# React to an attack or Pre-Empt it? Any advice?



## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

Hello all my lovely peeps! 

It was horribly rainy this evening in Bruges. The sky descended to little above head height. I've never been in weather like that before. I said to someone that everything looked all sort of Matrix green - "Vert comme la Matrice" ... "Gr&#252;n wie die Matrix??" ... &#8220;Es gibt keinen l&#246;ffel????&#8221; but they just looked at me like I needed a hug. And I probably do. It&#8217;s like this, I'm debating what to do with myself. Run off and hide in a corner til the stars are in proper alignment or come out right now with bootblack on my cheekbones and phasers set to kill?

Ok, enough piffle* - a simple question*: using your MA in a real, off-mats or outside confrontation, at what point in your opponents  initial  move do you make your opening? How long do you wait before you  unleash your counter technique?

In my unimpressive life, I'm sensing impending trouble right now. Do I pre-empt the  IMAGINED threat or do I react to the  ACTUAL event? There&#8217;s an answer in the defensive timing analogy I&#8217;m certain. But after reading all this, I excuse you for wondering what I'm taking. Or maybe wondering if I've forgotten today's dose  Maybe I need to go to the kiddie zoo tomorrow and stroke some llamas, ha! 

All my clever and learned friends, your sage advice will make someone happy 

Yr mst obdt hmble srvt
Jenna


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## mantis (May 5, 2006)

1. you need a boyfriend (not for self defense, unless you want to practice oh him, but for the little weather situation you described)
2. the best self defense is NOT to be there in the first place. i.e. try to avoid situations as much as you can
3. you mentioned you are a mechanic, right? i dont know how hard it is to carry the wrench in your purse?

(only # 2 is not kidding)


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 5, 2006)

O, ye begging at the door of wisdom!
(I can be every bit as arcane as you)

My sensei teaches that my art is for defence. That means, to me, that I must wait for the aggressive act. By definition, if I strike first, I am the aggressor.

And, yes, someone pulling a weapon on you is an aggressive act.


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## BlackCatBonz (May 5, 2006)

You can be pre-emptive by positioning alone.....putting yourself in a position that makes it difficult for the attacker to actually attack, facilitating an easier response.
I look at it this way......If I am in danger and there is no escape, my attacker will know my intentions.


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## Kacey (May 5, 2006)

Well, I tend to agree with Mantis - avoidance is the best form of self-defense.  Other than that, it's difficult to give specific instruction that covers any and all possible scenarios; I've been nervous about my situation plenty of times that I wasn't attacked, and I don't know if it was my awareness of the situation that prevented the attack or if I was nervous about a potential situation that didn't exist.  While the best defense is a good offense, the problem with a pre-emptive strike is that there is the risk that the person who is making you nervous may not actually be intending to attack you - and then where are you?

Maybe if you can provide a little more detail about the particular scenario (if there is one) that is making you nervous?


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## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> 1. you need a boyfriend (not for self defense, unless you want to practice oh him, but for the little weather situation you described)
> 2. the best self defense is NOT to be there in the first place. i.e. try to avoid situations as much as you can
> 3. you mentioned you are a mechanic, right? i dont know how hard it is to carry the wrench in your purse?
> 
> (only # 2 is not kidding)


#1. Ahh, tell me you're not already taken mister mantis? A true defender of honour - what the world's been waiting for indeed 

#2. Not a difficult thing perhaps but assume I'm a little naive. I am "there in the first place" already. too late for hindsight. I sense an attack may be imminent - literal or metaphorical, the answer should be the same. When do I move?

#3. I recall mentioning that yes. Am I carrying my wrench to hit someone? Or am I carrying it to help someone in trouble?

#4. Why?

*** Neither #1 #2 or #3 merit serious reply.

*** #4 is the only serious question I have for you 

Yak atcha L8r
Jenna


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## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> O, ye begging at the door of wisdom!
> (I can be every bit as arcane as you)
> 
> My sensei teaches that my art is for defence. That means, to me, that I must wait for the aggressive act. By definition, if I strike first, I am the aggressor.
> ...


Good day Mister Egg,

I wonder are you hard boiled?? I suspect from your avatar, you are sunny side up, no?? 

You wouldn't say I was arcane if you saw my frock coat, frilly cuffs and herringbone skirt, ha! Oh I'm the belle of the ball arriving on me penny farthing, cor blimey guvnor.

Your sensei is a prudent lady or gentleman and your definition is absolutely 100% correct. My question to you then is how do you know your reaction will be sufficiently quick that you will not become the victim?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna


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## stickarts (May 5, 2006)

In a real fight scenario, it would depend upon what you felt your strengths were vs. the opponents. There are some opponents where my best strategy was to initiate the attack, however, in some cases, for example ,opponents with a reach advantage, I personally fought better by letting them advance as I countered.

In a struggle in life, I think using the philosophies that you have been practicing for 12 years in your aikido is the real "you" and your strongest ally! To use the energy thrown at you to work for you. This is what fits you!

...and I have a feeling your life is more impressive than you give yourself credit for!


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## elder999 (May 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my lovely peeps!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Firstly, Jenna, forgive me for not replying to your charming intro thread.Hi, I'm elder999, curmudgeonly mad scientist (really!) and near lifelong martial artist, with, sadly, a little bit of real, off-mats, outside confrontations.

I understand that you're traveling alone, but maybe you have a companion. First off, I'd say _listen to the what the voices in your head tell you._ If you sense impending trouble, pay attention, and try to get away from it, unless we're talking about some undercurrent of 
non-specific free-form anxiety. Someday you should read Gavin DeBecker's _The Gift of Fear_; it tells us that people who sense impending trouble are usually right......or on drugs, or off their meds.:lol: 

Secondly, the standard "real world, off-mats, outside confrontation" _self-defense_ advice is to preempt. Ugly, sad and true-if they're in your space, and you don't have an escape, don't wait for the first move, make it yourself. That doesn't fit so well for an aikidoka, and it's not at all what I think we should aspire to as martial artists and human beings, but it's what the majority of the so-called "real world" training "experts" advise, and statistically, they're correct-morally and legally, though, that advice is sometimes hard to swallow.

Next, as a woman, and aikidoka (and I went to school with,and dearly loved this woman so your status resonates with me) I'd say that you're probably not equipped for phyical preemption-I'd really concentrate on getting and staying away from the problem, and maybe carrying a wrench isn't such a bad idea, though a _screwdriver_ might serve you better, depending upon your size......

....and only the bit about being on drugs or off meds is kidding at all, I'm afraid. Stay safe.


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## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> You can be pre-emptive by positioning alone.....putting yourself in a position that makes it difficult for the attacker to actually attack, facilitating an easier response.
> I look at it this way......If I am in danger and there is no escape, my attacker will know my intentions.


Hey there Shawn,
Thank you, you sound like someone with a bit of grunt in your engine  Positioning? That's interesting. Are you talking specifically about moving out of range or something even more clever? Assuming things look as if they're ready to kick off for real. Assuming you're against a wall. Assuming you're confined. NO-one's actually made a move. But your adrenaline fuelled fight senses are twitching. Are you going first?

And I agree with your closing comment.

Don't you like Cats Shawn?? And don't tell me yes but only with fried rice, LOL 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Good day Mister Egg,
> 
> I wonder are you hard boiled?? I suspect from your avatar, you are sunny side up, no??
> 
> ...


 
Many would say a few seconds shy of three minutes.

Frock coat, frilly cuffs and herringbone skirt?  Don't tease, my dear.  We're professionals here 

As to the meat of the post, you don't.  The crux of the problem will lie in the emotional content of the individuals involved.  You are, hopefully, training to move calmly and deliberately.  Oftentimes, an attacker will be running a little steamier, higher on adreneline and considerably less controlled.  That is a high upper hand that martial artist has in a conflict.

By the way, your missing vowels are ou iie u ea
and one consonant, n


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## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> Well, I tend to agree with Mantis - avoidance is the best form of self-defense. Other than that, it's difficult to give specific instruction that covers any and all possible scenarios; I've been nervous about my situation plenty of times that I wasn't attacked, and I don't know if it was my awareness of the situation that prevented the attack or if I was nervous about a potential situation that didn't exist. While the best defense is a good offense, the problem with a pre-emptive strike is that there is the risk that the person who is making you nervous may not actually be intending to attack you - and then where are you?
> 
> Maybe if you can provide a little more detail about the particular scenario (if there is one) that is making you nervous?


 
Hey there Kacey  

Thank you for your reply. And yes, the pre-emptive strike will turn me into the attacker. My question to you: is there ever a case where this is NOT a bad thing? 

Me? I am not an attacker. My art is not an attacking art, there are few techniques designed that way. On the other hand, the threat at this stage may be imagined.

The situation can be taken as a real physical threat. Or it may be my hypersensitivity. I cannot tell exactly which is why I am keen for a strategy that will neither render me open nor turn me into the aggressor.

I'm not certain if you are familiar but in that respect, I keep thinking of Michael Douglas in Falling Down?? At the end his character asks "I'M the bad guy? How did that happen?"

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna


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## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

stickarts said:
			
		

> In a real fight scenario, it would depend upon what you felt your strengths were vs. the opponents. There are some opponents where my best strategy was to initiate the attack, however, in some cases, for example ,opponents with a reach advantage, I personally fought better by letting them advance as I countered.
> 
> In a struggle in life, I think using the philosophies that you have been practicing for 12 years in your aikido is the real "you" and your strongest ally! To use the energy thrown at you to work for you. This is what fits you!
> 
> ...and I have a feeling your life is more impressive than you give yourself credit for!


 
Hey Frankie Sticks! 

Frank, I like the idea of letting them come and counter. This is my style. I keep checking my distance, never let them come inside my circle, instead I enter theirs quickly and try to disrupt their balance. That's how I work it. If I've got somebody right up in my face then something has gone wrong somewhere. I didn't see him coming, my situational awareness was impared, I dunno, hindsight doesn't help sometimes.

My question for you Frank is do you still have the same fighting ethic you have on the mats as you do when it happens for real? Have you a stronger strategy in your head for a wallet mugging?

Thanks,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## stickarts (May 5, 2006)

I would have to say my mind set is different. on the mats, you are learning together and don't really want to hurt anyone.
if someone is trying to maim or kill you, it comes down to survival, them or you. You do what it takes to win.
you do everything you can to avoid the confrontation, if unavoidable, you do whatever it takes to win it.
Hopefully one has the opportunity to subdue without harming.


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## Kacey (May 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey there Kacey
> 
> Thank you for your reply. And yes, the pre-emptive strike will turn me into the attacker. My question to you: is there ever a case where this is NOT a bad thing?


 
It's not a bad thing if you're right, and you really were at risk... but what if you're not?  Awareness and avoidance are the key - the first level of pre-emptive strike is avoid the situation in the first place; the second level is to be aware that you are at risk in a situation and leave.  If neither of those are possible, then you need to be prepared to defend yourself - now, are there times when you might (physically) be better off attacking first?  Possibly... but it's highly unlikely that you are going to be better off legally, because a pre-emptive strike leaves you at risk for becoming the legal attacker, and then anything your opponent does, up to a point, might fall under self-defense, depending on the situation.

