# Tai Chi Self Defence



## Hopkins0603

Is thinking of taking up Tai Chi with a view to learning it as a martial art and dumb and wasted idea?


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## jks9199

Not if you find the right instructor.  Just be warned -- there's a lot of barely adequate, meditation/dance/new age tai chi out there where the martial applications have been lost.


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## seasoned

It depends on what you are looking for. It could take years before you discover Self Defense value in Tai Chi. Just a suggestion, but I would start a good punch, kick, and block art that has kata and kata drills as a base. Take a little time to check out a few dojo's along with credentials. Once you have a base set, I feel that Tai Chi would be a great supplment to your training and you will have a much better understanding of it's worth.


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## clfsean

Hopkins0603 said:


> Is thinking of taking up Tai Chi with a view to learning it as a martial art and dumb and wasted idea?



No. It's really not. Taiji was used to protect the Chen Family & their village for generations. 

However finding a teacher that's qualified to teach in it such a manner competently & realistically is a different story.


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## mograph

The others are quite right -- finding a good teacher could be difficult.
The odds would improve if you were to search for "taijiquan", "applications", "push hands" and styles such as Wu or Sun, or especially Chen. You could find teachers of Yang style with a martial focus, but they would be more difficult to find, since most teachers who claim to teach Yang style don't teach applications ... in my experience. In other words, so few people teach Chen/Wu/Sun for health alone that the odds are good that if you found such a teacher, he/she would teach martial applications. But of course, if you found a Yang style teacher who taught martial applications, you should check out the class.

But it's an interesting question. I like seasoned's suggestion, but I might supplement it by suggesting that if you can't find a good taijiquan instructor that teaches applications, that you find one who teaches the fundamentals of relaxation in the application of force in general -- being loose yet connected, using whole-body strength. That would be a skill that could be applied to your kick/block/kata art.

By the way, if you were to check out a kick/block/kata art, I'd hope you found a teacher who did not advocate being hard and tight.


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## stickarts

I agree with the responses regarding finding the right teacher. I have worked with teachers that have focused  on the health aspects, and the i have also worked with teachers that focused on the martial applications as well. I particularly enjoyed the push hands.


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## Xue Sheng

I&#8217;m a Yang style guy that trained some Chen that really would rather be doing Xingyiquan so take this for what it is worth

For the most part I agree with everything that has been said, I do have one minor issue which I will get into in a bit but right now I am going to add my opinion to the mix and in the process reiterate what has already been said.

Is/was Taijiquan a marital art? Yes

However finding a sifu, in any style, that knows the actual real live Taijiquan martial arts side of it is rare and finding a sifu that knows the real live actual Taijiquan martial arts side of it and is willing to teach it to you is even rarer. The reason I am adding &#8220;real live Taijiquan martial arts side&#8221; is because there are many out there that tell you they are teaching Taijiquan as a martial art but they really aren&#8217;t. They are teaching Taijiquan forms with Sports Sanda (Which is where I fear the 20th generation Chen family is heading) or they have taken another martial art and have combined with Taijiquan and are again teaching forms with applications from another style which in applications ore most certainly not Taijiquan.

Now let&#8217;s say you actually find a real live Taijiquan sifu and he is willing to train you. It is not a quick process, it takes a lot of patients and many years to get there and you have to have the view that your sifu knows better than you do as to what you are ready to learn. 

As to styles that are more likely to still teach real live Taijiquan with the martial arts intact, and for the record I am only going to talk about the main 5 with one addition that claims to be one of the main 6 and what you find in the USA, there are others styles and other countries have all of these styles but I know little about them

- Yang style does still have martial arts but finding someone that actually knows it is very rare but IMO if you are going to find a sifu that knows the martial arts side of it you need to look for students of Fu Zhongwen or Tung Ying Chieh. Or look for students of Tung Ying Chieh&#8217;s oldest son Tung Hu Ling or Fu Zhongwen&#8217;s son Fu Shengyuan. Or students of Tung Hu Ling&#8217;s oldest son Tung Kai Ying. But I should also add that Vincent Chu is also teaching the martial arts of it and he is a student of his father Gin Soon Chu who was as student of Yang Shouzhong. Vincent was in Boston the last I knew.

