# Can you change Fate?



## Jade Tigress (Jul 25, 2006)

Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?


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## Blindside (Jul 25, 2006)

Fate?  What a depressing concept, no thanks, I prefer self-determination.

Lamont


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## TonyMac (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes! You can absolutely change fate. I believe that's what physical, emotional, psycological and spiritual growth are all about.


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## mantis (Jul 25, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?


this is a very interesting question.  I just do not know how to answer!
I am going to split this topic into 2 concepts:
1. destiny which is what God has determined for us.  I would guess the only way to change this is by asking God to do it.
2. destiny in a sense that it is God's knowledge of what's going to happen in the future.  Since God is all-knowing then this is mere knowledge and there is nothing He determined here. He just knows what's going to happen.

Now does that mean that we just sit here and take our destiny?  that's not the correct.  First we were created with will, the mind, and capabilities to make our own choices.  We may be overwhelmed by factors out of our control but that does not mean that we sit there and do nothing.
A second thought even though destiny has been determined by God that does not mean that He wants us to sit there and take it.  If this was the case then why is there judgment?  if you have no control over your actions then judgment does not make sense. does it?
my 2 cents


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## stickarts (Jul 25, 2006)

Thats a tough one!  
technically speaking I think the meaning of fate is something beyond your control so you couldn't change something that is truely beyond your control.
I think we have the power of freedom of choice which gives us a tremendous amount of power to alter the course of our lives.
So my answer is: both!
I think some things are inevidable, however, we can drastically alter the course of our lives through our decision making.


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## Kacey (Jul 25, 2006)

Interesting question.  I'm going to start with a definition from Merriam Webster's website:



> Main Entry:	*1fate*
> 
> 
> Pronunciation:	'fAt
> ...


Now, there are a lot of parts to this definition, so I'm going to go through them by the numbers.



> *1* *:* the will or principle or determining cause by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do *: [SIZE=-1]DESTINY[/SIZE]*


*[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

*In the sense given here, of destiny - then yes, I think I do believe in fate.  There is a larger web of interaction between events than most people realize, and all of those together weave into the greater fabric of society.  Each of us, individually and collectively, contribute to and create those events.



> *2 a* *:* an inevitable and often adverse outcome, condition, or end *b* *: [SIZE=-1]DISASTER[/SIZE]*; _especially_ *: [SIZE=-1]DEATH[/SIZE]*


*[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

*In this case... not so much.  I do not think that outcomes are inevitable; else, there would be no free will, and that I don't believe at all.



> *3 a* *:* final outcome *b* *:* the expected result of normal development   <prospective _fate_ of embryonic cells> *c* *:* the circumstances that befall someone or something   <did not know the _fate_ of her former classmates>



This one is an entirely different usage and I have no problems with it.



> *4* _plural_, _capitalized_ *:* the three goddesses who determine the course of human life in classical mythology



Do I think that the Fates exist, the way the ancient Greeks and Romans did?  Not so much... but as I said before, the concept of a complicated fabric of interwoven events that lead to the fabric of society does exist, at least in my opinion.

The synonyms given above would vary along with the opinions given for each definition.

Very interesting topic - thanks!
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## Bigshadow (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't believe in fate.  The influences on our lives are much like the ripples of falling raindrops on a pond.  Some of them we create and others are created by circumstance.  There are only two things that are our fate...  Taxes and death.


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## Gemini (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't believe in fate or destiny. There is only on sure fate. We will die. But during our lives, I think such things are fabrications that we set in our minds so we can have great reasons to succeed or excuses to fail. Though Kacey is absolutely right, we are all intertwined and actions from others will impact us, but do not steer us. We seldom reach the goal that we set out for ourselves. We will all have disappointments and setbacks. We will all find ourselves at the right place at the right time at one or more times in our lives. What we do with those is entirey up to us. We are all accountable for our actions and our reactions throughout. Though we cannot control everything in our lives, the choices we make determine our course. Nothing is it predestined.


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## Elayna (Jul 25, 2006)

"To fate or not to fate that is the question."
~elayna.

I guess i would have to say....I dont believe in the textbook definition of Fate.
I believe, that, we have an ending to our journey that has many different possibilities. All which are seen and known by God.
I believe, in general, that is like have a dice.
There are 6 different posssibilites, and which ever one you get depends on the way you roll, probability and so on.  I think that the choices you make during your life determine how you will end up. Free will.  But I also think that to a certain extent, you are pre-destined to do certain things.  I dont think that you have no control over your destiny or fate.  If you couldnt change the outcome of your life, then what would be the point to living?  I mean when your 13 and your realize, oh wait, no matter what i do, im still going to hell.   Then why not just get it over with now.  Why go through all the pain of life, and all the joys for that matter?
So I say...that you are "fated" to die, but it is the decisions you make throughout your life that will help determine how you die.  Take care of yourself and you most likely wont die of a heart attack.  Dont go down dark allys and you wont die from a mugging.
I know i probably sound all over the place and like i cant decided between one or the other. 
But i believe in "fate" showing you to your true love, and just things being "meant to be".
But I also believe, that we are free creatures and if we kick and scream enough, Fate is nothing but a word.
Anyhooo, hope i made sense. LOL. 
(me and my rambiling again.)
TTYL


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 25, 2006)

Interesting thoughts on this. Keep 'em coming.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 25, 2006)

I dont know.

I've tried changing my circumstances by grabbing hold of them, and wrestling them to the ground to no avail.

