# Lost Hyungs



## Master Ken

Hi,

I read somewhere a while ago that there are two TSD hyungs that have sadly been lost in time because they where not passed on to trusted students or the instructors suddenly passed away.

can anyone shred some light on this please and and any relevant information that might be out in cyberland.

Pil Seung

Master Ken


----------



## Lynne

Are the two lost forms supposed to be Chil-Sung forms?


----------



## Yossarian

Was there not one called Hwa Sun? im sure ive read this somewhere. Also So Rim Jang Kwon and Tae Guk Ki seem to be very rare and no one seems to know the correct versions.


----------



## Master Ken

Hi All,

That's correct.. So Rim Jang Kwon and Tae Guk Ki.. that does ring a bell.

Thanks


Ken


----------



## MBuzzy

I've also heard of a series of 10 hyung that were supposedly only taught to Koreans.....don't know the names though.


----------



## JWLuiza

So Rim Jang Kwan is, AFAIK, a Shaolin Long Fist Form of Intermediate Difficulty.  The other is Yang Style Short Form Tai Chi.  So Rim Jang Kwan is the holy grail of traditional TSD.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja

JWLuiza said:


> So Rim Jang Kwan is, AFAIK, a Shaolin Long Fist Form of Intermediate Difficulty.  The other is Yang Style Short Form Tai Chi.  So Rim Jang Kwan is the holy grail of traditional TSD.



...I must learn this form....heh...things like that pique my interest.


----------



## Master Ken

If So Rim Jang Kwan is a Shaolin Long Fist form and Tae Guk Ki a Tai Chi form, do they go by another name??.

With respect to the 10 hyungs taught to Korean only, I never heard of this at all, where did you hear about this.

Ken


----------



## MBuzzy

I first heard about the forms on here I think, but my instructor mentioned them as well.  He couldn't remember the name though.


----------



## JWLuiza

Master Ken said:


> If So Rim Jang Kwan is a Shaolin Long Fist form and Tae Guk Ki a Tai Chi form, do they go by another name??.
> 
> With respect to the 10 hyungs taught to Korean only, I never heard of this at all, where did you hear about this.
> 
> Ken



To answer Lynne and Yossarian:  The Chil Sun and Hwa Sun hyung are not lost.  They are taught by the SBDMDK school in the US and the World MDK worldwide.

Ken,

Yes, Tae Guk Kwan (not ki from what I have seen) is just called Yang Style 88-move Tai Chi or something like that.  SRJK probably has a chinese name, but that didn't make it down from Hwang Ki who brought it back from China.


----------



## MBuzzy

JWLuiza said:


> To answer Lynne and Yossarian: The Chil Sun and Hwa Sun hyung are not lost. They are taught by the SBDMDK school in the US and the World MDK worldwide.


 
Hwa Sun is actually published in a few TSD and SBD books.  The Chil Sungs though, were copyrighted by the US Soo Bahk Do Federation and are only partially published.  The first 3 are easy to find within the USSBDF but you have to go GM Pak's books to find the next two and to the best of my knowledge, you have to be very high ranking and close to GM H.C. Hwang to learn Chil Sung 6 and 7 - but they're out there.  Same problem with the Yuk Ro series of forms.


----------



## Master Ken

JWLuiza said:


> To answer Lynne and Yossarian:  The Chil Sun and Hwa Sun hyung are not lost.  They are taught by the SBDMDK school in the US and the World MDK worldwide.
> 
> Ken,
> 
> Yes, Tae Guk Kwan (not ki from what I have seen) is just called Yang Style 88-move Tai Chi or something like that.  SRJK probably has a chinese name, but that didn't make it down from Hwang Ki who brought it back from China.


Excellent, thanks. 

After my school broke with the WTSDA I went back to the way GM HK taught his hyungs, trying to get back to the source.


----------



## JWLuiza

Master Ken said:


> Excellent, thanks.
> 
> After my school broke with the WTSDA I went back to the way GM HK taught his hyungs, trying to get back to the source.


Great!  They probably resemble early shotokan/shito-ryu versions if you go back to how he originally practiced them.  The MDK has VERY different body mechanics than they did in the 50s/60s.  It's great having you on the board!


