# What is NOT being talked about in regards to the Duck Dynasty controversy



## Makalakumu (Dec 22, 2013)

For those of you who don't know anything about this, here's the skinny.  One of the members of A&Es popular Duck Dynasty program gave an interview to GQ magazine.  In the interview, the interviewee made several anti-gay comments that were religious based and were offensive to a large segment of the population.  Now, there is a media circus surrounding this and stores across the country are pulling Duck Dynasty products off the shelves in fear of boycotts and other bad press.  

Here is what is NOT being talked about by the media though.

Phil Robertson made comments that a lot of people find highly offensive.  These comments are based in scripture.  Here are some examples.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/homosexuality



> "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."  Leviticus 18:22
> 
> "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Leviticus 20:13
> 
> "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Corinthians 6:9-11



It's pretty clear that Phil Robertson IS repeating a CLEAR prohibition in the Bible.  And according to believers, the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God.  Therefore, if society and the media finds what Phil Robertson said offensive, they are actually saying that the Christian Scripture and the Christian God is offensive.  I find it very interesting that society is piling on Phil Robertson right now and refusing to open this door and acknowledge the source of what it finds offensive.  

Christianity, the Christian God, and the Bible is the root of the offensiveness that is causing this media circus.  This is what is NOT being talked about.  It's far easier to talk about how big of a bigot Phil Robertson is...rather than talking about why he is a bigot in the first place.


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## DennisBreene (Dec 23, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> For those of you who don't know anything about this, here's the skinny.  One of the members of A&Es popular Duck Dynasty program gave an interview to GQ magazine.  In the interview, the interviewee made several anti-gay comments that were religious based and were offensive to a large segment of the population.  Now, there is a media circus surrounding this and stores across the country are pulling Duck Dynasty products off the shelves in fear of boycotts and other bad press.
> 
> Here is what is NOT being talked about by the media though.
> 
> ...



Playing devils advocate here because I don't watch the show and the only information I've read about this matter has been through this forum.  But, how often have bigots in the past quoted the bible to justify their beliefs?


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## Makalakumu (Dec 23, 2013)

It's actually very frequent. The Bible was used to justify slavery. It's one of the reasons why the Abolishinists had such a hard time removing slavery from society. The point that I'm making here is very similar. Christianity is a powerful form of unreason in our society and I think this is something that should be talked about. Our society thinks of Islam as a violent and dangerous religion and people can see that it's unreasonable in many ways. But they don't see how a more "peaceful" religion can be just as unreasonable in their own society.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

If your not a Christian then why would anyone give a crap if a Christian says your not going to Heaven.  You don't believe in Heaven in the first place or at least a Christian View.  That's what I can't understand.  Most people crying about his comments are not Christians so why do you care.  He didn't call for Gays to be beat or fired or targeted.  He was asked what's a sin and he gave several answers including but not limited to being Gay.  He didn't say I wouldn't hire a gay male.  In fact if you watch his show he and his wife hired a clearly Gay male to take family pictures for them.  I'm also positive there must be one or two gay folks in the production staff he deals with.  So if your not a Christian why do you care if a Christian says that's a sin?  You don't believe in it anyway


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## billc (Dec 23, 2013)

Well, first...you need to complain to God about that...second...keep in mind that the anti-slavery movement was led by religious people as well...as was the early scientific discoveries and an awful lot of good as well...the non-believers have a bit to answer for during the 20th century...


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## crushing (Dec 23, 2013)

There has been some good that has come from religion.  It hasn't all been holy inquisitions, genocide, slavery, and witch hunts.  I think the development of the human thought processes that created superstitions, religion, astrology and such were the first attempts to help understand and explain the universe around us.  Supernatural agency was assigned to natural events that weren't understood at the time.  They religion/astrology and the like are the forebearers of modern philosophy and science.  Without this stage of our infancy of thought, we may not have progressed to the level of knowledge we have today.  I am thankful that we have made it through that stage of our development (so far) and look forward to fascinating discoveries about the real world yet to come.

What an amazing time to live!


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## Makalakumu (Dec 23, 2013)

This Christian prejudice isn't benign. It leads to bullying, violence, and it's ingrained in our societies legal code. 

The key link that needs to be made is that this is a Christian prejudice.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> This Christian prejudice isn't benign. It leads to bullying, violence, and it's ingrained in our societies legal code.
> 
> The key link that needs to be made is that this is a Christian prejudice.



Your wrong.  True Christians don't judge or bully.  Its not our place to judge anyone that's Gods job.  I can believe your commiting a sin that doesn't mean I hate you or want to hurt you.  If people are using the word of god to do bad things that is also a sin.  These same people would bully even without trying to use the excuse of the bible.


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## granfire (Dec 23, 2013)

why are we talking about this AT ALL?


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## Makalakumu (Dec 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Your wrong.  True Christians don't judge or bully.  Its not our place to judge anyone that's Gods job.  I can believe your commiting a sin that doesn't mean I hate you or want to hurt you.  If people are using the word of god to do bad things that is also a sin.  These same people would bully even without trying to use the excuse of the bible.



The Christian God declared homosexuality as an abomination. Abominations are to be put to death. God specifically KILLS homosexuals. 

Wouldn't a true Christian obey all of Gods divinely inspired word?


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## Makalakumu (Dec 23, 2013)

granfire said:


> why are we talking about this AT ALL?



Good question. While America talked about this, congress voted on and passed the NDAA.


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## crushing (Dec 23, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> The Christian God declared homosexuality as an abomination. Abominations are to be put to death. God specifically KILLS homosexuals.
> 
> Wouldn't a true Christian obey all of Gods divinely inspired word?




Because of Exodus 22:18, that's what happened to hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of "witches."


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## Drasken (Dec 23, 2013)

Actually Abomination meant against cultural tradition. The laws come from Jewish law, and came from a time where people had to bolster their numbers with several children.
Also the original Hebrew didn't refer to Witch as the word is used now. It meant someone who used "magic" to harm or kill another. Magic itself was used by many people including the Holy men and women. In fact there are many stories of kings, and holy men seeking out the wise magicians and seers for advice.
The bible has been changed quite a bit over the years. Not all intentional of course, some came from mistranslation.

As for evil of religion, yes it has happened. But it's not all bad. However when man can convince themselves they are doing God's will, even the most evil of acts can be done with a clear conscience. People try to rationalize their actions in any way possible. Many use God as a scapegoat. Because in their mind, who dares argue with God?


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## Rumy73 (Dec 23, 2013)

OK, if I wrote something like this it would be considered flaming... Anyhow, one interpretation of the Christian Bible would be to believe so. However, there are many ways -- studied and well articulated ones -- to interpret the Bible. Anti-homosexuality was rooted in the Jewish tradition, which made its way into the Bible. My opinion is that moral codes or religious beliefs often originally start with some practical reason in mind. In the case of the Jews, they were a small group surround by hostile camps. A healthy and growing population was necessary for them to prosper. The anti-gay stance remained in the culture, although the reasons for banning it were no longer an issue.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> The Christian God declared homosexuality as an abomination. Abominations are to be put to death. God specifically KILLS homosexuals.
> 
> Wouldn't a true Christian obey all of Gods divinely inspired word?


Its not mans job to kill anyone the 10 commandments tells us so.  Its Gods job to take action on others.  
Like I said just because I disagree with your choices doesn't mean I want to hurt you or think you need to die


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## Big Don (Dec 23, 2013)

I note the cowardice in many of you, for not attacking Islam for the same thing. BTW, when was the last time a Christian nation executed a homosexual?


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## Drasken (Dec 23, 2013)

Big Don said:


> I note the cowardice in many of you, for not attacking Islam for the same thing. BTW, when was the last time a Christian nation executed a homosexual?



Islam is attacked all the time for attacks on women, homosexuals, other religions, etc.
In America, however, the biggest thing that we deal with is outspoken Christians using the bible to try and influence our laws to discriminate against people that they don't agree with.
I oppose this wholeheartedly. And you can try and explain it away as "I vote how I believe and that is based on my religion." Well that is all fine and well, but you can't do that and then turn around and talk about how wrong the Muslims are for doing the same thing in their own countries.

If there was nobody fighting against this line of thinking, then we would turn into a Theocracy. Christians complain about a growing Muslim influence in America. But they fail to see that it is the same thing that all of you have been pushing on Non Christians all along.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

Except this is a country founded on Christian Principals no matter how much people try to pretend its not.


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## Drasken (Dec 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Except this is a country founded on Christian Principals no matter how much people try to pretend its not.



Study your history. Many of the founding fathers were Atheist and Deist. That whole pesky seperation of church and state thing.

The Middle eastern countries.were based on Islamic principals as well. But we're sure trying to change that due to crimes against human rights aren't we. Countries evolve as do their people.


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## Big Don (Dec 23, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Islam is attacked all the time for attacks on women, homosexuals, other religions, etc.



Hahahaha

That statement is so demonstrably and self-evidently false it is hilarious.


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## Drasken (Dec 23, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> That statement is so demonstrably and self-evidently false it is hilarious.



How is it false? There are groups fighting in the Middle East for equality of women, people are rising up with the help of our troops and using their voices to oppose oppressive regimes.
There are advocacy groups calling attention to it all the time. We have news on this constantly. But we are fighting against ideals that are so deeply ingrained in a culture and it will take time.
Much like the fight for civil rights, gender equality and now our fight for homosexual rights in our own country.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Your wrong.  True Christians don't judge or bully.  Its not our place to judge anyone that's Gods job.  I can believe your commiting a sin that doesn't mean I hate you or want to hurt you.  If people are using the word of god to do bad things that is also a sin.  These same people would bully even without trying to use the excuse of the bible.


So the Spanish Inquisition was secular?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 23, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> That statement is so demonstrably and self-evidently false it is hilarious.


Hey, you just attacked Islam by proxy!


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## crushing (Dec 23, 2013)

Big Don said:


> I note the cowardice in many of you, for not attacking Islam for the same thing.



