# Wtf



## rabbit (Sep 14, 2011)

How much time does a regular class spend on forms? Is it mostly drills.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 15, 2011)

The only answer to this is it depends on the class.

In our class, it depends on the week.  I'd generally say 20 minutes, but recently it's been a lot more as we're trying to standardise everyone closer to the Kukkiwon definitions.


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## ralphmcpherson (Sep 15, 2011)

We're not strictly WTF and we do palgwe forms, but we would spend probably 20 mins on average. Sometimes a lot more, sometimes a lot less. Coming into grading we tend to focus pretty heavily on form.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 15, 2011)

rabbit said:


> How much time does a regular class spend on forms? Is it mostly drills.



I don't know how much time TKD schools spend.  I seem to remember 40+ years ago we pent a fair amount of time on forms.  Perhaps to answer how much time should be spent, and is it is only a drill of perhaps questionable value, I think you should consider all forms as a multiple attacker defense.  Looked at that way, you might even want to spend time at home going through your forms.

If you weren't that wasn't the intent of your question, my apologies.


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## StudentCarl (Sep 15, 2011)

Depends on the plans for the particular class. With very rare exceptions, we'll do forms at least once through in every class. Right now I'm working with some groups to tighten up forms, so, for instance, last night with the family class we did forms for 3/4 of class, first tightening and coaching, then chaining them together. With some of the advanced classes, we'll sometimes do taegeuks 1-8 3 or 4 times through as a warmup.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2011)

I think it varies widely both from day to day, but also from school to school.
One of our 1st Dan students started college this year. The club he's working with there (run by a 6th or 7th Dan) spends virtually no time on forms. From what he says, 10-15 minutes once a week.
In our school, it varies from day to day. I'd say at least 10-15 minutes each class, sometimes more, and always more right around promotional exams. On average, we run through Kicho and Palgwe forms every class, with the Yudanja forms being done probably once a week. 
As extra, my wife & I are always there for about an hour before the beginner class starts and people who are struggling with a new form or are getting ready to test can come in early for extra work. It's also been suggested that (if the Y will let us have the room) it would be nice to add a 60-90 min Poomsae class one day each week.


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## msmitht (Sep 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> We're not strictly WTF and we do palgwe forms, but we would spend probably 20 mins on average. Sometimes a lot more, sometimes a lot less. Coming into grading we tend to focus pretty heavily on form.


you do know that the kkw and wtf stopped doing palgwe forms a LONG time ago, don't you?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2011)

msmitht said:


> you do know that the kkw and wtf stopped doing palgwe forms a LONG time ago, don't you?



So? Does that lessen the value of these traditional forms?


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## Master Dan (Sep 15, 2011)

varies every class and this is related to intermediate and advanced. We also require Palgwe forms 20-30 minutes with some specials we video tape individuals and replay on big screen in class so we can help them see problems with basic technique or especially manorisms or nervous ticks they mus break. We also have senior students who are learning to be instructors learn to identify different key problems to correct. At other times we select or explain discuss applications practical to the movements which is ongoing and evolves based on the experience and skill level of the student


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## Cyriacus (Sep 15, 2011)

msmitht said:


> you do know that the kkw and wtf stopped doing palgwe forms a LONG time ago, don't you?


...And?
Theyre still a part of the Style. Just because not everywere still teaches them doesnt make that less True.


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## msmitht (Sep 15, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> ...And?
> Theyre still a part of the Style. Just because not everywere still teaches them doesnt make that less True.


No, they are not. I have been to 3 master instructor courses (2 here, 1 in korea) and 4 poomsae seminars put on by the kukkiwon. Not once did we talk about or practice the Palgwe forms. If your school still does them then so be it. They are not part of Kukkiwon TKD anymore.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 15, 2011)

msmitht said:


> No, they are not. I have been to 3 master instructor courses (2 here, 1 in korea) and 4 poomsae seminars put on by the kukkiwon. Not once did we talk about or practice the Palgwe forms. If your school still does them then so be it. They are not part of Kukkiwon TKD anymore.



This is irrelevant to me, really. Im mainly saying that if a Dojang still practices them, then whether they are still KKW/WTF becomes debatable. But really, its Kukkiwon Standard with some Additional Forms. Is that so wrong?


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## miguksaram (Sep 15, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> This is irrelevant to me, really. Im mainly saying that if a Dojang still practices them, then whether they are still KKW/WTF becomes debatable. But really, its Kukkiwon Standard with some Additional Forms. Is that so wrong?


Yes a school can be KKW teaching obsolete forms in addition to the the Taeguks.  If they claiming KKW but just teaching palgwe forms then they are not adhering to KKW standards and henceforth not KKW.  They are just a TKD school teaching obsolete material.  Nothing wrong with it, that is their choice, but it is just KKW standards.


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## taekwondodo (Sep 15, 2011)

Before my instructor has Wednesday strictly for form class for his Team kids.  Each class is 45 minutes long and there were 3 different level of form classes.  Then I joined and convinced him to have more form classes.  So now we have 3 days a week for competitive poomsae.  The elite competition poomsae class, which I teach, is 1 hour long strictly concentrated on Poomsaes and techniques.


