# Insights into Kenpo and Crosstraining



## Seig (Aug 19, 2003)

Ladies and Gentlemen:
There has been a LOT of discussion both pro and con concerning this topic. Some really want to discuss it and others want to avoid it. What we, the moderation team, are asking is that you keep the discussion about this topic restricted to this thread. We realize that on occasion that this will surface in other threads. Please make an effort to redirect all such discussions here.
Thank you,
Michael Seigel 
MT Moderator


----------



## MJS (Aug 19, 2003)

Again, yes, there has been much discussion about this topic.  IMO, and I"m only speaking for myself, I think that it is something that is often overlooked.  I realize that there are many traditional people, who prefer to stick with just the Kenpo, and nothing else.  This of course is fine.  I have never seen any of the other people on here that are in favor of crosstraining, telling anyone that it is something that they must do, that they suck if they dont, etc, and the list goes on.  Those are things that people misread into what we are saying.  

As I said on the other thread relating to grappling, Kenpo does focus on punching, kicking, and tech. against many different attacks.  Its pretty much an art that is a "Jack of all trades!"  There are other arts however, such as boxing, which focuses soley on punching.  Judo which focuses on throwing and grappling.  There are Filipino arts, such as Sayoc Kali, that focuses alot on blade work.  I would think that if you wanted to learn how to better counter these people, it would be wise to know how they fight.  Sure, you can say that Kenpo does have knife disarms, but Kenpo does not focus primarily on the blade, while Sayoc does.  

Again, I have never said that this is something that anybody must do, but if you can take something from another art, add it to your Kenpo, and make yourself that much better, is that something not worth doing??  Some of us go to seminars, put on by Masters of what ever art you might be taking.  Why do we go to the seminar??  Dont you go to learn from the Master, learn new ways to improve your tech.?  Ask questions on how to make something work better?  The idea of crosstraining is no different.  

Mike


----------



## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 19, 2003)

I have seen this topic come up alot lately, so I figure instead of just giving my opinion, I'd share some experiences from my trainging to.

Where I train American Kenpo is the main system studied. However my teacher has had alot of training from different sources.

We do alot of kickboxing, Arnis(sticks & knives), and because of his job, we are exposed to restraining techniques and general grappling. He is also into fire arms so we get our fair share of that to. 

It is my opinion that kenpo has principles of motion that can apply to every range. However I think of the curriculum as a guide to help teach principles of motion. I dont consider American Kenpo to be restricted to the confines of that curriculum. I think of it as an outlook/guide to training (almost like jkd) but that gives you training wheels (structured curriculum) to get you started and keep you busy for a long time. 

At our school the kickboxing ads to our striking. The arnis takes what we do with our knives and sticks and not only gives us a slightly different take on it but also expands what is in the curriculum. The restraining techniques and grappling harmonize very nicely with kenpo principles. To me it's not about filling holes. If you take the curriculum literaly well than yes there are holes but I dont think it was intended to be that way. I think it's a guide to teach you about motion and give you some tools. Does it give you all the tools? No, But it does give you a HUGE amount of motion principles that you can apply to othe knife arts, stick arts, grappling arts etc that may have some of the physical tools not inluded in kenpo. 

Im actually am happy kenpo is the way it is. Ed Parker was a genius. Can you imagine how many techniques, forms, sets, drills, etc... we would have to memorize to have an extensive curriculum in kickboxing/Sayoc Kali/BJJ/Judo/Firearms training/tai chi/etc.........It was his way of giving us a well rounded system without a huge burden. We learn about motion,we learn how it CAN apply in some situations to get us started, it's up to us to see how it applies to a large number of circumstances. If we can't, than we have to go to grappling teachers or knife people. It's all in the application baby. Besides, many martial arts share the same principles of motion. They have to. The anatomy of a Kravmaga guy is no different than a Wing Chun guy. 

Just to give one example. Let's look at "leverage". I hope I spelled it right. Savate has the principle of leverage, BJJ does, Wing Chun does, boxing does, wrestling does, Kali does. The key is that each of these arts are specialists on how to use leverage in theie specialty field. Some may teach us about it while standing but far, standing but close, on the ground, with weapons. The intricate dos and dont's.

I think crosstraining is important if you dont have an instructor who has knowlege of how principles of motion apply in all ranges. I have been going on for some time now so I'm done. 

If you don't agree with me a fight to the death can be arranged. :asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

But, um, we've talked about it so much, um, I'm not sure I have anything left to say.  

Actually I do have something to say about why this is an important thread.

I was one of the instigators of the cross-training discussion on MartialTalk.

I started Kenpo back in 1973.  I trained in an orphan offshoot of Parker/Tracy.  The school I trained at closed at the end of 1994.  Since then, I've trained in 3 other Kenpo Dojos.  One doing the same system I studied.   One doing a Cerio-Kempo offshoot.  And briefly at a very prestigious EPAK school.  I stopped training in 2000 to start my family.  Late last year, I decided I wanted to start up again.

I researched several arts.  I researched developments in Martial arts training over the last 10 years.  I visited about 10 schools.

You know what I concluded?  

1)  Kenpo is a "traditional" martial art taught in much the same way as Aiki-jujitsu, Aikido, Japanese Karate, and Tae Kwon Do.  There were other arts that used a completely different approach:  Boxing, kick-boxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Judo, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

2)  Kenpo is a "stand-up" striking style without effective ground defense.

