# Open weight matches in MMA



## Jason Norin (Feb 11, 2015)

Does anyone miss the open weight matches in MMA? I do. And I would love to see if the fighter in today's generation can still perform the same way as the pioneers of MMA did back then. I'd love to see if smaller fighters can still beat bigger fighters given that MMA has already evolved a lot. And I'd love to know what body size is considered to be the most effective in terms of MMA fighting.


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## Transk53 (Feb 11, 2015)

Jason Norin said:


> Does anyone miss the open weight matches in MMA? I do. And I would love to see if the fighter in today's generation can still perform the same way as the pioneers of MMA did back then. I'd love to see if smaller fighters can still beat bigger fighters given that MMA has already evolved a lot. And I'd love to know what body size is considered to be the most effective in terms of MMA fighting.



A bit like the Brendan Conlon Vs Koba kind of thing?


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 11, 2015)

The reason that open weight matches could work back in the day is that you had some huge mismatches in terms of skill and knowledge and experience in what actually is effective in that environment. Put a 180 pound submission expert against a 250 brawler who has never even seen an armbar or triangle choke, and you have a contest.

These days, it is different. There are no secrets. Everyone knows all the techniques and the relevant disciplines. Furthermore, there is a circuit of amateur promotions giving fighters the experience they need before they turn pro. Nowadays the only way to get the sort of skill mismatch that would allow a welterweight to beat a heavyweight would be to pull an inexperienced heavyweight from the amateur ranks and throw him up against  a UFC welterweight contender.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 11, 2015)

Those sorts of matches don't do the sport any good at all.  Japan kept doing them longer then North America, but they where not about sport, just entertainment.  It was basically matching a big guy that didn't know what he was doing against a smaller guy that did.  

That's never going to happen again in any respectable organization.  You can't put two guys who are both elite level fighters but vastly different weight classes in the same ring.  

There is a market for those sorts of fights I suppose, but it's not about high level competition. 

The original UFC events had one goal, promote BJJ.  That's why they where set up the way they where.  It was to showcase that BJJ was capable of beating larger, stronger fighters that didn't know how to fight on the ground.  It did that very well, but now everyone that is fighting knows how to fight standing and on the ground, we also have a legitimate sport instead of the exhibition that got itself banned just about everywhere and taken off of PPV.


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## Steve (Feb 11, 2015)

What I miss is the spectacle and surprise that came from the early UFCs and continued in Pride.  The pure stylists fighting each other.  Size and experience becomes a bit dangerous.  Doesn't matter how big you are, if you are incompetent, you're putting yourself at unnecessary risk.  I dont enjoy seeing people get hurt.  But I do enjoy seeing contests of skill that are unorthodox.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 11, 2015)

Steve said:


> What I miss is the spectacle and surprise that came from the early UFCs and continued in Pride.  The pure stylists fighting each other.  Size and experience becomes a bit dangerous.  Doesn't matter how big you are, if you are incompetent, you're putting yourself at unnecessary risk.  I dont enjoy seeing people get hurt.  But I do enjoy seeing contests of skill that are unorthodox.




Which are done... not going to happen again.  We did the experiment, figured out what worked and now everyone that competes trains to do those things that are effective.  To take a "pure" karate guy and a "pure" wrestler and through them in a MMA cage now would never happen.  If either of them where looking to be competitors they'd put themselves in a MMA gym.  You'd have to be stupid to jump into MMA without studying what has worked for fighters in the past, and anyone that tried would never make it out of the amateurs.

If you want unpredictable fights go watch some local shows with 0-0 fighters, they resemble the early UFC more then watching PPV events.


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## Steve (Feb 11, 2015)

As I was reading the first paragraph, my first reaction was essentially what you wrote in your second paragraph.  There are plenty of fights where relatively pure stylists take each other on, but they are solely in the amateur ranks now.  I don't know about your area, but the schools and promotions around here won't let someone take a pro fight until they have some amateur fights behind them, and by that time they're at least somewhat well rounded, if not very experienced.