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## msmitht (Sep 15, 2011)

Ok people,There are stylistic differences between the taeguek poomsae and the palgwe forms. The palgwe forms are more like karate kata. The stances are wider and deeper than current kkw standards. If you are practicing them in addition to taegeuk poomsae then good for you. Outside of your school and mini org you will never need to know them. I am all about forms. I learned the chong han-set because it was the first tkd hyung(poomsae). One of my gm's did both taeguek and palgwe. Back in the 80's he told us that we would no longer need to do palgwe because the kkw dropped them, so we dropped them.Then again, some tournaments are still run with a head of court with only 2 points for any head shot. Some still allow blue, black and green doboks because it is their friends bb club dobok. Maybe we should go back to light touch point sparring and believe that the earth is flat.The real problem is master instructors and gm's not going back to school. Would you trust a doctor to do complex heart surgery if they had not attended a medical seminar in 30 years? Think there might be new, updated methods or technology? How about learning korean from someone who learned it 30 years ago. Do you think that the language has not changed? Get updated or stay outdated!


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Ok people,There are stylistic differences between the taeguek poomsae and the palgwe forms.



Of course there are. That doesn't mean they're not worth learning.



msmitht said:


> The palgwe forms are more like karate kata. The stances are wider and deeper than current kkw standards.



And attempting to deny the huge influence that karate had on the development of Tae Kwon Do is futile and dishonest. 



msmitht said:


> If you are practicing them in addition to taegeuk poomsae then good for you. Outside of your school and mini org you will never need to know them.



Not true at all. There are plenty of open tournaments where the palgwe forms would be every bit as acceptable as the taegeuk.



msmitht said:


> I am all about forms. I learned the chong han-set because it was the first tkd hyung(poomsae).




You mean, the Chang Hon tul with the long, wide stances? The influence of karate is every bit as apparent in the Chang Hon forms as in the Palgwe. Nor are they endorsed by the Kukkiwon. And yet, an awful lot of people seem to learn Tae Kwon Do just fine, while practicing them.



msmitht said:


> One of my gm's did both taeguek and palgwe. Back in the 80's he told us that we would no longer need to do palgwe because the kkw dropped them, so we dropped them.Then again, some tournaments are still run with a head of court with only 2 points for any head shot. Some still allow blue, black and green doboks because it is their friends bb club dobok. Maybe we should go back to light touch point sparring and believe that the earth is flat.The real problem is master instructors and gm's not going back to school. Would you trust a doctor to do complex heart surgery if they had not attended a medical seminar in 30 years? Think there might be new, updated methods or technology? How about learning korean from someone who learned it 30 years ago. Do you think that the language has not changed? Get updated or stay outdated!



Alternatively, some might simple be unwilling to ignore, deny or forget the origins of the art. The palgwes are not "obsolete". 

Tae Kwon Do exists outside and completely independent of the Kukkiwon. Open your mind.


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## msmitht (Sep 15, 2011)

1. I was referring to kkw/usat/wtf schools. 2. I do not attend tourneys that allow any other forms except taeguek. 3. I know perfectly well that almost all of the founders had trained in japanese karate. I also know that the current martial art/sport of tkd wad developed in korea and has more practitioners than any other martial art including the "other" tkd styles.4. After the gun was invented the bow and arrow became obsolete mind is wide open


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> 2. I do not attend tourneys that allow any other forms except taeguek.
> mind is wide open



These two statements are self contradictory. Think about it.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 16, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course there are. That doesn't mean they're not worth learning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thankyou for Phrasing that somewhat better than I did.
My Initial Reply entailed saying that these Forms are a part of Taekwondo. And you dont need to be a "Mini-Organisation" to Practise them.




msmitht said:


> 1. I was referring to kkw/usat/wtf schools. 2. I do not attend tourneys that allow any other forms except taeguek. 3. I know perfectly well that almost all of the founders had trained in japanese karate. I also know that the current martial art/sport of tkd wad developed in korea and has more practitioners than any other martial art including the "other" tkd styles.4. After the gun was invented the bow and arrow became obsolete mind is wide open


1; We know.
2; Nice Open Mindedness 
3.5; I fail to see how the Second Half is relevant. Unless youre secretly saying "Silly 'Other' TKD Styles. *Scoffs*".
4; And yet, Archery is still Actively Practiced. And Unarmed Combat is still utilised by the Military, despite Short Range Firearms being Invented.




miguksaram said:


> *Yes* a school *can be KKW* teaching obsolete forms *in addition to the the Taeguks*. If they claiming KKW but just teaching palgwe forms then they are not adhering to KKW standards and henceforth not KKW. They are just a TKD school teaching obsolete material. Nothing wrong with it, that is their choice, but it is just KKW standards.



Just to make sure im reading you Correctly, youd Agree that a School is still KKW, as long as they dont *Just* teach the Palgwe, and that the Palgwe are an Addition, rather than the Focus?

--

Must We Remain Derailed?


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## andyjeffries (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> "2. I do not attend tourneys that allow any other forms except taeguek"
> 2; Nice Open Mindedness



I don't think it is a contradiction.  I am the same as msmitht, it's not because I think other forms are worse - just that I don't enjoy watching them as much as for me it's in the technical details not in the "performance".  So I cannot judge technical details as well in poomsae I do not know.  It doesn't make me closed minded, just that as a personal preference I prefer watching forms I know (and hence with a limited amount of cash, I choose those).


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## Cyriacus (Sep 16, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I don't think it is a contradiction.  I am the same as msmitht, it's not because I think other forms are worse - just that I don't enjoy watching them as much as for me it's in the technical details not in the "performance".  So I cannot judge technical details as well in poomsae I do not know.  It doesn't make me closed minded, just that as a personal preference I prefer watching forms I know (and hence with a limited amount of cash, I choose those).


Im mainly addressing the viability of a Dojang still being a KKW Dojang just because it teaches these Forms Additionally.

Im not so much calling it a Contradiction, as much as questioning Open Mindedness.
Now, there is a CHANCE that he just phrased that Terribly, and didnt mean for it to read as "I only attend Tourneys that allow Taeguek AND NOTHING ELSE". But hey, as it stands.

