# Dojo challenges, do they still happen?



## HandsOfStone (Jul 12, 2005)

I was watching Larry Tatum's kenpo "Insights" video, and during an interview he said that when he first started teaching in West Los Angeles in the early 80's, he got a quite a few people coming in off the street to challenge him. He said that on several occasions he had to basically defend his life and that it was like during the old west "gunfighter" days.  Some of the people were martial artists, some were streetfighters. He said that he had to be on guard at all times (must have been nerve wrecking just going in to work!) because he was also located next to a Veteran's hospital, and they would let the patients getting mental treatment get loose and roam around.

Has anyone here had an instructor that was challenged in the dojo or training hall? Maybe there's even someone here who issued a challenge themselves "back in the day"?  

I haven't heard of anything like this, so I'm curious if it even happens in today's times, what with people so quick to file lawsuits these days.


----------



## The Kai (Jul 12, 2005)

I've been asked by more then one street pinhead-wanna be streetfighhter


----------



## terryl965 (Jul 12, 2005)

Hands of Stone in the early day's there was always a challenge for the right of a Dojo or Dojaang, but I have never heard of this since the seventies and then it was far and in between. The right to challedge was a art form all it owns the way I understood from many older guys.
I'm sure on this forum someone has had thechallenge thrown at them just not me.
Terry


----------



## dubljay (Jul 12, 2005)

Yeah this happened a while ago in the small town I live in. Some tough guy said he could whip all the black belts at the single school thats in the town, along with other disparaging remaks and thinly veiled threats. The school owner set up a day and time for this challange to take place. Basic rules were no eye shots, no groin shots and no weapons. The owner had a waiver written up and notarized by his lawyer stating that the owner could not be held liable for the consequences of the match and that _anyone_ involved in the challange match could not sue or be sued as a result of it, this included the black belts that agreed to fight him. The guy never showed.... 

 In my opinion both parties were acting rather immaturely. Though I was not a student of that school I trained with many of his students, and occasionally helped teach a sparring class, I was asked to participate as well, I declined.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 12, 2005)

General answer: Yes, they still go on. Some friendly, some not so friendly.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## kenpochad (Jul 12, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> . Basic rules were no eye shots, no groin shots and no weapons.


no groin shots that takes all the fun outa things


----------



## dubljay (Jul 12, 2005)

kenpochad said:
			
		

> no groin shots that takes all the fun outa things


 
 Well it's obvious it would have been ineffective against the guy, clearly he had none as he didn't show up.


----------



## OULobo (Jul 12, 2005)

I used to get a challange every so often, when I was running a college club. They were always either cocky or wary. It was the wary ones that worried me. They were just interviewing to see if they could handle or intimidate me. The cocky ones just hadn't learned about humility yet, or were some backyard fight club punk. Most were friendly or honorable. I had one nasty one, but they have a tendancy to back off when the whole club pulls ax handles and staves, with the occational machete, screwdriver and spyderco scattered about the assembly. An unfriendly, uncontrolled challange is called a threat, and facing threats requires no rules or honor. So this means friends and weapons are perfectly acceptable. 

I did hear a story about an instructor in his school that was told by someone off the street that he couldn't teach his style anymore. When he dismissed the man, the man challenged him. So the instructor got two machetes off the wall and threw one at the man's feet saying, "pick it up". The man said, "no, the challange is empty hand." The instructor said, "you can go empty hand if you want", and started to advance. The man decided to leave.


----------



## Paul B (Jul 12, 2005)

Not so much challenges around here as punks off the str33t who have watched UFC from it's inception wondering in and making loud remarks about their dubious "mad skillz". They are then usually shown the door. It's not the best neighborhood so it's to be expected. 

A couple have even come back wanting to be students..and end up hanging around for awhile and then quit once they realize it's hard work. Ah well. Like OULobo said it's the quiet ones that worry me.


----------



## evenflow1121 (Jul 12, 2005)

I had a close friend of mine who studied the Tracy System who had these sort of challenges when he was younger in the 1970's and when he first began to teach on his own.

Another friend of mine who is a Hung Gar Master now, when he first started out in NY would get challenges all the time.  Said the Tiger Claws were very effective for him.  People would just walk in and challenge him.


----------



## Laborn (Jul 12, 2005)

well, my school....me personally asked, and a few other students asked, if we could challenge the ATA dojang, but our instructer said we couldn't because of law suites. darn there went my fun lol (btw i dont mean real actually fighting, i mean sparring, seeing which school is best*

Laborn


----------



## Shogun (Jul 12, 2005)

A funny thing you will se about the Gracie schools is how they tell the macho UFC wannabe guys to leave the school. They made their art famous by it being unbeatable in any match and dojo challenges are among them. not to say if someone challenged a gracie they would turn it down, its just they dont like the "i'm a tough guy, beat everyone up with my mad jiujitsu skills" mentality.


