# A question for Women. What gives?



## Touch Of Death (Feb 5, 2008)

I am a bartender and I do Karaoke at least once a week. I am constantly hearing women complain that they come to the bar to relax and talk to their friends, and are sick and tired of guys comming up to talk to or hit on them. personaly, I don't hit on someone unless she has exhausted herself with signals, but My question is this...
Shouldn't the bar be a place to avoid if you don't want men talking to you? Where do you think single men go on a Saturday night?
Sean


----------



## shesulsa (Feb 5, 2008)

I think women have come to a place in society where they go bar-hopping to hang out with their buddies and relax like men used to.  I think most women have finally gotten the picture that the bar is not always the greatest place to meet Mr. Right ... just Mr. Right Now which is out of trend this year.

I thought guys were on to this?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 5, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I think women have come to a place in society where they go bar-hopping to hang out with their buddies and relax like men used to. I think most women have finally gotten the picture that the bar is not always the greatest place to meet Mr. Right ... just Mr. Right Now which is out of trend this year.
> 
> I thought guys were on to this?


Sure were on to the fact that you don't want unwanted attention, but just add alchohol and... Guess where you are.
Sean


----------



## CoryKS (Feb 5, 2008)

The trick to understanding people is:  don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.


----------



## MA-Caver (Feb 5, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I think women have come to a place in society where they go bar-hopping to hang out with their buddies and relax like men used to.  I think most women have finally gotten the picture that the bar is not always the greatest place to meet Mr. Right ... just Mr. Right Now which is out of trend this year.
> 
> I thought guys were on to this?


On to what? 

You're right, times have changed and us Neanderthals need to understand that, but problem is ... some gals *do* go to the bars to find dates so perhaps wearing a sign around the neck saying "Not Horny! Not Looking!" might help distinguish the two?


----------



## Andrew Green (Feb 5, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I think women have come to a place in society where they go bar-hopping to hang out with their buddies and relax like men used to.  I think most women have finally gotten the picture that the bar is not always the greatest place to meet Mr. Right ... just Mr. Right Now which is out of trend this year.
> 
> I thought guys were on to this?



In general guys don't go to Top 40 Dance bars unless there are girls, or the possibility of girls involved. Right there is your disconnect.  To males dance bars exist solely for the purpose of girls, there is no other reason to have them.  If you want to relax with buddies your hitting a lounge or a pub, maybe setting up a poker table, but under no circumstances whatsoever are a group of males to hit a dance bar for a "boys night out" to dance with each other, and reject any and all female advances.  It is in the guy code, the law is punishable by complete forfeiture of manhood.

Females on the other hand are a strange sort of people, many of which actually think dance bars are a place to go and dance with friends, to perhaps and to dance with friends, not out of hope for romantic encounters afterwards, but because they think it's fun.  No one is really sure why, many people believe it was a joke played on men by some higher power.


----------



## CoryKS (Feb 5, 2008)

There are several explanations for this behavior:

- It's a form of validation.  Since it's be bad form to brag, you phrase it as a complaint.  This could be for the benefit of her friends, in whose eyes she wants to be seen in a positive light, or as a display of value for you, sexy bartender that you are. 

Example:
"OMG, it's soooo hard to find good tires for a BMW."  (I have a BMW.)  
"I hate it when all these guys hit on me." (A lot of guys find me attractive.)

- Another option is that she doesn't mind being hit on, but only by the guys she wants to hit on her.  Which is hopelessly naive.

- Or the simplest possibility, which is that she really expects to go to a social environment that is a known destination for single people trying to meet other single people, and not get hit on.  That's just ridiculous.  And it's unfair, not only to the men in the establishment, but to the women who do want guys to approach them.  Just be polite and let it be known you're not playing tonight.


