# Train TMA but fight like kickboxer



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 29, 2022)

In another thread, people mentioned that one may train TMA but fight like kickboxer. If the TMA founder had fighting experience, should the style that he created be more like kickboxing?

For example, if an ancient TMA master fought all his life, in one of his fights, he found out that the roundhouse kick and hook punch worked very well. When he created his TMA system, should he include the roundhouse kick and hook punch into his training?

My logic is the following:

If you fight enough -> you will fight like kickboxer -> the TMA style you create will be like kickboxing.

If you don't fight enough -> you will fight like the way you want to -> the TMA style you create will be like TMA.

What's your opinion on this?


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## skribs (Jan 29, 2022)

I hear this a lot from people who don't understand how TMAs work.  They look at something in the art, such as a form, drill, or a point-based sparring system and think that's how that martial art would fight.  It would be the same as if someone were to watch a boxer do speed bag drills and say he didn't have any power, or to look at a BJJ fighter pull guard and say he didn't have any standup.


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## drop bear (Jan 29, 2022)

No. Because Steven Thompson.


The issue you mostly have is anyone who is any good, fights like a kickboxer. So to get trained by someone who has a vague clue what he is on about you nearly always need to turn to kickboxing. 

Basically the pathways that lead to being good tend to bottle neck stylistically.

There are people who break this cycle. Steven Thompson for Karate. Moontosari for TKD. There are sanda guys and so on. But they are few and far between. And so harder to access. 

So basically if someone wanted to be good. And he had the choice between say a fairly average kickboxer with 20 fights who will generally train guys for chump change. And then access to kickboxing competitions mabye held every weekend if he wants.

Or obscure style from a guy with no fights. And no vehicle to test or develop their ability. And probably for considerably more money. 

It is a fairly easy choice.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 29, 2022)

If your "goal" is to develop a toolbox that contain

- hook punch,
- roundhouse kick,
- elbow lock,
- hip throw,
- side mount,
- ...,

which MA system will you use as your "path" to reach to your goal?

If a MA system doesn't help you to achieve your goal, is that MA system no good?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your "goal" is to develop a toolbox that contain
> 
> - hook punch,
> - roundhouse kick,
> ...



Speaking strictly for myself, that is not my goal. 



> If a MA system doesn't help you to achieve your goal, is that MA system no good?


Again, speaking strictly for myself, the system that I train is a good match for me and suits me well.  I guess I don’t really think in terms of goals in my training. 

Taking your above statement as a hypothetical, what it means is that the method is not a good match for you, or you received poor instruction or you don’t properly understand it.  Any of those possibilities, and probably some others, could be the case.  It may be that it is no good, for you.  It does not mean the the method itself is no good on some objective level.


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## BrendanF (Jan 30, 2022)

skribs said:


> I hear this a lot from people who don't understand how TMAs work.  They look at something in the art, such as a form, drill, or a point-based sparring system and think that's how that martial art would fight.  It would be the same as if someone were to watch a boxer do speed bag drills and say he didn't have any power, or to look at a BJJ fighter pull guard and say he didn't have any standup.



I get your point - I'm familiar with arts which use training/conditioning exercises that are not necessarily intended to reflect the style.  

I have however left arts because there were forms and exercises which were explicitly meant to reflect the fighting style, and absolutely didn't.  Age 18 I studied Choy Lay Fut for a time, and left because the senior students looked like kickboxers when they sparred.


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## skribs (Jan 30, 2022)

BrendanF said:


> I get your point - I'm familiar with arts which use training/conditioning exercises that are not necessarily intended to reflect the style.
> 
> I have however left arts because there were forms and exercises which were explicitly meant to reflect the fighting style, and absolutely didn't.  Age 18 I studied Choy Lay Fut for a time, and left because the senior students looked like kickboxers when they sparred.



If you're going to leave an art because they don't live up to their claims, you can put pretty much any art on the list.  Every single art is overrated by those who train it (and underrated by those who don't).  

Look at what the Gracie's say about BJJ in the video below.  Especially starting around 2:20.  






The sales pitch is that every other martial art just stands there trading punches until someone goes down.  This ignores two things:

Every other grappling art, including arts like wrestling and Judo (the later of which BJJ was based on)
The fact that most striking arts are about *not* getting hit while you're striking, instead of trading blows
What he says about BJJ and the ideas of safe zones is absolutely correct.  In fact, it's a concept you see in striking arts like boxing and TKD.  But what he says about how others fight is entirely incorrect.

This is actually one of the reasons I'm so critical of the TKD poomsae in other threads.  Because if you claim it's how you would really fight, you're selling falsehoods or bad ideas.  If you don't make that claim, but rather claim that they are aesthetic versions of techniques done for physical and mental wellness and coordination, then you're above board.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2022)

Something to consider.... why and how did BJJ develope? Why, and how did many TMA styles develope? Not defending TMA, or BJJ, but the origins and the reasons for the development of the two are vastly different.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2022)

Training in a traditional martial art is not about collecting techniques.  It is about understanding principles of effective and powerful movement.  The techniques are examples of those principles in action, so we practice the techniques in order to develop that skill.  More complex combinations like forms create more challenging examples of those principles in motion, and make you work hard to keep the principles in tact under a rapidly changing scenario.  This raises the difficulty in training, and is part of the process of developing skill.  Forms often do not map out what combat should look like.  They give you options and they give you a vision of what is possible, but they do not tell you that you MUST fight like THIS. 

The techniques can (and should) be useful on some level, but you don’t have to use them directly, once you really understand the principles.  Then, you can engage those principles in any way that you want.  Fighting can look like anything, including kickboxing.  If you are engaging the principles, then yes, you are using your system, regardless of what it looks like. 

A martial system has a particular look about it when it is being trained.  But it can look like anything when it is being used in a real fight.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 30, 2022)

This just goes around and around and around. It's a strawman argument.  

"Here is the ideal goal. Your TMA can't give you that, therefore it sucks."

"That is not my goal."

"Then you cannot fight."

"I do not train strictly to fight, and you don't understand the principles of TMA enough to criticize it."

"If you do not fight, your TMA sucks."

I'm tired of it. I know how to fight. I've been in more than a couple. I don't need to be told what you think my system lacks. I don't train to fight the way you think I should. I don't even train to fight anymore. I train because I'm on a path that gives me something I value.

I do not need or want your validation that my art meets your requirements. It meets mine. Are we clear?


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## Steve (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Training in a traditional martial art is not about collecting techniques.  It is about understanding principles of effective and powerful movement.  The techniques are examples of those principles in action, so we practice the techniques in order to develop that skill.  More complex combinations like forms create more challenging examples of those principles in motion, and make you work hard to keep the principles in tact under a rapidly changing scenario.  This raises the difficulty in training, and is part of the process of developing skill.  Forms often do not map out what combat should look like.  They give you options and they give you a vision of what is possible, but they do not tell you that you MUST fight like THIS.
> 
> The techniques can (and should) be useful on some level, but you don’t have to use them directly, once you really understand the principles.  Then, you can engage those principles in any way that you want.  Fighting can look like anything, including kickboxing.  If you are engaging the principles, then yes, you are using your system, regardless of what it looks like.
> 
> A martial system has a particular look about it when it is being trained.  But it can look like anything when it is being used in a real fight.


The idea behind participating in any tradition is to perpetuate the tradition.  Priority number one. 

  Failing to understand that over arching truth is why many (not all) traditional arts atrophy or suffer from people who think they can fight, but who have no idea what that means.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 30, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Something to consider.... why and how did BJJ develope? Why, and how did many TMA styles develope? Not defending TMA, or BJJ, but the origins and the reasons for the development of the two are vastly different.


Well said. The right tool for a specific job.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Training in a traditional martial art is not about collecting techniques.  It is about understanding principles of effective and powerful movement.  The techniques are examples of those principles in action, so we practice the techniques in order to develop that skill.  More complex combinations like forms create more challenging examples of those principles in motion, and make you work hard to keep the principles in tact under a rapidly changing scenario.  This raises the difficulty in training, and is part of the process of developing skill.  Forms often do not map out what combat should look like.  They give you options and they give you a vision of what is possible, but they do not tell you that you MUST fight like THIS.
> 
> The techniques can (and should) be useful on some level, but you don’t have to use them directly, once you really understand the principles.  Then, you can engage those principles in any way that you want.  Fighting can look like anything, including kickboxing.  If you are engaging the principles, then yes, you are using your system, regardless of what it looks like.
> 
> A martial system has a particular look about it when it is being trained.  But it can look like anything when it is being used in a real fight.


Even better! This we agree on completely.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 30, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This just goes around and around and around. It's a strawman argument.
> 
> "Here is the ideal goal. Your TMA can't give you that, therefore it sucks."
> 
> ...


Another perfectly articulated post. Well said.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> The idea behind participating in any tradition is to perpetuate the tradition.  Priority number one.
> 
> Failing to understand that over arching truth is why many (not all) traditional arts atrophy or suffer from people who think they can fight, but who have no idea what that means.


No doubt about it there are a lot of low quality schools out there.


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## jks9199 (Jan 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread, people mentioned that one may train TMA but fight like kickboxer. If the TMA founder had fighting experience, should the style that he created be more like kickboxing?
> 
> For example, if an ancient TMA master fought all his life, in one of his fights, he found out that the roundhouse kick and hook punch worked very well. When he created his TMA system, should he include the roundhouse kick and hook punch into his training?
> 
> ...


I'd modify that...

If you fight enough *in a kingboxing ring under kickboxing rules*, you will fight like a kickboxer and your style will look like kickboxing.

If you fight enough in a bullfighting ring, your style will look like a torreador. 

The environment shapes the function; so does the purpose or goal.  Lately, the whole "does it work in the octagon" thing has led a lot of folks down major rabbit holes and they conflate that environment with practical function.  Then they wonder why either TMAs don't work in the ring, or why the ring doesn't work in the real world.  There's transfer, but it's important to realize that there are differences, too.  That's not to say that TMAs haven't got things to learn from the ring or live training... but it's important to reflect on the purposes of activities and training, rather than focus on the activity itself.  I don't bench press to be able to push heavy things out from my chest; the combination of muscles worked transfers to several different funtional events, like catching myself in a fall or throwing a punch.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> The idea behind participating in any tradition is to perpetuate the tradition.  Priority number one.
> 
> Failing to understand that over arching truth is why many (not all) traditional arts atrophy or suffer from people who think they can fight, but who have no idea what that means.


The system I train in and teach includes several traditional CMA styles. It also includes the jabs, hooks, uppercuts and feints of western boxing. It also includes takedown defense etc. it does not include the traditional weapons training and most forms are not taught for about the first year or more. I focus movement with balance, posture, and coordination. So, while we practice TCMA, My Sigung and Sifu have incorporated these other concepts and movements of western boxing and takedown defense into the system. Sifu Woo was continually evolving the system based on real experience with what works. Gene Lebell was a close friend of his, I’m certain that had some effect on the way we do things. I guess what I’m trying to say is that each system has merits. I tend to think of them as ingredients. In the end,  the recipe is about motion. The practitioner in relationship to himself. Humans all have the same parts that work similarly to one degree or another. I think staying true to the foundations of movement and physics as principles over technique or style prevents stagnation. That said, I dont begin to believe that I necessarily know better that my predecessors. I’m careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread, people mentioned that one may train TMA but fight like kickboxer. If the TMA founder had fighting experience, should the style that he created be more like kickboxing?
> 
> For example, if an ancient TMA master fought all his life, in one of his fights, he found out that the roundhouse kick and hook punch worked very well. When he created his TMA system, should he include the roundhouse kick and hook punch into his training?
> 
> ...


I think it's reverse.  

If you don't fight enough the style you create will be like kickboxing

If you fight enough the style you create will be like TMA

The only reason I say this because the natural development is to find an unexpected strike to hit your opponent with.  Once every one knows the basics they expect to be attack with the basics.  The fight will be harder because there's no advantage.  In order to get the advantage,  you create a new technique to attack with.  We actually see this play out in MMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> roundhouse kick


I think this is actually in TMA in the form of an iron broom sweep. 





I train this sweep to use the rear and lead leg.  When it's done from the lead leg it feels more like a round house kick.  When my son and I train this on the heavy bags we raise the sweep.

Here are some sweeps here and you can see hints of that round house motion


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Training in a traditional martial art is not about collecting techniques.


This is where I see many kung fu practitioners get things wrong. There is a mindset where one's skill is tied to how many forms they know.  Similar to how some people tie skill level to black belts.   A person who could fight using only the techniques in the beginner form would still be seen as a beginner, simply because he only knows the beginner form.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is where I see many kung fu practitioners get things wrong. There is a mindset where one's skill is tied to how many forms they know.  Similar to how some people tie skill level to black belts.   A person who could fight using only the techniques in the beginner form would still be seen as a beginner, simply because he only knows the beginner form.


Small circle Jiu Jitsu Wally Jay style focused on only about twelve techniques over and over but those guys were incredibly good fighters.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Small circle Jiu Jitsu Wally Jay style focused on only about twelve techniques over and over but those guys were incredibly good fighters.


And you begin to understand how that small core of techniques can be applied creatively, in nearly infinite situations.  They are effective solutions to nearly any problem you might encounter.


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## skribs (Jan 30, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This just goes around and around and around. It's a strawman argument.
> 
> "Here is the ideal goal. Your TMA can't give you that, therefore it sucks."
> 
> ...



The problem I have with this line of thinking, is that it suggests that you can't learn to fight from an art.  It's like we're accepting that we're inferior.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

skribs said:


> The problem I have with this line of thinking, is that it suggests that you can't learn to fight from an art.  It's like we're accepting that we're inferior.


More like you can't learn to fight without doing it.  We can learn kata or forms without doing them. The more we do it the better we get.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Small circle Jiu Jitsu Wally Jay style focused on only about twelve techniques over and over but those guys were incredibly good fighters.


One technique may have many applications and many variations. It's one of the things I like about squeezing as much out of Jow Ga before I go to the next technique. 10+ years and I'm still learning new stuff from the beginner form.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 30, 2022)

skribs said:


> The problem I have with this line of thinking, is that it suggests that you can't learn to fight from an art.  It's like we're accepting that we're inferior.


To me, it's a case of horses for courses. If I wanted to learn to fight MMA style, then there are ways to train for that. I don't. And yet, some suggest that yes I do, or they suggest that it's what I should properly want to do, and I do not. Period. It's a classic straw man, assume I want something I don't want, and then explain how what I do won't get me there. I'm frankly sick of it.

As to inferior, my art is neither inferior nor superior. I am not the pinnacle of isshinryu perfection and I will never be that. Yet I am well equipped to defend myself against the average knucklehead, which is just fine with me. I don't dream of MMA glory or back-alley brawling with street fighters. And such situations will never happen to me, so I'm good.

I'm just so tired of this never-ending style bashing. I do what I do for reasons that are not open to anyone else's judgment. They do what they do. I neither know nor do I care if they can outfight me with their amazing incredible techniques. Good for them. 

To the OP, you need your style to be better than mine. Ok, it's better. We good now? I don't care. About you or your style.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> I'd modify that...
> 
> If you fight enough *in a kingboxing ring under kickboxing rules*, you will fight like a kickboxer and your style will look like kickboxing.


Here is my question:

 If your MA system doesn't train

- head dodging,
- roundhouse kick,

will you be able to develop those skills through sparring?

Here is my personal experience.

- During the early stage of my long fist training, we used the rule that 1 person played offense and 1 person played defense. When I played defense, since I could not fight back, I developed head dodging (move my head left, right, back, ...) through sparring.

- If my opponent and I both have right side forward, when my opponent switches sides (put his left side forward), my left leg roundhouse kick will go toward his waist without thinking. I developed roundhouse kick through sparring.

The interested thing is my primary long fist system doesn't train head dodging and roundhouse kick during the beginner stage. But through sparring, I could developed both.

At that time, I was young, lived in Taiwan (1964). The kickboxing was not even created yet. Of course in those sparring, we used a lot of foot sweep that kickboxers don't normally use.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> A martial system has a particular look about it when it is being trained.  But it can look like anything when it is being used in a real fight.


IMO, form training and fighting should not be too far apart.

If you have never jumped up in your form training, there is no way that suddenly you can use flying side kick in fighting.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> will you be able to develop those skills through sparring?


Yes. When you play dodgeball do you not dodge? When you play more dodgeball do you not get better at dodging?

For the most part I don't think it needs to be trained.  In terms of TMA the dodge mechanism is built in the technique or footwork which is why 45° angle and the 90° angle is common in all fighting systems. 

The student only needs to follow instruction and he or she will have a short path to learning.  Or the student can ignore the instructions and learn the hard way through first hand experience.



Bill Mattocks said:


> To me, it's a case of horses for courses. If I wanted to learn to fight MMA style, then there are ways to train for that. I don't. And yet, some suggest that yes I do, or they suggest that it's what I should properly want to do, and I do not. Period. It's a classic straw man, assume I want something I don't want, and then explain how what I do won't get me there. I'm frankly sick of it.
> 
> As to inferior, my art is neither inferior nor superior. I am not the pinnacle of isshinryu perfection and I will never be that. Yet I am well equipped to defend myself against the average knucklehead, which is just fine with me. I don't dream of MMA glory or back-alley brawling with street fighters. And such situations will never happen to me, so I'm good.
> 
> ...


I don't think Kung Fu Wang is asking because he doesn't know.  I think he's asking because he wants people to think.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, form training and fighting should not be too far apart.
> 
> If you have never jumped up in your form training, there is no way that suddenly you can use flying side kick in fighting.


I would never use a flying side kick in fighting.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, form training and fighting should not be too far apart.


Only if you want to use it in fighting.  For example.  I can swim. But what I use in swimming is not good for competition and racing.  Should I always train my swimming as if I'm trying to compete?

Do I need to train hard to enjoy swimming?  If my only goal is to enjoy Kung Fu then there's no need for me to worry about application and hard training.  But for me my goal is to be a good representation of Jow Ga.  That means I must train harder and understand more than I would if I only want to enjoy it. 

Do I need to be a programmer in order to enjoy a video game?  Game designers like games but they must know more about them than I do.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think Kung Fu Wang is asking because he doesn't know.  I think he's asking because he wants people to think.


I disagree. I believe he is asking because he has an agenda. He simply ignores any answer or point of view which does not support his agenda.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I would never use a flying side kick in fighting.


It's great in the movies.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I would never use a flying side kick in fighting.


I used one, only once.. It didn't work well.  I would still use one but only if my opponent didn't know it was coming and didn't know I was coming.





I think Hollywood has warped the true application of a kick like that. The kick is more something that you would do if you were charging someone that didn't have a lot of mobility like a defensive line of people trying to prevent entry.  The flying side kick doesn't make sense nor does it work really well when fighting one on one.  But think of a scenario where your opponent doesn't have a lot of movement or if your opponent is fairly static and it begins to make sense. 





But with that said, some people have gotten away with it.  Just not me.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I used one, only once.. It didn't work well.  I would still use one but only if my opponent didn't know it was coming and didn't know I was coming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I used to train it in the heavy bag regularly, so I am quite familiar.  I would never use one in a fight.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I used to train it in the heavy bag regularly, so I am quite familiar.  I would never use one in a fight.


We probably should find that link of the thread with our previous discussion about flying side kicks.  It's not the first time we've been on this path lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I would never use a flying side kick in fighting.


A 45 degree downward flying side kick at opponent's front leg knee joint is an excellent entering strategy. It puts opponent in a complete defense mode. The leading leg knee joint is the "only" target for my "flying side kick".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I disagree. I believe he is asking because he has an agenda. He simply ignores any answer or point of view which does not support his agenda.


When people said, "You fight like a kickboxer." I truly don't understand the meaning of that. That's why I start this thread. I would like to ask people's opinions about, "What's a non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like?"

I'm not ignoring people's opinions. I just don't want to get into argument. Of course I have my own personal opinion (to me, MA is for combat and nothing else). But that doesn't mean when other has different opinion (such as MA is for health, performance, culture, inner peace, ...), I have to argue with that person.

I don't start a thread so I can argue with people. I prefer to agree with people that I agree with than to disagree with people that I don't agree with.


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## Steve (Jan 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The system I train in and teach includes several traditional CMA styles. It also includes the jabs, hooks, uppercuts and feints of western boxing. It also includes takedown defense etc. it does not include the traditional weapons training and most forms are not taught for about the first year or more. I focus movement with balance, posture, and coordination. So, while we practice TCMA, My Sigung and Sifu have incorporated these other concepts and movements of western boxing and takedown defense into the system. Sifu Woo was continually evolving the system based on real experience with what works. Gene Lebell was a close friend of his, I’m certain that had some effect on the way we do things. I guess what I’m trying to say is that each system has merits. I tend to think of them as ingredients. In the end,  the recipe is about motion. The practitioner in relationship to himself. Humans all have the same parts that work similarly to one degree or another. I think staying true to the foundations of movement and physics as principles over technique or style prevents stagnation. That said, I dont begin to believe that I necessarily know better that my predecessors. I’m careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.


A carpenter who uses only traditional hand tools still builds actual stuff.  A traditional martial artist who has never been in a fight is not doing the same thing his predecessors did.   This is where the LARP descriptor is used.  Though I personally think that’s insulting to LARPers because they are, in general, self aware and having fun.


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## BrendanF (Jan 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people said, "You fight like a kickboxer." I truly don't understand the meaning of that. That's why I start this thread. I would like to ask people's opinions about, "What's a non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like?"



This is the issue many people have with traditional martial arts that practice or teach stylised techniques.  Of course fighting is going to look like fighting, so the practicing of stylised techniques invariably amounts to little.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2022)

What should a non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like? 

- no roundhouse kick?
- no hook punch?
- no uppercut?
- no ... ?

Can anybody put up a fighting clip that doesn't look like a kickboxing fight?

Does all Sanda fight look like kickboxing fight?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2022)

BrendanF said:


> This is the issue many people have with traditional martial arts that practice or teach stylised techniques.  Of course fighting is going to look like fighting, so the practicing of stylised techniques invariably amounts to little.


Here is a good example that I prefer to say that I agree with you instead of to say that I disagree with somebody else.

IMO, the kickboxing is a natural way of fighting.

We all know that left hook, right hook combo is effective. Whether it exists in your MA system or not, as long as you spar long enough, you will start to use it.






Here is the roundhouse kick that I'm talking about. When you have right leg forward and your opponent has left leg forward, your left leg roundhouse kick just kick out without thinking (even if you may have never trained the roundhouse kick). The open is there. The roundhouse kick is the most logic attack right at that moment.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2022)

BrendanF said:


> This is the issue many people have with traditional martial arts that practice or teach stylised techniques.  Of course fighting is going to look like fighting, so the practicing of stylised techniques invariably amounts to little.



Not true.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> If you are engaging the principles, then yes, you are using your system, regardless of what it looks like.


Agree with you on this. 

I like to 

- move around in circle (toward my opponent's blind side). I don't like to hop up and down. 
- knock my opponent's punch down. I don't like to dodge a punch.
- use long guard. I don't like to use short boxing guard.
- ...

I don't know what's non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like. But I just move the way that I feel right.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> A carpenter who uses only traditional hand tools still builds actual stuff.  A traditional martial artist who has never been in a fight is not doing the same thing his predecessors did.   This is where the LARP descriptor is used.  Though I personally think that’s insulting to LARPers because they are, in general, self aware and having fun.


Ok, well they both were in plenty of fights. If that’s the yardstick then I meet the standard as well. I’m not understanding your point here.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> A carpenter who uses only traditional hand tools still builds actual stuff.  A traditional martial artist who has never been in a fight is not doing the same thing his predecessors did.   This is where the LARP descriptor is used.  Though I personally think that’s insulting to LARPers because they are, in general, self aware and having fun.


So would my students need to get into fights to make legitimate what they learned? I’m sure I’m missing something here.


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## Steve (Jan 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok, well they both were in plenty of fights. If that’s the yardstick then I meet the standard as well. I’m not understanding your point here.


We have a few categories of folks here, but I think the meaningful distinction isn’t MMA vs TMA.  It’s people who fight and people who don’t fight.  Or maybe people who have fought and people who haven’t.   Does that help?


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## Steve (Jan 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> So would my students need to get into fights to make legitimate what they learned? I’m sure I’m missing something here.


I think your students should understand that if they’ve never been in a fight, they really ought not to teach it because they may stink at it and not even know it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> people who have fought and people who haven’t.


One guy who wrestled with me for a long time had developed an "outer hook" throwing skill that nobody ever taught him before.

If you throw a right hook punch at your opponent's head, most of the time, your opponent may dodge under your punch. You can then either

- change your right hook into a right back fist and hit on top of his head, or
- use a left uppercut to hit his face.

