# Kung Fu in Phoenix/Tempe, AZ?



## blindsage (Aug 30, 2013)

So, I'm planning to move to Arizona next year for grad school, and I'm wondering if anybody has good CMA recommendations for the area.  I'm an internal guy these days, and any Bagua, Xingyi, LHBF, or Yiquan schools would be greatly appreciated.  I'm open to other CMA's as well.  My wish list would be Bajiquan, Tongbei, or Southern Mantis, but I'm open.  I know of a couple of good Wing Chun people down there and I know there's a good I Liq Chuan guy, anything else?  

P.S. Not really a modern Wushu guy.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2013)

I think I saw a listing for Fujian white crane, connected to someone who teaches here in San Francisco.  I don't know their reputation, but might be worth checking out.


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## blindsage (Aug 30, 2013)

FC are you talking about these guys?

http://www.whitecrane.ws/


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2013)

I'm having a hard time getting the page to open properly, but I'm seeing enough that I don't think this is the one I was looking at.  I was in Phoenix area back in about 2008 for business, and I was just paging thru the yellowpages, I think.  I might be wrong, maybe I had looking online...anyway, I found a school there that was Fukien white crane.  I don't really get what that Toisan white crane is all about.  But the school I found stated that the teacher was a student of some guy in San Francisco.  Sorry I can't remember the names.


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## clfsean (Aug 30, 2013)

Peter Pena down on the south-ish side in Gilbert. Bak Mei / Lung Ying / White Crane etc... 

http://www.freewebs.com/southernfistclub/


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2013)

I see he's making reference to Toisan too.  Is that a region in china?  Is this the same as fukien white crane?


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## clfsean (Aug 30, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I see he's making reference to Toisan too.  Is that a region in china?  Is this the same as fukien white crane?



Nah... Toisan is south of Guangzhou. It's the region the Wong brothers (and lots of others) were from.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Nah... Toisan is south of Guangzhou. It's the region the Wong brothers (and lots of others) were from.



so this Toisan White Crane is actually the Fukien white crane style?


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## clfsean (Aug 30, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> so this Toisan White Crane is actually the Fukien white crane style?



It could be & the guy is just from Toisan. I dunno. I've never seen his WC performed.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 30, 2013)

I do not know this person but if he is what he claims to be he is well worth checking out

T'ai Chi Ch'uan Academy

If this guy is what he claims to be he is a student of Tung Kai Ying, the oldest son of Tung Hu Ling. Tung Kai Ying learned from his father and his Grandfather (Tung Ying Chieh) and is, IMO, the best of the current living Tung Family to learn from although I am told he tends toward the traditional


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2013)

blindsage said:


> FC are you talking about these guys?
> 
> http://www.whitecrane.ws/



I had a chance to take a better look at this.  I don't know what to think of it.  There is a short demo of "chuin, pow, khap", which are the three primary punches in Tibetan White Crane.  I don't care much for how he does them, I think he's missing a lot, but that's what they are.

Then, there is a description of white crane "primary forms", including feeding, flying, calling, crane, etc.  That sounds to me like Fukienese white crane.  These are two very different systems, not connected or related, other than by coincidentally using the same name. 

The history of Master Zu simply says that (among other things) he studied White Crane in 1963 under a "famous master", but it doesn't say who.  

So I really don't know what he is doing, what this Toisan white crane is.  Mebbe it's some personalized mix of elements of the Tibetan and Fukien methods?  I don't think that's a good idea, they are just really different, different fundamentals and foundation work and I don't think it'll mix well.  But that's my opinion.


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## TaiChiTJ (Aug 30, 2013)

Yes, Xue Sheng, David Block has been teaching here in Phoenix since at least the early 80's when I became aware of him. He is a long time Tung Family practitioner.


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## TaiChiTJ (Aug 31, 2013)

This gentleman teaches a variety of TCMA, particularly Chen TaiJi:

http://drxiaotcm.com/index.html

He also appears to be on the staff of this North Phoenix Kung Fu School: 
http://www.9dragonskungfu.com/index.html


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## TaiChiTJ (Aug 31, 2013)

While it is not in the syllabus of arts you mention, If we are talking Phoenix CMA, I will mention an important contributor to the Wing Chun section of MartialTalk: 

http://www.vingtsunaz.com/bio/


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## TaiChiTJ (Aug 31, 2013)

Now for something completely different. I came across this site a few months ago and never researched it. There is a teacher northeast of Scottsdale (Scottsdale is northeast of metropolitan phoenix) teaching something called Mu Dong Kung Fu. Maybe some folks on MartialTalk know about this style. 

