# How should *Grandmaster* title be handled?



## webpage20022003 (May 25, 2003)

we have been discussing about *grandmaster* title here. I decide to set up a poll to see HOW *grandmaster* title should be given

PLease look at my 4 options and vote only 1. Thank you.

Please feel free to express yourself if needed


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

None of the above. I think it should ONLY be given to the creator of the specific art form. Only 1 Grandmaster all the rest are students. Just my opinion though.

:asian:


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## webpage20022003 (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *None of the above. I think it should ONLY be given to the creator of the specific art form. Only 1 Grandmaster all the rest are students. Just my opinion though.
> 
> :asian: *



GOOD POINT. This forum only gives me 4 options. I will ask the administrator to give me 1 more Option that is "NONE of the above"

i'm sure this will be the last option i add to my poll.

thanks


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *GOOD POINT. This forum only gives me 4 options. I will ask the administrator to give me 1 more Option that is "NONE of the above"
> 
> i'm sure this will be the last option i add to my poll.
> ...


 Your welcome:asian:


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## webpage20022003 (May 25, 2003)

Important update:

I PM the moderators here about adding last option "ONLY the Founder of Art deserves it". We will have 5 options to choose including the last option.

thank you for participating. Please vote.

discussion should be welcomed here


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## Elfan (May 25, 2003)

"Senior Grand Master" was the title to be reserved for the founder of the art (Mr. Parker).


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## Kenpomachine (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *"Senior Grand Master" was the title to be reserved for the founder of the art (Mr. Parker). *



Agreed, but since Mr. Parker prefered being just Mr. Parker, there shouldn't even be such a title, should it?

And Gran Master only for those 10ths who need it for their own reasons, as the title is a redundacy.


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## Billy Lear (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *"Senior Grand Master" was the title to be reserved for the founder of the art (Mr. Parker). *



*WRONG!* 

I have to disagree with you on this one. Grandmaster was the term reserved for Mr. Parker. Senior Master of the Arts was the term to be used by any other tenth degree in our system. (Look on the top of page 16, Ed Parker's Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, it has the ranking system outlined the way that Mr. Parker wanted it.)   

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS


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## arnisador (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *GOOD POINT. This forum only gives me 4 options. I will ask the administrator to give me 1 more Option that is "NONE of the above"*



I have done this. Let me know if you'd prefer the "Only the founder" form instead.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## webpage20022003 (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I have done this. Let me know if you'd prefer the "Only the founder" form instead.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



Everything is fine. You do an excellence job. Thank you so much


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## Kirk (May 25, 2003)

I don't care, I just think there should be some consistancy.
Mr Tatum has a large organization, but still teaches the same
curriculum of Kenpo that Mr Parker was teaching.  I hear that Mr 
Pick has created something extremely different  from the 
curriculum Mr Parker left us with.  If we're calling Senior  
Grandmaster the founder of the art, then Mr Pick is Senior 
Grandmaster of his organization (UKF???), but a Grandmaster of
kenpo.   Just like Mr Sullivan .. Senior Grandmaster of the Karate
Connection, and a Grandmaster of American Kenpo.

Just the opinion of a purple belt.


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## Brother John (May 25, 2003)

> Look on the top of page 16, Ed Parker's Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, it has the ranking system outlined the way that Mr. Parker wanted it



True my friend, BUT then there's the Encyclopedia of American Kenpo.... written by the same great man.... it says it differently I believe.

Your Brother
John


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## Billy Lear (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *True my friend, BUT then there's the Encyclopedia of American Kenpo.... written by the same great man.... it says it differently I believe.
> 
> Your Brother
> John *



The encyclopedia was put out after he died. Sorry. Some of the stuff in there is incorrect. :asian:


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *The encyclopedia was put out after he died. Sorry. Some of the stuff in there is incorrect. :asian: *


 Mr.Lear if you would name in specific, what you "believe" is incorrect in the Encyclopedia and please state your sources for this information. We need facts not fiction.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## KenpoDave (May 25, 2003)

If your son is a father, you are a grandfather.  If your student is a master, then you are a grandmaster.

:asian: 
Dave


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## Billy Lear (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Mr.Lear if you would name in specific, what you "believe" is incorrect in the Encyclopedia and please state your sources for this information. We need facts not fiction.
> 
> :asian: KenpoDragon *



The rank as it is written in the encyclopedia is incorrect for one... The date that it was printed is indicated in the book (and that is after Mr. Parker died). As for fiction... I'm not feeding you fiction. Ask Dennis Conatser about this error. He can, and has identified them among others.

Look in both Books and tell me which one is right Kenpo Dragon.


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

Here is the exact words from The Encyclopedia of Kenpo.

Black Belt Degrees: First Degree is Junior Instructor; second Degree is Associate Instructor; third Degree is Head Instructor; fourth Degree is Senior Instructor; fifth Degree is Associate Professor; sixth Degree is Professor; seventh Degree is Senior Professor; eighth Degree is Associate Master of the Arts; ninth Degree is Master of the Arts; and tenth Degree isGrand Master of the Arts. The tenth Degree founder and head of the system is known as the Senior Grand Master of the Arts. Only upon the founder of the system may this title be bestowed.


This is the exact quote from the book, I have not changed or altered anything.

 :asian: KenpoDragon


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *The rank as it is written in the encyclopedia is incorrect for one... The date that it was printed is indicated in the book (and that is after Mr. Parker died). As for fiction... I'm not feeding you fiction. Ask Dennis Conatser about this error. He can, and has identified them among others.
> 
> Look in both Books and tell me which one is right Kenpo Dragon. *


 Mr.Lear I never stated that you were making this up, I did however ask you for proof of your allegations. By the way just because something was printed after Mr.Parker had passed does not mean that it was not what he intended. I do not know Mr.Conatser, but since he has identified them to you, I ask you to identify them to everyone else.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## Billy Lear (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Mr.Lear I never stated that you were making this up, I did however ask you for proof of your allegations. By the way just because something was printed after Mr.Parker had passed does not mean that it was not what he intended. I do not know Mr.Conatser, but since he has identified them to you, I ask you to identify them to everyone else.
> 
> :asian: KenpoDragon *



I'll ask Ed Parker Jr. later on tonight for the entire errata of the book. Since he primarily worked on the book. Maybe later I can post it.

Hasta,
Billy :asian:


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *I'll ask Ed Parker Jr. later on tonight for the entire errata of the book. Since he primarily worked on the book. Maybe later I can post it.
> 
> Hasta,
> Billy :asian: *


 Sounds good, I look forward to reading your post.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## webpage20022003 (May 25, 2003)

Please VOTE because your vote is counted even though you DON'T care or DISAGREE with other OR don't want to tell other which option you VOTED.

If your friends are in Kempo/Kenpo community, please tell them to vote as well.

This POLL should not be limited to American Kenpo. I would like to see everybody who learns Kempo/Kenpo should be able to have their say by voting

Again, you don't have to tell anybody which OPTION you CHOSE.

If you have an opinion, please feel free to express it. Keep your idea and mind FLOWING.

Thank you very much for participating.


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## webpage20022003 (May 26, 2003)

This POLL will be ENDED on 5/31/03 because there is no reason to keep this POLL run for YEARS.

Please vote if you hadn't done so.  It would be nice to see more people to vote.

:asian:


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## webpage20022003 (May 26, 2003)

does anybody have an opinion about option number 5 "None of the above" ?

what am i asking is what *Area* "none of the above" includes or covers ?

when we answer this question, it will help other have a better understand so that they can vote.

Keep the discussion going and keep the idea flowing as well.

Don't forget to remind other to vote  Many thanks


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## webpage20022003 (May 27, 2003)

24 people VOTED already ??? Good job

the race is very close.....keep voting if you haven't done so


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## Elfan (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *I'll ask Ed Parker Jr. later on tonight for the entire errata of the book. Since he primarily worked on the book. Maybe later I can post it.
> 
> Hasta,
> Billy :asian: *



Did you manage to get a postable copy of the errata?


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## Seig (Jun 10, 2003)

WhenI got my copy of the encyclopedia, I called Mr.  Conatser about thgis very issue.  The encyclopedia and Infinite Insights contradict one another.  The answer Mr. Conatser gave me was that the encyclopedia at teh time of Mr. Parker's death was still a rough draft/collection of notes.  It was a project he planned on getting back to.  After his passing, Mr. Parker, jr and others compiled the notes and rough draft and put them together in a prinatble format.  As Mr. Conatser put it to me, in this instance, Infinite Insighrs is correct and the encyclopedia is incorrect.


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 8, 2003)

Personally, I think this silly title should be handled with Ed Wynn's eleven-foot pole--the one he invented for people you wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 12, 2003)

Robert, are you seeking shelter from the KenpoNet trolls over here?  
I do happen to agree with you.  The Kenpo community continues to humiliate itself with the rank and title stuff.


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 12, 2003)

Like, "OFK," which in its way is a title suggestive of wisdom and superiority?

Look, Alan, lay off, "the kenpo community." I really don't mean to be unkind, and I'm prob'ly being a bit snappish ("Michael Presario," my left...), but why not just pick on particular examples--which, I'm sorry to say, won't be at all hard to find? If you must go after something systemic, why not trace things back to their sources, or try? I have.

Or why not try something more personally useful--examine all the BS in BJJ. I've certainly heard that the Gracies are nice folks--and I've also heard that lots of the people in BJJ are not. I can't help but find the "unlimited," events fascinating--but you know, since a) they are, in the end, sport--many would argue that they're contradictory to real martial arts, b) done primarily to make money...well, see what I mean?

I'm glad you're happy studying. I honestly am. Truth to tell, there're lots of holes in me kenpo, including grappling--I just don't expect to patch 'em all up, this incarnation. And I at least got your point--so for cripes' sake, can we move on to something else now?

Here, I'll say it: in addition to being a great martial artist, a genius-level teacher, a good writer, and an extraodinary martial arts theorist, Mr. Parker was also often a pretty-much-shamless self-promoter. We are still stuck with all of that, good and icky. 

Is that enough, Mr. Worthman?

Hey, incidentally, anyody know what, "Mr." is short for?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 12, 2003)

Robert,  I can't disagree with you here either.  I don't think the "Old Fat" part of my name is supposed to establish me as a font of wisdom, more likely, a crumudgeonly couch potato.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Dec 1, 2003)

The question this question brings to me is what qualifies a person to be a grandmaster?

It seems that everytime i look around there is a grandmaster here and there. There are many of them when you look at their credentials the highest they ever got would be 1st or 2nd deg.

I am not trying to put anyone down.

