# Hapkido Techniques compared to Aikijujutsu/Aikido?



## Doomx2001

I was wondering if any of you have compared techniques from Hapkido to Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu and Aikido? Specifically what Hapkido moves are found in Aikijujutsu/Aikido, what moves are not, and what are their names in Japanese as well as Korean? Thanks for any help.


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## oftheherd1

I can't help you that much.  I saw two men demonstrate Aikijujutsu but it was about 20 years ago.  My recollection was that there were some similarities.

I have a co-worker who studied Aikido in the past.  He and I have discussed some techniques, many of which he had learned in Aikido.  Unfortunately, I don't know their names in either Korean or Japanese.  When I learned Hapkido, my GM used English names for all we did.

But you are asking a rather broad question that is hard to answer, since most practitioners, unless they have studied both systems, would not be likely to know what techniques are the same, unless they just stumbled onto something on the internet or in during a visit to the other system's schools.  And if I knew some, I would probably on be able to direct to youtube or something else on the internet.

Sorry if that isn't helpful to you.  But maybe you could narrow your question a little, or rephrase it?


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## iron_ox

To add to what was just said, why do you want to compare the two?


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## Doomx2001

iron_ox said:


> To add to what was just said, why do you want to compare the two?



The reason I want to compare the two is because Hapkido comes from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I wanted to see what GM Choi and his students changed Aiki techniques making Hapkido more distinct from Aikijujutsu until it became more of its own style. Also, most schools don't have names for the Hapkido techniques they teach, but rather number them. By comparing techniques to Aikijujutsu, I could research how they differ, how they are the same, and learn more of the history of the Korean martial art of Hapkido. The following is an example:

In Hapkido there is a technique where you twist the wrist to the outside to throw a person (although it is meant as a wrist break). According to Master Choe in his book 'The Korean Martial Art of Self Defense Hapkido', he refers to the technique as 'Boo-Chae' (fan). In Aikijujutsu/Aikido this is called Kotegaeshi.

Here is MuSool Hapkido wrist throw(Boo-Chae or as it is known in Hankido 'Gwan Jeol Gi Beop': 





Here is Aikido wrist throw (kotegaeshi):


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## iron_ox

Doomx2001 said:


> The reason I want to compare the two is because Hapkido comes from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I wanted to see what GM Choi and his students changed Aiki techniques making Hapkido more distinct from Aikijujutsu until it became more of its own style. Also, most schools don't have names for the Hapkido techniques they teach, but rather number them. By comparing techniques to Aikijujutsu, I could research how they differ, how they are the same, and learn more of the history of the Korean martial art of Hapkido. The following is an example:
> 
> In Hapkido there is a technique where you twist the wrist to the outside to throw a person (although it is meant as a wrist break). According to Master Choe in his book 'The Korean Martial Art of Self Defense Hapkido', he refers to the technique as 'Boo-Chae' (fan). In Aikijujutsu/Aikido this is called Kotegaeshi.
> 
> Here is MuSool Hapkido wrist throw(Boo-Chae or as it is known in Hankido 'Gwan Jeol Gi Beop':
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Aikido wrist throw (kotegaeshi):



Please don't take this the wrong way, but all of your sources here are going to give you false information about Hapkido.  I won't get into Choe.  You can find out quite a bit about him elsewhere, needless to say, stop buying his material.  And why are you selecting those two videos apparently randomly to compare Hapkido/Daito-Ryu.  Did you do any reading about the Hapkido organization?  From their own web site they are suspect.  And why not look for Daito-ryu video??  Aikido is quite different, even though its roots are DR.
I think what you are doing is noble, but comparing random Youtube videos is not really "research".  And comparing technique will not really give you any clues as to the History of the art.  
Now if you are independently wealthy, you could train with a student of Choi Dojunim, or at a dojang that is directly affiliated with him.  If not, then read all the material that is already out there relating to Choi Dojunim, continue to ask pertinent questions and remember that some people have worked a lifetime to accumulate knowledge and its not always a matter of regurgitating it verbatim in a forum...
Again, I'm not trying to be negative, but start with apples and apples if you want to do video work and see where that take you.





  This is interesting.  Start here.


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## Haakon

Hapkido as you would expect shares many techniques with Aikido since both are descendants of Aikijujutsu, and there are only so many ways to bend a joint. However you will probably find almost as much difference in exactly how techniques are done between Hapkido schools as you do between Hapkido/Aikido/Daito Ryu, especially if you use Youtube as as source where most videos are likely to be overly dramatic demo versions of the techniques. 

What I have found is that variations of Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo, Nikyo, Shihonage, Sankyo, Koshinage and Iriminage are all present in our Hapkido curriculum, we don't use Korean names for them. Those form the basis for many techniques in all 3 arts and the differences are variations on the techniques. Aikido for example seems to use the term Koshinage for any hip throw and Iriminage for a wide variety of 'clothesline' techniques. I'm sure there are many other common techniques, those are just core locks or throws that I've noticed are more or less the same. 

Someone else has done similar research for Aikido that you might be interested in, he found that 82% of Aikido correlates with Aikijutsu, I don't recall if it's Ok to link to other sites here so do a Google serach for *Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza *and you should find it. 

It's not a simple project, I don't think you can really do it justice with just Youtube and without experience in at least one of the styles. Get Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo, Korean Hapkido: Ancient Art of Masters and Hapkido by Kimm He Young and you'll have some good reference material to do something of a comparison, it won't be easy - it wasn't for me when I tried. I was doing it just out of curiosity and quickly discovered it's a much deeper project that I wanted to spend time on, at least for now.


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## oftheherd1

iron_ox said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, but all of your sources here are going to give you false information about Hapkido.  I won't get into Choe.  You can find out quite a bit about him elsewhere, *needless to say, stop buying his material.*  And why are you selecting those two videos apparently randomly to compare Hapkido/Daito-Ryu.  Did you do any reading about the Hapkido organization? * From their own web site they are suspect*
> ...



Could you elaborate on that a little please?


