# A question about fighting Vs knives



## charyuop (Aug 2, 2006)

I say immediately that I am one of those that Vs a knife probably would last 1-2 seconds hee hee.

I have seen many videos (training and real life) of hand Vs knife. If the one who is armed has technique the discassion is different, but if it is a normal street criminal with no training thing change.

In my opinion, and here I am asking if right or not to you, MA are very good against a knife. Let's not forget that many MA were created centuries  ago where in Orient "mean bully SOBs" were a common thing.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but what kills most against a knife (always a not trained armed man) is fear. If I see a knife my attention is 100% on it, ignoring the rest of the body.
I have seen a video where an armed man was keeping the right distance with the left arm from the victim having ready the knife in the right hand wide on his side. Now if instead of trying to reach for the arm with the blade wouldn't have been easier grabbing the other arm attempting for a joint blockage?
Other times I have seen people trying to stab with a wide swing. Instead of stepping back or try to catch the arm wouldn't be easier to step forward?

I am not trying to say that disarming a knife is easy, mind me. What I would like you to tell me is if I am right that if the pertantage of victory of a hand Vs knife might be 30% Vs 70%, when you concentrate too much on the knife because of the fear it becomes 10% Vs 90%.


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## Jesse (Aug 2, 2006)

The number one thing that you have to do is take care of that knife. I knife will kill you where as a blow with the weaker unarmed hand will probably not.
With my training, we are taught to attack the arm that is swinging at you (the knife arm) 

Its a fact that if you are up against a knife attacker, your going to get cut. You just have to make sure not to get hit one of the 6 major artories. 

Inner left and right thigh
Left and ride side of the neck
Left and ride side palm side wrist.

These are the major areas that will cause you to bleed out fast, there are of course other areas, but these ones don't take much effort to hit. Protect those and of course your internals and make sure you get that knife out.


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## OUMoose (Aug 2, 2006)

Just a couple minor things, as I'm no expert by any stretch.

1)  Never look for a disarm.  If it presents itself to you, fine, but controlling the weapon hand (or arm if you can) is the idea.  Hunting for a disarm is an excellent way to get yourself killed.

2)  Never forget about the live hand (empty hand).  My previous instructor always told me the empty hand is the dangerous one, because as you said yourself, you're not paying attention to it.  I could bait you with my knife hand, then knock you cold with an overhand cross or a hook, or something more inventive.  Plus, you have no idea if I have another weapon ready to go just in case you do get a hold of the one you could see.  Who knows, I might be waiting for you to try to lock up the knife hand so you're close enough that I can stab you with the other knife I have on my belt.  :idunno:

Just some food for thought.


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## charyuop (Aug 2, 2006)

Man I am so glad I live in a very small town and chances it will happen are very tiny.
Anyway I am always convinced that hand Vs knife is always a matter of speed....thus RUN FAST!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am kidding, but I am serious at the same time).


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## Swordlady (Aug 2, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> Anyway I am always convinced that hand Vs knife is always a matter of speed....thus RUN FAST!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am kidding, but I am serious at the same time).



Actually...running AWAY would be a very good idea.  Best way to survive a knife fight is to _avoid_ getting into one.


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## pstarr (Aug 2, 2006)

Yes, whenever possible, RUN!!!

If that isn't an option (for whatever reason), then grab the nearest item you can get your hands on and use it as a weapon...chairs, ashtrays,, anything.  Even slipping off your belt (especially if you wear one with a nice cowboy-style buckle on it) and turning it into a flail is better than nothing.

If you have nothing to use as a weapon, resolve yourself to the fact that you're going to have to kill the opponent.  You'll likely get hit but make up your mind that you're going to take his life...


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## KenpoTex (Aug 3, 2006)

When comes to empty hand vs. knife there are no easy answers. Your best defense is to avoid engaging at all if possible...in other words, run like hell. Failing that, create space while deploying a weapon if your carrying one, if not, try to find one. 

