# Do cross hand grabs to the wrist happen much in real fights?



## TaiChiTJ (Mar 8, 2005)

I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?


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## agatanai atsilahu (Mar 8, 2005)

In a word no. At least thats my experience. I have NEVER seen anyone start an attack by trying to secure their opponents wrist by grabbing. As an attacker is just isnt feasable, as there are far many more viable attacks to do damage. As a defender, perhaps on rare occasions one may be afforded the opportunity to apply a cross grab. In my opinion, any kind of joint manipulation, or lock has to be set up by a combination of events, and/or a grappling type situation, which general is not the initial attack. No offense to anyone but it just isnt practical in my book. When you grab for a limb, you tie up one of your offensive weapons, now I know there are circumstances for everything, and wrist techniques may still be useful to know, but I strongly doubt you'll come across the need to use them if attacked on the street.


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## TigerWoman (Mar 8, 2005)

I think anything can happen in a real encounter.  Frontally, attacker to the left offset,his right can grab your right very easily...like in walking past you on your right.  Coming from the back, if you have just pulled open your rear car door and using your left to open it, your right is back and could be grabbed with the attacker's right as that is the hand commonly used for right-handers.  If the attacker gets in your face, close, and you bring up your right hand, it can be grabbed by his right.  So, the answer is yes...TW


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## MJS (Mar 8, 2005)

I agree with TW. Anything can happen and we certainly can't predict what can and can't.  Now, is it the most common attack for a man to grab another man on the wrist?  Probably not, but again, it could happen.  I would say that it may be more common for a man to grab a woman that way.

Mike


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## agatanai atsilahu (Mar 8, 2005)

I agree whole heartedly that nothing can be predicted. However I think we can rely on experience, and the wisdom of things seen. So technically maybe it could happen, but I said no because I would tend to dwell on more pertinent possibilities. A squirrel can have a coronary fall from tree and crack you on the cranium, but are what are the chances. I stated that of course train for these things, as all training is valuable to me, better to be prepared for anything, but i stand behind my statement that you likely will never encounter such an attack. By the im just re enforcing my position while trying to clarify it somewhat, please dont see this post as argumentitive or inflammatory, no offense towards anyone


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## MJS (Mar 8, 2005)

agatanai atsilahu said:
			
		

> I agree whole heartedly that nothing can be predicted. However I think we can rely on experience, and the wisdom of things seen. So technically maybe it could happen, but I said no because I would tend to dwell on more pertinent possibilities. A squirrel can have a coronary fall from tree and crack you on the cranium, but are what are the chances. I stated that of course train for these things, as all training is valuable to me, better to be prepared for anything, but i stand behind my statement that you likely will never encounter such an attack. By the im just re enforcing my position while trying to clarify it somewhat, please dont see this post as argumentitive or inflammatory, no offense towards anyone



Not a problem and no offense taken! :asian: 

I agree..its better to be prepared, than not be.  Personally, I would think that there would be many other initiations to an assault rather than a wrist grab.  I would still say though that this may be a more common attack against a woman.

Good discussion so far!!! :ultracool 

Mike


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## DarrenJew (Mar 8, 2005)

Maybe a woman on a date would get grabbed by the wrist, if the date got a little rough. Or a shopkeeper will grab the wrist of a kid that just pocketed something. 

Normally on the street you may find:
I think most confrontations will start with verbal insults and may escalate to fists... if you have a cell phone and want to call the police, a guy may grab your wrist to stop you from calling.
I do not think a mugger will normally grab your wrist... most likely pull a knife or threaten you with something else... ask for your wallet. If the mugger is not in the mood to talk... hed probably try to catch you off guard and maybe blindside you with a punch and kick you a few times while your on the ground, then take what he wants. If you expect to get dragged into an alley and get mugged.. he may grab you coat or sleave, but most likely some type of choke hold I think.

Just some thoughts??? I've never been mugged... and no fights with any wrist grabbing.

Though I've been attack with a chokehold from behind... I ended up bending forwards at the hip and kinda tossed them over my back to break the hold. (It wasn't a mugging situation.... It was because someone heard I took a martial art, and thought they could take me on. "Like sneeking up behind someone and attacking them is a fare fight." I normally, try to keep my art silent just because of things like this. I ended up punching them and now I have a Zero tolerance suite against me.... oh well, it's still in mediation cant really discuss it.)


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 8, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?


Let me put it to you this way...If I go to a defensive tactics class as a police officer, and the first hour is dedicated to ways to escape the cross hand wrist grab, i'll walk out of the door. The "Grab my wrist" defense has become something of a running joke in our training circles.  Being a bit of a cynic myself, I tend to think it's so prevelent a training topic because it's easy to impress (see also: Dupe) new people with when it's demonstrated at 20% power.  Irregardless, I haven't seen an epidemic of wrist grabbing going on in recent years....Maybe because self-defense instructors have so thoroughly defended us against wrists grabs, that this devastating and effective combat move isn't used anymore (lol).


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## FearlessFreep (Mar 9, 2005)

I think any 'street fight' scenario needs to be consider in terms of likely scenarios:  Since I learn TKD with my kids, I tend to think of 'what if' scenarios based on both me as a 35 year old male, and my 12 year old son and 10 year old daughter.

Some I can think of for myself include:
1. Some drunk at night club getting offended at something I do, innocently ( I don't drink much when out playing; I'm married and don't flirt)
2. Random mugging
3. Car accident causing 'road rage' attack

For my kids it includes:
1. Grabbed/abduction attempt by stranger (especially my daughters)
2. Fight with kids their age.