Your comparison between the two religions is very appropriate as they have much in common and was made earlier today in this thread - http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...s-to-A-amp-E?p=1616358&highlight=#post1616358


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 23, 2013)

Big Don said:


> I note the cowardice in many of you, for not attacking Islam for the same thing. BTW, when was the last time a Christian nation executed a homosexual?





James Pratt and John Smith, two London men who became the last two to be hanged for sodomy in England, in November 1835

That was the last _Official_ execution I could find.

Unofficially, Christians are killing homosexuals around the world.  How about 2011 in Philadelphia PA?


> A 28 year-old Philadelphia-area man admitted he stoned to death a 70  year-old man because the Bible says to stone homosexuals. John Joe  Thomas reportedly killed Murray Joseph Seidman, whom he knew, and told  police, &#8220;I stoned Murray with a rock in a sock,&#8221; because he had read in  the Bible that gays should be stoned.
> According to the _Philadelphia Inquirer_,  &#8220;The young man and Seidman were often seen together grocery shopping  and going to church,&#8221; and &#8220;He then described how he placed batteries and  rocks in a sock, and hit Seidman in the head at least 10 times.&#8221;
> Think about this. Gays are being stoned to death in 21st century  America. Actually, we don&#8217;t even know if the man who was stoned was gay,  but his murderer thought he was.


http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.co...ible-says-to-stone-gays/news/2011/03/18/18138

From the link above. I have not verified the claims as to what the versions say.


> (The following is also via Aravosis at AmericaBlog)
> 
> New International Version (©1984)
> &#8220;&#8216;If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. *They must be put to death*; their blood will be on their own heads. New Living Translation (©2007)
> ...



2007, Texas


> A Cypress man charged in the death of a Southwest Airlines flight  attendant said Saturday that he was doing God's work when he went to a  Montrose-area bar last month, hunting for a gay man to kill.
> "I believe I'm Elijah, called by God to be a prophet," said 26-year-old Terry Mark Mangum, charged with murder June 11. " ... I believe with all my heart that I was doing the right thing."
> Interviewed in the Brazoria County Jail Saturday morning, Mangum said he feels no remorse for killing 46-year-old Kenneth Cummings  Jr., whom relatives described as a "loving" son who never forgot a  holiday and a devoted uncle who had set up college funds for his niece  and nephew. He worked at Southwest for 24 years.
> Mangum, who  described himself as "definitely not a homosexual," said God called on  him to "carry out a code of retribution" by killing a gay man because  "sexual perversion" is the "worst sin.


http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...r-suspect-says-he-did-right-thing-1608151.php

2011, Atlanta GA


> District Attorney Tracey Cline said Friday 27-year-old Peter Lucas Moses  shot 5-year-old Jadon Higganbothan because he thought the boy was gay. (LINK)


http://livinglifewithoutanet.com/2011/07/09/five-year-old-killed-for-being-gay/

2011, Carroll County, GA


> Christians Firebomb A Gay Man's House
> A christian group tried to execute a rural Georgia man by burning him  alive in his home over the weekend. A rock was thrown through Chris  Staples windows with a note attached threatening to kill him for being  Gay. Hours later Staples&#8217; home was engulfed in flames, he barely escaped  with his life.


http://www.thegaymanifesto.com/2011...empt-to-burn-georgia-man-alive-for-being-gay/

And one assault where local law enforcement refused to take a complaint:
2011, TN
http://www.wbbjtv.com/news/local/Assault-Complaints-Filed-after-Incident-at-Church-130746713.html


> WBBJ:
> &#8220;I went over to take the keys out of the ignition and all the  sudden I hear someone say &#8216;sick&#8217;em,&#8217;&#8221; said Gibson County resident, Jerry  Pittman Jr.
> Pittman said the attacked was prompted by the pastor of the church, Jerry Pittman, his father.
> &#8220;My uncle and two other deacons came over to the car per my dad&#8217;s  request. My uncle smash me in the door as the other deacon knocked my  boyfriend back so he couldn&#8217;t help me, punching him in his face and his  chest. The other deacon came and hit me through my car window in my  back,&#8221; said Pittman. He said bystanders did not offer assistance. He  said the deacon yelled derogatory homosexual slurs, even after officers  arrived. He said the officers never intervened to stop the deacons from  yelling the slurs.
> ​



Nearly 14 hate crimes  are committed every day against the Gay and Lesbian community, and that  number is growing.  The majority of victims are attacked in their  homes.



Christian Minister Wants Taxpayers To Fund Extermination Of Gay & Lesbian Americans
Teenage Gang Attempts To Burn Gay Man In Duluth, Minnesota
Christian Minister Demands Congress Build Concentration Camps, Calls for Genocide Against Gay & Lesbian Americans
North Carolina Pastor Sean Harris Directs Christian Congregation To Beat Gay & Lesbian Children &#8211; Local School Threatened




However it's illegal to be gay in 80+ countries.

Here's the* Americas* 62 Antigua & Barbuda
63 Barbados
64 Belize
65 Dominica
66 Grenada
67 Guyana
68 Jamaica
69 St Kitts & Nevis
70 St Lucia
71 St Vincent & the Grenadines
72 Trinidad & Tobago


 In the United States, anti-sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional by  the U.S. Supreme Court in 2003, but they are still on the books in 13 states:  Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi,  North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina,  Texas, Utah and Virginia.  Conservative state legislators refuse to repeal the laws and, in some  cases, police still enforce them.  Reportedly, in the past few years  more than a dozen LGBT people were arrested for violating those laws,  but the arrestees were freed because prosecutors won&#8217;t seek convictions  based on defunct laws.


http://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/


Oh, just a "few" more to add. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States

[h=3]2010&#8211;present[/h] 

