# The Essence of your kung fu



## DaveB (Jul 25, 2017)

What are the core ideas around which your kungfu is built?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 25, 2017)

A rooted but dynamic stance, used to deliver power through body rotation.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2017)

Strong / rooted stance, Unified body movement to generate power, Advanced Footwork, Endurance, and  Patience.   This is the minimum breakdown in which I build my kung fu.  The first 4 are found within the 3 systems that make up Jow Ga kung fu.   The last one is not so much a core of the systems but the core of my philosophy in which I build my own skills.  It applies to everything from training to fighting.  Things like not being too eager to attack and not rushing training would fall under the patience category.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 25, 2017)

move fast, strike hard.  grasp/seize , press and wrap to control the opponent to dominate the action.


----------



## clfsean (Jul 25, 2017)

Hulk Smash ...


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 25, 2017)

clfsean said:


> Hulk Smash ...


Pretty much, yeah that sums it up.


----------



## clfsean (Jul 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Pretty much, yeah that sums it up.



I mean FC & I are in related arts so there's the "correct answer" for the core philosophy for both us that we share, but when you distill it down ... Hulk Smash.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 25, 2017)

Boot to the head


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2017)

DaveB said:


> What are the core ideas around which your kungfu is built?


Not to let my opponent to punch on my head.


----------



## Phobius (Jul 26, 2017)

Every day be better than the last.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 27, 2017)

I forgot to ask what style you do as well?


----------



## DaveB (Jul 27, 2017)

I was wondering about this as I have a vague idea about the Tiger-crane combination style I practice, but nothing I can put into words.

Hakka styles seem to have similar ideas behind them, so I'm especially curious to hear from the southern stylists.


----------



## clfsean (Jul 27, 2017)

Lama Pai


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 27, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I was wondering about this as I have a vague idea about the Tiger-crane combination style I practice, but nothing I can put into words.
> 
> Hakka styles seem to have similar ideas behind them, so I'm especially curious to hear from the southern stylists.


since me and you do similar stuff, i am curious as well.  can you answer your own post question for me.


----------



## Phobius (Jul 27, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I forgot to ask what style you do as well?


 
Wing Tsun and BJJ at the moment.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2017)

Not a southern stylist, but my sifu learned Taijiquan in Hong Kong so.... first the word "essence" which is defined as "the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character."

based on that I would have to say the real answer is......patience

Now if you will allow the Northern view of the other art I trained: Xingyiquan... the essence would be.... attack


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2017)

DaveB said:


> so I'm especially curious to hear from the southern stylists.


I can only speak of Hung ga and Jow Ga kung fu.  These systems depend on very strong roots for the attacks.  The best way I can explain it is that after about 6 months of training these systems a person will feel more rooted to the ground and you'll get this sluggish feeling as if you aren't light as light on your feet anymore. You'll feel like a tank but at a cost.  I think this is why Choy Ga was added to Jow Ga kung fu to create more of a balance between the strong root of Hung Ga and the quick foot work of Choy ga.  Many of the big punches are like "Hulk Smashes"  in the sense that they are heavy punches even from a short distance without the wind up. For those on the receiving end, it feels like you are getting hit with both the punch and the weight of the attackers body.  A lot of emphasis is put on building up the legs and the strength of the waist and core.  As a student one can expect to get a good workout for the legs and waist.  These systems also don't utilize high kicks as much, in comparison to other systems.  High kicks are often trained for flexibility but in actual application you will rarely see a person from these systems use a high kick.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 27, 2017)

Kung Fu...

Hard work

Maximum efficiency. Unfortunately maximum is an uncatchable albatross, but I strive.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 27, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> since me and you do similar stuff, i am curious as well.  can you answer your own post question for me.



I'll do my best. 

I was told that though it's called Tiger-crane it's really crane with elements of tiger style.

So the crane is light and mobile, keeping away from the opponents force and striking with precision. It uses the waist to deflect and power strikes, it sticks and throws its energy rather than thrusts.

The tiger roots its self and actively rips away the opponent's defence. It smashes and once in contact siezes and controls.

Not a concise explanation but I think that sums up the style... Does it seem familiar?


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 27, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I'll do my best.
> 
> I was told that though it's called Tiger-crane it's really crane with elements of tiger style.
> 
> ...


Reading it , it is to vague a statement. It could as well be any style.  I would be curious as to the actual name.  If your teacher only uses the name tiger-crane it could be a rehash of a karate style or a chinese style. I would put money on the karate.  If it was a chinese lineage he would call it Ming He Quan or Hu Zun Quan,, whooping crane style or Tiger style or something like that that is definitive.
My question would be what forms do you do?


----------



## DaveB (Jul 27, 2017)

Lol I have no concern about the lineage or origin of the style.
I just don't train at a club anymore to ask questions like this one.

