# Parenting Question



## bushidomartialarts (May 22, 2007)

Hey all.  My wife and I are starting to have questions occur to us what with the new son and all.

One thing we've decided is to allow alcohol at the dinner table starting well before 21.  We figure it should, ultimately, develop kids with more responsible attitudes about alcohol once they get access in high school and college.

What I haven't been able to find is any good research on ages and amounts.  I figure there's an age range before which alcohol can harm development, but after which it's like an adult drinking.  I figure there's also some info somewhere on how much is too much...a shot glass of watered down wine or beer for an 11 year old, but your own damn bottle of Fat Tire at 16?  

Most of my research has found only propaganda:  "Thou shalt not drink before 21, and this is why" nonsense.  I found one study that showed how countries with early drinking have more alcoholism, but far fewer alcohol abuse related deaths at college.   But that's about it.

Any leads, thoughts, info out there?


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## Bigshadow (May 22, 2007)

I don't have any info, but I suspect that wine at the table in some other parts of the world is not uncommon.  I don't think that the age of 21 means anything other than it IS the law.  Just my opinions.  I am interested to see how this thread turns out.


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## Lisa (May 22, 2007)

Jason,

I can't give you any statistics, I can only offer you my own personal experiences.

I have allowed my oldest daughter, and soon her younger sister will be allowed to also, have a drink during an occasion.  We don't usually drink much in our home, often being without any kind of alcohol available for months at a time.  However, if say, we are at my husband's parent's place and all the sibling and their children are together, my oldest does participate and have a drink with us.  My youngest will as well.

What I am trying to teach my children is that having a responsible drink is no big deal.  I am trying to take the mystery out of alcohol in hopes that they will take their experiences with them and remember them when I am not around and they are out with their friends.  I can't control what they do when I am not around, I can only control what I teach them and hope that mom's voice rings in their ears when they are faced with decisions.

So, far it seems to be working.  A couple of weeks ago one of my daughters was faced with a friend going off and getting drunk.  She chose not too and called me very upset.  I gotta tell ya, I was damn proud of her decision.


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## Flying Crane (May 22, 2007)

Glad to see a reasonable approach, and reasonable attitudes about this.


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## jim777 (May 22, 2007)

My wife and I have ocassionally (3 or 4 times?) allowed the kids to have a sip of wine from one of our glasses to get a taste of it. They have universally decided that wine is nasty 
The "21 year old" thing is totally a legal issue; it was 18 when I was of age, and I'm sure it is likely non-existant for wine in some countries. Another thing to think about is that hard liquor is just plain nasty for the most part, so that in itself is a deterrent. I think I would allow my kids to have a small glass of wine or something with an equally low alcohol % when they got to be 16, but no younger and no more. If I had children that age my opinion would mean more, but I don't, so take it with a shot of...uh, I mean a grain of salt 

jim


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## bushidomartialarts (May 22, 2007)

Lisa said:


> What I am trying to teach my children is that having a responsible drink is no big deal.  I am trying to take the mystery out of alcohol in hopes that they will take their experiences with them and remember them when I am not around and they are out with their friends.  I can't control what they do when I am not around, I can only control what I teach them and hope that mom's voice rings in their ears when they are faced with decisions.



That's what we're hoping for.  I have an image of my son ten years from now, 17 at a party, having some kid hand him a Miller Lite, and saying "Don't hand me that pig piss.  Dad lets me have Fat Tire at home."


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## michaeledward (May 22, 2007)

Wine is food. It should be enjoyed in the same manner as one who enjoys vegetables, starches and proteins. 

Although it may be difficult to find, I recall a wonderful essay by Jeff 'The Frugal Gourmet' Smith, in his book 'The Frugal Gourmet Cooks with Wine' about this idea. I recommend it highly.

I think wine on the table top is appropriate for any child old enough to hold a wine glass. 

By the way, I am alcoholic, and have not personally enjoyed a glass in close to 15 years. And those like me are the only people who shouldn't enjoy a glass of wine at dinner.