January 18, 2010 &#8211; The half-naked corpse of *Myra Chanel Ical*, 51, a trans woman of color, was found in a vacant lot in Houston, Texas.[SUP][124][/SUP]
March 30, 2010 &#8211; *Amanda Gonzalez-Andujar*, a 29-year-old Latina  trans woman, was found dead in her Queens, New York apartment. The  autopsy found that her attacker, Rasheen Everett, had strangled her then  doused her body with bleach.[SUP][125][/SUP]
April 3, 2010 &#8211; *Toni Alston*, a black 44-year-old transgender woman, was shot in the front door of her home in West Charlotte, North Carolina.[SUP][126][/SUP]
May 7, 2010 &#8211; *Dana A. "Chanel" Larkin*, a 26-year-old black  trans woman who worked as a prostitute, was shot three times in the head  by her client, Andrew Olacirequi, after she asked him if he was okay  with them having sex despite her male genitalia. She was found dead on  the pavement of a Milwaukee street.[SUP][127][/SUP]
June 21, 2010 &#8211; *Sandy Woulard*, a 28-year-old trans woman, was  shot in the chest in South Side, Chicago. A passing motorist found her  lying in the street, and she was pronounced dead at the hospital.[SUP][128][/SUP]
October 3, 2010 &#8211; A 30-year-old male known as *"la Reina"* (the Queen), *Bryan Almonte*, 17, and *Brian Cepeda*, 17, were kidnapped by a homophobic group of youths calling themselves the Latin King Goonies,  sodomized by foreign objects including a plunger and baseball bat,  burned with cigarettes, and tortured for hours. One of the teenage  victims had wanted to join the gang the attackers were part of, but when  members saw him with the 30-year-old, they later picked him up and took  him to an abandoned apartment and asked him if the two had had sex.  When the teenager responded positively, he was beaten and sodomized. The  gang later picked up the second teenager whom they had also seen with  the 30-year-old and repeated the process. They then lured the  30-year-old to the building with the promise of a party. When he arrived  with alcohol, the gang tied him up and tortured him and made the  17-year-old burn him with cigarettes. They then robbed the man's  40-year-old brother, coercing him by putting a cellphone to his ear so  he could hear his brother beg to pay them.[SUP][129][/SUP][SUP][130][/SUP][SUP][131][/SUP]
September 11, 2010 &#8211; *Victoria Carmen White*, a 28-year-old black transgender woman, died of bullet wounds in her New Jersey apartment. It is believed she was targeted by her killer, Alrashim Chambers, for her gender identity.[SUP][132][/SUP]
October 14, 2010 &#8211; *Stacey Blahnik Lee*, a 31-year-old black trans woman, was found murdered in her Philadelphia home by her boyfriend.[SUP][133][/SUP]
November 17, 2010 &#8211; 18-year-old *Joshua Wilkerson* was found  dead in a field in Pearland, Texas, after being beaten to death and set  on fire by a friend of 5 years, Hermilio Moralez. This was supposedly a  retaliation to unwanted sexual advances.[SUP][134][/SUP]
January 11, 2011 &#8211; *Chrissie Bates*, a 45-year-old transgender  woman, was stabbed to death in her downtown Minneapolis apartment.  Arnold Darwin Waukazo was sentenced to 367 months in prison for the  murder.[SUP][135][/SUP]
February 19, 2011 &#8211; *Tyra Trent*, a black 25-year-old trans woman, was found strangled to death in a vacant house.[SUP][136][/SUP]
April 4, 2011 &#8211; *Quinn Matney* suffered 3rd and 4th degree  burns to his wrist after being branded by an unidentified man for being  gay. The attack happened while he was taking a night time stroll on his  university campus in North Carolina.[SUP][137][/SUP]
April 2011 &#8211; *Kevin Pennington*, a gay 28-year-old male, was  kidnapped and severely beaten in a Kentucky park by two men shouting  anti gay epithets. David Jason Jenkins and Anthony Ray Jenkins face  possible life sentences for anti gay hate crime.[SUP][138][/SUP]  On March 15, 2012, the Kentucky State Police assisted the FBI in  arresting David Jenkins, Anthony Jenkins, Mable Jenkins, and Alexis  Jenkins of Partridge, KY for the beating of Kevin Pennington during a  late-night attack in April 2011 at Kingdom Come State Park,[SUP][139][/SUP][SUP][140][/SUP] near Cumberland. The push came from the gay-rights group Kentucky Equality Federation, whose president, Jordan Palmer, began lobbying the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky in August 2011[SUP][141][/SUP] to prosecute after stating he had no confidence in the Harlan County Commonwealth's Attorney to act.[SUP][142][/SUP] "I think the case's notoriety may have derived in large part from the Kentucky Equality Federation efforts," said Harvey, the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky.[SUP][143][/SUP] Mable Jenkins, and Alexis Jenkins plead guilty.[SUP][143][/SUP]
April 22, 2011 &#8211; *Chrissy Lee Polis*,[SUP][144][/SUP]  a 22-year-old trans woman, was beaten in a violent struggle by two  African-American women for entering the women's bathroom in Baltimore  County, Maryland, which triggered her to have a seizure. A McDonald's  employee, who was later fired, filmed the encounter and released the  film on the internet; it since went viral.  Teonna Monae Brown, 19, pleaded guilty to first-degree assault and a  hate crime in the beating, and was sentenced to 5 years in prison, plus  three years of supervised probation. The other woman was charged as a  juvenile and committed to a juvenile detention facility.[SUP][145][/SUP] See: 2011 Rosedale, Maryland beating
June 2011 &#8211; *Rosita Hernandez*, a Cuban trans woman, was stabbed to death in Miami.[SUP][146][/SUP]
July 20, 2011 &#8211; *Lashai Mclean*, a 23-year-old African American trans woman, was shot to death in Northeast Washington DC.[SUP][147][/SUP]
August 11, 2011 &#8211; *Camila Guzman*, a Latina transgender woman, was found murdered in her apartment in East Harlem, Manhattan.[SUP][148][/SUP]
September 8, 2011 &#8211; *Cameron Nelson*, a 32-year-old gay man, was attacked at his place of employment in Utah.[SUP][149][/SUP]
October 11, 2011 &#8211; *Shelley Hilliard*, a black transgender teen who had been reported missing, had her burnt torso identified by police in Detroit.[SUP][150][/SUP] Her killer, 30-year-old Qasim Raqib, was sentenced on March 6, 2012 to 25&#8211;40 years in jail.[SUP][151][/SUP]
November 15, 2011 &#8211; *Danny Vega*, a 58-year-old Asian-American  gay man who worked as a hairdresser in Rainier Valley, Seattle was  beaten and robbed as he was taking a walk. The beating left Vega in a  coma from which he later died.[SUP][152][/SUP]
November 17, 2011 &#8211; *Cassidy Nathan Vickers*, a 32-year-old  black transgender woman, died from a fatal gunshot wound to the chest in  Hollywood. Her killer, who is still unidentified, is suspected of also  attempting to rob and non-fatally shoot another black transgender woman  on the same day.[SUP][153][/SUP]
December 17, 2011 &#8211; *Charlie Hernandez*, a 26-year-old who was  openly gay, was stabbed to death following a brawl that included  anti-gay slurs that occurred with two men after he accidentally stepped  on some sunglasses.[SUP][154][/SUP]
December 24, 2011 &#8211; *Dee Dee Pearson*, a 31-year-old  transgender woman, died from bullet wounds in Kansas City, Missouri.  Kenyan L. Jones was charged with second-degree murder and armed criminal  action. Jones told police he paid to have sexual relations with Ms  Pearson, believing her to be a cisgender woman, but hours after having sex with her, discovered she was not.[SUP][155][/SUP] Angered by what he considered to be a deception, he got a 9mm-caliber handgun, found Ms Pearson, and killed her.[SUP][156][/SUP] Kenyan L. Jones was arrested on suspicion of her murder.[SUP][157][/SUP]
December 29, 2011 &#8211; The body of *Githe Goines*, a black 23-year-old trans woman[SUP][158][/SUP]  who had been reported missing 2 weeks beforehand, was found in a  scrapheap. An autopsy set that the time of her death as much as 2 days  before her body was discovered, and that she had been strangled.[SUP][159][/SUP]
January 21, 2012 &#8211; *Crain Conaway*, a black 47-year-old trans woman, was found dead in her home in Oceanside, California.[SUP][160][/SUP] Tyree Paschall Monday was arrested in connection with her murder.[SUP][161][/SUP]
February 2, 2012 &#8211; *JaParker "Deoni" Jones*, a 23-year-old black trans woman, was stabbed in the head while waiting at a Metro bus stop in Washington DC.[SUP][162][/SUP]
February 2012 &#8211; *Cody Rogers*, an 18-year-old teenager, was  brutally assaulted and targeted with homophobic slurs at a party after  defending a female friend who was also attacked.[SUP][163][/SUP]
March 24, 2012 &#8211; Several transgender and crossdressing people were  shot at and robbed in Florida by a man, suspected to be De Los Santos.  23-year-old *Tyrell Jackson* was fatally wounded in the shooting, which also injured 20-year-old *Michael Hunter*.[SUP][164][/SUP]
April 3, 2012 &#8211; *Coko Williams*, a black trans woman, was found murdered in East Detroit, Michigan. The homicide may have been related to Coko's involvement in sex work.[SUP][165][/SUP]
April 16, 2012 &#8211; *Paige Clay*, 23, a black trans woman, was  found dead, with a bullet wound to her face in West Garfield Park,  Chicago. The death was ruled as a homicide.[SUP][166][/SUP]
April 21, 2012 &#8211; *Eric Unger*, a 23-year-old gay man living in  Illinois, was attacked by a group of men on the way home from a party,  while they shouted anti-gay epithets at him. The investigation is  ongoing.[SUP][167][/SUP]
April 29, 2012 &#8211; *Brandy Martell*, a 37-year-old trans woman of color, was murdered in Oakland, California.[SUP][168][/SUP]
May 2012 &#8211; *Max Pelofske*, a 21-year-old gay man, was beaten by  a group of youths at a party in Minnesota. Pelofske claims it was a  hate crime, but police disagree.[SUP][169][/SUP]
June 5, 2012 &#8211; *Kardin Ulysse*, a black 14-year-old boy, was  attacked in the cafeteria of Roy Mann Junior High School by another  group of boys. He was called anti-gay slurs and sustained damage to the  cornea of one of his eyes, leaving him blinded. Ulysse's parents planned  on suing the city for failing to supervise its students properly.[SUP][170][/SUP]
June 23, 2012 &#8211; *Mollie Olgin*, 19 years old, and her girlfriend, *Kristene Chapa*, 18 years old, were found shot in the head near Violet Andrews Park in Portland, Texas.  Olgin died at the scene and Chapa survived. Law enforcement has said  there is no evidence to suggest that the incident is a hate crime.[SUP][171][/SUP] The Human Rights Campaign and Equality Texas urged a thorough investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice, the FBI and Portland police to find the shooter.[SUP][172][/SUP]
July 5, 2012 &#8211; *Tracy Johnson*, a 40-year-old black trans woman, was found dead from gunshot wounds in Baltimore, Maryland.[SUP][173][/SUP]
August 14, 2012 &#8211; *Tiffany Gooden*, a 19-year-old black trans  woman, was found murdered on the second floor of an abandoned building  in Chicago. An autopsy verified that she had been stabbed to death.  Notably, the body of Paige Clay, another young black trans woman, was  discovered in April 3 blocks away from where Tiffany was found. The pair  were known as friends.[SUP][174][/SUP]
August 18, 2012 &#8211; *Kendall Hampton*, a 26-year-old black trans  woman, died of gunshot wounds. Eugene Carlos Dukes was arrested in early  September for her murder, and indicted later that month.[SUP][175][/SUP]
August 26, 2012 &#8211; *Deja Jones*, a 33-year-old black trans woman, was shot to death in Miami. No arrest has yet been made.[SUP][176][/SUP]
September 3, 2012 &#8211; The body of *Kyra Cordova*, a 27-year-old trans woman, was found in a wooded area in Frankford, Philadelphia.[SUP][177][/SUP]
November 15, 2012 &#8211; *Janette Tovar*, a 43-year-old trans woman  was murdered by her partner, Jonathan Kenney, according to police, who  beat her and slammed her head into concrete. He was later arrested for  her murder.[SUP][178][/SUP]
March 1, 2013 &#8211; *Sondra Scarber* addressed a parent about her  girlfriend's son being bullied at Seabourn Elementary School in  Mesquite, Texas, and was beaten by him when he realized that she was a  lesbian.[SUP][179][/SUP]
May 17, 2013 &#8211; *Mark Carson*, a 32-year old black gay man,[SUP][180][/SUP] was shot to death by another man who trailed and taunted him and a friend as they walked down the street in Greenwich Village, New York.  When the two friends ignored the assailant's questions, the man began  yelling anti-gay slurs and asked one of them, "You want to die tonight?"  Elliot Morales, 33, was arrested briefly after the shooting and charged  with murder and weapons charges on May 19.[SUP][181][/SUP] According to police, Morales said he shot Carson because he was "acting tough".[SUP][182][/SUP] Morales pleaded not guilty on June 19, 2013.[SUP][183][/SUP]
November 4, 2013 - *Sasha Fleischman*, an 18-year-old who identifies as genderqueer (neither male nor female), had their skirt set on fire while they were sleeping on an AC Transit bus in Oakland, California.  Police arrested 16-year-old Richard Thomas and charged him as an adult  with aggravated mayhem, assault by means likely to produce great bodily  injury, and hate-crime enhancements. Thomas admitted to police that he  had started the fire and that he did it because he was "homophobic."[SUP][184][/SUP]

I'll let those interested in such dig into the details and see if any of the murderers or assailents might be Christians, who go to churches with strong anti-gay leanings.

Now, to put this all in perspective, the FBI is saying there are 14 hate crimes per day against gays in the US.  That's 5,110.  Assuming an average of 2 attackers per incident (A number I pulled from thin air), that puts the number of asshat Christians ignorant enought to get violent at 10,220.  The US Population is 320,000,000. At least half identify as Christian. Meaning 160,000,000.
Meaning 159,989,780 Christians did not kill, beat, assault, vandalize or otherwise "hate" gays that year.


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## granfire (Dec 23, 2013)

they might not have thrown the first (or any) stone, but even 'mild mannered' Christians have been heard to utter the phrase 'they should be shot' in regard to gay people....


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> James Pratt and John Smith, two London men who became the last two to be hanged for sodomy in England, in November 1835
> 
> That was the last _Official_ execution I could find.
> 
> ...


