# When training someone ...



## suicide (Feb 7, 2009)

i ve been training some kid in kenpo that bugged me for about six months to show em some self defense and he gots everything he needs to past a orange belt test but its only been 2 months - is that to soon to test him or should i make him wait for a minute - he learned everything quick because its only him and because hes the only person i train he writes everything down hits hard and moves quick and shows me hes focused - i dont have a school we work out in my backyard wensdays and saturdays and the rest of the week he trains at his home - to me he seems ready and you could tell hes very hungry for this knowledge - i know its on me with what i do with my student - i was just wondering if i could get some opinions from some of you more experienced teachers out there - some quick feed back on this matter thanks !


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## suicide (Feb 7, 2009)

its been 2 months from the time he got his yellow belt to now.


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## jarrod (Feb 8, 2009)

if he's put 3months worth of work into 2 months time, he's ready.  imo, time in grade is a guideline & not a law.  i have no problem promoting someone ahead of schedule so long as their skills & maturity as martial artists are up to par.  

i'm not a kenpo guy though, just giving you my $.02.

jf


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## Danjo (Feb 8, 2009)

Depends on whether you test based soley on whether they have learned the material. If so, then test him. If there are other considerations, i.e., character, self control, patience etc., then see how serious he is by making him wait a bit. If he was bugging like you say, see if it was more than a passing fancy.

Either way, it's an orange belt, so no big pressure. I think Green belt is the rank where you have to start really weighing things since it's the first color that tends to be universally recognized. To me a green belt should really be able to fight and have solid basics.


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## jarrod (Feb 8, 2009)

Danjo said:


> To me a green belt should really be able to fight and have solid basics.


 
not to sidetrack the topic danjo, but could you elaborate on this a little?  i know rank structure & requirements vary according to style.  my main styles give shodans for having the basics.  if you mean that a green belt should be moving & looking like a martial artist at that point, i agree.

thanks,

jf


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## Twin Fist (Feb 8, 2009)

In kaju, green is right before brown, so green would be "high intermediate" rank

I think that if they are ready, they are ready. time doesnt matter.

by ready that means:
1-knows the material well enough for that level
2-UNDERSTANDS the material well enough for that level
3- general skill level right for that level.


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## Danjo (Feb 8, 2009)

jarrod said:


> not to sidetrack the topic danjo, but could you elaborate on this a little? i know rank structure & requirements vary according to style. my main styles give shodans for having the basics. if you mean that a green belt should be moving & looking like a martial artist at that point, i agree.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> jf


 
Like Twinfist said above, Green belt is intermediate in rank. It's a distinct step up from the earlier ranks of white, purple, blue etc. In fact, in some systems those earlier colors are merely to distinguish between various levels of white belt. So green represents a distinct step in one's growth as a martial artist. When I say that they need to have solid basics at that level, I am not saying that they have to have the expertise of a black belt in terms of their understanding, nor the refinement in terms of their movement and power. But they need to be doing a proper horse stance, forward stance, cat stance etc. They need to be doing crisp recognizable blocks and putting the proper snap into their punches and kicks. In other words, they need to look like they're starting to own the material, and not just trying to remember the sequences of the moves.

As to the fighting: to me a greenbelt ought to know how to fight.


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## just2kicku (Feb 8, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Like Twinfist said above, Green belt is intermediate in rank. It's a distinct step up from the earlier ranks of white, purple, blue etc. In fact, in some systems those earlier colors are merely to distinguish between various levels of white belt. So green represents a distinct step in one's growth as a martial artist. When I say that they need to have solid basics at that level, I am not saying that they have to have the expertise of a black belt in terms of their understanding, nor the refinement in terms of their movement and power. But they need to be doing a proper horse stance, forward stance, cat stance etc. They need to be doing crisp recognizable blocks and putting the proper snap into their punches and kicks. In other words, they need to look like they're starting to own the material, and not just trying to remember the sequences of the moves.
> 
> As to the fighting: to me a greenbelt ought to know how to fight.


