# teaching with belts



## goingd (Jun 4, 2009)

One day I hope to teach martial arts part time either out of a small school, or my house or whatever. I will teach Taekwondo formally and promote accordingly. I have no real rank in Hapkido but I have plenty to teach.

Do you think that people who want to learn Hapkido will come to learn, even when I am not promoting them? (lol, provided I actually have something worthwhile to teach)

Just curious,
Thanks ^~^


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## MBuzzy (Jun 4, 2009)

I think that your biggest problem will be simply validity.  Many people off the street like to see that black belt and certification.  It somehow adds credibility to you and what you are saying.


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## goingd (Jun 4, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> I think that your biggest problem will be simply validity.  Many people off the street like to see that black belt and certification.  It somehow adds credibility to you and what you are saying.


That is a very good point. I honestly don't even know my "ever so important" lineage. Nonetheless, Hapkido is Hapkido.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 4, 2009)

goingd said:


> One day I hope to teach martial arts part time either out of a small school, or my house or whatever. I will teach Taekwondo formally and promote accordingly. I have no real rank in Hapkido but I have plenty to teach.
> 
> Do you think that people who want to learn Hapkido will come to learn, even when I am not promoting them? (lol, provided I actually have something worthwhile to teach)
> 
> ...


 
FWIW, Gen. Choi, with the help of Grand Master Chung, Kee Tae (who was, IIRC, a 6th dan under Choi, Young Sul) incorporated many hapkido techniques into the ITF Ho Sin Sul syllabus. The ITF doesn't issue rank in hapkido, but many good instructors include break falls, sweeps, throws, joint locks, escapes from grabs, etc. in their teachings. You could just follow a similar path one which, in some ways, has quite a precedent.

Me personally, I wouldn't teach an art that I didn't hold formal rank in unless I made that fact abundantly clear. 

Pax,

Chris


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## goingd (Jun 4, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> FWIW, Gen. Choi, with the help of Grand Master Chung, Kee Tae (who was, IIRC, a 6th dan under Choi, Young Sul) incorporated many hapkido techniques into the ITF Ho Sin Sul syllabus. The ITF doesn't issue rank in hapkido, but many good instructors include break falls, sweeps, throws, joint locks, escapes from grabs, etc. in their teachings. You could just follow a similar path one which, in some ways, has quite a precedent.
> 
> Me personally, I wouldn't teach an art that I didn't hold formal rank in unless I made that fact abundantly clear.
> 
> ...


I have put a lot of thought into incorporating Hapkido into my Taekwondo curriculum. My problem is though, I do not want Taekwondo to stop being Taekwondo. I'd like the Taekwondo class to focus on Taekwondo material.

I absolutely plan to be blatently honest about my lack of Hapkido rank. If a piece of paper is a problem for some people they are certainly more than welcome to ask me for a demonstration.


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## dortiz (Jun 5, 2009)

"Do you think that people who want to learn Hapkido will come to learn, even when I am not promoting them?"

Sure. Buts thats not the question here. The real question is can you really teach them without having earned the rank. Trust me even 1st Dan in Hapkido only begins to scratch the surface.
The answer very well could be yes. Maybe you have trained with various folks and yet not ranked but I would suggest this. Make sure that someone who is ranked evaluates what you want to teach and then you know its Kosher.
Don't be that TKD guy trying to teach some HKD that everyone laughs at.

Dave O.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2009)

Many people hold legitimate teaching rank in one art, and teach that art as their primary program. Often people will have some level of experience with another art, even tho they may hold little or no rank. Yet they find reasonable ways to bring elements of this other experience into the program that they are teaching. Nothing wrong with that.

Just be honest about it with your students.


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## dancingalone (Jun 5, 2009)

goingd said:


> One day I hope to teach martial arts part time either out of a small school, or my house or whatever. I will teach Taekwondo formally and promote accordingly. I have no real rank in Hapkido but I have plenty to teach.
> 
> Do you think that people who want to learn Hapkido will come to learn, even when I am not promoting them? (lol, provided I actually have something worthwhile to teach)
> 
> ...



I think it is one thing to teach a few techniques learned from hapkido.  That certainly seems do-able and fine.  However, can you honestly say you are qualified to teach hapkido given it's an entirely a full martial art on it's own merits?  I.E. you are a hapkidoist in addition to doing taekwondo, and not just a tkd guy who has learned some hapkido?  

If you can, then more power to you.  I think the suggestion of asking a hapkido teacher to benchmark your skills might be a good one.


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## Kumbajah (Jun 5, 2009)

goingd said:


> One day I hope to teach martial arts part time either out of a small school, or my house or whatever. I will teach Taekwondo formally and promote accordingly. I have no real rank in Hapkido but I have plenty to teach.
> 
> Do you think that people who want to learn Hapkido will come to learn, even when I am not promoting them? (lol, provided I actually have something worthwhile to teach)
> 
> ...