But, I just wonder what qualifies a person to be called grand master. Is it their time, contribution, effort, how many people they have promoted ? 

If someone creates a system I guess they can call themselves anything they want. But, shouldnt there be some type of requirements that need to be met ?

I remember here in chicago some friends of mine were studying years ago with a supposed grand master. But, when they looked into his background it was all fasle.

Soon after the guy packed up and left.

The title "Grandmaster" is not something to play with.


Chicago Green Dragon
:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 1, 2003)

> But, I just wonder what qualifies a person to be called grand master. Is it their time, contribution, effort, how many people they have promoted ?


If you only go by how many people you pomote the title mans little. any fool can make up a system and promote people ith useless rank. For that matter anyone in a "legit" system theat has a small amount of rank can turn out hundreds of usless black belts and keep that $$$ rolling in.
Time within a system may not make that big a difference either. Some folks can be in a system 20 yars and still not know squat about what its about


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Dec 1, 2003)

Good points

so then what qualifies a person the have that title ?


Chicago Green Dragon
:asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 10, 2003)

When I was 12, I asked my Sensei:  "What color belt does a 10th degree wear:  Black or Red?"  He answered "Any color he wants".

It seems that the main qualifications are 1) being good enough that somebody wants to call you "Grandmaster" and 2) having the chutzpah to let them do so.


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## michaeledward (Dec 12, 2003)

My instructor is 'Master'.
His instructor is 'Grand Master'
His instructor is 'Great Grand Master'
His instructor is 'Great Great Grand Master'.
:rofl:  :rofl:


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## Michael Billings (Dec 12, 2003)

I could foresee someone, especially if you promote multiple generations of Black Belts, being alive and called: 

Great Great Great Great Great Grand Master

At some point, for me, the honorific loses some of it's meaning.  We can all relate to our Grandfather (Sigung), or Great Grandfather, but much beyond that becomes meaningless.

The Chinese use SIJO (Teacher-ancestor), meaning  the teacher of the teacher's teacher. Sometimes used to mean the founder of a Chinese martial art style. Sometimes used as Tai sijo meaning great teacher-ancestor.

Interesting in a confusing kind of way.  The Japanese have an entirely different way of looking at it, they look at rank, and then at stature in the organization, or "founder" status (Soke-hood, if there is such a word.)

-Michael


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 12, 2003)

Funny how in the early days of American martial arts people sought out a teacher.  Later they looked for a Master.  Recently people sought to study under a Grandmaster.  Now that's not even good enough.

It's also funny how as technology evolves it becomes easier for martial artists to join associations and gain titles via mail-order, video training, and over the internet.

Perhaps the most important criteria for Grandmastership will be having the best website?   Thinking...thinking...you know...Micheal Billings:  you ARE a Grandmaster!


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 12, 2003)

Hey, I know---we'll use exponents. You know (can't figure out the superscript numbers)--GrandCubed, etc.

This is in keeping with a theory I've been working on about some promotions---clearly, they're getting together with their buddies and adding the exponents...as in, a 4th and a 2nd can promote the fourth to sixth...

I personally think that ALL this crap oughta be saved for ceremonial occasions...you know, like Class A uniforms or dress blues....

And I quite agree, and in cheesy terms too...what was that movie, "The Lost Kingdom?" About the Monkey King? With that guy from, "Dharma and Greg?"
In that, there's a claim that there IS no higher title than, "teacher." 

OK, OK, self-aggrandizing. But I can't even stand it when a friend of mine who's doing kung fu calls her teacher "Master," and apparently that's traditional in the style....


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## Michael Billings (Dec 12, 2003)

They tried to call me that at a Camp where I was the guest instructor.  I explained that mastery of something does not equate with being a Master.  Kenpo being a little different, I briefly explained our titles, Mr. Billings was good enough ... do you ever *FEEL* like a master?  Not even after 25 years in Kenpo do I feel like one, a very tenured student maybe.  

-Michael

PS - The ended up calling me Sifu, for those that just could not let it go. <<sigh>>


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 12, 2003)

I think there should be only ONE grandmaster in any system.
All others in the system must take a back seat and wait their time.
I belive this title should only be used IF a system has been in exsistance for 50 -100  years minimun. I  know thats a big jump in years but If you create the system and it exsists for 50 years and your still alive take the title if you didnt create it take the title of head instructor and Whomever is head instuctor at 100 years can begin the succession of Grandmaster.
There are to many claiming the title in organisations 1-2 yars old.
If your organisation has not surrived a minimun of 50 years its not a system yet its still in its infancy and growing stage of becomeing a system
Titles such as head instructor, instructor of masters, master, instructor of teachers, teacher  can all be used at lower levels.
just my thought on the matter


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Orig posted by tshadowchaser _*
> I think there are to many claiming the title of Grandmaster in organisations 1-2 yars old.  Titles such as Senior Master, Master, Senior Professor, Head instructor, Associate Instructor, Instructor of teachers, teacher  can all be used at lower levels.  just my thought on the matter *



Well said.

:asian:


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## Rick Wade (Dec 19, 2003)

Grand Master is a Term in Kenpo that is held in a sense of "Reverence so to speack.  We referred to MR. Parker as Grand Master because he is the founder of our system.  Now let us compare the term grandmaster to another community like say America  we can only have one President and after he is voted out of Office we still refer to him as Mr. President when addressing him.  With that being said Maybe the head of a system American Kenpo, Tracy Kenpo should be called Grand Master.  Maybe we should adopt a new term for the founder of a system like Great Grand Master.  They still have the highest rank achievable which is 10th degree black belt, but they are know as Great Grand Master.  Would this solve all of the problems..  
    Probably just create more forms of what we all know is just pure Kenpo.  If everyone would quit worrying about rank and get in the dojo and study we wouldnt have these problems.  Quit worrying about politics and who has what rank and study the arts and they arts.  We should appreciate the fact that we can study the art of American Kenpo.  My personal belief there is one Grand Master in American Kenpo. Mr. Parker.  Master Odo studied two different forms Kenpo for several Decades and came up with Okinawan Kenpo.  No one called him Grand Master.  He was simply Master Odo.  And I am simply a student and fan of American Kenpo

Thanks for reading
Rick English
%think%


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## Cruentus (Dec 19, 2003)

I decided to give my answer as a non-kenpoist. So you guys can laugh me out of your forum when I'm done.  

I put "none of the above" because I think that the Grandmaster title could be valid if 1. It is granted by the (most senior) grandmaster prior to death, acknowledging "next in line" so to speak, 2. Your the founder of a credable art, 3. You are given the title by peers who are "masters" and who agree that you should have the title, 4. You have a large following of students who refer to you as "Grandmaster" no matter what you try to do.

I probebly didn't help out at all, but I just think that there are a few reasons the title could be valid.

Sincerely,

PAUL
Supreme Grandmaster
(kidding, of course)


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## Seig (Dec 29, 2003)

The title Senior Master was reserved for Mr. Parker.  Everyone else is either a Grand Master or a Senior Master.  If you look at the way that the American Kenpo titles are laid out, it is fairly clear, and like the rest of Kenpo, logical.
1st Black- Junior Instructor
2nd Black- Assosciate (or Assistant, varies from org to org) Instructor
3rd Black- Head Instructor
4th Black- Senior Instructor
5th Black- Assosciate Professor
6th Black- Professor
7th Black- Senior Professor
8th Black- Assosciate Master of the Arts
9th Black- Master of the Arts
10th Black- Senior Master of the Arts
Senior Grand Master of the Arts is reserved for the founder of the system.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _*
> "Senior" Grand Master of the Arts is reserved for the founder of the system (Edmund K. Parker).
> *



I agree that the title "Senior" Grand Master is and should be for Mr. Parker only.

Many "Kenpoists" of Parker decent have formed their own Associations or groups for one reason or another, which is fine, and each can have it's own Senior Master's and Grandmaster as I see it.

The problem is... how everyone defines [[SYSTEM]].  
Most are doing (in essence) Ed Parker's ideals and principle works, only expanding or rearranging or putting different spins (which Ed Parker taught them to do anyways), this does not qualify as a different "system" in my book.

But hey, until we create a Kenpo Police Force (KPF), it isn't going to change.  :rofl: 


:asian:


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## theneuhauser (Dec 31, 2003)

Kenpo Police Force!


Cool, Im in!


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## kroh (Jan 8, 2004)

If a person really wants to call themselves by this type of title... who are we to argue...IMHO a person can and should go by any name they want. THis is America and they have that right.

personally, anyone who walked up to me and introduced themselves as master, i would have to walk away to keep from laughing in their face.

This is where i have a problem.  In this country (U.S.A.)...titles often come with consequences.   If you call yourself an M.D. you not only have to have your initial certification for everyone to see but you also have to be recertified on a regular basis.  You have to be able to back it up at ALL times, especially with the sue happy culture we live in.   If you certify yourself as a master or grandmaster or grand pubah.... You should have the paper and historical fact to back it.  As well as being answerable to a higher authority.   These kind of titles along with the kind of society we live in could potentially cause stress with the government and cause some poor suit wearing dude in DC to decide to regulate the lot of us.  It nearly happened a few years ago in New Jersey and it could happen anywhere.   


Think of it this way, boxers, plumbers, electricians, artists, web designers, are often called masters of their trade and yet DO NOT go by this title publicly.   When was the last time the plumber came in and introduced him self as Master BOB.  

A person has the right to be adressed in any maner they want to be  in this country.  You can even change your name to make it legally so...

Just don't be shocked or surprised when the rest of us laugh at you for doing so...


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## RCastillo (Jan 8, 2004)

Give it to me, you won't be sorry!


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## Seig (Jan 8, 2004)

To my students, I am simply Mr. Seigel, my instructor is Mr. C.  We do not use the fancy titles other than in corespondence and marketing.


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## Mark L (Jan 12, 2004)

I practice at an independent school, my instructor is fifth degree, ha asks us to call him Greg.  Most of the other schools I've attended used Mr. or Mrs.  In introductory situations I use Sensei.  I never really thought about using Master until a seminar recently when we were told we should address the guest as Master.  My reaction was no, I won't.  The seminar was very informative and I have much respect for the abilities demonstrated there, I just can't bring myself to call someone Master.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mark L _*
> I practice at an independent school, my instructor is fifth degree, ha asks us to call him Greg.  Most of the other schools I've attended used Mr. or Mrs.  In introductory situations I use Sensei.  I never really thought about using Master until a seminar recently when we were told we should address the guest as Master.  My reaction was no, I won't.  The seminar was very informative and I have much respect for the abilities demonstrated there, I just can't bring myself to call someone Master.
> *



A very interesting topic.... but one that will not have a universal ending.