Also that was the most detailed description after Jow ga's. Im not sure I could identify any of the arts that go with these descriptions. That could be a fun game in it's self.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Reading it , it is to vague a statement. It could as well be any style.  I would be curious as to the actual name.  If your teacher only uses the name tiger-crane it could be a rehash of a karate style or a chinese style. I would put money on the karate.  If it was a chinese lineage he would call it Ming He Quan or Hu Zun Quan,, whooping crane style or Tiger style or something like that that is definitive.
> My question would be what forms do you do?


Can't be whooping crane.  The whooping crane species is indigenous (and nearly extinct) to North America, and is not and never has been found in Asia.  You're welcome.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I forgot to ask what style you do as well?


Tibetan White Crane.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I'll do my best.
> 
> I was told that though it's called Tiger-crane it's really crane with elements of tiger style.
> 
> ...


Is this a hung-gar derivative, or something from Fujian crane? I've also heard of an Omei white crane but I know nothing about it, including whether it is a legitimate system or something that was created in the US as a quasi-Chinese-ish martial art.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 27, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Can't be whooping crane.  The whooping crane species is indigenous (and nearly extinct) to North America, and is not and never has been found in Asia.  You're welcome.


So then maybe Ming He Quan is , calling crane? I have heard that usage as well. I don't speak chinese at all.
And I seem to remember you correcting the whooping name before. I'll try to remember that.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 27, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Lol I have no concern about the lineage or origin of the style.
> I just don't train at a club anymore to ask questions like this one.
> 
> Also that was the most detailed description after Jow ga's. Im not sure I could identify any of the arts that go with these descriptions. That could be a fun game in it's self.


It's all good.  I am curious about the name and lineage only so I can get an image of what your practice looks like.
Do you do the form sanchin/ San zhan?  This form is the foundational practice of most Fujian styles.

So my own practice does sanjian form and others, iron shirt training and chin na.
Question for the other CMA guys....does your style incorporate meridian based strike targets, Kyusho  / dim mak ?


----------



## DaveB (Jul 28, 2017)

I trained in Tiger-crane combination that descends from the Nam Yang Pugilistic Association by way of the Fujian White Crane (name not style) school in London.

They have a Sanchin that I can't spell the next form is a repeat of the first but with half steps and slightly different end, the third and forth seem vaguely related to Siesan that 90d turns and 45d movements with a 180d turn respectively. Then the 5th uses turns at I think 20d and looks at redirection of force.
These first 5 were just referred to as patterns 1 -5.

There are more traditionally named longer forms after that but I don't know them.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 28, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I trained in Tiger-crane combination that descends from the Nam Yang Pugilistic Association by way of the Fujian White Crane (name not style) school in London.
> 
> They have a Sanchin that I can't spell the next form is a repeat of the first but with half steps and slightly different end, the third and forth seem vaguely related to Siesan that 90d turns and 45d movements with a 180d turn respectively. Then the 5th uses turns at I think 20d and looks at redirection of force.
> These first 5 were just referred to as patterns 1 -5.
> ...


Nam Yang,,,wow ok.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 28, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Nam Yang,,,wow ok.


Is there something special about the nam yang group?

Its from Fujian originally, a combination of Fujian White Crane and some other local tiger style that I haven't been able to identify.

When I look for southern tiger or hakka tiger kungfu I keep getting referred to a style called Tai Chor, but I don't know why because that apparently translates to something else entirely.

The head of the school I trained apparently split from nam yang and built up relations with the FWC peeps.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 28, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Is there something special about the nam yang group?
> 
> Its from Fujian originally, a combination of Fujian White Crane and some other local tiger style that I haven't been able to identify.
> 
> ...



Nam Yang, from what i read, comes from 3 styles and Tai Chor is the tiger system they list, sun and frost crane is one of the crane styles, its very tai chi looking. the other Fujian crane system within Nam Yang is not really specified they call it Eng Chun Pei Ho,  but that seems to be a Nam Yang terminology.  it is listed in english as a white crane system.

if your teacher is/ has training with some FWC people then you probably have a heavy slant towards that system. i wish i was single and kid free again i would love to travel all over and visit with you and everyone else here on MT.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 28, 2017)

Eng chun pei ho is probably the same as Yong chun bai he, ie Yong chun village white crane, ie Fujianese white crane.

Sun frost crane is a bolt on tai chi style taught separately but along side the tiger-crane style. It never interested me though so I avoided it. I just can't cope with slow motion forms, at least not when learning.

I have a karate taichi form that I do slowmo sometimes but I learned it at normal speed.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 28, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> So then maybe Ming He Quan is , calling crane? I have heard that usage as well. I don't speak chinese at all.
> And I seem to remember you correcting the whooping name before. I'll try to remember that.



I had to look that up and whooping comes up as Bǎirìké but if you reverse the translation it comes back as pertussis so I am assuming this is a reference to "whooping cough" and not whooping crane.... I would be interested in what word you heard.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 28, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> So then maybe Ming He Quan is , calling crane? I have heard that usage as well. I don't speak chinese at all.
> And I seem to remember you correcting the whooping name before. I'll try to remember that.


Yeah I think there is something called calling crane.  It's easy to mix those words up in this context.