Even if your MA system may not have back fist, or uppercut, you may develop both skills in sparring. The reason is simple. Those are the most logic follow up after your hook punch.

In other words, by using your logic and common sense, you will develop some useful tools in sparring/wrestling even if those tools may not be popular used in your MA system.

I strongly believe our ancient MA founders developed their skill through sparring/wrestling before they created their MA systems.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> We have a few categories of folks here, but I think the meaningful distinction isn’t MMA vs TMA.  It’s people who fight and people who don’t fight.  Or maybe people who have fought and people who haven’t.   Does that help?


I think I know what you mean now. Thank you, yes that helps. I believe we agree on this. I don’t encourage nor discourage what people want to do with it. If they train, it’s theirs to do with what they choose. I do make sure that they understand all the ramifications of the choices they may make in regards to what I teach them.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think your students should understand that if they’ve never been in a fight, they really ought not to teach it because they may stink at it and not even know it.


None of them should be teaching. That’s nowhere near for the most of them. My students backgrounds vary quite a bit. Some will never fight, some can’t wait to get in a ring, some are quiet but more likely to do it for real. Hard to say what is to come. I grew up in a lot of violence so it’s hard for me to compare myself to others. Most people get a choice, but I didn’t.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think your students should understand that if they’ve never been in a fight, they really ought not to teach it because they may stink at it and not even know it.


True to your point, the common reaction from people who haven’t fought when they put gloves on and a mouthguard in is to fall apart. Even if they trained for over a year, their breath goes up to the top of their chest and they forget half of what they know. It takes time and patience to get some folks past that. Obviously, this isn’t how folks with some fight experience react.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is where I see many kung fu practitioners get things wrong. There is a mindset where one's skill is tied to how many forms they know.  Similar to how some people tie skill level to black belts.   A person who could fight using only the techniques in the beginner form would still be seen as a beginner, simply because he only knows the beginner form.


That solid ability is contained in the early content is likely true of any coherent system, too. Take the few things a new BJJ students learns, focus on those (and only those and minor variations) for a couple of years, and you'll be better than most folks on the ground. Adding more options does improve what situations you can handle and makes you harder to predict. But the basics are what came first, and will get you past most folks' ability.

The same is true in NGA, boxing, Karate, and everything else I've seen enough of to have a considered opinion.

I think - as you suggest here - the problem arises when we decide someone at a given point in the curriculum is of a given skill level.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> And you begin to understand how that small core of techniques can be applied creatively, in nearly infinite situations.  They are effective solutions to nearly any problem you might encounter.


One of the systems I dabbled in (several months of private lessons) was a fusion of SCJJ and FMA. I only ever saw 3-5 JJ techniques in that time (most of the focus was FMA), but they kept popping up in different situations.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, form training and fighting should not be too far apart.
> 
> If you have never jumped up in your form training, there is no way that suddenly you can use flying side kick in fighting.


That statement assumes there's no other training besides the forms and sparring/fighting. There's a bunch of stuff in my primary art that doesn't show up in any forms (not even the ones I've added). It gets trained separately.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That statement assumes there's no other training besides the forms and sparring/fighting. There's a bunch of stuff in my primary art that doesn't show up in any forms (not even the ones I've added). It gets trained separately.


Same here.  Not everything was taught in forms.  The forms were a catalog of techniques, but the forms didn't have all of the techniques.  There was a lot of that I personally taught that weren't in forms. My teachers did the same thing as well.  Additional things were taught outside of the forms.

Edit: I'm assuming that the stuff that my teachers taught, but weren't in the forms, were the new things that the teachers added over the years and felt that students should know.  Some of it came from other systems, and the teacher always made sure we knew what was Jow Ga and what wasn't.


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## Steve (Jan 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I think I know what you mean now. Thank you, yes that helps. I believe we agree on this. I don’t encourage nor discourage what people want to do with it. If they train, it’s theirs to do with what they choose. I do make sure that they understand all the ramifications of the choices they may make in regards to what I teach them.


I totally agree.  Why people train and what they're looking for is totally up to them.  Where I become skeptical is when their goals and their expectations are out of sync with their training.  And in particular when they believe they know how to do things that they probably don't, and start teaching other people.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> I totally agree.  Why people train and what they're looking for is totally up to them.  Where I become skeptical is when their goals and their expectations are out of sync with their training.  And in particular when they believe they know how to do things that they probably don't, and start teaching other people.


Well I remember waking up with my face stuck to the pavement with my own dried blood and wondering how come I was looking at a tire. That was when I realized maybe I didn’t know how to fight as well as I thought. I was 17 at the time. There are hard lessons to learn for people who delude themselves. My hope is that I keep it completely true and honest with what I teach and expectations of what people can and cannot do.


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## Steve (Jan 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well I remember waking up with my face stuck to the pavement with my own dried blood and wondering how come I was looking at a tire. That was when I realized maybe I didn’t know how to fight as well as I thought. I was 17 at the time. There are hard lessons to learn for people who delude themselves. My hope is that I keep it completely true and honest with what I teach and expectations of what people can and cannot do.


Reminds me of an old Mike Hammer book... opening line was something like (paraphrasing), "I woke up that morning lying face down in the gutter lying in a pool of my own vomit." 

Regarding people... I'm less charitable with adults, but in particular for kids, it bothers me a lot.  It can be devastating to a kid's self image for them to experience a crisis like this, where they believe they are skilled and find out that they are not. 

I hope this is a complete thought... I'm splitting my attention, so if I need to fill in some blanks later, let me know.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> Where I become skeptical is when their goals and their expectations are out of sync with their training.


This is where I my issue begins and ends.  While I wish everyone would train it as a fighting system and put in the work to use it.  I'm OK with people just being honest about their training.

People can train for function and still have fun, still exercise, still do cool stuff, all without degrading the system and understanding of it.  I feel the same way with sparring.  Sparring doesn't have to be brutal.  Light sparring is safe and can be functional and fun at the same time.  The most important thing about sparring is that it's always a reality check.  People will know right off the back their limits.   This would go a long way in keeping expectations in check.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Same here.  Not everything was taught in forms.  The forms were a catalog of techniques, but the forms didn't have all of the techniques.  There was a lot of that I personally taught that weren't in forms. My teachers did the same thing as well.  Additional things were taught outside of the forms.
> 
> Edit: I'm assuming that the stuff that my teachers taught, but weren't in the forms, were the new things that the teachers added over the years and felt that students should know.  Some of it came from other systems, and the teacher always made sure we knew what was Jow Ga and what wasn't.


Within NGA, there's a significant body of stuff that "is NGA" that isn't in any of the classical forms. It's taught in every NGA school, and apparently was part of the curriculum in Japan. The forms were meant to be specific training tools, rather than containers of the art.


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## Steve (Jan 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is where I my issue begins and ends.  While I wish everyone would train it as a fighting system and put in the work to use it.  I'm OK with people just being honest about their training.


Me too, pretty much.  I have friends who are into all kinds of things, and as long as it isn't harmful, cruel, or demeaning to themselves or others, I'm pretty much all for it.  Folks have all kinds of kinks and quirks.  Bronies, furries, larpers, gamers, gay, straight, polyamorous, non-binary... whatever it is.  If it works for you, is fun for you, and you aren't harming yourself or others, knock yourself out.

I have played role playing games since 1981, and it was SUPER NERDY for a long time.  I was a nerd when being a nerd wasn't cool.  So, I think I'm about as "live and let live" as I can be.  And that's how I view most martial arts.  If you want to train toad style kung fu, great.  There are things I like about most styles


JowGaWolf said:


> People can train for function and still have fun, still exercise, still do cool stuff, all without degrading the system and understanding of it.  I feel the same way with sparring.  Sparring doesn't have to be brutal.  Light sparring is safe and can be functional and fun at the same time.  The most important thing about sparring is that it's always a reality check.  People will know right off the back their limits.   This would go a long way in keeping expectations in check.


Heck yeah.  But it can also be fun, good exercise, and cool... and be entirely impractical.  And still be worth training for the fun, the exercise, maybe cultural preservation... and a host of other great reasons.  

I don't like con artists.  I don't like when folks are sold bunk.  And given the stakes involved here, it's not harmless to convince someone they can learn to fight without fighting, and get to a point where they can even teach other people to fight without having ever been in a fight.  Worst case, it's predatory and dangerous.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> Reminds me of an old Mike Hammer book... opening line was something like (paraphrasing), "I woke up that morning lying face down in the gutter lying in a pool of my own vomit."
> 
> Regarding people... I'm less charitable with adults, but in particular for kids, it bothers me a lot.  It can be devastating to a kid's self image for them to experience a crisis like this, where they believe they are skilled and find out that they are not.
> 
> I hope this is a complete thought... I'm splitting my attention, so if I need to fill in some blanks later, let me know.


Worst part was the bus drivers kept driving past me because I was such a mess and it took me quite a while to get home to Long Beach from L.A. It definitely changed my view of fighting reality. Honestly, it wasn’t the worst beating Ive had. I have had a few. Stabbed twice, batted, cue stick, shot at, broken bones, etc. I never did much competition except as a boy, but I’m well versed in the reality of street fighting, which is why I get so annoyed with people telling me about what works and what doesn’t. I’ve been to jail for this stuff several times before the age of 18 and saw someone die in a fight for the first time at the age of 5 on a walk with my grandfather. My story isn’t unique or special but it’s not that common either. I try to keep it realistic because my students will not likely have those kinds of experiences. Its a balancing act that has to be tailored to each individual. What works for one might not be good for another. I don’t tell those stories to the 68 year old that shows up to Tai chi on Sunday morning.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not everything was taught in forms.


If you don't record information into your forms, where do you record it? You may record your information as drill 1, drill 2, .., drill 299, drill 300. For a teacher, does that teacher even remember what drill 278 is when he is 80 years old?

We all know what Shakespeare wrote. We don't know what Shakespeare didn't write.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Training in a traditional martial art is not about collecting techniques.


But if you don't have enough tools in your toolbox, you won't have when you need it.

For example, when your opponent switch sides, if you don't have roundhouse kick as one of your tools, you may miss this opportunity, the most logic attack for that opportunity.

This is why I don't understand when people say, "You fight like a kickboxer". You just do the right thing at the right time.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But if you don't have enough tools in your toolbox, you won't have when you need it.



You do learn techniques as part of the training process.  As I said, you practice techniques as a way of understanding the principles; the techniques are examples of the principles in use.  So yes, learning techniques is part of the natural progression.  But a coherent martial method is not just a collection of techniques.  It is a thoughtful use of principles, and techniques that are highly functional when built upon those principles.  Which is not just a mish-mash collection of every technique that you ever saw someone do and you decided you must have it. 


> For example, when your opponent switch sides, if you don't have roundhouse kick as one of your tools, you may miss this opportunity, the most logic attack for that opportunity.



I don’t know that I would assess that in the same way.  But if it works for you, ok.


> This is why I don't understand when people say, "You fight like a kickboxer". You just do the right thing at the right time.


I agree.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2022)

br


Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't record information into your forms, where do you record it?


Through words and action.
Do parents have to record how to ride a bike in order to teach children?
There are a lot of sports that are taught from parent to child and there's no form recorded to teach those skill sets.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> For a teacher, does that teacher even remember what drill 278 is when he is 80 years old?


I taught my son how to ride a bike.  He learned before I turned 80.  I'm teaching my son how to strike a heavy bag. He will learn it completely before I turn 80.

You teach before you forget and you take notes along the way about the things that you are most likely to forget.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Do parents have to record how to ride a bike in order to teach children?


It's 21th century. Everything can be digitalized.

Today you can google "how to ride bike". Someone has spent time to record that information on the internet.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> you take notes along the way about the things that you are most likely to forget.


The problem is if you lose your notes, you'll lose that information forever. If you record a technique into a form and past it to other people, you'll have more people who can help you to preserve that information.

For example, the 13 Taibo is 13 postures that one can use to train MA skill. Those 13 postures has no particular order. It's very difficult for anybody to remember it as posture 1, posture 2, ... posture 13. I created a form and link it in a sequence. It's so easy to learn, and so easy to teach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't record information into your forms, where do you record it? You may record your information as drill 1, drill 2, .., drill 299, drill 300. For a teacher, does that teacher even remember what drill 278 is when he is 80 years old?
> 
> We all know what Shakespeare wrote. We don't know what Shakespeare didn't write.


We have plenty of examples of folks talking about meaning of forms getting lost. Just because a series of movements is in a form, that doesn't ensure the principles are passed along properly. The best hope of passing along an art is to leave behind folks who understand the art's principles.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But if you don't have enough tools in your toolbox, you won't have when you need it.
> 
> For example, when your opponent switch sides, if you don't have roundhouse kick as one of your tools, you may miss this opportunity, the most logic attack for that opportunity.
> 
> This is why I don't understand when people say, "You fight like a kickboxer". You just do the right thing at the right time.


There are plenty of other ways to attack someone in that transition, and plenty of other opportunities. Boxing is a great example of how well someone can learn to fight with a lot of missing tools.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's 21th century. Everything can be digitalized.
> 
> Today you can google "how to ride bike". Someone has spent time to record that information on the internet.


For some of us, there's just no need. Nobody will be studying my teaching methods after I'm gone.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The problem is if you lose your notes, you'll lose that information forever.


This is why it's important to teach so that the information survives. 


Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's 21th century. Everything can be digitalized.


I agree. Notes are notes be it on paper or camera.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> The problem is if you lose your notes, you'll lose that information forever.


You can lose digital information forever as well.  



Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you record a technique into a form and past it to other people, you'll have more people who can help you to preserve that information.


I agree with this provided that the teacher has some validity. It's one of the reason I don't mind recording my training. I don't like the "perfection" of kung fu where students think they can't show their skill set unless they are "perfect". I like to see people go through the learning process and not just the final result.

The benefit of video is that it captures movement. Seeing something performed is better than screen shots or words trying to described what should be done. I think of it like cooking.  It's easier for me to follow a recipe when I can see it done then read it.  When I see people cook, I can also see the things that aren't in the recipe.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> For some of us, there's just no need. Nobody will be studying my teaching methods after I'm gone.


I think you would be surprised.


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## Steve (Jan 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Worst part was the bus drivers kept driving past me because I was such a mess and it took me quite a while to get home to Long Beach from L.A. It definitely changed my view of fighting reality. Honestly, it wasn’t the worst beating Ive had. I have had a few. Stabbed twice, batted, cue stick, shot at, broken bones, etc. I never did much competition except as a boy, but I’m well versed in the reality of street fighting, which is why I get so annoyed with people telling me about what works and what doesn’t. I’ve been to jail for this stuff several times before the age of 18 and saw someone die in a fight for the first time at the age of 5 on a walk with my grandfather. My story isn’t unique or special but it’s not that common either. I try to keep it realistic because my students will not likely have those kinds of experiences. Its a balancing act that has to be tailored to each individual. What works for one might not be good for another. I don’t tell those stories to the 68 year old that shows up to Tai chi on Sunday morning.


Sounds like you’ve got some real life experience with violence.  I don’t have any experience that could compare with that though I have to say you brought back some memories.  I’ve never been beaten quite so bad, but I’ve been on the wrong side of plenty of fights. When you talk about the bus driver, I know exactly how that feels.  I was much younger but something similar happened.  I was at the school bus stop, 8 years old, and a 12 year old was on top of me beating the snot out of me.  School bus came, kids all got on the bus and he took off leaving me there 



Gerry Seymour said:


> We have plenty of examples of folks talking about meaning of forms getting lost. Just because a series of movements is in a form, that doesn't ensure the principles are passed along properly. The best hope of passing along an art is to leave behind folks who understand the art's principles.


Philosophically, at least.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think you would be surprised.


I have had very few students, and none of my direct students made it anywhere near far enough to continue working with the art when I'm gone - too many stops and starts in a part-time program. I've helped train a few instructors in the past, but with the school they taught at closed, it's likely none will continue teaching. It's unlikely I'll leave a legacy in my art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> Philosophically, at least.


I was speaking of physical principles, so they'd need to understand them more than philosophically if they are to pass along the art well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> The best hope of passing along an art is to leave behind folks who understand the art's principles.


You still think about "teacher-students" model. I'm thinking about the "google engine" model that everybody can learn MA online without teacher.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I have had very few students, and none of my direct students made it anywhere near far enough to continue working with the art when I'm gone - too many stops and starts in a part-time program. I've helped train a few instructors in the past, but with the school they taught at closed, it's likely none will continue teaching. It's unlikely I'll leave a legacy in my art.


You never know what bits and pieces are kept. 

I just created a post how people at the gym are following my instructions when I teach my son.  I'm not teaching them but they watch when I teach my son and then they follow what I teach him.  

Sometimes as a teacher you think what you teach, may not have an impact but it does.  It just not always easy to see where that impact is and if that lesson will be taught again or forgotten forever.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You still think about "teacher-students" model. I'm thinking about the "google engine" model that everybody can learn MA online without teacher.


Didn't method of leaving your knowledge behind for others.  I like that as well because it fits more like a history book.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You still think about "teacher-students" model. I'm thinking about the "google engine" model that everybody can learn MA online without teacher.


I don't think folks can learn a system effectively without a teacher. Those with a foundation can learn techniques without one. Beginners, with a good partner, can learn some basics - much more slowly and less reliably - without one. But a system will never transfer well that way. And a form picked up without feedback from the instructor will become whatever the beginner imagines it is, rather than what it was meant to be.

Here's a good analogy: in a lot of business environments, task-training is done without formal work procedures. So the new person takes a ton of notes during training. Essentially, they have the least experienced person in the room documenting the process. This always introduces some interesting misunderstandings in their notes (I know, because I collect a bunch of these notes when I go into a company to help develop desk-level documentation).

I've seen first-hand how badly things can be misunderstood, while following what looks like (to the beginner) the proper movements. And I don't even have to get into things as hard to understand as aiki. I've seen leg sweeps (Judo's osoto gari) done with very bad mechanics by people who were quite certain they were doing exactly what they were shown. Even working against a sofly-resisting partner, they didn't figure out those basic mechanics over time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> You never know what bits and pieces are kept.
> 
> I just created a post how people at the gym are following my instructions when I teach my son.  I'm not teaching them but they watch when I teach my son and then they follow what I teach him.
> 
> Sometimes as a teacher you think what you teach, may not have an impact but it does.  It just not always easy to see where that impact is and if that lesson will be taught again or forgotten forever.


None of that makes it at all likely there will be someone following my teaching methods when I'm not around. Because I teach differently from others who teach the same art, putting my stuff out there - with no supporting direct instruction - just becomes a confusion for students of other instructors, because those instructors don't know why those things are different.

Sometimes, the things we do are just what they are at the time, and don't have a lasting impact in that way. And that's just fine. I don't teach for legacy, and there's a reason I make sure to build non-martial skills in my MA teaching. Those are the things more likely to have a real impact on folks.


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## Steve (Feb 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I was speaking of physical principles, so they'd need to understand them more than philosophically if they are to pass along the art well.


Maybe, depending on what your expectations are.  You can learn a system, whatever that system might be, and there could be a lot of value in that for you (depending on what you're looking for).

You know, I've always wanted to learn to distill liquor.  I've read several books on how to do it, and know the process.  I was pretty deep into home brewing back in the 90s, and so have a solid understanding of at least the first step, which is to make mash.  I can talk about it.  I continue to learn more ABOUT it.  But I'm no expert.  I've never done it.  And so, I am really careful when I talk about it with folks who do have some expertise, because I'm sure there are a lot of things I don't know that you can't learn intellectually.  The best I can do without a still is to be a very well prepared beginner, so that when I do it the first time I'm not starting from zero.  That's it... the best I can hope for. 

But the reality is, I may never have an opportunity to try it.  And that means two things.  First, if I never have a chance to try it, I'll never be more than a well prepared beginner.  And two, that means I'm never going to be qualified to teach other people to distill liquor.  It would be dangerous for me to try... for them and for me.

And I'm cool with that, because I understand that to become really good at something, you have to do it.  It's not enough to learn about it.  And I also understand that learning complimentary things (like home brewing) is helpful, and can give you a head start, but doesn't guarantee success or expertise into a new context, because homebrewing and distilling liquor are two different things, even if there is some overlap.

But if I had a system where I teach people how to appreciate good liquor, where we actually drink some... now THAT I can learn and teach.  That's my 101 steps to appreciating fine liquor system.  And while you will learn a lot ABOUT the distilling process, it won't teach you to actually distill liquor.  And for many people, that might be all they want or need.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> Maybe, depending on what your expectations are.  You can learn a system, whatever that system might be, and there could be a lot of value in that for you (depending on what you're looking for).
> 
> You know, I've always wanted to learn to distill liquor.  I've read several books on how to do it, and know the process.  I was pretty deep into home brewing back in the 90s, and so have a solid understanding of at least the first step, which is to make mash.  I can talk about it.  I continue to learn more ABOUT it.  But I'm no expert.  I've never done it.  And so, I am really careful when I talk about it with folks who do have some expertise, because I'm sure there are a lot of things I don't know that you can't learn intellectually.  The best I can do without a still is to be a very well prepared beginner, so that when I do it the first time I'm not starting from zero.  That's it... the best I can hope for.
> 
> ...


Don’t blow up your shed! My buddy did that in the late 90s. He too was a home brewer of some skill. Oops! Boom! Luckily he put out the fire before any fire trucks came.


----------



## Steve (Feb 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Don’t blow up your shed! My buddy did that in the late 90s. He too was a home brewer of some skill. Oops! Boom! Luckily he put out the fire before any fire trucks came.


I am going to do some home-distilling at some point.  It's on a long list of things I'm interested to try.  But if I don't, that's okay, too.  

Like many martial artists who have never been in a fight, I might just have to accept that I'll never become an expert distiller, much less competent to teach people the art of distillery.  I might be able to teach some folks the performative elements of how to appreciate good liquor, though.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> I am going to do some home-distilling at some point.  It's on a long list of things I'm interested to try.  But if I don't, that's okay, too.
> 
> Like many martial artists who have never been in a fight, I might just have to accept that I'll never become an expert distiller, much less competent to teach people the art of distillery.  I might be able to teach some folks the performative elements of how to appreciate good liquor, though.


I’m no expert. My unprofessional record probably reads like 20-20-20. I’m guessing, but that’s close. Far from expert, but I’m hopefully retired from that nonsense. Haven’t been in a fight in over 15 years and hoping to keep it that way for good. Im much older and a tad smarter these days. Never too old to taste some homemade shine! Give it a shot, you might be better than you think.


----------



## Grandmaster Yue men quan (Feb 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread, people mentioned that one may train TMA but fight like kickboxer. If the TMA founder had fighting experience, should the style that he created be more like kickboxing?
> 
> For example, if an ancient TMA master fought all his life, in one of his fights, he found out that the roundhouse kick and hook punch worked very well. When he created his TMA system, should he include the roundhouse kick and hook punch into his training?
> 
> ...


A TMA uses parts of the ancient system. It could include systems designed around yin yang theory, orthodox theory, combined diagrams or single diagrams or animal theory. By using one or more of these theory there is a correct way of boxing along each one and it is part of a larger diagram of the same thing that includes more parts and each part is used in a grand scheme of things system. Which has many sub sets and arts in one system. It would be akin to learning all the parts of the mma system like x guard iminari rolls mount guard work ground and pound, judo jujitsu catch wrestling.  Throws takedowns kick boxing muay Thai. And stand up grappling.  It is just a different system format. Kick boxing would be a style of karate developed to fight with muay Thai. Where bagua hsing I and tai chi would be styles of TMA that were complementary. So the question isn't does it look like this or that or can you combine them together thats what we all do its what is the foundation of the system and does it fit you.


----------



## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (Feb 1, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This just goes around and around and around. It's a strawman argument.
> 
> "Here is the ideal goal. Your TMA can't give you that, therefore it sucks."
> 
> ...


Hello Sir, I have trained in several Martial arts for over 30 years. Tang Soo Do, Akido, American Ed Parker Kenpo, TKD, BJJ, etc. And I feel the exact way you do. We don't need anyone's validation to do what we love.  All Martial Arts have a value, it is how we use them that defines our ability.  Thank you.  
Ron


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## Steve (Feb 1, 2022)

KENPO CRAZY said:


> Hello Sir, I have trained in several Martial arts for over 30 years. Tang Soo Do, Akido, American Ed Parker Kenpo, TKD, BJJ, etc. And I feel the exact way you do. We don't need anyone's validation to do what we love.  All Martial Arts have a value, it is how we use them that defines our ability.  Thank you.
> Ron


I think the value statements and validation are self imposed, for the most part.  All martial arts have value.  But value is relative, and often objectively measurable.  A wrench has value... but not as a drill.  A hammer has value, but not as a screwdriver.

