# Latest TOW, Intellctual Departure



## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2004)

Hello all,
Please check out http//www.ltatum.com/tipoftheweek.html#25. 
I was wondering what anybody thought about it. I'll start off by pointing out that great big "and" in the quick demonstration of Delayed Sword, that is... why do a hammering block whan your hands are at your sides? Any thoughts?
Sean


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## kenpo12 (Feb 25, 2004)

You hammer because it's against a grab.


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## howardr (Feb 25, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> Please check out http//www.ltatum.com/tipoftheweek.html#25.
> I was wondering what anybody thought about it. I'll start off by pointing out that great big "and" in the quick demonstration of Delayed Sword, that is... why do a hammering block whan your hands are at your sides? Any thoughts?
> Sean



Why do a hammering strike in Delayed Sword? I'd say for alignment and power. This sort of attack seems more of an intimidation (after all, the guy just didn't punch you, he put his hands on you, and isn't that likely to be afraid of you), and if that's what the sort of situation you're confronted with, you have a little time. Therefore, a hammering strike is feasible. (Obviously, if there are indications that he's going to immediately strike then you should act accordingly.) Also, I think a hammering strike, properly done, can be extremely fast (even if not quite as fast as a non-hammering) plus it is far more structurally sound and significantly more powerful. Finally, if another strike is on the way, the hammering strike may sweep across and catch it.

I thought it was interesting that the attack seemed more like a stiff arm grab rather than a bent arm grab.

Howard


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## kenpo12 (Feb 25, 2004)

TOD,

   What is the first block used in Short form 1?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> You hammer because it's against a grab.


Kenpo12,
Reguardless of the attack, if your hands are at your sides you should thrust it right off the hip. As for your second question, that would depend on wheather or not you brought your hands to your hips off the meditation or went right from the meditation. I'll assume you do it from the meditation. so its a bad hammer unless you bring it to the starting point of reference for a hammer(back to the same shoulder). I say bad hammer because your going to graft a thrust from the meditating horse. I hope that helps.
Sean


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## psi_radar (Feb 25, 2004)

If you don't want to do the "Hey, I don't want any trouble" hands-up maneuver to get in position for the hammer, you can always use the left side of Lone Kimono. The hammer in Delayed Sword is necessary to cancel the height, width and depth zones. If you have someone really hammer on your radial like that you'll not only let go, you'll spin down, away, and out. 

Good tip, interesting.


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## kenpo12 (Feb 25, 2004)

"Reguardless of the attack, if your hands are at your sides you should thrust it right off the hip. "

I dissagree, I do believe there are situations where the above statement holds true but not everytime.  Additionally, by elongating the circle, as with the hammer block, you may also be able to catch the nose or jaw.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> "Reguardless of the attack, if your hands are at your sides you should thrust it right off the hip. "
> 
> I dissagree, I do believe there are situations where the above statement holds true but no everytime.  Additionally, be elongating the circle, as with the hammer block, you may also be able to catch the nose or jaw.


However your just assuming your opponent will let you take the time to get in a hammering position from an hands down position (perhaps while he lights a cigarette with the other hand.[ha ha] Just kidding) You are under attack. In all seriousness, what are your priorities, defending yourself or doing delayed sword? Big circles big trouble.
Sean


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## kenpo12 (Feb 25, 2004)

I understand about the priorities but I really don't see why you wouldn't have time to hammer the block if you are checking the grabbing hand while stepping back.  The the step back with the pin on the grabbing hand will cancel your opponents width giving you the time needed.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 25, 2004)

> TOD
> Regardless of the attack, if your hands are at your sides you should thrust it right off the hip.



Interesting observation.  I completely agree.



> TOD
> However you're just assuming your opponent will let you take the time to get in a hammering position from a hands down position (perhaps while he lights a cigarette with the other hand.[ha ha] Just kidding) You are under attack. In all seriousness, what are your priorities, defending yourself or doing delayed sword? Big circles big trouble.





> Kenpo12
> I understand about the priorities but I really don't see why you wouldn't have time to hammer the block if you are checking the grabbing hand while stepping back. The the step back with the pin on the grabbing hand will cancel your opponents width giving you the time needed.



Umm  who's to say that the grab isn't a punch to the head (you know.... slightly above your lapel)?  How do you know whether the forward movement of your opponents arm towards your lapel is a grab or a punch?  Do you just wait to see?  Even if you miss the initial signs and do get grabbed why not strike in a direct path from point of origin (assuming hands are by your side) instead of making a big circular path eating up precious time.   



> This sort of attack seems more of an intimidation (after all, the guy just didn't punch you, he put his hands on you, and isn't that likely to be afraid of you), and if that's what the sort of situation you're confronted with, you have a little time.



I agree that it is a method of intimidation but it is also a means for your attacker to test both his and your resolve.  The second he has his hands on you the test is over and he has his answer.  Do you wait to see what it was?  Hell NO!!! At this point you have missed all the warning signs, but this should be a HUGE one...... STRIKE NOW.  If your hands are up do Delayed sword, but if they aren't do Raking mace which is essentially delayed sword preceeded by a punch to the abdomen.  You could also do the first palm heel strike from Triggered Salute depending on whether you were pulled in or not. By using the palm heel stike, you could also create a wedge against an incoming right punch by dominating the centerline.  However, I would argue that at time you are way behind the curve and have ZERO time to move or think.  At this point make it fast, make it hurt, and start looking for his buddies don't become a victim of target fixation.  People tend to be more bold when they have several friends around.

just my thoughts.


