# Is Humility Necessary in Martial Arts?



## Jenna

I think it is a stupid question to ask, yes?  Of course humility is necessary in MA.  Without humility we would feel an excessive conceit that would not be reined in until we suffered damage to our ego and perhaps more dangerously, to our very safety.  

Humility is a virtue. I think true humility is a beautiful and powerful trait in all that have it.

Those who do not demonstrate humility on the other hand, we have trouble with in our teaching.  When our student has no humility the lessons are lost on them and then we are talking into to a hollow head.  They are vessels filled to give only a bad reflection upon us as teachers.

Yet I think there is perhaps another lesson?

In certain aspects of our martial art, humility is necessary.  However, when an attitude of humility and deference is demanded through the environment and becomes assimiliated into the consciousness of the student then that is sometimes counterproductive and frequently contradictory in teaching fighting skills.

I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary.  Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson 

I would say that in a martial arts fighting environment then conceit is necessary.  Any humility in the fight will give your opponent advantage.

I would say that it is up to the teacher to teach this lesson.  It is up to the student to adopt this teaching.

I would say to close that the humility we must demonstrate in learning should be commensurate with the significance (to us) of the teacher who is teaching and the lesson being taught.  And but I would say conversely that for the ultimate adversary, then the ultimate conceit is mandated.

Perhaps I have not thought this through correctly.  What is your opinion of this?  I am grateful to receive your thoughts.  Thank you.


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## Bill Mattocks

In my case, humility comes with the territory.  I only say I'm great at things I'm great at, and martial arts is a long way from being one of them.


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## MA-Caver

The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.


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## clfsean

It depends.

In CMAs, humility will get you beat about the head & neck area until you loose consciousness & possibly your life. The CMA's traditionally don't have a _"-do"_ style outlook on MAs. The idea is to beat the opponent onto the ground & then finish. Preferrably, gutting them or running them through before the beating with hands became necessary. The majority of "accomplished martial artists" in fuedal China weren't nice people. They weren't "honorable". They were bandits or caravan guards or professional soliders. They had a singular job to do, humility be damned. I'm not talking about professional officers or guard shop owners, I mean the grunts out doing it. 

As far as martial monks from Shaolin or Wudang... much like "the Church" in Western history, shelter was given to people who had been on the loosing side of power struggles, large or small. They took their skills with them & added to or refined existing skills in the temples. However, they still weren't nice people. They "learned" it in their new lives as they were. 

The "honorable thief" or "knight errant" stories of chivalry in China is just that, stories. Sure there were always exceptions to the rule as with everything, but the wu xia stories are just that. 

Humility from a CMA perspective is something that the upper class or scholarly class had time for. But when it came to day to day substance survival (middle class & below... gee, sounds familiar & current, doesn't it) or fighting & dying time, there's no room for that. Blink... you're dead. No room no time for that.


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## Cyriacus

Is it necessary?
Absolutely not.

If You can claim to be damn good at what Youre doing, and You can put out to prove it, You can damn well brag about it. So can the Gent who can pommel You.

My point is, Humility is a good thing. Or even just restraining Yourself from bragging and such.
Its not necessary, but its good.


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## dancingalone

Jenna said:


> I think it is a stupid question to ask, yes?  Of course humility is necessary in MA.  Without humility we would feel an excessive conceit that would not be reined in until we suffered damage to our ego and perhaps more dangerously, to our very safety.
> 
> Humility is a virtue. I think true humility is a beautiful and powerful trait in all that have it.
> 
> Those who do not demonstrate humility on the other hand, we have trouble with in our teaching.  When our student has no humility the lessons are lost on them and then we are talking into to a hollow head.  They are vessels filled to give only a bad reflection upon us as teachers.
> 
> Yet I think there is perhaps another lesson?
> 
> In certain aspects of our martial art, humility is necessary.  However, when an attitude of humility and deference is demanded through the environment and becomes assimiliated into the consciousness of the student then that is sometimes counterproductive and frequently contradictory in teaching fighting skills.
> 
> I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary.  Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson
> 
> I would say that in a martial arts fighting environment then conceit is necessary.  Any humility in the fight will give your opponent advantage.
> 
> I would say that it is up to the teacher to teach this lesson.  It is up to the student to adopt this teaching.
> 
> I would say to close that the humility we must demonstrate in learning should be commensurate with the significance (to us) of the teacher who is teaching and the lesson being taught.  And but I would say conversely that for the ultimate adversary, then the ultimate conceit is mandated.
> 
> Perhaps I have not thought this through correctly.  What is your opinion of this?  I am grateful to receive your thoughts.  Thank you.



What a great post.  In karate, I like to say to my brown belts it is their job to get good and arrogant.  And then it is my job to deflate them sufficiently to where they can repeat the process again.


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## Chris Parker

Jenna said:


> I think it is a stupid question to ask, yes?  Of course humility is necessary in MA.  Without humility we would feel an excessive conceit that would not be reined in until we suffered damage to our ego and perhaps more dangerously, to our very safety.
> 
> Humility is a virtue. I think true humility is a beautiful and powerful trait in all that have it.
> 
> Those who do not demonstrate humility on the other hand, we have trouble with in our teaching.  When our student has no humility the lessons are lost on them and then we are talking into to a hollow head.  They are vessels filled to give only a bad reflection upon us as teachers.
> 
> Yet I think there is perhaps another lesson?
> 
> In certain aspects of our martial art, humility is necessary.  However, when an attitude of humility and deference is demanded through the environment and becomes assimiliated into the consciousness of the student then that is sometimes counterproductive and frequently contradictory in teaching fighting skills.
> 
> I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary.  Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson
> 
> I would say that in a martial arts fighting environment then conceit is necessary.  Any humility in the fight will give your opponent advantage.
> 
> I would say that it is up to the teacher to teach this lesson.  It is up to the student to adopt this teaching.
> 
> I would say to close that the humility we must demonstrate in learning should be commensurate with the significance (to us) of the teacher who is teaching and the lesson being taught.  And but I would say conversely that for the ultimate adversary, then the ultimate conceit is mandated.
> 
> Perhaps I have not thought this through correctly.  What is your opinion of this?  I am grateful to receive your thoughts.  Thank you.



Ah, this could turn into a huge discussion on the importance and place of reiho in Japanese martial traditions, but I'll keep that back for the minute (unless someone else starts in on it...). To the point, though, humility can be a great boon, and a wonderful side effect of martial training, but it's not necessary. It can, however, make the martial training more enjoyable, and safer all round. Sadly, though, no, it's not necessary. Just desired. Musashi, for instance, has been described many ways, including that he became convinced he was unbeatable, and spent the rest of his time proving that... that's not exactly what I'd call a good example of humility, but a great example of a swordsman!



clfsean said:


> It depends.
> 
> In CMAs, humility will get you beat about the head & neck area until you loose consciousness & possibly your life. The CMA's traditionally don't have a _"-do"_ style outlook on MAs. The idea is to beat the opponent onto the ground & then finish. Preferrably, gutting them or running them through before the beating with hands became necessary. The majority of "accomplished martial artists" in fuedal China weren't nice people. They weren't "honorable". They were bandits or caravan guards or professional soliders. They had a singular job to do, humility be damned. I'm not talking about professional officers or guard shop owners, I mean the grunts out doing it.
> 
> As far as martial monks from Shaolin or Wudang... much like "the Church" in Western history, shelter was given to people who had been on the loosing side of power struggles, large or small. They took their skills with them & added to or refined existing skills in the temples. However, they still weren't nice people. They "learned" it in their new lives as they were.
> 
> The "honorable thief" or "knight errant" stories of chivalry in China is just that, stories. Sure there were always exceptions to the rule as with everything, but the wu xia stories are just that.
> 
> Humility from a CMA perspective is something that the upper class or scholarly class had time for. But when it came to day to day substance survival (middle class & below... gee, sounds familiar & current, doesn't it) or fighting & dying time, there's no room for that. Blink... you're dead. No room no time for that.



Ha, just so you know, Sean, some "do" arts aren't very "do" in their outlook either! If you saw what pre-WWII Kendo was like, or saw what some of the Judo training can be like... not very "do" at all... ha!


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## Steve

My personal opinion is that there is a lot of false modesty, in general.  We hear a lot about leaving ego at the door and being humble and all that, but it's mostly lip service.  Not just in martial arts, but in all activities.

As far as I'm concerned, ego is what drives us to succeed.  It's our desire to improve and become better.  And when balanced by a realistic self-image, it's beneficial.  

This is why I'm such a fan of sportive martial arts like MMA, Judo, BJJ and even TKD.  Within the sports there are goals and there are measures.  I know I can do X because I've done it.  Unlike MA-Caver, I train with and know a lot of MMA fighters through BJJ and in general they are genuinely humble.  I'd argue that this is for the reason above.  They train with specific goals in mind and they test their progress often.  To a person, good martial artists should be looking for holes and plugging them, and being humble is being willing to do this... to say, "Even though I've been training for X years, I'm pretty weak in this area. Even though I will be risking exposing a weakness in my game, I have to start working on it."  

In BJJ, a fear of exposing a weakness is called camping in your A game.  

Outside of an sport oriented martial art, pros like bouncers, bodyguards, or LEO also fall into the category of applying their skills for specific environments and marking their progress outside of the school environment.  

Where humility goes out the door and ego becomes detached from reality is when there are no realistic measurements.  In a school where you're being taught to become a well oiled machine of destruction or are learning the ultimate self-defense methodology, chances are you will never get a real test.  You'll learn in a vacuum and have very little chance of finding an application for your "skills."  And as a result, whatever feedback you receive from your instructor will be all you have.

I want to add that I also see two things that are often confused: inflated ego and swagger.  When a person's self image is based upon questionable accomplishments and not on independent assessment, they can get a big head.  These are the guys who think that they can do things that they really can't.  

Swagger is prevalent in styles like BJJ, boxing, MMA and others.  Swagger is confidence based on time.  Real swagger, in my opinion, is based upon countless repetition.  It's confidence that you can walk your talk because you know that what you're facing is something you've seen before.  It's knowing that you're as prepared mentally and physically as you can be and you're ready to be tested.  That's not ego.  

In the context of this thread, "ego" is confidence that isn't justified.


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## Bill Mattocks

See, I've got a different take on it.  I'm not afraid to suck at something.  I'm not afraid to be really bad at it and let the world see.  You've seen my videos of my kata and my sparring; it's not great, it's OK at best.

But the point for me is this.  It's real.  It's what is.  And sucking at something is the first step towards not being a complete loser at it.  I don't even worry about mastering it.  Competence would be good as an initial goal.  Is that humble?  I don't know, I guess so.  More importantly to me, it's real and I'm not ashamed of it.  Perhaps you could say I'm arrogant about how much I suck at martial arts (for now).  That does not mean I won't get better.


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## Steve

Bill Mattocks said:


> See, I've got a different take on it.  I'm not afraid to suck at something.  I'm not afraid to be really bad at it and let the world see.  You've seen my videos of my kata and my sparring; it's not great, it's OK at best.
> 
> But the point for me is this.  It's real.  It's what is.  And sucking at something is the first step towards not being a complete loser at it.  I don't even worry about mastering it.  Competence would be good as an initial goal.  Is that humble?  I don't know, I guess so.  More importantly to me, it's real and I'm not ashamed of it.  Perhaps you could say I'm arrogant about how much I suck at martial arts (for now).  That does not mean I won't get better.


I would say that this post in combination with your first one represents the distinction between an overly inflated ego and swagger.  

You only say that you're great at things you're really great at, and you know this because you're not afraid to put yourself out there.  If everyone did this, a conversation about humility and ego wouldn't be necessary.


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## clfsean

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, just so you know, Sean, some "do" arts aren't very "do" in their outlook either! If you saw what pre-WWII Kendo was like, or saw what some of the Judo training can be like... not very "do" at all... ha!



Oh Chris I know... old footage of Ueshiba & aikido prove that. But you know what I'm saying. I'm speaking from a large brush stroke in my comment.


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## Instructor

I think equal parts humility and confidence and no cockyness or arrogance is a good mixture.


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## decepticon

I think it depends on your definition of humility. If it means being having a modest ego about one's importance, rank, self, etc. (dictionary.com), then no. I would greatly prefer to see MA students focus on reality rather than modesty. However if we are working off of a definition that focuses more on modest and respectful behavior(wikipedia), then I think humility is a very good thing to have in MA.

I have seen a situation where a student was very, very good, however students more senior to him kept busting his chops about humility in what I believe was an attempt to keep him from showing them up. If this kid had been allowed to recognize his real potential, I think he would have been a truly great practitioner. But the others used humility against him, often counseling him to not show up any of his superiors or cause them to lose face, telling him that showing faster learning, better flexibility and better cardio than anyone else in the class was offensive. So for three years this kid basically knuckled under the thumb of forced humility. He eventually drifted away and became an award winning soccer player. I wasn't surprised. He was a friend's son, so I didn't feel it my place to intervene. I'm not sure if the sensei knew what was going on, but when the mom tried to talk to him about it once, he told her that he had a traditional style school, that rank and humility were very important there, and disregarded her concern.

OTOH, there is a guy in my class now who surely could use a big dose of humility of the modest/respectful behavior kind. He is too rough on the younger/lesser trained people. He is causing trouble with the more advanced students by always taking sparring matches to the degree that either he will hurt someone or force them to hurt him to back him off. The instructor has spoken with him and currently there are some bad feelings. I don't know how this will play out. But I do know that if this guy can't "humble" himself, especially for the purpose of training, then he will probably leave or be asked to leave the school.

In an actual fight, I don't see that humility of either kind has much value. Who in their right mind would enter into a fight if they believed they were not worthy or possibly capable of winning it?


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## Instructor

decepticon said:


> In an actual fight, I don't see that humility of either kind has much value. Who in their right mind would enter into a fight if they believed they were not worthy or possibly capable of winning it?




Perhaps courtesy is a component of humility.  Courtesy can often prevent the fight to begin with.

I define humility as a state of existence without ego.


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## Bill Mattocks

Instructor said:


> Perhaps courtesy is a component of humility.  Courtesy can often prevent the fight to begin with.
> 
> I define humility as a state of existence without ego.



That reminds me of a discussion we had here some time ago.  Respect versus politeness.  Some said they could not bring themselves to bow to someone they had no respect for, instructor or not.  Some said they could bow to an instructor but only after he or she had proven they were worthy of such respect.  My take on it was that bowing was simply polite.  It says nothing about the person you bow to; it says something about you.  My conscience dictates who I believe is worthy of respect; but that is internal.  My outward actions signify that I am able and willing to observe cultural norms.


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## Instructor

Bill Mattocks said:


> See, I've got a different take on it.  I'm not afraid to suck at something.  I'm not afraid to be really bad at it and let the world see.  You've seen my videos of my kata and my sparring; it's not great, it's OK at best.
> 
> But the point for me is this.  It's real.  It's what is.  And sucking at something is the first step towards not being a complete loser at it.  I don't even worry about mastering it.  Competence would be good as an initial goal.  Is that humble?  I don't know, I guess so.  More importantly to me, it's real and I'm not ashamed of it.  Perhaps you could say I'm arrogant about how much I suck at martial arts (for now).  That does not mean I won't get better.



Your a class act Bill.  I respect your humility.


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## Flying Crane

seems to me a bit of (honest) humility could be a good thing in life in general.  It's not limited to martial arts.  Of course this also assumes our modern, fairly gentle society as contrasted with the Old China that CLFSEAN described.

False humility is irritating.  Outright *******s are people for whom I have no time nor room in my life.  People with genuine humility are those who you may never even suspect what they know underneath the surface, because they just don't make a big deal about it, and probably only their family and close friends really know what they have.


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## Jenna

Thank you so much for taking the time to consider your replies.  I am grateful that this is not a simple black-and-white answer even if I would hope it were.  

I do not know if I am perceiving a general gist.  I think humility implies a certain withdrawal, is this correct?  

I think there is a particular situation in which humility would be expected and perhaps demanded, though the time for such humility may not be afforded to you or the circumstances in which you would feel inclined to be humble may not be favourable.  It is when you are fighting an adversary who is bigger, fitter, stronger, more experienced, more senior, carrying more reputation behind them and who moves people like me and you aside in their wake.  Humility is expected.  Even in our minds we are conditioned to humility as a sign of respect and deference in this situation from comparable situations?  Is this correct?

Is there any situation where humility would be a _good _thing when dealing with an adversary?

Is there any situation where ultimate conceit in one's infallibility would be prudent?

Thank you very much.


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## Dirty Dog

I think it depends on how "humility" is defined. And I don't mean by the dictionary, I mean the working definition.

Being humble doesn't mean saying "I'm no good", it means knowing your strengths and weaknesses, aknowledging what you know, but recognizing what you don't. 

I'm an ER/Flight Nurse. And I'm very good at what I do. I'm good with trauma, cardiac, respiratory...

I'm not so good with pediatrics, and I frankly suck at OB/GYN. 

Humility, to me, requires you to accept both the good and the bad.


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## Buka

Bill Mattocks said:


> That reminds me of a discussion we had here some time ago.  Respect versus politeness.  Some said they could not bring themselves to bow to someone they had no respect for, instructor or not.  Some said they could bow to an instructor but only after he or she had proven they were worthy of such respect.  My take on it was that bowing was simply polite.  It says nothing about the person you bow to; it says something about you.  My conscience dictates who I believe is worthy of respect; but that is internal.  My outward actions signify that I am able and willing to observe cultural norms.



To me, the fact that you didn't start Martial Arts as a young kid - deprived the Martial Arts of a damn good man for many years.


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## decepticon

Maybe it would be easier to get a handle on what humility is if we looked at what it is not. To me, humility is the opposite of arrogance. And certainly, humility prior to a fight could well help avoid the fight entirely. Someone who is humble would be much slower to take offense and slower to think that they were adequate to avenge any perceived slight.

Perhaps a certain degree of humility could be helpful during a fight, in that it would help guard against overconfidence or underestimating the opponent. Or possibly a little false humility as a deception - "Oh please let me go, a middle aged Mom like me could never fight off a big strong...WHAM!"

I don't see humility as much withdrawl as I do a type of self containment coupled with perhaps a bit of self depreciation. I feel that my instructor gives a good picture of humility. He is not one of those who loudly proclaim every credit they have to their name within the first meeting. After 2 years of training with him, he will still occasionally mention some impressive event very calmly and casually, to illustrate another point. I joke with him that most people who have done what he has would have had most of it tattooed across their foreheads! I like his humility much more than those who work so hard to massage their few credits into the biggest display they can manage.


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## Steve

Instructor said:


> Perhaps courtesy is a component of humility.  Courtesy can often prevent the fight to begin with.
> 
> I define humility as a state of existence without ego.


There is no such thing as a state of existence without ego.  And it would take a pretty large ego to believe you have none.  Which is fun and ironic.


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## seasoned

MA-Caver said:


> The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.


Now you went and done it, you will be visited by this lady, Tez3, for sure...............


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## Instructor

Steve said:


> There is no such thing as a state of existence without ego.  And it would take a pretty large ego to believe you have none.  Which is fun and ironic.



I respectfully disagree.  I've known people who live to serve others and avoid attention for themselves.  We could get into psychological semantics but to me, they exist without ego.  It is real, pure, and powerful, humility.


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## Steve

Instructor said:


> I respectfully disagree.  I've known people who live to serve others and avoid attention for themselves.  We could get into psychological semantics but to me, they exist without ego.  It is real, pure, and powerful, humility.



Then,respectfully, you don't really know what ego is.  I get what you're saying about humility, but its not possible to be without ego.  The ego is a part of us.  

Inflated ego based upon imaginary ability...  I get that, but as I said earlier, I see that being much more of a risk in traditional styles than in a sporting one.


