arts since about 1968, and I have yet to learn *any* of this! I must have been training under McDemons!!!!



I'm with you, Dirty Dog. I feel totally ripped off. I've been doing this stuff for decades and I don't have one iota of demonic powers or anything. Plus, shouldn't Satan's minions be _rich_ or something? Or at least scary and imposing?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 15, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> WE ARE ALL INFIDELS!
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone else find this insanely offensive?


Sounds about right to me. But I don't think it is a bad thing.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 15, 2014)

qianfeng said:


> are you sure this is a legit website and not a troll?



You have to realize that for the sort of people who write this sort of essay...

Any religion other than (their own particular version of) Christianity is demon worship.

Playing D&D involves witchcraft and demon worship.

Harry Potter novels promote Satanism.

Meditation can lead to demonic possession.

Yoga leads to demonic possession.

Rock music is a tool of Satan.

It's not surprising that martial arts make the list.

It's very sad, but there is a segment of the population that is raised to believe all this.  They honestly go through life seeing demons around every corner.  It's not trolling - it's the way they see reality.

It seems a very sad way to live one's life, but maybe they would feel sorry for me the same way I feel sorry for them.


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## qianfeng (Jun 16, 2014)

personally i wouldn't mind being * "very adept at Mind control, Telepathy, Telekinetic, Mind reading, Astral projection and Soul travel" *


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 16, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You have to realize that for the sort of people who write this sort of essay...
> 
> Any religion other than (their own particular version of) Christianity is demon worship.
> 
> ...


I listen to Christian radio on the grave shift, and that is when they pull out all the stops. LOL But anyways, the last show I listened too was about trying to eliminate luck from your life: Don't say or wish good luck; don't knock on wood; don't even think about it!!! LOL Luck is evil


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## wingchun100 (Jun 16, 2014)

I remember reading an article in INSIDE KUNG FU years ago where a woman pulled her son out of karate because it teaches us to worship "the God within."


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2014)

We had a woman who told us she didn't want her son to bow to the flags because "that's idol worship". I explained that it was a coutesy. A sign of respect. Akin to shaking hands or saluting the flag in a parade. And that such respect is required. She didn't bring him back. 
I feel sorry for the kid.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 16, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> We had a woman who told us she didn't want her son to bow to the flags because "that's idol worship". I explained that it was a coutesy. A sign of respect. Akin to shaking hands or saluting the flag in a parade. And that such respect is required. She didn't bring him back.
> I feel sorry for the kid.




I understand that is a belief of the Jehovah's Witnesses, along with not serving the the military of their country, nor accepting blood transfusions.

I also understand that Zen is a variation of Buddhism, and that it was incorporated into the study of some of the martial arts.  Aikidoists that I have seen always  bow to the picture of their founder before and at the close of class; which might be viewed as more than a simple custom in many people's eyes.

Understand that most if not all major religions are exclusive.  That is, they do not accept any the practice of any other religion as possibly co-existent with their own.  Further, they understand many practices of other religions are in violation of their own beliefs.

In the Christianity of the Bible, one must follow the teachings of the Bible.  There is no other belief system that can provide salvation.  Anything that is not of God is necessarily of Satan.  In Christianity, and many other religions it seems, it can be no other way.  With that in mind, go back and read Tony Dismukes post above.  Agree or disagree, it may at least provide some insight.

The post given by the OP, looks very close to some of the same things in Larson's New Book of Cults, reference martial arts.  FWIW, I don't personally agree that a MA is a cult just because it is an MA.  Some MA may be, but it doesn't mean all are.  Back in the mid-60s, Jhoon Goo Rhee was a member of the Unification (Moonie) Church, which is generally considered a cult.  He in no way tried to proselytize his students, in fact was quite reluctant to do so if asked.  He was a very excellent teacher of TKD, but not a proselytizer of his religion.  What he is or isn't now I don't know.

My GM in the Hapkido I studied was a Christian, specifically a Baptist.  He was an incredible teacher of Hapkido.  Religion never came into his teaching, even remotely, other than a time or two when he and I were doing something not related to either Hapkido or religion, he might break into a hymn.  We were expected to bow to the flag and to the dojang on entering.  It was a sign of respect on the same order as a salute or handshake.  Nothing religious about it.  We would bow to the teacher and other students at appropriate times, again like a salute or handshake.  If it had been otherwise, I would not have done it.  I suspect many people here at MT would feel the same.

I guess my point is to say I don't agree all MA are religious cults.  Larson and others seem to believe so.  That is their prerogative.  I don't happen to believe as they do, and I suspect they are reading things into what they may have seen or heard, but without real understanding.  And to answer the OP, no, I am not put off in any way.  There are many people who are ignorant about many things.  Mostly their beliefs don't affect me, so why take it personally.

EDIT:  I meant to add that your title is rather sensationalist.  There is no mention of witchcraft in what you quoted.


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## crushing (Jun 16, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> I listen to Christian radio on the grave shift, and that is when they pull out all the stops. LOL But anyways, the last show I listened too was about trying to eliminate luck from your life: Don't say or wish good luck; don't knock on wood; don't even think about it!!! LOL Luck is evil



It's not luck or evil if you're using Jody Rogers' 3 Fold Miracle Blessing Oil.


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## Buka (Jun 16, 2014)

Can't we all just sidekick for Jesus? Or head butt for Buddah? I mean, heck, I don't think they'd mind.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 16, 2014)

i must be seriously possessed then judging by that OP cos i get into a cage once week for a proper rumble  

McDemons united  

by the way is that OP for real ????? cos i've never heard such an amount of total BS spouted in one set of paragraphs - ever   gotta be a troll post surely.............


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## MartialMellow (Jun 16, 2014)

There are some Christians who think martial arts are bad because of the zen, TM, or other Eastern religions, but there are many, including myself, who participate without the zen, etc.  I am just a beginner, but I have met black belts who are Christian.  I am not sure where the author is coming from.:idunno:


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 16, 2014)

drop bear said:


>



Me might not have tapped but he did get nailed.


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## crushing (Jun 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


>





At first I read it as 'Zeus didn't Tap' and wondered why they had a sword for the T rather than lightning.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 17, 2014)

thought the point on the gloves was spot on - jesus didn't tap - the ones doing the tapping were the ones putting the nails in..........


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## skribs (Jun 17, 2014)

This isn't surprising.  I've seen and heard a bit against martial arts over the years from a few sources...

1) People who believe that grand masters are somehow ascended above normal human beings.  Typically when I hear things like "any technique a grandmaster would use in self defense would kill the other person, so they hire body guards to defend them instead" I roll my eyes.  It's not as bad as this, but it does promote mysticism.

2) People who do not understand that bowing in Eastern cultures is a sign of _respect_, not a sign of worship.  Bowing to a flag or instructor in an Asian martial art is a sign of respect, you are not breaking any Commandments by doing so.

3) A lot of martial arts are not just a combat sport, but are rooted in culture.  Many TMAs have meditation and philosophies built on Eastern religions, some instructors ingrain those bits of culture into their classes more than others.  I think this is the one that really goes back to Tony's post up above:  it's different, and therefore "evil".

4) Movies don't help.  Movies with wirework, named techniques that have mystical properties, etc. etc. do not help this stigma (and I don't watch them).

I mean, don't get me wrong, this guy is nuts.  But there are a lot of people who attribute mystical qualities to martial arts because of what they've heard and seen over the years.


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## donald1 (Jun 17, 2014)

I wish practicing kata or bunkai would lead to superpowers or perfection but so far the closest thing to perfect is just extra training and effort 

Then I guess to this guy pressure points(specifically the miscellaneous points)  and other training of the sort are the demons work at hand


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## Balrog (Jun 17, 2014)

Well, I thought everyone knew that we practice black magic in our schools.

The Magician's Network Self-Defense System: The Art of Destruction


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 18, 2014)

Balrog said:


> Well, I thought everyone knew that we practice black magic in our schools.
> 
> The Magician's Network Self-Defense System: The Art of Destruction



Wow, at first I couldn't decide whether "Master Bristol" was a comic book writer pitching script ideas or an exceptionally deluded nutjob. Then I read more and realized that he has to be a satirist intent on mocking crazypants martial arts websites the way Master Ken mocks pompous McDojo owners.

The sad thing is that some folks are crazy enough that the satire barely goes far enough to distinguish itself from its target.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 18, 2014)

Balrog said:


> Well, I thought everyone knew that we practice black magic in our schools.
> 
> The Magician's Network Self-Defense System: The Art of Destruction



Although palming of a weapon may have som merit (if it does not land you in jail) I am not convinced of the deadly banana approach.The levitation reminds me of Yogic flying.

Permanent Peace: What is Yogic Flying?


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 18, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Wow, at first I couldn't decide whether "Master Bristol" was a comic book writer pitching script ideas or an exceptionally deluded nutjob. Then I read more and realized that he has to be a satirist intent on mocking crazypants martial arts websites the way Master Ken mocks pompous McDojo owners.
> 
> The sad thing is that some folks are crazy enough that the satire barely goes far enough to distinguish itself from its target.



May the bird of paradise fly up you nose and the fleas of a thousand camels inhabit your clothing.  I was so looking forward to studying with this great grand master.  And now you have burst my bubble.

Shame on you sir!

:boing1: :boing1: :boing1:


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## blackxpress (Jun 18, 2014)

Sad. Even sadder is that there are a lot of American Christians who think this way. I started training in a small town in the North Georgia mountains and we dealt with this kind of crap on a regular basis. The fundamentalists in our community were worried that we were teaching kids some kind of alternative spirituality. We were not of course. The truth is there is a Zen Buddhist and Taoist influence in some of the Asian martial arts but that doesn't make them demonic. Some of the old masters thought of kata as a form of Zen meditation but so what? I've studied Zen but that doesn't make me a devil worshipper. In fact, I am a Presbyterian pastor and a very committed Christian. We fear that which we fail to understand. If Zen teaches me how to find a deeper level of harmony with my natural surroundings I don't see how that's a bad thing. It doesn't keep me from loving Jesus. Just to be clear I am not a Zen practitioner and, as of right now, I am a student of Kyokushin karate which is more about fighting than anything spiritual. If there is anything cult like about Kyokushin it is the absolute devotion of its practitioners to the art itself. Osu!


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

blackxpress said:


> Sad. Even sadder is that there are a lot of American Christians who think this way. I started training in a small town in the North Georgia mountains and we dealt with this kind of crap on a regular basis. The fundamentalists in our community were worried that we were teaching kids some kind of alternative spirituality. We were not of course. The truth is there is a Zen Buddhist and Taoist influence in some of the Asian martial arts but that doesn't make them demonic. Some of the old masters thought of kata as a form of Zen meditation but so what? I've studied Zen but that doesn't make me a devil worshipper. In fact, I am a Presbyterian pastor and a very committed Christian. We fear that which we fail to understand. If Zen teaches me how to find a deeper level of harmony with my natural surroundings I don't see how that's a bad thing. It doesn't keep me from loving Jesus. Just to be clear I am not a Zen practitioner and, as of right now, I am a student of Kyokushin karate which is more about fighting than anything spiritual. If there is anything cult like about Kyokushin it is the absolute devotion of its practitioners to the art itself. Osu!



It IS sad how it always seems to be Christians. I can't think of an example where a Muslim pulled their child out of a martial arts school for religious reasons.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 19, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It IS sad how it always seems to be Christians. I can't think of an example where a Muslim pulled their child out of a martial arts school for religious reasons.



How many Christian students have you had versus Muslim students?