Simply put, when @Bill Mattocks says, "If you don't fight, then your style sucks," I'm sure that's what he hears, but seldom what is said.  What is said more often is, "If you don't fight, then you aren't learning to fight."  When people point out this seemingly obvious observation, folks hear, "Your style sucks."  

And if you're not fighting, know you're not fighting, don't want to fight, and aren't interested in learning to fight... that's fine, too.


----------



## jergar (Feb 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread, people mentioned that one may train TMA but fight like kickboxer. If the TMA founder had fighting experience, should the style that he created be more like kickboxing?
> 
> For example, if an ancient TMA master fought all his life, in one of his fights, he found out that the roundhouse kick and hook punch worked very well. When he created his TMA system, should he include the roundhouse kick and hook punch into his training?
> 
> ...


I think the question should be if you train enough in a TMA would you then fight like a kick boxer ? The answer should be no. The movement and techniques from your studies should be engrained in your brain and become an automatic response. Most people will fight like they train. Kick boxers are trained a certain way , in Thailand kickboxing is a traditional martial art. But sure if you see something different that works use it and integrate it into your fighting style . I remember when BJJ hit the United States some of the Masters got together and started working out ways to defeat it using the techniques we already knew by just tweaking the strategies involved.  Peace!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I don't think folks can learn a system effectively without a teacher.


The EE "digital logic design" is a self study course. You study one chapter, you then take the test. If you pass, you study next chapter. This is an example that if the information is recorded completely, self-study is possible.

Many university course just require you to read a book. At the end of that semester, you write a paper. The teacher then grades on your paper. This is an example that even if the information is not recorded completely, self-study is still possible.

IMO, to learn MA before the 21th century without a teacher could be difficult. But today, it's possible.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2022)

jergar said:


> I think the question should be if you train enough in a TMA would you then fight like a kick boxer ? The answer should be no.


Still nobody has explained how a non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like.

Will you call these guys fight like kickboxing just because they throw

- roundhouse kick?
- hook punch?










This Taiji master and white crane master also used hook punches. Did they fight like kickboxer?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think the value statements and validation are self imposed, for the most part.  All martial arts have value.  But value is relative, and often objectively measurable.  A wrench has value... but not as a drill.  A hammer has value, but not as a screwdriver.
> 
> Simply put, when @Bill Mattocks says, "If you don't fight, then your style sucks," I'm sure that's what he hears, but seldom what is said.  What is said more often is, "If you don't fight, then you aren't learning to fight."  When people point out this seemingly obvious observation, folks hear, "Your style sucks."
> 
> And if you're not fighting, know you're not fighting, don't want to fight, and aren't interested in learning to fight... that's fine, too.


I would add to this, that there is a difference between training to fight vs. training to be able to fight. If I know I’m going to have a fight in 2 months then those two months leading up to the fight are going to be a much more intense and focused type of training than my everyday training.


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## Steve (Feb 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I would add to this, that there is a difference between training to fight vs. training to be able to fight. If I know I’m going to have a fight in 2 months then those two months leading up to the fight are going to be a much more intense and focused type of training than my everyday training.


I see your point.  I might disagree a bit, though.  Not with the impact.  Deadlines can really focus training and drive performance.  On that, we agree completely. 

This may sound counterintuitive, but sometimes, it can be really productive to set seemingly unreasonable goals, even.  @drop bear's school does this with their new fighter program (I can't remember the details, but people with no training get a fight in like 2 months or something.)  I've heard them called many things, but in the corporate world, they're referred to as Big Hairy Audacious Goals (BHAGs).  Idea is, if you only ever deal with reasonable, achievable goals, you are imposing limits.  Sometimes, it's good to set a goal that is audacious and aspirational.  You might get there.  But even if you don't achieve that goal, you will probably find you've done more than you thought possible. 

But back to the point, with or without a deadline, you need feedback on performance.  And you can't get that unless you perform.   The feedback loop is important.  In order to get to the point where you can say, "Hey, that didn't go as well as I'd hoped.  I need to work on X, Y, and Z for next time,' you need two things. First, you need a "this time" and second, you need a "next time." 

This is where some folks start to ask that question about street fighting... am I suggesting folks go out and get into street fights in order to gain experience?  Answer is, no, of course not.  What I'm suggesting is that it may be impractical, in which case you should get used to the idea you will never be an expert street fighter.  Just not in the cards for you, just like I may never be an expert liquor distiller.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> am I suggesting folks go out and get into street fights in order to gain experience?  Answer is, no, of course not.


One can learn a lot through civilized challenge fight. The civilized challenge fight can be you challenge a

- boxer to throw 20 punches at you and see if you can block all punches.
- TKD guy to throw 20 kicks at you and see if you can block all kicks.
- Judo guy to take you down within 1 minute and see if you can remain standing.
- BJJ guy to mount on top of you within 1 minute and see if you can avoid tapping out.
- ...

Since you only play defense, most people would love to accept your challenge.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> I see your point.  I might disagree a bit, though.  Not with the impact.  Deadlines can really focus training and drive performance.  On that, we agree completely.
> 
> This may sound counterintuitive, but sometimes, it can be really productive to set seemingly unreasonable goals, even.  @drop bear's school does this with their new fighter program (I can't remember the details, but people with no training get a fight in like 2 months or something.)  I've heard them called many things, but in the corporate world, they're referred to as Big Hairy Audacious Goals (BHAGs).  Idea is, if you only ever deal with reasonable, achievable goals, you are imposing limits.  Sometimes, it's good to set a goal that is audacious and aspirational.  You might get there.  But even if you don't achieve that goal, you will probably find you've done more than you thought possible.
> 
> ...


I don’t think it’s possible to be an “expert“ street fighter. It’s never the same scenario twice. You don’t always know its coming either. Two of my uncles were money collectors, they did it all working for my dad. They had a 100% collection rate over 37 years.  They both were hurt several times over the years. I would say they were close to being experts but you just can’t be prepared for every circumstance. When it comes to training, what I am teaching takes most people quite a while to just move correctly.  Without basics there is no martial art. I don’t bother with any of that until they move like I want. I don’t care how long it takes. I don’t give goals like that. I don’t award rank. I think pushing people into a match or fight too early just makes for sloppy flailing. The guys that trained under our Sifu more than 10 years move like cats and punch far above their weight. I understand where you are coming from but I’m not selling any promises to anyone. Some people intuitively get what we are doing with training, most don’t, many quit because the training is difficult and very taxing physically. None of that changes the methodology. I don’t teach children, I don’t care if someone doesn’t excel because the few that do become very skilled. If it sounds like I’m an elitist pig, it’s because I am. I have seen a lot of schools train, I have never seen our method anywhere else. Many of us trained 3-4 hours a day 4-6 times per week for 2 years before any sparring or forms were even shown to us. Then when we would be invited to learn martial arts, we were conditioned and ready to take on the actual martial aspects of the training. This is the epitome of old school training. Most people are surprised to find out that I teach it exactly as it was taught to me. I do it that way because it works, though it can take a decade to become truly skilled. Sorry for the  long winded explanation but I think most folks are completely taken aback by the commitment that our system requires.


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## jks9199 (Feb 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The EE "digital logic design" is a self study course. You study one chapter, you then take the test. If you pass, you study next chapter. This is an example that if the information is recorded completely, self-study is possible.
> 
> Many university course just require you to read a book. At the end of that semester, you write a paper. The teacher then grades on your paper. This is an example that even if the information is not recorded completely, self-study is still possible.
> 
> IMO, to learn MA before the 21th century without a teacher could be difficult. But today, it's possible.


There are things that may be taught by merely communicating the information in writing.  History is an easy example... dates, events, names, etc. can all be written down.

There are things that cannot be meaningfully except by direct interaction between a student and teacher; it's just the way they are.  You can approximate motions, you can "get the idea" but without a teacher, you'll miss details.  Video, writing, all of that can help... but only help, not replace.  And, often, it takes a teacher who not only knows the material, but understands it, and understands how things can be changed, but still stay the same for different students...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> There are things that cannot be meaningfully except by direct interaction between a student and teacher; it's just the way they are.


You assume that 1 on 1 teacher and student relationship is always available. For many beginner classes, there are a lot of students in one class. Students can only watch what teacher shows them from a far distance. Class like this won't be any different from the online class with video and text book.

If a MA teacher is not willing to share his personal secret to his students, to study from a well recorded video/text can be better then to learn from that teacher in person.

This is why I believe the following information should all be recorded properly (in form, text, video, ...) and not just in a teacher's head.

- technique,
- principle,
- strategy,
- defense and counter,
- training method,
- ...

To assume the information should be stored inside a teacher's head is not the 21th century thinking.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> Maybe, depending on what your expectations are.  You can learn a system, whatever that system might be, and there could be a lot of value in that for you (depending on what you're looking for).
> 
> You know, I've always wanted to learn to distill liquor.  I've read several books on how to do it, and know the process.  I was pretty deep into home brewing back in the 90s, and so have a solid understanding of at least the first step, which is to make mash.  I can talk about it.  I continue to learn more ABOUT it.  But I'm no expert.  I've never done it.  And so, I am really careful when I talk about it with folks who do have some expertise, because I'm sure there are a lot of things I don't know that you can't learn intellectually.  The best I can do without a still is to be a very well prepared beginner, so that when I do it the first time I'm not starting from zero.  That's it... the best I can hope for.
> 
> ...


Ok aside from anything else, how long do I need to sit outside your gate to be accepted into your 101 steps to appreciating fine liquor class? I mean I just need to know what I have to do? To hell with this martial arts talk We can do that after liquor class!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> You can learn a system, whatever that system might be, and there could be a lot of value in that for you (depending on what you're looking for).


When you cross train, you may find something useful from other system that can enhance your primary system. Each system have many things in common, but it also have something unique.

For example, the WC Fu Shou is similar to the praying mantis (PM) Diao Shou. Whether you learn Fu Shou from the WC system, or you learn Diao Shou from the PM system, it won't make any difference.

But the WC Tan Shou is quite unique. You can use it as a drill to separate your opponent's arm away from his head. Since most WC guys don't use head lock much, this value may not be recognized by most WC guys. But for a wrestler, the WC Tan Shou can be used as a drill, a nice set up for the head lock.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok aside from anything else, how long do I need to sit outside your gate to be accepted into your 101 steps to appreciating fine liquor class? I mean I just need to know what I have to do? To hell with this martial arts talk We can do that after liquor class!


Booze and martial arts do not mix.  By that I mean booze and exercise.

Your EPOC is heavily alcohol dependent.  By that I mean if you have a single drink within an hour to 3 days after you work out, you're basically shutting off your long-term fat burning cycle.  This is the cause of many TMAers crying out in the night "why, god, can't I learn the real kung fu".

The answer is you eat and drink crap.  And if you want to be a kickboxer who eats crap all the time...there's no market for that, sorry.  Jerry Springer, maybe.









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## dvcochran (Feb 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Booze and martial arts do not mix.  By that I mean booze and exercise.
> 
> Your EPOC is heavily alcohol dependent.  By that I mean if you have a single drink within an hour to 3 days after you work out, you're basically shutting off your long-term fat burning cycle.  This is the cause of many TMAers crying out in the night "why, god, can't I learn the real kung fu".
> 
> ...


Good article.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Booze and martial arts do not mix.  By that I mean booze and exercise.
> 
> Your EPOC is heavily alcohol dependent.  By that I mean if you have a single drink within an hour to 3 days after you work out, you're basically shutting off your long-term fat burning cycle.  This is the cause of many TMAers crying out in the night "why, god, can't I learn the real kung fu".
> 
> ...


Moderation my friend. I eat very healthy. I don’t eat sweets. I only drink occasionally. i get a lot of excercise beyond training. I’m not new to this, I have 25 years in CMA. I’m 6’2” 210 lbs. not fat. I’m pretty sure I know a little bit of real gung fu. When I was younger I struggled to keep weight on with my workout schedule, I could barely stomach the amount of calories needed to maintain my body weight. in any case, a tasting and appreciation for fine liquor is a long way from being a drunk. In small amounts, alcohol may have some small health benefits. I don’t recommend drinking, but I’m not totally against it either.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Booze and martial arts do not mix.  By that I mean booze and exercise.
> 
> Your EPOC is heavily alcohol dependent.  By that I mean if you have a single drink within an hour to 3 days after you work out, you're basically shutting off your long-term fat burning cycle.  This is the cause of many TMAers crying out in the night "why, god, can't I learn the real kung fu".
> 
> ...


Hello oily, what CMA do you practice?  I am just always curious and looking for connections.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Moderation my friend. I eat very healthy. I don’t eat sweets. I only drink occasionally. i get a lot of excercise beyond training. I’m not new to this, I have 25 years in CMA. I’m 6’2” 210 lbs. not fat. I’m pretty sure I know a little bit of real gung fu. When I was younger I struggled to keep weight on with my workout schedule, I could barely stomach the amount of calories needed to maintain my body weight. in any case, a tasting and appreciation for fine liquor is a long way from being a drunk. In small amounts, alcohol may have some small health benefits. I don’t recommend drinking, but I’m not totally against it either.


Great.  I'm not talking about moderating alcohol use in your diet.

I'm talking about combining alcohol with training.  The science says "don't".  And the number of years you've been training CMA don't really matter at all.  I can name so many kung fu masters that succumbed to alcohol, opium, hernias...

If you drink any alcohol whatsoever within the same time as exercise, you lose benefits.  1-3 days.  There are no health benefits with alcohol and martial arts training.  It's science.  That's why they call them "empty calories", dude.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Hello oily, what CMA do you practice?  I am just always curious and looking for connections.


All of them.  In particular, Leung Kwan's Southern Shaolin Iron Wire.  He died from smoking too much opium, and by too much I mean more than zero.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Moderation my friend. I eat very healthy. I don’t eat sweets. I only drink occasionally. i get a lot of excercise beyond training. I’m not new to this, I have 25 years in CMA. I’m 6’2” 210 lbs. not fat. I’m pretty sure I know a little bit of real gung fu. When I was younger I struggled to keep weight on with my workout schedule, I could barely stomach the amount of calories needed to maintain my body weight. in any case, a tasting and appreciation for fine liquor is a long way from being a drunk. In small amounts, alcohol may have some small health benefits. I don’t recommend drinking, but I’m not totally against it either.


Tomorrow isn't promised. I worked with a guy who didn't eat meat and didn't eat sweets. I used to get mini talks about his diet. When I would tell him to enjoy cake. He died 20 years ago from cancer.  He should have had the cake.  

I always seek a balance. I'm out of balance now which is why I'm hitting the gym.  But I have be sure not to overdo it.  There's a cost to everything but sometimes the unhealthy stuff has other benefits.  Positive life experiences and stress reduction often comes from something that isn't classified as being healthy. Like you said, it's about moderation.


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## Steve (Feb 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Great.  I'm not talking about moderating alcohol use in your diet.
> 
> I'm talking about combining alcohol with training.  The science says "don't".  And the number of years you've been training CMA don't really matter at all.  I can name so many kung fu masters that succumbed to alcohol, opium, hernias...
> 
> If you drink any alcohol whatsoever within the same time as exercise, you lose benefits.  1-3 days.  There are no health benefits with alcohol and martial arts training.  It's science.  That's why they call them "empty calories", dude.


How do you feel about weed and training?  Asking for Joe Rogan and Eddie Bravo.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Tomorrow isn't promised. I worked with a guy who didn't eat meat and didn't eat sweets. I used to get mini talks about his diet. When I would tell him to enjoy cake. He died 20 years ago from cancer.  He should have had the cake.
> 
> I always seek a balance. I'm out of balance now which is why I'm hitting the gym.  But I have be sure not to overdo it.  There's a cost to everything but sometimes the unhealthy stuff has other benefits.  Positive life experiences and stress reduction often comes from something that isn't classified as being healthy. Like you said, it's about moderation.


I try to balance everything but I’m no saint. We are all just people doing our best to figure it out. No one gets out of here alive,


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> How do you feel about weed and training?  Asking for Joe Rogan and Eddie Bravo.


I wouldn’t be able to remember what I was doing. I can see how that would throw me completely off. I can also see how that might help someone relax in bjj and think of new ways into or out a position. It might also interfere with proprioceptive capability. I suppose a chronic user might adapt to that state of mind and thus be able to get around these obstacles. I’m not going to guinea pig this one, but I hope someone with experience could speak to this. Interesting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The EE "digital logic design" is a self study course. You study one chapter, you then take the test. If you pass, you study next chapter. This is an example that if the information is recorded completely, self-study is possible.
> 
> Many university course just require you to read a book. At the end of that semester, you write a paper. The teacher then grades on your paper. This is an example that even if the information is not recorded completely, self-study is still possible.
> 
> IMO, to learn MA before the 21th century without a teacher could be difficult. But today, it's possible.


Knowledge isn't the same as physical skills - there's greater transferability of knowledge via media. And some skills are more finite and limited in their variations, so more suitable to media and self-learning.

Learning a complex skill set without instruction is exceedingly difficult. A MA system goes beyond that, into physical principles that beginners don't recognize, misunderstand, etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You assume that 1 on 1 teacher and student relationship is always available. For many beginner classes, there are a lot of students in one class. Students can only watch what teacher shows them from a far distance. Class like this won't be any different from the online class with video and text book.
> 
> If a MA teacher is not willing to share his personal secret to his students, to study from a well recorded video/text can be better then to learn from that teacher in person.
> 
> ...


I think you use "should" way too much, John. Not everyone has the same goals, needs, or priorities.


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## dvcochran (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The EE "digital logic design" is a self study course. You study one chapter, you then take the test. If you pass, you study next chapter. This is an example that if the information is recorded completely, self-study is possible.
> 
> Many university course just require you to read a book. At the end of that semester, you write a paper. The teacher then grades on your paper. This is an example that even if the information is not recorded completely, self-study is still possible.
> 
> IMO, to learn MA before the 21th century without a teacher could be difficult. But today, it's possible.


I will try to make this as simple as possible. As simple as the learning method you describe. 
Blue is a color. You can learn to recognize it by using a book or color chart. If you are never shown anything else about the color blue, this is all you will ever know beyond accidental or self-discovery. 
In contrast, if someone shows you how to create different colors using blue, you base of knowledge has increased exponentially. 
Does that make sense? Especially compared to being Taught a MA vs. reading a book.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 3, 2022)

Steve said:


> How do you feel about weed and training?  Asking for Joe Rogan and Eddie Bravo.


Any kind of smoking can injure the lungs, and the lungs are kind of important to martial arts.

That includes smoking food.  Always turn away from the smoker before opening the hood, you don't want to breathe all those microscopic hickory cinders, trust me.

Both of those guys are famous, and I have a pet theory about famous people who hand out martial arts advice.  It's not pretty.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Any kind of smoking can injure the lungs, and the lungs are kind of important to martial arts.
> 
> That includes smoking food.  Always turn away from the smoker before opening the hood, you don't want to breathe all those microscopic hickory cinders, trust me.
> 
> Both of those guys are famous, and I have a pet theory about famous people who hand out martial arts advice.  It's not pretty.


What is the theory? Just curious. I don’t have an opinion.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Tomorrow isn't promised. I worked with a guy who didn't eat meat and didn't eat sweets. I used to get mini talks about his diet. When I would tell him to enjoy cake. He died 20 years ago from cancer.  He should have had the cake.
> 
> I always seek a balance. I'm out of balance now which is why I'm hitting the gym.  But I have be sure not to overdo it.  There's a cost to everything but sometimes the unhealthy stuff has other benefits.  Positive life experiences and stress reduction often comes from something that isn't classified as being healthy. Like you said, it's about moderation.


Check this out and tell me what you think. https://YouTube/Dp39GZ7yCrw


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think you use "should" way too much, John. Not everyone has the same goals, needs, or priorities.


If something that I believe in 100%, I won't say that I only believe in 95%. 

A: MA to me is as simple as "fist meet face" or "head meet ground".
B: Not everyone has the same goals, needs, or priorities.
A: I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for others.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You assume that 1 on 1 teacher and student relationship is always available. For many beginner classes, there are a lot of students in one class. Students can only watch what teacher shows them from a far distance. Class like this won't be any different from the online class with video and text book.
> 
> If a MA teacher is not willing to share his personal secret to his students, to study from a well recorded video/text can be better then to learn from that teacher in person.
> 
> ...


Not certain what your exposure has been but that is far from accurate.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 3, 2022)

T


Wing Woo Gar said:


> Check this out and tell me what you think. https://YouTube/Dp39GZ7yCrw


The link doesn't show


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If something that I believe in 100%, I won't say that I only believe in 95%.
> 
> A: MA to me is as simple as "fist meet face" or "head meet ground".
> B: Not everyone has the same goals, needs, or priorities.
> A: I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for others.


When you say “should”, it implies others should share your priorities.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 3, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> it implies others should share your priorities.


ha ha ha.  We (everyone in martialtalk) do that even if we don't use "should" lol.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> Not certain what your exposure has been but that is far from accurate.


I had in my high school kung Fu class with 50 students in the class.

I also invited my Chinese wrestling teacher to live in my house so I can learn from him in person. I do know that not everybody has 1-on-1 opportunity to learn MA.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> When you say “should”, it implies others should share your priorities.


When you use the word "should", as long as you haven't said, "You are wrong.",  it won't bother me a bit.

I say what I believe and people also say what they believe. We don't have to be so sensitive about this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you use the word "should", as long as you haven't said, "You are wrong.",  it won't bother me a bit.
> 
> I say what I believe and people also say what they believe. We don't have to be so sensitive about this.


I've just told you what I believe.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I've just told you what I believe.


In the following discussion, does B have a point? (Please notice that A uses "one" and not "you".)

A: If one wants to lean how to fight, he has to fight.
B: You should not shove your opinion into my throat.


----------



## Steve (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following discussion, does B have a point? (Please notice that A uses "one" and not "you".)
> 
> A: If one wants to lean how to fight, he has to fight.
> B: You should not shove your opinion into my throat.


Well that’s kind of how it goes.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> T
> 
> The link doesn't show


Sorry. Try entering James Wing Woo Kung Fu Academy. It’s from 1958. Has some forms from his students Back then. Rick Flores and Rich Montgomery among others.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> T
> 
> The link doesn't show


Posted this in the other thread, but here's a corrected version of the link.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Check this out and tell me what you think. https://YouTube/Dp39GZ7yCrw


I haven't watched off of it. stopped at the staff part.  Holy cow.  He's got a strong wrist and grip.  It doesn't look exciting but it takes a lot of strength to hold that staff like that.  And it wasn't some short light weight staff that they used in extreme martial arts performances.  It's one of those things that's not impressive to people until try it and realize the truth from first hand experiences.

This is one of the reason why I wish people will would train martial arts as a functional system.  At the very least they would get more appreciation for the system..  Thanks for sharing that video.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 3, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Posted this in the other thread, but here's a corrected version of the link.


Thanks.  I appreciated it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2022)

I have asked the following question for more than 30 years now. Today, I still have not obtained any answer yet.

Someone said that long fist kick and Taiji kick are different. What's the difference?  Also if you train both long fist and Taiji, when you stand in front of a heavy bag, will you do long fist kick, or will you do Taiji kick?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks.  I appreciated it.


There are a bunch of black and white films from Chinese New Year 1959 demonstration in Los Angeles Chinatown. They are from the same YouTube publisher. Sifu Eduardo Regalado Barrazza of Guadalajar, who is a student of James Wing Woo.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have asked the following question for more than 30 years now. Today, I still have not obtained any answer yet.
> 
> Someone said that long fist kick and Taiji kick are different. What's the difference?  Also if you train both long fist and Taiji, when you stand in front of a heavy bag, will you do long fist kick, or will you do Taiji kick?


Unfortunately I only know one Taiji kick and it's a front kick like the one I use in Jow Ga.  No difference in terms of mechanics.  The only difference is in the forms


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Unfortunately I only know one Taiji kick and it's a front kick like the one I use in Jow Ga.  No difference in terms of mechanics.  The only difference is in the forms


I don’t know a kick from a kick in that respect. I practice both Yang long form Tai Chi Chuan and Southern Wushu Gung Fu. No difference. other side of the same coin as I see it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Unfortunately I only know one Taiji kick and it's a front kick like the one I use in Jow Ga.  No difference in terms of mechanics.  The only difference is in the forms


Exactly.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have asked the following question for more than 30 years now. Today, I still have not obtained any answer yet.
> 
> Someone said that long fist kick and Taiji kick are different. What's the difference?  Also if you train both long fist and Taiji, when you stand in front of a heavy bag, will you do long fist kick, or will you do Taiji kick?


No difference


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> No difference


In the following discussion, I understand each and every word that B is saying. But I don't understand the meaning of his whole sentence. Can someone help me on this?

A: What's the difference between long fist kick and Taiji kick?
B: It may be no different in your training. But it's different in my training. Difference of emphasis, difference of training methods.
A: ???


