# How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?



## mastercole (Apr 13, 2012)

_How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are? 

Is there some kind of test of skills, in a non-prearranged format against other opposing Hapkidoin?

Thank you_


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 13, 2012)

mastercole said:


> _How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?
> 
> Is there some kind of test of skills, in a non-prearranged format against other opposing Hapkidoin?
> 
> Thank you_



Those that have used it extensively and successfully in real world altercations against violent, resisting attackers.  Going further, those that have met the above criteria and can also teach successfully the art from a real world perspective based upon that experience.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> _How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?
> 
> Is there some kind of test of skills, in a non-prearranged format against other opposing Hapkidoin?
> 
> Thank you_



I'm sort of curious sir.  You list Hapkido as one of the arts you have studied.  What level did you reach?  Did you never ask the above or other questions you have posted while you had a teacher?


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## mastercole (Apr 14, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I'm sort of curious sir.  You list Hapkido as one of the arts you have studied.  What level did you reach?  Did you never ask the above or other questions you have posted while you had a teacher?



I am not expert on Hapkido. Pick the lowest level of Hapkido practitioner and there I am. I don't teach Hapkido either.

I learned some similar stuff before I began Taekwondo, under the jujitsu name in Karate, and Hoshinsul name later in Oh Do Kwan/Moo Duk Kwan/Tang Soo Do.  My Sabumnim, GM CHONG Chun Sup added it in his Taekwondo classes from what he had learned in Pyongtaek, Korea. I began training with him after he had been in the USA for only 6 weeks, he did not speak English at the time, I never asked any of these questions because I studied it very little and had very little interest in Hapkido, but years later I played around with it "a little bit" with some of my own students, and through Taekwondo and my many trips to Korea, I have encountered Hapkido from time to time in Mexico, USA, Canada, Europe and even at the "Hanminjok Korea Kido Hae" - if I got the name right -  Headquarters in Seoul. I have also attended some day long, and even week long training events.

I think that firmly plants me in the novice category, that is why I ask these questions.  But I might decide to take up the study of Hapkido, and if I do, I will find the best possible source and go study with them, or, bring them to the USA where they can stay at my home and study with them everyday, and invite my students to do the same. I've been known to do that kind of thing before.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> _How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are? _



One test is what happens when a person walks into a room filled with hapkido practitioners of any organization or affiliation. If everyone in the room immediately stands up and bows deeply, including those whose students who enjoy making public criticism of this person, then you have your answer.


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## mastercole (Apr 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> One test is what happens when a person walks into a room filled with hapkido practitioners of any organization or affiliation. If everyone in the room immediately stands up and bows deeply, including those whose students who enjoy making public criticism of this person, then you have your answer.



Imagine that. Disrespectful juniors making a hypocritical action.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I am not expert on Hapkido. Pick the lowest level of Hapkido practitioner and there I am. I don't teach Hapkido either.
> 
> I learned some similar stuff before I began Taekwondo, under the jujitsu name in Karate, and Hoshinsul name later in Oh Do Kwan/Moo Duk Kwan/Tang Soo Do.  My Sabumnim, GM CHONG Chun Sup added it in his Taekwondo classes from what he had learned in Pyongtaek, Korea. I began training with him after he had been in the USA for only 6 weeks, he did not speak English at the time, I never asked any of these questions because I studied it very little and had very little interest in Hapkido, but years later I played around with it "a little bit" with some of my own students, and through Taekwondo and my many trips to Korea, I have encountered Hapkido from time to time in Mexico, USA, Canada, Europe and even at the "Hanminjok Korea Kido Hae" - if I got the name right -  Headquarters in Seoul. I have also attended some day long, and even week long training events.
> 
> I think that firmly plants me in the novice category, that is why I ask these questions.  But I might decide to take up the study of Hapkido, and if I do, I will find the best possible source and go study with them, or, bring them to the USA where they can stay at my home and study with them everyday, and invite my students to do the same. I've been known to do that kind of thing before.



I guess so.  But I am curious about your insistence on "the best" hapkido teacher in the world.  I think I had the best when I studied Hapkido in the 80s in Korea, and later here in the USA.  My Grand Master was a good practitioner and a good teacher.  I would be very surprised if Puunui wouldn't tell you the same, or any other of the other Hapkido students here on MT.  The point being we all would have been foolish to have continued studying under a teacher we didn't think was good enough to teach us.  I understand you desire to have a good teacher, but do you want the best in all the world,  the best as described by someone else, or the best for you?