 

If I may add to that Danjo, Green is the refining stage. From there on there's really not that much more material till you get to BB. This is the level where like Dan said "You own the material, not just remember the material", but this is also the level where you have to start thinking of adapting the the material. i.e. punch out 1 can also be used as a grab counter and you need to start understanding the pinians not just going thru the motions. I know just sitting down and looking at punchout 1, I came up with about 30 punchouts at all different angles from a single punchout.


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## Danjo (Feb 8, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> If I may add to that Danjo, Green is the refining stage. From there on there's really not that much more material till you get to BB. This is the level where like Dan said "You own the material, not just remember the material", but this is also the level where you have to start thinking of adapting the the material. i.e. punch out 1 can also be used as a grab counter and you need to start understanding the pinians not just going thru the motions. I know just sitting down and looking at punchout 1, I came up with about 30 punchouts at all different angles from a single punchout.


 
Well, that pretty much rounds it out. You'd think you were a Kaju black belt or something...oh wait...


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## Thesemindz (Feb 8, 2009)

suicide said:


> i ve been training some kid in kenpo that bugged me for about six months to show em some self defense and he gots everything he needs to past a orange belt test but its only been 2 months - is that to soon to test him or should i make him wait for a minute - he learned everything quick because its only him and because hes the only person i train he writes everything down hits hard and moves quick and shows me hes focused - i dont have a school we work out in my backyard wensdays and saturdays and the rest of the week he trains at his home - to me he seems ready and you could tell hes very hungry for this knowledge - i know its on me with what i do with my student - i was just wondering if i could get some opinions from some of you more experienced teachers out there - some quick feed back on this matter thanks !


 

In my opinion, if you believe he's ready for more advanced material, then he's ready to test on the material he already knows. 

If you were teaching him another skill, like math or reading or building a table, would you hold him back because he had only learned the basics recently?

Now, if you feel that development of character or emotional maturity is a an important part of his advancement in the art, then that should also be taken into account. But I think time is an arbitrary benchmark. Sometimes it can help give a general idea of the student's performance, but overall I believe that performance itself is what should matter.


-Rob


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## suicide (Feb 9, 2009)

thanks alot for all your feedback.


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## KenpoDave (Feb 9, 2009)

suicide said:


> i ve been training some kid in kenpo that bugged me for about six months to show em some self defense and he gots everything he needs to past a orange belt test but its only been 2 months - is that to soon to test him or should i make him wait for a minute - he learned everything quick because its only him and because hes the only person i train he writes everything down hits hard and moves quick and shows me hes focused - i dont have a school we work out in my backyard wensdays and saturdays and the rest of the week he trains at his home - to me he seems ready and you could tell hes very hungry for this knowledge - i know its on me with what i do with my student - i was just wondering if i could get some opinions from some of you more experienced teachers out there - some quick feed back on this matter thanks !


 
You're right.  It's on you as to what you do with your student.  From your question, I gather that you may be new at teaching, and that this may even be your first student.  It sounds like you don't have any clear benchmarks for what you expect of an orange belt.  

First and foremost, if you think he's ready, he's ready.  If you are fairly new at teaching, I would write down a list of the attributes that he has that make you think he is ready.  Next time you have an orange belt, check your list, make a new one, etc.  Everyone will be slightly different, but you should quickly start to see an emerging pattern of what you expect at that level.  Your "standard" will emerge.

Here are a few of mine...first off, there are 30 self defense techniques and one kata required, along with a list of basics.  So, to pass an orange belt test:

All of the techniques must be performed from memory correctly.  I will call out the name, but the student must perform the technique without having to ask me what it is against, or for any other hints.
All of the techniques must be performed full speed, full power.  That is relative, of course, and will change as the student progresses.  But the student must give all.
The kata must be correct.  Self correction is accepted, i.e., the student messes up in the middle and starts over on his own.
The individual basics (punches, blocks, kicks, combos) must be correct and should reflect time spent in training.
Orange also represents a benchmark for me.  I look at the student's level of skill, time in grade, and time spent in studio training, and it gives me "from start to now, this person has improved this much in this much time."  Not a hard and fast quantification by any means, but useful.

