# How do you know if Tai Chi isn't for you?



## charyuop (Nov 6, 2006)

I guess it happens to every beginner, but I think the worst enemy of Tai Chi beginners is discouragement. I have been thinking if it was not better go into another MA and keep Tai Chi just as healthy system (I like Tai Chi too much to quit it completely).
The esoterism that there is in this art really kills beginners. Everyday you read, hear in class or by words of experienced practitioners new things that pile up with old things...all of them far away from beginner's understanding.
"Concentrate on the Dan Tien". It is easy say concentrate on the Dan Tien, but what actually means? Think at your belly? Is it moving in and out properly? Concentrate on something that it is supposed to be there, but that I really don't know what it is?
"Use intent". Yea sure having the intent of hitting someone is good, but if you have to be relaxed what intent is? Just think oh ok there is someone in front of me? Well maybe I could try to relax the body and actually pretend to hit someone...oops tension in the palm of the hand.
"Heavy breathing can be sign of use of muscles". Well yes I have heavy breathing because my legs gets tired. But I don't have to use leg muscles (this is my daily new discovery) because they have to be relaxed. Ok so why do I train heavily my legs everyday and have sore muscles?

I am not one of those that wants something and wants it now, but all this abstract things are so hard to understand. One day you can fool yourself and say "oh ok, I know what they mean and I will keep working towards that way", the next they you say "but who do I want to fool, this is just plain empty movements which will lead me nowhere". It might be enough a day of wrong blood pressure that might cause a little poor circulation and makes you have different feelings to give you the idea wow I am on the right path...followed by a couple of healthy weeks where you feel "normal" and there you think, ok I got lost again.


Hee hee, just had to vent frustration....


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## Flying Crane (Nov 6, 2006)

This is an excellent post.

I too train tai chi, have been now for about 8 or 9 years.  I don't feel that I understand it very well.  I concentrate on the forms, do them the best I can, but I don't understand, nor feel, the chi flow and stuff.

I spend most of my time practicing external martial arts.  I am still young enough to do this, and I enjoy it more and find it more interesting and satisfying.  That is just my own personal feelings.  

But I keep a connection to my tai chi as well.  It definitely takes a back seat to my external training, but I made a deliberate decision to do that.  I am sure my tai chi would be much better if I made it my main focus, but that's not what my interest is.

However, eventually I may become too old or injured to be able to practice my external stuff.  Then, I can switch over and make my tai chi the focus of my practice.  So I keep up with it enough to not forget it, and hopefully my understanding continues to grow, even if it is slow.  I don't pretend that I am making great progress, but at the same time, looking back, I think that I definitely HAVE made SOME progress.  It is just slow and gradual and nebulous and difficult to clearly define.

So I guess what I am saying is that I understand your feelings and frustrations.  If you want to train something else, do so if that gives you more satisfaction and if your interst lies there.  But keep connected to your tai chi as well.  I think if you practice an external Chinese art as well as tai chi, the two arts will actually complement each other and you might find your growth in both takes off faster.

In my case, I study tai chi and external arts under the same sifu, so it makes it easier to keep a connection to both methods.  I don't have to attend separate sessions and stuff to have lessons in one or the other.  If your sifu can teach you both, I think you will find it easier and your training will be more satisfying.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 6, 2006)

I have been studying Yang Style Tai Chi for 12 years and I recently got and still do get very frustrated. I have also pretty much taken time off from it to train Sanda for awhile and I am enjoying the training. But this does not mean I stopped or gave up on tai chi, I still train my forms and when I get the chance I still do push hands. And I fully agree with what Crane has said, keep a connection to it, because it can be a real pain to let something go and then go back to it later if you stop all together, I did this with Xingyi and I know it is not easy to go back. Now I at least keep a link to my Xingyi through San ti shi training and that is the root of Xingyi. So you may need to step back and take a look or you may just nee to take a day or 2 and not train or think about Tai Chi at all. But I would not let it go longer than that, particularly in the beginning. 

My other thought here is you are either over thinking it or being told to over think it and this can be very overwhelming to get all of this to work together. 

As a beginner just worry about the form that is all, don&#8217;t worry about Qi, dantian, application, or anything else. Just worry about getting the form correct and the rest will follow. Example; If you start training something like Ba Duan Jin (8 peices of brocade Qigong) you have a lot of movements to figure out and there are different points to think about and breathing to think about and qi flow to think about. But in the beginning you ONLY focus on the movements and getting so you can remember them without much thought. Only then do you think about points and Qi flow. Tai chi, at least to me, is the same. Form first the rest is later, you need to be aware Qi is part of the training, but in the begining that is all you need. 

And it does take time, a lot of time. If you listen to Tung Ying Cheih it takes 7 years of fulltime study with a Sifu.