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## mastercole (Apr 15, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I guess so.  But I am curious about your insistence on "the best" hapkido teacher in the world.  I think I had the best when I studied Hapkido in the 80s in Korea, and later here in the USA.  My Grand Master was a good practitioner and a good teacher.  I would be very surprised if Puunui wouldn't tell you the same, or any other of the other Hapkido students here on MT.  The point being we all would have been foolish to have continued studying under a teacher we didn't think was good enough to teach us.  I understand you desire to have a good teacher, but do you want the best in all the world,  the best as described by someone else, or the best for you?



Well I am certainly not on the Hapkido board to get my own opinion   I'm interested in what experienced Hapkido practitioners have to say.


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## jks9199 (Apr 15, 2012)

So, you want to train with the best hapkido instructor in the world.  OK; are you willing to relocate to wherever that person may be?  Drop everything, leaving behind family, friends, and business to go there and train?  If not -- then you don't want "the best in the world."  You want the "best that you can get to under whatever terms you set."  Might be helpful to set those terms, first.  It's already been said that there are at least a couple styles of hapkido; I know there's Combat Hapkido and "everything else."  But I think "everything else" has some better definition and sorting than that...  Which are you looking for?


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## mastercole (Apr 15, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> So, you want to train with the best hapkido instructor in the world.  OK; are you willing to relocate to wherever that person may be?  Drop everything, leaving behind family, friends, and business to go there and train?  If not -- then you don't want "the best in the world."  You want the "best that you can get to under whatever terms you set."  Might be helpful to set those terms, first.  It's already been said that there are at least a couple styles of hapkido; I know there's Combat Hapkido and "everything else."  But I think "everything else" has some better definition and sorting than that...  Which are you looking for?



Why would I have to drop everything? I don't have restrictions, I don't have to ask permission, I don't have to set terms, I simple got after what I want and I have always got what I want, plus more. My full time career has been martial arts since 1992, it is my job. I have dojangs that do not require me to even be there, at anytime, for any reason. I can fly off to anywhere in the world I decide, at any time for however long I decide. 

Years ago I got interested in Taekkyon, so I went back and forth to Korea to train and brought the world's top level Taekkyon teacher along with the National Taekkyon Demo Team to the USA to introduce Taekkyon to my students, then brought his top master back to the USA to live at my home and teach me and my students, he has been living here now for the past 10 years and is sitting in my living room watching a movie with my sons right now. I've done similar things like that for Taekwondo. I would approach Hapkido not differently. 

That is why I search for opinions on the Hapkido board.  Are you a Hapkido practitioner?  If so, what is your opinion?  If not, oh well.


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## jks9199 (Apr 15, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Why would I have to drop everything? I don't have restrictions, I don't have to ask permission, I don't have to set terms, I simple got after what I want and I have always got what I want, plus more. My full time career has been martial arts since 1992, it is my job. I have dojangs that do not require me to even be there, at anytime, for any reason. I can fly off to anywhere in the world I decide, at any time for however long I decide.



Fantastic. Many of us don't have that freedom. I have a job, I have family, I have other obligations.  I have enough trouble scheduling weekend seminars and clinics...  But nobody knows that until you tell them -- and for most of us, it would be a serious set of limitations.


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## mastercole (Apr 15, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Fantastic. Many of us don't have that freedom. I have a job, I have family, I have other obligations.  I have enough trouble scheduling weekend seminars and clinics...  But nobody knows that until you tell them -- and for most of us, it would be a serious set of limitations.



It is fantastic. I read a quote on time that I took to heart, like some other quotes. When something like this: "If you don't learn to write your own life story, someone else will write it for you"


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## mastercole (Apr 15, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Fantastic. Many of us don't have that freedom. I have a job, I have family, I have other obligations.  I have enough trouble scheduling weekend seminars and clinics...  But nobody knows that until you tell them -- and for most of us, it would be a serious set of limitations.



I forgot to ask again, since I assume you have Hapkido experience, how do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?  Thanks.


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## shesulsa (Apr 16, 2012)

mastercole said:


> _How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?
> 
> Is there some kind of test of skills, in a non-prearranged format against other opposing Hapkidoin?
> 
> Thank you_



How do you know who the best boxer is? What if there are better boxers than the celebrated ring fighters? What if there are basketball players who will never get recruited because they are too remote or lack exposure.

The question is really rather ... silly unless you're asking about competitions .... is that what you're asking about? Skill combat?  Hapkido matches?


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## mastercole (Apr 16, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> How do you know who the best boxer is?



Because they have what it takes to step in the ring and prove it. We can name them all by weight class. I assume you have heard that boxers actually fight each other and win world titles?



shesulsa said:


> What if there are better boxers than the celebrated ring fighters?