The mistake doesn't bother me, I think it's actually kind of funny. But I do point it out.  Kind of like when people say Koala Bear.  It's not a bear at all.  It's a marsupial.  It's a koala.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 29, 2017)

Hoshin, what style do you do?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> i would love to travel all over and visit with you and everyone else here on MT


That's my lottery-based retirement plan, Hoshin.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> I had to look that up and whooping comes up as Bǎirìké but if you reverse the translation it comes back as pertussis so I am assuming this is a reference to "whooping cough" and not whooping crane.... I would be interested in what word you heard.


"Pertussis Crane Kung Fu" really doesn't have that ring to it, you know?


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 29, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Hoshin, what style do you do?


for many years i trained in  Uechi ryu.  which by common classification is named karate.  but historically Kanbun Uechi studied kung-fu and taught in China using the Chinese language. later after the boxer rebellion he moved to Wakayama  Japan and opened the Pangainoon Tode-jutsu school in 1925.  so by definition Kanbun did kung-fu , however his son Kanei after Kanbun's death became the defacto head of the system and living in Okinawa, redesigned the curriculum and called it Uechi- ryu karate.  
my own journey has led me back to the origins of the style and bring back many of the aspects of the art that have been pushed aside as well as forgo many of the parts that have been either tacked on to the art or misinterpreted over the years.  i fully support and respect those who train in Uechi ryu and follow the way that was past to them from their teacher, that is just not where the winds of fate have taken me.  i am interested in the style with two aspects in mind, first the art as Kanbun Uechi learned it and how he taught in China. he was very proud of the art and was very protective to preserve it intact as his teacher taught him.  second, how this older art fits into today's need for true self defense.  the older art was active during the Boxer rebellion and was really geared towards actual self defense.  where the modern developments have taken on more of the sport aspects common in the 1960's and have been very influenced by American perceptions and the need for leisure time pursuits.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 29, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> for many years i trained in  Uechi ryu.  which by common classification is named karate.  but historically Kanbun Uechi studied kung-fu and taught in China using the Chinese language. later after the boxer rebellion he moved to Wakayama  Japan and opened the Pangainoon Tode-jutsu school in 1925.  so by definition Kanbun did kung-fu , however his son Kanei after Kanbun's death became the defacto head of the system and living in Okinawa, redesigned the curriculum and called it Uechi- ryu karate.
> my own journey has led me back to the origins of the style and bring back many of the aspects of the art that have been pushed aside as well as forgo many of the parts that have been either tacked on to the art or misinterpreted over the years.  i fully support and respect those who train in Uechi ryu and follow the way that was past to them from their teacher, that is just not where the winds of fate have taken me.  i am interested in the style with two aspects in mind, first the art as Kanbun Uechi learned it and how he taught in China. he was very proud of the art and was very protective to preserve it intact as his teacher taught him.  second, how this older art fits into today's need for true self defense.  the older art was active during the Boxer rebellion and was really geared towards actual self defense.  where the modern developments have taken on more of the sport aspects common in the 1960's and have been very influenced by American perceptions and the need for leisure time pursuits.



Replace Uechi ryu with Shotokan and our stories are almost identical.


----------



## VPT (Aug 1, 2017)

鸣/míng: (of animals and birds) cry, call; make sound. 

Dunno why people call this "whooping". Do you Anglo-Americans describe the sound of crane like that? I think Patrick McCarthy uses the term "Whooping Crane", maybe the whole term originates from him.

Also, "Yongchun Baihe" in Fuzhou dialect is "Eing Cung Bak Houk". However, Fuzhou dialect belongs to Eastern Min language group, whereas Yongchun village area might be in Western Min, so this comment has basically zero value


----------



## VPT (Aug 1, 2017)

I'll use a three-tiered approach borrowed from Japanese Koryu to describe Bak Mei. It has levels of hyoho, tenouchi and waza; or, Strategy, Skill and Technique, thus moving from more abstract to more concrete.

On strategy level, Bak Mei aims to break the opponent's structure by forcefully disrupting an incoming attack and then entering close range. And then, dunno, maybe finish them?

On skill level, the line of attack is linear and almost straight up, with little sideways movement to enter (yet such movements are still found in forms); this is one distinguishing feature between Lung Ying and Bak Mei. Both hands are kept close to centerline, usually in a tiger claw posture (initial position for Mo Kiu, rubbing bridge). Shoulders are not squared, however, but in a very slight angle approximating 15 degrees. Power generation comes through sagittal flexion and extension of the spine. The training of forms aims to produce short power or inch power, which is called "scared power" in Bak Mei. This power can be utilised in several ways upon contact with incoming attacks, thus we do not aim for sustaining bridges for extended mounts of time. Main method of footwork is sliding, alternating steps occur only occasionally.

