# Cops: Above the Law???



## Cryozombie (Aug 13, 2003)

This is purely theoretical and hypothetical, but its amazing what you think of when you are bored...

Assume a guy is speeding.  Cop sees him, pulls out behind him, chases him down, runs his plates, then lights up his cherrys and pulls him over.

The cop is ALSO guilty of speeding.  Why is it OK for him to break the law??? Because he has a badge?   Ok... theorectically if its ok for him to do so (speed to catch a speeder) then in court, shouldnt the defense that you were speeding to catch another speeder that you intended to place under citizens arrest be just as valid???  And if not, than  isn't it true that the cops are above the law?  

I started thinking about this while standing in line outside a local Venue in chicago... a cop came and told everyone in line to move... someone commented about it, and I said "Yea, Damn the man keepin us down!"  and the first guy said "Dont say that too loud, the cops around here are likely to shoot you for it!"   To which I replied "with what?  Guns are ILLEGAL in chicago!"   Now of course I was JOKING, but i got to thinking about it, if owning Guns are illegal, and by criminalizing guns you have effectivly removed them from the hands of the criminals (as the Mayor MUST believe, since he is the one who made that law)   then why does law enforcement need them???  Now of course, I know the truth, which is, the criminals STILL have them, only the law abiding citizens gave them up...  But the cops get an "exception" to that law, and i started thinking... the only "reasonable" reason I could see is that cops can ignore the laws that everyone else has to follow is so they can PREVENT and PUNISH crime,  and that led to the speeding question... and the conclusion that it should be ok for us too if we are trying to prevent crime... Ugh... my head hurts.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 13, 2003)

Actually...you have some interesting points.

I recomend heavy medication. 

Seriously though...

Lets use the 'red light' as the idea.

Red light means stop.  Cop pulls up to red light...turns on his flashers, and drives thru.  Once thru, off goes the lights. Guy behind him sees car in front moving, so goes.  Cop pulls to the side, lets guy pass, then turns flashers back on, and pulls the guy over...why?

Because he ran a red light.


Heres another....I followed a cop (who was going at a few mph above speed limit...but I could legally keep up.  Light turns red, he hits flashers, n keeps going.  I of course stop.  I watch as he turns lights off after he is thru, and keeps on going.  No hurry, same speed.  This happens for the next 2 lights.  He then turns off.

Where was he going?  

HQ.  Yup.  Couldn't wait for the red lights, had to use his 'power' to run em, so he could get back to the office at shift end.

Warning - Cops in West Seneca NY love to do this crap.  Happens at least 1 outta every 5 times I see em.

Someone should write em some tickets.....


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## Ceicei (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *This is purely theoretical and hypothetical, but its amazing what you think of when you are bored...
> 
> *



You must be RRRRRREEEEEAAAALLLLYYY getting bored.  Go out and punch some heavy bags....

:shrug: 

- Ceicei


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## Nightingale (Aug 14, 2003)

I've had at least two California Deputy Sheriffs (one Orange County, one Los Angeles County) tell me that they regularly use the carpool lane when driving solo... and when pulled over, use the "badge pass"


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## Seig (Aug 14, 2003)

And in other states, if one cop from one jurisdiction sees a cop from another jurisdiction doing something, they take great delight in ticketing/arresting them.


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## Disco (Aug 14, 2003)

An officer/deputy doing something illegal (running lights in non emergency, speeding or some other dumb things), take down the car number - location - date and time. Then lodge a complaint straight to the chief or sheriff. You saw what happened when the proliferation of video tapes started popping up. Departments started to reign in their members. 

I think every area of the country should have what N.Y C. has/had. Don't know if it's still active but I think it still is. It was called "the civilian complaint review board" and they looked at complaints from the general public about police conduct. Valid complaints did get action. Somebody has to police the police, otherwise like anybody else, some will abuse the power and position. We are dealing with human beings and for the most part, the vast majority of officers in this country are good, decent law abiding people that are asked by society to perform a thankless job.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> * "badge pass" *



I like that.  Very catchy!  LOL!  :rofl:


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## Nightingale (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *I like that.  Very catchy!  LOL!  :rofl: *



the cops' words, not mine, but very appropriate. lol.


