# Closed fist vs Palm?



## Cagekicker (Nov 9, 2014)

What is more effective?  I'm trying to reprogram my brain into using open hand strikes when striking at the head.  My instinct is to strike with a fist to the head.  Unless up close then it's elbows all the way.  I do not train to kick much above the waist.  I can but I just don't.  I have used a front snap kick to an assailants head.  He was mounted on my partner choking him with a front choke.  I kicked him he went lights out we took him to jail.  One of the issues I'm having is wrist flexibility.  I have very tight wrist.  Any time I have to do palm heal strikes to a bag or upper chest of another my wrist and forearms start hurting real quick.  The top of my hand where my knuckle joist star will hit first because I cannot pull my hand flat.  This really sucks.  Is this a common problem that can be fixed through constant stretching? Lastly do you feel a palm heal to the head is just as effective as a punch?  I don't mean head like the forehead I mean head area including face and jaw ect.


----------



## Mephisto (Nov 9, 2014)

Good topic! If one doesn't train punches I don't recommend using them but I suppose it's a natural instinct for most. I do train punches but for street application Id only recommend targeting the jaw. I've done a number on my knuckles punching guys in the head before but the damage to them was worse. I'd think wrist flexibility would be less of an issue when hitting the head due to the heads shape. I've had trouble working palms on the bag before and I have pretty flexible wrists. I imagine a palm to the chest would be similar. For training palms in real time we'll often Palm the shoulder. The idea is if I can hit the shoulder I can hit the head and the body movement required to move the shoulder out of the way also moves your head out of the way. Another option is hammer fists, pretty safe for anyone to through just watch that you don't make contact with the pinky first.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 9, 2014)

I just can't get my head around open palms so I will hit closed fist as a personal preference.


----------



## Argus (Nov 9, 2014)

Hit with whatever the situation dictates. There are times when a fist offers the most direct line of attack; other times, the edge of the hand, and other times still, the palm. This is really a natural thing for me, and happens without my consciously thinking or choosing, but that's probably just thanks to the way we practice in the system that I train.

The palm does have a distinct advantage when attacking the face; not only is it safer, but it's less likely to glance off at an awkard angle than a fist is, as you have more contact surface. It's also allows you to get under the chin and throw the head back, or otherwise control the opponent's head and take his balance.

If you only ever practice one technique, such as punching, for example, you won't naturally apply other weapons when they fit the situation - nor will you be confident in your ability to generate power with them. So, it's a good idea to think about what weapon is best suited to each situation or angle of attack that is open to you, and practice them all. After all, if you don't internalize it in practice, it won't come out in application.

It's worth noting that, I do feel that most weapons other than punches are better suited for close-range fighting and self defense than point sparring and such. If you're always sparring at a distance, and/or using gloves, you can't really learn to make use of open-hand techniques.


----------



## Paul_D (Nov 9, 2014)

I don't think it's a question of which is more effective, they are both equally effective I believe. Although I train to strike with fists in MA, I train open hand strikes at home for SD, mostly as it lessens the chances of damaging your hand (and therefore having to continue with one hand).  If you are having issues with wrists flexibility, try stretching, warm up exercises used by Ju-Jitsi & Aikido.


----------



## K-man (Nov 9, 2014)

I agree that it depends on the target but normally I would use open hand to the head unless I had a set shot to the jaw. Open hand shots whether knife hand, heel palm or open hand are generally faster than a punch due to the relaxed arm, unless of course you practise punching with a relaxed arm, in which case the speed is the same.

As for elbows, I also agree. If the range is right the elbow is king.
:asian:


----------



## Buka (Nov 10, 2014)

I guess it depends on what you're used to. You mentioned that it's painful when you do palm strikes on the bag or to the chest of another person - is the lack of flexibility preventing you from having the proper angle, is it hindering the actual strike, or is it just a pain in the butt? What do you like hitting with better, fists or palms?