As far as actual technique goes, I've seen very few, if any, traditional martial-arts techniques, including those from the system I study (American Kenpo), that I would feel confident using against someone who was attacking in a committed "rapid-fire blitz" manner. Don't believe me? Try using these tech.'s agains someone who's actually trying 100% to stab you with a training knife...you're going to get nailed. (Note: I'm not trying to step on any toes here. I'm just calling it like I see it and trying to inject a dose of reality, so no whining please)

In my (admittedly inexpert) oppinion, the best EH vs. knife material out there is the Red Zone (or similar) material. I've worked this at 100% resistance with training partners and have had a high degree of success with it. 

As far as disarms go, I prefer the "blunt trauma" disarm...In other words, beat them 'till they can no longer hold on to the knife.  Of course,  4 or 5 rounds to COM from a safe distance works also


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## Carol (Aug 3, 2006)

Something to think about...when working your knife techs, do it in a way where you KNOW when you are getting hit.  Run techs with training blades chilled down in a deep freeze.  Or, Dr. Dave's (Kembudo-Kai Kempoka) experience training with FMAists involved covrering the blades with black marker in and then looking to see how much ink is on you after you run your techs.  A training blade doesn't always give enough feedback as to how seriousn a knife hit is.


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> In my (admittedly inexpert) oppinion, the best EH vs. knife material out there is the Red Zone (or similar) material. I've worked this at 100% resistance with training partners and have had a high degree of success with it.


 
Agreed!  I've seen his first tape and was pretty impressed with what I saw.  IMO, he certainly brought up some very good points and seperated the flash from the reality.  Another similar method of defense is the material put out by Karl Tanswell.  Great stuff and similar to the Red Zone.

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> I have seen a video where an armed man was keeping the right distance with the left arm from the victim having ready the knife in the right hand wide on his side. Now if instead of trying to reach for the arm with the blade wouldn't have been easier grabbing the other arm attempting for a joint blockage?


 
I would think that control of the weapon hand should be a priority, if leaving the area is not an option.  Grabbing the other arm is not doing anything to control the weapon.  As it was stated, a disarm is something that should come after control is gained.  Just like a joint lock, they're something that, when presented to us, we take advantage of.  Again, getting control of the weapon hand should be top on the list.

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2006)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> Just a couple minor things, as I'm no expert by any stretch.
> 
> 1) Never look for a disarm. If it presents itself to you, fine, but controlling the weapon hand (or arm if you can) is the idea. Hunting for a disarm is an excellent way to get yourself killed.


 
 



> 2) Never forget about the live hand (empty hand). My previous instructor always told me the empty hand is the dangerous one, because as you said yourself, you're not paying attention to it. I could bait you with my knife hand, then knock you cold with an overhand cross or a hook, or something more inventive. Plus, you have no idea if I have another weapon ready to go just in case you do get a hold of the one you could see. Who knows, I might be waiting for you to try to lock up the knife hand so you're close enough that I can stab you with the other knife I have on my belt. :idunno:
> 
> Just some food for thought.


 
Great point!  I've worked on this with my FMA instructor.  Its amazing how we tend to forget about that other free hand and get so caught up with the weapon hand.

Mike


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## KenpoTex (Aug 3, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Something to think about...when working your knife techs, do it in a way where you KNOW when you are getting hit. Run techs with training blades chilled down in a deep freeze. Or, Dr. Dave's (Kembudo-Kai Kempoka) experience training with FMAists involved covrering the blades with black marker in and then looking to see how much ink is on you after you run your techs. A training blade doesn't always give enough feedback as to how seriousn a knife hit is.


 Agreed, my training partners and I use a variety of training knives ranging from simple foam "sticks" for full-contact/full-speed training to rubber, to aluminium. They all have their place. A couple of months ago we did the marker thing, the number of "wounds" on everyone definately serves as an eye-opener as to the truly dangerous nature of a conflict involving edged-weapons.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Agreed! I've seen his first tape and was pretty impressed with what I saw. IMO, he certainly brought up some very good points and seperated the flash from the reality. Another similar method of defense is the material put out by *Karl Tanswell*. Great stuff and similar to the Red Zone.
> 
> Mike


Is that the STAB material? I've heard good things about that as well but have not yet had the opportunity to see any of it.

If you have a chance to check out the second Red Zone tape, go for it, by the time he shot the second tape they had modified their "pickup" a little, the one they show in Vol. II works even better than the one in Vol. I. Basically, instead of merely checking/grabbing the arm with their hands as shown in Vol. I, they use a maneuver called the "Dive & Drive" (similar to what little I've seen of the SPEAR system) to catch and hug the arm prior to switching to the "baseball bat grip."  Very effective stuff.