I'll also say this - granting that I lead a fairly quiet life, and don't often go into situations where self-defense is required, I have learned to be more aware of my surroundings than I used to be.  In college, I used to walk around campus wearing headphones and reading a book, with just enough attention on what I was doing and where I was going to avoid running into people and solid objects (trees, building, etc.).  I was a prime target, a victim waiting to be attacked.  Now I no longer do such things, and my risk of being attacked has decreased immensely - so in that sense, I consider avoidance and awareness to be a pre-emptive strike.  As far as the question I think you're really asking - I suppose there are some situations in which one might need to strike first rather than waiting to be attacked, but as I said before, they are so individual that I cannot give a specific example; it depends too much on the details of the situation and the people involved.  I find it to be more likely to need to attack before being attacked in a situation which involves someone who had attacked you before - for example, I was, some years ago, stalked and harassed by a man I refused to date, and ended up filing a restraining order; depending on your definition, filing the order was a pre-emptive strike because, unlike many of the other filers (all women) who filed the day that I did, I had never been struck by the person who was stalking me - nor was I going to wait until he did.  There are certain circumstances in which I might have physically attacked him had he come near me - luckily, that did not happen, but I did have a plan in case it did, especially as he had been a competitive karateka when he was younger (at the national level), and was over a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than I was.  But that's the only time in the 19 years I've been in TKD that I've even considered such a thing.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> Me? I am not an attacker. My art is not an attacking art, there are few techniques designed that way. On the other hand, the threat at this stage may be imagined.
> 
> The situation can be taken as a real physical threat. Or it may be my hypersensitivity. I cannot tell exactly which is why I am keen for a strategy that will neither render me open nor turn me into the aggressor.


 
Only you are close enough to this situation to determine if becoming the aggressor will be necessary.  Not knowing more about the situation, I can only suggest that you be wary, and, if appropriate, consider legal action against this person as a preventative; if you contact the authorities about your concerns now, and something does happen that causes you to damage this person, there will then be a record of previous concern, which won't help during any actual altercation, but could help should you need to legal support later.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> I'm not certain if you are familiar but in that respect, I keep thinking of Michael Douglas in Falling Down?? At the end his character asks "I'M the bad guy? How did that happen?"
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt
> Jenna



I have seen that movie, and I know what you mean - sometimes events move around us and we end up in situations not of our own making, but that seem otherwise from the outside.  

Good luck to you, and hopefully you are paranoid rather than correct - but just remember:  Just because I'm paranoid DOES NOT mean that they're not out to get me.


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## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> Firstly, Jenna, forgive me for not replying to your charming intro thread.Hi, I'm elder999, curmudgeonly mad scientist (really!) and near lifelong martial artist, with, sadly, a little bit of real, off-mats, outside confrontations.
> 
> I understand that you're traveling alone, but maybe you have a companion. First off, I'd say _listen to the what the voices in your head tell you._ If you sense impending trouble, pay attention, and try to get away from it, unless we're talking about some undercurrent of
> non-specific free-form anxiety. Someday you should read Gavin DeBecker's _The Gift of Fear_; it tells us that people who sense impending trouble are usually right......or on drugs, or off their meds.:lol:
> ...


Hi there mister Elder999 
999?? Did you know, for emergency services in the UK we don't dial 911 but rather 999. I am indeed hoping this is not an emergency but the imagining of an addled mind perhaps. I'm inclined to listen to what you say having read some of your erudite posts as a visitor to this site previously. 

The voices in the head? Well, yes, they're definitely saying run, or at least walk away quickly. The legs however are asking where to exactly miss-oh-so-smart?

The pre-empt advice frightens me a little. Not because of any legalities. But because I am the person who carries a wrench or screwdriver for servicing discs and calipers. I do not feel capable of carrying tools like these for any other purpose. 

It's a little hard to explain but if I pre-empt and get it wrong I make things go very bad indeed. If I wait and react I risk not being sufficiently quick, or missing the target.

Is there a working compromise that you can think of? Thank you.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## green meanie (May 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Ok, enoughpiffle* - a simple question*: usingyour MA in a real, off-mats or outside confrontation, at what point in your opponents initial move do you make your opening? How long do you wait before you unleash your counter technique?


 
Okay, here's my take on this. If you _see_ or _know _someone coming at you and they're coming with bad intentions. _DO NOT_ wait for them to get to you. The bad intentions _ARE_ the attack. That _WAS_ the first move. Don't allow them to make another. Put on your war face and go forward. You pick the place and when you get there strike first, strike hard, strike fast, and you don't stop until you've beaten the will to fight right out of them.

:asian:


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## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Many would say a few seconds shy of three minutes.
> 
> Frock coat, frilly cuffs and herringbone skirt? Don't tease, my dear. We're professionals here
> 
> As to the meat of the post, you don't. The crux of the problem will lie in the emotional content of the individuals involved. You are, hopefully, training to move calmly and deliberately. Oftentimes, an attacker will be running a little steamier, higher on adreneline and considerably less controlled. That is a high upper hand that martial artist has in a conflict.


 
I really, really like that Mister Egg. Thank you for it 

Yes I am confident I can throw people around. I'm doubting myself though that what I can do really equates with what I NEED to do - if what I can do is enough? Do you ever have those doubts Mister Egg?

I have little trouble controlling adrenaline, believe it or not it's a medical condition I have  that I'm sure is of no relevance. Point is, I'm strangely calm under perceived stress which is an odd benefit arising from a medical malpractice... But still, I am sensing a threat and am concerned that the "upper hand" you refer to will not be enough.

As I say, I don't want to sound all hyper like I'm running around checking all the windows here. *shivers*

Bigger opponents are one thing - we take our chances with those mismatches. What do you do Mister Egg when the only conclusion you can draw is that you are outgunned from the outset? Does that cloud your judgement? Are you more inclined to be pre-emptive? Or do you wait in a place of calm and yet have a harder strategy for your eventual counter? 

Thank you.

And yes, I'm experiencing a problem with my vwls. I'm on a real slow old laptop bought before they had vwls on kbds and I'm struggling to link my way through pages, bouncing my signal out of Colombia and lord knows where and retyping everything in between, so please don't drw @tt3nt10n to my m1ss1ng v0w3ls

Anyway I'm part of the txt generation I cant spel nor can i put 2gethr NE propr sntnses - welcome to the future!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna


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## tshadowchaser (May 5, 2006)

I qtess it would depnd on what occured to cause the situation and my knowing there was no escape from violence.  
I have never struck the first blow but I have posistioned myslef without raiseing my hands or or showing a  agressive body posistion  so as to be able to protect myslef
Givineing one slef a little room or lessening your own body suface that can be attacked is always a good thought.
Now if the situation is one where you will most likely be in danger of life or limb then hell yes take the first shot


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## KenpoTex (May 5, 2006)

If you have determined that there is an imminent threat to your safety and de-escalation or escape are not options, you can, and should, preempt with an attack of your own.  It would be stupid to wait for the person to actually launch his/her attack.  Remember, action beats reaction.  

Preempting the attack does not make you the agressor, you're still responding to an articulable threat to your safety.  You're just not waiting for him to throw the punch, lunge with the knife, or pull the trigger.


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## still learning (May 6, 2006)

Hello, Sometimes it is best to attack first...no two situtions will be the same...got to trust your instincts here.

Two thoughts,  wait and counter or hit first..especially if the attacker is not backing down.

Most of us do not want to get into a fight...so we hold back.....But there will be times...in the "art of war"....it will always be an advantage to hit first!

In most fights..the person hitting first will have the advantage..especially when you do not want to get into a fight. The attacker knows what he wants to do to you.

Know your state laws on this....many times the person who hits first will get arrested, but if your life or your family was in danger...and your reaction was to attack first..because of there/his intend...than the law may be on your side.

NO right or wrong...just using what your instincts tells you to do..if need to react first...go for it!   ....remember the first striking person will always have the advantage......Just my thoughts on this....Aloha

PS:You can always run away in stead of staying around...? for something to happen...don't let it happen!


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> I'll also say this - granting that I lead a fairly quiet life, and don't often go into situations where self-defense is required, I have learned to be more aware of my surroundings than I used to be. In college, I used to walk around campus wearing headphones and reading a book, with just enough attention on what I was doing and where I was going to avoid running into people and solid objects (trees, building, etc.). I was a prime target, a victim waiting to be attacked. Now I no longer do such things, and my risk of being attacked has decreased immensely - so in that sense, I consider avoidance and awareness to be a pre-emptive strike. As far as the question I think you're really asking - I suppose there are some situations in which one might need to strike first rather than waiting to be attacked, but as I said before, they are so individual that I cannot give a specific example; it depends too much on the details of the situation and the people involved. I find it to be more likely to need to attack before being attacked in a situation which involves someone who had attacked you before - for example, I was, some years ago, stalked and harassed by a man I refused to date, and ended up filing a restraining order; depending on your definition, filing the order was a pre-emptive strike because, unlike many of the other filers (all women) who filed the day that I did, I had never been struck by the person who was stalking me - nor was I going to wait until he did. There are certain circumstances in which I might have physically attacked him had he come near me - luckily, that did not happen, but I did have a plan in case it did, especially as he had been a competitive karateka when he was younger (at the national level), and was over a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than I was. But that's the only time in the 19 years I've been in TKD that I've even considered such a thing.


Hello Kacey, What you have said is super and thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it a lot  Regarding avoidance as a key to preemption, I agree completely. How you describe making improvements in situational awareness - the headphones and stuff, I can relate to that. You sound very very intelligent and Iam certain you will understand the difference between avoiding a situation by not being there in the first place and trying on the other hand to avoid a situation which seems to be active in seeking you out? I have taken off my proverbial headphones. I listen for sounds and watch for signs. I do all that but still, in the practical sense for me, I feel my options for avoidance are diminishing in number by the day. I like Belgium, I love chocolate more than I can tell ya  but I am not here as a tourist.

For the last few days I've been receiving lots of frankly quite peculiar text messages - anonymous andno number. I didn't know that could be done. The annoying thing is that the texts are just saying stuff like "is the wrld treatn u well?" and "hope 2 cu soon" and "jst keep smilin" and I don't know if it's meant as a joke. But if so, the timing's really really not so good for me. Yesterday as I was leaving my room key at the reception I was handed a letter - addressed to me as a visitor at the hotel and posted near here in Antwerp. It was empty. I called up my friends back in London but no one admits to pranking me and I have heard rumours of rumours of trouble on the move if you know what I mean. And I'm thinking now that I should go home but I'm wondering if that will be an even more stupid idea? I've got family back home but nobody close and nobody I can call up that'd be of any practical help. This is MY problem and my mess and I can only assume my stupid fault. I'm trying not to be morbid, I'm not usually a morbid person and I've checked the train timetables to take me further south into Liege. 

Kacey, how far do YOU go to avoid? There's a line from Star Trek - yeah I know stop groaning  but it's after a beating has been handed out already. The line is "This far and no further!" I suppose it's the essence of the Taiji symbol, you know, the yin and yang, the soft and giving outer with the hard core. How far into the pliable outer do you go before hitting the unyielding core? 

I don't like fights I really dont. I'm trying my best to avoid but I am concerned that the trouble is coming regardless. DO I tell myself my outer layers have been breached and I am at the core imminently and face the trouble head on? Do I became the aggressor?. I am confident in my Aikido. But at the minute I do not feel confident in my ability to work it. I am the weak link in the chain and the faulty cog in the machine. DO I wait for my opponent's opening adn if so, for how long? Is there an optimum time to make a move? 

Too many questions Jenna, too many questions. If I'm not making myself very clear I apologise. You are an angel for replying. Your advice is great Kacey and is helping to crystallise a strategy for me.