3)  Kenpo has more politics than ANY other style.  More associations, more 10th degrees, more disagreements over curriculum...

4)  Kenpo has more mumbo-jumbo than just about any other style including "Black Dot/White Dot", "Gaseous phase of motion",  "Belt knot goes to the side until..."  "The salutation must be done exactly like this..."  "Memorize the pledges for every belt",  "Marriage of Gravity" etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...Kenpoists spend a lot of time talking about concepts; maybe too much time.

5)  Kenpoists worship and revere Mr. Parker more than any other martial art reveres their founder (except for maybe Aikido).  

6)  Kenpo is one of the most extreme examples of a style with many "deadly and dangerous" techniques that can never be practiced against a resisting opponent.

7)  There are a lot of really husky Kenpo seniors.  Maybe Kenpo isn't the most rigorous workout--especially if you really understand it and are really efficient.

With all of these conclusions, I decided it was time to try something completely new and different.  I'd done some Shotokan and Aiki-jujitsu, and a little Escrima.  I had never done any serious grappling.  I signed up for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.  What an eye opener!  

I felt the need to shout out loud "THERE IS ANOTHER WAY"  "YOU'VE GOT TO TRY THIS"  "KENPOISTS:  GET OFF YOUR HIGH-HORSES!  YOU'RE TRAINING DOES NOT MAKE YOU INVULNERABLE."  I rudely shouted this on MartialTalk and the KenpoNet.  

And here we are.  

Kenpoists do need to cross-train.  Just like Americans need to travel abroad.  You've got to see that there are other ways and that the Kenpo way is not the only way.  You've got to see that there are actually a few aspects of Kenpo that are really pretty silly.   There are aspects of other arts (including BJJ) that are pretty silly too.  There are also techniques and approaches that are NOT in Kenpo.  You will never realize this unless you cross-train.

I also worry that by segregating this topic to this thread that the Kenpo-bigots who really need the cross-training message the most won't ever see it.


----------



## kkbb (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *But, um, we've talked about it so much, um, I'm not sure I have anything left to say.
> 
> Actually I do have something to say about why this is an important thread.
> ...


I believe what your trying to say is.... train or cross train... It doesn't matter...just think outside the box!


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

Thanks for boiling my ramble down to a single sentence.  The other thing I am trying to say is that we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously!


----------



## tarabos (Aug 19, 2003)

does anyone think that it would be a good idea to make these "insights" threads into sticky threads? i know they are here to serve the purpose of eliminating new threads about the same topic, but i would say that these threads are going to get lost just like all of the others. if that does happen, then yet another thread on this topic will be created and more complaining will ensue.

i'm not saying that we should go crazy with the sticky threads around here, but i do feel that these threads will not serve the purpose they are meant to if they get shoved down the list.


----------



## MJS (Aug 19, 2003)

OFK---  Excellent post!!  I think that you pretty much said it all! 

Mike


----------



## Michael Billings (Aug 19, 2003)

Just start a poll, those always seem to keep coming up.  Sticky Thread = Ichey thread.

I understand where you are coming from OFK, but some of us grapple just enough to know what it is about.  Or we did it in the 70's and 80's ... (and even some BJJ in the 90's.)  We are choosing what we want to do, not out of ignorance or arrogance ... but because we like it.  Whether the logical structure, "deadly" techniques , or ease of application as we get older and more proficient.   



> 3) Kenpo has more politics than ANY other style. More associations, more 10th degrees, more disagreements over curriculum...
> 
> 4) Kenpo has more mumbo-jumbo than just about any other style including "Black Dot/White Dot", "Gaseous phase of motion", "Belt knot goes to the side until..." "The salutation must be done exactly like this..." "Memorize the pledges for every belt", "Marriage of Gravity" etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...Kenpoists spend a lot of time talking about concepts; maybe too much time.
> 
> 5) Kenpoists worship and revere Mr. Parker more than any other martial art reveres their founder (except for maybe Aikido).



But other's say the same thing of their Arts - Politics, inflated Ranks, or curriculuum.

Now I do have a problem with the "Worship and revere" statement.  Those of us who knew him, as you did (?), know he was a genius, but not a person to worship or revere ... boy would he have something to say about that ... and it would be loud!! 

Concepts and theories in addition to the actual nomenclature are what set American Kenpo apart.  I did not have those in my 7 years of Chinese Kenpo, but have found them invaluable in the information that was conveyed to me, and by me to my students.  Now I agree that maybe it is more a case of "Too Much, Too Soon", and the beginner or outsider is often overwhelmed.

I just had to respond, just so yall would not feel too lonely over here.

-MB


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

Mike:  Thanks for agreeing with me.  Looks like we've been given our own church to preach in.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

Michael:  Thanks!  

I met Mr. Parker at a couple of seminars and at the Internationals, but his question when he saw people from my (Rod Martins') school(s) was usually "who are those guys?".  So I don't claim to have known him.    I am sure he never knew me by name.  I do believe that many take his word as gospel and try to make Kenpo decisions based on "what would Mr. Parker have done".  To me, that is a level of reverence well beyond what I see Judokas giving to Kano, or Shotokaners giving to Funakoshi, or even JKD'ers giving to Bruce Lee.

