# Comparing WC with russian Systema



## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey people! I would love to hear some opinions about similaritys between this to styles. Especialy from people who have experience in both(even if the hate wc or think it useless or something )!

I think they are very similar(havent trained Systema just watched dvds) if you look at it good enough!

One major diffrence I see is that in WC we are thought to react according in THE most efficient, practical(you know the principals..) way according to diffrent WC schools respectively. Anything else is not quite WC or is considered you need more training or could have done better... Now thats how *I* understand the philosophy of *most* WC teachers and practitoners.

Systema on the other side emphasises reacting instinctively and naturaly more. Thus it's harder being wrong according to the systema mong other things  For a lack of a better term it more of a JeetKuneDo-ish WC. JKDish in the sense of the Tao of Jeet Kune Do not as any particular "style" of JKD. Again this is my point of view! Feel free to correct me!

I would like to welcom the Systema people from their side of the forum to the discusion! Please share opinions!

P.S. You have Kadochnikov's Systema and Ryabko's Systema. In my opinion both are great but just to show you what it is heres a taste of Kadochnikov's systema by him himself: 





 (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceZhgo5uia0&feature=related (part 2)


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## Nolerama (Jan 7, 2009)

I have to ask: Why the comparison?

If you like both arts, train in both arts. See what works and what doesn't.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 7, 2009)

> I have to ask: Why the comparison?
> 
> If you like both arts, train in both arts. See what works and what doesn't.


 
Good question... I don't know, curiosity I guess... I don't know nothing about Systema accept from dvds and videos.

And I can't train in systema cuz the nearest one is a country away.

But thanks for the useful post!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 7, 2009)

There are similarities between lots of arts

I see similarities between Systema Breathing, movement and Taijiquan. 

But for me personally I would rather just learn more about Systema from what Systema is than by comparison. I have found comparisons of styles tends to lead to one jumping to conclusions based on prior knowledge or training and from that one can miss the point... it happened with me and systema actually after reading the book Let Every Breath... Secrets of the Russian Breath Masters and watching the video. Once I got past my prior training, assumptions and arrogance there were a few things that became much more clear that were surprisingly similar to what I know but just a bit different and rather impressive.

Actually it left me rather impressed with Systema.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 7, 2009)

> There are similarities between lots of arts
> 
> I see similarities between Systema Breathing, movement and Taijiquan.


 
Thats very true! Unfotunately few are able to admit it for varius reasons..



> But for me personally I would rather just learn more about Systema from what Systema is than by comparison. I have found comparisons of styles tends to lead to one jumping to conclusions based on prior knowledge or training and from that one can miss the point...


 
Yea I realise that I just didn't want to get banned for posting a Systema topic on a WC forum  Neither did I want to go to the Russian martial arts forum and post a thread: tell me everything you know! so I did this.



> Actually it left me rather impressed with Systema.


 
Yea, same here, looks like a great art!


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## profesormental (Jan 7, 2009)

Greetings.

Systema is very good training method, since it consists of evolving drills and subtle control of the body.

If you develop the stability and explosiveness of Wing Chun, then make the movements more fluid, you get the way Systema is executed.

I've gotten a lot out of it. Unfortunately, not all Systema instructors are made the same. Nor is there a codified method of transferring it... there are many details that are missed by students and teachers that can only be extracted from the top people by feeling what they do and seeing them in action.

The interesting thing is that while some things might look contradictory to Wing Chun training, it is actually complimentary.

There is a lot more, so if you have specific questions, feel free to ask.

Juan M. Mercado


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## Si-Je (Jan 7, 2009)

That's what I was kinda thinking, professormental.  I thought the two arts would be very complementary, judging by appearance of course, since I've never had a chance to train in systema.  
I am very curious about the art, and would love to know more about it.  Especially the way the handle weapons defenses.  It seems they take sensitivity to a whole 'nuther level with the knife defenses I've seen online.  
Almost like you couldn't stab a systema practitioner even if the blade was touching their skin because of their use of sensitivity. 
Very cool.  I'll have to see if I can find a video on that again.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 7, 2009)

What are the core principals to Systema?


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## Si-Je (Jan 7, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> What are the core principals to Systema?


 
I don't know.  It seems from the videos, relaxation and natural body movement and response in fighting.  But, I'm sure that only scratches the surface.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 7, 2009)

Does anyone know about the Core Principals?