On a technique level, there are four main directions of technique (Sei Biu), sink-float-swallow-spit. There are different hand techniques that use different directions for different goals. Either hand hardly ever goes to a chamber either at the ribs or the waist, and in forms most attacks are executed with the right hand with the left hand mostly just clearing the way and making openings. Kicks only occur with the right leg (since stance is most of the time left leg ahead). Some (but not all) lineages use the classification of "Baat Sek" or "eight techniques" to deal with attacks, there's a video series on YouTube of them if you are interested.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 1, 2017)

VPT said:


> 鸣/míng: (of animals and birds) cry, call; make sound.
> 
> Dunno why people call this "whooping". Do you Anglo-Americans describe the sound of crane like that? I think Patrick McCarthy uses the term "Whooping Crane", maybe the whole term originates from him.
> 
> Also, "Yongchun Baihe" in Fuzhou dialect is "Eing Cung Bak Houk". However, Fuzhou dialect belongs to Eastern Min language group, whereas Yongchun village area might be in Western Min, so this comment has basically zero value


 i think the name can be irrelevant to translate.  its like saying oinking pig,, some will argue a pink doesnt oink it snorts.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 1, 2017)

VPT said:


> I'll use a three-tiered approach borrowed from Japanese Koryu to describe Bak Mei. It has levels of hyoho, tenouchi and waza; or, Strategy, Skill and Technique, thus moving from more abstract to more concrete.
> 
> On strategy level, Bak Mei aims to break the opponent's structure by forcefully disrupting an incoming attack and then entering close range. And then, dunno, maybe finish them?
> 
> ...


That's a great description. Some of the bak mei videos I've seen are very reminiscent of the Tiger-crane I've done.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 3, 2017)

I found this great instructional video on Fijian White Crane. It's interesting to observe what my styles founder thought was worth keeping as well as the parallels with wing chun.


----------



## VPT (Aug 3, 2017)

Pretty darn good video, judging by the sections I had a glimpse on. You could actually learn and practice a whole lot of stuff from there. However, the video is mistitled. This is not Yongchun Baihe or 12 Sections Power (or I did not see they perform that form), this is _actually Wing Chun_.


----------



## VPT (Aug 3, 2017)

Ah-ha, I got some tiger-crane footage in my hands. Seems like general Fujian/Hokkien material to me, not _necessarily_ so much Hakka-ish...


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 3, 2017)

this is Yong Chun white crane.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 3, 2017)

there are many variations of fujian crane and tiger/ crane styles.  there are fujian styles that were not even officially named. from what i understand they were just "local" styles that sometimes borrowed a popular name like white crane.


----------



## VPT (Aug 3, 2017)

Personally I am aware of at least following crane styles of Fujian ancestry: Yongchun white crane, singing crane, feeding crane, flying crane, shaking crane/ancestral crane (apparently same style, former is Taiwan lineage, latter mainland Chinese), monkey crane, Great-Ancestor-turned-crane and Arhat-turned-crane. This tiger-crane seems like on of such hybrid styles. I see some Taizu/Wuzuquan influence (or similar) as well...


----------



## DaveB (Aug 3, 2017)

VPT said:


> Pretty darn good video, judging by the sections I had a glimpse on. You could actually learn and practice a whole lot of stuff from there. However, the video is mistitled. This is not Yongchun Baihe or 12 Sections Power (or I did not see they perform that form), this is _actually Wing Chun_.



Interesting, there are a lot of differences to the wing chun I've seen. Are you able to understand the Chinese or do you just recognise the style in the video?

I expect FWC to resemble the wing chun as I'm led to believe that the crane in wing chun is literally chopped down FWC.


----------



## VPT (Aug 3, 2017)

I read Chinese well enough to confirm that the video is titled "Yongchunquan", "Wing Chun Kyun" in Cantonese. I'm gonna take a better look at that clip tonight, but I can't see any mentions of cranes anywhere. In the meantime, here's a form from Baihe you might appreciate: The Twelve Sections Power form, that was in the title of the Wing Chun video:






Performer is Lei Kong, the famous Crane teacher from Hong Kong. Interestingly, this shares many, many similarities with the Tensho form of Goju-ryu karate. It was introduced to the style after the style founder Chojun Miyagi returned from his martial arts study trip to China (after his previous master in Okinawa having passed away). He claims the form as his own invention. So there _might_ be a link between Baihe and Tensho, like him having seen it or someone having learned some baihe and taught his version to Miyagi, or whatever. Direct contact with Yongchun Baihe is not necessary by any means.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 3, 2017)

VPT said:


> I read Chinese well enough to confirm that the video is titled "Yongchunquan", "Wing Chun Kyun" in Cantonese. I'm gonna take a better look at that clip tonight, but I can't see any mentions of cranes anywhere. In the meantime, here's a form from Baihe you might appreciate: The Twelve Sections Power form, that was in the title of the Wing Chun video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the correction. That style of wing chun looks to have covered some of the concerns people had about its more commonly seen sibling, like use of circular strikes and covering distance.