Which isnt questioning Personal Choice - Its just that his Personal Viewing Preference isnt quite relevant to the Discussion at hand, if thats the case.
The Discussion at hand is; "Can It Still Be A KKW Dojang, If It Practitions Palgwe In Addition To Taeguek, For The Sake Of Tradition, Completionism, Or Any Other Cause?"

Well, Actually, the Discussion is meant to be about how long WTF Dojangs spend doing Forms. But since were now in this Middle of this Conversation, ill just Wager on either the Debate Ending, or Me Agreeing to Disagree in the Hopes this Poor Thread wont be Derailed for any more Time than it needs to be for a bit of Idle Banter.


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## miguksaram (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Just to make sure im reading you Correctly, youd Agree that a School is still KKW, as long as they dont *Just* teach the Palgwe, and that the Palgwe are an Addition, rather than the Focus?--
> 
> Must We Remain Derailed?


What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank.  If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school.  

Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.


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## miguksaram (Sep 16, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> These two statements are self contradictory. Think about it.


No they do not.  What I have an open mind about food but I refuse to eat brussel sprouts nor will I order any dinner that has brussel sprouts in it.  Why, because I have tasted brussel sprouts and do not like the taste.  Does this make me closed minded?

He has been to enough tournaments where Palgwe or other forms are allowed to be used and has developed a distaste for how they are ran.  So he just avoids those types of tournaments.  He is open minded, he just does not like certain things based on what he experienced in the past.


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## miguksaram (Sep 16, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course there are. That doesn't mean they're not worth learning.


I believe he said that they are obsolete and rendered useless outside of the school or organization that you might be with.  While they may still be in use in some open tournaments, they are still obsolete forms when it comes to KKW standards.  This is no different than for me to go out and learning pascal programming.  While it may be worth learning, it is not widely used nor does it help as much as opposed to learning 'C' language.



> And attempting to deny the huge influence that karate had on the development of Tae Kwon Do is futile and dishonest.


How is he denying karate's influence?  Just because you don't practice 'karate' life forms you deny the roots?  Are you saying a doctor not using leeches is denying the influence of mid-evil development of medicine? Modern practice, modern development of poomsae.  

I notice you have a TSD logo.  I will assume you practice all chuan'fa and Shotokan forms as well as your TSD forms so not to deny it roots?



> Not true at all. There are plenty of open tournaments where the palgwe forms would be every bit as acceptable as the taegeuk.


They may be accepted, but how many people utilize them?  Being a part of NASKA and AKA I have rarely seen Palgwe forms used in open tournaments.  However, I do see Gaebaek and Koryo done a lot.



> You mean, the Chang Hon tul with the long, wide stances? The influence of karate is every bit as apparent in the Chang Hon forms as in the Palgwe. Nor are they endorsed by the Kukkiwon. And yet, an awful lot of people seem to learn Tae Kwon Do just fine, while practicing them.


No one is saying that they are not learning TKD.  What we are saying is that they are not learning KKW TKD IF they are not learning and using taeguks as the core poomsae set in which to promote their students.  Why you decided to take this into the whole direction is a bit beyond me.



> Alternatively, some might simple be unwilling to ignore, deny or forget the origins of the art. The palgwes are not "obsolete".
> Tae Kwon Do exists outside and completely independent of the Kukkiwon. Open your mind.


Already answered in the above.  No one is denying roots and no one is saying you are not doing TKD if you are not doing KKW forms.


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## miguksaram (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, Actually, the Discussion is meant to be about how long WTF Dojangs spend doing Forms. But since were now in this Middle of this Conversation, ill just Wager on either the Debate Ending, or Me Agreeing to Disagree in the Hopes this Poor Thread wont be Derailed for any more Time than it needs to be for a bit of Idle Banter.



This is par for the course.  Most all of our threads get hijacked. ha.ha.ha.ha..


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## DSMartialArts (Sep 16, 2011)

rabbit said:


> How much time does a regular class spend on forms? Is it mostly drills.



It varies from school and class. At my school Wednesday is Forms day. Our class is 1 1/2 hours so for the first 45 minutes we do basic drills and second 45 minutes are spent on forms. Monday is Self Defense and Friday is just a mix, sometimes forms sometimes not.


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## DSMartialArts (Sep 16, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it varies widely both from day to day, but also from school to school.
> One of our 1st Dan students started college this year. The club he's working with there (run by a 6th or 7th Dan) spends virtually no time on forms. From what he says, 10-15 minutes once a week.
> In our school, it varies from day to day. I'd say at least 10-15 minutes each class, sometimes more, and always more right around promotional exams. On average, we run through Kicho and Palgwe forms every class, with the Yudanja forms being done probably once a week.
> As extra, my wife & I are always there for about an hour before the beginner class starts and people who are struggling with a new form or are getting ready to test can come in early for extra work. It's also been suggested that (if the Y will let us have the room) it would be nice to add a 60-90 min Poomsae class one day each week.



It depends on how the instructors view forms, some people don't see,understand  or like forms, so they don't spend time teaching them, except maybe for belt testing purposes. One of our instructor loves forms, any new form you can find to teach her she will gladly learn and teach it, no matter the style of origin. I have come to see the form as a good teaching tool. The students get repetion and they reinforce basics. You need a strong foundation to build a strong house. Just my opinion.


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## msmitht (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Thankyou for Phrasing that somewhat better than I did.
> My Initial Reply entailed saying that these Forms are a part of Taekwondo. And you dont need to be a "Mini-Organisation" to Practise them.
> 
> My reference was to CURRENT KKW tkd
> ...