 Has anyone seen Pai Mei Gung Fu. It is very similiar to Wing Chun...what do you think about it?

Would it be a cool mesh?




Si-Je said:


> I don't know. It seems from the videos, relaxation and natural body movement and response in fighting. But, I'm sure that only scratches the surface.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 8, 2009)

"Systema" is a generic term just as "Kung Fu".  There may be similarities with certain brands of Systema and Wing Chun, but there is no core curriculum, principles, or any relation whatsoever between one Systema and another unless they are originated from the same lineage (for lack of better work).  

Most likely, TS is reffering to "*Ryabko's Systema*".


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 8, 2009)

> Greetings.
> 
> Systema is very good training method, since it consists of evolving drills and subtle control of the body.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Profesor! Yea I've gotten the same feeling that it would be very complemantary. Would love an opetunity to train it/train with someone who has experinece in it! About specific questions... I don't know what to ask realy becouse I know so little about it to formulate meaningful questions upon that knowledge. But I know your very experienced and knowledgable from your other posts so I would be grateful for as much input on Systema that your time can spare!



> That's what I was kinda thinking, professormental. I thought the two arts would be very complementary, judging by appearance of course, since I've never had a chance to train in systema.
> I am very curious about the art, and would love to know more about it. Especially the way the handle weapons defenses. It seems they take sensitivity to a whole 'nuther level with the knife defenses I've seen online.
> Almost like you couldn't stab a systema practitioner even if the blade was touching their skin because of their use of sensitivity.
> Very cool. I'll have to see if I can find a video on that again.


 
Yea, what they do against knife attacks is truly amazing.. To me it looks like they do Chi Sao with there bare hands against an armed assailant! And the attacker can't get to them. I've seen Vladimir Vasiliev from Rybakovs Systema do that. I know theres been a thread opened here a while ago about knife attackes; to all interested I would strongly sudgest getting Vladimirs dvd on knife attacks.. Acctualy while getting it get yourself the one on improvised weapons and unarmed combat.. Well pretty much everything they do is quite amazing to me. Tho I feel that if in a knife confrontation your first technique should be running what they do looks like it could actualy work in a real life situation. I don't know about the rules on the forum so I would like to ask the moderators if it's ok to post it but I got an article some time ago about an american cop who was confident about his martial arts and went against a criminal who had a knife with his bare hands, putting away his pistol as he felt like he can control the situation without killing anybody... The pictures with that article are pretty gory... They show what happened to the cop becouse of it. He had countles wounds more then 5centimeter deep all over hes body. I think it would be very useful to see for those martial artist who are absolutely confident they could defend themself in a hypothetical situation against an armed attacker...



> "Systema" is a generic term just as "Kung Fu". There may be similarities with certain brands of Systema and Wing Chun, but there is no core curriculum, principles, or any relation whatsoever between one Systema and another unless they are originated from the same lineage (for lack of better work).
> 
> Most likely, TS is reffering to "*Ryabko's Systema*".


 
Yea, thanks for mentioning that! Em, I'm the ts right?  If so I've seen more of Rybakos systema then of Kadochnikovs one. But even though there are many slight diffrences about there approach(and also origin, history ofcourse) I feel both are great arts with similar approaches then in WC. I would like to discus both.

I'm interested in everything about it but to get people started; how did it work for you in real fights? Can you compare it to WC? How long does an average bloke take to get proficient in it? What are some of your training methods? How does that thing with punch absorbing work??? And that thing with punches that can make you crap, sick, pass out, happy or whatever?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 8, 2009)

http://www.russianmartialart.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systema

http://www.systemaspetsnaz.com/

Also talk to Brian

Systema to me is doing something that very few MAs do today and that is trying to prepare you for a multiple of possibilities for when and *"where"* you may need to defend yourself in all types of conditions with as little effort as possible and as relaxed as possible. I have a chart at home that if Brian does not see this I will try and post that goes over what Systema is trying to accomplish. Not all MA situations will occur on perfectly flat ground in an air conditioned and or heated area.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 8, 2009)

> Not all MA situations will occur on perfectly flat ground in an air conditioned and or heated area.


 
Yea, thats one of the reasons I respect Systema a lot. Cuz few martial arts realise that and thus unintentionaly lower their efficiency.

Who's Brian? Where can I find him?