EDIT:  And is that part of your application form to declare a religious preference?

My point being, be careful about generalizations.  Even if you asked for preferences, how would you know the student was what he or she represented themselves to be?


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> How many Christian students have you had versus Muslim students?



It was just meant as an example to show how no other religion seems to flip out like this. If the choice of religion matters, fine: I have never seen JEWISH parents pull their kids out for religion reasons.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 19, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It was just meant as an example to show how no other religion seems to flip out like this. If the choice of religion matters, fine: I have never seen JEWISH parents pull their kids out for religion reasons.



It happens.

Human rights court does it again | Welland Tribune


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> No they just flip out in other ways.



I know. One of my friends almost COULDN'T be my friend anymore because his parents thought I was a bad influence. 

I guess encouraging someone to have fun every now and then instead of studying themselves to death is enough to make someone qualify for that label from them.


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## blackxpress (Jun 19, 2014)

I've never trained with any Muslims or observant Jews so I wouldn't really know about such things.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

blackxpress said:


> I've never trained with any Muslims or observant Jews so I wouldn't really know about such things.



My friend's PARENTS were observant, but he wasn't. He used to call himself a "fake Jew."


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## donnaTKD (Jun 19, 2014)

i find it funny that religion always comes into the fray at some point - never understood why.  my reasoning is that i've seen and trained alongside people from all walks of life, different cultural backgrounds but once in the gym that all goes out of the window.  people don't go forcing their ideas down your throat like they do outside the gym (i hate that) expecting you to change to their system of beliefs -- i believe in my training and the comfort and tranquility that i get from that and if that's devils work then hell i'll have lots more please 

i got my flat tummy with plenty of muscles - so i'm not going to be strain on the health system - i'm fitter than i've ever been, i feel more "alive" in myself and yet i don't go to church cos my gym is my church, the stuff that's preached is beneficial to me in both the short and the long term, i don't don't go around invading countries and killing people cos that's not right in my book but hell muslims seem to think that's ok, the christians just fight and argue for the hell of it and the catholics would have us believe that more kids in the world would be better for us all.  they all say that being a lesbian is devilish but no reason as to where they got that thought from.

forget this joker and his non devilish views and go back to your gym / dojo and do some more and think of him when you're knocking seven shades out of a bag


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 19, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It was just meant as an example to show how no other religion seems to flip out like this. If the choice of religion matters, fine: I have never seen JEWISH parents pull their kids out for religion reasons.



There need not be any flipping out, nor for that matter, any reason given for why a student is taken out of class.  Have you considered that perhaps they were hoping you could show them how it wasn't true?

Also, you might want to read my post #22 above.  Most major religions don't accommodate belief in another religious systems.  You can't be Christian and Muslim, nor vice versa.  From what I have seen and read, if you want to see a Muslim get extremely agitated, try to get one of their family to convert to Christianity, or any other religion.  So apparently no Muslims you have known considered the MA you were teaching to be a religion.

I am curious though, suppose a person's religion does not allow a person to practice another religion also.  Wouldn't you think them lacking in belief, or insincere, in the practice of the religion that didn't allow another religion to be practiced?  Wouldn't you think it more appropriate if they did in fact decline to practice what they thought to be another religion?  That whether or not you or I agreed?  I wouldn't condone violence in rejecting another religion, nor would I think it appropriate to be contentious in declining to practice the other religion.  But I would respect their choice whether I agreed with their reasoning for making that choice or not.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> There need not be any flipping out, nor for that matter, any reason given for why a student is taken out of class.  Have you considered that perhaps they were hoping you could show them how it wasn't true?
> 
> Also, you might want to read my post #22 above.  Most major religions don't accommodate belief in another religious systems.  You can't be Christian and Muslim, nor vice versa.  From what I have seen and read, if you want to see a Muslim get extremely agitated, try to get one of their family to convert to Christianity, or any other religion.  So apparently no Muslims you have known considered the MA you were teaching to be a religion.
> 
> I am curious though, suppose a person's religion does not allow a person to practice another religion also.  Wouldn't you think them lacking in belief, or insincere, in the practice of the religion that didn't allow another religion to be practiced?  Wouldn't you think it more appropriate if they did in fact decline to practice what they thought to be another religion?  That whether or not you or I agreed?  I wouldn't condone violence in rejecting another religion, nor would I think it appropriate to be contentious in declining to practice the other religion.  But I would respect their choice whether I agreed with their reasoning for making that choice or not.



It wasn't my student. Why are you assuming I am a teacher? I was just a student at the time it happened, but I overheard it being discussed. And martial arts in and of itself is not a "religion," nor does it teach anyone to leave their religion for another. And who is disagreeing with anything? If that is why they wanted to withdraw their kid, that is their right. And I have the right to think it is a silly reason.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 19, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> Most major religions don't accommodate belief in another religious systems.  You can't be Christian and Muslim, nor vice versa.



That would be primarily true of the monotheistic religions. For example, there are many Japanese who practice both Buddhism and Shinto.  Even within the monotheistic religions, there are plenty of people who don't believe that members of other faiths are necessarily demon-worshipping servants of evil.



oftheherd1 said:


> I am curious though, suppose a person's religion does not allow a person to practice another religion also.  Wouldn't you think them lacking in belief, or insincere, in the practice of the religion that didn't allow another religion to be practiced?  Wouldn't you think it more appropriate if they did in fact decline to practice what they thought to be another religion?  That whether or not you or I agreed?  I wouldn't condone violence in rejecting another religion, nor would I think it appropriate to be contentious in declining to practice the other religion.  But I would respect their choice whether I agreed with their reasoning for making that choice or not.



The question wasn't directed at me, but I have no objection to a religious person declining to practice something that they see as the expression of a competing religion. My problem is with a worldview that conceives of all the world beyond a very narrow frame of reference as "evil" and "demonic." I think that sort of worldview hurts the individuals who hold it, the children who are raised in it, and society at large.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 19, 2014)

MA is like a no mans land in a war zone.  battle doesn't take place in the dojo cos it's a learning centre people put everything to one side for however long you're all there for and then at the end everyone goes back to doing what they were all doing before.

MA doesn't pick sides, colours, religions etc..... it's the people that attend that do that and the love ones of those that go who help spread rumours.  there is no place for religion, violence, abuse or anything else in a gym / dojo and the author of the piece would be as well to remember that.  it doesn't matter what the teacher believes in cos there's a curriculum to follow - it's just like normal school - everyone goes to learn first and foremost ---- so the teachers are satan teaching satanic forms 

had a thought --- what would happen if someone rocked up in say iraq and said put down the guns and get in the ring and settle your differences -- don't you think it would be really peaceful ?????  might go total polar though and create more violence if one side loses bigtime................ho hum.............


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 19, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> i find it funny that religion always comes into the fray at some point - never understood why.



Well considering the OP is about witchcraft it is hardly surprising in this instance.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 19, 2014)

can understand your point but witchcraft is part of the dark arts spectrum of things and not a religion though.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 19, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> can understand your point but witchcraft is part of the dark arts spectrum of things and not a religion though.



a) Practitioners of Wicca would tell you that witchcraft is indeed a religion and not "dark arts."
b) Folks like the person who wrote the original article linked in this post typically perceive other religions (Islam, Buddhism, Mormonism, whatever) as being actually "dark arts" and "demon worship" rather than legitimate faiths like their own.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 19, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> can understand your point but witchcraft is part of the dark arts spectrum of things and not a religion though.



There are plenty of people who will tell you that witchcraft *is* their religion, and will adamantly deny that it has anything to do with "dark arts".
Personally, I know a number of wiccans and I don't think any of them are evil.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 19, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are plenty of people who will tell you that witchcraft *is* their religion, and will adamantly deny that it has anything to do with "dark arts".
> Personally, I know a number of wiccans and I don't think any of them are evil.


Nobody thinks that they are evil, it just happens.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 19, 2014)

This is a pre-Abrahamic concept, but instead of good and evil, it is "Us and The Other".


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 19, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> *i find it funny that religion always comes into the fray at some point - never understood why*.  my reasoning is that i've seen and trained alongside people from all walks of life, different cultural backgrounds but once in the gym that all goes out of the window.  people don't go forcing their ideas down your throat like they do outside the gym (i hate that) expecting you to change to their system of beliefs -- i believe in my training and the comfort and tranquility that i get from that and if that's devils work then hell i'll have lots more please
> 
> i got my flat tummy with plenty of muscles - so i'm not going to be strain on the health system - i'm fitter than i've ever been, i feel more "alive" in myself and yet i don't go to church *cos my gym is my church, the stuff that's preached *is beneficial to me in both the short and the long term, i don't don't go around invading countries and killing people cos that's not right in my book but hell muslims seem to think that's ok, the christians just fight and argue for the hell of it and the catholics would have us believe that more kids in the world would be better for us all.  *they all say that being a lesbian is devilish but no reason as to where they got that thought from.*
> 
> forget this joker and his non devilish views and go back to your gym / dojo and do some more and think of him when you're knocking seven shades out of a bag



Interesting that you consider your gym to be your church where you receive preaching, but don't understand why religion always comes into the fray.  Maybe you meant to give another meaning?  

Anyway, your religion is your concern and your beliefs are yours to be right or wrong about, as with all of us.  But I can help you with what reasons Christians should be giving as to why lesbianism or homosexuality are sin.  There are various places in the Old Testament, that talk about sodomy as sin, such as Deuteronomy 23:17,



> *17 *There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.



or in Leviticus 18:22


> Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is *abomination
> *




and in the New Testament, in the 1st chapter of the book of Romans in the Bible.



> 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
> 
> 
> 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.



You may want to do a search on BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages. for 'sodomy' and 'sodomites' as well as reading about Sodom and Lot.  Then read the whole of the 1st chapter of Romans for context.  But basically, neither women nor men should have same-sex intercourse, that being against nature.

You may believe in the Bible or not, or practice Christianity or not, but the Bible does show it to be sin and abomination.  So when people you talk to say it is wrong, but don't know where in the Bible it says so, you can show them something they don't know.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 19, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> Interesting that you consider your gym to be your church where you receive preaching, but don't understand why religion always comes into the fray.  Maybe you meant to give another meaning?
> 
> Anyway, your religion is your concern and your beliefs are yours to be right or wrong about, as with all of us.  But I can help you with what reasons Christians should be giving as to why lesbianism or homosexuality are sin.  There are various places in the Old Testament, that talk about sodomy as sin, such as Deuteronomy 23:17,
> 
> ...


Muppet news flash: Everyone knows that is in the bible.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 19, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It wasn't my student. Why are you assuming I am a teacher? I was just a student at the time it happened, but I overheard it being discussed. And martial arts in and of itself is not a "religion," nor does it teach anyone to leave their religion for another. And who is disagreeing with anything? If that is why they wanted to withdraw their kid, that is their right. And I have the right to think it is a silly reason.



OK, you're not a teacher.  Apologies.  But as to whether or not MA is a religion or not, remember, we here are martial artists, so we see from a different perspective.  Not all non-MA will believe martial arts are religions, but some, not knowing what they have seen, and others they talk to, taking things out of context, may mistakenly believe so.  And I dare say there are some martial arts which started out with religious beliefs in them, and some may retain some of that.  Shaolin Kung Fu is usually credited with that, and as I mentioned before, so is the Japanese Zen Buddhism and some of the Japanese martial arts there.



Tony Dismukes said:


> That would be primarily true of the monotheistic religions. For example, there are many Japanese who practice both Buddhism and Shinto.  Even within the monotheistic religions, there are plenty of people who don't believe that members of other faiths are necessarily demon-worshipping servants of evil.



