# Airsoft Guns



## Samurai (Feb 6, 2004)

Anyone use Airsoft pistols of rifles for GUN DISARMING practice?  I bought one once and it was nothing but a cheap plastic toy.

I would really like something that can hold up to being dropped a few times a training session.

If you have any make/models or links to something you use, I would like that as well.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays


----------



## Akula (Feb 6, 2004)

Airsoft guns won't really stand up to that kind of treatment.  They are designed for basic shooting practice, and some wargame simulations ( the durable ones start costing the same as a real firearm ). 

You might want to look at guns that were designed for the purpose you asked for.  I found a web page that shows several items at http://www.rstacticalgear.com/cat_red.cfm 
I've not ordered from this company, so I can't say anything about them, however, this page, and the ones following it  show a nice selection of what is available for disarming practice.

Going back to Airsoft really quick, they can be broken down into several catergories.  The low end are spring powered guns, which need to be cocked before each shot.  Next up are the gas powered and give you more velocity and accuracy.  At the top end are the electrics which run off a battery pack, and many come in a full auto version.  If you want to incorporate shooting into movement exercises these can be useful, (personal opinion) as you can shoot plastic bbs at a target, and get feedback about your aim, not a guess.


----------



## dearnis.com (Feb 6, 2004)

High end airsoft guns make decent scenario simulators, but for straight disarming look at ASP's RedGuns; Shomer-tec offers a similar product, molded in blue, for slightly less.  Also check I&I sports, they offer 1:1 scale rubber replicas of various guns from time to time for about $5.  No moving parts, but aslo nothing to break during drills.


----------



## Phil Elmore (Feb 6, 2004)

I have one of the yellow rubber "Beretta 92Fs" from I&I -- it's like a big pencil eraser in the shape of a gun (though not flexible like an eraser) and would hold up just fine to gun disarm training.  For a tough, very accurate looking training pistol (or rifle or shotgun) you cannot do better than Ring's Blue Guns --

http://www.blueguns.com

When I release the next issue of _The Martialist_ it will include a review of Ring's Colt M4 Carbine (a full sized rifle in blue plastic, no lie!) and Glock 17 pistol simulators.  Be warned, though -- the Blue Guns and the Asp Red Guns are not cheap.


----------



## mandirigma (Feb 6, 2004)

Some thoughts:

a)On plastic guns, smooth is good.  Stay away from S&W, Berretta, etc. that have many edges.  Get a nice smooth glock mock-up that won't tear up your hands after many reps of forceful disarming.  If you have a clunky gun with edges you can dremel them off usually.

It's nice to have your plastic match your carry gun so you can draw, etc., but not essential.

If you're good with wood, just make one (but watch for splinters).

b)Buy a rubber band gun.  Some are realistic enough.  Have your partner try and shoot you during the disarm scenario.  This is very helpful while practicing your verbal tape loops and waiting for him to speak, for example, so you can try your disarm.

c) Just have your partner yell "BANG!" when you start to effect your disarm.  Not as good, certainly, as simunitions, airsoft, or even rubber bands, but gives you an idea of getting off the line of force.

Just some thoughts.  Fun thread.

Be safe!


----------



## Cryozombie (Feb 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *but for straight disarming look at ASP's RedGuns;  *



Thats what we use.


----------



## Phil Elmore (Feb 7, 2004)

I've read comments online to the effect that those who've used both Blue Guns and Red Guns liked the Blues better, but I suspect either would make a good and long-lasting training tool.  Ring's was kind enough to send me samples to evaluate, however, so I'm more inclined to go with them.


----------



## Samurai (Feb 10, 2004)

Thank you for the many replies.

I might go with the rubberband gun idea now until the budget gets to the BLUE GUN level.

Thanks again,
Jeremy Bays


----------



## Phil Elmore (Feb 10, 2004)

You could easily afford one of those yellow hard rubber Berettas.  It's not as good as Blue Gun or a Red Gun, but it's more realistic than a wooden rubber band gun in terms of proportions.


