# Why do Judo?



## Freestyler777 (Jan 23, 2009)

Here is my view on Judo and self defense:

Judo is not explicitly designed to be self defense.  It is a sport.  I think submission wrestling and karate is self defense.  

Judo is, quite possibly, the greatest human endeavor.  At its most base level it is physical education and exercise.  It is also a way for wrestlers to stay in shape during the off-season or to practice something like wrestling long after their competitive careers are over.  

At it's highest meaning, it is an expression of beauty and a striving for perfection.  It's more difficult to do a harai goshi or an uchimata than to tackle someone and pin them.  Judo has an aesthetic value.

It also teaches the judoka a lot about themselves and others.  

Judo is a life-long pursuit, and one never stops growing on the path to knowledge and understanding.

If people don't understand judo as being more than just jacket-wrestling, than it is their mistake, and judokas should be happy to practice such a wonderful sport.


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## jarrod (Jan 23, 2009)

hey thanks!  you just butt-kissed your way to some rep! 

i've been going rounds lately on combat sports vs self defense & i don't intend to drag it into this thread.  but i do think judo is sometimes underestimated as a means of self-defense.  i think i would hate getting thrown on pavement or a hard floor worse than getting punched.  especially if i didn't know how to fall.

jf


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## matt.m (Jan 23, 2009)

Let me ask this: How much and at what level or length of time have you participated in Judo? I like your post, the thing is that Judo was derived from Japanese Jujutsu.  Yes it is extremely athletic but to say it is a beautiful art and great sport takes away the fact that it is one of the most rounded martial arts.  Look at kodokan judo and judo unleashed.  Both are great books.

Judo is a formidable art and is hard if trained that way, so is karate and others.  The point is it is all about the workout and intent of why you train.


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## Freestyler777 (Jan 24, 2009)

but you agree that judo is shifting it's emphasis, from jujitsu to Olympic Sport?

I see judo people on judoforum.com wondering why judo isn't as good as BJJ/Submission wrestling.  They're in judo for the wrong reasons.  While ne-waza and some throws help, it's not the point to do judo for SD.  

judo is physical education and a life-long sport.  i think submission wrestling is the more bare bones self defense-sport.  

that does bring up another issue- in striking, there is a 'double standard' between self defense and sport.  Muay Thai and karate are not the same thing.

But in grappling, submission CAN be practiced as a sport and still be effective self defense.  Judo is to submission wrestling what muay thai is to karate, the sport version of a self defense art.  That is my opinion.  I know if this was in person, I'd be bludgeoned to death by all the angry judoka!  I am glad you that you aren't angry.:angel:


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## jarrod (Jan 24, 2009)

Freestyler777 said:


> but you agree that judo is shifting it's emphasis, from jujitsu to Olympic Sport?
> 
> I see judo people on judoforum.com wondering why judo isn't as good as BJJ/Submission wrestling. They're in judo for the wrong reasons. While ne-waza and some throws help, it's not the point to do judo for SD.
> 
> ...


 
well now i think you're just talking silly.  tell you what, let's look up instances of judo used in real world situations vs bjj used in real world situations.  not mma, challenge matches, or bar fights, but real SD.  keep in mind that judo was/is used as standard training for many police departments. 

judo does overemphasize the sport aspect, imo.  but it is still very applicable for SD, as is muay thai.

jf


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## Ironcrane (Jan 24, 2009)

jarrod said:


> well now i think you're just talking silly.  tell you what, let's look up instances of judo used in real world situations vs bjj used in real world situations.  not mma, challenge matches, or bar fights, but real SD.  keep in mind that judo was/is used as standard training for many police departments.
> 
> judo does overemphasize the sport aspect, imo.  but it is still very applicable for SD, as is muay thai.
> 
> jf



Aren't the Police in Japan trained in Judo?


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## jarrod (Jan 24, 2009)

yes it was also popular with US PD after WWII, i believe.

jf


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## jarrod (Jan 24, 2009)

correction: i know the tokyo police contracted the kodokan back in the day, i don't know about the rest of the police in japan.  i can imagine that if the capital city police adopted it, others followed suit.

jf


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 24, 2009)

jarrod said:


> well now i think you're just talking silly.  tell you what, let's look up instances of judo used in real world situations vs bjj used in real world situations.  not mma, challenge matches, or bar fights, but real SD.  keep in mind that judo was/is used as standard training for many police departments.
> 
> judo does overemphasize the sport aspect, imo.  but it is still very applicable for SD, as is muay thai.
> 
> jf


 EXACTLY!

Lets also keep in mind where BJJ came from and what it really is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda

Back in the day those Judoka like Maeda traveled the world doing what the Gracies later on....taking on all challengers in 'NHB' style competitions, and beating them.