- Chen style is more likely to have martial arts taught but even there I am starting to see taiji for health taking over. Even Chen Xiaowang has said that he feels Taijiquan as a martial art is dead because there are so many out there doing taiji that know absolutely nothing about the martial arts since of it and so few that do. But IMO if you want real Taijiquan martial arts you need to get close to students of or train with Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei. I am also told that Chen Xiaoxing and Chen Yu are good as well. As to the 20th generation, my thoughts on them are still out. They know the forms and they know how to fight it is just at this point what they are doing looks more like Sports Sanshou than Taijiquan

- Zhaobao Style (the 6th or first if you ask a Zhaobao guy) If you find a school in the USA that teaches Zhaobao style, not just a Zhaobao form, it is likely you will get into fighting but at the moment I only know of one real live Zhaobao sifu in the USA and he is somewhere in California. That does not mean there are not others; it just means I do not know about them if they are here

- Wu/Hao style. I have been told that Wu/Hao is still into martial arts but I have my suspicions is leading Chen down that path to the Taijiquan dance

- Sun style, not sure what to tell you here. To find a real live Sun person is difficult. I know of one that use to be in Boston and I have been told there is one in California, again there may be more but I don&#8217;t know who they are.

- Wu style. There is a Southern and Northern version of this and if I were looking for Southern WU I would look to people trained by the Wu family - International Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan Federation

As to the Northern version I would look to those that were trained by the guy who is currently the head of Northern Wu style in Beijing (sorry his name escapes me at the moment) or to the head himself. If that is what you are interested in contact David Dolbear in Syracuse NY.

Now the bit I am not in 100% agreement with and I should probably say nothing but I sometimes do not knwo when to shutup. First I have great respect for seasoned and I do not wish to offend him but I do not completely agree with this 



seasoned said:


> It depends on what you are looking for. It could take years before you discover Self Defense value in Tai Chi. Just a suggestion, but I would start a good punch, kick, and block art that has kata and kata drills as a base. Take a little time to check out a few dojo's along with credentials. Once you have a base set, I feel that Tai Chi would be a great supplment to your training and you will have a much better understanding of it's worth.



I do agree that is depends on what you are looking for and I do agree that it could take years to discover the self defense value of Taijiquan. I will add it could take years even if you find a sifu that knows it and is willing to train it to you. And I also agree that you need to take time to find a school be that Taijiquan or something else. The part I do not agree with completely is this



> Take a little time to check out a few dojo's along with credentials. Once you have a base set, I feel that Tai Chi would be a great supplment to your training and you will have a much better understanding of it's worth.



Now if you are looking simply for self defense then I actually 100% agree with seasoned but if your goal is the martial side to Taijiquan that is where I have a problem.

I have spent many hours working with people from Karate, Taekwondo and other martial styles, I am working with one now actually, that I know are good martial artists but due to their previous training they are way to square way to rigid and way too inflexible and they have to unlearn much of what they have learned just to get the forms right and when it comes to applications they are using way too much power and remaining way to rigid and they have to learn how to relax in form and application.

If in fact you are looking for the martial side of Taijiquan I but want to start somewhere else I highly recommend you look to a Chinese Martial Art that would be considered a long fist style. The reason for this is, and as much as many taiji people do not want to admit this) Taiji is basically a long fist style. Its approach to confrontation and training is a bit different but in the static form is they are rather similar. I have also had a few Aikido people do rather well at Taijiquan as well.

But with all that said I will add that I once trained Taijiquan with a Uechi Ryu who although he had a problem with his kicks as they are done in Taijiquan, he got the rest down fairly well fairly fast. And for the record, I really did not want to get kicked by him even though it was still Uechi Ryu because that guy could kick damn hard.