Your opinion differs from mine. No big deal. nuff said.


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## msmitht (Sep 16, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank.  If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school.
> 
> Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.


exactly


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## msmitht (Sep 16, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I believe he said that they are obsolete and rendered useless outside of the school or organization that you might be with.  While they may still be in use in some open tournaments, they are still obsolete forms when it comes to KKW standards.  This is no different than for me to go out and learning pascal programming.  While it may be worth learning, it is not widely used nor does it help as much as opposed to learning 'C' language.
> 
> 
> How is he denying karate's influence?  Just because you don't practice 'karate' life forms you deny the roots?  Are you saying a doctor not using leeches is denying the influence of mid-evil development of medicine? Modern practice, modern development of poomsae.
> ...


Ditto


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## msmitht (Sep 16, 2011)

All forms can be useful. My references were for advancing in KKW tkd and competing at their tournaments(WTF/USAT). Trying to make me look like I do not know or care about the roots of tkd is not only ridiculous it is rude. It is the same as trying to put words in my mouth. It would be the same as me saying that you do TSD so you dont know jack about CURRENT, modern day TKD. Did I mention that one of my gms was a direct student of Hwang Kee and that in addition to my KKW 5th dan I hold a MDK 6th dan, a itf 2nd dan and a Brown belt in BJJ? Oh that's right, I am close minded.
You should know who and what you are talking about b4 you speak (write).
If you want you could teach TKD dance, weapons training and gymnastics at your school. Good for you if you do. When it comes time to test for your KUKKIWON DAN all that matters are the Taegueks, Yondanja poomsae, breaking and sparring. Anything else only matters to your school(don't get me wrong, learning other styles and forms will help you become a better martial artist)

to answer the OP, we train poomsae 25% of every class except for the competition sparring class(obviously)


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## puunui (Sep 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Ok people,There are stylistic differences between the taeguek poomsae and the palgwe forms. The palgwe forms are more like karate kata. The stances are wider and deeper than current kkw standards. If you are practicing them in addition to taegeuk poomsae then good for you. Outside of your school and mini org you will never need to know them. I am all about forms. I learned the chong han-set because it was the first tkd hyung(poomsae). One of my gm's did both taeguek and palgwe.




I was told that the technical standards for Taeguek and Palgwae poomsae are the same, especially the stances. In both sets, the stances are shorter and narrower than the typical karate standard, closer to the Okinawan standard.


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## msmitht (Sep 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> I was told that the technical standards for Taeguek and Palgwae poomsae are the same, especially the stances. In both sets, the stances are shorter and narrower than the typical karate standard, closer to the Okinawan standard.


If you follow the current KKW tkd standards then yes, the basics are the same. Most GMs (not all)who still teach the Palgwe form set use the older, wider stances. Anyone who learned tkd before the 1980's learned long and wide front stances, triple shoulder width horse and back stances and long, non squared tiger stances. That was the norm back then.
You have to take into consideration the fact that many tkd masters and GMs were originally itf/mdk/tsd that converted to KKW tkd. They kept the stances the same and just learned the new patterns.


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## ATC (Sep 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> If you follow the current KKW tkd standards then yes, the basics are the same. Most GMs (not all)who still teach the Palgwe form set use the older, wider stances. Anyone who learned tkd before the 1980's learned long and wide front stances, triple shoulder width horse and back stances and long, non squared tiger stances. That was the norm back then.
> You have to take into consideration the fact that many tkd masters and GMs were originally itf/mdk/tsd that converted to KKW tkd. They kept the stances the same and just learned the new patterns.


Yes, under our old master we were MDK but did the taegueks with old stances. When our current master took over and went to the KKW standards it took forever to retrain the muscle memory to shorten and narrow in the stances. We still get students in from time to time that have come back after years off and they all have (had) wide and long and deep stances.

Now that I am use to the new stances it is a lot better on my knees and hips. I could not go back to the old ways if I wanted to.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Your opinion differs from mine. No big deal. nuff said.



Im more than willing to accept that.

Just one thing though;

--
A:​

miguksaram said:


> What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school.
> 
> *Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.*





msmitht said:


> exactly



B:



msmitht said:


> Ok people,There are stylistic differences between the taeguek poomsae and the palgwe forms. The palgwe forms are more like karate kata. The stances are wider and deeper than current kkw standards. *If you are practicing them in addition to taegeuk poomsae then good for you. Outside of your school and mini org you will never need to know them.* I am all about forms.



C:



msmitht said:


> No, they are not. I have been to 3 master instructor courses (2 here, 1 in korea) and 4 poomsae seminars put on by the kukkiwon. Not once did we talk about or practice the Palgwe forms. *If your school still does them then so be it. They are not part of Kukkiwon TKD anymore.*




--

Logical Contradiction in Reasoning.
And im full well aware thats being either Picky or Observant, depending on your Viewpoint 

Just My Contribution, to Extending this Derailment ​


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## msmitht (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Im more than willing to accept that.Just one thing though;--A:​B:C:--Logical Contradiction in Reasoning.And im full well aware thats being either Picky or Observant, depending on your Viewpoint ??????Just My Contribution, to Extending this Derailment ​


??????


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## puunui (Sep 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> If you follow the current KKW tkd standards then yes, the basics are the same. Most GMs (not all)who still teach the Palgwe form set use the older, wider stances. Anyone who learned tkd before the 1980's learned long and wide front stances, triple shoulder width horse and back stances and long, non squared tiger stances. That was the norm back then.
> You have to take into consideration the fact that many tkd masters and GMs were originally itf/mdk/tsd that converted to KKW tkd. They kept the stances the same and just learned the new patterns.