As for how does one tell if Tai Chi is for them, I wish I could answer that, but I can&#8217;t? That is all up to the person that is training tai chi to decide.

I have another thought here, but I will wait to see what other responses you get before I say anything.


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## bushidomartialarts (Nov 6, 2006)

i have a similar problem with aikido.

i very much _want_ to like aikido.  i absolutely respect the philosophy of aikido and find the motion beautiful and elegant.  

i've had the privilege of studying under extremely talented and caring for three different periods over the past decade, totalling about 1 1/2 years of training.

and i simply don't enjoy class.

i will probably keep trying from time to time until it clicks.  that's what i did with tai chi, and it only took three tries before that worked for me.

hang in there, and don't be too hard on yourself if now isn't your time.


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## charyuop (Nov 6, 2006)

Oh no, don't misunderstand...I love Tai Chi, I adore it. I would never give it up. My daily hour of forms is always there and I do it because I have fun. The movements, low stances, the lateral twisting of the feet. When I do not practice forms I usually have fun stepping Tai Chi style and turn my body in Tai Chi style, just for fun.
Even if I have to go on doing "dead forms" I will do it. I brought my wife into it and when my daughter turns 4 or 5 if she is interested I will teach her too.
My frustration is the lack of understanding of the "other side" of the coin. If I have to use Tai Chi purely with brutal force it is not the same MA.

But as I said I guess it was just pure frustration.


P.S. Aikido would have been my other choice, I find that Art very appealing.


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## KOROHO (Nov 6, 2006)

Aikido and Taichi are very much the same art.  The main difference is in the approach to teaching it.  I teach both.  Some people like the Taichi approach, some prefer the Aikido.  Some do both.

I think many beginners get frustrated with Taichi because it's too slow and they don't understand it.  They get bored or frustrated and leave before they have been around long enough to appreciate it. 

I felt that perhaps I was not expressing the depth of Taichi early on and the new students were understimating the amount of time it would take to learn.  So with this last group be beginners, I pretty much buried them with information and really overwhlemd them.  Instead of thinking there's not much too it, they felt it was going to take a life time to learn.  Then I told them it will take a life time to learn, but we're going to go a lot slower from now on.
Only 1 of the 7 has dropped out.  A much better ratio than previous.

You might want to try practicing Aikido and Taichi together and see how you like that combination.  I just love it.


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## dmax999 (Nov 6, 2006)

My suggestion for any "Is this MA right for me?" is, decide what you want to get from an MA.  You want to win UFC tournament, TKD gold medal in olympics, enter wushu tournaments, break bricks, defend yourself?  No MA does all this, but once you have your requirement you can easily bring down the list of MAs to something manageable.

Tai Chi is a MA for those interested in skill defeating strength.  It is also one of the few MAs that will not damage you over time and will let you practice fully well beyond the age of 80.  However, if you wait to learn Tai Chi after you are too old to do any other MA it will be very difficult for you to learn.  Tai Chi also has long elegent forms, and forms with weapons.  It has push hands, a sparring where you are very unlikely to get hurt.  You can also move it all the way to full contact sparring if you wish.

Most Tai Chi people do not intend to spar and few even want to try push hands.  They want something that truly is a challenge to learn and they can continue to grow in skill over their entire life instead of getting weaker with age as most MAs do.


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## charyuop (Nov 7, 2006)

Last night I had a look into Aikido teachers in my small town and there is a school, the only one. This morning I sent an email to the email address of the school and if the schedule agrees with my Tai Chi schedule (I always have Tai Chi in first position) I will start taking Aikido lessons...
hopefully I won't mix up all the things I learn and make a huge mess hee hee.
I think I might like Aikido, I see it as a combination of Tai Chi and Chin Na...LOL maybe I am completely wrong.


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## KOROHO (Nov 7, 2006)

Charyuop,

You are not completely wrong.
Taichi and Aikido teach and apply the the same principles.  As you start to learn Aikido technqiues, if you have not yet learned the applications to your Taichi forms, you will start to see the applications in Aikido. 

I would not call Aikido a combination of Taichi and Chin Na because there is not the seizing and grabbing of Chin Na.  Of course there are different schools of Chin Na, but all share things in common that are not really found in Aikido.

I have been doing my own research and comparisons and had been greatly criticized on board like this for declaring that they are so similar.  But there are others that have done the same work and drawn the same conclusions, even before me.  I recently discovered Sugawara Sensei and his excellent work.  Here's a link http://www.santarosaaikido.com/sugawara.html


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## charyuop (Nov 7, 2006)

LOL the only think I don't like is somersault, I haven't done 1 in like 20/25 years.

So if few people said Tai Chi and Aikido have alot in common, does that mean Aikido is a MA that doesn't demand alot from body and can be successfully used at old age as well?