And lets not forget Masahiko Kimura......the Gracies certainly remember him well (and even casual MMA fans know the submission named after him)! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura


No, for self-defense Judo does quite well......i've used my skills many times as a police officer, and while submission grappling skills are great, in the street going to the ground is not often the best option......but a good sweep or throw very often is........


......of course all the ground submission skills are still present and accounted for in Judo as well, to be used when they are necessary.......the confusion seems come from the fact that most folks see the throws, and don't realize that the laundry list of submissions in BJJ are found in Judo, it's just that in sport competition the Judoka isn't given very much time with which to apply them before a restart for inactivity, which means they have to be applied quickly.......but altering the focus strictly for self-defense is a quite simple matter.


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## jarrod (Jan 24, 2009)

speaking of police applications, there are several cops who train where i do.  one of them recently had a part in apprehending a rapist who they had to foot chase through some back yards.  he tai-otoshi'ed him into a woodpile.  suspect restrained!

score one for judo.  

jf


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## SensibleManiac (Jan 24, 2009)

Although I can understand the argument that it isn't complete self defense, but throw someone on the street and tell me it isn't effective self defense.


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## matt.m (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't agree wholeheartedly.  I believe it comes down to the emphasis that the head instructor of the dojo chooses.



Freestyler777 said:


> but you agree that judo is shifting it's emphasis, from jujitsu to Olympic Sport?
> 
> *As stated, it is about the workout and the emphasis in which it is taught.  I personally could care less about tournaments.  Can my students use what is taught by me to smear someone on the asphalt?  The answer is yes.*
> 
> ...


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## jarrod (Jan 25, 2009)

hey, i was surfing around the self defense forum, & look what i found!



Freestyler777 said:


> For the past ten years, my mind has been fixated on finding 'the best' self-defense. So now is my final dissertation on which 'style' is best.
> 
> I would say that boxing, or kickboxing, or any sport where the striking with the hands is the best self-defense. Boxing however, has no martial art characteristics to it. It is just a brawl with gloves on.
> 
> ...


 
so why did your opinion of judo as a self-defense choice change so much?

jf


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## seasoned (Jan 25, 2009)

GoJu karate, as well as other karate styles, have stomp kicks for one reason. Gap distance, disrupt balance, strike, sweep or throw as in Judo, then stomp. If you go to the ground also, something drastically went wrong, from gap forward. This statement has nothing to do with diminishing any form of grappling, but everything to do with the principles of SD. End result is, you do what you do, and I do what I do, and for that day, one lives and one dies. When you lock into one form of battle, this can be seen as sport, but in SD all forms of battle are at our disposal, as shown in traditional kata.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 25, 2009)

self-defense or not, what is important is the benefit that a certain art can bestow. Judo practitioners are extremely stable as well as quick and explosive. Judo trains balance and balance is one of the most important aspects of fighting. Basically, as i see it Judo specifically focusses on the most basic as well as direct approach to fighting although it is not lacking the technical side either. I have most recently had the chance to experience the strength of judopractitioners first hand. Of course it depends on the person...how they train-what aspects they cover and what weaknesses remain.

In judo, there is also a high level of freedom. Aside from things like mma and freefighting or sanshou, sanda, judo is probably one of the roughest yet still gentle and non destructive martial arts. The rough part though is what makes the judo practitioner so tough. Basically, you don't need to be destructive in the slightest to be a tough or skillfull person. It's simply a state of being. 

Judo trains all out fighting. Even if there are no strikes there is great freedom in judo. I am not saying there is no freedom in others styles for example those that utilizte striking. Striking is a basic and vital aspect of no holds barred real fighting naturally. But basically in all other aspects in life including the ma, striking is perceived as demeaning. One could argue that getting tossed on your *** is too, but i believe that the essence of a strike is more directly aggressive than to close in and become entangled with someone. On top of this, if striking were to be permitted to be all out no doubt the martial art would become as brutal as mma or ufc at best. An effective strike is one that causes direct damage.

So that means that if one only practices hitting bags that have no emotions or partners that don't resist and without real contact, it boils down to alot of theory little real experience. It is comparable to someone that says he is a great race car driver but has not yet actually driven a car only sit inside and studied how to do it. 
That is why Martial arts like judo with realistic sparring are one of the quickest ways to basic toughness and balance to stay on ones feet. 

