# How many of you BJJ guys train hip throws (Ogashi)?



## Alan Smithee

I'm curious since they do it here for the blue belt grading. Gracies schools are known to train takedowns as well. It's perfectly legal in tournaments but not very often used.

Is it part of every BJJ curriculum?


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## drop bear

We do it for BJJ and MMA it isn't a huge part because people tend to mess it up and get choked. 

But it is definitely there.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> We do it for BJJ and MMA it isn't a huge part because people tend to mess it up and get choked.
> 
> But it is definitely there.



When you say it isn't a huge part of a BJJ, you mean what exactly? Once a week? Once a month? Once every 6 month?


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## drop bear

Once a month Mabye. There would be two guys in our gym who ever actually uses it. 

(I did it once in a comp but otherwise not so much)


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> Once a month Mabye. There would be two guys in our gym who ever actually uses it.
> 
> (I did it once in a comp but otherwise not so much)



Wow! Yet you still grade in it like that school I linked to? I could easily miss those classes by coincidence.


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## Alan Smithee

I was assured by the instructor that they do takedowns every week. I'm guessing it's not that one


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> Wow! Yet you still grade in it like that school I linked to? I could easily miss those classes by coincidence.



Yep. And so could become a black belt without ever having a functional hip throw.

No big loss. There are plenty of techniques that you may never become functional at.


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> I was assured by the instructor that they do takedowns every week. I'm guessing it's not that one



They might.

In all honesty double leg single leg are more practical. Sort of.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> They might.
> 
> In all honesty double leg single leg are more practical. Sort of.



Yeah even in elite Judo where hip tosses are associated with that martial art, they are not that common


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## drop bear

My coach recently wrestled a brown believe who just sat on his **** the whole round.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> . And so could become a black belt without ever having a functional hip throw..



Well, I have hip thrown someone in a fight much larger than me without every having trained grappling. I did not think it was hard, yet a lot of people claim it is... I just used his momentum, it wasn't any brute force behind it.

I'm not saying it to brag, trying to make a point. How can you suck at it?:S


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> Well, I have hip thrown someone in a fight much larger than me without every having trained grappling. I did not think it was hard, yet a lot of people claim it is... I just used his momentum, it wasn't any brute force behind it.
> 
> I'm not saying it to brag, trying to make a point. How can you suck at it?:S


Did the dude you fought know how to resist a hip throw? It's a different thing doing it against an untrained person rushing at you, then a judoka or mma fighter (or boxer even).


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## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> Did the dude you fought know how to resist a hip throw? It's a different thing doing it against an untrained person rushing at you, then a judoka or mma fighter (or boxer even).



He was in for it the second time he got up but I still flipped him again. I'm a good athlete so I'm not gonna pretend as if I'm your average joe but I only did what I had seen in movies.

Maybe Judo is a bit of an innate thing..


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> Well, I have hip thrown someone in a fight much larger than me without every having trained grappling. I did not think it was hard, yet a lot of people claim it is... I just used his momentum, it wasn't any brute force behind it.
> 
> I'm not saying it to brag, trying to make a point. How can you suck at it?:S



I tried it on people who could fight back.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> I tried it on people who could fight back.



He cut me with an elbow when I clinched him. But he still got flipped.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> Well, I have hip thrown someone in a fight much larger than me without every having trained grappling.


How did you move in? Did you spin your body?

The traditional hip throw has the following issues.

- You need to spin your body and give your back to your opponent.
- Since your opponent's both legs are free, it's easy for him to step in front of you and escape.
- Your opponent can crack your elbow joint on your waist holding arm.
- Your opponent can press down your leg behind your knee.
- Your opponent can bounce you off with his belly.
- Your opponent's free hand can pull your head backward.
- ...

In order to solve those issues, the "entering strategy" is very important.


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## Hanzou

In Gracie JJ hip throws are fundamental, and are trained a lot. However, the reason you don't see them used often is because there's more effective takedowns for competition and MMA like Guard pulling and DLTs.


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## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> In Gracie JJ hip throws are fundamental, and are trained a lot. However, the reason you don't see them used often is because there's more effective takedowns for competition and MMA like Guard pulling and DLTs.



Double leg takedown run the risk of getting caught in a guillotine and lose on the spot. I would say the vast majority seem to pull guard in BJJ, which some argue isn't even a takedown technique.


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## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Double leg takedown run the risk of getting caught in a guillotine and lose on the spot. I would say the vast majority seem to pull guard in BJJ, which some argue isn't even a takedown technique.



And hip throws open you up for back takes.