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Is that the STAB material? I've heard good things about that as well but have not yet had the opportunity to see any of it.


 
Yes, thats the STAB program. It can be purchased off his site.



> If you have a chance to check out the second Red Zone tape, go for it, by the time he shot the second tape they had modified their "pickup" a little, the one they show in Vol. II works even better than the one in Vol. I. Basically, instead of merely checking/grabbing the arm with their hands as shown in Vol. I, they use a maneuver called the "Dive & Drive" (similar to what little I've seen of the SPEAR system) to catch and hug the arm prior to switching to the "baseball bat grip." Very effective stuff.


 
Sounds good! Thanks for the description of the material! Sounds like I'll have to check it out!:ultracool 

Mike


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## Swordlady (Aug 3, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Something to think about...when working your knife techs, do it in a way where you KNOW when you are getting hit.  Run techs with training blades chilled down in a deep freeze.  Or, Dr. Dave's (Kembudo-Kai Kempoka) experience training with FMAists involved covrering the blades with black marker in and then looking to see how much ink is on you after you run your techs.  A training blade doesn't always give enough feedback as to how seriousn a knife hit is.



My Yagyu sensei and I sparred with rubber training knives a while ago.  We both managed to tag each other multiple times, and those rubber knives HURT.  Sensei is much better with a knife than I am, but I still managed to land a few blows to his vital areas.  If anything else, that sparring exercise showed that no matter how skilled you are (or not), you _are_ going to get hit.

I have been learning some Aikido takedowns against tanto strikes.  They work well enough in the dojo, but something tells me that they aren't too practical in a "real life" situations.


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## King (Aug 3, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> If anything else, that sparring exercise showed that no matter how skilled you are (or not), you _are_ going to get hit.


 
Great statement. 

My sensei organized a group of us and we sparred with plastic knives using different scenarios. 1vs1, 2vs1, 3v1, 2vs2, 2vs3, 3vs3... ect using one knife or two knives. People came out with unique stances and moves depending on experience. Some had training and some not. But it didn't matter how good or bad you are, the final conclusion was "if you get into a knife fight, expect to get cut". 

Which sounds very simillar to what was said above.


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## Phadrus00 (Aug 3, 2006)

Hey All!

First off some great points here by all.  Especially about the fact that getting cut by the knife is HIGHLY likely in any scenario and that running away is the most desirable (and effective) defense.

I teach FMA and have done a lot of knife work and STILL I get tagged in knife sparring regularly (especially my particularly vulnerable tummy region.. *lol*).  To the original poster I would recommend NOT assuming that the average knife wielder is going to be less effective.  It takes NOTHING to train someone how to cut with a knife, it is a simple, efficient and natural weapon to learn.  While they may have sloppy technique, a sharp knife still bites through flesh easily and even a non-lethal cut (ie not to a magor artery) can quickly incapacitate you due to pain and shock.

If you are FORCED to deal with a knife then attempt to control the range with a longer weapon like a belt or a stick or even a shoe.  Train targetting the weapon HAND and not the weapon itself.  If you can break their thumb thy cannot hold the weapon.  Barring that drill capturing and controlling the weapon hand.  We also stress training against feignts and learning how to quickly defend high and low and turning the body.  There are some wonderful knife drills in the FMA but ultimately it can come to nothing if they are faster than you are.  If you see a knife RUN AWAY!

Regards,
Rob


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## charyuop (Aug 3, 2006)

Another question that might sound rather stupid, but I gotta ask.

If I get stabbed, let's say in my stomach, is it wise grabbing the hand with knife before the attacker pulls the knife out? To go in shock takes few seconds and if he pulls the blade back the shock will leave me basically "still".


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## OUMoose (Aug 3, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> Another question that might sound rather stupid, but I gotta ask.
> 
> If I get stabbed, let's say in my stomach, is it wise grabbing the hand with knife before the attacker pulls the knife out? To go in shock takes few seconds and if he pulls the blade back the shock will leave me basically "still".