----------



## Cruentus (Feb 5, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am a bartender and I do Karaoke at least once a week. I am constantly hearing women complain that they come to the bar to relax and talk to their friends, and are sick and tired of guys comming up to talk to or hit on them. personaly, I don't hit on someone unless she has exhausted herself with signals, but My question is this...
> Shouldn't the bar be a place to avoid if you don't want men talking to you? Where do you think single men go on a Saturday night?
> Sean



Many people are pretty much stupid, and that is why you hear the complaining.

Simply put, some women thrive on attention, and get a self esteem boost by dissing men and bitching about it while continuing to frequent places (like certain bars or dance clubs) where it is perfectly reasonable that they would be approached. The same reason the girl who wears revealing clothing that tests social boundries complains that men are looking at her boobs. It makes them feel wanted and important. And, it is disfunctional.

That is the majority of the reason for the complaining, I think. There are many places where women can go (bars and restaurants) to dance or  hang out with friends where it much less likely that they will be hit on. But for some reason it is more fun for some people to go elsewhere and complain... :idunno:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 5, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> Many people are pretty much stupid, and that is why you hear the complaining.
> 
> Simply put, some women thrive on attention, and get a self esteem boost by dissing men and bitching about it while continuing to frequent places (like certain bars or dance clubs) where it is perfectly reasonable that they would be approached. The same reason the girl who wears revealing clothing that tests social boundries complains that men are looking at her boobs. It makes them feel wanted and important. And, it is disfunctional.
> 
> That is the majority of the reason for the complaining, I think. There are many places where women can go (bars and restaurants) to dance or hang out with friends where it much less likely that they will be hit on. But for some reason it is more fun for some people to go elsewhere and complain... :idunno:


I suppose it is kin to dressing up goth and openly complaining when someone stares.
Sean


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2008)

One reason we have pubs and clubs not bars, pubs are for everyone to have a quiet drink etc, clubs are for dancing and chatting up.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 5, 2008)

Quite right, *Tez*.  

Of course, I muck all that up because I refuse to try and 'get to know' a girl in an environment where I have to bellow in her ear to make myself heard ... so I used to (being settled down now) talk to girls in pubs or the theatre instead :O.

On the tangential issue of 'gothdom', as rasied by *ToD* in somewhat negative terms, I've often gathered the intimation that what it means in the States is different from what it means over here?  

I just wanted to highlight the problem that perjorative stereotyping of any group can be a blinkering thing, leading to a distorting image that does not fit reality.  

For example, I have more letters _after_ my name than are in it and consider myself an educated, fairly civilized, man ... and my missus is a Goth and is the warmest, kindest hearted woman I've ever met (which is why I'm happy she is my missus).  

Could that be so if the stereotype of Goths being miserable social misanthropes, fit only for ridicule, was true?

{irrelevant stuff edited out}

So it could well be that there are some women who behave in the 'reversed psychology' manner noted in previous posts (and I agree they do exist) but there are also women who really do go out with their mates just for that reason and not to put themselves 'on show' to attract a 'mate' (however temporarily).


----------



## Drac (Feb 5, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I think women have come to a place in society where they go bar-hopping to hang out with their buddies and relax like men used to. I think most women have finally gotten the picture that the bar is not always the greatest place to meet Mr. Right ... just Mr. Right Now which is out of trend this year.
> 
> I thought guys were on to this?


 
I was..During my bouncer days I had groups of ladies come in JUST to talk and relax..If they were bothered by some idiot they had to call me me over and I waould ask if there was a problem..The girls would all point at the intruder and say " He was not invited".. Then he had to deal with me..


----------



## Empty Hands (Feb 5, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> ... and my missus is a Goth and is the warmest, kindest hearted woman I've ever met (which is why I'm happy she is my missus).



The Goths are OK, it's those miserable Visigoths and Huns who are all worthless, poncy scum.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 5, 2008)

ROFL - and all that burning down of villas and defacing statues malarkey ...


----------



## Drac (Feb 5, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> One reason we have pubs and clubs not bars, pubs are for everyone to have a quiet drink etc, clubs are for dancing and chatting up.


 
I wish we had that over here...


