# South American Martial Arts?



## arnisador (Mar 29, 2002)

Are there South American martial arts other than BJJ and capoeira that are still extant?


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## fist of fury (Mar 30, 2002)

Isn't coeperia a south american art also?


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## Kirk (Mar 31, 2002)

Good call!  Brazil is so easily forgotten


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## Cthulhu (Mar 31, 2002)

There's the Venezuelan stick fighting system, Garrote Larense, that many say is similar to arnis/escrima.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Apr 14, 2002)

http://www.usadojo.com/abouttaiyando.htm



> TAIYANDO is a Brazilian Self Defense method, although the name TAIYANDO is Chinese and means "Way of the Sun".


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## DJDragon (Apr 17, 2002)

Would anyone call Vale Tudo a Brazillian Martial Art?


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## KumaSan (Apr 17, 2002)

Personally I think of Vale Tudo as a type of competition, like point sparring, continuous sparring, etc, rather than a style of fighting, but that could be debateable either way.


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## arnisador (Apr 30, 2002)

Would people consider South American martial arts like capoeira Western martial arts? Does it matter whether they are indigenous arts as opposed to systems like BJJ, which is a Judo variant?

I'd have to say that capoeira is a Western martial art, myself.


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## KumaSan (Apr 30, 2002)

I'm going to agree on the capoeira. I've been told it has its roots in Africa, which is still Western as far as the martial arts are concerned. What about that Garrotte Latense?


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## arnisador (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KumaSan _
> 
> *I'm going to agree on the capoeira. I've been told it has its roots in Africa, which is still Western as far as the martial arts are concerned. What about that Garrotte Latense? *



I posted some links for this Venezuelan system here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=551

It seems to be stickfighting with a strong Spanish fencing influence.


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## KickingDago (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *There's the Venezuelan stick fighting system, Garrote Larense, that many say is similar to arnis/escrima.
> 
> Cthulhu *


 



Aside from garrote larense i came across some other venezuelan styles and i was wondering if anyone had info on the following styles:

h Sanjal:

Is very similar to Shorinji kempo in its goho/juho practice, but of Venezuelan origin. It includes ground techniques and weapons practice as Venezuelan traditional tools (machete, palo, cuchillo, etc.)

h Broma:

Knife, machete and Stick fighting including African Head Butting from West and Central Africa along with stand up wrestling


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## arnisador (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KickingDago _
> 
> *Sanjal:
> 
> Is very similar to Shorinji kempo in its goho/juho practice, but of Venezuelan origin. It includes ground techniques and weapons practice as Venezuelan traditional tools (machete, palo, cuchillo, etc.)*



Do you mean it's native to Venezuela, or that it's Shorinji kempo as modified by a Venezuelan?


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jun 20, 2002)

I also consider capoeira a western art, as it originated in Africa. Technically, this art is referred to as Afro-brazillian, due to the change of the art from Portugeuse influence.  Any capoeristas out there?:asian: :asian:


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## KickingDago (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> Do you mean it's native to Venezuela, or that it's Shorinji kempo as modified by a Venezuelan? *




from what i understood from the site. it is venezuelan in origins, I'm trying to look for the site from where i got the informations originally and i will post the link as soon as I can.  I also spoke with a friend of mine from venezuela, he did mention some "weird" native systems, most of them in african (more tham european) origins.   Pretty cool stuff huh? Don't worry soon as i found  more out these styles, I'll share it with you paesan...

regards


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## arnisador (Jun 20, 2002)

Thanks *KickingDago*, and please do post the links(s)!


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## Cthulhu (Jul 4, 2002)

Several years ago, there was an article in a martial arts magazine (which, of course, I can't remember) that had an article on a fella claiming to teach Aztec martial arts.

I found this hard to swallow, and since then, I have never seen anything on it again.

Has anyone else happened upon that article, or heard anything on it?

Cthulhu


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## Morpheus (Jul 4, 2002)

There's also Luta Livra which is basically no-gi submission wrestling. Brazillian jiu jutsu was too expensive for a lot of people to afford, so they went and trained in this this style instead.

If a Luta Livra fighter was successful in competitions, he would usually use some of the money to then go and buy BJJ lessons in a good academy.

There is a lot of competition between the two styles in Brazil, with LL generally being associated with quite humble beginnings.