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## Instructor

Steve said:


> Then,respectfully, you don't really know what ego is.  I get what you're saying about humility, but its not possible to be without ego.  The ego is a part of us.
> 
> Inflated ego based upon imaginary ability...  I get that, but as I said earlier, I see that being much more of a risk in traditional styles than in a sporting one.



Perhaps then 'ego' is the wrong word.  Maybe conceit is more appropriate.  Humility, the absence of conceit.


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## Jenna

decepticon said:


> Maybe it would be easier to get a handle on what humility is if we looked at what it is not. To me, humility is the opposite of arrogance. And certainly, humility prior to a fight could well help avoid the fight entirely. Someone who is humble would be much slower to take offense and slower to think that they were adequate to avenge any perceived slight.
> 
> Perhaps a certain degree of humility could be helpful during a fight, in that it would help guard against overconfidence or underestimating the opponent. Or possibly a little false humility as a deception - "Oh please let me go, a middle aged Mom like me could never fight off a big strong...WHAM!"
> 
> I don't see humility as much withdrawl as I do a type of self containment coupled with perhaps a bit of self depreciation. I feel that my instructor gives a good picture of humility. He is not one of those who loudly proclaim every credit they have to their name within the first meeting. After 2 years of training with him, he will still occasionally mention some impressive event very calmly and casually, to illustrate another point. I joke with him that most people who have done what he has would have had most of it tattooed across their foreheads! I like his humility much more than those who work so hard to massage their few credits into the biggest display they can manage.




I wonder is there a difference betweeen non-aggression - which in this instance where an adversary is bringing it to you I am sure would diffuse the situation - and humility which is maybe to defer to the greater ability of that adversary?  What do you think?  Is being humble to say, I am not so good as you or you are bigger and stronger?  Then is that to invite defeat into one's own head?  What I mean is that though it may be *expected* that we show humility and even in our own minds we ourselfs believe we *should* exhibit humility, I wonder is it better to refuse that dictate altogether and show no humility nor feel it in our hearts??  I do not know if taht makes sense?? 

I think self-deprecation is a trait that has its place also.  That is not a bad thing and can be becoming in measure.  And I like the demeanour of your instructor.  He has proven himself capable and in most ways I would guess, from having similiar teachers, encourages humility among students by that very demeanour.  And but what happens, can I ask, when we genuinely (perhaps unlike your instructor) feel less capable in the face of an adversary who we know we should feel humility before?  How do we rearrange our attitude in that instance would you think?  Thank you for your reply.  I am grateful.  






Instructor said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as a state of existence without ego. And it would take a pretty large ego to believe you have none. Which is fun and ironic.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. I've known people who live to serve others and avoid attention for themselves. We could get into psychological semantics but to me, they exist without ego. It is real, pure, and powerful, humility.
Click to expand...

I think perhaps what you are attributing to existence without ego is more akin to altruism and which is to me the most admirable of all virtues.  I think the idea of existence without ego (in the commonly accepted sense of the word) is very similar to a pure humility, I would say in a Christian sense.  I wonder though do you think conceit in one's own flawless skill is ever a more prudent attitude?  Is it ever advisable to eschew humility in a conflict situation especially towards an adversary that we might have otherwise had a yielding deference towards?  Does deliberate conceit give us an advantage in that situation over humility?  Thank you for sharing your thoughts.






Steve said:


> Inflated ego based upon imaginary ability... I get that, but as I said earlier, I see that being much more of a risk in traditional styles than in a sporting one.


Steve, is there a way to employ an inflated ego - in the sense I think you mean where the actual skill is not commensurate with the belief in that skill - is there a way that this can be used in a conflict situation where humility might have been formerly demanded?  Is belief everything?  Does belief usurp skill?  Can conceit be thought of as the ultimate belief in oneself?  Or will such delusion soon be revealed?  Thank you very much for your thoughts.


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## Tez3

seasoned said:


> Now you went and done it, you will be visited by this lady, Tez3, for sure...............




I would but he has me on ignore! 

Far from encouraging ego and lack of humility MMA competitive fights and training actually encourages humility.You cannot get into the cage/ring with an ego, it defeats you before you have even traded blows with your opponent. Knowing you can seriously hurt them and they you brings a different perspective as well as respect for your training partners and opponents. There is a great sense of sportsmanship and yes humility among MMAers that I have rarely seen in other sports. often after fighting each other for 3 or 4 rounds after the fight you will often find the former opponents in a changing area or spare piece of floor showing each other how to do the techniques they were putting on each other a little while before. If a fighter is injured the concern shown by all the other fighters, corners etc is touching. 

Don't confuse the wannabes, the businesses out to make money and the fan boys for the real thing. Training in a real MMA gym is very different from what you see on TUF, which is a contrived situation akin to the Big Brother house or the I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here television programmes. The hype you see on the UFC shows is there to make money for the company, it doesn't want or need to show fighters as they really are...who would want to buy into the truth of nice, calm, well trained and modest 'cage fighters', it just wouldn't sell tickets. If you buy into the celebrity stories then I guess you'll buy into the stories of MMA people though.


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## Josh Oakley

MA-Caver said:


> The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.



Check out Ben Henderson. He exceeds at humility. Actually, the way he lives his life in general is quite inspiring. 

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## Ironcrane

Personally I just love telling everyone about how humble I am. Whenever I do a charitable act, I usually spend the next week or so telling everyone about it! I could go on for hours about it. Surprisingly, some people don't like it when I do that, but maybe that's just because they don't appreciate how humble I am. With that said, I'm now off to fish for compliments so I can be modest about it.

I'm so humble, and wise - it's terrific!!!


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## Jenna

Ironcrane said:


> Personally I just love telling everyone about how humble I am. Whenever I do a charitable act, I usually spend the next week or so telling everyone about it! I could go on for hours about it. Surprisingly, some people don't like it when I do that, but maybe that's just because they don't appreciate how humble I am. With that said, I'm now off to fish for compliments so I can be modest about it.
> 
> I'm so humble, and wise - it's terrific!!!


LOL, hey no levity on this thread it is fo real n serious n stuff! 

Ah I am wondering to myself though if this situation as you describe is false humility or maybe do you think it is closer to the altruism of the self-server?  The kind of altruism of Bill & Melinda Gates who do a lot of good work for charity and but do not like to talk about it, like EVER!! or love-me-everybody-I-Am-George-Clooney-doing-something-to-raise-awareness-and-not-to-be-adored-so please turn-away-and-do-not-notice-me 

As for fishing for compliments, I have always thought that to be too modest or too self-effacing when receiving a compliment is like belittling that compliment.  Do you think that is true? 

In terms of your martial art, do you show deference to an adversary who should -all other things being equal- demand deference and humility from you?  Is this a bad idea to do?  Is humility in the face of an obviously badder opponent than you ever wise?  Thank you.  And no more joking around k?  Show some humility in this thread


----------



## Instructor

Actually humor is likely an ingredient of humility.  The worst are people who take themselves way to seriously.


----------



## Jenna

Instructor said:


> Actually humor is likely an ingredient of humility.  The worst are people who take themselves way to seriously.


That is an interesting proposition.  Can I ask please if you can think of an example where humour and humility coexist and reinforce each other maybe?  Is the particular type of humour relevant, maybe self-deprecating humour??  Would you say that the corollary also stands, that being devoid of humour is to be empty of humility?

Thank you again.


----------



## Zenjael

Many when giving advice, or insight, forget to ask permission before doing so. It's a fine boundary to cross; and the religious do it most oft, but you can find it in martial arts just as often.

A person must choose their teacher, and the teacher likewise, their students. They can be all accepting, or exclusive, it is in their inherent nature, and they will teach best by following it naturally, accordingly.

I have found when you give advice to others... they are not always the most receptive. My poor reputation here, stands for grounds of that. It means nothing that the words might be hollow, or false, or wrong. It is hard to be outright wrong in martial arts, save when something just isn't working for the individual, and they cannot see the shortcoming causing it.

But being receptive toward insights which are truly so for oneself is important- everyone has advice, but if you followed all of it, you'd wind up worse than when you started.

I recall a great artist in Greece, the best in masonry and creating statues, took two marble blocks, and had the townspeople give advice as to what was beautiful, and would create the figure based upon their suggestions. With the other block, with his own definition of beauty, he chiseled. When both were unveiled, the town was reviled at what he had created, at their own suggestions, while his own, they agreed without exception was the eye of beauty. The message isn't that he tried to discredit the town, but rather akin to when Buddha explained to the blind man what sight was- you cannot know what it is until you do it, and I like to think Martial Arts applies to both.

A lot of people think they know what to do, it takes a humble man to be able to accept their advice, not destroy their own picture, and take the elements that do work. Lord knows if you listen to everyone here you'll twist your head into knots- and it's because we are all so different as people and martial artists.

I don't make hard contact because I am humble- I would like to think. Not because I think I can devastate with a single blow, or annihalate through speed... but honestly, I'm happy with the people I train with. I'd rather let them know I value their safety, over proving a point, in the sense I do not want to lose them as training partners. When they want to put on the pads, and go hard, I'd like to think I'll be there, hopefully matching them. Humility is something behind not just behavior, but our art as well. Is your art flashy, for show... or practical? And why?

Did you learn martial arts to be great... or help others? It's unquestionable Bruce Lee is a great martial artist, but outside of cinema, you begin to a see a character who was not humble. Who would not admit defeat, or flaw. And that is problem- he was human, and martial artists, and martial arts, are meant for humans, the fallible. Those who know fear, and pain, and with the will to weather it and continue. 

Sorry for going philosophical. Humility is difficult, like being perched on a knife's blade. A quote I liked by Bruce Lee sums it up best, "If I said I were weak, you would think me lying. If I said I were great, you'd think me boasting."


----------



## Jenna

Zenjael said:


> Many when giving advice, or insight, forget to ask permission before doing so. It's a fine boundary to cross; and the religious do it most oft, but you can find it in martial arts just as often.
> 
> A person must choose their teacher, and the teacher likewise, their students. They can be all accepting, or exclusive, it is in their inherent nature, and they will teach best by following it naturally, accordingly.
> 
> I have found when you give advice to others... they are not always the most receptive. My poor reputation here, stands for grounds of that. It means nothing that the words might be hollow, or false, or wrong. It is hard to be outright wrong in martial arts, save when something just isn't working for the individual, and they cannot see the shortcoming causing it.
> 
> But being receptive toward insights which are truly so for oneself is important- everyone has advice, but if you followed all of it, you'd wind up worse than when you started.
> 
> I recall a great artist in Greece, the best in masonry and creating statues, took two marble blocks, and had the townspeople give advice as to what was beautiful, and would create the figure based upon their suggestions. With the other block, with his own definition of beauty, he chiseled. When both were unveiled, the town was reviled at what he had created, at their own suggestions, while his own, they agreed without exception was the eye of beauty. The message isn't that he tried to discredit the town, but rather akin to when Buddha explained to the blind man what sight was- you cannot know what it is until you do it, and I like to think Martial Arts applies to both.
> 
> A lot of people think they know what to do, it takes a humble man to be able to accept their advice, not destroy their own picture, and take the elements that do work. Lord knows if you listen to everyone here you'll twist your head into knots- and it's because we are all so different as people and martial artists.
> 
> I don't make hard contact because I am humble- I would like to think. Not because I think I can devastate with a single blow, or annihalate through speed... but honestly, I'm happy with the people I train with. I'd rather let them know I value their safety, over proving a point, in the sense I do not want to lose them as training partners. When they want to put on the pads, and go hard, I'd like to think I'll be there, hopefully matching them. Humility is something behind not just behavior, but our art as well. Is your art flashy, for show... or practical? And why?
> 
> Did you learn martial arts to be great... or help others? It's unquestionable Bruce Lee is a great martial artist, but outside of cinema, you begin to a see a character who was not humble. Who would not admit defeat, or flaw. And that is problem- he was human, and martial artists, and martial arts, are meant for humans, the fallible. Those who know fear, and pain, and with the will to weather it and continue.
> 
> Sorry for going philosophical. Humility is difficult, like being perched on a knife's blade. A quote I liked by Bruce Lee sums it up best, "If I said I were weak, you would think me lying. If I said I were great, you'd think me boasting."


Thank you for your contribution. I like your parable and I understand your point therein.  

I would beg to disagree that Bruce Lee would have seen himself as flawless, however I would be speculating either way.  

Except Bruce Lee famously said, "_Empty your cup so that it may be filled; become devoid to gain totality_.  Can you say what that quotation would mean to you yourself?  

Thank you.


----------



## Chris Parker

Sorry, Alex, but there's too much here to not go through... 



Zenjael said:


> Many when giving advice, or insight, forget to ask permission before doing so. It's a fine boundary to cross; and the religious do it most oft, but you can find it in martial arts just as often.



Yes, preaching when not asked for isn't really humble... so before you start preaching, it's a good idea to look at whether or not you are in a position to. I'd agree with that.

Oh, and you're still misusing 'oft'... that form only really works in poetry, hardly in a discussion forum (unless you're being deliberately flowery, for whatever reason... but that's not what your posts have shown), and certainly not in academic language as you are using as an excuse.



Zenjael said:


> A person must choose their teacher, and the teacher likewise, their students. They can be all accepting, or exclusive, it is in their inherent nature, and they will teach best by following it naturally, accordingly.



Now here you start to lose me... you were talking about giving advice or insight, now you're talking about choosing your teacher? I'm not really sure of the connection you're making there... are you saying that a teacher should ask permission before giving advice to the student? Or that the student should be advising the teacher? How is this connected to the former statement?



Zenjael said:


> I have found when you give advice to others... they are not always the most receptive. My poor reputation here, stands for grounds of that. It means nothing that the words might be hollow, or false, or wrong. It is hard to be outright wrong in martial arts, save when something just isn't working for the individual, and they cannot see the shortcoming causing it.
> 
> But being receptive toward insights which are truly so for oneself is important- everyone has advice, but if you followed all of it, you'd wind up worse than when you started.



Not to stay on it too long, as discussions on rep are against the TOS you agreed to when you signed up, but the fact that you were offering advice isn't why you got the rep you did, it's more about your inability to listen to constructive criticism, even when you asked specifically for it, not listening when corrected, and basically coming in with a "greatest thing since sliced bread" attitude. You can offer advice as much as you want, but bear in mind it won't be accepted automatically. That's fine, no-one's is. But we deal with it, listen to what is said, and then act accordingly (for the record, sometimes the arguments are baseless, ludicrous, or plain silly... but they're still listened to, and then dismissed only if that's the right response).

But to it... "It is hard to be outright wrong in martial arts"? Uh, no, not really. It's quite easy, actually. Many, many people have managed it, many continue to manage it, many more will manage it tomorrow. In fact, you've managed it yourself quite well.

I'm not sure what you mean in your next paragraph ("being receptive towards insights which are truly so for oneself is important"... uh, are truly what? You don't seem to have a context or subject for that statement...), are you saying that it's important to be receptive to insight which is applicable to yourself? Uh, okay... 



Zenjael said:


> I recall a great artist in Greece, the best in masonry and creating statues, took two marble blocks, and had the townspeople give advice as to what was beautiful, and would create the figure based upon their suggestions. With the other block, with his own definition of beauty, he chiseled. When both were unveiled, the town was reviled at what he had created, at their own suggestions, while his own, they agreed without exception was the eye of beauty. The message isn't that he tried to discredit the town, but rather akin to when Buddha explained to the blind man what sight was- you cannot know what it is until you do it, and I like to think Martial Arts applies to both.



Hmm, that's quite a mess of words you've put down there... let's look to the use of language first. The big one is "the town was reviled at what he had created"... look, as we've said to you many times now, using words without understanding their use just makes you look bad. The town could be appalled at what they saw, they could revile it, but to say they were reviled means that the townspeople themselves were the image of horror, not the statue. Seriously, you make such a number of grammatical errors that the claim that they are due to academic requirements falls flat. I'm pretty sure that part of the academic requirements would be that the words are correctly used.

But to your story there... you're just using it to illustrate that doing what everyone says ends in a mess, yeah? The reason I ask is that your end comment about Buddha explaining sight to a blind man has, well, nothing to do with the story you linked it to. The story is about individual perceptions not matching, and attempting to please everyone ending in no-one being happy... and the lesson you associate it with is about the importance of experience as a frame of reference. And I really have no idea what you're talking about when you say "I like to think that Martial Arts applies to both"... both what?



Zenjael said:


> A lot of people think they know what to do, it takes a humble man to be able to accept their advice, not destroy their own picture, and take the elements that do work. Lord knows if you listen to everyone here you'll twist your head into knots- and it's because we are all so different as people and martial artists.



But, to take your situation as a template, if everyone is saying the same thing, and you asked for the advice in the first place, not listening to any of them could be taken as not being very humble.



Zenjael said:


> I don't make hard contact because I am humble- I would like to think. Not because I think I can devastate with a single blow, or annihalate through speed... but honestly, I'm happy with the people I train with. I'd rather let them know I value their safety, over proving a point, in the sense I do not want to lose them as training partners. When they want to put on the pads, and go hard, I'd like to think I'll be there, hopefully matching them. Humility is something behind not just behavior, but our art as well. Is your art flashy, for show... or practical? And why?



Alex, please. "I don't make hard contact because I am humble.." Really? You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone here that's the reason. Especially when hard contact is considered one of the primary reasons for humility and politeness in many dojo... going soft shows a lack of respect for your partners, their ability, and their development in many cases.

I mentioned reiho in Japanese arts earlier... without going into too much detail, reiho (proper etiquette), saho (proper manners) etc are considered essential in Japanese martial arts, and a major reason is that if you didn't show the proper respect you might very easily just be killed during the training. And no, that's not me being poetic. I'm being very literal.



Zenjael said:


> Did you learn martial arts to be great... or help others? It's unquestionable Bruce Lee is a great martial artist, but outside of cinema, you begin to a see a character who was not humble. Who would not admit defeat, or flaw. And that is problem- he was human, and martial artists, and martial arts, are meant for humans, the fallible. Those who know fear, and pain, and with the will to weather it and continue.



Are those really the only reasons you can think of for learning martial arts? Honestly, for me, neither.  



Zenjael said:


> Sorry for going philosophical. Humility is difficult, like being perched on a knife's blade. A quote I liked by Bruce Lee sums it up best, "If I said I were weak, you would think me lying. If I said I were great, you'd think me boasting."



No, humility isn't that difficult. It's relative.


----------



## Jenna

Christopher, I hope you are not on a witch hunt.  I think being confrontational with this poster in this way means he may not reply to the simple questions I am trying to ask him because he is fighting back with you all, pffft..


----------



## elder999

Let me get this out right away: _I am *not* humble._

Big surprise, right?? I know!! :lol:

In all seriousness, though, depsite an outsize ego, I think humility is a requirement in _learning_ martial arts: the scariest thing many of us have ever done is put on a beginner's training uniform and step on the mat for the first time.

More to the point, for people like myself, who have been in more than one, and more than one _kind_ of dojo, humility is an absolute requirement. When I took up aikido, and basically started over as a white belt beginner, I had to really focus on forgetting that I was 3rd dan at _anything._ *Really* focus on learning things as simple as _kote-gaeshi_ all over again-and it was humbling, not only to put myself in that position, but to really open myself up to _learning_. 

Having an outsize ego, I often _seek _humbling experiences-as an aside, one of the first observations I made about my religious life was that it is always a humbling experience (for me) to be present and party to the prayers of others.

Conversely, though, when I went to Japan to study at the Kyokushin honbu, I knew, and Oyama Sensei (that's Oyama Shigeru, no relation to Mas Oyama) knew that, despite having a letter of introduction from him, and my membership and rank being in order-I would be laughed at by some when I said I was nidan, and I would be _tested_ the *kyokushin* way, my very first day in the dojo.