----------



## thardey (Feb 5, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Quite right, *Tez*.
> 
> Of course, I muck all that up because I refuse to try and 'get to know' a girl in an environment where I have to bellow in her ear to make myself heard ... so I used to (being settled down now) talk to girls in pubs or the theatre instead :O.
> 
> On the tangential issue of 'gothdom', as rasied by *ToD* in somewhat negative terms, I've often gathered the intimation that what it means in the States is different from what it means over here?



I don't know about the rest of the states, because "Goth" is probably quite different in all of our subcultures here.

In sleepy 'ole Oregon, though, "Goth" is synonymous with "emo". (Overly emotional.) It's almost always used as a passive-aggressive attack on authority, while crying out for attention in that fake-suicidal attempt kind of way. It's not a healthy movement here, it's an outlet for people with high amounts of insecurity.

I understand, however that in other sub-cultures, it keeps more of the attitude that makes Gothic architecture so intriguing.



> I just wanted to highlight the problem that perjorative stereotyping of any group can be a blinkering thing, leading to a distorting image that does not fit reality.
> 
> For example, I have more letters _after_ my name than are in it and consider myself an educated, fairly civilized, man ... and my missus is a Goth and is the warmest, kindest hearted woman I've ever met (which is why I'm happy she is my missus).
> 
> ...



You and your missus would probably be ashamed to be represented by most of Goth culture here (in S. Oregon, specifically). It's essentially antisocial, narrow-minded, ignorant, and pandering for attention -- more or less the kind of things you've spoken out against here on this board.



> So it could well be that there are some women who behave in the 'reversed psychology' manner noted in previous posts (and I agree they do exist) but there are also women who really do go out with their mates just for that reason and not to put themselves 'on show' to attract a 'mate' (however temporarily).



Perhaps, but bars around here are built and set-up for that purpose. There are no pubs. There are either - "Moe's Tavern" where most women won't go, the Country-music meat market, the punk-rock meat-market, the alternative/salsa meat market, and the Church singles groups. (Only the bravest women would venture into a Sports Bar unattached.) If my sister and her friends want to go hang out together, without being hit on, they usually go places like Applebee's or some restaurant like that that serves mixed drinks. Usually one wouldn't be approached there.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 5, 2008)

Thanks for the Trans-Atlantic insights, *Thardey* :tup:.  It does indeed seem as if the same word 'Goth' is used to describe very different cultural groupings in America and England.  I get the impression that nihilism is high on the agenda for those that call themselves 'Goth' on American soil - a definite intimation of Marilyn Manson (sp?) wannabee-ness?

Don't get me wrong, there are Goths here who can be quite self-serving drama-queens, oh-so-weighed-down with angstyness at the woes of the world.  

There are, however, those that are more properly described in terms of lovers of fine, antiquarian, clothing and a passion for the more intense enjoyment of lifes pleasures and the 'arts'.

Sadly, I do feel that, yet again, we are busy 'importing' the American version as time goes by .


----------



## Drac (Feb 5, 2008)

Ya know what's sad??? I was Goth BEFORE they had a name...They just called me flipping weird...Born to late for somethings and too early for others..As an officer I never had a problem dealing with TRUE Goths..The Emo's should be...Never mind, family site and all that..


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 5, 2008)

It doesn't surprise me that you'd have an understanding of what being a 'Goth' is more properly about, *Drac* - in many ways that Transylvannian chap who keeps ripping off your MO was an archtype of Gothic style :tup:.


----------



## exile (Feb 5, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> The Goths are OK, it's those miserable Visigoths and Huns who are all worthless, poncy scum.



Visigoths, yes, total vermin. And they're the ones who get all the publicity. 

_Ostro_goths, now, well, that's a whole different story!