----------



## Muwubu16858

Here are 3 major chinese forms Hwang Kee learned and taught to few of his highest students, on of which was named Oh Sae Joon.

So Rim Jang Kwon (Shaolin long fist) is an intermediate form used in several chinese martial arts, including Tan Tui 12 Road, which is the style Hwang Kee learned in China(as he pronounced it, Dam Toi Ship Ee Ro(Dam Toi for short). Hwang Kee only learned 1 Tan tui form, along with the So Rim Jang Kwon form. He also learned one Yang style Tai Chi (Tae Geuk Kwon) form, which was the highest level form in Moo Duk Kwan until GM Hwang began to reformat his system and teach Chil Sung's, Yuk Ro's and Hwa Sun hyung. But a little secret, I've looked at alot of the new forms, and although Hwang Kee says his influence is Moo Yei Tobo Dang Ji(korean text circa 1700's), the newer forms by Hwang Kee are very much influenced by Tan Tui and Tai Chi Chuan.


----------



## JWLuiza

Muwubu16858 said:


> Here are 3 major chinese forms Hwang Kee learned and taught to few of his highest students, on of which was named Oh Sae Joon.
> 
> So Rim Jang Kwon (Shaolin long fist) is an intermediate form used in several chinese martial arts, including Tan Tui 12 Road, which is the style Hwang Kee learned in China(as he pronounced it, Dam Toi Ship Ee Ro(Dam Toi for short). Hwang Kee only learned 1 Tan tui form, along with the So Rim Jang Kwon form. He also learned one Yang style Tai Chi (Tae Geuk Kwon) form, which was the highest level form in Moo Duk Kwan until GM Hwang began to reformat his system and teach Chil Sung's, Yuk Ro's and Hwa Sun hyung. But a little secret, I've looked at alot of the new forms, and although Hwang Kee says his influence is Moo Yei Tobo Dang Ji(korean text circa 1700's), the newer forms by Hwang Kee are very much influenced by Tan Tui and Tai Chi Chuan.


I don't think that's too big of a secret   But some of the moves in Hwa Sun are pulled from the drawings in the MYTDJ.  But obviously the Yuk Rho look very similar to the Tan Tui I'm learning right now.


----------



## Master Ken

Muwubu16858 said:


> Here are 3 major chinese forms Hwang Kee learned and taught to few of his highest students, on of which was named Oh Sae Joon.
> 
> So Rim Jang Kwon (Shaolin long fist) is an intermediate form used in several chinese martial arts, including Tan Tui 12 Road, which is the style Hwang Kee learned in China(as he pronounced it, Dam Toi Ship Ee Ro(Dam Toi for short). Hwang Kee only learned 1 Tan tui form, along with the So Rim Jang Kwon form. He also learned one Yang style Tai Chi (Tae Geuk Kwon) form, which was the highest level form in Moo Duk Kwan until GM Hwang began to reformat his system and teach Chil Sung's, Yuk Ro's and Hwa Sun hyung. But a little secret, I've looked at alot of the new forms, and although Hwang Kee says his influence is Moo Yei Tobo Dang Ji(korean text circa 1700's), the newer forms by Hwang Kee are very much influenced by Tan Tui and Tai Chi Chuan.



Thanks Michael, that is a lot of info for me to carry on researching into these forms. Now I just have to try and get some footage of these forms.

Respectfully

Master Ken


----------



## Master Ken

Muwubu16858 said:


> Here are 3 major chinese forms Hwang Kee learned and taught to few of his highest students, on of which was named Oh Sae Joon.
> 
> So Rim Jang Kwon (Shaolin long fist) is an intermediate form used in several chinese martial arts, including Tan Tui 12 Road, which is the style Hwang Kee learned in China(as he pronounced it, Dam Toi Ship Ee Ro(Dam Toi for short). Hwang Kee only learned 1 Tan tui form, along with the So Rim Jang Kwon form. He also learned one Yang style Tai Chi (Tae Geuk Kwon) form, which was the highest level form in Moo Duk Kwan until GM Hwang began to reformat his system and teach Chil Sung's, Yuk Ro's and Hwa Sun hyung. But a little secret, I've looked at alot of the new forms, and although Hwang Kee says his influence is Moo Yei Tobo Dang Ji(korean text circa 1700's), the newer forms by Hwang Kee are very much influenced by Tan Tui and Tai Chi Chuan.