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## Kaveth

Just throwing in my two cents here. I have been practicing Taijiquan Yang Style for about a month now, my sifu has been teaching some relatively basic martial applications. While I can't say she is by any means an expert in the martial side of things, while doing the form, if you recognize a move as a block, a strike, or otherwise, it can help you to visualize scenarios that the form can be used. This has been said many times on this forum, but learning Taijiquan as a martial art will take time. I have been told that I should complete the entire long form before I start to even attempt push hands and other martial applications due to the requirement of needing to know where your hands and feet belong. 

My final opinion is this, if you are not in a rush to get into a fight, Taijiquan will suit you well.


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## Diesel_tke

You would be much better off starting with kickboxing and then learning tai chi after a year or so.  I've been doing Chen pan ling tai chi for a few years.  It works well in combat, but it takes a lot longer to learn than kickboxing.  I was sparring with kickboxing within the first month!


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## blindsage

Xue Sheng said:


> I know of one that use to be in Boston and I have been told there is one in California, again there may be more but I dont know who they are.


Tim Cartmell's background is Sun style, but I believe he only teaches it directly in private lessons these days.


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## Bob Klein

My teacher is William C. C. Chen and he is specifically devoted to the fighting aspect of Tai-chi-Chuan, as is his students. His students have opened up Tai-chi schools around the world and he travels around doing workshops in those schools. 

In my school I insist on the students doing at least three years of forms, chi-gung and push hands to gain some basic skills before beginning fighting training.  But you can go to a fighting as exercise class at the beginning in which you get used to the techniques.


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## Josh Oakley

Mine was Ron Jorgensen, another student of William Chen, and I would second that at least from my experience, his students are focused on the fighting aspect.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## GaryR

Hopkins0603 said:


> Is thinking of taking up Tai Chi with a view to learning it as a martial art and dumb and wasted idea?



Not if you have the right teacher, and / or ability to make it work/blend it with something else. 

IF your doing Tai Chi Chuan correctly you should only need it alone --(with the pseudo exception of groundfighting IMO).  

Didn't see a location..but If your ever in LA, I'd be happy to show you, first rounds on you. 

Best

G


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## Makalakumu

My teacher in tai chi was Allen Schwerdt, his teacher was Stewart Olson, and his teacher was the famous T.T. Liang. This is as close as I've come to finding Tai Chi as an actual martial art. It's not what most people think. The best combative exercises was the two person danced. Drilled over and over with the fundamentals and gradually sped up, the dance teaches the reflexive motions for self defense.


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## mograph

Makalakumu said:


> The best combative exercises was the two person dance.


Is the progression (essentially) made from drilled dance to improvised dance to sparring?


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## Makalakumu

Eventually.  The dance gets faster and faster until you can pick up just about any improvised move.  I'm not sure if turns into actual sparring in the way its done in most MA studios.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Is the progression (essentially) made from drilled dance to improvised dance to sparring?



Not in my experience in Traditional Yang Taijiquan

You can drill the applications but the use of them is based more on feel and the opponent force.

The dance(which I am assuming is Tuishou or push hands) in Yang Taiji and as far as I can tell in Chen, is more for learning to feel where the opponents force is going

Traditional Yang Taiji, more than Chen and more than jsut about any other MA requires a lot of patience and relaxation in both learning and application


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## blindsage

Xue Sheng said:


> The dance(which I am assuming is Tuishou or push hands) in Yang Taiji and as far as I can tell in Chen, is more for learning to feel where the opponents force is going



I actually think he's refering to the Yang Sanshou, 2 person form. Here's an old video of my teacher's teacher, Master Tchoung Ta Tchen (in the black coat) doing it:




You speed it up over time and eventually start improvising. Although, I would never call it a 'dance'.


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## Xue Sheng

My Yang sifu is not big on the two person form, there is a two person form from Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh > my sifu too

He feels it is good to learn but he does not feel it is good to train it much since it depends less on feel and more on automatic response to an expected attack that may not be coming in the same sequence (or with the same power) as the two person form trains and it alomost always leads to the use of too much power and/or dependence on external. Basically he feels it is best to simply forget it and spend more learning how the forms work, understanding the 13 posstures. qinna and push hands.