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## Phil Elmore (Aug 14, 2003)

Police officers are just people, like everyone else.  Some are good, and some are bad.  Some abuse the power and advantages offered by their position, and some don't.


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## OULobo (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Police officers are just people, like everyone else.  Some are good, and some are bad.  Some abuse the power and advantages offered by their position, and some don't. *



The question is which "some" is more. If there are more abusers then we might start to think that there is a trend associated with the "power" to break the law and avoid punishment.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *You must be RRRRRREEEEEAAAALLLLYYY getting bored.  Go out and punch some heavy bags....
> 
> :shrug:
> ...



HEH HEH.  Thats hard to do sitting at my desk at work...  Believe me, If i could convince my boss we needed one, (Oh and I have tried) i would be doing just that...

But seriously... By no means did I intend for this thread to be a "cop bashing" thread, merely a hypothetical excercise in "What if we used the same logic/reasoning"  that is used to excuse cops from breaking the law?


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## Ceicei (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *HEH HEH.  Thats hard to do sitting at my desk at work...  Believe me, If i could convince my boss we needed one, (Oh and I have tried) i would be doing just that...
> 
> But seriously... By no means did I intend for this thread to be a "cop bashing" thread, merely a hypothetical excercise in "What if we used the same logic/reasoning"  that is used to excuse cops from breaking the law? *



Try getting your boss into MA and he might consider a punching bag to use during breaks...

Logic?  And use that same logic to excuse "bad MA instructors" who like to cut corners and sniff green?

I suppose all of us are entitled to idle moments....

- Ceicei


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## brianhunter (Aug 14, 2003)

Okay....there are officers that speed, run lights, "badge out", whatever. If you do call in DO get a date/time/car. What is not an emergency to you might be to someone else. Do you have a police scanner? Do you know if the cop was en route to anything? If there is a domestic violence in progress and an open line to the beat up wife Im not going to run lights and sirens unless Im going through an intersection...will I speed? YES, Will I haul *** getting there? YES Im not gonna tip off the offender to lock the doors prep the wife for her testimony and have her wash off her face in the bathroom while they hear us screeching lights and sirens in front of their house.......common sense would dictate that. Another example would be running fast going through an intersection then slowing down or stopping. I have been dispatched to an officer in trouble..man with a gun...etc.. and thats usually for any officer close. Some guys are closer get there first and I am disreguarded...should I keep running like that? no I was disreguarded, do I feel bad because people dont understand why I was using lights and speeding the stopped all of a sudden? You bet! But I try to serve and protect, I think if it where your mom/sister/wife/daughter in jeapordy you would want me there as fast as I could be come hell or high water.
There are people out there that abuse anything...kenpo/cops/bank accounts/privlagese whatever but I think as people we are smart enough to know we dont judge the few by the whole everything I do is recorded/taped/monitored/logged I have no problems with my actions, if you see something get a date time car and call a supervisor, most of the time that supervisor will research it and find out what that officer was doing and give you a reasonable explaination. I had a buddy that flew to a burglary in progress...had about 3 complaints filled (nieghbors within 3 houses) but he caught the burglary hanging out the window red handed....lights and sirens or taking his time he wouldnt have been there....My guess is the homeowner appreciated keeping his stuff and having the guy caught in the act. Most of you are martial artist who know how to think and know there are more then one side to a story....use your head and maybe think there is another side sometimes.


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## brianhunter (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *The cop is ALSO guilty of speeding.  Why is it OK for him to break the law??? Because he has a badge?   Ok... theorectically if its ok for him to do so (speed to catch a speeder) then in court, shouldnt the defense that you were speeding to catch another speeder that you intended to place under citizens arrest be just as valid???  And if not, than  isn't it true that the cops are above the law?
> *



Actually no he is not.....in my state it is in statute that if you (the officer) are actively pursuing an offense and reasonably need to speed to enforce said offense it is not a violation of the law. Most states have something very similar I am sure set up in their statute. So as long as you are acting within the realm of your duty you are allowed BY STATUTE to speed.