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## oftheherd1

Haakon said:


> Hapkido as you would expect shares many techniques with Aikido since both are descendants of Aikijujutsu, and there are only so many ways to bend a joint. *However you will probably find almost as much difference in exactly how techniques are done between Hapkido schools as you do between Hapkido/Aikido/Daito Ryu,* especially if you use Youtube as as source where most videos are likely to be overly dramatic demo versions of the techniques.
> 
> ...



I think that is true.  In fact, not all Hapkido seems to be called Hapkido.


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## iron_ox

oftheherd1 said:


> Could you elaborate on that a little please?



Hello OTH1,

Have you looked up Hui Son Choe?  Do that and you will see why I do not believe his material should even be for sale, let alone why anyone should buy it.

And if the OP wants to examine Hapkido vs. something else, it would be best done with a Hapkido group that actually does some Hapkido right?  The website for this group says this:
"MuSool HapKiDo is a system with roots in traditional HapKiDo  yet  remaining open to the evolution that all martial arts must undergo over   time. Through hard work, dedication, and lots of practice, the founders  of the  system were able to re-discover theories and principles that  work as a complete  system, but still complemented other styles. 
 			Our system lays no claim to specific techniques. It is NOT a  new  martial art, nor is it a new style of HapKiDo. In fact, many of the   techniques used in MuSool HapKiDo can be found in martial art styles all  over  the world."

Hmmmmm.

Just my thoughts.


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## iron_ox

oftheherd1 said:


> I think that is true.  In fact, not all Hapkido seems to be called Hapkido.



Seems true, as true as most "Hapkido" isn't Hapkido...


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## oftheherd1

iron_ox said:


> Hello OTH1,
> 
> Have you looked up Hui Son Choe?  Do that and you will see why I do not believe his material should even be for sale, let alone why anyone should buy it.
> 
> And if the OP wants to examine Hapkido vs. something else, it would be best done with a Hapkido group that actually does some Hapkido right?  The website for this group says this:
> "MuSool HapKiDo is a system with roots in traditional HapKiDo  yet  remaining open to the evolution that all martial arts must undergo over   time. Through hard work, dedication, and lots of practice, the founders  of the  system were able to re-discover theories and principles that  work as a complete  system, but still complemented other styles.
> Our system lays no claim to specific techniques. It is NOT a  new  martial art, nor is it a new style of HapKiDo. In fact, many of the   techniques used in MuSool HapKiDo can be found in martial art styles all  over  the world."
> 
> Hmmmmm.
> 
> Just my thoughts.



Can't argue with your post.  I think I see the disconnect I thought I saw.  The OP mentioned Choi, which I took to mean Choi Yong Sul.  You are talking about Choe Hui Son.  I don't know where I missed the connection, or lack of it.  I don't recall hearing about Choe Hui Son.  Actually, I am not big on the entire history of Hapkido and its variations.  I know my GM's teaching, and accepted his teaching.  Only after I returned to the USA did I begin to realize there were divisions and off-shoots.  And it has only been in the last few years that I learned that not all of what calls itself Hapkido get along with each other, or even recognize the legitimacy of each other.

So I guess I would also agree that not all of what calls itself Hapkido is Hapkido, although some schools may have descended from from Hapkido.  And I certainly agree that the OP's best chance would be to personally study both the arts he wishes to compare, or collect some practitioners from each to demonstrate.  Neither option is terribly practical.


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## iron_ox

oftheherd1 said:


> Can't argue with your post.  I think I see the disconnect I thought I saw.  The OP mentioned Choi, which I took to mean Choi Yong Sul.  You are talking about Choe Hui Son.  I don't know where I missed the connection, or lack of it.  I don't recall hearing about Choe Hui Son.  Actually, I am not big on the entire history of Hapkido and its variations.  I know my GM's teaching, and accepted his teaching.  Only after I returned to the USA did I begin to realize there were divisions and off-shoots.  And it has only been in the last few years that I learned that not all of what calls itself Hapkido get along with each other, or even recognize the legitimacy of each other.
> 
> So I guess I would also agree that not all of what calls itself Hapkido is Hapkido, although some schools may have descended from from Hapkido.  And I certainly agree that the OP's best chance would be to personally study both the arts he wishes to compare, or collect some practitioners from each to demonstrate.  Neither option is terribly practical.



Choe Hui Son was sent to prison for manslaughter, yet his organization kept selling all his materials, and still does without a single word about remunerating the victims family.  He has nothing to do with Hapkido politics, but have always been curious as to why his material is still for sale through his organization.

As far as getting along or recognizing legitimacy, I think it is an interesting question.  No one claimed being the Founder of Hapkido until after Choi Dojunim's death, then lots of of people made many claims as to standing and rank.  I don't think anyone thought that information would be this available as it is now in an instant, but now the the veracity of most of these claims can be tested, and many have been proven false.

In my opinion, it is important to recognize Choi Dojunim as Hapkido's single Founder, and all those that chose to add whatever they have as variants.  An unpopular opinion.

Many schools have descended from Hapkido, and to give credit where it is due, many are great instructors, but the standing in the art is another matter altogether.

Like I said, the OP has his heart in the right place, but instead of undertaking to compare apples to oranges, he should find a Hapkido school as close to the root as he can and start with that study.

Good discussion.


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## Doomx2001

The reason I referenced Choe's book, is because it happened to be close by, and it actually has names for the techniques which most Hapkido styles do not. I'm not interested in the feelings or the politics or anything relating to what Choe did, again, I just used material in his book as a quick example. 
I was asked to elaborate better as to what I was asking everyone. So quickly, after searching youtube for about 10 minutes, I finally found a Hapkido video that matches Kotegaeshi (which is hard to do becasue you can't find too many Hapkido techniques by name on Youtube for reasons explained earlier.) So that, in the end, everyone got an idea of what I was asking them.

As far as comparing Aikido and Aikijujutsu to Hapkido, well, you really can't find a detailed curriuculum on Aikijujutsu on the net (at least one that is reliable to Sokaku Takeda's school), and in saying that, Aikido, as it is very similular, but soft, has many videos and many websites that go in depth on the techniques. Most Daito Ryu videos cover the same material, and are usually quick demonstrations. 

If anyone has a detailed list of techniques of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, that would be preferable, and most appreicated. 

