# How many and differances in Shaolin Kempo



## James Kovacich

I heard of several Shaolin Kempo's. Ralph Castro, Fred Vilarri, Steve Demasco and Christopher Geary's and probably some more. Are they related or maybe just spinoffs of other systems? I tried the search function but it lead me to every thread that had Shaolin Kempo in it. Thanx.


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## Karazenpo

akja said:
			
		

> I heard of several Shaolin Kempo's. Ralph Castro, Fred Vilarri, Steve Demasco and Christopher Geary's and probably some more. Are they related or maybe just spinoffs of other systems? I tried the search function but it lead me to every thread that had Shaolin Kempo in it. Thanx.



 Hello akja, Ralph Castro came from William Chow and Ed Parker, making his shodan under Ed Parker. He spells his Shaolin KeNpo with an 'n'. Fred Villari came from Nick Cerio from George Pesare from Sonny Gascon to John Leoning and Adriano Emperado (Kajukenbo). Steve Demasco came from Fred Villari and Christopher Geary originally came from Charles Mattera who came from Fred Villari. That's it in a nutshell. So, Ralph Castro's Shaolin KeNpo, spelled with an "n" is a seperate animal. Shaolin KeMpo, spelled with an "m" are all subsystems of Sonny Gascon's Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a distinct but direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. Hope this clears things up.


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## James Kovacich

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hello akja, Ralph Castro came from William Chow and Ed Parker, making his shodan under Ed Parker. He spells his Shaolin KeNpo with an 'n'. Fred Villari came from Nick Cerio from George Pesare from Sonny Gascon to John Leoning and Adriano Emperado (Kajukenbo). Steve Demasco came from Fred Villari and Christopher Geary originally came from Charles Mattera who came from Fred Villari. That's it in a nutshell. So, Ralph Castro's Shaolin KeNpo, spelled with an "n" is a seperate animal. Shaolin KeMpo, spelled with an "m" are all subsystems of Sonny Gascon's Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a distinct but direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. Hope this clears things up.


So most of them are related then. I could of sworn that Castro used an M too. Did he always use an N?

Thanx. James


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## Thunderbolt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Christopher Geary originally came from Charles Mattera who came from Fred Villari.


Christopher Geary??? you mean the SHIHAN guy who is discussed in another forum.?? http://www.kempokarate.com/shihan/index3.cfm

when i went to his web site, i can assure you that he is from Nick Cerios's kenpo organization because of the patch which he put on his right shoulder. All you have to do is to look at his own portray in 2001

don't you even regconize your own *brother* from another planet in the same organization.???? just kidding


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## Karazenpo

Hey guys, as you can tell from my time on MT I 'try' not to pass judgement on others unless I'm pushed into a corner but if I am, I will respond accordingly. To each their own, as long as people mind their own business and don't hurt anyone in the propagation of the arts. Wasn't it Christ that said; "He who has not sinned shall throw the first stone."  Believing in that, I have discovered many hypocrits in life and I'm sure you guys have discovered the same. Yes, Ralph Castro always used the 'n', Shaolin Kenpo and Shihan Christopher Geary teaches Mattera's Shaolin Kempo with, I'm sure, some additions and modifications. He met Professor Cerio at a seminar and/or tournament, I can't recall, put on by the USSD. As stated so many times before and its really getting old by now, but Cerio was contacted by someone and after the conversation he immediately cut all ties with the USSD. I conversed with Lou Angel at one time and he totally stands by his promotion of Geary. However, it is not my place to comment on this so please just contact Lou Angel and trust me, he will respond to you forthwith. He is not a guy to play games with. As far as Sonny Gascon goes, he never takes a cent from anyone and pays his own expenses from what I've seen and understood, including his trip this month to Cerio's legacy memorial! How many SGM's with his reputation that you know would  do that? Again, I don't speak for Sijo Gascon, so as I stated with Lou Angel, take it up with 'Sonny' personally. Thunderbolt, this is not directed to you, I'm just making a blanket statement to everyone. You've always been a fair man, open and honest and I respect that. You're a good guy in my book. I received a 7th from Sijo Gascon and I didn't pay a red cent for it. I also received a 7th at Gm. S. George Pesare's Kaito Gakko, didn't pay a cent for that either. How many out there can say the same?  How many??? Plus I'm proudly to say that neither of these men (or Nick Cerio) have a video series out for mail order promotions to black belt!


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## Colin_Linz

Im just curious guys. Why do you use the n instead of m. I dont mean start anything, and what ever reason it is used is fine. It is just something I dont understand. I have heard a couple of reasons, one was it was a printing mistake in a book that someone wrote and it just sort of stuck, and the other is to create your own identity. These answers were never put to this direct question, just by products of other discussions, so I though I would ask directly.


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## Karazenpo

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Im just curious guys. Why do you use the n instead of m. I dont mean start anything, and what ever reason it is used is fine. It is just something I dont understand. I have heard a couple of reasons, one was it was a printing mistake in a book that someone wrote and it just sort of stuck, and the other is to create your own identity. These answers were never put to this direct question, just by products of other discussions, so I though I would ask directly.



Actually Colin, you're right in your assessment. From what I understand Mitose originally used kempo but it was a publishing error in his book "What is Self Defense Kenpo Jiu Jitsu that led to the "n' and from there you hear all kind of stories, identity issues and so forth. Whether  spelled m or n it is phonetically pronounced m. Sigung John Bishop told me his mother is Japanese and in Japan anything spelled with an n is considered a sword art, an m is considered law of the fist. I do have something from one of our members, Tony, from Japan that sums it up nicely. He is very well versed on these issues. Let me check my documents and I will post it.


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## Karazenpo

There you go Colin:

 The poster is Kimpatsu, he's of Shorinji Kempo and lives in Japan:


There's no real semantic difference; the glottal stop "n" can also be pronounced as the plosive "m" in the middle of Japanese words. What then happens is that certain words adopt the "m" as convention; "shimbun" ("newspaper") is one such example.
Shorinji Kempo uses the "m" by convention, so we all use it for conformity. Other forms of kenpo choose to use the "n".
But there's no real mystery about it.  Tony Kehoe-MartialTalk Forum
HTH.


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## Colin_Linz

I know Tony well, but have not met him. Hopefully Ill catch up to him in Japan later this year. You can trust whatever he says about Japanese language and grammar, he is a highly skilled translator.

Yes I knew the difference, but had just wondered why you guys kept the n. As I said, Id heard of a couple of reasons, but I hadnt seen it addressed specifically. Thanks for the reply.


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## The Kai

Probably the seperate idenity issue.  kenpo was used for years when the discrepency was discovered it was the norm?  BTW how do you type an entire book with out the letter "m"?

todd


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## The Kai

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hey guys, as you can tell from my time on MT I 'try' not to pass judgement on others unless I'm pushed into a corner but if I am, I will respond accordingly. To each their own, as long as people mind their own business and don't hurt anyone in the propagation of the arts. Wasn't it Christ that said; "He who has not sinned shall throw the first stone." Believing in that, I have discovered many hypocrits in life and I'm sure you guys have discovered the same. Yes, Ralph Castro always used the 'n', Shaolin Kenpo and Shihan Christopher Geary teaches Mattera's Shaolin Kempo with, I'm sure, some additions and modifications. He met Professor Cerio at a seminar and/or tournament, I can't recall, put on by the USSD. As stated so many times before and its really getting old by now, but Cerio was contacted by someone and after the conversation he immediately cut all ties with the USSD. I conversed with Lou Angel at one time and he totally stands by his promotion of Geary. However, it is not my place to comment on this so please just contact Lou Angel and trust me, he will respond to you forthwith. He is not a guy to play games with. As far as Sonny Gascon goes, he never takes a cent from anyone and pays his own expenses from what I've seen and understood, including his trip this month to Cerio's legacy memorial! How many SGM's with his reputation that you know would do that? Again, I don't speak for Sijo Gascon, so as I stated with Lou Angel, take it up with 'Sonny' personally. Thunderbolt, this is not directed to you, I'm just making a blanket statement to everyone. You've always been a fair man, open and honest and I respect that. You're a good guy in my book. I received a 7th from Sijo Gascon and I didn't pay a red cent for it. I also received a 7th at Gm. S. George Pesare's Kaito Gakko, didn't pay a cent for that either. How many out there can say the same? How many??? Plus I'm proudly to say that neither of these men (or Nick Cerio) have a video series out for mail order promotions to black belt!


Prof Joe
I know that you are very protective and proud of your lineage.
But there are a few questions,A ussd guy comes back gets rank recognition from GM Cerio (probably not a lot of personal contact, due to the travel between neb and RI, also no pics and this guy does'nt mind his pic taken)

10 YEARS later 5th degree black belt in Goju Ryu?  Where did this come from?  secret Goju Ryu training?  There is a not alot of commonalities betwwen the two arts so a cross ranking would be a strech. Heres a clue 
The NCMA gives you the rank advancement opportunities you need without the usual strings.
_From The NCMA website_
2 Years after that a 6th degree from Sij gascone in karazempo!
That's a lot of cross training going on, in addition to the interior decorating, the sewing on of the royal headrest etc...

I realize you need to market yourself, and this guy might be all that (actually not from looking at the technique page IMHO)

The one odd thing is Sijo Gascone, from all I've heard a Hard, proud ,man.  But maybe he got taken in by a line....Unfortanatly he rides the Late Mr Cerio's and Sijo Gascones name, good intentions sometimes are a motherf....

Todd


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## DavidCC

Althoguth John James likes to deny it, this doc following proves that Cerio did indeed promote Chris Geary to black belt.  Not a NCMIAA acknowledgent of rank, but a promotion to rank (see the last paragrpah of the story at the top of the page):










> Where did this come from? secret Goju Ryu training? There is a not alot of commonalities betwwen the two arts so a cross ranking would be a strech.


You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  I mean, unless you have been monitoring Lou Angel's activity over the last 10 years and have a valid list of who he has been training? LOL :toilclaw: let me explain ho wwrong you are...

Geary has developed his own style based on his initial training at USSD, his (albeit limited) training with Nick Cerio, and his extensive training with Lou Angel.  CNG's Kempo integrates a lot of Goju with the SK system. At the ranks from 1st-5th Dan, the requirements for advancement in CNG Shaolin Kempo ARE the katas of Tenshi Goju Kai.  So as a person learns those katas Hanshi Angel acknowleges that with the opportunity to test for rank in his style.  So the requirments for BB ranks in CNG's overlap the reqs for Tenshi Goju and so cross ranking is not so far-fetched as it might seem.

Similar story with Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu.  The KGS BBS board looked at the style and thought it was similar enough in practice and principle that they would be comfortable evaluating the black belts in CNG's Kempo concurrently in KGS for rank, and they found Geary deserved a 6th dan.

I think we did pay the airfare for Sijo Gascon to come from Hawaii to Omaha, but I'm not entirely sure.

It is interesting that you ("The Kai") would easier smear Sijo Gason's reputation that admit the possibility the Geary might have earned these ranks.


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## James Kovacich

Thats "pretty typical" to only quote the part you don't like.

The whole quote goes like this
*"Thank you for your interest in the National College of Martial Arts (NCMA), a world wide organization of martial arts schools. We're here to help you! 

The NCMA gives you the rank advancement opportunities you need without the usual strings.

Regardless of the style or method you prefer, NCMA welcomes you as a member and provides a path of advancement for instructors and individuals. 

The goal of the NCMA is to see that all members receive the recognition they deserve without the politics which often plague the Martial Arts world today.

Hanshi Lou Angel, a 10th Dan and Hanshi of the Tenshi Goju Kai started the N.C.M.A. in 1989 to provide a non-political environment for the advancement of the art of Karate. 

To learn more about how the NCMA can benefit your organization, use the menu below to browse the programs offered by the NCMA."*

Before this becomes an NCMA slam. I want to say the NCMA is 100% non-political and is a home for those that are no longer affilitated to a parent organization. 

Hanshi welcomes and guides many martial artist from all styles including Kenpo, for the better of martial arts.

If anyone has seen his video program, they would know that rank in Goju is not attainable without the abilities to back it up. And it would be naive to think Lou Angel has no ties to many of "Americas Martial Art Seniors."

There is much I don't like about the arts. Some of it has to do with some in here. But I'm not going to "talk the talk" I don't need to. Long ago Greg Lagera taught me and all of his students how to bang and thats all the matters. 

*People like me look up to Lou Angel for guidance in our journeys. People like Lou Angel have "forgotten" more martial knowledge than most of us will ever attain.*

Like I was saying, if anyone knows anything about his video program. THEY WOULD KNOW that one of the first things he says is "with his experience he can tell is someone is performing at a black belt level. And on his video one only gets the techniques performed in basic fashion. It's impossible to gain high rank in Tenshi Goju without solid training. The tape is a guide. Watch his tournament and you will see low ranking black belts performing Kata in "True Goju Spirit."

He will recognize your current verifiable rank. Additional advancement comes theough the form of a test. I may be slightly wrong but I beleive Sijo Gascon and Professor Abregana have the same policy.

*Pro. Joe I am sorry for your bad experience with Hanshi but when you have 50 years in the martial arts you'll be entitled to "your own ways too." * :asian:


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## The Kai

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Althoguth John James likes to deny it, this doc following proves that Cerio did indeed promote Chris Geary to black belt. Not a NCMIAA acknowledgent of rank, but a promotion to rank (see the last paragrpah of the story at the top of the page):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I mean, unless you have been monitoring Lou Angel's activity over the last 10 years and have a valid list of who he has been training? LOL :toilclaw: let me explain ho wwrong you are...
> 
> I did leave open the possibilty that it is all that
> 
> Geary has developed his own style based on his initial training at USSD, his (albeit limited) training with Nick Cerio, and his extensive training with Lou Angel. CNG's Kempo integrates a lot of Goju with the SK system. At the ranks from 1st-5th Dan, the requirements for advancement in CNG Shaolin Kempo ARE the katas of Tenshi Goju Kai. So as a person learns those katas Hanshi Angel acknowleges that with the opportunity to test for rank in his style. So the requirments for BB ranks in CNG's overlap the reqs for Tenshi Goju and so cross ranking is not so far-fetched as it might seem.
> 
> So he was bringing hanshi angel in from Mo, how often?   So your katas overlap?/  Or do the Gojo Kata start after 1 black belt.  Then the Karazempo katas come in where,  How often was Sijo in Nebraska?  While many people will recognize a rank in black belt 1st thru 5th should take 15 years!
> 
> 
> 
> Similar story with Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. The KGS BBS board looked at the style and thought it was similar enough in practice and principle that they would be comfortable evaluating the black belts in CNG's Kempo concurrently in KGS for rank, and they found Geary deserved a 6th dan.
> 
> So the system that emplys Goju forms(for 1st thru 5th black) was close enough to Karazempo? to jump up a few degrees?
> 
> I think we did pay the airfare for Sijo Gascon to come from Hawaii to Omaha, but I'm not entirely sure.
> 
> It is interesting that you ("The Kai") would easier smear Sijo Gason's reputation that admit the possibility the Geary might have earned these ranks.


My name is Todd The kai is just a"handle"
I am not trying to smear Sijo, as Sijo has proven himself.  But take it as you want to>>I am sorry if I hurt your feelings

Todd


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## The Kai

There is more text up in the quotation box, just so noone thinks I've gotten tactfull

Todd


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## The Kai

AKJA

I'm sorry that I did'nt quote the whole thing, I thought that the whole was pretty much of a piece.  Yes you should be able to tell if someone is preforming at a Black Belt level, but to jump up to 5th in a short time//


Todd


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## James Kovacich

The Kai said:
			
		

> AKJA
> 
> I'm sorry that I did'nt quote the whole thing, I thought that the whole was pretty much of a piece.  Yes you should be able to tell if someone is preforming at a Black Belt level, but to jump up to 5th in a short time//
> 
> 
> Todd


I don't know all the goings on in Kempo but I do know that several of "our seniors" are reaching out to us. Hanshi Angel is one of them and he is a genuinely great guy. He co-signed my 5th dan. People do "the talk" but what they don't see is that the ones these people help are worthy. Just not by everyones standards but by the standards that due matter.

Something that a lot of people don't know is that Hanshi even though he is a traditionalist, is big on helping the evolution of new systems. His former student and best friend is the founder of Bushido Kempo, a Jun Fan art. Bushido Kempo is the first generation of my line. 

Most don't see a connection with Hanshi and me. But to us it's obvious. He knows my line and I am under him now. If and when I get promoted it will be by Hanshi and even thats even knowing that my Kaju instructor asked me to align myself with him. 

If anyone spoke up about your Sensei or Sifu, you'll step up, no doubt.