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I haven't watched off of it. stopped at the staff part.  Holy cow.  He's got a strong wrist and grip.  It doesn't look exciting but it takes a lot of strength to hold that staff like that.  And it wasn't some short light weight staff that they used in extreme martial arts performances.  It's one of those things that's not impressive to people until try it and realize the truth from first hand experiences.
> 
> This is one of the reason why I wish people will would train martial arts as a functional system.  At the very least they would get more appreciation for the system..  Thanks for sharing that video.


Are you talking about the part from around 8 to 8.5 minutes in? I was impressed throughout, but that absolutely requires a lot more strength than people would give credit for just watching without holding one of those.

@Wing Woo Gar if I read right in the other thread, that was your sifu correct? Very impressive, you are lucky to have trained under him. At 10:30-10:35 he also has a conditioning drill built into that 2-person form that is incredibly effective, but I've only ever seen done in my first school as a kid (and the later instructors when I went back to that school after college did not know it). Until just now, wasn't entirely sure if I made it up in my head.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What is the theory? Just curious. I don’t have an opinion.


They all have a habit of dying early.   Wing Chun, Hung Ga, Jeet Kune Do.

Comparing them to the Tai Chi dudes, I'm of the mind those guys got it right.  In the end.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> They all have a habit of dying early.   Wing Chun, Hung Ga, Jeet Kune Do.
> 
> Comparing them to the Tai Chi dudes, I'm of the mind those guys got it right.  In the end.


The difference is that there is a sense of toughness that comes with Wing Chun, Hung Ga, and Jeet Kune Do.   It doesn't only happen in martial arts but also in other fighting systems.  People think that just because they are in great shape that nothing can kill them.  So instead of going to the doctor when they should, they try to "fighting it out"with the illness.

I 've come across a lot of "tough guys" in my life who say "I'm going to sweat out this cold or fever"  Instead of going to the doctor.  Tons of these same guys were killed by Covid as well.  A weaker person would be driving to the doctor as soon as possible.  Women live longer for the same reason.  If they get sick then they want to get treatment right away. (In general).  Men are knuckles heads and think that it's something they can beat.  The more fit a person is, the more of a knuckle head they will be.

I count myself in that group sometimes.  It's not a good way to be and I hope I'll do better about taking care of myself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following discussion, does B have a point? (Please notice that A uses "one" and not "you".)
> 
> A: If one wants to lean how to fight, he has to fight.
> B: You should not shove your opinion into my throat.


That's fine, because it states the condition, rather than assuming it. If A says "Anyone who wants to study a MA should _______", he's probably stating a preference that doesn't apply to a significant number of people. There are exceptions ("Anyone who wants to study a MA should visit more than one school before deciding" is okay, because that'd apply to pretty much anyone).


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following discussion, I understand each and every word that B is saying. But I don't understand the meaning of his whole sentence. Can someone help me on this?
> 
> A: What's the difference between long fist kick and Taiji kick?
> B: It may be no different in your training. But it's different in my training. Difference of emphasis, difference of training methods.
> A: ???


A difference of training methods, to me, doesn't at all imply a difference in the kick, itself. And a difference in emphasis seems like just nuance. If the base mechanics are the same, but one uses a bit more hip and the other a bit more knee (I don't even know what that would mean - just making a point), they're the same kick, performed a bit differently. And that small difference is probably more individual-dependent than style-dependent.


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## dvcochran (Feb 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The EE "digital logic design" is a self study course. You study one chapter, you then take the test. If you pass, you study next chapter. This is an example that if the information is recorded completely, self-study is possible.
> 
> Many university course just require you to read a book. At the end of that semester, you write a paper. The teacher then grades on your paper. This is an example that even if the information is not recorded completely, self-study is still possible.
> 
> IMO, to learn MA before the 21th century without a teacher could be difficult. But today, it's possible.


I have had to take that class twice during the course of my degree seeking 'education'. The first time it did not have lab class, the second time it did. Granted, I was older and already had a good amount of experience, but I was bored to tears during the first class. I also remember watching how most kids responded when a lab class was included. It was pretty cool as you could really see the light come on for them. 

I have taught similar classes at our local vocation school (college of applied science) several times and I always integrate the hands on/applied while going through the book learning. Then circle back to each topic. 

The worst thing that can happen is for a person who works 100% in the physical present to get rooted and stuck in a bunch of theory that the never really understood in the first place. Happens all the time to fresh college graduates. 

Although somewhat reversed, I fully believe this is just as true in the martial arts. Learning the how is important but a good bit futile if a person never learns the why. 
And to be clear, learning the how takes Much longer than people think.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 4, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Are you talking about the part from around 8 to 8.5 minutes in? I was impressed throughout, but that absolutely requires a lot more strength than people would give credit for just watching without holding one of those.
> 
> @Wing Woo Gar if I read right in the other thread, that was your sifu correct? Very impressive, you are lucky to have trained under him. At 10:30-10:35 he also has a conditioning drill built into that 2-person form that is incredibly effective, but I've only ever seen done in my first school as a kid (and the later instructors when I went back to that school after college did not know it). Until just now, wasn't entirely sure if I made it up in my head.


Those guys are my Sigung’s students. My Sifu was one of their contemporaries. James Wing Woo is my Sigung. Paul Gale was my Sifu. I was trained by both. The guys in the video were Rick Flores and Rich Montgomery.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> They all have a habit of dying early.   Wing Chun, Hung Ga, Jeet Kune Do.
> 
> Comparing them to the Tai Chi dudes, I'm of the mind those guys got it right.  In the end.


What if someone does both equally?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 4, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Are you talking about the part from around 8 to 8.5 minutes in? I was impressed throughout, but that absolutely requires a lot more strength than people would give credit for just watching without holding one of those.
> 
> @Wing Woo Gar if I read right in the other thread, that was your sifu correct? Very impressive, you are lucky to have trained under him. At 10:30-10:35 he also has a conditioning drill built into that 2-person form that is incredibly effective, but I've only ever seen done in my first school as a kid (and the later instructors when I went back to that school after college did not know it). Until just now, wasn't entirely sure if I made it up in my head.


There are a lot of videos of these guys. Some of the forms they are doing are pretty rare these days. I will attempt posting some more.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 4, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> There are a lot of videos of these guys. Some of the forms they are doing are pretty rare these days. I will attempt posting some more.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 4, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Are you talking about the part from around 8 to 8.5 minutes in? I was impressed throughout, but that absolutely requires a lot more strength than people would give credit for just watching without holding one of those.
> 
> @Wing Woo Gar if I read right in the other thread, that was your sifu correct? Very impressive, you are lucky to have trained under him. At 10:30-10:35 he also has a conditioning drill built into that 2-person form that is incredibly effective, but I've only ever seen done in my first school as a kid (and the later instructors when I went back to that school after college did not know it). Until just now, wasn't entirely sure if I made it up in my head.


Hers another one


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 4, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Are you talking about the part from around 8 to 8.5 minutes in? I was impressed throughout, but that absolutely requires a lot more strength than people would give credit for just watching without holding one of those.
> 
> @Wing Woo Gar if I read right in the other thread, that was your sifu correct? Very impressive, you are lucky to have trained under him. At 10:30-10:35 he also has a conditioning drill built into that 2-person form that is incredibly effective, but I've only ever seen done in my first school as a kid (and the later instructors when I went back to that school after college did not know it). Until just now, wasn't entirely sure if I made it up in my head.


Another.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The difference is that there is a sense of toughness that comes with Wing Chun, Hung Ga, and Jeet Kune Do.   It doesn't only happen in martial arts but also in other fighting systems.  People think that just because they are in great shape that nothing can kill them.  So instead of going to the doctor when they should, they try to "fighting it out"with the illness.
> 
> I 've come across a lot of "tough guys" in my life who say "I'm going to sweat out this cold or fever"  Instead of going to the doctor.  Tons of these same guys were killed by Covid as well.  A weaker person would be driving to the doctor as soon as possible.  Women live longer for the same reason.  If they get sick then they want to get treatment right away. (In general).  Men are knuckles heads and think that it's something they can beat.  The more fit a person is, the more of a knuckle head they will be.
> 
> I count myself in that group sometimes.  It's not a good way to be and I hope I'll do better about taking care of myself.


There's a sad photo out there of such a guy, he was totally svelte before he caught COVID, then he lost almost all his muscle mass.  I won't even try to find it or post it, it's that sad.

Sad panda.  But at least he's still alive.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 4, 2022)

@Wing Woo Gar interesting videos you posted.  As a ex-Tracy lineage kenpo guy, I saw snippets of things that looked like it could have been original source material for the Parker downstream kenpo.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There's a sad photo out there of such a guy, he was totally svelte before he caught COVID, then he lost almost all his muscle mass.  I won't even try to find it or post it, it's that sad.
> 
> Sad panda.  But at least he's still alive.


The sad part is that you can google bodybuilder covid-19 and see more than one person who looked at being in shape as a cure all.  It wasn't until I started looking at things that way that I understood why some of the Martial Arts legends died young.  People who do "Super feats" sometimes forget that they are just normal people like the rest of us.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 4, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> @Wing Woo Gar interesting videos you posted.  As a ex-Tracy lineage kenpo guy, I saw snippets of things that looked like it could have been original source material for the Parker downstream kenpo.


You couldn’t be more correct.


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## drop bear (Feb 4, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What if someone does both equally?


By the way. Isn’t Dan insanto about a thousand years old?


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## dvcochran (Feb 4, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> Not certain what your exposure has been but





drop bear said:


> By the way. Isn’t Dan insanto about a thousand years old?


Pretty close. He is 85.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 4, 2022)

drop bear said:


> By the way. Isn’t Dan insanto about a thousand years old?


I’m not sure. What’s the connection? I’m in no way connected to him that I’m aware of. Im neither Wing Chun nor JKD.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The sad part is that you can google bodybuilder covid-19 and see more than one person who looked at being in shape as a cure all.  It wasn't until I started looking at things that way that I understood why some of the Martial Arts legends died young.  People who do "Super feats" sometimes forget that they are just normal people like the rest of us.


Gordon Liu's stroke wasn't even from all his hard training.

He fell while performing with his band, and hit his head.


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## jergar (Feb 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Still nobody has explained how a non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like.
> 
> Will you call these guys fight like kickboxing just because they throw
> 
> ...


Hi, I guess it would be on the delivery of said kicks, strikes etc. I mean I throw a hook  punch and a round house kick with the same body mechanics as a kick boxer or any other martial art for that matter.The only difference is how you get there .


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 16, 2022)

jergar said:


> Hi, I guess it would be on the delivery of said kicks, strikes etc. I mean I throw a hook  punch and a round house kick with the same body mechanics as a kick boxer or any other martial art for that matter. The only difference is how you get there .


Do you know any video that the winner doesn't fight like a kickboxer?

It will be nice to see a video that someone doesn't fight like a kickboxer (when kick and punch are allowed), so we can have some meaningful discussion.


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you know any video that the winner doesn't fight like a kickboxer?
> 
> It will be nice to see a video that someone doesn't fight like a kickboxer (when kick and punch are allowed), so we can have some meaningful discussion.



It depends on how fine a definition of not a kickboxer and how loose a definition of kickboxer you want to go.

You have guys like MVP who are pretty unorthodox.






Vs say John Wayne Parramatta who is very orthodox.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It depends on how fine a definition of not a kickboxer and how loose a definition of kickboxer you want to go.


What's your definition of "not a kickboxer"? Does this match look like kickboxing to you?


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your definition of "not a kickboxer"? Does this match look like kickboxing to you?



Nope. Looks like garbage.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your definition of "not a kickboxer"? Does this match look like kickboxing to you?


This match looks to me like an example of the kind of sparring that has minimal benefit to building skills.  Very sloppy.  I don’t recommend it.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Nope. Looks like garbage.


Lol  I'll have to make sure not to ask you what my sparring looks like.  Haha.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> This match looks to me like an example of the kind of sparring that has minimal benefit to building skills.  Very sloppy.  I don’t recommend it.


He should be fine once he gets rid of that panic striking.  The other guy wasn't that good either.  But that's what learning is about.  I like that both were committed to what they train.  They must embrace the mistakes they make and learn from them


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> This match looks to me like an example of the kind of sparring that has minimal benefit to building skills.  Very sloppy.  I don’t recommend it.


In the other clip, he executed his plan "groin kick, face punch" combo 5 times. 3 other times after his groin kick, the distance was too far for his face punch.

The footwork that he moves his back foot next to his leading foot and then kick out his leading foot is the skill that he tried to develop. It's very basic and nothing fancy.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol  I'll have to make sure not to ask you what my sparring looks like.  Haha.


Comparing professional to amateur sport combat is kind of a waste of time, like judging professional wrestling for technical quality.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> This match looks to me like an example of the kind of sparring that has minimal benefit to building skills.  Very sloppy.  I don’t recommend it.


I agree. 

They could also at least have chosen a nicer hotel, and gotten a couple sponsors to ad the place up.  Low budget.


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol  I'll have to make sure not to ask you what my sparring looks like.  Haha.


----------



## Anarax (Feb 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No. Because Steven Thompson.
> 
> 
> The issue you mostly have is anyone who is any good, fights like a kickboxer. So to get trained by someone who has a vague clue what he is on about you nearly always need to turn to kickboxing.
> ...


Well said. One of the interesting things about Kickboxing is it's evolving and changing. It being a full contact sport practiced by professionals, you get to see it executed at the highest levels. Glory Kickboxing puts on phenomenal fights.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


>


I'm amazed how many siblings have that same logic lol.  I used to do that to my younger brother.  I have no idea how my mother didn't kill us both  lol.  We also did the "Mom he's on my side" when we were in the car.  You know those nature movies where the baby bird kills it's sibling, that was us. lol.  But now everything is the opposite.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 21, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> He should be fine once he gets rid of that panic striking.  The other guy wasn't that good either.  But that's what learning is about.  I like that both were committed to what they train.  They must embrace the mistakes they make and learn from them


That video…ugh.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 21, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That video…ugh.


lol.  was it that bad lol.

This is my go to for kung fu.  This event happens every and it shows people using what they train.  Some may say that it looks like kickboxing, but not to me. It doesn't even move like kickboxing.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 21, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.  was it that bad lol.


If you just edit the best part of a fight, of course the fight can look good.

I'm more interested in a fighter who has a plan and follows it. My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin told me that he wrote his plan on his SC jacket. This way he could always referenced to his plan during the match.

In the following clip, he made his combo worked 3 times:

1. 0.00 - 0.03
2. 0.09 - 0.15
3. 1.08 - 1.13

He also tried at 0.51 and failed. It proofed that he had a plan and he followed it.

In real fight, you only have to make your combo work once.






This old man (my teacher's young brother) had a plan in wrestling that he followed through all his life. His plan was either used his left leg to bite on his opponent's leading leg, or pull his opponent into him. He taught me to stick to my plan and never change it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 21, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you just edit the best part of a fight, of course the fight can look good.
> 
> I'm more interested in a fighter who has a plan and follows it. My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin told me that he wrote his plan on his SC jacket. This way he could always referenced to his plan during the match.
> 
> ...


I have more than one plan so I can apply the correct plan to the type of fighter that is in front of me.  I couldn't imagine doing one type of plan unless no one could stop it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.  was it that bad lol.
> 
> This is my go to for kung fu.  This event happens every and it shows people using what they train.  Some may say that it looks like kickboxing, but not to me. It doesn't even move like kickboxing.


Much better.


----------



## Steve (Feb 22, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.  was it that bad lol.
> 
> This is my go to for kung fu.  This event happens every and it shows people using what they train.  Some may say that it looks like kickboxing, but not to me. It doesn't even move like kickboxing.


Looks a lot like Sanda or San Shou to me.  I love it, as long as folks who don't compete and apply their skills understand that they probably can't do that, in the same way a person who does Tae Bo probably can't do what a kickboxer does. 

Causes a lot of problems, though, when folks who train in styles that are too cool to apply their skills look at these dudes as some kind of validation of their technique and training model.  The "that guy uses [insert my TMA style} in MMA (or some other competitive application), so the good news is that I can definitely fight"


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Steve said:


> Looks a lot like Sanda or San Shou to me.  I love it, as long as folks who don't compete and apply their skills understand that they probably can't do that, in the same way a person who does Tae Bo probably can't do what a kickboxer does.
> 
> Causes a lot of problems, though, when folks who train in styles that are too cool to apply their skills look at these dudes as some kind of validation of their technique and training model.  The "that guy uses [insert my TMA style} in MMA (or some other competitive application), so the good news is that I can definitely fight"


Wait which ones are too cool? I hear this type of stuff a lot from you Steve. I’m never quite sure about where this comes from or what you mean exactly. Are you saying that I can’t do what these guys do because I don’t compete? I’m confused, straighten me out.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 22, 2022)

Steve said:


> Looks a lot like Sanda or San Shou to me.  I love it, as long as folks who don't compete and apply their skills understand that they probably can't do that, in the same way a person who does Tae Bo probably can't do what a kickboxer does.
> 
> Causes a lot of problems, though, when folks who train in styles that are too cool to apply their skills look at these dudes as some kind of validation of their technique and training model.  The "that guy uses [insert my TMA style} in MMA (or some other competitive application), so the good news is that I can definitely fight"



I'm not sure I follow.... are you saying Sanda/sanshou is for show only? and not useful in a real fight? (I'm not upset, just wondering what you mean)

Sanda is Sanshuo and Cung Lei was a Sanda fighter and a rather good one. Also there are different versions of Sanda/Sanshou. Military/Police, Sport and there is another set occasionally referred to as civilian. I trained the Police version for a bit, and I can tell you, it is as serious as a heart attack in application. As my teacher said, Sanda is not the best martial art or the hardest or the most impressive, it is just a quick way to learn how to hurt someone very badly


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wait which ones are too cool? I hear this type of stuff a lot from you Steve. I’m never quite sure about where this comes from or what you mean exactly. Are you saying that I can’t do what these guys do because I don’t compete? I’m confused, straighten me out.


Good question.  We have to be kind of careful.  My intention isn't to be vague, but fraudbusting is frowned up.  So, I end up sounding a little passive aggressive.  

I'm talking about folks who say things like, "We don't train to fight. We train for self defense," who will also talk about how they never fight (and in some cases, have NEVER fought).  These guys will also often describe their own training as being "effective" on the street, and will opine about what works and doesn't work in a "real fight."  

To be clear, it's not style specific.  It's training specific, though some styles definitely embrace a lack of application as a feature and not a bug.  This is a great example of how, if you train for some application, your style can work great. But this is true in the converse, as well.  It's the application that makes it work, not the style.  So, if you train white crane, wing chun, ninjutsu, or aikido and apply the skills, the PEOPLE who train in those styles will learn to apply the skills.  And the inverse, if you train in boxing, MMA, BJJ, wrestling, or kickboxing, and remove the application, it will pretty quickly devolve into something that barely resembles "effective".


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not sure I follow.... are you saying Sanda/sanshou is for show only? and not useful in a real fight? (I'm not upset, just wondering what you mean)
> 
> Sanda is Sanshuo and Cung Lei was a Sanda fighter and a rather good one. Also there are different versions of Sanda/Sanshou. Military/Police, Sport and there is another set occasionally referred to as civilian. I trained the Police version for a bit, and I can tell you, it is as serious as a heart attack in application. As my teacher said, Sanda is not the best martial art or the hardest or the most impressive, it is just a quick way to learn how to hurt someone very badly


Just the opposite.  I love sanda.  It's awesome.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 22, 2022)

Steve said:


> Just the opposite.  I love sanda.  It's awesome.



OK, thanks


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Steve said:


> Good question.  We have to be kind of careful.  My intention isn't to be vague, but fraudbusting is frowned up.  So, I end up sounding a little passive aggressive.
> 
> I'm talking about folks who say things like, "We don't train to fight. We train for self defense," who will also talk about how they never fight (and in some cases, have NEVER fought).  These guys will also often describe their own training as being "effective" on the street, and will opine about what works and doesn't work in a "real fight."
> 
> To be clear, it's not style specific.  It's training specific, though some styles definitely embrace a lack of application as a feature and not a bug.  This is a great example of how, if you train for some application, your style can work great. But this is true in the converse, as well.  It's the application that makes it work, not the style.  So, if you train white crane, wing chun, ninjutsu, or aikido and apply the skills, the PEOPLE who train in those styles will learn to apply the skills.  And the inverse, if you train in boxing, MMA, BJJ, wrestling, or kickboxing, and remove the application, it will pretty quickly devolve into something that barely resembles "effective".


I think I understand you. Thanks for the answer. I would add that people who think that sparring or competition is the same as a real fight are also deluding themselves in the same way you describe the self defenders self delusion. One thing is not the other.


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I think I understand you. Thanks for the answer. I would add that people who think that sparring or competition is the same as a real fight are also deluding themselves in the same way you describe the self defenders self delusion. One thing is not the other.


I agree with that, and if you internalize that idea, then you will begin to think about the entire topic in terms of transfer of skills.  Edit:  General "you" not specifically you.

Step one is to develop functional expertise in some context.

Step two is to transfer those skills to a new context.  The more similar these contexts are, the more successful you will be at the very beginning, and the flatter your learning curve.

An example I've used outside of fighting is bladesmithing that I think highlights the issue pretty well.  If you have two guys, one (like me) who likes to read about it, watches Forged in Fire, and enjoys it on an academic level... and another guy who has never forged a knife before, but has years of experience making a living as a blacksmith, crafting tools from steel and iron.  Neither of us has ever made a blade, and it could be argued that both of us have SOME relevant experience.  I know some of the jargon. I can explain the process academically.  I've even seen a lot of the troubleshooting that they do when they make common mistakes.  I can talk ABOUT it.  But if you give me and that other guy tools and a forge and say, "You have one chance to make me a functional knife.  And if you don't, we will beat you to within an inch of your life," who do you think has the best odds of success?

I would say in the analogy above, I am like a TMA stylist (in the shorthand usage of the term), and the other guy is a competition/sports stylist.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 22, 2022)

Steve said:


> Looks a lot like Sanda or San Shou to me.  I love it, as long as folks who don't compete and apply their skills understand that they probably can't do that, in the same way a person who does Tae Bo probably can't do what a kickboxer does.
> 
> Causes a lot of problems, though, when folks who train in styles that are too cool to apply their skills look at these dudes as some kind of validation of their technique and training model.  The "that guy uses [insert my TMA style} in MMA (or some other competitive application), so the good news is that I can definitely fight"



The USKFS is an open invitation, all styles tournament.  Wing Chun schools show up, and Hung Ga schools.  Mantis schools,  Muay Thai, MMA schools show up. 

That particular video montage is San Shou on Lei Tai (raised platform), a particularly risk-prone competition format.  It's so dangerous that in Taiwan, they often do these types of tournaments on floating platforms over water, rather than flooring.  Throws are allowed so getting thrown off the platform can be life-changing event.


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The USKFS is an open invitation, all styles tournament.  Wing Chun schools show up, and Hung Ga schools.  Mantis schools,  Muay Thai, MMA schools show up.
> 
> That particular video montage is San Shou on Lei Tai (raised platform), a particularly risk-prone competition format.  It's so dangerous that in Taiwan, they often do these types of tournaments on floating platforms over water, rather than flooring.  Throws are allowed so getting thrown off the platform can be life-changing event.


Are there any videos of stylists from the other styles?  I think that would be fun to watch.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I would add that people who think that sparring or competition is the same as a real fight are also deluding themselves in the same way you describe the self defenders self delusion. One thing is not the other.


Sparring and competition is the path that can help you to reach to your real fight goal.

If you have knocked/taken many people down in the ring, or on the mat, the chance that you can repeat your success in real fight will be high.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 22, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have more than one plan so I can apply the correct plan to the type of fighter that is in front of me.  I couldn't imagine doing one type of plan unless no one could stop it.


If you have executed your plan successful, you will accumulate more experience in that area. You will be more familiar with that plan than your opponent may know how to counter it.

To have a plan can solve the problem that you move in throw a punch and don't know what to do afterward. For example, if you enter with a groin kick, you then follow with jab-cross-hook-uppercut, you can keep your opponent busy for a while.

Do you think this guy fight like kickboxing?


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 22, 2022)

Steve said:


> Are there any videos of stylists from the other styles?  I think that would be fun to watch.


The video Jow Ga posted has all the styles.

Those aren't just kung fu fighters in that video compilation, they're all mixed in together in formal weight classes, in a kung fu tournament format that goes back about 100 years.

It's a really funny event.  Muay Thai fighters show up and get clobbered by San Shou people.  Kung fu people get clobbered by MMA guys.  And then MMA guys who know kung fu basically write their own ticket into the pro leagues.  The US Kuoshu team gets selected from this tournament and they go on to fight overseas.  Fortune and glory.