"Never Get a Steak at a Seafood Restaurant" - My Dad

Basically go with the speciality of the house (TKD) not the addition which isn't their strong suit. (HKD) 

I don't know why someone would go to a TKD studio to learn Hapkido with the exception, that there isn't any other Hapkido instruction around. In that case you are the best Hapkido instructor in town   But in that case one would be better off learning another art ( JJ, AKD or TKD) imo.

P.S. I should add that "add on" Hapkido is a pet peeve of mine - It is an art in it's own right and should be studied as one - add on HKD = craptastic HKD in my experience.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 5, 2009)

goingd said:


> I have put a lot of thought into incorporating Hapkido into my Taekwondo curriculum. My problem is though, I do not want Taekwondo to stop being Taekwondo. I'd like the Taekwondo class to focus on Taekwondo material.


 
Oh, I quite agree. My only point was that, at least in ITF Taekwon-Do, quite a few hapkido techniques have been incorporated into the syllabus already. It's not full blown hapkido, of course, but I think the idea that many people have of Taekwon-Do being simply kicking with a few punches thrown in is incorrect.



> I absolutely plan to be blatently honest about my lack of Hapkido rank. If a piece of paper is a problem for some people they are certainly more than welcome to ask me for a demonstration.


 
This is the way to go.

Pax,

Chris


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## goingd (Jun 6, 2009)

I found many of these posts very interesting. I guess I should have been more clear - I have no formal or "official" Hapkido rank of any kind, but I have almost just as much formal Hapkido training as I do in Taekwondo. In fact, at times I would spend more hours and put forth more effort into Hapkido class than in Taekwondo. What I found most interesting is that since people see that I have no Hapkido rank they automatically assume my Hapkido is second to my Taekwondo. I suppose that is a matter of opinion, and of course I won't know myself until I have to use either one on the streets. These days I only have the option to occasionally train with Hapkido instructors, but I practice every day (yes, with a partner ^-^)

I suppose my question was more about peoples' ambitions. Assuming my Hapkido is above adequate, do you think students would stay away because they know they are not going to get a black belt or a pretty certificate "in the end"?

Sorry for the confusion.

PS., I'm not trying to come off as cocky and I'm not claiming to be a great Hapkidoist or anything like that. In fact, I did plan on trying to have my Hapkido evaluated by a notable master at some point, if one would allow it.

Thanks ^~^


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## Kumbajah (Jun 6, 2009)

goingd said:


> I found many of these posts very interesting. I guess I should have been more clear - I have no formal or "official" Hapkido rank of any kind, but I have almost just as much formal Hapkido training as I do in Taekwondo. In fact, at times I would spend more hours and put forth more effort into Hapkido class than in Taekwondo. What I found most interesting is that since people see that I have no Hapkido rank they automatically assume my Hapkido is second to my Taekwondo. I suppose that is a matter of opinion, and of course I won't know myself until I have to use either one on the streets. These days I only have the option to occasionally train with Hapkido instructors, but I practice every day (yes, with a partner ^-^)
> 
> I suppose my question was more about peoples' ambitions. Assuming my Hapkido is above adequate, do you think students would stay away because they know they are not going to get a black belt or a pretty certificate "in the end"?
> 
> ...



It seems to me that with this statement 



			
				goingd said:
			
		

> One day I hope to teach martial arts part time either out of a small school, or my house or whatever. I will teach Taekwondo formally and promote accordingly. I have no real rank in Hapkido but I have plenty to teach.



You have prioritized (in your mind) the importance of the two arts. One deserves formal training and rank and the other is "free-form". So regardless of the level of skill that you think that you may have, you aren't giving HKD the same regard that you give TKD. So people may value your knowledge but they wouldn't be learning the Art of Hapkido but rather TKD and some "cool tricks" that you have gleaned from Hapkido.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 6, 2009)

My opinion of the general public (based on experience) is that people won't be interested if there is no rank or certification involved.  The general public has many reasons for joining Martial Arts, but with no obvious indication of progress and verification of skill, they will probably find somewhere else.

Personally, I'm in it to learn, but I'm not the guy off the street, I'm in it to learn.  But I would still be very concerned about the no official rank deal.  For me, it is an issue of practicality.  I'm in the military, so I move every 2-3 years.  With no rank, I can't transfer and most schools make you start over.  If you walk into a school without even a certificate, you have NO chance to learning new things.


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## terryl965 (Jun 6, 2009)

Well here is my take on the whole thing issue rank in TKD and add to your TKD with the Hapkido but tell people up front you have knowledge in it but have never formally taken any rank in that particular art. This way the average Joe knows up front and can make a logical decission.