The old saying.... "When In Rome...." is the issue.  How we are raised and what we are accustomed to is what we feel comfortable with.   However, the age of "question authority" is here (which is fine if done in a respectful manner).  Respect is not going to someone's house and being asked to remove you shoes at the front door and refusing to do so.   

We must all be conscious (in our mixed cultural world of different customs and rituals that are practiced).   We cannot or shouldn't press our desires, customs and beliefs upon others.    Respect of others property and customs on their turf are important, if we want them to respect ours.  

I  realize that in some instances it may go against your personal religious beleifs or other believs well in this case if is not possible to comply,  then you should not mingle or participate in the activity or setting unless you comply with the rules of the area.

How would it be if we took this attitude to driving in Europe.... Hell I find it uncomfortable to drive on the right side of the road! 

or .....   I don't  feel like calling the judge at a trial "your honor".  

or.... I don't feel like addressing the head of a country as customarily done.. I'd say..... Hi ya George jr.... 

I think you get the point.  We do have the right in our own organizations, camps, or seminars or within our personal boundaries to enforce our Customs.... 

Please don't tell me you want to take that right away!

:asian:


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## Rick Wade (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *A very interesting topic.... but one that will not have a universal ending.
> 
> We must all be conscious (in our mixed cultural world of different customs and rituals that are practiced).   We cannot or shouldn't press our desires, customs and beliefs upon others.    Respect of others property and customs on their turf are important, if we want them to respect ours.
> ...



Great Job Dragon.

I think as long as youre the head of "your" system you should be addressed as "Great Grand Master" as in Shoalin Kenpo.  And every other 10th degree should be addressed as Grand Master.  But in everyday conversation outside the dojo I would probably address them as Mr. or Mrs. *****.  The reason for the Ranks is the fact that Mr. Parker liked the rank structure he saw in the Coast Guard.  It is my opinion that he created that somewhat in the Blackbelt ranks (rather than just call them fifth degree blackbelt).

Thanks


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## RCastillo (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *A very interesting topic.... but one that will not have a universal ending.
> 
> The old saying.... "When In Rome...." is the issue.  How we are raised and what we are accustomed to is what we feel comfortable with.   However, the age of "question authority" is here (which is fine if done in a respectful manner).  Respect is not going to someone's house and being asked to remove you shoes at the front door and refusing to do so.
> ...



So, that's why you hit me in the throat, broke my arm, generally said my Kenpo bites, took my self esteem, ran it into the ground.......... 

I'm too choked up to say  more.................


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rick Wade _*
> I think as long as youre the head of "your" system you should be addressed as "Great Grand Master" as in Shoalin Kenpo.  And every other 10th degree should be addressed as Grand Master. *



I thank you for the compliment.

It should be noted that "Great Grand Master Castro" (Shaolin Kenpo),  achieved this title by promoting or (bringing up) a Grand Master (His son).

In American Kenpo, (those that claim to be decedents or Ed Parker)  and use his principles, concepts, and theories in ANY FORM (which includes changing the technique names or even re-arranging them [EP's equation formula]),  could be {IMHPO}, considered Senior Masters of the Art, and if they are the head of an organization that they founded, developed, or created, could even go as far as "Grand Master of that Organization" but to be the "SENIOR" Grand Master again {In My Humble Personal Opinion} should be used only by and for the Originator of our Wonderful System....... Edmund K. Parker Sr.  period.

Any of these other supposed "GrandMasters" have not developed, created or evolved anything "NEW" [yes they have added onto, rearranged, expanded upon already set EP Principles, Concepts, and theories and so on......], but I have not seen "ANY NEW" developments such as or like:
* Universal Pattern
* Web of Knowledge
* Main Base of Principles
* New Curriculum Development  {I don't   
   mean new arrangements}
* Analytical Study of Motion ideals
* Outer Rim Concept
* Dimensional Stages of Action
* Promotional Program for Ranking
* New Historical worthy developments 
   that would universally effect the Art 
   as a whole.
* Code of Ethics, Sayings, Pledges, 
   Creeds to set ideals
* Freestyle "Innovations"
* New Unique Architectural System 
   Designs
* and so on and so on.  

Ed Parker was a Pioneer and deserves the proper recognition and title for what he gave all of us to continue to utilize and build upon.  Many insist on Supreme Bogus Rankings with little or negligible support technically or as a community under the 2 Red Bars they so proudly wear.   This is "Demanded Respect" of which many resist.   True examples of Legends in their own minds.   Hecks, I know of an Individual that last year was a 7th Degree and now claims a 10th Degree.  WoW!

I would be embarrassed if a 5th or 6th Degree would have a Kenpo Bowl (Similar to the one time College Bowl  or Knowledge Bowl TV Game Show), then the Kenpo Community would see what they really know or don't know.

But this is just my opinion, I could be wrong........
:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *So, that's why you hit me in the throat, broke my arm, generally said my Kenpo bites, took my self esteem, ran it into the ground..........
> 
> I'm too choked up to say  more.................
> *



No...........  tell the truth!!

It was because YOU submitted a forged Application!!!!


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## Michael Billings (Jan 12, 2004)

... and I know one who went from 6th to 10th after starting his own Association.  Hmmmm....????

One of the things you can definitly say neither Bryan Hawkins (UKS) or our own Dennis Conatser (IKKO), did not do.  You can organize, manage, and run an Association without self-promotion.  I admire both of these men, both GREAT Kenpoist, for NOT promoting themselves and having the integrity to continue to "hold the line" until promoted by their Seniors.  

Bravo & Kudos (gee and me not even in either of their organizations and getting no rank or kickback whatsoever for this free advertising)

Respectfully,
-Michael


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## Mark L (Jan 13, 2004)

Goldendragon7,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I do agree with much of what you expressed.  The situation I described, particularly my "No, I won't" reaction was an internal one.  I was there to learn, not to quarrel about who's called what.



> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *A very interesting topic.... but one that will not have a universal ending.
> 
> The old saying.... "When In Rome...." is the issue.  How we are raised and what we are accustomed to is what we feel comfortable with.   However, the age of "question authority" is here (which is fine if done in a respectful manner).  Respect is not going to someone's house and being asked to remove you shoes at the front door and refusing to do so. *



I guess that's part of the issue, he came to our house at our invitation and expense and changed, albeit temporarily, the manner in which we address the instructor. 



> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _*
> I  realize that in some instances it may go against your personal religious beleifs or other believs well in this case if is not possible to comply,  then you should not mingle or participate in the activity or setting unless you comply with the rules of the area.*



Agreed.  However, there's ample opportunity to engage with the instructor without formally addressing him.  That's how I handled it.  I'm quite sure there wasn't a hint of disrespect in anything I did.



> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _*How would it be if we took this attitude to driving in Europe.... Hell I find it uncomfortable to drive on the right side of the road!
> 
> or .....   I don't  feel like calling the judge at a trial "your honor".
> 
> ...



I don't.  

From Miriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: 1mas·ter 
Pronunciation: 'mas-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Old French maistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large -- more at MUCH
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : a male teacher (2) : a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's b often capitalized : a revered religious leader c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal
2 a : one having authority over another : RULER, GOVERNOR b : one that conquers or masters : VICTOR, SUPERIOR <in this young, obscure challenger the champion found his master> c : a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1) : one having control (2) : an owner especially of a slave or animal e : the employer especially of a servant f (1) dialect : HUSBAND (2) : the male head of a household

I think my issue is that I default to definition 2 instead of 1, I'll work on it.

:asian:


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## Iron Dog (Jan 13, 2004)

Well said golden dragon! I didn't  have the personal relationship with Mr. Parker as you did and never took into consideration his production of a great art.
It's very, very nice to have reasoned and informative discussions, thank you all.
I have learned a lot from these posts...
Patrick


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 18, 2004)

Y'all wanta remember Hegel on the master/slave relationship.

And, bien sur, recollect that whenever you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.

I still say that "teacher," is a better title than, "master."

Oh, Howard....


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## howardr (Jan 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Y'all wanta remember Hegel on the master/slave relationship.
> 
> And, bien sur, recollect that whenever you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
> ...



Mastery. We have reached mastery when we neither mistake nor hesitate in the achievement.

Nietzsche


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Jan 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *I think there should be only ONE grandmaster in any system.
> All others in the system must take a back seat and wait their time.
> I belive this title should only be used IF a system has been in exsistance for 50 -100  years minimun. I  know thats a big jump in years but If you create the system and it exsists for 50 years and your still alive take the title if you didnt create it take the title of head instructor and Whomever is head instuctor at 100 years can begin the succession of Grandmaster.
> ...



If that is true then what would Great People like Ed Parker or Morihei Ueshiba, Founder of Aikido be considered. Since Ed Parker was the founder of American Kenpo Karate and Morihei Ueshiba, Founder of Aikido ?


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## someguy (Jan 22, 2004)

The title should be handled with a 6 foot pole.  Or maybe a six and a half point pole.  Yeah that sounds right.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Jan 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by someguy _
> *The title should be handled with a 6 foot pole.  Or maybe a six and a half point pole.  Yeah that sounds right. *



Good idea......... lol

or maybe a 9 or 18 foot spear lol


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## parkerkarate (Feb 1, 2004)

This title should be given to the closest student to the Grandmaster, in this case Mr. Parker had made his choice and that should be final. We should respect his choice and not challange it.


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## RCastillo (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by parkerkarate _
> *This title should be given to the closest student to the Grandmaster, in this case Mr. Parker had made his choice and that should be final. We should respect his choice and not challange it. *



Who was his choice?:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by parkerkarate _*
> This title should be given to the closest student to the Grandmaster, in this case Mr. Parker had made his choice and that should be final. We should respect his choice and not challange it.
> *



Yes, which choice is that ?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 2, 2004)

I am sure Mr. Parker was going to tell everyone as soon as he got back from the airport.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 2, 2004)

Roflmao ........... RIGHT!!!!!!!


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by parkerkarate _*
> This title should be given to the closest student to the Grandmaster, in this case Mr. Parker had made his choice and that should be final. We should respect his choice and not challange it.
> *



I'll request for a 2nd time..... 

Please tell who you are referring to when you stated........

" Mr. Parker had made his choice and that should be final"

I'm am really curious now since you have avoided answering the question.....


 
:asian:


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## Rick Wade (Feb 8, 2004)

I think Ole FatKenpoa was being sarcastic (-2 pt for spelling) I'm not sure but I think as far as anyone knows Mr. Parker had not settled on that question.