I've tried changing my circumstances by relaxing and flowing with them like water.

The first one left me in the same place, tired and used up.

The second one left me in the same place, cold and wet.

I'd like to say we have ultimate control.  But I dont see it.​


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## matt.m (Jul 25, 2006)

You know I think that free will and personal decision making have a tremendous amount to do with what happens to you.

It wasn't fate for me to be disabled at 21, it just happened like that from some of the things that happened to me while in the Marines


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 25, 2006)

It would seem that I frequently find myself encountering viewpoints held by a segment of society that I would politely refer to as overcivilized. They hold that in some mythical "modern world", humankind should not wish to command or exercise power over others, even if only to safeguard themselves. But whether or not humankind should, or should not, wish to , is irrelevant because all that matters is that humankind DOES, and so to my eyes it is foolish and a waste of time to try to tell a person they should not wish to exercise what power they have when the same time would be far better spent teaching them how to use it wisely and well.

I suppose what sets me apart is that what certain groups view as "progressive", "Intellectual", or "Philosophical" thinking, I view as simple cosmic arrogance: In addition to the example above I'm unable to understand how it is that humankind in general keeps deluding itself that by holding up a few colored signs, shouting chants of protest, or writing flowery poetry, propagandist film, or intellectually bankrupt newspieces, that THEY can change the destiny of the world. The world will right ITSELF when it must, and while free will does exist, yet we still each play out the parts Fate has written for us to that end, because doing whatever that is to us, feels like the only "right" thing for us to do. We have been the same and done the same things and been driven by the same human drives since as many millenia back as there have been humans, and so I cannot follow whatever logic it is that appears to make some among our generation feel that somehow THEY are the first to have discovered the right way humans should be *shrug*.

To wish the world were different is a waste of time because the world is what it *is*, just as it always has been and always will be.


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## Ping898 (Jul 25, 2006)

I believe that anything in life can be changed.  I think that some people have a destiny, but that they have to choose to accept it.  I am a catholic and one of the fundamental beliefs of catholics is the belief of free will, that said I think that every life has a purpose, but I also think that your purpose in life cna change over time.  I also think that if it is meant to be it will be, which sounds a lot like fate, but I see it as meaning that although I can make choices and change things in my life, that if something comes around that seems like a once in a lifetime thing, but I don't do it, then the opportunity will present itself again if I was meant to take advantage of it.


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 25, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I dont know.
> 
> I've tried changing my circumstances by grabbing hold of them, and wrestling them to the ground to no avail.
> 
> ...


I've had the same experience which is why I asked. Hence, my statement in the OP:


> we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?


(and no jokes about how lame it is to quote yourself) 

I also find certain "themes" to run in my life. A series of repeated circumstances that are completely out of my control but always revolve around the same issues.


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## michaeledward (Jul 25, 2006)

In keeping with the copyright policy .... I provide this link ... 


http://www.lyricsfreak.com/r/rush/freewill_20119963.html

and a short excerpt ... 

> A planet of playthings
> We dance on the strings
> Of powers we cannot perceive
> The stars arent aligned ---
> ...


But seriously, in America, if you are born in the middle class, you will most likely die in the middle class; if you are born in the lower class, you will die in the lower class. So, while individuals can change, they most often do not change. So, isn't the net result the same?


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## MRE (Jul 25, 2006)

These are interesting thoughts on a topic that, in my opinion, is impossible to answer.  Saying that we have control over our own destiny is assuming that we have control over our own choices.  How do we know for sure that even those choices, that we seem to think are spur of the moment, are not being guided by the collective intelligence, or were not scripted eons ago by an all powerful being.  There is no way to scientifically or philosophically prove this, so I decide to ignore the possibility and assume that I am the master of my future.  Not because I know its right, but because its alot more exciting to me.

So bbblllll (tongue wagging and spit flying everywhere) to fate, the collective intelligence, or the universal script trying to control me.  I bet they didn't know I was going to do that!  Or did they?


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## Bigshadow (Jul 25, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> But seriously, in America, if you are born in the middle class, you will most likely die in the middle class; if you are born in the lower class, you will die in the lower class. So, while individuals can change, they most often do not change. So, isn't the net result the same?



Much like it is our destiny to be a human.  There isn't much we can do about it.   IMHO, it is all relative.


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## rutherford (Jul 25, 2006)

My take of this is that we determine and agree to our fate ourselves.  Some essential part of us does this outside of time and physical existence.

Everything that happens does so exactly the way it is meant to happen.  There are no coincidences.  It can not be changed, and you can be sure there is a lesson in it for you and for those whom your life touches.


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## crushing (Jul 25, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Fate? What a depressing concept, no thanks, I prefer self-determination.
> 
> Lamont


 

Your fate is that you shall forever be doomed to self-determination!  Good _*luck*_ with that!  



I'm with Lamont on this.

Luck is emphasized because I put that right in with fate.


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## Jenna (Jul 25, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> I've had the same experience which is why I asked. Hence, my statement in the OP:
> 
> (and no jokes about how lame it is to quote yourself)
> 
> I also find certain "themes" to run in my life. A series of repeated circumstances that are completely out of my control but always revolve around the same issues.


Hey JT my intriguing friend  see now that is another interesting idea from you.. the repetition of "themes" and I also look at your little signature about slinkies and I wonder is there a sort of spring that would pull us back over and over to a "theme" or scenario .. but that generates twofold issues.. 1). is fate intelligent or are we referring to fate when we should be referring to God (in whatever form you believe) .. the old testament being specifically adamant that the faithful should NOT worship the gods of luck and fate eg. Isiah 65:11 where Troop is that very god.. and 2). why are some of us continually and incessantly sprung back to the same theme.. that is kind of akin to the karmic payback notions.. or maybe "fate" is training us up for something, ha! 