> with as little effort as possible and as relaxed as possible


 
Hey guys, doesn't that remind you of what WC realy is at it's core adding that a WChunner would also stress the importance of doing all that in the shortest amount of time, doing the biggest amount of deamege possible? If you'd added that Xue, you would have quated my WC instructures most favorite saying  And even tho you didn't mention it Systema seems to strive towards just that.

And another question. Looks like this Rybakovs systema is more mainstream and also thought in America and Evrope but what about this Kadochnikovs stuff? Is that only abailable in Russia? Anybody has any experience with his systema?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 8, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1100670 said:
			
		

> Hey guys, doesn't that remind you of what WC realy is at it's core adding that a WChunner would also stress the importance of doing all that in the shortest amount of time, doing the biggest amount of deamege possible? If you'd added that Xue, you would have quated my WC instructures most favorite saying  And even tho you didn't mention it Systema seems to strive towards just that.


 
That is actually pretty much a Chinese Martial Arts thing.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 8, 2009)

> That is actually pretty much a Chinese Martial Arts thing.


 
Really? Didn't know that.. Funny how so many diffrent styles come from the same principals, aint it?


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## Franc0 (Jan 8, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> What are the core principals to Systema?


 
I would guess the "core principles" are what they call "The 4 Pillars", which are ;
1. Breathing -  to maintain consistent breathing during movements.
2. Relaxation - to maintain a relaxed state throughout the movement.
3. Movement - maintaining consistent, flowing movement (breathing & relaxing helps to accomplish this)
4. Form - maintaining the form by trying to keep as straight a spine as possible throughout the movement. When the opponents spine bends or twists, it's easier to break their structure.
Hope this helps.

Franco


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 8, 2009)

> I would guess the "core principles" are what they call "The 4 Pillars", which are ;
> 1. Breathing - to maintain consistent breathing during movements.
> 2. Relaxation - to maintain a relaxed state throughout the movement.
> 3. Movement - maintaining consistent, flowing movement (breathing & relaxing helps to accomplish this)
> ...


 
Beutiful! Thanks! I must admit that one of the reasons I created this topic was to make a point to the WC communitiy that there are things to be learned from other arts and that there are diffrent ways to accomplish same things but not neceseraly by conflicting with the core principals of WC or making that other approach neceseraly less effective. And if you watched the videos and read what this people had to say about principals I think you can see that a bit. Becouse in my experience WC ppl are usualy so into the whole effectivnes of WC in theory that they forget that its all give and take. To make a few lame examples; you give stability you take mobility, faster linear and slower circular, linear shorter path thus weaker(tho we kind of negate that in WC with body structure) circular longer path stronger.F=ma. 

Ok, I'm getting sleepy and forgot what else I wanted to say 

Thanks for all the useful posts!


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 8, 2009)

So do you guys see any benefits to a Wing Chun guy staying with his System alone and expanded and learning more from it with out taking and adding parts of other arts?

Do you think A wing Chun guy would benefit more by adding practices and principals from other Existing systems and creating a Kung Fu soup?


Or do you feel both are equal. An either party will come out even?




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1100827 said:
			
		

> Beutiful! Thanks! I must admit that one of the reasons I created this topic was to make a point to the WC communitiy that there are things to be learned from other arts and that there are diffrent ways to accomplish same things but not neceseraly by conflicting with the core principals of WC or making that other approach neceseraly less effective. And if you watched the videos and read what this people had to say about principals I think you can see that a bit. Becouse in my experience WC ppl are usualy so into the whole effectivnes of WC in theory that they forget that its all give and take. To make a few lame examples; you give stability you take mobility, faster linear and slower circular, linear shorter path thus weaker(tho we kind of negate that in WC with body structure) circular longer path stronger.F=ma.
> 
> Ok, I'm getting sleepy and forgot what else I wanted to say
> 
> Thanks for all the useful posts!


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 9, 2009)

> So do you guys see any benefits to a Wing Chun guy staying with his System alone and expanded and learning more from it with out taking and adding parts of other arts?
> 
> Do you think A wing Chun guy would benefit more by adding practices and principals from other Existing systems and creating a Kung Fu soup?
> 
> ...