Its always better to have an excuse for the jury no matter how far fetched.  "I killed him cause I could just sounds bad"

Also half the ones listed have no connection to religion.  Just because a Gay person is killed doesn't mean it was because they were gay.  We had a Gay man killed last year by his boy friend in a heated domestic.  So is that a hate crime too?


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

granfire said:


> they might not have thrown the first (or any) stone, but even 'mild mannered' Christians have been heard to utter the phrase 'they should be shot' in regard to gay people....



Who?


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## granfire (Dec 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Who?



My dear sweet mother-in-law far starters...yep, good Christian lady...wanted to shoot Melissa Etheridge...for being queer....


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Study your history. Many of the founding fathers were Atheist and Deist. That whole pesky seperation of church and state thing.
> 
> The Middle eastern countries.were based on Islamic principals as well. But we're sure trying to change that due to crimes against human rights aren't we. Countries evolve as do their people.



You might want to study yours"

George Washington:
"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you,  and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would  incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and  obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one  another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and  particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that  he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love  mercy, and to demean [i.e., comport] ourselves with that Charity, humility and  pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of  our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these  things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation."

Read more: http://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/12117#ixzz2oMTcslkr

Thomas Jefferson"
It is in our lives and not our words that our religion must be read.

Ben Franklin at the Constitutional Convention:
I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.  I therefore beg leave to move-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that Service 

[h=1]*Samuel Adams Proclamation*[/h]Commonwealth of Massachusetts

 By the Governor

 A  Proclamation

 For a Day of PUBLIC FASTING, HUMILIATION  and PRAYER

 THE supreme Ruler of the Universe, having been  pleased, in the course of His Providence, to establish the Independence of the  United States of America, and to cause them to assume their rank, amount the  nations of the Earth, and bless them with Liberty, Peace and Plenty; we ought to  be led by Religious feelings of Gratitude; and to walk before Him, in all  Humility, according to His most Holy Law. - But, as the depravity of our Hearts  has, in so many instances drawn us aside from the path of duty, so that we have  frequently offended our Divine and Merciful Benefactor; it is therefore highly  incumbent on us, according to the ancient and laudable practice of our pious  Ancestors, to open the year by a public and solemn Fast. - That with true  repentance and contrition of Heart, we may unitedly implore the forgiveness of  our Sins, through the merits of Jesus Christ, and humbly supplicate our Heavenly  Father, to grant us the aids of His Grace, for the amendment of our Hearts and  Lives, and vouchsafe His smiles upon our temporal concerns:

Read more: http://www.revolutionary-war-and-be...clamation-february-28-1795.html#ixzz2oMVB4VfH


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

granfire said:


> My dear sweet mother-in-law far starters...yep, good Christian lady...wanted to shoot Melissa Etheridge...for being queer....


Then she is also a sinner as are all of us


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## Tames D (Dec 23, 2013)

granfire said:


> why are we talking about this AT ALL?



Because it is MUCH more interesting than peppermint bark.


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## Tgace (Dec 23, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> So the Spanish Inquisition was secular?



http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-truth-about-the-spanish-inquisition



> This image of the Spanish Inquisition is a useful one for those who have little love for the Catholic Church. Anyone wishing to beat the Church about the head and shoulders will not tarry long before grabbing two favorite clubs: the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. I have dealt with the Crusades in*The Real History of the Crusades
> . Now on to the other club.





> Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition*saved*uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.



Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## granfire (Dec 23, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Because it is MUCH more interesting than peppermint bark.



I tell BALLEN!!!! 

that's in the lounge anyhow!


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Because it is MUCH more interesting than peppermint bark.



BAN HAMMER NOW:feedtroll:redeme::moon:


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## granfire (Dec 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Then she is also a sinner as are all of us



Naturally, but a self-righteous one...and that's the problem, right.
The ones who think their sins are justified....


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

granfire said:


> Naturally, but a self-righteous one...and that's the problem, right.
> The ones who think their sins are justified....


We are human after all


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Its always better to have an excuse for the jury no matter how far fetched.  "I killed him cause I could just sounds bad"
> 
> Also half the ones listed have no connection to religion.  Just because a Gay person is killed doesn't mean it was because they were gay.  We had a Gay man killed last year by his boy friend in a heated domestic.  So is that a hate crime too?



Actually, I think it is listed that way.  Hey, I have the choice of wading through each case and looking for the religion tie ins, OR editing photos from the bodypaint shoot I did on Sunday. I'm choosing #2 here.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> We are human after all



Speak for yourself.  I'm Klingon.  I've got the commission paperwork to prove it.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Speak for yourself.  I'm Klingon.  I've got the commission paperwork to prove it.



nuqneH


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## ballen0351 (Dec 23, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Actually, I think it is listed that way.  Hey, I have the choice of wading through each case and looking for the religion tie ins, OR editing photos from the bodypaint shoot I did on Sunday. I'm choosing #2 here.


Ill have to double check but Im almost positive we didn't list it that was


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## crushing (Dec 23, 2013)

Tgace said:


> http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-truth-about-the-spanish-inquisition



I can certainly understand why "A Voice for the Faithful Catholic Laity" would want to cleanse and rewrite the history of the Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition.


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## Tgace (Dec 23, 2013)

crushing said:


> I can certainly understand why "A Voice for the Faithful Catholic Laity" would want to cleanse and rewrite the history of the Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition.



Yawn.






Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Tgace (Dec 23, 2013)

http://www.gopusa.com/freshink/2013...-remembered-what-pays-the-bills/?subscriber=1

Hmmmmm......

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## granfire (Dec 23, 2013)

Tgace said:


> http://www.gopusa.com/freshink/2013...-remembered-what-pays-the-bills/?subscriber=1
> 
> Hmmmmm......
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



did you ever expect anything else?! Ratings and $$$$$$$$$

eff the rest.


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## Tames D (Dec 24, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> BAN HAMMER NOW:feedtroll:redeme::moon:


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## Rumy73 (Dec 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Except this is a country founded on Christian Principals no matter how much people try to pretend its not.



Yeah, like having slaves and stealing Indian land. Amen, Jesus.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Yeah, like having slaves and stealing Indian land. Amen, Jesus.



Actually, those *are* Christian values...

From facebook:


> Dear Phil (duck dynasty) Robertson, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
> a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
> b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
> c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
> ...


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## ballen0351 (Dec 25, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Yeah, like having slaves and stealing Indian land. Amen, Jesus.



No that's more sign of the times then religion.  That's just how things were done.  Only so muchnkand on this little rock no matter where you go someone was there first.  
And plenty of Jesus followers fought to end slavery but hey don't let real history get in the way of a good bash the Christian story lol. Merry Christmas


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## Rumy73 (Dec 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> No that's more sign of the times then religion.  That's just how things were done.  Only so muchnkand on this little rock no matter where you go someone was there first.
> And plenty of Jesus followers fought to end slavery but hey don't let real history get in the way of a good bash the Christian story lol. Merry Christmas



Yes, history wizard, abolitionists were a small minority. And when the Civil War ended, the south went largely unpunished and blacks were terrorized under Jim Crow. Amen.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 25, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Yes, history wizard, abolitionists were a small minority. And when the Civil War ended, the south went largely unpunished and blacks were terrorized under Jim Crow. Amen.



And?  What part of my statement was false?


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## Rumy73 (Dec 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> And?  What part of my statement was false?



Since you want to play dumb, shall I treat you as such?


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## ballen0351 (Dec 25, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Since you want to play dumb, shall I treat you as such?



So Christians didn't fight to end slavery?  I'm a Methodist and John Welsly was trying to end slavery back in the mid 1700s other religious leaders were trying before and long after that.  But again don't let the truth get in your way.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> So Christians didn't fight to end slavery?  I'm a Methodist and John Welsly was trying to end slavery back in the mid 1700s other religious leaders were trying before and long after that.  But again don't let the truth get in your way.



I think the point is that SOME Christians use parts of the bible to support their prejudices while ignoring parts they don't like. Such as the sections endorsing slavery. If you endorse the Old Testament injunction against homosexuality, then you must also, logically, endorse the Old Testament passages I quoted above. 
Since you obviously have not killed yourself for working on Sunday (as is required by the Old Testament) then you're practicing cafeteria religion. Picking and choosing which parts are "right" based in your own preconceived notions of right and wrong, instead of following the Word of God as you are required to do. 

Some Christians did help abolish the atrocity of slavery. Similarly, today, many Christians are helping to abolish the atrocity of bigotry towards homosexuals. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## seasoned (Dec 25, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Yeah, like having slaves and stealing Indian land. Amen, Jesus.



Human element will get you every time................... Along with the freedom of choice thing.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think the point is that SOME Christians use parts of the bible to support their prejudiOignoring parts they don't like. Such as the sections endorsing slavery. If you endorse the Old Testament injunction against homosexuality, then you must also, logically, endorse the Old Testament passages I quoted above.
> Since you obviously have not killed yourself for working on Sunday (as is required by the Old Testament) then you're practicing cafeteria religion. Picking and choosing which parts are "right" based in your own preconceived notions of right and wrong, instead of following the Word of God as you are required to do.
> 
> Some Christians did help abolish the atrocity of slavery. Similarly, today, many Christians are helping to abolish the atrocity of bigotry towards homosexuals.
> ...



I'm not practicing cafeteria anything.  All of your questions are answered in other parts of the bible reading one line and saying "ah ha got you" is just silly.  
It still goes back to a question nobody will answer.  Why do you as a non believer care what I think or believe.  Or in this case why do you care what Phil thinks?  He did call for beating or not hiring gays he said they won't be in heaven.  Well if you don't believe in heaven why do you care if Phil says your not going.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not practicing cafeteria anything.  All of your questions are answered in other parts of the bible reading one line and saying "ah ha got you" is just silly.
> It still goes back to a question nobody will answer.  Why do you as a non believer care what I think or believe.  Or in this case why do you care what Phil thinks?  He did call for beating or not hiring gays he said they won't be in heaven.  Well if you don't believe in heaven why do you care if Phil says your not going.



For the same reasons I'd care if he made the exact same statement, but replaced "gay" with "black". Some things are just wrong.