----------



## VPT (Aug 3, 2017)

Ah-hah, this seems to be solved. It seems that DaveB's video is official Chinese government-designed "wushu-Wing Chun". Didn't know that existed. Looks like they've scrapped the old forms, made six levels into it that can be performed both as an individual and paired forms... and added Nike sports wear.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 3, 2017)

VPT said:


> Ah-hah, this seems to be solved. It seems that DaveB's video is official Chinese government-designed "wushu-Wing Chun". Didn't know that existed. Looks like they've scrapped the old forms, made six levels into it that can be performed both as an individual and paired forms... and added Nike sports wear.


 not the first time the Chinese government had a controlling hand in martial arts.  seems to be a constant reoccurring theme.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 3, 2017)

VPT said:


> Ah-hah, this seems to be solved. It seems that DaveB's video is official Chinese government-designed "wushu-Wing Chun". Didn't know that existed. Looks like they've scrapped the old forms, made six levels into it that can be performed both as an individual and paired forms... and added Nike sports wear.


Sinister yet awesome.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Is this a hung-gar derivative, or something from Fujian crane? I've also heard of an Omei white crane but I know nothing about it, including whether it is a legitimate system or something that was created in the US as a quasi-Chinese-ish martial art.


Omei Crane is legit. Just another name for Tibetan White Crane, generally in reference to village versions which are mixed with another art like Pak Mei, Wing Chun etc. Woo Ching's version would technically be considered an Omei derivitive. As a term it became popular with the Shaolin Do people who attached the label to their "version" of white crane and the history of crane being developed in the west, it definitely isn't the same.


----------



## VPT (Aug 18, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Omei Crane is legit. Just another name for Tibetan White Crane, generally in reference to village versions which are mixed with another art like Pak Mei, Wing Chun etc. Woo Ching's version would technically be considered an Omei derivitive. As a term it became popular with the Shaolin Do people who attached the label to their "version" of white crane and the history of crane being developed in the west, it definitely isn't the same.



In all honesty, I don't believe in the existence of any genuine "Emei/Omei/Ngomei Bak Mei" - as a hybrid of White Crane and BM, at least. Everything that is Bak Mei comes eventually from CLC post-1920s. If there was such a thing, it would be a very recent creation.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

VPT said:


> I read Chinese well enough to confirm that the video is titled "Yongchunquan", "Wing Chun Kyun" in Cantonese. I'm gonna take a better look at that clip tonight, but I can't see any mentions of cranes anywhere. In the meantime, here's a form from Baihe you might appreciate: The Twelve Sections Power form, that was in the title of the Wing Chun video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At 10 second mark it says Yongchun Quan Bai He (Wing Chun Kuen Baak Hok). Though, from what I seen in the clip I would have to agree it appears to be Wing Chun. Some mainland branches do consider themselves to be a derivative of White Crane.

Lee Kong's White Crane is technically 5 Ancestor Fist White Crane (Yongchun Wuzu Quan). It is 5 Ancestor Fist that focuses on Yongchun Crane to a greater extent than the monkey, tiger, luohan & Tai Zu material.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

VPT said:


> In all honesty, I don't believe in the existence of any genuine "Emei/Omei/Ngomei Bak Mei" - as a hybrid of White Crane and BM, at least. Everything that is Bak Mei comes eventually from CLC post-1920s. If there was such a thing, it would be a very recent creation.


Correct, the villages around Lau Fu  mountain mixed CLC' Pak Mei and other arts with Tibetan Crane back in the 40s & 50s. The Emei (Omei) designation was attributed due to the proximity to the temple and the Tibetan White Crane & Pak Mei oral legends associated with the temple, not necessarily actual real history.


----------



## VPT (Aug 18, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Correct, the villages around Lau Fu  mountain mixed CLC' Pak Mei and other arts with Tibetan Crane back in the 40s & 50s. The Emei (Omei) designation was attributed due to the proximity to the temple and the Tibetan White Crane & Pak Mei oral legends associated with the temple, not necessarily actual real history.



Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that. I am not aware of any extant Bak Mei lineage that far in the east. CLC is from Huiyang District in Huizhou, which is close to Mt. Luofu. However, he only started teaching Bak Mei in Guangzhou prior moving to HK and none of his students seem to have ever ventured that far out. (He was also very strict about not letting others teach his art. He was a greedy individual.) I think my teacher would know about it if there were.


----------



## VPT (Aug 18, 2017)

Are you, by any chance, talking about the stuff that Doo Wai teaches?


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

VPT said:


> Are you, by any chance, talking about the stuff that Doo Wai teaches?


No. Woo Ching is a respected head master of a Tibetan White Crane school in Boston, I believe at least one of his teachers was Chan Hok Fu. He was from a small village near Luofu. He recited a history of the villagers mixing many methods, including Pak Mei with Tibetan White Crane. One of his students (senior instructor) has a blog where he tells of the story, I also have heard the same thing from my shifu, I have no reason to doubt the validity. If I'm not mistaken, the late Lama Pai master Chan Tai San also studied Pak Mei under CLC. Not hard to believe that a small village would patch together a method based on different arts they learned. Some oral legends of Tibetan Crane mention Emei.