I kind of like it myself but I do understand what he is talking about and why it may not be a good idea to place to much importance on it.


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## blindsage

My sifu teaches it periodically (I'm learning now). He says that it is basically part of the progression to be able to use Taiji well: long form-> push hands-> da lu-> sanshou. But yes, if you don't understand how to do the moves using the proper principles it will fall apart, and if you only focus on the specific moves then, yes, it will be limited. My sifu teaches it to eventually improvise, but also, he seems to have an infinite number of variations on how to do any specific moves within the sanshou, especially when use different energies, qinna, sweeps, and throws. But just like anything else it's one training method, i.e. push hands is a great training method, but if it's all you do, especially fixed step, then you've missed the point.


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## Xue Sheng

My sifu tends towards various types of push hands
Fixed 1 hand
Fixed 2 hand
Fixed with application (closer or free style)
3 Step
4 Corner
1 step (this is app after app after app and the app depends on where the force is going) 
Moving fixed pattern
Moving Free style

and there are various other moving training methodes that have more ot do with stick and follow that anything else

But sadly no one wants to do most of these and they tend to stop at 2 hand fix step and ocassionally do 3 step and 4 corner but people these days simply do not want the apps or martisl aspect of it. Heck, the last time he taught the 2 person set he never finished because the majority were complaining it made their legs hurt.


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## Makalakumu

blindsage said:


> I actually think he's refering to the Yang Sanshou, 2 person form. Here's an old video of my teacher's teacher, Master Tchoung Ta Tchen (in the black coat) doing it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You speed it up over time and eventually start improvising. Although, I would never call it a 'dance'.



That is pretty much what it looked like.  I'm sure TT Liang added in some different moves.  Anyway, we actually did it to music and used the beats to control our speed.  Master Liang was famous making it a dance.


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## Xue Sheng

Makalakumu said:


> we actually* did it to music *and used the beats to control our speed.  Master Liang was famous making it a dance.



Please excuse this but this is just adding to my frustration of the state of Taijiquan today so......

:hb:


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## mograph

Don't get him started!


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## oaktree

Xue Sheng said:


> Please excuse this but this is just adding to my frustration of the state of Taijiquan today so......
> 
> :hb:


What if it was like this type of music?


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## rickster

Hopkins0603 said:


> Is thinking of taking up Tai Chi with a view to learning it as a martial art and dumb and wasted idea?



Perhaps it would be a good idea to post something about a teacher near you.

That way people here can help you determine if it will suit yor needs


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## Xue Sheng

oaktree said:


> What if it was like this type of music?



Nope, not even that or this






 for taiji..... music, any music is, IMO, going a long way towards ruining Taijiquan

My Xingyiquan sifu, who also does the William CC Chen version of Taijiquan, said much the same about music as he did breathing, Breathing he said if he sees you are exhaling when you apply power or strike....he will hit you right after you exhale. If he sees you working rhythmically like you are dancing.... he will hit you on the offbeat.

Well.... OK this if it where Police Military Sanda/Sanshou 






But ONLY for hitting trees.....Never trust a tree :EG:


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## pete

There's nothing wrong with practicing your form while enjoying music, just as there is nothing wrong with practicing your form while breathing!  The key word is 'while', and not trying to connect the patterns of energy within the form to either the rhythm of the sounds or the breath, but enjoying the awareness of each in supporting and complementing the experience as a whole.


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## Xue Sheng

To each his own&#8230; 

There is nothing wrong with doing Taijiquan and listening to music but&#8230; In my opinion and that is all it is my opinion it depends on why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it. 

If you are training Taijiquan forms and enjoying music... you are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan. 

If you are training Taijiquan forms and focusing on whether or not you left the coffee pot on&#8230; yyou are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.

If you are training Taijiquan forms and thinking about what happened at work today&#8230; you are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.

