# Forms: technique or theatrics?



## OldKarateGuy (Feb 10, 2013)

This board seems pretty slow, so I'll toss out something that has been bothering me for awhile. At a recent, very large TSD tournament, I was judging for most of a day in ring which (based on rank of competitors) seemed to be nothing but Sip Soo (Jitte, Jutte). I personally thought that most of the competitors I saw feloniously murdered this form. They seem to have replaced karate technique with theatrical moves, which had nothing to do with anything remotely resembling genuine karate. Fcous was not intended to demonstrate how to correctly focus a technique, but was a grunting and growling intended to impress the watchers with a competitor's fierce spirit. The same with facial expression. I thought maybe I was witnessing a Haka war dance before a rugby match, for all the wild ferocious faces. Some of the moves included such low stances that no one could possibly move effectively from them. Overall, I felt most of the performers had totally missed the essence and the meaning of the form. They were, in my opinion, demonstrating their ignorance. 
BTW, I was usually a minority among the judges, since my scores were just about the opposite from the rest of the panel. As the head judge (in my ring) told me, "I reward loud kihaps and spirit."  Well, what about stance? Footwork? Timing? 
So, my questions: Have we turned traditional forms into a form of theater or dance, where arbitrary movements are favored for their artistry or spirit, over proper fighting technique? When we add little flourishes and fancy hand movements, which do nothing to show karate, but seem artistic and pretty, are we still doing karate? When we reward tournament performances like I have described, don't we do a disservice to our art, because we create incentives for theatrics over technique? 
What's your feeling about this? Your experience? Should we create some new performance art, maybe more gymnastics than fighting art, and call it "Forms?"


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## Cyriacus (Feb 11, 2013)

I have one thing to say: Bunkai. Because not everyone buys the theatrical stuff.
Its not different to McDojos. Live and let live. Pursue what interests you, and dont bother worrying about the rubbish.


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## K-man (Feb 11, 2013)

It would be interesting to ask them to demonstrate an application for one of their 'fancy' moves. What I mean is, if you look at tai chi you see low stances and 'strange' movements, but those movements in a martial style of tai chi are highly significant. If they have a realistic bunkai for their kata then ok, but as a judge you aren't going to know that. I have witnessed the same here with kata being changed until it looks like a different animal. Is that 'artistic expression' or kata done badly?  I don't know, but it is one of the reasons that I have little time for competition based karate.   :asian:


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## clfsean (Feb 11, 2013)

OldKarateGuy said:


> BTW, I was usually a minority among the judges, since my scores were just about the opposite from the rest of the panel. As the head judge (in my ring) told me, "I reward loud kihaps and spirit."  Well, what about stance? Footwork? Timing?



Out the door with the washwater & baby... 



OldKarateGuy said:


> So, my questions: Have we turned traditional forms into a form of theater or dance, where arbitrary movements are favored for their artistry or spirit, over proper fighting technique?



Yep. In tournaments I've been too lately, yes. I'm a CMA stylist now but my roots were TKD with the pyongahn sets. I appreciate & respect highly _*good*_ karate, Japanese or Okinawan. Now I'm afraid it's getting harder & harder to find, replaced by "gymkata".



OldKarateGuy said:


> When we add little flourishes and fancy hand movements, which do nothing to show karate, but seem artistic and pretty, are we still doing karate?



If it's there, you're already performing it. If not, well ... 



OldKarateGuy said:


> When we reward tournament performances like I have described, don't we do a disservice to our art, because we create incentives for theatrics over technique?



Yep.



OldKarateGuy said:


> What's your feeling about this? Your experience?



MA since 1981. Originally old TKD. Spent a little time in JMA



OldKarateGuy said:


> Should we create some new performance art, maybe more gymnastics than fighting art, and call it "Forms?"



They did ... it's called XMA/Power Rangers.