As far as finding info on Choi Yong Sul, there is alot out there, but it is all regerated info that says the exact same thing.
Thank you everybody for taking the time to respond. 


  - Brian




iron_ox said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, but all of your sources here are going to give you false information about Hapkido.  I won't get into Choe.  You can find out quite a bit about him elsewhere, needless to say, stop buying his material.  And why are you selecting those two videos apparently randomly to compare Hapkido/Daito-Ryu.  Did you do any reading about the Hapkido organization?  From their own web site they are suspect.  And why not look for Daito-ryu video??  Aikido is quite different, even though its roots are DR.
> I think what you are doing is noble, but comparing random Youtube videos is not really "research".  And comparing technique will not really give you any clues as to the History of the art.
> Now if you are independently wealthy, you could train with a student of Choi Dojunim, or at a dojang that is directly affiliated with him.  If not, then read all the material that is already out there relating to Choi Dojunim, continue to ask pertinent questions and remember that some people have worked a lifetime to accumulate knowledge and its not always a matter of regurgitating it verbatim in a forum...
> Again, I'm not trying to be negative, but start with apples and apples if you want to do video work and see where that take you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting.  Start here.


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## Doomx2001

I may make a list sometime to see what you all think if no one else has anything constructive to contribute.


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## Instructor

Nothing constructive here but I am interested in your project, I hope you will keep us informed of your progress.


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## iron_ox

Hello all,

Doom, what is it that you are trying to see with this project?


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## Instructor

I am not sure what Doom is after but I have to admit it's a compelling topic.  I would like to learn more about it too but geesh, where to start?


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## Hap

This is an interesting thread.  I have practiced Aikido for many years and just recently started Hapkido.  I have also trained and examined DR techniques through out the time I was training in Aikido.  One thing that is of note is how the Aikido techniques have changed from pre- WW2 (Aikibudo) to post WW2 and even over the years I have trained.  Versions of Aikido such as Yoshinkan are very close to DR.  And even the Iwama style of Aikido is more combative than the traditional style of Aikido that is taught in many dojos.  

What I find fascinating are the similarities in techniques across all the three arts and yet how different they are.  Even though all the arts have what appear to be the standard set of classical jujutsu techniques (omitting BJJ because I have no experience in it) the way they are taught and the focus on how they are taught is different.  

The previously posted shihonage video is a good example of this.  Ironically, the way it is shown in the video is how I was originally taught the technique in Aikido some 20 years ago.  It started with a sword kata then went to empty hand.  a lot of time was spent explaining how dangerous the technique is.  The reason for the explanation was to prevent injury, not to give someone knowledge on how to hurt a person.  Regretfully, Aikido does not show the connection between the sword techniques and the empty hand techniques as the main focus of the training.  By saying this I am not saying every dojo or sensei does this.  I am sure there are places that go into great detail about the relationship between sword technique and empty hand.  In my experience, i have seen a decline in this practice.  Traditional Aikido has weapon katas that are the weapons version of the empty hand techniques.  While other styles of Aikido created their own weapons katas that have little or no relation to the empty hand techniques.  

With Hapkido I can say I have learned the technique without the sword explanation.  However, unlike DR or Aikido this technique was introduced to me as a defense to a knife attack.  Usually defending against knife attacks was seen as a more advanced form of training.  Students would start off learning this technique from a grab.  It would appear that Hapkido is demonstrating a more combat orientated approach to their training not really seen in Aikido.   But here my knowledge and exposure is extremely limited as I have just begun to train in this art.  I am sure one of the more experienced practitioners of Hapkido will weigh in and shed light on training techniques and emphasis.  From what I have read in Hapkido books there is a great deal of emphasis on Hapki and the explanations seem more similar between DR and Hapkido rather than Aikido.  Yet, DR is really in a league of its own even in the Koryu circles.   

For me it is not so much the similarities in techniques but the differences in training focus that distinguishes the uniqueness and ultimately the effectiveness of the arts.


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## oftheherd1

Hap - thanks for your post.  You might want go to the Meet and Greet sub-forum and introduce yourself.

I would be very interested in your insights to differences or similarities between Aikido and Hapkido as you continue to train.

As to the video, I guess you are referring to the sword technique portion?  Knife techniques were a more advanced set of techniques, being taught at the red belt level when I began studying.  I understand the Korean Hapkido Association has since moved it to somewhere between 1st and 2nd dan instruction.  However, I can't think of any grab defense that transitioned into a knife defense.  I will have think on that more.  Mind you, we do usually grab the knife hand, but I don't recall a grab defense that would begin it.  It was to deflect and control the knife hand, or apply something like a hammer lock.

I need to think on that more.  I may have missed the connection.  Thanks for your insights.


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## Doomx2001

iron_ox said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Doom, what is it that you are trying to see with this project?



Well, a little bit of everything actually. The biggest reason I would say is for my own historical curiosity.  Choi Yong Sul learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu in Japan for decades. He comes back to his native Korea teaching what he learned. All the accounts that I've read about GM Choi is that his Hapkido was very brutal and straight forward. I read one story that stated that when Sokaku Takeda wanted to shame a student who was a little to 'full of themselves', he would have Choi spar with his class mate. Choi was said to have been very good at sparring. And of course he would defeat his opponent. The shame came not so much from the defeat, but rather a Japanese being defeated by a Korean. 

Anyway, I would imagine that Choi's version Daito ryu would differ greatly because I get the sense that he may have sparred alot, shaping the way he did techniques differently from how he was taught through trial and error in sparring matches. Possibly creating something very effective and straight forward that we see some Hapkido styles today. This is just a theory, but one I think is worth looking into. 

Also, I would think that Daito ryu Aikijujutsu may have changed since the passing of Sokaku Takeda. But I have no proof to really go on this one either. But, GM Choi's Hapkido may be more closer to what Takeda taught than what is being taught as Daito ryu today. As far as I can tell, Aikido and Aikijujutsu are looking more and more alike. 