I expect the above at each test, with an increase in skill level and performance level for each belt level.  Character, maturity, theoretical knowledge, sparring skill, etc. is evaluated daily, and not part of the actual test with one exception.  Student's who don't attend sparring will be asked to spar either on the test, required to attend a certain number of classes, or required to put in a certain amount of time privately with me or another instructor.

Students with character/maturity issues are handled differently, depending on the issue(s).


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## TigerCraneGuy (Feb 9, 2009)

Is he hungry for the knowledge and skill to survive on the street... or the accolades derived from the belt? That might be the more pertinent question.

I was an EPAK Purple Belt and ready to grade for Blue when due to relocation overseas, I was forced to halt training. Many years have passed and I'm now in my thirties. Having just graded for Yellow again, I'm already brushing up on the material up to Green (both training at home four days a week, and with training partners at class twice per week) not because I'm hungry for the belt (that will come whenever it comes), but because imho, your average scumbag is not going to give a hoot that you're not ready to defend against attack X beacuse it's an 'advanced' technique you haven't learnt. I may not be grading for the belt, but I'm definitely going to arm myself with sufficient skill and knowledge to survive whatever's out there insofar as I can.

With my instructor, we've reached the point where he knows that the belt is just a consequence to me, so he's happy to keep on adding to my body of knowledge. Rest be assured though, I do still work hard on basics, basics, and basics...

So maybe this is a good test. If you're worried that all he's after is the belt, then offer to keep teaching him new material as he progresses(provided he maintains and works to perfect his basics, which are the crucial foundation), but keep the belts out of reach for just a little longer. 

If he treats Kenpo as serious discipline, he won't complain, but gladly, thankfully accept the offer.

Kind regards,
TCG


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## suicide (Feb 9, 2009)

yeah dave this guy is my first student im a take some of your advice as well as cranes


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## KempoGuy06 (Feb 10, 2009)

I say if he is ready and has proven the he knows his stuff then test him. sounds like the kids has his heart in this

B


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## suicide (Feb 10, 2009)

yeah the kid is hungry ! he also comes from a low income household he lives with his moms that barely makes ends meet , mother and father are divorced hes been trying to take some kind of self defense course but his parents just cant afford it - hes 14 going on 15 at first i didnt really want to train anyone but something told me to help this kid out before he goes into gangs or drugs route ' plus i could give em advice about life and whats really out there since i come from the same background that he does - i always let him know that im doing this for free and nowhere is he gonna get instructed in a art for free so to dont be wasting his time or mine if he aint real about this and the guys been on it - he even gots his lil brother 11 going on 12 intrested ...


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## Nomad (Feb 10, 2009)

It also sounds like you're in this for the right reasons then.  Well done, and I hope things work out well for all involved.

Personally, if he was bugging for the belt, I'd make him wait.  If he's just absorbing like a sponge and wanting new material, I'd test him.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Feb 10, 2009)

Agree with Nomad; hope it turns out well.

TCG


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## Aefibird (Feb 10, 2009)

Nomad said:


> Personally, if he was bugging for the belt, I'd make him wait.  If he's just absorbing like a sponge and wanting new material, I'd test him.



I agree. If all he's interested in is the coloured strip of cloth then he'll need to learn the lesson that he'll have to darn well earn it and bide his time. 

If, however, he's genuinely interested in learning and perfecting his techniques then I'd let him test now, as his main focus would be the accumulation of knowledge rather than ranking.

