# Video games suggested for new police training



## MA-Caver (Jun 26, 2008)

> *Video games suggested for new police training*
> *NYPD to swap nightsticks for joysticks?*
> By Mike Smith
> http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/video-games-suggested-for-new-police-training/1223108
> ...



Hmm, I know some of those first person shooters are very realistic but umm... I don't know if it would really help in training? I don't know... what do the LEO's here think? What does everyone else here think?


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## Archangel M (Jun 26, 2008)

Depends, some of the more advanced shooting simulations do have training potential. Using a mouse or control pad? No. Having to react with equipment closely approximating the real deal? Yes.


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## shujika (Jun 27, 2008)

Kansas City Mo. already does this with academy recruits (and has had similar equipment for some time). The officer has a simulation sidearm (similar size & weight as duty weapon) and fires a lazer at screen to score. The weapon also has simulated recoil (from air source). The screen scenario set up can be changed (even during a simulation) to what the instructor feels it needs to be. The officer is surrounded on 3sides by the screens (which individually be programed or manipulated as needed). From my understanding, it's pretty slick.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 27, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Hmm, I know some of those first person shooters are very realistic but umm... I don't know if it would really help in training? I don't know... what do the LEO's here think? What does everyone else here think?


 I learned the old fashioned way....growing up with real guns.  But most urban coppers never held a gun before picking up their first one in the academy......so I guess this is what you've got.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 27, 2008)

shujika said:


> Kansas City Mo. already does this with academy recruits (and has had similar equipment for some time). The officer has a simulation sidearm (similar size & weight as duty weapon) and fires a lazer at screen to score. The weapon also has simulated recoil (from air source). The screen scenario set up can be changed (even during a simulation) to what the instructor feels it needs to be. The officer is surrounded on 3sides by the screens (which individually be programed or manipulated as needed). From my understanding, it's pretty slick.


 We've been using computer simulation training like F.A.T.S. for years.....they're good for training split second decision making.  Improving the shooting skills themselves requires bullets and a range to shoot at.  It's a total package approach that is required.


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## Drac (Jun 27, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Improving the shooting skills themselves requires bullets and a range to shoot at. It's a total package approach that is required.


 
That says it all...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 27, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> We've been using computer simulation training like F.A.T.S. for years.....they're good for training split second decision making. Improving the shooting skills themselves requires bullets and a range to shoot at. It's a total package approach that is required.


 
Yes the simulation training is excellent for developing decision making in the moment.  You are absolutely correct in that good shooting skills require range time.  Put the two together and you have a good training package that has been used by police and military for quite a while.


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## MJS (Jun 27, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> We've been using computer simulation training like F.A.T.S. for years.....they're good for training split second decision making. Improving the shooting skills themselves requires bullets and a range to shoot at. It's a total package approach that is required.


 
You beat me to it!   Personally, I think the FATS machine is more productive than video games.  They brought the machine to our PD one time for the cops to use.  They asked if any of the dispatchers wanted to give it a try, so I took advantage of that chance.   Certainly makes you think, and although when you get 'shot' you're not really dead, but the fact is, is that it makes you think, and puts you in a different mindset.  At least it did for me. 

And yes, heading to the range is very important as well.


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## jks9199 (Jun 27, 2008)

MJS said:


> You beat me to it!   Personally, I think the FATS machine is more productive than video games.  They brought the machine to our PD one time for the cops to use.  They asked if any of the dispatchers wanted to give it a try, so I took advantage of that chance.   Certainly makes you think, and although when you get 'shot' you're not really dead, but the fact is, is that it makes you think, and puts you in a different mindset.  At least it did for me.
> 
> And yes, heading to the range is very important as well.


Depends on which firearms simulator you've got.

The best are also the most expensive -- but they shoot back (plastic pellets a bit larger than an Airsoft pellet... with a lot more sting!).  The operator controls the development or progress of the scenario in response to the trainee's actions, and it tracks hits and marksmanship on the targets presented.  Believe me, you learn to really find cover because that little cannon has nasty aim in the hands of a good operator...  Simulation (Simunitions FX and the like, even Airsoft) is also good training with real space for judgement and assessment.