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## KOROHO (Nov 8, 2006)

Aikido and Taichi are essentially the same art, although they tend to be practiced differently.

You can still train in Aikido at older ages.  You just may not be able to do all the breakfalls after a while.

But in Taichi, if you learn and practice the applications of the forms you can also find yourself doing a lot of breakfalls just as in Aikido.

As you age you will likely find yourself modifying your training in either art, but you can train in both well into old age.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2006)

KOROHO said:


> Aikido and Taichi are essentially the same art


 
I agree they have similarities but I do not feel they are essentially the same art. There are some fairly big differences.


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## charyuop (Nov 9, 2006)

Well I found an instructor. He trains in his home and next Wed. I will start Aikido. I looked online and I found out he is a godan, thus should be an excellent instructor, Mr. Doug Hanson. I am eager to start


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 10, 2006)

charyuop said:


> Well I found an instructor. He trains in his home and next Wed. I will start Aikido. I looked online and I found out he is a godan, thus should be an excellent instructor, Mr. Doug Hanson. I am eager to start


 
Good luck and enjoy the training


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## Goldendawn8 (Nov 16, 2006)

Tai Chi and Aikido are very different in my opinion. To begin with Tai Chi is part of the trinity of Chinese martial arts along with Qigong and Kung fu. Plus some forms of Tai Chi are very similar to Kung fu. Finally effective Tai Chi intergrates Chi Gong into the forms and is truly the force driving it. I believe Yang style is not enough alone, but fine when combined with a more passionate style that connects you to your source of power or core. 
I myself have only studied Bu Di Zhen and Yang style Tai Chi and numerous styles of hard martial arts.
Finally my advice would be to stay with your current teacher only if your training connects to your center and grounds you while increasing your vitality.


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## charyuop (Nov 17, 2006)

Actually in my first classes of Aikido we have learnt some basics. Feet position is a bit different from Tai Chi. But as first exercises we have learnt how to yield, stick and lead our opponent...sound that familiar? Moreover we are not supposed to used muscular strength, sound that familiar?
Ok, the movement will be different, otherwise they would be the same Art, but I think they use the same principles.
Aikido by what I learnt so far it is not a hard style. You see, Tai Chi might have in common some movements with shaolin kung fu, like long fist, but they don't have the principles in common.

So when we can say that 2 Arts have something in common? When they share movements or principles? I think principles.


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## Goldendawn8 (Nov 17, 2006)

The major difference between Tai Chi is Kung fu is along the lines of what you said of the latter using muscular strength and Tai Chi using more inner strength. You could argue that most martial arts follow the same principles of avoiding being hurt and eliminating the threat as quickly as possible.
Outsiders and beginners to Tai Chi are often mistaken about it's uses for practical means of self-defense. I would definiatly rate Tai Chi more powerful than Kung fu just as soft Qigong is stronger than hard. Hard Qigong strengthens your body while soft Qigong works on a much more metaphysical level.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2006)

Goldendawn8 said:


> Outsiders and beginners to Tai Chi are often mistaken about it's uses for practical means of self-defense.


 
If you don't mind a question, are you saying Tai Chi is not practical for self-defense?


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## charyuop (Nov 17, 2006)

I was not referring to power, because power can be generated in many ways. I meant the way power is generated. I am convinced that power in Tai Chi and power in kung fu comes from different "roots".


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## Goldendawn8 (Nov 17, 2006)

I can say without any doubt that Bu Di Zhen Tai Chi is very effective for self-defense. The one drawback would be that it would take months for most without prior martial arts training to be completly competent, which is why a secondary hard martial art is essential to this end.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2006)

charyuop said:


> I was not referring to power, because power can be generated in many ways. I meant the way power is generated. I am convinced that power in Tai Chi and power in kung fu comes from different "roots".


 
Depends on the Kung Fu.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2006)

Goldendawn8 said:


> I can say without any doubt that Bu Di Zhen Tai Chi is very effective for self-defense. The one drawback would be that it would take months for most without prior martial arts training to be completly competent, which is why a secondary hard martial art is essential to this end.


 
Is Bu Di Zhen Tai Chi Gao style?

I have been in Tai Chi for many years, mostly Yang with some Chen, and although I will agree it does take longer to be able to use Tai Chi as a martial art than say a Shaolin style it is not necessary to take a secondary hard style in order to be effective in Tai Chi. 

As a matter of fact a secondary hard style would be counter productive to learning Tai Chi as a martial art, they are fundamentally different.


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## Goldendawn8 (Nov 17, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> Is Bu Di Zhen Tai Chi Gao style?
> 
> I have been in Tai Chi for many years, mostly Yang with some Chen, and although I will agree it does take longer to be able to use Tai Chi as a martial art than say a Shaolin style it is not necessary to take a secondary hard style in order to be effective in Tai Chi.
> 
> As a matter of fact a secondary hard style would be counter productive to learning Tai Chi as a martial art, they are fundamentally different.


