# O.K.. Gotta ask...Stephen K Hayes?



## Cruentus (May 26, 2004)

There has been a few things here on MT regarding Stephen K Hayes.

So...I have to ask the ninjitsu enthusiasts here.

What are your opinions of him?

Thanks!


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## Tgace (May 26, 2004)

One of my original MA idols in the 80's when I was a teen...ahh the days/and nights of running around the neighborhood in black (w/tabi) doing all the "ninja" stuff that I now try to prevent as a LEO (funny how life works aint it?). Good or Bad, SKH put ninjutsu on the US map back in the day.....


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## Cruentus (May 26, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> One of my original MA idols in the 80's when I was a teen...ahh the days/and nights of running around the neighborhood in black (w/tabi) doing all the "ninja" stuff that I now try to prevent as a LEO (funny how life works aint it?). Good or Bad, SKH put ninjutsu on the US map back in the day.....



He, he. You ran around in Ninja garb too, eh?  :ninja: Glad I am not alone there. I still have a few of his books from when I was a kid.   

Despite that, and the fact that he put Ninjitsu on the map in the U.S., I really know little about him.


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## Tgace (May 26, 2004)

Id tell some of the stories about Paul M. and I "back in the day", but the statute of limitations may not be up on some of them...


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## Tgace (May 26, 2004)

From what little I know, if you buy Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage in Ninjutsu than SKH should be OK. He seems to be making his own way lately with this "Quest" stuff. I dont know if its ninjutsu repackaged or something of his own. Havent seen him in print, or in the mag's to any large extent lately.


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## Cryozombie (May 26, 2004)

I'll tell ya...

As much as I feel that he has watered down ninjutsu for the purpose of profiting off of it, and his Quest curriculum, what I have seen of the man seems like he himself knows his stuff... AND...

I have to give him a lot of credit for opening the art up to the rest of the world, I don't think it would have spread as fast or as well without his efforts.

It's unfortunate that now it seems (to an outsider) that he is all about the $$ and not the art anylonger.


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## MJS (May 26, 2004)

I've read a few of his books.  IMO, he knows his stuff and was one of the main people to expose Ninjutsu to the US.  

As for his 'brand' of Ninjutsu....looks pretty good to me.  Seems like he took the more traditional stuff and improved on it.  If you look at his site, he still offers the trad. aspect, but it definately appears to be more modernized.  Seems like he's following in the footsteps of what Robert Bussey did a long time ago.

Mike


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## MJS (May 26, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> As much as I feel that he has watered down ninjutsu for the purpose of profiting off of it, and his Quest curriculum, what I have seen of the man seems like he himself knows his stuff...



Why do you think its watered down??  To me it seems like he made it better.

Mike


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## Cryozombie (May 26, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Why do you think its watered down??  To me it seems like he made it better.
> 
> Mike



What I have heard from some of his Shadows of Iga Insructors who left when he created Quest was that the reason they did so was, he was going to TKD schools, asking if they wanted to Teach "Authentic Ninjutsu" and then spending 6 weeks teaching them to be Ninjutsu instructors, and then allowing them to teach Ninjutsu.

If all it takes is 6 weeks, Id be a master already. It sounds watered down to me.


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## Cryozombie (May 26, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Seems like he's following in the footsteps of what Robert Bussey did a long time ago.
> 
> Mike



I may be wrong but didn't Robert Bussey leave the Bujinkan for Religious reasons?


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## MJS (May 26, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> What I have heard from some of his Shadows of Iga Insructors who left when he created Quest was that the reason they did so was, he was going to TKD schools, asking if they wanted to Teach "Authentic Ninjutsu" and then spending 6 weeks teaching them to be Ninjutsu instructors, and then allowing them to teach Ninjutsu.
> 
> If all it takes is 6 weeks, Id be a master already. It sounds watered down to me.



Wow!  Never heard about that one.  I know that he has alot of schools, but I never thought that he resort to doing something like that.  Then again, could these students just be talking bad about him?  

6 weeks??? Damn!!!

Mike


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## MJS (May 26, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I may be wrong but didn't Robert Bussey leave the Bujinkan for Religious reasons?



