# Question about Ahp Chagi with Focus Pads



## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

Last night, we were drilling with focus pads.  My partner had a focus pad in each hand.  He tooks steps backward and I alternated kicking each pad with an ahp chagi.

He was holding the pad flat/horizontal as he was instructed to do.  Here is my question.  I hit the bottom of the pads with the top of my foot because when I tried to hit the pad with the ball of my foot, no go!  I just jammed my toes painfully.  Should I have been hitting the pads with the ball of my foot and maybe the pads just needed to be held higher???

I'm pretty sure my technique was wrong.  I noticed that I was more or less flicking my foot up instead of making the more circular-like motion we do in ahp chagi.


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## Sapper6 (Jul 18, 2007)

Hi Lynne,

I've found that when working kicks of this nature on focus pads/hand mitts, it's better if your assisting partner would hold the pad at a diagonal angle down, and not completely horizontal.  less jamming that way.

however, as we work our kicks more, the tendons in our toes are gradually stretched back.  over time, your partner can continue to angle the pad more horizontally until you are kicking the way you described, only without jamming your piggies.

cheers!


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

Sapper6 said:


> Hi Lynne,
> 
> I've found that when working kicks of this nature on focus pads/hand mitts, it's better if your assisting partner would hold the pad at a diagonal angle down, and not completely horizontal. less jamming that way.
> 
> ...


Thank you!  Ahhh...makes sense.  Next time, I'll ask him/her to angle the pads a bit so I can kick correctly.  The instructor didn't catch what I was doing wrong - they can't see everything or maybe they were just happy we kept moving instead of passing out from exhaustion. :whip1:


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## Kacey (Jul 18, 2007)

Not being in TSD, I can't say with any certainty - but the ahp chagi (front kick) that I know is performed with the ball of the foot, and rather than flipping the foot up from the knee (which will cause you to kick the pad with the top of your foot), you need to raise your knee, then extend the ball of your foot horizontally toward your target, keeping your foot level and allowing your knee to drop.

However, if your ahp chagi is different than ours, then none of the above is relevant.  If it is, the advice you were given about tilting the pads will only encourage you to continue to do the kick incorrectly.  You need to ask your instructor _why_ the pads were held horizontally before you change the angle they are held at.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Not being in TSD, I can't say with any certainty - but the ahp chagi (front kick) that I know is performed with the ball of the foot, and rather than flipping the foot up from the knee (which will cause you to kick the pad with the top of your foot), you need to raise your knee, then extend the ball of your foot horizontally toward your target, keeping your foot level and allowing your knee to drop.
> 
> However, if your ahp chagi is different than ours, then none of the above is relevant. If it is, the advice you were given about tilting the pads will only encourage you to continue to do the kick incorrectly. You need to ask your instructor _why_ the pads were held horizontally before you change the angle they are held at.


 
We do them exactly as you describe, Kacey.  And we certainly aren't supposed to be flicking our leg up but as you said raise the knee, then extend the ball of your foot toward the target.  But since these were held out horizontally, instead of a vertical pad or Wavemaster/punching bag, I couldn't strike the bottom of the pads with the ball of my foot.  It might be inflexibility at this point in my training, but my toes won't bend back far enough to strike the bottom of the pads with the ball of my foot.


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## zDom (Jul 18, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Not being in TSD, I can't say with any certainty - but the ahp chagi (front kick) that I know is performed with the ball of the foot, and rather than flipping the foot up from the knee (which will cause you to kick the pad with the top of your foot), you need to raise your knee, then extend the ball of your foot horizontally toward your target, keeping your foot level and allowing your knee to drop.



A very nice description of the front kick. I usually have to get my points across about front kicks using hand motions, etc.

(salute!)


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## MBuzzy (Jul 18, 2007)

Lynne,

Also, I would caution you to immediately stop and ask the instructor if you have a question like that in class.  Better to walk over and ask than to permanently damage your foot!  It sounds like you have the right idea, but if you can't hit the pad with the ball of your foot - reorient the pad, as suggested!

I know from experience, I jammed my foot sparring someone who blocked with a VERY well placed elbow and it hurt for close to a MONTH!


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## foggymorning162 (Jul 18, 2007)

The pad should be held vertical for an ahp cha ki the only time you would kick upwards with a front kick would be like a kick to the groin and then you would want your toes pointed (as if it were a tollyo ahp cha ki) so as not to jam them.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

foggymorning162 said:


> The pad should be held vertical for an ahp cha ki the only time you would kick upwards with a front kick would be like a kick to the groin and then you would want your toes pointed (as if it were a tollyo ahp cha ki) so as not to jam them.


