# mma for self defence



## cfr (Jan 20, 2003)

I am curious as to what you guys think about mma(muay thai, wrestling, bjj, etc.)  purely as a means of self defense. I know that other people from more traditional styles(purely for lack of better words) claim it can be ineffective because of rules, weight classes, no weapons, etc. I was curious as to what some of the more experienced mma guys think about this. I have a very small amount of experience in any ma. I have taken some time off recently to recover from injuries and unfortunately its given me lots of time to think up stuff like this. I have no interest in nhb type of stuff. Im just looking for the best bang for my buck for self defense.  Im really curious as to what the guys who have done mma and a more traditional style (again purely for lack of better words) have to say on this.


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## Zepp (Jan 20, 2003)

Firstly, I should like to point out that calling any one art "a" mixed martial art is pretty subjective, no matter how comprehensive that art may be.  A good mixed martial arts _instructor_ will probably have trained in several arts himself and will be able to give you good grounding in both striking and grappling, though he/she will probably have a preference for one.

As for which art to pick, it depends on what level of self-defence you're looking for.  If you just want to learn the basics of surviving a fight and you don't care much about conditioning, I'd suggest Krav Maga, or a basic self-defense class.

But if you want to train yourself to be able to defend yourself in any situation against multiple opponents, some of whom may be armed?  *Study as many martial arts as you can. *  Whether or not you may need to use muay thai, or Brazilian jui-jitsu, or even Tae Kwon Do to save yourself in a fight is something that depends on the situation and isn't really predictable.  You should train in different arts and develop your own system that suits you.


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## Zepp (Jan 20, 2003)

After looking at your profile cfr, it seems you already have a start on a good MMA education.  You don't need my advice.


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## cfr (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *After looking at your profile cfr, it seems you already have a start on a good MMA education.  You don't need my advice.    *




I appreciate your vote of confidence, but could still use some advice. I am hopefully going to start training again in another week or so (unless another injury is in my future.  The options are plenty but Ive got it down to 2 different styles. Either Kenpo or Muay Thai. I already have done a few months of Kenpo. I liked the school and the instuctor but forms make me want to kill myself. So I was thinking 1-2 years in MT and then heading to BJJ.  But then comes the rules, multiple apponents, no weapons arguments and I go back and forth over and over. Thats why I was hoping for advice from some of the guys that have been down both roads. Any thoughts.


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## Zepp (Jan 20, 2003)

Mind you this advice is coming from someone who is primarily a Tae Kwon Doist, but from my limited experience and from living vicariously:

A combined education in muay thai (particularly combative muay thai) and BJJ will make you more than a match for some schmuck who attacks you while you're walking to your car in a dark parking lot.  There's a lot of things that you'd do in practicing in any art that you wouldn't do in a street fight (like going down to the ground deliberately and going for a submission).  But that doesn't mean that what you learn won't be applicable to self-defense.

And you never know for sure that the schmuck in the dark parking lot won't try to take you down to the ground anyways.  If he succeeds, it won't matter if there's a second guy or not.  You still need to get out of whatever hold he's got you in before you can get up to fight them both.


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## J-kid (Jan 21, 2003)

Thats what they say or they might lose all there custmers.  Rules out side the ring MMA are twice as swavige as TMA.
Trust me you have no idea.

In my opion Most TMA dont work.

Sent a MMA vs TMA in a street fight
Both partys fighting dirty MMA will win. (i am saying if they are equal in all aspects.)

Only one way for you to truely find out. 

FIGHT ONE>?


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## James Kovacich (Jan 21, 2003)

You could see things a bit biased when you practice a certain way but realistically a mixed martial artist is going to train and either make it or break it. Meaning what does he do when he realizes he has no chance of being a contender, been continually busted up over a period of several years, will he continue being his classmates UKE, how many will continue to be able to train. I personally know someone that was punch drunk by the time he turned 22. He started training when he was 18.