Hmmm.  I would have to say that's a bad idea.  If you grab onto his hand with a blade in your gut, he/she is going to start fighting you to pull it out.  Most likely, this will compound the damage severely.  Plus, you just got stabbed in the gut!  Getting away and surviving should be top priority, not continuing to fight.

If it's an untrained/unskilled knife fighter, they'll probably lose the knife on a stab anyways, since muscle contraction will lodge the knife in you (likely, but not always).  Hence, you're actually better off in terms of infection/blood loss.


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## Andy Moynihan (Aug 3, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> My Yagyu sensei and I sparred with rubber training knives a while ago. We both managed to tag each other multiple times, and those rubber knives HURT. Sensei is much better with a knife than I am, but I still managed to land a few blows to his vital areas. If anything else, that sparring exercise showed that no matter how skilled you are (or not), you _are_ going to get hit.
> 
> I have been learning some Aikido takedowns against tanto strikes. They work well enough in the dojo, but something tells me that they aren't too practical in a "real life" situations.


 
Anytime someone asks me what's the best thing to do against a knife my first answer, though intended humorously, is the same:

"About 40 MPH".


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## Kensai (Aug 3, 2006)

I always thought it'd be an idea to carry a small stone (say, an inch across?) in my pocket. From 4 or 5 feet away, I figure I could throw one as hard as I could in a potential attackers face. If I missed, it'd at least make them duck, perhaps giving me time to run? If it hit, it'd hurt like a b*****d, and could give an opening? Just an idea, I'm not an expert on knives, or knife fighting, I do know that they're bloody dangerous. 

If I've not been able to avoid the situation, and I'm up a certain creek, I'm thinking trying to find anything to arm myself with, or use as an inpromptu shield.


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## frank raud (Aug 5, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> I have seen a video where an armed man was keeping the right distance with the left arm from the victim having ready the knife in the right hand wide on his side. Now if instead of trying to reach for the arm with the blade wouldn't have been easier grabbing the other arm attempting for a joint blockage?
> Other times I have seen people trying to stab with a wide swing. Instead of stepping back or try to catch the arm wouldn't be easier to step forward?.


 
If you grab the opposing hand, and try to apply a joint lock, what is stopping the knife wielder from stabbing you while you concentrate on his other arm? I beleive it would be difficult to concentrate o locking someone up as they are stabbing you in your exposed kidneys.

If you step forward, it is not diificult to change the angle or direction of the knife to stab or slash you, Stepping out may not be perfect, but it gets you out of the arc of the knife, hopefully giving you time and opportunity to jam the arm on the backswing, just as an example of something that may work. Until you can make your move to control the knife wielding arm, it is better to stay away from the knife's arc.


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## charyuop (Aug 6, 2006)

What I meant with joint lock was not simply blocking the arm. If you grab his and and apply the other hand on the bone of the elbow, of course it depends on how fast you are,  (which in that position is external) and give a good pressure it's possible to put the opponent on his knees and if you keep pressing going lower the pressure will go on his shoulder. A friend of mine who does martial art once tried on me a wrist lock and he put me on my knees in 2 seconds, I for sure had no way to try punching with the other hand (or stabbing him in case I had a knife) unless I wouldn't care if my wrist was gonna break.
Someone told me once (don't know if it's true) that to break an elbow or dislocate a shoulder it require no more than a 8-10 pounds pressure.
Mine was only an idea (and for sure wouldn't work hee hee), but this way I wouldn't be the one getting out of the knife's arc, but I would put the opponent in position not to reach me.

And morever how many times you will find someone with a knife that offers you the other arm to grab? (hee hee). That was just an example.


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## charyuop (Aug 6, 2006)

Sorry, I understood only now what you meant when you said arc of the knife. I was thinking according to the movement that I know of Tai Chi, where when I grab the wrist and place the on the elbow comes natural to me to do a kind of roll back which will bring me closer the shoulder without the knife. Something like this (K=attacker with knife, M=me). Of course it also depends on the distance, if the hand is too far away (I guess someone calls it bubble of energy? I prefere strong area) pulling a lock is kinda impossible...if the arm is tense you might try a little push and when he applies strangth contrary to yours to keep balance pull him in closer for the lock, but here we step into Sci-Fi world hee hee.