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## Kacey (May 22, 2007)

I have seen some studies and reports that learning to drink in moderation at a young age leads to a lower risk of alcoholism - the basic concept was that kids who are allowed to drink _some_ at home learn their limits in a safe environment, and also are less likely to have the attitude that "I've already broken the rules with one drink, so I might as well go ahead and get drunk".  I've seen other studies on this from a cultural perspective, that came out to the same concept; cultures that allow drinking in moderation have a much lower rate of alcoholism than cultures that ban it completely.  A google search on the terms "alcoholism drinking home culture" turned up quite a few references, including this one:



> Given overwhelming evidence for the primacy of sociocultural factors in  determining both drinking patterns and their consequences, it is clear  that ethnographic research findings on the social and cultural roles of  alcohol may have important implications for policy-makers - particularly  in areas such as Europe where economic and political convergence could  have significant impact on drinking-cultures and their associated lifestyles.



I think you're making the right choice here.


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## jks9199 (May 22, 2007)

A couple of suggestions...

In your own home, your own kids are your business.  I'd strongly urge that the rule be that they can only have wine when it's family -- no friends.  That way you avoid any issues where someone else's kids feel drinking is OK in your house.

Also -- I'd strongly suggest that the rule be no wine if they will be leaving the house, especially if they'll be driving.  Underage possession and driving with more than trace amounts (.02 g/210 l breath or .02% BAC in VA) laws are pretty strict -- and strictly enforced.  

Like I said -- it's your business in your home.  Just keep it there!


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## bushidomartialarts (May 22, 2007)

Very good points, JKS.  

So let's take the exercise a step further.

Once my kids are in their teens, what about _getting drunk_ at home perhaps once a year?  Many of the same concepts apply.

I don't want my kid's first room spinning, throwing up drunk to be while he's surrounded by other kids going "RAAAAAWWWWWK ONNNNN!  That dude's crazy!  Chug! Chug!".  I want it to be with me holding his hair over the toilet saying "There now, don't you feel sexy?  Isn't this fun?  Don't you want to do this in front of that girl you like?  I bet she'll find this irresistable.  Would you like another beer?"

I'm not saying this is the plan I'll actually take, but it's a logical extension of the previous question.  Thoughts?


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## mrhnau (May 22, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> Wine is food. It should be enjoyed in the same manner as one who enjoys vegetables, starches and proteins.


No. You don't get arrested for having too many glasses of milk with your meal. You don't run into other drivers because you are inebriated with chicken legs. People don't get violent and beat their wives after eating too much broccoli. Alcohol is a drug. Like many drugs, if its abused, there are problems. Same thing with caffeine, nicotine, etc. Drug, not food.



> I think wine on the table top is appropriate for any child old enough to hold a wine glass.


well, just don't let a cop see you or see evidence of what you have done. Your choice on how to raise your children...


> By the way, I am alcoholic, and have not personally enjoyed a glass in close to 15 years. And those like me are the only people who shouldn't enjoy a glass of wine at dinner.


Props for that. I personally don't drink alcohol, but thats a personal decision. I have no problem with people that use it responsibly.


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## JBrainard (May 22, 2007)

A doctor told me once that the brains of children under 15 or 16 years of age (can't remember which) are still developing rapidly and drinking alchohol before that age can impare that brain development.
As far as drinking casually in front of your kids, I think it's a great idea. My theory is that it shows them that it is normal, not rebellious. Of course, they will be drinking to excess when they get older (doesn't everybody?), just instill in them the fact that if they do so before the age above, they will be making themselves stupid(er).
Oh, and one more thing, if you cook with wine, doesn't most of the alcohol evaporate?


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## JBrainard (May 22, 2007)

Pretty much on topic: Has anyone noticed that some babies LOVE beer. My son didn't really care for it, but you had to keep it out of reach of one of my nephews when he was about 2 years old. And no, his parents are not alcoholics.


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## Andrew Green (May 22, 2007)

mrhnau said:


> Same thing with caffeine, nicotine, etc. Drug, not food.



So should coffee, tea and Mountain Dew be age restricted as well?

Personally I think I would be more dangerous on the road after 4 cans of Red Bull then 4 glasses of wine, yet Red Bull is ok, and doesn't have a age restriction on purchasing it.


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## CityChicken (May 22, 2007)

Food for thought:  I agree that the 21 limit is silly, but it is the law.  If you allow your kids to drink before they are legally able, what are you teaching them about obeying laws?  

If they decide to drink before 21 outside they house, they have to know there are concequenses and punishment.  You need to be honest and clear about your expectations.  You also need to be honest with them about the effects of drinking and that it is a huge responsibility.  One that could kill them if not respected.


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## Andrew Green (May 22, 2007)

I don't know how things are down there, but in Canada parents can legally give there kids alcohal.  Even in restraunts I believe.

