# Active Shooter Teenager Self Defense



## Steve (Mar 26, 2018)

According to Wikipedia, we've had 4 incidents in March, where 7 people (2 parents, 1 hospital employee and 4 kids) were killed.  This is on top of the 17 killed and 14 injured in February in Parkland, and follows a long list of others.  While I'm sure many here have opinions on these incidents, the point of this isn't political.  It's practical. 

The list is growing, as is the rate of occurrence, and the severity of the loss of life.  List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia

This weekend, in response to the marches and such going on across the country, Rick Santorum said, “How about kids instead of looking to someone else to solve their problem, do something about maybe taking CPR classes or trying to deal with situations that when there is a violent shooter that you can actually respond to that." 

Rick Santorum: Students should learn CPR, not seek gun laws

So, how about it?  Is CPR the most effective self defense we can teach kids?  What actions can teenagers take that will make them safer in school if one of their classmates decides to come to school with dad's AR-15?  What does "effective self defense" look like in American schools these days?


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

the problem is that these are kids.  they are under the protective mantle of the school.  schools dont like kids thinking for themselves , especially in a situation like this.  they want to herd sheep not cats.  under their own discretion the kids would run in every direction, jump out windows or who knows what.  the teachers herd all the kids to stand in a corner and "hide", or some such decision policy made from a swivel chair.
there are a couple of programs out there that teach the kids to yell and throw pencils and books at the killer but this is mostly a feel good exercise without actual effectiveness.
any EMT out there can correct me but i dont think CPR is very effective for gun shot wounds.  how to apply a tourniquet would at least be helpful, if not a protective measure.
for the most part my own logic says what we are doing is all wrong.  why do schools have fire alarms that are wired direct to the fire house where the response time is as short as possible but for a school shooting we depend on someone with a cell phone calling 911?
i think gun legislation is political so i wont comment on it other that say that the chances of it being a good solution is not very high.  it hasnt passed thus far so lets stop fighting over it and focus on what we can do.
where is the bullet proof glass?  hospitals now have armed guards and segmented entry way rooms that only open via a guard, why isnt this applied to schools?


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## mrt2 (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> the problem is that these are kids.  they are under the protective mantle of the school.  schools dont like kids thinking for themselves , especially in a situation like this.  they want to herd sheep not cats.  under their own discretion the kids would run in every direction, jump out windows or who knows what.  the teachers herd all the kids to stand in a corner and "hide", or some such decision policy made from a swivel chair.
> there are a couple of programs out there that teach the kids to yell and throw pencils and books at the killer but this is mostly a feel good exercise without actual effectiveness.
> any EMT out there can correct me but i dont think CPR is very effective for gun shot wounds.  how to apply a tourniquet would at least be helpful, if not a protective measure.
> for the most part my own logic says what we are doing is all wrong.  why do schools have fire alarms that are wired direct to the fire house where the response time is as short as possible but for a school shooting we depend on someone with a cell phone calling 911?
> ...



To a certain extent, what you would do in the event of a fire and what you would do in the event of an active shooter are sort of opposite.  And that applies not just to SOP, but to building design.  

If you wanted to design schools to prevent or minimize casualties, you could design schools like you might design prisons.  One gate in and out, installation of metal detectors, minimal windows, ability to lock down the entire school.  It would come at a cost, of course.  It is hard enough psychologically on prisoners and staff, one can only imagine the effect on young impressionable minds.


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## lklawson (Mar 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> This weekend, in response to the marches and such going on across the country, Rick Santorum said, “How about kids instead of looking to someone else to solve their problem, do something about maybe taking CPR classes or trying to deal with situations that when there is a violent shooter that you can actually respond to that."
> 
> Rick Santorum: Students should learn CPR, not seek gun laws


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...ot-seek-gun-laws/ar-BBKGGmp?OCID=ansmsnnews11
Well, he has a point.  Statistically, what's more likely, a heart attack or a "school shooting?"



> So, how about it?  Is CPR the most effective self defense we can teach kids?  What actions can teenagers take that will make them safer in school if one of their classmates decides to come to school with dad's AR-15?


Hyperbole?  Statistically speaking AR's aren't the most common choice.  That said...



> What does "effective self defense" look like in American schools these days?


Sure.  I just wrote an article on this.

The First Rule is... MOVE!

The synopsis is "move laterally and to cover because a moving target is a lot harder for anyone, particularly the poorly trained, to hit and cover is, well cover."  I threw in some statistics and studies to support the thesis.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Buka (Mar 26, 2018)

Scary, important subject. But I'm going to refrain from it, otherwise I'll eventually get all political.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> To a certain extent, what you would do in the event of a fire and what you would do in the event of an active shooter are sort of opposite.  And that applies not just to SOP, but to building design.
> 
> If you wanted to design schools to prevent or minimize casualties, you could design schools like you might design prisons.  One gate in and out, installation of metal detectors, minimal windows, ability to lock down the entire school.  It would come at a cost, of course.  It is hard enough psychologically on prisoners and staff, one can only imagine the effect on young impressionable minds.



you somewhat missed the direction of my post. 

 schools have fire alarms that are direct to fire responders why do we not a alarms to notify police responders?  we have tremendous technology but we dont apply it.
hospitals are budgeting millions in security measures like bullet proof glass and multiple entry doors that open by guards to prevent unwanted aggressors from coming in the building.  they dont look like a prison, they are modern and classy. if hospitals can do it so can schools.  politicians just have to budget the money.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2018)

Yeah, not interested in the politics... at least not in this thread or on this forum.  The real question is about self defense. To try and clarify, the point Santorum made was to suggest that the kids do something more constructive, like CPR training. 

 I appreciate the article @lklawson .  In the article, the emphasis seems to be simply to move to cover... with the coda of "return fire."  Are you saying that there is no real training that would benefit a teenager?  Running, and looking for cover seems very sensible, and I've seen many articles recently that discuss a shift from the "lockdown" mentality to more of a "get the hell out fast" one.  But I don't know that this would require a lot of training.  Returning fire doesn't seem practical or advisable.  

If you guys were going to create a "self defense" course for teenagers with the goal of reducing their risk in an active shooter situation, what else might you include beyond the above?

Also, to clarify, in an effort to avoid the politics, I suggest we consider schools as they are and focus on things the kids can do for themselves.    If we get into other things, such as school planning/construction, arming teachers, or changing gun laws, this will surely stray into politics.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> you somewhat missed the direction of my post.
> 
> schools have fire alarms that are direct to fire responders why do we not a alarms to notify police responders?  we have tremendous technology but we dont apply it.
> hospitals are budgeting millions in security measures like bullet proof glass and multiple entry doors that open by guards to prevent unwanted aggressors from coming in the building.  they dont look like a prison, they are modern and classy. if hospitals can do it so can schools.  politicians just have to budget the money.


Hey, I appreciate your points, but as I say above, I am hoping to hear some ideas people will have about self defense.  I think if we get into modifying school buildings, or discussing other things that adults can do, we will inevitably run afoul of the moderators.