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2015)

Steve said:


> What I miss is the spectacle and surprise that came from the early UFCs and continued in Pride.  The pure stylists fighting each other.  Size and experience becomes a bit dangerous.  Doesn't matter how big you are, if you are incompetent, you're putting yourself at unnecessary risk.  I dont enjoy seeing people get hurt.  But I do enjoy seeing contests of skill that are unorthodox.



c class. And also the best opportunity to see if your art holds up.


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## Jason Norin (Feb 11, 2015)

I guess the closest thing we can get is a UFC superfight but it's more like a catchweight match for me. Anyone know if the Silva-GSP fight will push through?


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## Andrew Green (Feb 12, 2015)

Jason Norin said:


> I guess the closest thing we can get is a UFC superfight but it's more like a catchweight match for me. Anyone know if the Silva-GSP fight will push through?



With Silva most likely facing a suspension for steroids I wouldn't hold your breath.


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## Jason Norin (Feb 12, 2015)

That's a bummer.. As far as suspension due to positive drug tests is concerned, I just hope everyone who testes positive would get it.. not selective justice.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 12, 2015)

Jason Norin said:


> That's a bummer.. As far as suspension due to positive drug tests is concerned, I just hope everyone who testes positive would get it.. not selective justice.



I don't think anyone has gotten a free pass after testing positive for steroids.


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## Jason Norin (Feb 12, 2015)

what about Jon bones Jones?


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## Andrew Green (Feb 12, 2015)

Jason Norin said:


> what about Jon bones Jones?



Cocaine is not steroids.  There are lots of drugs which you are not allowed to use while in competition, and others which you are not allowed to use at anytime if you are a competitor.  Any punishment to him would have had to have come from the UFC under a code of conduct violation or something of that sort, not a suspension from the state athletic commission.

Jones got caught for cocaine outside of competition.  While there are ethical issues and it is a illegal drug as far as the legal system is concerned it is not a drug that is illegal as far as the athletic commission is concerned while not in competition.  Same as pain killers and a ton of other over the counter and prescription drugs.  Things that can be used, just not while in competition.  I'm pretty sure if you drink too much coffee before a fight you'll get reprimanded for caffeine in your system.  Do it outside a fight and no one cares.


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## Transk53 (Feb 12, 2015)

Silva getting done for steroids. Not sure if that is a surprise or not considering the leg break. Mind you he is pushing 40 so I guess the nose dive would be dramatic.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Andrew Green said:


> The original UFC events had one goal, promote BJJ.  That's why they where set up the way they where.  It was to showcase that BJJ was capable of beating larger, stronger fighters that didn't know how to fight on the ground.  It did that very well, but now everyone that is fighting knows how to fight standing and on the ground, we also have a legitimate sport instead of the exhibition that got itself banned just about everywhere and taken off of PPV.



You're almost making it sound like the Gracies rigged it.  It was a legit tournament.  

Early UFC's were about pitting different styles against each other to see which one was the best and which are mostly BS.   Yes, the UFC was partly ran by Rorion Gracie, but the Gracies stood the same chances of losing to the other style(s) of MA just the same. If any other styles dominated like Gracies did, of course they were going to make the big $$$ and boast their style for worldwide recognition, just like the Gracie did with their BJJ.    

Royce Gracie fought many who were his size also, and not just bigger fighters.  Come to think of it, most were around his size and slightly bigger in the quarter finals. But isn't it pretty damn impressive to chose to fight someone much bigger and take such high risks to prove the point that BJJ is supreme? They chose Royce because he was small and wiry. Rickson was the real beast of Helio's lineage. For the Gracies to pick  the smaller and weaker, Royce to represent them with such risks just to make a point, well I think they deserve all of that glory and more for their style.