 
I think WC is a great art. I also think that any art that specialises at any field and has existed over a longer period of time has more or less perfected what they want to do. For example: *I *think that boxing is pretty much the best form of fighting when only fists are allowed and when you have 10ounch gloves on your hand, *I *also belive that an kicking art such as Tea Kwon Do has pretty much done the best it can with leg attacks and perfecting the art of kicking(you can't do much more with a leg), *I *also belive that an art like Aikido(which I havent trained) which I understand as an art that wants to control an opponent more than hurt him(allthough my brother who trains it tells me it very similar and WC and also has very vicious attacks so who knows) has pretty much perfect the art of controling an opponent. WC for example I belive strives to find the perfect balance(between power and speed, balance mobility, defence and offense). I would say that most arts that specialise in what they do for an extended period of time have something useful to say but it's just diffrent aproaches to the same thing in the end.

I'm saying all this becouse a lot of people WC feel that an Aikido approach to fighting is wrong or not as efficient as WC approach. Or similar with other arts. But I think that any art that specialises has something useful to contribute. If your a WC guy like me and you want to complement you groundfighting, go train in BJJ or something and if you grasped the concepts of WC and understand them it shouldnt be to difficult to modify those few sport/control/not WC aspects to your WC game.

So as a conlusion I would say that even tho WC principals are great, a human lifespan is to sort for you to figure out every aspect of fighting by yourself. So other arts can help. A lot in my opinion. As other have said: in the very worst you know what to suspect from you attacker from that style. Now if your style allready has the best answers to everything then great! Don't train anything else. But I think if you truly belive that your misguided becouse nothing a man creates is ideal or absolute so we can allways lear new things.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 9, 2009)

Would you say the best to perfect your style so that it has all the answers is by fighting people of as many different styles and skill levels as you can. If you have Wing Chun and BJJ experience. Would that prepare you to fight a Tiger or Crane fighter? If you cross train TKD and Boxing along with BJJ will you become well rounded enough to defeat a Bak Mei fighter. Or is it really perfecting your art by fighting and adapting what you learn to sparring and challenging other fighters. Is this contact experience is what transforms your art into an Art that has the answers. Or is cross training each style you may come across the answer. 


As for cross training personally I see it as advantage. But I totally disagree with you guys reasoning for it. I cross train for a different reason. Not to know what the other guy is doing. In fact once you get to a certain level in just about any art. You will know what others are doing from their art just from watching or feeling them. But Cross training actually allows you to have more techniques an utilize confusion to an opponent who attempts to adapt your style. If you spar like a wrestler your opponent will try to out strike you. if you switch to wing chun he will try to keep his distance. Than switch to boxing or TKD or Long fist. So Inside outside or on the ground you terrorize your opponent. This is the reason to me for cross training. Not to gain some knowledge that can be gain in your art. But to be able to confuse your opponent and eliminate his strategy. When he comfortable with me boxing i usually switch to WC. He may think at first this guy is doing boxing or kick boxing...Then here comes the WC...




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1101290 said:
			
		

> I think WC is a great art. I also think that any art that specialises at any field and has existed over a longer period of time has more or less perfected what they want to do. For example: *I *think that boxing is pretty much the best form of fighting when only fists are allowed and when you have 10ounch gloves on your hand, *I *also belive that an kicking art such as Tea Kwon Do has pretty much done the best it can with leg attacks and perfecting the art of kicking(you can't do much more with a leg), *I *also belive that an art like Aikido(which I havent trained) which I understand as an art that wants to control an opponent more than hurt him(allthough my brother who trains it tells me it very similar and WC and also has very vicious attacks so who knows) has pretty much perfect the art of controling an opponent. WC for example I belive strives to find the perfect balance(between power and speed, balance mobility, defence and offense). I would say that most arts that specialise in what they do for an extended period of time have something useful to say but it's just diffrent aproaches to the same thing in the end.
> 
> I'm saying all this becouse a lot of people WC feel that an Aikido approach to fighting is wrong or not as efficient as WC approach. Or similar with other arts. But I think that any art that specialises has something useful to contribute. If your a WC guy like me and you want to complement you groundfighting, go train in BJJ or something and if you grasped the concepts of WC and understand them it shouldnt be to difficult to modify those few sport/control/not WC aspects to your WC game.
> 
> So as a conlusion I would say that even tho WC principals are great, a human lifespan is to sort for you to figure out every aspect of fighting by yourself. So other arts can help. A lot in my opinion. As other have said: in the very worst you know what to suspect from you attacker from that style. Now if your style allready has the best answers to everything then great! Don't train anything else. But I think if you truly belive that your misguided becouse nothing a man creates is ideal or absolute so we can allways lear new things.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 9, 2009)

I think that in that essey of mine you missed my point that basicly was: training other arts can help you understand your art better.