What's it teaching them?  That sometimes the gov't takes away your rights for no good reason, and part of your duty as a citizen is not to sit by and let them dictate how you live your personal life


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## JBrainard (May 22, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> I don't want my kid's first room spinning, throwing up drunk to be while he's surrounded by other kids going "RAAAAAWWWWWK ONNNNN! That dude's crazy! Chug! Chug!". I want it to be with me holding his hair over the toilet saying "There now, don't you feel sexy? Isn't this fun? Don't you want to do this in front of that girl you like? I bet she'll find this irresistable. Would you like another beer?"


 
My uncle (a reformed alcoholic) tried this with me. Didn't keep me from getting piss drunk with my friends every weekend when I was in college. Maybe I just don't learn  What finally made my quit drinking to excess was when I finally drank so much that I blacked out. NO FUN. I have only drank to excess once since then, and that was on new years in a lesbian bar. When in Rome...


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## mrhnau (May 22, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> So should coffee, tea and Mountain Dew be age restricted as well?
> 
> Personally I think I would be more dangerous on the road after 4 cans of Red Bull then 4 glasses of wine, yet Red Bull is ok, and doesn't have a age restriction on purchasing it.


Personally, I think the laws are a bit screwy, but thats ok 

Should caffeine be regulated? I think soceity regulates things it thinks are dangerous. Alcohol, in excess, causes problems for people other than the drinker (drunk driving, spousal/family abuse, liver disease). Nicotine causes problems for the user (health wis at least), and possibly for others (second hand smoke). With Caffeine, the damages done are a bit less transparent and not directly effecting other people (at least generally). Alot of places are starting to ban/not use transfat, which I think is a bit odd... They ban that, but not caffeine?

Heck, if I drink 50 glasses of water, I might need to pee so bad I'll speed  However, I'm smart enough not to do that, and I hope most people would be smart enough to not drink 4 Red Bulls, however, I guess not everyone is


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## bushidomartialarts (May 22, 2007)

CityChicken said:


> Food for thought:  I agree that the 21 limit is silly, but it is the law.  If you allow your kids to drink before they are legally able, what are you teaching them about obeying laws?
> 
> If they decide to drink before 21 outside they house, they have to know there are concequenses and punishment.  You need to be honest and clear about your expectations.  You also need to be honest with them about the effects of drinking and that it is a huge responsibility.  One that could kill them if not respected.



In my state, the law also says that parents can serve alcohol to their children in their homes.  I intend to make that clear.

Though on the subject, I also intend to make it clear that I do not consider the law to the the final arbiter of right and wrong.  I was raised to do the right thing, and if that happens to be legal so much the better.


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## BrandiJo (May 22, 2007)

i dont know about amonts to give a child/teen but i wouldnt do anything hard... maybe a half a glass of wine with food before 16 and a beer 16 and above when they hit 20 or so let tehm get smashed a few times to learn how awful it turly is, i think its good that you are trying to do this respeonsibly. My dad is and has been a drunk all my life, and it taught me that there is no limit to drinking that its ok to get so drunk you are still dumb 3 days later and that as long as the police dont stop you your fine to drive, Dispite that i didnt drink till college and i got so freaking smashed before that i dont remember the night or much of the next day and when i came back around i thought it was cool cus this must be how my dad feels. Iv done it sense a few times, but my fienciee has pretty much taught me how to drink responsibly even tho i am still underage. ​


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## michaeledward (May 22, 2007)

CityChicken said:


> Food for thought: I agree that the 21 limit is silly, but it is the law. If you allow your kids to drink before they are legally able, what are you teaching them about obeying laws?


 
This is a realistic, and difficult challenge to address. In my home, it is not an issue, because we don't keep alcohol around the house much. I am a big fan of 'drawing inside the lines'. There is some legitimate merit that adults should not teach children to break the law. 

While alcohol is a drug, it is also, and primarily a food. It should be treated as a food. Of course, we obese Americans have never demonstrated our ability to avoid gluttony very well. Just because the resturaunt sells a 28 ounce steak, it does not follow that we must order and eat a 28 ounce steak. Having a glass of wine with a meal does not mean tapping a keg at the meal. 

I don't think that exposing youngsters to alcohol at an early age has much effect on whether or not they develop into alcoholics as much as the heritage of the young person dictates that. As we have discussed here before, cultures with longer exposure to alcohol (Italian, Greek, Jewish) have lower incidences of alcoholism than those cultures with shorter exposures to alcohol (Irish, Native American).


