# reap what you sow/ karma?  believe?



## bydand (Feb 9, 2007)

Just had a conversation with the Wife and had to ask a question.  Not my usual lighthearted, half-arsed questions I usually have, but serious this time.

Do you really believe in "karma"; "what you sow, that shall you reap"; or "What goes around, comes around?"  Not in any religious meaning or  that manner just to keep that argument/discussion out of the thread.  

The reason I ask is my new limited edition Spring catalog from Cabelas came the other day and this evening I finally had a chance to pore over the fishing sections.  A funny story that happened while out stream fishing a couple of years ago popped into my head and I told her about it.  My Father and I were fishing a small brook up here called "Halfway Brook" he was on one side and I was on the other dropping into the small holes looking for some trout when we came to a rather large beaver dam.  No need for discussion, he continued on his side and I continued on my side figuring we would meet back up where the backwater ended.  A few minutes later I didn't like how far apart we were getting because the beaver pond was a giant so I made my way back to the dam and crossed over to his side.  A couple of more minutes and I was almost up to him when he stepped over a log that was about knee height in waist deep water, as he brought his other leg over the log his feet slipped off another log and he lost his balance and started to go over backwards with his feet trapped by the lower log and his knees tight to the higher one.  A couple of quick steps and I caught him just as he was about to splash down.  I didn't know his feet were stuck until he told me.  He didn't know I was coming up behind him until I caught him either, he thought he had landed against a tree at first.  I still shudder when I think of the outcome if I hadn't felt the need to be on the other side.  I had to literally pull his feet out because he couldn't, he would have gone over backwards at the knees into waist deep water and had his chest waders fill with water.  At 65 I don't think he could have stood back up on his own.  When I was done my wife looked at me and simply said "Funny how life makes reversals to us isn't it, he caught you when you fell for years and now it is your turn to catch him. It's too bad our socitiey doesn't learn that lesson better."

All that, for this: Do you think karma, or whatever you want to call it, really happens?


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## MA-Caver (Feb 9, 2007)

While the motion picture industry seems to thrive on showing karma where the bad-guy always get theirs in the end and the good guy is triumphant there is a wee bit of truth to it all. As far as I believe. 
Karma or reaping what you sow and all of that can be also found in the philosophy of Norman Vincent Peale who wrote the phenominal book "How to Win Friends And Influence People"... he knew that attitude will be reciprocated no matter what it is. Although it isn't always instantaneous.  How we treat people will eventually turn back to us. Hence also the "golden rule" of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It's evident here on *Martial Tal*k as we all interact with each other through our posts and threads. Post bad stuff and you're gonna get bad replies (and reps) and vice-versa. 
Actions? Well, we've all seen people do bad and terrible things at one time or another and seem to get away with it for years; but we've also all seen a majority of them get "caught" or "punished" or something bad happens to them... and it's not necessarily what they've been doing. Examples can be Hitler, Saddam, and hundreds of historical bad-guys and hundreds of people that we know throughout our day to day lives. 
Example: I knew of a man who was a respected member of his community and the founder of a summer camp, then he was caught molesting young boys and it turned out that he had been doing so for years but never got caught... yet it eventually caught up with him and he was punished for it. Punished with jail time, probation, intensive therapy and probably worse of all (for him) his "good-name" permanently blackened by those who formerly respected him and held him in high regard. 
Some folks will go on through their whole lives doing things and it seems that they never get their just rewards (good or bad). Has Karma over-looked them? Or are we not patient enough for it to happen? 
I've known good people who done great philanthrophic work but they're still poor and struggle everyday of their lives for their own personal living? You wonder and hope that something will happen that will be great and fantastic to them because of the great and fantastic work they've been doing to/for other people, but it doesn't... or does it? 
bydand wanted to leave religion/theological beliefs out of this but it's not really possible. Because (as I understand it) Karma, reaping what you sow, etc.  is a theologic belief. 
But I do know from personal experience that when I do good things for people however small eventually something good (however small) happens to me... may not be exactly the same thing but how one looks at it and learning to see the forest for the trees, seeing the bigger picture, helps to understand karma.
Sometimes karma is instantaneous (like John Lennon once sang), sometimes it happens days, weeks, months and even years later. But it does happen, the question is the how and why? 
The how and why answers in this thread will be interesting to read indeed. Unfortunately on my end I can only attribute the how and why to a theological belief and thus respecting the continuity of the thread I'll have to remain mum on the subject. :asian:


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## jetboatdeath (Feb 9, 2007)

Sure, I think every one has a story like that. Call it what you want (woman call it intuition) but its out there.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 9, 2007)

I have numerous instances of being in the right place at the right time, or the wrong place at the right tme. 

