# Wrist manipulation in MMA



## allenjp (May 5, 2008)

I know that "small joint manipulation" as in finger locks are against the rules, but what about wrist locks? Almost all the TMA's use wrist locks that seem to be at least fairly effective, but I have never really seen any used in MMA competition, is this because it is against the rules, or because they are just not as realistically effective as they seem. Or maybe it is because they are difficult to execute when someone is wearing gloves? Any ideas?


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## terryl965 (May 5, 2008)

I believe it is to hard to get control of the wrist during a MMA bout. This is just my opinion.


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## tellner (May 5, 2008)

There have been times in grappling class where I had the forearm perpendicular to the ground and put my weight on the bent wrist. It never got a tap, but sometimes it reduced the other guy's mobility enough for me to get a better position


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## allenjp (May 5, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I believe it is to hard to get control of the wrist during a MMA bout. This is just my opinion.


 
I see you train in Hapkido so I am sure that wrist locks and control is an integral part of your training. Do you think that this is difficult because of the style of fighting? Do you think these moves are more viable in a SD situation? If so, why?


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## terryl965 (May 5, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I see you train in Hapkido so I am sure that wrist locks and control is an integral part of your training. Do you think that this is difficult because of the style of fighting? Do you think these moves are more viable in a SD situation? If so, why?


 
Actually I am TKD and Okinawa Karate but have done both Combat and regular Hapkido. I believe they are not done because of the sport side of MMA , but they can be a vital asset to you SD stituation if you work them on a regular basis.


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## FearlessFreep (May 5, 2008)

wearing gloves makes it a bit hard.  Your gloves makes the grip harder to get  and the opponents glove protects their wrist.


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## D Dempsey (May 5, 2008)

I know that wrist locks are perfectly legal in MMA, but you rarely see them.  I've pulled them off a few times in BJJ, but it isn't a real high percentage thing.  The degree that you have to isolate the limb is much higher than if you were setting up an armbar, so there is a lot more room for error.  I still use the wrist attacks I learned in CMA in BJJ, but I use them as break grip.  Strangely enough that works great.


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## DavidCC (May 5, 2008)

it is illegal by most MMA rules to hold on to the gloves of your opponent.  This probably makes most wrist locks illegal in MMA bouts.


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## allenjp (May 5, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> I know that wrist locks are perfectly legal in MMA, but you rarely see them. I've pulled them off a few times in BJJ, but it isn't a real high percentage thing. The degree that you have to isolate the limb is much higher than if you were setting up an armbar, so there is a lot more room for error. I still use the wrist attacks I learned in CMA in BJJ, but I use them as break grip. Strangely enough that works great.


 
I also train in BJJ, and to be honest I am surprised that they don't train in more wrist control techniques. I have seen many oocasions where someone is trying to "post up" when in someone elses guard, and they leave their arms straight out grabbing onto their opponents clothing. It seems that this would be the perfect opportunity to grab the wrist, but unfortunately we don't do too much real sparring in my class so I haven't had many opportunities to try it.


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## allenjp (May 5, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> it is illegal by most MMA rules to hold on to the gloves of your opponent. This probably makes most wrist locks illegal in MMA bouts.


 

This makes more sense to me since most wrist manipulation techniques are performed by holding onto the hand...which would of course be holding onto the gloves.


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## allenjp (May 5, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> wearing gloves makes it a bit hard. Your gloves makes the grip harder to get and the opponents glove protects their wrist.


 
I kinda figured this would come into play, I've never competed with gloves so I didn't know for sure...


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## jks9199 (May 5, 2008)

I'd also suspect that the handwraps under the gloves and the design of the gloves, even for MMA, limit the usefulness and ability to attack the wrists.


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## D Dempsey (May 5, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> it is illegal by most MMA rules to hold on to the gloves of your opponent.  This probably makes most wrist locks illegal in MMA bouts.



This doesn't really apply to wrist lock, this just bans you grabbing the inside of the gloves.  I have seen a few, and I mean just a few, wrist lock submissions in MMA.  One of them was by Royce Gracie in Pride.



jks9199 said:


> I'd also suspect that the handwraps under the gloves and the design of the gloves, even for MMA, limit the usefulness and ability to attack the wrists.


You know I never considered that.  Your probably right.