The terminology in Kenpo, in my not-so-humble opinion, IS way over the top.  Some of it is pretty good: Dimensional zone theory, checking, many others.  Some of it is just plain unecessary gobbledegook like Black Dot/White Dot.  The terminology does set Kenpo apart, but there are many Kenpo styles as well as Kajukenbo that are effective without the huge vocabulary list.  Our school tried to simplify the terminology and focus our energies on strong basics and solid contact.  Really makes me scratch my head to see the "Gaseous Phase of Motion" thread go on for 4 pages.  

I am really glad that you and other Kenpoists have had introductions to grappling.  This cross-training experience fills an important gap in Kenpo techniques and gives Kenpoists the ability to apply Kenpo principles in additional situations.  

But grappling isn't the only cross-training issue.  Training methodolgy is an important question as well.  I do think that spending more time on "alive" training drills and less time on Kata and cooperative technique drills could go a long way toward making Kenpo even more effective.  Many schools are moving this way, some are not.

I do appreciate MartialTalk's efforts to give us our own thread.  I do like Tarrabos suggestion to make this a sticky thread--although I can't imagine the majority here wanting to see the cross-training thread at the top of the list every time they visit.


----------



## twinkletoes (Aug 19, 2003)

OFK,

that was one of the best summations I've heard.  It included the most important one:  Kenpo is a TMA.  I don't think enough kenpoka realize that.  It has a set curriculum.  It promotes tradition over innovation.  It uses kata, and cooperative practice.  It contains some totally impractical ideas.  People who question the ideas are ridiculed by the seniors, instead of being shown why it should be so.  

We have become more traditional than those who the kenpo originators sought to improve over.  Kenpo WAS an innovation at the time.  But so was Shotokan, TKD, etc. when they started.  

~TT


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

TT:  Thank you and yes.  People forget that other "traditional" martial arts were developed in the 20th century.  This includes ALL Karate styles, Aikido, and several others.  Pictures of your founder don't have to be black & white in order for your art to be traditional!


----------



## Fastmover (Aug 19, 2003)

You guys are killing me with these new......cough ......old threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MJS (Aug 19, 2003)

I know---sounds like we are beating a dead horse, but like OFK said--this is a church that was given to us---The few, the proud---the crosstrainers!!!

Mike


----------



## Seig (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tarabos _
> *does anyone think that it would be a good idea to make these "insights" threads into sticky threads? i know they are here to serve the purpose of eliminating new threads about the same topic, but i would say that these threads are going to get lost just like all of the others. if that does happen, then yet another thread on this topic will be created and more complaining will ensue.
> 
> i'm not saying that we should go crazy with the sticky threads around here, but i do feel that these threads will not serve the purpose they are meant to if they get shoved down the list. *


I'll propose it to the other admins/mods and see what they have to say.  I think it is an idea with merit.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Aug 20, 2003)

What I find most funny here is in the cooperative partner thing...

I have a question for you, crosstraining advocates. What do you really advocate, cross-training? Different teaching methods? Because they're two different things and you're constantly mixing it up when talking about cross-traing.

Cooperative partner :rofl:


----------



## Kenpomachine (Aug 20, 2003)

What I find most funny here is in the cooperative partner thing...

I have a question for you, crosstraining advocates. What do you really advocate, cross-training? Different teaching methods? Because they're two different things and you're constantly mixing it up when talking about cross-traing.

Cooperative partner :roflmao:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 20, 2003)

Cross training is what made some of us aware of the benefits of training with fully-resisting partners.  Crosstraining can include either or both different techniques and different training methods.  I think we all benefit by learning new techniques and by learning new ways to practice and improve our current techniques.  So the answer is...both!

And yes.  It is funny.  I'm pretty funny.  I am at least as ridiculous as anyone else here.  Probably more so.  While I am very opinionated, I don't take myself too seriously and I am willing to laugh at my own inanity.  Also, while I'm reasonably well informed about Martial Arts, I do have a lot more to learn, I'm not that proficient--given my time in the arts, and most people on the forum could probably beat me to a pulp.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Aug 20, 2003)

See, we weren't talking the same language :rofl: :rofl: 

I understand cross-training as training different systems at the same time. Not working with different training methods, which I believe is what most teachers use so as not to have boring classes.

And if you so want a fully resisting partner, ask nicely. If they continue "cooperating" hit harder


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 20, 2003)

Machine:  You are right.  Cross-training they are different things.  You can do Kenpo training with a fully resisting parter, but it is not core to the style the way it is in boxing, kickboxing, Judo, and BJJ.  Those systems also have different techniques.  By crosstraining, you get the benefit of both new techniques and new training methods you can incorporate into your Kenpo practice.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Aug 20, 2003)

I see your point. But I also want to make sure that you realize that the training methodology depends on the person teaching, not the system, art or style. FWIW.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 20, 2003)

Kenpomachine:

training methodology depends both upon person and style.   For instance, some styles have no sparring, some have no Kata.  An instructor could introduce those missing methods into his style, but that would be somewhat unusual.   

Styles also have their emphasis.  I posted somewhere here (I think in the Developing Effective Techniques thread) that Kenpo innovated by practicing techniques independently from Kata and by introducing contact.  But (I think) most Kenpo schools don't teach you to execute Kenpo techniques against a fully resisting partner.  Sure, almost all Kenpo schools do generic Karate freestyle sparring, but not Kenpo technique sparring.   Kenpo technique practice is what makes Kenpo Kenpo.  Nobody does it like Kenpoists do.  If you go to most Kenpo schools, you will find very similar approaches to technique training.  Same if you go to a Judo club, Shotokan Dojo, or BJJ academy.  Instructors can make a big difference, but the style is a very key driver of training method.


