# the first couple videos from my test



## Twin Fist (Mar 26, 2009)

this part is my students demonstrating self defense, as part of my belt test. 






this me doing Sae Jong. I have a slight balance loss before the one footed 180 degree turn. Of course, I didnt know that turn was in the form untill the night before, more when I get them posted.


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## terryl965 (Mar 26, 2009)

Looked real good Twin Fist Thanks for sharring.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 26, 2009)

Nice to see you in action, John :tup:. 

You know, I never pictured you with a beard .  

Also, not normally the thing one man says to another but good voice tone too - I bet that cuts across the dojo noise just fine without sounding like you're shouting.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 26, 2009)

alot of years as a DJ....


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 26, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Also, not normally the thing one man says to another but good voice tone too - I bet that cuts across the dojo noise just fine without sounding like you're shouting.



It's ok if you don't make eye contact, Suke. I noticed the same thing -- a strong, well-spoken presence.



			
				Twin Fist said:
			
		

> Of course, I didnt know that turn was in the form untill the night before...



Jeeze. No pressure, eh? What would a dan promotion be without a little last minute stress? I think the important thing is always to trudge on, which you did.

Congrats.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 26, 2009)

the book just had you stepping out, not turning out.....

made the night before the test a lot more interesting....


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 26, 2009)

Great job, John.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 26, 2009)

one steps


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## arnisador (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks for sharing!


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2009)

Ooo to have all those people watching and be videoed! You're a braver man than I Gunga Din!!

Well done! 
Nice to put a face to the name lol!


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> this part is my students demonstrating self defense, as part of my belt test.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Looks like you have strong chung Do Kwan or some other Kwan roots. Must be why the rising outer forearm block comes from underneath and the twin outer forearm block travels on an angle (It was that way in 1972, but not since 1980) . 

what book are you following? If you followed it correctly it is a different standard than what the pattern creator intended. See;
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/se-jong/2108869356


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks for sharing those. Nice job! :asian:


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## miguksaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Looked nice.  I like your one steps.  I think the only criticism I would have is that the dojang has the American flag hung the wrong way.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> Looks like you have strong chung Do Kwan or some other Kwan roots. Must be why the rising outer forearm block comes from underneath and the twin outer forearm block travels on an angle (It was that way in 1972, but not since 1980) .
> 
> what book are you following? If you followed it correctly it is a different standard than what the pattern creator intended. See;
> http://video.aol.com/video-detail/se-jong/2108869356




we use the Hee Il Cho books as a bible for forms. Our system is essentially exactly as Jhoon Rheee taught it in 1959, we have just added some things to it

that said, sine wave? eeeeeeww


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Sine wave aside, the turns as you performed them do not conform with the way the pattern is designed.  He Il Cho would explain the Chung Do kwan methodology vis a vis rising outer forearm block and Twin outer forearm block. (Except if you do it that way the Block application is compromised. Other applications make more sense for that type of motion.)

Two questions:

Why pick He Il Cho's book? Does your group only use 20 of the 24 patterns? 

Your profile says you are a fourth Dan. Is this correct? Dose your org. Use Se Jong as a requirement for 5th?


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## clfsean (Mar 27, 2009)

Curious... why are your student's demoing things?


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Here's another one . No sine wave OK. From an ITF standpoint it is not technicaly correct but at least all the moves are performed while going to the correct direction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85RY1L1aWsw&feature=related


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Another Vid. Technical issues aside, all the steps and turns going the correct direction - Following the pattern diagram http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIQEh-QUOj0&NR=1


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

Earl,
here are the form requirements:

Orange-Chun Gi
Purple- Tan Gun
Blue- To San
Green- Won Hyo
4th Brown- Yul Kuk
3rd Brown- Gun Guen
2nd Brown- Toi Gae
1st Brown- Hwa Rang

Black-Chung Mu and a Bo form
1st Dan- Chul Gi, Bassai, Tae Bek, Koryo, Bo Form 2
2nd Dan-Gae Bek, Kwang Gae, create a bo form
3rd Dan- Po En, Sae Jong, create a weapon kata, demonstrate kata Bunkai
4th Dan- Sam Il, Chong Jang
5th Dan- Ul Ji, Ko Dang
6th Dan- Choi Yung, Tong Il 		

it is an odd mix, and no, it does not conform to ITF standards.