What you say is true. However, when the KTA Ad Hoc Committee created the Palgwae, Yudanja and Taeguek poomsae, they were created using the shorter more natural stances which by the way were originally taught back in the 1940's. In 1967, when the KTA was meeting to discuss the creation of the new poomsae, GM LEE Won Kuk returned to Korea and gave a series of seminars emphasizing the shorter, more natural, narrower stances, which is what he learned in Japan. But after he left, his students and others became fascinated with Japanese Karate and the stances became wider and longer, during the later 50's and early 60's (which by the way is when many of the grandmasters out there began learning). GM LEE Won Kuk was upset about that, gave his seminars, which was incorporated in the new KTA poomsae in 1967-1972. So the new poomsae were always supposed to be done with the shorter narrower stances (you cannot land on your starting mark otherwise). Many instructors, having trained for a number of years in the longer wider stance (which is a competition stance by the way, think of the angle and width of a cover punch for example), felt comfortable with that and as you say, did it that way when doing the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae.


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## puunui (Sep 16, 2011)

ATC said:


> Yes, under our old master we were MDK but did the taegueks with old stances.




Who was the original master of your dojang?


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## Cyriacus (Sep 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> ??????


First you say that if a School teaches Palgwe, they are No Longer KKW Standard, even if its just in Addition. And are a Mini-Org.

Then, agree with miguksaram, with the Response, "Exactly", to his Reply;
"
What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school. 

*Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.
*"

In other words, first you are saying that a School is no longer KKW if it teaches Palgwe, even in addition.
Then agree that "Anything else they Teach OUTSIDE of the Standards by the KKW is Totally up to the Individual School."


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## msmitht (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> First you say that if a School teaches Palgwe, they are No Longer KKW Standard, even if its just in Addition. And are a Mini-Org.Then, agree with miguksaram, with the Response, "Exactly", to his Reply;"What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school. *Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.*"In other words, first you are saying that a School is no longer KKW if it teaches Palgwe, even in addition.Then agree that "Anything else they Teach OUTSIDE of the Standards by the KKW is Totally up to the Individual School."
> Ok, I get it now. What I meant was you will never be required to perform the palgwe forms For kukkiwon promotion. Individual schools can teach what they want and can be kkw schools but taeguek, yondanja poomsae, kyroogi and kyuk pa are the only requirements that the kkw grades on. Whatever an instructor adds on is up to them but is not a part of kkw tkd.Does that clarify? I can see how you may have read it wrong.


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## msmitht (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> First you say that if a School teaches Palgwe, they are No Longer KKW Standard, even if its just in Addition. And are a Mini-Org.Then, agree with miguksaram, with the Response, "Exactly", to his Reply;"What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school. *Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.*"In other words, first you are saying that a School is no longer KKW if it teaches Palgwe, even in addition.Then agree that "Anything else they Teach OUTSIDE of the Standards by the KKW is Totally up to the Individual School."


Never said they were no longer a kkw school. Said the palgwe forms we're no longer required by kkw


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## Cyriacus (Sep 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Cyriacus said:
> 
> 
> > First you say that if a School teaches Palgwe, they are No Longer KKW Standard, even if its just in Addition. And are a Mini-Org.Then, agree with miguksaram, with the Response, "Exactly", to his Reply;"What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school. *Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.*"In other words, first you are saying that a School is no longer KKW if it teaches Palgwe, even in addition.Then agree that "Anything else they Teach OUTSIDE of the Standards by the KKW is Totally up to the Individual School."
> ...


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I don't think it is a contradiction.  I am the same as msmitht, it's not because I think other forms are worse - just that I don't enjoy watching them as much as for me it's in the technical details not in the "performance".  So I cannot judge technical details as well in poomsae I do not know.  It doesn't make me closed minded, just that as a personal preference I prefer watching forms I know (and hence with a limited amount of cash, I choose those).



I flattery myself that I can tell if a technique is executed cleanly and powerfully regardless of knowing if it's the correct move for that form. I wouldn't score such a competition, but I'd certainly attend. And enjoy the forms, even (maybe especially...) the ones I don't know.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> No they do not.  What I have an open mind about food but I refuse to eat brussel sprouts nor will I order any dinner that has brussel sprouts in it.  Why, because I have tasted brussel sprouts and do not like the taste.  Does this make me closed minded?
> 
> He has been to enough tournaments where Palgwe or other forms are allowed to be used and has developed a distaste for how they are ran.  So he just avoids those types of tournaments.  He is open minded, he just does not like certain things based on what he experienced in the past.



Nobody is asking him to eat (learn/practice) the brussel sprouts (forms).

I'm also willing to bet that you would still eat in a restaurant that serves brussel sprouts. Refusing to eat (compete with) the brussel sprouts (forms) is entirely reasonable. Refusing to go to a restaurant (tournament) simply because they allow brussel sprouts (Palgwe forms) is, I think, close minded.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I believe he said that they are obsolete and rendered useless outside of the school or organization that you might be with.  While they may still be in use in some open tournaments, they are still obsolete forms when it comes to KKW standards.



And, as I said, there is life (and Tae Kwon Do) outside the narrow scope of the Kukkiwon. And knowledge is NEVER obsolete.



miguksaram said:


> This is no different than for me to go out and learning pascal programming.  While it may be worth learning, it is not widely used nor does it help as much as opposed to learning 'C' language.



Oh ick. C++ and Javascript...




miguksaram said:


> How is he denying karate's influence?  Just because you don't practice 'karate' life forms you deny the roots?  Are you saying a doctor not using leeches is denying the influence of mid-evil development of medicine? Modern practice, modern development of poomsae.