I could write an essey to respond to your question and an essey on your statement but I feel that jarrods post from another thread ilustrates it much better:



> styles are somewhat artifical boundries set on a collection of techniques. fighting is fighting, & effective principles are universal. all styles have the same basic principles; primarily it is just the terminology & emphasis that changes.
> 
> a martial artist should be encouraged to develop their own personal style to some extent. once they do that, any art can be theirs with proper training. i'll use myself as an example:
> 
> ...


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 10, 2009)

Hey WC community, I would love to hear from you about how Systema look s to you and if you see any similarties or you feel it's a totaly difrent approach. Check Si-Jes any my videos for consult.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 10, 2009)

You know... I read through all this again and I mean no offense to anyone but what exactly is the point of this? What do you hope to achieve?

Sorry but I also just dont get the asking the WC community what they think as to if it is similar or totally different... that is unless you have a Systema person that trained Wing Chun or a Wing Chun person that trained Systema.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 10, 2009)

Well I have a question?

Does Systema follow the Center Line theory?(Attack and Defend Center line)

Does it make us of Tan Sau,Fook Sau and Bong Sau?

Does Systema also utilize Linear line of Attacks?


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 11, 2009)

> You know... I read through all this again and I mean no offense to anyone but what exactly is the point of this? What do you hope to achieve?
> 
> Sorry but I also just dont get the asking the WC community what they think as to if it is similar or totally different... that is unless you have a Systema person that trained Wing Chun or a Wing Chun person that trained Systema.


 
No offense taken! Well a point...no real point just a thread like any other. Yea I hoped there be more people with Systema and WC experience on such a big forum but... Or people just don't have time to answer my silly questions and they think it's a stupid thread. I would still love to hear from that Brian guy? Got the imprression he could answer a lot of my questions! About that question being pointless... Maybe so, but I think that from sll of those videos a WC guy with enough experience can figure out if theres any similarties or not. Just depends on their definitions and opennes (is that a word ) of WC principals.

But please everybody, ask any questions about Systema or WC here. I just posted some that I would like answers too(stupid questions or not).


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## dungeonworks (Jan 11, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> You know... I read through all this again and I mean no offense to anyone but what exactly is the point of this? What do you hope to achieve?
> 
> Sorry but I also just dont get the asking the WC community what they think as to if it is similar or totally different... that is unless you have a Systema person that trained Wing Chun or a Wing Chun person that trained Systema.



I think Eru just wants to see if there are any similarities between the two arts after watching a set of Systema DVD's.  Asking WC/WT people is a good start I would think.  From what I seen on YouTube (take with grain of salt), it almost looks like "Wing Krav Chun Maga"....but since Systema is nearly as old as Wing Chun and 8 times older than Krav Maga that is said with sarcasm.

Anyways, the Systema sensitivity to knife attacks and the fact they have sensitivity drills in their curriculum would be enough to make me wonder and compare since sensitivity training is not that common from my understanding in most all other arts.  They have it without speciffically training it, but Wing Chun and Systema actually have drills and curriculum for it.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 11, 2009)

Was Systema created by Chinese?

Does Systema have Forms and historical History?

Are there any western knife fighting arts that are better than systema?




dungeonworks said:


> I think Eru just wants to see if there are any similarities between the two arts after watching a set of Systema DVD's. Asking WC/WT people is a good start I would think. From what I seen on YouTube (take with grain of salt), it almost looks like "Wing Krav Chun Maga"....but since Systema is nearly as old as Wing Chun and 8 times older than Krav Maga that is said with sarcasm.
> 
> Anyways, the Systema sensitivity to knife attacks and the fact they have sensitivity drills in their curriculum would be enough to make me wonder and compare since sensitivity training is not that common from my understanding in most all other arts. They have it without speciffically training it, but Wing Chun and Systema actually have drills and curriculum for it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 12, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1102114 said:
			
		

> No offense taken! Well a point...no real point just a thread like any other. Yea I hoped there be more people with Systema and WC experience on such a big forum but... Or people just don't have time to answer my silly questions and they think it's a stupid thread. I would still love to hear from that Brian guy? Got the imprression he could answer a lot of my questions! About that question being pointless... Maybe so, but I think that from sll of those videos a WC guy with enough experience can figure out if theres any similarties or not. Just depends on their definitions and opennes (is that a word ) of WC principals.
> 
> But please everybody, ask any questions about Systema or WC here. I just posted some that I would like answers too(stupid questions or not).