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## theletch1 (May 6, 2008)

One of the biggest mistakes that I see new aikido-ka do when going for a wrist manipulation is allow their fingers to slide down a little onto uke's wrist. This splints the wrist and detracts greatly from the effectiveness of the manipulation.  Add gloves and hand wraps to the mix and you've effectively nullified any gain that you'd make from sankyo or ikkyo.


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## Perpetual White Belt (May 8, 2008)

The the hand wraps and gloves both brace the wrists, so it makes it almost impossible to get the full range of motion in a wrist lock.


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## Skpotamus (May 13, 2008)

It's actually pretty hard to grab anything at all with MMA gloves on.  Especially if you have wraps on underneath.  They fill the palm up quite a bit to make a sturdier fist, but leave you little room to actually grip something.  Making just grabbing an arm for an armbar difficult (you have to hook a lot more than grab), Making manipulations of the wrist a lot harder. 

In modern MMA, grabbing the gloves are illegal.  Which makes wrist locks almost impossible.  

If you watch a newer UFC, you will hear the ref constantly yell at the guy on bottom to not grab the gloves, when the guy on bottom is trying to control the wrists to not get punched.  Basically, anything from wrist forward is a no grab area.  


The other big problem is that MOST wrist locks taught in TMA's don't work on resisting opponents.  Getting them to work on trained, resisting opponents is almost impossible.  Especially standing.  Being able to strike with the knees, the other arm etc makes them very tough to get (joe schmoe on the street can be a different matter though, but it's still a lot harder than most schools train).  

Getting them on the ground is a bit easier, but still hard even without gloves.


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## jks9199 (May 13, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> The other big problem is that MOST wrist locks taught in TMA's don't work on resisting opponents. Getting them to work on trained, resisting opponents is almost impossible. Especially standing. Being able to strike with the knees, the other arm etc makes them very tough to get (joe schmoe on the street can be a different matter though, but it's still a lot harder than most schools train).


 
I disagree with this.  Many traditional wrist locks do work; for example, most cops are quite familiar with the "gooseneck" lock, which is a basic wrist lock and which does work, quite well, so long as the subject is feeling pain.  

The difficulty is that many places don't teach the student to apply them well, and with an emphasis on how it works when you meet resistance.  That's not nearly the same thing as saying they don't work.


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## SilatFan (May 13, 2008)

As far as BJJ goes ive seen Ronaldo Jacare Souza use the wrist lock in competition successfully and I believe _Fredson Paixao won a gold medal in the mundials by using a wrist lock in the finals.  I know that experts like _Professor Osvaldo Alves and Sergio Penha also advocate using them a lot as well.


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## Skpotamus (May 14, 2008)

The "gooseneck hold" as taught from the escort position when the armbar is resisted by the subject attempting to curl out of it can and does work in that context, you escorting a subject and them passively resisting by curling and pulling away from you.  

However, I have yet to see one MMA fighter escort another fighter around the cage.  

Most TMA's teach the majority of their locks from static assaults, IE, the guy comes in with a punch and stops while you deflect and catch their wrist, then step into a wrist lock of some variety while the attacker stands there and lets you.  Or the most common attack in almost ANY dojo in america.... the dreaded wrist grab and stand there while they lock you up.  

While you can get some of the traditional wrist locks to work, you can't do them the way most schools teach them.  Too many never get past the introductory teaching phase of a student sticking out their arm and letting you lock them up.  If they aren't doing it in unrehearsed free sparring, then the locks are worthless to that individual.  Very few schools I've seen teach locks where they work best from, the clinch with a lot of body contact to off balance your opponent.  Think of it as Judo Kuzushi with Jiu-Jitsu or Aikido locks.  It's ugly, and "bad technique" as I was told on many occasions, but it works.  

In BJJ or any type of submisison grappling, the wrist lock is a lot easier to apply since you can grab the hands and you aren't hampered by wraps and gloves.


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## zDom (May 14, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> The other big problem is that MOST wrist locks taught in TMA's don't work on resisting opponents.  Getting them to work on trained, resisting opponents is almost impossible.  Especially standing.  Being able to strike with the knees, the other arm etc makes them very tough to get (joe schmoe on the street can be a different matter though, but it's still a lot harder than most schools train).




