# A student survives a knife attack...now what?



## Makalakumu (Sep 29, 2012)

Recently, a student of mine was assaulted by a knife wielding villain while jogging.  The man demanded money and my student told him he didn't have any.  Then, the man got mad and attacked.  Using the material I taught, he was able to fend off the man's attacks and escape.  The attacker didn't pursue.  The police have been contacted and a doctor has tended to the wounds, which were minimal...superficial cuts to the outsides of the forearms.

What I'm wondering is how other people have counseled others in the past after an attempt on their life was made.  How did you deal with the emotional aspect?  How did you approach training after that.  To sum it up, **** just got real in the dojo.  Thoughts?


----------



## arnisador (Sep 29, 2012)

Good for him! Similar event happened to me--knife attack, I fended it off, though no injuries--and for me things went on as normal. I'd be inclined to emphasize things worked as planned, this is good material well-trained, and let's keep on training as there are no promises that it'll work next time.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 29, 2012)

Praise him.  He did well.  Let him know that.

Help him be ready for what's going to happen; he WILL experience some PTSD.  Grossman describes it as a puppy, and PTSD attacks as when the puppy comes to visit and slips off the leash.  (I'm paraphrasing many pages or several minutes of discussion here; read *On Killing* if you haven't.)  Let him rehash it verbally, and maybe even physically, because each time he does, he makes the leash stronger and the puppy smaller.  Teach him to breath; it's another tool to keep the puppy under control.


----------



## Sukerkin (Sep 29, 2012)

It's a good question, Maka and not one to which I really have an answer, even tho' I have been through something similar myself.  

I have been in one situation where I was forced (through my own stupidity) to fight and defend against improvised weaponry (a broken bottle).  I have also been in the ludicrous situation, for a civilian Englishman of my vintage at least, of being shot at.

The latter situation was a case of being with the wrong person in the wrong place and it was so out of the blue and unexpected that it really did not have any long term affect on me - I amazed still at my (lack of) reaction to it when it happened but have put it down to it being that such things 'did not happen here'. It was as if it wasn't real.  So I wasn't scared by it then and it doesn't bother me now.

The time I had to fight to refuse an 'impromptu plastic surgery course' tho' is a different matter entirely.  To this day I am wary and overly vigilant when walking in the dark in urban areas when there are still others around.  I also still feel guilt for the harm I inflicted on my attackers.  I know that sounds absurd but the point I am trying to weave towards here is that logic and reason don't come into it with such things.  Different people will react to it in different ways I suspect.  About the only advice that I can offer on it is that talking about it helps.  

For me, describing what you did and why (and what you felt or feel) steps you through the events and, over time, your perspective changes from being a victim of something frightening to one where you realise that your actions determined the outcome i.e. you were not helpless, subject to the violence that others sought to inflict on you, but were capable of purposeful action (with the inference that you could be again should the need arise).


----------



## Egon (Sep 30, 2012)

When I was knife attacked I had emotional problems for next two weeks. I defended (more using verbal and body language then using tehnique). 

Morning after I waked up and cryed. Next two weeks I was in kind of shock and catched myself often havin 3000 yard look. I couldn't sleep at night, instead I analyzed situation over and over or just stared in the dark. Not nice time.

Later I was better and richer for one significant experience.

I was teacher assistant then and for some reason I decided not to tell anyone except teacher about it. My teaching of knife self defense improved alot; I count this experience as 1000 trainings.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 30, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Recently, a student of mine was assaulted by a knife wielding villain while jogging. The man demanded money and my student told him he didn't have any. Then, the man got mad and attacked. Using the material I taught, he was able to fend off the man's attacks and escape. The attacker didn't pursue. The police have been contacted and a doctor has tended to the wounds, which were minimal...superficial cuts to the outsides of the forearms.
> 
> What I'm wondering is how other people have counseled others in the past after an attempt on their life was made. How did you deal with the emotional aspect? How did you approach training after that. To sum it up, **** just got real in the dojo. Thoughts?



Short version: you're not qualified to counsel him. Yes, point out that his training worked. Yes, encourage him to talk about it. And then refer him to a qualified counselor, if he needs counseling.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 30, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Praise him. He did well. Let him know that.
> 
> Help him be ready for what's going to happen; he WILL experience some PTSD. Grossman describes it as a puppy, and PTSD attacks as when the puppy comes to visit and slips off the leash. (I'm paraphrasing many pages or several minutes of discussion here; read *On Killing* if you haven't.) Let him rehash it verbally, and maybe even physically, because each time he does, he makes the leash stronger and the puppy smaller. Teach him to breath; it's another tool to keep the puppy under control.



Ehhh.... MIGHT experience some PTSD. Even PROBABLY WILL. Not WILL. I did not.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 30, 2012)

Egon said:


> When I was knife attacked I had emotional problems for next two weeks. I defended (more using verbal and body language then using tehnique).
> 
> Morning after I waked up and cryed. Next two weeks I was in kind of shock and catched myself often havin 3000 yard look. I couldn't sleep at night, instead I analyzed situation over and over or just stared in the dark. Not nice time.
> 
> ...