 
There are a few Systema people on MT but I do not believe they do not do Wing Chun so it is likely have little interest in the thread but only time will tell.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 12, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Was Systema created by Chinese?
> 
> Does Systema have Forms and historical History?
> 
> Are there any western knife fighting arts that are better than systema?






No, and nobody claimed it did.  Just noted their may be some similarity...which is not saying it is exactly the same.
I don't think so, but not sure.  I doubt it.  Forms are not the be all/end all of fighting or training, and some styles think they are useless.  *(Obviusly they are HUGELY important to Wing Chun so don't take that as my opinion)*
I don't know.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 12, 2009)

> Was Systema created by Chinese?
> 
> Does Systema have Forms and historical History?
> 
> Are there any western knife fighting arts that are better than systema?


 
Refer to the title of the thread for clarifications, grasshoper  Ok for real... No it wasn't created by chinese but as dungeonworks mentioned Systema is a Russian equivilant of Kung fu so I would guess that similarly as in China you have quite a palette of you might call Systema. But for the sake of discussion I refer to the martial arts of Rybakov and Kadochnikov as Systema(and these ones are the only ones I hoped to discus here).

For the second question I can't say anything for sure. But it looks like to me that this is that kind of martial art that doesn't have forms or some pre-set techniques. Thats way I noted the JKDish WC analogy in my first post. As allways I could be wrong.

About the last question... I think that an objective answer on that is pretty much imposible!  I mean what is the best? But to me this looks one of the best. Besides, what do you mean in the West? I would love to be corrected but I haven't heard of any knife martial art originating in the West. You got JKD thats argubly American and as thought by Inosanto incorporates Philipinian martial art for knife defence. Mostly if you want good knife defence it seems you need to look at the East: Pekita tirsia kali, arnis, escrima, systema, krav maga etc.

Hope someone with acctual Systema experience comes and answers your questions better!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 12, 2009)

Systema

Wing Chun

Read and compare :asian:


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 12, 2009)

Ha! Thanks! Didn't know theres a Fedor Emelianenko guy that is also clasified as Systema. That should also clarify a some of Yoshis questions. And posibly the questions other WCunners have who don't know Systema.

But I would stil love to hear from somebody who trained Systema. I have lots of questions  Any volenteer who I can harass via PM?


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 20, 2009)

I actually asked some of those questions after I looked at some videos of Systema. Also I previously looked at Systema on wikipedia...I dont see the comparison. For me I am looking at structure. Its like totally different. I see Krav Maga closer to Systema than WC. But thats my opinion...I am woundering why there is a comparison?


To me its comparing apples and oranges they are both fruits but just different colors.



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1102830 said:
			
		

> Ha! Thanks! Didn't know theres a Fedor Emelianenko guy that is also clasified as Systema. That should also clarify a some of Yoshis questions. And posibly the questions other WCunners have who don't know Systema.
> 
> But I would stil love to hear from somebody who trained Systema. I have lots of questions  Any volenteer who I can harass via PM?


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 20, 2009)

I was comparing the more on a conceptual level. Core principals instead of techniques alone. It's something I personaly see. I haven't trained and from videos and wikipedia I can't realy compare them. It's something I would have to see/feel/train. Xue was right; a person(I hoped for some when I posted this thread) trained in both would be helpful for such input. Without people experienced in both it's realy hard to discus compare exchange techniques so I guess this thread is kind of a failiure.

About them being apples and oranges.. Have you wathed both videos I posted from begining to end? Some techniques Kadochikov does are exactly the same I seem them thought in most WC schools. He does tansaos, redirection of stronger force, uses his structure etc. Humor me and tell me if you see any similarities between Systema and WC in the first video I posted (



) with 2min 55sec into the video. Check out what he does...


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## Si-Je (Jan 20, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I actually asked some of those questions after I looked at some videos of Systema. Also I previously looked at Systema on wikipedia...I dont see the comparison. For me I am looking at structure. Its like totally different. I see Krav Maga closer to Systema than WC. But thats my opinion...I am woundering why there is a comparison?
> 
> 
> To me its comparing apples and oranges they are both fruits but just different colors.


 
I see the principles of relaxation and severe sensitivity training a big similarity.  As well as the concepts of utilizing natural body movements.