In other words, before asking myself what's likely to happen in a fight, I try to think of how I, or my children, to come to be in a fight.  That will probably shape what sort of attacks you are likely to face, I would think

I don't have any experience to say whether wrists grabs would be likely or not.  We have learned a few escapes from them in class but I take it mostly as examples in how the body moves and reacts and how to manipulate the body.  A wrist grab defense may not be very useful in that you may never be grabbed in an encounter, but I would guess it's a good starting point to learn because it's relatively non-aggresive and can get someone used to the contact needed.  (Punches, shoves, kicks, etc...are probably more likely to happen in 'real life' but are also a bit more violent to practice so may be a difficult technique to introduce newbies with)

Just some random thoughts


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## Ceicei (Mar 9, 2005)

The only time this type of situation has ever happened (before I learned martial arts) was when a guy grabbed my right wrist with his right hand and tried to twist my arm back (or what is commonly known in kenpo as a "hammer lock"). I got out by elbowing his head with my free arm and kicking his knee.

 Another altercation I saw was a guy grabbing the girl's left wrist with a left cross hand grab and hitting her hard in the head with his right hand. Since the attack was from her "blind" side (happened from the flank side, not from the front), she couldn't defend very well against him that way.

 I would have to agree with others that this type of cross hand grabs may not be as common, but happens more with male/female confrontations.

  - Ceicei


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## FearlessFreep (Mar 9, 2005)

I live in New Mexico.  High rates of domestic violence.  I would agree it would seem more likely between male-female if the male is trying to force the female to do something or go someplace she doesn't want

One reason I have my daughters in class.


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## Ceicei (Mar 9, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I live in New Mexico. High rates of domestic violence. I would agree it would seem more likely between male-female if the male is trying to force the female to do something or go someplace she doesn't want
> 
> One reason I have my daughters in class.


 These incidents that happened with me and my friends were in Albuquerque, New Mexico (my childhood state). That said, I don't think the Southwest has a claim on domestic violence rate. Utah's domestic violence is pretty much a "hidden dirty laundry". Nobody really wants to talk about the issue here.  This would be another issue for a different thread.  

 Now back to cross hand  grabs....

   - Ceicei


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## RRouuselot (Mar 9, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?


 
 Have I seen it happen? No.
 Could it happen? Maybe. 
 I don't see many fights where the guy has a chance to kick to the head but I train to defend against it too.


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## Bod (Mar 9, 2005)

I would think that a cross hand grab would be very important in any weapons related fighting.


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2005)

Speaking as a police officer and former bouncer, ANYTHING is possible in a real world fight..


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## PatMunk (Mar 9, 2005)

I'm not going to say that the cross hand wrist grab is going to be a common attack... BUT ... practicing techniques for that is very important to our training. Let's look at someone trying to hit us with a right punch or right hand push. If you step to the outside of the striking/pushing arm and parry with the left and then continue with an outward blocking motion with the right hand and grab the attackers wrist, what do you have?

You have put yourself in a position where both of your right hands are in contact. It is the same position you would be in if it was a cross hand wrist grab and the follow up will work the same way. 

Cross hand wrist grabs might not be the attack of preference for an attacker but we can use the defense for a cross hand wrist grab for most anything that comes at us from any position that puts our right or left hands in contact with the opponents right or left hand.

So I say learn cross hand defenses to be used within your techniques for other attacks as well.

Pat Munk, Shichidan
Tracy's Kenpo Karate


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2005)

I used to kind of question this too.  Then a tragedy happened in our area that was caught on security camera.

 In the Portland, Oregon area, about a year ago or so, a teenage girl was walking home from school, cutting across a parking lot when a man walking the opposite way stepped into her path directly in front of her, grabbed her right wrist with his right hand, said something to her, transferred the grip to his left hand and continued walking with her at his side, in his grip, in the direction she was walking.

 She was abducted, raped and murdered.

 My daughter's first reaction upon seeing the incident, "Ohmygod, I can get out of that!"  She thought it was a training tape.  A few moments later when she realized it was a news broadcast she was floored.  She actually just sat down where she was.  So did I.

 I agree with other real-worldists here and say anything ... _anything_ ... can happen.


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## FearlessFreep (Mar 9, 2005)

Agreeing with Drac, the reason I talked abuot scenarios is that I think that for different people and different kinds of people, fights may happen for many different reasons and, as such, hard to say what will really happen


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## KyleShort (Mar 9, 2005)

You may be forgetting two things:

First a right to right wrist grab is much less "cross body" if both attacker and defender are in bladded stances.

Also, in a weapons engagement, wrist grabs are much more common for both trained and untrained.  Speaking of real world experience...I too have not seen many wrist grabs in unarmed confrontations, but I have seen a ton when things like baseball bats, pieces of wood etc. come into play.  Certainly when two people struggle over control of the weapon, there are a lot of wrist grabs.  It can also be found used as a first line of defense by attempting to jam and grab the weapon arm before they are able to attack with it. 

Happens all the time in weapons sparring too...although that is not a direct judge of reality of course.


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## RBaddorf (Mar 9, 2005)

http://www.skfriends.com/kvz/dirrer/movies/carlie-brucia-video/020104-edit.MOV


The actual abduction. 


I had a guy grab me by the wrist when I was walking down Magsaisai Street, and try to pull me into an alley...his wrist broke.

A drunk grabbed my training partners wrist in a bar because the drunk thought Mark's change from our beers was his (the drunk's). Bar tender jumped on the guy while Mark was waiting to see if things needed to be escalated or not. 

Granted, it don't happen often... but it does happen.

Ron


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## Floating Egg (Mar 9, 2005)

Isn't there also a principle being attached to the wrist grab defense? In the Bujinkan, with Omote Gyaku, which is done from a lapel grab, it's the principle that's being transfered. Omote Gyaku can be applied from a wrist grab, a neck grab, a shoulder grab etc.