They would have to be fighting the best, and eventually defeating them to become the best, we would know all about it.  I am not sure what you are thinking here but there are no secret closet boxers who never stepped in a ring who could step up and take out the Champ   If you really think such people exist, I'd really like to hear about it.



shesulsa said:


> What if there are basketball players who will never get recruited because they are too remote or lack exposure.



Basketball?



shesulsa said:


> The question is really rather ... silly unless you're asking about competitions .... is that what you're asking about? Skill combat?  Hapkido matches?



My question is silly?      What I am asking is, how do we know, be it combat, biting matches, sword fights, who has the fast wrist twist, whatever, I am asking Hapkido people to tell me.  If you a Hapkido person why not answer the question instead of coming up with "what ifs" ?


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## mastercole (Apr 16, 2012)

A quick Google, and here is a Hapkido competition in Iowa http://www.blackeaglemartialarts.us/hapkido-iowa-games-2011/ and a video of Hapkido competitions and from a World authority at that.


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## shesulsa (Apr 16, 2012)

The style I train in is highly influenced by Hapkido. And you seem to have answered your own question.


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## mastercole (Apr 16, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> The style I train in is highly influenced by Hapkido. And you seem to have answered your own question.



Well that is good to know, do you have anything to share other just argument?  And Hapkido competition videos found on Google do not answer my question, as my question was not specific to competitions.


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## shesulsa (Apr 17, 2012)

So ... you're wanting to know what, exactly?? I'm confused. You seem to know about competitions and some basic elements of Hapkido but you want to know ... what? what people's opinions on what makes a hapkidoan great?? Are you trying to ask if an approach, knowledge ... what specific talent or application makes a hapkidoan superior?


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> So ... you're wanting to know what, exactly?? I'm confused. You seem to know about competitions and some basic elements of Hapkido but you want to know ... what? what people's opinions on what makes a hapkidoan great?? Are you trying to ask if an approach, knowledge ... what specific talent or application makes a hapkidoan superior?



If my question is to confusing, it might be best to skip it. 

I do think it is a very simple question: *How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?  You could answer my question with any of those what if's you listed, go for it.*


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## shesulsa (Apr 17, 2012)

A handful of years ago, the Hapkido section here essentially imploded with arguments over what real Hapkido is, its origins and who trained with what master.

Frankly, the question over who is the best hapkido master in the world for you can only be answered _*by*_ you.  My advice for a high-ranking martial artist with multiple dojangs at his fingertips and no restrictions to travel and investigate would be exactly the same for the mignon who has not a penny but needs self-defense training:  go out and find what speaks to you.

Perhaps if you could narrow it down to a lineage you prefer, then you can follow the chain of command on upward and go from there.

I invite you to peruse the much, much older threads in this forum to research hapkido origins and the controversies perceived as a result.

Peace.


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2012)

It seems as if you almost have either someone or some criteria in mind. So I'll ask you: how do YOU know who the best in hapkido are?

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## Dirty Dog (Apr 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> If my question is to confusing, it might be best to skip it.
> 
> I do think it is a very simple question: *How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are? You could answer my question with any of those what if's you listed, go for it.*



Seems to me that you already have an answer in your head, and you're looking for someone to parrot it back to you. Either that, or you're just trying to stir up some arguement.

So tell us, how do YOU know who the best hapkidoin are?

For me, there is no answer. "Best" is ambiguous. Best in what way? Hapkido is a multifaceted art and I doubt that any single person can be considered "best" in all aspects.


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> A handful of years ago, the Hapkido section here essentially imploded with arguments over what real Hapkido is, its origins and who trained with what master.



I see, but that was not my question.



shesulsa said:


> Frankly, the question over who is the best hapkido master in the world for you can only be answered _*by*_ you.



I think it is best answered by those in the Hapkido world. Rather than just make a summary decision based on little knowledge, I figure it best to ask some advise. Most of the advise will likely be useless, but sometimes one make come across advise that is very helpful. 




shesulsa said:


> My advice for a high-ranking martial artist with multiple dojangs at his fingertips and no restrictions to travel and investigate would be exactly the same for the mignon who has not a penny but needs self-defense training:  go out and find what speaks to you.



I don't need self defense training, if I did, Hapkido and other martial arts would be the last think on my mind. What I wanted was folks advise on "How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?"  But I can see here that you are telling me to just find what speaks to me, so there I have it, your advise, thanks.



shesulsa said:


> Perhaps if you could narrow it down to a lineage you prefer, then you can follow the chain of command on upward and go from there.



Getting as close to the source of Hapkido as possible. 



shesulsa said:


> I invite you to peruse the much, much older threads in this forum to research hapkido origins and the controversies perceived as a result.
> 
> Peace.



Good advise.