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 11, 2013)

We don't participate in many competitions anymore, and it may very well be because of this.  We, as a branch school, can only participate in competitions that our KJN approves.  Since we where his patch, any tournament we go to, is in effect, a stamp of approval from our KJN on what the host is promoting.  So we don't go to competitions that support the "gymkatas", XMA, Musical forms, etc.. .  What I tend to see in the handful of competitions I go to, are style well rooted in good technical standard, since it is what all of the judges are judging on.  

Personally I'm wondering how you could make Shipsoo flashy?  I may have to browse Youtube for versions of this form.. .


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## DMcHenry (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm with you "OldKarateGuy", and one of the reasons I don't attend tournaments.   I'm an "old karate guy" too, having started training in the mid '70s, and I don't care at all for the flashy gymkata performances that are very popular now.  I'm sure very few would be happy with me if I were asked to sit in as a judge, and I would most likely tend to deduct points for each additional Kihap etc. I see.   Sure it takes athleticism to do acrobatics, but it's not my idea of good/quality martial arts.


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## OldKarateGuy (Feb 11, 2013)

@Dr Rush,

I didn't think any of the additions or changes did anything but destroy the meaning of the form, but some were obviously added for some dramatic flair, or in a misguided attempt to show strength and focus (including some serious grunting and growling). There were almost random twisting hand movements, which did nothing to demonstrate some genuine technique, but which sort of resembled a dancer's hand movements. I also found some of the preamble and finishing moves to be ridiculous...snapping one's heels together like a soldier in a bad war movie, or marching stiff legged out to the center of the ring. How about screaming at the panel, "JUDGES, MY NAME IS..." blah blah blah. Ki-ahps that went on...and on and on, at about a bazillion decibels, and sounded like the sound track to Jurassic Park. Couldn't we just do that in a more normal tone of voice?  
I was reminded of those awful MA shows from Orlando that used to be on ESPN about 4 AM, with somersaults, weapons with lights, music, and the like. I don't really want to put them down, if that's their normal, but maybe we should coin a new phrase for such displays, because I just do not think they are karate. 
I've always enjoyed watching kata/hyung, performing myself and teaching to others. I'd like to think that traditional forms contain real directions for fighting, although there are obviously some moves and some forms which do this better than others. I'm sure that we all know some form or some move that simply defy an easy application. However, watching the various iterations of Sip Soo at the tournament, I could not help but think that almost none of the competitors saw any connection between the form and fighting. The form was some arbitrary series of moves, meaningless except for some subjective quality that involved lots of tension and lots of yelling. 
BTW, I don't want to post a video demonstrating what I mean (although there are more than a few available), because then I'd be pointing at some individual. That's not my intent. But obviously, this kind of stuff is creeping into my organization and others too. When such become the standard, we all lose I think.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2013)

I've commented about this in other threads, even recently, but I'll say it again here.

Martial arts were never intended to be performance art.  Using martial arts as performance art is a new thing, and that includes forms competition.

This stuff was a big secret just a couple of generations ago.  You didn't want anyone else to know what it is that you know or how good you are at it, because then the other guy would have an advantage over you if you ever had to fight him.  So you never showed this stuff to anyone.  It was a real secret.

Forms were never meant to be seen by anyone, much less an uneducated audience that just wants to be entertained.  Forms were never meant for entertainment or to demonstrate to anyone.  They were meant to be a training tool that you used to help develop your skill in training.  It doesn't matter what an audience or a tournament judge might think about it.  All that matters is that it is helping you to develop your skill.  Nothing else.  It could be the ugliest or visually the most "boring" form ever created, but if it helps you develop good skills then it's tremendously valuable, regardless of what an audience might think of it.

I realize that forms have become something of a vehicle for demonstrating the spirit and flavor of one's martial system.  But really, asking to see someone's form is a bit like going to place a bid on a new house, and asking to see the contractor's toolbox first.  Forms are part of your toolbox.  They are not the house.

I know what you are talking about, this is a new animal.  This is not what martial arts were meant to be and it is being altered.  Just be clear on what you are doing and what you want out of it, and don't get involved or connected to the other stuff.