In this case, they were held flat out - horizontal.  I've hit the large focus pads and Wavemaster which are vertical.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Lynne,
> 
> Also, I would caution you to immediately stop and ask the instructor if you have a question like that in class. Better to walk over and ask than to permanently damage your foot! It sounds like you have the right idea, but if you can't hit the pad with the ball of your foot - reorient the pad, as suggested!
> 
> I know from experience, I jammed my foot sparring someone who blocked with a VERY well placed elbow and it hurt for close to a MONTH!


 
Good point about asking the instructor.  I really should have done that.  For one thing, when you are kicking like that, "underneath" a pad, the instructor can't see what your toes are doing unless they bend down to look!

One time in class, we were doing punch combinations.  When we moved forward with the punch I was dragging the top of my foot along the mat.  Boy, was my foot getting warm and it didn't feel right.  No one caught it either. I asked the instructor, "Are we supposed to drag the top of our foot along the mat as we move forward."  "No, oh, no.  Slide on the ball of your foot."  Ha ha.  Well, that makes sense but in class I'm so focused on this or that, that I might actually overlook common sense things such as that.  If the instructor doesn't catch it, I teach myself a bad (and painful) habit.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 19, 2007)

(1) I'd make sure it's held slightly diagonal for ahp chagi, most certainly. You're not going to be kicking straight over top of your head, are you? You're going to be kicking your enemy's face/solar plexus, which is forward. I'd also make sure you bring your knee up to your chest before shooting out the kick. 

I must confess, I myself have a hard time with pulling my toes back. For some reason, whether due to my flat arches or something else, my toes just don't pull back like they should, and my feet can't point more than a few degrees. I've been working them for 8 years now, and they're better than they were, but there are some things with which you've just gotta deal. My instructor told me to push them up against a wall, to stretch out the ligaments, etc., but it didn't really work all that much.

(2) Unless you're doing palche so, you shouldn't be sliding your feet at all, and I do mean _at all_. Pick up your feet; you'll move more easily.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm as flat-footed as a pancake, too, JT.  To make things worse, I have a deep scar on the instep of my right foot.  It actually causes a balance problem - I really notice it in side kicks.  Not having a 1/4 inch of flesh there makes my foot wobble.  I am sure I will learn how to compensate.

My daughter said I should have asked my partner to tilt the pads just a little, that they should not have been flat.


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## DArnold (Jul 24, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I'm as flat-footed as a pancake, too, JT. To make things worse, I have a deep scar on the instep of my right foot. It actually causes a balance problem - I really notice it in side kicks. Not having a 1/4 inch of flesh there makes my foot wobble. I am sure I will learn how to compensate.
> 
> My daughter said I should have asked my partner to tilt the pads just a little, that they should not have been flat.


 
What was the height of the pad?

Front kcks are never higher than your sternum.
If it was higher, then it is what we call a high kick and the body physics/dynamics (how you perform the kick) change.

This is based on physics principals that the most power you can transmit into an object is at a 90 degree angle.


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## Lynne (Jul 25, 2007)

DArnold said:


> What was the height of the pad?
> 
> Front kcks are never higher than your sternum.
> If it was higher, then it is what we call a high kick and the body physics/dynamics (how you perform the kick) change.
> ...


Hi DArnold,

The pads were just about the level of my sternum, sometimes they might have dropped down to my solar plexus level.  That's why I couldn't pull my toes back far enough to strike the bottom of the pad with the ball of my foot.  (Unless that's a flexibility problem.) At least next time I'll know to ask my partner to rotate the pads just a little.

You spoke of the most power one can transmit is at an 90 degree angle.  There wasn't much power I could transmit to the pads hld the way they were (parallel to the floor versus 90 degrees to the floor - is that what you mean?).


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## DArnold (Jul 25, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Hi DArnold,
> The pads were just about the level of my sternum, sometimes they might have dropped down to my solar plexus level. That's why I couldn't pull my toes back far enough to strike the bottom of the pad with the ball of my foot. (Unless that's a flexibility problem.) At least next time I'll know to ask my partner to rotate the pads just a little.


 
What target would this assocate with if you actually had to fight someone? 
Bottom of the elbow?

Yes you have a flexibility problem since you can kick a pad like this...
So bend your toes back at a 90 degree angle or more to your foot...
But most of us humans can not.