Before you ask, I was testing for 3rd Dan, and was promoted to 4th Dan, something my instructor has never done before. Dont say it, I know, I am not comfortable with the idea either, but I am not gonna tell my instructor "no, you are wrong, i only want 3rd Dan"  i did insist that I would learn the two forms for 4th dan and perform them for her in short order.

The turns are performed as they are taught in the book by Hee Il Cho. Those books were published in the early 80's, if people are not performing it that way now, maybe THEY are the ones doing it wrong.....

Either way, thats the way my instructor wants it, so thats the way i learned it.

clfsean,
Part of my test was a "specialty" demonstration. For my 2nd test, my specialty was Kenpo self Defense. For this test, since I am a school owner, my specialty these days is teaching, and there is no better way to judge a teacher than by looking at his students


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## elder999 (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Part of my test was a "specialty" demonstration. For my 2nd test, my specialty was Kenpo self Defense. For this test, since I am a school owner, *my specialty these days is teaching, and there is no better way to judge a teacher than by looking at his students*


 
Well said.


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## clfsean (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> clfsean,
> Part of my test was a "specialty" demonstration. For my 2nd test, my specialty was Kenpo self Defense. For this test, since I am a school owner, my specialty these days is teaching, and there is no better way to judge a teacher than by looking at his students



Ok cool... not busting balls, just getting my head around things is all, but if you tested for & received TKD rank (congrats BTW), why Kenpo (so not-TKD) for the self defense?  Why not TKD for the self defense?


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

two reasons for Kenpo self defense on my 2nd Dan test
1- I had already done a bull in the ring self defense vs 4 attackers doing random attacks, unrehearsed

2- the whole point of the specialty is that it is something BEYOND what we are taught in class. Underbelts dont have that requirement, but BB's do, because my teacher wants us to go past what she teaches us.

I did Kenpo self defense because A) it wasnt TKD and B)as a Kenpo BB, i already knew it, and it really impresses the TKD people when you show them how different Kenpo is from TKD.

it makes sense when you think about it.


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## clfsean (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> two reasons for Kenpo self defense on my 2nd Dan test
> 1- I had already done a bull in the ring self defense vs 4 attackers doing random attacks, unrehearsed



Cool... 



Twin Fist said:


> 2- the whole point of the specialty is that it is something BEYOND what we are taught in class. Underbelts dont have that requirement, but BB's do, because my teacher wants us to go past what she teaches us.



So you're expected at BB to go outside the school? Cool... 



Twin Fist said:


> I did Kenpo self defense because A) it wasnt TKD and B)as a Kenpo BB, i already knew it, and it really impresses the TKD people when you show them how different Kenpo is from TKD.



Well, you definately gave them that. Kenpo != TKD ... 



Twin Fist said:


> it makes sense when you think about it.



Eh not so much to me, but I've never claimed to be the smart bulb in the bunch either. 

But, none the less, good on you for passing & moving forward!


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

well, different people do different things for thier specialties. This last weekend, one guy did breaking, one guy did musical kata. On my 2nd dan test, one of the testers had been studying judo, and demonstrated that.

Like I said, the whole idea is to show that you have grown beyond what you were taught.

it works.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

>>>The turns are performed as they are taught in the book by Hee Il Cho. Those books were published in the early 80's, if people are not performing it that way now, maybe THEY are the ones doing it wrong.....<<<


The vids I showed were from 3 totaly unrelated groups. Many more out there.  None perform the pattern as you did . Further, as you performed it you do not follow the patttern diagram. That leaves 4 possibilities. 
1. Typo in He Il Cho's book
2. The book is not clear which led to your misinterpretation. 
3. He Il Cho has it wrong. 
4. Everyone except He Il Cho is wrong. 

In any event I will check the 1965 Book and 1972 book to see if there is an easy way to see why their is a misinterpretation.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Please list how moves 7&8, and 21&22 are described in He Il Cho's book. That is where things differ in your performance.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

i was confused by this as well. I even created a thread on the topic of sae jong, and the fact that the book that has always been right didnt match the way every single video i had seen....

look for the thread titled "friggin sae jong"

All I know is, thats the way GM William Shelton, 8th Dan wanted it. Thats good enough for me, as we are not WTF, ITF, or any other *TF.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

from the complete tae kwon do hyung, by Hee Il Cho, vol 2, pg  195

Sae Jong, move 8. Rotate 180 degrees clockwise


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

next video, this one of my students again. They are doing a set that I created to teach the first two kicks in the system, the front kick and the back kick. I created this set to teach not just the kicks, but BALANCE. Thats why the set is performed with the feet together.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i was confused by this as well. I even created a thread on the topic of sae jong, and the fact that the book that has always been right didnt match the way every single video i had seen....
> 
> look for the thread titled "friggin sae jong"
> 
> All I know is, thats the way GM William Shelton, 8th Dan wanted it. Thats good enough for me, as we are not WTF, ITF, or any other *TF.