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> It seems as if you almost have either someone or some criteria in mind.



I have no someone in mind. If you are a Hapkido practitioner, I'd like to know your opinion in regard to my Hapkido question. You train in Hapkido?   My criteria is this: Ask experienced Hapkidoin "How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?", see what kind of information pops up. Do you have an opinion on this subject?



jks9199 said:


> So I'll ask you: how do YOU know who the best in hapkido are?



My question was not who is the best in Hapkido are.  This is what I asked:  "How - do - we - know - who - the - best - Hapkidoin - are?"

In other words, is there some kind of way to know, like a criteria or method or something I am not thinking of that would identify who the best Hapkidoin are.

So far I am getting comments that it's just whatever I think. Odd advise for a martial art.

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Seems to me that you already have an answer in your head, and you're looking for someone to parrot it back to you. Either that, or you're just trying to stir up some arguement.



Typical argumentative non-answer from you.



Dirty Dog said:


> So tell us, how do YOU know who the best hapkidoin are?



I don't, that is why I ask people in the Hapkido world who they know. Are you a Hapkidoin, or is that something else you can not answer?



Dirty Dog said:


> For me, there is no answer. "Best" is ambiguous. Best in what way? Hapkido is a multifaceted art and I doubt that any single person can be considered "best" in all aspects.



I never asked who the best single Hapkido person was.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 17, 2012)

I think we can do without the attitudes. If anyone has to ask 'what attitudes', check yours. Savvy? Good.



"Best" is subjective.  
Define "Best".   Best fighter, best technician, best teacher, best competitor, best looking, and so forth.

Best fighter/competitor is simple. Means he wins fights. Also might mean he takes little damage while fighting.

Best technician to me means he has the techniques down cold, always demonstrates them with a sharp and consistent look.

Best teacher might mean he has a lot of students, but that might mean he's the best at marketing, not necessarily teaching.
It also might mean he's produced a lot of black belts. But that might also mean he promotes anyone who's check clears.
To me, it means he can clearly explain and demonstrate techniques, guide new students, has patience, represents all of the things I believe are the virtues of importance, and has produced quality senior students who demonstrate a personal and technical level of advancement.

Best looking is simple. That's me. 

Define what you mean by 'the best'. That will give you the benchmarks to weigh others by.

Define "Hapkido".  Define 'Hapkidoin" 
The 'best' are those people who fit that definition closest. 
To you.

Others definitions may vary, resulting in different 'best'.

I submit, there is no true 'best', just 'best to me'.
:asian:


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> "Best" is subjective.
> Define "Best".   Best fighter, best technician, best teacher, best competitor, best looking, and so forth.
> 
> Best fighter/competitor is simple. Means he wins fights. Also might mean he takes little damage while fighting.
> ...



Thats what I would like to read, how Hapkidoin determine who the best in their field of practice is, be it marketing, fighting, or back flips. I don't want to define it for them, I want them to tell me. And I am sure everyone will have a different way of going about determining who the best Hapkidoin are.

Definition of Hapkido:  Korean martial arts called Hapkido.
Definition of Hapkidoin: simply; Hapkido People


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## zDom (Apr 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Thats what I would like to read, how Hapkidoin determine who the best in their field of practice is, be it marketing, fighting, or back flips. I don't want to define it for them, I want them to tell me. And I am sure everyone will have a different way of going about determining who the best Hapkidoin are.



Videos can give a general idea, but really for me, I'd have to spend some time with them on the mat, feel their technique, to really form an opinion of who is "better."

And, as pointed out above, it would probably be specific to certain parts, as in "Master A is an great thrower" or "Master B has some incredible kicks."

Marketing and self promotion mean nothing me to. Rank I always take with a grain of salt.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I am not expert on Hapkido. Pick the lowest level of Hapkido practitioner and there I am. I don't teach Hapkido either.
> 
> I learned some similar stuff before I began Taekwondo, under the jujitsu name in Karate, and Hoshinsul name later in Oh Do Kwan/Moo Duk Kwan/Tang Soo Do. My Sabumnim, GM CHONG Chun Sup added it in his Taekwondo classes from what he had learned in Pyongtaek, Korea. I began training with him after he had been in the USA for only 6 weeks, he did not speak English at the time, I never asked any of these questions because I studied it very little and had very little interest in Hapkido, but years later I played around with it "a little bit" with some of my own students, and through Taekwondo and my many trips to Korea, I have encountered Hapkido from time to time in Mexico, USA, Canada, Europe and even at the "Hanminjok Korea Kido Hae" - if I got the name right - Headquarters in Seoul. I have also attended some day long, and even week long training events.
> 
> I think that firmly plants me in the novice category, that is why I ask these questions. But I might decide to take up the study of Hapkido, and if I do, I will find the best possible source and go study with them, or, bring them to the USA where they can stay at my home and study with them everyday, and invite my students to do the same. I've been known to do that kind of thing before.