Thank you very very much 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

To not so mean green meanie , tshadowchaser , kenpotex , still learning 

Guys thank you so much for helping with this. I like your thinking a lot and some of those words you have taken the time to relay are really resonating true and are as though illuminated by neon in front of my eyes. I wish I could call you up and have you right here. You boys have got some major scary-tough going on and I could do with some scary-tough on MY side as I haven't got so much of my own  OK, I know, I know, my insecurity is causing me to confuse typing with caring, LOL. But I know you'll forgive me for that. And I'll believe what I want of you all and paint my mental pictures anyway! 

OK, well I don't want to be riding the morose train all the way to the terminal, I just want to thank you all again for your strategies - some really cut through the blubber like acid and I feel -and I'm sure it's obvious- I have far too much blubber in my head already  Acid clarity is good for me. I am indebted to you all. :asian: 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## frank raud (May 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hi there mister Elder999
> 999?? Did you know, for emergency services in the UK we don't dial 911 but rather 999. I am indeed hoping this is not an emergency but the imagining of an addled mind perhaps. I'm inclined to listen to what you say having read some of your erudite posts as a visitor to this site previously.
> 
> The voices in the head? Well, yes, they're definitely saying run, or at least walk away quickly. The legs however are asking where to exactly miss-oh-so-smart?
> ...


 

In a previous post, you had mentioned being boxed in, unable to retreat, up against a wall, etc. The intentions of someone who would set you up in that position should be obvious, so I don't see much problem in attacking. Actually, at that point, I wouldn't consider it pre-emptive, because whatever is going to happen, IS already happening, and your(my) awareness and self preservation has failed to kick in on time.

Making an assumption here, but I will assume the imminent attack is not an associate of yours? Either way, you have the right of self preservation, and may have to become physically assertive(doesn't that sound better than beating the tar out of someone?).

PS If you don't pre-empt and things go wrong, are you in a position to quickly re-gain the upper hand in a physical confrontation?  Not in your described scenario.


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

frank raud said:
			
		

> In a previous post, you had mentioned being boxed in, unable to retreat, up against a wall, etc. The intentions of someone who would set you up in that position should be obvious, so I don't see much problem in attacking. Actually, at that point, I wouldn't consider it pre-emptive, because whatever is going to happen, IS already happening, and your(my) awareness and self preservation has failed to kick in on time.
> 
> Making an assumption here, but I will assume the imminent attack is not an associate of yours? Either way, you have the right of self preservation, and may have to become physically assertive(doesn't that sound better than beating the tar out of someone?).
> 
> PS If you don't pre-empt and things go wrong, are you in a position to quickly re-gain the upper hand in a physical confrontation? Not in your described scenario.


Hi there frank raud 

Thanks for chipping in some more good points. When I say boxed in, I mean it in the wider sense. I mean that I have actively taken myself out of the game by way of avoidance but am still concerned that the game is seeking me out. I have avoided by retreat I think almost as far as I can go. At this stage, there's a sense of metaphorical claustrophobia though nothing physical thusfar. However as I said earlier, I think the timing idea -react or pre-empt- applies equally whether the threat is physical or mental. And I'm sorry to be obtuse.

I take your point though that you wouldn't consider an application at that stage as pre-emptive but that it's rather a reaction to a certainty.

Can I ask you then is there an argument that to pre-empt would be wrong if you're not confident in your ability to bring the confrontation to a finish? Might it be better to wait for the attack and risk a counter rather than go on the offensive and risk an escalation that might lead to even more serious trouble? I hope I am getting this across sufficiently clearly 

Thank you again!
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## frank raud (May 6, 2006)

Basic physics. Reaction is slower than action. If you are not sure you can finish an encounter by pre-empting, how can you gain anything by waiting?

It is obvious this is coming from a female, every time an answer is given, the parameters change a little.

Eeven if not boxed in, physically or metaphorically, you have retreated as far as you believe you are able,puts you in the same position, no?

Is your concern in this situation the ethics of being pre-emptive/ Or the presumption it is not ladylike? (I will probably get flamed for that last comment).


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## frank raud (May 6, 2006)

May or may not be relevant to this discussion, but a well known RBSD instructor suggests that when a situation arises, that verbal commands be given(assuming time allows). First command, firmly stated, "Back up!" if someone is getting to close without reason or permission. It next escalates to the use of swearing, not to insult the potential BG, but to get his attention, as it is something they will respond to" Back the **** up", not "Back up, ************", third time louder, same as second. At this point, even if you have not been physically attacked, you can prove you tried to avoid the situation, and were defending yourself. 100% guaranteed in a court of law? nope, but the values of self preservation and the laws of self defense don't always align.


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## Rich Parsons (May 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my lovely peeps!
> 
> It was horribly rainy this evening in Bruges. The sky descended to little above head height. I've never been in weather like that before. I said to someone that everything looked all sort of Matrix green - "Vert comme la Matrice" ... "Grün wie die Matrix??" ... Es gibt keinen löffel???? but they just looked at me like I needed a hug. And I probably do. Its like this, I'm debating what to do with myself. Run off and hide in a corner til the stars are in proper alignment or come out right now with bootblack on my cheekbones and phasers set to kill?
> 
> ...



Jenna,

First off it sounds like there is more going on then a defensive or pre-emptive question can answer. As I am not looking to get into your personal life I will wish you the best, and hope this can help you out in pondering your options.


In many martial arts, there is a teaching of self-defense or non aggression. That the art is not supposed to be used unless one is defending themselves. 

This is good for most people and also helps to build better moral character.

Yet when on the street, and you are in it and unavoidable then sometimes a posturing attempt or pre-emptive strike is in order. 

But is this not against the inner peace to be taught of the art one studies?

Yes and No. 

You are in a spot you have one guy in front of you with another just off to his side. The one in front is tall and is taller then you while the second guy is much shorter then you. So while the first guy is posturing and getting in your face the second guy is there to make the sucker punch. (* Yes I have lived this before  *)  Well as I was telling the taller guy to go for it, in essence calling his bluff and posturing with my own posturing, the second guy balls up his fist. (* One must be aware of your surroundings. Do not tunnel vision in on the immediate problem for other problems will sneak up on you and make it worse. *) I reach out and slapped the punk acros the face. Yes I reached out and slapped the punk across the face. This brought my hands up into a more defensive position and a more aggresive posture if you will. The smaller punk yelled, "You hit me!, I am only 17, see this guy hit me and I am a minor." Before I could speak another man in the crowd spoke out and said, "I saw a man ***** slap a boy for trying to attack him."

The crowd was on my side now as I had not devastated anyone but shown I was willing to make contact, and was not backing down. 

They postured some more and yelled but they had stepped back away from me and were heading towards their vehicle. 

After they left a young man asked me why I let them leave after calling me all those names. I replied, "They are gone, I am still working here. I am not hurt. There are no police involved. and their name calling did me no harm."

So the pre-emptive strike even though was not a strike to take them out permanently it was still a pre-emptive strike for contact had not been made. 

Yet I argue that the moment they declared their hostile intentions toward me, they had lost concern for issues such as is it right to pre-emptive strike or not. 

I made a lot of decisions like this. I had to decide instantly if such a move would end it now or if it would make it worse. 

In another case, one guy hit himself in the chest while yelling, "Are you Talking to me?". He then hit himself in the head. This is to bring is adrenaline up and get edorphines running so he will nto feel my counter shot if I get one after he attacks me. Well after his second attack on himself, I popped him in the nose and front kicked to the groin. I replied. "Yes I am talking to you. Next?" (* Yes a little arrogance and also posturing to his friends to let them know I was waiting for them to move. *) Once again contact made to him before it was made to me. But I knew the fight was one, it was a matter of time and his choosing, so I decided to make it a manner of my time and choosing. 

The problem with this is that one has to be willing to follow through with the posture or the minor pre-emptive strike with all out strike warfare. If anyone is not ready for that then it is something I believe should be avoided. 

Now all my stories are not this lucky or this one sided either. 

There once was this group of ten guys who were bother and one might say assualting a female employee of mine. I aksed them to leave and ave them room to walk out. They stopped on the way out, and went after another employee. I stepped up and told them to leave again. (* They had all lost sight of me. Fools *) So we get out side and this guy starts running his mouth, and makes the comment that, "Ill be back!" to which I replied "Dude, you got ten guys and just me, if you cannot take me now, do not come back when I wil ahv friends and back up here." He had his hand in his pocket and was about 6 feet away with one of his friends almost in between us. The barrel of the gun became real evident in his baggy pants as he pointed it at me through his pants and was pulling back to clear his pocket. I could not reach it to keep it in check it was already pointed at me. I grabbed his friend and did a body, neck lock to use him as a body shield. His friend is screaming I was going to break his neck. Not that possible where I was at, but he did not know. So he said, "put the gun down."

Not fun staring down the barrel of an auto pistle. 

I yell for the guy a the door to close the door and be inside and lock it. Also to call the cops and ambulance. (* I expected I would have needed one, but was still trying to limit the colatterial damage done to others nearby. I was the fool now. *) 

After what seemed liked forever (* have someone mad at you point a load gun to your face area even if you are hiding behind one of his friends, each second is way too long. *), but was most likely a minute at best, the guy with teh guy put it back into his pocket pulled his hand out and they all went to their vehicles. I let the guy go once there were large obsticales between me and  the guy with the gun. The guy I was holding had jeans on that were tight and a tight shirt, and I had been real close to him so I knew he did nto have one on him. They get to their cars and then roll to leave, but stopp just before leaving and ask me if I want to go now? I tell I am going to kill you! as I charge the truck he is in, with three guys in the front and he is straight in front of me. I moved to his back side swinging a set of keys to hit his hand if it came out the window while tryng to just the "B" pillar of the cab as cover and also prohibit his movement. The drive of the truck was more concerned with the paint job of his truck then seing me get hurt, so he took off out of the parking lot and through the ditch. 

I got lucky and survived. That guy had a bigger posture then I had on me. Not sure if he was willing to bring it , but it is too easy to make a mistake with a 7- 15 lb trigger pull. 

I have other stories where I survived, but got beat on, although I brought it to them at that point. Even with 5 or 6 of them I would take it to them with all I had. 

So, it gets better with experience, but you need the experience and mistakes to get better. Not recommended for survival, yet if the situation is much different they dealing with gang members or street thugs, then one can read reactiosn accordingly, and take a guess there. 

So yes I believe in the pre-emptive strike for this reason and also from my experience I got hurt less in the long run even with those big scares and when things went bad. But I knew that possibility when I stepped into it. 


I am not sure if any of this helps. Good Luck



Just remember: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Rush - Freewill


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## tshadowchaser (May 6, 2006)

> Yesterday as I was leaving my room key at the reception I was handed a letter - addressed to me as a visitor at the hotel and posted near here in Antwerp. It was empty


 
That statement and the act that you are getting strang text messages tells me that someone may be stalking you. I don't know exactly what to tell you to do about it excpt change you phone number and be awear o who is around you all of the time.  when you go out notice the people in the lobby and as you walk down the street look in a store window the carefuly look around to see if you see any of the same faces. 
 i hope you did not distroy the envolope that was handed to you, pu tit ina plastic container and if you get another you may need to go to the local police and ask what the stalking laws are in that area ( if any). You may need to have a record of the text messages as well just so the police know that you may be in danger.  someone out there knows who and where you are.
Be careful this may be a prank but it could be somethin bigger
You may want to discuss this in the LLR also not just in this open area


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## MJS (May 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my lovely peeps!
> 
> It was horribly rainy this evening in Bruges. The sky descended to little above head height. I've never been in weather like that before. I said to someone that everything looked all sort of Matrix green - "Vert comme la Matrice" ... "Grün wie die Matrix??" ... Es gibt keinen löffel???? but they just looked at me like I needed a hug. And I probably do. Its like this, I'm debating what to do with myself. Run off and hide in a corner til the stars are in proper alignment or come out right now with bootblack on my cheekbones and phasers set to kill?
> 
> ...