 
Well, Gneral Choi's books had and have errors so it is certainly possible He Il Cho's book does as well. For some errors there wer technical correction bulletins issued . For others he simply pointed them out when asked at courses. Maybe someone should contact He Il Cho


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> from the complete tae kwon do hyung, by Hee Il Cho, vol 2, pg 195
> 
> Sae Jong, move 8. Rotate 180 degrees clockwise


 

Does the "Complete" book still list only 20 of the 24 patterns? Not exactly confidence inspiring if it does.


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## elder999 (Mar 27, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> . Maybe someone should contact He Il Cho


 
Maybe someone should _let it go._  :lfao:


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i was confused by this as well. I even created a thread on the topic of sae jong, and the fact that the book that has always been right didnt match the way every single video i had seen....
> 
> look for the thread titled "friggin sae jong"
> 
> All I know is, thats the way GM William Shelton, 8th Dan wanted it. Thats good enough for me, as we are not WTF, ITF, or any other *TF.


 

GM William Shelton Student of GM Larry Wheeler who got his BB in 1971 from the Allen Steen Chung Do Kwan system definitley explains the rising outer forearm block chambering underneath and the angle motion of the twin outer forearm block.  Does not explain the unique rendition of Se Jong. 

If I were you I would respectfully ask for more research from the technical directors.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

i'll be sure and do that


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> GM William Shelton Student of GM Larry Wheeler who got his BB in 1971 from the Allen Steen Chung Do Kwan system definitley explains the rising outer forearm block chambering underneath and the angle motion of the twin outer forearm block. Does not explain the unique rendition of Se Jong.
> 
> If I were you I would respectfully ask for more research from the technical directors.


 
If I were you I'd respectfully refrain from posting anymore on this thread but then I happen to not to have the gene that means I have to demean others efforts...in this case, very good efforts. As for only 20 (shock, horror), well pal, quality over quantity everytime. 

Does a block work? yes? then it's a damn fine block. :ultracool


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

Bull in the ring self defense.


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## Tames D (Mar 27, 2009)

TF, When will you know the results of your EARL test?


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

I know I am gonna regret this, but whats an EARL test?


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> If I were you I'd respectfully refrain from posting anymore on this thread but then I happen to not to have the gene that means I have to demean others efforts...in this case, very good efforts. As for only 20 (shock, horror), well pal, quality over quantity everytime.
> 
> Does a block work? yes? then it's a damn fine block. :ultracool


 
A couple of points.  #1. Twin fist had a thread with regard to his frustration about the pattern. It is now clear why he was so frustrated.  He followed what all good students should follow, the stipulated parameters.  If there is an error in the parmaeter, do you think it improper to find out?   (It does not demean his efforts, it does question the standard he was following). #2.  Would you consider it an authoritative text about the complete book of the alphabet, all 22 letters?  #3. wuld you rather find out you were making an error, even if based on faulty information or would you prefer to commit the error forever and teach it to your students. 

I for one think it imortant, for teachers, particularly to be clear in what they are doing. If I make a mistake, as a student, it results in one individual making a mistake. If I make a mistake as an instructor, it can be compounded multiple times. 

I have asked General Choi about what I was percieved to be an error in his book, and he was glad to have it brought to his attention. Others did the same.  I am glad when my students ask me about what they percieve to be errors. Sometimes it is merely a miscommunication and sometimes Iscrew up. 

In this case the pattern has a diagram. 3 Horizontal lines bisected by a vertical line. The moves should follow the pattern diagram lines (more or less) in the verson reportedly contained in He Il Cho's book, the entire top line is missing. 

I have tried to find AIMAA pattern video or text on line and was not successful.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Bull in the ring self defense.




Love it. I do the defense from the rear bear hug virtually the same way. These are your students attacking you? They look like they know what their doing -- strong committed attacks, ready to take the lumps.

Thanks for sharing!


