# Stoopit neighbor , stoopit dog



## Flea (Jan 20, 2011)

This is more of a vent than anything else.

I've lived in an otherwise lovely apartment complex since August, and every so often a border collie sprints up out of nowhere and charges at my dog. The full-on aggressive language is unmistakable - rigid stance leaning forward, tail upright and moving very slowly, ears flat, teeth exposed, growl. Only twice was the owner anywhere nearby, and of course offered no apology.

Tonight was the eighth time, and this time the owner saw it. I took my dog home and went back to talk to him as politely as I could. "He's a border collie!"  Well duh, so is my dog, but there's a huge difference between aggression and herding.  "My dog isn't aggressive!" Predictably, he slammed the door in my face. Naturally he's not really in a position to _know_ whether his dog is aggressive because it roams free a lot of the time.  Shouldn't I know it's my responsibility to evade his dog because he's entitled to do whatever he wants?   

I hate to do it, but I think I'm going to have to strap one on and escalate this with a complaint to the management. It's not my style to piss and moan to a third party but he made his choice by closing the door.  I'll admit there's some ego at play for me, but eight times is a track record. And if the owner refuses to do something as simple as use a leash, it's a public safety hazard. It's a family complex and there are other dogs, old folks, and small children around. I don't want to do him any harm with it, but a snotty letter from the office might make him think a little more clearly about keeping his dog at home. It's either that, or I call Animal Control.

I know some of you are going to tell me to shoot the dog, but that isn't realistic.  And besides, it isn't the dog's fault that his owner is an ***.  He just needs some training.  He is, after all, a border collie.


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## K-man (Jan 20, 2011)

Boarders are among the most intelligent dogs out there. They generally aren't aggressive so it seems to me that it is poor handling and no training on the part of your neighbour.  The most important thing he needs to do is socialise his dog. If he hasn't got time to work with his dog he shouldn't have one.  Your options are limited but I feel you've done all you can do.  Discuss it with management and see if they could handle it in a sensitive way. Unfortunately you will probably have him as a neighbour for some time.  :asian:


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## Sukerkin (Jan 20, 2011)

Aye, Borders are wonderful dogs - intelligent, loyal, obedient and happy to work with people and other dogs.  My Pip was so obedient that she sat when I ordered her even when she was being attacked by another dog (I defended her rather than the other way around, as dogs fighting can have the most awful legal consequences, whereas it would have been more straightforward if I had gotten bitten).

So ... if this one is playing-up badly then, as it is most of the time, it is the owners fault and his responsibility.

You might try one more 'soft' approach with the owner but if they are not going to meet you half-way it may be a good idea to talk to other dog-owners in the area to see if they have problems with this one too.  If they do, then you have a much better chance of getting something done about it.


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## PatMunk (Jan 20, 2011)

Most places have leash laws ... check and see if your area does and call the authorities ... They will know how to handle and educate the owner.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 20, 2011)

K-man said:


> Boarders are among the most intelligent dogs out there. They generally aren't aggressive so it seems to me that it is poor handling and no training on the part of your neighbour.  :asian:


 AMEN! This is one of the things that really pisses me off about people who say "hey, lets get a dog!" and then they apparently via dog's behavior show that they have done NOTHING to help discipline and train the dog how to act. It's a responsibility that I think a lot of people don't realize they'll have when they look in a pet-shop window and say awww I want it, and take it home with them. 

The neighbor is an *** plain and simple... stoopid neighbor definitely = stoopid dog


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 20, 2011)

PatMunk said:


> Most places have leash laws ... check and see if your area does and call the authorities ... They will know how to handle and educate the owner.



This was my first thought as well. I don't know of any place that doesn't have leash laws now. Call animal control next time you see the dog roaming around and let the thick-skulled owner pay to pick him up from the pound.


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## Flea (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone.  I know exactly what you guys mean about keeping dogs busy.  My own BC had some problem behaviors and I educated myself.  Petsmart has some great trainers using exclusively positive methods and its made all the difference.  Our training sessions are bonding moments for us, and it's also a big feather in my cap as neighbors see us doing it outdoors in full public view.  (My apartment is way too tiny for recall and out-of-sight stays.)  He still has some anxiety issues, but he works them out by chewing his way through the paper recycling bin.  I can live with that.

I'm angry with this guy, but I'm trying very hard to take a loving and spiritual approach of helping him work his way through being in error.  That was my intention in knocking on his door last night.  I even said "I'm not yelling at you, I just want you to understand this is going on."  * sigh *  We all have our blind spots, and problems with our loved ones top the list for most people.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 20, 2011)

Flea said:


> He just needs some training.


 
Sounds like you're talking about the dog and the owner.

Some people shouldn't have pets, (or children), they assume they just train and or raise themselves. I agree, look into the local laws. Sadly this poor dog is going to get up on the wrong end of a rottweiler or a Honda mini van.