 
Here are a few things that you may find interesting:

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/rbma/use_of_force.html

http://sfuk.tripod.com/articles/3secfight.html

One thing to keep in mind is to be aware of what is happening.  Keeping your hands up in a non-threatening manner, while still providing yourself with the ability to launch a strike or block certainly does not make you the aggressor.  If the person facing you begins to make movements towards you, and you're finding that words are no longer working, in an attempt to defuse the situation, he is the aggressor, not you.  Watching his body language is important here.  If the person is going to punch you, your defense needs to begin as he's drawing back, not when the punch is already half way towards your face.

Mike


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> 
> First off it sounds like there is more going on then a defensive or pre-emptive question can answer. As I am not looking to get into your personal life I will wish you the best, and hope this can help you out in pondering your options.
> 
> ...


 
Hello Rich,
You know, this is fantastic to read, if only to make me wish I had your fighting confidence and your brass neck. Your pre-empts are exceptional. Believe me Rich, if I could work it like you I'd not be asking. You look like a strong guy Rich in your photograph and yes I checked out Balintawak and I know what you guys can do but to hear that even a guy like you that has all those techniques imprinted through your muscles can miss a gear and end up at the open end of a gun doesn't give me confidence in myself as someone who is neither a natural born killer nor big and mean enough to front like I was.

I'm thinking as I read what you said. Imagine that firearm scrape you escaped from, imagine that's not you being attacked, imagine that's someone else - one of your female employees instead as you said, imagine you can be the little coaching voice in their head. What will you say Rich? What is your advice? 

I am listening to what you are saying Rich, I really am. Your insight is particularly important to me as it is not of parables but of real life events. I hope you are reading. I have made my move. I have taken the cowards way, I am on the train south and yes I have the chess analogy in my head that just because the queen moves, the game is still afoot right up until the king is taken.

Thank you,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> That statement and the act that you are getting strang text messages tells me that someone may be stalking you. I don't know exactly what to tell you to do about it excpt change you phone number and be awear o who is around you all of the time. when you go out notice the people in the lobby and as you walk down the street look in a store window the carefuly look around to see if you see any of the same faces.
> i hope you did not distroy the envolope that was handed to you, pu tit ina plastic container and if you get another you may need to go to the local police and ask what the stalking laws are in that area ( if any). You may need to have a record of the text messages as well just so the police know that you may be in danger. someone out there knows who and where you are.
> Be careful this may be a prank but it could be somethin bigger
> You may want to discuss this in the LLR also not just in this open area


Hey there tshadowchaser  Thank you for your concern, it is sincerely appreciated. I spoke with the local police this morning but they just sort of shrugged in that apathetic way they do here, "what would you have us do about that?" was the reassurance from the duty officer. I truly have no answer to that. It was somewhat condescendingly though politely suggested that I "retourner a votre pays de résidence" ie. go home. This isn't such a good option for me. I left the envelope with them but I get the impression it will have subsequently gone in the bin.

Thank you for your advice. I am heeding it all.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Rich Parsons (May 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello Rich,
> You know, this is fantastic to read, if only to make me wish I had your fighting confidence and your brass neck. Your pre-empts are exceptional. Believe me Rich, if I could work it like you I'd not be asking. You look like a strong guy Rich in your photograph and yes I checked out Balintawak and I know what you guys can do but to hear that even a guy like you that has all those techniques imprinted through your muscles can miss a gear and end up at the open end of a gun doesn't give me confidence in myself as someone who is neither a natural born killer nor big and mean enough to front like I was.
> 
> I'm thinking as I read what you said. Imagine that firearm scrape you escaped from, imagine that's not you being attacked, imagine that's someone else - one of your female employees instead as you said, imagine you can be the little coaching voice in their head. What will you say Rich? What is your advice?
> ...




Cowardice is not the words I would use or the way I would describe Intelligence to avoid conflict.

What would one of the women done? Not sure. What Advice? Do not be there.  If there then do not go with them, but get away. Use what you have, to get away, and to survive. To survive is not cowardice. 

I will give more thought on this. 

My posts were not to try to make you feel bad, or to brag. It was to allow you and others some insights into what worked and what sometimes did not.


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## green meanie (May 6, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Cowardice is not the words I would use or the way I would describe Intelligence to avoid conflict.


 
Agreed!!! :asian:


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## Kacey (May 6, 2006)

Jenna - 

If you have contacted the police and they have blown you off (and it certainly sounds like they have), you have at least reached a point where you have made the police aware of a potential problem.  I would also suggest that you contact your cell phone service provider about the anonymous text messages.  It's possible that they can either trace past messages, or put some kind of trace on your phone to trace similar messages in the future; I know it's possible for land lines (I've had to have it done), and I imagine it would be possible for cell phones as well.   Talk to the front desk of the hotel about the anonymous message, and ask them to take careful note of anyone who leaves anything for you (if this person had sent text messages and snail mail, there's a possibility that a personal delivery could be next).  The more people (and especially those in your immediate vicinity, like the hotel staff) that you contact about this problem, the more likely it is that someone will notice if someone is hanging around looking for you, or if something unusual happens.  Even if they think your concerns are groundless, it will make them more aware if something unusual does happen.

Good luck and safety to you.


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Cowardice is not the words I would use or the way I would describe Intelligence to avoid conflict.
> 
> What would one of the women done? Not sure. What Advice? Do not be there. If there then do not go with them, but get away. Use what you have, to get away, and to survive. To survive is not cowardice.
> 
> ...


 
Hey there big Rich 
Man, your posts don't make me feel bad, no sir. They reverberate with truth and clarity. It is me that's at fault because I am envious of those who can do what I can never hope to. I'm always willing to learn though which is why I am maybe getting stuck in a loop of asking questions.

Thank you again for your advice and help. Believe me, it is appreciated 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> Jenna -
> 
> If you have contacted the police and they have blown you off (and it certainly sounds like they have), you have at least reached a point where you have made the police aware of a potential problem. I would also suggest that you contact your cell phone service provider about the anonymous text messages. It's possible that they can either trace past messages, or put some kind of trace on your phone to trace similar messages in the future; I know it's possible for land lines (I've had to have it done), and I imagine it would be possible for cell phones as well. Talk to the front desk of the hotel about the anonymous message, and ask them to take careful note of anyone who leaves anything for you (if this person had sent text messages and snail mail, there's a possibility that a personal delivery could be next). The more people (and especially those in your immediate vicinity, like the hotel staff) that you contact about this problem, the more likely it is that someone will notice if someone is hanging around looking for you, or if something unusual happens. Even if they think your concerns are groundless, it will make them more aware if something unusual does happen.
> 
> Good luck and safety to you.


Thank you Kacey, my angel 
I have heeded your advice. The mobile (cellphone) went in the bin. I got another one here cheap so I'm free of those shackles. I have made my closest friends aware at home. But I hate to have people worried unnecessarily. I mean, all my Aikido friends and old workmates are family guys and nobody needs this stuff. Anyway. I'll not go on. I fear this thread has gone badly awry because of me and has become nothing more than a wholly self-centred discussion. I apologise for that. I think I am overtaken by curcumstances and hope that you all understand. But thank you again Kacey for your valuable practical advice, this is an immeasurably helpful thing to have in my not so scary-tough arsenal.

Yr most hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## tshadowchaser (May 6, 2006)

Jenna,
 This thread has not gone awry but has taken a change of dirrection and become one that many are reading and trying to help in.  We are not fighters, and grapplers here, we are people who truely care about our fellow members and wish the best to those who may be haveing problems.
Never be afraid to ask for advice or to ask questions of us.


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> This thread has not gone awry but has taken a change of dirrection and become one that many are reading and trying to help in. We are not fighters, and grapplers here, we are people who truely care about our fellow members and wish the best to those who may be haveing problems.
> Never be afraid to ask for advice or to ask questions of us.


You can have no idea what that means to hear, my friend :asian: 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## green meanie (May 6, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> We are not fighters, and grapplers here, we are people who truely care about our fellow members and wish the best to those who may be haveing problems.


 
And of course, those of us who are fighters and grapplers, also truly care about our fellow members and wish them the best as well.


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## Carol (May 6, 2006)

Jenna,

This may or may not be of help.  You've had a lot of real martial artists talking to you about how and when to take action.  I don't have that kind of expereince.

The only risky situations that I have been in are situations I faced before starting in martial arts.  Suffice it to say, I most certainly had no fighting skills, in terms of a physical side.  I did wriggle myself out of a few bad situations with mental tactics.  

I did a lot of stupid stuff when I played music professionally.   I was a 20-something year old girl, dressed to get attention (for the stage, of course), and schlepping around $2000 worth of musical equipment outside shady bars at 2:30 AM.  Last call, bar is closed, band packs up.  When I've been approached by some people that probably had bad intent, my reaction to them was to act like a lunatic.  That was pretty easy for me to pull off.  I'm a stage performer, I don't drink, and by that hour of the morning I was so punchy that I sounded insane whether I was or not.   Sometimes I just run on instinct, and as far as I can tell, my instinct has never lead me wrong. 

One guy came up to me and started talking me up...I thought for a second he looked like my drummer's brother, so I yelled at the top of my lungs "Hey Tony!  Where are you hiding!  Gary's out here!  Come out!"   He took off.  Stupid stuff, but it worked.  Looking back with "older eyes" sometimes I wonder if it was skill or dumb luck that never got me in to a skirmish.

That may work with a stranger, I don't know if it will work with someone you know...becuase that is a different threat altogether.  The only time I faced a bad situation with someone that I knew is with an old room mate.  (just a room mate, we were not lovers).  His mental health went sharply on the decline.  I arrived home one night and every nerve in me told me to run...and run I did.  I flew out of the house, took a zig zag way to the car, drove to a friend's house and crashed out on her sofa.  Let me just say that I later learned that it was a very good thing that I was not home last night.  

I cannot say what is best for you...but I don't think I'm steering you wrong in saying...if your instincts are telling you not to go home, don't.

I hope you are OK, and I hope you keep us posted.   I wish the UK wasn't so bloody far away, otherwise I could point you to some safe places to go.  

Please keep us posted, and keep posting.


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## Jenna (May 7, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> 
> This may or may not be of help. You've had a lot of real martial artists talking to you about how and when to take action. I don't have that kind of expereince.
> 
> ...


 
Hey there lovely Carol 
Wow you're a muso! I'm impressed and I'd be a fool not to be impressed with your intelligence and your exceptional lateral thinking in ridding yourself of unwanted attention. A creative person right to the wire! That's super. Your exit strategies are something else. I am making little mental notes and picturing you lugging your amps and cases out of clubs. Yeah, I'm hearing stupid and twentysomething and I'm looking vacantly at the backs of my hands like someone else in class is being told off...

Don't get me wrong Carol, I'm no smart or sassy dresser. But when it comes to the wrong type of attention, I seem to bring it on myself just by being me *sighs*. I have trouble tempering who I am - it's difficult to change and overturn who we are and how we act, no? 

