# Helping Students Deal With Bullying



## ravenofthewood

I'm looking for advice regarding a situation I'm dealing with with one of my students (we'll call him Johnny).

Johnny has been coming to taekwondo for about two years. He comes from a very difficult background (broken family, etc.), and is very emotionally sensitive and lacks confidence and self-esteem as a result. Last year, he was always talking about how he didn't have any friends at school. This year, he changed schools, and I just found out yesterday there has been a gang of about four boys bullying him and trying to beat him up. The situation has reached the point where he is scared to go to school. His dad says, while Johnny is telling authorities about what's happening, he doesn't have the self-confidence to do anything to try to protect himself. The school won't do anything about the situation and claims it can only give warnings right now.

Johnny needs more confidence, not so he can become a fighter, but so that he can at least protect himself against the bullies. Typically, learning a martial art gives a child the confidence they need to not be a victim. Unfortunately, the instructor who taught at this location before me (I have been at this location about 6 months) did nothing to build up his confidence, and, I suspect, a lot to tear it down. For most of his martial arts journey, therefore, taekwondo has not been a place to build up his confidence.

Basically, I'm looking for suggestions of things I can specifically do in class to help build up Johnny's confidence. Also, what do you tell your students to do when they're dealing with a gang of bullies, rather than a single bully?


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## MA_Student

Frankly there's not much you can do against a gang you try and fight them you'll get your *** kicked badly. Best thing is to avoid or run away


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## Anarax

ravenofthewood said:


> I'm looking for advice regarding a situation I'm dealing with with one of my students (we'll call him Johnny).
> 
> Johnny has been coming to taekwondo for about two years. He comes from a very difficult background (broken family, etc.), and is very emotionally sensitive and lacks confidence and self-esteem as a result. Last year, he was always talking about how he didn't have any friends at school. This year, he changed schools, and I just found out yesterday there has been a gang of about four boys bullying him and trying to beat him up. The situation has reached the point where he is scared to go to school. His dad says, while Johnny is telling authorities about what's happening, he doesn't have the self-confidence to do anything to try to protect himself. The school won't do anything about the situation and claims it can only give warnings right now.
> 
> Johnny needs more confidence, not so he can become a fighter, but so that he can at least protect himself against the bullies. Typically, learning a martial art gives a child the confidence they need to not be a victim. Unfortunately, the instructor who taught at this location before me (I have been at this location about 6 months) did nothing to build up his confidence, and, I suspect, a lot to tear it down. For most of his martial arts journey, therefore, taekwondo has not been a place to build up his confidence.
> 
> Basically, I'm looking for suggestions of things I can specifically do in class to help build up Johnny's confidence. Also, what do you tell your students to do when they're dealing with a gang of bullies, rather than a single bully?



From my experience confidence usually increases when one sees improvement in their abilities. Being able to hold your own against a sparring partner that use to overwhelm you, striking with more power, being able to execute more techniques in sparring successfully. Think of ways to show Johnny how he's grown as a Martial Artist. I would train Johnny how not to look intimidated by the gang, I know that's not easy considering there's four of them. However; it's amazing how something as simple as proper body language can deter a potentially dangerous situation. 

The next type of training would be on what to do when if and when they get physical. How old is Johnny? I ask because that will change the training I'm about to suggest. I'll change my advice accordingly after you respond. When facing multiple attackers the best solution, if you can't escape, is making an example of just one person. I know this might sound dark, but it's a psychological tactic that works. Teach him to show how devastating he can be to just one of them, the others will hesitate to mess with him then. If that doesn't work, he can make another example out of another one of them. It's crucial to teach not to exceed what's necessary or else he could get in trouble.


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## ravenofthewood

Unfortunately, this same lack of confidence caused Johnny to quit sparring classes; he felt overwhelmed and like he was getting "beat up" all the time. But, yes, I can definitely see other areas where he has grown that I can point out to him. Thank you!

Johnny is eleven. One other thing I neglected to mention is that he was being bullied all last year and didn't tell anyone about it. He then reacted quite violently one day after the bully gave him a bloody nose and a black eye, and got in major trouble because of it. This year, however, he's in a different school, without that past history, and his teacher and the administration know what is going on.


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## hoshin1600

ravenofthewood said:


> I'm looking for advice regarding a situation I'm dealing with with one of my students (we'll call him Johnny).
> 
> Johnny has been coming to taekwondo for about two years. He comes from a very difficult background (broken family, etc.), and is very emotionally sensitive and lacks confidence and self-esteem as a result. Last year, he was always talking about how he didn't have any friends at school. This year, he changed schools, and I just found out yesterday there has been a gang of about four boys bullying him and trying to beat him up. The situation has reached the point where he is scared to go to school. His dad says, while Johnny is telling authorities about what's happening, he doesn't have the self-confidence to do anything to try to protect himself. The school won't do anything about the situation and claims it can only give warnings right now.
> 
> Johnny needs more confidence, not so he can become a fighter, but so that he can at least protect himself against the bullies. Typically, learning a martial art gives a child the confidence they need to not be a victim. Unfortunately, the instructor who taught at this location before me (I have been at this location about 6 months) did nothing to build up his confidence, and, I suspect, a lot to tear it down. For most of his martial arts journey, therefore, taekwondo has not been a place to build up his confidence.
> 
> Basically, I'm looking for suggestions of things I can specifically do in class to help build up Johnny's confidence. Also, what do you tell your students to do when they're dealing with a gang of bullies, rather than a single bully?



This is just my personal opinion.
There is nothing you can do.  So stop thinking that you can.  Self confidence is one of those BS marketing things that is used to get parents to think martial arts will be good for their kids and fork out their money every month.  I have been around a long time and not once have I ever met an instructor who had the faintest clue on how to deliver on that promise.
The best you can do is make his classes fun so it becomes a santuary for him and his life to be a little less hellish.


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## Steve

Have you had a chance to talk to the parents and see what they think?


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## drop bear

Johnny needs a ring fight.


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## ravenofthewood

Steve said:


> Have you had a chance to talk to the parents and see what they think?



His dad was the one who brought the issue to my attention and asked if I could think of ways to help him develop confidence.


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## Anarax

ravenofthewood said:


> Unfortunately, this same lack of confidence caused Johnny to quit sparring classes; he felt overwhelmed and like he was getting "beat up" all the time. But, yes, I can definitely see other areas where he has grown that I can point out to him. Thank you!
> 
> Johnny is eleven. One other thing I neglected to mention is that he was being bullied all last year and didn't tell anyone about it. He then reacted quite violently one day after the bully gave him a bloody nose and a black eye, and got in major trouble because of it. This year, however, he's in a different school, without that past history, and his teacher and the administration know what is going on.



Try starting him off extremely light in sparring then build him up from there. He just needs to get through that initial insecurity when it comes to sparring, after that it will get easier. If you're concerned about his sparring partner going too hard, spar him yourself. Try get him to do blocks on those soft clubs that instructors use for kids, something combative yet not too hard.


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## MA_Student

drop bear said:


> Johnny needs a ring fight.


No he really doesn't....if he's so bad with confidence he won't even spar he's hardly going to do that is he....and then if he gets beaten easily that's his confidence gone down even less


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## Tez3

Some practical advice.  http://www.rcga.org/_uploads/docume...help build self-esteem in young children_.pdf

This is for school teachers but contains confidence building advice Boosting pupils' self-esteem


I would talk to the parents and see if you can work together with them. Well done by the way on wanting to help, all of us can do something to help children who are bullying, sometimes just supporting them helps. Bullying advice | Bullying UK

and finally this https://www.andyjeffries.co.uk/bullying-children-and-the-martial-arts/

I haven't seen Andy post here for a bit but a PM might be worth trying.


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## hoshin1600

Tez3 said:


> Some practical advice.  http://www.rcga.org/_uploads/documents/L2P/EN/pg_110-111_How can coaches help build self-esteem in young children_.pdf
> 
> This is for school teachers but contains confidence building advice Boosting pupils' self-esteem
> 
> 
> I would talk to the parents and see if you can work together with them. Well done by the way on wanting to help, all of us can do something to help children who are bullying, sometimes just supporting them helps. Bullying advice | Bullying UK
> 
> and finally this Bullying: Children and the Martial Arts
> 
> I haven't seen Andy post here for a bit but a PM might be worth trying.


I didnt read everything but i read a few of the links and while they are good for "starting a conversation"  as usual they really are not much help.  They repeat "tell a teacher"  it's become a phrase that drives me crazy because in most cases it doesn't help.  It's a common among those who never went thru it to say things like that. It's like telling someone with depression to cheer up.


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## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> I didnt read everything but i read a few of the links and while they are good for "starting a conversation"  as usual they really are not much help.  They repeat "tell a teacher"  it's become a phrase that drives me crazy because in most cases it doesn't help.  It's a common among those who never went thru it to say things like that. It's like telling someone with depression to cheer up.



Are you so sure that people who say that haven't gone through it? And are you so sure that telling a teacher doesn't help?

I think you missed the points I was making...not 'tell the teacher' I'm not offering advice on the actual bullying but was *making points about how a martial arts instructor ( or another) can help a child gain confidence in the martial arts class and hopefully outside as well.
*
The first link is about building self confidence, not about bullying specifically. The second link was to help identify different types of bullying. And the last link from Andy starts
_"I think most people that know me are aware I got started in Taekwondo because I was being bullied at school. I was bullied in junior school (6-11 years old ish) and was bullied from 11-13 years old at senior school (even though I was told that it would be a different group of kids, the bullies from junior school weren't going to be there)._

_So, I have a deep understanding of what it's like to be bullied and to be helpless. And because I started Taekwondo at the age of 12 I know what it's like to over time feel more confident and be bullied less. So I wanted to cover some of the myths of bullying, the advice that people often give bullying victims and how martial arts training can help_."


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## drop bear

MA_Student said:


> No he really doesn't....if he's so bad with confidence he won't even spar he's hardly going to do that is he....and then if he gets beaten easily that's his confidence gone down even less



He has to do something important. Prove to himself he can.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

I agree with DB, a ring fight could be good for him. It would give him a goal to have him something to focus on and make it bearable, and once he can prove to himself he can do it his confidence will probably raise, regardless of of he wins of loses. Depending on the kid, of course.

As for my own experience, I lacked self confidence, so would get bullied, but also had no issue getting violent. So I was in a cycle of "be bullied, after a few months fight one of the bullies & win, have bullying stop, repeat a few years later", up until high school when all the different groups finally got the idea it was not a good idea to bully me/my friends. Encouraging him to defend himself when someone is bullying him one on one, then focusing on building his self confidence after that incident so he doesn't get bullied again may work.


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## lklawson

kempodisciple said:


> I agree with DB, a ring fight could be good for him. It would give him a goal to have him something to focus on and make it bearable, and once he can prove to himself he can do it his confidence will probably raise, regardless of of he wins of loses. Depending on the kid, of course.
> 
> As for my own experience, I lacked self confidence, so would get bullied, but also had no issue getting violent. So I was in a cycle of "be bullied, after a few months fight one of the bullies & win, have bullying stop, repeat a few years later", up until high school when all the different groups finally got the idea it was not a good idea to bully me/my friends. Encouraging him to defend himself when someone is bullying him one on one, then focusing on building his self confidence after that incident so he doesn't get bullied again may work.


"Zero Tolerance" policies have ensured that this no longer works.  The victim is punished equally with the assailant.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

lklawson said:


> "Zero Tolerance" policies have ensured that this no longer works.  The victim is punished equally with the assailant.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I'm not too familiar with how it works, but considering I'm only 24 I assume it hasn't changed too much. I did get suspended once when it occurred in school. Outside of that, I would always fight back outside of school property, so the school did not (could not?) take any steps about it. Does anyone know if this is still the case?

If it is, my advice stands, and sometimes a suspension is worth it. If it will cause Johnny to get expelled obviously this strategy is no longer viable.


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## MA_Student

kempodisciple said:


> I agree with DB, a ring fight could be good for him. It would give him a goal to have him something to focus on and make it bearable, and once he can prove to himself he can do it his confidence will probably raise, regardless of of he wins of loses. Depending on the kid, of course.
> 
> As for my own experience, I lacked self confidence, so would get bullied, but also had no issue getting violent. So I was in a cycle of "be bullied, after a few months fight one of the bullies & win, have bullying stop, repeat a few years later", up until high school when all the different groups finally got the idea it was not a good idea to bully me/my friends. Encouraging him to defend himself when someone is bullying him one on one, then focusing on building his self confidence after that incident so he doesn't get bullied again may work.


And what if he gets knocked out in 10 seconds what does that do for his confidence


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

MA_Student said:


> And what if he gets knocked out in 10 seconds what does that do for his confidence


If his teacher finds an 11 year old that can knock someone out in 10 seconds, and chooses that for the match, I think there are a lot more issues than just his confidence.


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## MA_Student

kempodisciple said:


> If his teacher finds an 11 year old that can knock someone out in 10 seconds, and chooses that for the match, I think there are a lot more issues than just his confidence.


Anyone can knock anyone out especially if they're the same age and size and frankly 11 years old fighting in the ring is just sick and dangerous in my eyes


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## hoshin1600

Tez3 said:


> I think you missed the points I was making...not 'tell the teacher''


i am not really against your own words or post.  i read one of your links and it advised to tell the teacher and that was really the only advise it had.


Tez3 said:


> And are you so sure that telling a teacher doesn't help?


yes i am so sure.  been there done that.  bullies are not stupid.  they know how to make themselves look innocent and are smart enough to do things when the teacher is not around or outside of school.

posted from your own link
_"This is one of the more sound pieces of advice. The victim is inherently being hurt (mentally or physically) by someone else and the nature of telling an adult will stop the problem. But here's the unwritten part of that sentence "...until that adult is no longer around".

I can tell you from very emotional personal experience that bullies often don't walk up and hit you in front of the "dinner ladies", "teachers" or any other helpers. They do it when you're walking between classes, or out on the field - or even worse on your way home. Once when I told the teachers I was getting hit on the way home (and kicked off my bike) the teacher's response was "we can't do anything about it, it's not happening on school property".
And then there's the knock-on effect. Let's say that it happens at lunch time at school, the victim tells a teacher. The teacher then comes over and speaks to the bully and the other children around. The bully denies it (of course, for someone whose general acts are physical violence, lying is a much more minor crime). The others around generally fall in to one of a few camps: the bully's friends, independents who don't want to become a victim or independents who simply don't want to become involved. So there'll be a round of "[the victim] started it" or "I didn't see anything, I was looking over there...". So now the bully got off scot-free and is angry that the victim got someone else involved - so yet more pain._



Tez3 said:


> I'm not offering advice on the actual bullying but was *making points about how a martial arts instructor ( or another) can help a child gain confidence in the martial arts class and hopefully outside as well.*


that is fine as long as people understand confidence and self esteem could take years to see a change.  by the time the self image improves the bulling has probably passed and Johnny is in college.  so it is really not a solution to bulling but rather a method to improve long term well being.


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## drop bear

MA_Student said:


> And what if he gets knocked out in 10 seconds what does that do for his confidence



Then he has suffered the worst of it and not died. Even that is a confidence boost.


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## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> i am not really against your own words or post. i read one of your links and it advised to tell the teacher and that was really the only advise it had.



I'm thinking you didn't read either all or you read the wrong bit.



hoshin1600 said:


> _This is one of the more sound pieces of advice. The victim is inherently being hurt (mentally or physically) by someone else and the nature of telling an adult will stop the problem. But here's the unwritten part of that sentence "...until that adult is no longer around".
> 
> I can tell you from very emotional personal experience that bullies often don't walk up and hit you in front of the "dinner ladies", "teachers" or any other helpers. They do it when you're walking between classes, or out on the field - or even worse on your way home. Once when I told the teachers I was getting hit on the way home (and kicked off my bike) the teacher's response was "we can't do anything about it, it's not happening on school property".
> And then there's the knock-on effect. Let's say that it happens at lunch time at school, the victim tells a teacher. The teacher then comes over and speaks to the bully and the other children around. The bully denies it (of course, for someone whose general acts are physical violence, lying is a much more minor crime). The others around generally fall in to one of a few camps: the bully's friends, independents who don't want to become a victim or independents who simply don't want to become involved. So there'll be a round of "[the victim] started it" or "I didn't see anything, I was looking over there...". So now the bully got off scot-free and is angry that the victim got someone else involved - so yet more pain._



I think you need to take that up with @andyjeffries 

You seem to be focussed on something I'm not and determined to make an argument about telling teacher etc. That's not why I posted.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

MA_Student said:


> Anyone can knock anyone out especially if they're the same age and size and frankly 11 years old fighting in the ring is just sick and dangerous in my eyes


To have kids fight for entertainment would absolutely be sick. That's not what either of us are suggesting. A one-time fight to boost confidence. The thing is,
A: again, the chances of him getting knocked out by an 11 year old that was determined to be an equal match is slim to none. It's the same idea behind why you see more knockouts in heavier weight classes, except now they have the muscle strength not of a skinny guy, but of an 11 year old.
B: you're not building his confidence by having him win. You're giving him a goal of "you are capable of fighting. I believe you are capable, and I want you to prove it to me." In that context, as long as he gets in the ring and gets past the fear of fighting, it's a win, and his confidence will likely be higher by achieving his goal, and knowing he is able to fight if push comes to shove.


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## hoshin1600

from the posted link....
_"The primary way it  _(martial arts) _helps is that regularly practicing the martial arts will give them the self-confidence to not need it. Martial artists feel an inner confidence from knowing that they've spent many hours practicing each move, that it's powerful and swift. There may be better techniques (there's always more to learn, even at my current Taekwondo 7th Dan level) but there comes a point where you know enough to think "I may get hurt, but I KNOW they'll get hurt if they try it!".

And having that inward self-confidence projects outwards. The timid/shy persona that bullies are attracted to like sharks sensing blood in the water gradually fades away."
_
from my own experience i think this is misunderstood.  again self image problems take a really long time to adjust and so does learning traditional martial arts, so by the time one gains profiency and confidence the bulling stopped long ago.  also *we all know there is no guarantee that martial arts classes will provide the ability to defend ones self.* 

so what happens when Johnny starts taking karate lessons and the bully finds out and makes a mockery about it and still beats up Johnny even worse because Johnny sucks at karate..???? how does Johnny feel then?


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## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> from the posted link....
> _"The primary way it  _(martial arts) _helps is that regularly practicing the martial arts will give them the self-confidence to not need it. Martial artists feel an inner confidence from knowing that they've spent many hours practicing each move, that it's powerful and swift. There may be better techniques (there's always more to learn, even at my current Taekwondo 7th Dan level) but there comes a point where you know enough to think "I may get hurt, but I KNOW they'll get hurt if they try it!".
> 
> And having that inward self-confidence projects outwards. The timid/shy persona that bullies are attracted to like sharks sensing blood in the water gradually fades away."
> _
> from my own experience i think this is misunderstood.  again self image problems take a really long time to adjust and so does learning traditional martial arts, so by the time one gains profiency and confidence the bulling stopped long ago.  also *we all know there is no guarantee that martial arts classes will provide the ability to defend ones self.*
> 
> so what happens when Johnny starts taking karate lessons and the bully finds out and makes a mockery about it and still beats up Johnny even worse because Johnny sucks at karate..???? how does Johnny feel then?



The person who wrote that is a poster here on MT, please address your comments to him. it's advice he has found works for him, you are talking about your experience but your experience is not everyone's. I work with children, I teach children martial arts and each situation is difference, sometimes it actually takes very little to change a person's view of themselves, sometimes it may take longer. Generalisation and picking arguments with me doesn't help the OP who so far has been given appalling advice and posts full of doom and gloom. I think your pessimistic view is just that.. pessimistic and by quite a long way actually wrong. I have worked with possibly thousands of children by now, and I do reject your doom laden and depressing point of view.


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## hoshin1600

Tez3 said:


> The person who wrote that is a poster here on MT, please address your comments to him. it's advice he has found works for him, you are talking about your experience but your experience is not everyone's. I work with children, I teach children martial arts and each situation is difference, sometimes it actually takes very little to change a person's view of themselves, sometimes it may take longer. Generalisation and picking arguments with me doesn't help the OP who so far has been given appalling advice and posts full of doom and gloom. I think your pessimistic view is just that.. pessimistic and by quite a long way actually wrong. I have worked with possibly thousands of children by now, and I do reject your doom laden and depressing point of view.



to be clear i am not actually arguing with you, although it might appear that way.  i was/ am more just using your links to juxtapost my own thoughts on the subject.
am i gloom and doom?   so far it may appear that way..so fair enough.   
i am far from done on making my point, i just happen to be at work so i cant make a long post....please bare with me.... i will try to get what i think does work.


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## andyjeffries

hoshin1600 said:


> I didnt read everything but i read a few of the links and while they are good for "starting a conversation"  as usual they really are not much help.  They repeat "tell a teacher"  it's become a phrase that drives me crazy because in most cases it doesn't help.  It's a common among those who never went thru it to say things like that. It's like telling someone with depression to cheer up.



I see you say you didn't read anything, but my post explicitly says the "tell a teacher" strategy is a bad one.


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## Steve

ravenofthewood said:


> His dad was the one who brought the issue to my attention and asked if I could think of ways to help him develop confidence.


Okay.  that's actually a good thing.  My recommendation would be to encourage the dad to take the kid to see a professional counselor.  The counselor can help the kid talk things through and will hopefully be able to give the kid some tools to help him deal with the stress and pressure of being bullied.  These generally include sessions with the kid alone and also family sessions with the dad and/or mom participating.

Then, hopefully, the dad will be able to talk to you more specifically about what you can do to help.


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## andyjeffries

Thanks for the sharing of my links and notification to the post @Tez3.

My post was definitely an opinion piece and an attempt to give me somewhere to refer parents to when they say "my child is being bullied, I've tried X but it didn't work" to explain why those things don't work. I'm not saying the article is perfect, nor that it will work for everyone - but I have experience of being bullied (and having turned it around) and of teaching children being bullied.

That being said, I'm not saying starting a martial art will see the bullying end a week later. It can take years and to be honest there's not much you can do to speed that up, as you rightly say changing can take years - however, from my experience the problem wasn't going away. The reason is the IMHO bullies are attracted to a certain mindset/personality (one that will bend to their will, while providing amusement) and there will always be bullies. So thinking that "ignore the problem long enough and it will go away" won't work.

As for specific advice for a martial arts teacher with a student with a bullying problem I would focus on the following things:

1) Ensure they are doing self defence training as part of the martial art (e.g. dealing with common situations, asking them "how does it normally start, how do people grab/push/hit/whatever you?")

2) Ensure they are hitting targets - power shields, mitts, whatever. They need to get used to feeling of delivering power. Seeing how hard the pad moves or the sound it makes when you hit it gives confidence in "maybe I'm not as weak as I thought".

3) They need to be sparring with some level of contact. Normally in our class we don't have people spar until after their first grading, but if I know a student is a bullying victim then I'll get them in earlier. This starts to teach them a)distance management and b)that being hit isn't as bad as you think, when you get used to it.

4) You definitely want to raise their confidence. This doesn't mean going over the top if they get stance right "Well done, little Johnny, you're almost a ninja, outstanding work! You'll be running the classes soon". But just if they strike well, or move/manage distance well, if they get a knock in sparring but carry on anyway then a little "well done mate" or "great job, keep it up" really helps.

Just to share a recent sad anecdote... My club has a year-long waiting list to join (we have high standards, are run in a professional manner, charge low fees, have a great reputation locally - not blowing my own trumpet just explaining why), but I had a parent join me and actually say the following (paraphrasing) "Little Johnny really needs to do a martial art soon, he's been bullied for a few years but over the past year he's really finding it embarrassing". My heart nearly broke - he'll have been finding it embarrassing always, that he's been so powerless and belittled he'd just started speaking to his parents about it and of course was embarrassed having to talk about it. Of course, after I spoke to him he jumped the queue and joined immediately. He's been with us for about a year and as far as his parents (and he) says, the bullying has stopped now.

It's not saying I don't think it would stop anyway (although it had been happening for years with no sign of stopping), nor that I'm the world's best teacher and I can always get results like this (a no-bullying-after-one-year-guarantee), but I think martial arts is the only reliable way of making it stop.

Schools have a zero tolerance policy to violence and I understand that. My own son had a fight with someone at school when he was about 8-9. School threatened to suspend both children. I spoke them and said the following. My son was attacked while in your care, he acted within the law using self-defence (he was very restrained and did the minimum needed to stop the attack and the other boy and witnesses confirmed that) and therefore you have failed in your duty of care towards him. If you compound that now by suspending him along with the attacker, then we'll have no choice but to get the police involved and your governing body and the local council. Suffice to say, the other boy was punished and my son had no punishment.

Most organisations have policies, but law takes precedence and knowing your rights under the law can help guide these conversations.


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## Tez3

Thank you so much Andy for responding, I do appreciate it.  My links weren't for the advice given to those being bullied in respect of 'tell the teacher', but to help the OP with some advice of helping his student gain confidence. The advice wasn't about the actual bullying but for things the OP could do to help. 
Hoshin you have picked out the one thing that bothers you but frankly is irrelevant in what I saying. The OP is looking for things he can do to make his student more confident and raising his self esteem, things that are within a martial arts instructor's experience and remit. An instructor telling a student to tell the teacher, even if it were good advice, isn't what the OP was asking for. He wants strategies for teaching martial arts that will work to raise the confidence of a martial arts student first and foremost. We have to be careful as instructors we don't take on things that are outside our zone of expertise. We can however do our best to make sure our students have confidence in their martial arts and as we know that does have knock on effects outside the dojo/class.


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## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> please bare with me



that's a little too personal for me!


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## Danny T

Coping with bullying is much more than being able to fight back. I agree with Steve on a counselor. Being bullied once or twice is one thing but to be constantly and now going to another school and it happens there as well I believe there are some underlying issues particular to the individual we are not aware of.
As to having the confidence to actually defend one's self in my experience the number one thing I have found is the persons fear of being hit and not knowing what to do. So we start them off by giving them some very basic defensive structures and how to cover and then work on what we call 'stand your ground' drills. We slowly and lightly punch at the person who can't move their feet but can cover, slip, bob, & parry. After several sessions they actually begin to grow confident they can prevent being hit. As they become more comfortable we increase the speed and power of the strikes. During this period we have them punching on others doing the same drill and their confidence to be able to strike as well as the operatant conditioning of being struck and defending builds confidence in their abilities to be struck and still fight back. It doesn't take long when done at the level the student can handle mentally and physically to get them to the point they see the punches coming at them and them can start striking back. That is when their confidence in being able to defend themselves soars.


----------



## Tez3

Danny T said:


> Coping with bullying is much more than being able to fight back



it certainly is I agree which is why I think we have to just do what we are good at and not try to be counsellors and psychologists. We need to do our part in teaching martial arts so students become more confident in themselves and to raise their self esteem. To be honest doing any sport or activity and seeing yourself make progress, being praised for doing well when you know you are will do this but as we do martial arts, I'll stick to just that. Doing martial arts is about more than defending yourself, for one thing it can be a place where there is no bullying, where you are accepted just as a student not a victim, where you have the possibility of doing something well under good instruction. Just that will help a person who is bullied,( or who has been a victim of any crime) we shouldn't try to do more than we are qualified to do but do what we do well and it will have some effect. it will be part of the solution not the whole solution.


----------



## Danny T

Tez3 said:


> Doing martial arts is about more than defending yourself, for one thing it can be a place where there is no bullying, where you are accepted just as a student not a victim, where you have the possibility of doing something well under good instruction. Just that will help a person who is bullied,( or who has been a victim of any crime) we shouldn't try to do more than we are qualified to do but do what we do well and it will have some effect. it will be part of the solution not the whole solution.


^^^^^^
THIS!!! I knew I liked you for more than your wit. Thank you ma'am.


----------



## hoshin1600

Andy, thank you for your post and your blog post.  i agree with what you have said.

 Tez, again i am not in disagreement with you however


Tez3 said:


> Hoshin you have picked out the one thing that bothers you but frankly is irrelevant in what I saying. The OP is looking for things he can do to make his student more confident and raising his self esteem,



at its core bullying is a result of low self esteem in many cases.  low self esteem is really a psychology  issue more than a violence issue. ( violence is only one manifistation)   when the OP says that the parent asked the instructor on how to help with Johnnys self esteem i feel this is misdirected. as martial artists ( more here in America) we have been marketing this "confidence and self esteem" and frankly we have no idea how to facilitate those kind of results this is more the work for therapists rather than a martial arts school.  if Jane had low self esteem and was suffering from bulimia we would not be asking her cheer leading coach on what to do.
as MA instructors we profess to promote self esteem but we dont know how to facilitate the results.  we leave those results to chance.   ( they do often happen but happen organiclly and not by design)  what i am saying is stop marketing this phrase unless you ( general you ) or someone on staff is a therapist or have consulted one and have incorporated these best practices into your curriculum.  i would like to see more professionalism in the instruction.


----------



## Steve

One good thing is that in Canada the family should be able to get this child some qualified assistance.  

There have been some solid points made in this thread. The one thing I really appreciate is the nod to professional qualified assistance.  

I'm glad to see that even tez3 is on board with this as in past threads she has made some pretty harsh comments about the value of seeing a therapist or counselor.


----------



## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> frankly we have no idea how to facilitate those kind of results



Speak for yourself.



hoshin1600 said:


> as MA instructors we profess to promote self esteem but we dont know how to facilitate the results. we leave those results to chance



Do we? Perhaps some you know do but most I know don't. They do actually know how to promote it because frankly it's not rocket science. We teach our own children after all, at least most of us do. *It's far simpler than you think.* It means treating people with respect, kindness and in a civilised manner. You accept people for who and what they are, you don't bully, hector or belittle them, you treat them as you would want to be treated. This goes  a long way to building up how people think about themselves. When someone sees others treating them with respect they first wonder why but often as other's opinions mean more than their own they will accept that if they are being treated that way they must be worth it ( the obverse is true, treat someone badly enough for long enough they will think they are worthless, often found in domestic abuse). Thinking they are worthwhile becomes their own thoughts after a while.

I think in some societies there is a dependence on 'counselling' and therapy, that you need to be a therapist to be able to make people feel better. for mental health issues one needs professional help but it doesn't mean that we have to stand back and think our contribution is pointless. People with 'low self esteem' often feel worthless, it's is very easy for us if we are decent people to treat them as they should be treated... as valued students worth teaching and being in class with. Raised self esteem comes from that, it's not chance and it's not quantifiable, we do know however it happens when we teach properly. 

No, I've never had low self esteem nor lack of confidence, quite simply because of the way I was brought up. 

Martial arts instructors don't have to do anything 'special' to raise self esteem, just what we should be doing anyway. *It's not a specialist subject, it's treating people properly*. For most people with low self esteem they can't be 'given' it but will discover it for themselves by being treated as a worthwhile human being and by succeeding in projects such as learning martial arts.