----------



## Han-Mi (Jul 12, 2005)

we have had a few, one time a less experienced instructor let a color belt spar with a guy off the street and the color belt kicked him once and th guy ran out. My instructor doesn't like to let in to the dummies off the streets in general. Once though, a guy came in and wouldn't stop disrupting the calss, a real big guy. My instructor told all of the sudents to go downstairs and to call an ambulence in 5 minutes, basiically scared the guy off with that. He really thought that the guys was serious by what he was saying, so he thought an ambulence would be necessary one way or another, he thought it was a great side affect that the guy backed out because of it.

as the general public comes to understand the martial arts, this all happens less and less, but it still happens


----------



## arnisador (Jul 12, 2005)

It happens. A fellow instructor was telling me a story along those lines last night!

I wish I had a link for the Hee Il Cho story--he dropped a challenger, then had to pay a few tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills (if memory serves).


----------



## bignick (Jul 12, 2005)

Coming secondhand, so please take with a grain of salt.

But back in the 70's, the man that started our tae kwon do school was supposedly challenged by his nephew.  And he almost killed his nephew.  From what I've heard, ribs high up in his rib cage were supposedly broken and among the other injuries the doctors thought the guy had been in a car accident.  Again, supposedly, the fact that he was family was the reason he wasn't killed.

An interesting story, but the I'm not sure if it's been blown out of proportion through time or not


----------



## Ubermint (Jul 13, 2005)

Buy the gracie challenge tapes. Rorion's narration alone is worth the price.


----------



## TerryC (Jul 13, 2005)

When I was taking lessons in the Philippines in the 70's and 80's near the US military bases, we frequently had American GI's who had just arrived in the Philippines come in as issue challenges. My master always accomodated them by letting them "spar" with his nephew, a 120 lb. 3rd dan.

They had a routine.....the master would let them go for a few minutes until the challenger thought he was doing pretty good, then give his nephew a slight nod...then the nephew would put the challenger on his ***.

Very entertaining, and our school gained a few dedicated new students that way. At least the ones who were humble enough to acknowlege they made a mistake.


----------



## kenpochad (Jul 13, 2005)

Theres storys of a school here in town where the owner would go out
and get in bar fights and after him beats on the guy he give him a card and tells the guy if you want to learn to fight like me come to my school 
i dont know if this is just a story but ive heard this from differnt people


----------



## searcher (Jul 13, 2005)

They do happen, but as stated before they are not often.   I have never heard of someone issuing a challenge and then stting rules.   This just sounds weird.   You don't have rules in  a street fight and the same goes for a dojo/dojang challenge.


----------



## clfsean (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm sure they still happen, but in today's litigation based society, I gotta say not to often... even for a "friendly match".


----------



## bushi jon (Jul 13, 2005)

I get challenge by the same crack head (female) every tuesday around 6 to fight as she says it with nun-chuckas


----------



## Flatlander (Jul 13, 2005)

kenpochad said:
			
		

> Theres storys of a school here in town where the owner would go out
> and get in bar fights and after him beats on the guy he give him a card and tells the guy if you want to learn to fight like me come to my school
> i dont know if this is just a story but ive heard this from differnt people


That sounds dangerous and irresponsible.  One day, that school owner will end up crippled, dead, or in jail for seriously hurting someone.  I hope he was not some unfortunate child's father.


----------



## kenpochad (Jul 13, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> That sounds dangerous and irresponsible. One day, that school owner will end up crippled, dead, or in jail for seriously hurting someone. I hope he was not some unfortunate child's father.


very irresponsible at best!

he is lucky that he never ran in to some where they rather shoot you than play around .


----------



## DeLamar.J (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes they do still happen. There are two ways to challenge, disrespectfully or respectfully. Its always best to be on good terms with people if you plan to make freinds to crosstrain with. The best way to go about this is just to ask the main man if he minded if you did some hard sparring with some of his black belts. They can say yes or no. If the answer is no then say no problem sir, I was just wanting some new experience sparring against other styles and I heard your school had very good fighters, even if you didnt hear that, say it anyway.


----------



## Tgace (Jul 13, 2005)

Theyre stupid validations of "fantasy warriorism". Meet at an organized event if you feel the need to "prove" anything.


----------



## Flatlander (Jul 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Theyre stupid validations of "fantasy warriorism". Meet at an organized event if you feel the need to "prove" anything.


Good point!  I would say that meeting at an event and "proving" your mettle is much more respectful than entering _another person's dojo during time allotted for teaching_.  Really, the principle applies to many different circumstances.  Push your agenda on your own time; don't waste someone else's.