So there are now three forms???

Oh Sae Joon
So Rim Jang Kwon
Tae Geuk Kwon


----------



## Master Ken

Master Ken said:


> So there are now three forms???
> 
> Oh Sae Joon
> So Rim Jang Kwon
> Tae Geuk Kwon


Opps got that so wrong..

'Oh Sae Joon' is a person....


----------



## MBuzzy

JWLuiza said:


> some of the moves in Hwa Sun are pulled from the drawings in the MYTDJ. But obviously the Yuk Rho look very similar to the Tan Tui I'm learning right now.


 


Muwubu16858 said:


> But a little secret, I've looked at alot of the new forms, and although Hwang Kee says his influence is Moo Yei Tobo Dang Ji(korean text circa 1700's), the newer forms by Hwang Kee are very much influenced by Tan Tui and Tai Chi Chuan.


 
There is definately a very heavy Chinese influence in the Chil Sungs and Yuk Ros, but they also borrow pretty heavily from some of the Japanese and more traditional forms.  They were initially intended to completely replace the Japanese based forms.


----------



## Chizikunbo

There are supposed to be two lost hyungs of the original Tang Soo Do of Hwang Kee KJN. They are SO RIM JANG KWON (Shaolin Long Fist) and TAE KEUK KWON (Tai Chi Chuan). So Rim Jang Kwan is said to be a begging to intermidiate level long fist form. 
The interesting part is that neither of them are lost. Both are still in the original printing, in that of Soo Bahk Do Dae Kahm. TKK even has photos. SRJK has a full description. The SRJK was translated thanks to GM Charles Ferraro of the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan...it is just in somewhat archaic terms, and needs to be retranslated into physical movements.
Tae Keuk Kwon has long been identified by Master Henry Murphy as the Yang Style 88 form...this is actually a two man set one half being defensive, and the other offensive. The odd thing is that the creation of this form dates quite sometime _after_ KJN Hwang Kee's time in China with his master Yang Kuk Jin (Yang Jeng Kou). Hwang Kee only demoed one half of the form in his SBD Dae Kahm, so it is presumable he only taught one half.



MBuzzy said:


> I've also heard of a series of 10 hyung that were supposedly only taught to Koreans.....don't know the names though.



This is indeed true, the forms are called "Ship Dahn Kum", they have not been taught in the US...oddly the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho hyungs were _first_ taught in the US...There is a book in Korean entitled 'Soo Bahk Do' that has all 10 Ship Dahn Kum forms, along with all 6 Yuk Rho, and the Hwa Sun hyung with descriptions and photos...

There are actually 2 versions of Hwa Sun, but thats another story, reportedly the actual hyung was just recently taught by KJN H.C. Hwang to the USSBDMDKF Chil Dan candidates. 

All together GM Hwang Kee created 24 forms, 7 Chil Sung, 6 Yuk Rho 1 Hwa Sun, and 10 Ship Dan Kum.

--josh


----------



## Chizikunbo

> He also learned one Yang style Tai Chi (Tae Geuk Kwon) form, which was the highest level form in Moo Duk Kwan until GM Hwang began to reformat his system and teach Chil Sung's, Yuk Ro's and Hwa Sun hyung. But a little secret, I've looked at alot of the new forms, and although Hwang Kee says his influence is Moo Yei Tobo Dang Ji(korean text circa 1700's), the newer forms by Hwang Kee are very much influenced by Tan Tui and Tai Chi Chuan.



Yes indeed, originally the Tae Keuk Kwon was paldan (8th dan) material, but somtime later it became eedan (2nd dan) material, before disappearing completely.

The Hwa Sun hyung is supposed to be GM Hwang Kee's translation of the Kwon Bop chapter of the Mu Ye Dobo Tongji. The Chil Sung forms are supposed to be a culmination of all of GM Hwang Kee's knowledge. The Ship Dan Kum is _supposed_ to contain vital point strikes that cause delayed effects...that I am not so sure about...Though in the Kwon Bop section of the MYDBTJ is does discuss vital points being used to cause things like deafness, muteness, death etc.