Personally I think fate is a fallback which we call up to attribute blame to for our own failures either of poor planning or lacking foresight or inability to accept the truly chaotic randomness of events. I do not believe in fate.. though predetermination does pose a number of seemingly unanswerable questions like could I opt out of predetermination by either doing nothing or by a decent hara kiri or would that be wholly engulfed by my personal predetermination.. ie... yeah we knew you were gonna do that do yourself.. Too many questions and not enough answers.. always the way I spose.. 

Your thoughts are very interesting JT .. I would be fascinated to know bout the repetitive themes if that was not too personal.. I too have been subject to these same..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## jetboatdeath (Jul 25, 2006)

Fate to me is an excuse.
I crashed my car into a tree must have been fate.
No it was the fact that you were not watching the road.
Sure it seems simple and maybe silly but most excesses are.
What I am saying is that it is easier to blame fate than yourself


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## Cryozombie (Jul 25, 2006)

jetboatdeath said:
			
		

> Fate to me is an excuse.
> I crashed my car into a tree must have been fate.
> No it was the fact that you were not watching the road.
> Sure it seems simple and maybe silly but most excesses are.
> What I am saying is that it is easier to blame fate than yourself


 
So when your company isnt doing well, and decide to cut your department, and you lose your job, thats a choice or decision you made?

When your loved ones die... its your fault for loving them.

There are so many things outside the realm of our control that happen to us...


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## jetboatdeath (Jul 25, 2006)

If your company is not doing well and you loose your job its not fate its economics.
And yea it is some what your choice. You could look for another job as the signs are there that the company is in trouble.
I face the same thing in my job; they let two managers go in my department. Not a good sign but I choose not to look for a new job even though I know more cuts are coming.
Fate has nothing to do with love.

Yea there are many things that happen to us that we cant control, but they are not fate. 
Driving home tonight I could get hit by another car. Is it my fault no, but there is a reason that it happened not fate.

Why dont people ever say fate made me the CEO of so and so company? Fate is always used to describe the bad things that happen. Hard work, daddy having a bank roll, good education things like that makes you a CEO.

Im **** poor. Is it fate that keeps me poor nope, its my spending habits. I have a lot of cool stuff but no money.


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## Gemini (Jul 25, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> So when your company isnt doing well, and decide to cut your department, and you lose your job, thats a choice or decision you made?
> 
> When your loved ones die... its your fault for loving them.
> 
> There are so many things outside the realm of our control that happen to us...


Do we not all love someone? Do we not all die? It is inevitable someone will suffer with the passing. But how you react to it is your choice. I'm not referring to your inital reaction. I'm referring to your long term one. Things happen out of the realm of our control everyday. Reset your base point and set your destination. I'm in no way belittling your point. The pain of such things can be intolerable. But it isn't fate.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 25, 2006)

jetboatdeath said:
			
		

> Is it fate that keeps me poor


 
No its your wife.


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## mrhnau (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't think so... in retrospect, one can always say it was fate. That is really the only way to observe fate in my opinion... you lose your job, it was fate. keep it, it was fate... Is fate simply a way of not having to face responsibility for the decisions we make or the life choices presented to us?


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## Elayna (Jul 25, 2006)

I do agree that the concept of something like Fate is a huge one.  We will never know if we are right or wrong, because the only time you will know is if !. you talk to God and live through it, or 2. You die.For me I guess the point is...I believe that you can change that around you. You cant change every person everywhere, but you can change things.  And, if you have enough gumption you could change something that will change this world forever.  Just like the wonderful people who gave us America, civil rights, and women rights. Just to list a few.   Now some could say this is Fate, but again I dont know. I choose to believe in a little bit of both.  That i have a choice of what I do, but that there is still someone looking down, nudging me in the right directions so I dont go and tottaly screw up my life.  And all that I can hope for is that I am a person that makes a difference to someone.  May it be my son, my husband, or the whole world...who knows.Human emotions cant be changed, but human reactions can.BTW...How many flowers should I have on my rioting sign for tomorrow??   LOL LOL. TTYL


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 26, 2006)

A clarification. When I use the term fate, I am not talking about God. I am a Christian and I believe in God. I am talking about the ability to fight your way out of your lot in life. Can you really change it? Or are we destined to a path that will make our attempts at changing our lives fail or succeed? What if you keep trying your best at something and find, as Jenna pointed out about slinkies and springs, that no matter how hard you try, you are constantly sprung back to your place. 

And what about "themes" in our lives that occur again and again outside of our control. And I'm not referring to financial issues, or classes, though for some that might apply. 

For example, let's say as a child, your mother or father was an alcoholic. You vow never to become one yourself or have anything to do with alcohol. Then as you grow up, you find person after person enters your life with alcohol problems. Say your best friend grows up to be an alcoholic. You can't control them. You didn't choose them as your best friend in 3rd grade or whatever knowing they would become an alcoholic when they grew up. Say your cousin was hit by a drunk driver and your child begins drinking at a young age. Say you find out your spouse, whom you thought was a teetotaler upon marrying hides a secret addiction. 

None of those things are in your control. But no matter what you do, you cannot seem to get out of your life being touched by alcohol abuse. You may even start to drink yourself just because of the stress of it all. Telling yourself if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. 