Basically, in my opinion, you are distracted while training

But like I said, to each his own... and it depends on why you are doing taijijquan... and this is only my opinion... your mileage may vary


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## mograph

I guess the question is: does listening to music increase or reduce the effectiveness of the _training_?

If the training requires concentration, to me, concentration is aided by the removal of distractions. If silence drove me nuts because of my own internal distractions ("monkey mind"), then music could help me remove those internal distractions, leaving only the external distraction of music (it would be better than silence in that case). Also, NLP practitioners prefer Baroque music to induce an Alpha state, conducive to learning, but that may be best used to _prepare_ the mind for learning -- not to be used _during_ learning.

I can also see the music's interfering with the process of physical introspection and task/concept learning, as we tend to have finite cognitive resources, and some of those would be taken up by the music's requesting our attention.

Personally, I only use soft slow music when I want to relax, and tango music (Yo-Yo Ma's _Libertango_) when i want to get my chi up a bit (no, I don't change my tempo to match the music). But if I want to _train_, to learn or ingrain a new skill, I do it in silence so I can pay attention to the subtle stuff (hopefully) going on inside.


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## Makalakumu

I think people might be misunderstanding how music is used with the Two Person dance that we performed.  It actually doesn't matter what kind of music you use.  The beat is what matters.  According to T.T. Liang, when he learned this training method, his sifu would use a drum to indicate when students would move on to the next pose.  Eventually, a training session encompassed a steady drum beat that set the pace of the drill according to the student's skill level.  As the student progressed, the faster the beat got.  

T.T. Liang was also a famous dancer in China and he decided to use the same training method but use musical beats instead.  He picked songs that students could practice with according to their ability level.  As you got better, you practiced faster and faster.  The "dance" aspect was only used as a metaphor later in order to help students relax.  The total Two Person "dance" has over 180 moves in it.  Imagine doing that in under a minute!

I experienced a lot of positive benefits from this.  I eventually stopped thinking about the moves and reacted instinctively.  People could improvise an attack from a different place in the set and I could pick up the attack with the defense from that section of the set.  Eventually, the music goes away and you just find the beat.  When I thought about it like a dance and not a fight, I could relax and have fun.  Two Person Dance days were very popular at my teacher's studio!  There was lots of laughter and the time flew by way too quickly.


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## Xue Sheng

A very wierd IE 9 thing as it applies to MT just happned so ignore this post...basically it blew up and posted twice all at the same time

Just move along, nothing to see here


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## Xue Sheng

Makalakumu said:


> I think people might be misunderstanding how music is used with the Two Person dance that we performed. It actually doesn't matter what kind of music you use. The beat is what matters. According to T.T. Liang, when he learned this training method, his sifu would use a drum to indicate when students would move on to the next pose. Eventually, a training session encompassed a steady drum beat that set the pace of the drill according to the student's skill level. As the student progressed, the faster the beat got.
> 
> T.T. Liang was also a famous dancer in China and he decided to use the same training method but use musical beats instead. He picked songs that students could practice with according to their ability level. As you got better, you practiced faster and faster. The "dance" aspect was only used as a metaphor later in order to help students relax. The total Two Person "dance" has over 180 moves in it. Imagine doing that in under a minute!
> 
> I experienced a lot of positive benefits from this. I eventually stopped thinking about the moves and reacted instinctively. People could improvise an attack from a different place in the set and I could pick up the attack with the defense from that section of the set. Eventually, the music goes away and you just find the beat. When I thought about it like a dance and not a fight, I could relax and have fun. Two Person Dance days were very popular at my teacher's studio! There was lots of laughter and the time flew by way too quickly.




I don't think there is misunderstanding, I just don't agree with it. And there was no drum beat involved in how my sifu learned or trained Taijiquan and it is the "beat" that I have issue with. You do everything in a rhythm and as my Xingyi sifu said, if I see you are following a rhythm...I will hit you on the offbeat... which will throw off your rhythm and then what&#8230;

Train any way that you like and enjoy, it is just that I don&#8217;t agree with it if you are training for martial purposes... but then what I think does not really matter anyway if you enjoy it keep doing it.