It's tougher as a cop. (Isn't every damn thing?) An altercation that leads to you breaking your hand puts you at more risk than most. If there's escalation and you can't draw your weapon because of a broken hand - uh oh. I know some say "I'll draw it anyway, broken hand or not" fine in theory, but we all know how that works. Makes handgun retention SO much more difficult as well.

Do you like slapping? Do you work on any dope slaps that come from the side as opposed to straight like most palm heels? And what kind of punches do you tend to throw most often? Straight or more angled? More of a Karate type punch or more like a boxer? Have you hurt your hands much from punching? (I know, I have more questions than answers )


----------



## Zero (Nov 10, 2014)

Not wading into the "this vs that" and what is best or when to use what, here's what I used to do to strengthen my wrists, both for gymnastics and for weight lifting and also for wrist strength, flexibility and grip for judo.  

Get on all fours with your palms on the floor and your hands facing _backwards_, ie: your fingers pointing towards your knees (instead of out ahead of you). Get used to holding your hands in this position for spells of time. After a while when the flexibility is coming and you feel less tightness, start exerting downwards pressure through and into your wrists and hands.  Like weight lifting you can do say three sets of 15 reps, with each rep being exerting the pressure for say ten seconds, release pressure and then reapply after say .5 to 1 second.  After time you can build up the downwards pressure and the flex of the wrist.

After a couple weeks of this, move onto doing handstands leaning against the wall in your house or wherever you have space to train.  Hold your body weight for increased periods of time in handstand position.  Again once you have built up the strength and used to this, start doing push ups while in hand stand against wall, with a small range of motion at first then to full range of verticle push up over time.  By now you will have both flexible and strong wrists and can palm strike your way through a brick wall and rip out the guy's heart behind said wall in one go.

Aside from the above, you could also use traditional wrist strength training exercises from goju ryu, look them up on the net, and/or by holding a light dumbbell or short steel rod/bar in you fist supported on your knee or on a bench and turn it left to right and flex up and downwards.  As long as you use a full range of wrist motion so that it is flexibility as well as strength that you are building, this should be fine.
Peace


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 10, 2014)

It all depends upon the target of the strike.  For a soft body target, a fist can be used to great effect.  Going further, using a one-knuckle punch can be extremely effective.  On a hard body target, for example the head/face, from a SD perspective it is generally accepted that an open hand strike is the better choice.


Closed hand runs the risk of self injury i.e. boxers fracture.  This will limit options concerning manual dexterity i.e. operating a cell phone to call for help, accessing and operating a firearm (both in firing, loading, reloading and clearing a malfunction), using a concealed or improvised weapon or something as 'simple' as using keys to lock a door or start a car.  In short, it limits SD options depending upon the severity of the self injury.
An open wound i.e. cutting your knuckles on their teeth/bone structure now opens you up to blood borne pathogen.  This is an extremely important consideration, and one that is often overlooked.

Couple of points to consider;  First, professional boxers wear gloves (and hand wraps) to protect their hands.  Even with this protection they still get injured in the ring.  Professional boxers outside the ring have broken their hands in street brawls.  Secondly, WWII combatives, possibly the most effective (and brutal) SD system around advocates the use of open hand strikes to the head/face i.e. the chin jab.  

This doesn't mean that exceptions exist, but the general rule is for an open hand to the head/face, particularly when one is not wearing hand protection.  As pointed out, elbow strikes are an exceptional tool and I'd personally rather use an elbow if applicable than a closed fist.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 10, 2014)

Elbows are tricky to get off. And they don't normally have the ko power of a punch. Unless you can do fancy uppercut elbows which are even harder to pull off. Or you have sucker elbowed the guy.

I have a scar over my left eye from an elbow I ate. But it was never a case where I was rocked from it. Having a scar sucks though.

So the elbow punch thing is kind of tricky. They are generally used for different strategies rather than one being the better strike.

I have open hand hit people but I just don't get the juice I would hitting them. I have cut my hands fighting but never broken them to the point I couldn't use it. I have also cut my hands wrestling so I don't really know how easily you can protect them.