----------



## Tez3

If you look here... Top Ten Facts about Low Self Esteem  it dispels some myths about self esteem, including the one about bullying coming from people with low self esteem. Simply telling people they are 'great' etc doesn't work, but how you treat people does.

_"Contrary to popular opinion, people with low self-esteem tend to be very sure of themselves. That's the problem. This manifests in their conviction that they are worthless or inadequate. As you will know if you have ever tried to argue with someone who puts themselves down continually, it is very hard to do! When someone with low self esteem starts to become less sure of their own opinion of themselves and therefore begins to assess counter evidence regarding their worthlessness, their self image begins to become more healthy. At first the "ugly" duckling was certain it was a failed duck but that misdirected certainty had to loosen before its true life direction could become clear._

_Good self esteem is actually a by-product of living in a healthy way. So rather than trying to raise it directly it's easier to focus elsewhere (such on what a person does) and let self esteem rise as a happy side effect of a change in living. "_

_"For anyone to be psychologically and physically healthy then core needs have to be fulfilled. Being clear about what you need and making efforts to meet those needs constructively means you'll naturally have better self esteem as a by-product of living well._

_This is useful list of basic human needs:_


_ The need to give and receive attention_
_ The need to look after your body._
_ The need for meaning, purpose and goals._
_ The need for a connection to something greater than ourselves_
_ The need for creativity and stimulation_
_ The need for intimacy and connection to others._
_ The need for a sense of control_
_ The need for a sense of status and recognition from others._
_ The need for a sense of safety and security._
_Of course, it is likely that at any one time, one or more of these may be slightly lacking in your life, without dire consequences. However, in the long-term, they must all be catered for one way or another."
_
As martial arts instructors we can certainly help with several of those.


----------



## hoshin1600

Tez3 said:


> Martial arts instructors don't have to do anything 'special' to raise self esteem, just what we should be doing anyway. *It's not a specialist subject, it's treating people properly*.





Tez3 said:


> I think in some societies there is a dependence on 'counselling' and therapy,



Tez i really respect you and i will admit not every case needs counselling and your point of view is valid ... but in many cases there is a root cause for low self esteem.  it could be poor parenting, poor teachers, sexual or physical abuse, ADD or some other underlying cause.  Oprah had low self esteem and weight issues.  she couldnt address the weight until she addressed the psychological issues of her sexual abuse.  in MA classes just treating the students with respect will not help in these cases.
again Tez i respect you so i also would expect more from you on these issues.  lets say you had a class of 100 girls.  how many of those girls may have been subject to sexual abuse.  they may suffer from low self esteem. you cant tell me that going to a MA class and the teacher talking nice to them and making them feel welcome is going to be adequate.
( i will give a disclaimer here that i am completely clueless when it comes to girls and this issue. my point of view is only based on boys)

my litmus test for MA instructors who promote their school with the marketing of "building self esteeem" is ..
Name 5 policies or curriculum strategies that you implemented to specifically address self confidence and esteem.
 i hold my self at a higher standard , and i would like to see others do the same on these issues.


----------



## oftheherd1

ravenofthewood said:


> Unfortunately, this same lack of confidence caused Johnny to quit sparring classes; he felt overwhelmed and like he was getting "beat up" all the time. But, yes, I can definitely see other areas where he has grown that I can point out to him. Thank you!
> 
> Johnny is eleven. One other thing I neglected to mention is that he was being bullied all last year and didn't tell anyone about it. He then reacted quite violently one day after the bully gave him a bloody nose and a black eye, and got in major trouble because of it. This year, however, he's in a different school, without that past history, and his teacher and the administration know what is going on.



What are the details of the fight he got in with the bully?  There may be something there that would help in helping Johnny.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> If you look here... Top Ten Facts about Low Self Esteem  it dispels some myths about self esteem, including the one about bullying coming from people with low self esteem. Simply telling people they are 'great' etc doesn't work, but how you treat people does.
> 
> _"Contrary to popular opinion, people with low self-esteem tend to be very sure of themselves. That's the problem. This manifests in their conviction that they are worthless or inadequate. As you will know if you have ever tried to argue with someone who puts themselves down continually, it is very hard to do! When someone with low self esteem starts to become less sure of their own opinion of themselves and therefore begins to assess counter evidence regarding their worthlessness, their self image begins to become more healthy. At first the "ugly" duckling was certain it was a failed duck but that misdirected certainty had to loosen before its true life direction could become clear._
> 
> _Good self esteem is actually a by-product of living in a healthy way. So rather than trying to raise it directly it's easier to focus elsewhere (such on what a person does) and let self esteem rise as a happy side effect of a change in living. "_
> 
> _"For anyone to be psychologically and physically healthy then core needs have to be fulfilled. Being clear about what you need and making efforts to meet those needs constructively means you'll naturally have better self esteem as a by-product of living well._
> 
> _This is useful list of basic human needs:_
> 
> 
> _ The need to give and receive attention_
> _ The need to look after your body._
> _ The need for meaning, purpose and goals._
> _ The need for a connection to something greater than ourselves_
> _ The need for creativity and stimulation_
> _ The need for intimacy and connection to others._
> _ The need for a sense of control_
> _ The need for a sense of status and recognition from others._
> _ The need for a sense of safety and security._
> _Of course, it is likely that at any one time, one or more of these may be slightly lacking in your life, without dire consequences. However, in the long-term, they must all be catered for one way or another."
> _
> As martial arts instructors we can certainly help with several of those.









Are we accepting as fact a top ten list from a random website trying to sell a product that references as source material the author's other websites?

Danger, Will Robinson.


----------



## Buka

There's always been little Johnnies in life, and there's always been bullies. Every situation is different, yet, they are all the same.

I was bullied a bit as a kid, not as much as some, but enough. The one advantage of being bullied is that it gives you a sort of natural radar about who bullies are, even if they're closet bullies. Going forward, that can come in handy.

I've worked in public schools, in youth detention facilities, in gyms, been teaching Martial Arts for ages, worked with a lot of kids, worked with a lot of bullies, too, both child bullies and adult ones, and both male bullies and female bullies. As I look at the clock on the corner of my laptop - I dealt with a bully less than twelve hours ago at work. Not an unruly person, an honest to God bully. There's bullies everywhere, all different kinds of bullies, you may even find them on forums sometimes. 

Maybe not all Martial Training deals with being bullied, maybe not all Martial training deals with self esteem and confidence, I've always been thankful that mine does. It may not be easy, but what in life is?
One of the things I always stayed aware of is making sure that when a child learns how to deal with bullies, he doesn't become one himself. Seen that happen, too.

I'm heading out now, travelling thousands of miles in a few days, got a lot of stuff to do. If this conversation is still going on, I'd like to get back to it later.

And, yes, there is no guarantee that Martial Arts classes will provide the ability to defend oneself - but nine out of ten ain't bad.


----------



## Buka

Steve said:


> Are we accepting as fact a top ten list from a random website trying to sell a product that references as source material the author's other websites?
> 
> Danger, Will Robinson.



"Danger, Will Robinson". - That was awesome.


----------



## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> Tez i really respect you and i will admit not every case needs counselling and your point of view is valid ... but in many cases there is a root cause for low self esteem. it could be poor parenting, poor teachers, sexual or physical abuse, ADD or some other underlying cause. Oprah had low self esteem and weight issues. she couldnt address the weight until she addressed the psychological issues of her sexual abuse. in MA classes just treating the students with respect will not help in these cases.



It's clear you haven't understood me. I will reiterate. Yes, in many cases  there is a root cause for the lack of self esteem but as martial arts instructors this is not our concern. This is because we do what we do, we don't do what is someone else's professional job. We _help _by doing our bit ie treating people with respect and the same as other students etc. As I said before and you have ignored, we do our job well and it's *part* of the solution it's not *the* solution. *People do not come to martial arts classes looking for a total reversal of a psychological lack of self esteem*. What they do though is send children who aren't as self confident as they could be and whose self esteem may be low but not have a deep psychological basis. They may also come to help themselves.

You read far too much into what I say believing something I haven't said. Martial arts can and does raise self esteem in the way I have described, it doesn't heal deep seated mental health problems though it can be a small part of the help.



hoshin1600 said:


> my litmus test for MA instructors who promote their school with the marketing of "building self esteeem" is ..
> Name 5 policies or curriculum strategies that you implemented to specifically address self confidence and esteem.



They don't need to have policies or strategies, they just need to do their job ie instructing well. It doesn't have to be martial arts, it can be any sport or activity.

The link I posted from Mark Tyrrell has a lot more links about self confidence and self esteem, he is a well known therapist who is a colleague of a good friend ( and former world kick boxing champion) of mine who also practices as a therapist and hypnotherapist. I've met him, he's knowledgeable and as importantly sensible.


----------



## hoshin1600

the issue of bullying (in my region) seems to be a hot topic and has been for some time.  being a liberal state (Massachusetts)  there is an ever growing political/ cultural distaste for violence and aggression.  aggression of and in any form is viewed as inappropriate  (unless your ANTIFA...._ooops was that outloud_)  infact there is an entire anti-male climate going on....(not making a political statement on this but its important to my point)  that being said MA schools cannot promote the self defense aspects that they once did.  no one here wants to hear that you can help little Johnny fight.  thats a taboo. aggression is BAD!!!   fighting is BAD,, even in self defense.   so from my perspective MA schools have turned to marketing the "confidence &self esteem"  its become an over used catch phrase.  it is the number one GO TO for the child market.
for me this is no different than marketing MA to adults saying "we teach self defense for (for women too)"   when in actually your curriculum shows otherwise.  in many cases they do live up to the claims but in a major way many do not.
 my over all issue is dont say you teach self defense if you are not teaching a curriculum that has that designed into it and dont say your school gives self esteem if your curriculum and policies dont have that designed into it.


----------



## hoshin1600

Tez3 said:


> You read far too much into what I say believing something I haven't said.


my apologies.  it wasnt my intention.



Tez3 said:


> I will reiterate. Yes, in many cases there is a root cause for the lack of self esteem but as martial arts instructors this is not our concern. This is because we do what we do, we don't do what is someone else's professional job. We _help _by doing our bit ie treating people with respect and the same as other students


YES,  full agreement.


----------



## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> (unless your ANTIFA...._ooops was that outloud_



You know that all that stands for is anti facist, which all sane people are. Politics aren't allowed on here which is where you seem to be coming from on the whole subject.  I don't know what your particular political climate is and it has frankly nothing to do with anything I've posted.

You seem to think self esteem is something you can hand to people or even take away form them rather than something that will grow in a place where it is encouraged which is what martial arts classes should be like. It doesn't need curriculums nor strategies to 'teach'  people how to have it, as I said it will grow given the right conditions, ie being treated fairly and respectfully, being able to progress in your chosen martial art ( or sport/activity) and to see progress. People with mental health problems can benefit from physical activity while being treated by professionals. We are martial arts instructors not mental health professionals so we do our bit as I said and leave the rest to the appropriate people. For smaller issues well run classes and proper instruction will certain have more benefits than just being able to kick or punch.


----------



## hoshin1600

Tez3 said:


> Politics aren't allowed on here which is where you seem to be coming from on the whole subject.


actually politics has nothing to do with anything i have said except current marketing strategies. 



hoshin1600 said:


> i am not really against your own words or post.





hoshin1600 said:


> to be clear i am not actually arguing with you, although it might appear that way. i was/ am more just using your links to juxtapost my own thoughts on the subject.





hoshin1600 said:


> Tez, again i am not in disagreement with you





hoshin1600 said:


> Tez i really respect you and i will admit not every case needs counselling and your point of view is valid





hoshin1600 said:


> my apologies. it wasnt my intention.



well at this point i am at a loss as to what to say.  in every post i made i tried to point out i do not disagree with you or you were not quoted or referenced at all in the post. but somehow you are still disagreeing with me on a multitude of points.



Tez3 said:


> I think you missed the points I was making





Tez3 said:


> I'm thinking you didn't read either all or you read the wrong bit.





Tez3 said:


> I think you need to take that up with @andyjeffries





Tez3 said:


> You seem to be focussed on something I'm not and determined to make an argument





Tez3 said:


> please address your comments to him.





Tez3 said:


> I think your pessimistic view is just that





Tez3 said:


> Speak for yourself.





Tez3 said:


> It's clear you haven't understood me.





Tez3 said:


> Politics aren't allowed on here which is where you seem to be coming from on the whole subject.



i seem to have disagreeable posts today...so with that...*if i continue posting on this subject ,, they are in no way a response to anything Tez has posted.*


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Speak for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Do we? Perhaps some you know do but most I know don't. They do actually know how to promote it because frankly it's not rocket science. We teach our own children after all, at least most of us do. *It's far simpler than you think.* It means treating people with respect, kindness and in a civilised manner. You accept people for who and what they are, you don't bully, hector or belittle them, you treat them as you would want to be treated. This goes  a long way to building up how people think about themselves. When someone sees others treating them with respect they first wonder why but often as other's opinions mean more than their own they will accept that if they are being treated that way they must be worth it ( the obverse is true, treat someone badly enough for long enough they will think they are worthless, often found in domestic abuse). Thinking they are worthwhile becomes their own thoughts after a while.
> 
> I think in some societies there is a dependence on 'counselling' and therapy, that you need to be a therapist to be able to make people feel better. for mental health issues one needs professional help but it doesn't mean that we have to stand back and think our contribution is pointless. People with 'low self esteem' often feel worthless, it's is very easy for us if we are decent people to treat them as they should be treated... as valued students worth teaching and being in class with. Raised self esteem comes from that, it's not chance and it's not quantifiable, we do know however it happens when we teach properly.
> 
> No, I've never had low self esteem nor lack of confidence, quite simply because of the way I was brought up.
> 
> Martial arts instructors don't have to do anything 'special' to raise self esteem, just what we should be doing anyway. *It's not a specialist subject, it's treating people properly*. For most people with low self esteem they can't be 'given' it but will discover it for themselves by being treated as a worthwhile human being and by succeeding in projects such as learning martial arts.



But no evidence that you are raising self esteem in any reasonable way?


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> But no evidence that you are raising self esteem in any reasonable way?



Well you can see for yourself how your students are feeling, they tend to stand up straighter, they speak more positively, feel less inhibited about coming out in front of the class to do a solo kata and they go on to teach lower grade students. I'm not in the business of providing proof for mental health issues, but I do notice when students gain more confidence and the subsequent rise in self esteem. It can be small things that take your notice, a better 'hairdo' and a touch of make up for the girls, more willingness to look the instructor in the eyes and actually smile as you throw them. It can be the lowering of tense shoulders and it can be volunteering to be uke or to compete. It's part of the whole. if you are observant and a sensitive instructor you can tell a lot when sparring and grappling with your students. A good instructor knows their students.


----------



## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> well at this point i am at a loss as to what to say. in every post i made i tried to point out i do not disagree with you or you were not quoted or referenced at all in the post. but somehow you are still disagreeing with me on a multitude of points



I'm disagreeing because well... I disagree with what you said, does it have to be aimed at me to disagree? If I disagree with something am I to ignore it unless the post is directed at me? If you are questioning something someone else wrote of course I'm going to direct you to them to clarify for you.



hoshin1600 said:


> actually politics has nothing to do with anything i have said except current marketing strategies



Your comments on so called 'antifa' and the anti men thing as well as the policies of your state. It will get the thread locked I'm afraid if we talk politics.

You seem to want to take the subject far deeper than I did. The OP wants advice on how to help a student in a martial arts class on what is basically a martial arts teaching problem which bullying has made a bit more complicated. The bullying itself is not the problem he wants or needs to address but that the student was let down by a previous instructor and has lost confidence in doing martial arts. He needs a martial arts answer to a martial arts problem.


----------



## ravenofthewood

Thank you, everyone, for your perspectives.  Tez3, thank you also for the links.

It would be ludicrous and bulky to try and respond to each of you individually, since so many posts have been written since I last had time to respond, so I am just going to respond generically.

Regarding the treatment of students and its effect on boosting self-esteem and confidence, many of the ways listed/linked to for making a child feel valued and respected are things I am already careful to do with my students. I will admit that I can become caught up in the need to get X, Y, and Z done before the end of class and give quick, general praise as a result, rather than targeted, specific praise, but it is something I am working on.  Sadly, it will take a while of my support to undo the damage done by the previous instructor. I am thinking of asking the dad if there were any incidents when Johnny came home taking about comments the instructor made to him, so I can know better the damage I'm dealing with. 

Regarding sparring, I am going to try to get him back into going to class. I know the dad will support this, but it will be difficult to convince Johnny. I'm looking at pairing him with hand-picked partners who I know will use control and not steamroll him. I'm also wondering if pre-teaching the drills that will be taught at sparring that week would help him be more confident. We can't do any contact sparring in regular classes, due to a lack of gear, etc., plus I'm not so sure I can trust that class to stick to no contact to light contact sparring.

I'm also going to pull out our body shield and either I or my assistant instructor will hold it so they can practice kicking against resistance. Actually, once everyone is used to the concept of the shield, I can have them hold it for each other, and that will deal with the issue of not being able to do contact sparring in class.

I appreciated the idea of the "stand your ground" drills. I think those will be very useful, and not just for Johnny. We do something sort of similar with a pool noodle, but there's a big difference in brain response between seeing a noodle coming and seeing a fist coming. 

In our adult classes, every once in a while we have a class that I call "realistic self defense day." Basically, we work in groups of 4+, and everyone takes a turn being the victim. The other students in the group grab the "victim" any way they like, as hard and realistically as they can, and the "victim" has to either subdue the attacker or get away. It's basically no holds barred self defense practice. It's a blast, and I know it's made me more confident in my own ability to defend myself. I would love to do this with Johnny and his class, but I feel like I'd end up with a class full of kids upset at each other. We adults are proud of the bruises we get (and inflict!) doing this drill...the kids, not so much.

Now to get all this done while still getting everyone ready for their next belt test.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ravenofthewood said:


> Regarding sparring, I am going to try to get him back into going to class. I know the dad will support this, but it will be difficult to convince Johnny. I'm looking at pairing him with hand-picked partners who I know will use control and not steamroll him. I'm also wondering if pre-teaching the drills that will be taught at sparring that week would help him be more confident. We can't do any contact sparring in regular classes, due to a lack of gear, etc., plus I'm not so sure I can trust that class to stick to no contact to light contact sparring.


This may be what you're suggesting with the drills, but if not I have an idea to help 'build him up' to sparring. Like you said, have specific drills, but rather than sparring, phrase it as having them practice those specific drills on a partner that is resisting, while the partner is trying the same. So, rather than him thinking of it as sparring, he thinks its just another drill. Then add more drills, and before he knows it, you're informing him that what he's been doing for the past X amount of days/weeks has actually been sparring.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ravenofthewood said:


> I'm looking for advice regarding a situation I'm dealing with with one of my students (we'll call him Johnny).
> 
> Johnny has been coming to taekwondo for about two years. He comes from a very difficult background (broken family, etc.), and is very emotionally sensitive and lacks confidence and self-esteem as a result. Last year, he was always talking about how he didn't have any friends at school. This year, he changed schools, and I just found out yesterday there has been a gang of about four boys bullying him and trying to beat him up. The situation has reached the point where he is scared to go to school. His dad says, while Johnny is telling authorities about what's happening, he doesn't have the self-confidence to do anything to try to protect himself. The school won't do anything about the situation and claims it can only give warnings right now.
> 
> Johnny needs more confidence, not so he can become a fighter, but so that he can at least protect himself against the bullies. Typically, learning a martial art gives a child the confidence they need to not be a victim. Unfortunately, the instructor who taught at this location before me (I have been at this location about 6 months) did nothing to build up his confidence, and, I suspect, a lot to tear it down. For most of his martial arts journey, therefore, taekwondo has not been a place to build up his confidence.
> 
> Basically, I'm looking for suggestions of things I can specifically do in class to help build up Johnny's confidence. Also, what do you tell your students to do when they're dealing with a gang of bullies, rather than a single bully?


WOW. I knew this day would come.


----------



## JowGaWolf

hoshin1600 said:


> The best you can do is make his classes fun so it becomes a santuary for him and his life to be a little less hellish.


either that or actually teach him functional self-defense.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ravenofthewood said:


> His dad was the one who brought the issue to my attention and asked if I could think of ways to help him develop confidence.


I hope you will stop talking about developing confidence by the time I get to the last page of this discussion.


----------



## JowGaWolf

lklawson said:


> "Zero Tolerance" policies have ensured that this no longer works. The victim is punished equally with the assailant.


This isn't true.  The victim usually gets beaten up in addition for the punishment for fighting.  If a child is going to be punished for fighting then he /she might as well win the fight.  No need to have a double loss.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Danny T said:


> Coping with bullying is much more than being able to fight back.


It's all about fighting back.  Sometimes it's a mental fight and sometimes it's a physical fight.  Coping with it means you are willing to take the bullying.  The goal is to stop the bullying and that requires that the child fights back either mentally or physically.  The child will either have to take charge with his words or take charge with his fists. 

The problem is that this child doesn't have any fighting ability.  Look at it like this.  How much confidence would you have in playing the piano in front of an audience when you know you don't have any ability to play the piano

How much confidence would you have to swim in the ocean if you didn't have any ability to swim?  You can have all of the confidence you want but without the skill and ability you will sink.

If you truly want to give someone confidence then you must first give them the skills and then train their ability.


----------



## hoshin1600

JowGaWolf said:


> either that or actually teach him functional self-defense.


But that kind of goes back to my point about regional attitudes. In some areas , some parents would be appalled at that idea. Now let's assume the dojo has a good working relationship with the local educational system.  When they find out you are advocating violence, ,,well that business partnership will be over.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> either that or actually teach him functional self-defense.


What do you mean by this?

Theres nothing that suggests what the kid has learnt is not legitimate self defense? As a couple of us have said, if he tries it out in a ring fight he can confirm his own ability, but I would assume the moves themselves have a legitimate self defense purpose.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> I hope you will stop talking about developing confidence by the time I get to the last page of this discussion



The obvious problem with coming late into a thread is that you have read the OP and jumped straight to your reply without reading any other posts. Perhaps you should look up 'over confidence'. 



JowGaWolf said:


> The problem is that this child doesn't have any fighting ability.



No that's not the problem at all, re-read the OP. The child has been let down by a previous martial arts instructor. The bullying issue is a side one which complicates the issue but isn't *the* issue.



JowGaWolf said:


> If you truly want to give someone confidence then you must first give them the skills and then train their ability.




As I said you haven't read any other posts and have come in thinking you have the answer, coming in with quite a belligerent attitude too.


----------



## Tez3

ravenofthewood said:


> Sadly, it will take a while of my support to undo the damage done by the previous instructor. I am thinking of asking the dad if there were any incidents when Johnny came home taking about comments the instructor made to him, so I can know better the damage I'm dealing with.



From everything you've said I think you have a good handle the issue and on your class. The lad is lucky to train under you! undoing damage done by another instructor who perhaps thought 'manning up' was the way to go with a bullied boy, takes time and patience but it sounds as if you are ahead of the game here. The ultimate aim could be to get the lad competing but throwing in the deep end doesn't help at the moment. 

I think some can't see beyond the child having been bullied but your problem, which you seem to understand very well, is actually undoing what the previous martial arts instructor has done. The confidence the child may have had has been knocked out of him, however I'm sure that you are on the right track to putting right what faulty martial arts did to him. 

*The arguments about whether bullied children should strike back or not aren't applicable here, the issue is that a child has been incorrectly taught by a martial arts instructor and now needs to be taught correctly. This is a martial arts problem not a bullying one. it's one we should all be concerned about.*


----------



## JowGaWolf

hoshin1600 said:


> But that kind of goes back to my point about regional attitudes. In some areas , some parents would be appalled at that idea. Now let's assume the dojo has a good working relationship with the local educational system.  When they find out you are advocating violence, ,,well that business partnership will be over.


 That sounds horrible to read.  The child is in violence even if he trains for it or not.  There's a difference between using violence as a last resort and going out to start fights. I'm not disagreeing with you because I know there are people out there that are like that.  

I guess I'm just too simple.  "The lion doesn't care if you are for or against violence.  It just sees you as prey."  This is how I see bullying.  Bullies won't stop until they realize that you are more than what they want to deal with.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> Frankly there's not much you can do against a gang you try and fight them you'll get your *** kicked badly. Best thing is to avoid or run away


With kids that's really not necessarily true. Often a "gang" of kids has one person who is the real bully, and others who back them up (give them the confidence of numbers). I was bullied a pretty good amount growing up, and it almost always involved groups of kids (at least 2, up to I think 5 or 6 in the largest group). In each case, when they got physical and I fought back, it all ended as soon as I had the upper hand with the one leading them. I'm not saying there's never going to be another kid stepping in, but I never experienced it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> This is just my personal opinion.
> There is nothing you can do.  So stop thinking that you can.  Self confidence is one of those BS marketing things that is used to get parents to think martial arts will be good for their kids and fork out their money every month.  I have been around a long time and not once have I ever met an instructor who had the faintest clue on how to deliver on that promise.
> The best you can do is make his classes fun so it becomes a santuary for him and his life to be a little less hellish.


There's solid psychological research on self confidence, including approaches that help build it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Johnny needs a ring fight.


Given his reaction to sparring, probably not just yet, DB.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> He has to do something important. Prove to himself he can.


True, but only if he actually does. If he doesn't (which seems the most likely outcome for a ring fight from someone who is afraid of sparring), then it makes things worse. Helping him find something that feels important (to him, doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it) he can do well is important.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Then he has suffered the worst of it and not died. Even that is a confidence boost.


Usually not so much for people with low self confidence. They tend to compound failures in their own mind, rather than recognizing survival.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Given his reaction to sparring, probably not just yet, DB.



That problem is the fault of the previous instructor. The current instructor, the OP I think will do a good job of rectifying the problems. Once that is sorted so a lot of other things will fall into place for the child.

When people are suggesting 'fights' it might be as well to remember the age of the child, eleven as well as the sad background he has.


----------



## Danny T

JowGaWolf said:


> It's all about fighting back.  Sometimes it's a mental fight and sometimes it's a physical fight.  Coping with it means you are willing to take the bullying.  The goal is to stop the bullying and that requires that the child fights back either mentally or physically.  The child will either have to take charge with his words or take charge with his fists.
> 
> The problem is that this child doesn't have any fighting ability.  Look at it like this.  How much confidence would you have in playing the piano in front of an audience when you know you don't have any ability to play the piano
> 
> How much confidence would you have to swim in the ocean if you didn't have any ability to swim?  You can have all of the confidence you want but without the skill and ability you will sink.
> 
> If you truly want to give someone confidence then you must first give them the skills and then train their ability.


Did you read everything I wrote there or just the first line?


----------



## JowGaWolf

kempodisciple said:


> What do you mean by this?
> 
> Theres nothing that suggests what the kid has learnt is not legitimate self defense? As a couple of us have said, if he tries it out in a ring fight he can confirm his own ability, but I would assume the moves themselves have a legitimate self defense purpose.


The child may have learned the techniques of self-defense but lacks the ability to apply them.  There is difference between knowing how to punch and kick correctly vs having the ability to do so to someone who wants to hit you back.   This is even more so the case with Martial Arts that don't require you to actually use the technique against a partner like BJJ and other grappling arts use. What I'm reading is that they child may have the skills for physical self-defense but lacks the ability to apply it.  

We all understand that self-defense consists of a non-violent component and a violent component.  When a person has the ability to do both then they will naturally get confidence in their ability to defend themselves.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> As I said you haven't read any other posts and have come in thinking you have the answer, coming in with quite a belligerent attitude too.


I finally caught up with the posts


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> The child may have learned the techniques of self-defense but lacks the ability to apply them. There is difference between knowing how to punch and kick correctly vs having the ability to do so to someone who wants to hit you back. This is even more so the case with Martial Arts that don't require you to actually use the technique against a partner like BJJ and other grappling arts use. What I'm reading is that they child may have the skills for physical self-defense but lacks the ability to apply it.



So it's the child's fault basically in your eyes. Throw him in a fight and he'll either get beaten up or learn to beat someone else up. Yep good advice right there. NOT.

I think we'll just leave the child in the hands of the OP who seems to be a very good instructor with all the right ideas.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> With kids that's really not necessarily true. Often a "gang" of kids has one person who is the real bully, and others who back them up (give them the confidence of numbers). I was bullied a pretty good amount growing up, and it almost always involved groups of kids (at least 2, up to I think 5 or 6 in the largest group). In each case, when they got physical and I fought back, it all ended as soon as I had the upper hand with the one leading them. I'm not saying there's never going to be another kid stepping in, but I never experienced it.


This is my experience to when I had to deal with a bully and his followers. For me I didn't have to fight more than one person.  I just had to spot the leader's weaknesses and put him into a position where he can either save face and walk away or lose what influence he had on those who followed him.  I was that kid who leaned how to manipulate a situation where if I thought I could turn a group of people on their leader then I would give it a try.  In my experience I gave just enough room for the bully to say that I wasn't work his time and to end the conflict with him calling me weak.  I was fine with that as long has he knew that I wasn't going to back down. 

It's funny that you mentioned this because it works that way in nature too.  Take out the alpha male and the rest are easier to deal with.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Danny T said:


> Did you read everything I wrote there or just the first line?


I read everything and commented on that portion of your statement.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> So it's the child's fault basically in your eyes. Throw him in a fight and he'll either get beaten up or learn to beat someone else up. Yep good advice right there. NOT.
> 
> I think we'll just leave the child in the hands of the OP who seems to be a very good instructor with all the right ideas.


No it's not the child's fault. It's just that you can't expect someone to have confidence in something when they don't have or trust their ability.  I think throwing him into a fight would be the worst thing to do.  My son had a lot of self-defense talk way before he actually took martial arts.  I think I started explaining human behavior (kids behavior) maybe 3 or 4 years before he even threw a punch.  I was concerned about him being picked on in school so I would talk to him about the things that kids sometimes do.

By the time he had his first sparring match he already had a good idea of strategy.  He already knew to look for weaknesses and openings, not just physically but mentally as well.  My son is a shy kid, but he'll sit back and watch and listen and take in his surroundings.  I'm not worried about him being shy because he'll most likely grow out it like I grew out of mine.  As for the other kids in my school I take them through a similar process.  I explain to them some common weaknesses that bullies have.  I also talk to them about the importance in believing in themselves.  I have personally sparred with all of the children because I think it's good for them.  It helps them build a certain level of comfort in their ability.  It's no different than a son wrestling with his father as a kid.  It gives the child the ability to safely test their physical limits and it gives them a chance to experience someone who is physically stronger than they are without having that fear that normally comes with sparring against peers.  For them it's just play time, but in reality they are getting more out of it than playing.