Also I was one who jumped to 5th in "my own system," I think you are on a similar path. But I have a many years behind be and my fellow students are higher up. And I have a good solid system. I was trained by a Gung Fu fighter who can hardly be touched and I hope that I'm a reflection of him.


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## John Bishop

I guess it's all a matter of standards.  Several years ago I had a gentleman approach me to write a magazine article about him.  He gave me a stack (47) certificates of rank, several being for ranks from 8th degree to 10th degree.

The most notable were a: 10th degre from Peter Urban's USA Goju
                                    10th Degree from Lou Angel, NCMA 
                                      9th Degree from Ed Parker, IKKA

I personally contacted all three of these men to verify the ranks.  
Mr. Parker said the person was a "member" of the IKKA, but was never promoted by him to any rank.  
He simple used the IKKA certificate #26352, that had Mr. Parker's name pre-printed on it as "President", and made it out for a 9th degree, and had someone else sign as "instructor".  
The certificate already had the names of the "President", Ed Parker, "Executive Vice President" Richard Planas,  "Vice President" Larry Tatum, and "Secretary and Tresurer" Leilani Parker pre-printed on it

Mr. Urban just flat out called the man a "fraud and lier".

Mr. Angel said that the four certificates that he had issued to the individual were legitimate.
These were: 
1. "National College of Martial Arts" California State Director 
2.    "            "            "        " Certificate of rank- 10th dan Goju-USA
3.    "            "            "        " Instructor- 10th dan Goju Jinsei-do
4.    "            "            "        " Certificate of Membership#5001, 10th dan  

Call me skeptical, but the man was only 32 years old by the time he accumulated the 47 black belt certificates.  And his other claims of military and police experience were also fraudulent.


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## James Kovacich

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I guess it's all a matter of standards.  Several years ago I had a gentleman approach me to write a magazine article about him.  He gave me a stack (47) certificates of rank, several being for ranks from 8th degree to 10th degree.
> 
> The most notable were a: 10th degre from Peter Urban's USA Goju
> 10th Degree from Lou Angel, NCMA
> 9th Degree from Ed Parker, IKKA
> 
> I personally contacted all three of these men to verify the ranks.
> Mr. Parker said the person was a "member" of the IKKA, but was never promoted by him to any rank.
> He simple used the IKKA certificate #26352, that had Mr. Parker's name pre-printed on it as "President", and made it out for a 9th degree, and had someone else sign as "instructor".
> The certificate already had the names of the "President", Ed Parker, "Executive Vice President" Richard Planas,  "Vice President" Larry Tatum, and "Secretary and Tresurer" Leilani Parker pre-printed on it
> 
> Mr. Urban just flat out called the man a "fraud and lier".
> 
> Mr. Angel said that the four certificates that he had issued to the individual were legitimate.
> These were:
> 1. "National College of Martial Arts" California State Director
> 2.    "            "            "        " Certificate of rank- 10th dan Goju-USA
> 3.    "            "            "        " Instructor- 10th dan Goju Jinsei-do
> 4.    "            "            "        " Certificate of Membership#5001, 10th dan
> 
> Call me skeptical, but the man was only 32 years old by the time he accumulated the 47 black belt certificates.  And his other claims of military and police experience were also fraudulent.


I think I know him and he would be an 8th under Lou Angel in his "own Goju system," *Jissen-Kai Goju-Ryu*. He definately is not ranked 10th by The late Peter Urban or Hanshi Angel.
 The other ranks I know of a few but none for Kenpo and not 47. Is he in the miliary at moffet field? If we are are talking about the same individual, his most current rank, 8th, can be verified on the NCMA site within the newsletters which show all promotions. 

Also Hanshi does not issue Goju-USA certs. Thats not his org.


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## DavidCC

The goju kata start after 1st black.  There are other kata too at that level, - Statue of the Crane etc - that I think coem form the KGS line.  The KGS pinan and kata are learned from white to black. 

How much time did he spend with Hanshi Angel?  I don't know. Myself, I have trained wth Hanshi Angel 3 times in the last 2 years.  I know Shihan Geary has been to Joplin more times than that, and Angel may have been here more times than the 3 times I saw him.

The KGS promotion was a recognition that our style was part of their style family, and that our skills are their skills; and so ranking was appropriate.  Sijo Gascon came here personally as a gesture to say "I really mean it, this guy deserves this rank".


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## John Bishop

akja said:
			
		

> I think I know him and he would be an 8th under Lou Angel in his "own Goju system," *Jissen-Kai Goju-Ryu*. He definately is not ranked 10th by The late Peter Urban or Hanshi Angel.
> The other ranks I know of a few but none for Kenpo and not 47. Is he in the miliary at moffet field? If we are are talking about the same individual, his most current rank, 8th, can be verified on the NCMA site within the newsletters which show all promotions.
> 
> Also Hanshi does not issue Goju-USA certs. Thats not his org.


Probably not the same guy.  Last I heard of him, he was in Desert Hot Springs, Ca., and no longer involved in the martial arts.  He was originally from Woodbridge, New Jersey, moved to Palm Springs, Ca. in the early 80s.  
The original certificates he showed me were for 10th Degree.  I may still have the letter from Mr. Angel verifing the certificates "he issued" for 10th degree promotion and recognition.  
And I still have copies of the certificates issued on:12-29-89, 12-12-89, 12-20-89.  They are signed by "Lou Angel, Hanshi", and a "David Box Jr., Director, 8th dan".


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## James Kovacich

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Probably not the same guy.  Last I heard of him, he was in Desert Hot Springs, Ca., and no longer involved in the martial arts.  He was originally from Woodbridge, New Jersey, moved to Palm Springs, Ca. in the early 80s.
> The original certificates he showed me were for 10th Degree.  I may still have the letter from Mr. Angel verifing the certificates "he issued" for 10th degree promotion and recognition.
> And I still have copies of the certificates issued on:12-29-89, 12-12-89, 12-20-89.  They are signed by "Lou Angel, Hanshi", and a "David Box Jr., Director, 8th dan".


I would be guessing but he must of beleived the Urban cert. to be legit. He did have a connection to Ed Parker I don't think he could of been fooled by that and 1989 was the year he started the NCMA.

Thats all I have except Hanshi is honorable and does not make much money from tests and such.


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## Karazenpo

Hi Todd, I just read your post. Thank you for being respectful in your questions, I appreciate that. To be honest, I have seen and heard so much on ranking over the years, whether it be celebrities, family members, friends, favors, money, students, self, sex!!!!,lol, and every which way but loose and I'm talking about ALL systems, "ALL", American systems, Okinawan, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Filipino, etc., no one is exempt, there are controversies and questions and not just in the 60's, the 70's,  80's, 90's or the 21st century but all the way back to when rank began. It's always been this way so my answer is: I stay out of it all together now and don't pass judgement on any promotions unless maybe they begin to borderline on the complete absurd!,lol. My answer to people is simple: Ranking is subjective, no matter what criteria or curriculum a system or instructor has to try to be somewhat objective, the bottom line is, it's still opinion, you'll never take the human element out of it. It's like arguing politics and religion. How do you know if your rank is legit? Very simple answer. You have to ask yourself two questions and two questions only: Are you comfortable wearing your rank and are you comfortable in how you got it? That's it. Take care, respectfully Prof. Joe


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## Mariachi Joe

Prof. Shuras you seem to be held in high esteem here, I've read some of your other posts and have a question for you.  I have been with USSD for about a year now and am ranked a blue belt.  I like the Shaolin Kempo style I'm learning and I respect my instructor he pushes me during class and does not let me half *** no matter how tired I may be, but some of USSD's claims and practices bother me and when I ask him about it he just tends to get evasive and/or change the subject.  I was wondering what your opinion of Charles Mattera, Steve Demasco, Russel Cliegg ( he runs USSD in Utah and was a Villari black belt and left with Mattera and Demasco ) and USSD are?


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## dianhsuhe

Joe-  You really should get a cup of coffee and do a search for USSD... There is a LOT of info. about their org. on these boards.  I came from that system in the early 90's.  At that time I enjoyed it compared to the TKD I studied previously at the local YMCA, and I had an excellent teacher but the commercialism was a joke.  Looking back I am embarassed to even admit I studied there...

SO your instructor trains you hard?  Is that the greatest benefit you are enjoying?  It would not be difficult to find a teacher who both trains you hard, AND addresses your questions about their given system.

I know you were asking prof. Shuras but I felt compelled to chime in-

Keep us posted- Also, feel free to ask on here the questions that your instructor does not seem to want to answer.


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## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> ..... some of USSD's claims and practices bother me and when I ask him about it he just tends to get evasive and/or change the subject.



MJ, I had the same issues. Good questions with no good answers. From my personal experience, I think you may be happier taking what you like about shaolin kempo and exploring other schools and styles. Also, like previous stated, alot of those answers you are looking for can be found all over the internet.

Mike


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## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> Prof. Shuras you seem to be held in high esteem here, I've read some of your other posts and have a question for you.  I have been with USSD for about a year now and am ranked a blue belt.  I like the Shaolin Kempo style I'm learning and I respect my instructor he pushes me during class and does not let me half *** no matter how tired I may be, but some of USSD's claims and practices bother me and when I ask him about it he just tends to get evasive and/or change the subject.  I was wondering what your opinion of Charles Mattera, Steve Demasco, Russel Cliegg ( he runs USSD in Utah and was a Villari black belt and left with Mattera and Demasco ) and USSD are?



What question wont your instructor answer?   Is it about how they came from fred villari?


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## Mariachi Joe

It's not so much that my instructor wont answer, it's that he does not seem to know.  He know who Fred Villari is but he does not know why Mattera won't even mention him.  He also has no idea where Mattera got his 9th dan, or why we are discouraged from entering open tournaments.  As far as the money goes his answer is that unlike other studios they are flexible with schedules ( a necessity for me ) which is hard to find.


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## Mariachi Joe

I actually have been reading a lot of posts concerning USSD and Fred Villari.  As far as Villari goes I've gathered that he is the real deal as a martial artist, but his organization leaves a lot to be desired, and the same goes for USSD.  Steve Demasco seems to be a respected martial artist, but USSD seems questionable.  That's why I was wondering is I could get information on Russell Clieg, he runs ussd where in Utah.  As far as I can gather he was a Villari black belt who jumped ship with Mattera.  He is now a 5th dan and my instructor describes him as a very powerful fighter who is a lot faster than he looks.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> It's not so much that my instructor wont answer, it's that he does not seem to know.  He know who Fred Villari is but he does not know why Mattera won't even mention him.  He also has no idea where Mattera got his 9th dan, or why we are discouraged from entering open tournaments.  As far as the money goes his answer is that unlike other studios they are flexible with schedules ( a necessity for me ) which is hard to find.



What rank is your instructor?  I am asking because most quit with in a few years.  
Does your school have multiple group class times?

 As for his 9th I am sure mattera gave himself it.  

I think mattera wont mention him because if everyone of his instructors knew they could own their dojo 100% for $40,000 he'd have no instructors with him.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> I actually have been reading a lot of posts concerning USSD and Fred Villari.  As far as Villari goes I've gathered that he is the real deal as a martial artist, but his organization leaves a lot to be desired, and the same goes for USSD.  Steve Demasco seems to be a respected martial artist, but USSD seems questionable.  That's why I was wondering is I could get information on Russell Clieg, he runs ussd where in Utah.  As far as I can gather he was a Villari black belt who jumped ship with Mattera.  He is now a 5th dan and my instructor describes him as a very powerful fighter who is a lot faster than he looks.



Both organizations have bad rep's but I used to work for ussd so I think that one is the worst. Alot of greedy master's in my opinion.

I don't know a lot about Russell Clieg.  Met him a few times. Kept mostly to himself.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I did an animal test with Master Clieg, and after reading Prof. Shuras' description of Villari's old balck belt tests I can see where Master Clieg gets his teaching style.  After being pushed physically for several hours the test ended with me having to fight through 3 sensei's to put a blade of grass on the other end of the dojo.  It was a great experience though.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Quick question, is there a big difference between what Villari and USSD teach up to shodan, and is it very different than what is taught in Cerio Kenpo?


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> I did an animal test with Master Clieg, and after reading Prof. Shuras' description of Villari's old balck belt tests I can see where Master Clieg gets his teaching style.  After being pushed physically for several hours the test ended with me having to fight through 3 sensei's to put a blade of grass on the other end of the dojo.  It was a great experience though.



An animal test? Never heard of that one. Could you get a little more discriptive of what was happened?


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> Quick question, is there a big difference between what Villari and USSD teach up to shodan, and is it very different than what is taught in Cerio Kenpo?



You only 1-5 kata, 1-5 pinon with villari.

Ussd you need kata 6.


----------



## almost a ghost

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> You only 1-5 kata, 1-5 pinon with villari.
> 
> Ussd you need kata 6.



I remember USSD elimated Kata 6 along with circle of the tiger, or they just elimated circle of the tiger and everybody just stopped teaching kata 6 because everybody despised the form, especially me. Even had a hand full of higher ups tell me it was a thrown together form for tournaments and what not.

Then again, every month at least 5 of my techniques changed because Master So-and-so said that this way is better. No wait! This way is better... ah, now my head hurts.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

There are five animal test, one for each of the five animals of Shaolin Tiger, Crane, Snake, Dragon, and Leopard/Panther.  Each one tests you on the attributes of the animal.  The crane test is all about balance and agility, the tiger test is about tenacity and strength.  I've only done tiger and crane, I'm doing the snake test this coming Saturday.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> There are five animal test, one for each of the five animals of Shaolin Tiger, Crane, Snake, Dragon, and Leopard/Panther.  Each one tests you on the attributes of the animal.  The crane test is all about balance and agility, the tiger test is about tenacity and strength.  I've only done tiger and crane, I'm doing the snake test this coming Saturday.



What do you get when you past these tests? Do you have to learn specific animal techniques, sets or forms? Do these tests cost money?


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Like everything in USSD yeah they cost money.  After you pass each test you get a certificate saying you passed, and after you pass all five you get your name on a plaque.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

There is a Martial Arts Festival in Disneyland in February of 06 that I'm planning on going to.  On the form it asks what style of ma I practice and I'm not sure what to put down, Karate, American Kenpo, or Kajukenbo cause I'm pretty sure it's not traditional Chinese Kung Fu like my instructor thinks.  Any ideas


----------



## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> I remember USSD elimated Kata 6 along with circle of the tiger, or they just elimated circle of the tiger and everybody just stopped teaching kata 6 because everybody despised the form, especially me. Even had a hand full of higher ups tell me it was a thrown together form for tournaments and what not.
> 
> Then again, every month at least 5 of my techniques changed because Master So-and-so said that this way is better. No wait! This way is better... ah, now my head hurts.


 

Actually, Grand Master Pesare created the form.


----------



## almost a ghost

Hand Sword said:


> Actually, Grand Master Pesare created the form.



That may be the case, but I got a funny feeling they are two different forms.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> Like everything in USSD yeah they cost money.  After you pass each test you get a certificate saying you passed, and after you pass all five you get your name on a plaque.



What material do they test you on? How much are the tests?


----------



## Hand Sword

Probably! LOL! The ussd guys had to change alot to become thier own thing. However, from seniors in the know, apparently the changes are small, just as Villari's material was done from Nick Cerio.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

$60 per test.  At the test you mostly go through obstical courses that emphasize the characteristics of the animal.


----------



## Hand Sword

Sounds Creative, at least.


----------



## IRO-Bot

To cover most of what this thread goes over, I can give a little more indepth view.
I personally know Master Russell Clegg, being an instructor.  I train with him every week.  He's a great martial artist, a funny guy, and at the same time a very demanding, businiessminded ... employer.  I like him as a man, but I don't like his business strategy and policies.  I also am not fond of the way he conducts the instructor lessons.  As I put it in my introduction post, it's basically a "here, catch!" method.  He tosses certain techinques and the like at you, from four or five different angles, assuming that you already know it, *because* you're an instructor.  You must know it!  He trains all instructors as black belts, regarldess of raink, but that's how it goes through all of USSD from what I gather.

As for the animal tests, they are, in a way, another way for United Studios to make money.  But at the same time they are a great opportunity to get to know yourself and your own abilities and limits.
*The Tiger Test* - _$50_ - tests your endurance and tenacity.  It pushes your body to its physical limits, but at the same time is a very mental test.
*The Crane Test* - _$50_ - tests your balance and agility.
*The Snake Test* - _$50_ - is more a clinic where you learn more about chi and meditation as well as accurate, pinpoint strikes and fluid movements.
*The Leopard Test* - _$75_ - is the longest test of all of them (aside from the Dragon).  At the beginning of the test, at least at mine, here in Utah, Master Clegg tought us a leopard defensive technique (a kempo technique), and we practiced it on eachother.  To this day it's one of my favorite techniques.  Afterward we went to the Provo CLAS rope course, where we spent about five hours.  This test for me, was a very mental test, being that I'm terrified of heights.  And there were a lot of heights involved.
*The Dragon Test* - _$500_ (yes, that's right) - is a super-secret test that you can only take after you've taken all four of the other tests.  You're given a period of six weeks in which to complete the test.  The only thing I know about it is that part of the test involves becoming certified in CPR.