Every throw or takedown has its share of risks. However if you look at MMA or BJJ, there's a reason you're mostly seeing DLTs and Guard Pulls. It's because they're high percentage takedowns with lower downsides than other throws or takedowns.


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## JP3

Alan Smithee said:


> Well, I have hip thrown someone in a fight much larger than me without every having trained grappling. I did not think it was hard, yet a lot of people claim it is... I just used his momentum, it wasn't any brute force behind it.
> 
> I'm not saying it to brag, trying to make a point. How can you suck at it?:S


Anything can be messed up, just as anything can work if all the pieces just fall into position.

Drop's referring to people who mess it up and end up getting choked is probably mostly due to the person trying to throw not having any kuzushi on their opponent (they didn't break the balance). If you don't take your opponent's balance as you enter for Ogoshi (it's two O letters, there's no "A" in Ogoshi by the way) then you are just giving them your back. If you did that, you probably don't have good control of their arm, either,a nd you just put it halfway into a rear naked. Almost like giving them an early Christmas present.

   People who are entering (poorly) for outside foot/leg techniques often just "walk onto" Ogoshi, used as a counter. Same basic problem of no kuzushi causes that, too.

Step No. 1 to all throwing techniques, break balance. Note (just as in your example) you dont even have to do anything to get their balance, they may just hand it over.


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## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> And hip throws open you up for back takes.
> 
> .



Not if you're competent


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## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Not if you're competent



No throw is foolproof, no matter how competent you are.

In fact, in my school we were taught to avoid hip throws entirely because they can leave you vulnerable. Like I said, there's a reason you don't see them much in MMA and sport BJJ.


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## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> No throw is foolproof, no matter how competent you are.
> 
> In fact, in my school we were taught to avoid hip throws entirely because they can leave you vulnerable. Like I said, there's a reason you don't see them much in MMA and sport BJJ.



MMA is no gi. You see them in BJJ whenever a black belt judoka competes


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## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> MMA is no gi. You see them in BJJ whenever a black belt judoka competes



Do you know of any black belt judokas competing (and winning) in elite Bjj tournaments?

I don't.


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## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> Do you know of any black belt judokas competing (and winning) in elite Bjj tournaments?
> 
> I don't.



I don't know if they won the tournament but they have performed various hip throws.


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## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> I don't know if they won the tournament but they have performed various hip throws.



Care to provide some examples? I've never seen it happen.


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## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> Care to provide some examples? I've never seen it happen.



Sure


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## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Sure



You said "various", not one or two hip throws thrown in the entire match.


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## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> You said "various", not one or two hip throws thrown in the entire match.



I wrote that various hip throws have been performed. I did not write anything about various in the same match, that's your inference.


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## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> I wrote that various hip throws have been performed. I did not write anything about various in the same match, that's your inference.



I misunderstood what you meant then. My mistake.


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## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> I misunderstood what you meant then. My mistake.



So you have seen hip throws in a BJJ competition?


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## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> I was assured by the instructor that they do takedowns every week. I'm guessing it's not that one


Grappling arts have a lot of takedowns. It's unlikely any given takedown would be seen every week.


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## Alan Smithee

I visited another BJJ school for comparison. They train takedowns positionally every session but only spar standing once a week, in the competitors group. No hip throw that session.

By contrast, the instructor for my club said "start standing all sparring* rounds*". Not sure if that is equivalent  to "every sparring session".


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## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> So you have seen hip throws in a BJJ competition?



Re-read post #22. I said that you don't see them much. I never said that you don't see them at all.


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> Not if you're competent



Can you please break down how you avoid a back take?


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## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Can you please break down how you avoid a back take?



Do they go for back takes in Judo stand up?


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Do they go for back takes in Judo stand up?



No idea.


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## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> Can you please break down how you avoid a back take?


Anybody who train "hip throw" should know this.

1. Don't rotate your body. You cut in from the side in a mirror stance (you have right side forward, your opponent has left side forward).
2. Use under hook (or cracking) to control your opponent's free arm so that free arm won't wrap around your waist.
3. Don't let your opponent's leading hand to reach to your leg.
4. Don't allow your opponent to stay in horse stance. Spring his foot and force him into a bow-arrow stance.

No body rotation in this hip throw. He cuts in from a side angle.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Do they go for back takes in Judo stand up?


Here are some back taken. The hand on the back of the leg and the hand around the waist can give one some trouble.


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## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are some back taken. The hand on the back of the leg and the hand around the waist can give one some trouble.



That's Shaio Jiao (sp?), not Judo.

Btw, any groundfighting in SJ?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> That's Shaio Jiao (sp?), not Judo.
> 
> Btw, any groundfighting in SJ?