--josh


----------



## Master Ken

Chizikunbo said:


> There are supposed to be two lost hyungs of the original Tang Soo Do of Hwang Kee KJN. They are SO RIM JANG KWON (Shaolin Long Fist) and TAE KEUK KWON (Tai Chi Chuan). So Rim Jang Kwan is said to be a begging to intermidiate level long fist form.
> The interesting part is that neither of them are lost. Both are still in the original printing, in that of Soo Bahk Do Dae Kahm. TKK even has photos. SRJK has a full description. The SRJK was translated thanks to GM Charles Ferraro of the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan...it is just in somewhat archaic terms, and needs to be retranslated into physical movements.
> Tae Keuk Kwon has long been identified by Master Henry Murphy as the Yang Style 88 form...this is actually a two man set one half being defensive, and the other offensive. The odd thing is that the creation of this form dates quite sometime _after_ KJN Hwang Kee's time in China with his master Yang Kuk Jin (Yang Jeng Kou). Hwang Kee only demoed one half of the form in his SBD Dae Kahm, so it is presumable he only taught one half.
> 
> 
> 
> This is indeed true, the forms are called "Ship Dahn Kum", they have not been taught in the US...oddly the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho hyungs were _first_ taught in the US...There is a book in Korean entitled 'Soo Bahk Do' that has all 10 Ship Dahn Kum forms, along with all 6 Yuk Rho, and the Hwa Sun hyung with descriptions and photos...
> 
> There are actually 2 versions of Hwa Sun, but thats another story, reportedly the actual hyung was just recently taught by KJN H.C. Hwang to the USSBDMDKF Chil Dan candidates.
> 
> All together GM Hwang Kee created 24 forms, 7 Chil Sung, 6 Yuk Rho 1 Hwa Sun, and 10 Ship Dan Kum.
> 
> --josh


This is fantastic, really helps me. I have both volumes from GM HK on hyungs/ advanced hyung as demonstrated by GM HC Hwang. Is there a site/contact to which I may get a detailed discription of how SRJK and TKK are performed.


----------



## Chizikunbo

Master Ken said:


> This is fantastic, really helps me. I have both volumes from GM HK on hyungs/ advanced hyung as demonstrated by GM HC Hwang. Is there a site/contact to which I may get a detailed discription of how SRJK and TKK are performed.



Please PM me...


----------



## MBuzzy

Master Ken, do you have a copy of the Hangul Volume 2 (The one that contains the Ship Dan Kum)?


----------



## Master Ken

MBuzzy said:


> Master Ken, do you have a copy of the Hangul Volume 2 (The one that contains the Ship Dan Kum)?


Yes....


----------



## Chizikunbo

Master Ken said:


> Yes....


Nice,
I have not been able to find this one...I dont think the fed is selling it...


----------



## Master Ken

Chizikunbo said:


> Nice,
> I have not been able to find this one...I dont think the fed is selling it...


I got it a couple of years ago from ebay...


----------



## MBuzzy

It is out of print from the Federation.  I've heard that you can get it in Korea, but I just got back and I looked all over the place.  

I scour E-bay for it frequently...but it is never up there.  I'm hoping to find it on a rare or used book site or something.


----------



## mtabone

MBuzzy said:


> Hwa Sun is actually published in a few TSD and SBD books. The Chil Sungs though, were copyrighted by the US Soo Bahk Do Federation and are only partially published. The first 3 are easy to find within the USSBDF but you have to go GM Pak's books to find the next two and to the best of my knowledge, you have to be very high ranking and close to GM H.C. Hwang to learn Chil Sung 6 and 7 - but they're out there. Same problem with the Yuk Ro series of forms.


 
MBuzzy,

We in the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan have all 7 Chil Sung Forms and all 6 Yuk Rho forms. They are out there more then you think they are, book form or otherwise. But you do not have to be close to GM H.C. Hwang to learn them. All you need to do to see Chil Sung Yuk Rho is youtube "Mi Guk Kwan" and look at SBN Bergers do an excellent job with this challenging form. 

Look at it and tell me what you think

TANG SOO!!! 