Also there are Hapkido techniques that I am trying to master, and by studying the source art (Daito ryu) I can get a better idea of how the techniques are done in Japan, and how they differ in Hapkido, and maybe figure out why the techniques changed here and there as well as learn different ways of doing the same technique. Of course, I understand that techniques vary teacher to teacher, but some techniques remain the same regardless of Hapkido style. 
I would to mention as well, I would like to learn the Japanese names to the same techniques found in Hapkido as most Hapkido styles don't have names for many of their techniques. I learn better by names or giving techniques names rather than saying ' here is technique #1, now here is #2,..' and so on. 

But, anyway, it all about learning, and growing as a martial artist. Also, honoring the memory of GM Choi and the other marital art giants from that time period. I want to preserve history as well as do research into Hapkido's roots that wouldn't just benefit myself, but anyone who would be interested. I appreciate all the comments and thoughts so far.

My 'research' is hopefully received in good spirit for which it is intended.


 -  Brian (or Doom)


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## oftheherd1

Doomx2001 said:


> Well, a little bit of everything actually. The biggest reason I would say is for my own historical curiosity. Choi Yong Sul learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu in Japan for decades. He comes back to his native Korea teaching what he learned. All the accounts that I've read about GM Choi is that his *Hapkido was very brutal and straight forward*. I read one story that stated that when Sokaku Takeda wanted to shame a student who was a little to 'full of themselves', he would have Choi spar with his class mate. Choi was said to have been very good at sparring. And of course he would defeat his opponent. The shame came not so much from the defeat, but rather a Japanese being defeated by a Korean.
> 
> Anyway, I would imagine that Choi's version Daito ryu would differ greatly because I get the sense that he may have sparred alot, shaping the way he did techniques differently from how he was taught through trial and error in sparring matches. Possibly creating something very effective and straight forward that we see some Hapkido styles today. This is just a theory, but one I think is worth looking into.
> 
> Also, I would think that Daito ryu Aikijujutsu may have changed since the passing of Sokaku Takeda. But I have no proof to really go on this one either. But, GM Choi's Hapkido may be more closer to what Takeda taught than what is being taught as Daito ryu today. As far as I can tell, Aikido and Aikijujutsu are looking more and more alike.
> 
> *Also there are Hapkido techniques that I am trying to master, and by studying the source art (Daito ryu) I can get a better idea of how the techniques are done in Japan, and how they differ in Hapkido, and maybe figure out why the techniques changed here and there as well as learn different ways of doing the same technique. Of course, I understand that techniques vary teacher to teacher, but some techniques remain the same regardless of Hapkido style.*
> I would to mention as well, I would like to learn the Japanese names to the same techniques found in *Hapkido as most Hapkido styles don't have names for many of their techniques.* I learn better by names or giving techniques names rather than saying ' here is technique #1, now here is #2,..' and so on.
> 
> But, anyway, it all about learning, and growing as a martial artist. Also, honoring the memory of GM Choi and the other marital art giants from that time period. I want to preserve history as well as do research into Hapkido's roots that wouldn't just benefit myself, but anyone who would be interested. I appreciate all the comments and thoughts so far.
> 
> My 'research' is hopefully received in good spirit for which it is intended.
> 
> 
> - Brian (or Doom)



Concerning bolded portions:

FWIW I think you will find Hapkido is brutal in that it doesn't seek to avoid harming the opponent, in fact, generally the opposite.  At least the Hapkido I learned is that way.  Sort of 'I didn't want to do this to begin with, and I don't want to do it again'.

If you want to study DaiIto Ryu, that is you business.  But from my experience, that is not necessary for the learning of Hapkido.  Nor would I think, learning any other MA that may have ancestry from another identifiable MA.  A MA being taught, should stand well on its own teaching.  I would think it more likely that you would either confuse yourself, or slow yourself down unnecessarily.  You don't mention, but are you studying Hapkido formally, or just trying to grab a technique here and there?

In the Hapkido I studied, on a military installation, time was preceious.  My GM had long ago gone to using English rather than trying to teach Korean as well as Hapkido.  However, it followed the Korean example of Yellow Belt Punch Block #1, Blue Belt Kick Block #5, etc.  Perhaps if you substitute such a description it will be easier for you.  If there are Hapkido schools that only use numbers, I guess it is that teacher's choice to do.  I actually know very little about other Hapkido schools, as I only studied under my GM.  It would seem strange to try to do it any other way than what I mentioned.

As a further comment, if you are indeed only trying to grab a technique here and there, I sure wouldn't stress too much over it.  Learn it and move on.  Why worry about where it came from outside of Hapkido if you aren't a serious student of Hapkido.  If you are a serious student of Hapkido, ask your teacher.  But learn what your teacher teaches about the techniques, no matter where they may have originated from.  Many MA have borrowed things that seemed very useful from other MA (and why not), starting back from a very long time ago.


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## Doomx2001

Many times when I ask a martial art related topic on the internet, the remark that usually follows is, "_ask your teacher_". But thing is, I have. Many times, when I see that remark, I bite my lip. Instead I choose to write long, loving, flowery paragraphs to explain my position better, But not this time. I'm a little offended at the idea that somehow, I'm being disrepectful to my teacher by asking questions, and by the idea that I'm not a serious student of Hapkido by researching what came before it. When you or anyone says things like that, not only does it shut down a good discussion, but is disrespectful. 

And the reason I am 'worried', as you say, about the origins of Hapkido is because I am a serious student of Hapkido. I learn what I'm taught, I ask question about what I'm taught and why I'm taught it. And I might like to know more of the history and origins of the art before that knowledge is lost as more students of GM Choi passes away. 

I'm not disrespecting my teacher by asking questions outside of his dojang. One would think the hallmark of good student is one that 'asks questions'.  The fact is, nobody's teacher has all the answers, and all of my instructors would admit that. That's why we get on message boards like Martial Talk to ask questions, debate, have discussions, and share knowledge. For if not, why are we here?
To often I see people more interested in stroking each others egos rather than healthy debate.

Anyway, thats all I want here, honestly, is healthy discussion on Hapkido. And not to be criticized just for asking questions. Though the offense may not have been intended, it left a bad taste in my mouth regardless. 

Is Daito ryu neccessary to study as your learning Hapkido, no, far from it. As we know, Hapkido stands on its own. But, for someone like me, I have question's, I love learning the history of martial arts, all martial arts. 