In other words, they'd try to take my head off. :lol: 

No place for humility there-except maybe for acknowledging the eagle sized butterflies in my stomach that told me I was scared ****less. :lol:


----------



## Tez3

Jenna said:


> Christopher, I hope you are not on a witch hunt. I think being confrontational with this poster in this way means he may not reply to the simple questions I am trying to ask him because he is fighting back with you all, pffft..




Jenna, that you feel sorry for this poster is nice but any 'confronting' is coming from him, not the other posters. if you have the patience to wade through all his posts you will find they go from being downright patronising to just plain rude to other posters. Chris is actually showing more patience with him than many of us feel at this moment, I would say there are many who suspect Zenjael to be a troll, Chris is treating him as a serious poster and being polite while he's doing it.


----------



## Zenjael

> I would beg to disagree that Bruce Lee would have seen himself as flawless, however I would be speculating either way.



I think when it comes to Bruce Lee, most of what we know is speculation. I would love to have sat down with him for just 5 minutes and spoken with him, and gleaned what I could from his words. However, I think of a fight I have read about, which directly resulted in him modifying Wing Chun. A 3 hour fight, where he emerged having doubts about his martial arts and his abilities... but because of his film career would not admit defeat. The bout itself came about because he trash talked the martial arts community in sanfran, and a member rose to the challenge. Any fight which lasts three hours, behind closed doors, is likely to be a very even fight, no matter who says they wailed on whom. I would also add the artist who challenged Bruce Lee was very reputable within his community, and considered skilled. From what I've heard it was a good fight- but we may never know who actually won. The point being- Bruce Lee had priorities and a career to protect, so was he actually brash, or did his life path force him to not be humble. I think... if a person is too humble, at the crux of success, it might abandon them. 

I am not successful, so I do not know. Perhaps one day when I am, I might. But doubt is humble, admitting one does not know is the first step. Humility is hard for me- I have a huuuuuuuuuuuuge ego. But I try to temper my actions, now I think it is time to temper my words.



> Except Bruce Lee famously said, "_Empty your cup so that it may be filled; become devoid to gain totality_.&#8221;  Can you say what that quotation would mean to you yourself?



To me, Jenna, it seems to me you can easily overpour a cup. The nicest thing about this parable is that, to me, it talks about emptying the ego so one can learn. It is only with the abandonment of our self, and biases, we see the true art emerge, and do our best to integrate. I like this quote, and the zen epistemology, because it suggests that even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full, or else it would spill. Likewise in martial arts... we are never finished in our learning, and growing, and to be so... is to be dead. To grow is to be alive. I like that quote because it also suggests, to me, that if you fill the cup, you can always drink the water, and fill it again as you do desire.

Chris, if you ever hope to actually engage in dialogue with me, and not just rip apart what I say with a net bias, I will be happy to speak. But until then, you will not be getting responses from me. If you really trained with a group of people, who would kill you if you based off only their definition of respect, and not ackowledge yours... how is that respectful? For either group? I would have to say training with any group who would desire serious physical harm over something trite is a group to avoid. Which might also explain your aggressive attitude. 



> Are those really the only reasons you can think of for learning martial arts? Honestly, for me, neither.



There are reason innumerable to take MA Chris. Those are not the only reasons, only the question I asked. you mentioned humility is relative, and it is. But that is what makes it difficult for some, and easier for others. The rituals of MA do not mesh well with everyone, and I know a number of artists who avoid all schools which promote off belts and paying for an exam. He abhors them, and under his definition most MA schools are McDojos, even reputable ones, simply based off his criteria that they promote based off money, ultimately. He is also among the most skilled artists I know- so I do not take his input lightly.

However, I'll find many reacting negatively to such a comment, when the more common held view is a Mcdojo is not like those schools, in the sense they prioritize money and profit over learning, and expanding the art. It doesn't matter if a school is a Mcdojo, what matters is the student produced.

You'll find it a lot easier to communicate with me if you take a deep breath, lower your fists, and actually talk. Instead of attacking blindly, and pursuing a witch hunt. It's not worth your time and energy, nor mine to read a post where you're more interested in disagreeing, than talking. Maybe humility is not difficult to you because you have not found it- your attitude conveys that to me.



> Jenna, that you feel sorry for this poster is nice but any 'confronting'  is coming from him, not the other posters. if you have the patience to  wade through all his posts you will find they go from being downright  patronising to just plain rude to other posters. Chris is actually  showing more patience with him than many of us feel at this moment, I  would say there are many who suspect Zenjael to be a troll, Chris is  treating him as a serious poster and being polite while he's doing it.



I think if you look at the history of this thread- you'll find it not me being confrontational, nor who even initiates confrontation. Nor have I- when I defend myself from overly harsh accusation, then I am told I am trolling. It is rather funny, from my pov.

And if I have been rude- I have apologized time and again, yet received none myself.

But... this is also a forum, one I have seen likened to 'yankee stadium' and honestly... I think the pride on the board could be pulled back a tad. Know that historically, the only witches people have hunted were the ones, they with bias, accused of being witches. Enjoy your witch hunt.


----------



## Tez3

Sigh, there's no witch hunt my boy, we speak plainly here and call things as we see them. Your style of writing leaves you open to huge misunderstandings and often what you write is confrontational as well as rude, it's fine apologising but if you don't know what for it's pointless. You last sentence is saying something you don't actually mean for example, the witches weren't biased and who should know what? There's been no 'harsh' criticism of you either, it's all been well within the rules of MT ( yankee stadium?) there has however been a lot of goodwill towards you that you have actually ignored.


----------



## clfsean

Zenjael said:


> I think when it comes to Bruce Lee, most of what we know is speculation. I would love to have sat down with him for just 5 minutes and spoken with him, and gleaned what I could from his words. However, I think of a fight I have read about, which directly resulted in him modifying Wing Chun. A 3 hour fight, where he emerged having doubts about his martial arts and his abilities... but because of his film career would not admit defeat. The bout itself came about because he trash talked the martial arts community in sanfran, and a member rose to the challenge. Any fight which lasts three hours, behind closed doors, is likely to be a very even fight, no matter who says they wailed on whom. I would also add the artist who challenged Bruce Lee was very reputable within his community, and considered skilled. From what I've heard it was a good fight- but we may never know who actually won. The point being- Bruce Lee had priorities and a career to protect, so was he actually brash, or did his life path force him to not be humble. I think... if a person is too humble, at the crux of success, it might abandon them.



*oiy vey*

-- it wasn't a 3 hour fight. It was less than a minute.
-- he didn't modify Wing Chun. He barely knew Wing Chun.
-- it wasn't an "even fight". It was barely a "fight even". Not going into details here. 
-- the rest of what you said just reeks of not knowing. Until you've had a chance to talk to some of the people involved (I have), talking about that story from where ever you got your info is about like reading the National Enquirer for quality news.

And the rest of the post..... ***ssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhbbbbbbbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkksssssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh** goes the white noise of not listening again.


----------



## Buka

elder999 said:


> Let me get this out right away: _I am *not* humble._
> 
> Big surprise, right?? I know!! :lol:
> 
> In all seriousness, though, depsite an outsize ego, I think humility is a requirement in _learning_ martial arts: the scariest thing many of us have ever done is put on a beginner's training uniform and step on the mat for the first time.
> 
> More to the point, for people like myself, who have been in more than one, and more than one _kind_ of dojo, humility is an absolute requirement. When I took up aikido, and basically started over as a white belt beginner, I had to really focus on forgetting that I was 3rd dan at _anything._ *Really* focus on learning things as simple as _kote-gaeshi_ all over again-and it was humbling, not only to put myself in that position, but to really open myself up to _learning_.
> 
> Having an outsize ego, I often _seek _humbling experiences-as an aside, one of the first observations I made about my religious life was that it is always a humbling experience (for me) to be present and party to the prayers of others.
> 
> Conversely, though, when I went to Japan to study at the Kyokushin honbu, I knew, and Oyama Sensei (that's Oyama Shigeru, no relation to Mas Oyama) knew that, despite having a letter of introduction from him, and my membership and rank being in order-I would be laughed at by some when I said I was nidan, and I would be _tested_ the *kyokushin* way, my very first day in the dojo.
> 
> In other words, they'd try to take my head off. :lol:
> 
> No place for humility there-except maybe for acknowledging the eagle sized butterflies in my stomach that told me I was scared ****less. :lol:



There is something to be said for the adage, "If you have a cannon, shoot it."

And in case anyone was wondering who said that, it was a guy with a cannon.


----------



## Tez3

Often people mistake confidence for arrogance. I'm into watching cycling, I'm waiting now for the tour of Catalunya to restart as there's been a big accident. I particularly like Mark Cavendish who many accuse of being arrogant with the things he says often being mistaken for arrogance but if you actually take the time to listen to what he says, it makes sense and shows humility. The person he's hardest on is himself, he drives himself incredibly hard. He works hard, prepares meticulously and puts his all into what he does, he acknowledges freely the help he's given by his team mates, he's far from being a braggart that the press like to label him as, 'the bad boy', he's not, he's passionate and hard working like many successful people. He like Elder challenges himself.


----------



## elder999

Zenjael said:


> I don't make hard contact because I am humble- I would like to think.



I think you don't make hard contact because you don't know what it is, and you don't know how..........



Zenjael said:


> Not because I think I can devastate with a single blow, or annihalate through speed...



But you *do* think that, right? I mean-you've posted as much, or implied as much with your posts.



Zenjael said:


> but honestly, I'm happy with the people I train with. I'd rather let them know I value their safety, over proving a point, in the sense I do not want to lose them as training partners. When they want to put on the pads, and go hard, I'd like to think I'll be there, hopefully matching them.



......., and your training partners don't know what hard contact is, or how- either.


----------



## Zenjael

> You last sentence is saying something you don't actually mean for  example, the witches weren't biased and who should know what?



I advise re-reading it. What I wrote was, that most of the people hunted as witches, were only actually witches because they were accused of being so. That's another way to reitterate it.



> There's been no 'harsh' criticism of you either, it's all been well  within the rules of MT ( yankee stadium?) there has however been a lot  of goodwill towards you that you have actually ignored.



Apologies for what may come off as rude, but, really? Since when is it not harsh, when to disagree the person then attacks my background. Would it be appropriate if you and I disagreed, so therefore your teacher must be the owner of a mcdojo, all of your teachers. When we disagree, are you given a reputation demerit for something you're actually agreeing, publicly, with the mod over? Have people legitimately asked if you are mentally retarded, because of a disagreement? At that point you should see that the only common thread between all 4 examples, and all the more I can give, is a personal bias toward me. Heck, I've got people heckling me over even the vernacular I use. Not even because of my martial arts, or what I can evidentially do. This is fair though- we all are allotted to our own opines. 

I'm not trying to complain, for that would do nothing, but it is a matter of perspective, and put yourself in my shoes for two seconds. If I deliberately followed your posts, to pick them apart, it looks a lot different from where I'm standing, than where you are. And I assure you, that is what has been doing on.

When joining the forum, I considered the site to be a place where we all come together to learn from each other. It was my mistake for assuming that. That is not what this forum about, nor how it even functions practically. This is a forum where being right matters, and this is conveyed in the behavior, and attitude of many of the posters when disagreeing. 



Now you can say I've done the same- but good luck finding evidence. The only posts I've picked apart are the ones where people tell me what I'm doing is flat out wrong. In the end it comes around full circle to the question of humility. The attitude on this forum, in large part to me, generally reflects the atmosphere of most other martial artists around the world. I'll be honest in saying that I need to be more humble- but in large part I would also say this forum has pride to tone down. And that probably is representative of the work that needs to be done around the world. More humility, less show.

I don't care about being right- I'd rather be wrong, it helps one to grow to be more wrong, than they are right. Just as fear, a weakness, is what ultimately forces us to grow.


----------



## Jenna

elder999 said:


> Let me get this out right away: _I am *not* humble._
> 
> Big surprise, right?? I know!! :lol:
> 
> In all seriousness, though, depsite an outsize ego, I think humility is a requirement in _learning_ martial arts: the scariest thing many of us have ever done is put on a beginner's training uniform and step on the mat for the first time.
> 
> More to the point, for people like myself, who have been in more than one, and more than one _kind_ of dojo, humility is an absolute requirement. When I took up aikido, and basically started over as a white belt beginner, I had to really focus on forgetting that I was 3rd dan at _anything._ *Really* focus on learning things as simple as _kote-gaeshi_ all over again-and it was humbling, not only to put myself in that position, but to really open myself up to _learning_.
> 
> Having an outsize ego, I often _seek _humbling experiences-as an aside, one of the first observations I made about my religious life was that it is always a humbling experience (for me) to be present and party to the prayers of others.
> 
> Conversely, though, when I went to Japan to study at the Kyokushin honbu, I knew, and Oyama Sensei (that's Oyama Shigeru, no relation to Mas Oyama) knew that, despite having a letter of introduction from him, and my membership and rank being in order-I would be laughed at by some when I said I was nidan, and I would be _tested_ the *kyokushin* way, my very first day in the dojo.
> 
> In other words, they'd try to take my head off. :lol:
> 
> No place for humility there-except maybe for acknowledging the eagle sized butterflies in my stomach that told me I was scared ****less. :lol:


Thank you expressing your thoughts so eloquently.  I like reading of your experiences.  I like reading more of how you assimilate and internalise that experience.  I think you do this quite deftly.  Can I ask you a few questions please?  You are saying you are not humble by default and but I am not reading of experience in which that lack of humility has served you well.  I am particularly interested in occasions where that facet in your personality of not being humble has engendered a success.  I am particularly interested in any fighting / combat or conflict situations where this has worked for you.  Thank you.  Can I also ask do you think there is a place for conceit in the idea of one's invincibility?  Is there ever a case in the face of a particularly "worthy" adversary where an attitude of extreme conceit would pay off?  Or is that plain foolishness?  Thank you again.  I am grateful for your thoughts.


----------



## Jenna

Zenjael said:


> I think when it comes to Bruce Lee, most of what we know is speculation. I would love to have sat down with him for just 5 minutes and spoken with him, and gleaned what I could from his words. However, I think of a fight I have read about, which directly resulted in him modifying Wing Chun. A 3 hour fight, where he emerged having doubts about his martial arts and his abilities... but because of his film career would not admit defeat. The bout itself came about because he trash talked the martial arts community in sanfran, and a member rose to the challenge. Any fight which lasts three hours, behind closed doors, is likely to be a very even fight, no matter who says they wailed on whom. I would also add the artist who challenged Bruce Lee was very reputable within his community, and considered skilled. From what I've heard it was a good fight- but we may never know who actually won. The point being- Bruce Lee had priorities and a career to protect, so was he actually brash, or did his life path force him to not be humble. I think... if a person is too humble, at the crux of success, it might abandon them.
> 
> I am not successful, so I do not know. Perhaps one day when I am, I might. But doubt is humble, admitting one does not know is the first step. Humility is hard for me- I have a huuuuuuuuuuuuge ego. But I try to temper my actions, now I think it is time to temper my words.
> 
> 
> 
> To me, Jenna, it seems to me you can easily overpour a cup. The nicest thing about this parable is that, to me, it talks about emptying the ego so one can learn. It is only with the abandonment of our self, and biases, we see the true art emerge, and do our best to integrate. I like this quote, and the zen epistemology, because it suggests that even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full, or else it would spill. Likewise in martial arts... we are never finished in our learning, and growing, and to be so... is to be dead. To grow is to be alive. I like that quote because it also suggests, to me, that if you fill the cup, you can always drink the water, and fill it again as you do desire.
> 
> Chris, if you ever hope to actually engage in dialogue with me, and not just rip apart what I say with a net bias, I will be happy to speak. But until then, you will not be getting responses from me. If you really trained with a group of people, who would kill you if you based off only their definition of respect, and not ackowledge yours... how is that respectful? For either group? I would have to say training with any group who would desire serious physical harm over something trite is a group to avoid. Which might also explain your aggressive attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> There are reason innumerable to take MA Chris. Those are not the only reasons, only the question I asked. you mentioned humility is relative, and it is. But that is what makes it difficult for some, and easier for others. The rituals of MA do not mesh well with everyone, and I know a number of artists who avoid all schools which promote off belts and paying for an exam. He abhors them, and under his definition most MA schools are McDojos, even reputable ones, simply based off his criteria that they promote based off money, ultimately. He is also among the most skilled artists I know- so I do not take his input lightly.
> 
> However, I'll find many reacting negatively to such a comment, when the more common held view is a Mcdojo is not like those schools, in the sense they prioritize money and profit over learning, and expanding the art. It doesn't matter if a school is a Mcdojo, what matters is the student produced.
> 
> You'll find it a lot easier to communicate with me if you take a deep breath, lower your fists, and actually talk. Instead of attacking blindly, and pursuing a witch hunt. It's not worth your time and energy, nor mine to read a post where you're more interested in disagreeing, than talking. Maybe humility is not difficult to you because you have not found it- your attitude conveys that to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I think if you look at the history of this thread- you'll find it not me being confrontational, nor who even initiates confrontation. Nor have I- when I defend myself from overly harsh accusation, then I am told I am trolling. It is rather funny, from my pov.
> 
> And if I have been rude- I have apologized time and again, yet received none myself.
> 
> But... this is also a forum, one I have seen likened to 'yankee stadium' and honestly... I think the pride on the board could be pulled back a tad. Know that historically, the only witches people have hunted were the ones, they with bias, accused of being witches. Enjoy your witch hunt.


Thank you for your input.  I think you have the Bruce Lee quotation exactly correct, as I see it anyway.  Can you tell me please, if you are saying you have a huge ego, why you feel it necessary to temper your actions?  When has having a huge ego harmed you in a physical sense?  Do you find that bringing such an attitude to a fight has been to your benefit?  I am asking as open enquiry and appreciate your reply.  Thank you.  

As for witch hunts.  That is purely my opinion.  Opinions expressed herein are mine and not that of the management nor other patrons of the establishment.  I think though if there really _were _a witch hunt, and I am perceived as a witch, I would be asking myself why I am being perceived as a witch if I am not a witch.  Or if I really _am _a witch then I would ask myself is it better for me to hang on the gallows with my magickal integrity intact, or is it better for me to affect the attitude of piety before my accusers and continue my magickal workings in peace.  I guess I would also be asking what prospects are there for me in Salem in the long term .


----------



## Gnarlie

Zenjael said:


> ....rei*t*terate.....Since *when* is it *not* harsh, *when* to *dis*agree the person then attacks my background....*vernacular*....*evidentially*....we all are *allotted* to our own *opine*s.....And I assure you,  that is what has been *doing *on.....More humility, less show....



Seriously....I can't understand you anymore dude.


----------



## Tez3

Zenjael said:


> I advise re-reading it. What I wrote was, that most of the people hunted as witches, were only actually witches because they were accused of being so. That's another way to reitterate it.
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies for what may come off as rude, but, really? Since when is it not harsh, when to disagree the person then attacks my background. Would it be appropriate if you and I disagreed, so therefore your teacher must be the owner of a mcdojo, all of your teachers. When we disagree, are you given a reputation demerit for something you're actually agreeing, publicly, with the mod over? Have people legitimately asked if you are mentally retarded, because of a disagreement? At that point you should see that the only common thread between all 4 examples, and all the more I can give, is a personal bias toward me. Heck, I've got people heckling me over even the vernacular I use. Not even because of my martial arts, or what I can evidentially do. This is fair though- we all are allotted to our own opines.
> 
> I'm not trying to complain, for that would do nothing, but it is a matter of perspective, and put yourself in my shoes for two seconds. If I deliberately followed your posts, to pick them apart, it looks a lot different from where I'm standing, than where you are. And I assure you, that is what has been doing on.
> 
> When joining the forum, I considered the site to be a place where we all come together to learn from each other. It was my mistake for assuming that. That is not what this forum about, nor how it even functions practically. This is a forum where being right matters, and this is conveyed in the behavior, and attitude of many of the posters when disagreeing.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you can say I've done the same- but good luck finding evidence. The only posts I've picked apart are the ones where people tell me what I'm doing is flat out wrong. In the end it comes around full circle to the question of humility. The attitude on this forum, in large part to me, generally reflects the atmosphere of most other martial artists around the world. I'll be honest in saying that I need to be more humble- but in large part I would also say this forum has pride to tone down. And that probably is representative of the work that needs to be done around the world. More humility, less show.
> 
> I don't care about being right- I'd rather be wrong, it helps one to grow to be more wrong, than they are right. Just as fear, a weakness, is what ultimately forces us to grow.