If you have any more questions about USSD, feel free to ask away.  I'll try to answer what I can, at least based on what I know from my own instructor and dojo and Master Clegg.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

To be honest I don't think there is a very big difference between what Villari teaches and what we learn at ussd.  I think the only difference is the organization, if I jump ship to Villari's I'm pretty sure they would recognize my ranking.


----------



## Hand Sword

Probably true. The differences would only be minimal, so, you wouldn't be out of the loop.


----------



## Hand Sword

IRO-Bot said:


> To cover most of what this thread goes over, I can give a little more indepth view.
> I personally know Master Russell Clegg, being an instructor. I train with him every week. He's a great martial artist, a funny guy, and at the same time a very demanding, businiessminded ... employer. I like him as a man, but I don't like his business strategy and policies. I also am not fond of the way he conducts the instructor lessons. As I put it in my introduction post, it's basically a "here, catch!" method. He tosses certain techinques and the like at you, from four or five different angles, assuming that you already know it, *because* you're an instructor. You must know it! He trains all instructors as black belts, regarldess of raink, but that's how it goes through all of USSD from what I gather.
> 
> As for the animal tests, they are, in a way, another way for United Studios to make money. But at the same time they are a great opportunity to get to know yourself and your own abilities and limits.
> *The Tiger Test* - _$50_ - tests your endurance and tenacity. It pushes your body to its physical limits, but at the same time is a very mental test.
> *The Crane Test* - _$50_ - tests your balance and agility.
> *The Snake Test* - _$50_ - is more a clinic where you learn more about chi and meditation as well as accurate, pinpoint strikes and fluid movements.
> *The Leopard Test* - _$75_ - is the longest test of all of them (aside from the Dragon). At the beginning of the test, at least at mine, here in Utah, Master Clegg tought us a leopard defensive technique (a kempo technique), and we practiced it on eachother. To this day it's one of my favorite techniques. Afterward we went to the Provo CLAS rope course, where we spent about five hours. This test for me, was a very mental test, being that I'm terrified of heights. And there were a lot of heights involved.
> *The Dragon Test* - _$500_ (yes, that's right) - is a super-secret test that you can only take after you've taken all four of the other tests. You're given a period of six weeks in which to complete the test. The only thing I know about it is that part of the test involves becoming certified in CPR.
> 
> If you have any more questions about USSD, feel free to ask away. I'll try to answer what I can, at least based on what I know from my own instructor and dojo and Master Clegg.


 
Hello IRO-Bot, welcome to MT. It would be great if you explained that favorite technique.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> $60 per test.  At the test you mostly go through obstical courses that emphasize the characteristics of the animal.



Oh, you've got to be kidding me! You pay $60 to run through an obstical course? Are you that gullable? Dude, right now I have a bridge in brooklyn on sale.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Well I think I'll skip the dragon test.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Thanks ghost.  What style are you learning.


----------



## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> Oh, you've got to be kidding me! You pay $60 to run through an obstical course? Are you that gullable? Dude, right now I have a bridge in brooklyn on sale.


 
Really?  How much?

Seriously though,

No need to go there. We get what you're trying to say, and true, it's about the money with them (and a lot of others).


----------



## IRO-Bot

Hand Sword said:


> Hello IRO-Bot, welcome to MT. It would be great if you explained that favorite technique.



I can try to explain it in terminology that I know and understand.  Being that this is the only style that I've ever studied I'm not sure how universal some of the terms are.

Starting from a horse stance, you step drag forward with your left foot, evading the punch from your opponent.  You block downward, striking their arm with double leopard's paws.  Then leopard's paw them in the throat with your close hand, followed by your other hand, then coming down with a circular motion to ridgehand them in the groin.  You half-moon behind them with your right foot, hook-kicking them in the solar-plexus with your left, then stepping back with your right, sweeping their leg at the ankle.   They go to the ground and you follow them down with a palm heel to their head as it bounces off the ground.
Much easier to show than it is to describe.  In fact, I think I confused myself in the process.  Sorry if you don't understand it.


----------



## almost a ghost

Hand Sword, for you, half price! Seriously, those schools still amaze me on what they come up with to get more money out of people.

Mariachi Joe, I have a shodan in Shaolin Kempo (guess which school!), but I've been training in Wing Chun for 5 years now and absolutely love it.


----------



## Hand Sword

IRO-Bot said:


> I can try to explain it in terminology that I know and understand. Being that this is the only style that I've ever studied I'm not sure how universal some of the terms are.
> 
> Starting from a horse stance, you step drag forward with your left foot, evading the punch from your opponent. You block downward, striking their arm with double leopard's paws. Then leopard's paw them in the throat with your close hand, followed by your other hand, then coming down with a circular motion to ridgehand them in the groin. You half-moon behind them with your right foot, hook-kicking them in the solar-plexus with your left, then stepping back with your right, sweeping their leg at the ankle. They go to the ground and you follow them down with a palm heel to their head as it bounces off the ground.
> Much easier to show than it is to describe. In fact, I think I confused myself in the process. Sorry if you don't understand it.


 

So, right punch comes in, and you hit with the left leopard paw then right? To where?


----------



## IRO-Bot

Hand Sword said:


> So, right punch comes in, and you hit with the left leopard paw then right? To where?



Downward double-leopard-paw block to the arm as the punch comes in. Left leopard paw to the throat, right leopard paw to the throat, right ridge hand to the groin, step behind, left hook kick to the solar plexus, sweep, right palm to the face.


----------



## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> Hand Sword, for you, half price! Seriously, those schools still amaze me on what they come up with to get more money out of people.
> 
> Mariachi Joe, I have a shodan in Shaolin Kempo (guess which school!), but I've been training in Wing Chun for 5 years now and absolutely love it.


 

As well As me Too. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, it does, and more creatively so! If you did achieve that rank, I'm sure as a practioner, money thing aside, you picked up some good tech's. How do like the wing chun? Do you blend it with the kempo, or study seperately?


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Out here in Utah we don't have too many options.  There's some clown named Aranda that runs a few TKD studios, but those are a joke.  There is a Muy Thai instute that I hear is good and a Brazilian Jujitsu dojo.


----------



## Hand Sword

IRO-Bot said:


> Downward double-leopard-paw block to the arm as the punch comes in. Left leopard paw to the throat, right leopard paw to the throat, right ridge hand to the groin, step behind, left hook kick to the solar plexus, sweep, right palm to the face.


 
Mmmmmm....Sounds good.


----------



## Hand Sword

Mariachi Joe said:


> Out here in Utah we don't have too many options. There's some clown named Aranda that runs a few TKD studios, but those are a joke. There is a Muy Thai instute that I hear is good and a Brazilian Jujitsu dojo.


 

Those are very good systems, don't like those?


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Almost forgot there is a place in Salt Lake that teaches American Kenpo that is run by a guy named Ryan Whedon.  Anyone hear of him?


----------



## Hand Sword

The American Kenpo would be good too. Probably a lot cheaper for you, and some very practical self defense.


----------



## IRO-Bot

Mariachi Joe said:


> Out here in Utah we don't have too many options.  There's some clown named Aranda that runs a few TKD studios, but those are a joke.  There is a Muy Thai instute that I hear is good and a Brazilian Jujitsu dojo.



Yeah, that puts me in something of a predicament as well, with my faith in United Studios declining by the day.  There is, I think, one other Shaolin Ch'Uan Fa school in the Bountiful area, as well as several TKD (Kim's Academy and otherwise) schools.  They seem to be the popular ones.  There's another school in a town just north of where I live that is another form of Kempo, not sure what, though.  I'd really like to find a good quality school in my area.
I think I want something that has solid lineage and holds strong to tradition.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Traffic out here is worse than Vegas, or San Diego and does places are far from where I live.  USSD is only 5 minutes away from where I live.  I also work odd hours and it helps that my instructor works around my schedule, I don't know if the other places would.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I haven't been looking too much right now because I signed a two year contract with ussd so I have another year to go.  I figure when I get close to my contract being up I'll look around and if I find a better deal I'll try and barter with my instuctor.


----------



## Hand Sword

Mariachi Joe said:


> Traffic out here is worse than Vegas, or San Diego and does places are far from where I live. USSD is only 5 minutes away from where I live. I also work odd hours and it helps that my instructor works around my schedule, I don't know if the other places would.


 

 I hear ya! As I always say, some training is better than none, so if you love to train, do what you must, until you can do something else.


----------



## IRO-Bot

Mariachi Joe said:


> I haven't been looking too much right now because I signed a two year contract with ussd so I have another year to go.  I figure when I get close to my contract being up I'll look around and if I find a better deal I'll try and barter with my instuctor.



You know it's not actually a contract, right?  If you take them a written notice of cancellation, you can get out of it at any time.  They just need a 30-day advance written notice to send to ABC to cancel your billing.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

You know it's not actually a contract, right? If you take them a written notice of cancellation, you can get out of it at any time. They just need a 30-day advance written notice to send to ABC to cancel your billing.Today 10:31 PM

I know, but I'd like to honor the verbal agreement between my instructor and myself.


----------



## IRO-Bot

Mariachi Joe said:


> You know it's not actually a contract, right? If you take them a written notice of cancellation, you can get out of it at any time. They just need a 30-day advance written notice to send to ABC to cancel your billing.Today 10:31 PM
> 
> I know, but I'd like to honor the verbal agreement between my instructor and myself.



I can respect that.  I was just making sure you were aware.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I've always loved the martial arts but have never been able to do it before now because of money.  Now I have a decent job and can afford to do what I've always wanted to do, and I think Kempo is a great art, even if I leave ussd when my two years are up I'll look for someplace I can keep learning Kempo/Kenpo.


----------



## Hand Sword

Mariachi Joe said:


> You know it's not actually a contract, right? If you take them a written notice of cancellation, you can get out of it at any time. They just need a 30-day advance written notice to send to ABC to cancel your billing.Today 10:31 PM
> 
> I know, but I'd like to honor the verbal agreement between my instructor and myself.


 

:asian:

That's out of respect to an honorable person! Too bad that is lacking in this world now, especially in the MA world, where Honor and Respect are supposedly taught.


----------



## almost a ghost

Hand Sword said:


> As well As me Too. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, it does, and more creatively so! If you did achieve that rank, I'm sure as a practioner, money thing aside, you picked up some good tech's. How do like the wing chun? Do you blend it with the kempo, or study seperately?



The problem that I had is that all the stuff I learn (and eventually taught), I probably couldn't effectively apply it outside the studio. There was too much information being pounded in my head without any application training to back it up.

The Wing Chun? I love the style, it's right up my alley. To go from 30+ forms to 3 forms... I couldn't be happier. I'm a totally "Less is More" and "Keep it Simple" fanatic, and that's the basis of Wing Chun.

Do I blend? Actually, I'm still trying to forget any of the Kempo I learned. After my first class my Wing Chun instructor blew all the Kempo training I had out of the water. Could I blend if I wanted to? Realisticly, no. While both Kempo and Wing Chun are hands heavy styles, there are way too many concepts that would clash.

Am I saying Wing Chun is better than Kempo... from my point of view, yes. As to why, I think it's a two part answer:

The first being that I feel that Shaolin Kempo has waaaay too much material to the point where it just becomes repetitve, but it's presented as something different which causes confusion. All of this I'm willing to admit could be localized to just the chain of schools I was it, but unfortunately there are no other Shaolin Kempo schools where I'm at to contrast.

Second being that the school I was in was trying to cater to everybody and everything and I believe it took away from the harder training needed to make technique's applicable leaving people lost as to when and where to use a techique.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe, where in Utah are you?


----------



## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> The problem that I had is that all the stuff I learn (and eventually taught), I probably couldn't effectively apply it outside the studio. There was too much information being pounded in my head without any application training to back it up.
> 
> The Wing Chun? I love the style, it's right up my alley. To go from 30+ forms to 3 forms... I couldn't be happier. I'm a totally "Less is More" and "Keep it Simple" fanatic, and that's the basis of Wing Chun.
> 
> Do I blend? Actually, I'm still trying to forget any of the Kempo I learned. After my first class my Wing Chun instructor blew all the Kempo training I had out of the water. Could I blend if I wanted to? Realisticly, no. While both Kempo and Wing Chun are hands heavy styles, there are way too many concepts that would clash.
> 
> Am I saying Wing Chun is better than Kempo... from my point of view, yes. As to why, I think it's a two part answer:
> 
> The first being that I feel that Shaolin Kempo has waaaay too much material to the point where it just becomes repetitve, but it's presented as something different which causes confusion. All of this I'm willing to admit could be localized to just the chain of schools I was it, but unfortunately there are no other Shaolin Kempo schools where I'm at to contrast.
> 
> Second being that the school I was in was trying to cater to everybody and everything and I believe it took away from the harder training needed to make technique's applicable leaving people lost as to when and where to use a techique.


 

Yep! the watered down, monet making people, all things to all people (except the realists), just showing stuff, with no applications---I HEAR YA, Loud and clear! 
I'm happy you found an instructor that you're happy with. But, that's the key, the instructors. All styles are equal, none being better than the other. Believe me, There are SKK people that can "Represent", and are reputable. Some post here on MT. In this case the player is skk, the game is the people that are representing it, so, as it's said, don't hate the player, Hate the Game!


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Hand Sword-     That's out of respect to an honorable person! Too bad that is lacking in this world now, especially in the MA world, where Honor and Respect are supposedly taught.

I respect my instructor, a few months ago I was going through some rough waters and the guy never heckled me for money but instead took the time to listen and be a friend.  Even if I leave ussd later on I'll won't forget his kindness.  That's why I'm honoring our verbal agreement.  Problem is my instructor charges me less than he does the other students and he told me the higher ups accepted it but that once the two years are up I have to pay what the other students pay which is upwards of $200/month.  No way I can afford that so that's why I'll probably leave when my two years are up.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Ghost I live in Davis County Utah.  I came here to attend Clearfield Job Corps and ended up staying.


----------



## IRO-Bot

Mariachi Joe said:


> Ghost I live in Davis County Utah.  I came here to attend Clearfield Job Corps and ended up staying.



I once considered doing Job Corps, but have no idea really what it entails.  How was it for you?


----------



## Hand Sword

Mariachi Joe said:


> Hand Sword- That's out of respect to an honorable person! Too bad that is lacking in this world now, especially in the MA world, where Honor and Respect are supposedly taught.
> 
> I respect my instructor, a few months ago I was going through some rough waters and the guy never heckled me for money but instead took the time to listen and be a friend. Even if I leave ussd later on I'll won't forget his kindness. That's why I'm honoring our verbal agreement. Problem is my instructor charges me less than he does the other students and he told me the higher ups accepted it but that once the two years are up I have to pay what the other students pay which is upwards of $200/month. No way I can afford that so that's why I'll probably leave when my two years are up.


 

That's very decent of him. But, the bow still applys to you anyway. You could have left anytime you wanted. But, you showed that you're honorable.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

It was great, I had room/board while I got my GED, HS Diploma, a technical trade, and they paid for my first year of college.  Family did have much money, so without Job Corps I don't know how I would have gone to college.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Thanks Hand Sword, I appreciate that.  Now that your not doing SKK, what style are you learning?


----------



## Hand Sword

None. I haven't chambered a punch or flamingoed a kick in almost 6 years. Fighting, thats a whole nother story LOL.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

There is a Martial Arts Festival in Disneyland in February of 06 that I'm planning on going to. On the form it asks what style of ma I practice and I'm not sure what to put down, Karate, American Kenpo, or Kajukenbo cause I'm pretty sure it's not traditional Chinese Kung Fu like my instructor thinks. Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks.


----------



## Hand Sword

You mean Feb. of 07? 06 passed already LOL!  Whatever style you practice will be fine to put down.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> There is a Martial Arts Festival in Disneyland in February of 06 that I'm planning on going to. On the form it asks what style of ma I practice and I'm not sure what to put down, Karate, American Kenpo, or Kajukenbo cause I'm pretty sure it's not traditional Chinese Kung Fu like my instructor thinks. Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks.