To me, I see nothing wrong with studying the roots of Hapkido because I can only benefit from it. The three things I want to learn is: more of the history/roots of Hapkido, roots of Hapkido techniques, and how they differ from Daito ryu.

For a quick comparison, the Okinawan's who created Karate by blending their native arts with Chinese methods, they would actually travel to southern China to gain a better understand of what aspects of their art comes from, how it differs, and what they can walk away with from what they learned. Also the Okinawans studied a book called the Bubishi  (a Chinese book about White Crane, Monk fist, pressure points, and herbal medicines).  
Also, I would point out, that there many deciated Aikido practioners who have studied Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu for the same reason as listed above. They often find that Daito ryu is more of a devasting style in the beginning whereas Aikido does nothing like that. And it raises health questions about Aikido, and improves their understanding of Aikido.

Anyway, for anyone still interested in this discussion here are a few points of interest listed below:

I do understand that there are Daito Ryu techniques that seek not to harm your opponent and that Hapkido is more concerned with ending the fight quickly and with devastating results. I love that about Hapkido.
*Which also goes into the idea that GM Choi changed Daito Ryu into a more street effective style as concerned with the unarmed techniques as compared to Daito Ryu? *

Here are a few interesting questions:

** When Choi developed Hapkido, was he the one that incorparated Judo techniques into the curriculum or was it one of his students that came later?*

   I've heard it said that his first student was a black belt in Judo, and that the two of them worked out defenses against Judo style throws. But, interesting to note, even if GM Choi never introduce Judo throws into his curriculum, those who presumably added later changed the throws in such a way that it brought back the Judo throws to more of their Jujutsu roots. Example: In many Hapkido Judo style throws the arm that is used as a 'lever' is locked as you throw your opponent, and you don't let go as your opponent hits the ground. Compare that to the same throws in Judo, the arms are often not locked, and you let go of your partner as he falls. 
The philosophy as I understand it is this: In Hapkido, after they break and tear you joints to hell, they just discard the body with a judo technique or anther way of looking at it, is if a technique feel to break the joint, you can turn it into a judo throw and since the elbow may already be locked it makes for a more devastating throw.

** I've heard said that GM Choi spoke very little Korean, and when he did he spoke in a Japanese accent. This to me would explain why in many Hapkido schools, techniques are often referred by number and not name. *
Also it would explain why no two Hapkido schools have names for their techniques often differ from one another. 

 To me it is easier to go over techniques with names rather than by number. An example would be if the instructor said do Omote Gyaku. And I would know that is a outside wrist twist. He could call out Omote Gyaku wrist grab, Omote Gyaku from a punch, Omote Gyaku from a clothing grab...etc. To me that is easier for me personally to learn. 

** Could 'Break-Aways' be originally intended as defense not just against other Hapkido practictioners, but also against Judo practictioners since Judo often grabs the hand, wrist, and elbow as fulcrum in their throws? *
Does Daito Ryu teach break aways as it relates to this debate?

** What were some of the Hand strikes that GM Choi taught?*
I know he taught kicks, but not the ones we see today. The kick he taught were aimed at the groin, the feet, the knees, the back of the knees, side of the leg, the thighs, basically the lower half of the body. But, what were the hand strikes? I would be qurious and appreciative for a list. 


But anyway, this is but a few question I have concerning Gm Choi and origins of Hapkido. 
I just want people to know that the questions I have posed are my theories or opinions and to not get offended. 
Its all healthy debate in which two sides share ideas to come to the logical truth. 
Also I am a student of the World JunTong Moosul Hapkido, Huek Choo Kwan Hapkido, and Bujinkan Budo Taijutus. The reason I list that so I everyone will have better understanding of what my martial art background is. 

Also, I've been training in martial arts for about 10 years now. Personally, I enjoy learning all martial arts. In seeing merit in everything. By asking these questions, I think we all will benefit from it as we might find some answers that we can share with like minded individuals instead of saying, '_ I don't know_'.


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## Royers

Doomx2001 said:


> Well, a little bit of everything actually. The biggest reason I would say is for my own historical curiosity. Choi Yong Sul learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu in Japan for decades. He comes back to his native Korea teaching what he learned. All the accounts that I've read about GM Choi is that his Hapkido was very brutal and straight forward. I read one story that stated that when Sokaku Takeda wanted to shame a student who was a little to 'full of themselves', he would have Choi spar with his class mate. Choi was said to have been very good at sparring. And of course he would defeat his opponent. The shame came not so much from the defeat, but rather a Japanese being defeated by a Korean.
> 
> Anyway, I would imagine that Choi's version Daito ryu would differ greatly because I get the sense that he may have sparred alot, shaping the way he did techniques differently from how he was taught through trial and error in sparring matches. Possibly creating something very effective and straight forward that we see some Hapkido styles today. This is just a theory, but one I think is worth looking into.
> 
> Also, I would think that Daito ryu Aikijujutsu may have changed since the passing of Sokaku Takeda. But I have no proof to really go on this one either. But, GM Choi's Hapkido may be more closer to what Takeda taught than what is being taught as Daito ryu today. As far as I can tell, Aikido and Aikijujutsu are looking more and more alike.
> 
> Also there are Hapkido techniques that I am trying to master, and by studying the source art (Daito ryu) I can get a better idea of how the techniques are done in Japan, and how they differ in Hapkido, and maybe figure out why the techniques changed here and there as well as learn different ways of doing the same technique. Of course, I understand that techniques vary teacher to teacher, but some techniques remain the same regardless of Hapkido style.
> I would to mention as well, I would like to learn the Japanese names to the same techniques found in Hapkido as most Hapkido styles don't have names for many of their techniques. *I learn better by names or giving techniques names rather than saying ' here is technique #1, now here is #2,..' and so on.
> 
> *But, anyway, it all about learning, and growing as a martial artist. Also, honoring the memory of GM Choi and the other marital art giants from that time period. I want to preserve history as well as do research into Hapkido's roots that wouldn't just benefit myself, but anyone who would be interested. I appreciate all the comments and thoughts so far.
> 
> My 'research' is hopefully received in good spirit for which it is intended.
> 
> 
> - Brian (or Doom)



I also wish that Hapkido used more names for techniques.  In my lineage there aren't many names used for techniques.  It's typically taught more along the lines of "here are the 20 joint locks, and throws covered in this keub".  There are names to the techniques somewhere in an instructor's syllabus, but they're often very abstract (or unnecessarily long) and no more use than just remembering them in numerical order.  