I also believe that Karma can follow one from past events even before their current birth date. I know you said no religious issues. To me it is not a religion but just a feeling.


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## bydand (Feb 9, 2007)

Caver, I want to hear it.  I don't want it to be a sterilized thread, but I didn't want it to turn into a gripefest about who is "wrong" and who is "right" about why things happen.  Let's keep it nice and civil and try it.  I know you will for sure, but there are others who I have my doubts.


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## bydand (Feb 9, 2007)

On second thought here.  I realize this cannot be discussed without the religious aspect being introduced.  In an attempt to short-circuit the arguments I am afraid I also neutered the thread.  

So to be the first to bring it up.  To this day I KNOW my going over to the other side with my Father wasn't just a fluke, or happenstance; I really feel I was led over there at the right time.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 9, 2007)

hmmm.

i find that such things happen with alarming frequency.  i haven't decided if there is a 'karmic' force that drives that sort of thing, or if life is just a series of amazing coincidences.

what i do know is that when i _act as though_ there really is a force behind it, my life works out better for me.  so i really don't care if there's objective truth behind it.


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## Blotan Hunka (Feb 9, 2007)

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm



> According to the Buddhist doctrine of Karma, one is not always compelled by an &#8216;iron necessity&#8217;, for Karma is neither fate, nor predestination imposed upon us by some mysterious unknown power to which we must helplessly submit ourselves. It is one&#8217;s own doing reacting on oneself, and so one has the possibility to divert the course of one&#8217;s Karma to some extent. How far one diverts it depends on oneself.
> 
> Is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion?
> 
> ...


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## MJS (Feb 9, 2007)

Mod note.

Thread moved to  Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts.

MJS 
MT Supermod


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## morph4me (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm not sure about karma, but I do believe that things happen for a reason, and that you're where you should be, both in life and in space, sometimes the reason is obvious, as it was in your case, sometimes it's not.


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## stickarts (Feb 10, 2007)

I think that every one of our intents,thoughts, decisions, and actions have repercussions and spin a "web" around you. By this I mean the friends you keep, the reputation you make for yourself, what you accomplish in your life, how you treat others, honesty,etc...
I think this has a big influence on our life so that many things that happen to us are not random, but are a result of our own actions.
I like what many of the motivational speakers say: life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we respond to it.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 10, 2007)

I hope so, because there are alot of people out there doing bad stuff and getting away with it.  Karmaggedon would be much appreciated!


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## zDom (Feb 10, 2007)

Even if I had no personal experience, I've seen plenty of evidence of "karma"/reaping what you sow/what goes around comes around.

(mitigated by the "rain falls on both the righteous and the wicked")

But you were asking for personal stories, so here goes:

About a year or so after I graduated from high school, I was at a party hosted by a friend. He had asked the band I was in to play.

We were in the middle of the first set when a small group of guys from another high school barnstormed the place with a bad attitude.

Frustrated that the party was in danger of breaking up (sucks to have to break down and load the equipment after playing only a half set!), I stuck my nose in the middle of it.

Well, one of those guys called me out, and I had been drinking and nobody from our group intervened, so I stepped outside with him.

About this time I noticed that he was bigger and stronger... oops.

But I slipped his punch, got a good lick in and he spun to the ground. Nevertheless, I wasn't sure if things would continue to stay in my favor if I let him get up, so I told him "You better not get up!"

He rolled over, got up on his hands and knees, so I kicked him in the face. Now, I had never studied any martial arts at this point in my life, but I had played soccer for many years...

The kick lifted him off his hands and laid him on his back. I told him, "Just stay down!" but he started to get up again. Now I was REALLY concerned for my safety, so I kicked him in the face a bit harder.

He started to get up AGAIN and again I told him "DON'T GET UP!" He still tried to get to his feet, so I kicked him AGAIN in the face, this time even harder. It laid him out on his back and he was unconcious.

I went in the house to cool off for a bit, came back out five minutes later: he was still out cold. Now I was a bit concerned for HIS well being.