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## Nightingale (Aug 14, 2003)

I think most cops are good cops... we just hear about the bad ones.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I think most cops are good cops... we just hear about the bad ones. *



How often do we actually notice the GOOD of ANYTHING?  How often do you call the phone company to say thanks for your sevice working for the last 3 months straight?  How often do you thank your husband/wife for being there when you come home, or wake up?  Or how often do we call our mechanic to thank them for our car running very well for the last year since they worked on it last?
The whole thread was started as a speculation based on some instances that are noticed by most of us.  These may be the "bad" cops that we see, or these actions may be very Justified.  
I didn't take it as "cop bashing" but merely something to think about the next time I see any of these things happen.  

By the way Nightingale I like your signature.


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## theletch1 (Aug 14, 2003)

I call this sort of thing the 10% rule.  Every group of individuals has about 10% that gives the other 90% a bad name.  It was true in the Marines, true in MA and is true in my job as a truck driver.  Don't let the 10% taint your view of the rest.  I am very good friends with officers from several different jurisdictions here in Va and am lucky enough to get candid answers to questions like this "Why is it ok for you to speed" question.  If your state or county allows such a thing request a ride along with an officer to see what they do on a regular basis.

Here in roanoke, va we have city officers who have been convicted of everything from domestic abuse to drunk and disorderly to poaching but the rest of the guys on the force are great guys and gals who do their job with the utmost of proffesionalism and integrity.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Actually no he is not.....in my state it is in statute that if you (the officer) are actively pursuing an offense and reasonably need to speed to enforce said offense it is not a violation of the law. Most states have something very similar I am sure set up in their statute. So as long as you are acting within the realm of your duty you are allowed BY STATUTE to speed. *



So this falls under the second part of my statement... 



> _Originally posted by Technopunk _*
> Ok... theorectically if its ok for him to do so (speed to catch a speeder) then in court, shouldnt the defense that you were speeding to catch another speeder that you intended to place under citizens arrest be just as valid??? *



I stand by that question... Why wouldnt it be OK for me to speed, providing I claimed I was trying to prevent a crime???   

And again, I stand by my previous statement that I am not bashing LEO in any way, or trying to point out "bad cops" who should have their donuts taken away... (THAT is my bad cop story if anyone really wants to hear it) 
My father is a Retired cop, and I asked the same question to him... he just lauged at me and said "It probably wouldnt work" (the defense)  but hey what can you do... 

Ceicei, My boss has a Blackbelt in Taekwondo, but he still wont give us a bag.   Its too bad too, we have a small office (people wise) and we have 4 martial artists and a boxer there... a bag would be cool, and get used...


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## Cruentus (Aug 14, 2003)

I was very serious about becoming a cop. I ended up getting snatched up by the largest Private Bank in the World (before I could go through personell at Oakland County) to work in research, and now I run a wealth management group. Kind of a different path, one that I don't regret, and one that my fiancee is very happy with. There are a lot of "perks" over a "regular" job, such as not having to work nights and holidays, not having to deal with the scum of the world all day long, not being looked at with fear or hatred every time I have to do my job, and not getting shot at, etc. Ya know....perks. 

Well, getting back on subject, I did a lot of research into the job, including a drive along during a shift. One thing I realized is that there are a lot of things that go on that the public doesn't realize. Sure, it seems like a cop can "speed" whenever they want, or run red lights whenever they want, but usually they are on a call, or doing something that their job requires. 

Cops have the authority to run by a different set of rules then civilians, especially when they are on the clock. And they should. And as civilians, we shouldn't *****. You could just as "easily" get the "privilages" of a cop too. Just take your M-Coles (or whatever test your state requires), go to academy, then get a job making S**T money working mid-night shifts at the jail, and taking S**t jobs for at least your 1st 5 years or more before your able to get all the "perks," and before you start making a decent living. Go right ahead....

I, personally, would rather pick my battles. There are cases of bad cops abusing authority; and I'd rather speak up against those. I am not going to complain about a cop "disobeying" a traffic law, or carrying a gun, or any of the little stuff because chances are, they are doing their job.


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## clapping_tiger (Aug 14, 2003)

> How often do we actually notice the GOOD of ANYTHING? How often do you call the phone company to say thanks for your sevice working for the last 3 months straight? How often do you thank your husband/wife for being there when you come home, or wake up? Or how often do we call our mechanic to thank them for our car running very well for the last year since they worked on it last?