----------



## twinkletoes (Aug 20, 2003)

Maybe we should call them something like this:

Crosslearning:  taking classes in multiple martial arts.  Learning multiple curricula.  Think "supplemental information"

Crosstraining:  developing skills in multiple styles, or varying approaches to martial art.  Think "supplemental skill development"

Crossapplying:  introducing the skills, ideas, or methods learned in one art/style into another, in order to alter the development of skills in the latter.  This can go both ways.  Think "co-beneficial development"

I think that we (the strong advocates of "crosstraining") are really saying is this:

Crosslearning is not entirely necessary.  It might be a good idea to learn some new techniques and add them to your repertoire.

Crosstraining is good for a martial artist who wants to be well-rounded.  It will give him or her skills in a variety of fields.

Crossapplying is necessary for 2 groups fo people:

1)  Martial Artists who crosstrain and feel their own training (as well as their students' training) would benefit from the idea exchange.

2)  Martial Artists of a single style who want their art to be effective in a broad range of circumstances.  

I should think that #1 is obvious.  #2 might be less obvious.  Here is why we advocate that so strongly:  

We believe that it's OK to study a single style, even for self-defense purposes.  We think there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  What we do object to, however, is the idea that being an expert in one style gives one the necessary knowledge to make judgements about another style.  I'll give you an example.

Often I see articles in magazines with Wing Chun practitioners showing how to beat a wrestler/grappler.  Usually it shows the "wrestler", who is another WC guy, executing the worst shoot or tie-up I've ever seen.  The senior WC guy then punches him in the face or elbows him, and he falls down.  

Well, speaking as one who trains with some wrestlers, if you ever tried to do this with them, you would land in a world of hurt.  It just doesn't work.  The WC guys don't know that, because they never tried it.  That's what I object to.  

I don't think anyone needs to go out there and get 5 black belts, or train in 20 styles, unless that's fun for that person.  If you like that, go for it.  

I think a person can train 1 or 2 styles, and if they train with enough variety of partners, and allow those partners to use whatever knowledge THEY have, everyone will grow into competent and effective martial artists.  

Now, this is not the same as bringing a wrestler to class and telling him not to use his wrestling.  If you make him play by your rules and take away his own personal advantages, then you lose the value of the experience.  However, if you just say "can you stop me from hitting you when I do this?" and see what he does, you will have your eyes opened.  Maybe he can, and maybe he can't.  But that's what the experience is for.

If you do this, you will learn 2 things:

1)  What the other guy might try to do to stop you from executing your game plan.

2)  Other ideas or approaches that could be translated over into the techniques of your original style.  

You will benefit vastly from these, without "changing" your base style or "crosstraining."  But firmly believe it behooves all of us to at least do some "crossapplying."

~TT


----------



## Brother John (Aug 20, 2003)

OFK & TT:
I understand where both of you are coming from, and sympathize. 
But for the sake of the argument, let me take this tact....

Crosslearning/Crosstraining and Crossapplying could all fall under the category of dissipation of effort/attention/energies. 

Wouldn't a person be better off to train in ONE thing, intensely, consistently for a LONG time???
If "No" (Which I presume you will say in light of all that's preceded) WHY?

What do you say?

Your Brother
John


----------



## twinkletoes (Aug 20, 2003)

Bro John,

You mention a point that is often raised.  Thank you for adding it in.  I appreciate you playing Devil's Advocate.  

I have to say that my personal view is that the question is a stupid one.     It's kind of like saying that we shouldn't practice off of punches because it takes time away from practicing against grabs.  What makes a martial art a complete package?  What makes it more or less than what it should be?

I think there IS one thing we should always train intensely, consistently, and for a long time:  self-defense in a large variety of realistic and plausible situations, approached in the most effective way possible.  

And I think that to do that requires getting second opinions.

Thank you for your post, my friend.  

~TT


----------



## Brother John (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *Bro John,
> 
> I have to say that my personal view is that the question is a stupid one.     It's kind of like saying that we shouldn't practice off of punches because it takes time away from practicing against grabs.  What makes a martial art a complete package?  What makes it more or less than what it should be?
> ~TT *



_STUPID???_  
Is that anyway to treat your brother???
   .........  
Just kiddin...
Anyway, I don't think it's stupid, I think that it's something that needs looked into. Maybe you feel the answer is obvious for you, but remember, we are talking about our individual choices in the way we train... your 'only' answer is YOUR only answer; and mine is mine. 

Currently, it's not mine. 

"It's kind of like saying that we shouldn't practice off of punches because it takes time away from practicing against grabs."
        Actually, it's not anything like saying that.   My art practices against punches, grabs, clubs, kicks, tackles, chokes, locks, knives and multiple attackers... and if I neglect any one of these my instructor and those I work out with will find that nerve and tweek it!!!!   :sniper: 

Try looking at it like this:
It's not a question of whether we should attend to other aspects of fighting...
It's not a question of whether we should look into what other arts/systems have to offer us...
The question is:
Do we train in more than one thing at one time in our lives..
OR
Do we train in and focus on gaining competency in one thing, using it as a base with which to interpret/assimilate other styles with...
This would be more logical I think. Take more time, but time's never been my concern in martial arts... I'm in this till I take my last kick and kick-off.
I think that Kenpo makes the IDEAL base, as it is founded in logic, we can then use not Kenpo... but what Kenpo gives us "LOGIC" to assimilate other elements from other places and ADD it to what we already know and are competent at. 