My rule for kids sparring is the same as the rule for adult sparring.  You can't mix it up with others until you learn how to use basic defensive techniques to minimize the damage.

As for the child learning how to apply the technique.  That's a partnership experience between the instructor and the student.  Part of it is on the student the other part is on the instructor.  It's not something anyone can do on their own.  The instructor has to provide correct instruction.  The student must be willing to learn how use the techniques.  It's up to the instructor to provide the opportunity to learn how to apply self-defense.  It is up to the student to go through the learning process that's required to be able to apply the techniques.


----------



## hoshin1600

gpseymour said:


> There's solid psychological research on self confidence, including approaches that help build it.


I agree. But from my experience many instructors never look into that and leave it up to chance and luck.  I prefer to do things by design.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> from the posted link....
> _"The primary way it  _(martial arts) _helps is that regularly practicing the martial arts will give them the self-confidence to not need it. Martial artists feel an inner confidence from knowing that they've spent many hours practicing each move, that it's powerful and swift. There may be better techniques (there's always more to learn, even at my current Taekwondo 7th Dan level) but there comes a point where you know enough to think "I may get hurt, but I KNOW they'll get hurt if they try it!".
> 
> And having that inward self-confidence projects outwards. The timid/shy persona that bullies are attracted to like sharks sensing blood in the water gradually fades away."
> _
> from my own experience i think this is misunderstood.  again self image problems take a really long time to adjust and so does learning traditional martial arts, so by the time one gains profiency and confidence the bulling stopped long ago.  also *we all know there is no guarantee that martial arts classes will provide the ability to defend ones self.*
> 
> so what happens when Johnny starts taking karate lessons and the bully finds out and makes a mockery about it and still beats up Johnny even worse because Johnny sucks at karate..???? how does Johnny feel then?


My own experience closely mirrors what the post says. I gained confidence from martial arts, actually had to use them only once during that time - the confidence (my reaction) ended most of the bullying (the one use was probably directly responsible for that group stopping).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> Name 5 policies or curriculum strategies that you implemented to specifically address self confidence and esteem.


Does it have to be specifically implemented to address that, or can it be something they would have done anyway, and also promotes improvement of self confidence?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Are we accepting as fact a top ten list from a random website trying to sell a product that references as source material the author's other websites?
> 
> Danger, Will Robinson.


Much of what he says is in line with what I have found from studies (he refers to some of the peer-reviewed research, though I didn't look to see if he cites any specifically).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> That problem is the fault of the previous instructor. The current instructor, the OP I think will do a good job of rectifying the problems. Once that is sorted so a lot of other things will fall into place for the child.
> 
> When people are suggesting 'fights' it might be as well to remember the age of the child, eleven as well as the sad background he has.


It's quite possible that's a result of previous instruction. It might also be something akin to PTSD (similar process, probably not quite the same result), where the situation feels too much like something that happened when he was bullied.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> you can't expect someone to have confidence in something when they don't have or trust their ability


I don't think this says what you mean it to, JGW - it sounds circular. "You can't expect someone to have confidence in something when they don't trust their ability." The problem for folks with low self-esteem is that they rarely trust their ability (except their ability to judge themselves critically).


----------



## Tarrycat

Confidence can have a lot of power over thoughts. I don't believe it's a marketing strategy at all.



To be quite honest, my martial arts & my horse riding has helped a lot with my confidence. I never had confidence problems before, however, it certainly did aid in building it further along the way.



It's true that if you get more competent in something, you feel better about yourself, because you've fulfilled one of your needs as as a martial artist, you've achieved a specific goal (this will be categorised in the "self-actualization" needs, in the Maslow's hierachy of needs model).



In my own experience, competence is the driver of confidence. The better you become at something, the better you see yourself in your own eyes - you realise that you are actually CAPABLE of doing anything. You start to see yourself in a unique light, instead of comparing yourself to other people.



As this boy grows & becomes better at what he's doing in your classes, he will grow in his confidence daily. It IS a process though..



I'd say that perhaps one of the first things he should do is make some friends within the Taekwondo community, if he can. As another person on here said, his Taekwondo classes should be his break so-to-say from reality.



This will reassure him that there are people out there who care about him & want to see him succeed - a strong support system is necessary for a child in this situation. It's necessary for every individual, but more so in his case.



I would also start with self-defense drills so that he at least can be confident in defending himself if ever someone intends to hurt him in any way - I'm not certain how this works in Taekwondo & how broad the curriculum is surrounding self-defense in particular (I was always under the impression that a lot of the kata in Taekwondo is mostly designed for sport, but please enlighten me if I am wrong), but if he can do with more knowledge, perhaps pair him up with someone who specialises in self-defense tactics. Knowing how to defend himself, I think, is top priority.



As soon as he's familiar with these techniques & knows how to do them competently, you can start to introduce him to the rest of the techniques. By then, he will already feel better about himself, because he then knows how to defend himself.



As far as addressing teachers, I'm not exactly certain. Teachers, I have at times observed (in other countries), sometimes fail to actually LISTEN to the child's concerns in a lot of ways, they overlook it conveniently. The only advice that I can think of is if the boy's father attempts to arrange a serious meeting with the principal & the boy's teachers... Also, perhaps they can then in this meeting, talk about giving some of the seniors some authority to observe their school's environment for bullies, so that they can stop fights among students, & then address this to their teachers (as a different control strategy). Obviously some form of positive reinforcement is necessary in order to motivate the seniors to do something like this. Every senior then deserves an honorary mention, & a certificate (or any form of incentive) as a symbol of bravery.



Every school needs an anti-bully policy as part of their system.



The problem is, kids want to feel cool & in control, they think that the only way to feel like this, is by bullying others. They need to be taught that helping or serving others, & adding value to their lives, is what truly makes you a powerful being. Then again, you will always have an issue with bullies, because not everyone thinks alike, or has a similar home life. Usually bullies are children with problems too. I hope the school has a psychiatrist for the children as part of their policy? I know ours did, we never had any serious problems with bullying; bullies were dealt with immediately & called into the principal's office.



Good luck..*


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> It's just that you can't expect someone to have confidence in something when they don't have or trust their ability.



I'm thinking you really didn't read what was written by the OP or myself. Why would you think we are expecting a child to have confidence when his experiences are with a poor instructor, bullying and a difficult home life. The one part that can be sorted more easily is the poor martial arts instruction he had before, that's our professional expertise ( I hope!). Given someone a good experience in class, teaching well and with respect are something a good instructor can do to help mend the bit that was damaged by poor instruction. It will go  towards building confidence in class and with martial arts which in turn will help with the confidence building in every day life. 



JowGaWolf said:


> That's a partnership experience between the instructor and the student. Part of it is on the student the other part is on the instructor. It's not something anyone can do on their own. The instructor has to provide correct instruction.



The problem was the previous instructor obviously wasn't giving proper instruction hence the reluctance to spar etc. I'm confident that the child is at the start of a new journey in martial arts now though.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> The obvious problem with coming late into a thread is that you have read the OP and jumped straight to your reply without reading any other posts. Perhaps you should look up 'over confidence'.
> 
> 
> 
> No that's not the problem at all, re-read the OP. The child has been let down by a previous martial arts instructor. The bullying issue is a side one which complicates the issue but isn't *the* issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said you haven't read any other posts and have come in thinking you have the answer, coming in with quite a belligerent attitude too.


 
Ohhh, I see now.

It's embedded within the child's memory & his senses, & he now carries the feelings, as well as the memories shared with his previous instructor on to the next...

Perhaps then work with the boy in stages, so as to gain his trust & to work with him as more of a mentor. It seems from the situation that it's going to be a timely process.

That's all I can think of, really...

I didn't actually read through the thread, so I may have missed some important details.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Much of what he says is in line with what I have found from studies (he refers to some of the peer-reviewed research, though I didn't look to see if he cites any specifically).


I didn’t see any citations other than to his other website.  And I’m leery of any sales site masquerading a science by default.  

Accepting this kind of stuff without question is how myths are born.   For example, that you need to sear a steak to lock in the juices.  Or that vaccines cause autism.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I don't think this says what you mean it to, JGW - it sounds circular. "You can't expect someone to have confidence in something when they don't trust their ability." The problem for folks with low self-esteem is that they rarely trust their ability (except their ability to judge themselves critically).


I'll try again.   

There are 2 types of confidence

Confidence from thinking that you can do something 

Confidence in knowing that you can do something. 
We often grow the first regardless if a child actually has the ability.  While this works for a majority of the time.  It's not a good fit for self-defense because sometimes you have to fight no matter if you want to or not.  How well a person fights back is highly dependent on #2.  It doesn't matter if it's non-physical or physical violence.  If the child does not have the ability to handle the situation then it doesn't matter how much confidence he has, he will still fail because he is only able to do so much.

I think low self-esteem has more to do with the value one sees within himself / herself.  It has very little to do with confidence.  I see confidence more about how we feel about our capabilities and abilities. Self-esteem is the root of how we see ourselves and helps to determine what we can and cannot do.

In the black American community, it's common to hear mothers tell their children 3 things.   Don't let anyone call you stupid. Don't let anyone disrespect you.  If someone hits you then hit them back.  I don't know how it is in other cultures, but it was very common when I was a kid.  These things were taught to children to help them know they were of value no matter what others say about them.   Self-love goes a long way.  

Historical Reference: at 3:10 "to develop within ourselves a deep sense of somebodiness. Don't let anyone make you feel that you are nobody. Because the minute someone feels that way, he is incapable of rising to his full maturity as a person.."  





Even though that part of the speech was directed to black Americans it applies to humans in general. This is a self-affirmation





If the child is having self-esteem problems, then that needs to be addressed first before trying to tackle self-defense.  In my opinion self-esteem is more important than confidence.  Self-esteem will help a person stand strong even when there is no confidence.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll try again.
> 
> There are 2 types of confidence
> 
> Confidence from thinking that you can do something
> 
> Confidence in knowing that you can do something.
> We often grow the first regardless if a child actually has the ability.  While this works for a majority of the time.  It's not a good fit for self-defense because sometimes you have to fight no matter if you want to or not.  How well a person fights back is highly dependent on #2.  It doesn't matter if it's non-physical or physical violence.  If the child does not have the ability to handle the situation then it doesn't matter how much confidence he has, he will still fail because he is only able to do so much.
> 
> I think low self-esteem has more to do with the value one sees within himself / herself.  It has very little to do with confidence.  I see confidence more about how we feel about our capabilities and abilities. Self-esteem is the root of how we see ourselves and helps to determine what we can and cannot do.
> 
> In the black American community, it's common to hear mothers tell their children 3 things.   Don't let anyone call you stupid. Don't let anyone disrespect you.  If someone hits you then hit them back.  I don't know how it is in other cultures, but it was very common when I was a kid.  These things were taught to children to help them know they were of value no matter what others say about them.   Self-love goes a long way.
> 
> Historical Reference: at 3:10 "to develop within ourselves a deep sense of somebodiness. Don't let anyone make you feel that you are nobody. Because the minute someone feels that way, he is incapable of rising to his full maturity as a person.."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even though that part of the speech was directed to black Americans it applies to humans in general. This is a self-affirmation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the child is having self-esteem problems, then that needs to be addressed first before trying to tackle self-defense.  In my opinion self-esteem is more important than confidence.  Self-esteem will help a person stand strong even when there is no confidence.


I agree with the basic premise. Part of the issue for (at least some) people with low self-esteem is that they don't have confidence even where there is competence. There is a psychological process at play that exaggerates failures, overestimates external criticism, and fails to acknowledge success.

Now, that's not to say that what you are suggesting is ineffective. We just have to be aware that competence _alone_ doesn't breed confidence in that given area. Often, having a specific goal to reach to, then working a plan to reach it, has a specific effect. I suspect it's just harder to downplay or ignore that success, because there's a definite before/after measurement. It's not a magic pill, obviously (they won't suddenly be confident), but it is part of the process. Appropriate acknowledgement from outside sources can help, too, though (as I think one of the links someone posted earlier said), overdone or overly general praise can actually have a negative effect.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Why would you think we are expecting a child to have confidence when his experiences are with a poor instructor, bullying and a difficult home life. The one part that can be sorted more easily is the poor martial arts instruction he had before, that's our professional expertise ( I hope!).


Both can be done at the same time and I'm saying this from experience of having to do it.

Youth development centers in the U.S. have been addressing those issues for the longest.  The centers serve as a second family that they can visit when things at home get tough.  The staff usually serves in a big brother /sister or mother / father capacity in terms that child's development. They deal with bullying and home life all the time.  If you can be a "family member" for a child then you can improve that child's life greatly.  People in those roles actually have a better opportunity than the actual parents because there are things that kids aren't comfortable talking about with their parents.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> If the child is having self-esteem problems, then that needs to be addressed first before trying to tackle self-defense. In my opinion self-esteem is more important than confidence. Self-esteem will help a person stand strong even when there is no confidence.



No, you are reading this the wrong way round. The problems come from bullying, a bad family background and a poor martial arts instructor. The OP has asked for advice on how to do what he can *in his class* to help this child. There is nothing he can do about helping a child with a lack of self esteem outside his class so your points whether valid or not don't apply. A martial arts instructor does what they can in their class, they are not responsible for any more than that. so, building confidence in the class, building the student's confidence in the instructor as well as the techniques is the instructor's goal here. 

I disagree that self esteem gets you through a situation because you need confidence in yourself to carry things through. It doesn't actually matter what you think about yourself as long as you have confidence in yourself. thinking you are wonderful isn't going to help you a lot in any situation.

There is only so much an instructor can do in the couple of hours ( if that) a week one sees a child so instructing well, taking small steps with less confident students, building up confidence in the techniques in small increments is the way to go. It sounds grand all the psychology about self esteem etc but we can only do what we can and as long as e do it well we are doing our bit to help in what is a large problem.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> Youth development centers in the U.S. have been addressing those issues for the longest.



Are you saying no other country can deal with these problems?



JowGaWolf said:


> If you can be a "family member" for a child then you can improve that child's life greatly. People in those roles actually have a better opportunity than the actual parents because there are things that kids aren't comfortable talking about with their parents.



This is far from what the OP asked though, you are widening the discussion so much it's not giving the advice he wanted. We are martial arts instructors who have a student for an hour or two a week not therapists. As I keep saying we do the best job at what we do, we teach sympathetically and with respect, we bear in mind the child's problems and hopefully we contribute to his recovery and ultimate well being.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> Part of the issue for (at least some) people with low self-esteem is that they don't have confidence even where there is competence.


That's because the self-esteem has to be addressed first. 
This is the same thing that I was trying to get across when I said not trusting in one's own ability.



gpseymour said:


> We just have to be aware that competence _alone_ doesn't breed confidence in that given area.


 In situations like this then it's not an issue about competence or confidence.  It's an issue about self-esteem and that has to always be addressed first.   So the question is: Does the child have low self-esteem? If he does, then the effort should focus on improving and solidifying his self-esteem / self-value /self-worth.   Drop the focus on the confidence and address the self-esteem issue first.  "I AM SOMEBODY."  it's a start.  Shape his mind.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> In situations like this then it's not an issue about competence or confidence. It's an issue about self-esteem and that has to always be addressed first. So the question is: Does the child have low self-esteem? If he does, then the effort should focus on improving and solidifying his self-esteem / self-value /self-worth. Drop the focus on the confidence and address the self-esteem issue first. "I AM SOMEBODY." it's a start. Shape his mind



That is a job for a professional therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist plus his family. The OP was asking what he can do in his martial arts class.
It's an issue about bullying, family problems and an incompetent previous instructor not specifically low self esteem.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Are you saying no other country can deal with these problems?


Nothing in his comment said anything about other countries. He spoke of a specific institution that exists in the US, because that's the system he knows of.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> There is nothing he can do about helping a child with a lack of self esteem outside his class


We used to do field trips, movie nights, board games, card games, video games, and study groups.  Everything didn't have to be about having a formal youth development experience.  We often just did normal things.  The main Jow Ga school up north does the same thing even though they aren't a youth development center.  They meet up outside of class times and do things together either at the school or they meet up at places like Laser tag.  If the parent's can't take them but they want the child to go, then someone picks that child up. This allows the child to be around peers who care and respect him.  It helps to set expectation on his value.

If the OP doesn't have the capabilities to do this then he should really direct him to a group that can provide this.



Tez3 said:


> A martial arts instructor does what they can in their class, they are not responsible for any more than that.


Jow Ga instructors are different.  If you are part of our school then you are part of our family and our responsibility doesn't stop at just the class.  Once you are a part of our school you become a reflection on our school.  If you care about someone's well being then you help when you can and sometimes that means outside of class.  If all you see is a paying student then most likely you won't take any additional steps beyond the class.  Either way is fine, neither right or wrong.  But I can show you instructors who care and help their students beyond martial arts class.  



Tez3 said:


> t doesn't actually matter what you think about yourself as long as you have confidence in yourself. thinking you are wonderful isn't going to help you a lot in any situation.


It always matters what you think of yourself.  You should always love who you are as a person and stand firm to that.  You should always see value in your existence and that you should be respected.  Self-esteem isn't about telling yourself or thinking you are wonderful.  It's about you being of value in society, that you have a place, and right to be.  It's about accepting who you are as a person along with your flaws and still believe that you are important. That you are of value in society.  It's about you not only understanding that it's your right to be respected, but to also demand that you be respected as a human and as of value. It's the only thing that keeps you from feeling like trash, and unwanted.



Tez3 said:


> There is only so much an instructor can do in the couple of hours ( if that) a week one sees a child so instructing well, taking small steps with less confident students, building up confidence in the techniques in small increments is the way to go. It sounds grand all the psychology about self esteem etc but we can only do what we can and as long as e do it well we are doing our bit to help in what is a large problem.


Improving self-esteem is not a fast process.  It's a much longer process than learning a technique and it demands consistency.  If a brick falls from the wall of your self-esteem, then you must repair it.  There are no big and fast steps in developing self-esteem.



Tez3 said:


> Are you saying no other country can deal with these problems?


The reason I said the U.S. is because I don't know what other youth development centers in other countries do.  So I only speak on what I know and that's would be how youth development centers run in the U.S.   Why would I speak about youth development centers in other countries when I'm not familiar with what they do or the approaches they take with the development of the youth.



Tez3 said:


> We are martial arts instructors who have a student for an hour or two a week not therapists.


 You don't have to be a therapist to deal with issues like this.  You only have to understand where your can help and where your limits are.  If there is a limit then get someone to fill in that gap.  Have a guest speaker come in to do what you aren't able to do or to provide the knowledge skill sets to deal with the issue.  Every problem doesn't have to be solved or even addressed directly by the instructor.

So if you don't can the capabilities to address this issue then simply partner with an organization that does.  Have that person come and talk to the kids once a month.  Have guest speakers who are popular talk about what it was like when they had to deal with bullies when they were kids.  Have someone from the youth development field to sit in and help balance the conversation.  You don't always have to try to solve a problem by yourself.  Especially when it comes to kids.  Hence the saying "It takes a village to raise a child"


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> That is a job for a professional therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist plus his family. The OP was asking what he can do in his martial arts class.
> It's an issue about bullying, family problems and an incompetent previous instructor not specifically low self esteem.


 Not everything takes a PhD to make a difference.


You can do something about bullying, but only if he has good self-esteem.

You can't do anything about family problems except provide a place where he can have a break from the family by being a place where he can build quality bonds with other people with the hopes that some of these people will be like family.  And as an Instructor take advantage of teachable moments Reference:

If he's no longer with an incompetent instructor then that issue is no longer an issue.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> Not everything takes a PhD to make a difference.
> 
> 
> You can do something about bullying, but only if he has good self-esteem.
> 
> You can't do anything about family problems except provide a place where he can have a break from the family by being a place where he can build quality bonds with other people with the hopes that some of these people will be like family.  And as an Instructor take advantage of teachable moments Reference:
> 
> If he's no longer with an incompetent instructor then that issue is no longer an issue.



PhD? Hardly. 

I think a good right hook might do better than 'good self esteem'. Self esteem doesn't stop people bullying you, it may stop it affecting you so much but people can still bully you.

The point about this thread is that it's about martial arts, no more, no less. It's not a martial arts instructor's job to fix self esteem or confidence, it's our job to teach good martial arts in a positive and competent way. The side effects of that are increased confidence and self esteem somewhat, for some it will be more than others. The rest is for those outside to fix. Your insouciance in saying that if he's no longer with the bad instructor there's no issue amazes me, as there clearly will be issues arising from bad teaching.   



JowGaWolf said:


> We used to do field trips, movie nights, board games, card games, video games, and study groups



That's fine for you but we are talking about everyday martial arts classes who don't impinge on people's private lives as much as your group seems to. Most martial schools/clubs stay withing their area of expertise...martial arts.



JowGaWolf said:


> If the OP doesn't have the capabilities to do this then he should really direct him to a group that can provide this.




Not his responsibilities, that's for the family to do. He is the child's martial arts instructor not his guardian. You could find families finding exception to this sort of interference as they would see it. People send their children to a class to learn martial arts, not be counselled etc.




JowGaWolf said:


> Improving self-esteem is not a fast process. It's a much longer process than learning a technique and it demands consistency. If a brick falls from the wall of your self-esteem, then you must repair it. There are no big and fast steps in developing self-esteem



Why are you addressing this to me ie 'you'. I'm find, I have an inordinate amount of self esteem and more than my fair share of confidence. I've never had a brick fall out of my self esteem. I think you seem to misunderstand a martial arts instructors role in the process, it's important but not the focus of any process.



JowGaWolf said:


> So if you don't can the capabilities to address this issue then simply partner with an organization that does. Have that person come and talk to the kids once a month. Have guest speakers who are popular talk about what it was like when they had to deal with bullies when they were kids. Have someone from the youth development field to sit in and help balance the conversation. You don't always have to try to solve a problem by yourself. Especially when it comes to kids. Hence the saying "It takes a village to raise a child"



Parents don't pay a martial arts class for this and I wouldn't foist it on children who come to me to learn martial arts. It would be extremely arrogant to assume the children you teach are in need of all of this and that the parents send their children to have this.  The children are there to learn martial arts, your part is to teach them and do it well treating them with respect and patience. No one is trying to sort this by themselves, I'm assuming you haven't read very much of this thread because you've gone down a track no one else is and are lecturing us for whatever reason.


----------



## ravenofthewood

gpseymour said:


> It's quite possible that's a result of previous instruction. It might also be something akin to PTSD (similar process, probably not quite the same result), where the situation feels too much like something that happened when he was bullied.



Thank you for this comment; I wouldn't be surprised if this actually was part of the issue. Being an HSP myself, and able to identify with that aspect of Johnny's situation, I feel rather silly that I didn't think of this myself.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> PhD? Hardly.
> 
> I think a good right hook might do better than 'good self esteem'. Self esteem doesn't stop people bullying you, it may stop it affecting you so much but people can still bully you.
> 
> The point about this thread is that it's about martial arts, no more, no less. It's not a martial arts instructor's job to fix self esteem or confidence, it's our job to teach good martial arts in a positive and competent way. The side effects of that are increased confidence and self esteem somewhat, for some it will be more than others. The rest is for those outside to fix. Your insouciance in saying that if he's no longer with the bad instructor there's no issue amazes me, as there clearly will be issues arising from bad teaching.
> 
> 
> 
> That's fine for you but we are talking about everyday martial arts classes who don't impinge on people's private lives as much as your group seems to. Most martial schools/clubs stay withing their area of expertise...martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not his responsibilities, that's for the family to do. He is the child's martial arts instructor not his guardian. You could find families finding exception to this sort of interference as they would see it. People send their children to a class to learn martial arts, not be counselled etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you addressing this to me ie 'you'. I'm find, I have an inordinate amount of self esteem and more than my fair share of confidence. I've never had a brick fall out of my self esteem. I think you seem to misunderstand a martial arts instructors role in the process, it's important but not the focus of any process.
> 
> 
> 
> Parents don't pay a martial arts class for this and I wouldn't foist it on children who come to me to learn martial arts. It would be extremely arrogant to assume the children you teach are in need of all of this and that the parents send their children to have this.  The children are there to learn martial arts, your part is to teach them and do it well treating them with respect and patience. No one is trying to sort this by themselves, I'm assuming you haven't read very much of this thread because you've gone down a track no one else is and are lecturing us for whatever reason.


Tez, in fairness, some parents are looking for schools that do exactly this sort of thing. It is something many martial arts schools advertise (as someone mentioned earlier), and they advertise it because parents like it. And while some parents do not want a school that gets more involved, there are many who like that personal involvement from martial arts instructors, sports coaches, clergy, school counselors, and others where it isn't strictly "their job". My only admonition is that someone advertising such should make an effort (backed by some learned knowledge) to actually deliver.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ravenofthewood said:


> Thank you for this comment; I wouldn't be surprised if this actually was part of the issue. Being an HSP myself, and able to identify with that aspect of Johnny's situation, I feel rather silly that I didn't think of this myself.


If that is the case, what may help is finding ways to make sparring activities (and the drills you use to get closer to it) more fun (or even silly, if that suits his personality) for Johnny.


----------



## ravenofthewood

Tarrycat said:


> I'd say that perhaps one of the first things he should do is make some friends within the Taekwondo community, if he can. As another person on here said, his Taekwondo classes should be his break so-to-say from reality.
> 
> This will reassure him that there are people out there who care about him & want to see him succeed - a strong support system is necessary for a child in this situation. It's necessary for every individual, but more so in his case.



Exactly. We have really been emphasizing this in his class lately--for everyone's benefit. His classmates are the only ones who trained extensively with the previous instructor, my lower belts did not, so we have been working on them learning my expectations and that I will not tolerate behaviors which were allowed in the past. He gets along well with those who have been training with him all the way through, but we recently gained two transfer students who have made life more interesting. 





Tarrycat said:


> I would also start with self-defense drills so that he at least can be confident in defending himself if ever someone intends to hurt him in any way - I'm not certain how this works in Taekwondo & how broad the curriculum is surrounding self-defense in particular (I was always under the impression that a lot of the kata in Taekwondo is mostly designed for sport, but please enlighten me if I am wrong), but if he can do with more knowledge, perhaps pair him up with someone who specialises in self-defense tactics. Knowing how to defend himself, I think, is top priority.



Self defense is a separate, extremely integral part of our curriculum. Our poomse (kata) do have self defense applications, such as teaching awareness and combinations of moves which are useful in general self defense situations, but we do not have bunkai (is that the correct term?). I do often point out to students how different moves in poomse can be applied to self defense situations, however.


----------



## drop bear

ravenofthewood said:


> Exactly. We have really been emphasizing this in his class lately--for everyone's benefit. His classmates are the only ones who trained extensively with the previous instructor, my lower belts did not, so we have been working on them learning my expectations and that I will not tolerate behaviors which were allowed in the past. He gets along well with those who have been training with him all the way through, but we recently gained two transfer students who have made life more interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Self defense is a separate, extremely integral part of our curriculum. Our poomse (kata) do have self defense applications, such as teaching awareness and combinations of moves which are useful in general self defense situations, but we do not have bunkai (is that the correct term?). I do often point out to students how different moves in poomse can be applied to self defense situations, however.



 A friday night social barbecue works really well to turn students in to friends.


----------



## ravenofthewood

JowGaWolf said:


> We used to do field trips, movie nights, board games, card games, video games, and study groups.  Everything didn't have to be about having a formal youth development experience.  We often just did normal things.  The main Jow Ga school up north does the same thing even though they aren't a youth development center.  They meet up outside of class times and do things together either at the school or they meet up at places like Laser tag.  If the parent's can't take them but they want the child to go, then someone picks that child up. This allows the child to be around peers who care and respect him.  It helps to set expectation on his value.
> 
> If the OP doesn't have the capabilities to do this then he should really direct him to a group that can provide this.
> 
> Jow Ga instructors are different.  If you are part of our school then you are part of our family and our responsibility doesn't stop at just the class.  Once you are a part of our school you become a reflection on our school.  If you care about someone's well being then you help when you can and sometimes that means outside of class.  If all you see is a paying student then most likely you won't take any additional steps beyond the class.  Either way is fine, neither right or wrong.  But I can show you instructors who care and help their students beyond martial arts class.



That is really neat that you are able to do that with your students. We have various activities throughout the year (parades, Christmas party, Pro-D day camps, etc.), but not as organized as that sounds.

Unfortunately, I don't have the resources or the authority to implement and run something like that. I certainly care for my students and don't merely see them as dollar signs. I would love to be more involved with them, but I am only able to participate in their lives as much as I am invited to do so by the parents. It is their job to raise their children, not mine.  I just have to do the absolute best I can for each child in the time I have them.


----------



## ravenofthewood

kempodisciple said:


> This may be what you're suggesting with the drills, but if not I have an idea to help 'build him up' to sparring. Like you said, have specific drills, but rather than sparring, phrase it as having them practice those specific drills on a partner that is resisting, while the partner is trying the same. So, rather than him thinking of it as sparring, he thinks its just another drill. Then add more drills, and before he knows it, you're informing him that what he's been doing for the past X amount of days/weeks has actually been sparring.



Thank you for your suggestion! He has no issue with the sparring drills themselves; it's just the full, sparring-oriented class he objects to.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ravenofthewood said:


> Thank you for your suggestion! He has no issue with the sparring drills themselves; it's just the full, sparring-oriented class he objects to.


If that's the case, getting him more used to sparring should go a long way toward him being ready to go back to that class. Just make sure he's in a position to do well in it when you suggest he goes back. One thing that might help is to occasionally run a small portion of the regular class (when he's in it) very much like the sparring class. Get him used to the environment he'll return to there.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ravenofthewood said:


> It is their job to raise their children, not mine.


I have heard this all through my adult life and people wonder why kids are so screwed up these days.  I'm not saying that this reflects on you, because I don't know you as a person.  I'm just pointing out how often I've heard it and the changes that has occurred to youth during the same time this statement became popular.

I personally can't understand it because I grew up in a neighborhood where everyone looked out for each other and the kids of the neighborhood.  It was a community and that's what a community does.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Nothing in his comment said anything about other countries. He spoke of a specific institution that exists in the US, because that's the system he knows of.



It didn't sound like that however, as part of his long lecture it sounded very much like he was saying 'only in the USA'.



You have martial arts schools that are daycare centres, something that wouldn't be allowed here as well as having far more school input into children's lives than would happen outside the US. I was watching the news here on the BBC when they were talking about the Las Vegas shooter and the US etc. A professor said that we don't understand that the USA is a very different country from the UK, we think we because we speak English and watch American programmes we do things the same but we are actually very different. One of those differences is the way we view bringing up children especially in view of mental health. We would not expect sports instructors, churches or even teachers to be involved in our children's lives to the extent that Americans seem to. We don't have summer camps and we wouldn't expect counsellors etc to come to a martial arts class etc in the way mentioned.



ravenofthewood said:


> but I am only able to participate in their lives as much as I am invited to do so by the parents. It is their job to raise their children, not mine




This is exactly how we'd expect it to be here. People would be horrified to find others interfering in their children's lives to the extent mentioned before.