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## Tez3 (Feb 12, 2013)

With the gymnastics being put in by predominately young people is this perhaps something to do with marketing and bringing money into a school/club? Rather than just being a 'crowd pleaser' perhaps it's also a 'parent' pleaser. Often parents wince when their offspring spar and they will often say they don't want them doing much of it (?) they'd rather their children learn katas. If those katas are then gymnastic in tone it looks as if the children have learnt a great deal plus it's similiar enough to what is seen on Power Rangers and the like so hey it must be good!
I don't like it I have to say, not just because I can't do the gymnastic stuff but because I also love kata and Bunkai and enjoy seeing things done properly which may be boring for some but I find riveting.

It's also being found in the horse world btw, dressage is very much along the lines of kata, it was used to train war horses for battle as well as obedience and suppleness of movement, it is also boring for non dressage people to watch so the modern world has decided it needs to be jazzed up because people don't want to see excellence so much as flash moves and music. It has to be entertaining! Sigh.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 12, 2013)

I used to think the sport krotty stuff was garbage, but now I just think it's not for me. Who really cares? It doesn't affect my training or my approach to training at all. I really don't see why some people get so worked up about it, to be honest. 

We can talk about "original intent" until we are blue in the face. Nobody can say with 100% accuracy what the original intent was for anything. We can make educated guesses, but I don't believe anyone really knows (I don't think sport karate was the original intent).

The problem with judging at a tournament (especially a multi-style open tournament) is that pretty much everybody thinks their way of doing things is the "right" way, or "original," or "old school," because their instructor told them so. In many cases, the judge may not know the form they are judging (Taekwondo guy judging a Chinese form, for example). In this case, how can you justify deductions based on the movements in the form or the way a technique is done? Other than judging the physical skill/athleticism or presentation, what can you judge that would be fair?


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## Tez3 (Feb 12, 2013)

I've never judged at an 'open' style competition, only a 'same' style one..Wado Ryu. We know how the katas should be done, we have the Founder's videos of them as well as a continous line of instructors from him. 
I think it does affect us all when the gymnastic style of kata is seen as being correct, for one thing many of us can't do it and then we have potential students coming to learn and finding out that's not what we do. Nothing seems to persuade them we aren't doing it wrong because if it's on the television ie Ninja Warriors, ESPN etc it must be correct. I think the sheer laziness of adding hand flapping etc is also annoying, can't be bothered to learn the kata properly? Stick a few extras in to make it look more entertaining and as often happens when points scoring in sparring, make lots of noise so that it must be impressive. What happened to the quiet dignity and gravitas of proper kata?


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## K-man (Feb 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> We can talk about "original intent" until we are blue in the face. Nobody can say with 100% accuracy what the original intent was for anything. We can make educated guesses, but I don't believe anyone really knows (I don't think sport karate was the original intent).


There is no 'original intent' in kata.  There is just 'the' kata that has been handed down to you. The original kata were/are complete fighting systems. Nothing to do with sport. If you want to put handsprings into your competition kata then go for it. Just realise that you are no longer performing 'the' kata.  If you have been privileged to have been taught kata that has passed down unchanged, then you have the responsibility to pass that kata on, unchanged, to those who follow. The reason for this is that none of us know what the original kata meant, other than a collection of movements and techniques. But within that collection of movements and techniques, for those of us who want to follow this path, is a lifetime of study. In a way it's like having access to a museum.  Changing the kata is like the curator of the museum going through the displays and throwing out all the moths because they weren't as pretty as the butterflies.   :asian:


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 12, 2013)

K-man said:


> There is no 'original intent' in kata.  There is just 'the' kata that has been handed down to you. The original kata were/are complete fighting systems. Nothing to do with sport. If you want to put handsprings into your competition kata then go for it. Just realise that you are no longer performing 'the' kata.  If you have been privileged to have been taught kata that has passed down unchanged, then you have the responsibility to pass that kata on, unchanged, to those who follow. The reason for this is that none of us know what the original kata meant, other than a collection of movements and techniques. But within that collection of movements and techniques, for those of us who want to follow this path, is a lifetime of study. In a way it's like having access to a museum.  Changing the kata is like the curator of the museum going through the displays and throwing out all the moths because they weren't as pretty as the butterflies.   :asian:



I think many problems arise from the forms that were handed down. Most people think they are doing it the "right" way (or teaching it the "right" way), but there are often differences between different schools even of the exact same style. 