Can I pick you up on your room mate situation? You crashed out on your girl friend's sofa. In the morning were things different? I'm reading that some bad stuff happened subsequent to your leaving. Had your room mate gone the following morning or been brought into care? I ask because I suppose I am "crashing out" albeit on my own and in a foreign hotel. If I thought my "room mate" had been sectioned I'd be happy to pack up and go home. Is your room mate still around? And if so, are you active in avoiding and how do you do that?

Thank you so much for your reply. To me Carol, your thoughts constitute another cartridge for my belt. As you can see, I have been given many different cartridges from all the lovely Martial Talk people already. I'm certainly no gunslinger but if I feel I have enough ammo to hold the fort for a while, I'm doing better than I could have hoped for at this stage 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Carol (May 7, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey there lovely Carol
> Wow you're a muso! I'm impressed and I'd be a fool not to be impressed with your intelligence and your exceptional lateral thinking in ridding yourself of unwanted attention. A creative person right to the wire! That's super. Your exit strategies are something else. I am making little mental notes and picturing you lugging your amps and cases out of clubs. Yeah, I'm hearing stupid and twentysomething and I'm looking vacantly at the backs of my hands like someone else in class is being told off...
> 
> Don't get me wrong Carol, I'm no smart or sassy dresser. But when it comes to the wrong type of attention, I seem to bring it on myself just by being me *sighs*. I have trouble tempering who I am - it's difficult to change and overturn who we are and how we act, no?


 
Jenna my friend,

Absolutely, and I'm not trying to imply that you are doing anything wrong.   You have an absolutely magnetic personality and I think in three or so days you have made friends with every single person on this board.  That's a great thing    Unfortunately there are a few rotten people in this world that respond to charisma in a bad way.  Bad poeple being bad people...they probably respond to a lot of things in a bad way.   I don't think there is a way around that.



> Can I pick you up on your room mate situation? You crashed out on your girl friend's sofa. In the morning were things different? I'm reading that some bad stuff happened subsequent to your leaving. Had your room mate gone the following morning or been brought into care? I ask because I suppose I am "crashing out" albeit on my own and in a foreign hotel. If I thought my "room mate" had been sectioned I'd be happy to pack up and go home. Is your room mate still around? And if so, are you active in avoiding and how do you do that?


 
It was a long, sad story.   He was a great guy, fresh out of college and working his frst job.  We got along fine until that bad night.  He didn't seem to mind having a room mate almost 15 years older, he wanted to know if I would help keep the place clean and the bills paid.  Well, that was easy.  

He did something with a woman his own age that got himself arrested.  He bailed himself out, but went in to custody the next day at his hearing where he was confined to a hospital.  The night I ran away, he left a cheque in an envelope saying it was for "pregnancy expenses".  I have the feeling that he was the one that wanted to do the impregnating, given how the earlier events stacked up.  He later said it was for the rent.

He did return home, and when he did, I was quite scared.  He had never done anything to harm me...but I didn't know what he would be like once he was out and dealing with the loss of his job.  I asked the police for a restraining order, they said they could not grant me one because he and I were never lovers.   I started looking at breaking my lease and just moving out...thinking that facing housing court would be better than facing my room mate.   

I ended up moving out to a different apartment.  I coudn't afford movers, so I packed up as much as my Honda could hold, and moved it out, one trip at a time.  When I had to move the big stuff, I let him know, and had a few friends come in with a U-Haul to quickly move out the rest of my stuff.   We got in to an argument, exchanged some acidic words, but he never threatened me.  Soon after I got a call from him telling me about some outstanding bills and he said he was moving out of state as soon as his court matters cleared up, to a place where he had some friends and could probably find a job.  The issue never got sent to housing court.  I don't know where he is, don't care.

It wasn't quite a happily ever after story.  My then-boyfriend was a brilliant engineer, but had a slight physical handicap...and ended up getting very depressed at the notion that he couldn't do anything (ie: fight off the guy).  I was very crushed by this...fighting...was not something that I ever wanted or expected out of him...or anyone.  

The apartment that I moved in to was really out of my price range.  My boyfriend begged me to take it because it was very close to him, and offered my landlord a downpayment on the rent.  I get very uncomfortable about someone else trying to pay my way like that but...decided to take the apartment and felt that it was very important for me to be near him.

Not a great decision.  My finances got wrecked from trying to keep up the rent.  The relationship continued to slide, try as I did, I couldn't reach my bf in whatever crevasse he fell in to.  About 6 months later he visited me, and said that he loved me, but that he could never marry me, or anyone else...and...there was just no changing his mind.  A month later I asked him again to reconsider, he said no.  I'm at peace with the situation now, thinking it really was all for the best...but it was a high price to pay.

Not staying home flipped my life upside down even though he never physically hurt me.  There aren't easy answers, and all of the choices can potentially come with a high price.

If it is someone in your home that makes you scared, try going to a hospital if you run out of options.  Hospitals in the US are prepared for just such a crisis.  You may also want to try contacting a social worker or whatever your equivalent is there across the pond.  Sometimes its good to get lots of allies on your side.  If you have to use your skills, it is even better to have lots of allies on your side.



> Thank you so much for your reply. To me Carol, your thoughts constitute another cartridge for my belt. As you can see, I have been given many different cartridges from all the lovely Martial Talk people already. I'm certainly no gunslinger but if I feel I have enough ammo to hold the fort for a while, I'm doing better than I could have hoped for at this stage


 
I wish I could do more. 

I think if you look at your responses here you will find more than a few people that are a little worried about you my friend.   Please keep posting, even if it's just a quick line to say things are fine....or even if things aren't so fine.  If nothing else you have quite a few Yanks that are cheering for you.  

Stay safe, and stay strong.

Carol


----------



## Jenna (May 7, 2006)

Hey my lovely friend Carol 

Thank you for taking the time again to reply. And please accept that even though it might seem trivial to you typing on your keyboard, it's of some significance when it displays on my screen here  I'm sending a hug for thanks and for being an example to me and I hope you get it.



			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> He did something with a woman his own age that got himself arrested. He bailed himself out, but went in to custody the next day at his hearing where he was confined to a hospital. The night I ran away, he left a cheque in an envelope saying it was for "pregnancy expenses". I have the feeling that he was the one that wanted to do the impregnating, given how the earlier events stacked up. He later said it was for the rent.


Goodness. That story is more frightening than I can imagine. It really is. I can see you in that situation. Wow. And you kept your integrity too. You must have had to really mine the deep vein to come out the other side of that. Thank you so much for sharing.



			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Not staying home flipped my life upside down even though he never physically hurt me. There aren't easy answers, and all of the choices can potentially come with a high price.


Yes, but we act with the best intention as you did. You had a set of facts and properly determined priorities in which to deal and yeah, at no stage did anyone proffer those "special" facts with which we speak our clever hindsights and castigate ourselves in our "I should have known" moments. Those facts are hidden from us otherwise Carol life would be a breeze wouldn't it. Life would be one big freewheel bicycle trip down a lovely hill with no curves, no bumps, no unevenness or thorns. And certainly with no uphill sections.

Carol, you're a strong, strong lady and even that knowledge is a shield around me. To know the theory is great. To know that the sort of strength you mobilised in facing problems and yeah, breaking on through can be possible for real is like the magic carpet to the weary traveller. What can I say but a humble thank you. 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Carol (May 7, 2006)

Jenna you are very welcome. 

I'm lying on my couch right with a nasty fever, it's hard to imagine that my rambling could be any help to anyone.   Except my cat, perhaps.  He seems to enjoy the fact that I'm not doing anything today    But I'm totally humbled.  

One of my favorite lines from Star Trek was on my sig file for awhile. It was from Seven of Nine .  She was rescuing some beings that were getting their humanity back from cyborg hell when they became very afraid.  Her reaction...  "Ah, fear, a human emotion.  It's temporary."

Fear always is temporary.  You will get through this.


Hugs back to you 

Carol


----------



## Jenna (May 7, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Jenna you are very welcome.
> 
> I'm lying on my couch right with a nasty fever, it's hard to imagine that my rambling could be any help to anyone. Except my cat, perhaps. He seems to enjoy the fact that I'm not doing anything today  But I'm totally humbled.
> 
> ...


 
Hey there Carol the Music Maker 
Seven of Nine, wow, yeah that'd be a useful ally. But beauty, intelligence AND strength, those virtues could only ever be upheld by an automaton. Is this right? I think so. Of course the writers had to ensure she lacked something otherwise all hope for us mortals would be lost to the comparison. So they left off (or Borg'd out) her strong emotion. Making her more Spock-like I think ensured we retained some pride as viewers.

I tell ya Carol, of all screen baddies, the Borg scared me the most. REally and truly and it sort of resonates with me right now. There's just something about the relentlessness of the Borg and the manner of the assimilation that scares the backside outta me. You can pop drones 'til the cows come home but ultimately your "kills" are meaningless and resistance truly is futile. That's portentous. I'll get off that topic before I drive myself into the bathroom *shakes*

The impermanence of fear is a truth for certain, but that fact is difficult to realise when it is upon you. It is a powerful instinctual driving emotion that dulls logical thought and narrows the focus in the primal part of us.

You rest up that fever. No work for you tomorrow? I would hope not. Let them do without you for a day or two. Naturally then you can come on here and keep me company, LOL  Just joking. But remember the old adage: starve a cold, feed a fever (and give an aardvark little bits of chopped earthworms) Ha! Give your kittie a pet for me too!

Take good care now my friend from far too far away.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

I would like to say if you see it coming and can pre-empt it, absolutely do so!

Remember a fight hasn't begun when a puch is thrown. Once the vulgarities have started, and they're coming to you, or your space is invaded, with an aggresive movement, the fight has started. Treat it accordingly! They aren't coming all the way over, or invading your space, to give you a kiss.


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## Jenna (May 8, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> I would like to say if you see it coming and can pre-empt it, absolutely do so!
> 
> Remember a fight hasn't begun when a puch is thrown. Once the vulgarities have started, and they're coming to you, or your space is invaded, with an aggresive movement, the fight has started. Treat it accordingly! They aren't coming all the way over, or invading your space, to give you a kiss.


Hey Hand Sword 

Thank you for taking the time to reply! In your opinion, it's cut and dry? Is this correct? Imagine you're walking home of a winter's evening, you get the impression someone is following. You are not certain, footsteps maybe. Or maybe not. It's been a bad day, you've been getting it from all angles. You are not so sharp maybe. Certainly no one is jumping out at you and posturing in front of you let alone attempting to molest you. Do you lengthen your stride towards your destination or towards SOME destination? Or do you make fists or reach to your knife, stop, turn around and walk with deliberation towards this impression of portent?

I feel the "turning around" / pre-empt choice is not always available to all. You can maybe appreciate that for one not conversant with crocodiles, taking a job that requires placing one's head in the lizards big toothy gob has certain associated risks? Does that make sense? Please don't tell me I am weak for not wishing to become employed in that job Hand Sword san. 

A fast-track one-day course to a dogged fighting mindset would be most welcome. And only a fool would ask where it could be studied. So instead, I'll take any alternatives you may have experience of or thoughts on. Thank you again 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Hand Sword
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to reply! In your opinion, it's cut and dry? Is this correct? Imagine you're walking home of a winter's evening, you get the impression someone is following. You are not certain, footsteps maybe. Or maybe not. It's been a bad day, you've been getting it from all angles. You are not so sharp maybe. Certainly no one is jumping out at you and posturing in front of you let alone attempting to molest you. Do you lengthen your stride towards your destination or towards SOME destination? Or do you make fists or reach to your knife, stop, turn around and walk with deliberation towards this impression of portent?
> 
> ...