The overall tournament includes a lot more than the San Shou tournament, there are medals for forms, weapons, even light sparring ( the martial arts equivalent of a participation trophy).  Something for everyone.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Steve said:


> I agree with that, and if you internalize that idea, then you will begin to think about the entire topic in terms of transfer of skills.  Edit:  General "you" not specifically you.
> 
> Step one is to develop functional expertise in some context.
> 
> ...


Hmm. I get the analogy, but I’m not sure about your conclusion. Where is the third one? I mean, I’m not the sports competition guy, I’m not the untried untested TMA guy either. I’m somebody else because I’ve had lots of real fights (made knives that functioned). My CMA is not pure TMA because it has elements of western boxing etc. ( why would that be there unless Sifu Woo found out that it works) Sifu Woo was also a golden gloves boxer in the navy, and a close friend of Gene Lebell.  I trained JJJ and boxing as a kid. I guess that technically makes me MMA? I don’t know, I’m not sure any of these labels make sense to me


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sparring and competition is the path that can help you to reach to your real fight goal.
> 
> If you have knocked/taken many people down in the ring, or on the mat, the chance that you can repeat your success in real fight will be high.


Ok is the obverse also true? That because I have knocked people down on the street that that somehow will transfer to the ring? I’m not sure about that. In any case I’m over 50 and not looking to prove anything to anyone so it’s moot.


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Hmm. I get the analogy, but I’m not sure about your conclusion. Where is the third one? I mean, I’m not the sports competition guy, I’m not the untried untested TMA guy either. I’m somebody else because I’ve had lots of real fights (made knives that functioned). My CMA is not pure TMA because it has elements of western boxing etc. ( why would that be there unless Sifu Woo found out that it works) Sifu Woo was also a golden gloves boxer in the navy, and a close friend of Gene Lebell.  I trained JJJ and boxing as a kid. I guess that technically makes me MMA? I don’t know, I’m not sure any of these labels make sense to me


Every kind of application offers different benefits.  There are many options.  Experience is a spectrum.  That's missing the point, though, which is that there is a material, functional difference between academic experience and practical experience.  Knowing about vs knowing how.

That said, to your point, the more disparate the experience and skills you have from the context into which you are being asked to perform, the lower your chances of succeeding... particularly on the first try. 

It works in reverse, too.  If you have a lot of experience in fights, but have never competed, and someone says, "Hey @Wing Woo Gar, you need to enter this competition and fight under this ruleset.  You get no additional training, and have to succeed in your first match against a random opponent.  Would you win?  Maybe.  Depends... but the more similar your actual experience is to the competition, the better prepared you will be.

The big advantage that sport has over other contexts is you have some control over the stakes.  Starting with street fights can lead to dire results.  Starting with competition allows you to build a skillset in a more controlled, safer manner, while still building to functional skill.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Much better.


yep.  movement is cleaner. I wanted to compete in it but by the time I figured out how to use Jow Ga, I was too old.  Which is life.  I had 20+ year gap between Jow Ga schools.  Not even sure, that I would have been able to learn how to use it even then.  It took 1 year of weekly 2 hour sparring classes for me to work it all out.  That didn't happen until I became an instructor and had some input on what was taught at the school.   My son on the other may have a shot.   If he keeps up his training then he'll be ready by 30.  10 years of the training that we are doing now should be more than enough for that level of competition, it should be enough for amateur fights.  But that's all if he's interested in things like that.

Right now, he just likes kung fu and working out.  Not sure why he has a sudden interest in it as we don't talk kung fu or weight lifting.  So maybe one of his friends is doing it.  Maybe he finally has a rival that drives him.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wait which ones are too cool? I hear this type of stuff a lot from you Steve. I’m never quite sure about where this comes from or what you mean exactly. Are you saying that I can’t do what these guys do because I don’t compete? I’m confused, straighten me out.



In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 22, 2022)

drop bear said:


> In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 22, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have executed your plan successful, you will accumulate more experience in that area. You will be more familiar with that plan than your opponent may know how to counter it.
> 
> To have a plan can solve the problem that you move in throw a punch and don't know what to do afterward. For example, if you enter with a groin kick, you then follow with jab-cross-hook-uppercut, you can keep your opponent busy for a while.
> 
> Do you think this guy fight like kickboxing?


Nope that's not kick boxing.  I can see some techniques that are used in kickboxing but what they are doing isn't kickboxing but all of that changes on the grappling begins.  When the hand touches the mat the round is reset.  Certain throws shown in that video would be illegal in kick boxing.   I think the more exposure that people have to martial arts, the easier it becomes to recognizes what is what.  My neighbors don't know anything about martial arts so for years they still think I train Karate even though I tell them that I train Kung Fu.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

drop bear said:


> In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.


There is a lot of space in between there. I’m not John Jones and I’m not doing any backyard MA either. I teach three times a week and train four times a week. I’ve been doing my current martial art for 25 years. I had boxing and JJJ as a kid prior to Wing Woo Gar. Both my Sigung and my Sifu had lots of ”outdoor experience” and I do too. So you tell me, in your estimation where that puts me?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

You may also notice, I was asking Steve. Please do weigh in here, however, I would appreciate answering the question posed.


drop bear said:


> In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 22, 2022)

drop bear said:


> In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.


I don't need to be John Jones to kick the mess out of someone's leg, shin, or knee with an oblique kick (shadowless kick).


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Steve said:


> Every kind of application offers different benefits.  There are many options.  Experience is a spectrum.  That's missing the point, though, which is that there is a material, functional difference between academic experience and practical experience.  Knowing about vs knowing how.
> 
> That said, to your point, the more disparate the experience and skills you have from the context into which you are being asked to perform, the lower your chances of succeeding... particularly on the first try.
> 
> ...


Oh I’m not suggesting that street fighting is a good way to learn, not at all. It is however, where most of my actual experience came from. To answer your point, I really don’t know how I would perform in a rules based competition. I would say that it’s likely I would be a DQ because I don’t train  for a sport. I am hardwired to win at any cost when fighting for real. I have no doubts or delusions about what happens when it’s real. Let me ask you, how much street violence experience you have? I’m not being facetious, I am genuinely curious.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 22, 2022)

There's always a cloud about what's possible by comparing it to MMA and I think people short change themselves when they view techniques from that perspective.  

Are my fighting skills Professional MMA quality?  I guess it doesn't matter in the reality of the things as most people aren't getting attacked on the streets by MMA fighters.  So from that perspective it's not relevant if I'm not fighting a professional MMA fighter.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

drop bear said:


> In a nutshell. Yes. If you are in your back yard oblique kicking your cousin. You are not john jones.





JowGaWolf said:


> I don't need to be John Jones to kick the mess out of someone's leg, shin, or knee with an oblique kick (shadowless kick).


I haven’t seen many people that can do that kick very well. Of course I don’t go looking over fences very often either so who knows what I’m missing.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's always a cloud about what's possible by comparing it to MMA and I think people short change themselves when they view techniques from that perspective.
> 
> Are my fighting skills Professional MMA quality?  I guess it doesn't matter in the reality of the things as most people aren't getting attacked on the streets by MMA fighters.  So from that perspective it's not relevant if I'm not fighting a professional MMA fighter.


Bingo! If I am getting attacked by pro MMA fighters on the streets of Arcata I’m either doing something very wrong or very right.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's always a cloud about what's possible by comparing it to MMA and I think people short change themselves when they view techniques from that perspective.
> 
> Are my fighting skills Professional MMA quality?  I guess it doesn't matter in the reality of the things as most people aren't getting attacked on the streets by MMA fighters.  So from that perspective it's not relevant if I'm not fighting a professional MMA fighter.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I haven’t seen many people that can do that kick very well. Of course I don’t go looking over fences very often either so who knows what I’m missing.


It's one of my favorite kicks. A lot of people aren't good at them because they treat it as a kick that is used to stop someone's forward motion, like keep them at bay. 
My vision of that kick is to cause damage.  If there kick is at the shin then I want to break the shin.  If the kick is at the knee then I want that leg to bend backwards like a crane.  It's that type of force that keeps people from advancing.  I'm not saying that's the only way to use them.  It's just my perspective.  In sparring, I focus on timing and accuracy which is important.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok is the obverse also true? That because I have knocked people down on the street that that somehow will transfer to the ring? I’m not sure about that. In any case I’m over 50 and not looking to prove anything to anyone so it’s moot.


I'd say yes. You'd be better equipped in the ring than someone who'd only read about boxing (to continue Steve's analogy), but not as well prepared as someone who trained for that context.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok is the obverse also true? That because I have knocked people down on the street that that somehow will transfer to the ring? I’m not sure about that. In any case I’m over 50 and not looking to prove anything to anyone so it’s moot.


Of course your street fight experience can be transferred into ring/mat. The sport/competition time frame may be between age 20 - 40. After 40, usually people don't compete any more. The experience can then be carried over into street fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 22, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> My neighbors don't know anything about martial arts so for years they still think I train Karate even though I tell them that I train Kung Fu.


When people asked me, "Do you still do that chop chop stuff?" I truly don't know how to answer it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I have knocked people down on the street that that somehow will transfer to the ring?


I have zero boxing training. I don't have to train in boxing to know how to use jab-cross-hook-uppercut (it's all in my long fist system). I competed in a golden glove boxing once (Liberty Hill, Texas). In that tournament, there were many red necks who also didn't have any boxing training. They just want to test their fighting skill in that tournament environment (I was one of them).


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## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'd say yes. You'd be better equipped in the ring than someone who'd only read about boxing (to continue Steve's analogy), but not as well prepared as someone who trained for that context.


Ah yes.  Context matters.  That old bug-bear.


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Oh I’m not suggesting that street fighting is a good way to learn, not at all. It is however, where most of my actual experience came from. To answer your point, I really don’t know how I would perform in a rules based competition. I would say that it’s likely I would be a DQ because I don’t train  for a sport. I am hardwired to win at any cost when fighting for real. I have no doubts or delusions about what happens when it’s real. Let me ask you, how much street violence experience you have? I’m not being facetious, I am genuinely curious.


I think you might be right.  You'd probably fail.  Maybe not.  Depends on how close that competition ruleset is to what you know how to do.  If you have never grappled at all, and your only experience as a fighter is striking "on the street", and the competition were BJJ, you would almost certainly fail.  This seems obvious, but to be clear, it's because the experience you have is not similar to the experience you need in the new context. 

Let's make the analogy a little closer to what happens in "self defense."  What if you were required to compete with no advance notice, and the stakes were very high for a loss.  You're walking along and out of nowhere, you are pulled into an MMA school and made to compete in an MMA match.  All they will tell you is if you lose your first match (by DQ or anything else), they beat you and kill your dog.  You have no idea who you're fighting against, not his skill level, his size, his level of fitness... nothing.  You're just thrown in, told to compete, and informed that you do not want to lose, or else. 

As I said, all experience is of some value.  But some is more relevant than other's, and there is a difference between academic experience and practical experience. 

To answer your question, I'd say more than most, and not as much as some.  I was always fighting someone until high school.  By the time I got to high school, I was better equipped to manage the gangs, guns, knives, and fights.  I still got into a few fights, but talked my way out of most situations.  I smoked weed and skipped classes a lot, so when you hang out in pool halls and in dangerous areas, trouble was unavoidable sometimes. I've had knives and guns pulled on me, and fortunately, have been able to manage those situations in one way or another.   I also got into some more constructive activities, like the wrestling team and a few years of wing chun.  In the military, I found myself in fights more often than I liked, because my friends were drunk idiots.  We also had issues in some big cities, because it was Germany during the cold war, and not everyone liked Americans.  After that, I have a different kind of experience working for several years with people who are disabled, often homeless, often addicted to alcohol, drugs, or both, and who could be very unpredictable. 

But overall, the last 20 years or so have been very quiet.


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2022)

The oblique kick isn't the point.  It's the end result... up or down, success or failure.  And who is better prepared to succeed.  

And ultimately, the point is, if you have limited practical experience fighting, your odds of success in a fight of any kind are very low.  Even lower if you were "taught" to fight by someone who also has limited practical experience.  And even lower still if the pressure to perform is very high and there are potentially dire consequences for failure.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think you might be right.  You'd probably fail.  Maybe not.  Depends on how close that competition ruleset is to what you know how to do.  If you have never grappled at all, and your only experience as a fighter is striking "on the street", and the competition were BJJ, you would almost certainly fail.  This seems obvious, but to be clear, it's because the experience you have is not similar to the experience you need in the new context.
> 
> Let's make the analogy a little closer to what happens in "self defense."  What if you were required to compete with no advance notice, and the stakes were very high for a loss.  You're walking along and out of nowhere, you are pulled into an MMA school and made to compete in an MMA match.  All they will tell you is if you lose your first match (by DQ or anything else), they beat you and kill your dog.  You have no idea who you're fighting against, not his skill level, his size, his level of fitness... nothing.  You're just thrown in, told to compete, and informed that you do not want to lose, or else.
> 
> ...


I had JJJ and boxing as a kid. I can roll on a lower belt level. I’m more striking than grappling though. I have done well in the past but you know the old saying “there is always someone tougher.“


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

Steve said:


> The oblique kick isn't the point.  It's the end result... up or down, success or failure.  And who is better prepared to succeed.
> 
> And ultimately, the point is, if you have limited practical experience fighting, your odds of success in a fight of any kind are very low.  Even lower if you were "taught" to fight by someone who also has limited practical experience.  And even lower still if the pressure to perform is very high and there are potentially dire consequences for failure.


I agree with all but the last. When it’s for real, and it’s dire consequences, I turn on completely. No thoughts. Just go time. I thrive in a high pressure environment.


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## drop bear (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok is the obverse also true? That because I have knocked people down on the street that that somehow will transfer to the ring? I’m not sure about that. In any case I’m over 50 and not looking to prove anything to anyone so it’s moot.



Not as easily. People in the ring can generally fight. Which is a hugely different scenario.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I agree with all but the last. When it’s for real, and it’s dire consequences, I turn on completely. No thoughts. Just go time. I thrive in a high pressure environment.


I think that Competition fear is nothing like Street fear.  Street fear is worse at least to me. Lots of uncertainty.


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I agree with all but the last. When it’s for real, and it’s dire consequences, I turn on completely. No thoughts. Just go time. I thrive in a high pressure environment.


In this case, success is the different context… which means if you get DQ’d that’s a fail.


----------



## Steve (Feb 23, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think that Competition fear is nothing like Street fear.  Street fear is worse at least to me. Lots of uncertainty.


I think you’ve missed the point.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That because I have knocked people down on the street that that somehow will transfer to the ring?


When someone is young, he can spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily. Within 3 years, he has 3 x 365 x 15 = 16,425 rounds of sparring/wrestling experience. It's very difficult to have that many street fights experience in our real life.


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok is the obverse also true? That because I have knocked people down on the street that that somehow will transfer to the ring? I’m not sure about that. In any case I’m over 50 and not looking to prove anything to anyone so it’s moot.


It really depends on how good you ACTUALLY are fighting on the street, how much experience you actually have, and how complimentary the skills you have are to the ring. To be clear, “you” is the generic you.  Not you in particular.


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## Buka (Feb 23, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people asked me, "Do you still do that chop chop stuff?" I truly don't know how to answer it.


I usually answer with...."yup."


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 23, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people asked me, "Do you still do that chop chop stuff?" I truly don't know how to answer it.


The best way is to inform them that it's pronounced "jop", as in "jop hop".

Jop means to bring together.  Jop sticks...


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## drop bear (Feb 23, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think you’ve missed the point.



The point is that street fights are this magical apex of fighting while also requiring less effort to prepare for and engage in. 

It tastes great and is less filling. Which is why there are so many more street fighters than ring fighters.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

Steve said:


> It really depends on how good you ACTUALLY are fighting on the street, how much experience you actually have, and how complimentary the skills you have are to the ring. To be clear, “you” is the generic you.  Not you in particular.


I’m not that good, even in the generic sense. That should settle it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The point is that street fights are this magical apex of fighting while also requiring less effort to prepare for and engage in.
> 
> It tastes great and is less filling. Which is why there are so many more street fighters than ring fighters.


There is nothing magical about it. There certainly anything appealing or redeeming about it either.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Not as easily. People in the ring can generally fight. Which is a hugely different scenario.


People in the ring can fight in that context, it doesn’t mean all that much in the street. Anyone can get hurt, we are very fragile creatures, even the pro fighters.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The point is that street fights are this magical apex of fighting


Nothing magical about street fights.  I don't think anyone who has actually been in a street fight thinks this.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people asked me, "Do you still do that chop chop stuff?" I truly don't know how to answer it.


Yeah I don't like when people say stuff like that.  There are a lot of way I can might interpret that question.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> People in the ring can fight in that context, it doesn’t mean all that much in the street. Anyone can get hurt, we are very fragile creatures, even the pro fighters.



Which context doesn't mean much?

 So say a boxer could hit you really hard or a wrestler could throw you and not let you up. 

These are things that would mean quite a lot in the street. Especially considering just those two things are probably 90% of street fighting.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Nothing magical about street fights.  I don't think anyone who has actually been in a street fight thinks this.



So many street fighters think this. It is basically a trope in MMA gyms.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Buka said:


> I usually answer with...."yup."


I think the next time someone asks me, I'll tell them that I do karate, and maybe the next time they seem they will ask me if I'm still doing kung fu lol.


drop bear said:


> So many street fighters think this. It is basically a trope in MMA gyms.


I don't know if "Street fighters" in the U.S. is a big issue. To me any organized fight with rules is not a street fight.  Street fight to me is 2 people get into an argument, disagreement, or conflict that leads to physical violence.  These are people who don't care what MMA, combat sport, TMA, or any other fighting system think.   The only point they are going make is that they will dominate you that day.

People who organize fights on the streets are recreational fighters. These are the people who host the backyard fights.  There recognition isn't world fame, they want "Street Credit".  Their fights have no requirements.  If someone wants to fight then they "Step in the ring."  The few people that I've known to do this don't make any claims that they can beat someone in MMA.  These are definitely not people who have any interest in going to an MMA Gym or TMA school to prove their point. 

When I talk about street fights, those are not the guys who I'm thinking about.  They are not same group I'm thinking about when I say "Street Fear" vs "Competitive Fear"  they are not the same guys I had to deal with in my past.

I could be wrong or it may be a regional thing here, but I don't think many MMA gyms in the US have issues about street fighters / recreational fighters


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> People in the ring can fight in that context, it doesn’t mean all that much in the street. Anyone can get hurt, we are very fragile creatures, even the pro fighters.


If we're talking about a less-restrictive ruleset, it does mean quite a bit in the street. There's a difference between being able to fight and not being able to be injured. Someone who can fight, can fight. If they can fight in a restrictive ruleset, most of that will transfer to an unrestricted fight, and the closer that ruleset is to the unrestricted fight they end up in, the more their experience transfers.

Does this mean someone who does well in MMA is invincible in the street? Of course not. Does it mean they're going to have better percentages than someone without that experience? Definitely.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The point is that street fights are this magical apex of fighting while also requiring less effort to prepare for and engage in.
> 
> It tastes great and is less filling. Which is why there are so many more street fighters than ring fighters.





Wing Woo Gar said:


> There is nothing magical about it. There certainly anything appealing or redeeming about it either.





JowGaWolf said:


> Nothing magical about street fights.  I don't think anyone who has actually been in a street fight thinks this.


I can't tell from your responses if you actually got the point drop bear was making or not, so I figure I'll clarify for anyone who might be confused by his writing style.

Drop bear isn't actually suggesting that there is anything magical about street fights. He's sarcastically pointing out what he sees as the contradiction between the following points which are often made by the same people:

Street fights are inherently more dangerous/intense/scary/chaotic/etc, than combat sports 
Someone who is training for street fights doesn't have to put in the same degree of intense training/physical conditioning/hard sparring/etc. that combat sports athletes do.
His point is that if you say you are training for "the street" and "the street" is really that much more dangerous than the ring or the cage, then you should be training harder than a competitive boxer or MMA competitor, not less.


My view is slightly different. I wouldn't say that a given fight in "the street" is necessarily rougher than a fight in the ring or the cage. I would say that it's more random. Imagine that you decided to sign up for a "martial arts competition", but you didn't find out until the match began whether you were in the white belt division of a point karate tournament, an amateur boxing match, a high school wrestling meet, a forms competition, a professional Lethwei bout, a Dog Brothers full-contact stick fight, or a title fight against the UFC heavyweight champion. Statistically speaking, you're more likely to end up somewhere at the easier end of the spectrum, but there's always the chance of landing in a situation you are completely unprepared to handle.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 24, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I can't tell from your responses if you actually got the point drop bear was making or not, so I figure I'll clarify for anyone who might be confused by his writing style.
> 
> Drop bear isn't actually suggesting that there is anything magical about street fights. He's sarcastically pointing out what he sees as the contradiction between the following points which are often made by the same people:
> 
> ...


As usual, very well put, Tony.


----------



## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My view is slightly different. I wouldn't say that a given fight in "the street" is necessarily rougher than a fight in the ring or the cage. I would say that it's more random. Imagine that you decided to sign up for a "martial arts competition", but you didn't find out until the match began whether you were in the white belt division of a point karate tournament, an amateur boxing match, a high school wrestling meet, a forms competition, a professional Lethwei bout, a Dog Brothers full-contact stick fight, or a title fight against the UFC heavyweight champion. Statistically speaking, you're more likely to end up somewhere at the easier end of the spectrum, but there's always the chance of landing in a situation you are completely unprepared to handle.


This is the heart of the analogy I shared earlier.  Add a spinning wheel of consequences that ranges from a few bruises to losing your wallet to death, and most self defense training stops making much sense.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> In this case, success is the different context… which means if you get DQ’d that’s a fail.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course your street fight experience can be transferred into ring/mat. The sport/competition time frame may be between age 20 - 40. After 40, usually people don't compete any more. The experience can then be carried over into street fight.





Tony Dismukes said:


> I can't tell from your responses if you actually got the point drop bear was making or not, so I figure I'll clarify for anyone who might be confused by his writing style.
> 
> Drop bear isn't actually suggesting that there is anything magical about street fights. He's sarcastically pointing out what he sees as the contradiction between the following points which are often made by the same people:
> 
> ...


I get it. What I mean is that there is no way to be totally prepared to be attacked on the street and I’m not talking about an ego trip fight, I’m talking about being robbed at knife point, getting stabbed in the face and ribs, or attacked by multiple people. All three have happened to me. Anyone at all that thinks they are ready for that because of mma or TMA or whatever is totally full of it. If they haven’t been stabbed, or had bullets zip past their face and hit your friend,  then you don’t know what that is at all. All the training in the world goes out the window when your friend is getting his head stomped and you can’t help because you are held at gun point. There is no preparation for that. Let that settle in for you guys that think you are so tough in the ring. It wouldnt mean much in the street fights that I saw growing up.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> This is the heart of the analogy I shared earlier.  Add a spinning wheel of consequences that ranges from a few bruises to losing your wallet to death, and most self defense training stops making much sense.


That’s my point. You cant train for street fights. It just happens and sometimes you don’t know it till it’s too late to get out of it. Thankfully hasn’t happened to me since I left the city many years ago.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If we're talking about a less-restrictive ruleset, it does mean quite a bit in the street. There's a difference between being able to fight and not being able to be injured. Someone who can fight, can fight. If they can fight in a restrictive ruleset, most of that will transfer to an unrestricted fight, and the closer that ruleset is to the unrestricted fight they end up in, the more their experience transfers.
> 
> Does this mean someone who does well in MMA is invincible in the street? Of course not. Does it mean they're going to have better percentages than someone without that experience? Definitely.


I disagree, its never fair, there are weapons, its chaotic. In fact, I think that tough guy “ I’ve got this” attitude is likely to escalate the situation.  I can give a somewhat recent example. A close friend trained kickboxing at fairtex in the Bay Area. A person side swiped my friends Muay Thai teachers car right out front of the gym. The teacher ran outside to confront the offender. The offenders car got stuck in the traffic, so the kickboxing teacher was able to approach and say WTF? You just hit my car! The offender then saw that a muscle built guy was about to pull him out of his car, so he shot and killed the teacher on the spot. The teacher was well trained and tough. Sad but true story, the street is not the ring, treating one like the other can get you dead.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> don't know if "Street fighters" in the U.S. is a big issue. To me any organized fight with rules is not a street fight. Street fight to me is 2 people get into an argument, disagreement, or conflict that leads to physical violence. These are people who don't care what MMA, combat sport, TMA, or any other fighting system think. The only point they are going make is that they will dominate you that day.
> 
> People who organize fights on the streets are recreational fighters. These are the people who host the backyard fights. There recognition isn't world fame, they want "Street Credit". Their fights have no requirements. If someone wants to fight then they "Step in the ring." The few people that I've known to do this don't make any claims that they can beat someone in MMA. These are definitely not people who have any interest in going to an MMA Gym or TMA school to prove their point.
> 
> ...