I know what you meant when you wrote it however, what you wrote mean something else altogether because of your grammar and habit of not using words properly. Now there's people who say grammar doesn't matter but when the written word is all you have, such as here, it's very important you write your sentences correctly.

 "*Know* that historically, the only witches people have hunted were *the ones, they with bias,* accused of being witches. Enjoy your witch hunt."

*Know*...who knows, you or I? 

*The ones, they with bias*... this is saying the witches have the bias. You've joined the words together to make the meaning something different from that you intended it to mean. What you've said is that biased witches have been accused of being witches. You haven't said who's supposed to know this either.

I'm with Gnarlie in this, use proper English not some faux medieval parody then we will be able to actually converse and have a proper debate.


----------



## elder999

Jenna said:


> You are saying you are not humble by default and but I am not reading of experience in which that lack of humility has served you well. I am particularly interested in occasions where that facet in your personality of not being humble has engendered a success.



When I was born, in 1960, I was nearly 3 months premature-this caused lifelong lung damage. I also developed aplastic anemia and Wegener's granulomatosis at the age of six or so. I spent-as I've said before-most of my childhood with doctors telling me that I wasn't going to play sports, or learn to swim, or _*live*_ to the age 9, or 11, or 12, or 15.I also endured invasive procedures and surgeries on a fairly regular basis. When I was 6, the mumps-normally a relatively benign childhood disease-nearly killed me. I spent the years between 6 and 8 mostly in bed, and spent a lot of that time feeling like I was drowning on dry land.
In the face of all that, why would someone bother doing well in school, or learning to ride a bicycle, or swim? I'm no longer anemic, took myself off cortico-steroids when I reached puberty (consult with doctors and parents-*my* decision), and I haven't had a granuloma since my last year of high school. 

I'm still alive for a lot of reasons, but the biggest is probably my ego-I was not about to let adversity defeat me, and simply refused to die-several times.



Jenna said:


> I am particularly interested in any fighting / combat or conflict situations where this has worked for you.



See above.



Jenna said:


> Thank you. Can I also ask do you think there is a place for conceit in the idea of one's invincibility? Is there ever a case in the face of a particularly "worthy" adversary where an attitude of extreme conceit would pay off? Or is that plain foolishness? Thank you again. I am grateful for your thoughts.



See above-all the battles I've faced pale in comparison to simply drawing breath every day.

There are also numerous things that I've accomplished-professionally and physically being just two examples-that I wouldn't have if it weren't for my ego. I'd have simply listened to people who said I couldn't , or that it couldn't be done.


----------



## Gnarlie

When you use the verb _opine_ as a noun, you keep making me think of this:


----------



## Tez3

elder999 said:


> When I was born, in 1960, I was nearly 3 months premature-this caused lifelong lung damage. I also developed aplastic anemia and Wegener's granulomatosis at the age of six or so. I spent-as I've said before-most of my childhood with doctors telling me that I wasn't going to play sports, or learn to swim, or _*live*_ to the age 9, or 11, or 12, or 15.I also endured invasive procedures and surgeries on a fairly regular basis. When I was 6, the mumps-normally a relatively benign childhood disease-nearly killed me. I spent the years between 6 and 8 mostly in bed, and spent a lot of that time feeling like I was drowning on dry land.
> In the face of all that, why would someone bother doing well in school, or learning to ride a bicycle, or swim? I'm no longer anemic, took myself off cortico-steroids when I reached puberty (consult with doctors and parents-*my* decision), and I haven't had a granuloma since my last year of high school.
> 
> I'm still alive for a lot of reasons, but the biggest is probably my ego-I was not about to let adversity defeat me, and simply refused to die-several times.
> 
> 
> 
> See above.
> 
> 
> 
> See above-all the battles I've faced pale in comparison to simply drawing breath every day.
> 
> There are also numerous things that I've accomplished-professionally and physically being just two examples-that I wouldn't have if it weren't for my ego. I'd have simply listened to people who said I couldn't , or that it couldn't be done.





I'm not sure I'd call it 'ego', to me it's fighting spirit or the will to live. It's the spirit that is within people that makes them do extraordinary things. Ego or at least as how people perceive it is something that one is supposed to get rid of, that it's bad, a sense of self and ones strength might be a more appropriate description. When we talk about people having an 'ego' we actually mean they have arrogance and a feeling of superiority.


----------



## elder999

Tez3 said:


> . When we talk about people having an 'ego' we actually mean they have arrogance and a feeling of superiority.



And I'm saying I'm quite guilty of that-it takes some _arrogance_ to confidently walk up to some of the things I have with a "screwdriver" and start taking them apart without-quite simply-wetting one's pants. :lfao: It takes a feeling of superiority to take that screwdriver away from the guy standing next to you, and say, _Nope-we're all *bette*r off if I do this._

It takes humility, but _*very little *_humility, to hand the screwdriver over to the guy standing next to you and say,_Nope. Just not feeling this today..._  :lfao:

(said as someone who has done all three, but mostly only the first two...)


----------



## Tez3

elder999 said:


> And I'm saying I'm quite guilty of that-it takes some _arrogance_ to confidently walk up to some of the things I have with a "screwdriver" and start taking them apart without-quite simply-wetting one's pants. :lfao: It takes a feeling of superiority to take that screwdriver away from the guy standing next to you, and say, _Nope-we're all *bette*r off if I do this._
> 
> It takes humility, but _*very little *_humility, to hand the screwdriver over to the guy standing next to you and say,_Nope. Just not feeling this today..._ :lfao:
> 
> (said as someone who has done all three, but mostly only the first two...)



Nah, it's a man thing...like not asking for directions when one is lost!


----------



## clfsean

Buka said:


> There is something to be said for the adage, "If you have a cannon, shoot it."
> 
> And in case anyone was wondering who said that, it was a guy with a cannon.



Shoot... and here I thought it was Hunter S Thompson...


----------



## elder999

clfsean said:


> Shoot... and here I thought it was Hunter S Thompson...




Oh, I miss him!

GREAT party, though!!


----------



## clfsean

elder999 said:


> Oh, I miss him!
> 
> GREAT party, though!!



I got on to him late with his reports on ESPN online... my fail.


----------



## Chris Parker

Jenna said:


> Christopher, I hope you are not on a witch hunt.  I think being confrontational with this poster in this way means he may not reply to the simple questions I am trying to ask him because he is fighting back with you all, pffft..



Ah, my dearest J, I am on no witch hunt... and I'm not being confrontational here yet. I understand where you're coming from, but my take is slightly less forgiving for reasons that I hope to convey and expand upon here...



Zenjael said:


> I think when it comes to Bruce Lee, most of what we know is speculation. I would love to have sat down with him for just 5 minutes and spoken with him, and gleaned what I could from his words. However, I think of a fight I have read about, which directly resulted in him modifying Wing Chun. A 3 hour fight, where he emerged having doubts about his martial arts and his abilities... but because of his film career would not admit defeat. The bout itself came about because he trash talked the martial arts community in sanfran, and a member rose to the challenge. Any fight which lasts three hours, behind closed doors, is likely to be a very even fight, no matter who says they wailed on whom. I would also add the artist who challenged Bruce Lee was very reputable within his community, and considered skilled. From what I've heard it was a good fight- but we may never know who actually won. The point being- Bruce Lee had priorities and a career to protect, so was he actually brash, or did his life path force him to not be humble. I think... if a person is too humble, at the crux of success, it might abandon them.



First thing - Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story is highly fictionalised, don't rely on it for an accurate account.

Next, you may feel that "when it comes to Bruce Lee, most of what we know is speculation"... hmm, you, perhaps. But, to get back to it all again, there are members here who have been training far longer than you have been alive... who were active during Bruce's time, who have trained with or under people who trained with Bruce himself. I mean, William Cheung (yeah, not the most respected name in Wing Chun, I know) teaches in the same street I do... and he knew Bruce personally. So I'd be rather careful about deciding what people here know, or where they know it from. You are, frankly, still very much a kid in this world, and just because something is outside of your experience doesn't mean it's outside of other people's. The world did not start the day you were born.



Zenjael said:


> I am not successful, so I do not know. Perhaps one day when I am, I might. But doubt is humble, admitting one does not know is the first step. Humility is hard for me- I have a huuuuuuuuuuuuge ego. But I try to temper my actions, now I think it is time to temper my words.



Doubt isn't indicative of being humble, it's indicative of doubt or uncertainty. And as far as admitting one does not know being the first step... you will let us know when you intend to start that, won't you?



Zenjael said:


> To me, Jenna, it seems to me you can easily overpour a cup. The nicest thing about this parable is that, to me, it talks about emptying the ego so one can learn. It is only with the abandonment of our self, and biases, we see the true art emerge, and do our best to integrate. I like this quote, and the zen epistemology, because it suggests that even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full, or else it would spill. Likewise in martial arts... we are never finished in our learning, and growing, and to be so... is to be dead. To grow is to be alive. I like that quote because it also suggests, to me, that if you fill the cup, you can always drink the water, and fill it again as you do desire.



Firstly, it's not a parable. That's a story designed to teach a lesson, with protagonists, antagonists, narrative, and so on. Bruce's quote was a personal extension of the Buddhist story (which is a form of parable itself, although Bruce's quote was not), which he used to express his personal ideal... which, so you know, you've missed the point of. The idea is nothing like "even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full". In fact, that's kinda the opposite of what the story says (but isn't part of what Bruce was addressing); it actively argues against having your cup full as a real and present danger when seeking to learn and advance.

And what on earth is "zen epistemology"? Epistemology is a distinct branch of philosophy dealing specifically with the nature and range of knowledge, including it's attainment and progression, separate and removed from something like Buddhism, which contains philosophical aspects within spiritual doctrines.



Zenjael said:


> Chris, if you ever hope to actually engage in dialogue with me, and not just rip apart what I say with a net bias, I will be happy to speak. But until then, you will not be getting responses from me. If you really trained with a group of people, who would kill you if you based off only their definition of respect, and not ackowledge yours... how is that respectful? For either group? I would have to say training with any group who would desire serious physical harm over something trite is a group to avoid. Which might also explain your aggressive attitude.



This really isn't me being aggressive, Alex, but a part of my frustration in dealing with you has stemmed from the way you have presented yourself, as well as your lack of answers to straightforward questions. And I'm not really just looking to "rip apart what (you) say with a net bias", but by the same token, if you constantly post things that have as many issues as your comments have shown, I'm going to point those out. You can take that on board, learn and grow from my comments (and those of others who have done the same), or continue to put your hands over your ears as you have done.

As for "If you really trained with a group..." (and all that follows that), you don't seem to have understood what I was referring to. In traditional Japanese martial arts, it's not unheard of for people to be killed during training, even up to relatively recently. And the cause of such injuries can very easily be down to a lack of proper respect being shown. I know of stories of, for example, a Judo instructor who was upset with a student... during the class, he pretty much drove the guy headfirst through the training floor, which broke underneath the student. It took him three goes to do that, by the way.

Bear in mind that the mentality of a large number of these systems is still highly combative. The opponent isn't referred to as "uke" (receiver), but "teki" (enemy). The aim is to kill your opponent, and that gets reflected in the training. As a result, proper respect is essential... the seniors and instructors are not people you want to tick off... but, without training in such systems, that mindset can be hard to understand, nor the amount of compassion that is contained in such training ideals.



Zenjael said:


> There are reason innumerable to take MA Chris. Those are not the only reasons, only the question I asked. you mentioned humility is relative, and it is. But that is what makes it difficult for some, and easier for others. The rituals of MA do not mesh well with everyone, and I know a number of artists who avoid all schools which promote off belts and paying for an exam. He abhors them, and under his definition most MA schools are McDojos, even reputable ones, simply based off his criteria that they promote based off money, ultimately. He is also among the most skilled artists I know- so I do not take his input lightly.



I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "all schools which promote off belts"... do you mean "profit off belts" (in other words, financially support or grow the school via charging a testing or promotion fee), or do you mean "promote (the school) off (the advancement through) belts (up to black belt)" (in other words, advertising that "you can be a black belt!" in order to attract students)?

But as far as "the rituals of MA", uh, what? Are you referring to the trappings, which vary widely from dojo to dojo, art to art, kwoon to gym, dojang to training hall? To take my case study, I train in some systems that have no charge, some that have constant charge (including ranking fees), ones that have a rank progression, and ones that don't feature it at all (in the form of belts, or kyu/dan grades).

Oh, and based on your previous demonstrated ability to ascertain skill, you'll forgive us if your assessment of your friend isn't taken as the most informed opinion (or, as you would say, opine...) around.

By the way, "opine" is completely wrong there. If you didn't pick that up... 



Zenjael said:


> However, I'll find many reacting negatively to such a comment, when the more common held view is a Mcdojo is not like those schools, in the sense they prioritize money and profit over learning, and expanding the art. It doesn't matter if a school is a Mcdojo, what matters is the student produced.



That's the thing, though, a McDojo (I think that's the first time I've used that term... hmm) produces sub-standard students due to sub-standard material and teaching, as the focus is not on the student's development.



Zenjael said:


> You'll find it a lot easier to communicate with me if you take a deep breath, lower your fists, and actually talk. Instead of attacking blindly, and pursuing a witch hunt. It's not worth your time and energy, nor mine to read a post where you're more interested in disagreeing, than talking. Maybe humility is not difficult to you because you have not found it- your attitude conveys that to me.



First off, like Elder, I have never claimed to be humble. My fists aren't raised, nor am I breathing shallow. There is no blind attack, instead there have been counters to your comments, as your comments have, by and large, been deeply flawed. That you have taken criticism (which you asked for, let's not forget) as attacks might betray your own lack of humility though... 

When it comes to your assessment of our communication, my desire to argue or talk, I might point out that I have been trying to discuss things with you by pointing out the issues with your statements, videos, and so on. You have not continued the discussion from your end, instead you have complained of attacks and made accusations of others intentions. This is how debate happens, Alex, you make your points, I counter them, you provide counters to my arguments, and so on until one of us convinces the other, or we reach an impasse. Not you make a comment, I provide counter argument, and you pick up the ball and go home, complaining that I don't want to talk....  



Zenjael said:


> I think if you look at the history of this thread- you'll find it not me being confrontational, nor who even initiates confrontation. Nor have I- when I defend myself from overly harsh accusation, then I am told I am trolling. It is rather funny, from my pov.
> 
> And if I have been rude- I have apologized time and again, yet received none myself.



I believe Tez was referring to your posts throughout the entire forum, not this thread specifically... and the main thrust of the comment was that I have tried to provide intelligent, coherent counters to your comments in order to provide debate. In other words, I have invited you to demonstrate your ability to debate properly. The way you have ignored advice that you yourself asked for, instead continuing with the same flawed rhetoric is what has had you thought a troll, as such behaviour is seen as deliberate and designed to incite the regular membership. If you think that being perceived as a troll, as rude, as clueless, as arrogant without basis, and largely ignorant, as well as being largely unschooled, or at least poorly schooled in a range of things, including martial arts and the simple act of communication is funny, well, that just supports the perception, really.



Zenjael said:


> But... this is also a forum, one I have seen likened to 'yankee stadium' and honestly... I think the pride on the board could be pulled back a tad. Know that historically, the only witches people have hunted were the ones, they with bias, accused of being witches. Enjoy your witch hunt.



There is no witch hunt, Alex. There really doesn't need to be, for the record.



Zenjael said:


> I advise re-reading it. What I wrote was, that most of the people hunted as witches, were only actually witches because they were accused of being so. That's another way to reitterate it.



Re-reading it didn't make the grammar any better...

But to address the point, uh, well, that's not really relevant. 



Zenjael said:


> Apologies for what may come off as rude, but, really? Since when is it not harsh, when to disagree the person then attacks my background. Would it be appropriate if you and I disagreed, so therefore your teacher must be the owner of a mcdojo, all of your teachers. When we disagree, are you given a reputation demerit for something you're actually agreeing, publicly, with the mod over? Have people legitimately asked if you are mentally retarded, because of a disagreement? At that point you should see that the only common thread between all 4 examples, and all the more I can give, is a personal bias toward me. Heck, I've got people heckling me over even the vernacular I use. Not even because of my martial arts, or what I can evidentially do. This is fair though- we all are allotted to our own opines.



Right.

First, and this has been said a large number of times now, the word you want is "opinion", not "opine". You can opine, but you cannot have opines. Seriously, if you are using the excuse that you write this way due to your academic requirements, stop it. Such mistakes would have essays returned with a remarkable amount of red ink... 

Now, to get to it, your background has been "attacked" (I would say "explored", or "commented on") as it is directly relevant to your understanding and the comments you have been coming up with here. There is another new poster here who has also been saying some very odd things (with even less correct grammar) who has also had his background questioned. When it is relevant, it isn't really an issue the way you seem to want it to be. And it's hardly an "unfair attack". Our appraisal of your teacher as leading a McDojo comes directly from your descriptions, you know. It really wasn't just out of the blue.

Again, rep discussions aren't allowed, but no, you don't get a rep ding for disagreeing, but you might for the way you disagree... 

Oh, and "evidentially"? Sigh....  



Zenjael said:


> I'm not trying to complain, for that would do nothing, but it is a matter of perspective, and put yourself in my shoes for two seconds. If I deliberately followed your posts, to pick them apart, it looks a lot different from where I'm standing, than where you are. And I assure you, that is what has been doing on.



Believe it or not, you're not being followed... my first post in this thread is on page 1, post 7. You didn't arrive until page 3, post 34. And I do keep up with the conversations I'm involved in.



Zenjael said:


> When joining the forum, I considered the site to be a place where we all come together to learn from each other. It was my mistake for assuming that. That is not what this forum about, nor how it even functions practically. This is a forum where being right matters, and this is conveyed in the behavior, and attitude of many of the posters when disagreeing.



"This is a forum where being right matters"...? Uh, what? Are you saying that we should just let you post incorrect information, bad ideas and understandings, just because we're supposed to be "friendly"? We let your posts stand as correct (by not arguing or questioning them) just to keep the peace? Dude, come off it. And if you believed that this is a place that people come together to learn (I'd agree, but that's not the only reason for the forum, for the record), why have you ignored the education and correction that has been offered you in the name of your learning?



Zenjael said:


> Now you can say I've done the same- but good luck finding evidence. The only posts I've picked apart are the ones where people tell me what I'm doing is flat out wrong. In the end it comes around full circle to the question of humility. The attitude on this forum, in large part to me, generally reflects the atmosphere of most other martial artists around the world. I'll be honest in saying that I need to be more humble- but in large part I would also say this forum has pride to tone down. And that probably is representative of the work that needs to be done around the world. More humility, less show.



The attitude on this forum, in large part to you, reflects the atmosphere of most martial artists? Do you think, perhaps, that listening to that majority of martial artists might then be the first step in your humility growth?