So, again, the comment from Santorum was that the kids should do something for themselves.  What might that be?


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## CB Jones (Mar 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> Hey, I appreciate your points, but as I say above, I am hoping to hear some ideas people will have about self defense.  I think if we get into modifying school buildings, or discussing other things that adults can do, we will inevitably run afoul of the moderators.
> 
> So, again, the comment from Santorum was that the kids should do something for themselves.  What might that be?



The only thing I could ask kids to do is...if you hear or see something report it.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> Hey, I appreciate your points, but as I say above, I am hoping to hear some ideas people will have about self defense.  I think if we get into modifying school buildings, or discussing other things that adults can do, we will inevitably run afoul of the moderators.
> 
> So, again, the comment from Santorum was that the kids should do something for themselves.  What might that be?


i understand about the mods and i agree.  but i do not honestly feel there is anything that children even up to high school can really do. college is different. at that age and situation we are looking at the guide lines of the FBI  hide, run, fight program.


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## pdg (Mar 26, 2018)

Firstly, that guy recommending CPR - it's painfully obvious that he knows less about trauma first aid than I know about interpretive dance.

I suppose there are worse things than CPR you could do to a gunshot victim, like you could shoot them again, or maybe stab them...

Any of this type of measure (first aid training, encouraging people to arm themselves, etc.) isn't even thinking about addressing the problem though - car insurance doesn't stop your car being stolen.

Neither do the protective measures like bulletproof glass or secure entry - I mean, in a fire situation everything would open for efficient evacuation and everyone would go outside right? So just set off a fire alarm and wait somewhere outside the fire escape with your gun...

So, the next option is gun control...

I don't believe that will work.

Look at how strict gun control is in the UK, people still get shot. Enough that there are dedicated armed response police. If 'our' model of control worked fully, we wouldn't need those, a stick and a whistle would be plenty.

It's either uninvent guns (erm...) or control them to such a degree that they might as well not exist. Even then, it's only restricting the tooling.

Neither of those are viable either.


What needs looking at is why these shooters go on a shooting rampage in the first place. Why does society breed that mindset? What is it that makes these people think it's a good plan to go kill a load of other people?

That's the real problem that (apparently) nobody will admit to - and because it's not admitted it can't be addressed.

From the amount of reports, it's hardly justifiable to say it's just the occasional nutjob.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2018)

Every solution that involves the participants effecting their own defence would be catastrophic.

So you could dog pile the guy and probably get him. And you could raise your odds by hiding around a corner or somethings. But you could also loose a few people doing it. And in this case of course you are loosing school children.

Monash Uni as an example.
Monash University shooting - Wikipedia






So it could be done but It would be a hard sell to the parents though

The self defence solution is kind of a scam. And people did this to me constantly.

Put me on my own in a pub with 50 guys. Now I probably cant take two guys and not turn it in to a horrible mess. But if the onus was on me then nobody had to solve violence issues in any meaningfull way.

Now logically you would look at the risk figure out how to reasonably reduce it and then set up systems that have a hope of working.

Eg. People fall off roofs you set up scaffolding.

The self defence solution is of course done backwards.

They see the risk and for insanely suggest that the individual can mysteriously solve unsolvable problems with training or by being heroic.

Eg. People fall off roofs. His climbing ability was the issue.

So yeah you can adress the problem in this manner but be prepared to have people die because of it.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> So, the next option is gun control...


as @Steve has said lets not get into that arena. the mods will lock the thread.



pdg said:


> What needs looking at is why these shooters go on a shooting rampage in the first place. Why does society breed that mindset? What is it that makes these people think it's a good plan to go kill a load of other people?


first off society doesnt breed this mind set.  in almost every single case it has been a result of mental illness that was not addressed.   many psychologists understand this person very well  its not something we have to "look into"  its well understood.  the problem is a lack of addressing the metal health issues in the US.   as a society we have determined that locking people up in mental institutions against their will is a bad idea. as a result we closed all but a few facilities that were capable to handle the issue and we are paying the price for that decision.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Every solution that involves the participants effecting their own defence would be catastrophic.
> 
> So you could dog pile the guy and probably get him. And you could raise your odds by hiding around a corner or somethings. But you could also loose a few people doing it. And in this case of course you are loosing school children.
> 
> ...



i am not sure if your using sarcasm or serious.
the clip you posted did show a successful disarm of the killer.  that is what adults should do if in the situation of being responsible for children but i think the OP was specific to responses from minors in self defense.


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## pdg (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> as @Steve has said lets not get into that arena. the mods will lock the thread.



In fairness, I did 'argue' both sides and came down on the side that it's not worth pursuing.



hoshin1600 said:


> first off society doesnt breed this mind set.  in almost every single case it has been a result of mental illness that was not addressed.   many psychologists understand this person very well  its not something we have to "look into"  its well understood.  the problem is a lack of addressing the metal health issues in the US.   as a society we have determined that locking people up in mental institutions against their will is a bad idea. as a result we closed all but a few facilities that were capable to handle the issue and we are paying the price for that decision.



But that fundamentally agrees it's a societal issue. That it's the root cause of the problem not being addressed.

To refuse to do anything about people who pose a real threat to others is to deny that it's a problem. It might be understood, but if that understanding isn't acted on what's the point?

There are other societies around the world with easy access to firearms and they don't appear to suffer from the same problems.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i am not sure if your using sarcasm or serious.
> the clip you posted did show a successful disarm of the killer.  that is what adults should do if in the situation of being responsible for children but i think the OP was specific to responses from minors in self defense.



The situation as presented is quite simply madness. And so the solutions are mad. If every single person attacks the gunman at once. You will have more chance of success. Sorry about the victims a bullet proof door might have saved.

What is your better solution?


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The situation as presented is quite simply madness. And so the solutions are mad. If every single person attacks the gunman at once. You will have more chance of success. Sorry about the victims a bullet proof door might have saved.
> 
> What is your better solution?


as usual i am at a total failure to understand your point.   maybe i am missing something.  i will agree numbers matter if your talking about attacking a gunman.  i am not implying the contrary.  i am however looking at the fact that we are talking about school children ages 6 to 17.  Sandy hook killer shot and killed 6 year olds.  there was not a chance in the world they could fight back.  this is why i tried to point out that the video you posted (unless i am wrong) was of a college student  who was 22 years of age. thats an adult in my book.   totally different situation.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> But that fundamentally agrees it's a societal issue. That it's the root cause of the problem not being addressed.
> 
> To refuse to do anything about people who pose a real threat to others is to deny that it's a problem. It might be understood, but if that understanding isn't acted on what's the point?


ok from that perspective i can agree.  i was making an assumption that your view was that American society was creating people who are more likely to be killers. that there is a problem with the US and we are causing people to be disgruntled mass murderers.  at this point in time i cannot agree with this point of view.  maybe some day we will discover that mcdonalds and microwave ovens have a detrimental impact on brain development and we are in fact creating serial killers but until then.......