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## Big Don (Dec 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, those *are* Christian values...
> 
> From facebook:


Isn't that cute, someone stole from the West Wing


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Isn't that cute, someone stole from the West Wing



Isn't that cute. Someone didn't actually address the issue.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> For the same reasons I'd care if he made the exact same statement, but replaced "gay" with "black". Some things are just wrong.



But he didnt .  he said is my belief and this is why.  Well if you don't believe in heaven anyway whats it matter if he says your not going?


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## Tgace (Dec 25, 2013)

*&#8220;Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone&#8217;s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don&#8217;t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.&#8221; -Rick  Warren*

....or that you are a bigot......


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## punisher73 (Dec 26, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think the point is that SOME Christians use parts of the bible to support their prejudices while ignoring parts they don't like. Such as the sections endorsing slavery. If you endorse the Old Testament injunction against homosexuality, then you must also, logically, endorse the Old Testament passages I quoted above.
> Since you obviously have not killed yourself for working on Sunday (as is required by the Old Testament) then you're practicing cafeteria religion. Picking and choosing which parts are "right" based in your own preconceived notions of right and wrong, instead of following the Word of God as you are required to do.
> 
> Some Christians did help abolish the atrocity of slavery. Similarly, today, many Christians are helping to abolish the atrocity of bigotry towards homosexuals.



I see this argument raised ALL the time by people who don't understand the difference between the Old Testament (Torah) and the New Testament and between the covenant between God and the Jews during the OT period and the new covenant between God and us through Jesus.

Simply put:  The Torah was law established for the Jewish people as a nation that had societal prohibitions, legal prohibitions and spiritual prohibitions.  There were 612 laws extrapolated from the original 10 commandments and their interpretations of those 10 laws.  Jesus gave us TWO commandments:  1) Love the Lord, God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.  If you actually read the New Testament, it says time and time again that as Christians were are NOT under the old law (Torah), but under the law of Christ.

So Christians are not "cherry picking" or having a "cafeteria religion", we (as Christians) are not under that law.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 26, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> So Christians didn't fight to end slavery?  I'm a Methodist and John Welsly was trying to end slavery back in the mid 1700s other religious leaders were trying before and long after that.  But again don't let the truth get in your way.



You are ridiculous and have no sense of proportion. The abolitionist movement was a small minority with a divided agenda. The overwhelming Christian majority either supported slavery or some form of institutionalized racism. Nevertheless, after the Civil War ended the nation of Christian values showed no real commitment to the equality of blacks or respect for Indian land. 

Yes, there were some ppl against this trend but very few in context. Ppl point to William Lloyd Garrison as if he was typical; he was exceptional. They do this to feel good about themselves and to avoid the ugly history of Christianity.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 26, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> I see this argument raised ALL the time by people who don't understand the difference between the Old Testament (Torah) and the New Testament and between the covenant between God and the Jews during the OT period and the new covenant between God and us through Jesus.
> 
> Simply put:  The Torah was law established for the Jewish people as a nation that had societal prohibitions, legal prohibitions and spiritual prohibitions.  There were 612 laws extrapolated from the original 10 commandments and their interpretations of those 10 laws.  Jesus gave us TWO commandments:  1) Love the Lord, God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.  If you actually read the New Testament, it says time and time again that as Christians were are NOT under the old law (Torah), but under the law of Christ.
> 
> So Christians are not "cherry picking" or having a "cafeteria religion", we (as Christians) are not under that law.



Well put.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> You are ridiculous and have no sense of proportion. The abolitionist movement was a small minority with a divided agenda. The overwhelming Christian majority either supported slavery or some form of institutionalized racism. Nevertheless, after the Civil War ended the nation of Christian values showed no real commitment to the equality of blacks or respect for Indian land.
> 
> Yes, there were some ppl against this trend but very few in context. Ppl point to William Lloyd Garrison as if he was typical; he was exceptional. They do this to feel good about themselves and to avoid the ugly history of Christianity.


So again nothing I said was not correct.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 26, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> So again nothing I said was not correct.



My assessment stands. You are ignorant and cannot comprehend nuanced, analytical topics. Just like an untrained person cannot run a marathon, an uneducated person typically cannot grasp complexities. You lack the training. Sadly, you think that somehow you are clever, but it comes off as pathetic.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Dec 26, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> I see this argument raised ALL the time by people who don't understand the difference between the Old Testament (Torah) and the New Testament and between the covenant between God and the Jews during the OT period and the new covenant between God and us through Jesus.
> 
> Simply put:  The Torah was law established for the Jewish people as a nation that had societal prohibitions, legal prohibitions and spiritual prohibitions.  There were 612 laws extrapolated from the original 10 commandments and their interpretations of those 10 laws.  Jesus gave us TWO commandments:  1) Love the Lord, God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.  If you actually read the New Testament, it says time and time again that as Christians were are NOT under the old law (Torah), but under the law of Christ.
> 
> So Christians are not "cherry picking" or having a "cafeteria religion", we (as Christians) are not under that law.



There is significant debate about that point.  We beat it around a bit back in 2011. A few times. lol.
Getting back into it here would drift the thread, short version is some say Christians aren't under OT law, some say they still are.  I'm in the 2nd camp based on my research.  BUT!
If the OT with it's 10 Commandments and patchwork of other laws are no longer in effect for Christians, then I'd say there's nothing in the NT attributed to Jesus or the 2 Commandments he gave that apply to homosexuality. 

BUT!   That's also part of the other debates.

So, rather than rehash those here (though kicking old threads back up is fine), I have 1 question.

IF! the Old Testament is not in effect for Christians as you say, and the 2 laws that are in effect are "1) Love the Lord, God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself." why would homosexual actions be considered a sin?

quoting Wikipedia


> In the New Testament  (NT) there are at least three passages that may refer to homosexual  activity: Romans 1:26&#8211;27, 1 Corinthians 6:9&#8211;10, and 1 Timothy 1:9&#8211;10. A  fourth passage, Jude 1:7, is often interpreted as referring to  homosexuality. None of the four gospels mentions the subject directly, and there is nothing about homosexuality in the Book of Acts, in Hebrews, in Revelation, or in the letters attributed to James, Peter, and John.
> The New Testament refers to "sexual immorality" on multiple occasions  including Matthew 15:19, Mark 7:21, Acts 15:20 and 29, and many more.  The definition of "sexual immorality" is disputed among scholars, but it  is often included in lists along with adultery (e.g. Matthew 15:19)  indicating it is much more than just adultery. Many scholars[SUP][_weasel words_][/SUP]  believe that everything in Leviticus referring to immoral "sexual  relations" would be included in the New Testament's "sexual immorality".  As such, homosexuality would be included in all of these passages which  condemn sexual immorality[SUP][_original research?_][/SUP].
> The presumed references to 'homosexuality' itself in the New  Testament hinge on the interpretation of three specific Greek words,  arsenokoit&#275;s (&#7936;&#961;&#963;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#954;&#959;&#943;&#964;&#951;&#962, malakos (&#956;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#954;&#972;&#962, and porneia.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP]  While it is not disputed that the two Greek words concern sexual  relations between men (and possibly between women), some academics  interpret the relevant passages as a prohibition against pederasty or prostitution rather than homosexuality per se, while other scholars have presented counter arguments.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] The historical context of the passages has also been a subject of debate.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_New_Testament

Seems based on this there's a question of translations, intents and who even said what.  Even if there were 4 passages, it's a minor talking point, given no attribution directly to Jesus, just his followers. Now, being a martial arts board, I know none of us would ever cite some late grandmasters 1st generation blackbelts and hold that something they said but he didn't was the rule in the art. 

Regardless though, I look at it this way: I don't see anything wrong with it, it's not for me though, and 2 gays doing whatever they do be it marry or line dance, doesn't effect me so why worry?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 26, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> I see this argument raised ALL the time by people who don't understand the difference between the Old Testament (Torah) and the New Testament and between the covenant between God and the Jews during the OT period and the new covenant between God and us through Jesus.
> 
> Simply put:  The Torah was law established for the Jewish people as a nation that had societal prohibitions, legal prohibitions and spiritual prohibitions.  There were 612 laws extrapolated from the original 10 commandments and their interpretations of those 10 laws.  Jesus gave us TWO commandments:  1) Love the Lord, God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.  If you actually read the New Testament, it says time and time again that as Christians were are NOT under the old law (Torah), but under the law of Christ.
> 
> So Christians are not "cherry picking" or having a "cafeteria religion", we (as Christians) are not under that law.



That's just it. I *do* understand this. But not all Christian theologians agree on it. So, you have one of two options.
1 - You are bound by the Old Testament, in which case you can claim biblical support for opposition to homosexuality, but must also accept the biblical support for slavery and such.
or
2 - You are not bound by the Old Testament, in which case you have no biblical basis for your opposition to homosexuality and need to deal with the fact that it is a *personal* opinion, not a religious conviction.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> You are ridiculous and have no sense of proportion. The abolitionist movement was a small minority with a divided agenda. The overwhelming Christian majority either supported slavery or some form of institutionalized racism. Nevertheless, after the Civil War ended the nation of Christian values showed no real commitment to the equality of blacks or respect for Indian land.
> 
> Yes, there were some ppl against this trend but very few in context. Ppl point to William Lloyd Garrison as if he was typical; he was exceptional. They do this to feel good about themselves and to avoid the ugly history of Christianity.


In the end, that little movement started a civil war. It was big enough.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 26, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> In the end, that little movement started a civil war. It was big enough.



Perhaps we can stop persecuting homosexuals without the need for another civil war. Wouldn't that be nice?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's just it. I *do* understand this. But not all Christian theologians agree on it. So, you have one of two options.
> 1 - You are bound by the Old Testament, in which case you can claim biblical support for opposition to homosexuality, but must also accept the biblical support for slavery and such.
> or
> 2 - You are not bound by the Old Testament, in which case you have no biblical basis for your opposition to homosexuality and need to deal with the fact that it is a *personal* opinion, not a religious conviction.