JowGaWolf said:


> I have heard this all through my adult life and people wonder why kids are so screwed up these days. I'm not saying that this reflects on you, because I don't know you as a person. I'm just pointing out how often I've heard it and the changes that has occurred to youth during the same time this statement became popular.




The vast majority of children are NOT screwed up, the vast majority lead perfectly normal lives doing fantastic things in sports, activities, school etc. labelling them as being screwed up makes them think they are and they really aren't. A friend of mine a military psychiatric nurse was on deployment with the Americans in Afghan, he said the prevailing attitude with the Americans was that 'everyone has something wrong with them mentally', if you think you haven't you are just in denial, that _everyone_ needs therapy. Well, that's a screwed theory, you are telling people they have mental health issues that need to be sorted instead of telling people they are strong enough to deal with difficult but normal circumstances that arise in life. If your grandparent dies of old age that is part of life and you need to deal with the sadness not rush off to a counsellor for therapy. Bullying needs to be sorted in a proper manner, bullies punished and children taught to stand up for themselves, don't make them mentally weak by telling them they lack self esteem and confidence which needs so much 'special' treatment. A counselling culture is bad for people especially children.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> I have heard this all through my adult life and people wonder why kids are so screwed up these days.  I'm not saying that this reflects on you, because I don't know you as a person.  I'm just pointing out how often I've heard it and the changes that has occurred to youth during the same time this statement became popular.
> 
> I personally can't understand it because I grew up in a neighborhood where everyone looked out for each other and the kids of the neighborhood.  It was a community and that's what a community does.



Neither of the neighborhoods I grew up in were nearly that communal. I think it's a good thing some are, but I wonder how many people our age grew up in such communities. From what I saw, it was more common among poorer people, but I don't know if that was common.

I do think it is better societally - and probably for the child - when people take some responsibility for helping children. We (a global and rather vague "we") often have a notion that raising kids is a parent's job. But very few parents are properly prepared for it. People who make a practice of helping kids over many years become very good at the part of that they work with over and over, and can be of great help to parents. Those youth development centers often have folks like that in them.


----------



## oftheherd1

JowGaWolf said:


> I have heard this all through my adult life and people wonder why kids are so screwed up these days.  I'm not saying that this reflects on you, because I don't know you as a person.  I'm just pointing out how often I've heard it and the changes that has occurred to youth during the same time this statement became popular.
> 
> I personally can't understand it because I grew up in a neighborhood where everyone looked out for each other and the kids of the neighborhood.  It was a community and that's what a community does.



I don't think I want to get involved in the back and forth of this thread that has occurred so far.  I think there has been some good and advice, and even it not as good as I might think it should be, most I am sure has been well intentioned. 

That said, I think there is a lot of truth in what you say here JowGaWolf.  When and where I grew up, people did get involved.  Even if an adult didn't know a kid, they likely would admonish the kid for bad behavior.  That doesn't seem to get done much anywhere these days.  I think some of it has to do with our litigious society.  If they knew the child, not only would they admonish a child, if it was serious enough, they likely would tell the child's parents.  As an aside, if a child got in trouble in school and some punishment (detention, then called having to stay after school, or spanking, the parents would be informed.  If the infraction was serious enough to warrant a spanking at school, another might be waiting at home.

I think it helped children feel there was more accountability in the world.  That is something I think I see lacking.  The idea that every little Johnny and Suzy should be allowed to do whatever they want as part of healthy growing up and learning to express their personality doesn't seem to be working out will.

@Tez3 There is an undercurrent of everyone who has any kind of problem probably needs therapy in the US.  But it really isn't quite as strong as it seems like your friend made it sound.  Assuming she was probably talking to other psychiatric personnel, they may have been speaking from their experience of  being gainfully employed.  I am not against professional therapy being available and utilized.  In fact, I think professionals being able and willing to involuntarily commit people to institutions might help those committed.

But no easy solutions.

@ravenofthewood  I would still appreciate an answer about details of the time he fought back and got into trouble for it.


----------



## Balrog

ravenofthewood said:


> Unfortunately, this same lack of confidence caused Johnny to quit sparring classes; he felt overwhelmed and like he was getting "beat up" all the time. But, yes, I can definitely see other areas where he has grown that I can point out to him. Thank you!
> 
> Johnny is eleven. One other thing I neglected to mention is that he was being bullied all last year and didn't tell anyone about it. He then reacted quite violently one day after the bully gave him a bloody nose and a black eye, and got in major trouble because of it. This year, however, he's in a different school, without that past history, and his teacher and the administration know what is going on.


He needs to get back into sparring class, period.  That is the biggest confidence builder.

And if he's jumped by a gang of four, the best he can do is to pick one of them and hurt that guy as badly as he can.  That will reduce it to three and the others might back off.  Otherwise, rinse and repeat.


----------



## Tez3

oftheherd1 said:


> Assuming *she *was probably talking to other psychiatric personnel, they may have been speaking from their experience of being gainfully employed.



*He* and he was treating American service personnel some of whom had mental health issues but many who didn't but had been referred by the MOs because of the thinking that everyone had issues and needed some sort of therapy. If your best mate is blown up in front of you yes you may need some sort of professional help to deal with it, if your dog dies of old age you don't, you mourn and move on.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't think I want to get involved in the back and forth of this thread that has occurred so far.  I think there has been some good and advice, and even it not as good as I might think it should be, most I am sure has been well intentioned.
> 
> That said, I think there is a lot of truth in what you say here JowGaWolf.  When and where I grew up, people did get involved.  Even if an adult didn't know a kid, they likely would admonish the kid for bad behavior.  That doesn't seem to get done much anywhere these days.  I think some of it has to do with our litigious society.  If they knew the child, not only would they admonish a child, if it was serious enough, they likely would tell the child's parents.  As an aside, if a child got in trouble in school and some punishment (detention, then called having to stay after school, or spanking, the parents would be informed.  If the infraction was serious enough to warrant a spanking at school, another might be waiting at home.
> 
> I think it helped children feel there was more accountability in the world.  That is something I think I see lacking.  The idea that every little Johnny and Suzy should be allowed to do whatever they want as part of healthy growing up and learning to express their personality doesn't seem to be working out will.
> 
> @Tez3 There is an undercurrent of everyone who has any kind of problem probably needs therapy in the US.  But it really isn't quite as strong as it seems like your friend made it sound.  Assuming she was probably talking to other psychiatric personnel, they may have been speaking from their experience of  being gainfully employed.  I am not against professional therapy being available and utilized.  In fact, I think professionals being able and willing to involuntarily commit people to institutions might help those committed.
> 
> But no easy solutions.
> 
> @ravenofthewood  I would still appreciate an answer about details of the time he fought back and got into trouble for it.


I thin tez is about 20 years behind on this subject, and she’s trying to drag her entire country back with her.


----------



## KenpoMaster805

I really fell bad for johnny I experience bullying too in Elemntary through Highschool the only way to cope with that is to joined a martial arts School it can build you self confidence SElf ESteem self control etc and once he has that he will be good he just needs to be focus and in sparring its good for him too so he will know when the opponent is goona hit but make sure he has his guard up. know if you bully is bullying you on your way home and not in the school grown call the police and those kids will be charge they will learn their lesson or go out before they come out s they dony have to bully you


----------



## ravenofthewood

JowGaWolf said:


> I have heard this all through my adult life and people wonder why kids are so screwed up these days.  I'm not saying that this reflects on you, because I don't know you as a person.  I'm just pointing out how often I've heard it and the changes that has occurred to youth during the same time this statement became popular.
> 
> I personally can't understand it because I grew up in a neighborhood where everyone looked out for each other and the kids of the neighborhood.  It was a community and that's what a community does.



Quoting JowGa's post here, but this is really an overall response to everyone who has weighed in on the community issue. 

This is a cultural thing, though, as I believe Tez3 is saying. While it may be the case in the US, and you might find the attitude you are advocating in rural communities in Canada, it is unheard of in Canadian urban culture, especially on the West Coast. I agree with gpseymour that often parents aren't prepared for every challenge they face with their children, but people can only be resources for parents as far as the parents allow/ask them to (cases of abuse, negligence, and neglect obviously excluded). Educators are part of a team with the students' parents, but every well-functioning team has a leader who directs the rest of the group. As the progenitors and legal guardians of the students, parents have this role of leader. Any other person on that team, therefore, is invited by the parent and only has as much influence on the raising of the child as they are granted, whether school teacher, counsellor, doctor, or martial arts instructor. 

While a child is in my dojang, he is in my sphere of influence. That is my opportunity to influence and mold him to grow up to be a moral person and a responsible citizen. As soon as he leaves my dojang, I no longer have any direct control over his life, unless his parents invite me to be more involved. It is none of my business (again, abuse, etc. excepted) how they raise their child, unless they ask for advice. I agree with oftheherd that children don't experience enough accountability nowadays. Will I tell a parent if their child is demonstrating behaviour issues in class? Definitely! Do I expect that the parent will follow up my in-class consequences with consequences of their own? Yes. That is part of working as a team with the parent. Anything that does not happen while under my supervision, however, is none of my business, and parents would strongly resent my further involvement without invitation.

This is especially the case with the vast number of children of immigrants that I work with. Their families have their own familial, cultural, and religious communities which help them to raise their children in the degree of communality their culture expects. They don't want my white, Canadian cultured interference. They bring their children to me so I can teach them martial arts, so I teach them martial arts and do everything I can to show those children that I care about them during the time they are in my class.

I hope this helps to understand the limitations I face in being able to help Johnny.  His dad has invited me to participate in dealing with the issue within the dojang, but no more than that.

I hope to be back later to answer other posts, but it is Thanksgiving weekend here, and I am quite busy.


----------



## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> *He* and he was treating American service personnel some of whom had mental health issues but many who didn't but had been referred by the MOs because of the thinking that everyone had issues and needed some sort of therapy. If your best mate is blown up in front of you yes you may need some sort of professional help to deal with it, if your dog dies of old age you don't, you mourn and move on.



Apologies for the incorrect gender reference.  I did see your pronoun 'he' but somehow that slipped in.

Well I have been out of the Army for a while.  Looks like we have gone from denial to everyone getting referals.


----------



## oftheherd1

Steve said:


> I thin tez is about 20 years behind on this subject, and she’s trying to drag her entire country back with her.



I am guessing that was tongue in cheek, at least I hope so.  I expect what she says works in her country or she wouldn't say it.  I meant to compliment her on the suggestion that a good right hook has its place.


----------



## Tez3

oftheherd1 said:


> I am guessing that was tongue in cheek, at least I hope so.  I expect what she says works in her country or she wouldn't say it.  I meant to compliment her on the suggestion that a good right hook has its place.



I had to look to see what you were talking about, I should have known. Please bear in mind that that poster does his best to belittle, bully and abuse me every chance he gets hence why he's on ignore. His personal attacks have been reported by me several times as this one will be. it's a shame I had to look this time, it's akin to being bitten by a gnat, slightly annoying but of no consequence in the great scheme of things.

However you were quite correct, it was a tongue in cheek comment as much as I do like thumping people. 
The high rate of suicide among ex and serving military has caused the powers that be to worry and demand that anyone with suspected mental health issues be referred to mental health services.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> I am guessing that was tongue in cheek, at least I hope so.  I expect what she says works in her country or she wouldn't say it.  I meant to compliment her on the suggestion that a good right hook has its place.


When you use an anonymous “friend” story as a way to support a stupid idea that brits need therapy less and Americans abuse it, no, not tongue in cheek.   She did this in another thread more specifically about mental illness, and frankly her perspective is ignorant.  It promotes the stigma that people need to be sick in order to benefit from counseling.  Not only does she have a very damaging perspective, it is out of step with her country, which is struggling with mental health just like the rest of us.   

But yes, a good right hook has its place.   I applaud you for focusing on the positive.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> I had to look to see what you were talking about, I should have known. Please bear in mind that that poster does his best to belittle, bully and abuse me every chance he gets hence why he's on ignore. His personal attacks have been reported by me several times as this one will be. it's a shame I had to look this time, it's akin to being bitten by a gnat, slightly annoying but of no consequence in the great scheme of things.
> 
> However you were quite correct, it was a tongue in cheek comment as much as I do like thumping people.
> The high rate of suicide among ex and serving military has caused the powers that be to worry and demand that anyone with suspected mental health issues be referred to mental health services.


bless your heart.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> The high rate of suicide among ex and serving military has caused the powers that be to worry and demand that anyone with suspected mental health issues be referred to mental health services.


Any ethical therapist would determine after meeting with someone for an intake whether or not they need therapy, and relay that to them. So really what you're complaining about is people, who are not qualified to determine if someone has a mental health issue, too often referring people under them to determine if they have a mental health issue. I fail to see what the issue is with that.

If instead, those therapists are acting unethically and treating people for mental health issues they do not have, that is an issue with the therapist, not the person referring people to that therapist.


----------



## oftheherd1

kempodisciple said:


> Any ethical therapist would determine after meeting with someone for an intake whether or not they need therapy, and relay that to them. So really what you're complaining about is people, who are not qualified to determine if someone has a mental health issue, too often referring people under them to determine if they have a mental health issue. I fail to see what the issue is with that.
> 
> If instead, those therapists are acting unethically and treating people for mental health issues they do not have, that is an issue with the therapist, not the person referring people to that therapist.



I don't know why so many military might be referred, but I suspect medical doctors have a protocol they are required to follow.  See or hear certain things, and a referral is made to the psychology section for their evaluation, since that is out of a medical doctor's area of expertise.

As to why that might be done I don't really know.  I would suspect that there is more sensitivity to PTSD, and other conditions that might affect a person's mental health.  Good, bad, or no effect, at least the military can say they are sensitive to the possibility of treatment being needed,  Unlike in past wars where they don't have such a good reputation of admitting a problem exists, much less trying to diagnose and treat it.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know why so many military might be referred, but I suspect medical doctors have a protocol they are required to follow.  See or hear certain things, and a referral is made to the psychology section for their evaluation, since that is out of a medical doctor's area of expertise.
> 
> As to why that might be done I don't really know.  I would suspect that there is more sensitivity to PTSD, and other conditions that might affect a person's mental health.  Good, bad, or no effect, at least the military can say they are sensitive to the possibility of treatment being needed,  Unlike in past wars where they don't have such a good reputation of admitting a problem exists, much less trying to diagnose and treat it.


Right now, the military has egregiously failed to refer soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who need help historically.   more than that, discouraged them from seeking help... that they are being very careful.   And good for them.  This idea that stiff upper lip and a stout heart is all it Takes, is very ignorant.  As I said, it’s like a 30year outdated mindset. 

And I’ve said many times, most people could benefit from counseling. Which is not the same as  therapy, and not just for people who are mentally ill.  And the sooner we can remove the stigma of it. The better off we will all be as a country,  it’s like massage.  Not everyone gets it, but you don’t need to be injured to benefit from it,  And like a good massage therapist, a good counselor will help you figure out if you need more help than they can offer.


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> Any ethical therapist would determine after meeting with someone for an intake whether or not they need therapy, and relay that to them. So really what you're complaining about is people, who are not qualified to determine if someone has a mental health issue, too often referring people under them to determine if they have a mental health issue. I fail to see what the issue is with that.
> 
> If instead, those therapists are acting unethically and treating people for mental health issues they do not have, that is an issue with the therapist, not the person referring people to that therapist.


No I'm not complaining about people who aren't qualified at all, I explained quite succinctly so please don't decide that I meant something else. there generally feeling is that one needs a therapist for every event in your life that didn't go as you wished. being upset/sad/fed up is a normal part of life, you don't need a counsellor or therapist for everything.




oftheherd1 said:


> Good, bad, or no effect, at least the military can say they are sensitive to the possibility of treatment being needed



It's putting up your umbrella so that if there's any comeback you are covered, one of the first things we learn in the military lol. SOPs.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> No I'm not complaining about people who aren't qualified at all, I explained quite succinctly so please don't decide that I meant something else. there generally feeling is that one needs a therapist for every event in your life that didn't go as you wished. being upset/sad/fed up is a normal part of life, you don't need a counsellor or therapist for everything.


You explained you think people get sent to therapists too often. But a therapist won't ethically treat someone unless that person needs therapy. So either you don't understand how the therapeutic intake process works (in the US which is where you were complaining about, it may be different in the UK), or your issue is that you think the people qualified to determine if someone needs therapy are incorrect in their decisions.


----------



## Dirty Dog

kempodisciple said:


> You explained you think people get sent to therapists too often. But a therapist won't ethically treat someone unless that person needs therapy. So either you don't understand how the therapeutic intake process works (in the US which is where you were complaining about, it may be different in the UK), or your issue is that you think the people qualified to determine if someone needs therapy are incorrect in their decisions.



Actually...
If you send someone to be evaluated, the evaluation is likely to include a whole battery of written tests, among other things. 
Interesting thing about those tests...
There is no combination of answers that will lead to a diagnosis of "normal, well adjusted individual." There seems to be a built in assumption that everybody has some psychiatric disorder.


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> You explained you think people get sent to therapists too often. *But a therapist won't ethically treat someone unless that person needs therapy*. So either you don't understand how the therapeutic intake process works (in the US which is where you were complaining about, it may be different in the UK), or your issue is that you think the people qualified to determine if someone needs therapy are incorrect in their decisions.



No.  

Incorrect. A therapist can treat people they believe has issues but doesn't actually have. As I explained when your dog dies of old age you don't need therapy, when your grand parents pass on at the age of ninety your mourn and celebrate your luge but you don't need therapy. Too many people are deciding that the general population need therapy and counselling over normal things that happen in life. This doesn't mean the therapists are dishonest or acting unethically, it means the fashion for counselling and therapy is out of control. I'm sure a great many people think their children need counselling but don't. Counselling and therapy is big business. Your child could need counselling because they are bullied, abused or have mental health problems they don't need it as a matter of course just because parents see their child being sad, quiet or just less boisterous than others.  How many MA instructors here have had children brought into their class because the parent has said they are 'hyperactive' etc when actually the child is quite normal just an active child. Too many people have lost confidence in their own abilities and see counselling and therapy as the answer, an answer many are willing to provide because it also provides a good living. Too many have forgotten that normal human emotions don't need counselling.

Do you actually need someone to tell you this for example?  Why do so many people seek therapy?

and there's this Opinion | In Therapy Forever? Enough Already


this says a lot too 
_"The mother of a Class VII student opined that more often than not children do not require any intervention. "My son has always been shy. But his scores are perfectly fine. Even then the school counselor insisted that there was some problem since he doesn't talk much. Being from the medical fraternity, I have a better idea than other parents and I insisted against it," she said. Her son had recently moved to the school and she says any child would take some time to open up.

A senior member of a Parents-Teachers Association also added, "Parents are generally confused when counselors call them. They don't really know what to do, so they go ahead with the advice of school authorities."
_
This may have a lot to do with it _"While many can afford these services, others are finding it expensive. With a session costing, on an average, Rs 300, many parents are looking at a sizeable amount to pay. According to the counselors, addressing disorders such as ADHD can take anywhere between six months to a year. The sessions for six months can easily cost Rs 15,000-20,000."_
From here Our children don’t need counselling, skeptical parents tell city schools - Mumbai Mirror -

Encouraging parent to use therapists and counselling. Things that children genuinely may need help with are mixed in with a lot that they don't need counselling for. Homework stress? Why would we take a child for counselling especially as such an early age to learn problem solving? School and parents are there for that, not paid therapists. Parents are abdicating their responsibilities if they send their children to a counsellor to learn basic human functions, perhaps though they believe what they are told, that as parents they can't know what is best and a (paid) professional has to do it. perhaps if anyone needs a boost in self confidence it's parents. Taking Your Child to a Therapist
_
_


----------



## Tez3

The 'experts' who know better than you ( that's me being sarcastic)
Why You Aren't Happily Ever After Anymore

How to Deal With Your Emotionally Neglectful Parents

19 Things You Should Never Say to Kids

Why Men Aren't Really Men Anymore etc. etc. etc. Name a subject and there's experts telling you that you are doing it/thinking about it wrongly.

I'm not saying this Zen Child Discipline in 8 Steps  is necessarily bad but do you realise how much advice there is for parents out there, books, programmes, blogs, magazines, websites etc? All the conflicting advice is damaging, everyone wants to give their opinion so now many parents are left thinking their child is screwed up and they have made a mess of everything so off to counselling and therapy is it. Just. No. Keep it for real issues not shyness or not talking much.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> No.
> 
> Incorrect. A therapist can treat people they believe has issues but doesn't actually have. As I explained when your dog dies of old age you don't need therapy, when your grand parents pass on at the age of ninety your mourn and celebrate your luge but you don't need therapy. Too many people are deciding that the general population need therapy and counselling over normal things that happen in life. This doesn't mean the therapists are dishonest or acting unethically, it means the fashion for counselling and therapy is out of control. I'm sure a great many people think their children need counselling but don't. Counselling and therapy is big business. Your child could need counselling because they are bullied, abused or have mental health problems they don't need it as a matter of course just because parents see their child being sad, quiet or just less boisterous than others.  How many MA instructors here have had children brought into their class because the parent has said they are 'hyperactive' etc when actually the child is quite normal just an active child. Too many people have lost confidence in their own abilities and see counselling and therapy as the answer, an answer many are willing to provide because it also provides a good living. Too many have forgotten that normal human emotions don't need counselling.
> 
> Do you actually need someone to tell you this for example?  Why do so many people seek therapy?
> 
> and there's this Opinion | In Therapy Forever? Enough Already
> 
> 
> this says a lot too
> _"The mother of a Class VII student opined that more often than not children do not require any intervention. "My son has always been shy. But his scores are perfectly fine. Even then the school counselor insisted that there was some problem since he doesn't talk much. Being from the medical fraternity, I have a better idea than other parents and I insisted against it," she said. Her son had recently moved to the school and she says any child would take some time to open up.
> 
> A senior member of a Parents-Teachers Association also added, "Parents are generally confused when counselors call them. They don't really know what to do, so they go ahead with the advice of school authorities."
> _
> This may have a lot to do with it _"While many can afford these services, others are finding it expensive. With a session costing, on an average, Rs 300, many parents are looking at a sizeable amount to pay. According to the counselors, addressing disorders such as ADHD can take anywhere between six months to a year. The sessions for six months can easily cost Rs 15,000-20,000."_
> From here Our children don’t need counselling, skeptical parents tell city schools - Mumbai Mirror -
> 
> Encouraging parent to use therapists and counselling. Things that children genuinely may need help with are mixed in with a lot that they don't need counselling for. Homework stress? Why would we take a child for counselling especially as such an early age to learn problem solving? School and parents are there for that, not paid therapists. Parents are abdicating their responsibilities if they send their children to a counsellor to learn basic human functions, perhaps though they believe what they are told, that as parents they can't know what is best and a (paid) professional has to do it. perhaps if anyone needs a boost in self confidence it's parents. Taking Your Child to a Therapist


Nothing is that absolute. Some people do need help when their dog dies. The event isn't what they need help with - it's their reaction to it. Just as some people deal with real trauma in a way that leaves them not needing help, while many people would. Some people, for one reason or another, don't cope as well as others do.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> The event isn't what they need help with - it's their reaction to it.



Unless it's an abnormal reaction they don't need counselling for it, they need friends and family. How on earth did the world manage before paid counsellors came along? Everyone copes with things differently but being told that you need to see a 'professional' every time because the way you deal with it isn't thought to be the 'right' way is damaging. It's in the counselling industrie's interest that people lose confidence in their abilities to cope just with the help of friends and family isn't it. When your dear grandmother dies you need to mourn and grieve, taking that away from people by counselling them is wrong. Too many now think you have to be happy all the time, that you have to cope with everything with 'strategies' given to you by a counsellor, there's nothing wrong with throwing yourself on your bed and bawling your eyes out, there's nothing wrong with being sad or nor is there anything wrong with feeling bad about things. It's human nature, it doesn't need to be talked out to a person you are paying, instead sit and chat with your best mate over a few beers, they'll know you better than a therapist anyway. Your best mate gets you drunk, listens to you burbling then puts you to bed and tells you it will be fine, and they're right it will be because that's the 'counselling' you need. *Keep professional help for the mental health problems that need it.*


----------



## Tez3

Emotions - How To Understand, Identify and Release Your Emotions - M.K. Projects

_"Emotions are not the only cause of illness.  Little babies and young children get ill, and not always because of their emotional issues." 

"We are bombarded with all types of electricity. These energies affect the physical, mental/ intellectual, energetic and emotional health of people." _

_"Showing emotion in public in North American and European societies represents being “out of control” a great sign of weakness."  _Someone who has never lived in Europe obviously!

and how to deal with these nasty emotions 
_"Use Choming Essences To Dig Out Buried and Repressed Emotions  - I have worked with many people who have told me they did not have buried emotions, even when a Vibrational Assessment showed them they had many such emotions.  I have seen these same men and women tell me after using Choming Essences for a few months that they began to remember old angers, resentments, feel sadness, regret, and other emotions.  *They thought these feelings and memories had long gone from them and were quite surprised to see they were still present. * Using Choming Essences is a very powerful help in bringing your emotions to the surface! _

_Choming Essences *will dig out buried emotions and memories and bring them to the surface so you can remember them, feel them and release them.*  The Choming Essences that are especially powerful for this are as follows:  Chiastolite Gem Essence; Love Lies Bleeding Flower Essence; Pearl Gem Essence; Spirea Bush Flower Essence; the Sunflower Essence; and the White Olive Tree Essence.  Many other Choming Essences will also help to bring emotions to the surface so you can feel them."_

*Heaven save us from people like this.*


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually...
> If you send someone to be evaluated, the evaluation is likely to include a whole battery of written tests, among other things.
> Interesting thing about those tests...
> There is no combination of answers that will lead to a diagnosis of "normal, well adjusted individual." There seems to be a built in assumption that everybody has some psychiatric disorder.


This is entirely untrue. I have seen plenty of psychologists/psychiatrists whom have done evaluations and determined that someone does not have a disorder. While I do not do the same lengthy evaluation process as a psychologist might (I am a psychotherapist), I have an intake process, and have informed people in the past that I do not think they need therapy. There is very specific criteria for each disorder, and if you do not meet that criteria, you do not have that disorder. If they, personally, believe that they will benefit from it, I will let them begin the process then a few weeks in ask them how they are benefitting. If it seems like they are, I will continue, if not I will inform them of that. The ethical thing, and what professionals are supposed to be doing, is informing someone if they do not have a disorder. If someone is not taking these steps, that is an issue with the professional, not the referring entity.

The one exception is probation/parole/etc. court system who is mandating someone to therapy and/or substance abuse treatment. Even then, I have called whomever is doing the mandate and informed them I do not think the person needs therapy/treatment. Most of my colleagues have done the same at some point.


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> This is entirely untrue. I have seen plenty of *psychologists/psychiatrists* whom have done evaluations and determined that someone does not have a disorder



They are, at least here, medical professionals not counsellors or 'therapists'. My point was though that so many people are going to counsellors and therapists because they've bought in to the 'everyone has a mental health issue' fashion.



kempodisciple said:


> If someone is not taking these steps, that is an issue with the professional, not the referring entity.



The 'referring entity' I was referring to was *specifically* the military not in general and to which you seem to be getting upset about as if it were a personal attack on you. I explained why they are doing it. I will reiterate... when a service person may look as if they have a problem they are referred usually very quickly to the MO who after they find no physical cause will refer on to mental health professionals, this is because _it's standard_ _practice in all militaries everywhere_ to pass on a problem and get it off their back. Passing up it up the chain of command is the most usual thing, getting decisions out of people is always difficult so in light of the well publicised mental health conditions these service people are bumped very quickly into mental health programmes, it's either a putting up your umbrella manoeuvre or as it's usually called 'covering your ****'.  There's also the issue as well that no one wants to serve on the frontline etc with someone who may 'flip'.

One thing you may want to think about is how different cultures affect how mental health is considered. The US is very different from the UK and Europe when it comes to how we deal with life, our healthcare systems are also different with much of ours being free at point of use so less chance of money being made out of counselling etc. If we are referred to a mental health professional is will be free to us, so no one is going to make money out of counselling us because our pet rabbit died. The Association for Pet Loss and Bereavement


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Unless it's an abnormal reaction they don't need counselling for it, they need friends and family.


That's rather the point. Some people have abnormal reactions. That's why I said "The event isn't what they need help with - it's their reaction to it."


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> They are, at least here, medical professionals not counsellors or 'therapists'. My point was though that so many people are going to counsellors and therapists because they've bought in to the 'everyone has a mental health issue' fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> The 'referring entity' I was referring to was *specifically* the military not in general and to which you seem to be getting upset about as if it were a personal attack on you. I explained why they are doing it. I will reiterate... when a service person may look as if they have a problem they are referred usually very quickly to the MO who after they find no physical cause will refer on to mental health professionals, this is because _it's standard_ _practice in all militaries everywhere_ to pass on a problem and get it off their back. Passing up it up the chain of command is the most usual thing, getting decisions out of people is always difficult so in light of the well publicised mental health conditions these service people are bumped very quickly into mental health programmes, it's either a putting up your umbrella manoeuvre or as it's usually called 'covering your ****'.  There's also the issue as well that no one wants to serve on the frontline etc with someone who may 'flip'.
> 
> One thing you may want to think about is how different cultures affect how mental health is considered. The US is very different from the UK and Europe when it comes to how we deal with life, our healthcare systems are also different with much of ours being free at point of use so less chance of money being made out of counselling etc. If we are referred to a mental health professional is will be free to us, so no one is going to make money out of counselling us because our pet rabbit died. The Association for Pet Loss and Bereavement


To clarify, I was not taking it as a personal attack. If anything, I was saying that if there are issues, then it is the mental health professionals in the military who are at fault, not those serving. I was clarifying how mental health professionals in the US handle referrals, and why it is not a bad thing to receive referrals in the US, as you've made multiple comments on this thread and others about there being too many referrals, and a couple of those comments specify that there are too many referrals specifically in the US, not in the UK/Europe. Regarding making money out of counseling, even if it's government-sponsored, if they create the organization and people go to it, they're making money off it. Just a different place where the money is coming from.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> Unless it's an abnormal reaction they don't need counselling for it, they need friends and family. How on earth did the world manage before paid counsellors came along? Everyone copes with things differently but being told that you need to see a 'professional' every time because the way you deal with it isn't thought to be the 'right' way is damaging. It's in the counselling industrie's interest that people lose confidence in their abilities to cope just with the help of friends and family isn't it. When your dear grandmother dies you need to mourn and grieve, taking that away from people by counselling them is wrong. Too many now think you have to be happy all the time, that you have to cope with everything with 'strategies' given to you by a counsellor, there's nothing wrong with throwing yourself on your bed and bawling your eyes out, there's nothing wrong with being sad or nor is there anything wrong with feeling bad about things. It's human nature, it doesn't need to be talked out to a person you are paying, instead sit and chat with your best mate over a few beers, they'll know you better than a therapist anyway. Your best mate gets you drunk, listens to you burbling then puts you to bed and tells you it will be fine, and they're right it will be because that's the 'counselling' you need. *Keep professional help for the mental health problems that need it.*


Just so you are aware, based on my own experience and the experience of colleagues that I've talked to, the training in the counseling industry on grief is similar to what you've said. I've been to countless seminars, and I remember hearing over and over in class, that just because someone is sad or grieving does not mean they're depressed. There's also the idea throughout any literature on grief/trauma that everyone grieves in their own way, and even if it's abnormal they don't necessarily need counseling, but a friend to talk to. The "coping strategies" that are generally recommended, from my own experience, almost all involve socializing/talking with a friend, feeling your emotions (crying), or doing an activity with others. Essentially all the things the average person already does to handle grief.