Oh really? That's funny, because our dan ranking curriculum includes training wrist locks with a FULLY RESISTING partner.

My instructor says, "If you still have hair on your lower arm after training these, you aren't resisting hard enough." Sucks because the harder you resist, the more it hurts.

I don't know where you get your information  from people learning/teaching wrist locks out of a book?  but you are completely wrong.

Poorly trained people using wrist locks undoubtedly fail  as they would with many other techniques.


But someone who is well trained in wrist locks knows not only how to correctly apply a lock, but WHEN to apply a lock. And what makes you think they aren't applied after softening up a target with strikes?

I won't sit by and let unsubstantiated ******** be posted like this.

The main reason wrist locks aren't effective in MMA matches are the wrists are heavily taped. Period.


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## Skpotamus (May 14, 2008)

Congratulations, it sounds like you school does a great job. Recall that I said MOST, not ALL. 

I do have a few questions for you though. How do you increase resistance? Do you simply grab your vicitm as hard as you can and stand there while they try to do the lock like most schools do (I've only been to about 30 or so schools and all but one did their techniques this way) or do you make your attacks realistic? Outside of a dojo, a person will not grab your wrist and stand there looking at you while you try to break their wrist. People grab other people to push or pull them into something. Typically either a van, alley, wall, punch or weapon, the attacker isn't going to stop if you block that first attack and let you try to break their arm, they keep on coming with more and more attacks until you stop them by hurting them. When you soften up your opponent by striking them, they typically let go and you lose the lock anyways.  

I have yet to see a wrist lock work when someone grabbed the other person and tried to actually attack them in an unrehearsed manner (meaning the defender didn't know what the attacker was going to do before they did it).  

Out of curiousity, have you ever fought in a MMA match before? If you have, or been around many mma matches, you'll find that wrists aren't heavily taped.  Some places and fighters don't use it at all.  Wraps go around your metacarpals and carpals to compress the bones in your hands and pad the knuckles a little bit, not so much around your wrist.  If you put too much around the wrist, it actually makes the gloves a pain in the butt to slip on and leaves them loose, as well as creates a great fulcrum to break your wrist while punching.  

When I first started fighting mma, it was under pancrase rules, we didn't wear gloves or wraps, and could only strike with open palms. I never saw any wristlocks work during pancrase matches, although I did see a few attempted (from failed juji-gatame armbar attempts where the defender grabs their own hands to stop the arm from being extended), none succeeded because they slipped off while trying due to the sweat and the opponent moving.  We did have a Aiki-Jiu-jitsu black belt come in to fight a challenge match though... he never even got close to getting a lock on his opponent (to be fair, he was fighting a guy who already had 3 fights and was only 45 lbs lighter).  Wearing gloves does make it very hard to grab anything though, and since it's ILLEGAL TO HOLD ANOTHER FIGHTERS GLOVES IN MMA, it makes it much more difficult to get a wrist lock.  

When I teach Defensive Tactics to Indiana Law Enforcement, wrist locks and armbars are used as restraining tools against passively resisting subjects, both of the locks are taught from the escort position (for a right handed officer, subject on officers right side and slightly forward (officer roughly 7-8 o'clock relative to subject facing direction), subjects left wrist being gribbed by officers left hand, with officers right hand on subjects' triceps).  When the subject attempts to curl their arm, the officer goes into the transport wrist lock or "gooseneck hold", if the subject tries to pull their arm out straight, they go into an armbar.  If the subject gets their arm out, they abandon the lock and proceed up to the next force level.  

I got my information from my real world experience in real altercations working security for frat parties, in real fights, in teaching prison guards and police how to stop bad guys from trying to kill them, as well as my professional fighting career (brief and unspectacular as it was), my instructors experience from a liftetime of training and working in both the military and law enforcement and my own experience training since 1989.  Oh, and I read a few books too


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## DavidCC (May 15, 2008)

old addage : grappling counters striking, qinna counters grappling, and striking counters qinna.  

So trying to lock up somone intent on striking you is not the most appropriate use of qinna techniques.


