# Fake bjj black belt exposed



## Kickboxer101 (Sep 30, 2016)

I saw this video online of some guys exposing what they think is a fake McDojo black belt in bjj. I mean I know basically nothing so I can't comment but what do the bjj guys here think of it. I do find it interesting because I have seen a few times people say it's impossible to have a McDojo for bjj but well it seems there can be from this.


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## marques (Sep 30, 2016)

My 2 things, too:

1) You can get better 'Muay Thai' from Youtube (since you don't choose that guy... actually forget Youtube. Everyone is already better by nature).
2) Being a martial arts police IS possible and quite fun. (The thing is in BJJ there are standards. For the most of other MA the standards are as volatile as smoke...)

A bit more serious, this may not be fun, but it is necessary. He was abusing of the IBJJF name and abusing of the BJJ black belt status.

PS: The 4 Fake Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black Belts Exposed In The Year 2015,


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## KangTsai (Sep 30, 2016)

The only way to do such thing in BJJ is to lie and deny.


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## Charlemagne (Sep 30, 2016)

The nice thing about BJJ is that because sparring is an essential part of the training, and one that gets such high priority, it is very hard, if not impossible, to hide your lack of skills to anyone who has a legit background.


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> The only way to do such thing in BJJ is to lie and deny.



Nah, it's lay and pray.


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## Hanzou (Sep 30, 2016)

marques said:


> My 2 things, too:
> 
> 1) You can get better 'Muay Thai' from Youtube (since you don't choose that guy... actually forget Youtube. Everyone is already better by nature).
> 2) Being a martial arts police IS possible and quite fun. (The thing is in BJJ there are standards. For the most of other MA the standards are as volatile as smoke...)
> ...



He made that clown damn near get on his hands and knees and apologize and refused to give him back his (fake) belt. Told him to GTFO out of his gym and go home and be a family man.

Thats why I love Bjj.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 30, 2016)

Like any martial arts, the way to know is trail by fire, if the person performs horribly on a consistent basis then they are a fake. Martial arts of all kinds are simple to fake to an extent, this is why federations can be a good thing. Odds are if someone is a licensed black belt in something like WKF or IJF ect ect you aren't likely to be taken for a ride.


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## Steve (Sep 30, 2016)

There are plenty of BJJ mcdojos.  Just not all that many BJJ frauds.  Different things.


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## Hanzou (Sep 30, 2016)

I find it interesting how many people are shocked by that video. They're surprised that a guy who has spent a good chunk of his life practicing and learning a martial art would be pissed that some poser would just slap a belt around his waist and pretend to be just as experienced. 

Honestly the poser got off easy. I've heard plenty of stories of fakers getting their face caved in, or worse.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I find it interesting how many people are shocked by that video. They're surprised that a guy who has spent a good chunk of his life practicing and learning a martial art would be pissed that some poser would just slap a belt around his waist and pretend to be just as experienced.
> 
> Honestly the poser got off easy. I've heard plenty of stories of fakers getting their face caved in, or worse.



Who is complaining? I am guessing the comment section on the video because nobody here is.


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## drop bear (Sep 30, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> I saw this video online of some guys exposing what they think is a fake McDojo black belt in bjj. I mean I know basically nothing so I can't comment but what do the bjj guys here think of it. I do find it interesting because I have seen a few times people say it's impossible to have a McDojo for bjj but well it seems there can be from this.



If it was an actual Brazilian then there would have been no cameras and it wouldn't have been rolling.


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## kuniggety (Oct 1, 2016)

I don't know why anyone would think, in this day and age, how they could get away with being a fake BJJ black belt. Especially with a real school in the same town/city! 

I've run into a few people who just say they've "trained" and then as soon as I bring up rolling with them then the story turns into "oh it's been a few years" or "it was just a few things".


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## Ironbear24 (Oct 1, 2016)

kuniggety said:


> I don't know why anyone would think, in this day and age, how they could get away with being a fake BJJ black belt. Especially with a real school in the same town/city!
> 
> I've run into a few people who just say they've "trained" and then as soon as I bring up rolling with them then the story turns into "oh it's been a few years" or "it was just a few things".



This is why I prefer to tell the truth XD.


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## Buka (Oct 1, 2016)

Steve said:


> There are plenty of BJJ mcdojos.  Just not all that many BJJ frauds.  Different things.



I'm surprised there are BJJ McDojos. Shocked, actually. I mean, Wha???

I need to get out more.


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## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Who is complaining? I am guessing the comment section on the video *because nobody here is*.



Probably because 'fraud busting' isn't allowed on here and this is close to being just that.


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## JR 137 (Oct 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I find it interesting how many people are shocked by that video. They're surprised that a guy who has spent a good chunk of his life practicing and learning a martial art would be pissed that some poser would just slap a belt around his waist and pretend to be just as experienced.
> 
> Honestly the poser got off easy. I've heard plenty of stories of fakers getting their face caved in, or worse.



I was partying in Montreal one night back in college (actually, we went there quite a few times).  We were walking/staggering out of a bar after it closed and two guys were having words.  One guy says (and he was being serious) "Don't mess with me.  I'm a Navy SEAL. I train to kill people with my bare hands."  The only guy looked at him and threw one of the most pathetic punches I've ever seen an adult throw, landing on his chin.  The "Navy SEAL" dropped like a ton of bricks.  Everyone burst out laughing.  One of my friends yells out "He's a Navy SEAL, and I'm Mike Tyson."

I honestly don't think he'd have gotten hit if he didn't use his Navy SEAL line.  And it wasn't a sucker punch that would've caught and dropped anybody by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Ademadis (Oct 1, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I honestly don't think he'd have gotten hit if he didn't use his Navy SEAL line.  And it wasn't a sucker punch that would've caught and dropped anybody by any stretch of the imagination.



Was their perhaps a fair lady at the back the jocks were trying to impress? I've seen similar ilk and honestly it's just stupid.

Personally regardless of belt outside the dojo I wouldn't tell anyone. My dojo itself has a rule written in stone that you're not supposed to wear your gi outside of training etc. as it just invites conflict.

If you're bragging about your experience you've missed the point of training imo.


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2016)

Buka said:


> I'm surprised there are BJJ McDojos. Shocked, actually. I mean, Wha???
> 
> I need to get out more.


The entire Gracie Barra model is textbook mcdojo.  But the quality of instruction is pretty darn high.


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## msmitht (Oct 1, 2016)

Steve said:


> There are plenty of BJJ mcdojos.  Just not all that many BJJ frauds.  Different things.


And what makes a BJJ school a McDojo? In san diego there are many BJJ schools and I have only seen 2 bad ones. One closed and the other is unfortunately doing well due to a good marketing guy. 
Frauds are easy to spot. No senior students above blue. No one rolls. Everyone is frustrated as to why technique doesn't work. They get angry and out of breath. They use only strength.


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## marques (Oct 1, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Everyone is frustrated as to why technique doesn't work. They get angry and out of breath. They use only strength.


Waw! Exactly what I saw in a 'judo trying to be jujitsu' school. Only one of the brown belts was better than that. But at least these ones rolled. Instructor was 7 Dan. In the heart of Paris...


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## JR 137 (Oct 1, 2016)

Steve said:


> The entire Gracie Barra model is textbook mcdojo.  But the quality of instruction is pretty darn high.



Everyone's got their own definition of a McDojo, but most will agree that a place where "...the quality of the instruction is pretty darn high" isn't one of them.  

Low quality instruction and/or unrealistic techniques is pretty much universally accepted as the first criteria.  Most often accompanied by high fees.

If Royce Gracie or any of the other Gracies charged $500/month to train with them personally and they were turning the student(s) into BJJ machines, I wouldn't consider it McDojo.  If they charged $100/month and taught absurdity, I'd consider it classic McDojo.