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> Just so you are aware, based on my own experience and the experience of colleagues that I've talked to, the training in the counseling industry on grief is similar to what you've said. I've been to countless seminars, and I remember hearing over and over in class, that just because someone is sad or grieving does not mean they're depressed. There's also the idea throughout any literature on grief/trauma that everyone grieves in their own way, and even if it's abnormal they don't necessarily need counseling, but a friend to talk to. The "coping strategies" that are generally recommended, from my own experience, almost all involve socializing/talking with a friend, feeling your emotions (crying), or doing an activity with others. Essentially all the things the average person already does to handle grief.



However you have yet to convince the general public who are relying on the media, etc for their info, if you do that then you and your colleagues wouldn't have to hear over and over again about normal behaviour etc. it would be a given. 



kempodisciple said:


> then it is the mental health professionals in the military who are at fault, not those serving.



Not really, because the mental health professionals are the last in the chain, it's those who are serving who are sending people to the MOs as well as reporting up their chain of command that serving personnel are in need of being referred to the mental health chaps. The mental health people get the people who are referred to them as well as those who self refer. You can hardly blame them for having people come and see them.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> That's rather the point. Some people have abnormal reactions. That's why I said "The event isn't what they need help with - it's their reaction to it."



Some have abnormal reactions but most don't, if you look at the site I posted for those who lose their pets they have  _pre bereavement_ counselling sessions. Such sites and many like them as well as magazines, RB articles, television shows etc are telling people they need counselling when they don't. It's obvious why, it's for financial gain but teaching people that the grieving process for everyone needs to have counselling involved is nonsense.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Some have abnormal reactions but most don't, if you look at the site I posted for those who lose their pets they have  _pre bereavement_ counselling sessions. Such sites and many like them as well as magazines, RB articles, television shows etc are telling people they need counselling when they don't. It's obvious why, it's for financial gain but teaching people that the grieving process for everyone needs to have counselling involved is nonsense.


But none of that has anything to do with my post, Tez.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> However you have yet to convince the general public who are relying on the media, etc for their info, if you do that then you and your colleagues wouldn't have to hear over and over again about normal behaviour etc. it would be a given.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, because the mental health professionals are the last in the chain, it's those who are serving who are sending people to the MOs as well as reporting up their chain of command that serving personnel are in need of being referred to the mental health chaps. The mental health people get the people who are referred to them as well as those who self refer. You can hardly blame them for having people come and see them.


Either something I'm saying is not getting through to you, or something you're saying is not getting through to me. But judging from past experiences on this site, we'll just go around and around for another 7 pages, so i'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> But none of that has anything to do with my post, Tez.



It has actually but I guess you don't see it. 



kempodisciple said:


> Either something I'm saying is not getting through to you, or something you're saying is not getting through to me. But judging from past experiences on this site, we'll just go around and around for another 7 pages, so i'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.




Sigh. I'm off for counselling, I have a very fine malt waiting.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> It has actually but I guess you don't see it.


But it doesn't. I said some people have abnormal reactions. You posted about bad counseling services, people who have normal reactions, etc. My point was a simple one: some people actually do need counseling, even for normal events, because it's their reaction that they need help with, not the event.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> But it doesn't. I said some people have abnormal reactions. You posted about bad counseling services, people who have normal reactions, etc. My point was a simple one: some people actually do need counseling, even for normal events, because it's their reaction that they need help with, not the event.



Argh. I said that the counselling services would have people think they need counselling for normal reactions. Yes, people who have abnormal reactions ( though the criteria for that could depend on where you live, for instance in some countries you are expected to be weeping and wailing, fainting etc when someone dies, in others that would be considered excessive) but the counselling services, the media etc want you to think that any reaction needs counselling. Hence my posts about the pets bereavement service and it's pre bereavement counselling for you before your pet dies! it's been sold as a necessity for everyday life, *people have normal reactions but are being told they aren't normal and need treatment.* I am perfectly capable of understanding there is a place for counselling but *my point before you posted was that it is being mis-sold.* Then you posted telling me that people who have 'abnormal' reactions need counselling! I would take it as read that abnormal reactions to 'normal' events need help, I wouldn't assume anyone was stupid enough to have to be told that. My point though remains the same, there are a lot of counselling 'services' as well as the media who  want you to believe *every* circumstance needs counselling *regardless of your reactions*. My main annoyance is that the reactions if you like aren't taken into consideration. There's plenty of proof if you want to use google fu. Someone dies, you need counselling,  homework stressing your child counselling, your pet is going to die some time, counselling. No mention of what should alert you to needing counselling just the event happening, nothing else.


----------



## Dirty Dog

kempodisciple said:


> This is entirely untrue. I have seen plenty of psychologists/psychiatrists whom have done evaluations and determined that someone does not have a disorder. While I do not do the same lengthy evaluation process as a psychologist might (I am a psychotherapist), I have an intake process, and have informed people in the past that I do not think they need therapy. There is very specific criteria for each disorder, and if you do not meet that criteria, you do not have that disorder. If they, personally, believe that they will benefit from it, I will let them begin the process then a few weeks in ask them how they are benefitting. If it seems like they are, I will continue, if not I will inform them of that. The ethical thing, and what professionals are supposed to be doing, is informing someone if they do not have a disorder. If someone is not taking these steps, that is an issue with the professional, not the referring entity.
> 
> The one exception is probation/parole/etc. court system who is mandating someone to therapy and/or substance abuse treatment. Even then, I have called whomever is doing the mandate and informed them I do not think the person needs therapy/treatment. Most of my colleagues have done the same at some point.



It would be nice if you'd addressed what I said, instead of this red herring.
Individuals assessing people can and do decide that there's no need/no benefit to therapy. That has nothing to do with what I said. 
It's absolutely true that the standardized testing has no combination of answers that results in a score of "normal."


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Dirty Dog said:


> It would be nice if you'd addressed what I said, instead of this red herring.
> Individuals assessing people can and do decide that there's no need/no benefit to therapy. That has nothing to do with what I said.
> It's absolutely true that the standardized testing has no combination of answers that results in a score of "normal."


You stated that there is a built in assumption that everyone has a psychiatric disorder. That's the part that's not true. Not everyone has a psychiatric disorder, and most of the tests do have the ability to state someone does not have a disorder. Again, if someone does not meet the criteria for a specific disorder, they do not have that disorder, and no one should be diagnosing them otherwise.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> You stated that there is a built in assumption that everyone has a psychiatric disorder. That's the part that's not true. Not everyone has a psychiatric disorder, and most of the tests do have the ability to state someone does not have a disorder. Again, if someone does not meet the criteria for a specific disorder, they do not have that disorder, and no one should be diagnosing them otherwise.


So, is the concept one of exclusion? There’s no specific set of answers for “normal”, because that’s the conclusion if their answers don’t match a diagnosis?


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> You stated that there is a built in assumption that everyone has a psychiatric disorder. That's the part that's not true. Not everyone has a psychiatric disorder, and most of the tests do have the ability to state someone does not have a disorder. Again, if someone does not meet the criteria for a specific disorder, they do not have that disorder, and no one should be diagnosing them otherwise.



I think you have missed his point and mine for that matter. You are telling us that from a professional's point of view ( and sensible people's for that matter) that not everyone has a psychiatric disorder though usually this is called an 'issue' by non professionals and the assumption by many is that everyone has 'issues' therefore everyone needs counselling. I think we need to differentiate medical professionals ie psychiatrists and psychologists from those who are non medical/trained or just a bit trained  counsellors and therapists.

The assumption is as I said in my original post about the military psychiatric nurse was that it was considered by the people he worked with that everyone had 'issues' that needed to be 'sorted',  that everyone had disorders or mental illnesses but they had issues for which therapy or counselling was appropriate. If you said you were fine you'd be told that you were in denial. 

You are talking about mental illnesses and things like personality disorders but these counselling sites as well as the media etc are making it out that if you are _unhappy_ in your job you can have counselling, if someone says boo to you, you can have counselling not treatment for a disorder but counselling for everything in your life that most people consider just getting on with things and coping perfectly well. In the military they are playing safe and these 'issues' are getting referred to healthcare professionals because it looks bad to the public if one of these issues turns out to be suicidal tendencies. However many of the medics do fall into the trap of thinking issues need treatment.

There is a huge counselling industry, one that's starting to emerge in the UK which is worrying.  Every time now something happens there's phone lines popping up for counselling. After the bombing at the concert in Manchester there were places offering counselling for children, not for the ones who were there (who have received appropriate care) but children who were totally unaffected by it everywhere. Once you start telling children they are traumatised when things like this happen they will believe it and therein lies a lot of trouble for the future.


----------



## lklawson

JowGaWolf said:


> This isn't true.  The victim usually gets beaten up in addition for the punishment for fighting.  If a child is going to be punished for fighting then he /she might as well win the fight.  No need to have a double loss.


Of course it's true.  The victim of the bully is often punished by school authorities with suspension, expulsion, or worse, equally with the assailant.

No idea why you decided to go with "and he gets beaten up too."


----------



## oftheherd1

Steve said:


> Right now, the military has egregiously failed to refer soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who need help historically.   more than that, discouraged them from seeking help... that they are being very careful.   And good for them.  This idea that stiff upper lip and a stout heart is all it Takes, is very ignorant.  As I said, it’s like a 30year outdated mindset.
> 
> And I’ve said many times, most people could benefit from counseling. Which is not the same as  therapy, and not just for people who are mentally ill.  And the sooner we can remove the stigma of it. The better off we will all be as a country,  it’s like massage.  Not everyone gets it, but you don’t need to be injured to benefit from it,  And like a good massage therapist, a good counselor will help you figure out if you need more help than they can offer.



I don't have the training to disagree, but can you tell me how we got along without the counseling and therapy in years past?  Or maybe we didn't.  I think we certainly failed a lot of servicemen.  But then most don't go through what some servicemen do.


----------



## oftheherd1

lklawson said:


> Of course it's true.  The victim of the bully is often punished by school authorities with suspension, expulsion, or worse, equally with the assailant.
> 
> No idea why you decided to go with "and he gets beaten up too."



Retaliation for turning the bully in?


----------



## lklawson

oftheherd1 said:


> Retaliation for turning the bully in?


When I've seen it happen, the victim didn't turn anyone in.  It appears that JowGaWolf was saying the victim not only gets punished by the school authorities but the bully attacking him and beating him up in the first place, which lead to the official punishment, is also a "punishment."  That just doesn't make any sense.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JowGaWolf

lklawson said:


> Of course it's true.  The victim of the bully is often punished by school authorities with suspension, expulsion, or worse, equally with the assailant.
> 
> No idea why you decided to go with "and he gets beaten up too."


  You misunderstood me.  Either that or I messed up in the communication somewhere.   The victim usually doesn't fight back because it's against the school rules which means the victim gets beaten up by the bully.  The schools are too scared to declare who is at fault so the victim gets punished along with the bully.   So if the victim is going to get punished anyway, then they might as well not get their butt kicked for the sake of trying to follow the school rule.

This is the scenario that often plays out in Georgia. There have already been news reports and parent / teacher discussions about this policy.


----------



## lklawson

JowGaWolf said:


> You misunderstood me.  Either that or I messed up in the communication somewhere.   The victim usually doesn't fight back because it's against the school rules which means the victim gets beaten up by the bully.  The schools are too scared to declare who is at fault so the victim gets punished along with the bully.   So if the victim is going to get punished anyway, then they might as well not get their butt kicked for the sake of trying to follow the school rule.
> 
> This is the scenario that often plays out in Georgia. There have already been news reports and parent / teacher discussions about this policy.


OK.  I guess I did misunderstand what you were writing.


----------



## Tez3

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't have the training to disagree, but can you tell me how we got along without the counseling and therapy in years past?  Or maybe we didn't.  I think we certainly failed a lot of servicemen.  But then most don't go through what some servicemen do.



I don't think we so much failed the military but even now it's hard to get them to admit their could be problems. They don't have 'weakness', this goes back to at least the First World War where men with 'shell shock' were marked down as lacking moral fibre and were basically cowards who refused to do their duty. I believe Patton also believed this was the case, soldiers didn't crack up, they were weak or cowards so it you suffered you kept it to yourself. things are getting better but it's still taken authorities a long time to admit soldiers have mental health problems due to their experiences.

I think the attitude of soldiers being 'weak' also often carries over into attitudes on bullying, that only 'weak' people are bullied. I've heard many people say they were bullied at school but it never hurt them. it made them tougher. Many don't consider a lot of things that go on actually bullying, it gets called 'banter' in the military and in workplaces. You will often hear 'oh can't you take a joke' after some incident or other. Often children are told to 'toughen up' or to 'stop being a wimp'. We need to look at the attitudes that allow bullying not just in schools but in workplaces and on social media.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> So, is the concept one of exclusion? There’s no specific set of answers for “normal”, because that’s the conclusion if their answers don’t match a diagnosis?


To clarify, and this is way off topic at this point, but I personally wouldn't use the word normal, or tell them they're normal or abnormal, instead I would use healthy. It might be easier to explain using a medical example.

Earlier this month, I went to get my heart checked out. Turns out my heart is abnormal. By that, I have a low heart rate, lower than the norm, and my heart pumps a lot of blood with each pump. This is absolutely healthy, from what I was told, but if someone asked me if my heart was normal I would say no.

So for mental health: Let's take Tez's example of a pet dying. If I had a dog, and he died, I would probably be devastated. I would cope by talking with my fiancée, and spend a lot of time training at my dojo. Is this normal? My bet would be no, most people probably talk to their friends or significant other, but not a lot of people would handle it by getting thrown around/throwing other people around. If you think about it, it's downright weird that that's what I enjoy and is what gets me out of a funk. Is it healthy? I think so, and I certainly wouldn't need counseling because of it, even though I'm not 'normal'.

Again though, entirely off topic by this point, those words are just one of the things that I care far more than I should about their definitions/differences, like some people on here (not saying names) with what 'self defence' is.


----------



## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> I don't think we so much failed the military but even now it's hard to get them to admit their could be problems. They don't have 'weakness', this goes back to at least the First World War where men with 'shell shock' were marked down as lacking moral fibre and were basically cowards who refused to do their duty. I believe Patton also believed this was the case, soldiers didn't crack up, they were weak or cowards so it you suffered you kept it to yourself. things are getting better but it's still taken authorities a long time to admit soldiers have mental health problems due to their experiences.
> 
> I think the attitude of soldiers being 'weak' also often carries over into attitudes on bullying, that only 'weak' people are bullied. I've heard many people say they were bullied at school but it never hurt them. it made them tougher. Many don't consider a lot of things that go on actually bullying, it gets called 'banter' in the military and in workplaces. You will often hear 'oh can't you take a joke' after some incident or other. Often children are told to 'toughen up' or to 'stop being a wimp'. We need to look at the attitudes that allow bullying not just in schools but in workplaces and on social media.



One of the things that happened to soldiers, especially in WWI when artillery was getting much more use, a loud noise's immediate response was to dive to the ground.  Those people, whether after WWI or WWII, were said to have shell shock.  Sometimes it was said with sympathy, sometimes with derision.

Funny, when I was assigned to Saigon, not many noises bothered me.  Nor during the time I was upcountry with the airborne.  But the kids in Saigon often had this little toy that they would throw up in the air and it had a tail that ensured it would fall nose first.  In the nose was a cap similar to what we used to use in toy guns in the US.  It sounded just like the cap from a hand grenade.  For somewhere close to the first month in Saigon, when I heard that I would start, begin dropping and looking around for the source of the noise.  Luckily I never dropped more than a slight bending of the legs as I looked around, and soon accepted I wasn't being fragged.    Now if I hear a loud noise, my brain begins trying to process its cause as I turn my head.  I seldom react beyond that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> To clarify, and this is way off topic at this point, but I personally wouldn't use the word normal, or tell them they're normal or abnormal, instead I would use healthy. It might be easier to explain using a medical example.
> 
> Earlier this month, I went to get my heart checked out. Turns out my heart is abnormal. By that, I have a low heart rate, lower than the norm, and my heart pumps a lot of blood with each pump. This is absolutely healthy, from what I was told, but if someone asked me if my heart was normal I would say no.
> 
> So for mental health: Let's take Tez's example of a pet dying. If I had a dog, and he died, I would probably be devastated. I would cope by talking with my fiancée, and spend a lot of time training at my dojo. Is this normal? My bet would be no, most people probably talk to their friends or significant other, but not a lot of people would handle it by getting thrown around/throwing other people around. If you think about it, it's downright weird that that's what I enjoy and is what gets me out of a funk. Is it healthy? I think so, and I certainly wouldn't need counseling because of it, even though I'm not 'normal'.
> 
> Again though, entirely off topic by this point, those words are just one of the things that I care far more than I should about their definitions/differences, like some people on here (not saying names) with what 'self defence' is.


Agreed. I put "normal" in quotes to indicate it wasn't really the right word - "healthy" is much better. I don't know if it's still called this, but when I was studying psychology, the area of dysfunction was "abnormal psychology", and the word "normal" was bandied about more than was...well, healthy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> One of the things that happened to soldiers, especially in WWI when artillery was getting much more use, a loud noise's immediate response was to dive to the ground.  Those people, whether after WWI or WWII, were said to have shell shock.  Sometimes it was said with sympathy, sometimes with derision.
> 
> Funny, when I was assigned to Saigon, not many noises bothered me.  Nor during the time I was upcountry with the airborne.  But the kids in Saigon often had this little toy that they would throw up in the air and it had a tail that ensured it would fall nose first.  In the nose was a cap similar to what we used to use in toy guns in the US.  It sounded just like the cap from a hand grenade.  For somewhere close to the first month in Saigon, when I heard that I would start, begin dropping and looking around for the source of the noise.  Luckily I never dropped more than a slight bending of the legs as I looked around, and soon accepted I wasn't being fragged.    Now if I hear a loud noise, my brain begins trying to process its cause as I turn my head.  I seldom react beyond that.


Entirely off topic...growing up, I had one of those toys you are talking about.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I put "normal" in quotes to indicate it wasn't really the right word - "healthy" is much better. I don't know if it's still called this, but when I was studying psychology, the area of dysfunction was "abnormal psychology", and the word "normal" was bandied about more than was...well, healthy.


yeah, in undergrad it was still called abnormal psychology, but we would go over the difference, and in my graduate school, I believe we called it psychopathology which to me is a much better term for it.


----------



## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> Entirely off topic...growing up, I had one of those toys you are talking about.



Yep, I remember those.


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> yeah, in undergrad it was still called abnormal psychology, but we would go over the difference, and in my graduate school, I believe we called it psychopathology which to me is a much better term for it.



Don't forget 'eccentric' as a classification...many English people are eccentric though the Scots, Welsh and Irish aren't, they are just mad Celtic buggers.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> Yep, I remember those.


You know, I wonder how much of my current shoulder trouble could be tracked back to throwing those straight up as high and hard as I could back then...


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> Of course it's true.  The victim of the bully is often punished by school authorities with suspension, expulsion, or worse, equally with the assailant.
> 
> No idea why you decided to go with "and he gets beaten up too."



That is his point. You are in a fight. You are getting in trouble for it. Win or loose. Good guy. Bad guy.

So you may as well clean house while you are there.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't have the training to disagree, but can you tell me how we got along without the counseling and therapy in years past?  Or maybe we didn't.  I think we certainly failed a lot of servicemen.  But then most don't go through what some servicemen do.


Short answer is we didn’t.  That’s correct.  There is a longer answer, but I’m working 12 hour days for the next few and I’m pretty tired.  I’ve worked with so many homeless vets over my career I have a particular perspective.  I think the two biggest issues in our country are the deplorable treatment of mental illness and the deplorable treatment of drug addicts, particularly opioids.  Both of these have lead us to a huge number of people who are homeless.

IMO, We should be encouraging anyone who wants to talk to someone to do so.  There should be no qualifications, IMO.  It’s like anything else. You don’t have to have a chronic illness to see a doctor.   You don’t have to be sick or injured at all to see an acupuncturist, a chiropractor or a masseuse.  But we still mess that up.


----------



## Langenschwert

There is no easy solution to bullying. Generally, bullies only respect force. Modern schools are also non-permissive with regards to fighting, punishing the victim along with the aggressor if an altercation occurs. This is compounded by the fact that some teachers are themselves bullies, and care not at all if a "wimp" gets beaten up. Often the bullies are protected by the school, either deliberately or through inaction or by weak policy.

Jow Ga Wolf is correct in that if a kid is going to get in trouble anyway for defending him or herself, they might as well acquit themselves well and defend themselves successfully. No sense adding a beatdown to a reprimand if one can prevent the former. Not fighting back can be very dangerous. If the defender wins, the reputation alone may be sufficient to prevent further incidents.

I would totally stand up to school administration if they allowed a child of mine to be bullied, and then punished him or her for fighting back. Lawyers gotta eat, and I'd be happy feeding one over that.

I feel for the OP, and my heart goes out to them. From what I read of the thread (about 7 pages worth, ouch), I think the approach is good. Bullying enrages me more than nearly anything I can think of. Good for you for making a difference.


----------



## oftheherd1

Langenschwert said:


> There is no easy solution to bullying. Generally, bullies only respect force. Modern schools are also non-permissive with regards to fighting, punishing the victim along with the aggressor if an altercation occurs. This is compounded by the fact that some teachers are themselves bullies, and care not at all if a "wimp" gets beaten up. Often the bullies are protected by the school, either deliberately or through inaction or by weak policy.
> 
> *Jow Ga Wolf is correct in that if a kid is going to get in trouble anyway for defending him or herself, they might as well acquit themselves well and defend themselves successfully. No sense adding a beatdown to a reprimand if one can prevent the former.* Not fighting back can be very dangerous. If the defender wins, the reputation alone may be sufficient to prevent further incidents.
> 
> I would totally stand up to school administration if they allowed a child of mine to be bullied, and then punished him or her for fighting back. Lawyers gotta eat, and I'd be happy feeding one over that.
> 
> I feel for the OP, and my heart goes out to them. From what I read of the thread (about 7 pages worth, ouch), I think the approach is good. Bullying enrages me more than nearly anything I can think of. Good for you for making a difference.


 
I expect most, if not all here at MT, dislike the idea of a kid being bullied.  It is an easy subject to get emotional about.  But I think the bolded part of your post carries its own dangers.  In today's society, at least in the USA, teachers nor schools want the burden of finding out the truth.  It is easier to write a policy of zero tolerance, and in essence, blame the victim for being a victim, and only throw in the bully to make it look good, therefore not having to assign blame to only one child. 

I will be the first to condemn those teachers and schools for that type of cowardly solution.  Unfortunately, I must then also be the first to admit we don't give teachers the tools we used to give them, nor do we require accountability of the bully nor the bully's parents.  It is bad, but it is the way it is.  When teachers do not have any means of proving who started what the bully does out of their eyesight or the bully has accomplices, and the school administrations don't want to defend suspensions for the bully in court, you end up where we are.

So while on the one hand, I would like to see my grandkids whup up on any bully, I don't want to see them get in trouble too.  But if other solutions did not work (and I can't give you a 'one to fix all' solution), then I think I would be giving them techniques to provide a different solution.  I agree there may be times when that is the only solution, even if the victim gets a piece of the punishment as well.  But ...

If you are a lawyer you must be familiar with the idea that a bully and/or his cronies might be willing to lie in hearing/court.  Lose a hearing/lawsuit against the school and you might find evidence in that hearing/court being used against your child in a tort case against your child (and you as the parent), for beating up and then harassing the 'poor bully.' 

Sad state of affairs.  No easy solution that I can see.  But I feel your frustration.


----------



## Langenschwert

Unfortunately, it speaks to a greater problem in society: institutions protect the perpetrators and prosecute the victims... from schools to workplaces to the highest levels of government. Bullies crave power and gravitate to those positions, protecting members of their own sick tribe. I don't know of a single person bullied at work that ever found redress through HR. HR's job is to protect the bully and paint the victim as a complainer. Also, unions are often unwilling to act against a member accused of poor conduct. 

But the thing is...while we have bullies entrenched at all levels of society, they learn it at school. Bullies learn they can get away with it, and victims learn that there's nothing they can do about it. 

Yes, bullying makes me mad. I hate victimization of any kind. And i don't even have kids.


----------



## Steve

I agree with @Langenschwert that there are no easy solutions to bullying, and am not a fan of zero-tolerance policies in schools.  The topic of bullying comes up periodically, and I have gotten the impression over the years here that my opinion is a minority one.  I really regret how the situation is continually framed so that bullies are bad kids and the bullied are good kids being victimized.  I think this is a very damaging and typically ill-considered one for all of the kids involved, so I apologize in advance if I sound like I'm on a soap-box.   I'll borrow some of the language from my previous posts on the subject, so if this sounds familiar, forgive me. 

First, my opinion is that all kids are incomplete human beings, who are all learning to be happy, healthy and productive adults, any discussion that involves kids needs to consider the welfare of ALL of the kids, which includes the bullies.   It's perfectly understandable that we only tend to advocate for the kids we're connected to (our own or those whom we coach.)  I think it's important that we all remember that schools have a responsibility to advocate for all of the children, not just ours.  And it's possible (or probable) that the kid we think is a little angel, isn't. And conversely, the kid we believe is the devil also isn't.   All kids are on some kind of a spectrum of dysfunction.  They are unfinished adults.  If they exercised good judgment and sound decision making skills, we'd be kicking them out of the house at 12 and not 18 (or 20 or maybe even 30).  

Also, kids bully each other in many ways, and if they don't have the proper tools to deal with conflict in a healthy way, they will learn to survive in an unhealthy way, which is what we generally define as bullying. But, it's not just physical. There are kids who bully others intellectually and emotionally. While a physical altercation may SEEM pretty clear cut, the kid who appears to be the bully may be the victim, who is standing up to a bully.    Point is, sometimes, the "scrawny" kid who is punched in the nose is the bully, not the victim.  The big, strong kid might be the victim.  This is true now more than ever.

While we all have an understandable tendency to believe our kids' versions of stories without a lot of analysis, my experience has been that most fights go both ways.    When you put a bunch of kids together, there are countless interactions that are completely unobserved and it's difficult when your own kid is involved, to remain objective. The unfortunate consequence, however, is that you might be reinforcing negative behaviors in your kid.

So, once again, I'll recommend to the OP that you focus on building skills.  Consider your role to be the same as a baseball coach or a guitar instructor.  Give the child a safe place to learn something and be a part of a group where he can be himself and let his guard down a little.  Give him some unqualified support, along with realistic, appropriate feedback so that he starts to develop some self confidence and resilience.

Anything more than this, I would recommend you avoid unless it's in your lane and you're asked to do so by the parents.


----------



## oftheherd1

Steve said:


> I agree with @Langenschwert that there are no easy solutions to bullying, and am not a fan of zero-tolerance policies in schools.  The topic of bullying comes up periodically, and I have gotten the impression over the years here that my opinion is a minority one.  I really regret how the situation is continually framed so that bullies are bad kids and the bullied are good kids being victimized.  I think this is a very damaging and typically ill-considered one for all of the kids involved, so I apologize in advance if I sound like I'm on a soap-box.   I'll borrow some of the language from my previous posts on the subject, so if this sounds familiar, forgive me.
> 
> First, my opinion is that all kids are incomplete human beings, who are all learning to be happy, healthy and productive adults, any discussion that involves kids needs to consider the welfare of ALL of the kids, which includes the bullies.   It's perfectly understandable that we only tend to advocate for the kids we're connected to (our own or those whom we coach.)  I think it's important that we all remember that schools have a responsibility to advocate for all of the children, not just ours.  And it's possible (or probable) that the kid we think is a little angel, isn't. And conversely, the kid we believe is the devil also isn't.   *All kids are on some kind of a spectrum of dysfunction.*  They are unfinished adults.  If they exercised good judgment and sound decision making skills, we'd be kicking them out of the house at 12 and not 18 (or 20 or maybe even 30).
> 
> Also, kids bully each other in many ways, and if they don't have the proper tools to deal with conflict in a healthy way, they will learn to survive in an unhealthy way, which is what we generally define as bullying. But, it's not just physical. There are kids who bully others intellectually and emotionally. While a physical altercation may SEEM pretty clear cut, the kid who appears to be the bully may be the victim, who is standing up to a bully.    Point is, sometimes, the "scrawny" kid who is punched in the nose is the bully, not the victim.  The big, strong kid might be the victim.  This is true now more than ever.
> 
> While we all have an understandable tendency to believe our kids' versions of stories without a lot of analysis, my experience has been that most fights go both ways.    When you put a bunch of kids together, there are countless interactions that are completely unobserved and it's difficult when your own kid is involved, to remain objective. The unfortunate consequence, however, is that you might be reinforcing negative behaviors in your kid.
> 
> So, once again, I'll recommend to the OP that you focus on building skills.  Consider your role to be the same as a baseball coach or a guitar instructor.  Give the child a safe place to learn something and be a part of a group where he can be himself and let his guard down a little.  Give him some unqualified support, along with realistic, appropriate feedback so that he starts to develop some self confidence and resilience.
> 
> Anything more than this, I would recommend you avoid unless it's in your lane and you're asked to do so by the parents.



I didn't have a lot of disagreement except for the* bolded and underlined* part.  On what part of what curve do you place all kids?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> I didn't have a lot of disagreement except for the* bolded and underlined* part.  On what part of what curve do you place all kids?


I thought that was the least controversial part of Steve's post. All kids (and all adults, for that matter) have some type of dysfunction.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> I didn't have a lot of disagreement except for the* bolded and underlined* part.  On what part of what curve do you place all kids?