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## pete

Xue Sheng said:


> To each his own
> 
> There is nothing wrong with doing Taijiquan and listening to music but In my opinion and that is all it is my opinion it depends on why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it.
> 
> If you are training Taijiquan forms and enjoying music... you are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.
> 
> If you are training Taijiquan forms and focusing on whether or not you left the coffee pot on yyou are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.
> 
> If you are training Taijiquan forms and thinking about what happened at work today you are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.
> 
> Basically, in my opinion, you are distracted while training
> 
> But like I said, to each his own... and it depends on why you are doing taijijquan... and this is only my opinion... your mileage may vary



Actually, these 'distractions' are necessary realities that must be present within your training regimen.  The ability to accept the fact that you brewed coffee or had problems at work earlier in the day, and put them aside to as irrelevant to the present moment is an important aspect of developing what is know in tai chi as 'calm awareness.'   To ignore these things as if the do not exist is not the same, that would be pure fantasy.  To vary the environs of your practice is a step towards internalizing the art, and having it be inseparable from your everyday life.  So music some days, silence other days, inside vs outdoors, etc.  Especially if you are training for martial intent...  You won't always have the luxury of eliminating external 'distractions' to go into 'tai chi mode'.


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## Xue Sheng

pete said:


> Actually, these 'distractions' are necessary realities that must be present within your training regimen.  The ability to accept the fact that you brewed coffee or had problems at work earlier in the day, and put them aside to as irrelevant to the present moment is an important aspect of developing what is know in tai chi as 'calm awareness.'   To ignore these things as if the do not exist is not the same, that would be pure fantasy.  To vary the environs of your practice is a step towards internalizing the art, and having it be inseparable from your everyday life.  So music some days, silence other days, inside vs outdoors, etc.  Especially if you are training for martial intent...  You won't always have the luxury of eliminating external 'distractions' to go into 'tai chi mode'.



True, but training the form is not training reality is it, it is focusing on proper form and if any other focus it is used on the possibility of an opponant. Tuishou, push hands, two person forms and various other things are used to deal with distractions.

But regardless... do what you feel is best and I will do the same... it is not worth discussing or arguing further because history has shown we mostly do not agree.

enjoy the training


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## pete

uhh, if training the form is not training reality, then why bother?  Qigong, Form, Push Hands, Sparring... they all develop the same skills in different scenarios.  It is not as if there are separate concepts and principles for one vs the other.  Yes, the push hands and sparring will extend the challenge of those same internal principles to consider another person's intention, but that does not mean that the skills learned during solo practices of qigong and form are tossed aside. Instead, each of these practices will test the reality of your training and the reality of your skill.  Just as qigong will strengthen the form, so will push hands and sparring... which will in turn circle back to improve your qigong. 

if you feel this is not worth further discussion, no reply is necessary.  However, others on the board may choose otherwise.


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## Xue Sheng

DI did not say it was not worth discussing... I meant it was not worth us discussing or arguing further because history has shown we mostly do not agree. And I only respond because your post were directed at my posts but I shall stop after this to keep it civil and stay within MT rules

Others may choose to reply that is fine but for us to continue would only derail Makalakumu's topic.

Enjoy the training and have a nice day


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> ... but for us to continue would only derail Makalakumu's topic.


Y'know, the early posts in this thread seemed to answer the OP's question pretty well, but to advance the discussion, it would be interesting to hear more examples of the use of taijiquan in self-defence.


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## pete

Hopkins0603 said:


> Is thinking of taking up Tai Chi with a view to learning it as a martial art and dumb and wasted idea?


