# grappling elements in karate



## angrywhitepajamas (Aug 5, 2003)

I have noticed that most karate seems to neglect grappeling and close in fighting.  Is this simply because I am still in kyu's, too dense to notice, or would it simply have been implied in the origional training?


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## MountainSage (Aug 5, 2003)

AngryPJ's
I believe all the arts have some degree of grappling and close fighting, yet some art have ignored that aspect to promote a sport type fighting system.  Many linear arts don't have a significant number of grappling movements as compared to circular arts.  I know my art of TKD does have some grappling, but has been ignored for the sake of sport.

Mountain Sage


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## MJS (Aug 6, 2003)

There are 2 different types of grappling that you can look at.  The first one, is your standing grappling.  Most MA teach tech. against grabs, chokes, etc. which is considered your standing grappling.  Also, your wrist locks and controlling tech. are your standing grappling.

The second is your grappling on the ground.  This mostly consists of your Judo, wrestling, and BJJ.  The majoirty of stand up arts do not include this in their regular training.  It is usually something that either the student does outside of their regualr training, or that the Inst of the school decides to add into the curriculum.

Alot of trad. schools, IMO, tend to ignore the ground aspect, due to the fact that they think that either no fight ever goes to the ground, or that they themselves will never be taken to the ground.  I feel that in order to be well rounded, you need to have training in punching, kicking, the clinch, or trapping, and the ground.

Mike


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## James Kovacich (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> *I have noticed that most karate seems to neglect grappeling and close in fighting.  Is this simply because I am still in kyu's, too dense to notice, or would it simply have been implied in the origional training? *



In the traditional arts the techniques are learned over time and some are hidden. The keeping of the tradition as well as the evolution of our arts lies on the heads of our instructors. 

If there is some modifications to be made, I think they should be made. If they are not needed, then so be it!

:asian:


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## gojukylie (Aug 7, 2003)

I study Karate and we do, do quite a bit of grappling. I think it depends on your instructors and the influences they have had. If you are interested in Grappling, grab a partner and discover what you can do, because once you have the basics, you can develop your own close quarter, grappling and controlling techniques. No style locks the martial artist within it.


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## James Kovacich (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gojukylie _
> *I study Karate and we do, do quite a bit of grappling. I think it depends on your instructors and the influences they have had. If you are interested in Grappling, grab a partner and discover what you can do, because once you have the basics, you can develop your own close quarter, grappling and controlling techniques. No style locks the martial artist within it. *



We think alike!


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## goju.glenn (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gojukylie _
> * I study Karate and we do, do quite a bit of grappling. I think it depends on your instructors and the influences they have had. If you are interested in Grappling, grab a partner and discover what you can do, because once you have the basics, you can develop your own close quarter, grappling and controlling techniques. No style locks the martial artist within it.   *



I agree gojukylie.

Being taught how to grapple and apply close quarter techniques is something that can be both "taught" and also "made up". Find out what works and play with it. 

:karate:


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 8, 2003)

I don't intend to make kenpoist out or you but you will notice that return motion is half your art (am I right? of course I am) any ways while utilizing your opponents targets to guide you motion you will find that quite often your oponent will try to avoid getting hit by closing the distance to tackle or just tie you up so you can no longer effectivly strike.  Your return motion will now play a greater role than just developing power. You can trap loose weopons, start a crank on his head, and work his balance into convinient inanimate objects. Taking you art into three dimensions is a dynamic way of utilizing the moves you already know.
Sean


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## IsshinryuKarateGirl (Aug 13, 2003)

I myself am being told over and over again by my sensai that he teaches a traditional dojo and we do a lot of grappling.  I find this to be a great way to start to clue yourself into making yourself notice the open targets and how to also open up those targets.  I also find this to be a great stress reliever, but that is no the point of this topic!  I do not know why your school doesn't cover grappling, but as gojukylie has said, it depends on your teacher's experiences and their influences.


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## angrywhitepajamas (Sep 8, 2003)

its probably the age difference.  Im younger than all the other people in the dojo by at least twenty years.and our teacher is definately more senior than I(  ), but that still dosen't stop my head from ringing with humility at the end of class


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## don bohrer (Sep 8, 2003)

Angry Pjs

My instructor started training with a BJJr and we are starting to see this trickle into our kenpo. This started as an exchange program more so than a desire to learn grappling. He lets the BJJr's use the space in exchange they teach him grappling. 

Againts an unskilled grappler any art you study will lend an advantage as long as you keep your head. It's when that world class champion visits your neck of the woods and jumps you that you'll be in trouble. Unless you have a bunch of your budies that will stomp him while he's tying you into a pretzel.


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## MJS (Sep 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _
> [
> 
> 
> ...