That is indeed so reference Buddhism and Shinto, Buddhism apparently not caring, or its Shinto believers not understanding Buddhism.  Not being either, I cannot really comment about their beliefs in detail.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The question wasn't directed at me, but I have no objection to a religious person declining to practice something that they see as the expression of a competing religion. My problem is with a worldview that conceives of all the world beyond a very narrow frame of reference as "evil" and "demonic." I think that sort of worldview hurts the individuals who hold it, the children who are raised in it, and society at large.



I wouldn't use the word competing so much as what is seen as a false religion.  I stated above why a Christian must see non-Christian religions as wrong and false.  However, I think a correct Christian should not hate the person who practices a false religion, so much as the sins of a false religion.  And a correct Christian, should he decide to try and proselytize, should do it in a loving manner, pointing out the truths of Christianity, and not simply putting down the other religion.  That won't incline most practitioners of other religions to want to hear what the Christian has to say.  If all they perceive is an attack they will normally defend only, not listen to see if there is anything worth listening to.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Muppet news flash: Everyone knows that is in the bible.



Perhaps, I am not so sure.  But it appeared donnaTKD did not, so I thought it worth while to point it out.


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## crushing (Jun 19, 2014)

Along the same lines as homosexuality in the Bible, but back on the subject of witchcraft; when considering Exodus 22:18, maybe it's in the best interest of those that think of martial arts as witchcraft do stay away.  If they truly have faith in their holy text and believe it to be the truth and word of god, the outcome could be disastrous.


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## Buka (Jun 19, 2014)

I ran a large, busy, well respected dojo  in the eighties and nineties. A lot of the kids class went to a Catholic  grammar school that was a quarter mile away. We didn't teach any  religion and the kids were told to honor whatever their parents taught them.

So  one day there was a problem with two of the kids, both age twelve. I  can't even remember what the problem was, but one of them was lying.  They both swore they were telling the truth. They both went to the  Catholic school. 

I put on a suit and tie and knocked on  the front door (after classes at the school) to ask their help with the  kids. A lay teacher answered and I politely explained my predicament.  She said she would get the boss. (A mother superior) As I introduced  myself and explained to the Nun - she interrupted me. I'll never forget  what she said, "I do NOT speak to heathens!" And she slammed the door in  my face. It was a big door. I have a small face. My nose bled all over  my nice suit and white shirt, and all I could say was, "Wow, that was  different."

So, okay, no help there. I didn't know what  happened the following week until the next Monday, when twenty parents  came walking into the dojo. They wanted to tell me something. They  showed me a letter that was sent out to the parents of every student in  their School. (Most Precious Blood) (hell of a name -says the heathen)  The letter told them if any children went to the "heathen Martial arts  classes" they would be expelled from the Catholic school. I damn near  crapped. Then the parents told me that they all went up there, _forty_  strong, and told Mother Superior that they were all going to pull their  children out of the catholic school if they ever tried to interfere in  their child's study of Martial Arts. It cost a LOT of money to go to  that Catholic school. They also went to the Monsignor and told him the  same thing. He got on that like FAST. Nothing talks like money and bad  press. 

I got a letter about a week later from Mom Superior  telling me it was a "misunderstanding" and we were "welcome to come do a  demo at the school". I respectfully declined. 

I should  point out that I went to that Church as a kid, went to their CYO, and  became a chaperone to the kids in the CYO as a young adult. That was  almost thirty years ago and I know a lot has changed. But it was the  last straw for me in a life that watched the "Holy people" be anything  but. That Monsignor, by the way, was excommunicated in a sex scandal  years later. He also used to shack up with notorious Boston mobster  Whitey Bulger. As a cop, we had a lot of paper on him. (It made for an  interesting read)

So....no reason to share this other than  wanting to get it off my chest. And to point out that some of us  "heathens" might actually have a reason for being that way. Martial Arts  has taught me more by example than any Church I ever attended.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

Buka said:


> I ran a large, busy, well respected dojo  in the eighties and nineties. A lot of the kids class went to a Catholic  grammar school that was a quarter mile away. We didn't teach any  religion and the kids were told to honor whatever their parents taught them.
> 
> So  one day there was a problem with two of the kids, both age twelve. I  can't even remember what the problem was, but one of them was lying.  They both swore they were telling the truth. They both went to the  Catholic school.
> 
> ...



It IS kind of hard to be a part of something that claims to teach peace, love and tolerance when its representatives are slamming doors in people's faces and giving them bloody noses.


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## donald1 (Jun 19, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It IS kind of hard to be a part of something that claims to teach peace, love and tolerance when its representatives are slamming doors in people's faces and giving them bloody noses.



I guess it depends on what someone would consider "peace love and tolerance" means to them specifically. Everybody has a different opinion towards a certain topic and I bet that's what this is


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

donald1 said:


> I guess it depends on what someone would consider "peace love and tolerance" means to them specifically. Everybody has a different opinion towards a certain topic and I bet that's what this is



Well, slamming the door in someone's face certainly isn't peaceful. And not being willing to talk to Buka because he is a "heathen" is not tolerance.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 19, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> Interesting that you consider your gym to be your church where you receive preaching, but don't understand why religion always comes into the fray.  Maybe you meant to give another meaning?
> 
> Anyway, your religion is your concern and your beliefs are yours to be right or wrong about, as with all of us.  But I can help you with what reasons Christians should be giving as to why lesbianism or homosexuality are sin.  There are various places in the Old Testament, that talk about sodomy as sin, such as Deuteronomy 23:17,
> 
> ...



Odd - I know a lot of Christians, including many who are quite fervent about their belief. I've never met one yet who even attempted or advocated attempting to follow all the rules listed in Leviticus.

I've read a number of people arguing that the original Greek and Hebrew terms in these various Bible passages actually referred to temple prostitution, pederasty, and/or rape rather than a consensual loving same-sex relationship. I'm not a scholar of ancient languages or civilizations, so I have no way of judging the plausibility of these claims. (I strongly suspect most people opining one way or the other on the subject are no more qualified than I am.)

The only apparent reference to lesbianism (as opposed to male homosexuality) in the Bible is Romans 1:26. I've seen scholarly arguments that the original meaning of this passage is being misinterpreted as well, but once again I lack the credentials to evaluate whether this is likely to be correct.

Not meaning to start a religious flame war here - just pointing out that even within a given religious tradition there are plenty of divergent views about dogma.

I don't know the crowd DonnaTKD hangs out with. When she says "no reason as to where they got that thought from" I don't know whether she means the people she is referring to don't know specific Bible verses to cite when condemning lesbians or if she means that they don't know the moral reasoning behind why the Bible would make those claims. That's not really a trivial distinction. 

(To illustrate the distinction, I would point to your last paragraph, where you say "the Bible does show it to be sin and abomination." If I accepted that your interpretation of the passages in question exactly matched the original intent, then I would accept the conclusion that the Bible _says _it is sin and abomination. _Says _is different from _shows*_.)

*(I guess that to a believer in biblical literalism and inerrancy, "Bible says" might be the same as "Bible shows." Of course, that sort of belief is far from universal in Christianity as a whole.**) 

**(Of course, to a non-Christian any argument from Biblical authority is meaningless, whether it "says" or "shows" or whether the interpretation of certain passages is disputed or not. Therefore if Christians wish to make a moral argument to someone outside their faith, then it would be a good idea to find some sort of basis for that argument other than citing bible passages.)


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## donald1 (Jun 19, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Well, slamming the door in someone's face certainly isn't peaceful. And not being willing to talk to Buka because he is a "heathen" is not tolerance.



That is true,  it is very rude to slam a door in someone's face and worse on purpose too,  and the fact they wouldn't talk to him and to a quick conclusion he might be a heathen is rather shameful on their behalf 

I don't know their reasons for doing what they do.  I often wonder why people do crazy stuff like that,  are the answers intricate and more complex than first appear or simpler than it seems,  but whether a good reason or bad one I'm sure there is one for which they reacted in such manner


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## Marnetmar (Jun 19, 2014)

I think it's best we stay on the topic of martial arts only, I can see this turning into a flame war on homosexuality real quick.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 19, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> I think it's best we stay on the topic of martial arts only, I can see this turning into a flame war on homosexuality real quick.



Right you are - so, martial arts - sin or abomination?

I've been training for over 30 years and I still haven't mastered mind control, telekinesis, or demon summoning. Does that mean I'm training at a McDojo? If so, does that mean my soul is only McDamned to Heck rather than being properly consigned to an authentic, traditional inferno?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 19, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Right you are - so, martial arts - sin or abomination?
> 
> I've been training for over 30 years and I still haven't mastered mind control, telekinesis, or demon summoning. Does that mean I'm training at a McDojo? If so, does that mean my soul is only McDamned to Heck rather than being properly consigned to an authentic, traditional inferno?


It is almost a sin when you consider the odds my opponents have.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 19, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Right you are - so, *martial arts - sin or abomination*?
> 
> I've been training for over 30 years and I still haven't mastered mind control, telekinesis, or demon summoning. Does that mean I'm training at a McDojo? If so, does that mean my soul is only McDamned to Heck rather than being properly consigned to an authentic, traditional inferno?



You just made me remember something with "*martial arts - sin or abomination*" many years ago a local church was after me to teach a taijiquan class for local clergy and I said ok and they were all so happy and then...... I told them what it would cost...that it was not free....and then it became something they were not sure was inline with what the church was about..... I got the impression that it was either a sin or abomination to expect to get paid for teaching...never did teach that class


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## donnaTKD (Jun 19, 2014)

last time i went to a proper church must be about 20years ago when my auntie got married LoL   i don't read the bible - i've got one but never had any real interest in it because life didn't start 2014 years ago life was all about millions of years before that also it can't have started 2014 years ago cos jesus had parents !

my church is my gym --- i "religiously" go to the gym like some people go to church - some people pray, i kick bags - some like listening to a minister, i like listening to my muay thai coach and the only singing that gets done is the howling of pure pain LoL 

didn't know that the bible condemned gay people to a life of perpetual sin but then again i'm a supposed devil worshipper too so what's the difference either way i'm committing a sin LoL


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## yak sao (Jun 19, 2014)

Witchcraft?

That's offensive...I prefer the term sorcery


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 20, 2014)

Buka said:


> I ran a large, busy, well respected dojo  in the eighties and nineties. A lot of the kids class went to a Catholic  grammar school that was a quarter mile away. We didn't teach any  religion and the kids were told to honor whatever their parents taught them.
> 
> So  one day there was a problem with two of the kids, both age twelve. I  can't even remember what the problem was, but one of them was lying.  They both swore they were telling the truth. They both went to the  Catholic school.
> 
> ...



Makes me proud to be a heathen.


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Right you are - so, martial arts - sin or abomination?
> 
> I've been training for over 30 years and I still haven't mastered mind control, telekinesis, or demon summoning. Does that mean I'm training at a McDojo? If so, does that mean my soul is only McDamned to Heck rather than being properly consigned to an authentic, traditional inferno?




Depends do you train on a Sunday? Apparently god hates that king of thing.