Before grabbing with knife in right hand K
....................................................M (facing)

After grabbing wrist-elbow K
......................................M (with his shoulder "unarmed" lowered by the lock)
And as I say, in these cases if you can break something, do it. Carry moves through to the end, no guilty feelings.

But of course I never tried, not even in training....so as they say don't do at home I don't wanna be responsible.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> What I meant with joint lock was not simply blocking the arm. If you grab his and and apply the other hand on the bone of the elbow, of course it depends on how fast you are, (which in that position is external) and give a good pressure it's possible to put the opponent on his knees and if you keep pressing going lower the pressure will go on his shoulder. A friend of mine who does martial art once tried on me a wrist lock and he put me on my knees in 2 seconds, I for sure had no way to try punching with the other hand (or stabbing him in case I had a knife) unless I wouldn't care if my wrist was gonna break.
> Someone told me once (don't know if it's true) that to break an elbow or dislocate a shoulder it require no more than a 8-10 pounds pressure.
> Mine was only an idea (and for sure wouldn't work hee hee), but this way I wouldn't be the one getting out of the knife's arc, but I would put the opponent in position not to reach me.
> 
> And morever how many times you will find someone with a knife that offers you the other arm to grab? (hee hee). That was just an example.


 
Unless you were standing in a static position, or unless your friend was extremely fast, it is highly unlikely that what you describe above will happen.  No disrespect intended, just trying to bring a bit of reality into the picture.

As some have stated prior, gaining control of the weapon hand should be on the top of the list.

Mike


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## charyuop (Aug 7, 2006)

No disrespect seen there hee hee, this is just a talk. As I said mine is pure theory and I started this thread purely to ask info about what to do in case (God willing that will never happen) I have to face such a situation.
I already know what will happen if it happens to me: I will get paralyzed by fear and end up like those little cushion tailors use to hold their pins...ouch.

No, I was not standing there saying bend my wrist hee hee. We were jocking and I was facing him. At a certain point I thought he didn't have good balance and wanted to show off. I grabbed his wrist to pull him, but he had better balance than I thought. He covered my hand with his free hand and turning the hand I was holding got me on my knees (very painful). Stupid me...it was one of the first lock that I had learnt when I started Tai Chi (if you know Yang Style or see a pitcure somewhere look at the movement called "needle at see bottom" and that might help you understand what lock I refer to) and I ended up caught in it hahahahaha.


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## Phadrus00 (Aug 11, 2006)

Charyuop,

It is an interesting question you pose.  I am familiar with the technique you are referring too and allow me to further quialify my response by saying that when I am not teaching/training FMA I am studying/training in Tai Chi so I have a particular interest how these two arts complement one another or differ radically in approach.

While attacking the free hand of a weapon wielding opponent can allow one to capitalize on interesting oppotuntities such as a joint lock or a nerve strike, it suffers, IMHO, a fatal flaw which is that it ignores the larger issue of Arms Escalation.  Allow me to explain.

If I am fighting someone without weapons then we are one equal footing.  I can counter his kicks and punches with kicks and punches of my own.  Our weapons, all things being equal, deal the same relative damage to one another.  I therefor can apply techniques that allow me to risk some damage (from a punch say) in order to position myself well or to capture an opportune target like a free hand to apply equivalent or incrementally more damage.  The winner of the fight will be the person that cumulatively applies more damage or compromises the other person so much that they cannot defend themself.

Now this SAME logic applies if I am fighting someone where we BOTH have weapons.  I deal damage, they deal damage and the winner is the one that deals the Larger amount of cumulative damage OR compromises the oppoenet to such an extent that they cannot defned themselves anymore.  Of course with Weapons this point is typically reached much faster as a weapon is really a Force Multiplier.  And yes I am blatently ignoring the more complex issues around different weapons with different ranges (gun vs. Knife, stick vs. knife, etc.) but indulge me a moment if you will.