I'm not saying which is better, not at all! I'm saying if you plan to train for the rest of your life (like a true martial artist), then you SHOULD find a mix that works for you. The number of techniques that are most "effective" are the same techniques that all mmartrists are learning. IF THEY ALL TRAIN THE SAME, THEN YOU NEED AN EDGE, THAT IS YOURS AND NOBODY ELSES. You do that by being exposed to more than what your competitors are training.

The problem is you need a specialty area. So say you train mma and every other day go to a bjj school, thats a good mix that rounds out all fighting ranges and you will continually learn new techniques.

It dosen't have to be bjj in the mix. Where you take your art is your buisness. What I'm saying you need a mix of all ranges and how you get it is your journey. 

My method of teaching is to teach the arts separately and together. The reasoning is all techniques need to be understood. Have you ever heard the term "position before submission," its a very true statement for the grappler but your postion isn't any good if you don't "understand" it. With a limited understanding you'll be passed, sweeped, pinned, submitted, knocked out, whatever, it all leads to "exposure" to techinque. If you want to add new variations "to your mix" that the other schools don't have, then you need more exposure to technique that you can adapt and modify as needed.

I'm not saying any schools out there are not teaching in a way that their students don't "understand." I'm validating the way I teach. If you learn your arts separately you will find techniques that work for you that others don't like, you will be exposed to more and you will have a deeper understanding. But you also need to develop a flow between your arts. 

THE NUMBER ONE MISTAKE IS LIMIT WHAT YOU PRACTICE. BOTH MMA AND TRAD. ARTS MAKE THAT MISTAKE!


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## ace (Jan 21, 2003)

I have practise a few styels.
1st if U can Fight in both Stand up & Ground Fighting
Then Whats Left is Weapons & Comonsence.

Also MMA/NHB Fighters Train Hard for
The Atheletic side to our Sport.

I have seen a lot of so called Traditional Martial Artist
Run out of Gas in Sparring in under 2:00 min.
MMA Fighters Train To Fight for at least 2 rounds 10min.
a piease or 3 -- 5 minuet rounds.

Also When U are Training U  Will get hit
most TMA practise stoping just before they hit the Target

When Grappling Happens Many are unfirmilar
with this type of attack & feel Like a Fish out of Water.

For self defence The goal is not to Win
But to escape Alive.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 21, 2003)

The way you train makes a big differance, thats exactly what I was saying. But you have to realize the MMA is just now becoming defined. Compare it now from 10 years ago. Its still evolving. 

MMA is an "art" but its not a "style!"  MMA draws its techniques from the "styles!" There are MMA "systems" but somebody else before them is the creator of the individual techniques which make up the "styles".

What we create as martial artists are new training methods but the "new" techniques aren't really new, we just haven't seen them in our generation. 

Its not right to say "so called traditional martial artist!" You know there are also "so called mixed martial artist" some of them in here!

I speak from experience, I'm 42 and I've been practicing martial arts off and on since I was 13. When I "roll" it is with 20 and 25 year olds and when your my age you probably won't have the "gas" any more. Most people aren't like me, I can run and train hard. But what I will teach a student if they have the "head" to learn it all, is how to beat any system that I've been exposed to!

Conditioning isn't so much a factor. Its a temporary state of condition for your body. You get hurt or stop conditioning, you lose it. So if your getting older what will you have? Hopefully some technique! Or you could do like a lot of people out there and teach without training.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 21, 2003)

If you hate forms, then you pretty much exclude many MA. 
For self defence, Krav Maga is effective.  Muay Thai works fine. There is also Jeet Kune Do.  These are the few with no forms or patterns or kata.

You may want to look into weapon arts such as knife, stick fighting etc.  Would be handy in facing multiple attackers.

Just my 2 cents.


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## J-kid (Jan 21, 2003)

I would have to say i hate alot of the unpractical Things in TMA, I would leave them alone if they didnt always say MMA is for ring and not self defense.  I do admit that Sometimes MMA make fun of TMA but alot of the time there is reason because the Training in MMA is more practical the Moves are offen more practical, You train to get hit and you train to fight if in ring or on street.  I dont under stand where TMAs think that MMA wont fight dirty.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 21, 2003)

There are alot of impractical things in a lot areas of our lives but they usually have a purpose. MMA are here to stay and the TMA isn't going away either. The trad. arts survived so long by adapting to the environment and modifying as needed. 