But at least you GI is less likely to be made of mixed fibres.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 20, 2014)

yeah but aren't witches and wizards supposed to wear a gown or cloak ?????  and apparently they can make dreams come true also 

god really must hate me then :-

1) i'm gay
2) i practice muay thai every day of the week
3) my gym is my church 

LoL 

i must be a true exponent of pure ritual satanism and preach hell and war  -- maybe inside the ring


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 20, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Odd - I know a lot of Christians, including many who are quite fervent about their belief. I've never met one yet who even attempted or advocated attempting to follow all the rules listed in Leviticus.
> 
> I've read a number of people arguing that the original Greek and Hebrew terms in these various Bible passages actually referred to temple prostitution, pederasty, and/or rape rather than a consensual loving same-sex relationship. I'm not a scholar of ancient languages or civilizations, so I have no way of judging the plausibility of these claims. (I strongly suspect most people opining one way or the other on the subject are no more qualified than I am.)
> 
> ...



Well, as you may remember, I have stated that I consider the King James Version to be the only correct translation of the Bible, and in fact, the very word of God.  That is something I accept on faith and the little knowledge I have of the history of the Bible in the English language.  You or anyone else may choose to believe differently.  There are scholars who believe in other translations, most from the 1800s on, being descended from a translation heavily influenced by Wescott and Hort.  There are also scholars who disagree, staying with the King James Version.  Since I am in the King James believing camp, I do not agree with other translations, nor scholars that support them.  That is me.  As I said, you or anyone else may believe as you wish.



Marnetmar said:


> I think it's best we stay on the topic of martial arts only, I can see this turning into a flame war on homosexuality real quick.



Point taken.  So I will not make other posts along that line.  But, martial arts and the assertions of martial arts being cults will perhaps have some drift.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 20, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> yeah but aren't witches and wizards supposed to wear a gown or cloak ?????  and apparently they can make dreams come true also
> 
> *god really must hate me then :-*
> 
> ...



Being I am a Christian, I just want to let you know, regardless of what you may do, God does love you.  He would hate anything you do that is a sin, but you He loves.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 20, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> Being I am a Christian, I just want to let you know, regardless of what you may do, God does love you.  He would hate anything you do that is a sin, but you He loves.


Does it say "God Hates" in the Bible? I'm curious. I didn't see that term in the quotes you provided.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 20, 2014)

that term "GOD HATES" was my reposte to the posts before mine given what had been said earlier in the thread about going to church and not practising on sundays and being a "really good girlie " in that i'm not supposed to enjoy life with other girlies 

don't think that god hates is in the bible cos it's "pure" 

and if god really was unhappy about the way i choose to live my life then that's just tough cookies on him   i'm not gunna change cos of some words on a few sheets of paper - i live my life to the max and enjoy everything that i choose to get involved in


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## donnaTKD (Jun 20, 2014)

muay thai is my life 

1) it gives me something to focus on
2) it gives me inner peace and helps me to control my anger / frustrations
3) i like the environment in which i practice in 
4) i love being able to fight twice a week --- ladies and gentlemen - time to knuckle up 
5) it helps me to stay in control of my emotions and gives me an effective outlet for them too 

(think that this was back on topic)

oh and a right hook followed by a right reverse elbow really is the devils work  guarateed KO  luuurrrrvvveeeely


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## jks9199 (Jun 20, 2014)

Folks, things are drifting a tad away from a General Martial Arts forum topic.  I think the discussion of faith and scripture is fascinating, and would be a great discussion, maybe in The Study, maybe in Philosophy & Spirituality in The Arts -- but let's try to stay on topic here.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 20, 2014)

i was trying to bring it back with my last post 

on other point the OP talks of witchcraft of which spirits are a big part of and contacting them through various devious demons is just an active part of that --- my spirits lie in muay thai and my demons try to stop me having fun


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## crushing (Jun 20, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Folks, things are drifting a tad away from a General Martial Arts forum topic.  I think the discussion of faith and scripture is fascinating, and would be a great discussion, maybe in The Study, maybe in Philosophy & Spirituality in The Arts -- but let's try to stay on topic here.



Re-reading the OP and unless I misunderstood it, it seems to me that faith and scripture is absolutely what this topic is about.  For faith and scripture are the foundation for the superstitious aversion to 'martial arts as witchcraft' offered in the OP and others that have shared their experiences in this thread.  A quote in the OP specifically references Leviticus 19:31 "Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God."  Exodus 22:18 takes it to a whole new level and is very clear that death is the punishment for the faithful to mete out to those that engage in witchcraft.

Some mystics may interpret the scriptures differently, or they may have a completely different understanding of martial arts to where they don't think their chosen holy texts prohibit martial arts.  In comparing such interpretations and understandings, excluding faith and relevant scriptures would make the discussion difficult.


Respectfully,
crushing


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## donnaTKD (Jun 21, 2014)

that was my take on it too.  so unless someone has changed the OP to mean something else entirely then what's been written stands as a valid response to the OP and we're still on topic


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## donald1 (Jun 21, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> Being I am a Christian, I just want to let you know, regardless of what you may do, God does love you.  He would hate anything you do that is a sin, but you He loves.



God is  Omnibenevolence ,  he does not hate.  I'm certain he would not want someone to do wrong but he forgives 

I wonder what makes these people believe martial arts is witch craft im certain it does not call it that in the Bible i do not know much of other religions but it would seem strange if they did. 
If some people are raised to believe that that would make sense but then you could ask the people who told them that and so on.  However maybe it is a simple answer and I am over thinking


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2014)

donald1 said:


> God is  Omnibenevolence ,  he does not hate.  I'm certain he would not want someone to do wrong but he forgives
> 
> I wonder what makes these people believe martial arts is witch craft im certain it does not call it that in the Bible i do not know much of other religions but it would seem strange if they did.
> If some people are raised to believe that that would make sense but then you could ask the people who told them that and so on.  However maybe it is a simple answer and I am over thinking




Well it would be worship of a false idol. Which some people have a thing about.

I did some kick boxing in a Muslim area and they couldn't bow properly because it was not Mecca.

 It was a kick boxing/tkd school so the bowing.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Well it would be worship of a false idol. Which some people have a thing about.
> 
> I did some kick boxing in a Muslim area and they couldn't bow properly because it was not Mecca.
> 
> It was a kick boxing/tkd school so the bowing.


Not to mention all the Dragon Talk, and the Chi energy stuff. There are real concerns that people have to weigh against their beliefs. Just because your teacher is a great guy, doesn't mean his ways aren't foreign and difficult to understand.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 22, 2014)

i train wherever and if that offends people then it offends them --- i'm not going to stop training in a certain place just cos it goes against someone else's beliefs.  personally i believe that everyone should have the right to choose what they do and how they do it.

if someone is unable to do something cos of their beliefs then that's their problem doesn't mean that everyone else is just suddenly going to stop doing it.  also i think that people put religion before their art far too often - muay thai and other MA are done in a certain way out of respect to that art not cos some religious person says.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> i train wherever and if that offends people then it offends them --- i'm not going to stop training in a certain place just cos it goes against someone else's beliefs.  personally i believe that everyone should have the right to choose what they do and how they do it.
> 
> if someone is unable to do something cos of their beliefs then that's their problem doesn't mean that everyone else is just suddenly going to stop doing it.  also i think that people put religion before their art far too often - muay thai and other MA are done in a certain way out of respect to that art not cos some religious person says.


If you mean people use religion as an excuse to not stay fit, I am with you, but your wording is going to turn everyone off but a few friends of mine. LOL


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## Buka (Jun 22, 2014)

My dad was born in 1888 in dirt poor, rural Italy. 63 years later I  was born in Boston. When I was four my mom wanted me to start going to  church. Dad told her, "Take him to every church, let him decide which  one he wants to belong to." 

So for the next year and a  half mom would take me into "downtown Boston" (her phrase) and we'd go  to a different church every weekend. We would go to a Protestant church  one week, a Baptist church the next, a Synagogue the following, a  Catholic the next, Methodist after that and on and on. I don't know how  things are today, but when we were noticed we were welcome with open  arms. Most times we just sat through the services going along with  whatever they were doing. For a little kid who had never been in a  church before it was pretty awesome. And churches were beautiful. They  were unlike anything I had ever seen.

Little kids are usually taught by their parents and teachers. But religion and churches weren't really discussed in my house so I had no preconceived notions. All I knew was that churches were different than anything  I had seen. They looked different, they felt different, they smelled  different, they sounded different, the benches were uncomfortable and  sometimes there was singing.

After a year and half of  this, there was one thing I felt more than thought......they were all  praying to the same Guy. They just weren't sure what to call him.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 22, 2014)

T O D sorry for not explaining properly - my bad  

i meant that some people use their religion as way of not taking part in activities.  don't know if it's something that's common all over the world but certainly here and the places in the uk that i've lived in - i've noticed that people that are not native to our country tend to "not care about themselves" too much - like they're overweight and still eating more fat, exercise is seen as the devils work.  and peoplt get laughed at and stared at for daring to exercise.

some people won't associate with people that work out -- strange one this that i've noticed but totally true -- someone said to me once why do you do all that exercise - "you're gunna kill yourself" (i had a heart attack last september) so maybe some truth in this statement LoL   and other say that "you wouldn't catch me doing any of that" so it musy be witch craft or sorcery that's taking place and i must be devilsh to take on satans work


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## wingchun100 (Jun 22, 2014)

I was raised in a home where religion wasn't very strong, so forgive me if I come as ignorant by asking this...but what part of any religion would ban a person from working out to be in better shape? I have never heard that sentiment before.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I was raised in a home where religion wasn't very strong, so forgive me if I come as ignorant by asking this...but what part of any religion would ban a person from working out to be in better shape? I have never heard that sentiment before.


Your reasons for joining a cult like karate group are not their concern. Their concern is that you joined a cult like karate group.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 22, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Your reasons for joining a cult like karate group are not their concern. Their concern is that you joined a cult like karate group.



Oh we are still on the "martial art as cult" subject. When donnaTKD said exercise, I thought she meant lifting weights and so on as well. LOL


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## donald1 (Jun 22, 2014)

I have known a lot of Christians but never heard them have any dislikes towards fitness or martial arts (that could be because they might not know any martial arts groups)  but one thing I'm certain of is a lot of people have their idea of what is"right or wrong " and truly believe they are correct that whatever they are against (could be martial arts like mentioned in this category) but a lot of people will almost always refuse evidence because that is what they believe in.  And I'm pretty sure they spread their beliefs to their children (making the next generation similar)


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## drop bear (Jun 23, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> T O D sorry for not explaining properly - my bad
> 
> i meant that some people use their religion as way of not taking part in activities.  don't know if it's something that's common all over the world but certainly here and the places in the uk that i've lived in - i've noticed that people that are not native to our country tend to "not care about themselves" too much - like they're overweight and still eating more fat, exercise is seen as the devils work.  and peoplt get laughed at and stared at for daring to exercise.
> 
> some people won't associate with people that work out -- strange one this that i've noticed but totally true -- someone said to me once why do you do all that exercise - "you're gunna kill yourself" (i had a heart attack last september) so maybe some truth in this statement LoL   and other say that "you wouldn't catch me doing any of that" so it musy be witch craft or sorcery that's taking place and i must be devilsh to take on satans work



I think that might be cultural because poor people work hard and are skinny.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 23, 2014)

maybe but i've lived in some really rough places and it's always the "outsiders" that look at us natives as though we're different creatures.

i'll explain a bit of my reasoning - so bear with me - the indians, pakistanis, greeks etc.... have loads of fat in their food - especially the greeks -- but they won't or can't be bothered to exercise and so become a drain on this countrys facilities --- hospitals are full of people with type 2 diabetics, people needing hips and knees cos they're obese etc.... and yet it's us people that are in shape, that do look after themselves and don't go reaching for a chocolate cookie every 5 minutes that take the flack for it.

maybe it is a cultural thing but even their kids don't go running round chasing a ball or whatever, i just find the whole thing sad.  i went to the gym last tuesday and there were some big guys there from eastern europe and they couldn't take more than 15minutes of a not really that hard one hour session - the people left standing at the end were the natives and we all had a kick off in the ring.  

i know that my beliefs have been challenged cos i believe in muay thai (traditional) values and it's belief system where hard work time and effort get rewarded with muscles and a fresher feel with a brighter outlook on things.  i am by no means rich but for £2 a time i can afford to use the gym.  i don't even see people from other cultures riding bicycles or skateboards or anything like that and they rarely walk anywhere they just eat more and more ............ 

oh and cos they are a heart attck waiting to happen they're deemed not fit enough to work so can get state benefits which basically keeps them in fat every month -- totally wrong in my view.........