We get about 1 every three months come in telling us a out how he is some sort of knock out merchant on the streets. 

And he is generally fairly easily handled by most of the experienced guys. 

The standard for being a tough guy in the street isn't very high.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> We get about 1 every three months come in telling us a out how he is some sort of knock out merchant on the streets.
> 
> And he is generally fairly easily handled by most of the experienced guys.
> 
> The standard for being a tough guy in the street isn't very high.


I totally agree with you. They are not the same thing. I get similar folks. That doesn’t mean they aren’t dangerous in their own element. Which is exactly my point. Just because you are ufc champ doesn’t mean that a well placed brick to the back of the head won’t end you in one second flat. Same as just because you can knock someone out with sucker punches doesn’t mean you can rock and roll in the ring. I think we finally agree on something. Unless I’m wrong yet again?


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> His point is that if you say you are training for "the street" and "the street" is really that much more dangerous than the ring or the cage, then you should be training harder than a competitive boxer or MMA competitor, not less.


I don't think this is true either.  If I'm losing a street fight I can pull out a knife or get my friend in on the action.  Lot's of cases where a street fight ended up with someone getting stabbed or shot by someone who trains less than an MMA fighter.

"training for the streets"  My experience with this is that if a person is really training for the streets then they are training to not be in a fight because of the dangers that I listed above.   January of this year, an MMA fighter was stabbed to death in Brazil there is a good chance that the person that stabbed him doesn't train like an MMA fighter.
"the streets" may mean different things to different people maybe  "the streets" in Australia have a lot of fist fights.  If that's the case then I agree with Drop Bear.  From what I know about "The Streets," the first thoughts are about knife and gun.  No one cares what you can do with your kicks, punches, or grappling. 

If I was going to use the term "street fight" like I think Drop bear is trying to use it as.  I would say "Empty hand street fighting"


Tony Dismukes said:


> My view is slightly different. I wouldn't say that a given fight in "the street" is necessarily rougher than a fight in the ring or the cage. I would say that it's more random. Imagine that you decided to sign up for a "martial arts competition", but you didn't find out until the match began whether you were in the white belt division of a point karate tournament, an amateur boxing match, a high school wrestling meet, a forms competition, a professional Lethwei bout, a Dog Brothers full-contact stick fight, or a title fight against the UFC heavyweight champion. Statistically speaking, you're more likely to end up somewhere at the easier end of the spectrum, but there's always the chance of landing in a situation you are completely unprepared to handle.


This is what makes it dangerous. It could start out as a white belt division and turn into a full contact weapons fight or 2 vs1, or dodge ball with a brick or a trash can.  Road Rage can start as a shouting match and end up with a shootout. 

Last night I was going to post a video of a guy who was tall and built.  It started out as road range.  He got out of his car pumped is fists as he approached.  You can hear the guy unseen int he background say "What now!! Go back to your car"  The tough guy had a gun pulled on him by someone who trains less.   What did the tough guy do? He shut his mouth and walked back to his car. He was fortunate that he was given the opportunity to walk back to his car.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I disagree, its never fair, there are weapons, its chaotic. In fact, I think that tough guy “ I’ve got this” attitude is likely to escalate the situation.  I can give a somewhat recent example. A close friend trained kickboxing at fairtex in the Bay Area. A person side swiped my friends Muay Thai teachers car right out front of the gym. The teacher ran outside to confront the offender. The offenders car got stuck in the traffic, so the kickboxing teacher was able to approach and say WTF? You just hit my car! The offender then saw that a muscle built guy was about to pull him out of his car, so he shot and killed the teacher on the spot. The teacher was well trained and tough. Sad but true story, the street is not the ring, treating one like the other can get you dead.


I disagree. It is sometimes fair, but you can't count on it. There are sometimes weapons, and sometimes not. And I don't know that MMA training is any more likely to engender a tough-guy attitude than anything else (though it's likely it attracts people with that attitude at a higher rate than, say, Aikido).

Individual examples will always be findable. We could find a few dozen that show MMA training helped people survived assaults, and a few dozen that show they didn't.

My point is that, of the possible things you might face "in the street", a percentage of them can be survived or escaped by fighting. This is one area where all martial arts seem to agree, though they still manage to argue about it at the same time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I totally agree with you. They are not the same thing. I get similar folks. That doesn’t mean they aren’t dangerous in their own element. Which is exactly my point. Just because you are ufc champ doesn’t mean that a well placed brick to the back of the head won’t end you in one second flat. Same as just because you can knock someone out with sucker punches doesn’t mean you can rock and roll in the ring. I think we finally agree on something. Unless I’m wrong yet again?


This is an argument from an extreme, and it seems specious to me. Someone shooting from 30 paces negates all fighting ability. But that's not what MA (including MMA, SD-oriented training, or anything else with any semblance of reality to it) is trying to deal with. That those things (raged weapons and surprise bricks to the back of the head) aren't likely to be mitigated by fighting skill doesn't in any way suggest that fighting skill offers no improvement of survival chances in other possible encounters.


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## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That’s my point. You cant train for street fights. It just happens and sometimes you don’t know it till it’s too late to get out of it. Thankfully hasn’t happened to me since I left the city many years ago.



This is a new one.  The existential crisis approach to self defense training. There is no preparation, so why bother?  Nothing works.  No one is more or less prepared than anyone else for the mean streets.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> We get about 1 every three months come in telling us a out how he is some sort of knock out merchant on the streets.
> 
> And he is generally fairly easily handled by most of the experienced guys.
> 
> The standard for being a tough guy in the street isn't very high.


If you are talking about people like that then I wouldn't give them the title "street fighter" I wouldn't honor them with that.  Call that guy a "recreational fighter" with a self-esteem issue.  Those people don't even "pick low hanging fruit."  They "pick fruit that is on the ground" much of it is made of people who don't have the skill set nor the determination to compete at an amateur level.  Dude's like that are chumps drunk on their own busted dreams of glory.  I'm not saying all recreational fighters are like that.  I'm only talking about the ones that go to gym with the vision of beating everyone.

I think of them like I think of Back Yard Wrestling vs Professional Wrestling.  

Guys who know how to fight and where their skills actually stand could probably take turns punching a bag for 5 minutes and get an idea of which of the 5 can beat them down.  When the MMA guy at my gym hits the bag.  I don't sit there and think "ah I can be that guy."  First thing that comes to my mind is that he's got a lot of power that I don't want to camp out in.

Sorry your gym gets a lot of those chumps.  Keep serving them up.  Nope the standard for being a tough guy in the street has never been high.  But it has always been dirty. The ones that come to your gym thinking that they are tough don't even rise to street status.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I disagree, its never fair, there are weapons, its chaotic. In fact, I think that tough guy “ I’ve got this” attitude is likely to escalate the situation.  I can give a somewhat recent example. A close friend trained kickboxing at fairtex in the Bay Area. A person side swiped my friends Muay Thai teachers car right out front of the gym. The teacher ran outside to confront the offender. The offenders car got stuck in the traffic, so the kickboxing teacher was able to approach and say WTF? You just hit my car! The offender then saw that a muscle built guy was about to pull him out of his car, so he shot and killed the teacher on the spot. The teacher was well trained and tough. Sad but true story, the street is not the ring, treating one like the other can get you dead.


Alex Gong? I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy.

That sort of occurrence is why I always teach my students that avoiding the fight is the way to go when at all possible. As I said in my previous comment, you just don't know what you're going to get. Against 99+% of unarmed opponents, Alex would have easily dominated a fight in the ring or in the streets. But there is no way (especially in the U.S.) to know beforehand that an adversary will be unarmed. 

In this situation, Alex didn't have any need to pursue the guy who hit his car. There was no one he needed to defend. He could have just written down the guy's license plate number and called the cops. But he let his anger and ego take over and the result was a tragedy.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Alex Gong? I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy.
> 
> That sort of occurrence is why I always teach my students that avoiding the fight is the way to go when at all possible. As I said in my previous comment, you just don't know what you're going to get. Against 99+% of unarmed opponents, Alex would have easily dominated a fight in the ring or in the streets. But there is no way (especially in the U.S.) to know beforehand that an adversary will be unarmed.
> 
> In this situation, Alex didn't have any need to pursue the guy who hit his car. There was no one he needed to defend. He could have just written down the guy's license plate number and called the cops. But he let his anger and ego take over and the result was a tragedy.


Yes it was. Yes he was a nice guy. Yes he was very skilled. It was an easy mistake to make. He is missed. No way to know that would happen. Very sad.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I disagree, its never fair, there are weapons, its chaotic. In fact, I think that tough guy “ I’ve got this” attitude is likely to escalate the situation.  I can give a somewhat recent example. A close friend trained kickboxing at fairtex in the Bay Area. A person side swiped my friends Muay Thai teachers car right out front of the gym. The teacher ran outside to confront the offender. The offenders car got stuck in the traffic, so the kickboxing teacher was able to approach and say WTF? You just hit my car! The offender then saw that a muscle built guy was about to pull him out of his car, so he shot and killed the teacher on the spot. The teacher was well trained and tough. Sad but true story, the street is not the ring, treating one like the other can get you dead.


I remember when that happened.  I was living in San Francisco at the time.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Alex Gong? I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy.
> 
> That sort of occurrence is why I always teach my students that avoiding the fight is the way to go when at all possible. As I said in my previous comment, you just don't know what you're going to get. Against 99+% of unarmed opponents, Alex would have easily dominated a fight in the ring or in the streets. But there is no way (especially in the U.S.) to know beforehand that an adversary will be unarmed.
> 
> In this situation, Alex didn't have any need to pursue the guy who hit his car. There was no one he needed to defend. He could have just written down the guy's license plate number and called the cops. But he let his anger and ego take over and the result was a tragedy.


I wasn’t there, but my friend Matt was. It was traumatic for everyone involved. I’m not sure it was ego or anger even, it could have just been like “ hey! You hit my car!”


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> This is a new one.  The existential crisis approach to self defense training. There is no preparation, so why bother?  Nothing works.  No one is more or less prepared than anyone else for the mean streets.


Now, I didn’t say why bother. You are switching tracks. I never said nothing works. I never said any of this, so you aren’t really being fair to say that my comment is the existential crisis approach. I’m done arguing the point, if we can’t be fair in our debate it’s pointless to continue. Beyond that, I’m wrong, I don’t know anything about what I’m saying. You are right, MMA is the be all and end all of all things martial. I have wasted enough time blathering on about this stuff that I clearly have no experience or knowledge of. I’m on my back peeing in total submission. Are we good now?


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That’s my point. You cant train for street fights. It just happens and sometimes you don’t know it till it’s too late to get out of it. Thankfully hasn’t happened to me since I left the city many years ago.


A person that tells me they train for "Street fights" will lose instantly lose credibility with me.  If I'm in a calm and laid back mood then I would probably ask them, what do they mean by "Street fights."  Iol.  Out of all of the self-defense classes and martial arts classes I taught, I have never once said.  "I'm going to train you how to win a street fight." The best I can do is train someone so that they have a chance to know when one might be happening and how gracefully take that "off ramp" so they can exit the conflict without appearing weak and insulting.  Oh I also teach "How to keep ya mouth shut."  Some people get sucked in when they should be taking that exit and getting out of a situation about to go bad.

As for the other stuff when they may not know when or where they will be attack.  All I can is, take threats seriously and keep scanning the environment. 

 Don't be on the phone unless you are calling the police. That'll get you jacked up lol.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> A person that tells me they train for "Street fights" will lose instantly lose credibility with me.  If I'm in a calm and laid back mood then I would probably ask them, what do they mean by "Street fights."  Iol.  Out of all of the self-defense classes and martial arts classes I taught, I have never once said.  "I'm going to train you how to win a street fight." The best I can do is train someone so that they have a chance to know when one might be happening and how gracefully take that "off ramp" so they can exit the conflict without appearing weak and insulting.  Oh I also teach "How to keep ya mouth shut."  Some people get sucked in when they should be taking that exit and getting out of a situation about to go bad.
> 
> As for the other stuff when they may not know when or where they will be attack.  All I can is, take threats seriously and keep scanning the environment.
> 
> Don't be on the phone unless you are calling the police. That'll get you jacked up lol.


Funny you say that, because that’s how I got car jacked when I was 19. On a pay phone at the gas station. Asked me for a cigarette, then boom hit me. Then one of the other two got my keys and wallet while the third one held a gun on me. Long, dejected, angry walk home to explain to my gf at the time. That one was in Riverside.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I remember when that happened.  I was living in San Francisco at the time.


It was a tough time for the students there. Alex was the dude.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yes it was. Yes he was a nice guy. Yes he was very skilled. It was an easy mistake to make. He is missed. No way to know that would happen. Very sad.


My default is set to "Everyone has a weapon." and "Everyone has back up except for me."  This is my default so that I can be more measured in conflicts, scan for possible weapons and friends who may jump in.   I also scan the environment for things that can be used as weapons or help me.  But most of all, I try not to let my mouth get me into more trouble. If someone wants to take an exit out of the conversation, then I let them.  If they let me take an exit then I 'll take that too.  I don't need the last word or the street cred.


----------



## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think this is true either.  If I'm losing a street fight I can pull out a knife or get my friend in on the action.  Lot's of cases where a street fight ended up with someone getting stabbed or shot by someone who trains less than an MMA fighter.



yeah, but if you pull out your knife, I'll pull out my bazooka, and I will have more friends than you, and they will all be highly trained ninja.  If this is a battle of creative writing, I feel really, really well prepared to invent something more extreme than you.  Come at me...  I type 85 words per minute and am fully caffeinated.  

Doesn't have much to do with reality, but it's still fun to make things up, as you clearly know.  




Wing Woo Gar said:


> Now, I didn’t say why bother. You are switching tracks. I never said nothing works. I never said any of this.



You didn't?  You're words say no... but they also say yes.



Wing Woo Gar said:


> That’s my point. *You cant train for street fights.* It just happens and sometimes you don’t know it till it’s too late to get out of it. Thankfully hasn’t happened to me since I left the city many years ago.


I mean, this is the entirety of your post.  I highlighted the key phrase, which is "You cant [sic] train for street fights."  It literally comes after you say, "That's my point," which is how I know that it's your point.  

That said, I'm fine letting it drop.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> My default is set to "Everyone has a weapon." and "Everyone has back up except for me."  This is my default so that I can be more measured in conflicts, scan for possible weapons and friends who may jump in.   I also scan the environment for things that can be used as weapons or help me.  But most of all, I try not to let my mouth get me into more trouble. If someone wants to take an exit out of the conversation, then I let them.  If they let me take an exit then I 'll take that too.  I don't need the last word or the street cred.


Effing A skippy! I don’t care a lick about the last word or ego at this point in life. I finally have something to lose other than my life. I’m just trying to avoid training injury these days. That other life is hopefully over. Seems like a bad dream anyway. I don’t miss long walks home in the cheapest apartment neighborhoods. I don’t miss gunshots or ghetto birds waking me up every night either. That damned spotlight is the worst, it goes through curtains!


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That one was in Riverside.


ha ha ha.. Why does ever Riverside have crazy stories like that.   My cousin had a birthday on a street called Riverside. I got to that place and couldn't help to think I was in the wrong place,  No parking lights. Small bar tucked into a small wooded section area looked rundown and like the businesses were abandon.  Worst place to open a bar lol.  Bar only had one way out too. lol  I've never been down a Riverside that made me feel comfortable lol


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> yeah, but if you pull out your knife, I'll pull out my bazooka, and I will have more friends than you, and they will all be highly trained ninja.  If this is a battle of creative writing, I feel really, really well prepared to invent something more extreme than you.  Come at me...  I type 85 words per minute and am fully caffeinated.
> 
> Doesn't have much to do with reality, but it's still fun to make things up, as you clearly know.
> 
> ...


Whatever man, I’m over it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Effing A skippy! I don’t care a lick about the last word or ego at this point in life. I finally have something to lose other than my life. I’m just trying to avoid training injury these days. That other life is hopefully over. Seems like a bad dream anyway. I don’t miss long walks home in the cheapest apartment neighborhoods. I don’t miss gunshots or ghetto birds waking me up every night either. That damned spotlight is the worst, it goes through curtains!


ha ha ha.. Ghetto Birds.  yeah I don't miss those either.  Everytime something happened in my area they used light up the woods near where I lived.  My reaction was "Ah H--L,  what's going on now?"  2 things I worried about.
1. Was I going to run into the guy they are looking for
2. Were they going to think I'm the guy they are looking for.

Stuff is nuts.  I don't miss where I used to live either.  For anyone else that's never had to be around stuff like that.  Be thankful.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.. Ghetto Birds.  yeah I don't miss those either.  Everytime something happened in my area they used light up the woods near where I lived.  My reaction was "Ah H--L,  what's going on now?"  2 things I worried about.
> 1. Was I going to run into the guy they are looking for
> 2. Were they going to think I'm the guy they are looking for.
> 
> Stuff is nuts.  I don't miss where I used to live either.  For anyone else that's never had to be around stuff like that.  Be thankful.


Downtown and north town Long Beach in the 80s was the real deal. ilived there from age 9 to 19. I left after the L.A. Riots. Never missed it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 24, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> you are training for "the street"


A: My dear, could you pick up some milk from the store?
B: It's my time to train my "street fight". I'm not sure I will come home alive.

IMO, the "street fight" training can be dangerous.


----------



## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

You guys are so street.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Whatever man, I’m over it.


Really Steve? I had thought we could build a rapport and respect each other. I guess I was wrong again.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> You guys are so street.


I’m not sure we have the same definition. I respect your opinion Steve.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> yeah, but if you pull out your knife, I'll pull out my bazooka, and I will have more friends than you, and they will all be highly trained ninja.  If this is a battle of creative writing, I feel really, really well prepared to invent something more extreme than you.  Come at me...  I type 85 words per minute and am fully caffeinated.
> 
> Doesn't have much to do with reality, but it's still fun to make things up, as you clearly know.
> 
> ...


Laughing at me afterwards is not letting it drop. It’s literally insulting me. Thanks. I appreciate your attempt at being sincere.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> You guys are so street.


One MA instructor had a MA school in Rio de Janeiro. During the weekend, he would take his students to the street to train street fight. His student would pinch on a girl's butts and then fought her boyfriend. They then moved on to another street.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 24, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I can't tell from your responses if you actually got the point drop bear was making or not, so I figure I'll clarify for anyone who might be confused by his writing style.
> 
> Drop bear isn't actually suggesting that there is anything magical about street fights. He's sarcastically pointing out what he sees as the contradiction between the following points which are often made by the same people:
> 
> ...



I actually don't find much in the point made above to get onboard with.  First, I don't feel the streets are objectively all that dangerous, although there are certainly areas in particular that can be.  But overall, at least for people living in much of the modern world, the chances of random violence in their normal lives, is minimal to virtually non-existent.  However, the severity of such an encounter perhaps has a greater chance of a tragic outcome, even if just because someone falls over and hits their head on the concrete.  One thing about combat sports is they are designed with a ruleset and referees and an environment that is meant to minimize the possibility of actual death in the ring.  Those safeguards do not exist on the street, and an accidental death can happen even when the assailant did not have that intention.

The notion that one needs to train harder than a MMA champion in order to defend oneself on the street is pretty silly, to be honest.  An MMA competitor is training for a fight that he knows will happen, and he knows that his opponent will be training hard for that fight, so he had better do so as well.  There is a 100% chance that this fight will come about (barring unforseen interruptions/delays, like Covid or the flu or a back spasm or food poisoning, or whatever).  So of course it makes sense to train hard for this fight.  How much time does a successful mma fellow put into training, if he gets into the middle or upper levels of the sport?  6-8 hours a day?  plus working with a nutritionist and whatnot.  It is a full-time job, at that level. And I cannot believe that the highest intesity of the training lasts for longer than a certain period of time in the workup to the match.  That kind of intensity cannot be sustained indefinitely.  Presenting this argument even shrouded in the cloak of sarcasm, is being dishonest in the debate.  But, whatever.

 Tony, I like your analogy that you added below.  It makes sense, I think particularly that your assailant is far more likely to be in the non-to-low level of skill.  That has the ring of truth to it, but is not meant to negate the fact that even an unskilled enemy can be very dangerous. 

But at any rate, the notion that one needs to make training into a second full-time job and indefinitely sustain a high intensity of training in order to prepare for an unlikely event, is ridiculous on its face and would just breed paranoia if someone actually tried to go down that road.  Who wants that in their life?  I guess we all decide for ourselves the level of paranoia to which we will subscribe.  That level just ain't worth it.  No thanks. 


Tony Dismukes said:


> My view is slightly different. I wouldn't say that a given fight in "the street" is necessarily rougher than a fight in the ring or the cage. I would say that it's more random. Imagine that you decided to sign up for a "martial arts competition", but you didn't find out until the match began whether you were in the white belt division of a point karate tournament, an amateur boxing match, a high school wrestling meet, a forms competition, a professional Lethwei bout, a Dog Brothers full-contact stick fight, or a title fight against the UFC heavyweight champion. Statistically speaking, you're more likely to end up somewhere at the easier end of the spectrum, but there's always the chance of landing in a situation you are completely unprepared to handle.


----------



## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Really Steve? I had thought we could build a rapport and respect each other. I guess I was wrong again.


What’s happening right now?


----------



## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Laughing at me afterwards is not letting it drop. It’s literally insulting me. Thanks. I appreciate your attempt at being sincere.


I sincerely thought you were joking and was laughing with you.   I have not understood your last five or so posts and really thought you were making a joke I just didn’t get.  They don’t make any sense to me.


----------



## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I actually don't find much in the point made above to get onboard with.  First, I don't feel the streets are objectively all that dangerous, although there are certainly areas in particular that can be.  But overall, at least for people living in much of the modern world, the chances of random violence in their normal lives, is minimal to virtually non-existent.  However, the severity of such an encounter perhaps has a greater chance of a tragic outcome, even if just because someone falls over and hits their head on the concrete.  One thing about combat sports is they are designed with a ruleset and referees and an environment that is meant to minimize the possibility of actual death in the ring.  Those safeguards do not exist on the street, and an accidental death can happen even when the assailant did not have that intention.
> 
> The notion that one needs to train harder than a MMA champion in order to defend oneself on the street is pretty silly, to be honest.  An MMA competitor is training for a fight that he knows will happen, and he knows that his opponent will be training hard for that fight, so he had better do so as well.  There is a 100% chance that this fight will come about (barring unforseen interruptions/delays, like Covid or the flu or a back spasm or food poisoning, or whatever).  So of course it makes sense to train hard for this fight.  How much time does a successful mma fellow put into training, if he gets into the middle or upper levels of the sport?  6-8 hours a day?  plus working with a nutritionist and whatnot.  It is a full-time job, at that level. And I cannot believe that the highest intesity of the training lasts for longer than a certain period of time in the workup to the match.  That kind of intensity cannot be sustained indefinitely.  Presenting this argument even shrouded in the cloak of sarcasm, is being dishonest in the debate.  But, whatever.
> 
> ...


😒


----------



## Steve (Feb 24, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I actually don't find much in the point made above to get onboard with.  First, I don't feel the streets are objectively all that dangerous, although there are certainly areas in particular that can be.  But overall, at least for people living in much of the modern world, the chances of random violence in their normal lives, is minimal to virtually non-existent.  However, the severity of such an encounter perhaps has a greater chance of a tragic outcome, even if just because someone falls over and hits their head on the concrete.  One thing about combat sports is they are designed with a ruleset and referees and an environment that is meant to minimize the possibility of actual death in the ring.  Those safeguards do not exist on the street, and an accidental death can happen even when the assailant did not have that intention.
> 
> The notion that one needs to train harder than a MMA champion in order to defend oneself on the street is pretty silly, to be honest.  An MMA competitor is training for a fight that he knows will happen, and he knows that his opponent will be training hard for that fight, so he had better do so as well.  There is a 100% chance that this fight will come about (barring unforseen interruptions/delays, like Covid or the flu or a back spasm or food poisoning, or whatever).  So of course it makes sense to train hard for this fight.  How much time does a successful mma fellow put into training, if he gets into the middle or upper levels of the sport?  6-8 hours a day?  plus working with a nutritionist and whatnot.  It is a full-time job, at that level. And I cannot believe that the highest intesity of the training lasts for longer than a certain period of time in the workup to the match.  That kind of intensity cannot be sustained indefinitely.  Presenting this argument even shrouded in the cloak of sarcasm, is being dishonest in the debate.  But, whatever.
> 
> ...