Not sure.  It seemed like he wasnt into certain meditation things that they were doing.  Maybe that was one of the reasons. I have read that when he opened his own schools, he eliminated much of that.  

Mike


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## Cruentus (May 26, 2004)

So, both Bussey and Hayes are from the Bujinkan (I knew about Hayes, but not Bussey), but the question is, where are they in comparison to some of the others from Bujinkan who would be considered high level?


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## MJS (May 26, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> So, both Bussey and Hayes are from the Bujinkan (I knew about Hayes, but not Bussey), but the question is, where are they in comparison to some of the others from Bujinkan who would be considered high level?



I would have to say that Hayes is higher ranked and is still somewhat involved in his training with Hatsumi.  As for Bussey...he seems like hes out of the loop and is doing his own thing with his new org.

Mike


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## arnisador (May 26, 2004)

Robert Bussey:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9871

SKH:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69

Searching will turn up more.


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## Cryozombie (May 26, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Wow!  Never heard about that one.  I know that he has alot of schools, but I never thought that he resort to doing something like that.  Then again, could these students just be talking bad about him?
> 
> 6 weeks??? Damn!!!
> 
> Mike



I dont know, but the one still says good things about his abilities and goes to his seminars, for whatever that is worth...  Like I said, I did hear that information word of mouth so don't take it as Law.  I did see his seminar flyer that wanted a (crud I forget the exact amount) $35.00(?) Fee for attending his book signing and autograph session.


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## Cryozombie (May 26, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> So, both Bussey and Hayes are from the Bujinkan (I knew about Hayes, but not Bussey), but the question is, where are they in comparison to some of the others from Bujinkan who would be considered high level?



Well... to be fair, I dont think you can judge an Art like that... Hayes may be better than say, (and I am randomly using names, none of this is "real" informaton) Ed Sones, but worse than Doron Navone... but would that prove his branch is better or worse? Or only that he himself is better than student A, but not Student B?


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## r.severe (May 26, 2004)

Hayes shihan is one of the best if not the best over all leaders, knowledgeable students, teachers, etc. of the traditional and modern Bujinkan arts in the world living.

I don't believe from what I have experienced that he has watered down anything. I feel he teaches the arts as he feels they should be trained at the levels of his followers. This might seem watered down to someone without knowledge of the arts first hand experience in them, say 5 to 6 years or more.

If he was in Dallas Texico I would be a student of his in a second.
I feel he has a great deal to offer.

As for R Bussey.... he is by far no where near the knowledge or experience as Hayes shihan in the Bujinkan arts. He is skilled form what I have seen on his tapes. But skilled at what? Good question. I believe it was basic Togakure ryu and Hapkido mix.. but by far anything mid level of advanced as far as Bujinkan arts go.

These are just my opinions..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Tgace (May 26, 2004)

Now, I dont study ninjutsu (would like to) but have followed it since the 80's...I seem to recall there being some sort of controversy over SKH's use of "earth, wind, water, fire, void" approcah to teaching the art. Something about that being his invention but passing it off as part of his original teaching?? Am I remembering that right?


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## Genin Andrew (May 26, 2004)

I have read two of Hayes'  books and once you get over the fact he is an american ninja i found alot of truth in what he says and like someone mentioned eralier he "knows his stuff" as for the elements and the void stuff that is described in his book "Ninja:And their secret fighting art" but i'm not sure whether its traditional teachings or his own input...not sure whether anyone can capitalise on that?:asian:


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## loki09789 (May 26, 2004)

Tom might remember a local student of Hayes (Dave Geary) who worked out with us when the commercial school was up and also came to some of Jerome's stuff. Dave trained regularly and made the monthly trip to work with SKH directly for 4-8 hours at a shot for years.

If he, as a student, is an example of what SKH can do himself as well as a product of his instruction then he is good, VERY good at his art and as a teacher. My problem with some of this 'public shadow warrior' business is that so much of Ninjutsu historically had more to do with intelligence/espionage/assasination/spec ops skills than simply using weapons and empty hand techniques. Either as a Hatsumi lineage inheritor or as the head of Quest, what other areas does SKH promote/teach? To specify, Ninja were mission oriented (small scale and large scale objectives) and that dictated the skills, tactics.... what modernizations or adaptations are in place as a response to the modern age vs. the traditional preservation goal of most commercial martial arts.