As my Apartment managers constantly remind me, "Love thy neighbor" does not mean, have sex with all your neighbors.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Perhaps we can stop persecuting homosexuals without the need for another civil war. Wouldn't that be nice?


Saying, "Nero played the fiddle while Rome burned" was just another way of saying he was a dancing fairy that couldn't run the Empire. So this all boils down to Priorities. This is been with us, and will be with us until we have gone extinct.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 26, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> As my Apartment managers constantly remind me, "Love thy neighbor" does not mean, have sex with all your neighbors.



Of course not. That would be inappropriate. You should only have sex with the ones that are nice. :rofl:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course not. That would be inappropriate. You should only have sex with the ones that are nice. :rofl:


That's what I told 'em!


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> My assessment stands. You are ignorant and cannot comprehend nuanced, analytical topics. Just like an untrained person cannot run a marathon, an uneducated person typically cannot grasp complexities. You lack the training. Sadly, you think that somehow you are clever, but it comes off as pathetic.


You need a hug.  
But everything I said was correct.  You can't defeat the point so you resort to name calling.
The point being religious leaders of the time started the movement to end slavery.  Of course it started small all change starts small and grows from there.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> You need a hug.
> But everything I said was correct.  You can't defeat the point so you resort to name calling.
> The point being religious leaders of the time started the movement to end slavery.  Of course it started small all change starts small and grows from there.


I am sorry but, for you, this subject is inconthiebable.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 26, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am sorry but, for you, this subject is inconthiebable.



Huh?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Huh?


Never mind.


----------



## Carol (Dec 26, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am sorry but, for you, this subject is inconthiebable.



That word.......


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 26, 2013)

Ok


----------



## Rumy73 (Dec 26, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> You need a hug.
> But everything I said was correct.  You can't defeat the point so you resort to name calling.
> The point being religious leaders of the time started the movement to end slavery.  Of course it started small all change starts small and grows from there.



Yes, I will take a hug and you can take some college history classes.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Yes, I will take a hug and you can take some college history classes.



Perhaps you need to come with me

http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/1992/issue33/3321.html


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## Rumy73 (Dec 26, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Perhaps you need to come with me
> 
> http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/1992/issue33/3321.html[/
> 
> You really do not get it. I did not expect you to understand. You never went through the rigors of learning analysis and demonstrating a written intellectual argument. I described you as ignorant, not because I was making a personal attack; rather, I said so, as you never had the concentrated experience of weighing information, contextualizing it and making a written argument. This is the heart of academics. All of this will remain invisible and meaningless if you continue to embrace ignorance; however, your life and mind will be immensely enhanced even by attending community college.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 26, 2013)

> Perhaps you need to come with me
> 
> http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/1992/issue33/3321.html[/
> 
> You really do not get it. I did not expect you to understand. You never went through the rigors of learning analysis and demonstrating a written intellectual argument. I described you as ignorant, not because I was making a personal attack; rather, I said so, as you never had the concentrated experience of weighing information, contextualizing it and making a written argument. This is the heart of academics. All of this will remain invisible and meaningless if you continue to embrace ignorance; however, your life and mind will be immensely enhanced even by attending community college.



So again you can't touch my point so instead of debating the issue you take shots at me


----------



## Rumy73 (Dec 26, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> So again you can't touch my point so instead of debating the issue you take shots at me



I addressed the point. I am speaking in a non-mean spirited way. You know, ppl in the USMC will say: ppl cannot understand what it means to be a Marine. I do not take offense from this, likewise you should not take offense.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I addressed the point. I am speaking in a non-mean spirited way. You know, ppl in the USMC will say: ppl cannot understand what it means to be a Marine. I do not take offense from this, likewise you should not take offense.


You have yet to prove my point wrong.  And newsflash I have taken many college classes I said I don't have a degree.  I've attended numerous classes at Johns Hopkins University public safety leadership program.  I had to stop when I went undercover because my schedule changed too much.  I've also attended classes at Costal Carolina University when I was in the Marine Corps.  So again why not get back to the topic and not my personal life.  So again my point still stands many of the people leading the fight against slavery were religious leaders.


----------



## The Last Legionary (Dec 26, 2013)




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## Master Dan (Dec 27, 2013)

Just want to give another point not discussed in all this. I listened to a talk or sermon if you like that the Duck Dynasty gave at church and he was quoting scripture and he seemed more concerned with general infidelity outside the marriage and then also did hit on the OT related to what he thought was condemnation of Gays? On an interesting note I think A&E made a mistake taking such action to pull him because if you look at the listener base of the show they are not LGBT audience and say nothing in general as a rule against them except not wanting to wear certain clothing items. Some retailers even reacted by pulling products and customers complained to have them put back in the stores and sales have increase over 25% since the controversy. 

With regards to religion my church I will not mention has a proclamation of the family they feel is important but at the same time councils non judgment or hate of any person or group and that every person has free agency and their decisions are between them and god and we should mind our own business. I do wonder about those who feel they were born gay or Trans Gender how can they be blamed for something that seems to be they were born with I see nothing in Christ's talks that would have caused him to condemn them as a general group?? In our state we had some kind of City ordinance that dealt with veterans but tagged on an anti discrimination section related to LGBT people and some churches got very hostile and organized with red shirts and such very hateful even violent. The bill passed and nobody in the last three years has been the worse for it.

Getting back to slavery my church had a section from the 1800's related to sharing the gospel that it should not be done to anyone who was a slave to make them upset or unwilling to serve their master or to cause public unrest, I found that offensive but this was pre civil war and our church has always tried to be non political and believed in supporting the law of the land?? 

Don't beat me up on the accurate number but pre civil war the United States net worth some where around 3 trillion dollars was in major part based on owning slaves as an asset. I had no idea?


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 27, 2013)

Master Dan said:


> Just want to give another point not discussed in all this. I listened to a talk or sermon if you like that the Duck Dynasty gave at church and he was quoting scripture and he seemed more concerned with general infidelity outside the marriage and then also did hit on the OT related to what he thought was condemnation of Gays?



Right and if people look at what he actually said in the GQ article Gays were only one part of what we mentioned but it seems to be the only part getting play.  I guess the cheating husbands and wives are too worried about getting caught to be "outraged"


----------



## Big Don (Dec 27, 2013)

Master Dan said:


> Getting back to slavery my church had a section from the 1800's related to sharing the gospel that it should not be done to anyone who was a slave to make them upset or unwilling to serve their master or to cause public unrest, I found that offensive but this was pre civil war and our church has always tried to be non political and believed in supporting the law of the land??


Excuse me, but, how friggin old are you claiming to be?


----------



## Steve (Dec 27, 2013)

Tgace said:


> *Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someones lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You dont have to compromise convictions to be compassionate. -Rick  Warren*
> 
> ....or that you are a bigot......



Better make sure billc see that.  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Master Dan (Dec 27, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Excuse me, but, how friggin old are you claiming to be?



Its the proclamation document that was 1800's can't say exact year don't have in front of me right now but your right maybe I am friggin old


----------



## Coker101 (Jan 6, 2014)

Makalakumu said:


> For those of you who don't know anything about this, here's the skinny.  One of the members of A&Es popular Duck Dynasty program gave an interview to GQ magazine.  In the interview, the interviewee made several anti-gay comments that were religious based and were offensive to a large segment of the population.  Now, there is a media circus surrounding this and stores across the country are pulling Duck Dynasty products off the shelves in fear of boycotts and other bad press.
> 
> Here is what is NOT being talked about by the media though.
> 
> ...



There is no "problem".  He is free to believe and say whatever he likes.  I mean we have rap songs bragging about killing people and selling crack all kinds of other stuff but we are supposed to be more offended because he's quoting the Bible about gay acts being a sin?

The media in general is so far left that ANYTHING gay related gets turned into a crazy fiasco.  I mean half the anchors on CNN are openly gay and it's almost all they talk about.

And you know, being a Christian myself I support what he said and his option to say what he likes.  What's your answer for this so called "problem"?  We should be like communist China and take away everyone's rights to worship as they like?  

I have a gay sister who I love very much and I don't judge her...it's not my place.  Everyone is free to live the way they like but I don't support the gay life style or gay marriage.  If you want to believe I'm a bigot for supporting the Bible, knock yourself out.  I don't care what you, CNN or anyone else might think.  

Just kills me how people are all about freedom of speech...then they hear something they don't like and "OMG that's so offensive".  I hate violent rap music with a passion and find songs about killing people, selling  drugs and screwing hoes to be a whole lot worse than someone quoting the Bible about gay people going to hell.  But I know....that's just not PC enough for America these days.


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## Coker101 (Jan 6, 2014)

Makalakumu said:


> The Christian God declared homosexuality as an abomination. Abominations are to be put to death. God specifically KILLS homosexuals.
> 
> Wouldn't a true Christian obey all of Gods divinely inspired word?



God does not tell anyone to kill gay people though.  In fact Christ tells everyone to love people who sin.  And Jesus said "all sin can be forgiven"....gay actions being just one of may things that can cause you to not be saved at the end of your life if you're not trusting in Christ for forgiveness.  You say "God specifically KILLS homosexuals".....he says the same thing about all sin not just living a gay lifestyle. 

If you don't believe in God then how does this matter?

And out of curiously if a gay person said that straight people were going to hell would anyone care?


----------



## Steve (Jan 6, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> There is no "problem".  He is free to believe and say whatever he likes.  I mean we have rap songs bragging about killing people and selling crack all kinds of other stuff but we are supposed to be more offended because he's quoting the Bible about gay acts being a sin?
> 
> The media in general is so far left that ANYTHING gay related gets turned into a crazy fiasco.  I mean half the anchors on CNN are openly gay and it's almost all they talk about.
> 
> ...


Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say what you want without any potential repercussion.  This guy clearly hasn't broken any laws.  This is simply a situation where he said some things and there were consequences.  The first amendment is irrelevant to this situation.  It just doesn't apply, and it's clear from your post that you're caught up in the political rhetoric.  

The network is making a business decision.  That's what this is.  Not a lefty/righty issue.  Not a media issue.  It's about a company assessing whether this guy is going to make them more money than he will cost them.  Is his inflammatory behavior quirky, trendy and lucrative?  Or is it offensive and costly?  Often, the decision is arbitrary.  