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## Selfcritical (May 15, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I also train in BJJ, and to be honest I am surprised that they don't train in more wrist control techniques. I have seen many oocasions where someone is trying to "post up" when in someone elses guard, and they leave their arms straight out grabbing onto their opponents clothing. It seems that this would be the perfect opportunity to grab the wrist, but unfortunately we don't do too much real sparring in my class so I haven't had many opportunities to try it.


 
A BJJ class where you don't do much sparring? Buh?


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## allenjp (May 15, 2008)

Selfcritical said:


> A BJJ class where you don't do much sparring? Buh?


 
We do spar, but I am still just a newbie there and at the lower levels they don't really let us "go at it", most sparring we do at this level is limited to specific sweeps, chokes, and locks that we are learning that day...It's a Gracie Barra school.


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## Bodhisattva (May 15, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I know that "small joint manipulation" as in finger locks are against the rules, but what about wrist locks? Almost all the TMA's use wrist locks that seem to be at least fairly effective, but I have never really seen any used in MMA competition, is this because it is against the rules, or because they are just not as realistically effective as they seem. Or maybe it is because they are difficult to execute when someone is wearing gloves? Any ideas?



I don't think wrist locks are typically effective against aggressive, athletic opponents, with even a bit of wrestling ability.

They are also not great for self-defense, either, against a determined opponent.

To stop a determined opponent, you have to break a major joint.  The wrist won't do.

They are also fairly easy to prevent, and fairly easy to escape.

I can only think of a few situations where I like a wrist lock.. no.. wait.. I actually can't.


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## zDom (May 15, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> Congratulations, it sounds like you school does a great job. Recall that I said MOST, not ALL.



We like to think so  As far as I know, nobody has ever quit because of a lack of faith in the techniques, but because the workouts were too hard.




Skpotamus said:


> I do have a few questions for you though. How do you increase resistance? Do you simply grab your vicitm as hard as you can and stand there while they try to do the lock like most schools do (I've only been to about 30 or so schools and all but one did their techniques this way) or do you make your attacks realistic?



Basic movements are learned without resistance to start with. Learning the correct movement is the goal early on.

Advanced training is progressively more realistic.




Skpotamus said:


> Outside of a dojo, a person will not grab your wrist and stand there looking at you while you try to break their wrist. People grab other people to push or pull them into something. Typically either a van, alley, wall, punch or weapon, the attacker isn't going to stop if you block that first attack and let you try to break their arm, they keep on coming with more and more attacks until you stop them by hurting them. When you soften up your opponent by striking them, they typically let go and you lose the lock anyways.



FWIW, the day I got my jaw broke (before I started martial arts), the two guys held on to my wrists for an extended period while the third worked me over with a tire tool. Sure wish I had known some basic wrist locks on that day.

And while basic wrist locks are introduced from a opponent's grab, more advanced techniques we grab THEM and apply the lock. Some of these movements start from 6 feet away.



Skpotamus said:


> I have yet to see a wrist lock work when someone grabbed the other person and tried to actually attack them in an unrehearsed manner (meaning the defender didn't know what the attacker was going to do before they did it).


 
While usually these take a great deal of training to "make them work," you'd be surprised. A recent example of something that surprised us is, a brown belt's little brother had been shown in passing a variation of what JMAs call "kote hono gaeshi" from a shirt grab &#8212; an adductive wristlock that breaks or causes significant pain through extreme ulnar deviation.

Although he didn't have any training to speak of, he successfully applied this lock while being assaulted. It put that guy completely out of the fight. He doesn't know if it sprained or broke the guy's wrist, but that guy was DONE. He ended up walking away from that altercation (after also dealing with the second attacker) unhurt.




Skpotamus said:


> Out of curiousity, have you ever fought in a MMA match before? If you have, or been around many mma matches, you'll find that wrists aren't heavily taped.  Some places and fighters don't use it at all.  Wraps go around your metacarpals and carpals to compress the bones in your hands and pad the knuckles a little bit, not so much around your wrist.  If you put too much around the wrist, it actually makes the gloves a pain in the butt to slip on and leaves them loose, as well as creates a great fulcrum to break your wrist while punching.



I didn't know that. I have covered local MMA fights for the newspaper I work for; they tape their wrists. MMA events on TV I've watched also tape their fighters' wrists. I thought it was standard fight preparation for that sport. It's good to hear that some fight without taped wrists.