The worst simulation training involves poorly designed scenarios, and minimally interactive video.  Imagine a watching a video tape, and simply saying "bang" with a toy gun... some are almost that bad.  Or use unrealistic scenarios that reward illegal activity.


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## MJS (Jun 27, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Depends on which firearms simulator you've got.
> 
> The best are also the most expensive -- but they shoot back (plastic pellets a bit larger than an Airsoft pellet... with a lot more sting!). The operator controls the development or progress of the scenario in response to the trainee's actions, and it tracks hits and marksmanship on the targets presented. Believe me, you learn to really find cover because that little cannon has nasty aim in the hands of a good operator... Simulation (Simunitions FX and the like, even Airsoft) is also good training with real space for judgement and assessment.
> 
> The worst simulation training involves poorly designed scenarios, and minimally interactive video. Imagine a watching a video tape, and simply saying "bang" with a toy gun... some are almost that bad. Or use unrealistic scenarios that reward illegal activity.


 
Good points.  I didn't know that they actually had ones that fired pellets back at you. And I agree with the scenarios...the more realistic the better.


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## DavidCC (Jun 27, 2008)

I saw some video of a friend at a defensive tactics course.  At one point the trainees had to move up to a window and fire through it.  I noticed that my friend was the only one who didn't just stand there in the window, he peeked around it and fired.  He attributed that insight to his experience gettign sniped in Call of Duty 4.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 30, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> I saw some video of a friend at a defensive tactics course. At one point the trainees had to move up to a window and fire through it. I noticed that my friend was the only one who didn't just stand there in the window, he peeked around it and fired. He attributed that insight to his experience gettign sniped in Call of Duty 4.


 Actually games like that are very good for learning tactical thinking and movement.  There is a direct translation of skills.  

It's also the same reason American pilots today are the best pilots in the history of flying. No other place and time on earth has someone been able to log thousands of simulator hours flying a plane before even turing 12 years old.


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## punisher73 (Jun 30, 2008)

During the late 80's or so.  The military noticed a big increase on the amount of recruits that were qualifying with expert marksman status.  They thought it was odd that most of the these recruits had never been around guns.  They figured out it was the first generation that grew up on Nintendo's Duckhunt.  They spent ALOT of money and created the FATS simulator.

Video games can be used to train.  Look at games like SOCOM where your main focus is on using tactics like a navy seal.  You have to think tactically to move on in the game.  If a similiar game was created using urban LE situations it could help with officers to think more tactically as well.  Not to mention you are training your eyes to line up sights so it becomes second nature or aquiring your "sight picture".

I have been in both an LE and a military "FATS" type simulator where you go to a situation that was a video on a big wall size movie screen so it was lifesize, and you are giving commands etc. Although the interaction is obviously limited this way.  In some scenarios the person complies with what you are saying and in others you are forced to shoot.  When you do, the program tracked via laser how many shots, where they hit, how fast the shots came etc.  The important part also was the feedback from the officer running the scenario what you could have said differently, what cues you might have picked up on earlier, etc.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 30, 2008)

I've been to use the FATS simulator with my unit up at Camp Edwards twice. A great time it is.


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## jks9199 (Jun 30, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I've been to use the FATS simulator with my unit up at Camp Edwards twice. A great time it is.


We used a military one doing some training at one of the Counter Narcotics facilities...  We had one scenario that we cops just blew completely by shooting too soon.  The scenario included responding to a domestic; a guy is cleaning a gun as he sits on a sofa and gets increasingly irate...  As he rises with the gun in his hand, we ALL shot.  Too soon for military standards -- but right on time for civilian police!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 1, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> We used a military one doing some training at one of the Counter Narcotics facilities...  We had one scenario that we cops just blew completely by shooting too soon.  The scenario included responding to a domestic; a guy is cleaning a gun as he sits on a sofa and gets increasingly irate...  As he rises with the gun in his hand, we ALL shot.  Too soon for military standards -- but right on time for civilian police!


 Right on time!


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