I don't think defense and counter to hip throw should be any different between SC (or SJ) and Judo.

SC has no ground fight. Whoever's body touch on the ground first will lose that round. That's why you won't see pull guard used in any SC tournament.


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## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> SC has no ground fight. Whoever's body touch on the ground first will lose that round. That's why you won't see pull guard used in any SC tournament.



Hmmmm, that's a real shame.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> Can you please break down how you avoid a back take?



I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.



Easy you turn your back to throw and they defend it. Leaving you with your back exposed. Happens a lot if you try it on guys with takedown defense.

Here is Dan Kelly explaining the same problem. So I am as bad as a judo Olympian UFC fighter I guess.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.


Here is an example. If you don't control your opponent's arms well, his free hands can give you trouble.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> Easy you turn your back to throw and they defend it. Leaving you with your back exposed. Happens a lot if you try it on guys with takedown defense.
> 
> Here is Dan Kelly explaining the same problem. So I am as bad as a judo Olympian UFC fighter I guess.



That's no gi first of all. He showed losing grip of the opponent, which is epic failure. I thought you meant the opponent strangling you once you lift him up.


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> That's no gi first of all. He showed losing grip of the opponent, which is epic failure. I thought you meant the opponent strangling you once you lift him up.



No the oponant just slips his hips out. And the throw fails. A failed throw isn't always the end of the world unless you are then facing the wrong way with your back exposed.

Now you can either get really good at that throw and learn a bunch of adjusted versions. (I like to over rotate) or just do a safer easier to learn throw like a double leg where the defence to the couner is basically keeping your head up.

So you can quite often see these kind of weird hip throws in Beej.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> No the oponant just slips his hips out. And the throw fails. A failed throw isn't always the end of the world unless you are then facing the wrong way with your back exposed.
> 
> Now you can either get really good at that throw and learn a bunch of adjusted versions. (I like to over rotate) or just do a safer easier to learn throw like a double leg where the defence to the couner is basically keeping your head up.



Point is, he is not getting choked in an o-goshi. He is failing an o-goshi and then leaving himself in an exposed position. Two completely different things. Anything you do which does not "connect" leaves you perceptible to counters.


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## Kung Fu Wang

The hip throw and head lock should not go together.

- The hip throw is to lift your opponent's body up.
- The head lock is to press your opponent's head down.

Both force vectors contradict to each other.





[/QUOTE]


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> Point is, he is not getting choked in a o-goshi. He is failing an o-goshi and then leaving himself in an exposed position. Two completely different things. Anything you do which does not "connect" leaves you perceptible to counters.



Yeah but there is hierarchy of position. So a failed ogoshi leaves your back exposed when a failed double leg doesn't. (Or technically hip bump or whizzer in that sort of position.)

And so then you make the choice do you risk your back taken on a failed throw or go for something else and maby end up back in a fifty fifty.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> Yeah but there is hierarchy of position. So a failed ogoshi leaves your back exposed when a failed double leg doesn't. (Or technically hip bump or whizzer in that sort of position.)
> 
> And so then you make the choice do you risk your back taken on a failed throw or go for something else and maby end up back in a fifty fifty.



You can have a successful double leg (meaning it connects) and still get guillotined, even going down with him to the ground. That's a huge difference. If the o-goshi connects and you have competence, the person is getting tossed.


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## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The hip throw and head lock should not go together.
> 
> - The hip throw is to lift your opponent's body up.
> - The head lock is to press your opponent's head down.
> 
> Both force vectors contradict to each other.


[/QUOTE]

If you push a person's head down and hips up at the same time they will probably fall over.


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## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> If you push a person's head down and hips up at the same time they will probably fall over.


Since a

- short person can't reach to a tall person's head, hip throw is designed to be used by a short person to throw a tall person (lower body control).
- tall person can't reach to a short person's waist, head lock is designed to be used by a tall person to throw a short person (upper body control).


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> You can have a successful double leg (meaning it connects) and still get guillotined, even going down with him to the ground. That's a huge difference. If the o-goshi connects and you have competence, the person is getting tossed.



Yes but a guillotine isn't as bad as having your back taken.

Apart from the defence to a guillotine from a double leg is looking up, apart from if you get caught in a guillotine and escape the guard you are in a dominant position and can von flue choke the guy and apart from even if you get caught in guard you have top position and gab generally fight your way out.

You will at no point get suplexed. Which is quite simply to be avoided because it sucks.