First, thanks for clarfying. I have been holding off on answering, watching where the thread went. Frankly, I also rather thought you were trying to set up some kind of controversy.

Second, I am no expert on Hapkido. Never have been. However, I have studied and taught Hapkido. I expect you know that there are many different Hapkido organizations, and kwans. To my knowledge, most Hapkido kwans do not have competitions, although some do. When we sparred in the Hapkido I studied, it was usually after a local testing. We then sparred very much like in the old TKD. That is, it was mostly kicks and punches, contact only in blocking.

To do otherwise in Hapkido is dangerous. I know there are some styles that spar. There have to be rules to do that. We are taught techniques that very often do damage to our opponent. Therefore there would have to be strick rules so that opponents would not maim or kill each other. I remember seeing a demonstration of different Korea MA in 1975 or 1976. 

One was Hapkido. I wasn't a student then, and honestly, suspected it might be all a put on. When they demonstrated techniques, they were pretty often causing great pain or knocking the wind out ot their opponents, or stunning them to the point near or at unconscienciousness. Those were very adept practioners.

All that to say, how indeed do you intend to pick the best? Since there isn't a consensus within Hapkido (that I know of) as to a proper method of picking some one greatest student or teacher, I think anyone from the outside trying to do so has a real challenge. 

My best advice would be to question as many Grand Masters as you can, in Korea and out of Korea, and solicit their opinions as to who the best teacher was, since you would certainly want a teacher, rather than simply a practioner who was successful at being recognized as a good practioner. You could probably do well picking a person that got the most recommendations from those you asked, especially if they are not only identifying people from their own kwan or organization.

Good luck in your quest sir.


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I have no someone in mind. If you are a Hapkido practitioner, I'd like to know your opinion in regard to my Hapkido question. You train in Hapkido?   My criteria is this: Ask experienced Hapkidoin "How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?", see what kind of information pops up. Do you have an opinion on this subject?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps, or perhaps it's an odd question for such an experienced martial artist to ask.  I've never trained in Hapkido; in fact, I've never claimed to have done so, and I've never made a secret of that.  My style is in my profile. But I do know a few folks in Combat Hapkido, a couple in other forms of Hapkido.  Not enough for me to say who's the best in such a diverse art.  In fact, I think it would be almost impossible to get a good answer.  Some might say Grand Master Pelligrino of Combat Hapkido is the best.  Others would apparently say Grand Master Ji is the best.

It's kind of like asking who the "best" in karate or kempo or even Bando is...  There is really no one answer.  I can name some very good, very skilled people in a couple of karate styles; some known, some more unknown.  Kempo?  even more muddled, huh?   Bando?  Smaller group, but there's at least 2 and a half major organizations, not counting folks that have spun off on their own.  That's without even looking at our sub-systems there...

So, again, what are the criteria people should use?  What's the goal you're after in asking this?  If you're looking for best performers, you might be looking for the most dynamic people, who can do the widest range of techniques, and make the hardest stuff look easy.  If you're after the best teachers -- then you really need to look at their students, and decide what elements show that they've learned best.  (It's kind of like the old saw about which barber to go to in a town with only two barbers; you do to the guy with the bad haircut.)  If you're after the guys who can use it most effectively in the real world, then you need to go and look for people who have actually used it for real.  The groups may well, in fact, almost certainly are not going to be identical.  There may not even be much intersection...


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## puunui (Apr 17, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> So, you want to train with the best hapkido instructor in the world.  OK; are you willing to relocate to wherever that person may be?  Drop everything, leaving behind family, friends, and business to go there and train?



You just described me because that is exactly what I did.


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Perhaps, or perhaps it's an odd question for such an experienced martial artist to ask.



But not an odd question for such a Hapkido novice as myself to ask.  What is so odd about the question I asked, novice, or not?



jks9199 said:


> I've never trained in Hapkido; in fact, I've never claimed to have done so, and I've never made a secret of that.  My style is in my profile.



I see, well thank you for trying to help out. So far you have offered more information than some who have actual Hapkido experience. 



jks9199 said:


> But I do know a few folks in Combat Hapkido, a couple in other forms of Hapkido.  Not enough for me to say who's the best in such a diverse art.  In fact, I think it would be almost impossible to get a good answer.  Some might say Grand Master Pelligrino of Combat Hapkido is the best.  Others would apparently say Grand Master Ji is the best.