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## kenpo12 (Feb 25, 2004)

Whatever, I'm done debating, I know it works and that's all I care about.  You can nitpick all day and what if'ing it to death.  Delayed Sword in it's "ideal phase" is for a grab, plain and simple.  If you learned it differently I'm sorry but there is a reason it's for a grab and there is a reason to do the hammer block.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> Whatever, I'm done debating, I know it works and that's all I care about.  You can nitpick all day and what if'ing it to death.  Delayed Sword in it's "ideal phase" is for a grab, plain and simple.  If you learned it differently I'm sorry but there is a reason it's for a grab and there is a reason to do the hammer block.


That reason being?


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## TheEdge883 (Feb 25, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> Whatever, I'm done debating, I know it works and that's all I care about.  You can nitpick all day and what if'ing it to death.  Delayed Sword in it's "ideal phase" is for a grab, plain and simple.  If you learned it differently I'm sorry but there is a reason it's for a grab and there is a reason to do the hammer block.



Depending on your school. Delayed Sword was first taught to me as a step through straight punch.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 25, 2004)

TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> Depending on your school. Delayed Sword was first taught to me as a step through straight punch.


NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor.    This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with.     Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!

Dark Lord


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 25, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> That reason being?


The nature of the attack and relative position in the Universal Pattern is relegated to the level at which you learn material, on the 24 tech curriculum.    There are reasons Mr. Parker put the material where he did, and then outlined that curriculum to print in Infinite Insights many years later, contrary to what many people believe.    If someone thinks they're creative or innovative by deleting, altering, and formulating new techniques, they've never engrained the system to begin with.    If it ain't broke, don't F with it, but you can still tinker and play within the boundaries of the material for a lifetime.    



Dark Lord


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## TheEdge883 (Feb 25, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor.    This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with.     Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!
> 
> Dark Lord



So the kenpo I learn is bastardized because I learned the defense against a punch and not a grab? Wasn't it originally taught as a punch?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 25, 2004)

TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> So the kenpo I learn is bastardized because I learned the defense against a punch and not a grab? Wasn't it originally taught as a punch?


 
Main Entry: *bas·tard·ize*


Pronunciation: 'bas-t&r-"dIz
Function: _transitive verb_
Inflected Form(s): *-ized*; *-iz·ing*
*1* *:* to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition *: [size=-1]DEBASE[/size]*
*2* *:* to declare or prove to be a bastard
*3* *:* to modify especially by introducing discordant or disparate elements
- *bas·tard·i·za·tion*


 /"bas-t&r-d&-'zA-sh&n/ _noun_ 

In a word, I'd say YES.   And you probably learned alot of other techniques differently as well.




Dark Lord


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor.    This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with.     Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!
> 
> Dark Lord


Great, let's talk about the nature of the attack. The purpose of a grab is to lead you into an unfavorable position. This means the punch with the other hand is comming. Choosing to violate point of origin by swinging your arm behind you to a hammering position, sounds more like a moment late and a block short to me. If the ideal is going to get you killed, its time to re-evaluate the ideal.
Sean


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 25, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Great, let's talk about the nature of the attack. The purpose of a grab is to lead you into an unfavorable position. This means the punch with the other hand is comming. Choosing to violate point of origin by swinging your arm behind you to a hammering position, sounds more like a moment late and a block short to me. If the ideal is going to get you killed, its time to re-evaluate the ideal.
> Sean


NO, only your ideal, it works for everybody else the way Matt 12 explained it, besides the fact the cocking could just as easily turn into an outward block or strike. Makes you go hmm doesn't it?

Dark Lord


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2004)

TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> So the kenpo I learn is bastardized because I learned the defense against a punch and not a grab? Wasn't it originally taught as a punch?


Your instructor is doing just fine. Don't let this guy get to you.
Sean


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## TheEdge883 (Feb 25, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Main Entry: *bas·tard·ize*
> 
> 
> Pronunciation: 'bas-t&r-"dIz
> ...



Now i'm not saying I learned from Ed Parker, but wouldn't you be saying something to the effect that Mr. Parker taught a bastardized version of his own system? Or did he teach everyone to bastardize his system. 

I guess I don't understand.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 25, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> NO, only your ideal, it works for everybody else the way Matt 12 explained it, besides the fact the cocking could just as easily turn into an outward block or strike. Makes you go hmm doesn't it?
> 
> Dark Lord


No, your better off doing the outward extended off the hip, you won't be able to make an outward extended work until you have fully anchord your elbow. In short you got tagged. Wasted inches wasted time.
Sean


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 25, 2004)

> NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor. This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with. Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!



You know, I learned it as a grab and later as a punch and I gotta say that if the attacker moves with any sort of intent, it can become hard to distinguish between a grab and a punch REAL FAST.  Same with triggered Salute.  You are essentially deflecting a moving object towards your body in hope of pinning it.  Well is it a punch or a push?  I tell you one thing, I sure would hate to be in a twist stance and find out that the push was really a punch, a punch that I helped guide to my face by doing the inward parrying motion.  