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## DaveB (Mar 26, 2018)

Start the kids meditating and practicing chi kung at age 4.

By age 6 roughly 1 per class should have ascended to the 4th Potential and be able to maintain Mushin and launch focussed chi attacks to disrupt the brain function of an assailant.

Obviously this will require teachers to learn the appropriate psychic defences and recovery pressure points in case the prodigy child has a Carrie moment.


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## pdg (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> ok from that perspective i can agree.  i was making an assumption that your view was that American society was creating people who are more likely to be killers. that there is a problem with the US and we are causing people to be disgruntled mass murderers.  at this point in time i cannot agree with this point of view.  maybe some day we will discover that mcdonalds and microwave ovens have a detrimental impact on brain development and we are in fact creating serial killers but until then.......



No, if it came across as me saying it's an American society problem then I said it wrong.

I'm quite sure every country grows it's own killers...

The US population is much larger than say the UK, so obviously the straight number of murderers is going to be higher.

Does the same sort of thing happen in China, or Egypt, or Mongolia? Dunno, we don't get news from there... Maybe they have different processes in place that more effectively deal with these sort of issues at source.

There are things about American society I'm not a fan of, but I can say the same about British society, or French (I've lived there), and with some superficial research I could say the same about every country I'm sure - but those negatives are always massively outweighed by the fact that normal people are essentially the same, they want good things for them and those they care about.


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## pdg (Mar 26, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Start the kids meditating and practicing chi kung at age 4.
> 
> By age 6 roughly 1 per class should have ascended to the 4th Potential and be able to maintain Mushin and launch focussed chi attacks to disrupt the brain function of an assailant.
> 
> Obviously this will require teachers to learn the appropriate psychic defences and recovery pressure points in case the prodigy child has a Carrie moment.



Your sarcasm is weak and flawed...




Edit: Oh, and do you have any reasoned disagreement to my post or is it just a drive-by click?


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## DaveB (Mar 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Your sarcasm is weak and flawed...


How so?


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## pdg (Mar 26, 2018)

DaveB said:


> How so?



Because things like militant vegetarianism, or religion, or being a politician - these are things where sarcasm is suitable.

Kids shooting kids?

Seriously mate, grow up.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2018)

Okay. I regret bringing this up .  So far it seems run away and look for cover is the best we can do .


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> Okay. I regret bringing this up .  So far it seems run away and look for cover is the best we can do .


Don't regret it. I'm willing to have a serious conversation with you.  I'm interested,  what your thoughts are.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> Okay. I regret bringing this up .  So far it seems run away and look for cover is the best we can do .



It is a pretty bad situation. The gun man has all the advantages before you even start to try to counter them.

I mean han you even sneak out a window or something?

Block the door with a table?


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> as usual i am at a total failure to understand your point.   maybe i am missing something.  i will agree numbers matter if your talking about attacking a gunman.  i am not implying the contrary.  i am however looking at the fact that we are talking about school children ages 6 to 17.  Sandy hook killer shot and killed 6 year olds.  there was not a chance in the world they could fight back.  this is why i tried to point out that the video you posted (unless i am wrong) was of a college student  who was 22 years of age. thats an adult in my book.   totally different situation.



Then come up with a better plan.

Because huddled in the far corner just seems silly to me.





Shoulder throws.
Oh.
My
God
No.

Ok that was everthing that is wrong with martial arts in pretty much one class.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Because huddled in the far corner just seems silly to me


You keep asking me to come up with a better plan as if you don't agree with me but then you say huddled in a corner is silly which was one of my initial points.  The Sandy hook massacre had such a high death toll because one teacher led her class to hide in a small bathroom with one entrance.  And I'm sorry to offend anyone for being insensitive but the saying "fish in a barrel" comes to mind.
I don't have the answers. But I have to believe there are better people than i out there who do have solutions  but for some reason they are not being listened to.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> You keep asking me to come up with a better plan as if you don't agree with me but then you say huddled in a corner is silly which was one of my initial points.  The Sandy hook massacre had such a high death toll because one teacher led her class to hide in a small bathroom with one entrance.  And I'm sorry to offend anyone for being insensitive but the saying "fish in a barrel" comes to mind.
> I don't have the answers. But I have to believe there are better people than i out there who do have solutions  but for some reason they are not being listened to.



Yeah "for some reason."


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## DaveB (Mar 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Because things like militant vegetarianism, or religion, or being a politician - these are things where sarcasm is suitable.
> 
> Kids shooting kids?
> 
> Seriously mate, grow up.


But we are not talking about kids shooting kids, to do so would be political.
We are discussing self defence for children vs an assailant armed with high fire-rate firearms.

I give this topic the seriousness I feel it deserves.

Edit: yes I have a very good reasoned disagreement with your post, but to raise it would get the thread locked as you strayed into politics.


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## pdg (Mar 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Edit: yes I have a very good reasoned disagreement with your post, but to raise it would get the thread lockedlas you strayed into politics



Well, for curiosity's sake feel free to pm me - I didn't think I got political but obviously interpretations vary...


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## pdg (Mar 27, 2018)

Nothing personal, I'm quoting this message because it's recent...



DaveB said:


> But we are not talking about kids shooting kids, to do so would be political.
> We are discussing self defence for children vs an assailant armed with high fire-rate firearms.



This thread was political from the start really, having been triggered by comments made by a politician.

In reality, there is no 'self defence' a teenager can effect against a determined armed attacker, and the suggestion gets even more preposterous as the age goes down. They're not exactly going to stand up and de-escalate the situation, and what physical option does a 12/13 year old have against someone armed (with anything from a hammer to a rifle)?

In any case, suggesting they defend themselves is to suggest the introduction of a policy, which is a political decision.

To suggest teaching "CPR" is hugely misinformed, but it's making the political statement that "hey, these things are going to happen, let's give the victims something to do after".

Securing schools with entry systems, bulletproof glass etc, again a political policy and budget decision.

Trying to shift the blame onto the victims as he did is incredibly cowardly, to suggest children should take responsibility to defend themselves... I'd quite like to give him a (completely non political) slap upside his head...


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## DaveB (Mar 27, 2018)

The phrase "duck and cover" springs to mind.


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## pdg (Mar 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> The phrase "duck and cover" springs to mind.



Works well against nuclear attack by all accounts...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 27, 2018)

In my mind it's tricky. The two options are run and hide, call 911, in which case your chances of survival may be higher, but more overall children may die. Or you can learn how to be a hero, possibly prevent casualties, but drastically decrease your own chance for survival. And that's not something I personally would ever be interested in teaching a child to do. I'm not really sure if there is anything effectively that they can be taught.