I never asked who the best was.



jks9199 said:


> It's kind of like asking who the "best" in karate or kempo or even Bando is...  There is really no one answer.  I can name some very good, very skilled people in a couple of karate styles; some known, some more unknown.  Kempo?  even more muddled, huh?   Bando?  Smaller group, but there's at least 2 and a half major organizations, not counting folks that have spun off on their own.  That's without even looking at our sub-systems there...



Again, not the question I asked. But, actually we can know who the best are in Karate and possible Bando.  Kenpo probably in the same boat with Hapkido.



jks9199 said:


> So, again, what are the criteria people should use?



I want people in the Hapkido world to suggest this. I, as a novice don't know enough about the Hapkido world to choice a criteria. Hence my original question "How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?"

Note the question starts off with "How", I'm not asking who 



jks9199 said:


> What's the goal you're after in asking this?



To find out >>>How<<< do we know who the best Hapkidoin are.  



jks9199 said:


> If you're looking for best performers, you might be looking for the most dynamic people, who can do the widest range of techniques, and make the hardest stuff look easy.  If you're after the best teachers -- then you really need to look at their students, and decide what elements show that they've learned best.  (It's kind of like the old saw about which barber to go to in a town with only two barbers; you do to the guy with the bad haircut.)  If you're after the guys who can use it most effectively in the real world, then you need to go and look for people who have actually used it for real.  The groups may well, in fact, almost certainly are not going to be identical.  There may not even be much intersection...



I'm not looking for any of that in specific. I am looking for Hapkidoin (Hapkido People) advise on what I should be looking for.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 17, 2012)

So, you're not looking for the name of a particular person, but the attributes to look for that would allow you to better decide for yourself who is good and who is not.

??


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## puunui (Apr 17, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, you're not looking for the name of a particular person, but the attributes to look for that would allow you to better decide for yourself who is good and who is not. ??



That was my understanding from the original post:



mastercole said:


> _How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?
> 
> Is there some kind of test of skills, in a non-prearranged format against other opposing Hapkidoin?
> 
> Thank you_


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, you're not looking for the name of a particular person, but the attributes to look for that would allow you to better decide for yourself who is good and who is not.
> 
> ??



Yes, but for Hapkidoin (Hapkido People) in general. No one specific person. What attributes do Hapkidoin consider essential to determining who the best Hapkido people are (again, not one person)


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## MJS (Apr 17, 2012)

And yet another thread that was started under the disguise of going after a particular member.  IIRC, that is against forum rules.  Let me be blunt.  We have enough open reported tickets right now, to last 2 weeks.  I highly suggest that certain people stop with the rule violations, before threads get locked and members get banned.  I see alot of off topic posts in this thread, that I'm going to be removing.  If you have an ax to grind, do not do it here.

Consider this the 1 and only warning!

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

MJS said:


> And yet another thread that was started under the disguise of going after a particular member.  IIRC, that is against forum rules.  Let me be blunt.  We have enough open reported tickets right now, to last 2 weeks.  I highly suggest that certain people stop with the rule violations, before threads get locked and members get banned.  I see alot of off topic posts in this thread, that I'm going to be removing.  If you have an ax to grind, do not do it here.
> 
> Consider this the 1 and only warning!
> 
> ...



I respect what you are saying, but I ask you to reconsider by reading all the post.  I started the thread and it is sincere, and the discussions have been sincere. I have not went after any member. Please read carefully through the thread.

Thank you


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## shesulsa (Apr 18, 2012)

Effective techniques, ability to adapt them to size and strength differentials as well as injury/handicap. Full grasp of nuances that can make or break locks & techniques, ability to obscure telegraphing and to determine another person's learning style/curve and effectively communicate and teach a broad number of people - including masters of other styles.

How's that?


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## mastercole (Apr 18, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Effective techniques, ability to adapt them to size and strength differentials as well as injury/handicap. Full grasp of nuances that can make or break locks & techniques, ability to obscure telegraphing and to determine another person's learning style/curve and effectively communicate and teach a broad number of people - including masters of other styles.
> 
> How's that?



Very good.  You are the first to say "effective techniques".  Now that you mention it, that would have to be proved to me in order for me to have confidence in what the instructor was teaching.  Example, when I first met my Sabumnim and several elite Taekwondo athletes, I was permitted to fight them full contact, they did not hesitate to say OK.  I could do anything I wanted, nothing was prearranged and it was an enlightening experience. 

I also like your comments that they should basically be adaptable to different learning needs.


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## zDom (Apr 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> ... I was permitted to fight them full contact, they did not hesitate to say OK.  I could do anything I wanted, nothing was prearranged and it was an enlightening experience.




And how would this work with hapkido?

