# Martial Arts Insurance? (accident and liability)



## cismab (Sep 20, 2020)

My school has always carried accident and liability insurance protection through the AAU. Recently one of the municipalities I teach in has informed me that the AAU coverage carried is not adequate to teach at their location.

I was curious, if you teach out of a rec center, church, community park, etc. (and not a commercial location) do you carry insurance and If so, can you recommend a good insurance company?

If you have a commercial store front location I'm going to assume you have to carry insurance per your lease... what company would you recommend?

Thank you in advance.


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## dvcochran (Sep 20, 2020)

cismab said:


> My school has always carried accident and liability insurance protection through the AAU. Recently one of the municipalities I teach in has informed me that the AAU coverage carried is not adequate to teach at their location.
> 
> I was curious, if you teach out of a rec center, church, community park, etc. (and not a commercial location) do you carry insurance and If so, can you recommend a good insurance company?
> 
> ...


I would think it is an easy check. Find out what the rec center is looking for; limits is the most common way of looking at insurance. Auto liability coverage limits are typically written out as three numbers like 25/50/25. That means you have a $25,000 limit per person for Bodily Injury in an accident, a $50,000 total limit per accident for Bodily Injury, and a $25,000 limit per accident for Property Damage. These numbers are minimums for several states. Home owners/building coverage limits are substantially higher because there is more physical property involved. We carry 50/100/300. The last number is higher for me because I own the property. I would think something like 25/50/100 would suffice but it totally depends on what the rec center says. Remember, you are sharing liability. 
FWIW, I have seen this ploy when a renter is wanting someone out for various reasons. It should be in the contract.


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## cismab (Sep 20, 2020)

Thank you. Let me clarify, I have always carried AAU coverage as an option. This is the first time the city if mandating insurance on anyone who teaches out of their facilities. Which pretty much includes anyone teaching from chess instructors, sports, to robotics.

\What company do you use? I've been doing some research today and martial arts insurance is different than just business insurance and appears that most contact like sparring or mat work (not that we are doing ANY with covid 19 right now) is excluded from coverage.


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## dvcochran (Sep 20, 2020)

cismab said:


> Thank you. Let me clarify, I have always carried AAU coverage as an option. This is the first time the city if mandating insurance on anyone who teaches out of their facilities. Which pretty much includes anyone teaching from chess instructors, sports, to robotics.
> 
> \What company do you use? I've been doing some research today and martial arts insurance is different than just business insurance and appears that most contact like sparring or mat work (not that we are doing ANY with covid 19 right now) is excluded from coverage.


I use State Farm and Next. I have had claims with both and have been very satisfied.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 6, 2022)

luperciohungary said:


> But how do I find out whether the school I attend has that? I want to know that, in case of an accident, I would get paid by an insurance company and not by someone who might not even have enough money to pay for my cure. I think it’s a reasonable thing to check before the first physical education class.
> I don’t know how difficult it is for a school to get such insurance, but it seems reasonable and even mandatory to have good insurance to ensure the student is safe. I know there is Financial Planning For Doctors, and maybe there is also financial planning for schools that would help them to get the best insurance possible and not risk the lives of their students.


Most schools will have you sign some form of liability waiver. When they bring that out, that's the time to ask how injuries would be handled at that school. If not, you can always just directly ask before you start.

From my understanding, a lot of schools would not cover them though unless they're directly responsible. Something to keep in mind is: Would you ask this before signing up for an intramural basketball club, and expect them to cover any injuries?

The reason I say that, is that basketball (along with other sports) have a much higher injury rate (resulting in doctor/hospital visits) then martial arts, from what I recall. I did a super quick google search to confirm, and martial arts, or boxing/wrestling (as 'sports') don't even make the list a lot of most injury-ridden sports. In two that they were, according to this study which includes wrestling, Overtraining and Overuse Injuries Causes Burnout in a Young Athlete, Wrestling is below Football, basketball, soccer, baseball, softball and volleyball in terms of number of injuries (with almost 10% the number of football), and according to the insurance information institute: Facts + Statistics: Sports injuries | III, martial arts are below: Exercise, cycling, basketball, skateboards/scooters, ATVs/mopeds, football, playing on a playground, swimming, soccer, trampolines, baseball/softball, skating, golf, skiing/snowboarding, fishing, lacrosse, horseback riding, volleyball, and hockey in terms of ER visits. According to this Facts + Statistics: Sports injuries | III, they're in a similar place when you look at injury rate/per 100k.

Those were not cherry-picked, they were the first ones that I found that included a form of martial art in them.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 7, 2022)

luperciohungary said:


> But how do I find out whether the school I attend has that? I want to know that, in case of an accident, I would get paid by an insurance company and not by someone who might not even have enough money to pay for my cure. I think it’s a reasonable thing to check before the first physical education class.
> I don’t know how difficult it is for a school to get such insurance, but it seems reasonable and even mandatory to have good insurance to ensure the student is safe. I know there is Financial Planning For Doctors, and maybe there is also financial planning for schools that would help them to get the best insurance possible and not risk the lives of their students.