 
If your walking and feeling threatened Yes! Reach for your weapon, turn around and look, or go somewhere with a crowd. It is that cut and dry. If you were aware of an attack, did nothing, and waited to react to it, after it happened, that would be very foolish on your part. Action beats reaction!


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## Jenna (May 8, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> If your walking and feeling threatened Yes! Reach for your weapon, turn around and look, or go somewhere with a crowd. It is that cut and dry. If you were aware of an attack, did nothing, and waited to react to it, after it happened, that would be very foolish on your part. Action beats reaction!


Hey Hand Sword san 
That is a very active approach. Is there ever a case do you think where the odds of failure outweigh the benefits of being so pro-active in confrontation? I am guessing you are confident in your ability. Would you be able to put yourself in the shoes of someone who does not perhaps have that confidence? If so, would your mentoring be the same?

Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

I have been on both sides of this argument Mrs. Jenna. First I would say this: Pre-empting assumes a state of being aware of an impending attack beforehand. If this is so, and you do nothing, and just wait and see, then you deserve what happens. Reacting assumes a state of being caught off guard. This will happen! In that case, all you can do is react, which you will do, one way or another.

Confidence or not, I say the same for everyone. If you are aware of it, take some steps to deal with it. Sometimes turning around and noticing them will deter. They usually wait to catch you off guard. Put your hand while walking on your mace, knife, etc.. Let them pass by, watching them the whole time, cross the street, etc.. If your wrong..No big deal, nothing will have happened, and you could go on your way, as they did. If you are right, you'll be ready. 

Since it only comes down to one choice really, which is noticing it and then what.. What choice do you have? It's your physicall well being on the line. Do something to prepare for it.


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## Jenna (May 8, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> I have been on both sides of this argument Mrs. Jenna. First I would say this: Pre-empting assumes a state of being aware of an impending attack beforehand. If this is so, and you do nothing, and just wait and see, then you deserve what happens. Reacting assumes a state of being caught off guard. This will happen! In that case, all you can do is react, which you will do, one way or another.
> 
> Confidence or not, I say the same for everyone. If you are aware of it, take some steps to deal with it. Sometimes turning around and noticing them will deter. They usually wait to catch you off guard. Put your hand while walking on your mace, knife, etc.. Let them pass by, watching them the whole time, cross the street, etc.. If your wrong..No big deal, nothing will have happened, and you could go on your way, as they did. If you are right, you'll be ready.
> 
> Since it only comes down to one choice really, which is noticing it and then what.. What choice do you have? It's your physicall well being on the line. Do something to prepare for it.


OK Hand Sword san 
I hear what you are saying and it makes sense. And it is in truth the conclusion that I have been coercing myself into drawing lately. The concept of cowardice is something I have no problem admitting to but as such, your advice is a bitter pill for me to swallow. But still, increasingly I feel it is the right medicine. Got sugar mister Hand Sword san? Or sweetener? Or is coffee only to be drunk black and without? 

Thank you again,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

No sugar or sweetner from me, sorry. No coffee either, I've never liked to drink it. How about a nice, cold, Pepsi?


----------



## Jenna (May 8, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> No sugar or sweetner from me, sorry. No coffee either, I've never liked to drink it. How about a nice, cold, Pepsi?


Ah, good for you. Yeah my body is a temple too... With a big altar of chocolate. Come on over anytime you want to celebrate midnight mass, LOL 

Jenna


----------



## MartialIntent (May 8, 2006)

Jenna,
A lot of tough talking here. Wanna know something? For some people, talking tough is nothing but a picket fence around their fear so make no comparisons to yourself. Talking tough in itself is not a bad thing though but don't please feel obliged to U-turn who you are in yourself just to face down your situation. As someone else has said, you are not giving yourself credit for what you can do. I have been reading your posts with interest [and some concern] and seeing in your profile that you are nidan level in your Aikido is nothing to be sniffed at. To admit your fear is a big step that many of us can never take, even in the solitaryness of thoughts. But you are one step ahead of the opponent in that respect. Because make no mistake, *no one* fights for keeps without having some fear. And just because you have fewer deep battle scars than someone else, in no way implies you are any less of a toughie. 

Practically? In the absence of your final decision on what you intend to do, I'd not be able to add a lot to much of good advice that has been suggested already. I'd imagine that unless you are being sponsored, you will eventually have to return, and if not, I'd assume you would at least *want* to? I'm not that near to your home otherwise, I'd happily call up some friends and "send round a carload" as we say in these parts. I'm sure you could lay your hand to some help though? Some of your family or some of your Aikido guys? I'm not suggesting bodyguards but rather a coming together for a one-off show of strength like this...

A friend of mine found herself in a relationship that turned abusive. As is the case [and I suspect with you perhaps] this went on for some time with her perennially yielding to him - and it was becoming obvous physically too despite the excuses. She told no one, but many of us had the suspicion. I had a discreet word with her three brothers to try to gee them into action and they confronted the abusive partner head on. That maybe doesn't sound promising in _aiki_ terms but there was no violence. There was no need. The partner just needed someone to talk to him gently in his own language, as it were. He subsequently packed up his stuff and walked. I think sometimes guys just need to know that there is a definite line, the crossing of which will *not* be without consequences for themselves.

Backup is a good idea no doubt. But if you take a decision to move yourself I think there's no need for you to change who you are and how you work it. You are very endearing and genuine. One thing I would ask you to concentrate on is your intent. Your Aikido, especially if it is Aikikai derived is likely not a posturing art and not a combative art. However, it's not your Aikido that needs to change, it's your intent. I'm not saying you have to stick the knife in. What I'm saying is that you have to be prepared to apply the leverages you know *beyond* that which would constitute *everyday* harmonious Aikido practice. There is neither shame nor contradiction in this as Aikido was never designed as a plaything but a defensive art. If your defense necessitates you pushing a technique until your opponent is broken, screaming or unconscious then *that* is the finishing you were alluding to earlier. We get this question all the time - what does the Aikidoka do when the opponent keeps on keeping on? Well your "finishes" must be applied with more intent every time. The greater the increment of intent, the less the willingness of the opponent and the shorter the duration of them keeping on.

I see from your "Hello" thread [some intro btw!] that you have already had experience of this and I'm assuming this is the same person [apologies if this is incorrect]. Therefore, your intent must be substantially more focussed than previously. Once more will do it, I guarantee and I *know* you have it in you. I can sense from your posts, a strength of character in you that I have only encountered on a very very few occasions. 

Sincere Respects!


----------



## Ross (May 8, 2006)

Hey,

Well, my two cents worth are that you can 'pre empt' an attack if you can say to the police after that "I genuinely believed that I was in actual physical danger". 

You can be verbally assulted and have the right to defend yourself if you believe that the situation warrants it.

I have taught several lawyers and this was their opinion on the subject. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Jenna (May 8, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> A lot of tough talking here. Wanna know something? For some people, talking tough is nothing but a picket fence around their fear so make no comparisons to yourself. Talking tough in itself is not a bad thing though but don't please feel obliged to U-turn who you are in yourself just to face down your situation. As someone else has said, you are not giving yourself credit for what you can do. I have been reading your posts with interest [and some concern] and seeing in your profile that you are nidan level in your Aikido is nothing to be sniffed at. To admit your fear is a big step that many of us can never take, even in the solitaryness of thoughts. But you are one step ahead of the opponent in that respect. Because make no mistake, *no one* fights for keeps without having some fear. And just because you have fewer deep battle scars than someone else, in no way implies you are any less of a toughie.


Hey mister Doc Holliday Martialintent 

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. And honestly, your words have really made an improvement to the poor state of my logic and reasoning. I think what you said has triggered off lots of little neural connections in me - don't laugh, there really is something between my ears, ha!  And yes I do know what you mean about the opponent keeping on. That all makes sense in a way that's simple enough that even I can follow.

The relevance in the story of your friend really makes me sit up and pay attention. No brothers or mafia family for me I'm afraid and I just wouldn't be happy laying all this at the foot of my Aikido partners because I like them all too much to be dragging them all down with me. But it's still an option, you are correct. And options are the things that I maybe don't have so many of right now. Ha! A "carload" sounds about right but with all the fantastic help I have had on here from all you guys, I'm feeling like a self-initiated plan of some sort is maybe developing. 

It's brilliant to get this from an Aikido perspective too. I know it sounds stupid in this situation but I'm not so great when it comes to hurting people though I naturally take you point and those of others kind enough to post replies in that it's a necessity and maybe not so much of a contradiction to an aikidoka.

Thank you again for your confidence, your encouragement and your kind words of which I'm not in any way deserving.

Oh, and your avatar and little subtitle thing conjure one of the strongest, coolest movie scenes I can recall. Kudos my friend from somewhere back home 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## MJS (May 8, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey there tshadowchaser  Thank you for your concern, it is sincerely appreciated. I spoke with the local police this morning but they just sort of shrugged in that apathetic way they do here, "what would you have us do about that?" was the reassurance from the duty officer. I truly have no answer to that. It was somewhat condescendingly though politely suggested that I "retourner a votre pays de résidence" ie. go home. This isn't such a good option for me. I left the envelope with them but I get the impression it will have subsequently gone in the bin.
> 
> Thank you for your advice. I am heeding it all.
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
The actions of the officer Jenna are not uncommon, even in the states.  However, you went with a legitimate complaint and IMHO no matter how big or small it is, that is the job of a LEO, to handle problems, complaints, etc.  Having some sort of documentation is important, especially if harrassment like this continues.

Perhaps giving it a second chance with another officer or supervisor might get some better results. 

Mike


----------



## Jenna (May 8, 2006)

Ross said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> Well, my two cents worth are that you can 'pre empt' an attack if you can say to the police after that "I genuinely believed that I was in actual physical danger".
> 
> ...


Hey Ross 
Thanks for this, yes it does help certainly. I would agree completely though I think that the legal side is maybe not the biggest concern. I know you Kenpo guys like to go in hard and fast but I would ask you, is retreat and play the "react" card ever a methodology you would apply in your Kenpo? I wonder can you understand that retreat seemed the best option to me? I am concerned that if I preempt, I will make a bigger mess of an already messy situation. In which case, waiting might seem the more prudent option. Does this make any sense? 

The only analogy I can think is that I'm sure you've had matches in your time where maybe you had held back at tha start to see what you opponent had in his arsenal. That doesn't have to mean you let him hit you but rather it's a way to avoid going in too slow and getting caught out by his speed for example. Sorry that's probably not such a good analogy...

Regardless, thank you, your thoughts are helping my thoughts 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (May 8, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> The actions of the officer Jenna are not uncommon, even in the states. However, you went with a legitimate complaint and IMHO no matter how big or small it is, that is the job of a LEO, to handle problems, complaints, etc. Having some sort of documentation is important, especially if harrassment like this continues.
> 
> Perhaps giving it a second chance with another officer or supervisor might get some better results.
> 
> Mike


Hey Mike 

Thanks! At least it's some small comfort to know this isn't uncommon. I can recall the whole conversation verbatim Mike and at no time did I feel anyone was taking my allegations with anything resembling the gravity I felt was due. I guess maybe I don't look like the sort of person to warrant it. But You know, that's something I hadn't actually thought of - going back to the police. Of course, I've absolutely nothing to go on at this stage having dumped everything out. Still, I'm in another town so maybe that is an option.