Leeches are still used. So are maggots. So are Palgwes. 

Of course, advances in medical science reflect new discoverys and new technologies. The same cannot reasonably be said of a set of forms. Especially when both sets were developed by much the same people, and use the same technical standards. The only difference, fundamentally, is the order in which techniques are performed.



miguksaram said:


> I notice you have a TSD logo.  I will assume you practice all chuan'fa and Shotokan forms as well as your TSD forms so not to deny it roots?



It's a Moo Duk Kwan logo. I personally practice the Kicho, Palgwe, Taegeuk, Yudanja and Chang Hon forms. I'd certainly not be opposed to learning others.



miguksaram said:


> They may be accepted, but how many people utilize them?  Being a part of NASKA and AKA I have rarely seen Palgwe forms used in open tournaments.  However, I do see Gaebaek and Koryo done a lot.



So since they're not as common they're not worth learning? I don't think you'll ever convince me of that.


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## Indie12 (Sep 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> you do know that the kkw and wtf stopped doing palgwe forms a LONG time ago, don't you?



Mainly ITF that does them now!


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## msmitht (Sep 17, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> msmitht said:
> 
> 
> > *Just for any other Readers, to clarify that the Underlined and Not Bold Text is his Reply, and not my Reply Well, what you Meant and Said are evidently a touch different. Fair enough;You do realise im quoting You...
> ...


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## Cyriacus (Sep 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Cyriacus said:
> 
> 
> > you do realize that you are misunderstanding me. When I say "they are not part of kkw taekwondo anymore" the "they" I am referring to is the PALGWE forms! I enjoy this conversation but am finding it a bit annoyingg that I have to keep repeating myself.Now run along and read something else...
> ...


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> you do realize that you are misunderstanding me. When I say "they are not part of kkw taekwondo anymore" the "they" I am referring to is the PALGWE forms! I enjoy this conversation but am finding it a bit annoyingg that I have to keep repeating myself.



"You do realise" that "not part of" and "not required" are not the same thing, don't you?
The Palgwe forms were developed by the Kukkiwon and will always be a part of Kukki Tae Kwon do, even if not a required part.

(Condescending insult deleted.)


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## Cyriacus (Sep 17, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> "You do realise" that "not part of" and "not required" are not the same thing, don't you?
> The Palgwe forms were developed by the Kukkiwon and will always be a part of Kukki Tae Kwon do, even if not a required part.
> 
> (Condescending insult deleted.)


I Literally just Alt+Tabbed out of a Program I was running to say Exactly the Same thing.


In Addition, "*They are not part of Kukkiwon TKD anymore."
*He said this IMMEDIATELY after, "*If your school still does them then so be it."

*Which Obviously reads as, the Schools not being a part of KKW TKD anymore.
I suppose My point, is that even if his Intentions were Otherwise, it was Communicated Poorly.

*To clarify, im not saying this part to you, Dirty Dog;
Repeat yourself though you will - We all get that youre trying to say that what you were saying is different to how it was Read.
I realise this.
Im saying, that this could have been Avoided.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2011)

Indie12 said:


> Mainly ITF that does them now!



Actually, no. The ITF (and it's offshoots) generally practice the Chang Hon Tul.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 17, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> In Addition, "*They are not part of Kukkiwon TKD anymore."
> *He said this IMMEDIATELY after, "*If your school still does them then so be it."
> 
> *Which Obviously reads as, the Schools not being a part of KKW TKD anymore.


Your logic is flawed.  For example, pushups are not part of Kukkiwon TKD, but many schools do them. So long as the school does the Kukkiwon minimum curriculum, I would say they are Kukkiwon TKD.


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## msmitht (Sep 17, 2011)

You guys know perfectly well what i meant and re arranging words or pointing out my flawed grammer just makes you guys look petty. I am done with this post and with you. ignored...ignored...ignored! now I feel a lot better


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## NSRTKD (Sep 17, 2011)

Well I am thoroughly confused. Can someone help me out with a ridiculous task...Which forms are palgwe and which are Chang hon tul, and which are whatever-the-other-one is?? If there's a link, tp be simple, i would greatly appreciate it.Our style is kind of a blend of two, in some ways, so I'm wondering which forms fall into which category. Sorry to be totally clueless and obnoxious!


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## Cyriacus (Sep 17, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Your logic is flawed.  For example, pushups are not part of Kukkiwon TKD, but many schools do them. So long as the school does the Kukkiwon minimum curriculum, I would say they are Kukkiwon TKD.


I Assume you Quoted Me to Reply to Him 




msmitht said:


> You guys know perfectly well what i meant and re arranging words or pointing out my flawed grammer just makes you guys look petty. I am done with this post and with you. ignored...ignored...ignored! now I feel a lot better


Ignore us then.
But it doesnt change the fact that only YOU KNEW what YOU meant to say. If you want to blame us for taking you seriously, and assuming you meant everything you said, and that we are the idiots for not reading your Sentences in a different order to how YOU typed them, so be it.

I never Re-Arranged ANY of your Words. *I ONLY Quoted YOU Directly.
*And when so many People come to the same Conclusion, well, im glad you think its a big Conspiracy to make ourselves all Petty. 
Have Fun with that.

Enough Said.