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## Slipper (Jan 20, 2011)

We have a Border Collie that was a stray (we live out in the country so animals tend to wander up from the road at times). We typically call animal control, but he was so friendly (and he seems to smile all the time) that we kept him. My oldest daughter (the one with autism) is a runner and he's great with her. If she darts he is after her like a shot and curls himself around her and angles his body so she can't go further. It's fascinating.

Considering that they are herding animals and there are children running around the apartment complex, I think the chances are high that someone will be bitten (even innocently) by your neighbor's BC. In case your management isn't familiar with the nature of Border Collie's (sweet, but love to herd), you may want to include that in your note.


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## Flea (Jan 20, 2011)

After a little homework this morning, I found that by charging at other animals like this he meets the legal criteria as a "dangerous dog."  I _really_ don't want to go that route though.  I love dogs and I love border collies in particular.  There are many steps I can take and I'm being careful to leave myself plenty of room to escalate if I need to.  A series of letters to the apartment complex, a letter to the parent corporation, and only then would I consider Animal Control.  With all those steps I'm sure it won't come to that.  My only worry is that since I did address him face to face, now he knows who's behind the process.  So be it.

Here's my first volley:

_I'm worried about a dog that's been off-leash frequently in the complex.  There have been eight instances where this dog has charged aggressively at my dog from some distance.  Most of the time it occurred as I walked my dog behind the buildings on the west side of the property, near the line between the mowed grass and where it grows taller.  This border collie has a pattern of racing up to us suddenly, teeth bared and growling.  The first time it happened I tried to defuse the situation by speaking in a friendly tone to the dog, but when that didn't work I simply pulled my dog away by his leash, hoping the off-leash dog would lose interest.

There was one occasion where I walked my dog in one of the parking lots facing the center road, and the dog threatened us again.  This time the dog's owner watched the whole thing.  I began pulling my dog away as the off-leash dog followed.  The owner said "my dog wants to make friends." When I pointed out that his dog was aggressively baring its teeth, he insisted that "he's smiling."  His dog then charged at us, and the owner shrugged "oh, I guess it was aggression."  He then turned and walked away without restraining his dog or apologizing.

The dog charged at my dog and I again last night.  This time the owner was pulling into the parking lot as I walked by.  As he opened his car door his dog raced out, again snarling and baring its teeth.  The owner called the dog inside his apartment without acknowledging me at all.  Now that I knew where the the owner lived, I took my dog home and knocked on the man's door.  I told him politely that it was the eighth time his dog had charged at us.  I stated that I wasn't bringing it up to yell at him, but simply to let him know that this was going on.  He responded by saying that "he's a border collie."  I told him that my own dog is a border collie too, and I understand herding behavior, but there's a difference between herding and aggression.  He responded that "it's not aggression" and closed the door in my face.

For the record, herding and aggression are very different behaviors.  Herding involves crouching with a long stare, and suddenly racing in to circle the "flock" while barking and nipping. Aggression looks dramatically different - a dog has a rigid, forward-leaning stance, tail fully upright and moving slightly, ears flat, teeth bared, and growling.  This dog displays the latter behavior consistently in every interaction with my dog.  

I hate to bring this up with the office; I don't want to cause any trouble for the owner or any harm to the dog.   But as it stands, I worry about the overall safety of the residents here.  If it were an isolated incident I'd be willing to let it go, and I've held my peace for quite a while.  But other dogs live here, as do humans.  What if this dog became so aggressive with a small child who doesn't know how to behave around dogs?  

All I'm asking is that he leash his dog.  I would have told him that last night if he'd heard me out.  I don't know the man's name, but he lives in apartment #666.  Perhaps he'll be more inclined to listen to you._


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## Sukerkin (Jan 20, 2011)

Politely and calmly worded, Flea.  A good letter to open with.

I am assuming he really doesn't live at apartment #666?  Or have we discovered why his dog is overly aggressive .


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## Flea (Jan 20, 2011)

Well I didn't smell any sulphur when he opened the door, but you never know.  I almost closed the letter with "He has a small sign in the window that reads 'A border collie lives here.' I'm well aware of that."  But I thought it might be a little strong.  I'll save it for the next letter.  :whip1:

Edit: I actually haven't sent it yet.  I'm nursing a bad cold right now and feeling very loopy, so I don't trust my writing.  I'd appreciate any helpful feedback via PM if anyone feels like it.


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 21, 2011)

It's a very good letter Flea. :asian:


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## Carol (Jan 21, 2011)

Its an excellent letter.  I'd definitely send it instead of just sitting on it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 21, 2011)

The dog's breed doesn't matter.  Totally beside the point.

The dog is running loose.  Either that is permitted by law (or apartment rules) or it is not.  If not, file a complaint.

I would file a complaint even if the behavior is NOT illegal.

The reason is simple.  If I ever found myself required to take action to protect myself or my leashed dog from this other dog, I would have something in writing with a third party.  Saying _"I told the owner some time ago and he slammed the door in my face"_ proves nothing to nobody.  Make it official.  Thereafter, file a complaint every single time the dog is out loose.  Period.

Make sure you don't break the rules yourself.  Once you start making reports, things change.  But that's the way it goes.