Good news. folks who train three times per week in a combat sport will develop functional skill. It doesn’t need to be a second full time job unless you have aspirations to become a pro.  Yay!


----------



## Martial D (Feb 25, 2022)

These discussions continue to perplex me.

Proponent of system a says "well sure, our system doesn't work very well or at all in sport because all the rules n stuff, but it will work much better in the street cause weapons and multiple attackers" 

Ok so the logic is that despite your system not working in one vs one at all unless you can eyepoke cause...you know...eye pokes...

We should put more faith in it to work 'in the streetz' than the one that's proven to work 1 vs 1 without even needing to eye poke *gasps*

Anyway...carry on.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 25, 2022)

Martial D said:


> despite your system not working in one vs one at all


D...You had me until you said this.  Again.  Why rail against entire "systems"?  It gets you nowhere.

All styles can work.  There's no style that doesn't have at least one person out there who train it correctly including sparring and prep for competition.  And by one I mean many.  Are there karateka that don't spar?  Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't.  Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?

Each art out there has it's scions and poseurs.

There isn't a style you can name that also can't also find full contact fighters in.  I remember early UFC when karate of all things was said to "not work anymore"..  That didn't age well.  When I saw Lyoto Machida pull off a classic White Crane technique for a KO, I laughed so hard.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

Martial D said:


> These discussions continue to perplex me.
> 
> Proponent of system a says "well sure, our system doesn't work very well or at all in sport because all the rules n stuff, but it will work much better in the street cause weapons and multiple attackers"
> 
> ...


I was looking back to see who said this, “ well sure, our system doesn’t work very well or at all in sport…” but I cant find it anywhere. Who said it and what system was it they were talking about?


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Are there karateka that don't spar? Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't. Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?


I have never encountered or heard of a BJJ school which doesn't include regular sparring. Such a place may exist somewhere, but they would struggle to be regarded as legitimate by the larger BJJ community.

I _have_ encountered BJJ schools where the only regular sparring they do is pure ground grappling (no standup, takedowns, strikes, etc), at least for the lower belts. I would agree that students at such a school would be poorly prepared for a fight unless they also trained in some complementary system. Fortunately most of the schools I've seen which have this issue do offer classes in systems like Muay Thai or MMA, which gives students a chance to balance out their training.

Personally I'm not a fan of requiring students to train different arts in order to become competent fighters, so I teach my BJJ classes with a balanced blend of standup/ground and street/sport.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I was looking back to see who said this, “ well sure, our system doesn’t work very well or at all in sport…” but I cant find it anywhere. Who said it and what system was it they were talking about?


I don't know whether anyone has said that in this particular thread or not, but I think Martial D was referencing a common refrain by representatives of various styles explaining that their arts don't work in the ring/cage because all their best techniques are illegal in combat sports. I've seen this from a wide variety of stylists.

Personally, I think it might be more productive if commenters responded to specific posts and claims made in the current thread, rather than to arguments made in previous discussions.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 25, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I have never encountered or heard of a BJJ school which doesn't include regular sparring. Such a place may exist somewhere, but they would struggle to be regarded as legitimate by the larger BJJ community.
> 
> I _have_ encountered BJJ schools where the only regular sparring they do is pure ground grappling (no standup, takedowns, strikes, etc), at least for the lower belts. I would agree that students at such a school would be poorly prepared for a fight unless they also trained in some complementary system. Fortunately most of the schools I've seen which have this issue do offer classes in systems like Muay Thai or MMA, which gives students a chance to balance out their training.
> 
> Personally I'm not a fan of requiring students to train different arts in order to become competent fighters, so I teach my BJJ classes with a balanced blend of standup/ground and street/sport.


There are actually quite a few BJJ schools giving up on the "hard sparring" aspects for obvious reasons: it's easier to get students, and a huge market for people who desire black belts.  It's easy to find discussions about these places online.  Think celebrities, kiddie birthday parties, and belt mills.  These plague every martial art with no exceptions.

As far as legitimacy...I often feel the arts communities themselves are the worst place to find that.  That's the path to lineage wars, dojo storms, and other egocentric nonsense.

The IBJJF is a cesspool of corruption, based on what I've read.  But they'll be sure to tell you they are the authorita on all things BJJ.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 25, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know whether anyone has said that in this particular thread or not, but I think Martial D was referencing a common refrain by representatives of various styles explaining that their arts don't work in the ring/cage because all their best techniques are illegal in combat sports. I've seen this from a wide variety of stylists.


This is definitely an issue but there are two sides to that camp, one legit and one not.

I can only use about half of what I've trained in competition, the other half is indeed illegal.  But not because it's not effective, because in many cases it's a little too effective.

Neck breaking techniques exist.  They work against resistance.  But they're illegal because people might die.  So cannot use, that's an honest statement.  But Hung Ga is very effective in San Shou for a century.  Punching, kicking, elbows, clinching, throwing, sweeping, limb locking all OK.

That's a much different thing than a school not sparring or competing at all because too deadly.  Those people are sadly deluded.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 25, 2022)

Martial D said:


> These discussions continue to perplex me.
> 
> Proponent of system a says "well sure, our system doesn't work very well or at all in sport because all the rules n stuff, but it will work much better in the street cause weapons and multiple attackers"
> 
> ...





Wing Woo Gar said:


> I was looking back to see who said this, “ well sure, our system doesn’t work very well or at all in sport…” but I cant find it anywhere. Who said it and what system was it they were talking about?





Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know whether anyone has said that in this particular thread or not, but I think Martial D was referencing a common refrain by representatives of various styles explaining that their arts don't work in the ring/cage because all their best techniques are illegal in combat sports. I've seen this from a wide variety of stylists.
> 
> Personally, I think it might be more productive if commenters responded to specific posts and claims made in the current thread, rather than to arguments made in previous discussions.


I was curious and I'm a bit of a speed reader, so I went back and checked through the entire thread. The particular claim that Martial D was complaining about has not been made or even implied by anyone in this particular discussion. I have seen it made by a bunch of people in a bunch of previous conversations, but not in this one.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are actually quite a few BJJ schools giving up on the "hard sparring" aspects for obvious reasons: it's easier to get students, and a huge market for people who desire black belts. It's easy to find discussions about these places online. Think celebrities, kiddie birthday parties, and belt mills. These plague every martial art with no exceptions.


Eh, I'm relatively tuned in to online discussions in the BJJ community and I think you may be overstating the case. 

There are a small handful of BJJ instructors (actually just one that I can think of offhand, but there may be more) who have been criticized for awarding rank to celebrity actors who don't spar (or only spar with the instructor), but the school itself still has plenty of regular sparring. It's just the celebrity paying for expensive private lessons who doesn't spar.

All the kids classes I've encountered have included sparring, but once you get down to the really younger ages then more of it may be (appropriately)  games for developing attributes. 

Belt mills? We may get there in BJJ eventually, but I wouldn't consider it an issue yet. I've never heard of a place where you can just show up, pay your gym fees for a couple of years and get a black belt. I've occasionally seen accusations that someone was awarded a rank higher than they deserved based on their skill level. Even if that was true, inevitably the person involved had been training and sparring for quite a few years. 

Heck, when I got my black belt I felt like I was unqualified and the worst black belt I knew - and I had been training BJJ (including regular sparring) for 15 years.


Oily Dragon said:


> The IBJJF is a cesspool of corruption, based on what I've read. But they'll be sure to tell you they are the authorita on all things BJJ.


The rumors of corruption may be true. At the very least it's an organization primarily devoted to making money and I don't have any particular use for it or association with it. However they definitely are not an influence towards schools giving up on sparring or becoming belt factories. For one thing, their primary road to money and influence is via sponsoring some of the most prestigious tournaments. If students don't spar, they won't compete. If they don't compete in IBJJF tournaments, then the students and their instructors don't have to pay expensive IBJJF belt registration fees. For another thing, the IBJJF does set minimum time in grade for rank promotions, which mitigates against people wanting quick ranks.


----------



## Buka (Feb 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> D...You had me until you said this.  Again.  Why rail against entire "systems"?  It gets you nowhere.
> 
> All styles can work.  There's no style that doesn't have at least one person out there who train it correctly including sparring and prep for competition.  And by one I mean many.  Are there karateka that don't spar?  Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't.  Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?
> 
> ...


I remember that. I really liked watching Machida.

I've never seen or heard of a BJJ school that doesn't roll. I can't imagine it. Might be some that never start from stand up, but I've never seen that either.

Had a discussion with a gal coworker a long time ago. She was a brown belt in Karate, about to be tested for her first Dan. I forget which style her school was. I was teaching American Karate at the time. She seemed to know everything, so I asked her how much sparring they did.

She told me she had never sparred. She then went on to say "I've never actually seen sparring."

I was truly at a loss for words. I just politely nodded from that point.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> D...You had me until you said this.  Again.  Why rail against entire "systems"?  It gets you nowhere.
> 
> All styles can work.  There's no style that doesn't have at least one person out there who train it correctly including sparring and prep for competition.  And by one I mean many.  Are there karateka that don't spar?  Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't.  Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?
> 
> ...



OK. Specifically your system then. Your coaches. Your school and your fighters.

Unless of course you are churning out fighters. In which case. Sorry.

I mean let's go the other way. Yes karate works in the ring. I know guys from karate schools who are exceptional fighters. That doesn't mean someone else's karate works.

Yes there are BJJ schools that don't spar. And guess what. They don't turn out capable fighters. Their system doesn't work very well.

So we can still draw a line between a system that works and a system that doesn't.

All systems cannot work. There are consistent methods that work. Which is why machida's karate looks more like a muay Thai class that Freddy can't fights karate school.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yes there are BJJ schools that don't spar. And guess what. They don't turn out capable fighters. Their system doesn't work very well.



If the system is the bicycle then does the bicycle not work because the student doesn't train to use it?
If the system is Kung Fu then does Kung Fu not work because the student doesn't train to use it?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

If this is the system and the person claims they can learn to ride a bicycle by training this, then their training doesn't match their goal. In the context of being able to ride a bicycle, then this system would be inadequate and would be considered as broken.  But if your goal is to get some exercise by pedaling, then this system would be good for that.   I just wouldn't depend on it to teach me how to ride a bicycle.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> OK. Specifically your system then. Your coaches. Your school and your fighters.
> 
> Unless of course you are churning out fighters. In which case. Sorry.


Why are you apologizing?

I don't have a system, but all of my insructors  and schools I have been in over the years, send fighters to competition, with rare exception like my Tai Chi sifu who is too old to compete full contact, but is pretty good at showing me the meditation, Qigong, and wrestling aspects.  Nowadays he's a forms medalist.

Every one of the Southern Five Family arts has a history of full contact fighters going to competitions back a dozen generations.  I know at least one Five Ancestor Fist fighter who went Hulk Mode and into pro MMA.  Actually I know several such people personally.  I must be very lucky.  The guy who taught me Muay Thai kicks was a Jeet Kune Do dude.  Crazy, I know.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 25, 2022)

Buka said:


> I remember that. I really liked watching Machida.
> 
> I've never seen or heard of a BJJ school that doesn't roll. I can't imagine it. Might be some that never start from stand up, but I've never seen that either.
> 
> ...


I thought it was gossip too and then a few years back I did a search for "BJJ schools that don't spar" and was a little blown away by all of the conversations going on.  Hundreds or more.

There are apparently schools that don't let white belts spar, or force them to complete courses first.  That's weird to me, none of the martial arts I've done prohibited sparring.  I didn't think that was a thing in BJJ but it appears so.  Who knows the scale?  Maybe BJJ has gone the TMA route: buyer beware.

I know we're going off topic, but here's one just as example.

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/lst63w


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are apparently schools that don't let white belts spar,


If you use sparring as part of the warm sequence before the form class start, your students will have to spar.

When you don't give your new students any options, the problem is solved.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you don't give your new students any options, the problem is solved.


My  wife tells me this all the time.  I got moody when I read your statement because she has told me this so many times lol.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are apparently schools that don't let white belts spar, or force them to complete courses first. That's weird to me, none of the martial arts I've done prohibited sparring. I didn't think that was a thing in BJJ but it appears so.


I don't particularly care for this method of teaching, but it's important to note that these schools do incorporate plenty of regular sparring once the student reaches blue belt. (Or two stripe white belt, or completed a basics class, or whatever the requirement is for that school.)  From what I've been able to determine regarding these schools, students can usually start sparring within 3-9 months.

The idea behind that approach is that they want students to have a foundation of basic techniques to work with when they start sparring, rather than just throwing them to the sharks before they have any idea of what to do and seeing who sticks around afterwards. I understand the sentiment, but in my experience I can get just about any student to spar safely and productively in a much shorter period of time without using them as shark bait.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If the system is the bicycle then does the bicycle not work because the student doesn't train to use it?
> If the system is Kung Fu then does Kung Fu not work because the student doesn't train to use it?
> 
> View attachment 28109



Martial arts is the only place where someone could, with a straight face, say they ride a bicycle. And actually be doing whatever that is in the picture. 

Which is why you get so many people who are sceptical about Martial arts. 

And instead of fixing it. Or separating themselves from the people who do that. Martial artists confuse and deceive people to make it as hard as they can to tell.

And when they do get called on it get all semantics and butt hurt.

It isn't my fault that for example most kung fu gyms are a girl riding a stationary bike and calling it a triathlon more often than they are a hard training gym with the capability to actually develop a person in to someone who can fight. 

So yes. The bicycle doesn't work. If you don't use it properly.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If this is the system and the person claims they can learn to ride a bicycle by training this, then their training doesn't match their goal. In the context of being able to ride a bicycle, then this system would be inadequate and would be considered as broken.  But if your goal is to get some exercise by pedaling, then this system would be good for that.   I just wouldn't depend on it to teach me how to ride a bicycle.
> 
> 
> View attachment 28110



That would somehow be more spiritual or something. 

It wouldn't be that say an actual bike will do everything that bike will do. Puss all the things it won't.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 25, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't particularly care for this method of teaching, but it's important to note that these schools do incorporate plenty of regular sparring once the student reaches blue belt. (Or two stripe white belt, or completed a basics class, or whatever the requirement is for that school.)  From what I've been able to determine regarding these schools, students can usually start sparring within 3-9 months.
> 
> The idea behind that approach is that they want students to have a foundation of basic techniques to work with when they start sparring, rather than just throwing them to the sharks before they have any idea of what to do and seeing who sticks around afterwards. I understand the sentiment, but in my experience I can get just about any student to spar safely and productively in a much shorter period of time without using them as shark bait.



there are flow roll systems of BJJ where you can get your really real belts. And not spar. They are designed for people too precious to roll or something.

I personally think they short change the students by selling the name and not providing the service.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> rather than just throwing them to the sharks before they have any idea of what to do and seeing who sticks around afterwards.


This is the fastest way to demoralize a new student. Bait gets eaten and the stuff that's left is clearly damaged and not whole.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

"


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Martial arts is the only place where someone could, with a straight face, say they ride a bicycle. And actually be doing whatever that is in the picture.
> 
> Which is why you get so many people who are sceptical about Martial arts.


It's not confusing.  You just have to think about it. If I tell you the answer then you will resist the truth due to your bias and own perceptions of how you see things.  If you think about it and come to the answer yourself then you will see the truth without me having to tell you. 



drop bear said:


> So yes. The bicycle doesn't work. If you don't use it properly.


See.. and you say it was confusing.  You came up with the answer and I didn't have to tell you.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That would somehow be more spiritual or something.
> 
> It wouldn't be that say an actual bike will do everything that bike will do. Puss all the things it won't.


Now you understand how I see it.   In reality most martial arts schools are probably like the bike with the lady on it.  It's functional bike, but the only way that it will be functional is if you take it off the stand and apply the system for functional use.  Unfortunately most martial arts schools keep the bike on the stand, what makes it worst is that the bike is handed down generations.  With each teacher saying that it's a functional bike.  Then after 3 generations past, no one takes the bike off the stand by the  6th generation, someone says. Oh my systems have stories about how my teacher rode this bike all over china and defeat many bike riders.  So they get on the bike while it's still on the stand and they pedal hard thinking that they are actually learning the functional parts of that bike. 

What we end up with are people puffing out their chest about how hard they train that on that bike, and how they are going to beat other people who ride bikes.  They bring the bike, with stand to the starting line on a hot sunny day and lose badly.  So they make up excuses as to why they lost.  It was too hot, or the sun was in my eyes.

The problem is they never realized none of that training matters unless they take it off the stand and actually ride the bike. And train for function.

Now that other bike with no wheels. Technically we couldn't even call it a bicycle. It will never ride all over China or even to the next room lol.  That system is broken and non functional for riding around.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> there are flow roll systems of BJJ where you can get your really real belts. And not spar. They are designed for people too precious to roll or something.
> 
> I personally think they short change the students by selling the name and not providing the service.


They are probably giving students exactly what the want which is why they have students in the first place.  People like you probably wouldn't train there.  I wouldn't. I really like working hard and seeing the results and feeling the joy and pride of not giving up. The belt not only represents the skill level it represents the work one had to do to get to that point.  But that's just me.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Now you understand how I see it.   In reality most martial arts schools are probably like the bike with the lady on it.  It's functional bike, but the only way that it will be functional is if you take it off the stand and apply the system for functional use.  Unfortunately most martial arts schools keep the bike on the stand, what makes it worst is that the bike is handed down generations.  With each teacher saying that it's a functional bike.  Then after 3 generations past, no one takes the bike off the stand by the  6th generation, someone says. Oh my systems have stories about how my teacher rode this bike all over china and defeat many bike riders.  So they get on the bike while it's still on the stand and they pedal hard thinking that they are actually learning the functional parts of that bike.
> 
> What we end up with are people puffing out their chest about how hard they train that on that bike, and how they are going to beat other people who ride bikes.  They bring the bike, with stand to the starting line on a hot sunny day and lose badly.  So they make up excuses as to why they lost.  It was too hot, or the sun was in my eyes.
> 
> ...



So we have two bikes. Like we have two martial arts systems. 

Now if we removed any bias. Or preconceived ideas of what a working bike looks like.

How do we know which bike or which martial arts is functional?


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not confusing.  You just have to think about it. If I tell you the answer then you will resist the truth due to your bias and own perceptions of how you see things.  If you think about it and come to the answer yourself then you will see the truth without me having to tell you.
> 
> 
> See.. and you say it was confusing.  You came up with the answer and I didn't have to tell you.



We know what a bike does. Nobody is deliberately muddying the waters. 

So we are walking in to this with preconceived ideas. But those preconceptions are justified.  We can look at two bikes and just tell. 

People are not equipped to just tell in regards to martial arts for the most part.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> They are probably giving students exactly what the want which is why they have students in the first place.  People like you probably wouldn't train there.  I wouldn't. I really like working hard and seeing the results and feeling the joy and pride of not giving up. The belt not only represents the skill level it represents the work one had to do to get to that point.  But that's just me.



Yeah. Sort of?

I think there is a lot of convincing people that what they get is what they wanted.

Which is basically how marketing works.


----------



## Unkogami (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the fastest way to demoralize a new student. Bait gets eaten and the stuff that's left is clearly damaged and not whole.


Maybe this generation of student.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> D...You had me until you said this.  Again.  Why rail against entire "systems"?  It gets you nowhere.
> 
> All styles can work.  There's no style that doesn't have at least one person out there who train it correctly including sparring and prep for competition.  And by one I mean many.  Are there karateka that don't spar?  Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't.  Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?
> 
> ...


I don't know if this was @Martial D's intent, but when I say "system" that usually refers to the methodology of training and developing skill, whereas "style" refers to the organized principles (which often includes some tradition of how it is trained). The distinction makes your take and his very different, without being necessarily in conflict.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If the system is the bicycle then does the bicycle not work because the student doesn't train to use it?
> If the system is Kung Fu then does Kung Fu not work because the student doesn't train to use it?
> 
> View attachment 28109


I think the analogy is in that picture. That bike (the "style") is in a system that keeps it from moving. It's ineffective as transport in that system. Change the system (put it on the street without the other bits) and the bike functions as transport.

So, in DB's post, he's referring to the delivery system for training BJJ (the style), and saying that system doesn't work for developing fighters.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't particularly care for this method of teaching, but it's important to note that these schools do incorporate plenty of regular sparring once the student reaches blue belt. (Or two stripe white belt, or completed a basics class, or whatever the requirement is for that school.)  From what I've been able to determine regarding these schools, students can usually start sparring within 3-9 months.
> 
> The idea behind that approach is that they want students to have a foundation of basic techniques to work with when they start sparring, rather than just throwing them to the sharks before they have any idea of what to do and seeing who sticks around afterwards. I understand the sentiment, but in my experience I can get just about any student to spar safely and productively in a much shorter period of time without using them as shark bait.


I'm wondering if folks using this method maybe came through a system where new students were used as shark bait. That would explain their approach. If it were binary (shark bait or delay to sparring), I'd side with them. Of course, it's not binary, and there are many other options.

I saw the same issue in NGA. Schools that used sparring (from what I saw, that was a minority) usually gated it behind a rank (say, green belt, which would be at least a couple of years in). And then it was generally up to the participants to decide their limits. I put brand new students into sparring almost immediately, in a very limited structure, where they can get used to the chaos and start developing some live skills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Maybe this generation of student.


Any generation. If you take someone and don't let them develop skill before testing it - just throw them in and have folks trash them - most will decide they simply can't do that thing. A few will persist. Those few are likely either pigheaded (and resilient) enough to succeed in that system, or foolish enough to not realize they aren't being trained well. This kind of approach will at best develop bad habits that have to later be corrected.

A gradual entry to sparring - starting with a platform where they have at least some chance of at least partial success - allows them to see where they stand and apply what they are learning.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So we have two bikes. Like we have two martial arts systems.


Yes. Functional and Non-Functional.  Where functional = designed to be used for fighting.



drop bear said:


> Now if we removed any bias. Or preconceived ideas of what a working bike looks like.
> 
> How do we know which bike or which martial arts is functional?


All functional systems will share common elements.  All functional bikes share common elements. We will first identify the main function: To move from A to B.  We know at least  one bike that we can use as a guide.  From there we can break it apart to see what elements  of that bike to move from A to B.

So with martial arts, we simply do the same.  Pick a system that can be used for fighting.  It can be any empty hand system that you know works 100% and is uses in fighting.  "I don't consider MMA as a system" because there's no one mix of systems that defined it.   So pick a system that is defined we can pick more than one if need, but for now just use one.

After you have that fighting system, break it apart to see what makes it work.  I will use boxing since it has the fewest pieces.
1.Footwork
 - Evasive footwork what does it look like, why does it look that way, and how does it help
 - Offensive footwork
- Defensive footwork


Once you have part that you want to take a look at then compare it to the system in question

Jow Ga
- uses shuffling steps.  Does boxing use shuffling steps.




 
If Jow Ga shuffle steps:  "is this the functional use of the shuffle step or the training of shuffling steps." Is this the "bike on the stand" or the "bike on the road."  Remember the application of the shuffle should look similar to what we see in boxing.  It may not look exactly the same but it will definitely look similar.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> People are not equipped to just tell in regards to martial arts for the most part.


This is true. But comparing systems training can make it easier to weed out the nonsense.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Sort of?
> 
> I think there is a lot of convincing people that what they get is what they wanted.
> 
> Which is basically how marketing works.


Yeah.  Marketing is another problem even for working systems.  Marketing is almost like a moral representation of a business.  If a business is willing to deceive people in their marketing, then they will probably do the same in other things.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Maybe this generation of student.


Oh definitely this generation. This generation has had to grow up with a lot of the challenges people in their 40s+.  Had to grow up with.  In some cases they learned some really bad things like " Everyone is a winner" or participation awards.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> I remember that. I really liked watching Machida.
> 
> I've never seen or heard of a BJJ school that doesn't roll. I can't imagine it. Might be some that never start from stand up, but I've never seen that either.
> 
> ...


I've always said there were two types of martial artist, scholars and warriors. Lots of scholarships out there.  They are important to speading the knowledge but the art of fighting is important to keeping the scholarship knowledge accurate and up to date.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Any generation. If you take someone and don't let them develop skill before testing it - just throw them in and have folks trash them - most will decide they simply can't do that thing. A few will persist. Those few are likely either pigheaded (and resilient) enough to succeed in that system,


This only happens if they have the mentality to push through when things are brutal.  Typically we learn this through everyday life, but these days there are a lot of things of comfort that didn't exist when we're kids.  We can't even wait without picking up a mobile phone lol.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh definitely this generation. This generation has had to grow up with a lot of the challenges people in their 40s+.  Had to grow up with.  In some cases they learned some really bad things like " Everyone is a winner" or participation awards.


I would say that the current generation is also more inclined to recognize an abusive relationship when they see it, and be unwilling to tolerate it.  Some martial arts schools really are little more than an abusive relationship.  Some people manage to thrive in that scenario.  They are usually the kind of person I don’t want to be around.  But that is just me.  Ones mileage may vary.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is true. But comparing systems training can make it easier to weed out the nonsense.