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## msmitht (Sep 17, 2011)

The tul are the original hyung (chong gi, dan gun, do san, won yo, yul gook, etc) created for itf tkd. The palgwe, I believe, were created for the wtf before the taeguek poomsae. Not too sure about the history of palgwe except that in the 80's they were removed from the required curriculum for advancement in kukkiwon tkd.Many old school gm's kept teaching them and passed the tradition on which is why you may still see them at tourneys. They are not allowed in competition at official usat/wtf sanctioned events(state championship, national qualifiers, nationals and international events).


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## msmitht (Sep 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> No, THEY are not. I have been to 3 master instructor courses (2 here, 1 in korea) and 4 poomsae seminars put on by the kukkiwon. Not once did we talk about or practice the Palgwe forms. If your school still does THEM then so be it. THEY are not part of Kukkiwon TKD anymore.


Now then, let's look at the whole post that those I have now "ignored" keep quoting. "If your school still does them then so be it". The word "them" was a reference towards the palgwe forms. "They are not part of kukkiwon tkd anymore". The first word, "they", was a reference to "them" which was in reference to the palgwe forms set.


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## NSRTKD (Sep 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> The tul are the original hyung (chong gi, dan gun, do san, won yo, yul gook, etc) created for itf tkd. The palgwe, I believe, were created for the wtf before the taeguek poomsae. Not too sure about the history of palgwe except that in the 80's they were removed from the required curriculum for advancement in kukkiwon tkd.Many old school gm's kept teaching them and passed the tradition on which is why you may still see them at tourneys. They are not allowed in competition at official usat/wtf sanctioned events(state championship, national qualifiers, nationals and international events).



Can you give me any names of the palgwe? I ask because our style follows some ITF patterns and some WTF patterns, and I think something different, but I'm not sure if "palgwe" fits...


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## msmitht (Sep 17, 2011)

naomisarah said:


> Can you give me any names of the palgwe? I ask because our style follows some ITF patterns and some WTF patterns, and I think something different, but I'm not sure if "palgwe" fits...


Palgwe 1-8. I do not believe that they have individual names. WTF pattern names are Taeguek 1-8 plus korryo, geumgang, taebaek, pyongwon, shipjin, jitae, cheonkwon, hansoo and illyo.
smoe instructors do the older, Japanese /Okinawan style (TSD) forms like bassai, kusanku(Kanku dai) and nahanchi(Tekki)


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## Archtkd (Sep 18, 2011)

naomisarah said:


> Well I am thoroughly confused. Can someone help me out with a ridiculous task...Which forms are palgwe and which are Chang hon tul, and which are whatever-the-other-one is?? If there's a link, tp be simple, i would greatly appreciate it.Our style is kind of a blend of two, in some ways, so I'm wondering which forms fall into which category. Sorry to be totally clueless and obnoxious!



Why don't you simply ask your teacher what forms he/she is teaching you?


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## Archtkd (Sep 18, 2011)

msmitht said:


> The tul are the original hyung (chong gi, dan gun, do san, won yo, yul gook, etc) created for itf tkd. The palgwe, I believe, were created for the wtf before the taeguek poomsae. Not too sure about the history of palgwe except that in the 80's they were removed from the required curriculum for advancement in kukkiwon tkd.Many old school gm's kept teaching them and passed the tradition on which is why you may still see them at tourneys. They are not allowed in competition at official usat/wtf sanctioned events(state championship, national qualifiers, nationals and international events).


Master Miles has written a very good history of this, which he once posted on MT.


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## miguksaram (Sep 19, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Logical Contradiction in Reasoning.
> And im full well aware thats being either Picky or Observant, depending on your Viewpoint
> 
> Just My Contribution, to Extending this Derailment ​



I believe when he said they are not part of KKW anymore he was referring to the forms not the school.  The Palgwe forms are no longer part of KKW standards.


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## miguksaram (Sep 19, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Nobody is asking him to eat (learn/practice) the brussel sprouts (forms).
> 
> I'm also willing to bet that you would still eat in a restaurant that serves brussel sprouts. Refusing to eat (compete with) the brussel sprouts (forms) is entirely reasonable. Refusing to go to a restaurant (tournament) simply because they allow brussel sprouts (Palgwe forms) is, I think, close minded.


Why?  What if I don't like the restaurant?  Does it still make me closed minded?  I really do not like going to MAKA tournaments, which are similar to what we do.  However, all the ones that I have been to have been poorly ran, mismanaged, and very biased to MAKA members, even though they claim to be open to all styles and orgs.  So if I see a tournament whose top sanctioning is MAKA.  I will not go, because I know their rules are not fair, and the way they run is bad.  I have had a enough experience to learn to avoid it.  This doesn't make me closed minded.  Just practical on where I will spend my time and money.


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## miguksaram (Sep 19, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> And, as I said, there is life (and Tae Kwon Do) outside the narrow scope of the Kukkiwon. And knowledge is NEVER obsolete.


And as we have already hashed a gazillion times...we know.  However, that is not the issue here.  The issue is that Palgwes are no longer utilized by the KKW standards and as such obsolete.  You can learn how to fix a Model T ford and even drive around in it. Sure looks cool, and having that knowledge is nice, but you will not be a certified mechanic if that is the standard you are trying to base your car knowledge on.



> It's a Moo Duk Kwan logo. I personally practice the Kicho, Palgwe, Taegeuk, Yudanja and Chang Hon forms. I'd certainly not be opposed to learning others.


Your not opposed, but you do not know them.  Isn't this denying the roots of your art?  Should you not go out of your way to learn those forms since they are root forms to your art?  After all you are claiming that since he does not believe in doing Palgwe forms, he is denying TKD's Japanese roots. 



> So since they're not as common they're not worth learning? I don't think you'll ever convince me of that.