Where the open palm has its issues is that the fingers are exposed. As you are launching the thing forwards at speed you need to be careful they don't catch a blocking arm. Same with the target. It moves say the head dips forwards then you wrist lock yourself.

Using your hands at all as an impact weapon has risks. And my advice is test it live before you rely on it. Regardless of what hand method you use.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Elbows are tricky to get off. And they don't normally have the ko power of a punch. Unless you can do fancy uppercut elbows which are even harder to pull off. Or you have sucker elbowed the guy.
> 
> I have a scar over my left eye from an elbow I ate. But it was never a case where I was rocked from it. Having a scar sucks though.
> 
> ...


Wow, it is like you are speaking Martian right now.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 11, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Wow, it is like you are speaking Martian right now.



Yes I can imagine. It is like that most of the time.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Yes I can imagine. It is like that most of the time.


I would teach a woman to fight with her elbows, before fighting with her fists. (Her tiny little fists)
Sean


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Elbows are tricky to get off. And they don't normally have the ko power of a punch. Unless you can do fancy uppercut elbows which are even harder to pull off. Or you have sucker elbowed the guy.
> 
> I have a scar over my left eye from an elbow I ate. But it was never a case where I was rocked from it. Having a scar sucks though.
> 
> ...



I agree with Touch of Death, you're speaking martian.  I don't know how you do an elbow strike, but I'll take an elbow strike over a punch any day of the week.  Particularly CQC elbow strikes which DEFINITELY have K.O. power.  More so than a punch and then some.  I'll submit it isn't the strike(s), it's how you've learned to use them.  Case in point, the palm heel (or chin jab) having exposed fingers.  Not an issue as the fingers only make contact if you're doing something akin to the Tiger Claw.  And in that case it is against a soft tissue target.  Otherwise, using something like the classic WWII Chin Jab, the fingers initially aren't in contact with a hard body target.


----------



## Buka (Nov 11, 2014)

Everybody strikes differently. And I mean all kinds of differently. I've been fortunate to have learned punching from great trainers, I love punching and have never broken my hands. Had some nasty bruises and sprains on them, but who here hasn't? Broken plenty of fingers, but usually blocking, never punching. But elbows? If you like to fight "in the kitchen", elbows are the greatest thing since sliced bread. In my opinion, properly thrown elbows are much stronger than punching. And I can take a good punch - but have no desire to ever get hit by an elbow again.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 11, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I agree with Touch of Death, you're speaking martian.  I don't know how you do an elbow strike, but I'll take an elbow strike over a punch any day of the week.  Particularly CQC elbow strikes which DEFINITELY have K.O. power.  More so than a punch and then some.  I'll submit it isn't the strike(s), it's how you've learned to use them.  Case in point, the palm heel (or chin jab) having exposed fingers.  Not an issue as the fingers only make contact if you're doing something akin to the Tiger Claw.  And in that case it is against a soft tissue target.  Otherwise, using something like the classic WWII Chin Jab, the fingers initially aren't in contact with a hard body target.




Ok I am talking about standard elbow strikes I have seen or used. They don't knock people out as reliably as punching. There might be some special cqc elbow that I have not been exposed to that is more efficient than say Thai style elbows. And would be interested to see how your version is more effective.

Elbows do knock people out but generally under different circumstances.

I think I get the Martian bit. I will try to explain the difference.

When I am discussing effectiveness I am saying effectiveness against a moving and resisting oponant. Which adds complexity to these moves so a chin jab on a stationary target is safe as houses. Against a moving reacting target has risks. Having used palm heels live in sparring and in fights hands get caught and injured.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 11, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> I would teach a woman to fight with her elbows, before fighting with her fists. (Her tiny little fists)
> Sean



I can't see why there would be a cause to teach a woman one or the other. I would assume you would give that woman as many tools as you can.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Ok I am talking about standard elbow strikes I have seen or used. They don't knock people out as reliably as punching. There might be some special cqc elbow that I have not been exposed to that is more efficient than say Thai style elbows. And would be interested to see how your version is more effective.
> 
> Elbows do knock people out but generally under different circumstances.
> 
> ...