Zenjael said:


> I don't care about being right- I'd rather be wrong, it helps one to grow to be more wrong, than they are right. Just as fear, a weakness, is what ultimately forces us to grow.



Ah. No, then.

Look, to bring this to the topic, and explain why I've been a little more confrontational here, the topic of this thread is centered around humility in martial arts, and the simple fact is that you have not shown any so far at all. Here or elsewhere.


----------



## elder999

Chris Parker said:


> . The attitude on this forum, in large part to you, reflects the atmosphere of most martial artists? Do you think, perhaps, that listening to that majority of martial artists might then be the first step in your humility growth?
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. No, then.
> 
> Look, to bring this to the topic, and explain why I've been a little more confrontational here, the topic of this thread is centered around humility in martial arts, and the simple fact is that you have not shown any so far at all. Here or elsewhere.



*QFT*. :asian:


----------



## Big Don

MA-Caver said:


> The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.



I had to read that twice, I thought you said Texans and Marines...


----------



## Zenjael

Gnarlie said:


> Seriously....I can't understand you anymore dude.



That was awesome. I lol'd when I re-read my own words, with the jackie chan image beneath.



Jenna said:


> Thank you for your input.  I think you have the Bruce Lee quotation exactly correct, as I see it anyway.  Can you tell me please, if you are saying you have a huge ego, why you feel it necessary to temper your actions?  When has having a huge ego harmed you in a physical sense?  Do you find that bringing such an attitude to a fight has been to your benefit?  I am asking as open enquiry and appreciate your reply.  Thank you.



Let's see, practicing in public has led to people actually starting confrontations. I have in confrontations learned that I have some way of saying '*******' when incensed, that triggers people into wanting fights. This has happened twice in one year, and left me to completely re-evaluate how to go about confronting a person when they rip you off (say you give them 10 dollars for gas, and they foster 15 on you, and demand you pay on the spot, and you are short...).

From the boards, my attitude has been seen as arrogant, and unbecoming, because I cannot back it up with technique. I have found when sparring, the most humble thing you can do, for both parties involved, is when struck, to keep going. When you harm others, to ask if they are alright. Though that is pertinent more toward sparring, and impractical toward survival, I would venture that if you do self-defend and leave the other unconscious, you should put them in teh recovery position. 

Any fight I go into, I plan to be hurt, and hopefully will learn from my weaknesses. Both times I have been mugged, countless times I review the situation and critique where I should have done this instead... because if I've been mugged twice in my 22 years, because of my small size alone, I can only imagine if I hit the average life expectancy how many will try. I take it very seriously that I at least get to be at my next mugging, while experiencing the one going on, if you catch my drift. I think it important to have honesty with yourself, to know you did what you could, to the greatest ability possible, and that you are erred when you are erred.

Doubt is humble, I hope that answers what you asked.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Zenjael said:


> Both times I have been mugged, countless times I review the situation and critique where I should have done this instead... because if I've been mugged twice in my 22 years, because of my small size alone, I can only imagine if I hit the average life expectancy how many will try.



I am 50 years old and I have never been mugged.  

Aside from the usual high school brawls, most of the fighting I've done has been because it was my job in law enforcement to apprehend knuckleheads.  And since I haven't been involved in law enforcement since the 90's, I haven't been in a real fight since then either.

I have a sensei who has been in so many street and bar fights he has lost count of them.  He doesn't just lead an interesting life, he leads a 'Dos Equis' interesting life.

The difference?  What we do.  Where we go.  Who we know.  What we prefer.

You don't have to get mugged.  Much of the risk can be avoided by making smarter choices.  When discussing self-defense, one thing seldom talked about is how to avoid putting yourself in such situations.  Somehow, I manage it.  Why is that?  I live in the Detroit metro area, I am a part-time photographer, I hang in bad areas with rough people.  What keeps me safe?

One of the toughest martial artists I know is 70 years old.  A retired auto worker, he doesn't feel pain, rides a Harley and looks the part, and he hits like a truck; he doesn't even know his own strength.  He told me that his brother was a better martial artist than he is; he was so good he used to go from dojo to dojo, challenging everybody to fight him and he always won.  He started fights in bars just for fun.  Then at age 27, he challenged a man in a bar to a fight and the man drew a revolver and shot him directly between the eyes.

Sometimes we make our own destiny.  Muggings might happen; part of it is chance.  But no, I do not think one can anticipate a certain number of muggings in one's life.  It just doesn't have to be that way.

Train hard and don't be stupid; these are two lessons that work for me.  I think that looking back from 50, I can say it's a valid theory.


----------



## Tez3

Zenjael said:


> That was awesome. I lol'd when I re-read my own words, with the jackie chan image beneath.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see, practicing in public has led to people actually starting confrontations. I have in confrontations learned that I have some way of saying '*******' when incensed, that triggers people into wanting fights. This has happened twice in one year, and left me to completely re-evaluate how to go about confronting a person when they rip you off (say you give them 10 dollars for gas, and they foster 15 on you, and demand you pay on the spot, and you are short...).
> 
> Foster? You don't have pumps at petrol stations then?
> 
> From the boards, my attitude has been seen as arrogant, and unbecoming, because I cannot back it up with technique. I have found when sparring, the most humble thing you can do, for both parties involved, is when struck, to keep going. When you harm others, to ask if they are alright. Though that is pertinent more toward sparring, and impractical toward survival, I would venture that if you do self-defend and leave the other unconscious, you should put them in teh recovery position.
> 
> That's not humble that's common sense. Self defend? You would venture?
> 
> Any fight I go into, I plan to be hurt, and hopefully will learn from my weaknesses. Both times I have been mugged, countless times I review the situation and critique where I should have done this instead... because if I've been mugged twice in my 22 years, because of my small size alone, I can only imagine if I hit the average life expectancy how many will try. I take it very seriously that I at least get to be at my next mugging, while experiencing the one going on, if you catch my drift. I think it important to have honesty with yourself, to know you did what you could, to the greatest ability possible, and that you are erred when you are erred.
> 
> I don't think anyone planns to get hurt, they may accept they are going to get hurt in an altercation but not plan to, that's not good practice. 'You have erred when you have erred? Care to explain that one?
> 
> Doubt is humble, I hope that answers what you asked.



Doubt is doubt, it's not humble, it's just doubt.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna,

I am sorry for being late to the discussion. 



Jenna said:


> I think it is a stupid question to ask, yes?


The only real stupid question is the one left unasked. 





Jenna said:


> Of course humility is necessary in MA.  Without humility we would feel an excessive conceit that would not be reined in until we suffered damage to our ego and perhaps more dangerously, to our very safety.



I can see this. 



Jenna said:


> Humility is a virtue. I think true humility is a beautiful and powerful trait in all that have it.



Yes true humility are as you describe. False humility can be ... 



Jenna said:


> Those who do not demonstrate humility on the other hand, we have trouble with in our teaching.  When our student has no humility the lessons are lost on them and then we are talking into to a hollow head.  They are vessels filled to give only a bad reflection upon us as teachers.



I call it Blue Belt "Blues". They have some knowledge and they think they can take on the world. The point is to get them through this in class and not in the real world where they might get seriously hurt. 



Jenna said:


> Yet I think there is perhaps another lesson?
> 
> In certain aspects of our martial art, humility is necessary.  However, when an attitude of humility and deference is demanded through the environment and becomes assimiliated into the consciousness of the student then that is sometimes counterproductive and frequently contradictory in teaching fighting skills.



I can see your point. If you have removed the agreesion and or fighting spirit form someone how do you put it back in but only when and where it is required? Good Question if I understand you. 




Jenna said:


> I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary.  Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson



I agree.



Jenna said:


> I would say that in a martial arts fighting environment then conceit is necessary.  Any humility in the fight will give your opponent advantage.



It can give your opponent an advantage. If you let them. You can still be humble. You can still present a verbal or physical defense without being a braggart or insulting. 
I was at a bar/restaurant with some friends. I was trying to eat my meal at a table. A booth over 5 feet away was groing in people and they kept backing into me and hitting me whiel I tried to put a fork in my mouth. I asked them to pay attention. I asked them to give me some space. After a few times one of the drunks mouthed off and said shut up you fat old man. I replied, I know when I get you you are going to hit me and knock me out. When I hit the ground and hit my head and go into a siezure I will trash around and break your ankle. You will hit the floor with your head and you will be in the hospital with me. His reply was HELL YEAH! I will knock you out. His slightly less drunk friends looked at me and said let's go. They moved on and I ate my meal. 



Jenna said:


> I would say that it is up to the teacher to teach this lesson.  It is up to the student to adopt this teaching.



Yes it is. 



Jenna said:


> I would say to close that the humility we must demonstrate in learning should be commensurate with the significance (to us) of the teacher who is teaching and the lesson being taught.  And but I would say conversely that for the ultimate adversary, then the ultimate conceit is mandated.



Yes and no. I grant that for learning I agree. For the adversary, not always. I go in thinking I will win. I do not go in thinking I will not get hit or hurt or injured. 



Jenna said:


> Perhaps I have not thought this through correctly.  What is your opinion of this?  I am grateful to receive your thoughts.  Thank you.



There are no absolutes. Every move has a counter. Everyone gets hit.


----------



## Jenna

elder999 said:


> Oh, I miss him!
> 
> GREAT party, though!!



And what secrets would he have told had he not been suicided.  A waste in so many more ways than one.


----------



## Jenna

elder999 said:


> There are also numerous things that I've accomplished-professionally and physically being just two examples-that I wouldn't have if it weren't for my ego. I'd have simply listened to people who said I couldn't , or that it couldn't be done.


thank you for this entire post.  I am particularly interested in this please.  In matters of giving free rein to your ego can I ask please is there any method beyond gut feeling in determining who among the experts you should listen to and who you should not listen to?  I appreciate that is a question that invites a just do whatever reply.  I am interested in knowing how you do this in the face of many experts which I think you both are yourself and work alongside and whose screwdrivers you might disarm them of, how do you know which to heed and which to push aside shouting Smithers, unleash my ego!  And another point, sorry to ask too many questions, if EVERYONE of those experts is telling you to step down off your ego platform only your ego feels that to do so is detrimental, how to you realise the power in your own conceit to break away and trust yourself?  Sorry again and but thank you for taking the time to reply.  I am grateful.


----------



## Jenna

Chris Parker said:


> Ah, my dearest J, I am on no witch hunt... and I'm not being confrontational here yet. I understand where you're coming from, but my take is slightly less forgiving for reasons that I hope to convey and expand upon here...


Christopher, well if you are on a witch hunt then that is your business and it is not for me to criticise only I am interested in is learning how other people think and that is difficult in the middle of an accusative discussion, that is all.  If I am permitted to ask a question then it is not for me to blockade any witch hunt or not.  

I think there is something to be learned from every person, do you not?  Even if it is not the thing that person might be teaching.  I think we are all teachers of something as we are all students of something.  I think both are necessary for the other.  If I am a teacher, can I not still learn from a student?  That is all I am interested in, learning about people and how people work.  My dad who was my sage told me that to understand how someone thinks is worth a foot in reach.  I do not know if you understand this.  I like to know what people think and why they think what they think.  That is all.  It is difficult to ascertain these things in the middle of an argument whether it is a witch hunt or not.  

Perhaps he really is a witch or a martial heretic with the evil eye.  I do not know.  I do know that his ego is not threat to my ego.  His opinion is no threat to my opinion.  

I hope you are good, Jx


----------



## Bill Mattocks

With regard to Elder's post about eating in a restaurant...

A few years ago, my father died.  My family and I gathered in East Peoria, Illinois to bury him.  We got together at a local restaurant to eat lunch, and I was lost in my thoughts, missing him, hurting.

I guess I was staring out into space, but apparently a restaurant patron thought I was staring at him.  He got up and came over to our table and started shouting at me.  He thought I was challenging him to fight.  He wanted to fight.

I apologized and attempted to explain that my father had just died and we were there to bury him and I must have just been staring into space and he thought I was staring at him, but he wasn't buying it.  He was so angry he was shaking, and his hands were balled up into fists.  He was a gross little fat man and I had no doubt I could knock him into next week.  But I wasn't there to fight, I was there to bury my dad.

I looked him in the face, apologized again, and offered to buy his lunch.  I said "Let's be friends, there is no need for anger here.  I'm sorry I offended you."

He said "You're not going to buy me anything!  I'm going to kick your ***!"

I said, "Then kick my ***.  I'm not going to fight back and you are going to be arrested, especially after making threats in front of all these witnesses.  I'll get a bloody nose and you will go to jail."

He stood there for a second and then screamed "**** you!" and went and sat down at his table.  I kept my eyes on my plate the rest of the time we were there.

Yeah, I was innocent of any wrongdoing.  Yes, I probably could have kicked his ***.  Yes, I would probably have even been in the right legally to do so.  So what?  I avoided the whole thing by apologizing.  No skin off my nose.  I'm still a man, my testicles are intact and swinging.  Life goes on.

Humility?  Cowardice?  I don't get wrapped up with concepts like that.  It's all self-defense to me, and self-defense means taking the path that does not lead to violence if it is possible to do so; because when you fight, you may win but you may lose, and I don't like getting punched that much anyway.


----------



## Jenna

Zenjael said:


> Any fight I go into, I plan to be hurt, and hopefully will learn from my weaknesses. Both times I have been mugged, countless times I review the situation and critique where I should have done this instead... because if I've been mugged twice in my 22 years, because of my small size alone, I can only imagine if I hit the average life expectancy how many will try. I take it very seriously that I at least get to be at my next mugging, while experiencing the one going on, if you catch my drift. I think it important to have honesty with yourself, to know you did what you could, to the greatest ability possible, and that you are erred when you are erred.


Like you I am also not so burly.  Like you I have been a victim, as have many others either here or not here.  I am sorry that you have had this experience.  I know it is not something that is quickly put away from our mind.  I am sorry to hear that you are having to look to your next mugging as though perhaps it is a statistical inevitability.  These things are statistical _possibilities _that is very true.  Otherwise many of us would feel less of a need to train as we do.  Still, I hope you are able to avoid allowing that possibility to invite fear into your training 

I think the deference and humility in me might have tried to persuade me that I am a victim through my own doing.  This is one place I think where humility is not so good.

I think if my situation is anything like yours (and I would not be presumptuous for a second to think it were) and but I train with a humility that comes from knowing I am breakable, as I have proven to myself.  I am not without flaw.  Yet it is not for other people to tell me how flawed I am.  It is not for me to tell other people how flawed they are either.  I would rather be shown how to improve than be made even more aware of my flaws.  And so I think it is rather for me to ask advice and decide whether or not to take that advice.  If I thought I were perfect in my defence I would go away and be perfectly happy among the foul mouth hoodies and antisocials that live here.  And but I know I am not and so that is why I think conceit benefits me nothing in this place (use what works and you throw the rest away as Bruce Lee would exhort )

There are people on the mats, off the mats, in work, in real life and even online like here that can teach me things I do not know that are in my own interest.  Perhaps you are one of them 

And but the thing for me is that I train with humility because I have the marks that show me how breakable I am, and still I will fight as though I am invincible, even if I am not, and even though I know I am not, and even when the adversary is such that to think of myself as anything more than dirt under their foot, would prove to me that I am totally dumb.  Still, when you have a fight like that, I think there is nothing else to do only adopt conceit in my infallibility as to think of fallibility in an objective sense is to invite defeat closer.  This is why I am interested in experience such as yours and to know how to wisely deploy a conceit in an ability that may not even be there.  I am not certain that I am particularly lucid in typing these things or if I make any sense at all and but I welcome your thoughts, and if not, thank you for contributing.


----------



## Jenna

Bill Mattocks said:


> With regard to Elder's post about eating in a restaurant...
> 
> A few years ago, my father died.  My family and I gathered in East Peoria, Illinois to bury him.  We got together at a local restaurant to eat lunch, and I was lost in my thoughts, missing him, hurting.
> 
> I guess I was staring out into space, but apparently a restaurant patron thought I was staring at him.  He got up and came over to our table and started shouting at me.  He thought I was challenging him to fight.  He wanted to fight.
> 
> I apologized and attempted to explain that my father had just died and we were there to bury him and I must have just been staring into space and he thought I was staring at him, but he wasn't buying it.  He was so angry he was shaking, and his hands were balled up into fists.  He was a gross little fat man and I had no doubt I could knock him into next week.  But I wasn't there to fight, I was there to bury my dad.
> 
> I looked him in the face, apologized again, and offered to buy his lunch.  I said "Let's be friends, there is no need for anger here.  I'm sorry I offended you."
> 
> He said "You're not going to buy me anything!  I'm going to kick your ***!"
> 
> I said, "Then kick my ***.  I'm not going to fight back and you are going to be arrested, especially after making threats in front of all these witnesses.  I'll get a bloody nose and you will go to jail."
> 
> He stood there for a second and then screamed "**** you!" and went and sat down at his table.  I kept my eyes on my plate the rest of the time we were there.
> 
> Yeah, I was innocent of any wrongdoing.  Yes, I probably could have kicked his ***.  Yes, I would probably have even been in the right legally to do so.  So what?  I avoided the whole thing by apologizing.  No skin off my nose.  I'm still a man, my testicles are intact and swinging.  Life goes on.
> 
> Humility?  Cowardice?  I don't get wrapped up with concepts like that.  It's all self-defense to me, and self-defense means taking the path that does not lead to violence if it is possible to do so; because when you fight, you may win but you may lose, and I don't like getting punched that much anyway.


I am sorry to hear of this experience.  I do not know sometimes what is what with people and why they are this way?  It is beyond my understanding.  And to compose yourself this way I think is a testament to not only your terribly sad and distraught situation and but your ability as a martial artist to think in a crisis and to diffuse.  I think your father would be proud in his way.  Perhaps that was his intercession.  I am glad you all walked away.  I do not think I would have your aptitude for logic in this situation.  I would have got this also.. Are you looking at my bf?  Perhaps some of us have targets on our forheads that are only visible to others pffft.. 

And then is it ok if I ask you a hypothetical question?  can I ask you please in a hypothetical sense if this unpleasant character approached you with a major malfunction and he was smaller in stature than you and shaking and you were not afraid of him?  And then can I ask in another situation say, perhaps you and your family are out for a meal and the similar thing were to unfortunately happen.  A similar sociopath interjects in a physically threatening and perhaps abusive manner.  I do not know if I can paint this hypothetical picture accurately.. would your reaction alter do you think were he of significantly greater stature and made you yourself feel physically threatened, or perhaps was incensed at one of your party and not you?  With that in mind, and a feeling that you were perhaps looking down the barrel or blade with the odds against you and yet this is not a fight you are going to avoid and there is no time for 911 to react, do you at that point invoke any kind of conceit (no matter how foolish)?  

Is conceit, even if it is an affectation of a conceit in one's own invincibility ever prudent in a grave physical situation?

I am sorry if this is a bridge too far.  I appreciate it is perhaps incongruent.  I do not mean to push a question upon you.  I am grateful for your contribution.  Thank you.


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:


> It can give your opponent an advantage. If you let them. You can still be humble. You can still present a verbal or physical defense without being a braggart or insulting.
> I was at a bar/restaurant with some friends. I was trying to eat my meal at a table. A booth over 5 feet away was groing in people and they kept backing into me and hitting me whiel I tried to put a fork in my mouth. I asked them to pay attention. I asked them to give me some space. After a few times one of the drunks mouthed off and said shut up you fat old man. I replied, I know when I get you you are going to hit me and knock me out. When I hit the ground and hit my head and go into a siezure I will trash around and break your ankle. You will hit the floor with your head and you will be in the hospital with me. His reply was HELL YEAH! I will knock you out. His slightly less drunk friends looked at me and said let's go. They moved on and I ate my meal.