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## KickingDago (Jul 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *Several years ago, there was an article in a martial arts magazine (which, of course, I can't remember) that had an article on a fella claiming to teach Aztec martial arts.
> 
> ...



Yeah I believe the dude called the discipline "Yamochita" he had a site somewhere that maybe I should post.  Many people expressed concerns about this style in other forums, but if you ask me I don't think is "the real thing".  Another dude had a add in the last pages of black belt magazine about aztec stick fighting or "mano de guera", again I don't know how "real" these styles are, there are alot of people out there who take karate classes for few years then mix it up with some arnis then wake up one day and claim to be the only people on the planet who have inherited the secret fighting arts of a lost culture that existed thousands of years  ago.


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## Arthur (Aug 27, 2002)

Here in Massachusetts, Mario Dominguez teaches some Argentianian Martial Art. One name I've heard him use is Esgrima Criolla.

I went to a seminar of his, and there was some pretty cool stuff. Some of the stuff he showed or discussed was Long knife (like Bowie), horse quirt (rebenque sp?), poncho, and the bolo (the throwing weapon). He also talked about horsemanship skills.

The movements definately had a western (European) flavor to them.

He's an excellent martial artist and I enjoyed his seminar a lot.


Arthur


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## arnisador (Aug 27, 2002)

There's a Venezuelan stick-fighting system called garrote larense (I may not have the spelling perfectly correct) that has a real fencing flair to it. See this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=551


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## Gaucho (Jan 30, 2003)

Thanks Arthur for letting me know about this thread.

I am originally from Argentina. More importantly, my Dad spent much of his time growing up on his Grandad's ranch and had an opportunity to learn much from his Grandad, his uncles, and the other gauchos that worked the ranch.

I trained with my dad in Esgrima Criolla- the Gaucho style of knifefighting- throughout my youth.

Esgrima Criolla was very much influenced by the Spanish Style of Swordmanship. The Gauchos essentially translated Spanish Rapier, Rapier and Dagger, and Espada Ancha (broadsword) work to the long knife (facon o daga), the double knife,  the long knife and quirt (rebenque), the long knife and poncho, and the long knife and bolo.

Esgrima Criolla (EC) is more point (estocada o punalada) oriented than edge oriented, although naturally all the usual slashes, rips, hooks, and so on are utilized as the situation demands. The knife is held lightly in forward grip until the moment of impact. EC also emphasizes the snapcut (hachazo) to the head, and the backcut (rebes). 

EC footwork is very Spanish in form, following the dictates of Carranza and Thibeault's Circle. It is subtle and deceptive, using changes in cadence and direction while walking around the circle to create misalignments in time and space that allow for entry. Shuffling, crossover stepping, angular stepping, coil stepping, lunging, En Quadrada, Passada baha are all utilized.

Many enganyos are also used to create momentary gaps in the opponent's defenses.

In different regions of Argentina, slightly different styles prevailed. Some Gauchos only fought single knife, others always double knife, others always knife in strong hand, rebenque in weak hand, others still with the poncho partially wrapped around the weak hand.

I hope this gives you guys an idea of how my ancestors fought.

Best Regards,

Mario


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## arnisador (Jan 30, 2003)

When fighting single knife in this system, do you make use of the empty hand or do you keep it out of the way, fencing-style?


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## Gaucho (Jan 31, 2003)

Arnisador ,

As I'm sure you know, the knife dictates the fight. The gaucho's knives- the Facon and the Daga- are long (12"- 16" blades), thin, with a foible and forte, and fully guarded. They encourage a type of largo range modified swordplay where the live hand comes into play much less than with short blades.

Best Regards,

Mario


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## Gaucho (Jan 31, 2003)

If any of you have ever had the opportunity to put on the fencing masks and cross parrying daggers with Jim Keating or one of his senior guys, visualize that. Then imagine Maestro Ramon Martinez of the Spanish School of Rapier dueling. Esgrima Criolla falls between those two.

Mario


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## Gaucho (Jan 31, 2003)

Oh, FYI, if you guys want to see what an Argentine Rebenque looks like, click on the link to my instructor's profile below. In the picture, I am holding a rebenque in the left hand and my incredible Hossom Duelist in the right hand. The Duelist looks much like a Facon.

The rebenque's strap is wrapped around the left hand, leaving the handle (cabo) which is of dense wood covered in rawhide, free to swing like a mace. The rebenque is chambered as I have it in the pic over the shoulder, or simply hanging from the hand. 