Direct Answer: NO...  Tai Chi is very effective as a means for self defense, but only when using it as the internal art that it is, and not trying to make it something it is not. Basically, by maintaining your composure and awareness you will learn to be patient, allow your opponent to commit to there intention first, but be ready to intercept, surprise and counter that attack.  Rather than anticipate, we wait.  Rather than tense up, we relax.  Rather than freeze, we energize ourselves.  Rather that focus, we maintain calm awareness.  In other styles, much of the practice is dedicated to what we will do to others (externally), such that punches are trained in repetitions to continuously increase the power and devastation that it may cause... where in tai chi we abide by principles such as 'no excess, no deficiency', so while the strike must be skillful and accurate and delivered from the correct angle and positioning, it need not be any more powerful than it has to be.  Therefore, much training is devoted to what we do with ourselves (internally) to maintain calm awareness, center the breath, develop balance, and be in-the-moment to avoid anticipating what you think may happen and instead wait for the opponents defect... and counter through skills such as timing and positioning.  Tai chi being continuous, trains you to understand that not every counter is going to be enough to bring you to safety, so again by using the principles of tai chi, we do not stop until there is an opportunity for escape to safety. That requires you to stay in-the-moment and maintain calm awareness before/during/after the physical altercation. 

That doesn't just happen, it require training and practice applying the internal principles through the art at different levels and scenarios.  Qigong develops the physical and energetic bodies through simple repetitive movements withing a single energy pattern; the Form (whichever style you choose) challenges you to adapt and challenge the energy patterns learned in qigong to a more dynamic practice changing, combining and blending the energy patterns; Pushing Hands further challenges you to maintain your posture and composure while engaged with another external entity, thereby not only protecting your center, but also by working your energy patterns with and against that of your partner; Sparring moves it up another notch, first by adding additional fear of getting hit (and for some the fear of hitting others).  Additionally, sparring detaches you physically from your opponent, so as opposed to pushing hands, you must rely solely on your energetic and emotional bodies to remain connected until contact is made.  

Now some folks will say, tai chi as a martial art is dead, or nobody teaches this anymore, or its been taken over by new age hipsters and turned into some sort of bad yoga dance.  I say the Truth is Out There, but like anything else that has value, it will take time and money and EFFORT on your part if you want to find it and actually train tai chi for self defense.

Peace & Tao,
Pete


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## rickster

pete said:


> Direct Answer: NO...  Tai Chi is very effective as a means for self defense, but only when using it as the internal art that it is, and not trying to make it something it is not. Basically, by maintaining your composure and awareness you will learn to be patient, allow your opponent to commit to there intention first, but be ready to intercept, surprise and counter that attack.  Rather than anticipate, we wait.  Rather than tense up, we relax.  Rather than freeze, we energize ourselves.  Rather that focus, we maintain calm awareness.  In other styles, much of the practice is dedicated to what we will do to others (externally), such that punches are trained in repetitions to continuously increase the power and devastation that it may cause... where in tai chi we abide by principles such as 'no excess, no deficiency', so while the strike must be skillful and accurate and delivered from the correct angle and positioning, it need not be any more powerful than it has to be.  Therefore, much training is devoted to what we do with ourselves (internally) to maintain calm awareness, center the breath, develop balance, and be in-the-moment to avoid anticipating what you think may happen and instead wait for the opponents defect... and counter through skills such as timing and positioning.  Tai chi being continuous, trains you to understand that not every counter is going to be enough to bring you to safety, so again by using the principles of tai chi, we do not stop until there is an opportunity for escape to safety. That requires you to stay in-the-moment and maintain calm awareness before/during/after the physical altercation.
> 
> That doesn't just happen, it require training and practice applying the internal principles through the art at different levels and scenarios.  Qigong develops the physical and energetic bodies through simple repetitive movements withing a single energy pattern; the Form (whichever style you choose) challenges you to adapt and challenge the energy patterns learned in qigong to a more dynamic practice changing, combining and blending the energy patterns; Pushing Hands further challenges you to maintain your posture and composure while engaged with another external entity, thereby not only protecting your center, but also by working your energy patterns with and against that of your partner; Sparring moves it up another notch, first by adding additional fear of getting hit (and for some the fear of hitting others).  Additionally, sparring detaches you physically from your opponent, so as opposed to pushing hands, you must rely solely on your energetic and emotional bodies to remain connected until contact is made.
> 
> Now some folks will say, tai chi as a martial art is dead, or nobody teaches this anymore, or its been taken over by new age hipsters and turned into some sort of bad yoga dance.  I say the Truth is Out There, but like anything else that has value, it will take time and money and EFFORT on your part if you want to find it and actually train tai chi for self defense.
> 
> Peace & Tao,
> Pete