I liken it to music in a way. It's like covering a song someone else originally performed. Some musicians will play the song note for note from the recording, while others may change certain parts, change the style, or do something else to "make it theirs." It's not necessarily exactly the same, but it's still the song, right? What else would you call it? In the context that it is being performed it's "correct."

I think I try to do it the way you're talking about, if I understand you correctly. I try to perform the form as accurately as possible to the standardized way (in my case Kukkiwon Taekwondo). But for demonstration or competition that may not be the "best" way to do it. Using the OP as an example, I'm sure the competitors perform the way they do because that what wins in that particular tournament or circuit.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 12, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> I've never judged at an 'open' style competition, only a 'same' style one..Wado Ryu. We know how the katas should be done, we have the Founder's videos of them as well as a continous line of instructors from him.
> I think it does affect us all when the gymnastic style of kata is seen as being correct, for one thing many of us can't do it and then we have potential students coming to learn and finding out that's not what we do. Nothing seems to persuade them we aren't doing it wrong because if it's on the television ie Ninja Warriors, ESPN etc it must be correct. I think the sheer laziness of adding hand flapping etc is also annoying, can't be bothered to learn the kata properly? Stick a few extras in to make it look more entertaining and as often happens when points scoring in sparring, make lots of noise so that it must be impressive. What happened to the quiet dignity and gravitas of proper kata?



I personally don't care if people who don't know any better have misconceptions about what I do. If a student comes in expecting something different and feels like what we do isn't for them, then it isn't for them. If competitors go to a competition where a more "traditional" performance wins, they will lose, and then they can decide if they want to continue losing, change the way they do forms, or find another venue to compete in the future. I think it's a kind of competition culture. And like ethnic culture, it may be different from your own, but it's not necessarily wrong depending on the context.


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## K-man (Feb 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> I think many problems arise from the forms that were handed down. Most people think they are doing it the "right" way (or teaching it the "right" way), but there are often differences between different schools even of the exact same style.
> 
> I liken it to music in a way. It's like covering a song someone else originally performed. Some musicians will play the song note for note from the recording, while others may change certain parts, change the style, or do something else to "make it theirs." It's not necessarily exactly the same, but it's still the song, right? What else would you call it? In the context that it is being performed it's "correct."
> 
> I think I try to do it the way you're talking about, if I understand you correctly. I try to perform the form as accurately as possible to the standardized way (in my case Kukkiwon Taekwondo). But for demonstration or competition that may not be the "best" way to do it. Using the OP as an example, I'm sure the competitors perform the way they do because that what wins in that particular tournament or circuit.


Sometimes it is possible to work backwards and see where things have changed. In some ways it doesn't matter so long as the change was made by a master who understood the original kata and changed it to fit the style he was developing. Guys like Bushi Matsumura, Kanryo Higaonna, Kanbun Uechi, Chojun Miyagi etc.did this.  Funakoshi was slightly different in that he changed things to teach in schools. But, if the local guy was to change things to suit the local competition, then that's different. Even then, if he continues to teach the original kata and uses his own variation only for competition, fine.

And, you are right about the changes. I started in karate with Goju Kai (Japanese). All of those kata are slightly different to those taught in Okinawa. Subtle differences but enough to change the original meaning or intent. But again, there is enough similarity to work on application that may well have been part of the original teaching. That we certainly will never know for certain.    :asian:


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 12, 2013)

OldKarateGuy said:


> @Dr Rush,
> 
> I didn't think any of the additions or changes did anything but destroy the meaning of the form, but some were obviously added for some dramatic flair, or in a misguided attempt to show strength and focus (including some serious grunting and growling). There were almost random twisting hand movements, which did nothing to demonstrate some genuine technique, but which sort of resembled a dancer's hand movements.