It takes time for some to wake up and see whats going on in the martial art world but if you look at the last 10 years, theres probably a higher percentage now of traditionalist learning to crosstrain, modify and adapt to the times.

11 or 12 years ago the number would of been way lower. But some will never change, thats OK, for them. Its sad that instead of seeing what we all have in common some people feel like they are getting pushed and refer to the extremes. 

With the people close to me, even my "seniors" I express my views in a passive way that they listen and maybe someday they will actually hear what I'm saying.

WITH WHAT I KNOW TODAY IF I HAD TO CHOOSE A SINGLE METHOD OF TRAINING I COULDN'T PICK A PURELY TRADITIONAL SYSTEM BECAUSE IT PROBABLY WOULDN'T COVER ALL RANGES AND I COULDN'T PICK A MMA SYSTEM EITHER UNLESS I FELT IT SUFFICIENTLY COVERED ALL RANGES COMPLETELY. SO I'D HAVE TO CHOOSE......................MY "KEMPO JUJITSU!"   IT WORKS FOR ME!


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## ace (Jan 23, 2003)

How much ground work is envolved???
I know a few guy's who do this styel
but they are also wrestlers in H. S.
{no im not in high school}
LoL 

When U Type of all ranges i asume u
are saying Kicking,Striking,Grappling & Weapons.

How often do u spar with weapons.
When u do are u allowed to cross in the differnt Ranges???


:yinyang:


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## cfr (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> WITH WHAT I KNOW TODAY IF I HAD TO CHOOSE A SINGLE METHOD OF TRAINING I COULDN'T PICK A PURELY TRADITIONAL SYSTEM BECAUSE IT PROBABLY WOULDN'T COVER ALL RANGES AND I COULDN'T PICK A MMA SYSTEM EITHER UNLESS I FELT IT SUFFICIENTLY COVERED ALL RANGES COMPLETELY. SO I'D HAVE TO CHOOSE......................MY "KEMPO JUJITSU!"   IT WORKS FOR ME! *



Did you learn both Kenpo and JuiJutsu @ the same time. Or were you several years into one and then start training in the other? Just curious.  What you are saying makes sense.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 23, 2003)

I don't spar with weapons, I only practice practical stick (escrima sticks) fighting for self defense.  A stick is the extension of the arm and if you learn a stick, you can handle a small sword. But in the street a stick is the weapon of choice to look around for. 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As for Jujitsu, I practiced BJJ for a little over 3 years on the side while training JKD. I've recently affiliated myself with some (traditional) "Senior" Instructors for higher learning. To name a couple I'm learning Geoge Kirbys Budoshin Jujitsu and George Alexanders Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu.

My Kempo Jujitsu is all mine! Its an accumulation Kempo, Jun Fan Gung-Fu, BJJ and Trad. Jujitsu. Kempo and Jun Fan Gung-Fu are the base about 65% and BJJ and Trad. Jujitsu are complimentary, about 35% of "my way. "Trad. Jujitsu makes BJJ way for street lethal. BJJ gets you in the position to tie someone up really good and then its about how you finish! Its my way of training in all ranges effectively but more over its the way I teach. Its real. If you get knocked on you *** and you always said that you didn't need to grapple, then you deserve to get stomped, because you could of covered that base!


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 23, 2003)

anything known can be used as defense. fortunatley, mma is the most effective thing. since its a combo of arts that specialize in different areas. also the moves are VERY practical. choose a combo where the training ISNT abstract. you need full contact, like boxing, muay thai, bjj, judo


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## James Kovacich (Jan 23, 2003)

MMA is like the silent partner to my training, its there but its not what the world sees. Heavy training combined with technique. Technique finishes a fight. A pounding finishes a fight but its not practical to practice that way. 