Now let's look at the issue of an asymmetric conflict, one in which I am Unarmed and the opponent is Armed.  The issue here is that my opponent has a Force Multiplier (the knife) and I do not.  I cannot simply be as good or marginally better as he is.  I have to be better than him to the scale of the multiplier of the weapon.  In the case of the knife, the multiplier is very large, perhaps an order of magnitude.  So if you simply attmpt to attack a free hand and ignore the weapon you have to be 10 times as powerful and fast as he is in order to overcome the advantage that the knife gives him.  You may be able to bring him to his knees in pain but he can still cut your leg and make you bleed out from down there.  He doesn't need power or foundation or good technique, he need to drag the blade across an artery and wait the few seconds for you to become unconscious.

When you are faced with a weapon and you have none, you have to deal with that weapon as the first priority or you will be subjected to the Multiplied Force of that weapon.  At the very least you have to neutrlize your opponents ability to use the weapon (a lock on the wrist of the weapon arm0 or you have to retailiate with something more severe (block the knife attack and jab the eyes/throat) in order to give you an opportunity to remove the weapon from play.

Now I have been very fortunate in my life an NEVER had to face an Armed opponent in real life, but my Arnis instructor was an RCMP officer and has on several occasions.  He lived to tell about it by focussing on that weapon hand and taking that out of play as fast as possible so I consider it very solid advice.

Good Luck with your training!

Regards,
Rob




			
				charyuop said:
			
		

> No disrespect seen there hee hee, this is just a talk. As I said mine is pure theory and I started this thread purely to ask info about what to do in case (God willing that will never happen) I have to face such a situation.
> I already know what will happen if it happens to me: I will get paralyzed by fear and end up like those little cushion tailors use to hold their pins...ouch.
> 
> No, I was not standing there saying bend my wrist hee hee. We were jocking and I was facing him. At a certain point I thought he didn't have good balance and wanted to show off. I grabbed his wrist to pull him, but he had better balance than I thought. He covered my hand with his free hand and turning the hand I was holding got me on my knees (very painful). Stupid me...it was one of the first lock that I had learnt when I started Tai Chi (if you know Yang Style or see a pitcure somewhere look at the movement called "needle at see bottom" and that might help you understand what lock I refer to) and I ended up caught in it hahahahaha.


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## charyuop (Aug 11, 2006)

That makes planty of sense.


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## pstarr (Aug 11, 2006)

Some advice (assuming that you can't run away for one reason or another):


Pick up the nearest thing you can use as a weapon and beat the s.o.b. to death with it.  This includes stools, chairs, ashtrays, whatever.
If you wear a belt with a heavy buckle, quickly slip it off and you have an effective flail.  If you don't wear such a belt, get one.
If you have change in your pocket, toss it into the enemy's eyes just as he attacks.  A lit cigarette also serves.
Stay away from the knife so that the aggressor has to make a fairly large, committed movement in order to strike you with his weapon.
     Some guidelines for knife defense techniques/movement:

1. Get out of the line of fire.  When the enemy attacks, don't stay in front 
    of him and try to employ classical blocking maneuvers. 

2. Acquire control of the weapon (by controlling the enemy's hand/arm) 
    and maintain said control until his heart stops beating.

3. Scream! And...

4. Kill him as quickly as possible.


Now for some "don'ts":

A. Never, ever try to employ joint techniques against an armed assailant.  
    He will severely wound you and may well kill you.  The weapon cannot 
    hurt you without his help.  A knife laying on a table is perfectly 
    harmless until some scumbag picks it up.  Eliminate HIM and you 
    eliminate the problem.

B. Never, ever try to grapple with an armed aggressor or execute nifty-
    looking throws.  He will probably kill you.  After all, you're grappling and 
    he's got a weapon.  See (A) above.


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## charyuop (Aug 12, 2006)

For me running is out of possibilities. I have never been a fast runner and run out of breath quickly, thus I would have to fight with heavy breath 

I have a last question. Once seen the fight is inevitable, is it wiser attacking the arm with the knife trying to use the surprise (I think the attacker wouldn't expect someone unarmed to attack first), but this way having the risk of being less ready to avoid a counter attack...or waiting for the person with the knife to attack first so that you could see what he does and react (tho this way if the attacker is faster has 3 advantages: weapon, knows what he is up to and quickness).

I know these are only general guidelines, because every fight presents situation different from one another, but having suggestions from people with fight expirience makes me feel somewhat better.