Thank you again for this advice 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## thescottishdude (May 8, 2006)

Jenna, I saw on your profile that your art is Aikido. Doesn't that mean you should prefer waiting until they attack first?

The U.S. military have their own varient of martial arts in which they always opt for getting the first strike. Personally, I'd never increase the argument to a fight myself so i'd always defend and then attack. But when facing an agressinve opponent getting the initial attack in is usually best, but you can't just go hunting people down that you don't like and giving them a kicking. Or diving through their front windows with a crowbar and a knife...


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Ross
> Thanks for this, yes it does help certainly. I would agree completely though I think that the legal side is maybe not the biggest concern. I know you Kenpo guys like to go in hard and fast but I would ask you, is retreat and play the "react" card ever a methodology you would apply in your Kenpo? I wonder can you understand that retreat seemed the best option to me? I am concerned that if I preempt, I will make a bigger mess of an already messy situation. In which case, waiting might seem the more prudent option. Does this make any sense?
> 
> The only analogy I can think is that I'm sure you've had matches in your time where maybe you had held back at tha start to see what you opponent had in his arsenal. That doesn't have to mean you let him hit you but rather it's a way to avoid going in too slow and getting caught out by his speed for example. Sorry that's probably not such a good analogy...
> ...


 
Hey Jenna 

That analogy works for me. Yes, you can either act or react. I just mentioned the act first tactic.

Primarily our system is based upon a reaction to an aggressive action. One thing to take into account is the psychology of the attack and the aggressors actions relating to this. In Kenpo we also sometimes employ a 'framing' principle - I'm not sure if you have this in Aikido? - basically it involves positioning your hands and body into 'submissive' positions but you are actually a) inviting the aggressor to strike to your chosen target thus allowing you to execute the technique that you want to do. b) it can be enough to make the aggressor think that they have won the verbal sparring and that is sometimes enough. 

Hope this helps!


----------



## MJS (May 9, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Mike
> 
> Thanks! At least it's some small comfort to know this isn't uncommon. I can recall the whole conversation verbatim Mike and at no time did I feel anyone was taking my allegations with anything resembling the gravity I felt was due. I guess maybe I don't look like the sort of person to warrant it. But You know, that's something I hadn't actually thought of - going back to the police. Of course, I've absolutely nothing to go on at this stage having dumped everything out. Still, I'm in another town so maybe that is an option.
> 
> ...


 
Jenna,

Sorry that you didn't get the results you were hoping for the first time.  Hopefully, things will get better for you.  In the future, if something like this happens again, it may be a good idea to keep the numbers, messages, etc. of any sort of harrassment that you're getting as proof.  The more evidence you have, the better it'll look. 

As far as the pre-emptive striking goes, if you haven't already, take a look at the two links that I posted in this thread.  Quite a bit of good info. in there!:ultracool 

Mike


----------



## Jenna (May 9, 2006)

Ross said:
			
		

> Hey Jenna
> 
> That analogy works for me. Yes, you can either act or react. I just mentioned the act first tactic.
> 
> ...


Hey there Ross, 
Thank you. I like that and yes it does help. That's clever is that! No I haven't got anything like that my hands are usually centred, roughly corresponding to the hara. But, your "framing" technique sounds like a very clever way to work a real-life fight. Thank you.

Seeing your location makes me yearn for home. What's the weather today? It's sunny as h3ll here in Liege so please tell me it's rainy and drizzly down where you are and cheer me up for not being back in England - what's the latest on Rooney btw? I've heard nothing since I left on the 1st 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna (May 9, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> 
> Sorry that you didn't get the results you were hoping for the first time. Hopefully, things will get better for you. In the future, if something like this happens again, it may be a good idea to keep the numbers, messages, etc. of any sort of harrassment that you're getting as proof. The more evidence you have, the better it'll look.
> 
> ...


Hey Mike, 

Thanks!! Yes, I did follow those links - I'm familiar with the SFUK site from previously, but I genuinely and sincerely appreciate your help and advice.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna (May 9, 2006)

Hello all my sweet Martial Talk muffins 

Thank you all so much for your sincere advice, suggestions and tactics. I am concerned I have pushed the limits of your goodwill on this thread and perhaps on the forum in general. However, for anyone still reading I just want to give you a final update before I move on... It seems that I underestimated the Politie Brugge having had a "social" call from a wonderful lady police officer there - one of the few that I trusted to give my new mobile contact number before leaving Bruges. She recalled the name of my "friend" (huh, yeah) following a callout they'd had. By her account, there was some sort of fracas or scene at the Botaniek not long after I had left. My "friend" turned up apparently worse for booze and created a bit of a fuss with the front of house staff and the concierge and got himself arrested fortunately. Unfortunately he was released the following morning under some sort of non-mandatory instruction or conditional bail as I understood her explanation, to return to England. Her call was on the pretext of information for my safety though I believe it was mostly to flag up a warning since she suggested again I return to England and contact the met. Although I'm glad he has drawn the attention of the local police back in Bruges and maybe with the police fédérale if they're linked together like that, I don't believe, sorry, I KNOW for a fact that he's not the type to comply with non-mandatory instructions. 

So... thanks again to everyone for the advice, the suggestions, the tactics and yes, the hugs!! I have made a decision to go for the pre-empt. I'll not waste any more cyberspace talking to myself but just want to say to any stalwarts still with me, tot ziens mijn vrienden 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Rich Parsons (May 9, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey there big Rich
> Man, your posts don't make me feel bad, no sir. They reverberate with truth and clarity. It is me that's at fault because I am envious of those who can do what I can never hope to. I'm always willing to learn though which is why I am maybe getting stuck in a loop of asking questions.
> 
> Thank you again for your advice and help. Believe me, it is appreciated
> ...



Jenna,

Asking questions is good. To doubt is to open the mind for further learning. 

I have given some thought to this on what I could say to help you. 

I could tell the story of the Ugly Duckling and the Swan. So you could be happy with what you are, but as a human being we adapt to our environment and also continue to learn. So that would not be the right thing.

I could crack a joke about pyschologists and the defendor and attacker mentality and say that no Psych can change you, for you have to want to change yourself, but that also does not ring true, nor is it my way for a serious matter.

I could tell you another story about a cat or dog that was domesticated pet that ended up going feral to survive, as they did adapt to their surroundings, but it would be an analogy that could be missed by some. 

I could tell you to get agressive and to stop the bully, but I am not in the situation and cannot review all the data, that which is not said, which is heard but processed in the background, and also seen and processed. Yet this is difficult to do in the written medium not knowing all possible situations, when from my previous stories I was trying to state that it requires an expereince to read the opponent. 

If you can read the opponent and know the risk is that of a black eye then one can try and if you fail it is a lost fight and not a lost life. This could work if you could watch another person in action and gain from their experience as well, and deal with understanding that most people just posture. 

But all of that is Male on Male fighting and posturing which is not Male stalking or attacking a female for what ever reason that is not good. 

So, how do I step outside that box and put myself into your shoes. To walk a mile in your shoes without really knowing you, and what your experiences are. That is difficult at best and almost impossible at other times. 

So, I will try my best here with what I can. You stated you study Aikido, and what little I know of that art they do not punch or strike and if they do it is not a major part of the art. The art concentrates more on using the opponents energy against them. Or to use their energy to assist you and throwing or controlling them. (* NOTE: Throws and contol techniques are also Breaks, same basic motions just a different application. *) 

So, if you walk around looking like a victim, and the bully or predator will use your fear or energy against you. The object is to be smart and not put yourself into a location to meet the bad guy, but if it is there, do not give them energy that they can use back against you. 

(* Note: This does not mean you cannot be afraid, or have fear, for many times I  have been afraid, and this is almost always when things would then get out of hand and someone would get hurt, But that is me and not you. So it is ok to have fear, just channelt it into adrenaline to be used for you, and not to cripple you or have you fall into submissive behavior. *)

Of course some cultures are worse than others in respect to how women are treated or expected to act, so mileage will vary. 

If you are wary and alert then most of the predators will not attack you for they are looking for easy prey. Of course this does not account for the bad guys who have targeted you for a personal reason or you fit a profile for them. Yet, the more you are aware and aleart the harder it is for them to get a clean shot at you. 

Now you can also take this too far, and if you become paranoid then you begin to give off energy that the others can use against you. So healthy respect, just short of paranoia is good. 

Keep questioning, keep your eyes open, be aware, and not place yourself in a corner with no way out. Have a back up plan, and work the crowd for reading the situation, and trust your intuition. 

Oh and continue to train hard.


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## Sagat (May 10, 2006)

:iws:  

Plus I'd like to add should you ever be in the position where you have to defend yourself,  if you are afraid [everyone will have some fear when put into a dangerous situation], try to control your fear.  Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true.  

I also beleive that if you know where the conversation is leading, I don't see the point in waiting for your attacker to throw the first punch. Why should you get hurt and risk being permanently injured because of someone's bad temper or threatening behaviour? 

I will always try to defuse a potential attacker verbally, but should I be unable to talk my way out of it, I will try to walk away, if they then get in my way, I'll go through them. There is no honour nor are there rules in a street fight, defend yourself accordingly. Having said that though, don't stick around after and be mindful of cameras [should you be outside/inside a bar or club]. You may feel differantly about such situations, I am simply giving my opinion, I don't have any sympathy for people who want to smash my head in or roll me for no reason. 


:jediduel: :matrix: 

lol, these are cool!       :lookie:


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## Bigshadow (May 10, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> So... thanks again to everyone for the advice, the suggestions, the tactics and yes, the hugs!! I have made a decision to go for the pre-empt.


Jenna,

Just remember, to pre-empt doesn't have to mean attack.  You could subtly give your attacker the opening they need if you feel attack is imminent, this way you will have a good idea of where the attack will come from, from there, you only have to wait for it, no need to rush.


Enjoy the chocolates!


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## Robert Lee (May 10, 2006)

Places you go some are more prone to altractions. So a person needs to beaware of this as fact. But not to the point of over reaction. Bars clubs pubs  where public drinking is done. there are problems from time to time. Baware have fun IF that is a place you go to. Other places are not as prone. Figure a safe spacing your zone Words can be exchanged with out it being more then that. But set up your zone. Ask the person if they enter that space or you just take the 1 step back. Do not project that you are going to strike. If it comes to knowing you have to just do it. Do not wait for the other person to do it first. But you need to really know it has come to that point. It is not smart to go around and feel like every body is a possible threat. Small things happen all the time. But they are not geared for the fight. Let them go by. just be aware and live on Do what needs to be done when you need to do it. Life is easyer.


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## Jenna (May 10, 2006)

Hey all my fantastic friends,  come on now here am I trying to stop this big silly train of a thread by pulling the emergency cord and you're all so nice and so helpful you can't stop posting even after I tell ya all it's ok and sorted. I have a whole lotta love for you guys, a WHOLE lot and I'm sending a big hug to each and every one who came on this big silly train of mine just as a little thank you.

All your advice I had in my stupid head when got on the Thalys destined for Ghent. I just got that gut feeling my stinking so-called friend would be there and I went off to intersect his path and I just went right on ahead and called his number on my mobile and said straight out that we honestly needed to get together and TALK rather than escalating the problem over and over. He wanted to meet last night. I mean, it was 1am or something. What an absolute nerve. And obvious from his forceably restrained tone that he wanted to do more than just talk but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and agreed to meet up at noon here at Saint Bavo's where it's open and there are lots of tourists - and police probably I hoped. 