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2005)

RBaddorf said:
			
		

> http://www.skfriends.com/kvz/dirrer/movies/carlie-brucia-video/020104-edit.MOV
> 
> 
> The actual abduction.


Thanks for posting this.  

 I was wrong - that was same-side.  

  But I'd agree that most wrist grabs are either done with weapons (as mentioned) or man-on-woman.


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## loki09789 (Mar 9, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?


Some traps and weapons defense/disarms are meant for the right hand because that is the weapon dominate/side dominance that most people seem to have.


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## FearlessFreep (Mar 9, 2005)

_
 Isn't there also a principle being attached to the wrist grab defense? In the Bujinkan, with Omote Gyaku, which is done from a lapel grab, it's the principle that's being transfered. Omote Gyaku can be applied from a wrist grab, a neck grab, a shoulder grab etc._

 Depends on the defense, I suppose. There are principals in terms of what direction to put pressure against the wrist that work regardless of what is grabbed. I think the angle of the arm grabbing in relationship to your hands will effect how you can/will apply that principle.


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 9, 2005)

agatanai atsilahu said:
			
		

> I agree whole heartedly that nothing can be predicted. However I think we can rely on experience, and the wisdom of things seen. So technically maybe it could happen, but I said no because I would tend to dwell on more pertinent possibilities. A squirrel can have a coronary fall from tree and crack you on the cranium, but are what are the chances. I stated that of course train for these things, as all training is valuable to me, better to be prepared for anything, but i stand behind my statement that you likely will never encounter such an attack. By the im just re enforcing my position while trying to clarify it somewhat, please dont see this post as argumentitive or inflammatory, no offense towards anyone


I have to agree with you on this one. I've been in plenty of scrapes. Hell, in my line of work on a nightly basis, and I've never seen nor experienced anyone trying to grab me or anyone else that way. Just doesn't happen.


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## agatanai atsilahu (Mar 9, 2005)

Just a breif commentary on the abduction. I work with children, and am certified through the natioanl security council's kid safe program. Regardless of what grip or grab that scum used, the sad truth is that she was ill prepared for any technique. Chances are that she was emmediately griped by fear, or duped by a ploy. ploys are a child predators expertise. They study childrens behavior like a sick science. when it comes to our kids the signifigance of this tech or that tech falls rapidly to the wayside. Lets just get all of our kids trained. Compliance is old school thought. Its all about fighting back, if you are taken to a secondary location, you are dead. As scary as it is for kids, together with their folks we need to see all of them properly trained, not only in self defense, but in alert prevention, observational skills training, and even though scary, teach them about what they are up against.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 10, 2005)

I hear people saying "Anything can happen" and that's true.  But, is the wrist grab so prevalent that we need to dedicated hours of valuable training time preparing for a rare situation.  That's the real question.  We can prepare for everything if we have an infinite amount of training time, but we don't.  Besides, I think the wrist grab threat can be dealt with without learning a few dozen SPECIFIC counters to the wrist grab.  For example, I know more than a few boxers and muay thai practitioners, and none of them have probably ever trained specifically to counter a wrist grab. However, i'll bet you a large amount of money that no one will EVER hang on to their wrist very long.  I'd prefer to train people in a few high percentage techniques that can be used in multiple situations, than train a lot of scenario specific techniques, trying to cover every possible scenario.


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## loki09789 (Mar 10, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I hear people saying "Anything can happen" and that's true. But, is the wrist grab so prevalent that we need to dedicated hours of valuable training time preparing for a rare situation. That's the real question. We can prepare for everything if we have an infinite amount of training time, but we don't. Besides, I think the wrist grab threat can be dealt with without learning a few dozen SPECIFIC counters to the wrist grab. For example, I know more than a few boxers and muay thai practitioners, and none of them have probably ever trained specifically to counter a wrist grab. However, i'll bet you a large amount of money that no one will EVER hang on to their wrist very long. I'd prefer to train people in a few high percentage techniques that can be used in multiple situations, than train a lot of scenario specific techniques, trying to cover every possible scenario.


Kenpo and FMA are conceptual arts so, even though it may look like a class is entirely devoted to one or two 'wrist grabs' what is actually happening is the early phases of conceptualization.  The same motions that are applied in that specific wrist grab escape can be translated to a punch defense, an armbar..... and the mental exercise of finding different applications for that series of mechanical motions is just as important in the development of adaptability/tactical sense as training any one specific technique.


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## pesilat (Mar 10, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?



As others have pointed out, this is more likely when a man is trying to start something with a woman.

However, here's a type of scenario that a lot of people overlook (if it's already been mentioned in the thread, I apologize, I was too lazy to read the whole thread).

In the Filipino martial arts that I train, we primarily train locks as a method of weapon retention - i.e.: the guy grabs your wrist to get control of your weapon or set up for a disarm or whatever. Extrapolating from there leads to a few possible scenarios that come to my mind right off:

I'm reaching for a phone or already have it in hand to call the cops and a guy grabs my wrist to prevent it.

I've got my keys in my hand about to get in my car and a guy grabs my wrist to try to get the keys from my hand - maybe he hits me first (if he's smart) but if the hit doesn't knock me loopy then I may still be able to do something.

A guy could grab my wrist just to try to steal something from my hand - my wallet or money or my watch.

These are just the first that come to my mind. I'm sure there are others in this vein that could happen.

Mike


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 10, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Kenpo and FMA are conceptual arts so, even though it may look like a class is entirely devoted to one or two 'wrist grabs' what is actually happening is the early phases of conceptualization. The same motions that are applied in that specific wrist grab escape can be translated to a punch defense, an armbar..... and the mental exercise of finding different applications for that series of mechanical motions is just as important in the development of adaptability/tactical sense as training any one specific technique.