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## seasoned (Mar 27, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> I for one think it imortant, for teachers, particularly to be clear in what they are doing. If I make a mistake, as a student, it results in one individual making a mistake. If I make a mistake as an instructor, it can be compounded multiple times.


Bottom line is TF already took his test, and this forum is not the place to retest, non should it be. If you have some problem with something, that is what PM is all about. That way it is between you and him, and not the whole site. You are overly stressing a point, and in turn talking to yourself.


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## seasoned (Mar 27, 2009)

Nice job Twin Fist, keep up the good work. :asian:


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 27, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have asked General Choi about what I was percieved to be an error in his book, and he was glad to have it brought to his attention. Others did the same. I am glad when my students ask me about what they percieve to be errors. Sometimes it is merely a miscommunication and sometimes Iscrew up.



Respectfully, TF isn't your student.


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## Tames D (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I know I am gonna regret this, but whats an EARL test?


 
Sorry, I thought it was obvious. 

And, I thought your students looked very good. Obviously a good reflection on you.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

come on, dont leave me hanging.....tell me


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## Carol (Mar 27, 2009)

Looking really good....hottie.


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## crushing (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Bull in the ring self defense.



I like the more dynamic SD tests like that.  Well done on your testing!


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## terryl965 (Mar 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> come on, dont leave me hanging.....tell me


 

TF very nice job, I can see almost som of the same techniques that we do. As far as the Earl test it was in reference to Earl Wiess retesting your test.


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## exile (Mar 27, 2009)

Beautiful job, TF. Clean as a whistle... sharp and crisp.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

thanks people, i have a total of 8 videos up, please check them all out.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2009)

i get it now. man, i am slow today



QUI-GON said:


> TF, When will you know the results of your EARL test?


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## bluekey88 (Mar 28, 2009)

Excellent test sir!   Really looked good.  You should be proud. 

Peace,
Erik


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> A couple of points. #1. Twin fist had a thread with regard to his frustration about the pattern. It is now clear why he was so frustrated. He followed what all good students should follow, the stipulated parameters. If there is an error in the parmaeter, do you think it improper to find out? (It does not demean his efforts, it does question the standard he was following). #2. Would you consider it an authoritative text about the complete book of the alphabet, all 22 letters? #3. wuld you rather find out you were making an error, even if based on faulty information or would you prefer to commit the error forever and teach it to your students.
> 
> I for one think it imortant, for teachers, particularly to be clear in what they are doing. If I make a mistake, as a student, it results in one individual making a mistake. If I make a mistake as an instructor, it can be compounded multiple times.
> 
> ...


 
 But can you fight?


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## seasoned (Mar 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> But can you fight?


Ouch!!!


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## karatemom (Mar 28, 2009)

:bangahead:


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## searcher (Mar 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Bull in the ring self defense.


 

I am loving the level of contact TF.    So often I see a lesser level of contact and I am glad to see you have maintained good contact when training SD.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> But can you fight?


 
Well, there have been battles won and battles lost.  So, it might depend on whom you ask. However, I expect that even the victors respect a worthy opponent. 

I can only wonder what the heck does the question have to do with the issues at hand?


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> If I were you I'd respectfully refrain from posting anymore on this thread but then I happen to not to have the gene that means I have to demean others efforts...in this case, very good efforts. As for only 20 (shock, horror), well pal, quality over quantity everytime.
> 
> Does a block work? yes? then it's a damn fine block. :ultracool


 
I note by your profile you are not a Taekwon-Do person. If you were and were familiar with the works by the creator of the Chang Hun patterns of which Se Jong is one(which is not to say he didn't have input from other noteables) as compared to the works by others containing the same material, their is no comparison between the quality of the original a sn subsequent editions vis a vis detail and explanation and the work done by others such as Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho. 

Note, this is not to demean other tremendous accomplishents and contributions by Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho. However, having authoritative and definitive works on these patterns is not one of them.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 28, 2009)

I believe that first you might have to have an English slant on humourous holding up of 'mirrors' to a speaker to make a point but what was being referenced was an overly officious emphasis on detail.  

What might be termed 'nitpicking' or 'hair-splitting' if I was ever to speak so rudely to someone who was not a friend.

It was not in and of itself a serious question about whether 'you can fight' but rather a tangential allusion to where the focus should practically lie.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Earl,
> 
> 
> The turns are performed as they are taught in the book by Hee Il Cho. Those books were published in the early 80's, if people are not performing it that way now, maybe THEY are the ones doing it wrong.....
> ...