And yes, the days of sugar cookieing on the beach after coming in from the water was an adventure, but damn if the sand didn't get everywhere....and I do mean EVERYWHERE.


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## Shogun (May 26, 2004)

I am just now starting SKH's courses, but I have followed his actions for a while. To answer the question, He does not water anything down. Mr. Hayes teaches classical and Modern Ninjutsu. As far as going to schools, then 6 weeks later the instructor is certified to teach Ninjutsu, this is total nonsense. SKH does certify for individual parts of ninjutsu. He can certify for, say, the Kihon Happo. or Kuji no kata of Kukishinden ryu hikenjutsu.


Kyle


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## r.severe (May 26, 2004)

The 'earth', 'fire', 'water', etc.. are part of the Japanese culture.
Ninjutsu comes from the Japanese culture.

Hayes shihan might have had a great ideal with the godai... but... I don't believe from my experience that it is part of the Bujinkan arts as Hayes shihan used them...

But from his position.. he did a very good service in coming up with using these as a teacher aid and a foiundation of his methodology...

I hope this helps...

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Deaf (Jun 1, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I am just now starting SKH's courses, but I have followed his actions for a while. To answer the question, He does not water anything down. Mr. Hayes teaches classical and Modern Ninjutsu. As far as going to schools, then 6 weeks later the instructor is certified to teach Ninjutsu, this is total nonsense. SKH does certify for individual parts of ninjutsu. He can certify for, say, the Kihon Happo. or Kuji no kata of Kukishinden ryu hikenjutsu.
> Kyle



Ummm...I think this is false dude.  Hayes doesn't teach kihon happo or kuji or Kukishinden Ryu Hikenjutsu (unless he shows those things in a seminar).  What he does teach at his schools is ToShinDo.  Which by his own words is a "distilled" version of what he learned in the Bujinkan.   

I can honestly verify that YES he did (I don't know if he still does) offer anyone from any style a chance to teach ToShinDo and YES he did rank them up to higher levels in a very short short short time period.  In fact that is one of the reasons (and there are quite a few) as to why I quit training with him.  The day total strangers from another style came in and attended 4 workshops (and still could not do the techniques) were promoted to a higher rank then myself and others within my group (we have been training for the better part of 2 years!).  I saw this, questioned it and then decided that this was not the environment nor the affilation that I wanted to be training with.  So I went my way, found a Bujinkan instructor and never look back.

I give the guy credit where he deserves...he did expose the art to the masses and he is skilled however that is about it in my opinion.  I used to really respect the man but now...I can't really say anything positive about him from what I have seen in his actions and the quality of students that have walked out of his dojo.

~Deaf~


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## Cryozombie (Jun 1, 2004)

Deaf said:
			
		

> I can honestly verify that YES he did (I don't know if he still does) offer anyone from any style a chance to teach ToShinDo and YES he did rank them up to higher levels in a very short short short time period.
> 
> ~Deaf~



That is pretty much what my instructor who started out under Mr. Hayes said as well.  Shogun, isn't your experience "studying under" Hayes from his quest videos?


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## Frank Anford (Jun 1, 2004)

Deaf said:
			
		

> I give the guy credit where he deserves...he did expose the art to the masses and he is skilled however that is about it in my opinion. I used to really respect the man but now...I can't really say anything positive about him from what I have seen in his actions and the quality of students that have walked out of his dojo.
> 
> ~Deaf~


bit confused here...
He exposed ninjutsu to the world (positive)
He is skilled (positive)
What are the negative "actions" you've witnessed deaf?
and 
isn't Stephen Hayes a Buddhist Priest? Thats pretty positive!


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## Cruentus (Jun 1, 2004)

Frank Anford said:
			
		

> bit confused here...
> He exposed ninjutsu to the world (positive)
> He is skilled (positive)
> What are the negative "actions" you've witnessed deaf?
> ...