I'd put down Kempo Karate. Neutral, but correct.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

My options are:
American Kenpo
Classical Karate
Traditional Kung Fu
Judo
Tae Kwon Do
Savate Filipino MA
Kajukenbo
Open Karate
Brazilian Jujitsu
Jujitsu
I've narrowed it down to American Kenpo, Kajukenbo, or open karate.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Right sorry Feb-07, thanks Handsword.


----------



## Hand Sword

Open Karate will do since there is no choice for Kempo. The Kempo we're talking about is a derivitve of Kajukenbo, but is now a seperate style. American Kenpo is Ed Parker's way.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I figured it wouldn't be American Kenpo, thanks Handsword I'll send in the forms for open karate.  The festival should be great besides the competion Ed Parker Jr is doing a clinic and there is a fastest punch competion open to all participants.


----------



## Hand Sword

That's a treat! To see Ed Parker Jr. doing a clinic? Film if you can.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I'm taking a camera, hopefully they let me film it, if not I'll still enjoy the clinic and share the experience here.


----------



## Hand Sword

Mariachi Joe said:


> I'm taking a camera, hopefully they let me film it, if not I'll still enjoy the clinic and share the experience here.


 
Cool, but, when he's talking, focus on taking notes (bring a paper and pen) and remembering! It will be very detailed stuff!


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I will, thanks for the advice Handsword.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Well gentlemen it's fun and educational, have a goodnight.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe, are you planning on doing the rest of the animal tests? Sorry to go back to that, but for some reason that whole subject has been on my mind all weekend.


----------



## DavidCC

Hand Sword said:


> That's a treat! To see Ed Parker Jr. doing a clinic? Film if you can.


 
Will it be a clinic on painting and illustration?


----------



## DavidCC

Mariachi Joe said:


> My options are:
> American Kenpo
> Classical Karate
> Traditional Kung Fu
> Judo
> Tae Kwon Do
> Savate Filipino MA
> Kajukenbo
> Open Karate
> Brazilian Jujitsu
> Jujitsu
> I've narrowed it down to American Kenpo, Kajukenbo, or open karate.


 
if these are different divisions of the tournament they may have different rules for the sparring matches.  You might want to look at those rules to decide which most closely matches the type of sparring you have trained for.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

DavidCC said:


> if these are different divisions of the tournament they may have different rules for the sparring matches.  You might want to look at those rules to decide which most closely matches the type of sparring you have trained for.




I think it's a clinic?


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> Hand Sword-     That's out of respect to an honorable person! Too bad that is lacking in this world now, especially in the MA world, where Honor and Respect are supposedly taught.
> 
> I respect my instructor, a few months ago I was going through some rough waters and the guy never heckled me for money but instead took the time to listen and be a friend.  Even if I leave ussd later on I'll won't forget his kindness.  That's why I'm honoring our verbal agreement.  Problem is my instructor charges me less than he does the other students and he told me the higher ups accepted it but that once the two years are up I have to pay what the other students pay which is upwards of $200/month.  No way I can afford that so that's why I'll probably leave when my two years are up.





Hey joe,
  I found a villari-ussd breakoff in utah    www.shaolinarts.com
I bet their a lot cheaper than ussd.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Ghost-I am doing the snake test this Saturday, and I'll probably do the Leopard/Panther test next year, but after hearing about the $500 price tag for the dragon test, no way I'm doing that one.

David-It's a martial arts festival at the disneyland hotel, there will be a tournament and also clinics and workshops, including one by Ed Parker Jr which I imagine will be on EPAK


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Thanks Ninja, I had no idea that place existed, seems I have a lot more options than I thought.


----------



## almost a ghost

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Hey joe,
> I found a villari-ussd breakoff in utah    www.shaolinarts.com
> I bet their a lot cheaper than ussd.



Ha! Read the history! Rearranging and removal of people and facts to make their schools even more "shaolin", I'd stay away.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Wow- they really need some corrections, although I did not see a way to email them..

They say Professor Chow dies in his 50's (he died at the age of 73- 1914-1987) and incorrectly list the names of Professor's art.


----------



## almost a ghost

Dianhsuhe, their hole history is a con, do you notice they call everything they can "Ch'uan Fa" so they can "trace" it back to the shaolin temple. I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but it looks like they just reprinting USSD's old history line. USSD has revised thier's to inlcude Empardo and Gascon, but still leave out Villari.


----------



## Hand Sword

It's true. I guess having times, and pictures, with real monks is proof that they are connected 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Also, How did Cynthia Rothrock end up with them?

They're getting worse and worse.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Pretty interesting... The kempo branches indeed have many sides to each argument when it comes to lineage or dates etc. but certain items are not really debatable like when Professor died, or what he called his art at different times.  The "Chuan Fa" part is interesting although not having a real accurate definition between that and kempo I would not want to argue that.

When I was at USSD the lineage was Mattera, Cerio, Professor Chow.  They have updated or changed it?

To my knowledge Professor Chow never referred to his art as Chuan Fa although USSD called it that even before they started visiting and sponsoring the Shaolin temple and all that.

Some times I think I should train more and be on these forums less 

James


----------



## Hand Sword

Nah, we need you here too, to help the newbies not get fooled by this stuff. Keep training though!


----------



## dianhsuhe

Okay-  I went to the USSD site and flipped through the history.  They do indeed add a couple of links to the lineage.

I am not really concerned about the Shaolin Abbott promoting them or them using the Shaolin name, as much as I am concerned about the flimsy link to Professor Chow.  Cerio may have been a great martial artist in his own right but he only trained for a few weeks with Professor Chow.  So the oil on canvas painting showing Professor Chow standing behind Cerio who is next to Mattera just seems wrong to me...

It should be a picture showing Sijo Gascon, GM Pesare, and GM Cerio and at the bottom say "Commissioned by Charles Mattera".

Just my .02


----------



## Hand Sword

Absolutely right. They have NO link to Professor Chow! NONE! Villari was their teacher (Demasco nad Mattera) up 'til 7th degrees, I believe? before the break off, and them linking, briefly to GM Cerio, before, he cut them off. Completely shoddy!


----------



## almost a ghost

I saw that painting of Chow, Cerio and Mattera in person. Funny thing was I was afraid to ask who the guy above cerio was suppose to be because around that time, 1997, I found Gascon's webpage and asking my instructor a plethora of questions and he had no idea who Gascon was, even going as far as saying he was lying about creating the forms. LOL


----------



## Hand Sword

Horrible! Gascon to Pesare to Cerio to Villari to Demasco and Mattera.


----------



## almost a ghost

dianhsuhe said:


> Okay-  I went to the USSD site and flipped through the history.  They do indeed add a couple of links to the lineage.
> 
> I am not really concerned about the Shaolin Abbott promoting them or them using the Shaolin name, as much as I am concerned about the flimsy link to Professor Chow.  Cerio may have been a great martial artist in his own right but he only trained for a few weeks with Professor Chow.  So the oil on canvas painting showing Professor Chow standing behind Cerio who is next to Mattera just seems wrong to me...
> 
> It should be a picture showing Sijo Gascon, GM Pesare, and GM Cerio and at the bottom say "Commissioned by Charles Mattera".
> 
> Just my .02



Or go for the full line of Mitose > Chow > Emparado > Gascon > Presare > Cerio > Villari > Mattera

That's alot of people to draw


----------



## Hand Sword

Stick figures maybe?

Seriously, if they are doing something like that, out of real respect, then all involoved should be represented, somehow.


----------



## almost a ghost

If I remember correctly, it was actually done by a student at the time when USSD had the major gaps in the lineage and who were using the Ch'uan Fa word game. So to the guy who drew it, it made perfect sense.


----------



## Hand Sword

O.K. You can't punish out of ignorance. It's forgiven. Now, time for a new one!


----------



## dianhsuhe

Yeah it is not a big deal but when the lineage is changed or modified, it is like altering history... Makes me weary-

Interesting thread however---


----------



## Mariachi Joe

*Hope this answers your question about Rothrock and ussd.*


*KFC:* What prompted you to open your new teaching facility in


----------



## Mariachi Joe

*KFC:* What prompted you to open your new teaching facility in


----------



## Mariachi Joe

for some reason it wont let me copy and paste the interview, if you want to see it yourselfs go to
www.kungfucinema.com/articles/2004-04-18-01.htm


----------



## dianhsuhe

Wow that is interesting...She must have NOT really done any research on the org.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Wow that is interesting...She must have NOT really done any research on the org.

I guess, though if you go to ussd's website they have a video in which Cynthia Rothrock promotes ussd.


----------



## Hand Sword

:erg:

A real Kung Fu stylist and former Champion of it, promoting....well...something less than? Must be a signifcant monetary value linked. Maybe tha't why they charge so much for everything? They have to afford a star like her.

Seriously, it just doesn't fit.

Have to edit here, just read the interview, all I say is WOW!


----------



## dianhsuhe

Joe-  Her promoting a system that she is linked to via her reputation and her money makes sense, her actual ties to the org. and reasons for choosing them do NOT make sense (to me).

Maybe she will make some money on her investment or partnership or whatever but I would bet that is ALL it is.  I always liked her but McDojo+ "B" movie Action Starlette=$$


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> Wow that is interesting...She must have NOT really done any research on the org.
> 
> I guess, though if you go to ussd's website they have a video in which Cynthia Rothrock promotes ussd.


 
I have to agree with you about not doing any research about ussd.   I meen where's the kungfu in it?


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I don't know why Cynthia Rothrock is promoting ussd, I just know she is and if you go to her official website there is a picture of her with Steve Demasco, and another one of her wearing a ussd uniform.  To be honest though I'm sure $ has something to do with it.


----------



## IRO-Bot

Mariachi Joe said:


> I don't know why Cynthia Rothrock is promoting ussd, I just know she is and if you go to her official website there is a picture of her with Steve Demasco, and another one of her wearing a ussd uniform.  To be honest though I'm sure $ has something to do with it.



Money and recognition for her, money and recognition for USSD.
It's a win-win situation for them.
To be completely honest, I didn't know who Cynthia Rothrock was before I joined United Studios.
In having read the interview, it's obvious she doesn't know anything about United Studios.  Nothing.  Her rank is probably completely honorary... Given only because of who she is.  How she has her own school is well beyond me.

I can only imagine what would happen if someone like Jackie Chan or Jet Li joined USSD!


----------



## Josh Oakley

almost a ghost said:


> Dianhsuhe, their hole history is a con, do you notice they call everything they can "Ch'uan Fa" so they can "trace" it back to the shaolin temple. I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but it looks like they just reprinting USSD's old history line. USSD has revised thier's to inlcude Empardo and Gascon, but still leave out Villari.



Actually, pretty much. about 90% of the history looks like it's straight out of the USSD manual, with some information removed and other inforation added in.


----------



## Josh Oakley

IRO-Bot said:


> Money and recognition for her, money and recognition for USSD.
> It's a win-win situation for them.
> To be completely honest, I didn't know who Cynthia Rothrock was before I joined United Studios.
> In having read the interview, it's obvious she doesn't know anything about United Studios. Nothing. Her rank is probably completely honorary... Given only because of who she is. How she has her own school is well beyond me.
> 
> I can only imagine what would happen if someone like Jackie Chan or Jet Li joined USSD!



Likely, their motives would also be questioned.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I don't know if anyone else here is aware of this, but yesterday I learned that former Welterweight champion Sugar Ray Leonard is learning martial arts at ussd.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> I don't know if anyone else here is aware of this, but yesterday I learned that former Welterweight champion Sugar Ray Leonard is learning martial arts at ussd.



That news is about 10 years old now (damn, I'm getting old!). There was an article about it in one of the martial arts magazines. Can't remember if it was Inside Kung Fu or Black Belt Magazine, but I'm pretty sure it was one of those.


----------



## almost a ghost

Josh Oakley said:


> Actually, pretty much. about 90% of the history looks like it's straight out of the USSD manual, with some information removed and other inforation added in.



How recent is your manual? The one I have was printed 14 years ago, and the history information from shaolinarts.com is pretty much a carbon copy. Just replaced Mattera with their studios head instructor.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Maybe old news to everyone else but it's news to me.  I had no idea Sugar Ray Leonard was involved with ussd.


----------



## IRO-Bot

almost a ghost said:


> How recent is your manual? The one I have was printed 14 years ago, and the history information from shaolinarts.com is pretty much a carbon copy. Just replaced Mattera with their studios head instructor.


 
I was looking over the stuff on that website, laughing to myself as I read all of the stuff.  It is practically United Studios under a different name.  There are some _slight_ differences, but not much.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.  Now they just need a monument at the Shaolin Temple.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Now they just need a monument at the Shaolin Temple.


 
Dont you mean buy one like ussd did?


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I'snt there another monument at the Shaolin Temple for some other organization?  I thought there was but I could be mistaken.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> I'snt there another monument at the Shaolin Temple for some other organization? I thought there was but I could be mistaken.


 
Theres alot of them.  USSD is nothing special.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

You seem really against ussd.  I don't agree with some of the stuff they do either, but I'm not antagonistic towards them either, and I like the style they teach.


----------



## dianhsuhe

You like the style Joe?  Have you studied any other styles so you can compare?


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

dianhsuhe said:


> You like the style Joe? Have you studied any other styles so you can compare?


 Good point! Once you have trained at a few different dojos and found one who's instructors KNOWS REAL FIGHTING you can compare better.

Also you didnt teach for them so you didnt see the behind the scenes stuff. And these great masters that you look up to haven't burned you!!!


----------



## Hand Sword

In all fairness, If you like something, you know it immediately. If you don't like something, you know it, faster than that. In addition to the fighting side, And let me stress that I'm definitely not a fan of theirs, Mr Demasco, and Mr. Mattera, crappy business practices aside, could "represent" if in a fight.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

No I've never been an instructor for ussd, and aside from three semester's of a self defence class I had not been taught the fighting arts formally.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

That being said though I am very interested in Kara-Ho and American Kenpo, and Kajukenbo, though I don't know very much about those styles.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> That being said though I am very interested in Kara-Ho and American Kenpo, and Kajukenbo, though I don't know very much about those styles.



I don't know how long you've been studying for, but when you are ready to move on sit down and make a list of the specific style you've been studying and include the following.

What you like
What you don't like
What you would like to learn more of
What you really don't care to learn


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Thanks for the advice, and if I do leave ussd at the end of my contract I am taking all those things into consideration.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Mariachi Joe-  If you want to learn about those styles just use the SEARCH function.  There is a ton of info. on each of the styles you mentioned...Right here on MT

I started into another "rant" about USSD but I am not going to do it-  

Good luck


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Thanks and I have learned a lot about Kara-Ho and William Chow here.  I just figure that you don't really know a style until you've trained in it for awhile.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Soo true Joe!  I know that in Kara-Ho it is fairly common to have instructors transfer into our system, get up to 1st degree BB then quite because it takes so long between ranks.  If you read the posts on here from Grandmaster Kuoha you will notice he references the 6-10's (techniques) when someone asks what Professor Chow was teaching and working on toward the end, up until his death in 1987.

These techniques are taught to 2nd degree going for 3rd and they are far more complex than the material up to Shodan.  Not very many people get past the probation for Shodan and to Nidan where these are first introduced, thus of the few folks that have trained in Kara-Ho, or seen it up close, even fewer have been taught these techniques.

Mind-blowing stuff to me 

Cheers!


----------



## Hand Sword

Could you elaborate a little?


----------



## dianhsuhe

Handsword-  What would you like to know?


----------



## Hand Sword

A little, detailed explanation of the techniques you were referring to, if possible.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Well they are designed against multiple attackers and use quick vital point strikes to the opponent.  The main difference between these techniques and the material up to BB is the _way_ you move.  Your head is never in the same place for more than a moment, and you move vertically as well.

These can be done in a large area or in a broom closet-
They are also not contingent on the type of attack from the uke/ attacker, in other words the 6-10's are used in a free fighting or "randori" style.  The first move is designed against a specific attack but that is primarily for memory and to get comfortable when first learning them-

Again hard to explain, but amazing material!

James


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

dianhsuhe said:


> Well they are designed against multiple attackers and use quick vital point strikes to the opponent. The main difference between these techniques and the material up to BB is the _way_ you move. Your head is never in the same place for more than a moment, and you move vertically as well.
> 
> These can be done in a large area or in a broom closet-
> They are also not contingent on the type of attack from the uke/ attacker, in other words the 6-10's are used in a free fighting or "randori" style. The first move is designed against a specific attack but that is primarily for memory and to get comfortable when first learning them-
> 
> Again hard to explain, but amazing material!
> 
> James


 
Sounds more practical than ussd stuff.


----------



## Gufbal1982

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Good point! Once you have trained at a few different dojos and found one who's instructors KNOWS REAL FIGHTING you can compare better.
> 
> Also you didnt teach for them so you didnt see the behind the scenes stuff. And these great masters that you look up to haven't burned you!!!