Okay, I guess if I am to be honest with myself, I see it at the tournaments I go to as well.. . There are a couple of organizations/schools that stomp with every movement, as if it was demonstrating some sort of power.. . Kihaps that go on for miles.. .  I ALWAYS score them somewhat lower, because it makes no sense to me.. .  Although, I've yet to see "jazz hands" in kata/hyungs! 



OldKarateGuy said:


> I also found some of the preamble and finishing moves to be ridiculous...snapping one's heels together like a soldier in a bad war movie, or marching stiff legged out to the center of the ring. How about screaming at the panel, "JUDGES, MY NAME IS..." blah blah blah. Ki-ahps that went on...and on and on, at about a bazillion decibels, and sounded like the sound track to Jurassic Park. Couldn't we just do that in a more normal tone of voice?



Honestly I would see that as a sign of disrespect.  I would never scream at a senior rank, period.



OldKarateGuy said:


> I was reminded of those awful MA shows from Orlando that used to be on ESPN about 4 AM, with somersaults, weapons with lights, music, and the like. I don't really want to put them down, if that's their normal, but maybe we should coin a new phrase for such displays, because I just do not think they are karate.



Yeah, I think those are/were the ISKA grand nationals?  Somewhat entertaining, but absolutely not Karate.  More XMA, if you wish to use such a ridiculous name.. . EXTREME MARTIAL ARTS, I always here the Macho Man Randy Savage's voice in my head when I hear that.. . LOL.



OldKarateGuy said:


> I've always enjoyed watching kata/hyung, performing myself and teaching to others. I'd like to think that traditional forms contain real directions for fighting, although there are obviously some moves and some forms which do this better than others. I'm sure that we all know some form or some move that simply defy an easy application. However, watching the various iterations of Sip Soo at the tournament, I could not help but think that almost none of the competitors saw any connection between the form and fighting. The form was some arbitrary series of moves, meaningless except for some subjective quality that involved lots of tension and lots of yelling.



I agree, but it's a tough one.  I believe this is what the students of some training halls are being taught, and they don't know any different.  It is this reason that I think we don't compete at many tournaments anymore.  When I was a kid, we used to got to a bunch of them.  IJ Kim's North American Championship in Cleveland, OH, S.H. Kim's tournament in Akron, OH, J.P. Choi's Battle of Columbus, K.W. Ahn's tournament in Cincinnati, OH, C.S. Kim's tournament in Pittsburgh, PA, K.W. Kim's tournament in D.C., S.H. Cho's tournament in NY, my KJN's tournament in Charleston, WV.. . they were all solid traditional tournaments.. . Now most of them are gone, or significantly changed.  Truly sad IMHO.



OldKarateGuy said:


> BTW, I don't want to post a video demonstrating what I mean (although there are more than a few available), because then I'd be pointing at some individual. That's not my intent. But obviously, this kind of stuff is creeping into my organization and others too. When such become the standard, we all lose I think.



I understand.


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## Tez3 (Feb 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> I personally don't care if people who don't know any better have misconceptions about what I do. If a student comes in expecting something different and feels like what we do isn't for them, then it isn't for them. If competitors go to a competition where a more "traditional" performance wins, they will lose, and then they can decide if they want to continue losing, change the way they do forms, or find another venue to compete in the future. I think it's a kind of competition culture. And like ethnic culture, it may be different from your own, but it's not necessarily wrong depending on the context.



However the trend seems to be that places aren't sticking to what they know and love but rather are changing things to get more people in through the door or to be more modern or perhaps even to win competitions.


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## Instructor (Feb 12, 2013)

First time I saw a "Musical Kata" I swore off tournaments forever.  Do Kata to improve your skill.  The moment the emphasis becomes impressing others you are lost.