The critics seem to feel that he jeprodized the integrity of the art for the purpose of comercialization. This is more of a criticism over his capitalistic ideal rather then his buddhist ones.  :wink1:


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## Shogun (Jun 1, 2004)

> Ummm...I think this is false dude. Hayes doesn't teach kihon happo or kuji or Kukishinden Ryu Hikenjutsu (unless he shows those things in a seminar).


Actually, I am a Long Distance student, and one can study in individual parts of the art, thru video.



> unless he shows those things in a seminar


isnt that what we were talking about? Taekwondo teachers attending his seminars? if not I am lost......


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## Pyros (Jun 1, 2004)

In Bujinkan you need to be 5th dan to get a licence to teach on your own. Bussey never got that far! He was only a 1st dan and demanded that he should be given an instructor's licence. Nagato Sensei granted him 4th dan and said that go take the 5th dan test if you feel you are ready to become an instructor. Bussey left and never trained with them again (when asked about the reason for quitting Bujinkan, he claimed that the Bujinkan teachings conflicted with his religious beliefs). He came to the USA and marketed himself as the great ninja master king of combat.

Hayes got the instructor licence fair and square. And he didn't leave Bujinkan then to run for money. He studied there for years more, gaining even higher ranks. Then he thought he could make some changes, for example he brought defences against the "typical" attacks (like boxing type attacks and so on) sooner and consulted sports education experts for more effective, or at least more scientific methods of forming a learnable syllabus. At least according to his own word, he got the green light for doing this from Hatsumi Soke.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 1, 2004)

Pyros said:
			
		

> Hayes got the instructor licence fair and square. And he didn't leave Bujinkan then to run for money. He studied there for years more, gaining even higher ranks. Then he thought he could make some changes, for example he brought defences against the "typical" attacks (like boxing type attacks and so on) sooner and consulted sports education experts for more effective, or at least more scientific methods of forming a learnable syllabus. At least according to his own word, he got the green light for doing this from Hatsumi Soke.



I don't think any of that is in question, I think the issue everyone is arguing about is if he allowed Dojo owners from other styles to teach ninjutsu after attending a few seminars or not.  2 people I know (Well, 1 i KNOW, and the other being Deaf) who were involved with Shadows of Iga claim this is in fact what he did... and at least one other instructor with him wont comment beyond that, but doesnt train there anymore.  Prior to the SOI becoming "Quest" I only had an introductory course at a SOI school, which I did not sign up for because I was offput by the fact I had to sign a 1 year contract AND buy Mr. Hayes books from the dojo in order to achieve rank in the art.  That wasn't for me.  So I was not around to see it happen, but I see no reason that I would be lied to either.


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## heretic888 (Jun 2, 2004)

> My problem with some of this 'public shadow warrior' business is that so much of Ninjutsu historically had more to do with intelligence/espionage/assasination/spec ops skills than simply using weapons and empty hand techniques. Either as a Hatsumi lineage inheritor or as the head of Quest, what other areas does SKH promote/teach? To specify, Ninja were mission oriented (small scale and large scale objectives) and that dictated the skills, tactics.... what modernizations or adaptations are in place as a response to the modern age vs. the traditional preservation goal of most commercial martial arts.



Heh. That's probably why its not called 'ninjutsu' anymore.  :uhyeah:


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## Deaf (Jun 2, 2004)

Frank Anford said:
			
		

> bit confused here...
> He exposed ninjutsu to the world (positive)
> He is skilled (positive)
> What are the negative "actions" you've witnessed deaf?
> ...



If you read my post again, you will see that I stated one negative action (that being of promoting someone from a different art up to a high rank and being able to teach ToShinDo after only a few workshops where as...people who have been training for several years within his dojo (who put in the sweat, blood and many hours) were totally shrugged off.  It was all about the money.  That is ONE negative action that I have witness.  

The quality of the level of students that are being produced from his dojo is seriously lacking!  Granted there are some that are ok or good but from what I have seen from several coming into my dojo to check things out.  I'm not impressed and a bit angry that these people have been mislead or misguided and taught virtually NOTHING for well over 6 months to years!  Especially at the prices that they charge!!!  Now this is really MY OPINION and the subject can open up a huge can of worms so that is all I really have to say about that particular negative action.