----------



## VPT (Aug 18, 2017)

I'm not familiar with Woo Ching, but Doo Wai also teaches something under the name of "Omei Bak Mei". I don't believe in any of his stuff for a second.

I also doubt any existence of "village Bak Mei" in Huizhou area. CLC did study with a guy called Lam Hap in Huizhou as well as Lei Ga Boxing, but as I stated above, according to my current knowledge he only came up with his invention of "Bak Mei" in Guangzhou (by the late 1920s) where he had made name for himself along with his cousin by marriage Lam Yiu Gwai, with whom he had studied under Lam Hap. 

I don't believe he taught Bak Mei to anyone in Luofu area in Huizhou, neither have I heard of any of his students (mainly Tsang Wai Bok and Ha Hon Hung) having taught anyone who'd went there.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

VPT said:


> I'm not familiar with Woo Ching, but Doo Wai also teaches something under the name of "Omei Bak Mei". I don't believe in any of his stuff for a second.
> 
> I also doubt any existence of "village Bak Mei" in Huizhou area. CLC did study with a guy called Lam Hap in Huizhou as well as Lei Ga Boxing, but as I stated above, according to my current knowledge he only came up with his invention of "Bak Mei" in Guangzhou (by the late 1920s) where he had made name for himself along with his cousin by marriage Lam Yiu Gwai, with whom he had studied under Lam Hap.
> 
> I don't believe he taught Bak Mei to anyone in Luofu area in Huizhou, neither have I heard of any of his students (mainly Tsang Wai Bok and Ha Hon Hung) having taught anyone who'd went there.


IDK, but There are many Lama Pai, Hop Gar  & Tibetan Crane individuals that have studied Pak Mei or Yongchun (my branch is a village system with roots in Yongchun). I have no reason to believe that anyone is lying about having learned a little Bai Mei or anything else and mixing it with their crane. The Tibetan arts have their own storied fighting tradition & don't need to piggyback off if anyone else's achievements. Its not my lineage so I can't really validate anything, but also have no reason to disbelieve it.

As far as Emei Crane, many charlatans have used that name when describing their created versions of white crane. As I stated, historically, Emei is associated with the crane legend, and Lions Roar (Tibetan Crane, Hop Gar & Lama Pai) is the only crane method with a legitimate claim to that area. Also there is an Emei version of Bai Mei (based on ape), said to be different to what CLC created, it could be this method that the villagers mixed with their Pak Hok Pai, I really don't  know TBH.


----------



## VPT (Aug 18, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> IDK, but There are many Lama Pai, Hop Gar  & Tibetan Crane individuals that have studied Pak Mei or Yongchun (my branch is a village system with roots in Yongchun). I have no reason to believe that anyone is lying about having learned a little Bai Mei or anything else and mixing it with their crane. The Tibetan arts have their own storied fighting tradition & don't need to piggyback off if anyone else's achievements. Its not my lineage so I can't really validate anything, but also have no reason to disbelieve it.
> 
> As far as Emei Crane, many charlatans have used that name when describing their created versions of white crane. As I stated, historically, Emei is associated with the crane legend, and Lions Roar (Tibetan Crane, Hop Gar & Lama Pai) is the only crane method with a legitimate claim to that area. Also there is an Emei version of Bai Mei (based on ape), said to be different to what CLC created, it could be this method that the villagers mixed with their Pak Hok Pai, I really don't  know TBH.



Bak Mei Rule of Thumb #1: If someone says their Bak Mei is not related to CLC, they are not speaking the truth. 

I am not by any means discarding some Pak Hok people learning Bak Mei at some point; I know next to nothing about Pak Hok and it's one of those styles that baffle me yet seem to be very popular in the States and it's very plausible that someone would have learned something at some point from someone (inside the broader CLC lineage). However, I am more aware of the actual history of Bak Mei behind the oral legends and based on that I'm just being sceptic in a healthy manner.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

VPT said:


> Bak Mei Rule of Thumb #1: If someone says their Bak Mei is not related to CLC, they are not speaking the truth.
> 
> I am not by any means discarding some Pak Hok people learning Bak Mei at some point; I know next to nothing about Pak Hok and it's one of those styles that baffle me yet seem to be very popular in the States and it's very plausible that someone would have learned something at some point from someone (inside the broader CLC lineage). However, I am more aware of the actual history of Bak Mei behind the oral legends and based on that I'm just being sceptic in a healthy manner.


Agree, CLC is the founder of the method referred to as Bai Mei today.  

The Emei Bai Mei legend is much older and is a completely different art, not Hakka, long fist, based on a white ape, & said to be the foundation of the modern Emei martial arts. Different art, same name, and most likely doesnt exist as a seperate style today, having been completely absorbed by the modern Emei system. There is a theory that it was a varient of old Tongbei and the inspiration for the ape techniques in Tibetan White Crane. I don't know enough about it to make an educated decision for or against.

