# What Is Wrong With This...?



## Josh (Nov 26, 2005)

http://big-files.websitewizard.com/21165/files/unprotected/Contact_Flow.mov



Some of you might or might have done this type of Art and Training.


I must admit it looks interesting and the Older guy seems to have Mikhail's movements in that he's hitting and dodging and etc...


Thanks.


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## samurai69 (Nov 27, 2005)

looks like the russian version of sticky hands

the more RMA stuff i see the more interested i am becoming in it, hopefully whilst i am in uk there will be some chances to see systema in action


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## arnisador (Nov 27, 2005)

I can see the sticky hands comparison...but, at times it looks like both are striking at the same time, without defending?


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## MattW (Nov 27, 2005)

Actually, that isn't Russian at all. Its called "Ki Chuan Do." I don't know anything about the validity of the art or practicality. From the video clip, though, something tells me that they have a misconception of  "flow drill," as the kind I've been witness and participant in. It looks like the random chaos of a cat fight, just crazy slapping.


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## Ironman (Nov 27, 2005)

MattW said:
			
		

> Actually, that isn't Russian at all. Its called "Ki Chuan Do." I don't know anything about the validity of the art or practicality. From the video clip, though, something tells me that they have a misconception of "flow drill," as the kind I've been witness and participant in. It looks like the random chaos of a cat fight, just crazy slapping.


 
actually its called "controlled chaos" and its by John Perkins. Ki Chuan Do bares some similarites to RMA's but it's heavily rooted in RBSD, sort of like for newbies. They have some really nice drills for relaxation and such, ironically its what lead to RMA.


here is his book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0736003517/102-7141712-7544143?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance


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## Jackal (Nov 27, 2005)

What is wrong with what?

I've met Mr. Perkins and had some exposure to KCD. It's good stuff. Direct and practical IMO. His book "Attack Proof" has some really good drills and ideas. Not RMA but certainly worthwhile - at least from what I've been exposed to.



> From the video clip, though, something tells me that they have a misconception of "flow drill," as the kind I've been witness and participant in. It looks like the random chaos of a cat fight, just crazy slapping.


 
Misconception? Do you mean as opposed to choreographed movements?


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## MattW (Nov 27, 2005)

"Misconception? Do you mean as opposed to choreographed movements?"

Not necessarily choreographed, thought I have done those, but also I've done flow exercises that are based around free movement. I don't think I really meant misconception. Didn't mean it to offend, was just joking about how the first pair doing the drill reminded me of a "cat fight." Generally, when I have been exposed to flow exercises it was attack, escape counter, counter their counter, make mistake, learn, continue, etc. I was remarking that the beginning of the video clip looked like a random volley of slaps, not typically following the style of flow exercises that I've done. I typed the misconception part midway through the clip and hadn't seen the rest of it yet. Later in the clip, it takes more form, as the the kind of model I talked about earlier.

Having just read the website, its called Ki Chuan Do and Guided Chaos. Also just read about the video clip, "Contact Flow." It says:
"Contact Flow is a 2 or MORE person sensitivity exercise somewhat similar to chi sao or push-hands except that it is completely free-form and anything goes (including ground-fighting). It is usually performed very slowly to maximize creativity and development of the nervous system but can be done at any speed up to and including maximum adrenaline velocity (this obviously requires a very high level of skill so that training partners don't seriously injure each other)."


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## kage110 (Nov 29, 2005)

MattW said:
			
		

> Actually, that isn't Russian at all. Its called "Ki Chuan Do." I don't know anything about the validity of the art or practicality. From the video clip, though, something tells me that they have a misconception of "flow drill," as the kind I've been witness and participant in. It looks like the random chaos of a cat fight, just crazy slapping.


 
My opinion has lead me down the route of viewing real combat as just that - random chaos. I have to admit to having read and absorbed some of Mr Perkin's ideas and integrated them with my own so where one ends and the other begins I do not know but I view any martial art that tries to impose order on combat as somewhat missing the point. Learning to be comfortable in a chaotic situation is more useful than trying to organise chaos into an orderly manner. In a practical sense I haven't tried any of Mr Perkin's exercises so I can't comment on the effectiveness but his book, Attack Proof, is one of the few around I view with much respect. Maybe he isn't saying exactly what the RMA teachers are but that doesn't mean he isn't saying something worthwhile. Just my 2 pence worth....


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## MattW (Nov 29, 2005)

I agree, real combat is complete chaos. What I love most is that training for it gives you the ability to just relax in its onslaught, deal with it calmy, and explore every possibility. Chaos doesn't become a problem.


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## CrankyDragon (Nov 29, 2005)

MattW said:
			
		

> I agree, real combat is complete chaos. What I love most is that training for it gives you the ability to just relax in its onslaught, deal with it calmy, and explore every possibility. Chaos doesn't become a problem.


EXACTLY!  Real combat or fight of any kind, never looks like in the dojo or the field.

There was a statement (Im retired from Combat Arms, so I can appericiate it) about the US Military... The saying goes that combat is disorganized chaos, and the US is so good at it because we practice it on a daily basis.  Well, its pretty much true.  Were the kings of putting lipstick on pigs and dressing up a dog for a show, but we get the job done!  In combat, we encounter the same confusion that we train with, so its a natual adaptation.

Form, style and technique doesnt mean squat if you end up knocked out cold, and if thats your focus in combat than you can/wil be defeated.  To let it flow naturally, that is key.

This kinda goes back to Bruce Lee, a form without a form, a style that is not a style.  I think he was closer to reality than man MAs will admit.

Now grasshopper, can you snatch this pebble from my hand?


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## kage110 (Dec 1, 2005)

CrankyDragon said:
			
		

> Now grasshopper, can you snatch this pebble from my hand?


 
Only if I can I do this first! :btg:

Grasshopper


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