Thank you Rich for your post, you have a way to make sense of things I can overcomplicate.  And see your example, you have no fear and because you are an imposing character with a fighting skill to back you up.  Let me ask you have you ever had to affect a belief in yourself even when you did not believe it?  You have said you always go to an adversary thinking you will win.  Is there ever a time where your adversary is such that humility would be expected.  Imagine in some bizarre situation, your adversary was someone you knew had the makings of you; whom you knew would defeat you and whom you knew you should be humble before.  And yet they are bringing a fight to you.  Common sense tells you to have humility, accept your weakness in the face of this opponent.  And yet your opponent will not allow you that luxury.  How do you utilise a firm belief in yourself and your abilities even when you do not believe it in this case?  I do not know if that is clear to understand.  I welcome your thoughts as ever and appreciate your post very much as I always do.  Thank you my friend.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Jenna said:


> And then is it ok if I ask you a hypothetical question?  can I ask you please in a hypothetical sense if this unpleasant character approached you with a major malfunction and he was smaller in stature than you and shaking and you were not afraid of him?  And then can I ask in another situation say, perhaps you and your family are out for a meal and the similar thing were to unfortunately happen.  A similar sociopath interjects in a physically threatening and perhaps abusive manner.  I do not know if I can paint this hypothetical picture accurately.. would your reaction alter do you think were he of significantly greater stature and made you yourself feel physically threatened, or perhaps was incensed at one of your party and not you?  With that in mind, and a feeling that you were perhaps looking down the barrel or blade with the odds against you and yet this is not a fight you are going to avoid and there is no time for 911 to react, do you at that point invoke any kind of conceit (no matter how foolish)?
> 
> Is conceit, even if it is an affectation of a conceit in one's own invincibility ever prudent in a grave physical situation?
> 
> I am sorry if this is a bridge too far.  I appreciate it is perhaps incongruent.  I do not mean to push a question upon you.  I am grateful for your contribution.  Thank you.



I don't mind the question, but I'm not sure I understand it.  Are you asking if I would press the 'go' button if I had felt threatened?  I don't know.  I depend upon my instincts.  If it seems right to fight, I do not hesitate.  I just think often it's not necessary.


----------



## Zenjael

> "even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full". In  fact, that's kinda the opposite of what the story says (but isn't part  of what Bruce was addressing); it actively argues against having your  cup full as a real and present danger when seeking to learn and advance.



I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention. What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full. You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over? Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started. It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.

In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?


----------



## The Last Legionary

Zenjael said:


> I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention. What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full. You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over? Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started. It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.
> 
> In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?



What you need is :btg:


No humility is not necessary in the martial arts. Martial Arts are for fighting. If you want to develop humility, study philosophy. Sure some schools include it in their slogans and mission statements, but being humble is not a fighting skill. In my opinion.


----------



## elder999

Zenjael said:
			
		

> . You think I'm the one who needs humility?



Yup. Pretty much. 

Hey-there's a Matsushita Kyokushin club at GMU-you ought to check them out. Seriously. It'd do you some good, I think........


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:


> Thank you Rich for your post, you have a way to make sense of things I can overcomplicate.



As with everything it all depends upon your experiences. 



Jenna said:


> And see your example, you have no fear and because you are an imposing character with a fighting skill to back you up.




I have fear. I fear for my life. I fear for injury. I fear for injury or life of others. I choose to act. See below for some of those actions. 



Jenna said:


> Let me ask you have you ever had to affect a belief in yourself even when you did not believe it?



Recently, at work all the time. I have been told I scare people. Why? Because I work with introverts and I look people in the eye. I walk down the hallway and I say Hi to them. This is scary to them. So I have to affect a lessor person, someone with less confidence and with less presence. It is hard work. So I understand your comments and questions. 



Jenna said:


> You have said you always go to an adversary thinking you will win.



Win is a variable. If I know I will die, I want to make sure they go with me. If I am going to get hurt, I make sure they will get hurt as well. So my win is variable, and a loose for many. 



Jenna said:


> Is there ever a time where your adversary is such that humility would be expected.  Imagine in some bizarre situation, your adversary was someone you knew had the makings of you; whom you knew would defeat you and whom you knew you should be humble before.  And yet they are bringing a fight to you.  Common sense tells you to have humility, accept your weakness in the face of this opponent.  And yet your opponent will not allow you that luxury.  How do you utilise a firm belief in yourself and your abilities even when you do not believe it in this case?



In Michigan we have an event called the Dream Cruise. They shut down a major roadway. A few years ago I was trying to get across town and this road closing before it happened. I missed it by a minute of two. Last car to not make it through. So I tried to go around. I ended up on the wrong street in the wrong neighborhood. The street I was on went form two way to a right turn oneway and there were vehicles parked on side of the street and a guy stopped in the other lane talking to a guy on a porch. A vehicle had pulled out and was right behind me. Basically I was funneled into a trap. All locals where the same colors. I was dressed wrong and with a convertible in the wrong place. I stopped. I turned to the guy on the porch and said, "I am made a wrong turn. I am in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do not care what you and your friends are doing. I am not here to find anyone or get anything. I just want to get to other side of town. Would you mind if I just went over there (** and I pointed off in the distance to the next major road **). I am not a cop. And I am asking you politely. Please?" The guy in the street looked at the guy on the porch. He thought about it for a minute. He nodded and then said, " Either you are the dumbest cop, or what you say you are." I nodded to him. He then said, "Ok, Go." The guy in the street got in his car and moved it back so I could get by. 

But, once I realized I was cornered, I had a backup plan. My plan was to hit the guy in the street and pinch him between my car and his and jump up on the curb and use his car as cover from the porch while getting low from the person behind me in their car. Yes, I would have lost, as I might have killed someone. Damaged my car and or been shot. But I had a plan to escape. I am not sure if they let me go for being dumb and honest in the wrong place, or because they read me and knew I would try to escape. 


Another case was when I had a pistol pulled and pointed in my face. I knew he was mostly posturing. His friends were surpised. I knew he would be one of those who if pushed would pull the trigger to show he would not be afraid to do the deed. My first thoughts were to try to get to him before he cleared his pants. But he had real baggy pants and pockets and it was pointed at me in his pocket as he was pulling it out. I could not get there. So I grabbed his friend and used him as a body shield. Of course the hold in his neck made him feel like I was going to break it. Or move to choke him out. I told him if he shot me he would shoot his friend. His friend was screaming don't shoot me over and over. 

After mu initial comment I let his friends handle it. I let them go to their vehicles. On their way out they stopped so he could ask me, "Should I shoot you know?" I had used some vehicles to block most of it but I was trapped. So I stepped forward swinging a set of keys on a lanyard. Of course I stepped behind him where he was in the front seat of the truck. He was right handed and I was swinging to hit his hand/arm and keep it pointed away from me. They took off fast. 

And yes there was fear. 



Jenna said:


> I do not know if that is clear to understand.  I welcome your thoughts as ever and appreciate your post very much as I always do.  Thank you my friend.



Do these examples cover your questions?


----------



## Tez3

The Last Legionary said:


> What you need is :btg:
> 
> 
> No humility is not necessary in the martial arts. Martial Arts are for fighting. If you want to develop humility, study philosophy. Sure some schools include it in their slogans and mission statements, but being humble is not a fighting skill. In my opinion.



He's right you know. Often instructions telling you to be humble are a way of putting you down, making sure you 'know your place' as in many class systems. Being self effacing/modest though however is a different thing. Humble comes with a definition of deference or of submission which I don't believe is good certainly not for fighting/self defence. Being modest however is a good virtue to have.

Being told that one should be humble always makes me think of Dicken's Uriah Heep, ugh.


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:


> As with everything it all depends upon your experiences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have fear. I fear for my life. I fear for injury. I fear for injury or life of others. I choose to act. See below for some of those actions.
> 
> 
> 
> Recently, at work all the time. I have been told I scare people. Why? Because I work with introverts and I look people in the eye. I walk down the hallway and I say Hi to them. This is scary to them. So I have to affect a lessor person, someone with less confidence and with less presence. It is hard work. So I understand your comments and questions.
> 
> 
> 
> Win is a variable. If I know I will die, I want to make sure they go with me. If I am going to get hurt, I make sure they will get hurt as well. So my win is variable, and a loose for many.
> 
> 
> 
> In Michigan we have an event called the Dream Cruise. They shut down a major roadway. A few years ago I was trying to get across town and this road closing before it happened. I missed it by a minute of two. Last car to not make it through. So I tried to go around. I ended up on the wrong street in the wrong neighborhood. The street I was on went form two way to a right turn oneway and there were vehicles parked on side of the street and a guy stopped in the other lane talking to a guy on a porch. A vehicle had pulled out and was right behind me. Basically I was funneled into a trap. All locals where the same colors. I was dressed wrong and with a convertible in the wrong place. I stopped. I turned to the guy on the porch and said, "I am made a wrong turn. I am in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do not care what you and your friends are doing. I am not here to find anyone or get anything. I just want to get to other side of town. Would you mind if I just went over there (** and I pointed off in the distance to the next major road **). I am not a cop. And I am asking you politely. Please?" The guy in the street looked at the guy on the porch. He thought about it for a minute. He nodded and then said, " Either you are the dumbest cop, or what you say you are." I nodded to him. He then said, "Ok, Go." The guy in the street got in his car and moved it back so I could get by.
> 
> But, once I realized I was cornered, I had a backup plan. My plan was to hit the guy in the street and pinch him between my car and his and jump up on the curb and use his car as cover from the porch while getting low from the person behind me in their car. Yes, I would have lost, as I might have killed someone. Damaged my car and or been shot. But I had a plan to escape. I am not sure if they let me go for being dumb and honest in the wrong place, or because they read me and knew I would try to escape.
> 
> 
> Another case was when I had a pistol pulled and pointed in my face. I knew he was mostly posturing. His friends were surpised. I knew he would be one of those who if pushed would pull the trigger to show he would not be afraid to do the deed. My first thoughts were to try to get to him before he cleared his pants. But he had real baggy pants and pockets and it was pointed at me in his pocket as he was pulling it out. I could not get there. So I grabbed his friend and used him as a body shield. Of course the hold in his neck made him feel like I was going to break it. Or move to choke him out. I told him if he shot me he would shoot his friend. His friend was screaming don't shoot me over and over.
> 
> After mu initial comment I let his friends handle it. I let them go to their vehicles. On their way out they stopped so he could ask me, "Should I shoot you know?" I had used some vehicles to block most of it but I was trapped. So I stepped forward swinging a set of keys on a lanyard. Of course I stepped behind him where he was in the front seat of the truck. He was right handed and I was swinging to hit his hand/arm and keep it pointed away from me. They took off fast.
> 
> And yes there was fear.
> 
> 
> 
> Do these examples cover your questions?


Rich, thank you again my friend for posting your thoughts and experiences, I think you have altered my perception of some things and I am grateful for that.  I am glad you are still intact after having been in so many hazardous and dangerous situations.  I think fear is a given, even though we try to put it to the back.  I think fear in the face of a much more competent adversary be that on mats or elsewhere causes me particularly to revert to a humility that I do not think is always appropriate.  While I think conceit (and particularly the extreme of it which can verge on delusion) is a negative mindset and but in certain situations, I think it can be useful?  I do not even mean self-belief as I think self-belief permits the possibility of defeat.  I mean the kind of conceit that will not even consider defeat a possibility.  Do you think that is a mindset that can be a good thing?  Or is it foolish, particularly in a defensive situation?  Thank you again Rich.


----------



## Chris Parker

Wow, this is your reply? Kid, pay attention...



Zenjael said:


> I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention.



You're questioning my insight into martial arts? You, who have so far shown no understanding of martial arts techniques, methodologies, histories, philosophies, concepts, or anything else. You have said that your using of a step (okay, your friends using of a step) which had nothing to do with kouchi gari showed that you had Judo in your sparring video... that your use of a sword-edge hand strike showed that you had some Isshin Ryu... heaven only knows what made you think there was anything close to Aikido in it... and then tried to justify it all by saying that what was there were "aspects" of individual techniques or technical methods of such systems (even when such "aspects" were shown to be nothing like what is actually found in the systems you claim to have taken them from), which showed you as having no knowledge of what makes something a part of a particular art in the first place, as you can't see past the most basic (and inaccurate) way of looking at martial arts... but it's my insight into martial arts that's in question?

Son, you are decades away from being close to talking with me about these things. Your avoidance of even some of the most basic questions, as well as the answers you've offered to others, is nothing but evidence that you really are out of your depth here. 

And, just to seal the damn question... the quote itself has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with martial arts in the slightest! So for you to use it as an example of my lack of understanding and insight is, in itself, a huge indication of your lack of understanding and insight... hmm, such irony... 

For the record, the story itself is concerned with an academic scholar, who has read all he can on the topic of Zen Buddhism, and goes to a Zen Buddhist master to seek education on the topic. Instead of listening to the master, he begins talking about how much he knows, putting forth his own beliefs and theories, based on no real experience or understanding whatsoever. The master just smiles, and offers his guest some tea. He then pours the tea into a cup, but when the tea reaches the lip of the vessel, he continues to pour. The scholar watches this, but finally cannot contain himself, and erupts, asking "Can't you see the cup is full! Why do you keep pouring tea, nothing more can go in there!" The master smiles, and answers "You are like this cup... so full of your own beliefs and ideas... no matter how much I would give you, nothing more can go in there. You must empty your cup, if you wish to learn something more than you currently know." The scholar finally understood, and stopped talking so he could hear the wisdom of the mater.

Hmm, it might be appropriate for you to re-read that a few hundred more times. But you might notice that there is no mention of martial arts in the story, it is centered on Zen Buddhism, with no connection to martial arts. Try again.



Zenjael said:


> What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full.



What the hell? I quoted your exact words, Alex. You completely missed the point of the story, as well as Bruce's quote you know... and this thing you're saying now makes no sense at all.



Zenjael said:


> You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over?



No, Alex, I assign the property of "fullness" to something when it's full... I don't know what you're going on about.



Zenjael said:


> Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started.



What?!? When a cup is full, it overflows, and empties? Uh, no, it doesn't. There is spillage over the top, as the cup cannot contain the excess, but it doesn't make what is in the cup already suddenly empty... if that was your "subtle point", yeah, I didn't get that. Mainly as it is:
a) Not supported by the story, the quote, or your words
b) Not supported by the way liquids work in cups
c) Completely missing from what you said earlier, and
d) A frankly ludicrous idea in the first place.



Zenjael said:


> It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.



And in this sentence, I think you've given up on logic, reason, or making sense whatsoever. It is not impossible for a cup to be full. There is nothing abject (which means wretched, or hopeless, most miserable etc) about a full cup, nor is there anything arbitrary about it (it's the central aspect of the story). And what is humility in all this?!?



Zenjael said:


> In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?



Son, I think you need to look back at what you've posted, and perhaps look back at mine, and try again. You may also look at both yours and my reputations for some indication as to who is possessing of the deeper insight here. And I think you need a reality check far more than you need humility... but you may find they go hand in hand.


The Last Legionary said:


> What you need is :btg:
> 
> 
> No humility is not necessary in the martial arts. Martial Arts are for fighting. If you want to develop humility, study philosophy. Sure some schools include it in their slogans and mission statements, but being humble is not a fighting skill. In my opinion.



For using martial arts, agreed. For learning them, though, humility (the recognition that you have gaps that can be improved upon, and can put yourself under someone else's guidance) is needed in some form. So, for martial arts, nope, not needed. But for learning martial arts it is.


----------



## Brian King

opcorn:
When in the military (decades ago) it used to be great entertainment to observe two privates, one who enlisted on the evening of the 19th of the month and the other the morning of the 20th, arguing about who outranked who based on time in service and time in grade. Kind of like reading ego/insecurity driven postings on humility. As Jenna has previously stated up thread all have something to teach and I for one applaud all the posters contributing to the conversations. They provide lessons, examples, and entertainment even if currently unaware of it themselves. 

Onwards
Brian King


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:


> Rich, thank you again my friend for posting your thoughts and experiences, I think you have altered my perception of some things and I am grateful for that.  I am glad you are still intact after having been in so many hazardous and dangerous situations.  I think fear is a given, even though we try to put it to the back.  I think fear in the face of a much more competent adversary be that on mats or elsewhere causes me particularly to revert to a humility that I do not think is always appropriate.  While I think conceit (and particularly the extreme of it which can verge on delusion) is a negative mindset and but in certain situations, I think it can be useful?  I do not even mean self-belief as I think self-belief permits the possibility of defeat.  I mean the kind of conceit that will not even consider defeat a possibility.




Jenna, I never really did get into the sparring for fun. I can go out and play and try things out. I know I will get hit. I know I may loose and I am really not worried as I was able to test some things. I understand people have different mindsets and different goals in their training. Please do not take my comments as you or anyone else should think about changing because I have said something. 

If what I have said makes or causes you to think and you choose all on your own to change then I support your change. :~)




Jenna said:


> Do you think that is a mindset that can be a good thing?  Or is it foolish, particularly in a defensive situation?  Thank you again Rich.



I accept the defeat. I was teaching a class early on. Someone came in and wanted to watch I let them. I started asking them questions if they were insterested. The guy got arrogant and stated he thought he could beat me at sparring. 

I told him I had already lost. He looked happy and nodded his head. One of my students asked me Why had I already lost. I explained. The challenge has been issued. I have lost. If I refuse the challenge I will loose in the minds of him and the students. If I accept and he wins then I loose the same as above. If I accept and win, then I loose as I have used violence for a non event. I may also loose if he decides to take me to court. 

I then countered with the following. I accept my loss. Yet I request that he give me time to let the students change and leave. I would lock the doors so no one could get in. It was also a place with no windows to see in, being that they were boarded over given the neighborhood. We would then fight it out. No rules. Just the two of us and the winner would know and the looser would know, but I would be able to defend my self in court later. 

The guy was angry now. He was being called out for a private fight. He then started mumbling about about rules. I told him we could not settle this with his rules. So no rules was the only way to approach this. He got up and left. One student did ask why I did not just get him on the matts and show him first. I explained the legal issues. I knew he would not sign a waiver and I also knew he would be one to call the cops if he got a bruise or worse. I lost that student, but kept the rest and did not go to court. 

From this I took a simple rule for myself. Yes there can be a sparring match between two people to solve the issues. 
1) First match is by their rules - it must not be a marathon, but physcial confrontation, from arm wrestling to point fighting.
2) Second match would be by my rules. 
3) Third match no rules empty hand fighting. 

All three matches must be fought in the same day. If you cannot move forward then you are out. 

NOTE: This is not a challenge to anyone on this forum for that is against the rules and not allowed. It is only a statement within a story. 

To answer you question another way: Yes it can be a good thing. As long as you understand that the lack of defeat as a possibility means you are alive to continue on to the next day. Then yes. If not then as stated by you and others, your ego and personality will take a lot of hits. As with my example above, I got through the event with no confrontation and the least amount of loss to myself and others. In an absolute sense it was a loss and not a win. In another sense I am still teaching ( and working as an engineer) and not paying of some law suit.