----------



## loki09789 (Mar 9, 2004)

I know this is an old thread but what are you looking to gain from Air soft gun use vs. Red/Blue gun type of use for disarm training?


----------



## mandirigma (Mar 10, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> ...what are you looking to gain from Air soft gun use vs. Red/Blue gun type of use for disarm training?



Perhaps the biggest advantage:  With anything that actually projects an object, we can train being held at gunpoint and avoiding the projectile as we effect our disarm.  This gives us a more realistic impression of getting off the line of force, how fast/when to react, the importance of distraction, etc.  Since the BG will probably have poor gun handling skills, he will probably have his finger wrapped around the trigger as he points the gun at us.  Thus even if he doesn't try to shoot us on purpose, we should resign ourselves that he'll probably have an accidental discharge (e.g. startle response or interlimb interaction) when we begin our disarm.  

Something that shoots, e.g., airsoft, helps us train with something actually coming out of the gun.  Coupled with good "acting" and intent from your training partners, airsoft/simunitions have taught us much about the realities of pistol disarm scenarios.  Any technique must have getting off the line of force as the very first step.  Anything else and you'll most likely get hit (which is considered poor form   ).


Take care. :asian:


----------



## loki09789 (Mar 10, 2004)

mandirigma said:
			
		

> Since the BG will probably have poor gun handling skills, he will probably have his finger wrapped around the trigger as he points the gun at us.
> 
> This is a dangerous assumption/mentallity to train with.  Assuming a lack of good weapon skill in this case is like saying that street thugs don't have boxing/fighting/martial arts training when preparing empty hand/non ballistic weapon responses.
> 
> ...



I agree with the advantages of training with a projectile throwing sim. gun, but is it cost effective?  There are a lot of issues like money, safety... that have to come into play.  I have heard people using starter's pistols as a substitute because of durability as well as the actual report of the weapon - much like training police horses/dogs.

I would hate to lay out a good chunk of change on a sim. gun or an air soft only to have it break in short order and be in need of replacing, when I could get a red/blue gun and have it last a lot longer, or the starter pistol (with gloves and hearing protection) for the durability and acclimitization of the weapon report.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 10, 2004)

Yup, getting shot by one of the airsoft pistols changes your point of view. I sell them in my school and use them in my classes. I think that are great tools for learning!


----------



## loki09789 (Mar 10, 2004)

How much of any training dealing with wrestling with a gunman does anyone focus on simply redirecting the muzzle vs. firing sequence interruption?


----------



## Samurai (Mar 22, 2004)

Mr Martin,

As I was the creator of this thread I will answer your question...

I was looking for more realism in a training weapon then the current Wooden pistol cut out we use now.  I saw the Airsoft on Ebay on thought that might be the thing to try.  I purchased a 9mm Glock pistol and was upset to see that I got a plastic piece of junk that would not last through one good disarm.
I was looking for recommendations on better models or other training gear to try.

Thanks again,
Jeremy Bays


----------



## loki09789 (Mar 23, 2004)

Samurai said:
			
		

> Mr Martin,
> 
> As I was the creator of this thread I will answer your question...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply to the question.  I guess what I am asking is what type of gun disarming techniques do you train?  If it is the general type where you focus on redirecting the muzzle and working the trigger guard against the shooter's finger, red gun/blue trainers would be fine.  

If you are working with an instructor who is also teaching the mechanical firing cycle of certain weapons and your disarms are also focusing on dysfunctioning/interrupting the firing cycle then a more realistic/air soft may be the way to go.  The cost of the solidly built airsofts is as much as a real gun, so you have to decide if it is worth the expense on your own terms.

For me, the feedback between role players (shooter/defender) can compensate for a lack of a firing weapon.  During the post drill discussion, let the 'shooter' tell you what was working and what wasn't.  Of course even an air soft won't prepare you for the audible shock/stun of a weapon that has been fired.  For that I made the starter's pistol suggestion.


----------