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## Twin Fist (Mar 28, 2009)

No, I am not going to either. Several reasons.

1-katas get changed all the time

2- i dont sweat the small stuff

3- no way no how am I gonna tell Mr Shelton, who is very possibly the best kata man i have met in 25 years in the arts that his preference is wrong.....

4-lets just say that Choi wanted it the way you claim, ok, fine. Choi also came up with the stupidest thing in the history of TKD-sine wave- his judgement is therefore suspect.

5-i just dont care if anyone OTHER than my linaeage thinks I am doing it right. 

sorry if this seems rude, but, well, down in texas we have been doing TKD longer than the rest of the country, and we do it our own way and really? we dont care what anyone outside the family thinks


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> I note by your profile you are not a Taekwon-Do person. If you were and were familiar with the works by the creator of the Chang Hun patterns of which Se Jong is one(which is not to say he didn't have input from other noteables) as compared to the works by others containing the same material, their is no comparison between the quality of the original a sn subsequent editions vis a vis detail and explanation and the work done by others such as Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho.
> 
> Note, this is not to demean other tremendous accomplishents and contributions by Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho. However, having authoritative and definitive works on these patterns is not one of them.


 
Aha, my dear sir and there you would be wrong, I actually have a yellow belt in TKD.
I am familiar with all manner of men but pompous ones have never been my favourite.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 28, 2009)

and yet you love me

it's a mystery for the ages


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2009)

TF, you and I were made for each other.....:jediduel:


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> No, I am not going to either. Several reasons.
> 
> 1-katas get changed all the time
> 
> ...


 
1. This one has been unchanged since 1965. Perhaps longer. 

2.  You are certainly free to make a judgement call that turning the wrong way and going in the wrong direction, not following the pattern diagram is small stuff. 

3.  I was not asking you to second gues anyone. In some schools / orgs it is permitted to ask questions (sometimes in private) in a respectful way. Even the best instructors make mistakes. I have even heard gneral Choi say in response to a question "What Book say?" and he wrote it. He said "Even book better than General Choi" acknowledging that the shortest pencil is better than the longest memory.  Apparently your group believes the instructor is infallable. You have the right to hold such beliefs.  It explains perpetuation of errors. 

4. You have a right to your opinion. However, it would be intersting to see if anything on your resume other than what is posted on your resume lends any weight to your opinion from an experiential and educational standpoint. Further, since you learn so many of Gneral Choi's patterns and apparently subscribe to his tenets and other material being critical of General Choi  is being critical of yourself as well as your instructors, and your instructors instructors who use the same material. 

5. This point is abundantly clear. The difference is that others care what the rest of the world thinks. We might even make some effort to see if constructive criticism is well founded. I apologize for thinking that you fell into this other group.  You are also very privileged to have so many people on this forum come to your defense.


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> 1. This one has been unchanged since 1965. Perhaps longer.
> 
> 2. You are certainly free to make a judgement call that turning the wrong way and going in the wrong direction, not following the pattern diagram is small stuff.
> 
> ...


 

Oh dear, is that the royal 'we'?

TF's martial arts work. Does he need to slavishly follow your general's words to be able to defend and fight? Are we not living in the free world?
As for defending him, you have no idea how odd it is for me to be defending him lol! However, he and I however politically poles apart are brother and sister under the skin when it comes to martial arts.
Your 'constructive' criticism has come over as far from that but sounds more like a disciple who is following his messiah and is upset because we don't see your messiah as ours. We march to the beat of a different drum.
Who's right and who's wrong? Well the proof is in the pudding, TF can defend himself and fight, does it then matter which way he turns in a pattern?
You don't like it? Live with it.


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## elder999 (Mar 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> lets just say that Choi wanted it the way you claim, ok, fine.Choi also came up with the stupidest thing in *the history of TKD*-sine wave- his judgement* is* therefore *suspect.*


 
Not to mention.....




Twin Fist said:


> 4-lets just say that Choi wanted it the way you claim, ok, fine. *Choi* also came up with the stupidest thing in the history of TKD-sine wave- his judgement* is* therefore *suspect.*


 
:lol:


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## Twin Fist (Mar 29, 2009)

Earl,
you are clearly very well educated on the history of TKD. Thats very cool.