If striking from point of origin and/or striking pre-emptively is a bastardization than Mr. Parker must have been the biggest bastard of us all.  Don't you think there is a reason these other techniques exist.  Also at what point do your techniques and movements quite working you and you start working the techniques?  Movements and techniques are Ideas, not the Gospel.  Targets are plentiful if you know what you're looking for.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 25, 2004)

> Now i'm not saying I learned from Ed Parker, but wouldn't you be saying something to the effect that Mr. Parker taught a bastardized version of his own system? Or did he teach everyone to bastardize his system.


No, it was Bill Gates who sold us the crack that addicted us to the internet that turned us all into bastards.



> If striking from point of origin and/or striking pre-emptively is a bastardization than Mr. Parker must have been the biggest bastard of us all.


Whoa!  I don't even think Will Tracy have ever said anything like that!  Hey, maybe I should change my login name to Old Fat Bastard?


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## TheEdge883 (Feb 26, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Whoa!  I don't even think Will Tracy have ever said anything like that!  Hey, maybe I should change my login name to Old Fat Bastard?



It does have a cool Austin Powersish ring to it


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> You hammer because it's against a grab.


Guys,
Just for the record I'm not suggesting the ideal of Delayed Sword should be done off the hip, I'm suggesting the ideal is to start with your right hand up, and of course hammering down on the arm.
Sean


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## kenpo3631 (Feb 26, 2004)

Kenpo 12,
I agree with you on you methodolgy for why you do the inward block the way that you do it. However, KenpoYahoo & TOD bring up a very valid point. Economy of Motion is an intregal part of the Ed Parker System of Kenpo. Point of Origin should help you determine what type of inward block (thrusting or hammering) you'll use. Following that principle (Point of Origin), it would only be logical to thrust if your hands are at your side. But again, the Art is tailored to the individual, and if you feel more comfortable with a hammering block as you method of execution from the hands down position then by all means go for it. Just make sure that you explain to your students why you're doing it like that so the understand the difference between the thrusting inward & hammering inward blocks.

TOD,
You response to Kenpo 12's Short Form 1 question sparked my interest. Do you do the first block of Short 1 as a thrust? If so why? It is my understanding that the Forms are to teach us principles and rules of motion and that every move has an opposite and a reverse. Do you teach your students at the white belt level to thrust both inward blocks?


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## jeffkyle (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> I understand about the priorities but I really don't see why you wouldn't have time to hammer the block if you are checking the grabbing hand while stepping back.  The the step back with the pin on the grabbing hand will cancel your opponents width giving you the time needed.



Excellent Point!!!!


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## jeffkyle (Feb 26, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> No, your better off doing the outward extended off the hip, you won't be able to make an outward extended work until you have fully anchord your elbow. In short you got tagged. Wasted inches wasted time.
> Sean



When I **** my hand up to do a hammering inward my elbow IS anchored, and it looks alot like an extended outward block to me.   :shrug:


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## jeffkyle (Feb 26, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Guys,
> Just for the record I'm not suggesting the ideal of Delayed Sword should be done off the hip, I'm suggesting the ideal is to start with your right hand up, and of course hammering down on the arm.
> Sean



Thanks for the clarification, I for one thought you meant it the other way.
But it was said before, what if you had your hands up when you were grabbed or punched?  We don't ALWAYS walk around with our hands down or in our pockets.  Several of us use our hands while we are talking for expression.  I know when a situation is tense like that for me, my hands are a little higher than usual.


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## kenpo3631 (Feb 26, 2004)

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> Excellent Point!!!!



Yes that is a very good point, if you want to do the technique that way.

The problem I have with that is this:

If you pin the opponents hand to your chest, you must have your hand come from the outside in (left to right). This will put your hand on the outside of you opponents. That can pose a problem when you deliver the strike to the opponents arm, especially if you hit the bend in the elbow instead of the forearm.  If you lose the trap OR if your strike is faster than you pinning hand is moving, you can end up with your opponent's hand in your face.

Don't say it can't happen. I've seen it with white belt students more than  a dozen times. 

Just food for thought. :asian:


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## jeffkyle (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Yes that is a very good point, if you want to do the technique that way.
> 
> The problem I have with that is this:
> 
> ...



I see your point.  But it you DO acutally Pin first (i understand how beginners DO get ahead of themselves however) and you step back you will elongate your opponents arm, taking away his depth and width, allowing you to attack as you see fit.  Either hammer the bicep OR even possibly the forearm, if you strike hard enough it shouldn't matter where as long as you inflict the pain.  
I would have to say that training the student to know what needs to come first is where the problems can incur as you have stated.


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## psi_radar (Feb 26, 2004)

Guys, use the techniques situationally. That's the intention behind learning 154 techniques--you've got one for just about every likely scenario, and they can be adjusted easily. If someone grabs you with the right, and the left's coming in, just adjust to Triggered Salute--it'll stop the left for sure. If they've past the point of grabbing and now are pulling you into the punch, it makes more sense to step forward and push their jaw off than step back and go for the arm. 
 Or come in from the outside, with the left side of Lone Kimono, as I've already stated. 
If you've got time and you've already got your hands up "hey man, I don't want any trouble" Delayed Sword works well, and it's an excellent strike teaching tool. *Hammer* *Thrust* *Whip*


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## MisterMike (Feb 26, 2004)

Wouldn't one way to tell if it is a grab or a punch coming in is to look at whether their incoming hand is open or closed?