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## Buka (Oct 1, 2016)

Are there BJJ dojos that don't roll? Or don't roll all that much?


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone's got their own definition of a McDojo, but most will agree that a place where "...the quality of the instruction is pretty darn high" isn't one of them.
> 
> Low quality instruction and/or unrealistic techniques is pretty much universally accepted as the first criteria.  Most often accompanied by high fees.
> 
> If Royce Gracie or any of the other Gracies charged $500/month to train with them personally and they were turning the student(s) into BJJ machines, I wouldn't consider it McDojo.  If they charged $100/month and taught absurdity, I'd consider it classic McDojo.


A McDojo is a cookie cutter, money making formula.   Gracie Barra charges pretty high fees, requires you buy their Bjj kimonos, their patches.  They charge very high affiliation fees to be a certified instructor, and they insist that their instruction is done according to their system, 

Is it worth it?   Maybe.   Not saying it isn't.   Is it McDojo?  I think it certainly is. 

So, when you say "most", I think you mean "some" think quality of instruction must be low for something to be a McDojo.

I think it would be helpful for you to read this thread so that you can get a better sense of how diverse the definitions of McDojo are around here.

What Is A McDojo?


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## Charlemagne (Oct 1, 2016)

Steve said:


> The entire Gracie Barra model is textbook mcdojo.  But the quality of instruction is pretty darn high.



Having a successful business model with numerous locations does not make Gracie Barra a McDojo.  The "Mc", in McDojo implies poor quality ala McDonald's, not just lots of locations.  "Textbook McDojo" to use your term, implies crap such as child black belts and fast promotion with no standards as long as your payment comes in on time.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 1, 2016)

Steve said:


> A McDojo is a cookie cutter, money making formula.   Gracie Barra charges pretty high fees, requires you buy their Bjj kimonos, their patches.  They charge very high affiliation fees to be a certified instructor, and they insist that their instruction is done according to their system.


  Ruth's Chris standardizes everything they do as well.  That doesn't make it the same thing as going to McDonalds.

Sure, the inside of every Hyundai dealership in the USA looks pretty much the same.  But then, so does the inside of every Porsche dealership.



> Is it McDojo?  I think it certainly is.
> 
> So, when you say "most", I think you mean "some" think quality of instruction must be low for something to be a McDojo.


  It's a pejorative term used to imply that training at a particular martial arts studio is akin to eating at fast food in that it is fast (obviously), cheaply made by people with almost no training, and not good for you.


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2016)

I don't happen to like the Gracie Barra business model.  its the Starbucks of Bjj.  

Mcdojo can imply poor instruction, but I think I've been clear that isn't what I mean.  It's more about the order of priorities.  In a McDojo, quality might be there, but money is higher on the list.   I think GB is, first and foremost, about making dough by selling a franchise model.


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## Hanzou (Oct 1, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Who is complaining? I am guessing the comment section on the video because nobody here is.



Comment section.


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## Buka (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve said:


> A McDojo is a cookie cutter, money making formula.   Gracie Barra charges pretty high fees, requires you buy their Bjj kimonos, their patches.  They charge very high affiliation fees to be a certified instructor, and they insist that their instruction is done according to their system,
> 
> Is it worth it?   Maybe.   Not saying it isn't.   Is it McDojo?  I think it certainly is.
> 
> ...



I never saw that particular thread. Read it all, though. I thought the first several pages were really good.

I speak from the past. I rally don't know anything about modern Mcdojos. I realize the money factor, but that's never how _we_ defined them. To us it was about two really big things, defining things. 

They had absolutely no idea how to fight, or teach, anything what-so-ever to do with actual fighting, or, not even sparring. Nothing, zip, nadda.

But.... and this is a pretty God Damn big and scary "but", - all the people who trained there were convinced they knew how to fight and honestly believed they would more than likely actually kill an attacker if it ever came down to it.

These places were all over the place in New England years ago. It's still what I think of as a McD.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

Buka said:


> I never saw that particular thread. Read it all, though. I thought the first several pages were really good.
> 
> I speak from the past. I rally don't know anything about modern Mcdojos. I realize the money factor, but that's never how _we_ defined them. To us it was about two really big things, defining things.
> 
> ...


That matches up with what I'd normally refer to as a McDojo. I don't even have a problem with the lack of fighting ability, because not everyone enters MA to learn to fight. It's the false perception that's the issue to me.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 2, 2016)

Buka said:


> I never saw that particular thread. Read it all, though. I thought the first several pages were really good.
> 
> I speak from the past. I rally don't know anything about modern Mcdojos. I realize the money factor, but that's never how _we_ defined them. To us it was about two really big things, defining things.
> 
> ...



Exactly.  It's about mass produced, low quality crap, put together by people with lousy training and sold to unsuspecting suckers as the real deal.  It's a place where people are pushed through to become blackbelts in short order without ever validating their skills as long as their check clears every month and they have some sort of reasonable class attendance.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve said:


> I don't happen to like the Gracie Barra business model.  its the Starbucks of Bjj.
> 
> Mcdojo can imply poor instruction, but I think I've been clear that isn't what I mean.  It's more about the order of priorities.  In a McDojo, quality might be there, but money is higher on the list.   I think GB is, first and foremost, about making dough by selling a franchise model.



Perhaps.  It's also about giving practitioners a chance to actually make a living at teaching martial arts, which is not easy to do.  Where I live at least, they are no more expensive than anyone else when it comes to training.  In addition, the set curriculum is not exactly uncommon.  Gracie Humaita, Relson Gracie Affiliates, Grace Academy Affiliates, Pedro Sauer Jiu-Jitsu Association, etc. all have a pretty set curriculum as well, and no one seems to have any problem with that.


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## msmitht (Oct 2, 2016)

So a successful school that charges a rate that allows the instructors to have only one job whole providing top quality instruction is a McDojo? I teach at a GB school and our standards are pretty high. Average BB trains 9-10 years. We have a large school with around 230 students. Have and continue to produce winners in IBJJF, NAGA and MMA at all levels of competition. Talk smack if you want but we are doing great. Jealousy is the most sincere form of flattery. 
Not denying that there have been a few Speed bumps. Some unscrupulous people out for a quick buck and guess what happened to them? Gone.


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## Steve (Oct 2, 2016)

Okay.  Sounds like I'm the outlier here.  I'll just take a final stab at explaining.  First, to be clear, I am not suggesting Gb schools are not good schools.   I'm actually suggesting "mc" anything is related to a business model... The one that McDonald's pioneered.  

There are pros and cons to chains.   but the pros are all linked to financial viability, not quality.    Quality is kind of irrelevant to the business model.  Without exception, the best restaurants I've ever been to are not chains.   The best steak in Seattle is at the metropolitan grill, not Ruth's Chris, for example.  That's not just my opinion.

So, affiliations like GB, and others, are making a lot of money.   The affiliation plan is about making money.   Charlemagne affirms that this is about money.  Quality is an aside.   And in fact, the affiliation protects the good instructors by associating them through the brand to elite instructors.   Starbucks makes an okay shot of espresso, but the brand values consistency over quality.   Quality has to be good, but it doesn't need to be great.  It can be, but doesn't need to be.

There is a trend in America right now towards chains of all kinds.   I travel quite a bit and every city looks more and more like every other.   Malls with targets, gamestops, the same stores and the same restaurants.

To me, this is the problem.   So when I hear Ruth's Chris, I do think mcrestaurant.   It's a chain, and that's kind of meh.   Doesn't mean the food is bad.  Just means it's not the place to go and expect to be wowed or surprised, or see something new.  I'm not going to go to Atlanta just to eat at the local Applebee's, maghiannos or Ruth's Chris.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Sounds like I'm the outlier here.  I'll just take a final stab at explaining.  First, to be clear, I am not suggesting Gb schools are not good schools.   I'm actually suggesting "mc" anything is related to a business model... The one that McDonald's pioneered.
> 
> There are pros and cons to chains.   but the pros are all linked to financial viability, not quality.    Quality is kind of irrelevant to the business model.  Without exception, the best restaurants I've ever been to are not chains.   The best steak in Seattle is at the metropolitan grill, not Ruth's Chris, for example.  That's not just my opinion.
> 
> ...