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 23, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> maybe but i've lived in some really rough places and it's always the "outsiders" that look at us natives as though we're different creatures.
> 
> i'll explain a bit of my reasoning - so bear with me - the indians, pakistanis, greeks etc.... have loads of fat in their food - especially the greeks -- but they won't or can't be bothered to exercise and so become a drain on this countrys facilities --- hospitals are full of people with type 2 diabetics, people needing hips and knees cos they're obese etc.... and yet it's us people that are in shape, that do look after themselves and don't go reaching for a chocolate cookie every 5 minutes that take the flack for it.
> 
> ...


The lord helps those who help themselves... You are a Calvinist. No big whoop.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> i went to the gym last tuesday and there were some big guys there from eastern europe and they couldn't take more than 15minutes of a not really that hard one hour session -



I am not saying this is the case but I have a question about this

But what if there reason for being there is to get into shape so they can take more than 15 minutes of a not really that hard one hour session because they can be bothered to exercise, and so they do not become a drain on your countrys facilities, so they dont find themselves in a hospital with type 2 diabetics and people needing hip and knee replacements because they're obese. What if they are there so they can lose weight, get in shape and not be obese? And have decided to not reach for a chocolate cookie every 5 minutes and change their way of eating and not be a heart attack waiting to happen. What if they are there because they want to believe in Muay Thai (traditional) values and it's belief system where hard work time and effort get rewarded with muscles and a fresher feel with a brighter outlook on things.

If that is the case should they be profiled, should a book be judged by its cover, should it be assumed they are not worthy to be there, that they are running contrary to Muay Thai values should they be ostracized and made fun of (quietly of course in whispers). Or should one take the time to get to know them and find out why they are there and if it is for the right reasons would it not be better to help them.

I have been at this MA stuff for a very long time, and I spent several years working in hospitals (in my country) and I have seen a lot, but I still tend to look at each person coming in as in individual and not part of a group and it is possible with that view maybe, just maybe your countries facilities may find themselves a little less stressed, even if that is by only 1 or 2 people, it is still less stress.

Just taking a different POV from the sidelines, which means it is highly possible I have no idea what I am talking about because Im not there


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## donnaTKD (Jun 23, 2014)

the thing is the gym that i go to every tuesday is a fight only gym - put simply you're there to learn the art of muay thai in a ring - you gotta be able to stay the pace, those sessions are not your standard workouts you're there to fight end of.  so you gotta be able to go the distance no matter how much it hurts (and it does) cos you could be in the ring for upto half an hour.

if people want a workout then they oughta be going elsewhere cos the only things in fight club are a few bags a cushioned floor and people that are there to fight -- there are no machines no weight benches no nothing. everyone knows it's a fight club and not a keep fit gym (there's one of those next door to the fight club) so the people that go should already be in reasonable shape.  there are other gyms available for getting in shape before you consider joining fight club.

people that turn up don't get laughed at - they just get sent out if they can't take the pace s'all.  if it's their first time through the door then people do want to know about them, they are made to feel welcome.

but having said all that the people that turn up at the gym for a session are the ones that are trying to do something about their health it's the rest of their community that lets the side down and just carries on regardless of the outcome --- this is what i hate.

the thing with state benefits - i think that obese people should be given a local authority gym membership card and they only get benefits if they lose weight -- just my view of what needs to be done, people lifestyles need to change and  gym's need to become more inviting places for larger people - the equipment is already there and it's over engineered to take the weight of the person 

and with a little bit hocus pocus wizardry it might actually happen


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I think that might be cultural because poor people work hard and are skinny.



off subject but not in my town,at least half the poor are fat, lazy,, and would rather be on welfare than have to work.
But that is a debate for a different thread.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 23, 2014)

Think of some of the things the martial arts are supposed to do for you.
Improve  awareness
Improve reflexes
Create a deeper meaning of life for the person who studies long enough
 these alone could be seen as witchcraft by some

 to say nothing of being invisible, walking on water, scaling supposedly unscaled walls


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 23, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> if people want a workout then they oughta be going elsewhere cos the only things in *fight club* are a few bags a cushioned floor and people that are there to fight -- there are no machines no weight benches no nothing. everyone knows it's a *fight club* and not a keep fit gym (there's one of those next door to the *fight club*) so the people that go should already be in reasonable shape.  there are other gyms available for getting in shape before you consider joining *fight club*.



You forgot the first rule (Don't talk about fight club).


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Think of some of the things the martial arts are supposed to do for you.
> Improve  awareness
> Improve reflexes
> Create a deeper meaning of life for the person who studies long enough
> ...



You forgot walking through walls, flying and invincibility


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## donnaTKD (Jun 23, 2014)

rule number two is that you never tell anyone what actually happens behind the closed doors of fight club


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## wingchun100 (Jun 23, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> rule number two is that you never tell anyone what actually happens behind the closed doors of fight club



I think the third rule is only one fight at a time.

I know the last rule is: "If this is your first night at Fight Club, you HAVE to fight."


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2014)

The first rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club: Someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule: only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule: one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule: no shirts, no shoes. Seventh rule: Fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule: If this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 23, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> You forgot walking through walls, flying and invincibility



Well there are flying kicks.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 23, 2014)

not to mention flying knees   and objects such as flying gloves - that can come at you with alarming speed  just like casper they can be friendly taps on your body or full blown that can put you through walls


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## donnaTKD (Jun 23, 2014)

i love little Casper the Friendly Ghost 

and ghostbusters was ultra cool too   not to mention the part in gremlins where he puts one in the microwave until it explodes  way cool


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## donald1 (Jun 23, 2014)

Don't forget the 5 elements (i forget what order)  fire,  water,  steel (maybe wood?  I don't know i forget the last two)  I'm pretty sure that would play some part in this...


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## wingchun100 (Jun 23, 2014)

Earth, air, fire, water... Mila Jovovich


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WaterGal (Jun 23, 2014)

I want to say the OP is totally crazy, but Mr WaterGal trained with a guy for a while when he was younger who claimed to have some kind of special mystical powers and understanding, and would take adult students to see psychics and have them do tantra and qi gong and stuff like that as part of their training.  But that's _really_ not the norm.  (Also, that guy was a Christian despite all that other stuff.)


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## WaterGal (Jun 23, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It IS sad how it always seems to be Christians. I can't think of an example where a Muslim pulled their child out of a martial arts school for religious reasons.



We did have a Muslim family that pulled their daughter after a trial period because of religious modesty reasons, even though she could and did wear hijab during class. It was unfortunate, because she really, really loved it.  I recently talked to a lady from the local mosque about having an all-girls class in the fall for a bunch of their girls so that that's not an issue, so we'll see how that pans out. 

But even that's not about crazy-pants stuff like mind control and demonic possession, just restrictive cultural stuff.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Don't forget the 5 elements (i forget what order)  fire,  water,  steel (maybe wood?  I don't know i forget the last two)  I'm pretty sure that would play some part in this...



Xingyiquan: Metal, Water, Wood, Fire, Earth


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 23, 2014)




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## drop bear (Jun 23, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Don't forget the 5 elements (i forget what order)  fire,  water,  steel (maybe wood?  I don't know i forget the last two)  I'm pretty sure that would play some part in this...




Doesn't that call up Capitan planet?

Heart power. What a rip off.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 24, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> WE ARE ALL INFIDELS!
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone else find this insanely offensive?



To say I find this insanely offensive would be a big understatement, but this is nothing new, I've seen this stuff before. This guy is nothing but a psycho nutcase and a racist who puts down asians and anything in the asian culture. Another person who is very similar would be Rebecca Brown Yoder, another racist who bashes the martial ars from a Christian standpoint and in doing so abuses Christianity and abuses the Word of God. That's what both these people do, they abuse the word of God. I would love to meet this guy face to face and set him straight.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 24, 2014)

i find that term extremely offensive.

most people couldn't give a rats "£$ what other people religion are they just keep themselves to themselves n stuff.  the being spouted by those 2 people is just a riposte to the islamic BS being spouted by the likes of Hamza and co - i just don't see the difference between the 2 --- they both want a holy war of some mad description and put down anything that they don't like.

MA dojo's / gym's create families of a sort where everyone gets along, has a laugh, trains hard and sometimes fights that always end ammicably with hug for the opponent maybe they don't like the sense of togetherness and that hard training creates bonds between students and teachers.  

maybe cos there are some unwritten rules it makes it magical - i know that the audience at a fight can be the difference between putting the extra 10% into it or not - and that once the fight is over it's like being possessed cos i've yet to find anything that's as powerful a drug as a full on hit of adrenaline   took me a full 6 hours to "come down" after last week's fight 

maybe cos we all attend a "cult" and pay our subs into the "cult" membership kitty to become a part of the "cult" for a period of time --- some pick up guns and join the likes of ISIS - some pick up a gym uniform and go to a gym - they're both "cults" afterall they both capitvate their respective audiences to join in their activites for a specific goal


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## wingchun100 (Jun 24, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> We did have a Muslim family that pulled their daughter after a trial period because of religious modesty reasons, even though she could and did wear hijab during class. It was unfortunate, because she really, really loved it.  I recently talked to a lady from the local mosque about having an all-girls class in the fall for a bunch of their girls so that that's not an issue, so we'll see how that pans out.
> 
> But even that's not about crazy-pants stuff like mind control and demonic possession, just restrictive cultural stuff.



Well, it is just another method of control in my book.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 24, 2014)

donald1 said:


> I have known a lot of Christians but never heard them have any dislikes towards fitness or martial arts (that could be because they might not know any martial arts groups)  but one thing I'm certain of is a lot of people have their idea of what is"right or wrong " and truly believe they are correct that whatever they are against (could be martial arts like mentioned in this category) but a lot of people will almost always refuse evidence because that is what they believe in.  And I'm pretty sure they spread their beliefs to their children (making the next generation similar)



On Christians and karate;

Is it right for a Christian to be involved in martial arts?


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## donnaTKD (Jun 24, 2014)

well that's me scuppered - good job i'm not religious   since according to that article i must be very wicked and possessed by some evil spirit that's locked up in both my heart and mind 

as for praying to buddha that's the first time i've heard that....... i've heard of people praying that they'll walk out of the ring in one piece though 

having said that i suppose that we all try and find some zen like place in us where everything is totally calm, chilled out and peaceful allowing us all to zone in on what we're doing so that we don't get caught up with other distractions and it lets us fully concentrate on what we're trying achieve........... maybe ?????

like has been said we are all possessed by some immaculate spirit and guardian angel (i've got one of these  )


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## ballen0351 (Jun 24, 2014)

Nonsense. I teach karate at my church.  My pastor and his wife and son also attend the classes.  Several churches in the area have martial arts programs as part of their ministry


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## donnaTKD (Jun 24, 2014)

well in that case according to the OP your church must be possessed and run by cult like figures too


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## ballen0351 (Jun 24, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> well in that case according to the OP your church must be possessed and run by cult like figures too



Lol apparently


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## crushing (Jun 24, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> well in that case according to the OP your church must be possessed and run by cult like figures too



Well, one doesn't have to think that martial arts necessarily has anything to do with the supernatural to think that!