I understand.  I was speaking a bit tongue in cheek there.  I apologize if that didn't come through clearly.  What I really mean is that kids are all still learning the communication skills they will need as adults, and even then, speaking from my experience training adults to lead others, most are working on their communication skills forever.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I thought that was the least controversial part of Steve's post. All kids (and all adults, for that matter) have some type of dysfunction.


Controversial?  Moi?


----------



## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> I thought that was the least controversial part of Steve's post. All kids (and all adults, for that matter) have some type of dysfunction.



I hope you are speaking a bit tongue in cheek too, and I am missing it due to my own lack of good communication skills.  



Steve said:


> I understand.  I was speaking a bit tongue in cheek there.  I apologize if that didn't come through clearly.  What I really mean is that kids are all still learning the communication skills they will need as adults, and even then, speaking from my experience training adults to lead others, most are working on their communication skills forever.



OK.  I can relate to that.  I am still working on my communication skills as well.

My biggest problem seems to be that as I have gotten older, I don't suffer fools like I used to.   

Present company accepted of course.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> I hope you are speaking a bit tongue in cheek too, and I am missing it due to my own lack of good communication skills.
> 
> 
> 
> OK.  I can relate to that.  I am still working on my communication skills as well.
> 
> My biggest problem seems to be that as I have gotten older, I don't suffer fools like I used to.
> 
> Present company accepted of course.


No prob....  hey!!!!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> I hope you are speaking a bit tongue in cheek too, and I am missing it due to my own lack of good communication skills.
> 
> 
> 
> OK.  I can relate to that.  I am still working on my communication skills as well.
> 
> My biggest problem seems to be that as I have gotten older, I don't suffer fools like I used to.
> 
> Present company accepted of course.


Nothing tongue-in-cheek in my post. We all have places where we don't function well - that's all "dysfunction" means.


----------



## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> Nothing tongue-in-cheek in my post. We all have places where we don't function well - that's all "dysfunction" means.



Somehow, in my mind, dysfunction carries a negative connotation implying a more serious condition than things we may not be good at but don't really affect us.  That is how I took your meaning; some serious flaw in our makeup that affects us in a strong negative way, and probably those around is as well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> Somehow, in my mind, dysfunction carries a negative connotation implying a more serious condition than things we may not be good at but don't really affect us.  That is how I took your meaning; some serious flaw in our makeup that affects us in a strong negative way, and probably those around is as well.


I can see that. In my work in business, the word gets used a lot simply to refer to where a process, person, team, whatever isn't working properly - whether it creates a problem or not.


----------



## Tez3

oftheherd1 said:


> Somehow, in my mind, dysfunction carries a negative connotation implying a more serious condition than things we may not be good at but don't really affect us.  That is how I took your meaning; some serious flaw in our makeup that affects us in a strong negative way, and probably those around is as well.



That's generally how 'dysfunctional' is used here, it's very negative.



gpseymour said:


> In my work in business, the word gets used a lot simply to refer to where a process, person, team, whatever isn't working properly - whether it creates a problem or not.



We just say it's knackered. Covers most things and is easily understood.


----------



## lklawson

gpseymour said:


> I can see that. In my work in business, the word gets used a lot simply to refer to where a process, person, team, whatever isn't working properly - whether it creates a problem or not.


She Who Must Be Obeyed is in the mental health field.  She likes to say that "normal is just a setting on the dryer."  I.E., everyone has some sort of emotional trauma in their life which impacts them to a greater or lesser degree.  For some people it is a something that affects them so much that it creates a problem for them somehow in their lives.  Others can, more or less, "manage" the emotional trauma.  But, according to her, pretty much by the time adulthood is reached everyone has some sort of trauma.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Langenschwert

Steve said:


> I understand.  I was speaking a bit tongue in cheek there.  I apologize if that didn't come through clearly.  What I really mean is that kids are all still learning the communication skills they will need as adults, and even then, speaking from my experience training adults to lead others, most are working on their communication skills forever.



Unfortunately, a lot of people work on their bullying skills forever too.


----------



## oftheherd1

lklawson said:


> *She Who Must Be Obeyed* is in the mental health field.  She likes to say that "normal is just a setting on the dryer."  I.E., everyone has some sort of emotional trauma in their life which impacts them to a greater or lesser degree.  For some people it is a something that affects them so much that it creates a problem for them somehow in their lives.  Others can, more or less, "manage" the emotional trauma.  But, according to her, pretty much by the time adulthood is reached everyone has some sort of trauma.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



The last time I was in Korea, back in the mid-80s, I used to watch that program very early Sunday mornings on AFKN (Armed Forces Korea Network).  I didn't care for it at first, but it was all that was available.  As time went by it grew on me and I liked it.  Too bad it isn't in syndication here in the USA.


----------



## lklawson

oftheherd1 said:


> The last time I was in Korea, back in the mid-80s, I used to watch that program very early Sunday mornings on AFKN (Armed Forces Korea Network).  I didn't care for it at first, but it was all that was available.  As time went by it grew on me and I liked it.  Too bad it isn't in syndication here in the USA.


You have me at a disadvantage, Sir.  I'm not sure what program you are referring to.

I was referencing Haggard's Victorian classic _She_.  The primary antagonist of the late 19th Century book, the imortal "Ayesha," is so beautiful and stunningly seductive that all who see her fall under a spell and can refuse nothing she asks.  The <ahem> "natives" refer to her in the book as She-who-must-be-obeyed, a sort of title.

I'm something of an anachronism in many ways so I refer to my wife as She Who Must Be Obeyed.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## oftheherd1

lklawson said:


> You have me at a disadvantage, Sir.  I'm not sure what program you are referring to.
> 
> I was referencing Haggard's Victorian classic _She_.  The primary antagonist of the late 19th Century book, the imortal "Ayesha," is so beautiful and stunningly seductive that all who see her fall under a spell and can refuse nothing she asks.  The <ahem> "natives" refer to her in the book as She-who-must-be-obeyed, a sort of title.
> 
> I'm something of an anachronism in many ways so I refer to my wife as She Who Must Be Obeyed.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I was referring to a British TV series Rumpole of the Bailey - Wikipedia where the main character was Horace Rumpole.  He always (except around her) referred to his wife as She Who Must Be Obeyed.  Usually just after some misunderstanding/disagreement or other.

EDIT:  I was unaware of the classic She.


----------



## Steve

Langenschwert said:


> Unfortunately, a lot of people work on their bullying skills forever too.


Sort of.  People use skills that they have success with.   I think we actually create bullies sometimes, in spite of our best intentions.   And bullying is largely a perception, particularly in adults.   I think everyone on this forum can think of one or two bullies who post here regularly.   I’d be very surprised if those one or two people were consistent.   Depends on whose team you’re on.


----------



## Tez3

oftheherd1 said:


> I was referring to a British TV series Rumpole of the Bailey - Wikipedia where the main character was Horace Rumpole.  He always (except around her) referred to his wife as She Who Must Be Obeyed.  Usually just after some misunderstanding/disagreement or other.
> 
> EDIT:  I was unaware of the classic She.



Brilliant series written by Sir John Mortimer who had a very interesting life, see if you can read his biography 'A Voyage Round my Father'.  John Mortimer - Wikipedia


----------



## Langenschwert

Steve said:


> Sort of.  People use skills that they have success with.   I think we actually create bullies sometimes, in spite of our best intentions.   And bullying is largely a perception, particularly in adults.   I think everyone on this forum can think of one or two bullies who post here regularly.   I’d be very surprised if those one or two people were consistent.   Depends on whose team you’re on.



And some people are just garbage. I dispute that bullying is a perception. The normalization of that behaviour is what keeps bullies protected, wreaking their havoc on people as they please. The policies enacted by schools embolden bullies. It's like having an injury but not doing physio because it hurts, and the injury fails to heal properly. Likewise dealing with bullies and calling them out on their behaviour is painful and difficult. It requires hard work, which some are adverse to. It requires treating people as individuals, not cogs in the system. Very few schools or HR departments are equipped to deal with it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

oftheherd1 said:


> But I think the bolded part of your post carries its own dangers.


It's less dangerous than letting someone beat you in your face without trying to protect yourself.  This girl was very fortunate that the other girl had weak punches.


----------



## Steve

Langenschwert said:


> And some people are just garbage. I dispute that bullying is a perception. The normalization of that behaviour is what keeps bullies protected, wreaking their havoc on people as they please. The policies enacted by schools embolden bullies. It's like having an injury but not doing physio because it hurts, and the injury fails to heal properly. Likewise dealing with bullies and calling them out on their behaviour is painful and difficult. It requires hard work, which some are adverse to. It requires treating people as individuals, not cogs in the system. Very few schools or HR departments are equipped to deal with it.


I think this would be a great discussion to have over a nice dram of scotch.   I suspect we would agree on far more than otherwise.  It’s clear that, like me, this is a topic you have thought about quite a bit.  

Some people are garbage.   My point is that these people, as adults, are typically not your grade school bullies. And being garbage isn’t the same as being a bully. 

My comment about it being a perception is that as adults, people generally perceive people who oppose them as bullies.  Or people with whom they disagree as bullies.   Particularly if they’re vocal.   I don’t think I’m a bully, but have been called one here.   I consider some of the long time posters here to be bullies, but understand that others do not.  It’s a perception.

This is a tough subject, however, to discuss in writing, because it’s nuanced.  Easy to be misunderstood.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I thought that was the least controversial part of Steve's post. All kids (and all adults, for that matter) have some type of dysfunction.


I ain't got no problem. Who you think your R?   You don't know me.  You don't own me.   Your uncle's cousin is dysfunctional.  I don't know you think you are.  I'm going to come over there and teach you a lesson or 2.   ha ha ha.  ok I'm all better now. I had a 6th grade flash back going on.  So yeah.  Dysfunction lol.

Kids today go through a lot of stuff that I didn't have to go through.  Like a school shooting. When I was young that was just a made up fantasy talk.  The worst thing I saw in any of my schools was a knife. The worst thing I heard about was as student trying to stab a gym coach or someone getting jumped.

To think about stuff like that as a kid would definitely create mental challenges.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> Nothing tongue-in-cheek in my post. We all have places where we don't function well - that's all "dysfunction" means.


 What did I tell you about bubble gum on the tree. Fish socks and turtle jams getting in the way of your ham samich. woof woof.. east side.  lol.  

Yep dysfunction lol.


Wondering how many people try to make sense of all that. lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Langenschwert said:


> And some people are just garbage.


Very true.


----------



## Steve

JowGaWolf said:


> What did I tell you about bubble gum on the tree. Fish socks and turtle jams getting in the way of your ham samich. woof woof.. east side.  lol.
> 
> Yep dysfunction lol.
> 
> 
> Wondering how many people try to make sense of all that. lol.


I just figured it was more Cockney rhyming slang.


----------



## Langenschwert

Steve said:


> I think this would be a great discussion to have over a nice dram of scotch.   I suspect we would agree on far more than otherwise.  It’s clear that, like me, this is a topic you have thought about quite a bit.
> 
> Some people are garbage.   My point is that these people, as adults, are typically not your grade school bullies. And being garbage isn’t the same as being a bully.
> 
> My comment about it being a perception is that as adults, people generally perceive people who oppose them as bullies.  Or people with whom they disagree as bullies.   Particularly if they’re vocal.   I don’t think I’m a bully, but have been called one here.   I consider some of the long time posters here to be bullies, but understand that others do not.  It’s a perception.
> 
> This is a tough subject, however, to discuss in writing, because it’s nuanced.  Easy to be misunderstood.



It is easy to be misunderstood. I wonder how many school bullies end up being grown up ones? I'm curious about that now. 

There is a difference between being assertive and being a bully. Bullying typically involves a power imbalance of some kind, either through hierarchical or physical power, for example a manager, a more popular kid, or a bigger and stronger kid. If the power is equal, then that's a dispute I guess.

I would also posit that if someone is a bully, they are a garbage person. Taking advantage of a weaker person is pretty much the crappiest thing you can do in normal life.

I'm not trying to rustle your jimmies, nor generate more heat than light, FWIW. It's certainly a subject I feel passionately about, having been bullied both as a child and as an adult. I know people who had to hide in dumpsters to avoid getting beaten up after school. 

Here's the thing: I don't care if it's hard to deal with bullies. It is the school's responsibility to ensure a safe, nurturing environment for students. That bullying is so prevalent shows the system has dropped the ball, and failed in their due diligence. I seriously doubt that a typical schoolyard bully is too difficult a problem for those with advanced degrees in education to figure out. If it is, we're done for!


----------



## JowGaWolf

Langenschwert said:


> It is easy to be misunderstood. I wonder how many school bullies end up being grown up ones? I'm curious about that now.
> 
> There is a difference between being assertive and being a bully. Bullying typically involves a power imbalance of some kind, either through hierarchical or physical power, for example a manager, a more popular kid, or a bigger and stronger kid. If the power is equal, then that's a dispute I guess.
> 
> I would also posit that if someone is a bully, they are a garbage person. Taking advantage of a weaker person is pretty much the crappiest thing you can do in normal life.
> 
> I'm not trying to rustle your jimmies, nor generate more heat than light, FWIW. It's certainly a subject I feel passionately about, having been bullied both as a child and as an adult. I know people who had to hide in dumpsters to avoid getting beaten up after school.
> 
> Here's the thing: I don't care if it's hard to deal with bullies. It is the school's responsibility to ensure a safe, nurturing environment for students. That bullying is so prevalent shows the system has dropped the ball, and failed in their due diligence. I seriously doubt that a typical schoolyard bully is too difficult a problem for those with advanced degrees in education to figure out. If it is, we're done for!


I think bullying is a society problem and not a teacher problem. It happens offline and online.  It happens locally and globally.  We see it in politics and in the workplace through workplace dominance behaviors.  Teachers are trained to teach which is why kids train martial arts to help with bullying issues. I personally think that schools should have a martial art curriculum that also includes sparring. I think that would solve a lot of the bullying problems.


----------



## oftheherd1

Langenschwert said:


> It is easy to be misunderstood. *I wonder how many school bullies end up being grown up ones? I'm curious about that now. *



Interesting question.  But not interested to try and look up any possible studies on that.  I suspect as they move into larger and larger 'ponds' they either become worse bullies, or find they aren't as big a fish as they thought. 

QUOTE="Langenschwert, post: 1870008, member: 12678"]There is a difference between being assertive and being a bully. Bullying typically involves a power imbalance of some kind, either through hierarchical or physical power, for example a manager, a more popular kid, or a bigger and stronger kid. If the power is equal, then that's a dispute I guess.

I would also posit that if someone is a bully, they are a garbage person. *Taking advantage of a weaker person is pretty much the crappiest thing you can do in normal life*.[/QUOTE]

I think the bolded part is the key.  Taking advantage on identified weaker people on a consistent basis, for the bully's own gratification by the act.

QUOTE="Langenschwert, post: 1870008, member: 12678"]I'm not trying to rustle your jimmies, nor generate more heat than light, FWIW. It's certainly a subject I feel passionately about, having been bullied both as a child and as an adult. I know people who had to hide in dumpsters to avoid getting beaten up after school.

*Here's the thing: I don't care if it's hard to deal with bullies. It is the school's responsibility to ensure a safe, nurturing environment for students.* That bullying is so prevalent shows the system has dropped the ball, and failed in their due diligence. I seriously doubt that a typical schoolyard bully is too difficult a problem for those with advanced degrees in education to figure out. If it is, we're done for! [/QUOTE]

I agree with the bolded part.  And most schools make an attempt to do so.  I don't agree with "zero tolerance" as the correct attempt.  And as much as I tend to bristle when I hear of that policy, I realize we just don't give them the tools we used to.  Some schools feel lucky if they have a School Resource Officer they can call.  And that person will no doubt be under the scrutiny of many cell phones.  It isn't unheard of that a part of a SRO's intervention will be placed on Youtube; specifically that part that shows physical force being used to control a resisting student.  A student throwing a first punch doesn't always end up there.

Lacking an RSO, or during the time it takes as SRO to get there, should they intervene physically?  What do you think will happen to that teacher?  Can any school system count on every single parent to agree that physical intervention was correct in the first place, never mind done correctly?

Its one of the reasons I couldn't be a teacher in high schools or below.  I used to teach as an adjunct professor.  The classes consisted mostly of military personnel who were giving up some money and free time.  Those are precious things to most people in the military.  They wanted to learn - no disciplinary problems there.


----------



## Steve

Langenschwert said:


> It is easy to be misunderstood. I wonder how many school bullies end up being grown up ones? I'm curious about that now.
> 
> There is a difference between being assertive and being a bully. Bullying typically involves a power imbalance of some kind, either through hierarchical or physical power, for example a manager, a more popular kid, or a bigger and stronger kid. If the power is equal, then that's a dispute I guess.
> 
> I would also posit that if someone is a bully, they are a garbage person. Taking advantage of a weaker person is pretty much the crappiest thing you can do in normal life.
> 
> I'm not trying to rustle your jimmies, nor generate more heat than light, FWIW. It's certainly a subject I feel passionately about, having been bullied both as a child and as an adult. I know people who had to hide in dumpsters to avoid getting beaten up after school.
> 
> Here's the thing: I don't care if it's hard to deal with bullies. It is the school's responsibility to ensure a safe, nurturing environment for students. That bullying is so prevalent shows the system has dropped the ball, and failed in their due diligence. I seriously doubt that a typical schoolyard bully is too difficult a problem for those with advanced degrees in education to figure out. If it is, we're done for!


Dangit.  I lost a long post and have to start over.  Grrr.  Oh well.  It was too wordy anyway.

The gist of what I was saying is that bullying looks very different.  First, I've said before and just to provide context, I see very little difference between a bully and a kid who is being bullied.  In these situations, the kids are as likely to change roles as otherwise.  And I say this as a kid who was bullied relentlessly much like your friends.  Let me try to explain.  First, just a disclaimer.  As I said earlier, this is a nuanced and complex subject.  I'm necessarily simplifying it to try and communicate my point without writing a dissertation.  

Kids sometimes need protection from harm, but the harm they run into now is in the form of guns, drugs and gangs.  These are not bullies.  Bullying in schools now, precisely because of the zero tolerance policies, is social, emotional and intellectual.  The kids who were encouraged to bully in decades gone have been effectively neutralized.  They are no longer able to vent their frustrations (whatever those might be) by physically tormenting other kids.  And, further, these kids are often the victims of bullying now.  They are frustrated because they lack some basic social skills.  They may have trouble reading or have problems at home or whatever.  And other kids, the kids who might once have been bullied, have ascended.  Point is, sure, there may be the quintessential bully somewhere.  That big, dumb jock who stuffs the smaller kid into a locker.  There is also that small kid who is tormenting the big, dumb jock because he has trouble reading or is in a remedial math class.  It's a much more subtle and often invisible form of bullying, and because kids are often very plugged into the social networks, there can be less opportunity to find safe places to release the pressure.  

With regards to adults, how often do you see physical altercations at work?  How often are employees stuffed into a coat closet by their manager?  I would wager that this is exceedingly rare.  I've been in the business of training, coaching, and counseling managers for over 15 years, and I've never heard of this.  I have worked with a lot of workplace bullies, and it is always social, emotional or intellectual in nature.  Who do you think the workplace bullies are?  I would suggest that they were kids who were either socially, emotionally or intellectually bullying kids in school or who were the victims of bullying.  Either way, they are now in a position of authority and don't know how to manage conflict.

Okay, so, do bullies see themselves as bullies?  Maybe sometimes, but usually, no.  I don't think so, which is what I mean by it being a perception.  Now, I get that it feels crappy and can be very, very toxic to a workplace.  I just think that a manager who is a bully is often just a manager who is very insecure and uncomfortable with conflict.

Last thing and then I'll stop.  Are you familiar with the Thomas Kilmann conflict styles model?  It's been around for a long time and I don't want to dwell on it too much.  In a few words, it's a model that suggests that there are five strategies for dealing with conflict, along two axis (cooperativeness and assertiveness).  It's often misunderstood to suggest that some are good and others are bad (the classic "win-lose" or "win-win" stuff).  In the picture below, there are four.  The fifth is referred to as compromise and would be right in the middle. 

Bullies tend to be at home in the competition style.  They are highly assertive and also highly uncooperative.  I bring this up specifically because there is one phenomenon I have observed over and over and over again.  Literally hundreds of times in my professional career.  A manager who is insecure and uncomfortable with conflict will avoid it inappropriately.  They will fail to address it until it cannot be avoided any longer.  They will ping from very non-assertive and uncooperative to highly assertive and uncooperative.  They will steel themselves for the conflict and will unload on the employee.  I'm sure you can think of examples of this.  It happens all the time.  And the point is that to the person on the receiving end of that, it will feel exactly the same whether the person is a bully or not.  

We can talk about how this manifests in some common workplace bullying behaviors, such as calling employees out, applying unfair standards, moving the goal posts, undermining authority or others, but I hope that this makes sense in this context.  







So, the last thing I will say is to ask how learning to fight is going to help anyone, adult or child, with any of this?  Don't get me wrong.  I think it might, but not because a person is learning to fight.  Maybe the question should be, how is learning a martial art going to help anyone, adult or child, with bullying better than learning to play the tuba in the school marching band, joining the scouts, or playing baseball?


----------



## drop bear

Langenschwert said:


> And some people are just garbage. I dispute that bullying is a perception. The normalization of that behaviour is what keeps bullies protected, wreaking their havoc on people as they please. The policies enacted by schools embolden bullies. It's like having an injury but not doing physio because it hurts, and the injury fails to heal properly. Likewise dealing with bullies and calling them out on their behaviour is painful and difficult. It requires hard work, which some are adverse to. It requires treating people as individuals, not cogs in the system. Very few schools or HR departments are equipped to deal with it.



You can get the same lack of empathy from professional victims.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> A manager who is insecure and uncomfortable with conflict will avoid it inappropriately. They will fail to address it until it cannot be avoided any longer. They will ping from very non-assertive and uncooperative to highly assertive and uncooperative. They will steel themselves for the conflict and will unload on the employee. I'm sure you can think of examples of this. It happens all the time. And the point is that to the person on the receiving end of that, it will feel exactly the same whether the person is a bully or not.



Bouncers who are always duche bags because it is a bit crap to go choking out someone you are friends with.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MA_Student said:


> Frankly there's not much you can do against a gang you try and fight them you'll get your *** kicked badly. Best thing is to avoid or run away



Or you can focus on taking out the leader. When there's a gang of bullies one of them is going to be the leader, usually the biggest and meanest. A would be victim could focus everything on taking out the leader and just totally charge the leader, just like in Christmas Story. When the gang sees their leader being taken down they will lose their morale and most likely back off.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> When the gang sees their leader being taken down they will lose their morale and most likely back off.



More likely they will pile in and beat the bejasus out of you.


----------



## Steve

one thing occurred to me.   I don’t think anyone should have to put up with inappropriate behavior, whether the person is a bully or not.   I hope that is clear.   I’m not trying to suggest that bullying behavior should be accepted.


----------



## Langenschwert

So what reading I could dig up on this say yes, childhood bullies grow up to become adult bullies, and also more likely to engage in criminal behaviour. Interesting. It seems this is something that needs to be nipped in the bud at an early age. It's not like teachers and managers don't know who the bullies are. They just don't have the incentive to do anything about it because it doesn't affect them. Teachers still get paid, managers still get their bonuses.


----------



## Langenschwert

drop bear said:


> You can get the same lack of empathy from professional victims.



I have met precisely one professional victim, but many bullies. Victim blaming is a pernicious habit that we should avoid. It allows those in positions of power to continue to abuse it to the detriment of the rest of us. Schools and corporations need to adopt anti-oppressive practices. About 1 in 3 women report being sexually harassed at work, and 75% report retaliation for reporting it. If that's true, employers don't know the first thing about dealing with abusive behaviour or looking after their staff. The rate of bullying in the workplace is according to one study, 75%. That's shockingly massive. There aren't enough professional victims to make those kinds of numbers. It's bad enough that my province is working on anti-bullying legislation, FWIW. In the UK, it's estimated to cost 18 billion pounds per year, or roughly 10% of a company's profits.


----------



## drop bear

Langenschwert said:


> I have met precisely one professional victim, but many bullies. Victim blaming is a pernicious habit that we should avoid. It allows those in positions of power to continue to abuse it to the detriment of the rest of us. Schools and corporations need to adopt anti-oppressive practices. About 1 in 3 women report being sexually harassed at work, and 75% report retaliation for reporting it. If that's true, employers don't know the first thing about dealing with abusive behaviour or looking after their staff. The rate of bullying in the workplace is according to one study, 75%. That's shockingly massive. There aren't enough professional victims to make those kinds of numbers. It's bad enough that my province is working on anti-bullying legislation, FWIW. In the UK, it's estimated to cost 18 billion pounds per year, or roughly 10% of a company's profits.



Dude I worked twenty years where people would routinely try to punch me in the head.

I am definitely an advocate of preventing workplace bullying.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> one thing occurred to me.   I don’t think anyone should have to put up with inappropriate behavior, whether the person is a bully or not.   I hope that is clear.   I’m not trying to suggest that bullying behavior should be accepted.



Yeah except you kinda do. Otherwise you get the no tolerance policies. Which also don't really work.

The issue is you can't just say bullying is wrong without looking at the people involved. And that is where it gets complicated.

This comes back to this empathy idea.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> More likely they will pile in and beat the bejasus out of you.


Depends on the age.

Adults, absolutely.  But we really wouldn’t call this bullying when it comes to a gang of adults attacking one adult, would we?

Kids, not so much.  Been there, done that (it was a while ago, with me being 41 now).  If 3-4 kids are cornering a single kid, and the single kid goes straight for the “leader,” chances are quite good the others will back off.  The followers are usually there to be entertained and maybe get a few shots in too.  Again, the younger they are, the more this is prevalent.  The older they get, the less so.

Just what I’ve personally been in and what I’ve observed over the years.  I’m no expert in this matter.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> Depends on the age.
> 
> Adults, absolutely.  But we really wouldn’t call this bullying when it comes to a gang of adults attacking one adult, would we?
> 
> Kids, not so much.  Been there, done that (it was a while ago, with me being 41 now).  If 3-4 kids are cornering a single kid, and the single kid goes straight for the “leader,” chances are quite good the others will back off.  The followers are usually there to be entertained and maybe get a few shots in too.  Again, the younger they are, the more this is prevalent.  The older they get, the less so.
> 
> Just what I’ve personally been in and what I’ve observed over the years.  I’m no expert in this matter.



Problem is you can't bank on it just because it's a popular film plotline. I'm not sure the followers are there just to be entertained though, often they are a gang and while there is a leader there are others who will back him/her up. this may be for a couple of reasons, firstly because they are of similar mind-set and secondly because they may be afraid that if they don't they too will be bullied. it's human nature for child to want to be in with the popular crowd or at the very least not be unpopular. there's deeper things going on that just wanting to be entertained. The crowd that forms around a school fight are those usually not in the same class or year as the 'fighters', they may want to be entertained but not the gang itself. The gang like any pack are there to cement their own positions or even move up, if the leader is defeated there will be another waiting to take their place. Sounds Machiavellian but is basic human nature sadly.


----------



## oftheherd1

Langenschwert said:


> So what reading I could dig up on this say yes, childhood bullies grow up to become adult bullies, and also more likely to engage in criminal behaviour. Interesting. It seems this is something that needs to be nipped in the bud at an early age. It's not like teachers and managers don't know who the bullies are. They just don't have the incentive to do anything about it because it doesn't affect them. Teachers still get paid, managers still get their bonuses.



Considering the likely consequences I have mentioned (at least in the USA), what do you expect schools and teachers to do?


----------



## oftheherd1

JR 137 said:


> Depends on the age.
> 
> Adults, absolutely.  But we really wouldn’t call this bullying when it comes to a gang of adults attacking one adult, would we?
> 
> Kids, not so much.  Been there, done that (it was a while ago, with me being 41 now).  If 3-4 kids are cornering a single kid, and the single kid goes straight for the “leader,” chances are quite good the others will back off.  The followers are usually there to be entertained and maybe get a few shots in too.  Again, the younger they are, the more this is prevalent.  The older they get, the less so.
> 
> Just what I’ve personally been in and what I’ve observed over the years.  I’m no expert in this matter.



I think you bring out an interesting point.  What causes a bully to be a bully?  That might help in encouraging a bully to stop being one.


----------



## Tez3

oftheherd1 said:


> Considering the likely consequences I have mentioned (at least in the USA), what do you expect schools and teachers to do?



UK government policy about bullying in school. Bullying at school - GOV.UK

The majority of bullying though now goes on outside school in particular cyber bullying.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> Depends on the age.
> 
> Adults, absolutely.  But we really wouldn’t call this bullying when it comes to a gang of adults attacking one adult, would we?
> 
> Kids, not so much.  Been there, done that (it was a while ago, with me being 41 now).  If 3-4 kids are cornering a single kid, and the single kid goes straight for the “leader,” chances are quite good the others will back off.  The followers are usually there to be entertained and maybe get a few shots in too.  Again, the younger they are, the more this is prevalent.  The older they get, the less so.
> 
> Just what I’ve personally been in and what I’ve observed over the years.  I’m no expert in this matter.


This was my experience growing up, too.


----------



## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> UK government policy about bullying in school. Bullying at school - GOV.UK
> 
> The majority of bullying though now goes on outside school in particular cyber bullying.



I think most schools in the USA have a policy against bullying.  It is a somewhat hot topic, and, as you can see from this thread, emotions play a big part.  The problems as I see it are the supposed solutions.  responding to bullying with violence is probably defense, not engaging in mutual combat.  Yet zero tolerance seems to consider all fights as mutual combat.  That isn't going to solve any problems except that of the school, if it does there.  My personal opinion is that lack of immediate correction, and/or falling back on zero tolerance, is a problem. 

Cyber bullying is also an acknowledged problem in the USA as there have been cases of suicides by victims of that.  Installing a greater sense of self worth might prevent the suicide, but the bullying shouldn't be tolerated either.  It is made worse by the fact whatever the bully starts is echoed by others of the same click, who may or may not be easily identified.  In the USA we are still grappling with this.  The way things have been going it will probably be resolved by telling bullies to please stop doing that and demanding victims stop reading the texts, tweets, etc.  It won't solve anything, but at least people can say they have tried for a solution, wash their hands, and crawl back in their shell.


----------



## Tez3

Zero tolerance policies depend on people actually having zero tolerance, in most places it works but the problem I think is that people are still thinking that school bullying is a simple case of kids going around beating others up for their lunch money. These days it far more than that. There's few 'beatings up' these days and far more psychological bullying.