Actually, quality control is a large part of most chain/franchise plans. It doesn't ensure the highest quality, but ensures a consistent level of quality. No, the best restaurants won't be chains, but very few of the awful ones will be, either. And those awful ones within a chain usually change management or close. I think the same happens with good chain dojos, too. Are there bad ones, even bad chains? Sure, but most groups help ensure some quality level.

I do see where you're coming from - just pointing out how I view it. I've always considered "McDojo" to refer to a school that seems to not care about quality, whether part of a chain/franchise/association or not.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> I saw this video online of some guys exposing what they think is a fake McDojo black belt in bjj. I mean I know basically nothing so I can't comment but what do the bjj guys here think of it. I do find it interesting because I have seen a few times people say it's impossible to have a McDojo for bjj but well it seems there can be from this.



As others have noted, this wasn't about the school being a "McDojo", it was about the instructor being a fraud in his claimed BJJ credentials. It's hard to get away with being a fake BJJ black belt for very long precisely because of this sort of occurrence. The BJJ community is pretty diligent about weeding out fakes.


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## msmitht (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Sounds like I'm the outlier here.  I'll just take a final stab at explaining.  First, to be clear, I am not suggesting Gb schools are not good schools.   I'm actually suggesting "mc" anything is related to a business model... The one that McDonald's pioneered.
> 
> There are pros and cons to chains.   but the pros are all linked to financial viability, not quality.    Quality is kind of irrelevant to the business model.  Without exception, the best restaurants I've ever been to are not chains.   The best steak in Seattle is at the metropolitan grill, not Ruth's Chris, for example.  That's not just my opinion.
> 
> ...


First rule is quality instruction. If that is not there the school will fail no matter the business model


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As others have noted, this wasn't about the school being a "McDojo", it was about the instructor being a fraud in his claimed BJJ credentials. It's hard to get away with being a fake BJJ black belt for very long precisely because of this sort of occurrence. The BJJ community is pretty diligent about weeding out fakes.


It's going to be interesting to see what happens when someone starts a new branch of BJJ and changes the belt standards. Even if all they did was adopt reasonable grading standards similar to some other arts, they'd be out of line with most of BJJ. It seems inevitable, and I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened yet, perhaps from someone who carries rank in another art and just wants to simplify the ranking to make them similar.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Sounds like I'm the outlier here.  I'll just take a final stab at explaining.  First, to be clear, I am not suggesting Gb schools are not good schools.   I'm actually suggesting "mc" anything is related to a business model... The one that McDonald's pioneered.
> 
> There are pros and cons to chains.   but the pros are all linked to financial viability, not quality.    Quality is kind of irrelevant to the business model.  Without exception, the best restaurants I've ever been to are not chains.   The best steak in Seattle is at the metropolitan grill, not Ruth's Chris, for example.  That's not just my opinion.
> 
> ...


I don't often use the term McDojo, but I generally understand the meaning to include low-quality instruction and low standards for promotions as well as a devotion to maximizing revenue.

The definition that you suggest would be reasonable and less subjective, but I don't think that's how most people use the word.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

msmitht said:


> First rule is quality instruction. If that is not there the school will fail no matter the business model


Unfortunately, that's not really true. I've seen some schools flourish with really bad technique. There's one near me that I'd call a McDojo, and which has been around for at least 15 years.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It's going to be interesting to see what happens when someone starts a new branch of BJJ and changes the belt standards. Even if all they did was adopt reasonable grading standards similar to some other arts, they'd be out of line with most of BJJ. It seems inevitable, and I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened yet, perhaps from someone who carries rank in another art and just wants to simplify the ranking to make them similar.


It's actually already happened. There's an instructor (in Texas, if I remember correctly) who is a legitimate black belt under the Machados who has created his own curriculum with quick promotions and high black belt ranks for kids. Technically, the ranks are for his own in-house grappling system, not BJJ, but he has nevertheless gotten very negative reactions from the rest of the BJJ community and those ranks are not transferrable anywhere else.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's actually already happened. There's an instructor (in Texas, if I remember correctly) who is a legitimate black belt under the Machados who has created his own curriculum with quick promotions and high black belt ranks for kids. Technically, the ranks are for his own in-house grappling system, not BJJ, but he has nevertheless gotten very negative reactions from the rest of the BJJ community and those ranks are not transferrable anywhere else.


Correction. I went back and found the details. The instructor is Klay Pittman. He is a legitimate 3rd degree BB under Carlos Machado. The belts are considered to be in BJJ, but the kids get "junior black belts" and get a stripe on the belt for every 200 hours on the mats in rank. One of his kids has actually been promoted to 7th-degree "junior" black belt.

The rest of the BJJ world does not approve of "junior black belts" and have in general been very critical of the idea.


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## msmitht (Oct 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Unfortunately, that's not really true. I've seen some schools flourish with really bad technique. There's one near me that I'd call a McDojo, and which has been around for at least 15 years.


I should have said that for me and the teachers I have had , which includes Master Carlos, quality instruction comes first.


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## msmitht (Oct 2, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Correction. I went back and found the details. The instructor is Klay Pittman. He is a legitimate 3rd degree BB under Carlos Machado. The belts are considered to be in BJJ, but the kids get "junior black belts" and get a stripe on the belt for every 200 hours on the mats in rank. One of his kids has actually been promoted to 7th-degree "junior" black belt.
> 
> The rest of the BJJ world does not approve of "junior black belts" and have in general been very critical of the idea.



As they should be. He is doing well in business but has alienated himself completely from the bjj community. No one respects him except for his own students. I have personally met one of his Jr. Black belts as he was on vacation and wanted to do train. 2 yellow belts and an orange belt ran him over. They were being nice and didn't sub him. Dad was quick to point out that if he went by our rank schedule his son would be a Grey/black as he had only been training 3 years but has put in over 1000 hours.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's actually already happened. There's an instructor (in Texas, if I remember correctly) who is a legitimate black belt under the Machados who has created his own curriculum with quick promotions and high black belt ranks for kids. Technically, the ranks are for his own in-house grappling system, not BJJ, but he has nevertheless gotten very negative reactions from the rest of the BJJ community and those ranks are not transferrable anywhere else.


It would be nice to see the art maintain a fairly consistent standard of what a BB means. I don't know of anywhere else that has happened on a large scale. Once there's a split of associations and lineages, most arts end up with a range of standards.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

msmitht said:


> I should have said that for me and the teachers I have had , which includes Master Carlos, quality instruction comes first.


I was speaking more to the last half of your comment about schools not being able to stay open without it.


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## JR 137 (Oct 2, 2016)

We're pretty quick to jump on McDojos around here, and for good reason.  But everyone has their right to be happy.  Most people out there aren't interested in studying the arts to the depth we do.  They want that trophy, literally and figuratively (aka trophies, a belt to wear), and want others to know it.   If not for themselves, then for their kids.

They want a safe place where they/their kids can hang out.  They want that place to teach some values, teach work ethic, get some exercise, and so on.

Nothing wrong with that.  The McDojos pretty much all provide that.  If that's really their aim, they're at the right place more often than not.  Good for them.

My dojo is dirt cheap compared to everywhere else $45/month for kids, $55 for adults, no contracts, no hidden fees, no outrageous uniform costs, clubs, levels of membership, etc.