----------



## jks9199 (Feb 5, 2008)

thardey said:


> In sleepy 'ole Oregon, though, "Goth" is synonymous with "emo". (Overly emotional.) It's almost always used as a passive-aggressive attack on authority, while crying out for attention in that fake-suicidal attempt kind of way. It's not a healthy movement here, it's an outlet for people with high amounts of insecurity.
> ...
> You and your missus would probably be ashamed to be represented by most of Goth culture here (in S. Oregon, specifically). It's essentially antisocial, narrow-minded, ignorant, and pandering for attention -- more or less the kind of things you've spoken out against here on this board.


 
Goth & Emo-kids aren't the same or interchangeable.  Emo is one sort of weird behavior & music; common themes include guys wearing girls jeans and pretty heavy makeup.  (That's where the confusion with the Goth groups comes in.)  Goth here covers a wide spectrum of behaviors that are generally anti-social, including dabbling in the occult and vampirism, lots of black clothes, heavy "walking dead" makeup...  But, just like the punk movement or even skinhead movements, you can't paint them with just one brush.  Some are seriously anti-social, others are just dark & dreary...



Sukerkin said:


> Thanks for the Trans-Atlantic insights, *Thardey* :tup:. It does indeed seem as if the same word 'Goth' is used to describe very different cultural groupings in America and England. I get the impression that nihilism is high on the agenda for those that call themselves 'Goth' on American soil - a definite intimation of Marilyn Manson (sp?) wannabee-ness?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there are Goths here who can be quite self-serving drama-queens, oh-so-weighed-down with angstyness at the woes of the world.
> 
> ...


 
You've got the loose idea, all right.  Sadly, some parts of the Goth movement are pushing their way into my professional awareness.


----------



## Cruentus (Feb 5, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> I suppose it is kin to dressing up goth and openly complaining when someone stares.
> Sean



Yup... pretty much the same thing.



> One reason we have pubs and clubs not bars, pubs are for everyone to have a quiet drink etc, clubs are for dancing and chatting up.



We have the same thing, really. Now that I am married, I prefer to go to quieter places that are more like what you would consider a pub rather then a bar. You can actually get a table and hang with your group, and people generally don't bother you (regardless of whether or not your male or female). When I was single, I preferred the louder places where you could reasonably expect to meet someone. Of course... I have been  contemplating  letting my ballz hang out of my fly and going to dance clubs,  and complaining when people stare at me.... "Um... my eyes are up here!" :rofl:

But seriously, isolated incidents aside, I find that when people are frequently "bothered" by others everywhere they go, that they are doing something to warrent the bothering...

C.


----------



## Cruentus (Feb 5, 2008)

Drac said:


> I wish we had that over here...



You have a ton of places like that in Ohio, depending on where exactly you live. You have Buffalo Wild Wings all over Ohio, which I highly recommend as they usually have UFC on PPV every month. You have a ton of sports bars and local joints. You have sit down restaurants that have pretty nice bar areas. You of course have your Irish and English style pubs as well in your bigger cities.

Not all of these exactly model after "English pubs," but they serve the same purpose in that you can get a table, hang with your friends, and generally not be bothered.

I think that there are plenty of places to go that are not pick up places almost everywhere...


----------



## morph4me (Feb 6, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I think women have come to a place in society where they go bar-hopping to hang out with their buddies and relax like men used to. I think most women have finally gotten the picture that the bar is not always the greatest place to meet Mr. Right ... just Mr. Right Now which is out of trend this year.
> 
> I thought guys were on to this?


 
That's the problem right there in a nutshell. Men are always getting in trouble because of women who overestimate our intelligence.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2008)

I live in the country so all the pubs round our way are little village ones, there's usually a guy snoring in the corner, sheep dogs to fall over and very good beer brewed down the road in Masham at the Black Sheep Brewery. There's usually still a log fire, odd tables and chairs and a cosy atmosphere.Ig you go to the pubs in my daughters village though you'd be forgiven for thinking it's full of children, where she lives,Middleham is well known for the racing stables so it's full of 'little' people lol The whole area though is where "All Creatures Great and Small" was filmed and to be honest things aren't that much changed! Whether that's good ot not depends on how you think.My daughter is finding it suffocating so her and boyfriend wll probably head off for Liverpool where he comes from soon.Now there's a place for clubs! I think I should put the OP's question to her really she's far more up with things now than I am lol!