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## Si-Je (Jan 20, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> You know... I read through all this again and I mean no offense to anyone but what exactly is the point of this? What do you hope to achieve?
> 
> Sorry but I also just dont get the asking the WC community what they think as to if it is similar or totally different... that is unless you have a Systema person that trained Wing Chun or a Wing Chun person that trained Systema.


 
I was thinking since everyone likes to crosstrain so much, of looking to styles that would complement my WC training instead of conflicting. Folks like to compare and contrast BJJ and WC/WT, why not Systema?

Asking the WC community because simply we're WC and would like to know what other WCunners think about it, if they know, if anyone here has trainined in Systema.
I thought about going to the Systema section and asking this, but I didn't want to offend in my ignorance of the art just because I see similarities in principle and concept. Not all, just a couple similarities.

I personally, may be hoping to achieve whether or not I wish to pursue training in Systema to work with my WC/WT. 
I've trained a small bit of Zapota from another friend and teacher last year, but not enought to complement or put into my fighting style. I would prefer Zapota because I know more about it, but I'm absolutely facinated with Systema's sensitivity, simplicity, and relaxed and natural movements. And think it would mesh better with my WC/WT than that of Zapota.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 20, 2009)

Mostly all MA's deal with relaxation once you reach black belt grading...Also sensitivity is apart most striking arts once you go past blackbelt level...BJJ also deals with relaxation and severe sensitivity...As well as many other grappling arts...Also Tai Chi is about Sensitivity and Relaxation and redirecting force!!!!


So in reality just about all arts can be compared in this aspect?


eh?

I could be wrong but i doubt any systema guys study WC? I could be wrong?

I personally believe judo and Karate would be more beneficial to WC.

http://www.body-knowledge.com/basic-systema/



> Humor me and tell me if you see any similarities between Systema and WC in the first video I posted (
> 
> 
> 
> ) with 2min 55sec into the video. Check out what he does...


 
Watching the video reminds me of combination of Karate,Aikido, Tai Chi Push Hands and slow movements and Combative Arts.

My personal opinion is that systema lacks a root or stable stable stance. There strikes sloppy and unbalanced. The throws and takedowns are nice but can they be applied like that under pressure.

The kicks look lousy...


*Check this video out*




 


Si-Je said:


> I see the principles of relaxation and severe sensitivity training a big similarity. As well as the concepts of utilizing natural body movements.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 21, 2009)

> *Check this video out
> *


 
ea, he shows that of a lot. It may look fake or something but when you wath many of his videos and at diffrent speeds you see he is quite good. Shame there isn't the one with his sensitivety against knife attacks demo on youtube. Thats a good one!



> Watching the video reminds me of combination of Karate,Aikido, Tai Chi Push Hands and slow movements and Combative Arts.
> 
> My personal opinion is that systema lacks a root or stable stable stance. There strikes sloppy and unbalanced. The throws and takedowns are nice but can they be applied like that under pressure.
> 
> The kicks look lousy...


 
Ok.. I can accepts that. But I was positive that any WChunner would see simlutanious attack and defense, tan for redirection and biu tan to the eye as an attac in the techique at 2min 55sec. And as I remember there are quite a few techiques like that demonstrated. I'm not saying it's exactly WC but damn try just for a sec and focus on the similarities and things that would work very welll instead of the diffrences and whats so lousy. Cuz sure, I guess if you look at any video for long enough you can see faults in it. The attacker could attack better, the techniques could be done better etc. And if you watch *any *video of *any *master on youtube and look at the comments below you'll see thats true. You can never satisfy everybody. It's funny though how everybody claims that what they train is the best and everything else is second grade... We can't all be right can we? so whats the truth?


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## Si-Je (Jan 21, 2009)