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## KenpoTess (Sep 11, 2003)

we incorporate grappling with our curriculum. Teaching falls, rolls , arm bars, leg bars, chokes,  etc.  I think it's especially important for the female student to be exposed to this area of training as most attacks will take a female to the ground quickly.  We also teach locks and  pressure points.  It's all good


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## gojukylie (Sep 14, 2003)

"Original Quote" --  {  I have noticed that most karate seems to neglect grappeling and close in fighting.  }

I have been thinking about this subject a little and I have an interesting thought. A sensei told me once, that nothing is as it seems in the art of karate-do. I now understand what was implied. 

What really defines grappling? "To grip and hold or wrestling with another, hand to hand".

Let us take a look at the reverse punch. As beginners, I think all styles introduce the use of 2 hands when punching reverse. One shoots out at the opponent, and the other pulls back to help the punching arm to thrust out, as we are taught, the 'Push, Pull' motion. 

Lets take a look at the reateating or "pulling back" arm. This hand can be used as a grappling tool. Before the punch comes out, the retreating arm grabs the opponent, to control them for a strong counter strike. You can manipulate, grip and hold them, with this arm and you will find grappling elements wil be introduced. 

That is one of the first things we are taught, and so many people fail to take the depth of their study beyond basic movements like punching and blocking. You will find that there are grappling elements in almost all techniques we are taught. 

Seek that depth.


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## MountainSage (Sep 14, 2003)

Kylie,
Where the heck where you when I started MA.  That statement is so deep in meaning I had to go back and reassess all my forms and training in general.  My instructor always tells me in training it's deeper not wider.  I am beginning to fully understand what he is saying.:asian:


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## Kempojujutsu (Sep 14, 2003)

Every one in the MMA says its worthless. But the Horse stance is what you do when you have someone in the mount, side mount or  even the guard. How about standing arm bar, legs are wide and you drop your body weigh to apply that lock.
Bob :asian:


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## D.Cobb (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gojukylie _
> *"Original Quote" --  {  I have noticed that most karate seems to neglect grappeling and close in fighting.  }
> 
> I have been thinking about this subject a little and I have an interesting thought. A sensei told me once, that nothing is as it seems in the art of karate-do. I now understand what was implied.
> ...



Original Okinawan Karate/ Kempo included grappling in it's basic make up. If you want to learn more about grappling and ground fighting(for karate-do ka and kenshi they are two different things), then explore your kata in depth. The truth you seek is in there.

--Dave

:asian:


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## kroh (Sep 16, 2003)

Hey there All...

Being a well rounded fighter means that one should be able to act in offense/defense from all positions of movements.

Whatever you can do from your feet you should be able to do from kneeling and then sitting and then your back.   IS your back some where that you want to be...absolutely not.  However, being able to fight your way back up to your feet is essential if in this position.

One of the instructors we see yearly at our school ( W. "Hoch" Hochheim) has an excelent program that teaches fighting at all elevations.

www.hockscqc.com 

One of the previous posts hit the nail on the head though.  When the combat strategies for the systems that we study were created, almost all of them considered grappling.   Those movements are in the kata... Have your instructor point them out.  If he/she can't... Submit it to those on the forums from your system to point them out....Some one some where has seen the corect application...

This is the Net after all...

thanx for the minute
WalTartyon:


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## Shiatsu (Sep 18, 2003)

Kajukenbo karate definately incorporates grappling.  I believe some of the okinawan styles do a little bit as well.


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## kroh (Sep 18, 2003)

Hey there...

At the school where I train there is a system of Okinawan Karate-do called Uechi-ryu.   We see the kata for the system being trained all the time.  The Bunkai for the kata absolutely contains elements of throwing an oponent down and finishing them off.

you probably won't see any of these guys wrestling in the gaurd but the elements of fight by any means necessary are there in the kata.

Thanx for the minute...
WalT


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## D.Cobb (Sep 19, 2003)

*NAIHANCHI SHODAN*? , Shotokan people call it Tekki, and I'm sure that there are other names in other styles for it as well.

Haven't you ever wondered about the fact that it is only 2 dimensional? If you are on your back, and unable to get up, there are only 2 dimensions available to you. Same if you are on top of your opponent, and he is holding you down.

--Dave

:asian:


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## BushidoUK (Dec 16, 2003)

The style I train in is a freestyle system. (not competition focused). I was lucky enough to be taught by someone who was also dan graded in Jui Jitsu and he incorporated this into the syllabus. 
The traditional katas made so much more sense when more of the jui jitsu was used used as well as the karate. Sparring was also improved as the closer range gave more possibilities.
The two styles he was taught merged together almost seamlessly. We'll never be as good as a solid Jui Jitsu club who only practice in grappling but for an extension to karate I would recommend any karateka to include some form of grappling into their training.
Humility is a must, however. We have had guest instructors teach at the club and even their yellow belts could teach us a thing or two.


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## chaosomega (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *Every one in the MMA says its worthless. But the Horse stance is what you do when you have someone in the mount, side mount or  even the guard. How about standing arm bar, legs are wide and you drop your body weigh to apply that lock.
> Bob :asian: *



I know a takedown called the "Horse Stance Slam"...


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