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## donald1 (Jun 24, 2014)

I bet they don't really think it's evil,  i bet they are jealous that they are not also in martial arts.  Invincibility they say...  With super powers too...  No I only wish super powers would be involved then sparring or kata would be more interesting :wuguns:


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## donnaTKD (Jun 24, 2014)

i'd love supernatural powers when i'm in the ring and about to take a hiding   it'd be useful to know that no matter what i was going to come out victorious everytime (not likely to happen) instead of ending up out cold in A&E


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 24, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> i'd love supernatural powers when i'm in the ring and about to take a hiding   it'd be useful to know that no matter what i was going to come out victorious everytime (not likely to happen) instead of ending up out cold in A&E


Here is a cool exercise to make it seem you are a magic: Try to make all your moves look the same, out of the gate. They can't defend it if they can't read it; Do pain tolerance exercises, It still hurts and all, but you can have someone stand there and hit you while you react as planned instead of as he planned; Be faster. Pick up your heel to kick, not your knee.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 24, 2014)

i already lift my heel when it comes to a front kick - i find that i can get more power through the kick using the tiny backswing for extra momentum   gotta be some sort of devine intervention to be able to pull it off time and time again   i've never had a leg caught yet but i have felt the impact of it though  

top stuff Mr Guardian Angel - putting more force on it than normal LoL 

to get in the ring with another person requires a bit of devine intervention by your "cult" as you're the chosen one


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## donald1 (Jun 24, 2014)

I wonder what the martial artist from long ago would think if these people told them it was witch craft... :shrug: :argue: 
Maybe feel insulted
Maybe consider them a joke 
Attack?  (doubt it)  might be a little funny to watch but quickly turn gruesome


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 24, 2014)

donald1 said:


> I wonder what the martial artist from long ago would think if these people told them it was witch craft... :shrug: :argue:
> Maybe feel insulted
> Maybe consider them a joke
> Attack?  (doubt it)  might be a little funny to watch but quickly turn gruesome


They would understand, considering private training was probably treasonous.


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## punisher73 (Jun 24, 2014)

As with all things, it isn't that clear cut.

There are many Christians against yoga because it was combined with spiritual practices.  They can't seperate it and just look at it from a physical exercise program.

Same with martial arts.  It was combined in some ways with religion, but also is just a practice of physical techniques.  Most martial arts do not force you to believe a certain way religiously.  BUT, I do know of some indonesian arts that actually have as part of their practice, a process that you channel the spirits of dead masters to teach you and they take over your body to teach you new things.  Now if that was your ONLY exposure to martial arts, what would you think?

Same with "kung fu", many people's exposure comes from the old TV show from the 40 and over people.  It was always shown in the context of being combined with chinese religion.  Most people's view of karate comes from the japanese influence that always combined it with zen practice and assume it is also attached to Buddhism, or the "ninja" stuff that from TV/Movies combines it with supernatural stuff like the author mentioned.

That being said, I don't find it offensive as much as I find it ignorant.  This person has never taken the time to really look at what martial arts really are, and to understand that they are cultural as well as a physical art.  There are MANY martial arts that are taught in other locations that do not teach/share the religious beliefs/ideas of the culture it came from.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2014)

punisher73 said:


> As with all things, it isn't that clear cut.
> 
> There are many Christians against yoga because it was combined with spiritual practices.  They can't seperate it and just look at it from a physical exercise program.
> 
> ...



What has always amazed me about this is that this type of thing says to me that someone's grip on their chosen religion is so tenuous that they are threatened by a Yoga or Taijiquan class


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## donnaTKD (Jun 24, 2014)

i think that's the sum of the parts really - people are ignorant of what MA is all about and then they are that insecure that they believe that MA will take what little belief they have away from them so they condemn it as witchcraft with it's rituals and spiritualist BS.

i'll take my chances with the ghosts and spirits that taught my coach and his coach before him any day thankyou


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 24, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> On Christians and karate;
> 
> Is it right for a Christian to be involved in martial arts?



I think the individual starts off with the wrong premise; that martial arts are steeped in and children of religion.  He almost gets it right in the last paragraph



> *While the physical side of martial arts is probably a good form of exercise, and many Christians do participate in martial arts, it may be a dangerous activity to allow the mind to become influenced by the philosophies associated with karate and all other forms of the martial arts.* The false religious overtones of Buddhism are there whether they are expressed verbally or not. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to separate the philosophies from the activity, and therefore it would be wise for the Christian to use much caution before participating in this kind of activity.



There are Christians that study martial arts.  It would be a shame for a Christian to study a martial art that indeed was based on and taught the principals of a different religion, providing confusion or a chance to inadvertently pick up false teaching.

But then he again shows the false premise, that all martial arts are based on non-Christian religions and principals.  He has probably written what he did in good faith, based on what he has been told.  He just hasn't been told everything.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 24, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> What has always amazed me about this is that this type of thing says to me that someone's grip on their chosen religion is so tenuous that they are threatened by a Yoga or Taijiquan class



From my point of view as a Christian, it would be a shame for someone whose faith was not yet strong, to be influenced by something that caused doubt or back sliding.  When a person's faith is not yet strong, it doesn't mean those who would protect them are wrong in wanting to protect them.  You might question their methods, but surely you would respect their motive.

Although I wouldn't be sympathetic to their view of religion, I would expect almost any religion would wish to protect its practitioners from being influenced by other religions.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> From my point of view as a Christian, it would be a shame for someone whose faith was not yet strong, to be influenced by something that caused doubt or back sliding.  When a person's faith is not yet strong, it doesn't mean those who would protect them are wrong in wanting to protect them.  You might question their methods, but surely you would respect their motive.
> 5
> Although I wouldn't be sympathetic to their view of religion, I would expect almost any religion would wish to protect its practitioners from being influenced by other religions.



Why, what are they afraid of?

Merton studied all religions and all it did was to give him better insight to his own. He did not fear them, it appears he embraced them. And I believe you will find the same attitude with the Dahli Lama as well


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 24, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> I think the individual starts off with the wrong premise; that martial arts are steeped in and children of religion.  He almost gets it right in the last paragraph
> 
> 
> *While the physical side of martial arts is probably a good  form of exercise, and many Christians do participate in martial arts, it  may be a dangerous activity to allow the mind to become influenced by  the philosophies associated with karate and all other forms of the  martial arts.* The false religious overtones of Buddhism are  there whether they are expressed verbally or not. It would be difficult,  if not impossible, to separate the philosophies from the activity, and  therefore it would be wise for the Christian to use much caution before  participating in this kind of activity.
> ...



He also implies that Buddhism is a false religion, which tells you a lot.


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## Cirdan (Jun 25, 2014)

If you are having problem with gaining your supernatural powers, try swithching your osu or domo or whatever you say when you bow for the true words. 

_*"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"

*_Good luck


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## donnaTKD (Jun 25, 2014)

i say a few words to my guardian angel when i get in the ring to fight   it's just something that i've always done, some people say a prayer before raising a glove to the sky, others keep quiet that whichever god it is will keep them safe 

i think that MA and religion can be kept as separate things allowing everyone to take part no matter what their cultural / beliefs may be.

for me too much emphasis is placed on the religious beliefs of a person and not enough on the quality training that's available to that person along with the many opportunities that go with it.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 25, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why, what are they afraid of?
> 
> Merton studied all religions and all it did was to give him better insight to his own. He did not fear them, it appears he embraced them. And I believe you will find the same attitude with the Dahli Lama as well



What is wrong with being afraid of being confused by another religion.  A new practitioner might not be afraid, but be confused.  I am a Christian.  I would not like to see a new Christian confused and/or led astray by a proselytizer of another religion.  Anyone of any religion who did not feel that way surely would not think much of his religion.



RTKDCMB said:


> He also implies that Buddhism is a false religion, which tells you a lot.



It tells me he doesn't believe in Buddhism.  Do you think there is another reason?



donnaTKD said:


> i say a few words to my guardian angel when i get in the ring to fight   it's just something that i've always done, some people say a prayer before raising a glove to the sky, others keep quiet that whichever god it is will keep them safe
> 
> i think that MA and religion can be kept as separate things allowing everyone to take part no matter what their cultural / beliefs may be.
> 
> *for me too much emphasis is placed on the religious beliefs of a person and not enough on the quality training that's available to that person along with the many opportunities that go with it.*



If a martial art is taught that requires belief in aspects of another religious system, and your religion does not accommodate that, how would you be able to study that martial art without inner conflict?  How might that affect your studies?

Out of curiosity, where do you believe your guardian angel comes from, and derives his power to aid you?


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 25, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> It tells me he doesn't believe in Buddhism.  Do you think there is another reason?



To me it suggests that he believes that any religion that is not his own is false.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 25, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> To me it suggests that he believes that any religion that is not his own is false.


Yeah, and your point is? LOL


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 25, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> To me it suggests that he believes that any religion that is not his own is false.



That is what I have been saying about most major religions.

Do you have a religion?  Does your religion not believe that way?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 25, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> To me it suggests that he believes that any religion that is not his own is false.


Are you suggesting the other gods and goddesses are real?


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## IcemanSK (Jun 25, 2014)

For every person that says MA (or yoga, for that matter) is of the devil, there are 10 schools run by people of that same faith. Ignorance of what MA entails (and a lot of assumptions) are the reason for this. Sadly, it's ignorance speaking to others who are uniformed talking about what they think is wrong with others instead of trying to be more kind & compassionate. 

My instructor is a Christian (as am I) and he spent a great deal of time in churches dispelling the "MA is of the devil" myth since the early 70's. 

Too much time is spent :deadhorse, and not enough time doing good.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> What is wrong with being afraid of being confused by another religion.  A new practitioner might not be afraid, but be confused.  I am a Christian.  I would not like to see a new Christian confused and/or led astray by a proselytizer of another religion.  Anyone of any religion who did not feel that way surely would not think much of his religion.



What's wrong with it!?

You're kidding right!? 

I would say that anyone of any religion who does feel that way surely would not have much faith in his/her religion. 

If one truly believes in and has true faith in their religion there is no worry or concern about being swayed or a "proselytizer"

As for what is wrong with that approach: For one learning stops in the name of fear, ignorance and dogma and they justified an Inquisition like that a few years back. 

So someone wants to teach Taiji, which is only associated to Taoism by the fact that some of its movements and fighting applications were based on the I Ching and they are a proselytizer!? A guy teaches Karate which is Japanese and thereby associated with Shinto so he is a proselytizer!?. Someone wants to teach yoga, which is only associated with Hinduism these days pretty much by country of origin only these days and they are a proselytizer!? Better Yet the Dalai Lama shows up just to give a speech and he is then also a proselytizer!? If someone of another religion (Catholicism, udaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslimism, any of the versions of Protestantism, etc)  shows up at a "Christian" church just to take a look and starts talking to people...is that person a proselytizer?

Thomas Merton was a Catholic and not only was he not afraid of other religions he studied them and wrote extensively about them and all it seemed to do was strengthen his faith.You may want to give him a read...or am I now being a proselytizer


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## jks9199 (Jun 25, 2014)

I don't believe the truth of one faith over another was the issue in this thread.  Debates about the validity of any faith are bound to go downhill real fast.