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Aikido and DRAJJ use a similar numbering for at least a portion of their techniques don't they?  Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo..... Don't they just translate to first technique, second technique, third technique....?

I look forward to the results of your research and hope you keep us all posted.


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## SuperFLY

Royers said:


> Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Aikido and DRAJJ use a  similar numbering for at least a portion of their techniques don't they?   Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo..... Don't they just translate to first  technique, second technique, third technique....?


pretty much yes.

after that though the names differ. kotegaeshi, shihonage, etc.. bit more descriptive.

then the differences in grips/forms are just known as 1st form, 2nd form etc.. at least in my school.


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## Royers

SuperFLY said:


> pretty much yes.
> 
> after that though the names differ. kotegaeshi, shihonage, etc.. bit more descriptive.
> 
> then the differences in grips/forms are just known as 1st form, 2nd form etc.. at least in my school.



Ah.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I've only been to a couple of Aikido classes myself, but I seemed to remember that.  I really wish we could have something like this for easy and quick reference that every Hapkido-in could read and instantly understand....

http://www.usaikifed.com/static/images/USAF_09_test_req_4.3.pdf


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## Doomx2001

Royers said:


> Ah.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I've only been to a couple of Aikido classes myself, but I seemed to remember that.  I really wish we could have something like this for easy and quick reference that every Hapkido-in could read and instantly understand....
> 
> http://www.usaikifed.com/static/images/USAF_09_test_req_4.3.pdf



You know, that is one thing that I could do easily is come up with a list of known Korean names and terms for techniques that I've either heard, found, or trained in.  Give me a couple of days, and I'll add that list here.


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## Instructor

Royers said:


> I also wish that Hapkido used more names for techniques.  In my lineage there aren't many names used for techniques.  It's typically taught more along the lines of "here are the 20 joint locks, and throws covered in this keub".  There are names to the techniques somewhere in an instructor's syllabus, but they're often very abstract (or unnecessarily long) and no more use than just remembering them in numerical order.
> 
> Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Aikido and DRAJJ use a similar numbering for at least a portion of their techniques don't they?  Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo..... Don't they just translate to first technique, second technique, third technique....?
> 
> I look forward to the results of your research and hope you keep us all posted.



When they created the THA curriculum out of earlier efforts they felt the same way, all of our techniques have names. It makes them much easier to remember and reference.


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## Royers

Doomx2001 said:


> You know, that is one thing that I could do easily is come up with a list of known Korean names and terms for techniques that I've either heard, found, or trained in.  Give me a couple of days, and I'll add that list here.



I'd be really interested in seeing that.


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## Doomx2001

Here is a quick list of all the names that I can think of or quickly research for techniques found in most Hapkido schools. Also, I have given english nicknames that I've come up with over the years that took me a while to think up over the years for some of these techniques to help corralate everything.

 Its also worth mentioning that I use WHA's termanology alot as it is one of the few Hapkido styles that has names for their core techniques. 
The same can be said also for Hankido. Hankido is a blend of Hapkido and Aikido. 
The video examples that I list are the best that I can find at the moment. 
Also, most Hapkido videos demonstrate a series of techniques rather than a one technique spotlight which is why you will find so few videos listed here. 

Click the names of techniques (or martial art styles) to see video of the corresponding techniques. 
I will list the names of Japanese counterparts for the Hapkido techniques that I know. 

And finally, 





Hapkido techniques termanology: 



_ Outside Wrist twist lock throw_
*
Gwan Jeol Gi Beop*     (Joint locking method)                        Hankido 
*Kwanjulki Bub*           (Joint locking method ) alt. spelling       Hankido
*Boo Chae*                 (Fan)                                              World Hapkido Association
*Son Mok Su #4*          (Wrist Technique)                             Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido
Gongkwon Yusul
Sin Moo Hapkido

Japanese _Equivalent -  Kotegaeshi (Aikido)  /  Omote Kote Gyaku  (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu)_ 



Corkscrew wrist lock throw
*
Yock Boo Chae*          (Reverse Fan)                             World Hapkido Association
*Son Mok Su #5*          (Wrist Technique)                        Jung Ki Kwan



_4 Direction Throw_ across body (omote/outside)


*Hei Jun*                      (Rotation)                                  World Hapkido Association

Japanese _Equivalent -  katae dori Shionage_ omote (Aikido)




4 Direction Throw inside (ura/inside)

*Yock Hei Jun*                      (Reverse Rotation)                       World Hapkido Association

Japanese _Equivalent      -   _katae dori Shionage ura  (Aikido)


The Vine or Elbow pointed north lock

*Yun Hang* or *Yung Hang*       (Arrest)                                   World Hapkido Association
*Nae We Gi Beop*                   (Inside Outside method)             Hankido

Japanese _Equivalent     -         Sankyo  (Aikido)    Sankajo  (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)_



Knifehand Armbar

*Pal Kum Chi*                            (Elbow)                                 World Hapkido Association
Sin Moo Hapkido

Japanese _Equivalent   -   Ikkyo (Aikido)  Ikkajo  (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)  _



Devil Horns Wrist Lock or S-Lock

*Son Mok Kuk Gi*                (Wrist Manipulation)                       World Hapkido Association

Japanese _Equivalent    -    Nikyo(Aikido)  Nikajo (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)_



Head over Heels throw

Hwe Jeon Tu Beop      -   (turn around throwing method)              Hankido




Whipthrow  (acrossbody)

*Batjul dun chi gi*                     (rope throw)                                      My translation
International Hapkido Alliance?
Jin Jung Kwan Hapkido


Police Lock

?                                  (?)                                                               Sin Moo Hapkido  


To be continued................



finally notes:
Below is a video of GM In Hyuk Suh doing Son Mok Soo (wrist techniques) 1-11
Here are the nicknames I came up with for the techniques. By giving these techniques names it helped me learn better and communicate with classmates about what we were doing (whipthrow from a punch, whipthrow from wrist grab, whipthrow from defensive position...etc).