The rebenque is used to parry the adversary's blade, attack his blade arm, or his head. It will easily crack a skill and many were killed that way. Some gauchos were even known to prefer their rebenques to their knives.

Mario


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## arnisador (Jan 31, 2003)

Thanks, as a Filipino martial artist I find this very interesting--there are so many similarities. In the FMA we say that the weapons training leads to empty-hand skill--do you feel the same in Esgrima Criolla?

It looks like you've studied a great many arts--it must be difficult to fit in a physician's schedule. What do you consider your primary system?


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## Gaucho (Jan 31, 2003)

You're more than welcome. Its nice to share a bit of my heritage with interested individuals.

I complete agree with you that the principles learned in blade work translate completely to EHs. The opposite is does not hold.

As far as long blade work teaching EHs skills, I have no doubt that this is true. Just look at JKD, which is clearly fencing based. The way my dad taught me to fight EHed, however, was kind of a streetfighter's boxing style with elbows, knees, and lowline kicks thrown in. It was how he had learned to fight EHed over the years, but he did not relate it back to the bladework per say. He _was_ very good with improvised weapons and showed me many a good trick that saved my *** several times. Clearly this came from his blade training.

What are my primary arts now? Well, that's hard to say. I am at this point along my path most interested in discovering the universal principles of combat which underlie and transcend any one style or system. If I had to pin myself down, I guess that I would have to say it really depends on what I'm doing/teaching. Short blade I definitely use Amok! principles- they're the best I've ever learned. Long knife I use bowie or EC depending on how good my opponent is. Sword depends on the type of sword obviously. Stick is an amalgem of Doce Pares, LAMECO, and Amok!. EHs is whatever works in the flow of the moment, but clearly at this point in my training I prefer Kuntao and Silat, with a goodly portion of Fu Jow, Amok! Analytical Combatives, and what Systema I've learned to date sprinkled in. I make an effort to practice the curriculum of each art in sequence so that I can still teach each pure art if asked, but I am definitely a mutt when it comes to using them .

Am I busy between work as a doc, as medical director of my group, my family, my training, and my teaching? There aren't enough hours in a day sometimes. But, I was training before I even knew what training is, so I can't be me without it.

Pardon my rambling.

Best Regards,

Mario


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## Infight (Feb 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DJDragon _
> *Would anyone call Vale Tudo a Brazillian Martial Art? *


 
      Vale Tudo is a type of competiton, not a martial art, but there are places here in Brazil that you can train for Vale Tudo


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## Infight (Feb 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Morpheus _
> *There's also Luta Livra which is basically no-gi submission wrestling. Brazillian jiu jutsu was too expensive for a lot of people to afford, so they went and trained in this this style instead.
> 
> If a Luta Livra fighter was successful in competitions, he would usually use some of the money to then go and buy BJJ lessons in a good academy.
> ...



       HAHA, Luta Livre is Wrestling in Portuguese, and its not that cheap here to pratice, there are just few places to do it, but indeed there are champs of grappling that guys of wrestling get in


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## Infight (Feb 25, 2003)

Hi Gaucho, thats cool to have an Argentino here, hope to see you in other posts, just hope youre not a Boca Juniors Fan, lol, see you


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## arnisador (Feb 25, 2003)

Thanks for the information on the Portuguese scene!


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## Infight (Feb 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *http://www.usadojo.com/abouttaiyando.htm *



  Hey Taiyando dont count, its some crazy brazilian guy who tried to copy tae kwon do, and to some graps on it, ridiculous.
  if that count, there are a lot of martial arts here like: EQUIDO, DUAL SYSTEM, SUBMISSION JIU-JITSU FIGHTING, and a lot of that "created" martial arts, that will dissapear in a few years, ever created just to gather money, usually BJJ teachers that couldnt get fame or students, than created some other martial art to gather newbies on MA, to take their money, as happen all over the world.


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## Infight (Feb 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Would people consider South American martial arts like capoeira Western martial arts? Does it matter whether they are indigenous arts as opposed to systems like BJJ, which is a Judo variant?
> 
> I'd have to say that capoeira is a Western martial art, myself. *



   I must desagree. Capoeira is a martial art created on Brazil, it was done by sons of slaves from Africa, but a long time after being here, they mixed some dancing from their fathers with some martial objective, so to disguise their training ( cause if the lord of the place saw the go punished ), they pretended to be dancing and among it they kept praticing CAPOEIRA.