Bottom line, this is an employee/employer decision.  And, as a conservative, aren't you glad that the employer has the right to suspend or terminate an employee?  I am.


----------



## Coker101 (Jan 6, 2014)

Steve said:


> Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say what you want without any potential repercussion.  This guy clearly hasn't broken any laws.  This is simply a situation where he said some things and there were consequences.  The first amendment is irrelevant to this situation.  It just doesn't apply, and it's clear from your post that you're caught up in the political rhetoric.
> 
> The network is making a business decision.  That's what this is.  Not a lefty/righty issue.  Not a media issue.  It's about a company assessing whether this guy is going to make them more money than he will cost them.  Is his inflammatory behavior quirky, trendy and lucrative?  Or is it offensive and costly?  Often, the decision is arbitrary.
> 
> Bottom line, this is an employee/employer decision.  And, as a conservative, aren't you glad that the employer has the right to suspend or terminate an employee?  I am.



I agree with everything you're saying.  They have the right to can him if they like just like he's free to say what he likes...I never argued that.  If I were him I would expect that the station would be having a fit and that I might get fired.  I'm not even sure where you're coming from with your reply as I never said anything about The first amendment.  

My issue with the original post is saying that someone is a bigot for believing in or quoting the Bible.  And the whole "God want's to kill gay people" comment is just so absurd. And the fact that he almost sounds like he would ban The Bible if he could because you know, Christians are so terrible and all.


----------



## Steve (Jan 6, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> I agree with everything you're saying.  They have the right to can him if they like just like he's free to say what he likes...I never argued that.  If I were him I would expect that the station would be having a fit and that I might get fired.  I'm not even sure where you're coming from with your reply as I never said anything about The first amendment.


when you referred to freedom of speech, you weren't referencing the first amendment? 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 6, 2014)

The 1st Amendment has nothing to do with a private business (A&E) censoring an employee (Mr Ducky).


----------



## Coker101 (Jan 6, 2014)

Steve said:


> when you referred to freedom of speech, you weren't referencing the first amendment?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



I was not suggesting that the station was wrong in their decision or that what they were doing was somehow an attack on his freedom of speech.  That was not my point at all and I think they were doing whatever benefited their station and that is exactly what I would have expected them to do in this ridiculous politically correct society we live in. 

When I was referring to the freedom of speech I was not speaking about Duck Dynasty, I was talking about the original posters attack on the Duck Dynasty guys beliefs or more so calling him a bigot for quoting the Bible.  Sure he's free to call the Duck Dynasty guy whatever he likes but it's a bit hypocritical in my opinion.  It's the "think the way I think or you're a closed minded bigot".  Who's the one that's not being tolerant here?  Is it the guy who quoted the Bible or the guy calling him a bigot, blaming most bigotry on Christianity and acting like he would like to eradicate the Bible all together?  Besides there are so many other things said that are so much worse (like the rap music I mentioned earlier) than quoting the Bible about gay people...besides if you don't believe in the Bible why would this effect you anyway? 

And again the media has this same attitude...if you don't support gay mirage you're automatically labeled a bigot...and yes I have heard that exact statement on CNN more than once.  So yeah it's the whole believe what we/the media/popular society/Hollywood believes and if you don't then you're a terrible person.  I don't support gay marriage but I don't go around saying gay people are terrible people.  That's not my place to judge people....there is a difference between not supporting something and being a bigot.

You know, I knew I should not have come in here....I like the MT forums and want to continue to come here w/o drama.  So I likely will make this my last post on this subject....if I can resist.


----------



## Steve (Jan 6, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> I was not suggesting that the station was wrong in their decision or that what they were doing was somehow an attack on his freedom of speech.  That was not my point at all and I think they were doing whatever benefited their station and that is exactly what I would have expected them to do in this ridiculous politically correct society we live in.


How politically correct can our society be if people are listening to rap songs about drug use and having gratuitous sex with promiscuous women (with big butts)?  You're ranting about political correctness even as you give an example of something that isn't PC.  Giving some mixed signals here.  Just as you're ranting about freedom of speech and then suggesting that your point isn't about freedom of speech.  I'm just trying to follow you.  

My personal opinion is that whenever someone starts going on about political correctness, it usually boils down to, "You guys aren't offended by the things that I find offensive and it makes me sad."  You're offended by rap music.  Fine.  Knock yourself out.  Other people are offended by this guy.  


> When I was referring to the freedom of speech I was not speaking about Duck Dynasty, I was talking about the original posters attack on the Duck Dynasty guys beliefs or more so calling him a bigot for quoting the Bible.


The guy on Duck Dynasty's freedom of speech was in no way impinged by Malakalumu's voicing of his own opinions.  





> Sure he's free to call the Duck Dynasty guy whatever he likes but it's a bit hypocritical in my opinion.  It's the "think the way I think or you're a closed minded bigot".


Well, I don't know.  Bigotry is actually pretty easy to identify objectively.  





> Who's the one that's not being tolerant here?  Is it the guy who quoted the Bible or the guy calling him a bigot, blaming most bigotry on Christianity and acting like he would like to eradicate the Bible all together?  Besides there are so many other things said that are so much worse (like the rap music I mentioned earlier) than quoting the Bible about gay people...besides if you don't believe in the Bible why would this effect you anyway?


LOL.  Again with the rap music.  So, are you going to own up to your own hypocrisy?  For what it's worth, I think you're perfectly entitled to have whatever opinion about rap music you want, even if you're doing exactly the same thing to an entire genre of music that you're accusing the OP of doing to your religion.  





> And again the media has this same attitude...if you don't support gay mirage you're automatically labeled a bigot...and yes I have heard that exact statement on CNN more than once.  So yeah it's the whole believe what we/the media/popular society/Hollywood believes and if you don't then you're a terrible person.  I don't support gay marriage but I don't go around saying gay people are terrible people.  That's not my place to judge people....there is a difference between not supporting something and being a bigot.


Which media?  Do you mean Fox News?  Or the Wall Street Journal?  Or Breitbart, Drudge, or...  Oh... wait. You mean the media you DON'T like...  I get it...





> You know, I knew I should not have come in here....I like the MT forums and want to continue to come here w/o drama.  So I likely will make this my last post on this subject....if I can resist.


  Might be a good idea.  I get fed up in the Study fairly often and take frequent breaks.


----------



## Instructor (Jan 7, 2014)

For any given statement, stance, religion, or lifestyle you can find a group of people who are in support and a group of people who object.  I love my country in that we can all live here together.


----------



## Coker101 (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve said:


> How politically correct can our society be if people are listening to rap songs about drug use and having gratuitous sex with promiscuous women (with big butts)?  You're ranting about political correctness even as you give an example of something that isn't PC.  Giving some mixed signals here.  Just as you're ranting about freedom of speech and then suggesting that your point isn't about freedom of speech.  I'm just trying to follow you.
> 
> My personal opinion is that whenever someone starts going on about political correctness, it usually boils down to, "You guys aren't offended by the things that I find offensive and it makes me sad."  You're offended by rap music.  Fine.  Knock yourself out.  Other people are offended by this guy.
> The guy on Duck Dynasty's freedom of speech was in no way impinged by Malakalumu's voicing of his own opinions.  Well, I don't know.  Bigotry is actually pretty easy to identify objectively.  LOL.  Again with the rap music.  So, are you going to own up to your own hypocrisy?  For what it's worth, I think you're perfectly entitled to have whatever opinion about rap music you want, even if you're doing exactly the same thing to an entire genre of music that you're accusing the OP of doing to your religion.  Which media?  Do you mean Fox News?  Or the Wall Street Journal?  Or Breitbart, Drudge, or...  Oh... wait. You mean the media you DON'T like...  I get it...  Might be a good idea.  I get fed up in the Study fairly often and take frequent breaks.



At work so short replies here.


Somehow speaking incredibly disrespectful and occasionally violent about women is ok as long as it&#8217;s in a rap song but as soon as a Christian quotes the Bible about acts of homosexuality being a sin then it&#8217;s an act of bigotry and all over the news as if some terrible crime had been committed.  I think there is a double standard in there somewhere.  And this is the typical attitude of the majority of the media with the exception of a few.  And by the way the only major media outlets you mentions were Fox and The Wall Street Journal, the others are more of an underground media source.  If you&#8217;re trying to suggest that that there are as many &#8220;right&#8221; leaning media sources as there are &#8220;left&#8221; you&#8217;re are in some serious denial.

The rap music was just an example of the double standard, I&#8217;m not all hung up on it or anything....though when people drive by blasting it from their car and my daughter hears it, it&#8217;s a bit aggravating.  But again the OP is suggesting that Christianity is the source of prejudice, bullying and violence yet it teaches none of those things.  I just used rap music as an example of something that brags about all of those issues.....but no one&#8217;s complaining about that.  Again this was just the first example that came to mind.  

I&#8217;m not being a hypocrite in my example of rap music, just stating the facts...and yes most rap music is exactly what I said it was.  I grew up on that crap....I remember when &#8220;gangster rap&#8221; started because I was a teen at the time.  It would seem to me that kids listening to this kind of &#8220;music&#8221; would lead to more prejudice, bullying and violence than the Christian faith especially considering the New Testament is about love and forgiveness.  So why are people demonizing the Christian faith?  I don&#8217;t get it....

In the end I love everyone of every color and sexual preference and yes even those rap &#8220;artist&#8221; that say terrible things in their &#8220;music&#8221;.  And this is supposed to be the attitude of all Christians because it&#8217;s what&#8217;s taught in the Bible.  So yeah saying that &#8220;Christianity is the source of prejudice, bullying and violence&#8221; really rubs me the wrong way...that&#8217;s not what we are about.