And the other point that really really boils my blood...His art is TOSHINDO...NOT Bujinkan and I wished he and his students would get that through their heads!  To have a person from ToShinDo come up to me (with a black belt) and act like he/she is my equivalent or superior AND claims affiliation in my art (I'm extremely proud of my art) is just WRONG.  I don't see anyone from Jinekan nor Genbukan doing this.  In fact these branches make no claim other than that the founders have trained in the Bujinkan in the past.  Where as, I CONSTANTLY hear many ToShinDo people claim they are ranked and licensed with the Bujinkan which in fact they are not.  "But...but...I was TOLD at the QuestCenter that I'm a member and recognized by the Bujikan etc."  One word I have to say about that one...HORSES@#T!

Those are two actions I have given you and there are more that are a bit more personal which I don't care to discuss in the open.  

Now like I said, I give Hayes credit where he deserves it but that is as far as I go.

~Deaf~


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## Deaf (Jun 2, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Actually, I am a Long Distance student, and one can study in individual parts of the art, thru video.
> 
> isnt that what we were talking about? Taekwondo teachers attending his seminars? if not I am lost......




Well no, because Kihon Happo and the Kuji no kata of Kukishinden ryu hikenjutsu are NOT ToShinDo.  They are Bujinkan.  Now I believe Hayes has videos that cover that particular stuff but it is NOT part of the ToShinDo curriculum etc.  

The TaeKwonDo teachers were actually attending a Quest Owners workshop which is geared specifically on teaching and learning the ToShinDo cirriculum.  Once again nothing Bujinkan related.

I think your main confusion is thinking ToShinDo is Bujinkan etc.  It isn't.  It is a totally different animal regardless of what Hayes claims.

~Deaf~


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## Jay Bell (Jun 2, 2004)

Correction....Steve Hayes is still part of Bujinkan and trains actively under Hatsumi sensei.

The following statement is incorrect:



> I CONSTANTLY hear many ToShinDo people claim they are ranked and licensed with the Bujinkan which in fact they are not.



In the Hayes umbrella, you can train in Bujinkan and Toshindo....many of his students, local and distant *are* ranked in Bujinkan.


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## stauburn (Jun 2, 2004)

I think Hayes deserves alot of credit and respect for what he has done for ninjitsu in North America. There isn't  a person here who wasn't a Hayes junkie if they started out training in the 80's and we all have had an instructor ( or themselves) that grew out a Hayes beard and moustache...

All of us here has owned, borrowed or stolen and Hayes book at some time and ran around around the park kicking trees and practicing ukemi. I have never met the man and don't follow his present program of teaching, but I would jump at a chance to attend a class? seminar of his because I know I would learn more than I have from some dedicated bujinkan instructors that I have met in the past.

People always seem to be talking about what he teaches , doesn't teach and that he is out to make money ..my answer to that is who cares...if something out there works for you and you like it so be it. You can study Genbukan, Bujinjikan, ToSHin DO or whatever at the end of the day all that matters is if you can save your own *** if need be.

As many people before me has said....Stop talking  & train...


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## Shogun (Jun 2, 2004)

Ditto.

I have one more question. If the Hayes curriculum is watered down, and/or lacking depth, (claims about unskilled students, and all) then why do I have to study 2 beginning kata for 5-9 months?

just a thought.......


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## Cryozombie (Jun 2, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Ditto.
> 
> I have one more question. If the Hayes curriculum is watered down, and/or lacking depth, (claims about unskilled students, and all) then why do I have to study 2 beginning kata for 5-9 months?
> 
> just a thought.......



"Kata" in ninjutsu is a movement Idea.  You should perfect those movement ideas.  I wonder, however, why you only have 2...


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## Cryozombie (Jun 2, 2004)

stauburn said:
			
		

> As many people before me has said....Stop talking  & train...



But... I'm sitting at my desk at work, I cannot train!  :boing2: 

And besides, maybe my time on MT is training!


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## Shogun (Jun 2, 2004)

> "Kata" in ninjutsu is a movement Idea. You should perfect those movement ideas. I wonder, however, why you only have 2......