----------



## Shogun (Jul 13, 2005)

When my instructor first started teaching here, he taught at a Karate school. The guy who owns the school took classes from him, and in one of them he learned the armbar from the mount. he went home and showed his son (who is among other things, yondan in shito ryu karate) the move he had learned. the son escaped the technique (it was being applyed by someone new to GJJ). nevertheless, the son said GJJ didnt work and he kinda challenged my instrcutor. it wasnt like a fight or anything but they sparred for about 30 seconds until my instrcutor trapped a kick and caught him in a kneebar and tapped him. all the other guys that were there decided to learn GJJ after that, but the son still would not yield. oh well. same type of thing happened at the next school he taught at, only it was a taekwondo school. funny thing is, they said they had the standing advantage but the instructor also has black belts (or equivelant) in TKD and Muay Thai.


----------



## Shogun (Jul 13, 2005)

> Buy the gracie challenge tapes. Rorion's narration alone is worth the price.


definitely. and they are available on dvd now.


----------



## Bammx2 (Jul 14, 2005)

I feel that challenging someone in front of thier students is  not only disrespectful,but plain damn stupid!
 I mean....if you make a challenge like that,are you sure YOU are gonna win?!
  You may be prepared for the victory your arrogance is willing to "show" you....
  But are you prepared for the HUMILITY(and the fact you just got your a$$ handed to you in front of everyone you were trying to impress) that comes along with the reality your arrogance is dying to hand you?
  I started in the MA in the very early 70's...and yea,I have seen a challenge or two,,,,,,and some were funny as hell!


----------



## OC Kid (Jul 14, 2005)

I remember the dojo wars of the 70's. It was insane kung fu schools would challenge the karate schools and visa versa..Once in Vancouver Canada they even broke out the weapons, 3 sectional staffs, nunchuks sais ect Now2 that was wild. But looking back on it now it was all about money..who was going to teach in that area...

Still happens occasionally but now B/B are more like Ronin going from dojo to dojo on sparring night to test their skill so to speak against others.

Then there the common know it all..Stops by the school as a visitor then starts interupting the class with questions and comments like..."Isnt that technique called a XXX or why wouldnt you do it this way its more effective...ect ect...
But those folks are usually underbelts in some sytem.

Used to have a school next to a tavern in a small logging town in washington...occasionally the loggers would get drunk and come over and start something..that got to be a little crazy to.


----------



## searcher (Jul 14, 2005)

The problem is not whether it is ir-responsible or not, or about whether you will get sued.   In today's society if you beat the crap out of somebody, there is a great chance that they will return with a gun and shoot you.    It is crazy that it has come to this, but that is where we are at.


----------



## still learning (Jul 14, 2005)

Hello, Dojo challenges?  Sounds kinda of childish!  The person who makes the challenges needs to grow up.  and if it is accepted that person needs to grow up too!   

 The art of martial arts is not to fight but develop ones self to be a better person, humble and awareness.  We know what our art can do to someone who decides to cross that path.......endless.........Aloha


----------



## Jerry (Jul 15, 2005)

Another "yep, seen that happen" here.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jul 16, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> The problem is not whether it is ir-responsible or not, or about whether you will get sued. In today's society if you beat the crap out of somebody, there is a great chance that they will return with a gun and shoot you. It is crazy that it has come to this, but that is where we are at.


I've owned and operated a small dojang for three years and in that time, I received a challenge from a student of an established dojang in my area.  I'm not sure what the motivation was, I wasn't promoting myself or poaching students or anything.  

Anyway, the challenge came in the form of an unsolicited visit from the guy in his uniform.  He bowed and challenged me on the spot.  I declined and the guy persisted.  I threatened to call the police and then he left.

The very next day, a _kid_ at the school I was doing my student teaching, called me a coward to my face.  This kid happened to be a black belt student from the school in question.  I gave the kid a referral to the principal's office and visited him in detention that evening.  Earlier, I pulled a flyer for a tournament hosted by this larger school off of the wall and wrote, "I'll be here" on the bottom.  I told him that I was going to personally speak to his parents about the incident and then I gave him the flyer.

I entered the tournament a week later.  The original person who had challenged me was in my division.  We never fought each other.  He lost his second match and I fought the final match with a guy from a totally different school and lost by a slim margin.

After this, I haven't had much trouble.  Sure, the way I handled this situation wasn't the "macho" way, but I think it is the only responsible way to handle a "dojo" challenge.  There is no liability this way.  If a street punk came in and disrupted my class and wanted to fight, I would dismiss class and call the police.  I won't even bother with that ********.

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Tgace (Jul 16, 2005)

Excellent post. That was absolutely the best way to handle the situation.


----------



## searcher (Jul 16, 2005)

upnorthkyosa, this is the best info I have heard on this post.   You used your head and found a very honorable way to deal with the problem.   My hat is off to you.   A very excellent post.