Believe me, i've heard that before. I'm a little more cynical about the motive of teaching wrist grabs, however. I think it's just easier to teach, and it's impressive at 20% power. That's why a lot of defensive tactics instructors teach it to police, anyway, to give the impression of teaching a useful technique, without having to actually teach a useful technique.  That, and it's low impact, and administrator friendly (meaning, it doesn't look like it will get the city sued).


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 10, 2005)

pesilat said:
			
		

> As others have pointed out, this is more likely when a man is trying to start something with a woman.
> 
> However, here's a type of scenario that a lot of people overlook (if it's already been mentioned in the thread, I apologize, I was too lazy to read the whole thread).
> 
> ...


It's been my theory that there are so many wrists grabs taught in systems like Aikijujutsu and other japanese systems because of the holdover from the samurai period, when attacking the weapon hand to control it, to prevent the drawing of the sword, was common. In that sense, wrist grab training is a bit anachronistic. It's much like the old story about the little girl and the ham. 

"A little girl asks her mother, who's preparing for Thanksgiving dinner 'mom, why do you cut the ends off of the ham before putting it in the oven'? Mom responds, 'I don't know, your grandmother always did it that way, so I do to'. So the little girl asks her grandmother the same question. The grandmother responds, 'well, it's the way your great grand mother always did it, so I did it that way, go ask your great grand mother.' So the little girl asks her great grand mother about cutting the ends off of the ham. Great grand mother laughs and says 'well, I don't know why your mother and grand mother do it, but I always did it because my pan was too small to fit the ham in.'"

Not to say that teaching a couple of wrists grabs is a bad idea, but imho spending a lot of valuable training time training wrists grabs is a disservice to those who are expected to use the techniques taught them to defend themselves.


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## Shu2jack (Mar 10, 2005)

I agree with loki09789. From how I was taught wrist escapes as a TKDist, I can apply pretty much the same motions and mechanics to various other defenses. 

As far as "real world/street" application, I humbly submit that perhaps not all techniques and defenses are meant for "hard core street violence" use. They could be used as such, but the thread seems to focus on extreme violence.

How many of us have had "friends" being jerks and messing with you? At school, you would get in trobule for hitting someone, but if the teacher isn't looking some kids would grab your wrist to try to intimidate you. How many of us have been in situations where the "attacker's" intentions did not warrent a total butt-kicking, but you had to do something to get them off of you?

I guess what I am trying to say is that not all techniques are appropiate for all situations and violence levels. I think someone who is trying to kill me would employ a more effective method to neutralize my defenses other than a wrist grab. Someone who isn't trying to cause me serious harm, but has other motives or intimidation in mind would probably be more likly to use a wrist grab. We shouldn't train solely for the worst-case situation!


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## RRouuselot (Mar 10, 2005)

The way I see it is if the attacker has gotten close enough to you that they can grab your wrist before you do anything your have already screwed up.


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## pesilat (Mar 10, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> It's been my theory that there are so many wrists grabs taught in systems like Aikijujutsu and other japanese systems because of the holdover from the samurai period, when attacking the weapon hand to control it, to prevent the drawing of the sword, was common. In that sense, wrist grab training is a bit anachronistic. It's much like the old story about the little girl and the ham.
> 
> "A little girl asks her mother, who's preparing for Thanksgiving dinner 'mom, why do you cut the ends off of the ham before putting it in the oven'? Mom responds, 'I don't know, your grandmother always did it that way, so I do to'. So the little girl asks her grandmother the same question. The grandmother responds, 'well, it's the way your great grand mother always did it, so I did it that way, go ask your great grand mother.' So the little girl asks her great grand mother about cutting the ends off of the ham. Great grand mother laughs and says 'well, I don't know why your mother and grand mother do it, but I always did it because my pan was too small to fit the ham in.'"
> 
> Not to say that teaching a couple of wrists grabs is a bad idea, but imho spending a lot of valuable training time training wrists grabs is a disservice to those who are expected to use the techniques taught them to defend themselves.




I agree completely that they can be overemphasize them - and I've seen classes that do just that. But I think they do have a valid place in training.

Mike


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## pesilat (Mar 10, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> The way I see it is if the attacker has gotten close enough to you that they can grab your wrist before you do anything your have already screwed up.



LOL. Looks good on paper and, in theory, I agree with you. But try to keep people from getting that close while shopping for a Christmas gift in the holiday bustle at your local mall.

A lot of situations like that can be avoided - i.e.: do your Christmas shopping in July. But it's not always possible. I've walked down the sidewalk in various cities - San Francisco and Chicago come first to mind - where the pedestrian traffic was high enough that it was impossible to keep everyone out of my personal space. And I was just walking to work or shopping ... there was nothing extraordinary about those days that drew crowds, they were just average days.

And when I was in China last year ... good lord! Not only were there people everywhere pretty much all the time, they have _no_ concept of personal space - at least not in the same way we do here in the States. And they often gave me wide berth (by their standards) because I was a big redheaded white demon  But by my standards, they were practically riding in my hip pocket even when they were doing their best to give me room.

Mike


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## Cruentus (Mar 11, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?



Without reading everyones responses, I would say wrist grabs do not happened the way they do in a fight as they are generally practiced in a training environment.

However, there is validity in training "from a wrist grab." It helps teach the student how to move and spacial relationship with an opponent...the wrist grab gives you a good reference point, which is very useful for breaking down and learning techniques. There is a lot of wisdom in training from the wrist grab for building long term skills...