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## Andrew Green (May 22, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> Just because the resturaunt sells a 28 ounce steak, it does not follow that we must order and eat a 28 ounce steak.




Sometimes I agree with your posts, other times I disagree.

But in this matter sir, you are most definately wrong as it absolutely follows that we must order said steak.  It was written in the sacred scriptures, and so it is a universal truth.  

"Thou shalt order thyself the largest, and juiciest of steaks, lest thou shalt forever be refered to as a Panzy"

It's in the commandments,  "Book of Man"


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## CoryKS (May 22, 2007)

I don't think that the age at which you introduce alcohol to your children has any bearing on whether that child will be a responsible drinker.  My family allowed me the occasional sips / small cups when I was younger.  It didn't stop me from effectively drinking away my 20's.  Responsible drinking comes when the individual recognizes and respects the potential danger in drinking to excess.  It is a force, like electricity, that can be used safely or otherwise.  

Some kids, you tell them to stay away from the outlets or they'll get electrocuted, and they stay away.  Others go looking for a screwdriver to poke it with.


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## Flatlander (May 22, 2007)

I think that I'd have to answer with an "it depends...."

I view the idea of sharing 'parenting philosophies' much in the same light as everything else - it must be understood within it's proper context.  So, how I teach my progeny about alcohol and other drugs will be within the context of responsible decision making.  I'd much rather teach my child to think than to follow my example.  Perhaps my example would be wrong for them within the context of how they self identify.

So, having said that, I think that I'd be more likely to have a discussion with my child about alcohol when they bring it up.  I'd be more likely to start setting limits with them after having had a reasonable discussion about the truths of alcohol - that it will impair them, what that means, how it may manifest, what the risks are, etc.   

Regarding the 'in the home first' idea, I don't think that I'd be the guy to make alcohol a 'common theme' with dinner for my kids.   I might, however, be inclined to let them have a beer with dad after we've been outside working on the yard on Saturday afternoon, or something.  Again, within some type of limit that we have previously identified.  

Interesting question.  Good discussion.  :asian:


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## stephen (May 23, 2007)

From what I understand about most cultures where wine is consumed often with meals, younger ones are started with a wine/water mix which, at first, is not much more than a few drops of wine with a full glass of water. 

As they get older, the mix becomes more wine less water.


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## bushi jon (May 23, 2007)

I was raised drinking wine at dinner time and brew after dinner. I there for no longer drink any type of alchol but with that said if my kids ask for a sip of wine I do not chastise them I hand it to them and they say no thanks.


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## Drac (May 23, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> A couple of suggestions...
> 
> In your own home, your own kids are your business. I'd strongly urge that the rule be that they can only have wine when it's family -- no friends. That way you avoid any issues where someone else's kids feel drinking is OK in your house.
> 
> ...


 
Well said Jim...


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## Carol (May 23, 2007)

Meh....just make sure he gets good grades in Math and Science.  Then you can send him to engineering school and be pretty much guaranteed that he won't be partying


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## Drac (May 23, 2007)

*Hey Parents..*.Prom night is approaching..and it is *NOT* ok if they drink the alcohol *you* purchased and *in your house...*That's trouble you don't need..


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## Ping898 (May 23, 2007)

Something Ironically enough from Today's Dear Abby.....don't know who ehr experts are, but....here's her response on a similar topic though more applicable to underage drinking....take it for whatever it is worth....


> DEAR REAR ADM. MORITSUGU: I'm sure your offer will be appreciated and acted upon by parents nationwide. There is still a common misunderstanding about underage alcohol use. *My experts tell me that young people who start drinking before age 15 are five times more likely to have alcohol problems later in life. Also, new research indicates that alcohol may harm the developing adolescent brain.*
> Parents and other adults who are not sure why -- or how -- to help young people avoid alcohol should ask the National Clearinghouse for "Start Talking Before They Start Drinking: A Family Guide." It's a booklet developed in conjunction with an Ad Council public education campaign bearing that title.


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## michaeledward (May 23, 2007)

I think that many times public face discussions present an agenda point of view, rather than scientific data. As you ask - Who are the experts? Let's see the statistics and methodologies.

We certainly know there is an agenda to prevent drinking in this country. See 18th Amendment. We are still a country of puritans.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 23, 2007)

BrandiJo said:


> ... maybe a half a glass of wine with food before 16 and a beer 16 and above ​



My wife thinks this way too, which doesn't make any damn sense to me.  I _know_ there's this cultural thing about how wine is for successful folk and beer is for slobs, but wine has *3-6 times* the alcohol of beer.  Seriously, since my main concern is does alcohol hurt the developing brain, beer is a much, much better option....