Here is the list:

1. Knifehand Armbar (some people already use this)
2. Palm up lock (crappy name I know)
3. Inside Whipthrow
4. Police Lock
5. Hip throw
6. Reverse Hip throw
7. Otoshi varation elbow break (?)
8. Head over Heels throw
9. Shionage
10. Lock & Drop
11. Devil Horns Wrist Lock


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## Royers

This is an awesome post Doom.  Surprising amount of work in a few hours.  I have seen these techniques in my lineage as well, but not all are referred to by a name regularly.  The syllabus is a little guarded.  The ones that stand out to me are the elbow press (arm bar) which we refer to as Kalakki, the outside wrist lock (break/throw) we refer to as Goki, and the Whipthrow (a lock/throw I'm very familiar with) which is taught earlier in curriculum for us from a same side wrist grab we refer to as Nae Hae Jin.  I'm only a year into this school, and Hapkido in general, so this is something I'm still fairly green in but I will continue to research myself as our history is also a great interest of mine.  I definitely appreciate your work on this and look forward to more.


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## oftheherd1

Thanks Doomx2001.  I enjoyed watching those.  Interesting to me was several that showed an arm bar were different from what I learned.  We learned to keep the hand close to our chest, and to strike the forearm about three fingers above the elbow, where there are a lot of nerves

Also, I was impressed by the technique of bending the wrist backwards up in the air.  I was taught to hold it close to the waist as it seems to give better leverage that way, sort of sliding up the waist.  Seems to take less force against the wrist.  That is where the wrist has its greatest strength, inward towards the inner part of the arm.  Still, with surprise and your on constantly practiced strength, one can indeed to things that in slow motion would not work.

Thanks again.  I need to back over some of those and learn them.


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## Doomx2001

Do you know what Kalakki, Goki, and Nae Hae Jin translates into? I'll add these to the list as well.Thanks for the encouragement.


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## oftheherd1

Doomx2001 said:


> Do you know what Kalakki, Goki, and Nae Hae Jin translates into? I'll add these to the list as well.Thanks for the encouragement.



Sorry, I don't.  I can ask my wife but she may not either, between spelling differences between different English transliterations, and some techniques being a little cryptic on occassion.  But I will ask.  If I have time I may try looking them up in Kimm's book as well.


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## Royers

Doomx2001 said:


> Do you know what Kalakki, Goki, and Nae Hae Jin translates into? I'll add these to the list as well.Thanks for the encouragement.



I'm not any help either.  I'm pretty sure there are descriptions in english, but they're not referenced.  I'll ask.


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## Doomx2001

Updated/Revised: Wednesday, August 8th

(I guess whenever I get done figuring this stuff out, I'll eventually start a new thread so people can see the finished, easily read, version)


Hapkido techniques termanology: 



_ Outside Wrist twist lock throw_
*
Gwan Jeol Gi Beop*     (Joint locking method)                        Hankido 
*Kwanjulki Bub*           (Joint locking method ) alt. spelling       Hankido
*Boo Chae*                 (Fan)                                              World Hapkido Association
*Son Mok Su #4*          (Wrist Technique)                             Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido
Gongkwon Yusul
Sin Moo Hapkido
Kuk Sool Won

Japanese _Equivalent -  Kotegaeshi (Aikido)  /  Omote Kote Gyaku  (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu)_ 



Corkscrew wrist lock throw
*
Yock Boo Chae*          (Reverse Fan)                             World Hapkido Association
*Son Mok Su #5*          (Wrist Technique)                        Jung Ki Kwan
*Son Mok Soo #2* (Wrist Technique) Kuk Sool Won



_4 Direction Throw_ across body (omote/outside)


*Hei Jun*                      (Rotation)                                  World Hapkido Association
Kuk Sool Won

Japanese _Equivalent -  katae dori Shionage_ omote (Aikido)




4 Direction Throw inside (ura/inside)

*Yock Hei Jun*                      (Reverse Rotation)                       World Hapkido Association

Japanese _Equivalent      -   _katae dori Shionage ura  (Aikido)




The Vine or Elbow pointed north lock

*Yun Hang* or *Yung Hang*       (Arrest)                                   World Hapkido Association
*Nae We Gi Beop*                   (Inside Outside method)             Hankido

Japanese _Equivalent     -         Sankyo  (Aikido)    Sankajo  (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)_




Knifehand Armbar

*Pal Kum Chi*                            (Elbow)                                 World Hapkido Association
*Sin Moo Hapkido
Kuk Sool Won
*Kuk Sool Won
Japanese _Equivalent   -   Ikkyo (Aikido)  Ikkajo  (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)  _





Devil Horns Wrist Lock or S-Lock

*Son Mok Kuk Gi*                (Wrist Manipulation)                       World Hapkido Association
Kuk Sool Won

Japanese _Equivalent    -    Nikyo(Aikido)  Nikajo (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)_





Head over Heels throw

*Hwe Jeon Tu Beop*      -   (turn around throwing method)              Hankido
Kuk Sool Won

Japanese _Equivalent    -_ Katatetori Kaitenage Uchi (Aikido)  Hiza Guruma (Judo)




Whipthrow  (acrossbody)

*Batjul dun chi gi*                     (rope throw)                                      My translation
*International Hapkido Alliance?
Jin Jung Kwan Hapkido
*
         Japanese _Equivalent    -_ 'Shomen Uchi' Yonkyo (Aikido)





Whipthrow (ura/inside)
*
Kuk Sool Won*

Japanese _Equivalent    -_ 'Shomen Uchi' Yonkyo (Aikido)




Police Lock

?                                  (?)                                                              * Sin Moo Hapkido  
Kuk Sool Won*

Japanese _Equivalent    -_



Hip Throw
*
Kuk Sool Won*   (notice how the arm is 'locked' in Hapkido, but not in Judo)

Japanese _Equivalent    -_ Koshi Waza O Goshi (Judo)



Reverse Hip Throw

*Kuk Sool Won*   (the arm is 'locked' in Hapkido, but not in Judo. And entering methods are different)

Japanese _Equivalent    -_ Uki Goshi (Judo)




Elbow Lock Otoshi varation

*Kuk Sool Won
*(notice how the arm is 'locked' in Hapkido, but not in Judo)

Japanese _Equivalent    - _Ippon Seoi Nage (Judo)





Lock and Drop

Kuk Sool Won

Japanese _Equivalent    -_




Shoulder Lock

Kuk Sool Won

Japanese _Equivalent    -_



Leg Sweep

Kuk Sool Won

Japanese _Equivalent    - _O Soto Gari (Judo)





Head Twist

Kuk Sool Won

Japanese _Equivalent    -_


To be continued................