Paul


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## TaiChiTJ (Mar 13, 2005)

Thanks for providing a very interesting discussion on this topic.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 15, 2005)

pesilat said:
			
		

> I agree completely that they can be overemphasize them - and I've seen classes that do just that. But I think they do have a valid place in training.
> 
> Mike


My problem isn't so much that wrist grabs may have a place in training, but that, just as you've said, some systems seem to overemphasize them to the point of being ridiculous.  Like I said earlier, it's a running joke among my collegues that if we go to a seminar, and we hear "grab my wrist", we'll walk out the door.


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 15, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> My problem isn't so much that wrist grabs may have a place in training, but that, just as you've said, some systems seem to overemphasize them to the point of being ridiculous. Like I said earlier, it's a running joke among my collegues that if we go to a seminar, and we hear "grab my wrist", we'll walk out the door.


LOL! I'm with you brother! Sure they have their place in training, but the way they are introduced and trained a lot of times is very unrealistic.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 16, 2005)

Nanalo74 said:
			
		

> LOL! I'm with you brother! Sure they have their place in training, but the way they are introduced and trained a lot of times is very unrealistic.
> 
> Vic www.combatartsusa.com


Didn't figure I was the only one who felt that way about the wrist grab.  I must have been taught a couple thousand ways to escape a wrist grab in my life, and the only time i've seen a wrist grabbed like that is when someone says  "grab my wrist".  That's usually followed by "not with that hand, with the other hand". Then, when it's finally sorted out which hand is grabbing which wrist, we get to see some very dramatic and impressive (static) technique to escape it.  I always break out in to hysterical laughter anytime I see a wrist grab technique now days.  But, having reflected on it, I guess I shouldn't make so much fun as I suppose wrist grab techniques do have a role.  


Hey, by the way.....grab my wrist


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## Bod (Mar 16, 2005)

BJJ developed gazillions of submissions from the guard.

Judo has bazillion etchinques for throwing someone in a jacket.

TKD has fifty fazillion high kick combinations.

What's wrong with a system which has thousands of wrist grab counters?

Just don't train it as your sole method of self defence.


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## pesilat (Mar 16, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Didn't figure I was the only one who felt that way about the wrist grab.  I must have been taught a couple thousand ways to escape a wrist grab in my life, and the only time i've seen a wrist grabbed like that is when someone says  "grab my wrist".  That's usually followed by "not with that hand, with the other hand". Then, when it's finally sorted out which hand is grabbing which wrist, we get to see some very dramatic and impressive (static) technique to escape it.  I always break out in to hysterical laughter anytime I see a wrist grab technique now days.  But, having reflected on it, I guess I shouldn't make so much fun as I suppose wrist grab techniques do have a role.
> 
> 
> Hey, by the way.....grab my wrist



When you put it that way, it does have a certain "pull my finger" ring to it, doesn't it? :lol: 

Mike


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## Tremble (Mar 16, 2005)

LOL.

I was on the verge of getting T shirts printed up at one point to tease some of my Aikido friends.

On the front- "AIKIDOKA"

On the back- "GRAB MY WRIST AND MAKE MY DAY!"


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 17, 2005)

Hey Guys, my protoge Vic[Nanolo74} told me about this thread and all I could say was "grab this". In the context of the Kali I teach ,the wrist grab defences are taught to counter someone grabbing your weapon hand.I also think its important to know such techniques and practice them in hubud and chi sao, but as a former hard drinking,fight starting maniac, the only time anyone ever grabbed my wrist was the bouncer of whatever club I was being thrown out of LOL.As far as JKD is concerned I know for a fact Bruce Lees counter to a wrist grab was a punch right to the snout.In a fight you should be HITTING, not looking to do some "crazy thing".I have taught seminars all over the US to people of every imaginable style and someone allways asks about "how do you get out of this?" When I tell them to hold my wrist as tight as they can then punch them in the nose, its always" wow I never thought of that" Just my two cents, Barry  www.combatartsusa.com  d


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## madfrank (Mar 17, 2005)

Hii

No these attacks do not happen often in reality according to the police statistics I've read and my personal experience.



I may get cross hand wrist grabbed but if I do ill probably punch, kick, knee, gouge, etc him.



So I dont need to waste time training specifically for this. IMNSHO.

It's like arts that spend 50% of their training doing the opposite side blocks etc in case the attacker is left handed.

Only 17% of ppl are so dont waste training time, be real.







MF


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## Adept (Mar 17, 2005)

Well, I look at things like this in several ways. One, if a man is trying to assault a woman, or drag her away, a grab to the wrist is more likely to occur than durng a blue between two blokes in a pub.

 The same applies when someone might try to assault or drag away a child.

 Also, the basic defenses against a wrist grab that we run through in the 'grab my wrist' drills set basic movement principles that are expanded on later in terms of joint maipulation.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 17, 2005)

Sifu Barry Cuda said:
			
		

> Hey Guys, my protoge Vic[Nanolo74} told me about this thread and all I could say was "grab this". In the context of the Kali I teach ,the wrist grab defences are taught to counter someone grabbing your weapon hand.I also think its important to know such techniques and practice them in hubud and chi sao, but as a former hard drinking,fight starting maniac, the only time anyone ever grabbed my wrist was the bouncer of whatever club I was being thrown out of LOL.As far as JKD is concerned I know for a fact Bruce Lees counter to a wrist grab was a punch right to the snout.In a fight you should be HITTING, not looking to do some "crazy thing".I have taught seminars all over the US to people of every imaginable style and someone allways asks about "how do you get out of this?" When I tell them to hold my wrist as tight as they can then punch them in the nose, its always" wow I never thought of that" Just my two cents, Barry www.combatartsusa.com d


A few punches to the snoot and some kicks to the low-line breaks a wrist lock nearly every time.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 17, 2005)

I gotta be honest with everyone. I do remember one occassion when I was grabbed by the wrist in a confrontation. I don't know why it didn't come to me before, but i'll share it with the forum. 