One thing that has given children and adults 'permission' to bully is politics, here the Brexit stuff has brought some nasty people out from under their stones. The bullying of people different from us is now branded as 'keeping the UK' clean of immigrants and those that are different. Well known people are demand 'them' be got rid of, for 'our' benefit. Anti Semitic crimes have rocketed as has anti Muslim, in fact crimes against immigrants and refugees has rise over all. We are living in a time of great worry for many of us.

Recently we had a series on television where the online trolls/bullies of public figures were tracked down and confronted. These people had used social media to write appalling things to celebrities, one footballer's wife was told they hoped her baby daughter would be raped, she was told she should be gang raped ( followed by a nasty description of how) another Olympic ( Gold medal winner at that) swimmer was told she ought to kill herself for being so ugly. Most was quite awful stuff that I wouldn't want to repeat here. When confronted the trolls/bullies all said they didn't think the person they aimed their abuse at would read what they wrote, that if they did they wouldn't care because it was just 'banter' and 'anyway other people were doing it'!

All thought it was just a laugh, 'banter'... not to be taken seriously. This is a large part of what bullies do. The answers lie in a few directions but nothing will be fixed until we fix our countries' way of dealing with things. I see on FB everyday a political post being made with a good talking point followed by posters screaming abuse of those who disagree. It's horrendous. The 'political situation' of abusing others are carried on at home so children feel it fine to also abuse. The situation is getting worse by the day led by those at the very top of governments.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Zero tolerance policies depend on people actually having zero tolerance, in most places it works


I think you may be using a different connotation of "zero tolerance". Here, it often means "zero tolerance for violence of any kind", so if a bully corners a kid and the kid feels threatened enough to fight back, the victim will be punished (no violence, remember). It can even be worse than that - a bully corners a kid and threatens him, so the kid shoves him away. Since the bully didn't touch the other kid, the victim may be the only one punished.

There's a bad taste for zero-tolerance policies because of the way they are interpreted. Some schools enacted zero-tolerance policies surrounding guns, and kids were suspended for drawing pictures of them.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> More likely they will pile in and beat the bejasus out of you.


My entire perspective on this isn't so much about beating the leader.  It's about hurting one of the people in the group really bad.  If you can get that person to scream in pain then it helps to take the fight out of the other people.  The key factor is that the pain has to cause them to scream.  It's the screaming in pain that makes humans uneasy.

Instinctively when we hear someone screaming in pain, we naturally want to stay away.  We don't naturally run towards the thing that is screaming like they are dying. 
Case in point.  Either that or they really hate this kid.





Most people will continue to fight if no sound is made,  I guess it works like it does with bears.  They say yell and make noise if you come across a bear.  If you hear an animal dying in the bush, then you aren't going to volunteer to see what's eating it.  If you are able to hurt one person enough then it breaks the focus of everyone trying to beat you up.  Now you have an opportunity to redirect their attention to help their friend.   If you can get the person to scream the make up stuff like instantly say "dude you better get your friend to the hospital"  even if you know that your attacker doesn't need to go to one.   So long as you break that focus and redirect it so that it's not on you.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> I think you may be using a different connotation of "zero tolerance".



No, it's exactly the same as yours. The chances of violence in schools though is cut down immensely because we have teachers and teaching assistants in the playgrounds during break and lunchtimes keeping an eye on the students, this cuts down all violence. The children are not left unsupervised in school time. 



JowGaWolf said:


> If you can get that person to scream in pain then it helps to take the fight out of the other people. The key factor is that the pain has to cause them to scream. It's the screaming in pain that makes humans uneasy.



I imagine that is only true in places where people are 'soft', I can't see it working in a lot of areas I know of.



JowGaWolf said:


> Now you have an opportunity to redirect their attention to help their friend.



This assumes they are friends, I won't bet my life on it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> I imagine that is only true in places where people are 'soft', I can't see it working in a lot of areas I know of


If you want to call Baltimore, Maryland soft.  Then I guess it is soft. 



Tez3 said:


> This assumes they are friends, I won't bet my life on it.


When you are getting jumped then assumptions are going to be what you have the most of.  You either try it or you don't.  If it's works, then it saves your butt.  If it doesn't work then you are still in the same bad situation you were in before you tried it.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> Problem is you can't bank on it just because it's a popular film plotline. I'm not sure the followers are there just to be entertained though, often they are a gang and while there is a leader there are others who will back him/her up. this may be for a couple of reasons, firstly because they are of similar mind-set and secondly because they may be afraid that if they don't they too will be bullied. it's human nature for child to want to be in with the popular crowd or at the very least not be unpopular. there's deeper things going on that just wanting to be entertained. The crowd that forms around a school fight are those usually not in the same class or year as the 'fighters', they may want to be entertained but not the gang itself. The gang like any pack are there to cement their own positions or even move up, if the leader is defeated there will be another waiting to take their place. Sounds Machiavellian but is basic human nature sadly.


I was basing it on what I’ve personally seen and been in myself.  No Hollywood.


----------



## Langenschwert

oftheherd1 said:


> Considering the likely consequences I have mentioned (at least in the USA), what do you expect schools and teachers to do?



I wish I had the answer. Then I'd be rich. Perhaps psychological testing for both kids and teachers. You can recognize signs of sociopathic tendencies and work to curb them, generally by being empathic and nuturing before they go on to become horrible people. There is a whole book on the subject by a relative of Charles Manson (?) who is a psychologist. Pretty interesting stuff.


----------



## JR 137

I teach at a small Catholic school.  This must be said...

We get several students every year who came from other schools - public and private, large and small.  They come to our school because they were bullied at their previous school and want a fresh start and be in a small school environment where the teachers and administrators can help stop the bullying far easier.  Sounds like a great idea, right?

They get here, and not much changes. They’re not getting beat up, and it’s not outright, but they’re definitely not problem free.  We do a great job of stopping things before they become a bigger problem though.  Some parents tell us their kids are being bullied, but I’ll address that later.  

They graduate from here (middle school) and move on to high school where again, it starts all over again.

This is going to be unpopular, but please read the whole thing before you judge...

A lot of these kids (NOT ALL) who are being bullied by different people at different places tells me something.  The kids are often doing things that are inviting the behavior.  I’ve seen them follow the kids around that end up bullying them in an attempt to befriend them, but in an extremely annoying “leave me alone” way.  I’ve seen the bullied kids actually start the bullying process by doing underhanded things first.  Sometimes it’s a kid that has poor hygiene.  But I see a ton of kids get bullied because of poor social skills.

I’m not saying they deserve it.  I’m not saying they’re asking for it.  No way, no how.

But what I am saying is they could surely benefit from counseling.  Having a master’s in counseling (although I have no other experience), I could see cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) helping these kids.  If they address the behaviors that are “inviting” (for a lack of a better word right now) bullying, it can be greatly reduced in a lot of cases.  I’m not saying there will be zero bullying, as kids are kids, but it’ll be less so.  I genuinely don’t see how some parents turn a blind eye to why their kid’s getting picked on when the kid is showing up with hair that’s greasy, their clothes are filthy, and they smell like they haven’t showered in weeks.  Even adults keep their distance from other adults who do that, why would Kids not react to that?  They’re reacting inappropriately, but remember they’re kids (that’s not a free pass for their behavior, btw).

Then there’s parents who think their kids can do no wrong.  Everyone’s out to get their kids and them too.  Someone says the wrong thing, and the kid’s being bullied.  When we as teachers watch it and don’t have the emotion of it’s our own kids and actually see the day to day interaction instead of one side, it sometimes becomes obvious that the one complaining about being bullied is actually the aggressor and getting the negative reactions from their peers that they appear to want.  I had a kid in a different school who accused about a dozen different kids at different times of bullying him.  He’d follow someone around and whisper insults into their ear until the other one retaliated.  Then somehow he was being bullied.  After 5 or 6 people, it became painfully obvious who the real problem was.

I know, I’m sure this is going to get taken way out of context.  I just had to get it off my chest.  Again, I’m not saying anyone deserves it.  I’m not saying everyone brings it on themselves.  I’m saying if there’s a pattern, the person needs to look inward as well as outward.  

MA isn’t going to be a cure by any means.  It’ll help some kids, but certainly not any or every kid.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> I teach at a small Catholic school.  This must be said...
> 
> We get several students every year who came from other schools - public and private, large and small.  They come to our school because they were bullied at their previous school and want a fresh start and be in a small school environment where the teachers and administrators can help stop the bullying far easier.  Sounds like a great idea, right?
> 
> They get here, and not much changes. They’re not getting beat up, and it’s not outright, but they’re definitely not problem free.  We do a great job of stopping things before they become a bigger problem though.  Some parents tell us their kids are being bullied, but I’ll address that later.
> 
> They graduate from here (middle school) and move on to high school where again, it starts all over again.
> 
> This is going to be unpopular, but please read the whole thing before you judge...
> 
> A lot of these kids (NOT ALL) who are being bullied by different people at different places tells me something.  The kids are often doing things that are inviting the behavior.  I’ve seen them follow the kids around that end up bullying them in an attempt to befriend them, but in an extremely annoying “leave me alone” way.  I’ve seen the bullied kids actually start the bullying process by doing underhanded things first.  Sometimes it’s a kid that has poor hygiene.  But I see a ton of kids get bullied because of poor social skills.
> 
> I’m not saying they deserve it.  I’m not saying they’re asking for it.  No way, no how.
> 
> But what I am saying is they could surely benefit from counseling.  Having a master’s in counseling (although I have no other experience), I could see cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) helping these kids.  If they address the behaviors that are “inviting” (for a lack of a better word right now) bullying, it can be greatly reduced in a lot of cases.  I’m not saying there will be zero bullying, as kids are kids, but it’ll be less so.  I genuinely don’t see how some parents turn a blind eye to why their kid’s getting picked on when the kid is showing up with hair that’s greasy, their clothes are filthy, and they smell like they haven’t showered in weeks.  Even adults keep their distance from other adults who do that, why would Kids not react to that?  They’re reacting inappropriately, but remember they’re kids (that’s not a free pass for their behavior, btw).
> 
> Then there’s parents who think their kids can do no wrong.  Everyone’s out to get their kids and them too.  Someone says the wrong thing, and the kid’s being bullied.  When we as teachers watch it and don’t have the emotion of it’s our own kids and actually see the day to day interaction instead of one side, it sometimes becomes obvious that the one complaining about being bullied is actually the aggressor and getting the negative reactions from their peers that they appear to want.  I had a kid in a different school who accused about a dozen different kids at different times of bullying him.  He’d follow someone around and whisper insults into their ear until the other one retaliated.  Then somehow he was being bullied.  After 5 or 6 people, it became painfully obvious who the real problem was.
> 
> I know, I’m sure this is going to get taken way out of context.  I just had to get it off my chest.  Again, I’m not saying anyone deserves it.  I’m not saying everyone brings it on themselves.  I’m saying if there’s a pattern, the person needs to look inward as well as outward.
> 
> MA isn’t going to be a cure by any means.  It’ll help some kids, but certainly not any or every kid.


I was bullied across three schools (starting, coincidentally, at a small Catholic school). As you point out, that's not mere coincidence. I was a "good victim" - shy, conflict-avoidant, awkward, quiet, small, and afraid of people (people don't believe me about most of those things now).


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> If you want to call Baltimore, Maryland soft. Then I guess it is soft.



All towns and cities have areas where people are softer than others, cities and many towns also have areas where people are hard.



JR 137 said:


> I’m saying if there’s a pattern, the person needs to look inward as well as outward.



Your comments are certainly valid of course but what happens when the bullying happens because you have a different coloured skin, a different faith, have a disability or come from another country? _There is a pattern when people like this are bullied and it's not their fault._ Children tried to bully me for being Jewish and being English (in Scotland), I've had a few adults try as well but I dealt with them all and did not get bullied. 



JR 137 said:


> I genuinely don’t see how some parents turn a blind eye to why their kid’s getting picked on when the kid is showing up with hair that’s greasy, their clothes are filthy, and they smell like they haven’t showered in weeks.



Bad parenting.



JR 137 said:


> it sometimes becomes obvious that the one complaining about being bullied is actually the aggressor and getting the negative reactions from their peers that they appear to want.



When my daughter was at secondary school a disabled girl kept complaining my daughter was bullying her,  said she picked on her etc. My daughter denied it and I knew she was telling the truth. This went on for a while making my daughter more reluctant than usual to go to school ( it was hard getting her to go at the best of times, she preferred to go to the stables) anyway one day this girl went crying to the teachers that my daughter had assaulted her, the headmaster sent for my daughter to have it out only my daughter wasn't at school that day, hadn't been there all week.  That sorted that out! My daughter still didn't like school and in fact being at the stables meant she'd passed all her British Horse Society's exams, was an assistant riding instructor and ran her own business schooling horses and riding horses that had been injured who needed a light rider at 13. She went onto a good job in horse racing and and still in the industry, is in an extremely well paid job now. Not sure what the moral of that story is lol. She is also known for punching out a stable lad who was trying to bully another because she has always hated bullies and will absolutely stand up to them.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> I was a "good victim" - shy, conflict-avoidant, awkward, quiet, small, and afraid of people (people don't believe me about most of those things now).



I wasn't and still they tried. I was confident, I stood up for myself and my father was teaching me to box as soon as I could stand and make a fist. Being different means people want to put you down, there's still plenty of it around. I'm not unaware of a recent march in the US where they were shouting about the Jews. Anti-Semitic attacks hit record high in UK


----------



## MA_Student

PhotonGuy said:


> Or you can focus on taking out the leader. When there's a gang of bullies one of them is going to be the leader, usually the biggest and meanest. A would be victim could focus everything on taking out the leader and just totally charge the leader, just like in Christmas Story. When the gang sees their leader being taken down they will lose their morale and most likely back off.


Or they get pissed off their friend just got beaten then they beat you even worse


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> All towns and cities have areas where people are softer than others, cities and many towns also have areas where people are hard.
> 
> 
> 
> Your comments are certainly valid of course but what happens when the bullying happens because you have a different coloured skin, a different faith, have a disability or come from another country? _There is a pattern when people like this are bullied and it's not their fault._ Children tried to bully me for being Jewish and being English (in Scotland), I've had a few adults try as well but I dealt with them all and did not get bullied.
> 
> 
> 
> Bad parenting.
> 
> 
> 
> When my daughter was at secondary school a disabled girl kept complaining my daughter was bullying her,  said she picked on her etc. My daughter denied it and I knew she was telling the truth. This went on for a while making my daughter more reluctant than usual to go to school ( it was hard getting her to go at the best of times, she preferred to go to the stables) anyway one day this girl went crying to the teachers that my daughter had assaulted her, the headmaster sent for my daughter to have it out only my daughter wasn't at school that day, hadn't been there all week.  That sorted that out! My daughter still didn't like school and in fact being at the stables meant she'd passed all her British Horse Society's exams, was an assistant riding instructor and ran her own business schooling horses and riding horses that had been injured who needed a light rider at 13. She went onto a good job in horse racing and and still in the industry, is in an extremely well paid job now. Not sure what the moral of that story is lol. She is also known for punching out a stable lad who was trying to bully another because she has always hated bullies and will absolutely stand up to them.


I can’t do multiple quotes from my iPhone...

People get “bullied” for all sorts of reasons, and none of them are valid.  I can’t list every reason why, such as the ones you listed.  No matter what, people are going to get bullied.  Having an ethnic Armenian name in school didn’t do me any favors.  It was made fun of my first day of kindergarten (and I was first alphabetically  ).  I still get it occasionally at 41, but it doesn’t bother me at all, unless of course someone’s being a straight up wanker (in your language  ) about it.

There’s a difference between kids teasing each other and bullying each other.  Somehow people confuse the two and jump straight into “I’m being bullied!” or “my kid’s being bullied!”  I think people play that bully card a bit too much.  I have kids come to me saying they’re being bullied.  I ask what happened, they tell me someone made fun of them.  I ask how long it’s been going on for, and they tell me it was only this time.  Really?  One person makes a stupid joke one time and now they’re bullying you?  I could see if it was a threat or racial or something else serious, but that’s not what happened.  I hear the word bullying so many times that I just turn a deaf ear to it.  There’s a textbook definition to it that I understand and agree with; too many people don’t know it and assume any time someone looks at them the wrong way, they’re being bullied.

Regarding bad parenting...

My wife teaches a 9 grade self contained special education class.  Her kids are emotionally disturbed.  There’s a girl in her class who literally smells like urine every day.  And more often that not smells like feces too.  It’s so bad that it’ll make your eyes water.  The kid is constantly harassed about it.  The kids refuse to sit anywhere near her and constantly openly complain.  And you know what?  They’re right.  It’s that bad.  My wife has to bleach wipe her chair and desk when she (and the others) leaves the room.

Then the parent repeatedly complains to my wife and the administration that her kid is being bullied.  Yet she refuses to make her clean herself.  The administration, school psychologists, the school nurse, and even child protective services have told the mother she needs to make her kid bathe.  In one ear and out the other, yet the bullying complaints keep coming and she’s even threatened legal action (although everyone knows she doesn’t have a leg to stand on).  Everyone genuinely does everything they can to keep her from being targeted.  

And she wonders why the kid gets treated that way.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> There’s a difference between kids teasing each other and bullying each other. Somehow people confuse the two and jump straight into “I’m being bullied!” or “my kid’s being bullied!” I think people play that bully card a bit too much. I have kids come to me saying they’re being bullied. I ask what happened, they tell me someone made fun of them. I ask how long it’s been going on for, and they tell me it was only this time. Really? One person makes a stupid joke one time and now they’re bullying you? I could see if it was a threat or racial or something else serious, but that’s not what happened. I hear the word bullying so many times that I just turn a deaf ear to it. There’s a textbook definition to it that I understand and agree with; too many people don’t know it and assume any time someone looks at them the wrong way, they’re being bullied.



Do you understand how hurtful it is for many especially children to be made fun of? You make not think it's bullying but in many ways it's worse than being hit. To be laughed it is horrendous for a child, it's more damaging than a bruise. It can make a child curl up and want to die, yes even if it's only once.  Children want to be accepted, to be liked and loved, they want approval not just form adults but from their peers, to have someone mock and humiliate you destroys the inner child, it rips them up inside. 

To you, as an adult, it's just a stupid joke but a 'stupid joke' that is aimed at your weakest point, your Achilles heel will certainly hurt. I've seen grown men attack each other over a 'stupid joke'. don't ever think words can't hurt more than blows. No one should be humiliated. I daresay you will come back and say they need to grow a thicker skin, but this is what I was saying about 'banter', it's not 'banter' it is actually bullying, it's inappropriate behaviour. If you are turning a deaf ear when a child has been humiliated by being laughed at, then you aren't doing your job. You are dismissing others concerns because it doesn't affect you so you think it should affect them, it's only 'banter'. I know someone will post that we have become too PC and that people need to get a sense of humour. It's inevitable. 

Depending on the age of the child 'jokes' and banter can easily become sexual as they move into adolescent. We had a recent talk about this at Guides and I can confirm the girls experiences of 'jokes and 'banter' are ones of hurt and frankly nastiness. 

*"When banter isn’t banter*
_"The thing about banter is, it’s only funny if both parties find it funny. That seems like an obvious thing to say but young people will often confuse banter with abuse because they believe the person to be their close friend. However, if that child is offended by, or feels uncomfortable with something that is said to them, then it most certainly isn’t banter; it’s effectively bullying. If someone says “don’t be upset, it’s just a bit of banter”, it isn’t banter."
_
From here. Abuse or banter? – Sexual harrassment and abuse at school


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I think you may be using a different connotation of "zero tolerance". Here, it often means "zero tolerance for violence of any kind", so if a bully corners a kid and the kid feels threatened enough to fight back, the victim will be punished (no violence, remember). It can even be worse than that - a bully corners a kid and threatens him, so the kid shoves him away. Since the bully didn't touch the other kid, the victim may be the only one punished.
> 
> There's a bad taste for zero-tolerance policies because of the way they are interpreted. Some schools enacted zero-tolerance policies surrounding guns, and kids were suspended for drawing pictures of them.



Yeah the casey haynes saga.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> All towns and cities have areas where people are softer than others, cities and many towns also have areas where people are hard.


 The thing is, that I didn't live in nor work in those "softer areas" when I lived in Baltimore.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> The thing is, that I didn't live in nor work in those "softer areas" when I lived in Baltimore.



Some cities hard areas are other's soft ones. Few men like to think of themselves as softer than others, most men like to think of themselves as being able to defend themselves but there are those who are beyond hard. These are the ones who don't care about consequences either to themselves or others. There is nothing you can do to scare them, they have no fear simply because they don't care. I know two people like this and know of several more.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> Do you understand how hurtful it is for many especially children to be made fun of? You make not think it's bullying but in many ways it's worse than being hit. To be laughed it is horrendous for a child, it's more damaging than a bruise. It can make a child curl up and want to die, yes even if it's only once.  Children want to be accepted, to be liked and loved, they want approval not just form adults but from their peers, to have someone mock and humiliate you destroys the inner child, it rips them up inside.
> 
> To you, as an adult, it's just a stupid joke but a 'stupid joke' that is aimed at your weakest point, your Achilles heel will certainly hurt. I've seen grown men attack each other over a 'stupid joke'. don't ever think words can't hurt more than blows. No one should be humiliated. I daresay you will come back and say they need to grow a thicker skin, but this is what I was saying about 'banter', it's not 'banter' it is actually bullying, it's inappropriate behaviour. If you are turning a deaf ear when a child has been humiliated by being laughed at, then you aren't doing your job. You are dismissing others concerns because it doesn't affect you so you think it should affect them, it's only 'banter'. I know someone will post that we have become too PC and that people need to get a sense of humour. It's inevitable.
> 
> Depending on the age of the child 'jokes' and banter can easily become sexual as they move into adolescent. We had a recent talk about this at Guides and I can confirm the girls experiences of 'jokes and 'banter' are ones of hurt and frankly nastiness.
> 
> *"When banter isn’t banter*
> _"The thing about banter is, it’s only funny if both parties find it funny. That seems like an obvious thing to say but young people will often confuse banter with abuse because they believe the person to be their close friend. However, if that child is offended by, or feels uncomfortable with something that is said to them, then it most certainly isn’t banter; it’s effectively bullying. If someone says “don’t be upset, it’s just a bit of banter”, it isn’t banter."
> _
> From here. Abuse or banter? – Sexual harrassment and abuse at school


Please don’t tell me I’m not doing my job.  You have no idea what I dismiss and what I don’t dismiss.  I don’t let anyone get away with humiliating someone.

And you can dare say I think they need thicker skin.  Again, you have zero idea what I’m referring to as a stupid joke.  Trust me, I’m very strict with my students.  Some might say I’m a bit too strict when it comes to how they treat each other.  

And you missed my point; I don’t ignore a complaint, but I’m just so sick of everyone thinking everything is bullying.  A 12 year old making a stupid joke one time isn’t bullying.  Just because I’m tired of hearing it called bullying doesn’t mean I think it’s ok.  I address it and explain why he/she shouldn’t say it again and make him/her apologize.  Everyone says stupid things every now and then.  That’s not a bully, that’s someone who made a mistake.

If it continues, then you can use a bullying card.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

It's interesting to me how much someone will try to diminish another posters abilities, morals, experiences, or perception of their perceptions, rather than accepting that those people may have valid points that don't fall in line with (or contradict) one's own beliefs.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Some cities hard areas are other's soft ones. Few men like to think of themselves as softer than others, most men like to think of themselves as being able to defend themselves but there are those who are beyond hard. These are the ones who don't care about consequences either to themselves or others. There is nothing you can do to scare them, they have no fear simply because they don't care. I know two people like this and know of several more.


Baltimore's hard areas are just that. There are areas around there where stopping your car on the wrong corner is dangerous.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Some cities hard areas are other's soft ones. Few men like to think of themselves as softer than others, most men like to think of themselves as being able to defend themselves but there are those who are beyond hard. These are the ones who don't care about consequences either to themselves or others. There is nothing you can do to scare them, they have no fear simply because they don't care. I know two people like this and know of several more.


That is true. But you won't know which is which unless you know them personally.  As tough as thugs can be there are very few that fit your description in comparison to those who aren't fearless.  Most stand tall in a group, but not as willing as an individuals.  Which is why they run around in groups in the first place.  It's the guys at the top that are dangerous because they can't afford to be seen as being weak.  As a result they will commit any type of violence to keep the power and intimidation that they have.  People like that you can beat in a fight only to have them hunt you down later that week to kill you.  But again you won't know if a person is like that until it's too late.  The only thing I was certain of back then was that I had to be willing to be just as brutal if that was my only chance to survive.

I went to the police and they pretty much told me the same thing.  One officer said to me "There's nothing I can do for you. Do what you need in order to protect yourself."

That street life is no joke.  I'm just glad I didn't have to grow up in it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

JR 137 said:


> Please don’t tell me I’m not doing my job.  You have no idea what I dismiss and what I don’t dismiss.  I don’t let anyone get away with humiliating someone.
> 
> And you can dare say I think they need thicker skin.  Again, you have zero idea what I’m referring to as a stupid joke.  Trust me, I’m very strict with my students.  Some might say I’m a bit too strict when it comes to how they treat each other.
> 
> And you missed my point; I don’t ignore a complaint, but I’m just so sick of everyone thinking everything is bullying.  A 12 year old making a stupid joke one time isn’t bullying.  Just because I’m tired of hearing it called bullying doesn’t mean I think it’s ok.  I address it and explain why he/she shouldn’t say it again and make him/her apologize.  Everyone says stupid things every now and then.  That’s not a bully, that’s someone who made a mistake.
> 
> If it continues, then you can use a bullying card.


I feel the same way about bullying being something that happens regularly.  As a teen I was often harassed.  I can't call it bullying because it was never the same person and it always stopped when I confronted the person harassing me.  

Had I not confronted those kids early on then it would have definitely turned into bullying. 
Sometimes kids say and do mean things without the intent to make it a daily ritual of making someone's life miserable.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> Please don’t tell me I’m not doing my job. You have no idea what I dismiss and what I don’t dismiss. I don’t let anyone get away with humiliating someone.



I'm not. I am going entirely on what you posted before and nothing else.
You made a point of saying that you don't think a joke is bullying, I pointed out that many 'jokes' in fact aren't and they hurt. You cannot deny that. I went on to expand on that, ig you think that is getting at you  are mistaken. You posted up something you yourself said was contentious, it's your ideas, others have their ideas as well, if you are going to attack me thinking I was making a personal attack on you for having my ideas then there can be no conversation and it shows you just wanted to post up your thoughts with no one commenting on them.



gpseymour said:


> Baltimore's hard areas are just that. There are areas around there where stopping your car on the wrong corner is dangerous



I'm sure it is but if I can't expand on what I said earlier there's little point in discussion. Around where I live there are some who think they are hard but would be eaten alive by those further up the road in Newcastle.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> I feel the same way about bullying being something that happens regularly.  As a teen I was often harassed.  I can't call it bullying because it was never the same person and it always stopped when I confronted the person harassing me.
> 
> Had I not confronted those kids early on then it would have definitely turned into bullying.
> Sometimes kids say and do mean things without the intent to make it a daily ritual of making someone's life miserable.


Agreed. Bullying is another of those terms with no clear boundary, but I'd be hard-pressed to call most single incidents bullying. Some are - the target just shut them down or there was only the one opportunity - but most are just kids being bad at relating to each other. And even some repeated incidents don't become bullying. Like other things, it depends how it's received. There are things I (as that shy, scared-of-people child) found disturbing that other children shrugged off without a thought. So mean kids ("bullies") did more of those things to me than to others. They did them to others as a matter of course, but to me specifically to bully, because of how I reacted to them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I'm sure it is but if I can't expand on what I said earlier there's little point in discussion. Around where I live there are some who think they are hard but would be eaten alive by those further up the road in Newcastle.


I was just clarifying for you, since there's no reason you'd be familiar with that area.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MA_Student said:


> Or they get pissed off their friend just got beaten then they beat you even worse


And what do you back this claim up with? Strategies in the martial arts that deal with group attacks often focus on taking out the leader.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

PhotonGuy said:


> And what do you back this claim up with? Strategies in the martial arts that deal with group attacks often focus on taking out the leader.


A strategy (even a universal one) doesn't define truth. Some groups will likely react each way. I haven't dealt enough with groups (none as an adult) to know what the likelihood is. I know some groups will back off if the leader is taken down (I experienced that many times growing up). Them not backing down is the other major possibility.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Some cities hard areas are other's soft ones. Few men like to think of themselves as softer than others, most men like to think of themselves as being able to defend themselves but there are those who are beyond hard. These are the ones who don't care about consequences either to themselves or others. There is nothing you can do to scare them, they have no fear simply because they don't care. I know two people like this and know of several more.


Don't get me wrong.  I'm not trying to act like I'm tough by sharing my experiences.  I was glad to move out of Baltimore.  I may have different thoughts had I lived in a nicer community. There's one community that's on the outer edges of Baltimore that was really nice and rich.  It w


PhotonGuy said:


> And what do you back this claim up with? Strategies in the martial arts that deal with group attacks often focus on taking out the leader.


I would be careful about focusing too much on the leader for dealing with a group attack.  A pack of equals will make it almost impossible to identify a leader if one exists at all.  Groups like this are highly functional and dangerous. They also tend to have a goal that isn't dependent on a leader.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> I would be careful about focusing too much on the leader for dealing with a group attack.  A pack of equals will make it almost impossible to identify a leader if one exists at all.  Groups like this are highly functional and dangerous. They also tend to have a goal that isn't dependent on a leader.


And that's proably the difference between a gang and a group (my terms). A group will have a leader - they're bullying because the leader is bullying. A gang has a mutual purpose, and may be harder to find a leader in.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> And what do you back this claim up with? Strategies in the martial arts that deal with group attacks often focus on taking out the leader.



Only a couple do that I know of, dealing with multiple attackers, *who all attack at the same time,* is more often taught. Do you actually think that they will stand around and let you take one of them out, perhaps then they will all come at you one by one as they do in the films?

I have done a lot of riot training, even had to use it but we don't focus on the 'leader' there's snatch squads for that, obviously you won't have that luxury so focussing on the 'leaders', once you know who they are is something you are unlikely to be able to do. 

Quite a few years ago two soldiers in Northern Ireland were beaten to death by a mob, nothing helped. BBC - History - Troubles - Army corporals killed at IRA funeral


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Only a couple do that I know of, dealing with multiple attackers, *who all attack at the same time,* is more often taught. Do you actually think that they will stand around and let you take one of them out, perhaps then they will all come at you one by one as they do in the films?
> 
> I have done a lot of riot training, even had to use it but we don't focus on the 'leader' there's snatch squads for that, obviously you won't have that luxury so focussing on the 'leaders', once you know who they are is something you are unlikely to be able to do.
> 
> Quite a few years ago two soldiers in Northern Ireland were beaten to death by a mob, nothing helped. BBC - History - Troubles - Army corporals killed at IRA funeral


A mob would be the worst. I would rather face a gang than a mob.  A mob runs off collective emotions anger, revenge, cruelty, rightousness, anarchy, and any other emotion that you can find.  Throw all of that into a bag of fire ants, killer bees, and bullet ants, then shake the bag up and stick your hand in it. That's what a mob will be like.