Another couple of minutes later he finally came to  and immediately started coming at me. But both his friends and my friends were convinced he had had enough  his friends pulled him back and into their vehicle, my friends pulled me back into the house.

Several years later, I was working at a gas station and some guy came up to the kiosk window, bought a pack of cigs, and said, "You remember me?"

"Nope," I said.

"You broke my jaw a couple of years ago  broke it in three places. You really messed me up," he said.

I shrugged. I felt bad about what I had done even before I heard his jaw had been broken, but now I was feeling REALLY bad and also wondering if I was about to be served papers for a lawsuit.

"I just wanted to thank you," he said.

I blinked.

"I'm not being a smart ***," he said. "I mean it. Before that fight I was a real *******. Plus, I was overweight and couldn't get a girlfriend. After that fight, I had my jaw wired shut for six weeks, lost a bunch of weight, plus it really mellowed me out. Now look at me: I'm lean, I get chicks all the time, and I'm a helluva lot nice. Thanks  you really made a difference in my life."

"Er.... glad I could help," I said, completely blown away by what he said.

About three or four years later, I had a crazy girlfriend who decided to go off and "party" with three other guys. Rather than simply writing her off and moving on, I thought it would be a good idea to talk to her as they left the bar.

They objected to me interrupting their party and as I told them to butt out, someone sucker punched me. I turned to look at him, and another guy sucker punched me from another direction. Funny thing was, neither of _those_ guys were even with the ones who were "partying" with my wayward girlfriend. They had just been drinking and thought it would be fun to punch someone in the face.

I wasn't happy with how things were going, so I grabbed one of the three party boys by the lapels, stepped behind him with my right leg and dropped his shoulders and head to the gravel parking lot. Then I reached down and grabbed his windpipe and said, "Anybody touches me again, and I swear to god I will rip this throat out."

About this time, the local police pulled up on the lot.

"What's going on here?" they asked.

"Nothing  we were all just talking," they said.

"Well, I suggest you all break it up and go somewhere else," they instructed.

We all hopped into our vehicles and I followed them to another bar so I could demand my "girlfriend" to talk things over.

This time, however, I thought it would be a good idea to slip the escrima sticks my friend had lent me up my sleeves "just in case" they decided to jump on me again.

While I didn't have any formal training, he has showed me a couple things with escrima sticks and I figured they might even the odds some.

So as I asked her to come talk to me, they turned around and said, "Oh, its YOU again" and started moving toward me.

I dropped the sticks out of my sleeves into my hands and prepared to engage.

One of the three guys, who I later learned was named "Jimmy" and was a VERY rough character, said, "Oh yea? I've got just the thing for YOU."

He went to his car, reached in and pulled out a tire tool. They spread out and began to feint in. I would take a couple swings, and that fellow would back up while another feinted in.

Then the guy on my right  the same one I threw down into the gravel at the other bar  shot in for a "shoot" takedown. I backpedaled off at an angle, hammering him in the head, face and shoulders with a combination of about six to seven strikes.

His shoot became a sprawl face down onto the blacktop parking lot.

"Oh my god," I thought. "Did I just kill this guy?"

His two buddies helped him to his feet, to my immediate relief.

They turned and looked at me and immediately all rushed me at the same time.

They grabbed my arms, pulled the sticks out of my hands and threw them, and pulled me to the ground.

Jimmy then proceeded to drop the tire tool down on my skull. I wrenched one arm free and managed to fend of a couple blows.

One of the holders re-grabbed my arm and held me more firmly.

Jimmy continued to beat me in the head for a couple of strikes while I struggled. Then one came down right on my jaw.

I knew THAT one had hurt me: I could feel a couple of teeth loose in my mouth. At that moment, for the first time in my life during a physical encounter, I completely lost the will to fight. I just wanted to go home and it occurred to me that I might never ever go home again.

While my life didn't "pass before my eyes," I did realize at that moment that this could really be the end of my life, and I regretted the grief my parents and other family would experience at my untimely passing.

Ironically, I could see the red and blue flashing of a police cruiser's lights that was right around the corner of the bar. So close, and yet so far away.

And Jimmy was still hitting me in the head with the tire tool, despite cutting his hand on the "prybar" end he was holding as the curve of the lugnet end was what was making contact with me.

About that time Scott Campbell walked up. He and a few other had been watching the fight through the glass side-exit of the bar.