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:


> Jenna, I never really did get into the sparring for fun. I can go out and play and try things out. I know I will get hit. I know I may loose and I am really not worried as I was able to test some things. I understand people have different mindsets and different goals in their training. Please do not take my comments as you or anyone else should think about changing because I have said something.
> 
> If what I have said makes or causes you to think and you choose all on your own to change then I support your change. :~)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I accept the defeat. I was teaching a class early on. Someone came in and wanted to watch I let them. I started asking them questions if they were insterested. The guy got arrogant and stated he thought he could beat me at sparring.
> 
> I told him I had already lost. He looked happy and nodded his head. One of my students asked me Why had I already lost. I explained. The challenge has been issued. I have lost. If I refuse the challenge I will loose in the minds of him and the students. If I accept and he wins then I loose the same as above. If I accept and win, then I loose as I have used violence for a non event. I may also loose if he decides to take me to court.
> 
> I then countered with the following. I accept my loss. Yet I request that he give me time to let the students change and leave. I would lock the doors so no one could get in. It was also a place with no windows to see in, being that they were boarded over given the neighborhood. We would then fight it out. No rules. Just the two of us and the winner would know and the looser would know, but I would be able to defend my self in court later.
> 
> The guy was angry now. He was being called out for a private fight. He then started mumbling about about rules. I told him we could not settle this with his rules. So no rules was the only way to approach this. He got up and left. One student did ask why I did not just get him on the matts and show him first. I explained the legal issues. I knew he would not sign a waiver and I also knew he would be one to call the cops if he got a bruise or worse. I lost that student, but kept the rest and did not go to court.
> 
> From this I took a simple rule for myself. Yes there can be a sparring match between two people to solve the issues.
> 1) First match is by their rules - it must not be a marathon, but physcial confrontation, from arm wrestling to point fighting.
> 2) Second match would be by my rules.
> 3) Third match no rules empty hand fighting.
> 
> All three matches must be fought in the same day. If you cannot move forward then you are out.
> 
> NOTE: This is not a challenge to anyone on this forum for that is against the rules and not allowed. It is only a statement within a story.
> 
> To answer you question another way: Yes it can be a good thing. As long as you understand that the lack of defeat as a possibility means you are alive to continue on to the next day. Then yes. If not then as stated by you and others, your ego and personality will take a lot of hits. As with my example above, I got through the event with no confrontation and the least amount of loss to myself and others. In an absolute sense it was a loss and not a win. In another sense I am still teaching ( and working as an engineer) and not paying of some law suit.


Rich, I like that you live "the way".  I think that is often spoken about.  Anyway, thank you for putting your mind to this.  I do not know if you mean intentionally this line "_As long as you understand that the lack of defeat as a possibility means you are alive to continue on to the next day_" and but I think that is a wonderful alternative piece of thinking if you did mean that intentionally.  I think to accept defeat as a possibility one must also accept lack of defeat (victory) as possibility.  It is this kind of thing that makes me consider what I had not considered and which is why I am grateful for your input and for that of others.  Thank you my friend.


----------



## jks9199

Zenjael said:


> I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention. What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full. You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over? Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started. It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.
> 
> In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?



mitigating

abject

humility

(I'm getting really tempted to simply insert a link to Montoya's comment to Vessini regarding "inconceivable" in *The Princess Bride*...)

Also... when you over-fill a vessel, most do not empty, they spill over.  The vessel remains full (I suppose, depending on the materials in question, new material may push out the old, rather than simply spill over the top... but the vessel remains full); it doesn't dump itself.  Please don't move onto the story about the professor taking the beaker full of gravel, adding sand, then adding water...

To address the topic at hand... Is humility necessary for the study of the martial arts?  Nope.  Lots of arrogant asshats in the martial arts, even some very skilled folks, especially some of the ones most trumpeting their humility.  But I don't really think that was Jenna's actual question...  There is a point in learning anything where you must have the ability to accept information and input from others.  You also need a certain lack of humility when it comes time to teach and share... You've got to believe that you've got something special, right?  Otherwise, why bother?  It's also easy to mistake questions of face or status for humility or lack thereof...


----------



## elder999

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am 50 years old and I have never been mugged.
> 
> Aside from the usual high school brawls, most of the fighting I've done has been because it was my job in law enforcement to apprehend knuckleheads. And since I haven't been involved in law enforcement since the 90's, I haven't been in a real fight since then either.



I&#8217;m nearly 52, and I&#8217;ve survived three &#8220;attempted muggings,&#8221; all within nearly a year of each other. With the notable exception of the first one-which was more of an attack, and a case of mistaken identity, in Greece-I was at fault; it was a lack of vigilance and situational awareness that led to them taking place, I feel. In Barcelona, I was very much playing the tourist-paying attention to the attractions, instead of my surroundings. In Brooklyn-which would have been a *very *successful mugging, but turned into an attempted murder-I was waay overdressed for a late night IRT subway ride. In all instances*, which took place before I turned 22,* I was a much less imposing looking person as well-in fact, shortly after the last one, in Brooklyn, I had pretty much started look &#8220;bad&#8221; enough that people actually sometimes crossed the street to avoid me-add nearly 25 lbs. of muscle since then, and the fact that I pretty much don&#8217;t go to places where it&#8217;s as likely to happen, and I think I can pretty much count on not getting mugged before I&#8217;m old and decrepit, and look like a pushover.....in the meantime, my bearing, as well as my appearance, is enough to keep most muggers at bay.  In fact, in most encounters I had in my twenties (bouncer, security at parties, riding around with bikers) I just had to give people "the look," and they'd ease off.....still seems to work.:lol:



Jenna said:


> thank you for this entire post. I am particularly interested in this please. In matters of giving free rein to your ego can I ask please is there any method beyond gut feeling in determining who among the experts you should listen to and who you should not listen to?



In some instances, reputation and personal experience. In my current position, I have a colleague who is....well, full of *****, a great deal of the time. The important thing in this instance is determining when he is FOS, and when I need to point it out, rather than just let him get away with it....in fact, I have had a number of colleagues like that, over the years, and several ways of dealing with it. On the other hand, there are those who, again, through their actions and reputations, I tend to trust.

As far as my gut goes, though, in both instances it is much like my appearance to muggers: the &#8220;expert&#8217;s&#8221; bearing often conveys whether they are trustworthy or not, and further observation often bears that out. 



Jenna said:


> I appreciate that is a question that invites a just do whatever reply. I am interested in knowing how you do this in the face of many experts which I think you both are yourself and work alongside and whose screwdrivers you might disarm them of, how do you know which to heed and which to push aside shouting Smithers, unleash my ego! And another point, sorry to ask too many questions, if EVERYONE of those experts is telling you to step down off your ego platform only your ego feels that to do so is detrimental, how to you realise the power in your own conceit to break away and trust yourself? Sorry again and but thank you for taking the time to reply. I am grateful.



When I *know* I&#8217;m right, I&#8217;m *right*. Fortunately, such conflicts rarely take place, but I am pretty convincing when they do. 

I started my career in commercial nuclear power-on more than one occasion, over the course of a decade, I had to physically remove an operator&#8217;s hands from controls because their actions were about to have adverse consequences-this also doesn&#8217;t happen very much, and is part of the job-fortunately enough, it constituted a kind of language among us, and, as operators, we tended to take it fairly seriously when it occurred, as in, _What did I do?_

I wish I could offer some more concrete professional examples, but it&#8217;s going to take a lot of literary judo and evasiveness that I just don&#8217;t think I want to risk right now...I guess I should say that I&#8217;m usually going to trust myself, but it did take a while for me to recognize it-there have been times in the past where I *knew* I was right, but-either because of self-doubt, or &#8220;majority rule,&#8221; had to let things proceed in a way that I knew would prove to be adverse. I simply haven&#8217;t really had the luxury of doing that for some time, except for the smallest things, when I sometimes will, if only for the pleasure of saying, _I told you so..._, or, more often, because it&#8217;s simply not worth it-and it&#8217;s also good training to allow people to &#8220;fail&#8221; where the consequences are minimal.


----------



## jks9199

elder999 said:


> I guess I should say that I&#8217;m usually going to trust myself, but it did take a while for me to recognize it-there have been times in the past where I *knew* I was right, but-either because of self-doubt, or &#8220;majority rule,&#8221; had to let things proceed in a way that I knew would prove to be adverse. I simply haven&#8217;t really had the luxury of doing that for some time, except for the smallest things, when I sometimes will, if only for the pleasure of saying, _I told you so..._, or, more often, because it&#8217;s simply not worth it-and it&#8217;s also good training to allow people to &#8220;fail&#8221; where the consequences are minimal.



This is something I've seen in rookies, especially in those who are also young.  They know what to do, they know what they have to do... but don't trust themselves yet and don't carry that confidence.  They end up waiting, or following a more experienced officer's lead -- even if it's not the right thing or best thing to do.  The only cure I've seen for it is time & reinforcement of their ability to make the right call.


----------



## Jenna

elder999 said:


> In some instances, reputation and personal experience. In my current position, I have a colleague who is....well, full of *****, a great deal of the time. The important thing in this instance is determining when he is FOS, and when I need to point it out, rather than just let him get away with it....in fact, I have had a number of colleagues like that, over the years, and several ways of dealing with it. On the other hand, there are those who, again, through their actions and reputations, I tend to trust.



If I can use your example, I wonder have you ever encountered an instance where the expert you tended to trust was all along FOS?  If an expert has, as you have said, a backing of the community that you and they are part of, and carries a worthiness that requires deference, can they at the same time still be full of ***** TO YOU YOURSELF?  You would be relying upon your own confidence to believe contrary to what is the accepted standard I think.  You have said when you know you are right you are indeed right.  And so have you ever acted contrary to the accepted conventions within your entire community (whether at work or outside)?  Is this action only for the ultimate high-flyers.  Or is it only for those with the ultimate conceit?  I would be interested in your thoughts.  Thank you.


----------



## Cyriacus

Zenjael said:


> I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention. What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full. You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over? Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started. It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.
> 
> In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?



I have a Cup.
It empties when I drink it.
It fills when I refill i... Wait, We're talking Philosophy.

Ones imaginary cup of symbolistic Humility, can be full, overflowing, and frozen solid. It wont affect whether or not Theyre knowledgable or skillful, but it may affect when They can and cannot believe a criticism to Their view to herald any merit.

I know that Chris wouldnt and doesnt pick at things just for the sake of it.
And so far, all Ive seen Him raise are valid points.

Why am I saying all this?
To nullify a bit of tunnel vision, which may lead one to think that Their opponent in a debate is unsupported simply due to a lack of direct participation in the debate by others, in that persons favor.
Thats about all I can say for now, without needing to produce a textual scalpel.


----------



## elder999

Jenna said:


> If I can use your example, I wonder have you ever encountered an instance where the expert you tended to trust was all along FOS? If an expert has, as you have said, a backing of the community that you and they are part of, and carries a worthiness that requires deference, can they at the same time still be full of ***** TO YOU YOURSELF? You would be relying upon your own confidence to believe contrary to what is the accepted standard I think. You have said when you know you are right you are indeed right. And so have you ever acted contrary to the accepted conventions within your entire community (whether at work or outside)?



So, I do have a story I can relate. I probably have several, but this is a good place to start:

In 1997, I was part of the IAEA inspection team that was sent to North Korea. My mission was threefold: observe the encasement of fuel rods, determine if their reactors were suitable for power production (*no*), and collect data for determination of whether they were capable of developing a weapon. The answer to the last question-at least, _my_ answer, was yes, at the time. Now, at the time, I was 6 years from having a doctorate forced on me, and was-in the eyes of Los Alamos Lab and a great deal of the community, "just a well-qualified technician." My opinion didn't matter-the data I collected told the then head of the lab, a truly brilliant man named Sig Hecker, that North Korea couldn't develop a weapon, and he said so, publicly, several times-something like their being decades away. He let the lab in '97, and went on to make several trips to North Korea himself. On one of them, around 2002 or so, they made their slight reveal to Sig, (compared to the big reveal of their centrifuge plant, in 2010) who was shocked to have to change his opinion, especially after getting data from their 2006 and 2009 nuclear tests. 

Sig Hecker's a plutonium metallurgist-a really brilliant, well-measured and thoughtful guy. A much better and more qualified _scientist_ than I am. 

I'm an engineer-a pretty good one, not necessarily brilliant,and a self-admitted knuckle dragger.


I have a scientist's _credentials,_ which I didn't at the time, but I'm really just an engineer, in the end.

I was right, though, and he was wrong, and 10 years later, North Korea proved me right. 

Was Sig FOS? Not really-he based his evaluation on his experience and knowledge. Of course, he got into the work after most of it had been developed by some really brilliant men......and a collection of knuckle draggers like me, and he couldn't see what North Korea had-he only saw what they lacked. Based on what they lacked, he couldn't envision being capable of developing a program himself, and so he determined that North Korea couldn't.

I looked at what they had with a blacksmith's mentality, and said, _Yeah, *I* could do it._ It wouldn't be pretty, and it wouldn't necessarily be done as well as they did back in '45, and the effort would probably kill a few workers, but I could get it done......



Jenna said:


> Is this action only for the ultimate high-flyers. Or is it only for those with the ultimate conceit? I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you.



I'd say that it's for those of us who know that they're right......doom on you if you're wrong, though. :lol:

This puts us pretty far afield from your original question, though......of course, the answer to that is _yes_-in that context , I've never had occasion to say that one of my seniors was FOS....


----------



## Rich Parsons

elder999 said:


> So, I do have a story I can relate. I probably have several, but this is a good place to start:
> 
> In 1997, I was part of the IAEA inspection team that was sent to North Korea. My mission was threefold: observe the encasement of fuel rods, determine if their reactors were suitable for power production (*no*), and collect data for determination of whether they were capable of developing a weapon. The answer to the last question-at least, _my_ answer, was yes, at the time. Now, at the time, I was 6 years from having a doctorate forced on me, and was-in the eyes of Los Alamos Lab and a great deal of the community, "just a well-qualified technician." My opinion didn't matter-the data I collected told the then head of the lab, a truly brilliant man named Sig Hecker, that North Korea couldn't develop a weapon, and he said so, publicly, several times-something like their being decades away. He let the lab in '97, and went on to make several trips to North Korea himself. On one of them, around 2002 or so, they made their slight reveal to Sig, (compared to the big reveal of their centrifuge plant, in 2010) who was shocked to have to change his opinion, especially after getting data from their 2006 and 2009 nuclear tests.
> 
> Sig Hecker's a plutonium metallurgist-a really brilliant, well-measured and thoughtful guy. A much better and more qualified _scientist_ than I am.
> 
> I'm an engineer-a pretty good one, not necessarily brilliant,and a self-admitted knuckle dragger.
> View attachment 16234
> I have a scientist's _credentials,_ which I didn't at the time, but I'm really just an engineer, in the end.
> 
> I was right, though, and he was wrong, and 10 years later, North Korea proved me right.
> 
> Was Sig FOS? Not really-he based his evaluation on his experience and knowledge. Of course, he got into the work after most of it had been developed by some really brilliant men......and a collection of knuckle draggers like me, and he couldn't see what North Korea had-he only saw what they lacked. Based on what they lacked, he couldn't envision being capable of developing a program himself, and so he determined that North Korea couldn't.
> 
> I looked at what they had with a blacksmith's mentality, and said, _Yeah, *I* could do it._ It wouldn't be pretty, and it wouldn't necessarily be done as well as they did back in '45, and the effort would probably kill a few workers, but I could get it done......
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that it's for those of us who know that they're right......doom on you if you're wrong, though. :lol:
> 
> This puts us pretty far afield from your original question, though......of course, the answer to that is _yes_-in that context , I've never had occasion to say that one of my seniors was FOS....



Elder,

A few comments:

1) Where did you get my picture? 
2) I know what you mean about carrying weight as a tech versus engineer versus a doctorate / scientist. Years ago I went to talk to the bright boys running their models to tell them that their latest idea would not work. I asked questions and explained real slow that the model is the model, not the real world. Sometimes over education can lead you down a path of thinking abstractly only.  In the end I asked them some basic questions about RH (Relative Humidity), fluid variation due to age, fill techniques and how having a moving switch that required multiple points of contact barried in transmission fluid was not a good idea, in particular when they could be in and out of the fluid in freezing weather. As the team of doctors left to look at their model and run some more tests a couple of people asked me what my Ph D was in. I smiled and said "Common Sense". I am a System Engineer.  
3) I figured no one could follow you and a North Korea Nuke comment, so I jumped on the granade and went on after you. :lol:


----------



## clfsean

Rich Parsons said:


> 3) I figured no one could follow you and a North Korea Nuke comment, so I jumped on the granade and went on after you. :lol:



Oh... Reallly???

Well, one time in band camp...


----------



## Jenna

elder999 said:


> So, I do have a story I can relate. I probably have several, but this is a good place to start:
> 
> In 1997, I was part of the IAEA inspection team that was sent to North Korea. My mission was threefold: observe the encasement of fuel rods, determine if their reactors were suitable for power production (*no*), and collect data for determination of whether they were capable of developing a weapon. The answer to the last question-at least, _my_ answer, was yes, at the time. Now, at the time, I was 6 years from having a doctorate forced on me, and was-in the eyes of Los Alamos Lab and a great deal of the community, "just a well-qualified technician." My opinion didn't matter-the data I collected told the then head of the lab, a truly brilliant man named Sig Hecker, that North Korea couldn't develop a weapon, and he said so, publicly, several times-something like their being decades away. He let the lab in '97, and went on to make several trips to North Korea himself. On one of them, around 2002 or so, they made their slight reveal to Sig, (compared to the big reveal of their centrifuge plant, in 2010) who was shocked to have to change his opinion, especially after getting data from their 2006 and 2009 nuclear tests.
> 
> Sig Hecker's a plutonium metallurgist-a really brilliant, well-measured and thoughtful guy. A much better and more qualified _scientist_ than I am.
> 
> I'm an engineer-a pretty good one, not necessarily brilliant,and a self-admitted knuckle dragger.
> View attachment 16234
> I have a scientist's _credentials,_ which I didn't at the time, but I'm really just an engineer, in the end.
> 
> I was right, though, and he was wrong, and 10 years later, North Korea proved me right.
> 
> Was Sig FOS? Not really-he based his evaluation on his experience and knowledge. Of course, he got into the work after most of it had been developed by some really brilliant men......and a collection of knuckle draggers like me, and he couldn't see what North Korea had-he only saw what they lacked. Based on what they lacked, he couldn't envision being capable of developing a program himself, and so he determined that North Korea couldn't.
> 
> I looked at what they had with a blacksmith's mentality, and said, _Yeah, *I* could do it._ It wouldn't be pretty, and it wouldn't necessarily be done as well as they did back in '45, and the effort would probably kill a few workers, but I could get it done......
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that it's for those of us who know that they're right......doom on you if you're wrong, though. :lol:
> 
> This puts us pretty far afield from your original question, though......of course, the answer to that is _yes_-in that context , I've never had occasion to say that one of my seniors was FOS....


Thank you for sharing this experience.  I am grateful to learn of how these things work on the ground so to speak.  So in your one hand you have the idea of advising the US and allies that we should be prepared for nuclear-backed aggression from N Korea based on your individual conclusion, and in your other hand you have your trust in Sig who is a highly respected authority and who represents you at a higher level.  That is a lot to carry in your hands I think.  Wow.  And so was it humility that caused you to defer to his experience?  Or something else?  

I guess it is a big risk speaking out even if you know you are right since the possibility exists that what you know about what you know is itself not correct.  Thank you again.  I am grateful to learn these things.  I am looking forward to your memoir when you are released from your official secrets.. do not tell me it would only be a posthumous memoir?  I hope not


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:


> Elder,
> 
> A few comments:
> 
> 1) Where did you get my picture?
> 2) I know what you mean about carrying weight as a tech versus engineer versus a doctorate / scientist. Years ago I went to talk to the bright boys running their models to tell them that their latest idea would not work. I asked questions and explained real slow that the model is the model, not the real world. Sometimes over education can lead you down a path of thinking abstractly only.  In the end I asked them some basic questions about RH (Relative Humidity), fluid variation due to age, fill techniques and how having a moving switch that required multiple points of contact barried in transmission fluid was not a good idea, in particular when they could be in and out of the fluid in freezing weather. As the team of doctors left to look at their model and run some more tests a couple of people asked me what my Ph D was in. I smiled and said "Common Sense". I am a System Engineer.
> 3) I figured no one could follow you and a North Korea Nuke comment, so I jumped on the granade and went on after you. :lol:


Rich, I like your PhD in common sense  And can you tell me why are scientists regarded as being higher on a scale then engineers?  Are the two disciplines not equivalent?  Thank you.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:


> Rich, I like your PhD in common sense  And can you tell me why are scientists regarded as being higher on a scale then engineers?  Are the two disciplines not equivalent?  Thank you.