Ian Bone MMA-Fitness Coach


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## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since a
> 
> - short person can't reach to a tall person's head, hip throw is designed to be used by a short person to throw a tall person.
> - tall person can't reach to a short person's waist, head lock is designed to used by a tall person to throw a short person.



You know knees bend right? It makes people different heights.


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## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> You know knees bend right? It makes people different heights.


It makes no sense for a 9 feet tall guy to apply upward force vector hip throw on a 4 feet short guy.

"Hip throw" is also called "waist lift" because the upward force vector.

The

- ancient method is to use your hip to bounce your opponent's belly up.
- modern method is to wrap your arm around your opponent's waist and lift him up.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> Yes but a guillotine isn't as bad as having your back taken.



That is true, and an experienced practitioner has a good chance of escaping them, but it still remains true that a successful double leg can realistically result in counter sub, while a successful O-goshi cannot.


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> That is true, and an experienced practitioner has a good chance of escaping them, but it still remains true that a successful double leg can realistically result in counter sub, while a successful O-goshi cannot.



Yeah but you have to be successful. And guys like Dan Kelly have the issue that he is not always successful.


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## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you have to be successful. And guys like Dan Kelly have the issue that he is not always successful.



That is not the fault of the technique but the practitioner failing the technique. The double leg counter is the fault/drawback of the technique because it lends itself to people countering with the guillotine, which is not super hard to escape but I would not bet on it


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## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> That is not the fault of the technique but the practitioner failing the technique. The double leg counter is the fault/drawback of the technique because it lends itself to people countering with the guillotine, which is not super hard to escape but I would not bet on it



What you are describing is called a hail Mary. Where you put all your chips down at once and hope you pull your super move off Or you are basically done.

As fun a concept as that is it is generally frowned upon by most coaches who would rather you go for techniques with more rewards and less risk.

So I have done that kind of thing where I had 30 seconds left in a comp and pulled off a sacrifice throw. But I had exhausted pretty much every other option by the time I got there.


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## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Point is, he is not getting choked in an o-goshi. He is failing an o-goshi and then leaving himself in an exposed position. Two completely different things. Anything you do which does not "connect" leaves you perceptible to counters.



You can still get choked after a failed hip throw while standing. I call it the spider monkey because some a-hole jumps on your back and makes your life hell.

The point is if you screw up the hip throw, it's open season because you've given someone your back, which is probably the most dominant position in grappling. You might as well put a "please submit me" sign on your back, because anyone who knows what they're doing will capitalize on your screw up.

Like DB said, there's safer takedowns. The DLT is so common because its relatively low risk, and pretty easy to pull off.


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## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> Yes but a guillotine isn't as bad as having your back taken.


I think it should be the other way around. If someone

- takes my back, I can have many counters.
- puts a reverse head lock (guillotine) on me, his body weight can crash on top of my neck until I'm flat on the ground. No matter how strong that I'm, my neck is not strong enough to handle his full body weight.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> You can still get choked after a failed hip throw while standing.


This is why IMO the head lock is better than the hip throw. Instead of giving your opponent a chance to choke you. You can choke him first. Before your arm can lock on your opponent's head, your forearm can hit on the back of his head and knock him out half way already. Head lock has integrated the striking into the throw and hit throw has not. The hip throw is more sport than combat. In a fist flying environment, the hip throw is too civilized and conservative.

For any throw, if you enter through the mirror stance angle (you have right forward, your opponent has left forward), your opponent can't take your back.


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## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why IMO the head lock is better than the hip throw. Instead of giving your opponent a chance to choke you. You can choke him first. Before your arm can lock on your opponent's head, your forearm can hit on the back of his head and knock him out half way already. Head lock has integrated the striking into the throw and hit throw has not. The hip throw is more sport than combat. In a fist flying environment, the hip throw is too civilized and conservative.
> 
> For any throw, if you enter through the mirror stance angle (you have right forward, your opponent has left forward), your opponent can't take your back.



The headlock is actually easier to counter than the hip throw. It's one of the first counter moves a  white belt learns in Bjj, and it's probably that way in other MAs.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> The headlock is actually easier to counter than the hip throw.


There are over 20 different ways to counter a "head lock". But if you can crash your opponent's spine "side way" (not forward), none of his counter will work.


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## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.


Spoken with a clear lack of understanding.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It makes no sense for a 9 feet tall guy to apply upward force vector hip throw on a 4 feet short guy.
> 
> "Hip throw" is also called "waist lift" because the upward force vector.
> 
> The
> 
> - ancient method is to use your hip to bounce your opponent's belly up.
> - modern method is to wrap your arm around your opponent's waist and lift him up.