It seems to me that they focus more on deflection rather than hard "blocking", re-direction of the opponent's force, and pretty simoltaneous defense and attack.
Looks like they focus on relaxation right in the outset of training too, and sensitivity.
I like how the guy uses the "oar" in a familiar (to me) dragonpole style of techniques. His stance is smaller as is the "oar" but I think that's in proportion to the size of the oar/weapon. It's not a 9 foot pole so no need for such a wide stance.
Plus it seems that they focus alot on multiple attackers. Love it!
They do much more weapons fighting, and weapon disarms than WC/WT, but it seems that's because it's the art of their military. I really looks like they have fully incorporated a "martial art" to most of the aspects of their military fighting styles. 
Whether they are using machine guns, tactics, hand to hand, multiple attackers, disarming an enemy and general philosophy for diffusing an aggessive situation with the concepts of relaxation, flow, deflection, re-direction and simoltaneous defense/"blocking" and attacking. 
They even kick as they punch or strike too. It seems that they focus alot on breaking the structure of the opponent too. Reminds me of the Chi stuff Sifu Fung's students do when breaking the foundation and structure of the opponent. It also seems to be a very close quarters fighting style too. 
One guy in that video actually did a neck/head takedown much like I've seen and done in WC/WT.
I saw another guy do a Pak sau and tan sau then a latch to bring the guy down, off a straight punch like we do in WC/WT, turn the opponent to their side and palm strike the kidney.
Plus, they don't seem to focus on physical strength or use it very much at all. The instructors seem to be "floppy" relaxed and "limp" in their body positon and stance. Very relaxed.
That's just what I saw in the video: 




 
Thanks for the principles link too, Yoshi.  Wish I could find someone here in the DFW area that taught this stuff.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 21, 2009)

To be honest I have mad respect for many different arts...like Karate, Hung Gar, Xing Yi Quan, Kickboxing Muay Thai to name a few. But some arts I think are not as authentic looking as Karate or Tiger and Crane. 


But Si-je actually likes the systema...I am not interested in it. I rather learn Jeet Kune Do or Hapkido over it. But its my opinion. If i were going that way I would rather learn the defensive arts from the American Army. Since they are the army kicking the worlds ****. I rather learn the combatives of special forces and green bereas. But thats my opinion...It may be a great art. I personally have never seen anyone actually fight with it...

Do you have an youtube fights where someone uses it in competitions or and actual street fight?

Points you made:


> simlutanious attack and defense, tan for redirection and biu tan to the eye as an attac in the techique


 
Well the delivery and structure to me looked unstabled. I would more than likely just shoot for his legs and stomp on his scrotums when the guy was on the ground. As for defend and attack most styles have this even karate. As for redirection and eye strikes. Most styles when teaching street fighting techniques teach this as well...Even Tae Kwon Do has Strike for eyes with biu.




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1108359 said:
			
		

> ea, he shows that of a lot. It may look fake or something but when you wath many of his videos and at diffrent speeds you see he is quite good. Shame there isn't the one with his sensitivety against knife attacks demo on youtube. Thats a good one!
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.. I can accepts that. But I was positive that any WChunner would see simlutanious attack and defense, tan for redirection and biu tan to the eye as an attac in the techique at 2min 55sec. And as I remember there are quite a few techiques like that demonstrated. I'm not saying it's exactly WC but damn try just for a sec and focus on the similarities and things that would work very welll instead of the diffrences and whats so lousy. Cuz sure, I guess if you look at any video for long enough you can see faults in it. The attacker could attack better, the techniques could be done better etc. And if you watch *any *video of *any *master on youtube and look at the comments below you'll see thats true. You can never satisfy everybody. It's funny though how everybody claims that what they train is the best and everything else is second grade... We can't all be right can we? so whats the truth?


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## Si-Je (Jan 23, 2009)

Not Army hon,. they be doing BJJ.  
You'd like the USMC MCMAP training better.  Has anti-grappling in it thanks to Sifu Hubbie training with Sifu Emin, Kempo, Judo, MT, JJJ, etc... 
Marine Recon has cooler stuff, they just fight more and need it.  
Systema, it seems would be great on the other thread about integrating a MA withing a Military system.  It seems it is their entire military system, philosophy of combat.  Used with weapons, guns, hand to hand, etc. Either it's what their military has devised into a MA or a Russian MA that has been fully integreated into a militarys operations.  Or both.  
It's just cool beans.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 23, 2009)

I wonder if Xing Yi would be a great art to use in the army?


After all Xing Yi uses the spear. Maybe they can modify the spear techniques for the rifle.





Si-Je said:


> Not Army hon,. they be doing BJJ.
> You'd like the USMC MCMAP training better. Has anti-grappling in it thanks to Sifu Hubbie training with Sifu Emin, Kempo, Judo, MT, JJJ, etc...
> Marine Recon has cooler stuff, they just fight more and need it.
> Systema, it seems would be great on the other thread about integrating a MA withing a Military system. It seems it is their entire military system, philosophy of combat. Used with weapons, guns, hand to hand, etc. Either it's what their military has devised into a MA or a Russian MA that has been fully integreated into a militarys operations. Or both.
> It's just cool beans.


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