# Between Brown & Black



## MartialArtsGuy (Jan 31, 2004)

Hi all

Id like to collect some opinions and factual info on the material between 3rd degree brown belt on through 1st degree black. 

I have been in that range for a short time now and I'm starting to think as I advance through kenpo, it leans more toward the conceptual side. I undertand the techniques have always been interchangable/flexible ideas and not "the answer for a particular instance" 

The techniques from yellow through green were more simplistic and even though were still ideas, i could see how one could react with the technique as written without too much "what-if". (sheild and hammer, clutching feathers, twirling sacrafice)

But now it seems as if the techniques are more giving you more tools and ideas and joining them end to end in a short dance. I have noticed that the foot work is a little more involved too. 

The techniques last so long that to use them in a real situation would demand that the situation have the exact same variables as in the ideal phase of the technique. (timing, relative position of you to your opponents, number of attackers....etc...)
Something not likely to happen. 

I do like the information in what I have seen so far, but I really think it is meant to be something you pick and choose from to meet the demands of the situation. I do think mainly of the initial moves at the start of the techniques will come out, but than after that its all formulation because of the high probability that the variables you ecounter will be different than those in the ideal form of the technique.

So anyway... what does everyone think of the material between brown and black. Any likes or dislikes, or info regarding anything.
Anything anyone thinks I should know. I'm interested in opinions and facts?


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> *Id like to collect some opinions and factual info on the material between 3rd degree brown belt on through 1st degree black. *



Depending upon which curriculum you follow (24,16,12) I consider 3rd brown about half way through the curriculum.  There you are learning tech.'s, forms, and the sets. This is your first goal. After attaining 1st black then you must go over and re-learn or start to truely understand AK to get adavanced degrees.:asian:


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## KenpoTess (Jan 31, 2004)

Hey Jason  did you mean 32,24,16 ?

*hands you a cuppa coffee


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *Hey Jason  did you mean 32,24,16 ? *



Yes,


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## MartialArtsGuy (Jan 31, 2004)

Sorry, I'm most familiar with the 24 system.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> *Sorry, I'm most familiar with the 24 system.
> *



It is what  is outlined in Ed Parker's  Infinite Insights Series at the time of Publishing.

:asian:


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## MartialArtsGuy (Jan 31, 2004)

huh? 

yes yes, that is what i am saying. im refering to the curriculum as outlined in Infinite Insights.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _*
> huh?   yes yes, that is what i am saying. im refering to the curriculum as outlined in Infinite Insights.
> *



That is the 24 Technique Ststem.

:asian:


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## MartialArtsGuy (Feb 2, 2004)

Mr. Conatser

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other. but yes I am training under the 24 tech per belt system if that helps you with my over all question listed in the initial post. 

This is open to anyone though.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _*
> 
> Mr. Conatser  Maybe we are misunderstanding each other. but yes I am training under the 24 tech per belt system if that helps you with my over all question listed in the initial post.
> *



Yes, but in an earlier post you stated you were NOT familiar with the 24 Technique System.   

I see you now know what that is....

thanks.

:asian:


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## MartialArtsGuy (Feb 2, 2004)

huh?
are you sure you got the right guy. i dont remember saying that. if i did it may have been a typo, or maybe i was drinking that night or something. As far as i know i have always trained the 24 tech system.

wow this is some real twilight zone stuff.

if you find the post please email it to me or something.
Thanks


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> *Sorry, I'm most familiar with the 24 system. *



No Typo......... lol
This looks like you.....   about 5 or 6 posts up at the top of this page......


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## MartialArtsGuy (Feb 2, 2004)

ok, i see what happend

I was saying "sorry" to jfarnsworth for not clarifying what system i train in my first post.