If you get real close, all those strikes you mention lead with the elbow, which make them the second strike in a sequence; however, I am a big fan of the upward elbow to the chin, in might not knock them out, but it does leave them open for a knock out.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 11, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you get real close, all those strikes you mention lead with the elbow, which make them the second strike in a sequence; however, I am a big fan of the upward elbow to the chin, in might not knock them out, but it does leave them open for a knock out.



Second strike as in punch then elbow of the one hand?

Hitting them with the elbow is the trick. They get evaded and get blocked a lot because they don't have the range of motion of a hand strike. And you have to hit really flush to make it more than a cutting strike.

Otherwise as to exactly why elbows don't ko like punches is kind of guesswork. Statistically they don't in competition. And maybe again it is because they don't have that range of motion to get a good bit of speed up.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Second strike as in punch then elbow of the one hand?
> 
> Hitting them with the elbow is the trick. They get evaded and get blocked a lot because they don't have the range of motion of a hand strike. And you have to hit really flush to make it more than a cutting strike.
> 
> Otherwise as to exactly why elbows don't ko like punches is kind of guesswork. Statistically they don't in competition. And maybe again it is because they don't have that range of motion to get a good bit of speed up.


Secondary as in, if you get close the elbow and fore-arm will, often times, hit the body before the fist reaches it's target, but I am a mauler.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 11, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Secondary as in, if you get close the elbow and fore-arm will, often times, hit the body before the fist reaches it's target, but I am a mauler.



See I disagree with that even in close. As hand striking finds gaps a bit better.


----------



## Takai (Nov 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> See I disagree with that even in close. As hand striking finds gaps a bit better.



That would be dependent on your position, the opponents position and where the hole is.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 11, 2014)

Takai said:


> That would be dependent on your position, the opponents position and where the hole is.


If they don't see it coming, there is no hole.


----------



## Takai (Nov 11, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> If they don't see it coming, there is no hole.



Only because you have filled it with an attack.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> There might be some special cqc elbow that I have not been exposed to that is more efficient than say Thai style elbows.



DB, take a look at Tony Blauer's explanation of two types of CQC elbow strikes, the horizontal and the vertical.







There are several things to note in this clip.  First is the gross motor/muscle memory built into these strikes.  In the case of the vertical elbow strike (as I teach my students, basically taking your thumb and putting it in the middle of your back and having the elbow follow the same trajectory) you've been doing this all your life i.e. scratching an itch or washing your back when you take a shower.  With the horizontal elbow strike, the same thing as he's explained i.e. putting on the seat belt.  This is an example of 'by rote' gross motor skill training that we've all done and applying it to a combative situation.  Secondly is the range that these strikes can be used in.  One can be at typical fighting distances, but more importantly they can be at grappling distance.  Indeed, when we train we are literally nose-to-nose and my philosophy is to be able to fight inside a phone booth.  If you have the space to move your hand, the elbow will follow the same trajectory.  

This generates an incredible amount of power in a very short _range-of-motion_ movement.  As an example of a real world altercation, one of our Deputies fought an EDP on the inside of his own cruiser during an attack.  Visualize the inside of a cruiser and the very limited amount of space considering the steering wheel, computer, console etc.  The Deputy was on the top of the EDP who was across both seats literally lifting the Deputy against the inside roof of the vehicle (choking him out with a forearm across his throat).  The Deputy utilized two horizontal elbow strikes as Tony demonstrates (the Deputy had taken SPEAR from Tony just a few months before this altercation).  The elbow strikes incapacitated the EDP (he was knocked unconscious) and you'd think someone had take a bat to the guys face.  Not an exaggeration.  It closed both eyes due to swelling (both sides high cheek/under the eye were fractured).  