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## artFling (Mar 29, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Looking really good....hottie.




Carol,  Now you've gone too far.  Have your nurses slow your drip way down.  And I can't be putting up with TF's big head over being called a....; I can't even repeat it.  (See, I have to deal with him in the flesh several times a week).  Just cut the drip off altogether; you can't be in that much pain.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 29, 2009)

you know art, sooner or later you are gonna have to spar again........


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## terryl965 (Mar 29, 2009)

Earl I have a couple of question for you......


1st thing why is it so important for you to be right with variation of poomsae's? Even the General said let all interpitation be that of the person performing... I have seen variation of almost every poomsae ever done and I do not pass judgement but I ask why this way instead of this and then see if it has any merit.

2nd thing as far as knowing the history of TKD do you include the Okunawa roots that was before the TKD era?

Last thing I have been doing TKD forever and have never seen one individual be on a journey like yours against TF, is this personal? do you know him? What type of TKD do you do the original ITF or a branch off? What kwan linage are you from?

You see so far I am not inpress with what you have said about this and for one starting to believe it is just some jelousy you have and need to find a way to be better than TF. I take poomsae apart and look for other ways to see hidden application. You say the General is always right so this means you have personally trained with him and if so you know how sometimes certain techs changed over the years, not saying anything bad just saying what is the truth. I do almost all of the poomsae's that have been introduce in the circle of TKD both ITF and the WTF and as well as the ATA's so what I saw was a man with great conviction going before a panel and doing the best possible job he could and that is what TKD is about not stopping or quitting but rallying to be the best at that moment. I hope you can see past your little window and see the big picture withen TKD.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 29, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Earl I have a couple of question for you......
> 
> 
> 1st thing why is it so important for you to be right with variation of poomsae's? Even the General said let all interpitation be that of the person performing... I have seen variation of almost every poomsae ever done and I do not pass judgement but I ask why this way instead of this and then see if it has any merit.
> ...


 
1. I have no issue with people who knowingly perform a variation or interpretation on anything. It is those who mistakenly believe they are properly performing according to the intended structure that should be aware of their error lest they compound or perpetuate the error.  It would be like someone thinking theyy are accurately perofrming a song when they are not. Unlike someone knowing the accurate performance and deciding  to make a variation. I have been with stiudents who are ITF off shoots and sometimes they know it is a variation. Other times they are  cueless. Can you rpovide a reference as to where I might find the statement you reference from Gneral Choi. 

2. My point has nothing to do with TF asan individual . He follows the wishes of his seniors and instructors. This is proper. There is a question as whetehr the seniors made a knowing departure from the original. 

3. General Choi was not infallable and I question why he chose to do some things a certain way. Reasoneable people can have a difference of opinion . That is fine. In fact there are errors in his books, which he acknowledged and issued technical corrections for in some instances. However, the directions and turns for this pattern have not been corrected or changed. So, if you claim to perform it and follow the pattern diagram, and do something else, there is an issue. 

4. My lineage is thru an Cha Kyo, so originaly there was a stong Chung Do Kwan component. My Instructor left GM Han in 1972 or so aand from then we went thru the ITF. My frst instructor course with gneral Choi was in 1990. It was there i could see how many things were not clearly conveyed from person to person otr thru the books over time. I had also learned patterns from books and it was not an ideal situation. 

I also explore alternate patter pplications. My favorite works are Bubiushi, works by Rick Clark, Stuart Anslow, Vince Morris and George Dilman along those lines. 

4. The Okinawan roots of TKD thru the Shorin and Shaolin systems are set out in General Choi's books. Of course you also have those who feel Shorin was the Okinawan derivation of Shaolin. 

Perhaps I have the big picture, perhaps not. Over 35 years in TKD in 4 countries besides the USA and with over 3 dozen different TKD instructors at seminars and camps gives some insight. Then there are the various Ju Jitsu and Hapkido Instructors whose classes i have taken and the pot Purri of other stuff such as Joe Lewis and Bill wallace, Dillman, Oyata, Vince Morris, Peyton Quinns RMCAT, PPCT classes .  You can Google my name for my website and excerpts of my resume.


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## terryl965 (Mar 29, 2009)

I myself know alot of the same people and have trained in several different countries as well, it just seemed like you was on a personal driven conclusion against TF. If it is not attended that way then I was mis spoken and humblely :asian:. My reference  was from a seminar in the late 1980's and it was not an exact qoute but something of that sort. So in all fairness since you explore different approaches to the actual poomsae's why does his turnigthe opposit direction seem to brother you as much and I am glad it is nothing personal about TF.