 
Yes, it is Gao Style. Yang style would never be effective in combat alone unlike Bu Di Zhen which is more similar to Chen style. 
The Wudang monks themselves teach Qigong, Tai Chi, and Kung fu in harmony with eachother. This comes from first hand experience while training in China. Plus Tai Chi has it's roots on Wudang mountain.


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## charyuop (Nov 17, 2006)

Here you keep talking about hard MAs, but I don't see Aikido as a hard MA.

At this point I have a question.
Tai Chi is based on Chi and Aikido is based on Ki (same as Chi). Both are soft Arts, or maybe Aikido more closer to a soft-hard, but definetly not hard.
So why is it that to be able to use Tai Chi in combat it takes years, while Aikido no?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2006)

Goldendawn8 said:


> Yes, it is Gao Style. Yang style would never be effective in combat alone unlike Bu Di Zhen which is more similar to Chen style.
> The Wudang monks themselves teach Qigong, Tai Chi, and Kung fu in harmony with eachother. This comes from first hand experience while training in China. Plus Tai Chi has it's roots on Wudang mountain.


 
I have been down this road before waaaaaay to many times but I do not agree. 

True Yang style by itself if trained correctly is very effective as a martial art. The real problem with Yang style is that there are so few real teachers out there teaching it and a whole lot of people calling what they do Yang style when it is in effect not or not traditional or neutered of its Martial arts roots. Or worse you get someone that has trained a hard style and combines it with Yang and calls it Yang style martial arts. I have seen this too and it is way to tense and not anywhere near as relaxed as it should be. 

I have trained Yang for 12 years and I know it is effective, most unfortunately I have also had to use it as a martial art out in the real world. I have also trained other styles but the most recent and the longest is Yang and I will admit it is not my favorite Tai Chi style, Chen is but I have to say real Yang style is very effective all by itself as a martial art. 

If you are lucky enough to find a true Yang style sifu, believe me it is very effective, I have had 2 throw me around like a rag doll and one almost rip me in two pieces over the years. My sifu is from China and he was a student of Tung Ying Chieh. Also Cheng Manching style as taught by William CC Chen is very effective, by itself as a martial art.

As to Tai Chi roots on Wudang Mountain, it depends on whom you talk to; there are at least 3 or 4 roots and or lineages thrown around. According to the Chen family it has its roots with them and the Wudang mountain story is a myth. The only connection to Wudang is the Chen family founder also studied Taoism.

Also you must take into account that Yang comes directly from Chen and it was very effective then and all the way up to Yang Chengfu and his students and his students students who now teach some of us, if we're lucky. 

As to training in China, I have been there as well and I will say what I saw of Yang style was rather badly done but what I saw was 24 form. Most unfortunately the only traditional I saw was 3 older gentlemen as they finished the very last 3 postures. I also saw Wu style, Sun Style and Chen done very very well.  

If I may ask, how long did you train at Wudang?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2006)

charyuop said:


> Here you keep talking about hard MAs, but I don't see Aikido as a hard MA.
> 
> At this point I have a question.
> Tai Chi is based on Chi and Aikido is based on Ki (same as Chi). Both are soft Arts, or maybe Aikido more closer to a soft-hard, but definetly not hard.
> So why is it that to be able to use Tai Chi in combat it takes years, while Aikido no?


 
I do not consider Aikido a hard style and I have not trained Aikido, but I have spared a few and I felt I was softer and more relaxed then they were. Also the fact that I would adhere and follow so well seemed to be a problem. However it is possible that the Aikido people I spared would not be considered the best by aikido standards that I do not know. 

One of them did slam me pretty hard though so I do not doubt the effectiveness of Aikido at all, I am just saying that I feel Tai Chi is more internal by nature and more relax in application. 

And now that every Aikido person out there wants to kick my but, I will respectfully shut my yap and go hide under a rock in an undisclosed location.


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## dmax999 (Nov 18, 2006)

I had always thought Akido was developed by a Karataka master that went to China for a couple years and learned Tai Chi (This is a theory I had heard before).  The creator of Akido did travel in China for three years and then develop Akido, but it is not know what he did there.

Tai Chi has direct strikes, puches and kicks, done with FaJing, which when done correctly is the hardest your body will be able to strike.  I did not think Akido had the same type of strikes in its system.

Movements between styles have been brought up as a difference, but Tai Chi has no defined set of movements, it is more like a set of principles with the suggested movements in the forms.  It should be possible to perform Akido following Tai Chi principles and then claim that you used either MA to defend yourself.

I always considered Akido another offshoot of Tai Chi, or a combination of Judo and Tai Chi.


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