I agree with this statement also, I am very thankful that most of the police do their job, and do it well in my community. The problem I have is off duty hours. *Some* of the younger officers (early to late twenties) drink (heavily) and drive,  and I have even heard rumors of marijuana use(I find it a little hard to believe, you would think they get tested regularly). I have seen the drinking and driving, but I have not seen first hand the drug usage. I have been told by one of my friends that they enjoy hanging out with these guys because it is a get out of jail free card. I don't know if there is any truth to that, but I have never seen a cop in the paper getting a fine or a revocation because of drunk driving. Kind of makes me wonder...


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## brianhunter (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by clapping_tiger _
> *I agree with this statement also, I am very thankful that most of the police do their job, and do it well in my community. The problem I have is off duty hours. Some of the younger officers (early to late twenties) drink (heavily) and drive,  and I have even heard rumors of marijuana use(I find it a little hard to believe, you would think they get tested regularly). I have seen the drinking and driving, but I have not seen first hand the drug usage. I have been told by one of my friends that they enjoy hanging out with these guys because it is a get out of jail free card. I don't know if there is any truth to that, but I have never seen a cop in the paper getting a fine or a revocation because of drunk driving. Kind of makes me wonder... *



Sometimes thats about perception, I will meet someone not work related and hang out and once they find out Im a police officer the first thing out of their mouth is "so I wont get a ticket speeding if I know you right?" I didnt bring it up, but they went there. The only privalege I ever enjoyed as far as jail is calling one of the deputies (close friend) that I know and telling him to go tell my little brother who was arrested to not be acting like a dumbass because hell get more charges and to call me when he can bond out. If that is even a privalege I guess.
My dept. we have had officers fired for DUI, the county I work within there was a deputy arrested for driving drunk and the sheriff himself showed up at the intoxilizer testing to see the results personally needless to say that deputy was canned. There was also a deputy arrested for domestic violence and fired (you cant carry a gun in KS if you are convicted of DV) 
But honestly the best solution is to go ride a long with an officer if the dept has that program or get the facts and make a PROFESSIONAL inquisitive call to a supervisor dont call up "I SAW THAT SOB BLOW A LIGHT AND SPEEDING AND I WANT HIS DAMNED BADGE" that will get you written off faster than anything.
There are checks and balances for anything and some people can get away with a lot of things forever but it will eventually catch up with them (the officer that got the dui and fired is one of them)
Most officers I know are so liability conscience now a days they would be afraid to let a drunk go if an accident would of occured after the stop and it is found out guess whos liable and could have prevented that accident? Food for thought


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## lvwhitebir (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *I stand by that question... Why wouldnt it be OK for me to speed, providing I claimed I was trying to prevent a crime???  *



In most states you can only perform a citizen's arrest for felonies.  Speeding or running a red light doesn't count.  In some states, if you capture the guy and turn him in, he has the right to sue you (which can win if the case against him isn't good).  This is in place so I can't just haul my neighbor up on trumped up charges and get away with it.

WhiteBirch


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## Cryozombie (Aug 18, 2003)

Interestingly enough... I just found out I CAN pursue a suspected drunk driver, providing I have a cell phone and am on the line with the police, untill a cop arrives to continue the "pursuit".  If the person WAS drunk... I get 100 bucks.


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## Seig (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *Interestingly enough... I just found out I CAN pursue a suspected drunk driver, providing I have a cell phone and am on the line with the police, untill a cop arrives to continue the "pursuit".  If the person WAS drunk... I get 100 bucks. *


Just think, if you get 2 a night five nights a week, you can quit your day job!


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## OULobo (Aug 18, 2003)

This thread has motivated me. My community has a PR program called Community Police Academy. It involves interacting with the local police once a week for 3 hours for 12 weeks. They cover community relations, SWAT, firearms, K-9, self-defence, DUI, patrol, traffic and dispatch. There is also a ride along. I signed up this week. I figure this may be an opportunity to see exactly what some of the things the police do are, not to mention it sounds like just a cool idea.