A few friends have kids in a McDojo.  I tell them they should check out where my daughter and I train.  I tell them the price.  They're usually interested until they ask me about the frills with the McDojos. We don't promote every month or two, we don't have in-house tournaments where every kid brings home a trophy bigger than they are.  We don't have a bunch of merit patches we see on our gis.  We don't have a van that picks the kids up from school.  We don't have a homework room.  We don't have a playground out back (we're out back!). We do however have a group of kids who work hard, are respectful, and earn every belt they wear, all while having fun.  We're not training little killers, we're teaching them the MA skills they'll need as adult students.  We're not teaching them to be tournament fighters, we're teaching them to be kids who don't get pushed around.

None of the parents have even visited.  We don't have enough frills.  Nothing wrong with that.  They're happy spending the money they spend elsewhere, and I'm happy where I am.


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## Steve (Oct 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It would be nice to see the art maintain a fairly consistent standard of what a BB means. I don't know of anywhere else that has happened on a large scale. Once there's a split of associations and lineages, most arts end up with a range of standards.


In Bjj the belt standards are calibrated through competition.


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## Tez3 (Oct 2, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> We don't have a van that picks the kids up from school. We don't have a homework room.


If the economy is much the same as ours where both parents need to work just to keep their heads above water, just, and the cost of childcare is extortionate these are probably more important to parents than anything else. If they can trust them to care for their children there and it's affordable then a place like this would be a godsend.
It doesn't happen here like that because if you want to look after children you have to be inspected by the local council, police checked as well as OFSTED registered. Martial arts places wouldn't be deemed suitable for after school care as such though you wouldn't need registration to just run martial arts classes, you just won't be able to run anything else such as you describe.


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## JR 137 (Oct 2, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> If the economy is much the same as ours where both parents need to work just to keep their heads above water, just, and the cost of childcare is extortionate these are probably more important to parents than anything else. If they can trust them to care for their children there and it's affordable then a place like this would be a godsend.
> It doesn't happen here like that because if you want to look after children you have to be inspected by the local council, police checked as well as OFSTED registered. Martial arts places wouldn't be deemed suitable for after school care as such though you wouldn't need registration to just run martial arts classes, you just won't be able to run anything else such as you describe.



I'm not criticizing working parents who use it as an after school thing in leu of a sitter.  Actually, none of the parents I know utilize those specific services.  And I'm not sure of the regulations involved with running that service.  I hope there are some in place.  New York State loves to regulate the hell out of everything else, so why not?

But a bunch of 14 year old 3rd degree black belts simply can't provide what I'd call quality instruction. Especially when there's 4 classes going on at the same time on the same floor.

Everyone's got to find the dojo that's the best fit for them.  And very rarely does the best fit boil down to one thing; it's always a combination of many factors.

As long as my friends are happy where they are, so be it.  I tell them once, and in a non-pushy way.  Anything more is annoying at best.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, quality control is a large part of most chain/franchise plans. It doesn't ensure the highest quality, but ensures a consistent level of quality.



Exactly right. There is a reason that Rickson, Pedro Sauer, etc. have been going on about people who learn in non-standardized environments not even knowing the basic self-defense aspect of BJJ, or having even a basic blue belt level of understanding of fundamental BJJ.  Standardization is not an evil, its about learning the rules so that later on, when one has a solid base, they can learn when and how to break them.  In addition, it is worth noting that Gracie Barra is very clear to its instructors that they are free to show their own variations of techniques, etc. and when one looks at their instructors, one can see that there is variation in how they move and teach, which is going to prevent stagnation.  

I left one BJJ school and went to Gracie Barra to train for exactly that reason.  I wanted a solid fundamental curriculum that wasn't going to leave things up to chance based upon whatever the instructor wanted to teach that day or whatever aspect of his game he likes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> We're pretty quick to jump on McDojos around here, and for good reason.  But everyone has their right to be happy.  Most people out there aren't interested in studying the arts to the depth we do.  They want that trophy, literally and figuratively (aka trophies, a belt to wear), and want others to know it.   If not for themselves, then for their kids.
> 
> They want a safe place where they/their kids can hang out.  They want that place to teach some values, teach work ethic, get some exercise, and so on.
> 
> ...



I used to be bothered by dojos that didn't provide viable self-defense training. I got over that a long time ago. Now, I'm only bothered by people who operate a business that doesn't provide the service or product they claim to. That applies to a dojo that claims to teach effective self-defense and produces people unable to fend off attackers even in a demonstration, those hawking cures that have been proven to be ineffective (or worse), and those teaching life management techniques that are demonstrably ineffective (or worse).


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve said:


> In Bjj the belt standards are calibrated through competition.


But not all BJJ schools participate in competitions (and that's a good thing - more reach for the art, more positive impact on more people). For those that do, the calibration is fairly automatic - and fool-resistant.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Exactly right. There is a reason that Rickson, Pedro Sauer, etc. have been going on about people who learn in non-standardized environments not even knowing the basic self-defense aspect of BJJ, or having even a basic blue belt level of understanding of fundamental BJJ.  Standardization is not an evil, its about learning the rules so that later on, when one has a solid base, they can learn when and how to break them.  In addition, it is worth noting that Gracie Barra is very clear to its instructors that they are free to show their own variations of techniques, etc. and when one looks at their instructors, one can see that there is variation in how they move and teach, which is going to prevent stagnation.
> 
> I left one BJJ school and went to Gracie Barra to train for exactly that reason.  I wanted a solid fundamental curriculum that wasn't going to leave things up to chance based upon whatever the instructor wanted to teach that day or whatever aspect of his game he likes.


Precisely. For a skilled instructor (not the same as a skilled technician), the standardization is unnecessary, and may even pose a hindrance. For the average instructor, it makes life (and good instruction easier). For the weak instructor who happens to be technically solid, the standardization can be a godsend. 

For the student with no background, seeking some certainty that the instruction will be good, and will be consistent with other schools (for competition and transfer), standardization can also be a very good thing.


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## jks9199 (Oct 2, 2016)

I think the whole Mcdojo analogy has been done to death.

Commercial martial arts is s a spectrum.  On one end, you have places that exist to make money, and will do so at the expense of quality instruction or standards if need be.  There, the end goal is to inflate the owner's bank account.  You'll see tons of things done to do that, from "must purchase our special school uniform" through 85 different bonus clubs which you must join if you really want to advance, high testing fees, etc...  One of the biggest things I hate to see about those places is the "student instructor programs" under whatever name.  Yep, you're going to pay for the privilege of teaching classes so that Master doesn't have to pay employees.  Another thing that makes me cringe is the almost universal thinly disguised day care, which often dodges the legal requirements for day care.  

Then you have a vast middle ground of places that are simultaneously trying to keep the lights on and give good training.  These places may be franchised, they may be a string of schools under one local master.  You'll see some of the stuff I described above -- but where in the bottom rung sacrifices the training for the dollars, this tier tries really hard to be honest and give good training, while earning enough to stay in business.  Some are more successful at one side of the game than the other... but they try.  

Finally, you have another end that cares more about the training than the bills.  Unfortunately, most of these places don't stay in business long, unless they happen to link with a Name.  (Gracie Barra would be an example.)  If you must do the restaurant analogy, these are often the guys who always dreamed of having a restaurant, whose friends swear they're great cooks... but they haven't got a clue about the ins and outs of running a restaurant.

So... is money the root of all evil in martial arts?  Nah.  Not even close.  Because you can almost make the same breakdown in places that aren't commercial.  Maybe the driver isn't money... but they're cut from the same models. 

So...  with all that, do most martial arts need to go out and bust people claiming to teach them with improper credentials?  This came up previously...  First question: are they hurting anyone?  If yes -- then you do.  (And diluting a brand name is a form of injury... or at least can be seen as being one for the more mercenary sorts...)Is anyone going to benefit by the bust?  Here?  maybe a few students.  Bet the guy would go under within a year anyway, though...