 

True true.  Once you study other styles, you will come to find out how mixed up ussd really is.  Granted that their brand of KEMPO is not band, there is more to the art.  However, business practices that they do are realllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyy shady.  I got screwed so hard by the organization, and no, I didn't have a smile on my face afterwards, that I had to leave.  Let's just say that I left on really bad terms, had a surgery thanks to the "Professional instruction" they give at a class in HQ.  I have since moved on from USSD after training for years in the Shaolin kempo system to find out there is soooooo much more out there.  Try to learn as much as you can even if it means burning that USSD bridge.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Gufbal1982 said:


> True true. Once you study other styles, you will come to find out how mixed up ussd really is. Granted that their brand of KEMPO is not band, there is more to the art. However, business practices that they do are realllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyy shady. I got screwed so hard by the organization, and no, I didn't have a smile on my face afterwards, that I had to leave. Let's just say that I left on really bad terms, had a surgery thanks to the "Professional instruction" they give at a class in HQ. I have since moved on from USSD after training for years in the Shaolin kempo system to find out there is soooooo much more out there. Try to learn as much as you can even if it means burning that USSD bridge.


 

I hear ya, I left them wacky clowns a while ago.Theres some much out there that ussd does not teach.
I am sorry what happened to you at ussd.  I saw a lot of injuries at ussd.


----------



## Gufbal1982

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> I hear ya, I left them wacky clowns a while ago.Theres some much out there that ussd does not teach.
> I am sorry what happened to you at ussd. I saw a lot of injuries at ussd.


 

Thanks.  I've seen them too and it's sad that an injury was the icing on the cake to end my career with ussd...that and i was so underappreciated there.  they didn't like me at all and i was a good moneymaker...oh well.  such is life.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Gufbal1982 said:


> Thanks. I've seen them too and it's sad that an injury was the icing on the cake to end my career with ussd...that and i was so underappreciated there. they didn't like me at all and i was a good moneymaker...oh well. such is life.


 
I hear you.  If could just own the dojo100% and they change their attitude things would better.


----------



## Danjo

Gufbal1982 said:


> Thanks. I've seen them too and it's sad that an injury was the icing on the cake to end my career with ussd...that and i was so underappreciated there. they didn't like me at all and i was a good moneymaker...oh well. such is life.


 
Yep. They would put her in a studio and the enrollment would quadruple in 6 months. Plus, she was a good instructor which was extremely rare in the USSD. They treated her like crap, she went form Placentia to Seal Beach and several of us followed her there.That didn't make her too popular either since she was accused of stealing us from the first studio. But the truth was we all went of our own accord. She didn't want to tone down the way she taught and the USSD HQ didn't like that. When she quit, so did a lot of us.

Now I am extremely happy in Kajukenbo.


----------



## Tenguru

IRO-Bot said:


> As for the animal tests, they are, in a way, another way for United Studios to make money.  But at the same time they are a great opportunity to get to know yourself and your own abilities and limits.
> *The Tiger Test* - _$50_ - tests your endurance and tenacity.  It pushes your body to its physical limits, but at the same time is a very mental test.
> *The Crane Test* - _$50_ - tests your balance and agility.
> *The Snake Test* - _$50_ - is more a clinic where you learn more about chi and meditation as well as accurate, pinpoint strikes and fluid movements.
> *The Leopard Test* - _$75_ - is the longest test of all of them (aside from the Dragon).  At the beginning of the test, at least at mine, here in Utah, Master Clegg tought us a leopard defensive technique (a kempo technique), and we practiced it on eachother.  To this day it's one of my favorite techniques.  Afterward we went to the Provo CLAS rope course, where we spent about five hours.  This test for me, was a very mental test, being that I'm terrified of heights.  And there were a lot of heights involved.
> *The Dragon Test* - _$500_ (yes, that's right) - is a super-secret test that you can only take after you've taken all four of the other tests.  You're given a period of six weeks in which to complete the test.  The only thing I know about it is that part of the test involves becoming certified in CPR.



I can't believe I just read that.


----------



## Danjo

IRO-Bot said:


> To cover most of what this thread goes over, I can give a little more indepth view.
> I personally know Master Russell Clegg, being an instructor. I train with him every week. He's a great martial artist, a funny guy, and at the same time a very demanding, businiessminded ... employer. I like him as a man, but I don't like his business strategy and policies. I also am not fond of the way he conducts the instructor lessons. As I put it in my introduction post, it's basically a "here, catch!" method. He tosses certain techinques and the like at you, from four or five different angles, assuming that you already know it, *because* you're an instructor. You must know it! He trains all instructors as black belts, regarldess of raink, but that's how it goes through all of USSD from what I gather.
> 
> As for the animal tests, they are, in a way, another way for United Studios to make money. But at the same time they are a great opportunity to get to know yourself and your own abilities and limits.
> *The Tiger Test* - _$50_ - tests your endurance and tenacity. It pushes your body to its physical limits, but at the same time is a very mental test.
> *The Crane Test* - _$50_ - tests your balance and agility.
> *The Snake Test* - _$50_ - is more a clinic where you learn more about chi and meditation as well as accurate, pinpoint strikes and fluid movements.
> *The Leopard Test* - _$75_ - is the longest test of all of them (aside from the Dragon). At the beginning of the test, at least at mine, here in Utah, Master Clegg tought us a leopard defensive technique (a kempo technique), and we practiced it on eachother. To this day it's one of my favorite techniques. Afterward we went to the Provo CLAS rope course, where we spent about five hours. This test for me, was a very mental test, being that I'm terrified of heights. And there were a lot of heights involved.
> *The Dragon Test* - _$500_ (yes, that's right) - is a super-secret test that you can only take after you've taken all four of the other tests. You're given a period of six weeks in which to complete the test. The only thing I know about it is that part of the test involves becoming certified in CPR.
> 
> If you have any more questions about USSD, feel free to ask away. I'll try to answer what I can, at least based on what I know from my own instructor and dojo and Master Clegg.


 
How much is the IQ test?


----------



## The Kai

Danjo said:


> How much is the IQ test?


  If you pass, you fail??


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Time between ranks is not a big deal to me, as long as I'm learning quality martial arts.


----------



## Danjo

The Kai said:


> If you pass, you fail??


 That would be my impression.


----------



## IRO-Bot

Danjo said:


> How much is the IQ test?


 
*laughs*


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Might as well make the best out of ussd while we are still there


----------



## IRO-Bot

Yeah.  I intend to.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> Might as well make the best out of ussd while we are still there


 
Learn as much as you can and ask your instructor as many questions that you can think of. You will have a better understanding of the martial arts.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I spoke with Jeff Hayes.  He knows Master Cliegg and used to be with ussd too.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Mariachi Joe said:


> I spoke with Jeff Hayes. He knows Master Cliegg and used to be with ussd too.


 

To be honest, a lot of people used to be with USSD...


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Yeah I noticed that ussd's former student numbers are probably higher than their current students numbers.  But I can't complain they did get me into martial arts.


----------



## MJS

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

*_*Please, return to the original topic.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-*


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Shaolin Kempo Karate is the system started by GM Fred Villari, who was a student of Nick Cerio, who was a student of George Pesare, who was a student of Sonny Gascon, who I think but could be wrong was a student of Adriano Emperado, who was a student of Prof. William Chow.  
Shaolin Kenpo is the system started by Ralph Castro who was a student of Prof. William Chow, so the two systems are kind of like distant cousins.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Mariachi Joe said:


> Shaolin Kempo Karate is the system started by GM Fred Villari, who was a student of Nick Cerio, who was a student of George Pesare, who was a student of Sonny Gascon, who I think but could be wrong was a student of Adriano Emperado, who was a student of Prof. William Chow.
> Shaolin Kenpo is the system started by Ralph Castro who was a student of Prof. William Chow, so the two systems are kind of like distant cousins.


 
Yes they are...plus, Ralph Castro's guys are really nice and they do have some of the same forms as Fred Villari's SKK because of the obvious Kenpo link.


----------



## Mei Hua

OK, this is a long thread and haven't read every post on it, far from it in fact,


I train/teach primarily Bei Shaolin Honan Meihuazhuang, as well as doing MMA, but our beginning sections are Shaolin Kenpo(Chuan Po) which we teach to those who are in need of some basic skills. There are more varities of Shaolin Kenpo/Kempo than what were listed in the OP, so...

*Mine descend through the Shaolin Su Chuan Fa(Quick Fist Method) Branch of Shaolin Plum-Blossom*


----------



## Danjo

Mariachi Joe said:


> Shaolin Kempo Karate is the system started by GM Fred Villari, who was a student of Nick Cerio, who was a student of George Pesare, who was a student of Sonny Gascon, who I think but could be wrong was a student of Adriano Emperado, who was a student of Prof. William Chow.
> Shaolin Kenpo is the system started by Ralph Castro who was a student of Prof. William Chow, so the two systems are kind of like distant cousins.


 
Well, as near as I can tell, Sonny Gascon only trained Pesare for a couple of months (according to Gascon's comments on a dvd interview, Pesare was a purple belt when he left him after 2 1/2 months) Pesare took 4 forms and 10 combinations and went to Rhode Island and started teaching since there was no Kempo there. He later got black belts in TKD and Judo adn incorporated it into his Kempo stuff. He taught Cerio to black belt who added a lot of things including stuff from Mas Oyama's book. Cerio taught Villari to 2nd degree black belt. Villari left and started his own thing and took Blue Belt Mattera with him. Cerio later changed his entire system and called it Nick Cerio's Kempo and it had little resemblance to what he'd taught Villari anymore.

Ralph Castro was a student of Chow and then Parker and then started his own thing.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Thanks for filling in gaps.  I always thought that SKK was the same as NCK up to 2nd dan.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Mariachi Joe said:


> Thanks for filling in gaps. I always thought that SKK was the same as NCK up to 2nd dan.


 

NCK teaches these forms called cats.  SKK doesn't each those.  also, they don't teach circle of the leopard in skk whereas they do in nck.


----------



## RevIV

Gufbal1982 said:


> NCK teaches these forms called cats. SKK doesn't each those. also, they don't teach circle of the leopard in skk whereas they do in nck.


 
I know some of the cat forms - they are similiar to the SKK pinions.  at least i know one of them is similiar to pinion 3.  which is a take off of Heiaen (sp)  Nidan.
In Peace
Jesse


----------



## Gufbal1982

RevIV said:


> I know some of the cat forms - they are similiar to the SKK pinions. at least i know one of them is similiar to pinion 3. which is a take off of Heiaen (sp) Nidan.
> In Peace
> Jesse


 
I've never seen the cats before, so I'll take your word for it.  I know Circle of the Leopard though...


----------



## RevIV

Gufbal1982 said:


> I've never seen the cats before, so I'll take your word for it. I know Circle of the Leopard though...


 
circle of the leopard is NCK's version of 2 kata.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

RevIV said:


> circle of the leopard is NCK's version of 2 kata.


Are you sure?


----------



## almost a ghost

I do know at one point Circle of the Tiger or Swift Tiger, can't remember the name but it was a NCK form, was being taught at USSD, but around 98 I was told that I didn't have to remember it for Nidan.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

almost a ghost said:


> I do know at one point Circle of the Tiger or Swift Tiger, can't remember the name but it was a NCK form, was being taught at USSD, but around 98 I was told that I didn't have to remember it for Nidan.


 
I had to have both of them for nidan.  And I did them on my test.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

I would like to see how different Villaris forums are to ussd's.


----------



## 14 Kempo

almost a ghost said:


> I do know at one point Circle of the Tiger or Swift Tiger, can't remember the name but it was a NCK form, was being taught at USSD, but around 98 I was told that I didn't have to remember it for Nidan.


 
"Circle of the Tiger" and "Swift Tiger" are forms taught at Shodan, to attain Nidan within the current USSD cirriculum.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

14 Kempo said:


> "Circle of the Tiger" and "Swift Tiger" are forms taught at Shodan, to attain Nidan within the current USSD cirriculum.


Hey 14 kempo,
You trained with villaris and ussd how different are the forms, combos?


----------



## 14 Kempo

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Hey 14 kempo,
> You trained with villaris and ussd how different are the forms, combos?


 
To be honest, they are quite the same material. Of course FV Combos are USSD DMs and there are slight differences in hand strikes and sometimes angles. White to Black, pretty much identical. There are some more elaborate differences in DMs after Nidan. With the forms, there are also slight differences in hand strikes and sometimes angles in the more advanced forms.

But, overall, pretty much the same material ... seems to be pretty easy to apply the changes.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

14 Kempo said:


> To be honest, they are quite the same material. Of course FV Combos are USSD DMs and there are slight differences in hand strikes and sometimes angles. White to Black, pretty much identical. There are some more elaborate differences in DMs after Nidan. With the forms, there are also slight differences in hand strikes and sometimes angles in the more advanced forms.
> 
> But, overall, pretty much the same material ... seems to be pretty easy to apply the changes.


 
Thats cool.What rank are you now?
 Who do you like training with ussd or villaris? Why?


----------



## Matt

RevIV said:


> I know some of the cat forms - they are similiar to the SKK pinions.  at least i know one of them is similiar to pinion 3.  which is a take off of Heiaen (sp)  Nidan.
> In Peace
> Jesse



I think you mean Pinan 3 is a take off of Pinan Sandan  / Heian Sandan. But you know that. 

Just poking my nose in between assignments. 

Matt


----------



## Matt

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Are you sure?



Yep, he's sure. 

I am too.


----------



## Matt

14 Kempo said:


> "Circle of the Tiger" and "Swift Tiger" are forms taught at Shodan, to attain Nidan within the current USSD cirriculum.



Swift tigers is a Fred Villari form based on "Circle of the Panther" from NCK which is based on Pinon 7 by SGM S. George Pesare. Just trying to keep things straight for those keeping score. 

Matt


----------



## RevIV

Matt said:


> I think you mean Pinan 3 is a take off of Pinan Sandan / Heian Sandan. But you know that.
> 
> Just poking my nose in between assignments.
> 
> Matt


 
even as a re-read what i wrote i couldnt see my mistake. Man the brain slips after the midnight hours.  Yes sandan was what i meant.  Thanks Matt glad to see you taking a few minutes of down time.
Jesse


----------



## Matt

RevIV said:


> even as a re-read what i wrote i couldnt see my mistake. Man the brain slips after the midnight hours.  Yes sandan was what i meant.  Thanks Matt glad to see you taking a few minutes of down time.
> Jesse



It feels good -  no school tomorrow, and a zillion page project handed in today. It's miller time, so to speak. I'll even probably get more than 3-1/2 hours of sleep tonight. Will the wonders ever cease. 

I've been more selective in my 'forum viewing' and am sticking close to Kempo/kenpo. It's like getting beat up by a 'Tai Chi Gang'. I just don't have that kind of time.


----------



## 14 Kempo

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Thats cool.What rank are you now?
> Who do you like training with ussd or villaris? Why?


 
I'm not sure it will be fair to compare, being that the timeline has a huge gap in it. I studied at FVSSD from 1985-1992 and with USSD from 2003-Present. I achieved Nidan with both. Yes, the second trip to Nidan has been a fast one, but as stated previously, the material is almost identical. I would say that back when I studied with FVSSD, it was more real ... that could simply be the times. However, I believe at FVSSD we were a bit more rounded in skills. We had some training on the ground, not much, but some. There is very little, if any, at USSD. I do remember back when, that it was a more serious student. I worked out mainly with police officers, military personnel and others like me, former athletes and such, a bit more serious about how it applied to the street. It may have been my instructors, but back then it was of course the required material for rank, but the other techniques were more 'keep what works for you'. Sparring and tournaments are told now to be very important part of training. I could agree, if the sparring was more real, it is point sparring. I am one that does not want to have to ask what the person did to get the point, unless of course I'm simply knocked out. One thing that I believe applies to all martial arts, no matter the style, is to look at the material for what it can be, rather than what it is. Try it from different angles, against different punches, grabs, clubs, knives, kicks, whatever ... find what works and what doesn't ... and practice, practice, practice.