----------



## Ceicei (Jul 18, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> After this, I haven't had much trouble. Sure, the way I handled this situation wasn't the "macho" way, but I think it is the only responsible way to handle a "dojo" challenge. There is no liability this way. If a street punk came in and disrupted my class and wanted to fight, I would dismiss class and call the police. I won't even bother with that ********.
> 
> upnorthkyosa


 :asian:  Well done, sir.

 - Ceicei


----------



## Ceicei (Jul 18, 2005)

(double post - sorry)


----------



## bignick (Jul 28, 2005)

Interestingly, a week or so ago, a judo friend of mine asked me if I had ever heard about the time that someone had challenged the the man that had started the tae kwon do school I go to.  Like I said, still no firsthand knowledge of the matter, but this was someone outside the organization who had no experience with my school whatsoever.  His version, by the way, was even more extraordinary than mine, with the version he heard having the challenger's heart stopped and revived at the hospital.


----------



## still learning (Jul 28, 2005)

Hello,  Just my thoughts.  People who make's the challenges need to grow up!

 There is no purpose or reward for this type of action.

 Maturity is earn by practice of being in the right mind.  By doing what is right!....Aloha


----------



## Grenadier (Jul 28, 2005)

Gah...  

These stories can sometimes be eerily similar to the Count Dante ones.  

Sadly enough, I'm willing to bet that some of these such challenges will also result in the same fate that happened to Keegan's (Count Dante) friend.  

Bottom line: If some blow hard comes to your dojo floor and issues a challenge, ask them to leave.  If they refuse to leave, call the police.  If they start attacking you, then you'd better defend yourself to the best of your ability, while someone else calls the police.  

Once the blow hards start their attacks, it's criminal assault.  As much as I hate to say this, many times, these blow hards could easily cause serious harm, or death, to you.  This is no different than if you were attacked on the street.  If it means having to resort to lethal means, then so be it.


----------



## Martialscientist (Jul 29, 2005)

May be someone alread wrote it.
Have any one seen "Game of Death II " 
basically young punks challanged masters all the time. Masters reserved the right to kill them, if they wanted to. Some did, some did not. If the punk won he would get a reputation, tittle and "respect"
Why people do it now, that's beyong me.


----------



## James Clifton (Apr 7, 2006)

When I did it it was in the 60's.I wasn't a puck,cocky,yeah but it was NEVER...done in the manner some have posted!! Never walked in a school & showed DISRESPECT!! It was ...a diff. time!! Yeah there were sprains,blood & hurts....noone pulled weapons...no broken bones ...noone died!!
Jim


----------



## Phil Elmore (Apr 7, 2006)

Today's dojo and kwoon challenges, for good or for ill, take place on the Internet far more often than in person (if _ever_, physically -- though the posts here obviously indicate that it does happen in real life from time to time).

When I published my first self-defense book, a former instructor (whose school I'd already left) came after me, not in person, but _online_.  The ensuing war of words promoted my book but did him no favors.  The only good thing about this "virtual challenge matching" is that nobody gets hurt.


----------



## HKphooey (Apr 7, 2006)

Here's  a thought... challenge them back to a kick-a-thon to raise money for a worthy cause.  

Energy spent in a more positve manner.


----------



## IcemanSK (Apr 7, 2006)

I've trained with a few different folks. Some braggards & some truly humble . Non of them had ever told "wars stories" of dojo wars....& I've asked. The closeest they came was at a kickboxing gym. We'd have neighborhood guys wanna spar to show how tough they were. They'd always pick on the 140 lbs. guy in the room. They didn't know he was an undefeated fighter w/ 50+ fights. They'd get a quick sparring lesson & a few became students.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 7, 2006)

My instructor loves to tell this story.  About every 3 months or so, somone would come in off the street and say they wanted to kick his ***.  Sensei Teter would point to my then 18 yr old wife and reply you have to get past her first.  No one ever took him up on it.  Don't really thing he would have let them though, but it did difuse the situation.

Jeff


----------



## bydand (Apr 7, 2006)

Sounds like Sensei Teter was a wise man.  Plus who really knows, I've trained with a few 18 year old women who could hand me my behind without breaking a sweat.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 7, 2006)

bydand said:
			
		

> Sounds like Sensei Teter was a wise man.  Plus who really knows, I've trained with a few 18 year old women who could hand me my behind without breaking a sweat.



I have no doubt that she would have come out on top.  Lord knows at 39, she can hand me my butt whenever she wants too!

Jeff


----------



## IcemanSK (Apr 7, 2006)

Chuck Norris tells the story (In both autobiographies) of a guy who came into his school, & sat down with a cheesed-off look on his face. He figured this guy wanted to "test him out." Chuck walked over, smiling extended his hand & intoduced himself. The guy's look melted away & they had a nice talk. I think if folks who look for a fight, receive kindness, rather than the fight they look for, their anger will mellow a bit. I think a lot of folks who want to fight, change their mind when a fight doesn't come.

my 2 cents


----------