Just like this computer I'm at...
It's base is Windows....
Versatile, designed to have attatchments by making sertain universal parameters that other software can plug into...
while running "Internet Explorere" (as I am now) I'm still running Windows.
Assimilate Jujutsu INTO your Kenpo Katate.
Assimilate Kali INTO your Kenpo.
Assimilate Tasmanian nose proding... INTO your Kenpo.
AFTER getting advanced...and REALLY good at YOUR KENPO.

Please let me know how that last one goes...The Tasmanian stuff is deadly.

Your Brother
John


----------



## MJS (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *OFK & TT:
> I understand where both of you are coming from, and sympathize.
> But for the sake of the argument, let me take this tact....
> ...



Bro John--First off, I love the pic!!  

Ok, in response to spending time learning one thing.  I see where you are coming from.  Once you reach BB, the journey does not end--it actually it just beginning!  I'm only speaking for myself here, but I look at it like this.  I'm not getting any younger.  There is so much out there that I would love to do.  I originally started the arts for self confidence/defense.  I had the chance during the course of my training to see a few different arts.  Regardless of how long you are training in that one base art, if what you are looking for is not there, then why continue to devote 100% of your time looking, if you're never going to find it unless you begin to look at another art?  Your quality of training depends on your Inst.  You mention that your art addresses many different things.  While Kenpo does the same, there are also things that it does not address.  In order to round out my training, I've chosen to look outside of Kenpo.  I work with a great group of BJJ guys, including TT, who gets his instruction from a fantastic grappler.  I do my Arnis with a super group as well, and the Inst. gears the class towards what i'm looking for.  As I have said before, crosstraining isn't for everybody.  Some like it and some dont.  

Anyway, enough of my rambling for now! 

Mike


----------



## twinkletoes (Aug 21, 2003)

Brother John,

I think we're on an interesting point here.  After I post this I'll go start a new thread.  

I don't mean that integrating, say, BJJ is something that should  be included.  I don't think there is any one thing that EVERYONE needs to add.  I think there are _ considerations_ that everyone should probably make, which are "am I addressing common situations, which seem to include standup, clinch range, the ground, weapons, and multiple assailants?"  It seems to me that these are things any art/style/system hoping to address self-defense should include.

Now, I like your windows example.  When they upgrade Windows, how do they decide what the new version needs?  Doesn't that mean bringing in new ideas or different approaches?  Are the new ideas taken from somewhere else?  I mean, many people are claiming that XP ripped off some ideas from Apple.  Does that mean that Microsoft had a base idea, and then applied Apple's ideas?  Does it mean that those ideas are not really "windows", but apple features in a Windows operating system?  What is the difference between a new advance that is "truly windows" and one that is not?

Oh, and repeat that last paragraph with "kenpo" instead of "windows."  If you add, say, an elbow destruction, is that really foreign to kenpo?  Is it FMA within Kenpo?  Is it now a part of kenpo?  What if you add a technique that uses it?

~TT


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 21, 2003)

Brother John:  You have an excellent point.  There are only 24 hours in a day!  You can only do so many things at once!

Here is what I recommend:

Beginners should stick with one art to get a base and develop some fundamentals.

Intermediate students (Blue/Green in Kenpo) should be ENCOURAGED to attend some seminars to gain exposure to other styles and should be SHOWN a few non-Kenpo techniques (e.g. mount escape, guard pass, armbar, hip throw).  

Advanced students (Kenpo Brown Belts) should be REQUIRED to attend some seminars and DRILL some non-Kenpo techniques Even the local TKD McDojo (West Coast TKD) in Northern California does this!

Black Belts should REGULARLY attend seminars featuring other styles and DRILL in other techniques.  This doesn't mean a daily or even weekly commitment to cross-training.  It means a seminar every 3 or 4 months and practicing some techniques a couple times a month.  

Now, for those of us who have taken their style as far as they can (for me, I will never get any better at Kenpo than I was in the early 90's for a lot of reasons many of which have nothing to do with Kenpo per se), switching gears and starting over in a new style could be a worthwhile endeavor.


----------



## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 21, 2003)

Old Fat Kenpoka

There is a really good Kenpo Camp that goes on in Philly every year that invites instructors from everything from Sayoc Kali, various grappling styles, different kenpo organizations to things that deal with meditation, tai chi etc... I went a few years ago and I have to say it was unforgetable. 

Your last post reminded me of it, and I had to bring it up because I thought it was great. I guess it fits in with this whole crosstraining thing. Ill get the info and post again.


----------



## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 21, 2003)

Ok the camp was back in 02 and was hosted by Dawud Muhammad and breaks down like this.

Kevin Kuliga- various finger locks
Larry Tatum- kenpo techniques
Francisco Vigoroux- advanced footwork 
Mike Lambert- extensions
Lee Epperson- Ground work
Dawud Muhammad- knives
Jill Tatum- stretching & meditating

People from everywhere were there. Martial Artists from California, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and Chile were there.

If this is the type of thing that you are recommending people try, well than you have my support because this was one of the most awsome experiences I have had in the martial arts. Lots of sweat and on only 3 hours of sleep.  I hurt the next day.


----------



## MJS (Aug 21, 2003)

Sounds like a cool camp!!! 

Mike


----------



## Michael Billings (Aug 21, 2003)

Good to hear from you man.