So on one hand, you made that decision. On the other hand, was your fate in life to become an alcoholic yourself, or to have a life affected by alcohol in some way, shape, or form? 

This is not my own experience, and may not be the best example, but it was the only parellel I could think of this morning to try and make my point about "themes" 

Jenna  - I would be happy to share more with you. Shoot me a PM or e-mail.


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## Gemini (Jul 26, 2006)

I think we all have paths that are easier to walk, (gullies, if you will) but untimately, it's our own decision on whether or not we walk these paths. Some will say, this is the only path, while others will say it's not the path I'm going to take and continue to change it. Will you always succeed? No. But you won't always fail either. How bad do you want it? What are you willing to do to change it. You analogy itself shows the ability for one to make choices. We always have them. Sometimes the choices are between bad and worse, but they're there none the less. For myself, I've had wins and losses just like everyone else. I've made some poor choices and I've made some good ones. But they were always mine. Fate, in my mind, is the explanation one gives to ones self when they get tired of trying. Our courses change and are impacted from outside sources all throughout our lifes. But ultimately it's you who must decide if your going to steer the ship or ride the tide. I've had times in my life that I've given up. But I've never looked for another explanation than what it was. Me, not fate.


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## hemi (Jul 26, 2006)

Well this is a topic I havent put much thought into but here is my take on fate and destiny.  Since God ultimately has a mission or reason for each of us being here you will at some point fulfill the mission God placed you here to partake. But Since God is omnipresent (What a concept) to be every where and in every time line across every dimension as others have said before me God knows what has happened and what will happen but this can be changed through prayer. Also God has given us free will so that is where I think fate plays a part in our lives. Yes each of us will do what it ultimately required of us by God but the path we take in doing so seems to be for the most part up to us. I think that every choice we make on the surface looks like a simple this or that, or even yes or no. But every choice we make has long reaching consequences. Take for instance the choice to have kids or not, to continue your education and get a degree or not. Enter the door on the left or the door on the right. Every choice leads to a different road with ultimately one outcome in the end.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 26, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> This is not my own experience, and may not be the best example, but it was the only parellel I could think of this morning to try and make my point about "themes"


Or how about the son who's father never was around when he was growing up and when he was, never wanted his son around and would scold him and send him away for just wanting to sit and watch father. As far back as the son can remember he had no quality time with his father.  As this son grew older without any guidance or attention from his father, he swore he would never be like his father.  

Years later when his son was born, keeping his promise to himself, he forced himself to not be like his father.  By not having a father role model in his life it was difficult, and at times he feared he was too much like his father.  Through courage, perseverence, and support from his family he didn't turn out like his father, he is a positive role model for his son; He broke the cycle and now his son won't have to deal with that legacy.

:asian:


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 26, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Or how about the son who's father never was around when he was growing up and when he was, never wanted his son around and would scold him and send him away for just wanting to sit and watch father. As far back as the son can remember he had no quality time with his father.  As this son grew older without any guidance or attention from his father, he swore he would never be like his father.
> 
> Years later when his son was born, keeping his promise to himself, he forced himself to not be like his father.  By not having a father role model in his life it was difficult, and at times he feared he was too much like his father.  Through courage, perseverence, and support from his family he didn't turn out like his father, he is a positive role model for his son; He broke the cycle and now his son won't have to deal with that legacy.
> 
> :asian:


Good analogy. Was it the man's *fate* to be the one who breaks the cycle of abandonment? 

Or what if even though he broke the cycle for his son, what if his life consisted of other people constantly abandoning him in various situations? No matter how hard he tries, no matter how careful he is with trust, people keep abandoning him. What if as he's growing up the people he thought were his friends ditch him all the time, as an adult the company he works for moves and does not have need for him to transfer, not to mention his friends constantly get together and forget to call him. Then, in spite of his  overcoming all of these trials, and through hard work and determinatioin not to be that kind of person, thereby giving his son the stability he never had, alas, his wife leaves him. 

Was it his fate to live a life of abandonment? 

What about this one?

Suppose a young girl is molested by her father and no one ever finds out about it. Suppose she is also molested by a neighbor, and no one ever finds out about it. Then as she becomes a teenager, she is raped by a stranger. Then as an adult perhaps raped by a date, whom she may have known for some time and trusted to go out with. Then say she falls in love with someone who makes her feel safe and loved. She trusts him completely and all is well, until their child is born. At which point the child is molested by the father. This time the mother finds out about it and is shattered.

Is it the woman's *fate* that she will forever be followed in life by occurances of sexual abuse, all of which were out of her control? 

She can make a choice now. She can now divorce her husband. But the damage to her child has already been done. It just seems like sexual abuses follow her wherever she goes.


This is what I mean by a theme. It's things that follow YOU, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how much you can change things for the next person, you feel destined to a life of alcoholism, abandonment, sexual abuse, or whatever the situation may be, and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try to change things, it just never seems to happen and the same theme haunts you your entire life.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 26, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> This is what I mean by a theme. It's things that follow YOU, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how much you can change things for the next person, you feel destined to a life of alcoholism, abandonment, sexual abuse, or whatever the situation may be, and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try to change things, it just never seems to happen and the same theme haunts you your entire life.



I understand what you are saying...


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## hemi (Jul 26, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> This is what I mean by a theme. It's things that follow YOU, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how much you can change things for the next person, you feel destined to a life of alcoholism, abandonment, sexual abuse, or whatever the situation may be, and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try to change things, it just never seems to happen and the same theme haunts you your entire life.