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## jks9199 (Feb 12, 2013)

In terms of competitors announcing themselves, some of it may be an attempt to show confidence and just plain be heard...  Some tournament floors are very noisy, and I've had a hard time hearing a competitor.  That said -- there's a line.  I don't personally mark down someone for doing what I assume their instructor told them to, unless specific directions have been given otherwise.  Even then, it depends on the age of the competitor; I'll give kids more leeway for not adapting to a rule like that.  But the 10 second kiai/kiyup with a punch or kick?  Yeah.  The kiai is a focused sound generated by doing the technique properly almost naturally, or a sound that is designed to work to bring the body into unity and synchronization with the technique.  But -- I generally haven't had to gig anyone for that; if they're doing that, they've often got other problems like stance or balance anyway.


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## jks9199 (Feb 12, 2013)

In terms of competitors announcing themselves, some of it may be an attempt to show confidence and just plain be heard...  Some tournament floors are very noisy, and I've had a hard time hearing a competitor.  That said -- there's a line.  I don't personally mark down someone for doing what I assume their instructor told them to, unless specific directions have been given otherwise.  Even then, it depends on the age of the competitor; I'll give kids more leeway for not adapting to a rule like that.  But the 10 second kiai/kiyup with a punch or kick?  Yeah.  The kiai is a focused sound generated by doing the technique properly almost naturally, or a sound that is designed to work to bring the body into unity and synchronization with the technique.  But -- I generally haven't had to gig anyone for that; if they're doing that, they've often got other problems like stance or balance anyway.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 19, 2013)

OldKarateGuy said:


> I posted this before, but it seems appropriate to do so again, especially with what I have quoted above.
> 
> I used to teach a 4th Dan TKD practioner, teaching him Hapkido.  There were several occassions, probably 4 or 5, when I would be teaching him a technique and he would stop and get a bemused look on his face.  After a couple of times I kind of knew what was coming but I would ask.
> 
> ...


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## Makalakumu (Feb 24, 2013)

The following is an excerpt from my book, The Lost Art of Tang Soo Do.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Lost-Art-Tang-Soo/dp/0557150019



> A sample of what Hwang Kee expected can be found in Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) Moo Duk Kwan Volume One.  An excerpt can be found below.
> 
> _The elements that make up the character or personality of a form may be understood as follows:_
> 
> ...



This is why I wanted to start the following organization.  Tang Soo Do should have some group that is dedicated to breaking down the kata and making them more than theatrics.  

http://www.makalakula.com/



> Tang Soo Do is a form of karate that was exported to Korea in the 1930s.  Tang translates to China, referring specifically to the Tang Dynasty.  Soo translates to hand.  Tang Soo or China Hand is the old Okinawan name for Kara Te, which also mean China Hand, before the name was changed to Empty Hand in the 1930s.  Tang Soo Do is founded on the practice of the traditional forms that were exported from Okinawa to Japan.  One branch of Tang Soo Do evolved into what is called Taekwondo.  Another branch evolved to form a new martial art that draws deeply on Chinese roots.  It is called Soo Bahk Do.  Some of the branches of Tang Soo Do have changed little since they first came to Korea.  Other branches have explored the traditional roots of how forms were learned and practiced and have evolved.
> 
> Makalakula Tang Soo Do is an approach to the art of Tang Soo Do that stresses the study of traditional forms.  Makalakula Tang Soo Do is a curriculum that is designed to give students the tools to understand and practice all aspects of the forms.  Makalakula students will practice striking, throwing, joint locking, pressure points, weapons, meditation, and healing techniques.  Makalakula students will also learn how all of the above relate to the forms.



As time marches on and I continue producing media, I think we have an opportunity to evolve this martial art.


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## OldKarateGuy (Mar 6, 2013)

Ha! I get that about musical kata. However, I think competition is very helpful sometimes. Karateka get to show each other in a competitive forum various ways to demonstrate ability. When I watch kata competition, invariably, I learn something worthwhile by watching accomplished martial artists. I think too it's good motivation for those who are inclined to find value in placement at tournaments. I may not be all that interested myself, but I don't disparage those who do. And truthfully, I have competed a bit over the years. I guess I can be smug about tournaments' (lack of) relative value, but I like having those reminders of personal high finishes too.