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## FDVargas0351 (Mar 21, 2004)

There is a knife system which has a very good reputation in the knife community that comes from Argentina.  The art was used by the Gauchos, or argentinian cow boys.  There is an excellent but hard to find book on the subject entitled escrima criolla.


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## arnisador (Mar 21, 2004)

We've had some posts on Argentinan knife fighting before. The Search command should turn up a few.


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## Bigodinho (Aug 3, 2004)

ThuNder_FoOt said:
			
		

> I also consider capoeira a western art, as it originated in Africa. Technically, this art is referred to as Afro-brazillian, due to the change of the art from Portugeuse influence. Any capoeristas out there?:asian: :asian:


I am a capoeirista.  If there are any questions on the art, please ask.


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## Snowmeow (Dec 6, 2004)

Infight said:
			
		

> Hey Taiyando dont count, its some crazy brazilian guy who tried to copy tae kwon do, and to some graps on it, ridiculous.
> if that count, there are a lot of martial arts here like: EQUIDO, DUAL SYSTEM, SUBMISSION JIU-JITSU FIGHTING, and a lot of that "created" martial arts, that will dissapear in a few years, ever created just to gather money, usually BJJ teachers that couldnt get fame or students, than created some other martial art to gather newbies on MA, to take their money, as happen all over the world.


First, Taiyando don'y try to copy Tae Kwon Do, but is raised from the earlier Tai'Yang Karate-Do. It is always evoluting, being this the reason of the new name.
Second, this "crazy Brazilian Guy" is a Master who teaches his art since 1975. A lot of time, not?
Third, I never heard about this "Dual System". And I don't know nothing about Equi-do and new Jiu-Jitsu fighting styles to spread untruths, as you do.
Fourth, you NEVER should to underestimate new martial arts only because they aren't Japanese, Chinese, Korean or American. This, yes, is ridiculous.
If you are Brazilian, try to challenge a Taiyando Black Belt and you will see who is the "Ridiculous", here...


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## Livio Girotto (Dec 10, 2004)

Hello:

        My name is Livio Girotto, I have been training Juego del Garrote (Garrote Larense) for about sixteen years, under the teachings of Maestro Mercédez Pérez.

         As far as I know (and I have been practicing and teaching martial arts since 1972) there are no venezuelan empty hand martial arts.

         If you are interested in Garrote Larense, consult www.garrotelarense.org, or contact me trough livio@garrotelarense.org

         One more thing, Garrote Larense has nothing to do with Kali/escrima, it is different in every aspect, and none of the Spanish people that went to Phillipines traveled to America by the times of the Spanish Empire.

          Regards,

                           Livio


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## Taker87 (Feb 9, 2008)

There's a south american martial art called "Rumi Maki" taught by a peruvian martial artist. It's claimed to be the martial art of the incas. Interested? Go to Rumimaki.com to read about the disciplines of the south american martial art plus you can purchase the book at this website.


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## Taker87 (Feb 9, 2008)

First of all no spanish pilgrims came to the phillipines or the americas theyre (mestizos/mesbas) not europeans. Rumi Maki is the martial art of the incas. Interested? Go to rumimaki.com to read more about it


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## Taker87 (Feb 9, 2008)

First of all Capoeira is angola's martial art and when angolans were brought to brazil they intermarried with the brazilian women teaching their children their martial art. Capoeira in brazil was designed to look like a dance rather than martial art do to the fact that martial arts were outlawed during the spanish/portuguese empire.


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## Taker87 (Feb 9, 2008)

Argentinean martial arts are native to south america but have a european twist to it kind of like the people


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## arnisador (Feb 9, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> There's a south american martial art called "Rumi Maki"



I saw the book at a bookstore recently. I was somewhat skeptical! I assume that, like pankration, it's largely recreated? This book says it means "Stone Hand" and was the "nom de guerre of Teodomiro Gutiérrez".


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## Taker87 (Feb 10, 2008)

Not at all? I could tell because I've studied chinese, japanese, vietnamese, korean, malaysian, thai, plains, hawaiian, persian, indian, angolan, russian, greek martial arts and rumi maki is different from them, the author gives a history about the art itself and even knows the battlefield strategies of the south american warrior. Rumi Maki incorporates striking, grappling, weaponry, medicine used by the south american warrior it's a MMA just like pankration.