I am ware of that. I was refering to the talk of unskilled students. if someone practices 2 kata for 6 months at a time, and still does'nt have the skills, then, you know..... maybe they should try something else....like sitting. It is just that I cant understand why people would say someone is unskilled if they must spend this long on each kata. I am not complaining....but others seem to be. 

I purchase the monthly lesson, and each one has 2-4 kata on it. I dont use it only as a source of MA though. I also study at the Seattle Shinobu dojo (bujinkan) occasionally.


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## Deaf (Jun 2, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Correction....Steve Hayes is still part of Bujinkan and trains actively under Hatsumi sensei.
> 
> The following statement is incorrect:



Never said that Hayes wasn't still part of Bujinkan nor that he wasn't actively training with Hatsumi Sensei.  In fact I never even tried to deny any of that.  All I stated was that Toshindo is Toshindo and not Bujinkan!




			
				Jay Bell said:
			
		

> In the Hayes umbrella, you can train in Bujinkan and Toshindo....many of his students, local and distant *are* ranked in Bujinkan.




No the statement is correct.  The people who are strictly in Toshindo (NOT training in the bujinkan as well) are not ranked in Bujinkan.  I know of several people who do in fact train in both Toshindo and Bujinkan, so with these people I have no problems.  I just have problems with the Toshindo only people thinking they are part of the Bujinkan.

The entire argument I am stating is that Toshindo is Toshindo and not Bujinkan.

As I have state before, I give Hayes credit for many of his past accomplishments and many of us would probably have not had the opportunity to train within the Bujinkan if it wasn't for him.  Just like any other human being...he has his pros and cons.

~Deaf~


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## Deaf (Jun 2, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I am ware of that. I was refering to the talk of unskilled students. if someone practices 2 kata for 6 months at a time, and still does'nt have the skills, then, you know..... maybe they should try something else....like sitting. It is just that I cant understand why people would say someone is unskilled if they must spend this long on each kata. I am not complaining....but others seem to be.
> 
> I purchase the monthly lesson, and each one has 2-4 kata on it. I dont use it only as a source of MA though. I also study at the Seattle Shinobu dojo (bujinkan) occasionally.




Whoa dude...did I say that because you are studying only 2 kata for 6 months that you suck?  NO, I did not, so I don't know where you got that line of thinking from.  

I'm not saying that you're going to suck by practicing and learning Toshindo, every art has it's pros and cons.  And even thought Toshindo is based on or "distilled" Bujinkan knowledge that Hayes put together, it is a different art than Bujinkan.  Thus my argument to begin with...Toshindo is Toshindo and NOT Bujinkan!

~Deaf~


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## Elizium (Jun 3, 2004)

Well as everyone is saying Ninjutsu in this thread, maybe I should say taijutsu as ninjutsu is the essence of the ninja, and we are all studying taijustu to learn movement.  We are not learning ninjutsu for movement, that is ideology, taijustsu is your motivation in training.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 3, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> Well as everyone is saying Ninjutsu in this thread, maybe I should say taijutsu as ninjutsu is the essence of the ninja, and we are all studying taijustu to learn movement.  We are not learning ninjutsu for movement, that is ideology, taijustsu is your motivation in training.



Potayto/Pototo... 

You are right of course...  :asian:


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## Shogun (Jun 3, 2004)

> Whoa dude...did I say that because you are studying only 2 kata for 6 months that you suck? NO, I did not, so I don't know where you got that line of thinking from.



No, you did'nt. thats not what I was saying. I am saying that, all the talk of watered down, innefective, and so on...really what has been said on this forum is controdicting. Does anyone know for sure where the argument lies...? I am completely lost at this point. Watered down? if he teaches both, the how is it watered down? if people learn it fast, doesnt that make it simply easy to learn? I just am not even sure what we are talking about anymore. this is what I think;
1. SKH is a great teacher. He is full of useful info, and I would train personally if I had the chance.
2. Toshindo, even though some people dont like it, is developed with modern fighting in mind, and I respect Hayes for bringing Ninjutsu to the new age.

so, really, it boils down to a matter of opinion. I like what hayes has done. thats it.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 3, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> No, you did'nt. thats not what I was saying. I am saying that, all the talk of watered down, innefective, and so on...