----------



## Instructor (Jan 7, 2014)

*"Lord Give Me A Sign"

*_[Intro:]_
Yeah..Uh
In the name of Jesus
(that's right)
No weapon formed against me shall prosper
(preach)
And every tongue that shall rise against me in judgment thou shalt condemn
(preach)
(Lord give me a sign)
For this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord
(preach)
and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.
(preach)
Amen

_[Verse 1]_
Lord Give me a Sign!
I really need to talk to you Lord
Since the last time we talked the walk has been hard
Now I know you haven't left me
But I feel like I'm alone
I'm a big boy now but I'm still not grown
And I'm still going through it
Pain and the hurt
Soaking up trouble like rain in the dirt
And I know!
Only I can stop the rain
Wit just the mention of my saviors name
IN THE NAME OF JESUS!
Devil I rebuke you for what I go through
And trying make me do what I used to
But all that stops right here
As long as the Lords in my life I will have no fear
I will know no pain from the light to the dark
I will show no shame spit it right from the heart
Cause its right from the start
But you held me down
And ain't nothing they can tell me now
Lord give me a sign!

_[Hook:]_
Let me know whats on your mind
Let me know what I'm gone find
It's all in time
Show me how to teach the mind
Show me how to reach the blind
Lord give me a sign!

Show me what I got to do
To bring me closer to you
Cause I'm gonna go through
What ever you want me to
Just let me know what to do
Lord give me a sign!

_[Verse 2:]_
Please show me something
I'm tired of talking to him
Knowing he fronting
Crying bout life ain't nothing
But you either be the one mad cause you trapped, or the one hunting
Trapped in your own mind waiting on the Lord
Or hunting wit the word that cuts like a sword
The spoken word is stronger than the strongest man
Carries the whole world like the strongest hand
Through the trials and tribulations you never let us down
JESUS!
I know your here with us now
JESUS!
I know your still wit us now
Keep it real wit us now
I wanna feel show me how
Let me take your hand, guide me
Ill walk slow but stay right beside me
Devil's tryna find me
Hide me, hold up I take that back
Protect me and give me the strength to fight back!

_[Hook:]_
Let me know whats on your mind
Let me know what I'm gone find
It's all in time
Show me how to teach the mind
Show me how to reach the blind
Lord give me a sign!

Show me what I got to do
To bring me closer to you
Cause I'm gonna go through
What ever you want me to
Just let me know what to do
Lord give me a sign!

_[Verse 3:]_
Life or death
Live or die
I will never live a lie
I'm going there cause I try
I wont quit until I die
I'm gone make it wrong or right
Make it through the darkest night
When the morning comes you'll see
All I have is God in me
(Lord give me a sign!)

_[Outro:]_
No weapon formed against me shall prosper
For this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord
In the name of Jesus
Lord give me a sign
Amen


DMX


----------



## Coker101 (Jan 7, 2014)

Instructor said:


> *"Lord Give Me A Sign"
> 
> *_[Intro:]_
> Yeah..Uh
> ...




lol...not sure what you're trying to show here but there are a ton of songs from him that I can't even post the lyrics because I would be banned.  The one you posted I'm guessing is the only one of it's kind from him.  I could hundreds if not thousands of song exactly like I said.

Here you go....feel free to sift through here and find as many songs as you like from him that are similar to the one you posted.  Good luck with that. 

http://ohhla.com/YFA_dmx.html

Besides I don't want to get wrapped up in the whole rap thing, it was used more as an example...that's it.


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## Instructor (Jan 7, 2014)

I think this is a good example of a young man who is reaching out in his life and through his music for something greater than himself namely Christian faith. I actually feel the same as you regarding rap music and I don't normally like it at all. But when I read your post about it this song popped into my head!  The point is that people grow and change throughout their life. Sometimes what is called for is simple patience and understanding for people who don't necessarily see the world the same as we do, not judgement.


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## Coker101 (Jan 7, 2014)

I agee but I was not judging at all.  Just pointing out that rap music for example would seem to be a lot more likely to cause the issues the OP was talking about.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> At work so short replies here.
> 
> 
> Somehow speaking incredibly disrespectful and occasionally violent about women is ok as long as it&#8217;s in a rap song but as soon as a Christian quotes the Bible about acts of homosexuality being a sin then it&#8217;s an act of bigotry and all over the news as if some terrible crime had been committed.  I think there is a double standard in there somewhere.  And this is the typical attitude of the majority of the media with the exception of a few.  And by the way the only major media outlets you mentions were Fox and The Wall Street Journal, the others are more of an underground media source.  If you&#8217;re trying to suggest that that there are as many &#8220;right&#8221; leaning media sources as there are &#8220;left&#8221; you&#8217;re are in some serious denial.
> ...


For what it's worth, I was also a teen in the 80s, and one of a minority of white kids at a predominately black, urban school.   But that's kind of beside the point.

The point is that "Political Correctness" is really about what offends other people that doesn't offend you.  My opinion is that political correctness is nonsense.  You are offended by rap music.  Fine.  Your opinion is perfectly valid.  But, to others you're just being politically correct.  Other people are offended by the stuff said by the duck dynasty guy.  You're not.  It's the same thing.

The phrase, "None of us is as dumb as all of us," comes to mind.  I like a LOT of rap.  I always have.  I don't care for all of it, but I'm reluctant to discount an entire genre of music with such a broad brush.  It is easy to point to just about every other genre of popular music and identify the same themes.  There is a reason, after all, that the saying isn't, "Sex, Drugs and Hip Hop."   The things you point out are definitely a part of a sub-culture within rap/hip hop, but the themes are not present in every song, presented by every artist and aren't representative of the entire genre.  

In exactly the same way, I would be reluctant to paint an entire religion with such a broad brush.  There are many themes present within the Christian faith.  Identifying those themes and addressing them isn't the same thing as saying, "All Christians are bigots."


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## Tgace (Jan 7, 2014)

"Political Correctness" is really more about a self-imposed "censorship lite" out of fear of offending some group.

...regardless of if it actually offends anybody or not.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2014)

Tgace said:


> "Political Correctness" is really more about a self-imposed "censorship lite" out of fear of offending some group.
> 
> ...regardless of if it actually offends anybody or not.


I disagree.  Whenever someone points out what they think is PC, they're usually just saying, "That doesn't offend me, and so it shouldn't offend you."  

regarding rap, just a plug for a group I like, Nappy Roots.  Generally positive, and they don't glorify gangs, thuggery or violence against anyone.  There are some drug references, but they're not the focus and I'd argue less overt than in most popular songs regardless of genre.  Good Day is my favorite.


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## Tgace (Jan 7, 2014)

Mr Webster thinks:

*politically correct*

_adjective_: agreeing with the idea that people should be careful to not use language or behave in a way that could offend a particular group of people

*:*  conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated


...what people mean when THEY use the term could be anything.


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## crushing (Jan 7, 2014)

Tgace said:


> "Political Correctness" is really more about a self-imposed "censorship lite" out of fear of offending some group.
> 
> ...regardless of if it actually offends anybody or not.




I know I do it.  For example, over the recent holiday season I felt more compelled to wish people a "Merry Christmas" rather than "Happy  Holidays" so as to not offend some of the more think skinned yet belligerent types that take offense at the perfectly fine phrase 'Happy Holidays.'


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## Coker101 (Jan 7, 2014)

crushing said:


> I know I do it.  For example, over the recent holiday season I felt more compelled to wish people a "Merry Christmas" rather than "Happy  Holidays" so as to not offend some of the more think skinned yet belligerent types that take offense at the perfectly fine phrase 'Happy Holidays.'



I worked at a place some 4 or 5 years ago that would not let management use the phrase "marry Christmas"...regular employees could but management could not.  I remember right before the last day of work before Christmas our bosses boss came around and told everyone "Happy Holidays" and I repeatedly said "marry Christmas" trying to get him to say it....lol, he wouldn't.

But then again this was a pretty big company (pipeline) and they were so over the top it was just stupid.  We even had to go to "diversity training"....as if everyone were so stupid they would have no idea that racial/religious/whatever attacks might be offensive to someone.

They also went on a hiring freeze for white males...kid you not.  My boss told me he was told to sift through resumes and to only interview people who he thought were minorities or females.  Our group ended up hiring 2 females and 3 black guys.  All of them were great people too and two of them ended up being good friends of mine.  But I was floored they went as far as to purposely not hire white men.  Guess they had a quota to fill, I don't know.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2014)

crushing said:


> I know I do it.  For example, over the recent holiday season I felt more compelled to wish people a "Merry Christmas" rather than "Happy  Holidays" so as to not offend some of the more think skinned yet belligerent types that take offense at the perfectly fine phrase 'Happy Holidays.'


Interestingly, though, those same people would accuse you of being politically correct if you DID say, "Happy Holidays."   Damned if you do.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> They also went on a hiring freeze for white males...kid you not.  My boss told me he was told to sift through resumes and to only interview people who he thought were minorities or females.  Our group ended up hiring 2 females and 3 black guys.  All of them were great people too and two of them ended up being good friends of mine.  But I was floored they went as far as to purposely not hire white men.  Guess they had a quota to fill, I don't know.


If true and as blatant as it sounds, your boss and your old company are lucky that none of the white, male applicants chose to pursue a claim.


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## Coker101 (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve said:


> I disagree.  Whenever someone points out what they think is PC, they're usually just saying, "That doesn't offend me, and so it shouldn't offend you."
> 
> regarding rap, just a plug for a group I like, Nappy Roots.  Generally positive, and they don't glorify gangs, thuggery or violence against anyone.  There are some drug references, but they're not the focus and I'd argue less overt than in most popular songs regardless of genre.  Good Day is my favorite.



I have to admit they are pretty good.  The second song reminds me of Bone Thugs who I loved back in the day.  First song is also good...the guy in the green shirt at the beginning sounds a lot like Ice Cube from back in the day.

I was a huge 2Pac and Biggie fan....but then the anger and violence in 2Pac's music started to turn me off.  Then the sex talk from Biggie eventually turned me off too.  Now I can't listen to either of them because of those things and no one has caught my attention enough to want to listen to rap since.


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## Coker101 (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve said:


> If true and as blatant as it sounds, your boss and your old company are lucky that none of the white, male applicants chose to pursue a claim.



I'm not sure.  I don't know what the rules are now but I believe at the time, and it might still apply, that you had to have a % of minorities or you could be fined or not get some kind of tax write-off or some such stuff....I don't remember the exact situation.


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