Yeah. Which us back to muay Thai probably turns out fighters and kung fu probably doesn't. Generally.

There are exemptions. But for a general perception that is pretty much on point


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yes. Functional and Non-Functional.  Where functional = designed to be used for fighting.
> 
> 
> All functional systems will share common elements.  All functional bikes share common elements. We will first identify the main function: To move from A to B.  We know at least  one bike that we can use as a guide.  From there we can break it apart to see what elements  of that bike to move from A to B.
> ...



Seriously over complicated.

Functional bike.





Functional martial art.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Which us back to muay Thai probably turns out fighters and kung fu probably doesn't. Generally.
> 
> There are exemptions. But for a general perception that is pretty much on point


It's probably more a matter of kung fu is useful in a lot of areas: health, fitness, longevity, mental health, and fighting.  There's a lot of variety in TMAs in general.  Philosophy most of all.  People can pick and choose what they want.  Sometimes they get sold a bridge, sometimes they find real treasure.

Muay Thai is very specific to kickboxing alone, and doesn't have nearly as many practicioners.  Neither does San Shou, really because that is the hardest part of traditional kung fu training.   That said, there are networks of these people out there.  There are pro UFC fighters, federations of amateurs, etc.

But also a lot of people who think they train to fight without san da.  That's too bad, because those people seem to love making YouTube videos.

So some end up with as you said a perception bias.  I think it's just because there is a firehose of BAD TMA online.  It's a signal vs. noise problem.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's probably more a matter of kung fu is useful in a lot of areas: health, fitness, longevity, mental health, and fighting.  There's a lot of variety in TMAs in general.  Philosophy most of all.  People can pick and choose what they want.  Sometimes they get sold a bridge, sometimes they find real treasure.
> 
> Muay Thai is very specific to kickboxing alone, and doesn't have nearly as many practicioners.  Neither does San Shou, really because that is the hardest part of traditional kung fu training.   That said, there are networks of these people out there.  There are pro UFC fighters, federations of amateurs, etc.
> 
> So some end up with as you said a perception bias.  I think it's just because there is a firehouse of BAD TMA online.  It's a signal vs. noise problem.



The noise is created by the whole all martial arts is useful crowd.

I think this is why combat sports try to separate themselves from these theoretical arts. So they are not confused.

I think if an art is useful in other areas they need to make more of a case for it than not being good at fighting.

I mean you can be a bad fighter and also a screaming duche bag.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 26, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's probably more a matter of kung fu is useful in a lot of areas: health, fitness, longevity, mental health, and fighting. There's a lot of variety in TMAs in general. Philosophy most of all. People can pick and choose what they want. Sometimes they get sold a bridge, sometimes they find real treasure.



By the way. An interesting idea I picked up from doing rounds with some fighters on the weekend is the idea of learning to be gentle.

In that in the heat of battle I am still trying to protect and preserve the guy I am basically beating up.

And as far as a spiritual development point of view I think that is an important aspect.

In the middle of this people are showing care for their fellow human being.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> By the way. An interesting idea I picked up from doing rounds with some fighters on the weekend is the idea of learning to be gentle.
> 
> In that in the heat of battle I am still trying to protect and preserve the guy I am basically beating up.
> 
> ...


I am good friends with all the people I've allowed to beat me up.  That's how I measure my personal martial arts success.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The noise is created by the whole all martial arts is useful crowd.
> 
> I think this is why combat sports try to separate themselves from these theoretical arts. So they are not confused.
> 
> ...


Do combat sports really try to separate themselves?  I don't think that's true, or that it's a problem they even have to deal with.  Real combat skill has always been determined in the field, whatever that is.  That's the trouble with "theoretical", it's hard to name any art that someone somewhere with serious credibility is willing to dismiss.  Even Royce Gracie picked up Thai Boxing, his GJJ wasn't enough to compete for long.  Cung Le wrote a whole book on San Shou, which shows how small the difference between eastern and western styles really are, end of day.  Ramsey Dewey and Tai Chi.

Karate is another a great example.  Huge variety.  There is a whole spectrum from non sparring karate forms schools, but also the entirety of Kyokushin similar schools.

You walk into a San Shou bout without real kung training (falls and throws and all), you're gonna have a bad day.  But that goes for any real combat sport, boxing, wrestling, or any hybrid.  Honestly I can't think of many pro MMA fighters who dismiss TMA out of hand.  That was more of a late 90s thing.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Do combat sports really try to separate themselves?  I don't think that's true, or that it's a problem they even have to deal with.  Real combat skill has always been determined in the field, whatever that is.  That's the trouble with "theoretical", it's hard to name any art that someone somewhere with serious credibility is willing to dismiss.  Even Royce Gracie picked up Thai Boxing, his GJJ wasn't enough to compete for long.  Cung Le wrote a whole book on San Shou, which shows how small the difference between eastern and western styles really are, end of day.  Ramsey Dewey and Tai Chi.
> 
> Karate is another a great example.  Huge variety.  There is a whole spectrum from non sparring karate forms schools, but also the entirety of Kyokushin similar schools.
> 
> You walk into a San Shou bout without real kung training (falls and throws and all), you're gonna have a bad day.  But that goes for any real combat sport, boxing, wrestling, or any hybrid.  Honestly I can't think of many pro MMA fighters who dismiss TMA out of hand.  That was more of a late 90s thing.



Ramsay Dewey was going to fight Master Wong. To separate himself from theoretical arts.


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## Anarax (Feb 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> We get about 1 every three months come in telling us a out how he is some sort of knock out merchant on the streets.
> 
> And he is generally fairly easily handled by most of the experienced guys.
> 
> The standard for being a tough guy in the street isn't very high.


I instantly thought of this "street fighter" that walked into this boxing gym. Video below


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say that the current generation is also more inclined to recognize an abusive relationship when they see it, and be unwilling to tolerate it.  Some martial arts schools really are little more than an abusive relationship.  Some people manage to thrive in that scenario.  They are usually the kind of person I don’t want to be around.  But that is just me.  Ones mileage may vary.


This is true too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This only happens if they have the mentality to push through when things are brutal.  Typically we learn this through everyday life, but these days there are a lot of things of comfort that didn't exist when we're kids.  We can't even wait without picking up a mobile phone lol.


This, however, isn't just about discomfort. If someone recognizes the inefficiency in this approach (and has a better option for training) they'd be wise to ditch to the better option. So it's not necessarily about stick-to-it-iveness (the word my parents' and grandparents' generation used for this, when I was growing up). Sure, you'd need that ability to get through this (or enough dysfunction to not recognize that it's bad). But that doesn't mean it's a good thing to get through this. 

I'm not saying this is what you're doing here - I don't have enough context to see that - but too often I've seen folks suggesting that any hardship is character-building and that therefor quitting during hardship is a flaw. Sometimes quitting during hardship is just the wise decision.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> By the way. An interesting idea I picked up from doing rounds with some fighters on the weekend is the idea of learning to be gentle.
> 
> In that in the heat of battle I am still trying to protect and preserve the guy I am basically beating up.
> 
> ...


This is something touted by a lot of MA, and  I honestly fail to see it in some of their training. I'm okay with a style or system that is all about brutality for SD, as long as that's the honest philosophy espoused. If a school or practitioner promotes their art by talking down sport as too brutal (usually referencing MMA fights), then I should see some real talk about (and training toward) being able to be less brutal than that.

And, really, to be less brutal with someone "in the street", you need to outclass them.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ramsay Dewey was going to fight Master Wong. To separate himself from theoretical arts.


That's a pretty low bar. 

Master Wong is the Wimp Lo of online martial arts video producers.  Master of My Nuts to Your Fist style.

No offense Master Wong.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ramsay Dewey was going to fight Master Wong. To separate himself from theoretical arts.


Do you mean Master Wong was going to fight Ramsy Dewey to separate himself (master wong) from theoretical arts?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Anarax said:


> I instantly thought of this "street fighter" that walked into this boxing gym. Video below


That's, it?  I would have walked in that gym and showed that guy my skills. I'm talking about the guy in blue by the way, not the coach lol.  

But in all seriousness.  He couldn't take that first baby body shot to the gut? That reminded me of my "old man tricks"  "Come on. Keep those hands up. Keep them up.  Protect your head."  then punch the person in the gut. ha ha ha.

I don't even know what to think.  People must be delusional to walk into a gym where they train fighters and then challenge the guy with the most experience.  I can honestly say that I've never had anyone walk in and challenge me or anyone in the school.  I'm going to take that as a blessing that my path rarely crosses the the paths of idiots.  I guess they think that it's a game.  If they want to spar with the coach, then just say so.  But don't challenge the guy lol.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Do you mean Master Wong was going to fight Ramsy Dewey to separate himself (master wong) from theoretical arts?



Ramsey dewy had a problem with master Wong teaching what is basically garbage.


----------



## Unkogami (Feb 27, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Any generation. If you take someone and don't let them develop skill before testing it - just throw them in and have folks trash them - most will decide they simply can't do that thing. ...


Most people are weak in body and spirit.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ramsey dewy had a problem with master Wong teaching what is basically garbage.


lol   youtube drama. I just don't understand it.


----------



## Martial D (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't.


No there isn't. How are you gonna bjj without rolling? That's like saying there are karate schools where they don't punch or kick


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2022)

Martial D said:


> No there isn't. How are you gonna bjj without rolling? That's like saying there are karate schools where they don't punch or kick


I've never seen it, but it could be done. Only drills with cooperative partner. It would have all the problems I've mentioned in the past when that is done in other styles.

It seems like it'd be vanishingly rare in BJJ, because of the overall culture, but with the one branch working with remote teaching and ranking, I'd be surprised if someone, somewhere hasn't gone that way. But still, I've never seen/heard of it.


----------



## Martial D (Mar 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I was looking back to see who said this, “ well sure, our system doesn’t work very well or at all in sport…” but I cant find it anywhere. Who said it and what system was it they were talking about?


It's been a recurring mantra in these discussions here for years. It always comes down to this when the point in the discussion is reached that X style has no tangible evidence of alive effectiveness. Then it's always "yes but MMA is a sport and X style isn't" and what differentiates the sport from non sport? The rules. Always implicative that something in those rules is preventing X style from being that. It's basically a hand wave.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 1, 2022)

Martial D said:


> No there isn't. How are you gonna bjj without rolling? That's like saying there are karate schools where they don't punch or kick


There sure are.  It's a thing, we discussed it further back. 

Throw "BJJ schools that don't spar" into search, you'll find what I mean.  And as somebody else said, there's at least a couple high profile places that don't require sparring.

As far as I understand, these places either don't allow white belts to spar, or require some time before they can, or most extreme, sparring is 100% optional.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I've never seen it, but it could be done. Only drills with cooperative partner. It would have all the problems I've mentioned in the past when that is done in other styles.
> 
> It seems like it'd be vanishingly rare in BJJ, because of the overall culture, but with the one branch working with remote teaching and ranking, I'd be surprised if someone, somewhere hasn't gone that way. But still, I've never seen/heard of it.


From my viewpoint, it's actually been becoming more common.

I couldn't google this stuff 20 years ago.  I think the BJJ system was ripe for this kind of thing...more students means more $$$.  Not everyone wants to spar, they want the "knowledge".  Which is what made TMA into a cottage industry.  BJJ: "come, we will teach you, and you won't break a sweat!".  Cha ching.



			bjj schools that dont spar - Google Search


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 1, 2022)

Here we go.  I knew I saw this somewhere.









						Rigan Machado Designs Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities
					

http://www.bjjee.com/articles/rigan-machado-designs-jiu-jitsu-system-without-sparring-for-celebrities/  [QUOTE]In the April 2015 issue of Jiu Jitsu...




					forums.sherdog.com


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## Martial D (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Here we go.  I knew I saw this somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's such a stretch one off lol. What would you even do in such a class? Flop around in your back alone like a turtle? You sure wouldn't learn ju jitsu that way.

But I guess the same is true of any style. If you aren't doing live resistance you aren't really learning anything.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 1, 2022)

Martial D said:


> That's such a stretch one off lol. What would you even do in such a class? Flop around in your back alone like a turtle? You sure wouldn't learn ju jitsu that way.
> 
> But I guess the same is true of any style. If you aren't doing live resistance you aren't really learning anything.


I totally agree. There's video or something on YouTube of that school.  I guess they literally just show the holds etc.  A lot of famous people train there.  It's Machado so he has a whole lineage of people who obviously spar and compete (well), but there must be a market for this now, which my much younger self would never have imagined but my older wiser self saw coming.

When you think about it every art started to degrade in this way.  Commercialization.

As far as all the other mentions online about white belts being held back a month, 3 months, etc that also sounds familiar to TMA.  Lots of places leave sparring for later on (and not without reason in some cases, safety matters). 

But resistance comes first, even before sparring, and keeping resistance out of the hands of new students is a great way to keep students who don't want hard training, but also a great way to lose me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Here we go.  I knew I saw this somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I mentioned that before. It's a program for wealthy celebrities who are paying big bucks for the private lessons. If you go to the regular classes at Rigan Machado's school, you'll find that sparring is required for regular folks who want to advance in rank.


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## Martial D (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I totally agree. There's video or something on YouTube of that school.  I guess they literally just show the holds etc.  A lot of famous people train there.  It's Machado so he has a whole lineage of people who obviously spar and compete (well), but there must be a market for this now, which my much younger self would never have imagined but my older wiser self saw coming.
> 
> When you think about it every art started to degrade in this way.  Commercialization.
> 
> ...


But. BJJ pretty much IS the sparring/rolling. There's literally nothing in BJJ that you can do without a partner. 

I mean..I guess I could see over time it being aikido-ized into something where it's completely cooperative but would it still be BJJ even?


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 1, 2022)

Martial D said:


> But. BJJ pretty much IS the sparring/rolling. There's literally nothing in BJJ that you can do without a partner.
> 
> I mean..I guess I could see over time it being aikido-ized into something where it's completely cooperative but would it still be BJJ even?


Is that really true?  I haven't trained with BJJ people in a while but their "technical standup" is something I use every time I get out of the pool.  I make sure of it, because crawling out of water is hard.

You can fall on your own, get up on your own.  As much as I understand jiujitsu, that's the whole point.  Please, correct me.


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## Martial D (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Is that really true?  I haven't trained with BJJ people in a while but their "technical standup" is something I use every time I get out of the pool.  I make sure of it, because crawling out of water is hard.
> 
> You can fall on your own, get up on your own.  As much as I understand jiujitsu, that's the whole point.  Please, correct me.


Well sure..you could do stand ups and shrimp across the floor for an hour but that's not really BJJ any more than a spark plug is a car.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 1, 2022)

Martial D said:


> It's been a recurring mantra in these discussions here for years. It always comes down to this when the point in the discussion is reached that X style has no tangible evidence of alive effectiveness. Then it's always "yes but MMA is a sport and X style isn't" and what differentiates the sport from non sport? The rules. Always implicative that something in those rules is preventing X style from being that. It's basically a hand wave.


Yes these convos go in the same direction every time... I’m trying to actively avoid it at this point, there is no nutrition in it, nothing to be gained.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I totally agree. There's video or something on YouTube of that school.  I guess they literally just show the holds etc.  A lot of famous people train there.  It's Machado so he has a whole lineage of people who obviously spar and compete (well), but there must be a market for this now, which my much younger self would never have imagined but my older wiser self saw coming.
> 
> When you think about it every art started to degrade in this way.  Commercialization.
> 
> ...


I don’t let my students spar at first. My reason is that they can’t do much at first, the footwork isn’t there, the timing is off, etc. what do they gain from swinging it out without the skills? I think it just builds bad habits if they do that right off the bat. I’m all for hard sparring, but there has to be a reason and a gain or lesson involved. Most people just fall apart at first. If I move on them the wheels just come right off the cart. It takes time to build something worth a pressure test, otherwise it’s just flailing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I don’t let my students spar at first. My reason is that they can’t do much at first, the footwork isn’t there, the timing is off, etc. what do they gain from swinging it out without the skills? I think it just builds bad habits if they do that right off the bat. I’m all for hard sparring, but there has to be a reason and a gain or lesson involved. Most people just fall apart at first. If I move on them the wheels just come right off the cart. It takes time to build something worth a pressure test, otherwise it’s just flailing.


I start my students off with "defensive sparring". They sometimes don't even have a functional strike at this point. But they've been introduced to basic footwork, balance principles, and moving in/out of clinch distance. That's all they get to use, while a partner (me, for at least the first session) brings a steady stream of light-touch attacks. The student's job is to find ways to control distance and angles without hitting or grabbing. This also lets them start getting used to being "in the storm". Over time, the intensity increases, and the intention is for students to keep returning to this drill even when they have the tools to retaliate.

And for the partner, it's a chance to practice staying on the offensive. I've had so many people come to me with a habit of taking turns (I enter, strike, then back off and defend as you do the same - then repeat the cycle). Some (not all) at least have some combos, but they have the habit of backing off for no reason. This offense-only drill makes them practice looking for openings while still attacking.

Of course, even though they'll return to this drill over time, they do progress to sparring, which eventually includes randori (standing grappling) and rolling (ground grappling).


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 1, 2022)

Ok yes 


Gerry Seymour said:


> I start my students off with "defensive sparring". They sometimes don't even have a functional strike at this point. But they've been introduced to basic footwork, balance principles, and moving in/out of clinch distance. That's all they get to use, while a partner (me, for at least the first session) brings a steady stream of light-touch attacks. The student's job is to find ways to control distance and angles without hitting or grabbing. This also lets them start getting used to being "in the storm". Over time, the intensity increases, and the intention is for students to keep returning to this drill even when they have the tools to retaliate.
> 
> And for the partner, it's a chance to practice staying on the offensive. I've had so many people come to me with a habit of taking turns (I enter, strike, then back off and defend as you do the same - then repeat the cycle). Some (not all) at least have some combos, but they have the habit of backing off for no reason. This offense-only drill makes them practice looking for openings while still attacking.
> 
> Of course, even though they'll return to this drill over time, they do progress to sparring, which eventually includes randori (standing grappling) and rolling (ground grappling).


I definitely do controlled two person drills. I guess I just didn’t label it sparring. Any two punches and a kick then switch partners and switch roles. That’s a common starting point. Lots of two person isometric excercises as well. They always groan their way through those. 6 star is another full contact drill. Conditions the arms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I start my students off with "defensive sparring". They sometimes don't even have a functional strike at this point. But they've been introduced to basic footwork, ...


By using footwork to train defense is a good idea. It's also a good idea that you force your students to stand on the ground (not moving an inch), and play defense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> By using footwork to train defense is a good idea. It's also a good idea that you force your students to stand on the ground (not moving an inch), and play defense.


That's a drill for later, when they have tools for it. In this one, movement is the key - helping them learn not to freeze when they are overwhelmed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That's a drill for later, when they have tools for it. In this one, movement is the key - helping them learn not to freeze when they are overwhelmed.


You are talking about the fire strategy. The earth strategy is what I'm talking about. There are water, metal, and wood strategies too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You are talking about the fire strategy. The earth strategy is what I'm talking about. There are water, metal, and wood strategies too.


Those terms mean nothing to me. I'm talking about beginner drills, versus those that work best when the student has tools to use.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You are talking about the fire strategy. The earth strategy is what I'm talking about. There are water, metal, and wood strategies too.


I thought the topic was sparring strategy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Those terms mean nothing to me. I'm talking about beginner drills, versus those that work best when the student has tools to use.


Fire - move around fast, hard to predict where it will appear next.
Earth - excellent defense. solid connect to the ground, hard to move it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I thought the topic was sparring strategy.


I'm talking about sparring strategy too. After you can detect which strategy that your opponent is using, if you can select the strategy to against him, the fight can be easer.

In one challenge fight, my opponent liked to use long range side kick toward my chest (wood strategy). I used one hand to block his kick, at the same time I drop my elbow on his foot (metal strategy) - metal against wood. When his foot hurt too much and could not kicked me any more, I attacked him. In the whole sparring, I only threw one punch to end that fight.

In one tournament fight, my opponent used a low solid stance with strong defense (earth strategy). he moved in inch by inch. He played 100% defense. No matter how I would attack him, he could block all my kicks/punches. After I backed up outside of the ring twice, I lose that fight. Since then I started to pay attention on fighting strategy. Today if I could fight that guy again, I would just use low roundhouse kick to hurt his legs which is hard to block (wood strategy) - wood against earth.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Fire - move around fast, hard to predict where it will appear next.
> Earth - excellent defense. solid connect to the ground, hard to move it.


Since we're talking about striking-only sparring for beginners in my example, Earth doesn't have a lot of validity in the context. They aren't allowed to use any tools other than movement. Later, when they have tools, either is a valid strategy, though Earth seems like grappling defense, rather than striking defense.

EDIT: reading your next post, I see what you mean about Earth. That's something we work, as well. Our base is somewhere between these two.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> EDIT: reading your next post, I see what you mean about Earth. That's something we work, as well. Our base is somewhere between these two.


I believe Kenpo guys like to use the earth strategy. They like to fight in a low horse stance with leading arm drop down in front of their bodies, and back hand cover their faces. If you throw a punch, their leading arm will come up as a ridge hand to your head.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 3, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Since we're talking about striking-only sparring for beginners in my example, Earth doesn't have a lot of validity in the context. They aren't allowed to use any tools other than movement. Later, when they have tools, either is a valid strategy, though Earth seems like grappling defense, rather than striking defense.
> 
> EDIT: reading your next post, I see what you mean about Earth. That's something we work, as well. Our base is somewhere between these two.


If we're talking Wu Xing Earth...I have something to say about that.

By the Hand of Oberon, we're doing this.

After I make lunch.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe Kenpo guys like to use the earth strategy. They like to fight in a low horse stance with leading arm drop down in front of their bodies, and back hand cover their faces. If you throw a punch, their leading arm will come up as a ridge hand to your head.


As an ex-kenpo guy myself, I would say that it is not possible to make a meaningful generalization like this.  That was certainly never my go-to.  Furthermore, there is no single school of kenpo.  Just that coming downstream from Ed Parker has a huge variety.  When you skip Ed Parker and go straight to William Chow or James Mitose, the variety is even bigger.  And if you add the various other methods that simply use the term Kenpo or Kempo in their description, but have no connection to those already mentioned, the variety is bigger yet. 

Kenpo is a very general term, with a broad meaning.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> If we're talking Wu Xing Earth...I have something to say about that.
> 
> By the Hand of Oberon, we're doing this.
> 
> After I make lunch.


In MA strategies, we have talked about

- metal overcomes wood.
- wood overcomes earth.

Would like to hear your explanation of

- earth overcomes water.
- water overcomes fire.
- fire overcomes metal.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In MA strategies, we have talked about
> 
> - metal overcomes wood.
> - wood overcomes earth.
> ...



Chuck, my dieffenbachia explained it thus.  He (earth) needs the water, after he gets a certain degree of fire (photosynthesis matters).

Only then, can we rock, and bend metal.

_Dieffenbachia_.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> As an ex-kenpo guy myself, I would say that it is not possible to make a meaningful generalization like this.


My experience in Kenpo karate is limited.

I have sparred with many Kenpo guys in Karate tournaments. I had 2 Kenpo black belts in my lunch time sparring group (I call it "fighting club"). I did sparred with Kenpo instructor Tony Martinez in his Austin Kenpo karate school many years ago (Tony is 10th degree BB master today). I believe Tony is one of Ed Parker's students.

My 1st Kung Fu school was Tony's Kenpo school. He moved to another location. I took over his school.



			Home
		






​


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## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My experience in Kenpo karate is limited.
> 
> I have sparred with many Kenpo guys in Karate tournaments. I had 2 Kenpo black belts in my lunch time sparring group (I call it "fighting club"). I did sparred with Kenpo instructor Tony Martinez in his Austin Kenpo karate school many years ago (Tony is 10th degree BB master today). I believe Tony is one of Ed Parker's students.
> 
> ...


Sure, I am not disputing the experience that you had.  Merely stating that kenpo encompasses a lot of variety so what you experienced does not necessarily represent all of kenpo.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My experience in Kenpo karate is limited.
> 
> I have sparred with many Kenpo guys in Karate tournaments. I had 2 Kenpo black belts in my lunch time sparring group (I call it "fighting club"). I did sparred with Kenpo instructor Tony Martinez in his Austin Kenpo karate school many years ago (Tony is 10th degree BB master today). I believe Tony is one of Ed Parker's students.
> 
> ...


I would be afraid to take inside like that.  That cross is a face punch waiting to happen.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would be afraid to take inside like that.  That cross is a face punch waiting to happen.


Agree! Hook punch can be used to counter all straight punches.


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