> *Tasmanian nose proding...*



These are the "secret" Techniques I have been waiting for all these years.

-Michael


----------



## Michael Billings (Aug 21, 2003)

... actually, not to agree with you or anything, but your training "agenda" actually sounds close to what we do.  And I do not advocate cross-training, but I do certainly encourage students to go to seminars and camps.  At camps we have everyone from Boom-Boom Mancini to Machado in.  We have had Wally Jay seminars and Bill Wallace seminars.  

I guess what I do is what you might consider cross-training ... but I don't.  Nor would I require it at Brown.  Exposure to other Arts lets you develop Kenpo "solutions" to the various styles.  You figure out real quick what works and what does not when grappling with a BJJ guy.  You learn from him/her, or a greco-roman, or Silat guy, but it does not mean "Practice " their Art ... or do their drills.  

I don't know, I guess I want to give students the freedom to explore and be exposed to other things, while I chose to teach American Kenpo, and graft or expand upon my interpretation of the Art.  The standard is set by my Association, then anything extra I require or want to do, is up to me.  We have some great BJJ guys and full contact kickboxers training in Kenpo, but to them, it is Kenpo that they would fight on the street with.  They are very articulate regarding their reasons why. 

1.  The street is not the place to be rolling around on the ground trying to get a submission (unless you are law enforcement and reasonable force is the issue.)

2.  Kickboxers and boxers limit targets and weapons.  They say that if you train that way, that is what you will do on the street.  They clearly deliniate the conditioning and power you get, but want to maintain the Kenpo response patterns (self-defense techniques) against multiple attackers and weapons.  You do what you practice.  They are concerned about the lack of variable responses when they are getting ready for a fight.  When not fighting it is a little kickboxing and a lot of Kenpo.

Just my perspective.  Exposure v. Cross-Training, two entirely different things.

-MB


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 21, 2003)

I agree with you Mr. Billings!

Exposure and cross-training are different.  But after one is exposed, one needs to retain and develop the new knowledge.  That is where cross-training adds value.    

I also agree that Kenpo is the best for street-defense.  Rolling on the sidewalk, parking lot, or next to a bar stool is a bad place to be!  

It is the development of skills in grappling, kickboxing, and weapons that requires cross-training.  If a Kenpo school can deliver that, great!  If not, then guest instructors or visits to other schools can help advanced students become more well rounded.

Our Kenpo school joined ATAMA (American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts) and regularly attended seminars where we were exposed to Aiki-Jujitsu, kickboxing, TKD, Kung Fu, Shotokan, Arnis, small-circle jujitsu, accupressure, and even herbal medicine.  We also had Duke Moore come in and teach all of the Black Belts and advanced students Zen Budokai Aiki-jujitsu on a regular basis for many months.  This was a great complement to our Kenpo with lots of great finishes that made wonderful technique extensions.  One of our most senior Black Belts was also competing in Escrima.  He taught basic stick fighting techniques on Saturdays. We were all the better for both the exposure and the cross-training and it didn't detract from our Kenpo.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *
> Now, this is not the same as bringing a wrestler to class and telling him not to use his wrestling.  If you make him play by your rules and take away his own personal advantages, then you lose the value of the experience.  However, if you just say "can you stop me from hitting you when I do this?" and see what he does, you will have your eyes opened.  Maybe he can, and maybe he can't.  But that's what the experience is for.
> 
> ...



Here I agree, but it goes both ways, why should we go by their rules? AS you say, if you try to play by their rules, they won't be learning from YOUR experience.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Assimilate Jujutsu INTO your Kenpo Katate.
> Assimilate Kali INTO your Kenpo.
> Assimilate Tasmanian nose proding... INTO your Kenpo.
> ...



:asian: :asian: 
That's exactly what I think to. Very well put into words, brother John


----------



## twinkletoes (Aug 21, 2003)

> Here I agree, but it goes both ways, why should we go by their rules? AS you say, if you try to play by their rules, they won't be learning from YOUR experience.



I don't think we should go by their rules.  I think you should play your game, they should play theirs, and we should see what happens.  That's how you find out if a) your gameplan really works against theirs, b) their gameplan really works against yours, and c) everything in the middle.  you also learn d) what ideas are present in both gameplans, and e) what ideas you each might "borrow" from each other to try.

The trick is being able to let go of your familiar rules and go to a system that is much more lenient for the both of you.

This past weekend I got to do some light sparring against someone with an extensive JKD, Muay Thai, and Savate background.  My own sparring experience has not included leg kicks.  Let's just say it was SERIOUSLY eye-opening.  I had some idea how different it would be, but as far as the actual tactics go, I had no idea how much it would change my approach, both offensively and defensively.

~TT


----------



## Kenpomachine (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *I don't think we should go by their rules.  I think you should play your game, they should play theirs, and we should see what happens.  That's how you find out if a) your gameplan really works against theirs, b) their gameplan really works against yours, and c) everything in the middle.  you also learn d) what ideas are present in both gameplans, and e) what ideas you each might "borrow" from each other to try. *



I'll but this (I think exactly the same, but I don't consider it cross-training, you see)



> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *The trick is being able to let go of your familiar rules and go to a system that is much more lenient for the both of you.*



I agree with letting go familiar rules as they only make you use a part of your arsenal and not all of them. I'll remain within the boundaries of my system, though, because that's were I have the proficiency. Sparring with them will only help me to expand those boundaries further away 



> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *This past weekend I got to do some light sparring against someone with an extensive JKD, Muay Thai, and Savate background.  My own sparring experience has not included leg kicks.  Let's just say it was SERIOUSLY eye-opening.  I had some idea how different it would be, but as far as the actual tactics go, I had no idea how much it would change my approach, both offensively and defensively.
> 
> ~TT *



I have also trained with TKDist, and I don't see it. We share the same weapons and we are more used to use the hands as well. It was enlightening for them receiving punches to the head.:rofl: :rofl: 

Now seriously, I also learnt from them some things, but that was only because the teacher was a good one who knew his stuff and used a big variety of drills and kicks we usually don't train so often, and also helped me to avoid a clash between styles.