This is just one example.  That these elbow strikes are used in conjunction with SPEAR is a bonus and why our agency (and many others) utilize this training method.  As far as the OP, I'd use a closed fist strike to a soft tissue target, if applicable to the situation such as the abdomen, solar plexus etc.  But I'd opt for an open hand strike to a hard target with an emphasis on EOH (edged of hand), forearm or elbow in combination between hard/soft targets.  In addition to working well with SPEAR they also work well with things like the O'Neill cover, crazy monkey cover, double or single ram or elbow spikes.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 11, 2014)

Takai said:


> That would be dependent on your position, the opponents position and where the hole is.



Which I have sort of mentioned.

That elbows are a tactical choice rather than some sort of superior striking method. Thee are defiantly circumstances where elbows will lay people out.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 11, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> If they don't see it coming, there is no hole.



You are asking for a pretty advantageous position to throw that from. A lot of strikes are superior if you don't see it coming.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 11, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> DB, take a look at Tony Blauer's explanation of two types of CQC elbow strikes, the horizontal and the vertical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Also we should note the way he employed his defensive hands and what happens to a palm strike trying to crash through that a perfect example of how you can injure you hands. 

And how the target is stationary. If the head slips back the elbow misses. so as far as gross motor movement actually landing that elbow flush becomes a complicated timing issue. Not so with a punch especially in close. Now if the head is stationary then yeah throw the elbow.

Ground and pound like your cruiser example the elbow has really good options as well.

But what seems to be this idea of walking into a hail of punches to throw an elbow is just not going to work very well.

Most of the effective elbows I have seen are like this. Out of the blue sucker shots. And not necessarily two people fighting shots.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBkszzm-7mw


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Also we should note the way he employed his defensive hands and what happens to a palm strike trying to crash through that a perfect example of how you can injure you hands.



Your assessment is not backed up by fact.  We've been using SPEAR and it's related concepts in our agency for nearly 20 years and no Deputy has ever injured their hands when employing to system.  Nor has any agency I'm aware of that uses SPEAR and it's related concepts ever had an Officer injure their hands as a result of employing the system.  


> And how the target is stationary.



The target needs to remain stationary for the purpose of his explanation.  In the real world it doesn't matter whether or not it is stationary.  And indeed the system is designed with the consideration that it won't be stationary. 



> f the head slips back the elbow misses. so as far as gross motor  movement actually landing that elbow flush becomes a complicated timing  issue.



Not at all. I don't think you understand SPEAR or the premise that it is based upon.  SPEAR is based upon several foundational aspects which have borne out under real world use i.e. startle/flinch response and CWCT (closest weapon closest target) to name a couple.  It doesn't matter if the elbow strike lands or not because you've set yourself up (and the attacker) for the next strike in the series.  One is able to employ five strikes in just over one second to include SPEAR, elbow strikes and palm heels.  If one misses (and it is expected that it might, though there exists a very good chance that it won't miss) then you've placed yourself in the position to inflict another one.  Each of which could end the fight in short order.  And too be honest, the response is so fast/dynamic/fluid/brutal that the attacker could actually be incapacitated early in the series of strikes yet the rest continue to rain in because his reaction is slower than your action. 



> But what seems to be this idea of walking into a hail of punches to throw an elbow is just not going to work very well.



No offense, but your statement shows that you don't understand CQC systems such as SPEAR (and I'll include PCR into that category).  While there exists no need to 'walk into a hail of punches'...using SPEAR you almost hope the guy is doing exactly that.  Makes everything easier.  This is why the system, and the covers I've mentioned work so well in real world altercations.

It is simply easy to learn, retained in long term muscle memory, uses the bodies own actions/reactions and works under the conditions of a real fight.  That's why it's been used for decades.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 12, 2014)

Cagekicker said:


> What is more effective?



As with everything it depends. 



Cagekicker said:


> I'm trying to reprogram my brain into using open hand strikes when striking at the head.



Is this because of something you want personally or because of something you have to do for regulations and process? 
* Assumption based upon your name of CageKicker and have a partner and taking someone to jail is that you are a Deputy Sheriff who worked in the jails and now is working on the road. *



Cagekicker said:


> My instinct is to strike with a fist to the head.  Unless up close then it's elbows all the way.