Anyway, again, it probably isn't fair to compare with such a gap in training.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

14 Kempo said:


> I'm not sure it will be fair to compare, being that the timeline has a huge gap in it. I studied at FVSSD from 1985-1992 and with USSD from 2003-Present. I achieved Nidan with both. Yes, the second trip to Nidan has been a fast one, but as stated previously, the material is almost identical. I would say that back when I studied with FVSSD, it was more real ... that could simply be the times. However, I believe at FVSSD we were a bit more rounded in skills. We had some training on the ground, not much, but some. There is very little, if any, at USSD. I do remember back when, that it was a more serious student. I worked out mainly with police officers, military personnel and others like me, former athletes and such, a bit more serious about how it applied to the street. It may have been my instructors, but back then it was of course the required material for rank, but the other techniques were more 'keep what works for you'. Sparring and tournaments are told now to be very important part of training. I could agree, if the sparring was more real, it is point sparring. I am one that does not want to have to ask what the person did to get the point, unless of course I'm simply knocked out. One thing that I believe applies to all martial arts, no matter the style, is to look at the material for what it can be, rather than what it is. Try it from different angles, against different punches, grabs, clubs, knives, kicks, whatever ... find what works and what doesn't ... and practice, practice, practice.
> 
> Anyway, again, it probably isn't fair to compare with such a gap in training.


 


Do you learn from a 4th degree now?


----------



## 14 Kempo

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Do you learn from a 4th degree now?


 
3rd, working on 4th


----------



## MeatWad2

How long ago did your instructor get 3rd?  Are you paying the standard USSD rate of 250?


----------



## 14 Kempo

MeatWad2 said:


> How long ago did your instructor get 3rd? Are you paying the standard USSD rate of 250?


 
Everyone on here knows what USSD charges, there is no reason to try and turn this discussion into another bash session. As far as how lond has a person been a certain rank, get real, it matters not in most situations. There are people out there carrying rank that they do not deserve, so what good would it do to know what rank was held for how long. Would a person who has been 3rd Dan for 2 years, 3 months, 2 days, and 5 hours be a better instructor than one who has held rank for 2 years, 2 months? I say it doesn't matter, a good instructor is a good instructor, no matter what the rank. A person needs to be positive and look for the good in not only people, but techniques. No matter what our rank, we can all learn from each other. Can a black belt not learn something from a white belt? Could there not be an excellent instructor that has had bad fortune and is living under a bridge somewhere? Is the instruction of a person teaching from his/her garage better cause the costs are lower?

Sorry if this is a bit over the edge, but seems to me this question was a setup ... bash me if you like, but do it directly.


----------



## Danjo

14 Kempo said:


> Everyone on here knows what USSD charges, there is no reason to try and turn this discussion into another bash session. As far as how lond has a person been a certain rank, get real, it matters not in most situations. There are people out there carrying rank that they do not deserve, so what good would it do to know what rank was held for how long. Would a person who has been 3rd Dan for 2 years, 3 months, 2 days, and 5 hours be a better instructor than one who has held rank for 2 years, 2 months? I say it doesn't matter, a good instructor is a good instructor, no matter what the rank. A person needs to be positive and look for the good in not only people, but techniques. No matter what our rank, we can all learn from each other. Can a black belt not learn something from a white belt? Could there not be an excellent instructor that has had bad fortune and is living under a bridge somewhere? Is the instruction of a person teaching from his/her garage better cause the costs are lower?
> 
> Sorry if this is a bit over the edge, but seems to me this question was a setup ... bash me if you like, but do it directly.


 
I agree. People that post on here should be taken on their own merits. Whether they are from the USSD or anywhere else. Unless they come on here to extol the virtues of it, who cares where they're from? I know we've had purple belts come one here and say things that are ignorant regarding that organization etc. and they've gotten the treatment that they deserve, but if an individual is coming on here it shouldn't matter if they are USSD, Viallri's, Joe Blow's McKempo or whatever. I first came here as USSD and as a result of my interactions here am now Kajukenbo (which I'm very happy with "Kajukenbo Forever!"  ). If I had just gotten flamed due to my affiliation, I might never have learned enough to know what I know now. Label people based on what they do or do not write, not on where they train.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Danjo said:


> I agree. People that post on here should be taken on their own merits. Whether they are from the USSD or anywhere else. Unless they come on here to extol the virtues of it, who cares where they're from? I know we've had purple belts come one here and say things that are ignorant regarding that organization etc. and they've gotten the treatment that they deserve, but if an individual is coming on here it shouldn't matter if they are USSD, Viallri's, Joe Blow's McKempo or whatever. I first came here as USSD and as a result of my interactions here am now Kajukenbo (which I'm very happy with "Kajukenbo Forever!"  ). If I had just gotten flamed due to my affiliation, I might never have learned enough to know what I know now. Label people based on what they do or do not write, not on where they train.


 

I agree, I think ussd can be good for some depending on what they are looking for.  I'm grateful to ussd for getting me started in Kempo.


----------



## Gufbal1982

14 Kempo said:


> Everyone on here knows what USSD charges, there is no reason to try and turn this discussion into another bash session. As far as how lond has a person been a certain rank, get real, it matters not in most situations. There are people out there carrying rank that they do not deserve, so what good would it do to know what rank was held for how long. Would a person who has been 3rd Dan for 2 years, 3 months, 2 days, and 5 hours be a better instructor than one who has held rank for 2 years, 2 months? I say it doesn't matter, a good instructor is a good instructor, no matter what the rank. A person needs to be positive and look for the good in not only people, but techniques. No matter what our rank, we can all learn from each other. Can a black belt not learn something from a white belt? Could there not be an excellent instructor that has had bad fortune and is living under a bridge somewhere? Is the instruction of a person teaching from his/her garage better cause the costs are lower?
> 
> Sorry if this is a bit over the edge, but seems to me this question was a setup ... bash me if you like, but do it directly.


 
Hey, 14 Kempo, when did your instructor get his 3rd?  I'd like to call and congratulate him seeing as we don't train together anymore.  The last time I saw him he was a 2nd...my how time flies.  Anyway, Danjo will attest to the fact that when I was in my dojo's I never acted as if I were a 2nd degree.  One of the few things I learned from USSD was to "act as if," so I acted as if I was not.  I will admit I am your typical burned instructor, but I did learn some lessons while I was there.  I actually study BJJ from a guy in his garage...so...um, take that at what you will.  I train Kung Fu in a basement of a fitness center.  I'm not afraid of where I train.  My instructor's are good and that's all that matters.


----------



## SK101

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> I would like to see how different Villaris forums are to ussd's.



   When I got the Villari DVDs I expected large differences, but I was highly surprised that 99% was the same. 

   Professor Ingargiola also puts out a tape series. A little more variation I would say not that, that is good or bad. I really like the Professor I videos, but the're certainly not filmed as well. Alot of information on them. Bunkai of the forms, weapon defense, weapon forms, etc.


----------



## SK101

Josh Oakley said:


> Likely, their motives would also be questioned.



Originally Posted by IRO-Bot  
Money and recognition for her, money and recognition for USSD.
It's a win-win situation for them.
To be completely honest, I didn't know who Cynthia Rothrock was before I joined United Studios.
In having read the interview, it's obvious she doesn't know anything about United Studios. Nothing. Her rank is probably completely honorary... Given only because of who she is. How she has her own school is well beyond me.

I can only imagine what would happen if someone like Jackie Chan or Jet Li joined USSD! 

     Likely, their motives would also be questioned. -Response to previous

I have to agree with you it doesn't matter if god joins USSD the outsiders will say the devil made him do it!! Actually when I was with USSD that's exactly the way we wanted it. Master Taylor used to say when they stop talking trash thats when we have to worry their actually becoming professionals.


----------



## Danjo

SK101 said:


> Master Taylor used to say when they stop talking trash thats when we have to worry their actually becoming professionals.


 
Yeah you're right. It would be hard to talk about a group being overly commercial (to the point where they were far more concerned with making money than teaching good martial arts) if you were doing the same thing. So I think that Taylor was right. When people stop being critical of the USSD, you know they've jumped onto the commercial bandwagon themselves and are becoming financial competition for the USSD (which is clearly Taylor's concern from his quote). Good point.


----------



## Hand Sword

Or.......maybe people have matured to a point, where, they realize, that people are going to do what they want, and we should just worry about, and focus on ourselves, and our own skills. Just because others throw away the values of the arts, is no reason for all to do it.


----------



## Danjo

Hand Sword said:


> Or.......maybe people have matured to a point, where, they realize, that people are going to do what they want, and we should just worry about, and focus on ourselves, and our own skills. Just because others throw away the values of the arts, is no reason for all to do it.


 
I think that one _should_ worry about what others are doing to the extent that you can see whether you're getting ripped off or not. There's a difference between someone teaching the martial arts so that they can make their Ford or Honda payment and one teaching so that they can make their Ferrari payment. There will be a slight difference in their motivation, and priorities I think.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Danjo said:


> I think that one _should_ worry about what others are doing to the extent that you can see whether you're getting ripped off or not. There's a difference between someone teaching the martial arts so that they can make their Ford or Honda payment and one teaching so that they can make their Ferrari payment. There will be a slight difference in their motivation, and priorities I think.


 
I agree with Danjo on this one.  My FV instructor made payments on his Honda, has 300+ students and only wants to teach for the sake of teaching.  I was making a Ford payment as an instructor, and I cared about my students and only want to make the greatest classes for them.  I had the same drive and motives as him.  I know of people who make a Ferrari payment and just don't care at all.  All they care about is making money.  Sure, according to the USSD pyschology (as well as other people) that doing what you love and making money is a good thing...and it can be, but it shouldn't be the only thing.  When money becomes the main object, that's when the quality of instruction goes down.  Take that as you will.  There's the Ferrari instructors (ones that only care about the money) and the Honda/Ford instructors (the ones that do it for the love of it)...find out whose classes work best for you.  I honestly look for the instructor's car when I go to a class at a new school.  That determines my decision.


----------



## Hand Sword

As do I. I haven't disagreed about you and his evaluations of them. They are who they are as people, and will do what they do, irregardless of our protests. Worrying about them takes away from US as practioners. If we are not apart of their organization, nothing they do affects what we do. Theres no need to become part of the problem by becoming snipers on chat boards. It's all apart of the negativity. Our thoughts and responses can be done in a more constructive manner, which is all I was saying.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

About the original topic of the thread, I was wondering if anyone here has had any experience with Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo, and what is the big difference between his style and SKK other than lineage.


----------



## Danjo

Mariachi Joe said:


> About the original topic of the thread, I was wondering if anyone here has had any experience with Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo, and what is the big difference between his style and SKK other than lineage.


 
It's really two different things. GM Castro trained with Prof. Chow. He made a practice of writing down and systematizing his teachings. He called his art Shaolin Kenpo because that was the name of Prof. Chow's art at one point and he was allowed to continue it.

Shaolin Kempo has a different history. SGM Pesare trained for a couple of months with Victor Gascon to purple belt. He then moved back east and supplemented his training with TKD, Judo, escrima etc. and invented his own art that he passed on to Prof. Cerio. Cerio added some things to what he had from various sources including Mas Oyama's book, and passed this on to GM Villari. Villari added and changed things and called his art Shaolin Kempo Karate. Villari taught Mattera.

So aside from the name similarity, they don't have a lot in common.


----------



## DavidCC

Gufbal1982 said:


> When money becomes the main object, that's when the quality of instruction goes down.


 
I wonder if martial arts is the only industry where it is generally assumed that, when quality goes down profits go up.

Is this assumption correct?

How can that be possible?  You give people less of what they want and they pay you more for it?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "quality"?


----------



## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> I wonder if martial arts is the only industry where it is generally assumed that, when quality goes down profits go up.
> 
> Is this assumption correct?
> 
> How can that be possible? You give people less of what they want and they pay you more for it?
> 
> I guess it depends on what you mean by "quality"?


 
Well, the reason that this applies to the martial arts in particular is that the harder the training, the fewer the students you will retain. The fewer the students, the less money you're going to make. The formula is old and true. Plus, there's only so much money that you can charge a students and have them keep coming. So, in order to make money, you have to find the balance. You have to figure out how much money you can charge and how easy you have to make your training in order to maximize profits.

If you're not concerned with how much money you make, then you don't care how many students stick it out. You train them the way you think you should to produce good fighters and the one's that stick it out are the serious ones that will carry on the art. This makes for quality, but you better have another job.


----------



## DavidCC

I'm not surprised you had an thought on it 

I'm not surprised that nobody else did 

any more thoughts from anyone?

does it have to be that way?  is the American adult tendency to laziness completely insurmountable?  Is that the only reason this is true?


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> I wonder if martial arts is the only industry where it is generally assumed that, when quality goes down profits go up.
> 
> Is this assumption correct?
> 
> How can that be possible? You give people less of what they want and they pay you more for it?
> 
> I guess it depends on what you mean by "quality"?


 
Actually it is a pretty well known fact that people will feel they are going to get what they pay for ... it is American nature to assume that if one is more expensive, it must be the best. We learn this from childhood. A Mercedes costs more than a Ford. Dreyers costs more than Thrifty. A Pentax cost more than Kodak. Which is better? Without testing, driving, tasting or using, most would immediately say Mercedes, Dreyers and Pentax ... why, cause they cost more. In some cases it is true, in others not so true ... but we are taught more expensive is better.

I know that was lame, but hopefully you get the what I'm trying to say.


----------



## Danjo

14 Kempo said:


> Actually it is a pretty well known fact that people will feel they are going to get what they pay for ... it is American nature to assume that if one is more expensive, it must be the best. We learn this from childhood. A Mercedes costs more than a Ford. Dreyers costs more than Thrifty. A Pentax cost more than Kodak. Which is better? Without testing, driving, tasting or using, most would immediately say Mercedes, Dreyers and Pentax ... why, cause they cost more. In some cases it is true, in others not so true ... but we are taught more expensive is better.
> 
> I know that was lame, but hopefully you get the what I'm trying to say.


 
You pay more for a more luxurious ride that looks better. If I had rough terrain to cover, I'd rather be in a Ford pickup than a mercedes. For serious heavy work, looks and comfort aren't what count.


----------



## Hand Sword

Funny thing? I've known people who wouldn't want to be in anything other than a mercedes, and wouldn't be caught dead in a pick up, no matter what. It comes down to doing what makes you happy. The martial arts are now something of a fun past time for a lot of people. You can't hold them to our standards, as we are serious about them. If people don't mind paying it, and attending there, inspite of the many choices available, good luck to them. To each, their own, I say.


Any chance on answers to the original question? It would be great to hear honest, well thought out opinions.


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Actually it is a pretty well known fact that people will feel they are going to get what they pay for ... it is American nature to assume that if one is more expensive, it must be the best. We learn this from childhood. A Mercedes costs more than a Ford. Dreyers costs more than Thrifty. A Pentax cost more than Kodak. Which is better? Without testing, driving, tasting or using, most would immediately say Mercedes, Dreyers and Pentax ... why, cause they cost more. In some cases it is true, in others not so true ... but we are taught more expensive is better.
> 
> I know that was lame, but hopefully you get the what I'm trying to say.


 
When I first started doing independant consulting, I asked my "mentor"  "Carl, how do you get $100 an hour" and his answer blew me away - "You just tell them you're worth $100 an hour and it will make them feel like they are getting the best." Which, i think, is exactly what you are saying 

So, why don't the best teachers, with the hardest training, charge the most?  By this logic, which I think is sound, they could.  So why does that not work?

(I think we all have assumptions about over-priced McDojos etc I'm just questioning some of those assumptions)


----------



## KempoGuy06

I didnt really understand the term "McDojo" untill i did some reading but now that i see it i understand the whole concept. 

I live in KY and started training about 6 months ago. I did some heavy research on what school were near me. Then i researched the styles. I found a lot of these "McDojos" around town. Flashy exteriors, fancy equipment, expensive cars in the parking lot. I talked to the instructors and there was no passion in their voice. It was all "this cost that much" and "that cost that much" 

The place i ended up choosing was not flashy. It had equipment but it was all second hand. But what really got my attention was my instructors enthusiasm about his style. A 1 hour introductory session turned into a 2-1/2 hour introductory session and discussion about what the style is, what its purpose is and so on. 

Sorry for the length.

B


----------



## Hand Sword

That's a GREAT story! Exactly what we need here in MT. Don't worry about the length of your post. God knows, there are plenty of long winded posters around here (
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). I'm very glad you found a great connection for your training, Good Luck To You! Keep us updated.


----------



## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> So, why don't the best teachers, with the hardest training, charge the most? By this logic, which I think is sound, they could. So why does that not work?


 
Because the students that are serious enough to put up with the hard training are not always wealthy enough to pay top dollar. Also, many of those that CAN afford such fees, are fairly pampered people and don't want to train hard.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Danjo said:


> It's really two different things. GM Castro trained with Prof. Chow. He made a practice of writing down and systematizing his teachings. He called his art Shaolin Kenpo because that was the name of Prof. Chow's art at one point and he was allowed to continue it.
> 
> Shaolin Kempo has a different history. SGM Pesare trained for a couple of months with Victor Gascon to purple belt. He then moved back east and supplemented his training with TKD, Judo, escrima etc. and invented his own art that he passed on to Prof. Cerio. Cerio added some things to what he had from various sources including Mas Oyama's book, and passed this on to GM Villari. Villari added and changed things and called his art Shaolin Kempo Karate. Villari taught Mattera.
> 
> So aside from the name similarity, they don't have a lot in common.