Just trying to show that Emei Crane is a valid system, actually just a rarely used description for village variations of Pak Hok Pai like Woo Ching's version (though they don't refer to themselves as Emei Crane AFAIK, other groups call them that). Can't speak for any other groups using it to describe or validate their crane style. IMO if it isn't Pak Hok Pai related, it probably isn't legitimately from Emei region and a relatively new creation.


----------



## VPT (Aug 18, 2017)

Thanks, I had not heard of this before. Seems interesting, I found info on it from some old Kung Fu Mag thread: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?19051-Emei-Bai-Mei

Apparently there are no videos around of this Emei style, not even on Chinese streaming sites. I guess I need to go to Sichuan myself. Damn...


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

VPT said:


> Thanks, I had not heard of this before. Seems interesting, I found info on it from some old Kung Fu Mag thread: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?19051-Emei-Bai-Mei
> 
> Apparently there are no videos around of this Emei style, not even on Chinese streaming sites. I guess I need to go to Sichuan myself. Damn...


Here is an article you might find interesting

Emei Martial Arts: Major Schools, Features, Skills


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

Documentary on Emei martial arts.






Search Youtube, plenty of legit Emei style videos plus others calling themselves Emei. The arts coming from Emei have a northern flavor, Szechuan & Yunan village methods are a little crude but still have a predominate northern flair. If it looks Fujian and is calling itself Emei, it probably isn't.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 18, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Omei Crane is legit. Just another name for Tibetan White Crane, generally in reference to village versions which are mixed with another art like Pak Mei, Wing Chun etc. Woo Ching's version would technically be considered an Omei derivitive. As a term it became popular with the Shaolin Do people who attached the label to their "version" of white crane and the history of crane being developed in the west, it definitely isn't the same.


That is interesting.  I never saw Omei crane in connection to Shaolin-do, but I ran into it connected to Green Dragon Studios, under sifu John Allen, I believe they call it "Wu Mei crane".  Many many years ago I had one of their instructional videos from one of their "Wu Mei white crane" forms, I believe they called it "little crane fist" or something.  Since I began study of Tibetan white crane much later than when I had that video, I can say in hindsight that it is little or nothing like our Tibetan material.  Stylistically it is very different, does not have any resemblance to any of our forms that I am familiar with, and the fundamental principles and practices were missing from the video, and in fact were never even mentioned.

The Shaolin-do is something that i also trained for a while, and their crane material done at the under belt levels was also definitely not the Tibetan material.  In hindsight it also seemed significantly different from the Green Dragon stuff.  I don't know if they do additional material at higher levels, which i never saw...

So if Green Dragon's material is representative of Omei, then in my opinion it is not Tibetan Crane, or it has been altered so significantly as to have become something else.  Same goes for the Shaolin-do material, as far as I saw it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 18, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Here is an article you might find interesting
> 
> Emei Martial Arts: Major Schools, Features, Skills


Based on that article, I would say that if there is an Omei crane system, it is their own thing and not a derivative from the Tibetan system.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> That is interesting.  I never saw Omei crane in connection to Shaolin-do, but I ran into it connected to Green Dragon Studios, under sifu John Allen, I believe they call it "Wu Mei crane".  Many many years ago I had one of their instructional videos from one of their "Wu Mei white crane" forms, I believe they called it "little crane fist" or something.  Since I began study of Tibetan white crane much later than when I had that video, I can say in hindsight that it is little or nothing like our Tibetan material.  Stylistically it is very different, does not have any resemblance to any of our forms that I am familiar with, and the fundamental principles and practices were missing from the video, and in fact were never even mentioned.
> 
> The Shaolin-do is something that i also trained for a while, and their crane material done at the under belt levels was also definitely not the Tibetan material.  In hindsight it also seemed significantly different from the Green Dragon stuff.  I don't know if they do additional material at higher levels, which i never saw...
> 
> So if Green Dragon's material is representative of Omei, then in my opinion it is not Tibetan Crane, or it has been altered so significantly as to have become something else.  Same goes for the Shaolin-do material, as far as I saw it.


Agree, the only crane system with any legitimate claim to Emei is Tibetan Crane. Many White Crane legends talk about crane originating in the West. I think many individuals used this to promote their newly developed crane methods as old,  and associated their "origins" with Emei figuring nobody would question the validity as information on Emei is scarce. Emei is heavily influenced by northern CMA' s, when I see short bridge & narrow stance crane styles claiming Emei heritage it throws up a red flag.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 18, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Agree, the only crane system with any legitimate claim to Emei is Tibetan Crane. Many White Crane legends talk about crane originating in the West. I think many individuals used this to promote their newly developed crane methods as old,  and associated their "origins" with Emei figuring nobody would question the validity as information on Emei is scarce. Emei is heavily influenced by northern CMA' s, when I see short bridge & narrow stance crane styles claiming Emei heritage it throws up a red flag.


I guess I don't understand what claim on Ermei the Tibetan system may make?  I've never heard it in any of the history related by my sifu.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Based on that article, I would say that if there is an Omei crane system, it is their own thing and not a derivative from the Tibetan system.


