# Extending the knee past vertical



## pete (Mar 18, 2004)

i read a question posed on another board regarding whether it is acceptable to have your knee extend beyond vertical.  i was surprised to see responses indicating it was.  I thought it would create knee strain and a weak posture.

then again, i do not practice one of the major style, but a 3rd generation derivitive of Chen (with a little Bagua influence).  Bringing the knee past vertical is not practiced in this style... is it used in yours?

pete


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## lvwhitebir (Mar 18, 2004)

It's not practiced that way in my style (Yang) on most moves.  Exercise physiologists would say that it leads to knee problems later in life.  Is there a particular posture you're asking about?  I would think you have no choice in some moves, such as Snake Creeps Down for instance.

WhiteBirch


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## Dronak (Mar 22, 2004)

I suppose it could be different with different styles or something, but I always heard/read that you're not supposed to put your knee past your toe.  I think doing so does put extra stress on your knees that you don't want to have.  As lvwhitebir said, you may not have a choice in certain moves, but AFAIK in general you don't want to put the knee past the toe in tai chi.  (Actually, we follow the same general rule in the kung fu I was studying.)


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## pete (Mar 23, 2004)

Dronak said:
			
		

> As lvwhitebir said, you may not have a choice in certain moves, but AFAIK in general you don't want to put the knee past the toe in tai chi.



in the style i practice, the knee doesn't extend beyond the toe... even in the lower postures.  we also keep both knees bent at all times, and do not raise the heels off the ground when lowering our posture.... 

why wouldn't you have a choice is some moves? Are there other things happenning that relieve the knee stress or make it structurally stronger?

thanks,
pete


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## lvwhitebir (Mar 23, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> why wouldn't you have a choice is some moves?



The way I've trained and seen others doing Snake Creeps Down, your bottom is over your heel on the back leg.  If you go low (your thigh and calf nearly or do touch) your knee will most likely go beyond your toes.  That's what I meant by not having a choice.

WhiteBirch


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## Taiji fan (May 29, 2004)

The knee can move past the vertical.........not in the end frame but while on the move, durning the changing frame the knee can travel past the vertical.  In fact to balance during the step it has too. This does not cause knee damage, holding and end frame over the toe can and and overly bend back leg and 'broken' back will do the same job.
In empty step the angle is also more acute.


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## 7starmantis (May 31, 2004)

I don't think you should allow your knee to pass your toes even in transition. From a medical standpoint you put some real stress on your knee doing that. Also, in snake in the grass, you have to allow your hips to push backwards, its hard, but your foot has to be completely flat, that way your knee wont go over your toes.

7sm


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## pete (Jun 2, 2004)

i'm baaaack!  well i guess i started this mess, and ended up with mostly what i expected.  some styles, like the one i practice avoid bringing the knee past the vertical of the toe... while others seem to encourage it, either as unavoidable in certain movements or only during transition.  what i'm not sure of, is whether this is the intention of those other styles, or an mistake by some pratitioners...

i do feel it does put unnecessary stress on the knee, and is not anatomically correct.  i tend to agree with 7sm, that the use of the hips is paramount in reducing the incidence of knee injuries.  

i have spoken with several people who said that they can't practice tai chi because of their existing knee conditions and the strain caused by tai chi movements.   i am fortunate not to have any knee-related problems, but also feel that my tai chi uses whole body unity to avoid any extended focus or concentration on any particular joint or muscle.  

therefore, i'd like to invite those with knee problems to give tai chi another chance... but before i do, i would like to hear more from ohter experiences...

thanks,
pete


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## lvwhitebir (Jun 2, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> i have spoken with several people who said that they can't practice tai chi because of their existing knee conditions and the strain caused by tai chi movements.



That's surprising.  I think they just need to reduce their movement to reduce the strain for a while until the problem is corrected.  I have had a few students use Tai Chi as rehab after ACL surgery with no problems.  I just made sure they didn't go too low (to much of a bend in the knee) or kick to high (too much support from the knee).

WhiteBirch


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## 7starmantis (Jun 2, 2004)

I've spoken with many physical therapist who are now using tai chi or tai chi related excersises for therapy. Having an existing knee problem shouldn't automatically stop them from practicing tai chi. If done correctly, tai chi can have quite a positive effect on rehab of the injury, but must be done correctly.

7sm


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## Sailor (Jun 9, 2004)

It probably depends on the style. 
As far of the knee not going out past the toes I've always heard that used in relation to the front leg. I have seen some styles, Wu and Ng that break that rule but not sure if that's a trait of the style or school.

In my personnal experience with Tai Chi I've found that when done with proper structure the strength of the knees and of the lower back should improve. With the proper structure there should be no need to end up with Tai Chi knee.


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## vincehardy3 (Jun 9, 2004)

I would like to introduce another point. We can agree that extending the knee past the toe can produce irritation/pain in the joint, and over a period of time it can do some damage. But, for the martial artist what are the ramifications of extending the knee past the toe during a confrontation?

The three internals (Taiqi, Bagua, and Xingyi) utilize the same postures, but execute them according to their separate distinct principles. But, one principle that is utilized by all three is the idea of proper body alignment. For instance, San Ti posture of Xingyi is used in the other internal systems. The knee doesn't extend past the toe, and it doesn't lag behind the heel. The knee is good between the vertical plain between the heel and the toe.

San Ti posture is used as a on-guard fighting posture. If the knee is behind the heel or past the toe the practitioner will have to shift their weight either to the front or back to execute a technique. This shifting will telegraph your intentions to your opponent, and you run the risk of getting popped.  Proper body alignment will make your technique very strong.  You should be able to align your elbows with your knees in San Ti if you are positioned correctly.  What will this do?  This alignment will protect your vital areas, plus it will help you in the defense of your centerline.

Just another perspective,


Vince


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## mwelch (Nov 24, 2005)

I have studied T'ai Chi Ch'uan since 1970.  For the last 15 or so years with Master Yu Cheng-Hsiang, a Taiwan student of Cheng Man-Ching.  I am convinced now that if you do keep your weight distributed over the kidney point of both feet, you MUST go "past vertical."  If you do not go that far, you are double-weighted.  I have been following this for years and years, and I have no knee trouble, have never witnessed an injury caused by this action, and am convinced that it is just another example of the "orthodoxy" that is mutilating this great art and watering it down into an "exercise" for senior citizens.


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