I was maybe 18, and this guy picked a fight with me at a party outside of town. He was in the process of brutally beating the air near my face with near misses, when he got tired of getting jabbed in the nose and swinging back at nothing. He decided to grab the offending hand to prevent it from punching further, and to grab me by the hair of the head with the other hand. 

It must have seemed like a good plan until he realized that I was born with TWO hands, not just one. He realized this as the flat of my palm began tapping out morris code by slapping him repeatedly in the groin. Just when I seemed to have his undivided attention, I emphasized my point by grabbing him by the throat and squeezing it shut. I'll save everyone from the gory details of the rest of the fight, except to say it involved some elbows, a few thai leg kicks and a whole lot of back-pedalling and apologizing. 

Suffice to say, I guess I must admit to lying when I said i'd never seen a wrist grabbed in a real fight, as I had mine grabbed once. I prefer my response to the wrist escapes I learned subsequent to that day, however.


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## sifu Adams (Mar 17, 2005)

I have seen this used two ways.  

1.  I have seen Modern arnis use it as a set up move.  example is they will throw a haymaker type move to draw your hand up. a unexperance person most of the time will grab at the hand.  from there as Ramy would put it " game over"

2.  I have also seen (and done) where they will grab your right arm and pull it across and down towards you left hip.  if done right your oppont can't kick or punch and you have there whole side and back to do as you please.


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## Bod (Mar 18, 2005)

The 'punch the snot out of grabber' defence is great if you have equal or superior weaponry or strength to the guy grabbing.

If the chances of them winning the one handed snot punching contest are high then you want to escape that wrist grab and get out of there.


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## KenpoNoChikara (Mar 18, 2005)

Like a few people have already said, it would be more likely to happen to a woman then a man. This is usually something taught at a women's self defense class at my dojo.


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## white belt (Mar 19, 2005)

In a case of mistaken identity I had a very large tuff, with a few beers in him, knock on my door to kick the snot out of someone he was looking for.  This was about twenty five years ago and I had about one year of MA training.  When I opened the door to see who it was he shoved his way in and I backed away a few steps thinking "holy ****"!  I put my hands up in a reflex defensive response and he grabbed my left wrist with his left hand and pulled me toward him.  I went on total autopilot.  I wrapped my left hand around his left wrist in response, went with his pull, and slammed the knuckles of my right fist into his left temple.  He went backward and hit the closed door.  His eyes were still open and I thought he was still conscious.  I then hit him three more times in the head as he tumbled to the floor.  His eyes were still open.  As he lay on the floor, my girlfriend called 911 as I watched for him coming to and attacking or ceasing to breath.  Cops came in 5 minutes flat.  I explained the situation as they tried to revive him.  I saw him on a balcony elsewhere in the apartment building earlier that night and showed the cops where I thought he came from.  I told them I would not press charges if he promised to never bother me again after we made out a report.  The cops revived him and helped him to his apartment to the greeting of his surprised wife.  Apparently she came out of the restroom to find him gone and did not know where he went!  I thought his inability to walk well was from beers.  My girlfriend and I saw him around for a couple of months after and his wife was helping him walk to and from their car.  We avoided contact and so did they.  I found out later that he was suffering from some type of temporary motor function loss from my hitting him and he was going to therapy of some type when we saw him being walked by his wife.  I looked over my shoulder for a long time after that and was thankful that: 1) I was drilled on a couple of basic wrist grab reversals and 2) I didn't accidently kill the poor stooge.

Only wrist grab fix I ever had to initiate (Thank God).
One added note: I lived in a 3rd floor apt. and he was between me and the door.  The other door was a balcony with a 3 story drop to the parking lot.  Major sucko.

white belt


(* Edited for content. Please just type and let the filter do what it is intended to do. Thank you. Rich Parsons Martial Talk Super Mod *)


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## arnisador (Mar 19, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?


 I view this scenario in two main ways. One is a bigger person trying to drag off a smaller person, as in an abduction. I recall seeing a surveillance video showing someone grabbing an arm like this and dragging a minor toward a van.

 The other is that I might start a backfist, say, and you might block and grab it, and we might end up in a high version of this position. I then view the standard sort of practice of getting into a lock from this position as a full range of motion technique whereas in practice it might only be a partial version of that. I find that this happens often enough to be worthwhile.

 In stick fighting, of course, grabbing the wrist of the opponent's stick hand happens more frequently, and we have to have ways to quickly deal with it in order to free up our weapon hand. The key is a quick response before the grip is truly "set on".


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## Matt Stone (Mar 19, 2005)

Understand that many of the "traditional" methods of training joint locks and throws are intended not as the actual application, but rather as a safe method by which to practice and understand the mechanics involved in the technique.

By doing certain techniques in certain ways, the biomechanical principles are illustrated in an easy to understand fashion.  Then, once you "understand" the technique, dissect it and begin finding ways to apply it outside the scope of the easy, safe training drill.  Add techniques to other techniques, finding ways that different locks and holds compliment and reinforce others.

Then go back to the original drill and you'll find just how illustrative it was.

Enjoy.


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## still learning (Mar 20, 2005)

Hello, I enjoy reading all the feed backs and most of you seems to agree this cross hand grabs do not happen much in fights?  But a few said they had experience these "grabs" before.  What does it mean now? 

 Should we continune to practice against this type of "grabs"?  What are your thoughts?


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## Matt Stone (Mar 20, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Should we continune to practice against this type of "grabs"?  What are your thoughts?