 


Looking at this last part of what you wrote, I think one would have to be careful in this kind of thinking. What I mean by that Ill use myself as an example. First a little history on me.  I face certain challenges in my life that have plagued me my entire life. I have terrible penmanship, I am horrible at spelling, and math kills me. This is not due to fate, nor is it my destiny to never be good at spelling, or to improve my handwriting. I have a learning disability called Dyslexia. Back when I was in hell or as most people call it High School at that time schools and most teachers had no idea what Dyslexia was or how to teach kids with this problem. I was just labeled as stupid, and pretty much ignored by teacher after teacher and passed to the next grade so I could become someone elses problem. As time or I should say years went by I found my self as a SR. in a freshmen algebra class. I looked at one of the problems and didnt know what 2. 3 was so I raised my hand. The teacher asked what I wanted and I asked what is the ( . )? Well everyone in the class busted out laughing since they thought I was giving the teacher a hard time. At that point I was sent to the office and was written up. When I finally did talk to the principle I explained what happened and he gave me detention and told to go back to class. As I was leaving the principles office I told him  I still do not know that the dot was I think it was then that he realized I was not screwing around but reaching for a hand and getting slapped in the face. 

Sorry I went way off topic but I wanted to give the reader a little insight into some of what I faced in growing up and to help get my point across in what I am about to write. Since I have had, and do have a hard time learning things (Kenpo) included I have to work real hard to retain information I am given. I have learned to deal with this fact and not take the easy road and say I give up its my fate or destiny to just be this way. Some things can be overcome with enough determination. I was told back in the day I could be exempt from the TAAS test that TX students had to pass to graduate high school. Well I was unwilling to accept that. I worked real hard my entire senior year after school and passed all three parts of the test. I could have taken the easy road but I worked and improved my reading, math and reading comprehension. 

When you talk about some one being abused as a kid, then entering an abusive relation ship as an adult. That also would not be fate; I think that a person most probably has mental issues that need to be worked out. The scars people receive as children re surface to cause like tendencies as adults. I am not a shrink but after reading books, and seeing enough shrinks as a kid, myself that seems to be the running theme in medical  social circles. 

Another instance would be since I do not have a degree per all the media I am doomed to never make what some one with a degree could make. On TV and radio they throw out all these numbers that the Have will make Vs the Have knots. 
One could easily say its my fate to never really make a good living since I am not degreed. But there again it comes down to choice if I would make the choice to work very hard and take all the remedial class I would be forced to take to gain entry into a college. I could attain a degree there by proving it is not fate but choice that determines many factors in life.    

But again that is just the opinion of an old dyslexic Redneck.


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## mantis (Jul 27, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Fate?  What a depressing concept, no thanks, I prefer self-determination.
> 
> Lamont


Hey, just a thought for you.  Last night I experienced serious pain in the lower part of my stomach and I felt a lump or a little tumor you can say (with other symptoms that are similar to testicular cancer).  I am only 24 years old.  I want you to tell me what it means to "prefer self-determination" if this tumor was cancerous!  
I had this thought as soon as i felt the tumor. I said I want to see what this guy would say if he experienced the same. 

That, my friend, is fate!


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## Blindside (Jul 27, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> Hey, just a thought for you. Last night I experienced serious pain in the lower part of my stomach and I felt a lump or a little tumor you can say (with other symptoms that are similar to testicular cancer). I am only 24 years old. I want you to tell me what it means to "prefer self-determination" if this tumor was cancerous!
> I had this thought as soon as i felt the tumor. I said I want to see what this guy would say if he experienced the same.
> 
> That, my friend, is fate!


 
Fate tends to imply that there is some guiding force or reason behind an event in your life.  I do not consider it "fate" that you, me, or my wife are going to die.  Everyone dies, the hows and whys might be different, but you are implying that there is some reason behind death.  The term "fate" comes from the old gods, are you saying the reason behind a possible cancer is that Lachesis measured your thread that long?  By self-determination I am saying that I have some measure of control over my life, that there is no magical influence that pushes me in certain directions.  Can random stuff happen to us that we have absolutely no control over?  Yup, but is THAT fate?  Nope, it is just random events.  

I'm sorry about your (possible) condition, but do you believe that some outside force caused it?  That god caused this to happen to teach you some lesson?

Lamont


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## mantis (Jul 27, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Fate tends to imply that there is some guiding force or reason behind an event in your life. I do not consider it "fate" that you, me, or my wife are going to die. Everyone dies, the hows and whys might be different, but you are implying that there is some reason behind death. The term "fate" comes from the old gods, are you saying the reason behind a possible cancer is that Lachesis measured your thread that long? By self-determination I am saying that I have some measure of control over my life, that there is no magical influence that pushes me in certain directions. Can random stuff happen to us that we have absolutely no control over? Yup, but is THAT fate? Nope, it is just random events.
> 
> I'm sorry about your (possible) condition, but do you believe that some outside force caused it? That god caused this to happen to teach you some lesson?
> 
> Lamont


maybe that's what im saying, or maybe not.  but what i wanted to say is there is no such thing as "i control my destiny".   Humans can get really arrogant but in reality they are extremely weak.  A small little germ can put a human in bed for so long, maybe for the human's entire life. 
Whether you believe it's from 'nature' or from God that's up to you, but it is still 'fate' that you have no control over it no matter  how smart or strong you think you are. 