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## KenpoTex (Aug 12, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Some guidelines for knife defense techniques/movement:
> 
> 1. Get out of the line of fire. When the enemy attacks, don't stay in front
> of him and try to employ classical blocking maneuvers.
> ...


Well said!


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## MJS (Aug 12, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> For me running is out of possibilities. I have never been a fast runner and run out of breath quickly, thus I would have to fight with heavy breath
> 
> I have a last question. Once seen the fight is inevitable, is it wiser attacking the arm with the knife trying to use the surprise (I think the attacker wouldn't expect someone unarmed to attack first), but this way having the risk of being less ready to avoid a counter attack...or waiting for the person with the knife to attack first so that you could see what he does and react (tho this way if the attacker is faster has 3 advantages: weapon, knows what he is up to and quickness).
> 
> I know these are only general guidelines, because every fight presents situation different from one another, but having suggestions from people with fight expirience makes me feel somewhat better.


 
I would have to say that its going to depend on the situation.  Its a tough situation either way, because you could potentially be offering a limb for him to attack.

Mike


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## Phadrus00 (Aug 12, 2006)

Charyuop,

First of all let me say that "running" away is always the best first option irregardless of your speed.  Any chance you have to avoid a potentially lethal encounder is a good one even if you are going to be winded later.  It would also behoove you to consider more aerobic conditioning because believe me, if you thought running was tiring, try fighting with someone with your adrenaline pumping because your life is at risk...  It will make the cross-country team seem like a bunch of wimps.. *smile*

So on to your question as wether it is better to initiate the attack or react to his attack.  I would make the observation that you are assuming the very Best Case Scenario, which is that you will have control and choices in the matter.  Although in class we usually train like this the reality is that we often do not.  There is not likely going to be a lrage preamble to a fight with words exchanged, the crowd parting, an opportunity for you and your oppoenent to look extremely cool and tough, dramatic music and then a big clash of attacks.  It is likely going to happen fast, without a lot of warning and if your oppoenet is willing to use a knife he may hide it until the last second so he can sneak in a dirty shot and kill you quickly.

It's dirty business and you are going to be lucky if you see the knife as the weilder is making his attack.  So your training should really stress reacting to that initial attack and training some rapid avoidance foot work and body positioning as well s intercepting the incoming weapon hand.

IF in the "lucky" circumstance you have the opportunity to see the knife before it is being thrust at you, NEVER try and reach out for it to capture.  It is SO easy to cut your hands on the blade that it makes initiating a capture like that too risky.  I know you are thinking that you could grab the wrist or the forearm but trust me, it is too risky.  Your best option is to use one of the wonderful suggestions that pstarr made in his earlier post to distract him and force a reaction from him such as coins to the face or your belt buckle.  Using something to extend your reach and act as a surrogate limb like a pipe, a branch, your shoe, your shirt, etc. allows you to engage the blade without risking a cut to your primary weapon.  Remeber from my earlier post that you need to deal with the Force Multiplication that the knife introduces and just about ANYTHING is better than nothing.

I cannot stress enough how much a knife changes the game of self-defence tactics.  It is a very lethal and scary weapon and I encourage you to check out some DVD's or books on kife tactics and defences.  I am very fond of Filipino and Silat approaches to this problem but I suspect that the Krav Maga guys have some great material on this as well.

Best Regards,
Rob



			
				charyuop said:
			
		

> For me running is out of possibilities. I have never been a fast runner and run out of breath quickly, thus I would have to fight with heavy breath
> 
> I have a last question. Once seen the fight is inevitable, is it wiser attacking the arm with the knife trying to use the surprise (I think the attacker wouldn't expect someone unarmed to attack first), but this way having the risk of being less ready to avoid a counter attack...or waiting for the person with the knife to attack first so that you could see what he does and react (tho this way if the attacker is faster has 3 advantages: weapon, knows what he is up to and quickness).
> 
> I know these are only general guidelines, because every fight presents situation different from one another, but having suggestions from people with fight expirience makes me feel somewhat better.


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## pstarr (Aug 12, 2006)

Don't attack his arm.  That won't kill him

Kill the jerk who's holding the knife!


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## Makalakumu (Aug 12, 2006)

Protect your vitals and look for every chance you can to run away.  If you can do some damage that makes it easier for you to run away, that is probably the best that you can hope for.


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