Surely we don't want to return to "challenge matches" where a prospective student goes from dojang to dojang engaging the master instructor in dire combat to test his effectiveness, do we?

 I mean, it DOES work great for TKD. When I put on the mitts with my TKD instructor, I quickly came to an understanding that what he had was worth learning.


But then, I'm not sure I would have wanted to go at my HKD instructor with "anything I wanted, nothing ... prearranged" -- for my own safety. 

From prearranged formal technique I think I rightly assessed his techniques' effectiveness.

And I'm pretty sure even then, and without doubt now, even in complying to prearranged technique, I would be able to tell an effective technique from an ineffective technique.

But then, it seem very many are not able to tell.


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## mastercole (Apr 19, 2012)

zDom said:


> And how would this work with hapkido?
> 
> Surely we don't want to return to "challenge matches" where a prospective student goes from dojang to dojang engaging the master instructor in dire combat to test his effectiveness, do we?
> 
> ...



I was not suggesting that it would work for Hapkido.


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## zDom (Apr 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I was not suggesting that it would work for Hapkido.



No no &#8212; I didn't think you were and I didn't mean to imply that you did. i Was just posing the questions myself for discussion and thinking out loud in text.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

zDom said:


> Surely we don't want to return to "challenge matches" where a prospective student goes from dojang to dojang engaging the master instructor in dire combat to test his effectiveness, do we?



I had a student like that, a half korean half american guy who got his Hapkido 1st dan in korea under the Saemaul Hapkido Central Headquarters before moving here. He went to every hapkido dojang on the island and basically challenged every instructor, and leaving in disgust. He tried to do that with me, and ended up staying with me for a very long time. This was early on when I first came back and my early students all  looked up to him as their big senior, which made him happy. He was also into muay thai, so we gave him our special kicks to the leg and he really went off on those which became his specialty. He got up to 3rd Dan under me, before he got a job on an alaskan king crab boat. His korean mother is very nice and I used to take stuff to her tailor shop to have things altered until she finally retired. His mother liked me a lot because she felt that I was the only one who could "control" her son, which was funny because I basically let him do whatever he wanted.


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## milewski (May 16, 2012)

After reviewing the thread and the answers from the person that started it, he as an experienced martial artist should be able to answer his own question.  The best Hapkidoist is the one that he decides can teach him the best, just like TKD, Jujitsu, karate, judo, or any other MA.


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## American HKD (May 20, 2012)

Greetings,

There is no best, but some people are considered the best in their system.

GM Ji Han Jae is considered the best in his lineage or style, he has taught many people who are influential in spreading Hapkido and many seek his ranking believing it is from one of the best sources. 

Myung Jae Nam is also considered the best in the style he developed that he blended with Aikido.

Etc...

Another question is who are the best practitioners in any given style, that is really not answerable either. Some people are better at hand skills, some kicking, etc...  

All anyone can do is work to be the best you can be based on your own personal goals. That is what martial arts teaches, be the best you can be.


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## rickster (May 20, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I understand you desire to have a good teacher, but do you want the best in all the world,  the best as described by someone else, or the best for you?


I agree. Saying something is the "best", is subjected to preference


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## rickster (May 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Why would I have to drop everything? I don't have restrictions, I don't have to ask permission, I don't have to set terms, I simple got after what I want and I have always got what I want, plus more. My full time career has been martial arts since 1992, it is my job. I have dojangs that do not require me to even be there, at anytime, for any reason. I can fly off to anywhere in the world I decide, at any time for however long I decide.
> 
> Years ago I got interested in Taekkyon, so I went back and forth to Korea to train and brought the world's top level Taekkyon teacher along with the National Taekkyon Demo Team to the USA to introduce Taekkyon to my students, then brought his top master back to the USA to live at my home and teach me and my students, he has been living here now for the past 10 years and is sitting in my living room watching a movie with my sons right now. I've done similar things like that for Taekwondo. I would approach Hapkido not differently.
> 
> That is why I search for opinions on the Hapkido board.  Are you a Hapkido practitioner?  If so, what is your opinion?  If not, oh well.


If you can do all of these things, why waste so much time and so many posts here?

Get on a jet and go to Korea, seek out the heads of Hapkido orgs.

Then you can bring one of their top masters to the USA and have them sit in the living next to the top TKD in your living room, and you all can watch a movie together

This is a reflecton^^^ upon a post that I think could have not been in the thread.

That said, I would think a person interested in a specific martial art should seek out a specific forum and its members from that particular org.

In other words, I would check out and research Hapkido webs and orgs rather a general martial art forum of many styles.

To reiterate, if I had "unlimited" time and resources to dispose, I would not be here posting.