Granted, open or not, it is still a straight line coming in at you so it can be handled as a punch if you get to it in time.

Also, I think more right hands coming in are going to be punches since there aren't as many left handers out there.

Just my 3 pennies..


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> When I **** my hand up to do a hammering inward my elbow IS anchored, and it looks alot like an extended outward block to me.   :shrug:


 If you will notice, when getting to the starting point of reference for a hammer, you are sort of swinging your arm behind you to do so. Besides a possible hammer fist the the groin of the person behind you the move is worthless until the starting point of refernce for a hammer is acheived; however, a simple thrust off the hip is the begining of your thrusting inward block or an outward extended.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Wouldn't one way to tell if it is a grab or a punch coming in is to look at whether their incoming hand is open or closed?
> 
> Granted, open or not, it is still a straight line coming in at you so it can be handled as a punch if you get to it in time.
> 
> ...


One out of every nine people.
Sean :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> TOD,
> Your response to Kenpo 12's Short Form 1 question sparked my interest. Do you do the first block of Short 1 as a thrust? If so why? It is my understanding that the Forms are to teach us principles and rules of motion and that every move has an opposite and a reverse. Do you teach your students at the white belt level to thrust both inward blocks?


K3631,
Maybe I wasn't clear. If you do that first hammering block out of a meditating horse, the hammer part of the block is not there to do. Hammering blocks start with the fist at the same shoulder, if your already half way there (meditating horse), then you just graft a thrust the rest of the way to the target. So, my point is that "EVERYBODY" thrusts that first inward block, including you.
Sean


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## kenpo3631 (Feb 26, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> K3631,
> Maybe I wasn't clear. If you do that first hammering block out of a meditating horse, the hammer part of the block is not there to do. Hammering blocks start with the fist at the same shoulder, if your already half way there (meditating horse), then you just graft a thrust the rest of the way to the target. So, my point is that "EVERYBODY" thrusts that first inward block, including you.
> Sean



Interesting...I have heard Skip Hancock explain that stuff and I don't really subscribe to it. I admire him for his insight and thought process, I just don't subscribe to that line of thinking.

Personally there are more methods of execution than just hammer, whip and thrust, but that is besides the point. I also understand that you can alter anything to fit your style of Kenpo, (remember from the System we derive our _style_ or way of doing it). However the forms created by Mr. Parker were designed to teach certain things. By altering the methods of execution wouldn't change the teachings of the form?

The point is that a hammering blow _generally_ comes from HIGH to LOW and thrust _generally_ goes from LOW to HIGH. With that as a guide how can the first block in Short Form 1 be taught as anything but a hammering inward?


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## kenpo12 (Feb 26, 2004)

"Maybe I wasn't clear. If you do that first hammering block out of a meditating horse, the hammer part of the block is not there to do. Hammering blocks start with the fist at the same shoulder, if your already half way there (meditating horse), then you just graft a thrust the rest of the way to the target. So, my point is that "EVERYBODY" thrusts that first inward block, including you."


No, you don't thrust the first block and that's exactly why I asked.  If you're doing short 1 wrong you will probably do alot of the yellow/orange technique's wrong.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Interesting...I have heard Skip Hancock explain that stuff and I don't really subscribe to it. I admire him for his insight and thought process, I just don't subscribe to that line of thinking.
> 
> Personally there are more methods of execution than just hammer, whip and thrust, but that is besides the point. I also understand that you can alter anything to fit your style of Kenpo, (remember from the System we derive our _style_ or way of doing it). However the forms created by Mr. Parker were designed to teach certain things. By altering the methods of execution wouldn't change the teachings of the form?
> 
> The point is that a hammering blow _generally_ comes from HIGH to LOW and thrust _generally_ goes from LOW to HIGH. With that as a guide how can the first block in Short Form 1 be taught as anything but a hammering inward?


You have totaly misunderstood the concept of hammer, thrust, and whip. They do not refer to the direction from which you come, they refer to the muscle groups you use. Hammer is a very specific downward motion you do in your shoulder; so, if that downward motion has already happened (vis the meditating horse) you are grafting a thrust. Justs for ****s and grins I was hoping you could list some of these "other" methods of execution for me to chew on. :asian: 
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> No, you don't thrust the first block and that's exactly why I asked.  If you're doing short 1 wrong you will probably do alot of the yellow/orange technique's wrong.


Yeah right.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> So, my point is that "EVERYBODY" thrusts that first inward block, including you."
> 
> 
> No, you don't thrust the first block and that's exactly why I asked.  If you're doing short 1 wrong you will probably do alot of the yellow/orange technique's wrong.


K12,
I have to ask. Do you start all your techs from a meditating horse or did you just make that statement because you thought it made you sound smart?
Sean


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## Kenpomachine (Feb 26, 2004)

Can we agree on a definition of thrust and hammer so everybody are in the same page? I think there's a misunderstanding of the meaning of these terms, or at least, you don't apply the same meaning to them.

By the way NOT everybody begins short 1 in a meditating horse


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## kenpo12 (Feb 26, 2004)

"K12,
I have to ask. Do you start all your techs from a meditating horse or did you just make that statement because you thought it made you sound smart?
Sean"

   Thought it made me sound smart but you saw right though it.  Darn!