But I still think it was more of incorporating training drills into my style than proper crosstraining.

JJ may be different, because it's not so heavily competition oriented. And they try to close the distance early on.  So then, it's a matter of tactics and strategy and countering that strategy. 

And whatever drill I find useful, I may incorporate into my kenpo training. That's what semminar are for, to get new ideas to work on 

Btw, have I said before that I have always wanted to train traditional Ju-jutsu? Problem is, I have delicate joints  :rofl:


----------



## twinkletoes (Aug 21, 2003)

> I have also trained with TKDist, and I don't see it. We share the same weapons and we are more used to use the hands as well.



Then it's time to spar with someone good at Savate!

Let me tell you, I don't share the same tools as the genteleman I sparred with the other day.  I have never been the victim of leg-kick combinations with such EASE as I was on Monday.  If we had been sparring any harder than 25%, I would have been knocked down several times.  

I do a lot of sparring as it is, but going against someone who uses other weapons, which are normally outside my rule system (and not by MY choice) was enlightening.  It's an experience I need to have much more often.

~TT


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 21, 2003)

TT:  You and I could be twins!  The first time I sparred a MT guy I thought I was going to die!  He beat my legs to a pulp--he didn't protect his groin though so I eventually paid him back!


----------



## twinkletoes (Aug 21, 2003)

Man, I'm lucky he was being nice.  And I thought I was used to getting hit with posture changes and base-destructions!  I've never been sent wobbly like I was in those 10 minutes.  Often I would get kick three times by one foot (he'd hit my left, right, and left again, all as I tried to shift my weight to get away).

What truly impressed me was his ease in determining where my weight woudl be headed, and sending it back the other way with a well-placed thigh kick.  I felt like my feet were nailed down!

Talk about fun! 

~TT


----------



## stickarts (Aug 21, 2003)

its amazing how the addition of one technique can change the scope of the fight if you aren't used to training that way. for example adding groin shots if you aren't used to it, or sweeps.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 22, 2003)

Frank:  Well said!  And welcome to the church of cross-training!  

An important extrapolation of your point is that if you never train with any of these other arts, you never get to see what you've been missing.


----------



## Brother John (Aug 23, 2003)

> You mention that your art addresses many different things. While Kenpo does the same, there are also things that it does not address. In order to round out my training, I've chosen to look outside of Kenpo.



I think that that's the most common reason people in Kenpo look outside of Kenpo.... grappling. 


I understand. 
In the AKKI we have grappling work, it's very interesting. 
For me, Kenpo has what I want.
Will I look elsewhere later?
Maybe, I doubt it, but I could. 
We'll cross(train) that bridge when we come to it.


Your Bro.
John


----------



## lonekimono (Sep 17, 2003)

Now i know this has been in here somewhere before? but let me put it out again(only because i did not see it).
Over the years i have had alot of people pass though my school
(so have alot of you) but what i wonder is when someone comes in and before they join they tell you that "oh yes i have a (whatever) belt in this art. and i did the the other art to".
  Well i had this man come in and he told me that he  had a blackbelt in  soo-bak-do and that  he really wanted to do kenpo,i say "WHY" and then he went on to tell me about how he had watched Speakman move his hands so fast,and then he said 
"is that real"? well anyway this man trained at the school for 2 month's and while he was there he kept telling how hard this 
 N,bow and front bow stance is and this is just hard for me to do it, and i say to him  "YOU CAN DO IT" 
Well after the 2 months he never came back,and i got to thinking if the man has a rank in his art and has been it it for 8 years stay there. he was happy   but not when he left.
so that is why i say  IS ONE ENOUGH?


----------



## MisterMike (Sep 17, 2003)

Seems to me that a lot of the old masters were well versed in several arts. This may not be a necessity today, but if you are only going to train in one primary art, you should at least have an understanding of what else is out there.

At least if you want to be able to communicate with other martial artists. We're not all going to be masters. People like to train for different reasons. Exploring the other arts will only make you better though.


----------



## Kempo Guy (Sep 17, 2003)

I think it depends on the reasons of why you train...


----------



## theletch1 (Sep 17, 2003)

I don't believe one is enough because I don't believe there is one art that teaches everything there is to teach or teaches every concept in such a way that I can get it through my thick skull.  Many arts teach the same thing but a little differently or with a slightly different methodology.  Sometimes just training with a different instructor in the same art can make things click better but other times it's good to train in a completely different art to get a different angle on things.  I don't believe in hopping from style to style every six months but I do think that after a certain level it's o.k. to step outside the box and try other things.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Sep 17, 2003)

One art is plenty, because all the good arts are, at a certain level of expertise, equal. We shouldn't be blaming the art for our failures, usually.