Elbows are good. 



Cagekicker said:


> I do not train to kick much above the waist.  I can but I just don't.  I have used a front snap kick to an assailants head.  He was mounted on my partner choking him with a front choke.  I kicked him he went lights out we took him to jail.



I see you have some confrontations in your work. As your partner was in danger, your actions may not have been questioned, yet in other cases it could be. Hence the question you have asked?




Cagekicker said:


> One of the issues I'm having is wrist flexibility.  I have very tight wrist.  Any time I have to do palm heal strikes to a bag or upper chest of another my wrist and forearms start hurting real quick.  The top of my hand where my knuckle joist star will hit first because I cannot pull my hand flat.  This really sucks.



Turn your fingers our 45 degrees, thumb can be up or down depending upon where you want to go next. 



Cagekicker said:


> Is this a common problem that can be fixed through constant stretching?



Assumption is that you will be in a vehicle with partner. 

If driving a few times an hour stretch your hands using the steering wheel as a fixed point to stretch against. If not driving on the passenger side use the assist handle for getting into the vehicle for the same stretch. This may be more obvious as you may have to have a hand up or across your body. 

Your stretch may never get where you want depending upon past injuries. 




Cagekicker said:


> Lastly do you feel a palm heal to the head is just as effective as a punch?  I don't mean head like the forehead I mean head area including face and jaw ect.



It can be. 


Now, personally I prefer the palm strikes. My hands look open. the look less threatening. Witnesses do not see the fist so your actions look more like pushes and defensive versus offensive. 

I also like open hand to hook or cup the head to hold or guide it the elbow strike you stated you liked.   


So to help reprogram, you can find a BOB training dummy at many Gyms now, and you can use your palm strikes to assist in your elbow strikes. Of course reality is never the same as training, as in reality the opponent will move more and or be oblivious to pain due to drugs. So working with a live training partner is good and the next step for your training after the solo training with the BOB. 


Good Luck


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You are asking for a pretty advantageous position to throw that from. A lot of strikes are superior if you don't see it coming.


Look up obscure zones, sometime.


----------



## Cagekicker (Nov 17, 2014)

Rich Parsons said:


> As with everything it depends.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are right I've been in law enforcement for 12 years.  Main reason I'm trying to move away from punching to the head is I don't really want to make them bleed.  Not saying a palm to the nose or chin and they bite there lip is not going to make them bleed.  I don't really train my hands and I've busted knuckles punching people to the face as well as brused my hands.  I have not broken them.  A lot of the people I have to deal with are IV meth users lots of them share pins and diseases.  My department and state allows punching to the head in non deadly force incidents but you better be justified.  Pretty much if they are punching at your head you can return the favor.   However the don't recommend it nor does my MA instructor.  If it's deadly force all bets are off I'm ripping a throat out with my teeth if I have to.  I've started lightly stretching my wrist hands and fingers 2-3 times a day.  Seems to be helping a bit but I think it's going to take a long time to get my hand flat.


----------



## cfr (Dec 13, 2014)

Greetings. I rarely post here but I'm pretty familiar with this topic and it sounded like fun on a boring day. I started open palm striking years ago after spraining a wrist. Personally, I found that after some time I can hit significantly hard this way. I'll admit it doesn't work (for me) with all punches, but yes I'm a big fan. 

FWIW


----------



## KydeX (Dec 13, 2014)

If you punch a bit more upwards, for instance to the jaw, you can bend your elbow slightly instead of a straight punch. Then you don't have to bend your wrist that much backwards to do a palm strike.

The drawback is that your reach will be a little shorter. 

It all depends on your training. 20 years ago I used to train kyokushin karate and fight full contact competitions. I could punch whatever I wanted with a closed fist. My knuckles and wrist could take it with no problems due to all the training and hardening. Nowadays I can't, because I don't have time to do the necessary training. I train in the Bujinkan now, and I use more open handed strikes, to avoid injury to myself.


----------