You shouldn't really have to learn first aid, from my thinking. Either the situation has been fixed in which case the professionals should be there in seconds, or it hasn't in which case it would be risky going to the other child to administer first aid.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 27, 2018)

the title of the thread includes the word "teenager"  so unless @Steve wants to expand on that i have to assume we are talking high school.  14 -17 years of age.  as i said before college (or University as some people have said there is a difference)  is different not only due to the students age but by the policies that might be instituted for each group.
high school i think would be very much the same policies and procedures that you would see in the lower grades.  i know if i was again in high school but knew what i know now on the subject, i would not be able to sit on the floor curled in a ball waiting to die. i would be out the window , through a wall or up into the ceiling. something to get me out of the building.  school policy would not permit that.  the teachers will step in to prevent me from escape.  teachers have been put into a position of control over the students and that doesnt disappear during a crisis, it amplifies.  
i do think that at the age of 14 you can begin to apply the Run, Hide, Fight  model.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 27, 2018)

CPR is not the correct action for a gun shot wound.  

Simple example.  You get shot in the leg and are still breathing.   How does CPR address that wound?  CPR doesn't address gunshot wounds nor bleeding.  There shouldn't be any debate about things like this or any question about how to treat a gun shot wound.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Firstly, that guy recommending CPR - it's painfully obvious that he knows less about trauma first aid than I know about interpretive dance.
> 
> I suppose there are worse things than CPR you could do to a gunshot victim, like you could shoot them again, or maybe stab them...
> 
> ...



*This indeed.  Since we have had guns for a long time but didn't have mass shootings, especially at schools, what has changed?*



pdg said:


> In fairness, I did 'argue' both sides and came down on the side that it's not worth pursuing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*I agree that there is a societal issue that we are not admitting to, and that we therefore will have trouble correcting it.
*
We did not used to have a real problem with firearms in the US either.  Therefore, I believe there is another problem which needs correcting.  To me, firearms usage as it is manifested now, is a product of a deeper problem we haven't studied, or even admitted to existing.

*And I agree politics of the issue should be avoided in Steve's discussion.*


Now to @Steve and his question about self defense.

I don't think we can teach children to a black belt level in the martial art of their choice, and expect that to work against a weapon that can be used at a distance that prevents good chances at disarming the shooter.  Arming teachers is a possible solution but presents too many problems of its own imho, that makes it not useful, and again, Steve seems to want to limit our discussion to SD for the kids.

Somebody has already mentioned if you see something say something.  To me, that relates to the SD aspect we often discuss about being aware of possible threats.  Whether they report their concerns to teachers or police, that may bring an awareness that will help identify a person with a serious problem that needs attention.  Does it guarantee every incident will then be avoided?  Of course not.  But every one that is is a win. 

How about students thinking about possible scenarios and planning what they will best do?  Hiding, running away, playing dead, calling out the shooter's name so the shooter may recognize a potential victim as a person instead of a target?  

That's all that comes to mind right away.  I, like Steve, would like to hear what others think of as possibilities that are available to an unarmed, probably unsuspecting, student.  And possibilities before or during an incident.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> you somewhat missed the direction of my post.
> 
> schools have fire alarms that are direct to fire responders why do we not a alarms to notify police responders?  we have tremendous technology but we dont apply it.


Someone just did invent this.  Free to schools too.  App for smart phones.

Smart Safety for Organizations - Mayday Safety

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> Okay. I regret bringing this up .  So far it seems run away and look for cover is the best we can do .



I don't think you need to be sorry Steve.  I think it is a reasonable question for us as martial artists.  One of the most common reasons people give for wanting to study martial arts is self defense.  There are other aspects about self defense than strikes, kicks, and grappling.  We often discuss them.  Why not think about which of those other aspects might (or might not) be useful to a kid in school?  In my post above, I mentioned prevention, but that wasn't your question.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned prevention at all in this thread.  If anyone thinks that is a useful matter for discussion, we should have a new thread started with that in mind.  In this thread we should focus on SD in an incident.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Someone just did invent this.  Free to schools too.  App for smart phones.
> 
> Smart Safety for Organizations - Mayday Safety
> 
> ...



That might have possibilities.  Thanks for the link.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> I appreciate the article @lklawson .  In the article, the emphasis seems to be simply to move to cover... with the coda of "return fire."  Are you saying that there is no real training that would benefit a teenager?  Running, and looking for cover seems very sensible, and I've seen many articles recently that discuss a shift from the "lockdown" mentality to more of a "get the hell out fast" one.


Just going by evidence-driven statistics of "what actually works."



> But I don't know that this would require a lot of training.  Returning fire doesn't seem practical or advisable.


Not the students, per se, but as a part of a wholistic game-plan.  Again, from an evidence-driven research paradigm:

"Professor Eric Dietz, previously the executive director for the Indiana Department of Homeland Security, conducted research in 2014 that found having either an armed guard or armed staff on school grounds can reduce the number of casualties in a mass shooting situation by up to 70 percent by, at the very least, slowing an attacker."
Research shows armed teachers could reduce casualties

And page 11 of FASTER
http://fastersaveslives.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/FASTER-White-Paper_REV032816.pdf 



> If you guys were going to create a "self defense" course for teenagers with the goal of reducing their risk in an active shooter situation, what else might you include beyond the above?


Honestly?  That's it.  Unarmed against a person with a gun, these are the most effective strategies.

If you want the plan for the "fight" part of it, here it is:  Find a way to close.  Guns are like a thrusting sword or knife with infinite range.  Get inside the range, "pass the point" and control the limb.  It's linear.  Then beat the ever love'n snot out and maybe do a takedown.  I'm assuming that the victims are completely disarmed of "weapons" (such as knives) so it's only "improvised weapons."  Pencils and books suck as weapons, but they're sometimes better than nothing.



> Also, to clarify, in an effort to avoid the politics, I suggest we consider schools as they are and focus on things the kids can do for themselves.    If we get into other things, such as school planning/construction, arming teachers, or changing gun laws, this will surely stray into politics.


Hard to avoid politics because it is such a politicized topic.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> The only thing I could ask kids to do is...if you hear or see something report it.


Most of these "school shooters" were reported.  The douchbag in Florida was reported multiple times.  The FBI already had a warning as said douchbag wrote online what his plans were and an observer reported it.  The local police went to the douchebag's home dozens of times.

Said douchebag was apparently voted for the yearbook "most likely to be a school shooter."

People saw.  People reported.  Nothing was done.  Mostly for political reasons if reports are to be believed (money for raw numbers of school students and money for kids not arrested).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Firstly, that guy recommending CPR - it's painfully obvious that he knows less about trauma first aid than I know about interpretive dance.
> 
> I suppose there are worse things than CPR you could do to a gunshot victim, like you could shoot them again, or maybe stab them...


While I agree that trauma care is different for a gunshot the point of the original statement wasn't about what to do for a gunshot but what would be a better use of time and resources for the students calling for gun control.  Their time would be more effectively used and more people would be saved, statistically speaking, if they spent their time learning CPR instead of the time they spend promoting gun control laws.