----------



## MA_Student

PhotonGuy said:


> And what do you back this claim up with? Strategies in the martial arts that deal with group attacks often focus on taking out the leader.


So what? Doesn't mean they work


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> A mob would be the worst. I would rather face a gang than a mob.  A mob runs off collective emotions anger, revenge, cruelty, rightousness, anarchy, and any other emotion that you can find.  Throw all of that into a bag of fire ants, killer bees, and bullet ants, then shake the bag up and stick your hand in it. That's what a mob will be like.



The strange thing was that the ones we had the most bother with were the peace protestors!

You may have heard of the Greenham Common peace camps, they were camped outside the RAF base that the USAF used to keep their Cruise missiles. They said they were peaceful but really weren't, they'd try to cut the fence and 'invade' the camp, they cut off with bold cutters one policeman's finger when he tried to stop them. They would rush the police and when you tried to stop them would actually fight back, they'd kick, bite, scratch, scream rape and go for your eyes. Nasty dealing with them because they'd film you but not them! To this day they are thought of as heroines for peace!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Only a couple do that I know of, dealing with multiple attackers, *who all attack at the same time,* is more often taught. Do you actually think that they will stand around and let you take one of them out, perhaps then they will all come at you one by one as they do in the films?
> 
> I have done a lot of riot training, even had to use it but we don't focus on the 'leader' there's snatch squads for that, obviously you won't have that luxury so focussing on the 'leaders', once you know who they are is something you are unlikely to be able to do.
> 
> Quite a few years ago two soldiers in Northern Ireland were beaten to death by a mob, nothing helped. BBC - History - Troubles - Army corporals killed at IRA funeral


The idea of focusing on the leader is usually more about what to do when you're sure you can't get away, but they haven't attacked yet.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> The idea of focusing on the leader is usually more about what to do when you're sure you can't get away, but they haven't attacked yet.



I know.


----------



## PhotonGuy

JowGaWolf said:


> I would be careful about focusing too much on the leader for dealing with a group attack.  A pack of equals will make it almost impossible to identify a leader if one exists at all.  Groups like this are highly functional and dangerous. They also tend to have a goal that isn't dependent on a leader.


Even with groups that don't have an official leader there is always somebody who is most dominant. Whenever theres two or more people one person is always going to be the dominant one. The position might switch, the person who is most dominant at one time might not be most dominant at another time but there is always somebody who is more or less in charge even if they're just slightly in charge.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Even with groups that don't have an official leader there is always somebody who is most dominant. Whenever theres two or more people one person is always going to be the dominant one. The position might switch, the person who is most dominant at one time might not be most dominant at another time but there is always somebody who is more or less in charge even if they're just slightly in charge.



Are you going to take the time though to stand there and work out who you think is in charge? I don't think you can 'slightly in charge' anymore than you can be slightly pregnant or slightly dead. While group dynamics are interesting it's not something you should be thinking about when you are facing a potential mob/gang about to beat you up.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Even with groups that don't have an official leader there is always somebody who is most dominant. Whenever theres two or more people one person is always going to be the dominant one. The position might switch, the person who is most dominant at one time might not be most dominant at another time but there is always somebody who is more or less in charge even if they're just slightly in charge.



I'd really like to know how you expect to determine who this person is while the whole group is kicking your ***.


----------



## JowGaWolf

PhotonGuy said:


> Even with groups that don't have an official leader there is always somebody who is most dominant. Whenever theres two or more people one person is always going to be the dominant one. The position might switch, the person who is most dominant at one time might not be most dominant at another time but there is always somebody who is more or less in charge even if they're just slightly in charge.


No one controls a mob which is why police, military, and government doesn't like them. A mob is one step below anarchy.  They may have people that hype the mob up but they aren't the leader.  In terms of gangs the leader of the gang may not even be present.


----------



## drop bear

PhotonGuy said:


> And what do you back this claim up with? Strategies in the martial arts that deal with group attacks often focus on taking out the leader.



Yeah just ko the leader. If you can hand out ko,s like that bullies wouldn't be a problem anyway.


----------



## drop bear

PhotonGuy said:


> Even with groups that don't have an official leader there is always somebody who is most dominant. Whenever theres two or more people one person is always going to be the dominant one. The position might switch, the person who is most dominant at one time might not be most dominant at another time but there is always somebody who is more or less in charge even if they're just slightly in charge.



Look at a fight on a sports field.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> No one controls a mob which is why police, military, and government doesn't like them. A mob is one step below anarchy.  They may have people that hype the mob up but they aren't the leader.  In terms of gangs the leader of the gang may not even be present.



What controls a mob is the herd mentality, people feel stronger and less inhibited in a mob, they literally can get carried away. Non violent people can become very violent, commit sexual assault and rape, riot and loot in a mob whereas individually they would never dream of doing such things. Mob Mentality: The Brain Suppresses Personal Moral Code When In Groups

I can't remember what film was being made but there was a mob/riot scene in it, the extras had been briefed and shown what they were to do but as the filming went on it became clear to the director that his mob of extras weren't acting anymore and had actually started rioting for the real, the violence got real. They had a heck of a job stopping it, they also had a nasty scare at the example they saw of a mob mentality taking over. There was little to actually incite such behaviour but the feeling of being a 'herd' being strong in a group was stronger than most people realised and it took them over.


----------



## JR 137

Somehow we’ve gone from a few kids bullying a single kid and some (including me) said to take out the leader/main bully to adult gang attacks and riots.

Targeting the main instigator can and has worked in an instance with kids.  An adolescents and up, not so much.

The ones who are saying take out the leader are probably and hopefully referring to the initial intent of the thread and no what to do if you find yourself surrounded by 10 Crips or in the middle of a We Want Hillary riot. It shouldn’t need to be said, but there’s a bit of a difference.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> or in the middle of a We Want Hillary riot.



Political post.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> Political post.


Aren’t most riots over political issues?  Excluding sports and prison riots.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> Aren’t most riots over political issues?  Excluding sports and prison riots.



Not my point, I mean specifically mentioning one politician in that way is a political post.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Political post.


Not really. He didn't say he wanted Hillary.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Not my point, I mean specifically mentioning one politician in that way is a political post.


No, if I happen to mention that Donald Trump exists, that's not inherently political. It only becomes political if I take a stance in favor of or opposing that politician or their actions/views.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Not really. He didn't say he wanted Hillary.


That's confusing when he actually implied the opposite by saying her supporters incited riots which was the point of my saying it's political.
Judging by the sheer amount of abuse that flies between political opponents on Fb you just need to say a couple of names and all hell breaks out. Frankly I've never seen anything like it, not just on social media it's carrying over into 'real' life.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> Not my point, I mean specifically mentioning one politician in that way is a political post.


I honestly thought you were joking. Seriously?  You’re going say that was a political post?  I’d expect that from a few of the clowns here who read one line, take it out of context, and twist it, but not you.

You’re better than that.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> That's confusing when he actually implied the opposite by saying her supporters incited riots which was the point of my saying it's political.
> Judging by the sheer amount of abuse that flies between political opponents on Fb you just need to say a couple of names and all hell breaks out. Frankly I've never seen anything like it, not just on social media it's carrying over into 'real' life.


Wow.  Just wow.

Ok, to keep it fair and balanced...

(Insert beginning of original post here) it doesn’t matter if you’re facing 10 Bloods or a We Love Donald riot...

See what I did there?  Now no one can accuse me of saying only Crips attack innocent people.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> Wow.  Just wow.
> 
> Ok, to keep it fair and balanced...
> 
> (Insert beginning of original post here) it doesn’t matter if you’re facing 10 Bloods or a We Love Donald riot...
> 
> See what I did there?  Now no one can accuse me of saying only Crips attack innocent people.



I'm not sure how much absolute abuse, invective and incredible hatred there is in the media as well as social media you know about when those two names are mentioned. I'm also remembering the days here when we had the Study that used to get tremendously heated, you'd get posters you thought calm and logically screaming abuse in capital letters at each others. Some of them are still here and I really don't want to see that side of them again.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure how much absolute abuse, invective and incredible hatred there is in the media as well as social media you know about when those two names are mentioned. I'm also remembering the days here when we had the Study that used to get tremendously heated, you'd get posters you thought calm and logically screaming abuse in capital letters at each others. Some of them are still here and I really don't want to see that side of them again.


I’m not directing this at you personally, so don’t read into it thinking so.  And I’ll respectfully try my best to be as non-political as possible.  I’m not taking a side, and you genuinely don’t know who I actually support in this...

If there’s that much hatred in a name, people need to lighten up.  Neither party is responsible for ANYTHING remotely close to being a truly international catastrophe like genocide, world war, etc.  Let’s be serious, the media has trashed both of them beyond recognition.  It’s pathetic.  People want our president to fail, and to epically fail.  Even if an American doesn’t support him, doesn’t any common sense enter the equation that if the president fails, our entire country fails?  Then what, an “I told you so?”  Once they’re able to say that, then what do they have?  I’m all about expressing an opinion and keeping government honest, but wanting to see them fail?  I’ve got better things to hope for that I’ve actually got control over. 

I barely watch the news and my only social media is here and another MA forum.

And I genuinely don’t understand why someone in a country half way across the world would get all worked up about my country’s president.  I certainly don’t get worked up over anyone else’s, save for someone who’s pointing nukes at someone else or committing crimes against humanity.  Brexit is your business.  Trump vs Hillary is ours.  I don’t know much about Brexit, and it doesn’t effect me.  I don’t live in the UK, so I know truly know squat about everyday life there, no matter how much I may potentially read.  Same for people outside the US.  

The people rioting in the streets over Trump vs Clinton are a bunch of Hippocrates.  ON BOTH SIDES.  There’s idiots in the news who shout out as loud as they can, and then there’s the rest of us who have some common sense.  And we’re the overwhelming majority of the population.  And even though we’re split as to who should be in charge and may argue like family, we’re united in wanting things to work out for everyone.  F the news.  F the media.  F social media.  If you think they truly represent just about all of us, you’re sadly mistaken.

I don’t see any of that as politics, just everyday life.  Again, I didn’t blame either side, nor did I state my allegiance to any party nor person; I simply implied an allegiance to common sense seeing my country succeed, no matter who’s behind the desk.


----------



## Tez3

Thank you for proving my point!

As for not seeing why your President scares the bejasus out of the rest of the world, well, I could tell you but I'm not going to on here. 

And people wondered why I raised the point about politics.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> Thank you for proving my point!
> 
> As for not seeing why your President scares the bejasus out of the rest of the world, well, I could tell you but I'm not going to on here.
> 
> And people wondered why I raised the point about politics.


If you think that proves your point that my OP was political, nothing I can say will change your mind.

Keep looking for things that aren’t there.  If you look hard enough, I’m sure can find anything you’re looking for in any post.

And ‘I could say something bad, but I won’t’ is a bit passive aggressive, don’t you think?


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> If you think that proves your point that my OP was political, nothing I can say will change your mind.
> 
> Keep looking for things that aren’t there.  If you look hard enough, I’m sure can find anything you’re looking for in any post.
> 
> And ‘I could say something bad, but I won’t’ is a bit passive aggressive, don’t you think?



No, I could say something but that would against the rules here so no it's not passive aggressive is it. I think you proved my point quite nicely about the 'Hillary' riots because you went on to have a rant about supporting Trump. There was no need to say anything about specific riots but you thought you'd get that little dig in, as I said the current political climate means it's creeping in everywhere. If you didn't mean to put that dig in why so defensive?


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> No, I could say something but that would against the rules here so no it's not passive aggressive is it. I think you proved my point quite nicely about the 'Hillary' riots because you went on to have a rant about supporting Trump. There was no need to say anything about specific riots but you thought you'd get that little dig in, as I said the current political climate means it's creeping in everywhere. If you didn't mean to put that dig in why so defensive?


I’m not being defensive at all.  You took a simple line mentioning a name, and turned it into something it’s not.  No digs, no nothing.

I didn’t say people should support Trump, I said people should support the president, who coincidentally happens to be Trump.  There’s a huge difference.  There’s a difference between being critical, and all out wanting a guy to fail.  I didn’t vote for GW Bush, and I was critical of him.  Wanting him to fail so I can say “I told you so!” never crossed my mind.  I wanted him to succeed so we can all succeed.

Do you know who I voted for?  Do you know my political ideology?  Funny thing is all I said was genuinely wanting to see your president to fail is actually wanting your country to fail.  Doesn’t matter who you voted for.  That was my point.

Keep escalating the situation.  And come back with another one of your passive aggressive quips.  And tell me how wrong I am.  And how I meant to start a political “rant” simply because I mentioned a name.

As I said previously, if the mere mention of someone’s name gets this response, you really need to relax a bit.  Especially when it’s a name that doesn’t govern you, put food on your table, and is realistically no direct threat to you personally.  Stop watching the stupid media.  They’ve done enough damage to two good people already.


----------



## Buka

Getting back to the OP, why is it some people never get bullied?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Buka said:


> Getting back to the OP, why is it some people never get bullied?



Is there such a person? I suspect it's more a matter of degree; some people get bullied a lot, some a little, most somewhere in between.


----------



## hoshin1600

Buka said:


> Getting back to the OP, why is it some people never get bullied?


because your such a nice guy.
your question is actually an important one, but in the opposing and equal question,, why are some kids victims of bullying over others.  
i would say certain characteristics lend themselves to it.  being an outlier VS being in the middle of the status quo.  or perhaps a situation of bad luck.  that was me.  i happen to live two houses away from the neighborhood bully on a 4 house dead end street that was a 1/2 mile from other neighborhoods.




Dirty Dog said:


> Is there such a person?


yes and its usually the bully.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Getting back to the OP, why is it some people never get bullied?


I wish I knew that answer. More to the point, I wish I'd known that as a kid.


----------



## Steve

hoshin1600 said:


> because your such a nice guy.
> your question is actually an important one, but in the opposing and equal question,, why are some kids victims of bullying over others.
> i would say certain characteristics lend themselves to it.  being an outlier VS being in the middle of the status quo.  or perhaps a situation of bad luck.  that was me.  i happen to live two houses away from the neighborhood bully on a 4 house dead end street that was a 1/2 mile from other neighborhoods.
> 
> 
> 
> yes and its usually the bully.


Often bullies also are bullied.  Bully victims are kids who are bullied and bully ither kids to avoid being bullied themselves.  An understandable if destructive response.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> I’m not being defensive at all.  You took a simple line mentioning a name, and turned it into something it’s not.  No digs, no nothing.
> 
> I didn’t say people should support Trump, I said people should support the president, who coincidentally happens to be Trump.  There’s a huge difference.  There’s a difference between being critical, and all out wanting a guy to fail.  I didn’t vote for GW Bush, and I was critical of him.  Wanting him to fail so I can say “I told you so!” never crossed my mind.  I wanted him to succeed so we can all succeed.
> 
> Do you know who I voted for?  Do you know my political ideology?  Funny thing is all I said was genuinely wanting to see your president to fail is actually wanting your country to fail.  Doesn’t matter who you voted for.  That was my point.
> 
> Keep escalating the situation.  And come back with another one of your passive aggressive quips.  And tell me how wrong I am.  And how I meant to start a political “rant” simply because I mentioned a name.
> 
> As I said previously, if the mere mention of someone’s name gets this response, you really need to relax a bit.  Especially when it’s a name that doesn’t govern you, put food on your table, and is realistically no direct threat to you personally.  Stop watching the stupid media.  They’ve done enough damage to two good people already.



Thank you for another rant, again not political...much. As for who you voted for, NFI. Still you made me laugh. I love that you think I'm 'passive aggressive' I'm not, I'm just aggressive, never been passive in my life. 

Still, not one to hold a grudge are you, we have a disagreement on this thread and now you are all over me like a tramp on chips, everything I say elicits a rant, sounds like someone else I know on here. I get that you hated me disagreeing with you earlier, I get that you want your own back because you are angry and riled up but really do we need more political posts? It's got boring.


----------



## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> What controls a mob is the herd mentality, people feel stronger and less inhibited in a mob, they literally can get carried away. Non violent people can become very violent, commit sexual assault and rape, riot and loot in a mob whereas individually they would never dream of doing such things. Mob Mentality: The Brain Suppresses Personal Moral Code When In Groups
> 
> I can't remember what film was being made but there was a mob/riot scene in it, the extras had been briefed and shown what they were to do but as the filming went on it became clear to the director that his mob of extras weren't acting anymore and had actually started rioting for the real, the violence got real. They had a heck of a job stopping it, they also had a nasty scare at the example they saw of a mob mentality taking over. There was little to actually incite such behaviour but the feeling of *being a 'herd'* being strong in a group was stronger than most people realised and it took them over.



Hey!!??  You trying to bully me?     

I have heard of things like that.  I can't remember more about it either.

To me the surprising thing is how small a group of people can be, who take on mob characteristics.  I have seen two people feed off of each other until they can or do act in a mob-like frenzy.


----------



## oftheherd1

Steve said:


> Often bullies also are bullied.  Bully victims are kids who are bullied and bully ither kids to avoid being bullied themselves.  An understandable if destructive response.



I have heard that and it makes sense.  It seems kids often try to imitate their parents.  Being bullied will  affect your sense of self worth.  But I think there are a lot of others reasons to lack self worth for other reasons, and I expect many of them might cause a kid to turn to bullying to help feel more worthy.


----------



## Steve

Buka said:


> Getting back to the OP, why is it some people never get bullied?





gpseymour said:


> I wish I knew that answer. More to the point, I wish I'd known that as a kid.


Are we talking about kids or adults?  I think the answer depends a lot on the distinction 

Kids:  traits and characteristics that lead to less of a chance of being bullied:

Kids who are involved with groups and are busy tend to be bullied less.  They have a support network of other kids, tend to be more confident and social and are less appealing to bullies.
Kids who are mild, middle of the road and don't attract much attention to themselves in any way.  The old "nail that sticks out" canard.  This isn't always within the kid's control. 
Kids who are emotionally intelligent and can intuitively defuse situations. 
What else can you guys think of?

With regards to adults, it's similar, but I would just add again that it's a lot about perception.  Some employees consider any negative feedback they get to be bullying.


----------



## oftheherd1

Buka said:


> Getting back to the OP, why is it some people never get bullied?



Geez Buka,  why would you want to get back to the OP's question/comment?  Isn't it more fun to watch people in the thread try to bully each other?


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> I have heard that and it makes sense.  It seems kids often try to imitate their parents.  Being bullied will  affect your sense of self worth.  But I think there are a lot of others reasons to lack self worth for other reasons, and I expect many of them might cause a kid to turn to bullying to help feel more worthy.


Or to help them avoid being a victim.  The victim bully is a situation where the victim of bullying is trying to regain some control over the situation.  It's not a good way to do it, but for a 10 or 12 year old human being, it might be the only one they can come up with.

In past discussions about bullying, folks have brought up the early scene in the book Ender's Game, where he just destroys the bully.  That's an extreme example of what we're talking about.  It's interesting because, in the book, it was looked at as a positive trait.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> Geez Buka,  why would you want to get back to the OP's question/comment?  Isn't it more fun to watch people in the thread try to bully each other?


An astute observation.  This is a good example of what I mean when I say that among adults, bullying is often a matter of perception.  I would guess that our resident curmudgeon sees herself as the victim of bullying and not a bully herself.  Others might disagree.

To the moderators:  This post is not intended to be abusive, overly aggressive, threatening, or to "troll".  It is an on-topic observation related directly to the relevant observations of another poster.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Are we talking about kids or adults?  I think the answer depends a lot on the distinction
> 
> Kids:  traits and characteristics that lead to less of a chance of being bullied:
> 
> Kids who are involved with groups and are busy tend to be bullied less.  They have a support network of other kids, tend to be more confident and social and are less appealing to bullies.
> Kids who are mild, middle of the road and don't attract much attention to themselves in any way.  The old "nail that sticks out" canard.  This isn't always within the kid's control.
> Kids who are emotionally intelligent and can intuitively defuse situations.
> What else can you guys think of?
> 
> With regards to adults, it's similar, but I would just add again that it's a lot about perception.  Some employees consider any negative feedback they get to be bullying.


I think a lot is the kids' projected confidence, too. I was clearly a shy and quiet kid, and that leaves an opening for bullying.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Or to help them avoid being a victim.  The victim bully is a situation where the victim of bullying is trying to regain some control over the situation.  It's not a good way to do it, but for a 10 or 12 year old human being, it might be the only one they can come up with.
> 
> In past discussions about bullying, folks have brought up the early scene in the book Ender's Game, where he just destroys the bully.  That's an extreme example of what we're talking about.  It's interesting because, in the book, it was looked at as a positive trait.


I take it the model is that they figure there will be a bully in the situation, and if they are that bully, they are not the person being bullied. Sound about right?


----------



## oftheherd1

Steve said:


> An astute observation.  This is a good example of what I mean when I say that among adults, bullying is often a matter of perception.  I would guess that our resident curmudgeon sees herself as the victim of bullying and not a bully herself.  Others might disagree.
> 
> To the moderators:  This post is not intended to be abusive, overly aggressive, threatening, or to "troll".  It is an on-topic observation related directly to the relevant observations of another poster.



I would just say that no one should assume that I was talking about anyone in particular.  I know of one self-admitted curmudgeon at Martial Talk.  He is a he, at least he was the last time he mentioned gender.  I think (in fact agree) my attitudes and posts often get me considered a curmudgeon, but I'm not admitting it, and people are usually kind enough not to accuse me.  

Hmmmm.  Maybe I should start a thread where posters can say who they suspect is a curmudgeon, and with enough proof, actually accuse someone.  What was the name of that game?


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I take it the model is that they figure there will be a bully in the situation, and if they are that bully, they are not the person being bullied. Sound about right?


Right.  it can also occur contextually, so some kids are bullied at home and, in return, bully others at school.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> I would just say that no one should assume that I was talking about anyone in particular.  I know of one self-admitted curmudgeon at Martial Talk.  He is a he, at least he was the last time he mentioned gender.  I think (in fact agree) my attitudes and posts often get me considered a curmudgeon, but I'm not admitting it, and people are usually kind enough not to accuse me.
> 
> Hmmmm.  Maybe I should start a thread where posters can say who they suspect is a curmudgeon, and with enough proof, actually accuse someone.  What was the name of that game?


I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.  I'm sorry if I did so.  I had someone in particular in mind, but only as an example of how I interpreted your post.  

Also, it wasn't to say one way or the other that anyone IS a bully.  It was to highlight an example of what I meant earlier when I said that for adults, bullying is often a matter of perspective.   I hope that's clear. 

I think I would enjoy your game.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Buka said:


> Getting back to the OP, why is it some people never get bullied?


Tons of reasons why. A child can go to one school and have no problems. They can go to another school and be the center of bullying.  Everyone can be bullied.  No one is immune to it.  Most just stop it before it has a chance  to become bullying.  I don’t think their is a general reason why people don't get bullied.  I get bullied when I play online first person shooters.  It doesn't bother me because it's usually a kid being a butt because they know no one can punch them for having too much mouth.


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> Thank you for another rant, again not political...much. As for who you voted for, NFI. Still you made me laugh. I love that you think I'm 'passive aggressive' I'm not, I'm just aggressive, never been passive in my life.
> 
> Still, not one to hold a grudge are you, we have a disagreement on this thread and now you are all over me like a tramp on chips, everything I say elicits a rant, sounds like someone else I know on here. I get that you hated me disagreeing with you earlier, I get that you want your own back because you are angry and riled up but really do we need more political posts? It's got boring.


Tez, sweetie, I hold no grudge against you.  Your posts elicited no emotional reaction from me.  And I didn’t feel any truly angered emotion from you.  This conversation is like the polite and respectful, all the while having opposite opinions, conversation I have with close friends and family.

I’m Armenian.  We come off as hostile sometimes when we’re in fact just being genuine and sincere.  You’re English, and are supposed to be eccentric (or what was your line?).  I’m sure this conversation would be a great one over a few pints.  I’m a big porter and pale ale (not IPA) fan.


----------



## oftheherd1

Steve said:


> I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.  I'm sorry if I did so.  I had someone in particular in mind, but only as an example of how I interpreted your post.
> 
> Also, it wasn't to say one way or the other that anyone IS a bully.  It was to highlight an example of what I meant earlier when I said that for adults, bullying is often a matter of perspective.   I hope that's clear.
> 
> I think I would enjoy your game.



No problem, I just thought there was just a shade of ambiguity there that some people might have taken wrong.  I only wanted to ensure there was no reason for anyone to think that way and maybe chime in on a side that wasn't yours or mine..


----------



## drop bear

This is good.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1707031749438660
			




This is also good bouncing method.

This would also mean conversation is sparring. Now who thought of that one?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> This would also mean conversation is sparring. Now who thought of that one?


Conversation CAN BE sparring. You appear to believe all discussions of content must go that way unless everyone is in agreement.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Conversation CAN BE sparring. You appear to believe all discussions of content must go that way unless everyone is in agreement.



If you are testing ideas it generally goes that way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> If you are testing ideas it generally goes that way.


Only if your point is to win. If I want to learn, then I accept that sometimes my position will change. I don't need to defend my ideas nor attack the others - I need to communicate and understand. Now, if I reach a point where I believe my position is correct and theirs is incorrect (or if I just want to enjoy a lively debate), then we may enter the sparring scenario. Most of the time, though, I don't need to win/lose every point. Sometimes, it's just about learning and sharing, even when there is disagreement. There are points on which @Steve and I have fundamental disagreements. We've discussed them and even done a bit of sparring over them. We seem to each understand the other's points, and still disagree on the premise. Now when they come up, we acknowledge the differences and move on to more useful discussion.


----------



## JR 137

drop bear said:


> This would also mean conversation is sparring. Now who thought of that one?



The first person who said “verbal Judo” thought of that one


----------



## hoshin1600

its called _*debate*_


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Only if your point is to win. If I want to learn, then I accept that sometimes my position will change. I don't need to defend my ideas nor attack the others - I need to communicate and understand. Now, if I reach a point where I believe my position is correct and theirs is incorrect (or if I just want to enjoy a lively debate), then we may enter the sparring scenario. Most of the time, though, I don't need to win/lose every point. Sometimes, it's just about learning and sharing, even when there is disagreement. There are points on which @Steve and I have fundamental disagreements. We've discussed them and even done a bit of sparring over them. We seem to each understand the other's points, and still disagree on the premise. Now when they come up, we acknowledge the differences and move on to more useful discussion.



I think it is developing a deeper understanding of how conversation works.

You wouldn't know because you do Aikido.


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> its called _*debate*_



What is the benefit you get by defining terms?


----------



## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> What is the benefit you get by defining terms?


Am i annoying?  In this instance there is no benefit. It just seemed obvious to me that "conversational sparring" is a debate.  Other times my brain is just bored. I'm not trying to be right, I just like the mental exercise.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I think it is developing a deeper understanding of how conversation works.
> 
> You wouldn't know because you do Aikido.


And yet I spar, so I'm not sure what Aikido has to do with the issue at hand.

Conversation is not always about winning. I test ideas often, and let them die on the table, rather than fighting to defend them when they are flawed. Your verbal sparring is often like someone insisting on using a leg sweep, even when their opponent is balanced and has structure against it. That's not testing a technique - it's bludgeoning someone with your leg to little effect.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> And yet I spar, so I'm not sure what Aikido has to do with the issue at hand.
> 
> Conversation is not always about winning. I test ideas often, and let them die on the table, rather than fighting to defend them when they are flawed. Your verbal sparring is often like someone insisting on using a leg sweep, even when their opponent is balanced and has structure against it. That's not testing a technique - it's bludgeoning someone with your leg to little effect.



Aikido has noting to do with the issue at hand.

I just wanted you to think about how you recognised that fact.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Aikido has noting to do with the issue at hand.
> 
> I just wanted you to think about how you recognised that fact.


I think I'm still missing the point of that.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I think I'm still missing the point of that.




That potentially you are reading the post in two ways. One is the message at face value and one is what I am trying to achieve by posting. So there is a conversation to comunicate. But also the sparring element in that I just took a shot at you.

So inseted of just reacting you recognized it for the attack it was. And also recognized that it had no basis as per the discussion. And then addressed it. You approached the conversation tactically.

And you did this because to a degree you are trained in conversation and can recognize the different elements.

And this is how conversation as sparring works.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

*Helping Students Deal With Bullying *

I have 2 teachers in my life. For the issue of "deal with bullying", one teacher would put a knife into my hand. The other teacher would ask me to back off and bite my lip.

What I would suggest my students to deal with bulling are:

To beat that person up that

- his own mother won't be able to recognize him.
- he will be regret that his mother ever brought him into his world.
- he won't be able to take care of himself for the rest of his life.
- he will have to crawl on the ground and pick up his missing teeth.
- he will know that death is not that bad after all.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> That potentially you are reading the post in two ways. One is the message at face value and one is what I am trying to achieve by posting. So there is a conversation to comunicate. But also the sparring element in that I just took a shot at you.
> 
> So inseted of just reacting you recognized it for the attack it was. And also recognized that it had no basis as per the discussion. And then addressed it. You approached the conversation tactically.
> 
> And you did this because to a degree you are trained in conversation and can recognize the different elements.
> 
> And this is how conversation as sparring works.


Okay, but conversation as sparring can get in the way of communication, sharing ideas, and even testing ideas. It is not. A universal concept. As someone else pointed out, that’s debate, and debate is not the only way of advancing thought.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> *Helping Students Deal With Bullying *
> 
> I have 2 teachers in my life. For the issue of "deal with bullying", one teacher would put a knife into my hand. The other teacher would ask me to back off and bite my lip.
> 
> What I would suggest my students to deal with bulling are:
> 
> To beat that person up that
> 
> - his own mother won't be able to recognize him.
> - he will be regret that his mother ever brought him into his world.
> - he won't be able to take care of himself for the rest of his life.
> - he will have to crawl on the ground and pick up his missing teeth.
> - he will know that death is not that bad after all.


If we are truly talking about bullying, that’s not an appropriate response.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> If we are truly talking about bullying, that’s not an appropriate response.


we all love to see this:

"You try to bully me? You are lucky that I haven't bullied you yet."


----------



## Balrog

Tez3 said:


> What controls a mob is the herd mentality, people feel stronger and less inhibited in a mob, they literally can get carried away.


Somebody once said that there is stupidity in numbers.  Take the IQ of the dumbest person in the group and divide it by the number of people in the group to get the group IQ.  And there is a modicum of truth in that.


----------



## Steve

.


----------