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## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> You're almost making it sound like the Gracies rigged it.  It was a legit tournament.
> 
> Early UFC's were about pitting different styles against each other to see which one was the best and which are mostly BS.   Yes, the UFC was partly ran by Rorion Gracie, but the Gracies stood the same chances of losing to the other style(s) of MA just the same. If any other styles dominated like Gracies did, of course they were going to make the big $$$ and boast their style for worldwide recognition, just like the Gracie did with their BJJ.
> 
> Royce Gracie fought many who were his size also, and not just bigger fighters.  Come to think of it, most were around his size and slightly bigger in the quarter finals. But isn't it pretty damn impressive to chose to fight someone much bigger and take such high risks to prove the point that BJJ is supreme? They chose Royce because he was small and wiry. Rickson was the real beast of Helio's lineage. For the Gracies to pick  the smaller and weaker, Royce to represent them with such risks just to make a point, well I think they deserve all of that glory and more for their style.



You realize the gracies screened challengers right? There was one fighter (rich Franklin I think but someone correct me if I'm wrong) who they had issues with wanting to fight because he was a wrestler.

Now if they did this during the Gracie challenge, odds are they tried to screen cards in the early days of UFC  when graces still had a say...

You can deny it if you want, but we'be had a lot of BJJ guys on this forum say the same thing as Andrew.


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## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

OP,

Now that MMA a legitimate sport, I don't think it'd help at all. It just hurts the publics viewing opinion. They'll  say, "well that's hardly fair!"

personally, I would love for gyms to make it a standard part of their workout. If folks wanna train for SD it's important to learn how to handle folks considerably larger than you. Plus, it's one hell of a workout. we did it in wrestling when I was in high school. When you're wrestling 132, 195 pounders are HEAVY


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## Danny T (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> You're almost making it sound like the Gracies rigged it.  It was a legit tournament.


The first UFC contestants were picked specifically for what kind of fighters they were. The only concern they had was Ken Shamrock due to his high school wrestling and pro wrestling background. What they did have on him was he was fighting 4 days prior in Japan then traveling to the U.S. He would be dealing with jet lag as well. So no they didn't 'rig' but they were very selective as to who would be in the tournament.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> OP,
> 
> Now that MMA a legitimate sport, I don't think it'd help at all. It just hurts the publics viewing opinion. They'll  say, "well that's hardly fair!"
> 
> personally, I would love for gyms to make it a standard part of their workout. If folks wanna train for SD it's important to learn how to handle folks considerably larger than you. Plus, it's one hell of a workout. we did it in wrestling when I was in high school. When you're wrestling 132, 195 pounders are HEAVY



At what pace though? You have a considerably bigger guy just bullying smaller guys and you have a pretty sucky training environment.

(Kramer does karate?)

I don't have the you tube look that up.


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## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> At what pace though? You have a considerably bigger guy just bullying smaller guys and you have a pretty sucky training environment.
> 
> (Kramer does karate?)
> 
> I don't have the you tube look that up.



I will look it up, but simply as a training exercise.

Rough and hard all the same.

The smaller guy isn't meant to win, it's meant to be as a bullying type drill and uphill battle. It's a workout, not a real match or competition. 

When a small guys used to working with someone a heck of a lot bigger, guys his size feel like feathers


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I will look it up, but simply as a training exercise.
> 
> Rough and hard all the same.
> 
> ...



There is a limit to how much you should do it. Because we spar contact we keep an eye out for the guys who are testing themselves against the smaller guys.


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## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> There is a limit to how much you should do it. Because we spar contact we keep an eye out for the guys who are testing themselves against the smaller guys.



I agree, its not something you do every class.

But a time or 2 a week would be very beneficial


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> You realize the gracies screened challengers right? There was one fighter (rich Franklin I think but someone correct me if I'm wrong) who they had issues with wanting to fight because he was a wrestler.
> 
> Now if they did this during the Gracie challenge, odds are they tried to screen cards in the early days of UFC  when graces still had a say...
> 
> You can deny it if you want, but we'be had a lot of BJJ guys on this forum say the same thing as Andrew.