That said, a basic First Aid course which covers CPR and Trauma would be a great idea for almost everyone.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> In reality, there is no 'self defence' a teenager can effect against a determined armed attacker, and the suggestion gets even more preposterous as the age goes down. They're not exactly going to stand up and de-escalate the situation, and what physical option does a 12/13 year old have against someone armed (with anything from a hammer to a rifle)?


Depends on the teenager.  I worked with one 13 year old boy who was already 160 and 5'7".  He has just as much physicality as most adults.



> To suggest teaching "CPR" is hugely misinformed, but it's making the political statement that "hey, these things are going to happen, let's give the victims something to do after".


Without commenting on the political aspect, my take on it was this politician was saying that the students calling for gun control are wasting their time and their time would be better spent learning CPR.  I'm deliberately trying to avoid commenting on whether or not I agree with the statement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## pdg (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> While I agree that trauma care is different for a gunshot the point of the original statement wasn't about what to do for a gunshot but what would be a better use of time and resources for the students calling for gun control.  Their time would be more effectively used and more people would be saved, statistically speaking, if they spent their time learning CPR instead of the time they spend promoting gun control laws.



So effectively you're agreeing that this sort of incident is inevitable so there's no point trying to stop them happening in the first place, better just learn to mop up after?

While it's a waste of time to campaign for half hearted laws that don't do much, if anything, would it not be better to recommend spending that time on identifying and fixing the actual cause?



lklawson said:


> That said, a basic First Aid course which covers CPR and Trauma would be a great idea for almost everyone.



That much I agree with, everyone should know first aid - but I feel my reasons for that are somewhat different to yours...


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> The phrase "duck and cover" springs to mind.


Did you click through to my article?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## pdg (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Without commenting on the political aspect, my take on it was this politician was saying that the students calling for gun control are wasting their time and their time would be better spent learning CPR. I'm deliberately trying to avoid commenting on whether or not I agree with the statement



Try as you might, there is (apparently) no way to escape the political side of it.

Saying people are wasting their time campaigning and lobbying is in itself a political statement, as is supporting a proposal to introduce policies about what they should do instead.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> you shouldn't really have to learn first aid, from my thinking. Either the situation has been fixed in which case the professionals should be there in seconds, or it hasn't in which case it would be risky going to the other child to administer first aid.


First Aid, really Trauma Care, is what you do after the shooting.  I recall seeing some statistics which suggest that 50% or more of deaths from gunshots in these sort of events could have been prevented with proper application of tourniquets and chest seals.  The idea isn't to be a combat medic, just to keep the injured "in the game" until a higher level of care can get there.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> We did not used to have a real problem with firearms in the US either.


Not even that.  Statistics show that mass school shootings aren't any more numerous now than in the past.  In fact, they may be a tad lower depending one which statistical collection method you prefer.  They're not more common but they are much more blasted out in the news.

https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-stop-the-school-shootings

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> So effectively you're agreeing that this sort of incident is inevitable so there's no point trying to stop them happening in the first place, better just learn to mop up after?


I did not write that.  Please do not play that game.

What I wrote, again, is that I believe that Santorum's statement was intended to mean that he believes that the students are wasting their time and effort and that their time and effort would be better spent in learning CPR if their intention is to save lives.

I have specifically refrained from stating my opinions on the efficacy of gun control laws or whether or not the students would actually be better off learning CPR instead or if their efforts are a waste of time.

Please do not engage in straw man arguments with me.  It is insulting.



> While it's a waste of time to campaign for half hearted laws that don't do much, if anything, would it not be better to recommend spending that time on identifying and fixing the actual cause?


What I believe is the actual cause is outside of the bounds of the subject of this thread.



> That much I agree with, everyone should know first aid - but I feel my reasons for that are somewhat different to yours...


I'm not sure that you know what my reasons are and I'm sure that I don't know what yours are.  And, at the moment, I'm still a little cheezed at you so I'm going to refrain from speculation.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Try as you might, there is (apparently) no way to escape the political side of it.


Look, stop trying to take this thread political.



> Saying people are wasting their time campaigning and lobbying is in itself a political statement, as is supporting a proposal to introduce policies about what they should do instead.


Of course it is.  I've written that 5 times now.  I've also written repeatedly that I am avoiding commenting on the veracity of that statement.  And, in this thread, I recommend you do the same.  MT has rules about politics.


----------



## Steve (Mar 27, 2018)

Hey guys.  I have like 5 minutes to post something, but I appreciate the discussion.

My thoughts, building on what I was thinking before, and after reading the comments, are that the real key here is preventative.  Once an event is occurring, the cards are stacked in the favor of the person who is armed.  Honestly, some of this is what I teach new supervisors to do.  We're not Bruce Willis types, but we are responsible for the safety of our employees.

So, things that kids can do before an event has occurred

1:  Give some thought to what you would do if something happens.  Think about where the exits are, and visualize some "what if" scenarios.  
2:  Take care of your friends, treat people well, and don't be a bully.  Sometimes, the victims in these events are completely random.  Sometimes, they are bullies (or perceived bullies) and are the primary targets.
3:  Report suspicious behavior and understand that this isn't ratting out your peers.  
4:  Related to 2 above (and this might be hard), but don't stigmatize mental illness, and don't dismiss drug or alcohol abuse as benign.  
5:  Exercise and mind your fitness.

If something is occurring, I honestly can't think of anything better than to run away, if possible, and find cover if not.   The only thing I might add is related to 1, which is to be decisive.  If you're going to run, run like hell.  If you're going to fight, fight like hell.  Don't stop.  

I'll just end by saying that I agree that the causes and possible solutions to this situation are outside the bounds of this discussion.  I think there's value in discussing the situation as it is.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> What does "effective self defense" look like in American schools these days?


I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but this might be useful:

https://try.usconcealedcarry.net/aar-complete-mass-shootings-survival-guide/?tID=5aabccbcd65ac


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## Grenadier (Mar 27, 2018)

*Admin's Note:*

Political discussions are not permitted here.  Please visit one of our sister forums owned by the Forum Foundry, for that purpose.  

This one is ideal for such things:

US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> First Aid, really Trauma Care, is what you do after the shooting.  I recall seeing some statistics which suggest that 50% or more of deaths from gunshots in these sort of events could have been prevented with proper application of tourniquets and chest seals.  The idea isn't to be a combat medic, just to keep the injured "in the game" until a higher level of care can get there.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Do you mean in the time between the shooting stops, and the professional gets there?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> That said, a basic First Aid course which covers CPR and Trauma would be a great idea for almost everyone.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Ignoring everything else on the topic, this sounds like a good idea in general. Schools teach CPR, but with all the different ways someone can get injured, a basic first aid/first responder course could be very useful. I learned/taught that stuff for BSA, and have had to use the knowledge from it a bunch of times (in and out of scouts). Never for anything big, but just basic knowledge that makes life easier when someone gets hurt.