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## Taker87 (Feb 10, 2008)

It depends who you learn pankration from. Some "pankration instructors" trained in japanese martial arts like Jui Jitsu and modify it and call it pankration. Jim Arvanitis is a greek american who's goal was to revive the ancient greek combat techniques into a martial art (pankration, panmachia, pankratium, etc.) He was born in greece and studied by looking at ancient vase drawings, statues, etc. depicting techniques of ancient pankration. The actors of the movie "300" trained with some of his fellow instructors to develop the combat training and techniques of the ancient greek warriors. He is considered the father of modern pankration and his form is considered to be the most accurate.


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## Taker87 (Apr 15, 2008)

Capoeiras(kipura) goes back to angola which was brought by angolans who brought their martial influence to brazil. the full bloods the kalapalo have their own martial arts on the show last one standing it shows six foreigners training and competing in kalo palo wrestling. Plus there's Rumi Maki (Stone Hand) which origins go back to Tawantinsuyu. The argentinean martial arts have alot of spanish and italian influences.


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## Taker87 (Apr 15, 2008)

BJJ was brought to Brazil by the Gracie family who trained in Jiu Jitsu in Japan, Capoeira (kipura) was brought over from angola to brazil. The only authentic ones I know are Rumi Maki(Stone Hand) which comes from Tawantinsuyu (Ecuador, Peru, etc.) and Kalo Palo wrestling which comes from the Amazonians


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## Taker87 (Apr 15, 2008)

Does Capoeira(Kipura) cover all ranges of fighting (grappling, groundfighting, weaponry, etc) or is it just a striking art?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> First of all Capoeira is angola's martial art and when angolans were brought to brazil they intermarried with the brazilian women teaching their children their martial art.


 
This is not true.  Capoeira developed in Brazil, but it developed from elements of fighting methods that were brought from Africa and mixed in Brazil, into what we now know of as capoeira.  In addition to the African roots, it is believed that elements of Native Brazilian and White Portuguese methods may have also found their way into the art.  It is difficult to say exactly, as much of its history prior to the early 1900s has been lost.

But capoeira itself, is not indigenous to Africa.  It is not an art that was simply transplanted from Africa to Brazil, fully formed as we have it today.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> Does Capoeira(Kipura) cover all ranges of fighting (grappling, groundfighting, weaponry, etc) or is it just a striking art?


 
It is a method that utilizes mostly striking, sweeping, tripping, and some throwing techniques.  True ground fighting is not part of capoeira, at least in how I would say most schools practice it today.

It is possible that earlier forms of the art, from say, the 1700s and 1800s into the early 1900s may have included these elements, as its need for effective fighting techniques would have been stronger during that time.  Nowadays, while the art can be useful for fighting, I would suggest that most people don't really practice for that.  Under these changing needs, if the art once had ground grappling techniques, they have been minimized or even lost altogether.  The overall approach that the art takes in practice actively excludes actual grappling methods.  This is because in the roda, the goal is to create a flowing physical dialogue that follows the pattern of a combat.  But if the physical dialogue turned into a grappling match, the creative flow of the roda is destroyed.  

However, I have seen capoeira games turn into a wresting match.  This is generally frowned upon, and considered that the participants have fallen out of capoeira and are doing something else.  This sometimes happens when tempers flare and grudges come to the surface in the roda, and someone wants to taste blood.  It can get brutal, and there are definitely capoeiristas who are tough dudes that nobody in their right mind would want to fight.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> BJJ was brought to Brazil by the Gracie family who trained in Jiu Jitsu in Japan


 
This also is not accurate.  

Maeda, who was a top student of Jigoro Kano at the Kodokan, brought a very aggressive version of Judo to Brazil, where he was a successful fighter.  He taught the method to the Gracie family while in Brazil.  The Gracies have taken this art and made it their own.

Brazil actually has a pretty large population of Japanese immigrants.


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

That's true but the gracies were one of the very first to learn the grappling style of the japanese and the art is still pretty much of japanese origin.


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

KIpura originates from angola just like Brazil, angola was under portuguese rule for 300+ years. The kipura of angola and the capoeira of brazil arent too much different the only difference is the capoeira style has more dancing than the kipura style because martial arts were outlawed by the portuguese so they disguised the martial art into a dance form. If you want to see true martial arts of brazilian origin there's this show called called Last Man Standing the very first episode deals with kalapalo wrestling 6 foreigners go to the kalapalo to train and compete in kalapalo wrestling.