Although, I do have some time in-between a job, family, practice, and teaching to post here.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> _How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?
> 
> Is there some kind of test of skills, in a non-prearranged format against other opposing Hapkidoin?
> 
> Thank you_


I'd like to preface my answer by saying that I know that Master Cole is not actively posting at the present time and may or may not see continued responses to his thread.

Also, I don't consider myself to be an Hapkido expert by any measure.

Having said that...

Firstly, there is nothing resembling a global hapkido champion.  The art simply is not set up that way.  Some federations have competitions, but I am not aware of them being structured the way that taekwondo is, with a competition season that culminates in local, state, regional, national, and international championships.

I suspect that at the highest levels, people know who is whom and those who are the best are known to those who are connected enough to track such things.

Secondly, 'best' could also mean preeminence in the field.  GM Ji, for example, is preeminent in the field, but would not actively compete at his age.

One of the things about 'best' is that one may be 'best' in terms of knowledge, ability to transmit knowledge, and ability to apply their skills in a broad range of scenarios, but they may not have the physical capacity due to age to excel in competition.  

Conversely, many of the things that make one a prime competitor are dependent upon youth, when one usually is not at their peak with regards to knowledge, ability to transmit knowledge, and ability to apply their skills in a broad range of scenarios.

Top competitors tend to train for competition, which narrows their focus.  Competition training requires a level of intensity that usually preclude people of middle age or old age from competing at the top levels.  The best of both worlds would be the champion who continues to develop and grow past their competition years and who then further enriches the art.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 21, 2012)

Not speaking for Al Cole, but I don't believe he was necessarily asking from the perspective of competition based upon comments he made in one of the very similar threads he began, though competition may have been part of it;



			
				mastercole said:
			
		

> Who in the Hapkido world, a top level teacher type, is known to have  extensive experience in real world civilian self defense / street  combat, whatever the correct name is, and has the reputation of teaching  those real world experiences to their students who are also known to  have went on to use those skills in real world civilian self defense.



Only one person responding met this criteria.


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## musashi036 (May 25, 2012)

I agree with Mr. Sullivan.  That was very well put.  The video clip that was posted of the Pro Hapkido Tournament on page 2 was actually won by one of the black belts in my association and another former student of mine was also featured in the video.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 25, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Not speaking for Al Cole, but I don't believe he was necessarily asking from the perspective of competition based upon comments he made in one of the very similar threads he began, though competition may have been part of it;
> 
> 
> Mastercole said:
> ...



If you're talking about this thread, plenty of people have met the criteria of the OP.  The questions posed in the OP and in what you quoted are entirely different: one is asking who in the hapkido world have also gone on to use those skills in real world civilian self defense while the other is asking what method is used to determine the the most skilled practitioner:



Mastercole said:


> _How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?
> 
> Is there some kind of test of skills, in a non-prearranged format against other opposing Hapkidoin?
> 
> Thank you_



In your quote, Mastercole is asking about *who* in the hapkido world have gone on to apply their art in some fashion, presumably in some kind of professional capacity, in civilian self defense.  Which is an interesting question; GM Peligrinni might be a possible answer, assuming that he meets the other criteria mentioned in the quote and whether or not one considers him to be 'hapkido.'  The other factor is what is meant by "went on to use those skills in real world civilian self defense."  It could refer generally to having defended themselves in the real civilian world or it could mean working in a profession that is centered around real world civilian self defense.

In this thread, Mastercole is asking about a process.

The answer to this this question, "How do you know who is the best hapkidoin?" is that there is no process; hapkido is not organized in a way that would allow for that.  Not at this point in time anyway. 

Also, as has been stated, best is a relative term.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 25, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you're talking about this thread...



I'm tying in the overall theme of the several threads he began on essentially the same topic.  The trend of this thread was towards competition as an indicator of 'best'.  Such as your quote;



> Firstly, there is nothing resembling a global hapkido champion.  The art  simply is not set up that way.  Some federations have competitions, but  I am not aware of them being structured the way that taekwondo is, with  a competition season that culminates in local, state, regional,  national, and international championships.



Since competition isn't the best indicator of 'best', and since he had listed criteria as to what he was generally looking for in Hapkido instruction I listed his criteria.  I don't remember anyone else, meeting his listed criteria offering to instruct him other than just one.  But it does indicate, at least from his perspective, of what he considered to at least be a part of the equation into what is 'best'.  And I don't often agree with Al, but in this instance I have to give credit where it is due...it was a good list of criteria.  Certainly better than from a competition perspective, if there was a 'global' competition from which to draw criteria.  As you mention, there really isn't.  So this falls back upon his listed criteria as part of the overall equation within these many threads.


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