Just my opinion

Rick


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## parkerkarate (Feb 8, 2004)

there was a long story told to me about why Mr. Palanas or Mr. Tracy, I can't remember which one, got the ranking of grandmaster instead of Mr. Palanzo. BUt Mr. Parker made a choice and he must of had a reason behind it so I am not worrying about it.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by parkerkarate _*
> there was a long story told to me about why Mr. Palanas or Mr. Tracy, (I can't remember which one), got the ranking of grandmaster instead of Mr. Palanzo.
> *



That would be an interesting story -- Who told you that story?

Fact is ..... Mr. Parker <<<< NEVER >>>> gave the Ranking of GrandMaster to anyone, although many wanted it!!



> _Originally posted by parkerkarate _*
> But Mr. Parker made a choice and he must of had a reason behind it so I am not worrying about it.
> *



Well, I DISAGREE  with you!!   Mr. Parker did not make any such choice.   I suggest you research your facts better before making such an absurd statement in public where individuals that were there for years with Mr. Parker read and share information on our wonderful system.  If what you say had even a "shred of accuracy" the Kenpo Community would have heard about it 14 years ago!

I find it interesting that nearly 14 years after his passing some attempt to warp or re-write history for their own benefit.

Sorry to burst your bubble........

:asian:


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## parkerkarate (Feb 9, 2004)

Well then I was told wrong and thank you for telling me. I think I have some reading up to do then.  Thank you.


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## parkerkarate (Feb 9, 2004)

For all of those that I affended I am sorry. I was wrong with my history, I think I will read Mr. Parkers books again to clear everything up with all of what I say. Sorry again.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by parkerkarate _*
> For all of those that I affended I am sorry. I was wrong with my history, I think I will read Mr. Parkers books again to clear everything up with all of what I say. Sorry again.
> *



Not necessary to apologize, but  thanks.

:asian:


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## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT (Jul 20, 2004)

grandmaster to me is still a mystery and a wonder as to what goes on when you've been studying that long. i always thought it should be given out to an individual who has mastered the art, himself and life. who gives it to you? i always thought it should be passed on by either your instructor or a panel of fellow colleagues who believe in you and what you have contributed to the art and everybody around you. i'm so far away from that moment in time that those who have acheived 10th dan i look to them and see and experiance what they have to offer so that i can look forward to that moment.:jedi1:


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## Shogun (Jul 23, 2004)

I agree with the idea that it should:

Only be for the Founder, but I believe one can be the GM if they recieve it from the founder. Like a Sokeship. a word that is used too often.


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## Kosho-Monk (Jan 19, 2005)

I was thinking about this and I have these thoughts.

It seems to be that we could simply use a family type structure as a standard.  The son/daughter is the student, the father/mother is the teacher/master and the grandfather/grandmother is the grandmaster.  

This of course implies that there is really only one "teacher/master" (father/mother) in the school.  Only one person within a school should be the authority of what is taught within its walls.  

The grandfather/grandmother role would be to see over the several schools that were under their charge.  They would basically make sure that the "family values" are still being passed on to the grandkids.

Within one organization there would be only one grandmaster and perhaps several masters. (each master would have their own school and own students)  Everyone else (even the black belts that assisted the master) would be considered students.  Perhaps one student (or a couple maybe) who stood out from all the rest could have some kind of "you're special" designation within the school.

I think one of the problems today (and believe me I fall into this many times) is that we forget that within different organizations there are different rules and standards.  And that's ok.  Maybe someone should start up a yearly tournament in which schools come together to compete for bragging rights for the whole next year!  It would have to be different than what's out there today as we would want to focus more on martial skills and not acrobats.

(Side Note: my teacher once told me that in the "old days" a student who one first place in kata would then have to explain the meaning behind the moves.  If they could not explain them to the satisfaction of the panel, they would not be considered the winner.)

Just like in ancient times, there were masters who were better than other masters.  Usually this was decided by some kind of fight in which the survivor was declared more skillful.  Today we don't do that because the winner would go to jail!

And let's not forget about those "rebel" students (or masters) that decided to go off on their own and start up their own group.  When they did that they were automatically declared grandmaster of their group.  The only way to dispute that would be for someone to challenge them to a public dual - winner takes all.

Anyway, I've typed way to much.  Sorry for the long read, I'm on my lunch break!


-John


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## Kosho-Monk (Jan 19, 2005)

Oh, one other point... sorry.

I think it's kind of odd to have some other organization grant you "permission" to be the grandmaster of your art.  If it's yours, it's yours.  And if it's not, then go get your own if you want to be grandmaster.  And if there's some kind of dispute then put it out to the students and let them decide who they wish to be led by.  Some may want one and some the other.  At that point you now have two groups with similar thoughts - but two separate groups.  They should each rename what the call themselves and move on.

I would say that by leaving it up to some 3rd party organization it just opens the door to many problems.

It's just like getting ranked by some 3rd party org.  It's great on one hand, but really not necessary.  If your students don't care then that's all that really matters.  Your teacher can't reject you because if you had one you wouldn't be getting ranked from this 3rd party org.

I say when you are the teacher of your school, with no teacher of your own, simply move beyond rank and just call yourself the master of the school.  If you feel like you deserve to be grandmaster, then do it.  You'll be judged by others, expect that, but let history be the real judge.  If your school branches out and before you're dead you have several masters passing on your teachings, then you really are/were the grandmaster.  If your school ends when your dead.... who cares..... you're dead.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Peace!


-John


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## Karazenpo (Jan 19, 2005)

John stated: I say when you are the teacher of your school, with no teacher of your own, simply move beyond rank and just call yourself the master of the school. If you feel like you deserve to be grandmaster, then do it. You'll be judged by others, expect that, but let history be the real judge. If your school branches out and before you're dead you have several masters passing on your teachings, then you really are/were the grandmaster. If your school ends when your dead.... who cares..... you're dead. 

I say: Funny John, but you make a lot of sense, the common type. I think that's how it had been done, more or less way back when. I read once that back in the old Okinawan days the teacher of a school, just a school, was essentially the 'shihan' or 'master instructor' of that school, then there were the 'yudansha' ( the advanced students) and the rest, I guess,the beginners. It was just plain and simple. I'm going to try to find that article again to refresh but that was the core of it. So, I guess, if someone goes out and 'successfully' starts their own school or chain of schools, independant of anyone else, then who would be higher in their school and/or organization but them? Tony Annesi wrote a nice article about that in a karate mag back in the 80's. And to paraphrase John Evans, 'time will either promote you or expose you'. I'm not saying this is how I do things, I'm just saying I thought it was a very interesting post by John and he does make logical sense out of the whole freak'n mess, lol.


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## Kosho-Monk (Jan 19, 2005)

Joe,

Thanks. Just need to correct you on one thing. John Bishop is the one that has "time will either promote you or expose you" at the end of his posts.



-John


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## John Bishop (Jan 19, 2005)

It's just a title. Like all titles it means differant things to differant organizations or styles. 
"President" is a really impressive title. But the president of a company with 10 employees is not the same as the president of IBM. And the president of IBM is not the same as the President of the United States. So should these company Presidents find some another title to use?

I've seen the title "Professor" used for ranks from 6th degree in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, 6th degree in Limalama, 6-7 degrees in some styles of Kenpo, and 8th degree in Kajukenbo. 

"Grandmaster" does not automatically mean the head or founder of a system. Other titles like "O'Sensei", "Soke", "Hanshi", "Sijo", Great Grandmaster, Senior Grandmaster, etc., etc. are also used.

There is never going to be uniformity in martial arts titles, because they are so diverse in their culture and traditions. 
There are Japanese traditions, Chinese traditions, Korean traditions, Indonesian traditions, Filipino traditions, even American traditions now. 
So the way the title "Grandmaster" is used is always going to be up to the system or organization. The lowest level I've seen it used was for 6th degree in some Tae Kwon Do organizations. 
In my system it's used for 9th degree and the founders title is "Sijo". 

But like I said in the beginning, it's just a title. It means differant things to differant people.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 19, 2005)

Hey John (Evans), I know John but I wasn't quoting but 'paraphrasing' this part of your post: "You'll be judged by others, expect that, but let history be the real judge. If your school branches out and before you're dead you have several masters passing on your teachings, then you really are/were the grandmaster. If your school ends when your dead.... who cares..... you're dead".  

In a nutshell, I took it to mean 'time will either promote you or expose you', lol. Take care my friend, Joe


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## kroh (Jan 19, 2005)

Great posts...

The thing about these titles is that sometimes ( as i cannot attest to every master being like this) they get a little...inflated.  If some one were to walk up to me and say "I'm Master Sum Gai" I think I would be a little weary of that person... Here is a person who doesn't even know me and he expects me to submit to him...

If his name was George Bush (not an endorsement , just an example) then that would be a belt of a different color.  "Yes, Mr President, nice to meet you Sir," would be my response.  

But if Sum Gai were to walk up and use the above greeting, would it be appropriate for me to respond to his greeting with , "hey Master Sum Gai I'm Sum Dood and I am a master of Manga...Pleased to meet you" just because I have skill with a pencil?

I feel there has to be a line drawn some where and along that line there should be some sort of reckoning for these titles.  There is even a guy in my area who legally changed his name to some WeIrD sounding euro-title to make it sound  like he was lord of the manner.  

Too weird for me...
If I want a master...I'll give Yoda a call...
Regards,
Walt


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## M.C. Busman (Jan 19, 2005)

Introducing oneself as "soke", "master", or "grandmaster"...does the President introduce himself as "President__________"? 

There is such an extreme emphasis on ranks and titles.  I'd venture to guess that in the USA alone we could fill at least one football stadium with men who call themselves "grandmaster".  They would probably have a blast schmoozing 

Martial arts "grandmasters" are as common as little league coaches and girl scout leaders--maybe more so.  The term really means nothing other than the holder of the title is into marketing.  All of the fancy ceritificates from like-minded cronies, all the pretty multi-colored belts with stripes and delicately embroidered kanji to show that this bird is one rare pigeon...does it make a punch more than a punch?  

Should we bow lower, or wait and watch?



Happiness,

M.C. Busman


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## Karazenpo (Jan 19, 2005)

M.C. Busman said:
			
		

> Introducing oneself as "soke", "master", or "grandmaster"...does the President introduce himself as "President__________"?
> 
> There is such an extreme emphasis on ranks and titles.  I'd venture to guess that in the USA alone we could fill at least one football stadium with men who call themselves "grandmaster".  They would probably have a blast schmoozing
> 
> ...