----------



## pdg (Mar 27, 2018)

I'll cease involvement in this thread after this. Mainly because I'm incapable of looking at the effect without considering the cause, and it's now clear that anything to do with the cause is political...

I never meant for any of my comments to have a political slant, but after I was accused of doing so I reinterpreted what I'd said (and used the same interpretation of other's comments) and the majority - mine and others - can have political undertones.

Specifically to @lklawson - all I have to go on is what you've written, and my interpretation of those taken in relation to previous comments. If that is inaccurate (and considered by you to be a strawman) then all I can suggest is that something has been lost in translation...


----------



## DaveB (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Not even that.  Statistics show that mass school shootings aren't any more numerous now than in the past.  In fact, they may be a tad lower depending one which statistical collection method you prefer.  They're not more common but they are much more blasted out in the news.
> 
> https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-stop-the-school-shootings
> 
> ...



I don't believe there was ever a time when mass killing of children in school by a gunman was ever less reported by the news. 

That idea makes no sense.


----------



## Steve (Mar 27, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Ignoring everything else on the topic, this sounds like a good idea in general. Schools teach CPR, but with all the different ways someone can get injured, a basic first aid/first responder course could be very useful. I learned/taught that stuff for BSA, and have had to use the knowledge from it a bunch of times (in and out of scouts). Never for anything big, but just basic knowledge that makes life easier when someone gets hurt.


Stats on CPR aren't all that encouraging.  The gist of what I've read on the subject indicates that it's not often used, and seldom effective even when someone receives it.  Better than nothing, though, I guess.

I think some basic first aid is reasonable, but I'm not confident that even CPR certification will create people competent to administer CPR in a crisis.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you mean in the time between the shooting stops, and the professional gets there?


Yes, you have it right.

In most "school shootings" the trauma professionals are barred from entry until the area is cleared by LEO.  LEO are trained to ignore the wounded.  At the point when LEO enters they are "on the hunt."  Their goal is to find and engage the murderer as quickly as possible.  That prevents the murderer from continuing the rampage.  Maybe the murderer is killed or incapacitated, but even if it is just that his attention is now focused on LEO (or some other armed engagement), the murders stop.  So the LEO are trained to let the wounded lay.  But until the area is officially cleared, EMS is not allowed in.  They don't know if there isn't another shooter waiting in ambush or booby traps, or whatever.  In that time people bleed out.  If someone was there with chest seals, tourniquets, and the training to use the properly, lives can be saved.

Just keep the blood in until EMS can get there and apply "real" aid.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Specifically to @lklawson - all I have to go on is what you've written, and my interpretation of those taken in relation to previous comments.


Or, you know, you could *ASK* me why I think first aid training is important.  Crazy, I know, but it's been known to work in the past.



> If that is inaccurate (and considered by you to be a strawman) then all I can suggest is that something has been lost in translation...


A straw man is where you attribute a position to someone which they have not taken, usually an absurd position, and then argue against that.  In this case, you attributed to me the position "effectively you're agreeing that this sort of incident is inevitable so there's no point trying to stop them happening in the first place, better just learn to mop up after"

This is a position which I have not taken, stated, and is, _prima facie_, absurd.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I don't believe there was ever a time when mass killing of children in school by a gunman was ever less reported by the news.


What do you base this on?  I base my statement on time and word-count surveys of news reports.  Don't take my word on it.  Do a search to find out if word-counts, number of stories, and air-times have changed.



> That idea makes no sense.


Nah.  Makes perfect sense.  If it bleeds it leads is true more now than ever.  And some political stuff which I'll avoid.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> Stats on CPR aren't all that encouraging.  The gist of what I've read on the subject indicates that it's not often used, and seldom effective even when someone receives it.  Better than nothing, though, I guess.
> 
> I think some basic first aid is reasonable, but I'm not confident that even CPR certification will create people competent to administer CPR in a crisis.


Apparently there has been a shift in CPR methods recently to a stronger emphasis on heavy chest compressions and demphasizing rescue breaths.

CPR a Decade Ago vs. CPR Today: What's Changed
New resuscitation guidelines update CPR chest pushes - News on Heart.org
Why Did the Steps for CPR Change from A-B-C to C-A-B? | American Heart Association Authorized Provider of CPR, AED, & First Aid Training | EMC CPR & Safety Training

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> What do you base this on?  I base my statement on time and word-count surveys of news reports.  Don't take my word on it.  Do a search to find out if word-counts, number of stories, and air-times have changed.
> 
> Nah.  Makes perfect sense.  If it bleeds it leads is true more now than ever.  And some political stuff which I'll avoid.


The most complete list of school shootings I can find is on Wikipedia. If you know of a better place to look, I'm open.

Just based on a straight count of all shootings in the USA in schools (including colleges and universities):  To be clear, not all of these resulted in death, and not all were other students.  One, for example, was a college student who killed his parents and himself on a college campus.  The point, though, is that this is as complete a list of ALL school shootings I could locate.

1960s:  18
1970s:  30
1980s:  39
1990s:  62 (Columbine was by far the most destructive in 1999)
2000s:  63
2010-14:  92
2015 to Present:  55

I have no way to know whether this list is incomplete, but as I say above, this is the most complete list I can find.  We saw an uptick in the 70s, which based on a quick read of the list seems to be a result of all of the Vietnam war protests and such.  It seems to indicate that the 90s represent one significant uptick, and since 2010, we have seen a significant increase in the incident rate.

I also know that my kids have a vocabulary that was completely unknown to me, including things like soft and hard lockdowns, and my 9 year old's school has active shooter drills.  And I went to an urban high school where drive by shootings were known to occur.

I'm posting this not to make a political point, but to support my belief that (like it or not) we live in a different era, and our kids are facing things most of us did not.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> The most complete list of school shootings I can find is on Wikipedia. If you know of a better place to look, I'm open.


It's a slightly misleading stat and seeded with redefined information.  Here's a better source.

Mass Shootings Are Getting Deadlier, Not More Frequent







Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Someone just did invent this.  Free to schools too.  App for smart phones.
> 
> Smart Safety for Organizations - Mayday Safety
> 
> ...


there an APP Dave Grossman recommends, not sure if this is the same one.  it still relies on people with cell phones and teachers, students and LEO to sign up for the service.  that kind of defeats the effectiveness of it. not as good as a pull fire alarm style hard wired system but better than nothing.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> there an APP Dave Grossman recommends, not sure if this is the same one.  it still relies on people with cell phones and teachers, students and LEO to sign up for the service.  that kind of defeats the effectiveness of it. not as good as a pull fire alarm style hard wired system but better than nothing.


I hesitated before writing this.  I don't want to give important intel to the bad guys.  After thinking about it, I've decided that they probably already have it.

Fire Alarms have become part of the murderer's plan.  The Florida murderer pulled the fire alarm to draw out targets.  If everyone is exiting the school, dumping into the halls, they can't "shelter in place" inside class rooms and block the doors.  This is now part of their playbook.