Fate is not necessarily a 'magical' thing.  Waking up at 5:03 am in the morning to jog while your neighbor happens to be pulling out going to work at the same moment and hit you with his car is not a magical thing.  But fate is an arrangement of natural events that result in something out of your control and affect you directly.  Religious people will tell you that since everything in nature is controlled by God then this sequence or arrangement of events is also controlled by God.


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## Blindside (Jul 27, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> maybe that's what im saying, or maybe not. but what i wanted to say is there is no such thing as "i control my destiny". Humans can get really arrogant but in reality they are extremely weak. A small little germ can put a human in bed for so long, maybe for the human's entire life.
> Whether you believe it's from 'nature' or from God that's up to you, but it is still 'fate' that you have no control over it no matter how smart or strong you think you are.
> 
> Fate is not necessarily a 'magical' thing. Waking up at 5:03 am in the morning to jog while your neighbor happens to be pulling out going to work at the same moment and hit you with his car is not a magical thing. But fate is an arrangement of natural events that result in something out of your control and affect you directly. Religious people will tell you that since everything in nature is controlled by God then this sequence or arrangement of events is also controlled by God.


 
But why term the events that happen to you as "fate."  Again, that term implies a destiny.  Perhaps I should rephrase my initial statement to something like:

"What happens to a person in their life is the net result of some combination of their choices and the random **** that happens to them."


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## mantis (Jul 27, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> But why term the events that happen to you as "fate." Again, that term implies a destiny. Perhaps I should rephrase my initial statement to something like:
> 
> "What happens to a person in their life is the net result of some combination of their choices and the random **** that happens to them."


because to people of faith those events are predetermined.  I'll say you're right if you say not everyone has a faith.  Got your point.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 28, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?




No, I don't believe it...but I could be wrong.

The problem I have with the notion of destiny is that it becomes a very easy trap for a person to fall into and whereby we can rationalize our successes and failures.

"It was just meant to be" in explaining the death of a child overlooks the doctor's or the parent's error.  "This is my lot in life" becomes the excuse for not overcoming our fears, working for a formal education, and getting out of the factory.  "Its our destiny" turns into the very silly litany of young people everywhere who are certain they've found their soul-mate...only to find out their little love-biscuit is actually a raging co-dependent with control issues that make a Calvinist look tepid in nature.

Now, granted, someone working through their karma is trying to avoid this trap and take personal responsibility for their life and actions...but as I've shown above the phrases are reflective of a hand-wringing "woe is me" jeremiad that pervades our country.  Unless, of course, we win the lottery...at which point the reverse of the process takes place and we've been blessed by God/fate/Lady Luck/(insert supernatural causation here).

I tend to believe in probabilities, allowing for that rare anomaly and fully recognizing cause and effect.  Hard work might...or might not...improve our lot in life.  We can not realistically say "anything is possible!" when addressing our aspirations.  Some of us, for all our dreams and efforts, will never break the four minute mile or make a million dollars.

I suspect I will be tempted to believe otherwise if my life goes downhill, and I might say "Why me?"  The question is rhetorical, directed at the heartless Gods as well as to no one in particular.  If wisdom prevails I can look at everyone else and accept "why NOT me?"  I'm not special.  I'll lose loved ones.  I'll get sick.  I'll fail at something...as does everyone else.  I'll also probably use the word "luck" in casual conversation, and flippantly say things like "The Gods smiled on thee."  It is too much effort not to.

I'll end this with a poem by Edwin Arlington Robinson (Mods note:  This is public domain).  It is darkly existential, brutally candid, and speaks to those of us who no longer believe in fate and blessings or the gifts of the divine.  It also speaks to those who do.


WHENEVER Richard Cory went down town,	 
  We people on the pavement looked at him:	 
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,	 
  Clean favored, and imperially slim.	 

And he was always quietly arrayed,	         
  And he was always human when he talked;	 
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,	 
  "Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.	 
And he was richyes, richer than a king,	 
  And admirably schooled in every grace:	  
In fine, we thought that he was everything	 
  To make us wish that we were in his place.	 

So on we worked, and waited for the light,	 
  And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;	 
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,	  
  Went home and put a bullet through his head.


Regards,

Steve


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## Raewyn (Jul 28, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> This is what I mean by a theme. It's things that follow YOU, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how much you can change things for the next person, you feel destined to a life of alcoholism, abandonment, sexual abuse, or whatever the situation may be, and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try to change things, it just never seems to happen and the same theme haunts you your entire life.


 
I think we are in control of our lives to a certain degree and unfortunately bad stuff happens.  We have to roll with the punches.  I dont fully understand why certain themes follow people around - maybe its pychological and we  unintenionally  are attracted to those or befriend those who we know possibly deep down could hurt us. Ive heard stories of some of those people who have managed to pick themselves up and change what fate has thrown at them.  I guess some of the stuff that fate throws at us we cannot dodge.  Very tricky question.


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## jazkiljok (Aug 11, 2006)

So, I was talking to God the other day and he says to me I just knew you were going to bring this up. and I said, --well yeah, I bet --maybe You should have done something to stop me before I did and He says- like what? - And I say, how should I know? Youre God! And He saysquit being so concerned about your fate and worry about that parking meter running out. And I says- you got to be kidding me, Im wondering about the existential dilemma of knowing that my lifes course is predetermined and yet being of free will Im suppose to have the power to set any course I decide on and all You can bring up is that Im about to get a parking ticket?!

Then He pauses I dont say anything for a minute, I look at the parking meter, He still hasnt said anything I wait a little longer nothing but silence. 