Did you read what I wrote upthread?  I'm not the sole authority by any means, but you need to fully grasp two things:

1) Always practice what you've been taught and try to find how it applies beyond what you've been taught.

2) You should practice against any and all attacks, be they strikes, grabs, pushes, kicks, trips, etc., in as many varied conditions, angles, and situations as you can.  To do any less is to ignore possibilities...


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## Dan G (Mar 20, 2005)

I was at a seminar a year or so ago where a trad karate practitioner was explaining kata applications. He pointed out that a lot of hidden moves in forms/kata were actually techniques againt wrist grabs and explained that the grab was the opponent's defence to a very direct and pragmatic throat, eye or testicle grab by the karate practitioner (omitted from the form as being too obvious a defence to need training).

I liked the explanation, a soft tissue strike as an intial reaction to a threat or opening in the guard, followed by a counter if the opponent grabs the wrist. Made more sense to me than waiting for an attacker to come up and hold one's hand, and also seems a good way of drawing an opponent into a position where a wrist lock can be applied...

Whatever the merits of the kata interpretation (I liked it) it made me view wrist grabs in a new light.

Respectfully,

Dan


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## white belt (Mar 20, 2005)

Dan G said:
			
		

> I was at a seminar a year or so ago where a trad karate practitioner was explaining kata applications. He pointed out that a lot of hidden moves in forms/kata were actually techniques againt wrist grabs and explained that the grab was the opponent's defence to a very direct and pragmatic throat, eye or testicle grab by the karate practitioner (omitted from the form as being too obvious a defence to need training).
> 
> I liked the explanation, a soft tissue strike as an intial reaction to a threat or opening in the guard, followed by a counter if the opponent grabs the wrist. Made more sense to me than waiting for an attacker to come up and hold one's hand, and also seems a good way of drawing an opponent into a position where a wrist lock can be applied...
> 
> ...


That's a good point!  A cross hand wrist grab happening as a response to a soft tissue grasp.  I have seen that happen.  I, and maybe a few others, tend to think of the cross hand wrist grab as the initial response, not the reflexive counter to the initial reponse.  I am a TKD practicioner and there are a LOT of wrist grab defenses in our patterns.  Again, good one!

white belt


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## still learning (Mar 20, 2005)

Hello, We do practice defense against hand grabs. We do defence against weapons using the hand /wrist grabs to armbars/disarm and so on. Lots of in close type of fighting, using everything we have. There is no limits in our training. 

 There is one technique we practice if an arm presents itself and we can grab the wrist(straight across or cross hands) to off balance them, pull towards you and kick at the same time at the knees/groin areas at the same time, follow up with more hits/strikes, then take down and continune the strikes/stomps. Off course there is different levels of attack and we must use our judgement on how much we need to finish the fight?

  Do cross hand grabs happen?  Off course they do at  times.  Practice for them....Aloha


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## arnisador (Mar 20, 2005)

That _is_ an interesting interpretation *Dan G*. Again, it reminds me of the FMA where we think of it as someone countering a stick strike by grabbing the wrist.


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## mj-hi-yah (Mar 20, 2005)

Dan G said:
			
		

> I was at a seminar a year or so ago where a trad karate practitioner was explaining kata applications. He pointed out that a lot of hidden moves in forms/kata were actually techniques againt wrist grabs and explained that the grab was the opponent's defence to a very direct and pragmatic throat, eye or testicle grab by the karate practitioner (omitted from the form as being too obvious a defence to need training).
> 
> I liked the explanation, a soft tissue strike as an intial reaction to a threat or opening in the guard, followed by a counter if the opponent grabs the wrist. Made more sense to me than waiting for an attacker to come up and hold one's hand, and also seems a good way of drawing an opponent into a position where a wrist lock can be applied...
> 
> ...


Good post Dan, this makes a lot of sense to me.

MJ :asian:


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## Loki (Mar 23, 2005)

In response to the original question, don't think so. I've never been in or witnessed a street fight, but it just doesn't seem practical. Maybe to grab a girl, as some people suggested, but this already makes knowledge for such cases a thing that should (and does) exist.

~ Loki


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## RRouuselot (Mar 23, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> That _is_ an interesting interpretation *Dan G*. Again, it reminds me of the FMA where we think of it as someone countering a stick strike by grabbing the wrist.


  or maybe someone grabbing your wrist after you tried to punch them.....


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## white belt (Mar 23, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> or maybe someone grabbing your wrist after you tried to punch them.....


Another good point.  Watching Pride, U.F.C., etc. for many years I have seen grabs to the arms when striking goes to the clinch.  When up against the fence or ropes it happens frequently.  Renzo Gracie tried to escape a STANDING armbar being performed by Sakuraba and had his shoulder dislocated for his efforts (Pride no.?).  That gripping pattern, though not frontal or cross, involves securing the wrist of someone attacking from the rear with a torso hug.  These arm and wrist locks are in Karate and TKD patterns.  Also, I did not see the fight but, didn't Royce Gracie recently submit and defeat a Sumo wrestler, on the ground, using a wristlock?

white belt


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 24, 2005)

white belt said:
			
		

> Another good point. Watching Pride, U.F.C., etc. for many years I have seen grabs to the arms when striking goes to the clinch. When up against the fence or ropes it happens frequently. Renzo Gracie tried to escape a STANDING armbar being performed by Sakuraba and had his shoulder dislocated for his efforts (Pride no.?). That gripping pattern, though not frontal or cross, involves securing the wrist of someone attacking from the rear with a torso hug. These arm and wrist locks are in Karate and TKD patterns. Also, I did not see the fight but, didn't Royce Gracie recently submit and defeat a Sumo wrestler, on the ground, using a wristlock?
> 
> white belt


The cross-hand grab being discussed in this thread is the scenario used in many a martial arts demonstration wherein someone walks up to another person, reaches out with their right hand and grabs the other person's right wrist. This situation rarely, if ever, actually happens in real life.
What you are describing is a clinch or grappling situation. In that case wristlocks, armlocks, leglocks and various other grabs and holds are the norm. 