There are no stand alone crane systems with Emei heritage other than Pak Hok Pai, and that is tenuous at best, having resided at Emei and not developed there. Again, many used Emei & crane legends to promote newly created crane systems like what Green Dragon & Shaolin Do promoted, they have no legitimate claim to Emei.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I don't understand what claim on Ermei the Tibetan system may make?  I've never heard it in any of the history related by my sifu.


Emei temple used to be part of Tibet, the whole of Szechuan & Yunan provinces were part of Tibet up until 1950s. Some legends of Lion's Roar state that the system was brought to Emei before Sing Lung traveled south in late 1800s. Sing Lung's teacher Jickbowloktow was said to have resided there. Mizong Lamaism is popular in that region.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 18, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> There are no stand alone crane systems with Emei heritage other than Pak Hok Pai, and that is tenuous at best, having resided at Emei and not developed there. Again, many used Emei & crane legends to promote newly created crane systems like what Green Dragon & Shaolin Do promoted, they have no legitimate claim to Emei.


Ok, I'm still trying to understand the Ermei connection with Pak Hok.  It has just never come up in what I've heard.  Are you saying that some proponent of the Bak Hok system resided at Ermei for some time?  I don't know how well documented the early generations of Bak Hok are, it is my understanding that there is a gap of a few hundred years between the origins of the system, and it's arrival in southern China.  I suppose people in those early generations could have ended up in many places, and the early versions of the system would have looked quite different from the current state of the curriculum.  These  things do tend to evolve and develop and change over time.

Additionally, I don't know if the method was ever called "White Crane/Bak Hok" by the earlier generations.  It is my understanding that it was Lama Pai until rather recently, it got the name Hop Ga after coming to China, and the Bak Hok branch didn't split until the 1950s or so.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 18, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Emei temple used to be part of Tibet, the whole of Szechuan & Yunan provinces were part of Tibet up until 1950s. Some legends of Lion's Roar state that the system was brought to Emei before Sing Lung traveled south in late 1800s. Sing Lung's teacher Jickbowloktow was said to have resided there. Mizong Lamaism is popular in that region.


Ah, ok, interesting stuff.  I don't know intimate details of a lot of the history, just the main storyline.


----------



## Nobody Important (Aug 18, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, I'm still trying to understand the Ermei connection with Pak Hok.  It has just never come up in what I've heard.  Are you saying that some proponent of the Bak Hok system resided at Ermei for some time?  I don't know how well documented the early generations of Bak Hok are, it is my understanding that there is a gap of a few hundred years between the origins of the system, and it's arrival in southern China.  I suppose people in those early generations could have ended up in many places, and the early versions of the system would have looked quite different from the current state of the curriculum.  These  things do tend to evolve and develop and change over time.
> 
> Additionally, I don't know if the method was ever called "White Crane/Bak Hok" by the earlier generations.  It is my understanding that it was Lama Pai until rather recently, it got the name Hop Ga after coming to China, and the Bak Hok branch didn't split until the 1950s or so.


Sing Lung was 1 of 5 disciples of Jickbowlocktow. There is an obscure branch out of Germany (I think, met the fellow years ago) descended from Jickbowloktow not through Sing Lung. Their material is similar to Woo Ching's, different but recognizable, than the main stream Ng Siu  Chung system out of Hong Kong. Myself, one of the branches I studied came from a training brother of Ng  Siu Chung by the name of Ng Chien Ho, another lesser known student of Wong Lam Hoi. Forms are very different in choreography than Ng  Siu Chung. Most in Pak Hok are only familiar with the material coming from Ng Siu Chung and the "4 Fu's" (Chan Hok Fu, Luk Chi Fu, Kwong Boon Fu & another I can't seem to remember, lol). There's an awesome lineage chart out of the Philippines that lists a majority of Lion's Roar practitioners (Lama Pai, Pak Hok Pai, Hop Gar). It shows who learned from who and who passed material on. There are some gaps, but not many for modern age of the art. Prior to Sing Lung is known, but not public, I think because there is some contention and ethnic pride involved, but the line from Adatuo to Sing Lung is recorded without gaps.


----------



## bak_mei_jr (Dec 19, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I'll do my best.
> 
> I was told that though it's called Tiger-crane it's really crane with elements of tiger style.
> 
> ...


By Tiger-crane do you mean Hung Ga?  (I know Hung Ga is sometimes called this.)  If so, the essence of Hung Ga is contained in the principles described by the 12 bridge hands.  Not 12 techniques, but rather 12 concepts upon which Hung Ga is built.


----------



## VPT (Dec 19, 2017)

There was discussion about this earlier in a different thread. It's actually a Fujian style, basically crane mixed with tiger or vice versa. Not Hung Ga.


----------



## bak_mei_jr (Dec 19, 2017)

VPT said:


> There was discussion about this earlier in a different thread. It's actually a Fujian style, basically crane mixed with tiger or vice versa. Not Hung Ga.


Got it and cool.


----------



## DaveB (Dec 19, 2017)

Redundant post.


----------