However, many people won't stay in one art and push towards that point. They get restless, which is fine. They want other things, which is OK. They claim that an art like good kenpo "doesn't have," certain things, which is wrong but perfectly OK for them to decide.

I'd add that for some, "studying another art," means, "I took a couple of classes and a weekend seminar."

I'd also add that I'm reading about other arts, and learning a lot. I just don't think of myself as skilled in them, and I really can't be rushin' around...barely enough time/energy to do kenpo...


----------



## Kempo Guy (Sep 17, 2003)

If you are training for self-defense then one art is NOT enough. There is NO WAY that one art is 'complete'. There are styles that have a better (read more efficient) delivery system than others for certain situations. If someone thinks one art offers everything then you are naive at best... 

Having said this, a large part of training for SD is about HOW you train. Training with aliveness against resisting opponenets will get you pretty far...

Then again, if someone is not training for SD then one art is probably more than enough. These days I train more for character development (Ningen Keisei) than anything else as I primarily practice and train in a traditional Japanese style.

KG


----------



## psi_radar (Sep 17, 2003)

Hi, first post here. Kenpo is really my second art, I was a junior-high and high-school wrestler. I'd have to say that students taking Kenpo or other striking arts would be wise to study a whole other category of fighting--groundfighting--if they want to really round out their skills. Wrestling, Ju-jitsu, shootfighting, whatever. Certainly skilled Kenpoists aren't totally helpless on the ground, but should learn some basic skills at least--they might meet up with a groundfighter someday. I'd give the opposite advice to a groundfighter. 

Since I consider myself a martial artist first and a Kenpoist second, I don't lock myself down with one particular paradigm of fighting. If it works, use it. I use a padua kappala (sp?) from Kuntao Silat as an addition in Kenpo and a staple in Systema. It's a technique that is simple and works great under a lot of circumstances. Plus, being exposed to new stuff is just fun and invigorating.

An analogy that might help elucidate my point--America is a great country and you can spend a lifetime seeing it, but if you had the opportunity to travel abroad, would you take it?


----------



## MJS (Sep 17, 2003)

Again, it all depends on what the person wants to get out of the art.  It is true, that there is no perfect art.  If that was the case, then everybody would be doing it!  I dont think that after studying art A for 15yrs, that you need to stop and start with art B.  Then after that go do C for another 5.  Do some people do that? Yes.  Does it work for that person?  Who knows--it all depends on the person doing it, considering we are all different.  However, considering that there is so much out there, it is good to look outside of the box as theletch1 said, and get a feel for the other things out there.  

Mike


----------



## lonekimono (Sep 17, 2003)

Well i have to tell you that i have only one art and that's KENPO
not that i don't know about the other's out there,and yes i have friends who do other kind's of martial arts and some time's we would get together and train,But my MOTHER art is kenpo.
:asian:


----------



## MA-Caver (Sep 17, 2003)

I was about to post a question out to the general forum members out there to query about any thoughts and desires to study another style/art, if so then which one? 
From my understanding most instructors seem to frown on cross-training in different styles. Why hasn't been made clear and my only (tongue in cheek) speculation is that they don't want their student's money to go to anyone else. But serious speculation is that it may hinder/alter the student's teachings/perspective of their first art, which ever one that may be. 
Of all the different ones that are out there it can be confusing for the novice or beginner. Comments here rightly said that they need to search out what they desire to learn from said chosen art.  If merely SD then finding the right one that fits their ideal of SD should be reasonably simple. 
If searching for inner enlightenment or self-awareness then finding the right one with the right philosophy can be difficult. 
I've studied a bit of many different arts. Though I've no formal schooling in any of them I still call myself a martial artist because of years of training and discipline with each one. When you're a poor man you get what you can whenever-wherever you can get it. It's my only excuse for not having a belt. But I don't feel that it makes me any less of a martial artist because what I have learned has effectively done what it was supposed to.  Protect me and enlighten me. 
So the question of: is one enough? It depends upon the individual. But I've learned that if one is to apply what they learn out in the real world in regards to SD then learning different styles is important because not all situations will be the same. 
If one does not anticipate conflict outside the Dojo or tournament arena then staying with the "Mother-art" is a good idea. 


:asian:


----------



## don bohrer (Sep 17, 2003)

We have our kids in school learning so much during their formative years it's incredible. So why end it? Keep learning and enjoy your journey! Just remember that life is short and you should have no regrets when you get to the end of it. Now with that said I would add that quantity doesn't mean quality. It's not the art anyway, but more the way and how you train. 

don


----------



## Seig (Sep 18, 2003)

Is One Enough and Insights into Kenpo and Cross Training merged.  It's the same topic.
Seig
-MT Moderator-


----------



## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2003)

I still wait for somebody to tell me what's NOT in good kenpo.

Why blame the art for our failures of imagination and practice and understanding?

Sorry, guess I'm just, "naive at best."

Of course, if ya wanna cross, cross. Just realize why you're doing what you're doing. Nothing wrong with it, probably.


----------



## lonekimono (Sep 18, 2003)

Hey Seig you have a way with words :asian:


----------



## MJS (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MACaver _
> 
> 
> > From my understanding most instructors seem to frown on cross-training in different styles. Why hasn't been made clear and my only (tongue in cheek) speculation is that they don't want their student's money to go to anyone else. But serious speculation is that it may hinder/alter the student's teachings/perspective of their first art, which ever one that may be.
> ...


----------