Damn, I dash to the meter and put a coin in before the time runs out.

I can hear him clearly chuckling in the background.


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## donna (Aug 11, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> My take of this is that we determine and agree to our fate ourselves. Some essential part of us does this outside of time and physical existence.
> 
> Everything that happens does so exactly the way it is meant to happen. There are no coincidences. It can not be changed, and you can be sure there is a lesson in it for you and for those whom your life touches.


 
I tend to agree with this. and it brings to mind the last part of Desiderata where it says:



You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. 


Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. 
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 11, 2006)

_...
I can hear him clearly chuckling in the background._

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - God, to Bender


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _..._
> "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - God, to Bender


 
:asian:


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## JasonASmith (Aug 12, 2006)

This is one of the BIG questions that I have kicked around in my head for the past 15 years...I have been introduced to the theory of pre-destination(grew up in a strict Christian environment), however I have often wondered about it...It seems to make sense on some(overtly Christian) levels, but it IS rather confining...I was always raised with the belief that YOU control your present.  And if you have control of your present, then, technically, you SHOULD have SOME control over your future...
If you have enough control over yourself in the present, then you SHOULD be able to adapt when the future throws you the inevitable curve, and steer your course back to path that you have selected...So I guess that means that you DO have control of your own fate, but you have to know your path in life and what it entails first...:idunno: 
In other words, it all comes down to YOU, and what you believe in/want from your life...


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## pstarr (Aug 12, 2006)

I believe that some people (not every person) is driven to do certain things...Mozart was driven to music, and so on.  I don't believe in predestination; hence, I don't believe in "fate" because that would seem to nullify our "free will."

But we CAN be "nudged."  Some people HAVE to practice martial arts.  Some HAVE to teach.  They couldn't quit these things any more than they could quit breathing.

WHY it is, I don't know.  I just know that it is.


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## heretic888 (Aug 12, 2006)

Personally, I believe the concept of "faith" or "destiny", at least as they are commonly understood, were developed for the sole purpose of keeping the lower classes in their place in society. The nobles didn't want those stinky peasants thinking they could run the show or anything, so therefore they were "destined" to be poor.

It is not coincidental that these ideas kind of got kicked to curb (except in the minds of a few fringe fundamentalist groups) once the West got around to developing democratic governments and burgeoning middle classes.

Laterz.


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## chris_&#3617;&#3623;&#3618;&#3652;&#3607;&#3618; (Aug 13, 2006)

i believe that "fate" is just a word that people use to describe what happens in the "end" , i dont believe there is an end , only life , and if we reach "fate" or "death" we live again , possobly not as a human (known as reincarnatoin) , and the "spiritual theory" is that if we lead and honest , noble , modest , caring , good life as a human , we have reached the "end" and and have reached our "fate" , a spirit of complete harmony , "heaven" , so that if we try hard , very hard to be good people , we reach "fate" , so therefore i wouldent say that fate is death , because i dont believe death to be the end

all paople have their own choices , they can choose to be good people in this life , or they can be bad people and "prolong the inevitible" and wait longer for "fate" to show its face

hope you enjoyed reading my opinion

chris


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?


 
I believe in fate..I dont think every min is planed, but i believe we are meant to learn certain things, have certain experiences.

Often people have 'themes' following them around because they are just not getting the message. The same message will keep coming along, it may just be wearing different pants...and this will happen again and again until you get it, until you learn what you need to learn.

Also sometimes we are meant to have bad things happen so we can learn and influence others.

I am happy believing in fate, it&#8217;s comforting to know that things happen for a reason because the alternative is just to damn depressing.

But saying that, i dont think fate controlls how we live our lives, that is our own choose...however the lessons we need to learn will come to us if we are rich or poor, happy or angry...how we deal with it and wether we choose to learn a lesson from it is totally up to us.


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 17, 2006)

I like to think of "fate" as us all floating in a river. All of our circumstances determine how strongly the current pulls us along. Our genetics, our upbringing, our parents decisions, the decisions of others that have an influence on us all push us downstream to whatever destination awaits us. As we get older its our own decisions that allow us to swim across the current so we can get out at a point more to our choosing. If along the way we push other people under, I would like to think that the shore we land on wont be too pleasant. But I do think we all have some element of self-determinism available to us. Those who feel like they are not making any headway just have to keep on swimming (swimming...swimming...just keep swimming...) perhaps your decisions/actions are only just doggie paddles when you need to start a nice strong breast stroke. One thing is certain though, if you just give up and let the current take you, you might as well put your head under the waves and take a deep breath.


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## Flatlander (Aug 18, 2006)

I believe that all things are the result of causes and conditions, and are in a state of constant change.  I believe that we all have the ability to influence our 'nowness' by how we percieve it, and the ability to influence our future by the choices that we make.  However, I do not believe that at any point we 'control' our circumstances or future, as the rest of the world will continue to do the thing that it does, impacting our reality in ways beyond our control.

Having said that, I think that the notion of fate implies that there is going to be a predetermined certainty as to the individual occurences and happenings of events, and I cannot reconcile this notion with our freedom of choice.

However, are we destined to some absolutes?  Currently, yes.  We will age, we will die, the sun will explode.  These things are largely inescapable.


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## samurai69 (Aug 18, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?


 
I think we are destined to pass certain points on our map of life we just get to choose the route (and can change the direction - get lost - re route etc).

eg, i was always ment to be in the work that i do, i had 3 opportunities to pass along that route, before i chose one and it may have presented itself one or two more times again after

.