Let's get back to the topic of people saying that martial arts training violates a religion or is witchcraft, and get away from Faith X is true or not.

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic.

jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator
*


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> WE ARE ALL INFIDELS!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To get back on topic and in response to the OP


Well that is just based on a flawed understanding of history with a lot of assumption with a dash of complete ignorance of facts thrown in
For one thing Lao Tzu never said anything about salvation by the definitoin you might get from a Christian &#8220;deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.&#8221; And while I&#8217;m talking about Lao Tzu, he may or may not have existed at all. 

And nothing about bending like trees to evil and wrong either

As for Bodhidharmam he liekly did not exist and there is nothing called the &#8220;I Ching Sutra&#8221; Also no one combined Kung fu with the philosophical principle of Zen since Zen came after Chan and Chan is what is at Shaolin but even with that no one combined Kung FU philosphy with Chan either. For one thing &#8220;Kung Fu&#8221; (a bad translation) philosophy would be about fighting. And the Buddhism that likely came to Shaolin was likely Mah&#257;y&#257;na Buddhism. 

And the last thing I will say is Taijiquan IS part of what he is calling Kung Fu.

There are so many holes in that thing it would be comical if it were not for the sad fact that someone is going to believe him
I have to leave now, if I had time I would write more but most of that is a load of&#8230;.you know


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## crushing (Jun 25, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> WE ARE ALL INFIDELS!
> 
> Does anyone else find this insanely offensive?




No, I'm not particularly offended by other people's superstitious beliefs.  As long as they don't use those beliefs in the supernatural to harm others I take a live and let live approach.

It's true that we are all infidels.  According to one holy text or another or multiple holy texts, each one of us is an infidel.  Along the same lines, unless one believes in all gods one is an atheist to some degree.  Some atheists take it all the way down to not even believing in one of the over four thousand gods we are left with today (down from, perhaps, tens of thousands of gods).


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## donald1 (Jun 25, 2014)

If I go to the dojo and bring holy water maybe it would be okay.  I doubt the instructor will let me sprinkle it on anybody but you never know tell you get that upset look (sometimes disappointed look)  either way he will probably say to do pushups... 
But that would keep the churchs quite,  a bottle of holy water a day keep the church away


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> What church took out things in the Bible?  I believe the KJV Bible is the inspired and infallible word of God, so I don't believe anything has been left out or added to those words God wants us to have.
> 
> We do know that Peter commented on some of Paul's writings.  Would you consider that to be Peter witnessing anything about about Paul, who wrote things he witnessed about Jesus?  Even if you would not, I accept it on faith.  You may not.



Catholic Bible and Protestant bible are not the same

Look up The Decree of Damasus

And these 

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110610052642AAw3OC9

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080119103755AAi0QUJ

_Folks, this is my last word on this the moderators want it back on topic so I shall no longer post on religious issues outside of the OP. I shall be ripping that apart later when I have time because there are more holes in that than Swiss cheese_


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## Cirdan (Jun 26, 2014)

I wonder, does martial arts practice/witchcraft cause earthquakes the same way women behaving promiscously does?

Women to blame for earthquakes, says Iran cleric | World news | theguardian.com


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## crushing (Jun 26, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> I agree with that.  And I agree that it should be the topic of a different thread.  What I find mildly amusing is that I pointed out early on that there was no mention of witchcraft in what the OP quoted.  But everyone keeps going with the the title of the thread.  ;-)



Witchcraft is mentioned a half dozen times at the OPs linked site we are discussing.


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## jks9199 (Jun 26, 2014)

Thread locked pending review.

jks9199
MT Asst Administrator


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## jks9199 (Jun 26, 2014)

Folks,
A number of posts that were off topic in this thread have been moved to a new thread, The Bible, Faith, and Martial Arts.  Please keep this thread on topic, and I hope you'll continue the discussion in that thread.

jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 26, 2014)

Martial Artists are like magicians, anyone who spends that much time paying attention to the detail of their own motion ends up being kind of a weird person. Like a Marine, your body begins to take on a command of its very own, and or, you become graceful as a ballerina, and it just seems off to a normal person. If that ain't magic, I don't know what is. Your very gate can change the behavior of those around you! You my friends are witches!


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## donnaTKD (Jun 26, 2014)

and i suppose that when you perform a flying kick or a flying knee people expect you to be drinking red bull and growing wings too 

all very magical to those that don't know how to dance the dance  

and then there's the "tango" in the muay thai ring where your feet are constantly moving in squares never more than shoulder width apart  now that's spooky  

and when you get to the checkout in the grocery store and you stand front on but with your leading leg pointing straight at the checkout person and your right foot is shoulder width apart - knee slightly bent and you're up on the ball of your foot ready to strike must look completely nuts too 

all very much witchcraft and wizardry -- that comes as part of martial arts muscle memory


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2014)

Still waiting for my telepathy, telekinesis and mind control powers...


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 26, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Still waiting for my telepathy, telekinesis and mind control powers...


Its OK to practice awareness, posture, and position yourself to force certain attacks.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> WE ARE ALL INFIDELS!
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone else find this insanely offensive?



Alrighty then&#8230; here we go 



> The Martial Arts are more than just a method of self-defense or a system of health exercises. They actually involve a life philosophy derived from eastern religions. The testimonies of Karatekas a devout practitioner of karate or other forms of martial arts do not hide the fact that the martial arts are more than just a sport."Karatedo another form of karate is an art and I teach it as a way of being, a way of life, as a method of developing one's self, and not as a sport," states one teacher. Karate is not a fighting sport. This was completely misconstrued by people of this country where it was taken and turned into a sport.



Actually I think the sport thing started before this country, see Sumo, Shuaijiao, Judo, etc.



> There are many conflicting theories regarding the origin of the martial arts. The account stated here is a widely accepted survey that traces the general history of the martial arts and goes back too the dawn of civilization in India. Three millennia ago in China, the arts were developed even more extensively. By the establishment of the Feudal States in 770 B.C., Kung fu was widely practiced.



Not exactly and widely accepted by who?



> In 1928 they were renamed War Arts and were awarded national recognition. Over the centuries various aspects of the arts were modified and eventually evolved into more or less violent types.



Yes and no&#8230;in China, mostly no until Modern Wushu showed up and even then Sanda was born so&#8230;



> Northern and Southern schools and hard and soft forms also developed. Kung fu was the original all inclusive term describing the martial arts.



No, Kung Fu means hard work it does not mean martial arts. Wushu means martial arts and North and south are a result of geographical locatoin and dynastic change



> Later, specific names were applied to its variations: karate, tai chi, judo, jujitso, and aikido.
> In Korea, the arts were known as Te Kwon Do. They were honed into their highest forms of proficiency in Okinawa.



Again no. Karate is Japanese, Tai Chi (Taiji) is Chinese, Judo is Japanese and fairly new, Jujutsu is Japanese and Aikido is Japanese and again fairly new. Teakwondo is Korean and most of tehm are not honed into thier highest proficincy in Okinawa



> Though one often thinks of the arts as made in Japan, they have many roots and cultural variations. The original religious philosophy of Kung fu dates back as far as 2696 B.C., where it was rooted in the Occult forms of divination known as the I-Ching and the book of Changes.



Nope, but the year may be right, i get 2697BCE but what is 1 year when you are talking 4700 years, if you are looking for the oldest &#8220;Kung Fu&#8221; you need to look at Shuiajiao and its roots are in hurting people, not the occult and not the I Ching. It could be possible that a guy doing jiao di". However if Lao Tzu even existed the oldest records place him between 600 and 400 BCE so the book attributed to Lao Tzu was likely not around in 2696BC. Also the oldest I-Ching found is from the 4th century BCE. There are things thought to be the precursor to the I-Ching but they were not called the I-Ching



> Lao-Tse, the Chinese sage born in 604 B.C., added further embellishments. His teachings were set forth in a 5,280 word manuscript called Tao Te Chang, also known as " the Tao" or "the Way".



The year of lao tzu's birth could be right (if he existed at all) since historians tend to feel he would have existed between 600 and 400BCE. But no, he either wrote it or his name was applied to a bunch of other text when they were slapped together to gain legitamcy (but then I think Loa tzu means old teacher). If he existed, there is no one out there (talking Chinese historians) saying he empleshed it. They thing Confucious may have though



> He taught salvation could not be found in prayer but rather by the observance of nature, the natural way.



No mention of &#8220;Salvation&#8221; by the Christian definion in the I-Ching



> As the trees bend with the wind, and rivers follow the path of least resistance, so must man adapt to the rhythm with evil and wrong.



Nope, nothing about accepting evil and wrong



> The next development in history of Kung fu took place when a monk named Bodhidharma brought Buddhism to China in sixth century A.D. When he discovered the monks sleeping during his lectures, he introduced exercises to assist them in meditation. Known as I-Ching Sutura, his system combined Kung fu with the philosophical principle of Zen to develop a highly sophisticated form of weaponless fighting.



Nope, likely Bodhidharma never existed, Zen did not exist at that time either and there is no I-Ching Sutra, that is just plain made up by the author as far as I can tell.



> The monks at his Shaolin temple became famous for their savage abilities of defense which they employed whenever they were attacked in the course of pilgrimages. Eventually two schools of martial arts evolved; Ch'uan Fe (Kung fu) based on the hard (external) school of Buddhism, and other arts founded on the soft (internal) school of Taoism.



I don&#8217;t think so. Taoism is indigenous to China, Buddhism isn&#8217;t and there was no internal, external talked about until much MUCH later; 1600s AD



> Martial arts have evolved into six basic forms by which they are known. In the Western world they are known as: Kung Fu, Tai Chi Ch'uan, Karate, Akido, Judo and Jujitsu.



Nope, first Taiji is &#8220;Kung Fu&#8221; second forms are part of styles they are not style but lets give him the benefit of the doubt here and just say he meant styles&#8230;he is still wrong. there are a hell of a lot more styles of martial arts out there other than the 6 he listed in japan alone. 



> Such Occult experimentation is forbidden in Leviticus 19:31. Karate works by inducing a passivity in the mind setting the stage for a type of self-hypnosis. A demon then enters and gives supernatural strength and power. Karate teachers call this "going into perfection." Kung Fu which is rooted in Zen Buddhism, was popularized by a TV series of that name. Bruce Lee movies (Enter the Dragon; Way of the Dragon; Return of the Dragon; Game of Death) also spread this occult science across the nation.



Nope, first some &#8220;Kung Fu&#8221; styles are associated with Taoism. And none of this give anyone &#8220;Supernatural powers&#8221; that is just a load of Scatology. Although some during the boxer rebellion thought they had supernatural powers...they found they didn't 



> Spirits of Murder, Hatred, Pride, Bitterness, Depression, Resentment, Fear, Violence, Lust for Power, Lust for (green, brown or black) Belts, Sexual Lust, Fighting, Rage, Destruction, Suicide, Sadism and Masochism are some of the spirits commonly found in those who have trained in Martial Arts. Some of the more heavily possessed individuals have also become very adept at Mind control, Telepathy, Telekinetic, Mind reading, Astral projection and Soul travel under the leadership of demonic guides.