Haven't fought in any MMA matches; at 40 years old I value my well-being too much. Win or lose, there is always the risk of a significant injury. 

Hapkido is focused on self defense and it is hard to defend yourself or train to defend yourself while recouperating from an injury.






Skpotamus said:


> When I first started fighting mma, it was under pancrase rules, we didn't wear gloves or wraps, and could only strike with open palms. I never saw any wristlocks work during pancrase matches, although I did see a few attempted (from failed juji-gatame armbar attempts where the defender grabs their own hands to stop the arm from being extended), none succeeded because they slipped off while trying due to the sweat and the opponent moving.  We did have a Aiki-Jiu-jitsu black belt come in to fight a challenge match though... he never even got close to getting a lock on his opponent (to be fair, he was fighting a guy who already had 3 fights and was only 45 lbs lighter).  Wearing gloves does make it very hard to grab anything though, and since it's ILLEGAL TO HOLD ANOTHER FIGHTERS GLOVES IN MMA, it makes it much more difficult to get a wrist lock.


 



Skpotamus said:


> When I teach Defensive Tactics to Indiana Law Enforcement, wrist locks and armbars are used as restraining tools against passively resisting subjects, both of the locks are taught from the escort position (for a right handed officer, subject on officers right side and slightly forward (officer roughly 7-8 o'clock relative to subject facing direction), subjects left wrist being gribbed by officers left hand, with officers right hand on subjects' triceps).  When the subject attempts to curl their arm, the officer goes into the transport wrist lock or "gooseneck hold", if the subject tries to pull their arm out straight, they go into an armbar.  If the subject gets their arm out, they abandon the lock and proceed up to the next force level.


 
This principle is trained in our HKD system beginning in the middle gup (under blackbelt) ranks. We train many techniques so that, if resisted, we go into another technique &#8212; could be another wristlock, could be a throw; strikes are often involved.



Skpotamus said:


> I got my information from my real world experience in real altercations working security for frat parties, in real fights, in teaching prison guards and police how to stop bad guys from trying to kill them, as well as my professional fighting career (brief and unspectacular as it was), my instructors experience from a liftetime of training and working in both the military and law enforcement and my own experience training since 1989.  Oh, and I read a few books too



What works for prison guards and police who train techiques on occassion is going to be much more limited than what works for someone who dedicates themselves to a lifetime of regular training.

As mentioned in previous posts over the years here, I've been assaulted many, many times over my lifetime since I was in 2nd grade at the bus stop to potentially lethal assaults at bars.

Wrist locking is not for everybody. It is a long-term investment, for most people. Some people will never be able to use them effectively, perhaps.

But doesn't that also ring true for say, a basic punch? Doesn't mean punching is ineffective; it just means some people can't punch well.

But for those who "get it" and train diligently, wrist locks are a VERY useful tool that can still be used long after the ability to kick, throw or punch hard have fallen by the wayside.


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## allenjp (May 15, 2008)

I watch a lot of videos of street fights because I like to see what will really happen if attacked. It surprises me sometimes but it is a VERY common tactic for an attacker to grab onto the victims clothing and hold it with one hand while punching with the other. Most of the time this is difficult for the victim to overcome, because they  don't know how to take a punch or two and when they get hit they do nothing other than try to shield their face from the blows. Obviously I don't think most pro fighters would employ this tactic, but I don't anticipate getting attacked by many pro fighters. Most of them are too worried about their careers to be fighting on the streets. And if one does attack me one day, I'd like to think I could recognize the fact that I was dealing with a trained fighter and adjust my tactics accordingly. There are also ways to use feints and other such techniques to trick your opponent into exposing their arm to you.


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## Odin (May 16, 2008)

Wrist locks do not work in MMA because of the hand wrapes and the glove rule simple as.

Saying that though im sure i have seen some wrist lock tap outs in Pride.

I think one thing everyone is missing her is when they talk of resisting opponents  is the skill level, someone who doesnt know what they are doing can resist all they want your still more then likely will get the hold but if you have someone resisting that knows what he is doing and knows escapes then this is a different matter all together and since we are talking about MMA here most do.


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## Skpotamus (May 18, 2008)

zDom said:


> Basic movements are learned without resistance to start with. Learning the correct movement is the goal early on.
> 
> Advanced training is progressively more realistic.