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 6, 2008)

Yummm ... Black Sheep ...


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Yummm ... Black Sheep ...


 

LOL, they all have their Christmas 'dos' there...! The Black Sheep does very good tours with beer tasting and buffet afterwards.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Quite right, *Tez*.
> 
> Of course, I muck all that up because I refuse to try and 'get to know' a girl in an environment where I have to bellow in her ear to make myself heard ... so I used to (being settled down now) talk to girls in pubs or the theatre instead :O.
> 
> ...


Goth is cool. I like the music, but where I am from it could get you beat up. If a person is decked out, they will get stares and should not take offense; because, there is your trouble.
Sean


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Goth & Emo-kids aren't the same or interchangeable.  Emo is one sort of weird behavior & music; common themes include guys wearing girls jeans and pretty heavy makeup.  (That's where the confusion with the Goth groups comes in.)  Goth here covers a wide spectrum of behaviors that are generally anti-social, including dabbling in the occult and vampirism, lots of black clothes, heavy "walking dead" makeup...  But, just like the punk movement or even skinhead movements, you can't paint them with just one brush.  Some are seriously anti-social, others are just dark & dreary...



Most of the "Goths" here (S. Oregon) are wanna-be's - they don't really have an interest in anything Gothic. In fact, I bet most of them don't even know that there was such a group in history, let alone what they were about. They took that "broad brush" picture and are trying to copy it. It's probably like reading too many cowboy novels and trying to be a cowboy. You can dress like them, and talk like them, but you're embarrassing them.

I'll bet you could find some honest-to-goodness Goths up in Portland, or Seattle, in fact I've met a couple. They were a lot of fun to hang out with in the basement of this little bar in Portland . . . but that's a story for another time.


----------



## Cruentus (Feb 6, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I live in the country so all the pubs round our way are little village ones, there's usually a guy snoring in the corner, sheep dogs to fall over and very good beer brewed down the road in Masham at the Black Sheep Brewery. There's usually still a log fire, odd tables and chairs and a cosy atmosphere.Ig you go to the pubs in my daughters village though you'd be forgiven for thinking it's full of children, where she lives,Middleham is well known for the racing stables so it's full of 'little' people lol The whole area though is where "All Creatures Great and Small" was filmed and to be honest things aren't that much changed! Whether that's good ot not depends on how you think.My daughter is finding it suffocating so her and boyfriend wll probably head off for Liverpool where he comes from soon.Now there's a place for clubs! I think I should put the OP's question to her really she's far more up with things now than I am lol!



Dude, that sounds like an awesome atmosphere. I'm coming over!


----------



## Drac (Feb 6, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> You have a ton of places like that in Ohio, depending on where exactly you live. You have Buffalo Wild Wings all over Ohio, which I highly recommend as they usually have UFC on PPV every month. You have a ton of sports bars and local joints. You have sit down restaurants that have pretty nice bar areas. You of course have your Irish and English style pubs as well in your bigger cities.
> 
> Not all of these exactly model after "English pubs," but they serve the same purpose in that you can get a table, hang with your friends, and generally not be bothered.
> 
> I think that there are plenty of places to go that are not pick up places almost everywhere...


 
I must find all the wrong places..


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Feb 6, 2008)

thardey said:


> Most of the "Goths" here (S. Oregon) are wanna-be's - they don't really have an interest in anything Gothic. In fact, I bet most of them don't even know that there was such a group in history, let alone what they were about. They took that "broad brush" picture and are trying to copy it. It's probably like reading too many cowboy novels and trying to be a cowboy. You can dress like them, and talk like them, but you're embarrassing them.
> 
> I'll bet you could find some honest-to-goodness Goths up in Portland, or Seattle, in fact I've met a couple. They were a lot of fun to hang out with in the basement of this little bar in Portland . . . but that's a story for another time.