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## Steve (Oct 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> But not all BJJ schools participate in competitions (and that's a good thing - more reach for the art, more positive impact on more people). For those that do, the calibration is fairly automatic - and fool-resistant.


That's not true.   All good schools encourage and support competitiveness and participation.    Not everyone in the school competes, but there should always be a competitive element o Bjj.   It would be very suspicious if a school discouraged or did not participate in competitions.


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## Buka (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve said:


> There is a trend in America right now towards chains of all kinds.   I travel quite a bit and every city looks more and more like every other.   Malls with targets, gamestops, the same stores and the same restaurants.
> 
> To me, this is the problem.   So when I hear Ruth's Chris, I do think mcrestaurant.   It's a chain, and that's kind of meh.   Doesn't mean the food is bad.  Just means it's not the place to go and expect to be wowed or surprised, or see something new.  I'm not going to go to Atlanta just to eat at the local Applebee's, maghiannos or Ruth's Chris.





JR 137 said:


> We're pretty quick to jump on McDojos around here, and for good reason.  But everyone has their right to be happy.  Most people out there aren't interested in studying the arts to the depth we do.  They want that trophy, literally and figuratively (aka trophies, a belt to wear), and want others to know it.   If not for themselves, then for their kids.
> 
> They want a safe place where they/their kids can hang out.  They want that place to teach some values, teach work ethic, get some exercise, and so on.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that.  The McDojos pretty much all provide that.  If that's really their aim, they're at the right place more often than not.  Good for them.





gpseymour said:


> I used to be bothered by dojos that didn't provide viable self-defense training. I got over that a long time ago.





jks9199 said:


> So...  with all that, do most martial arts need to go out and bust people claiming to teach them with improper credentials?  This came up previously...  First question: are they hurting anyone?  If yes -- then you do.  (And diluting a brand name is a form of injury... or at least can be seen as being one for the more mercenary sorts...)Is anyone going to benefit by the bust?  Here?  maybe a few students.  Bet the guy would go under within a year anyway, though...



Not trying to cherry pick, or take anything out of context. I think all of these are such great points.

Sometimes I don't like it here so much. You guys keep trying to show me the light. I hate the light! 
You're right, such great points.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> That's not true.   All good schools encourage and support competitiveness and participation.    Not everyone in the school competes, but there should always be a competitive element o Bjj.   It would be very suspicious if a school discouraged or did not participate in competitions.


I know a school that is self-defense focused, teaching GJJ (CI also teaches NGA - recently made purple in GJJ, as I recall). They are very serious about it and very focused, but I don't think anyone in the school participates in any competitions, because that's not their focus. I'm sure there are others like it. Why would it be suspicious for folks to not be interested in competition? BJJ is a good art, with lots of levels, and a school that doesn't go to competitions will attract a different sort of student than one that competes.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I know a school that is self-defense focused, teaching GJJ (CI also teaches NGA - recently made purple in GJJ, as I recall). They are very serious about it and very focused, but I don't think anyone in the school participates in any competitions, because that's not their focus. I'm sure there are others like it. Why would it be suspicious for folks to not be interested in competition? BJJ is a good art, with lots of levels, and a school that doesn't go to competitions will attract a different sort of student than one that competes.


Because competition is a fundamental part of the art.  It's the way one school calibrates their ranking system with other schools.   As I said, not everyone in a school competes, but the school as a whole should encourage participation.  I would be very leery of a school that doesn't compete.   Maybe some other Bjj guys around here can comment.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I know a school that is self-defense focused, teaching GJJ (CI also teaches NGA - recently made purple in GJJ, as I recall). They are very serious about it and very focused, but I don't think anyone in the school participates in any competitions, because that's not their focus. I'm sure there are others like it. Why would it be suspicious for folks to not be interested in competition? BJJ is a good art, with lots of levels, and a school that doesn't go to competitions will attract a different sort of student than one that competes.


I'll also add that if a school doesn't compete for the reasons above, that's a real shame.   it's a very short step from this to the dilemma we are currently discussing with aikido.   A school that isolates itself from the community, and avoids calibration, is creating all kinds of reasons they can't or won't demonstrate that their execution of technique actually works.   Just like aikido.   Could it work?  At that point, who the heck could say?


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2016)

There are certainly BJJ schools which aren't _focused_ on competition. I don't know how many there are where *no one* from the school ever competes - I imagine it's a small percentage.

Even in schools which aren't particularly active on the tournament competition scene, there's always a certain degree of _internal_ competition taking place with the daily rolling. Typically there will be a steady stream of  new students and visitors with previous training (wrestlers, judoka, BJJ students from other schools) coming through that students can test themselves against. Many of us also visit other schools on occasion and roll with the students there.

If you had a BJJ school where none of the students ever competed or visited other schools or rolled with visitors from other schools, then I would worry that they might be in danger of getting off-track from the rest of the BJJ community in terms of their standards.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> I'll also add that if a school doesn't compete for the reasons above, that's a real shame.   it's a very short step from this to the dilemma we are currently discussing with aikido.   A school that isolates itself from the community, and avoids calibration, is creating all kinds of reasons they can't or won't demonstrate that their execution of technique actually works.   Just like aikido.   Could it work?  At that point, who the heck could say?


I don't think they're isolated from the community. It's not uncommon for someone to drop in on them to train for a while, and that gives much of that calibration. The issue we're discussing in Aikido has more to do with lack of resistance. When rolling in BJJ, there's plenty of resistance, and that's enough "competition" to keep the approach realistic, IMO. I agree that competitions create better calibration between schools, and it's nice if some of the senior students and/or instructors in a school participate in competitions to gain this calibration, but it's not a necessary component for keeping the style realistic.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think they're isolated from the community. It's not uncommon for someone to drop in on them to train for a while, and that gives much of that calibration. The issue we're discussing in Aikido has more to do with lack of resistance. When rolling in BJJ, there's plenty of resistance, and that's enough "competition" to keep the approach realistic, IMO. I agree that competitions create better calibration between schools, and it's nice if some of the senior students and/or instructors in a school participate in competitions to gain this calibration, but it's not a necessary component for keeping the style realistic.


I disagree.   The value of competition is that it provides objective feedback.  you can't calibrate a scale against itself and expect to get the correct weight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> I disagree.   The value of competition is that it provides objective feedback.  you can't calibrate a scale against itself and expect to get the correct weight.


But it's not a single person being calibrated against himself/herself. It's calibration within a system. The scale analogy only applies here when we talk about ranks, and on that point I agree. If nobody within a school rolls with people outside that school from time to time, the ranks will likely eventually become uncalibrated. However, so long as a group starts with good skill levels and committed opposition (resistance) when rolling, they will maintain a similar level of skill, irrespective of what the belts say, to any other school with similar intensity and skill of training. There's definitely an advantage or two in attending competition - experiencing approaches from other "flavors" of the art, getting to try more different people than just at the school, finding what works when the opponent doesn't know your game intimately, etc. But I don't think those are absolutely necessary for the art to remain effective - the internal competition during rolling (hopefully including some cross-visits between schools) is more important for that than an occasional influence from a competition.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> But it's not a single person being calibrated against himself/herself. It's calibration within a system. The scale analogy only applies here when we talk about ranks, and on that point I agree. If nobody within a school rolls with people outside that school from time to time, the ranks will likely eventually become uncalibrated. However, so long as a group starts with good skill levels and committed opposition (resistance) when rolling, they will maintain a similar level of skill, irrespective of what the belts say, to any other school with similar intensity and skill of training. There's definitely an advantage or two in attending competition - experiencing approaches from other "flavors" of the art, getting to try more different people than just at the school, finding what works when the opponent doesn't know your game intimately, etc. But I don't think those are absolutely necessary for the art to remain effective - the internal competition during rolling (hopefully including some cross-visits between schools) is more important for that than an occasional influence from a competition.