Than i went on to tell him what system i was most familiar with.

man if this wont fix it, than to hell with it.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _*
> ok, i see what happend
> *



I'm sure it's straight now.......LOL:rofl: 

:asian:


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## Thesemindz (Feb 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> * I'm starting to think as I advance through kenpo, it leans more toward the conceptual side. I undertand the techniques have always been interchangable/flexible ideas and not "the answer for a particular instance"
> 
> The techniques from yellow through green were more simplistic and even though were still ideas, i could see how one could react with the technique as written without too much "what-if". (sheild and hammer, clutching feathers, twirling sacrafice)
> ...





I think you're point has some merit. The two man techniques especially are very conceptual and depend greatly on ideal and robotic responses by the dummies to work "as is."  In general they teach strategies and maneuvers that can be applied to a dynamic situation, and their practice encourages the use of reverse motion, but they are not "the answer," techniques never are.

Other techniques on this list though, are complex manifestations of simple ideas. Glancing Spear, Circling Fans, Raining Lance, and Blinding Sacrifice all begin with effective defensive maneuvers. Once the initial attack is disrupted, they continue to teach important lessons about position and motion. 

There are some techniques on this list that are like catalogues of motion. Falling Falcon is one of these catalogue techniques. It teaches a series of methods that can be used to accomplish a single goal. Hooking Wings is an earlier example of this. This gives you the option of exercising a variety of responses in a similar situation. Performing the entire technique on one person, is probably not possible. Besides which, it would require a very sadistic mind set. If the opponent is still ready to go after you break his arm five times, you need to be breaking something else. 

All of these techniques contain short simple movements which can be adapted to a wide variety of situations. As I practice these techniques more and more I find short parrying patterns and footwork sequences bleed into my spontaneous more and more. 

You already mentioned the footwork, and you're right on. It is more complicated. It contains a huge amount of buckling and striking attacks with the legs. It helps to teach us to make the legs a weapon at all times, whether or not they leave the ground. 

In the end, these techniques are just like all the others. It's Stance Set 1 again and again. You compared them to dance, but I'd call them Short Forms. It's the application that makes all the difference and the techniques give us one possible interpretation of that. 

Techniques never happen as written. Not even Delayed Handsword. They work because you apply what you've practiced to the situation at hand. You never know, of all the possible physical responses an opponent could have to a technique, the ideal one probably has about as good a chance as most.

-Rob


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## Dominic Jones (Feb 3, 2004)

Looking to the future.  I believe that Mr Kevin Mills from England will have the greatest impact on my  (EPAK) Kenpo training over the next 10 years.

His dedication to Kenpo regulary involves travelling to far parts of the world (Japan-last week, America-this week, back to England the following week!).

Being a student of the arts, on behalf of the British Kenpo Karate Union, he is continually seeking excellent instruction, pushing his training to new levels.  As an excellent instructor he is pulling kenpo students up to new levels as well.

You might not know his name, but if you ever have the chance to train with him.  I recommend it, you won`t be disappointed. 

Cheers Dominic
PS.  The BKKU in the UK, founded by GM Bob Rose, has had the greatest impact on my  (EPAK) Kenpo training so far. :asian: 

PPS.  Isn`t it great that there are so many  different people who will have a great impact on EPAK in the future.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 3, 2004)

ttt


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## MartialArtsGuy (Feb 5, 2004)

Thesemindz

Thanks for the good reply.


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## TwistofFat (May 4, 2004)

Folks I am new to this site (and the computer do hicky) but have been reading and reading...awesome stuff.
I have been in 'limbo' as a 1st brown for years.  I lost my first instructor to booze, moved, got ripped off, found a 4th in Charlotte, NC who got his belt "from the old man" (no disrespect on my part) that knew far less than I did.  Anyway, my point to all of this is when I found a good teacher (200 miles away, once  a week) and learned Forms 4 and 5 the techniques and position recognition began to click.  The timing and settling with the strikes, leg work timing, etc.  made me go back and reexamine yellow-green with a renewed interest and sense of application.  It has taken me just under 10 years after my 3rd brown to be ready to test for my bb (almost) and boy am I glad I stuck with it.  

Best Regards- Glenn


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## Michael Billings (May 5, 2004)

Welcome to MartialTalk.  