It sounds to me, from what you have said about him, that the lad is interested in learning and is a serious and committed student. In that case, it doesn't matter about the length of time he's been training between belt tests. If he knows his stuff then he knows his stuff.


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## KempoGuy06 (Feb 11, 2009)

suicide said:


> yeah the kid is hungry ! he also comes from a low income household he lives with his moms that barely makes ends meet , mother and father are divorced hes been trying to take some kind of self defense course but his parents just cant afford it - hes 14 going on 15 at first i didnt really want to train anyone but something told me to help this kid out before he goes into gangs or drugs route ' plus i could give em advice about life and whats really out there since i come from the same background that he does - i always let him know that im doing this for free and nowhere is he gonna get instructed in a art for free so to dont be wasting his time or mine if he aint real about this and the guys been on it - he even gots his lil brother 11 going on 12 intrested ...


Thank you. You are teaching for all the right reasons in my opinion. 

I came from a good upper middle class family, big house, nice cars, basically anything I could want, but I still went down. Drugs and alcohol mainly. I developed a drinking problem at 18 and drugs at 19. I watched friends die or go to prison. One morning I woke up and wanted to change my life. I found my dojo and owe those people my life (though they dont know that). What you are doing is preventing this kid from doing the same things I did and I salute you for that. 

I mentioned the life i grew up with not brag or boast but to point out that its not just people in low income families that get sucked up into that world it could be anyone. 

B


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## Aikicomp (Feb 12, 2009)

suicide said:


> yeah the kid is hungry ! he also comes from a low income household he lives with his moms that barely makes ends meet , mother and father are divorced hes been trying to take some kind of self defense course but his parents just cant afford it - hes 14 going on 15 at first i didnt really want to train anyone but something told me to help this kid out before he goes into gangs or drugs route ' plus i could give em advice about life and whats really out there since i come from the same background that he does - i always let him know that im doing this for free and nowhere is he gonna get instructed in a art for free so to dont be wasting his time or mine if he aint real about this and the guys been on it - he even gots his lil brother 11 going on 12 intrested ...


 
Sounds to me he has a good teacher with his head and heart in the right place. It also sounds like you have a good student with his head and heart in the right place. Testing him seems like the thing to do, even if it's not perfect he seems like he will continue to train and any mistakes he makes will be worked on again anyway. Passing a test is very important to a student who wants to learn (as we all know) and can make a big difference to him.


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## tomshem (Feb 12, 2009)

suicide said:


> ..some quick feed back on this matter thanks !


 
What I do is to always have someone else look at my students... As teachers, we tend to have blindspots... Another pair of eyes sure helps...

We call it a practice test... or a progress check... 

Cheers


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## suicide (Feb 12, 2009)

i went out and bought the orange belt after reading all your comments - im a keep hidden till the time is right - this weekend im a give him a pre test and do some toe to toe blow for blow combat with him of course i wont go 100% with him sparring - but that way he could get over his fear of defending himeself against a bigger person than him - i try to give em as much street insight that i can with out getting him panic´d but he pretty much understands that in the real world aint no rules , so if he could avoid a confrontation he should but if theres no way to get around it then he should handle it - i did his yellow belt test in a park i think ima do his orange belt test on the beach and try to switch locations for all his test - peace.


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## kosho (Feb 13, 2009)

suicide,
           I think what you are doing is great. I was 12 when I started training. My dad walked out on my mom, me and my sisters. When I was 9 it killed me and I started getting into trouble. My mom worked full time and went back to collage to get a 2 year degree. She raise me and my little sister on 12,000 a year. back in the 80's we lived in a houseing place. 
she got me into martial arts and worked out a payment plan with the teacher. after a few months of classes the teach saw I loved it and cut my payments to help out my mom. I had to clean the dojo and help out around my house and what not. I really feel that helped me out big time now that i look back on things. I now have my own Dojo and help out many other kids and adults as a way to give back for what I got. I also work with special needs kids. So what you are doing can and will have a big affect on the kid or kids you will train. GOOD FOR YOU, I also what to say thank you for taking the time to help out people and kids who just want it and can't aford it. My hat off to you SR.