Any sort of auto-report-auto-alarm system which does not have an independent verification process potentially suffers from a similar possibility of abuse.

Think about how a person bent on harm could misuse such an auto-reporting technology as a pull-switch "school shooter" alarm.  I'm sure you can come up with one or two.  I'm not going to volunteer any.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> It's a slightly misleading stat and seeded with redefined information.  Here's a better source.
> 
> Mass Shootings Are Getting Deadlier, Not More Frequent
> 
> ...


is that in schools, Kirk?  I think that article is conflating all mass shootings (4 or more victims in a public place).  Related, certainly, but not the same.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> is that in schools, Kirk?  I think that article is conflating all mass shootings (4 or more victims in a public place).  Related, certainly, but not the same.


Schools is just a subset.  It's where shooters have been driven to from other locations for a variety of reasons including legal, social, and political.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Schools is just a subset.  It's where shooters have been driven to from other locations for a variety of reasons including legal, social, and political.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


True, but an adult, for example, might legally carry a concealed weapon, which changes the dynamic completely.  Kids in a school cannot. There's crossover, but there are also some important differences.  And I want to also draw a distinction between "mass" shootings, and shootings in  schools.  According to the article you're referencing, the shooting in Great Mills, MD last week would not count, but I think it is relevant to this discussion even though only two people (one victim and the shooter) were killed, and one person was injured.


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## wab25 (Mar 27, 2018)

One of the issues I have with the current procedures: having the kids hide in the closet or huddled up together in a corner... is that it removes the need for skill by the shooter. Once he gets into a class room, he is presented with a barrel of kids to shoot at, as fast as he can pull the trigger... he doesn't even have to aim much, there are 20-30 people in that closet, not able to move.

I think running makes the shots harder as does distance. But we need to avoid the choke points where hundreds of kids are running through the same set of doors... this again removes the need of skill from the shooter.

I know we were asked not to talk about school construction here as it leads to politics.... But I would like to make a small suggestion. Every classroom needs 2 exit doors going different directions. Both should be the same heavy duty, lockable doors they are putting into schools now and they need to be lockable by a key. 

When an incident begins, all the doors are locked. When the shooter comes down the hall, the teacher sends the kids out the other door, locking it behind them. This puts 2 doors, between the kids and the bad guy. This will add more time for the shooter to get to the kids, as he has to get through 2 doors, not one. This is also adding distance, as the kids keep going. If they end up outside, they run to the far end of the field and keep going. If they are in a hallway, they run down the hallway spreading out, going for the exits, then across the fields. By only have they classrooms in the area of the shooter emptying, the hallways and doorways should not jam up, allowing kids to put distance between them and the shooter. Because the classrooms will empty in response to where the shooter goes, he will not be able to set up an ambush (unless they start working in teams). 

Responding in this fashion slows the shooters approach to the kids, puts more doors between the shooter and kids, puts distance between the kids and the shooter and gives the shooter much harder shots. The cost being the extra door on the class room.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> True, but an adult, for example, might legally carry a concealed weapon, which changes the dynamic completely.  Kids in a school cannot. There's crossover, but there are also some important differences.  And I want to also draw a distinction between "mass" shootings, and shootings in  schools.  According to the article you're referencing, the shooting in Great Mills, MD last week would not count, but I think it is relevant to this discussion even though only two people (one victim and the shooter) were killed, and one person was injured.


I think the other thing to keep in mind that kirk's stats show is percentage. Yours was an increase in the base number of shootings, I do not know how that compares to the overall high-school-aged population at the different time periods you mentioned, but I'd guess it has at least some impact on the drastic increase.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I think the other thing to keep in mind that kirk's stats show is percentage. Yours was an increase in the base number of shootings, I do not know how that compares to the overall high-school-aged population at the different time periods you mentioned, but I'd guess it has at least some impact on the drastic increase.


Good point.  

Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure the population of high school aged kids is significantly different now as in the 00s, but we're on pace to triple the number of incidents in the 10s as in the 00s.  (62 in the 90s, 63 in the 00s, and so far from 2010 to present, we're at 147).


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Any sort of auto-report-auto-alarm system which does not have an independent verification process potentially suffers from a similar possibility of abuse.


maybe we have different ideas on what this should entail.  i am not saying a on sight shooter system (i dont like to use that term, i prefer killer)  should be like a fire alarm,  but it should set police in motion.  we have the technology to link multiple systems together, a reverse 911 call could be sent to the school for verification from administrators or whatever is necessary.  but police need to be at the school quicker.  every second is one life.
we have technology we are not using.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> True, but an adult, for example, might legally carry a concealed weapon, which changes the dynamic completely.


I agree. Those are some of the reasons which I am referring to, driven by social, legal, and political reasons.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> I agree. Those are some of the reasons which I am referring to, driven by social, legal, and political reasons.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 I think we might agree on the problem, but not the solution.  But that's a discussion for another time.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> I think we might agree on the problem, but not the solution.  But that's a discussion for another time.


Maybe.  What I think is the source of the problem and what I think is the most effective solution are pretty much verboten in this thread.  Touches on way too much politics and social commentary.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> I think we might agree on the problem, but not the solution.  But that's a discussion for another time.


Yup. Problem itself is clear. What can solve that problem is a discussion for a different time/place. All we can discuss here is ways to try to alleviate the problem (teaching the teenagers) until a solution is found, or the problem disappears.


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## lklawson (Mar 27, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. Problem itself is clear. What can solve that problem is a discussion for a different time/place. All we can discuss here is ways to try to alleviate the problem (teaching the teenagers) until a solution is found, or the problem disappears.


There is a third solution, if unconventional.

If the problem is (shorthand) defined as douchbags shooting teenagers in schools, then if we make teenagers go away, there is no more problem!  

(I keed, I keed!)  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk (Thinking outside the box)


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2018)

I went to High School. Liked it so much I stayed an extra year! Later in life I worked in High Schools during troubled times. Still later, we used closed down schools in law enforcement training, entering, clearing and searching of buildings and all that. And the High School I attended had metal detectors all the way back in the mid seventies.

One thing I know for sure - there ain't nobody, and I mean NOBODY, who knows more about physically getting in and out of their own high school, especially the _sneaking back in without getting caught_ than High School boys. 

If you want to make High Schools more secure against intruders - involve the kids who go to those high schools. Not the Dean's List kids, but the....you know the ones. And involve them at the _end_ of their senior year, when they won't mind sharing all their secrets, it's down time anyway. Nobody knows more about high school buildings than the teenage boys who go there.


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> Hey guys.  I have like 5 minutes to post something, but I appreciate the discussion.
> 
> My thoughts, building on what I was thinking before, and after reading the comments, are that the real key here is preventative.  Once an event is occurring, the cards are stacked in the favor of the person who is armed.  Honestly, some of this is what I teach new supervisors to do.  We're not Bruce Willis types, but we are responsible for the safety of our employees.
> 
> ...