 
So is GM Castro's style more like Kara-Ho.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Danjo said:


> Because the students that are serious enough to put up with the hard training are not always wealthy enough to pay top dollar. Also, many of those that CAN afford such fees, are fairly pampered people and don't want to train hard.


 
Dido. If my training was anymore i dont think i would be able to afford it. Im in college and everyone knows how that goes. I saw the prices of the other school that i mentioned and nearly laughed it was rediculous. To give you an idea of how much it was the monthy payments on a F350 powerstroke with no down payment would have been cheaper.

Thank you Hand Sword. I love my school it has given me a lot in the last couple of months. Im actually approaching my purple belt test as long my knee doesnt need surgery. So im pretty excited and nervouse at the same time. 

B


----------



## dianhsuhe

_*"So is GM Castro's style more like Kara-Ho."*_

No...


----------



## Mariachi Joe

dianhsuhe said:


> _*"So is GM Castro's style more like Kara-Ho."*_
> 
> No...


Is it more similar to American Kenpo then?


----------



## Danjo

Mariachi Joe said:


> Is it more similar to American Kenpo then?


 
They're all just a bit different. Or a lot different depending. Look, Professor Chow taught a lot of people over the years. His Kempo evolved and changed over time to an extent and the various students he had took what they'd learned and went their own way with it.

GM Bill Chun Sr. learned from Prof. Chow back in the 1950's and Master Chun Jr. in the 1960's etc. GGM Castro learned from Prof. Chow in the 50's also. GM Kuoha, learned from Prof. Chow in the 1960's into the 1980's. They all also had other martial arts that they learned and they each did their own thing with the art. Each art therefore looks different than the other. 

GM Kuoha has carried on the name of Kara Ho and has the blessing of Prof. Chow's widow and advisor as the one to carry on this name and system despite his additions of TKD type kicks etc. to Prof. Chow's original Kempo template (which, according to GM Kuoha, was given the blessing of Prof. Chow). If you look at the videos of Kara Ho, it has a lot of those high-flying kicks etc. that the other students of Prof. Chow do not.

GGM Castro, was a student of Prof. Chow's before Kuoha (1955-58) and he was also partners with Ed Parker for years too. He even recieved his black belt from Ed Parker originally. In 1970, he recieved his Grandmaster's certificate from Prof. Chow. When he started teaching Prof. Chow gave him permission to call his art Shaolin Kenpo which was a name Chow used to call his art back in the day.

Master Chun jr. inherited his system from his late father who was a long time student of Prof. Chow's and teaches a style of Kempo called Chinese Kempo (another name that Prof. Chow called his art back in the day) and it resembles what Prof. Chow taught to the Chuns.

When it comes to GGM Ed Parker and Sijo Adriano Emperado (both students of Prof Chow's from the early days), they changed what they taught so much from what they had learned from Chow that neither claimed to merely pass on Chow's teaching.

What you're going to find that is similar in the above mentioned arts is that each is "Technique Driven" rather than "Form Driven" and that each is rapid and leathal. They all emphasize flow and rapid strikes to disable opponents. etc.


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## Mariachi Joe

Thanks for the break down


----------



## dianhsuhe

Wow-  Pretty good breakdown as far as I can tell...

I can only say that the "TKD kicks" that were incorporated into Kara-Ho were CHANGED by Professor Chow.  I came from TKD originally and these kicks have little in common as far as execution.

Professor Chow saw Grandmaster Kuoha doing some high kicks while warming up before one of their training sessions and asked where he had learned them-- Professor then helped Grandmaster Kuoha to shorten the chambering, so the kicks are not telegraphed as much, and to snap and extend the kicks instead of swinging them.  So while Professor Chow never seemed to utilize high kicks, he still had a hand in modifying and adding them to his Kara-Ho Kempo system.  Same can be said with weapons--

Cheers!


----------



## Danjo

dianhsuhe said:


> Wow- Pretty good breakdown as far as I can tell...
> 
> I can only say that the "TKD kicks" that were incorporated into Kara-Ho were CHANGED by Professor Chow. I came from TKD originally and these kicks have little in common as far as execution.
> 
> Professor Chow saw Grandmaster Kuoha doing some high kicks while warming up before one of their training sessions and asked where he had learned them-- Professor then helped Grandmaster Kuoha to shorten the chambering, so the kicks are not telegraphed as much, and to snap and extend the kicks instead of swinging them. So while Professor Chow never seemed to utilize high kicks, he still had a hand in modifying and adding them to his Kara-Ho Kempo system. Same can be said with weapons--
> 
> Cheers!


 
Thanks for the additional information brudda.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Mariachi Joe-  There are more differences than similarities between American Kenpo and Kara-Ho Kempo.  Parker changed about 90% of what he learned from Professor Chow and renamed the system.  

Even if he did not change what he was taught back in the 50's forward, it changed without him up until Professor Chow's death in 1987.

Cheers


----------



## Hand Sword

I've asked this many times, and never get a definitive answer. Since everyone always talks about "Changes" That were made in their systems, and how they no longer look like they way Mr. Chow taught, What were those changes? Are they real changes, or is this mere " my instructor and style are legit" loyalty? Can anyone give real, substantive changes that were made, SPECIFICALLY?


----------



## Mariachi Joe

What did Parker add to his style, was it Kung Fu, Karate, or a grappeling art like Judo or Jujitsu?


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## Hand Sword

He was proficient in judo, but he added a Chinese influence to his style.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Hand Sword said:


> I've asked this many times, and never get a definitive answer. Since everyone always talks about "Changes" That were made in their systems, and how they no longer look like they way Mr. Chow taught, What were those changes? Are they real changes, or is this mere " my instructor and style are legit" loyalty? Can anyone give real, substantive changes that were made, SPECIFICALLY?


 
I am a b it confused by your post...Are you referring to what Parker changed or what changes occurred to Kara-Ho from the 50's to now?

If you are talking about Kara-Ho, try a search for "Kara-Ho" or "Kuoha".  MUCH information is right here on MT from Grandmaster Kuoha himself.


----------



## Hand Sword

My posts through out the thread have been trying once again to re focus people. It has been once again attcking SKK via FVSSD, and USSD. The original poster asked what were the differences. It was hardly answered, in terms of the content of the styles themselves. Instead, it was assaults against the prominent members of those organizations. In place of specific differences, the business practices of the individuals have been the focus of what the differences are of SKK, as a style.

In terms of the members here, and their different styles of the Kempo family, sometimes within the same family, they have screamed about "changes" and just "how different" they are. Claiming their way has this and that, and that way doesn't, etc... When asked about the differences, it goes back to the assaults. I for one am tired of the pointless debating in the Kempo family. All of our founders could be and have been questioned in some form or fashion, at one time or another. The sad thing about this is, that real contributions to the sytems is overlooked, and could have real fruitful discussions, where all could learn something. The further truth, for all of us, which deep down we all know, is that they are far more similarities, yes, I said similarities, than there are differences. So, with that, I ask all, if any can speak of specific changes or differences to our sytems, IN TERMS OF THE STYLES THEMSELVES, then please, speak about what you've noticed, found out, experienced etc..


----------



## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> My posts through out the thread have been trying once again to re focus people. It has been once again attcking SKK via FVSSD, and USSD. The original poster asked what were the differences. It was hardly answered, in terms of the content of the styles themselves. Instead, it was assaults against the prominent members of those organizations. In place of specific differences, the business practices of the individuals have been the focus of what the differences are of SKK, as a style.
> 
> In terms of the members here, and their different styles of the Kempo family, sometimes within the same family, they have screamed about "changes" and just "how different" they are. Claiming their way has this and that, and that way doesn't, etc... When asked about the differences, it goes back to the assaults. I for one am tired of the pointless debating in the Kempo family. All of our founders could be and have been questioned in some form or fashion, at one time or another. The sad thing about this is, that real contributions to the sytems is overlooked, and could have real fruitful discussions, where all could learn something. The further truth, for all of us, which deep down we all know, is that they are far more similarities, yes, I said similarities, than there are differences. So, with that, I ask all, if any can speak of specific changes or differences to our sytems, IN TERMS OF THE STYLES THEMSELVES, then please, speak about what you've noticed, found out, experienced etc..


 
Hand Sword great post. I agree with you on getting back on topic, I too am curious about the differences. May I make a suggestion to get the ball rolling? Lets start off with specific examples of something from someones style. A SD tech, combination, kempo anything. 

B


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## Danjo

Hand Sword said:


> I've asked this many times, and never get a definitive answer. Since everyone always talks about "Changes" That were made in their systems, and how they no longer look like they way Mr. Chow taught, What were those changes? Are they real changes, or is this mere " my instructor and style are legit" loyalty? Can anyone give real, substantive changes that were made, SPECIFICALLY?


 
Hand Sword, you're trying to kill all the fun. Oh well. 

If we're talking about SKK and what is different from what Prof. Chow taught, I would say it is a lot different. SKK has had so many things added to it and so many things left out of it from the Kempo taught by Chow it hardly resembles the same art. 

For instance: The pinans in SKK were never taught by Chow. They were, for the most part, taken from Mas Oyama's book, slightly modified, and inserted by Nick Cerio back in the 1960's. They are very Japanese in flavor. The "Katas" found in SKK were made up by either Walter Godin, Sonny Gascon or George Pesare depending on what version of their history you look at. The combinations/DMs were made up by the same people from scratch. They don't even look like Kajukenbo which is supposedly where they got the idea for them. The attacks are sternum punches done in a Japanese Karate style, rather than from a boxing stance and reverse cross punch. 

All in all, a lot of differences from what it looks like to me. If you look at Bill Chun, Ralph Castro or Sam Kuoha's clips and videos, you see some similarities between them all even though they are all different from each other. There seems to be a core philosophy of rapid-fire techniques that is lacking in the more Japanese Karate-like SKK. In other words, they all have more in common with each other, than they do with SKK in terms of appearance and execution.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Danjo said:


> Hand Sword, you're trying to kill all the fun. Oh well.
> 
> If we're talking about SKK and what is different from what Prof. Chow taught, I would say it is a lot different. SKK has had so many things added to it and so many things left out of it from the Kempo taught by Chow it hardly resembles the same art.
> 
> For instance: The pinans in SKK were never taught by Chow. They were, for the most part, taken from Mas Oyama's book, slightly modified, and inserted by Nick Cerio back in the 1960's. They are very Japanese in flavor. The "Katas" found in SKK were made up by either Walter Godin, Sonny Gascon or George Pesare depending on what version of their history you look at. The combinations/DMs were made up by the same people from scratch. They don't even look like Kajukenbo which is supposedly where they got the idea for them. The attacks are sternum punches done in a Japanese Karate style, rather than from a boxing stance and reverse cross punch.
> 
> All in all, a lot of differences from what it looks like to me. If you look at Bill Chun, Ralph Castro or Sam Kuoha's clips and videos, you see some similarities between them all even though they are all different from each other. There seems to be a core philosophy of rapid-fire techniques that is lacking in the more Japanese Karate-like SKK. In other words, they all have more in common with each other, than they do with SKK in terms of appearance and execution.


 
Interesting, you have any clips of these styles? I would like to see them it would be interesting to watch. 

B


----------



## Hand Sword

Danjo said:


> There seems to be a core philosophy of rapid-fire techniques that is lacking in the more Japanese Karate-like SKK. In other words, they all have more in common with each other, than they do with SKK in terms of appearance and execution.


 
I appreciate your response, and I'm sorry for ruining all of the fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. However, this is exactly what I was talking about. Assumptions about each other. Through out my time, I have witnessed many Ken/mpo people. I have seen the rapid fire striking, and felt it too. Believe me, SKK does NOT lack this quality. The Karate Feel that you're taking about is present in the beginning stages, to build focus, and strength in technique. There is much circular flow, and intricacy added throughout your training, especially in what are referred to as "Kempos". I have also seen and felt certain SKK masters, and they don't lack the qualities you speak of. Witnessing the other "family" members in action, demonstrating their stuff, I've noticed that we all resemble each other in execution, when we let loose. Speed and power are not unique to one of the ways, or not trained for in any of the other ways.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> I appreciate your response, and I'm sorry for ruining all of the fun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . However, this is exactly what I was talking about. Assumptions about each other. Through out my time, I have witnessed many Ken/mpo people. I have seen the rapid fire striking, and felt it too. Believe me, SKK does NOT lack this quality. The Karate Feel that you're taking about is present in the beginning stages, to build focus, and strength in technique. There is much circular flow, and intricacy added throughout your training, especially in what are referred to as "Kempos". I have also seen and felt certain SKK masters, and they don't lack the qualities you speak of. Witnessing the other "family" members in action, demonstrating their stuff, I've noticed that we all resemble each other in execution, when we let loose. Speed and power are not unique to one of the ways, or not trained for in any of the other ways.


 
Is Karate more linear than circular? Sorry for the newb question!

B


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## 14 Kempo

KempoGuy06 said:


> Is Karate more linear than circular? Sorry for the newb question!
> 
> B


 
Yes, generically speaking, Karate is a very hard, linear style ... whereas Kung Fu is generally more fluid and circular.


----------



## Iron Leopard

I'll agree with the above post!   now of course there are other differences and in some kung fu styles there are hard blocks and powerful strikes and some linear movement.  but overall!


----------



## KempoGuy06

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, generically speaking, Karate is a very hard, linear style ... whereas Kung Fu is generally more fluid and circular.


 
Thanks 14 Kempo. Now I understand what Hand Sword was saying about how it is linear at first and then circular as you advance on. Thanks agian.

B


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## Hand Sword

KempoGuy06 said:


> Thanks 14 Kempo. Now I understand what Hand Sword was saying about how it is linear at first and then circular as you advance on. Thanks agian.
> 
> B


 

Sorry for the late response, but I work 3rd shift..so you know....but, Yes, Kung Fu is considered a bit more complicated, with a lot going on at the same time. Now I'm not saying KF is better than Karate, or Karate is anything lesser as an art, but, it is easier to "get" as a beginner. It is taught first, primarily in SKK to build a solid base. It is "easy", and straight forward in it's application. Slowly along the way, you'll get the kung fu movements. Now I know they are not a specfifc style of kung fu, as many here have bashed about, but, it's evident that you are moving less "karate like" and more "Kung Fuish" if that makes sense.


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## Iron Leopard

It makes perfect sense to me and I couldn't have said it any better!


----------



## KempoGuy06

Iron Leopard said:


> It makes perfect sense to me and I couldn't have said it any better!


 
It does make perfect sense. 

But just to make sure i get it would a more 'karate' feel be something like 1 pinan and something more 'Kung Fu' be like one of the kempo's maybe number 7 where you kinda flow and move around the attacker?

Let me know

B


----------



## Danjo

KempoGuy06 said:


> It does make perfect sense.
> 
> But just to make sure i get it would a more 'karate' feel be something like 1 pinan and something more 'Kung Fu' be like one of the kempo's maybe number 7 where you kinda flow and move around the attacker?
> 
> Let me know
> 
> B


 
1 Pinan is a good example of Karate. #18 DM/Combination would be an example of a more Kung-fu style technique.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Danjo said:


> 1 Pinan is a good example of Karate. #18 DM/Combination would be an example of a more Kung-fu style technique.


 
Ok. I dont have 18 yet i think that is purple belt material. Is there anything you can think of around orange that would be Kung-fu style? Thanks.

B


----------



## Danjo

KempoGuy06 said:


> Ok. I dont have 18 yet i think that is purple belt material. Is there anything you can think of around orange that would be Kung-fu style? Thanks.
> 
> B


 
Um, I don't think so. Aren't there any purple belts around that you can watch doing Combo 18?


----------



## Hand Sword

KempoGuy06 said:


> Ok. I dont have 18 yet i think that is purple belt material. Is there anything you can think of around orange that would be Kung-fu style? Thanks.
> 
> B


 
 No, I don't think so. You're still in the "karate" stage. Where everything is pretty straight forward, or sharp angled, and power based. Maybe, the soft circular parry on #6 combo, but, that's a stretch. You'd probably see it more in your "kempos" at that stage. However, Danjo is correct about watching the senior students move, You'll see a distinction. As for the feel, yes 1 pinion is karate, from Mas Oyama's style, I believe, and I'm not familiar with what you call #7 kempo. We didn't have specific numbered kempo's, just kind of a free flow. If you could explain #7, that'd be cool.