Let me clarify, then I will bow out of this conversation...

I was the one who used the term "Watered Down" and it was not based on Mr. Hayes ability, or the fact he teaches Toshindo AND bujinkan (if he still does teach Bujinkan, I dont know that or not, its been said here, so I will agree he does)

I used the term "Watered Down" to describe the method of teaching pre-existing TKD schools to teach Toshindo in a series of short seminars and then giving teaching rank to those instructors.  In the Bujinkan it takes years to become an instructor, if Toshindo only takes a couple months, and is based on the "Distilled" teachings of the Bujinkan, MY PERSONAL OPINION is that in this case Distilled means Watered down.  It doesn't affect his (Mr Hayes) skill, or ability to teach, but I think it might affect the quality of some, if not all, of the teachers he produces that way.

Personally, and again it is just my opinion, I don't think regardless of how many useless techniques/ideas/principles you remove from an art, that a practitoner can become a master in 6 months... let alone over the course of a few simple seminars.  But that's my opinion.  If you look back to my ORIGINAL post, I gave a lot of Credit to Mr Hayes, I just disagreed with his commercialization of the art.  But again, thats one man's opinion, everyone feels differently about these things.  Hatsumi Sensei said not to use the teachings of the Bujinkan for Personal Profit... so I won't profit from them. If others choose to, including Mr Hayes, that's their choice.


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## r.severe (Jun 3, 2004)

Saying Hayes shihan is not teaching Bujinkan arts... is more or less saying I do not teach Bujinkan arts as well.

Not true.

If you are experienced, licensed, and trained in the ryuha, gyokko ryuha, koto ryuha, togakure ryuha, takagi yoshin ryuha, kukishinden ryuha, and shinden fudo ryuha... and teaching them as your methodology or part of the methodology.... correctly... then.. you are in fact teaching the Bujinkan arts... (also known as Hatsumi ryu...)
Forget about the license and experience and being trained for a second...
Hayes shihan training DVD series proves this without any question... as well as I can prove it if you view a class here.

This is totally a silly thread.. to say Hayes shihan is not park of or not teaching Bujinkan arts..

Just because he calls it Toshindo.. or I call it kamiyama Dojo...
What difference does that really mean?
We are both license to do so..

What else can be said?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Tgace (Jun 8, 2004)

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/teaching.php

Teaching Authentic Ninjutsu?
I realize that it is not the kind of thing some people really want to hear, but one of several reasons that I stopped teaching stealth and "sneaky" survival courses after the 1980s was that I had tended to attract a lot of people with some major social and psychological defects as a result of being "the ninja guy" who dominated the martial arts media of the 1980s. 

It seems that a lot of people who are attracted to creepy things are... ...well, kind of creepy. 

Maybe someday I will write a small book about all the unbelievable but very true adventures I had with creepy people who abandoned their families, stormed out on dads who warned them that they were losers, and hugged their fantasy novels (in the Carlos Castaneda and Hobbit days of 20 years ago) to move to Dayton and "be a ninja". 

And of course, with all of the penniless "dustballs" hanging around my scene, all of the real producers and influential people of society stayed away from what must have looked like a cult of weird outcasts. 

I went somewhat underground in the late 1980s, leaving the media scene and doing things in protective services that allowed me to test out and explore what I had learned, and what it was that real people seemed to need most in life. 

When I re-emerged in the mid 1990s, I realized that Hatsumi Sensei knew what he was saying when he urged me to withhold most of the ninja material that I had been taught as a student in Japan in the 1970s. Yes, there was a good reason that Hatsumi Sensei changed the gi fronts from NIN to BUJIN when all the books in America (sorry!) forced him to open the dojo to the public in the early 1980s. 

We offered To-Shin Do as "self defense and self-development" when I came back to the public in 1996, and I am delighted with the caliber (and number) of people that are now a part of my life. 

I was just extremely fortunate to have been there at the right time to have been taught authentic ninjutsu. Actually, my first 3 degree certificates were in Togakure ryu, not Bujinkan Dojo martial arts. As it turned out, I was there for the years when Sensei was verifying what he had been taught by his teacher. I was lucky, in that I got to learn the real ninjutsu (without the creepy people around!) that Hatsumi Sensei has been working for almost 20 years now to put back in the shadows. 