Mike Tabone


----------



## Chizikunbo

Actually Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan Association Inc. (www.tsdkmgk.com) has some high quality DVDs available for purchase...that document several chil sung as well as hwa sun hyung in the 10th gup - 3rd dan DVD's. 

SBN Tabone was talking about these videos:

Here is SBN Jim Savidge doing Chil Sung Sa Rho

Here is SBN Anthony Manchisi doing Chil Sung Oh Rho

and here is SBN James Bergers doing Chil Sung Yuk Rho

take care,
--josh


----------



## JT_the_Ninja

I found this video of "O Sip Sa Bu:" 




Accurate, for anyone who might know it? Looks pretty cool, from what I can see of it.


----------



## JWLuiza

Josh should recognize the performer.  

Yes that is O Sip Sa bu hyung.  I perform Gojushiho Dai, very similar.

KJN Ferraro of the Mi Guk Kwan is the performer.


----------



## Makalakumu

I don't know guys, I see these forms being performed for permance sake and I have to wonder at their use.  In fact, I'm finding this kind of frustrating because I want to see something different...


----------



## Chizikunbo

upnorthkyosa said:


> I don't know guys, I see these forms being performed for permance sake and I have to wonder at their use.  In fact, I'm finding this kind of frustrating because I want to see something different...


Hello all,
yep that video is of Grandmaster Charles Ferraro of the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan Association...great video!

As far as the hyungs we should never look at Tang Soo Do as a performance art...The competition should always be secondary...first and foremost we should be developing pugilistic skill...everything else follows...The contents of that side ARE the form...it just needs to be read..understanding forms is like learning a new language. I think the reason that we dont see that side in videos so often is because it is very varied, and not standardized. There is *no* right exact way to interpret a movement, there are many good ways, and a few bad...but we must always remember the first and foremost reason of practicing a form, and also remember that these videos _are_ the secondary, aesthetic/competitive side.

take care,
--josh


----------



## Makalakumu

Josh, I think that when you look at the classical tsd hyungs and attempt to compare what is being done in these videos, you might have more of an insight in what I'm saying.  

The bottom line is that I want to see how all of these changes and innovations come together to create a fighting art.  I want to see how the performance of these hyungs increases ones ability at pugilism.  I can come up with lots of things that I think they might be teaching, but that is not the same as getting it from the source...


----------



## Chizikunbo

upnorthkyosa said:


> Josh, I think that when you look at the classical tsd hyungs and attempt to compare what is being done in these videos, you might have more of an insight in what I'm saying.
> 
> The bottom line is that I want to see how all of these changes and innovations come together to create a fighting art.  I want to see how the performance of these hyungs increases ones ability at pugilism.  I can come up with lots of things that I think they might be teaching, but that is not the same as getting it from the source...


Hello,
I hear ya...For just that reason I took up the study of Oyata lineage Ryukyu Kempo 6 years ago (and still study a bit today)...Once I saw what they did I was enthralled, and pretty much devoted all of my time to it...eventually I found myself back where I was, KMA's. The principles are there in the TSD forms, the problem being that KJN Hwang Kee did not have the ability to go back to the source, he was forced to start in the middle with Funakoshi's material, with no retrospection into the true nature of the art...So he took what he had and ran with it. What I see, is that we need to get back to the roots (i.e. Okinawa) to get the foundational principles, then evaluate what we are doing, and why we are doing it...On an interesting note, I have found that Hwang Kee KJN's work is much more philosophical in nature than the Okinawan counterparts...Both aspects (like um and yang) are essential. To find out how practicing a form increases pugilistic ability we need to look to the origins again...why were these forms founded, what is the Okinawan view, and how does the create harmony or disharmony with what I am doing, and how can I use both to become a better practicioner? I would _highly_ recommend the book "Ryu Te no Michi" (Way of Classical Ryukyu Hands) by Taika Oyata (www.ryu-te-supplies.com) to shed ALOT of light on this subject...the book is a little pricey, but its like the lamp that can guide you on your journey, it did for me anyway.
Also reading Hwang Kee's SBDTSD Vol. 1 shed light on this too...I remember the section describing how we need to bring realism to every movement (give every movement meaning and purpose)...that is a huge subject, that can shed a ton more light on why we practice forms...Its all hard to describe via this medium lol but FWIW,
--josh


----------