What's up with that attitude?


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## michaeledward (May 23, 2007)

I think your estimate is a bit off. 

Wine will have a slightly higher alcohol content than beer. To get to six times the amount of alcohol, you need to look to fortified wines compared to very weak beers. With natural fermentation, beer will be about 4 to 6 % alcohol whereas wine will be about 10 to 14 % alcohol. So, a more accurate assessment would be that alcohol in wine is about two times the content as the alcohol in beer. But, the serving size is essentially half - a glass of wine will be about 6 fluid ounces to a 12 fluid ounce beer.

So, a glass of beer and a glass of wine, are about the same. 

Or so I think.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 23, 2007)

of course, i'd be serving a shot glass at first, regardless of potable.


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## jks9199 (May 23, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> I think your estimate is a bit off.
> 
> Wine will have a slightly higher alcohol content than beer. To get to six times the amount of alcohol, you need to look to fortified wines compared to very weak beers. With natural fermentation, beer will be about 4 to 6 % alcohol whereas wine will be about 10 to 14 % alcohol. So, a more accurate assessment would be that alcohol in wine is about two times the content as the alcohol in beer. But, the serving size is essentially half - a glass of wine will be about 6 fluid ounces to a 12 fluid ounce beer.
> 
> ...


It depends on how you define a "glass" or a "beer."

12 oz of (most) beer in the US = 4 oz of wine = 1.5 oz of hard liquor, as a general rule.  They all provide about the same amount of alcohol.

One important thing to note...  Wine pours and beer servings are notoriously variable, especially at home.  Cocktails or mixed drinks are little more consistent, by their nature.  (Of course, my folks's martini was about 2 to 3 martinis, by "official" measure!)


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## Tez3 (May 24, 2007)

Living in a country where alcohol and the young has become a serious problem, we seem to have become the binge drinking capital of the world. The general attitude towards alcohol in this country is that it's almost like a forbidden fruit until you become an adult, the introduction of alcopops (alcohol with a sweet mixer in small bottles, don't know if you've got them) encouraged teenagers to drink them to excess - legal drinking age is 18 here. It seems getting drunk is now the sole point of going out. The streets on many of our cities and towns are now awash with young people  and the not so young, fighting, being sick and falling all over the place. Young girls baring their backsides to the cctv cameras, language that would make a marine blush and the general feeling of a world gone mad.
Contrast this with the France and Italy where alcohol is served at family meals being regarded as just part of the meal. The young people sit quite happily drinking coffee and looking very cool! I go on holiday most years to France, sadly many other Brits go too. Then is the contrast is very apparent, the British kids are falling around drunk on the cheap drinks 
while the Franch, Italians, Germans etc are having a very good sober time!

 When my daughter was about 14 we allowed her to bring a friend on holdiay with us, the first night we were in France (Port Grimaud a very popular holiday resort in the south of France, attracts many nationalities) we went to a cafe, we had a beer each, allowed the girls to have one - they chose a tequila flavoured beer ugh- and we sat people watching. We didn't have to say a word to the girls, they both commented on an English girls who was so drunk she fell into a bush, her short skirt going over her head,shreeching at the top of her voice. There were some very good looking Italian boys at the next table, well dressed ( oh to have been younger and single lol) drinking expressos, the look on their faces of sheer horror and derision was enough for the girls! 
The rest of the holiday we let them go out on their own and never did they get drunk, they made friends with some Italians and well as some French and had a great time.They spent the day on the beach with their new friends ( no hangovers) and evenings dancing, chatting and flirting as they should lol! (No drunken fumblings or sex/rape)   This continued for the next couple of years until my daughter left home to work, she still doesn't drink to excess. The girls felt very sophisicated next to the other British girls and we didn't have to worry about them more than normal.

I've always tried to have the same, Continental attitude to alcohol, my parents were the same, we had watered wine at meals from an early age. Alcohol was regarded as a pleasant addition to meals or a night out with friends etc. Sadly in Britain in some places drinking to excess has been accepted as the thing to do, this goes back a long way. Scotland I believe has the highest rate of alcoholism in Europe if not the world. Ireland I think is not far behind it. It's been this way for a very long time.the Government keeps saying something has to be done but then allowed 24 hour opening for pubs and clubs!


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