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## white belt (Mar 24, 2005)

The book titled "75 down blocks", authored by Rick Clark, is very descriptive to frequency of grabs and types happening in daily law enforcement.  On pages 15-18 stats are given.  Weaponless assaults against law enforcement (Federal) between the years 1978-2000 total 82.72 % of all assaults.  73.29 % of those assaults were grabs NOT strikes.  Further broken down, the grabs in order of highest incidence first were : 1)-Wrist 2)-Forearm 3)-Upper arm 4)Lapel 5) Throat.  Can't be anymore plain than that.

Talking to people I know, that have been in scuffles in the past, they relate that in very close or confined quarters they have had to deal with clinch / grabs to their arms.  I experienced this myself.  These were non-law enforcement related.

Hope this helps,
white belt

P.S.
Ref: Federal stats. in Mr. Clark's book.  The cross hand wrist grab was second only to the same side wrist grab.  3RD was the double wrist grab.


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## arnisador (Mar 24, 2005)

Well, more often than I thought then. Of course, LEOs are a special case.


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 25, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Well, more often than I thought then. Of course, LEOs are a special case.


LEOs can answer this better than I can, but the guys I know who are on the job say that the majority of the time when their wrists are grabbed it's because their hand is on their weapon and the badguy is trying to take it, or stop them from drawing.

Vic www.combatartusa.com


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## arnisador (Mar 25, 2005)

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking--reaching for a sidearm or swinging a baton or rasing mace or something, or maybe even just while trying to cuff somebody (and so in close proximity to them).


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## Cruentus (Mar 25, 2005)

white belt said:
			
		

> The book titled "75 down blocks", authored by Rick Clark, is very descriptive to frequency of grabs and types happening in daily law enforcement.  On pages 15-18 stats are given.  Weaponless assaults against law enforcement (Federal) between the years 1978-2000 total 82.72 % of all assaults.  73.29 % of those assaults were grabs NOT strikes.  Further broken down, the grabs in order of highest incidence first were : 1)-Wrist 2)-Forearm 3)-Upper arm 4)Lapel 5) Throat.  Can't be anymore plain than that.
> 
> Talking to people I know, that have been in scuffles in the past, they relate that in very close or confined quarters they have had to deal with clinch / grabs to their arms.  I experienced this myself.  These were non-law enforcement related.
> 
> ...



Yea...but reagardless of stats and sources, clinches in a fight simply are not the old "grab my wrist..." stuff that happends in most MA classes. Wrist grabs happened, but the difference is in how they happened. The how can be a night and day difference from the training floor to the street, depending on where you train.

I think that is what people are saying here.


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## white belt (Mar 25, 2005)

Agreed.  Comfy confines, with a willing partner, wont prepare someone who is just going through the motions.  That is true with any self defense situation.  I'm seeing that point being hinted at repeatedly in this discussion.  If an Instructor is teaching students to just slap on a wristlock, after a grab, without any percussive technique to help set it up first, that is a huge mistake.  What makes a technique seem impractical, in some cases, is how it is taught, not just the frequency of such attacks.  Dropping to the ground in a guard position isn't my first choice when someone takes a swing at me but, it is still useful if tackled onto ones back.  I am familiar with enough examples that teaching a few good responses to wrist grabs is a good thing in the case of a messy clinch.  The wrist grab doesn't always happen at the first point of contact.  Neither does a tackle.  Both are good to know how to deal with.  They both can happen off a clinch.  Do I, teach and practice responses to wrist grabs as much as responses to being swung at?  No.  But, it is a good thing to know.  Just like the guard.

white belt


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## safeeagle (Mar 26, 2005)

My thought on this is no it doesn't happen much. Then again, most people who fight don't know how to fight. I believe. The wrist grab is a real skill in itself. Your blocking hand has to come with the punch to some respect. It's difficult.


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 27, 2005)

white belt said:
			
		

> Agreed. Comfy confines, with a willing partner, wont prepare someone who is just going through the motions. That is true with any self defense situation. I'm seeing that point being hinted at repeatedly in this discussion. If an Instructor is teaching students to just slap on a wristlock, after a grab, without any percussive technique to help set it up first, that is a huge mistake. What makes a technique seem impractical, in some cases, is how it is taught, not just the frequency of such attacks. Dropping to the ground in a guard position isn't my first choice when someone takes a swing at me but, it is still useful if tackled onto ones back. I am familiar with enough examples that teaching a few good responses to wrist grabs is a good thing in the case of a messy clinch. The wrist grab doesn't always happen at the first point of contact. Neither does a tackle. Both are good to know how to deal with. They both can happen off a clinch. Do I, teach and practice responses to wrist grabs as much as responses to being swung at? No. But, it is a good thing to know. Just like the guard.
> 
> white belt


Agreed. And that was basically the point we were trying to make. 
Thanks for the research by the way. I enjoyed that.

Vic www.combatartusa.com


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 27, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Yea...but reagardless of stats and sources, clinches in a fight simply are not the old "grab my wrist..." stuff that happends in most MA classes. Wrist grabs happened, but the difference is in how they happened. The how can be a night and day difference from the training floor to the street, depending on where you train.
> 
> I think that is what people are saying here.


Amen brother..."Grab my wrist" LOLOLOL


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