It was my honest intention to talk it through, sort it out, reach accord and move on and away from it. I mean, He was being the antagonist all the way through our working career. All I ever wanted to do was fix cars and get on with my friends. I don't know, I just plainly don't know people I guess I'm not cynical enough and should have to start distrusting everyone to avoid getting played for a fool. 

I have been there at St Bavo's before and even so, I thought I'd turn up early to scope the place. I guess he thought exactly the same. I saw him first, but the second he caught me in his eye, he came straight at me, no questions, no talk, there was no talk at all, he had no intention of talking things over or coming to me with open intentions, he had nothing good in him at all and he came at me furious to throttle me stinking of booze and the stain of tobacco on his teeth and all I can remember is the state of him and his stupid red striped shirt and that suede jacket looking like he's spilt drink over it or puked on it and taking his arm out onto his weak stance and dropping my weight what little there is and just going back, just put him on the bloody ground Jenna, on the ground and managing to get him round into some stupid kote gaesh or probably not but putting it right on with my knee in his face and just putting it on like I wanted to break him. I wanted to twist him and do damage and hurt him and wanted him to feel that pain the way I was feeling it

...sorry, 
I am very shaken and shaking even trying to type this has taken me three quarters of an hour and then paste it in here but I thought it maybe might explain to someone in the same position the same as I was when I found this super forum and all my wonderful friends here and came on looking for help and just tell that person whomever they are that they don't have to take it from anybody

what a mess. The police were there I noticed as soon as I arrived. One up near the big doors, one at the far gable wall I noticed and everyone on here said to be more aware of the surroundings, the group of young guys with backpacks, italian I think I couldn't make out clearly. They helped I knew they would they were all over him like a rugby scrum and the police were very very quick no mess and I couldn't let go of the lock like that sensation from grinding your teeth and wanting to grind your teeth to pebbles I couldn't let go of the lock on his arm and shoulder and my knee grinding into his cheekbone. They dragged me away and the other officer trailed him away to the other side. Witnesses thgough and plenty of them, the young italian guys or spanish im not certain they were adamant about what happened I was attacked. Me and not him. What a mess. I don't even know which police station or where. He will now be deported they said to me. I don't know if theres a receiving officer back home but I don't think it works like that. I have to trust them to relay this back to the Met. I don't know what happens next. I have spent the whole day nearly in politie procedurals where do you live what's your age, where do you work why are you here, who can vouch for you, was ihre beziehung, what identification have you and warum diesen mannangriff machte and the same stuff over and over from different officers and only some is in english and my german is poor but better than the dutch they were babbling at me and I finally put my head in my hands and scream KEINE mehr fragen! I don't even know if that's right but it all stops and somehow I'm back in my hotel.

and I'm sort of hoping someone's out there somewhere and bothered reading all this mess that I've made and I could do with a gee up or I don't know just maybe a hello.

yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna


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## Carol (May 10, 2006)

Your training has served you honourably, Jenna my friend.

We're all here to listen, to learn, to talk, to read...I can't speak for everyone but I think I speak for perhaps more than myself when I say in no way should you walk away from posting here.  

I for one am very, very glad you are safe for the moment, but I think we will all breathe easier once you are at home in the UK.

What you are going through is absolutely NOT trivial.  Not for you, not for us.

Do not drop off the world, Jenna.  You will have far too many people worrying about you if you do.


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## Jenna (May 10, 2006)

My lovely Carol, thank you for reading this for me. Though I feel -and not being rhetorical-  I have let down my training and my art in many many stupid and naive ways the fact remains yes, my training did not throw itself overboard off as the ship sank. I say you are too kind giving credit where I don't deserve it at the risk of sounding as if Im fishing for compliment. honestly, i'm not. So long as I know my moon is your moon that can be a sufficient staff of support.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna




			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Your training has served you honourably, Jenna my friend.
> 
> We're all here to listen, to learn, to talk, to read...I can't speak for everyone but I think I speak for perhaps more than myself when I say in no way should you walk away from posting here.
> 
> ...


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## Kacey (May 10, 2006)

Jenna -

You chose a good place and time - crowded with people, no privacy - and brought the matter to a head; now, hopefully, it's over.  As difficult as this situation was, better it should happen the way it did, than you ran into him unexpectedly in a less-populated location.

Take a deep breath, relax, and continue to work through both the process and the experience.  Do something you enjoy.  Have a drink (but don't overdo it tonight).  Don't try to push this into the background and ignore it, because it will pop up until you have processed it thoroughly for yourself.


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## Jenna (May 10, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> Jenna -
> 
> You chose a good place and time - crowded with people, no privacy - and brought the matter to a head; now, hopefully, it's over. As difficult as this situation was, better it should happen the way it did, than you ran into him unexpectedly in a less-populated location.
> 
> Take a deep breath, relax, and continue to work through both the process and the experience. Do something you enjoy. Have a drink (but don't overdo it tonight). Don't try to push this into the background and ignore it, because it will pop up until you have processed it thoroughly for yourself.


Thank you Kacey my angel  I don't drink though I wish I did. My huge box of chocolates are my comfort though that is a far way from a hug. A silly thing to say perhaps but I have little care for the whether or not

Thank you for your advice. In truth I do not know what to do next or what to think. I am here maybe to load my head up with other stuff for a while. It is going on 3am here I am tired but cannot sleep for staring at the moon and retracing everything. 

You are a very very clever lady and I promise I will re-read your words when the fog lifts and allows the captain to see the harbour.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## tshadowchaser (May 10, 2006)

you faced the situation and met it head on. you came out on top and that is good.  You used your head in picking the place and time  that was excellent. Hopefuly that will be the end of it.
Go site seeing tomorow and try to enjoy the day
put this behind you and dont bring it into your mind to offten its sometimes beter that way but never forget it.  
If when you get back home you happen to find your slef in the area of the local police stop by and make sure they are aware of this persons activities 
enjoy the rest of your time travling around the country or areas you want to visit
sheldon


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## MartialIntent (May 11, 2006)

Jenna - I'm just seeing your post now. What you just did and how you handled yourself is an absolutely undeniable testament to your strength of will. For what little comfort it may be, I have great admiration for you and for what you did. I think you did yourself proud. 

Moreover, you did and do us all proud.

Practically, you should have no trouble whatsoever having a restraining order imposed on this monkey. Maybe when your train of thought is back on the tracks you can get yourself back to the local police station there and get their contact details or whatever written evidence they are at liberty to provide you with. When you get back home to Blighty, pass on the information to your local station in London and make certain you go to your solicitor as a matter of urgency. They will handle it from there so please stop worrying. I PM'd you a UK dot-gov link that might give you a better understanding of where you stand legally right now and what options you have. I know what these types are like believe me but I would be willing to bet you've broken the back of your problem. I hope you can see that yourself. Take heart in the fact that you could have done the thing no other way and go easy on yourself!

And don't you be leaving MT now. As Carol Kaur and others have said, you have shone a unique light around here and I believe you've made a few of us see things differently under it. Take good care!

Sincere respects!


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## Explorer (Jun 11, 2006)

> OnlyAnEgg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would add something to that ... someone threatening you is an aggressive act.  I think it's a mistake to wait for the first punch.  Steps must be taken earlier to avoid a violent confrontation.  But once the threat (yes, threat) is real, action must be taken immediately.  A broad legal definition for the legitimate use of force is when you or another (innocent) is in danger of the immediate use of unlawful force.  In a situation such as this ... pre-emptive action may be your best chance to walk (run) away with your health.  It may also help reduce injuries to yourself and the aggressor.  To my way of thinking ... this a more humane way.


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## pstarr (Jun 11, 2006)

As the others have already said, avoid the situation altogether if at all possible.

     If it isn't...we believe that the attack begins in the mind.  By the time the body begins to carry it out, you're playing a game of "catch up."  When you sense that the attack is imminent, apply your defensive measures at full tilt boogie.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 11, 2006)

Fake diplomatic efforts and attack their neighbor; besides, they may have Oil.  If they don't,  at least you've expanded your Empire,  and will let all else know that you are a force to be reckoned with. 

Seriously though,  I divide potential conflict into singular and plural, un-armed and armed.
Best is to assume that they are armed(knife), and with friends(hidden).

Another aspect is the 'talker' vs. 'silent type'.  Mr. Silence scares me more, but doesn't necessarily mean he is more a threat.

Know your environment and personal space(proportional to your ability/capabilty).
If you need to run, then run!  Nothing wrong with this.
If you can't,  draw them off their center(gravity and intention), and control it as best as possible.
Always be deceptive with punks and all attackers. Out-Wit them.
Go for knees, eyes, throat.  

If all else fails,  call in lead F-16 strike force for strategic precision Atemi attack.artyon:


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## 300winreaches (Jul 2, 2006)

Nothing wrong with striking first. As already mentioned, the law permits you to strike first if you meet certain criteria. This is standard in most western countries and is straight and forward. You must remember that if striking first then you are saying you had no other option available to you.

This can easily be defended by simply use of force guidelines. Identify the threats and apply your options accordingly. The Canadian Use of Force guidelines identify first strike as an option. Try something like a forearm or a lose hand strike to the side of the neck (brachial plexus origin or small intestine 16), it&#8217;s a great knockout. My favorite is the second choice because you can add Chi as well.

Just do not underestimate you attacker, make your strikes count, then escape.


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## bujuts (Jul 3, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> My sensei teaches that my art is for defence. That means, to me, that I must wait for the aggressive act. By definition, if I strike first, I am the aggressor.



What if you are not the focus of the attack, rather someone who you must protect?  The majority of the responses here deal with threats to our person, but I believe we should bear in ind all circumstances which could actually lead us to rain violence on another human.  I refer to this as "peace protection", only part of which is my own personal safety.

Got kids?  Ask any parent if they will remain in defense mode if their cub is in danger.  Watch an adult's demeanor in class if you even mention a threat to loved ones.  There's no doubt in the mind, and "self defense" has now become broader in scope.  Sometimes attacking is paramount.

Salute, good discussion.

Steven Brown
UKF


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 3, 2006)

Glad to hear Jenna was able to take care of business. 

I know this topic comes up quite a bit. Ask yourself this: Does action beat reaction? Get yourself a partner and face each other in a training horse stance with your hands chambered by your sides. Set the distance between you at arms reach and then take turns trying to "tag" your partner while they try to parry or block your action. Does action beat reaction? Now ask yourself, "Do I want to wait for someone to throw a punch before I react to the threat?"


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## spinkick (Jul 6, 2006)

depends on the situation a drunk old man wants to fight me im just going to apply a technique when he tries to hit me as not to hurt him to bad.  A big guy that could actually do some damage.. The instant I feel actually threatened I would strike.


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## Kwai chang caine (Jul 20, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> 1. you need a boyfriend (not for self defense, unless you want to practice oh him, but for the little weather situation you described)
> 2. the best self defense is NOT to be there in the first place. i.e. try to avoid situations as much as you can
> 3. you mentioned you are a mechanic, right? i dont know how hard it is to carry the wrench in your purse?
> 
> (only # 2 is not kidding)


That quote is from General Patton. At the end of your posts. Patton rocks!


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## Kwai chang caine (Jul 20, 2006)

spinkick said:
			
		

> depends on the situation a drunk old man wants to fight me im just going to apply a technique when he tries to hit me as not to hurt him to bad. A big guy that could actually do some damage.. The instant I feel actually threatened I would strike.


 Yet again I have to agree with you, I wouldnt let allow someone the time to hurt me. I wouldnt give them a chance to.


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