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 18, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?



You can work, strive, do everything with the best intents, plan meticulously and still fate will put a boot where the sun don't shine.  I believe we are destined to thrive, or destined to suffer and there isn't a thing we can do about it.


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Do you believe in fate, or destiny? Are you set on a certain track in life? Can it be changed? Or are you *destined* to your fate in an unchangeable way. By that I mean, we can try to make changes in our lives, we can be proactive and do this, or do that. But will destiny always bring us back to our fate by determining the success, or failure, of those attempts?


 
It's quite the conundrum,especially if one believes in such a thing as "destiny,"as I do so I might not be particularly lucid here.

Take me as an example-I spent a huge chunk of my early years with doctors telling me it was my "fate" to die before I reached-well, a variety of ages through the years, with the upper limit finally reaching my teens (after I'd surpassed all the others) and my finally just not listening to them any more. Was it my fate to die young? Obviously not, but what if it was my fate to stubbornly go on living and getting stroger _because_ I was told  that?  A huge combination of factors went into my actually becoming "well," and stong-I had some wonderful teachers through the years, and parents who supported me-was it fate that I met those people, or that my parents had a child with challenges, and had the right attitude for those challenges? I couldn't say. One of my teachers-for a very short time-was a famous vaudeville strongman. I first saw him on the "Joe Franklin Show" (showing my age , again) and talked about  him at karate class that week-I was about 12 at the time. Turned out, my teacher had been his neighbor at one time, and asked if I wanted to meet him-was that fate?

On the other hand, the things you speak of-well-I guess it's a matter of belief more than anything else-*and* will. I tend to feel (because one certainly can't spend too much time "thinking" about these things) that it's _both_ free will and fate that determine much of how our lives turn out.  I've known too many people who overcame "the cards they were dealt" through their will-and a little luck, or "fate"-and we all know of far too many who have "succumbed to their fate." No to mention the people whose lives are invariably changed by a stroke of unforeseen "luck," not good and bad. In the end, though, I guess the only advice I'd offer anyone pondering this is to stick with the will, and leave fate to the universe-if that bus out there has your name on it, there's little to be done about it but what you're doing in the meantime, so you might as well be exercising your will, or at least  trying to.


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## heretic888 (Aug 19, 2006)

I think it's well established that individuals may be born into environmental conditions or inherit certain qualities (both genetic and epigenetic) that they have little or no control over.

But, what I find personally curious is the number of people that feel the need to appeal to (or is that invent?) supernatural explanations for these causal factors. In other words, when the son of an alcoholic mother raised in a low-income, high-violence community lives a life of struggle and conflict, it is not because he was the son of an alcholic that lived in terrible circumstances. No, it's because some supernatural Other (however so defined) has "lessons" for him to learn. Obviously.

And, of course, the sons and daughters of the rich, non-alcoholic parents had apparently already learned all the "lessons" they needed to learn in the womb. Obviously.

People, please. Let's be rational here. There is no need to appeal to "God" or "fate" or "karma" or whatever when there are perfectly obvious and perfectly natural explanations for why these things happen. Alcholism exists. Poverty exists. Depression exists. Genetic disorders exist. War exists. Crime exists. 

After all, life sucks --- that's the First Noble Truth of Buddhism. There's plenty of examples that attest to this.

There's some stuff you don't have much control over, unfortunately enough. However, there's plenty enough that you can do something about. Don't buy into this nonsense. Ideas like "fate" and "destiny" were not invented to help you understand things, they were invented to keep you in line. C'mon, you're better than that.

Oh, and contrary to what another posted stated, the "alternative" is infinitely better than this defeatist self-victimization ideology.

Laterz.


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## elder999 (Aug 19, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I But, what I find personally curious is the number of people that feel the need to appeal to (or is that invent?) supernatural explanations for these causal factors. In other words, when the son of an alcoholic mother raised in a low-income, high-violence community lives a life of struggle and conflict, it is not because he was the son of an alcholic that lived in terrible circumstances. No, it's because some supernatural Other (however so defined) has "lessons" for him to learn. Obviously.


 
While we're agreed in principle, I don't necessarily think that's what's meant by some here.



			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> There's some stuff you don't have much control over, unfortunately enough. However, there's plenty enough that you can do something about. Don't buy into this nonsense. Ideas like "fate" and "destiny" were not invented to help you understand things, they were invented to keep you in line. C'mon, you're better than that.
> 
> Oh, and contrary to what another posted stated, the "alternative" is infinitely better than this defeatist self-victimization ideology.
> 
> Laterz.


 
I don't think ideas like "fate" and "destiny" necessarily mean the same things for some of us-I know they don't for *me*. I don't think there's anything supernatural involved-it's more of a case of taking a left turn or a right-left leads to lunch with your sweetheart, and right (maybe to pick up some flowers for your sweetheart first) leads to a collision with a cement truck.


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 19, 2006)

"Twenties: Start life, start a career, play more, gather some conquests and* become rather obnoxious and self-righteous about all that one knows*" -Shesulsa


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## heretic888 (Aug 20, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> "Twenties: Start life, start a career, play more, gather some conquests and* become rather obnoxious and self-righteous about all that one knows*" -Shesulsa


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## heretic888 (Aug 20, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> While we're agreed in principle, I don't necessarily think that's what's meant by some here.


 
Well, in all fairness, my post wasn't directed to _everybody_ on the thread, but there were some in particular that stood out. . .


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