Rolling with people doesn't equal competition.   They aren't equivalent.   I think we fundamentally disagree here, and that's okay.   I'm interested to hear from other BJJ guys on this like @Charlemagne, @Tony Dismukes  and @Hanzou.  Maybe I'm the outlier here, too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> Rolling with people doesn't equal competition.   They aren't equivalent.   I think we fundamentally disagree here, and that's okay.   I'm interested to hear from other BJJ guys on this like @Charlemagne, @Tony Dismukes  and @Hanzou.  Maybe I'm the outlier here, too.


I'm actually interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this, Steve. You're much more a proponent of outside competition than I am, and I'm trying to understand that difference. What is fundamentally different to you about competition within a school versus competition from outside? The main risk I see if there's no outside competition is that resistance might stop being real resistance as folks subconsciously start assuming a person who is better than them will always beat them, and any committed outside influence (like attending a competition) makes that obvious.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> Rolling with people doesn't equal competition.   They aren't equivalent.   I think we fundamentally disagree here, and that's okay.   I'm interested to hear from other BJJ guys on this like @Charlemagne, @Tony Dismukes  and @Hanzou.  Maybe I'm the outlier here, too.


Rolling with your training partners _shouldn't_ be the same as all-out competition, at least not as a default, since that's not the best way to learn. Even so, competitive rolls typically happen often enough in-house that they can provide a decent degree of calibration.

Competition has some advantages for testing purposes. You get more of an adrenaline rush. The participants are typically bringing their A game rather than experimenting with new techniques and tactics for the sake of learning.

At the same time, there are some disadvantages as well. Competitors may become focused on how to win within a certain limited rule set at the expense of development in the whole art. Raw athleticism plays a greater role, which may not be what you want to consider as a primary factor in calibrating rank standards.

When I roll with people from other schools I'm typically pretty dominant over the white through purple belts and in the same general league as most of the brown and black belts. In a tournament I would be at a disadvantage against most of those black belts since they would be bringing their full athleticism to bear and they're generally 20+ years younger than I am. (None of the tournaments I've attended have been big enough to have an over-50 black belt bracket. I'd be happy with an over-40 bracket, but they don't have those or even an over-30 bracket.) Even without the tournament validation, I'm reasonably confident that the ranking standards at my school are comparable to others in the area.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2016)

One area where I'm concerned that BJJ may be moving away from good calibration standards is in calibration against non-BJJ practitioners. Gracie Challenge matches against practitioners of other styles used to be a regular thing. Now that aspect has largely been shifted over to those who train and compete in MMA. In more and more schools (even those which offer MMA training) you have many BJJ students who only train for grappling competition in the gi and have no experience dealing with strikes or practitioners of other martial arts. For these people, BJJ is a sport rather than a martial art. I have no problem with those who love the sport aspect, but I feel like something is lost when the martial art is neglected.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> Rolling with people doesn't equal competition.   They aren't equivalent.   I think we fundamentally disagree here, and that's okay.   I'm interested to hear from other BJJ guys on this like @Charlemagne, @Tony Dismukes  and @Hanzou.  Maybe I'm the outlier here, too.



I personally have only been training Jiu-Jitsu a short time, so my experience should not be taken as Gospel.  However, I have not seen a place yet that does not have either the instructor, or some of the students, participating in competition.  Having said that, one of the knocks that BJJ'ers use against some of the more classical Martial Arts is that they don't practice against a resisting opponent, not that they don't compete.  If a particular BJJ studio didn't have anyone competing, but they regularly rolled hard in class and were open to outsiders coming to train and their students did drop ins at other places while they traveled, I don't see that as a big red flag.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One area where I'm concerned that BJJ may be moving away from good calibration standards is in calibration against non-BJJ practitioners. Gracie Challenge matches against practitioners of other styles used to be a regular thing. Now that aspect has largely been shifted over to those who train and compete in MMA. In more and more schools (even those which offer MMA training) you have many BJJ students who only train for grappling competition in the gi and have no experience dealing with strikes or practitioners of other martial arts. For these people, BJJ is a sport rather than a martial art. I have no problem with those who love the sport aspect, but I feel like something is lost when the martial art is neglected.


This ability to deal with attacks that are outside the norm of BJJ's delivery has been one of its strengths. As someone watching mostly from the outside, it's something I've always thought defined BJJ differently from most arts/styles. I see the influence of the diminishing focus on this in some of the competition videos I watch, as some habits appear to ignore the chance of getting hit (a risk not present in many competitions). These habits gain an advantage in a grappling-only context, but would be a disadvantage in any other. Keeping that influence from "challenge matches" or even from friendly sparring with other styles would definitely benefit BJJ.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 3, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One area where I'm concerned that BJJ may be moving away from good calibration standards is in calibration against non-BJJ practitioners. Gracie Challenge matches against practitioners of other styles used to be a regular thing. Now that aspect has largely been shifted over to those who train and compete in MMA. In more and more schools (even those which offer MMA training) you have many BJJ students who only train for grappling competition in the gi and have no experience dealing with strikes or practitioners of other martial arts. For these people, BJJ is a sport rather than a martial art. I have no problem with those who love the sport aspect, but I feel like something is lost when the martial art is neglected.





gpseymour said:


> This ability to deal with attacks that are outside the norm of BJJ's delivery has been one of its strengths. As someone watching mostly from the outside, it's something I've always thought defined BJJ differently from most arts/styles. I see the influence of the diminishing focus on this in some of the competition videos I watch, as some habits appear to ignore the chance of getting hit (a risk not present in many competitions). These habits gain an advantage in a grappling-only context, but would be a disadvantage in any other. Keeping that influence from "challenge matches" or even from friendly sparring with other styles would definitely benefit BJJ.



I agree with those comments, and it is one of the big things that Rickson, Pedro Sauer, Ryron and Rener, etc. have been going on about for some time now.  The emphasis on sport in the form of grappling competition has led to many movements and positions in BJJ that leave you completely exposed to strikes.  This is a fundamentally different philosophy from the origins of the art, and one of the big reasons that I am fan of a standardized curriculum, particularly for the early belts, so that all students get exposed to those concepts and practice them while rolling.  

Later on, if someone really gets into the competition scene, they can move to some of the more crazy positions or techniques.  However, I think it is worth noting that guys like Roger Gracie, Kron Gracie, Xande and Saulo Ribeiro, etc. are still kicking tail with "basic" BJJ.  So, I am honestly not sure that some of those positions are essential for succeeding at high level grappling competitions.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> I agree with those comments, and it is one of the big things that Rickson, Pedro Sauer, Ryron and Rener, etc. have been going on about for some time now.  The emphasis on sport in the form of grappling competition has led to many movements and positions in BJJ that leave you completely exposed to strikes.  This is a fundamentally different philosophy from the origins of the art, and one of the big reasons that I am fan of a standardized curriculum, particularly for the early belts, so that all students get exposed to those concepts and practice them while rolling.
> 
> Later on, if someone really gets into the competition scene, they can move to some of the more crazy positions or techniques.  However, I think it is worth noting that guys like Roger Gracie, Kron Gracie, Xande and Saulo Ribeiro, etc. are still kicking tail with "basic" BJJ.  So, I am honestly not sure that some of those positions are essential for succeeding at high level grappling competitions.


It's not just a matter of the specialized positions and tactics which are becoming common in grappling competition. Even the crazier ones could have some potential use or lesson for a practitioner  focused on martial application. It's more a matter of just having experience with someone trying to punch you in the face or otherwise mess you up in a way not allowed in competition.

I'm not the most badass of BJJ black belts by a long shot, but I do have experience sparring practitioners of Boxing, Karate, Muay Thai, Kung Fu, Kali, Jukado, Judo, Sambo, and more. I worry when I see BJJ students getting promoted to blue, purple, etc without ever having someone try to hit them in the face.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Oct 3, 2016)

Other than money, why would anyone fake knowledge in a sport art? 