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

Kenpomachine said:
			
		

> Can we agree on a definition of thrust and hammer so everybody are in the same page? I think there's a misunderstanding of the meaning of these terms, or at least, you don't apply the same meaning to them.
> 
> By the way NOT everybody begins short 1 in a meditating horse


This is true. We start from the med horse, some bring there hand back "and" block, in which case it would be a true hammering block; however, there is that "and" again.
Sean


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 26, 2004)

Darn, me post got lost.

A few things.

First off, you could argue that Short 1 begins in an attention stance, as you start the salutation. But if you leave off the salutation, Short 1 starts in a meditating horse stance. Period. Unless, of course, Mr. Parker got in wrong in some way I am unaware of?

Similarly, the first block in Short 1 is a hammering block in which the righthand actually cocks back, or chambers if you prefer. That's the way the form is. Sorry, but to teach it otherwise is to teach it wrong. (Developing something else is another question.)

Next, for beginners, Delayed Sword is taught against a grab FIRST and foremost. (You may indeed add a push or punch attack--later.) 

Why? a) Because of the Web of Knowledge; b) to take advantage of the fairly-natural tendency for the hands to move left as left foot steps back; c) to establish a relation to subsequent techniques--take a look at the variants of that initial right block in Alternating Maces, Sword of destruction, Deflecting Hammer, Mace of Aggresion, for example.

Sorry, but the techniques--and the forms--are the ways that they are for some very sound reasons. One can go on about "evolution," vs. "being traditional," forever--but the damn things are the ways they are for reasons. 

I'd also be interested to see what folks thought about the Tip...


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Darn, me post got lost.
> 
> A few things.
> 
> ...


well obviously its one of those catagory completion techs. For just a moment you not only turn your back to your opponent, but in this case you bring your feet toguether. The danger of performing the tech aside, I have no complaints. getting back to what you said about doing short form one wrong, If eliminating and and wasted motion from your art is wrong then God bless "wrong". My point being the performance of your art should match your principles and rhetoric. Why teach point of origin and then violate it right out of the gate?
Sean


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 26, 2004)

Uh...it's not wasted motion, for all sorts of reasons. Please check "Infinite Insights," in which Mr. Parker chambers the right hand before blocking.

Second, Delayed Sword doesn't complete a category. It starts one, which is why it's best probably to teach a fairly-rigid version of the technique first.

Third...does a reverse bow really mean turning one's back in the usual sense?

Incidentally, "Intellctual," ain't spelled like that, O God of String Titles.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Uh...it's not wasted motion, for all sorts of reasons. Please check "Infinite Insights," in which Mr. Parker chambers the right hand before blocking.
> 
> Second, Delayed Sword doesn't complete a category. It starts one, which is why it's best probably to teach a fairly-rigid version of the technique first.
> 
> ...


I thought we weren't correcting spelling erros there professor. I know I mispelled it from viewing it last night. By catagory completion, I was refering to ID.
Sean


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## kenpo12 (Feb 26, 2004)

QUOTE] have no complaints. getting back to what you said about doing short form one wrong, If eliminating and and wasted motion from your art is wrong then God bless "wrong".[/QUOTE] 

It's not wasting motion, there are a miriad of reasons for chambering the block, several of which Robert already described above.  I'm not saying you can't practice the technique with a punch instead of the grab and use a thrusting block.  But the ideal technique is the ideal technique and if you change it you're doing something different.


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## dcence (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> "Maybe I wasn't clear. If you do that first hammering block out of a meditating horse, the hammer part of the block is not there to do. Hammering blocks start with the fist at the same shoulder, if your already half way there (meditating horse), then you just graft a thrust the rest of the way to the target. So, my point is that "EVERYBODY" thrusts that first inward block, including you."
> 
> 
> No, you don't thrust the first block and that's exactly why I asked.  If you're doing short 1 wrong you will probably do alot of the yellow/orange technique's wrong.




Ah, -- you neither thrust or hammer.  Your hand is already out there.  All you do is step back and rotate your body, maybe rotate the arm a little.  The first inward block in Short or Long 1 is a positional block.

Just wanted to make sure we had three entirely different opinions out there.

Derek


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 26, 2004)

Mr. Ence:

Sorry, no. Again, please look at "Infinite Insights," where the form is demonstrated. Then too, a bunch of us got--let's just say fully informed--last night. By the same guy who did the Tip.

I'd also argue that the question of hammering/thrusting is different from the issue of positional, riding, etc. checks. Hammering/thrusting has to do with method; positional, riding, etc. have to do with effects. Similarly, blocks and checks are different, though blocks should (as you noted) have a checking effect.

Thanks for the point,
Robert


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

dcence said:
			
		

> Ah, -- you neither thrust or hammer.  Your hand is already out there.  All you do is step back and rotate your body, maybe rotate the arm a little.  The first inward block in Short or Long 1 is a positional block.
> 
> Just wanted to make sure we had three entirely different opinions out there.
> 
> Derek


Yes and no. Your muscles thrust on that positional block.
Sean


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2004)

TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> Depending on your school. Delayed Sword was first taught to me as a step through straight punch.



Thats right.  I learned it both ways.  You should be able to take parts from any tech. and blend them, regardless of what the attack is.