Here is the MuDong KungFu Main site:
http://mudongkungfu.tripod.com/id1.html

Here is our teacher in Rio Verde, Arizona: 
http://www.masterwongaz.com/mudong_web_site_011.htm

Looks like a very forms heavy system. Also he seems to have a strong internal element. 
Anyway, this thread got me learning about cma in my town.
BTW, it is a bit of a drive, I think, out to Rio Verde.


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## blindsage (Sep 1, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Peter Pena down on the south-ish side in Gilbert. Bak Mei / Lung Ying / White Crane etc...
> 
> http://www.freewebs.com/southernfistclub/



This is great, thanks.  I am intrigued by Bak Mei and Lung Ying.  Do you have experience with Peter Pena?


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## blindsage (Sep 1, 2013)

TaiChiTJ said:


> Now for something completely different. I came across this site a few months ago and never researched it. There is a teacher northeast of Scottsdale (Scottsdale is northeast of metropolitan phoenix) teaching something called Mu Dong Kung Fu. Maybe some folks on MartialTalk know about this style.
> 
> Here is the MuDong KungFu Main site:
> http://mudongkungfu.tripod.com/id1.html
> ...


Interesting some form of combination of a snake system with LHBF.  I'd be curious to check it out at least.


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## clfsean (Sep 1, 2013)

blindsage said:


> This is great, thanks.  I am intrigued by Bak Mei and Lung Ying.  Do you have experience with Peter Pena?



Personally no, but my sigung knew him from NYC back in the day & say he's got the goods, at least as far as the Hung Ga & Bak Mei since that's what he knew him for. I'm certain given his background, if he's teaching Lung Ying openly (which he is), then I've got to feel he's got the goods there & ok to teach that. Lung Ying is relatively rare so it's a very small community. I couldn't see somebody teaching it without the ok to teach it for long.


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## blindsage (Sep 1, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Personally no, but my sigung knew him from NYC back in the day & say he's got the goods, at least as far as the Hung Ga & Bak Mei since that's what he knew him for. I'm certain given his background, if he's teaching Lung Ying openly (which he is), then I've got to feel he's got the goods there & ok to teach that. Lung Ying is relatively rare so it's a very small community. I couldn't see somebody teaching it without the ok to teach it for long.



I'll definitely have to check him out.  Thanks.


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## TaiChiTJ (Sep 2, 2013)

There are several Wing Chun schools in the Phoenix/Tempe area besides the one site I mentioned in a previous post. Part of the history I am aware of is that sometime in the late 60's / early 70's saw the arrival of Master Augustine Fong in Tucson. 
Master Fong traces his lineage to Ho-Kam-Ming, an important figure in Yip Man's lineage. There are teachers in the Phoenix/Tempe area who trained under Master Fong. 

And that is only one of the Wing Chun connections happening in the area. Another representative of the Wing Chun Pai include Hung Fa Yi. 

I think Geezer said in one of his posts, "Phoenix is a Wing Chun mecca".

Here's a thread that discusses W/C schools in AZ: 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/72143-Wing-Tsun-in-arizona?highlight=mecca


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## blindsage (Sep 3, 2013)

TaiChiTJ said:


> There are several Wing Chun schools in the Phoenix/Tempe area besides the one site I mentioned in a previous post. Part of the history I am aware of is that sometime in the late 60's / early 70's saw the arrival of Master Augustine Fong in Tucson.
> Master Fong traces his lineage to Ho-Kam-Ming, an important figure in Yip Man's lineage. There are teachers in the Phoenix/Tempe area who trained under Master Fong.
> 
> And that is only one of the Wing Chun connections happening in the area. Another representative of the Wing Chun Pai include Hung Fa Yi.
> ...


Thanks for this.  I'm not too worried about finding Wing Chun, it seems to be all over, and I'm already aware of a couple teachers in the Phoenix area.  But the info is appreciated none the less.


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## greytowhite (Dec 5, 2016)

We have a good amount of kung fu here in Phoenix. The Toisan (Taishan in Pinyin) White Crane is not really related much to the Fukien (Fujian) White Crane. It is also called Tibetan White Crane or Lion's Roar. The school in Mesa shut down but I think they still practice in Chandler at the Vietnamese culture center. My bagua gong fu brother was an instructor there for a little while but has since moved on to teaching the Yang 24 form and some Kunlun.

My sifu lives just south of Prescott and teaches Kenny Gong's xingyibaguazhang. We have classes at Margaret T. Hance Park in downtown Phoenix. Tom Morrissey is senior to my teacher in Master Gong's system and is in Ahwatukee but has largely withdrawn from teaching except in private. You can come practice with us by PMing me here or through our Phoenix Opens Wings Facebook group.