I hear ya, sir but I was once told not to stress myself out over things I have no control over but to divert my energies to things I can change or at least make a difference at. Not to sound morbid but we're all going to die, so do I stress myself out over that or do I put it aside, move on and live my life? Not that you are stressing over it but just my point for those who are. 

Good will to you too, Mr. Busman, Joe


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## kroh (Jan 20, 2005)

M.C. Busman said:
			
		

> Introducing oneself as "soke", "master", or "grandmaster"...does the President introduce himself as "President__________"?
> 
> There is such an extreme emphasis on ranks and titles.  I'd venture to guess that in the USA alone we could fill at least one football stadium with men who call themselves "grandmaster".  They would probably have a blast schmoozing
> 
> ...





Nicely said , Sir.

I totally agree with the statement from Joe in that such things should not be stressed over as in such stress, these "masters" effect a measure of control.  

I am left to wonder however, how these people can continue doing such nonsense with such venues as the internet present.  With the overabundance of information available... I am curious if all this "master bashing" doesn't lead all the grand pubah's to change their titles?  Will we see a better marketing scheme from them that more acurately relfects the martial arts ettiquete of the times?  Or will they continue in the vein of the person who was recently debuted on this web site ( the TKD master who had several ranks from several arts and added them up to say that he was a 14th degee :bow: ) and reach for more heinous claims.

 I have a friend right now who is training in Japan.  He says that when the martial artists over there ask him about training in America...they often ask him how many grand masters he knows and if he has ever gotten an autograph.  Kinda makes you wonder...how gaudy can we get?

Regards, 
Walt


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## Simon Curran (Jan 23, 2005)

I have to admit I voted none of the above, since I don't care for titles, in my opinion actions speak louder than words/ I don't judge people based on reputation, but by personal experience.

Just my personal opinion


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## Brother John (Jan 23, 2005)

Overall, I think this whole issue is rather defunct.... just my opinion. 
Regardless of rank or titles, each person's mind is made up about who is in charge, who knows what and who the real 'authorities' are. Inflation of ego happens, no doubt!!! But really, when a person puts on a title or a rank, THEY are the ones that are going to have to live up to it. That rank will either honor them or *MOCK* them, no matter how they came by it.


Your Brother
John


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## Doc (Jan 23, 2005)

Billy Lear said:
			
		

> The encyclopedia was put out after he died. Sorry. Some of the stuff in there is incorrect. :asian:


Correct. Any contradiction between the Infinite Insights and the Ecyclopedia is resolved as Mr. Lear says. Mr. Parker wrote and supervised the completeion of Infinite Insights in the late seventies and early eighties. The Encyclopedia was published from a series of notes in his office after he passed away, for those who feel that may make a difference.

My opinion, Kenpo has so many senior "grand" and grand "masters" its a joke. The term does not exist within elements within my control and has no meaning for me for those who have chosen to wear the term. I studied with the only "Grand" or otherwise "master" American Kenpo ever had or will have. His name was Edmund Kealoha Parker Sr. Everyone else is a wannabee.

No disrespect


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## Danjo (Jan 23, 2005)

I think that context is everything here. I'm a high school teacher. Titles have their place, but it can go too far. If another adult is talking directly to me way from the students, then he or she simply calls me "Dan". However, if that same person is talking to me in my classroom, or around students, then it is "Mr. Weston". Same goes for my principal. He has a doctorate, and thus is addressed Dr. _______ when he is functioning in his official capacity. But, if I go talk to him privately I call him by his first name. Same goes for a professor friend of mine. At the school he teaches at, or when referring to him to someone else in his capacity as a teacher, it's Dr.__________. When its just him and me, or someone else that knows him away from work, then its back to the first name basis. Context is everything, I think. There's a time and a place for titles, and there's a time when it's too much and something less formal is called for.


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## The Kai (Feb 3, 2005)

If the martial arts are a way of life and not just a hobby,does that not mean we reatin the virtues of your training outside the Dojo?

Yet the kindnesses and courtesies are the first thing we forget?  is it not that our instructors are making an indelible print on us, yet we would rather equalize the relationship the minute we set foot outside the door?
Todd


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## Danjo (Feb 3, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> If the martial arts are a way of life and not just a hobby,does that not mean we reatin the virtues of your training outside the Dojo?
> 
> Yet the kindnesses and courtesies are the first thing we forget? is it not that our instructors are making an indelible print on us, yet we would rather equalize the relationship the minute we set foot outside the door?
> Todd


Well, we don't live in a feudal society in the USA. We live in a democracy where all are citizens etc. and titles are used in a limited way. It has nothing to do with respect as such, but rather with the idea that we are all merely citizens. We are not "subjects" like in a monarchy and there is not the social class system that is supposed to go along with such a society. That there is a context to when and how titles are used here does not imply a disrespect for the instructor to me. It says that there is a time and place for them, and they should definitely be used in those places and at such times. In certain countries there are different classes of citizens, but not here. At least not in theory. Therefore, these things need to be kept in their proper perspective. To me it is not a matter of becoming discourteous or unkind when one leaves the dojo. It is a matter of the American spirit and values setting a limit on when and where titles are to be used. In a society of rigid class structure an Earl is ALWAYS an Earl to those in the lower classes etc. Americans have always had an uneasy time with titles. They recognize the need for them to an extent, but they hate the implication that goes along with them. No one here wants to accept the idea of being a second-class citizen and so we limit the use of our titles to the context of where they directly apply. If it is a martial arts setting, forum, or when referring to some one in the context of the martial arts, using their title to refer to them or address them is proper. Outside of that, perhaps not. My rule of thumb is that I call someone by their title when I am at the dojo. However, if they have a real issue with dropping it at other times, then I'll continue it outside also. That will tend to limit my outside interaction with them, however as I would tend to feel a barrier to the friendship if they insisted on keeping the class distinction there at all times.


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## Danjo (Feb 3, 2005)

You know, I just thought of an exception to my own theory here. Even in America, we still call our parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles by their "titles" out of respect. Regardless of how old we get etc. It is not considered demeaning, nor is it considered being a second-class citizen. It's simply out of love and respect. In that context, in the context of "Ohana" I can easily call someone by their title regardless of when or where.


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## pakigbisog (Feb 4, 2005)

A grandmaster must have ALL of the following qualifications:

  1. minimum of 9th degree black (or red) belt on his main martial arts style,
  2. 3rd degree or 3rd dan on at least 2 other forms of martial arts,
  3. must possess knowledge on reflexology as applied or relative to his main  
      form of martial arts,
  4. have the ability to perform emergency life-saving measures in the event  
     of an accident in a dojo,
  5. must have a well-developed course outline/lesson plan to teach his  
      martial arts, 
  6. have the ability to compose, execute, and teach his own (original) kata
      or forms, and
  7. have a good moral character and no criminal record.

 The title of a Grandmaster must be bestowed upon a candidate after having been certified by another grandmaster or by a council of grandmasters.


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 4, 2005)

> A grandmaster must have ALL of the following qualifications:
> 
> 1. minimum of 9th degree black (or red) belt on his main martial arts style,
> 2. 3rd degree or 3rd dan on at least 2 other forms of martial arts,
> ...


(1) Just for clarification - a red belt in TKD is below black belt.

(2) Are you saying that if I only study one style my whole life that I could not end up being a grandmaster of that style?

(3) I've known many people who posses great skills and understanding of reflexology but couldn't give you the text book answers one might expect. That doesn't mean they don't understand. They just understand differently.

(4) I think all martial artists should take at least your basic first aid and cpr course. And be refreshed on it every couple of years or so. 

(5) I known many teachers that don't have a detialed lesson plan that are still able to pass on their knowledge quite effectively.

(6) What about the honorable grandmaster would has fallen ill and must remain in a wheel chair? Certainly he cannot execute the kata, but can certainly still teach them.

(7) Having good moral character and no criminal record doesn't mean you don't have skills and a following of students.

(last point) This is the chicken / egg problem. Who was the first grandmaster that can give out this title? 


I can't agree with any of your points. I believe I understand where your thoughts are and can agree with your ideals. But in my opinion, what you've stated just isn't reality. 

And just to be clear - I am in no way attacking you or trying to diminish your statements. I'm just disagreeing.


-John


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## Sin (Feb 4, 2005)

The tittle of grandmaster should be handed down to someone after he/she has passed away, be writtin in the former Grandmaster's will and told by his lawyer so there is to be no war over the tittle.  The former Grandmaster should tell no one who he wants to be his sucsessor..................and we should all respect his decision on the passing of the torch.


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## Karazenpo (Feb 4, 2005)

Danjo and Kosho Monk, excellent points. I tend to agree.


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## Seabrook (Feb 8, 2005)

People get way to caught up in titles. 

I view a legitimate 10th degree as a Grandmaster and don't think it should be restricted to a founder. 

If there is anyone in Kenpo who deserves the title of Grandmaster (whether or not he chooses to use it), it's Larry Tatum. 

Jamie Seabrook

http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Bill Lear (Feb 8, 2005)

First Degree Black Belt = Junior Instructor

Second Degree Black Belt = Associate Instructor

Third Degree Black Belt = Head Instructor

Fourth Degree Black Belt = Senior Instructor

Fifth Degree Black Belt = Associate Professor

Sixth Degree Black Belt = Professor

Seventh Degree Black Belt = Senior Professor

Eighth Degree Black Belt = Associate Master of the Arts

Ninth Degree Black Belt = Master of the Arts

Tenth Degree Black Belt = Senior Master of the Arts


Who deserves to be called "Grandmaster"? :idunno:


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 9, 2005)

> First Degree Black Belt = Junior Instructor
> 
> Second Degree Black Belt = Associate Instructor
> 
> ...


Bill,

I'm guessing that you wouldn't call someone "Associate Master of the Arts Smith", for instance. So in EPAK do they just stick to Mr. Smith and everyone simply looks at the belt to see the difference?


Thanks.

-John


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## MisterMike (Feb 9, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> People get way to caught up in titles.
> 
> ...
> 
> If there is anyone in Kenpo who deserves the title of Grandmaster (whether or not he chooses to use it), it's Larry Tatum.



Why?


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## Ray (Feb 9, 2005)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> I'm guessing that you wouldn't call someone "Associate Master of the Arts Smith", for instance. So in EPAK do they just stick to Mr. Smith and everyone simply looks at the belt to see the difference?