I am sure it was no accident that the first round of the first UFC had Gerard Gordeau facing the much larger Teila Tuli and  Royce facing a boxer with one boxing glove on.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I agree, its not something you do every class.
> 
> But a time or 2 a week would be very beneficial


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## FriedRice (Mar 14, 2015)

Danny T said:


> The first UFC contestants were picked specifically for what kind of fighters they were. The only concern they had was Ken Shamrock due to his high school wrestling and pro wrestling background. What they did have on him was he was fighting 4 days prior in Japan then traveling to the U.S. He would be dealing with jet lag as well. So no they didn't 'rig' but they were very selective as to who would be in the tournament.



Unless you can prove that they WILLFULLY didn't allow people who didn't know how to grapple, in....in order to favor Royce Gracie, then this is all hearsay and fabrication.

Remco Pardoel was a skilled Judoka who Gracie fought. There was a Sumo Wrestler, etc. The Gracie Challenge started in the 1920s, making it over 70 years old at the time of UFC 1.  Do you think that the Gracies dodged all forms of Wrestlers, Judokas, Jujusukas, etc. for that 70 year period and now, dodging them in the inception of the UFC by not letting them enter?  No, it's because Wrestlers and other Grappling arts such as Judo, didn't step up. It was after how they saw Royce Gracie mopped the floor with everyone using grappling art that was basically Jujutsu/Judo Newaza, that they started to sign up for UFC 2 and up. UFC 6 and up, you couldn't swing a dead cat around without hitting a Wrestler or Dan Severn's big butt.


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## FriedRice (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> You realize the gracies screened challengers right? There was one fighter (rich Franklin I think but someone correct me if I'm wrong) who they had issues with wanting to fight because he was a wrestler.
> 
> Now if they did this during the Gracie challenge, odds are they tried to screen cards in the early days of UFC  when graces still had a say...
> 
> You can deny it if you want, but we'be had a lot of BJJ guys on this forum say the same thing as Andrew.



You can't prove any of this. And Rich Franklin is a striker who was also a UFC title holder. 

While there are plenty of proofs on YouTube of the Gracies fighting NHB vs. entire camps of Wrestlers, and this was way before UFC 1. The Gracie Challenge has been going on since the 1920s. It's absurd to say that they've been dodging certain people for 70+ years to the start of UFC 1 and so on.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Steve said:


> What I miss is the spectacle and surprise that came from the early UFCs and continued in Pride.  The pure stylists fighting each other.  Size and experience becomes a bit dangerous.  Doesn't matter how big you are, if you are incompetent, you're putting yourself at unnecessary risk.  I dont enjoy seeing people get hurt.  But I do enjoy seeing contests of skill that are unorthodox.



Look up after shock or whatever your local version is. It is a bit tamer. But it attracts the come and have a go crowd because of it.


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## FriedRice (Mar 15, 2015)

Here's an old video, before UFC 1, where I think a Wrestling camp took up the Gracies on their challenge and came to their gym to fight. The other video is after the inception of the UFC. But I doubt that the Gracies dodged any Wrestlers or Grapplers. They didn't just want to show that their BJJ was superior to standup striking of all styles, but to also dominate other grappling arts. But one of the main attraction of the early UFC was to see what would happen  when a Striker meets a Grappler. And with any type of tournaments such as this, as a Promoter, you don't want to put the best fighters in the same bracket and risk them fighting each other right off the bat in the prelims....otherwise you'd have the best fighters quickly cancelling his counterpart out and then fighting some dud on the other side, making it a snore of a Finale.


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## Jason Norin (Mar 16, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Here's an old video, before UFC 1, where I think a Wrestling camp took up the Gracies on their challenge and came to their gym to fight. The other video is after the inception of the UFC. But I doubt that the Gracies dodged any Wrestlers or Grapplers. They didn't just want to show that their BJJ was superior to standup striking of all styles, but to also dominate other grappling arts. But one of the main attraction of the early UFC was to see what would happen  when a Striker meets a Grappler. And with any type of tournaments such as this, as a Promoter, you don't want to put the best fighters in the same bracket and risk them fighting each other right off the bat in the prelims....otherwise you'd have the best fighters quickly cancelling his counterpart out and then fighting some dud on the other side, making it a snore of a Finale.



I remember watching a video by Royce Gracie fighting a Kung Fu practitioner way before UFC1 was launched.


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