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

Kipura(Capoeira) deals with empty hand techniques, weaponcraft, dancing, and healing so its an all around martial art in my book


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## lklawson (Apr 18, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> That's true but the gracies were one of the very first to learn the grappling style of the japanese and the art is still pretty much of japanese origin.


So?  Sure it's only "Western" in-as-much as some may say that it was nominally (re)developed in "The West" (sorta).  However, the fact remains that Count Koma took Judo to Brazil and taught it there, and the Gracies learned from him.

I'll also state that modern BJJ authorities hold that the evolution of BJJ puts it distinctly different from it's Judo origins, far more than even, for instance, Kendo is separated from traditional Kenjutsu Ryu's.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
--
Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism 
http://www.lulu.com/lawson 

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/ 

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise." 
-Chas speaking of rec.martial-arts


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

Modern day brazilians can trace their ancestry not only back to the arawak but also people they intermarried with like the Portuguese and angolans possibly even the inca. But before you make any claims to that you would have to study the arts first such as arawak martial arts, iberian martial arts, and angolan martial arts. I've studied all of them and their doesnt seem to be any resemblance between them.


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

So the point is you cant claim it to be  of brazilian origin if it's roots go back to japan.


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

Rumi Maki is the martial art of the andean people. That's an authentic american martial not some export from another continent


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> So the point is you cant claim it to be of brazilian origin if it's roots go back to japan.


 
I think nobody disputes its roots.


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

Rumi Maki is the martial art of the tawanese people.  I've studied Bod(tibetan), thai, burmese, cambodia, vietnamese, malaysian,korean, japanese, keralan, tamil, persian, arabian, sinai, greek, iberian, russian, british, german, lakotan, incan, arawak, hawaiian, angolan, nuban, senegalese martial arts


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> KIpura originates from angola just like Brazil, angola was under portuguese rule for 300+ years. The kipura of angola and the capoeira of brazil arent too much different the only difference is the capoeira style has more dancing than the kipura style because martial arts were outlawed by the portuguese so they disguised the martial art into a dance form. If you want to see true martial arts of brazilian origin there's this show called called Last Man Standing the very first episode deals with kalapalo wrestling 6 foreigners go to the kalapalo to train and compete in kalapalo wrestling.


 
I don't believe any modern authority on capoeira believes that the art is a simple transplant.  Of course its African roots are recognized.  Various African arts show some similarites.  Nobody disputes that.  But Capoeira developed in Brazil, from these various elements that were brought together there.


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

Others claim it to be of brazilian roots when it in fact is of japanese roots


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

Yeah but Kipura(capoeira's) roots go back to angola not brazil


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> Kipura(Capoeira) deals with empty hand techniques, weaponcraft, dancing, and healing so its an all around martial art in my book


 

It sounds like you are referencing Kipura as a distinct Angolan martial arts.  I don't know anything about that art, but it is not the same as Capoeira.  It may have similarities.  It may share some roots.  But it is not the same art.  Capoeira is not simply transplanted Kipura.


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## Taker87 (Apr 18, 2008)

I've studied the art and even know somebody who practices it. It's roots simply go back to angola, just like karate's roots go back to japan and pankrationK(panmachia's) roots go back to greece


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## lklawson (Apr 18, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> So the point is you cant claim it to be of brazilian origin if it's roots go back to japan.


You are misunderstanding the point being argued (by those arguing for it). 

What they are claiming is that, regardless of BJJ's Japanese "roots" (which *everyone* admits and accepts), the art is now Brazillian due to the fact that it has diverged from its Judo parent so significantly that they've now "made it their own."

This is the position they're arguing from and, to be fair to them, they have historic (semi-mythical at least) precedant.  Is (the various flavors of) "Kung Fu" Chinese are are they actually Indian via Bodi Daharma?  Is Karate an Okinowan art or is it Chinese because it (supposedly) has its roots in Chinese Kung Fu (or is Karate also Indian)?

Is Boxing English, Roman, Greek, or Egyptian (depending on how strong you feel the precedant link is and how far back you want to trace it)?

Is the Khopesh a middle-easter weapon or is it Western (Greek) via Alexander?

This is the point they are arguing from.