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## zDom

Doomx2001 said:


> _ Outside Wrist twist lock throw_
> *
> Gwan Jeol Gi Beop*     (Joint locking method)                        Hankido
> *Kwanjulki Bub*           (Joint locking method ) alt. spelling       Hankido
> *Boo Chae*                 (Fan)                                              World Hapkido Association
> *Son Mok Su #4*          (Wrist Technique)                             Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido
> Gongkwon Yusul
> Sin Moo Hapkido
> Kuk Sool Won
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent -  Kotegaeshi (Aikido)  /  Omote Kote Gyaku  (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu)_


 

Similar to our (Moo Sul Kwan's) Son Mok Soo No. 1




Doomx2001 said:


> _4 Direction Throw_ across body (omote/outside)
> 
> 
> *Hei Jun*                      (Rotation)                                  World Hapkido Association
> Kuk Sool Won
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent -  katae dori Shionage_ omote (Aikido)



We call it (and all the variations) "Four Corners Throw"





Doomx2001 said:


> Devil Horns Wrist Lock





Doomx2001 said:


> or S-Lock
> 
> *Son Mok Kuk Gi*                (Wrist Manipulation)                       World Hapkido Association
> Kuk Sool Won
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent    -    Nikyo(Aikido)  Nikajo (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)_



Similar to our Son Mok Soo No. 18





Doomx2001 said:


> Head over Heels throw





Doomx2001 said:


> *Hwe Jeon Tu Beop*      -   (turn around throwing method)              Hankido
> Kuk Sool Won
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent    -_ Katatetori Kaitenage Uchi (Aikido)  Hiza Guruma (Judo)



Similar to our No. 17 which my instructor calls "a heaven and earth throw"





Doomx2001 said:


> Whipthrow





Doomx2001 said:


> (acrossbody)
> 
> *Batjul dun chi gi*                     (rope throw)                                      My translation
> *International Hapkido Alliance?
> Jin Jung Kwan Hapkido
> *
> Japanese _Equivalent    -_ 'Shomen Uchi' Yonkyo (Aikido)




Similar to one of our throws found in our combination techniques set (Bok Hop Soo)


 



Doomx2001 said:


> Police Lock





Doomx2001 said:


> ?                                  (?)                                                              * Sin Moo Hapkido
> Kuk Sool Won*
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent    -
> _



Similar to our Son Mok Soo No. 5. Ours finishes by pinning them with our knee, similar to what I've seen in DRAJJ.





Doomx2001 said:


> Hip Throw





Doomx2001 said:


> *
> Kuk Sool Won*   (notice how the arm is 'locked' in Hapkido, but not in Judo)
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent    -_ Koshi Waza O Goshi (Judo)




We have several hip throws in our technique. In our combination set, there is one that uses an armbar.






Doomx2001 said:


> Elbow Lock Otoshi varation





Doomx2001 said:


> *Kuk Sool Won
> *(notice how the arm is 'locked' in Hapkido, but not in Judo)
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent    - _Ippon Seoi Nage (Judo)



We call this throw "One armed shoulder throw"





Doomx2001 said:


> Lock and Drop





Doomx2001 said:


> Kuk Sool Won
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent    -_



We have a simliar armbar (without taking them to the ground) as Son Mok Soo No. 19






Doomx2001 said:


> Leg Sweep





Doomx2001 said:


> Kuk Sool Won
> 
> Japanese _Equivalent    - _O Soto Gari (Judo)




Osoto Gari is usually called "Major Outer Reaping Throw" in English, at least as I've been taught.

A leg sweep refers to something else.




I saw other similarities in some of the above clips but don't have time to make comment.


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## Doomx2001

Thanks for the reply Scott. Its really helpful and insightful to get an idea of the differences and similarities of Hapkido techniques (as well as their Japanese counterparts). Thanks for taking the time type all that. Everything that I can add to the list is most appreciated.


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## Doomx2001

I've got 11 pages typed up so far. I will post the new details as soon as can. I will probably start a new thread as this will cover names of Hapkido techniques, Korean terminology, and Hapkido technqiues compared to Daito ryu (or other Japanese arts). And also, make it easier for people to find it in the event that they might want to research some of it themselves.


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## Royers

Doomx2001 said:


> Do you know what Kalakki, Goki, and Nae Hae Jin translates into? I'll add these to the list as well.Thanks for the encouragement.



I was going through some old vidoes of mine, and noticed that I have a some Jin Jung Kwan videos put out through Tuttle Press that have the Korean names for all the techniques it contains as well as the English translations.  I hadn't watched them in a while so I'd forgotten all about it.  I'd have to watch a lot of video, but I could probably eventually get you some of those techniques eventually.


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## oftheherd1

Royers said:


> I was going through some old vidoes of mine, and noticed that I have a some Jin Jung Kwan videos put out through Tuttle Press that have the Korean names for all the techniques it contains as well as the English translations. I hadn't watched them in a while so I'd forgotten all about it. I'd have to watch a lot of video, but I could probably eventually get you some of those techniques eventually.



Perhaps it would be easier to ask an instructor of Korean MA who is a native Korean speaker?


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## Royers

oftheherd1 said:


> Perhaps it would be easier to ask an instructor of Korean MA who is a native Korean speaker?



If that was an avenue available to me I would. My only other option would be to solicit someone I don't now through a forum such as this.


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