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## K-man (Mar 6, 2013)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Ha! I get that about musical kata. However, I think competition is very helpful sometimes. *Karateka get to show each other in a competitive forum various ways to demonstrate ability. *When I watch kata competition, invariably, I learn something worthwhile by watching accomplished martial artists. I think too it's good motivation for those who are inclined to find value in placement at tournaments. I may not be all that interested myself, but I don't disparage those who do. And truthfully, I have competed a bit over the years. I guess I can be smug about tournaments' (lack of) relative value, but I like having those reminders of personal high finishes too.


Apart from the fact that some people can perform a kata in a perfect manner, perfect being in the eye of the beholder (judges), just what 'ability' can be demonstrated?     :asian:


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## OldKarateGuy (Mar 8, 2013)

Stance, power delivery, balance, speed, timing...uh, footwork...sure I'm missing something, but these are starters.


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## K-man (Mar 8, 2013)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Stance, power delivery, balance, speed, timing...uh, footwork...sure I'm missing something, but these are starters.


You are also describing a good dancer or a good runner. None of those demonstrate your ability as a street fighter.  Have a look at some of the old Japanese guys doing kata. They would be laughed at by the pretty boys today. Competition has totally changed the landscape. That's why I am no longer interested in competition.  It has absolutely nothing to do with RBSD. That's why we have threads questioning the effectiveness of karate for self defence.      :asian:


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## OldKarateGuy (Mar 9, 2013)

Well, I don't disagree re: the deleterious effect competition has had generally on martial arts. Watching the Olympic Judo was pretty sad, for instance, and the WKF kata competition is somehow like watching a caricature of real kata. The performers may or may excel at self defense. You perhaps cannot tell from watching their kata. But I don't dismiss all kata done at comeptition. Here's a video of a kata that can't be seen as anything but pretty powerful I think, and I also think this particular dude is some kind of fighter. I think we could probably see the connection. But we can disagree. I personally still think there is value in kata and kata competition, although I sometimes despair that the value will all be lost if we don't arrest this deteroriation of kata into gymnastics and theater.


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## K-man (Mar 9, 2013)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Well, I don't disagree re: the deleterious effect competition has had generally on martial arts. Watching the Olympic Judo was pretty sad, for instance, and the WKF kata competition is somehow like watching a caricature of real kata. The performers may or may excel at self defense. *You perhaps cannot tell from watching their kata.
> *
> That's exactly what I mean.
> 
> But I don't dismiss all kata done at comeptition. Here's a video of a kata that can't be seen as anything but pretty powerful I think, and I also think this particular dude is some kind of fighter. I think we could probably see the connection. But we can disagree. I personally still think there is value in kata and kata competition, although I sometimes despair that the value will all be lost if we don't arrest this deteroriation of kata into gymnastics and theater.


I don't disagree at all. I wish I could perform kata much better than I do but that ain't gunna happen any time soon. But the smartest, snappiest kata in the world isn't going to turn anyone into a good fighter. Adding hand flourishes and other pretty moves does nothing to impress either.  I'm not saying there is no value in kata competition and of course kata to me is karate. Without kata you simply don't have karate.  Some people call it 'free style' karate but I would prefer they just called it freestyle fighting to avoid confusion. 

In this video go to 5.45 and watch Gogen Yamaguchi performing the Goju Kai version of Suparinpei.  It wouldn't get past the first round of a kata competition but he is one guy I wouldn't want to upset in a back alley.  

[video]http://www.tubesfan.com/watch/gogen-yamaguchi-ikga5-wmv[/video] 

I would love to have some video from youtube of Masaji Taira performing kata to post for you to see an incredible difference.  His kata wouldn't get far in competition either but for raw power and kime I have never seen better.  While there are people like Taira around the value of kata will never be lost and he is passing it on to the next generation in a form we never even knew existed. Just don't expect to see it coming to a competition near you.    :asian:


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## chodancandidate (Oct 17, 2013)

I used to go to a tournament where they were smart enough to segregate the "traditional" forms from the "showing-off, flipping, gymnastic" type forms.  In my judging experiences, I have noticed primarily that judges are impressed by flair, even in a traditional forms setting.  I don't think it's right, but people add flips and fancy handwork to impress the judges, it doesn't matter how practical it is or not.  In my school's tournament, next year we will be adding a separate competition called "team forms" where the competitors will come up and demonstrate a form and a choreographed fight scene utilizing bunkai techniques from the form just demonstrated.  