"Hey," he said. "Don't you think he's had enough? You are going to kill him."

Jimmy reached down and grabbed me by the face ("OUCH!" I thought, "That HURTS!) and said,

"If you ever mess with us again, we will KILL you  do you understand me?" he said.

I knew it wasn't just an expression. I nodded enthusiastically.

They walked back to their vehicle and I climbed to my feet.

I jogged over to the police cruiser, knocked on the window, and showed the startled officer the three bloody teeth I had spit in my hand.

"Those guys just knocked me teeth out  get them!," I slurred through my broken jaw, pointing to the vehicle pulling off the lot.

"Do you need an ambulance?" he asked, visibly shocked. He had been filling out a citation as I knocked on the window.

"NO!" I said. "I want you to GET THEM. Hurry  they are getting away!"

"Are you sure you don't want an ambulance," he asked.

"Aw, forget it," I thought. I jumped in my car and drove home.

I rushed into the bathroom to look over the damage. It was bad. There was a hole in my lip large enough to stick my thumb through and my jaw was visibly mis-shapen.

It occurred to me that the ladies probably wouldn't find me attractive any more, and I began to tremble as I made my way to my parents bedroom door. Shock was beginning to set in.

It's too late to make a long story short  but there was no way to "save" my teeth: my jaw was more than just "broken" where the tire tool had hit it. The maxillofacial surgeon said that part of my jaw "looked like oatmeal."

I spent the next five weeks with my jaw wired shut: apparently I heal a bit quicker than average. Once my jaw healed enough, the Good Doctor put implants into my jaw upon which he mounted a permanent bridge.

During those five weeks, I decided I would like to learn a bit more about martial arts. My friend and I started training regularly for a couple weeks before we decided to join the local Moo Sul Kwan for formal training.

While that is another story, let me wrap things up by saying it proved to be a life-changing, character-building experience for me, as well. I generally began making better choices about my female companions and the types of situations I put myself into from that point on.

My face healed up pretty well, although there is a visible scar on lip if you look for it, but is not generally noticeable and my jaw line appears to be straight. 

All in all, it may have been the best thing that ever happened to me.

While I never "thanked" Jimmy for working me over, I did run into him once more before he died.

I was talked into moonlighting as "chief of security" for a couple of months at a bar after several years of martial arts training.  I think I was a brown belt at the time.

I am proud to say I NEVER had to get physical with anyone during that job, including the time Jimmy showed up at the place and had an argument with his ex-girlfriend who was a waitress there.

The boss told me it was time to ask Jimmy to leave, so I did exactly that. I politely advised him the boss had asked him to leave.

"No problem," he said, and left without incident.

A couple of months after that, the boyfriend of husband of a girl he was seeing shot him like six times in the chest. He survived.

A few months, maybe a year, later he died in a somewhat mysterious car accident  his car left the roadway on a turn and Jimmy died in the accident.

They say what goes around comes around, that you reap what you sow. I believe it.


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## michaeledward (Feb 10, 2007)

I would prefer to believe in a properly secured wader belt, and maybe even look into a pfd inflatable fishing vest. Some of the older folks I see on the river use two wader belts, one at the waist, and one at the chest. 

Another good and critical tool is the wading staff. For years, I jumped around river rocks like a billy goat without one of these. That was just dumb. 

Only once did I slip and fall to the depth of the brim of my hat. Makes the rest of day fishing awfully uncomfortable.


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## bydand (Feb 10, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> I would prefer to believe in a properly secured wader belt, and maybe even look into a pfd inflatable fishing vest. Some of the older folks I see on the river use two wader belts, one at the waist, and one at the chest.
> 
> Another good and critical tool is the wading staff. For years, I jumped around river rocks like a billy goat without one of these. That was just dumb.
> 
> Only once did I slip and fall to the depth of the brim of my hat. Makes the rest of day fishing awfully uncomfortable.



Very good advice and he had a wader belt, but it wasn't around his chest, it was down around his waist.  I didn't have to talk much to get him to retire the old style and go to a nice fitted neoprene set with the proper wading belt this time.  

Wading staffs are worth their weight in gold.  I too used to think I was part goat, now at 43 I know better.  Never walked out from under my hat, and don't think I want the t-shirt for that one either.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 10, 2007)

instant karma is going to get you -  John Lennon

Had that one hit me a couple of times

With that said, yes I do believe in karma to a certain extent. I am not sure if it follows you throughout time however, but that would get into a whole other post. 