I call everyone Mr, Miss or Mrs unless they indicate otherwise.  I don't look at the belt to see the difference, I look at the difference in the way they fight and move.  I know a person who is a 5th degree black belt who wears no tabs on his belt - but he fights unbelievably well.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 9, 2005)

With long, handled tongs. As the piece of advertising it often is. On ceremonial and formal occasions only. As blather. As the occasion demands, since I'm not going to be rude to some 80-year-old Korean teacher who can kick my ***. 

Perhaps we could ruthlessly war against all pomposity and Orientalism and narcissism in the martial arts--you know, the hushed, reverent phrasing in our posts, the name-dropping at the drop of a hat, the way that we employ other people's titles to inflate our own importance, the pseudo-intellectualism, the faked wisdom and the recitation of cliches...all of it.

It's no different in academics. As I've had occasion to remark elsewhere, with maybe two exceptions, every single REALLY famous and deserving academic I've met in the last thirty years introduced themselves as something like, "Hi, I'm Ed," or, "Hi, I'm Barbara." It's the wieners who intro themselves as, "Dr," or put, "PhD," on their name tag, that you gotta watch out for.

And it has been my experience that it is exactly the same in the martial arts. I've met pompous jerks in kenpo; I've met them in aikido, tang soo do, shotokan. Know what? In my estimation, it's the polite, well-mannered, decent folks in the arts that you want to watch out for, should push come to shove.


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## Bill Lear (Feb 9, 2005)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Bill,
> 
> I'm guessing that you wouldn't call someone "Associate Master of the Arts Smith", for instance. So in EPAK do they just stick to Mr. Smith and everyone simply looks at the belt to see the difference?
> 
> ...



Uh... Yep.


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## Karazenpo (Feb 9, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> With long, handled tongs. As the piece of advertising it often is. On ceremonial and formal occasions only. As blather. As the occasion demands, since I'm not going to be rude to some 80-year-old Korean teacher who can kick my ***.
> 
> Perhaps we could ruthlessly war against all pomposity and Orientalism and narcissism in the martial arts--you know, the hushed, reverent phrasing in our posts, the name-dropping at the drop of a hat, the way that we employ other people's titles to inflate our own importance, the pseudo-intellectualism, the faked wisdom and the recitation of cliches...all of it.
> 
> ...



Tell that to 'Grandmaster' Sam Kuoha, lol, he posts on this forum.


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## kroh (Feb 10, 2005)

What I find most comical is that it is not the Asian practitioners of these activities who promote such titles.  It is the non-asian practioners who do.  I have seen threads like this on several boards and I use the same quote from Adam Hsu ( an accredited Kung Fu practitioner ) that states when he came to the United States from China he was astounded at the amount of masters that he found.  He wanted to know who promoted them and why are there no masters in China?  

Silly marketing tools... enforcing psuedo asian customs like bowing in weird manners and using words that most people get wrong in their translation are rampant (there is some one a few posts up that uses the word Osu... this word is mostly used by Japanese youth and is a slang term... It is like getting excited in America and yelling out "DUDE!!!!"  If you really respect the people that are being called "masters," when they talk to you would your be, "sure dude?" ) 

A lot of the titles used by our asian counterparts are for written comments only.  For example when some one is refered to in text , titles like soke (don't get started on that one...If i had a dollar for every time this term is missued in the USA) are used.  Yet, when addressed in person, the titles of sensei (which is grammitcally correct in japanese) is used.  It is basically the opposite in English...and I think that is where the confusion is comming in ( we wouldn't address our teachers as "teacher Smith" it is Mr. Smith.  But we would call him professor or doctor if he had earned those titles.)

For the informed it is mildly annoying and baffling... I see surpeme great grand master in bold above some one's name... Time to move to the next building.  And people wonder why modern RBSD or MMA is getting big... No titles.

Regards, 
Walt


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## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2005)

kroh said:
			
		

> What I find most comical is that it is not the Asian practitioners of these activities who promote such titles.  It is the non-asian practioners who do.  I have seen threads like this on several boards and I use the same quote from Adam Hsu ( an accredited Kung Fu practitioner ) that states when he came to the United States from China he was astounded at the amount of masters that he found.  He wanted to know who promoted them and why are there no masters in China?
> 
> Silly marketing tools... enforcing psuedo asian customs like bowing in weird manners and using words that most people get wrong in their translation are rampant (there is some one a few posts up that uses the word Osu... this word is mostly used by Japanese youth and is a slang term... It is like getting excited in America and yelling out "DUDE!!!!"  If you really respect the people that are being called "masters," when they talk to you would your be, "sure dude?" )
> 
> ...


I think Adam Hsu didn't take into consideration how long martial arts have existed in the USA, definately a much longer time than he. Over time many systems stopped "reporting" to Asia.

So is it proper for an American with 40-50 years in the Martial Arts to be considered a Grandmaster? And how can someone so young question these Grandmasters?


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2005)

Dear, "Karazempo:"

Perhaps if you were a little less eager to try and pounce, you'd have noticed that, a) I'd not know that Mr. Kuoha referred to himself as, "'Grandmaster," b) he seems to be very polite--which I believe my post covered, c) as the real deal and a bit of an elder statesman, I believe that my note about, "as the occasion demands," pretty much covered the issue. 

Could you perhaps explain which parts of what I wrote you disagreed with, and why? Thanks.

Personally, I'm wit' Kroh/Walt on this one. I think it's not only the common-sense approach, but the historically and culturally accurate one.


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## kroh (Feb 10, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I think Adam Hsu didn't take into consideration how long martial arts have existed in the USA, definately a much longer time than he. Over time many systems stopped "reporting" to Asia.
> 
> So is it proper for an American with 40-50 years in the Martial Arts to be considered a Grandmaster? And how can someone so young question these Grandmasters?



Hey there AKJA, 

Thank you for your reply sir.   I just wanted to clarify my post a little.  My post was not aimed at a younger person "punkin out da mastas" it was a statement (paraphrase) from a gentlemen considered in many martial arts circles as a definative authority on Chinese Martial Arts (He is most widely known for his practice of Bagua Zhang and also his Tai Chi Chuan with 40 + years of experience; the paraphrase comes from his book, Sword and Brush).  When speaking to friends who live and train in Japan, they tell me that they have not encountered any "master" rankings while out there.  It confuses many in the TMA community and also the RSD / MMA community how many of these people, who might well be masterfull in their skill, can go around claiming to be masters of a TMA or TMA derived system when the parent systems don't use this practice.  

It just weirds me out that when I meet some one for the first time and they introduce themselves as Master So and so... I am lead to wonder... Master of what... Universe, knitting, driving?  I have a few friends who are professors (college PHDs) and when introducing themselves...I get first and last name and a handshake.  I don't have to genuflect.  And if these American systems stoped reporting to Asia long ago...let them stop altogether...not just half it.  They still bow/salute, where keikogi, practice in dojo's, and imitate bad Kung Fu flicks by calling everyone master... If you are going to lose it... Lose it all.


If some one could have tracked me down six months ago I would have said that I really don't care what people call themselves as long as I have the right to laugh at them when it is something stupid.  However, I recently encounted a situation that put some people in a bad light as far as martial arts were concerned and it was perpetrated by a "master."  Does this mean that all these "masters" are bad.  NO...In fact there are a few that I would love to train with!

But from what I understand...they refer to themselves by Mr. So in SO... Makes it easier for everyone...

Just in case this is taken the wrong way, Akja, I really enjoy your posts ( you post on some of the same threads I do) and this is in no way meant to disrespect you, just point the discussion in a different direction.  

Thank you again for you post sir and I hope to hear from you soon, 
Regards, 
Walt


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## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2005)

kroh said:
			
		

> Hey there AKJA,
> 
> Thank you for your reply sir.   I just wanted to clarify my post a little.  My post was not aimed at a younger person "punkin out da mastas" it was a statement (paraphrase) from a gentlemen considered in many martial arts circles as a definative authority on Chinese Martial Arts (He is most widely known for his practice of Bagua Zhang and also his Tai Chi Chuan with 40 + years of experience; the paraphrase comes from his book, Sword and Brush).  When speaking to friends who live and train in Japan, they tell me that they have not encountered any "master" rankings while out there.  It confuses many in the TMA community and also the RSD / MMA community how many of these people, who might well be masterfull in their skill, can go around claiming to be masters of a TMA or TMA derived system when the parent systems don't use this practice.
> 
> ...



No offense taken. I like your posts too.
My Hats off to Adam. He has much more time in than I expected. When looking at his picture in the mags he looks young and with 40+ years his "opinion" is justified.

But if a boxer had a falling out with his coach, would he still call himself a boxer? Of course, so why wouldn't a martial artist carry on what he was taught and is "rightfully" his own to do whatever he chooses do to with?

So many "respected" American systems ( good examples are Kajukenbo & Kenpo) still call themselves Karate, yet America is the arts "origination." They bow, and carry on with many traditions. Westerners are differant, why not do things differantly?

I'm not saying that the titles of Grandmaster and Master as well as others are misused because they definately are. But the same "problems" exist in Japan and probably in many parts of Asia.

My Sifu will not call himself a Master, ever. His father was a longtime student of James Yimm Lee in Hayward and Oakland, Ca. After Bruce and James Lee both passed away most of the other Oakland students went on with their lives while Sigung Felix Macias Sr. continued to develop his Gung Fu system. Sifu Felix Macis Jr. is no doubt a true master to the word. He is the "sole inheritor" to his fathers Gung Fu system which he has named the Tao of Gung Fu. 

Felix Jr. began his training in the '60's and really is a Grandmaster. If we were to have to report to Asia then they and their system would be nothing. Dosen't make sense. The arts have been in America long enough for us to stand on our own feet, whether or not we choose to use foreign terminology or rituals or anything else from our predecessor arts.

So I ask you, if Felix Jr. chose to use the title of Grandmaster. Would he be "trashed" too?

P.S.
Theres a .pdf (adobe) file on this page about Sifu and Sigung that published in Jeet Kune Do magazine which supports what I said about them.
http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/SIFUSTORY.html


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## kroh (Feb 10, 2005)

> My Sifu will not call himself a Master, ever



This is where I agree with you... You see this kind of attitude is exactly what I am talking about.  He walks in the way of a person who has attempted to reach a level few can aspire to much less reach...And yet...he does not dote on titles and pomp and circumstance.  Sounds like a cool guy...Some one I would like to meet. 



> Felix Jr. began his training in the '60's and really is a Grandmaster. If we were to have to report to Asia then they and their system would be nothing. Dosen't make sense. The arts have been in America long enough for us to stand on our own feet, whether or not we choose to use foreign terminology or rituals or anything else from our predecessor arts.