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## 14 Kempo

KempoGuy06 said:


> Ok. I dont have 18 yet i think that is purple belt material. Is there anything you can think of around orange that would be Kung-fu style? Thanks.
> 
> B


 
At USSD, #18 is given at the level of orange belt as a requirement for purple.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> No, I don't think so. You're still in the "karate" stage. Where everything is pretty straight forward, or sharp angled, and power based. Maybe, the soft circular parry on #6 combo, but, that's a stretch. You'd probably see it more in your "kempos" at that stage. However, Danjo is correct about watching the senior students move, You'll see a distinction. As for the feel, yes 1 pinion is karate, from Mas Oyama's style, I believe, and I'm not familiar with what you call #7 kempo. We didn't have specific numbered kempo's, just kind of a free flow. If you could explain #7, that'd be cool.


 
Thats not a problem, ill try at least. Here goes...

1. You start in a horse stance.
2. (as someone attacks) You shift you right back to make you body (perpindicular or 90 degrees) to your attacker, while throwing a #4 block (simaltaniously(sp?)
3. You then shift the same foot (right) back to about 135 degrees from the possition in step 2, while striking to the middle of the back with you right elbow, with same hand you do a tigers claw to the groin from behind then a backfist to the back of neck (just below the head)
4. then reach over your right shoulder with your left hand and grab their gi, shirt whatever and with you right leg sweep backwards and pull down at the same time
5. (this is really a continuation of step 4 but i feel it will be easier to understand this way) You continue the leg through theirs, as they fall to the ground you end in a lunge stance (right leg back) and you strke to the face

Hope that is clear if you need me to clarify please feel free to ask questions

B


----------



## KempoGuy06

14 Kempo said:


> At USSD, #18 is given at the level of orange belt as a requirement for purple.


 
I study SKK, but im pretty sure I only recieve combos 5 & 10 at orange. I will check though.

B


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## Hand Sword

Yeah, that's a kung fu feel. Just curious, the claw to the groin, and backfist, come off the elbow strinke, while you're back to back? Karate would destroy the incoming attack, as opposed to rolling off, and go through the opponent.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> Yeah, that's a kung fu feel. Just curious, the claw to the groin, and backfist, come off the elbow strinke, while you're back to back?


 
You are not 'back to back' persay, there is more or less a 20 - 25 degree angle between you (if that makes sense), but other than that yes you are correct the elbow strike, then claw to groin then backfist

quick question for me. You said a soft parry in combo 6, in my 6 it is only a front ball to the solarplexus then cross and cover. Is it taugh in two stages (one for lower rank, one for higher rank)? Maybe yours is different, would you mind describing yours? Thanks

B

ps-HAHA 100th post, and wasnt ready for it to say green belt, thought it would say purple (thats how our belt system is) LOL


----------



## Hand Sword

When I first learned it, many moons ago, I too just had a front kick to the floating ribs. A little while after that, it became a soft parry with your left hand and a simultaneous front kick to the groin. Later, a dragon trap was added in place of the parry, for further stuff, and the kick was to the groin, knee, tummy, or ribs. Usually, to the groin.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> When I first learned it, many moons ago, I too just had a front kick to the floating ribs. A little while after that, it became a soft parry with your left hand and a simultaneous front kick to the groin. Later, a dragon trap was added in place of the parry, for further stuff, and the kick was to the groin, knee, tummy, or ribs. Usually, to the groin.


 
Ok, i know that some of the combos have 'add-ons' at higher ranks. Ive got class tonight (im going barring my knee) so maybe i will be able to catch combo 18. 

I see now that more or less the kempos seem to be more circular, a few of them you move around the attack and the counter attack also combos 5 & 10 are sort of the same way. This denotes a more Kung-Fu style am I correct in this thinking? 

B


----------



## Hand Sword

True to a point. Remember, Kempo also has a blend of the hard and soft, separate, fro kung fu and karate. Mr. Villari like the blend of all three ways.


----------



## Gufbal1982

KempoGuy06 said:


> I study SKK, but im pretty sure I only recieve combos 5 & 10 at orange. I will check though.
> 
> B


 
Um, I would check your manual if I were you.  You receive 2,5 and 18 at orange.  You do not get 10 until blue.  Trust me on this one...


----------



## KempoGuy06

Gufbal1982 said:


> Um, I would check your manual if I were you. You receive 2,5 and 18 at orange. You do not get 10 until blue. Trust me on this one...


 
I have no manual and for my school it is 5 & 10, 18 is at purple. but i wil double check.

B


----------



## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> True to a point. Remember, Kempo also has a blend of the hard and soft, separate, fro kung fu and karate. Mr. Villari like the blend of all three ways.


 
Yes i understand that too. I am looking forward to the more advanced stuff. 

Are the katas and later forms more 'karate' or 'kung fu' style? For the purpose of the discussion i have seen some of 1st kata and would say it is more 'KF' style, correct? As far as what i have actually watch that form looks very good. I love to watch the higher ranks do this form.

Sorry if this is getting boring but i find it fascinating and from what it seems even though we are both SKK our styles have their differences.

B


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Gufbal is right at orange you learn 2,5, and 18.  10 is learned at blue.  where do you learn, is it ussd?


----------



## Iron Leopard

at ussd it's 6 at white, 3 and 7 at yellow, 2, 5 18 at orange and 4,8,9 and 12 at purple.  in some rare instances you might learn a couple of those early such at 7 at white or even 2 at yellow. but usually not.  If someone is ready for more material you give it as a kempo technique not a DM.


----------



## Gufbal1982

KempoGuy06 said:


> I have no manual and for my school it is 5 & 10, 18 is at purple. but i wil double check.
> 
> B


 
Wait...you're with GM Brassard, right?  He might be different...I know at FVSSD you learn 3,5 and 2 at orange.


----------



## Hand Sword

KempoGuy06 said:


> Yes i understand that too. I am looking forward to the more advanced stuff.
> 
> Are the katas and later forms more 'karate' or 'kung fu' style? For the purpose of the discussion i have seen some of 1st kata and would say it is more 'KF' style, correct? As far as what i have actually watch that form looks very good. I love to watch the higher ranks do this form.
> 
> Sorry if this is getting boring but i find it fascinating and from what it seems even though we are both SKK our styles have their differences.
> 
> B


 
 IMHO, That Kata is more karate. The moves are hard, and explosive, moving straight through the opponent. Same for all of the katas. They have their soft moments here and there, but, generally, are mostly hard, karate type. However, as you advance, you will get more kung fuish ideas put into what you are doing, more and more. Between that and the Kempo's, you'll be able to flow back and forth between ways, very well.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Hand Sword said:


> IMHO, That Kata is more karate. The moves are hard, and explosive, moving straight through the opponent. Same for all of the katas. They have their soft moments here and there, but, generally, are mostly hard, karate type. However, as you advance, you will get more kung fuish ideas put into what you are doing, more and more. Between that and the Kempo's, you'll be able to flow back and forth between ways, very well.


 

I agree, both Kata's I know are have more of a Karate feel to them.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> IMHO, That Kata is more karate. The moves are hard, and explosive, moving straight through the opponent. Same for all of the katas. They have their soft moments here and there, but, generally, are mostly hard, karate type. However, as you advance, you will get more kung fuish ideas put into what you are doing, more and more. Between that and the Kempo's, you'll be able to flow back and forth between ways, very well.


 
Thats pretty interesting. I saw 1st kata again last night and thinking back on it i see what you mean.

As for the debate on what combos. i was wrong it is 2 & 5 that i learn at orange. at my school it is 6 & 7 at white, 3 at yellow and 2 & 5 at orange as for what i know now. I miss understood what someone told me and thought it was 10. Sorry for the mix up

B


----------



## DavidCC

I think using metaphorical language such as "it is more kung-fu like" can only take your understanding, and the discussion, so far.

I think this mixing of early train linear, later train circular, is not so good in the long term.

But I think it makes a good business model.  

But it is a fact pretty deeply ingrained into the system and so hard to fight against.  "External to Internal" so while I am teahcing the external elements in the early techniques I start them on the foundation they will need for internal work later - breath control, relaxed movement, posture, posture and posture.  Did I mention posture?

But I never use the metaphors "karate-like"  that just carreis about 1000 times as many connotations as I want to convey.


----------



## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> I think using metaphorical language such as "it is more kung-fu like" can only take your understanding, and the discussion, so far.
> 
> I think this mixing of early train linear, later train circular, is not so good in the long term.
> 
> But I think it makes a good business model.
> 
> But it is a fact pretty deeply ingrained into the system and so hard to fight against. "External to Internal" so while I am teahcing the external elements in the early techniques I start them on the foundation they will need for internal work later - breath control, relaxed movement, posture, posture and posture. Did I mention posture?
> 
> But I never use the metaphors "karate-like" that just carreis about 1000 times as many connotations as I want to convey.


 
David, while I see what you're talking about here, I think that the broader generalities are what's being discussed. Okinawan and Japanese Karate is generally more linear than most forms of "Kung Fu". Now, when looking at the curriculum of SKK, there are techniques and forms that are specifically from Karate such as pinan 1-5. So for the sake of the question being asked, I don't think that using a shorthand way of speaking like "Karate-like" or "Kung fu-like" is out of line or confusing.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

When does SKK become more Kung Fu like than Karate like?  Is it after Shodan or sometime before


----------



## marlon

it isd supposed to start at green belt but really gets going only at nidan in my opinion.
also the Villari threads have been closed for review (just when the bashing stopped it seems) so i will post this here instead of the Who Is Fred Villari thread.  I found it in another thread and it is how i look at Villari's legitimacy in formalizing / creating his shaolin kempo  the systems mentioned are considered legitimate and traditional:




one side question is how do we know what "naha" karate really looked like.
Today we say that the 2 typical naha schools are goju ryu and Uechi ryu, but both those schools were created with a LOT of direct influence from chinese arts. Both the goju founder, Chojun miyagi, and his teacher, [SIZE=-1]Kanryo Higaona,[/SIZE] spent a lot of time training white crane in china before creating goju (and most of its katas). 
The founder of Uechiryu, Uechi[SIZE=-1] Kanbun,[/SIZE] had almost no martial art training at all before moving to china to train (well, to trade, but he trained aswell) -and after that he didnt train at all when he got back to okinawa and didnt start again unit he moved to mainland japan.

I dont know of any "naha" school today that is not based on one of these styles, and how do we know what distiguished karate from the naha region before this significant flood of fukien white crane influnce came along at the turn of the century?

I would say that the pre-Miyagi/Kanryo/Uechi brand of orignal "naha" karate is deader that "tomari" karate.


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## Jdokan

I feel it depends upon how your instructor teaches.  My instructor used to discuss the differences between the two very early in my training....You'll probably find that it will depend on how well you move.  Linear moves are typically easier to get proficient at...once a particular level of skill is reached (regardless of rank) you may be introduced to the circular training methods...
By todays standards I find that my old dojo was introducing students to circular training methods at an earlier time....
Peace!


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## Mariachi Joe

Well I'm at blue belt with ussd and so far it's still mostly linear with very much a karate feel to it.


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## Hisgracecase

I hope I have finally found the forum I've been looking for.  I would just like to swap thoughts with someone else who is in Vilarri's system.   I had studied Judo in my younger years, and wanted to take some sort of karate' training.  After the
big storm of Aug. '05 in my part of the country, there wasn't many schools to choose from.  I chose Vilarri because I could distance study.   So far so good.   Would appreciate some thoughts on the system, and some encouragement.
Thanks.................Doc


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## Hand Sword

Well, with that, welcome aboard Hisgracecase! Taking up any training and discipline in the arts is beneficial for you. For now, if it's strictly a situational thing for you, train how you must, distant or whatever. Anything is better than nothing after all!

As for any specific questions feel free to ask them. There are many here that can help you, both from that style and others. It all overlaps and can be useful to all. So, what would you like to Know?


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## Danjo

Hisgracecase said:


> I hope I have finally found the forum I've been looking for. I would just like to swap thoughts with someone else who is in Vilarri's system. I had studied Judo in my younger years, and wanted to take some sort of karate' training. After the
> big storm of Aug. '05 in my part of the country, there wasn't many schools to choose from. I chose Vilarri because I could distance study. So far so good. Would appreciate some thoughts on the system, and some encouragement.
> Thanks.................Doc


 
Well, are you actually training in a regular school, or is it strictly distance learning? If the latter, then I'm afraid I can't recommend that type of training as it will do you more harm than good. Unless you already have a solid background in a karate system that has taught you proper basics so that you know what it is supposed to feel like, you're simply going to be guessing at whether you have it right or not. Are you training with a partner? If not, then you're going to have even bigger problems due to your lack of being able to gauge distance and timing. Sorry to be so negative here, but trying to learn the martial arts that way is about as useful as having a fake steering wheel and teaching yourself to drive while watching a video sitting on your couch. You may seem like you are learning it, but in reality you can't learn until you get a lot of practice behind the wheel of a car. In fact, the fellow driving without the instructional video will be better off than the one pretending to drive sitting on the couch watching the video. What you need to do is find a place to train live. Even if it means doing something like TKD or whatever. There's really no comparison, and you'll avoid teaching yourself the bad habits that come from self-study.


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## Hisgracecase

Thanks:
I have done some work in a K-school, (TKD, Seido) so I have a decent groundwork of what movements should feel like.
I was attracted to SKK by an old tape of GM Vilarri and liked the way he moved.  It seemed to my limited knowledge
to be compact, quick and effective.  I must also add that 
although street effectiveness is of primary function, I am
drawn to Kempo by symmetry and beauty of movement.
It's great to watch someone who is very adept perform pinan or kata.  I am involved in SKK for self-defense, 
physical fitness, and plain old enjoyment.  I just wanted 
an unbiased opinion on the Vilarri SKK system as one to stick with through to completion.  At this point I am just passed the orange belt stage...................thanks   Doc


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## kosho

If you are enjoying it then stay with it. There is more to kempo then what is at the surface. The deeper you look the more info you will get out of it. also go to seminars and seek out information. ask your instructor and If you do not like the answer look for it and find it. SKK is a great art. ( SYSTEM ) just work and do not settle for being good work on being Great. Know the system not just the movements and forms. 
Kosho


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## kempo7

The Shaolin Kempo system you are studying and a good are as long as you are studying under a competent instructor. If you are learning from a distance via video then I agree with Danjo


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## LawDog

If a person studies only via video he will have the same chance in the street as the lay person who acts as his own attorney does in court.
:sniper:


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## Jdokan

LawDog said:


> If a person studies only via video he will have the same chance in the street as the lay person who acts as his own attorney does in court.
> :sniper:


Well there go all the video sales.....
Personally I always tried to gain my knowledge from the inside of match books...If you're old enough you may remember "learn judo in your own home 25 cents...used to be inside the page of comic books...(when they sold for a dime)


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## Danjo

Jdokan said:


> Well there go all the video sales.....


 
I wish. At least the "Earn your black belt at home" courses.


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## LawDog

I do remember a few of those old books. :wah:


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## Hisgracecase

I already know how to drive. I never ordered the "Judo for $.25" course, I did however study Judo at a good school when I was in my teens. For those who gave some encouragement for my situation of having to "distance study", thanks.
As for the $$$$aspect of DVD , nothing in life comes free,not even a physical dojo; only salvation thru
Jesus Christ. GM Vila...'s organization is no exception. However if I had an active SKK
school closer than overnight away I would definately be there.  In the meantime
I'll have to do the best I can. Thanks.......................


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## Danjo

Hisgracecase said:


> I already know how to drive. I never ordered the "Judo for $.25" course, I did however study Judo at a good school when I was in my teens. For those who gave some encouragement for my situation of having to "distance study", thanks.
> As for the $$$$aspect of DVD , nothing in life comes free,not even a physical dojo; only salvation thru
> Jesus Christ. GM Vila...'s organization is no exception. However if I had an active SKK
> school closer than overnight away I would definately be there. In the meantime
> I'll have to do the best I can. Thanks.......................


 
Hisgracecase,
Look, many of us understand your situation. Not being able to train live sucks big time. I was in that same situation for a couple of years and I hated it. If you go back through my posts, you'll find me lamenting about it at length. I also had the Villari DVD set and even video tested for brown belt with them. I wrote about my honest experience and what the shortfalls of this type of training are. I already had a brown belt in Shotokan and had trained live for over a year in SKK before using the videos so I wasn't coming from a novice perspective.

There is nothing wrong with training on your own as long as you don't confuse it for live training. It's simply not the same thing. Far too much is lost between the live and video training format. So while it is sometimes unfortunately neccessary to train on your own, it isn't even close to training live. It's like the difference between anything that you can watch on a dvd and then try it out with a live partner. It just aint the same.


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