 I like the effort you have put into your training, and committment it has taken to reach the level you have.  It is great to see someone from the old school, willing to take the extra step by travelling, and recognize that it is important to have a good teacher.  Not everyone can tell the good from the bad, separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to instructors.  Glad you found a "good one".

 -Michael


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## Storm (May 27, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Hey Jason  did you mean 32,24,16 ?
> 
> *hands you a cuppa coffee



I am only familiar to the 24 - Im interested to know more about the 32, where would I find this info.

Thanks


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## Michael Billings (May 30, 2004)

Storm said:
			
		

> I am only familiar to the 24 - Im interested to know more about the 32, where would I find this info.
> 
> Thanks


 You can look at them on my Kenpo-Texas.com web site.  http://kenpo-texas.com/techref.html#32%20Tech

 Scroll up for the 24 and 16 based curriculums.

 -Michael


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## Storm (Jun 1, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> You can look at them on my Kenpo-Texas.com web site.  http://kenpo-texas.com/techref.html#32%20Tech
> Scroll up for the 24 and 16 based curriculums.
> 
> -Michael



Thank you for that.  Had a look I thought there might have been more techniques than what I was learning (hate to think I was missing out on anything) but they are just in different orders for each belt.  Must admit though - I cant rmember having seen Intellectual Departure in our Yellow belt syllabus.


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## Michael Billings (Jun 2, 2004)

There are 2 additional techniqes I added from the earlier charts (as have others),  ... and because I like to teach and/or use them sparring.   Intellectual Departure for sparring, and how to block a kick while hands are down, as verses Deflecting Hammer for when hands are up.  At Purple I teach Spreading Branch just to add another rear bear hug arms pinned, and because I like the principles utilized to be introduced at this level.

 -Michael


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## Storm (Jun 2, 2004)

Thank you for the info.  I have just downloaded both techniques and after having looked through Intellectual Departure, it looks very familiar.  Im sure we have been through this one but it just wasnt on the syllabus or given a name. Nice move.  As for Spreading Branch unsure about this one so will ask my Instructors to run through it with me.  OK to read and work through it but I am a  more visual learner so need to see it before I can fully relate to it.

Cheers


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## TwistofFat (Jun 9, 2004)

Michael,

When was Intellectual Departure and Spreading the Branch moved from Yellow? (I learned the system with extensions (24), and then lately have seen versions which spreads out the techs through BB).  Is Aggressive Twins still taught in Yellow?
It seems that the extensions are not taught much (what would Dance of Death be without the Dance?).

Thanks - Glenn.


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## Storm (Jun 9, 2004)

TwistofFat said:
			
		

> Is Aggressive Twins still taught in Yellow?
> 
> It seems that the extensions are not taught much (what would Dance of Death be without the Dance?).
> Thanks - Glenn.



Im not familiar with agressive twins is dstructive twins the same?

Extensions are still taught.  The base moves are taught to 2nd brown and at 3rd Degree brown we start on Orange extensions then upwards from there.


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## TwistofFat (Jun 10, 2004)

Storm,

Not exactly, while they are a similar attack [front two hand choke (lapel), pull-in], Aggressive Twins is more similar to Delayed Sword and Intellectual departure (as it was a yellow in Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights #5) than DT's (Green).  

The Technique from my notes is:

*Attack: The opponent approaches you from the front and attempts to deliver a two-hand push towards your chest.* 

*Step-by-Step:* 


*From a natural stance, step your left foot back into a right neutral bow (**12:00**) as you execute a right thrusting inward block.* 
*Execute a right side snap kick to the opponent's left knee joint and plant your right foot back to its point-of-origin. Immediately follow-up with a left step-thru front kick to his upper chest or face, and plant your foot into a left neutral bow facing the opponent. *
http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/Images/atwins.gif (Thanks to Brian Baker@ Brian's Kenpo Page)
I hope this helps (and I think is close to being correct).

Glenn.


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