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> Stats on CPR aren't all that encouraging.  The gist of what I've read on the subject indicates that it's not often used, and seldom effective even when someone receives it.  Better than nothing, though, I guess.
> 
> I think some basic first aid is reasonable, but I'm not confident that even CPR certification will create people competent to administer CPR in a crisis.


CPR. you are dealing with dead people. You basically cant make the situation worse.

Combat carries?


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> CPR. you are dealing with dead people. You basically cant make the situation worse.
> 
> Combat carries?


Saw a video of Wil Willis, the host of Forged in Fire (an awesome game show), doing this stuff. 






Quick aside, but Wil Willis would be an excellent jits coach.  His break down of technique is excellent.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 17, 2018)

Steve said:


> Stats on CPR aren't all that encouraging.  The gist of what I've read on the subject indicates that it's not often used, and seldom effective even when someone receives it.  Better than nothing, though, I guess.



That's a fair summary of CPR...



> I think some basic first aid is reasonable, but I'm not confident that even CPR certification will create people competent to administer CPR in a crisis.



In the context of an active shooter, CPR is useless. If someone needs CPR after being shot, it likely means you're compressing an empty heart.


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## Steve (Jun 9, 2022)

So, where did we end up on this?  What advice should I give my 13 year old?  Serious question, and not interested in politics.  Let's just accept that guns are ubiquitous and exceedingly easy for anyone who wants one to legally acquire.  That is reality.  So, what is to be done?  

Bullet proof backpacks?  Might help in an emergency, but may also have long term emotional or mental impacts on kids.








						‘It's a knee-jerk reaction:’ Experts not sold on bulletproof backpacks
					

Considering a "bulletproof backpack" for you kid? We put them to the test.




					www.king5.com
				




Arm the teachers?  Though in Uvalde, the armed staffer didn't stop the bad guy from entering the school.  Credible opinions on this are mixed (being very generous)








						Texas teachers union survey finds that school employees don’t want to be armed
					

The survey, conducted by Texas American Federation of Teachers, comes two weeks after the Uvalde school shooting as Republicans call for more school employees to be armed.




					www.texastribune.org
				





			https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/21533687211038950
		


Hire more cops to guard the entrances?  








						The Prevalence and the Price of Police in Schools
					

Since the 1900s, U.S. public schools have employed a growing number of school resource officers (SROs) – defined here as sworn law enforcement officials. In 1975, only 1% of schools reported having police officers on site, but by 2018, approximately 58% of schools had at least one sworn law enfo ...




					education.uconn.edu
				




Send kids to mandatory krav maga classes?  

If you have the means, I think the most effective solution is to move to pretty much any other country, but that's impractical for most.  So, really... as discussions once again swirl around following another in an endless stream of active shooter situations in a school, most are throwing their hands in the air and saying, "Why does this keep happening?  Nothing can be done."  Is that true?  We just accept that each year, some kids die from cancer, some die from accidents, and some will die from active shooter situations.  Just a fact of life?  

And as I said in the OP years ago, this isn't intended to be political.  Rather, I'm genuinely looking for practical suggestions.


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## lklawson (Jun 9, 2022)

Steve said:


> and not interested in politics.


Doesn't sound like you aren't.



Steve said:


> Let's just accept that guns are ubiquitous and exceedingly easy for anyone who wants one to legally acquire.  That is reality.


Not really.  I didn't have to go through a background check when I bought my last car.  I did when I bought my last gun.




Steve said:


> So, what is to be done?
> 
> Bullet proof backpacks?  Might help in an emergency, but may also have long term emotional or mental impacts on kids.
> 
> ...


Long term emotional impact?  The same way that wearing a helmet when biking or seatbelts when in cars causes long term mental impact.  You know what kind of long term impact it will have?  On their backs.  Backbacks are already so heavy that their use is causing back and hip problems.  Level IV rated plates aren't particularly light and are comparatively bulky.  Adding the extra weight to something already over-weight is just going to lead to people not using the product.









						School Backpack Weight and Children Health
					

Experts say a student’s backpack should only be 10 percent of the youngster’s body weight. Here are some other tips on how to lessen the load your child carries.




					www.healthline.com
				






Steve said:


> Arm the teachers?  Though in Uvalde, the armed staffer didn't stop the bad guy from entering the school.


That was one resource officer to the 600 student population.  And, apparently, like the rest of the Uvalde Police Force, he didn't actually do his job.



Steve said:


> Credible opinions on this are mixed (being very generous)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They have a political agenda to push.  The real way to tell if it's wanted or not is to see how many teachers volunteer for the training when they are given the option.  Turns out that, depending on where and when, somewhere between 30 and 50% volunteer and most have to be turned away due to lack of resources; this from actual school training organizations FASTER Colorado and FASTER Ohio.

You can easily find other surveys which find the opposite.

Be careful about trusting "surveys." 



Steve said:


> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/21533687211038950
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So let's quote from this article:
_"What is the impact of SROs on students’ safety in schools? SROs are categorically police officers and, as such, their prevalence in schools raises questions regarding the safety of children, especially children of color, children living in poverty, and immigrant children. Decades of evidence demonstrates racial and ethnic disparities in policing. Black and Latine[xlviii] communities (youth and adults) are disproportionately subject to pedestrian and vehicle stops, citations, searches, arrests, and incarceration.[xlix] In addition to the rate of police contact, the nature of police contact harms communities of color. Incidents of police violence disproportionately impact Black individuals, who are 2.3 to 5 times more likely to be killed by police than whites.[l] Native and Latine populations are also at higher risk of being killed by police.[li]"_

Ah.  Cops are, by nature, racist.



Steve said:


> Send kids to mandatory krav maga classes?


Might be good for them but I doubt it would be helpful in what you are wanting to address.

What do we do?  Before Columbine most schools had multiple, unguarded, unlocked entrance points where pretty much anybody who wanted to could just walk in.  We learned that we needed restricted points of entry.

Before Columbine, it was assumed that armed people in a place were there for a hostage standoff so the default tactic was to go into siege mode.  After, we learned that the best tactic is for the very first officer on scene, even if it was just one cop with no body armor, including the SRO, to go hunt down the armed murderer, even if it meant the cop might be in danger, because, at the very worst, it takes the murderer's attention of off their preferred victim and usually ends the attack completely.

We learned that when a troubled person makes multiple threats to attack a school to not ignore it and pretend it'll be OK.

So what do we do?  We stop ignoring the lessons we've known for 30 years.  We don't allow a teacher to prop open a back door so that she can go get a smoke between classes, allowing a twisted murderer to ignore ingress points.  We tell SRO's that they actually do need to confront an active killer and the responding cops that they don't get to stand around outside for 75 minutes because they're afraid they might get shot at and, instead, tazing and handcuffing parents.  When a troubled person makes repeated overtures that they want to attack a school, we take it seriously and don't ignore it.

Basically, we already know what to do, they just didn't do any of it in Uvalde.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 9, 2022)

Thread locked.


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