Personally, I don't really care who thinks BJJ is either Japanese or Brazillian.  But it's important to understand the arguments being made for each view.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
--
Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism 
http://www.lulu.com/lawson 

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/ 

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise." 
-Chas speaking of rec.martial-arts


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## lklawson (Apr 18, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> Others claim it to be of brazilian roots when it in fact is of japanese roots


BJJ?

I've not seen anybody with any credibility in the BJJ comunity claim that BJJ's roots are Brazillian and not Japanese.  Heck, even the official BJJ web site & FAQ recognizes the Judo origin.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
--
Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism 
http://www.lulu.com/lawson 

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/ 

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise." 
-Chas speaking of rec.martial-arts


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## lklawson (Apr 18, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> and pankrationK(panmachia's) roots go back to greece


 
That depends on who you ask and your definition.  

From my best research, modern Pankration is a modern *reconstruction* of what is believed to be classic Pankration.  (re)Invented in the '70s, ims.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
--
Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism 
http://www.lulu.com/lawson 

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/ 

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise." 
-Chas speaking of rec.martial-arts


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> I've studied the art and even know somebody who practices it. It's roots simply go back to angola, just like karate's roots go back to japan and pankrationK(panmachia's) roots go back to greece


 

You've studied what, capoeira or kipura?

As I've stated, capoeira's roots in Africa are not disputed.


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## Taker87 (May 21, 2008)

They go back to angola not brazil, Have you seen original brazilian martial arts? It's completely differently, Therefore kipura(capoeira's roots) go back to angola rather than brazil


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## Taker87 (May 21, 2008)

Wushu was around long before bodhi dharma went to china and established the shaolin buddhist temple. Karate was developed in okinawa by okinawans not the chinese or japanese.


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## Taker87 (May 21, 2008)

Tell me what culture doesnt have boxing incorporated into their system? Kipura was brought over by angolans brought to brazil who intermarried with brazilians calling it capoeira it was used by angolans to resist against portuguese conquistadores


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## Taker87 (May 21, 2008)

Go to www.xilam.org or go to youtube.com, type in xilam and search for it. That's mexico's "original" martial art


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## DFoat (Nov 17, 2008)

Does anyone know of any practitioners of Xilam, or any other pre-Hispanic martial arts.


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## Taker87 (Dec 2, 2008)

Yeah but Jiu Jitsu is Japan's martial art not brazil's. There are even 700 styles of known classical Jiu Jitsu which is Japan's "original" martial art. The Gracies went to Japan to learn Jiu Jitsu, then came back to Brazil, modified it into "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu".


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## Taker87 (Dec 2, 2008)

Alex Bushman is one of the masters of the martial art Rumi Maki which is the martial art of Kichwa nation (Peru). It is claimed that even the mighty incas used trained in this martial art.


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## Taker87 (Dec 2, 2008)

Modern Pankration is based off techniques depicted on ancient vases, statues, etc., however Jim Arvanitis trained in Judo, Boxing, Greco Roman Wrestling, before he did research to recreate pankration.


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## Taker87 (Dec 2, 2008)

Rumi Maki (Kichwa) martial art peru.


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## Taker87 (Dec 2, 2008)

So it's like American style karate as opposed to Okinawan Karate the point is the art sprung from Okinawa with the okinawan martial arts ti and tegumi, which the chinese brought martial influence and modified it into Kode ti, and the japanese brought influence  creating Karate and american soldiers in WW2 stationed on okinawa learned karate bringing it back to america and modifying it creating "american Karate". The point is you have to look back to the roots of martial art and see where it originally sprung from.


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## Taker87 (Dec 2, 2008)

Well you misunderstood when I said the arts have roots on them and evolve over time.


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## arnisador (Dec 2, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> The Gracies went to Japan to learn Jiu Jitsu, then came back to Brazil, modified it into "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu".



Eh, that's not quite how it happened.


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## Taker87 (Dec 29, 2008)

There's a martial art Rumi Maki which is the martial art of Kichwa nation (Peru). It is claimed that incas used trained in this martial


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## Taker87 (Dec 29, 2008)

Ah yeah it is quite how it happened.


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## Taker87 (Dec 29, 2008)

My mistake alex Bushman is not a master of rumi maki.


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## arnisador (Dec 29, 2008)

There's a Rumi Maki book out now--I've seen it at Borders.


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