In most commercial school environments, you will sign a release of liability document and enter into a contract. Business liability insurance (for the school/owner) does not cover the participant from injuries during training such as a strain or sprain or even a broken bone is most instances. Liability insurance would come into play if you slipped and fell due to negligence on the part of the owner, or a ceiling tile fell and injured you. Or an injury from poor instruction or oversight. But this is quite hard to prove. 
There is injury coverage such as what an AAU athlete can get but they are two different things and on an individual level.   
To your direct question, simply ask for proof of insurance and specifically what it covers before signing up. Ask for examples of past claims and how they were handled.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 7, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> From my understanding, a lot of schools would not cover them though unless they're directly responsible. Something to keep in mind is: Would you ask this before signing up for an intramural basketball club, and expect them to cover any injuries?


in what way directly responsible? can you be a bit clearer on this. 
why would martial arts be any different to Basketball? If you train in say Judo & recieve a spnal injury who would pay?
if i played basketball & tripped over a line mark not aligned with the floor (due to wear & tear) who would pay for my broken nose? would the Tape that caused the injury be covered in the insurance? 





						Basketball Courts – A Creative Use for Floor Marking Tape – Safety Blog News
					

Floor marking tape can be used in many different places. Basketball courts are one place where you could easily use floor marking tape, for example.




					www.safetyblognews.com


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 7, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> in what way directly responsible? can you be a bit clearer on this.
> why would martial arts be any different to Basketball? If you train in say Judo & recieve a spnal injury who would pay?
> if i played basketball & tripped over a line mark not aligned with the floor (due to wear & tear) who would pay for my broken nose? would the Tape that caused the injury be covered in the insurance?
> 
> ...


To me, I wouldn't expect a dojo to pay unless another student (or instructor) actively caused the injury. So as an example w/o naming names, a friend of mine got hit with a wooden sword in his neck by another student, who was drilling before his own class on the side, without supervision. I would expect a school to pay for that. 
Versus if I threw a kick too high of my own accord, lost balance and fell, landing weirdly and hurting my hip. I personally wouldn't expect a school to pay for those medical bills, but if an instructor told me to continue throwing it higher and higher and that caused the issue, I would. Hope that makes sense. 

Regarding martial arts vs. basketball, it shouldn't be any different. That's my point. People often ask these questions before starting martial arts, but don't with basketball, even though it's much more likely that they'll get injured in basketball. So my question was more a general request for consistency-if you're concerned about it in MA, you should be concerned about it in other sports. Or if you're willing to accept the risk regardless of the sport, that should hold true for MA as well.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 7, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> To me, I wouldn't expect a dojo to pay unless another student (or instructor) actively caused the injury. So as an example w/o naming names, a friend of mine got hit with a wooden sword in his neck by another student, who was drilling before his own class on the side, without supervision. I would expect a school to pay for that.
> Versus if I threw a kick too high of my own accord, lost balance and fell, landing weirdly and hurting my hip. I personally wouldn't expect a school to pay for those medical bills, but if an instructor told me to continue throwing it higher and higher and that caused the issue, I would. Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Regarding martial arts vs. basketball, it shouldn't be any different. That's my point. People often ask these questions before starting martial arts, but don't with basketball, even though it's much more likely that they'll get injured in basketball. So my question was more a general request for consistency-if you're concerned about it in MA, you should be concerned about it in other sports. Or if you're willing to accept the risk regardless of the sport, that should hold true for MA as well.


OK thanks fair one.


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## WaterGal (Oct 11, 2022)

luperciohungary said:


> But how do I find out whether the school I attend has that? I want to know that, in case of an accident, I would get paid by an insurance company and not by someone who might not even have enough money to pay for my cure. I think it’s a reasonable thing to check before the first physical education class.
> I don’t know how difficult it is for a school to get such insurance, but it seems reasonable and even mandatory to have good insurance to ensure the student is safe. I know there is Financial Planning For Doctors, and maybe there is also financial planning for schools that would help them to get the best insurance possible and not risk the lives of their students.



In my experience, it's standard for commercial landlords to require the businesses that rent from them to carry a business liability policy with at least some minimum level of coverage. So if the school is in a shopping center, professional building, etc, they should have that. But if the school is in someone's garage or basement, they might not.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 11, 2022)

WaterGal said:


> In my experience, it's standard for commercial landlords to require the businesses that rent from them to carry a business liability policy with at least some minimum level of coverage. So if the school is in a shopping center, professional building, etc, they should have that. But if the school is in someone's garage or basement, they might not.


Business liability and General liability cover differently. 
Business covers legal expenses and injury of which you are at fault. Such as something falling from the ceiling (during regular business hours) or an injury outside the disclosed course of services (a stab wound in a TKD class for example). It does not extend to the building owner in a leasing relationship. 
General covers you against personal injury claims. The burden of proof is on the claimant. 
A landlord would likely require both levels of coverage in the states. They are usually wrapped up in one policy, but it is buyer beware.


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