That's PTSD right there.  It's perfectly normal after a traumatic experience, and I damn sure hope that being attacked or threatened with a knife is a traumatic experience for you.

PTSD isn't an all-or-nothing; it's a question of do you have a big problem or a little one.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2012)

PTSD can also be brought on because people are expecting it to, we've gone from one extreme to another now, from calling 'battle shock' cowardice and lack of moral fibre we've gone the other way in expecting every incident that happens in our lives to have an emotional shock. I'm not saying we should tell people to 'man up' at all but we also shouldn't expect people to crumple after every nasty or unexpected thing that happens. Shock is normal, but we should also be careful not to make people feel bad about what has happens so that they feel they need some sort of therapy. People are far tougher than many think. Many soldiers do come back from war with PTSD but many more don't. The important thing isn't to dwell on the negative points, he survived that's a cause for celebration and making the most of your life.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 30, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Ehhh.... MIGHT experience some PTSD. Even PROBABLY WILL. Not WILL. I did not.





Tez3 said:


> PTSD can also be brought on because people are expecting it to, we've gone from one extreme to another now, from calling 'battle shock' cowardice and lack of moral fibre we've gone the other way in expecting every incident that happens in our lives to have an emotional shock. I'm not saying we should tell people to 'man up' at all but we also shouldn't expect people to crumple after every nasty or unexpected thing that happens. Shock is normal, but we should also be careful not to make people feel bad about what has happens so that they feel they need some sort of therapy. People are far tougher than many think. Many soldiers do come back from war with PTSD but many more don't. The important thing isn't to dwell on the negative points, he survived that's a cause for celebration and making the most of your life.



I disagree.  Any traumatic experience will generate a *degree *of PTSD.  The difference is that, if we prepare in advance and we deal with the incident properly afterwards, it is a very minor thing.  OK, maybe I'll rephrase and "invent" Post Traumatic Stress Experience rather than Disorder.  It's only a disorder if its influence extends and impairs ordinary life.  For someone properly trained and prepared, and given the right decompression afterwards, the effects are slight and no real problem.  If they haven't been prepared, and they haven't been given the right support afterwards -- it can become a major problem.  And it's important to recognize and recall that it only comes up as the result of unusual or atypical, stressful events.  That's a very subjective thing; as I recall, Dirty Dog's knife experience happened at work, in a situation where he was somewhat prepared for violence to occur.  It's not routine -- but it's on the scale of "it happens."  Same thing for Tez or me; I don't get assaulted every day (and I hope she doesn't, either!) but it does happen.  It's something we've prepared for, something we've probably (I know I have) visualized and trained for.  It's not going to get us the same way that it might someone else.

I've got a partner who was attacked by and Emotionally Disturbed Person (EDP).  It was a nasty, prolonged struggle; he's told me how the guy was reaching for my partner's gun, trying to get it out of the holster.  But he was prepared for the possibility of attack; I can see how it's influenced him, and he handles mental cases differently now (no, he didn't do anything particularly wrong), but because of that preparation, he hasn't had a problem.  But, as Grossman puts it, the puppy does still come to visit occasionally.  He's mentioned periodic dreams, I've seen him pop a little in some calls...


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2012)

What happens is normal shock, it would be an odd person who wasn't shocked after an experience like this but we also have to be careful not to make more of it than it is so that the person does actually not recover as humans are supposed to. 
During the Blitz in London people picked themselves up and got on with life, they weren't prepared for what happened but they coped. it's been the same in manchester and other places that have been bombed since, people cope, it's what people do. We all have coping strategies, the danger today is that with so much focus on therapy we could make people not cope. I have a friend who is a military psychiatric nurse who has regular tours in Afghan, he works often with his American counterparts, he says there are very big differences between how you deal with things and we do. The American professionals believe everyone should have therapy as we all have 'issues', if you think you haven't you are in denial. The British don't start from this premise though it is creeping in sadly. Most of us can get over most things, we are actually strong, by suggesting that they will 'suffer' mentally we are telling people they are weak so of course they do suffer mentally. It's not denying the experience but it's also not magnifying it. 
We tend not to have names for people either ie 'EDP' we call them nutters.


----------



## Sukerkin (Sep 30, 2012)

There is something to that point I do agree, Tez.  The expectation that a person has of how they should react to something has an important bearing on how they actually *do* react.  

This is not to say that some people do not 'break' rather than bend and spring back but if we expect everyone to break from the outset then, perhaps, people will start to lose some of their resilience in adversity.


----------



## Brian King (Sep 30, 2012)

> What I'm wondering is how other people have counseled others in the past after an attempt on their life was made. How did you deal with the emotional aspect? How did you approach training after that. To sum it up, **** just got real in the dojo. Thoughts?