We have to distinguish between Tai Chi, and Tai Chi Quan


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## chubbybutdangerous

I'm not an official tai chi student.  Eskrima is my main art.  But have some boxing and various grappling styles under my belt.  But my teacher knows tai chi and has taught me a little, concentrating on I would call certain principles.  And all I can say is that tai chi performed someone who's good and has a great understanding of it's principles can certainly use it for defense.  As a matter of fact when my teacher really wants to demonstrate how to hit with power I know he uses tai chi.  Again, I'm no expert on tai chi, but my experience with my teacher says it is truly a viable form of self defense.


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## mograph

On this and other forums, "tai chi" and "taijiquan" are used interchangeably, it will always be thus. I don't think anyone here gives a rat's patootie about sleepy hand-waving that some call "tai chi", so let's assume we're talking about taijiquan in this forum.

That said, I believe tai chi can be quite effective, although I assume that its value requires contact, and a sensitivity to the opponent's intentions (or energy patterns, as Pete has described). The opponent attacks, you intercept by touch, you read his intentions (if you haven't already), you lead him in or you lead him out, maybe whacking him somewhere along the way. That's vastly oversimplified, but I think that once one gets an understanding of the way that tai chi defends against opponents, one can gain an appreciation for its place in the martial continuum. 

It's like "different horses for different courses": xingyi approaches combat this way, aikido approaches it that way, and so on. My two cents.


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## Bill Mattocks

[video=youtube_share;wQ8DLJ3q97c]http://youtu.be/wQ8DLJ3q97c[/video]


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## hechavez

I have a blue sash in Yang style Tai Chi Chuan.  We do the 8-jeweled Qi Gong exercises to warm up.  Then we do brush knee walking, partition of the horse's mane, cloudy hand, and the Tai Chi Yang style 8-form.  We also do push hands.  Tai Chi defense against the punch, using brush knee or partition of the horse's main, and countering with a punch.  Tai Chi Chuan Yang is an internal martial art, that channels Chi (life force).  Advanced Tai Chi students practice with a fan, bamboo flute, and sword.  I also have a purple sash in Choy Li Fut Kung Fu.  

I am 1/4 Amoy Chinese. 5/16 Cebuano, Negrito, Tamil, Apache, Cherokee, and 1/64 Basco.  I have Neanderthal in my dna, and my bones are dense.  This is just informative.  I will be testing for my blue sash in Choy Li Fut Kung Fu soon.  I am a Baha'i by faith.  Wish me luck.  Daghang Salamat.  Have a wonderful day.


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## oaktree

I'd like to know more about the flute and it's role in Yang taijiquan.


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## pete

personally, i am a little more curious about the 'neanderthal dna'....


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## TieXiongJi

Before I begin, please know that I have studied Taiji for 12 years which includes varying levels of expertise in Chen, Yang, Sun, Competition, Wu styles and forms.

Taiji is the best martial art. I have studied under many different instructors and styles, who studied under many different instructors and styles, and I could layout a long argument why Taiji is the best and describe the myriad benefits in detail, but I will leave it at this; There is no downside to studying Taiji unless you wind up with a poor teacher.

Continued advice:
Correct for the poor teacher by either competing or lots of in depth study using quality websites, quality videos and quality mentors and peers for constant feedback. You must scrutinize yourself and learn the small details to really understand the subtlety of many techniques. My favorite thing about Taiji is feeling your way through a technique. Mimicry will only take you so far; you will have to understand your movement, your opponents' real and false movement. Further, the only way to do so is to feel it with your own sense of self and contact with others.

I recommend Taiji above all other martial arts, but never exclude learning skills outside of your current instructor's set.


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