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## exile (Mar 29, 2009)

Ummm... I'd like to suggest to those who insist on talking about themselves and their experiences and knowledge and contact with impressive names in the history of TKD that this thread isn't about you. It's about looking at some vids of Twin Fist's excellent performance, under fairly challenging real-world conditions, of a basically novel hyung, and about his students' display of the skills they acquired under his guidance, and making observations about what he did, as vs. what he maybe would have done if he'd consulted with his own 8th dan instructor beforehand on why it's not exactly the same as the General said it should be. So with that in mind, maybe we could _return to topic?_ Hmmm?


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 29, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> I myself know alot of the same people and have trained in several different countries as well, it just seemed like you was on a personal driven conclusion against TF. If it is not attended that way then I was mis spoken and humblely :asian:. My reference was from a seminar in the late 1980's and it was not an exact qoute but something of that sort. So in all fairness since you explore different approaches to the actual poomsae's why does his turnigthe opposit direction seem to brother you as much and I am glad it is nothing personal about TF.


 
To re focus. Twin Fist had a thread "Friigin Sae Jong" or something to that effect expressing his frustration as to how it was laid out.  Frankly I found it hard to follow his thoughts from the posted narrative which was (reportedly)  from He Il Cho's book.  After seeing the performance the source of his frustration, ...very strange turns which are not as the pattern creator intended became clear.  The issue then became whether their was an error in the text he was following or an intentional change. 

 A question that remains unanswered and apparently of no importance to TF which is his privilege. 

However, I percieved, apparently wrongly so, that if in fact it were an error in that text that there would be a desire not to perpetuate it. 

It bothers me a great deal to see an error perpetuated. (Sorry Exile if it is about me) I feel strongly as an instructor that  students should be able to go anywhere in the world and not have people view their performance and wonder "What the Heck are they doing?" To that end, if there is something in an accepted standard that I disagree with I teach the standard,  so they know what is expected of them. I also provide my opinion on that standard noting that it is my opinion ad people are free to agree or disagree. 

So, again, to refocus. Knowingly exploring alternate approaches is  far different than doing something altogether different and not knowing that you are doing something different, not knowing that it deviates markedly from the most widely accepted standard, and perpetuating it as something other than a variation.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 29, 2009)

yes, lets get back to how awesome I am....


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## seasoned (Mar 30, 2009)

What he said.


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## terryl965 (Mar 30, 2009)

OK TF here is a question are the one steps pre-arranged or is it something each student must come up with prior to testing?


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## Twin Fist (Mar 30, 2009)

Terry,
good question.

For BB, you need 20 One Steps.The first 8 are set, designed by the instructor. 9-20 have to be self created. All Onesteps and three steps after BB are self created.


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## dnovice (Mar 30, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> this part is my students demonstrating self defense, as part of my belt test.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Haven't seen too many Kata's but I definitely liked this one. Thanks for sharing.


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## CDKJudoka (Mar 30, 2009)

Great job and congrats on your test TF.


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## artFling (Mar 30, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you know art, sooner or later you are gonna have to spar again........



What?  What'd I say?


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## artFling (Mar 30, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yes, lets get back to how awesome I am....



Carol,  I blame this on you.


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## miguksaram (Mar 31, 2009)

Ok...I have to join in on this because, well I have been rewriting competition rules, getting things together for 2 national tournaments and creating bylaws, so I am extrememly bored. 



Earl Weiss said:


> 1. This one has been unchanged since 1965. Perhaps longer.


 
Which is great. If you want to practice very traditional forms that's awesome.  Now who is to say that book is right?  It may have been right at the time of the author putting it out, but things change perspective changes, etc.



> 2. You are certainly free to make a judgement call that turning the wrong way and going in the wrong direction, not following the pattern diagram is small stuff.


 
If they can justify the turing of a different direction other than what is written in a book then why is it wrong?



> 3. I was not asking you to second gues anyone. In some schools / orgs it is permitted to ask questions (sometimes in private) in a respectful way. Even the best instructors make mistakes. I have even heard gneral Choi say in response to a question "What Book say?" and he wrote it. He said "Even book better than General Choi" acknowledging that the shortest pencil is better than the longest memory. Apparently your group believes the instructor is infallable. You have the right to hold such beliefs. It explains perpetuation of errors.