That's overly binary. Nearly everyone ever born, at adult height, is between those two measures. I can hip throw people shorter than me.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you have to be successful. And guys like Dan Kelly have the issue that he is not always successful.


Agreed. I think, with reliability factored in (the chance of getting it successfully), risk is higher for the hip throw. I still prefer them, but I feel less threatened by them, too.


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I can hip throw people shorter than me.


Of course you can. But you are not taking advantage on the nature physics.

The following are natural physics.

- A tall person apply foot sweep on a short guy.
- A short guy uses shoulder throw on a tall guy.
- A strong guy uses casting throw on a light weight guy.
- ...


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I can hip throw people shorter than me.


You have to be strong to throw your opponent by "casting".


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course you can. But you are not taking advantage on the nature physics.
> 
> The following are natural physics.
> 
> - A tall person apply foot sweep on a short guy.
> - A short guy uses shoulder throw on a tall guy.
> - A strong guy uses casting throw on a light weight guy.
> - ...


If you've ever been thrown well in a hip throw by someone taller (at the hip), you know there's an advantage to being able to get in under someone and send them flying. 

Oh, and hip throws and shoulder throws on someone much taller become easy to counter. There's a range - from a bit shorter to somewhat taller - where it's pretty easily accessible. Outside that range, not so much.

You're being binary about this. Someone an inch shorter at the hip doesn't present much different challenge for those throws.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have to be strong to throw your opponent by "casting".


I rarely cast. Just not much part of my training.


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> You're being binary about this.


Sometime MA discussion has to be binary and you have to choose side. If I say,

-"Do whatever you think is right for you."
- "Everything is just a trade off.
- "There is no absolute right, and there is no absolute wrong."
- "Sometime right is wrong, and sometime wrong is right."
- "I don't like to ague. most of the time I just have no option."
- ...

You may say, "If you shut up, nobody will think that you are mute."


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime MA discussion has to be binary and you have to choose side. If I say,
> 
> -"Do whatever you think is right for you."
> - "Everything is just a trade off.
> - "There is no absolute right, and there is no absolute wrong."
> - "Sometime right is wrong, and sometime wrong is right."
> - "I don't like to ague. most of the time I just have no option."
> - ...
> 
> You may say, "If you shut up, nobody will think that you are mute."


That's a false dichotomy, John. It's possible to recognize that nuance exists without accepting everything without question.


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> You're being binary about this.


Do you agree with the following binary statement.

- Narrow stance is risky for double legs and foot sweep.
- Wide stance is risky for single leg and leg spring.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you agree with the following binary statement.
> 
> - Narrow stance is risky for double legs and foot sweep.
> - Wide stance is risky for single leg and leg spring.


I agree with it as a general rule. I don’t think it’s always entirely binary - there are many more factors at play.


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## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> I can't. It's beyond my comprehension how you would allow that. So I'll have to ask you instead how bad you have you be.


You have to be SO bad that you would try it on a resisting opponent in a dynamic situation where you can't perfectly predict the other guys every step.


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## wab25

They might not be as safe as double and single leg take downs... but they are fun to watch!!!






Here are some more... okay some of these are wrestling throws as well, but a good throw is a good throw, is a good throw...






That allen wrench might not be your go to, works every where tool... but when you have a problem that it can solve, you are very glad to have one.


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## JP3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The hip throw and head lock should not go together.
> 
> - The hip throw is to lift your opponent's body up.
> - The head lock is to press your opponent's head down.
> 
> Both force vectors contradict to each other.


[/QUOTE]
Nailed the answer, KFW.

There IS a throw that "looks like" you're using a headlock to hip throw the opponent. Koshi guruma (head wheel).  Entry is just like O-goshi with the lead arm taking the off-balance, entering leg placing almost exactly where you'd place it for O-goshi. But, rear/power hand slides up and over the opponent's near shoulder, around the back of the neck and down the other side of the neck into what we traditionally call the headlock position.

To do the trow right, it's not "Hips Up, Head Down." It's a twisting, torque, rotational vector applied down the line (I know it's not straight) of the spine.

Once they go up at the hips, you "could" add some extra tobasco to it and pop your own hips, but it's not necessary. That's just be for show, or to be a d**k.


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## Kung Fu Wang

The under hook is more suitable for hip throw. The nice thing about the under hook is you only need to use one arm to lift under your opponent's shoulder.


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## quasar44

Alan Smithee said:


> I'm curious since they do it here for the blue belt grading. Gracies schools are known to train takedowns as well. It's perfectly legal in tournaments but not very often used.
> 
> Is it part of every BJJ curriculum?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> it’s to bad that most schools train for competition not old school Gracie self def


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