Mike


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor.    This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with.     Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!
> 
> Dark Lord



Dude, do you honestly think that EVERY Kenpo Inst. teaches EVERY tech the same way?? Come on man.  I spent 2 hrs. talking to Clyde and I was totally amazed as to the differences that we both have.  Same art, different thoughts.  Didnt Parker himself make changes??  Of course he did.  You can have Tatum, Mills, Chapel, Palanzo, and Palanas all do the same tech, and I'd be very surprised if there were no differences.  Come on!!

Mike


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## kenpo12 (Feb 26, 2004)

> You should be able to take parts from any tech. and blend them, regardless of what the attack is.



But not with the ideal stage.


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## dcence (Feb 26, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Mr. Ence:
> 
> Sorry, no. Again, please look at "Infinite Insights," where the form is demonstrated. Then too, a bunch of us got--let's just say fully informed--last night. By the same guy who did the Tip.
> 
> ...



Robert, Robert, Robert...

My point is that there are many ways to do the same thing.  I know what's in the infinite insights, you don't have to quote chapter and verse.  Do you sign as pictured in the Infinite Insights (right-left)?  Some say it is wrong, some say it is right.  What say you?

Derek


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## dcence (Feb 26, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Yes and no. Your muscles thrust on that positional block.
> Sean



Especially if you look at the right hand moving from attention to meditating to step back/block.  I don't bring the hand back either.  To have the hand out, then bring it back to the hip, only to return it to that position is excessive.  But if someone wants to bring it to the hip and block out again, I am not going to worry about it either.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 26, 2004)

Derek, Derek, Derek.

Nobody said anything about chambering at the hip. 

And no, I don't think they all teach the same material. That's half our damn problem.

More to the point, we aren't talking about some advanced brown knife technique here; we aren't talking about some extension; we aren't talking about interpretations of moves in Long 6. And we aren't talking, at the moment, about advanced students.

We're discussing Short 1 and Delayed Sword, fer crissake. Basic and fundamental material.

I see that AGAIN, everything gets distorted into platitudes about grafting or about differences, and claims that this is all a matter of traditional stuck-in-the-mudism vs. evolutionary adventure. Nope, not at all.

One sign of the problem: can anybody who argues for teaching DS against a straight right punch right at the outset, to a beginner, clearly explain:

a) their reasons for violating the whole idea of the Web of Knowledge;
b) their reasons for omitting the clear and simple, immediate lesson in checking that the defense against a grab provides;
c) their reasons for making it harder for a beginner to understand a kenpo fundamental--drop in your stance;
d) their reasons for changing a sequence of learning attacks with this tech that would more-naturally go from grab to push to punch;
e) their reasons for changing a clear, plain opportunity to show a tyro that the grabbing hand is not the real threat;
f) their reasons for omitting a bit of the foundation on which the concept of mirroring is to be built;
g) their reason for creating a duplication of attacks, since Sword of Destruction and Attacking Mace both go against punches;
h) their reasons for disconnecting Short 1 from this technique.

Don't tell me I'm a traditionalist. Avoid rattling on about differences. Just explain your reasons for the changes, in real detail, without cliches. 

Looking forward to it.


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## dcence (Feb 26, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Derek, Derek, Derek.
> 
> Nobody said anything about chambering at the hip.
> 
> ...



First, there is nothing wrong teaching it and doing it by the book.

However, I do not first teach Delayed Sword against a grab for two reasons, which I believe have more merit than your list:

(1)  You cannot distinguish a grab from a strike until contact, at which point it is too late to decide, especially if the grab turns out to be a strike.  A push, palm heel and a grab all look the same as they come at you.  I believe it is important for beginners to learn first, solutions that work for all three problems, then teach them variations that are more situationally specific.  Teach general rule, then variations and exceptions relating to specifics.

(2)  It is more important to learn to first deal with an attacker as he enters your within contact range, than after he has made contact.  This is the priority when actually defending yourself.  I do believe it is important to train for a grab that has been applied, but not first, because it establishes the mind-set in order of reversed priorities.

But I learned "old school" and I think (or at least hope) I turned out alright.

Good discussion (too bad it is totally off the original subject).

Derek


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> But not with the ideal stage.


Mr. Parker had an habbit of changing the ideal from decade to decade. Why is your particular ideal superior to another's. Why do you think the way I block on the first move of short form one has anything to do with the way I perform yellow and orange techs. If you put your hands up to protect your self, and you understand the ideal to always start with your hands at your sides aren't you in a bit of a jam?
Sean


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## kenpoangel (Feb 26, 2004)

<<Good discussion (too bad it is totally off the original subject).>>

A Kenpo Forum discussion went off the original subject?  

Naaaaahhhhhh,

artyon: 

Angela


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpoangel said:
			
		

> <<Good discussion (too bad it is totally off the original subject).>>
> 
> A Kenpo Forum discussion went off the original subject?
> 
> ...


Its actualy related to the clip in a relative way, so to speak.
Sean :uhyeah:


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## kenpoangel (Feb 26, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Its actualy related to the clip in a relative way, so to speak.
> Sean :uhyeah:




Hey now,

That wasn't directed at you...that was more of a comment to Derek bringing that up at the end of his last post.

I'm outta here,

 :iws:


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpoangel said:
			
		

> Hey now,
> 
> That wasn't directed at you...that was more of a comment to Derek bringing that up at the end of his last post.
> 
> ...