 
Just as Choi's group doesn't want to look deeper into his questionable background in martial arts.



> 4. You have a right to your opinion. However, it would be intersting to see if anything on your resume other than what is posted on your resume lends any weight to your opinion from an experiential and educational standpoint. Further, since you learn so many of Gneral Choi's patterns and apparently subscribe to his tenets and other material being critical of General Choi is being critical of yourself as well as your instructors, and your instructors instructors who use the same material.
> 
> 5. This point is abundantly clear. The difference is that others care what the rest of the world thinks. We might even make some effort to see if constructive criticism is well founded. I apologize for thinking that you fell into this other group. You are also very privileged to have so many people on this forum come to your defense.


 
The reason I am joining in this, is because our school will sometimes be told by others that we are performing a kata wrong.  They tell me they learned it exactly how the founder taught it and that is the correct way.  Cool.  Guess what, I don't care.  The way that we are being taught is working out fine.  We do the forms and even justify our movements with bunkai.  My point is that instead of coming on here telling him he is wrong because the book says its wrong, why not just find out more about why they do it that way and leave it at that, or dig deeper and contact GM Cho and ask him personally why he does the pattern wrong.  After all TF is just doing what he was taught.  The source of his information is still alive.  Go to the source.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 1, 2009)

it's like the transistion from the one legged stance to the back stance with the double elbow to the rear.

the book, and every video just has you stepping out.

MR Shelton changed it to a 180 degree turn counter clockwise.

to make it HARDER to do.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 1, 2009)

When discussions take the turn towards disagreements on detail, it is important to take a step back and remember what kata in a given martial art are for.

In koryu arts such as MJER, each movement is an integral part of a technique that makes up part of the art.  They are the method by which the swordsman learns that which he or she needs to react to a given circumstance.  For such arts, the transmission of the technique is supposedly assured by the very nature of how koryu styles structure themselves and changing, inventing or otherwise altering the techniques is sternly restricted.  That does not mean it does not happen, however.  The trick is to make sure that the changes that creep in, as technique passes from sensei to sensei, do not undermine the fundamental practicality of the style, nor render it unrecognisable as that style.

TKD does not operate under such a milieu; as far as I have been able to ascertain, those very things that my art would frown upon and prevent are actively encouraged.  I might be wrong on this and mean no insult to TKD but surely an art where reasonably high-ranking students are encouraged to invent forms of their own should be one in which disagreements over the minutiae of provenance have no place?

If that is so, then picking over one such students efforts, performed in accordance with his schools current thinking, is somewhat rude?

*Miguk* said it well in closing above, I just wanted to add my amplification to his words.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 2, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> .
> 
> Which is great. If you want to practice very traditional forms that's awesome. Now who is to say that book is right? It may have been right at the time of the author putting it out, but things change perspective changes, etc.
> 
> ...


 

The form was created by Gneral Choi during  perhaps with the assistance of several accomplished martial artists at the time.  Since it was his creation or done under his authority he has the right to stipulate how the pattern was performed. From the 1965 publication thru the time of his death it did not change. So, if you do not follow the stipulated parameters, it is wrong.  It has not changed. 

If you knowingly make a change, that is fine. If you unknowingly perpetuate an error, that is not a good idea. If you knowingly make a change to something and continue to represent itt as the original that is fraud. This is one reasoon many Ryus were formed, becuse, successors did not want to represent what they were doing as something else. 

You can justify turning hoever  you want. You are then doing something than the original. 

I have sent 2 e-mails to AIMAA . He Il Cho's group. I asked if it were an error or intentional change.  So far no response.


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## elder999 (Apr 2, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have sent 2 e-mails to AIMAA . He Il Cho's group. I asked if it were an error or intentional change. So far no response.


 
They're probably _ignoring you._


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## Twin Fist (Apr 2, 2009)

experiment time.

i will try to find the number to the main school for Cho's group, i know it is in LA. And I will call and ask.


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## terryl965 (Apr 2, 2009)

It was a mistake in interpitation and that was told to me years ago. But looking forward to some input from the group.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 3, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> experiment time.
> 
> i will try to find the number to the main school for Cho's group, i know it is in LA. And I will call and ask.


 
Kudos to you for taking the initiative. I believe GM Cho himslef moved to Hawaii a couple of years ago.


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