I put a bit of time in BJJ and was beat time and again by technique! Truth is most guys I roll with wouldn't know how to deal with what I see but when you "rolling," you're there to just "roll." 

Theres a time for full contact but if it was mandatory then 90% of the worlds martial artists would be wasting their time and this would include many great people.

MMA is very well balanced but its far from defined yet. The majority of the "winning techniques" that we see are "mostly" the same winning techniques. What does that tell you? Well those ranges and those particular techniques are important to be at a minimum "understood," preferably mastered!

But what I'm saying is with everybody practicing the "same way," the same "type" of techniques that set the standard for MMA. Then for the mixed martial artist to personally make a statement in the MMA world they are going to need an edge, "TECHNIQUE THAT FITS THE FORMAT!" 

They need trainers (and they are out there) that are thinking just like I'm telling you now! The average BJJ school, not enough! The average Muy Thai school, not enough! The trainers are behind the fighters, the fighters get the glory but the trainers make a fighter a fighter!!


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## ace (Jan 24, 2003)

U can never pre detemin the out come of the fight.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *U can never pre detemin the out come of the fight. *



That is why I teach the way I do, If you cover all the bases then the "winner" of a fight should be the better fighter. If you only train what everybody else trains or very similar then you are lowering the odds of you being the better fighter.

Theres no getting around heavey training, but "controlled" rolling will teach you each grappling position, positions lead to control, if you can control your opponent then you should be able to fininsh in a way you choose.

Same goes for standup. If I a guy is going all out. How do you keep control of him? Not easy, thats why you have to train in all ranges, a fight can head in any direction and at any second the outcome can change directions for the better or for the worse.

I have a way of  training for standup that works for me but the bottom line is you have to be prepared to fight no matter where the fight ends up.


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## JDenz (Jan 25, 2003)

No offense to the guys that Primo is talking about  but neither one of them are that good for the amount of time they have been training.  Not only that they use alot more wrestling then anykind of JJ


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## ace (Jan 27, 2003)

But they are Young & geting better.
Chance said he wants to train with us this summer
Bill Will no dout be looking for revenge.


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## JDenz (Jan 27, 2003)

Ya for real


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## KenpoTess (Dec 6, 2005)

Todays' thoughts?


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## Andrew Green (Dec 7, 2005)

Self-defence is too wide of a subject area, MMA covers some areas but not others.

Like if I can play guitar, and say the electric guitar is "good" or even "best" for music. Then get told to play Mozart...  maybe not the best for that.

Self-defence is mostly non-physical, but ignoring that aspect, there are still many different situations:

weapons, MMA is not the best for this.

Someone is being a pain, physical control is needed, just to get that pain compliance but not neccessarily escalate to a fight, again, MMA is not the best for this.

Anything other then a one on one?  Might work ok, but most never train it..

One on one fight?  This is where MMA shines, but it is only one aspect of self-defence, and for most people not at the top of the list of likelyness to be needed.

MMA is best used for fun, fitness, sport, social activity, and just cause you love it. Self-defence aspects are side-effects, not goals.


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## MJS (Dec 7, 2005)

I'd say that for a 1 on 1 fight, it would be good, as it covers punching, kicking, clinching, takedowns and grappling.  Once mult. attackers and weapons are brought into the picture, I would think things would take a different turn.

Mike


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## arnisador (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, it's great for a one-on-one _weaponless_ fight...in effect, a duel. Which is what they train for!


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## Andrew Green (Dec 7, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, it's great for a one-on-one _weaponless_ fight...in effect, a duel. Which is what they train for!



Weapons can be integrated quite nicely, The Dog Brothers being probably the most well known example of doing so.  But most people don't do it


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 8, 2005)

By MMA do you mean "what you see in a UFC match" then, well, that's a sport competition and it will or will not translate to a street fight based on a lot personal and individual things not  really related to the sport

If by MMA you mean, "studying multiple arts for the sake of putting together a comprehensive and balanced approach to self-defense in all situations" then yeah, MMA is good for self-defense


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