These fancy flipping forms that people do in tournaments that have no practical purpose in reality are just a show of how some instructors and practitioners think Martial Arts and Dancing/Gymnastics/Acrobatics are the same thing.  I hate it, and I do not award people gold medals when they do it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2013)

The striking art can borrow the grappling art training model as well. I assume we are talking about "solo" training (training partner is not available) here. I have always believed that the best solo training is the partner training without partner. This way, your solo training can be mapped into combat without any modification. 

In the following 2 clips (from the grappling art), you can see that your body will move exactly the same way whether you are doing partner training or solo training. 

partner drill: 




solo drill:


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## Hyoho (Oct 17, 2013)

Well after years of watching and taking part in Embu in Japan. Kata for gradings etc. One really has to stifle a yawn a lot of the time. Getting really annoyed at students who wipe the floor with others but decide to do kata a week before Sandan!

What is sadly missing from most is 'creative visualization'. You watch them doing waza/kata but... there is no one there! And "this" you know will be missing from their daily practice. The ability to learn from a teacher, go off to use that knowledge and be able to improve without a partner.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Nov 11, 2013)

OldKarateGuy said:


> How about screaming at the panel, "JUDGES, MY NAME IS..." blah blah blah. Ki-ahps that went on...and on and on, at about a bazillion decibels, and sounded like the sound track to Jurassic Park.



This...so much this...in ITF tournaments, forms competitors are supposed to follow correct protocol when entering and exiting the ring, but that protocol simply consists of: (1) Walk to the center of the edge of the ring, facing the judges, stand at attention, bow, and say "Tang Soo!" (2) Take a step or two inside the ring, bow, say "Tang Soo!" (3) Choon bee. Say the name of your form loudly and clearly. (4) The head judge nods, and you begin. That's all that's necessary. Show respect for entering the ring, let me know what you're going to do, and do it.

There are so many schools, though, that apparently teach their students to go right up to the judges and shout "Judges, my name is Joe Schmoe, I study at the XYZ School, under Master So-and So, with your permission may I perform [form name]!!!!" There is even one school (not TSD...I believe they are either TKD or karate) that has their students walk in, go into a deep horse stance, with their arms down at their sides (almost a little form in itself in the execution of it) before shouting all this. Needless to say, it never impresses me when I am judging. I don't care who you are, what school you're from, or who your instructor is. None of that factors into your score. The only thing that matters is how you do the form. 

With that said, I will say one thing re: judging on proper stances. One thing I was instructed early on is that, unless it is a tournament solely of ITF students (and even then, since some schools are newer to the federation), I wasn't supposed to judge on whether the technique was "correct" or not, insofar as it was how I learned to do the form. Each style will have its variations, each school its peccadillos and peculiarities and differing points of focus for the moves. For instance, it would be improper of me to say, watching a TKD practitioner perform _taeguk il jang_, "His stance is nowhere near low enough. That's a bad front stance," when in reality it may be a perfectly acceptible, even proficient, walking stance according to the style. What I will judge on, though, is how the student moves. Even if I don't know anything about the form, I can tell if the performer has balance, speed control, power control, focus of sight, cheong shin, etc. The cheong shin aspect plays a bigger part when judging the younger ones, of course...often it's not very fair to look for inordinate amounts of coordination in them, but if I see confidence and purpose in them, that gets more points than someone who whispers and shuffles through the form.

...on a complete other note, show of hands if you've been a forms judge for 5-year old white/yellow belts? Anyone had the experience where the kid will get haphazardly to the end of gicho hyung il bu, then start to go down the center again, so you have to stop him? []


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