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## theletch1 (Aug 18, 2003)

OUlobo, great idea.  Get involved in your community policing and see just what these guys go through on a regular basis.  Truck drivers turn in drunk drivers all the time.  We can't chase them down but we can keep the chase going from truck to truck with the C.B. radio and a cell phone call to the cops.  Drunks are only the tip of the iceberg that you see on the road. I've seen people passing joints back and forth in the front seat, cruising along with liquor bottles in their laps and a LOT of stuff going on at 65 or 70 miles an hour that I just can't write here.  (Remember, folks, the cab of a truck sits a good deal higher than the passenger compartment of your car )


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## jeffkyle (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *OUlobo, great idea.  Get involved in your community policing and see just what these guys go through on a regular basis.  Truck drivers turn in drunk drivers all the time.  We can't chase them down but we can keep the chase going from truck to truck with the C.B. radio and a cell phone call to the cops.  Drunks are only the tip of the iceberg that you see on the road. I've seen people passing joints back and forth in the front seat, cruising along with liquor bottles in their laps and a LOT of stuff going on at 65 or 70 miles an hour that I just can't write here.  (Remember, folks, the cab of a truck sits a good deal higher than the passenger compartment of your car ) *



The life of a truck driver....Must be pretty interesting!


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## dearnis.com (Aug 18, 2003)

> This thread has motivated me. My community has a PR program called Community Police Academy



I'm glad to hear you are taking advantage of this.  I think you will have a lot of fun, but also have your eyes opened.  I often recommend our department's program (we call it the citizens academy) to individuals with questions or issues about how and why we do things.

I would actually ask that you post a review when you are finished the course. I think it would be more constructive than this thread has been.

Chad


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## theletch1 (Aug 18, 2003)

> The life of a truck driver....Must be pretty interesting



The good stuff is not as frequent as it could be to make it all that interesting.  I averaged 120,000 miles a year when I ran long haul.  That's a lot of time alone, dealing with hyper-restrictive regulations, people in cars who have no idea how to interact with trucks, a growing trend towards new truckers who don't have any idea how to be a real driver (safety, courtesy) and an increase in vehicle traffic on the interstates that make even driving at night a pain.  I'm one of the lucky ones.  I have a dedicated run.  It's 425 miles a night, five nights a week.  I get home daily (when I was long haul I was gone 3 weeks at a time) and I have weekends off.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *The good stuff is not as frequent as it could be to make it all that interesting.  I averaged 120,000 miles a year when I ran long haul.  That's a lot of time alone, dealing with hyper-restrictive regulations, people in cars who have no idea how to interact with trucks, a growing trend towards new truckers who don't have any idea how to be a real driver (safety, courtesy) and an increase in vehicle traffic on the interstates that make even driving at night a pain.  I'm one of the lucky ones.  I have a dedicated run.  It's 425 miles a night, five nights a week.  I get home daily (when I was long haul I was gone 3 weeks at a time) and I have weekends off. *



Besides the long, weird hours....Of course!


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## M F (Aug 18, 2003)

> I stand by that question... Why wouldnt it be OK for me to speed, providing I claimed I was trying to prevent a crime???



Many jurisdictions have conditions that allow you to commit minor offenses in order to prevent more serious offenses or apprehend offenders.  An example would be the case you cited, where you speed to keep up with an intoxicated driver, while reporting the incident to police.  You may be able to use this defense in the event you take down and restrain(assault) an individual who was assaulting another individual.  Or forcibly taking keys(theft) from someone about to drive while intoxicated.  

disclaimer:  I am not an attorney, so don't take my word for it.  Check your local regulations before doing any of these things.


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## Aaron (Aug 19, 2003)

You guys are all right.  I wish I could say something more profound than that but I'm at the tail end of a 20 hour day.  I thought the conversation was going to turn south on LEO there for a minute but it pulled out nicely.

My thanks to Mr. Hunter for explaining our side of the story.  As for the citizen academy thing, they are a lot of fun.  I regularly teach meth lab stuff at our departments citizen academy and really enjoy the type of people that show up.  I would recommend it to anyone interested in what it's like to be on the other side of the flashing lights.  I'm impressed that some of you went exploring law enforcement after reading this.

If any of you guys are in my neck of the woods let me know, you can ride out with me any time!  

Like I said, you all are all right!

Aaron

PS-I'm going home now to see if my family remembers who I am!


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## brianhunter (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aaron _
> *PS-I'm going home now to see if my family remembers who I am! *



Yeah I had a family once.....I cant remember where they went after I got the 11pm-7am shift with weds thurs off LOL Keep the faith man


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