But I am just happy to hear you were there to catch him.


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## heretic888 (Feb 13, 2007)

bydand said:


> Do you really believe in "karma"; "what you sow, that shall you reap"; or "What goes around, comes around?" Not in any religious meaning or that manner just to keep that argument/discussion out of the thread.


 
As a supernatural "guiding force" or "destiny" that we inevitably invoke with our actions? No, I don't.

However, I do believe in the related "like begets like". If you're generally pleasant and agreeable to those around, there is a tendency for people to respond in kind. If you're nasty and mean-spirited to others, they also tend to respond in kind. This isn't inevitable, of course, its more like a likelihood.

I don't need to resort to metaphysics or quantum mechanics (I just know somebody is going to throw in chaos theory any minute now) to explain this. Its a natural product of living in a social environment.

Laterz.


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## Kacey (Feb 13, 2007)

About 15 years ago, I was working as a research aide at a research hospital for a psychiatrist who was doing a research study.  The hospital had an orientation for new employees, which included a tour and some general advice.  One piece of advice we new employees were given was that this was a very friendly place to work, and that employees tended to smile at each other alot, and we were encouraged to smile back, or even first.  So instead of just nodding at people (if anything) as I walked past, I smiled at them - and lo and behold, they smiled back.  That really made an impression on me, and since then, I always smile at people as I walk past - and they usually smile back.  A small thing, but it reinforces the idea that people respond to you the way you respond to them - whether you call it karma or not.


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## RED (Feb 19, 2007)

stickarts said:


> I think that every one of our intents,thoughts, decisions, and actions have repercussions and spin a "web" around you. By this I mean the friends you keep, the reputation you make for yourself, what you accomplish in your life, how you treat others, honesty,etc...
> I think this has a big influence on our life so that many things that happen to us are not random, but are a result of our own actions.
> I like what many of the motivational speakers say: life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we respond to it.


 

After reviewing many episodes of "My Name is Earl" (great show) I have to agree with Stickarts. Decisions and reactions are what develops our future. Irony is just that irony. 
If you smile at someone, they will walk away saying gee they where happy, or where they laughing at me?

Now i like John Lennon as much as the next guy, but Eric Clapton summed it up good "It's in the way that you use it"!!


My 2 ¥


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## Dionysianexile (Feb 22, 2007)

The closest ive seen in the literature of anything close to karma is somthing called *cumulative continuity*. It was published in 1989 by  Caspi, Bem, and Elder in the Journal of personality 57 (2), 375406. Below is the abstract.



> Behavior patterns can be sustained across the life course by two kinds of person-environment interaction _Cumulative continuity_ arises when an individual's interactional style channels him or her into environments that themselves reinforce that style, thereby sustaining the behavior pattern across the life course through the progressive accumulation of its own consequences _Interactional continuity_ arises when an individual's style evokes reciprocal, sustaining responses from others in ongoing social interaction, thereby reinstating the behavior pattern across the individual's life course whenever the relevant interactive situation is replicated Using archival data from the Berkeley Guidance Study (Macfarlane, Allen, & Honzik, 1954), we present evidence for the operation of these two continuity-promoting processes by identifying individuals who were ill-tempered, shy, or dependent in late childhood and then tracing the continuities and consequences of these interactional styles across the subsequent



Basically it says that a persons behavior puts them into environments that reinforce that behavior, causing the consequences of said behavior to accumulate across the lifespan.


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## zDom (Feb 22, 2007)

Dionysianexile said:


> The closest ive seen in the literature of anything close to karma is somthing called *cumulative continuity*. It was published in 1989 by  Caspi, Bem, and Elder in the Journal of personality 57 (2), 375406. Below is the abstract.
> 
> Basically it says that a persons behavior puts them into environments that reinforce that behavior, causing the consequences of said behavior to accumulate across the lifespan.



That makes sense. But karma is a much shorter way to say it


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## mijemi (Feb 22, 2007)

I think people generally treat you like you deserve to be treated so what goes around does come around. However in your experience I think that's something more than just that. You said you thought it wasn't a fluke that you went over the other side. Who ever really knows what is going on in the unseen world. I guess we can just be grateful for these little "miracles".


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