And that last bit is so incredibly silly, But&#8230;there is no belt system in traditional Chinese martial arts so no lust for belts in China, there was lots of &#8220;Murder, Hatred, Pride, Bitterness, Depression, Resentment, Fear, Violence, Lust for Power, Sexual Lust, Fighting, Rage, Destruction, Suicide, Sadism and Masochism&#8221; but that is pretty much the history of the world. Martial arts not actually the cause of that. Look at ancient Greece, Rome, Europe, etc. Hey look at the Crusades if that was full of &#8220;Murder, Hatred, Pride, Bitterness, Depression, Resentment, Fear, Violence, Lust for Power, Sexual Lust, Fighting, Rage, Destruction, Suicide, Sadism and Masochism&#8221; And China, Japan and marital arts had nothing to do with that


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## donald1 (Jun 26, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Martial Artists are like magicians, anyone who spends that much time paying attention to the detail of their own motion ends up being kind of a weird person. Like a Marine, your body begins to take on a command of its very own, and or, you become graceful as a ballerina, and it just seems off to a normal person. If that ain't magic, I don't know what is. Your very gate can change the behavior of those around you! You my friends are witches!



Like flips and throws,  now hees here...  Now he is on the floor or once I went to a pressure point seminar it was pretty cool,  the guy took a volunteer and had him by twice fingers and made move all around and made him walk around like a chicken,  if that's not magic i don't know what is :hmm:


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Like flips and throws,  now hees here...  Now he is on the floor or once I went to a pressure point seminar it was pretty cool,  the guy took a volunteer and had him by twice fingers and made move all around and made him walk around like a chicken,  if that's not magic i don't know what is :hmm:



And mind control! "If you cluck like a chicken, the pain will stop"... and sure enough, he clucks.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 26, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> and i suppose that when you perform a flying kick or a flying knee people expect you to be drinking red bull and growing wings too
> 
> all very magical to those that don't know how to dance the dance
> 
> ...



I can magically make one piece of wood turn int two and I can make my enemies disappear.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 27, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> No, Kung Fu means hard work it does not mean martial arts.



I thought that Kung Fu means the attainment of skill through learning and practice,a chef who makes a fine meal has shown good Kung Fu for example.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 27, 2014)

was going to say how so ? but then again he's using weapons and he obviously mastered those weapons to achieve the end result   happy dayz 

could say also that everytime i fix someones battered car and get it to work properly then i've shown good kung fu -- if what you're saying is right ? 

not used muay thai on a car yet - think it's a bit too violent for a tepremental tin box


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> I thought that Kung Fu means the attainment of skill through learning and practice,a chef who makes a fine meal has shown good Kung Fu for example.



hard work...is the translation....attainment of skill through learning and practice is hard work


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 27, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> I wonder, does martial arts practice/witchcraft cause earthquakes the same way women behaving promiscously does?
> 
> Women to blame for earthquakes, says Iran cleric | World news | theguardian.com



Some earthquakes are caused by shear forces, the next one might be caused by the shear ignorance of some people.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 27, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> I can magically make one piece of wood turn int two and I can make my enemies disappear.


Did you hear about the martial artist who accidently walk into a gay bar? He disappeared with a poof.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 27, 2014)

^^^ now that's what i call real magic  ^^^


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 27, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> ^^^ now that's what i call real magic  ^^^


As Freddie Mercury would say, "It's that kind of magic"


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## donnaTKD (Jun 27, 2014)

making things disappear is magic  no one really wants to know where they've just disappeared to though 

it's a bit like the vanishing bruise   use enough makeup and anything can be hidden 

just like real witchcraft it's all in the portrayal of the illusion   seeing someone like me in full flow - now there's a blink and you'll miss it real life optical illusion


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 27, 2014)

The true magic to martial arts is not to create fear, for fear is the you killer.  The magic is in becoming invisible, and by that I mean, that when a bully sees you, he does not see you as a target. 
Sean


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2014)

In the link provided by the OP, it talks about lusting for belts, lusting for green belt, brown belt, black belt, ect. That is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve something. That same lust for belts can be applied to just about anything else. In school it could be said that some students lust for good grades such as As, in Boyscouts it can be said that some scouts lust for boyscout badges and boyscout rank, so it can be applied to anything. Whoever wrote the link clearly doesn't know what they're talking about and needs to get their head screwed on right.


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## donald1 (Jun 27, 2014)

Or mind tricks when i tell students to practice kata or bunkai...  What is this sorcery?!   I told the students to stand in front of the class and practice there forms and guess what...  They did it.  This has got to be witch craft... 
And when I get paid,  every time i get my wallet the pay disappears i wanna ask this guy if this is witch crafts too...  Or is it evil demons...


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## donnaTKD (Jun 28, 2014)

i'd also like to know why my bank balance is reading near zero at the end of every month considering what i earn and what i haveto fork out to go to fights --- maybe it's the devil saying "yeah well if you didn't go then you'd have more cash and be the size of a house so we'd meet each other eventually "

i'd also like to know why my sparring partner has gone soft on me - maybe it's cos i got the devil in my gloves :viking3: really wouldn't mind knowing what the fear is


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## donnaTKD (Jun 29, 2014)

there was definitely magic or some sort of devine intervention in the ring yesterday   i was getting my butt kicked properly then all of a sudden i just started swinging and putting combinations together in a sort of "if i'm going down - i'm going down scrapping" way and i won  

really don't know where i got it from or where it came from either but hell i'll take the result LoL 

still can't understand what if anything was looking after me


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## Balrog (Jun 30, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It IS sad how it always seems to be Christians. I can't think of an example where a Muslim pulled their child out of a martial arts school for religious reasons.


Agreed.  It's always the fundies who seem to ask the questions about heathen religious practices in the schools, etc.  

In my school currently, I have four families that I know are Muslim, one that I know is Hindu, at least four Catholics and one solid agnostic.  Several others that I don't know about, but I'll assume they are probably some form of Christianity until I learn otherwise.  But it doesn't matter.  Once we step on the floor, we are all worshiping in The Church Of The Jumping Sidekick.  :boing1:  Even my cat does.


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## donnaTKD (Jul 1, 2014)

^^^ LoL at your cat ^^^ 

thinking that maybe it's been watching you train too many times   i know that my dog throws punches with his front paws when he scraps 

they say that animals are like their owners - if that be so then it's no wonder that we've pets practicing the darker side of martial arts witchcraft and wizardry


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## Cirdan (Jul 1, 2014)

Well that cat is clearly posessed by a demon if you ask me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(please PM me the ritual for conjuring demon spirits in small animal hosts, my master never thaught me that one)


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## donnaTKD (Jul 1, 2014)

i totally agree that cat has got serious skills  - should be allowed to compete on a bigger stage and to a wider audience 

i'd love some of whatever it is that my dogs been taking lately - sure it's special powers that enable him to have a really good scrap with out getting any injuries at all  must be possessed surely


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## Balrog (Jul 1, 2014)

I don't know whose cat that is.  Somebody emailed me that pic years ago and he got it off the Internet.

The last cat I had practiced the secret ninja art of watafumo: stealth cat-farting.  He would do things like get behind the sofa or under your chair, then let one loose that would make you swear that something had crawled up inside him and died.  What was really funny was if you happened to see him do it.  He'd be lying there under the chair, then he'd fart and suddenly sit up and look around like he was trying to put the blame on somebody else.  

I miss that little monster sometimes.


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## donnaTKD (Jul 1, 2014)

my dog does (he's my avatar pic) a similar thing - he farts, smells his butt and then goes running into the other room "it wasn't me - honest " 

it's amazing what kind of witchcraft and skullduggery our pets can get upto and yet we just laugh about it   now that's witchcraft  

leading you to believe that something is funny and not in the least bit disgusting cos you love them - gotta be something mystical and magical at play surely


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## donnaTKD (Jul 1, 2014)

you'll have to get another cat and teach it some serious MA skills then you can get into a scrap knowing that your cat's got your back


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 1, 2014)

Balrog said:


> Agreed.  It's always the fundies who seem to ask the questions about heathen religious practices in the schools, etc.
> 
> In my school currently, I have four families that I know are Muslim, one that I know is Hindu, at least four Catholics and one solid agnostic.  Several others that I don't know about, but I'll assume they are probably some form of Christianity until I learn otherwise.  But it doesn't matter.  Once we step on the floor, we are all worshiping in The Church Of The Jumping Sidekick.  :boing1:  Even my cat does.



Reminds me of my dog who knew Jui Shitzu.


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## chrstnkenpoist (Jun 8, 2021)

wingchun100 said:


> I remember reading an article in INSIDE KUNG FU years ago where a woman pulled her son out of karate because it teaches us to worship "the God within."


Like anything else. It depends who you train with and what they teach. Many of the traditional arts taught with Buddhist and other eastern philosophies. I believe a lot of systems that are taught in the US have gotten away from this stuff but it was there. The person who posted all that stuff must’ve had a bad experience somewhere. It’s not right to paint all martial systems with that brush. It would be like painting all Christians with the brush of Jim Jones. At least that is in my humble opinion.


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## CGMWilling (Jul 10, 2021)

chrstnkenpoist said:


> Like anything else. It depends who you train with and what they teach. Many of the traditional arts taught with Buddhist and other eastern philosophies. I believe a lot of systems that are taught in the US have gotten away from this stuff but it was there. The person who posted all that stuff must’ve had a bad experience somewhere. It’s not right to paint all martial systems with that brush. It would be like painting all Christians with the brush of Jim Jones. At least that is in my humble opinion.


There are many forms of martial arts. Aikido Which relies on circular motion., many different forms of Japanese Karate, that works with Momentum to a large degree Judo, which is reliant on leverage Jiujitsu Which studies the joints in circular motion. Kung Fu, which imitates animal movements. (I am still confused about the dragon style) Did they study the movement of a real dragon? To lump  these are all together and coming up with a hypothesis it is over 4000 years old seems a bit of a stretch. Well there are many instructors that want to turn themselves into God like images (which is not unusual) and perform demonstrations that make them appear to have powers that are beyond human i.e. The bed of nails where they put 100 pounds of their body weight On about One thousand nails (So each nail supports 1/10 of a pound) which is not enough to break the skin. And then put four patio blocks on top of them that are broken by a sledgehammer seems awesome! Until you realize at the patio blocks work like a bullet proof vest and absorb all the impact. I’m waiting for the time that they get the same treatment but without the patio blocks and take the sledgehammer directly to the stomach. Of course any organization it has someone in charge that dictates all the rules without question does sort of have a cult like look to it. Especially if you cannot ask questions. You just have to believe what is it, and drink the Kool-Aid. But the entire premise doesn’t seem to make sense. Farm implements such as sickles, nunchucks, Manrikigusari (Sorry for the spelling) etc. came along closer to the 1600s because the farmers were not allowed to own weapons like the samurai sword. Today there are things like physics and neurology and the actual laws that make it so that you cannot just check out your sword by cutting off your neighbors head. So whatever the origin (which I do not know what was going on four thousand years ago, All I can say is that it has been a passion of mine for over 50 years. I enjoy it as much now as I did when I started. So for those who want to appear more than human. I believe it was the words of General Stillwell: The higher a monkey climbs a pole the more you can see it’s ***. I am grateful for that confidence in my ability and the fact that I can live my life the way I choose without having to be intimidated buy some steroid head that has nothing but form with no function. I am lucky to have found the beauty in the study of self-defense. I am also proud of the fact that I have been able to pass along the knowledge I have procured to others that now have the confidence and  ability to follow their own Path in life. It’s nice to feel that I have given back more to the world and I have taken from  it. There are two sides to a coin. Before you choose to say is the negative extremist side, enjoy your life by giving yourself reasons to avoid and not  experience some of the finer things that life has to offer. Here’s one of my friends said to me that was deeply into reincarnation “well, you’re only go around once you might as well enjoy it“. Respectfully, Grandmaster Willing


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