Using the rituals and terminology insists that one is still owing to the country of origin.  If one partakes of Shorinji Kempo... the practice of Kongo Zen goes with it.  Not eactly Occidental in thought or theory.  However take something like EPAK (I am not an EPAK student, just something I have noticed about their schools).  All foreign terminology removed.  Uniforms turned very American (Tons of patches and stitching and embroidered belts all drawing attention to the wearer...and in some cases filipino arnis uniforms done in the same way).  Mr and Mrs in leu of sensei.  Much like what some of the Okinawans did to martial arts brought over from China (like Uechi-ryu karatedo) or the Japanese did with Chinese Giwamon Fist (Shorinji Kempo), EPAK ( the ones that I have encountered) have severed ties with the host country (Japan and China by way of Hawaii) and made things American. 




> So I ask you, if Felix Jr. chose to use the title of Grandmaster. Would he be "trashed" too?



I am not trashing the person, I am questioning their strange usage of a word beign used out of cultural context.  If he were to write his name as "Felix Jr., Grand Master of Tao of Gung Fu Martial Art" he would be "culturally correct. " IN this country certain professions still cling to the Master/apprentice system.  If you talk to a carpenter who is "master rated", it will say so on his card and maybe on his licences.  I happen to know a person who is Master Rated Carpenter and he does not walk around calling himself Master So and So...He would be laughed right out of buisiness.   As for your teacher using the title...You have stated previously that he carries himself as a true master and yet does not call himself as such...He strikes me as a person who would use it correctly.  

Thank you again for the post sir... You have given me a few ideas to chew on that may have me rethink my position in certain instances. :uhyeah: 

Regards, 
Walt


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## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2005)

kroh said:
			
		

> I am not trashing the person, I am questioning their strange usage of a word beign used out of cultural context..
> 
> Thank you again for the post sir... You have given me a few ideas to chew on that may have me rethink my position in certain instances. :uhyeah:
> 
> ...


I wasn't implying that it was you trashing anyone (the topic is along those lines), just looking for the opinion.


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## Gin-Gin (Feb 10, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> But hey, until we create a Kenpo Police Force (KPF), it isn't going to change.  :rofl: :asian:


Yes, Sir--my thoughts exactly :lol: which is why IMHO (which only means something to me since I'm just a student) everybody should stop worrying about the titles & *keep training!*  As one of the GoldenDragon's signature lines states, "Time will either promote you or expose you!"

:asian:


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## John Bishop (Feb 10, 2005)

I think people worry way too much about titles.  It really should only be important to members of the same system.   There's just way too many titles, and applications to worry about whether someone deserves the title or not.  In the academic world I've seen the title "Professor" used for everything from a part time jr. college teacher, to world renowned university teachers.  Grandmaster titles are also used in widely diverse ways in the martial arts, to signify ranks anywhere from 6th degree to founder. 

What you really need to ask yourself is; does the person your dealing with deserve your respect or not?  If your a Baptist, would it be offensive to you to address a Catholic priest as "father"?  
I try and show all martial artists respect until they prove to me that they do not deserve it.  
When I encounter a black belt from another system at a open martial arts seminar, gathering, ext. I make it a point to ask them what their title is in their system.  Most of them will say it's "sensei, but you can call me Jim".  I will address them as "Sensei" in front of everyone as a sign of respect for his position, and maybe when we're alone call him "Jim". 

In the vast majority of cases people who demand respect, or constanty refer to themselves by their titles, are the ones I'm suspicious of.
If you have lived the life of a good martial artist, have worked hard at it, and improved peoples lives thru your teaching, then they and others in the martial arts community will show you the respect you deserve.


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## LexTalinis (Feb 10, 2005)

_Personally, I think that the title of Grandmaster should be handed down from the founder of the art, to who he deems to take over the art, then handed down from Grandmaster to Grandmaster.  But that is just my humble opinion._


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## Bill Lear (Feb 10, 2005)

LexTalinis said:
			
		

> _Personally, I think that the title of Grandmaster should be handed down from the founder of the art, to who he deems to take over the art, then handed down from Grandmaster to Grandmaster.  But that is just my humble opinion._



This very thing presents a problem in American Kenpo. Mr. Parker never formally declared who his successor should be. Also, I think there is a discrepancy as to whether or not Mr. Parker actually ever used the title "Grandmaster".  

:asian:


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## LexTalinis (Feb 10, 2005)

_Bill, I am well aware of the "problem" that Ed Parker left his American Kenpoka by not naming a successor.  Those are, in my eyes extrainuating circumstances where and accociated body should either preside, or vote on a successor.  A dragon with no head, eventually dies.  I hope that is not the fate of American Kenpo, but it does cause many issues.  It is a down right shame.  Like I said, just an opinion._


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 10, 2005)

LexTalinis said:
			
		

> _Bill, I am well aware of the "problem" that Ed Parker left his American Kenpoka by not naming a successor. Those are, in my eyes extrainuating circumstances where and accociated body should either preside, or vote on a successor. A dragon with no head, eventually dies. I hope that is not the fate of American Kenpo, but it does cause many issues. It is a down right shame. Like I said, just an opinion._


Even more unfortuntate is the fact that EPAK is so fractured there is no governing body to perform the action you're referencing.   We're just wingin' it for now till they all come around to my way of thinking LOL.

DarK LorD


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 10, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Even more unfortuntate is the fact that EPAK is so fractured there is no governing body to perform the action you're referencing. We're just wingin' it for now till they all come around to my way of thinking LOL.
> 
> DarK LorD


Dammit, you beat me to it. I was going to say that it does not matter who says what about whom, as long as I am glorified, deified, and immortalized.

Regards,

D.


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## LexTalinis (Feb 10, 2005)

_
You know, I wonder what the kenpo world would look like here in America if the fractured masses just got over some pride issues and came together as a whole, either governed, or named a head.  I think that American Kenpoka would dominate the Martial arts world...  Seems sort of self defeating to bicker about who's who and why.  

So anyone have any theories or speculation (maybe inside info on a movement already doing this) as to how long it will take before unification occurs?

Also, some food for thought; perhaps Ed Parker did not want a unification of American Kenpo, or maybe he thought his Kenpoka would be able to decide on their own.   _


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 11, 2005)

> If you have lived the life of a good martial artist, have worked hard at it, and improved peoples lives thru your teaching, then they and others in the martial arts community will show you the respect you deserve.


I couldn't agree more.


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## Danjo (Feb 11, 2005)

LexTalinis said:
			
		

> _either governed, or named a head_


Ah, there's the rub! Who is the most qualified to do this? Is this just EPAK, Tracy's, Shaolin? etc. etc.


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## kroh (Feb 11, 2005)

> If you have lived the life of a good martial artist, have worked hard at it, and improved peoples lives thru your teaching, then they and others in the martial arts community will show you the respect you deserve.



Nicely put... :asian: 

Walt


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## Ray (Feb 11, 2005)

LexTalinis said:
			
		

> _So anyone have any theories or speculation (maybe inside info on a movement already doing this) as to how long it will take before unification occurs?_


I don't think that there will a "unification" into one organization.  There are few barriers to starting a MA school (as a business); even though there are more barriers to starting an MA Association/Organization, there are still not that many (compared to other businesses).

To keep an organization going must take more skills than just being a great instructor.  And an org needs to offer something to the members...I once joined an association (to remain nameless) and all I received for the fee was a really nice looking membership certificate.  I've been leary of joining an association since then.

  I think organizations will come and go; and there will be a few that keep going.  Those that keep going will be led by people who have tremendously deep kenpo knowledge, business acumen, people skills and a true desire to want see others develope their own skills.  

I did attend a couple of seminars, over the years, that were taught by leaders of different organizations and thought I got more than my money's worth.  

Maybe another thread has addressed this, but why join an association?  And which one to join?


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## Gin-Gin (Feb 11, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> I don't think that there will a "unification" into one organization.  Maybe another thread has addressed this


Yes, this was addressed by GoldenDragon 7 (as well as DOC & Mr. Billings) in the "Q & A thread":
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2333&page=48&pp=15&highlight=Q&A


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## Karazenpo (Feb 11, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Dear, "Karazempo:"
> 
> Perhaps if you were a little less eager to try and pounce, you'd have noticed that, a) I'd not know that Mr. Kuoha referred to himself as, "'Grandmaster," b) he seems to be very polite--which I believe my post covered, c) as the real deal and a bit of an elder statesman, I believe that my note about, "as the occasion demands," pretty much covered the issue.
> 
> ...



Not pouncing, Robert but okay, I'll elaborate. I think this 'general' statement you made is totally out of line and I used Grandmaster Kuoha as an example why and according to your response, I guess you agree. Here is what you stated that I take issue with: It's no different in academics. As I've had occasion to remark elsewhere, with maybe two exceptions, every single REALLY famous and deserving academic I've met in the last thirty years introduced themselves as something like, "Hi, I'm Ed," or, "Hi, I'm Barbara." It's the wieners who intro themselves as, "Dr," or put, "PhD," on their name tag, that you gotta watch out for.

Robert, totally unfair because I could name many martial artsits who don't use titles who are arrogant, cocky, pompous asses and whiners to boot! I could give you many examples of those that use titles who are highly respected stand up people. I hope your agreement over Grandmaster Kuoha isn't because he is not three thousand miles away and is someone you could bump into at the supermarket or a tournament. 

Martial arts, Robert, originally was taught in a rather para-military way. Evidentally you were never in armed services or law enforcement, not a problem. My Chief of police, Thomas O'Laughlin is a total stand up guy, yet, at roll call or when I address him, I address him as 'Chief'. I have two personal friends who are police chiefs in two other jurisdictions and I call them 'Chief' also. You see, it's a respect thing, in the military and law enforcement, something so lacking in today's society and the martial arts. Should I go into roll call and address my chief as 'Tom' or 'Tommy'  of Mr., no. of course not because it's not the proper protocol for that profession. Just like today's high schools, my childhood buddy is a teacher and a well respected teacher, yet some of the students' decided to call him 'Fran', need I say more on that situation.

Robert, we went through this before but I'll go through it again if need be. PROTOCOL.........I never used titles PERIOD until I was training under an instructor who did (Prof. Nick Cerio) and I respected his protocol. 'Sonny' Gascon does not use titles in in formal settings at all, as a matter of fact, he's uncomfortable with the 'Sijo' title out of respect to Sijo Emperado and has decided to give that title up. We must all respect each other's protocol. Robert, if your instructor starting using titles you would go along with it in a heart beat! Do you know why I'd be forward enough to say that? Simple. When Steve Spry went to his black belt video program he got the crap beat out of him on another forum. Whne fred Villari followed suit, he got pummelled also but when your instructor did, everything went quiet. Again, my philosophy threefold, 1) the 'glass house syndrome', 2) knowing what's happening in your own back yard and last but not least, 3) 'you mind your store and I'll mind mine'. That's what I live by because if you don't it will always come back to bite you in the butt. In closing, ya, I do agree with the overuse of grandmaster titles and so forth in the U.S.A. and there is nothing wrong with you voicing your opinion against it but please do so with respect to others, otherwise, you are sounding like those poeple you have met whom you didn't like that use titles, that's all I take issue with. A little courtesy.