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is in Chandler and they used to practice Wudang sword as well but I think that instructor moved to the Bay Area. They're a real gem of a system and arguably more internal than the Ip Chun lineage guys around town. My friend's girlfriend is an indoor student and she's a deadly beast.

Betty Dong is a disciple of Chen Xiaowang and teaches all over the Valley but holds regular classes in Tempe. When my first taiji teacher wasn't going to seminars with the village big shots he would study with Betty. They mainly focus on silk reeling, push hands and form. Haven't seen them do much else but my first taiji teacher had good neigong and martial ability.

There is a Yin style baguazhang study group in Tempe for Lion and Phoenix but they're rather difficult to contact. I've never personally been to one of their classes but my first bagua teacher learned from Xie Peiqi and He Jinbao years ago and I really liked their system. It feels the most "complete" to me whatever that means.

The Yang taijiquan teacher I have not met with but they train at the Asian Arts Center. I've pushed with one of his students and found the guy to be very soft, clear channels, but no power. That's a student though, can't speak about the teacher.

Chen Practical Method is in North Phoenix and taught by Ping Wei who is a disciple of Chen Zhonghua. While I haven't encountered Ping I have touched hands with other Practical Method guys in Northern California and found them to be very well connected and powerful in a very different manner than the village method.

Ashe Higgs used to teach I Liq Chuan in Tempe but has since relocated to New York, don't know if there is a local presence any more.


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## Midnight-shadow (Dec 6, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I had a chance to take a better look at this.  I don't know what to think of it.  There is a short demo of "chuin, pow, khap", which are the three primary punches in Tibetan White Crane.  I don't care much for how he does them, I think he's missing a lot, but that's what they are.
> 
> Then, there is a description of white crane "primary forms", including feeding, flying, calling, crane, etc.  That sounds to me like Fukienese white crane.  These are two very different systems, not connected or related, other than by coincidentally using the same name.
> 
> ...



As a Fujian White Crane practitioner myself I was very curious in this, so I looked at the videos and they look nothing like the White Crane I know. The demonstrations of the strikes are far too hard for Southern White Crane. To be honest it looks more like Northern Shaolin Crane than Southern. It almost seems like they've tried to make a hybrid of Tibetan and Southern White Crane systems. Very odd indeed. I'd be very interested to see one of their full forms but I doubt I'll find it. As for the "famous Master", the fact that the Master isn't named immediately is a red flag for me, and again I'd be curious to know exactly who this guy trained with.

EDIT: They actually have one of the forms on youtube. Definitely looks more like northern crane than southern crane to me:


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## Flying Crane (Dec 6, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> As a Fujian White Crane practitioner myself I was very curious in this, so I looked at the videos and they look nothing like the White Crane I know. The demonstrations of the strikes are far too hard for Southern White Crane. To be honest it looks more like Northern Shaolin Crane than Southern. It almost seems like they've tried to make a hybrid of Tibetan and Southern White Crane systems. Very odd indeed. I'd be very interested to see one of their full forms but I doubt I'll find it. As for the "famous Master", the fact that the Master isn't named immediately is a red flag for me, and again I'd be curious to know exactly who this guy trained with.
> 
> EDIT: They actually have one of the forms on youtube. Definitely looks more like northern crane than southern crane to me:


That video is definitely not one of our sets from Tibetan crane.  It looks almost like Choy lay fut or hung gar or some derivative.


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## clfsean (Dec 6, 2016)

It's not Lama Pai. Toisan is the area where the Lama Pai arrived courtesy of Jyu Jik Chyuhn, a student of both Wong Lam Hoi & Wong Lam Yan.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 6, 2016)

clfsean said:


> It's not Lama Pai. Toisan is the area where the Lama Pai arrived courtesy of Jyu Jik Chyuhn, a student of both Wong Lam Hoi & Wong Lam Yan.


Sounds like we may have another Tibetan branch of white crane that went in a different direction.

Do you think the set in that video looks kinda like CLF?


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## greytowhite (Dec 6, 2016)

clfsean said:


> It's not Lama Pai. Toisan is the area where the Lama Pai arrived courtesy of Jyu Jik Chyuhn, a student of both Wong Lam Hoi & Wong Lam Yan.



Interesting.


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## clfsean (Dec 7, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds like we may have another Tibetan branch of white crane that went in a different direction.
> 
> Do you think the set in that video looks kinda like CLF?



-ish but not really. Not really sure what it could resemble. 

It could be White Crane in part but I'm not really certain what else is in there. Toisan at one time was a hot bed of MA in Southern China.


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## greytowhite (Jan 23, 2017)

Apparently Ashe Higgs is back in Tempe from New York and is in the process of revamping his Web site. Zhong Xin Dao/I Liq Chuan has always really impressed me with plain language instruction and a very structured curriculum to develop fighters with skill.


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