Never did understand that.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 3, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> Other than money, why would anyone fake knowledge in a sport art?
> 
> Never did understand that.



Other than money, ego is the thing that comes to mind.


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## Tez3 (Oct 3, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> Other than money, why would anyone fake knowledge in a sport art?
> 
> Never did understand that.



For the same reason people go around saying they were in the military when they weren't, and it's never just the military it's always special forces. We call them Walts here ( after Walter Mitty)


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## Buka (Oct 3, 2016)

I think a lot depends on the players involved. In an isolated school with minimal numbers of students, if you train for any length of time you'll learn to adjust what you do comfortably - to who you are rolling/sparring with. That will happen in a large school as well, especially if you stay for a long period, but the numbers can matter a bit.

Competing gives you several avenues for growth that I haven't ever been able to figure another way to get. The most obvious is the "complete stranger". Never saw the guy, nobody knows him, not his strengths or weaknesses, nada. Applying what you do, how you fight, to the stranger can be a great or frustrating learning experience. Another related benefit is if you get to watch people in the first round, that you will eventually fight, it can be a learning experience to sharpen your observational and adaptive skills. Especially if you compete several times or more.

If a group of competitors come from a school, but not the majority of that school is competing, you can pretty much figure it's not going to be their weakest fighters, it's probably going to be their better fighters. Competing against strong fighters can only sharpen your game. Especially when you don't know them.

I'm not relating this to self defense skills, but it can sharpen some of them as well. It takes you out of your comfort zone, way out of your comfort zone. If you roll/sparr at your school as part of your training, that's going to be the single most comfortable place you will ever do so. More comfortable than in your own home. I'm not equating the pressure and emotional upheaval of a self defense encounter to competing (entirely different animal) but it is an increase in pressure, emotion, adrenaline and the unknown just the same.

I'll tell you what else. If you drive three hours to a competition, wait another three to hear your name called, then get your butt smoked right out of the gate - you can bet you'll be better prepared the next time, because it really, really sucks.

I also think that if a school gears it's training specifically and only to competition, that's a huge mistake. But I don't know if schools actually do that.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 3, 2016)

Buka said:


> I also think that if a school gears it's training specifically and only to competition, that's a huge mistake. But I don't know if schools actually do that.



Many do these days.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Many do these days.


Teaching to the test is a bad idea.   But the answer isn't to stop testing.   It's to keep the test in perspective.  Nothing you do in a school can ever replace the objective feedback you get by risking complete failure outside the school.

Sparring isn't competition.  There are so many things that happen to you internally and externally when you are preparing to compete and actually competing that don't happen while rolling in a school.  

Even if guys drop in, there is etiquette involved.   You don't go into a school in competition mode.   It's just not done.

Rather than avoiding competition altogether, I think it's great that there are so many emerging rule sets that are different from the IBJJF rules.   It keeps you from training for one context and can, as designed, help you identify gaps.

Not competing. I don't know.   Seems completely foreign to the spirit of BJJ.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> Teaching to the test is a bad idea.   But the answer isn't to stop testing.   It's to keep the test in perspective.  Nothing you do in a school can ever replace the objective feedback you get by risking complete failure outside the school.
> 
> Sparring isn't competition.  There are so many things that happen to you internally and externally when you are preparing to compete and actually competing that don't happen while rolling in a school.
> 
> ...



My comment was in response to whether there were schools that trained only for competitions.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> My comment was in response to whether there were schools that trained only for competitions.


Sorry I wasn't clear.  Teaching to the test is a bad idea.   Meaning, of a school only teaches to the test, that's not good.    The answer, however, isn't to stop testing.

 In other words, using schools which train only for competition to justify not competing is a bad, bad idea.  The idea of a Bjj school that doesn't compete just doesn't compute for me.  It's a huge red flag.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear.  Teaching to the test is a bad idea.   Meaning, of a school only teaches to the test, that's not good.    The answer, however, isn't to stop testing.
> 
> In other words, using schools which train only for competition to justify not competing is a bad, bad idea.  The idea of a Bjj school that doesn't compete just doesn't compute for me.  It's a huge red flag.



I understand where you are coming from. And, as I noted above, I have never been to, or even heard about, a legit Jiu-Jitsu school that doesn't have someone, either students or instructors, competing at some level.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> I understand where you are coming from. And, as I noted above, I have never been to, or even heard about, a legit Jiu-Jitsu school that doesn't have someone, either students or instructors, competing at some level.


Glad to hear it.  I was confused because above yiou said it would not be a red flag for you.


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## kuniggety (Oct 4, 2016)

I wouldn't go to a school where no one competes even though I've never competed, if that makes any sense. As Steve has been saying, that competition acts as a calibration for the school. When I can hold my own against blues who are winning medals or survive against purples+ doing the same, then I know I'm where I want to be as a blue.


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## Buka (Oct 4, 2016)

Steve said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear.  Teaching to the test is a bad idea.   Meaning, of a school only teaches to the test, that's not good.    The answer, however, isn't to stop testing.
> 
> In other words, using schools which train only for competition to justify not competing is a bad, bad idea.  The idea of a Bjj school that doesn't compete just doesn't compute for me.  It's a huge red flag.



Please have some patience with an old man. 
Visited a bunch, but I've only trained in one BJJ school for any length of time, and one other school where good BJJ was taught in conjunction with other forms of fighting arts. Both competed regularly. We (wife and I) never thought much of it, just another thing done for those that wanted to do it, which was sometimes us, sometimes not, depending on what else was going on in life.

So, this is a thing? Most BJJ schools compete? Pretty standard?


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2016)

Buka said:


> Please have some patience with an old man.
> Visited a bunch, but I've only trained in one BJJ school for any length of time, and one other school where good BJJ was taught in conjunction with other forms of fighting arts. Both competed regularly. We (wife and I) never thought much of it, just another thing done for those that wanted to do it, which was sometimes us, sometimes not, depending on what else was going on in life.
> 
> So, this is a thing? Most BJJ schools compete? Pretty standard?



10 Reasons you’re still a white belt - Brazilian Black Belt


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2016)

drop bear said:


> 10 Reasons you’re still a white belt - Brazilian Black Belt


That article does a good job of explaining the reaction some (like Steve) have to folks not competing. I still don't care, but that's my background. I've never cared much for competing to win. I only ever roll to test myself against someone, and with the limited amount of time I have for training, testing at that level isn't in my blood. But I can see why it would be, and why it could seem "off" for a school not to have any competitors. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it does seem outside the culture of the art.

I'll just say this - I'm certain that when formal, scored competitions started in Karate, there were some with the opposite view. Perhaps there's room inside the BJJ culture for non-competitive schools, but that seems like a different thing than sport BJJ, so I'm not sure how those stay closely aligned.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 4, 2016)

Steve said:


> Glad to hear it.  I was confused because above yiou said it would not be a red flag for you.



As long as there was hard rolling and they were open to outsiders coming to train, they themselves were doing drop-ins with other schools when they traveled, and they had someone over them (as in an association) making sure they were maintaining standards, I really wouldn't.  I would call it a yellow flag rather than a red in that it might cause me to look closer, but not automatically be concerned.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2016)

Couple of quick things, and then I have to hit the road.

1.  Competing isn't just about winning.   It's about objective, external feedback.  It's application of technique in a context where there are some stakes for loss. five minutes of rolling in competition is worth 100 hours of sparring in class, even with strangers. 

2.  A competitive ruleset is competition, but competition isn't restricted to a single ruleset.   The best schools encourage students to test themselves in a variety of rule sets from IBJJF to sub only, to modified sub only to MMA. 