I have come up with a kindof wacky comparison...the spiders web- that is that a spider creates a web and then he waits for his victim to become entangled therein...this is how i would describe nature, aiki and the cosmos . You don't know see spiders spinning bags or butterflynets and then run around swooping all over trying to catch bugs. However, that is exactly the case when it comes to muscle, powermoves and wrestling principles. If it won't go in, there are still ways to force it to go in and force does matter. 
So the net of the natural spider is like the techniques of the gods whereas the latter are the techniques of man. But if man can defeat the god, then it must be an imperfect god. And imperfection is not acceptable.
The only way to truly achieve any true security, toughness as well as the benefits of sportsmanship and the communion of souls is to get down and dirty-that is idealy without killing or maiming yourself or your partner. 

I do believe that if one specifically trains for self defense or a perfect system, then it would be of paramount importance to master the arts of striking, but everyone knows that in a real situation, no matter how well you prepare, it is hard to respond correctly under pressure and with ones moral compass spinning out of control. That is why it is most important to always have a realistic attitude about ones own personal levels of strength and aim to elimanate ones weaknesses.

j 



j


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## CDKJudoka (Jan 26, 2009)

How about for something far simpler than just straight self defence. One thing that judo taught me was to *fall properly* when thrown or swept. Think about how many times in a fight a person gets hurt from falling in the tussle. As a judoka, that is one of the main parts of the training, and the most important. What good is being able to defend yourself with strikes if you are pushed down and you end up with a broken arm or worse a concussion. I think judo, or the throwing arts that is has spawned from make a great edition to ANY SD centred arts. But that is just my opinion.


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## seasoned (Jan 26, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> How about for something far simpler than just straight self defence. One thing that judo taught me was to *fall properly* when thrown or swept. Think about how many times in a fight a person gets hurt from falling in the tussle. As a judoka, that is one of the main parts of the training, and the most important. What good is being able to defend yourself with strikes if you are pushed down and you end up with a broken arm or worse a concussion. I think judo, or the throwing arts that is has spawned from make a great edition to ANY SD centred arts. But that is just my opinion.[/quote
> 
> Very good point. Falling was always taught in my karate dojo, right from the first day.


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## Freestyler777 (Jan 30, 2009)

jarrod said:


> hey, i was surfing around the self defense forum, & look what i found!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
my opinion changed because I am a nut.  :soapbox:

judo is applicable to SD, especially the newaza.  BJJ/Submission wrestling is essentially submission-oriented newaza.  So It's all good.  I am training BJJ now, so I guess I am trying to rationalize that the martial art I am doing is best.  Judo is great, just like any other grappling art.

IMO, in the standing phase of the combat, punching is more reliable than kicking (although both work well) and in ground combat, position is more important than submission holds.  But there are no hard and fast rules.  You use what you know and what is instinctive at that moment of crisis.  

Now that you remind me of my previous post, and my fluctuating mind states, I would rephrase that as punching and matwork are the essential elements of unarmed combat.  Now when you talk about weapons, foul tactics, and mulitiple opponents, then we get into Krav Maga and JJJ territory....But the point is i was mistaken.  There are aspects of judo that are reliable SD.  And Muay Thai is good too.  So is any full-contact one-on-one sport.  So I stand corrected.


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## jarrod (Jan 30, 2009)

personally i think you need familiarity with all ranges of fighting, & a specialization in one or two ranges.  for example, guys like anderson silva can almost entirely ignore throwing & takedowns because he is _so_ good on his feet or on his back.  or in his heyday chuck liddell didn't have to have much of a submission game since his takedown defense was so good, coupled with his powerful striking.

no need to rationalize your current style as the best.  if what you're training is effective & a good fit for you, then it's all good.  

jf


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## redantstyle (Jan 30, 2009)

all styles specialize.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 30, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> How about for something far simpler than just straight self defence. One thing that judo taught me was to *fall properly* when thrown or swept. Think about how many times in a fight a person gets hurt from falling in the tussle. As a judoka, that is one of the main parts of the training, and the most important. What good is being able to defend yourself with strikes if you are pushed down and you end up with a broken arm or worse a concussion. I think judo, or the throwing arts that is has spawned from make a great edition to ANY SD centred arts. But that is just my opinion.


The ability to fall properly, taught to me in Judo and Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, has saved me from more injuries than even the ability to fight has, on and off the job!


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## chinto (Feb 3, 2009)

as I understand it, at shodan kodokan starts to teach the parts of jujitsu that was taken out of it for sport reasons.  ( i am not a judoka so can not say for sure that this is true.)

I can say that parts of older school kodokan judo are applicable to SD, and that most of the same techniques in one way or other have always been present in Okinawan Karate. 

the other thing i can say is that to go to the ground with some one in a real SD situation is a bad idea! they never come singly and while your doing your BJJ thing down there his buddy will kick your head in!  better to sweep or throw and then brake something or strike something  from the standing position so you can react to the next attacker. I know that judo and jujitsu like Karate and most arts developed for SD do the same things basically. some what diferently at times but the same thing.


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