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## dancingalone (Jun 6, 2009)

goingd said:


> I found many of these posts very interesting. I guess I should have been more clear - I have no formal or "official" Hapkido rank of any kind, but I have almost just as much formal Hapkido training as I do in Taekwondo. In fact, at times I would spend more hours and put forth more effort into Hapkido class than in Taekwondo. What I found most interesting is that since people see that I have no Hapkido rank they automatically assume my Hapkido is second to my Taekwondo. I suppose that is a matter of opinion, and of course I won't know myself until I have to use either one on the streets. These days I only have the option to occasionally train with Hapkido instructors, but I practice every day (yes, with a partner ^-^)



Yes, given the way you worded things earlier, I definitely got the impression your hapkido was of the value-added taekwondo type.

Please humor me, but given that hapkido is a relatively new art, all of the instructors I know of give out dan ranks.  How is it possible you never earned ranking in hapkido but you have sufficient knowledge and skill to teach others?  Did you just practice informally with some partners?

It would seem to me that it's actually quite difficult to study hapkido WITHOUT earning some paper along the way, since it's completely unlike a koryu Japanese jujutsu system in this respect.



> I suppose my question was more about peoples' ambitions. Assuming my Hapkido is above adequate, do you think students would stay away because they know they are not going to get a black belt or a pretty certificate "in the end"?



I think it would hurt you if you're trying to run a commercial school to earn some revenue and possibly even try to make a real living at this.  Sure, you'll have TKD to fall back on and even be a mainstay, but I think the public is used to a belt model at this point.

I would never tell anyone to chase paper for the pure sake of it, but it seems like you might have legitimate reasons for needing it.  Why not just invest some time and resources into gaining a black belt with an organization that is open to 'ronin' type warriors like yourself?  I have heard good things about Rudy Timmerman's group as well as JR West's.

Good luck!


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## goingd (Jun 7, 2009)

Wow, I must have really given the wrong impression... Sorry about that.

@ Kumbajah: My Hapkido classes would be like any other Hapkido class, with a set curriculum and I would even teach beyond that. It's not like I would really be choosing to not test students for rank, it's more like I have no choice - hence, my lack of rank.

@ MBuzzy: That is kind of what I was thinking - I just wanted outside opinions. Thanks for answering the question directly.

@ terryl965: Again, thanks for answering the original question directly.

@ dancingalone: Errrr... If I had studied informally with some partners I would not have said I've had formal training. My former master with whom I no longer associate myself was ranked as a fifth Dan in Hapkido (and Taekwondo) and he could certainly use it. In my years training under him he taught Hapkido formally but did not test students. The longer you trained and the more you practiced and got better the more advanced techniques he would teach... without a paper trail. Since then I have picked up extra ideas along the way from other practitioners of Hapkido, but my five or so years of formal training came from my original school. Humored?
... I'm not planning on trying to run a commercial school. "_One day I hope to teach martial arts part time either out of a small school, or my house or whatever._"
Regardless, thank you for your post and information. ^-^


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## Kumbajah (Jun 7, 2009)

goingd said:


> Wow, I must have really given the wrong impression... Sorry about that.
> 
> @ Kumbajah: My Hapkido classes would be like any other Hapkido class, with a set curriculum and I would even teach beyond that. It's not like I would really be choosing to not test students for rank, it's more like I have no choice - hence, my lack of rank.
> 
> (clip)... but my five or so years of formal training came from my original school.



If you had been in a Hapkido School after five years you most likely would only hold the rank of first dan. So to answer your original question - I wouldn't go to a first dan for instruction nor would I recommend anyone else to. It's just grasping the basics.


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## goingd (Jun 8, 2009)

Kumbajah said:


> If you had been in a Hapkido School after five years you most likely would only hold the rank of first dan. So to answer your original question - I wouldn't go to a first dan for instruction nor would I recommend anyone else to. It's just grasping the basics.


I was really just trying to ask a more general question, with the assumption in mind that the Hapkido being taught was blatantly good (not that I'm assuming there is anything "excellent" about my Hapkido).

The truth is I would not have even considered teaching a full Hapkido class without having further training to what I already have. My reason for asking in the first place was to get myself prepped for a what-if situation.

Thank you everyone for your responses. I should have worded the original question better so that everyone would not take things out of context, sorry 'bout that.

Take care all,
Greg L.


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## Kumbajah (Jun 8, 2009)

goingd said:


> I was really just trying to ask a more general question, with the assumption in mind that the Hapkido being taught was blatantly good (not that I'm assuming there is anything "excellent" about my Hapkido).
> 
> The truth is I would not have even considered teaching a full Hapkido class without having further training to what I already have. My reason for asking in the first place was to get myself prepped for a what-if situation.
> 
> ...



If you plan to get more instruction and you don't associate with your previous TKD/HKD instructor you would have to go to another HKD instructor which may be able (most likely) to offer you rank - so all of this is kind of an non issue - no?


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## goingd (Jun 8, 2009)

Kumbajah said:


> If you plan to get more instruction and you don't associate with your previous TKD/HKD instructor you would have to go to another HKD instructor which may be able (most likely) to offer you rank - so all of this is kind of an non issue - no?



*sigh* Yeah, sure, alright then... ? Let's just say this thread went way off, but that's my fault, lol. So thanks again everyone.


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