Sorry, your quote was not blue and I missed the post before yours. :asian:
Sean


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## dcence (Feb 26, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Uh...it's not wasted motion, for all sorts of reasons. Please check "Infinite Insights," in which Mr. Parker chambers the right hand before blocking.


Robert,
I am not sure we are on the same page here. To quote chapter and verse, Infinite Insights V, p. 16-17 show no such chambering for Short 1 (or Long 1). If you are referring to another portion, please direct us to it.
Thanks
Derek


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## dcence (Feb 26, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Mr. Ence:
> 
> Sorry, no. Again, please look at "Infinite Insights," where the form is demonstrated. Then too, a bunch of us got--let's just say fully informed--last night. By the same guy who did the Tip.
> 
> ...




Ah, sorry. No, again.  There are positional blocks, as opposed to positional checks.  See Infinite Insights, III, pp. 7, 46-49, to quote chapter and verse.

Checks prevent a strike (preventative), blocks deflect a strike (remedial).  Positional is method, not result.


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## ArnoldLee (Feb 26, 2004)

I wonder if much of the confusion comes from looking at the action of the arm, shoulder etc. in the same way as in the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

A hammering inward block usually starts at the point of reference for hammering with the shoulder laterally rotated and then hammers inward to a medial position.

In Short 1 the motion of the body as you launch back to a right neutral "peels" away the arm and so what LOOKs like a hammering inward block can as Sean stated, use a pure thrusting action in the shoulder muscles.  Can be very confusing.  
*The point of reference looks like you should hammer.
*The motion looks like a hammer.
*It seems to end in the same position as if you had hammered.

What makes it even worse is that if you concentrate on the proximal muscle motion you CAN hammer and very effectively at that if you freeze the shoulder and move the body around the joint so that that the shoulder achieves that lateral rotation.

That being said in light of the original clip, IF I had the time I would get my hands up into the point of reference for hammer (hands up, don't want no trouble pose), better margin for error, stronger muscle action, etc, etc.
But darn... if someone is in Contact stage to me, moving with a purpose and has caught me with my arms down, no way in heck I'm gonna orbit that arm up, I'd "shoot from the hip" and thrust.  I firmly believe that it is a very valuable skill to be able to do Delayed Sword with a thrusting motion for the first move...might save my life someday.


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## kenpo12 (Feb 26, 2004)

dcence said:
			
		

> Ah, sorry. No, again.  There are positional blocks, as opposed to positional checks.  See Infinite Insights, III, pp. 7, 46-49, to quote chapter and verse.
> 
> Checks prevent a strike (preventative), blocks deflect a strike (remedial).  Positional is method, not result.




I don't think Robert ever said there weren't positional blocks.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 26, 2004)

Derek, I'll recheck. For once, I didn't have the book in front of me--and it's possible I distorted a little because I got slightly chewed about this just last night.

On other matters, I thought your points were good, if you don't mind my saying so, especially the one about the difficulty of distinguishing a grab from a push.

Thanks.


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> But not with the ideal stage.



True, but how can you be sure that every stage is gonna be ideal??  Sure, during training, the techs. should be done w/o any changes, but under the stress of not knowing whats coming at you...well, thats the time to use whats gonna work!

Mike


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## kenpo12 (Feb 27, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> True, but how can you be sure that every stage is gonna be ideal??  Sure, during training, the techs. should be done w/o any changes, but under the stress of not knowing whats coming at you...well, thats the time to use whats gonna work!
> 
> Mike



I completely agree.  I have no problems with variations when the poo hits the fan.  I'm speaking strictly when you are working the ideal stage or teaching the technique.


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> I completely agree.  I have no problems with variations when the poo hits the fan.  I'm speaking strictly when you are working the ideal stage or teaching the technique.



Gottcha!!  Yes, I agree with you on that also.  Its hard enough for a beginner to learn the tech in its original form, nevermind trying to throw the 'what ifs' at them!

Mike


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 27, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Gottcha!! Yes, I agree with you on that also. Its hard enough for a beginner to learn the tech in its original form, nevermind trying to throw the 'what ifs' at them!
> 
> Mike


The force is becoming strong with this one OB won.

Dark Lord


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> The force is becoming strong with this one OB won.
> 
> Dark Lord



The Jedi Master must be having a positive effect on the young one. :asian: 

Mike


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## kenpo3631 (Feb 29, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> You have totaly misunderstood the concept of hammer, thrust, and whip. They do not refer to the direction from which you come, they refer to the muscle groups you use. Hammer is a very specific downward motion you do in your shoulder; so, if that downward motion has already happened (vis the meditating horse) you are grafting a thrust. Justs for ****s and grins I was hoping you could list some of these "other" methods of execution for me to chew on. :asian:
> Sean



This is YOUR view and the views of Skip. There is nothing wrong for beliveing in what you believe in. However if you thrust then you are changing the basic premise of what is being taught, which is the method of HAMMERING & THRUSTING. Each are distinct and are done so to illustrate each method to the begginer. 
Besides if you are retreating, settling your base as you hit the neutral bow, and your hammer is effective then why would you have to thrust?


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## kenpo3631 (Feb 29, 2004)

dcence said:
			
		

> First, there is nothing wrong teaching it and doing it by the book.
> 
> However, I do not first teach Delayed Sword against a grab for two reasons, which I believe have more merit than your list:
> 
> ...