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## shesulsa (Jan 21, 2011)

I would  only change your last sentence to point out that what you want this owner to do is to be respectful of  his neighbors, the community and comply with the law like everyone else.

I also agree with Bill - issue a complaint  with every single incident - and send this by registered letter to animal control AND the apartment management company.  Oh, the owners, too.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 21, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I also agree with Bill - issue a complaint  with every single incident - and send this by registered letter to animal control AND the apartment management company.  Oh, the owners, too.



I would not bother with the owners.  Then it can be argued that it's a form of harassment, and in any case it invites repercussions.  Let others deal with the owner; just file the complaints with the appropriate parties.  Have no more contact with the owner.  They've been informed, they refused to take action, that's that.

You can't make the owners behave.  Others possibly can, like the police or animal control or the apartment management; or even a judge in a lawsuit if it comes to that.  Stop trying to change their behavior; you tried once, it didn't work, move on to Plan B.


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## shesulsa (Jan 21, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I would not bother with the owners. Then it can be argued that it's a form of harassment, and in any case it invites repercussions. Let others deal with the owner; just file the complaints with the appropriate parties. Have no more contact with the owner. They've been informed, they refused to take action, that's that.
> 
> You can't make the owners behave. Others possibly can, like the police or animal control or the apartment management; or even a judge in a lawsuit if it comes to that. Stop trying to change their behavior; you tried once, it didn't work, move on to Plan B.


 
I meant the owners of the complex, not the dog.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 21, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I meant the owners of the complex, not the dog.



AH, my mistake!


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## Flea (Jan 21, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Make sure you don't break the rules yourself.  Once you start making reports, things change.  But that's the way it goes.



Absolutely.  Since moving here I've found it embarrassingly difficult to scrape enough money off the bottom of my shoe to get my own dog licensed.  So yesterday I cleaned my own karmic slate by selling something on Craigslist to get it done.  

I'd rather go through steps with my apartment complex before getting the law involved - again with the karmic slate.  I want to give him all the chances I can to do the right thing before I take the gloves off.  What can I say?  I'm a nice person.


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## MJS (Jan 21, 2011)

Flea said:


> This is more of a vent than anything else.
> 
> I've lived in an otherwise lovely apartment complex since August, and every so often a border collie sprints up out of nowhere and charges at my dog. The full-on aggressive language is unmistakable - rigid stance leaning forward, tail upright and moving very slowly, ears flat, teeth exposed, growl. Only twice was the owner anywhere nearby, and of course offered no apology.
> 
> ...


 
My suggestion if you already havent....call the police and make a report of this!  I live in a condo complex.  There are a few dogs in the area, mostly small breed.  I have a Shepherd/Husky mix.  A few months ago, while walking him in the AM, he was looking for a spot to do his thing, and suddenly he looked up and across the street.  I looked over as well, to see the front door of one of the units open, and a Boston Terrier come out and dart across the street towards us.  The little bastard comes running, barking, and growling over to us, and comes after my dog.  Of course, he starts barking back, snapping at the dog.  I'm doing my best to get away from the situation...all the while the clueless woman is standing at her door, doing NOTHING!  I couldn't believe this.  Finally her dog runs away.  This time, I did nor said anything, other than mutter a few unkind words.

Fastforward...just a few weeks ago, we're out again.  This time, it was a bit before 6pm.  Passing by the same unit, I see the door open, and here comes the dog.  I'm thinking, "Oh boy here we go again."  Once again, the little **** comes across the street.  My dog isnt aggressive, unless he's pushed of course..lol, so they start fighting.  It was dark and hard to tell if he bit the Terrier.  Again, the dumb ***** is standing there, watching.  I yelled 5 times, "Get your dog!" Finally, she comes across the street and now the dogs running from her.  I'll spare the choice words I was using, but made it clear that this was the last straw.  I obviously had an effect on her, as she runs back to the house, closes the door and turns off the lights.  This was after I told her I was calling the cops.

Went back home, made the call.  The ACO came out.  Talked to me, went to her unit, and of course, nobody was home.  Comes back to me, takes a statement, and follows up the next day.  

Sure enough, the dog wasnt up to date on the license. Due to it being private property, they can't enforce leash laws (the condo assoc. can though) but they can act on the nuisance laws, and a fine for not being registered.

I spoke with the property mgr. a few days after, and he told me 'her side of the story' which I poked alot of holes in. LOL.  Apparently the woman was the mother of the girl who owns the dog.  She tried to say that my dog lunged at hers, which wasnt true.  He wasnt the aggressor but hes not going to stand by and be attacked either. LOL.  She said a few more things, to which I told the guy what really happened, not the fabricated stories she was telling.

The ACO continued to follow up and so far no more issues.  They did tell me that I should report any future incidents, and said that I should have reported the first time, but sadly, I didn't.  Oh well...no biggie.  

People need to take responsibility for their dogs.  I dont care how small a dog is..some think that all they need to do is open the door, no leash, and let it run around, and it'll stay there.  

As I said, this is an issue that is serious.  If you havent already, start the paper trail.


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