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## The Kai (Feb 11, 2005)

as the occasion demands

It seems that everyone thinks that thier grandmaster should be refered o as such, but your grandmaster?


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 11, 2005)

Oh, for crying out loud.

First off, the guy introduced himself to me as, "Larry," in 1992, which is how he intros himself to everybody, and which is how I happen to know for a fact is how he's introduced himself to everybody since at least 1976, following Mr. Parker's example in such matters. It's a little late for me to start worshipping the Great Pumpkin and sacrificing chickens on a regular basis. 

If you're wondering what we use at the school for formal occasions, it's, "Mr. Tatum," when we're on the mat and the occasion seems to call for it. I've never heard ANYBODY who's a student at the playpen use, "Grandmaster," "Master," or, "Ziggurat Chief." In fact, the general style is to strongly discourage the use of any titles at all for any of the instructors.

Just between you and me, I tell my college students that I prefer, "Robert," but that if they'd prefer to keep things formal, they should go with, "Dr." Then I address them as "Mr.," and, "Ms.," and somehow I haven't had any riots or insurrections over the last twenty-five years or so.

Second off, the videos have absolutely nothing to do with titles, unless you want to discuss advertising in the martial arts. Perhaps people, 'went quiet,' because they looked at them and went, "Oh....," because perhaps there was a bit of a difference in quality. 

Third off, if you'd actually slow down for a second and READ WHAT I WROTE (not to mention what I've written for about three-four years now on the subject), I actually said that a) titles are fine on ceremonial and formal occasions and not so good for everyday use, b) OF COURSE one should respect other people's traditions and senior martial artists raised in different traditions, c) Mr. Kuoha could walk over my *** in a heartbeat, and I make it a policy not to offend such folks where I can possibly avoid it. Especially when they trained and taught in Hawaii.

And by the way, you still haven't pointed out the place where I was disrespectful in any fashion to the man. Unless, of course, you find, "Mr. Kuoha," somehow disrespectful, what with "Mr.," only being the abbreviation for "Master," and all. I'd also be curious to know just where it was in what I wrote that you developed this idea that I'd argued, "Oh, next time you go to roll call, by all means smart off to your boss." 

So let me repeat: OF COURSE manners and respecting other people's traditions are important. OF COURSE I agree about how one addresses their boss, their teacher, etc. OF COURSE Mr. Kuoha deserves respect.

Oh, point of agreement--as Bullshido.com, some of Systema posts, some of the MMA guys, and many others show, there's the peculiarily American pomposity of, "I'm just plain folks," no titles needed as long as you kiss my butt, to contend with these days. 

You seem to be determined to find the bad in whatever I write. (Or more likely, this isn't even about what I write.) Your privilege; you're still wrong. So at least try to provide evidence: if there's some SPECIFIC place where I was rude to a senior martial artist who certainly writes like a helluva nice guy, point it out and I'll apologize. Otherwise, I have nothing more to say on this thread.


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## Danjo (Feb 12, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> With long, handled tongs. As the piece of advertising it often is. On ceremonial and formal occasions only. As blather. As the occasion demands, since I'm not going to be rude to some 80-year-old Korean teacher who can kick my ***....
> 
> Perhaps we could ruthlessly war against all pomposity and Orientalism and narcissism in the martial arts ....
> 
> I've met pompous jerks in kenpo; I've met them in aikido, tang soo do, shotokan. Know what? In my estimation, it's the polite, well-mannered, decent folks in the arts that you want to watch out for, should push come to shove.


Your post (butchered above) did tend to sound as though you were bashing anyone that insisted on the use of titles. The idea that the only reason that you would call someone by a title is if they could kick your ***, rather than because that's what you wanted to do, says something interesting. The kind of people that do something just because they could get beat up by someone else are called by various names, especially in prison. Your post makes it clear that you consider titles "pompous" and "narcissistic" and, by extension, those that insisist on their use pompous and narcissistic, thereby throwing a generalized insult to anyone using a title. If you didn't mean to say that, it is directly implied in your post.


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## KenpoTess (Feb 12, 2005)

* Mod Note

Gentlemen,

This is rapidly digressing.  Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and each has the right to voice their own opinions.  No one can be 'Right' and none can be 'Wrong', so either agree to disagree and start anew, or continue your personal debates via Pm or email.

Thank you,

~Tess
-MT S. Mod

*


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 12, 2005)

Well, if you're determined to misread to this extent, about all I can do is suggest that you go back and re-read. I don't see the use of my trying to explain further, since I was very clear about my past experiences, my insistence on good manners, and my respect for other people's traditions.

Primarily, what I can't stand--in myself as well as in others--is pomposity. You might want to go back through the posts and ask yourself who's been insistent on endless titles here--"here," being an Internet forum rather than a Shaolin temple in 1687. You also might want to go back through a few of the other posts, and see whether or not you might find an example or two of this disrespect aimed elsewhere. 

For example, you might ask whether or not such an issue appears in Mr. Shuras' last post. Particularly look at his remarks about the military/the cops, and about Mr. Tatum. 

I will consider what you've written, but I don't agree--especially because nobody seems to be coming up with anything more than their slightly eccentric interpretation of what I wrote. 

Thank you for your response, but in fact, I think this has very little to do with what I wrote. And I stand by my assertion that most of us really need to get off the rank-n'-title fascination.


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## Danjo (Feb 12, 2005)

Well, maybe I misunderstood you then. Anyways, it seemed to me that the comment on Tatum had to do with the idea that many EPAK folk really lambasted the idea of video training until Tatum came out with his. Then they went silent about it. Make of that what you will.


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## bayonet (Feb 12, 2005)

I think we all are off the subject here. But as far as videos go, everybody stopped talking because you cannot argue with the quality and integrity of EPAK that Mr. Tatum laid out on video. Who knows better than a man who spent  over twenty years on the mat with Mr. Parker himself? As far as GM goes, Mr. Tatum has lived and breathed AK for nearly 40 years.


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## LT2002 (Feb 12, 2005)

I voted for 'none' of the above.  I would consider that the students could bestow the honor to their instructor upon his death or retirement (should there every be a 'retirement')

There should always be proper respect between student and instructor -when this cannot be maintained, leave the style.

Too much Grand High Master nonsesnse exists in the MA world it is merely for marketing classes not measure someone's true skill.  So, none is best or the student body consensus to mark the level their instructor achieved.


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## Karazenpo (Feb 14, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Your post (butchered above) did tend to sound as though you were bashing anyone that insisted on the use of titles. The idea that the only reason that you would call someone by a title is if they could kick your ***, rather than because that's what you wanted to do, says something interesting. The kind of people that do something just because they could get beat up by someone else are called by various names, especially in prison. Your post makes it clear that you consider titles "pompous" and "narcissistic" and, by extension, those that insisist on their use pompous and narcissistic, thereby throwing a generalized insult to anyone using a title. If you didn't mean to say that, it is directly implied in your post.



Robert, don't get all bent out of shape, lol. It's only a forum discussion, nothing personal. However you are off base when you say I always disagree with whatever you write. There are times when I have agreed with your comments and I have told you that and there are times when I totally disagree with your comments and I've told you that too. No big thing. Right about now, I'm going to close out on this discussion for one good reason, it's because what Danjo wrote is as good as I could have, if not better, that's why I quoted him above. Let's just listen to the moderator and leave it at that.


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## Karazenpo (Feb 14, 2005)

bayonet said:
			
		

> I think we all are off the subject here. But as far as videos go, everybody stopped talking because you cannot argue with the quality and integrity of EPAK that Mr. Tatum laid out on video. Who knows better than a man who spent  over twenty years on the mat with Mr. Parker himself? As far as GM goes, Mr. Tatum has lived and breathed AK for nearly 40 years.



Hello bayonet, you misunderstood with Danjo and I mean't when we said about the lambasting of the video tape programs that occurred prior to Mr. Tatum's. It wasn't over the quality of any video tape but over having a video tape program 'in general' of white to black belt for big bucks with a mail order certificate and a significant test fee.


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## GAB (Feb 14, 2005)

LexTalinis said:
			
		

> _You know, I wonder what the kenpo world would look like here in America if the fractured masses just got over some pride issues and came together as a whole, either governed, or named a head. I think that American Kenpoka would dominate the Martial arts world... Seems sort of self defeating to bicker about who's who and why. _
> 
> _So anyone have any theories or speculation (maybe inside info on a movement already doing this) as to how long it will take before unification occurs?_
> 
> _Also, some food for thought; perhaps Ed Parker did not want a unification of American Kenpo, or maybe he thought his Kenpoka would be able to decide on their own. _


Hi all, Subject what do you mean subject? we got no stinkinnng subject...

Lex Talinis....

I think your very much onto the right track as you continued your thought...

TO part of the subject....

Polite and humble is nice but not very realistic...I thought I knew a guy pretty good and then the other night I saw his other side and you go, wow, no wonder his son is so jumpy...

When you see the person in one setting and it is only for a little while you really don't get to know them...

He professed all the nice statements and the friendly bow's etc...

Just a little observation that keeps me awake and pretty much of a loner...

I always liked the movie "One eyed Jack"... Marlon Brando...
He makes a statement to Karl Malden who was his friend and fellow outlaw.
"You are a one eyed Jack, but I have seen your other side" or something like that.

I always like to be on the outside looking in, that way you are pretty sure you can be your own person and don't get hung up in the politics of the various groups in the dojo or in life...

I believe, be polite, but when you see injustice you have to stand up for the person who is being a victim. Under most conditions that is a tough call,
most will be polite and humble because it is easier for them to be like that...

You can be polite and say something, but it will be taken as wrong if you have offended the persons who live in glass houses...

Does that make any sense??? Oh well, just my thoughts after reading quite a few of these post's...

Regards, Gary


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## KenpoTess (Feb 15, 2005)

* Mod Note

This 'Debate' has been going on for almost 2 yrs in this thread.. 05-25-2003, 03:39 AM  
 It's time to Lock it down and discuss something else.

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-
*


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