Many people will look for anything to separate and put one above another. 
Education is used many times this way. 
Grand Masters over Senior Masters over Masters over Senior Instructions over Instructors over Assistant Instructors over students. 

Medical Doctors do it with Doctors of Ostepath. Also with Dentists and Optometrists. 
Within MD's it is done for Cardio etcetera as well as internalist and or other specialists. 
Then there are Nurses and degrees within them as well

In the science fields, if you have a Ph D you can make some money teaching or in research. If you have a BS or MS degreee then the "Scientists" who have Ph D's look down on you. If you cannot get the piece of paper (degree) then your opinion does not count or matter. 

In Engineering Electrical and Mechanical are the main areas. They both will get a master's on Computer Science, but Computer Science is still looked down on as it is not an engineering degree. There is Coputer Engineering but that is more Hardware related and considered a verys specialized version of Electrical Engineering. Yet they both will get the Master's in Comp Sci to have the Master's degree to be above those with just a BS and or compete for promotions with those who have a MS. 

So those with Ph D's in Engineering and or a Science and working in advanced or modeling want to be special or think of themselves as better so they act accordingly. 

I work with some Ph D's and they are very smart. They do their job. They will educate you and share with you. They will listen to your experience and add it to their knowledge and become better. 

And yes this all fits with your discussion in this thread just a different field from Martial Arts.


----------



## elder999

Rich Parsons said:


> In Engineering Electrical and Mechanical are the main areas. They both will get a master's on Computer Science, but Computer Science is still looked down on as it is not an engineering degree. .



And if you're a nuclear engineer, like me, maybe you look down on *all of them*, but maybe without a job.....:lfao:


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:


> Many people will look for anything to separate and put one above another.
> Education is used many times this way.
> Grand Masters over Senior Masters over Masters over Senior Instructions over Instructors over Assistant Instructors over students.
> 
> Medical Doctors do it with Doctors of Ostepath. Also with Dentists and Optometrists.
> Within MD's it is done for Cardio etcetera as well as internalist and or other specialists.
> Then there are Nurses and degrees within them as well
> 
> In the science fields, if you have a Ph D you can make some money teaching or in research. If you have a BS or MS degreee then the "Scientists" who have Ph D's look down on you. If you cannot get the piece of paper (degree) then your opinion does not count or matter.
> 
> In Engineering Electrical and Mechanical are the main areas. They both will get a master's on Computer Science, but Computer Science is still looked down on as it is not an engineering degree. There is Coputer Engineering but that is more Hardware related and considered a verys specialized version of Electrical Engineering. Yet they both will get the Master's in Comp Sci to have the Master's degree to be above those with just a BS and or compete for promotions with those who have a MS.
> 
> So those with Ph D's in Engineering and or a Science and working in advanced or modeling want to be special or think of themselves as better so they act accordingly.
> 
> I work with some Ph D's and they are very smart. They do their job. They will educate you and share with you. They will listen to your experience and add it to their knowledge and become better.
> 
> And yes this all fits with your discussion in this thread just a different field from Martial Arts.


Thank you for explaining this Rich.  Have you experienced this personally?  I mean how do you know if one person is as you say not regarded as having an equal place?  Is this made apparent at meetings?  Do people voice this kind of snobbery out loud?  It sounds like a fraught environment if there are these tensions pervading your work???  Thank you again.


----------



## elder999

Jenna said:


> Thank you for sharing this experience. I am grateful to learn of how these things work on the ground so to speak. So in your one hand you have the idea of advising the US and allies that we should be prepared for nuclear-backed aggression from N Korea based on your individual conclusion, and in your other hand you have your trust in Sig who is a highly respected authority and who represents you at a higher level. That is a lot to carry in your hands I think. Wow. And so was it humility that caused you to defer to his experience? Or something else?



No deference at all, really. I-along with a few other people-collected some data, and others above our paygrade evaluated that data and made conclusions. Beyond the collection of the data, my job at the time was done. Of course, I couldn't help but make my own evaluation of my own observations, but no one was *ever* interested in what I had to say.


----------



## Jenna

elder999 said:


> No deference at all, really. I-along with a few other people-collected some data, and others above our paygrade evaluated that data and made conclusions. Beyond the collection of the data, my job at the time was done. Of course, I couldn't help but make my own evaluation of my own observations, but no one was ever interested in what I had to say.


That is unfortunate, and I would guess potentially dangerous!  I suppose at that level there can be no decision by committee though?  Do you feel differently now about their decision than to how you did at the time?  Thank you.


----------



## Rich Parsons

elder999 said:


> And if you're a nuclear engineer, like me, maybe you look down on *all of them*, but maybe without a job.....:lfao:



I was a Chem E major for three years. I left because of the Cancer rates working with oil products. It is safer to work with radioactive material or it was from the data in the late 80's. 

And yes, some will always look down on others with or without a job.  :hmm:

I am glad you have one though.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:


> Thank you for explaining this Rich.  Have you experienced this personally?  I mean how do you know if one person is as you say not regarded as having an equal place?  Is this made apparent at meetings?  Do people voice this kind of snobbery out loud?  It sounds like a fraught environment if there are these tensions pervading your work???  Thank you again.




Yes. Sometimes based upon level or title at level where I have worked as well as with education. Some PhD's will not be obvious about it, but they will say things occasionally about their schooling or just continue to yell like you do not know what you are talking about, which makes most people stop and think maybe there is something I do not know and need to check. So your silence becomes an acceptance to their comments. 

Over time some are ignored or moved out of implementation and into real advanced stuff so they can go play in a sand box and let others produce a producet to sell to customers so the company can make some money and pay their salary. 

And those who are this way and are right a lot usually get promoted and are out of your way to get the job done. 

Now that being said, the numbers are few.  Most people right now are just happy to have a job and able to work.


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:


> Yes. Sometimes based upon level or title at level where I have worked as well as with education. Some PhD's will not be obvious about it, but they will say things occasionally about their schooling or just continue to yell like you do not know what you are talking about, which makes most people stop and think maybe there is something I do not know and need to check. So your silence becomes an acceptance to their comments.
> 
> Over time some are ignored or moved out of implementation and into real advanced stuff so they can go play in a sand box and let others produce a producet to sell to customers so the company can make some money and pay their salary.
> 
> And those who are this way and are right a lot usually get promoted and are out of your way to get the job done.
> 
> Now that being said, the numbers are few.  Most people right now are just happy to have a job and able to work.


I understand, thank you for elaborating on this Rich.  I think ultimately you are correct though that snobbery seems a little misguided and childish when job security is at risk.  I hope you do not let this interfere with your own image of yourself.  If someone is derogatory about you I think it is seldom an objective appraisal of you and but more of a glaring reflection of some not great stuff that is going down in their heads.  I hope you are well.


----------



## elder999

Rich Parsons said:


> I was a Chem E major for three years. I left because of the Cancer rates working with oil products. It is safer to work with radioactive material or it was from the data in the late 80's.
> 
> And yes, some will always look down on others with or without a job. :hmm:
> 
> I am glad you have one though.



And, to be fair, I worked with a lot of PhD.s at the lab, and most of them were pretty much okay. I did get forced to get a PhD. myself, because people with doctorates don't really care to be "working for" someone who doesn't have one, but it's been my observation that most people who actually have a reason to feel "superior" to someone rarely act that way....I certainly don't ever actually have a reason to feel superior to anyone...


----------



## Carol

I worked at a company 10 years ago that was easily one-third PhDs.  We made speech recognition software for commercial telecom applications, so a big chunk of our employees were speech scientists.  One thing I was told at my interview was that no one uses the title of "doctor" in the company.  The employee manual stated that educational titles such as Ph.D. could be used at the employee's discretion.

At one point in a meeting, a newer employee spoke out against the policy.  "I don't see why I can't call myself 'Doctor' when I am here.  I worked very hard for my doctorate."

One of our VPs in the meeting stood up and stared at the guy.  "Big deal.  I've got three of 'em.  I worked very hard for all of mine.  What should I have people call me?  Doctor-doctor-doctor?"

Funny....the subject never came up again....  :lol2:


----------



## Instructor

Carol said:


> I worked at a company 10 years ago that was easily one-third PhDs. We made speech recognition software for commercial telecom applications, so a big chunk of our employees were speech scientists. One thing I was told at my interview was that no one uses the title of "doctor" in the company. The employee manual stated that educational titles such as Ph.D. could be used at the employee's discretion.
> 
> At one point in a meeting, a newer employee spoke out against the policy. "I don't see why I can't call myself 'Doctor' when I am here. I worked very hard for my doctorate."
> 
> One of our VPs in the meeting stood up and stared at the guy. "Big deal. I've got three of 'em. I worked very hard for all of mine. What should I have people call me? Doctor-doctor-doctor?"
> 
> Funny....the subject never came up again.... :lol2:



Totally reminds me of the movie Spies Like US.


----------



## Carol

Instructor said:


> Totally reminds me of the movie Spies Like US.



I haven't seen it.  Worth watching?


----------



## Instructor

Carol said:


> I haven't seen it. Worth watching?



I think its funny.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:


> I understand, thank you for elaborating on this Rich.  I think ultimately you are correct though that snobbery seems a little misguided and childish when job security is at risk.  I hope you do not let this interfere with your own image of yourself.  If someone is derogatory about you I think it is seldom an objective appraisal of you and but more of a glaring reflection of some not great stuff that is going down in their heads.  I hope you are well.



Actually this is not an issue for me. Meaning I feel bad when a jerk acts like a jerk. 

Yet, I do feel bad when managers tell me that people are afraid of me. They do not like that I look people inn the eyes. I say hi to people as I walk down the hallway. 
All is as well as it can be for me with all that is going on. ;~)


----------



## Zenjael

Chris, when you can speak to me with the same level of humility you do your classmate, or your instructor, I will be happy to continue any conversation we have. Until then, I hope you enjoy the forums. I do doubt your insight- not in technique, but in value of character within martial arts, as a generality. Take it as you will- I am but one opine out of the millions which exist in the world concerning martial arts. I understand I have rubbed you wrong, but understand that to me, you have gone far beyond anything I have done... and honestly, I find it hard to respect an individual who is responding as you have. I wish you well, and continuance in your art... but confrontation only leads to self-doubt, and frankly, the advice you offer is tempered by self-defiance against me. Excuse me for ignoring your input with that in mind.

I am sorry Bill you had that experience. I wonder if perhaps a friend could be made from what happened, but then again, when I look at those like that, I do not see their aggression only, but the hurt which drives it. 

I hope if this ever happens to me, I'll be able to have him sit, and at least enjoy tea with me. You did good, I am sorry he did not take the opportunity to enrich his own life with the point of view you have to offer. 

As a joke, I once tried to pay for a meal at mcdonalds with a sapphire gem. It wasn't worth more than maybe 75$, but I'd have still given it over if the clerk accepted. You cannot make others see the good in you, of what you offer, when they have made up their minds already, with certitude.

As to Jenna, I wish you the greatest safety. Having been a fellow victim, know that your well-being will be in my thoughts next time I meditate.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Zenjael said:


> Chris, when you can speak to me with the same level of humility you do your classmate, or your instructor, I will be happy to continue any conversation we have. Until then, I hope you enjoy the forums. I do doubt your insight- not in technique, but in value of character within martial arts, as a generality. Take it as you will- I am but one opine out of the millions which exist in the world concerning martial arts. I understand I have rubbed you wrong, but understand that to me, you have gone far beyond anything I have done... and honestly, I find it hard to respect an individual who is responding as you have. I wish you well, and continuance in your art... but confrontation only leads to self-doubt, and frankly, the advice you offer is tempered by self-defiance against me. Excuse me for ignoring your input with that in mind.
> 
> I am sorry Bill you had that experience. I wonder if perhaps a friend could be made from what happened, but then again, when I look at those like that, I do not see their aggression only, but the hurt which drives it.
> 
> I hope if this ever happens to me, I'll be able to have him sit, and at least enjoy tea with me. You did good, I am sorry he did not take the opportunity to enrich his own life with the point of view you have to offer.
> 
> As a joke, I once tried to pay for a meal at mcdonalds with a sapphire gem. It wasn't worth more than maybe 75$, but I'd have still given it over if the clerk accepted. You cannot make others see the good in you, of what you offer, when they have made up their minds already, with certitude.
> 
> As to Jenna, I wish you the greatest safety. Having been a fellow victim, know that your well-being will be in my thoughts next time I meditate.



Do you have the slightest understanding of how much damage you're doing to the good reputation of GMU with your continued butchery of the English language? Just one example. You continue to use opine as a noun when it is, as has been pointed out several times, a verb.  And what sort of twisted "logic" leads one to write "the advice you offer is tempered by self-defiance against me" and delude themselves into thinking it makes any sense whatsoever? 

You are right about one thing though...arrogance and a belief in ones infallibility, even when faced with piles of contrary evidence, does tend to rub people the wrong way.

If you'd like Chris to treat you with as much respect as a student, you would probably be well advised to be as receptive as his students.


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## elder999

Zenjael said:
			
		

> Chris, when you can speak to me with the same level of humility you do your classmate, or your instructor, I will be happy to continue any conversation we have. Until then, I hope you enjoy the forums. I do doubt your insight- not in technique, but in value of character within martial arts, as a generality.



It's my opine that you should go try a class at the GMU kyokushin karate club.Make sure to  tell them that you're 3rd dan. Come relate the experience to us, as you would a classmate, or instructor, and share your insights. That might, at the very least, change a few _opines_.

After al_l, steel is only tempered by the hottest of flames.
_:lol:


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## Josh Oakley

Zenjael said:


> Chris, when you can speak to me with the same level of humility you do your classmate, or your instructor, I will be happy to continue any conversation we have. Until then, I hope you enjoy the forums. I do doubt your insight- not in technique, but in value of character within martial arts, as a generality. Take it as you will- I am but one opine out of the millions which exist in the world concerning martial arts. I understand I have rubbed you wrong, but understand that to me, you have gone far beyond anything I have done... and honestly, I find it hard to respect an individual who is responding as you have. I wish you well, and continuance in your art... but confrontation only leads to self-doubt, and frankly, the advice you offer is tempered by self-defiance against me. Excuse me for ignoring your input with that in mind.
> 
> I am sorry Bill you had that experience. I wonder if perhaps a friend could be made from what happened, but then again, when I look at those like that, I do not see their aggression only, but the hurt which drives it.
> 
> I hope if this ever happens to me, I'll be able to have him sit, and at least enjoy tea with me. You did good, I am sorry he did not take the opportunity to enrich his own life with the point of view you have to offer.
> 
> As a joke, I once tried to pay for a meal at mcdonalds with a sapphire gem. It wasn't worth more than maybe 75$, but I'd have still given it over if the clerk accepted. You cannot make others see the good in you, of what you offer, when they have made up their minds already, with certitude.
> 
> As to Jenna, I wish you the greatest safety. Having been a fellow victim, know that your well-being will be in my thoughts next time I meditate.



Frankly, you could do with a lot more humility yourself.

And as far as respect.. that's not a given. It is earned. And Chris is your senior, both in martial arts ability and in age. You want respect? Quit talking down to your seniors. Quit acting like you automatically deserve an equal footing. 

This really has nothing to do with how you think you are acting. Kid, you have been putting yourself on a pedestal by your words. That doesn't really fly here... Or anywhere. 

If you want an example outside of your experience, go to the Kenpo forums and read through the sword and hammer thread. Ras (atacxgym) was acting the way you have been since you got here, and he was shot down more vehemently than you.

He thought more highly of himself than was warranted, liked to use long, verbose responses, and wasn't really good at listening to reason. And don't get me wrong, I actually like Ras, but I eventually couldn't side with him either.

And frankly, he has a lot more skill in the martial arts than you do. Read through those posts. Really read through them. Look at how he was received. That is you in the future. Ask yourself if that is really what you want. If that is REALLY how you want to be viewed. 

Some of us here are still pulling for you. You have potential. But to be blunt, you are going to have to pull your head out of your fifth point of contact before you'll be able to act on that potential.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## Josh Oakley

elder999 said:


> It's my opine that you should go try a class at the GMU kyokushin karate club.Make sure to  tell them that you're 3rd dan. Come relate the experience to us, as you would a classmate, or instructor, and share your insights. That might, at the very least, change a few _opines_.
> 
> After al_l, steel is only tempered by the hottest of flames.
> _:lol:



Opine. You bastard

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## elder999

Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> Opine. You bastard
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk



Just havin' a little fun. Pretty sure the kid's ignoring me, anyway.......:lfao:


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## jks9199

Zenjael said:


> Chris, when you can speak to me with the same level of humility you do your classmate, or your instructor, I will be happy to continue any conversation we have. Until then, I hope you enjoy the forums. I do doubt your insight- not in technique, but in value of character within martial arts, as a generality. Take it as you will- I am but one opine out of the millions which exist in the world concerning martial arts. I understand I have rubbed you wrong, but understand that to me, you have gone far beyond anything I have done... and honestly, I find it hard to respect an individual who is responding as you have. I wish you well, and continuance in your art... but confrontation only leads to self-doubt, and frankly, the advice you offer is tempered by self-defiance against me. Excuse me for ignoring your input with that in mind.
> 
> I am sorry Bill you had that experience. I wonder if perhaps a friend could be made from what happened, but then again, when I look at those like that, I do not see their aggression only, but the hurt which drives it.
> 
> I hope if this ever happens to me, I'll be able to have him sit, and at least enjoy tea with me. You did good, I am sorry he did not take the opportunity to enrich his own life with the point of view you have to offer.
> 
> As a joke, I once tried to pay for a meal at mcdonalds with a sapphire gem. It wasn't worth more than maybe 75$, but I'd have still given it over if the clerk accepted. You cannot make others see the good in you, of what you offer, when they have made up their minds already, with certitude.
> 
> As to Jenna, I wish you the greatest safety. Having been a fellow victim, know that your well-being will be in my thoughts next time I meditate.



opine

self-defiance (what word do you really mean?  Self-defiance isn't even a word; the best I can say it would mean is something like challenging yourself, or opposing yourself.)

Really... Please, buy yourself a copy of Strunk & White.  Or any other style guide.  You are making yourself look uneducated and unprepared by misusing words.  And what does your comment about the sapphire gem have to do with anything?  Of course the clerk at Mcdonalds wouldn't likely accept it; gems aren't generally considered legal tender in the US.


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## wingchun100

Humility is necessary for a couple reasons. I am reminded to be humble every time I go to class because, since the times I can go are so few and far between, I quickly realize that I am NOT the best at wing chun (especially chi sao) in that school. As far as humility outside of class, that is necessary too because you'd look really foolish if you were boasting before you got into a fight about how you were going to completely wreck the other person...and then THEY wreck YOU.


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## Instructor

My Grandad had a saying.  You can be humble or get humbled, it all works out in the end.


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## drop bear

Humble I like. But I tend to use their term professional.


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## Chris Parker

Genuine question here: Do you truly equate the terms "humble" and "professional"? I'm not really seeing much of a connection there.


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## Transk53

Chris Parker said:


> Genuine question here: Do you truly equate the terms "humble" and "professional"? I'm not really seeing much of a connection there.



Strictly speaking I would think you are right, but personally that fits with my profession. I have to be humble and professional. IE, a upset person that may confront me at work, I have to use both these.


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