I agree with Dirty Dog refer him to a qualified counselor, if he needs counseling. Yet, there are things that you and others can do as fellow humans with a connection to your student, but, with the understanding that you cannot fix him if he needs fixing. You can offer him and your other students perspective shifts and can help him through issues by addressing those issues during training (addressing the what ifs and should haves and could haves)


With the understanding that there is more to the story than what you have related in the OP, for example joggers are not often targeted for armed robbery (a major felony in most jurisdictions) as joggers do not generally carry that much cash or goods on them to make the crime worth the time. They do get mugged and ambushed as an crime of opportunity, often knocked off the trail or hit over the head or otherwise struck unconscious and their goods are then taken. Joggers are often targeted for rape and by gangs for initiations. 


Sometimes heroes and victims have much in common. On their return to training give them the garbage to take out. Give them the mundane  dirty chores to do. It reinforces that they are normal and that life goes on.


All the training that you do should cover the emotional and psychological aspects of doing the work. Everything from the warm-up to the cool down and all the training in between should have as a part of the focus the emotional and psychological aspects that occur during training (and life, of course) Start on the small things and that gained understanding will soon apply to the larger dramas and conflicts that life inflicts. 


As an example, put the students into the plank or front leaning rest or push-up position. What you call it is mostly unimportant but let them know that this time it is an internal exploration exercise. Their goal is to experience and learn about themselves. Have them hold that position while breathing in through the nose and out thru the mouth. While in the position if some of the students start to move their bodies around it is often a sign that they are starting to feel sorry for themselves, same if the lift one arm to shake it out. When their arms start to shake uncontrollably it is a often sign their breathing is out of balance. If someone quips a joke and others laugh more than what is called for, it is often the unconscious need to break the tension that they are feeling inside. When they have to give up have them continue but now from their knees but still in the push-up. Ask them to monitor what they are feeling both physiologically and psychologically while they are doing the work. After the majority have given up have them do a bunch of push-ups right away. No rest time. Their bodies need movement give it to them in push-ups. Now they are breathing hard have them hold their breaths (after an exhale or partial exhale not on an inhale) and do five push-ups. After the push-ups the are allowed to breathe to regain their breathing, then again holding after an exhale do ten push-ups and again recuperate and restore. Then ask them to do twenty five push-ups while holding their breath. After they do this again restore. Then have them again do ten push-ups while holding their breath. As they restore their breathing this time have them sit comfortably and monitor what the are feeling while they restore their breathing and internal state. Once they are mostly restored, lead them into nice comfortable deep inhales and exhales as a group (do not forget the pauses between the exhales and inhales)Talk softly during this exercise, this is not the time for drill sergeant tone. Get the students calm and to a neutral state. Once there have them focus on that state, the calm neutral state. Spend a few minutes getting there. All the physical work and all the breathing work is one way of reaching that state as is prayer, meditation, and imitation and a few other methods. Now, have them do a few more push-ups. The number is not important, but, for this exercise remind the goal- an internal exercise to learn to recognize their internal state(s). Have them focus on that calm neutral internal state and do some push-ups. Let them feel the difference their internal state makes while doing the work. 


Have the students circle up sitting or laying on the ground and have them talk a bit a bout the exercise. No right or wrong answer. By talking about the exercise immediately after doing it they get a chance to once again relive it and with others talking about the exercise they get a chance to see it through others eyes.


In the drill above the work is the internal focus on maintaining a calm neutral state while doing push-ups although many will say that the work is the push-up. It is ok, all are training at their own pace and meeting their own needs. Life is not about doing push-ups and other activities, it is about living as a good human. By learning to recognize a calm neutral inner state and when that state is lost, and by learning how to regain that state, this is a good step in fulfilling the potential that most have within. How much easier to practice when doing push-ups or kata or sparring or competing than to come from behind after a traumatic event.


Gah, a couple of neighbors are shooting and a someone else is cutting with a chainsaw. Down the road they are having lumberjack contests and across the sound there is a Systema four day seminar going on. Have a tree to trim myself and then head for the seminar stopping by and watching the chainsaw carving competitions. Life is good- remind your student of this.


One last note Makalakumu, before working with your student you must get your own head right. Do some push-ups or what ever so that your own state is in the calm neutral place before you interact or even plan what that interaction should be.


Good luck
Warmest Regards
Brian King


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 30, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Short version: you're not qualified to counsel him. Yes, point out that his training worked. Yes, encourage him to talk about it. And then refer him to a qualified counselor, if he needs counseling.



Actually, in my profession, I "counsel" people all of the time. If it ever got to the point where it went beyond my abilities, I have specific training that allows me to recognize that. But I do get your point and it's well noted in general.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 30, 2012)

I survived a knife attack when I was 17 as well. For me, I made a series of dumb decisions that landed me in trouble. For my student, it was truly random violence. But, I think I can still relate. That attack actually was a benchmark in my life. It was a time where I truly ceased to be a child and I began to grow into manhood. I see the same kind of changes in my student and I'd like to cultivate that. 

That said, PTSD is a worry. I didn't experience it. My thinking was that if I never do something so dumb again, I'll be safe from this kind of violence. Random violence is different though. We'll see. I've worked with other victims of random violence and many struggle with feelings of powerlessness or a "why me" attitude. 

My student felt a lot of fear where he was living and actually moved back to Hawaii because of it. So, I know this experience had a profound effect on him.


----------