Never said they are not worth learning.  Just said they are obsolete.  Are they practical to learn, my personal opinion, no.  They will not help me advance in the KKW standards to achieve my next ranking.  Some people will argue that learning any poomsae is a waste because it has no "real life" combative training.  However, enjoy learning them...eventually I will relearn Palgwe forms..why...because I enjoy doing forms forms.  Just like I enjoy learning about Korean history which really has no relevance in my life outside of my connection with my wife and Korean MA.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 19, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I believe when he said they are not part of KKW anymore he was referring to the forms not the school.  The Palgwe forms are no longer part of KKW standards.



Ill say it again.

I Know.

I was saying, that he Phrased it Poorly. And should take into Account how it would Read, without knowing what he Meant to say.


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## msmitht (Sep 19, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ill say it again.I Know.I was saying, that he Phrased it Poorly. And should take into Account how it would Read, without knowing what he Meant to say.


You should never start a sentance with "and"....Just being picky


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## Cyriacus (Sep 19, 2011)

msmitht said:


> You should never start a sentance with "and"....Just being picky



Do You Feel Better?


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## miguksaram (Sep 19, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ill say it again.
> 
> I Know.
> 
> I was saying, that he Phrased it Poorly. And should take into Account how it would Read, without knowing what he Meant to say.



Sorry, I replied to your quote prior to reading the history and seeing that all of this was cleared up.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 19, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Your not opposed, but you do not know them. Isn't this denying the roots of your art? Should you not go out of your way to learn those forms since they are root forms to your art? After all you are claiming that since he does not believe in doing Palgwe forms, he is denying TKD's Japanese roots.



So you don't see a difference between "I've not had the opportunity to learn them yet" and "Bah! I'd never bother with that!"




miguksaram said:


> Never said they are not worth learning. Just said they are obsolete. Are they practical to learn, my personal opinion, no. They will not help me advance in the KKW standards to achieve my next ranking. Some people will argue that learning any poomsae is a waste because it has no "real life" combative training. However, enjoy learning them...eventually I will relearn Palgwe forms..why...because I enjoy doing forms forms. Just like I enjoy learning about Korean history which really has no relevance in my life outside of my connection with my wife and Korean MA.



Well, if your interest is focused on merit badges, that's an entirely different issue. I learn because it's fun and interesting. Whether or not it's directly related to rankings is irrelevent.


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## msmitht (Sep 19, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you don't see a difference between "I've not had the opportunity to learn them yet" and "Bah! I'd never bother with that!"
> 
> 
> Well, if your interest is focused on merit badges, that's an entirely different issue. I learn because it's fun and interesting. Whether or not it's directly related to rankings is irrelevent.


I actually know them, i just do not teach them as they are no longer required. I personally find the pyong-an and the japanese Heinan kata set better for training.


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## msmitht (Sep 19, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Do You Feel Better?


Absolutely


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## puunui (Sep 19, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> The Palgwe forms were developed by the Kukkiwon and will always be a part of Kukki Tae Kwon do, even if not a required part.



Actually the Palgwae poomsae were developed by the KTA in 1967, before the Kukkiwon was built in 1972. Also, the Palgwae poomsae are no longer a part of Kukki Taekwondo, just like the pyongahn hyung are no longer part of Kukki Taekwondo. You can still practice those forms and even teach them in your dojang if you wish to supplement your students' knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they are a part of Kukki Taekwondo, which I believe is the point that Master Smith is trying to make. The Kukkiwon decides what is and isn't part of Kukki Taekwondo, not individual practitioners with their own opinions.


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## msmitht (Sep 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> Actually the Palgwae poomsae were developed by the KTA in 1967, before the Kukkiwon was built in 1972. Also, the Palgwae poomsae are no longer a part of Kukki Taekwondo, just like the pyongahn hyung are no longer part of Kukki Taekwondo. You can still practice those forms and even teach them in your dojang if you wish to supplement your students' knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they are a part of Kukki Taekwondo, which I believe is the point that Master Smith is trying to make. The Kukkiwon decides what is and isn't part of Kukki Taekwondo, not individual practitioners with their own opinions.


Thank you. I forgot that it was the KTA that developed them. You said it much better than I did.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 19, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Sorry, I replied to your quote prior to reading the history and seeing that all of this was cleared up.



Presumably Cleared Up, Several Pages Ago 




msmitht said:


> Absolutely



Nominal.


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## NSRTKD (Sep 19, 2011)

MT should make a forum for those trying to just get the last word in.Oh wait, we have one. LPT.  jk


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## Cyriacus (Sep 19, 2011)

naomisarah said:


> MT should make a forum for those trying to just get the last word in.Oh wait, we have one. LPT.  jk



Well, if at any point the actual Discussion stopped, then such a Forum would be useful. I assume however, that the Conversation has now no need to Proceed


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## NSRTKD (Sep 19, 2011)

Just joking Cy, this thread has been incredibly educational and entertaining to read.


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## miguksaram (Sep 20, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you don't see a difference between "I've not had the opportunity to learn them yet" and "Bah! I'd never bother with that!"


But he has learned them before.  Opportunity?  With today's information highway there are always opportunity.



> Well, if your interest is focused on merit badges, that's an entirely different issue. I learn because it's fun and interesting. Whether or not it's directly related to rankings is irrelevent.


Merit badges?  Since when does focusing on material that is relevant for me to progress a merit badge?  Plus, did I not just state that I would like to relearn them because I enjoy doing forms?


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## miguksaram (Sep 20, 2011)

naomisarah said:


> Just joking Cy, this thread has been incredibly educational and entertaining to read.


Yes, tangents are the norm, but they do provide a nice mixture of education and entertainment.


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