The only thing I would do is stop telling him you are teaching him for FREE. 
Only because it could maybe make him feel that you don't care about him or the training as it is free. Just my 2 cents.

Kosho


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## Carol (Feb 13, 2009)

kosho said:


> suicide,
> I think what you are doing is great. I was 12 when I started training. My dad walked out on my mom, me and my sisters. When I was 9 it killed me and I started getting into trouble. My mom worked full time and went back to collage to get a 2 year degree. She raise me and my little sister on 12,000 a year. back in the 80's we lived in a houseing place.
> she got me into martial arts and worked out a payment plan with the teacher. after a few months of classes the teach saw I loved it and cut my payments to help out my mom. I had to clean the dojo and help out around my house and what not. I really feel that helped me out big time now that i look back on things. I now have my own Dojo and help out many other kids and adults as a way to give back for what I got. I also work with special needs kids. So what you are doing can and will have a big affect on the kid or kids you will train. GOOD FOR YOU, I also what to say thank you for taking the time to help out people and kids who just want it and can't aford it. My hat off to you SR.
> 
> ...



And you turned in to one helluva teacher, Sensei Bonk.   :asian:


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## kosho (Feb 13, 2009)

*And you turned in to one helluva teacher, Sensei Bonk. :asian: *
*__________________
*
Carol,
           Thank you for the kind words.  When you get a chance you are weclome to drop in my Dojo any time just check with your Teacher first.
As he is always welcome to my Dojo to share his vast info:

Kosho


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## Carol (Feb 13, 2009)

kosho said:


> *And you turned in to one helluva teacher, Sensei Bonk. :asian: *
> *__________________
> *
> Carol,
> ...



Very much appreciated sir, I will be sure to let him know.  :asian:  I'm moving about 20 miles west of where I am now so I've gotta get myself schlepped over to the new place.  Once I move in though...love to come out and see you all.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2009)

suicide said:


> i ve been training some kid in kenpo that bugged me for about six months to show em some self defense and he gots everything he needs to past a orange belt test but its only been 2 months - is that to soon to test him or should i make him wait for a minute - he learned everything quick because its only him and because hes the only person i train he writes everything down hits hard and moves quick and shows me hes focused - i dont have a school we work out in my backyard wensdays and saturdays and the rest of the week he trains at his home - to me he seems ready and you could tell hes very hungry for this knowledge - i know its on me with what i do with my student - i was just wondering if i could get some opinions from some of you more experienced teachers out there - some quick feed back on this matter thanks !


Two months shows a limited program. Make him work.
Sean


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## marlon (Feb 15, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> If I may add to that Danjo, Green is the refining stage. From there on there's really not that much more material till you get to BB. This is the level where like Dan said "You own the material, not just remember the material", but this is also the level where you have to start thinking of adapting the the material. i.e. punch out 1 can also be used as a grab counter and you need to start understanding the pinians not just going thru the motions. I know just sitting down and looking at punchout 1, I came up with about 30 punchouts at all different angles from a single punchout.


 
What is punchout 1?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## just2kicku (Feb 15, 2009)

marlon said:


> What is punchout 1?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 

It's the first punch counter against a right punch. I used it as an example tho it will vary from school to school. In our school foot movement is stressed in the first 6 punchouts. The dislocation or break of the elbow is secondary and trying to break the floating rib third. 

In the beginning we teach by numbers, but by the time you get to green the numbers disappear. I know when I testd for black, my attackers just came at me. They were handed knives and clubs and I had to defend myself.

Thats what I meant by the rifining stage. By green the numbers shouldn't be in your head as it should be second nature by then. Adapting punchout counters as grab counters. using the same punch counters for a left punch, etc..

Hope this helps Marlon.
Joe


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