That said, it seems that there is considerable demand from good Quest Center people for actual training in the stealth aspects of what is the root art of To-Shin Do. 

Let me work on putting together a workshop and some curriculum elements that can be practiced after the workshop is over, and I will discretely get word out to the Quest Center students and persons who are in sympathy with what we are doing. 

This will take quite a bit of time to arrange (do not look for the seminar in the next few months - maybe not even in 2001), and I will warn you many times before you get to the training grounds that real ninjutsu mind and invisibility training is probably not anything at all like what most 1980s movie-goers might expect. 

- Stephen K. Hayes


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## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

Nice post Tom.

Yea...I could just picture all the "ninja nerds" flocking like Sheep to Dayton. Pretty funny. I was a "ninja nerd" (with no experience other then TKD and my Ninja books) from about 7 to 11 years old!  :uhyeah:


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## Tgace (Jun 8, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Nice post Tom.
> 
> Yea...I could just picture all the "ninja nerds" flocking like Sheep to Dayton. Pretty funny. I was a "ninja nerd" (with no experience other then TKD and my Ninja books) from about 7 to 11 years old! :uhyeah:


that struck a chord with my "ninja" craze days...so much so I stared another thread on it.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14854


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## Elizium (Jun 8, 2004)

From the last post placed, Hayes is right.  It does attract the nutcases who want to learn how to climb trees, steal their way into castles and murder the Shogun while still looking mysterious.


Some years ago, while training in Wakefield, one guy came up looking for the mystical stereotypical ninja assasin.  He walked in to the centre manager front area claimg to be a Shinobi womething or other in a Itchimonji walking stance.  To the centre owner he was a joker looking for the mystical.  when shown the room we were training in he ws in for a shock.  What he got was a American Football Kicker, a homeopath practitioner, load of workers in the blue collar sector, young people wanting to learn a MA to accompany their own style (cross train).  What the guy ws looking for was a room full of masked people trying to kill each other, not people sat around talking or training discussing the weeks events.  :sadsong:

To me ToShinDo and Bijunkan are, in my view, different.  I have not seen ToShinDo and is blind to what the system is all about.  If anyone can give me a page link to learm more I would be grateful.  But if ToShinDo is the same as Taijutsu, then what is the problem?  It is the same in my eye.  Hayes is Hayes and he can teach whatever he wishes.  He could teach total rubbish like Kim and pass it off as something unique.  Mr. Severe could teach whatever he wishes, maybe call it bullSheeto, and pass it off as unique.  

Hayes is, and has been said in this thread, still Bujinkan.  Until he says differently, the context of the thread will be self defeating.


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## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

> From the last post placed, Hayes is right. It does attract the nutcases who want to learn how to climb trees, steal their way into castles and murder the Shogun while still looking mysterious.



Are you telling me that I can't learn to storm the castle. Dammit...what if I have to kill the shogun? You just never know!  :boing2:


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## Flatlander (Jun 8, 2004)

The Shogun may be my nemesis...(looks over shoulder)  whispers "storm the castle Paul, kill him before he gets me...":jediduel:


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## Shogun (Jun 8, 2004)

> what if I have to kill the shogun? You just never know!


Is that a threat?........? lol.


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## Flatlander (Jun 8, 2004)

OOPS!  Sorry dude!  Didn't even know there was a Shogun!  (extends hand and bows head)  Hi.  I'm Flatlander.


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## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> OOPS!  Sorry dude!  Didn't even know there was a Shogun!  (extends hand and bows head)  Hi.  I'm Flatlander.



*Whispers* That's it...distract the Shogun....I am storming the castle as we speak!  :lol:


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## Flatlander (Jun 8, 2004)

:rofl: Oh man!  I work in a mall kiosk.  I just burst out laughing uncontrollably!  I'm still snorting.  Oh boy.  That was damn good.:rofl:


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## Shogun (Jun 8, 2004)

> *Whispers* That's it...distract the Shogun....I am storming the castle as we speak!


I heard that!


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## Elizium (Jun 9, 2004)

Right then... after three... 



1....



2.....


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