That's how we prepare as well, we have them start with no resistance, and only light grabs, then work up to full out attacks with some padding


FWIW, the day I got my jaw broke (before I started martial arts), the two guys held on to my wrists for an extended period while the third worked me over with a tire tool. Sure wish I had known some basic wrist locks on that day.
[/quote]
Ouch, having three people attack you with weapons is a nightmare scenario, congrats on surviving (many people don't).  Do you think any of your wrist locks you know now would've helped you in that situation?  



zDom said:


> And while basic wrist locks are introduced from a opponent's grab, more advanced techniques we grab THEM and apply the lock. Some of these movements start from 6 feet away.


That's actually how i teach most of my locks, instead of reactionary defenses, as initialized attacks entering into your opponent with strikes and initiating a clinch.  



zDom said:


> While usually these take a great deal of training to "make them work," you'd be surprised. A recent example of something that surprised us is, a brown belt's little brother had been shown in passing a variation of what JMAs call "kote hono gaeshi" from a shirt grab  an adductive wristlock that breaks or causes significant pain through extreme ulnar deviation.
> 
> Although he didn't have any training to speak of, he successfully applied this lock while being assaulted. It put that guy completely out of the fight. He doesn't know if it sprained or broke the guy's wrist, but that guy was DONE. He ended up walking away from that altercation (after also dealing with the second attacker) unhurt.


That's impressive, I'm not up on my names anymore, but if it's the lock I think it is, it's a very unpleasant one.  His ability to apply it is impressive.  



zDom said:


> I didn't know that. I have covered local MMA fights for the newspaper I work for; they tape their wrists. MMA events on TV I've watched also tape their fighters' wrists. I thought it was standard fight preparation for that sport. It's good to hear that some fight without taped wrists.
> 
> Haven't fought in any MMA matches; at 40 years old I value my well-being too much. Win or lose, there is always the risk of a significant injury.


When i first started fighting, it was under pancrase rules, when they switched over to full NHB (at the time it was still called that) rules, we were allowed to wear gloves, but couldn't wrap.  I've caught quite a few UFC events that showed fighters not wearing wraps under their gloves (matt serra comes to mind)



zDom said:


> This principle is trained in our HKD system beginning in the middle gup (under blackbelt) ranks. We train many techniques so that, if resisted, we go into another technique  could be another wristlock, could be a throw; strikes are often involved.
> 
> What works for prison guards and police who train techiques on occassion is going to be much more limited than what works for someone who dedicates themselves to a lifetime of regular training.


True, but people who find themselves in those jobs have to justify their actions to a disciplinary board and a lawsuit after the fact.  When teaching LEO's and prison guards ( a large number of our school) we have to keep that in mind.  If they can't claim that they used a portion of the PPCT curriculum that is taught, the department and the officer can be held liable.  So we have to be careful that any of the locks we show them are similar to the transport wrist lock (gooseneck hold), or variations of the armbar, so that if they injur a suspect, and the suspect sues, they can still be covered by their department.  It sucks, but then, the justice system is designed to protect the criminals and the wallets of the dept, not the officers.  
For instance, in Indiana, a LEO isn't allowed to strike the head of a subject unless deadly force is justified.  However, a subject striking an officer in the head isn't considered deadly force in most cases (unless large discrepency of force issues).  



zDom said:


> As mentioned in previous posts over the years here, I've been assaulted many, many times over my lifetime since I was in 2nd grade at the bus stop to potentially lethal assaults at bars.
> 
> Wrist locking is not for everybody. It is a long-term investment, for most people. Some people will never be able to use them effectively, perhaps.
> 
> ...


Agreed, wrist locks can and do work, especially if you train them properly (using a logical progression from just learning the movements to using them against a full out assault), they do take a lot of work to get down, but can be worth it. (I've had a few instances of using joint locks successfully in real situations),  I just have found far too many schools that don't train realistically.  The local hapkido school is a prime example, their classes never go beyond the learning level of joint locking (no resistance), and they never even spar or drill, just use pads for striking and slow motion SD.


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## zDom (May 19, 2008)

Yep. The ability to apply wrist lock or wrist escape would have made a significant difference in that situation. It is probably why I find that hapkido is the art for me, among other reasons.


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