Mr. Ence,
So do you believe that a student cannot predict what type of strike is to be thrown by an assailant through the reading of body language? Can you not differentiate the intent of a punch from that of a push or grab on most occassions? There are many books about this subject as well as related classes.  I do feel however that experience is the best tool when choosing a method to dealing with human conflict. 

I do agree that teaching the general rule should be emphasized. It should also be taught correctly, with the emphasis on the underlying principle.

_It is more important to learn to first deal with an attacker as he enters your within contact range, than after he has made contact_

This is true. Doesn't this apply to any defense to a physical confrontation though? What says you can't instill this in your student as you teach them the "ideal phase" of the technique?


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## dcence (Mar 1, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Mr. Ence,
> So do you believe that a student cannot predict what type of strike is to be thrown by an assailant through the reading of body language? Can you not differentiate the intent of a punch from that of a push or grab on most occassions? There are many books about this subject as well as related classes.  I do feel however that experience is the best tool when choosing a method to dealing with human conflict.
> 
> I do agree that teaching the general rule should be emphasized. It should also be taught correctly, with the emphasis on the underlying principle.
> ...




Some are more adept at reading body language than others, and this skill increases with training.  But the beginner learning Delayed Sword will have a very difficult time.  Maybe do an experiment and let an attacker come at you with a grab, push to your chest,  a right palm heel, or even a punch, all with the right hand and with the same body movement.  Try to guess.  Maybe you can.  Most can't, especially a beginner.   When you parry a punch or palm heel into yourself thinking you were pinning a grab, the results will be pretty clear. 

So what do we teach a new student with Delayed Sword against a grab -- we are teaching the student to stand there, allow the attacker into the danger zone, yet stand with your feet together, until they have a good hold on you.  Logically, it doesn't make sense.

Certainly, someone can grab you when your head is turned, or you aren't paying attention for one reason or another, and so it is important to learn to extricate yourself from a manipulation, but that is a more specific level of training to me, than attempting to intercept an inbound limb regardless of what they intend to do with the hand that is on the end.

Just a different approach of thought.
Derek


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## rmcrobertson (Mar 1, 2004)

I agree, I think--and, it seems to me, that if you teach the grab first, you're a) including the other strikes, since to grab somebody has to reach pretty far in there; b) teaching some important things about checks, about stepping back, etc.; c) leaving the other posssibilities alone.


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## kenpo3631 (Mar 1, 2004)

dcence said:
			
		

> Some are more adept at reading body language than others, and this skill increases with training.  But the beginner learning Delayed Sword will have a very difficult time.  Maybe do an experiment and let an attacker come at you with a grab, push to your chest,  a right palm heel, or even a punch, all with the right hand and with the same body movement.  Try to guess.  Maybe you can.  Most can't, especially a beginner.   When you parry a punch or palm heel into yourself thinking you were pinning a grab, the results will be pretty clear.
> 
> So what do we teach a new student with Delayed Sword against a grab -- we are teaching the student to stand there, allow the attacker into the danger zone, yet stand with your feet together, until they have a good hold on you.  Logically, it doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...



Sir,
I teach it against an opponent grabbing you with his right (to hold you in place :erg: ) and punching with the left. It gets the point home that the student must step back to cancel out the back up weapon.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 1, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Sir,
> I teach it against an opponent grabbing you with his right (to hold you in place :erg: ) and punching with the left. It gets the point home that the student must step back to cancel out the back up weapon.


We teach against an attempted grab. No reason to stick your head in the lions mouth(ha ha). Although this has been dealt with in other postings. Even though you are in the hammering position (comming from above),and if you start out of a meditating horse, your muscle grouping will act like a thrust. Keep rotating your wrist past the block point and it will look and feel like an uppercut.
Sean


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 2, 2004)

dcence said:
			
		

> Some are more adept at reading body language than others, and this skill increases (or should) with training.  But the beginner learning the basics needs to focus on the embryonics.
> Derek



Agreed, Intellectual Departure is an awesome technique for freestyle... against a roundhouse or hook kick.... it not only teaches you to "read" your opponent but also to explore different angles of attack.  Most beginners will fumble with this and will  usually get killed, now the more advanced will be able to add this to their arsenal and be able to strike from "down undea".

:asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Mar 2, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> We teach against an attempted grab. No reason to stick your head in the lions mouth(ha ha). Although this has been dealt with in other postings. Even though you are in the hammering position (comming from above),and if you start out of a meditating horse, your muscle grouping will act like a thrust. Keep rotating your wrist past the block point and it will look and feel like an uppercut.
> Sean



Well if your hands are down, hanging naturally, then yes  a THRUSTING inward would be warranted ~ that is if you follow the Economy of Motion principle.


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## kenpo3631 (Mar 2, 2004)

The first time I saw it in sparring was watching Mr. Trejo....AWESOME!


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## kenpo3631 (Mar 2, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Agreed, Intellectual Departure is an awesome technique for freestyle... against a roundhouse or hook kick.... it not only teaches you to "read" your opponent but also to explore different angles of attack.  Most beginners will fumble with this and will  usually get killed, now the more advanced will be able to add this to their arsenal and be able to strike from "down undea".
> 
> :asian:


 oops forgot to quote ya! How's sunny Arizona been?


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 2, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> oops forgot to quote ya! How's sunny Arizona been?



LOL, no prob... I knew what you were referring to.  

Sunny AZ well its been rainy


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