 

My favorite T shirt on the subject:

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=W23-1001S


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 6, 2008)

:lol:

No, not _Goth_, *Gothic* .  

Byron, Shelley, hedonism and all that .  

Perhaps we should start an on-line questionaire to see if 21st Century American Goths actually know what movement their 'style' is based on?  Given that Manson seems to be a role-model then probably not .


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> :lol:
> 
> No, not _Goth_, *Gothic* .
> 
> ...



You don't want to do that, it'd just depress you . . .

Especially after they argue with you over it. 

Wait, wait, Shelley was about hedonism?

Considering how much I enjoyed Frankenstein, as well as Stroker's Dracula, maybe I'm Goth, too! (My cowboy friends will _love_ that!)


----------



## Cruentus (Feb 6, 2008)

Drac said:


> I must find all the wrong places..



Damn... next time I'm in Ohio, I'll have to show you how to party!


----------



## Doc_Jude (Feb 6, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am a bartender and I do Karaoke at least once a week. I am constantly hearing women complain that they come to the bar to relax and talk to their friends, and are sick and tired of guys comming up to talk to or hit on them. personaly, I don't hit on someone unless she has exhausted herself with signals, but My question is this...
> Shouldn't the bar be a place to avoid if you don't want men talking to you? Where do you think single men go on a Saturday night?
> Sean



Sounds like some of the ladies 'round your parts are just looking for something else to complain about. All the ladies I know go party at the gay bars when they don't want to be bothered by men, or they stay their happy butts home. 
Maybe they just don't like the guys that are hitting on them, or maybe they like to shoot down men that approach them as a self-esteem booster & just voice such complaints so that they look less like a "B".


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Sounds like some of the ladies 'round your parts are just looking for something else to complain about. All the ladies I know go party at the gay bars when they don't want to be bothered by men, or they stay their happy butts home.
> Maybe they just don't like the guys that are hitting on them, or maybe they like to shoot down men that approach them as a self-esteem booster & just voice such complaints so that they look less like a "B".


Women are not safe at gay bars either. Men aren't stupid. They know women go there and some-very determined yet open minded- heterosexuals will follow.
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2008)

thardey said:


> You don't want to do that, it'd just depress you . . .
> 
> Especially after they argue with you over it.
> 
> ...


Just don't paint your fingernails black or it might spook them.
Sean


----------



## thardey (Feb 7, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Just don't paint your fingernails black or it might spook them.
> Sean



I'll tell them they got smashed while working on my truck. No excuse for the make-up, though.


----------



## Langenschwert (Feb 25, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> In general guys don't go to Top 40 Dance bars unless there are girls, or the possibility of girls involved. Right there is your disconnect. To males dance bars exist solely for the purpose of girls, there is no other reason to have them. If you want to relax with buddies your hitting a lounge or a pub, maybe setting up a poker table, but under no circumstances whatsoever are a group of males to hit a dance bar for a "boys night out" to dance with each other, and reject any and all female advances. It is in the guy code, the law is punishable by complete forfeiture of manhood.


 
True in every resepct.  I would only ever go to a top 40 dance club unless there was a direct and likely possibility of hooking up.  I find dancing to be a pointless activity, and I avoid it whenever possible.  I detest it, really.  Why on earth would I go to such a place if not for the procurement of an intimate encounter?



> Females on the other hand are a strange sort of people, many of which actually think dance bars are a place to go and dance with friends, to perhaps and to dance with friends, not out of hope for romantic encounters afterwards, but because they think it's fun. No one is really sure why, many people believe it was a joke played on men by some higher power.


 
See here's the difference.  If I'm out hanging out with my friends playing pool, seeing some jazz or whatever, and I was getting hit on, that would be absolutely fine with me.  In fact, were I being hit on, I would be beaten to a bloody twitching pulp by my friends if I didn't capitalize on it immediately.  There is no inappropriate place to hit on a guy.  Unless his S.O. is right there with him. 

Best regards,

-Mark


----------