(It's Wednesday and sarcasim is running amok)


Lynne said:


> You spoke of the most power one can transmit is at an 90 degree angle. There wasn't much power I could transmit to the pads hld the way they were (parallel to the floor versus 90 degrees to the floor - is that what you mean?).


 
Yes, this is a simple law of physics taught with vectors in physics 101.
(All MA's should be required to take physics 101)

There was not much power in what you did because there was no support from the body. 
Your hips are your center of mass and where all your power comes from. Your hips are supported by bracing yourself against the earth (How your legs connect with the ground - cause the ground is big, no, I mean really big )

So when beginners throw the kick they usually swing their leg foreward *and then the knee which is the piviot joint usually stops *(major important point, stopping the knee is the problem) and the kick goes straight up. Now 9 out of ten times when people kick like this they don't transfer energy from the body motion to the leg. - like snapping a towel.
Therefore not much power as you are only using your calf muscle only.

Targets like groin, pelvis, liver, spleen, sternum... are vertical, not horizontal. And the most power you can transmit is if the ball of your foot travels into the target at a 90 degree angle (parallel to the ground).
To prove this, just go hit a heavy bag with your front kick and yoú'll get the point.

So in a front kick you need to raise the tool (ball of foot) to the height of the target. This means that the knee will be higher than the target (this is a lot of leg work which usually only a good instructor will force you to do). Then as you kick the knee drops down. So if done right it will feel like you are kicking down.

Another way to look at it is:
What if you could go into a dark room with a black light and paint the ball of your foot white. Then watch how it moves. The only way for it to go out is if the knee moves. That is what makes the kick go straight into the target.

Now remember the base?
When you hit something heavy like a heavy bag the supporting leg must be angled toward the target. If not you go flying.
When hitting a pad, not so big a deal.

Spend as much time as you can practicing the first four basic kicks.

Front, side, turning, back.

As how well you can do these will determine the rest of your career.
All other kicks are a variation of these.

There is much, much more than this but it is a good start.
Contact me in the future after you've worked on it.
Saludo,


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## zDom (Jul 26, 2007)

Great post, DArnold.

Would have rep'd ya for it but was unable to do so again yet.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 26, 2007)

One of the things that I have my students do when they first learn the front kick is to walk on their tip toes.  That simple act forces the toes back and helps the student understand the striking surface that needs to be used.  If you want to work on the flexibility for front kick, that little exercise helps for that too.


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## agemechanic03 (Jul 26, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> One of the things that I have my students do when they first learn the front kick is to walk on their tip toes. That simple act forces the toes back and helps the student understand the striking surface that needs to be used. If you want to work on the flexibility for front kick, that little exercise helps for that too.


 
I like...I will have to start trying this next week when I get to go back to class. Thanks for the lil tip. By the way, do you have like a certain amount of time or reps for this exercise??


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## Makalakumu (Jul 26, 2007)

The exercise is based mostly off of body awareness.  However, I think that you could probably repeat it as much as you need to until you start seeing results with your front kicks.  I would suggest doing it before and after you do a set of kicks.


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## FieldDiscipline (Jul 26, 2007)

Hmm... A cunning plan.  I too will borrow this tactic.  Thank you very much!


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## bluemtn (Jul 26, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> One of the things that I have my students do when they first learn the front kick is to walk on their tip toes. That simple act forces the toes back and helps the student understand the striking surface that needs to be used. If you want to work on the flexibility for front kick, that little exercise helps for that too.


 

A great idea!  Another thing i've seen, is "kicking" at the ground with the toes pulled back...


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## Sapper6 (Jul 26, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> One of the things that I have my students do when they first learn the front kick is to walk on their tip toes. That simple act forces the toes back and helps the student understand the striking surface that needs to be used. If you want to work on the flexibility for front kick, that little exercise helps for that too.


 
good idea!


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## Lynne (Jul 28, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> One of the things that I have my students do when they first learn the front kick is to walk on their tip toes. That simple act forces the toes back and helps the student understand the striking surface that needs to be used. If you want to work on the flexibility for front kick, that little exercise helps for that too.


Thank you...something else to add to my repertoire   Anything to help!


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## Lynne (Jul 28, 2007)

DArnold said:


> What target would this assocate with if you actually had to fight someone?
> Bottom of the elbow?
> 
> Yes you have a flexibility problem since you can kick a pad like this...
> ...


 
Thank you very much, DArnold.  I will try some of these techniques.  Thanks for taking the time to suggest them  Very much appreciated.


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