3.  Related to the last one, competition is in the Dna of Bjj.   Carlos competed.   Helio competed.   All of the Gracies built their reputations personally through competitio from the top to the bottom.   and if your name isn't Gracie, if you want to be a successful coach, you need to compete.   Pedro Sauer, the Ribiero brothers, All,of the legends built their legend in competition.   If there are issues with the test, The answer isn't to stop competing, it's to modify the test.   Competition should be as diverse as the skills being tested, and in the past this would range from challenge matches to tournaments to vale tudo. 

I'll post more if needed, as I can.  But hopefully this helps to explain my thoughts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2016)

Steve said:


> Couple of quick things, and then I have to hit the road.
> 
> 1.  Competing isn't just about winning.   It's about objective, external feedback.  It's application of technique in a context where there are some stakes for loss. five minutes of rolling in competition is worth 100 hours of sparring in class, even with strangers.
> 
> ...


To your first point, I think that depends how the competitor looks at it. I've always enjoyed competition more than winning, so getting on the mats and rolling - for me - is the same whether there's a tournament or just an empty room. If I'm not trying something out (sparring to learn, where we don't necessarily bring our best game), then it all feels the same to me: I'm trying my best stuff to see how it works against their best stuff, and there's no real stakes in losing in either context. I think that's why I don't perceive the same value in it as you do - I don't think I'd actually get the same value as you do. Your attitude adds value to the tournament experience.


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## msmitht (Oct 4, 2016)

Steve said:


> Couple of quick things, and then I have to hit the road.
> 
> 1.  Competing isn't just about winning.   It's about objective, external feedback.  It's application of technique in a context where there are some stakes for loss. five minutes of rolling in competition is worth 100 hours of sparring in class, even with strangers.
> 
> ...


When the first generation of Gracie's competed they were challenge matches where their opponents were trying to punch and kick them as opposed to the current generation that is doing sport jiu jitsu. We teach both the self-defense and the sport. We have many people who love to compete and do extremely well but we also have police officers, military and emergency personnel. Most of them are not interested in the sport. They want to learn how to use Jiu-Jitsu for its combat effectiveness. They still free roll with everybody butt they just have different goals and their training. I would be wary of a school that does not promote competitions in any way shape or form. Even the Gracie Academy has tournaments and their number one goal is self-defense


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## Buka (Oct 4, 2016)

Competing is just plain fun. How you fare is beside the point. Despite the travel and pain in the butt waiting around seemingly forever, the matches themselves, are a ball. The camaraderie you have with your team mates grows, you meet some great guys from other places, you sometimes see some really wild stuff, you learn a lot, especially when you get your tail whooped. And winning? First few times it happens, it's really the balls.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That article does a good job of explaining the reaction some (like Steve) have to folks not competing. I still don't care, but that's my background. I've never cared much for competing to win. I only ever roll to test myself against someone, and with the limited amount of time I have for training, testing at that level isn't in my blood. But I can see why it would be, and why it could seem "off" for a school not to have any competitors. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it does seem outside the culture of the art.
> 
> I'll just say this - I'm certain that when formal, scored competitions started in Karate, there were some with the opposite view. Perhaps there's room inside the BJJ culture for non-competitive schools, but that seems like a different thing than sport BJJ, so I'm not sure how those stay closely aligned.



It is not necessarily what I would agee with either.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2016)

Buka said:


> Competing is just plain fun. How you fare is beside the point. Despite the travel and pain in the butt waiting around seemingly forever, the matches themselves, are a ball. The camaraderie you have with your team mates grows, you meet some great guys from other places, you sometimes see some really wild stuff, you learn a lot, especially when you get your tail whooped. And winning? First few times it happens, it's really the balls.


This sounds like how I'd react to a competition. It sounds like fun, but I'm not sure how much I'd care about the outcome, other than what I can learn from it and how much fun I had during the match. I've made the "mistake" in the past of grappling with guys much better than me. The result probably should have been embarrassing, but I just ended up with a big grin. It's like a roller coaster to me - just a kinda scary fun ride. The most fun to me is when the other guy is about my skill, and we keep blocking each other's moves until someone gets tired and sloppy. It's frustrating, but leaves me smiling.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> This sounds like how I'd react to a competition. *It sounds like fun, but I'm not sure how much I'd care about the outcome, other than what I can learn from it and how much fun I had during the match.* I've made the "mistake" in the past of grappling with guys much better than me. The result probably should have been embarrassing, but I just ended up with a big grin. It's like a roller coaster to me - just a kinda scary fun ride. The most fun to me is when the other guy is about my skill, and we keep blocking each other's moves until someone gets tired and sloppy. It's frustrating, but leaves me smiling.


I think you guys are starting to understand how important the competitions are.  Bold part sums it up pretty well.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2016)

Iron sharpens iron.

Bible quote apparently. There you go.


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## Buka (Oct 5, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> This sounds like how I'd react to a competition. It sounds like fun, but I'm not sure how much I'd care about the outcome, other than what I can learn from it and how much fun I had during the match. I've made the "mistake" in the past of grappling with guys much better than me. The result probably should have been embarrassing, but I just ended up with a big grin. It's like a roller coaster to me - just a kinda scary fun ride. The most fun to me is when the other guy is about my skill, and we keep blocking each other's moves until someone gets tired and sloppy. It's frustrating, but leaves me smiling.



You know what the most fun is? Once in a while you'll fight a guy who's better than you, a better fighter, a better overall Martial Artist - and you'll beat him. Not because the ref missed something, not because you got lucky, not because he had an off day - you'll just beat him.
The fun isn't there at the competition,(although the ride home is kinda' nice) it's when you get back to training on Monday. It will inspire and propel you in a way that's different than anything else. It makes you work even harder, regardless of how hard you've always worked.

Man, if you could bottle that....


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## kuniggety (Oct 5, 2016)

Buka said:


> Man, if you could bottle that....



Yeah, I wish I could bottle pure dumb luck.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2016)

Steve said:


> I think you guys are starting to understand how important the competitions are.  Bold part sums it up pretty well.


This is why I wanted to continue the discussion. With the exception of a brief stint in Judo (and though we trained for competition, I never got the opportunity to go to one), I've never trained at a school that had any focus on competition. If rolling on a regular basis was still an option, I'd probably join a BJJ school just for the fun, if nothing else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2016)

Buka said:


> You know what the most fun is? Once in a while you'll fight a guy who's better than you, a better fighter, a better overall Martial Artist - and you'll beat him. Not because the ref missed something, not because you got lucky, not because he had an off day - you'll just beat him.
> The fun isn't there at the competition,(although the ride home is kinda' nice) it's when you get back to training on Monday. It will inspire and propel you in a way that's different than anything else. It makes you work even harder, regardless of how hard you've always worked.
> 
> Man, if you could bottle that....


I get a bit of that every time I step into a strange school, or even visit one I'm familiar with but haven't visited in a while. I come back fired up to work on something. I can imagine competition would do at least that.


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## msmitht (Oct 5, 2016)

Every time you slap and bump it's a new experience. You can benefit from each and every role whether it is with a beginner are the most advanced. It all depends on how you look at it. You should be challenged every day on the mat and if you are not then you should be looking elsewhere or going to the more advanced classes


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## punisher73 (Oct 15, 2016)

Steve said:


> There are plenty of BJJ mcdojos.  Just not all that many BJJ frauds.  Different things.



I do believe that there is a very famous BJJ BB out there now who has a special "celebrity curriculum" that is taught and is much less vigorous than what most would learn.



> “I created a new jiu jitsu system for people who can’t get hurt. It’s technical training. They learn jiu-jitsu and technically train, but it’s all safe. I created a type of jiu-jitsu for the Beverly Hills clientele. Competition, sparring… these guys can’t do that. I can’t even take a 1% chance of them getting hurt. I have 18 celebrities doing this program."


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